# Managing the tone in Writer's Cafe



## KBoards Admin

We are concerned about a growing lack of civility in posts in the Writer's Cafe. We want to remind everyone about our rules of decorum. These are the rules of the house and will be enforced.

When necessary we will impose bans on members. Here's how that works:

a. We first give a warning to the member via PM
b. If the behavior recurs, we invoke a temporary ban
c. If the behavior recurs after that, we invoke a permanent ban. Please note that, in our five years of operations, we have never lifted a permanent ban once it has been invoked, despite repeated appeals from banned authors. Once you get that third strike, you're out.

We are doing this partly to reduce our moderation load, and partly to preserve (or reinstate) the tone of productive, civil conversations in our Writer's Cafe.

Note: Some of the reasons for the bans will include not only personal attacks, but also situations where a member tends to pick apart other people's posts. That is not conducive to rich conversation. To those members: you may indeed be the smartest person in the room, but if you feel you have to prove that by continually parsing out and contradicting other people's posts, you are not enriching the conversation.

I admit some of this comes down to a judgment call, and while you may not always agree with our moderation actions, we ask that you respect the decisions that our moderators make. It takes a tremendous amount of care and effort to support a community like this, especially one that has grown to become the web's largest independent Kindle forum. The moderator role is a difficult one and is purely voluntary; do your part to make their lives a slight bit easier.

If you don't agree with the above, there are plenty of unmoderated forums out there, that allow or even welcome confrontation and belligerence. KBoards is not that kind of place.

Let me end this on a heartfelt positive note: We love this place! And we hope you do too. We appreciate our community! We want to keep the KB Writer's Cafe an enjoyable and useful place for you and for all writers.

Thank you for your understanding and support. I look forward to many enjoyable conversations to come in the Writer's Cafe!

-Harvey


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## Kay Bratt

I love this place, too. And appreciate all you and the mods do. I know it's not always easy to make that judgement call.

You all do a great job.


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## Quiss

vrabinec made me do it...

*bump*


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## Midnight Writer

Harvey said:


> The moderator role is a difficult one...


It sure is! A huge Thank You to all the mods.


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## Mathew Reuther

For full disclosure, not that it will shock or amaze anyone, but I'm on my last step, having already been banned for a week once.

That said, I think that as I am in that position, it's absolutely worth commenting.

I think a bit too much worry is invested at times in some posts by some board members and the moderation staff. If you think of a post as a discussion in a salon at some event or the other: a group of people are engaging in chatter, and eventually in the middle of the discourse, a few people get more heated. (Happens at social gatherings of all kinds, in relation to all kinds of topics from sports to politics to cars to you-name-it.)

Now, if you were to (as host) break this up and send everyone to their corners and prohibit speaking of such things again in the near future, it wouldn't allow people to resolve things. And that's precisely what happens when you lock down a thread. You remove the ability of the (presumably) adult human beings involved to follow through with a line of discussion until its conclusion.

You rob them of the ability to come to their own kind of consensus, and to find middle ground. Middle ground we are all taught to at least try and seek. (And which, judging from my PM box after locked threads, absolutely exists.)

I certainly don't disagree that some issues need to be cut short. No doubt about it. But I mentioned to Harvey the other evening that I felt he was perhaps being needlessly pessimistic about a specific thread. (Though I freely admit to understanding that he's concerned with the whole.) A thread which was allowed to remain in play, and which did indeed result in discussion which then cooled and naturally ended. These are the types of discussions I am referring to when I say that some would be better left alone so that they could run their course and reach a natural conclusion.

I think it might lower tensions overall if some things were just left to the folks in the WC to deal with themselves. Of course, in order to know this for sure, we'd have to see some threads which were heated not get shuttered, and that's a tough call to make, as I'm sure we all understand. I'm fairly sure nobody here thinks that Harvey, Betsy, and Ann have it easy in that regard.

***

Now, outside of my own thoughts regarding the fact that I trust most of us in most situations to eventually come around to some kind of an understanding, there's one other specific statement which concerns me here.

That's the fact that "picking apart posts" is the way I have posted since USENET. Since dialup BBSes. For two decades. And as I have said to Harvey in private, I do this for clarity. So that it is possible to see exactly what I am referring to for myself while I am responding, and for others when they read. I certainly don't break a post down and reply to specific elements to insult anyone.

So despite my intentions: my established, decades long posting style, is unacceptable.

That pretty much sucks rocks. *shrug*


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## EC Sheedy

Glad of the gentle reminder. This is a great board! 

Thanks to you, Harvey, and our illustrious moderators for keeping it great.


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## JeanneM

Mathew, can you change your ways in this case?   This place wouldn't be as much fun without you.


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## Caddy

Matthew, I could be wrong, but I don't think Harvey is referring to when you post part of a post as a quote as "picking apart".  I "think" (and I could be wrong) that he means picking apart as in taking what someone posts and hammering on a certain thing they said over and over to make a point, and breaking it down to mean something other than the OP had intended. 

For example, you may say, "We all know that nonfiction is a harder sell". (Don't think I"m saying that, I just made up a sentence.)  Now, If I quote that from your full post and then comment, that's fair.

If I quote it and by doing so make it out of context and then go to so provoke you by saying, "How do you know what everyyone thinks? You said "we all know". Do you really think you know what I know or don't know? And, for that matter, what research have you done to prove this about nonfiction? If you can't provide us with solid facts with the research to back it, I find your statement misleading and troublesome." THAT is picking apart. Then they come back and say, "You know I was generalizing. Doesn't everyone say 'everyone' at times?" Then you (not YOU, but anyone who does this, comes back again and says, "There you go again with the 'everyone'." It's intentional twisting of statements that I think he hopes to avoid.

At least, that's how I'm reading what Harvey says.


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## Gone 9/21/18

The reason KB has long been my most favoritist place is what I see as gentle but necessary moderation. There are vigorous discussions here, but knowing they can't degenerate into ugliness is great. Thank you, Harvey, Betsy, and Ann.


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## EC Sheedy

Yeah... Hang around, Matthew. When something/someone rankles you, spin around three times and spit. It takes the edge off. 

I enjoy your posts!


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## KBoards Admin

Caddy said:


> ...
> For example, you may say, "We all know that nonfiction is a harder sell". (Don't think I"m saying that, I just made up a sentence.) Now, If I quote that from your full post and then comment, that's fair.
> 
> If I quote it and by doing so make it out of context and then go to so provoke you by saying, "How do you know what everyyone thinks? You said "we all know". Do you really think you know what I know or don't know? And, for that matter, what research have you done to prove this about nonfiction? If you can't provide us with solid facts with the research to back it, I find your statement misleading and troublesome." THAT is picking apart. Then they come back and say, "You know I was generalizing. Doesn't everyone say 'everyone' at times?" Then you (not YOU, but anyone who does this, comes back again and says, "There you go again with the 'everyone'." It's intentional twisting of statements that I think he hopes to avoid.


It's a pretty good example that Caddy gives. And even if the statements are not twisted, a hammering on approach just provokes the original poster and discourages others on the sidelines from contributing to conversations. I've seen this happen over our five years of support for this board... and when the 'provoking' poster is removed, suddenly other interesting voices come forward simply because the board has a more welcoming / congenial feel to it.

xkcd says it best:


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## bmcox

Mathew Reuther said:


> That pretty much sucks rocks. *shrug*


Geophagy aside, I hear your frustration as it was mine all during grad school. We're writers and many of us are cursed with the passion to argue our positions. That being said, I would really like you to stay, who else is reading my stuff.  Besides, we'd all miss you.


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## dalya

A very smart friend of mine said that if someone goes after you, the rule is to respond once to clarify your point, in case something was unclear.

Beyond that, you're just dealing with someone who has too much time on their hands and teeny tiny underpants. Why pick a battle with someone like that?

ETA: I try to follow this advice, but the flesh is weak.


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## Betsy the Quilter

I'll point out that this is the Internet.  And the safety of not being punched in the nose allows people to say things I don't believe many of them would say face-to-face.  At least, not as strongly, not as repeatedly, and not within arm's length.  

I've been a moderator here for five years.  I think we have a feel for when strong feelings can come around and be resolved between members and when they can't, which is why some threads that get heated stay open and why some don't.  There's nothing wrong with strong feelings and disagreement, but when a thread deteriorates to personal comments, that goes against forum decorum.

I'm the one who gets messages from long time valued members who say that the tone of the Writers' Café is one of the reasons they don't post much here anymore.  And honestly, folks, it seems like this week, every thread has blown up.  I know that's not true...but it's felt that way.  It's not the way we want the Café to feel.

Banning someone here is a painful process for all of us on the admin staff.  I can honestly say that I've liked every one of the handful of people who've been banned for cause here on KBoards. You may hear differently elsewhere, but it's true.  (Spammers excluded.)  We have long discussions in the smoke-filled admin caves before the decision is made.  It's not done arbitrarily or capriciously.  It's not done because we don't like the member.  It's done because the member is being seriously disruptive of the atmosphere here on KBoards and, despite our best attempts, refuses to change.  

This is a large, vital, sometimes unruly community.  Y'all get a tremendous amount of information and social interaction here for free.  All we ask is that you (generic "you") follow our rules and try to adapt to our culture, which, like our rules, has developed over time to be what it is today.

Lastly, personal attacks on members in this thread will not be allowed and will be removed, no matter how witty the member posting thinks they are.  This thread is NOT about individual members.

Betsy


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## Carol (was Dara)

Thank you for the reminder, Harvey and Betsy. I think it's worth remembering that non-confrontational members would sometimes like to weigh in on a thread but are scared away from commenting when the thread devolves into a heated back and forth between only two or three people who've already stated their opinions several times. We don't hear much about this because when the atmosphere becomes negative people simply leave the boards or go into silent lurk mode. I want to thank the mods for the work they do and apologize if I've ever added to their load. I've belonged to forums that were unmoderated or poorly moderated and they were very unhappy places to be, unless you were one of the vocal dominant minority.


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## David Adams

Dalya said:


> A very smart friend of mine said that if someone goes after you, the rule is to respond once to clarify your point, in case something was unclear.
> 
> Beyond that, you're just dealing with someone who has too much time on their hands and teeny tiny underpants. Why pick a battle with someone like that?
> 
> ETA: I try to follow this advice, but the flesh is weak.


Well, you could always make them a bad guy in your next book.


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## Steph H

I'm one of a group of administrators/moderators for a completely unrelated hobby forum with a similar large and "top of our class" size, and we do things much like Betsy says it's done here. Moderating isn't done on a whim or in a vacuum, but after careful (and often prolonged) discussion and thought, with as little disruption to the flow of the forums as possible. Regular members would be surprised at what all goes on behind the scenes to keep things running smoothly there, and I'm sure it's the same here.

That said, our head admin there, the equivalent of Harvey here, uses a word/phrase I always try to remember wherever I go, both on the Internet and in real life -- shutupedness.  It's hard to practice shutupedness, but it's sometimes the best thing I can do rather than jump in the middle of something that will just fuel the flames...


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## Betsy the Quilter

I like "shutupedness," Steph.  I have a phrase I use that has stood me well through the years both in the traditional workplace and on the Internet.  "How would I respond to this if I actually liked the person?"  (Or wasn't really annoyed at them.)  It's amazing how more someone will take from a friend than a non-friend.

Betsy


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## vrabinec

Quiss said:


> vrabinec made me do it...
> 
> *bump*


Listen, w*nch...

_New word added to filters. ;-) --Betsy_


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## Becca Mills

Living within KB's rules is good practice. It teaches me self-control.

But can't we have No-Filter Fridays, or something? I'd really like to be able to call someone a fucking asshole every so often.


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## jimkukral

Good for you! You're running a business here. And free to boot. Play by YOUR rules or don't play. 

Not sure where some people get off thinking they have "rights" to act however they want. You didn't pay to be here, and even if you did, you play by the owner's rules, or not. Their decision, not yours.


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## bmcox

Steph H said:


> shutupedness. It's hard to practice shutupedness, but it's sometimes the best thing I can do rather than jump in the middle of something that will just fuel the flames...


Love that phrase. And indeed it is hard to practice.


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## Betsy the Quilter

Becca Mills said:


> Living within KB's rules is good practice. It teaches me self-control.
> 
> But can't we have No-Filter Fridays, or something? I'd really like to be able to call someone a [expletive] [expletive] every so often.


Nothing stopping you from calling someone a [expletive], Becca....they just can't read what you called them. 

Betsy


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## Nick Endi Webb

Betsy, Harvey, et al., 
I love what you guys do here. I've never participated in an internet forum until KB because I've never found one with the tone, the atmosphere, and the friendliness that you guys have fostered here. And durn it all if it's not bursting at the seams with incredibly smart, capable people too.

Thanks


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## Steve Silkin

Betsy the Quilter said:


> And honestly, folks, it seems like this week, every thread has blown up.


I've been too busy to visit the cafe recently. And now I find out I missed all the excitement! 

Oh, maybe not ...


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## BJ Whittington

Tone is so difficult in forums or even email. Amazing, that as writers we forget to focus our words to evoke certain reactions when online. IF we have honed our craft, we do it in our WIP’s. 

I am guilty of “tone” issues often online. I tend to be rather abrupt in conversation in forums and email, so sometime come across as less then polite (or so I have been told). NOT my intention at all, but there you have it. As adults, I think we need to focus on communication and less on tone when reading other’s posts, as tone can be what we INFER and not what they intended. 

LOL and the opposite is true, we need to strive to communicate without any “tone” that can be misconstrued. Sigh, not a real relaxing means of communication.


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## Becca Mills

Betsy the Quilter said:


> ....they just can't read what you called them.


You have put your finger on the problem, Betsy.


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## Maggie Dana

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I like "shutupedness," Steph. I have a phrase I use that has stood me well through the years both in the traditional workplace and on the Internet. "How would I respond to this if I actually liked the person?" (Or wasn't really annoyed at them.) It's amazing how more someone will take from a friend than a non-friend.
> 
> Betsy


Please, someone tell me how to pronounce shutupedness.

Shut-upt-ness, which would be my British ears' first choice ...

OR

Shut-upness

OR perhaps

Shut-up-ED-ness

The variations are endless, thanks to our marvelous language, which leads me to wonder about the equivalent in French, German, or Spanish ... and others.


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## JRTomlin

I don't think I'm alone in having had a hard time learning to just walk away from an argument--that shutupedness someone mentioned.  I do try to remember that having made my point--sometimes a point that infuriates people--there is no real reason to repeat it, especially five or six times. It's darn hard though when someone comes back with a response to shrug it off and let it go. However, it is a skill that I work on acquiring.

Amazingly enough, to the best of my memory I've never received a warning. Go figure.   

ETA: And I admit to having hot-button issues. I have absolutely no doubt every time two particular issues come up that Betsy holds her head and moans (and then gets out her taser) knowing exactly how I will respond. Mostly I'll change but... well, yeah. Anyway, I think Mathew would be a loss to the board and hope he does take care in his posting and anyone else teetering on the edge. It was a good reminder from Harvey.


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## Betsy the Quilter

JRTomlin said:


> I don't think I'm alone in having had a hard time learning to just walk away from an argument--that shutupedness someone mentioned. I do try to remember that having made my point--sometimes a point that infuriates people--there is no real reason to repeat it, especially five or six times. It's darn hard though when someone comes back with a response to shrug it off and let it go. However, it is a skill that I work on acquiring.
> 
> Amazingly enough, to the best of my memory I've never received a warning. Go figure.


No, but to my recollection, you have received a LOT of stern looks, JRT. Like this:  


Betsy


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## JRTomlin

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No, but to my recollection, you have received a LOT of stern looks, JRT. Like this:
> 
> 
> Betsy


I know. 

Read my edit.


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## Janet Michelson

JeanneM said:


> Mathew, can you change your ways in this case?  This place wouldn't be as much fun without you.


This. I don't always agree with you, but I enjoy the lively conversation. Behave!


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## dalya

I think calling people sweetheart/sweetie when you are not making love to them, or of grandparent age, is bad.


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## vrabinec

JRTomlin said:


> However, it is a skill that I work on acquiring.


Uh huh, work harder. I have it on good word that Harvey put this up just for YOU.


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## Joel R. Crabtree

Lurking solves so many communication problems.  

I would like to thank the moderators and forum participants for the host of great information, the many laughs and smiles, and the moments of intensely pouring over the discussions here that occur on a daily basis, especially in the WC.


In all honesty though, much as this thread denotes, when a discussion turns into a debate, I generally tune out. No offense to anyone, debate is a strong part of life. It's just hard to accomplish fairly through most internet areas. And it does effect tone quite a bit.


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## Patty Jansen

I am the QUEEN of walking away from arguments.

After a certain point, anything you say will just hand the other party another shovel to dig you a bigger hole.

I also skip over people's long and elaborate posts. I don't have time to read them, let alone time to write them.

You disagree? Say it once and move on.


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## Janet Michelson

Dalya said:


> I think calling people sweetheart/sweetie when you are not making love to them, or of grandparent age, is bad.


Do I have to old enough to be YOUR grandparent, or will being a grandparent at large suffice?


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## Caddy

> Amazingly enough, to the best of my memory I've never received a warning. Go figure. Tongue


Oh, yeah? Well, then let me warn ya. I don't know what I'm warning you about, but no one should go through life without ever being warned about something.


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## Patty Jansen

Someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet-ness messes with my head and productivity.

Better not to care that they are wrong (BECAUSE THEY ARE!), shut down the KB tab, and write.


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## Geoffrey

Maggie Dana said:


> The variations are endless, thanks to our marvelous language, which leads me to wonder about the equivalent in French, German, or Spanish ... and others.


French: tais-toi-ment?


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## Guest

...I'm well behaved right? I don't get into many heated arguments...


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## Michael_J_Sullivan

This has been, and I'm sure will continue to be one of THE most supportive places for writers.  Look at places like Absolute Water Cooler who bans people like Hugh Howey (and anyone who dares mention that self-publishing might be an alternative) and you'll know just how special a place it is.

Keep it up guys...it's a special place and I'm glad it's here.


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## L.M. Pfalz

Patty Jansen said:


> Someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet-ness messes with my head and productivity.
> 
> Better not to care that they are wrong (BECAUSE THEY ARE!), shut down the KB tab, and write.


Sound advice.

Must...follow...it...


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## Guest

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Look at places like Absolute Water Cooler who bans people like Hugh Howey


They banned ME! How dare they ban me for arguing that impossibly strong tall tale/Beowulf-style heroines in a nonmagical setting would constitute fantasy! 

(Although my stories have magic, it was a theoretical argument that got out of hand)


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## Diane Patterson

Is anyone else pronouncing it "Shtuppedness"? No? 

My general rule of thumb with conversations is that if an email convo goes on for 5 back and forths or a bboard topic goes on for more than 3 pages, everything that's going to be said has been said. (Unless it's something like the "Report your feedback with free" or whatever -- but even then, it's hard to find your last place in the conversation.) It's still hard to damp down the "I must get my last words in here!" feeling though.

Another general rule: whenever someone's reply starts with "Um," I needn't read any more. 

I will say that I've found KB to be one of the most informative and supportive places for writers on the net, and I hope it continues to be so.


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## Andykay

Dalya said:


> I think calling people sweetheart/sweetie when you are not making love to them, or of grandparent age, is bad.


Shalll we take this back to the 'lady' thread? 

I'm a fan of discussions that get a little out of hand, but I can appreciate they're not particularly conducive to a friendly environment. I just enjoy a good debate and try to remain fairly level headed about it, but depending on the topic, I know it can hit some sore spots for certain people. I think the 'lady' thread was my first stern look from Betsy =/ But no warnings thankfully.

In any case, it can't be easy moderating a bunch of verbose, quasi-intellectual's with a penchant for procrastination, so kudos for putting up with it all.


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## kCopeseeley

I used to post here all the time, but I'll be honest... it got to me after a while.

I left altogether and just recently made my way back to lurking.


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## Not Here

During the busy months, I don't get to post as much. But on the whole, others tend to have already said what I was thinking. Otherwise I type up what I really want to say and then delete it. Don't have the time to fight over silly stuff and even if I did, I already get enough of that from the child.  

Although I have to admit, locked threads are my version of soaps.


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## Monique

There's a lot I love about the WC, but lately there's too much that makes me want to tear out my hair, set fire to it, rub the ashes on my face and run off into the woods.


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## Lisa Grace

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No, but to my recollection, you have received a LOT of stern looks, JRT. Like this:
> 
> 
> Betsy


Thanks Harvey, Ann & Betsy. You do a great job which is why this place is ever growing.

I love the new smiley's and think they really get points across well. Like the stern look one 

But I can't see myself using this one 

And Mathew, I want you to stick around, too. I think those who respond in threads add value to the discussions (for the most part), and we all have bad PMS moments.


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## ToniD

I see the mods' rules & regs as fostering respect.

Respect can handle all manner of disagreements and opposing points of view and save one from the cattle prod.


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## Patty Jansen

The only prods I ever get are about the length, shape or otherwise of my sig file.

I am tragically boring.


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## CaedemMarquez

Ach. I come back after an absence and Uncle Harvey is laying the smackdown.  

On the fun side, I just scolded some neighborhood kids wilt Harvey was scolding us authors. I wonder if the kids or the authors will lesrn first!


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## Anotherdreamer

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'll point out that this is the Internet. And the safety of not being punched in the nose allows people to say things I don't believe many of them would say face-to-face. At least, not as strongly, not as repeatedly, and not within arm's length.


Exactly! Even if its not pleasant, I can at least respect a person that has the nerve to get nasty to my face.


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## vrabinec

vrabinec said:


> Listen, w*nch...
> 
> _New word added to filters. ;-) --Betsy_


Heh, I'm a writer. I've got a million where that one came from. And Quiss knows she's on my hit list.


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## CaedemMarquez

Dalya said:


> I think calling people sweetheart/sweetie when you are not making love to them, or of grandparent age, is bad.


But what if you want to. ..u know. .. erm... haaaave ... a good time but they don't know it? Wouldn't that be a good way to let them know? Ha jk


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## Gennita Low

The thing about Internet arguments is, if you've been around long enough, you've heard it all before. I sometimes feel very old when I read an ongoing flameout (not necc. here at KB) because, heck, didn't that happen in 1999 at that other site? With some of the same people? Heh.

But yeah, procrastination = wine, reading KB long threads and checking sales. Sigh.

Thank you, moderators. You really do an excellent job. KB is one of the nicest places to hang out and I've hung out at many, many sites where the owners encourage flameouts to get traffic. I feel good here and have found old (waving at Anne and Liliana) and new friends.


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## Gennita Low

vrabinec said:


> Heh, I'm a writer. I've got a million where that one came from. And Quiss knows she's on my hit list.


We aren't afraid. We know you hug teddy bears when you're drunk. Awww. Sweetie.


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## Not Here

Gennita Low said:


> The thing about Internet arguments is, if you've been around long enough, you've heard it all before. I sometimes feel very old when I read an ongoing flameout (not necc. here at KB) because, heck, didn't that happen in 1999 at that other site?


Yes! I saw a meme going around the other day on facebook and thought, "Didn't I see that in '95?" In fact, yes I did.


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## Andykay

Gennita Low said:


> The thing about Internet arguments is, if you've been around long enough, you've heard it all before. I sometimes feel very old when I read an ongoing flameout (not necc. here at KB) because, heck, didn't that happen in 1999 at that other site? With some of the same people? Heh.
> 
> But yeah, procrastination = wine, reading KB long threads and checking sales. Sigh.
> 
> Thank you, moderators. You really do an excellent job. KB is one of the nicest places to hang out and I've hung out at many, many sites where the owners encourage flameouts to get traffic. I feel good here and have found old (waving at Anne and Liliana) and new friends.


I'm fairly sure most arguments online stem from procrastination. In the heat of one of those threads, when someone says, "Honestly, don't you have anything better to do?" I believe the correct response is, "Yes, and I'm trying to avoid it thank you!"


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## Betsy the Quilter

vrabinec said:


> Heh, I'm a writer. I've got a million where that one came from. And Quiss knows she's on my hit list.


S'okay. I've got a lot of asterisks.....


Betsy


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## KBoards Admin

Hmmm, that's a depressing post, T.L.  My own view is that it's not nearly as bad as all that, and I truly feel upbeat about this forum in general and the WC in particular. Sorry your experience has not been a good one here.


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## intinst

T.L. Haddix said:


> That was the last thread I've offered advice on. I don't bother anymore, and at this point in time, I have no plans to do so again. Several reasons - first and foremost, I don't have time. If all I'm doing is frustrating myself, trying to help people and getting slapped down, I'm stupid for even trying. I can spend that time writing my next book. Because too much these days, any advice that isn't what the OP wants to hear, isn't welcome. The resulting melee is more stress that I don't need, all because I'm trying to help someone who doesn't want it, and then get piled on because I dared to speak the truth. Do you all (the newbies, and not all of you) have *any idea how many successful writers you have run away from this forum, or turned in to lurkers, because we're constantly being told we're idiots?*


I know a lot of readers that don't bother with commenting in the Cafe for the same reasons. Many don't even read the posts here.


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## Betsy the Quilter

I think there have always been people who have posted here asking for comments expecting everyone to like their stuff and have been chagrined when they got honest responses that weren't what they expected.  And then got defensive.  It comes and goes.  But we have, at any given time, quite a few critique threads for covers, blurbs, etc, that go quite well.

So, TLH, my response would be, as has been said earlier, say your piece in a thread where someone is asking for advice.  They'll either take it or they won't.  And you've done your job.  Move on to the next thread, don't get frustrated.  Life is too short.

There are many threads I'd abandon if I could. 


Betsy


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Just posting here because I love to look at my new siggy (thanks again, Harvey) and I want to use the new icons.


----------



## Steve Silkin

Geoffrey said:


> French: tais-toi-ment?


_Taguelement_ or _taguelite _(with the accent aigue; pron: _Ta-guel-ee-Tay_)

(_tais toi_ is 'be quiet' ... _ta guele_ is 'shut up')

That's pretty good word invention in English and French! (English has 300,000 words, French 100,000; so now we can say 300,001 and 100,001)


----------



## vrabinec

My French teacher always prefered: ferme la bouche s'il vous plait.


----------



## Anne Frasier

Hi Gennita!  

I somehow miss all of the action here. Maybe because when things start to get rumbly I get bored and move on.  I see locked threads, but realize i missed the whole thing.  Yawn. Speaking of the old days, once years ago on a forum far far away, a poster tried to buy a hit on someone (not a forum member).  He posted the name and how much he'd pay.    I was one of two to see the post because it was the middle of the night. 

But anyhow...sorry for the aside...


I kind of love this place, and I think the mods do a great job.


----------



## Sapphire

I, for one, would hate for the veterans to go away. I come here to ask questions (not always intelligent ones), solve problems, and seek advice. If someone doesn't want advice, they shouldn't ask for it. If they complain about the advice they get, that's their problem. So, veterans of the book battles, don't leave WC. We need you and we want you.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Anne F and many others are good evidence that we have many veteran authors participating in the Writer's Cafe... probably more than we've ever had. I'm thankful for that!


----------



## LilianaHart

Thanks to Harvey, Betsy and Ann. You guys do a great job!


----------



## D/W

Many thanks to Harvey and all the moderators for making KBoards such a special place. Reading KB posts is part of my daily routine now. I've learned _so_ much here!


----------



## Kent Kelly

Hopefully this place will become the premier place to discuss e-book authorship and marketing soon.  There are many entrenched people here who seem to regard this forum, and the people who use it, primarily as a form of attack dog entertainment rather than a resource.


----------



## Alan Petersen

I haven't been here that long, couple years now, but I have noticed a bit more feistiness lately, so great reminder. When two folks who don't agree on an issue and they keep going back and forth, both digging in and refusing to budge, well then it's not too much of a discussion, but a battle to have the last word. So as Frank Costanza would say...






Hats off to Harvey, the mods, and the wonderful members here. This forum has helped me a lot as a writer. And it's members of this forum that helped me along until I finally published my book. So it's a special place for me.


----------



## TexasGirl

The only reason I haven't been banned is that about 1/3 of the posts I write, I delete without posting.

And I never get to the locked threads soon enough.  

Been lots of locked threads lately! But I hadn't noticed a tone shift. But maybe I'm tone deaf.


----------



## Patty Jansen

I don't agree in the slightest that the tone is bad, or nasty. I've seen SO MUCH worse. May I remind people of this place called Authonomy that had no moderation? Or the various forums on Amazon?

Some older folks tend to get a bit jaded (myself included) from seeing the same stuff come up again and again. It's only natural that this happens when new people join who haven't seen the 56645 threads that already exist on how to make Select work for you.

Some folk get offended when people give suggestions. This has never been any different.

This forum already IS the premium place to discuss marketing and the success (or lack of it) thereof.

The KB doesn't "do" marketing hype. It is the one thing I will suggest to a writer who asks me "so, how do I self-publish?". Apart from roll my eyes, which is good because the person can't see that through the internet anyway. I tell them to join the Kindleboards, because there are both people who know more than I do, and people who have a whole lot more patience to answer dumb easily googlable n00b questions.  

(Betsy, where is that devil smiley?)


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Perhaps this is a good time to remind (or inform the folks who missed it) that KindleBoards became KBoards on March 7th.  So, if you're sending people here (thank you!) you should send them to www.kboards.com.  

No devil smileys, or smiley with popcorn, sorry!

And easily searchable for one is where the heck is it? for others.  Trust me, if KBoards were so easily searchable, fewer people would ask me to help them find their book threads.

Betsy


----------



## vrabinec

Patty Jansen said:


> I don't agree in the slightest that the tone is bad, or nasty. I've seen SO MUCH worse.


+1

I'm on Absolute Write, CC, Scribophile, Athonomy, etc..And this is the most civilized of them all, by far. And, with all due respect to the mods and Harvey, it's the people who make it so. You guys are way too cool...except Quiss, she's a problem.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

C.C. Kelly said:


> Um, when I got here I used the search feature a lot and still do. I learned how to do sigs from searching and it was all right there.


Well, I don't have any problem with it either.  But others do. If someone asks a question, my feeling is it's just as easy for me to answer the question as to tell them they should have searched for it. 

Betsy


----------



## A.A

I used to be an admin on a large forum (now over 200,000 members) and I know there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes that members never see.
We were dealing with adult babies freaking mothers out in the baby boards, people posting personal knowledge of current court cases, people harassing others through the private message system, ongoing feuds and so on...

Shutting a discussion down may at times seem heavy-handed, but there are lots of people who simply don't want to see arguments and it turns them off - and they are the people who are least likely to complain. They will just stop visiting the board.

There are places to go where you can state your case to your heart's content. I used to belong to a world politics forum where it was no-holds barred - and in such places you need to back up everything you say, have your facts ready and be ready to have people rip apart every word you say - with lots of swearing and offensive language  

I like that the Writers' Cafe is moderated. The main strength seems to be how supportive it is and why not keep it that way


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

vrabinec said:


> +1
> 
> I'm on Absolute Write, CC, Scribophile, Athonomy, etc..And this is the most civilized of them all, by far. And, with all due respect to the mods and Harvey, it's the people who make it so. You guys are way too cool...


I agree with the above!

Betsy


----------



## AgnesWebb

Betsy the Quilter said:


> And the safety of not being punched in the nose allows people to say things I don't believe many of them would say face-to-face. At least, not as strongly, not as repeatedly, and not within arm's length.
> 
> YES. I agree 100% with this. Thank you for keeping things civil and friendly.


----------



## Mathew Reuther

Thanks for the kind words from so many of you. I'll do what I can to stay around. Maybe it'll work.

I've avoided commenting (why the thread is 4 pages, not 6  ) so I have a little bit to get through from the various things which have been said this afternoon/evening.

People come and go from communities for many reasons. Placing any kind of blame on current community members for past community members no longer being present isn't always fair. On a forum years back everyone missed "so-and-so" and wished they'd come back. Some went so far as to blame others for some old arguments that had led up to the member leaving. But the fact came out through an RL friend of the individual that the person they were referring to had graduated school, gotten married, and stopped being active in the hobby. People cycle in and out as it makes sense in their lives. Try to remember that when you miss the old days, and just enjoy the days as they are. (Loads of fun things happen daily on the WC. Wait, that came out wrong. Wait, that did number two... wait...)

On these boards advice is freely given (sometimes without the request for it, LOL) and for the most part people handle taking it well. In any given thread there will be no doubt conflicting pieces of advice, as well as some potentially bad advice. That's most often not got anything to do with newbies being mean or disrespectful. So if you ever feel slighted, just exhale and move on, or restate if you think what you said was misunderstood. *shrug* But at the end of the day: try to remember that no matter what your experience or why you're giving the advice you are, you might be wrong. (I know . . .   ) Or someone might just decide to go for something different. It's 99.9999% likely to not be meant personally.

The very fact that people can get such varied advice rules. If people are doing a good job of presenting their ideas, it allows folks to consider many different aspects of whatever they are working on. I can attest to how valuable this has been for me. I know others feel the same.

And just as a last aside: in person I generally evaluate what comes out of me even less, and definitely produce more words that the fucking filter would balk at. Still breathing.


----------



## Lisa Grace

vrabinec said:


> +1
> 
> I'm on Absolute Write, CC, Scribophile, Athonomy, etc..And this is the most civilized of them all, by far. And, with all due respect to the mods and Harvey, it's the people who make it so. You guys are way too cool...except Quiss, she's a problem.


I won't go on any of those places, because of the bad advice (people who don't actually self publish, but think they know how it works) and how sh**flakey they get. Kboards is awesome. People share their experience, and I appreciate that. 
You can always unsubscribe from a thread if it no longer helps. Who has time (except the mods who make time in their steampunk lab, thank you!) to read all the threads? I tend to jump in on marketing, results, congratulations, and industry questions. You won't see me discussing craft or the mechanics threads, or certain genre stuff.


----------



## Gina Black

Thank you Harvey, Betsy, and Ann for all the time you put in to keep this place going. It's a huge job, I know. I know I'm not a big poster around here, but there isn't a day that I don't check in to see what's happening. Kboards is an great resource.


----------



## David Alastair Hayden

I come and go as a commenter and mostly lurk, sometimes visit daily and sometimes once a week. Things have seemed edgier lately, but I've seen far worse on other well-moderated boards. But hey, high standards are a good thing. 

I don't do it here, no reason, but I will sometimes write angry comments and delete them. Just clearing out my anger which the world doesn't need.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson

Patty Jansen said:


> I don't agree in the slightest that the tone is bad, or nasty. I've seen SO MUCH worse. May I remind people of this place called Authonomy that had no moderation? Or the various forums on Amazon?
> 
> Some older folks tend to get a bit jaded (myself included) from seeing the same stuff come up again and again. It's only natural that this happens when new people join who haven't seen the 56645 threads that already exist on how to make Select work for you.
> 
> Some folk get offended when people give suggestions. This has never been any different.
> 
> This forum already IS the premium place to discuss marketing and the success (or lack of it) thereof.
> 
> The KB doesn't "do" marketing hype. It is the one thing I will suggest to a writer who asks me "so, how do I self-publish?". Apart from roll my eyes, which is good because the person can't see that through the internet anyway. I tell them to join the Kindleboards, because there are both people who know more than I do, and people who have a whole lot more patience to answer dumb easily googlable n00b questions.
> 
> (Betsy, where is that devil smiley?)


Great post. If there's attrition among older members, I don't think it's because KB has suddenly become nasty or useless or whatever. But it gets exhausting to discuss and answer the same questions over and over. Which isn't a criticism of newer members, either. That's just the nature of the business. It's very early and things change all the time! People _should_ be asking questions.

Also, for people who suddenly have big careers, the maintenance is pretty nuts.. I think a lot of vets just don't have time to keep up anymore. I feel like KB is, unfortunately, a place that's going to have a lot of churn around the people who might be able to contribute the most.

Anyway, rambling. But I expect in a lot of cases, it's not that the forum's changed, it's that we have.

On another note, I sometimes feel like Kboards errs on the side of civility once members start raising tough questions in a given thread. It's a tough line to walk, though, and ultimately we all have to decide for ourselves whether the value provided by the forum is worth our time. For whatever Kboards' faults--and I sometimes feel like perceived incivility is treated more harshly than genuine threats to the community--I doubt I'd be able to find a more welcoming forum of people eager to share successes, failures, experience, and advice.


----------



## Patty Jansen

Ditto on not having the time. Because all of a sudden people are asking you "Where is the next book?" and you go

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

*Kermitflail*


----------



## Terrence OBrien

I have a habit of not opening threads that don't interest me. I don't care what they do when I'm not reading it. Good luck, whatever is happening in there.


----------



## Nicholas Andrews

jimkukral said:


> Not sure where some people get off thinking they have "rights" to act however they want.


This made me laugh, because it reminded me of another forum I used to visit. I don't remember if the poster was spamming or attacking other members or what was happening, but his posts were being deleted. He also either didn't speak English very well or had serious grammar and spelling issues. He responded to this censorship by making a post aimed at admins, punctuated with the statement "u r effecting my rites!"

He didn't last much longer, but U R EFFECTING MY RITES became a board meme for a long time afterward.


----------



## brendajcarlton

I just want to add another thank you to the mods for the great job they do.  I've learned so much from this board.  I try to contribute when I can which is mostly on the craft threads, since my sales record is dismal.    Regarding the tone problem, when a thread turns into squabbling, I just stop reading it.  If I want to listen to squabbling I can always go visit my grandkids.  One thing I don't understand is why it's so hard to accept that someone is wrong but you (generic you) will never change their mind.  If someone believes that the moon is made of blue cheese, and you've argued once against that position, why make it your mission in life to convince them?  I don't have the psychic energy to expend on such arguments.


----------



## P.C. (Peter) Anders

Harvey said:


> We are concerned about a growing lack of civility in posts in the Writer's Cafe. We want to remind everyone about our rules of decorum. These are the rules of the house and will be enforced.
> 
> Note: Some of the reasons for the bans will include not only personal attacks, but also situations where a member tends to pick apart other people's posts. That is not conducive to rich conversation. To those members: you may indeed be the smartest person in the room, but if you feel you have to prove that by continually parsing out and contradicting other people's posts, you are not enriching the conversation.
> 
> -Harvey


I understand. Yes, that's fair.


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin

Harvey said:


> When necessary we will impose bans on members. Here's how that works:
> 
> a. We first give a warning to the member via PM
> b. If the behavior recurs, we invoke a temporary ban
> c. If the behavior recurs after that, we invoke a permanent ban. Please note that, in our five years of operations, we have never lifted a permanent ban once it has been invoked, despite repeated appeals from banned authors. Once you get that third strike, you're out.
> -Harvey


I'm also a moderator on a motorcycle forum, and I've been banned from AbsoluteWrite, so I've seen both sides of the mirror. At the motorcycle forum, there was only one member who was banned, returned under another name, was tolerated for a year, then permanently banned. That raised a ruckus you won't believe! People came out of the woodwork to protest the permanent ban, citing the banners as dictators, quitting the board, etcetera.

I used to be on AbsoluteWrite, where I posted more than 1700 posts. I was banned, together with some other members, because the clique who moderates AW had a severe problem with positive posts concerning self-publishing. Several of the friends I made at AW were severely upset by my ban and either stopped posting at AW or stopped giving advice, basically censoring themselves. Some wanted to rally for my return, but I vetoed that, not wanting them to harm their reputation for a board that didn't want me for a member.

The main problem was not the ban, but the permanence of the ban. In both cases, both at the motorcycle forum and at AW, a ban of a month or maybe three months would be better, both so the banned member can cool off and reconsider his/her position and for the remaining members on the board, for whom a permanent board is unfair, but a temporary ban can be a just punishment.



Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'll point out that this is the Internet. And the safety of not being punched in the nose allows people to say things I don't believe many of them would say face-to-face. At least, not as strongly, not as repeatedly, and not within arm's length.
> Betsy


I'm no different on the internet as I am in real life. And I rallied against keyboard 'tough guys' in the past, but I've learned not to do that anymore. After all, it's no use arguing with an idiot. They only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

I just want to say that I'm very much encouraged by the positive responses I'm seeing here.  

Honestly. . . .with tax season and extra choir prep for extra church services in the next couple of weeks, I've not has as much time as usual to check in here.  You can maybe imagine the huge downer it is when I get my half hour at the end of the day to chill out and the first thing I see are threads that have been locked because of a variety of bad behavior. 

Please understand: the majority of our members are NO PROBLEM! I know that!  And yet. 

So I wholeheartedly endorsed Harvey's suggestion that we post publicly to address the issue and it's encouraging to hear that people are supportive. 

(It was definitely a more productive suggestion than my, "Can we just close the Cafe for a week or so and let everyone calm down?"    Which was born only of my overall fatigue. )

Anyway -- I agree that this is one of the best places on the internet. . . over the years I've joined the odd board now and then, and never really stuck with any of them.  Usually the original 'joining' was to get a question answered and there wasn't any sense of 'community' -- so once I had an answer, there was very little motivation to stick around, for me.  This place is different and, even if my husband does make fun of me, I enjoy checking in here daily.  Heck, I'd do so even if I wasn't a moderator!


----------



## 60911

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Great post. If there's attrition among older members, I don't think it's because KB has suddenly become nasty or useless or whatever. But it gets exhausting to discuss and answer the same questions over and over. Which isn't a criticism of newer members, either. That's just the nature of the business. It's very early and things change all the time! People _should_ be asking questions.
> 
> Also, for people who suddenly have big careers, the maintenance is pretty nuts.. I think a lot of vets just don't have time to keep up anymore. I feel like KB is, unfortunately, a place that's going to have a lot of churn around the people who might be able to contribute the most.
> 
> Anyway, rambling. But I expect in a lot of cases, it's not that the forum's changed, it's that we have.
> 
> On another note, I sometimes feel like Kboards errs on the side of civility once members start raising tough questions in a given thread. It's a tough line to walk, though, and ultimately we all have to decide for ourselves whether the value provided by the forum is worth our time. For whatever Kboards' faults--and I sometimes feel like perceived incivility is treated more harshly than genuine threats to the community--I doubt I'd be able to find a more welcoming forum of people eager to share successes, failures, experience, and advice.


Sorry, Ed, but I've got to disagree with you here and agree with you at the same time. Yes, there's more to do as things take off, but I find myself actively avoiding KB of late because of the turn things have taken. As vicariously enjoyable as it can occasionally be (yes, I'm guilty of this) to grab some popcorn and sit back to watch a thread burn, it's not really the best use of my time at present (and I'm not strong enough to look away because it's just soooo...darned...compelling...  ).

I respect the tough job the Kboard mods have, and they do it exceptionally well, but they can't be everywhere at once. Speaking from my perspective I think Harvey is dead-on in the OP, and a few of my writer friends have left for exactly that rise in incivility. I also think that T.L. captured perfectly a segment of that problem and why I don't come around much anymore and only lurk when I do. Just to add my my own twist to it, I also felt like toward the end I was spending my time reading posts that were of "the sky is falling" variety and trying to convince people that it wasn't. You can only do so much of that in a year when you're trying to crank out ten books before you go..."What the hell am I doing?"


----------



## B.A. Spangler

KayBratt said:


> I love this place, too. And appreciate all you and the mods do. I know it's not always easy to make that judgement call.
> 
> You all do a great job.


Late to the thread, but THIS THIS THIS.

I am grateful to you and the moderators for supporting boards. Without this site, I would never have learned as much as I have in the last year. Thank you.


----------



## Quiss

David Alastair Hayden said:


> I don't do it here, no reason, but I will sometimes write angry comments and delete them. Just clearing out my anger which the world doesn't need.


This can sometimes be a good exercise. 
There have been a few posts that I've written and then asked myself: What will this accomplish? Am I just whining/venting/complaining? Will this just upset someone without adding anything useful to the conversation? Is this about me, or the OP? Has the point already been made? Does my view on this really matter at this time? Is this as funny/witty/interesting as I think it is, or will someone take it the wrong way? 
And then I delete. Most of the time.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Quiss said:


> This can sometimes be a good exercise.
> There have been a few posts that I've written and then asked myself: What will this accomplish? Am I just whining/venting/complaining? Will this just upset someone without adding anything useful to the conversation? Is this about me, or the OP? Has the point already been made? Does my view on this really matter at this time? Is this as funny/witty/interesting as I think it is, or will someone take it the wrong way?
> And then I delete. Most of the time.


I do that, too. A lot.


Betsy


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Quiss said:


> This can sometimes be a good exercise.
> There have been a few posts that I've written and then asked myself: What will this accomplish? Am I just whining/venting/complaining? Will this just upset someone without adding anything useful to the conversation? Is this about me, or the OP? Has the point already been made? Does my view on this really matter at this time? Is this as funny/witty/interesting as I think it is, or will someone take it the wrong way?
> And then I delete. Most of the time.





Betsy the Quilter said:


> I do that, too. A lot.
> 
> 
> Betsy


Me too!


----------



## Mathew Reuther

RobertJCrane said:


> Speaking from my perspective I think Harvey is dead-on in the OP, and a few of my writer friends have left for exactly that rise in incivility. I also think that T.L. captured perfectly a segment of that problem and why I don't come around much anymore and only lurk when I do. Just to add my my own twist to it, I also felt like toward the end I was spending my time reading posts that were of "the sky is falling" variety and trying to convince people that it wasn't. You can only do so much of that in a year when you're trying to crank out ten books before you go..."What the hell am I doing?"


As your personal writing/publishing stress rises, the amount of gain (because you already know a lot) you get from reading threads diminishes, and your nostalgia level increases it is a natural effect to pull back. It's also natural to lay that at the feet of the changing times, rather than the changing Robert, but you are a vastly different person than you were a year ago as a writer and publisher. The person you are now is clocking a half year's salary in a month. You're inspirational. You're awesome. YOU'RE _*BUSY*_.

Your own situation lowers your available tolerance dramatically. What once was an acceptable amount of static for the knowledge you got out of the experience is going to be increasingly intolerable as your time is continually limited by the pressures of maintaining (now that you can make x amount, you have to produce to maintain) your writing and production schedule. You're slapping in some heavy wordcount days. That doesn't leave all that much for putting on a forum. And why should it? This is peripheral to your job. Your career. Your avocation.

I've lurked off and on for a while, but for the fun I went back a long, long time in the WC, and I found scattered throughout the months various heated debates. Some locked, some not. Some edited, some not. But what I found was about what I'd expect. The same questions asked repeatedly. The same answers hashed and rehashed. Some of the same players at times. And others who are now less active. But all in all (though I can't see deleted/original posts) it looked similar to what I've seen here this year.

Eventually people get tired, and that's why forums (all forums) have an ebb and flow of members. That's why veterans leave only to come back refreshed when they haven't just read four threads on X and five on Y. It's why new people come in and cause a stir, not having been exposed to the same questions and arguments, they're not (yet) fatigued. The stamina of the youth, if you'd like.

In a year some of those who are newer will be doing very well. Others will still be struggling. Some veterans will be back, feeling fresh. Some of us may have been banned. 

But KB and the WC will go on much the same. With the new and excited, the old and jaded. The wise and the foolish (and those people have different names depending on who you ask) will meet to ponder the meaning of all the old favorite topics. And sometimes there will be a scrap of industry news that ignites the passions of many and makes for a new and interesting epic read.

In the meantime the hope is that as many of the members here are able to capitalize on the shared knowledge and move along in their careers. Because this particular little corner of the KB is where we TRY to make the magic that excites the rest of the site. What we do in here is supposed to translate to people being entertained out there.

And I think that's a worthy shared goal.


----------



## Mathew Reuther

Ann in Arlington said:


> Me too!


Sadly, I do this as well.

Imagine what I *don't* end up saying.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Mathew Reuther said:


> Sadly, I do this as well.
> 
> Imagine what I *don't* end up saying.




Truly a scary thought!


----------



## Honeybun

Mathew Reuther said:


> For full disclosure, not that it will shock or amaze anyone, but I'm on my last step, having already been banned for a week once.
> 
> That said, I think that as I am in that position, it's absolutely worth commenting.
> 
> I think a bit too much worry is invested at times in some posts by some board members and the moderation staff. If you think of a post as a discussion in a salon at some event or the other: a group of people are engaging in chatter, and eventually in the middle of the discourse, a few people get more heated. (Happens at social gatherings of all kinds, in relation to all kinds of topics from sports to politics to cars to you-name-it.)
> 
> Now, if you were to (as host) break this up and send everyone to their corners and prohibit speaking of such things again in the near future, it wouldn't allow people to resolve things. And that's precisely what happens when you lock down a thread. You remove the ability of the (presumably) adult human beings involved to follow through with a line of discussion until its conclusion.
> 
> You rob them of the ability to come to their own kind of consensus, and to find middle ground. Middle ground we are all taught to at least try and seek. (And which, judging from my PM box after locked threads, absolutely exists.)
> 
> I certainly don't disagree that some issues need to be cut short. No doubt about it. But I mentioned to Harvey the other evening that I felt he was perhaps being needlessly pessimistic about a specific thread. (Though I freely admit to understanding that he's concerned with the whole.) A thread which was allowed to remain in play, and which did indeed result in discussion which then cooled and naturally ended. These are the types of discussions I am referring to when I say that some would be better left alone so that they could run their course and reach a natural conclusion.
> 
> I think it might lower tensions overall if some things were just left to the folks in the WC to deal with themselves. Of course, in order to know this for sure, we'd have to see some threads which were heated not get shuttered, and that's a tough call to make, as I'm sure we all understand. I'm fairly sure nobody here thinks that Harvey, Betsy, and Ann have it easy in that regard.
> 
> ***
> 
> Now, outside of my own thoughts regarding the fact that I trust most of us in most situations to eventually come around to some kind of an understanding, there's one other specific statement which concerns me here.
> 
> That's the fact that "picking apart posts" is the way I have posted since USENET. Since dialup BBSes. For two decades. And as I have said to Harvey in private, I do this for clarity. So that it is possible to see exactly what I am referring to for myself while I am responding, and for others when they read. I certainly don't break a post down and reply to specific elements to insult anyone.
> 
> So despite my intentions: my established, decades long posting style, is unacceptable.
> 
> That pretty much sucks rocks. *shrug*


Just a thought -- and before I say this I want to say that I feel safe on this board. It's my understanding that many boards can get nasty and very attacking, etc., and I haven't felt that at all here. This is the place I come to to spend time with other writers, share ideas, to learn, and to feel that I am part of a community that I don't have access to in my real-life. So, I want it out there, I love this place and I LOVE the positive, gentle, encouraging and supportive tone of kboard. *cannot over emphasize that!!! Truly!!!*

Having said that, and not wanting to risk changing the tone of the board, possibly a new option could be presented to thread creators? Would it be possible to include an option for a thread-creator to indicate that they do not want a thread to be moderated? And on the thread board, that thread would be clearly marked as not-moderated? It could ease the burden of the moderators while providing some of the more out-spoken contributors a chance to communicate in whatever style best suited their needs for the moment.

And of course if someone created a thread in which they did not want to risk the presence of certain styles of communication, then that thread-creator could indicate that they did want the thread to be moderated (which could be the default option).

I know that for myself personally, I would probably always opt to have any threads I created to be moderated. I know that some folks (speaking in general) can become very negative and attacking and I'm very uncomfortable with that. It becomes toxic. And, so, I would opt to have all of my threads moderated.

Anyway -- just an idea! I know that would take some system work with the website. But, as I said, it could also decrease the burden of the moderators while protecting the tone of the overall site.


----------



## Honeybun

RobertJCrane said:


> I respect the tough job the Kboard mods have, and they do it exceptionally well, but they can't be everywhere at once. Speaking from my perspective I think Harvey is dead-on in the OP, and a few of my writer friends have left for exactly that rise in incivility. I also think that T.L. captured perfectly a segment of that problem and why I don't come around much anymore and only lurk when I do. *Just to add my my own twist to it, I also felt like toward the end I was spending my time reading posts that were of "the sky is falling" variety and trying to convince people that it wasn't. You can only do so much of that in a year when you're trying to crank out ten books before you go..."What the hell am I doing?"*


I do agree with this. When reading a thread, if it turns into all the-sky-is falling, I eventually start skipping ahead and then tune it out but it does have an impact. Some folks have doomsdayer personalities and like to stand on the street corner with their billboards. And yet.. the world's still here. I know big horrible things can and do happen -- they really do. And when they do, it can be paradigm altering. But, they don't happen near as often as what people say they will. -- Okay, maybe this was one of those comments where I start to question what have I accomplished by posting it. lol .. as was mentioned by others in the thread.


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## jdfield

Writers Cafe is brilliantly taken care of. Thanks so much.


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## Caddy

> Just to add my my own twist to it, *I also felt like toward the end I was spending my time reading posts that were of "the sky is falling" variety and trying to convince people that it wasn't*. You can only do so much of that in a year when you're trying to crank out ten books before you go..."What the hell am I doing?"


We have lost (or have seen a whole lot less of them)a couple of authors who actually DO make a great living self publishing because of this. And, no, I won't name names. I don't have permission. It is too bad because those are the ones who give new and rising authors hope.


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## telracs

I have to wryly laugh at a few things in this thread.  From this reader's perspective.
1.  Kboards was created as a board for kindle owners.  While it's nice that authors are here, I wish they'd come out and be "people" not just authors.  There is a lot more to kboards than just the WC, but lately, it seems that the WC is where everyone is posting everything, including discussions that would (in my opinion) belong in NQK or the Book Corner.
2.  I've gotten into the habit of responding once to a thread and (unless someone asks a direct question or something really new comes up), not responding anymore.  I say what I have to say and then move on.  Too often it seems that people get stuck repeating themselves.  Sorry folks, if I don't agree with what you have to say the first time, trying to bang my head into the wall to get me to agree isn't going to help.
3. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but everyone needs to remember that.  And to remember that opinions are just that, yours.  It's not a personal attack nor am I an idiot because I don't agree with you.  
4. Just because there are mean, nasty fora out there doesn't mean that it's okay to mean here.  This is the "nice" board because our moderators have a lower tolerance for stuff than other boards.  I'd like to see it stay that way.


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## Vera Nazarian

First of all, a tremendous THANK YOU and a round of applause to Harvey, Betsy, and Ann for all the even-handed and friendly moderating that keeps Kboards the best place to be if you want to become proficient in New Publishing. 

As a veteran of USENET, SFF Net, and fun places like the SFWA Lounge, I'm pretty much immured against flames, argument, and heated rhetoric.... Been there, done that, lost battles, won battles, consumed spectator popcorn. So I actually appreciate gentle nudges of moderation to tell me -- or anyone else -- that we are getting a little too hot to handle. 

Let me tell you, this is a NICE board/forum. One might even say, too nice. *grin* And I appreciate it!

Keep up the good work everyone! And let's all keep the good conversation and career-building information flowing.


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## Sapphire

Reading through this post is a quick study of human nature tinged with a touch of psychology class observation. I truly have read nothing with which I disagree, even though various opinions have been brought forth. Thank you to everyone for your insights and to the moderators for their worthy (and time-consuming) efforts.

A brief message to Mathew: I believe I have a better understanding of you after reading your posts on this thread. It seems you possess a higher level of maturity that you sometimes deny, or pretend to deny. What I mean is...I like you better after reading your comments here.


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## Adam Pepper

I think the mods do an awesome job. We are a diverse and passionate bunch. Allow us our passions and feel free to smack us on the fanny when you deem it necessary.

I'm sure some people get frustrated and feel their contributions are in vain, but I can assure you they arent. I've learned a lot and been inspired by those more successful than I who come here and share their knowledge and experiences.  I hope that continues.


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## Betsy the Quilter

I agree with most of what I've read, too.  Especially the posts that say, in part, I'm doing a great job.  

I do recognize that there is more than one way to run a forum, and more than one tone that would be acceptable to many members.  "Nice" is what we strive for here.  And, I think I'm safe in speaking for Harvey and the rest of the admin staff, as long as we are involved with KBoards, it will continue to be the tone we strive for.  It's what suits us, and, apparently, what suits most of our membership.  Whether it suits you (generic you) or not is a question each of you will have to answer for yourself.

(Seriously, thanks, everyone for all the positive comments about the moderating staff here.  My fellow mods are great people, and we have a great membership. As a result, being a moderator here has NEVER been a thankless job.  Which is why I'm still here, almost five years later...)

Betsy


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## AshMP

telracs said:


> I have to wryly laugh at a few things in this thread. From this reader's perspective.
> 1. Kboards was created as a board for kindle owners. While it's nice that authors are here, I wish they'd come out and be "people" not just authors. There is a lot more to kboards than just the WC, but lately, it seems that the WC is where everyone is posting everything, including discussions that would (in my opinion) belong in NQK or the Book Corner.


I think it should be said that many of us belong to this community simply because it offers one of the nicer playgrounds for writers (due mostly impart to excellent moderation and amazing writers willing to give their knowledge, talents and advice freely), and I say that not to take away from the other categories on this board at all, -- actually I joined KBoards as a reader of a Kindle and nothing more. At one time I was super active in the accessories forum and talking about the Kindles as they were released and participating in the good ol' Kindle watches.

But, as it happens from time to time, I've evolved and in tandem so has my "forum" usage. There simply isn't the same amount of free time as there was once was in my life -- and what free time I do have, to peruse a forum, I chose to spend it, still, discussing the business of being a writer.

The thing about being a writer is that the first part of the equation is realizing you've entered into a very solitary career. It's you, your computer, maybe some music and not much else. It's not like other jobs where you whittle away the day in office and get to discuss common plights over cups of coffee in the break-room. Writers Cafe is our virtual break room. We've bonded over our shared issues and heartaches and headaches. We commiserate because inside _everyone_ understands. So when something NQK arises, I believe the first instinct is to take it to those we consider part of our "tribe" -- same as you'd discuss something not-quite-work with a colleague ... because we know each other very well and it seems only natural, you've learned to value their opinion and believe their level of honesty and sincerity when it comes to the things you discussed in the past. I don't think we try to be anti-social on purpose ... and I genuinely hope our holing up in here isn't perceived that way.

It's true, sometimes this board turns snarky and things that shouldn't be said are said and people get huffy and insulted and the daggers come out and people salt fields and throw livestock down wells. It happens. But for every one instance like that, you have a dozen that are truly helpful and epitomize the purpose of this forum. It's why I return day after day ... and why I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Honeybun

Italiahaircolor said:


> The thing about being a writer is that the first part of the equation is realizing you've entered into a very solitary career. It's you, your computer, maybe some music and not much else. It's not like other jobs where you whittle away the day in office and get to discuss common plights over cups of coffee in the break-room. Writers Cafe is our virtual break room. We've bonded over our shared issues and heartaches and headaches. We commiserate because inside _everyone_ understands. So when something NQK arises, I believe the first instinct is to take it to those we consider part of our "tribe" -- same as you'd discuss something not-quite-work with a colleague ... because we know each other very well and it seems only natural, you've learned to value their opinion and believe their level of honesty and sincerity when it comes to the things you discussed in the past. I don't think we try to be anti-social on purpose ... and I genuinely hope our holing up in here isn't perceived that way.


This is how I feel.



Italiahaircolor said:


> It's true, sometimes this board turns snarky and things that shouldn't be said are said and people get *huffy and insulted and the daggers come out and people salt fields and throw livestock down wells. * It happens. But for every one instance like that, you have a dozen that are truly helpful and epitomize the purpose of this forum. It's why I return day after day ... and why I wouldn't have it any other way.


...out loud, mouth covering chuckle here.


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## daynahart

telracs said:


> 1. Kboards was created as a board for kindle owners. While it's nice that authors are here, I wish they'd come out and be "people" not just authors. There is a lot more to kboards than just the WC, but lately, it seems that the WC is where everyone is posting everything, including discussions that would (in my opinion) belong in NQK or the Book Corner.


This is sort of off-topic (apologies!) but honestly, as an author, in a lot of different places on the Internet, I've been told that I'm not welcome where the readers are. I've also been told that my opinion on books is suspect, since it's more than likely to be sour grapes, or that, as an author/editor, my opinion is somehow going to be more meritorious to readers than if I were just a reader, and that's unfair to the books/authors I might dislike.

So...when I joined Kboards (the day before it changed!) I pointed my bookmark to the WC. I haven't explored anywhere else because I didn't really think I'd be welcome. I've actually been mostly-lurking even _here_ as I figure out the 'rules'.

And that xkcd comic is my favorite thing of all time on the internet.


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## Betsy the Quilter

I do want to make sure we don't lose sight of our goal here.  In support of our vision that KBoards in general and the Writers' Cafe in particular have a nicer tone, we're asking that members self-moderate to some extent.  Please, think about what you post so that the wells don't get spoiled and the fields salted.  Civil disagreement is fine, but lately, it's been going over the line far too often here.

And let's keep this discussion on the topic of the tone in the Writers' Cafe, thanks.

(Though, let me say, daynahart, Welcome to KBoards!  And writers are welcome everywhere as long as they join threads not to sell their books but to have a genuine conversation!)

Betsy


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## Jonathan C. Gillespie

Folks, I can tell you this is the best message board/forum I've ever been a part of.

Matt--stick around. Yeah, you're sometimes a little contrarian, but it's primarily just a product of passion. You believe in what you're doing. Fair enough, and I respect that. But if I can give you any advice...what might help you out is just working on saying your peace, getting it across once (or maybe with a single follow-up), and then just moving on.

I think you've got a lot to contribute; just work on how you contribute it, if you see my point.

Mods: I love you. All of you. You do a fantastic job and I think you've juggled some often dicey situations very well.

For everyone else: I'm just double-checking that I've not gotten under anyone's skin. I used to be really aggressive on message boards when I was younger, for a variety of reasons. And paranoia being what it is--I just want to make sure I haven't added to any tonality issues. So if I have, please do mention it.

Thanks.


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## Josh St. John

I've been a member here for a little over a year now.  I don't post very much, I mostly just lurk and learn while I'm still working on my first novel -- and will randomly put my .02 in when I feel I can contribute to a thread.  Two NaNo's ago, I started writing this novel, and happened to come across this board in my search for self-publishing knowledge.  The WC is always open in one of my tabs, and I check in constantly.  

I feel that the moderation of this forum is superbly done.  I thank the mods, Harvey, and all the WC posters for making this place awesome -- and I hope this thread reminds all of us of how great this place truly is.


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## daynahart

sorry, Betsy, for going OT. ::sheepish:: And thanks for the welcome. 

From what I've seen, the tone of the WC isn't out of line with what I'd expect from a group of writers (I moderate at a different writer's forum). Thanks for the work you all do to keep things running smoothly. For myself, I promise to play nice.


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## Al Dente

This message forum is awesome. I have seriously grown as a writer from reading and participating in all sorts of posts from authors at all levels in their careers. You can't get that anywhere else. Where else can you give advice to someone just starting out in the business and then turn around and ask advice from a New York Times bestselling author?

My policy is to get along with everyone, which isn't hard because everyone here is great, especially the Sith sitting over in the corner pretending to be grumpy all the time. You're not fooling me. Heart of gold! (don't force choke me) 



humblenations said:


> With my High-functioning-Aspergers and English-humour I get myself into all sorts of scrapes here. I always try and apologies quickly. But I'm shocked I've not had a warning yet.
> 
> Matt, my brother, don't get yourself banned. If something wrankles you, you should throw it in a story. Or
> 
> I had a look inside all of your books the other day. I do with everyone. I'm a nosey bar-stool. Can't help myself. Your prose works. Keep at it.


Accept my Facebook friend request, you... you... you... awesome cover designer!


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

When new writers ask for advice I always give them the link to this forum for the vast amount of writing knowledge that can be found here, and knowing that fragile egos (usually) won't be hurt. WC is like a family with Mother Betsy preventing the squabbles turning into fights


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## Betsy the Quilter

daynahart said:


> sorry, Betsy, for going OT. ::sheepish:: And thanks for the welcome.
> 
> From what I've seen, the tone of the WC isn't out of line with what I'd expect from a group of writers (I moderate at a different writer's forum). Thanks for the work you all do to keep things running smoothly. For myself, I promise to play nice.


Not to worry, Dayna--you aren't the one who started the off topic discussion... *looks sternly at telracs*
 It's always difficult to keep threads here on track.

Betsy


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## telracs

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Not to worry, Dayna--you aren't the one who started the off topic discussion... *looks sternly at telracs*
> It's always difficult to keep threads here on track.
> 
> Betsy


*hands besty some chocolate*


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## jackz4000

I want to thank Harvey and the girls (Betsy & Ann) for keeping the WC a decent place to come to. Honestly. It's a great place. Don't need no drama or heated arguments. There are plenty of other battle-zone-forums out there who need a little combat and bloodsport. Most come here because they keep it clean. If anybody wants to snark it up--plenty of other venues out there to display your genius.

A line from my old nightclub bartender days, "I don't care where you go--you just can't stay here."  Sometimes you gotta show some people the door. Politely.


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## Gertie Kindle

I still have friends here and I still hang out here (although I'm choosy about where I post) because it's a safe place to be, despite some heated debates. I think the new folks soon learn that this is unlike other forums they've been on and either heave a huge sigh of relief and join nicely in the discussion or go elsewhere to spew their venom. 

My first forum was COSforums which is very strict and very safe so this is what I'm used to and I'm grateful for COS and KB.


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## Jeff

T.L. Haddix said:


> That's my two cents. It's something I've wanted to say for a while, but there wasn't a thread where that sort of thing would be appropriate.


Your two cents is appreciated. I hope your post and this thread will be taken to heart.


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## BenEBrewer

Maybe it should be toned down, maybe it shouldn't. Your house, your rules - fair play to you! I can see others on this thread have *let off some steam* with their feelings, so here's mine. I tend to be pretty blunt about things, it's always worked for me and I'll make no apologies for it - thus - this is just my feelings on the forum...

When I first became a member, I was very eager to read through most posts and grasp the knowledge that others had, I was *happy* that a place like this existed.

But as I gained that knowledge, I discovered a world that existed beneath the veil of writers cafe - *This is simply authors selling to authors and it just makes no sense to me!* - So I sat back and watched the forum, didn't participate for a while. My tip would be to not allow authors to promote their own books in the signature line, the recent updates have gone some way to counter-act this but I'd like to see what happens if self promotion of any kind was banned - *see who doesn't come back then!*

The same names would pop up under every thread, every page, every time I logged on. As soon as I eyed those names, I'd leave straight away, and wouldn't even bother to look at the threads. Sure it's great to be part of a community on the internet but maybe some people are too serious here, maybe people should lighten up a bit and get their heads out the sand? Not everyone knows *everything* as some people obviously do.

It might please some but this will be my last post here, I have better things to concentrate on, like actually writing and making money with my online ventures. I've asked questions before and I've had no responses, I've had to ask on other forums and I always got the right answers I was looking for. I've left advice on some threads here, *very good advice*, but it's gone unnoticed.

So, I have to ask myself - what's the point in posting here? When everything I say or ask is just completely ignored and not just me, *I've seen some wonderful advice just floating through the pages. Yet some people turn that free advice into a battleground for their own opinions.*

I have read some blogs by writers, very successful writers, who just despair with the whole of Kboards. There are many threads where _*authors ask other authors to download their books simply to increase their ranks*_ - this has got to be against Amazon T&Cs somewhere, especially where it is solely for the purpose of rank increases.

Maybe promotional threads such as eBook listing sites should be in a whole other board. I'm guilty of promoting one of my sites within the board and every time I see it, it just seems out of place with the whole board ethos... Which I thought was about writers helping writers, but in actuality it's about authors promoting to authors and service providers promoting to authors - *I rarely see threads that discuss the actual art of writing* and even then, it will no doubt descend into a "I'm right." "No, I'm right." scenario.

There is also a *huge anti-traditional publishing vibe* to the whole of Kboards and this is one of the many reasons why such great writers leave. I've seen many threads recently where the very mention of traditional publishing is responded to with posts of derision and scoffing remarks

What astonishes me also is that so many people who argue on the Writer's Cafe don't realize that the posts are here for a very long time, if not the life of the internet. When readers come here looking for inspiration and a new author to discover (*because Kboards is primarily about readers and kindle users*), they are met with angry writers trying to prove a point alongside misguided information on how to boost book rankings. As a reader myself - that puts me right off any author or publisher who is seen to be belittling another, certainly not the professionalism I was hoping to expect.

But that's me done, I'll go on and delete my promotional threads, get back to not worrying about forums and move on in other directions. I will still put my head in and see if there is any worthwhile advice every now and again, but won't be posting while the board stays like this. I hope I have not offended anyone in posting this but I've been playing with this for a while and I just think it had to be said.

Regards...


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## Becca Mills

Oh for the love of Pete. Can we have a no-dramatic-stormings-off rule along with No-Filter Fridays?

<grumble>

Sent from my LG-VS700 using Tapatalk 2


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## JeanneM

Betsy...LOL...I just saw the boot in your pic.  Love it.  

I wish you fast healing.


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## Sara Fawkes

I have always been treated well on this board, even though I've shared my own opinions before and run afoul of the Mods for signature issues (wrong Associate tags!). But I've watch many people be all but run off the board here, or who were demeaned in ways that went way too far. To be sure, the Mods usually stepped in at that point, or at the point where things were starting to get nasty, but the damage has often been done already. 

That's the main reason I mostly lurk nowadays - that and OMG this board has exploded!!! I applaud Betsy and the rest of the mods because corralling all the people who post on WC, let alone the rest of KB, is a full time job!  I'd love to see some of the sniping and catty passive-aggression go away; this place is such a wealth of knowledge, but to those who are new it's also more than a little intimidating.


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## Sapphire

Ben, how do you know no one is taking your advice? I read a lot of these threads, mull over the information in my brain, and pick and choose what is of value to me. That is not an instant process. Sometimes it takes hours, or even days. By then I can't remember who said what so I am not able to say thank you, but I have absorbed a lot of worthwhile material. I doubt I'm alone in this experience.


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## Guest

Seriously though, I found Ben's post a major downer. Not going to say anymore but just leave it at that.


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## AkBee

Not an author but I love WC and get starstruck here at times. Having moderated forums for another demographic in the past I know it is a time consuming and thoughtful process when the mods care about the community as Harvey and his co-mods do. I have lurked forever as a reader and still feel shy about even posting, especially here in the WC. Not because of any conflict or drama, though. I enjoy the threads and getting perspective from those who write the books I love. I so appreciate the time, effort, and care given to kboards. Thanks!


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## Andrew Ashling

I'd like to add my voice to the general praise. The mods are doing an admirable job here. Can't be easy to find a good balance.


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## Honeybun

MzPiggy said:


> Not an author but I love WC and get starstruck here at times. Having moderated forums for another demographic in the past I know it is a time consuming and thoughtful process when the mods care about the community as Harvey and his co-mods do. I have lurked forever as a reader and still feel shy about even posting, especially here in the WC. Not because of any conflict or drama, though. I enjoy the threads and getting perspective from those who write the books I love. I so appreciate the time, effort, and care given to kboards. Thanks!


That's a very sweet post.

And, I didn't do so earlier but I wanted to give a shout out to the Mods -- Ann, Betsy, & Harvey -- big major THANK YOU!!! to you guys. Consider me curtsying (versus tipping my hat).


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## Terrence OBrien

I agree tone has changed. But my speculation is its because eBooks are attracting an increasing subset of authors who differ from those that populated traditional publishing. Ebook authors are entrepreneurial. They are pushing their products into the market rather than asking a gatekeeper to let them in. They want to make a buck. They lack the patience we might have seen in the past.

This subset also seems to lack a respect for those who have gone before them. Status and longevity mean little. Accomplishment today matters. The fact that something worked in the past isn't sufficient to adopt it today. Neither is consensus of posters on a forum. Authority is questioned, and that often isn't appreciated by authorities.

So I'm seeing a cultural change, and an accompanying conflict. It's a shift in balance. A new kind of writer is coming onto an already crowded field, and he's bringing new attitudes. Let the games begin. Ain't this a great country?


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## dalya

Terrence OBrien said:


> I agree tone has changed. But my speculation is its because eBooks area attracting an increasing subset of authors who differ from those that populated traditional publishing ...


Or that the firm hand of smack-laying came down in the KDP forums recently and everyone came over here. I know some of our new-regulars were well-known over there and don't post there as much. Lots of cool folks over there, too, but the browsing format isn't as friendly, and of course they don't have our awesome and beloved Mods.


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## AshMP

Besty, I apologize in advance for going off topic ...

*BenEBrewer* ... I understand how you feel, not in this case, but on other forums I've experienced more or less the same sentiment you're expressing here. I was, at one time, a very active member of another forum ... but things shifted there and the dynamic was no longer what I personally was seeking ... I moved on. It happens, that's why there are hundreds upon hundreds of different forum sites -- each gives you the chance to look at things different perspectives, and if you're lucky, you'll find one that feels like a community to which you truly belong. I wish you the best as far as that goes.

My only other comment would be on the "trade" vs. "indie" conclusion you've drawn. On both sides of that coin you're going to find strong believers, WC just has a bigger population of indies -- so that side tends to be more vocal because there are more of us to chatter about it -- but you have the cases, like with Hugh Howie, where our support of his choice is unwavering, we're Team Howie no matter what he does. On the surface it may appear to be weighted in one direction, but I have to disagree when it comes to the fact that we frown upon it across the board -- that's just not true. People make judgements based mostly on what they (a) experience (b) know (c) hear about. We're all learning, we're rolling with the industry and sometimes the trade side of it does disappoint us (aka Hydra), but sometimes the indie side disappoints us too (aka head-on-a-swivel algo changes and the limiting of free promotions by cutting associate benefits).

I wish you the best and hope you come back around someday.


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## Zelah Meyer

I've started threads asking questions and had no responses too, but since I usually Google something to death before starting a thread, I put that down to nobody else knowing the answer either!


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## Sapphire

Zelah Meyer said:


> I've started threads asking questions and had no responses too, but since I usually Google something to death before starting a thread, I put that down to nobody else knowing the answer either!


Or sometimes a question is asked at a time that those with answers are busy elsewhere (maybe writing?). By the time they come on board, the thread is buried on page 3 and totally overlooked. If one doesn't get an answer, it may be a good idea to bump the thread during a different part of the day.


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## Mathew Reuther

One of the things I try to do, when I'm not girding myself for war  , is to answer as many questions and offer as many opinions as I can. I spend a lot of time dropping back a couple of pages to see if there's not a blurb or a cover or a question about how to work with distributing to a specific outlet, or anything else which might need a response. A large number of my posts are responses to threads soliciting advice or opinions, but I can't manage to answer them all.

And that plays into the "there's a whole world out there" thing which was said earlier. Yes, there's a big world out there in KB land. But the very first post I made out there got me reamed by a reader with thousands of posts. Not because I violated a rule, but because they didn't agree with me. So if you combine the fact that I can't answer everything asked already in the WC, and the fact that I had a bad experience out in the general area, I don't post out there much at all. In here are my colleagues from afar, and a load of opportunity to learn and grow. Out there is just an opportunity to get (as is so, so prevalent across the net the second you admit to being a writer) accused of self-promotion (so I only maintain my series thread) and potentially ruffle more feathers. (As I am wont to do. You know, being me and all.)

Sometimes when I ask a question I get a single answer (thanks Masha for the thoughts on my blurb for The Partners) if I'm lucky. I chalk it up to the fact that sometimes the answer to something is not really known, some people have no real opinions on certain subjects, and threads in the WC can move quickly. On really active days I am sure many people are hovering on page one and in their new replies interface. Plus, I hear some people actually write. (I am not one of those people lately. Maybe today.) I never put it down to not being cool enough, or not being worthy, or even having annoyed people. (Most folks are sensible enough to leave arguments in the thread they started in, after all!) Besides, if I answer threads about loads of different things no matter who is asking the question, I am sure that others do as well. So I'd never think anyone was being deliberately ignored. It's just something that happens.

I find Terrence's thought about the balance of former/ex-aspiring-tradpub vs. indie ratio interesting. Not sure how large of an influence it is, but there's likely to be at least a shift in the currents. But I would say that not every indie author is concerned with today. My goal is to be making a living wage in a decade. That is seriously what I want. Not tomorrow. Not at the end of this year. But in 2023 when my kids are high school age, I want to be making a normal salary on a regular basis while producing a sane amount of work and doing a reasonable amount of promotion. And my goal after that is to grow it to where by the time I "retire" (which I won't) I'm pulling in enough to keep us fine until we kick off. So yeah, I have modest goals. Even the production end. I want to write 50+ novels. Seems to me that I can manage it.

As for his remarks on authority, that's how I've lived my entire life. Always questioning the status quo. Always wondering what was no longer relevant. Stop for a minute and wonder at how much you learned when you were in school that is no longer true. When I want to feel weird I go to a science museum. Seems an awful lot like half the things I was taught are wrong now. I find it fascinating and disconcerting. So I've always tried to move with the times. That's why I'm not submitting to tradpub. Not because I don't believe I would make it (I have in-trad-industry friends who are sure I would) but because I believe we've hit a turning point where stories like Hugh's are going to be more and more prevalent. Where proven indie success is going to become the route into trad. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have money ticking up now from items I wrote this year, and (almost?) nobody in tradpub can say that yet.


----------



## Rayne Book Covers

I can't thank Patria (author of Zerrin) enough for introducing me to this forum. I have been able to make my dream of earning my living from art come true because of you guys.

The mods do a really great job and I hope the veterans stick around too. This is definitely one of the best forums out there for authors and even for other book related service providers.


----------



## Anne Frasier

Sapphire said:


> Or sometimes a question is asked at a time that those with answers are busy elsewhere (maybe writing?). By the time they come on board, the thread is buried on page 3 and totally overlooked. If one doesn't get an answer, it may be a good idea to bump the thread during a different part of the day.


I def think this happens a lot. it's just a timing thing, but hard not to take it personally.

also, i think this place is just so massive that it takes a long time to begin to feel that you know some of the posters. i wonder how many people pass through here in a single day. i've been a member for quite a while now, but i still get the sense that there's this core group of people who know one another really well and everybody else is on the fringe. but in actuality, i don't think that's true.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

I'm trying to think who's still around from when I first started (11/5/200. Harvey, of course, Leslie, Jeff, Mike, Betsy and Ann (I think). Who else?


----------



## Hudson Owen

I post here mostly to get information on how to do things, especially from younger writers, who are more fluent in the technology.  Because I'm older, I sometimes provide a different, more traditional viewpoint--you can take it or leave it.  And because I'm older, I fight less and try and help people more--most people need mercy at one time or another in life, as I've learned from jobs among the living and the dying.  I shun provocation.  I just don't have time for it.  That will do for now.  Enjoy your evening, Eastern Time.


----------



## ◄ Jess ►

Mathew Reuther said:


> As for his remarks on authority, that's how I've lived my entire life. Always questioning the status quo. Always wondering what was no longer relevant. Stop for a minute and wonder at how much you learned when you were in school that is no longer true. When I want to feel weird I go to a science museum. Seems an awful lot like half the things I was taught are wrong now. I find it fascinating and disconcerting.


Have you seen this video? Your post reminds me of it.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I'm trying to think who's still around from when I first started (11/5/200. Harvey, of course, Leslie, Jeff, Mike, Betsy and Ann (I think). Who else?


December 2008 for me, but I was more than 2 years from publishing then. I joined because I was interested in the K1 and trying to decide whether to trust Amazon to continue supporting it. I'd been burned with the Rocket Ebook (loved the device, but there weren't enough books for it, most were overpriced, and the company sold out to another outfit that didn't support it).

This is the place I first saw posts that Amazon was allowing people to put up their own books right beside those of the big pubs - for free! Didn't believe it at first and will forever be grateful I saw that info in the winter of 2009-10 and got in gear with my already written books.

And back to the original thoughts of this thread - do most KBers read most threads? I come here every day, but I scan thread subjects and only open and read maybe 3-6. I've gotten to where I skip most of those with mysterious subjects (i.e., "Look at This") and many more with subjects that don't pique my interest. Like that first paragraph of a novel, the subject line has to hook me. I often miss the contentious threads, then see the lock and depending on the subject may get curious about what happened - or not. Reading a few threads every day makes me feel part of the community but keeping up on more than that would be more than I could manage.

Edit: As usual my math is dreadful - December 2008 until published in February 2010, only more than one year.


----------



## Thumper

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I'm trying to think who's still around from when I first started (11/5/200. Harvey, of course, Leslie, Jeff, Mike, Betsy and Ann (I think). Who else?


I'm still here, but lurking way more than I ever thought I would.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Thumper said:


> I'm still here, but lurking way more than I ever thought I would.


Unlurk yourself, Thumper! I enjoy your posts - - and your books.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Harvey said:


> Unlurk yourself, Thumper! I enjoy your posts - - and your books.


Me, too.


----------



## intinst

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I'm trying to think who's still around from when I first started (11/5/200. Harvey, of course, Leslie, Jeff, Mike, Betsy and Ann (I think). Who else?


My (very) unofficial count of members before 1/1/09 who are still active is about 60, half of which were here before 11/5/08. Many do not (and never did) post a great deal but check out KB on a regular basis.


----------



## dalya

I can't speak for the others who disappear, but I can see how it happens. We only have so much time in a day, and as you get more readers, you end up chatting with them more, on FB and by email, etc. So, your time gets split between more places. I don't even have that many fans now, so I can only imagine how busy it must be for some of our rockstar authors!


----------



## Gertie Kindle

intinst said:


> My (very) unofficial count of members before 1/1/09 who are still active is about 60, half of which were here before 11/5/08. Many do not (and never did) post a great deal but check out KB on a regular basis.


Interesting. Thanks for checking that out. I should look at the stats myself. I'm Member #390, I think.


----------



## folly

I haven't been on here lately because I have tried to give up some of my addictions for Lent - personal fb page, WC and obsessively checking sales numbers- progressively getting less successful at it I will admit.

I will also admit that it has been somewhat easy giving up the Writer's Cafe for this time because I felt the tone had changed. I have loved this place for the last year I have been a member posting rarely, reading every day. Lately, it seemed to me the tone or energy of the place had grown harsher for some reason. I was not really interested in analyzing the reason. I just knew that it wasn't what I wanted to be taking in, so it was not too hard to avoid. (I guess that doesn't count much for self-sacrifice 

I hope it is just a blip in the road because I would not be doing what I do if it weren't for the information and support here.

I applaud Harvey and the moderators and have always been thankful for them. I am grateful for the expectations they have for the forum.

Missy


----------



## vrabinec

Dalya said:


> I can't speak for the others who disappear, but I can see how it happens.


If you disappear, we're hunting you down.


----------



## Debra Purdy Kong

EC Sheedy said:


> Glad of the gentle reminder. This is a great board!
> 
> Thanks to you, Harvey, and our illustrious moderators for keeping it great.


Ditto. Moderators are an important part of Kindleboards, and I'm glad you're all here.


----------



## dalya

vrabinec said:


> If you disappear, we're hunting you down.


I would have some sort of psychological problem if I thought the decrease in overall sweetness had any correlation to my not being on here all hours of the day, right? 

ETA: Don't answer that. Rhetorical.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Dalya said:


> I would have some sort of psychological problem if I thought the decrease in overall sweetness had any correlation to my not being on here all hours of the day, right?
> 
> ETA: Don't answer that. Rhetorical.


Is it my imagination or did the halo recently disappear from your avatar? Just making you aware.


----------



## dalya

Harvey said:


> Is it my imagination or did the halo recently disappear from your avatar? Just making you aware.


My halo totally fell off! It was an imaginary halo, anyway. Like a mass hallucination.


----------



## unkownwriter

I don't get in here as much, due to family issues and trying to get some writing done, but I try to swing through a couple of times every day and keep up with the boards. 

Usually, by the time I get to a thread, it's either been hit by a cattle prod, or the question was answered. I do try to put in a congrats note when appropriate.

The tone of any board changes over time. I've seen it happen here, but usually it settles back down as the trouble makers move on, or learn to fit in and accept the forum decorum. 

As for Ben's comments, I don't see what he's talking about. Signatures are a static thing, and can be turned off if you don't want to see them. Selling posts are limited to the Bazaar, not allowed here.

I still love the WC, Harvey, Betsy and Ann. I've been reading here nearly three years now, and I think this is the best-run forum around for indies. I've gotten more help here than I could have ever imagined. 

The only thing that really gets me, is it never fails that we are reminded the Writer's Cafe is the red-headed stepchild of the Kboards.


----------



## Edward C. Patterson

Great reminder, Harvey. I'd also remind authors (as Betsey pointed out), everything you say here can be googled and goes to brand. What happens in Vegas, doesn't stay in Vegas. Readers read authors not books, and brands can shine or stink — author's choice. One word from Oprah cuts both ways.   The best axes to grind are within our work and much more productive, because it's baked in the loaf and not stuck on the wrapper. It is also better considered and hopefully presented well. 

Anyway, as a long time poster here, this board is one of the few managed well with thousands of worthy contributorts, each providing valuable dialog and support, plus lovely recipes, stunning art, fun games and a general blessing of good wishes and comraderie. Sure they will be stale raisins in the bread, but . . . they're either easily ingested or spit out.  

Edward C. Patterson


----------



## Sapphire

A couple of thoughts:
1- I love the signatures at the bottom of the posts. They help me to know the author better.
2- I also enjoy threads on writing craft or technique. They aren't black and white issues so I don't understand why they die out so quickly. These are ideas from which we can learn a great deal by discussing the ins and outs, the negatives and positives, the interesting and the boring....etc. etc. etc.


----------



## KBoards Admin

I too would like to see more "craft" threads in the Writer's Cafe. (Both as admin here and as a neophyte author.)

Let me know if there's some way that I or the mods can foster that. It probably has to promulgate naturally, but if there's some way we can help with it, I'm eager to do so.


----------



## Anne Frasier

i've noticed that craft threads can get hostile. not sure why.  they sometimes turn into a domination by someone who thinks there's only one way to do it.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Anne Frasier said:


> i've noticed that craft threads can get hostile. not sure why. they sometimes turn into a domination by someone who thinks there's only one way to do it.


Hmm, thank you for that, Anne. That is one thing we might be able to help with, to curtail those types of comments so that the craft discussions are productive and useful.

To all: please do report those types of post when they occur, so we can review and moderate if need be.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Harvey said:


> I too would like to see more "craft" threads in the Writer's Cafe. (Both as admin here and as a neophyte author.)
> 
> Let me know if there's some way that I or the mods can foster that. It probably has to promulgate naturally, but if there's some way we can help with it, I'm eager to do so.


I don't know if you're allowed to start a thread, Harvey  but I'm sure Ann or Betsy can familiarize you with the rules. <gertieducksthecattleprod AND thebigboot> Anyway, maybe once a week or so, you could start a thread on a certain aspect of writing and invite comments.

Might not work right away, but once we get used to seeing them pop up, more people might join in. Just a thought.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Great minds think alike, Gertie.  I always tell people, if there aren't enough of the threads you want to see, start one!

Betsy


----------



## KBoards Admin

Good advice, Gertie! 

(And Ann and Betsy have no hesitation to keep me in line when I've posted about my books. It's outright insubordination, I tell you!)


----------



## intinst

Harvey said:


> Good advice, Gertie!
> 
> (And Ann and Betsy have no hesitation to keep me in line when I've posted about my books. It's outright insubordination, I tell you!)


They're just following your instructions from your avatar: "Love all, moderate all."


----------



## KBoards Admin

intinst said:


> They're just following your instructions from your avatar: "Love all, moderate all."


True!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Harvey knows I'll moderate anyone...ask my co-mods, LOL!

Betsy


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Yay, craft threads. Good times ahead.  

Can't wait for the "Passive Voice" and the "Headhopping" ones.


----------



## vrabinec

Andrew Ashling said:


> Yay, craft threads. Good times ahead.
> 
> Can't wait for the "Passive Voice" and the "Headhopping" ones.


Still holding my breath. Turning blue here. Someone hurryyyy!


----------



## Kathleen Valentine

I am really happy to read this thread. I admit in recent weeks I've been reading but not posting nearly as much because of the predictable few who seem to always be looking for a confrontation. It's tiresome and childish. If I want reliable snark, there are lots of other places to find it.

Thank you, Harvey, Betsy, and Ann. Civility is hard to come by these days, thanks for maintaining your standards.


----------



## Victoria Champion

Harvey said:


> Hmm, thank you for that, Anne. That is one thing we might be able to help with, to curtail those types of comments so that the craft discussions are productive and useful.
> 
> To all: please do report those types of post when they occur, so we can review and moderate if need be.


I posted in a craft thread about the use of adverbs. I was thoroughly stomped by two prolific posters here (which I ended up putting on ignore). It was awful enough that other posters had to defend me. Over adverbs! But I almost left KB over that. I am hesitant to post in craft threads now because it gives me a bad feeling. I do read them and bookmark them, though.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Victoria Champion said:


> I posted in a craft thread about the use of adverbs. I was thoroughly stomped by two prolific posters here (which I ended up putting on ignore). It was awful enough that other posters had to defend me. Over adverbs! But I almost left KB over that. I am hesitant to post in craft threads now because it gives me a bad feeling. I do read them and bookmark them, though.


Were you for or against? I'm for. And I absolutely love passive voice.


----------



## Victoria Champion

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Were you for or against? I'm for. And I absolutely love passive voice.


It was in reference to Stephen King's views in On Writing. I personally think all words in the English language are there to be used as tools by the writer.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Victoria Champion said:


> It was in reference to Stephen King's views in On Writing. I personally think all words in the English language are there to be used as tools by the writer.


Oh, yes. The "pernicious weeds" crowd. I agree with you, although I don't use as many as I used to.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Victoria Champion said:


> I posted in a craft thread about the use of adverbs. I was thoroughly stomped by two prolific posters here (which I ended up putting on ignore). It was awful enough that other posters had to defend me. Over adverbs! But I almost left KB over that. I am hesitant to post in craft threads now because it gives me a bad feeling. I do read them and bookmark them, though.


Thank you. Don't give up. It is true that some have trouble making their points without making others feel belittled. We have a special posting vacation planned for them, which will give them time to attend charm school. 

But many on this board have the knack / skill / sensitivity that enables them to make points and counterpoints without alienating others.


----------



## Susanne O

Maybe it's because this forum is so big  that these things occur?

The Writers Pub is small, intimate and probably the friendliest place on the Internet right now.

And we intend to keep it that way....


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Victoria Champion said:


> It was in reference to Stephen King's views in On Writing. I personally think all words in the English language are there to be used as tools by the writer.


I agree. But then again, I like to live dangerously, and I can already hear the villagers grumbling.


----------



## David J Normoyle

But if you have a writer's craft thread on adverbs, the general advice is going to be to avoid them as much as possible. That's the advice in practically all the craft books etc.

Edit(I guess that didn't have a point): I mean that many craft books agree on a great many things, but I find that here, there's never agreement on any piece of craft advice for writers. So most craft threads dissolve into arguing with no advice coming out of them.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

David J Normoyle said:


> But if you have a writer's craft thread on adverbs, the general advice is going to be to avoid them as much as possible. That's the advice in practically all the craft books etc.
> 
> Edit(I guess that didn't have a point): I mean that many craft books agree on a great many things, but I find that here, there's never agreement on any piece of craft advice for writers. So most craft threads dissolve into arguing with no advice coming out of them.


Maybe that is because you have a lot of original writers here with strong convictions. (Let's call it that: strong convictions.)

I think I learned most from these kind of threads, even though, most of the time, I didn't change my opinion - much. But at the very least they forced me to defend my opinion, if only to myself. In other words: they made me think why I did certain things one way and not another.


----------



## vrabinec

My problem with craft threads is that I taylor my philosophy to each individual sentence, and I never think of "rules" when I'm writing the sentence. I basically use the force. Does it sound good, does it convey what I want, does it fit into the flow, is it either interesting or a crucial subset to something that's interesting, etc...? I could argue for or against all kinds of things and then go home that night and do completely the opposite. I think craft treads are necessary for beginners, but there comes a time when we all know the "rules", it's just a matter of applying them in a way that will be intertaining, and THAT is something a craft thread can't really capture, because we will all be entertaining in our own way. Yeah, I love to read them, and I'll weigh in on the two or three topics I'm fairly comfortable with, but their invariably generalized and that leads to flase arguments because we're arguing apples and oranges. I think that once you've grown beyong the craft threads, then head to head critique in very small groups of each other's specific works is the most helpful thing, and that's not something we can really do here.


----------



## Anne Frasier

Victoria Champion said:


> It was in reference to Stephen King's views in On Writing. I personally think all words in the English language are there to be used as tools by the writer.


yep, that's exactly the kind of craft behavior i'm talking about. my way...or my way.


----------



## Nathan Elliott

Victoria Champion said:


> (which I ended up putting on ignore)


Wait. There's an ignore feature at KB? Or do you mean that you just make a mental note not to read their comments? Sorry to be dense, but I've looked in what I thought were the logical places and did not see any ignore function.


----------



## vrabinec

Anne Frasier said:


> my way...or my way.


----------



## Victoria Champion

Nathan Elliott said:


> Wait. There's an ignore feature at KB? Or do you mean that you just make a mental note not to read their comments? Sorry to be dense, but I've looked in what I thought were the logical places and did not see any ignore function.


There is an ignore function. Profile>Personal Message Options


----------



## Cherise

Suggestion:

One way craft threads might be more productive is if, rather than post our opinions, we are asked to post resources that explain various craft questions. Sure, some will post their own blog posts, but so what. That is likely to add more light than heat.


----------



## vrabinec

Victoria Champion said:


> There is an ignore function. Profile>Personal Message Options


Wow, that's cool. I'm putting Betsy on mine so I can't see her warnings.


----------



## Anne Frasier

vrabinec said:


>


----------



## Nathan Elliott

Victoria Champion said:


> There is an ignore function. Profile>Personal Message Options


Oh, okay. I'd seen that. But that's just for PMs, right? I thought (hoped) you meant that you could filter out their comments in the threads. Thanks, though.


----------



## Victoria Champion

Nathan Elliott said:


> Oh, okay. I'd seen that. But that's just for PMs, right? I thought (hoped) you meant that you could filter out their comments in the threads. Thanks, though.


It also filters out comments in threads.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Cherise Kelley said:


> Suggestion:
> 
> One way craft threads might be more productive is if, rather than post our opinions, we are asked to post resources that explain various craft questions. Sure, some will post their own blog posts, but so what. That is likely to add more light than heat.


That would be interesting. But many of the disagreements revolve around descriptivists and prescriptavists. In the big picture, they compliment each other. Posting references is buttressing the prescriptivist side.

People are challenging authority and conventional wisdom. There will be conflict. Seeing both sides might help one decide how they will proceed.

Stepping further out on a limb, I'd suggest the popular cultural image of a writer is being challenged. That is seen by some as an attack on their self-image.


----------



## Nathan Elliott

Victoria Champion said:


> It also filters out comments in threads.


Awesome. I had no idea. Thank you!


----------



## Nick Endi Webb

Cherise Kelley said:


> Suggestion:
> 
> One way craft threads might be more productive is if, rather than post our opinions, we are asked to post resources that explain various craft questions. Sure, some will post their own blog posts, but so what. That is likely to add more light than heat.


I love seeing others' opinions. It's just when some oh-so-knowledgeable people start talking as if theirs is the best opinion, and then dominate the conversation and not stepping aside after they've given their two cents.

As to the quiet death that many craft threads seem to suffer-- I really do read and appreciate them even if I don't contribute as much. I'm making a resolution to at least bump them to keep them a bit more visible.


----------



## Shelley K

Nathan Elliott said:


> Awesome. I had no idea. Thank you!


It is a beautiful thing.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

vrabinec said:


> Wow, that's cool. I'm putting Betsy on mine so I can't see her warnings.


Why do you think I have the cattle prod? 

And yes, the ignore feature works for posts, too. You'll be able to see that the ignored poster posted, but have the option as to whether to see the post or not. So you'll have to be strong. 

Betsy


----------



## JRTomlin

Andrew Ashling said:


> Yay, craft threads. Good times ahead.
> 
> Can't wait for the "Passive Voice" and the "Headhopping" ones.


Nah, it's not until we get to "show, don't tell" that blood will flow. 

I started to explain the difference in "rules" and "advice" which a lot of people on both sides of these discussions seem to have difficulty understanding, but instead I'll go eat some chocolate and play a game.


----------



## Cherise

JRTomlin said:


> I started to explain the difference in "rules" and "advice" which a lot of people on both sides of these discussions seem to have difficulty understanding, but instead I'll go eat some chocolate and play a game.


OK, what if we went ahead and:

1) made a craft sub-board that only the mods could create threads in, and

2) the mods created exactly one thread for each of these questions (adverbs, head hopping, show don't tell...) and

3) made it clear there are really no rules on most of this, but there are at least two schools of thought: prescriptive and descriptive?


----------



## KBoards Admin

^ There's some merit in that, but I think I'd prefer to see the craft threads coming straight from our authors. And, at least for now, bubbling in with the rest of the WC posts. 

It may be a challenge... but I can't see a reason why we couldn't have rich discussions on this craft that so many of us love. A tip might be to have writers begin each reply to a craft post with "What works for me is..." -- and not try to make blanket provoking statements.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

But there are rules. These fall on the prescriptivist side. The conflict arises as descriptivists push the boundaries. To varying degrees, they claim usage trumps the rules. All those reference and writing books are full of rules. 

The conflict is part of the natural evolution of the language. Thats where the balance between the two comes from.  It can't be suppressed.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Terrence OBrien said:


> But there are rules.


In grammar, there may be. But in style? I doubt it.


----------



## Guest

I'm afraid to post in craft threads due to my incredibly simple one-step-above-grade-school level prose that my giant ego can't take the strain of having criticized...


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Andrew Ashling said:


> In grammar, there may be. But in style? I doubt it.


I suppose we would have to look at the books to see how they are presented. Would adverb usage fall under style? How about attribution? We find this stuff under lists titled something like "Ten Rules For Writers."

Then we could have a rousing debate over the rule for determining what is a rule.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Cherise Kelley said:


> OK, what if we went ahead and:
> 
> 1) made a craft sub-board that only the mods could create threads in, and
> 
> 2) the mods created exactly one thread for each of these questions (adverbs, head hopping, show don't tell...) and
> 
> 3) made it clear there are really no rules on most of this, but there are at least two schools of thought: prescriptive and descriptive?


This is a better idea than my idea of opening up the KB mud wrestling arena to answer these types of questions....

Betsy


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This is a better idea than my idea of opening up the KB mud wrestling arena to answer these types of questions....
> 
> Betsy


Thank goodness. Mud is definitely not my color.


----------



## telracs

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This is a better idea than my idea of opening up the KB mud wrestling arena to answer these types of questions....
> 
> Betsy


mud wrestling? then we'd really need a popcorn smilie.

and rules on betting....


----------



## Andrew Ashling

glutton said:


> I'm afraid to post in craft threads due to my incredibly simple one-step-above-grade-school level prose that my giant ego can't take the strain of having criticized...


Solution: call your prose Hemingwayesque.



Terrence OBrien said:


> I suppose we would have to look at the books to see how they are presented. Would adverb usage fall under style? How about attribution? We find this stuff under lists titled something like "Ten Rules For Writers."
> Then we could have a rousing debate over the rule for determining what is a rule.


That would actually be interesting.

As I see it some grammar rules are indeed rules. If you want to convey that something took place in the past, relative to what happens in the present of the story, you'd better follow the rules or you will not be understood.

Some grammar rules seem to be optional, some are in flux. Are they still ironclad rules?

As to style, most of those rules seem crutches to me. If you're not certain you can pull it off, you'd better use a crutch. Moreover, I get the impression that a lot of those so-called rules are designed to make a story more fit for making a movie out of it. Hence the call for keeping the action flowing and cutting out (seemingly) extraneous characters.

But these are just some thoughts and as I said, I'd find it an interesting topic to debate.


----------



## Mathew Reuther

T.L., I appreciate that you have strong feelings about these things.

But I will point out that while having success is an indicator of many things, it is not an indicator of always being right when giving advice.

In a way, when you expect your advice to be taken because you've had more success than others, it's just as bad as people you decry as thinking that everything should be done their way all the time.

In short: it doesn't actually help the situation any.

As Betsy said earlier: if someone ignores your advice, that is (potentially, anyway) their loss.

But if you read/listen to interviews from successful (and I mean the top of the top) authors, almost invariably they will say "I wish I had followed/not followed x/y advice..."

So as writers continue to join the scene and as they come onto KB or wherever else they wander to talk about the craft and business of the profession, they will repeat the same mistakes of those who came before them. They will heed bad advice. Ignore good advice, and generally make a mess of things. And eventually some of them will have moderate success, and others will truly break out.

Besides, no matter how successful anyone is, there's always someone more successful. Well. Except for maybe Rowling. By your argument we should all memorize every piece of advice she ever spouted. 

(ETA: for those looking to ascribe reasoning to weirdness of late, Mercury just came out of retrograde and the effects will remain for another couple of weeks. So my astrologer friends say. Personally, I just believe that everything runs in cycles.)


----------



## Caddy

What I find interesting when people discuss rules is that there are usually exceptions by authors who HAVE made it big. There are well known authors who have made a lot of money head hopping. There are well known authors who have made it big not using any capital letters. Some cut up their sentences and recontructed them into sentences that on the surface make no sense. Rules can be broken, but it seems like if anyone suggests that here a flock of angry birds comes along and digs their eyes out. Or suggests that because they aren't as successful as some on here that they shouldn't even contribute to that conversation.

I remember reading a thread where someone said to check the sales of a poster. If that poster wasn't selling well they had little to offer in regard to advice. How arrogant. We all know of books that have made it big that aren't written well. We also know of books that are quite good but haven't had luck shine on them yet. Does that mean that if all of a sudden the book sells their advice now is better? 

I find I don't often comment nearly as much anymore  on craft threads because of that. I happen to think part of the beauty of being indie is taking chances and breaking rules in a way that just might work, but I a) don't enjoy being talked down to because of it and b) am not in the Top 100 so what do I know?

One thing I DO know is this: If everyone followed the rules in art (and writing is art) we would still be looking at large, dull relgious paintings. Thank God for the artists who dared to break the rules. Because of that we have Impressionism, Cubism, Modernism, and endless other art that lives and breathes and changes. Art is change. Without change, we all create the same thing. Those same people who dared were banned from the Salon. No matter. They started their own salons,and just look where it got them.   I dare say that writing needs to live and breathe, too. Sure, lots will break rules in a way that renders their work unreadable. But some will break rules and rise to the top, simply because they dared.


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## Mathew Reuther

Well said, Caddy.

Viva la difference. 

(And yes, I will tell people that something should be a certain way. But part of being an artist is IGNORING ME if you feel that your art works the way you do it! People will offer opinions, and we just have to decide which ones we're going to take to heart.)


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## Caddy

[quoteAnd yes, I will tell people that something should be a certain way. But part of being an artist is IGNORING ME if you feel that your art works the way you do it! People will offer opinions, and we just have to decide which ones we're going to take to heart.)][/quote]

Yes, indeed, indeed. When people ask questions, we must tell them what is generally true. What is unfortunate is when it is told in a distainful way, or when someone says they do it a different way, they are talked down to.  Ignoring is a great trait if you are an artist. But, as Picasso said, you must FIRST KNOW the rules so that you know how to best break them.


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## Mathew Reuther

Yes. Absolutely. So sad there's no like/kudos system in KB.


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## dalya

I think we should all be really honest about why we're here.

It's to avoid doing our writing. Right?

Craft threads remind me of the writing I'm not doing. It's more fun to make fun of ... Konrath or whoever we're talking about that day.


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## Nathan Elliott

Mathew Reuther said:


> T.L., I appreciate that you have strong feelings about these things.
> 
> But I will point out that while having success is an indicator of many things, it is not an indicator of always being right when giving advice.


I in turn will point out that she did not say that people who have not sold loads of books should not be listened to or that their advice is faulty. She also did not say that people who have sold loads are automatically right. She said:



> There are certain people here who feel like if things aren't done exactly the way they think they should be, things shouldn't be done and you're an idiot for trying. ... But when people are having a civilized discussion and one or two people take off, go nuts, and try and ram their beliefs down everyone's throats, that's not good times. And it has happened too much lately. That, along with the whole "you're an idiot, you don't know what you're talking about, your opinion isn't wanted, and you're a Big Ol' Meanie!" attitude is driving people away.


I think it has to do with civility, consideration, and respect.

An increasing number of people here are starting to make so much noise that it is getting hard to hear the actual useful information amid the noise. Offering ideas is always welcome. But being so loud that others can't hear themselves think is less welcome, at least as far as I am concerned. I think TL was noticing that the loudest often lack experience at selling books. It is not that they have no right to opinions, but their theories on selling books have not been proven yet in the real world. So they should probably be slow to demand that people agree with them as a matter of faith. And they should also be understanding if people don't have the time to rigorously pick apart their arguments for page after page after page. If Stephen Hawking says he thinks the first law of thermodynamics is wrong, I'll be skeptical, but I'll listen. If Joe Smith says it, well, I have other things to do. It isn't that Joe has no right to an opinion, but I need to filter the river of ideas somehow, and track record is a reasonable starting place. If Joe Smith starts shouting about his theory so much that I can't hear the people I want to hear, or worse yet, starts insulting the people I want to hear, then I am gonna reach for that new-found (to me) ignore button. That silences Joe's noise for me, but there is still the problem that the people I want to hear might get fed up and stop sharing their knowledge. That would make me sad.

KB and the Passive Voice are the best, most civil, most helpful discussions that I've found. I hope they can stay that way. Thanks to the mods for all they do. We can all help too by thinking and self moderating before we start shouting.


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## Terrence OBrien

> "Hey, you took your dog to McDonald's on your royalties last month? Well, I paid my mortgage payment, and have for the last year, with my royalties. My friend, who you just dismissed, bought a luxury vehicle and paid cash for it. And my other friend, who you made snide remarks to? Yeah, they just signed a movie deal. Whose advise is really more valid here?"


If the advice is good, it should be able to meet a challenge. Doesn't matter if veterans or new people are involved. The ideas have to stand on their own, regardless of who posted them.

The entire independent author phenomenon was a challenge to older ideas, and many very successful people held those ideas.


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## Betsy the Quilter

I think you just let Caddy know you liked it.  Words work fine.  You're a writer, words should be easy.


Betsy


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## Guest

I haven't really noticed who commits the behaviors being referred to, probably because I'm thick-skinned from frequenting much more barbaric forums when stronger insults are tossed around as a matter of course... KB seems incredibly calm by my standards.

I hope I'm not one of the new people known for being rude and overbearing..?


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## Betsy the Quilter

As I said early in this thread, this thread is NOT about individuals....and I'd ask that we not discuss individuals.  This thread is about a general tone and our goals for it.

Thanks.

Betsy


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## WizardofWestmarch

Long time lurker, rare poster (I'm still not to the point I'm willing to hit publish on my work, so I rarely feel like I have much to contribute, but this discussion of crafts thread hits something I went through when I first found this place years ago).

I used to want craft threads to crop up here to go along with all the business discussion that you couldn't find anywhere else. One stop shopping for useful ideas on writing, but without all the fat of fast food. But the more I gathered writing advice from craft books, blogs, podcasts, etc, I came to realize something.

Writing advice is subjective by target audience.

Genre/sub genre is one way to represent this, but not the only one. In general, the rules people tend to spout (with some exceptions, like the adverb one, or show don't tell) tend to be based around what the audience they are going to be targeting tends to like. That is part of the craft of writing, knowing what the expectations will bring to your work are, along with which ones to obey and which ones to ignore to create the desired reaction in your readers.

The problem comes in when you consider a cross-section of writers who hit most if not all major audience categories post here. Romance writers who get the whole HEA ingrained into them from birth, epic fantasy writers who always hear to write tomes, and so on. It's hard to write good advice that works in general on a forum where the advice can't really target even a majority of the people who post here. Too many different people with very different needs for what they create.

Craft books get away with this because it's only you and the author 'interacting' so there can be no wide ranging argument, and in the end the smart writer pulls out the pieces that fit their needs, and throw all the other knowledge away. Bring 3 people with 3 different sets of needs and have them all directly interact, and things get confusing. Multiply that number many fold into what you have with the Writers' Cafe, and... I'm not sure you get much real use out of it.

Personally I'd find it more interesting to see a sticky (I know, another sticky) with solid community suggested links on good places to find information around the pros and cons on topics.

Aaand the forums died when I originally tried to post this. I guess I should go back to lurking!


----------



## Mathew Reuther

Nathan Elliott said:


> I think it has to do with civility, consideration, and respect.


I would note that internally letting yourself get worked up and then either snarking a little or vanishing out of a discussion isn't respectful or civil. You are damning the people in your head for having the audacity to disagree with you, with your fellow successful author, etc. That's not respectful of them. (And new to KB or new to self pub does not mean new to writing. How many authors in history have written for decades before publishing? Many, many, many . . .)

Not to pick on Hugh (he can no doubt take it) but his covers are hardly what most of us would call "pro" and his ebook formatting (for Wool 1 at the very least) leaves something to be desired. His work in terms of "look" was the kind which would draw criticism from those with "pro" covers and "pro" formatting. But despite these things, he's become the big success story (one of, anyway, I don't want to sell others who have had phenomenal 2012/early 2013's short) around KB . . .

So when people offer advice which is the conventional wisdom of "you need to do this" the fact is that they're only speaking in generalities anyway. If (and I suspect it happened at some point) someone said to Hugh "your covers are really amateur" or "you have to indent your paragraphs" then they were absolutely right that conventional wisdom says these things are true.

But he seems to have done just fine ignoring those conventions. (And to this day continues to do just fine, despite Wool 1 still being formatted with no indents, and having that weird little cover that makes no sense, wrapped around a truly interesting novelette.)

So yes, many veterans (and even relative newbies) may have great ideas about how things work and how to do things, but that doesn't make them right, or make it ok for them to get bent out of shape when the writer pushes back and says "no, look, this is my stuff, I'm going to handle things my way."

So yeah, sure, it's about respect. But it also means that veterans need to have more respect for new folks than they do much of the time. Which hey, is much easier said than done, as we all attribute length of time or amount of success to status and wisdom. We're bred to do so. But we can also reason, and ask ourselves: "if someone doesn't take my advice, do I need to be upset about that?"

Hopefully the answer most people can come up with is "no" . . .



> An increasing number of people here are starting to make so much noise that it is getting hard to hear the actual useful information amid the noise.


What is "useful information" to one person, is "noise" to the next.

As for your comments on "but what if so and so isn't heard" boils down to this:

If you want to be heard, say what you think needs to be said. If what you are saying is worthy, other people will often engage on it and refer back to it. The only way to ensure that you're not being paid attention to is to write a conversation off because of some erroneous notion that you won't be listened to anyway. Of course you will be listened to. But that doesn't mean that people will think you're right. And it shouldn't bother anyone when their ideas aren't ones which gain traction. Like books, we put ideas out there and some of them move better than others. *shrug*



Dalya said:


> I think we should all be really honest about why we're here.
> 
> It's to avoid doing our writing. Right?
> 
> Craft threads remind me of the writing I'm not doing. It's more fun to make fun of ... Konrath or whoever we're talking about that day.


Yeah, there's something to that...


----------



## Guest

Well, I'm not asking for anyone to be pointed out - what I'm thinking is that it can be hard for people to realize if what they're doing is being considered rude due to different sensitivity levels, since I was in the aforementioned romance thread and in no way would I have recognized anything posters said as less than civil... it should also be noted that many people who post on forums don't read everything carefully and just throw out a response, while that could be considered rude by some, it's pretty much inevitable (I've started threads myself where I would ask a question and people would answer something entirely different than what I intended, and when I tried to clarify people would continue to answer the same way without reading my clarification post later in the thread - just standard internet practice, it seems).


----------



## Guest

To add to my previous point hopefully without being too specific, I have noticed times when some things that _might_ be what is being referred to as rude, appeared to be genuine attempts to be helpful...


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## philstern

glutton said:


> To add to my previous point hopefully without being too specific, I have noticed times when some things that _might_ be what is being referred to as rude, appeared to be genuine attempts to be helpful...


And there are also times when people are rude under the guise of being helpful. That's very annoying.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

We're never going to be able to guarantee that no one will ever be offended on KB.  The very nature of human beings reading things through their own perceptions means things WILL be misunderstood.  

A poster can't control how someone will take what he or she has written or what someone will read into it.  Posters can only control what they themselves post. 

So we're asking that members stop and think before hitting "Post."  Does what you're posting add to the conversation?  Doesn't have to be golden, just something that moves the conversation along.  Agree, disagree, just do it civilly

And as someone reading the post, we're asking that people not assume insult when none is taken.  If in doubt, ask how the poster meant it rather than jump all over their case.

And, too often, we see members trying to make threads about themselves.  I'm not aiming this at any one person, it happens a lot.  (And not just in internet forums.)  There's a fine line between offering something from one's own work as an example and making every thread about one's self.

Betsy


----------



## DRMarvello

Mathew Reuther said:


> (And yes, I will tell people that something should be a certain way. But part of being an artist is IGNORING ME if you feel that your art works the way you do it! People will offer opinions, and we just have to decide which ones we're going to take to heart.)


I think you just nailed the key to surviving beta readers. 

I've cut way back on my posting here because of the change in tone that Harvey is talking about. I enjoy debating a topic with someone who is genuinely interested in learning something from the debate, but that is too often not the case. Sarcasm, condescension, and derision are far too common. It's amazing how far someone can go without actually treading into the "personal attack" zone. I come here to learn. I come here to share what I've learned. For the most part, that is what I find in the other members too. But we definitely have a crowd who seem to delight in making you feel bad while they tell you how they disagree with you. That's not unusual, and it may not be particularly offensive to most people. In the end, I guess it all works out; the people who do find it offensive just leave.

I really like the idea of craft threads, but I cringe at the thought of posting in one. I can too easily imagine posting an opinion and being blasted for it. If we do get more craft threads, I'll probably lurk for a while and see if it turns into a bloodbath before commenting. That's kind of the way I'm approaching KB in general now.


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## Lynn McNamee

Betsy the Quilter said:


> As I said early in this thread, this thread is NOT about individuals....and I'd ask that we not discuss individuals. This thread is about a general tone and our goals for it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Betsy


Oh, bummer! I really thought this thread was about me. 

Just kidding. 

I have stepped over the line occasionally. I truly don't mean to offend, but like everyone, I sometimes let emotions get the best of me. 

Hey, mods... you should see all the posts I write that never see the light of day. I've probably written an entire novel's worth of words that I end just deleting instead of hitting Post. I'm pretty certain the world, or at least this forum, is better for my restraint.


----------



## vrabinec

Betsy the Quilter said:


> So we're asking that members stop and think before hitting "Post."


If I did that, it would eliminate 99% of my posts.


----------



## Nathan Elliott

Mathew Reuther said:


> I would note that internally letting yourself get worked up and then either snarking a little or vanishing out of a discussion isn't respectful or civil.


I am not really sure what/who you are referring to, but I often get the impression that people drop out due to time constraints and that others take that as something that it isn't. People can't always stick around as long as one person may want them to. Sometimes they come here to quickly read and catch up on any important developments, not to talk. Most have writing to do, right? 



> What is "useful information" to one person, is "noise" to the next.
> 
> As for your comments on "but what if so and so isn't heard" boils down to this:
> 
> If you want to be heard, say what you think needs to be said.


I think this is the disconnect between two camps of people here. Some want to be heard. Others want to learn. The ones who want to be heard can make such a volume of text on one point that those who want to learn get tired of reading about that one idea for pages and pages. Yes, they can try to skip it, but lately it feels like this is getting to be more and more of a chore. There should be a balance. People should feel free to speak up. I hope I don't sound like I think only an anointed few should comment. My feeling, though, is that the pendulum has swung too far toward people speaking rather than listening. But KB isn't for my exclusive use, so everyone can form their own opinion on that one.



> The only way to ensure that you're not being paid attention to is to write a conversation off because of some erroneous notion that you won't be listened to anyway. Of course you will be listened to. But that doesn't mean that people will think you're right. And it shouldn't bother anyone when their ideas aren't ones which gain traction.


Speaking for myself, I don't care how many people listen to me. I come here mainly to learn from others. If I throw an idea out and it doesn't gain traction, I let it sink.(*) I really don't care. It is more that I am fearful for the health of the discussions on here. And whether the people with experience and results will still take the time to share if it seems like the process is no longer working or is becoming too inefficient.

(*) At least, this is what I try to do. I don't really feel like going through my posting history to see whether I really do. I think you should clearly state an idea, maybe clear up any misunderstandings about it, and then let it go. If people don't listen, then they don't. It isn't your job to convince them, IMHO.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

vrabinec said:


> If I did that, it would eliminate 99% of my posts.


Any possible response to this would be "unmoderatorly" as Ann says.


Betsy


----------



## Mathew Reuther

Nathan Elliott said:


> I am not really sure what/who you are referring to, but I often get the impression that people drop out due to time constraints and that others take that as something that it isn't. People can't always stick around as long as one person may want them to. Sometimes they come here to quickly read and catch up on any important developments, not to talk. Most have writing to do, right?


Oh absolutely, and it's more a general "if this is getting you upset enough to cuss someone out in your head, you might have a bit too much invested in the first place" . . .

I'm not meaning everyone should make more time to post. That's counter-productive. 



> I think this is the disconnect between two camps of people here. Some want to be heard. Others want to learn. The ones who want to be heard can make such a volume of text on one point that those who want to learn get tired of reading about that one idea for pages and pages. Yes, they can try to skip it, but lately it feels like this is getting to be more and more of a chore. There should be a balance. People should feel free to speak up. I hope I don't sound like I think only an anointed few should comment. My feeling, though, is that the pendulum has swung too far toward people speaking rather than listening. But KB isn't for my exclusive use, so everyone can form their own opinion on that one.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I don't care how many people listen to me. I come here mainly to learn from others. If I throw an idea out and it doesn't gain traction, I let it sink. I really don't care. It is more that I am fearful for the health of the discussions on here. And whether the people with experience and results will still take the time to share if it seems like the process is no longer working or is becoming too inefficient.


I think to a certain extent you have to put up with the "chaff" as it were. Whatever that means to you as an individual. The posts or ideas that don't do anything for you. And it can be time-consuming, for sure. But limiting the ability to post doesn't do much to aid this, because someone could write 100 of 100 posts in a row that were found valuable to another reader. There's no way to differentiate between that and someone who is managing only 1 in 10 "useful" posts.

Something we also have to accept is that KB and the WC will likely never stop growing. In this thread you have people who can remember when they knew everyone. That will never happen again, and it means adapting to new ways. When there were 10 new threads per day it was easy to read. Now there's a lot more than 10 threads per day. And a lot more than just a handful of replies. There's no way, no matter what individual posters do or so not hit "post" on, to make that a simple thing to sort through.

That alone will be frustrating to people. Particularly if, as I said before, they are seeing the same things they've seen over and over again, and are (justifiably) tired of rehashing.

But like I said earlier. Everything is cycles. You have ebb and flow. Here as well as elsewhere. That does mean that sometimes we're going to have periods where there's more silliness resulting in locks and the like. But there will be smoother patches as well.


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## Lynn McNamee

vrabinec said:


> If I did that, it would eliminate 99% of my posts.


I do stop and think, and yes, it does eliminate a lot of posts.


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## Lynn McNamee

This is pretty hilarious. 

There are two guys "duking it out" in the thread made by the mods asking posters to manage their tones.

They are actually arguing over... well, I'm not sure.

When I was a kid, my mother used to say, "You would argue with a brick wall," and roll her eyes at me. If she could see this thread...


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## Gertie Kindle

Lynn McNamee said:


> This is pretty hilarious.
> 
> There are two guys "duking it out" in the thread made by the mods asking posters to manage their tones.
> 
> They are actually arguing over... well, I'm not sure.
> 
> When I was a kid, my mother used to say, "You would argue with a brick wall," and roll her eyes at me. If she could see this thread...


Isn't this fun? And Betsy's here mopping up the blood on the floor when she should be in the DWTS thread telling me what's going on.


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## Betsy the Quilter

I don't see an argument...yet.


Betsy


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## Mathew Reuther

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I don't see an argument...yet.
> 
> 
> Betsy


Anyone reading an argument into what Nathan and I are discussing is guilty of what Betsy is talking about when she mentions considering if someone was really meant in a certain way.

There's an exchange of ideas happening. Nothing more.

It's not really any wonder people think the WC is a terrible place if a civil discussion is deemed an argument. And, as some of us have already pointed out: that's perhaps part of the problem.

Smile, folks. Enjoy the day. Don't assume people are out to get you.


----------



## Caddy

> I in turn will point out that she did not say that people who have not sold loads of books should not be listened to or that their advice is faulty. She also did not say that people who have sold loads are automatically right.


Nathan, I am not sure if you thought I was referring to T. L., but I wasn't. The post about not paying attention to people who aren't selling happened a few months back and I can't remember who it was. I was simply saying it was ridiculous and one reason I don't comment as often on craft threads as I used to. T.L. has never hit me as a rude person that I can remember.  T.L. sorry if you thought I was referring to your post here.

Glutton, you have never been rude to me either. I believe you expressed concern about if people saw you that way and I can't say I have.

Carry on. Just wanted to make it clear I was not referring to T.L.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

vrabinec said:


> If I did that, it would eliminate 99% of my posts.


And we would all be the poorer for it.


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## WHDean

Three ideas for avoiding craft thread meltdowns.

1. Most OPs get bent out of shape when, for example, they started out mocking something only to find out they were wrong; alternatively, they were just positive that they were right and the thought of being wrong never occurred to them. So here's a bit of advice: _Distance yourself _ from the problem/question/issue so you can save face if things go south. It's not that hard to do. If you're struggling for a way to frame it, go with the tried and true: "I have this friend who thinks that..."

2. Those who join in such threads shouldn't assume it's about them. It amazes how people make the connection between their books and something that comes up on a thread. Like the OP or the other posters were actually covertly referring to their books-in some kind of big inside joke about them. I overheard Dr. Phil say once that you wouldn't worry about what other people thought about you if you knew how little they did.

3. Self-awareness. Don't assert that craft is all opinion, and then complain when people are opininated about it. What else would they be? It's time you realized that "opinionated" is something you call someone who doesn't share yours.


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## WHDean

vrabinec said:


> If I did that, it would eliminate 99% of my posts.


Don't even think of thinking twice.


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## vrabinec

Lynn McNamee said:


> I do stop and think, and yes, it does eliminate a lot of posts.


Yeah, but you have a reputation to maintain. I don't give a shit.


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## Betsy the Quilter

OK, I've apparently missed a couple of posts...locking thread while I read through the last couple of hours' worth.

EDIT:  OK, I've removed a couple of posts--one which definitely was NOT the tone we want here and one responding to it.  I guess it was only a matter of time before a thread about the tone here on KBoards had to be locked.  Thread is unlocked.

Thanks..

Betsy
KBoards Moderator


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## Anne Victory

I've nowhere near read this whole thread, but an amen to Tab.

But you know, and this is a general observation, though it holds true here just as it does elsewhere in life:
Some people ask for "advice" when what they really want is affirmation that they're doing the right thing (morally speaking), the correct thing, or they want their ego propped up. Failure to tell them _what they want to hear_ will quickly make them mad.

Anyway, while I don't always agree with the moderation decisions around here, I do appreciate that it's not an easy job


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## Anne Victory

You know what?  I started to not say anything, because this is water under the bridge, but I'm STILL upset about it and it's a large part of why I stopped frequenting this board so much.  Over a year ago someone plagiarized my website WORD FOR WORD and then posted a thread here on Kindleboards offering their services.  Their thread was not only allowed to stay open but the moderators welcome them to Kindleboards and simultaneously slapped the hands of people who posted in the thread saying that plagiarism isn't cool.  Yeah... I'm still p*ssed about that.  Sorry, but IMO that was a wrong-headed decision--it came across to me and others as if KB was saying they didn't give a rat's behind about intellectual property.  On a child-board dedicated to authors (yes, I get that KB isn't a forum for authors, hence I said child-board.  Also of note, it was a thread pitching services TO authors).   I could be wrong, and I've kept this opinion to myself for quite sometime and well... this seemed as good a place to say it as any.


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## Edward W. Robertson

How are people new to the forum even supposed to know who the "veterans" are, let alone which of them are worth listening to? ;P

Not meant to be an adversarial question; I know the kinds of threads you're talking about. But that kind of seems like an inevitable part of the process. Especially in relation to a profession with such a steep learning curve as indie authordom.


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## jnfr

I'm really sorry to hear that Arkali. I know it's late but I hope it gets sorted out.

I've been online a long time, and I've been a part of many boards as both member and moderator, and this is the only one other than the Well that's really stuck, where I come back over and over even though I'm not getting paid to be here.

And the moderators are the main reason for that, so I can only say "Thank you". And I mean it. This place gives me a lot of both fun and wisdom, nearly every day.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Anne did PM me the thread in question, Harvey, and I admit I could have handled it better at the time, and would probably handle it differently now.  I don't always get it right....  

I'm glad she let us know about how she felt.

Betsy


----------



## Mathew Reuther

T.L. Haddix said:


> Mathew, success does not mean instant ingenuity and Yoda-worthy worship, absolutely not, and that isn't what I meant. I think you know that. I can think of a few people who are not participants on this board who instantly come to mind, who are prime examples of that. That's one of my soapboxes, and I won't go there any further than what I just said. That's clear as mud; sorry. If anyone needs a translation of that paragraph, I'll try.


I get it. I just wanted to point that it's something that can cause friction, really. That's all. SOme people are absolutely brilliant, experienced, and treasures. Which doesn't make them infallible, of course, but it does mean that when they speak it doesn't hurt to at least pause a second longer than you might and really think about it. And I'll be honest with you, every time I read something from you I do my best to consider it, because I am the kind of person who does try and get to know others' accomplishments. (I check out websites and books and the like for most people who either have a lot of posts or who I see frequently. I'm trying to get through reading works from a variety of KB users. But there's so, so many...)



> Anyhow, it isn't that I think everyone should bow before the greatness of the veterans. It's when the veterans are all answering the same question the same way because we've been there, we know, and the majority of the people participating in the thread are aware that we know of whence we speak, and then we are told we are idiots, mean for telling someone their writing needs work, etc., that we're just jealous, that we don't know what we're talking about - that is when I get lit up. And that attitude has become pervasive lately, and is one of the main reasons I avoid coming here as much as I used to and participating as much. I don't have time, don't need the stress. It isn't productive, and isn't really appropriate to stand up in a thread like that and tell someone your resume, because then it's seen as rubbing it in, and that leads to all kinds of levels of "Oh, no, you didn't!"


The designer threads get like that a lot. Their industry is far, far more than writing all about the "where have you worked, what have you designed" . . . with writers it's a bit less expected, and a bit gauche, yes. I certainly don't think anyone should need to recite their resume, but at the same time, newer folks can't know (without doing the extra credit homework like I have been) who has done what. It makes it very difficult for them to look at any given individual and say "oh-ha, this person should be listened to!" Certainly being told one is an idiot isn't overly amusing. But I've seen people take perfectly neutral statements badly as well, so it's not always a case of someone blatantly flipping someone the bird. Sometimes it is a misunderstanding. ANd that's a shame, when it causes someone to think they're being dismissed.



> I'd just like to see some of the know it alls stop for a second and consider who is giving them some of this advice. Stop taking it personally, and try to figure out if maybe, just maybe, the advice is just that - advice - instead of the personal attack so many people try to make it into. And if more than one successful person is telling you that same piece of advice? It might just be valid, as compared to the polar-opposite, 180-degree shift that you're getting from the person calling the veteran a hater. At least ask why the opinion is being offered before reaming the veteran.


Sometimes people just need to not follow advice though. Sometimes they need to make their own mistakes. And that's not something you should feel bad about. Like I said, people will, absolutely, 100% of the time do this. I sincerely doubt you can find an author who has always listened to advice and always been better for it.

I know for sure I've made mistakes and at the time I was making a decision at least one person advised what I now see as being a (potentially) at least better way to deal.



Edward W. Robertson said:


> How are people new to the forum even supposed to know who the "veterans" are, let alone which of them are worth listening to? ;P
> 
> Not meant to be an adversarial question; I know the kinds of threads you're talking about. But that kind of seems like an inevitable part of the process. Especially in relation to a profession with such a steep learning curve as indie authordom.


MAGIC.  Honestly, a new member who hasn't lurked will have a difficult time differentiating. I absolutely agree with you. An even harder time telling who is giving them good advice for their specific situation. (Not all things work equally well for all people, of course!)

***

As for moderator mess-ups, they happen. Nobody is perfect.  Best we can hope for is that they're in the ballpark the majority of the time. And I think they generally are for not being able to read minds.


----------



## Anne Victory

Thanks to Betsy, Harvey, an JNFR   I feel a thousand percent better now


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## Terrence OBrien

> "How are people new to the forum even supposed to know who the "veterans" are, let alone which of them are worth listening to? ;P"


Good point. I'd pay far more attention to what someone says rather than how long they have been saying it.



> "Maybe look at the posters user stats?"


I have lots of posts. I'd consider that the product of an idle mind rather than a briliant one.


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## KBoards Admin

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Anne did PM me the thread in question, Harvey, and I admit I could have handled it better at the time, and would probably handle it differently now. I don't always get it right....
> 
> I'm glad she let us know about how she felt.
> 
> Betsy


Thanks, Betsy, for your gracious reply - - and thank you, Anne, for your graciousness about it too. I'm pleased this got resolved so quickly once Anne brought it up.


----------



## Carol (was Dara)

Arkali said:


> Over a year ago someone plagiarized my website WORD FOR WORD and then posted a thread here on Kindleboards offering their services.


I remember that incident. I don't remember how the mods or anyone else responded but I recall the plagiarism was pretty brazen.

On an unrelated note, because several people have mentioned they sometimes feel the mods are overly strict, I want to throw in an opposite opinion. I've never seen the mods shut down a thread that didn't deserve it (IMO) and I've seen a few go on that I would've locked or even deleted in their place. That's not a complaint, since I know it's impossible to please everybody and they can't fix problems they don't know about or haven't seen yet. I just want to point out Betsy, Ann, and Harvey are extremely longsuffering in a lot of areas involving the WC. We writers can be a passionate, sometimes unruly bunch and we give the mods a heavier workout than the rest of the boards put together. I know I've done my share to add to their work and I often feel badly about that.


----------



## Steve Silkin

Mathew Reuther said:


> But if you read/listen to interviews from successful (and I mean the top of the top) authors, almost invariably they will say "I wish I had followed/not followed x/y advice..."


I don't recall reading / hearing anyone ever saying that. Got any cites?

(I sometimes hear people say: "The best advice I ever got was..." but that's because they're asked ... and they do seem to remember good advice that's helped them succeed. I'm surprised people remember advice they didn't take or that they regret following.)

The only account I heard of people 'almost invariably' saying something was when I attended a memorial service and the priest said: "I do many deathbed services. I've done hundreds. And each and every person on his deathbed says the same thing: _'It went by like that.'_"

I try to keep that in mind: _'It went by like that.'_


----------



## Mathew Reuther

Steve Silkin said:


> I don't recall reading / hearing anyone ever saying that. Got any cites?


Neil Gaiman was told by Stephen King to enjoy things back when he was just hitting it big. He spent the time worrying about everything instead. He's now said that he regrets not listening.


----------



## Klip

Someone (might have been Dalya ) pointed out the other day that one of the reasons craft threads sink is because unlike advice on promotion, formatting, or the latest panic about Amazon changing things, craft advice is not something you need to stay "up to date" on. Does not really change much.

This forum is one of the only places where you can find up to date info on promotion, formatting and the rest, info that is always changing.

The rest of the internet is so full of writing advice that you can hardly turn around without stepping on a "show-dont-tell"

So a lack of interest in craft threads here seems quite natural to me.

(although I do enjoy them when they do pop up )


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## Terrence OBrien

I have never seen a craft thread that I found valuable. Actually, I have seen very few craft threads of any kind. But that could simply be my sheltered life and skewed judgement.

So what do people want to see discussed in a craft thread? What particular subjects? Why? What do you want to know?


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## Betsy the Quilter

I think a discussion of what should probably be in a craft thread should be in a separate thread.  That could go on for ages and is off the topic of the tone in the Writers' Café.

Betsy


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## JRTomlin

Dara England said:


> I remember that incident. I don't remember how the mods or anyone else responded but I recall the plagiarism was pretty brazen.
> 
> On an unrelated note, because several people have mentioned they sometimes feel the mods are overly strict, I want to throw in an opposite opinion. I've never seen the mods shut down a thread that didn't deserve it (IMO) and I've seen a few go on that I would've locked or even deleted in their place. That's not a complaint, since I know it's impossible to please everybody and they can't fix problems they don't know about or haven't seen yet. I just want to point out Betsy, Ann, and Harvey are extremely longsuffering in a lot of areas involving the WC. We writers can be a passionate, sometimes unruly bunch and we give the mods a heavier workout than the rest of the boards put together. I know I've done my share to add to their work and I often feel badly about that.


I have to agree. One of the main reasons I still pop in when I have abandoned almost all other forums is because of the quality of the moderation. I get tired and discouraged by all the "sky is falling" posts which probably bother me more than the arguments. Maybe that is because the mods tend to keep the arguments under control. Forums with really good moderation are rare and to be appreciated. No, I don't always agree but I am absolutely confident that they're doing the best that they can with some *cough* difficult people. (Writers aren't known for being easy going)

Most of the time I think they're right even when it's one of my posts that is being removed. 

( I shouldn't have responded)


----------



## Steve Silkin

Mathew Reuther said:


> Neil Gaiman was told by Stephen King to enjoy things back when he was just hitting it big. He spent the time worrying about everything instead. He's now said that he regrets not listening.


OK. That was an 'I wish I had followed (x/y) advice.' Got one that starts with 'I wish I had _not_ followed (x/y) advice ...?



Terrence OBrien said:


> I have never seen a craft thread that I found valuable.


I had been doing dashes wrong. I was using newspaper style - instead of literary style-and I learned the right way on a thread right here at the cafe!! I think you'd call it a craft thread.


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## Edward W. Robertson

T.L. Haddix said:


> Maybe look at the posters user stats? If we've posted a ton of stuff, that might be one indicator. (That also was not said with snark.)


But then people will think Mathew's advice is better than mine! 

I think this is just a tough issue. I'm already exhausted by questions that used to excite me. I'll try to be better.

One thing I think we could do to improve the overall tone, and help welcome new members, is be careful about the KB dogpile. Even when the advice is great, when it gets too forceful, it starts to sound like groupthink. That gets overwhelming. Puts people on the defensive. When you're on the defensive, it's tough to be open to advice. If we want people to be respectful of that advice, we have to respect the fact they're asking questions because they want to learn. Not to be lectured.

This isn't a direct response to anything that's been said here. Just a tangent, because the dogpile is one of the few things about KB that rubs me the wrong way. If we want to improve the tone, that's one area we should look to improve.


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## Mathew Reuther

Edward W. Robertson said:


> But then people will think Mathew's advice is better than mine!


Don't worry Ed, I'd disabuse them of any such notion quickly. 



> I think this is just a tough issue.


It is, and it's one reason I mentioned that people come and go in forums.


> One thing I think we could do to improve the overall tone, and help welcome new members, is be careful about the KB dogpile. Even when the advice is great, when it gets too forceful, it starts to sound like groupthink. That gets overwhelming. Puts people on the defensive. When you're on the defensive, it's tough to be open to advice. If we want people to be respectful of that advice, we have to respect the fact they're asking questions because they want to learn. Not to be lectured.
> 
> This isn't a direct response to anything that's been said here. Just a tangent, because the dogpile is one of the few things about KB that rubs me the wrong way. If we want to improve the tone, that's one area we should look to improve.


I think this is worth considering. Sometimes when a new response is made it precisely echoes something that has already been put out there. Now, people can;t be expected to read every single reply in a thread, of course. But taking a bit of a pulse can be useful, and might allow folks to add a nuanced post instead of one that just says "this is how it is" which might serve to raise hackles if it's already been said 5 times but there's been a question of "but what about this" or "yes, but this is the situation I am in" later on.

It might be that another reply which addresses the specifics which arise later in the thread is what's needed in such a case, and not just another "listen to the group mind... extermin-err, assimilate!" 

But in any case, there are no doubt moments when a more nuanced response will work better, and might be more helpful than simply one more voice saying the same thing. Thanks for the thought. It's much worth considering.

(ETA: to give a specific, when I was discussing cover design for my own series one of the most prevalent things said was "buy stock art" and "get a good photomanipulation" and the like. This was hammered over and over when I said: "no budget, these are shorts, and even at $10 per short, it adds up faster than you bring money in..." I appreciated the suggestions, of course... it was just that they continued long after I'd said "zero dollars is the budget"... Again: conventional wisdom saying "photo manip/stock art=good" despite the specific situation the newbie was talking about. Groupthink slapping me around, and I know that as a result of my pushback at least one person can't see my posts anymore.)



Steve Silkin said:


> OK. That was an 'I wish I had followed (x/y) advice.' Got one that starts with 'I wish I had _not_ followed (x/y) advice ...?


Mainly from less experienced authors. (And by that I sometimes mean professional mid-listers.) I've been looking for a good example from a top of the line author (they exist) but mostly I've turned up loads of pieces which break down like: "I wish I hadn't wasted all that time outlining, I'm so much better at allowing my novels to shape up around me than pinpointing every single scene" or "writing every day just saps me and I end up less productive than when I write a few times a week" or "every time I just plow through and 'just write' I end up with something that takes me ten times longer to edit than if I'd just taken my time writing it" . . .

There's examples out there, it's just that-you know writers-the one thing we talk about most is writing advice and how some advice is really awful . . . so finding it in the search engines is a pain. You get loads of people complaining about advice they wish they hadn't followed, so the basic premise stands. It essentially goes back to writing being something that is different for all of us, and there being (in essence) writing advice which directly conflicts on almost every aspect.

Follow the wrong advice and it's going to work out poorly. Which is all part of developing. I've lost track of all the advice I've tried and found wanting for me personally.


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## Lisa Grace

> Mathew Reuther -
> Neil Gaiman was told by Stephen King to enjoy things back when he was just hitting it big. He spent the time worrying about everything instead. He's now said that he regrets not listening.


I don't think Neil Gaiman posts here, or Stephen King, so I'm not sure why you picked this as an example of advice not taken. They contribute very little advice that self publishers can use. Both have huge marketing budgets backed by publishers, we don't.



Mathew Reuther said:


> Mainly from less experienced authors. (And by that I sometimes mean professional mid-listers.) I've been looking for a good example from a top of the line author (they exist) but mostly I've turned up loads of pieces which break down like: "I wish I hadn't wasted all that time outlining, I'm so much better at allowing my novels to shape up around me than pinpointing every single scene" or "writing every day just saps me and I end up less productive than when I write a few times a week" or "every time I just plow through and 'just write' I end up with something that takes me ten times longer to edit than if I'd just taken my time writing it" . . .
> 
> There's examples out there, it's just that-you know writers-the one thing we talk about most is writing advice and how some advice is really awful . . . so finding it in the search engines is a pain. You get loads of people complaining about advice they wish they hadn't followed, so the basic premise stands. It essentially goes back to writing being something that is different for all of us, and there being (in essence) writing advice which directly conflicts on almost every aspect.
> 
> Follow the wrong advice and it's going to work out poorly. Which is all part of developing. I've lost track of all the advice I've tried and found wanting for me personally.


While I'm listing this quote from Mathew Reuther to address below, I agree with him that everyone, new to Kboards or not, has something to share and I would like to hear about their experiences.

Anyone who has recent experience has a tale to tell of their self publishing journey. And yes, some of us do weight what more experienced WC mid-list contributors who have been posting for years in the WC (and pick up on changes quickly) a little more highly than new people who don't have a track record of continually overcoming self publishing challenges and having success.

On the other had, you can't use "old" dated (three months ago) advice because of how Amazon works changes that quickly. This is one reason why current posts in the Writers' Cafe are so valuable from those who are going through experiences NOW.

Several mid-listers and low-listers have said Hugh should enjoy the journey.  That applies to all of the good times in life, not just writing. I enjoy hearing from people who sell one book a month or 10,000.

The fabulous experiences of everyone who shares in the WC help people make informed choices. I don't want advice from "top" traditional authors. They forget they're backed by huge marketing machines.

I want indies who who are selling 2, 10, 100, or a thousand books a day, this month and last, explain what they feel is working and isn't working, and I'll analyze whether I think it will work for me.

You can choose to take just the advice from what you personally feel "the top" is, but I want a variety of experiences on which to base my decisions.


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## vrabinec

Mathew Reuther said:


> Don't worry Ed, I'd disabuse them of any such notion quickly.
> 
> It is, and it's one reason I mentioned that people come and go in forums.


One of the most liberating things I've found on forums is admitting when I'm wrong. I think it gives the "opponent" a nice closure, and it's such a rare thing on message boards that it actually stands out. I don't think people ghasp and point at the post, saying, "He admitted he's wrong! I knew it! I'll never believe anything he writes again!" (Not that they believed me in the first palce.)

p.s. You should try stock art.


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## Steve Silkin

Mathew Reuther said:


> There's examples out there, it's just that-you know writers-the one thing we talk about most is writing advice and how some advice is really awful . . . so finding it in the search engines is a pain. You get loads of people complaining about advice they wish they hadn't followed, so the basic premise stands.


You said 'almost invariably.' I thought that would mean it would be easy to point me to one example.

I don't know why anyone would make vast generalizations about the worthlessness of advice. I've learned a lot about writing over the years and I've learned a lot about self-publishing on Kboards.

I understand the value of discussion and debate: I like to stress-test my ideas, too. But there comes a point when discussion and debate becomes pointless.

That's all from me. _It went by like that._


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## Becca Mills

vrabinec said:


> One of the most liberating things I've found on forums is admitting when I'm wrong. I think it gives the "opponent" a nice closure, and it's such a rare thing on message boards that it actually stands out. I don't think people ghasp and point at the post, saying, "He admitted he's wrong! I knew it! I'll never believe anything he writes again!" (Not that they believed me in the first palce.)


+1


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## Betsy the Quilter

Let's set aside some of the nit-picking other people's posts apart--that's no more appropriate here than out in other threads.  (Not saying everyone has done this, but I have seen some of it going on.)

Here's the bottom line and the challenge...no matter whether it's a craft thread, advice to newbies, advice from veterans, celebration, dispair or whatever, we're asking that members try to respond with civility and grace.  If a poster is rude, silly, dumb, or angry, take the high road.  It's the KB way....  

You (plural) can't control what someone else posts, but you can control what you post.  You're authors, for goodness' sake.  Use your words!  And, as my cousin Vrabinec says, occasionally admit you were wrong.

As we work to gain that higher ground, you may find that we're deleting or editing more posts, and sending out more PMs to let you know that we'd like you to work a bit harder. We don't want to impose bans if we don't have to. Let's keep KBoards the place it's reputed to be....

Betsy
KBoards Moderator


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## Jeff

Betsy the Quilter said:


> ...we're asking that members try to respond with civility and grace.


That's asking a great deal of some of us who are curmudgeonly by nature. (I hate dislike am negative abivelanet about the new smilies.)


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

Given how I haven't really been here for at least a year now after spending so much time early in my career, my opinion on the tone may be completely irrelevant, or related to the problem. No clue. But I've had this thread linked to me, I've read through the twelve pages, and what the heck, I'll post one more time.

For those who don't know me, check my post count. According to Ed, it means I should be listened to 

Honestly, for the final few months I stayed here (and admittedly for months after I stopped posting, too) the WC had become NASCAR. I watched the people running in circles, waiting for someone to go spiraling into the wall. Sometimes I'd find it on my own, sometimes I'd have the page linked to me, and then I'd go rushing in to watch. Good for the tone? Not even close. I'd want to poke at the people making fools of themselves, or prod the poster who had lost their minds. Other times I'd see a question posted that was either shockingly stupid, or an insanely blatant attempt at humble-bragging or advertising, and want to descend upon it with the fiery self-righteousness no one could withstand. In this, I doubt I'm alone. Many people who have been here long enough have that one subject or topic they want to make sure gets corrected (must be seen seven times to get a sale, right Julie?  ).

The longer I stayed, and the more repetitive posts became, the less patience I had. When someone grumbles about a bad review (like I once did ages ago) I didn't try to cheer them up. I didn't try to gently remind them that they're in the real world, time to put on the big-boy pants. No, I'd want to hit them with a verbal hammer. As would others, until the thread has the OP humiliated and looking like a villain and all us "professional" self-publishers can feel smug that we policed are own, and corrected a filthy new self-publisher who dared react in a way most of did the very first time we got 1-starred. Yet at the same time, it can be insanely infuriating to have someone with just one or two (or in one maddening example I remember, zero) books for sale sit there and tell you how the market actually is, or how things are supposed to be done, or ways to sell/market/write/promote/package better. And unless you have the patience of a saint (or one of the moderators) some of the frustration at that one group just starts bleeding over onto the others who absolutely don't deserve it.

When I first joined, I wanted to be funny, and I wanted to be helpful. As time went on, I became less of each, until after railing on someone (for reasons I honestly don't remember, but I assure you, they were totally *wrong* on whatever they had thought) another long time poster simply quoted me and said "I remember when you were fun."

That stung. That was my wake-up call that the WC was not for me, because the WC was no longer fun. It wasn't a bunch of scrappy self-publishers defying the odds. This wasn't back when Amanda Hocking announced lifetime sales of 10,000 and it was seen as a jaw-dropping accomplishment. There's money out there, we all know it now. There's a potential success that would boggle the mind. I went into this painfully aware that I could sell 5 books total for a month. I don't know if as many coming in feel the same. I wanted to help people, but I reached a point where I no longer truly believed that the people I wanted to help...could be helped. I thought some topics should have been locked faster, and some never locked at all. The place wasn't being run like how I thought it should be. All my friends had moved on to other places, or stopped posting.

In other words: I became an old man yelling at the annoying new kids to get off my lawn, and to pull up their pants, and to listen to me when I tell them not to do something because dangit, I was their age once and if only they'd not be so stubborn and sure they knew what they were doing...


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## Jeff

You should come back once in a while, David.


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## journeymama

I miss reading your posts, David.


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## Guest

I don't know, but if somebody is being an annoying know-it-all, or overly defensive when they ask for advice and don't get what they want, etc... wouldn't it be less stressful just to put that person on the mental 'ignore' list and shift attention away from them?

Also, as Matthew mentioned sometimes someone is bombarded by a slew of similar comments as if attempting to pound it into their head - it's natural for people to get defensive if the advice is not desirable and/or feasible for them (hint - 'you _need_ professional editing'), so if somebody starts getting defensive, why not back off instead of arguing with them trying to convince them that the advice is 'right'?

Backing off and picking your debates are pretty much necessary survival skills on internet forums in my experience.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

Jeff said:


> You should come back once in a while, David.


Don't you mean: "I remember when you were fun"?


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## Guest

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Don't you mean: "I remember when you were fun"?


I LOVE your 'A Dance of Death' cover BTW. Hope the girl is okay though...


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## journeymama

I wonder how many people here have a lot of experience with web forums. I know this is the only forum I have ever frequently (in my not so frequent fashion) and I don't have a real feeling for the "rules," or how discussions work or are supposed to work in forums.


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## Lisa Grace

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> In other words: I became an old man yelling at the annoying new kids to get off my lawn, and to pull up their pants, and to listen to me when I tell them not to do something because dangit, I was their age once and if only they'd not be so stubborn and sure they knew what they were doing...


Can I have my ball back, Mr. Dalglish?

P. S. Sorry about the burning bag of dog poop incident.


----------



## Jeff

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Don't you mean: "I remember when you were fun"?


Did I say that? If I did, I wasn't serious. I always thought you were fun. Actually, I remember taking a slap at you for something you said when you were a very green. I shouldn't have. Sorry.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

Jeff said:


> Did I say that? If I did, I wasn't serious. I always thought you were fun. Actually, I remember taking a slap at you for something you said when you were a very green. I shouldn't have. Sorry.


I think it was you, and trust me, at that time I really did deserve it.



glutton said:


> I LOVE your 'A Dance of Death' cover BTW. Hope the girl is okay though...





Spoiler



She's on the cover of Blood of the Underworld as well, which is the fourth book in said series, if that answers your question


----------



## vrabinec

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Yet at the same time, it can be insanely infuriating to have someone with just one or two (or in one maddening example I remember, zero) books for sale sit there and tell you how the market actually is, or how things are supposed to be done, or ways to sell/market/write/promote/package better.


I actually find that it's an advantage for me. Nobody can go check my sales yet and roll their eyes. 

So, is there a board where the writers who outgrown KB go? Or do you guys just no longer socialize?


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

vrabinec said:


> I actually find that it's an advantage for me. Nobody can go check my sales yet and roll their eyes.
> 
> So, is there a board where the writers who outgrown KB go? Or do you guys just no longer socialize?


I belong to approximately 5 million author Facebook groups. Approximately 4,999,997 of them are not useful.


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## Guest

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> She's on the cover of Blood of the Underworld as well, which is the fourth book in said series, if that answers your question


She looks to get in trouble a lot. 



vrabinec said:


> So, is there a board where the writers who outgrown KB go?


4chan, Gamefaqs, or Sherdog.


----------



## MegHarris

I still like it here, and I've been here for three years now. I don't know why it still works for me, but it does. I've never been one to argue much, and maybe that helps (I do admit to having an unfortunate love for watching threads go to hell, but I rarely participate in them, just sit back and eat popcorn). I also don't feel like I know much about indie publishing after three years, so maybe that helps too *shrugs*. I've learned to avoid that which irritates me, and only read what amuses or interests me. I'm still learning things and enjoying myself here.


----------



## Quinn Richardson

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Given how I haven't really been here for at least a year now after spending so much time early in my career, my opinion on the tone may be completely irrelevant, or related to the problem. No clue. But I've had this thread linked to me, I've read through the twelve pages, and what the heck, I'll post one more time.


Thanks for checking back in. There are plenty of new faces here (self included), who enjoy the perspective of those who make this writing thing work for them.

Comparing view counts to post counts, there must be quite a few of us who choose to read and enjoy, but don't interact much. We treat it like casual information mining. While I've found the overall tone here might have its ups and downs, there is nearly always something genuinely helpful somewhere on page one. And that keeps me coming back.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Jeff said:


> You should come back once in a while, David.


Yup! Miss all the "David" threads. Where's McAfee?

I ask this at the risk of being shunned as an old-timer.


----------



## vrabinec

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> I belong to approximately 5 million author Facebook groups. Approximately 4,999,997 of them are not useful.


Not sure how useful we could be to someone who's got that many books under their belt. But maybe we could still be entertaining. Okay, ladies, you know what you have to do!


----------



## Guest

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Where's McAfee?


McAfee and I know each other... sort of... from way back on AW.


----------



## Becca Mills

I guess the natural vibrancy and churn of internet forums has, in KB's case, been put into hyperspeed by the explosive growth of self-publishing. I think it's understandable that the natural "aging out" process all forums seem to have might be speeded up in this situation. It's great when founding members stick around, but really only a small percentage of members will remain active on an open forum for ten years or more. Change is the norm. I'm not still active on the forums I joined in 1994, even though they were great communities for me at the time.


----------



## Becca Mills

vrabinec said:


> Not sure how useful we could be to someone who's got that many books under their belt. But maybe we could still be entertaining. Okay, ladies, you know what you have to do!


<gets fan; sits back to watch vrab>


----------



## Jeff

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I ask this at the risk of being shunned as an old-timer.


I think the generally accepted term among the newer members is "oldie" - at least that's what several of them have called me. Of course they may have been referring to my advanced age and not my low member number.


----------



## KBoards Admin

^ Jeff was the 95th person to join KindleBoards... definitely an early adopter!


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Jeff said:


> I think the generally accepted term among the newer members is "oldie" - at least that's what several of them have called me. Of course they may have been referring to my advanced age and not my low member number.


Or as Dona used to refer to herself - geezerette.


----------



## Monique

I have been told repeatedly that I should stop coming here. I've defied this advice over and over, but I'm starting to think being here isn't good for me or for the board. I enjoy helping people. But, like David, I'm not sure it's fun anymore. The bad is outweighing the good for me lately. I don't always agree with the moderation here, but I respect that it's not my opinion that matters. 

It's hard to move on from a place that meant so much to you when you were first starting out. And there are people here I love, but I find myself more frustrated than invigorated. Perhaps that's a sign?


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Monique said:


> I have been told repeatedly that I should stop coming here. I've defied this advice over and over, but I'm starting to think being here isn't good for me or for the board. I enjoy helping people. But, like David, I'm not sure it's fun anymore. The bad is outweighing the good for me lately. I don't always agree with the moderation here, but I respect that it's not my opinion that matters.
> 
> It's hard to move on from a place that meant so much to you when you were first starting out. And there are people here I love, but I find myself more frustrated than invigorated. Perhaps that's a sign?


If no one responds to you, that's a sign. I'm responding.


----------



## intinst

Monique said:


> I have been told repeatedly that I should stop coming here. I've defied this advice over and over, but I'm starting to think being here isn't good for me or for the board. I enjoy helping people. But, like David, I'm not sure it's fun anymore. The bad is outweighing the good for me lately. I don't always agree with the moderation here, but I respect that it's not my opinion that matters.
> 
> It's hard to move on from a place that meant so much to you when you were first starting out. And there are people here I love, but I find myself more frustrated than invigorated. Perhaps that's a sign?


I hope that you can find reasons to stay. I think your views and insights are meaningful and that you are a definite plus for KB.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Monique said:


> I have been told repeatedly that I should stop coming here. I've defied this advice over and over, but I'm starting to think being here isn't good for me or for the board. I enjoy helping people. But, like David, I'm not sure it's fun anymore. The bad is outweighing the good for me lately. I don't always agree with the moderation here, but I respect that it's not my opinion that matters.
> 
> It's hard to move on from a place that meant so much to you when you were first starting out. And there are people here I love, but I find myself more frustrated than invigorated. Perhaps that's a sign?


I do hope you'll stick with us. I enjoy your presence here. I know of your concerns and I can only pledge we're taking them seriously.

Some other members have disagreed fervently with our moderation decisions, and have taken it upon themselves to campaign for people to leave the boards. It's hard to please everyone, but I hope you all know we care deeply for this place and put a lot of work into making it as safe and enjoyable a place as it can be.


----------



## Monique

Thank you all for the kind words. It's the good people that have kept me coming back. I have been torn in both directions for some time now. I do want to clarify that it's not one person/incident that's pushing me away, although recent events do play a role in my feelings. I find myself skipping over more posts than I read and deleting more than I submit. Makes me wonder.

There are many here who have been incredibly kind to me and supportive. I could never thank them enough. I hope you know who you are 

The board will carry on with or without me; I just wanted to share another semi-oldie's view.


----------



## Jeff

Monique said:


> I have been told repeatedly that I should stop coming here. I've defied this advice over and over, but I'm starting to think being here isn't good for me or for the board. I enjoy helping people. But, like David, I'm not sure it's fun anymore. The bad is outweighing the good for me lately. I don't always agree with the moderation here, but I respect that it's not my opinion that matters.
> 
> It's hard to move on from a place that meant so much to you when you were first starting out. And there are people here I love, but I find myself more frustrated than invigorated. Perhaps that's a sign?


Don't make me hunt you down.


----------



## Monique

(((jeff)))


----------



## Andrew Ashling

I'm a bit mystified.

I am not aware of a major shift in the tone of this board. Okay, some threads have been less than constructive and rather irritating, and I bowed out of some of them. On the other hand a lot of things have improved.

I can vividly remember the time when a new, inexperienced author joined, looking for sympathy because he received his first one-star and was mauled for his trouble by a horde of vicious wolves. Granted, he was clumsy - due to inexperience. He tried to defend himself in an even clumsier way. The result was not pretty. I never witnessed such cruelty as here on the friendly, polite board. I waited for a mod to intervene. This was made redundant because the guy left the board in disgust. I'm happy to say, to my knowledge, this doesn't happen anymore.

Also gone are the several threads, launched whenever some _@@##!!& [unmentionable]_ went berserk because of a bad review on some blogger-site. This used to give rise to sensationalist threads tarring all and sundry who ever put two words together with a broad brush, dripping of venom, condescension and malicious mockery. These threads seem to be history as well.

See? Not all is gloom and doom.


----------



## Lynn McNamee

I've been coming to this forum for over 4 years.

I've sworn to stop posting more times than I can count.

I think the first time I swore that was when an author called me an ignorant cat lady (in so many words) for not giving his/her book a favorable review. Oh, and then there was that stalking one. The mods were really helpful with those, but I still got tired of the abuse.

Do I feel welcome here now? Not anymore. I haven't felt welcome since I stopped reviewing books. I guess I wore out my usefulness after that for a lot of the authors.

Lately, I just feel as though my being on this forum is causing some people to get very upset... not at what I'm saying, but by my very existence. At first, I thought maybe it was just my imagination, but then clients started calling me to ask, "What did you do to XXX? He/She is following you on KB and making snarky and rude posts every time you post." I've been urged to report it and/or quit coming here.

Why haven't I reported it? Well, some people are really good at stalking and making others feel unwelcome. They don't cross any reportable lines. They make sure to keep the nuances where only long-time members will notice the nastiness, and if the person being harassed complains, he or she will only look paranoid.

So why do I keep coming back? Because I got my start here. Because I still have many friends here (though that number is starting to dwindle as those people get tired of the <fill in the blank>). Because I love authors. Because I love reading. Because every now and then I help an author and he/she says "thank you" instead of getting angry. Because the mods do their very best to make sure this is a nice place to be.

Just as in everything from forums to the workplace, you can't please everyone.


----------



## vrabinec

Andrew Ashling said:


> I'm a bit mystified.
> 
> I am not aware of a major shift in the tone of this board. Okay, some threads have been less than constructive and rather irritating, and I bowed out of some of them. On the other hand a lot of things have improved.


Well, I haven't been on here long enough to feel any change, it feels like the same KB I joined 2 years ago. But, while I agree there are some threads that et annoying, I just ignore those, and go on to the ones that interest me. And, maybe it's just because I'm still a novice, but I learn something new every day, and every few days I cut and paste a thread for future use. That said, I can see being uncomfortable if you feel you're getting stalked, and some things have even made me squirm, and that's not an easy thing to do. But I always kinda thought that goes along with big message boards.


----------



## Guest

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> In this, I doubt I'm alone. Many people who have been here long enough have that one subject or topic they want to make sure gets corrected (must be seen seven times to get a sale, right *****?  ).


Dave, come on! This thread went TWELVE PAGES without me getting dragged into it! TWELVE PAGES! (unless, of course, some of the ones Betsy deleted were about me ). But really, 12 pages has got to be a record.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

It's not ALWAYS about you, Julie....


Betsy


----------



## KBoards Admin

^ Thanks for your thoughts, Lynn. 

I would encourage you, and others, if you feel someone on the board is making you uncomfortable - - even if it's not flagrant - - let us know. We can communicate our concerns with that member and put that person on a 'watch list.' 

I know it's tough on your situation, because you reviewed a lot of books... and some authors don't take those honest reviews well... but I would think you have a lot of support here from our general population.


----------



## Guest

In all seriousness, I would ask one thing of the mods. Before threatening someone with the cattle prod, ask yourself if you would issue the same warning if (random KB member) said the same thing. Because at times I think there are knee jerk reactions based on who is talking and not what is actually being said.

Granted, I don't deny that there have been times where I 100% deserved the cattle prod, but I also get very frustrated when I get warned about something that four other people in the same thread have said in almost identical words (or in some cases, harsher words). I get PMs from other members asking why I'm being warned about something I said that was actually rather mundane. I think some people react more to _poster reputations_ than anything the _poster actually said_. And I recognize the irony of that statement while having a sithy avatar, but at the same time, ITS A SITH AVATAR. As in I'm a geek, people.  I think if people read some of my posts with the realization that I publish roleplaying games, they might not get so bent out of shape at perceived slights.


----------



## Guest

Betsy the Quilter said:


> It's not ALWAYS about you, *****....
> 
> 
> Betsy


  WOOT! It wasn't my fault!


----------



## KOwrites

Monique said:


> Thank you all for the kind words. It's the good people that have kept me coming back. I have been torn in both directions for some time now. I do want to clarify that it's not one person/incident that's pushing me away, although recent events do play a role in my feelings. I find myself skipping over more posts than I read and deleting more than I submit. Makes me wonder.
> 
> There are many here who have been incredibly kind to me and supportive. I could never thank them enough. I hope you know who you are
> 
> The board will carry on with or without me; I just wanted to share another semi-oldie's view.


I hope you'll stay. I love your one word responses that always make me smile or pause and say, 'why can't I be succinct like that?' 

I often feel ignored here (when I post) and I cruise through more than comment...just to get the gist of a thread and decide whether it's for me or not.

I hope you'll stay. _Please._


----------



## KBoards Admin

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> In all seriousness, I would ask one thing of the mods. Before threatening someone with the cattle prod, ask yourself if you would issue the same warning if (random KB member) said the same thing. Because at times I think there are knee jerk reactions based on who is talking and not what is actually being said.
> 
> Granted, I don't deny that there have been times where I 100% deserved the cattle prod, but I also get very frustrated when I get warned about something that four other people in the same thread have said in almost identical words (or in some cases, harsher words). I get PMs from other members asking why I'm being warned about something I said that was actually rather mundane.


I respect your point. I will also point out that, many times when we moderate a member's post, others in the same thread are being warned or moderated behind the scenes.

Getting the angry-face emoticon from Betsy is our gentlest form of moderation.


----------



## vrabinec

I sense this turning into a big therapy session. Can we all do a group hug when we're done here?


----------



## dalya

I have no complaints about how I've been treated.

There are a few posters who are universally rude in most of their posts, to everyone, without prejudice. Some never say a nice thing except in response to direct praise of them or their work.

It's important for us all to remember that some people LIKE arguing. It depends on how you're wired. Some folks avoid conflict at all costs, whereas others never feel quite so alive as when they are full of righteous, fiery outrage.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

I try not to make knee jerk moderation actions, except when cousin vrabinec posts   and I think those who have been privy to the smoke filled room discussions could verify that.

And no, you're not getting any hugs, cousin V.  Nice try, though.



Betsy


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> In all seriousness, I would ask one thing of the mods. Before threatening someone with the cattle prod, ask yourself if you would issue the same warning if (random KB member) said the same thing. Because at times I think there are knee jerk reactions based on who is talking and not what is actually being said.
> 
> Granted, I don't deny that there have been times where I 100% deserved the cattle prod, but I also get very frustrated when I get warned about something that four other people in the same thread have said in almost identical words (or in some cases, harsher words). I get PMs from other members asking why I'm being warned about something I said that was actually rather mundane. I think some people react more to _poster reputations_ than anything the _poster actually said_. And I recognize the irony of that statement while having a sithy avatar, but at the same time, ITS A SITH AVATAR. As in I'm a geek, people.  I think if people read some of my posts with the realization that I publish roleplaying games, they might not get so bent out of shape at perceived slights.


Sithy? I thought your comments were pithy. See how easily something can be taken the wrong way?

Seriously, Julie, I may not always agree with you, but you do have a way of getting to the heart of the matter. And since we officially crowned you the "Queen of Mean" last year, I think that entitles you to be more than a little outspoken.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Harvey said:


> Getting the angry-face emoticon from Betsy is our gentlest form of moderation.


Harvey's point is well taken...(not the one above, the one about many moderation acts are not done in public). We do a LOT behind the scenes or by just quietly removing posts.

Betsy


----------



## Amanda Brice

Caitie Quinn said:


> Every time we talk about something like this, the answers are ALWAYS "well, at ABC the XYZ is so much worse, so we're doing just fine."
> 
> Harvey obviously didn't start this thread because he thinks things are going "just fine" and there are some things in life that aren't relative. If I'm rude to you but you're even more rude back, that doesn't mean I'm not rude. It just means we're both rude. Fill that in with mean, thoughtless, cruel, brutish... whatever.
> 
> I'd hate to think that the awesomeness that is KB would sink as low as it can go to a place just above the best-of-the-worst with a defense of "well, we're still XYZer than ABC."
> 
> Thanks Harvey, Betsy, Ann for the proactive thread.


What Caitie said.

Thank you, thank you, thank you Harvey, Betsy, Ann!


----------



## Terrence OBrien

From the posts in this thread, the dissatisfaction doesn't seem to stem from a lack of civility and grace, but from more fundamental differences of opinion on a variety of issues. So even if everyone adopted a civil and gracious tone, the problem would remain. 

I suspect a wider variety of people are writing books now. When the barriers to entry fall, more people enter. More perspectives and attitudes enter. We have often heard about the revolution in publishing and how the world of books has changed. The mix of authors is changing, too.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Terrence OBrien said:


> From the posts in this thread, the dissatisfaction doesn't seem to stem from a lack of civility and grace, but from more fundamental differences of opinion on a variety of issues. So even if everyone adopted a civil and gracious tone, the problem would remain.
> 
> I suspect a wider variety of people are writing books now. When the barriers to entry fall, more people enter. More perspectives and attitudes enter. We have often heard about the revolution in publishing and how the world of books has changed. The mix of authors is changing, too.


My own perception is that it's not the differences of opinion, it's in how those opinions are presented. Respectful posts versus dismissive posts, etc.

Also, I think part of our moderation challenge is to not have a voice or two dominate the board... this is a community and there are many voices to be heard.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

*sigh*

You don't know how many PMs and reports I get accusing me of playing favorites.

I guess I should take it as a sign that, if I'm not pleasing anyone, I'm walking the middle ground...  



Betsy


----------



## vrabinec

I don't think you censor and warn me enough, and frankly, _[censored]._

_How's that.  --Betsy_


----------



## Zelah Meyer

I think a lot of unpleasantness could be avoided if people would remember the simple forum etiquette for 'lively' debates - of attacking the argument rather than the person making it.  

If someone says that apples are red - you could agree, or you could say that you completely disagree because apples are definitely green, or that apples can be red or green.  What you shouldn't do is say, "Only an idiot would say that apples are red."  Or, "If you say apples are red then you are clearly ignorant and like to murder kittens."

When the personal attacks get too out of hand, then the posts get deleted - but the personal attacks shouldn't really be happening at all.  I'm not sure if I'm speaking for anyone other than myself when I say this - but deleting posts isn't enough in and of itself.  If you have a school bully who continually writes bad things about other students on the walls & you deal with it by getting the janitor to clean the walls - you're not dealing with the bullying.

I think the Mods do a great job of stepping in at the right time to stop arguments from escalating or to close down threads that are getting out of hand.  It's just that, personally, think that they are a little too lenient at times with persistent offenders.  

Still, it's not my boards.  Lately I've felt a bit unwelcome here too, so I know how some of the other people who've posted in this thread feel.  I've drafted so many responses to this thread and deleted them all.  I'm wary of provoking more attacks.  However, like others, I've recently toyed with leaving - or moving to other parts of the boards to avoid the risk of someone having a go at me (rather than my opinions) - and I feel that I ought to share the fact that I feel that way.


----------



## Becca Mills

vrabinec said:


> I don't think you censor and warn me enough, and frankly, _[censored]._
> 
> _How's that.  --Betsy_


LOL! You guys planned that, right?


----------



## WHDean

T.L. Haddix said:


> There are several of us who have our little band of followers, not so merry, who are the equivalent of down-vote fairies.


I envy you and Julie. I don't have nearly the number of down-vote fairies I'd like to have. Now that you've brought it into the open, of course, there's hope of a fairy migration: maybe they'll come and roost on my sunny upslope.



Betsy the Quilter said:


> *sigh*
> 
> You don't know how many PMs and reports I get accusing me of playing favorites.


Wait a minute! People actually use the moderator button? I thought it was just there for show-like the complaints box that empties into the trashcan. And I can complain about favourites? I really have to get on board with that: I have a whole list of beefs that need addressing&#8230;


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

WHDean said:


> Wait a minute! People actually use the moderator button? I thought it was just there for show-like the complaints box that empties into the trashcan. And I can complain about favourites? I really have to get on board with that: I have a whole list of beefs that need addressing&#8230;


Have at it, WHD...


Betsy


----------



## 41413

KindleBoards is software. It is only as good as the people choosing to participate.

The moderation practices of this board have cultivated its user base and the content available.

Mazel tov.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Several people have mentioned not feeling welcome. What does that mean?


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Sure. I don't recall you mentioned the welcome factor.


----------



## KBoards Admin

genevieveaclark said:


> KB is only relevant because of the free content provided by its members.
> 
> *I, for one, have a huge problem with contributing free content to a monetized site that knowingly enables sexually predatory behavior, as detailed in this thread.*
> 
> It is a cop out to say that what happens other sites doesn't count. There is no Supreme Court of KB; moderation of members is at the discretion of the moderators.
> 
> *When they allow a person who has engaged in such behavior to stick around, when they enable that behavior by deleting objections to it, by locking threads warning female members of what's going on, they offer their tacit consent and become complicit.*
> 
> Morally objectionable doesn't begin to cover it. Dismissing concerns like these with condescending language in PMs, tut tutting that maybe members who are _completely freaked out_ by this have had the temerity to discuss the issue amongst themselves, and allowing all of this to continue: you make KB not a safe space for women. Seems there's been a pattern to the objectionable behavior that's been allowed to go on for far too long.
> 
> I await this post's deletion with a mixture of...no, actually, it's just straight up outrage. This is shameful.
> 
> And I'm done.


You are mistaken, Genevieve, if you think this isn't something we take seriously. Obviously you don't agree with our handling of it so far, or our timing of our actions. But your viewpoint is far off from my perception of how we choose to run this place. We're not perfect, but we try to handle things as consistently and diligently as we can.

This might be a situation where we need to review our policy about WHOA. We're discussing that now.


----------



## KBoards Admin

T.L. Haddix said:


> This is disturbing on a lot of levels. I know this whole thing blew up over the weekend, but I hadn't had a chance to really sit and look at all of it. And it's a prime example of what we're talking about here. No words. Sure, maybe Glutton hasn't exactly broken the rules, but he's skirted them and demonstrated behavior that is outrageous. He's making people uncomfortable in a very, very visceral way, doing it deliberately, and presumably getting off on it. He's been reported, the people who reported him have been slapped on the wrist (or worse, for all we know and from what Genevieve says), talked down to, and he sits in his throne grinning. Good job.
> 
> Reading the thread GC references, I see that George Berger, who stood up and pointed out what the true motivation was, has changed his avatar from his goat to "No longer welcome here." That breaks my heart. George has contributed so much humor and kindness, and he's been chastised because he dared speak the truth. Okay. That's logical.
> 
> I don't know what else to say. Just that I'm very, very sad.


Oh, please. George decided to pull himself away. He's still welcome here.


----------



## dalya

genevieveaclark said:


> *I, for one, have a huge problem with contributing free content to a monetized site that knowingly enables sexually predatory behavior, as detailed in this thread.*


Ah.

Yes, that is entirely a different thing from a wee bit o' snark.

ETA: George! Come back!


----------



## melissafmiller

T.L. Haddix said:


> This is disturbing on a lot of levels. I know this whole thing blew up over the weekend, but I hadn't had a chance to really sit and look at all of it. And it's a prime example of what we're talking about here. No words. Sure, maybe Glutton hasn't exactly broken the rules, but he's skirted them and demonstrated behavior that is outrageous. He's making people uncomfortable in a very, very visceral way, doing it deliberately, and presumably getting off on it. He's been reported, the people who reported him have been slapped on the wrist (or worse, for all we know and from what Genevieve says), talked down to, and he sits in his throne grinning. Good job.
> 
> Reading the thread GC references, I see that George Berger, who stood up and pointed out what the true motivation was, has changed his avatar from his goat to "No longer welcome here." That breaks my heart. George has contributed so much humor and kindness, and he's been chastised because he dared speak the truth. Okay. That's logical.
> 
> I don't know what else to say. Just that I'm very, very sad.


I agree 100% with this TL. And truth be told, I very rarely post here unless it's on a celebration thread. But this particular issue really disturbs me. Because in this VERY thread, glutton commented on Dalglish's cover (which granted is amazing) and then added "hope the girl's okay" or words to that effect. Reportable? No. Bannable? Nope. Stomach-turning in context? Completely, IMO. But who has the context to understand it when the response is to quietly cover up the behavior?


----------



## Guest

I would like to say in my defense that what I enjoy is the thought of female characters in _fictional_ situations overcoming physical peril to prevail, as you would understand if you read my journal entries on the Deviantart page.


----------



## Danielle Kazemi

Read through a goodly portion of this  - which I think happens with every thread that extends past the second page - and I really hope no one thinks about leaving. I like reading what people put on here whether they're complaining about their one stars, excited about their bajillionth sale (I may be stretching that number a bit), or just complaining how Amazon is unfair.

I will admit there are certain people on here whom I will not read what they write. They are crude, crass, and just all around ****flakes. It's sad the bad apples are ruining the whole barrel. I really hope those who left come back but perhaps their time here was done. Only they know for sure.

I think some of this might be people not understanding the decorum which should be followed here. This is a public board everyone can read. That means from the age of 3 to 103. Don't post something you wouldn't want your littlest kid or oldest nan to read.

Overall, I think the mods are doing a good job.


----------



## Jeff

T.L. Haddix said:


> This.
> 
> And...
> 
> Oh, please? Really?
> 
> I'm done. I'm just shocked beyond words at your response, Harvey. I expected the favoritism from Betsy. Not from you.
> 
> Anyone who knows me from here who wants to contact me, you can probably figure out how to do it. You all take care.
> 
> I'm done.


You're overreacting, Tabitha. Everyone is piling on without giving him a chance.


> This might be a situation where we need to review our policy about WHOA. We're discussing that now.


----------



## Justawriter

genevieveaclark said:


> KB is only relevant because of the free content provided by its members.
> 
> *I, for one, have a huge problem with contributing free content to a monetized site that knowingly enables sexually predatory behavior, as detailed in this thread.*
> 
> It is a cop out to say that what happens other sites doesn't count. There is no Supreme Court of KB; moderation of members is at the discretion of the moderators.
> 
> *When they allow a person who has engaged in such behavior to stick around, when they enable that behavior by deleting objections to it, by locking threads warning female members of what's going on, they offer their tacit consent and become complicit.*
> 
> Morally objectionable doesn't begin to cover it. Dismissing concerns like these with condescending language in PMs, tut tutting that maybe members who are _completely freaked out_ by this have had the temerity to discuss the issue amongst themselves, and allowing all of this to continue: you make KB not a safe space for women. Seems there's been a pattern to the objectionable behavior that's been allowed to go on for far too long.
> 
> I await this post's deletion with a mixture of...no, actually, it's just straight up outrage. This is shameful.
> 
> And I'm done.


Wow. I usually pop in and out of here as time permits, and I'd been thinking the moderators do a good job generally. But, I just saw the referenced thread and it made me sick to my stomach. Really sick and disturbing stuff. I'm surprised that was allowed here, it seems very out of place. If that's what you mean by problems with tone, then I'd agree. That doesn't belong here.


----------



## KBoards Admin

I've decided to make an exception to our WHOA policy, and the member of concern has been banned. 

I do object, though, to the way the actions of me and our moderators on this issue have been characterized in this thread.


----------



## Jeff

^ see?


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Andrew Ashling said:


> I'm a bit mystified.
> 
> I am not aware of a major shift in the tone of this board.


Enough of a change in tone for you to notice, Andrew?


----------



## KBoards Admin

genevieveaclark said:


> I'm not sure who the "him" is. If it's the member who was just banned, actually, we did! He'd been doing this stuff for a while. It's not like people went looking for info because he _wasn't_ creepy.
> 
> If you're referring to Harvey, well, again, you have no idea what convos have gone on in PM.
> 
> But please, Jeff, mainsplain it to me more. My overly-emotional female brain just can't quite grasp what you mean.


Obviously there's a lot of hurt and frustration over this. Genevieve, any PMs I've seen have simply referred to our policy of moderating people based on behavior in *this* site, not on the overall Internet. As noted above, I've now made an exception to that policy, given the concerns expressed by you and several other members here.


----------



## KOwrites

T.L. Haddix said:


> This is disturbing on a lot of levels. I know this whole thing blew up over the weekend, but I hadn't had a chance to really sit and look at all of it. And it's a prime example of what we're talking about here. No words. Sure, maybe Glutton hasn't exactly broken the rules, but he's skirted them and demonstrated behavior that is outrageous. He's making people uncomfortable in a very, very visceral way, doing it deliberately, and presumably getting off on it. He's been reported, the people who reported him have been slapped on the wrist (or worse, for all we know and from what Genevieve says), talked down to, and he sits in his throne grinning. Good job.
> 
> Reading the thread GC references, I see that George Berger, who stood up and pointed out what the true motivation was, has changed his avatar from his goat to "No longer welcome here." That breaks my heart. George has contributed so much humor and kindness, and he's been chastised because he dared speak the truth. Okay. That's logical.
> 
> I don't know what else to say. Just that I'm very, very sad.





genevieveaclark said:


> KB is only relevant because of the free content provided by its members.
> 
> *I, for one, have a huge problem with contributing free content to a monetized site that knowingly enables sexually predatory behavior, as detailed in this thread.*
> 
> It is a cop out to say that what happens other sites doesn't count. There is no Supreme Court of KB; moderation of members is at the discretion of the moderators.
> 
> *When they allow a person who has engaged in such behavior to stick around, when they enable that behavior by deleting objections to it, by locking threads warning female members of what's going on, they offer their tacit consent and become complicit.*
> 
> Morally objectionable doesn't begin to cover it. Dismissing concerns like these with condescending language in PMs, tut tutting that maybe members who are _completely freaked out_ by this have had the temerity to discuss the issue amongst themselves, and allowing all of this to continue: you make KB not a safe space for women. Seems there's been a pattern to the objectionable behavior that's been allowed to go on for far too long.
> 
> I await this post's deletion with a mixture of...no, actually, it's just straight up outrage. This is shameful.
> 
> And I'm done.


Okay.

So I read all these pages and I'm like "what is the elephant in the room that everyone is refusing to REALLY talk about." Got the dysfunctional family vibe from all of this.

Thank you Genevieve and T.L. for _stating it_ and linking to the thread.

Wow.

No words.

Unusual for me, although it is usual that I'm the last to know things (worked that way in the office; still works that way even here) because I'm a workaholic and "working" instead of you know spending an inordinate amount of time on forums. But, I like this one because it is the heartbeat for what is happening in the writing/self-publishing world/amazon and the riches of wisdom and wit outweigh the snark...but the deviancy Scary.



glutton said:


> I would like to say in my defense that what I enjoy is the thought of female characters in _fictional_ situations overcoming physical peril to prevail, as you would understand if you read my journal entries on the Deviantart page.


What you say, what you do follows you everywhere...It's all there forever online somewhere. Obviously, others have.

What a prize lesson for all of us here to tread carefully and be careful. Oh, and there's one more: the truth will set you free.

Oh, and this one: what goes around comes around.


----------



## melissafmiller

Since I publicly expressed disappointment that the issue was being handled the way it had been, I'd like to now also publicly say that I'm relieved and grateful that Harvey and the moderators decided to make an exception to their policy in this case. And now I will return to my previously scheduled program of posting once every third blue moon.


----------



## Guest

glutton said:


> I would like to say in my defense that what I enjoy is the thought of female characters in _fictional_ situations overcoming physical peril to prevail, as you would understand if you read my journal entries on the Deviantart page.


I hope I can say this to you honestly, as I've actually published one of your stories in the past and don't think you actually mean harm. I think part of the problem Billy is that you are a bit over-the-top, however. If you only had one or two threads about your books, I doubt the situation would have escalated to this point. But you tend to engage in a lot of stealth spamming by starting threads under the pretense of discussing a general topic, and then using that thread to talk about your book. There was one day when I logged on and like five or your threads were on the first page, all different generic subjects and all in reality plugging your books. I've stopped opening any threads you start simply because I KNOW it is going to be promoting your books.

And you do talk about your heroine like she is your fantasy girlfriend. Coming from a gamer background, I dismiss it because I'm tone deaf to it. Sort of like I use to zone out on "Barrens Chat" when I played WOW (or general chat in the starting area of ANY MMO for that matter). But I can also completely understand where other women would be VERY uncomfortable with some of your subject matter and the incessant way you discuss it.


----------



## CarlG

Just a word of support to the mods and writers both. Great place, K-boards. Been posting here 6 months and lurking another six. Plan to continue learning and contributing.

Read the whole thread. I don't post that much because it takes so long to catch up reading on threads every day.

Bully. Carry on.


----------



## KBoards Admin

genevieveaclark said:


> And I'm very glad you've made that decision, though it has come, in my opinion, very, very late. I'm sure you can understand that this has already done damage. That glutton's behavior _did damage_. That allowing him to continue _did damage_. It isn't theoretical. It isn't even debatable: mod actions directly hid this behavior and allowed it to continue. So, I'm glad you've finally banned him, after those concerns were made public (again). But mod choices in this situation have fundamentally changed my view-and I'd bet a lot of money that I'm not alone in this-of Kindleboards and how women are treated here.
> 
> So there are two issues for me, really. You've taken care of one. Which is great.
> 
> But it's incredible to me that you would value a discretionary policy over the effect that a person like glutton could have on the women of this board, some of whom have shared that they are survivors of assault.
> 
> That isn't a characterization. That's what happened. I don't know how you fix that.


Well, I doubt I'm going to be able to change your mind. It seems you believe we locked the thread to cover up or somehow support the offending behavior. All I can tell you is that's not the case, and it's not a reflection of "how we treat women" on this board.

We locked it because we generally lock threads that are WHOA. Please don't read into it more than that.

Looking forward to moving past this, and I hope you can too.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson

Thanks for making an exception. This was the right decision, and should anything like this crop up again, I hope it will be easier to take action.


----------



## Guest

You know if you read this post of mine on Deviantart, you can clearly see that what I really like is the _toughness_ shown by the characters in these situations: http://gluttun.deviantart.com/art/Hitting-video-game-girls-when-they-re-down-292773284

I write stories about women who take a lot of damage and _overcome_ it to win, and I haven't harmed or tried to harm anyone... most of my posts besides my overenthusiastic gushing about my work are trying to be helpful. I don't understand why I'm being banned for being weird off the board (okay, and a little on it)?


----------



## Kent Kelly

Seriously?


----------



## Guest

Kent Kelly said:


> Seriously?


Yes, if you actually read any of the stories there's no way you'd think I'm 'against' women in any way. Tell 'em, Matthew (from your previous post I assume you read Iron Bloom?)

Probably gonna be banned again in a sec but I'll be around lurking...


----------



## Krista D. Ball

*clears throat*

Does anyone want me to take this question?


----------



## Guest

Krista D. Ball said:


> *clears throat*
> 
> Does anyone want me to take this question?


----------



## philstern

First of all, I'd like to thank the moderators on this board. It sounds like a fairly thankless task, with every decision being second-guessed.

But if someone launches a personal attack, ban them.

For example, if I was to write "I love vanilla ice cream," and then someone else writes "Phil Stern is a piece of shit for liking vanilla ice cream," then *BAN THEM*. And don't blame both people in the thread for the dust up, blame the person who launched the personal attack.

We need to differentiate between dealing with material or topics, and launching attacks just because someone doesn't like someone else's opinion.

If the moderators allow free expression of ideas, even unpopular ideas, but come down like a ton of bricks on those who attack other people personally, then the board will be a fun, happy place again.

Sometimes you have to clear the bums off the street before the businesses will come back. I think the moderators need to dish out some very tough love to the ingrates (ingrates in general, not any ingrates in particular) who are screwing up this board for everyone.

And when someone is banned, tell us who and why. A good public hanging will keep everyone in line.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Krista D. Ball said:


> *clears throat*
> 
> Does anyone want me to take this question?


^ Taken care of.


----------



## Krista D. Ball

Harvey said:


> ^ Taken care of.


I can't tell if that was to me or Phil.


----------



## Kathleen Valentine

I'm getting a headache.  

(But I like some of these new emoticons....)


----------



## Krista D. Ball

philstern said:


> First of all, I'd like to thank the moderators on this board. It sounds like a fairly thankless task, with every decision being second-guessed.
> 
> But if someone launches a personal attack, ban them.
> 
> For example, if I was to write "I love vanilla ice cream," and then someone else writes "Phil Stern is a piece of [crap] for liking vanilla ice cream," then *BAN THEM*. And don't blame both people in the thread for the dust up, blame the person who launched the personal attack.
> 
> We need to differentiate between dealing with material or topics, and launching attacks just because someone doesn't like someone else's opinion.
> 
> If the moderators allow free expression of ideas, even unpopular ideas, but come down like a ton of bricks on those who attack other people personally, then the board will be a fun, happy place again.
> 
> Sometimes you have to clear the bums off the street before the businesses will come back. I think the moderators need to dish out some very tough love to the ingrates (ingrates in general, not any ingrates in particular) who are screwing up this board for everyone.
> 
> And when someone is banned, tell us who and why. A good public hanging will keep everyone in line.


Does anyone want me to comment on this one? 

<--- goes back to the book recommendations threads. I'm just teasing now.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Krista D. Ball said:


> I can't tell if that was to me or Phil.


To you, Krista.


----------



## vrabinec

Harvey said:


> I've decided to make an exception to our WHOA policy, and the member of concern has been banned.
> 
> I do object, though, to the way the actions of me and our moderators on this issue have been characterized in this thread.


Thank you, Harvey.

When I said:



vrabinec said:


> and some things have even made me squirm, and that's not an easy thing to do.


That was what I was refering to. I hope Genevieve and those of us who were concerned are wrong and that you just banned an innocent man. And if that's the case, I apologize. But when there are safety concerns...


----------



## Krista D. Ball

Harvey said:


> To you, Krista.


Cause it was just funny either way.


----------



## CMTheAuthor

I agree that discussing writing means discussing all possible subjects of writing, even the unpleasant ones. There are far too many corners of the internet where simply trying to talk about such things is forbidden, even though they will continue to be a part of written (as well as other forms of) fiction. Maturity is golden, people.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

Original post in said link:



> I've always loved fighting games like the old Marvel vs Capcom games, Dead or Alive 4, Tekken series, and especially Soul Calibur series in which you can continue beating an opponent after the end of a round. It's always so exciting to see the letters "KO" (or the equivalent) flash across the screen, and then keep hitting the girls while they are apparently incapacitated... even better when they still react to the blows, as they do in many of these games. Multi-hit moves that keep going after the first hit "KOs" them are great too, especially they continue to make pained (but conscious-looking) reactions to the attacks. What makes it even more awesome is when they still get back up for another round - such toughness and spunk! I guess I just really love the idea of a brave warrior girl getting rendered temporarily too weak to defend herself, but still aware enough to feel and respond to being injured again and again... and then SO adorably, rallying herself after such a brutal beating to get back up and fight on!


My personal edit.



> I've always loved fighting games...especially Soul Calibur series in which you can continue beating an opponent after the end of a round. It's always so exciting to see the letters "KO" (or the equivalent) flash across the screen, and then keep hitting the girls while they are apparently incapacitated... even better when they still react to the blows, as they do in many of these games. Multi-hit moves that keep going after the first hit "KOs" them are great too, especially they continue to make pained (but conscious-looking) reactions to the attacks. I guess I just really love the idea of a brave warrior girl getting rendered temporarily too weak to defend herself, but still aware enough to feel and respond to being injured again and again...


You get a visceral thrill to be beating down virtual women. You like that it looks realistic, that these women aren't even unconscious but are clearly feeling the pain. You like the idea of these powerful women getting rendered weak, powerless, helpless, forced to only respond in helpless ways as they are injured again and again.

And you think that because they *live* or even *win* it makes it all better? That's like saying you love to re-watch the 25 minute rape scene in I Spit On Your Grave over and over again because you know she comes back later and kills them all.


----------



## Jeff

genevieveaclark said:


> I'm not sure who the "him" is. If it's the member who was just banned, actually, we did! He'd been doing this stuff for a while. It's not like people went looking for info because he _wasn't_ creepy.
> 
> If you're referring to Harvey, well, again, you have no idea what convos have gone on in PM.
> 
> But please, Jeff, mainsplain it to me more. My overly-emotional female brain just can't quite grasp what you mean.


I was referring to the quote that I included from Harvey in which he said "This might be a situation where we need to review our policy about WHOA. We're discussing that now." I just didn't want T.L. to go away until Harvey had a chance to think about it. My comment had nothing at all to do with you or the offending statements.


----------



## KBoards Admin

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Original post in said link:
> 
> My personal edit.
> 
> You get a visceral thrill to be beating down virtual women. You like that it looks realistic, that these women aren't even unconscious but are clearly feeling the pain. You like the idea of these powerful women getting rendered weak, powerless, helpless, forced to only respond in helpless ways as they are injured again and again.
> 
> And you think that because they *live* or even *win* it makes it all better? That's like saying you love to re-watch the 25 minute rape scene in I Spit On Your Grave over and over again because you know she comes back later and kills them all.


He can't hear you, David. He's been blocked, from even signing in as guest.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

Harvey said:


> He can't hear you, David. He's been blocked, from even signing in as guest.


----------



## jackz4000

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Original post in said link:
> 
> My personal edit.
> 
> You get a visceral thrill to be beating down virtual women. You like that it looks realistic, that these women aren't even unconscious but are clearly feeling the pain. You like the idea of these powerful women getting rendered weak, powerless, helpless, forced to only respond in helpless ways as they are injured again and again.
> 
> And you think that because they *live* or even *win* it makes it all better? That's like saying you love to re-watch the 25 minute rape scene in I Spit On Your Grave over and over again because you know she comes back later and kills them all.


There is a definite sickness to this. Repugnant. **Calling Dr Drew Now**


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

genevieveaclark said:


> Ok, yes, but also, ALSO:


Well. Yes. But I've got leftover . Dear lord, the argument for innocence was about as if not more damning than the evidence against. wtf?


----------



## KOwrites

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Well. Yes. But I've got leftover . Dear lord, the argument for innocence was about as if not more damning than the evidence against. wtf?


Indeed. I'll tell you what; I got a chill when I saw his new persona come back online. Holy Toledo Batman ~ he can just pick a different persona and show up again here or someplace else. It makes me rethink about all the ways I allow myself to be contacted by people I really do not know and the havoc that can be wreaked if they so choose. And, we thought 1-star reviews were bad.


----------



## Darren Wearmouth

I feel like a bit of a fool for taking part in his 'Punch in the face' thread. I thought it was just a bit of tongue in cheek fun and said Ben Elton.  

What a revolting creature, well done for banning him.


----------



## Krista D. Ball

DAWearmouth said:


> I feel like a bit of a fool for taking part in his 'Punch in the face' thread. I thought it was just a bit of tongue in cheek fun and said Ben Elton.
> 
> What a revolting creature, well done for banning him.


It happens.


----------



## Hildred

I've been mostly lurking in this thread (like I do in most threads until I think  I have an actual opinion to add or just can't sit on my hands anymore because sjdkjkflka) and I feel like I should speak up now. I agree with the others who have said they have felt...unsafe here, at times. There have been times where I've disengaged not just because of time constraints but because I was feeling...I don't know what the word is. I've been on the internet and on internet forums for over a decade (and yes, this is one of the better ones I've hung out at) and can certainly laugh at a good derail or popcorn at snark going on full speed. But there are some things that cross my comfort line. Usually it has to do with feeling belittled or stalked. And in my experience (at other forums, because I've never tried it here for following reasons) there's no good in bringing attention to it to mods because it's either 1) Too personal for them to understand why it's bothering me and making me feel unsafe and 2) Have been outright told I'm being too sensitive and making myself into a victim. As somebody who HAS been the victim of hate crimes both as a woman and as a representative of multiple letters in LGBT, I can assure everyone I know the difference. 

I enjoy coming to KB because I truly believe it's the best place to get the latest in the self-publishing climate. The new rules, the new marketing tips, and even good discussions on what's working and what's not. I love that people here are really transparent with their results as it benefits us all. And as the (former, I've since retired because I just couldn't hack all the misogyny and homophobia my other mods let on and I was basically just locking threads in a vacuum) senior mod of another forum with thousands of active members, I can certainly appreciate all that goes on behind the scenes. I don't even disagree with the mods for the most part. But there have been many times where I've almost stopped coming here aside from lurking because I just didn't feel comfortable / safe. That's all I can really express about that without writing a further dissertation and giving out examples I am just not in the mood to think about right now.  

Basically, tl;dr, I'm finally speaking up in this thread to add my voice to the others who have expressed similar sentiments.


----------



## Bruce Rousseau

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Thanks for making an exception. This was the right decision, and should anything like this crop up again, I hope it will be easier to take action.


THIS


----------



## Lisa Grace

Monique said:


> I have been told repeatedly that I should stop coming here. I've defied this advice over and over, but I'm starting to think being here isn't good for me or for the board. I enjoy helping people. But, like David, I'm not sure it's fun anymore. The bad is outweighing the good for me lately. I don't always agree with the moderation here, but I respect that it's not my opinion that matters.
> 
> It's hard to move on from a place that meant so much to you when you were first starting out. And there are people here I love, but I find myself more frustrated than invigorated. Perhaps that's a sign?


I hope you stay. You add great insights. But...if something isn't fun anymore I can understand why you would want to stop.


----------



## HAGrant

Monique said:


> I have been told repeatedly that I should stop coming here. I've defied this advice over and over, but I'm starting to think being here isn't good for me or for the board. I enjoy helping people. But, like David, I'm not sure it's fun anymore. The bad is outweighing the good for me lately. I don't always agree with the moderation here, but I respect that it's not my opinion that matters.
> 
> It's hard to move on from a place that meant so much to you when you were first starting out. And there are people here I love, but I find myself more frustrated than invigorated. Perhaps that's a sign?


What a sad discussion. I just saw this. Monique, you're one of my favorites here... your intelligent comments are often based on real world experience and hit the nail on the head.

I was attacked by someone here and stopped posting as much, which was probably a good thing. This place is addictive.


----------



## Mathew Reuther

Bridgette was very uncomfortable after the thread referenced earlier. To the point where she wouldn't comment in threads he was posting in.

I'm all for heated debate. But I'm for heated debate on writing and publishing and marketing and all the related bits and bobs like covers or layout or whatnot.

If I ever make someone feel uncomfortable because of WHO THEY ARE then something has been miscommunicated. (I'll admit that I do make off-color jokes which have nothing to do with anything other than the fact that I have a screwy sense of humor.) I am not, and never have been about treating anyone as less than equal. I've always stood up for others when they've been mistreated, to the point where I've been involved in situations where my own physical safety was threatened because I didn't "just go along" or "keep quiet" when someone was being harassed.

I found it deeply, deeply disturbing that Glutton was allowed to continue after what I felt was a bad enough thread here, and an absolutely damning set of posts elsewhere. Maybe my response was colored by picking up Iron Bloom and reading a few pages before becoming sick. (I read a lot of things. I am not squeamish. It's the way in which it was written that made my skin crawl.) But the fact is that at the time I was shocked that he didn't get a time out. After all, *I* got sent to the corner for debating too hard.

I'd like to think that me being pushy and argumentative is on a whole different level than the outright misogyny he demonstrated. In fact I don't even have to ask that question. I know it is. My heart knows that as jerky as I can be sometimes in the heat of a good discussion, I at least respect all the other people involved as human beings.

I get WHOA. I totally believe it is a good rule. But all rules need exceptions, and an exception should have been made earlier in this case.

But folks, remember: moderators make mistakes. And they've said clearly: nobody comes back from permaban. That makes for a big weapon to casually wield. So while it really did suck that he wasn't timed out immediately, I find it hard to hammer the team for wanting to be absolutely sure he wasn't redeemable. (And yeah, we as users can say he wasn't, but we don't have the responsibility of actually enforcing the bans, and I know from experience that sitting in a position of power and knowing when to use it is a lot harder than not having the power and having nothing more than an opinion to wave around.)

So, thank you for banning him. I know at least that Bridgette will feel better. (And if I am being honest, even I felt unclean every time I've dealt with him since George blew the whistle.)

In any case, I will miss you all for the next week. We're very excited (slash dreading two under two in the car) to be headed to a double dress wedding in Portland tomorrow.


----------



## Guest

I requested info. and help here for the first time a few months ago.  There was no problem then. 

But, I was aware of the misogyny problem here about a year or so ago. I saw some really horrible things here as a lurker. For example, anytime a thread was started on the subject of Chick Lit or Romance, there was poster who would call women all kinds of disgusting names (another sick fetish behavior, by the way) and the people trying to have the discussion would complain, but it was done in such a way (apparently, if you put the obscenities in quotes, it's okay) that it apparently didn't violate the terms and so, it was allowed to go on.

When I posted here for the first time probably late last year, I hadn't been lurking much, but it looked like things were flowing pretty smoothly.

Then, in a shock moment, I made a discovery that one of my books was stolen and resold somewhere. I was attacked right and left. Followed into other threads, berated and accused of things by a poster here who is very prolific.

It creates a very unwelcoming, unfriendly and truly hostile environment. Then other people come along and see someone being attacked and if they enjoy that kind of thing, they pile on, too. 

When I see that the criminal element here is cleaned up (you've got a handful of very active people here who are aggressive and criminally-minded) - when that ceases to be the normative behavior here, I'll consider posting more questions and (I hope) helpful answers to other people's questions, if it's something I have experience with, because to me that's the point of a forum. 

I am truly grateful to the people who have been helpful here and there have been quite a few - especially Victoria Champion, I haven't forgotten you. That really was a shock moment for  me a few weeks ago and I literally had nowhere else to turn in that moment. For that I'm grateful. It was a simple thing Victoria said, but really helpful to me in a moment when I just couldn't think straight. I appreciate all of you who have been helpful to me. 

But, there are some sick people who feed on other people's grief or misfortune. I think that's partly what happened in my case. Weed out those people, and this could be a top notch place.


----------



## jnfr

I've been thinking about something that Half-Orc the Dalglish said in his first post in this thread earlier today, about how self-publishing has changed and matured since the early days of the WC.

And thinking about a friend of mine who wrote a freelance piece recently about talking with her kids about the fact that they don't have money right now, since she and her husband have both lost work in the recent recession and times are tight, as they are for many of us. She wrote it and saw it in print and though she's been writing about her family for years, she was completely freaked that she'd been so open about her financial situation.

Money is one of the hardest things to talk about, more difficult than sex for most people. And self-publishing, as it has matured, has become a real source of income for lots of folks. Some people making coffee money, some paying the mortgage, and some few really getting a jackpot out of the thing in a way that wasn't possible before. It would be very easy for success, and cash, to turn this place into a roiling pool of sharks.

Given that, it's remarkable, amazing really, that this forum manages to remain as strong and as friendly as it does, with so many writers here at all stages of our careers. It is impressive that we are generally very supportive of each other, cheering successes whether tiny, medium, or extra-Big-Gulp.

Not every time or always, but under the circumstances it's an important achievement, and I really hope we all continue to keep the space useful in that way, even as publishing continues to morph while we work.

Edit to add: A couple posts slipped in. I am also very happy that this situation has been dealt with, since it was disturbing to me too.


----------



## Caddy

Yikes. I've been busy all day and came back to see all of this. I had not seen the posts Glutton had made in that other thread and now I clicked there and feel like throwing up. And here I had posted that he had never offended me (or been mean...something) yesterday.  As a woman who has been mugged and also almost raped, that post really, really bothered me. I can't believe it took so long to ban him. I'm glad he is banned, but it really disturbs me that it didn't happen THAT DAY.  Wow.  Just wow.


----------



## Mathew Reuther

Professor, you can say Mathew Reuther if you want to. It's not like I'm going to somehow not know who you're talking about. Or anyone else is going to be confused who read the threads.

But I post in a lot of threads. I'm not following you. I'm posting where I am interested. As Ben Brewer said once in a mighty tirade against my evil: only erotica is safe. (And for how long? Stu Thews is such a tempting penname.)

I respect your right to do as you please with your work. That has never been said any differently than I'm saying it now. 

I, again, object to being called a criminal, and invite you to once again consider that at many points in history we have had laws which were foolish, misguided, or ineffectual. Now is no exception. Where we differ is on a philosophical level. You'd like to make me a criminal and you a hero.

I'm happy to be Jean Valjean, Javert.


----------



## Becca Mills

ProfessorAplomb said:


> I requested info. and help here for the first time a few months ago. There was no problem then.
> 
> But, I was aware of the misogyny problem here about a year or so ago. I saw some really horrible things here as a lurker. For example, anytime a thread was started on the subject of Chick Lit or Romance, there was poster who would call women all kinds of disgusting names (another sick fetish behavior, by the way) and the people trying to have the discussion would complain, but it was done in such a way (apparently, if you put the obscenities in quotes, it's okay) that it apparently didn't violate the terms and so, it was allowed to go on.
> 
> When I posted here for the first time probably late last year, I hadn't been lurking much, but it looked like things were flowing pretty smoothly.
> 
> Then, in a shock moment, I made a discovery that one of my books was stolen and resold somewhere. I was attacked right and left. Followed into other threads, berated and accused of things by a poster here who is very prolific.
> 
> It creates a very unwelcoming, unfriendly and truly hostile environment. Then other people come along and see someone being attacked and if they enjoy that kind of thing, they pile on, too.
> 
> When I see that the criminal element here is cleaned up (you've got a handful of very active people here who are aggressive and criminally-minded) - when that ceases to the the normative behavior here, I'll consider posting more questions and (I hope) helpful answers to other people's questions, if it's something I have experience with, because to me that's the point of a forum.
> 
> I am truly grateful to the people who have been helpful here and there have been quite a few - especially Victoria Champion, I haven't forgotten you. That really was a shock moment for me a few weeks ago and I literally had nowhere else to turn in that moment. For that I'm grateful. It was a simple thing you said, but really helpful to me in a moment when I just couldn't think straight.
> 
> But, there are sick people who feed on other people's grief of misfortune. I think that's partly what happened in my case. Weed out those people, and this could be a top notch place.


I generally think of myself as a run-of-the-mill wife, mother, and worker-bee. And boringly middle-aged, to boot. It's rather exciting to be labeled a "criminal element." Do I get a plaque?


----------



## Becca Mills

Mathew Reuther said:


> Professor, you can say Mathew Reuther if you want to. It's not like I'm going to somehow not know who you're talking about. Or anyone else is going to be confused who read the threads.
> 
> But I post in a lot of threads. I'm not following you. I'm posting where I am interested. As Ben Brewer said once in a mighty tirade against my evil: only erotica is safe. (And for how long? Stu Thews is such a tempting penname.)
> 
> I respect your right to do as you please with your work. That has never been said any differently than I'm saying it now.
> 
> I, again, object to being called a criminal, and invite you to once again consider that at many points in history we have had laws which were foolish, misguided, or ineffectual. Now is no exception. Where we differ is on a philosophical level. You'd like to make me a criminal and you a hero.
> 
> I'm happy to be Jean Valjean, Javert.


Oh, it's just you, Mathew? I thought the Professor was calling all of us let's-not-have-a-shit-fit about piracy types "criminally minded." If it's just about you, I'm mightily disappointed.


----------



## Caddy

-fit about piracy types "criminally minded." If it's just about you, I'm mightily disappointed.]Oh, it's just you, Mathew? I thought the Professor was calling all of us let's-not-have-a-[crap]-fit about piracy types "criminally minded." If it's just about you, I'm mightily disappointed.


I, for one, am relieved. Perhaps YOU look good in stripes, but I sure don't!


----------



## Mathew Reuther

Becca Mills said:


> Oh, it's just you, Mathew? I thought the Professor was calling all of us let's-not-have-a-[crap]-fit about piracy types "criminally minded." If it's just about you, I'm mightily disappointed.


It's about all of us dirty scalawags, but this part: "Then, in a shock moment, I made a discovery that one of my books was stolen and resold somewhere. I was attacked right and left. Followed into other threads, berated and accused of things by a poster here who is very prolific." . . . that's a direct reference to me, I'm fairly sure.

You're definitely on the list to be keelhauled though. Don't worry, Becca.

As Terrence said (wisely) earlier some of what makes people feel unhappy is the difference of opinion inherent in a widening pool of posters. This is an excellent example.



Caddy said:


> I, for one, am relieved. Perhaps YOU look good in stripes, but I sure don't!


That made me spit soda.


----------



## Caddy

Thinking about people who should be banned: I won't name names, as I don't think we are supposed to, but what happened to the dude who always talked about his life in the porno industry and all of his drug taking? His comments about women were very offensive at times, and I complained, but he still stayed. His bragging was over the top and his book was to come out on Valentine's Day. He all of a sudden disappeared in January. Did he finally get banned? Or is he too busy raking in all that dough from that first book of his that was going to knock the e-book industry into another solar system?


----------



## Victoria Champion

ProfessorAplomb said:


> I am truly grateful to the people who have been helpful here and there have been quite a few - especially Victoria Champion, I haven't forgotten you. That really was a shock moment for me a few weeks ago and I literally had nowhere else to turn in that moment. For that I'm grateful. It was a simple thing Victoria said, but really helpful to me in a moment when I just couldn't think straight. I appreciate all of you who have been helpful to me.


That's kind of you to say, thank you. And you're welcome.

As for the other concerns in your post, consider utilizing the ignore function, thereby moderating your own experience. This will allow you to only interact with those you find agreeable, and visa versa.


----------



## Nathan Elliott

Caddy said:


> ... what happened to the dude who always talked about his life in the porno industry ...


Yeah, he was banned.


----------



## Guest

Victoria Champion said:


> That's kind of you to say, thank you. And you're welcome.
> 
> As for the other concerns in your post, consider utilizing the ignore function, thereby moderating your own experience. This will allow you to only interact with those you find agreeable, and visa versa.


Thanks, Victoria. I have had to make use of the ignore function a few times. It helps, but it's not comfortable to come here and post anything, now. I read posts - I lurk, especially lately because of all the drama - it's like a train wreck you just can't stop looking at it. I've even PMed a couple of people when I thought I could help with something, but I really don't enjoy having to add to my ignore list.

I don't follow this forum regularly, but they all go through phases like this. The overall tone of a forum is set by the moderators. And, If they allow abuses to go on and people put up with the abuse, they get as much abuse as they're willing to put up with.

And, we can see from the posts the past few pages, there are people who get their thrills abusing other people in various ways. These people are sick.. they're deviants. And, I just don't really want to associate with that.

I had to ask a serious question about something earlier today and I, fortunately, found another forum to do it in. No one attacked me. How about that!


----------



## Becca Mills

Mathew Reuther said:


> You're definitely on the list to be keelhauled though. Don't worry, Becca.


Well that sounds exciting, but I suppose it would, given that I'm a deviant.


----------



## Mathew Reuther

Becca Mills said:


> Well that sounds exciting, but I suppose it would, given that I'm a deviant.


Is this what qualifies as middle-aged wish-fulfilment? A fantasy life as a deviant criminal?


----------



## Becca Mills

Mathew Reuther said:


> Is this what qualifies as middle-aged wish-fulfilment? A fantasy life as a deviant criminal?


Fantasy? What're you calling fantasy, bub? Are you trying to steal my identity as a deviant criminal, you ... you ... devianter criminal?


----------



## WHDean

I didn’t realize what all the fuss was about until now. My powers of foresight being what they are, I managed to avoid the pathos-play from the get-go.

But it sure puts my “Do women and men like different covers?” thread into perspective, now doesn’t it?


----------



## vrabinec

Mathew Reuther said:


> Is this what qualifies as middle-aged wish-fulfilment? A fantasy life as a deviant criminal?


This is her dream. To be in jail with a hunk of an angel as she writes country and western songs.


----------



## J Dean

What needs to be done needs to be done.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Someone had asked about this, and just to clarify, the posts that David Dalglish posted from the banned member were *not* from these boards. 

He's banned now, and won't be back. It is possible for him to re-register, but if that occurs it will not take long for us to find that out and apply a ban again.


----------



## Becca Mills

vrabinec said:


> This is her dream. To be in jail with a hunk of an angel as she writes country and western songs.


Oh yeah. Bring it on.


----------



## Caddy

> Yeah, he was banned.


Aha. So we will only hear about him when we see all the tv coverage about his book I guess.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell

Caddy said:


> Aha. So we will only hear about him when we see all the tv coverage about his book I guess.


*snorts* There are so many things I would love to say about both those posters, but as they are no longer with us, I fear WHOA would now apply.

I'm definitely thinking them though....


----------



## vrabinec

Caddy said:


> Aha. So we will only hear about him when we see all the tv coverage about his book I guess.


Currently sitting at 1,831,493 in Books with 1 review, a 1 star. At this point, in his head-to-head challenge against Elle, I think he's a little behind. But, he might make a big push soon.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

Harvey said:


> Someone had asked about this, and just to clarify, the posts that David Galglish posted from the banned member were *not* from these boards.
> 
> He's banned now, and won't be back. It is possible for him to re-register, but if that occurs it will not take long for us to find that out and apply a ban again.


Who the heck is David Galglish? Sounds like that jerk needs banned as well, trying to steal on my good reputation.


----------



## KBoards Admin

^ Oops! Apologies. Corrected.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

Harvey said:


> ^ Oops! Apologies. Corrected.


Sheesh, I vanish off the face of KB for one measly year and you already forget about me 

Oh, and these smiles are all kinds of wtf.


----------



## Jeff

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Oh, and these smiles are all kinds of wtf.


I thought creepy was right up your alley.


----------



## Becca Mills

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Sheesh, I vanish off the face of KB for one measly year and you already forget about me
> 
> Oh, and these smiles are all kinds of wtf.


Hey, "D" and "G" are practically nextdoor on the keyboard. It's a socially acceptable typo. And, um ... no dissing the smilies allowed! Because they're here 'cause of me, and I'm a little sensitive about it, okay??


----------



## NathanWrann

Harvey said:


> Someone had asked about this, and just to clarify, the posts that David Dalglish posted from the banned member were *not* from these boards.
> 
> He's banned now, and won't be back. It is possible for him to re-register, but if that occurs it will not take long for us to find that out and apply a ban again.


I thought Harvey meant that David Dalglish was banned.


----------



## NathanWrann

vrabinec said:


> Currently sitting at 1,831,493 in Books with 1 review, a 1 star. At this point, in his head-to-head challenge against Elle, I think he's a little behind. But, he might make a big push soon.


Looks like his pron connections are really helping him light the world on fire.


----------



## Nick Endi Webb

Who's David Dalglish?

David Daglish on the other hand, that's a fine upstanding fellow.


----------



## Caddy

> Looks like his pron connections are really helping him light the world on fire.


Well, to be fair, he probably just needs a video trailer. You know, with that good 'ol porn music playing in the background...(You hear it. I know you do.)


----------



## DarkScribe

Harvey said:


> I've decided to make an exception to our WHOA policy, and the member of concern has been banned.
> 
> I do object, though, to the way the actions of me and our moderators on this issue have been characterized in this thread.


Banned eh?

Back in his early days he declared me his "Official board enemy", something that quite pleased me. I guess that now I will have to make to with my unofficial ones - a retrograde step.


----------



## Steve Silkin

A few things to say here:

It took until page 14 for me to find out what was really going on. Oh, OK: Now I understand. I also would've been upset that it went on that long and I can understand the feelings and frustrations of others while the situation degenerated. But the moderators are careful and I respect that, too.

More important: On this page, several posts have referenced someone who used to post here and was banned. I am going to politely urge: Please don't make fun of this person; it pains me deeply to see him mocked. If you'd like more of an explanation, please send me a PM.


----------



## DarkScribe

gluttonthephoenix said:


> You know if you read this post of mine on Deviantart, you can clearly see that what I really like is the _toughness_ shown by the characters in these situations: http://gluttun.deviantart.com/art/Hitting-video-game-girls-when-they-re-down-292773284
> 
> I write stories about women who take a lot of damage and _overcome_ it to win, and I haven't harmed or tried to harm anyone... most of my posts besides my overenthusiastic gushing about my work are trying to be helpful. I don't understand why I'm being banned for being weird off the board (okay, and a little on it)?


I am not a popular person in many ways, I am blunt, I don't sugar coat, I am anti-PC and I have a thick hide. There is little that offends me, but you succeeded. After reading some of your posts I felt soiled.

I might be blunt, rude in the eyes of many, but I use common courtesy and I have a tremendous respect for women, young and old. I have an amazing wife and seven daughters, five natural and two adopted. I was raised in an all female household, my mother, (she was a magistrate and a writer) sisters, aunts, plus a French (and feisty) grandmother. Your attitude to women in the way you discuss harm to them revolts me. You focus on the harm they suffer, not their victories.

I am glad that Harvey has responded to the clear consensus of feeling and acted upon it.

Though I might well be also banned one day - as I cannot adopt a PC attitude. Nor do I want to do so. I have thirty odd years of experience in all aspects of publishing, am willing to share or aid in any way that I can, but I will not play games.

I am here to garner some understanding into the attitudes, approaches, expectations, and realities of Indie writers as we (my employers & I) are intending to move into a completely new field with regard to digital/print publishing services later this year. I am not here to learn about the basics of writing, editing or publishing. I am arrogant enough to feel that my tertiary education, my company position, and near thirty years of experience has covered those grounds.


----------



## DarkScribe

Harvey said:


> He can't hear you, David. He's been blocked, from even signing in as guest.


I didn't realise that you blocked at IP address level. That's great. (Unless he has dial-up or a non-permanent allocation.) He even made me feel uncomfortable although I did make an attempt to ignore that as no one else seemed to (openly) object.


----------



## KBoards Admin

DarkScribe said:


> I didn't realise that you blocked at IP address level. That's great. (Unless he has dial-up or a non-permanent allocation.) He even made me feel uncomfortable although I did make an attempt to ignore that as no one else seemed to (openly) object.


We are able to block IP... although he apparently used an IP-cloaker to bypass the ban and register a second account... which we then banned again. That happens, but at least it's easy to re-apply the ban.


----------



## Lisa Grace

Caddy said:


> Well, to be fair, he probably just needs a video trailer. You know, with that good 'ol porn music playing in the background...(You hear it. I know you do.)


He did a book trailer and posted it under his new avatar name here. He really thought it would drive sales. I haven't seen a trailer yet that makes a difference in sales.


----------



## Guest

A couple of things I find interesting about this thread about tone is that I post about my experience and almost like they were cued, members of my newly acquired "fan club" jump out and present themselves - right in front of the mods, who I know are well aware of the problem and nothing is said or done about this. Is this really the "tone" you want here? 

What is, also, interesting is that the people who do this are okay with having pictures, presumably of themselves, with their names or pen names and links to their web sites and their wares right next to all of this - like they're proud of themselves. 

I don't understand why you would allow this kind of thing to go on, Harvey and other mods. Is this the tone? You have to have some kind of on-going over the top offensive thing going on before you take any decisive action to clean up your problem. You have a nice forum here and you let this kind of thing go on and on - that's a real shame.

And, I don't understand the benefit of being hateful and abusive in a forum with your name, face, books and other pertinent information right there for everyone to see.


----------



## Ignis_Designs

So 18 pages in, my head is spinning. 

All I keep seeing, is if someone is new to this, they had better damn well not disagree with someone who has been around a long time.

Might as well not even bother.


----------



## DarkScribe

ProfessorAplomb said:


> A couple of things I find interesting about this thread about tone is that I post about my experience and almost like they were cued, members of my newly acquired "fan club" jump out and present themselves - right in front of the mods, who I know are well aware of the problem and nothing is said or done about this. Is this really the "tone" you want here?
> 
> What is, also, interesting is that the people who do this are okay with having pictures, presumably of themselves, with their names or pen names and links to their web sites and their wares right next to all of this - like they're proud of themselves.
> 
> I don't understand why you would allow this kind of thing to go on, Harvey and other mods. Is this the tone? You have to have some kind of on-going over the top offensive thing going on before you take any decisive action to clean up your problem. You have a nice forum here and you let this kind of thing go on and on - that's a real shame.
> 
> And, I don't understand the benefit of being hateful and abusive in a forum with your name, face, books and other pertinent information right there for everyone to see.


Professor, perhaps a little more aplomb on your part would help.

I have disagreed with Matthew before, but it doesn't mean that I now regard all posts from him as negative or an attack. I think that he is a nice guy with a lot to offer. Disagreeing with him just means that we have crossed some ground where our opinions differ. On other issues we are in full agreement. If you recall in that thread I pretty much agreed that regardless of how you describe it, piracy is theft. I also know that there is little that can be done - effectively - to stop it. Ignoring the issue can be galling, but it is more effective in a personal sense than obsessing about it. People who fail to obsess about an issue are not necessarily supporting it, nor are they criminals.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell

ProfessorAplomb said:


> A couple of things I find interesting about this thread about tone is that I post about my experience and almost like they were cued, members of my newly acquired "fan club" jump out and present themselves - right in front of the mods, who I know are well aware of the problem and nothing is said or done about this. Is this really the "tone" you want here?
> 
> What is, also, interesting is that the people who do this are okay with having pictures, presumably of themselves, with their names or pen names and links to their web sites and their wares right next to all of this - like they're proud of themselves.
> 
> I don't understand why you would allow this kind of thing to go on, Harvey and other mods. Is this the tone? You have to have some kind of on-going over the top offensive thing going on before you take any decisive action to clean up your problem. You have a nice forum here and you let this kind of thing go on and on - that's a real shame.
> 
> And, I don't understand the benefit of being hateful and abusive in a forum with your name, face, books and other pertinent information right there for everyone to see.


Professor Aplomb, I don't know you from Adam, I didn't participate in any of the threads you're talking about, and I don't know any of the posters you're describing that well, so I have no stake in any of this.

With that said, I will point out that you did in a sense 'cue' the posters you're talking about. You presented your version of events involving them, and they responded with their own. I have no idea how valid or invalid your complaints about them are, but I will say it seems disingenuous to act surprised that people responded in-thread to your public discussion of them.


----------



## Guest

DarkScribe said:


> Professor, perhaps a little more aplomb on your part would help.
> 
> I have disagreed with Matthew before, but it doesn't mean that I now regard all posts from him as negative or an attack. I think that he is a nice guy with a lot to offer. Disagreeing with him just means that we have crossed some ground where our opinions differ. On other issues we are in full agreement. If you recall in that thread I pretty much agreed that regardless of how you describe it, piracy is theft. I also know that there is little that can be done - effectively - to stop it. Ignoring the issue can be galling, but it is more effective in a personal sense than obsessing about it. People who fail to obsess about an issue are not necessarily supporting it, nor are they criminals.


DarkScribe, that may be good advice, but you may not be aware of what has actually transpired. I was attacked not because I was railing against piracy like one of the gang has accused me of but because I asked a question about the pirating and resell of my own book. And, it was a pretty vicious attack. It continued on another unrelated thread... and now if I post anything, I just wait for it... 'cause it's gotten very predictable.

And, now they're having a discussion about tone and the mobbing behavior is going on, again, right under the nose of the people claiming they want to change the tone here and nothing is said or done.


----------



## Guest

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Professor Aplomb, I don't know you from Adam, I didn't participate in any of the threads you're talking about, and I don't know any of the posters you're describing that well, so I have no stake in any of this.
> 
> With that said, I will point out that you did in a sense 'cue' the posters you're talking about. You presented your version of events involving them, and they responded with their own. I have no idea how valid or invalid your complaints about them are, but I will say it seems disingenuous to act surprised that people responded in-thread to your public discussion of them.


Well, that is the discussion in this thread - the "tone" - and people sharing their experiences. That was mine.

And, this is characteristic of this forum... I tell about my experience - something that happened to me - and I am attacked.

I wasn't having this problem here when I posted a few months ago... So, what has changed?


----------



## alicepattinson

Whew! I dont know where to start reading. 18 pages, so loooooooong already. hihihi


----------



## DarkScribe

Ignis_Designs said:


> So 18 pages in, my head is spinning.
> 
> All I keep seeing, is if someone is new to this, they had better d*mn well not disagree with someone who has been around a long time.
> 
> Might as well not even bother.


Length of time as member has little to do with it. As most people are pointing out, the Mods are fair, and if you disagree - stand up and be heard. I haven't been here that long, not much over six months, and I don't have a problem disagreeing - if that is how I feel. I doubt that there is a single issue that will reach consensus - it would be abnormal and a little spooky if it did.

I have often made it clear that I regard Political Correctness as a blight on modern society. One of the many negative side effects is that when people are always pretending to be nice as a matter of course, when someone is truly honest many will regard it as an attack. They regard an unadulterated opinion as "this person doesn't care enough about my feelings to lie, they have actually said something that although possibly true, upsets me". "How outrageous"!


----------



## cdvsmx5

The overeater could/should have been banned for self-promotion.


----------



## DarkScribe

alicepattinson said:


> Whew! I dont know where to start reading. 18 pages, so loooooooong already. hihihi


Clearly this thread is cathartic - a pressure release valve. Good for the forum.


----------



## Patty Jansen

Anyone want some popcorn?


----------



## DarkScribe

Patty Jansen said:


> Anyone want some popcorn?


Is it cheese flavoured?


----------



## CraigInOregon

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Sheesh, I vanish off the face of KB for one measly year and you already forget about me
> 
> Oh, and these smiles are all kinds of wtf.


Who are you, again?


----------



## Susanne O

OMG.

This thread...  

I'm going back to page one to read it again...


----------



## unkownwriter

[quote snip snip

I, for one, am relieved. Perhaps YOU look good in stripes, but I sure don't! 
[/quote]

Can we have vertical stripes? Because, you know, horizontal ones make me look fatter than I already am.


----------



## Patty Jansen

I'm hugely surprised that no one has locked the thread yet.

This thread has more slopes and angles than a geometry book.

Who wants coffee?


----------



## JRTomlin

DarkScribe said:


> Length of time as member has little to do with it. As most people are pointing out, the Mods are fair, and if you disagree - stand up and be heard. I haven't been here that long, not much over six months, and I don't have a problem disagreeing - if that is how I feel. I doubt that there is a single issue that will reach consensus - it would be abnormal and a little spooky if it did.
> 
> I have often made it clear that I regard Political Correctness as a blight on modern society. One of the many negative side effects is that when people are always pretending to be nice as a matter of course, when someone is truly honest many will regard it as an attack. They regard an unadulterated opinion as "this person doesn't care enough about my feelings to lie, they have actually said something that although possibly true, upsets me". "How outrageous"!


You seem like a decent person so I find myself baffled by your conviction that the world is better if people can be verbally demeaned. I have been called a number of names in my life, everything from "cheap Jock" to "*****" to "chick" and more which for civilities sake I won't list. All were meant to put me in my supposedly inferior place.

How that is some form of "honesty" escapes me.

ETA: Patty, popcorn is what is needed.


----------



## Susanne O

I am very fond of KB. I know there have been problems but with a forum of this magnitude how could there possibly not be? So many writers from so many different countries and walks of life. So many personalities and egos. It's a huge, churning pot of hot stew. I was also friends with someone who got banned. Unfairly in my opinion. But he broke the rules in his arrogance so I suppose it had to happen. (He is not so friendly toward me anymore but that's a different story).

To me, KB is not particularly 'friendly', as it's too big to form close or even not so close friendships. 

BUT when I wonder about something, have a problem with writing, publishing, KDP is stuck, need information, a chance to do an interview, am looking for a cover designer or need help with formatting.... OR any other problems too numerous to mention, I always look in here and nearly always find a solution.

That's what so unique about KB and especially the Writers' Cafe. I am so grateful that it exists. Don't how I would have managed without it. (and I don't envy the moderators, who have a nearly impossible job to keep the peace).


----------



## unkownwriter

Well, it took a while, but now I finally know what triggered all of this. Wow. I only read about a page of the referenced thread, and missed a lot. 

But, that and T. L.'s post, reminded me of some stuff I'd forgotten about, things that had been going on that I just shook my head at while wondering why the mods were letting that kind of behavior to go on.

I think I overlooked some things because this past year or so has been pretty much hellish for me, and I put any discomfort I felt down to what was going on in my personal life. For the most part, I assumed that I was misreading the posts. 

Now I know better, so thanks for opening my eyes. This whole thread might have been better if it had started out with specifics, rather than just being a general "somebody has been behaving badly, so everybody gets the lecture" thing.

This has gotten me thinking about another forum I'm on, where I haven't hesitated lately in reporting members. To be honest, it's unmoderated, so somebody has to step in, and I guess I let stuff slide here because we had mods.

I won't do that again. From now on, when I see a poster stepping too far out of line -- especially if it's on a regular basis, I'll hit the alarm button.

Don't get me wrong, I still think this is the best forum for indie writers. For the most part, the tone and attitude of the members is fine, and truly much better than what you see elsewhere. 

Things slip through, and I think we can all agree that it will happen again. It's the nature of the web, and as Half-Orc said, new people are coming on board the self-publishing train, with new attitudes and expectations, different baggage all together.

What matters is how we go forward from here.


----------



## L.M. Pfalz

I gotta say, I really like the debate threads, as long as they don't get personal. Seeing different viewpoints on controversial matters is always food for thought for an open mind. Once it turns personal though, I'm done, whether I'm posting or lurking. It's easier for me to ignore someone who, IMO, crosses the line, than to continue to read things that I know will upset me. 

I think it's important to remember that discussions here are as much for the people watching (lurking), as they are for those posting. Keeping it constructive and civil benefits everyone and helps people make informed decisions about various topics. If someone only wants to have one opinion and have everyone agree with them, it's probably better to post to your personal blog than to a forum that encourages discussion.


----------



## Zelah Meyer

It's worth remembering that this isn't just about one person.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Zelah Meyer said:


> It's worth remembering that this isn't just about one person.


No. It's not.

It's about a LOT of you.

Honestly. . . . I am just in awe of the direction this thread has taken.

And not in a good way.


----------



## vrabinec

Caddy said:


> Well, to be fair, he probably just needs a video trailer. You know, with that good 'ol porn music playing in the background...(You hear it. I know you do.)


He actually made one that was pretty cool. Spent $1500 on it.

Some people asked for the link to the book:
http://www.amazon.com/City-Singles-Jason-Bryan/dp/0991825705/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1363777912&sr=1-1&keywords=sicklove


----------



## Zelah Meyer

Ann in Arlington said:


> No. It's not.
> 
> It's about a LOT of you.
> 
> Honestly. . . . I am just in awe of the direction this thread has taken.
> 
> And not in a good way.


OK - now this REALLY makes me feel unwelcome.

This thread is about the tone of the boards. Several of us have shared that we feel that people who make the board unpleasant for others are allowed to get away with it for rather too long. If you try to chase us away and scold us for sharing that fact, then you're attacking the symptom, not the problem.


----------



## JadeLogan

This is so funny - sheesh!!!!  There are strongly opinionated people still arguing over things which is the very reason why the thread was created haha  **Head shaking in astonishment** 

There r posters saying they'll never return (who blames them), Certain 'respected' members have resorted to racist terms (Scalawag) but will never be banned because it's just ""their opinion"", a violence against women thread has resurged (is there not a way to just delete that thread?)

Do you ever get the feeling that you maybe should not have started this thread and just kept it between the mods to deal with or kept it as a small sticky?

**chuckling over the irony of this thread**


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> Well, it took a while, but now I finally know what triggered all of this. Wow. I only read about a page of the referenced thread, and missed a lot.]
> [Now I know better, so thanks for opening my eyes. This whole thread might have been better if it had started out with specifics, rather than just being a general "somebody has been behaving badly, so everybody gets the lecture" thing.


To be clear: This whole thread was NOT started because of what was going on with glutton; it was started exactly for the reason Harvey stated; we had seen the tone of the Café deteriorating.

However, eventually, people started airing issues they have with us here and I'm fine with that--we can't fix problems we don't know exist. I can't try to become a better moderator if I don't get feedback. Not saying I agree with all feedback, anymore than y'all agree with all the critiques of your work; but I take it seriously. I don't blow off bad reviews.



Sheila_Guthrie said:


> I won't do that again. From now on, when I see a poster stepping too far out of line -- especially if it's on a regular basis, I'll hit the alarm button.


Thank you. There was exactly one report of glutton's posts for the tone they had, just prior to the blowup in the thread that was cited here. *Please use the report button*. We can't be everywhere. And the report button is better than a PM, because it goes to multiple people. If you think further explanation is needed, by all means send a PM, too. (And I know sometimes people PM me because they aren't sure something rises to a reportable action; if you're uncomfortable with the report feature, a PM is better than us not knowing.)

Betsy


----------



## Wansit

I went back to page 11 and re-read everything. Just...wow. Some of the threads referenced were absolutely horrible. 

And Jade - thanks for the history lesson. I had to look up Sca****g to figure out why it's derogatory. I just thought it was a historic euphemism for degenerate. Now, I know.

Also - I've never used the Moderator's report button. If I saw something I didn't like I would ignore the thread and continue on my merry way. If I see something now, I'll say something. Harvey/Betsy/Ann thanks for all your hard work.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Do you think it's time to lock this thread


----------



## Caddy

> More important: On this page, several posts have referenced someone who used to post here and was banned. I am going to politely urge: Please don't make fun of this person; it pains me deeply to see him mocked. If you'd like more of an explanation, please send me a PM.


I don't need more of an explanation. I also don't know which person you are referring to, but I know that I was making fun of one (not glutton)last night and, although the guy was arrogant and full of himself, it was wrong of me. He had irritated me so much that it just happened without thinking. I SHOULD have thought about it, as I myself was made fun of a lot in grade school. I hoped I was bigger than that, but obivously I'm not always.

Anyway, this same guy whose book I asked about presented a lot of attitudes that were upsetting, BUT in his defense I will say that one day he and I actually did have a decent discussion about-guess what- the craft of writing! That is one one thread or another and I kept thinking "this can't be the same guy". So, I do want to say he did surprise me there.

I also want to say that I don't support his attitudes or stances about women, but I shouldn't have made him a subject of humiliation, especially since he isn't here to defend himself. It's easy to say things about a person behind their back. Shame on him for the things he says about women and drugs...and shame on me for lowering myself to the level I did. I apologize for that. I'm a better person than that usually, not obviously not always.


----------



## thesmallprint

If my mental arithmetic is correct, there are well over 2 million posts on Kboards. There are 3 moderators.

Joe


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

JadeLogan said:


> Certain 'respected' members have resorted to racist terms (Scalawag) but will never be banned because it's just ""their opinion""





Wansit said:


> And Jade - thanks for the history lesson. I had to look up Sca****g to figure out why it's derogatory. I just thought it was a historic euphemism for degenerate. Now, I know.


Could you explain it to me? Jade didn't say it was derogatory, but racist... I haven't seen a definition yet that says that. Yes, it says the secondary, historical definition of scalawag (really, no need for cloaking the term) is a white southerner who collaborated with northern Republicans during the Reconstruction. (US Civil War); but the primary definition is "a person who behaves badly but in an amusingly mischievous rather than harmful way; a rascal." So what am I missing?? The fact that it only applied to white southerners? So, I guess that's racist...but not the primary definition, either. Maybe because I'm the child of northern parents, I don't see using it as a bannable offense.

Betsy


----------



## Ell

I had an issue once. Wanted to tell a guy he had "some good sheet" in his tread but it turned automatically to "crap". Not the same thing at all.


----------



## vrabinec

Steve Silkin said:


> More important: On this page, several posts have referenced someone who used to post here and was banned. I am going to politely urge: Please don't make fun of this person; it pains me deeply to see him mocked. If you'd like more of an explanation, please send me a PM.


I talk to him on another forum. He's a big boy. He knows he's the one who threw down the challenge to Elle, telling her she was writing too fast for it to be any good and that because he was taking his time with his book it would better. And just to be clear, I like him, in spite of how much of an ass he could be sometimes.


----------



## Howietzer

Lynn McNamee said:


> I've been coming to this forum for over 4 years.
> 
> I've sworn to stop posting more times than I can count.
> 
> I think the first time I swore that was when an author called me an ignorant cat lady (in so many words) for not giving his/her book a favorable review. Oh, and then there was that stalking one. The mods were really helpful with those, but I still got tired of the abuse.
> 
> Do I feel welcome here now? Not anymore. I haven't felt welcome since I stopped reviewing books. I guess I wore out my usefulness after that for a lot of the authors.
> 
> Lately, I just feel as though my being on this forum is causing some people to get very upset... not at what I'm saying, but by my very existence. At first, I thought maybe it was just my imagination, but then clients started calling me to ask, "What did you do to XXX? He/She is following you on KB and making snarky and rude posts every time you post." I've been urged to report it and/or quit coming here.
> 
> Why haven't I reported it? Well, some people are really good at stalking and making others feel unwelcome. They don't cross any reportable lines. They make sure to keep the nuances where only long-time members will notice the nastiness, and if the person being harassed complains, he or she will only look paranoid.
> 
> So why do I keep coming back? Because I got my start here. Because I still have many friends here (though that number is starting to dwindle as those people get tired of the <fill in the blank>). Because I love authors. Because I love reading. Because every now and then I help an author and he/she says "thank you" instead of getting angry. Because the mods do their very best to make sure this is a nice place to be.
> 
> Just as in everything from forums to the workplace, you can't please everyone.


Lynn,

You probably don't remember our skype session (as I'm sure you've done many since then) but I have to say, I really appreciate your help. Your honesty and overall CONSTRUCTIVE criticism actually motivated my co-author and I to push forward with our attempts to release a book.

Although that discussion did not occur on this forum, KB is where I found you and RedAdept. If you hadn't posted here, that conversation would not have happened, and that would have been a sad thing.

So, shame on you for even _thinking_ of not posting here any longer *(and that goes for the rest of you "oldies" or "newbies").* I've learned a lot from you people, good and bad. I wouldn't change that, even if it gets a bit sticky around here at times (I should know). 

Thanks again Lynn


----------



## Gennita Low

After reading this thread from where I posted (very, very early on), I want to say to the mods--seriously,  you do a great job. So many voices, so Rashomon in TONE, and only three of you. No wonder that cavern is smoke-filled!

I'm relatively new here. I lurked for a year before posting and that helped a lot in understanding the different voices participating in this forum. Some are more sensitive than others; some relish in the daily analysis/gossip at the water cooler. I enjoyed all the threads, even the locked ones, and learned a lot.

The only change I've noticed the last few months are many new members chiming in and they're trying to fit in. It'll all settle down when they, like me, find their comfort zone .

Again, much respect to the mods.


----------



## Lynn McNamee

Betsy the Quilter said:


> There was exactly one report of glutton's posts for the tone they had, just prior to the blowup in the thread that was cited here. *Please use the report button*. We can't be everywhere.
> Betsy


I used to run a WoW guild with over 200 people in it. Now, two hundred is nothing compared to the number of people on this forum, but I can tell you that it still wasn't easy.

After several months, I would start to dread logging on because I knew some drama would have occurred while I was offline for things like going to work and sleeping.

Not only would I log on to find one complaint, but multiple people sending messages over the same thing, usually accompanied by things like "I can't believe you haven't kicked this guy out of the guild. I can't be in a guild where this stuff is allowed to happen!" I would patiently respond to each one with an "I'm looking into it" message, but inevitably, someone would get angry and quit before I could even figure out everything that had gone on and discuss with my officers what to do about it. Everyone wants_ immediate_ action.

I'm quite certain that none of the mods read every single thread and post that goes up on this board, or any other in KB for that matter. They don't get paid enough for that. Oh, wait. They don't get paid at all. 

I understand the WHOA rule completely. (Just a suggestion to start calling it *WHOOF* (What Happens On Other Forums) Then we can bark at people.  )

Think about it. What if someone here got upset over some joke you posted on Facebook, then reported you to the mods, and the mods banned you for it?

Don't get me wrong. I am not disagreeing with Harvey's decision to break his own rule in this case.

However, I am glad that breaking a mod rule was not done lightly. I'm glad it took him and the mods a bit of time to decide. I'm glad people aren't just banned with no thought or consideration.


----------



## Wansit

Betsy the Quilter said:


> So what am I missing?? The fact that it only applied to white southerners? So, I guess that's racist...but not the primary definition, either. Maybe because I'm the child of northern parents, I don't see using it as a bannable offense.
> 
> Betsy


Hey Betsy - yep I got the same Google report. For me it's the fact that it's only applied to white southerners - which I had no idea before. If I walked up to a black person and called them that they'd look at me like I'm a historical reenactment idiot, but it's disturbing that prior to this I might have unknowingly walked up to a white person with a deep Southern history, called them that and they would have taken incredible offense.

*An aside - I highly doubt I'll have any chance to use the word, you know unless I'm calling someone out on the field of battle. 

Edited to add: I honestly couldn't tell you whether or not this is a bannable offense. Your judgement call.


----------



## Guest

Wansit said:


> Hey Betsy - yep I got the same Google report. For me it's the fact that it's only applied to white southerners - which I had no idea before. If I walked up to a black person and called them that they'd look at me like I'm a historical reenactment idiot, but it's disturbing that prior to this I might have unknowingly walked up to a white person with a deep Southern history, called them that and they would have taken incredible offense.
> 
> *An aside - I highly doubt I'll have any chance to use the word, you know unless I'm calling someone out on the field of battle.


My family on my mother's side is from Tennessee. If you called one of them a scalawag the only offense they would take is that you accused them of siding with Yankees.  To claim it is a "racially charged" word I think is a bit disingenous in the context. It was a word directed at southerns who sided with the North. The word is no more racially charged than calling someone a Yankee (or a Dumbocrat or a Republicon). It's a political insult, not a racial one.


----------



## vrabinec

I thought it was a derogatory term used by pirates, like Captain Jack Sparrow calling "Bootstrap" Bill Turner one. (I get too much of my education from Hollywood, I think)


----------



## Jeff

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Could you explain it to me? Jade didn't say it was derogatory, but racist... I haven't seen a definition yet that says that. Yes, it says the secondary, historical definition of scalawag (really, no need for cloaking the term) is a white southerner who collaborated with northern Republicans during the Reconstruction. (US Civil War); but the primary definition is "a person who behaves badly but in an amusingly mischievous rather than harmful way; a rascal." So what am I missing?? The fact that it only applied to white southerners? So, I guess that's racist...but not the primary definition, either. Maybe because I'm the child of northern parents, I don't see using it as a bannable offense.
> 
> Betsy


In Central Texas, the common usage of the term _scalywag_ would be to describe a mischievous (usually likable) person.

I'm very disappointed in the overall response to this thread where so many have taken the opportunity to find fault with the moderators. Personally, I find it remarkable that they can keep up with so many posts.


----------



## Danielle Kazemi

Wansit said:


> Hey Betsy - yep I got the same Google report. For me it's the fact that it's only applied to white southerners - which I had no idea before. If I walked up to a black person and called them that they'd look at me like I'm a historical reenactment idiot, but it's disturbing that prior to this I might have unknowingly walked up to a white person with a deep Southern history, called them that and they would have taken incredible offense.
> 
> *An aside - I highly doubt I'll have any chance to use the word, you know unless I'm calling someone out on the field of battle.
> 
> Edited to add: I honestly couldn't tell you whether or not this is a bannable offense. Your judgement call.


As a southern white person whose family has been down here since...geeze, we came from Acadia so a long time ago, I find no offense with this word. It sounds funny and I'll probably assume you are just being silly. I think carpetbagger would be more offensive.


----------



## vrabinec

Jeff said:


> I'm very disappointed in the overall response to this thread where so many have taken the opportunity to find fault with the moderators. Personally, I find it remarkable that they can keep up with so many posts.


And still it's relatively a civil discussion. I just quit a message board, largely over the comments of the founder about one of the mods here, so I think KB is a cut above. It makes people uncomfortable to see friends called out, but it goes with the job of being a mod. I'm pretty sure Anne and Betsy can take it. Can't please everyone. One thing I word of caution to those who accuse the mods of not being strict enoug, not acting quickly enough, and not acting definitively enough, if these mods go, you may get someone with the heavy hand you want, and some of you maiing the accusations have been guilty of attacks yourselves (think about it), so the heavy hand may land on you. Personally, I like the mods just the way they are.


----------



## Wansit

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> My family on my mother's side is from Tennessee. If you called one of them a scalawag the only offense they would take is that you accused them of siding with Yankees.  To claim it is a "racially charged" word I think is a bit disingenous in the context. It was a word directed at southerns who sided with the North. The word is no more racially charged than calling someone a Yankee (or a Dumbocrat or a Republicon). It's a political insult, not a racial one.


Good to know.

Also @vrabinec I totally was going to mention POTC but wasn't sure if my memory was failing me.


----------



## CMTheAuthor

Rule X of human nature: it's always easier to find fault with others than with yourself. While that's a useful trait for creating drama in writing, it's not so good when it creates drama on forums.

I think people would be more appreciative if the forum-goers here were a little more introspective and a little less aggressive. (The way I see it, those traits will also help you write better characters and stories, so everyone wins.)


----------



## Jeff

vrabinec said:


> I'm pretty sure Anne and Betsy can take it.


Why should they have to take it? They're readers and Kindle owners who've volunteered to help. The only payment they get is an occasional thank you. The other moderators (like Geoffrey who's busy doing basic housekeeping as we speak) don't even get that.


----------



## Steve Silkin

Caddy said:


> I shouldn't have made him a subject of humiliation, especially since he isn't here to defend himself. ... I apologize for that.


Thank you for understanding.


----------



## vrabinec

Jeff said:


> Why should they have to take it?


What would you do, ban everyone who talks about them that way? You were sticking up for glutton not getting a chance, so I assume that's not it. Then, what? Beg, coddle, reason, and if necessary, pistol whip everyone into falling in line with a level a courtesy you've decided is appropriate? Maybe shame them and create more resentment? Good luck with that.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

vrabinec said:


> pistol whip everyone into falling in line


Hmmmmm.......looks thoughtfully at cattle prod....

Betsy


----------



## DarkScribe

JRTomlin said:


> You seem like a decent person so I find myself baffled by your conviction that the world is better if people can be verbally demeaned. I have been called a number of names in my life, everything from "cheap Jock" to "*****" to "chick" and more which for civilities sake I won't list. All were meant to put me in my supposedly inferior place.
> 
> How that is some form of "honesty" escapes me.
> 
> ETA: Patty, popcorn is what is needed.


I don't see how being honest is verbally demeaning, and I would not call you or anyone else a ***** or a cheap jock. When I was young girls referred to _themselves _as chicks and guys, including me, would also use the expression. I don't think that I have used it since I left college. I certainly do not support ad hominem attacks or unwarranted attacks of any nature. I do support unvarnished honesty when it is called for - I prefer to say nothing or tell the truth. I am not the sort of person you should ask "does my arse look big..." if your arse is big as I will tell you that it is (although I wouldn't volunteer that unless asked).

Last Monday, while I was lunching in a restaurant, a group of women at an adjoining table were met by a new member of their party who was excited about a new handbag purchase - apparently acquired at a good price. The whole group gushed over the handbag, but when the lass left to go to the bar, they all started rubbishing it, the price she paid, and her taste. They were being PC I suppose as not one of them expressed their true opinion to her face. Is that how you feel the world should work? How is that an improvement over honesty?

BTW, several of my closest friends are lesbian. I get on well with them as I like women and with them I can relax and not become involved in all the gender games.


----------



## Jeff

vrabinec said:


> What would you do, ban everyone who talks about them that way? You were sticking up for glutton not getting a chance, so I assume that's not it. Then, what? Beg, coddle, reason, and if necessary, pistol whip everyone into falling in line with a level a courtesy you've decided is appropriate? Maybe shame them and create more resentment? Good luck with that.


I was sticking up for Harvey, not Glutton. I never heard of Glutton before this thread. The rest of your post doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## DarkScribe

JadeLogan said:


> This is so funny - sheesh!!!! There are strongly opinionated people still arguing over things which is the very reason why the thread was created haha **Head shaking in astonishment**
> 
> There r posters saying they'll never return (who blames them), Certain 'respected' members have resorted to racist terms (Scalawag) but will never be banned because it's just ""their opinion"", a violence against women thread has resurged (is there not a way to just delete that thread?)
> 
> Do you ever get the feeling that you maybe should not have started this thread and just kept it between the mods to deal with or kept it as a small sticky?
> 
> **chuckling over the irony of this thread**


When I was growing up Scallywag was used to describe a mischievous child - nothing more.


----------



## vrabinec

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hmmmmm.......looks thoughtfully at cattle prod....
> 
> Betsy


 

I've been on forums where the mods had the "I won't have you talk about me like that on my forum" attitude, and it drove me nuts. I think it's legitimate to question how long it takes to ban someone who's offensive or if there is any favoritism in warnings and edits, regardless of whether I agree with the complaints. And I think YOU are more than capable enough of defending your decisions. Obviously, personal attacks are another matter entirely.


----------



## Jeroen Steenbeeke

Well, this thread has been thoroughly disturbing. It's good to see things are being done to improve the atmosphere here, but frankly, I've been away from these boards for a few months so I completely failed to notice a change in atmosphere.

Hopefully, after this thread, I never will either.


----------



## vrabinec

Jeff said:


> I was sticking up for Harvey, not Glutton. I never heard of Glutton before this thread. The rest of your post doesn't make sense to me.


I know. I'm saying, what would you do about it? If someone talks about Harvey, Anne or Betsy the way they did on this thread, which you took offense to, what would you do? Ban them? Force them to comly to your standards of civility? I mean, I like them, too. I don't like to see accusation hurled at them. But I don't follow every post, and I'm willing to let someone air grievances as long as they're not personal attacks. Saying it took too long to ban glutton isn't a personal attack. Saying one of the mods may be playing favorites isn't a personal attack. Nobody's calling them names. I think they can defend their decisions just fine with having the people making the accusations be muffled.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

vrabinec said:


> I've been on forums where the mods had the "I won't have you talk about me like that on my forum" attitude, and it drove me nuts. I think it's legitimate to question how long it takes to ban someone who's offensive or if there is any favoritism in warnings and edits, regardless of whether I agree with the complaints. And I think YOU are more than capable enough of defending your decisions. Obviously, personal attacks are another matter entirely.


"If you prick us, do we not bleed?"


Seriously, I welcome, just as authors do,  construct criticism. (I talked about this a few posts ago.)

Betsy


----------



## Jeff

vrabinec said:


> I'm saying, what would you do about it? If someone talks about Harvey, Anne or Betsy the way they did on this thread, which you took offense to, what would you do?


I'd post my support of them in the thread where they were being criticized.


----------



## Sapphire

There are posts in this thread with which I agree, posts with which I disagree, and posts that make absolutely no sense to me. I will say that if I were brand new to WC (my membership can be counted in months but I don't consider myself brand new) or had just returned after a lengthy absence, I would most likely run very fast in the opposite direction. To quote a rather unpopular person who did once make a worthwhile statement, "Can't we all just get along?"


----------



## Guest

Lynn McNamee said:


> Think about it. What if someone here got upset over some joke you posted on Facebook, then reported you to the mods, and the mods banned you for it?
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I am not disagreeing with Harvey's decision to break his own rule in this case.


I think Lynn brings up a valid point. I suspect that, if I really wanted to, there are certain erotica authors here on KB I could potentially get banned for fetishes by dredging up stuff they post on other more adult sites (or even pull quotes out of their books). Some people see a sexual predator. Frankly, I see a guy with piss-poor socialization skill and bad internet etiquette.

I come from a gamer background. For the last 20 years, I have very often been the only female at the game table or the only woman on Vent during a raid. IMHO, the tragedy is not that the situation escalated to the point that female members had to scream in this thread to call out the behavior. The tragedy of this situation is nobody thought to just pull him aside and say "Dude, chill out" BEFORE it got to this point.

And I blame myself for that just as much as anyone else. Because I recognized the behavior, but kept my mouth shut. Maybe because I am numb to it because I've seen it so much. Maybe because just chose to start ignoring his threads. Maybe because I did worry that certain elements would make it out like I was 'attacking' a fellow KBer.

When my boyfriend and I first started dating, he was playing a shooter on the Xbox with one of his pals. During the PVP, his buddy got killed three seconds into the first match. Mike joked "You got raped." It's a phrase that I'm sure most people who live with gamers or who play online games has heard at some point. After his friend left, I told him "Look, please don't say that again. I have a friend who is a rape victim. It isn't a joke. It hurt me to hear you say it."

Mike is a sensitive guy. I thought he was going to cry because he didn't realize what he said was hurtful. He was just playing his stupid video game with his buddy. When he lived at home, his mom or sister would scream at him when he said it, and he would say "Sorry" but he never internalized why his mom or sister were screaming. They were just screaming at him while he was trying to play his stupid game. It wasn't until years later when he was dating me someone actually explained WHY it was hurtful.

Guys are dense that way sometimes. It's like when you hear a teenager say "that's gay" or "that's retarded." They don't make the connection between the word and what they were actually saying. But he internalized what I said, and now when he's socializing with young guys and he hears one of them say it, he is the person to tell them "Dude, chill out."

It bothers me that the situation escalated, not because the mods were "allowing a predator" on the forum, but because the situation wasn't addressed when it first started. It bothers me that stuff that was said in other forums, under unknown context, was used as a weapon to get someone banned who was, in my opinion, more annoying for the constant stealth spamming than making me uncomfortable.

As a writer of speculative fiction, it bothers me that his fiction is also being used as "evidence" of his fetish. I wonder if the folks making those statements feel the same about all of the erotica authors who publish erotica that contains bondage, submission, dubious consent, etc. Frankly, the whole thing reminds me of the kid that got that was arrested on terrorism charges because he wrote a horror story in which zombies attacked his high school. Because a bunch of people who didn't "get" the idea that it was a horror story felt threatened and uncomfortable and labeled him a threat. And instead of just talking to him about the story, they had him arrested.

I don't know what the answer is. I know there are people on KB I dislike, so I avoid their threads. And I know there are people here who have tried to get me booted off this site. But that doesn't mean I want them banned. If they get on my nerves enough, I walk away and read another thread. Ye gods know we got plenty of them. But I regret I didn't get involved in this particular issue sooner because some folks have made it a black and white issue when, from where I sit, it is very much a murky gray.


----------



## vrabinec

Jeff said:


> I'd post my support of them in the thread where they were being criticized.


I did. A couple times on this thread. But I also acknowledge that I don't read every post, and I'm not aware of every situation and complaint that's made. For all I know, there may have been mistakes made. Therefore, I don't try to shame the people speaking out, and I leave it to the parties involved to respond as they see fit.

p.s. In an intersting twist, glutton just joined a message board on which I am one of the mods. Hmmm. I'm chatting with him now. There's a thread in the bazaar Suzy posted to the site if anyone wants to watch and see what comes of it.


----------



## KBoards Admin

vrabinec - there were some harsh things said in this thread about our moderation... and our moderators. The way I read it, Jeff was just pointing out the other side of the coin. No need to get onto him for that!


----------



## KBoards Admin

vrabinec said:


> p.s. In an intersting twist, glutton just joined a message board on which I am one of the mods. Hmmm.


I feel your pain, brother.


----------



## Guest

vrabinec said:


> p.s. In an intersting twist, glutton just joined a message board on which I am one of the mods. Hmmm. I'm chatting with him now. There's a thread in the bazaar Suzy posted to the site if anyone wants to watch and see what comes of it.


Wait...back up...there is a forum somewhere in which YOU are a mod?


----------



## JRTomlin

DarkScribe said:


> I don't see how being honest is verbally demeaning, and I would not call you or anyone else a ***** or a cheap jock. When I was young girls referred to _themselves _as chicks and guys, including me, would also use the expression. I don't think that I have used it since I left college. I certainly do not support ad hominem attacks or unwarranted attacks of any nature. I do support unvarnished honesty when it is called for - I prefer to say nothing or tell the truth. I am not the sort of person you should ask "does my arse look big..." if your arse is big as I will tell you that it is (although I wouldn't volunteer that unless asked).
> 
> Last Monday, while I was lunching in a restaurant, a group of women at an adjoining table were met by a new member of their party who was excited about a new handbag purchase - apparently acquired at a good price. The whole group gushed over the handbag, but when the lass left to go to the bar, they all started rubbishing it, the price she paid, and her taste. They were being PC I suppose as not one of them expressed their true opinion to her face. Is that how you feel the world should work? How is that an improvement over honesty?
> 
> BTW, several of my closest friends are lesbian. I get on well with them as I like women and with them I can relax and not become involved in all the gender games.


Being dishonest or mean or being upset if you decide to say someone's arse looks big has nothing to do with "being PC". PC has to do with not using offensive terms regarding gender, religion, race, or sexual orientation. Some people do claim that has gone too far. That is possibly true, but all to often the claim is made by people who simply want to be able to display their prejudice.

It doesn't relate to being a bit insensitive about telling someone their arse is too big. 

As I said, I have no impression that you are in any way racist, homophobic or misogynistic which is why I found your comments puzzling.


----------



## vrabinec

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Wait...back up...there is a forum somewhere in which YOU are a mod?


Cussing and politics are allowed, so it doesn't take that much moderation. Except today.


----------



## Zelah Meyer

From my perspective, as I said earlier in this thread, I think the Mods do a good job of stepping in and shutting down (or reining in) threads that have got out of hand.  I like the Mods, I like the boards - it's a good site that definitely has its heart in the right place.  The issue comes is that perhaps the powers that be are sometimes a little TOO nice and don't bring out the ban stick when it's required.  

Nobody likes to be the bad guy, and I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt, an opportunity to change, a fresh start, etc.  However, I've seen a few - not masses - but a few posters on here who would have swiftly been banned on a more cut-throat, free for all type of board.  So, it's ironic that they are allowed to get away with behaving that way on a more friendly, family oriented board like this one.  I think it's a case where niceness can work against you.

Someone I know off the boards is a manager, a good man and a really nice guy.  He had a deputy that was the complete opposite.  That deputy was a bully who made the life of one of his staff members a misery and that staff member resigned. In their exit interview with HR, the staff member had a go at the manager, not the deputy.  They were mad at the manager for letting the deputy get away with the way they were behaving.  Now, the manager had been extra nice to this employee to try to make up for the way his deputy behaved, but he was also being the nice guy with the deputy - and wouldn't put his foot down and tell them that they had to stop treating their staff like that.  As a result, he wound up the target for the anger that the deputy had caused.

Like I said, nobody likes to be the bad guy, it's not easy to give official warnings or bans.  Maybe another level of temporary ban would help?  It might make it easier for the Mods to give an initial warning, and then if necessary, the first level of temporary ban.  I think that some (though not all) of the troublemakers would have reined it in a bit if they'd felt that they were indeed potentially facing suspension from the boards if their behaviour continued.  If someone's behaviour is unacceptable - people need to feel that there will be consequences for that. Otherwise, you start to see board members taking things into their own hands - and then you wind up having to moderate that!

As a wise man once said to me (and please excuse the language), "You know your problem?  You're too f***ing nice.  In fact, you're too f***ing nice for your own good."  We have some lovely people running these boards - don't let your own niceness work against you.  x


----------



## KBoards Admin

You make some good thoughtful points, Zelah - thank you. I think in the past I've had a tendency to think that, with a few warnings and temporary bans, and lots of email/PM communications, that a member can be 'rehabilitated' (for lack of a better word). But in almost every instance of that, I've found that despite our best efforts you just can't change a person's nature. 

So a lot of what you're saying is in line with that, as a lesson learned for me. Besides, it's exhausting trying to run somebody through our charm school.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Harvey said:


> Besides, it's exhausting trying to run somebody through our charm school.


Besides, the teachers keep quiting.

Betsy


----------



## Leslie

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Besides, the teachers keep quiting.
> 
> Betsy


Is that quitting or quilting?


----------



## Becca Mills

ProfessorAplomb said:


> A couple of things I find interesting about this thread about tone is that I post about my experience and almost like they were cued, members of my newly acquired "fan club" jump out and present themselves - right in front of the mods, who I know are well aware of the problem and nothing is said or done about this. Is this really the "tone" you want here?
> 
> What is, also, interesting is that the people who do this are okay with having pictures, presumably of themselves, with their names or pen names and links to their web sites and their wares right next to all of this - like they're proud of themselves.
> 
> I don't understand why you would allow this kind of thing to go on, Harvey and other mods. Is this the tone? You have to have some kind of on-going over the top offensive thing going on before you take any decisive action to clean up your problem. You have a nice forum here and you let this kind of thing go on and on - that's a real shame.
> 
> And, I don't understand the benefit of being hateful and abusive in a forum with your name, face, books and other pertinent information right there for everyone to see.


This thread seems to be winding down to a calm conclusion (though Julie raises good points about the glutton mess, and I'm ambivalent about some facets of that as well). But I feel I can't let the above go by unanswered.

ProfessorAplomb, no one has attacked you. People have *challenged* your ideas, beliefs, priorities. That is not the same as attacking *you*. All the language directed at you has been measured and non-aggressive. If you can't distinguish between your*self* and the ideas you promote, that's your problem, not ours.

You, on the other hand, have attacked other KBers repeatedly. You have attacked Mathew R. in particular. The dig at him "sponging off his wife" because he works from home (as a writer) and is his family's home-maker was particularly egregious. I found it sexist and demeaning.

I recognize that everything I've said is clearly attached to me. That's not the case with you, is it? We have no idea what books you've written. You're completely anonymous and thus free to attack and demean anyone with no repercussions, despite the fact that all your posts are public, permanent, and Googleable.

So take a look at the quotations below. When have I ever said something like this to anyone on this forum? How are these rude and aggressive comments equivalent to my measured and impersonal explanations of why I think worrying about piracy is not fruitful? Or Mathews's language? Or anyone else's?



> This kind of thing is why I hate this forum...





> The real problem here is that I am a new poster and I'm in your territory so you feel the need to urinate on every thread, marking out your territory. This is your way of showing that I am not welcome here.





> I am blocking you... so you can keep ranting and acting like a jerk if you want, but I will not read one more word of yours [...]





> Any sociopaths who steal books would do well to keep the following in mind:
> 
> 1. You can go to jail, which is where you belong - but hey! what's the difference between sponging off your wife's income and sponging off the taxpayers dime in Federal prison really?





> Not everyone has this Haight Ashbury Free Love, share-and-share alike attitude toward their property. The sociopath would do well to bear this in mind.





> there are a lot of people here who are hostile toward authors who want to own their own property. Contrary to the fantasies told by the pro-piracy gangsters [...]





> It's interesting, too, when people who aren't being talked about read themselves into a comment like you did... I think this says something about you.





ProfessorAplomb said:


> Well, one thing education level has to do with this discussion right off is related to reading comprehension... I made it pretty clear [...]





ProfessorAplomb said:


> If you could remember or reference what I said in my posts [...]





ProfessorAplomb said:


> am now blocking you - you may not be a pirate or a piracy advocate, but you go on the list with a few others and if I venture back to this board although I'm not sure why I should, I will not be reading any further comments from you.





ProfessorAplomb said:


> When I see that the criminal element here is cleaned up (you've got a handful of very active people here who are aggressive and criminally-minded) - when that ceases to the the normative behavior here, I'll consider posting more questions and (I hope) helpful answers to other people's questions, if it's something I have experience with, because to me that's the point of a forum.
> 
> [...]
> 
> But, there are some sick people who feed on other people's grief or misfortune. I think that's partly what happened in my case. Weed out those people, and this could be a top notch place.





ProfessorAplomb said:


> And, we can see from the posts the past few pages, there are people who get their thrill abusing other people in various ways. These people are sick.. they're deviants. And, I just don't really want to associate with that.


Is this the tone I want here? It is not. It's dreadful. People who disagree with you are "sick," "criminals," "deviants," "jerks," "sociopaths," "sponge[rs]," "gansters," and sadists who "get their thrill [from] abusing other people."

If a handful of people are responsible for degrading the tone around here lately, you're one of them. The aggression and rudeness you display are intolerable. You're the only one here who speaks this way to others.


----------



## DarkScribe

JRTomlin said:


> Being dishonest or mean or being upset if you decide to say someone's arse looks big has nothing to do with "being PC". PC has to do with not using offensive terms regarding gender, religion, race, or sexual orientation. Some people do claim that has gone too far. That is possibly true, but all to often the claim is made by people who simply want to be able to display their prejudice.
> 
> It doesn't relate to being a bit insensitive about telling someone their arse is too big.
> 
> As I said, I have no impression that you are in any way racist, homophobic or misogynistic which is why I found your comments puzzling.


I have never used offensive terms in those areas, yet I am constantly accused of being "non-PC" for failing to sugar coat my opinions. That is never going to happen. Many people regard being PC as never giving offence, never saying anything that might hurt someone's feelings. I will discuss many issues involving racism, discrimination, misogyny, but in a lot of cases as soon as I say anything at all negative about an issue I am accused of being politically incorrect. I was accused of being a racist recently for suggesting that Islamic Clerics should - like Christian or Jewish clerics - be formally trained and required to pass a minimum standard of religious competence before being able to preach or teach. It would reduce the influence and impact of inflammatory clerics who teach things that are not in the Koran. I don't regard my suggestion as racist - it would lessen a lot of the current resentment that some hold for Muslims.

I have no problem with any of those on your list other than organised religion. I object strongly to those who turn religion into an industry - and I make my objection known. I am a Christian atheist.


----------



## valeriec80

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> As a writer of speculative fiction, it bothers me that his fiction is also being used as "evidence" of his fetish. I wonder if the folks making those statements feel the same about all of the erotica authors who publish erotica that contains bondage, submission, dubious consent, etc. Frankly, the whole thing reminds me of the kid that got that was arrested on terrorism charges because he wrote a horror story in which zombies attacked his high school. Because a bunch of people who didn't "get" the idea that it was a horror story felt threatened and uncomfortable and labeled him a threat. And instead of just talking to him about the story, they had him arrested.


I think Julie's entire post is spot on, but I really want to reiterate this.

I'm not saying the forum has really lost someone who would give back a lot to other writers, because it doesn't seem that we have.

But I am very uncomfortable with the idea that someone is being taken to task for his offsite fictional fantasies, and that he's being kicked off this forum because of it. It doesn't make me feel comfortable, considering my own fiction could be construed as disturbing (and, in fact, often is by certain one-star reviewers). I think that's a precedent that is a little terrifying to set.

However, I in no way fault any of the mods here. (Y'all are great, and I'm glad you were dealing with the situation and not me. Thank you for everything.) As Julie says, I think things are a good bit murky. However, I'm very happy that things are calmer.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell

Here's a question. If the moderators remove one of your posts, do they tell you? Because, otherwise, you'd have no idea that a bit of hit-and-run snark had gone over the line. (I swear that one of mine disappeared mysteriously, once.)


----------



## WHDean

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think Lynn brings up a valid point. I suspect that, if I really wanted to, there are certain erotica authors here on KB I could potentially get banned for fetishes by dredging up stuff they post on other more adult sites (or even pull quotes out of their books). Some people see a sexual predator. Frankly, I see a guy with p*ss-poor socialization skill and bad internet etiquette.


No doubt there are some people (here included) who react to both sexual assault and leaving the toilet up with the same righteous fury-as if the two were just the ends of a very, very narrow spectrum. So I can see why you're hesitant to line up on that side of it. But typical male locker room banter (like you described) and the sort of pathological fetish on display on that thread are not the same thing. One comes from human nature and socialization (or the lack of it), the other from deep pathos.

If you suppose that this particular fellow just doesn't recognize boundaries, I think you probably haven't been exposed to such people. He's not Mike. He knows the boundaries; yet he can't and doesn't want to stay within them. He wants to indulge and to share and to normalize his abnormality. I saw this coming months ago-all the signs were there for anyone to see-so I missed the entirely predicable outcome because I ignored the threads.

As far as his protestations go, well, that's a testament to his ability to learn the rhetorical postures that such people use. "No, no! I'm just interested in fictional accounts of it!" "I like to see the triumph against adversity!" All nonsense. That's empty middle-ground talk to suck you into sympathizing-"You see? I'm just like you only a little weirder!" In other words, what you interpret as stealth spamming is really an attempt to co-opt others into the fetish, whether as sympathizers or pseudo-victims (by the sounds of it, a few were willing to join the ranks of the latter).

So, you can feel bad about not intervening if you want, but you wouldn't have been able to stop the inevitable outcome, which was more or less planned from the start.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Becca Mills said:


> Is this the tone I want here? It is not. It's dreadful. People who disagree with you are "sick," "criminals," "deviants," "jerks," "sociopaths," "sponge[rs]," "gansters," and sadists who "get their thrill [from] abusing other people."
> 
> If a handful of people are responsible for degrading the tone around here lately, you're one of them. The aggression and rudeness you display are intolerable. You're the only one here who speaks this way to others.


I want to try to avoid this thread getting into a back-and-forth... but I think Becca has a valid point that I've observed as well: some of the people who are most outspoken about their issues with the 'tone' of the Writer's Cafe, are themselves the worst offenders. But they don't see it in their own posts.

My advice - easy to say and hard for some to do - is to look at your posts as an impartial third party, and consider them from that point of view.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson

I don't think Glutton was kicked off for his off-site behavior. It's because he displayed that same behavior here. A lot of his posts had disturbing undertones, and he repeatedly started new threads harping on the same issue. It was hard not to notice. I imagine that's exactly why George started investigating off-site, and after what he found and posted here, it was impossible to give Glutton the benefit of the doubt any longer.

WHOA being used against someone on KB is a valid concern. But I think this was an appropriate exception--in large part because the WHOA wasn't what sparked this, but rather the ongoing behavior on KB itself.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Leslie said:


> Is that quitting or quilting?


This got the first LOL from me today!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> Here's a question. If the moderators remove one of your posts, do they tell you? Because, otherwise, you'd have no idea that a bit of hit-and-run snark had gone over the line. (I swear that one of mine disappeared mysteriously, once.)


It depends. Typically, we'll post in the thread that posts that have gone over the line have been removed. If yours isn't there, and it was before, chances are we removed it.

Occasionally, we'll PM the individual...and occasionally, speaking for myself, there's so much going on I may forget to either PM or post.... Always, feel free to PM me for more information if you're not sure.

And if you think something you're posting may go over the line, perhaps you should rethink the post. 

Betsy


----------



## Kathleen Valentine

It is fine to disagree, it is not fine to be disagreeable. There is a difference. I have no problem with people taking issue with what I say, as long as they do so politely. For some reason incomprehensible to me, there are people who take a certain amount of pride in acting like spoiled, rude, nasty-mouthed little twits. Doing so does not make you any kind of "rebel" or 'brutally honest" it just makes you a spoiled, rude, nasty-mouthed little twit. Disagree all you like, just don't act like an ignorant brat. 

So there.


----------



## Guest

Harvey said:


> I want to try to avoid this thread getting into a back-and-forth... but I think Becca has a valid point that I've observed as well: some of the people who are most outspoken about their issues with the 'tone' of the Writer's Cafe, are themselves the worst offenders. But they don't see it in their own posts.
> 
> My advice - easy to say and hard for some to do - is to look at your posts as an impartial third party, and consider them from that point of view.


Zelah has very good points as related to what I'm talking about. You are after all the "sheriff."

You allowed an attack on me to go on. Then, you shut down a thread in which I was trying to obtain information about a particular matter (which I did learn more about, but I guess I won't be sharing it here, since the thread was closed). Instead of stopping the attacker, you punished me by closing a thread on which I was trying to obtain information about a matter and forced me too look elsewhere.

Do you enjoy posting a thread on a forum and then being full-on attacked and accused of something you weren't doing...? as if it's anyone's business, anyway, what I do with my time or what I post, as long as it is within your guidelines.

Now, what do you want me to do? I can stop posting here, all together and allow myself to be bullied off your forum. Or, you can do something to stop it. You can see that my following is growing, varies with the moment and seems to be pretty dedicated.

Do you think they're going to stop on their own? If they don't, I'm supposed to do what? Take the abuse?

You're the ones who set the tone. I can't do it. But, I don't enjoy abuse. And, I won't take it one way or the other.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Yes, we are the moderators here, but you have a responsibility for tone as well. Don't leave it all up to us. 

Please take an honest look at your past posts, and reflect.


----------



## Becca Mills

valeriec80 said:


> I think Julie's entire post is spot on, but I really want to reiterate this.
> 
> I'm not saying the forum has really lost someone who would give back a lot to other writers, because it doesn't seem that we have.
> 
> But I am very uncomfortable with the idea that someone is being taken to task for his offsite fictional fantasies, and that he's being kicked off this forum because of it. It doesn't make me feel comfortable, considering my own fiction could be construed as disturbing (and, in fact, often is by certain one-star reviewers). I think that's a precedent that is a little terrifying to set.
> 
> However, I in no way fault any of the mods here. (Y'all are great, and I'm glad you were dealing with the situation and not me. Thank you for everything.) As Julie says, I think things are a good bit murky. However, I'm very happy that things are calmer.


I actually don't think the WHOA rule needed to be broken in glutton's case. By involving unwitting people in his fetish play *here*, glutton was definitely behaving indecorously on the forum. Any kinkster with a clue knows you don't do that. The material on those other sites helped people here identify those threads as fetish play, but the threads themselves can be sited as reason to ban, IMO.

I can see that the situation raised difficult questions for the moderators. Was Glutton just indulging a kink (disturbing, but not harmful to others) in very inappropriate and offensive way? That's possible, I think. It's not easy for people with highly non-normative sexual practices to get information about appropriate ways of practicing them.

Or is he a sexual predator in the making, with the KB threads enabling that development?

If the former was the case, perhaps the appropriate response would be, "Hey, you do NOT do that kind of thing. Do it again, and get banned." (And in fact he did do it again, as Melissa pointed out, in this thread.) If the latter was the case, then an instant permaban would be more appropriate. You don't want to help someone become a predator.

But the thing is, I have no idea how to answer those two questions. I understand the fear and loathing he was generating here, but I'm uncomfortable jumping to a "YES!!!" answer on the sexual-predator question. That's too damning, too fast -- not when there's the possibility that this is an essentially harmless person who is behaving in a very inappropriate and upsetting way because he has no idea how to manage his kink when interacting with other people.

So I appreciate that the mods gave him a second chance. I do think he repeated the behavior after (I assume) being warned not to. Banning after that new transgression seems fair to me. I believe Harvey, Ann, and Betsy reacted well to what has got to be one of the more difficult moderating situations they've faced.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell

Betsy the Quilter said:


> It depends. Typically, we'll post in the thread that posts that have gone over the line have been removed. If yours isn't there, and it was before, chances are we removed it.
> 
> Occasionally, we'll PM the individual...and occasionally, speaking for myself, there's so much going on I may forget to either PM or post.... Always, feel free to PM me for more information if you're not sure.
> 
> And if you think something you're posting may go over the line, perhaps you should rethink the post.
> 
> Betsy


I've completely forgotten the thread, but no, that's the point. I did not in the least think that my post went over the line, and then it disappeared.  My theory is that it was in between two other posts that got removed.


----------



## Mathew Reuther

1) Glutton had undertones here. I too would be sad if offsite stuff had been the ONLY problem. It wasn't.

2) Scalawag has a benign, non-racist primary definition. Dated historical references are not at play here.

3) Even if it was being used to mean southerner who sided with the north (SERIOUSLY) I would hardly, as a northerner, be using is as a pejorative.

Have a nice week all.


----------



## Guest

Harvey said:


> Yes, we are the moderators here, but you have a responsibility for tone as well. Don't leave it all up to us.
> 
> Please take an honest look at your past posts, and reflect.


Then, you are the problem.

You have a problem in this forum and you are it.

If you can't see that, then you are doomed to more episodes like this.

You saw that I was being attacked and did nothing to help me... I was left on my own...

So, this is not all your fault, but you share blame with the attacker.


----------



## KBoards Admin

I guess we'll agree to disagree on that on, Professor. Let's move forward on a positive basis. Just please remember our rules about civility, in your future posts. And don't go down the road of thinking we haven't taken action on others involved in the threads you've mentioned. You're not being persecuted. Let's carry on.


----------



## Guest

Harvey said:


> I guess we'll agree to disagree on that on, Professor. Let's move forward on a positive basis. Just please remember our rules about civility, in your future posts. And don't go down the road of thinking we haven't taken action on others involved in the threads you've mentioned. You're not being persecuted. Let's carry on.


So, does this mean you are going to do something about the mobbing?


----------



## Becca Mills

ProfessorAplomb said:


> Then, you are the problem.
> 
> You have a problem in this forum and you are it.
> 
> If you can't see that, then you are doomed to more episodes like this.
> 
> You saw that I was being attacked and did nothing to help me... I was left on my own...
> 
> So, this is not all your fault, but you share blame with the attacker.


Here is the essential problem, Professor: You see yourself as the victim. I see you as the attacker. If rereading all your insults quoted back at you didn't get across why I feel as I do, then nothing will. We have an irreconcilable difference of perception.

I've said my piece on this issue.


----------



## Guest

WHDean said:


> So, you can feel bad about not intervening if you want, but you wouldn't have been able to stop the inevitable outcome, which was more or less planned from the start.


Perhaps. I have a great many powers, but the ability to predict multiple future outcomes is not one of them.  But I don't like to think the final outcome was inevitable. It could have been mitigated. Sometimes, you can't avoid a car wreck, but you can mitigate the damage by having your seat belt on or not slamming on the break in panic and slamming head-on into the truck.


----------



## KBoards Admin

ProfessorAplomb said:


> So, does this mean you are going to do something about the mobbing?


Not sure what you're referring to. Please report any such posts. We will apply warnings, temp bans, and permanent bans as we deem appropriate.

It seems though you feel the problem is everybody else. Do you not see any problem with your own past posts? That does make me concerned about your ability to be a part of building a positive tone in our Writer's Cafe.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

I've been reading with a lot of interest, fear and dismay this whole thread. I don't want to make a big post out of it, but here are a few of my thoughts:


The mods are doing a great job maintaining the forums, in my opinion. They're not letting things fester, and they let us discuss and nitpick as long as we keep it civil. So, a big hug and a big thank you to you.
I'm really, really afraid to see all those people leaving. I love this forum, and I love the posters. I love my WC crowd. If they have to go because they're busy or lose interest, I can deal, but I wouldn't want them to go for another reason.

*Last but not least: I realize that I have to make changes myself to keep this place the WC I love.*

So far, I have not always said something when I could have when people where attacked, or not reported people that were over the line. I won't do this anymore. I am going to start using this report link when it's needed, and I am going to stick up for people being attacked.

I do not always "get" that people are hurt, I don't know if it's due to my "favourable grounds" for autism, or because I have developped a thick hide on the net, but I don't want my fellow KBers, or anyone for that matter, feel bad or be hurt.


----------



## Guest

Harvey said:


> Not sure what you're referring to. Please report any such posts. We will apply warnings, temp bans, and permanent bans as we deem appropriate.
> 
> It seems though you feel the problem is everybody else. Do you not see any problem with your own past posts? That does make me concerned about your ability to be a part of building a positive tone in our Writer's Cafe.


I find it hard to believe that you cannot tell when someone is being attacked... I ignored the attacker for several posts on the previous thread related to that incident along with some other unpleasantness. Then, I started a thread about something a couple of days later. And, it starts in that thread right where it left off...

What I see is that you expect people here to take abuse... take it, 'til they cannot take it anymore and finally storm off in a rage. (Read the previous pages here, if you don't believe me!)

You say you want to stop it... And, I feel you, personally, are trying to antagonize me instead of owning up to what you did.


----------



## Guest

ProfessorAplomb said:


> You say you want to stop it... And, I feel you, personally, are trying to antagonize me instead of owning up to what you did.


I have no dog in this hunt, but if you are seriously accusing HARVEY of antagonizing anyone, then you need to step away from the keyboard and, as Betsy often tells me, "try decaf."

I think you are perceiving people disagreeing with you as personal attacks, and the fact that you now think Harvey is being antagonistic supports that.


----------



## Caddy

Although at times I have wondered why some were banned and others were not, I have to say that I think the mods here do a more than decent job. It IS a thankless position to be in and we should all remember that. I wouldn't want it, I know that. Hey, they're human. Some I would ban, they wouldn't. VIce versa. In general, they do a great job and I want to say thank you. Are you perfect? Nope. Nor am I. I'm also willing to bet that you may be closer to it than I am. My motto is that I came to earth for education, experience and enlightenment. I have gotten a lot of all 3, some of it on this board. I am sure I have many more "lessons" to learn before I at last reach perfection.

Thank you for taking part of your time to moderate.


----------



## WyattM et al.

I think the Professor is just pulling y'all's leg(s). Nobody is really that thick.


----------



## Guest

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have no dog in this hunt, but if you are seriously accusing HARVEY of antagonizing anyone, then you need to step away from the keyboard and, as Betsy often tells me, "try decaf."
> 
> I think you are perceiving people disagreeing with you as personal attacks, and the fact that you now think Harvey is being antagonistic supports that.


He doesn't want to admit that he made a mistake.

And, I think it's getting too late for apologies, now, anyway.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

ProfessorAplomb said:


> I find it hard to believe that you cannot tell when someone is being attacked... I ignored the attacker for several posts on the previous thread related to that incident along with some other unpleasantness. Then, I started a thread about something a couple of days later. And, it starts in that thread right where it left off...
> 
> What I see is that you expect people here to take abuse... take it, 'til they cannot take it anymore and finally storm off in a rage. (Read the previous pages here, if you don't believe me!)
> 
> You say you want to stop it... And, I feel you, personally, are trying to antagonize me instead of owning up to what you did.


If I recall correctly, because I read both threads but my memory might not be perfect, you came here in what seemed to me a panicked stance because someone had pirated your books. Some people gave you answers like ask the site to take it down, and other people told you that it was doomed and the pirate would simply upload it somewhere else. Then you got angry because that was not the answer you wanted to hear, and when people tried to explain why it was not a good idea to panic about it (because you can't do anything about it/because you can't stop pirates/because it could even lead to people discovering you), you got angry and threw mean words around and spit all around on the WC members.

That's not cool, dude.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I've been reading with a lot of interest, fear and dismay this whole thread. I don't want to make a big post out of it, but here are a few of my thoughts:
> 
> 
> The mods are doing a great job maintaining the forums, in my opinion. They're not letting things fester, and they let us discuss and nitpick as long as we keep it civil. So, a big hug and a big thank you to you.
> I'm really, really afraid to see all those people leaving. I love this forum, and I love the posters. I love my WC crowd. If they have to go because they're busy or lose interest, I can deal, but I wouldn't want them to go for another reason.
> 
> *Last but not least: I realize that I have to make changes myself to keep this place the WC I love.*
> 
> So far, I have not always said something when I could have when people where attacked, or not reported people that were over the line. I won't do this anymore. I am going to start using this report link when it's needed, and I am going to stick up for people being attacked.
> 
> I do not always "get" that people are hurt, I don't know if it's due to my "favourable grounds" for autism, or because I have developped a thick hide on the net, but I don't want my fellow KBers, or anyone for that matter, feel bad or be hurt.


That is a kind post, and thank you for that.

If it's any reassurance, we've had a similar blow-up or two in the past five years, and once the dust settles, a few people leave but the vast majority of our members remain and the community carries on. We generally have a goodhearted and delightful group of people in our community - not just in WC but throughout the boards - and I expect that'll continue.


----------



## Guest

WyattM et al. said:


> I think the Professor is just pulling y'all's leg(s). Nobody is really that thick.


Ah, new to the internet, I see.


----------



## Caddy

> Thank you for understanding.


You're welcome. I had been thinking about my actions last night, before I went to sleep. Thank you for verifying that I was indeed being a bit assholian.  Have a good week.



> Ah, new to the internet, I see. Wink


----------



## Monique

WyattM et al. said:


> I think the Professor is just pulling y'all's leg(s). Nobody is really that thick.


I have not followed the Professor's WC experience, but isn't that sort of comment exactly what he (and the mods) are concerned about?


----------



## DRMarvello

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think you are perceiving people disagreeing with you as personal attacks, and the fact that you now think Harvey is being antagonistic supports that.


Gads. No kidding. Reading this thread is turning into a surreal passive/aggressive train wreck.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the mods had to lock the "managing tone" thread.


----------



## WyattM et al.

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Ah, new to the internet, I see.


Nah, just always a little astonished to see that someone else is as blind to his own flaws as I usually am.


----------



## WyattM et al.

Monique said:


> I have not followed the Professor's WC experience, but isn't that sort of comment exactly what he (and the mods) are concerned about?


Nope. Just a failed attempt at humor.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

DRMarvello said:


> Wouldn't it be ironic if the mods had to lock the "managing tone" thread.


I think this would qualify as a divide by zero incident.


----------



## BRONZEAGE

Monique said:


> I have not followed the Professor's WC experience, but isn't that sort of comment exactly what he (and the mods) are concerned about?


One would think so. And using little smiley / winky faces doesn't change the tone.


----------



## Kent Kelly

I'm still waiting for someone to shriek "This isn't even my final form!" and for the entire thread (world?) to go down in a cataclysmic onslaught of writhing tentacles.

However I do believe the aggregate thread result is still a net positive.  Families fight.

And hey, cool smileys.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Kent Kelly said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to shriek "This isn't even my final form!" and for the entire thread (world?) to go down in a cataclysmic onslaught of writhing tentacles.
> 
> However I do believe the aggregate thread result is still a net positive. Families fight.
> 
> And hey, cool smileys.


Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fhtagn!


----------



## Guest

Kent Kelly said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to shriek "This isn't even my final form!"


Bankai!


----------



## Josh St. John

Professor Plum,

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,144789.msg2116877.html#msg2116877
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,144023.msg2104334.html#msg2104334
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,144789.msg2114898.html#msg2114898

If you can't find anything wrong with what you've said in these posts, I'm accusing YOU for the murder of Mr. Boddy. In the Writers' Cafe. With the keyboard.


----------



## DarkScribe

ProfessorAplomb said:


> Then, you are the problem.
> 
> You have a problem in this forum and you are it.
> 
> If you can't see that, then you are doomed to more episodes like this.
> 
> You saw that I was being attacked and did nothing to help me... I was left on my own...
> 
> So, this is not all your fault, but you share blame with the attacker.


I followed that thread ProfessorAplomb and I did not see anyone attacking you. I saw people disagreeing with you, but not attacking.

Do you regard arguing or disagreeing as attacking? Is that the problem?

People often disagree with me, but I never feel that I am being attacked.


----------



## NathanWrann

I think the mods do a pretty good job. My only complaint is that they often lock a thread and leave the comment "thread locked for now while we discuss" but then the thread never gets updated with the results of the discussion. I'd like to know how those discussions worked out. I also don't like threads that get locked because the conversation has drifted and/or the OP is no longer posting in the thread.  It overall keep up the great work!


----------



## vrabinec

Edward W. Robertson said:


> I don't think Glutton was kicked off for his off-site behavior. It's because he displayed that same behavior here. A lot of his posts had disturbing undertones, and he repeatedly started new threads harping on the same issue. It was hard not to notice. I imagine that's exactly why George started investigating off-site, and after what he found and posted here, it was impossible to give Glutton the benefit of the doubt any longer.
> 
> WHOA being used against someone on KB is a valid concern. But I think this was an appropriate exception--in large part because the WHOA wasn't what sparked this, but rather the ongoing behavior on KB itself.


Yeah, I read through just about every one of his posts, and before George posted the off site links, there was a disproportionate amount of stuff in his posts about "damage soak" which is the amount of abuse his female characters could absorb. But it's the sexual aspects that make it most disturbing. He posted an excerpt here in which the female is in a fight, yes, she slays the bad guys, but in the process she is impaled inside her thigh, and through the breast. It sure feels like writing that intended to arouse by impaling women in sexual ways. This is the expert he selected for this site. If anyone thinks that's appropriate writing for this site, I'd like to hear your rationale. I've confronted him with this on the other forum, and it's not my call, but I've got the feeling he's gonna get banned at the end of the conversation we're having. Besides, when you couple that excerpt with the picture after picture after picture of women on the ground, impaled on his deviantart site, it's damning.


----------



## Guest

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, I read through just about every one of his posts, and before george posted the off site links, there was a disproportionate amount of stuff in his posts about "damage soak"


That's a gaming term. "Soaking" is a common term used to differentiate between the amount of damage a weapon deals and how much of that damage your character can actually shrug off (particularly in storyteller systems that use multiple dice). For example, last night in our Vampire campaign, I dropped fifteen dice on a firearms check and dealt ten damage. the critter I was shooting had four successes on his soak roll, so it only suffered six of the ten damage.

Not defending glutton, just clarifying a gaming term.


----------



## merryxmas

I think all members should be put on notice and random bannings should be the norm. Strike while the banhammer is hot (as they no one says)! Make the hoi polloi tremble in sight of your unquestionable power oh great leader. This is the only way to institute the tone we all unconsciously crave. Crush your enemies, see them driven before you... ..etc. etc.


----------



## tensen

Waaah..  I was away at a convention this weekend and there are 22 pages of posts in this thread to try and read through. Gawds!


----------



## Guest

tensen said:


> Waaah.. I was away at a convention this weekend and there are 22 pages of posts in this thread to try and read through. Gawds!


See what kind of trouble we get in when you aren't here?


----------



## Howietzer

LOL, the hypocrisy in this thread is astounding! There's a handful of authors here that berate the very tactics I've seen them use on others. At least now I know which face they're talking out of. *Gets more popcorn* (this is some entertaining [crap] right here). I agree with the poster who said you should package this up as a book when all is said and done.


----------



## Cheryl M.

DarkScribe said:


> They regard an unadulterated opinion as "this person doesn't care enough about my feelings to lie, they have actually said something that although possibly true, upsets me". "How outrageous"!


Since this seems to be the "sharing" thread...

I'm not saying this because I want to start a huge fight over it. I'm saying it because you brought it up, and I think maybe a little explanation might be in order. This is strictly MY feeling on it. You seem to think that the reason you're unpopular is because of honesty. It has nothing to do with your honesty.

There's a difference between being blunt/honest and being a jerk. No one has to be mean to be honest. You're not popular with me specifically because of that. Your brand of "honest" usually comes laced with venom. When called on it, you try to backpedal, drop the venom, and act like you didn't mean anything bad by it, so no one should be offended. But it's too late by then.

Yeah, there are people that don't like the truth. There are also people that are perfectly okay with discussing it, but not with someone that doesn't even know how to be civil. Don't lay the blame on other people by saying they can't handle the truth, and they want to be lied to--people's reactions aren't always wrong. You expect others to look at themselves and see the error of their ways because something _you said might be true_, but you could stand to do the same.

Not all of your posts are venomous. It's not like you're incapable.

The problem with the internet is that people think it gives them license to be @$$holes. It's not hard to say you're sorry for being a poophead. I've apologized for being a poophead to several people on the forum. It really doesn't hurt to say you're sorry. And mean it.


----------



## Rachel Schurig

NathanWrann said:


> I think the mods do a pretty good job. My only complaint is that they often lock a thread and leave the comment "thread locked for now while we discuss" but then the thread never gets updated with the results of the discussion. I'd like to know how those discussions worked out. I also don't like threads that get locked because the conversation has drifted and/or the OP is no longer posting in the thread. It overall keep up the great work!


I think the locked threads aren't always updated because the mods are busy, but I do agree that in some cases it might help the situation to know what was decided. The glutton thread in particular. I think my biggest issue with that whole thing was that the original thread was locked and then nothing else was said. I know this all happened the day Betsy was going to the Dr. for her foot, but the lack of response beyond "locked while we discuss" did bother me. I would have felt better about a very creepy situation if we would have at least gotten a "we're evaluating our WHOA policy" or "we're looking into it further/discussing with involved members." I'm sure PMs and such were happening behind the scenes, but for everyone else who read that thread and was disturbed by it, there was no other communication shared. It made it seem, to me at least, that the really serious issues that were brought up there were just going to be ignored.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18

JadeLogan said:


> There r posters saying they'll never return (who blames them), Certain 'respected' members have resorted to racist terms (Scalawag)


Maybe somewhere scalawag is these days a racist term, and I missed it, just as I missed the bad tone on KB that others are upset about, but as far as I ever knew, scalawag was a term that came into prominence during Reconstruction and was used as it is defined below (from the Etymology Dictionary). Maybe if we weren't all using magnifying glasses to look for insult where none is intended, or engaging people who do intend insult in too much back and forth, we'd have fewer problems.

_Scalawag - "disreputable fellow," 1848, American English, originally in trade union jargon, of uncertain origin, perhaps an alteration of Scottish scallag "farm servant, rustic" (by influence of wag "habitual joker"). An early recorded sense was "undersized or worthless animal" (1854), which suggests an alteration of Scalloway, one of the Shetland Islands, in reference to little Shetland ponies. In U.S. history, used from 1862 of anti-Confederate native white Southerners._

Edit: Sorry, if I had trucked through everything posted before I logged in today as I should have before posting, I'd have seen that others addressed the word definition issue. I stick with the basic sentiment though.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

FWIW (and confession, I did not read all 23 pages of posts)

I've self-banned. 

There have been times when I have felt very strongly about issues and gone toe-to-toe with members in this forum. I've had a few threads shut down and been chastised by the Great and Wonderful Betsy once or twice. When I find myself getting hot under the collar, I walk away. I have some great friends here that are friends in other places and/or have my email. 

Nothing says you have to be at KBoards every day. And all of the posts are search engine indexed. In all honesty, the moderation here saves us from ourselves. I don't even want to know the readers I may or may not have turned off with some of my more heated moments. 

I for one greatly value this place, and I'm glad we have it. And I highly recommend when you're getting upset about something to just walk away, go be busy elsewhere.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Rachel Schurig said:


> I think the locked threads aren't always updated because the mods are busy, but I do agree that in some cases it might help the situation to know what was decided. The glutton thread in particular. I think my biggest issue with that whole thing was that the original thread was locked and then nothing else was said. I know this all happened the day Betsy was going to the Dr. for her foot, but the lack of response beyond "locked while we discuss" did bother me. I would have felt better about a very creepy situation if we would have at least gotten a "we're evaluating our WHOA policy" or "we're looking into it further/discussing with involved members." I'm sure PMs and such were happening behind the scenes, but for everyone else who read that thread and was disturbed by it, there was no other communication shared. It made it seem, to me at least, that the really serious issues that were brought up there were just going to be ignored.


You're right; we should try to always add something. We do try to go back and put something in the post but sometimes we forget or get caught up in the next thing. I'll try to do a better job...

Betsy
(Neither great nor wonderful...just trying to rise to a hair above mediocrity... )


----------



## Cherise

ellenoc said:


> Maybe if we weren't all using magnifying glasses to look for insult where none is intended,
> 
> or engaging people who do intend insult in too much back and forth,
> 
> we'd have fewer problems.


I think "maybe" is too weak a word!

Formula for a better forum tone:

Don't insult people. You can disagree with people, but do not say or even insinuate that people are beneath you for having opinions that differ from yours.

If you see someone else insulting people on the forum, then do not respond to their posts. Page a moderator about it. Do not try to fix their behavior yourself. This will only escalate the situation.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Cherise Kelley said:


> Formula for a better forum tone:
> 
> Don't insult people. You can disagree with people, but do not say or even insinuate that people are beneath you for having opinions that differ from yours.
> 
> If you see someone else insulting people on the forum, then do not respond to their posts. Page a moderator about it. Do not try to fix their behavior yourself. This will only escalate the situation.


This^. I'm going to make a sampler for the KB foyer with this on it. Thanks.

Betsy


----------



## Guest

Cherise Kelley said:


> I think "maybe" is too weak a word!
> 
> Formula for a better forum tone:
> 
> Don't insult people. You can disagree with people, but do not say or even insinuate that people are beneath you for having opinions that differ from yours.
> 
> If you see someone else insulting people on the forum, then do not respond to their posts. Page a moderator about it. Do not try to fix their behavior yourself. This will only escalate the situation.


I would add:

Don't assume you are being insulted because someone disagrees with you. Remember that for all of our talk of tone, tone reflects poorly when it comes to online communication. There is no body language, no vocal inflection, and no facial expressions. All we have are our smilies.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I would add:
> 
> Don't assume you are being insulted because someone disagrees with you. Remember that for all of our talk of tone, tone reflects poorly when it comes to online communication. There is no body language, no vocal inflection, and no facial expressions. All we have are our smilies.


I wonder if we could use our writing talents to help set the mood. You know, use the emotion thesaurus and do things like that:

----------

She tapped her index repeatedly on the table, sighing. "Don't assume you are being insulted because someone disagrees with you."

She got up, walked to Cherise, and looked her in the eye. Her bothered expression changed into a crooked smile. "Remember that for all of our talk of tone, tone reflects poorly when it comes to online communication. There is no body language, no vocal inflection, and no facial expressions."

She winked. "All we have are our smilies."


----------



## Joel R. Crabtree

So it's agreed by all then? The consistent tone of the Writer's Cafe will be...mauve. (Hadda do it!)


----------



## Guest

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I wonder if we could use our writing talents to help set the mood. You know, use the emotion thesaurus and do things like that:
> 
> ----------
> 
> She tapped her index repeatedly on the table, sighing. "Don't assume you are being insulted because someone disagrees with you."
> 
> She got up, walked to Cherise, and looked her in the eye. Her bothered expression changed into a crooked smile. "Remember that for all of our talk of tone, tone reflects poorly when it comes to online communication. There is no body language, no vocal inflection, and no facial expressions."
> 
> She winked. "All we have are our smilies."


*applause*


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *applause*


*bows with pride*


----------



## Caddy

> I'm going to make a sampler for the KB foyer with this on it.


I'm hoping you'll make a matching quilt.


----------



## Guest

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> *bows with pride*


You know, now I think we need to pick a day where we all refer to ourselves in the third person. We have CAP LOCK WEDNESDAY. Maybe we need Third Person Friday?


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You know, now I think we need to pick a day where we all refer to ourselves in the third person. We have CAP LOCK WEDNESDAY. Maybe we need Third Person Friday?


She slammed on the table, her nostrils flaring. "Not fridays, it's the only day I have some time by myself to write!"


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Caddy said:


> I'm hoping you'll make a matching quilt.


Hmmm...a quilt about KB. Crazy quilt or charm quilt? 



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You know, now I think we need to pick a day where we all refer to ourselves in the third person. We have CAP LOCK WEDNESDAY. Maybe we need Third Person Friday?


Third person Thursday sounds better...


----------



## Rachel Schurig

Betsy the Quilter said:


> You're right; we should try to always add something. We do try to go back and put something in the post but sometimes we forget or get caught up in the next thing. I'll try to do a better job...
> 
> Betsy
> (Neither great nor wonderful...just trying to rise to a hair above mediocrity... )


You all do a _wonderful_ job and I am very appreciative of your efforts for the forum. I also appreciate Harvey addressing the tone issues and letting us all share our opinions on the subject.



Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I wonder if we could use our writing talents to help set the mood. You know, use the emotion thesaurus and do things like that:
> 
> ----------
> 
> She tapped her index repeatedly on the table, sighing. "Don't assume you are being insulted because someone disagrees with you."
> 
> She got up, walked to Cherise, and looked her in the eye. Her bothered expression changed into a crooked smile. "Remember that for all of our talk of tone, tone reflects poorly when it comes to online communication. There is no body language, no vocal inflection, and no facial expressions."
> 
> She winked. "All we have are our smilies."


Please, PLEASE can we start doing this with all our posts??


----------



## Guest

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hmmm...a quilt about KB. Crazy quilt or charm quilt?
> 
> Third person Thursday sounds better...


Fair enough! Then it's official!


----------



## vrabinec

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I wonder if we could use our writing talents to help set the mood. You know, use the emotion thesaurus and do things like that:
> 
> ----------
> 
> She tapped her index repeatedly on the table, sighing. "Don't assume you are being insulted because someone disagrees with you."
> 
> She got up, walked to Cherise, and looked her in the eye. Her bothered expression changed into a crooked smile. "Remember that for all of our talk of tone, tone reflects poorly when it comes to online communication. There is no body language, no vocal inflection, and no facial expressions."
> 
> She winked. "All we have are our smilies."


"Awsome! I'm definitely going this route from now on," he said, scratching himself.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell

valeriec80 said:


> I think Julie's entire post is spot on, but I really want to reiterate this.
> 
> I'm not saying the forum has really lost someone who would give back a lot to other writers, because it doesn't seem that we have.
> 
> But I am very uncomfortable with the idea that someone is being taken to task for his offsite fictional fantasies, and that he's being kicked off this forum because of it. It doesn't make me feel comfortable, considering my own fiction could be construed as disturbing (and, in fact, often is by certain one-star reviewers). I think that's a precedent that is a little terrifying to set.


In regards to the idea that glutton was banned because of his fantasies/fetishes and his writing used to support that, I don't see it that way, and here's why. Someone raised the point 'what if someone went after an erotica author for inclusion of bondage, submission, dubious consent, etc in his/her work', and its a fair point, but here's my issue with it:

Everyone has fantasies and fetishes, many of which would shock or horrify other people if disclosed. A fantasy or fetish in and of itself is not 'bad'.....so long as the person having it has a clear distinction between where fantasy ends and reality begins. Studies have revealed completely moral, ethical people who for one reason or another have rape fantasies....but the key thing is, they can distinguish their fantasy from reality, and be completely horrified and not even slightly aroused should the subject of rape come up in a real life setting.

The problem with glutton was not his fetish, as distasteful as I or others might have found it personally. The problem was he consistently demonstrated a distinct lack of awareness in regards to the fantasy nature of his fetish. His constant (some might say obsessive) inclusion of his fetish into other threads on this board were a circumspect way to engage other members in discussion of it....in effect to validate it. One doesn't need validation of one's fetish if they're cognizant its merely a fantasy and might be problematic if discussed in real life terms. Even before the thread with posts from other boards, I think most members were uncomfortable with his posts....we might have lacked the context to know what was really going on, but we at least felt awkward and aware that there was something weird about the obsessive nature of his posts. He himself blurred the line between private and public, and in essence invited - no, forced - other posters into an awareness and discussion of his private fetishes and fantasies. That was the issue here. That was what made other posters feel unwelcome and led to his banning, IMO.

Someone who has controversial fetishes or fantasies but has the awareness to keep them a private matter for behind closed doors and between mutually interested, consensual adult parties is a non issue. Someone who has controversial fetishes or fantasies but lacks the awareness to keep them a private matter, and inflicts discussion of them on parties who have indicated no interest in them whatsoever is an issue.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

vrabinec said:


> "Awsome! I'm definitely going this route from now on," he said, scratching himself.


I don't think we have an emoticon for that.

Betsy


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Ahaha, okay then one of you will have to post them because my thursday begins in your wednesday.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Kalen ODonnell said:


> In regards to the idea that glutton was banned because of his fantasies/fetishes and his writing used to support that, I don't see it that way, and here's why. Someone raised the point 'what if someone went after an erotica author for inclusion of bondage, submission, dubious consent, etc in his/her work', and its a fair point, but here's my issue with it:
> 
> Everyone has fantasies and fetishes, many of which would shock or horrify other people if disclosed. A fantasy or fetish in and of itself is not 'bad'.....so long as the person having it has a clear distinction between where fantasy ends and reality begins. Studies have revealed completely moral, ethical people who for one reason or another have rape fantasies....but the key thing is, they can distinguish their fantasy from reality, and be completely horrified and not even slightly aroused should the subject of rape come up in a real life setting.
> 
> The problem with glutton was not his fetish, as distasteful as I or others might have found it personally. The problem was he consistently demonstrated a distinct lack of awareness in regards to the fantasy nature of his fetish. His constant (some might say obsessive) inclusion of his fetish into other threads on this board were a circumspect way to engage other members in discussion of it....in effect to validate it. One doesn't need validation of one's fetish if they're cognizant its merely a fantasy and might be problematic if discussed in real life terms. Even before the thread with posts from other boards, I think most members were uncomfortable with his posts....we might have lacked the context to know what was really going on, but we at least felt awkward and aware that there was something weird about the obsessive nature of his posts. He himself blurred the line between private and public, and in essence invited - no, forced - other posters into an awareness and discussion of his private fetishes and fantasies. That was the issue here. That was what made other posters feel unwelcome and led to his banning, IMO.
> 
> Someone who has controversial fetishes or fantasies but has the awareness to keep them a private matter for behind closed doors and between mutually interested, consensual adult parties is a non issue. Someone who has controversial fetishes or fantasies but lacks the awareness to keep them a private matter, and inflicts discussion of them on parties who have indicated no interest in them whatsoever is an issue.


I think Kalen explains it perfectly. Also, Valerie, I don't recall you going around and obsessively hammering on creepy subjects. I have not read your books yet, though I have one ready on my Kindle to consume--I'll go there and read it next, just so I can tell you you don't cross the line! 

With glutton, we knew what his books were about without even reading them. And it was very obsessive, and he wouldn't stop, and would try to open discussions about it in ways he thought sneaky when he was told he creeped people.

I'm not someone that gets creeped easily. Yet I found his obsession very disturbing and annoying.


----------



## jackz4000

Sometime ago, when I first found KB I was trying to figure out what ebooks were. Sooner or later I wandered into the WC to see the author’s forum and it was quite different than now. It was warmer and friendlier and most tried to help each other out with good info and advice. Sure there were disagreements, but nothing like some of the crap I see recently and today. Sorry, I calls it the ways I sees it. It was also a much smaller board with less members posting and most helping each other. Since back then it has grown and attracted ALL types of different people wannabeeing authors. Some try to spam their book in the WC. 

   All with different agendas personalities and some are trolz just pushing the envelope. Some are jerks. Some hurl insults with impunity and yet bruiseth so easily. Some need more help than any internet forum can provide.

    Some are just disillusioned and just think they know it all and yet have no real experience or books to show for it, but have tons of great ideas for the Goldrush. It gets tedious. They come and they go. It must be even more tedious for the more experienced authors to read the drivel. Even if one of the experienced authors points out the problem to the noobie—the noob just has to fight that advice and things devolve. The noob says they bring fresh insight etc blah blah blah.

    These are a great minority.
  
    I think when I found KB there were 35,000 members—that number will soon double. There is so much more work for Harvey and the Mod Squad and not everyone plays nice. The sheer volume of more new very vocal members makes it a tough job.

    If I wanted to learn mountaineering or anything else I would be better served listening to the advice of the experienced mountain climbers, than someone who just began or someone who is thinking about mountain climbing. Give me the experienced mountain climber everyday rather than person who thinks they can do better their way.

    I just come to KB to learn a few things and get some info and usually it’s a very nice place. I learn much more from the experience members. Some times a few laughs too. Increasingly there are more rude know-it-all members and I usually skip those threads and posters. 

    Usually when you go to a restaurant or club or library there is behavior that is accepted and behavior that gets you kicked out. It should be the same here. KB is a public forum so when you come to Harvey’s House bring your manners and leave your rude at home.


----------



## vrabinec

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I don't think we have an emoticon for that.
> 
> Betsy


"Awsome! I'm definitely going this route from now on," he said, licking himself.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Better.


----------



## Adam Pepper

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Maybe we need Third Person Friday?


Adam would love that!


----------



## Zelah Meyer

vrabinec said:


> "Awsome! I'm definitely going this route from now on," he said, licking himself.


At least there's a smiley for that.


----------



## CraigInOregon

Steeplechasing said:


> If my mental arithmetic is correct, there are well over 2 million posts on Kboards. There are 3 moderators.
> 
> Joe


Good point, but also consider this: KBoards has been around a good amount of time. 2M posts is a lot, sure... but it's not 2M posts per day. It took years to get to that count.

I'm not saying that we're not a high-traffic site, or easy to moderate with a staff of three.

I am saying that one has to consider that number in perspective of how long it took to get there. A better number might be "average number of posts per day" in order to make your point.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Good point, but also consider this: KBoards has been around a good amount of time. 2M posts is a lot, sure... but it's not 2M posts per day. It took years to get to that count.
> 
> I'm not saying that we're not a high-traffic site, or easy to moderate with a staff of three.
> 
> I am saying that one has to consider that number in perspective of how long it took to get there. A better number might be "average number of posts per day" in order to make your point.


Also, are there not other moderators on other parts of the boards? I could bet I have seen at least two of them, though not frequently here in the WC. We don't say thanks to them enough!


----------



## burke_KB

jackz4000 said:


> Sometime ago, when I first found KB I was trying to figure out what ebooks were. Sooner or later I wandered into the WC to see the author's forum and it was quite different than now. It was warmer and friendlier and most tried to help each other out with good info and advice. Sure there were disagreements, but nothing like some of the crap I see recently and today. Sorry, I calls it the ways I sees it. It was also a much smaller board with less members posting and most helping each other. Since back then it has grown and attracted ALL types of different people wannabeeing authors. Some try to spam their book in the WC.
> 
> All with different agendas personalities and some are trolz just pushing the envelope. Some are jerks. Some hurl insults with impunity and yet bruiseth so easily. Some need more help than any internet forum can provide.
> 
> Some are just disillusioned and just think they know it all and yet have no real experience or books to show for it, but have tons of great ideas for the Goldrush. It gets tedious. They come and they go. It must be even more tedious for the more experienced authors to read the drivel. Even if one of the experienced authors points out the problem to the noobie-the noob just has to fight that advice and things devolve. The noob says they bring fresh insight etc blah blah blah.
> 
> These are a great minority.
> 
> I think when I found KB there were 35,000 members-that number will soon double. There is so much more work for Harvey and the Mod Squad and not everyone plays nice. The sheer volume of more new very vocal members makes it a tough job.
> 
> If I wanted to learn mountaineering or anything else I would be better served listening to the advice of the experienced mountain climbers, than someone who just began or someone who is thinking about mountain climbing. Give me the experienced mountain climber everyday rather than person who thinks they can do better their way.
> 
> I just come to KB to learn a few things and get some info and usually it's a very nice place. I learn much more from the experience members. Some times a few laughs too. Increasingly there are more rude know-it-all members and I usually skip those threads and posters.
> 
> Usually when you go to a restaurant or club or library there is behavior that is accepted and behavior that gets you kicked out. It should be the same here. KB is a public forum so when you come to Harvey's House bring your manners and leave your rude at home.


Speaking as a noob working on his first release, I don't see what the fuss is about. Maybe I spend too much time on YouTube and gaming forums, because kboards is PG compared to most of the internet. I mean, no one is paying my mom for sex or questioning my heterosexuality.

If the uber writers are so tired of the noobs, why not boot them until they have a book with 100 5 star reviews? Make the place invite only. That's how gaming sites do it. If you are not ranked, you are treated like the pathetic mouth breather that you are. But maybe that fascism produces all the homophobic, misogynistic and racist posts on those sites.

Personally, I prefer this forum's approach 

I appreciate the veterans who give useful advice. My research returns to this site, time and again, because unlike most of the get rich quick blogs, this place has real people doing real work. It's inspiring and educational.

I'd rather self filter, based on an Amazon author page, than have a moderator boot the noobs.


----------



## Jeff

CraigInTwinCities said:


> A better number might be "average number of posts per day" in order to make your point.


1095.26


----------



## luvmy4brats

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Also, are there not other moderators on other parts of the boards? I could bet I have seen at least two of them, though not frequently here in the WC. We don't say thanks to them enough!


Yes, there are a few others... I'm not nearly tactful brave enough to moderate the WC...


----------



## CraigInOregon

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The tragedy of this situation is nobody thought to just pull him aside and say "Dude, chill out" BEFORE it got to this point.


You're right, Julie.

In an ideal world, responsible men would indeed pull aside men who are "going overboard" and tell them to chill out. And there are certain people who would take that in the spirit intended and comply and say, "Yeah, sorry, I'll try to do better. Just got caught up in the moment. Sorry."

Or words to that effect.

However, what I've observed as time has passed is that there used to be a small percentage of people -- and it seems like that percentage only gets larger over time -- who resent ANY sort of "chill out" message from a peer.

These days (and especially in an online setting), the words, "Dude, chill out," are more likely to be met with defiance and an escalation in socially unacceptable behavior, than with any sort of de-escalation. And in the worst-case scenarios, the person asking someone to "chill out" simply gets added to that person's "s**t list."

That makes it harder to bother to speak out directly to the person behaving badly. Because experience tells you that, at best, you're going to be ignored anyway.

It'd be a better world if it weren't so.

To illustrate the difference, I sometimes share the story that, back when I was in college, I was part of a group of friends where, one of the guys got engaged. We all thought well of the guy, thought well of his fiancee, and thought the engagement was well-timed and a good match.

In a good-natured way, several of us took him aside the night of his bachelor's party and told him, in effect, "You found a good spouse here. Don't mess it up. You ever do anything to hurt her, you'll be dealing with us."

Were we overly worried about such a possibility? No. But even he understood the message in its intended spirit: we don't want to see you mess this up.

That sort of positive peer pressure seemed to have the desired effect: they have several kids and no reports of any serious problems in the marriage. (Though I'm sure, like any couple, they spat and argue on occasion, but nothing that gets out of hand.)

It was sort of a pre-emptive "dude, chill out" sort of action we took with him.

Want to know how often I've been told... usually by females, oddly enough... that what we did was violent, negative, Neandrathalic behavior? Many times.

Were any of us threatening him with immediate, serious bodily harm? Of course not. We just wanted him to think before he acted, so he wouldn't ever treat his wife-to-be in a less than respectful way.

I'm not sure that sort of thing happens anymore. It was already the exception to the rule back in the late 1980s, when we did that.

And now I'm just sounding like the typical "I'm older now and the world's gone to **** these days" sort of person, so I guess I'll hush up and crawl back into my writing cave.  Us Neandrathals weren't ALL bad, after all...


----------



## Lisa Grace

Luvmy5brats said:


> Yes, there are a few others... I'm not nearly tactful brave enough to moderate the WC...


You're a Steeler's fan, have five kids, and not brave enough for the WC? That is a surprise.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Guys are dense that way sometimes. It's like when you hear a teenager say "that's gay" or "that's retarded." They don't make the connection between the word and what they were actually saying.


That's sexist. If a guy had said something comparable about girls he would be lynched. Can't you see that? Or are girls dense that way?


----------



## CraigInOregon

Jeff said:


> 1095.26


There we go! That should certainly demonstrate better that modding here is no easy job.


----------



## luvmy4brats

LisaGraceBooks said:


> You're a Steeler's fan, have five kids, and not brave enough for the WC? That is a surprise.


Worse, I'm a Steelers fan that lives in Ravens country, with 5 homeschooled kids and still not brave enough. 

There aren't too many fights breaking out on the accessories, iThingies or troubleshooting boards.


----------



## merryxmas

Well if you mods are ever feeling overwhelmed I think I would make an excellent moderator judge/jury/executioner. My shoot first ask questions later philosophy is exactly what this place needs.

_*spits tobacco on the floor_

"Listen up! There's a new sheriff in town! I shoot from the hip and I have an itch on my trigger finger that can't be scratched."


----------



## Caddy

> Hmmm...a quilt about KB. Crazy quilt or charm quilt?


How about a crazily charming quilt? 



> Or are girls dense that way?


Maybe girls are, but women shouldn't be!


----------



## Leslie

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Also, are there not other moderators on other parts of the boards? I could bet I have seen at least two of them, though not frequently here in the WC. We don't say thanks to them enough!


There are six of us, plus Harvey.

L


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Luvmy5brats said:


> Worse, I'm a Steelers fan that lives in Ravens country, with 5 homeschooled kids and still not brave enough.
> 
> There aren't too many fights breaking out on the accessories, iThingies or troubleshooting boards.


Though, the worst knife fight we every had was one late night in Accessories. I was the only moderator on duty...

Betsy


----------



## Jeff

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Actually, that's quite misleading, too, as it includes the first year of KBoards (then KindleBoards) when hardly anyone was posting here.
> 
> The posts per day in February (I checked this twice), was over 200,000 posts per day....
> 
> Betsy


Oops. I didn't think about that. Sorry.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Actually, that's page views....that's what I get for looking up stuff while cooking dinner.


1322 posts per day in February


----------



## Jeff

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Actually, that's page views....that's what I get for looking up stuff while cooking dinner.
> 
> 
> 1322 posts per day in February


Total posts in February = 37,041. So far in March it's 27,692 posts.


----------



## 60169

Jeff said:


> Total posts in February = 37,041. So far in March it's 27,692 posts.


This thread alone feels longer than 27,692 posts. (And I've read every one of them... no wonder I never get any writing done.)


----------



## unkownwriter

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hmmm...a quilt about KB. Crazy quilt or charm quilt?
> 
> Third person Thursday sounds better...


Betsy, haven't you been reading this thread? 

Crazy, of course.


----------



## Ben Mathew

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Some people see a sexual predator. Frankly, I see a guy with p*ss-poor socialization skill and bad internet etiquette.


You are willing to take a deeply unpopular stance and I admire you for it. I'm impressed by the extent to which Julie and the mods and some others were willing to bend over backwards to tolerate a person who was making everyone terribly uncomfortable. In this instance, I agree with the majority that the forum is a better place without that person. But, I understand and respect the desire to keep this place as open as possible. It's a tough balancing act.


----------



## fallswriter

Thank you Moderators for your work in keeping WC a good reference place for writers as well as trying to keep it a tight community. One thing we forget is that in a community, we don't all agree. I like hearing all sides and points of view. I don't like seeing people get offended and go on the offense against those who disagree or question.

I would like to see more graciousness offered to those who offer services through the yellow pages or in threads for their business. On more than one occasion, I saw someone "hang their shingle" and get attacked. If you don't want to use their business, that's fine and your choice. But I fail to see how it creates "community" to attack someone and the skills they are trying to share. If they aren't good at their business, they will know by the silence. Silence is better. I really only want to see someone post an alert if said business person is known for doing shady business here or elsewhere - and an alert does not have to be an attack.

In general, I thank the WC participants for making me excited to get finished with my first WIP to get it out there. I see everyone going through all the stages that I do, and I know I'm not alone. Thanks.


----------



## Ben Mathew

fallswriter said:


> I would like to see more graciousness offered to those who offer services through the yellow pages or in threads for their business. On more than one occasion, I saw someone "hang their shingle" and get attacked. If you don't want to use their business, that's fine and your choice. But I fail to see how it creates "community" to attack someone and the skills they are trying to share. If they aren't good at their business, they will know by the silence. Silence is better. I really only want to see someone post an alert if said business person is known for doing shady business here or elsewhere - and an alert does not have to be an attack.


I agree with this. I think we should stop jumping on errors in posts announcing editorial services. People can judge for themselves if the post is well written and well edited. There's no need to point it out for everyone's edification. These are people trying to make an honest living, and if they aren't scamming anyone, let's not make life unpleasant for them. God knows this is a tough business for authors, editors, cover designers, and everyone else involved.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell

Ben Mathew said:


> I agree with this. I think we should stop jumping on errors in posts announcing editorial services. People can judge for themselves if the post is well written and well edited. There's no need to point it out for everyone's edification. These are people trying to make an honest living, and if they aren't scamming anyone, let's not make life unpleasant for them. God knows this is a tough business for authors, editors, cover designers, and everyone else involved.


If they're offering editing while having almost no editing skills, how are they not scamming people, or, at least, trying to scam people? Note that the people who need editing the most are the ones least able to judge for themselves if the post is well edited.

Darn, I'll do _anything_ today to keep from doing what I should be doing!

Here's an afterthought: it's not really fair to say 'scamming', since the prospective editor may actually think that he or she has the necessary skills.


----------



## Victoria Champion

Ben Mathew said:


> I agree with this. I think we should stop jumping on errors in posts announcing editorial services. People can judge for themselves if the post is well written and well edited. There's no need to point it out for everyone's edification. These are people trying to make an honest living, and if they aren't scamming anyone, let's not make life unpleasant for them. God knows this is a tough business for authors, editors, cover designers, and everyone else involved.


I'm going to have to disagree. I recently pointed out that a person offering editing services needed to work on their editing skills. But -- that person actually asked in the original post why her editing service wasn't taking off. I informed her of the reasons why and what she could do to remedy it. She chose to opt-out. I was very polite.


----------



## Cherise

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> Note that the people who need editing the most are the ones least able to judge for themselves if the post is well edited.


This.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell

Victoria Champion said:


> I'm going to have to disagree. I recently pointed out that a person offering editing services needed to work on their editing skills. But -- that person actually asked in the original post why her editing service wasn't taking off. I informed her of the reasons why and what she could do to remedy it. She chose to opt-out. I was very polite.


That's a good point. It's not just the prospective customer, but the prospective editor who might be blind to issues. The proper use of apostrophe's comes to mind. I saw a painful example today on the first page of a book that the author said was edited multiple times. (Yes, I know what I did there. It hurts my eyes too.)


----------



## Ben Mathew

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> Note that the people who need editing the most are the ones least able to judge for themselves if the post is well edited.


I disagree.

Sticking to copyediting/proofreading here:

Because editors don't do complete rewrites, I don't think bad writers will benefit much more from a great editor than they would from a mediocre editor. If a writer can't detect for himself the difference in the writing quality of editor A, who writes well, and editor B, who writes badly, that writer is unlikely to benefit much more from editor A than from editor B.


----------



## Ben Mathew

Victoria Champion said:


> I recently pointed out that a person offering editing services needed to work on their editing skills. But -- that person actually asked in the original post why her editing service wasn't taking off. I informed her of the reasons why and what she could do to remedy it. She chose to opt-out. I was very polite.


That is an entirely appropriate response. I'm not knocking constructive, polite criticism when a person requests feedback.


----------



## Ben Mathew

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> It's not just the prospective customer, but the prospective editor who might be blind to issues.


I have definitely seen posts by prospective editors who seem to be unaware of how bad they are. But I think a better response in those instances would be to PM them rather than skewer them publicly.


----------



## Leslie

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Though, the worst knife fight we every had was one late night in Accessories. I was the only moderator on duty...
> 
> Betsy


Was that when we were arguing about whether the korrect kolor was kiwi or kactus? 

L


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

LOL...no, it was pro-Oberon vs anti-Oberon covers...  

Betsy


----------



## Gennita Low

As a funny aside, I once clicked on the "Report to Moderator" by mistake on my own post. A little message box came on and scolded me "you can't report yourself, you silly thang."

I had a good laugh.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

I actually tried to report my own post for some reason once...can't remember why, now... and no, you can't report your own post.  

Also, if one accidentally hits the "report" link, one can use the "back" button on your browser to back out of th report gracefully...  Occasionally we get blank reports or reports with a comment "sorry, hit by accident."


Betsy


----------



## MegHarris

> LOL...no, it was pro-Oberon vs anti-Oberon covers...


Gasp! There are anti-Oberon people out there But those covers are so beeeeyoooootiful! Who could possibly be opposed to them??

(It's amazing what people can find to fight over, isn't it?)


----------



## DarkScribe

Cheryl M. said:


> Since this seems to be the "sharing" thread...
> 
> I'm not saying this because I want to start a huge fight over it. I'm saying it because you brought it up, and I think maybe a little explanation might be in order. This is strictly MY feeling on it. You seem to think that the reason you're unpopular is because of honesty. It has nothing to do with your honesty.


I don't consider whether or not I am unpopular here. I know from experience that when I am online I am often regarded rude, too blunt, offensive etc. It doesn't worry me in the least. I would only be concerned if someone who I know, like, and respect felt that way. As such people are those who I know in a real world sense this does not happen.



Cheryl M. said:


> There's a difference between being blunt/honest and being a jerk. No one has to be mean to be honest. You're not popular with me specifically because of that. Your brand of "honest" usually comes laced with venom. When called on it, you try to backpedal, drop the venom, and act like you didn't mean anything bad by it, so no one should be offended. But it's too late by then.


I don't backpedal - ever. I will firmly stick by anything I have said. If I don't genuinely mean it, I won't say it. I know you got p*ssed off because you came here as an editor and I pointed out flaws in your work. Maybe the quality of your work has improved, but it doesn't change that fact that what I said was accurate regarding what you presented at the time.



Cheryl M. said:


> Yeah, there are people that don't like the truth. There are also people that are perfectly okay with discussing it, but not with someone that doesn't even know how to be civil.


Now we are into semantics. Be civil. Be PC. Sugar coat the truth. Not how I work and never will be. I do NOT make mention of any of the constant stream of errors in posts or topic threads unless that person is touting their expertise as an editor. Editors can make mistakes, have typos, but if they can include such errors on a web site aimed at promoting their professionalism then they are in need of a jerk on the reins. I chose "jerk" deliberately as that is what you have called me.



Cheryl M. said:


> Don't lay the blame on other people by saying they can't handle the truth, and they want to be lied to--people's reactions aren't always wrong. You expect others to look at themselves and see the error of their ways because something _you said might be true_, but you could stand to do the same.


Sure, I make errors and if you can point them out I will actually be grateful - and amused. I can laugh at myself.



Cheryl M. said:


> Not all of your posts are venomous. It's not like you're incapable.


I am very capable. (Though I am not very modest. )



Cheryl M. said:


> The problem with the internet is that people think it gives them license to be @$$holes. It's not hard to say you're sorry for being a poophead. I've apologized for being a poophead to several people on the forum. It really doesn't hurt to say you're sorry. And mean it.


I am not the slightest bit different in real life. I do not say anything online that I would to a person's face. I might say I am sorry if what I say offends a person - I cannot help it if a person regards accurate criticism as an attack, but I will not apologise for telling the truth in a situation where I consider it to be possibly helpful. Such as when someone offers editing services and their work is clearly not at a professional level. I go by more than one or two errors in a post or on a webpage, but if they are constant and of a very basic nature - I will speak out. I also look at work they have done, and if that is sub-standard I will speak out strongly. A simple stroll through Amazon's one star reviews with all the comments on poor editing of work (work that lists an editor) will make it very apparent that there are a huge number of people offering services that they are incapable of delivering.

I do not knock everyone who offers online editing services, some work from Red Adept crossed my desk recently. They seem very capable and professional. I am sure that there are many others.

BTW, you are not "starting a huge fight over this" as I see nothing to fight over or debate. I also don't hold any form of grudge - I regard you as probably a decent person who - like many others - does not agree with me. You have said what you wanted to and I am fine with that. It doesn't offend me or annoy me.


----------



## Writerly Writer

I wanted to wait until the waters had calmed a little before posting here. Not trying to restart any of the topics. I do have something to contribute. 

2 years ago I finished my honours degree in psychology. In that last year I studied the effectiveness of communicating emotion through email/forums/IM over the internet. I'm an online therapist and have a large interest in online therapy using text. 

In short, I found that the text communication contributes to negative interpretation of emotional posts. Regardless of the type of words being used (valence) the amount of smilies that are used (emoticons), if a person is talking about a topic in first person and it's a personal topic then there is a tendency for it to be interpreted as negative. I controlled my study for preferences of topics too. So if a topic doesn't interest you that much, there's still a tendency for it to be interpreted negatively. So it's not just about 'personal sensitivity'. The medium itself contributes to the tone of a text written message. 

I also found it's very difficult to communicate postive emotions online without the use of exclamation marks and smilies. I've been working on an academic publication to contribute these findings to the greater scientific knowledge. 

So what to make of it? 

1. Be careful over your word choices in posts. There is an actual study that was done to measure the emotional reaction (positive and negative) to some words. It's not complicated, I bet everyone can all guess which words they would be. Just say the word out loud or read it in a message, if you are self-aware enough you'll feel a slight change in your body. Taking examples from a list; rape, murder, anger, hate, stupid, idiot, etc are all highly negative words. That, coupled with the tendency of text communication to be more negative in general, is almost bait for an argument. 


2. I do think of myself pretty as a knowledgeable person when it comes to communication. I think the point of it is to share our opinions with others. Most of the time, and especially in text, we perceive people disagreeing more often than not. It's easy to see others as taking some opposing, and sometimes strong, view to us. I really do believe most of us agree on more points than disagree. 

Instead of feeling defensive (okay, some instances warrant defensiveness, but think about how to handle your internal reaction with a little more tact) and reacting with equal strength in a reply post, stop and think about what it is you're trying to achieve. If you merely want to make a loud noise and express your feelings/emotions, then perhaps a private message or talking to the moderators is best. If you want to bring the other person over to seeing your side of the situation... then that is a reasonable goal. The goal should not be to make them agree with how you see it, but explain how the way you see it could be plausible, reasonable and even rational. 

If your goal is to communicate, then try to avoid heavily negatively valenced words. Avoid beginning sentences off with 'You', start them off with 'I think,' 'I feel,' And focus on the goal of the point you're trying to get across. Ultimately, I think we all want to have positive experiences here, or at least not negative ones. So it's important to contribute to that by doing our bit. 

That's it 

P.S. using happy emoticons to clarify the tone of sarcasm and joking is a MUST! 

Edited for typos.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Can we sign you up as our official KB therapist?


Betsy


----------



## Writerly Writer

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Can we sign you up as our official KB therapist?
> 
> 
> Betsy


HAHAHA! You're a funny lady, Betsy.

My mind boggles over how I could make that both ethical AND functional. In short, no thanks.


----------



## WHDean

KJCOLT said:


> I wanted to wait until the waters had calmed a little before posting here. Not trying to restart any of the topics. I do have something to contribute.
> 
> 2 years ago I finished my honours degree in psychology. In that last year I studied the effectiveness of communicating emotion through email/forums/IM over the internet. I'm an online therapist and have a large interest in online therapy using text.
> 
> In short, I found that the text communication contributes to negative interpretation of emotional posts. Regardless of the type of words being used (valence) the amount of smilies that are used (emoticons), if a person is talking about a topic in first person and it's a personal topic then there is a tendency for it to be interpreted as negative. I controlled my study for preferences of topics too. So if a topic doesn't interest you that much, there's still a tendency for it to be interpreted negatively. So it's not just about 'personal sensitivity'. The medium itself contributes to the tone of a text written message.
> 
> I also found it's very difficult to communicate postive emotions online without the use of exclamation marks and smilies. I've been working on an academic publication to contribute these findings to the greater scientific knowledge.
> 
> So what to make of it?
> 
> 1. Be careful over your word choices in posts. There is an actual study that was done to measure the emotional reaction (positive and negative) to some words. It's not complicated, I bet everyone can all guess which words they would be. Just say the word out loud or read it in a message, if you are self-aware enough you'll feel a slight change in your body. Taking examples from a list; rape, murder, anger, hate, stupid, idiot, etc are all highly negative words. That, coupled with the tendency of text communication to be more negative in general, is almost bait for an argument.
> 
> 2. I do think of myself pretty as a knowledgeable person when it comes to communication. I think the point of it is to share our opinions with others. Most of the time, and especially in text, we perceive people disagreeing more often than not. It's easy to see others as taking some opposing, and sometimes strong, view to us. I really do believe most of us agree on more points than disagree.
> 
> Instead of feeling defensive (okay, some instances warrant defensiveness, but think about how to handle your internal reaction with a little more tact) and reacting with equal strength in a reply post, stop and think about what it is you're trying to achieve. If you merely want to make a loud noise and express your feelings/emotions, then perhaps a private message or talking to the moderators is best. If you want to bring the other person over to seeing your side of the situation... then that is a reasonable goal. The goal should not be to make them agree with how you see it, but explain how the way you see it could be plausible, reasonable and even rational.
> 
> If your goal is to communicate, then try to avoid heavily negatively valenced words. Avoid beginning sentences off with 'You', start them off with 'I think,' 'I feel,' And focus on the goal of the point you're trying to get across. Ultimately, I think we all want to have positive experiences here, or at least not negative ones. So it's important to contribute to that by doing our bit.
> 
> That's it
> 
> P.S. using happy emoticons to clarify the tone of sarcasm and joking is a MUST!
> 
> Edited for typos.


It's an interesting line of research and if you haven't mined for research and tried submitting to communications journals (as opposed to just psych journals) I encourage you to do that. You might find more success there.

That aside, your thesis brings into question your recommendations. If people react negatively to text, careful diction isn't going to help much. Most people who've been around internet forums since the early days will tell you the same thing-it's common (if anecdotal) knowledge.

Now, I'm not knocking the moderation here-I have no gripe about it. But all my experience suggests that the biggest part of the solution is educating people about the very facts you've uncovered in your research. In other words, you have to spend as much or more time telling the thin-skinned people to cowboy-up as you do on the allegedly ill-mannered people. Threads blow up because people take things the wrong way-or read them in the worst light-as often as they do over people being "mean." Most "meanness" is just an effect of the medium that can't be overcome. People just have to adapt.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

KJCOLT said:


> HAHAHA! You're a funny lady, Betsy.
> 
> My mind boggles over how I could make that both ethical AND functional. In short, no thanks.


How about for just the admin staff? 

Betsy


----------



## DarkScribe

JRTomlin said:


> Being dishonest or mean or being upset if you decide to say someone's arse looks big has nothing to do with "being PC". PC has to do with not using offensive terms regarding gender, religion, race, or sexual orientation. Some people do claim that has gone too far. That is possibly true, but all to often the claim is made by people who simply want to be able to display their prejudice.
> 
> It doesn't relate to being a bit insensitive about telling someone their arse is too big.
> 
> As I said, I have no impression that you are in any way racist, homophobic or misogynistic which is why I found your comments puzzling.


I can be a nice guy.

Just a few minutes ago I saw this and immediately thought of you. (Her arse might not be too big, but her sword is another matter.)










Do you think that you could use it? I am sure that you could negotiate a reasonable price for it.


----------



## JRTomlin

Betsy the Quilter said:


> LOL...no, it was pro-Oberon vs anti-Oberon covers...
> 
> Betsy


I'm scared to even go to the accessories forum. And I'm not easily scared. 



DarkScribe said:


> Do you think that you could use it? I am sure that
> could negotiate a reasonable price for it.


The sword is bigger than she is!

ETA: But from the look on her face, I ain't gonna try to take that away from her.


----------



## Writerly Writer

WHDean said:


> That aside, your thesis brings into question your recommendations. If people react negatively to text, careful diction isn't going to help much. Most people who've been around internet forums since the early days will tell you the same thing-it's common (if anecdotal) knowledge.


I can see the point you're making here, but I disagree. If there is a tendency for the medium to be negative, then one can help avoid further excess negativity by avoiding emotional posts, strong word usage and trying to phrase their replies/posts in a more positive light than intended. Also, sticking to the facts tends to help. I don't think we should discount feelings on a topic, I think passion is important in forming arguments, but certainly one can be tactful about it. There's a thin line between being right and needing to be right. 
That's why I recommended people think about the purpose of their replies before responding. Often, before I reply to any posts I think to myself 'What can I contribute to this discussion?' or 'How can I best get my point across?'

An aside: The fact the medium has a tendency towards negativity should makes us all stop and assess ourselves, and others, in light of that before replying. It should make us more understanding and quick to forgive if miscommunication occurs. My understanding of human nature is more often than not, people don't want conflict, arguments or to be upset. And they certainly don't want to hurt each others feelings. If we operate from that place, it's a lot easier to catch ourselves before we jump into a discussion with guns blazing. You might even ask yourself 'Why am I so upset about this?'.

If I merely want to 'put someone in their place' (which is not something I find worth my time and is rarely fruitful), experience has told me that an effort to prove someone wrong, go on the attack or even get them to see how you feel goes astray more times than not.

I mentioned that even if a post isn't personal, there's still a tendency for it to be taken in a more negative light than neutral (because of the medium). But that doesn't mean the reader is taking a neutral post as offensive or insulting, just more negative.

By taking the 'personalisation' out of text you can help neutralise emotional interpretation. However, I think the most important message to take from my research is that when you are reading someone's reply in text you need to keep in mind your own biases towards drawing a negative interpretation. And that isn't a statement about 'you the reader', that's a statement about 'you the person using text to communicate feelings/thoughts'.

My recommendations for communication come from a collaboration of experience and education in communication skills + the research that I did and my previous post included recommendations from my research, but just from general communication experience and having read the copious amounts of posts in this forum.

As for your recommendation to submitting to communications journals, you've just reminded me to look into that, so thanks!!


----------



## Writerly Writer

Betsy the Quilter said:


> How about for just the admin staff?
> 
> Betsy


Oh, I don't think that's necessary. You all look like a reasonable bunch.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> "If there is a tendency for the medium to be negative"


Is the medium a computer screen? Does the same text have the same effect on paper?

What happens if there is an enforced delay in using the computer? Suppose a user can only receive messages on the hour, and can only type a reply on the half hour? Still negative?


----------



## Writerly Writer

Terrence OBrien said:


> Is the medium a computer screen? Does the same text have the same effect on paper?
> 
> What happens if there is an enforced delay in using the computer? Suppose a user can only receive messages on the hour, and can only type a reply on the half hour? Still negative?


Dear Terrence,

I am posting here my methods section from my study. I hope it answers your questions about my study's process. I should point out that this is one study, done by me in an honours year. My hypotheses were formed from my experiences as an online therapist and by researching previous papers. The empirical data, like all data, is contextual and while put through scientific rigor, we must remember that psychology is a humanities subject that uses statistics to ground what is typically unobservable phenomena. I wouldn't want to make any 'absolute' claims on what I discovered, but I do feel that the results I found were indicative of things I've been witnessing for some time.

*
Method
Participants*

The intended study required various statistical tests with the main analysis using four-way
ANOVAs with repeated measures, assuming a medium effect size (f = 0.25), alpha = .05 and
power at 0.8 a power analysis predicted that a sample size of 161 participants would be required.
Satisfying this requirement, a total 301 participants undertook this study; participants were
recruited from all over the world through Facebook, Twitter, email, The Online Therapy Institute's
magazine, online forums, blogs, Second Life and through The University of New England's
website. It was necessary for participants to speak English as their first language.

*Pilot Study*

A brief pilot study was conducted using seven participants. Each participant was provided
with an environmental topic email with the email nine conditions. The environmental email topic
gave a brief opinion on the status of the world environmental problems (see Appendix B). The
email series was the same for each of the seven participants and the email repeated across the nine
conditions mentioned in Table 1with Valence and TT modified (see Appendix B). In the case of
three of the emails four emoticons were used. These were all neutral, positive or negative
corresponding to the valence of the email. The pilot was intended to get feedback on how the
participants felt about the process and get a general idea of how the IVs affected the DVs. Each
participant answered on the nine different variations of the one email and found reading the same
topic monotonous (see Appendix B). The repetition of email topic content seemed to create
confounding factors for the participants. Participants also commented item structure. The study
showed that Positive Valenced emails were seen containing mainly strong positive emotions (Joy
and Interest Emotion) and were seen to contain more humour, laughter and admiration. Negative
valenced emails were seen to contain strong negative emotions and animosity, aggression and
resentment. Extraneous options such as Sarcasm, Resentment, Laughter, Admiration, Humour and
Animosity were provided as possibly occurring in emails alongside the emotions. Animosity was
indicated by a few people as being similar to aggression. Tone was also looked and it was clear
that the Negative Valence emails were perceived to contain Negative Tone. Neutral emails were
perceived to contain Neutral Tone and Positive emails seen to contain Positive tone. Initially all
TEEA conditions contained four emoticons, when several of the pilot study participants
complained about this it was reduced to two for the main study. Few alterations were made
between the pilot study IVs and the main study IVs and the 10 items kept relatively unchanged
(see Appendix B).

*Main Experimental Design and Materials*

The Positive and Negative Affect Scale (PANAS) was the only established scaled used for the
study (Crawford & Henry, 2004). The PANAS measures an individual's positive and negative
affect, with reported reliability coefficients of .89 for Positive Affect and .85 for Negative Affect
(Crawford & Henry, 2004). Due to the boredom incurred when responding to the same email
across teach of the nine email conditions, but using a different email for each, a mixed, Latinsquare
design was used to compare three levels of Participant Interest (Superordinate topics:
Global Politics, Environment and Celebrities) by three levels of Valence (Neutral, Positive and
Negative) by three levels of TT (TO), Text-Emphasis (TE) and Text-Emphasis-Emoticons-Actions
(TEEA). There were 27 groups and nine conditions for each participant. The conditions were the
main focus of the study as each of the groups contained the nine conditions (see Table 1). Due to
the randomisation of emails across the 27 groups (but all participants were still exposed to each of
the nine conditions) there were only 27 Text-Only (TO) original emails used so the other eight
conditions were generated from these (see appendix B). Nine emails were on subtopics related to
the main topic Global Politics (Bin Laden, Foreign Aid, Globalisation, Hunger, Poverty, Racism,
Waste Disposal in India, Women's Rights, World Military Spending) and there were nine for
Environment (Air Pollution, Deforestation, Genetic Engineering, Oil Spills, Overpopulation,
Poaching, Recycling, Rising Sea Levels and Water Crisis) and nine for Celebrities (Arnold
Schwarzenegger, Britney Spears, Charlie Sheen, Lindsay Lohen, Michael Jackson, Obama, Paris
Hilton, Rhianna, Tiger Woods All email topics were obtained from Youtube comments on the
relevant subject area. All emails that were chosen were ensured to have between four to seven
sentences long.

*Email Structuring*

Each TO based email had only basic punctuation; no exclamation marks, italicising or
underlining were used. Each TE based email contained two uses of italics two uses of underlining
and four uses of capitalising an entire word and four exclamation marks. The last TT condition
contained all the TE non-linguistic cues plus two emoticons and an action denoted by asterisks
(see appendix B for a list of emoticons used and actions used in emails)
The Valence condition was less systematic, but words chosen to represent the different
valences were taken from Bradley and Lang's (1999) review of reported Valence Means and
Arousal Means. Neutral emails avoided the use of emotion words that tended to produce valence
means higher than seven and lower than three. This was difficult at times because the study aimed
to modify the original message as little as possible while keeping the emails used in the study
systematic. The valence of the email was also balanced by the containing argument. The email was
aimed at giving a reasonable position that viewed both sides of an argument.

*Items
*

At the end of each email there were 10 questions/items. This group of Questions was the
same for every email except the first four content questions that were used to ascertain whether the
participant had read the email properly. The content questions were 'fill in the blank' statements or
questions about what the sender says about the topic. The fifth question asked what the sender was
trying to achieve by sending the email or the sender's motives; for example to 'express feeling' or
'start an argument' for a complete list, (see Appendix B). The sixth question asks what the
receivers perception of the senders tone is. The seventh asks for a rating on six emotions using a
Likert scale of 0 (not at all) - 5 (extremely): Fear, Anger, Sadness, Joy and Interest Emotion.
Question eight asks for any extra components such as sarcasm or humour (see Appendix A). The
ninth question asks for ratings, via a Likert scale of 1 (unimportant) - 5 (very important) of how
important the topic of the email was to the sender and the tenth question is structured the same as
the ninth, except the question is interested in how important the email is to the sender.
Qualtrics (Qualtrics, 2009) was used to deliver the test.

*Procedure
*
Permission was obtained from the Human Research Ethics Committee of the University of
New England (Approval No. HE11/051, valid to (01/04/2012). Each participant clicked on a link
that led them to the location of the study on the Qualtrics site. From there they read an informed
consent form stating that English must be their first language and informing them of details of the
study (see Appendix B). They then clicked an arrow to move onto the next page which contained a
paragraph stating that the participant had read the information contained in the informed consent
document and that they give permission to have their data recorded and used for the purposes of
the experimenter's thesis. Participants then indicated to what extent they experienced the emotions
on the PANAS scale. Mood was a precursor to the main study in case participant's moods were
affected by the study itself, and also so that their perception of their own mood was cemented
before they undertook the questions. Participants then rated the three main topic areas according to
interest. They were then randomly assigned to one of three Participant Interest levels, High
Medium or Low. From there they were randomly assigned to a set of nine emails irrespective of
their interest rating.

They were then prompted about the following email they were to read and presented the
email on a separate page (computer screen page); after reading the email they clicked the button to
answer the 10 questions. It was constructed this way so participants could not press the back
button. After the last email items were answer, the participants were asked questions on their
demographics (see Table 2). The demographics were left until last as to not confound the
responses to the experimental variables. Once enough data was obtained from participants, the
results were downloaded from the Qualtrics website and opened up in an excel worksheet and
'cleaned'. Three hundred and one participant's worth of data was left over after cleaning. The
cases that were removed contained missing data or the data contained fundamental errors as a
result of downloading from Qualtrics (Qualtrics, 2009).


----------



## Susanne O

Just to let you know that Glutton was banned from our forum last night. His posts have been cleaned up too.

He was lowering the tone of the establishment ...


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks,

Although we've intentionally allowed open airing of issues in this thread with little moderation, I've edited out a series of posts from the wee hours this morning (my wee hours, anyway) over an issue that had already been discussed here.  It became a rather emotional back-and-forth.  I've removed those posts and the "popcorn" posts that followed.  (To the popcorn lovers--please remember this thread was started about the tone here in the Writers' Café.)

The posts were removed both due to the nature of the back-and-forth that occured and to keep, as our US posters wake up, additional piling on from happening.

Anyone who has an issue with my moderation in this case (for example, you disagree with the removal of your post(s)) is welcome to contact me via PM.  Or to contact Harvey.

Thank you.  And thanks to all for the reports.

Third-party Thursday version:  Betsy edited out stuff.  Feel free to contact her. 

Betsy
KBoards Moderator


----------



## WHDean

KJCOLT said:


> I can see the point you're making here, but I disagree. If there is a tendency for the medium to be negative, then one can help avoid further excess negativity by avoiding emotional posts, strong word usage and trying to phrase their replies/posts in a more positive light than intended. Also, sticking to the facts tends to help. I don't think we should discount feelings on a topic, I think passion is important in forming arguments, but certainly one can be tactful about it. There's a thin line between being right and needing to be right.
> That's why I recommended people think about the purpose of their replies before responding. Often, before I reply to any posts I think to myself 'What can I contribute to this discussion?' or 'How can I best get my point across?'
> 
> An aside: The fact the medium has a tendency towards negativity should makes us all stop and assess ourselves, and others, in light of that before replying. It should make us more understanding and quick to forgive if miscommunication occurs. My understanding of human nature is more often than not, people don't want conflict, arguments or to be upset. And they certainly don't want to hurt each others feelings. If we operate from that place, it's a lot easier to catch ourselves before we jump into a discussion with guns blazing. You might even ask yourself 'Why am I so upset about this?'.
> 
> If I merely want to 'put someone in their place' (which is not something I find worth my time and is rarely fruitful), experience has told me that an effort to prove someone wrong, go on the attack or even get them to see how you feel goes astray more times than not.
> 
> I mentioned that even if a post isn't personal, there's still a tendency for it to be taken in a more negative light than neutral (because of the medium). But that doesn't mean the reader is taking a neutral post as offensive or insulting, just more negative.
> 
> By taking the 'personalisation' out of text you can help neutralise emotional interpretation. However, I think the most important message to take from my research is that when you are reading someone's reply in text you need to keep in mind your own biases towards drawing a negative interpretation. And that isn't a statement about 'you the reader', that's a statement about 'you the person using text to communicate feelings/thoughts'.
> 
> My recommendations for communication come from a collaboration of experience and education in communication skills + the research that I did and my previous post included recommendations from my research, but just from general communication experience and having read the copious amounts of posts in this forum.
> 
> As for your recommendation to submitting to communications journals, you've just reminded me to look into that, so thanks!!


I can concede that the effect of the medium on communication like the kind you described above can be controlled with word choice and so forth. But I can't see how word choice can moderate the rest of the spectrum-the more dialectical kids of communication. For example, "talking through" something involves arguments and counterarguments. The same goes for criticism. So, I can see your recommendations working and being good advice for therapy talk on the internet, no so much for editor and philosopher talk.

Of course-and this indirect support for the thesis-I've pretty much cut back my contributions here to areas you've defined because of the "perceived negativity." So have a lot of others, I'd say. I only post about a quarter of what I used to and I'll probably cut back on what I do now.


----------



## Guest

KJCOLT said:


> Regardless of the type of words being used (valence) the amount of smilies that are used (emoticons), if a person is talking about a topic in *first person * and it's a personal topic then there is a tendency for it to be interpreted as negative. I controlled my study for preferences of topics too. So if a topic doesn't interest you that much, there's still a tendency for it to be interpreted negatively.


***** sipped her coffee and contemplated this observation. She decided that this reinforced her belief that KB needed Third Person Thursdays to help improve the tone of the Writer's Cafe.


----------



## vrabinec

Fred eyed Julie's post with his usual judgemental disdain, wondering how the hell third person Thursday could possibly help the tone around here.


----------



## NoCat

Popped in. Looked around. Wait, it is Thursday already? She's doomed.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Betsy popped in, looked around and made sure her cattle prod was fully charged.


----------



## Satchya

Satchya timidly pokes her head out, thinking that perhaps third-person Thursdays may be the only completely safe time to enter this thread long enough to thank the Mods for their never ending hard work.


----------



## Lynn McNamee

Lynn catches up on her reading of this thread. 

She wonders how it came to be Thursday when it seems like only yesterday that it was Wednesday.   

She goes back to editing.


----------



## Steve Silkin

Lynn McNamee said:


> She wonders how it came to be Thursday when it seems like only yesterday that it was Wednesday.


Lynn's note reminded Steve what he told Fred when they went hiking recently.

"It was forty years ago that I met you. We were fifteen. First day of high school. Music theory class. First period."

Fred held his hands to his face.

"What? Stop! Why did you say that! Forty years!? What does that even mean? I can't even wrap my mind around that."

"It was 1972. And think of the forty years before that-our parents' forty years: 1932 to 1972. Think about that for a minute."

Steve's father died almost 30 years ago, his mother about 10 years ago. Fred was facing the challenge of caring for his parents as they struggled with the health problems of advanced age.

"Stop. I can't," Fred said. "Stop."


----------



## Lynn McNamee

Lynn finds Steve's post truly sad. 

Her mother (born in 1950) passed away last January. 

Lynn will be celebrating her 44th birthday in April... without her mother to sing "Happy Birthday," as per their tradition.

Lynn has a feeling that her birthday will be a sad event this year.


----------



## vrabinec

Fred, or Bedrich as he's known inside the family, sends Lynn a bouquet fo sympathy, and knows well the sorrows of losing one's mother, as he lost his mother last month and still has to pull over sometimes on the way home until he can clear his eyes. No more strudel. No more warnings ti watch his health. No more reminders to come over more often. No more instructions to be kind to his wife. No more hugs.


----------



## Lynn McNamee

vrabinec said:


> Fred, or Bedrich as he's known inside the family, sends Lynn a bouquet fo sympathy, and knows well the sorrows of losing one's mother, as he lost his mother last month and still has to pull over sometimes on the way home until he can clear his eyes. No more strudel. No more warnings ti watch his health. No more reminders to come over more often. No more instructions to be kind to his wife. No more hugs.


Lynn thinks there are far too many "no mores" with her mother gone, especially those she never imagined she'd miss. 

Lynn sends Fred an understanding hug.


----------



## Steve Silkin

Steve is mortified that he has saddened Lynn.

"That was too young for her to go," he tells her. "But she loved you, you loved her and that lasts forever."

That's the best that Steve can do, but it's not much, to paraphrase Leonard Cohen. Steve has been promising himself he will go to visit his parents' gravesite for a long time now and he has failed to translate that plan into action. And it's not all that far from his home and they are buried high on a hill, under a beautiful pine tree and there's a spectacular view up there. Maybe Lynn's note will push him to go on Sunday.

Steve sends his condolences to Bedrich, too, with hopes that the sadness of his loss is lightened by wonderful memories.


----------



## Sapphire

Sheryl's mother died just before Sheryl's 23rd birthday. That was over 44 years ago ("Was there a mistake on her birth certificate," she contemplates.) Nevertheless, to this day, she can be blindsided by an event that causes the following thought to briefly pass through her mind: "Oh, Mother will want to hear that one." The wonderful thing about the passage of time is that memories eventually bring smiles instead of tears.


----------



## Steve Silkin

It's a beautiful day in Los Angeles and Steve is about to leave his home for the drive to work southbound on Pacific Coast Highway. A landslide has blocked northbound traffic, so he isn't sure how much of a delay this will cause him—or whether the rest of the mountain will collapse right before he gets there, forcing him to turn around for a one-hour detour.  He's picked his music for what could turn into a very long drive—Cowboy Junkies, Blondie, Fine Young Cannibals, Ella Sings Cole Porter.

As he drives over the canyon to the beach, he'll be wishing everyone fond memories of the parents who have departed and deep appreciation for those still with us.


----------



## Justawriter

Now I understand how bummed out people get when they stumble into a thread that has an unnecessarily nasty tone. It's too bad that some people can't just exchange different ideas without getting overly defensive and rude. I can see how it could make someone less inclined to spend time here. I hope that people can be more respectful towards each other and realize they can have differring opinions without getting angry because those opinions are different.


----------



## Nick Endi Webb

PamelaKelley said:


> Now I understand how bummed out people get when they stumble into a thread that has an unnecessarily nasty tone. It's too bad that some people can't just exchange different ideas without getting overly defensive and rude. I can see how it could make someone less inclined to spend time here. I hope that people can be more respectful towards each other and realize they can have differring opinions without getting angry because those opinions are different.


No, Pamela. Like _this_:

Pamela finished reading the thread and dropped her head, shaking it in disgust. Now she understood how bummed out people get when they stumble into a thread that has an unnecessarily nasty tone. Why can't people just exchange different ideas without getting defensive and rude? She could see how it could make someone less inclined to spend time there, and hoped that people would be more respectful towards each other and realize they can have differring opinions without getting angry because those opinions are different. With a heavy heart, she sighed, closed her laptop, and unmuted _Big Bang Theory._


----------



## Cherise

Steve Silkin said:


> It's a beautiful day in Los Angeles and Steve is about to leave his home for the drive to work southbound on Pacific Coast Highway. A landslide has blocked northbound traffic...


Cherise lost her father a few months ago, but Steve just made her smile at memories of playing football on a mudslide on Pacific Coast Highway when she was in junior high.

"Thanks for bringing up that memory," she says with a smile.


----------



## vrabinec

Fred sends Cherise an internet hug, and runs off to hug his father while he still can.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell

Kalen is just really confused.


----------



## Lisa Grace

Lisa chuckled as she read Julie's post written in the third person. She reached for her coffee mug, took a sip, and noted how quickly the brew had become lukewarm. 

She went back and read Betsy's post about the brou-ha-ha that was erased from the night before, wishing someone would PM and clue her in. While not much for one for popcorn during back and forths, she did wonder what she had missed and between whom.

The other notes on losing parents made her grateful hers were still alive and sad for those who had suffered through such a loss.


----------



## Adam Pepper

vrabinec said:


> Fred sends Cherise an internet hug, and runs off to hug his father while he still can.


That is a good idea. Adam's father passed away recently and they were not on good terms. Now he lives with the knowledge that there will never be a make-up hug.


----------



## Justawriter

Endi Webb said:


> No, Pamela. Like _this_:
> 
> Pamela finished reading the thread and dropped her head, shaking it in disgust. Now she understood how bummed out people get when they stumble into a thread that has an unnecessarily nasty tone. Why can't people just exchange different ideas without getting defensive and rude? She could see how it could make someone less inclined to spend time there, and hoped that people would be more respectful towards each other and realize they can have differring opinions without getting angry because those opinions are different. With a heavy heart, she sighed, closed her laptop, and unmuted _Big Bang Theory._


----------



## CMTheAuthor

I do have to wonder how seriously people will take this sort of thread when the whole thing has devolved into an effort to create a new inside joke. While humor is appreciable (I bake plenty of it into my writing), some things do deserve to be taken fairly seriously.

(Naturally, someone will try to re-write my post in third person too, completely missing my point.)


----------



## vrabinec

Fred studies CM's post and wonders if there could be any more crap squeezed out of the finger pointing, mod blaming, and peeve airing that went on earlier in the thread. Is it possible that some good could come out with additional back and forth about who believes they've been mistreated, and who supports the mods, and who is on the brink of leaving if the tone doesn't change? He doesn't think so. Yes, it's a good subject, but since everyone who participated in the thread didn't make some proclamation at the end of it that they promised to be more civilized as Fred had wanted in the "are we all going to have a group hug when we're done here" comment, then he thinks it's better that the bitterness that come out in this thread is buried somewhere with the Titanic. Though, if anyone else is up for it, Fred is willing to go first and make the proclamation that he will make an attempt to be more civil in his posts. but only if someone else goes first.


----------



## Steve Silkin

Adam Pepper said:


> Adam's father passed away recently and they were not on good terms. Now he lives with the knowledge that there will never be a make-up hug.


Steve sits down with Adam at the Imaginary Bar and buys him a drink.

"That is tough," he says. "My mom and I did not get along. Years passed and we could barely speak to each other without fighting. Finally, she couldn't walk any more and reached out to me for help. She was able to set aside her hard feelings and I was able to do the same. I am so grateful that we were able to become friends again in her last two years. I wish you could've found that same resolution."

They sip their drinks. Adam says ....


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> "I am posting here my methods section from my study."


OK. I see what you are doing. Interesting. I've often wondered what McLuhan would have said about all this.


----------



## JRTomlin

DarkScribe said:


> I have never used offensive terms in those areas, yet I am constantly accused of being "non-PC" for failing to sugar coat my opinions. That is never going to happen. Many people regard being PC as never giving offence, never saying anything that might hurt someone's feelings. I will discuss many issues involving racism, discrimination, misogyny, but in a lot of cases as soon as I say anything at all negative about an issue I am accused of being politically incorrect. I was accused of being a racist recently for suggesting that Islamic Clerics should - like Christian or Jewish clerics - be formally trained and required to pass a minimum standard of religious competence before being able to preach or teach. It would reduce the influence and impact of inflammatory clerics who teach things that are not in the Koran. I don't regard my suggestion as racist - it would lessen a lot of the current resentment that some hold for Muslims.
> 
> I have no problem with any of those on your list other than organised religion. I object strongly to those who turn religion into an industry - and I make my objection known. I am a Christian atheist.


I would also object to turning religion into an industry -- if I were religious. Since I'm not, I pretty much stay out of religious topics. It's not my business to tell people who are religious how to do things unless it slops over into a non-religious context. (When religious leaders make public assaults on my rights I tend to get my panties in a twist) I wouldn't otherwise consider it a good idea to tell a religion in which I don't believe how to behave or solve their problems. I would say your comments about Islam might not have been non-PC, but they were almost certainly unwise. (Islamics aren't the only religion to have some serious problems, let me point out)

As far as religious insults, does that include (just as an example) insulting terms for Jews? Or for that matter Islamics? Whether it is made an industry or not, insulting people because of their religion is not "ok". 

And no, just insulting someone on a personal level or being mean does not have anything to do with political correctness, but it may be that some of what you consider "innocent" insults look gender-based to someone else. Men, for example, are rarely attacked in the way women are for being overweight. You can't always see the world through other people's eyes. Or they simply may not understand the term.


----------



## Adam Pepper

Steve Silkin said:


> They sip their drinks. Adam says ....


Thanks Steve!


----------



## Lynn McNamee

vrabinec said:


> Though, if anyone else is up for it, Fred is willing to go first and make the proclamation that he will make an attempt to be more civil in his posts. but only if someone else goes first.


Lynn stands up and clears her throat. "Well, I am willing to give up my campaigning for a Queen of Mean nomination and make that declaration. I, Lynn McNamee, will endeavor to be more civil in my posts."


----------



## vrabinec

Fred laughs. _Ha, ha, got her to do it!_ He thinks about what a jerk he'd be if he went back on his word and didn't join her. _d*mn, if only more people would join in, it would be easier. _ What would be the use of only two people pledging to be more civil? Well, if only two people are willing to step up, he figures it's better than none. He fights down his stage fright and steps to the microphone. "I, Fred, vrabinec, Bedrich Pasek VIII do hereby proclaim that I will keep my posts more civil."
_Whew. That wasn't so hard after all_.

He shuffles off, wondering, wondering if they'll stare at the freaks who've pledged to be more civil. Will they laugh at them. Will they scorn them and send messages back ond forth about how "quaint" they are? Will the mock them in their hearts?


----------



## Gennita Low

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Lisa chuckled as she read Julie's post written in the third person. She reached for her coffee mug, took a sip, and noted how quickly the brew had become lukewarm.
> 
> She went back and read Betsy's post about the brou-ha-ha that was erased from the night before, wishing someone would PM and clue her in. While not much for one for popcorn during back and forths, she did wonder what she had missed and between whom.


Gennita returned home tired from work and realized belatedly that her posts were deleted in a certain late night brouhaha. She wanted to add she was just agreeing with somebody's very delicate and diplomatic answer to a long-winded demand for justice. The wife of somebody who had gone on vacay for the weekend also posted when suddenly, that person, the one with a degree in intense aplomb, blasted with vehemence that everyone here had gone insane. A few people blinked and started microwaving popcorn. In short, it was an explosion that would have invited a bigger explosion of this thread today.

Gennita, sitting here at her computer, is somewhat relieved a cattle prod showed up this morning. She rubs her feet against her doggie under the table. Ah, yelling on the Internet isn't as fun as yelling on the roof.


----------



## Ignis_Designs

Bridgette too is relieved by the mornings appearance of the cattle prod weilding quilt wearing mod. Her eyes might also be a little treaty thinking of her parents who are thankfully still around.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Harvey thinks that there just might be something to this Third Person Thursday crackpot idea. His eyes glisten at the good-hearted posts before him. He settles back in his faux-leather office chair, blows a long breath out towards the ceiling fan, and says a quiet thank you for the caring and thoughtful people in this community.


----------



## Lynn McNamee

vrabinec said:


> Fred laughs. _Ha, ha, got her to do it!_ He thinks about what a jerk he'd be if he went back on his word and didn't join her. _d*mn, if only more people would join in, it would be easier. _ What would be the use of only two people pledging to be more civil? Well, if only two people are willing to step up, he figures it's better than none. He fights down his stage fright and steps to the microphone. "I, Fred, vrabinec, Bedrich Pasek VIII do hereby proclaim that I will keep my posts more civil."
> _Whew. That wasn't so hard after all_.
> 
> He shuffles off, wondering, wondering if they'll stare at the freaks who've pledged to be more civil. Will they laugh at them. Will they scorn them and send messages back ond forth about how "quaint" they are? Will the mock them in their hearts?


Lynn pauses in her editing of _Canvas Bound_ to tell Fred, "No worries. 'More civil' is pretty relative. Don't you think?"


----------



## Steve Silkin

Harvey said:


> Harvey thinks that there just might be something to this Third Person Thursday crackpot idea.


Steve rubs his hands and grins at the computer screen.

"Just wait until he sees Second-Person Saturday."


----------



## KBoards Admin

Or Omniscient Sunday should be interesting.


----------



## Lynn McNamee

Lynn suggests Unreliable Narrator Monday.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Conspiracy Theory Tuesday.

It is whispered — but those who do disappear — that "certain parties" don't want us to discuss these things.


----------



## Eric C

"I know what all of you are thinking," Eric said in third person omniscient, "and you should be ashamed of yourselves."


----------



## Steve Silkin

"Go ahead and believe that," Steve said to Eric. He had long been wearing his aluminum helmet, which blocked the rays of Eric's third-person omniscient machine from penetrating his skull.


----------



## Guest

Lynn McNamee said:


> Lynn stands up and clears her throat. "Well, I am willing to give up my campaigning for a Queen of Mean nomination and make that declaration. I, Lynn McNamee, will endeavor to be more civil in my posts."


***** confesses that she bribed Fred to trick you into making that declaration to clear away potential threats to her crown. In fact, this entire thread has been an orchestrated ploy to fool people into dropping their bids.

For this is the true way of the Sith.


----------



## Guest

Harvey said:


> Or Omniscient Sunday should be interesting.


    

***** scribbles furiously for a few moments on a piece of paper, then uses Betsy's *I Heart Quilts* magnet to post the following note on the community fridge:

*ASSIGNMENTS

Harvey: Omniscient Sunday
Lynn = Unreliable Narrator Monday
Andrew = Conspiracy Theory Tuesday
Dayla = CAP-LOCK WEDNESDAY
***** = 3rd Person Thursday
To be assigned = Friday (?)
Steve = Second Person Saturday*​
Her task complete, she finishes her evening coffee (yes, she drinks real coffee even late at night and still goes right to sleep) and prepares for bed.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Betsy thought there was already something on Friday?  Guilt-free Friday?  Or something?  She heads off to check her records....


----------



## Kalen ODonnell

Kalen really wants to make assumptions about the True, Sekrit, and Actually Quite Rude hidden meanings behind several of his fellow posters' seemingly innocuous words, but he's worried that head-hopping is a ban-worthy offense on Third Person Thursdays.


----------



## vrabinec

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Betsy thought there was already something on Friday? Guilt-free Friday? Or something? She heads off to check her records....


The way fred remembers it, it was Topless Friday.


----------



## Becca Mills

Oh for crying out loud! I claimed Friday on like the first page of this thread! No-Filter Friday! Let's have it.


----------



## Lisa Grace

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Julie scribbles furiously for a few moments on a piece of paper, then uses Betsy's *I Heart Quilts* magnet to post the following note on the community fridge:
> 
> *ASSIGNMENTS
> 
> Harvey: Omniscient Sunday
> Lynn = Unreliable Narrator Monday
> Andrew = Conspiracy Theory Tuesday
> Dayla = CAP-LOCK WEDNESDAY
> Julie = 3rd Person Thursday
> To be assigned = Friday (?)
> Steve = Second Person Saturday*​
> Her task complete, she finishes her evening coffee (yes, she drinks real coffee even late at night and still goes right to sleep) and prepares for bed.


Frequent Hopping Heads Fridays?

Lisa said, "Thank you" to Gennita for her enlightening post.


Spoiler



And quietly thank the PM poster too.


----------



## purplepen79

People's bittersweet posts about parents who are gone but not forgotten lures Purplepen out of lurkdom to express her condolences.  Purple misses her own parents and knows what it's like to want to pick up the phone and call Mom and Dad but not have the number for heaven (except a few times in dreams over the last several years).  Purple likes to think that her parents, who were both self-employed artists and inspired her by their example to self-publish, are hanging out with all the other artists in heaven and painting some of the really awesome sunsets she's seen lately.  Being a night owl, Purple never sees the sun rise but is grateful everyday that it does.  She is also grateful for the time she had with her parents as she knows not everyone gets that.

And Purple is grateful for Kindleboards and appreciates the job the moderators do.  Now she will scurry back to lurking, perhaps to pop out and say hello on another thread . . .


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Betsy's records show that Fat Free Friday has already been claimed and assures Becca that Filter-Free Friday won't be happening...  And charges up the cattle-prod for James and Fred.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell

Kalen asserts that Betsy is discriminating against people who like to swear and he won't stand for it, by gosh.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Betsy contemplates the idea of a giant hand coming out of the sky and covering people's mouths to actually prevent them from swearing.


----------



## Gina Black

Gina took another sip of her IPA thinking that what the KBoards need more of is beer because it makes everything seem reasonable and friendly.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Betsy contemplates the idea of a giant hand coming out of the sky and covering people's mouths to actually prevent them from swearing.


Kalen wonders if this application of a giant hand coming out of the sky would work as an alternative for Betsy. Covering peoples' mouths all willy nilly just sounds unsanitary.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Kalen wonders if this application of a giant hand coming out of the sky would work as an alternative for Betsy. Covering peoples' mouths all willy nilly just sounds unsanitary.


Betsy sips her ice water and makes note to ask Harvey if he can add Kalen's idea....


----------



## Becca Mills

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Kalen wonders if this application of a giant hand coming out of the sky would work as an alternative for Betsy. Covering peoples' mouths all willy nilly just sounds unsanitary.


Oh shit!!!

<Becca hides under a rock>


----------



## KBoards Admin

Harvey discards idea of giant animated bar of soap wiping out an avatar's mouth, in favor of the more discrete Victorian hand-covered mouth.


----------



## Lynn McNamee

As she was unaware of the gravity of the suggestions at the time, Lynn would like to change hers to Grammatically Correct Monday.

On GCMs, everyone must write grammatically correct posts, or others will be allowed to correct them with impunity.


----------



## JRTomlin

vrabinec said:


> Fred laughs. _Ha, ha, got her to do it!_ He thinks about what a jerk he'd be if he went back on his word and didn't join her. _d*mn, if only more people would join in, it would be easier. _ What would be the use of only two people pledging to be more civil? Well, if only two people are willing to step up, he figures it's better than none. He fights down his stage fright and steps to the microphone. "I, Fred, vrabinec, Bedrich Pasek VIII do hereby proclaim that I will keep my posts more civil."
> _Whew. That wasn't so hard after all_.
> 
> He shuffles off, wondering, wondering if they'll stare at the freaks who've pledged to be more civil. Will they laugh at them. Will they scorn them and send messages back ond forth about how "quaint" they are? Will the mock them in their hearts?


*snickers and points at the people being civil and then looks for the number of the lads in white coats for the writers who've taken to referring to themselves in third person*


----------



## Clare K. R. Miller

Clare is delighted to find that it's Third-Person Thursday and is glad she kept following this thread. She's disappointed that she didn't remember earlier until she realizes that if she'd gotten on KB earlier, she might not have gotten any writing done.

She would also like to express her whole-hearted support for Grammatically Correct Monday. "Hear, hear!"


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell

Lynn McNamee said:


> As she was unaware of the gravity of the suggestions at the time, Lynn would like to change hers to Grammatically Correct Monday.
> 
> On GCMs, everyone must write grammatically correct posts, or others will be allowed to correct them with impunity.


I like that!

Hmm, correct by which standards? (I went out and bought a copy of the Chicago Manual of Style, just as I said I would. )


----------



## DarkScribe

JRTomlin said:


> I would also object to turning religion into an industry -- if I were religious. Since I'm not, I pretty much stay out of religious topics. It's not my business to tell people who are religious how to do things unless it slops over into a non-religious context. (When religious leaders make public assaults on my rights I tend to get my panties in a twist) I wouldn't otherwise consider it a good idea to tell a religion in which I don't believe how to behave or solve their problems. I would say your comments about Islam might not have been non-PC, but they were almost certainly unwise. (Islamics aren't the only religion to have some serious problems, let me point out)


I am good at unwise. Lots of practice.



JRTomlin said:


> As far as religious insults, does that include (just as an example) insulting terms for Jews? Or for that matter Islamics? Whether it is made an industry or not, insulting people because of their religion is not "ok".


I am not sure why you ask this, I have never given cause for such a query. I am a writer, I do not need or use pejorative or derogatory expressions when addressing an issue. I find such use offensive - but then I do not curse in private life either. I can make my feelings known without the use of such language.

If my not agreeing with people regarding their beliefs is insulting - then so be it. I will not pretend to believe something to please someone and I will not ignore it if they push it in front of me. On the other hand I don't go looking for it either. I have an opinion, not a bone to pick. It might interest to know that I put all of my children through religious schools and did not express opinion in their hearing that would undermine what they were taught. I allowed them to form their own opinions.



JRTomlin said:


> And no, just insulting someone on a personal level or being mean does not have anything to do with political correctness, but it may be that some of what you consider "innocent" insults look gender-based to someone else. Men, for example, are rarely attacked in the way women are for being overweight. You can't always see the world through other people's eyes. Or they simply may not understand the term.


I don't make ad hominem attacks. I will disagree with a philosophy, a belief, an action, a statement, etc., but not with the person - on a personal level. I might say that the Flat Earth Society (or Scientology) is a ludicrous organisation, but I would not say to a member "you are an idiot". (Though I would possibly think that.)


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin

AmsterdamAssassin is confused. Is it Thursday or Friday? Being in a different timezone might make his posts inappropriate. Maybe just forget about Writer's Cafe and return to the four writing projects clamouring for attention...


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> AmsterdamAssassin is confused. Is it Thursday or Friday? Being in a different timezone might make his posts inappropriate. Maybe just forget about Writer's Cafe and return to the four writing projects clamouring for attention...


Nathalie interrupted AmsterdamAssassin: "During the hours between our Friday and the end of their Thursday, we have to make our posts 3rd person AND fat-free."

She sprinkled some oatmeal around before heading back to her WiP.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Well, it's Friday even in Hawaii in the US...

*picks up some of Nathalie's oatmeal and sprinkles it in some non-fat strawberry-banana yogurt.*

DarkScribe and JRTomlin, please either take the pledge or move on.    I know both of you like to argue, but consider the likelihood of either of you changing the other's mind.  And this thread is NOT going to be a discussion of religion.  Have some jellybeans (100% fat-free.  You can check the packaging.  )

Betsy


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Nathalie interrupted AmsterdamAssassin: "During the hours between our Friday and the end of their Thursday, we have to make our posts 3rd person AND fat-free."


Nah, I'll just get bloody writing the next chapters in the Amsterdam Assassin Series...


----------



## Guest

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Well, it's Friday even in Hawaii in the US...
> 
> *picks up some of Nathalie's oatmeal and sprinkles it in some non-fat strawberry-banana yogurt.*
> 
> DarkScribe and JRTomlin, please either take the pledge or move on.  I know both of you like to argue, but consider the likelihood of either of you changing the other's mind. And this thread is NOT going to be a discussion of religion. Have some jellybeans (100% fat-free. You can check the packaging. )


My coffee is fat-free, as I drink it black.


----------



## Gennita Low

Gennita in third person feels phat-free.


----------



## vrabinec

I don't like Fat-free Friday. I like fat. Can't we come up with something better? Okay, topless was a bad idea. It wasn't even alliterative. Let's see. We need something that's fun. I mean, lots and lots of fun. What starts with the letter f and is all kinds of fun ffffffff....I'm drawing a blank. Anyone? Got any suggestions? Something everyone likes to do. Come on people, we can think of something.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

vrabinec said:


> I don't like Fat-free Friday. I like fat. Can't we come up with something better? Okay, topless was a bad idea. It wasn't even alliterative. Let's see. We need something that's fun. I mean, lots and lots of fun. What starts with the letter f and is all kinds of fun ffffffff....I'm drawing a blank. Anyone? Got any suggestions? Something everyone likes to do. Come on people, we can think of something.


FLOB.
*quickly goes before Betsy steals her last popcorn bag*


----------



## Caddy

Caddy wonders what in the world Fat Free Friday is and wishes Lisa's idea of Frequent Head Hopping Friday would be chosen instead, as it makes more sense for authors. I would love to head hop on some people here!  In a good way, of course!


----------



## KBoards Admin

Careful, please, good people... no getting in the "last word" after a moderator has issued a cease and desist.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Caddy said:


> Caddy wonders what in the world Fat Free Friday is and wishes Lisa's idea of Frequent Head Hopping Friday would be chosen instead, as it makes more sense for authors. I would love to head hop on some people here! In a good way, of course!


Do a search in just the WC for "fat free Friday" -- I think it was for celebrations not actual fat free. I was hoping someone who took part in some would chime in. On my way to Charlottesville...

Sent from Killashandra, my Fire HD8.9 4G


----------



## JRTomlin

Harvey said:


> Careful, please, good people... no getting in the "last word" after a moderator has issued a cease and desist.


I missed Betsy's "cease and desist". I'll go back and see if I can delete the comment. I have no particular desire for the last word in our little debate.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

One would think that writers could find other ways to avoid referring directly to themselves than using the pedestrian third person singular. But then again, one shouldn't expect too much, should one?


----------



## Victoria Champion

Andrew Ashling said:


> One would think that writers could find other ways to avoid referring directly to themselves than using the pedestrian third person singular. But then again, one shouldn't expect too much, should one?


I'm going to refer to myself as Andrew.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Victoria Champion said:


> I'm going to refer to myself as Andrew.


Victoria thinks this a splendid idea.


----------



## vrabinec

I'm gonna refer to myself as the hot, howling winds of Sphinct.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

vrabinec said:


> I'm gonna refer to myself as the hot, howling winds of Sphinct.


Why is Betsy not surprised? (yeah, I'm Betsy now)


----------



## vrabinec

What? It's the place in Egypt with the lions with the men's faces and busted noses. I've always wanted to head up there.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

vrabinec said:


> What? It's the place in Egypt with the lions with the men's faces and busted noses. I've always wanted to head up there.


Isn't that... the Sphin*x*?

THE SPHINCT.   
You made my day.


----------



## vrabinec

Wait, Sphinct is the singular of Sphinx, isn't it?


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

vrabinec said:


> Wait, Sphinct is the singular of Sphinx, isn't it?


I don't know if you're kidding or if I have to really answer that.


----------



## vrabinec

It's Friday.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell

Always assume the worst with vrabinec.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

We're going by new names now? Well. Fine. Time to bring out the old Oligart Howsenhusenfwodemenmeyer.

Call me Ollie for short.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> We're going by new names now? Well. Fine. Time to bring out the old Oligart Howsenhusenfwodemenmeyer.
> 
> Call me Ollie for short.


So I see you're back for good! 
David Adams must be rolling around naked somewhere from happiness!


----------



## vrabinec

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Howsenhusenfwodemenmeyer.


That's the wife's maiden name. Are you from Oklahoma, too?


----------



## Caddy

Caddy would much prefer referring to herself as a character in a book. What day is that allowed?


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Caddy said:


> Caddy would much prefer referring to herself as a character in a book. What day is that allowed?


On Roleplaying Day!


----------



## JeanneM

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> We're going by new names now? Well. Fine. Time to bring out the old Oligart Howsenhusenfwodemenmeyer.
> 
> Call me Ollie for short.


 You have been so missed. So nice to see you.


----------



## JeanneM

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> On Roleplaying Day!


Can I be Uriah Heep? Can I? I want to be evil. I'm sick of being nice.


----------



## Caddy

Isn't everyday roleplayng day


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## Andrew Ashling

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> We're going by new names now? Well. Fine. Time to bring out the old Oligart Howsenhusenfwodemenmeyer.
> 
> Call me Ollie for short.


Oh, great. Yet another Howsenhusenfwodemenmeyer. How original.


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## Caddy

> Can I be Uriah Heep? Can I? I want to be evil. I'm sick of being nice.


Absolutely! Please kneel. (Jeanne kneels.) I now pronounce you Uriah Heep, both in the Writers' Cafe and anywhere else you choose, whenever and for however long as you want.


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## Caddy

Hey, speaking of kicking some ass, Andrew, are you still reading this thread?  If so, can I be Anaxantis? I'd like to have that kind of power, for awhile at least.


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## JeanneM

Thank you, Caddy!  I hereby solemnly swear to perpetrate chaos and evil somewhere in the world, every day!


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## Andrew Ashling

Caddy said:


> Hey, speaking of kicking some *ss, Andrew, are you still reading this thread? If so, can I be Anaxantis? I'd like to have that kind of power, for awhile at least.


Mais bien sûr, Gastien dit.


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## Lisa Grace

How about Heading Hopping Holidays then? 

Fat Free Fridays should be in "Not Quite Kindle."


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## Caddy

Anaxantis shakes his blond hair out of his eyes and slowly looks around the room.  As he suspected, Uriah Heep is sitting at a table near the back, plotting trouble. Ah, well. They have respect for each other, and an unspoken agreement to allow each other wide berth as far as plotting goes.

Seeing Gastien, his eyes light up.  "Gastien! Merci beaucoup for allowing me to...well..to be me!" His laughter fills the room. "I must say, there is nothing quite like swinging a sword while galloping full speed on a horse. Care to join me?"  Seeing Gastien's hesitation, he nods. "Ah, I forgot. You are more of a lover than a fighter. Very well. I will join you for a drink and then be on my way. How I wish Ehandar could join us! I'll be sure to give him your best wishes next time I see him." 

Sitting down, he gives Uriah Heep a stern look. "Hands off this one, Uriah. He is but an artist, a painter of energy. You should have no quarrel with him. Let him paint in peace." Motioning the serving wench over, he continues, "Please bring a round of whatever everyone in the Writers' Cafe would like. It is, of course, on me."

Then his eyes land on Lisa. "Head Hopping Holidays"? Ye Gods, woman, what will you think of next?" He rubs his chin. "I rather like it. Carry on."


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## Joel R. Crabtree

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> We're going by new names now? Well. Fine. Time to bring out the old Oligart Howsenhusenfwodemenmeyer.
> 
> Call me Ollie for short.


If we're using new names for a Fictitious Friday, please mark me down as Stuart Bailey Castellan. Also the chocolate brownie I just had was completely fat free. (Ok, that part is fictitious as well.)


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## Gina Black

From now on, I want you all to call me Loretta.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

April 1st is almost here. Just wait. We'll have Oligart Howsenhusenfwodemenmeyer on one of my covers.


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## JeanneM

Your cover designer will kill you. LOL

Hi Loretta!


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## Gennita Low

This now has the tone of a possessed thread, with head-hopping and persona changes!  .

Gennita grinned. She had always wanted to be Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazon. You shall all bow to the Queen, you Amazonians. Hippolyta took off her girdle and slapped her mighty hand with it.

And then a giant foot appeared from the sky....


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## Andrew Ashling

Gennita Low said:


> This now has the tone of a possessed thread, with head-hopping and persona changes! .
> 
> Gennita grinned. She had always wanted to be Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazon. You shall all bow to the Queen, you Amazonians. Hippolyta took off her girdle and slapped her mighty hand with it.
> 
> And then a giant foot appeared from the sky....


One is tempted to gently remind Hipollyta that she needs to cut off her right breast, as all Amazon warriors do, to better wield her sword.


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## unkownwriter

Sheila pops in to catch up on the Kboards, now that she can actually _see_ the words. Curse you, sinusitis. Curse you!

"Wow, that thread is still going on," she marvels, quietly so as not to hurt her head. "Let's see what conundrums my fellow writers have managed to get themselves into."

She is shocked to find that the boards have apparently undergone a dramatic shift towards the absurd -- not to mention an outbreak of multiple personality disorder -- and also that she is once again late to the party, for it is Friday evening and she missed Third Person Thursday entirely.

Oh, well. As she has nothing fat-free in her house, being the lowcarber believer that she is, Sheila decides to join in the hilarity and post in third person anyway.

Sheila reads with sorrow the posts about lost parents, and is reminded of the words of a great leader, T'pau of Vulcan: I grieve with thee. She gives everyone a virtual hug, all too aware that she is very lucky to still have her folks around.


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## Gennita Low

Andrew Ashling said:


> One is tempted to gently remind Hipollyta that she needs to cut off her right breast, as all Amazon warriors do, to better wield her sword.


Hippolyta looks down to her right breast. "I wonder if sacrificing vrabinec's "howling winds of Sphinct" would be a far potent selection? 'Twould at least result in good ranking."


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## vrabinec

Andrew Ashling said:


> One is tempted to gently remind Hipollyta that she needs to cut off her right breast, as all Amazon warriors do, to better wield her sword.


The hot, howling winds grow cold for fear that the bannished one who shall not be named has returned.


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## harrisonbooth

I haven't been to KB for a few days.  Clicking on this thread makes me feel like I've walked in on a meeting of a weird pagan sub-sect where everyone is required to wear animal masks and communicate exclusively through interpretive dance.


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## Betsy the Quilter

LisaGraceBooks said:


> How about Heading Hopping Holidays then?
> 
> Fat Free Fridays should be in "Not Quite Kindle."


Athena, the goddess of War, has no objection to other designations for Friday, just wanted to point out that Fat Free Fridays was a tradition in the Writers' Café for several months, usually posted by Catie Quinn, and was for the sharing of glad tidings:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,136645.0.html 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,135955.0.html 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,135283.0.html 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,133770.0.html 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,130997.0.html 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,133121.0.html 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,132411.0.html 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,131660.0.html


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## Betsy the Quilter

harrisonbooth said:


> I haven't been to KB for a few days. Clicking on this thread makes me feel like I've walked in on a meeting of a weird pagan sub-sect where everyone is required to wear animal masks and communicate exclusively through interpretive dance.


And your point is?


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## Quiss

Miss Quiss steps into the room to see if people are still shouting about good manners, sees Gennita and vrabinect talking weird and slowly, carefully backs out again.


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## harrisonbooth

Betsy the Quilter said:


> And your point is?


I might get sacrificed in a wicker man.


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## jnfr

harrisonbooth said:


> I might get sacrificed in a wicker man.


That would be cool.


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## Lisa Grace

jnfr said:


> That would be cool.


No, that would be hot, very hot.


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## Andrew Ashling

vrabinec said:


> The hot, howling winds grow cold for fear that the bannished one who shall not be named has returned.


Too soon?


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## cdvsmx5

High school.


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## CraigInOregon

Gina Black said:


> From now on, I want you all to call me Loretta.


Only if you promise to live up to this Loretta's legacy:


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## Susan Alison

Wow - 30 pages. I reckon whatever I was going to say has probably already been said a few times. So I won't say anything much. What I will do is use a face thing - I've never used one in my entire life before and can't imagine that I will again - that's how extraordinary this post is:



Hmph - that seems to be the closest one to 'thanks' on offer - so it has to be that one. Thank you for the kboards. They've been an invaluable resource to me and I'm sure will continue to be so.

_Folks, I've locked this nearly year-old thread; I thought it had been locked long ago. Sorry for any confusion. --Betsy_


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