# The Select Program should be terminated



## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

The Select Program should be terminated.  It is not a good program for either the authors or Amazon.

Instead of the Select Program the following changes should be made.

The exclusive requirement should be dropped.  All this does is drives away the best authors.

The Prime library should be available to all authors.  All that would be needed would be a check mark on the publishing page.  A fixed amount should be applied to borrows.  This would increase the size of the Prime library and give the reader more choices.

All the promotion features in Select should be available to everyone.  There should not be limitations on the numbers of times promotions could be run.  These promotion features would increase the number of sales which would benefit the authors and Amazon.

Terminating Select and giving authors the tools they need to sell more books is needed now.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

You make a lot of good points, but I think if they get rid of the exclusivity, they'll have to get rid of the KLL as well. They are paying quite a bit every month to have titles no one else has. I'm not sure it's working out for them. Like you say, it scares away the top authors. Also not sure what agreement they have set up with the major publishers, who have books in KLL that are for sale elsewhere.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I expect that as soon as Amazon decides that, no, it's not really profitable or good for them, that they will terminate it.  Remember, though, they're not really in the business of pleasing authors, they're in the business of pleasing customers.  In many cases, those goals align, but not always.  And where they don't, Amazon will choose on the side of 'happy customers' rather than 'happy authors'.  It's their business model.

Please note: I have no idea what Amazon really thinks about the program. . . . whether they feel it's successful or not, or could be better with a few tweaks.  You'd have to ask them.  Not that they'd say.  But I do know Amazon has tried any number of things over the years that didn't work and quietly faded away.  So if they decide it's not successful/profitable/doing what they wanted it to, they'll end the program.

I also think they're pretty good about listening to consumers.  You are, even as an author, a sort of consumer -- at least of their book selling service -- so you could certainly courteously offer your insights and suggestions. Commenting here won't really do anything at Amazon, of course, though I'm sure this thread will generate conversation.


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## Ardin (Nov 1, 2012)

I agree. Exclusivity is just silly, really.
They should have the promotions available for all books. It's just a bit of fun really. I re-enrolled a couple of books in select just to see the countdown in action!
I wish I could use it on my other titles.
Also, what's the point in giving us only 30 percent in india, brazil etc. They're tiny markets. Just give 70. They give 70 in Canada and Australia which are likely to be the important ones anyway.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

I remember how, about this time last year, we were all speculating that Amazon would quietly let the KLL fade into the sunset once the pledged amount was used up. It didn't. Amazon clearly sees exclusivity as a vital tool in their kit to draw customers. Select may not be working for most authors (in part because it is so successful for those it does work for, and in this case it is more of a zero-sum proposition), but what you really should be asking is how well is it working for Amazon and its customers.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

Personally, I like it. I decided to focus on Amazon as the home for my book, and so far a quarter of sales have been through Select, I'm sure a lot of indie authors make good money from the program. It makes sense that you are rewarded for giving exclusivity, although I realise this isn't for everyone. I just play what's in front of me, the best way I can. I'm in general agreement with Glynn.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

If anything, I think Amazon should make Select MORE attractive to authors, to get more exclusivity.
And then they should promote the fact that those titles are exclusive.

It's the author's choice to use Select. If they choose not to it's a little odd to demand that others shouldn't be given that opportunity.

(That said, do away with Countdown, Amazon! It's cutting into my sales.     )


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Edward M. Grant said:


> If it's not working for most authors, it's unlikely to be working for Amazon, because the books readers want are unlikely to be in it.


Disagree. Most authors enter into Select because they think it's a way to gain exposure and, consequently, lots of sales. They leave because it's not, because those aren't the books that do well in the program. The books Amazon wants most, the ones drawing readers to Amazon, aren't the ones these authors are putting into the program. It's a faulty assumption to say that the two are linked.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Ugh. Select.

It's an odd, terrible animal, like a mangy terrier whose filthy encrusted fur has spawned a stench so thick that it eats out of its own bowl.

The thing about Select is that it exists _purely_ to artificially inflate the number of books available on the Kindle. The clever bit is all in how that tick box as to be manually ticked off to get out of it, so casual or non-serious writers who are just throwing their book up there to try and Get Rich Quick are on there _FOREVER_ and so the Kindle will always have a library advantage made up of zombie books that time forgot.

However, the Kindle itself is a loss-leader to lock people who don't know about calibre into buying all their books in the Kindle store, especially the over-priced trad-pubs. Amazon knows that the endgame of all this is in selling ebooks, so eventually, they're going to have to take a look at their practices and realize they need to do things that actually sell ebooks instead of things that don't work designed to get people into exclusivity and they're going to have to gut Select to do it.

There is no good reason we can't instantly set our prices and initiate sales. There is no good reason not to have native perma-free. There is no good reason not to have native coupons. There is *no good reason not to treat us like vendors instead of people taking advantage of a service*.

...Except keeping the 'Books available on Kindle' number higher than Nook and Kobo (Apple isn't even in the game in that respect.). And eventually they'll realize they don't have to play that game anymore.

And now it's time for me to be harsh:

We are all to blame. All of us. We let this happen.

We recommended launching from Select when it actually worked to the point that it's become a mantra that people still say even though it doesn't work anymore. We hear people say things like 'my borrows get me more money than other platforms', but never ask _WHY_ that is. We don't encourage or create book recommendation sites fo BN, Kobo or iBooks like the ones that exist for Amazon.

We let this happen and we have spent years wallowing in complacency. I complain about Select a lot, but really? None of us have a right to complain because this is a monster we fed and we never did much or anything to devise alternatives.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

To say it's not working for Amazon is kinda silly. You don't know what Amazon wants out of it.

Amazon plays a long game. My guess, going from past practices, is that the whole thing is just one more data gathering experiment.

The exclusivity bit isn't really about enticing readers, other than being able to test if the word "exclusivity" actually brings much interest to promotions. The fact is the people who are most likely to use the KLL are solid Kindle users anyway. They don't care if the books are elsewhere. (Furthermore, you don't really find the most famous, looked-for books in KLL.)

Which isn't to say they aren't using Select to test whether exclusivity will be of some use in the future -- it's just that they are in the experimenting and data-gathering phase, and it's doing great for them for those purposes. They get to see what will lure authors to the program, what gets them to quit. What drives their competition nuts and how readers react. And _which_ readers will react and what elements most please those readers.

It's a success for them if a small minority of readers are drawn to Prime because of the "exclusivity" claim, even if the selection is limited -- because it doesn't actually affect the rest of their readers. Furthermore, people are signing up for Prime for reasons that have nothing to do with the KLL. So it's one more thing in the "free to Prime members" column that gets ignored.

To me the proof that it is far from it's final form (or just not important at all to Amazon) is the pool of money. That's what companies use when they want to test something before they know the budget ramifications.

Camille


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Speaking as a customer, I don't like KLL at all. I have a new Paperwhite, and the KLL is buried under a pull-down screen. Once there, the offerings are poorly sorted, and it's too confusing for me to bother. I never know if a book I want is in the program, and by the time I skim the top of the lists, I've lost interest and just go looking for a book I know I want, regardless of price.

I have Prime, but have borrowed a book once. At first I kept "saving" my freebie, but then I got fed up with how random the assortment was, and how difficult to search, I moved on to a public library with a great ebook selection.

Perhaps I'm in the minority. How many Prime members use their book every month? (asking, not rhetorical.)


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Ugh. Select.
> 
> It's an odd, terrible animal, like a mangy terrier whose filthy encrusted fur has spawned a stench so thick that it eats out of its own bowl.
> 
> ...


Bless you.


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## Joshua Dalzelle (Jun 12, 2013)

Ann pretty much said what I was thinking; Amazon is about making money and pleasing its customer base (readers) and to a much, much lesser extent its content providers. The KOLL is a draw to get people to enroll in the yearly Prime subscription (that and the shipping benefits) and like Hugh mentioned, exclusivity is another draw to get readers to buy Kindles. Amazon compensates the authors by tossing in a few million into the fund.

I guess I don't understand the incessant bashing of Select. It's a voluntary program. If it doesn't work for your promotional plans or hasn't been that successful for you there is no requirement that you enroll. The thing to keep firmly in mind is that Amazon is a corporation interested in maximizing profits. The programs offered to us aren't out of the kindness of their hearts, it's because they feel it will bring more buyers to their platform.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Gretchen Galway said:


> Speaking as a customer, I don't like KLL at all. I have a new Paperwhite, and the KLL is buried under a pull-down screen. Once there, the offerings are poorly sorted, and it's too confusing for me to bother. I never know if a book I want is in the program, and by the time I skim the top of the lists, I've lost interest and just go looking for a book I know I want, regardless of price.
> 
> I have Prime, but have borrowed a book once. At first I kept "saving" my freebie, but then I got fed up with how random the assortment was, and how difficult to search, I moved on to a public library with a great ebook selection.
> 
> Perhaps I'm in the minority. How many Prime members use their book every month? (asking, not rhetorical.)


I do.

As I learn about books here and there. . . mostly here. . . I take note and usually put it on a wishlist at Amazon. I mostly browse, etc. via my computer. If the book is in the KOLL, I put it on a separate wishlist. At the first of each month, I go through that wishlist to decide what to borrow for the month. Some have been bona fide duds. But some have been very good and I have gone to the trouble to put further titles from those authors on my watchlists, and even pay money for permanent copies of later work. For me, it's a great, free, way to try an author that has no track record. I can't borrow them from the library, 'cause those books aren't in the library. And, while purchasing is only a few bucks, I don't want to waste that money on a book that's just not that great.

That said. . . . .it's not the main reason I have a Prime membership -- it's really just icing on my Prime Cake.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Gretchen Galway said:


> Speaking as a customer, I don't like KLL at all. I have a new Paperwhite, and the KLL is buried under a pull-down screen. Once there, the offerings are poorly sorted, and it's too confusing for me to bother. I never know if a book I want is in the program, and by the time I skim the top of the lists, I've lost interest and just go looking for a book I know I want, regardless of price.


I hate how disorganized the KOLL is, as well. It's very difficult to sort and actually find anything, which is why I usually just go ahead and borrow a book I already know is in there from the start. 9 times out of 10, that means I'm borrowing a Montlake or Thomas & Mercer book.



Gretchen Galway said:


> How many Prime members use their book every month? (asking, not rhetorical.)


I do. It's not WHY I have a Prime membership, though. I'm in Prime for the free shipping. I can easily use $79 worth of "free shipping" in the first month. Free streaming video is another thing I heavily, heavily use. Add in a free ebook every month and I'll happily take it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

To the OP, ok you don't like select, don't use it.  But please do not say it needs to go away just because it doesn't fit your needs.  It might fit someone else's needs perfectly.    Now I don't have prime but I do love the select free days.  
That would be rather like me saying I don't like hominy so it shouldn't be sold.

Now I had a sort of argument with someone the other day and it brought home a point which may or may not be important.  If I don't like something/someone, I am not going to give them my business or my money.  I can always go somewhere else.  The other person basically said just give me something good, the personality really does not matter.

If I didn't like Amazon, I could always go to B&N or Kobo or vice versa.
I do not understand how someone can say oh I hate company X but faithfully shop at company X when companies Y and Z carry the same things at almost the same prices.  

So don't try to limit others just because you don't like something.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> To say it's not working for Amazon is kinda silly. You don't know what Amazon wants out of it.
> 
> Amazon plays a long game. My guess, going from past practices, is that the whole thing is just one more data gathering experiment.
> 
> ...


kDP select is a useful tool for Amazon and I bet they wish they could convince more authors to join.

It takes authors away from the competition, and reduces the amount of perma free.

It allows them to promote a benefit to Prime customers of free borrows using a budget that they would have to spend on marketing anyway to increase prime membership.

Now they have added countdown as a means of further reducing free promotions.

All the tweaks that Amazon have made has been to reduce the amount of free downloads.

Amazons motivations for KDP select will never be the same as authors. What we see as/or was working, to garner free downloads to sell our product in the afterglow of coming off free, means that readers are not buying other authors priced books. Free for them cost them money. Free must drive them mad.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Joshua Dalzelle said:


> I guess I don't understand the incessant bashing of Select. It's a voluntary program. If it doesn't work for your promotional plans or hasn't been that successful for you there is no requirement that you enroll.


Select hurts us all.

If you're in it, you really ought to be getting something that works out of the deal and you're not. Amazon itself made it so freebies don't work and seeing as getting onto the countdown lists seems to be completely random, it's fair to say you're not really getting much. And don't say borrows. Borrows are sales with worse royalties. It might be worth it if Prime members got more than one borrow a month, but they don't.

For those us us what aren't in it, the 'benefits' of Select are keeping us from getting actual useful things on KDP.

- Because of freebie days, we have to do a masochism tango to make our books permafree on Amazon.

- Because of Countdown, we can't schedule price changes, change them reliably, or get the 'strike-through' discount on the page. We also can't get coupons for the same reason.

- Because of borrows, there is no subscription-based 'library' program on Amazon (although this is a good thing, but people seem to want it)

Amazon chasing the exclusivity dragon gives them a (perceived) incentive not to actually offer features that *will sell more books*.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> Amazon chasing the exclusivity dragon gives them a (perceived) incentive not to actually offer features that *will sell more books*.


For whom?
If one million people look for books in any given time period, the existence of Select will not suddenly make that 2 million.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Borrows generated by the extra visibility of (and reduced competition in) the KOLL are a pretty big deal for some authors.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Decon said:


> <snip> means that readers are not buying other authors priced books. Free for them cost them money. Free must drive them mad.


If Amazon believes this, they have no idea how entertainment has ever worked ever and REALLY no idea how anything works in the digital age.

Entertainment is not like other businesses. It's not like selling beans where someone will buy a can of beans and go 'welp, now I'm set for beans. No need for more beans until I eat these'. Entertainment isn't a thing you can 'fill up' on.

The reason why there is competition with television and movies is NOT because the consumer is in any danger of reaching their preset movie limit and shutting down, but because there is limited space on theaters and slots on TV. With books, not so much.

The only thing any of us are in competition for is visibility, and if authors were bigger on guilding and cross-promotion like the web comics and web tv industries, we could turn the massive ecosystem we have into a boon instead of a hindrance.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Quiss said:


> For whom?
> If one million people look for books in any given time period, the existence of Select will not suddenly make that 2 million.


You can't change the number viewing, but you can change the number buying and getting hooked.

That's what a sale is, after all. The rate of people in the supermarket doesn't change, but the number of people plunking down money _does_.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Decon said:


> kDP select is a useful tool for Amazon and I bet they wish they could convince more authors to join.
> 
> It takes authors away from the competition, and reduces the amount of perma free.
> 
> ...


Question. If Free drives Amazon mad, why then today were they offering 110 coins with a free app. That 110 coins means I can get another paid app free.

Free is a marketing tool. How do you get a customer in the door? Offer them a special or a freebie. Another example is their sometimes free shipping over $35. Yes most people will spend more just to get the "free" shipping. 
So no free does not drive them mad, it is actually a very inexpensive marketing tool. 
On the free books, I figure it costs Amazon less than a penny to store the file. So let's say Gennita has a free promo for 3 days. Hey that was a good book, I wonder if she has any more. Oh yea, she does. The book is only 3.99 so I pick it up. Amazon has just made the money 110 times over what it may have cost them to give me the first book free. 
Not to mention at the top of the amazon page is "Today's deal". That comes up on every page.
So I would bet good money that Amazon does not lose money on free. Oh and any profit means Amazon is not losing money...it just means they didn't make quite as much one quarter as they did the previous quarter.
The ones that free costs is the author because they do not make any money off of free.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I made great money on the Select Program, but only as a temporary and annual promotional opportunity. I think the problem with Select is NOT Select itself, but how authors use it.

When you're making marketing decisions, put yourself in a reader's shoes. Are you excited to get a FREE book that's honestly regularly priced at $4.99 or $3.99? Or a 99 cent one? I see books in Select that make no sense. My favorite ::headdesk:: moments are when I see an author put an omnibus at 99 cents and in Select! What are they thinking?!?!?! Why would you put yourself in the Clearance bin on purpose?

Use Select selectively. You could use it permanently for a series, but I don't know why an author would want to do that unless he or she was getting kickbacks from Amazon. The best uses I have seen it used for are after a book has decent reviews and a little bit of buzz and a decent price ($2.99 or above). Then when you go free, it matters. After Select is done, and hopefully you'd used it to get even MORE reviews, you release on other outlets and do something like a 99 cent sale or a $1.99 sale. The reviews over on Amazon help book sites see that your book is not crap, and the deal looks like a good one to readers.

But no, a 99 cent book with next to no reviews will not do well with just about any promotion. 

As far as exclusivity? Unfortunately from my perch as a daily ebook deal advertiser, Barnes and Noble is losing that war all on its own. They're NOT price matching trad pubbed books hardly at all anymore (I have two deals to share with my readers tomorrow where the book is $2.99 on Amazon and $10.49 on Nook), and their search ability got worse! I can't always pull up trad pubbed books by title anymore, I HAVE to search by author. And a new glitch in recent weeks has been a book shows up in results, but when you try to get the purchase page, it says content not found.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Once again, a thread that has convinced me to:

1. Quit Select, because really, it's just costing me sales.
2. Stay in Select but use freebie promos wisely.
3. Quit Select forever. Really! My book is worth more than "free!"
4. Stay in Select and try to increase sales with occasional Countdown promos.
5. Quit Select, and curse its very existence for making me check sales every few hours.
6. Stay in select and promote borrows through Prime.
7. Quit Select, recognize it for the bad deal it is for authors, and never look back.
8. Stay in Select and promote MatchBook 2-for-1s this holiday season.

Hmmm. Wonder what I'll actually do. Honestly. I really don't know at this point.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> When you're making marketing decisions, put yourself in a reader's shoes. Are you excited to get a FREE book that's honestly regularly priced at $4.99 or $3.99? Or a 99 cent one? I see books in Select that make no sense. My favorite ::headdesk:: moments are when I see an author put an omnibus at 99 cents and in Select! What are they thinking?!?!?! Why would you put yourself in the Clearance bin on purpose?


It is the whole "penny wise, pound foolish" thinking. If I put the omnibus in Select, I can then promote it to people to borrow it. I make more on a borrow than I do on a sale. Oh, and I'm an "unknown author" so I HAVE to sell low because nobody will pay attention to me otherwise. And then I spend hundreds of dollars to promote my free days and then spend countless hours promoting the fact that you can borrow my book for free. And then when I actually get sales, I give all the credit to Amazon despite the fact that Amazon did nothing but serve as a landing page for all of MY promotional efforts.

But then after the first month, my sales plummet. So I panic and start the process ALL OVER AGAIN because if I lose my sales rank I won't sell anymore books. But of course the reason I lost my sales rank is because I stopped promoting the book like I did during the initial ad campaigns.

Select is a self-fulfilling prophesy, but it is also ultimately unsustainable. It still works for a few specific genres, but that is more the nature of those demographic groups in general. It just is not a good program for the majority of titles, particularly if you have something that is not in the romance, YA, or NA categories (which are where the bulk of the indie sales ultimately come from).


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Wild Rivers said:


> ...
> Terminating Select and giving authors the tools they need to sell more books is needed now.


I'd just like to comment on this point.

How would any change in the way any ebook website operates result in all the human beings out there in the world suddenly wanting to purchase MORE books than they were otherwise going to purchase?

There's a $ limit on how much people will spend, and a time limit to how much they will be able to read.

Anyway ...


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> We are all to blame. All of us. We let this happen.


Sure. We are to blame the same way each individual grain of sand is to blame for the tide washing over the beach.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Terminating Select and giving authors the tools they need to sell more books is needed now."


Amazon has announced for several years that increasing Prime membership and sales to Prime members is a very important long strategy. Amazon isn't alone in this. Other large companies are also trying to give consumers incentive to use them for a variety of things. Apple and Google are both trying to pull consumers into their orbit.

Amazon uses Select as a promotional tool for increasing Prime membership. In their recent press release about Countdown, they said they had 400,000 exclusive titles. Last month they said they had 350,000 Select books. That's a lot of authors making the decision for themselves. (Anyone know how a book can be exclusive if it's not in Select? Maybe there is way for the 50,000 to be exclusive.)

So it's hard to say if Select is good or bad for Amazon unless we know how Amazon judges its effect on Prime. Anyone know? They never call me like they call everyone else.

Authors definitely have an interest in Select, some for, and some against. But what reason do we have to think authors' wishes trump their Prime program?

Perhaps I'm just a prawn on Amazon's big chessboard. Ain't this a great country?



> There is no good reason we can't instantly set our prices and initiate sales. There is no good reason not to have native perma-free. There is no good reason not to have native coupons. There is no good reason not to treat us like vendors instead of people taking advantage of a service.


We are vendors. We are suppliers to Amazon. Amazon sells the goods to the customer. The author does not.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Adam Pepper said:


> Sure. We are to blame the same way each individual grain of sand is to blame for the tide washing over the beach.


So grains of sand convince one another to let themselves be dragged off into the undertow? As people have pointed out, Select is a voluntary program and if we didn't all actively or through inaction keep propping the thing up, it would create a greater urgency with Amazon to stop it.



H. S. St. Ours said:


> 8. Stay in Select and promote MatchBook 2-for-1s this holiday season.


MatchBook isn't a Select 'benefit'. Everyone can (and should) use it.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> (Anyone know how a book can be exclusive if it's not in Select?)


If it's part of Amazon's publishing program rather than through KDP. Montlake, Thomas & Mercer, 47 North, Amazon Crossing, Amazon Encore, Kindle Singles, Grand Harbor Press, Little A, Jet City, Two Lions, Skyscape...all of these are Amazon-exclusive but not in Select.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Gretchen Galway said:


> Speaking as a customer, I don't like KLL at all. I have a new Paperwhite, and the KLL is buried under a pull-down screen. Once there, the offerings are poorly sorted, and it's too confusing for me to bother. I never know if a book I want is in the program, and by the time I skim the top of the lists, I've lost interest and just go looking for a book I know I want, regardless of price.
> 
> I have Prime, but have borrowed a book once. At first I kept "saving" my freebie, but then I got fed up with how random the assortment was, and how difficult to search, I moved on to a public library with a great ebook selection.
> 
> Perhaps I'm in the minority. How many Prime members use their book every month? (asking, not rhetorical.)


I use prime for free shipping and free video more then for KLL. As to my monthly borrow, I'll look for specific books and if they are in KLL, I'll borrow them. Or I'll see a book here or elsewhere that I'm sort of interested in and then when the 1st of the month comes, I'll borrow it.
But I have so many books on my TBR list, that I will often forget to borrow a book.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> So grains of sand convince one another to let themselves be dragged off into the undertow? As people have pointed out, Select is a voluntary program and if we didn't all actively or through inaction keep propping the thing up, it would create a greater urgency with Amazon to stop it.


We are grains of sand in the sense that we are powerless over the tide that is Amazon. This idea that we can somehow band together and conquer Amazon and its evil minion Select is both futile and misguided.

I used Select for a while and did great with it. Now I'm out because it stopped helping me and I was actually selling well on B&N. My decisions were based on self interest and a realistic assessment of the market and my place in it.


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## Dan Fiorella (Oct 14, 2012)

What are the other companies doing to lure you away from Select?


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I expect that as soon as Amazon decides that, no, it's not really profitable or good for them, that they will terminate it. Remember, though, they're not really in the business of pleasing authors, they're in the business of pleasing customers. In many cases, those goals align, but not always. And where they don't, Amazon will choose on the side of 'happy customers' rather than 'happy authors'. It's their business model.


I have to disagree. Amazon sees authors *as* customers. This starts with Jeff and trickles straight down. He has an especially soft spot for authors, and everyone I've met in the company feels the same way. The front of the KDP and CreateSpace T-Shirts say, simply: We Love Authors. And it pervades the culture in Seattle.

I've been to events and to meetings on behalf of book publishers, the film industry, and Amazon. It isn't even close which of the three of these values writers. Book publishers come in dead last. And this goes back to before I had a fraction of my success.

But which of us is right? Maybe neither. Perhaps it's somewhere in-between. We only have our own experiences to go on.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

I hate to say it, but I'm finding a lot of the arguments on here a bit silly. What Amazon is trying to do is so obvious as to be laughable. They're trying to make Amazon the most convenient place for the customer to get what they want. Not just books, but everything, and they are doing a damn good job of it. 80% of my online purchases are through Amazon. Why? Because the price is usually good, the item is easy to find, there are lots of reviews, and the purchase cycle is quick. And even more important, most of the time I'm not paying shipping. (Thank you Prime.)

While I do agree that Select needs to offer a lot more IF Amazon truly wants to lure the vast majority of authors into exclusivity and away from their competition. Free is not the answer. It never has been. Neither are little gimmicks like Countdown. Data is the answer. Demographics, click-thru rates, number of people who read the sample and then purchased, etc... If they offered such tools, it would help those of us who see this as a business (just as Amazon does) and simply want to sell more books by offering the product our customers want.

Select doesn't hurt us. If in fact it gives Amazon a greater number of books than their competition (and I have no idea if it does) then that is a good thing for all of us, even those NOT enrolled in Select as it results in a greater number of customers browsing for our books. 

It doesn't work for everyone. And it doesn't work for us as well as it did in the beginning. It probably works better now for Amazon, and that is what they are in it for...them, not us, and that's fine with me. I want Amazon to succeed as their success makes my success possible. (Notice I said "possible" and not "guaranteed.") 

I have been all in since the beginning, and I am remaining all in at least until the end of episode 15, at which point I will reassess. I do not use the free days, or any other promotions. I'm mostly in it because I have no desire to waste my time with vendors who aren't playing the game will enough to win, and don't appear to be willing to put forth the effort to compete. Am I losing sales? Possibly. Am I losing readers? Possibly. I really have no way of knowing. 

I do know one thing, however. My being in Select is not hurting anyone else. If you think otherwise you need to stop whining about the forces of evil holding you back and up your own game. Sorry to be harsh, but that's the reality of it.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> I have to disagree. Amazon sees authors *as* customers.


Maybe when I sell volume like you they will treat ***** the Author like they treat ***** the Customer. But no, they don't treat the majority of authors like customers. When I have a problem as a customer, they jump through hoops to help me. When I have a problem as an AUTHOR, they make ME jump through hoops. ***** the Customer has never gotten a nasty-gram threatening to pull my orders if I don't respond to some automated flag in five days. ***** the Customer can usually get a live person on the phone in ten minutes. ***** the Author can barely get a call back after five failed email attempts to explain a problem.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Well, I was totally against Select from the beginning, but also said I might change my mind later. Then I signed with a publisher for my next series and they also offered to help market the Gastien Series, but they are not the publisher. The owner of this company has always used Select and the free days and continues to. She does very well on her free days and afterwards, selling a ton of books per week. She really wanted to try the first book in Gastien in Select.

So, I agreed. I mean, if I'm going to ask for her help to market it, I need to be open-minded. Today is my first free day and she scheduled a Bookbub ad for it. We are spreading the free days around, today and tomorrow, two in Dec and 1 in Jan. Will it work? I don't know. 

What I do know is whatever else I've tried hasn't resulted in long term big sales. I also notice some of the people on here saying Select is bad, etc have just as poor, or worse, ratings than I do, so certainly what they are doing isn't helping them a whole lot on Amazon. They may be selling a ton other places, I don't know.

What I do know is I want to sell a lot on Amazon. So, the first book of my series is my test rat. Time will tell. If it doesn't work, I lost little. If if does, I've gained a lot.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Julie the Author can barely get a call back after five failed email attempts to explain a problem.


Try the Mayday! button.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2013)

J. Tanner said:


> Try the Mayday! button.


KDP doesn't have a Mayday button! lol


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> KDP doesn't have a Mayday button! lol


It would sure be nice if they did!


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> KDP doesn't have a Mayday button! lol


I know, right?

When I first saw that ad I was like "where's the KDP Mayday button?!"


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Adam Pepper said:


> We are grains of sand in the sense that we are powerless over the tide that is Amazon. This idea that we can somehow band together and conquer Amazon and its evil minion Select is both futile and misguided.


This is what people say right before precisely nothing gets done.

This isn't about 'conquering' Amazon, this is about not actively or passively lending our aid to a bad system. This is about boycotting a poor service and touting good ones. This is about not encouraging people to participate in things that have negative effects on the community. And this is about challenging faulty logic that serves to perpetuate the bad system.

That's why I said 'we are all to blame'. Select wouldn't be as big as it is if we didn't keep feeding the damn thing. We still offer the same Select advice that stopped being relevant more than a year ago and just let things like 'well borrow were better for me' go unquestioned ('well what did you do to sell on those other platforms?'). And worst of all, we pretend we can't do anything about it when we _have_ been doing something about it: making it bigger.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> 'well what did you do to sell on those other platforms?').


So what have you done on those other platforms that has been successful in a big way? I would truly like to know, as I've been in "those other platforms" for a few years. The only time I see good sales at B&N is when I do Bookbub ad. Kobo? Laughable. ARe/Omni? Not unless you are romance or erotica, even though Omni is for other genres. I doubt a single book sells in Omni.

So, what do you do?


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

> When I first saw that ad I was like "where's the KDP Mayday button?!"


Yeah. And I think that clearly illustrates Julie's point.

KDP authors aren't quite treated like customers (where Amazon has achieved almost unbelievabe innovation in service), and aren't quite treated like vendors/partners (where presumably more data and control are available). There's this weird middle ground for KDP. They've done too much to open the market to us for me to complain about it, but I think in comparison to the other groups KDP is a bit second class.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> This is what people say right before precisely nothing gets done.
> 
> Select wouldn't be as big as it is if we didn't keep feeding the d*mn thing.


Except I got plenty done. I sold a bunch of books when it was useful then bailed when it was no longer helping me.

Who's we? Who is feeding this hungry beast? And what grand powers do you believe this collective we possesses?


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2013)

As long as free is *viewed* as a viable marketing strategy people will continue to put their books in Select.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Adam Pepper said:


> Except I got plenty done. I sold a bunch of books when it was useful then bailed when it was no longer helping me.


I'm reasonably sure you know I'm talking about and won't dignify this.



> Who's we? Who is feeding this hungry beast? And what grand powers do you believe this collective we possesses?


I know you know what I'm talking about here (seeing as it was in the same paragraph), but I'll bite.

'We' are us, the self-pub community and we are feeding Select by still sending new authors to Select; still offering advice that's a year or more out of date concerning it. At best, it's still sort of promoted as 'training wheels' for newbies to dip their toes in, but the dynamics of working from within Select is nothing like working outside of it.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Greg Strandberg said:


> As long as free is *viewed* as a viable marketing strategy people will continue to put their books in Select.


It was for me for a very long time. It may still be. You haven't convinced me that it isn't for some people under some circumstances.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> I'm reasonably sure you know I'm talking about and won't dignify this.
> 
> I know you know what I'm talking about here (seeing as it was in the same paragraph), but I'll bite.
> 
> 'We' are us, the self-pub community and we are feeding Select by still sending new authors to Select; still offering advice that's a year or more out of date concerning it. At best, it's still sort of promoted as 'training wheels' for newbies to dip their toes in, but the dynamics of working from within Select is nothing like working outside of it.


In what way are the "dynamics" different? I don't see that in the least.

ETA: Amazon will terminate Select when it is to their benefit. They obviously don't think that is the case now since they recently tweaked an improvement to the program.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

And I would still like an answer to my question (see my last post on this thread before this one). It's easy to sit and say such and such is hurting all of us, but what have you found works? Especially with other places that aren't Amazon? Please know, I'm not trying to be an asshat. Lord knows I was against Select from the start...but it someone shows me (and they did) that it works for them (and continues to) and they want to try my book in it, I'm going to...because so far I haven't found anything to help at the other venues. So I can sit here and b*tch until I'm blue in the face about Select and free books, etc etc...but if I don't find some way to increase sales, I'm only b*tching. Not very valuable, either.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> In what way are the "dynamics" different? I don't see that in the least.


When you're under Select, a lot of promotional options are out of reach, especially hefty samples, which can trigger a nasty-gram. You also only get seven days worth of free promos (meaning you'll typically have to promote all in one big burst rather than via steady 'percussion' methods).

With Countdown, things changed even more with the pricing lockout limiting the kinds of promotions you can do even more, and the Countdown promo being in one contiguous block rather than something you can space out like freebies.

Outside of Select, you're a great deal more nimble and have a lot more free reign when it comes to timing promos. Not to mention your newfound ability to sell in communities more tied to a specific platform (I've learned a LOT about that now that I'm on DriveThru Fiction, for example. I simply did not exist for these guys before--and they're my target market).

I mean, you _can_ work the same way you do inside Select outside of it, but it's not the most efficient, cost-effective, or sustainable way to play it. Sort of like how someone who always drive the same route to and from work because of a road closure might still waste gas going the old way once the closure is over.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Caddy said:


> And I would still like an answer to my question (see my last post on this thread before this one). It's easy to sit and say such and such is hurting all of us, but what have you found works?


Well, the short answer is that this is precisely part of the problem: there isn't as much infrastructure for promoting to other platforms. I've seen *maybe* two listing sites that even have a field for other platforms. Same goes for places that sell add space--they only ask for Amazon links.

What I've been doing is asking people taking my advertising dollar f they'll consider adding other links. I haven't hit up a *lot* of folks yet, but most of them at least say they'll look into it (usually, they're using a plugin for automation or a vanilla Google form, so they need to gen something new up).


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> If Amazon believes this, they have no idea how entertainment has ever worked ever and REALLY no idea how anything works in the digital age.
> 
> Entertainment is not like other businesses. It's not like selling beans where someone will buy a can of beans and go 'welp, now I'm set for beans. No need for more beans until I eat these'. Entertainment isn't a thing you can 'fill up' on.
> 
> ...


Holy stuff-I-can't-write-because-it-won't-get-past-the-filter. You're a genius.

I always sort of knew that about you, even at the original 3rd Edition WOTC board, back in the day


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Thank you for answering. Yes, I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, I wasn't seeing the results I wanted to by doing that. I could add links to promos all day and see maybe a couple of sales, except when using Bookbub. It's like the customers at the other sites are in a coma. Now, if Select doesn't work for me, then I'll have to try it again. It won't bother me to do so, as I was an advocate for staying out of Select for a long time. In fact, it will be a bigger surprise if it works! A pleasant one, but still a surprise. If it does, I'll stay, as I want my series read. I can fully appreciate your feelings, as they are much like mine were. However, I don't feel I'm "hurting the community" any more than perma-free and .99 books do. Or don't. Depending on one's view. I have to try everything possible for MY books. That is my #1 priority in this writing game. I wouldn't backstap someone or do something dishonest, but certainly if Select works I will use it. If you want to feel I'm hurting you by that, I can't help it. You don't pay our mortgage. 

I would love to cross promote with others. Every time I see someone asking about it on here it's for romance or YA or a genre I don't write. So, I've kind of given up. I've asked about HF and it never gets anywhere. I only have so much time. I can't spend hours and hours trying to convince people to jump on board and promote. And, the couple of times I did join something like that, I promoted and most of the others didn't. Once bitten, twice shy.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> I have to disagree. Amazon sees authors *as* customers


Last time Jeff called, he just called me ASIN. He didn't even send a T-shirt. I suppose it's a step up from Asshat, but a T-shirt would have been nice.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm still waiting to hear how Select is hurting ALL authors.

I'm usually impressed with your logic, Vaalingrad. This time, I'm just not seeing it. Saying Select is a bad thing for everyone is like saying that if everyone did the same thing, we'd all strike it rich. Every case is unique, and you very well know this. Is Select a bad choice for you? Only you know.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

Rykymus said:


> I'm still waiting to hear how Select is hurting ALL authors.
> 
> I'm usually impressed with your logic, Vaalingrad. This time, I'm just not seeing it. Saying Select is a bad thing for everyone is like saying that if everyone did the same thing, we'd all strike it rich. Every case is unique, and you very well know this. Is Select a bad choice for you? Only you know.


Select has been excellent for me. It seems a fairly straight forward equation - go in select and be exclusive to Amazon, which means you get 'borrows'. Or don't and use other sales channels if you think it's of more benefit.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

John Blackport said:


> I always sort of knew that about you, even at the original 3rd Edition WOTC board, back in the day


My god it's a small world! This is awesome, what was your handle back then?



Rykymus said:


> I'm still waiting to hear how Select is hurting ALL authors.


Here's the thing: that people manage to be successful while under Select doesn't mean that they wouldn't be _better_ if Select wasn't there.

As I've said before, in order to convince people to use Select, they offer:

- 7 Freebie Days per 90 days
- A 7-day countdown run (independently exclusive to the freebies) per 90 Days
- Borrows.

Because these are the carrots they use to convince people to join Select, until Select is gone or massively retooled, Amazon will never offer:

- Native Free pricing
- Quick and reliable price changes.
- Scheduled price changes
- Strike-through Discounts
- Native Coupons

The strategy behind Select is a major obstacle between us and having those things. Think of the massive promotional power and diversity the industry would have if the industry leader provided these.

That is how Select hurts us all, because it is an obstruction to bigger and better things.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

I believe Amazon's own imprints are all in Select, or Prime-eligible. At least the ones I see when I go through the fantasy lists are. For fantasy, Prime contains some indies and some 47North, with occasionally another Amazon imprint slipping in. At least for the fantasy popularity lists.

This screenshot is from my spreadsheet, again this is the Fantasy category only, parsing the popularity list. You can see how # of books in Select declined after they shifted the algorithms (between Mar and May 2012), and then settled into 20-25% of the Top 100. In the past year I started seeing Amazon's imprints showing up, all in Prime. So in this chart if there were 30 books in Select, and 10 Amazon books, that means 20 Indie/Small press books are in Select on that day. I've never seen a major corporate book in Select.










I can't say how other categories compare as fantasy is the only thing I go through carefully.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

If Amazon gets rid of Select, will Amazon or independent authors decide what tools are offered by Amazin to authors?


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## KristenDaRay (Aug 4, 2012)

As a Prime Member I would lose incentives that I am paying for if that happened so Amazon probably isn't going to give that up because like someone said before, some customer is paying for that exclusivity.

As a prime member I get:
Books that have free runs
Free 2 day shipping
Prime video (which I loved so much that I cut off netflix and I haven't had cable in over two years.)

So if they take that away, there are going to be a lot of very angry customers because that is what I am paying for. Why would I pay that money for prime service if everywhere had the book at the same marked down price. Nope. Only those books in select. It makes since. And I doubt it is failing them at all at the moment.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Because these are the carrots they use to convince people to join Select, until Select is gone or massively retooled, Amazon will never offer:
> 
> - Native Free pricing
> - Quick and reliable price changes.
> ...


Did Amazon offer any of these things before Select?


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Vaalingrade, your error lies in the assumption that Amazon decides what tools to provide in return for exclusivity because of author enrollment levels. Nothing could be further from the truth. Amazon will make changes to Select if they believe those changes will further their agenda, which in the end is simply to make more money. Do you for a moment believe that Amazon would bow to the demands of enraged indie authors? After all, they didn't bow to traditional publishers.

Also, it is possible for an author to be exclusive to Amazon out of choice, and not because of the exclusivity requirement of Select. As I've already said, I don't use the promotional tools that Select offers because they are of no value to me. (Frankly, I find the Matchbook program to be worthless as well.) I am exclusive to Amazon because the other vendors, are of no value to me at the present time. As long as I am not planning on using these other vendors, being in Select gives me the benefit of additional income through borrows. (Which, at my price point, is usually a few pennies more per borrow than per sale.)

The collective power that you perceive indie authors to have simply does not exist, and likely never will.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2013)

How would Amazon announce the end of Select?  They'd have to make it seem like something better was there.  And it'd be real hard for many to buy that Select wasn't a failure.  How does Amazon extricate themselves cleanly?  Countdown?

How much money does Amazon make off those prime members taking advantage of Select?  How will they fill that hole on their balance sheet?  If I was heading up KDP I'd need to think of these things.

1. Get out clean
2. Alternative in place
3. Market sustainability
4. Keeping readers happy
5. Attracting top authors


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Did Amazon offer any of these things before Select?


Kobo and B&N don't have Select. Do they offer these things?


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Kobo and B&N don't have Select. Do they offer these things?


No, but they don't sell well, either.

Vaalingrade has a point in that, if not for Select, many more interesting ways to promote books would be possible for a company that is currently the leader.
However, they could certainly offer coupons - nothing to do with Select. It's just a better way to "gift".


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## LarryNW (Sep 6, 2013)

From my perspective as a 15 year ad creative, there has never been the "it" formula. No matter what I put into a campaign, what kind of media strategy was determined, and the quality execution of the creative - in the end - there were just too many variables to account for success/failure. 

I have one book out and have learned valuable lessons within KDP and now as I come out of it:

1. The freebie number for me was okay: 1500
2. I then listed the book at $0.99 and it's selling on a Small scale, but has remained on three top 100 lists since its debut in August. Free=word of mouth
3. When the second book is ready, I'm going to use KPD for the first one and price the second one at $2.99

Will this work? I dunno? It's an avenue to try. 

I've worked on big ad campaigns with millions spent for a dismal return and vice versa. I'm with Hugh on this - you gotta dial it around to fit your needs. I hear terrible things about B&N and Kobe - but every now and again - I hear a great story. I just keep turning that dial until what I create finds the people I'm creating it for.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Kobo and B&N don't have Select. Do they offer these things?


Smaller vendors like Smashwords, AllRomance, DriveThruFiction or XinXii offer many of these things and don't require exclusivity. DriveThruFiction has an exclusivity option in return for a higher royalty. I don't know details, because I've never used it.

As for Select, none of my books have ever been in Select. The supposed perks of Select (Countdown promotions and free days) don't interest me, I doubt I'd get many borrows considering I mostly write shorter lengths and exclusivity clashes with my business objectives. And I generally agree with Vaalingrade that Select is not a good idea for many, if not most indies.

However, I don't mind the existence of the Select program. I resented Select back when it first started up and everybody and their sister set their books free, killing sales (including mine) in the process. But my sales eventually bounced back and have been growing slowly but steadily, so the existence of Select no longer bothers me. Let those who want to use it use it. Everybody must find their own path.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

CoraBuhlert said:


> Smaller vendors like Smashwords, AllRomance, DriveThruFiction or XinXii offer many of these things and don't require exclusivity. DriveThruFiction has an exclusivity option in return for a higher royalty.
> 
> As for Select, none of my books have ever been in Select. The supposed perks of Select (Countdown promotions and free days) don't interest me and exclusivity clashes with my business objectives. And I generally agree with Vaalingrade that Select is not a good idea for many, if not most indies.
> 
> However, I don't mind the existence of the Select program. I resented Select back when it first started up and everybody and their sister set their books free, killing my sales in the process. But my sales eventually bounced back and have been growing slowly but steadily, so the existence of Select no longer bothers me. Let those who want to use it use it.


Sure firms offer them. But absence of exclusivity doesn't mean the desired list will be available. B&N and Kobo demonstrate that. Amazon had the opportunity to offer those things, and they still have that opportunity. They made a choice. And the range of choices they have is far greater than Select vs that list of stuff. Im not important enough for Amazon to bow to my wishes.

Independent authors compete with each other. Some use the opportunities better than others.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

KristenDaRay said:


> As a Prime Member I would lose incentives that I am paying for if that happened so Amazon probably isn't going to give that up because like someone said before, some customer is paying for that exclusivity.
> 
> As a prime member I get:
> Books that have free runs
> ...


Sorry, but, for me, that doesn't follow.

Prime has been around longer than 'select', longer than indie publishing, longer than the kindle. It was initially purely an expedited shipping thing: pay a flat amount now, and you get 2 day shipping for a year, and one day shipping for just a small additional amount.

I don't need to be a Prime member to get the books that go free via select. "Select" is a completely different program to "Prime".

I do need to be a Prime member to borrow books in the KOLL. "Select" books are in the KOLL. But so are other books from non-indie publishers -- though, admittedly, not all that many. 

If the _main_ reason you have prime is for the monthly borrow, you might be wasting money. Because at $79 per year, that makes each borrow cost a little over $6. Most of the books in the KOLL regularly sell for $4 or less.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Sure firms offer them. But absence of exclusivity doesn't mean the desired list will be available. B&N and Kobo demonstrate that. Amazon had the opportunity to offer those things, and they still have that opportunity. They made a choice.


I don't think anybody was saying that Amazon would necessarily offer options like coupons or time limited discounts, if not for Select.

Nonetheless, it is worth pointing out that niche vendors do offer many of those options without requiring exclusivity. And while it's not a good fit for every author and every book, some people make good money with those niche vendors.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

CoraBuhlert said:


> I don't think anybody was saying that Amazon would necessarily offer options like coupons or time limited discounts, if not for Select.


Isnt that exactly what Vaalingrade was saying?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm not saying that definitely would. offer them. But while Select is using knock-off equivalents, they definitely won't.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Quiss said:


> Vaalingrade has a point in that, if not for Select, many more interesting ways to promote books would be possible for a company that is currently the leader.


Amazon could've offered those perks before Select, but they didn't. They could offer them now, alongside Select, but they don't. There's no reason to blame Select for Amazon's overall marketing strategy. It's merely a product of it. If Select disappeared tomorrow, do you think Amazon will suddenly sell epubs?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> I'm not saying that definitely would. offer them. But while Select is using knock-off equivalents, they definitely won't.


Then we can't assert authors are being harmed by Select. It falls in the realm of speculation. Its just as reasonable to speculate that authors are being helped by Select.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Adam Pepper said:


> They could offer them now, alongside Select, but they don't.


If they're trying to use the ability to discount books (under HEAVY restrictions) on a schedule with the strikethrough to encourage people going into exclusivity, why in the world would that offer unrestricted discounting and coupons?

That's like saying 'if you give up this luscious chocolate cake, we'll give you a single Hershey's kiss'.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Why in the world would Amazon offer unrestricted discounting? Do you expect to be able to set your sale price to, say, $5, then discount it to $1 and still get a royalty rate calculated on $5?

I'm not trying to defend Amazon here, but just because you don't know why they choose to do or not do something doesn't mean they don't have a legitimate reason. Nor does the fact that you disagree with their decisions make their decisions bad, evil, or harmful to indie authors as a whole.

If you are going to continue to cry that Select is hurting indie's, you need to offer something other than mere speculation lest you appear a fool.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> 'We' are us, the self-pub community and we are feeding Select by still sending new authors to Select; still offering advice that's a year or more out of date concerning it.


There is no single self-pub community. There is a set of self-publishers, but their attitudes differ to such an extent that the core of common interests is not sufficient to constitute a community. And nobody has standing to speak for any community.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> The Select Program should be terminated. It is not a good program for either the authors or Amazon.
> 
> Instead of the Select Program the following changes should be made.
> 
> ...


This thread has been interesting since there is a lot of resentment against Select. It mainly has to do with the exclusive requirement.

In the short run, it might make sense to be exclusive for new writers to temporarily accept the exclusive requirement. However, for the long run, it is essential that the author gets the books out there in every sales outlet possible. Then the author will get more visibility and develop a following of fans.

When I left Select six months ago, I was a little nervous since I was getting a few borrows which was a steady source of income. When I put my books into D2D and at first, the sales were slow. This month however has been a great month since my books are selling well there.

I also take great pride in being able to say that I sell for the main devices. So when people ask me where they can buy my books, I tell them that I sell to Amazon, Apple, and B&N, and Kobo so the books are widely available regardless of what type of device they have.

Many have rejected Select and moved on since we realize that the future requires us to make our book available everywhere. Putting your eggs in one basket is not good for the long haul.

Will Select ever be terminated? Who knows since we don't control what Amazon does. However, we can make the choice to accept it or reject it. A lot of us have rejected it.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Select made sense for Amazon when it was introduced for both parties. Something had to be done to control the herd mentality. Many forget the downward spiral to 99c and then the lowest denominator of free, by authors setting books at perma free elsewhere and hoping for a price match.

99c dominated the upper levels of the charts, with free charts visible right alongside.

Select, for Amazon, killed four birds with one stone (Or so it hoped). The free 5 days was a good enough carrot for many not to need perma free books. Also the free downloads were high enough for the algorithms to ensure paid sales after the free period, so it made it an easier decision for authors to increase eBook prices and to convince some that the downward spiral in prices was not the way to go. And thirdly, by introducing borrows, it added a perk to their loyal prime customers. These are obviously a customer base that spend more than the average customer, for it to be worthwhile for them to pay a fee for benefits. Fourthly, with Apple entering the market and others gaining a foothold, it was seen as a way of them being denied a way of having claim to an equal catalogue of eBooks. Basically, Select has rounded up a good wedge of wild steers, corralled them and tamed them. ( And for now, I am one of them)

All that has happened, is that various parts of the free algorithms have been too successful at times as a promotional tool, at the expense of paid books. No one is saying that free isn't a good marketing tool, but overuse can be self defeating, especially for Amazon and their bottom line, so they made tweaks to the algorithms, hid the free chart, and changed terms with the free promotion sites. They have even made it harder for a book free elsewhere to be price matched. If that is not a clear enough indication of their policy, then I don't know what is. 

Amazon will only do what is right for them and their bottom line. Indies were an important factor in them moving kindles to gain a near monopoly, by claiming the cheapest and total number of eBooks in their available catalogue. (That my friends is probably as far as the love extends for indie authors unleass you are a bestseller) Their price philosophy is simple and that is for eBooks to sell between $2.99 and $9.99. We can all see that with their royalty structure. You don't hear about the big publishers b*tching about indies to the same extent any more, because between them and Amazon, they now have a handle on how to work eBooks to maximize sales.

Free is still obviously a pain in their butt, so it is clear as to why they have introduced countdown.

All I can say, is that if Amazon set things to their own advantage, then it is up to each author to weigh up all the facts and their personal results and choose either to be in select, or not. It won't make a blind bit of difference to Amazon either way. They will continue with the path they have set.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

I freely admit, I despise Select, but for me it is a good thing. Even though I don't use it and will never do so again.

How can this be?

Because it's less competition elsewhere. Because Amazon is only a third of my writing income.

Making sales elsewhere than Amazon takes time. It takes a gradual build up and some work. Most seem more interested in Amazon's bells and whistles with the instant results. Can't blame them, I suppose. It all looks good.

Until you get e-mails and messages from non-Amazon customers who want to know how to get your material.

Amazon is about their customers. I have to be about _mine_.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

I used to be in Select but slowly moved out of it as I started to realise that the potential gains by getting my books out through other vendors more than offset the losses such as borrows. So for me Select did not work.

However for Amazon it does work. It makes them money, cuts out their competition to an extent, damages free which is basically just an expense to them, and helps promotions of things like kindles. They aren't going to dump it any time soon, and to expect them to do it because it hurts some indies is laughable. Don't forget we aren't buying from them so their motivation to change because we object is very limited.

What they are dumping little by little is free. First they changed the algorhythms so a give away didn't raise a book's ranking as high as an actual sale. Then they introduced Countdown - note that you can either use five free days OR seven promotional days - and they sweetened the deal for authors by throwing in some promotion for you. (That is sufficient for me to use select for my next book - for the first ninety days.)

As for the lending library it's a means of locking in customers. They aren't going to dump that either.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

psychotick said:


> and they sweetened the deal for authors by throwing in some promotion for you.


What promotion? The off-chance that your title MAY appear on their Countdown page? Geez, thanks, Amazon.
At this point I wouldn't even think about entering Select just for this feature.

Seems that for every argument FOR Select, there is one against it. Enough to boggle the mind!
I also agree that Amazon is doing everything possible to discourage freebies. A few more "adjustments" that we here haven't even suspected yet, and perma-free might well be in trouble. Don't know how but those folks are a three steps ahead of us.
Roll with the punches, I say.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I use up every prime loan every month. I have not missed one since they implemented it.  . 

I just put stuff that looks interesting on a special wishlist, which is accessible from my kindle. So I don't have to hunt down something on the last day. Now I wish more publishers were in it. 
I have to be perfectly honest, because most indy's that have their books in the select program put them up for free at some point, the books I am interested in, I often already own as a freebie. So after a while, I tend to not go for those indy's anymore as my monthly prime loan as a couple of times I did that and the next month the books was free anyway. I have shifted over the the amazon imprints quite a bit. They have enough releases to keep me going on prime. 

I also noticed that they don't put their own books on free and they rarely use the 99 cents as a sale, they go down to 1.99 at the most. So I guess in my head I get more "value" when I borrow a book on prime that doesn't go free. Just food for thought. 

I didn't get prime for the books though, I had prime for shipping way before that and I pay for the shipping. I get everything else as a bonus. Me likey.  . Happy customer, happy amazon.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> However, for the long run, it is essential that the author gets the books out there in every sales outlet possible. Then the author will get more visibility and develop a following of fans.


Is it possible an author can have a successful strategy where the book is not in every possible outlet? Is it reasonable to dismiss all other strategies without knowing any more about them?



> Will Select ever be terminated? Who knows since we don't control what Amazon does. However, we can make the choice to accept it or reject it. A lot of us have rejected it.


I agree many have rejected it. But we can also observe the authors of 350,000 books have accepted it.



> Seems that for every argument FOR Select, there is one against it. Enough to boggle the mind!


Could be. But no author has to justify her Select decision with argument. Each author knows her individual situation, and makes decisions based on her own welfare, not the desires of others authors. In many cases an author can believe the theories of others or her own lying eyes.

And argument? Most of what I see here is projection. Authors make a Select decision, and then want others to decide the same way. Why? Whose interests are being served by the advocacy?

I wish everyone the best in their Select decision. None of my business what way they go. I expect nobody will make their decision based on mine..

Aint this a great country?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

To those that are saying Amazon is making free harder to find, I want to know how you are coming with this.  I click on best sellers.  There is top 100 paid/top 100 free.  Or I just type the word free in a search and oh gee only 57,000+ pop up.  Or if I want mysteries, just click on mysteries then arrow over to price low to high.  
Oh yes it is real hard to find free books.  There are also thousands of free apps and free MP3's.

Though today it was hard to find a free book I wanted that I didn't already have.  I use onehundredfreebooks and ereaderiq to find them.

So please do not try to sell me buffalo chips because you don't like something.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

While I was getting a haircut this morning at a real barber shop, I got to thinking.  We all assume that Amazon loves Select and lays awake at night worrying about those that leave it.

However, maybe Amazon doesn't care and would love to get rid of Select.  It is costing them a lot of money each month for borrows.

Would anyone actually leave Prime if they didn't get a free book?  Most people seem to get it for the free shipping so it might not make a difference.

Without Select, the number of free books would drop significantly.  Then Amazon could get back to making money off of the books.  When the Kindle first got started, free books was an incentive to buy the device.  Now the Kindle is the best reading device on the market and sells itself.

Then all Amazon would have to do is do away with permi-free books and they would be out of the free books completely.  

I wonder if this isn't Amazon's strategy since there are no real incentives to stay in Select.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> I wonder if this isn't Amazon's strategy since there are no real incentives to stay in Select.


Incentives? There are 350,000 books are in Select. We can observe that. We don't have to understand or agree with the reasons those authors have. The number increases every month.



> Without Select, the number of free books would drop significantly. Then Amazon could get back to making money off of the books.


Would Amazons book revenue and profits increase or decrease without free books? How do we know? Is there a number of free downloads per month that leads to maximum revenue and profit? What is the time frame over which Amazon thinks the free books will generate an incremental increase in total profit? Are they concerned with short term profits, medium term, or long term market positioning?

Anyone know how select fits into Amazons overall corporate strategy? That might be important.

I sure don't know. Like I said, they don't call me.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

I don't think Amazon is going to pull the plug on Select yet since I just received an email from them introducing a new Select feature called Kindle Countdown Deals. Not exactly sure how it works but one of the features is that you get to keep your 70% royalties even if you set your discount below $2.99 for a specific period of time. Nice to get 70% off 99c.

"Introducing Kindle Countdown Deals: We are excited to introduce our newest KDP Select benefit – Kindle Countdown Deals. This is a new book promotion tool that lets you provide readers with limited-time promotional discounts for your Kindle books, available on Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk....." - Amazon


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Wild Rivers said:


> While I was getting a haircut this morning at a real barber shop, I got to thinking. We all assume that Amazon loves Select and lays awake at night worrying about those that leave it.
> 
> However, maybe Amazon doesn't care and would love to get rid of Select. It is costing them a lot of money each month for borrows.
> 
> ...


Where are you getting this idea that Select and Free are costing Amazon money? Are you their accountant? What proof do you have? If Amazon was actually losing money, they would not have it. They would have gotten rid of it.

Here is the thing: Amazon could spend $1000's on advertising to get people to their store or they can take advantage of things like giving away books that actually cost them next to nothing to store and get people in the door that way. The freebies get customers in the door then they spend more money there than say Overstock (who does pay for big ads on tv).


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Wild Rivers said:


> Then all Amazon would have to do is do away with permi-free books and they would be out of the free books completely.


I've wondered how they'd go about that.
Since they insist on having the lowest-priced books anywhere, they have to continue to price match free.
The only option to that would be to simply kick out any book that is offered for less elsewhere. Thus reducing their inventory and a "loss leader" draw that doesn't cost them anything in the general scheme of things. I don't see that happening.
I think all of this is just an "adjustment" because the initial freebie offering was more effective than they had anticipated and they're dialing that down.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Where are you getting this idea that Select and Free are costing Amazon money?


From an accounting viewpoint, 30% of 0 is still 0. However, if the same book cost $2.99, Amazon would get 30%. So 30% of $2.99 is $.90. If you consider the large number of free books that Amazon has to deal with for nothing, then it is costing them money which they could be earning if the book were sold.

I am a retired accountant and if their accountants aren't aware of how this works, Amazon needs to hire new accountants.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Amazon is trying to reduce free, but it's definitely not because it _costs_ them anything. Amazon doesn't have hosting costs because Amazon is the webhost for a huge chunk of major businesses, including themselves.

Also, if you look at your Royalties by Week, you'll see that they take money out of your royalties for delivering the file. Yeah, that something on the order of 1000% what it costs them to deliver that file... if they weren't the hosting company for the file. Which they are.

Edit: Yeah, servers and code monkeys still cost, but what I'm getting at is, their 'expenses' for free books is next to nothing and they bring more people onto the site where they will buy milk or 'neck messagers' or Steering wheel laptop trays.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

The argument isn't whether Select is good or bad for any particular author. As Terence said, (and I'm sure we all agree) every case is different. The argument should the program be terminated. Since that is a call that only Amazon can make, the point is rather moot. 

I'm still waiting for someone to show my how the existence and/or participation in Select hurts indie authors. So far, all I've read is personal opinion being presented as if it were irrefutable fact. Opinions are fine, but they're not facts, they're just theories.

I don't consider myself in competition with anyone other than myself. I'm fine staying in Select for now. I'm not hurting anyone (other than possibly myself) by being there.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Since they insist on having the lowest-priced books anywhere, they have to continue to price match free.


Do they actually price match anymore? When I put my books on D2D, I put some of my books on for .99. Due to price matching, the price on Amazon would be lowered to .99 so it would look like the reader was getting a great deal.

However, after a couple of months, none of the books had been lowered in price. So I was selling books cheaper at Apple, Kobo, and B&N.

To be fair, I raised my prices from .99 to 2.99 since Amazon wasn't doing their job. The books sold better and I made more money.

It doesn't seem that Amazon does anything they say; sometimes to our benefit.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> I'm not hurting anyone (other than possibly myself) by being there.


Actually you are hurting yourself since you have said you don't use any of the features of Select. You could put your books on D2D and start earning more money. However, maybe you are independent wealthy like me.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Wild Rivers said:


> From an accounting viewpoint, 30% of 0 is still 0. However, if the same book cost $2.99, Amazon would get 30%. So 30% of $2.99 is $.90. If you consider the large number of free books that Amazon has to deal with for nothing, then it is costing them money which they could be earning if the book were sold.
> 
> I am a retired accountant and if their accountants aren't aware of how this works, Amazon needs to hire new accountants.


No, it is not costing them anything. It is just not making them anything. There is a difference. Let's say it cost them .01 cent (1/10th of a cent) for every download and as Vaalingrade pointed out they charge the author let's say 10 cents a download then Amazon has made money and gotten people in the door to buy things like diapers, chihuahua seats, assorted electronics and oh hey look John Grisham's new book is only $6.99 for the Kindle edition. Amazon has just made way more than that little imaginary 90 cents.
I will give that you are looking at it strictly from a numbers standpoint. But you are not looking at it from a marketing standpoint. Loss leaders are actually what makes the stores money because it gets people in the door.
How much money do the stores lose by giving away free samples of food? And it is never the cheaper food for sampling.

Now here is the thing: free can hurt the author because if their book was 2.99 and they put it to free, they do lose 2.09+ whatever the file cost is.
Though on the free stuff, I can understand putting your first book for free but I cannot understand putting all your books free and some do it on the same day.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Though on the free stuff, I can understand putting your first book for free


I gave a lot of books away when Select was going strong and made a lot of money. Then I stopped giving away books since Select stopped working. I found I could sell the first book in the series. If I gave it away, it might get read or might not get read. If they bought it, then they went on and the bought the next book in the series all the way to the six book in the series.

Since readers are aware that I do not give books away or reduce prices, they tend to go ahead and buy my books since they know that they can't get them any other way. Since I am doing well on both Amazon and D2D, it seems to be working for me.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Wild Rivers said:


> From an accounting viewpoint, 30% of 0 is still 0. However, if the same book cost $2.99, Amazon would get 30%. So 30% of $2.99 is $.90. If you consider the large number of free books that Amazon has to deal with for nothing, then it is costing them money which they could be earning if the book were sold.
> 
> I am a retired accountant and if their accountants aren't aware of how this works, Amazon needs to hire new accountants.


If there are 100 free books downloaded each month, and each has a normal price of $2.99, how much is it costing Amazon each month?

How much revenue does Amazon book each month as a result of people coming to the site looking for free books, and then buying stuff?


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> If there are 100 free books downloaded each month, and each has a normal price of $2.99, how much is it costing Amazon each month?
> 
> How much revenue does Amazon book each month as a result of people coming to the site looking for free books, and then buying stuff?


Each book has a unit cost that Amazon is computing. It actually costs money for Amazon to keeps book in their system. Let's use Walmart as an example. Walmart gives away samples, but Amazon also gives away sample at the front of each book. However, these are only samples, not full pounds of cheese or cake.

Some people head straight for the sample area and get a free sample and then don't buy that product. That is not necessarily bad for Walmart unless too many free sample are given away. If Walmart started giving away cans of soup everyday then a lot of people would show up to get free soup. Soon the parking lot would be full and the real customers wouldn't have a place to park.

So Amazon has to be careful that they are getting a benefit out of the free books since there is a unit cost for each one. It might not be obvious to the public, but everything stocked does cost money.

Does free books mean that people actually go on to buy your books? They haven't in my experience.

There is one real problem with free books. Sometimes people download them just because they are free. The book may not be something that they actually want to read. Free is a lovely word and attracts people like flies to honey. That doesn't mean they actually buy your other books though.

Free is a myth that doesn't result in sales, but it is a nice myth so persists.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Wild Rivers said:


> Each book has a unit cost that Amazon is computing. It actually costs money for Amazon to keeps book in their system. Let's use Walmart as an example. Walmart gives away samples, but Amazon also gives away sample at the front of each book. However, these are only samples, not full pounds of cheese or cake.
> 
> Some people head straight for the sample area and get a free sample and then don't buy that product. That is not necessarily bad for Walmart unless too many free sample are given away. If Walmart started giving away cans of soup everyday then a lot of people would show up to get free soup. Soon the parking lot would be full and the real customers wouldn't have a place to park.
> 
> ...


So you are saying that Walmart then sells the boxes the samples came out of. I thought they used the entire box for the sample not here is your sample now buy the rest of the box. It doesn't matter if they let me sample the entire box or 3 bites. They are still out the entire box. 
Now since you know so much about Amazon and their costs, I want you to tell me exactly how much it is costing Amazon per file. If Amazon was really losing money then they would give up on it.

IF FREE DIDN'T RESULT IN SALES, WE WOULD NOT HAVE FREE.

You may be an accountant, heck my guess would have been a high school teacher of accounting.
Oh wait you said you were retired. Nevermind.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> If Amazon was really losing money then they would give up on it.


Why?

B.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Wild Rivers said:


> Each book has a unit cost that Amazon is computing. It actually costs money for Amazon to keeps book in their system. Let's use Walmart as an example. Walmart gives away samples, but Amazon also gives away sample at the front of each book. However, these are only samples, not full pounds of cheese or cake.
> 
> Some people head straight for the sample area and get a free sample and then don't buy that product. That is not necessarily bad for Walmart unless too many free sample are given away. If Walmart started giving away cans of soup everyday then a lot of people would show up to get free soup. Soon the parking lot would be full and the real customers wouldn't have a place to park.
> 
> ...


I agree it costs Amazon to maintain and transmit a copy of abook, and I agree they have to be careful.

But on the revenue side, how much revenue are they giving up by downloading those free books to people? How should the Amazon accountants be calculating that? If they know 100 copies of a book were downloaded in October, how should they calculate the incremental total revenue they would have received in October if the book had retail price of $2.99? What's the formula to get the total revenue not realized in October?

How do we know free is a myth that doesn't result in increased total revenue for Amazon?

How do we know free it is a myth that doesn't result in increased total revenue for individual authors?

Can we all agree there is some non-negative number of free downloads that maximizes revenue or profit for Amazon? Is there any reason to assert that number is zero?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

If it were not for free, I personally would not have spent 23.64 at Amazon since Halloween.   I found all but one of the authors I actually paid for because of their free promos.  I would not have spent the money on unknown to me otherwise.
That is not counting the 55 dollars for a laptop battery because oh I already have an account at Amazon.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

What bothers me is that Amazon will realize that they can charge us to publish our books.  When we first got into publishing, the situation was different.  It keeps changing as time goes on.  Business that don't realize this go under or lose their power.  How many big stores have gone under due to changing conditions.  

Amazon is top dog right now but may not stay there.  Perhaps someone else will come along and give them some real competition.

The point I am making is there is no real security for any of us.  Amazon sells many things and may eventually decide that selling eBooks is not profitable for them without major changes.  It does cost them money to publish our books since they have to pay salaries to a lot of people that work in maintaining the book database, programing, accountants, techs that tell you what you don't want to hear, etc.

In the three years I have been publishing, things have already changed.  Kindle is now firmly established and is the best reader out there; Amazon is recognized as a force to compete with. There are constantly changes and will be many more as Amazon evaluates how to recoup its costs and make a profit.

Sites like D2D and Smashwords employee less people so can do things cheaper.  Perhaps there will be many more than come along that can do a better job than Amazon.  Perhaps Amazon will decide to subcontract to a site like D2D since they are better at it than Amazon.

I think Select's days are numbered as changes keep happening and profit becomes more important.  The days of free books is almost over too.

Perhaps free publishing will also become a thing of the past.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

No matter who you sell through, a single vendor or multiple vendors, you are still at the mercy of their whims. I myself hope to build a large enough mailing list that I have the option of abandoning them all and selling directly through my own site. Of course, I wouldn't even consider such unless the terms through the various vendors just became too unfavorable, but I will make sure that I eventually have that option should it be needed.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Wild Rivers said:


> What bothers me is that Amazon will realize that they can charge us to publish our books. When we first got into publishing, the situation was different. It keeps changing as time goes on. Business that don't realize this go under or lose their power. How many big stores have gone under due to changing conditions.
> 
> Amazon is top dog right now but may not stay there. Perhaps someone else will come along and give them some real competition.
> 
> ...


If you want guaranteed job security, can I recommend working for the IRS or a funeral home?
Those are the only two guaranteed things in life. 
Amazon does already charge you to put your books on their website. Anywhere from 30% to 65% depending on the price of your book. So yes they can afford a few freebies.
Now I think I said it before but I will say it again. If you don't like Amazon's policies, sell elsewhere. It is that simple.
That is rather like I will only shop at ONE store for my chicken and hamburger. The company actually has 3 stores in town but we use ONE because they have the best customer service.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> What bothers me is that Amazon will realize that they can charge us to publish our books.


I bet they have already figured that out.



> Amazon is top dog right now but may not stay there. Perhaps someone else will come along and give them some real competition


Sure. Happens all the time in lots of markets.



> The point I am making is there is no real security for any of us.


Of course there isn't. Is there any reason to think there is? That's not how the rest of the economy works. No reason to think books are special.



> Amazon sells many things and may eventually decide that selling eBooks is not profitable for them without major changes. It does cost them money to publish our books since they have to pay salaries to a lot of people that work in maintaining the book database, programing, accountants, techs that tell you what you don't want to hear, etc


That probably gets into their cost accounting rather than financial accounting. They certainly have costs. They also have revenue. It's like any other enterprise.



> Sites like D2D and Smashwords employee less people so can do things cheaper.


I doubt it. They are doing different things. Neither D2D nor SW has anything approaching what Amazon has. They do far fewer things, and what they do diesn't match what Amazin has done. They are also in different businesses. Has anyone in the world matched Amazion's consumer search and discover tools? I'd say, No. SW and D2D are not doing what Amazin does.



> Perhaps there will be many more than come along that can do a better job than Amazon. Perhaps Amazon will decide to subcontract to a site like D2D since they are better at it than Amazon.


D2D distributes publishers stuff to online vendors. Amazon doesn't do that. It doesn't mean much to say D2D is better than Amazon at what Amazin doesn't do.



> I think Select's days are numbered as changes keep happening and profit becomes more important. The days of free books is almost over too


Businesses do not have immortal programs.



> Perhaps free publishing will also become a thing of the past.


That's a reasonable speculation. Perhaps it will last until Oct 16, 2019.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> That's a reasonable speculation. Perhaps it will last until Oct 16, 2019.


Is that when the world is coming to an end?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Wild Rivers said:


> Is that when the world is coming to an end?


No that is February 29, 2416.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> No that is February 29, 2416.


Thank God. Now I won't have to worry about it.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

I've stuck with select and am getting about 30 books borrowed a month which helps with the royalty cheques - does that seem worth it for exclusivity to you guys?


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> I've stuck with select and am getting about 30 books borrowed a month which helps with the royalty cheques - does that seem worth it for exclusivity to you guys?


That is about $60 plus dollars each month so is pretty good. However, it is hard to tell how much you would have made being on all of the other sites.

Getting off of Select is a gamble that you have to consider if it is worth it. When I got off of Select, it wasn't worth it for a few months. Then things improved so now I think I have made more than if I had stayed in Select. Not everyone has the same experience though.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Wild Rivers said:


> That is about $60 plus dollars each month so is pretty good. However, it is hard to tell how much you would have made being on all of the other sites.
> 
> Getting off of Select is a gamble that you have to consider if it is worth it. When I got off of Select, it wasn't worth it for a few months. Then things improved so now I think I have made more than if I had stayed in Select. Not everyone has the same experience though.


Interesting. I think I'll stay on it while it is doing Ok - maybe wait for book two to pick up then experiment a bit. Thanks.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I also think they're pretty good about listening to consumers. You are, even as an author, a sort of consumer -- at least of their book selling service -- so you could certainly courteously offer your insights and suggestions. Commenting here won't really do anything at Amazon, of course, though I'm sure this thread will generate conversation.


I can personally vouch for that Ann. I noticed after publishing my first large print edition, that it was almost impossible for a customer to find, even when looking for it by name. I contacted KDP help, and left a suggestion pointing out that their current system was a disservice to customers who needed/wanted large print. I politely explained the problem from a customers viewpoint, and then offered a possible solution. Within a week their system was updated, and now the paperbacks have the little plus box for other paperback editions, including the large print, making the book much easier to find.

However, besides the general thank you note for contacting customer service, I received no reply to the suggestion. Their actions spoke louder than words, as they not only listened, but reacted in a amazingly short time span when considering the usual corporate time lag.

They do listen to suggestions, whether they show it on the surface or not.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

How do you know that Amazon is being hurt by Free? You look at what they're doing to curb it of course. Changing algorhythms and introducing countdown etc. Isn't it obvious?

And as your accountants will tell you the costs aren't always in the actual dollars and cents you pay. There's a thing called opportunity cost, and another which is critically important to dealing with customers called discretionary spending.

Lets look at the opportunity costs. This is essentially the lost revenue that Amazon could have made by selling these books instead of giving them away. I don't know how many millions that is. Now the point about this is that it's a sort of loss leader - but not a good one. Loss leaders in supermarkets usually aren't free, and they are limited. But more importantly their purpose is to bring people into the store and buy more stuff. So Amazon's goal in giving away free books is to make more money by attracting more customers and selling more stuff. Are they doing as well in achieving this goal as they want? Obviously not. They aren't selling enough extra kindles and ebooks to cover the lost opportunity revenues.

The discretionary spending however is what hits us. The theory is that each customer has only so many dollars to spend, and they divide it into lets say categories like entertainment and shelter. Amazon wants to get as many of those discretionary dollars as it can. Pretty obvious really. Now as a writer who are you in competition with? Naturally everyone is going to say other writers. But that's only half the picture. You're also in competition with movies, games, and other entertainments. So customer Joe Blogs walks in says entertain me. He gets a whole lot of free books to read - more than he needs really. So how many more books is he going to purchase? Or is he going to go off and see a movie, rent a dvd or buy a video game?

Now this is a problem for us as writers. But its a major headache for Amazon as well. It wouln't be if they also showed movies, rented dvds or ran theme parks etc. But the reality is that they only have a certain number of types of entertainment products they sell. So if each customer digitally walks into their store, buys stuff for nothing and then wanders off to spend the rest of their still quite plump budget on things that Amazon doesn't sell, Amazon loses.

The classic economics example of this sort of lateral competition is actually airlines. Once upon a time they used to make a fortune selling tickets to passengers going to conferences or long distance commuting to work. That business dries up each year. The reason, airlines discovered they were in competition with telecommunications companies. Now you can teleconference, work from home etc. So why fly?

And in the same vein if you can get a book for free why not spend that extra money on another dvd rental? Why pay for another book when you have one, only have a certain amount of hours in a week anyway, and there are other things you can do?

Cheers, Greg.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

psychotick said:


> in the same vein if you can get a book for free why not spend that extra money on another dvd rental? Why pay for another book when you have one, only have a certain amount of hours in a week anyway, and there are other things you can do?
> 
> Cheers, Greg.


In answer to your question. YES I will buy another book or 6 or 8 or 10. Just in the last 20 days, I bought 10 books by authors I had previously found from picking up their freebies. My grand total in spending was 23 dollars. Ok you may say 20 dollars is not much, but what if 10 people did that... hmmmm now you have 200 dollars. 100 people that is 2000 dollars. 
And please do not ask how many books I have.
Amazon also has free apps and free MP3's. I have gotten both free apps and I have bought some apps.
On your dvd question, maybe because I prefer books to movies.
Oh we also bought a laptop battery from Amazon because we had an account and needed the battery.

So it is not an all free or all paid issue.
And if Amazon was losing money they would stop free altogether. What they probably do ''lose" money on is all the books that don't even get a sale.

On what Amazon makes off of digital, you cannot just count the digital purchases but everything in the store.
You are underestimating the consumer.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

And that's exactly the logic authors have been using for making some of their books free. But we aren't talking about individual customers or even individual authors. I'm glad that as a reader you've found free beneficial and that it has encouraged you to buy other books. But when looking at Amazon it's not about individuals. It's about agregates. And here we have to look at a few more questions.

Some customers like free and will buy more books as a result. But how many others won't? They'll simply pick up the freebie and then think well that wasn't as good as I thought, I'll get something else. And then before you can answer that question the next one is to compare it to how many of those who actually bought books - as in didn't take a freebie, will then go on to buy more books? My guess is that of those readers who actually did some browsing for books because there was a price to be paid for purchase, more will go on to become repeat customers? A lot of people simply pick up free books for no reason save that its free. Then they're not satisfied with their purchases and you get the bad reviews etc.

And then you touched on another good point. Amazon loses money on books that never sell. True enough. But then how many of those books then go on to become free because the author is desperate to "sell" something? And while we're at it, how many of those books did not sell because they were bad, and therefore discourage further readership?

I am not underestimating the consumer, I'm simply looking at them in the aggregate which is what Amazon which has millions of customers has to do.

And Amazon may or may not be losing money overall on free. But the fact that they are moving to curb it speaks volumes about the fact that it's costing them too much.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> And Amazon may or may not be losing money overall on free. But the fact that they are moving to curb it speaks volumes about the fact that it's costing them too much.


Can change happen for reasons other than cost?


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

Interesting discussion.

My only addition is that when I see this topic discussed on any forum I see the same misconception - that 1 book given away free = 1 lost sale.  This requires the belief that people are watching your book with their finger hovering over the "Buy It Now" button, just waiting for it to go free.  The overwhelming majority of free units given away are people actively searching for free books by scouring category lists or Top 100 Free charts on Amazon.  When one of these people gets my book for free, I am getting progress towards either a review or a listing on an 'also bought' section.

Also, I have seen the concept of 'opportunity cost' misappropriated in this thread also.  Opportunity cost refers to the cost of taking a particular course of action, in terms of the best alternative that you could have taken.  It does not refer to theoretical lost income due to your book being free for a period of time - that's called a 'marketing expense'.

So many people forget that without KDP Select, the vast majority of obscure, unknown authors would struggle to launch on Amazon.  This is the experiment I tried - create an unknown alias for your new book and launch it on Amazon without using free days.  Remember, it's an unknown alias so you can't use your existing social media base you may have built up.  When I did this, I got tumbleweeds rolling past my book for a couple of months before I gave in and put it up for free for 5 days.  Lo and behold when the free period finished I started selling copies and eventually got my book up to the level of sales my other books achieved.

KDP Select is a great piece of democratization for new authors.  So it kinda bugs me to see established authors demanding it gets closed.  If you don't want to use it, don't.

The more interesting aspect of this discussion is around the exclusivity requirements.  One thing I will say against KDP Select is that it makes me nervous to have all my eggs in one basket from a risk perspective.  The problem for me is that I tried Smashwords and LULU (and Kobo) and found them either unwieldy, dysfunctional or resulted in exactly zero sales (not to mention the borrows I lost in the meantime).  When a viable alternative to KDP comes out, I will be there with bells on.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

*How much does a 'free' download cost?*
Assuming you're going with the mos scum-suckingly over-priced hosting service that isn't literally a scam, bandwidth is $1/GB.

1GB = 1024MB
1MB = 1024kb

1GB = 1048576kb

1048576 kb = $1

Most ebooks I've seen weigh in at ~500kb

Therefore, in order to cost one dollar on the worst possible hosting, you would have to move 209715.2 free books.

And that's on the most unfavorable host possible, not, for example, a host who is also yourself.

Also, that 5 cent deliver fee they charge you? It would deliver 10485.76 books in the worst possible circumstance.

MATH!


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

It may be thirty years since I did economics but giving away books still comes with an opportunity cost. In this case the best alternative would be to sell them, so the choice made to give them away instead comes with that specific cost. The loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one particular alternative is chosen.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> The more interesting aspect of this discussion is around the exclusivity requirements. One thing I will say against KDP Select is that it makes me nervous to have all my eggs in one basket from a risk perspective. The problem for me is that I tried Smashwords and LULU (and Kobo) and found them either unwieldy, dysfunctional or resulted in exactly zero sales (not to mention the borrows I lost in the meantime). When a viable alternative to KDP comes out, I will be there with bells on.


There is a viable alternative to KDP and that is D2D. You could run all of your books through D2D since they also distribute to Amazon. However, since I was already using Amazon, I use D2D to distribute to Apple, Kobo, and B&N.

I am getting fond of D2D since I am making some good money from them this month. D2D is easier to use than KDP and has more information available to the author.


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Gretchen Galway said:


> Speaking as a customer, I don't like KLL at all.
> ...
> Perhaps I'm in the minority. How many Prime members use their book every month? (asking, not rhetorical.)


I don't. The last book I borrowed, I "had" for nine months, and I never actually read it. I got Prime for the shipping, way before I bought a Kindle. For me, as a customer, the thing that keeps me shopping with Amazon for books isn't the lending library or Select exclusivity or anything like that--it's the ease of access to my books. I can read them on my Kindle, on my Kindle Fire, on my husband's Galaxy tablet, on my Android phone... Whatever device I happen to have in my hand at the moment, I can read my book on it.

Heck, full disclosure? I don't even sideload my own books onto my devices. I get Kindle-compatible versions from our publisher, and of course I have them for our self-pubbed stuff, but if I need them on my Kindle for reference? I buy them. It's just *easier*.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> The last book I borrowed, I "had" for nine months, and I never actually read it. I got Prime for the shipping, way before I bought a Kindle.


When I bought my Kindle Fire HD, I got a month's free Prime. I had a hard time finding a book that I actually wanted to borrow. Most of the books I wanted were not under Select since so many of the good writers have moved on.

I doubt that many Prime customers would even miss the free borrow each month.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

psychotick said:


> The discretionary spending however is what hits us. The theory is that each customer has only so many dollars to spend, and they divide it into lets say categories like entertainment and shelter...He gets a whole lot of free books to read - more than he needs really. So how many more books is he going to purchase? Or is he going to go off and see a movie, rent a dvd or buy a video game?


Do you have any evidence to support this theory? Do you have any idea, in real numbers, how many paid sales have been lost to free books?


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

psychotick said:


> giving away books still comes with an opportunity cost. In this case the best alternative would be to sell them, so the choice made to give them away instead comes with that specific cost. The loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one particular alternative is chosen.


What if the potential gain was virtually $0? Or to put another way, in many or even most cases, the books given away through Select would never have sold at all. So this theoretical opportunity cost is nil.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

psychotick said:


> Amazon's goal in giving away free books is to make more money by attracting more customers and selling more stuff. Are they doing as well in achieving this goal as they want? Obviously not. They aren't selling enough extra kindles and ebooks to cover the lost opportunity revenues.


Do you have any evidence to support this claim?


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I am not sure that giving away books is important any longer.  Readers seem to have become more careful about downloading books since their reading time is limited. It is more important to download something to enjoy than saving a small amount of money.

I haven't given any books away for over six months but my sales continue to climb.  Perhaps the real key is write books that people want to read.


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## Harriet Schultz (Jan 3, 2012)

Gretchen Galway said:


> I have Prime, but have borrowed a book once. At first I kept "saving" my freebie, but then I got fed up with how random the assortment was, and how difficult to search, I moved on to a public library with a great ebook selection.
> 
> Perhaps I'm in the minority. How many Prime members use their book every month? (asking, not rhetorical.)


A free one-month Prime membership was included with my Kindle Fire. There were a few books on my "want to read" list, but not one was part of KLL. I never joined Prime and my books have never been in Select.


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## Dan Fiorella (Oct 14, 2012)

Wild Rivers said:


> What bothers me is that Amazon will realize that they can charge us to publish our books.
> Perhaps free publishing will also become a thing of the past.


Really? That's where you think Amazon's future lies? In vanity publishing?


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

What is the opportunity cost of choosing to charge a price for a book instead of giving it away for free? Anyone have any real numbers?

The experiment can't be done. The best we have is is anecdotal evidence that a method works more often than it doesn't.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Dan Fiorella said:


> Really? That's where you think Amazon's future lies? In vanity publishing?


Hopefully not.
I do wonder, though, that if they were to charge $50 or whatever per title, it would discourage some of the scammers and get-rich-quick crowd from posting sub-par or stolen material.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Quiss said:


> Hopefully not.
> I do wonder, though, that if they were to charge $50 or whatever per title, it would discourage some of the scammers and get-rich-quick crowd from posting sub-par or stolen material.


No, actually the other thing would happen.

Scammers would be all about that. You have to remember that they largely propped up the vanity publishing industry in its heyday, publishing bogus self-help and financial scheme books, and stolen Literotica stuff is even _more_ profitable.

Meanwhile, good honest people who can't drop that kind of cash on a gamble that their book will make more than that (hi!) will be shunted out of the market, reducing the competition for scammers until Kindle Books looks like your spam inbox.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> *How much does a 'free' download cost?*
> Assuming you're going with the mos scum-suckingly over-priced hosting service that isn't literally a scam, bandwidth is $1/GB.
> 
> 1GB = 1024MB
> ...


Thank you for this. My figure for the cost of hosting a book was like way high. Much appreciated.


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## Dan Fiorella (Oct 14, 2012)

Quiss said:


> Hopefully not.
> I do wonder, though, that if they were to charge $50 or whatever per title, it would discourage some of the scammers and get-rich-quick crowd from posting sub-par or stolen material.


You pay someone to publish your work, that's vanity publishing. Amazon, like any other publisher, is a partner. You make money, they make money. They give us some leeway on give-aways to bring people to Kindle (not neccesarly us). If they decide independent publishing isn't doing it anymore, they would more likely follow the traditional publishing template (which they are doing with their own imprints). Any other way will simply destroy any goodwill that's been developed between them and their customers.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Dan Fiorella said:


> You pay someone to publish your work, that's vanity publishing. Amazon, like any other publisher, is a partner. You make money, they make money. They give us some leeway on give-aways to bring people to Kindle (not neccesarly us). If they decide independent publishing isn't doing it anymore, they would more likely follow the traditional publishing template (which they are doing with their own imprints). Any other way will simply destroy any goodwill that's been developed between them and their customers.


Who would remove their book from KDP if Amazon charged $50 per book per year?

KDP authors are suppliers to Amazon, not partners. Amazon books all the revenue. Amazon pays all the costs.

Consumers don't care how Amazon gets its books. Not sure how that would affect goodwill Amazon has built.

Truth in posting: I would pay the $50. Who else? Who would refuse?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Who would remove their book from KDP if Amazon charged $50 per book per year?
> 
> KDP authors are suppliers to Amazon, not partners. Amazon books all the revenue. Amazon pays all the costs.
> 
> ...


Hey Terrence,
Depending on how many books you sell, you may already be paying them more than $50 a year to host your book.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Who would remove their book from KDP if Amazon charged $50 per book per year?
> 
> KDP authors are suppliers to Amazon, not partners. Amazon books all the revenue. Amazon pays all the costs.
> 
> ...


You have only one book, Terrence, so 50 USD per year may not look like a big deal. However, there are lots of people here who have ten, twenty, fifty or even a hundred books. For them, 50 USD for every book would become very pricey indeed.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

According to the Remittance Advice emails and Tax information, we are actually 'Vendors', which means they should technically be paying us to stock our items in their store for a higher price than what they paid us.

Since it's books, they're welcome to rip the covers off all unsold inventory and send it back to us for a refund.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

CoraBuhlert said:


> You have only one book, Terrence, so 50 USD per year may not look like a big deal. However, there are lots of people here who have ten, twenty, fifty or even a hundred books. For them, 50 USD for every book would become very pricey indeed.


I agree, but my existence doesn't affect the issue. And more books also means more sources of revenue. So who would pay the $50 per year per book? Who would pull their books from Amazon? Wid Rivers observation is well worth considering. Who would become vanity publisher by paying?

I would.



Vaalingrade said:


> According to the Remittance Advice emails and Tax information, we are actually 'Vendors', which means they should technically be paying us to stock our items in their store for a higher price than what they paid us.
> 
> Since it's books, they're welcome to rip the covers off all unsold inventory and send it back to us for a refund.


We are vendors. We supply Amazon. Then Amazon sells to the consumer. Authors have no commercial relationship with the consumer. The contract says Amazon can set retail price anywhere it wants at its own discretion. Authors have no control.

Technically, they should comply with the contract. They do.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Wild Rivers said:


> While I was getting a haircut this morning at a real barber shop, I got to thinking. We all assume that Amazon loves Select and lays awake at night worrying about those that leave it.
> 
> However, maybe Amazon doesn't care and would love to get rid of Select. It is costing them a lot of money each month for borrows.
> 
> ...


I don't know why you assume Amazon doesn't make money off free books. They certainly do in my case. It happens like this: I see a bunch of interesting free books, and I download them because there's no cost impediment to trying them out. I glance at them and discover that most of them are things I don't like well enough to read though, but then I hit one I really like. I read it and then promptly go and buy all the other books in the series.

If not for Select, I would never have found that series and never spent that money. I would've spent all those hours doing something else besides reading. I don't budget exactly ten hours per week for reading and fill those hours with either paid or free books, according to what's available. Instead, I read addictively. When I chance something I want to read, I drop everything and read it.

So, at least in my case, the idea that Amazon makes no money from Select is quite wrong. The company effectively tempts me into reading more than I otherwise would by dangling free "gateway books" in front of me. I doubt I'm the only customer who reads impulsively and can be tempted into allotting more time to reading than I really should.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Amazon also makes money off free books because some people will pay for something else while on the site. This is why affiliate sites did so well before the rule changes in their disfavor. It still works for them, but to a lesser degree; it still works just as well for Amazon. Remember, every time they can get you to their site is another opportunity you'll spend money there.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> We are vendors. We supply Amazon. Then Amazon sells to the consumer. Authors have no commercial relationship with the consumer. The contract says Amazon can set retail price anywhere it wants at its own discretion. Authors have no control.
> 
> Technically, they should comply with the contract. They do.


Point being, if they actually treated us like vendors and contracted with us like vendors, that's how it would play out.

Thing is though, an actual vendor is a _business partner_ with the retailer and Amazon doens't treat us that way; they treat us like we're buying a service from them, which is utter BS.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> I don't know why you assume Amazon doesn't make money off free books. They certainly do in my case. It happens like this: I see a bunch of interesting free books, and I download them because there's no cost impediment to trying them out. I glance at them and discover that most of them are things I don't like well enough to read though, but then I hit one I really like. I read it and then promptly go and buy all the other books in the series.
> 
> If not for Select, I would never have found that series and never spent that money. I would've spent all those hours doing something else besides reading. I don't budget exactly ten hours per week for reading and fill those hours with either paid or free books, according to what's available. Instead, I read addictively. When I chance something I want to read, I drop everything and read it.
> 
> So, at least in my case, the idea that Amazon makes no money from Select is quite wrong. The company effectively tempts me into reading more than I otherwise would by dangling free "gateway books" in front of me. I doubt I'm the only customer who reads impulsively and can be tempted into allotting more time to reading than I really should.


Hello my long lost twin.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> Point being, if they actually treated us like vendors and contracted with us like vendors, that's how it would play out.
> 
> Thing is though, an actual vendor is a _business partner_ with the retailer and Amazon doens't treat us that way; they treat us like we're buying a service from them, which is utter BS.


They treat us according to the contract we execute. The terms are available for a few clicks. Vendors are not partners. Vendors supply stuff to retailers. Vendors also sell stuff to consumers. We are the kind that supplies to a retailer.

Vendors can become partners, but our contract doesn't do that.

They don't treat us like we are buying a service because we don't pay them anything. They treat us like suppliers. Thats what we are. We supply stuff, and they sell it.

There are all kinds of ways a different contract could be structured. It could encompass a zillion things. Nobody cares what could be. All that matters is how it actually is.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Hello my long lost twin.


LOL!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> I don't know why you assume Amazon doesn't make money off free books. They certainly do in my case. It happens like this: I see a bunch of interesting free books, and I download them because there's no cost impediment to trying them out. I glance at them and discover that most of them are things I don't like well enough to read though, but then I hit one I really like. I read it and then promptly go and buy all the other books in the series.


Markets promote, enable, and encourage trade. What you have described is a perfect example of a healthy market operation.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi Guys,

Adam, sorry to take so long to respond. Been busy. However to answer you question, no one has any of this evidence save Amazon and they aren't sharing. However if you look at market trends you can see the picture.

They're cutting back on discounts on some books, presumably because there is no competition for them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/business/as-competition-wanes-amazon-cuts-back-its-discounts.html?_r=0

They've knocked back affiliate programs that promote too many free ebooks compared to paid ones.
http://www.lindsayburoker.com/amazon-kindle-sales/book-promotion-whats-working-at-amazon/

A number of authors are reporting even on their own site that Amazon isn't price matching to free.
https://kdp.amazon.co.jp/community/thread.jspa?messageID=561089

They've been changing the algorhythms so that "sales" of freebies don't count towards rankings as they used to - last year.
http://www.lindsayburoker.com/amazon-kindle-sales/recent-amazon-algorithm-changes/
http://www.edwardwrobertson.com/2012/05/amazons-ever-changing-algorithms-part-2.html

They've just introduced Countdown (no reference needed) which shows a clear enticement to authors to instead of reducing books to nada for five days to discount it instead for seven days with some promotion. You can have one or the other but not both.

And before you ask for numbers which none of us have, ask yourself this. If Amazon was making a fortune with free would they be making these changes?

Cheers, Greg.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Markets promote, enable, and encourage trade. What you have described is a perfect example of a healthy market operation.


No doubt. Amazon isn't taking over the world by being a bunch of morons.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Adam, sorry to take so long to respond. Been busy. However to answer you question, no one has any of this evidence save Amazon and they aren't sharing. However if you look at market trends you can see the picture.
> 
> They're cutting back on discounts on some books, presumably because there is no competition for them.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/business/as-competition-wanes-amazon-cuts-back-its-discounts.html?_r=0
> ...


This sounds like a good trend to me since Amazon is reducing free books. I wonder if that has anything to do with my increased sales this month?


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

psychotick said:


> Adam, sorry to take so long to respond. Been busy. However to answer you question, no one has any of this evidence save Amazon and they aren't sharing. However if you look at market trends you can see the picture.


Greg,

Those examples are all good and fine, but you are missing a very important piece of the puzzle and that's just how well free worked when Select was first rolled out. It worked ridiculously well for those who paid attention and worked the system. When my crime novel is bumping Elmore Leonard and Michael Connolly down the *paid* charts due to a Pixel of Ink mention and a post free bump, something's gotta give. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm not as popular as Michael Connolly, and even dead Leonard's dialogue has more life than mine.

Something had to be done. Amazon made some tweaks and they'll continue to tweak. That is hardly conclusive proof to any of the theories bandied about in this thread.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Something had to be done. Amazon made some tweaks and they'll continue to tweak. That is hardly conclusive proof to any of the theories bandied about in this thread.


I agree with Greg since the points he made does makes sense.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Wild Rivers said:


> I wonder if that has anything to do with my increased sales this month?


According to the November sales thread, the overall trend (among those who self-report) is that sales this month are down. Those seem to be authors who weren't already in the top of their genres, from what I can see. Something's up at Amazon, I'm sure of it.

Of course, there is no apples-to-apples comparison, which is why any such self-reporting is really just chatter. You can't compare a 99-cent porn short with a 300-page spy thriller. Different audience, different consumption rate, different price range etc etc etc

Would be very cool to have numbers, genre by genre, month by month.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> According to the November sales thread, the overall trend (among those who self-report) is that sales this month are down.


That seems strange; I wonder if that thread could be wrong?

However, I did publish two new novels recently and that may have helped. The books that sold were mainly my higher priced books. I write in lots of genres but I got sales across a lot of my different genres. My sales in both Amazon and D2D did well and are still selling so this should be a very good month for me.


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