# Reviews of Dean Wesley Smith Workshops and Lectures



## Guest (Jul 13, 2014)

Dean Wesley Smith (DWS) is much revered and reviled figure in self-publishing. Some say his advice is solid and workable across genres; others say it doesn't work, even for DWS, himself. My goal for this thread is to encourage *EVERYONE* who has taken any workshops or lectures from him or his wife, Kristine Kathryn Rusch (KKR), to post their opinions here. I also encourage anyone willing to share sales data to do so in order to verify their use of and results with DWS's methods.

I'll start by discussing my opinions of two lectures: How to Read Like a Writer and Heinlein's Rules.

*How to Read Like a Writer*

This lecture is a waste of time and money. To sum it up, the point is to read for pleasure, instead of trying to dissect books. KKR could have saved me $50 and put that in a blog post. A very short blog post. She manages to stretch what could have been a vine video into an hour of content with some amusing anecdotes about her interactions with creative writing teachers, but nothing she says really justifies the price.

*Heinlein's Rules*

Let's just skip straight to the third rule and DWS's interpretation of it: he's wrong and his supporting hypothesis is pseudoscientificsuperstitious. To be clear, Heinlein's Rules are essential for any working writer. Look them up if you're unfamiliar. The one that gets the most attention, the third, states: _You must refrain from rewriting, except to editorial order._

There is value in this advice in that it should keep less confident writers from endless revisions, which keep them from publishing. Limiting a writer to one or two practical revisions is what this rule was intended to do. If this thread remains active long enough, I will post direct quotations here when they become available*; for now, take my word for this next part.

DWS regularly invokes Harlan Ellison as an example of a successful writer who followed Heinlein's Rules. Considering this, I went to Ellison's forum, where he personally responds to fans, and asked him about Hienlein's third rule. I explained DWS's interpretation of the rule. A day or two later, another fan responded to me, saying that the interpretation is incorrect (more on this later) and that the rule is simply meant to get writers to write more instead of edit. Ellison later chimed in, telling me that this person's take on the rule was correct. For what it's worth, Ellison and Heinlein were at least acquainted with one another to the degree that Heinlein visited Ellison's home.

What is DWS's superstitious support for his interpretation of the rule, and what is his interpretation? His support for the rule boils down to a ridiculously simplified idea of how the brain works. His words:


> The creative side, the deep part of our brain, has been taking in story, story structure, sentence structure, character voice, and everything else for a very long time, since each of us read our first book or had a book read to us. It's that place where our author voice comes from, where the really unique ideas come from.
> 
> The critical side of the brain is full of all the crap you learned in high school, everything your college teachers said, what your workshop said, and the myths you have bought into like a fish biting on a yummy worm. Your critical voice is also full of the fear that comes out in "I can't show this to friends." Or, "What would my mother think?" That is all critical side thinking that makes you take a great story and dumb it down.


DWS's idea is simply that rewriting/editing/revising automatically makes a story worse. To my knowledge, he has never offered any evidence for this aside from anecdotes (anecdotes are not a valid form of evidence). When I explained this reasoning on Ellison's forum, I was told that the third rule is not intended to make stories better. It has nothing to do with that. The value is in getting the writer to write the next story, so that they have more practice actually writing. One or two revisions of a story will not ruin it.

His interpretation is that "rewriting" is editing a finished draft with the intention of making major changes (altering plot points, characters, whole scenes, etc.). Quite frankly, sometimes this is necessary. His advice when this is necessary is to trash the whole thing and start over from word one. This may not always be necessary. Use your own judgement. For an example of successful writers who "rewrite," take a look at Brandon Sanderson's writing classes on YouTube or Dave Farland/Wolverton's lecture about editing, also on YouTube.

That's my reaction to two lectures from DWS and KKR. Take it as you will. If you've taken any of their workshops or watched any of their lectures, please review them below.

*Harlan Ellison's forum is such that you cannot access the very recent posts prior to the current month or so. There are archives, but there is a gap between the latest archives and the currently visible thread.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I have to agree with your interpretation of Heinlein's rule three. I took this lecture and it did give me back a lot of the confidence I'd lost after revising a couple of my novels numerous times. I think that sometimes stories do need a lot of revision and I can't imagine starting the thing over from word one. But, when I switch my thinking to not expecting to revise/rewrite my story, I end up looking at my first draft differently. And honestly, some of the stories I haven't revised heavily have been my best sellers.

Thinking differently about the first draft forces me to make less mistakes in the first place. It focuses my efforts. I personally HATE revision. It's my least favorite part of the process, while I love writing first drafts. I don't mind line editing, but revision of the entire story structure is so painful. When you tell yourself that you are going to create a good draft first, then you think differently while writing. This might not work for people who can't get first drafts out at all. DWS also advocates telling yourself it's okay to write crap, so that pretty much contradicts everything I just said.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> I have to agree with your interpretation of Heinlein's rule three. I took this lecture and it did give me back a lot of the confidence I'd lost after revising a couple of my novels numerous times. I think that sometimes stories do need a lot of revision and I can't imagine starting the thing over from word one. But, when I switch my thinking to not expecting to revise/rewrite my story, I end up looking at my first draft differently. And honestly, some of the stories I haven't revised heavily have been my best sellers.
> 
> Thinking differently about the first draft forces me to make less mistakes in the first place. It focuses my efforts. I personally HATE revision. It's my least favorite part of the process, while I love writing first drafts. I don't mind line editing, but revision of the entire story structure is so painful. When you tell yourself that you are going to create a good draft first, then you think differently while writing. This might not work for people who can't get first drafts out at all. DWS also advocates telling yourself it's okay to write crap, so that pretty much contradicts everything I just said.


What you're saying parrots the advice of a very successful literary agent, Scott Meredith, who started his own agency and wrote a book called Writing to Sell. In the chapter on revisions, he says that assuming one will be revising creates a lazy attitude in which writers let themselves make mistakes in the first draft, thinking that they'll fix it later. Meredith says that this practice makes writers worse over the long haul, whereas writing with the mind to make your first draft the best it can be serves one of the functions of the third rule: become a better writer through practice with writing, not editing.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

genrehopper said:


> What you're saying parrots the advice of a very successful literary agent, Scott Meredith, who started his own agency and wrote a book called Writing to Sell. In the chapter on revisions, he says that assuming one will be revising creates a lazy attitude in which writers let themselves make mistakes in the first draft, thinking that they'll fix it later. Meredith says that this practice makes writers worse over the long haul, whereas writing with the mind to make your first draft the best it can be serves one of the functions of the third rule: become a better writer through practice with writing, not editing.


I'll have to check that out because I totally agree. I'd rather spend an extra week on a first draft than three or four weeks fixing all my mistakes later.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Plotting helps a lot. Pantsing is fine for shorter works, but I suck at it with full-length novels in contemporary romance.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Well I must admit I haven't taken his courses.

But, I followed his Killing the Sacred Cows #3 when I wrote and sold my best-selling non-self published book.

I wrote it quickly, I ignored the flaws I thought were there, and, after fixing the typos and such, subbed it to my publisher (Dreamspinner Press). They snatched it up. I fixed the things they asked me to fix, including adding a couple more scenes.

It was published and sold a lot (for me, and in my genre--gay romance), making the niche bestseller list and staying there for weeks IIRC.

I still don't think it's very good. I didn't know how to fix that, so I sent it, using Dean's methods, and this happened.

That made me believe he was right that an author doesn't always know what is or isn't very good.

This was of course one of his free blog posts. http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/killing-the-top-ten-sacred-covers-of-publishing-3-rewriting/

I don't know that this would always work, for me or for anyone else. BUT...his posts helped me have the courage to TRY this way of writing, and it was scary and felt like jumping off a cliff when I sent out work that I thought probably needed completely rewritten. It sold. It sold well enough to get an audio release from my publisher.

So what do I know? Maybe it's good. Or maybe people just were in the mood for a story like that. Or I hit my niche, or whatever.

(FWIW, most of my stories I'm self-publishing lately, but I still do submit some of them to a publisher.)

I'm not sure if this is the purpose of the thread, but hopefully it's not too out of place. I can, of course, only share my experience. But I know Dean's posts have helped me get motivated and be brave to try a few new things.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2014)

HSh said:


> I'm not sure if this is the purpose of the thread, but hopefully it's not too out of place. I can, of course, only share my experience. But I know Dean's posts have helped me get motivated and be brave to try a few new things.


This is exactly what this thread is for. I'm sure many people have gotten value from DWS's free content. I know I have.

Your experience, succeeding with limited revision, seems pretty common. I think keeping revisions to a minimum is great advice. I just think that DWS's reasoning is faulty.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

This thread does, very much, overlap the most recent DWS thread which is ongoing. And we'd normally discourage two such similar threads -- likely merging them.

BUT . . . if this thread stays as _strictly_ personal experience reviews of his workshops and lectures, that's fine. The other thread can be used for general discussion of the efficacy of his methods in general.

I've deleted some posts from this thread that seem to go in that direction.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Mcoorlim said:


> This is exactly why I'm a plotter, not a pantser.


Plotting vs. pantsing is a personal choice.

I do better as a pantser.

Everyone's mileage will vary.


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

I completely recommend Openings, Cliffhangers, and Character  Voice workshops on craft.

From Idea to Story -- only if you're having trouble getting ideas. I thought it would be more about taking a story idea and developing it into plot and characters, which I believe is probably the biggest hurdle to writers. I should have known this didn't jive with Dean's writing process of starting with a story seed and just writing what comes to his mind.

Genre -- I found it helpful to know what readers expect out of various genres. I'm sure many people don't need it.

The Interior Design workshop is great for everyone also publishing to Createspace. I agree it's not as important as Kindle, but paper isn't going away completely. I do make POD sales.

The Cover Design workshop is good for teaching the basics of covers, what readers expect, etc. It will NOT teach you to be a great graphic designer. It will help you work with one. Plus, it shows how to look for stock photos etc. It is assumed you'll be designing your own covers, but I don't believe that's a good idea unless you know a lot more than this workshop teaches. Still, knowing what goes into a good cover, is important when you hire your designer.

I'm thinking of taking the new Depth workshop, and hope someone will post a review of that one.


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

I almost forgot the Blurbs workshop. That teaches a great way of writing your descriptions.

Some of it does involve querying, which will seem irrelevant to most here, but it won't hurt you.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

*Heinlein's Rules*

15 videos, total lecture length approx 145 minutes

For reference, the rules, according to Heinlein in 1947. They're all still applicable, though I feel that #4 and 5 need to be slightly updated for hybrids/self-pubbers.

HEINLEIN'S RULES FOR WRITING 
----------------------------
1. You must write. 
2. You must finish what you write. 
3. You must refrain from rewriting, except to editorial order. 
4. You must put the work on the market. (If you're indie, get it up for sale.)
5. You must keep the work on the market until it is sold. (N/A for indies, really. If it's up on the market per #4, you're done--go back to step 1. If you're hybrid and sending stories to markets, send it to another market as soon as you get a rejection letter).

_Review of DWS's lecture_

Starts off with an intro to Heinlein's rules. Dean also disusses his experiences as an early stage writer, which is helpful because it helps set the stage. Depending on where you are in your writing, you might identify with some of his comments about being an early career writer. He also discusses how important it is for writers to constantly practice writing (i.e., write more), which ties right into the purpose of Heinlein's rules. Further, he talks about how important it is to find the 'fun' in writing again, esp with the doors-wide-open nature of self-publishing.

A little info on how the rules helped him develop various techniques (worth listening to how another writer works). And a note about how the rules have nothing to do with writing speed--it doesn't matter how fast or how slow you type; just write and follow the other rules. Also a brief discussion on being a lazy writer, discipline, butt-in-chair, etc.

Dean then goes into detail on each of the five rules, each rule getting 2 or 3 videos each. Lots of details and insights, more than I can really cover here without duplicating the content of the lecture itself.

Is it worth the $75? For me, absolutely. The insights and nuggets of details sprinkled throughout the entire lecture serve to remind me of one detail or another, or act as encouragement to get off my butt and write, and to silence the critical voice that sometimes creeps in while I'm drafting. I've paid similar amounts to go to a convention or a writing conference to listen to writers once, and the value here is that you can watch this lecture as many times as you want once you've paid for it. If you need a refresher or a reminder or a little reinforcement on one rule or another, it's easy to pull up the lecture and review the specific video.

As with all of Dean's lectures, he's irreverent and often blunt. Folks who want to be hand-held through an issue with fluffy bunnies and sunshine might not like Dean's style or demeanor. He is very much focused on writers getting better at their craft and getting off their butts and writing.


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## Gerald Hartenhoff (Jun 19, 2010)

Nice review JimJohnson. I got the lecture and it was well worth it for me to.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

genrehopper said:


> What you're saying parrots the advice of a very successful literary agent, Scott Meredith, who started his own agency and wrote a book called Writing to Sell. In the chapter on revisions, he says that assuming one will be revising creates a lazy attitude in which writers let themselves make mistakes in the first draft, thinking that they'll fix it later. Meredith says that this practice makes writers worse over the long haul, whereas writing with the mind to make your first draft the best it can be serves one of the functions of the third rule: become a better writer through practice with writing, not editing.


Well put. I'm no fan of Scott Meredith but this I strongly agree with.



Mcoorlim said:


> This is exactly why I'm a plotter, not a pantser.


You are making an invalid assumption that pansters cannot also be careful writers. My care goes into the writing not into outlines though.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Seem to recall Lawrence Block says something very similar as well.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

*How to Read Like a Writer*

8 videos, total lecture length approx 49 minutes

Kris Rusch handles this particular lecture, the point of which is to help explain how to read a novel or a short story with the intention of picking up a new tool or two to add to your writing toolbox. Not really for reading critically, but to get at noting techniques and tricks that other writers use so that if you ever have the need for a specific tool, you'll have it on hand. One of her points is that deconstructing a story doesn't make you a better writer, it makes you a critic. I'm not going to argue yea or nay on that, just presenting it.

Discusses that story is more important than specific words, themes, metaphors, etc. Learn to tell a good story first. That's what readers want more often than specific words and the like. So when you read something, read with the critical voice turned off. Just experience the story as the writer wrote it.

Encourages you to try and forget about what you learned in English courses and peer workshops and all the nitty-gritty editorial and critical discussions you've had that drill down to the nuts and bolts of 'proper' writing. Her stance is that your creative subconscious is far more trained and talented than your critical voice, partly because we absorb stories at a much younger age than we learn how to look at something critically. She encourages you to trust your natural voice, and that actually ties into a Heinlein rule about not rewriting--you stand a good chance of editing your own voice right out of your stories by focusing on the nitty-gritty and losing sight of the story you're trying to tell.

Anyway, so a lot of tidbits and nuggets of advice sprinkled throughout the lecture. Kris has a natural teaching style and it's clear she's spent a lot of time doing radio and vocal discussions. She comes across as a natural and honest speaker.

Is the lecture worth the $50? Hard to say. If you're able to read a book for pleasure and not find yourself getting knocked out of the story because you're analyzing one technique or another, then you might not need it. If your critical voice is so strong that it's hard for you to read for pleasure, it might be worth checking this out for some insights. For $50, I feel like it's a good deal to spend about an hour listening to a long-time writing pro with a pile of awards and experience and (especially important) great stories under her fingers. I don't know how to put a price on that.

That being said, I picked up this lecture last year when it was first available and I've rewatched it only a couple times. Not a huge amount of re-viewing value for me, but a reminder from time to time doesn't hurt. I appreciate having reviewed the whole thing to put this review together, anyway.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Thought I'd bump this old thread to mention that I noticed Dean is starting to post one of his workshops, on Originality in Writing, to YouTube. It'll be a good introduction to what his workshops are like if you're interested in learning more about the craft. I've taken a lot of his lectures and workshops, and think the craft ones especially have helped me a ton. So check out the Originality videos and see what you think.

Here's the first one:






And here's Dean's channel where a bunch more are up there: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBbq7XUUmCCU-lKTBeN793g


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

I look at Heinlein Rule #3 this way: Why put the effort into revising your work only to have to have your editor make you revise it a second time? Just skip straight to the editor part. You've sold the story to the editor, so make him happy. Putting work into something that you've sold is better money than putting work into something you haven't sold yet. 


When working for yourself, generate as much material you can in order to sell it. (You can't sell an unfinished story, so finish it.) Once sold, make requested changes.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Megan B said:


> I've taken some of his online lectures and really enjoyed them, but never a workshop. I love that he's put one up on YouTube; I was worried that the workshops would have too much homework but so far it doesn't seem like it and I'm doing the assignments on my own (and perhaps getting over some of my issues. I know everyone gets stuck on Heinlein's #3 but #1 is my doozy. Could writing actually be fun and not torture?! )
> 
> I'll have to look into some of the other workshops now and I'm glad I was able to try this Originality one for free.


I'd recommend the Depth in Writing workshop first. It helped me a ton. Advanced depth was super useful too.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm really enjoying the Originality workshop. I'm really glad he's doing this; I've been wanting to take some of his workshops, but they're a little spendy on my current budget (I'm saving all my pennies for cover art for some new books). Maybe I know what I'll ask for for my birthday and Christmas this year.   I don't agree with everything DWS says, and the way he writes makes my brain hurt to even think about it. To me, it's like suggesting I run a marathon - bad enough; I know some people love it, but I can't imagine anything less fun - and not only that, but to run it on my hands instead of my feet. But the things he says always make me think, and it's always good to re-examine assumptions and try different things. He does emphasize more in the videos than he seems to in his blog posts that different things work for different people and there is no one right way to do things. He's really helped me free myself from worrying about rules and perfectionism. I took Holly Lisle's How To Revise Your Novel class a few years ago, and that really freed me, too. It moves the focus from rules and perfectionism to identifying what works and doesn't work for the writer you are and the story you want to tell.

My take on Heinlein's rules: 1, 2, 4, and 5 are all good, common-sense advice. Write, finish what you write, (Indie version) put it up for sale, (Indie version) keep it up for sale. #3, since I do not and never will sell to editors, I turn around: Don't rewrite/revise to anyone else's rules or ideas of what your story should be. Comments from beta readers and editors, ok, but my creative voice and vision always get the final say. I also have a strict order and number of revision/editing passes I do, each one with a specific purpose, and when they're done, the story's done and out the door it goes. So I guess in that sense I go along with the rule, don't rewrite the story to death. I did that to one of my novels, and it was awful. When I realized what I'd done, I had to go back and rewrite it AGAIN from creative voice, and it turned out much, much better.

Talking about rewriting/revising also gets into how each individual's brain works. You can't make blanket rules for that, because everyone will have a different process that works for them, and sometimes different stories even require different processes.


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## ET (Oct 23, 2014)

I recently took Dean Wesley Smith's "Writing into the Dark".

I found the course extremely useful. To echo what Jim Johnson said (sort of), DWS courses are best described as "collections of valuable nuggets" rather than systematic, step-by-step instruction. He assumes a certainly level of experience and expertise. 

DWS really forces you to take a deep (and fresh) look at craft. You can tell that he has spent a lifetime distilling these issues. I gave him a try after hearing Joanna Penn praise him, and I'm glad I did. DWS has become one of my new heroes; and it isn't my habit to dish out extravagant praise lightly.

I would recommend checking out his YouTube channel first, as he has posted the first video in most lectures there. 

All of the lectures seem to be about an hour long (the total of all videos).


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## dgrant (Feb 5, 2014)

The "Writing Fiction Sales Copy" information was 75% stuff I'd learned the hard way through years of marketing in other businesses, and 25% "Oh! That's an awesome way to put it, and really helps!" The exercises that coupled with it were excellent at getting me to put everything into practice all at once, in rapid succession, instead of only once per book. 

Definitely worth it. 

As for the books: 

DWS's "writing into the dark" book was helpful for defining a sort of edit-as-you-go process for pantsers - so while he doesn't sit down and do revision passes after finishing, he's actually cleaning up copy each day to arrive at a solid final form. While it may not be as useful for plotters, it's not aimed at them any more than Rachel Aaron's 2K to 10K is aimed at pantsers. 

Kris's Freelancer's Survival Guide, while full of really basic "If you've ever owned a small business, this is as critical as breathing" information, is really useful to as a starting set of building blocks for people who've never owned a small businesss, freelanced, or had to deal with self-employment from scheduling to taxes, when to take sick days, or dealing with other freelancers as the publisher.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

I took the Genre Class back in 2013. 2013 was also the year I had my breakthrough book. Yes, there is a correlation.  Totally worth it.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

His endings workshop helped me a good deal, as did his originality one. I've been meaning to do others but I haven't decided which yet. So, yes, I find his workshops to be good learning tools and a valuable use of my time.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I just started the Point of View workshop and the first week was good basic information, and the outline for the next five weeks sounds great. I'm also auditing the Depth and Advanced Depth workshop because I reviewed my notes from the first time I took them and realized I had missed a couple weeks' worth of notes. Looking forward to the refresher.


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

Jim Johnson said:


> I just started the Point of View workshop and the first week was good basic information, and the outline for the next five weeks sounds great. I'm also auditing the Depth and Advanced Depth workshop because I reviewed my notes from the first time I took them and realized I had missed a couple weeks' worth of notes. Looking forward to the refresher.


Sorry to revive this older thread, but I was wondering if you took the online "workshop" or if you were just watching the videos via the "classic" format which doesn't have interaction?


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## Vale (Jul 19, 2017)

I asked around here to see what people thought because I've been eyeing the "Depth in Writing" and "Fantasy Writing" workshops, though they're a good chunk of change. The person I asked had done one of the cover workshops and said that it was worth the $300 because she finished the workshop with covers for her series (an InDesign file). She said she felt frustrated that important information was held back until after the exercises and that he would often complain about people in the class to in the videos. The basic idea of the class was that you can make a cover by going to a stock photo site and that you shouldn't pay for cover art (except in specific circumstances). For all the mixed bag, she was really happy with her covers and I was impressed when I saw them. So even if she was unsure about his teaching style of berating his pupils, $300 got her covers for her very first series.

My takeaway was that I should wait until I could ask people who had done the Depth and Fantasy Writing workshops and see how they felt about them. Has anyone taken those two?


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

bonbon foofoo said:


> DWS also advocates telling yourself it's okay to write crap, so that pretty much contradicts everything I just said.


This is incorrect. I've been reading his blog for years and he actually recommends the opposite. He often remarks that writers who are writing with the idea of fixing it later are missing the point of writing a clean first draft. Please do your research before you put words into a fellow author's mouth who is not here to defend himself.

Regarding his workshops, I've taken Heinlin's Rules, Originality, and Endings. The Endings workshop helped me a great deal. It was worth the money for me.

@Kalypso and another commenter upthread re: plotting vs pantsing--please don't go into that here. Everyone writes differently and as a pantser, I don't spend weeks fixing mistakes on my work. Just because you cannot conzeptualize it working for you doesn't mean it can't or doesn't work for others.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

What is the "other DWS thread" the mod spoke of? I only haunt the Writer's Cafe and I don't remember seeing it there.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

I took the Depth class and found it worthwhile.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Guy Riessen said:


> Sorry to revive this older thread, but I was wondering if you took the online "workshop" or if you were just watching the videos via the "classic" format which doesn't have interaction?


I took the workshop before it became classic. But, it's still great information even without the exercises and feedback.


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## Vale (Jul 19, 2017)

Cassie Leigh said:


> I took the Depth class and found it worthwhile.


What's it like? Part of my hesitation is not being sure exactly what it covers.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

It's about writing from the perspective of the character in everything, including description, and realizing that each character sees their world differently. Also about including the senses in your writing and avoiding what he describes as fake details (she walked to the barn -- what does that barn look like? very different in different parts of the world). He also covers things like saidisms and editing while in creative voice. It's good if you want to write in deep third-person POV or first person POV.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> BTW, if anyone's thinking of taking any of Dean's workshops, he has a deal right now where, if you pledge $250 to his Kickstarter, you get a workshop and a classic workshop for it (which would normally cost $450 in total):
> 
> https://www.deanwesleysmith.com/classic-workshop-kickstarter-offer/


That's a great deal. Esp if you hold onto the credit for the classic workshop and take Depth as soon as he converts it to a classic workshop. Well worth the time and money at full price; getting it for cheap is even better.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I attended the Kris & Dean Show way back in the late 90s. The most valuable thing I took out of that was that I needed to be writing more. I wouldn't be where I am now if I hadn't had that kick in the pants. At that time they were speaking with a lot of energy, which was highly motivating.

Having said that, I find a lot of their specific indie advice way off the mark for the current publishing environment.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

MonkeyScribe said:


> I attended the Kris & Dean Show way back in the late 90s. The most valuable thing I took out of that was that I needed to be writing more. I wouldn't be where I am now if I hadn't had that kick in the pants. At that time they were speaking with a lot of energy, which was highly motivating.
> 
> Having said that, I find a lot of their specific indie advice way off the mark for the current publishing environment.


I tend not to agree with them as much on the business side of things so didn't find tremendous value in the business-oriented classes I took from them. Same with the lectures about what level writer you are. But the craft ones I found useful for the most part. (Ironically, I have a friend who thinks the exact opposite and doesn't like their craft advice but does like their business advice.) As with most writing and publishing advice, I take the gems that work for me and ignore the rest.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

MonkeyScribe said:


> I attended the Kris & Dean Show way back in the late 90s. The most valuable thing I took out of that was that I needed to be writing more. I wouldn't be where I am now if I hadn't had that kick in the pants. At that time they were speaking with a lot of energy, which was highly motivating.
> 
> Having said that, I find a lot of their specific indie advice way off the mark for the current publishing environment.


Same. Their craft advice has been encouraging and motivating to me for the most part. However, their pricing and other business advice I disagree with. I haven't found it's worked for my books. Like free. I think free works. They don't believe in free.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

I took the Writing Into the Dark video training on Teachable for $50. I was curious to see the other side of the "you must outline/plot" mantra.  It was no frills production just DWS sitting in his office talking to the camera but I found some good insight and tidbits and I was satisfied with money spent.


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## ET (Oct 23, 2014)

I thought I would revive this thread to note that DWS is now offering a lifetime subscription to all his workshops, and another package for his lectures.

https://www.deanwesleysmith.com/lifetime-subscriptions-to-workshops-and-lectures/

The prices are on the high side: $3,000 for the workshops, $1,000 for the lectures. So a total of $4,000 for lifetime access to all material, past, present, and future.

I wondered if anyone has taken the plunge?

I've taken a handful of DWS's workshops and lectures. I've generally been pleased with the material. But obviously, this represents a sizable investment, which few people will make lightly.

And no...before anyone asks, DWS does not have me on a commission plan !


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I've probably already paid that much over the last 10 years or so for many of the workshops and lectures. It's probably a good deal, but I don't know how many people are going to want to drop that much money all at once for content that will probably take a year+ to work through. Each workshop is 6-10 hours of content, probably more, and 30+ workshops means a TON of content to sift through. Then there are like 30+ lectures, each at least an hour long, so you're talking about a major time investment as well as monetary.

Most I've found worthwhile, but you have to get used to Dean's style of delivery and attitude. He may rub some people the wrong way. I'd suggest checking out some of the videos on YouTube and then try a lecture or two, and see if it's something you want to do. I might buy into the lifetime thing just because I've invested so much already, and there are a number of workshops I wanted to get to eventually.

I've found that there are great nuggets of information in each workshop and lecture, but the trick is digging in and listening for them.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I've taken a few of his workshops, Depth in Writing, Advanced Depth, and Suspense. The depth in writing ones were probably the best and most useful writing classes I've taken, and I've taken a number over the years. I enjoyed the suspense one as well.


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## ET (Oct 23, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> I've probably already paid that much over the last 10 years or so for many of the workshops and lectures. It's probably a good deal, but I don't know how many people are going to want to drop that much money all at once for content that will probably take a year+ to work through. Each workshop is 6-10 hours of content, probably more, and 30+ workshops means a TON of content to sift through. Then there are like 30+ lectures, each at least an hour long, so you're talking about a major time investment as well as monetary.
> 
> Most I've found worthwhile, but you have to get used to Dean's style of delivery and attitude. He may rub some people the wrong way. I'd suggest checking out some of the videos on YouTube and then try a lecture or two, and see if it's something you want to do. I might buy into the lifetime thing just because I've invested so much already, and there are a number of workshops I wanted to get to eventually.
> 
> I've found that there are great nuggets of information in each workshop and lecture, but the trick is digging in and listening for them.


I'm with you, Jim: I listen to a lot of people regarding marketing, but DWS is pretty much the only person who still covers new ground for me on the craft side.

Thus far, I've only paid for 5 lectures and 3 classic workshops. So I'm actively considering it. That's a lot of money to spend, but if you can think of it as a 2~3 year investment, it may not be so bad.

As I said, I need to give it some thought...


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

ET said:


> I'm with you, Jim: I listen to a lot of people regarding marketing, but DWS is pretty much the only person who still covers new ground for me on the craft side.


Yeah, his craft teachings are really great. Depth, Advanced Depth, and Character Voice and Setting I keep going back to for refreshers.


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