# Moving Away from Profanity



## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm going to try to write with little or no profanity in the future.  I've had a few readers over the years complain about it.  On the flip side, I've never heard a reader say "I sure liked those dirty words!"  So I guess I'll give it a shot.  Nobody loses, some people gain.

I recently received a four-star that included this: "It would have been better without the f-word."  That was the deciding vote, I guess.  

I don't want this to be a thread about whether profanity is good or bad, makes characters feel more real, whether it requires more or less skill, is an indicator of intelligence, or whatever.  We've had that one too many times already.  But I'm wondering if anybody else ever changed their ways on this.

ETA:

I'm sure that it'll only be a page or two before it's just another argument about whether it should or shouldn't be used.  

That's not really what I'm after.  I simply want to know if anybody else ever changed their stance on it and wrote differently.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Good luck.


----------



## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm not sure what you want this thread to be then, but I've got popcorn.

As for me, I've sure changed my ways. The f-word has crossed my lips in real life maybe once or twice, although I'll use other sweary words that are perceived less severe.

But I sure use it a lot in fiction, when called-for. Also on my blog. I love it. Fiction allows us to throw these real-life restraints out the window. It's awesome.


----------



## Cege Smith (Dec 11, 2011)

I'd say that I see more language popping into my stories these days then when I first started out. I've had a few comments on my first book where people where commenting that they appreciated that there wasn't really any language or sexual themes to speak of, and so they felt comfortable giving the book to their teen to read. I take that as a nice compliment, even though that wasn't an intentional omission on my part.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I do not get negative comments about the lack of profanity in my books, so it makes it a non-issue.


----------



## Carolyn J. Rose Mystery Writer (Aug 10, 2010)

I worked in TV News for many years and used plenty of profanity because so did everyone else. When my husband and I wrote The Hard Karma Shuffle, it was a minefield of F-bombs. When we revised it earlier this year, we deleted most if not all of them because they didn't make the story or characters any better or more interesting. I've become much more selective about what to slip in and what to leave out.


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

daveconifer said:


> I'm going to try to write with little or no profanity in the future. I've had a few readers over the years complain about it. On the flip side, I've never heard a reader say "I sure liked those dirty words!" So I guess I'll give it a shot. Nobody loses, some people gain.
> 
> I recently received a four-star that included this: "It would have been better without the f-word." That was the deciding vote, I guess.
> 
> I don't want this to be a thread about whether profanity is good or bad, makes characters feel more real, whether it requires more or less skill, is an indicator of intelligence, or whatever. We've had that one too many times already. But I'm wondering if anybody else ever changed their ways on this.


I've got the unapologetic mouth of a sailor in real life; my casual conversation is peppered with it. If people don't like it then I invite them not to talk to me.

It does carry over into my writing. Some people have complained about my profanity, but they've also complained about the level of brutality with which I display violence. However, I have sold very well and to me, more than any review, my bank account is the deciding factor.

Well...kind of...I write for me first and foremost. But I can't say I wouldn't try changing something if the numbers weren't there.


----------



## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'm not sure what you want this thread to be then, but I've got popcorn.
> 
> As for me, I've sure changed my ways. The f-word has crossed my lips in real life maybe once or twice, although I'll use other sweary words that are perceived less severe.
> 
> But I sure use it a lot in fiction, when called-for. Also on my blog. I love it. Fiction allows us to throw these real-life restraints out the window. It's awesome.


LOL. I'm sure that it'll only be a page or two before it's just another argument about whether it should or shouldn't be used.

I simply want to know if anybody else changed their stance on it and wrote differently.


----------



## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I don't use bad language in my books. I save it for my children.


----------



## Guest (Oct 29, 2014)

I think it strongly depends on the genre and the character. Most of my books have some swearing, but I think cursing is like a spice. It should be sprinkled lightly to enhance the flavor of your prose, rather than dumped on willy-nilly. My toddler recently poured half a bottle of pepper into his morning egg while we were cooking it. Using my analogy, that would be like a frat party with all that swearing. LOL.


----------



## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

Every book signing I have done, I have people ask me if there is any sex in the book and/or they ask if there is foul language.  I have never had anyone turn down the book because I said no.  But I have had people turn it down because I say yes to either one.  No one cares about the level of violence though.


----------



## Guest (Oct 29, 2014)

I can understand removing some of the cursing, but there are times in dialogue or description when it can add that added emotional punch.

If you think of how you use profanity in real life, it generally crops up a lot more during times of surprise, when you drop something, miss a turn or something similar.

You can keep the cursing to a minimum, but keeping some in will make the story more realistic. Or, you could go the sci-fi/fantasy route and make your own words like Frack/Frick from Farscape.


----------



## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

Heh. The only two-star I've gotten on one of my books said, "If you're a fan of Stephen King or foul language, you'll enjoy this book." I can't count that as a negative review.


----------



## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

I've just had a beta reader point out, very nicely, that he didn't much like the swearing in the book. It amounts to about 10 uses of the f-word, all in contexts of extreme emotion, with one specific character. I could take it out, but it says something about his character, and, frankly, nothing else has quite the same shock value, so long as its not overused.

So I'm not sure whether to take them all out or not. Interestingly, the beta reader was also uncomfortable with the sex scenes (which were few, and not graphic). So maybe he's just a more genteel and refined person than I am.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I wear my f-bombs and resulting 1-star reviews with pride.

I would change if I somehow believed from within myself that it was wrong, but certainly some people getting upset over a few words does not deter me from using them. It just determines that they are not my audience. I'm fine with that.


----------



## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

I'm not changing my ways at all. I haven't had anybody say anything about the foul language in my books yet, so no need to worry. People get too worked up about language, anyhow. 

I've heard some people say that when a person uses curse words, it's a sign of an uneducated mind. My old boss was a prominent lawyer, and I believe that he went to an Ivy League school. At any rate, he is probably one of the smartest guys that I ever have known. And, literally, every other word out of his mouth is either the f-bomb or the gd-bomb. He says these words just in his everyday language. He could be mad as hell, or calm as a still pond, and he would use the same amount of profanity either way. I found it amusing, and it was, for me, definitive proof that not everybody who uses a ton of profanity is "low educated." Not that I ever thought that to begin with.


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

daveconifer said:


> LOL. I'm sure that it'll only be a page or two before it's just another argument about whether it should or shouldn't be used.
> 
> I simply want to know if anybody else changed their stance on it and wrote differently.


Man, I hope it stays civil. To each their own. Live and let live and all that good stuff


----------



## G. (Aug 21, 2014)

Skye Winters said:


> I can understand removing some of the cursing, but there are times in dialogue or description when it can add that added emotional punch.
> 
> If you think of how you use profanity in real life, it generally crops up a lot more during times of surprise, when you drop something, miss a turn or something similar.
> 
> You can keep the cursing to a minimum, but keeping some in will make the story more realistic. Or, you could go the sci-fi/fantasy route and make your own words like Frack/Frick from Farscape.


That's _frack_ from Battlestar Galactica and _frell_ from Farscape.


----------



## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

I do think it helps to moderate your use of profanity with characters who're particularly inclined towards it. It's just like trimming out most of the "Ah," "Er," "Um," "You know," "Like," tics and noise-realistic portrayals of conversations between coarse folks like military personnel or college students aren't very readable.

But cutting all of it out? Fuck that. Folks also complain about cliffhangers, romances, LGBT characters, sex, violence, and emotions, and I'm not about to avoid writing any of those.

The only caveat I'd add is that I wouldn't use profanity (or at least not conventional profanity) in fantasy. At heart I'm more of a T.H. White guy than a G.R.R.M. guy.



Fredster said:


> Heh. The only two-star I've gotten on one of my books said, "If you're a fan of Stephen King or foul language, you'll enjoy this book." I can't count that as a negative review.


I can't stand Stephen King's books, but that's still just about the sweetest thing I've ever heard. Negative reviews really can be the best ones you get.



anniejocoby said:


> I've heard some people say that when a person uses curse words, it's a sign of an uneducated mind. My old boss was a prominent lawyer, and I believe that he went to an Ivy League school. At any rate, he is probably one of the smartest guys that I ever have known. And, literally, every other word out of his mouth is either the f-bomb or the gd-bomb. He says these words just in his everyday language.


Yeah, it's super irritating when people equate a love for profanity with a lack of vocabulary. Not something I've found to be remotely true.


----------



## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

daveconifer said:


> I'm going to try to write with little or no profanity in the future. I've had a few readers over the years complain about it. On the flip side, I've never heard a reader say "I sure liked those dirty words!" So I guess I'll give it a shot. Nobody loses, some people gain.
> 
> I recently received a four-star that included this: "It would have been better without the f-word." That was the deciding vote, I guess.
> 
> ...


Depends on the market.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

anniejocoby said:


> I'm not changing my ways at all. I haven't had anybody say anything about the foul language in my books yet, so no need to worry. People get too worked up about language, anyhow.
> 
> I've heard some people say that when a person uses curse words, it's a sign of an uneducated mind. My old boss was a prominent lawyer, and I believe that he went to an Ivy League school. At any rate, he is probably one of the smartest guys that I ever have known. And, literally, every other word out of his mouth is either the f-bomb or the gd-bomb. He says these words just in his everyday language. He could be mad as hell, or calm as a still pond, and he would use the same amount of profanity either way. I found it amusing, and it was, for me, definitive proof that not everybody who uses a ton of profanity is "low educated." Not that I ever thought that to begin with.


LOL OMG, that reminds me. I did a fair bit of work in the collections of our natural history museum. You know, the venerable institution with sandstone-column facade. The head of department was a very driven guy. Highly educated, very intelligent, but OMG, you should have heard him when something went wrong! His command of swear words was awesome!


----------



## blunch (Oct 22, 2014)

I don't personally like using profanity in my writing unless it's in the dialogue, but I don't really mind reading it unless it feels like it's forced in just for the hell of it. If that's your style though and it works for your stories then go for it. Don't let a couple of crybabies change your style.


----------



## Guest (Oct 29, 2014)

G. said:


> That's _frack_ from Battlestar Galactica and _frell_ from Farscape.


Thanks, G. I couldn't remember as it's been a while. Great shows, though.


----------



## ThePete (Oct 10, 2013)

I tried this neutered approach once. My core fans complained about me turning out a politically correct piece of trash.
To paraphrase one reader:
"What the [expletive] is this [expletive]ing [expletive] you [expletive]ing [expletive]? When the [expletive]ing hell did you [expletive]ing [expletive]? Piece of [expletive] [expletive]ing [expletive] [expletive]er!"


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Yes, I have changed my stance.  While now not banned, there has to be a compelling reason why I would include foul languge.


----------



## WordNinja (Jun 26, 2014)

My father and stepmother objected to the profanity in my women's fiction WIP. Ironic, since my father is the one who taught me to swear. I would never consider removing the profanity from my writing. If people are offended by my profanity, imagine how offended they'll be by my ideas!


----------



## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

When I write YA, I try to keep my f-words and s-words down to maybe two or three per book, but I got no problem sprinkling damns and hells any which way, leading to one of my favorite review quotes: "Language is the least of the problems parents would have with this book," which I proudly display in the editorial review section on Amazon, ala the _Gossip Girl_ ad campaign that noted their nasty reviews:









Yes, I am just that ornery.


----------



## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Some characters swear, some don't, some cultures don't allow for it and others do. Whatever will happen will happen.


----------



## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

Funny this topic came up.  Just got a 1-star for 2 f-bombs in a book about a soldier who just returned from Iraq - in 420 pages.  The reviewer seemed to be seeking free books just to check them for foul language as she left multiple 1-star reviews with the same complaint over a number of days. Profanity is definitely a risk for a writer.


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I've had some big arguments with friends over the issue. It's definitely a personal choice. I write for the market, not for my own personal artistic expression alone, so I try to be as broad as possible while still being interesting. I try to remove coarse language and have even done minor revisions on published work. I know this horrifies some people... who are not my target market anyway.


----------



## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

There's no shock factor to profanity that is used liberally.

I think of it in degrees... If every little thing gets f-bombed, how to you raise the stakes? It's just more of the same.

I don't shy away from it, but I consider very carefully if it's_ needed_ or if it's just me being lazy.


----------



## Daniel Cane (Oct 16, 2014)

Good idea. I see many reviews like the one you mentioned. You can still write strong stories and get the point across. Hey, it may even make you more creative.


----------



## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

I use what I used to call tv swears or "Simpson's" swears, like d*mn, h*ll, *ss etc. But there seem to be a lot of "real" swear words on tv these days, even regular cable. I have gotten called out even on my weak swear words.

If I want a salty character, I just say "he let loose with a string of swear words" or something, which I learned from other books I've read and liked the way it was handled.

I swear in real life, but try to save the f bomb for when it's really needed. My teenager uses the f-word conversationally and I hate it! But he'll probably outgrow it so I'm pretty mild in my reproaches unless it's just one after the other. Then I tell him to effing knock it the heck off. lol


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Lionel's Mom said:


> I use what I used to call tv swears or "Simpson's" swears, like d*mn, h*ll, *ss etc. But there seem to be a lot of "real" swear words on tv these days, even regular cable. I have gotten called out even on my weak swear words.
> 
> If I want a salty character, I just say "he let loose with a string of swear words" or something, which I learned from other books I've read and liked the way it was handled.
> 
> I swear in real life, but try to save the f bomb for when it's really needed. My teenager uses the f-word conversationally and I hate it! But he'll probably outgrow it so I'm pretty mild in my reproaches unless it's just one after the other. Then I tell him to effing knock it the heck off. lol


I don't know, I'm closing on 30 and the fBomb is my second language 

I don't swear around children though, and if I had a kid I would clean it up. But if I'm just conversing with an adult, yeah, it flies.


----------



## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

ThePete said:


> I tried this neutered approach once. My core fans complained about me turning out a politically correct piece of trash.
> To paraphrase one reader:
> "What the [expletive] is this [expletive]ing [expletive] you [expletive]ing [expletive]? When the [expletive]ing hell did you [expletive]ing [expletive]? Piece of [expletive] [expletive]ing [expletive] [expletive]er!"


I'm pretty tired right now, maybe that's part of what's going on...


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Some of my characters use the f-word liberally in all its variants. Others wouldn't dream of using it.
I've never had complaints. I think because in real life as well some people swear and others don't.

I wouldn't mind a review like, "This book would have been better..." It may make people think, "This a story about real people, not a cleansed and sterilized one."

And, by the way, I'm far more bothered by the use of the word f-bomb. It's disrespectful. Bombs are those things they drop e.g. in the Middle East and which _kill_ people. These terms don't do that.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I use a lot of swear words depending on genre. When writing modern characters in settings where that language is common, for example. Sometimes reviews complain about it, but I don't really care.  I'd rather be true to life and my characters than worry about one person in thousands who has an issue with the f-word.


----------



## Debra Dunbar (Jan 11, 2014)

I write contemporary fantasy, and only the demons in my book use profanity. It was a conscious choice since day one, and I've been very careful about it in this particular series.
So, IMO, it depends on what you're writing, what you're trying to convey, and who your audience is.


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

ㅈㅈ said:


> I use a lot of swear words depending on genre. When writing modern characters in settings where that language is common, for example. Sometimes reviews complain about it, but I don't really care. I'd rather be true to life and my characters than worry about one person in thousands who has an issue with the f-word.


I agree with this approach. One of my favorite filmmakers is Tarantino and I have friends that are extremely turned off by the amount of profanity he puts in his scripts. For me the 400 or so F-Bombs in Pulp Fiction is part of the appeal.


----------



## Guest (Oct 30, 2014)

SBJones said:


> Every book signing I have done, I have people ask me if there is any sex in the book and/or they ask if there is foul language. I have never had anyone turn down the book because I said no. But I have had people turn it down because I say yes to either one. No one cares about the level of violence though.


What a sad commentary on American culture. Extreme violence is okay, but better not show any naughty bits or have bad words. I don't understand getting worked up over sex and bad language, but not caring at all about violence. If you're screening things for your kid, sure, but as an adult, why is sex worse than violence? It makes no sense to me.


----------



## Guest (Oct 30, 2014)

Kit Tunstall said:


> What a sad commentary on American culture. Extreme violence is okay, but better not show any naughty bits or have bad words. I don't understand getting worked up over sex and bad language, but not caring at all about violence. If you're screening things for your kid, sure, but as an adult, why is sex worse than violence? It makes no sense to me.


They're afraid to give in to their warm, gooey feelings of arousal


----------



## Hopeful Writer (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm moving in the opposite direction. As a new writer, I worried a lot. My first books contained absolutely no profanity.
Now I think f-bombs and "coarser" language can add to the realism of certain characters. 

You don't want every single person out there to be your customer.

I've decided that I might as well do away with the frail, can't withstand an f-bomb, can't read about sex even when it's not graphic, sort of genteel reader. My characters are tough and deal with real life - my readers better be, too.


----------



## Carol Davis (Dec 9, 2013)

I try to be true to the character.  If substituting a tamer word seems forced and phony, I go with the cussin'.


----------



## Guest (Oct 30, 2014)

Skye Winters said:


> They're afraid to give in to their warm, gooey feelings of arousal


Oh, the horror! *gasp*


----------



## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

I use a small to moderate amount of curse words, such as _d*mn it, oh h*ll,_ and _SOB_ ( I really, *really* like calling people an SOB in fiction), but that's about as rough as my language gets. I've never dropped an f-bomb and never will. It's just not my thing. I don't like reading stories with a lot of f-bombs in them--a few here and there are okay, but more than a handful and I probably won't finish reading.

As far as my writing goes, I try not to do anything that will alienate readers if I can avoid it. If it isn't necessary, and using it would lose me readers, then I'm not going to use it.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I do not get negative comments about the lack of profanity in my books, so it makes it a non-issue.


One reader said, "I love this book but it is (gasp) G-rated." Life is tough. I don't speak it, so I don't write it and it's worked out fine for me. I'm sure there is a divided audience out there...those that do and those who don't. We can't please both sides.


----------



## Laura_Wingfield (Feb 6, 2014)

Hmm. I kind of lurk here and I seem to recall a really looooooong thread like this a while back. As for me, my WIP is a cozy mystery and I noticed most of the one star reviews in this genre seem to stem from use of profanity. So my main character uses alternative swear words instead. My brother is not a fan of this method. But what the flying toast does he know?


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Laura_Wingfield said:


> Hmm. I kind of lurk here and I seem to recall a really looooooong thread like this a while back. As for me, my WIP is a cozy mystery and I noticed most of the one star reviews in this genre seem to stem from use of profanity. So my main character uses alternative swear words instead. My brother is not a fan of this method. But what the flying toast does he know?


In one of my kids' books, I have a character who is of the type that would swear a lot. He uses "ferrets" as swear word. Honestly, it just happened like that and I didn't try to search for a word he could use.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Patty Jansen said:


> In one of my kids' books, I have a character who is of the type that would swear a lot. He uses "ferrets" as swear word. Honestly, it just happened like that and I didn't try to search for a word he could use.


Oh! I like "Ferrets!" I'm going to use that myself from now on.

It's funny, when I was in college, I had a character who said "Good grief!" and my classmates were shocked that it worked. But that's because I used it naturally. I didn't make it a substitute for something stronger. (I use it myself. I also use "Good (bleeping) grief!")

I'm not one who feels that books should or should not have a particular kind of language or rating. However, I agree with the OP's point that when you take it down a rating level, you open the book up to more readers. It only hurts if you actually have your hard-boiled gunman say "Oh, foodles!"

However, I have a problem with clashing world views in my "Man Who" series. The tone is set partly by one of the major characters who is a small town spinster who is a major movie buff -- and a big fan of Tarantino. So... it is a world where swearing exists, but it's a cozy, AND the heroine herself doesn't swear. If she's quoting a movie, which she does often, she substitutes. She'll say "Effer" or "F-word" or "F-bomb." And her point of view colors the whole atmosphere of the story so it's got a "production code" sensibility.

I was going to have her say things like "Foodles!" but I found she prefers "Nuts!" (If it's good enough for Cagney, it's good enough for her.) Gritty film made under the production code is actually a good source of language for a situation like mine. (I went back and looked and I talked about this on my blog, back when I was first wrestling it out. )

Camille


----------



## Tig Carson (Oct 30, 2014)

I feel like the profanity should fit the book. Some books need it to set the tone. But sometimes it's forced. I often use a lot of profanity during my first drafts, then whittle it down as I go along, until there's just a few at best.


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

The book would _not_ be better without the F-word. The book would be better for that reader. Kurt Vonnegut's seventh writing rule applies here. Do you want your story to get pneumonia?

http://www.npr.org/2014/04/20/304957688/like-little-language-vacuum-cleaners-kids-suck-up-swear-words


> "A lot of times you don't get to the argument about the positive uses of these [words]," Jay says. "Their use in humor, their use in bonding, their use as a relief from pain or venting or frustration - I look at this as an evolutionary advantage. Why would we have this language? It must do something for us."


http://testtube.com/dnews/why-you-should-swear-more/

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/why-do-educated-people-use-bad-words/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

If the situation warrants it, my characters may swear. Not necessarily using any f-bombs. Not often, because in my opinion few situations warrant that.

I challenge the above notion about intelligent vs. non-intelligent people. Intelligence indeed has nothing to do with it, there are a lot of intelligent people among those without a higher education. But the keyword is education, and in relation to swearing it doesn't mean just maths and chemistry. Education formerly used to include being taught manners, respect of others, how to behave to not be offensive or how to not be vulgar. So it was a divider between people of different educational levels. 

While an overuse of swearwords can (not has to) be the sign of someone lacking education, this has become less so. I'd say these days it is more a sign of lacking respect, politeness and refinement. That lack can include people who went to uni. There has been a movement towards swearing during the past decades, initially mainly to shock others, to show them up, or to cause high amounts of discomfort in those around you. That's not just typical for the US culture, it's been exported to everywhere as part of allegedly edgy youth culture and rap.

I rarely write characters who're coarse, or wish to shock or cause discomfort in others, so except for choice moments of where the cause was sufficient for swearing, they don't. I understand readers who complain and wish for relatively swear-free books. I also feel uncomfortable in the presence of someone who swears without thought of those in the hearing and would strive to avoid such a constant stream of vulgarity.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I feel like I have a free ticket to write as much swearing as I want without hurting sales.  I do want to rein it in a little, but only to be tasteful.  But some of my characters just talk that way, because of background or trying to be extra tough, or whatever.

Overall I feel that my readers are pretty cool about not worrying about it.  I've also never had anyone object to things that can be hot button in other genres like having interracial relationships (that term sounds a little outdated, wonder if it is?), or mixed race characters.  My readers just never give me...uh...crap about it.


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Nic said:


> If the situation warrants it, my characters may swear. Not necessarily using any f-bombs. Not often, because in my opinion few situations warrant that.
> 
> I challenge the above notion about intelligent vs. non-intelligent people. Intelligence indeed has nothing to do with it, there are a lot of intelligent people among those without a higher education. But the keyword is education, and in relation to swearing it doesn't mean just maths and chemistry. Education formerly used to include being taught manners, respect of others, how to behave to not be offensive or how to not be vulgar. So it was a divider between people of different educational levels.
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree. I was raised in private schools and have exquisite manners. I've been with my wife five years and still open her car door and write her letters every month on the date we met. I still use ma'am and sir. I just happen to curse like it's going out of style; I'm not trying to be edgy or cool, I'm 30, that ended a few years ago. It's just part of my vocabulary. Yes, I've also got 8 years of higher education, though, as you stated, that's irrelevant. But, I would also say the idea of manners and refinement is irrelevant as well. Why? Well, I think it's subjective. As are other ideas like morality that folks attempt to make concrete. I mean, odd example, but I use it often: I had a lot of friends that swore by passion of the Christ, they told me how powerful it was and how we need more cinema like it. Now, granted I'm not religious, but I gave it a shot and found it offensive, repugnant, and immoral. Just shows you how something that can be so sacred to one group can be something totally different to another. Profanity may offend some and add meaning and spice in the eyes of another. It's sort of the same way we've tried to cement gender roles in this country, "this is masculine this isn't". It's a fallacy, but many fall for it.

Of course, this is simply my opinion and interpretation of the matter. I respect your stance, and this is just, what I believe to be, the other side of the coin.


----------



## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> Oh! I like "Ferrets!" I'm going to use that myself from now on.


IRL, I hope!



daringnovelist said:


> "Nuts!" (If it's good enough for Cagney, it's good enough for her.)


Not to mention General McAuliffe!



Nic said:


> There has been a movement towards swearing during the past decades, initially mainly to shock others, to show them up, or to cause high amounts of discomfort in those around you.


Says who? I'd really love to see a source, because I don't think this is true.

Now, if we're talking about profanity appearing in print, in video, in audio, okay. That's true. I sincerely doubt whether it's gotten markedly more popular in private usage, however, and I think it's an improvement that creatives feel more freedom to express it.


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> IRL, I hope!
> 
> Not to mention General McAuliffe!
> 
> ...


Yeah, the lack of profanity back in the early 40's and 50's wasn't due to manners ( I'm not just making a guess here, this was a course I took when I was studying law...I didn't use the degree...I don't know if people would have paid for a mohawked lawyer) it was straight up suppression of the people, especially the artist. I mean, take On the Road by Jack Kerouac, the publisher chopped that damn thing down--the sex and the profanity--because they were afraid of facing legal backlash. Now, of course you can get it today in it's uncensored format. But there isn't some special movement towards profanity, at least that I've found in the course of my studies, it's just been less suppressed over time. We still have little odd forms of suppression here and there (I'm looking at you MPAA)


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

JV said:


> I respectfully disagree. I was raised in private schools and have exquisite manners. I've been with my wife five years and still open her car door and write her letters every month on the date we met. I still use ma'am and sir.


Manners and respect of the other aren't something exhausted by using a specific form of address, holding doors or writing letters on the day you met your lover or wife. With regard to swearing it includes erring on the side of your opposite possibly being made uncomfortable by vulgarities and refraining from them.



JV said:


> But there isn't some special movement towards profanity


I didn't imply there was any 'special' movement. Just a constant rise.


----------



## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Nic said:


> Manners and respect of the other aren't something exhausted by using a specific form of address, holding doors or writing letters on the day you met your lover or wife. With regard to swearing it includes erring on the side of your opposite possibly being made uncomfortable by vulgarities and refraining from them.


Is it good manners if the other parties are ambivalent or enthusiastically in favor of obscenities?


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Nic said:


> Manners and respect of the other aren't something exhausted by using a specific form of address, holding doors or writing letters on the day you met your lover or wife. With regard to swearing it includes erring on the side of your opposite possibly being made uncomfortable by vulgarities and refraining from them.
> 
> I didn't imply there was any 'special' movement. Just a constant rise.


I again, disagree. I don't think that's manners specifically. Now, being considerate in GENERAL, okay, perhaps, but I'm not going to single out just one thing. I mean, I think there has to be a limit to how much you bend to other people being "offended"...because, god almighty, people get offended by EVERYTHING today. Are there things that offend me? Sure: hunters, religion, the Left Behind series...but I don't expect everyone...or anyone really...to bend themselves to my offenses. I don't ask someone to stop talking about "God" in front of me...nor would I ever expect them to. I hold the same general attitude towards profanity. Again, this is just my personal outlook on it.

You didn't say special movement, but you implied it's an influx of kids trying to be edgy or cool when in reality our culture has just stopped being as repressive. We've, for the most part, backed off the profanity laws, which really impacted artists decades and decades ago. I've heard professors compare it to prohibition; people didn't stop drinking, they just went underground with it.

In the end, profanity is just another form of expression. Objectively speaking an FBOMB is no different than saying the word "darn"...we've just labeled it as such. Look at the history of profanity. There are words that were considered hair curling 100 years ago that we would laugh at in a pre-school now.


----------



## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Kit Tunstall said:


> What a sad commentary on American culture. Extreme violence is okay, but better not show any naughty bits or have bad words. I don't understand getting worked up over sex and bad language, but not caring at all about violence. If you're screening things for your kid, sure, but as an adult, why is sex worse than violence? It makes no sense to me.


Because nobody likes a foul mouthed psychopath!

Kidding aside, I guess it depends on how you define _worked up._ I don't read or write erotica because I prefer thrillers and mysteries, but I don't consider myself a prude. Heck, I've even hung out on a few erotica threads here and joked around with a lot of you about it. I don't believe I've ever come across judgmental about it, here or on any other forum, yet I've been labeled a prude and "hung up" simply because I prefer not to read it. It hasn't happened on this board, because you all are just _that_ awesome, but it has happened on other boards.

People can sometimes get too defensive when someone says they don't like a lot of swearing or sex scenes. Not you, personally, just people in general. I would fall into the category of someone who doesn't like a lot of foul language or sex scenes but is okay with violence to a certain degree. There is nothing I love more than a story about a psychopath.


----------



## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I swear in real life and I use swear words on the page, if the character in question would use them. Some of my characters are coarse people and that's how they talk. 

I have deleted some instances of the f-word in a story, where it seemed excessive and repetitive, but I still kept some of them in. The only swear words where I weigh very carefully, if they're really needed, are the c-word as well as various racist and homophobic terms. And yes, I have used the c-word in a situation where the villain was expressing his contempt for my heroine. Because it's what the character would have said. Though I limit it to one c-word in a multi-line rant for maximum impact.  

If a book contains the c-word, any of the high impact racist or homophobic terms or multiple instances of the f-word, I put a language warning in the blurb. I don't warn for one or two occurrances of the f-word or the s-word or any of the really mild ones, because it would seem silly to me. I do have violence warnings on some books that have torture scenes. I also find it weird that in the US, "adult" always means swearing or sex, but never violence. 

As for people complaining (or not) about books without swearing, I don't have a problem with books that don't contain any swearing per se. However, I do notice when the avoidance of swearwords seems forced or artificial or when silly replacement terms are used. 

In general, extreme discomfort with swearing seems to be a very American thing to me. Here in Europe, very few people are upset by swearing and mostly by the stronger words. People getting upset about hell or damn is just plain weird to me.


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

If someone doesn't want to use profanity in their writing for whatever reason that is perfectly fine.

The reaction to swearing is a result of the verbal conditioning of the person reacting and sometimes the conditioning for the context they are in. If you are in church you might not swear. But if you are reading a story and there's a foul-mouthed character sitting in a pew discussing her latest conquest with her best friend who is a nun, then that's the story world the reader is immersed in at the moment. If the reader doesn't like the character that's fine. However, if the author is successful in getting them to read on and be invested despite that character or because of that character, and furthermore enjoys the book, then maybe there's no there there.

That being said, if at the first swear word the reader cringes and wants to run away, they are welcome to do so. There are so many books and not enough time. Find a new story. This reader is not your audience, this writer is not your author.

Also, that NYT article is a debate piece. The title is the hook. It's an interesting piece.

As for a movement in society, from that same article, John McWhorter says:


> Cursing in casual settings has never been alien to American life. In 1864, the engineer of the Brooklyn Bridge, Washington Roebling wrote to his fiancee in tones like these: "unless it be the spirit of some man just made perfect, come to torment me while I am writing to my love" -- but in the same letter mentioned that he had been "building bridges and swearing all day."


Maybe, sometimes, swearing has a little to do with shocking people, more often it's reflective of what we feel we are free to talk about in public spheres.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_good_word/2013/07/swear_words_old_and_new_sexual_and_religious_profanity_giving_way_to_sociological.html


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

CoraBuhlert said:


> I swear in real life and I use swear words on the page, if the character in question would use them. Some of my characters are coarse people and that's how they talk.
> 
> I have deleted some instances of the f-word in a story, where it seemed excessive and repetitive, but I still kept some of them in. The only swear words where I weigh very carefully, if they're really needed, are the c-word as well as various racist and homophobic terms. And yes, I have used the c-word in a situation where the villain was expressing his contempt for my heroine. Because it's what the character would have said. Though I limit it to one c-word in a multi-line rant for maximum impact.
> 
> ...


America's only fetish is for violence. You can torture someone on a movie screen for two hours, no problem. However, the human anatomy is bad, very very bad!


----------



## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

JV said:


> America's only fetish is for violence. You can torture someone on a movie screen for two hours, no problem. However, the human anatomy is bad, very very bad!


At least as long as you keep your torture victims clothes then.

Though I do find it strange that I am not expected to check the "adult content" box with those retailers that have them for graphic violence, but am expected to check it for sex.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Swearing really was much more a contextual thing in the old days.  People really did use things like "Gosh darn it!" in "mixed company" when they might not other situations.  (And I had an uncle who just died who still did that.)  And I still have relatives who have no objection to R-movies, but who quote things with either substitute words, or more likely, muffled voices.  "And then I said (mumble mumble)!"  (The mumbles being the actual word said, but said with lips tight together, ventriloquist-style.)

And that actually is a matter of manners.  People who do swear in the right circumstances, but who don't unless it's called for.

As a writer, I like this respect for strong words.  They have the most effect when held in check (except, of course, when they are used at full saturation for the opposite effect -- as with The Big Lebowski, where carpet bombing with the f-bomb -- contrasted with the more discrete voice of The Stranger -- highlights the sweetness of the story.)

Camille


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> Swearing really was much more a contextual thing in the old days. People really did use things like "Gosh darn it!" in "mixed company" when they might not other situations. (And I had an uncle who just died who still did that.) And I still have relatives who have no objection to R-movies, but who quote things with either substitute words, or more likely, muffled voices. "And then I said (mumble mumble)!" (The mumbles being the actual word said, but said with lips tight together, ventriloquist-style.)
> 
> And that actually is a matter of manners. People who do swear in the right circumstances, but who don't unless it's called for.
> 
> ...


Well, I respect your opinion, obviously I disagree, but that's what makes the world go round'.

Like I said, darn is really no different than an FBOMB...it's simply a matter of the societal weight put on a word. I laugh at some of the words considered "profanity" back in the old days, like I said, a toddler could use em' and we wouldn't blink.

The same goes for gender roles, another example I used, "This is masculine and this is feminine" (as you can tell I reject gender roles as well). We treat profanity the same way, "This is a bad word. This is a good word."

I'm not offended by the F word. I adore it, in fact. But words like "gay" when used casually or in a derogatory manner deeply offend me and you'll never hear that word come out of my mouth unless I'm referring kindly to my LBGT brothers and sisters.

Different strokes for different folks.

What's the "right" situation for profanity? When is it called for? That's subjective, obviously. Opinion. I use it in regular conversation and I am incredibly well mannered.

Some may disagree. They may think I'm wrong. They may think my usage of profanity is uncalled for. It's all a matter of opinion.


----------



## CfaE (Jul 25, 2014)

I have books with no profanity and books with so much profanity that a truck driver would blush at them. My books with profanity sell more copies and gain more fans. It could be that the stories/genres/style are better though, so I don't have conclusive data about what is better. 

I'd say that it's likely that no profanity will appeal to a different kind of reader, so what you'll be doing is targetting a different demographic by changing the profanity levels.

Personally as a reader, I like profanity in books because I think it adds more realism to the dialogue, but I think there are readers on both sides of the profanity fence. 

If I ever did that, I'd probably do some kind of market research into what kind of readers I'd be attracting with the new books and what they like in terms of covers and genres etc. because I think just changing them will lose some of your current readers, so you need to replace them with non-profanity readers. You basically need to explore the non-profanity genres and find out who your target market is and what they want. Then you need to give them what they want. 

The same works for profanity in a book. It needs to reach the right readers.

Non-profanity genres in my experience tend to be YA, lit-fic etc. So, you're looking at younger readers (or more importantly their parents) as your target, or you're looking at lit-fic readers, who are likely academics or people who enjoy thought-provoking reads. There are also specific romance genres that cater to 'sweet romance' where passion only goes as far as people holding hands, and they never swear. Oh, and Christian fiction. Overall religious fiction is low on profanity as a general rule.


----------



## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Several of my books are completely free of swearing, sexual and violent content, nonetheless I would never advertise any of them as a clean or sweet read, because I just don't get that mindset and fear the book would still contain something that might offend that demographic.


----------



## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> Swearing really was much more a contextual thing in the old days. People really did use things like "Gosh darn it!" in "mixed company" when they might not other situations. (And I had an uncle who just died who still did that.) And I still have relatives who have no objection to R-movies, but who quote things with either substitute words, or more likely, muffled voices. "And then I said (mumble mumble)!" (The mumbles being the actual word said, but said with lips tight together, ventriloquist-style.)
> 
> And that actually is a matter of manners. People who do swear in the right circumstances, but who don't unless it's called for.


Sure, I just don't think anything's changed from the olden days. I don't swear around people I don't know. I certainly don't swear around my family. If I warm up to you, and if I recognize that you're on the same wavelength as I am, I make myself comfortable. If I'm around friends, I swear like an 1860s engineer on a job site.

And hey, if JV says "Thanks for the fucking coffee!" each time he visits Starbucks, that's not a new thing either. He's an eccentric author, after all. We have to make allowances. 

I've a feeling it was ever thus, and still is with most folks. I can't remember the last time a stranger swore in my presence, nor I in the presence of a stranger.


----------



## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> And hey, if JV says "Thanks for the [expletive]ing coffee!" each time he visits Starbucks, that's not a new thing either. He's an eccentric author, after all. We have to make allowances.


Speaking of coffee, I'm glad I didn't have a mouthful when I read that! Too bleeping funny.


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> Sure, I just don't think anything's changed from the olden days. I don't swear around people I don't know. I certainly don't swear around my family. If I warm up to you, and if I recognize that you're on the same wavelength as I am, I make myself comfortable. If I'm around friends, I swear like an 1860s engineer on a job site.
> 
> And hey, if JV says "Thanks for the [expletive]ing coffee!" each time he visits Starbucks, that's not a new thing either. He's an eccentric author, after all. We have to make allowances.
> 
> I've a feeling it was ever thus, and still is with most folks. I can't remember the last time a stranger swore in my presence, nor I in the presence of a stranger.


Lol, I'm gonna try that the next time I get my coffee.

Being real though, I don't just go cursing at or with strangers. I will swear in public if I'm p*ssed. I was at Top Golf tonight and couldn't hit anything to save my life. Finally tossed the club and said, "I'm done with this god**** game." I didn't yell it or anything, I'm sure the people in the next bay may have heard.

But otherwise it's in conversation with people I know. You know the usual, "How ya been man?" "Bro, it's been a ***** up day, you gotta hear this s***"

That's mainly what I mean. And if there is a child around, no, I don't swear. More so because I don't want them parroting me at school or around their parents. Don't want that karma on my head.

It's funny you mention the eccentric thing. I get called that often. I think fast. Talk fast. And am liable to hit on dozen random subjects in a 5 minute convo. I read Japanese anime and kevin smith biographies back to back while listening to Kanye West and Frank Sinatra. What makes me happy this minute may have the opposite effect the next. My wife has adapted to me finally, after 5 years.


----------



## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

JV said:


> Lol, I'm gonna try that the next time I get my coffee.


May I suggest using the drive-through?


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Some of my characters use the f-word liberally in all its variants. Others wouldn't dream of using it.
> I've never had complaints. I think because in real life as well some people swear and others don't.


I take this approach, too, and I definitely have had complaints. I wouldn't change it, though. Some people cuss a ton. I want to represent those people in my writing -- along with folks who don't cuss at all and those who do so only occasionally. That goes for blasphemy, too. It makes the characters' voices feel more real and individualized in my mind if there's variety in this area.


----------



## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

JV said:


> ...cursing...funny...eccentric...random subjects...kevin smith...







I could listen to that story every day and never get tired of it (topical, actually-he discusses whether or not one should use profanity in movies).

Also, #WalrusYes


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

daveconifer said:


> I'm going to try to write with little or no profanity in the future. I've had a few readers over the years complain about it. On the flip side, I've never heard a reader say "I sure liked those dirty words!" So I guess I'll give it a shot. Nobody loses, some people gain.
> 
> I recently received a four-star that included this: "It would have been better without the f-word." That was the deciding vote, I guess.
> 
> ...


Best of luck with your new approach, Dave!

I make my own judgment calls that are right for me. Others make the ones that are right for them. Everyone wins.

I think the key consideration for anyone, in this way, has to do with what you, as the author, feels is best for the genre you're in, the audience you want to target, and, well... to put it bluntly... doing what you feel is best as the creator of your content. 

Everyone draws their own lines for their own reasons. It's all good, and there are readers for the whole spectrum.

To address your core question directly: I do make slightly different choices, depending on the project. I go further in The Woodsman, for example, than I did in Shada. 

But, see... The Woodsman is horror / suspense-crime-serial killer for older readers, while Shada was coming-of-age/light paranormal YA.

Different choices for different tales.


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'm not sure what you want this thread to be then, but I've got popcorn.


Me either. I'll pass on the popcorn, too many carbs. 

The way I look at writing, you do what you have to do for the story. If that requires some "bad" words, then so be it. If some readers don't like to read them, I have no issue with that. But I'm not going to change anything I think is essential in telling the story because of one or two complaints. You start down that road, and you're writing by committee.


----------



## KingSweden (Dec 16, 2013)

Swearing can be used as a character trait. A lot of my characters are coarse, salty types and they swear accordingly. In one book, I had a villain with a short fuse for whom that was essentially his main trait, actually. In think I got into Joe Pesci levels of F-bombs in that one.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JV said:


> Like I said, darn is really no different than an FBOMB...it's simply a matter of the societal weight put on a word.


And that's exactly what courtesy is -- societal norms.

But I would go further. As a writer, I respect words. Words have connotations and societal meaning. They are our tools and a lovely variety we have of them in English. To say "darn" is the same as the F-bomb is to take away the usefulness of two unique words.

Words do not have equal weight. Each variation evokes something different. Even sounds evoke emotion.

And here's the really crazy thing: people used to know that. That's the difference between now and the old days. It's not that people were more offended. To be honest, people are more puritanical about it today: there are bad words, and not bad words. And there are maybe two gradations of bad words, but every word in the same grade is interchangeable with the others.

Maybe a part of the difference is the difference between the Production Code, and Television Standards and Practices (and MPAA rating system).

What most people don't know is that the Production Code didn't really have rules. You see modern people talk about very specific things that would trigger the censors, but that wasn't actually an encoded rule. The Hayes Office would let things through based on situation. (This isn't to defend the Production Code - they were into censoring ideas, which is not better than censoring words.) Gone With the Wind broke the "rules" of the Production Code all over the place, but the bodies were there as a part of the historical message, and "I don't give a damn" sums up the whole meaning of the story. (I.e. that Scarlet, for all her pretensions, is not a lady.) And serious westerns and action pictures tended to get a bye on similar language, when a musical wouldn't.

But when Television came around, you ended up with things like the seven words you can't use on Television. These were firm lists and rules that everyone had to adhere to. Context didn't matter. There eventually came a time when they changed the rules -- stricter rules during "family hour" and less strict rules after 9pm. (It seems to me that this happened right around the time the MPAA was developing the ratings system.)

In the end, it's all about context, as well as about style and tone. With certain tones, it's like having music up loud -- stronger words are needed just to have any meaning. With others, even characters who you believe would swear will sound out of place swearing.

That's, I think, an important point. The context of the story, and our voices as authors, have as much to do with the kind of language we use as the "realism" of the character. And this is true even more than fear of offense. If you have a less realistic tone -- that goes for language as well as anything else. If you have a more realistic tone, that too rules.

Camille


----------



## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

To me, profanity is like an exclamation point.  Sometimes it fits, but if you overuse it the reader feels like they are being shouted at constantly.


----------



## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

It's not uncommon to find some genres don't like it.

I don't care whether someone uses it or not as long as it works with the story. If they are using it just for the sakes of it thats retarded.

Alternatively what you can do is just say "He cursed under his breath."

That way you can show hes pissed off without actually using a curse word.


----------



## Chance (Jul 2, 2014)

This is a process I'm currently undergoing.

But it is something I would want to do (with control) for certain situations. In terms of writing, I had to force myself to learn not to write swear words mainly because my focus of writing is currently in the genre where, traditionally, profanity is definitely not allowed - cozies.

In the end though, I think we should all learn to control our situations at the very least in terms of profanity use. For example, I noticed that my younger brother uses profanity quite a bit when he's angry with my parents. He's learning how to control it since, because the last thing he'd want to do is to let it manifest into the workplace under pressure and tension.


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> And that's exactly what courtesy is -- societal norms.
> 
> But I would go further. As a writer, I respect words. Words have connotations and societal meaning. They are our tools and a lovely variety we have of them in English. To say "darn" is the same as the F-bomb is to take away the usefulness of two unique words.
> 
> ...


Yes, but I've stated thoroughly, I believe societal norms can be destructive and should be challenged. Gender roles, racism, animal rights, and yes, even profanity. Just because it's a societal norm doesn't mean we should follow it like cattle, societal norm is often just another phrase meaning "oppression".

You're missing an important point; words have different meanings to DIFFERENT people. They don't all carry the same weight to everyone, nor should they, we've all had different experiences. People didn't "used to know that"...things haven't suddenly taken a crazy turn in this world...the respect for words hasn't suddenly fallen away. I studied profanity laws and many things have changed; the meaning of certain words, the level of repression placed on artists, and laws on the books actively enforced by police. People haven't changed, there's just been less repression.

It'd be like saying, "Oh, people are much more prone to drink alcohol today...they've got no respect for their livers," simply because you see more booze on the shelf. In reality, all that happened was, we ended prohibition, society got larger, and more companies working in alcohol and liquor propped up. People probably respect their livers more than ever since our knowledge concerning the human anatomy only expands with the passing of time.

Back to what you were saying about words carrying different weights. This may be the only thing I agree with you on, but, as I said, those weights change person to person. If you're religious then the term "God" carries weight. If you're not then it's nothing more than another way to express surprise. If you haven't known "love" then that is an empty word. Hell, let's look at sex and violence and the different weight it carries across cultures. Violence is welcome with open arms in America, I mentioned Passion of the Christ earlier, which I consider torture porn and repugnant, but, many people, people you might describe as well mannered, were in the theater, drowning in their own tears. But, put a couple on screen using any exotic sexual position and the MPAA will shoot you down hard. Over in Europe things are different. They don't celebrate people hurting people the way we do and, to them, sex is something to be celebrated as something natural, a gift from our world to us.

So, in summary. People have always been people, they aren't more or less sensitive to profanity, in fact, studies show that we're living in some of the safest and most civilized times in human existence--if anything we're more "well mannered" than we've ever been. Words do carry weight, but that changes based on the person.

You also mentioned tone and context, of course this is important. If I walk up to my friend and say, "wassup biatch!" in a happy go lucky tone it's much different than if I say, "what's up...B***!" in a low growl. Tone...context...all of that is vital. Profanity, for me, can express frustration, happiness, admiration, it can tell the story of the sort of day I've had; it's quite versatile. So yes, tone and context matter, a lot.

Anyway, it's been fun!


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

There's a lot of cursing in my Urban Fantasy series and I make it a point list that up front ("foul-mouthed horror comedy"). I've gotten dinged by some bad reviews for it, but that's okay.  I don't pretend to try to appease everyone.  Let those who enjoy it, enjoy it.  Let those who don't seek their entertainment elsewhere. 

I will admit, though, at times I am tempted to do what I like to call a "Channel 11 edit"...replacing all the curse words with some of the nonsensical phrases that used to run rampant in TV edits of R movies.  "Hey, flip you, buddy!"


----------



## Robert Dahlen (Apr 27, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> I don't use bad language in my books. I save it for my children.


I save it for bad days on my day job.  Seriously, while I won't put down anyone who uses profanity, I shy away from it myself. Some of my characters use "hell", "sucks" and "crap", but that's about it. It's my choice, just like using George Carlin's "seven words you can't say on television" in one's writing like salt and butter on popcorn is someone else's.


----------



## Victoria LK (Jan 31, 2014)

I've kept it out of my work for the simple fact that my mother reads my books!  Even though I'm an adult with a son in college, the thought of my mother's disapproving shake of her head...well you know!


----------



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

Personally, as a reader, I enjoy characters that will let loose with the swearing because that's generally how I am IRL, but I do agree that it's all relative to the genre and the characters. If I'm reading about a refined gentleman in Victorian era England, I'm not expecting him to bust out with an f-bomb, but if I'm reading about a gritty, rough and tough military sort I'm not expecting him to say "Oh, fiddle sticks!" either. 

I write urban fantasy, and I've written all of my characters curse in a way that feels natural for them - my MC swears like a drunken sailor when the situation calls for it, and some of my other character's don't swear at all simply because that's the personality they have. The only negative comment I've ever gotten was actually from my editor who thought that I needed to tone down some of my MC's language because I sometimes tend to use more inventive, anatomy based cursing rather than the run of the mill f-bombs and such. I did alter it a little based on her suggestion, but for the most part stayed true to the character. 

As for readers taking offense to the language I use, well, if they can't handle the cursing, they probably can't handle the violence either and probably shouldn't be reading my books in the first place


----------



## walter.boutwell (Oct 30, 2014)

I agree with the premise and solved it to a large extent by using future-cuss, the bad language of the future.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

As predicted by the OP, this thread has gone off-target from his original question of "Have you ever changed your approach and how has it worked for you" to a lot of knee-jerk reactions defending either the choice to use profanity, or not to use profanity.

Which is a pointless debate because each author has the freedom to choose and use their own approach for their own reasons.

Boy, it'd be nice if we could see more responses to the original question, though. That's a far more interesting discussion.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Honestly I must admit I'm much less offended lately by the F-word or s-word, etc., than I am by any slur aimed towards women, or belittling women.  That feels like more than swearing and it bothers me.  I don't know if I'm sensitive or what, but I don't like to read or write the "b" word, etc.


----------



## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

I think when I was still exploring my writing voice I was very rigid about being able to use profanity b/c I think on some level I associated the use of profanity with creative freedom. But now, I don't know... The urge is not so insistent and I wonder if that is indicative of my being more comfortable with myself. My voice. My ideas. It's like I no longer have to prove that I can "say anything." I just don't want to. Weird how that happens. It certainly wasn't a conscious decision. I kind of just moved on... And I'm okay with it. But every now and then, I drop the "s" bomb - 'cause it's like my favorite  And Christmas is coming, so it will come in handy...


----------



## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I changed my approach.

I wrote my first book while my mother was still alive. I knew she would read it. But some of the characters were high school students. Now, I work on a high school campus, and I can hardly walk from one building to the next without hearing f-bombs exploding all around me. A couple of my high school characters were the sort to use the f-bomb liberally... but my MOTHER was going to be reading this book!

So I left all of the f-bombs in because I'm an ARTIST and I am NOT going to let my mother's puritanical ways stifle my freedom of expression!

So she read the book, liked it, commented on the "rough" language, and we both moved on. She died. I've written two novels since then and neither one has any considerable amount of profanity. I just don't care to write it.

When I Look Inside a book now, if I encounter a bunch of f-bombs, I don't go any further. Maybe my late mother's spirit has taken residence in my body, I don't know.

So I write around it or just leave it out, and nobody's complained yet.


----------



## jesrphoto (Aug 7, 2012)

As a reader, I really hate the "r" word. I think thats the only one that really bugs me. I curse like a sailor.

But man. I cringe when I read/hear the R-word.


----------



## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

R-word...?  Rape?


----------



## CfaE (Jul 25, 2014)

You know the interesting thing about profanity is that it only became profane because of the way people reacted to it in more recent times. I think the Victorians and the 1960's were massive influences on repressing certain words because they were deemed too sexual. I did some research for one of my stories into the entomology of various swear words. Many of the most profane words were first recorded in the writing of poets, who used them in prose to describe various things, but predominantly sex or sexuality. If you look at the Age of Enlightenment, profanity is the norm, and no one winced at it back then. I think it's interesting how words can take on a life of their own. It's always amazed me how the f-bomb can cause a violent reaction in people but the word genocide has no effect on them at all. If you look at the meaning of both words, the latter is much more shocking.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

MyraScott said:


> R-word...? Rape?





Spoiler



"Retarded."


 I agree with jesrphoto on that one.


----------



## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same here. That word makes my blood boil if I hear it being used pejoratively. It's still used within the medical community in a clinical sense and that does not bother me.


----------



## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Oh, yes.  Definitely offensive and it makes me think a lot less of the person who uses it. 

It has been used so negatively, it is no longer a medical term.


----------



## LucyAslan (Apr 13, 2014)

I do use swearing in my stories, simply because that's how people in real life talk. I have had one person complain about the F-word in the beginning of one of my stories because it demeans women, but that was exactly why it was used. In context, there was no other word that character would have honestly said. *Shrug*


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

daveconifer said:


> I'm going to try to write with little or no profanity in the future. I've had a few readers over the years complain about it. On the flip side, I've never heard a reader say "I sure liked those dirty words!" So I guess I'll give it a shot. Nobody loses, some people gain.
> 
> I recently received a four-star that included this: "It would have been better without the f-word." That was the deciding vote, I guess.
> 
> ...


I don't use a lot of profanity, but use the occasional 'S' word for poop. Or dam. In my whole series, I have one F bomb and it's in the last book, said by a bad guy. I tried several other words instead, but nothing else sounded authentic to me, so the F bomb stayed. Haven't had any complaints yet, but book is less than a year old. 

The thing is, even with minimal swearing, I still get the occasional 'Too much swearing' complaint. Otoh, I've also had, "I'm glad there wasn't too much swearing." on the very same book.  Everyone has a different barometer for measuring what they think is too much, I guess.


----------



## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

So far this has been going more smoothly than expected in my WIP. Characters simply don't utter those combinations of letters that some people have deemed unacceptable. They're not using phrases like "cursed under his breath" or "ordered Fred to perform an anatomically impossible act" or anything of the sort. That's not my style, and I can't seem to bring myself to do it. They just don't use the bad words. It hasn't been that painful. Luckily these are all new characters in a new story, so I don't have to explain the change.

Just to reiterate -- I personally have no problem with profanity, and most of my readers don't either. I don't think the level of profanity is any indication of writing skill, intelligence, skullduggery, or sleaziness. But I'm thinking that it might be worth changing character language in order to not drive away the readers who red-flag certain combinations of letters (and write reviews on Goodreads that contain sentences like "I always heard that fowl language made a person sound stupid and I say after reading this book David conifer must be the biggest idiot around!")


----------



## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

I rarely use profanity, so when I do employ it, the curse words becomes all the more jarring.

I've always gone by the rule that people swear because they're either too ignorant or too lazy to use language that adequately describe their feelings. As my protagonist is usually the smartest guy in the room, this is one way to demonstrate that. So if any of my characters do swear, it's usually one of  the bad guys.

One other interesting thing. I've received a lot of nice compliments in customer reviews on is the absence of cursing in my books, and that they are "clean." My hero has sex, but it's never graphic, always left to the imagination. For someone who writes hard-boiled mysteries, that's not an easy thing to accomplish. But it's a challenge I've given to myself, and I think it works well.


----------



## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

MyraScott said:


> Oh, yes. Definitely offensive and it makes me think a lot less of the person who uses it.
> 
> It has been used so negatively, it is no longer a medical term.


In a world where it often seems like literally anything goes with language, the DSM is one of the few reliable milestones (at least from the point of view of this lay person). I'm glad they are removing "retarded" from the canon.

It's like when they removed homosexuality as a "diagnosis".


----------



## Morgan Jameson (Sep 16, 2014)

_House of Apache Fires_ takes place in the '40s - during WWII, and people swore much less then than now. I heard a couple comments from old timers talking about _Saving Private Ryan_, and the comments were that there was a a lot of profanity. Sure, it existed, but the f-word was much less prevalent. Pretty sure that's a good thing. As a result, I limited my profanity, and cut the only 2 f-words in the book.

In my other novel, however, there is quite a bit of profanity, and ugliness - sometimes the story demands it. Go with your gut, and don't let people affect your work. In this case, I knew a number of WWII vets were likely to read my book, and I wanted it to be accurate, but not offensive to them. Just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it...


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I hope this reply doesn't violate the terms of what you want this thread to be, but the amount of profanity,IMHO, should depend on the character. If you write about a guy in the mafia, for example, he probably wouldn't say things like you're getting on my fudging nerves, you donkey's behind. You get what I'm saying.


----------



## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

katrina46 said:


> I hope this reply doesn't violate the terms of what you want this thread to be, but the amount of profanity,IMHO, should depend on the character. If you write about a guy in the mafia, for example, he probably wouldn't say things like you're getting on my fudging nerves, you donkey's behind. You get what I'm saying.


Katrina, sorry if I'm coming off as a thread-Nazi. I didn't mean to, and who cares what Dave Conifer wants in a thread?

I agree with what you're saying about profanity, and have always written that way. What I'm attempting right now is kind of moving beyond that. Even though I think you're dead-on about the mafia guy, I'm experimenting with avoiding the "fowl" language anyway, to see if I can get away with it.


----------



## P.T. Phronk (Jun 6, 2014)

Not only is there profanity in my books, but it's right in my titles. I wouldn't let any dang reviews change that.

I doubt I'd find much to like in a book that went out of its way to avoid certain words. Maybe I wouldn't explicitly be aware of it or mention it in a review, but if a book feels sanitized and fake, I enjoy it less. You can't go in any public place without hearing at least a few F or S words, so unless a book takes place entirely in a home with people linguistically tiptoeing around toddlers, it would have to deviate pretty far from reality to avoid any profanity at all.

Maybe some people enjoy fiction that takes place in an alternate universe with a smaller lexicon, but it's not my cup of freakin' tea.


----------



## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Phronk said:


> I doubt I'd find much to like in a book that went out of its way to avoid certain words. Maybe I wouldn't explicitly be aware of it or mention it in a review, but if a book feels sanitized and fake, I enjoy it less. You can't go in any public place without hearing at least a few F or S words, so unless a book takes place entirely in a home with people linguistically tiptoeing around toddlers, it would have to deviate pretty far from reality to avoid any profanity at all.
> 
> Maybe some people enjoy fiction that takes place in an alternate universe with a smaller lexicon, but it's not my cup of freakin' tea.


I don't think every book needs swearing. After all, not every story calls for it. I don't expect swearing in an Amish romance, for example. But when there is a situation where people would normally swear or a character you'd expect to swear and there is no swearing or sanitized fake swearing, I do roll my eyes.

Your sweary titles, particularly the one about the missing arm, made me smile BTW.


----------



## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

I don't swear but my characters do!


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

daveconifer said:


> Katrina, sorry if I'm coming off as a thread-Nazi. I didn't mean to, and who cares what Dave Conifer wants in a thread?
> 
> I agree with what you're saying about profanity, and have always written that way. What I'm attempting right now is kind of moving beyond that. Even though I think you're dead-on about the mafia guy, I'm experimenting with avoiding the "fowl" language anyway, to see if I can get away with it.


I don't think you're a Nazi. I just wasn't sure if my reply was right for this thread. I respect your decision to avoid profanity if that is what feels right to you. I write erotica, so I'd basically not have a story if I tried that. Could be an interesting experiment though.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm generally not a person who uses a lot of profanity.

That being the baseline, I'll fess up to this: there are times when I swear, even though it's not a normal part of the way I speak.

In traffic, if someone does something that nearly kills me? Yup... profanity happens. (In fact, one of my favorite things whenever someone claims 'I don't swear anymore' is to respond with, 'Really? Great. Can I ride with you during rush hour some day this week?' So far, no takers. LOL)

When I hurt myself, like stubbing a toe. Or like what happened earlier this week: I was taking out a lot of garbage to the apartment bins and decided to cut across the lawn. I had two open bottles of used deep-fryer oil with me.

It had rained recently and the ground slid underneath me. I backflopped onto the ground, inches short of a cement curb (thankfully) but still, it hurt.

I did not utter "Praise God!"  Quite the opposite.

I think when people swear, they don't really mean "I never swear ever." I think the reality they're speaking of is more like, "It's not a part of my casual conversation."

Just an observation, drawn from personal experience.

While I think that's somewhat common in our culture, I do think some readers (and even movie-goers) like profanity to be rare in their entertainment. That might seem contradictory, but...

...I think it lines up with a principle of ALL good storytelling.

I think it was Robert McKee who wrote this:

"Story is not everything that happened. It's every important thing that happened."

In the same way, one could choose not to repeat profanity in dialogue unless it's important to the moment, under the same principle:

"Compelling dialog is not everything that was said. It's every important thing that was said."

From a storytelling standpoint, what's important will be different for each writer and each character. Lots of room for diverse choices in that principle.


----------



## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

For me it's all about balance. My WIP police procedural contains graphic violence and profanity, but in short bursts. I never want the reader to become desensitized. Both things can get annoying if you abuse them.

Drive is one of my favorite movies, and the violence and profanity in my books mirror the graphic scenes in that movie. One moment it's somber, and then boom -- things get ugly, and then go back to normal. I think writers make a mistake when they glorify violence and profanity. They try to make it sound cool. I don't do that -- I want it to come across as ugly, and make readers feel slightly uneasy. 

Honestly, if someone is offended by a curse word in one of my books (or violence in something about serial killers), enough to stop reading it -- then good riddance. I can see if I was writing American Psycho 2.0, but in my case there will never be more than two graphic scenes in my novellas (25k words), and probably less than 5 curse words. Like I said, I don't want to desensitize readers.


----------



## Axel Blackwell (Aug 10, 2014)

Man, I'm worried that if i censor my characters, they might get pi... peaved and just stop speaking at all. Then I'd have to make it all up myself, and that would suck. Years ago, I believed swearing was wrong, so I'd have to get very creative in  my writing, like "fluster cluck" or "poop hit the prop." But that stuff just doesn't fly with the characters I usually write. Most of my attempts to curb the profanity flopped.
Having said that, my WIP is told from the POV of a girl who has been very sheltered. She doesn't know any of the really bad words, and few of the other characters use any profanity. The one F-word in the book is rendered thusly: "He screamed a word Anna had never heard before." In this incidence, i feel that worked better than spelling it out.


----------



## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

daveconifer said:


> I simply want to know if anybody else ever changed their stance on it and wrote differently.


Short answer: yes. In fairness, I don't write characters that have the need to curse. I used mild profanity in the past, but feel that it doesn't lend anything to my style or the stories I tell so I've cleaned it up. In real life, I curse like the sailor's wife I am  I'm not offended by it, but I don't want to offend anyone with it, either. Since my readers aren't used to profanity in my books, I doubt anyone even noticed.


----------



## huggie (Nov 16, 2014)

I don't have too much profanity in my books but if I did, it would probably not make much of a blip compared to the brutal violence in them... or at least I hope most people who don't mind gratuitous blood and gore wouldn't be offended by some profanity...


----------



## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

In this day and age, it's not like it's as huge of an issue as it once was. It's hard to shock the reading public anymore, especially not with swear words.

Some readers love them, some hate them, but _you can't write for everyone_. You write for the people who like the kind of stories you tell.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I do not get negative comments about the lack of profanity in my books, so it makes it a non-issue.


^this^ I've never seen a review that says "What this book needs is more swear words."


----------



## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

MyraScott said:


> In this day and age, it's not like it's as huge of an issue as it once was. It's hard to shock the reading public anymore, especially not with swear words.
> 
> Some readers love them, some hate them, but _you can't write for everyone_. You write for the people who like the kind of stories you tell.


As someone mentioned earlier, I believe it is a matter of balance. As with anything else in our writing, if it becomes a distraction to the reader, it's a problem. If not, you're fine. That's true with everything from swearing to punctuation. A couple misplaced commas won't ruin a story, but if every one of them is misplaced, it makes for a challenging read.


----------



## EthanRussellErway (Nov 17, 2011)




----------



## EthanRussellErway (Nov 17, 2011)

walter.boutwell said:


> I agree with the premise and solved it to a large extent by using future-cuss, the bad language of the future.


I do this too. Mwaa ha ha.


----------



## dmdaye (Jun 6, 2014)

I think it's down to the author, I write poetry and yes some of my work has the f-word included, but it's in keeping with the piece and stresses the emotion intended (based within a certain environment). In the right place I think it can and should be used, but its use for the sake of it can be just lazy.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

I was asked to judge a Limerick competition and awarded 1st prize to this one:

_His page to King Wenceslas said,
"Sire, we got to 'ave rocks in our 'ead.
"Let's dump all this succour
"With some other *ucker,
"Whose 'ovel is nearer instead."_

The writer could have used sucker, but it wouldn't have been as funny. However, it caused such a furore in the Writers' Circle that one member actually resigned.  Some readers do NOT like profanity, so use with caution.


----------



## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Since I have some published plays for young people out there, I try to keep the cursing in my books to the minimum. I'm not comfortable with a lot of swearing in any books, but that's just me. I do have friends who are super-conservative (just a few of them) and one won't even buy a book if it has one "damn" in it. Yet she reads spicy romances.  I'm reading C. Moore's The Serpent of Venice now and it has a LOT of f-bombs, but in there, it's funny. If I wrote really hardboiled detective stuff, then it would make more sense. 
Just depends on the book, IMHO.


----------



## EthanRussellErway (Nov 17, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I was asked to judge a Limerick competition and awarded 1st prize to this one:
> 
> _His page to King Wenceslas said,
> "Sire, we got to 'ave rocks in our 'ead.
> ...


It seems to me that if you sign up to judge a Limerick contest, you might expect to see a wee bit of profanity. This would be like signing up to judge a wet t-shirt contest and then yell because you were offended by the ta-tas.


----------



## 71202 (Jul 17, 2013)

I have had at least two comments in favor of not entirely polite language, both of whom liked the title of my werewolf novella "Son of  Bitch".

On the other hand I have never had anyone write to congratulate me for my books with no swearing in them.

So in my personal experience I guess I should add more profanity.


----------



## trixiearcher (Aug 1, 2014)

I try to write around cursing by saying "curses" or "the character was irate and expressing himself with colorful words."  It paints a picture without degrading my work.  I personally do not enjoy curse words, I do not say them, I do not like to hear them (My 14 year old son slips up often) and I certainly do not like to read them...but hey, that's just me.  If it's in character, it's in character.

A while back I posed the question in my writer's discussion group:  is such language a reflection of society or is society speaking in such a way that is a reflection of what they are fed through the media?  (writers feeding them this diet)

IF we can influence a wave of positive change in regards to profanity, shouldn't we?


----------



## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

In reference to the oft-quoted simile. . . I doubt truck drivers really swear THAT much more than the general population.


----------



## JaroldWilliams (Jan 9, 2014)

I applaud you, Dave. IMHO there is far too much profanity in present-day writing.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2014)

Although I feel there are no inherently bad words, there are a few that have become cliché, the F-bomb included. Like "said" in a dialogue tag, they're becoming invisible due to overuse.


----------



## starkllr (Mar 21, 2013)

I didn't really set out purposely to reduce/remove profanity from my books, but it's worked out like that anyway.  In my first book, the f-word is in there six times, and, really, most of those could be changed without any effect (there's one spot where it needs to remain because the dialogue just doesn't have the same effect without it - the MC is recounting the time she had appendicitis, and the pain was so bad that it caused her to curse at her father for the first and only time in her life).

After that book, the f-word appears a total of six times in the next seven books, and two of those are as part of a joke that, again, really wouldn't be effective without it. 

There's very little other profanity - s--t appears ten times in eight books, and half of those are part of jokes/wordplay where it really is fitting to use the word (the MC is describing her research, which includes taking stool samples, and her friend comments that her work is "full of s--t", for one example).

I'm curious - what is the general opinion on slightly weaker words?  Still profanity, or not?  "cr-p" vs. "s--t" or screw you!" vs. "f--k you" etc.?  For people who don't want to see the f-word, would the weaker alternative put you off as well?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

EthanRussellErway said:


> It seems to me that if you sign up to judge a Limerick contest, you might expect to see a wee bit of profanity. This would be like signing up to judge a wet t-shirt contest and then yell because you were offended by the ta-tas.


I awarded it 1st prize. It was some of the members who objected (mainly the ones who didn't win).


----------



## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Wow. I keep meaning to revisit this. I knew I'd taken a hiatus, but this thread is two years old!

_Here is the tl;dnr summary: I have no moral objection to certain combinations of letters. However, many readers complain about profanity in my books that have it; no readers complain about a lack of profanity in my books that don't have it; so I'm going to try going no-profanity for the future._

Anyway, I finally finished and released the book that this thread is about. Although my conclusion is completely based on tone, nuance and gut feeling after reading reviews and reader feedback, I believe I was right. A book with no bad words gets the benefit of the doubt with a lot of readers with no downside that I can discern among any other readers. And if they prefer it, I can stick with it (at least for this series, LOL). I wouldn't call it my most popular book yet, but I think it will end up being that. And it's also launching a new series that I think will continue to succeed, and is a lot of fun to write as well.

There were a few times when I thought a "F" or "S" was appropriate but I didn't use it, so maybe I'm a sellout or a fake, or whatever. I also left out "D," "AH" and anything worse than "darn" or "hell." I like these words, but by leaving them out I can reach more readers. That's more important to me...

edit: to make my experiment even less reliable -- I am in a new genre with this book. Readers here are very different here than where I was before. I didn't exactly follow the scientific method here...


----------



## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

daveconifer said:


> Wow. I keep meaning to revisit this. I knew I'd taken a hiatus, but this thread is two years old!
> 
> _Here is the tl;dnr summary: I have no moral objection to certain combinations of letters. However, many readers complain about profanity in my books that have it; no readers complain about a lack of profanity in my books that don't have it; so I'm going to try going no-profanity for the future._
> 
> ...


If you think that's the key to reaching more readers, go for it. It's your book. Do what feels right for you.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Good for you. 'If in doubt, leave it out' is a good maxim to go by. 
You won't lose any readers by not using profanities, but you likely will lose some if you do  .


----------



## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

Personally, I don't use profanity (with an occasional crap, darn, etc which I don't consider profanity).  However, in my books I do use varying levels of profanity depending on the characters and situation (some cuss sparingly, a lot, or not at all), but I made a conscious decision not to include the f-word or God's name in vain, mainly because when I read a book this makes me cringe on some level.  It's especially frustrating in a good book where it is suddenly dropped and feels completely out-of-character or context.  Thus, I've never had a review left that references language, though there are plenty of other things to make readers cringe.  

It's interesting to hear how this might've impacted reviews on your new book.


----------



## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

Sticking with what you wanted, Dave, and without discoursing on the relative value of profanity, my answer is no, I have not made my books profanity-free, nor will I ever. Reason: I will not permit the smeary hand of censorship (and that's exactly what it is) to reach down into my writing and tell me I "can't" write something. I am fully prepared to take the consequences of my stand on the issue.

That's it.


----------



## lauramg_1406 (Oct 15, 2016)

I don't use profanities very often (partly because about 2/3rds of what I've written is fantasy and it wouldn't fit) but I also have no problem with putting some in, if it feels natural and like the character would use it in a real life situation. Saying that, still pretty sure the profanity count still falls on one hand!

Aside: Absolutely no problem reading swearing in books. Doesn't bother me unless it's in front of fictional children, then it just feels wrong!


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

daveconifer said:


> _Here is the tl;dnr summary: I have no moral objection to certain combinations of letters. However, many readers complain about profanity in my books that have it; no readers complain about a lack of profanity in my books that don't have it; so I'm going to try going no-profanity for the future._


This sounds like a reasonable approach.

Personally, I've never read a book and considered abandoning it due to insufficient profanity.


----------



## scott.marmorstein (May 26, 2015)

daveconifer said:


> I'm going to try to write with little or no profanity in the future. I've had a few readers over the years complain about it. On the flip side, I've never heard a reader say "I sure liked those dirty words!" So I guess I'll give it a shot. Nobody loses, some people gain.
> 
> I recently received a four-star that included this: "It would have been better without the f-word." That was the deciding vote, I guess.
> 
> ...


I've definitely gone back and forth on this. I think some of my characters are naturally salty. Also I think that some characters can use profanity as comedic relief, if done well and interjected at the right moments, but over all it doesn't necessarily add anything to prose or plot. I'm also staying clear of its usage in my future works because for some reason a lot of kids end up reading what I write and I'd rather get it across without a need for vulgarity in general.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Voelker (Feb 27, 2014)

Lots of people keep chiming in to say you won't lose readers for lack of profanity. 
I'm not so sure that is true, especially depending on genre. 
If I'm reading a gritty crime drama, and a gang member is shouting at a cop, and says, "Get your gosh darn hands off me, egg roll," I might be a little pulled out of the moment. 

I know there are ways around it, but it sounds exhausting. I tend to just have my characters say whatever it is they would actually say, instead of performing literary gymnastics to get around colorful words. But that is what works for ME and MY readers. Doesn't mean it's right for anyone else. 

A the end of the day, how you write is always up to you. Good luck!


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Steve Voelker said:


> I know there are ways around it, but it sounds exhausting. I tend to just have my characters say whatever it is they would actually say, instead of performing literary gymnastics to get around colorful words. But that is what works for ME and MY readers. Doesn't mean it's right for anyone else.


Ditto. When I'm writing, I tend to focus more on staying authentic to the character than worry about what people will think.

At the end of day, it works for me. Might not work for everyone though. Your mileage will always vary.


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

daveconifer said:


> LOL. I'm sure that it'll only be a page or two before it's just another argument about whether it should or shouldn't be used.
> 
> I simply want to know if anybody else changed their stance on it and wrote differently.


I went in the opposite direction after posting my work on a writers site 7 years ago. I didn't have any profanity in the MS, but I added some after a deluge of comments that it wasn't realistic for some of my less than savory characters not to use the f-bomb or the like. Not had any complaints as yet, but there is always that chance. Some bestselling trad-authors use it in certain genres, but in others it would be a complete no no. I wouldn't for example expect any in a cozy mystery.

I wouldn't change back on the basis of a single review.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Steve Voelker said:


> If I'm reading a gritty crime drama, and a gang member is shouting at a cop, and says, "Get your gosh darn hands off me, egg roll," I might be a little pulled out of the moment.


Personally, I prefer the scene to convey the character's mood and disposition.

"Drop it!" Taco glared, fingers moving toward the TAC-Force TF-705 sheathed on his belt.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

arieswriting said:


> My Brookline University series is YA/NA and profanity is used very sparingly, and only by characters that you'd expect might use it.


LOL. Hardened criminals have *nothing* on teenage girls when it comes to using profanity.


----------



## Tommy Muncie (Dec 8, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> LOL. Hardened criminals have *nothing* on teenage girls when it comes to using profanity.


I've worked with 'challenging' teenagers a few times and I know exactly how true this is! Who wins the argument is about 50-50 but the girls _always_ win the cursing award.


----------



## stillmyheart (Aug 29, 2016)

I swear quite a bit in my every day conversation, though it usually depends on who I'm talking to, so my books contain some swearing as well, but not nearly as much as I might actually say myself on any given day (typically my characters only swear in my books when they're highly emotional; the main character in my most recent novel never swears, so for the once instance where she does, it's a huge indicator of how angry she is, and the amount of stress she's under). So far, I've not had anybody complain about it, and I don't intend to change my writing habits, even if someone does complain. I like to make my characters as real and human as possible, and a lot of humans swear, some more than others.

Ultimately, the decision to use swear words in your novels is up to you; I don't believe in letting anybody tell me what I should or shouldn't write. If someone doesn't like it, then they don't have to read it, it's as simple as that.


----------



## C. J. Sears (Nov 15, 2016)

I'm not sure that some genres work without some level of profanity. Anything gritty kind of needs it.

That said, you can absolutely make any kind of story without f-bombs and/or blasphemy. _The Shadow Over Lone Oak_ contains horrible imagery and crude subject matter, but I was able to eliminate the f-word and prevent any use of "j c" or "g d" in dialogue and exposition.

It's kind of like excessive nudity/sex: most of the time it's unnecessary for telling your story and just comes across as shock value/perversion. The exception here is erotica where that's obviously needed.


----------



## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Anarchist said:


> Personally, I've never read a book and considered abandoning it due to insufficient profanity.


I agree. Imagine a review saying something like "I was gravely disappointed by the lack of profanity in this book, particularly the scarcity of &*#$ and #*@!, as well as $&#@." Maybe Siskel and Ebert reviewed a movie somewhere and sometime during the last several decades with such a critique--"Two thumbs down. Harrison Ford should've said @#$% more." I must've missed that one.


----------



## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Yet readers who do swear are going to feel a protagonist that does as well at the right moments is a character after their own heart. No one is going to complain if it isn't there, but it isn't going to be as relatable on even a subconscious level to readers who use profanities, which means they'll enjoy it less than they otherwise would've.


----------

