# Hijacked board



## beachgrl (Nov 10, 2008)

Has anyone else noticed the change in this message board?  I have been a member for several years and it seems that the writers have taken over.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

I agree it seems that way, but if the reader-posters don't participate, we really have no one to blame but ourselves.  

ETA:  I personally have tried to convince the authors to step out of the Writer's Café and interact with the readers since the Café was opened.  I think it's nice that some of them are finally doing so.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't think I would call it hijacked...and writers are readers, too.

But if you're not seeing enough threads in the rest of the forum, start some!

Sent from my KFTHWA using Tapatalk HD


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

I wouldn't say hijacked, but the boards other than the writing related boards certainly are quiet.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

I agree that there seem to be more writers and fewer readers around. But since writers have always been envisioned as a key part of the board, I don't think it really counts as "hijacked." I try to do my little bit about starting threads and posting when I have something to say, and hopefully other readers will do so as well!


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## HappyGuy (Nov 3, 2008)

I was surprised at how little activity there was after Christmas. Things picked up a bit, but not nearly as much as past years.


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## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

This board and another message board (totally different message board) are the only two I visit.  Both have been quite inactive compared to the not too distant past.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Our Writer's Cafe has become very popular, and we welcome activity there as we would in any of our boards. So I wouldn't call it hijacked! 

Also, our "reader" posts are spread across twenty sub-boards, so the activity in any of those can seem sparse compared to the concentrated activity in the WC. 

We'll see a surge again when the new Kindle readers are announced, and I hope our upcoming Kindle accessory and book giveaways will be well-received by our members... and maybe attract a few new readers to our boards!


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Yup not much happening outside of the Writer's Cafe. I think there are some good reasons for that 

1) The new Kindle releases have not been anything revolutionary so there really hasn't been much to discuss
2) Kindles are pretty easy to use and have become easier with each itteration, so people don't need help from the internet all that much
3) There are boards that discuss e-readers, e-reader issues, publishing and the like in a great deal more depth. Anyone who wants to discuss something Kindle related that goes below the surface is not going to come here. 
4) People who want to discuss reading and books in general are going to go else where were there is a broader audience to discuss what they are reading with
5) This is a good place for independent writers to meet and discuss ebooks and publishing in general. THe site is easy to use, the owners/mods are welcoming, and there are non-writers who might buy their stuff.

I check in here but I post more frequently at another site. The folks here are nice but if I have a question, I'll ask elsewhere because I know that there are folks who are developing code and playing with their Kindles, and Kindles, in ways that most the people here are not. Even if the folks are here, you cannot discuss 90% of what is happening. 

(shrugs)

I like it here but it is more constrained.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

It occurs to me that Goodreads, and the increased integration of it in Kindles, might be the enemy of increased reader participation here. Just showing off my incredible talent for stating the obvious....


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Just to clarify MPC's somewhat cryptic comment, yes, things that are against Amazon's TOS are not allowed to be discussed here.  If that's what you want to discuss, you will have to go elsewhere.  But we have substantive discussions in Let's Talk Kindle, Fire Talk and Tips, Tricks and Troubleshooting about how to get the most out of your Kindle within Amazon's TOS.

Just sayin'.


Betsy


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

It has been a bit more quiet, hasn't it. We need some new rumors of kindle releases.  

One thing though that I do notice is that conversations that would be nice for other to participate in, happens in the writers cafe. I mean conversations nothing to do with writing. I know the mods sometimes move them to the other boards, but it seems like they then go silent, like many authors don't even want to speak about anything outside the WC. Or don't want to speak to anyone other than authors. It just makes the rest of us feel a bit left out so to speak.


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## stevene9 (Nov 9, 2008)

I look at myself as an example. I would say that I am a very modest poster, not silent but not particularly active either. Back when the kindle was new (2008-2009) I had a lot to say. It was a new experience, everyone was learning different things, and we all shared the info. How many times can I say I love my kindle. There is more to post when a new model is about to come out, or has just come out. Sometimes there is more to post if there is a screwed-up update, or some major problem. I started participating about a year ago in the Book Corner for my favorite genre, Sci Fi, but once you've listed your favorite books for the fifth time, that becomes boring too. I do read the Book Corner more than I post to see if new posters have new book suggestions, and sometimes they do.

To be honest I am locked into the kindle in my own mind, I have over 1400 read kindle books. I am not overly interested in learning about other ereaders, as I know I'm not changing. Between Prime and Whispernet, I am an Amazon customer for life. I have a spare bedroom for Jeff Bezos anytime he wants to stop over. I love this site, and I give enormous credit to Harvey, Ann and Betsy. We do not discuss topics such as jailbreaking the kindle, so that takes away a constant volume.

I like seeing new sci fi books by our authors in The Book Bazaar, but somehow I don't find it very user friendly. That may just be me though. Does anyone have any ideas as to how to make this better?

Steve


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## VictoriaP (Mar 1, 2009)

I suspect a bit of the "left out" feeling Atunah mentions is also reflected in attitudes by some writers on this board. On another ereader forum I frequent, you may not realize for quite some time that the author you are conversing with is an author at all--their love for READING comes through first, or their enthusiasm for devices. Their chosen pursuit of a career in writing isn't typically something they loudly proclaim at every opportunity. 

Here, for the last several years, it's often felt like a hard sell. I turned off signatures long ago for that reason, and I've never felt the need to do so on any other forum I spend time in. Even many user names & avatars reflect their users' desire to put into play their social media marketing lessons; plenty of writers over there have more random types of names and quirky avatars--they blend in, with perhaps just a simple link in their signature that leads to their page on Amazon. On KB, they'll use their full names or pseudonyms and either formal or informal headshots or their latest book cover for an avatar pic. 

Just to test this, I looked at a random thread in the Book Corner just now, and without reading replies--just looking at avatars and names, easily picked out the likely authors in the bunch. Turned on signatures and went back--I'd missed only one. Nearly every reply was from an author. And with signatures on, all those book cover graphic links made the thread absolutely unreadable. (I can only imagine what a newcomer to the forum thinks about being pounded by such advertising with every post they try to read, since signatures are by default turned on.)

Of course, not all authors here are this way, but enough of them are to be noticeable. For those who aren't big on feeling like we're constantly being "sold" on something (or in the case of some book discussions I've followed, quite obviously being used for market research), seeing that behavior everywhere we look is enough to make us want to spread our wings and look elsewhere for companions who love books.

And to be fair to the authors--there's nothing inherently wrong with this stuff. It does mean that KB is attracting and keeping a different audience than it used to.

I love this place as I spent so much time here in the early years, but I too find it less appealing than I did before. And I say this as someone who also writes, but has always come here for discussions as a reader, accessories enabler, & tech geek.


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## beachgrl (Nov 10, 2008)

You have all stated my feelings better than I can.  Thank you. I see I am not alone in feeling a loss here.  I too joined in 2008 when I bought my first of many Kindles.  This was my go to site for advice, accessories, and news about Kindles.  Maybe after so many years, I too no longer need the assistance of other owners. However, I do love this message board and thank you to the Mods who volunteer their time to keep it safe.


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## musclehead (Dec 29, 2010)

Here's a tip: you can view only the boards you want to view. I use this link to read kboards: www.kboards.com/index.php?action=unread;all;boards=1,2,9 This shows me only my unread posts in three sub-boards:
Let's Talk Kindle
Tips, Tricks, and Troubleshooting
The Book Corner
You can change the URL to include any boards you like to read - just add the number of the board to the end of the URL.

As to other people not posting much, I think it has to do with too much modding. The mods here are quick to squelch not only discussions of things that are against the TOS, but also anything that expresses an opinion or offers a correction. I have been cuffed across the mouth enough that I no longer want to post much. My position isn't unwarranted, either. I am a member of several other boards with far less modding, and the discussions are always lively and active.

Like VictoriaP, I turned off signatures and avatars almost immediately upon joining. It was just impossible to wade through a discussion with all that extra stuff in the way. If you still have sigs and avatars turned on, try turning them off for a week. You'll enjoy the board much more.

Another tip I discovered recently is hiding all the header information. The header (all the stuff before the discussion) can take up half the screen. Now I use Adblock Plus to hide the header. Again, it just makes the board that much easier to view/navigate/use.


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

VictoriaP said:


> I suspect a bit of the "left out" feeling Atunah mentions is also reflected in attitudes by some writers on this board. On another ereader forum I frequent, you may not realize for quite some time that the author you are conversing with is an author at all--their love for READING comes through first, or their enthusiasm for devices. Their chosen pursuit of a career in writing isn't typically something they loudly proclaim at every opportunity.
> 
> Here, for the last several years, it's often felt like a hard sell. I turned off signatures long ago for that reason, and I've never felt the need to do so on any other forum I spend time in. Even many user names & avatars reflect their users' desire to put into play their social media marketing lessons; plenty of writers over there have more random types of names and quirky avatars--they blend in, with perhaps just a simple link in their signature that leads to their page on Amazon. On KB, they'll use their full names or pseudonyms and either formal or informal headshots or their latest book cover for an avatar pic.
> 
> ...


This. 1,000,000,000 times THIS.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Atunah said:


> It has been a bit more quiet, hasn't it. We need some new rumors of kindle releases.
> 
> One thing though that I do notice is that conversations that would be nice for other to participate in, happens in the writers cafe. I mean conversations nothing to do with writing. I know the mods sometimes move them to the other boards, but it seems like they then go silent, like many authors don't even want to speak about anything outside the WC. Or don't want to speak to anyone other than authors. It just makes the rest of us feel a bit left out so to speak.


I tend to not post in the BC because the last time I started a thread and it was about a big author not a single reader posted. So it was the readers that snubbed me. So it works both ways. I won't comment farther on this publicly.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

cinisajoy said:


> I tend to not post in the BC because the last time I started a thread and it was about a big author not a single reader posted. So it was the readers that snubbed me. So it works both ways. I won't comment farther on this publicly.


You weren't 'snubbed', maybe you just didn't happen to post about a book that others had read and/or liked and/or even heard of. I start a lot of threads that don't get many replies. No big deal. Some topics just don't strike a chord with folks. Other topics do.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> You weren't 'snubbed', maybe you just didn't happen to post about a book that others had read and/or liked and/or even heard of. I start a lot of threads that don't get many replies. No big deal. Some topics just don't strike a chord with folks. Other topics do.


I asked a question about Michael Chricton.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

cinisajoy said:


> I asked a question about Michael Chricton.


Sorry, I didn't recognize the turn around on the spelling of Michael Crichton so I didn't open your post. I have Pirate Latitude in my TBR pile and will let you know what I think when I get around to reading it.

If I stopped posting because people didn't respond to my posts, I would probably never post to the Café where I am regularly ignored, *shrug*. It happens.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

crebel said:


> Sorry, I didn't recognize the turn around on the spelling of Michael Crichton so I didn't open your post. I have Pirate Latitude in my TBR pile and will let you know what I think when I get around to reading it.
> 
> If I stopped posting because people didn't respond to my posts, I would probably never post to the Café where I am regularly ignored, *shrug*. It happens.


 Let me know if you think he was a Star Trek fan.


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## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

I miss the days of excitement over Kindle watches and the accompanying accessories.   I agree this place doesn't seem nearly as lively as it once was, with the exception of WC, and WC feels slightly clique-ish at times. I think some readers try to gravitate toward WC because it's so active, but we just don't quite feel like we fit in. So I lurk far more than I post now.

Maybe Amazon will soon give us a new distinctly different Kindle that will send KB in a flurry again. I need someone to enable me into another impulse buy.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

We're always happy to enable another Kindle purchase!  In fact, we can start now!  Do you have a backup Kindle?  A backup Kindle is always a good thing.  Or a baby K so you can lend good friends books? 

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> We're always happy to enable another Kindle purchase! In fact, we can start now! Do you have a backup Kindle? A backup Kindle is always a good thing. Or a baby K so you can lend good friends books?
> 
> Betsy


A backup kindle is NECESSARY!  Case on point:

Yesterday I took my PW'13 to work as usual. It's always in my purse. Got there before starting time 'cause Ed had to get to his job earlier. So I pulled out my K to read before I had to 'clock in'.

Then it was time to open so I put it on the cabinet right next to my purse. And worked all day. No time to pick it up again. End of day arrives.

Do you know I didn't pick up the Kindle to put in my purse to take home?    Didn't realize it until I _got_ home, of course.

Thank goodness for my basic kindle that I had at home. 

*If you haven't got a spare, you should get one!     *


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## Brownskins (Nov 18, 2011)

I have been so enabled by this board, that I have more than enough back-ups of back-ups... but I do like the fact that everytime I start a new book, I can pick up another Kindle with it's own Oberon. So it always feels like I have in my hands a "new book" when I take my train ride. There is this person I see daily on the train that always I always see reading a literally "new" physical paperback - mostly literary indies (seems like a fast reader). I always glance at the cover, and I feel kind of good that I am also starting a new novel in a "new" (meaning, not the last one used) Oberon and Kindle (whichever it is that I am using at that time).

Regarding the board, there is only so much to talk about when it comes to the devices - praises, complaints, tips, tricks, advice, enabling.

Personally, I really enjoy the shared reviews and perspectives in the Book Corner. I enjoy hearing from both writers and readers in that board. I envision the BC to be as active as the Writers Café... that would be awesome. Not discounting of course the sporadic excitement that comes in the other sections whenever a new round of devices, apps, freebies, accessory craze, praises, complaints, tips, tricks, advice, enabling takes place.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

crebel said:


> ETA: I personally have tried to convince the authors to step out of the Writer's Café and interact with the readers since the Café was opened. I think it's nice that some of them are finally doing so.


A lot of the writers such as myself are trying to be polite and stay out of the readers' way in the forums and not violate the spirit of the other forums. Being an author means you are a writer who makes a living selling your books. That means that being a writer is only half the job description; the other half is that of marketeer desperately trying to get people to buy your books. So having a bunch of starving writers [buy my book!] half-posting and half-selling in all their posts [buy my book] would get pretty tiresome before too long. [buy my book]   

The success and energy behind Writer's Café is the result of perfect synergy and timing. I think perhaps the better name would have been _Writer's Saloon_, as it has become the place where we (the writers) can all come together, compare notes, drown our sorrows when things aren't going right, congratulate those who have finally achieved success, learn and find new ways to sell our books so we can sell enough to pay the bills, and find hope and inspiration while trying to get our careers off the ground. Just as importantly, Writer's Café doesn't have any political, business, or hidden agenda behind it. There is no one trying to throw their weight around or bask in their own self-importance or force their own point of view. There is a lot of mutual support to be had there. Because of this, writers have been flocking to it the moment they hear about it. (I heard about it via Hugh Howey, author of _Wool_ [buy _his_ book! ].) So, the writers try to maintain a civil appearance and stay within the walls of their zoo hoping not to offend the neighbors with the smell, occasionally glancing over the walls at the myriad readers out there gently grazing in the fields of books wondering how to get them buying their books without coming across as a rabid hyena.

Self-publishing-while it has been around for centuries-is just now getting off the ground as a viable industry now. New technologies and the availability of reliable distribution has revolutionized self-publishing. Writers need a place where they can exchange their experiences and get help dealing with the new paradigm, and Writer's Café popped up at exactly the right moment and exactly in the right place to fill that need for the writers.

Much of what the writers have to say there doesn't quite support the charter of the Kboards forum. So we try to keep our chatter caged in the Café so as not to spoil it for the other participants on Kboards.

For readers who are curious about what it is like to be a self-publishing writer or thinking about writing their own book, I would heartily encourage you to pull on your rubber boots and wade into the Writer's Café! There is a lot of useful information there to glean from. The writers there are highly accessible-there are a number of authors who could count as "Big Name" authors who I think you would be surprised how much they are just regular people.

How to get the writers out of their cages at the Writer's Zoo- Er, tables at the Writer's Café? Well, the surest way is to write something about their book. Sure as flies on ••••, they'll come buzzing in as soon as they hear about it! Also, if you posted something that you feel pertains to that writer, send them a note inviting them to take a look or to comment. Otherwise, we'll all just sit there looking longingly at all those readers wishing, just wishing, that they'll bu- etc....


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## Eltanin Publishing (Mar 24, 2011)

musclehead said:


> Here's a tip: you can view only the boards you want to view. I use this link to read kboards: www.kboards.com/index.php?action=unread;all;boards=1,2,9 This shows me only my unread posts in three sub-boards:
> Let's Talk Kindle
> Tips, Tricks, and Troubleshooting
> The Book Corner
> You can change the URL to include any boards you like to read - just add the number of the board to the end of the URL.


That's interesting. Even before I got to your post, I was thinking it might be useful if there was a link that was essentially, "Show unread posts since last visit - that are NOT in the Writer's Cafe".


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

Eltanin Publishing said:


> That's interesting. Even before I got to your post, I was thinking it might be useful if there was a link that was essentially, "Show unread posts since last visit - that are NOT in the Writer's Cafe".


That's how I access the board now as well. (Although mine shows a few more boards)


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

WDR said:


> A lot of the writers such as myself are trying to be polite and stay out of the readers' way in the forums and not violate the spirit of the other forums. Being an author means you are a writer who makes a living selling your books. That means that being a writer is only half the job description; the other half is that of marketeer desperately trying to get people to buy your books. So having a bunch of starving writers [buy my book!] half-posting and half-selling in all their posts [buy my book] would get pretty tiresome before too long. [buy my book]
> 
> The success and energy behind Writer's Café is the result of perfect synergy and timing. I think perhaps the better name would have been _Writer's Saloon_, as it has become the place where we (the writers) can all come together, compare notes, drown our sorrows when things aren't going right, congratulate those who have finally achieved success, learn and find new ways to sell our books so we can sell enough to pay the bills, and find hope and inspiration while trying to get our careers off the ground. Just as importantly, Writer's Café doesn't have any political, business, or hidden agenda behind it. There is no one trying to throw their weight around or bask in their own self-importance or force their own point of view. There is a lot of mutual support to be had there. Because of this, writers have been flocking to it the moment they hear about it. (I heard about it via Hugh Howey, author of _Wool_ [buy _his_ book! ].) So, the writers try to maintain a civil appearance and stay within the walls of their zoo hoping not to offend the neighbors with the smell, occasionally glancing over the walls at the myriad readers out there gently grazing in the fields of books wondering how to get them buying their books without coming across as a rabid hyena.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Doctors, nurses, teachers, waiters, and most other professions I know can have discussions that don't revolve around them and their work. They don't have to find ways to work mentions of their job into every single conversation. Why can't the authors come out and post about their dogs, or their kitchenaide mixers, or any of the other gazillion things that we talk about on the other boards.


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## musclehead (Dec 29, 2010)

Eltanin Publishing said:


> That's interesting. Even before I got to your post, I was thinking it might be useful if there was a link that was essentially, "Show unread posts since last visit - that are NOT in the Writer's Cafe".


Sweet! Glad to help.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

WDR said:


> A lot of the writers such as myself are trying to be polite and stay out of the readers' way in the forums and not violate the spirit of the other forums. Being an author means you are a writer who makes a living selling your books. That means that being a writer is only half the job description; the other half is that of marketeer desperately trying to get people to buy your books. So having a bunch of starving writers [buy my book!] half-posting and half-selling in all their posts [buy my book] would get pretty tiresome before too long. [buy my book]


You're exactly right that having a lot of writers (from reading the WC, I have serious doubts whether the starvation rate of writers is any greater than the rest of our members) constantly bombard the rest of the forum with "half-posting and half-selling in all their posts [buy my book]" did get tiresome, which is why we have prohibited even mentioning one's books in passing in most of the rest of the forum. It seems that some authors (not you), think of the rest of the membership as nothing more than marks to be conned into buying their book. Which leads to negativity on behalf of the "reader-only" part of the membership.

But I also notice many posts in the Writers' Café where authors seem to be able to discuss, with each other, the latest books they've read, the movies they've seen, places they've been, favorite foods, etc, without working their books into the conversation. I know several writers in real life; they all seem able to discuss many topics without mentioning their books. I don't understand why it can't be done here.

Betsy


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

I think that it is easier to stay in the area you are comfortable with. 

It seems that a couple of times a year this topic of the boards slowing down and/or being dominated by the writers raises it's head. It seems to point to a few issues

1) Posters who wish that the boards are more active
2) Posters who resent the selling of books by other posters

I am going to assume, as someone who is not an author, that the authors on the board probably feel like they are unwelcome outside the Writers Cafe. I am assuming that many of the authors have formed friendships in that topic and it is natural for them to feel comfortable discussing movies, other books, and tea in that area. They know that they don't have to censor their posts so that they don't give the appearence of trying to sell their works and that they are among like minded individuals.

If you read posts that said "The signatures are too much, I don't like that they are selling their work, they are taking over the board" would you feel comfortable posting outside of your approved areas?

I am sure that there is an easy work around but it probably requires non-author posters to lighten up a bit and author posters to be a bit more sensitive to not selling their wares all the time.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

musclehead said:


> Here's a tip: you can view only the boards you want to view. I use this link to read kboards: www.kboards.com/index.php?action=unread;all;boards=1,2,9 This shows me only my unread posts in three sub-boards:
> Let's Talk Kindle
> Tips, Tricks, and Troubleshooting
> The Book Corner
> You can change the URL to include any boards you like to read - just add the number of the board to the end of the URL.


Sweet trick, Musclehead!

There are times I'd like to see what else is going on in Kboards that doesn't involve the Writer's Café.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

MamaProfCrash said:


> I am sure that there is an easy work around but it probably requires non-author posters to lighten up a bit and author posters to be a bit more sensitive to not selling their wares all the time.


One of the most important things any author has to keep in mind is that one of the best ways to build readership is to engage with the readers. And that doesn't necessarily mean to talk about their own books.

Offering reading suggestions, assisting people who may be having technical problems with an ebook-these are things that are helpful to the community in general. The more you give back to the community, the more you will receive.


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

Drew Smith said:


> Perhaps you might enjoy joining them?


You haven't been around long enough to know that I don't do well in the WC. It's best for all involved if I stay away from there. 

I've been a member here since before the Writer's Cafe existed and mingled with the writers who were here back then. They had no problem posting on ALL the boards. Even for quite awhile after it was created they still came out and talked to the readers... It was really developed as a place for them to talk about the writing aspects.. But they'd still post on other areas of the boards... And then it kind of morphed into what it is now. I think some of us old timers are just a bit sad that it's not like it used to be. Everyone "knew" everyone else and we'd often bump into each other in Accessories, or Not Quite Kindle...


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm actually confused and nervous now about where to post! I feel like I should apologize for posting outside WC.  I really am sorry- I didn't know.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Drew Smith said:


> Well I wondered if the same thing might be true about me posting here, so maybe we're a pair and a couple as my Grandpa used to say.
> 
> I also wonder if this voluntary author segregation is due in part to the rather hostile attitudes that authors often encounter at Goodreads. Over there even mentioning the fact that you write or publish is seen by many to be some sort of sales pitch instead of just another bit of personal information you are adding to let people get to know you.
> 
> ...


Speaking as a moderator, that sort of thing wouldn't be a problem. Members who have a problem with it may report it -- moderators will make a decision but we don't worry too much about casual mention -- unless it turns out you make such a casual mention in every post you make. It would be like me commenting in every post I make, apropos of nothing, really, that it's tax season and you should go get your taxes done!

We can figure out if you're a writer from your profile info and if we're interested in your books -- which, you know, we may be based on interesting discussion (go figure!  ) -- we'll check 'em out. If you push it at us, we'll, more likely, put you on a 'no buy' list.  So if, you followed up the above with, "hey, by the way, have you read it yet, would you like to?" THAT would be frowned upon outside the Bazaar. In fact, THAT would be frowned upon in the Cafe as well because the authors don't want to be pitched too, etiher, when they're trying to discuss something! Expect the post to be deleted.

But, consider a thread, say, here in the Book Corner, where a member asks for good sci fi. Author member Murgatroyd Humperdink pops in and says, "I love Asimov and Clark and also Humperdink". Yeah, not cool. That post would be edited to remove your recommendation of your own book. As would a post like "I love Asimov and Clark and I write sci fi too, see my signature." The reaction we non author members have is, "You had me at Asimov and Clark, but lost me, forever, at the self promo." So it's also counter productive. 

EVEN worse, in the eyes of our members if the author member tries to imply that they are NOT really M Humperdink nor do they know him at all, they just really like his book. Members suss out such subterfuge and report it to the mod team; we have ways of checking. And, frankly, even if you're NOT M Humperdink, if every single post is promoting HIS work, we're going to delete them all except for the one allowed as a thread in the Book Bazaar and treat you as his promoter.

As to signatures -- they are ALLOWED by kboards. Encouraged, even. There are size limits in place -- for ALL members, not just authors -- and we urge members to report when they see a signature that seems to large. We'll help the folks to fix 'em. But, except for that, if you do not like to see them, then you'll just have to turn signatures off.

Remember, though, that just because there are a bunch of books in a signature, doesn't mean the poster is an author -- we have a READER signature tool available as well and a lot of our members use it to show off what they've been reading. And it's actually sparked conversations. I've several times seen a book I'd been considering in a signature and asked the member what they thought of it with an idea to deciding whether to buy.

I'll also note that it is true as well that we've had non author members hanging out in the Cafe who have picked on the authors there for one reason or another. We frown on that as well. If you don't want to listen to the authors talk about the issues surrounding writing and publishing, then don't go there. We started the board because authors came here and, though having great conversations about pretty much anything, they did also want to talk about writing and publishing and such. And we didn't want to lose them so we created the Bazaar where they could promote their work without being obnoxious in discussion threads, and then the Cafe where they could have discussions on topics not of general interest related to writing/publishing. We've tried to make it a 'safe place' because we know there are other areas where they're not even remotely welcome.

OTOH, we also urge our author members to realize that it's not a closed board but COMPLETELY PUBLIC so if you're an author in the mood to grouse about readers/reviewers either specifically or generally, it might not be the best place to do that. Because, besides ALL members here, _anyone_ can read it. In the WORLD!   One does not have to be a member to read posts here. And if you come across as a jerk, that's not going to win you the Internets!


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## BillSmithBooksDotCom (Nov 4, 2012)

I love Kboards and I think it has a lot to offer...it is what we all make of it. I would welcome a lot more involvement among readers in the traditional book sections of the site.

As a writer, I started to come to kboards primarily for the Writers' Corner because it was a thriving community for authors to discuss the craft and business of publishing. It has become an Internet watering hole because it is a welcoming, open community for authors to talk about all kinds of writerly subjects. For that, all of us wordslingers are very profoundly grateful.

However, I'm a big reader, too and I would welcome a lot more activity on all of the other sections from readers...the "gang of writers" has not deliberately taken over the site so much as we just kind of hang out over in the Writers' Corner...but we ALSO love to find out about great books, have passionate discussions about books, etc. 

The whole etiquette thing is difficult, everyone has their own idea of what is acceptable and what is crossing the line.

Personally, I try not to overly promote my books and I believe most dedicated authors know better than to be obnoxious with "buy my book" promos. Those kind of strong-arm tactics only turn off the people you are hoping will buy your books. I'd much rather contribute to the community in a meaningful way...and then, for the folks who find my comments helpful and who enjoy the genre I write in, hopefully they'll try some of my stories to see if it is their sort of thing.

On the other hand, I refuse to "hide" my identity -- I do feature my stories in my sig, my user name makes it clear I am an author...but I'm interested in contributing to the community and having interesting discussions, sharing great recommendations, etc. and I try to stay "on topic." After all, I am a reader and book fan as much as I am an author.

Fortunately, no one has ever flamed me for being over zealous

Kboards is a GREAT book community and I wish more readers would come here and engage and hang out. 

I would be deeply saddened if the book discussion sections developed the "anti-author thugs" you see patrolling and bullying on Amazon's boards and in some other communities -- "YOU can't EVER mention your books no matter what, off to the 'indie author's ghetto' for you sir," where contributors are banned it seems for merely being writers even if they don't self-promo but simply dare to try to contribute to the community and sometimes the gangs even go out and "one-star to death" an author's book just to "teach them a lesson."


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Bottom Line Up Front: I don't think it should be hard for an author to discuss a TV show or movie without mentioning their book. I think that other people should be able to turn off signatures so that the advertisement in them is not visable. This really shouldn't be an issue. But I don't think it is the only reason why posting has dried up.

I don't care about the posting about writing in other topics, I can ignore stuff. OK, so it was annoying when someone popped into the Tea thread to mention what type of tea a character in their book drinks. That was a bit much. I think it would be cool if someone popped in and said they were doing some research for a book and needed info on tea.

I turned off the signatures ages ago. They distract me and they scream advertising. I like the avatars because they are small and say something about someone. The sig lines on this site are too busy. But that is my preference. You can turn them off so I don't see them as a problem. (shrugs)

Overall, I don't think that there is much of a problem. The board has morphed and people miss what it used to be. I moderated a Science Fiction board and there was a huge change when Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine ended. The shows were over, the people who posted on those shows drifted away, the tone of the conversation changed. It was sad but the new people were pretty cool and it was still a fun place to hang if you were watching Firefly or whatever other shows were on at the time.

I think the primary problem is that this site is focused on one device that is now commonly used and known about. People who need basic help can get it from a friend or family member. People who need more detailed help are likely to go to a different site, like the Amazon site. People who want to jailbreak, break DRM, and other things that would violate the Terms of Service are not going to come here. And those folks are going to post at the sites that discuss many e-readers and are more open to discussion of how to individualize your device.

I will point out that the sites I do post at that are more open regularly have people post that stripping DRM, jailbreaking, and the like is a violation of the TOS, might be illegal, and violates the warrenty. They do not allow people to post step by step directions on how to strip DRM (the issue that it is illegal in some countries but not others). But there is an actual oppertunity to discuss the issue without having people post how it is bad or violates the TOS on a regular basis

Accessories, well, people have plenty to plow through in that topic and have pretty much dressed their Kindles, so there is no real need to be posting there. 

Book clubs are hard. I have yet to have a book I would be interested suggested in the book club. But that is me. Finding a book that a group of people are interested in discussing is hard. And the books I have tried to read, I have not liked. I didn't feel comfortable posting that because so many people were gushing over the book. Why kill their buzz?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

BillSmithBooksDotCom said:


> I love Kboards and I think it has a lot to offer...it is what we all make of it. I would welcome a lot more involvement among readers in the traditional book sections of the site.
> 
> As a writer, I started to come to kboards primarily for the Writers' Corner because it was a thriving community for authors to discuss the craft and business of publishing. It has become an Internet watering hole because it is a welcoming, open community for authors to talk about all kinds of writerly subjects. For that, all of us wordslingers are very profoundly grateful.
> 
> ...


On the whole, I think you have exactly the right attitude and I ENCOURAGE you to join in -- or START! -- conversations outside the Cafe about books or whatever. It can be done without mentioning you're a writer. But, for example, someone who is sensitive to being 'sold to' _could_ interpret your post this way, "Oh, sure, he says he's not trying to promote, but there are close to 20 words that pertain -- 'author', 'writer', 'book', etc." I'm certain the same point could be made with many fewer references. Normally, people don't make such detailed analyses of posts, of course, but an impression is left even if they don't read word by word to figure out why.  (I realize this discussion is sort of _about_ being an author, so perhaps the frequency of references skews high.  )

As to the last bit . . . we do NOT allow bullying behavior on kboards . . . in any section of the board. I know authors have reported that they feel they've been the target of negative reviews/ratings because of what they post in the Cafe. We can't do much about that but encourage folks to report when posts _here_ cross a line. IF IT CAN BE PROVED that a member here launched a direct attack, that's a bannable offense. The problem is, the board is largely anonymous and, as I've mentioned, completely public. So, yeah, maybe if authors post outside the cafe, they'd get the same treatment, but I don't think it would be any more or any worse. We created the Bazaar and Cafe, as I said, specifically because we wanted to WELCOME authors and yet still protect our members from over-zealous promotion.

Look, we get it. You have a new book (generic you  ) and want to tell people. You're excited. We congratulate you! But, you know, you told us that already, so . . . o.k. (It can be almost as annoying as the folks who think their kids are perfect.  ) BUT, we don't want you to go away! We want to know when you write a new book -- but you really only need to tell us once.  And, you know, if you remind us once a week or so that it's out there, that's o.k. But no more than that or you'll annoy us. These are the reasons we started the Book Bazaar. And, whether you think it's useful or not, I know for a fact there are people who check out the bazaar daily for new and updated threads to see if there's a book they might like or some promo on a book they've been considering.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

MamaProfCrash said:


> I will point out that the sites I do post at that are more open regularly have people post that stripping DRM, jailbreaking, and the like is a violation of the TOS, might be illegal, and violates the warrenty. They do not allow people to post step by step directions on how to strip DRM (the issue that it is illegal in some countries but not others). But there is an actual oppertunity to discuss the issue without having people post how it is bad or violates the TOS on a regular basis


It is true that if people ask questions here about how to do such things we point out that it is against Amazon ToS and, as such, we are not interested in being the place that answers such questions. And we point them to sites where those questions can be answered. It's a position this board has taken from the beginning and is not likely to change.

I don't think we've stopped people from discussing the pros and cons if it is done with courtesy and respect. We did, in fact, have lots of discussions about loading alternate sleep pictures and 'fonts' when that was fairly easy to do without too much manipulation. (Full disclosure, I, personally felt like that should maybe not have been allowed just to be completely consistent, as it probably violated ToS, but it was a gray enough area that the mod team decided that we'd allow it.) We still get those questions now and then, but much less often as people are more happy with the current sleep pictures. 

I do recall threads early on -- like YEARS ago -- where the courtesy and respect was not apparent.  Some people who advocated, say, stripping DRM, were rude to those who said they were uncomfortable with it and, some people who thought it was wrong were downright nasty to people who said they had no difficulty with it in some cases. I was once told I was foolish not to strip DRM and back up all my books on my computer. Oh well. Point is: we're going to shut that sort of thing down -- but it has nothing to do with the topic and everything to do with the tone. 

Anyway, given board policy, it is true that when such questions arise, we do remind everyone about that policy. And we keep an eye on the thread. Usually, lately, when the subject comes up, the threads just don't go on for very long. The two sides have their say, agree to disagree, and go on to something else. I actually find it quite civilized.  But, then, we do like to think of ourselves as the _nice_ place on the Internet.


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## BillSmithBooksDotCom (Nov 4, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> On the whole, I think you have exactly the right attitude and I ENCOURAGE you to join in -- or START! -- conversations outside the Cafe about books or whatever. It can be done without mentioning you're a writer. But, for example, someone who is sensitive to being 'sold to' _could_ interpret your post this way, "Oh, sure, he says he's not trying to promote, but there are close to 20 words that pertain -- 'author', 'writer', 'book', etc." I'm certain the same point could be made with many fewer references. Normally, people don't make such detailed analyses of posts, of course, but an impression is left even if they don't read word by word to figure out why.  (I realize this discussion is sort of _about_ being an author, so perhaps the frequency of references skews high.  )
> 
> As to the last bit . . . we do NOT allow bullying behavior on kboards . . . in any section of the board. I know authors have reported that they feel they've been the target of negative reviews/ratings because of what they post in the Cafe. We can't do much about that but encourage folks to report when posts _here_ cross a line. IF IT CAN BE PROVED that a member here launched a direct attack, that's a bannable offense. The problem is, the board is largely anonymous and, as I've mentioned, completely public. So, yeah, maybe if authors post outside the cafe, they'd get the same treatment, but I don't think it would be any more or any worse. We created the Bazaar and Cafe, as I said, specifically because we wanted to WELCOME authors and yet still protect our members from over-zealous promotion.
> 
> Look, we get it. You have a new book (generic you  ) and want to tell people. You're excited. We congratulate you! But, you know, you told us that already, so . . . o.k. (It can be almost as annoying as the folks who think their kids are perfect.  ) BUT, we don't want you to go away! We want to know when you write a new book -- but you really only need to tell us once.  And, you know, if you remind us once a week or so that it's out there, that's o.k. But no more than that or you'll annoy us. These are the reasons we started the Book Bazaar. And, whether you think it's useful or not, I know for a fact there are people who check out the bazaar daily for new and updated threads to see if there's a book they might like or some promo on a book they've been considering.


Ann -- Thanks for jumping in. And yes, I love the overall tone and feel here on Kboards -- ever time I have seen the moderators get involved, I have always seen their actions as measured and reasonable. Even though I am very new to the community, I have always felt welcome. I feel that the board's policies are more than reasonable. I think the site is a great service for the reader community (not saying that to kiss up, just sharing my honest opinion -- Kboards is one of my favorite places on the net and I was a lurker long before I was a member).

And yeah, I hate the hard sell, too -- if someone is an authority on a subject online and makes great posts and I see they are a writer, I am probably going to check out their profile, then their Amazon or Smashwords page or website, etc. The sales will come if I am interested...and if you are cool online and your stuff is good, I will gladly promote you (guys like Mike Stackpole and Hugh Howey and Neil Gaiman, for example -- great authors and very cool people to boot). You absolutely don't need to spam to be successful (on the contrary, that will only hinder your goals). You just need to be a meaningful community contributor (or generate your own content elsewhere that is worth bringing to the attention of the community) -- people generally will recognize you and start having an interest.

One thing I have learned in my day job as a customer service rep (which includes some sales) -- don't pressure the customer. That just creates resistance and hostility. Instead, just politely let them know what you have to offer -- if they are interested, they will take a nibble. And if they feel you are a decent person online and they like your stuff, they become much more loyal fans than someone who "hard sells" to people.

And one thing that I love about my genre (speculative fiction) -- man, if somebody doesn't like my aliens-and-rayguns stuff, that's fine, there is a lot of other amazing stuff to talk about: The field is so broad and there are so many utterly amazing authors out there, there is room for everyone and every taste. Ray Bradbury, Neil Gaiman, Stephen King, Jim Butcher, Star Wars and Star Trek and Babylon 5, Marvel and DC comics, Tolkien and Terry Brooks, Robert Heinlein and Clarke and Asimov -- there is so much great stuff to talk about.

The only reason I used so much author-oriented terminology in my previous post was because the subject was "have the writers taken over"? (I know you made that clear, just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean to spam, my apologies if anything came across that way.)

I try to see things from both perspectives --

First, as a reader (who loves great sci-fi/fantasy/speculative fiction books) and someone who loves being a part of a great community where I can discuss wonderful books (and hopefully contribute to the quality of the community).

Second, as an author: Just by being a "good citizen," I hope to be able to find readers who might like my work (without spamming)...but that comes from contributing meaningfully, not by always promoting.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

Readers who get a Kindle are excited about it, and are highly motivated to post. Their motivation decreases over time. It doesn't mean they stop using the Kindle, they are just less excited about it. The writers, on the other hand, remain motivated to post. Imagine you have a room, and two groups of people enter and leave the room. One group has red shirts, the other had blue shirts. The red shirts stay for a little while and leave, while the blue shirts stay for much longer. Over time, the percentage of blue shirts in the room will increase.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Iguana, that's a good point . . .we always get a bump in activity when there's a new kindle announced. 

Sent from my Kindle Fire HDX.


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## musclehead (Dec 29, 2010)

QuantumIguana said:


> Readers who get a Kindle are excited about it, and are highly motivated to post. Their motivation decreases over time. It doesn't mean they stop using the Kindle, they are just less excited about it. The writers, on the other hand, remain motivated to post. Imagine you have a room, and two groups of people enter and leave the room. One group has red shirts, the other had blue shirts. The red shirts stay for a little while and leave, while the blue shirts stay for much longer. Over time, the percentage of blue shirts in the room will increase.


^What he said.


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## HappyGuy (Nov 3, 2008)

As a reader, I say, "Welcome!" The more activity we have here the better I like it. I haven't run into any excessive promotion; I think the mods do an excellent job off keeping an eye on things.


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