# What do you look for in a fantasy book?



## Queenbe Monyei (Apr 5, 2011)

What makes you guys think a fantasy book is a good book?
Are you looking for intricate story lines, in-depth character descriptions, lots of action, and/or lots of detailed setting descriptions. Personally I really like in-depth character descriptions and character backstories. I think every villain has a story and I want to know it )


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## jason10mm (Apr 7, 2009)

I like good characters and intricate plotting in EVERY book, the setting is irrelevant for that!

Fantasy for me is mostly about atmosphere and rich world building. I bet most of the recent fantasy stories I've read could be transplanted to the modern era or set on Mars and they would still be good stories. It is the world that attracts me to a fantasy setting. Is it a close parallel to a historical era that interests me, or does it feature sneaky conniving gnomes that I just adore? I find that the more fantasy I read, I am less and less interested in the particulars of the plot (is it boy king versus evil sorcercer or is it girl queen versus demon lord this time?) and more interested in how well the world works and interacts with itself. Great characters shine through no matter what. For example, George Martin has a relatively aimless series at the moment, but he took a world and made it multi-layered and filled with interesting people. So even though no one can tell where it is going or even what really is going on, the depth of backstory and strength of the people make it great.


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

Most of the fantasies I read are young adult. I'm not sure why, maybe because adult fantasy is kind of intimidating. Haha!

Obviously, I need something that seems interesting to me. I like fast-paced fantasies, but as long as something's happening, I'm down. Likable characters I care about are important. Unique worlds and/or magic systems add a lot, too, like if it's something I haven't really seen before, like Walter Moers' books.


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## gatehouseauthor (Apr 22, 2011)

Believable and likable (or completely unlikable but interesting) characters is the top choice for me.  Characters that are well-developed, as consistent as real people (which is to say mostly, but not perfectly), with dialog that rings true on as many levels as possible.

Follow that with the world-building, at least in the sense of consistency of "how things work".  I don't want to see the main character suddenly develop some amazing deus ex machina ability they didn't have before, unless it's foreshadowed and makes sense within the system that has been established in the storyline.

Followed by plot... because, seriously, if the story is silly, or rushed, or wraps up too "pat", then it can immediately kill whatever enjoyment I had in the book up to that point.

And finally... dialog!  Characters whose dialog is believable, consistent, and readable!  I mentioned it above under character development, but it really deserves its own category.  The dialog can make or break it for me.  If the dialog and speech patterns you've established for a character change and meander throughout the book, or if they just don't sound right for the character's age, setting, and general persona, it can be a real detriment to an otherwise great book.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm looking for hot men in armor, wielding swords. Maybe some less hot men in robes casting spells too.


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## scl (Feb 19, 2011)

Characters and consistency.  Things have to flow and follow from what has gone before - unless there's a reason for a sudden inconsistency.   If there is magic I want to see some sort of pattern to it, once again unless there is a reason for inconsistency.  No matter what the genre though, I think what I like most is believable people ( even if they're BEMs from Fomalhoute or robots or something else that you aren't going to meet on the street this afternoon) that you can like, identify with, or despise.  A believable plot helps, but I've read books I enjoyed because of the people with virtually no plot complications.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

What? Where did these guys come from? *Whistles innocently and walk away*


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## Queenbe Monyei (Apr 5, 2011)

jason10mm said:


> I like good characters and intricate plotting in EVERY book, the setting is irrelevant for that!
> 
> Fantasy for me is mostly about atmosphere and rich world building. I bet most of the recent fantasy stories I've read could be transplanted to the modern era or set on Mars and they would still be good stories. It is the world that attracts me to a fantasy setting. Is it a close parallel to a historical era that interests me, or does it feature sneaky conniving gnomes that I just adore? I find that the more fantasy I read, I am less and less interested in the particulars of the plot (is it boy king versus evil sorcercer or is it girl queen versus demon lord this time?) and more interested in how well the world works and interacts with itself. Great characters shine through no matter what. For example, George Martin has a relatively aimless series at the moment, but he took a world and made it multi-layered and filled with interesting people. So even though no one can tell where it is going or even what really is going on, the depth of backstory and strength of the people make it great.


Finding the perfect dialogue can be a challenge in fantasy stories, mainly because you have to imagine your characters reacting to things that you personally have no experience with in the real world. "How would you act if..."seems to be the thought process when introducing characters in a dilemma in a fantasy world. The atmosphere definitely has to be rich, you want to feel like you are their with the characters without being bogged down with extraneous details.


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## Queenbe Monyei (Apr 5, 2011)

emilyward said:


> Most of the fantasies I read are young adult. I'm not sure why, maybe because adult fantasy is kind of intimidating. Haha!
> 
> Obviously, I need something that seems interesting to me. I like fast-paced fantasies, but as long as something's happening, I'm down. Likable characters I care about are important. Unique worlds and/or magic systems add a lot, too, like if it's something I haven't really seen before, like Walter Moers' books.


I feel you on this one. I want to read Lord of The Rings (I started it). But I find myself intimidated and I've also read numerous times of Tolkein's love for taking several pages to describe trees...this always gets me because I love a fast pace. It doesn't have to be action fast pace but I love when we are learning more about the characters.


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## J.G. McKenney (Apr 16, 2011)

I look for fantasy that's "different," that can make me look at things differently. Usually that is manifested in a refreshing concept, or an complex character, or an amazing world. In my opinion, like all great art, great fantasy has the power "to hold as 'twere, the mirror up to nature." (Hamlet) Every now and then one comes along that accomplishes this. It isn't often.


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## M.S. Verish (Feb 26, 2010)

Believable characters and world creation.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

I like characters that are interesting and that I care about. "Care" does not have to mean "like", but I have to be interested in finding out what happens to them. Everything else from plot to setting to magic system to the biology of dragons should be there to support that goal of making me want to continue to follow what happens to the characters. (This does not mean I don't want plot, setting, etc. -- I do -- but without main characters I care about, the best you can generally hope for is a okay story instead of a great one.)

Frankly, I find that the more intricate the plot with more and more different story lines and important characters, the more the author risks burdening me with one or more characters I do _not_ care about; potentially taking what could have been an effective story and ruining it with the addition of unnecessary and uninteresting characters that I want to skim over. There are skilled authors who can pull off such complexity and keep me drawn into the story, wanting to find out what happens to each character; but many cannot pull that off -- and even those who can often only succeed sporadically (at least for my tastes).


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## jongoff (Mar 31, 2011)

Queenbe Monyei said:


> I feel you on this one. I want to read Lord of The Rings (I started it). But I find myself intimidated and I've also read numerous times of Tolkein's love for taking several pages to describe trees...this always gets me because I love a fast pace. It doesn't have to be action fast pace but I love when we are learning more about the characters.


Tolkien doesn't take pages to describe anything. It's an exaggeration, but when he does, it is done well and doesn't take you away from the story. Better, it puts you firmly in the world. Tolkien's is the only book I ever read where you come away half believing what you read was real. I envy anyone who gets to read Tolkien for the first time, because it only happens once, and when it does, it's as real a magic as any you've ever read about. He doesn't tell you a story of Middle Earth, he takes you there. He's worth it.


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## Lyndl (Apr 2, 2010)

Characters are #1. There must be good characterisation. They have to be believable and I have to care what happens to them. Even if that means they die horribly or are banished to a hole in a rock several thousand feet beneath the earth till the end of time. I need to care what happens to the bad guy too! And, _please_, don't make your villain omnipotent. Nothing is more irritating than a bad guy who sees all, knows all and guesses right every time. Let him/her have some flaws! Same for the MC, let him/her be real.

Plot is next. I enjoy a good dose of intrigue. In fact, I prefer intrigue to endless battle scenes and sword fights. Magic is good too, but don't spend pages explaining the mechanics of it. A few simple rules will suffice. Eddings had this spot on with his Will and Word , action v reaction type magic. Keep it consistent

World building is important but it shouldn't overshadow the story. Don't spend pages on describing it, let it unfold with the story . I read fantasy, I have an imagination, let me add my own interpretations too. I'll enjoy it more.


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## Kris Robbins (Jul 26, 2011)

Oddly, not too much of a fantasy!
Believable characters in a World that I think could actually exist!

A fantastic World full of sensational characters doing incredible things in ways that are vaguely possible!
Still, I'm an H G Wells style writer, he defined the genre! Few come near!


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

I look for good villains. It feels like too many fantasy villains/antagonists are evil Just Because. I want real motivations for my villains as much as for my heroes (who I also don't like going on quests Just Because either).


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## Queenbe Monyei (Apr 5, 2011)

Selina Fenech said:


> I look for good villains. It feels like too many fantasy villains/antagonists are evil Just Because. I want real motivations for my villains as much as for my heroes (who I also don't like going on quests Just Because either).


Yes! This was so important to me when I wrote my villain. I wanted to give her side (my villain is female) of the story--almost have you question if she really is a villain or just dealing with the cards that she was dealt.


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## Queenbe Monyei (Apr 5, 2011)

jongoff said:


> Tolkien doesn't take pages to describe anything. It's an exaggeration, but when he does, it is done well and doesn't take you away from the story. Better, it puts you firmly in the world. Tolkien's is the only book I ever read where you come away half believing what you read was real. I envy anyone who gets to read Tolkien for the first time, because it only happens once, and when it does, it's as real a magic as any you've ever read about. He doesn't tell you a story of Middle Earth, he takes you there. He's worth it.


Thanks for this! There are so many opinions surrounding his books. I will just need to take the plunge for myself.


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## leearco (Jul 17, 2011)

I like to see a world that I can see myself in and the good characters.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

I like a tale that I can believe in; a solid world, consistent plotting, and characters who feel 'real'.

I also like a story that plays with my emotions, at time making me angry (or exasperated) with the storyline like George R R Martin's 'Red Wedding' scene, or set my spirit to soar, or even bring (nasty old) me to tears.

Personally, I want something with some depth that I can think about, a tale that will haunt me after the reading.


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## Evan Couzens (Jul 18, 2011)

For me, the most important things is that the characters face realistic challenges and decisions. Odd criteria for fantasy, sure, but it really throws me out of the story when Our Hero is both naive and untested while simultaneously being the Only Hope to stop Big Bad. The real world never hinges on the actions of a mechanic in Milwaukee, so why should a fantasy? 

Worldbuilding is equally important to me. I like it most when there are realistic, relatable characters that just happen to live in a rich, magical world.


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## jason10mm (Apr 7, 2009)

I beg to differ. Who knows how many global catastrophes have been stopped by that mechanic? Maybe he just doesn't advertize 

And really, if that mechanic slacks on the job (brake repair man) then folks can die. So in a sense, for specific individuals, that mechanic is the MOST IMPORTANT person in their life! Fantasy just usually elevates the stakes beyond a families life or death up to the national/world survival level for some reason, even though there are dozens of other genres that comfortably deal with just a limited interpersonal scope.

There are "grunt level" fantasy series out there. Not everyone has to be a prince or wizard to affect the world and really, the fundamental differences between a lot of fantasy worlds is whether or not there is a meritocracy system or if it is all neoptism, hereditary peerage, and inherited rule with class distinctions. The naive hero is typically nobility or gifted in some manner, rarely is he really just a farmboy with 20 generations of farmers behind him.


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## Evan Couzens (Jul 18, 2011)

jason10mm said:


> I beg to differ. Who knows how many global catastrophes have been stopped by that mechanic? Maybe he just doesn't advertize
> 
> And really, if that mechanic slacks on the job (brake repair man) then folks can die. So in a sense, for specific individuals, that mechanic is the MOST IMPORTANT person in their life! *Fantasy just usually elevates the stakes beyond a families life or death up to the national/world survival level for some reason, even though there are dozens of other genres that comfortably deal with just a limited interpersonal scope.*
> 
> There are "grunt level" fantasy series out there. Not everyone has to be a prince or wizard to affect the world and really, the fundamental differences between a lot of fantasy worlds is whether or not there is a meritocracy system or if it is all neoptism, hereditary peerage, and inherited rule with class distinctions. The naive hero is typically nobility or gifted in some manner, rarely is he really just a farmboy with 20 generations of farmers behind him.


That's my point. Fantasy has a disproportionate number of world-saving mechanics, and that sort of story doesn't jive with me. I've noticed that oftentimes the world saving mechanic is also the one with a secret noble heritage, or is the subject of some ancient prophecy, and it's just not my thing.

I am a huge fan of what you call grunt level fantasy. I'd much rather read about the sorcerer king's bodyguard than the sorcerer king himself. You can use the same world, but it's easier to relate to someone with a day job than it is to relate to someone who turns mountains into castles for funsies.


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## unitbit (Jul 22, 2011)

Villains who you end up siding with! I love that!


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## mooshie78 (Jul 15, 2010)

-Well written

-Interesting characters

-A rich world that's described well and has it's own history etc.

-Exciting battle sequences

-Vulnerable characters, series get boring if none of the main characters ever die


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## Tom_HC99 (May 6, 2011)

Honestly I must say that in a fantasy book it all depends on the characters and the world/setting. Whether the author can manage to achieve a certain level of fantasy makes the difference.


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## KateEllison (Jul 9, 2011)

Compelling, interesting characters are most important for me, because if they are missing then I probably won't finish reading the book. After that I like clever, solid world-building, the more whimsical the better (like Harry Potter). I also love unexpected twists and heaps of vindication for the MC if he or she was treated unfairly during the book (for some reason these sorts of story lines resonate the most with me in fantasy books). Some of my favorite fantasy writers--all YA, incidentally--include Robin McKinley, JK Rowling, Megan Whalen Turner, Dianna Wynne Jones, and Gail Carson Levine.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

J.G. McKenney said:


> I look for fantasy that's "different," that can make me look at things differently. Usually that is manifested in a refreshing concept, or an complex character, or an amazing world. In my opinion, like all great art, great fantasy has the power "to hold as 'twere, the mirror up to nature." (Hamlet) Every now and then one comes along that accomplishes this. It isn't often.


^this^

Apart from all the things that make any story good - like characters and a believable world (even none fantasy needs that! )
I prefer fantasy that deals with something I recognise from my own life, or issues I have to grapple with in the real world. A lot of the best fantasy does this. A common theme is how society deals with those that are different in any way. Another one is the responsibility that comes with using power.

I find that a story moves me far more powerfully if it also resonates with the "real" issues we all deal with in our lives, and fantasy is particularly well equipped to explore these.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Other than the qualities any good book in any genre would possess? 

No endless paragraphs of scenic description.

Plenty of action and adventure.

A cool world with a few truly fantastic elements, but not reams of exposition from an author that spent ten years building the world.

A sense of wonder.

Sorcery. Evil. Sexiness.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Queenbe Monyei said:


> What makes you guys think a fantasy book is a good book?
> Are you looking for intricate story lines, in-depth character descriptions, lots of action, and/or lots of detailed setting descriptions. Personally I really like in-depth character descriptions and character backstories. I think every villain has a story and I want to know it )


I don't read a whole lot of fantasy but I'm reading Song of Ice and Fire right now and it's the ideal fantasy series for me. It has everything you listed but particularly the intricate story lines and in-depth character development are what make it great for me. I also want action and setting descriptions but I don't want it to go overboard on the descriptions like Tolkien did.


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## G.L. Breedon (Jul 7, 2011)

> Frankly, I find that the more intricate the plot with more and more different story lines and important characters, the more the author risks burdening me with one or more characters I do not care about; potentially taking what could have been an effective story and ruining it with the addition of unnecessary and uninteresting characters that I want to skim over.


I agree NogDog. That is one the problems I tend to have with George Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series. He spends a lot of time with characters that I loath. It makes for faster, but less enjoyable reading.

In fantasy I'm looking to be shown a world I would like to spend some time in. Maybe not live in, but someplace interesting enough to keep me looking around. Like a tourist in a foreign country. As for plots, I tend to like them well paced. The less complicated they are the faster I prefer them to move. My favorite novels (fantasy or not) tend to have characters that I would wish to emulate in some way. If I see something in the characters that I either see in myself, or wish I saw in myself, and I can care about them, then I want to read more about their story.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm generally drawn to fantasy with stronger action/adventure elements, so I suppose characters and plot are most important to me. The world-building aspect doesn't interest me so much, though there have been a few cases where I've been drawn in by truly unusual or unique touches.


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## Adam Kisiel (Jun 20, 2011)

1. Good plot, not easy to guess twists
2. Likeable and believable characters
3. Good dialogue, which sounds like a dialogue (there are not many writers who can achieve that, A.Sapkowski with his Witcher has achieved the mastery of this)
4. Humour
5. Atmosphere
6. Believable world


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Adam Kisiel said:


> 1. Good plot, not easy to guess twists
> 2. Likeable and believable characters
> 3. Good dialogue, which sounds like a dialogue (there are not many writers who can achieve that, A.Sapkowski with his Witcher has achieved the mastery of this)
> 4. Humour
> ...


To play the devil's advocate  These are all things I want from _any_ book. What do you look for in fantasy in particular?


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## Adam Kisiel (Jun 20, 2011)

mashadutoit said:


> To play the devil's advocate  These are all things I want from _any_ book. What do you look for in fantasy in particular?


Hello  Well, you are right. Thinking more about it:

1) About the believable world: Either a world that has something new and unique to it, or a completely classical fantasy world, with dwarves, halflings and so on. This type of setting makes me feel at home, like I am coming back to a familiar place.
2). Characters. I hate the "omnipotent, completely sorcerer/fighter" characters. I like fantasy characters with their flaws, good at one thing but requiring help in other areas.
3). Humourous events. I love when out of the blue even in the serious plot, something funny happens, especially if it is connected strictly with the plot (Like in the Witcher, when Geralt the Witcher using his ultra-sharp Witcher sense of hearing, overhears a lot of conversations about himself)
4). A bit of classics. As a rpg storytelling player with a long experience, I love classic moments in the fantasy books. Examples: collecting the party in the tavern, traveling through the forests, etc, etc.
5) and finally, I love the charismatic villains. The example I will give comes exceptionally not from the book, but from the Masterpiece Webcomic "Order of the Stick". The arch-villain featured there, lich Xykon, is simply the best evil character I have ever encountered anywhere. If you like fantasy, go and start to read Order of the Stick - it is really an epic, funny and most entertaining experience.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Adam Kisiel said:


> 4). A bit of classics. As a rpg storytelling player with a long experience, I love classic moments in the fantasy books. Examples: collecting the party in the tavern, traveling through the forests, etc, etc.


Great stuff. Especially this bit ^^ about classic elements. A writer can include those well loved elements and then updates them to make them fresh and appealing.


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## Zackery Arbela (Jan 31, 2011)

One thing to always consider is whether or not the author has sacrificed plot for worldbuilding. Having a believable world is important for any fantasy story, but sometimes writers will sacrifice the actual story for the sake of the world, which bogs down the first and makes the second boring..,


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## JA_Paul (Jun 23, 2010)

Dara England said:


> I'm looking for hot men in armor, wielding swords. Maybe some less hot men in robes casting spells too.


Too Funny!


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## JA_Paul (Jun 23, 2010)

Kris Robbins said:


> Believable characters in a World that I think could actually exist!


I agree with this. I like the fantasy to feel like it could be real yet be written with bold characters in a bold world. New worlds are fun but not if they are filled with ho-hum people.


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## John Dorian (Jul 23, 2011)

I like cool stuff. You need a main character that makes makes you say "Wow! This guy is a badass!"

That is why I like Terry Pratchett so much. He is very good at that.

Another thing I look for is an overdone setting, because that is a major put-off. Sure, creating cool names for cities and characters is fine, by I don't need to know every soup dish, roving animal, and type of plant by name! It's freaking annoying!


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

J.G. McKenney said:


> I look for fantasy that's "different," that can make me look at things differently. Usually that is manifested in a refreshing concept, or an complex character, or an amazing world. In my opinion, like all great art, great fantasy has the power "to hold as 'twere, the mirror up to nature." (Hamlet) Every now and then one comes along that accomplishes this. It isn't often.


Nice comment.

Whether I succeed at it or not, that's what I try to write.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Great discussion.

I don't think I look for anything unique in a fantasy versus other genres. I look for:

1) Confident, fearless writing (Scott Lynch)
2) Hard to predict plot (George R. R. Martin)
3) Deep characters (I loved Moorcock's Elric back in the day)
4) Good pacing (David Gemmell)

Great worldbuilding (Steven Erikson) and great magic systems (Brandon Sanderson) are a bonus.


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

emilyward said:


> Most of the fantasies I read are young adult. I'm not sure why, maybe because adult fantasy is kind of intimidating. Haha!
> 
> Obviously, I need something that seems interesting to me. I like fast-paced fantasies, but as long as something's happening, I'm down. Likable characters I care about are important. Unique worlds and/or magic systems add a lot, too, like if it's something I haven't really seen before, like Walter Moers' books.


I also like lighter fantasy fare and I tend to prefer shorter works to longer ones. Good Omens by Terry Prachett and Neil Gaiman was particularly entertaining. The Princess Bride was also very entertaining and one of the few books where the movie does it justice.

I think I'm somewhat nostolgic for a time with knights of valor and always enjoy coming away from a book feeling better than when I went in.


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## Queenbe Monyei (Apr 5, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Great discussion.
> 
> I don't think I for anything unique in a fantasy versus other genres. I look for:
> 
> ...


Fearless writing, this is something I have been wondering about lately. How does an author know if they might be alienating their readers? Are there some fantasy worlds that are too out there or far-fetched? The thing about fantasy is that we want it to be believable. We want to quantify it and relate it to how it is similar and different to our own world. This helps us makes sense of the newly constructed world. BUT if we have created a world that is so different from our own, then the plot becomes harder to read and guess because the reader is still learning the rules.


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## Sean Cunningham (Jan 11, 2011)

Depends on how different, and how much the story is about showcasing the different world. The most extreme example I can think of is China Mieville's The City & The City. The bizarre setting is sort of the point of the book, which I assume is why he went with a fairly straightforward police story.


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## SimonSmithWilson (Jul 26, 2011)

I just like fun stories. I don't really enjoy the hardcore sort of epic elf battle lark. I love terry pratchett type fantasy books, which are funny, clever and really great stories. I find many characters in fantasy books are very cliche and hard to connect with, like you can do the cast in your head, strong silent hero, sexy woman, weird creature, some kind of dwarf, hobbit or small person and optional favourite horse that dies. Many of the fantasy I read are just like this and put me off the genre for a long time... even though I write it, lol.


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## unitbit (Jul 22, 2011)

Bleekness said:


> The fantasy writers I like:
> 
> David Gemmell
> 
> ...


This is a great list of authors... I am hurting to read more!


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## Sharon Red (Jul 23, 2011)

mashadutoit said:


> To play the devil's advocate  These are all things I want from _any_ book. What do you look for in fantasy in particular?


Touche!


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## mikelewis (May 31, 2011)

Nowadays I look for something that isn't cookie-cutter fantasy straight from D&D with orcs and elves and dwarfs;  something which shows that the author has thought about their world and the races that live in it.

It seems to me that a lot of fantasy is moving away from the Tolkeinesque-style fantasy with a lot of fantasy races and more towards the medieval-with-magic style of fantasy where non-human creatures are rare.

I also like to see good and evil with real characterisation -Joe Abercrombie does this well with his inquisition character, as does George RR Martin with Tyrion the dwarf. They are characters you can understand even if you don't agree with their moral viewpoint.

Too much politics about made-up countries is a turn-off for me - people very rarely do this well and it tends to slow the plot and I find a lot of it simply makes me skim until something happens!

Mike


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## ML Hamilton (Feb 21, 2011)

A great fantasy book has to have believable characters that are three-dimensional. The plot isn't as important to me as long as it moves the characters' lives along.


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## SusanSizemore (Aug 23, 2011)

I want characters I care about - but then I wan that in all books. In fantasy, I want to believe the world. It needs to be internally consistent. I want great world building - as in I'd love to be a tourist in that world - or, I wouldn't want to go there! I want to believe the setting, descriptions, culture, weather, geology, history, mythology, cultures.

_--- sorry  no self-promotion outside the Book Bazaar forum. please read our Forum Decorum thread._


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

I look for something new and original. Obviously, all fantasy will have some elements in common, which is why originality is so important to me. George Martin's dark and gritty fantasy was original at the time, but has since been copied quite a bit. I'm always looking for a new world, a new concept, a new vision that feels fresh (at least to me in that moment).


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

There has been a big push for “gritty realism” in fantasy over the last two decades, regardless of whether it is historical or urban. The more traditional “hero’s quest” being abandoned for greater ambiguity that critics call depth. I’ve never been able to understand that because, after all, it’s fantasy, and fantasy is like daydreaming. Does anyone daydream about a miserable world filled with awful people where the dreamer themself is also despicable? 

One of the arguments made in favor of realism is that audiences are tired of the same old thing, but that doesn’t work for me. Music is almost always made up of melodies, beats, and rhythm, but few prefer music without these tired old tropes. Oddly enough, I never get tired of melodies, beats and rhythms because there are an infinite number of them possible, and because the alternative is noise. 

I’ve also heard that realism is better because the characters are more believable, more like real people. This comes up a lot. “Good” characters suffer and succumb to corruption, greed, lust, hate, jealousy. The result is that there are no heroes, because in real life there are no heroes—no people who are genuinely good, or who manage to resist temptation or overcome adversity to win. No happily-ever-after. In real life, should a person appear to do something great, then we all know there must be a flaw. Drugs were used. Kids were beaten. Tests were cheated. It has to be this way because heroes don’t exist, and so why should they in our literature? Even if it is fantasy, there are limits to what people can be expected to believe in. Dragons? sure. Ghosts, vampires, werewolves? absolutely, but a wholly good person with the courage to stand up for what is right without an ulterior motive? That’s ridiculous. 

Seems to me that if we give up on heroes in our fantasies, or on societies that are worth saving, then how can we ever expect to find them in the real world? Great things begin with an idea, but if our imaginary think-tanks are no more than a reflection of real life, what’s the point?


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> There has been a big push for "gritty realism" in fantasy over the last two decades, regardless of whether it is historical or urban. The more traditional "hero's quest" being abandoned for greater ambiguity that critics call depth. I've never been able to understand that because, after all, it's fantasy, and fantasy is like daydreaming. Does anyone daydream about a miserable world filled with awful people where the dreamer themself is also despicable?
> 
> One of the arguments made in favor of realism is that audiences are tired of the same old thing, but that doesn't work for me. Music is almost always made up of melodies, beats, and rhythm, but few prefer music without these tired old tropes. Oddly enough, I never get tired of melodies, beats and rhythms because there are an infinite number of them possible, and because the alternative is noise.
> 
> ...


This is something I think about a lot. The tension between story reality and "real" reality. I think it is important to remember that there are also different types of stories. Some are like a photograph taken by a journalist. Others are like old fashioned woodcuts, persian miniatures, or even completely abstract colour field paintings. We like to think that the photograph is more "real" than the other artworks, but in fact, it is just as manipulated. The photographer decided how to frame the photo, what to leave out, touched it up a bit in Photoshop to make it more grainy and we are left with "grimy reality".

Good stories touch upon truth, not reality.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

I agree that "dark and gritty" leaves a lot to be desired in many ways. I'm glad those books exist as a counterpoint, to make the genre more complex and diverse, but I think it is important that we continue to tell uplifting stories where heroes are heroes.


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## Erick Flaig (Oct 25, 2010)

The first thing I look for is a decent map.  If the map in the flyleaf doesn't look plausible, I don't go any further.  Bad things to find on a fantasy map are features like MOUNTAINS OF TERROR, or ISLES OF TORTURED SOULS.  No one names features like that, and if an author thinks they do, I don't want to experience what he or she thinks passes for dialogue.


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## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

I want characters that I can get to know.  By the end of a book or a series I want to feel like I could take Mr. Awesome Knight Dude and stick him on a space station and have a general idea of what he would do.

I want the characters immersed in the world so that if I took Mr. Awesome Knight Dude and stuck him on a space station he'd be a completely different dude.

And I want some sense that the story knows where it fits.  I think it is more than just having the party gather in a tavern (I mean, frankly, where else are you going to get enough dwarven ale?) but if the story is about some schlub that becomes king, I want to know that the writer knows it's been done a million times before and actually feels he has something to add to the story.

One thing I would like more of in stories is normal people.  I think there are a lot of faults to be found with Lord of the Rings but the ultimate heroes are just a couple of guys who did what needed to be done.  If you look at real world heroes they are, for the most part, just normal guys doing what needs to be done.

But ultimately, what I want out of a fantasy is a) the feeling that I could crawl through the page and make myself a home there and b) the desire to do so.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> There has been a big push for "gritty realism" in fantasy over the last two decades, regardless of whether it is historical or urban. The more traditional "hero's quest" being abandoned for greater ambiguity that critics call depth. I've never been able to understand that because, after all, it's fantasy, and fantasy is like daydreaming. Does anyone daydream about a miserable world filled with awful people where the dreamer themself is also despicable?
> 
> One of the arguments made in favor of realism is that audiences are tired of the same old thing, but that doesn't work for me. Music is almost always made up of melodies, beats, and rhythm, but few prefer music without these tired old tropes. Oddly enough, I never get tired of melodies, beats and rhythms because there are an infinite number of them possible, and because the alternative is noise.
> 
> ...


Maybe you need to read Martin again. That is NOT what he is saying. Characters such as Jon and Ned are certainly not despicable by any stretch of the imagination, whatever choices they may be forced to or mistakes they may make.

When Jon betrays his vows to the Night Watch because his commander in the Night Watch _orders_ him to, Martin is NOT saying that Jon has succumbed to corruption and greed, but that life is often not black and white. Jon broke one vow to keep a greater one. He suffered greatly for it. Should Ned have allowed his daughter to be killed rather than


Spoiler



agree to lie


? What WAS the honourable thing to do? Either way, his decision


Spoiler



led to his death


.

Life if rarely simple. I look for a fantasy world that isn't simple and is filled with complex characters some of whom strive for honour whether they always reach it or not, and some of whom probably don't give a tinker's d*mn about what is honourable.

The "hero's journey" was always too simplistic for my taste.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

e. flaig said:


> The first thing I look for is a decent map. If the map in the flyleaf doesn't look plausible, I don't go any further. Bad things to find on a fantasy map are features like MOUNTAINS OF TERROR, or ISLES OF TORTURED SOULS. No one names features like that, and if an author thinks they do, I don't want to experience what he or she thinks passes for dialogue.


We had a fantasy map thread recently in the Writer's Cafe. I'm probably going to bump it tomorrow with a Mind Meld about fantasy maps coming out from SFSignal. I got to contribute to the Mind Meld. I bet there will be a lot of good maps presented, and some interesting discussion.


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## Amera (May 22, 2011)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> There has been a big push for "gritty realism" in fantasy over the last two decades, regardless of whether it is historical or urban. The more traditional "hero's quest" being abandoned for greater ambiguity that critics call depth. I've never been able to understand that because, after all, it's fantasy, and fantasy is like daydreaming. Does anyone daydream about a miserable world filled with awful people where the dreamer themself is also despicable?
> 
> One of the arguments made in favor of realism is that audiences are tired of the same old thing, but that doesn't work for me. Music is almost always made up of melodies, beats, and rhythm, but few prefer music without these tired old tropes. Oddly enough, I never get tired of melodies, beats and rhythms because there are an infinite number of them possible, and because the alternative is noise.
> 
> ...


This is a really great post and summarizes my feelings pretty well. I've never really gotten into the "bleak trend" of some modern fantasy, with a few caveats. That doesn't mean heroes and heroines need to be infallible by any stretch, but a world full of sociopaths isn't any more realistic than a world full of paladins. There's a nice balance to be had. I think dark worlds themselves are interesting so long as there are people legitimately trying to make them better (and at least one or two people you can pull for, despite their flaws). I tend to be a big fan of "roguish" characters who live in a very gray world but do the right thing when it counts.

I suspect part of my view comes from the fact I teach international politics and already get to talk about all the wretched things going on in the real world every day. I'm not really interested in reading about more of that, let alone writing it.


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## river daughter (Jan 12, 2010)

I have read my fair share of fantasy books, and by now I know what I like to find in a good fantasy book. I want character development that helps you to really get to know the characters and their motivations. I get annoyed when a character does something completely unexpected just for a plot twist of some kind, especially with the "I was good but now I am bad" or vice versa. Even though it's a movie example, I'm still not convinced that Anakin


Spoiler



would really have killed little Jedi kids


, sorry! (Probably not necessary to do the spoiler cover but you never know...)

The world is very important in fantasy books. I like to read about different cultures and histories of people from different lands. A detailed map always makes me very happy; whenever there is a journey of any kind I like to be able to look at the map. I always enjoy a well written battle and plenty of political intrigue.

Fantasy books don't have to be completely magical for me; if they are, it is nice to find books that have unique ways in which magic works in their world.

Some of my favorite authors are George RR Martin, Jacqueline Carey, JRR Tolkien, Robert Jordan, and David Eddings among many others.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Here's that link to SFSignal's Mind Meld on Fantasy Maps.

If you check my contribution, I gave links to some of my favorites (so you can see them). They include:
Jim Butcher's Codex Alera, Book 6.
Joe Abercrombie's Best Served Cold
David Anthony Durham's Acacia
Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn
Kevin J. Anderson's Terra Incognita series
Selina Fenech's Memory's Wake (w00t)
Terry Pratchett's Discworld


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## nickpeirson (Mar 26, 2011)

To be honest I find it really hard to quantify! I can tell you books Fantasy books I've liked, but I've not put much thought into what it was I particularly liked about them. While it's somewhat lazy I find I can arrive in a thread and ask for books similar to a set of books and get a good set of recommendations. I think asking for books by, for example, 'good in depth characters' is probably more subjective and prone to differences of opinion than saying, here's a bunch of books I like, if you like those, what else do you like?

When that recommendation method starts failing I'll start analysing what I read to help when I go looking for my next book.

If anyone wants to analyse my reading habits, my favourite fantasy recently has been, unsurprisingly, George RR Martin's Game of Thrones books, as well as David Anthony Durham's Acacia series, which I'm pleased to say I have the third in the series on pre-order. I'm severely tempted to re-read the first two books before it arrives to refresh my memory of the story so far.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

e. flaig said:


> The first thing I look for is a decent map. If the map in the flyleaf doesn't look plausible, I don't go any further. Bad things to find on a fantasy map are features like MOUNTAINS OF TERROR, or ISLES OF TORTURED SOULS. No one names features like that, and if an author thinks they do, I don't want to experience what he or she thinks passes for dialogue.


I couldn't agree more.

Melodramatic names that aren't based on particularly dramatic features or cliches are a little bit lame. My pet hate on a map is the plotted river that starts on one coast of a continent, moves through the interior and then exits on the other side's coast. That's either a channel or impossibly well engineered. Either way, it's not a natural river. Geographical and cartographical impossibilities get me a little bit cheesed.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

I find that these days, I prefer it if the book offers the possibility that a character can get permanently damaged, which is usually not the case in a lot of fantasy.  Not all, of course!  I'm reading Anubis Gate by Tim Powers at the moment and it is really gripping because I know he does not spare his characters.  Horrible things can and do happen to them and they dont necessarily get out of their scrapes the way so many fantasy characters do.  So when somebody is being dragged to the torture chambers, you do actually get really nervous because there is a good possibility that they wont get rescued, or suddenly develop a magical ability or whatever to save them from the bandsaw.


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## jongoff (Mar 31, 2011)

mashadutoit said:


> I find that these days, I prefer it if the book offers the possibility that a character can get permanently damaged, which is usually not the case in a lot of fantasy. Not all, of course! I'm reading Anubis Gate by Tim Powers at the moment and it is really gripping because I know he does not spare his characters. Horrible things can and do happen to them and they dont necessarily get out of their scrapes the way so many fantasy characters do. So when somebody is being dragged to the torture chambers, you do actually get really nervous because there is a good possibility that they wont get rescued, or suddenly develop a magical ability or whatever to save them from the bandsaw.


I agree with that premise. I think authors too often get attached to our characters. They do take on a life and there is, at least for me, some emotion involved in writing them. They come from unexpected places, that is, sometimes a character takes on a life all its own and a minor one suddenly comes to own more of the story. Or, as in my case, a character becomes so sympathetic that you don't want to hurt them. The fact is, though, you have to. If the characters never come to harm, if they dodge every bullet... most importantly, if they cannot die, there is no sense of danger.

Not only that, the emotions that you can leverage as a writer are far greater when you put your characters into real peril, that is something they can die from. The first time a character dies, one who isn't minor, the reader realizes that no one is safe. Anyone can die. It changes the game and the level of intensity in a book.

Nor do I think you can cheat death, bring them back as a ghost, for instance. Dead is dead as far as the living are concerned. There might be exceptions. In my book I do have a ghostly manifestation where a minor character appears (they never appear as a living character in the book), and can only manifest when death is near for the other characters, and only in places of a great power, such as an enchanted forest.

When it came time to kill one of my characters, I didn't want to do it. I really liked the character, but it was necessary, critical even to the plot, and so I pulled the trigger, and it is, I've been told, one of the most memorable scenes in the book. So it had the desired impact, and it was worth it, but it was hard.

I think too many authors don't make that hard call. They don't want to risk alienating potential readers who are fond of the character. I've gotten some angry emails that I killed the character, people liked him, but the fact is if you don't risk doing it, you end up with a bland story.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

jongoff said:


> I agree with that premise. I think authors too often get attached to our characters. They do take on a life and there is, at least for me, some emotion involved in writing them. They come from unexpected places, that is, sometimes a character takes on a life all its own and a minor one suddenly comes to own more of the story. Or, as in my case, a character becomes so sympathetic that you don't want to hurt them. The fact is, though, you have to. If the characters never come to harm, if they dodge every bullet... most importantly, if they cannot die, there is no sense of danger.
> 
> Not only that, the emotions that you can leverage as a writer are far greater when you put your characters into real peril, that is something they can die from. The first time a character dies, one who isn't minor, the reader realizes that no one is safe. Anyone can die. It changes the game and the level of intensity in a book.
> 
> ...


I love that idea of the ghost who can only manifest when death is near. It makes sense on an emotional level .

I've just finished reading "The Stress of Her Regard" and now I'm even more convinced of this premise - but I'm not sure I can bring it off myself.

In "The Stress" the main characters both get absolutely mauled, both emotionally and physically, and in ways that you know they will never recover from. But somehow, this makes them seem so much more human. The hero loves the heroine more than ever, even though she has been utterly mauled, among other things she has


Spoiler



cut out her own eye and become pregnant by a vampire out of her own free will


. While I wont have to face the horrible things that people go through in this book, (I hope!) most of us do get damaged in some way and there is something comforting in seeing that despite the damage, the characters go on with their lives and in some essential way, they have grown more themselves.


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