# Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth Book discussion for Part I chapters 1-4



## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

Ok we don't have an official book klub volunteer at this point so I'm just going to start a general discussion and have this one be for chapters 1-5 so that we don't have to worry about spoilers. 

I'm only to chapter 3 so I'll come back and post when I'm done with chapter 5.


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

Rasputina said:


> Ok we don't have an official book klub volunteer at this point so I'm just going to start a general discussion and have this one be for chapters 1-5 so that we don't have to worry about spoilers.
> 
> I'm only to chapter 3 so I'll come back and post when I'm done with chapter 5.


I guess I better start readiing. I hope I can catch up now.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Anne said:


> I guess I better start readiing. I hope I can catch up now.


Me too! I'm almost finished with the book I'm reading now & "Pillars" is next in line.


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

Meemo said:


> Me too! I'm almost finished with the book I'm reading now & "Pillars" is next in line.


I am glad I am not the only one who has not started it yet.


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## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

no problem, I've been really busy and haven't read anymore yet.


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

Rasputina said:


> no problem, I've been really busy and haven't read anymore yet.


I just started it so far its good. I was giong to ask about the chapters. But I just checked the Table of Contents. I see the chapters now.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Anne said:


> I just started it so far its good. I was giong to ask about the chapters. But I just checked the Table of Contents. I see the chapters now.


I looked at the chapters this morning too - those must be some LONG chapters - not that many, and it is indeed broken up into 6 parts like the Oprah book club discussion questions are.


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

Meemo said:


> I looked at the chapters this morning too - those must be some LONG chapters - not that many, and it is indeed broken up into 6 parts like the Oprah book club discussion questions are.


The chapters are long. If we discuss the first five chapters. Does that mean we are discuss all of part 1? That would be chapers 1-4.


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## jaspertyler (Feb 13, 2009)

I think I got through this so far!!!  I am listening to it in my car


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## docjered (Apr 12, 2009)

I absolutely loved both of the books in this group. Finish reading, start talking, and I will join in!


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## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

Anne said:


> The chapters are long. If we discuss the first five chapters. Does that mean we are discuss all of part 1? That would be chapers 1-4.


That sounds good, I just picked 1-5 randomly.


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

Rasputina said:


> That sounds good, I just picked 1-5 randomly.


Thanks if we do it that way it might be easier to discuss the book.


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## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

I'm leaving town in a couple days and will be gone at least a week, maybe 2. I'll check in when I can, I will be bringing the laptop and I'll have my iphone but I'm not sure how much reading time I'll get in. I'll try and keep up.


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

Rasputina said:


> I'm leaving town in a couple days and will be gone at least a week, maybe 2. I'll check in when I can, I will be bringing the laptop and I'll have my iphone but I'm not sure how much reading time I'll get in. I'll try and keep up.


Check in when you can. I am not sure how much reading time I will get in either. I work and I am in school online. I am enjoying the book so far and its a nice treat for me after I finish my school work for the day.


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

I am posting the link to the Oprah Guide to Pillars of the Earth again that Meemo posted in the other thread. It looks like it has Parts 1-6. There are questions and plot points for each part.http://www.oprah.com/article/oprahsbookclub/pillarsoftheearth/pote_guide_part1/1


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## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

Um, chapter one is so depressing that I'm not sure I want to go on right now.


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

Rasputina said:


> Um, chapter one is so depressing that I'm not sure I want to go on right now.


I am up to chapter two. So far I like it. I hope I am not going to be reading alone.


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## jaspertyler (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm still reading it   It is pretty good!


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

jaspertyler said:


> I'm still reading it  It is pretty good!


Oh good I am not the only one reading it.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

I started in earnest - and yep, so far it's really depressing and I'm glad I wasn't living in 1123!  (Or 11-whatever, book isn't here by me...)  But I also want to know what happens next.


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

Meemo said:


> I started in earnest - and yep, so far it's really depressing and I'm glad I wasn't living in 1123! (Or 11-whatever, book isn't here by me...) But I also want to know what happens next.


I agree parts of the story are really depressing and I am also glad I did not live in 1123. I do want to keep reading to see what happens next.


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## danfan (Apr 17, 2009)

A note to anyone who read this from a sample at first, like me:  The sample started in at Chapter 1 so I missed the fact that there was a Prologue & so missed an important opening. When I bought the full book, I started reading at the end of the sample & missed it again. I was 1/3 of the way through the book, not liking Ellen at all, when I happened to go to the TOC and see that there was a Prologue. Then I thought "Ahhh so much is clearer now!"

I didn't really find it depressing, as others have said. Gloomy times though, I agree. Having not read the Prologue when I read Part 1, I hated Ellen. I thought she was a witch right away, and couldn't bear what happened between her & Tom, and then the baby. I thought she had very strong ulterior motives & couldn't believe that she loved him. After reading the Prologue, I think things are deeper with her than I originally thought & really look forward to learning a lot more. 

I'm fascinated my the masonry stuff. I used to know a stone mason who worked on some of the old English cathedrals, and memories of all those school trips around the cathedrals and old Priory ruins all came flooding back. Wish I'd paid more attention instead of being a bored teenager!


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## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

I don't have any problems with Ellen, the poverty of the family is depressing and especially hard given the current economic situation happening in the world. I couldn't understand why they would leave poor Martha in charge of the pig and lagging behind when it was the only thing that would keep them from starvation. If something is of that dire importance to the family I would keep it in the charge of an adult. Especially since it seems they knew their were outlaws in the forest. It just seems unbelievably careless for a family so close to starvation.


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## jaspertyler (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree re: having Martha watch the pig.  

I don't know how far I am in the book, but it is about monks right now.  I want it to get back to the family


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## Anne (Oct 29, 2008)

Rasputina said:


> I don't have any problems with Ellen, the poverty of the family is depressing and especially hard given the current economic situation happening in the world. I couldn't understand why they would leave poor Martha in charge of the pig and lagging behind when it was the only thing that would keep them from starvation. If something is of that dire importance to the family I would keep it in the charge of an adult. Especially since it seems they knew their were outlaws in the forest. It just seems unbelievably careless for a family so close to starvation.


I do not have any problem with Ellen either. I agree about Martha and the pig it was silly to leave such a young child in charge of it. I am not sure if I am right about this. I think in those days young children were left in charge of the animals. Everyone one had a job to do even the young children. I am still reading chapter. I am at the part about the monks also.


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## danfan (Apr 17, 2009)

Anne said:


> I do not have any problem with Ellen either. I agree about Martha and the pig it was silly to leave such a young child in charge of it. I am not sure if I am right about this. I think in those days young children were left in charge of the animals. Everyone one had a job to do even the young children. I am still reading chapter. I am at the part about the monks also.


Yes, I agree children did have to do things like that. What was more silly than her minding the pig was the distance between them - they knew how dangerous the roads were for travellers yet she was a hundred yards away from them.

Ellen grew on me. Actually, Tom angered me most I think, lusting after Ellen immediately then jumping in the sack with her the moment he could. Poor Agnes. 

I'm partway through the next book now, but I'll try to keep up with this discussion.


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## Neekeebee (Jan 10, 2009)

I sampled the book because of this thread, and just had to buy it.  I will lurk and try to catch up.

N


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## cjpatrick (Jan 4, 2009)

Tom's jumping in the sack with Ellen peeved me a little too. I was trying to understand it the best that I could. I suppose when you're grief stricken and someone is there willing to comfort you when everything else is going terribly awry you aren't thinking clearly.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Okay, I finished Part 1 (first 4 chapters) today - the discussion from the Oprah website divides it up by the six parts. Thinking I started later than some and haven't exactly been reading like a house afire, so hopefully most of us are here by now. So I'm posting the questions from the Oprah site to throw them open for discussion. If you aren't done with Part 1 you might want to skip the questions, you might see some spoilers.

I haven't really participated in any of the KB book clubs & have never done a book club at all. But having lurked on the Outlander book club discussion, just want to throw out there that we don't have to answer every question - don't have to answer any if we don't want to. Just things to think about - and other reader's answers can maybe give us different angles for thinking about things. I'm just now looking at them myself so don't have any thoughts of my own ready yet.

And here's a repost of the link to the Oprah discussion questions - those of you who are ahead might want to check out the discussion questions for the next part(s) - plus I think (I hope!) it helps keep us "legal". http://www.oprah.com/article/oprahsbookclub/pillarsoftheearth/pote_guide_part1/1

The Pillars of the Earth: Part 1
Reading Questions

1. "Tom had been offered the post of builder to the Exeter castellan, repairing and improving the city's fortifications. It would have been a lifetime job, barring accidents. But Tom had turned it down, for he wanted to build another cathedral" (p. 23). Do you think Tom should have taken the position? Have you ever passed up a sure thing in pursuit of your life's passion?

2. After being released from building William Hamleigh's stone house, Tom demands payment for himself and his workers according to custom. William stops work because the Lady Aliena has refused to marry him, breaking tradition. What roles do custom and tradition play in the first part of the book? Which customs and traditions are upheld? Which ones are broken?

3. Why do you think William Hamleigh is so afraid of hell?

4. Tom leaves his newborn son to the elements after Agnes dies from childbirth. Do you think he did the right thing? What other options did he have?

5. Once Tom discovers where his newborn son is, he considers trying to get him back. What would you have done? Do you think Tom would have succeeded?

6. Tom proposes to Ellen very soon after the death of his first wife? Why do you think he did this? Can he truly love another woman so soon after the loss of his wife?

7. Compare and contrast Agnes and Ellen. Is one woman stronger than the other? How did their different styles of motherhood affect their children? Which do you think is a better complement for Tom?

8. When we meet Prior Philip, he reminds another monk of the importance of poverty, chastity and abstinence. How does Prior Philip invoke this general idea in other situations throughout Part One? Does it benefit his efforts, or harm them?

9. Why does Prior Philip agree to take in the abandoned baby? Are his reasons altruistic, or selfish-given the fact that his own family was taken from him? How is the order like a family? What needs does it fulfill, and which ones are still lacking in the brotherhood?

10. When discussing the crowning of a new king with his brother Francis, Philip thinks, "Stephen's relationship with the Church had been defined, right at the start of his reign, on the Church's terms. But perhaps even more important was the precedent. The Church had to crown kings but until now it had not had the right to lay down conditions. The time might come when no king could come to power without first striking a deal with the Church" (p. 105-106). What are Philip's motives? How could this benefit the church? How could it backfire? What relationship, if any, should church and state have?

11. What are your first impressions of Waleran Bigod? Is he a devout man at heart, or does he have something up his sleeve? Is Philip his ally or his pawn?

12. Aliena values happiness over honor and alliances. Did she make the right choice?

13. What effect does killing a man have on William Hamleigh?

14. William acts disrespectful toward women-berating Aliena and offering to buy Ellen. But after he successfully invades Earl Bartholomew's castle, he seeks the approval of his mother. "William's heart was warmed by her praise, and he grinned foolishly" (p. 20. Why does William respect his mother, but no other woman?

15. What do you think is the real reason Ellen decides to leave Tom and Kingsbridge?


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## danfan (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm at work so probably won't be able to get through all the questions, (& I can't remember it all, either) but I'll come back to some later.

*1. "Tom had been offered the post of builder to the Exeter castellan, repairing and improving the city's fortifications. It would have been a lifetime job, barring accidents. But Tom had turned it down, for he wanted to build another cathedral" (p. 23). Do you think Tom should have taken the position? Have you ever passed up a sure thing in pursuit of your life's passion?*
If Tom had taken the job, he still would have been building - not stuck in a dead end job that he hated. OTOH, he had a dream & I've given up good reliable stead careers to do what I want, so I can't blame him completely.

* 2. After being released from building William Hamleigh's stone house, Tom demands payment for himself and his workers according to custom. William stops work because the Lady Aliena has refused to marry him, breaking tradition. What roles do custom and tradition play in the first part of the book? Which customs and traditions are upheld? Which ones are broken?*
I don't remember all of that, but craftsmen & regular folk probably got by very well with their customs and unwritten rules. William, like a lot of nobility, thinks he is way above everyone else and can do what he likes. 
*
3. Why do you think William Hamleigh is so afraid of hell?*
I assumed his parents or Priest put the fear of hell into him.

* 4. Tom leaves his newborn son to the elements after Agnes dies from childbirth. Do you think he did the right thing? What other options did he have?*
So few options. He couldn't feed himself or growing children - what hope did he have for a newborn baby? I don't think he did the right thing necessarily but what else would he do - carry the baby until it starved to death?

* 5. Once Tom discovers where his newborn son is, he considers trying to get him back. What would you have done? Do you think Tom would have succeeded?*
That's a tough one. I think if Ellen hadn't been there, then he would have tried. I'm not sure what would have happened... Perhaps Philip would have understood & helped rather than have him tried for murder.

* 6. Tom proposes to Ellen very soon after the death of his first wife? Why do you think he did this? Can he truly love another woman so soon after the loss of his wife?*
Well, I didn't get that at all. He does love her - or maybe just infatuated by her. A person can love 2 people at once, I am sure, but it made me shudder.

will try to get to the other questions later.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Silly me kept reading without answering the first group of questions, last night I turned the page & I was on Part III! Yikes. So I'll probably be pretty brief answering these Part I questions, since I might get confused & let out a spoiler or two.

1. "Tom had been offered the post of builder to the Exeter castellan, repairing and improving the city's fortifications. It would have been a lifetime job, barring accidents. But Tom had turned it down, for he wanted to build another cathedral" (p. 23). Do you think Tom should have taken the position? Have you ever passed up a sure thing in pursuit of your life's passion?
*Probably not - either way he would have regrets and "what ifs" for the rest of his life. One thing I've learned from life is that things that sometimes seem like huge disappointments (or in Tom's case tragedies) at the time they happen can lead to wonderful & unexpected opportunities down the line. I think I've more or less lived out my life's passion. *

2. After being released from building William Hamleigh's stone house, Tom demands payment for himself and his workers according to custom. William stops work because the Lady Aliena has refused to marry him, breaking tradition. What roles do custom and tradition play in the first part of the book? Which customs and traditions are upheld? Which ones are broken?
*Afraid to say too much here in case I reveal something that hasn't happened yet (here's where it would be nice to flip through a DTB to make sure I'm not getting ahead of the question). Obviously Ellen's life goes pretty much against tradition. The monks' taking Jonathan in also seems to go against custom. *

3. Why do you think William Hamleigh is so afraid of hell?
*Aside from the fact that he's pretty obviously headed there...I'm sure some clergyman or relative (or both) have made him afraid of it. *

4. Tom leaves his newborn son to the elements after Agnes dies from childbirth. Do you think he did the right thing? What other options did he have?
*He thought it was wrong, which is why he went back. But he also thought he had no choice, and it wasn't unheard of at the time. He could've done what he went back to do - kept him with them hoping to come across someone who could help them. *

5. Once Tom discovers where his newborn son is, he considers trying to get him back. What would you have done? Do you think Tom would have succeeded?
*As a mother, yes I would've tried to get him back...I don't think I could've done anything else. Success, however, is questionable - *

6. Tom proposes to Ellen very soon after the death of his first wife? Why do you think he did this? Can he truly love another woman so soon after the loss of his wife?
*I think it's entirely possible to love someone that quickly, although whether it's truly love (not lust or grief or infatuation) can only be told by time. I think he did it because he needed her, both emotionally and practically. *

7. Compare and contrast Agnes and Ellen. Is one woman stronger than the other? How did their different styles of motherhood affect their children? Which do you think is a better complement for Tom?
*I think they're both strong, just in different ways. Hard to say (after part 1) which is a better complement for Tom. *

8. When we meet Prior Philip, he reminds another monk of the importance of poverty, chastity and abstinence. How does Prior Philip invoke this general idea in other situations throughout Part One? Does it benefit his efforts, or harm them?
*Have to think about this one....*

9. Why does Prior Philip agree to take in the abandoned baby? Are his reasons altruistic, or selfish-given the fact that his own family was taken from him? How is the order like a family? What needs does it fulfill, and which ones are still lacking in the brotherhood?
*I don't think there was a lot of selfishness in it - it was more a matter of following the example that had been set when he was taken in. I think the order is more or less set up as a family - certain members have certain roles. This one was missing a strong "father figure" (prior) and has its dysfunctions (jealousy, rivalry, etc) like any family. *

10. When discussing the crowning of a new king with his brother Francis, Philip thinks, "Stephen's relationship with the Church had been defined, right at the start of his reign, on the Church's terms. But perhaps even more important was the precedent. The Church had to crown kings but until now it had not had the right to lay down conditions. The time might come when no king could come to power without first striking a deal with the Church" (p. 105-106). What are Philip's motives? How could this benefit the church? How could it backfire? What relationship, if any, should church and state have?


11. What are your first impressions of Waleran Bigod? Is he a devout man at heart, or does he have something up his sleeve? Is Philip his ally or his pawn?
*Didn't trust him from the get-go. It was obvious to me that there was something going on and that he was withholding something from Philip.*

12. Aliena values happiness over honor and alliances. Did she make the right choice?
*Probably (can't say too much here).*

13. What effect does killing a man have on William Hamleigh?
*An unfortunate one - he likes it a bit too much.*

14. William acts disrespectful toward women-berating Aliena and offering to buy Ellen. But after he successfully invades Earl Bartholomew's castle, he seeks the approval of his mother. "William's heart was warmed by her praise, and he grinned foolishly" (p. 20. Why does William respect his mother, but no other woman?
*Short answer - he's messed up. Probably the very thing that makes him want her praise is what makes him disrespect other women - she's not exactly a pleasant person. *

15. What do you think is the real reason Ellen decides to leave Tom and Kingsbridge?
*She may know what Jack did & wants to get him away before he's found out. She may truly have had enough of Jack's being bullied. Just not quite sure yet. *

Not great answers for some of these, probably because I've already gone too far past them. I think I'll go on & post the Part II questions as a separate thread & see if anyone's interested in continuing with the discussion. Liking the book though - my daughter read it last summer - asked me how I was liking it & said it started slow for her but really picked up around the middle. Which is about where I am now.


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## Neekeebee (Jan 10, 2009)

*The Pillars of the Earth: Part 1
Reading Questions

1. "Tom had been offered the post of builder to the Exeter castellan, repairing and improving the city's fortifications. It would have been a lifetime job, barring accidents. But Tom had turned it down, for he wanted to build another cathedral" (p. 23). Do you think Tom should have taken the position? Have you ever passed up a sure thing in pursuit of your life's passion?*
Hard to say whether he did the right thing. I can understand pursuing your life's passion, but he was a family man too and that sometimes means giving priority to being able to support your family. I found myself wondering whether Tom regretted his choice after Agnes died and he had to abandon the baby.

* 3. Why do you think William Hamleigh is so afraid of hell?*
I wondered when I read this if his father was one of the men cursed by Ellen in the Prologue and William had been warned by his father.

* 4. Tom leaves his newborn son to the elements after Agnes dies from childbirth. Do you think he did the right thing? What other options did he have?*
He really felt like he had no choice, and clearly it was a difficult decision, as he went back for the baby. I think in Tom's mind, it was sacrificing the newborn in order to better care for Alfred and Martha.

* 6. Tom proposes to Ellen very soon after the death of his first wife? Why do you think he did this? Can he truly love another woman so soon after the loss of his wife?*
This is the only part of the book that bothered me. I found it objectionable that Tom could sleep with Ellen on the same day that his beloved wife Agnes died giving birth to his son.

* 7. Compare and contrast Agnes and Ellen. Is one woman stronger than the other? How did their different styles of motherhood affect their children? Which do you think is a better complement for Tom?*
They are each strong in different ways. Agnes is more solid and reliable. Tom probably feels more passion for Ellen, but at the same time, she is more willful more likely to drive him crazy.

* 11. What are your first impressions of Waleran Bigod? Is he a devout man at heart, or does he have something up his sleeve? Is Philip his ally or his pawn?*
I was surprised that Philip was so quick to entrust Waleran with his secret, especially since one of the first words used to describe Waleran was "spiderlike" or something like that.

* 15. What do you think is the real reason Ellen decides to leave Tom and Kingsbridge?*
I think she is distrustful of the church in general due to the events in the Prologue. She probably has been having a difficult time justifying to herself that Tom's love and Jack's social development is worth getting involved with the Church. Tom's taking Philip's side is the last straw, and Ellen, being strong-willed and impulsive, decides to leave without thinking too much about it.

N


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## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

skipping the questions since I haven't finished. I just want to apologize for not keeping up, since I started the thread and wanted a book klub. Between my husband getting laid off, us going out of town for 10 days and now I'm sick I just haven't read that book. I'll try and see if I can catch up in the next week or so.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Rasputina said:


> skipping the questions since I haven't finished. I just want to apologize for not keeping up, since I started the thread and wanted a book klub. Between my husband getting laid off, us going out of town for 10 days and now I'm sick I just haven't read that book. I'll try and see if I can catch up in the next week or so.


And I keep reading too far and not answering the questions, then I'm afraid to post anything because it might be a spoiler. Maybe I should just wait until I finish the whole thing.


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