# A Small Publisher's Lament



## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

Full article here for those who want to read it.

The article was too long to post here, and it really isn't just a Kindleboards article anyway but more a general state of affairs. But to give the proverbial Cliff Notes version, as a publisher, I don't feel welcomed on book forums anymore.

I routinely get lumped in with the evil Big Six, have to listen to people who have no clue what I actually do tell me how unneccessary I am, and get shouted down whenever I say something that doesn't jive with the Ten Commandments as stated by Konrath or whomever is the flavor of the day among indies. It isn't just here. It happens in online book groups I belong to. It happens in Facebook groups I below to. It happens on other writing forums I use to frequent.

I don't feel welcome participating in group projects, because those projects are always labeled as indie author or self-publishing projects. Folks launch new sites daily to "support indies" but all they are really supporting are self-publishers selling books for 99 cents (or free). Those of us that are trying to make a profit on a sale (because, you know, $5 is SO overpriced for an ebook) are just pushed aside.

I watch as editors get raked across the coals for suggesting people need an editor or commenting on grammar, accused of trying to drum up business. I routinely have people dismiss my suggestions or comments with "Well, I just want to be read" or "money isn't everything" as if I was some millionaire looking down my nose at the "true artists" or whatever. I've lost count of the number of times I've been called unsupportive because I had the will to point out what most people were thinking.

In the end, this is a feel-sorry-for-***** thread, but just a reminder that there is a publishing world outside New York City. Not all of us are greedy corporate bastards looking to take advantage of writers. There are a lot of small publishers that would love to be a part of the larger writing community, but feel attacked whenever they try to join a conversation. Not all of them have a Sith's determination to keep hammering at it even when it has been made clear their contributions aren't welcomed. And it is unfortunate, because indies and small presses should be working together more to produce a vibrant writing community and not just staking out territory.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

As a *happy* small-press author, I have often felt unwelcome here and in other "indie" places.

I will say that my time interning with Bards and Sages, very early on in my career, were crucial to giving me a well-rounded POV to publishing, an insiders look at the business, and how decisions are made. I learned so much from you and Bards & Sages. Plus, I love your products. Several of your gaming guides should be repackage as writer's help documents because they are really that good (build-your-own-gods comes to mind).

My only regret in interning with you is that I can't submit short fiction to B&S anymore.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm completely ignorant about the benefits of going with a small press vs going it alone. I'd love to read a Small Press 101 Guide. I'm sure there are lots of authors like me who "don't get it".


----------



## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

But.... we LOVE you...    Not just that, but you have a brilliant knack for playing devil's advocate.  It takes ALL of the ingredients to make a cake!


----------



## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm both indie and a small press author, so I hear you. I have a lot of respect for small presses and the things they do. Obviously, you always get the friction you will get between any author and publisher from time to time (especially around editing time) but I think small presses serve an important role in the market. 

If I have any gripe with small presses, it's that they tend to overprice the paperback version of the book to the point it really has no chance of selling.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Monique said:


> I'm completely ignorant about the benefits of going with a small press vs going it alone. I'd love to read a Small Press 101 Guide. I'm sure there are lots of authors like me who "don't get it".


I typically give my perspective as a Canadian in the SFF field, where small presses are really helpful for your career (since we're heavily into conventions, print sales, etc). For an American, I can offer nothing (since I don't know anything).


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I totally sympathize with you, Julie, and I'm sorry you have to hear things that feel directed at what you do and take pride in.

I had a wonderful experience publishing my first book with a small press. I learned a lot during the process, and I still consider my editor there (one of the owners as well) a dear friend.

When I categorize them in my mind, they are lumped in on the "indie" side of things rather than with the major publishers. Which is meant as a compliment. I really hope the future lies more with small publishers than the dinosaurs who still think you need expensive NYC digs to put a decent book together.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Hi Julie,
I read ALL your posts as you are the voice of experience and reason, so please don't think that you are not appreciated.

I know where you are coming from as regards being accused of trying to drum up business. When I was doing manuscript assessments for an agent there where many times when I suggested that the author would benefit from taking a writing course, so much so that we eventually offered our own writing course - but guess what; writers then became suspicious that the recommendations were made solely to entice them to take the writing course.


----------



## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

I can 100% empathize.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Obviously, you shouldn't be attacked or your opinions dismissed because you run a small press.

However, I have mixed feelings on the topic of small presses. I had several novels published by a couple of them. I was unimpressed. It's probably not something I would do again. That could mean that the small presses I worked with weren't very good, though. Or it could mean that I just prefer the control that being an independent author gives me.

My experience doesn't mean that no small presses are worth working with. No doubt there are advantages. Certainly a lot of us can't afford to hire an editor, etc. A small press can get novels on listed with some vendors that won't accept indie novels, but for me, I felt that I gave up more than I received. 

There are no doubt very different experiences out there and other reasons to go that publishing route.


----------



## Eliza Baum (Jul 16, 2011)

Monique said:


> I'm completely ignorant about the benefits of going with a small press vs going it alone. I'd love to read a Small Press 101 Guide.


Ditto.

I'm still in read and learn mode. I'm leaning toward self-publishing and doing it all myself, because I like the control it offers. However, I'm not dead-set against any other options. I wouldn't mind being able to read and learn about small presses.


----------



## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> My only regret in interning with you is that I can't submit short fiction to B&S anymore.


Who told you that nonsense?  It certainly didn't come from me. Was it the kobolds? I knew they were up to something...


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Who told you that nonsense?


Oh...I just assumed...


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm being asked this off list. If people are interested in why I stick with small niche presses, I can talk about it. I just want folks to understand that a) my career decisions are not up for debate and b) my career decisions are based on me being Canadian and a con lover.

_My path works for me because it makes me incredibly happy._


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Krista and Julie. I think you are both looking at it from the wrong end of the stick. I am sure you both know, it's not what you have to say, but sometimes the way you say it that may provoke responses. I know both of you have provoked a response from me in the past. However since I have got to know you both, I can just roll my eyes now.

Just looking down Julies list, I am with you all the way, on Konrath, making a profit, etc etc. All I can say is continue on message. What you both have to say when you strip out some of the barbs, is really worth listening to.

Don't ask me to cite instances, I quickly forget spats.


----------



## James Everington (Dec 25, 2010)

Although I'm self-published at the moment, I can see the small-presses becoming increasingly important. I'm not a self-publishing hater myself, obviously, but we should all be honest that as well as all the great stuff a load of rubbish is being self-published. I'm increasingly seeing comments over here in the UK where people have bought a bad, poorly formatted, poorly proof-read self-published book and are vowing never to be 'stung' again. And who can blame them?

I'll always sing the praises of the good self-published books I find (and I don't for a second regret doing it myself), but I think they'll always be a sizeable chunk of people who won't read self-published books, full stop. However they may well pick up small press books from reputable publishers.


----------



## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Monique said:


> I'm completely ignorant about the benefits of going with a small press vs going it alone. I'd love to read a Small Press 101 Guide. I'm sure there are lots of authors like me who "don't get it".


I edit and do acquisitions (read: slush pile minion) for a small press, so I can point out a few benefits from that perspective.

One benefit to going with a small press over indie is that there is a selection/rejection process. Despite being small, at the press I work for, we get a ton of submissions during each submission period, and we only choose a couple of subs each time. Having a third party who is willing to put their money where your mouth is gives your book credibility right off the top that it wouldn't have if it was self-published.

Another benefit is that, if you're with a decent small press, you'll get editing free of charge, from an editor who didn't just decide yesterday to hang out an editing shingle. And working with an editor is valuable for more than just the manuscript that editor works on - if a writer is willing to work with an editor they can learn a lot that they can apply to future manuscripts.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Julie, I don't know if you'll listen to a word I say, but I've mentioned this several times now.

I think you're trying to do too much. You're overextending yourself, and you've been taking things very personally for several months. Like, remember when the indie journal thing didn't work out, and I replied that I didn't even know it existed. You blamed all the bad indies for not meeting their deadlines, and you closed the press and that was that, on the second issue. You said you didn't have time to deal with indie authors not meeting their deadlines when you have 10+ things going on at once. You said with non-self published authors you didn't have to email reminders and all that, but indies were irresponsible, and they should have understood that you have lots of things going on. Now, you're starting up yet another initiative that you're wanting other people to oversee (this virtual community thing), and I'm very worried for you.

You're a magnificent person with a big heart. You may try to come off as the Queen of Mean, but I know better. You want to do everything for everyone all the time, and no one can do everything. You're a big softie, whether you want to believe it or not. You let things get to you, and you're not feeling like you're in a good spot because the market is so crazy and people don't seem to be appreciating you. There are a lot of people that appreciate your personality and tenacity on these forums. I'm one of them--again, whether you believe it or not.

I have no idea if anything is going to get easier for small presses anytime soon. I am not sure there's sun on the horizon in a business sense, but I appreciate your posts on these forums. That's all I can really say.


----------



## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

Decon said:


> Krista and *****. I think you are both looking at it for the wrong end of the stick. I am sure you both know, it's not what you have to say, but sometimes the way you say it that may provoke responses. I know both of you have provoked a response from me in the past. However since I have got to know you both, I can just roll my eyes now.


This isn't really about me personally, however. I KNOW I am blunt. I expect a certain group to respond in a certain way to my posts. This is a more in general how small publishers are treated. I have friends who run small presses who stay away from sites like KB with a 20 ft pole because certain elements of the rabid pro-indie crowd make them uncomfortable. It isn't even about things that are said in response to posts. It is often general statements made about how useless publishers are as a whole. Threads I haven't even posted to. And it isn't just here. It's blog posts by so-called experts who claim publishers are useless and are all dinosaurs. Some of the groups I am in, someone will ask a question about submitting to publishers and six people will chime in with the "Keep your money and self publish" rant, accusing all publishers of effectively stealing from writers.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Good gad, you self-centered small-press publishers. You get two farthings to rub together and think the world revolves around you, eh? You can't just think only of yourself and threaten to leave us like this, Julie! We apprentices aren't ready to carry your burden of the sarcasm around here yet! You'd realize this, if you weren't so busy taking every offhand comment personally.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This isn't really about me personally, however. I KNOW I am blunt. I expect a certain group to respond in a certain way to my posts. This is a more in general how small publishers are treated. I have friends who run small presses who stay away from sites like KB with a 20 ft pole because certain elements of the rabid pro-indie crowd make them uncomfortable. It isn't even about things that are said in response to posts. It is often general statements made about how useless publishers are as a whole. Threads I haven't even posted to. And it isn't just here. It's blog posts by so-called experts who claim publishers are useless and are all dinosaurs. Some of the groups I am in, someone will ask a question about submitting to publishers and six people will chime in with the "Keep your money and self publish" rant, accusing all publishers of effectively stealing from writers.


Then they probably should stay away because there are people who have that opinion, and they are free to express that opinion. However, much you may hate Konrath, he backs up his opinions with some pretty strong experience. I think he's wrong that publishers will go the way of the dinosaurs, but we all have to realize that people are going to have very different opinions about what is going to happen in an evolving industry.

I often restrain myself from commenting on threads like this, especially when the "publishing through a small publisher will give you credibility" or "publishing through a publisher will let you do nothing but write" comments show up. I think they're *coughs and moderates language*... whatever.

If people can't deal with strongly stated opinions that aren't the same as their own, the internet ain't the place for them.


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> b) my career decisions are based on me being Canadian and a con lover.


That's a biggie for me as well. It's hard to participate on panels as a 100% indie. Even a small press would be an advantage for having someone call on your behalf to try and get you into cons as a participant.

I'm hoping this changes, but I totally feel you on this one.


----------



## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

Rex Jameson said:


> I think you're trying to do too much. You're overextending yourself, and you've been taking things very personally for several months.


It is personal for me when I come across stuff like this (Not posted on KB, BTW, and no I won't link to the sites to avoid bringing the flame wars here)



> I don't know why anybody with a brain would bother trying to get a publisher anymore. It isn't like any of them know what they are doing and you can hire people to do everything yourself and keep the profits.





> Most of these editors and so-called publishers are just frustrated writers that couldn't cut it themselves in the big leagues so they start their own little publishing companies to take out their frustrations on writers.





> I wouldn't ever trust a publisher anyway cause you have no way of knowing if they are reporting all the sales and then they just hold onto your money and they could be cheating you and you wouldn't know it.


Directed at a friend of mine who dared to post to a conversation about editing


> Oh yeah, how many of your books are in the top 100 on Amazon? Maybe if you didn't price them so high people would read them but probably not because I just sampled one of your books and I didn't think it was very good so much for your professional editing huh?


Yeah, I take it personally. We worry a lot about "scaring away" newbies. But nobody really worries about "scaring away" paying markets or publishers that actually love writers.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

So, honestly, what can we do to make you feel more welcome? I mean, I can't get on a popular science fiction or fantasy blog if I tried because I'm an indie author, but it is what it is. They'd have to get some kind of strong recommendation from outside of my personal inquiries. I didn't realize you guys were taking the anti-publishing ranters (especially here) all that seriously. I generally roll my eyes at that kind of stuff, sort of like I roll my eyes at the anti-self-publishing ranters which are everywhere outside of KB. We are beset on all sides by negativity!

For what it's worth, I like small presses. I generally don't like to give my work away for free for no perceived benefit, when I could just sell it myself, but I have absolutely zero hostility toward small presses, especially if they really do care about their authors.

Edit: Just saw your post. That's bullcrap. Sorry you have to deal with that. If I see it again on these forums, I'll try to speak out against it.


----------



## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

George Berger said:


> Good gad, you self-centered small-press publishers. You get two farthings to rub together and think the world revolves around you, eh? You can't just think only of yourself and threaten to leave us like this, *****! We apprentices aren't ready to carry your burden of the sarcasm around here yet! You'd realize this, if you weren't so busy taking every offhand comment personally.


Oh ye gods, this was not a "goodbye cruel KB" thread.  Just reflecting on things that have transpired and conversations I've had with other little publishers.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Just as a side note, I feel welcome at KB now and have for some time. When I first came here, I did get hate emails, hate tweets, and a lot of really hurtful things. 

What kept me around, ironically, was KB readers who would tell me they appreciated what I had to say. Eventually, I found a place here.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

When I first came to KB, I responded to almost every post, no matter the topic. I just loved being part of this group.

Then, I became a reviewer and learned that I was not welcome on threads where reviews were being discussed. Some authors can get especially vindictive when a reviewer takes up for a reader who wrote a review on Amazon.

Later, I became an editor. After a while, I learned that I was not welcome on numerous threads. I made the mistake of trying to help someone and was accused of trying to drum up business. 

Now, I'm a publisher. 

I thought that would pretty much knock me out of all of the rest of the threads in the Writers' Cafe.    

But I was wrong! Instead, I realized that I can now be more like you, Julie!

That made me so happy. Please don't change!


----------



## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Just as a side note, I feel welcome at KB now and have for some time. When I first came here, I did get hate emails, hate tweets, and a lot of really hurtful things.
> 
> What kept me around, ironically, was KB readers who would tell me they appreciated what I had to say. Eventually, I found a place here.


Don't forget, you were quite menacing with the threat of "the fork"!


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Just as a side note, I feel welcome at KB now and have for some time. When I first came here, I did get hate emails, hate tweets, and a lot of really hurtful things.
> 
> What kept me around, ironically, was KB readers who would tell me they appreciated what I had to say. Eventually, I found a place here.


Krista, I'm glad you stuck around too.

@Lynn

You better keep posting here!! You're awesome!


----------



## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'm being asked this off list. If people are interested in why I stick with small niche presses, I can talk about it. I just want folks to understand that a) my career decisions are not up for debate and b) my career decisions are based on me being Canadian and a con lover.
> 
> _My path works for me because it makes me incredibly happy._


I'd be interested in the reasons.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

ShayneHellerman said:


> I edit and do acquisitions (read: slush pile minion) for a small press, so I can point out a few benefits from that perspective.
> 
> One benefit to going with a small press over indie is that there is a selection/rejection process. Despite being small, at the press I work for, we get a ton of submissions during each submission period, and we only choose a couple of subs each time. Having a third party who is willing to put their money where your mouth is gives your book credibility right off the top that it wouldn't have if it was self-published.
> 
> Another benefit is that, if you're with a decent small press, you'll get editing free of charge, from an editor who didn't just decide yesterday to hang out an editing shingle. And working with an editor is valuable for more than just the manuscript that editor works on - if a writer is willing to work with an editor they can learn a lot that they can apply to future manuscripts.


Thank you for replying.

I think one of my concerns about small presses is just what you allude to with editors, anyone can start one. It's actually a lot like the new crop of freelance editors (and indies, for that matter). They can and do just put up shingles. There are some good ones and some who are just love being involved in all things books, but aren't at a professional level. Knowing which is which, isn't always easy. I suppose what would help me understand the power of what a small press can really do would be to see one in action. I'd love to see examples of small presses with some real mainstream success stories.


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This isn't really about me personally, however. I KNOW I am blunt. I expect a certain group to respond in a certain way to my posts. This is a more in general how small publishers are treated. I have friends who run small presses who stay away from sites like KB with a 20 ft pole because certain elements of the rabid pro-indie crowd make them uncomfortable. It isn't even about things that are said in response to posts. It is often general statements made about how useless publishers are as a whole. Threads I haven't even posted to. And it isn't just here. It's blog posts by so-called experts who claim publishers are useless and are all dinosaurs. Some of the groups I am in, someone will ask a question about submitting to publishers and six people will chime in with the "Keep your money and self publish" rant, accusing all publishers of effectively stealing from writers.


Julie, I read the article in full, and I feel for you. Clearly you are devoted to your authors and I for one would be sorry to see you leave KB and to lose the benefit of your many years experience. Granted I don't accept all you say, but I always listen and I will stand my corner for the way in which I do business, if it doesn't match your opinions.

The part of the article that struck me was the common sense of not wanting to dilute your brand on sites that are totally pro self-publishing and the free to 99c brigade. (Of which I am one, regards my shorts.) The fact remains that they are a different market segment to your own and therefore, what's to lose sleep over.

I would think that sites such as Authonomy would be a better forum for your business as would most of the blog sites of the authors who participate. Many have not self published and are seeking someone to discover them to publish in print and as an eBook and still have the mind set that self-publishing is a last resort.

Authonomy is owned by Harper Collins and they have only picked up a handful of books from the site. The site is now run by an digital imprint who are offering to publish books it chooses as an eBook for 50% split of royalty and will only publish as a print book if the eBook is successful. Many books have slipped the net and some have gone on to be Great successes as self-published books. Some have even been picked up by small press indies.

There is a search facility for books by genre and new books are uploaded every week. I would imagine that for your business, sites like that, would be a better place to hang out on a regular basis.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Just as a side note, I feel welcome at KB now and have for some time. When I first came here, I did get hate emails, hate tweets, and a lot of really hurtful things.


Just want to say that if any member is abused through KB's private message system, they should report it to us.

Betsy


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

ShayneHellerman said:


> Having a third party who is willing to put their money where your mouth is gives your book credibility right off the top that it wouldn't have if it was self-published.
> 
> Another benefit is that, if you're with a decent small press, you'll get editing free of charge, from an editor who didn't just decide yesterday to hang out an editing shingle.


A lot of readers lump small and micro presses in with self-publishing, so I'm not sure how much of a leg up simply being published with one no one's ever heard of might give you. Niche audiences, perhaps (they know Loose ID and Samhain, for example), but what readers beyond a very small base have heard of most of the smaller pubs?

As for the benefit of editing, let's break that down a bit. Many small presses hire freelance editors. Most are screened, some aren't. Some are indeed hired off the street.

And never forget that an author IS paying for editing. I assume the editors are getting paid and not providing pro bono work. It's the authors who are paying their wages. There's a reason royalty rates aren't a 70/30 split of the net much less the gross.

It sounds great to say or to hear the publisher is doing all the work to bring a book out. None are doing it for the love. There is always compensation. And that compensation comes out of the authors' pockets. The risk the publisher takes is that the compensation won't cover their costs, but that speaks as much to the publisher's ability to attract or drive business as anything. If the pub's costs aren't covered, the author isn't realizing a profit either.

That said, I firmly believe that a small press that can offer the right benefits for the right price (not necessarily measured in dollar value) has a place in helping authors publish their works. But the benefits have to be real. Paying for editing through a reduced royalty structure for a contracted period of time may well be a better option for a cash-strapped author than paying a flat fee upfront. Authors just need to be savvy enough to figure out which is the best option for them. And small publishers are going to have to up their game to compete.

_(P.S. Note the Steel Magnolia Press bit in my siggy. I am NOT small pub bashing at all.)_


----------



## RobertLCollins (Feb 1, 2011)

Reading your first post made me a little sad.

There was a high school girl interested in becoming a writer at the monthly meeting of the local Doctor Who group. One of the things I told her was there's a vigorous market of small-press publishers, especially when it comes to short fiction and poetry. I'd hate to see that go away. Self-publishing is great, but so is working with good people.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Gregory Lynn said:


> I'd be interested in the reasons.


Let me get settled away, and I'll post tonight.


----------



## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

My first three books were published by a small e-press. I had a very good experience in terms of working with the publisher. Very honest, great communication, really helpful with new authors. But I realized after about a year with them that I probably could bring home a lot more money if I just did it all myself. I already had a background in publishing, including editing and graphic design. 

So I struck out on my own, and yes, the income I'm getting from my writing now is far, far greater than it was with the small press. I have absolutely no regrets, but I would never bad-mouth small presses. They're a great alternative for people who don't want to bother with cover design, editing, formatting, etc. I was about to add "promotion" to that list but realized I had to do it all myself even when I was with the small press.  They sent out review copies to a list of blogs, and that was about it for promo.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

R M Rowan said:


> Don't forget, you were quite menacing with the threat of "the fork"!


I think "the fork" was when it turned around for me.


----------



## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

Rex Jameson said:


> I didn't realize you guys were taking the anti-publishing ranters (especially here) all that seriously.


The difference is that when a self-publisher comes across an anti-indie rant on a writing forum, it doesn't really do much to your business. Your readers probably won't see it. It won't impact your sales in any way. If John Doe says indies suck, that doesn't really get seen by your readership, who isn't reading that blog anyway unless they are also writers.

When publishers come across anti-publisher rants on a writing forum, it effectively cuts us off from potential writers. People we might have wanted to work with just won't look at us without us offering an unreasonable deal. Authors demanding $100,000 advances because so-and-so said no author should consider a publisher for less. You'd link people would see through that nonsense, right? But no, they take it as gospel. Authors want 70% of the royalties because that is what Amazon pays and they "shouldn't leave money on the table." Heck, I've had people demand 10 cents a word for a short story because "I can sell it on Amazon for 99 cents and make more than what you are paying." This after they read my submission guidelines, chose to submit the story anyway, and then waited until I send the acceptance letter. Apparently it doesn't click in their heads they can sell the story to me AND self publish later if they wanted to.

So the problem is not that we take the rants seriously. The problem is so many new writers do. And when these writers take the anti-publisher rants to heart, it poisons them to working with us.


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> A lot of readers lump small and micro presses in with self-publishing, so I'm not sure how much of a leg up simply being published with one no one's ever heard of might give you. Niche audiences, perhaps (they know Loose ID and Samhain, for example), but what readers beyond a very small base have heard of most of the smaller pubs?
> 
> As for the benefit of editing, let's break that down a bit. Many small presses hire freelance editors. Most are screened, some aren't. Some are indeed hired off the street.
> 
> ...


I doubt many readers know other than the big publishers names. Many of the big publishers have imprints and I would never have known they owned the imprints had I not become a writer. Self pub authors that use professional services would be well advised to keep quiet that they are self published and use a publisher name and a price that reflects the investment in their work.

The fact remains there are writers out there who do not want to spend valuable time marketing as a self publisher. Nor do they want to, or can't design covers, edit and proof read, and they certainly don't want to shell out money in the lottery of services without any knowledge of how it all works.

I think it does create some credibility for the work if an indie small press picks up the MS and runs with it. I am talking here about a small press who run a submitions process and don't accept everything that is thrown at it.

Many self-publishers hang onto the coattails and spin from Mr Konrath, but you can't take away the fact that he started with the credibility of previous trad publishing. Readers are not stupid. When an ex trad, or indie author takes the self pub 99c route, you can be sure they are at an advantage with the perception that their work is seen as value for buck.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I've been researching self-publishing for around a year and a half now. I've read a _lot_ of blog posts and forum threads about traditional publishing, large versus small press publishing, self-publishing, etc. and know what _I_ want to do.

I recognise that self-publishing is a good fit for me because: I love playing with figures; I have wanted to run my own business for years; I love learning new things & am not daunted by starting from a position of complete ignorance (that's what research is for & I love researching stuff too!)

I've temped for most of my 'proper' career. I've had to hit the ground running doing jobs I wasn't trained to do and I've done it well. Self-publishing is a luxury - I've had ages to prepare and can take as much extra time as I want. 

So yes - it works for me but I can easily see that it wouldn't work for everyone. In fact, I know people who would hate to do all the things you have to do to go it alone, or who couldn't do them. I can recognise that there's a place for self-publishing and there's a place for traditional publishing (through both large & small publishers.) I don't like it when everyone starts ganging up on someone for having a different approach to business. As long as it's legal and ethical, what does it matter? What matters is that the author made their decision knowing their options.

Different authors need different things. Someone publishing a new roleplaying game would probably be much better off going through a small publisher like Julie who has an established customer base and has distribution/promotional contacts targetted at the audience they want to reach. Someone writing a romance may do better publishing themselves or, if they have several books, they might benefit from publishing one or more through somewhere like Samhain and gaining access to the customer base who would trust their name over an unknown publisher. Maybe spending the time and effort required to target the audience for a specific book would cost you more than the percentage you'd pay to a publisher who already has a route to that audience?

Everyone needs to look at what they write, how they write and what they can do/want to do. Once people know that then they can make a good business decision that suits _them_. One size definitely doesn't fit all when it comes to publishing!

This board should be about encouraging and informing authors and sharing knowledge. Debate is good and is healthy, as is telling people what they need to hear. However, sometimes I think that people need to remember that what works for them might not work for others.

I've rambled on a bit, but basically what I'm saying is that I sympathise with your position Julie and that I'd like to see these boards be a bit more friendly towards both publishers and authors who have publishing contracts with publishers. I've seen several complaints about people vanishing when they get successful - I wonder if that is in part because they got a publishing contract and didn't feel as welcome anymore?


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

All of that is a little ridiculous. I mean, small presses have long served a valuable place in publishing. Sometimes people can't get in with the Big 6, and others don't WANT to get in with the Big 6. Some people like working on a more personal level with their publisher instead of speaking to endless lines of agents, lawyers, and editors. Some have given up on the system and don't want to bother with it anymore.

Most importantly, lots of authors don't want to go it completely alone. Some don't have all the skills necessary to take a book from draft to finished product to distribution. It's complicated. It takes some money, and it takes a lot of know-how. Promoting and advertising after the publishing process is a drag, too.

Sometimes it's about contacts. Sometimes it's about not having the capital to get started. Sometimes it's just the want to do more writing than handle all the extraneous publishing stuff. It's okay. To tell people things like what Julie's quoted is just nonsense.

And, small presses are nothing like the Big 6, not by far. They share the name "publisher", but that's about the only similarity you'll see. Small presses are on "our" side (speaking of independent authors) because they'll embrace the same industry, technological, and social changes that we will. Why? Because they're on the same ship. They're trying to build up, not hold on to what's dwindling away. They're trying to grow in a hostile environment, just like us. They just happen not to want to go it completely alone. They bind together for mutual benefit.

Small presses, in general, are not the enemy. There are some disreputable ones, just as there are disreputable authors, agents, editors, cover and graphics designers, artists and illustrators, and everything else. There are bad doctors and lawyers, too. Likewise, there are good, professional ones.

If an author can hire freelancers for the things they can't do and do the rest on their own start to finish, have at it. If an author wants to get on with a small press, that's their decision to make. Like with any other venture, check them out. And just because someone says they operate a small press, that doesn't mean you should automatically label them PublishAmerica and point and laugh.


----------



## Benjamin A. (Oct 1, 2011)

I don't think most of us are pro-indie so much as pro-I'm going to pursue my dream, even if I have to go it alone. I would love nothing more than to have some of the pressure taken off, knowing there were others behind me. I'll be the first to admit I was ignorant to the choices. When I chose to self-publish, as far as I knew it was that vs. slush piles in the big publishing world.

I feel unwelcome here. I feel unwelcome on the Amazon forums. I can't speak for other book sites, because this is the one I frequent most. I don't think this board's issue is really about publishing method. The problem is right-fighting. Everyone wants their way to be the right way, when there is no right way. People have found success with a thousand different approaches. People here are divided into cliques and have their favorite members who they interact with the vast majority of the time. Some are too busy being snarky and rude to those who disagree with them, because they're already doing well. I love debating, whether it's writing or anything else. When the mud starts flying though, it's no longer a debate, but right-fighting.

I would love to see a Writer's Cafe where we build each other up, and really come together as a community. Forget seperating ourselves based on time here, publishing method, or anything else. I think we're squandering of a lot of possibilities here, because there's too much focus on proving ourselves to those here and finally being recognized, or showing how far we stand above others. Just from what I've seen from lurking, instead of a group of writers, this board is a bunch of single authors who all happen to be standing in the same place. I'd love to see the board put this in the past, and start looking at each individual member for who they are, and work together to maximize all our potentials. Individually we all have varying levels of resources, but if we truly created a writing community, everyone would have access to much more than they would attain alone.

Julie, you have people here who always reply to you, and agree with the things you say. You've had an outcry of support after expressing your feelings. If that's unwelcome, what are those of us who are largely ignored or the targets of unnecessary snark most of the time when we post? I don't feel anyone is welcome here, because we treat all but our closest forum friends like enemies, instead of doing all we can to help bring each other up as colleagues and comrades. If you don't have any of the more popular KB personas in your corner, that's when it's like you're unwelcome here, because most of the time it's like being invisible. I can see so many possibilities when I look at the Writer's Cafe, and publishing in general, but nothing will happen until we accept one another as authors, learn about each other, and make an effort to work together for everyone's benefit.

I don't mean this as an attack against you Julie. I've read many threads you've participated in and enjoyed some of the posts and information contained within. It's not just you that feels unwelcome. Many do, and they may not ever say anything as they continue trying to find a place here. I hate to see anyone not like what's going on here, because I feel the same. I want everyone to be happy here as a writer, illustrator, editor, publisher or whatever else they may be. There's no reason we can't all succeed, because most readers always need another book. We all have the power to get all our books in more hands by working together more. We can't be a community if we stand alone or in small groups. It takes everyone to make a successful and strong community.

Less right-fighting, and more fighting for each other!


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

I hear what you're saying, Julie. It does seem to me that there is a lack of useful places online for small press people. 

On some forums, we are not "real published authors" because we don't have agents or get advances (typically). So, we try other places, and are a bit outside because we don't self-publish - most of the time, this is just a matter of seeing many threads that don't apply to me, but then there are the occasional, "You just think you're happy because you have Stockholm syndrome, poor idiot" vibes. I guess one must pick and choose which aspects are more annoying, and find whatever use one finds, and stop visiting the places that aren't useful. 

Oh well, less time on the internet is good for being productive. Likely better for the blood pressure, as well.


----------



## Guest (Mar 26, 2012)

To answer the question of "what can a small publisher actually do for me?" The answer is essentially, "all of the things you don't want to do yourself."  And that is what I tell people, even my own authors!  When Lynn Sadler came to me with her short story collection (after I had published her novella), I said to her "Lynn, you have a list of accolades longer than my arm.  You don't need me.  Did you think about self-publishing?" And her reply was that she didn't want to be bothered with the production end.  She writes.  She lectures.  She travels around the world with her hubby.  She wants nothing to do with editing and proofreading and design and distribution and bookkeeping.  And she trusted me to take care of the book.  When Peter Balaskas came to me with his collection, I said to him "Peter, you have a publishing company! Why don't you publish this through your own imprint?" He told me he was tired of dealing with the mundane parts of publishing.  He didn't like the production end.  And he didn't trust random people off the street to take care of his book.  But he trusted me because he loved what I did with his novella a few years before.  Same thing with Kevin and Channie.  Both times when they pitched me, I mentioned to them self-publishing was an option.  Neither of them wanted to deal with the production aspect. And they trusted me over trying to hire people cold when they didn't really know what they actually needed.  That is a profoundly humbling experience when an author comes to you and says "I trust you."  They would rather "leave money on the table" and deal with someone they trust and someone they know will take care of their book instead of taking chances in the Virtual Wild West of self-publishing.

I have always said that if you are like me, a project junkie, self-publishing can be a good option.  But if you are someone who doesn't want to deal with finding editors and proofreaders and cover artists and dealing with distribution and accounting and all of the "non-writing" aspects of publishing, consider a publisher first.  Some people in this thread have noted how they worked with small presses in the past before self-publishing.  It can be a valuable learning experience if nothing else.  Take the opportunity to learn on someone else's dime.  I can't speak for every small publisher, but I know I don't just dictate to my authors what I am doing.  There is a constant back and forth and exchange of ideas.  I explain to them WHY I make certain decisions and what those decisions are based on.  Down the road, if they decide they want to self-publish, they will have that knowledge.  

The decision should be based on taking an honest assessment of your own skills and desire to perform certain tasks.  If you are selling thousands of books a month on your own, you don't need me.  But that doesn't mean the kid who can't figure out how to sell ten a month couldn't use my guidance.  I've seen books with a lot of potential that would sell if they were pushed in the right direction.  A little editing help.  A better cover.  Classifying the book for the right target market.  Some non-Amazon dependent marketing muscle to specific demographics.  They languish and those people could benefit from a publisher but won't seek out one because they have been convinced that they shouldn't deal with publishers.

If you can't afford editing.  If you don't have an eye for cover art and/or can't afford a good cover.  If you don't know anything about formatting.  If you don't want to deal with distribution.  If you don't know how to build a readership or how to promote your book at a fair price, look for a small publisher.  If you can do all of those things successfully by yourself, self-publish.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Benjamin A. said:


> Julie, you have people here who always reply to you, and agree with the things you say. You've had an outcry of support after expressing your feelings. If that's unwelcome, what are those of us who are largely ignored or the targets of unnecessary snark most of the time when we post? I don't feel anyone is welcome here, because we treat all but our closest forum friends like enemies, instead of doing all we can to help bring each other up as colleagues and comrades. If you don't have any of the more popular KB personas in your corner, that's when it's like you're unwelcome here, because most of the time it's like being invisible. I can see so many possibilities when I look at the Writer's Cafe, and publishing in general, but nothing will happen until we accept one another as authors, learn about each other, and make an effort to work together for everyone's benefit.


I remember seeing another thread where the topic of feeling whether you fit in here came up & it turned out that most of the people who commented felt that they didn't really fit in/weren't part of what they saw as the in-crowd - even people who struck other posters as part of that in-crowd!

I think, unless you're constantly name-checked, it's easy to feel that way.

However, a good thing about this board is that there doesn't seem to be one overall group that you must belong to or live forever out on the fringes. There are lots of little sub-groups, the long-time posters, the tell-it-like-it-is posters, the devil's advocate posters, the witty posters, the algorithm calculation posters, the publicity/tagging/tweeting posters, etc. & many people belong to more than one of those groups.

It's a board for everyone who wants to do things in an ethical way (because most posters here rightfully get annoyed at underhand things like sock-puppet reviews or attempts to harm other authors) & I agree with you Benjamin that we lose out if we separate ourselves based on publishing methods, etc.


----------



## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> A lot of readers lump small and micro presses in with self-publishing, so I'm not sure how much of a leg up simply being published with one no one's ever heard of might give you. Niche audiences, perhaps (they know Loose ID and Samhain, for example), but what readers beyond a very small base have heard of most of the smaller pubs?


I'd be willing to be that most readers can't name many presses beyond the really big ones, but there are certainly an abundance of other presses out there, not all of them 'small'. And just because someone doesn't recognize the name of a press doesn't mean they can't google it to see if it's a real press (as opposed to a self-pub using a publisher name).



Phoenix Sullivan said:


> As for the benefit of editing, let's break that down a bit. Many small presses hire freelance editors. Most are screened, some aren't. Some are indeed hired off the street.


This is why I specified a _decent_ press. Yes, to be sure, there are some crappy small presses out there. But a decent one will have standards and a submission process and editors who know what they're doing. After all, hiring bad editors will give a press a bad reputation, and that's bad for business.


----------



## T.K. (Mar 8, 2011)

"However, a good thing about this board is that there doesn't seem to be one overall group that you must belong to or live forever out on the fringes.  There are lots of little sub-groups, the long-time posters, the tell-it-like-it-is posters, the devil's advocate posters, the witty posters, the algorithm calculation posters, the publicity/tagging/tweeting posters, etc. & many people belong to more than one of those groups."

My first thought was - "Groups? We have groups here on KB? I haven't joined a group. Probably wouldn't fit in with it anyway..." 


And Julie, though many topics have sprung from your initial post, I believe you make a valid point for small presses - where do they fit in on forums? After all publishers of small presses are/can be writers, too. 

So I Googled Small Press Associations to see if there really was somewhere in this big wide world of publishing that small presses do indeed fit in. Undoubtedly you've heard of these lovely (named) sites - SPAWN, SPAN, SPAM (?), SPANNET? 

Anyway, I propose a new site/forum/thread for small publishers who don't fall into the self pub category or the Big 6 category. And since so many artsy names are already taken we could (this is open for debate/vote) name this new online society 

SPUT - Small Publishers Unite Together
SPIT - Small Publishers Inspiring Trends
SPARTAN - Small Presses Are Really The Answer Now 


Joking aside - Julie, you always offer sound advice and well thought out answers here on KB. I, for one, appreciate your contributions.


----------



## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

I've read through all of this, and I've had various thoughts and reactions. I've studied the publishing industry for years. I submitted for years. I've got the bathroom wallpaper to prove it. I saw the industry go topsy-turvy, and decided now was the time. You either do it or you don't. I'm now convinced that going indie is a practical and economical choice. However, I recognize that this isn't the best route for every person. Small presses fills in a much needed gap and provides a useful service. I think most of the folks here are DIY types -entrepreneurs. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with a small press either. There's room for all of us. I don't have the same feelings about the Big NYC publishers right now. I don't see them making smart choices, and choose not to put my faith in them at this time.

A few of the thoughts I've had throughout reading this thread-

To Krista & Julie: I confess that I didn't get your snark and bluntness when I first came on the boards, but after some time, I saw a number of thoughtful, intelligent, and logical responses that changed my mind about both of you. In fact, I now find some of the snark humorous. You both tend to grow on people, but as long as you hold the titles "Queen of Snark" and "Queen of Mean" (of which I think you cultivate on purpose and for the enjoyment of all), you need to expect that not everyone will "get you". However, some will be like me, and come around in time.

About Small Presses - One of my goals is to establish a small education press, but I don't see that happening for awhile. I'm establishing my own titles first, then perhaps one day, I will go the extra mile and hang out my sign. After all, Scholastic started out small too.

About the ugly quotes from other forums: Julie -The comments you posted from posters on other forums were seriously rude. They probably come from people burned by traditional publishing. I've never seen anyone say anything that rude here, and if they did, I am certain Betsy would stick her quilting needle in the thread and bust it.

About feeling unwelcome: Sometimes I feel ignored, but I keep posting anyway. I've learned a lot here, and I find the threads interesting. KB is the ultimate source for procrastinating. I have tried to start some crafting threads which have had a modicum of success, and keep the boards balanced a bit.

The one thing I think that is great about the indies and small presses here is the overall professional attitude about putting out a quality product. The folks here are serious about publishing, and I think that makes all the difference. We don't always agree. In fact, I think it would be impossible to bring a group of people together and get them to agree on everything, but we should hear other's point of view and post respectfully.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

I’m not so sure the fate of small presses is sealed by self-publishing—not because I’m an expert in the business, but because economics and history seem to be on the side of small when it comes to writing. Since human nature has been covered already, I’ll add the history and economics.  

1. Publishing conglomerates are an artefact of the late twentieth-century. It was small or smallish presses since Gutenberg. It seems reasonable that Amazon will level the distribution field without being able to control it. The absence of pressure on royalties will make small press “processing” a viable option.

2. Writers have never really been lone wolves. Historically, they’ve formed mutually beneficial circles (just look at Konrath, Crouch, Eisler, etc.). A small press could be a nexus for one or more circles where a big publisher/retailer like Amazon can’t.

3. I do some freelancing for a “small” press that publishes engineering texts. They’re doing well because there’s a seal of approval that goes along with their name. Apples and oranges you say? Not really. It’s a form of branding. If small presses can put 1 and 2 together to create 3, then it seems like they’d have a chance of excelling.

As I said before, I’m not an expert in small presses. But history and economics seem on your side.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Gregory Lynn said:


> I'd be interested in the reasons.


Ok, this is something I posted earlier elsewhere about this topic, but it applies (also edited for language  ).

I have a different career path than what a lot of people do. I'm ok with that. Working with small Canadian publishers helps a lot. For me, bring recognized in my own country by the SFF community is incredibly important. Small publishers help with that here. Also, in the convention crowd, they pay attention to publishers. They watch and know, and generally can tell you when a publisher is imploding.

I know outside of that crowd, no one gives a flying fig newton. But inside that community, many are making a small, decent living just off print sales from publisher tables. Oh sure, eventually most of us want to move on to the big times. But, we also want to be Canadian, to work with publishers and readers who don't need PEI written out in their stories.

Is it elitist? Probably. Do I care? Not really.

I'm happy. I love what I do. I love vendor tables at local conventions. I love going to book signings and events that all of the local publishers do. I love the relationships and connections I've made. I love that convention goers ask when my next book is out...and know it by name.

I know the vast majority of you have never read my work, nor probably ever will. I know that I have an abrasive personality that makes it difficult for me to promote properly online. But, I also know that face-to-face, I can do it. For whatever reason, I don't know how to convey over the interwebz why someone should read my stuff. In person, I don't need to do that because I know what I'm doing. And in working with a small publisher that's known locally and then with my ability to speak to crowds and whatnot, it works for me.

I get so much enjoyment out of working with small teams of people together on a project and that's how I feel when I work with a small press.

YMMV. This is mine.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

And that will be one of the most honest, from-the-heart, without any jokes posts you will ever see from me. 

Now, someone fork me.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> That all makes a whole lot of sense. Being happy kind of seems, um. The thing to be.


Now, would 100k make me happier? Probably. Then again, maybe not. Would I like to see if it would? Absolutely! But, for me and where I live and what I love, being with small presses has helped me tremendously in many different ways.

And I still do some self-publishing. It isn't that I need a publisher to handle things. I sometimes just want the business relationship.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

smreine said:


> Collaborating with a passionate team on something we love as much as writing is bliss.
> 
> But, uh... We have policies against from-the-heart honesty in these places. I'm afraid I'm going to have to give you a ticket for that one.


Sorry. I thought I'd be sincere for a change. It won't happen again.


----------



## kurzon (Feb 26, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> To answer the question of "what can a small publisher actually do for me?" The answer is essentially, "all of the things you don't want to do yourself."
> ...
> I have always said that if you are like me, a project junkie, self-publishing can be a good option. But if you are someone who doesn't want to deal with finding editors and proofreaders and cover artists and dealing with distribution and accounting and all of the "non-writing" aspects of publishing, consider a publisher first.


You said earlier that the self-publishing rhetoric of "all publishers are bad, you can't offer me anything that I can't do myself" is causing you damage, but I suspect you're worrying about a group of people that don't fit into the category of people who would benefit from working with you.

People who don't want to "do all the work" of self-publishing aren't going to self-publish. They're going to go with one of these new "assisted publishing" people or a small publisher or a larger publisher. And hopefully they'll meet success in their endeavours.

There's a lot of tiresome rhetoric on all 'sides' of this debate, but really, different options are going to work for different people and the vitriol of the ranty handful is best ignored - just as I eventually ignored the highly respected Australian small press editor who was absolutely clear in her insistence that it was simply impossible for a self-publisher to produce a work of matching quality to the work put out by publishers.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Is the problem that independents post comments saying they don't need publishers?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Is the problem that independents post comments saying they don't need publishers?


Not for me. If a person makes a decision for themselves, be it one project or their career, that's their choice. The only time this ruffles me if they base their decision on just random stuff (i.e. "I can't sign with a traditional epublisher like Samhain because they only give 15% royalties on ebooks! -- anyone in the R&E epublishing world knows how ridiculous that statement is).

Make a decision. Take a risk. Try a few things. All cool. Just do some research first.*

*This is my statement advice for most things.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> The only time this ruffles me if they base their decision on just random stuff (i.e. "I can't sign with a traditional epublisher like Samhain because they only give 15% royalties on ebooks! -- anyone in the R&E epublishing world knows how ridiculous that statement is).


The problem is some folks don't like the way independents make decisions? I suspect we all have years of decisions behind us that people didn't like. That's life.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Not for me. If a person makes a decision for themselves, be it one project or their career, that's their choice. The only time this ruffles me if they base their decision on just random stuff (i.e. "I can't sign with a traditional epublisher like Samhain because they only give 15% royalties on ebooks! -- anyone in the R&E epublishing world knows how ridiculous that statement is).
> 
> Make a decision. Take a risk. Try a few things. All cool. Just do some research first.*
> 
> *This is my statement advice for most things.


While people who say things like, "I'll sign with a publisher so I won't have to do promotion and can just write" make me sincerely want to slap them.

It works both ways. Do people really believe this stuff (on either side) when they say it?


----------



## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

I think I've been very lucky over the past few years. I've been able to review and edit without any real issues. I think this is because I've not been tossed full throttle into it all. I hear some of the horror stories from editor and publishers, from across the publishing industry, and realize that it takes all kinds.  

I have had to tell my husband, who is an author, not to pass on some of the things he's hearing on his critique group though. I just don't think my blood-pressure can take it. On their end it's all about going for the big 6, something I don't have a problem with until they start knocking anything else. I guess I'm with Krista and Julie on this, pick the path you feel best about and let others do the same. It's not really helpful to your own work, as an author, to go around ragging on other. Beside, I think that time could be better spent writing or something. 

Oh and I've also heard through my husband the "I'll sign with a publisher so I won't have to do promotion and can just write."   It's funny every time I see it.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> While people who say things like, "I'll sign with a publisher so I won't have to do promotion and can just write" make me sincerely want to slap them.


Those I slap, too.

I know my non-fic publisher will promote my work (the print copies - and I think this will be popular in print, but less so in ebook). I also know that means I'll be doing talks, signings, events, panels, and launches. Sure, they'll help organize it all and I'll just need to show up, but I'll still have to show up. I'll still have to speak, sign, and figure out how to spell Robyyne when all I hear is "Robin."  I will still have to speak in front of people. I will still have to take time out of writing.

Even when publishers send you on cross-Canada tours, you still have to take time out of your writing to do the tour! You still have to participate!!!



> It works both ways. Do people really believe this stuff (on either side) when they say it?


Yes. People hear what they want to hear. People also like to go to the Chicken Little the sky is falling aspect whenever possible. It's more entertaining.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> The problem is some folks don't like the way independents make decisions?


I have no idea.

I don't really have a dog in this conversation. I came here to answer a question posed. I've answered it with my perspective.


----------



## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I have no idea.
> 
> I don't really have a dog in this conversation. I came here to answer a question posed. I've answered it with my perspective.


Totally off topic but I love the cover to _Royal Schemes: A Comedy Collection_! It really stands out. I'd love to have the name of the artist.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bethany B. said:


> Totally off topic but I love the cover to _Royal Schemes: A Comedy Collection_! It really stands out. I'd love to have the name of the artist.


It was a $30 pre-made cover at Razzle Dazzle


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

WHDean said:


> I'm not so sure the fate of small presses is sealed by self-publishing-not because I'm an expert in the business, but because economics and history seem to be on the side of small when it comes to writing. Since human nature has been covered already, I'll add the history and economics.
> 
> 1. Publishing conglomerates are an artefact of the late twentieth-century. It was small or smallish presses since Gutenberg. It seems reasonable that Amazon will level the distribution field without being able to control it. The absence of pressure on royalties will make small press "processing" a viable option.
> 
> ...


I think you're right, and I think that certain outfits like Ridan Publishing show that even with a stable of former independent authors, a small press focused on its authors in this market can make a huge impact. Yes, I know that Michael is Robin's husband and her negotiations with Orbit have really launched him into the stratosphere, but before that, Ridan was doing quite well with no Big 6 help. Nathan Lowell, Joe Halderman, Leslie Ann Moore, and everyone there have done really well with Ridan, and I think focusing on these kinds of quality authors and making sure they have custom, personalized service will make small presses a power for many decades to come.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Rex Jameson said:


> *focused on its authors*


This is how a small press can succeed or fail. Right there.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I've heard that Ridan is having some serious issues.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Monique said:


> I've heard that Ridan is having some serious issues.


Did you hear this from Nathan or one of the writers, or was this something you read on AW? They banned her from responding to anymore threads and went a bit overboard on critiquing how Robin took a month or so to handle her dad's affairs after he passed. I haven't followed Robin in a while, but Nathan seemed to understand what was going on.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

All of the above. I know he's been (rightly) quite frustrated. He did post something about finally being contacted, but there was no follow after that. So, no idea if she dug out from under (I think she was ill) or if it's time to cut bait for a few authors.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Monique said:


> All of the above. I know he's been (rightly) quite frustrated. He did post something about finally being contacted, but there was no follow after that. So, no idea if she dug out from under (I think she was ill) or if it's time to cut bait for a few authors.


Arg. Well, if that's the case that they're still having issues releasing the rest of Nathan's series, that's very unfortunate. I do think Robin was doing a great job until her father's death and her illness, and I still think it shows the small press model is possible. I think Robin is very talented, but life sometimes gets in the way, and there's only so much we can do about it.


----------



## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I have found Krista and Julie to be exceptional people who give very clear and insightful appraisals whenever they get involved in anything, and also provide a healthy dose of "The Hard Truth" when it's necessary. Sometimes this is harder than people are willing to accept, but it is true none-the-less.

I think that if you did leave, Julie, the KB would be weakened by your departure and I for one want you to stay around.


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

ShayneHellerman said:


> ...Another benefit is that, if you're with a decent small press, you'll get editing free of charge, from an editor who didn't just decide yesterday to hang out an editing shingle. And working with an editor is valuable for more than just the manuscript that editor works on - if a writer is willing to work with an editor they can learn a lot that they can apply to future manuscripts.


I'm interested to learn more about small presses, so if someone could write a good ebook about it, I'll buy it. BUT, let's get one thing clear, with regard to the quote I put above, an author who goes with a small press *does not get editing "for free"*. The author pays for it in diminished royalties. Whether they get better exposure and more sales with a small press, well, that's still out for the jury I think, and probably is determined on a case-by-case basis anyway. It depends on the book and the publisher and how lucky you are too.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

What can a small publisher do?

1. Production: This includes editing, proofreading, cover art, and formatting. Can you pay to have someone do this for you? Sure. But if you can't afford it, this could be priceless. Do you "pay" for it in the long run through your royalties? Well, for the sake of the author and the small publisher, let's hope so. On another note, I actually have some clients who come to us for editing with the sole purpose of submitting to publishers or agents. Yes, they pay to have their book edited so they can take it to an agent or publisher. Hmmm... Can't imagine why they'd want a publisher if they already paid for editing. Gee, maybe it's for the...

2. Branding: I read a one-star review last week. At the end of the review, the reader typed something like, "I looked up ***** Publishing, and you're not fooling anyone by pretending you had a publisher." Readers are getting more savvy. Up until the recent past, most readers didn't know or care who published a book. Now, I've seen forums where readers will ask things like, "How do I avoid buying independently published books?" The responses vary, but more and more often, people are responding, "Look up the publisher." Of course, that branding is a bit useless without the quality of #1 and...

3. Publicity: A small publisher makes no money if the book doesn't sell. Does this mean the author can kick back and do nothing? No. But it does mean the author will have someone else trying to sell their book. This could also include things like expanded distribution and other options more available to publishers than individuals.

Does this mean I think everyone should get a publisher? Nope.



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> If you can't afford editing. If you don't have an eye for cover art and/or can't afford a good cover. If you don't know anything about formatting. If you don't want to deal with distribution. If you don't know how to build a readership or how to promote your book at a fair price, look for a small publisher. *If you can do all of those things successfully by yourself, self-publish. *


----------



## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Is the problem that independents post comments saying they don't need publishers?


The problem is that many indies post comments saying NOBODY needs a publisher and that we are crooked, don't care about writers, don't know our butts from a whole in the ground, etc, etc, etc.

Again, this wasn't a feel-sorry-for-***** thread. I even tried to stress that it wasn't a KB specific thread, which is why I posted the full article elsewhere. It is a general direction that I see things going. A hardening of positions that simply forgets there is a world outside of Amazon and a world outside of NYC.

I also think part of the problem is that a lot of folks equate everyone with a website with a small press publisher. Like anything else in the universe, you have to do the research on a specific publisher and decide if that publisher is a good fit for you.

What a small press should do (and if you are able to do all of this yourself, you don't need a small press. But recognize that not every writer can):

1. Full content and line editing and proofreading. Yes, you CAN hire your own content editors and proofreaders if you have the resources to do so. Or you can insist you don't need an editor. Or you can swap services with someone to get editing cheap. But the difference between outsourcing and editor and getting editing from a good small press is that the editing from the small press will be genre specific and geared to the marketplace.

For example, all we publish is speculative fiction. We know the norms of the genres we publish in and the expectations of that readership. We edit to those expectations. A good small press has the RIGHT editor for your book, not just the lowest cost editor or the one available at the time. This is particularly important for content editing. If the editor doesn't know the genre, they may not pick up on problems.

There are often two problems I find in terms of indie editing: under-editing and hyper-editing. Under-editing often happens when the indie relies on friends or beta readers. These folks can do a decent proofread, but don't pick up on the nuances or subtle problems of the book. Hyper-editing often happens when the indie does pay a "professional" editor. The editor often edits exactly to his or her preferred style guide, regardless of the readability of the work. For example, when an editor follows the rule of never splitting an infinitive to the extreme or insists that every sentence fragment be removed regardless of the context of its use. I've seen some great stories have the wind taken out of them simply because the editor applied graduate paper editing to a horror story.

2. Cover design. Yes, you can hire your own cover artists. Many are very inexpensive and a lot of cover artists work for both small presses and indies. But while it is easy to hire an artist, it isn't so easy to get a good cover for your book. You need to be able to articulate what you want, and the artist needs to be able to design for a cover (not a portrait). I see covers all the time where the artist was apparently so enamored with the final work (rightfully so, I might add) that the title and author name are squeezed around the image to avoid covering any of it up. Lovely image, bad cover. Or the cover is too busy because both the author and artist forgot to design for thumbnail and not full size painting. Again, lovely at full size on the screen, but a squished blur at thumbnail.

3. Formatting. Yes, you can hire your own help to format. And if you are computer savvy you can format simple documents yourself. But even with formatting, there is a difference between formatting to specs so the file works and formatting so that it looks good. This is particularly important with print products. One of the things I pride myself on is that, whenever my authors get their print copies from me, the first thing they say is how amazing the book looks. Knowing what kerning is, how to eliminate widows and orphans, how to use white space effectively, and when to break up long sections of text for ease of reading are just as much skills as writing. Most people can format a document that is functional. Not everyone can format a document that is pleasing to the eye.

4. Distribution. The difference between successful small presses and indies is that small presses know how to sell off of Amazon. I know this is a heretical thing to say, but many of the small presses I know don't do the bulk of their business on Amazon. They spread the risk around throughout distribution networks. Two years ago, selling at 99 cents was almost a guarantee of sales. Now many readers look at that price as the "indie" price and think twice. When Select first launched, it was almost a guarantee sales bump. Now only a few months later, people are already claiming it isn't working as well any more.

Small press publishers spread their risk around to avoid losing everything on one vendor. We've seen stories of Amazon freezing accounts (sometimes for a good reason, sometimes by accident) or books becoming suddenly unavailable. To the small press publisher, these problems are nuisances but not back-breaking. This means the publishers financial resources are not tied into one outlet and provides more stability.

5. Infrastructure: The biggest thing a small press publisher offers is an existing infrastructure. Good publishers already have a network in place and have a loyal following of readers. Those readers come to expect a certain type of book from the publisher, and will buy from the publisher regularly. For the author who is worried that "nobody will take a chance on an unknown author," this is vital. You are no longer an "unknown writer." You are one of the publisher's authors.

6. Marketing: despite the fact that people claim publishers don't promote, I don't know any for which that is true. We all market aggressively. The difference is that we market differently from indies. An indie is marketing a single book all the time. Small publishers are constantly brand-building to expand their base (see Infrastructure above). I'm not just trying to get people to buy a single book. I've trying to get them to sign up for my newsletter or follow me on FB so I can market ALL my books to them. Publishers market to build long-term connections, not just sell a copy of a book. That branding overcomes the "unknown author" problem. Over time, readers may not know who you are, but they recognize the publisher name and have expectations of a certain quality.

It's great if an author wants to participate in marketing. And it is smart to be involved in the marketing. But when you are working with a publisher, your own marketing efforts are made easier because you can lean on the publisher's brand and tools. You aren't screaming into a void hoping someone notices you. Good publishers have systems in place you can work in. For example, I run the virtual book tour program. It benefits indie authors, but it also benefits me because it gives me a network of bloggers to promote my authors on. When I promote the book tour program, it drives traffic to my site, and that traffic often converts to subscribers who covert to buyers. With the virtual book fair I am putting together, of COURSE I feel it will benefit me because it will drive traffic to my site, which helps my authors. I generally lose money on the writing contest each year, but in truth the writing contest is a giant marketing program, that drives traffic to my site. These are the types of marketing publishers do that authors don't see as marketing. All of these programs raise the profile of my company, which increases the visibility of my authors.

7. Administrative and customer service support: As a publisher, I am constantly putting out fires or running interference for my authors. I'm the one who deals with the problem when the artist that was hired suddenly flakes out. I'm the one on the phone with the printer when a customer tells me the book they just had delivered had the pages upside down. I'm the one that deals with the emails from customers who accidentally deleted their files and the vendor won't let them download the file again. I'm the one dealing with Amazon or Smashwords or BN when there is a problem with reporting. I'm the one sending the take-down notices to sites that are illegally file sharing. I'm the one weeding through the fifty offers to review the book to eliminate the moochers just trying to get a free copy of the book. There are so many things that can go wrong in any given month that my authors never know about because I just handle it. The amount of time many folks spend dealing with administrative tasks often gets overlooked. Some people are good at handling this sort of thing. Most aren't.

8. Access: There are places you can get into with a publisher that you can't being indie. This isn't important to some people, but it is important to others. You can't nominate yourself for the Pushcart Prize or the Shirley Jackson Prize, after all. Many writer guilds and professional groups don't consider self-published credits for entry. Some writer directories like Poets & Writers won't allow self-published credits for consideration. Personally, these things have never been important to me. For some of my authors, however, they are very important and I respect that. Several of my authors, for example, come from academic background (publish or perish). They can't include self-published works in their credentials. It is the nature of the world they function in.

9. Education: A good small press teaches you something. I truly believe this and this is what I personally strive for with my authors. I don't just do things. I explain to them WHY I am taking a certain action or why I am doing something in a certain way. I involve them in things like cover art design and explain why we're doing it the way they are. They see the final galley before publication and I explain the edits I've made. We talk about marketing plans and what would and would not be feasible. If you are really interested in self-publishing, working with a small press can be considered a training opportunity for doing it yourself. It's the chance to pick the brain whenever you want of someone who does this stuff all the time.

If one of my authors self-published his or her next book and was successful, I would be a proud momma. Because that would mean I did my job and took care of the author.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

David Adams said:


> I have found Krista and Julie to be exceptional people who give very clear and insightful appraisals


Thank you. I do want to be clear that it has been quite a while since I've felt unwanted here. It's been a long time since anyone's told me to go crawl up NY6s rear.


----------



## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

Julie, whenever I see something on here by you, I always read it. You're a wealth of information.

As for small press, I love them. I have tons of books by Cemetery Dance, Dark Regions, Sideshow Press (Who has published me countless times), Horror Express, Delirium and so forth. I have huge respect for these people. If you want to read horror, the small press is where it's at. As for self-publishing, it's okay. However you are wading through thousands of writers, whereas the small press already gives me their own fan base immediately in print and digital. I go there first to see what authors I already know are putting out. It's where I first came across Scott Nicholson and Brian Keene. I had heard of Joe Konrath there but never picked up what he was selling, just didn't, he didn't have what I was looking for.

I've been to a couple of conventions where I met a lot of these writers face to face. Being a Canadian, it costs a lot to do this, because they're usually held in the states or abroad. So, yup, I like small press and even a couple like me.  

BTW~

I just read the above from Julie, I put my response on here after reading the first page. Now after being on Kindle for a year with not a lot of sales (most of mine are coming from Apple and Sony) I have learned much, however, I have likely learned more about my craft from small press authors and publishers. And I have two books that I will be handing in to two small press publishers within the month. I'm quite happy with this, actually I am excited because these people know what I write. Here's an example: I rewrote a short novella of mine because it wasn't selling on Amazon. The original publisher had read it at some point and mentioned to me much later he felt I stripped my style out of it. My story was no longer me. Not the quiet, kind of literary writing that he was used to seeing from me. Right after that conversation, I received an email from another small press publisher that had originally published me in the UK. I hadn't heard from them for some time and they have requested a story, in my old style. Anyway, just wanted to add this last paragraph after reading Julie's answer above.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Douglas E Wright said:


> I have tons of books by Cemetery Dance, Dark Regions, Sideshow Press (Who has published me countless times), Horror Express, Delirium and so forth. I have huge respect for these people. If you want to read horror, the small press is where it's at.


If you like those publishers, you might like Northern Frights. Love their work (even if I can't sleep afterwards).



> Being a Canadian, it costs a lot to do this, because they're usually held in the states or abroad. So, yup, I like small press and even a couple like me.


You're in the wrong place, then! We always have horror folks at the SFF conventions out there. Come visit us!


----------



## Lisa Scott (Apr 4, 2011)

Julie, I can understand your frustration. The indie route is lined with big, glittering success stories that capture a lot of attention. We see examples of this every day from people we know and love on this board.   It's awesome.  And it's real easy to think, hey, that could be me.  Everyone wants to believe they can be the next one to hit it big on their own, especially since this indie opportunity is so new. But we know that won't be the case for all of us.  Not everyone has all the skills needed to make a success out of this venture.  

Hopefully those people will know about the services small publishers like you provide. What a wonderful option to have! And some writers may skip the indie route altogether after hearing from others what a tough slog it can be. The more that writers understand what you can do for them, the more likely they'll decide you're a great first option for publishing. I think it's really important for companies such as yours to keep contributing to the publishing dialogue so writers know about all their choices.  That's what so great for writers today--there are so many ways to pursue your dreams.   

It's very hard to get noticed and stay noticed.  That's one of the reasons I signed with Belle Bridge Books to publish my first romance novel this fall.  I even had it for sale on my own, but felt better diversified to have some of my eggs in a small publisher's basket, too.  It's also the reason I signed a big 6 deal for my debut middle grade novel.  I'm thrilled to be taking my publishing journey in three different directions, even if there are a hundred people on this board who think I'm crazy to not be 100% indie.  It's my journey, I like how it's unfolding, and I'd never tell anyone how they should pursue their dream.

For every person who puts down small publishers, there are probably ten others happy to learn more about what you provide.  Those people usually don't speak up.  I was lucky enough to be friends with an author singing Belle Bridge's praises who helped me realize it was the right choice for that book. Thank goodness she spoke up! 

Keep at it.  Share your authors' success stories.  Continue talking about what you do so people can find you.  Good luck!


----------



## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> If you like those publishers, you might like Northern Frights. Love their work (even if I can't sleep afterwards).
> 
> You're in the wrong place, then! We always have horror folks at the SFF conventions out there. Come visit us!


I have the Northern Frights anthologies. Love them. (Okay- just found the website to this publisher - I'll check them out. Thank you.)

I've lived all over Canada and finally decided to stay in Victoria. I love the HWA conventions and the Stokers. Seeing I'm not all that far away from you, I will have to check out what's happening in Alberta! In the summer. LOL


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Douglas E Wright said:


> I have the Northern Frights anthologies. Love them.


Did you grab this one? It's by their owner: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11957504-alice-dorothy

It was one of my MUST READS recommendations for 2011.



> I've lived all over Canada and finally decided to stay in Victoria. I love the HWA conventions and the Stokers. Seeing I'm not all that far away from you, I will have to check out what's happening in Alberta! In the summer. LOL


Try to come to When Words Collide - http://www.whenwordscollide.org/ It's CanVention this year (so, exciting, Auroras!!) They do all genres, so you might even be able to drop the organizers an email and ask if you could participate in a horror readers panel


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

(SEEE GUYS?!?!?! I've told you that my peeps in the Canadian spec world *do* pay attention to publishers. None of you believed me. And now, here is a prime example of someone mentioned publishers they love, I recommended another, he has their collections, I recommend the owner's novel. Small town up here  )


----------



## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Did you grab this one? It's by their owner: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11957504-alice-dorothy
> 
> It was one of my MUST READS recommendations for 2011.
> 
> Try to come to When Words Collide - http://www.whenwordscollide.org/ It's CanVention this year (so, exciting, Auroras!!) They do all genres, so you might even be able to drop the organizers an email and ask if you could participate in a horror readers panel


Just downloaded it, Krista. Also, went to the website but it looks like it may be on hiatus. So, sent them an email to find out. Thanks for the advice. Greatly appreciate it. On a side note, I have been published in the UK and the US, but never in Canada. Another small press I like (Canadian) is Chizine. They're doing great things.


----------



## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> (SEEE GUYS?!?!?! I've told you that my peeps in the Canadian spec world *do* pay attention to publishers. None of you believed me. And now, here is a prime example of someone mentioned publishers they love, I recommended another, he has their collections, I recommend the owner's novel. Small town up here  )


Yep, you're right. I've been involved with the small press since about 1999 and I almost have a book a day arrive at my door. This country can really be like a small town. If you think about it, the entire Canadian population equals Greater Tokyo! So, it's like going next door for a cup of sugar.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Did you mean JW's site? I'll drop him a line. The goodreads link might be wrong.

ChiZine's horror terrifies me, but they do put out good weird work that's for sure. I need to pick up Derryl Murphy's one from last year, but I keep forgetting.


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

* Cautiously sticks out neck, dips toe into water. *

Want to follow up w/some points on page 1 of this thread and on this page, cause I didn't take time to read pages 2 & 3 .

Speaking as an author for a new small imprint for historical fiction of a serious sort, and both of its launch titles received award recognition ( from a judged, notforprofit competition), I'm glad to have begun with a small publisher. Had received an offer prior to that from a larger imprint but it was bought out and it suddenly reneged. Back to square one but no regrets here. And had also dealt with some NYC types who were frankly too stupid to publish this particular work set in prehistory. That's just fact. Their young, underpaid staffers simply didn't get it. One editor actually asked " Were there people in Europe then? " ..................!

Small publishers work harder at promotion and marketing. The author must still interact on the web, etc, to help generate sales -- or I wouldn't be here posting away.

It is easier to get trade reviews and enter certain award competitions if the title has a publisher entity, even a micropress entity behind it. & A small publisher wouldn't push a new title out into the World without advance planning -- 
The number of self-pubs who put the book out and then wander these threads looking for reviews and exposure is rather astonishing. Who would put out any product without advance planning?

All the negative _comments about "control is better for self-pubs , royalties are better for self-pubs " and _ yaddayadda aren't necessarily true. Some small presses want the author's input on cover design and layout. You could always ASK for that in your contract with a small press if design input is that important to you.

A solid small publisher will take on a title that will only ever sell "midlist" -- not looking to burn down the world, hit the jackpot; but neither a large nor a small publisher want to subsidize a loser title either. Don't kvetch about royalty rates unless you produce a title that earns back the direct and indirect costs associated with putting it out in the World. And again, the author must still get out there and promote as well.

Just some points off the top of my head. Another person's bad experience with a small press doesn't mean yours has to be bad.

Now, if anyone has some quality historical fiction they'd like to submit...


----------



## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Did you mean JW's site? I'll drop him a line. The goodreads link might be wrong.
> 
> ChiZine's horror terrifies me, but they do put out good weird work that's for sure. I need to pick up Derryl Murphy's one from last year, but I keep forgetting.


I did a search for NFs site and went there and read the news articles. That's where I saw the news from last April. I don't have many of Chizine's books. However, I own a few. I'm taking a course in May and one of their authors, Robert Wiersema, is a national best seller. The last time I took one of his classes, he said my stuff creeped him out. I was very proud.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Douglas E Wright said:


> he said my stuff creeped him out. I was very proud.


Praise indeed!


----------



## elalond (May 11, 2011)

I'm more of a lurker than anything else, and in my lurking on KB I learned to read all the comments posted under Sith Witch's avatar, because I always gain something from them.
I also learned that people like to generalise things: from 'all self-published books are crap' to 'all the publishers are bad'. There is not only one right path any more and blindly following Konrath or advices from some agent's blog would only narrow the possibilities that are available to authors. Every path has its own advantages and disadvantages and it's on author to decide which one is the best for him/her. And to throw all that isn't self-publishing in the same bin tells about the ignorance. I'm sorry to hear that you have to deal with that kind of attitude on regular basis.


----------



## Glenn Bullion (Sep 28, 2010)

I have been lurking more than anything else lately. Some people may remember me, maybe not.   But I have been keeping you all in line with my force powers.

Just wanted to add, only a few people I have gone to personally for advice here.  Julie was one of them.  I'm sure I thanked her privately, but probably not publicly.  She is awesome.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Glenn Bullion said:


> I have been lurking more than anything else lately. Some people may remember me, maybe not.  But I have been keeping you all in line with my force powers.
> 
> Just wanted to add, only a few people I have gone to personally for advice here. Julie was one of them. I'm sure I thanked her privately, but probably not publicly. She is awesome.


Glad to see you're still around, Glenn. Also glad to see that your Demon Spawn book is still doing well!


----------



## Lindy (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm brand new to the forum (*waves* - hello, all!) as well as to the thought of publishing.  My manuscript is still in the "had an editor read it, give me comments, I'm working on some changes" phase, though I'm getting there slowly but surely.  Working 40 hours a week is taking a chunk out of my creative time, but there's no way around it right now.

I've read through the entire thread (whew, lots of information and opinions) and wanted first to thank everyone for posting their thoughts.  I digested them with my lunch (*hic*) and have re-read Julie's post about why small publishers are a choice to consider.

The sheer volume of options is astounding.  So many publishing houses, self-publishing, and whether or not to get an agent choices have me overwhelmed, frankly.  I've read the terms and conditions, and the different packages available from some of the publishers, and haven't found one yet that I felt was a good fit for me.  I came to this forum with the thought of learning more about self-publishing, and even with all of the information I'm finding, I'm still not sure which direction I should go.

Perhaps what I should do is ask you guys.  I'll start a new thread so my question doesn't get lost or sidetrack this thread.  I would appreciate any constructive input, please.


----------



## Glenn Bullion (Sep 28, 2010)

Rex Jameson said:


> Glad to see you're still around, Glenn. Also glad to see that your Demon Spawn book is still doing well!


Thanks.  To my surprise, Demonspawn has built an audience. I get emails asking if I'll continue the story. It's a good feeling.


----------



## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The difference is that when a self-publisher comes across an anti-indie rant on a writing forum, it doesn't really do much to your business. Your readers probably won't see it. It won't impact your sales in any way. If John Doe says indies suck, that doesn't really get seen by your readership, who isn't reading that blog anyway unless they are also writers.
> 
> When publishers come across anti-publisher rants on a writing forum, it effectively cuts us off from potential writers. People we might have wanted to work with just won't look at us without us offering an unreasonable deal. Authors demanding $100,000 advances because so-and-so said no author should consider a publisher for less. You'd link people would see through that nonsense, right? But no, they take it as gospel. Authors want 70% of the royalties because that is what Amazon pays and they "shouldn't leave money on the table." Heck, I've had people demand 10 cents a word for a short story because "I can sell it on Amazon for 99 cents and make more than what you are paying." This after they read my submission guidelines, chose to submit the story anyway, and then waited until I send the acceptance letter. Apparently it doesn't click in their heads they can sell the story to me AND self publish later if they wanted to.
> 
> So the problem is not that we take the rants seriously. The problem is so many new writers do. And when these writers take the anti-publisher rants to heart, it poisons them to working with us.


It works both ways. Look at Scott Turow's recent rant in favor of traditional publishing. Dennis Lehane was recently quoted as saying he wouldn't read a self-published book. These voices carry a lot of weight. There are still a lot of people who will argue against self-publishing and a lot of readers who will look down their noses at self-published books. I suspect some of the more pugnacious comments denigrating publishers you're seeing are a reaction to those sentiments.

It also seems to me in the response I quoted above that you're finding writers arguing money with you. Not sure what you're going to do about that. If Amazon pays 70% and you pay less than that, it may very well be true that some writers will make more self-publishing than by going with a small press. You'll have to make a case for how going with your press will generate enough additional sales to offset the reduced royalty rate.


----------



## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

Asher MacDonald said:


> It also seems to me in the response I quoted above that you're finding writers arguing money with you. Not sure what you're going to do about that. If Amazon pays 70% and you pay less than that, it may very well be true that some writers will make more self-publishing than by going with a small press. You'll have to make a case for how going with your press will generate enough additional sales to offset the reduced royalty rate.


The issue is they want Amazon's royalty rate but still want me to do all of the work (see my post above about what a publisher does). Amazon can pay 70% because they don't do anything a publisher does. You are just paying them a commission to sell your book. The disconnect is when they don't connect the dots and want the publisher to absorb all of the costs, but they still want all of the rewards. It isn't about additional sales per se. Let's say you have a book that you manage to sell 1000 copies of. It costs you $2,000 to produce after you calculate cover art, proofreading, formatting, and the advertising you did. If you sold that book at $2.99 on Amazon, you net $2,090. Or rather, you made $90 profit.

Now lets take the same book and it sells 1,000 copies with a publisher. It costs you nothing to produce. The publisher eats all of the costs. The book sells for $2.99. Lets say you only get 20% royalties. You end up making "only" .59 cents a sale. On 1,000 copies, you net $590. Let's say you are getting 30% royalties. Now you've made $890. Still "less" than you made with Amazon, but your actual NET PROFIT is much higher.

Now of course, if you spend nothing on cover art and nothing on editing and nothing on formatting and nothing on advertising and still sell 1000 copies, then maybe you don't need a small press. This is my point.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> The issue is they want Amazon's royalty rate but still want me to do all of the work (see my post above about what a publisher does).


OK. They don't get what they want.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Julie, your example only works if the expectation is to sell 1000 copies and no more.

Let's take it up a notch, to 2000 copies sold.

At 70%, you'd make $4186, minus $2000 in production costs. That $2186 in profit.

At 20%, you'd make $1180. At 30%, it's $1794. Now you've LOST between $392 and $1006.

The more copies you sell, the wider that gap.


----------



## Guest (Mar 27, 2012)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> *****, your example only works if the expectation is to sell 1000 copies and no more.
> 
> Let's take it up a notch, to 2000 copies sold.
> 
> ...


And for the 12th time, if you can sell thousands of copies at $2.99 on your own and you enjoy the publishing process, you don't need me. Go for it.

But, how many indies can, honestly, sell thousands of copies on their own at $2.99? Even here on KB, which is what I consider an "elite" community because it attracts a higher quality of self-publisher, for every thread of someone breaking the top 100 in their category or celebrating a huge milestone, there are five people struggling to sell five a month. Even look in the "Why is this book not selling?" thread. There are some really good books there that are not producing volume. And the advice is always the same. Get a new cover. Work on the blurb. Get an editor/proofreader. Put it in Select. Lower your price. How many times do we repeat those mantras before we say "you know what, your story is good. Maybe you would benefit from a publisher?"

My only point in this entire thread was that many small presses feel like nobody values what we can do FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN'T do it themselves. But the indie community on average would prefer that these people continue to bang their heads against the wall than consider a publisher route. Not everyone is good at running a business, and publishing is a business. I have a friend who is a professional chef. He never had a desire to run a business. He just wants to create gourmet meals. He would find it strange if suddenly all of his peers started insisting he should be running a restaurant instead of working for someone else.

The mentality that I see in the indie community reminds me of my Kirby days (yes, selling $2,000 vacuum cleaners door-to-door). Like most direct sales companies, all the shop owners want to promote people to their own shops, because then you make money off of them. So there was always enormous pressure on the best salesmen to open up their own Kirby outlets, because if they were selling 30 vacuums a month, imagine what they would do with a whole office! Ironically, the best salesmen often went bankrupt or closed their shops within the first year. Because while they were great at selling, they had no clue how to run a business. The qualities that made them good salesmen didn't make them good managers. The skills that helped them sell didn't help deal with HR or accounting issues.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Well, let's look at this another way.

If you spend that $2,000 in production and your book languishes with only 500 sales the first year (not an unheard of number from what I've read on these boards):

Self-publishing on Amazon at $2.99:

At 70%, you'd make $1,045, minus the $2,000 in production costs. That's a profit of... Whoops...

With the book at $2.99 with a publisher

At 20%, you'd make $299. At 30%, you'd make $448.50. All profit because the publisher eats the production costs.

Now, let's say that after that first year, the book takes off at some point and starts generating sales. 

Sure, the author gets a little less than they would have self-publishing. But they also got a $2,000 loan, and during that lean year, they might have written another book. If the publisher takes on the second, that's another $2,000 in production. Self-pubbing, the author would have been out $4,000, while waiting for one or both to generate sales.

********

Of course, a publisher will probably price the book higher than $2.99, so this is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. But that's another can of worms, so let's not open it here.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And for the 12th time, if you can sell thousands of copies at $2.99 on your own and you enjoy the publishing process, you don't need me. Go for it.
> 
> But, how many indies can, honestly, sell thousands of copies on their own at $2.99? Even here on KB, which is what I consider an "elite" community because it attracts a higher quality of self-publisher, for every thread of someone breaking the top 100 in their category or celebrating a huge milestone, there are five people struggling to sell five a month. Even look in the "Why is this book not selling?" thread. There are some really good books there that are not producing volume. And the advice is always the same. Get a new cover. Work on the blurb. Get an editor/proofreader. Put it in Select. Lower your price. How many times do we repeat those mantras before we say "you know what, your story is good. Maybe you would benefit from a publisher?"
> 
> ...


A fair few of us, Julie. I'm one of the *lower* sellers on this forum and this month I hit 4300 novels in the last year sold between $2.99 and $3.99. (And I've never spent $2000 on getting out a single novel)

I would have lost quite a lot of money.

Edit: And for my novels that aren't selling well, I don't know that a small publisher would do much for them. I know darn few small publishers who do a lot of promotion. I'd still end up doing the grunt work of trying to get them to sell better.

That makes it sound like I'm attacking small publishers. I'm not. I'm sure they have a place in the publishing world and are right for some people. Not for me. But a lot of authors here are making money, so the argument that we won't isn't a very convincing one.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

We cross-posted, but Julie has it 100% correct:



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And for the 12th time, if you can sell thousands of copies at $2.99 on your own and you enjoy the publishing process, you don't need me. Go for it.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> We cross-posted, but Julie has it 100% correct:


It would be a bit late to do that if I _assumed_ that I couldn't. And when I started self-publishing a year ago, I sure as heck _didn't_ know that I could.

Edit: A lot of people don't want to deal with covers and finding editors and up-front costs. Fair enough. And some people (as much as *I* think it's not a good reason) really want some kind of validation from some kind of publisher. That's their choice and they have a right to make that. And I would suggest anyone who is a first time self-publisher watch their budget and not break the bank. It's not a get-rich-quick scheme. But that shouldn't scare people who go in knowing that it's not easy and it's not fast.


----------



## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Ok, this is something I posted earlier elsewhere about this topic, but it applies (also edited for language  ).
> 
> I have a different career path than what a lot of people do. I'm ok with that. Working with small Canadian publishers helps a lot. For me, bring recognized in my own country by the SFF community is incredibly important. Small publishers help with that here. Also, in the convention crowd, they pay attention to publishers. They watch and know, and generally can tell you when a publisher is imploding.
> 
> ...


So, in a nutshell your target audience is a community you are a part of and you feel the small publisher provides inroads into that community in terms of sales/recognition/validation (to others that your stuff is better than fanfic) that you wouldn't get from publishing yourself?

Sounds reasonable.

I have a follow up question, if I may, or perhaps more than one, and please understand that I ask because I am curious and my perspective is one of someone who has never attended any convention of any literary kind whatsoever.

Since your target demographic is convention based, do you think doing other things such as volunteering at conventions might have helped provide inroads amongst the people who organize them that might have paved the way for you to appear on panels and such and given you the same kind of visibility and recognition?

I assume that the publisher bought the table at the convention and rotated writers through at various parts of the day. Do you think your career so far would have progressed differently if you'd just bought a table yourself and manned it (peopled? Vicious vampire-kittied?) as many hours of the day as you could stomach?


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> A fair few of us, Julie. I'm one of the *lower* sellers on this forum and this month I hit 4300 novels in the last year sold between $2.99 and $3.99.
> 
> I would have lost quite a lot of money.


Across 5 books, right?

That's 860 sales per book, which is $1,797.40 for a $2.99 book.

So if you had spent that $2,000 in production...


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Julie is starting to sell me on the small press option. As ambitious as I get now and then, the reality is I don't have to time. I work full time and freelance on the side. The last item on my list of things to do is self-publish stories. I planned to release them in October, now it's March.

So here are two questions for Julie:

1. I realize you can't make commitments sight unseen, but we're talking hypothetically here. Suppose I came to you with two collections of four thematically related short stories (the total word count in each set of four is around 25 k). My plan was to release each set for $2.99. Supposing you like the stories-just suppose, no need to commit-do you go along with my plan and do the cover, formatting and editing, or do you say, "Look, Dean, I like the stories but I'm angsting [] over the collections and price. You have to follow my model and put them all together with these other stories in this other collection because we only do it like this" (or some other model)?

2. Suppose you like the initial offerings. Can we then set up a production line (what a philistine metaphor!) where I send the pulp and you process? I mean can you operate that simply? It's not like I'm naive about the process; I'm asking because not everyone can run a tight ship. All I want to be doing is submitting (unedited) manuscripts, looking at a few covers and accepting changes on the edited copy. In other words, I'm extremely low maintenance; are you?

Tough to answer, I know, but I ask anyway because more people must be interested to know.

EDIT: This has nothing to do with validation, awards or seals of someone else's approval. I couldn't care less. It's about time.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> So if you had spent that $2,000 in production...


Can we get a line item breakdown of the $2,000?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Gregory Lynn said:


> So, in a nutshell your target audience is a community you are a part of and you feel the small publisher provides inroads into that community in terms of sales/recognition/validation (to others that your stuff is better than fanfic) that you wouldn't get from publishing yourself?
> 
> Sounds reasonable.
> 
> ...


All of that is true and I do all of that as well. It's not an either or, in this case.

They can also take my stuff and go to other conventions that I cannot attend and get my name out there for me. So that when I contact local comic stores, they often already know who I am because at least one of their staff had seen (or bought) my work. It's also easier for them to get tables at bigger events (like how we're waiting to see if we have a WFC table).

I've also done a solo vendor table. It's a lot of work. I no longer do them if I can avoid them. Even if stuck, I'd rather get together with 3-4 other authors I know and share a table. Or, get together with a publisher or two, and a couple of authors.

Many of the panels and conventions I've been invited to (including a big one coming up next month *yay*) often don't let unknown-to-them self-pub authors near a panel unless it's about self-publishing. The reason being is that they can't vouch for the reputation of the work (unless they'd read it). However, since many of us are reading books by specific publishers (the conversation above is a prime example of convention talk), the house's reputation is often enough to get you into the door.

Also, I make some serious contacts and networking, contacts that have continued to make it easier for me to continue my career the way I like (i.e. being invited to closed anthologies, and a little bigger ones each time because I've gained a bit of a reputation now). Sure, I'm still not with Addams yet, but I also haven't started submitting stories into the US pro market yet, either.

Now, I still self-publish. There are projects that I do for the love, for the experience, or because I simply want to and not answer to a single living person: Spirits Rising is a prime example.

For me, I have been about to carve out a tiny, little niche that makes me happy. It gives me the best of all worlds, with the exception of the big pay outs. That's the choice I made. I'm happy with it. If all it does is cover gas money for the year, then that's how it'll be. My choice is about a larger community of readers and choices and assistance, as opposed to just bottom line on cash. Mine, I guess, is bottom line for time and enjoyment.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> A fair few of us, Julie. I'm one of the *lower* sellers on this forum and this month I hit 4300 novels in the last year sold between $2.99 and $3.99. (And I've never spent $2000 on getting out a single novel)
> 
> I would have lost quite a lot of money.


Not that there aren't a gaggle of people here racking up unbelievable numbers, but I think 4300 sales in a year puts you in the upper percentiles. That's really good.

~

When I started out with this, I didn't have the faintest clue what kind of money people were putting into their books. I think if more prospective self-publishers were aware that many of the people who do well are spending, what, $500-3000 in production costs, then they'd have a much better understanding of the value a small press can provide them. Especially if you break those numbers down with realistic figures attached. Oh, a nice cover can be $50-800? A good editor's $200-750? A proofreader's another $100-300? Formatting is $50-100? Oh, _that's_ what I'm getting in exchange for giving this press half my earnings?

Suddenly it makes a lot more sense, especially for people who are just starting out and/or don't have the spare cash to invest on their own production. If I'd known all this a year ago, I think I would have given the small presses some serious thought.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Can we get a line item breakdown of the $2,000?


Heck, I was just using the example given.   

I don't think Indie authors usually purchase all of the following (and much varies by word count), but I'll at least list the things my publishing company does:

Content Editing
Line Editing
Two to Four Proofreads
Cover (eBook & Print)
Formatting (eBook & Print)
CreateSpace Fees
Outside Advertising/Publicity (meaning something other than just being listed on the publisher's website)

For us, some of this isn't about actual cash layout, but about time input. However, I like to believe that our time has a value.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> For us, some of this isn't about actual cash layout, but about time input. However, I like to believe that our time has a value.


But you must scale your cut to reflect (1) investment in the product and (2) expected return.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Businesses routinely do a calculation to determine cash payback time and units for a given investment. So if a firm is going to pay $10,000 for a new widget machine, it will calculate how long and how many widgets it will take to earn back the $10,000. 

It figures this for units sold and for time. So, it wants to know how many widgets will have to be sold to make back the $10,000. Then it will estimate how many widgets it will sell per month to find how long it will take. 

To apply this to cash costs for a self-published book, simply calculate startup costs for cover, editing, etc. Then divide that by the royalty per book. That tells us how many sales it will take to recoup the startup costs.

So:
Let A = startup costs
Let B = royalty per book 
Let C = payback units

C = A / B

C is the number of books that must be sold to recoup the startup costs. After that, all the royalties are profit.

Simple? Yes. 
Elementary? Yes. 
Everybody knows? Yes.
Forgotten by many? Yes. 

Often the very simplest things have the greatest value in making decisions.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

And that brings us back to the whole business that a publisher isn't going to take on a book that they expect to lose money on. They will expect the book to sell over 1000 copies. Or they will have a stable full of books that over time are trickling in small amounts each and eke out a living that way. Or they will go under.

I think the value-add of being able to sell a title once it's nicely edited, properly covered and perfectly formatted will be the deciding factor for many authors. I've heard the stories of $500 being average earnings for an author with a small publisher and, frankly, that's not enough, imo.

One of the issues I see is many small publishers trying to diversify across too many authors. They're not able to give any one author or title the time and attention needed to maximize earnings. Pushing a customer to the store is only a first step. Getting them to buy an author is still a tough battle. Then too many small publishers with growing lists abandon titles released last month to concentrate on titles released this month. That means the majority of sales for most of these titles will be in the first month or two after release.

And honestly, publishers who don't even consider the benefits of maximizing exposure and sales through tools such as Select after assessing genre, length and price point, are doing a disservice to their authors, imo. If a book doesn't capture sales in those first 90 days while the publisher still has their eye on it, it'll likely never capture many sales on down the road.

Two of the authors I work with are bogged down with real-life and can't/haven't taken the time to learn the market. A third author is super-savvy on the print side but still new to the digital world. Consulting is what I can offer them above and beyond what they can do on their own. I help them price their books at what the market can bear for the genre and what will return an optimized profit. The strategy includes stepped price adjustments.

For three of our titles, within the first six weeks of release one book, a very short novella, sold 1100 copies ($400), a second short novel sold 2500 copies ($1750) and a third novella sold 4000 copies ($6000). So yes, I do believe a publisher/consultant can bring the value-add necessary to the table.

What I would want to know as an author is the track record of a publisher before I even approached them. That for me is the missing ingredient when I'm looking at most publishers and deciding what they can do for me in my genre. *All else being equal * in the way of editing, covering and formatting, I want the publisher who has 10 authors each selling 500 copies of their books per month over the publisher who has 50 authors each selling 100 copies a month. Both may be equally reputable and in the black, but the one who can move books is the one I, personally, would want to partner with.

How many small publishers are actively providing this information?


----------



## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> All of that is true and I do all of that as well. It's not an either or, in this case.
> 
> They can also take my stuff and go to other conventions that I cannot attend and get my name out there for me. So that when I contact local comic stores, they often already know who I am because at least one of their staff had seen (or bought) my work. It's also easier for them to get tables at bigger events (like how we're waiting to see if we have a WFC table).
> 
> ...


Thanks. I think looking at people who do things slightly differently than the mainstream and why they chose to do things the way they do is often interesting and informative.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I was happy to answer why I do what I do. I think people should have an answer to the question: Why do you do it that way?

And it's ok to say "I wanted to try something different." That's ok, too.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I was happy to answer why I do what I do. I think people should have an answer to the question: Why do you do it that way?


Krista, you've found the value-add that means the most to you and that's the most anyone can ask for. You're very right that for some, it truly isn't about the money.

What I wonder, flipping your experience around, is how many publishers specifically look for people like yourself who want what you want from the relationship? In other words, do these pubs drum business at the cons? Or do they have another specific form of outreach?


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Let A = startup costs
> Let B = royalty per book
> Let C = payback units
> 
> C = A / B


Mine was $400/$2.56 = $159.25

ROI should be around 80:1 after 365 days.

I'm not really sold on the arguments that only indies with wealthy uncles can ever hope to self-publish. I think a policy of absorbing fixed costs has high merit, and I don't think the fixed costs required for self-publishing are all too daunting. Sure, you can spend 10K to get the ball rolling, but I myself have demonstrated that it can be done for under $500. And for the numbers I am talking about, even in the event of an abject failure, exchanging water for sodas and coffees could make you whole again (in addition to lowering your BPressure and BSugar). If you are living paycheck to paycheck, I'd even argue that obtaining a small loan might not be a bad option. Or you could treat the project like it's a Serta lounger on layaway. Or you could barter your skills using the many online aids available.

The time arguments don't sell me either. I've managed to attend medical school and write two novels. A certain writer that sells better than me was working a full-time job, caring for a child with autism, and still managed to produce more quality content than I did last year. So I'm not to sympathetic to those that claim they _can't_ find the time and money to self-publish, but I hold no grudge against those that _choose_ not to. We each have our priorities in life. We each value our time differently. And for those that want to offload managerial tasks, someone as talented as Julie could be ideal.

All that said, I would be happy to consider a partnership with a small press. It would have to be performance based-and I would be unwilling to sign away my rights-but I would be more than happy to share a significant portion of my royalties. If a small press can show me some hard numbers about how they can make me more money than I can make myself, they will have my complete and total attention.

B.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> Across 5 books, right?
> 
> That's 860 sales per book, which is $1,797.40 for a $2.99 book.
> 
> So if you had spent that $2,000 in production...


I said I never spend $2000 in production. There is no reason on earth to that I can see so that is a WILD hypothetical.

About 90% is across two books. But if you want to average for all of them that's fine. It is still one heck of a lot more than I would have made from a small publisher after expenses since darn few of us spend $2000 per book.

Three of them were backlist and were already edited which means the only cost was the covers.

I have never ever spent $2000 in production and can't imagine any reason why I should. I can get fairly high end editing for around $1000 and am unlikely to ever spend more that $200 for a cover.

Edit: About 90% were also priced at $3.99 which kind of throws off your figures. 

That comes to $2401 per book if you want to average it.

Anyone who doesn't WANT to make the investment in money, time and effort should go with a publisher, but I don't like the scaremongering tactic.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> For three of our titles, within the first six weeks of release one book, a very short novella, sold 1100 copies ($400), a second short novel sold 2500 copies ($1750) and a third novella sold 4000 copies ($6000). So yes, I do believe a publisher/consultant can bring the value-add necessary to the table.
> 
> What I would want to know as an author is the track record of a publisher before I even approached them. That for me is the missing ingredient when I'm looking at most publishers and deciding what they can do for me in my genre. *All else being equal * in the way of editing, covering and formatting, I want the publisher who has 10 authors each selling 500 copies of their books per month over the publisher who has 50 authors each selling 100 copies a month. Both may be equally reputable and in the black, but the one who can move books is the one I, personally, would want to partner with.
> 
> How many small publishers are actively providing this information?


I would quote this like five times if I could. Wait, I can. But let's just pretend I did, because that would be obnoxious.

Unless I expected to absolutely crush it with my next title, I would give a small publisher with a track record like this extremely serious consideration.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> What I wonder, flipping your experience around, is how many publishers specifically look for people like yourself who want what you want from the relationship? In other words, do these pubs drum business at the cons? Or do they have another specific form of outreach?


I'd argue that it needs to be a good fit on both sides. Often, this is where these types of publishers meet each other here. Sometimes, it's meeting other authors who recommend/refer you to other publishers. It's about how we work together best.

Some publishers are very focused online. Some are very focused in person. Some aren't focused at all. I've found getting to know the publsihers, the authors, and the books helps me make the best decisions for myself.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> What I would want to know as an author is the track record of a publisher before I even approached them. That for me is the missing ingredient when I'm looking at most publishers and deciding what they can do for me in my genre. *All else being equal * in the way of editing, covering and formatting, I want the publisher who has 10 authors each selling 500 copies of their books per month over the publisher who has 50 authors each selling 100 copies a month. Both may be equally reputable and in the black, but the one who can move books is the one I, personally, would want to partner with.
> 
> How many small publishers are actively providing this information?


Word.

This harkens back to my question about success stories. I'd love to see some real numbers.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> What can a small publisher do?
> 
> 1. Production: This includes editing, proofreading, cover art, and formatting. Can you pay to have someone do this for you? Sure. But if you can't afford it, this could be priceless. Do you "pay" for it in the long run through your royalties? Well, for the sake of the author and the small publisher, let's hope so. On another note, I actually have some clients who come to us for editing with the sole purpose of submitting to publishers or agents. Yes, they pay to have their book edited so they can take it to an agent or publisher. Hmmm... Can't imagine why they'd want a publisher if they already paid for editing. Gee, maybe it's for the...
> 
> ...


1. Yes, publishers can do those things without my having to pay up front. I may also (as I have in the past) get stuck with a cover and price that kills sales and no way to change it. This is an old argument. There are advantages both ways. I am definitely not convinced one way or the other by what other writers who may or may not have a clue do.

2. Sometimes, but my own experience is that the Brand is in the author. I am not going to be scared into going to going with a publisher by stories about what people say on forums.

3. And how many publishers put any real effort into marketing? Should they? Yes. Do they? Most of them, no. Most of them leave it to the author to do. Been there. If I have to do the grunt work anyway, I'll take the profits.

Phoenix has a GREAT point that a lot of it depends on the track record of the publisher--something we have WAY too little information about.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

If I were a small press, I'd offer an advance. I wouldn't offer a _big _advance, at least not at first, but if I forked over, say, $1,000, I'd be sure to attract a higher quality of fiction and would have a better chance of making some money, etc. Of course, I'd also have to be confident in my judgment, but if I weren't, I doubt I'd be starting a small press in the first place.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Monique said:


> Word.
> 
> This harkens back to my question about success stories. I'd love to see some real numbers.





genevieveaclark said:


> This.


Don't forget that the small publisher has a vested interest in your success: they're the ones who ponied up the money, so they're the ones losing money if you don't sell. I don't see how it makes a whole lot of difference until you're talking real outliers, presses outselling everyone else 20:1.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

WHDean said:


> Don't forget that the small publisher has a vested interest in your success: they're the ones who ponied up the money, so they're the ones losing money if you don't sell. I don't see how it makes a whole lot of difference until you're talking real outliers, presses outselling everyone else 20:1.


It would matter to me. A lot.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Don't forget that the small publisher has a vested interest in your success: they're the ones who ponied up the money, so they're the ones losing money if you don't sell. I don't see how it makes a whole lot of difference until you're talking real outliers, presses outselling everyone else 20:1.


You could apply the same logic to mutual funds...I wouldn't.

B.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> You could apply the same logic to mutual funds...I wouldn't.
> 
> B.


Not different species, but different bodily organs. Firms are judged (and mutual funds grown) by revenue, not units sold. That's how the Big Six does it. Unless there's a wide margin to show that one press really stands out from everyone else, it's hard to assign much value to 5,000 vs. 10,000/month. You need more data than sales out the door. You'd need price points, reviews generated, a whole list of things in my mind--but who's going to provide all that to every single person who asks?



Monique said:


> It would matter to me. A lot.


I dunno Monique. There's so many ways to pad numbers it probably wouldn't move me. I'd be more inclined to judge them by what they publish.


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

WHDean said:


> 1. I realize you can't make commitments sight unseen, but we're talking hypothetically here.


You know, an email that started just like this is how I ended up agreeing to publish Channie's short story collection. Come to think of it, this is also how I got roped into Peter's short story collection. And looking back, Lynn's too.

I adopt authors like some people adopt cats.









Hypothetically, since I'm not currently adopting...er...reading any full length projects at this time, IF I was inclined to adopt any more authors, the most important thing to me would be if the project excited me. Is it something I want to dig my fingers into and something I feel I can actually contribute to? I confess to being a project junkie. If something strikes me that it would be exciting to be a part of, that is the driving factor for me.

In the case of the two short story collections, my thoughts would go like this:

You want to do two short collections at $2.99? I can work with that. But, my thought would be to bundle the two collections as a single print book, using the dual-cover, reverse print approach to publish two shorts into a longer collection. But other than that, I go to my artists depending on what type of covers I think would work (depending on genre and theme), let you see prelim sketches and make suggestions, and get the cover done. I'll go through and do content editing, and if I find major problems I go back to you and either suggest what changes I'll make (if it is a small matter I can correct myself) or send it back to you (if it is a major plot hole that you need to resolve because only you know what you meant). Then a line edit. Then sent the galley to you for review. Then final proofreading. That is pretty much how I run with every project.

And to people who say publishers won't take on projects that they think will lose money. That isn't true. They won't take on projects that are money dumps that they don't believe in. But a lot of publishers take on projects that they never expect to recover their expenses. Some are like me and do it because they are just passionate about a project. Larger publishers do it ALL THE TIME with literary works so they can submit them to the big awards and increase their prestige. They take on works that will only ever sell to college classrooms because if they don't publish so many of a specific type of book the universities won't by a different type of book with a higher profit margin. Editors at large houses take on their own little pet projects for prestige or personal reasons.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Not different species, but different bodily organs. Firms are judged (and mutual funds grown) by revenue, not units sold. That's how the Big Six does it. Unless there's a wide margin to show that one press really stands out from everyone else, it's hard to assign much value to 5,000 vs. 10,000/month. You need more data than sales out the door. You'd need price points, reviews generated, a whole list of things in my mind--but who's going to provide all that to every single person who asks?


Agreed. That was why I was talking ROI above. I'm not interested in number of books sold. I'm interested in my share of the profits.

B.


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

I would, BTW, like to thank everyone for taking a thread asking that folks remember that not all small presses are scumbags trying to rip off authors and turning it into a thread essentially saying we're all useless losers, go indie.  I appreciate it.  Really.  

And no, I realize not everything has acted that way.  But this thread was not a "Why you need a publisher and indies suck" thread.  There was no reason to parade out indie sales numbers and list all the ways publishers such.  This was a, "please remember that not all authors are you, and not everyone can do everything and be happy doing everything."  But no, this just became another "If I can do it, anyone can! Go Indie!" thread.

Thanks guys.  Really.

Betsy, lock the thread, please.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I would, BTW, like to thank everyone for taking a thread asking that folks remember that not all small presses are scumbags trying to rip off authors and turning it into a thread essentially saying we're all useless losers, go indie. I appreciate it. Really.
> 
> And no, I realize not everything has acted that way. But this thread was not a "Why you need a publisher and indies suck" thread. There was no reason to parade out indie sales numbers and list all the ways publishers such. This was a, "please remember that not all authors are you, and not everyone can do everything and be happy doing everything." But no, this just became another "If I can do it, anyone can! Go Indie!" thread.


I'm not sure where this is coming from..? This thread _has_ actually helped me see where small presses provide value. I've really enjoyed reading it.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't think (most/many) are saying that publishers suck. I haven't read the whole thing, but the recent comments lean more toward, "What can a publisher do for me that I can't do for myself?"

You've (Julie) already said that if someone doesn't need your services (if they can do it themselves and hire freelancers), then go right ahead. I don't deny that, and it's a healthy position to have; you're not out to snatch away the money and run.

I think the implied question here is, "Can a small press do the same thing for me or better?" To that, they'd need justification by the numbers. And, I think that's a valid point. On commercial fiction, if a small press can't help push it any better than the author alone, is there any benefit?

Would an author be totally out of line wanting more on the front end in anticipation of the title performing badly (or slowly, however you want to think about it)? Sure, a $100,000 advance is silly, but if I were to go with a small press without a solid sales history, I'd probably want something in advance to give my publication rights to the company. A small press may make its money from sales all over by its many authors, but for an individual author, it's a personal issue; the singular author doesn't care about the overall sales if he won't be making many.

Thus, the problem may be a bit about knowing the direction or not knowing at all. Self-publishing becomes attractive because you may not know what will happen, but you'll still control your rights. Likewise, if you go with a super-huge-massive publisher, it's likely that your book will do well. You'll have a giant pot of money and know-how behind you with the huge publisher, but in self-publishing, you retain all the control and own your future.

The problem with small presses is the perception. It's not super-huge-massive publishing with a gigantic pot of money and an army of staff behind you, and it's not the 100% control/lottery method (self-publishing). It's something in between for which, unfortunately, not much data exists on sales track records or revenue history (any public info, anyway).

Not saying either side is right or wrong here, but I think clarifying what many may feel here could help. Proceed (or lock it, whichever).


----------



## Lindy (Mar 25, 2012)

I, too, have learned a lot about both sides of the issue from this thread.  I appreciate reading everyone's input.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> the project excited me. Is it something I want to dig my fingers into and something I feel I can actually contribute to?


It's at this point that I'd cite the old joke about how my mother enjoyed it. Truth be told, my mother read one of my stories and said flatly, "I couldn't make head nor tale of it." That ought to speak to the thickness of my skin.

Anyway, I'm actually going to mull it over.



B. Justin Shier said:


> Agreed. That was why I was talking ROI above. I'm not interested in number of books sold. I'm interested in my share of the profits.
> 
> B.


I'm not asking this in a dastardly way, but how much time do you figure you invested in getting the book from MSWord to Amazon? I don't mean money, I mean time. And, no, I'm not whining about how I don't have any, I'm talking opportunity cost. I'd rather be doing other things, say profitable or relaxing ones. I know it's tough to get straight answers to such questions because it's like asking how much time you _really _ spent on KB. But dig deep, real deep and ballpark a figure for me.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> but if I were to go with a small press without a solid sales history, I'd probably want something in advance to give my publication rights to the company.


_If_ you sold exclusive rights in perpetuity. The advance business doesn't mean as much to me as the rights. You could negotiate all kinds of arrangements. Not saying this contradicts what you said; it does open up options.


----------



## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Lynn ODell said:


> Across 5 books, right?
> 
> That's 860 sales per book, which is $1,797.40 for a $2.99 book.
> 
> So if you had spent that $2,000 in production...


Is this $2000 figure reasonable? Covers cost anywhere from $25 to $300. Formatting isn't hard but I guess if you had to pay for it, maybe $100? Editing is something like $1500? That seems like a lot more than most people pay.


----------



## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

Hi Julie,

I completely sympathize. My first two mysteries were self-published, and I was embraced in the indie amazon community. Now that my latest two books are traditionally published with a small publisher it's as if I don't exist. I'm really encouraged by the positive responses you're receiving on this thread (though I haven't read them all) however, and I'm convinced there's room for small publishers and traditionally published authors, and self-publishers. As writers, isn't it best to try as many publishing venues as possible, especially when we're starting out in a world where over a million titles a year are released?

I've read many of Joe Konrath's posts, plus Barry Eisler, Dean Wesley Smith, Kristine Kathryne Rusch, and while they are all well published and know both writing and the business, they're coming from a perspective of 20 or more years of traditional publishing experience where readerships have been built.

Nobody in this business is 100% right. I still believe it's up to each writer to choose his own path, and to support whomever you choose to. I don't mind if I'm ignored. It's okay, as I feel less guilty about not having the time to answer their pleas to buy and read their books. (I'm not a believer in pleading).  I'm happy, my publisher's happy, and I hope that places like Kindleboards, Facebook, or Goodreads ever become vehicles for only one type of writer.

Good luck!


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I think it is true that many people, in their discussions of publishing, *lump many dissimilar approaches together*, and that is both inaccurate and unhelpful.


Exactly. You can't really assume this or that is the only way it works in business. There are any number of ways to create a contract. We should really be looking at options or models for authors and then asking whether their doable on the publishing end. That's why I asked the particular questions I asked.

That's also probably why Julie's feeling a little put off. Some of the comments that don't strike you *or me * as off base are bound to hit harder when you see yourself on the receiving end. I assume she'll brush it off.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> This has been a much more civil, and interesting, discussion than I would have expected from the premise that self-publishers are slandering small presses to death.


There has been enough bloodshed lately. lol



WHDean said:


> _If_ you sold exclusive rights in perpetuity. The advance business doesn't mean as much to me as the rights. You could negotiate all kinds of arrangements. Not saying this contradicts what you said; it does open up options.


Yes, of course. Everything could be negotiated down to the size of page numbers, but the point still stands. Even for a short term agreement (let's say, a year), I'd want to see something solid, something that would lend an anticipation to what I might see when working with publisher A vs. publisher B.

Given the opportunity, I'd bet virtually anyone would sign with Simon and Schuster for a year's term with no advance if that meant rights reversion at day 366. But, if I go with a small press in the blind, I might want some kind of advance even for a limited time. It's not a matter of being unfair to the small press. It's a matter of being fair to myself for that first year. If it only sells a handful of copies, I could have just gone and hit upload myself.

The financial outlay is a consideration for production costs, but I've released 4 editions of my first book: hardcover, paperback, ebook, and audiobook. All of that was less than $2,000 (closer to $1,500, even with the voice acting, editing, proofing, setup costs, distribution costs, and all). And that's four editions; to just do the ebook would be editing only since I do my formatting. And I can't reveal exactly how much I spent on editing out of confidentiality with Lynn, but it wasn't some outlandish amount.

Since publishing is about risk vs. reward, all of it has to be considered. I don't think anyone here is saying small presses don't have a purpose (some were at first, possibly, but they've been educated, I think). It's more of a risk vs. reward, a time vs. benefit situation, and those without experience with a small press will not understand all the issues. It's also difficult to judge the risk or the reward without knowing what the small press usually accomplishes in terms of reward.


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

I'm just tired of repeating myself.  Six pages into the thread and people are still repeating the "publishers don't market" (JR TOMLIN), Amazon sales rank is the only thing that matters (Genieveclark), Publishers don't care/won't take on books they can't profit from (Phoenix, which strikes me as a really odd position to state in public for a person who is a publisher...I don't get it).  This thread was NEVER about publishers in general versus indie in general.  It was merely a request to stop assuming all publishers are the same and that writers are always better off doing it themselves.  That there is an option between New York and indie that is perfectly valid for a lot of writers.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> Edit: About 90% were also priced at $3.99 which kind of throws off your figures.
> 
> That comes to $2401 per book if you want to average it.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't WANT to make the investment in money, time and effort should go with a publisher, but I don't like the scaremongering tactic.


Personally, I think your numbers are great.

I wasn't trying for "scaremongering." I was just having fun with the numbers. I should have included some smiley faces with my post.

You have 5 books, and they are selling well. You apparently are one of those who do not need a publisher. There are lots out there just like you. 

Please accept my apology.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> I wasn't trying for "scaremongering."


I didn't take it that way, and I don't think most here would. I probably could spend $2,000 if I freelanced everything out and got good people, so it's not some ridiculous number. If you'd said some outlandish number, maybe. But not $2,000.


----------



## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm just tired of repeating myself. Six pages into the thread and people are still repeating the "publishers don't market" (JR TOMLIN), Amazon sales rank is the only thing that matters (Genieveclark), Publishers don't care/won't take on books they can't profit from (Phoenix, which strikes me as a really odd position to state in public for a person who is a publisher...I don't get it). This thread was NEVER about publishers in general versus indie in general. It was merely a request to stop assuming all publishers are the same and that writers are always better off doing it themselves. That there is an option between New York and indie that is perfectly valid for a lot of writers.


Wow, publishers don't market? Then they haven't met my publisher. Sheesh!


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> 1. Yes, publishers can do those things without my having to pay up front. I may also (as I have in the past) get stuck with a cover and price that kills sales and no way to change it. This is an old argument. There are advantages both ways. I am definitely not convinced one way or the other by what other writers who may or may not have a clue do.
> 
> 2. Sometimes, but my own experience is that the Brand is in the author. I am not going to be scared into going to going with a publisher by stories about what people say on forums.
> 
> ...


I noted that an author can do ALL of these things for their own books. I never meant to imply that an author had to have a publisher to attain these things.

As for my "track record," you can definitely flush me down the toilet with that one. I have none.

I suppose in the eyes of you and others who have said this, I am pretty much worthless as a publisher.

That's okay, though. I didn't participate in this thread to try to get clients. I just wanted to express my opinion.

I don't think anyone here is trying to "scare" authors into finding a publisher.

As a matter of fact, I am pretty certain Julie started the thread because of Indies trying to "scare" authors AWAY from publishers. We are just trying to show that there is another side.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm just tired of repeating myself. Six pages into the thread and people are still repeating the "publishers don't market" (JR TOMLIN), Amazon sales rank is the only thing that matters (Genieveclark), Publishers don't care/won't take on books they can't profit from (Phoenix, which strikes me as a really odd position to state in public for a person who is a publisher...I don't get it). This thread was NEVER about publishers in general versus indie in general. It was merely a request to stop assuming all publishers are the same and that writers are always better off doing it themselves. That there is an option between New York and indie that is perfectly valid for a lot of writers.


NO, Julie. Don't misquote me.

I said most small publishers don't market and like it or not many, many of them don't. I never said all. Heck, a lot of LARGE publishers don't do any real amount of marketing except for their catelogue.

You are denying the point you just made. Not all small publishers are the same and frankly quite a number of them are very bad--and they _do not _market. Others are mediocre. There are some VERY good ones, depending on your genre. I would certainly, if I wrote their genre, be happy as a clam to sign with Samhain for example.

As far as jumping on Pheonix about saying that publishers expect novels to make a profit, unless they happen to BE a not-for-profit organization, OF COURSE they do. She's right and so they should.



Asher MacDonald said:


> Is this $2000 figure reasonable? Covers cost anywhere from $25 to $300. Formatting isn't hard but I guess if you had to pay for it, maybe $100? Editing is something like $1500? That seems like a lot more than most people pay.


I don't think it's a reasonable figure. Sure there are a FEW who pay that much but I would say they are very much exceptions. The TOTAL I have paid is less than $2000 for all five books but that is with the fact that several of mine were backlist and already edited.



genevieveaclark said:


> This has been a much more civil, and interesting, discussion than I would have expected from the premise that self-publishers are slandering small presses to death.
> 
> I think it is true that many people, in their discussions of publishing, lump many dissimilar approaches together, and that is both inaccurate and unhelpful.
> 
> ...


Well, there have to be generalizations when you are discussing a lot of different companies. I don't know any way around that except to say "some do this or that". I don't think anyone in this discussion has called anyone a scumbag or a loser.

Small publishers aren't for everyone and some small publishers are much better than others. The same is true of authors; we are in very different situations with very different goals and needs. What I want, what my goals are and what I am willing to do may be very different that others.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

WHDean said:


> I'm not asking this in a dastardly way, but how much time do you figure you invested in getting the book from MSWord to Amazon? I don't mean money, I mean time. And, no, I'm not whining about how I don't have any, I'm talking opportunity cost. I'd rather be doing other things, say profitable or relaxing ones. I know it's tough to get straight answers to such questions because it's like asking how much time you _really _ spent on KB. But dig deep, real deep and ballpark a figure for me.


Sure thing.

From first draft to final manuscript: 600 hours for the first book; 100 hours for the second

Manuscript conversion for Amazon and B&N: 20 hours for the first book; 3 hours for the second

Cover work: 16 managerial hours for the first book; 4 hours for the second (this task was outsourced)

Promotion, KB time, blog posts, and fan mail: around 30 minutes/day for 300 days or about 150 hours combined for both novels

Total for the first book: 600hr + 20hr + 16hr + .5*150 = 711 hours

Total for the second book: 100hr + 3hr + 4hr + .5*150 = 182 hours

The big hurt was in the editing of the first book. I'd never written any fiction before, so there was a pretty huge learning curve to overcome. Accepting that I was a neophyte, I took all the initial critiques I received to heart. I decided that major revisions were required, and I spent another year forging all that wrought iron into steel. I believe that initial struggle made me a far better writer, so I don't regret a second of it, but it sure as heck was time consuming.

B.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> As for my "track record," you can definitely flush me down the toilet with that one. I have none.


And I think that's fine. You JUST got started, and you deserve some time to get started. No one should deny you that because we all started out at day 1 with zero sales, with no track record. Everybody gets a chance. Some (like me) get two.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Since my name was invoked, I'll stick my head in to say I haven't seen any issues with this thread other than a few sweeping generalizations.  And that I see no reason to lock it.  Which is not an invitation to give me one.

Off to download Harry Potter onto all my devices and apps...one down, many to go.

Betsy


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> anticipation to what I might see when working with publisher A vs. publisher B.... without knowing what the small press usually accomplishes in terms of reward.


I guess my point of comparison is far narrower. I'm looking at it as self-publish vs. small press exclusively. So I'm asking how much I leave on the table to get rid of the pain-in-the-a** factor and have a better result to boot. I'm also asking myself what sort of deal I can come up with and then how close a publisher can really get to it. Now I shop around for presses.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> I noted that an author can do ALL of these things for their own books. I never meant to imply that an author had to have a publisher to attain these things.
> 
> As for my "track record," you can definitely flush me down the toilet with that one. I have none.
> 
> ...


Lynn, I did not say that you are pretty much worthless as a publisher. You've just started. Yesh, every company has to start up and you at least have the background for it, unlike a lot of people who start publishing companies. Come on, you know that's the truth. It's no insult to you or certainly not intended that way. People start small publishing companies with *no* experience in or knowledge of publishing all the time. There is a risk with going with a company (in any industry) that doesn't have a track record, but if the owner does that changes the situation somewhat.

I wish you the BEST of luck with your new company.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

WHDean said:


> I guess my point of comparison is far narrower. I'm looking at it as self-publish vs. small press exclusively. So I'm asking how much I leave on the table to get rid of the pain-in-the-a** factor and have a better result to boot. I'm also asking myself what sort of deal I can come up with and then how close a publisher can really get to it. Now I shop around for presses.


Certainly, and I can understand that and relate, but on the other end. I've had a couple (and by couple, I mean two) of people ask me about publishing them. (ref: http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=77172.0;all) I have and still consider doing it on a small basis, and the writers who've approached me want nothing to do with the backend whatsoever. They want to write (and I would convince them to do some promotion, along with doing some of it myself), and they don't want to learn the huge array of skills necessary not only to do it but to do it very well, very effectively.

If I had an editing staff, I'd probably start it almost immediately; however, a dedicated and skilled editing staff for commercial fiction is a difficult thing to have. Lynn has a solid base with her staff, having provided services for a long time to great effect, and I feel she'll do well. Me, I'd have to develop a few relationships and get a model that works well.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> As for my "track record," you can definitely flush me down the toilet with that one. I have none.
> 
> I suppose in the eyes of you and others who have said this, I am pretty much worthless as a publisher.


Nonsense. I already know you are a &!%$ good manager, an ethical business person, and a fair lady holding a sword while on horseback. If you were seeking seed money for this venture, I would seriously consider investing. Whether you and I would be a good fit in an author-publisher relationship, I have no idea, but I've already seen Red Adept execute every step in the lead up process to publishing flawlessly. That gives me a ton of confidence. Plus Brian likes you.

B.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Plus Brian likes you.


Oh, yeah. Top-notch, the whole way.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> Lynn, I did not say that you are pretty much worthless as a publisher. You've just started. Yesh, every company has to start up and you at least have the background for it, unlike a lot of people who start publishing companies. Come on, you know that's the truth. It's no insult to you or certainly not intended that way. People start small publishing companies with *no* experience in or knowledge of publishing all the time. There is a risk with going with a company (in any industry) that doesn't have a track record, but if the owner does that changes the situation somewhat.
> 
> I wish you the BEST of luck with your new company.


I appreciate that. 

Thank you.

I guess everyone needs to start somewhere.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Sure thing.
> 
> From first draft to final manuscript: 600 hours for the first book; 100 hours for the second
> 
> ...


Now that's some impressive accounting. Do you also know how much the second book impacted the sales of the first? I mean did you notice some mutual reinforcement once the second one came out? I ask because I've heard of it; but if you've charted everything, you may know this.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> People start small publishing companies with *no* experience in or knowledge of publishing all the time.


*cough*PublishAmerica-iUniverse-etc.*cough*

Or... would that be just enough knowledge to... Ahem... "doin it rong".


----------



## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm just tired of repeating myself. Six pages into the thread and people are still repeating the "publishers don't market" (JR TOMLIN), Amazon sales rank is the only thing that matters (Genieveclark), Publishers don't care/won't take on books they can't profit from (Phoenix, which strikes me as a really odd position to state in public for a person who is a publisher...I don't get it). This thread was NEVER about publishers in general versus indie in general. It was merely a request to stop assuming all publishers are the same and that writers are always better off doing it themselves. That there is an option between New York and indie that is perfectly valid for a lot of writers.


But mixed in there is also a lot of useful information for those of us who haven't formed a solid opinion on the "right" way to publish. This thread has actually made it absolutely clear that there is no right way. What's right for one isn't right for another and we can trad publish, self publish, or both. It all depends on the individual person, their needs and capabilities, and the project at hand. There's room in the publishing world for everybody. I think a lot of the hurt comes from the broad brush used to paint a group of people - especially when a per centage of that group does their absolute best, all the time. It's kind of like the broad brush used to paint indies as all sloppy amateurs. There are small publishers out there who are just like many of us - bound and determined to do the best job possible, and they succeed at doing it. These publishers should be commended - they're in it WITH us. We've got to remember that some of us are in it for the money, some just love to write, and some just want to be validated by being trad published, and there's nothing wrong any of those things as long as they make you happy and that's what you want. Different strokes and all that...  
ETA: Wanted to clarify that I don't believe trad publishing is simply for validation. JK Rowling, Stephen King etc.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Nonsense. I already know you are a &!%$ good manager, an ethical business person, and a fair ladies with swords riding horses. If you were seeking seed money for this venture, I would seriously consider investing. Whether you and I would be a good fit in an author-publisher relationship, I have no idea, but I've already seen Red Adept execute every step in the lead up process to publishing flawlessly. That gives me a ton of confidence. Plus Brian likes you.
> 
> B.


Thank you. Such kind words. I think my face might be red.

(Of course, I can't be certain without checking in a mirror, as that would be a POV issue. Right, Brian?  )

And Brian only likes me between edits. During the editing process, he prints out a picture of me, hangs it on his wall, and throws darts at it.  That's only because he hasn't found a voodoo doll that works. 

Ouch! What was that?


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Now that's some impressive accounting. Do you also know how much the second book impacted the sales of the first? I mean did you notice some mutual reinforcement once the second one came out? I ask because I've heard of it; but if you've charted everything, you may know this.


Prior to the KDD this month (which resulted in absolute madness), about 60% of my book one sales occurred after the release of the second. I didn't even promote the second book much, and I did not pursue book bloggers at all. I followed Debora's guidance and created an Email list and vibrant Facebook page + blog, built up a bit of suspense before the launch, and managed to hit the Top 500 with the second book on the first day. Zongorythyms and word-of-mouth did the rest. The first book caught fire about two weeks later.

Based on my experiences, a small press with a strong Facebook presence, vibrant website, and a huge Email list would be intriguing. The big boys (minus the Amazon imprints) seem to struggle on this front. *hint hint*

B.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> huge array of skills necessary not only to do it but to *do it very well, very effectively*.
> 
> skilled editing staff for commercial fiction is a *difficult thing to have*.
> 
> get a *model * that works well.


The first is the key thing for me. I hate crap. I'm sure I could upload something tomorrow. But it would drive me nuts worrying that my book could have been formatted better or that some funky stuff was showing up; and I'd be chronically worried that I'd missed something. Better to let someone else look after it.

I think it'll be easier and harder to find editing staff in the next few years. Easier to get the specialized people being shed by presses and newspapers, harder to get generalists. People like me who migrate into it from the academy are going into government and industry because it pays more. If I don't get tenure teaching, I'm sticking with the government. I'm not going to wander in the wilderness looking for love.

The model is the other big thing. Like I said in the very early post, the three essential things (in my view) are the brand, the circle of people the benefit of having someone else handle the logistics.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> Thank you. Such kind words. I think my face might be red.
> 
> (Of course, I can't be certain without checking in a mirror, as that would be a POV issue. Right, Brian?  )
> 
> ...


LOL! You'd better be careful. You know how close to Louisiana I live. I hear you can get dolls as near as 60 miles from here. 

The second time editing went much smoother than the first. If the third (and beyond) time is as smooth as the second, I certainly can't complain.

I'm even trying to convince my inner "Artiste!" that getting a 16th edition Chicago Manual so I can learn more on my own. I hate when you have to take extra time out to explain some of the more obscure things, especially when I could spend the $40 and get rid of much of it on my own.

Of course, I've heard CMOS 16th is a rather gigantic tome, and it's not narrative non-fiction, not by far.

Anyway, anyway.. I'm standing in the crossfire. I must return to cover before I'm struck by a stray remark.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

So folks, I'm going to step out. It's at the stage of the conversation where I have nothing left to offer beyond "I'm happy. Buzz off."


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

genevieveaclark said:


> I know exactly when I blush, possibly from many years of doing it. There's a distinctive flushed feeling. I can tell you with 100% certainty: I don't need no stinkin' mirror.


Sorry for any confusion.

That was a bit of an inside joke.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Prior to the KDD this month (which resulted in absolute madness), about 60% of my book one sales occurred after the release of the second. I didn't even promote the second book much, and I did not pursue book bloggers at all. I followed Debora's guidance and created an Email list and vibrant Facebook page + blog, built up a bit of suspense before the launch, and managed to hit the Top 500 with the second book on the first day. Zongorythyms and word-of-mouth did the rest. The first book caught fire about two weeks later.
> 
> Based on my experiences, a small press with a strong Facebook presence, vibrant website, and a huge Email list would be intriguing. The big boys (minus the Amazon imprints) seem to struggle on this front. *hint hint*
> 
> B.


Interesting, thanks.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> Sorry for any confusion.
> 
> That was a bit of an inside joke.


Yes, Lynn was forced to educate me that, without special powers, my characters wouldn't really be able to see what other people were thinking, and they didn't have a camera following them around so they could see themselves doing all this awesome stuff. lol

That's what I get for reading Frank Herbert, I suppose. (Well, that's more warp-speed head-hopping, but my influences were showing...)



WHDean said:


> The first is the key thing for me. I hate crap. I'm sure I could upload something tomorrow. But it would drive me nuts worrying that my book could have been formatted better or that some funky stuff was showing up; and I'd be chronically worried that I'd missed something. Better to let someone else look after it.
> 
> I think it'll be easier and harder to find editing staff in the next few years. Easier to get the specialized people being shed by presses and newspapers, harder to get generalists. People like me who migrate into it from the academy are going into government and industry because it pays more. If I don't get tenure teaching, I'm sticking with the government. I'm not going to wander in the wilderness looking for love.
> 
> The model is the other big thing. Like I said in the very early post, the three essential things (in my view) are the brand, the circle of people the benefit of having someone else handle the logistics.


Agreed. And on the ebook formatting thing, there is no substitute for having a Kindle in hand and looking at the thing in the final .mobi format. There's no substitute. If it looks good on the hand-held, it will be fine on the PC and other devices. But, I had a great-looking book on the Kindle for PC app, got a Kindle for Christmas, and had to run screaming to fix the ebook. I attribute a number of my early returns to the chaotic formatting that ended up in the ebook. My returns have dropped to below 1% with the fixes. (Can't please everybody, right? lol)

I perhaps put too much on the promotion part, myself. It's because it's the only thing I really struggle with post-publication, and there aren't many affordable options for promotion. Part of that is the fact that promotion space is limited, and another part is that promotion is in such high demand. Everybody wants it. It's one of the hardest things to build.

Of course, my needs are rather the exception rather than the rule, per se. I like the backend of publishing, and I think I do it well. It's just a matter of that storefront... darn storefront...


----------



## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I would, BTW, like to thank *everyone* for taking a thread asking that folks remember that not all small presses are scumbags trying to rip off authors and turning it into a thread essentially saying we're all useless losers, go indie. I appreciate it. Really.


Um. That's funny, because I said,



David Adams said:


> I have found Krista and Julie to be exceptional people who give very clear and insightful appraisals whenever they get involved in anything, and also provide a healthy dose of "The Hard Truth" when it's necessary. Sometimes this is harder than people are willing to accept, but it is true none-the-less.
> 
> I think that if you did leave, Julie, the KB would be weakened by your departure and I for one want you to stay around.


_Ow...?_


----------



## Randirogue (Apr 25, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I would, BTW, like to thank everyone for taking a thread asking that folks remember that not all small presses are scumbags trying to rip off authors and turning it into a thread essentially saying we're all useless losers, go indie. I appreciate it. Really.
> 
> And no, I realize not everything has acted that way. But this thread was not a "Why you need a publisher and indies suck" thread. There was no reason to parade out indie sales numbers and list all the ways publishers such. This was a, "please remember that not all authors are you, and not everyone can do everything and be happy doing everything." But no, this just became another "If I can do it, anyone can! Go Indie!" thread.
> 
> ...


Ack! I'm only up to here reading this thread and I really, REALLY hope it doesn't get locked. Sure there is negativity in multiple directions in some of the posts on it, but between those there are HIGHLY interesting information that I'm mentally compiling since, even though I'm currently committed to self-publishing, I view this as an evolving endeavor that will likely morph in different ways based upon too many factors to list prudently right here.

I don't think I would have gotten a lot of this information on this thread IF participants (on all sides) weren't inspired (by pride, offense, curiosity, loyalty, anger, righteousness, defensiveness, honesty, annoyance, compassion...and so on) to post exactly as they had. Some (if not most) of those things seem to have been the result of the negativity felt by one side or another. And while I neither condone nor encourage stomping on any body's feelings (not even out of a sense of self-preservation or justice), I am certainly benefitting from the results BECAUSE I am learning a great deal by reading all the comments in this thread.

So, Julie, if you can bear it, I request that this thread NOT be locked (unless it gets personally vicious or loses all positive effects).

Thanks. ~_~ooo

[Edited for... um... Naughty, naughty typos. I'd like to blame my awkwardness of my iPad keyboard, but honestly, sometimes I just make mistakes.]


----------



## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Why would anyone need a small publisher? I am just curious. The only thing I can think is marketing.

Big name publisher I can understand. Because there is name recognition...


----------



## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> Why would anyone need a small publisher? I am just curious. The only thing I can think is marketing.
> 
> Big name publisher I can understand. Because there is name recognition...


Actually, I think small publishers serve an important role. I wouldn't be an indie writer today if it wasn't for the confidence I received and the lessons I learned from going through a small publisher. And lets face it, being an indie is a matter of...
1. Knowing how to do it.
2. Being willing to do it.
And there are writers out there who simply don't fit one or both of the above criteria. So small presses will probably always have a place, and will probably continue to be a way a lot of new writers enter the field.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I appreciate Julie's length post where she itemizes all of the things a good small publishing house SHOULD do. I admit I've raised an eyebrow at a few small presses because I really didn't fully understand what one COULD do. I think if my books fit into a strong small publisher's catalog, and we attacked the reading world as a team, that would be a very satisfying publishing experience for me. Right now, I'm still a newbie to fiction publishing, so I'm learning a great deal every day. Perhaps in another year or two, I will be better to identify where I can efficiently contribute to the publication and marketing of my books, and where I should put things into the hands of those with more experience.

There is nothing wrong with admitting what you can't do on your own in the publishing process. There's no secret bonus in the royalty checks for being a "true indie, 100%"  LOL. For my book, I knew I was not a graphic artist. I paid for my ebook and print covers. I don't regret it one bit. I paid money for ebook formatting software and learned how to work it as an investment into my overall business. I did not pay for outside editing because my budget for the book was full, so I used what little was left to pay for printed copies of the manuscript and a box of red pens. I used beta readers from my contacts in other writing realms that were free.

Now that the book has earned out in 6 months, which was my ultimate goal, the money coming in has paid for more covers of new books, and I've started a fund for runs of outside editing. I will still do my three printing runs (about $50 in printing costs) and slice and dice until the pages run red with editing blood, as it will hopefully bring down my outside editing costs. I've been in contact with a few copy editors and substantial editors, and all have said they can work with an author on budget if the initial product is as clean as possible. 

I love many of the other aspects of publishing, not just writing. Every author is unique, and posts like Julie's help answer the question of why an author who doesn't or can't go with a big publisher might consider a smaller press to help with the myriad of skills needed to publish both an ebook and a printed copy. And it's not just marketing... the product needs to be of great quality before that even matters, in my opinion. How you get a book to be the best quality it can be is a personal journey for each author, and not anyone else's decision.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> Why would anyone need a small publisher? I am just curious. The only thing I can think is marketing.
> 
> Big name publisher I can understand. Because there is name recognition...


If you are publishing something that is targetted at a niche market (such as the RPG stuff that Julie publishes) then a publisher who already knows the websites/stores/conventions/etc. can be very handy if they have the contacts to get your writing in the right hands to enable it to sell.

Yes, you could try to forge those contacts for yourself (and if you plan to publish a lot of material in a specific area then it might be a good idea to do so) - however, that would take a lot of time and effort and, since time is money, it may wind up costing you more in real terms than going with a publisher if it's just for a few titles.

Also, as was highlighted by the Canadian small press discussion earlier in this thread - name recognition still plays a part for a subset of readers, even if the reading public as a whole is unaware of the existence of a particular publishing company.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> Why would anyone need a small publisher? I am just curious. The only thing I can think is marketing.
> 
> Big name publisher I can understand. Because there is name recognition...


Even my publisher, who everyone loves to rip because it was started by a guy with a not-so-great reputation, has done wonders for me. I was able to do a book tour at B&N in several states. They hired my cover designer who is phenomenal, gave me marketing supplies, an ISBN, formatted my book, and pay me timely royalties (quarterly). I've never been required to pre-order or pay a dime for any services, so in my case they did everything and more a small press would do, including mark my book as returnable. I didn't get an advance though.
I could not have gotten into the Barnes and Nobles without their help.


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Even my publisher, who everyone loves to rip because it was started by a guy with a not-so-great reputation, has done wonders for me.


Actually, this is why people are wary of your "publisher" http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,108813.msg1637694.html#msg1637694

Short version: They are slated by every reputable watchdog, including the dubious honor of being one of only 12 publishers to make Writer Beware's "Two Thumbs Down" list. (More details in that link.)


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Yes, David, you come behind every post I make about them and point it out. Again, I've heard of *zero* complaints against Strategic.

They were only added because of the owners past problems. Is it possible he's change his business model with his new company? Yes.
Because he has. I'm confident they'll be taken off or the suit will be dropped.

Strategic was not mentioned in the original suit and was only added this last year, because it's owned by the same owner. They've not been found to do anything wrong. I've spoken to several authors who use them, and we've all received nothing but fantastic services. If this is how one of the "worst" acts, I can't imagine how much better a full service one with a great reputation would act.


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

So, he used to be a scammer and he's not anymore? 

LOL.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Prior to the KDD this month (which resulted in absolute madness), about 60% of my book one sales occurred after the release of the second. I didn't even promote the second book much, and I did not pursue book bloggers at all. I followed Debora's guidance and created an Email list and vibrant Facebook page + blog, built up a bit of suspense before the launch, and managed to hit the Top 500 with the second book on the first day. Zongorythyms and word-of-mouth did the rest. The first book caught fire about two weeks later.
> 
> Based on my experiences, a small press with a strong Facebook presence, vibrant website, and a huge Email list would be intriguing. The big boys (minus the Amazon imprints) seem to struggle on this front. *hint hint*
> 
> B.


Are you using a Google spreadsheet or something like that for the email list thing, or what are you doing for that? I could write a perl, php, or python script and host it somewhere, but I figure some free option is out there, and I'd rather do that.


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Yes, David, you come behind every post I make about them and point it out.


Actually, as you know quite well, I've posted about the widespread complaints against Strategic *twice*. Today, and the original post on Monday (linked to above).

I've seen you mention your publisher before, and I said nothing. What you do with your money is your own business. However, I felt you crossed the line by recommending your publisher. I don't want any more writers caught up in Robert Fletcher's web (a man with so many dodgy literary agencies and publishing companies that he has his own special sub-form on Absolute Write, trying to keep track of it all, and who is being sued for deceptive business practices by the Florida Attorney General - all information in the post I linked to above).


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Just an FYI - when I talk about working with small press, this isn't what I mean. <removes herself once more>


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

Rex Jameson said:


> Are you using a Google spreadsheet or something like that for the email list thing, or what are you doing for that? I could write a perl, php, or python script and host it somewhere, but I figure some free option is out there, and I'd rather do that.


MailChimp is an easy mailing list that's free for people who don't have a gazillion rabid fans like modwitch.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Strategic was not mentioned in the original suit and was only added this last year, because it's owned by the same owner.


Actually, they were named in the original suit, a copy of which can be found here:
http://myfloridalegal.com/webfiles.nsf/WF/MRAY-7VJLSY/$file/WritersLiteraryGuildComplaint.pdf


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Just an FYI - when I talk about working with small press, this isn't what I mean. <removes herself once more>


Sorry about the derail! It wasn't my intention to insinuate that small presses are generally like this. Indeed Strategic and Robert Fletcher are pretty much in a league of their own (along with PublishAmerica).


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh, I don't consider them a small publisher at all


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Rex Jameson said:


> Are you using a Google spreadsheet or something like that for the email list thing, or what are you doing for that? I could write a perl, php, or python script and host it somewhere, but I figure some free option is out there, and I'd rather do that.


Google groups for me. We've discussed this topic a few times and come to no good conclusions about which direction to go. When you get to Debora-level numbers, things get really complicated. My solution (at the moment) is just to create additional Google groups for every few hundred sign ups. Not ideal, but it won't snag spam filters and doesn't cost a cent.

PM me for more info.

B.


----------



## Linda Ash (Jul 13, 2010)

Hey, Julie, for what it's worth, I have a great deal of respect for you. You always bring a level head to discussions. I only pop onto the boards every once in a while, but when I see that you have something to say, I always read it.


----------



## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Full article here for those who want to read it.
> 
> The article was too long to post here, and it really isn't just a Kindleboards article anyway but more a general state of affairs. But to give the proverbial Cliff Notes version, as a publisher, I don't feel welcomed on book forums anymore.
> 
> ...


Most small presses can't survive unless the authors cover all the costs, that's the reality of the business, but I'm glad to see that they are the ones on the defensive now. As more and more self published ebooks become best sellers and even movies, even the big publishing companies will be hurting (in fact they are hurting already). Good for them, I don't feel sorry for them at all. They turned down a lot of good books thinking they would never make money so this is sweet revenge.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Actually, they were named in the original suit, a copy of which can be found here:
> http://myfloridalegal.com/webfiles.nsf/WF/MRAY-7VJLSY/$file/WritersLiteraryGuildComplaint.pdf


Actually, no only Robert was. If you read the press release, you can see clearly in the last paragraph it mentions he'd just gotten into publishing. Strategic was added later, because it was a new company he opened. Here is the press release regarding it directly From the Fl Gen attorney's website:

http://www.myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.nsf/newsreleases/0CA04161DA4BE29C8525762600550D21



> Attorney General Files Lawsuit Against "Literary Company"
> 
> TALLAHASSEE, FL - Attorney General Bill McCollum today announced that his office filed a lawsuit against a Boca Raton company that allegedly preyed on aspiring authors. According to the Attorney General's lawsuit, Writer's Literary Agency and owner Robert Fletcher used more than 20 websites and related companies to collect funds from potential authors, but misled victims about fees, costs, and promised results.
> 
> ...


It's based on 175 complaints against his earlier run companies. Again, because self-publishing was new in 2001, he charged (supposedly, some clients) for services, just like createspace and other companies do. I think these early authors had unrealistic expectations.

Again, my contract has everything spelled out and they did a fantastic job. I'm not going to lie and slam them just because others do. They did a great job by me and my book and thousands of other authors. Last year, Strategic did over 3 million in sales and has several satisified authors. In America you are innocent until proven guilty, except on certain forums, of course. 
I in no way said others should use them, I just stated the facts that they did a great job and are continuing to do a great job for me and other authors I've met through Strategic.

Since nothing has happened in the last two years, I'm confident the suit will be dropped and Strategic will continue to do a wonderful job for me and the rest of its authors.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Oh, I don't consider them a small publisher at all


It shows one of the reasons why you should be careful with small publishers. If I talk to St. Martins I know their rep. I still have to watch for a bad contract, but I know what I'm dealing with. With most small publishers, I don't.

Mind you, MOST small publishers are NOT scammers. But a few are. A whole lot aren't very competent. (Sorry that this statement makes some people mad but I consider it the absolute truth)

That doesn't mean there aren't some who do a very good job, especially with certain niche markets. There are, but I do believe they're in the minority. It is simply too easy for someone who hasn't a clue to start one. Again, this doesn't mean all new publishers are bad. If it is started by someone with the knowledge and resources to build a good publishing company that's fine, but there are an awful lot of people who look at a small publishing company as some sort of get-rich-scheme.

It is worthwhile to look very carefully if a small publisher is something you want to consider. And if you don't want to do the investment in the work to get the work out there or feel better with a publisher's name on the spine, then that's a valid way to go. Nothing wrong with that as long as you make the decision knowing what's involved and what to look for. But one thing that signing with pretty much _any_ publisher does NOT mean is that you don't have to do any marketing. Even the biggies do amazingly little marketing for you.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Actually, no only Robert was. If you read the press release, you can see clearly in the last paragraph it mentions he'd just gotten into publishing. Strategic was added later, because it was a new company he opened. Here is the press release regarding it directly From the Fl Gen attorney's website:
> 
> http://www.myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.nsf/newsreleases/0CA04161DA4BE29C8525762600550D21


Actually, no. Did you read the suit filed at the link I provided? Pertinent pages are 1, 9 and 15 if you don't want to wade through the entire 27-page document. Or simply enter "Eloquent" (part of the AEG group) in the search field. Eloquent and AEG are called out specifically.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> *I in no way said others should use them*, I just stated the facts that they did a great job and are continuing to do a great job for me and other authors I've met through Strategic.


And yes, you did say just that:

_Frankly, from my experience, I would recommend them..._

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,108813.msg1637597.html#msg1637597


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> And yes, you did say just that:
> 
> _Frankly, from my experience, I would recommend them..._
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,108813.msg1637597.html#msg1637597


From my experience, they are doing a great job. With as many hardcovers as they've sold for me through bookstores, I've had several small press publishers tell me that my book would be considered a bestseller (for them) and they can't offer me what I'm now getting.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> It is worthwhile to look very carefully if a small publisher is something you want to consider. And if you don't want to do the investment in the work to get the work out there or feel better with a publisher's name on the spine, then that's a valid way to go. Nothing wrong with that as long as you make the decision knowing what's involved and what to look for.


I'd argue that looking into any venture is something to carefully look into 



> But one thing that signing with pretty much _any_ publisher does NOT mean is that you don't have to do any marketing. Even the biggies do amazingly little marketing for you.


Yup. Like I said before, even if they do everything for you, often you the author still need to show up! Penguin might be throwing an across-Canada tour for Rob Sawyer, but he still needs to show up at each of those cities! And he has to be his friendly self. When people think about marketing, they think passive. But, active is important, too, and all the money in the world doesn't replace the author sometimes having to show up.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> I'd argue that looking into any venture is something to carefully look into


So would I. And I'd say due diligence demands any venture that entails paying a percentage of revenue for the next fifty years in exchange for a one time service demands even more scrutiny.


----------



## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Yup. Like I said before, even if they do everything for you, often you the author still need to show up!


You mean... I'd have to leave my mum's armoured basement, which is completely impregnable to missiles, gunfire, thermobaric devices and vagina?

Dealbreaker. DEALBREAKER.

Did you know that there is a massive ball of _carcenogenic fire_ burning out there?! I call it the daystar and it burns us, preciousssss...

I WILL NEVER DO THIS. I've read Wool, I know what happens to people who leave the Silo...


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> So would I. And I'd say due diligence demands any venture that entails paying a percentage of revenue for the next fifty years in exchange for a one time service demands even more scrutiny.


I've never signed a deal like this. Or, you know, been offered one even remotely like this. Mine all have time limits, plus an early exist strategy in case of disagreement post-publication.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> I've never signed a deal like this. Or, you know, been offered one even remotely like this. Mine all have time limits, plus an early exist strategy in case of disagreement post-publication.


Good. Neither have I. So neither one of us had to exercise that level of due diligence.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Good. Neither have I. So neither one of us had to exercise that level of due diligence.


Sometimes you use a logic train that doesn't let me on board...


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Sometimes you use a logic train that doesn't let me on board...


... lol


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Sometimes you use a logic train that doesn't let me on board...


Agree.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I believe that's the first time we've agreed on anything...


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I believe that's the first time we've agreed on anything...


I agreed with him a minute ago: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,109129.msg1642215.html#msg1642215

This is a strange turn of events, an unfortunate happening. I sense a disturbance in the force.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

It's because I got drunk and published erotica. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HISTORY GRADUATES TRY NEW THINGS.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'd argue that looking into any venture is something to carefully look into


That's true but unfortunately a lot of people who are new to this business--or to the traditional part of it--think that just calling yourself a publisher means something. Speaking from sad personal experience, I can say that sometimes we authors are as dumb as dirt.

Edit: Sometimes it is also difficult to find out how well their previous publications have done or how much support they gave their authors. And there is the fact that there are companies that LOOK good but are on the brink of bankruptcy or having internal struggles just waiting to cause mayhem. I suspect we both remember some horror stories. Finding a good publisher when you're new can really be a minefield.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I've never signed a deal like this. Or, you know, been offered one even remotely like this. Mine all have time limits, plus an early exist strategy in case of disagreement post-publication.


None quite say that I don't think, but there are some out there that have that effect through counting relatively small numbers of digital sales as still being 'in print'. Contracts are another subject though. There is nothing like a good IP lawyer to let you know what the gobbledegook really means.

I think most of us know a few authors who are struggling for one reason or another to get back their publishing rights. I had good advice and had no difficulty getting mine, but even smart people have been known to sign bad contracts.

This is an area where, in my experience, you are better off with a small publisher. Some of the big publishers have contracts that are positively draconian in my opinion.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> This is an area where, in my experience, you are better off with a small publisher. Some of the big publishers have contracts that are positively draconian in my opinion.


When the lawyer and I were chatting about this (was there to see him about other stuff), we were talking about contract language and he tried to convince me to stop writing and become a lawyer. lol I told him refusing to sign bad contracts is just a hobby of mine


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Seeing as it's kinda my fault for directing the conversation towards publishers on the bad end of the spectrum, let me counterbalance that with one small publisher who I think is doing everything right: Angry Robot.

They pay great royalties to their authors, they have author-friendly contracts, they have a cool webstore, they don't do DRM, they don't do territory restrictions, they price really competitively, they have a clever grasp of social media, they are innovative (offer bundles, subscriptions, single shorts), they produce _beautiful_ books, they aren't wedded to the old ways, and they have a sense of humor (their genre is "SF/F & WTF"!).

I'm singling them out because I don't _think_ anyone here has an interest in them, so we can look at them pretty dispassionately. I like everything about this company.

If you want to check them out, their site is here: http://angryrobotbooks.com/

And their store is here: http://www.angryrobotstore.com/

Oh, and they have some of the best covers in the business, their authors _love_ them, and I've never heard a bad word spoken about them.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I *heart* Angry Robot


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> I didn't take it that way, and I don't think most here would. I probably could spend $2,000 if I freelanced everything out and got good people, so it's not some ridiculous number. If you'd said some outlandish number, maybe. But not $2,000.


Gee, funny to see this thread still buzzing and has become a lush garden of disinformation about small publishers.

Have just gotten off the phone re: sending copies to the London Book Fair for foreign rights sales. Don't mean to burst anyone's bubble but a good publisher, large or small, spends WAAAAY more than the figures above [ not to pick on Brian, who's a great fellow on these threads].

The service, and spending, spans the first years of the book's life out there. Places where most of the titles which just show up on Kindle/Nook/Smashwords haven't gone and never will go. --- And Mr. O'Brien says nonchalantly in a post somewhere in this discussion that publishers do a "one time service" --- ? Not sure where fuzzy thinking comes from. ...Are your titles going to be at the London Book Fair, O'Brien?


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

BRONZEAGE said:


> Are your titles going to be at the London Book Fair, O'Brien?


Mine aren't. I'm happy with my sales anyway. There are plenty of ways to measure success that don't have anything to do with the London Book Fair.


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Mine aren't. I'm happy with my sales anyway. There are plenty of ways to measure success that don't have anything to do with the London Book Fair.


Michael W., this morning another thread discusses how to penetrate foreign markets and whether to have a title translated, and how much will that cost, and etcetcetc.

The point of paying the money to be at Frankfurt, and the London Fairs, or the new fair in China with its huge potential audience is to penetrate the market. It's about marketing and reaching the audience. Yes, a title might be selling well as an ebook in the States. There are other markets out there. Publishers assist in valuable ways with getting into those markets and in ways a DIY author cannot access.

*Much of the discussion on this thread reminds me of the old album about the Land Of Point (by Harry Nilsson), where the flatlanders cannot see anything outside of their 2-dimensional world. *


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

That is true, but it's also important to remember that different people measure their success in different ways. Small presses can be one path to success for some people. I've never signed with a small press, but I can think of lots of valid reasons why someone might.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> That is true, but it's also important to remember that different people measure their success in different ways. Small presses can be one path to success for some people. I've never signed with a small press, but I can think of lots of valid reasons why someone might.


That's what I tried to do in this thread


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

BRONZEAGE said:


> *Much of the discussion on this thread reminds me of the old album about the Land Of Point (by Harry Nilsson), where the flatlanders cannot see anything outside of their 2-dimensional world. *


This "flatlander" will be releasing his first foreign language edition shortly. No upfront costs, instead sharing royalties. Several more in the works.


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

dgaughran said:


> This "flatlander" will be releasing his first foreign language edition shortly. No upfront costs, instead sharing royalties. Several more in the works.


Good luck with it. I'd love to read _Valparaiso _ but don't actually own an ereader.... Any print copies?

ETA : Yes, found it in print. Noted also a pirate copy offered at excess $45.? Wish Amazon would weed out those offers before those get posted on product pages.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Have just gotten off the phone re: sending copies to the London Book Fair for foreign rights sales. Don't mean to burst anyone's bubble but a good publisher, large or small, spends WAAAAY more than the figures above [ not to pick on Brian, who's a great fellow on these threads].
> 
> The service, and spending, spans the first years of the book's life out there. Places where most of the titles which just show up on Kindle/Nook/Smashwords haven't gone and never will go. --- And Mr. O'Brien says nonchalantly in a post somewhere in this discussion that publishers do a "one time service" --- ? Not sure where fuzzy thinking comes from. ...Are your titles going to be at the London Book Fair, O'Brien?


Alas, I won't be joining my betters at London. I seriously doubt they would have me. I wish you the best at the fair, and let's hope those books you shipped sell very well in the foreign rights market. However, I'd note that my existence or attendance at the fair has no bearing on the issue. Can we just stipulate I am not in your league?

However, I will stand by my claim that, "due diligence demands any venture that entails paying a percentage of revenue for the next fifty years in exchange for a one time service demands even more scrutiny."

That is a general statement that would apply to any venture. If a publisher falls under those parameters, then it applies to the publisher. It would likewise apply to an editor, cover artist, landlord, doctor, landscaper, Cowboy Bob, or RinTinTin. (Can we agree to exclude matrimony?)

But, given the additional information you provide about a publisher's service spanning the first few years of a book's life, I would add that due diligence demands any venture that entails paying a percentage of revenue for the next fifty years in exchange for a few years service demands even more scrutiny.


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

O'Brien, your premises continue to be flawed.

What fifty years?  Most contracts don't call for fifty years license on the publication rights -- Are you confusing the grant of license for publication with a (specious) term of years on copyright?


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Most don't cover fifty years? Does that mean some do? Perhaps that would open up an avenue for due diligence. How do they handle it in London?


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Most don't cover fifty years? Does that mean some do? Perhaps that would open up an avenue for due diligence. How do they handle it in London?


You're welcome to read about the London Book Fair on its website.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

BRONZEAGE said:


> *Much of the discussion on this thread reminds me of the old album about the Land Of Point (by Harry Nilsson), where the flatlanders cannot see anything outside of their 2-dimensional world. *


It's been years, but are you sure that's right? I thought the "point" was that conformity was not necessary, that being accepting was better.. Perhaps you're confusing that with Flatland by Edwin Abbott Abbott? Although, neither really applie here, imho.


----------



## tensen (May 17, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> Is this $2000 figure reasonable? Covers cost anywhere from $25 to $300. Formatting isn't hard but I guess if you had to pay for it, maybe $100? Editing is something like $1500? That seems like a lot more than most people pay.


You can go to much more for covers if you want.

For instance I absolutely love the Dan Dos Santos covers. http://www.dandossantos.com/gallery.htm

He doesn't change anywhere in that range.

Of course if he did, I'd probably try and get him to do every cover for me.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

My cover artist charges 500 dollars per cover when he freelances outside of traditional publishers. Cover art can vary wildly. We've seen artists discussed on these forums that can charge thousands, depending on how long they feel it will take to deliver the illustrated cover.

For most self-publishers, this kind of artist is out of the range of our budgets, but traditional publishers do use them.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

There's no way that I could afford the art for my new trad novel: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,109134.msg1642801.html#msg1642801 I could not have afforded that if I was self-publishing.

But that doesn't mean I can't have a really great cover for my DIY serial, though: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,109134.msg1642244.html#msg1642244

I think there is a middle-ground. Rex's covers are stellar. If Rex were to go with a publisher (let's say), I'd argue that one of the many things they'd need to show in their value-added is how they can provide art that's even more steller than what he already has. Obviously, there's a lot more to publishers than cover art, but let's be honest: that is something we do talk about.

Now, sure, I wouldn't turn down a Baen contract for military SF even if they gave me one of their signature crazy covers. That's their brand, really: crazy covers, lots of action.

But would I stop working with a publisher who was unable to understand the basics of a subgenre's cover conventions? You bet.


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

Monique said:


> Perhaps you're confusing that with Flatland by Edwin Abbott Abbott?


http://www.amazon.com/Point-Deluxe-Packaging-Harry-Nilsson/dp/B000077SX4


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> I perhaps put too much on the promotion part, myself. It's because it's the only thing I really struggle with post-publication, and there aren't many affordable options for promotion. Part of that is the fact that promotion space is limited, and another part is that promotion is in such high demand. Everybody wants it. It's one of the hardest things to build.


I have to admit I'm skeptical about the whole promotion business. I'm almost inclined to agree with Konrath that there's too much lot of luck involved to bother burning money on marketing.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

BRONZEAGE said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Point-Deluxe-Packaging-Harry-Nilsson/dp/B000077SX4


Yes, I know the album and animated film, but as far as I remember they don't have anything to do with flatland or 2-dimensions. Am I misremembering?


----------



## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

Flatland was totally another book.


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

jnfr said:


> Flatland was totally another book.


Whatever -- don't have time to look it up. I definitely don't linger here.

The point is the danger of taking potshots at something one doesn't understand, and has not experienced. The assumption that reality conforms overall to your corner of it.

Like guessing wildly that the term of an author contract is fifty years.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Maybe they can clear up that Flatland question in London?


----------



## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Zelah Meyer said:


> If you are publishing something that is targetted at a niche market (such as the RPG stuff that Julie publishes) then a publisher who already knows the websites/stores/conventions/etc. can be very handy if they have the contacts to get your writing in the right hands to enable it to sell.
> Yes, you could try to forge those contacts for yourself (and if you plan to publish a lot of material in a specific area then it might be a good idea to do so) - however, that would take a lot of time and effort and, since time is money, it may wind up costing you more in real terms than going with a publisher if it's just for a few titles.
> Also, as was highlighted by the Canadian small press discussion earlier in this thread - name recognition still plays a part for a subset of readers, even if the reading public as a whole is unaware of the existence of a particular publishing company.


OK Zelah and other authors you convinced me. Thanks. So it does help with marketing. Where do you find them, say for example for my nonfiction books in self-help and spiritual series Do these small publishers take already published books with amazon and CS?? Excuse my ignorance. Thanks.


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Maybe they can clear up that Flatland question in London?


How droll. If you had bothered to adjust your limited frame of reference by looking at that website, you would know that it is *the titles* that travel to the London Book Fair with experienced reps who negotiate foreign rights sales --- not the author nor small publisher.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

_'You see,' said my Teacher, 'how little your words have done. So far as the Monarch understand them at all, he accepts them as his own - for he cannot conceive of any other except himself - and plumes himself upon the variety of Its Thought as an instance of creative Power. Let us leave this God of Pointland to the ignorant fruition of his omnipresence and omniscience: nothing that you or I can do can rescue him from his self-satisfaction.'_ - the Sphere from Abbott's version

http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/20.html

B.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> How droll. If you had bothered to adjust your limited frame of reference by looking at that website, you would know that it is the titles that travel to the London Book Fair with experienced reps who negotiate foreign rights sales --- not the author nor small publisher.


That is droll. What fun is a fair if you can't even watch the clowns?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> Do these small publishers take already published books with amazon and CS??


This is a great question.

Very few small presses take previously-published titles. This tends to confuse people because Dean Wesley Smith argues to self-publish and then submit to publishers. He is, however, talking about huge, giant publishers (aka Penguin), and not small presses like Mundania (one of mine).

This is also a problem with short stories that people don't generally realize. If you put a story on your blog or self-publish it, it has already been previously published. Even if you take it down off your blog, the archives of the internet still have it. If you manage to sell it, it will be reprint rights, which are less money (sometimes, no money).

Now, I'm a huge supporter of reprint rights, as I make a bit of money off them. I also have enough titles out that reprints generally work like advertising for me, without having to pay for it. My work speaks for itself and advertises in that manner.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> OK Zelah and other authors you convinced me. Thanks. So it does help with marketing. Where do you find them, say for example for my nonfiction books in self-help and spiritual series Do these small publishers take already published books with amazon and CS?? Excuse my ignorance. Thanks.


I think the key to finding a niche publisher would be to do your market research. Get Googling and look for communities online based around such topics & ask on a forum which small publishers they trust. Also, look at which publishers place adverts on those community sites and other sites relating to your niche. Look for trade shows such as Mind, Body & Spirit and see who the exhibitors are (you can usually look this up online in the publicity for the show). I know there is at least one small publisher (or imprint of a larger publisher, I'm not sure which) who regularly takes a stand selling books at the London show. Look at the adverts in magazines for your niche & see which publishers are placing ones for books.

If you investigate who is putting adverts for books (and the books themselves) in front of your target market, then that will tell you who your target publishers are. Good luck.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Sometimes, with non-fiction, self-publishing is the way to go. It's been like that for, oh, at least a decade and maybe longer. If you're someone who does a lot of talks or kiosks at trade shows, you really don't need a publisher.


----------

