# Would you buy it?



## meeko350 (Aug 25, 2010)

I really want a book but the Kindle price is $4 more than the paperback. Have you ever bought the K version anyway? Or do you wait for the price to drop? I love my Kindle and don't want anymore paperback books.  I just wonder how long it will take for the price to drop, or if it ever will.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

meeko350 said:


> I really want a book but the Kindle price is $4 more than the paperback. Have you ever bought the K version anyway? Or do you wait for the price to drop? I love my Kindle and don't want anymore paperback books. I just wonder how long it will take for the price to drop, or if it ever will.


Torrent the book (if possible). It's the only rational action in this economic transaction.


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## Prazzie (Oct 25, 2009)

mathewferguson said:


> Torrent the book (if possible). It's the only rational action in this economic transaction.


I strongly disagree, illegally acquiring a book is not rational at all.

Personally, I would pay $4 extra for a Kindle book, it's not a lot, but then I don't spend money on many other forms of entertainment, so I can afford to splurge on books. If you would like to wait for a price drop, you can set up a notification at the Kindle Price Drop Tracker. Otherwise, brave the paper and buy the paperback or find it at the library. Plenty of other rational options!


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

I wait for it to drop, just as I'm patient enough to wait for the books I want which aren't even available on Kindle yet to be added. To be honest, I'm not convinced they'll ever drop the price. But fortunately, there's only 3 books I want which are more expensive than the paper version and there are tons of other books I can read instead. So really, they loose, not me.


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## LibbyD (Apr 28, 2009)

I have put a lot of books on my wish list and there have been quite a few price decreases.  Sometimes the decrease has been significant (more than a dollar or two) and other times not (odd numbers of cents).  There have been a few instances of price increases too but I don't worry about that too much since it's still early days in the price wars. I have a lot of unread books -- probably more than I'll live long enough to read -- and so far there isn't anything on my list that I'm desperate to read immediately, so waiting for price decreases is no problem for me.  If there should be anything that I want right away I'll probably buy it despite the price simply because reading a good book is more important to me than saving a few dollars.


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## dazdude (Dec 10, 2009)

I agree to the torrent reaction I am afraid.
Greed needs to be fought. There is no need for business to take advantage and this is what is happening.
If not available then wait - but don't give in to their outrageous prices - do this an it send them the message that it is Ok.


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## Linjeakel (Mar 17, 2010)

I have to say that I very rarely take any notice at all of how much other editions of the book cost - it just doesn't occur to me to check. I see the price the Kindle edition is and then weigh up how much I can afford against how much I really want the book. The more I want it the more I'm willing to pay for it - that's how supply and demand works, right?


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## ChrisGray (Oct 8, 2010)

Another thing to consider is the cost of shipping for paperbacks that you avoid with Kindle editions. Sure, it's a cop out (digital editions _should_ cost less) but unless you live in the U.S.A. the paperback + shipping typically overtakes the cost of the Kindle edition.

I'm no fan of the torrent idea, but I can see people's frustrations in the case of book unavailability in certain countries.

Still, not reading that book is a good a protest as any.


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## love2read (Nov 23, 2008)

I have gotten rid of most of my paperbacks since buying my kindle. If you really love this author or book and don't want anymore paper books in your house, then Kindle would be a good way to go, even at a higher cost. 

The book is more likely to eventually be given away or thrown away if it's sitting on a shelf. With Kindle you will always have it in your library.

If you have a list of other books that you are planning to read first, then watch the price and buy when you are ready to start reading it.

You also have the advantage of changing font sizes and carrying your whole library around with you on the Kindle.


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## patrickt (Aug 28, 2010)

Dazdude: "I agree to the torrent reaction I am afraid.
Greed needs to be fought. There is no need for business to take advantage and this is what is happening.
If not available then wait - but don't give in to their outrageous prices - do this an it send them the message that it is Ok."

I totally agree. Of course, Dazdude would obviously be okay with not paying your taxes--don't give in the to the greedy bastards--and stealing a car because the prices are outrageous. Obviously, I'm being sarcastic. Buy the Kindle book or don't. If you want to send a message we have email. That "send a message" nonsense is a thin cover for "I'm a cheap bastard who wants to steal".

As to whether or not you should buy the book, only you know. For me, I don't compare prices between the Kindle books and the paperbook edition. That's like, for me, comparing the price of a hot dog on a push cart downtown and a hot dog I fix at home. The hot dog I fix at home is cheaper until I factor in going to the store and returning. Then, perhaps another trip to the store for fresh onion and hot peppers because I'm out. And then the time spent cooking and doing clean up. Actually, before I've finished the calculations I've finished my hot dog and gone on walking down the street.

The value of a product is set by you. I've bought only two Kindle books that were over $9.99. They were two books that wanted very much. Therefore, they were worth the premium price. I'm sure there are others that would not have bought the books for $.99. I had a friend who ordered a book from the U.S., paid shipping and taxes, and offered me the book when she was done. I thanked her and said I really wasn't interested. That seems to be in the nature of books.


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## kansaskyle (Sep 14, 2010)

Stealing (i.e., Torrent) is never the right option in my opinion.

I believe ebook prices are a matter of patience.

I personally have over 50 books on my _To Be Read_ list, the majority of which are freebies, and I would really like to read Ken Follet's newest book, _Fall of the Giants_; however, I refuse to pay $19.99 for an ebook. I added the book to the price drop list on Ereaderiq, and I'll gladly read other stuff until it drops.

If you have the money to spend, and cannot endure the waiting game, then go ahead and buy the book you want. It is still cheaper than a movie and concessions, and it is something you'll probably enjoy.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

kansaskyle said:


> Stealing (i.e., Torrent) is never the right option in my opinion.
> 
> I believe ebook prices are a matter of patience.


Perhaps I can change your mind.

So I'm Australian and we have far fewer titles available to us than those who live in the US. Here is a handy image I created a few weeks ago to illustrate: http://i.imgur.com/aCHwp.jpg

Take non-fiction - we have 200, 487 _fewer_ titles available to us. History - 148, 442 fewer titles. Fiction - 67,777 fewer titles.

Not only do we not have access to these titles - we can't even see them on the Amazon store. It locates us by IP address and simply doesn't show us (unless we spoof IP and appear as though we're coming from the US).

And all these titles, the hundreds of thousands of titles not available to us -- they're not down at the library or in the bookshop. Many of them never came here. They're not available through some other ebook retailer. They are simply forbidden to us.

So, torrenting reason number one right there. All peoples of the world have a right to access world culture, to not be cut off. It is, in fact, vital to societies and people to have this access - as vital as safety, protection, food, water, love, etc.

We'll move on to the added $2 tacked on to every single Amazon book for Australians. Why? Data delivery. Apparently I can buy myself 50, 000 mb of bandwidth for $16.95 per month (think how many ebooks downloaded that is) but Amazon can't get the same prices as me and so must charge $2 for a 100kb download.

Hmm ... price gouging. That looks like an excellent reason to torrent.

Thanks to the massive amount of online piracy in Australia, we actually forced a change in the way television stations operate. For popular shows we used to sometimes be up to two or three entire seasons behind the US. Now we're maybe a few days behind. When some episode of some show deals with an important issue, we're able to be part of the global conversation when it's happening - not six months later when it has moved on.

This massive online piracy is perfectly rational and legitimate. An entire country, some 21 million people, were sick and tired of being cut out of instant global cultural communication. So we used the web to free ourselves (partially) from the tyranny of businesses based on old price-gouging models. We freed ourselves partially from our isolation and forever being out of step with the US.

The truth is, we don't have a free market and never have. We have a locked down twisted market that ultimately acts against the best interests of society as a whole. And through piracy and torrenting, we can destroy this idiotic model that says because I live in Australia I need to be charged $2 on top of every single book. We can defeat the model that says that by virtue of my physical location I cannot access hundreds of thousands of digital books. How does where I'm standing have anything to do with the virtual world?

If you find an ebook that is far too expensive, you should torrent it or buy it, crack it and make it available to others.

Torrenting is a legitimate market force. It is driving prices to a place where more people get more books and authors still make chunks of cash. This is a very good thing for us all.

It's not enough to be patient. I have no doubt that if Australians waited we'd still be stuck back on season 3 of Battlestar Galactica and we'd be getting all excited for this brand new show called _Lost_.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Each person has to make their own decision about whether to pay for a book at the price it's offered or not.  If the choice is not, you can wait for it to come down to the price you're willing to pay, or you can attempt to get it via a Torrent site.  I, personally, think the latter is the same as theft and wouldn't do it, and would never suggest it as an option.  There are plenty of other books to read in the mean time. . .

Others may see things differently. 

No, Matthew, you haven't changed my mind about torrenting. . . . . .


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Each person has to make their own decision about whether to pay for a book at the price it's offered or not. If the choice is not, you can wait for it to come down to the price you're willing to pay, or you can attempt to get it via a Torrent site. I, personally, think the latter is the same as theft and wouldn't do it, and would never suggest it as an option. There are plenty of other books to read in the mean time. . .
> 
> Others may see things differently.
> 
> No, Matthew, you haven't changed my mind about torrenting. . . . . .


What do you suggest we do regarding those 200,000 non-fiction titles forbidden to us?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Matthew, I can't tell you what to do. And, anyway, you've clearly already decided.

What _I_ would do is be disappointed.  But, if it's something I NEEDED or REALLY WANTED, I'd find a way to get it legally. Maybe it would be in paper or maybe via a library. Not ideal, perhaps, but satisfactory.

Or do without.

And still be disappointed.

Maybe even a little angry.

But I'd still not steal it.

meeko, to answer your question. . . . .in your situation I'd put it on my wishlist or get a sample and periodically check back to see if the price has come down. There are also some services that will monitor it and alert you when the price comes down. I have enough on my Kindle that I'll have plenty of things to read while I'm waiting.  About once a month or so I'll look through my wishlist/samples and see if anything has come down to a price I'm willing to pay and, if so, I buy it. There are a couple I really want to read that still haven't after nearly a year. . . .I can wait.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Matthew, I can't tell you what to do. And, anyway, you've clearly already decided.
> 
> What _I_ would do is be disappointed.  But, if it's something I NEEDED or REALLY WANTED, I'd find a way to get it legally. Maybe it would be in paper or maybe via a library. Not ideal, perhaps, but satisfactory.
> 
> ...


I'm not asking you to tell me what to do but I am asking what your solution to _200,000_ forbidden non-fiction titles is. Some yes, you could order in from overseas (expect price to double at least). Some will be in the library. But most will not be available in any way, shape or form that anyone could call "legal".

Or do without ... are you kidding? Access to culture is absolutely vital. Doing without some non-fiction titles on say, knitting, no worries. Doing without non-fiction titles on the ongoing war in Iraq, the economic condition of the world, ideas about how to fix that which is broken -- these are not things we can do without. These ideas are not trivial nothings that don't make a difference. They are as vital to our society as medical knowledge.

It really is a deprivation of the soul food most desperately needed. It might sound over the top but not having access to knowledge and culture is no trivial matter and if the powers-that-be will not help you, you must help yourself.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

mathewferguson said:


> I'm not asking you to tell me what to do but I am asking what your solution to _200,000_ forbidden non-fiction titles is. Some yes, you could order in from overseas (expect price to double at least). Some will be in the library. But most will not be available in any way, shape or form that anyone could call "legal".
> 
> Or do without ... are you kidding? Access to culture is absolutely vital. Doing without some non-fiction titles on say, knitting, no worries. Doing without non-fiction titles on the ongoing war in Iraq, the economic condition of the world, ideas about how to fix that which is broken -- these are not things we can do without. These ideas are not trivial nothings that don't make a difference. They are as vital to our society as medical knowledge.
> 
> It really is a deprivation of the soul food most desperately needed. It might sound over the top but not having access to knowledge and culture is no trivial matter and if the powers-that-be will not help you, you must help yourself.


Let me see if I understand you. You're writing and selling books via Amazon while, at the same time, advocating the pirating of intellectual property of other writers. Is that correct?


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Let me see if I understand you. You're writing and selling books via Amazon while, at the same time, advocating the pirating of intellectual property of other writers. Is that correct?


Absolutely correct.

I'm pro-torrent, pro-pirate and it has nothing to do without trying to get content for free.

Do you have a solution for 200,000 non-fiction titles not available to Australians?


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

mathewferguson said:


> Do you have a solution for 200,000 non-fiction titles not available to Australians?


Move. But not here. We already have too many thieves.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> What do you suggest we do regarding those 200,000 non-fiction titles forbidden to us?


This topic is supposed to be about ebooks which are priced higher than their paper versions - that's not the same thing as a title not being available to you at all. You originally suggested torrenting for titles which ARE available but not ideally priced.

That said, I do think it serves the publishers right. They've gained control over setting their own ebook prices which is not how retailing normally works and then they raise the prices of certain ebooks higher than a new paper version even though ebooks cost less to publish? All because they're scared that ebooks can so easily cut them out of them picture. Now, I'm personally not illegally downloading ebooks but some publishers (*cough*Penguin*cough*) seem to be trying to screw over ebook consumers to discourage the market and therefore I don't see anything wrong with people screwing them over right back! I'm not normally a "rebel" but I do acknowledge that not everything which is legal is moral and not everything which is illegal is immoral.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Move. But not here. We already have too many thieves.


So, don't really care if other people around the world have access to knowledge? Not really important to you I guess? You're perfectly fine with an entire country not having access to 200,000 non-fiction titles?

I've got an experiment for you: change your Amazon address to somewhere here in Melbourne. Say, 1 Moonya Road, Carnegie, Victoria, post code 3163.

Once it's updated (and stripped out all the titles from the shop for you), start browsing the Amazon store and see just how bare it is. Load up your kindle and see if all the great books you're interested in are available.

It's not a trivial matter to be locked out of culture and knowledge.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

mathewferguson said:


> They are simply forbidden to us.


"Forbidden" is a loaded term. Who is doing the forbidding? Is it malicious or economic?


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## Maker (Jun 22, 2010)

I'll always buy the book in its cheapest form. No way I'm paying 9.99 for a Kindle book when I get the paperback for $2.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

history_lover said:


> This topic is supposed to be about ebooks which are priced higher than their paper versions - that's not the same thing as a title not being available to you at all. You originally suggested torrenting for titles which ARE available but not ideally priced.
> 
> That said, I do think it serves the publishers right. They've gained control over setting their own ebook prices which is not how retailing normally works and then they raise the prices of certain ebooks higher than a new paper version even though ebooks cost less to publish? All because they're scared that ebooks can so easily cut them out of them picture. Now, I'm personally not illegally downloading ebooks but some publishers (*cough*Penguin*cough*) seem to be trying to screw over ebook consumers to discourage the market and therefore I don't see anything wrong with people screwing them over right back! I'm not normally a "rebel" but I do acknowledge that not everything which is legal is moral and not everything which is illegal is immoral.


You're right about the topic swerve-- this is just a little side-thread because I'm genuinely interested to see if those anti-torrent people have a workable solution to non-availability on such a gigantic scale.

I guess I see high prices as the same as being unavailable. If something is too expensive it may as well be non-existent.

I do support piracy in pushing down absurd pricing. I know for some people that anything above zero is too much but I think most people recognise there is a value to ebooks and can generally agree on the price. There was another thread on here that put the value at less than $10 in most cases from the range of responses.

Sadly, people confuse tangible goods (so you're saying if the car costs too much you should just steal it to force them to make their other cars cheaper?) with intangible goods and attempt to apply the same rules to both.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

jmiked said:


> "Forbidden" is a loaded term. Who is doing the forbidding? Is it malicious or economic?


According the email I got back from Amazon on this matter:

"Hello,

Publishers grant eBook rights on a country by country basis, as a result availability and pricing of titles in the Kindle Store can vary by your home country or region. We are actively working with publishers to get the rights to all titles for every country and adding more selection every day.

You'll also find helpful information on our "Using Kindle If You Live Outside the United States" Help page (http://www.amazon.com/kindleinternationalsupport).

However I've forwarded your comments to the concerned department for consideration.

Customer feedback like yours helps us continue to improve the service we provide, and we're glad you took time to write to us.

Thanks for using Kindle."

The "forbidding" is economic, based on the old models of distribution that sliced the world into pieces. Is it malicious? Probably not but then again, tacking $2 on each title for Australians based on tiny amounts of data is pretty bad. (Although in some cases this appears to have dropped away so perhaps it'll disappear forever soon).

The people doing the forbidding are the publishers and authors who upload their work to Kindle. That's what really gets to me on this -- there are Indie authors with no print deals in any country at all who have blocked access to anyone outside the US. Why?

I've actually written directly to quite a few authors and publishing companies asking why a certain book isn't available in Australia. I haven't received an answer from anyone, not even the indie authors. It's absurd.

My personal tolerance for having a barrier thrown in front of me simply because I'm standing on this piece of dirt here in Melbourne and not that piece of dirt in New York is zero and I can tell you that plenty of Australians feel the same.

It's not even as though the publisher has blocked Amazon here because some other e-seller has the rights and I can just buy from them. In some cases both the physical and virtual copies do not exist here. I can, in some cases and at great expense, import a paper book but there's no way I'm doing that and continuing to support a system that locks millions of people out of buying books simply because of where they're standing in the world.


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## monkeyluis (Oct 17, 2010)

Just buy it. Every ebook I buy I could buy in a used paperback right on amazon. Look at how many .01 used books there are. But for me it's worth the convience. If it's outrageously priced then I agree just wait or buy it used. I won't comment on Torrenting.


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## PraiseGod13 (Oct 27, 2008)

I won't buy an ebook that's more than the paperback... or in some cases, when it's even more than the HC.  I'll either wait for the price to drop... or get it from the library.
    Torrenting.... there is no justification for stealing.  Absolutely NONE.  I don't rob from a bank because they have millions of dollars that I can't have.  I don't steal from a store because they have jewelry that I can't afford.  Stealing (let's call it what it is) books because you can't have them in the form you want..... no different!


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## kansaskyle (Sep 14, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> What do you suggest we do regarding those 200,000 non-fiction titles forbidden to us?


Move?

Just because something is not available (whether it is due to some kind of restriction or simply at a price you don't want to pay) that doesn't justify stealing it.

If Torrent downloading were prosecuted the same way shoplifting or grand theft auto were, people would find legitimate ways to obtain what they want.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> Sadly, people confuse tangible goods (so you're saying if the car costs too much you should just steal it to force them to make their other cars cheaper?) with intangible goods and attempt to apply the same rules to both.


Rubbish.

Tangible and intangible is the same; whether a book is in physical form or in electronic does not change intellectual property rights.

If we are to accept your argument in then becomes appropriate to steal money - after all most money is now in an intangible, electronic form.

It is ridiculous that you are unable to easily gain access to all books. Stealing them however sends only the message that you are a greedy crook.


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## Geemont (Nov 18, 2008)

Availability is a two way street. Works from Australian authors aren't always available in the USA (I don't have numbers handy).

While I agree that works _should_ be available everywhere someone wants them and the lack of titles down under is disgraceful as you describe it, but I'm not sure turning to the black market is the correct solution. Thieves are thieves. Torrent thieves may lack the viciousness of gangbangers, but they're still thieves, no matter if the copyright holders are dumbasses.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

mathewferguson said:


> What do you suggest we do regarding those 200,000 non-fiction titles forbidden to us?


I suggest you be proactive and and petition the copyright holders to release the titles in your country.


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## RobertMarda (Oct 19, 2010)

I bought my Kindle with the plan to save money because the price of e-books is generally cheaper than the in print version.  So if a book is not cheaper than the print form I will go buy the print version of the book or wait for the e-book's price to go down.


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## ESStobymom (Mar 16, 2009)

I would buy it, or put it on my wish list and see whether the price drops.  I don't know what "Torrent it" means but from the responses it sounds illegal, so that's not something I personally would do.  I have put several books on my wish list and seen them come down in price, but for a book I really wanted, I wouldn't mind paying $4.00 more.


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## monkeyluis (Oct 17, 2010)

pidgeon92 said:


> I suggest you be proactive and and petition the copyright holders to release the titles in your country.


& herein lies the reason for piracy. Publishers just don't get it.


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## kansaskyle (Sep 14, 2010)

ESStobymom said:


> I don't know what "Torrent it" means but from the responses it sounds illegal, so that's not something I personally would do.


"Torrent it" is when someone downloads security-stripped digital content whether it be books, photos, movies, music, software, etc. that is normally protected by copyright laws and some kind of digital rights management (*DRM*) security.

Some of these sites charge a subscription which means the site owners get paid, but the creators of the content get nothing. As you surmised, it is illegal because it deprives the creator from proceeds that would normally come about from your purchase.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

kansaskyle said:


> "Torrent it" is when someone downloads security-stripped digital content whether it be books, photos, movies, music, software, etc. that is normally protected by copyright laws and some kind of digital rights management (*DRM*) security.
> 
> Some of these sites charge a subscription which means the site owners get paid, but the creators of the content get nothing. As you surmised, it is illegal because it deprives the creator from proceeds that would normally come about from your purchase.


I was under the impression it as a reference to the peer-to-peer file sharing protocol called BitTorrent, which is just a way to share and distribute files (particularly large ones) over the internet - the fact that it's often used for illegal distribution doesn't mean that is how the protocol is defined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_(protocol)

(That's not linking correctly so either copy and paste or manually add the last parenthesis)


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## bobavey (Sep 14, 2010)

Obtaining anything illegally is never a good idea.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

monkeyluis said:


> & herein lies the reason for piracy. Publishers just don't get it.


This is the point of petitioning the publishers. You _explain_ it to them.


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## monkeyluis (Oct 17, 2010)

kansaskyle said:


> "Torrent it" is when someone downloads security-stripped digital content whether it be books, photos, movies, music, software, etc. that is normally protected by copyright laws and some kind of digital rights management (*DRM*) security.
> 
> Some of these sites charge a subscription which means the site owners get paid, but the creators of the content get nothing. As you surmised, it is illegal because it deprives the creator from proceeds that would normally come about from your purchase.


Using torrents in itself is not illegal. You can obtain legal content with a torrent. For instance I downloaded ubuntu from ubuntu.org via torrent as opposed to a direct download.


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## monkeyluis (Oct 17, 2010)

pidgeon92 said:


> This is the point of petitioning the publishers. You _explain_ it to them.


Because they ALWAYS listen.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

monkeyluis said:


> Because they ALWAYS listen.


Their choice not to do as you want does not give you the right to steal.

Why is this a difficult concept?


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## HappyGuy (Nov 3, 2008)

mathewferguson,

Please send me un-DRM's files of your two books, they're on Amazon at $0.99, but I don't think I should have to pay to find out about your culture. You can send them to me via PM on this board, I believe. If unable to send via PM (you may not be able to attach a file - not sure), please send them to me at [email protected] as they look rather intriguing.

Thanks in advance!


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## monkeyluis (Oct 17, 2010)

Elk said:


> Their choice not to do as you want does not give you the right to steal.
> 
> Why is this a difficult concept?


No doubt. I never said anything about stealing. I told the OP to wait or buy it used.


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## Cardinal (Feb 24, 2010)

meeko350 said:


> I really want a book but the Kindle price is $4 more than the paperback. Have you ever bought the K version anyway? Or do you wait for the price to drop? I love my Kindle and don't want anymore paperback books. I just wonder how long it will take for the price to drop, or if it ever will.


I wouldn't buy it. I would try to find it at the library and read it for free. If I still wanted a Kindle copy after reading it, I would wait until the price came down.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

I'd wait for it to drop.  Proactively, you can use the "Report lower price" function and sometimes that will cause a price-drop almost immediately.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Arkali said:


> I'd wait for it to drop. Proactively, you can use the "Report lower price" function and sometimes that will cause a price-drop almost immediately.


That's a good point. . . . .immediate feedback to Amazon about why you are NOT purchasing it sometimes helps . . . .


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## kansaskyle (Sep 14, 2010)

monkeyluis said:


> Using torrents in itself is not illegal. You can obtain legal content with a torrent. For instance I downloaded ubuntu from ubuntu.org via torrent as opposed to a direct download.


You are correct, that in and of itself, bit torrent dowloading is not illegal. It is only when users choose to download DRM-stripped material, which is a primary use of this protocol, that this becomes illegal.

Thanks for clarifying though!


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## jenny1983 (Sep 14, 2010)

Interesting conversation. But publishers truly only have themselves to blame for the pirating problem. As has been stated, in many parts of the world, torrents are the only way to acquire popular ebooks. Even though someone is more than willing to pay and wants to acquire the ebook legitimately, they cannot. With new releases being highly touted on the internet and in the press, it is human nature to want equal access to these ebooks. As for buying a paper copy of the book - duh this is why you bought a Kindle.

Electronic distributors are too busy devising code to add to their products in an attempt to stop pirating.  A better approach just might be to make their products available to all.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

I refuse to pay more for a digital copy than a paper version.  I will usually give them negative feedback and move on to the next book.  In cases where I really want or need the book, I will buy itnused.


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## Birstel (Dec 18, 2009)

HappyGuy said:


> mathewferguson,
> 
> Please send me un-DRM's files of your two books, they're on Amazon at $0.99, but I don't think I should have to pay to find out about your culture. You can send them to me via PM on this board, I believe. If unable to send via PM (you may not be able to attach a file - not sure), please send them to me at [email protected] as they look rather intriguing.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Yep because you can't go without your biggie fries for a day. This guy CAN'T buy over 200,000 books. He doesn't have the choice that you do.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

Anybody know why Kindle ebooks available in the US are not available in the UK and/or Australia?

It's not a physical distribution issue.  Amazon can just as easily email them to any user worldwide.

I have trouble accepting that the markets are so small for a publisher not to bother to make arrangements for sales in these countries.


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## mcpingist (Aug 16, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Move. But not here. We already have too many thieves.


My thoughts exactly.


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## monkeyluis (Oct 17, 2010)

KindleChickie said:


> I refuse to pay more for a digital copy than a paper version. I will usually give them negative feedback and move on to the next book. In cases where I really want or need the book, I will buy itnused.


That's not fair to the author to leave negative feedback because of the price.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Elk said:


> Anybody know why Kindle ebooks available in the US are not available in the UK and/or Australia?
> It's not a physical distribution issue. Amazon can just as easily email them to any user worldwide.
> I have trouble accepting that the markets are so small for a publisher not to bother to make arrangements for sales in these countries.


It's normally a case of negotiating international rights agreements. Each book has to have its own agreement, for each country.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

HappyGuy said:


> mathewferguson,
> 
> Please send me un-DRM's files of your two books, they're on Amazon at $0.99, but I don't think I should have to pay to find out about your culture. You can send them to me via PM on this board, I believe. If unable to send via PM (you may not be able to attach a file - not sure), please send them to me at [email protected] as they look rather intriguing.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Go to my website and download them for free. Or go to mininova.org (a torrent site) and download them there. Or google the titles and download them from the hundreds of torrent sites they are on. The files are pdf format.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

monkeyluis said:


> That's not fair to the author to leave negative feedback because of the price.


Life isn't fair.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Wow, I'm astounded that apparently a solution to an entire country (and it's not just Australia by the way but many many countries) being locked out of accessing hundreds of thousands of books is _move_.

I regularly petition publishers and authors for an answer as to why their books are not available to Australians. I'm up to about twenty emails, some twitter direct messaging and I think two messages left on the book forum page on Amazon itself. No answers so far. No one writes back to defend their decision. I find this particularly incredible for Indie authors with no other publishing deals who for some reason won't sell their book to me because I'm sitting here in Melbourne rather than in the US.

So US Kindlers who are anti-torrent - perhaps you can perform this experiment. Change your address to 1 Moonya Road, Carnegie, Melbourne, Victoria, post code 3063. After a few minutes Amazon will only show you the titles available to Australians. Then go for a browse on your Kindle or on Amazon and check out just how many of the books you love are not available.

Are you happy with this? Do you like it when you read a review only to find the book isn't available to you in any form whatsoever.

It is utterly and completely absurd that a US citizen on holiday in Australia with their Kindle has access to hundreds of thousands of titles that I, an Australian living here, do not. We could put our Kindles side-by-side and there would be no difference. What is the only difference? They have a US mailing address and I have an Australian mailing address.

The solution to this idiocy: torrent torrent torrent.


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## monkeyluis (Oct 17, 2010)

KindleChickie said:


> Life isn't fair.


Lol. Ok. I'm sure you're the same type then to blame mcdonalds for people getting fat. C'mon. The reviews are for the product not for the price. It's an abuse of the review system. But hey if you can live with giving an unfair review then that's cool.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

You got the wrong chickie.  I don't eat mcdonalds and don't put much thought into other peoples dietary habits.


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## monkeyluis (Oct 17, 2010)

Didn't say you did.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

And us here in the US have the same problem with PSP games and movies. It's the nature of the beast. Buying a device from a different country and you are limited to their rules. I would love a chotto camera for my PSP, but alas it isn't released in the US. And while we are at it, would love a Jill Stuart limited edition PSP in pink, but it won't play my mud movies from the US.



mathewferguson said:


> Wow, I'm astounded that apparently a solution to an entire country (and it's not just Australia by the way but many many countries) being locked out of accessing hundreds of thousands of books is _move_.
> 
> I regularly petition publishers and authors for an answer as to why their books are not available to Australians. I'm up to about twenty emails, some twitter direct messaging and I think two messages left on the book forum page on Amazon itself. No answers so far. No one writes back to defend their decision. I find this particularly incredible for Indie authors with no other publishing deals who for some reason won't sell their book to me because I'm sitting here in Melbourne rather than in the US.
> 
> ...


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

mathewferguson said:


> Wow, I'm astounded that apparently a solution to an entire country (and it's not just Australia by the way but many many countries) being locked out of accessing hundreds of thousands of books is _move_.
> 
> The solution to this idiocy: torrent torrent torrent.


so your solution is: steal steal steal. OK.. one less author for me to read. Whether your country has legal agreements for the books or not does not give you the legal standing to steal another author's intellectual property. I understand you want the books, and feel right in what you are advocating. However, that doesn't make it right.


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## akpak (Mar 5, 2009)

Please stop calling illegal downloading theft. It's not. Theft (as per law) is partially defined as the deprivation of a physical good. Since digital "goods" are not physical, then there can't be "theft." Obtaining something for "free" that others pay for isn't "stealing" if the something isn't physical.

The term your looking for is "infringement." That's what it is: Copyright Infringement. Yes, you're denying the creator a possible sale, but in Mathew's case he CAN'T choose to purchase these things legally.

Even in the US, copyright law is under serious scrutiny, and the only way things get changed is if people change it. And the only way anything *truly* gets changed is by people voting with their wallets. Things start to change when the distribution industry starts losing money...

In your case, Mathew, I would be doing the exact same thing.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

akpak said:


> Please stop calling illegal downloading theft. It's not. Theft (as per law) is partially defined as the deprivation of a physical good. Since digital "goods" are not physical, then there can't be "theft."


Absolute nonsense.

Theft is the unlawful taking of another's _property_. This property need not be physical for it to be theft.

An easy example is credit card fraud. It's a form of theft - but no physical property is taken, only electronic non-physical money.

Similarly the illegal taking of intellectual property is a theft.

It's amazing the degree to which some can justify commission of a knowingly criminal act.


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## meeko350 (Aug 25, 2010)

Wow, sorry I started a topic that caused such controversy.  I would not consider stealing it and had no idea what torrent meant.  I guess if I lived in another country and the book didn't show up on Amazon, I probably wouldn't know it existed anyway so wouldn't have cause to even consider stealing it.  

Matthew, I'm wondering how you know about all of the titles not available to you if you have absolutely no access to them and they don't show up in your searches?  Are you just going by numbers, or what?  Just curious.  Also, would you be able to obtain books from a US resident once Amazon starts the book lending feature?

Also, thanks Arkali for your suggestion.  I wasn't aware of the report lower price function.  I will definitely try that.  Hopefully the price will go down soon.  Otherwise, I'll just read something else in the meantime.


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## PraiseGod13 (Oct 27, 2008)

Elk said:


> Absolute nonsense.
> 
> Theft is the unlawful taking of another's _property_. This property need not be physical for it to be theft.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Bravo!!


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm patient. If a book is priced higher than I'm willing to pay (and higher than the paperback price or above $10 is more than I'm willing to pay), then I'll just get the book from the library, or wait for the book to come down in price. I have plenty of stuff to read on my Kindle anyway.

But, no, I wouldn't steal it. I don't have the _right_ to have every book available to me electronically at the price I want it to be. Individual authors (or publishers, should the authors sign their rights over to them) get to decide the price and availability. That is _their_ right, for their lifetimes + 70 years. If the book is priced too high for my tastes, I buy a different book instead.

That being said, I have no idea why JK Rowling won't let her books be released as e-books. I have no idea why publishers can't get their acts together and work out digital distribution rights better than they currently are. And I can't imagine why an indie author would block sales of their e-books to Australia or anywhere else. But, that is their right if they make that decision. It doesn't give me the right to read that book for free just because I want to. I buy another book instead and move on.


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## mooshie78 (Jul 15, 2010)

I wouldn't.  I won't pay more for an e-book than a paper book.

I also wouldn't pirate it as others have suggested.  Not liking the price of something is no justification for acquiring it illegally.

There are millions more books out there than I'll ever read.  If I don't like the price on something I'm interested in, I vote with my wallet by buying another e-book I want to read that's priced reasonably.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> Absolutely correct.
> 
> I'm pro-torrent, pro-pirate and it has nothing to do without trying to get content for free.
> 
> Do you have a solution for 200,000 non-fiction titles not available to Australians?


Move or put on your big boy pants and deal with it. But please don't move to the U.S. We really don't like thieves here. You have incredible gall to encourage people to punish and rip off authors because you're too cheap to pay the price the publisher set.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2010)

history_lover said:


> This topic is supposed to be about ebooks which are priced higher than their paper versions - that's not the same thing as a title not being available to you at all. You originally suggested torrenting for titles which ARE available but not ideally priced.
> 
> That said, I do think it serves the publishers right. They've gained control over setting their own ebook prices which is not how retailing normally works and then they raise the prices of certain ebooks higher than a new paper version even though ebooks cost less to publish? All because they're scared that ebooks can so easily cut them out of them picture. Now, I'm personally not illegally downloading ebooks but some publishers (*cough*Penguin*cough*) seem to be trying to screw over ebook consumers to discourage the market and therefore I don't see anything wrong with people screwing them over right back! I'm not normally a "rebel" but I do acknowledge that not everything which is legal is moral and not everything which is illegal is immoral.


What about the author? Is it okay to screw them too? Cause when you STEAL you take income away from them. You do realize that the vast majority of authors have no control over the price of their books?


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2010)

KindleChickie said:


> I refuse to pay more for a digital copy than a paper version. I will usually give them negative feedback and move on to the next book. In cases where I really want or need the book, I will buy itnused.


Wow..another person who thinks it's just dandy to punish an author because they are unhappy with the price of their book. That is so out of line! An author doesn't deserve a bad review because you refuse to pay the price of their book-the publisher sets the price, not them!


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2010)

David Derrico said:


> That being said, I have no idea why JK Rowling won't let her books be released as e-books.


She's ignorant. From what I've read she insists ebooks can be freely edited by anyone that buys them and has stubbornly refused to understand she's wrong. Therefore she refuses to let her books be made into ebooks.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

NYCKindleFan said:


> What about the author? Is it okay to screw them too? Cause when you STEAL you take income away from them. *You do realize that the vast majority of authors have no control over the price of their books?*


Which is exactly why the authors are better off without certain publishers anyway - the authors should have more decision making power than the publishers but at the moment, they don't. Although illegal downloads may initially hurt sales for the author (though frankly, they don't seem to be struggling at the moment so you'll forgive me if I don't go into a panic over it), I think it will do them good in the long run as it takes power away from the publishers and gives more to the readers and authors.

As I already stated I'm personally not illegally downloading anything. I just don't have a hissy fit over those who are. History is full of the public doing illegal things in order to make a statement and bring about change in a system that is corrupt and unethically abused. Granted, I don't condone that if people are actually getting hurt, I'm not encouraging terrorism or anything! But illegal downloads aren't going to kill anyone, they're not even going to make authors go broke. Musicians are still making millions so lets not assume authors are suddenly going to become homeless.

And okay, not all publishers fit this bill but some do and we need to somehow make it clear to them we will not put up with it and I do believe this is the most effective method. You can be as outraged and indignant as you like, you're not going to change my mind.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

NYCKindleFan said:


> Move or put on your big boy pants and deal with it. But please don't move to the U.S. We really don't like thieves here. You have incredible gall to encourage people to punish and rip off authors because you're too cheap to pay the price the publisher set.


I'm really quite astounded to meet a group of people who appear to not care in the slightest that entire countries are locked out of accessing hundreds of thousands of ebooks.

Put on my big boy pants and deal with it? And another person suggests I _move_. Good to see you've come up with some workable and rational actions for me and all the other millions of people who don't live in the US. Thanks for your contribution!

Perhaps I'll give you another chance. Try to step out of America-vision for just a moment (I know it'll be hard) and pretend you live in another country. You live here in Australia with a whole lot of other humans who are just like you, except they happen to live on a different piece of dirt. You can't access some 200,000 non-fiction titles and no one else in your community can either.

Do you think that perhaps this is wrong? That perhaps you have a right to access knowledge and that just maybe your location on the planet is immaterial.

Can you understand that absolutely nothing will change unless you take a hand in changing it?

You know, protest is a legitimate way to effect change and this is exactly what torrenting is: protest. It rejects the old way of cutting the world into pieces.

I absolutely advocate piracy/torrenting/DRM cracking for those who cannot access books in any other way. Those who want to pay nothing for any ebook should be publicly flogged but there is a big difference between people who torrent because they don't like price gouging and those who just want to steal.

Really, try to make the effort to imagine what it would be like to be locked out a world culture for no reason. I'm sure you simply wouldn't sit back and take it.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

mathewferguson said:


> Perhaps I'll give you another chance. Try to step out of America-vision for just a moment (I know it'll be hard) and pretend you live in another country. You live here in Australia with a whole lot of other humans who are just like you, except they happen to live on a different piece of dirt. You can't access some 200,000 non-fiction titles and no one else in your community can either.


you know, you keep saying this, but there are books we Americans do not have access to also. We just don't advocate stealing them to get them. In general we believe in paying a person for their work, and if a book is downloaded via torrent illegally, then the author cannot get paid. 
Have you tried contacting the authors directly? have you truly exhausted ALL legal means at your disposal? if so, then just wait. Seriously WAIT. Amazon is always working on those international agreements. When the K1 came out it wasn't even available at all outside of the USA, Now that it is, they are working on the book rights. Give them TIME. Stop expecting everything instantaneously.
Here in America you have the Rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. There is nothing that says you have the RIGHT to someone else's hard work for FREE.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

meeko350 said:


> Matthew, I'm wondering how you know about all of the titles not available to you if you have absolutely no access to them and they don't show up in your searches? Are you just going by numbers, or what? Just curious. Also, would you be able to obtain books from a US resident once Amazon starts the book lending feature?


I knew the Australian store was crippled because I'd read it somewhere. Then one day (before I had bought a Kindle) I spoofed my IP so it appeared I was coming from the US. I then opened a tab with the Australian store and started comparing. That's when I noticed the 400,000+ titles not available to Australians (and the $2 delivery charged tacked on each download). Here is the comparison image I made a few weeks ago: http://i.imgur.com/aCHwp.jpg

I'm not sure how the lending feature will work across territories. Honestly, it won't affect me much. I'm buying any title I want without any location restrictions because the barriers placed down can be skipped around if you know what you're doing. I'd just rather not have to break the law so I can have the opportunity to hand my money over. Well over half the books I've bought recently are not available in my region (legally). One Australian author actually has his titles blocked from Australia! It's ridiculous.

This is one of the reasons I'm pro-torrent: I'm absolutely not doing anything wrong by attempting to pay an author so I can read their work. Yet, because of an old and soon-to-be defunct system, I have to break the law if I want to give them my money in exchange for their words. When I can't do that, I'll torrent in the hope that one day, someone will notice the millions of illegal downloads coming from Australia and perhaps decide to cease this idiotic rights nonsense.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

mathewferguson said:


> Perhaps I'll give you another chance.


No, thank you. You will get no support or help from me in your publishing efforts.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm really feeling like this topic has gone on long enough. . . and I'm pretty sure no one's mind is being changed. . . the rhetoric is just getting . . . . less polite.  . . .going to lock it for a bit, let passions calm down. . . .and discuss among other mods.


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