# Debut author turned down 6 figures, 3 books New York publishing deal to self-pub



## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

http://brennaaubrey.net/2013/12/08/in-which-i-explain-why-i-turned-down-a-three-book-new-york-print-deal-to-self-publish/

It peaked in the low 100s on the Kindle Store on December 12, 2013, judging from this blog post (maybe even lower)

http://theseasonforromance.com/wordpress/2013/12/interview-giveaway-at-any-price-by-brenna-aubrey/



> I was also lucky enough to have Brenna by for a virtual sit-down and here it is.
> 
> **P.S. AT ANY PRICE is currently *#137 in the Kindle store*. Woot!!!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

If I had a friend who got offered a million dollars for three books, one already written, and she hadn't self-published before, I'd tell her to take the money and start writing two more books. It's a million dollars. Sure, maybe you'd get more self-publishing. Totally possible. But it's a million dollars!

If anyone offered me an advance like that, I'd start writing up those three books real fast. 

I apologize for being very stupid. I thought it was a million dollars. If it was more like 100,000, that's a different story.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Good for the author.  It was likely a wise move, depending on what was in her contract.  I'm guessing she didn't find something too terribly palatable in there.  Or maybe she just sees the writing on the wall.

Yes, a million bucks is great right now, but if there was something restricting her from writing more or publishing however she wanted with any books that weren't in the three-book deal, I'm not sure a million would be worth it.  It all depends on what was in that contract.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day.  Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


You won't be called those names over here! Congratulations!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Yo! McAfee bombs out on AW! It's advertising related. A sign of the old guard's despair?



I need a devil smiley. Betsy, why don't we have a devil smiley?


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day. Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


I defended you, Brenna!


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

The book looks super cute, and like it's doing fantastic. 

I'd love to get an offer and refuse it!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Brenna said:


> It wasn't a million dollars. LOL. Six figures, not seven.


GAHHHH I hate myself! I always get that wrong. I take back my comment then. I will go sit in the corner being stupid.  

This is why I get no offers, LOL.

EDIT: Also, hello Brenna! Now I feel double stupid for talking about a member. You are one of us. I will have your back from now on, LOL.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

This is why I hang out here where it's nice and quiet and one can get opinions and advice without being shouted at, down and over.
I won't bother checking that thread out (not starting the New Year with negativity) but, in the end, I'd think the contents of the contract are what clinches it, not a wild guess on current trends.

Welcome, Brenna and congratulations for such a huge event, no matter which way it shakes out.


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## mariehallwrites (Mar 14, 2013)

I know Brenna *HI HUN*  She didn't just do this with no thought behind it, she made a very difficult choice and weighed the pros and the cons. She did what felt right for her, I do not understand why anyone would give her flack over it (not talking about anyone here, but I read those comments on absolute write and I got a little steamed from it ) 

I support your decision to do what felt right to you girly.


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## Zoe York (May 12, 2013)

I do think that there's good reason to work with publishers, but I can't think of any for a debut author. I spent months at AW, and quietly realized that I needed to find places online that supported self-publishing, because it seemed like a really good thing. That's what I learned from the hotbed of SPing Sucks. 

I'm not going to read the thread. Not the best way to start the new year. 

Brenna, you rock.


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## AmberDa1 (Jul 23, 2012)

Just read your blog post, Brenna and it's inspiring. Congratulations and glad you made this decision. The book sounds great!


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day. Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


This bodes well. My career positively took off after being called nasty things on that site.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Brenna said:


> Haha Mimi, no worries.  Hello to you. I forgive you for kicking my *ss on the NA top 100 with your $#%#^ boxed set.  hehe (I'm Team Peaches btw)


Hey, thanks! Good luck with your whole trilogy. I did the boxed set a bit earlier than some might, so it would be easier to give as a Christmas gift. Really, you never know. Self-publishing is full of tough choices every day, but it sounds like you made the right one.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> This bodes well. My career positively took off after being called nasty things on that site.


I linked to a blog post of yours over there one time. There were some colorful comments.


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## horse_girl (Apr 9, 2010)

@ Brenna --Congratulations! I turned down a horrible contract from a small pub a few years ago, but nothing with an advance. The rights grab was the killer there. None of mine have done as well as yours in the paid store, but I've been satisfied self-publishing. Who knows--continue doing well and you may end up with a better offer. 

As for AW, I quit going there years ago too. Once I found KB, I knew where I belonged.



Hugh Howey said:


> The understatement is strong with this one.


ROFL


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

romanceauthor said:


> I defended you, Brenna!


It won't do any good. They refuse to believe anything anyone self-publishing says. You could have video and they wouldn't buy it.

Brenna - Congratulations. I wish more authors said no to crappy contracts.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> It won't do any good. They refuse to believe anything anyone self-publishing says. You could have video and they wouldn't buy it.
> 
> Brenna - Congratulations. I wish more authors said no to crappy contracts.


lol, Jana. I had to laugh at their responses to your posts about the author who got a six figure deal and no bookstore placement. I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about. If not, I know someone else who had the same situation. It floors me that they are so quick to assume you or your friend are just lying. Because seriously, why would anyone lie about that?


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## valeriechase (Nov 22, 2013)

Brenna, good for you for following your heart and intuition! I, for one, found your story incredibly inspiring and empowering!

I've lurked on AW for a long time and have learned a lot from it, but that thread made me super mad and I wanted to hulk-smash everything. I just found the tone really disrespectful and condescending. Ugh.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day. Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


Don't even go there. Let them all wallow in their ignorance. They don't deserve to be enlightened.


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## AriadneW (Feb 16, 2013)

Congratulations, Brenna! You have to do what you think is best and right for you, and only you are going to know what that is. For what it's worth, I think it's awesome.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Many congrats on your success, Brenna!


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## angel_graham (Mar 16, 2011)

I <3you Breanna.  You made a business decision.  Only you know all the details.  Leave AW to rot in itself.  It is not worth your worry or time.

Hugh Howey...from your mouth...May Breanna be touched with some of your success.  

Eta.  Typos.  Too tired.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Nice call, Brenna, you are clearly a brave young lady.

As far as "that cesspool over there," I was banned after three days. 

Imagine that.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

All that hard work, zero control over your property, and the inability to do anything without written permission from the NY gods -- for a whopping 10%! Why, you'd be nuts to turn that down!


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I remember back when I thought a 3-book deal must be three times better than a 1-book deal. Right?

Yikes. Wrong.

Aspiring authors are so desperate for a deal that getting three of them at once feels like an embarrassment of riches. But look at the yearly earnings for a $100,000 deal for three books. That's going to be broken down into 6 or 9 payments (on signing, on publication, possibly on paperback publication). And that'll be over a 4 or 5 year period. (A year before the book publishes, six month delay before you're paid anything at all, a year between books, a delay on that final payment).

After the agent gets their cut, you're at $85,000. Over 5 years, that's $17,000 a year. This is why traditionally published authors teach creative writing. No shame at all in getting a publishing offer from a major publisher, and no shame in getting a 6-figure offer or a 3-book deal, but until you've seen it play out or you really sit down and go through the schedule of payments, it's hard to appreciate how much work you'll be doing for such little pay.

To hear some people's interpretation of an offer like this, the author suddenly has $100,000 in the bank. And now they're making that as an annual salary. And they are on endcaps and being sent around on 10-city book tours and being interviewed on NPR. Not likely.

Good on Brenna for doing her research, talking to actual writers working in the trenches, and realizing she and her work are worth far more than this. And pity the unpublished who would fall over themselves to give up 5 years of their creative lives for $17,000 annually, only to be dropped like a rock at the end of that time.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

Congrats and I hope it works out. Personally I'm amazed that anyone would have the courage to turn down such a deal. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't.

Cheers, Greg.


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## ScriptLand (Feb 9, 2013)

I'd wish you good luck, but it sounds like you'll make your own  

I've seen how small pub houses work. Can't speak to the Big Boys, but what Jana said in her posts on AW are in line with what I saw.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> lol, Jana. I had to laugh at their responses to your posts about the author who got a six figure deal and no bookstore placement. I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about. If not, I know someone else who had the same situation. It floors me that they are so quick to assume you or your friend are just lying. Because seriously, why would anyone lie about that?


I actually have two friends that happened to and I've known both for a decade. Neither are liars or drama queens and both are huge sellers. People don't want to believe trad is screwed up because they still want to be the next _____. Whatever. While others believe in fiction, we can all count our fiction dollars.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Yo Brenna. Six figures, spread out over a bunch of years for three novels...methinks you can make that and more with a little effort and some crazy writing chops. I mean, if it was $150K, say, or $200, whatever, divide by what you'll make doing this intelligently...no contest.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

And let's not forget that there's a good chance her first book might not have seen the light of day for like 2 years...that's how long the typical industry backlog can be.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm about to get blasted over there.  

And now the "Self Published authors are not Indie's' argument is about to unfold.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

It's hard to imagine a level of ignorance exceeding that on Absolute Write. Arguments are easier to win, I guess, when you just ignore reality. 

I'm not sure exactly what "six figures" means, but if we're talking about $100k, I'd bet that same 100k she makes more self-publishing, a lot more. It's non-compete nonsense that would be the biggest deterrent to me as well. It's one thing to decide how deploy an individual work and quite another to let it dictate what else you can do. 

Congratulations on ignoring the noise and making a good decision.


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## EllenWaite (Dec 4, 2013)

Way to go, Brenna!

I know we're not supposed to bash AW here, but... count me among the haters. They banned me for like no reason, lol. I know I'm not the only one. Let 'em rot. The only good thing that came from my time there was hearing someone mention this other, useful forum called the Kboards...


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## Revolution (Sep 17, 2012)

EllenWaite said:


> Way to go, Brenna!
> 
> I know we're not supposed to bash AW here, but... count me among the haters. They banned me for like no reason, lol. I know I'm not the only one. Let 'em rot. The only good thing that came from my time there was hearing someone mention this other, useful forum called the Kboards...


You probably weren't pretentious enough.


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## EllenWaite (Dec 4, 2013)

Revolution said:


> You probably weren't pretentious enough.


Haha, perhaps. That and I couldn't stay away from that scummy little politics and current events section they have over there.

Protip: If you want to get banned from AW, post either in the P&CE section or the self-pub section and disagree with the prevailing opinions. Works like a charm!


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> I remember back when I thought a 3-book deal must be three times better than a 1-book deal. Right?
> 
> Yikes. Wrong.
> 
> ...


^ Yes, yes, yes. I just want to print this up as a pamphlet and hand this out to all new aspiring authors.

Way to go, Brenna, for making an informed decision. And having the guts to do it. *Applause*


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

Brenna said:


> It wasn't a million dollars. LOL. Six figures, not seven.


Right. And depending on how many six figures, that's more like a middling than a generous advance for three books.

Considering that, and the NC and the long schedule, I think you made the right decision. Congratulations and best of luck!


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Good luck, Brenna.

I'd be interested in hearing how you go self-publishing.

It's very interesting to see the number of authors who are either:
- walking away from their existing trad publishers, in whole or in part.
- walking away from offers on the table from trad publishers, due to their tightening of contract conditions.
- shaking their heads and not even bothering with trad pubs in the first place.

I think they're really shooting themselves in the foot (feet?). In the face of change, they're getting more conservative instead of adapting... reminds me of the music industry. We all know how well that worked out for them.

I think the end effect is that they'll miss out on a lot of new talent.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

Good for you, Brenna!  Fantastic post and you absolutely made the right choice!  It is awesome how sometimes when you take this sort of a risk, really amazing things happen.  You're an inspiration and I am so glad you shared your story!  Congrats!


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Congratulations Brenna on having the offers -- and having the guts to walk away.

I've not read At Any Price yet but, as soon as I read the blurb, I recommended it to a friend - which I very rarely do with books but it sounded so awesome


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## Bec (Aug 24, 2012)

Congrats on your success so far, Brenna. 

I admit to reading some of the thread at AbsoluteWrite before I read your blog post. Someone criticised the language and writing manner of your post, but I found myself enjoying it... and wondering if the critical AW poster and I were reading the same blog...

Haters gonna hate, I suppose they say.

Good luck with everything!


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## 71089 (Jul 12, 2013)

DELETED BECAUSE OF TOS CHANGE


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## 71089 (Jul 12, 2013)

Bec A said:


> Haters gonna hate, I suppose they say.


Haters gonna be jealous is more like it


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Good for you, Brenna! I hope it works out well! Don't get too bent up over the other forum. They have a tendency toward selective hearing (reading). They only take the bits they think they can try to eat you alive over and ignore all the rest - you know, the part that gives the vital context?  And they like to do it under some pretense of a "kindness" like it's all just being super helpful. *rolls eyes*

Whatever happens, you made the right decision for YOU. That's the only explanation anyone ever needs.


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## 48306 (Jul 6, 2011)

Congratulations Brenna! I promoted this book as part of the NA thread here on KB. I thought it sounded great! Walking away from a big offer is never easy. I'm so happy to see you doing so well.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Wishing you all the best, Brenna. I'm sorry for how others in the community have treated you. I'm looking forward to reading your blog and following your journey.

Gah, why did I click that AW link? The best thing they ever did for me was ban me. I've felt much happier since leaving the negativity behind. There are some lovely people on that site, but the way self-publishing and self-publishers are treated actually had a very negative effect on me. I let myself get too close, I think. 

Some people can use AW and be fine. Unfortunately I'm not one of them.

I also spent a lot of time posting my results, putting up my sales figures to try and help others. It really cut into my writing time.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

My opinion of Absolute Write:

I was banned from there something like a year after I had stopped posting there. There were convinced that some newbie was me sockpuppeting them, even though ten seconds of Googling would have shown them otherwise. So they banned me. I emailed the mods to see if I could get the ban lifted, showing that this other guy with his own books on Amazon was in fact another guy, but they said no. Which says everything about their character.

So, yeah. Losers.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2014)

Welcome Brenna,

Eesh, I read just the first page of the AW thread and I already feel stupider for it. What a strange place.


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

Congratulations, Brenna! My feeling is that you'll earn more than what you were offered, as an indie. You've got a high-concept idea, you've got a well-written novel in a hot genre, you're gonna be soaring. And you've retained complete control!

Welcome aboard the indiecoaster! Enjoy the ride!


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Wow, I never realised so many people had been banned from AW. We should start a support group somewhere. I often feel like I have PTSD from the whole experience.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

sarahdalton said:


> Wow, I never realised so many people had been banned from AW. We should start a support group somewhere. I often feel like I have PTSD from the whole experience.


Looking at your sales reports is the perfect cure


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## SeanBlack (May 13, 2010)

Strikes me as a very sensible decision. Especially sensible given that we are in a very dynamic publishing climate. As Hugh and quite a few others have pointed out, you have to break down a six figure deal carefully. I would expect Brenna (hi Brenna!) will earn out on her own far faster than with a publisher.

The less said about AW the better. Some serious Stockholm Syndrome going on over there.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

dgaughran said:


> Looking at your sales reports is the perfect cure


Haha, yeah there is that!

Along with the really nice, genuine people who offered support afterwards. As well as Kboards being totally awesome.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Well done, Brenna, and good luck!

I've never been banned from AW (or even joined). Do I win a prize?


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> The understatement is strong with this one.


I like all of the faux "I hope she does well" sentiments, which usually follow a two paragraph diatribe about how she's either 1.) Lying or 2.) Out of her mind for turning down the deal.

I have never looked at the AW Roundtable. Is this the "other" forum mentioned at times here on KB?

Press on Brenna and never look back!


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day. Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


Sorry to hear you've been having such a rough time from them. The bitterness, arrogance & jealousy from that thread was so strong that I gave up reading it after a couple of pages. I totally understand why you'd turn down the offers, I think I would have done that too. Here's hoping that you make more than enough to justify your decision to those who only think about the offer amount!


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

S Elliot Brandis said:


> It's very interesting to see the number of authors who are either:
> - walking away from their existing trad publishers, in whole or in part.
> - walking away from offers on the table from trad publishers, due to their tightening of contract conditions.
> - shaking their heads and not even bothering with trad pubs in the first place.


If we had a writers' guild with any kind of spine, they would announce effectively immediately that no author should sign with any publisher that includes a NC clause. They would also advise that no author sign any publishing contract that retains rights for more than 7 years. It would then outline best practices and freelance sources for self-publishing your works until publishers made real changes in how they do business.

Hollywood writers did this in response to streaming movie rights, and it worked. It made the industry more fair. We don't have a union fighting for us. We have unions fighting for publishers and bookstores.

Who's fighting for us? The Brenna Aubreys of the world, that's who. One at a time.

We're not all standing as one, which makes those who do stand up brave as hell. Thank you, Brenna, for sending a message to this publisher. Once they receive enough of them, the market for our profession will improve. And even those authors being cruel and ignorant will reap the benefits, not even knowing why the world is a better place.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> We don't have a union fighting for us. We have unions fighting for publishers and bookstores.


It's even worse than that. The only information you will get about self-publishing from the Authors Guild pertains to their Back In Print program, which is operated by Author Solutions.

I kid you not.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Good luck to you, Brenna! So many indie authors are taking that giant leap of faith.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

sarahdalton said:


> Gah, why did I click that AW link? The best thing they ever did for me was ban me. I've felt much happier since leaving the negativity behind. There are some lovely people on that site, but the way self-publishing and self-publishers are treated actually had a very negative effect on me. I let myself get too close, I think.
> 
> Some people can use AW and be fine. Unfortunately I'm not one of them.
> 
> I also spent a lot of time posting my results, putting up my sales figures to try and help others. It really cut into my writing time.


I was absolutely shocked when you were banned. You were one of the best posters, always posting helpful advice, always super respectful. Couldn't see any reason for your ban, unless it was you were too successful at showing what could be achieved by self publishing. Glad you appreciate the ban now.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

What a great way to start the New Year, Brenna! Congratulations!

Life is looking wonderful. I'm sure when Books 2 and 3 are out, everything will click in place and you'll be able to blog about your decision being the right one. Thing is, will AW then link to it and will the same people questioning your intelligence say anything then?

The successes of so many here in the Cafe are all we need to care about. Those insulated in their comfort zones will never understand the thrill and will always look at everything through their lenses of suspicion. I'm glad you didn't let the doubters stop you from making a difficult, but right *for you*, decision.

Congrats again!


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

It's so fantastic that authors have a choice. Just a few years ago it was "take this lousy offer or shove that unloved manuscript back under your bed." Brenna, I hope your earnings over time (while writing anything you want!) make all those naysayers gnash their teeth


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

I also had a thought about the agent. I think I saw that the agent said that it wasn't worth negotiating against the non-compete clause. But maybe that's because the agent had no dog in that fight. So, is the agent going to push hard for the right for an author to self-publish other titles when that doesn't gain the agent anything, and might mean that the top headline figure is reduced?

I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, more just making a general point (which I think someone else here mentioned before) that, in this new publishing world, authors and their agents best interests mightn't align in some aspects of the negotiation with trade publishers.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

David J Normoyle said:


> I was absolutely shocked when you were banned. You were one of the best posters, always posting helpful advice, always super respectful. Couldn't see any reason for your ban, unless it was you were too successful at showing what could be achieved by self publishing. Glad you appreciate the ban now.


I think being 'relentlessly snotty' was the official line.

Anyway, I don't want to derail any further. Enough AW talk!


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## georgette (Sep 4, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> I remember back when I thought a 3-book deal must be three times better than a 1-book deal. Right?
> 
> Yikes. Wrong.
> 
> ...


I faced exactly this dilemma recently after I landed an agent. My book, The Alpha Claims A Mate, made no. 40 on the Amazon bestseller list in August (at $2.99, even). I started talking to agents. I landed an agent, a lovely lady who represents several NYtimes bestsellers. (And since then, my two subsequent books have also hit the top 100 list.) However, when we discussed what a trad publishing deal would entail, I decided it wasn't even worth pursuing at this point.

Best case scenario, if I got a 3 book deal at $100,000 per book (and there's no guarantee I'd get that much, it could be more like $100,000 for three books) - but still, sounds awesome, right? Once upon a time I thought that meant $300,000 in my bank account, and then while I waited for the print book to come out, I would continue publishing e-books, in a different series then the one that I'd sold to my agent, at my normal pace of a new book every 4 to 8 weeks. Turns out - I'd get one third of the advance up front, minus the agent's fee, and then my ability to earn money would come to a screeching halt while I waited for the publisher to decide if, and when, they were going to publish my book.

I still would love to see my books in print, sitting on a bookshelf in a bookstore, but I literally can not afford it right now. And I don't think I'd ever sign a non-compete clause - well, maybe if there was literally millions being offered...geez, I don't know. Being handcuffed like that and not being able to write and publish what I want, when I want, would be incredibly frustrating after I've had so much freedom. And I don't see anyone throwing millions at me any time soon.

Anyway, Breanna, I'm sorry that people on that other forum are being b-holes. That just strengthens my resolve never to visit there. Why wallow in negativity?


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day. Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


...which is funny, because most of the active posters over there are with small presses and/or epublishers. So I guess they don't understand "big publishing business things" either.

Eventually one or two will find their way out of the tarpit, like the rest of us did, and start making actual money on their books. The rest will reap what they sow.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Another thing about those non-competes:

Aside from handcuffing the writer, it really shows the analog thinking of large publishers. If a writer was to self-publish another book in the same world as a series sold to a publisher, that wouldn't "compete" it would increase the reader pool for all the books in the series - incl. the one sold to the publisher. It's like free advertising for the book they own. And they are turning it down. Hilarious.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I checked out that thread on the other forum and it's amazing how out of touch they are with what is really happening in the world of self-publishing and what's possible. There's still so many people that are chasing the traditional publishing dream with blinders on to the reality of what that actually means.

What was a real eye-opener for me was the post by Courtney Milan. I read that a while back and it was fascinating to look at the black and white breakdown of data on what a book could be worth and comparing it to an offer from a NY pub that looks great on the surface, but when it's looked at more closely, it's less impressive.

I checked out this book and it looks like it will do well, and is already doing well. Congrats!


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## ER Pierce (Jun 4, 2013)

Congrats, Brenna, and good for you.   I wish you well!


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

When I read this book, I could totally see why it went up for auction. But I totally got why Brenna turned down the contract. I know this series will do super well. I can't wait for the other books to come out this year.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Brenna said:


> LOL @ the cesspool comment. I just tried to delete my profile and found out I can't. ugh.
> 
> Thanks for your kind words.


AW--Ugh. I never go there. A wasteland. You do yourself no possible good going there. Why get abused? I never saw so many rude self-proclaimed geniuses in one place. It's like a cult. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Run Brenna run. Congrats on the book!


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## Paul Kohler (Aug 14, 2013)

This is awesome, Brenna!  I wish you the very best of luck, but I am sure you will not need it.  You'll knock it out of the park!


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## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

The angst over at the other site is really that those writers want to be published by a traditional publisher - that is their goal and so the money is meaningless to them. They value being able to tell their friends at dinner parties that they got that three book deal. Later they may experience buyer's remorse but the goal for them is the deal, not the money.

Cold hard cash from real reader fans - that's the metric I like to use. 

Dinner parties are still fun, I imagine these scenarios: "this book paid the mortgage last month", "my boxed-set bought that race car in the garage, it's speedy", and "this book series funds that fleet of delivery drones for customers that get their purchases direct from my website".

Congrats, Brenna


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

The non-compete clauses I've seen in smaller press contracts (not called non-competes...just shoved into the contract as another section) are generic and allow tons of interpretation...for a good reason. They serve a far broader purpose than just a "non-compete" with the novel they've contracted. The manuscript is not the only commodity they have purchased. They've made an investment, current and future, in the writer. No publisher wants you to damage your brand or reputation (extending to them). Self publishing a shoddy product or controversial story could put their investment at risk. If I was running a publisher's contracts division, I would most certainly apply a strict NC to the contract. It makes sense from a business perspective, and explains why most of us are seeing a tightening of NC's, especially as self publishing becomes more and more standard.  

I'm not sure what these AW authors are talking about? Or if they've truly seen "loose" NC's. The looser an NC, the more useless it becomes. They have more than one reason for these clauses, and to David's point, many of the reasons are "old school" thinking that demonstrates a complete lack of understanding, or willful ignorance of the market. Building demand for the next NA book in Brenna's series over the span of a year is utterly ridiculous. 

All this said, Brenna made the right call...go Brenna!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

ScriptLand said:


> I'd wish you good luck, but it sounds like you'll make your own
> 
> I've seen how small pub houses work. Can't speak to the Big Boys, but what Jana said in her posts on AW are in line with what I saw.


What's really frustrating about this whole situation over there, and the things they're saying, and the assumptions they're making, is that ONE OF THEIR OWN got a high six-figure, three-book deal a few years ago. She was the sweetheart of AW (deservedly...she's a truly wonderful person) and was held up as proof that every dogmatic thing they tout there is fact: that all good books get published, that all Big Six deals are good, etc.

I'm close friends with that particular author, and unfortunately she did not get all the support she should have had. Her U.S. cover was awful and did nothing to sell the story (foreign covers were better). Very little promotional support from her publisher in spite of the huge advance. And, unsurprisingly, given the lack of support and crap cover, her book underperformed by a wide margin. Now the release of the next book in the series has been pushed back and there seems to be minimal interest in it from her agent or editor. She's stuck in that contract until she's fulfilled the terms, but she's told me that she's thinking very seriously about self-publishing when this is all over.

So not only has the former Gold Standard of AW run into a downer situation with her huge Big Six deal, and nobody at AW knows that side of how the huge success story of their community turned out...but she's probably going to become a self-publisher in the near future.

I guess, what can you say, other than


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day. Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


You're number #827 in the Kindle Store..with 82 awesome reviews.

I would say the readers are voting with their purchases.

We write for readers.. not other writers. Let the naysayers stew away. You have published book making you real $$$ and they have... what exactly do the they have again?


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

Amid "liar" and "publicity stunt" accustions, they closed the thread over on AW. How did it even devolve to that?

From what I read, I think what is really difficult for some to believe on AW is that there really_ is _that much money being made in self-publishing. Here, we all know that there's 6 figures and more that can be made. Yes, at one time in my writing career, I would have swooned over a 6 figure deal. Totally a different deal now.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> If we had a writers' guild with any kind of spine, they would announce effectively immediately that no author should sign with any publisher that includes a NC clause. They would also advise that no author sign any publishing contract that retains rights for more than 7 years. It would then outline best practices and freelance sources for self-publishing your works until publishers made real changes in how they do business.
> 
> Hollywood writers did this in response to streaming movie rights, and it worked. It made the industry more fair. We don't have a union fighting for us. We have unions fighting for publishers and bookstores.
> 
> Who's fighting for us? The Brenna Aubreys of the world, that's who. One at a time.


Why don't we make a guild like this? I've never organized such a thing before, so I don't know why we couldn't do it -- what are some of the arguments against starting this type of thing, from people who know more about it than I do? Educate me!! (Maybe in a different thread? I don't mean to derail, but this idea is really interesting to me.)


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

PamelaKelley said:


> I checked out that thread on the other forum and it's amazing how out of touch they are with what is really happening in the world of self-publishing and what's possible. There's still so many people that are chasing the traditional publishing dream with blinders on to the reality of what that actually means.


It starts from the top down, sadly enough. You notice that our mods never step in here to lecture anyone about facts and to take sides. They just cool off threads when they get too heated and say nice congratulatory things that they seem to actually mean.

What's crazy-making about that other place is that the bullies are the people who are supposed to protect you from getting bullied. It's like being hit by the guards. There's a learned helplessness that occurs. The travesty is that a lot of aspiring authors are led astray by not being able to hear both sides of the argument. The one sub-forum that should be open to discussion has a disclaimer in the _thread description_ warning people not to be pro-self-publishing. In a self-publishing sub-forum.

I don't care about the bad people there; I feel pity for them if anything. It's the people who wander in there, looking for advice as I did, that I truly feel for. What could be an awesome resource is a potential career-killer. And those who brag about having the most experience in publishing are those who are so set in their ways and so ignorant of new media that they can do the most harm.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> What's crazy-making about that other place is that the bullies are the people who are supposed to protect you from getting bullied. It's like being hit by the guards. There's a learned helplessness that occurs.


TRUE FACT: When I first started going there, I was put on a three-day suspension because I said I thought Ayn Rand was a terrible writer, and she happened to be the favorite author of some mod or other.

Why that wasn't a clue to run screaming from that place and never return is beyond me. I finally stopped going after my thread where I informed the community that I would be self-publishing from now on, because I thought long and hard about what I wanted out of my career, and the only things I wanted were 1) to reach a receptive audience and 2) to make enough money, eventually, to live on. I could do both faster with self-pub, and my vision of an ideal career no longer included the "legitimacy" conferred upon me by acceptance by a publisher. The money and the readers were the legitimacy, period. Needless to say, I was roundly skewered for having that attitude, but by that time I didn't care. I guess that was a couple of years ago now. I haven't been back since, and I don't miss it.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I don't care about the bad people there; I feel pity for them if anything. It's the people who wander in there, looking for advice as I did, that I truly feel for. What could be an awesome resource is a potential career-killer. And those who brag about having the most experience in publishing are those who are so set in their ways and so ignorant of new media that they can do the most harm.


I almost quit right at the beginning. I got such a shake down from the mods after my first few posts that I thought: 'Crap, what am I doing? I'm way too stupid and naive to publish a book. I don't know anything.' Then I got a nice PM from a certain Hugh Howey (thank you!) and a few other people, started reading a bit more, followed authors like Mary Macdonald, read Kboards, went quiet on AW, published my book, built it up from nothing, sold more books than I ever thought I could, went back to AW and actually started getting on with people and networking, got banned over nothing and now I'm a full time author. Phew!

It saddens me that I could have missed out on all that because of the negativity from others. It's a very strange atmosphere. At points I had people cheering me on, and at times they shout you down. But I really hope that newbies come here first for self-publishing advice, because there really aren't many left to help other there.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> The one sub-forum that should be open to discussion has a disclaimer in the _thread description_ warning people not to be pro-self-publishing. In a self-publishing sub-forum.
> 
> ...What could be an awesome resource is a potential career-killer.


I haven't been over there in ages, but I just checked after I saw your post, and all I can say is wow... That's a new level of ridiculous. Unfortunately, that was the first place I stumbled across when I was trying to figure out how to have my first novel published. After spending the better part of a month reading threads, it would be a massive understatement to say that I felt discouraged. I almost didn't bother and actually thought about giving up my dream of becoming a published author.

It was my wife who finally convinced me to ignore all the doom and gloom and do it myself. I realized that I could let my work sit unread on my hard drive until I was dead and gone, or I could put it up on Amazon and see what happens. I'm so glad I did.

Here's the thing... i'm not making a living at this yet. I don't know if I ever will. What I DO know is that I might not have a place to live right now if not for my self-published books. They paid my rent, car payment and bought me enough food to keep my family going after my job of 10 years closed its doors. If not for the $600 - $700 each month my wife and I bring in from our mostly unsuccessful books, I don't know what I would have done in 2013. That's awesome to think about. Our creativity was able to carry us through tough times. How many people on AW can say that? Many of their books are stuck in submission limbo, and they'll stay that way until they sell to a publisher, or the authors wake up and do something about it.

Anyway, I'm not trying to speak negatively of those people. They're doing what they want. I'm just glad I ignored the majority of advice over there and listened to my wife. I'm also very glad I began posting at KB right after I hit the publish button. Those are the best career choices I've ever made.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

sarahdalton said:


> went back to AW and actually started getting on with people and networking, got banned over nothing and now I'm a full time author. Phew!


The thing that annoys me the most at AW (And I got snippy with someone when they said they were irritated that Brenna was incorrectly using the term Indie) is that, as self published authors, we're not allowed to call ourselves Indies. Like... WHAT!?!?!?


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## laceysilks (Mar 11, 2013)

Congratulations! Way to stick to your guns, believe in your work and make an informed decision. You are such a down to earth woman. It's been awesome seeing you rock!


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

K.B. Nelson/Parker said:


> The thing that annoys me the most at AW (And I got snippy with someone when they said they were irritated that Brenna was incorrectly using the term Indie) is that, as self published authors, we're not allowed to call ourselves Indies. Like... WHAT!?!?!?


Indeed. It really doesn't get more indie than "I'm gonna do this myself."


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> If we had a writers' guild with any kind of spine, they would announce effectively immediately that no author should sign with any publisher that includes a NC clause. They would also advise that no author sign any publishing contract that retains rights for more than 7 years. It would then outline best practices and freelance sources for self-publishing your works until publishers made real changes in how they do business.
> 
> Hollywood writers did this in response to streaming movie rights, and it worked. It made the industry more fair. We don't have a union fighting for us. We have unions fighting for publishers and bookstores.


Aside: We don't have a union fighting for us because it would be an antitrust violation. Unions are exempt from antitrust law because they're selling labor, which is exempt under 15 USC s. 17. The screenwriters guilds are labor unions because they're selling their labor. Authors generally aren't selling labor, unless we're doing a work for hire--we're selling a product.

So it's actually illegal for authors to organize to ask for better conditions on the products we license, because there's no antitrust exemption for people who band together to set terms and prices for the sale of goods or services. It's a shame because it's pretty hard to draw a distinction in many cases, but there are some real difficulties with authors banding together for certain purposes.

Bren already knows how much I love her, but I love how AW thinks that somehow, she won't have made a good decision unless she hits the NYT list on her own, and that we have to wait and see what her sales will be like. At this point, it should be obvious to anyone who has any idea of sales mechanics that she's going to outearn the offer.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

David Scroggins said:


> Here's the thing... i'm not making a living at this yet. I don't know if I ever will. What I DO know is that I might not have a place to live right now if not for my self-published books. They paid my rent, car payment and bought me enough food to keep my family going after my job of 10 years closed its doors. If not for the $600 - $700 each month my wife and I bring in from our mostly unsuccessful books, I don't know what I would have done in 2013. That's awesome to think about. Our creativity was able to carry us through tough times. How many people on AW can say that? Many of their books are stuck in submission limbo, and they'll stay that way until they sell to a publisher, or the authors wake up and do something about it.


Inspirational, man. Sorry to get off-topic, but these are the stories that Salon and others should be covering, not the outliers at either extreme.

Or the story of the 12-year-old bibliophile who completed NaNoWriMo, published her book, and got a piece of fan mail from a reader four times her age half the world away. There are small miracles occurring every day because of this industry disruption. Really wish that was the focus.


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## RoseInTheTardis (Feb 2, 2013)

I think the most important part of finding happiness in this crazy publishing business is to figure out what you want from your career--not what people say you should want--and go for that. Congrats, Breanna! Sounds like you've got that part figured out.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> ...bibliophile...


That was it! Was trying to remember: I've been called many things by the AW mods, but the funniest was that I was "no bibliophile." I don't know whether that was because I own a Kindle or advocate self-publishing or have a habit of leaving books on trains... but that was hilarious.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hugh Howey said:


> It starts from the top down, sadly enough. You notice that our mods never step in here to lecture anyone about facts and to take sides. They just cool off threads when they get too heated and say nice congratulatory things that they seem to actually mean.


Did someone mention the mods here?  Since I was invoked...a reminder that this thread was supposed to be about Brenna's decision; the AW link was ancillary to the original post. Let's not make this about AW...let's make it about Brenna, her decision and how glad we are that she's posting here discussing it. Here's a quote from the original OP as a reminder:



VEVO said:


> http://brennaaubrey.net/2013/12/08/in-which-i-explain-why-i-turned-down-a-three-book-new-york-print-deal-to-self-publish/
> 
> It peaked in the low 100s on the Kindle Store on December 12, 2013, judging from this blog post (maybe even lower)
> 
> http://theseasonforromance.com/wordpress/2013/12/interview-giveaway-at-any-price-by-brenna-aubrey/


And while I think the discussions about AW have been fairly civil, let's avoid name calling, ok? (If your post didn't include any name calling, and most didn't, that comment didn't apply to you.) Thanks! At least one post in this thread was reported and has been edited... (Y'all can play Where's Waldo and look for it if you want...)

Happy New Year, everyone! Thanks for being part of the KBoards Writers' Café!

Betsy
KB Mod

PS--don't tell ElHawk that I like Ayn Rand. I won't ban her though...


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

I was a member of AW for a long time and there are a particular few I was very fond of for a while, including a few mods.

But when a friend of mine told me about a particular self publisher who was showing other authors how to self publish, and then I followed that author and others around to see how they did it, I was hooked. Write what *I* want and not what I thought editors wanted? Publish more than one book a year? Get paid once a month directly? That's ludicrous enough to try!

At one point, I returned to AW intending to dig up more info on self publishing. They're writers! They ought to know a few things. Some were receptive, but I got a lot of conflicting information in the self publishing section and when I tried to give advice I'd learned outside the forum, it was pretty much ignored. I got the sense, too, that while there is a self published section, it wasn't run by anyone who was self published by any means. I understand not wanting to have a 'bashing war' against publishers and agents, but ignoring those who were successful and learning from that success and translating it into something for others is supposed to be what this networking thing is all about.

Instead of fighting it, I just sought out others who were in the same mindset and had more to teach me. I'm two years into this thing and December was my first $25k month. That's 5x bigger than markets I'd been aiming for as far as advance money. I could never have done it if I'd stayed on AW. 

And I'm very much open to the idea of figuring out some middle ground with publishing companies and agents. This bashing at each other doesn't do anyone any good. I didn't open this AW thread and don't plan to as I don't want to read it if it isn't useful or helpful. 

I'm very happy to have found this place. Even if we do butt heads, we're on the same team and you guys are very respectable and open minded to try new strategies. I had thought at one time to go back to AW and let them know of what happened with me. I wanted to be that 'old voice' that could share some insight, including meeting up with some trade published authors who switched to self publish. And not to bash publishers but just to show the other side of the coin.

But now I'm not sure I want to. Not trying to prove anyone wrong, but just to show another path. I don't know if it would be worth relating.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> TRUE FACT: When I first started going there, I was put on a three-day suspension because I said I thought Ayn Rand was a terrible writer, and she happened to be the favorite author of some mod or other.
> 
> Why that wasn't a clue to run screaming from that place and never return is beyond me. I finally stopped going after my thread where I informed the community that I would be self-publishing from now on, because I thought long and hard about what I wanted out of my career, and the only things I wanted were 1) to reach a receptive audience and 2) to make enough money, eventually, to live on. I could do both faster with self-pub, and my vision of an ideal career no longer included the "legitimacy" conferred upon me by acceptance by a publisher. The money and the readers were the legitimacy, period. Needless to say, I was roundly skewered for having that attitude, but by that time I didn't care. I guess that was a couple of years ago now. I haven't been back since, and I don't miss it.


I'm really glad I never stumbled into that forum. Today was the first time I had EVERY looked at it. First and last.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Courtney Milan said:


> Aside: We don't have a union fighting for us because it would be an antitrust violation. Unions are exempt from antitrust law because they're selling labor, which is exempt under 15 USC s. 17. The screenwriters guilds are labor unions because they're selling their labor. Authors generally aren't selling labor, unless we're doing a work for hire--we're selling a product.


OHHHH. Okay, that makes perfect sense. Thanks, Courtney!



> Bren already knows how much I love her, but I love how AW thinks that somehow, she won't have made a good decision unless she hits the NYT list on her own, and that we have to wait and see what her sales will be like. At this point, it should be obvious to anyone who has any idea of sales mechanics that she's going to outearn the offer.


Seriously, this. It's not that great a deal for three books over five or so years. It's certainly not quit-your-day-job money.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

Meep! I posted right after Betsy asked not to derail. Sorry! 

But Brenna, stick with it. I love that you're looking at all options. I won't pretend to know details, just that I know if it were me three years ago, I probably would have jumped on a $100k deal and thought I had made it. Now I couldn't imagine being locked to just three books in five years. My readership would kill me and I'd be so poor!

And I hope you do get some attention (good sales) from all this. And if you had accepted, I would have been just as hopeful that it panned out to your benefit.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Oh, and I finally went and checked out Brenna's book...totally my sister's cup of tea!  I just sent her the link.  She's been looking for a new book to read.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

I made that long post and forgot to congratulate Brenna. I'm such a space cadet!

Congrats! I've been checking your numbers all morning, and it looks like you're doing wonderfully! Great job!


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## Cleo (Jan 11, 2013)

Brenna, I would have done exactly what you did. It seems pretty straightforward to me, and I'm surprised that anyone is giving you a hard time. I doubt any businessperson on the planet would have acted differently. I'm positive your readers will also appreciate your faster publication schedule. May your bank account overflow.



sarahdalton said:


> Gah, why did I click that AW link? The best thing they ever did for me was ban me. I've felt much happier since leaving the negativity behind. There are some lovely people on that site, but the way self-publishing and self-publishers are treated actually had a very negative effect on me. I let myself get too close, I think.
> 
> Some people can use AW and be fine. Unfortunately I'm not one of them.
> 
> I also spent a lot of time posting my results, putting up my sales figures to try and help others. It really cut into my writing time.


Not that it will give you back your lost time but I found your posts and candor incredibly valuable. Your presence there went a long way toward redeeming them, and when I saw the ban under your name, I stopped posting and decided to never donate money (or stories--I donated to their erotica anthology) to them again. You and Katie Elle were so helpful. So here's my belated THANK YOU


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## Blerch (Oct 17, 2013)

Since I've learned how quickly I put out words, I don't think I would have taken that trad pub contract either. And I made...$150 last month?

It seems trad pub would be good for those writers that take a year or two to write a book. But for Breanna, who seems to be the sort to crank out books like the best of our writers, I think she made the right choice. She has a platform, marketing, etc., on her side.

Just hopefully she doesn't forget about us when she's on her world tour and advising on the film adaptations of her books


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

David Scroggins said:


> I haven't been over there in ages, but I just checked after I saw your post, and all I can say is wow... That's a new level of ridiculous. Unfortunately, that was the first place I stumbled across when I was trying to figure out how to have my first novel published. After spending the better part of a month reading threads, it would be a massive understatement to say that I felt discouraged. I almost didn't bother and actually thought about giving up my dream of becoming a published author.
> 
> It was my wife who finally convinced me to ignore all the doom and gloom and do it myself. I realized that I could let my work sit unread on my hard drive until I was dead and gone, or I could put it up on Amazon and see what happens. I'm so glad I did.
> 
> ...


I LOVE this! YES!

My breakout book had been rejected for five years. My editor was a personal friend with several acquisition editors at some of the Big Six and took it upon herself to personally reach out to them and say, "You have to read this book!" And I still couldn't get past that slush pile. If I hadn't opened one spammy looking email from B&N which told me I could be an author if I just pressed "upload", if I had clung to the thought that self-pub was somehow below a person, if I had waited those six months for one more round of rejections... I would still be sitting in a 6x6 windowless cubicle ordering office furniture for people and assembling chairs today.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

I know this is OT, but I just wanted to put in a mild defense of AW. I used to hang out there and I learned a lot, but I quit because it was too much of a time suck and I didn't want to deal with the hostile personalities -- but there really aren't too many of them, if you know who to look out for, and they're often informative and/or entertaining. 

I have had at least one conversation about self-publishing, specifically my own decision to self-publish, with the woman who owns and runs Absolute Write (IRL).  I have not found her, personally, to be anti self-publishing at all. FWIW.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

With permission, Brenna, I would like to write a blog post about this. A positive post, of course


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

David J Normoyle said:


> I also had a thought about the agent. I think I saw that the agent said that it wasn't worth negotiating against the non-compete clause. But maybe that's because the agent had no dog in that fight. So, is the agent going to push hard for the right for an author to self-publish other titles when that doesn't gain the agent anything, and might mean that the top headline figure is reduced?
> 
> I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, more just making a general point (which I think someone else here mentioned before) that, in this new publishing world, authors and their agents best interests mightn't align in some aspects of the negotiation with trade publishers.


The best interests of authors and agents already didn't align in one very significant way even when traditional publishing was the only game in town. Agents who represent more than one author have to first and foremost protect their agent relationship with publishers. Thus, in getting aggressive when pursuing such issues as slow payment of advances and royalties, etc, many agents would stop short of confronting publishers on a problem affecting just one author, in order to protect their overall agent-publisher relationship.


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

dgaughran said:


> Another thing about those non-competes:
> 
> Aside from handcuffing the writer, it really shows the analog thinking of large publishers. If a writer was to self-publish another book in the same world as a series sold to a publisher, that wouldn't "compete" it would increase the reader pool for all the books in the series - incl. the one sold to the publisher. It's like free advertising for the book they own. And they are turning it down. Hilarious.


By the way, a good way of neutering the non-compete clause is to put in language to the effect that it applies only to other books which are explicitly or identically the same in theme and language. My text books are still traditionally published, and I got the publishers to agree to that change.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Steven Konkoly said:


> I'm really glad I never stumbled into that forum. Today was the first time I had EVERY looked at it. First and last.


Yup. Me too.

Brenna welcome and Congratulations!


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## S.K. Falls (Jun 17, 2013)

Wow, I would never sign a NC and I can't believe that in this day and age, people are giving her a hard time about it. I'm glad she's doing so well on her own. The naysayers, in my opinion, are simply scared and/or intimidated by what they don't understand. Some people are terrified of having the status quo change.


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## geekgrrl (Oct 14, 2013)

I saw this thread yesterday, read all the links, went to Amazon, bought the book....AND STAYED UP ALL NIGHT READING IT. LOVED IT! Any author that can keep me up all night is a new favorite of mine. Congrats, can't wait to read more of your work.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

I've seen the NC buried in the Author's Warranties section. Take a look at this one...these are usually buried at the back of the contract. 

"(h) the Work will be Author’s next work (whether under Author’s name or otherwise), and that Author will not publish or authorize publication of any other full-length work of which Author is an author or co-author until six months after publication of the Work."

Talk about restrictive. Who the $#@! are they kidding? 6 months after?


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## SusannaCrawford (Dec 3, 2013)

Congratulations on the decision, Brenna! I'm halfway through At Any Price, and I'm enjoying it a lot.

As another recovering member of the AW forum, I don't know what else to say about that thread, except... yeah, that's why I left. I'm so glad I found my way here.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Steven Konkoly said:


> I've seen the NC buried in the Author's Warranties section. Take a look at this one...these are usually buried at the back of the contract.
> 
> "(h) the Work will be Author's next work (whether under Author's name or otherwise), and that Author will not publish or authorize publication of any other full-length work of which Author is an author or co-author until six months after publication of the Work."
> 
> Talk about restrictive. Who the $#@! are they kidding? 6 months after?


I believe that in _many_ countries this wouldn't stand up in court, but would be held to be void because it's "in restraint of trade" and therefore contrary to public policy.

Some people imagine that you can put absolutely any clause you like in a contract and the fact that it's there and signed by both parties necessarily makes it legally enforceable. The reality is very different indeed, often to the great disappointment of fervent adherents to the principle of "sanctity of contract". Especially when the parties are held not to have contracted on an equal footing. Different countries have different statutory laws and common laws and precedent laws for overruling these things. They can easily backfire on the "oppressor" because if they don't stand up in court, then the oppressor is effectively left with _no_ protection on the specific point involved. Courts strike them out of contracts: they don't substitute something less onerous.

But to a great extent, they're there as deterrents, in the knowledge that they'll very rarely actually be tested in court. So people get away with them, to all intents and purposes.

It's also perfectly true that agents can and regularly do negotiate such clauses, of course. And a publisher's attitude toward them when an experienced agent is involved is typically very different from their attitude when dealing with an unagented author. Not that any of this is relevant to Brenna, in this instance.


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## Suzan Butler (Apr 6, 2013)

The AW thread was deleted, after it was locked.

Congrats to Brenna, for being the target of her first internet kerfluffle. Many happy sales.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Brenna said:


> P.S. I was kindly contacted by the owner of that other forum who apologized to me and graciously deleted the other thread in question.


I'm happy to hear that. It was a very bad thread.

Thank you for being here and discussing it with us. And *very* best of luck and good wishes to you!


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## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Congrats!!! And thanks for sharing your thought process on your blog.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

We need to have a Kboards vs. AW rumble.










Of course, no hitting the hands.

I'll bring the trident.

And congrats, Brenna.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Brenna,
Read your blurb and bought your book.  Good luck in your publishing career.
cin


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## minxmalone (Oct 28, 2012)

Congrats on the amazing debut Brenna! I was up reading it late and only stopped because my hubby gave me the stink-eye at about 2 am. I don't think you need to worry about it tanking anymore!


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Brenna said:


> Go for it!!! I'd appreciate a link when you are done so I can read it.


Will do.


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## Giselle London (Apr 24, 2012)

Based on Hugh's math, working it out to $17k a YEAR  that someone would earn from a $100k 3 book deal, that means you would earn $1375 per month. (i.e. poverty-level income, even for a single person)

Look at Brenna's rankings. I know she HAS to have already beat $1375, probably in the first week. _She wins._

And Brenna, don't worry about it tanking--it's already gotten into the 100s, and it's in the 800s now. That is NOT tanking. And if it did? You can write another.

And another.

And another.

And another.

You won't be sitting around twiddling your thumbs because some Big Five publishing house said so. Your earnings aren't capped. You have unlimited potential.

Go get 'em!!


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## Sally C (Mar 31, 2011)

Bravo, Brenna, on knowing what you want, what your work can earn, and going for it. It must have been very stressful going through all that, but good for you for doing your research and making the decision.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Oh so late to the conversation here.  I'm with the author though, no way I'd be looking at signing up for a paltry 6-figures on 3 books if I'm already in the top ranks, clearly I'd already have the "right stuff" and already I've got a fan base.

From personal experience I've found a lot of the "Sign with us, you'll have security" is a load of absolute bollocks when you factor "life" in to it.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Thank you so much for sharing your experience Brenna! 

I can imagine it was a stressful decision process for you to go through. Personally, I believe you made a wise choice! Please do keep us posted on when you reach the advance they offered you in the next month or so.  

I recall Holly (H.M. Ward) shared on the forum that see passed the advance offer from a big publisher in like a month or something.

As to that other place, there is a reason I stick with Kboards. I was warned about the negativity and bad energy generated over there, so I never even bothered registering. Life is too short for all that.

Kudos to Harvey and the Mods (sounds like a 60s rock group) for the great work they do here!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Brenna said:


> I was really down yesterday with the things that were being said at that other place. No one likes to have their character questioned and they seemed determined to poke holes in my blog post.


Darlin', don't waste another thought on those turkeys. That forum is, in my opinion, not worth burning brain cells on. Like Camelot in The Search for the Holy Grail, 'tis a silly place. Let us not go there.



> This was a "long view" type of decision. Whether I make that money or not in the next few months is beside the point. The point is that I *will* make that money with these books eventually. And I'll be able to write and put out several more that I would have had to sit on otherwise (or use a pen name to put out).


...which proves you're a thoughtful businessperson, and probably destined for fantastic success due to your foresight and planning. Rock on with your bad self! (Glad your laptop survived, too!)



> P.S. I was kindly contacted by the owner of that other forum who apologized to me and graciously deleted the other thread in question. Sorry if you're late to the party and didn't get to read it but it was a CF anyway! heh


WOW. I'm honestly very surprised (pleasantly) that she did this. She's been far more hostile to anybody who dared to espouse self-publishing in the past. Maybe she's seeing the writing on the wall.



Brenna said:


> And because I favored having that sort of control I'm "absolute hell to work with?"


I know how frustrating it is to be labeled that way by people who don't know what they're talking about. Hopefully it helps remove some of the sting (and the rightful feeling of indignant annoyance) to remember that the large majority of the people who were saying those things about you _really have no idea what they're talking about_. For most of them, the sum total of their experience with the publishing industry is reading and believing the happy-sunshine stories and the repeated dogma that gets parroted all over that forum. Everybody seems to believe that if they just keep the faith, all their dreams will come true. And it sure is nice to spout all those same, comfortable, familiar lines and hear them echo back at you from everybody else on that forum.

If it's anything like it was when I left it two-ish years ago, virtually none of those people have ever looked at a publishing contract and had to decide whether to sign it or walk away. Virtually none of them have ever had to move past the stage of thinking of their books as their treasured dreams and their fantasies about their future...and instead consider them as business assets, the mishandling of which could cripple their careers for years to come. Virtually none of them have had a book go to auction. Virtually none have lifted their heads outside their comforting echo chamber of fantasies and actually looked critically at the publishing industry and tried to figure out how to fit into the modern publishing landscape. Virtually none write full-time, even though that's the dream of virtually all of them. Virtually none ever will, if they keep going the way they are.

I'm glad you're smarter.


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## -alex- (Jul 12, 2011)

Brenna, first congrats, and also thank you for sharing your story with us all.

I wish you the very best of luck!


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

ElHawk said:


> WOW. I'm honestly very surprised (pleasantly) that she did this. She's been far more hostile to anybody who dared to espouse self-publishing in the past. Maybe she's seeing the writing on the wall.


Or she's seen the writing in her wallet. More and more aspiring writers are meeting in FB groups, genre-specific message boards, and little corners of the internet like KB's WC. I think the hostility toward members and the habit of banning anyone who dares voice a contrary opinion has thinned that place out.

Glad to see Brenna's laptop has been resuscitated. Overall, what a positive thread! Felt like a group therapy session.


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

> The one sub-forum that should be open to discussion has a disclaimer in the thread description warning people not to be pro-self-publishing. In a self-publishing sub-forum.


Jeez. Didn't know that.

Well then they can just f#@k off and keep their little club. I'd rather be here listening to KB'rs celebrate their hundredth sale and having joined the Order of the 1-Star then listening to..."Six months now since I queried agent so and so...any day now! I can feel it baby! Fingers crossed!"


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Am I the only who's still a member?


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

K.B. Nelson/Parker said:


> Am I the only who's still a member?


Not quite. I'm still a member but rarely visit. I used to pop in occasionally to try and answer questions from new self-publishers. I was aware of the board culture, so was careful not to proselytize. I just answered technical questions from writers already interested in self-publishing. Didn't stop a sudden spate of poor reviews with suspiciously personal wording. Might have just been a coincidence that they popped up when they did. But it was marked enough that I stopped posting.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day. Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


Congratulations Brenna! On your book's success. They kicked "He who shall not be named" out to clean.


Spoiler



Hugh Howey


 They really don't know what they're talking about confusing six and seven figure numbers.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Ignore the ignorant.

Another author I know lost the rights to his book after taking an advance and the novel never actually saw the light of day. A change in management at the publisher got his book flushed down the toilet.

I've worked with traditional publishers in the past, my first non-fic book was snapped up as quickly as I wrote it by a traditional publisher. I'm not interested in going that route, ever again. I like to control my product, manage my schedule, interface with my fans. Traditional publishers can be a black hole that I don't care to enter.

Good luck, Breanna. And they'll never understand over there, because they don't want to.

Steve


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Joe_Nobody said:


> Nice call, Brenna, you are clearly a brave young lady.
> 
> As far as "that cesspool over there," I was banned after three days.
> 
> Imagine that.


Makes me want to go over and post so I can get banned too.


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## Blerch (Oct 17, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Congratulations Brenna! On your book's success. They kicked "He who shall not be named" out to clean.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I hear they gave him a bad suit, too. And only one scrubber. Poor guy.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Daniel Gage said:


> I hear they gave him a bad suit, too. And only one scrubber. Poor guy.


He's just a lump on the horizon now.


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## LilianaHart (Jun 20, 2011)

Man! How did I miss all this good stuff? That's what I get for taking time away from the Internet for the holidays. 

Brenna,

As I've said before, congrats on your release and I'm proud of you for making such a business savvy decision. And you're in great company in the mush pot with Hugh. I read your book a couple of weeks ago and loved it!

It's always about the numbers. I know Brenna's deal wasn't for 7 figures, but I always use an example of a million dollars whenever I do my workshops because that's an easy number to work with. I've been offered that much for a book deal before and turned it down. More than once. It's not really a million dollars. 15% will go to my agent, which drops your million to $850,000. And then you've got to pay 40% self-employment income tax on that, which leaves you with $510,000. More than likely, if you're being offered 7 figures, you're already making this much self-publishing anyway. But until you put it on paper and look at it that way, it's easy to let your head spin with the thought of a million dollars. So always work it out before you sign on the dotted line. It's much easier to turn down $510, 000. Especially when there are non-compete clauses and other ridiculous items in the contract that will bury your indie career. 

I've never been over to Absolute Write. I don't think I'll be visiting though after reading everyone's comments. Holy cow.  

**Edited because I should never do math at 1am**


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Well, I'm not a member of AW, but I do like to stop in there and check out some of the threads. There is still a lot of helpful information there, and I suppose I'm one of the select few that do like that forum. I've not run into any rude or snarky posters there. But perhaps the forums I go to do not have the rude or snarky people.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, a reminder that this thread is about Brenna decision, not for trashing Absolute Write....thanks.

Betsy


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

LilianaHart said:


> It's not really a million dollars. 15% will go to my agent, which drops your million to $750,000.


Must be the "new math", I guess?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

zoe tate said:


> Must be the "new math", I guess?


Yeah, thinking that should be $850,000....

but we're not grading. 

Betsy


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## EllenWaite (Dec 4, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks, a reminder that this thread is about Brenna decision, not for trashing Absolute Write....thanks.
> 
> Betsy


Oh, my bad. Can somebody point me to that thread?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

EllenWaite said:


> Oh, my bad. Can somebody point me to that thread?


*unsheaths cattle prod*

Betsy


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## Gee Greenslade (Jan 3, 2014)

Hey everyone, wow what a thread! I just had a really good read through and was honestly surprised as how much this stuff relates to the photography industry. (I'm a photographer and digital artist by trade and after doing book covers from time to time recently re took up my love of writing)

Its really interesting to see how people are reacting to someone tuning down a deal like that when even from the outside looking In I can see just how damaging saying yes to that deal could have been.  We often forget the time and energy it takes to write a book or do the things that we do on our craft. We often think in creative industries "OH HEY CHECK IT OUT SHES DOING WHAT SHE LOVES! SHE JUST JUST WANT EVERYONE TO SEE IT!" - almost as if our ego is driving our creativity - not our want to have a job we love so we can live as our best selves.  For me I might spend upwards of three weeks on a project alone... there is three weeks of my life Im not getting back and whilst I loved every second of that three weeks - that three weeks is whats going to be letting me live for the next few months. The sales and profits from those images have to carry me through. As it was said... it might be 100k but 17k for a year  isn't a comfortable living situation to get you through. I applaud you for making such a daring decision

Thanks for a really great post and read. Congratulations on getting your work out there and seen Breanna!


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> Or she's seen the writing in her wallet. More and more aspiring writers are meeting in FB groups, genre-specific message boards, and little corners of the internet like KB's WC. I think the hostility toward members and the habit of banning anyone who dares voice a contrary opinion has thinned that place out.


I read some comments on a post on The Passive Voice last week that linked to a two year old thread on AW, so of course, I clicked on the link.  What I noticed was that several posters in that thread were now banned, and others who supported self-publishing had very few posts on the site. That made me think they abandoned the site after meeting so much hostility.

I went to an 'ask the mod' board (or whatever it's called--like a help board) at the site last March and asked to be banned. I know I have no self-control and it was only a matter of time before they banned me anyway.  I figured I saved myself a few weeks of negativity if I couldn't respond. What really bugged me though was that before the ban took effect, there were a few mocking comments from members about my request to be banned. Along the lines like I was stomping my foot and threatening to never ever return and poor widdle author, etc. The thing is, my request was polite--I didn't trash the site in asking to be banned.

And Brenna, congrats on your book's success! Sounds like you're already having a great run!


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

This is an older post but Joe goes into some detail on how multi-book deals can be structured to hurt authors and benefit publishers even more so than regular flavored bad deals.

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/05/unconscionability.html


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## Blerch (Oct 17, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> He's just a lump on the horizon now.


/highfive

Let this be a warning to Brenna and anyone else that succeeds and comes here. You'll be subjected to regular puns from your most successful and popular work 

Now where's that thread about Hugh where we took song titles and replaced "you" with "Hugh"...


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

At this point, I'm not sure it is wise for anyone to sign with a traditional publisher. Considering the rising success of Indie authors, we have no way of knowing when one or more trads will go under, or be sold to a company that will not honor prior contracts with new/unknown authors. 

I had a terrible experience with an agent, got hooked into a horrible publishing contract, and therefore deciding to go Indie was easy for me. In my opinion, Brenna made the best possible decision and the most profound comeback to those who say otherwise - is success.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Martitalbott said:


> At this point, I'm not sure it is wise for anyone to sign with a traditional publisher. Considering the rising success of Indie authors, we have no way of knowing when one or more trads will go under, or be sold to a company that will not honor prior contracts with new/unknown authors.
> 
> I had a terrible experience with an agent, got hooked into a horrible publishing contract, and therefore deciding to go Indie was easy for me. In my opinion, Brenna made the best possible decision and the most profound comeback to those who say otherwise - is success.


I had a very tiny offer for my series back in September. I posted about it somewhere here so I won't go into details, but I've been keeping my eye on the publisher. They were brand new but had some serious backing by an internet news site and the guy in charge had MAJOR roles at some of the big 6. Their whole background was the real reason I was interested and spoke to the publisher on the phone. I thought, 'Wow, here's a chance to get in with a new and upcoming publisher early on when they are trying to establish themselves. I'm sure they'll give lots of publicity to their books.' Only I've been watching the books that they've since published. I think all are re-releases. Some were by indie authors, but one was re-released after first being published in the mid-90s. It is non-fiction and has a very recognizable name on the cover. I thought that one would at least get lots of promo, but if they have, it hasn't been visible. All the books' ratings are dismal.

I found one that is most like mine and it's selling for $2.99. The last time I checked the ranking, it was in the 300,000 range. How is that helping the author? At $2.99 and 25% of net, he's making, if he's lucky, about ten bucks a month.  He has another book coming out this month, brand new, so hopefully he'll get some marketing then, but boy, am I glad I didn't sign! I'd be crying right now if I had.


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## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

congrats Brenna on your first month anniversary of publishing At Any Price and thank you for sharing your sales figure with the rest of the Kboards community. Congratulations on your success. 

http://www.kboards.com/authors/index.php/?p_name=brenna+aubrey&submit=author+name&p_page=

Sales Milestone	*5,000*
Est. Sales*	*9,000*
over 1 books since 12/09/13	New Adult / NA Contemporary Romance


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## AriadneW (Feb 16, 2013)

Says it all really, doesn't it?

Congratulations Brenna!!


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## summerdaniels71 (Jul 23, 2011)

Recommended by a reader and posted on my WTRAFSOG site ... good luck and happy sales ... 

https://www.facebook.com/WhatToReadAfter50ShadesOfGrey/posts/582630838480307?stream_ref=10


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I knew I had to have that book when I saw it on the NA promo thread. Read it back in December and recommended it my friends who like romance. Congrats on coming up with such a have-to-read-it premise!


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Another shot in the arm to give me hope.

I won't lie, NC clauses gives me hives to even think about. Like getting my foot nailed to the floor and putting everything I want just out of my reach.

I read success stories on this board and it makes me very glad I've made the decisions I've made to move in this direction. 

Congratulations, Brenna!


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Makes me want to go over and post so I can get banned too.


After this series of posts, I went back in. My ID worked, so I guess I was just suspended. Anyway, it is completely different culture for sure. So far, I've managed to get my first two threads locked by the mod. Shrug. What are they going to do? Type me to death?
I'm hanging out a little just because I'm being pulled more and more into the publisher's side of the table and there are some knowledgeable folks over there, so I guess it's worth the abuse.


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## summerdaniels71 (Jul 23, 2011)

Brenna said:


> Oooooh! That's AWESOME, Summer!!! Thank you for letting me know! wheeeeeee
> 
> BTW I freaking love that page. I've found so many awesome reads that way. You're doing a wonderful job!!


Thank You Brenna ... I appreciate the positive feedback ...


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## sandywilliams (Jun 21, 2012)

Did AbsoluteWrite take down the thread referenced at the beginning of this topic? Can't seem to find it, and I was oh-so-curious to read their reasons for signing with a publisher.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

sandywilliams said:


> Did AbsoluteWrite take down the thread referenced at the beginning of this topic? Can't seem to find it, and I was oh-so-curious to read their reasons for signing with a publisher.


Yep and the moderator apologized.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Funny it seems to always be in the publishing biz that so & so got 6 figures, sometimes qualified with a low, mid, or high 6 figures. In other businesses people speak and plain old hard dollars, like George Clooney was paid $20 Million plus a percentage of gross. Or a screenwriter signed a deal for $1 Million with a back end deal. Must be part of the publishing mystique? Or Amazon had gross sales of $500 Billion.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Brenna said:


> Thank you for the congratulations!! I'm waiting for the Sunday royalties statement to give a detailed account of month 1 on my blog. I'll link it here when it's ready.  Suffice to say it's been a wonderful, wonderful month!!!


Yes! Please share. Hope I don't miss that thread.


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

Oh, so late to the party...  

Congratulations, Brenna! As someone who's experienced the joy of a traditional publishing deal -- only to get no support, watch sales plummet, and end up dropped like a hot rock -- I totally endorse your decision. For what it's worth, coming from some schmuck you don't know. LOL

Also, your book description and excerpts sucked me right in, so now I HAVE to buy your book... it'll be my first NA.  

(And oh, my! HERE are all the people missing from AW! I stopped going after a bunch of the folks right in this thread disappeared... so glad to have found you again! HI SARAH!)


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> This bodes well. My career positively took off after being called nasty things on that site.


Lol Hugh Howey.

I am still banned from the site almost a year after I tried to bring a balanced perspective to a debate about _that_ blog post of yours.
*
"You have been banned for the following reason:
Right. I tried to leave you room to demonstrate you were engaging with good will. You quite ably demonstrated the opposite, instead. Now you can go somewhere else.

Date the ban will be lifted: Never"
*
So when does my karma-kick-back commence? It's being a bit tardy by my estimation


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Buttonman88 said:


> Lol Hugh Howey.
> 
> I am still banned from the site almost a year after I tried to bring a balanced perspective to a debate about _that_ blog post of yours.
> *
> ...


You've been winning every day! Barrier to entry is its own reward.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> You've been winning every day! Barrier to entry is its own reward.


Maybe we should rechristen it AbsoluteWrite Urinal since there are now seemingly more on the outside pissing in than on the inside pissing out.


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## KCHawkings (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm a little late to the party, but congratulations on your release Brenna! I read the blurb and it caught me, then the price sealed the deal. I'm on a tight budget at the moment so I probably wouldn't have been able to one-click at a Big 5 price.

Good luck, and thank you for sharing your numbers! I've been contemplating NA and it's fascinating to see how everyone else is doing.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

S.W. Vaughn said:


> Oh, so late to the party...
> 
> Congratulations, Brenna! As someone who's experienced the joy of a traditional publishing deal -- only to get no support, watch sales plummet, and end up dropped like a hot rock -- I totally endorse your decision. For what it's worth, coming from some schmuck you don't know. LOL
> 
> ...


*waves* Hi Sonya!


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

> Maybe we should rechristen it AbsoluteWrite Urinal since there are now seemingly more on the outside pissing in than on the inside pissing out.


LMAO!

Now enjoy your caddle prodding. Maybe it'll even hurt in a good way.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I think someone made the right choice!

http://brennaaubrey.net/2014/01/12/the-first-month-of-publication-a-reckoning/

What a fascinating case study.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

Love these stories.

You went out and took a calculated risk that so many slammed you for, thinking you the fool, now you're vindicated in your gutsy decision. You must be smiling the biggest smile now. So cool. Good work.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Just saw the one month results blog post! Brenna, that's phenomenal. Congratulations, and extra congrats for sticking to your guns and knowing what your rights were worth! It's so great to see stories like this. Blazing the trail!


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Just read your blog post on your results.  Congratulations!  

Also, thank you so much for sharing that information.  Looking at the info, I think you definitely made the right choice!


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

Congrats on all the sales!! And that you don't have to wait for months for the check to arrive


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Congratulations, Brenna! What I love about this is that you demonstrate that you can have rock-star level earnings without breaking the top 100.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Congrats, Brenna!

You made Hugh Howey changed his profile photo!!!


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## jegarlick (Jun 23, 2013)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day. Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


You dared to be different. Good for you. The trad pub world doesn't like authors to think for themselves. They are all about scare tactics and ultimate control. They want to keep their authors fearful and begging, in a state of perpetual worry they will make a wrong move and be dropped, (which is essentially, what will happen, sadly) they don't like authors who challenge the status quo, ask questions, or think for themselves. They want the money. The money they earn off your back. How dare you decide to make the money yourself. They are fearful, and operating out of fear, because they are still running their business in a closed-mind archaic fashion. Basically, they run a dictatorship, that for 100's of years, people were begging to get into (myself included, not gonna lie) but to quote Bella Andrea, I've had my come-to-Jesus moment, and so have you and well, Jim Jones over there in NY has been left holding a lot of Kool-Aid, and he doesn't know what to do.

Carry on. You are an inspiration to the rest of us.  J


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Courtney Milan said:


> Congratulations, Brenna! What I love about this is that you demonstrate that you can have rock-star level earnings without breaking the top 100.


What would *you* know about *not* breaking the top 100?!


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Brenna said:


> Especially taking the time away from your busy job as CEO of the New Harper Collins!


You'd be shocked at how little I do around here.


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## Fishbowl Helmet (Jan 12, 2014)

Brenna said:


> Word. I've been dragged through the mud over there all day. Called a liar, a fraud, difficult, stubborn, and idiot who doesn't understand "big publishing business things." Poor little woman so unedumacated. Grrrr. Don't mind the smoke coming out of my ears. sigh.


Well, congrats on the book and the publicity.

There seems to be some instability and over reaction from various people on AW on a range of traditional vs self and paper vs digital issues. Some great writing advice here and there, but clearly trad publishing centric.


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## Sharon Cummin (Mar 19, 2013)

Congrats! That is awesome. It gives people new at self-publishing hope.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> What would *you* know about *not* breaking the top 100?!


I don't actually do it very often! That's why I feel like it's overrated.

I had one book dip its toe into the top 100 in the middle of December, and then jump out. I had a Bookbub ad in November that put another book (at 99 cents) in the top 100 for a day or two. Those were the only times I was in the top 100 at Amazon, and if you deleted the sales from those days, it would be like 2% of my indie earnings for 2013.

It's why when people judge things by the top-ranked books of the moment, I want to shake my head. I'd rather have a book at #1000 for an entire year than a book hit #50 for one day and then drop to #100,000 and stay there like a stone.

Which is why I think the MOST INTERESTING thing about Brenna's post is the consistency that she shows from week to week to week!


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## AriadneW (Feb 16, 2013)

So happy for you Brenna. That's such an awesome result after all the noise, and I'm sure it'll just get better.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Courtney Milan said:


> I don't actually do it very often! That's why I feel like it's overrated.
> 
> I had one book dip its toe into the top 100 in the middle of December, and then jump out. I had a Bookbub ad in November that put another book (at 99 cents) in the top 100 for a day or two. Those were the only times I was in the top 100 at Amazon, and if you deleted the sales from those days, it would be like 2% of my indie earnings for 2013.
> 
> ...


There is one author I always wonder about when I see her on the listings. Danelle Harmon. Her books have been consistently up there since she re-released her backlist. At some points in the top 100's but usually in the 1000's. They are always there and its been about since May 2012. I don't think she is on KB though, but I think consistency every time I see her books. And of course I think happy as her self publishing the backlist made her write again and she just released her first full length novel in a decade.

Of course I see yours too up there all the time Courtney. I don't like looking at just the top 100. Even drilling down to sub genres, I'd much rather look at like 1000's and so on. I swear there used to be a way to look at best selling beyond just 100. I used to do that and go down to 4000 on days when I was bored. Just to browse for stuff to read. Now I see no way to get there anymore. Its just new and popular now and that is not what I want. I want the list of everything sorted by what sells. Not what's new. When they took that away, I kind of stopped browsing much on Amazon for books.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

Forget congratulations on yet another successful indie author, I'd like to congratulate you as a gamer made good! (I swear I recognize your icon/pic from another forum--do you use it on gaming oriented ones?) I'll pick up the book when I get home, but I'm really cheered that an alt geeky main character can do well. I'm starting to peck at romance rather than smut and I've avoided using my own life experience because I wasn't sure how well it would go.

Make sure to do a post when you reach what would have been your earn out on the first book.

I met and miss some fantastic people on AW. The mods and their cronies are the only problem.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Thanks for sharing your data, Brenna. Here's hoping things go from strength to strength!


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## Ronny K (Aug 2, 2011)

Congrats, Brenna! You've unwittingly managed to become an inspiration. I think you made a great choice (although I've already seen your results).

One thing I'm desperately curious about: when you chose to walk away from the deal, how did you handle your relationship with your agent? You made it clear that you were upfront about not accepting just any deal, but I have to imagine that when a book goes to auction, your agent had some sort of hopes/expectations that were soon dashed. Obviously this may be too personal to answer, but I'm curious from a business standpoint. How does an author handle wanting to query publishers with the possibility of letting down the agent?


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## Shayne Parkinson (Mar 19, 2010)

This is such a great story, Brenna. Your results are already impressive, and I have a feeling you'll go from strength to strength. Congratulations!


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## LG Castillo (Jun 28, 2012)

Congratulations, Brenna! Thanks for sharing this great information. You're such an inspiration!


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

Congratulations, Brenna! What an inspiring story. Thank you for sharing it. 

(And boy, am I sad I missed the kerfuffle. I haven't put my head up high enough to be banned Over There, but the negativity and general feeling of the place leaves me not even wanting to leave completely neutral, technical information for posters. I'd actually forgotten to go there for the past 4-6 months.)


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Courtney Milan said:


> I don't actually do it very often! That's why I feel like it's overrated.
> 
> I had one book dip its toe into the top 100 in the middle of December, and then jump out. I had a Bookbub ad in November that put another book (at 99 cents) in the top 100 for a day or two. Those were the only times I was in the top 100 at Amazon, and if you deleted the sales from those days, it would be like 2% of my indie earnings for 2013.
> 
> ...


Yup. You speak the truth. I was just giving you a hard time for being awesome.

I don't have a book in the top 100 right now. My trips up there were brief. But my cumulative tally every week is still hard to believe.

I'm glad you brought attention to this.


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## 48306 (Jul 6, 2011)

Congratulations Brenna! Thank you for paying it forward and sharing. Doesn't it feel good to know you were right?  Can't wait to see where you go from here!


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

Brenna

Make sure you don't forget all your new KB friends and keep us updated on your debut's continued performance. Your first months success is very atypical but it's the kind of thing we all love to hear regardless. 

All the best


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## Paul Draker (Sep 11, 2013)

Congratulations on your success, Brenna.

And thank you for your transparency and willingness to share numbers.

I think a lot of writers make decisions they later regret because the traditional publishing industry actively discourages authors from talking about money.

You're helping a lot of folks with this.


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

Hooray! Congratulations -- what awesome numbers!!


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

> But I don't want people to think I'm bragging or rubbing success in the face of authors who are having a slower go of it.


Yeah, that's comes to the surface lately as a personal choice. There are haters out there with fingers hovering over 1 stars, ready to fire at any author who irks their sensibilities. It's up to you but I for one would like to hear updates.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Brenna, 

You are proving what I've said for a while now. If you have written a dang good book in a hot market, you're better off self-publishing. Readers will snatch it up. You'll earn way more on your own, and keep total control. (And you can be pretty sure you've written a dang good book if it goes to auction with the traditional publishers.)

If you've written something dang good, but for a smaller market, you're better off self-publishing also. Most mid-list authors make squat in the traditional publishing world. Many mid-list authors in the indie world are making hand over fist more than the traditionally published authors.

If you've written a mediocre book...go back and work on it until it's a dang good book.

That is all.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

Well I said I was going to buy it when I got home. I ended up staying up half the night and finished it on my abbreviated lunch hour. Loved it completely. Very inspiring to see a geek girl as the heroine.


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## Writer1000 (Jul 28, 2013)

Congrats, Brenna! Thanks for sharing.


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## Ava Ayers (Jan 16, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> This bodes well. My career positively took off after being called nasty things on that site.


Excellent! If the theory is correct, I'm hoping the lashing I took over there three years ago, that still stings, by the way, was worth it! Congrats, Brenna


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

So exciting to read this! Congratulations!


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

Stop reading anti-indie hate-group pages and write. I want the second book!


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

> Stop reading anti-indie hate-group pages and write. I want the second book!


Exactly! Silence the _"Oh, she'll never make that much on her own. She's stupid..." _haters by having another $19k+ debut month.


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

Congrats Brenna.  You rock it girl!

Now all you need is a movie deal.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Somehow I missed that thread while I was arguing with others over the merits of Kanye West punching a racist a-hole in the face.


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

> technically I'll never have "another debut month"


Duh. I meant release month, as in book #2.


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## YolyM (Jul 15, 2013)

Just finished the book last night, and I gotta say, I can totally tell why there where multiple people bidding on it. It was seriously amazing. Loved the characters and the unique story line. Congrats Brenna on doing what was right for you


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Perhaps I missed it in the thread somewhere, but how to you manage such a fantastic start out-of-the-gate? Now, obviously, it's a good book so that helps a lot   : But what did you do in the way of marketing to help build the buzz?


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

I just re-read my post and I sounded like kind of a jerk or something. Sorry about that, not my intention at all. 

Okay, good info. I was just curious and am now sated. Or something.  I just tackled Google Play and wrestled it to the ground. I don't know if I'm up for Goodreads just yet. 

Thanks very much for answering, Brenna. And massive congrats on your success.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I was curious so bought it today and read it in one sitting. Loved it! (But now I have eye strain.)


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Brenna will be my tomorrow night read.   So do you prefer Lavender and Chamomille or White Tea & Jasmine Bubble bath?

Great 1st month btw.


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## chrisstevenson (Aug 10, 2012)

Good for you, Brenna. Excellent post.  Man, I'm really liking the term "Hybrid" author. That's what I am. And I yam what I yam what I yam.

chris


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Wow, that twitter feed! What a silly thing to do! The problem with the internet is that everyone forgets they are dealing with real people. You become a forum name, or an avatar, or a blog post, and people genuinely disconnect from what they are saying/doing. 

Anyway, good luck with the book, although it sounds like you don't need the luck part.


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## KCHawkings (Jul 20, 2011)

I really loved your book, Brenna. Read it in one sitting and was definitely tickled by all the MMORPG references. I grew up with WoW.


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## KCHawkings (Jul 20, 2011)

Brenna said:


> KC... YAY for MMORPG refugees!! So glad I kicked that habit or I never would have ever written a book, LOL. But it sure as heck was fun while it lasted!
> 
> SO THRILLED you loved the book. Thanks for letting me know.


I was absolutely gutted when Burning crusade came out. My computer barely handled it to begin with, wouldn't even let me install that one. So tempting to go back to DotA every now and then.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Hey, I don't play any games, and I'm not even sure what a MMORPG is - will I still enjoy the book?


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## KCHawkings (Jul 20, 2011)

beccaprice said:


> Hey, I don't play any games, and I'm not even sure what a MMORPG is - will I still enjoy the book?


If you enjoy NA you'll probably enjoy this. Looking back I_ think _the gaming references are pretty understandable in context.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Thanks - I have a fantastic cover artist.

I bought your book, but it might be awhile before I get to it.  Back in mid-November, I picked up the complete works of Andrew Lang, expecting to get only his color fairy tale books, but when they said complete, they meant it - the fact that they give a warning that it's a really big file and may take longer to download should have warned me,  It's the only thing I've been reading since I got the book, and I haven't hit the 50% read mark yet.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

The gaming is easy to understand.  Wonderful book so far.


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## UnicornEmily (Jul 2, 2011)

emilycantore said:


> I was having a discussion with a writer friend recently who has a trad publishing offer on the table. It came down to one point: you're either as good as they think you are or you're not.
> 
> If you're not and you take the deal then you become one of those authors who gets a big advance and fails to earn it out. Career over. Change names. Keep going.
> 
> ...


That's a very good point. I hadn't thought about it that way.

Of course, traditional publishers have routes that we self-published authors don't have (like, say, getting physical books in book stores, and to some extent the ability to do large print runs that have really neat stuff like cover embossing on books).

But the draconian contracts really are a turnoff for me. I'd love to find a traditional publisher that wants to publish my books and that has a fair contract, because I'd love to have a few partners who are very experienced and very invested in helping me succeed. I think this is possible to do in self-publishing, however; just not quite as easy.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> I don't actually do it very often! That's why I feel like it's overrated.
> 
> I had one book dip its toe into the top 100 in the middle of December, and then jump out. I had a Bookbub ad in November that put another book (at 99 cents) in the top 100 for a day or two. Those were the only times I was in the top 100 at Amazon, and if you deleted the sales from those days, it would be like 2% of my indie earnings for 2013.
> 
> ...


This. Consistency of sales over time equals a lower rank, but not necessarily lower money.


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## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)




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## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

Congrats on your Milestone

http://brennaaubrey.net/2014/04/27/milestone/



> Upon publication (approximately October 2014) I would have received the balance of 85% of $40,000 for At Any Price (the full sum minus the agent's fee). This amounts to $34,000.
> 
> The book released on December 9, 2013. By the end of the day on April 15, 2014, I'd sold 16,331 books with a total earned of $36,031. Subtracting the costs involved in production of the book, $1,827 (which I detailed in this blog post), this amounts to a net of $34,204.
> 
> Four months after publication, I hit the milestone of "selling through" what my advance would have been had I published traditionally.


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## kiwifruit (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm so happy for Brenna and have been following her journey, cheering from the South Pacific. Thanks for posting this update Vevo


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Congrats, Brenna. I'm glad you're doing so well.

One thing that's not really touched on in your blog post is whether you're doing so well _because _ you turned down a large advance. From what I've seen, the act of saying 'no' has gained you a lot of attention and publicity. In a way, it makes it hard to compare self-published you against trad-pubbed you.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Congrats, Brenna. I'm glad you're doing so well.
> 
> One thing that's not really touched on in your blog post is whether you're doing so well _because _ you turned down a large advance. From what I've seen, the act of saying 'no' has gained you a lot of attention and publicity. In a way, it makes it hard to compare self-published you against trad-pubbed you.


I used to think this too, about other things that have happened int he industry, but then I talked with other authors and readers about it, and the thing is? We authors and industry types are in a very close knit community. It doesn't seem like it sometimes, but 9 times out of 10, readers don't know (and don't care) about any of this stuff. They don't know who the publishers of the books they read are (unless it's majorly branded like Harlequin), they don't know all the industry gossip or what goes into making and selling a book. It would be tantamount to going to a restaurant and spending your time thinking about the hostess, or what the back of the house is doing, or how many bottles of vodka the bar manager had to order from the liquor distributor for the week.

No one gives a crap.

The experience is coming and enjoying a meal. That's the average reader, to me. They don't care about the rest, so while this news may have gotten a lot of play within the industry, I would venture to guess 95% of Brenna's 16,000 downloads had no clue about any of this. In fact, I've been in the industry for a while now, and try to stay on top of things, and even I didn't know about this. I could be totally wrong, but whenever I talk to average readers (unless they are bloggers and/or entrenched in the community) they never seem to be aware of even the biggest dust ups or news in publishing. Just my .02!

And congrats, Brenna, this is AWESOME!


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Brenna said:


> Thank you, Elliot. Of course it is impossible to look at how I would have done on the other side without the publicity of turning down the book deal. HOWEVER, I'm certain that my publisher would have leveraged the "big deal" in places like PW, etc (those deals get a lot of pubilcity there and that's why they put them there). I, too, would have probably not been shy about saying that I'd signed a 6 figure deal for the books. The auction and the offers were definitely a feather in the cap either way and probably would have been used as much either way. Granted, my story was more unusual by turning the offers down. Publishers use news like this to their benefit also.


That's a great point.

For the record: I think it's great that you turned it into a publicity opportunity. I also think the publicity helps raise the profile of self-pubbers in general, and highlighted some of the issues with trad-pub contracts.


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## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

not sure if this has been posted. Saw it on the PassiveVoice so I thought an update to this thread is in order.

http://brennaaubrey.net/2014/12/07/one-year-no-regrets/
One Year: No Regrets



> Below is a screenshot from an email of one of the offers from a Big 5 publisher. There is no identifying information here, but I thought it would be interesting to include this, especially the bonus structure based on the sales they expected the book to make in its first year.
> 
> Book one would have been published last month sometime. Books two and three would have been published in 2015, so I would still be waiting on this money below. And it's unsure how close I could have come to this bonus structure had I gone the traditional route.
> 
> ...


p.s. Congratulation Brenna and thank you for sharing.


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## delly_xo (Oct 29, 2014)

love this <3. very inspirational.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

At any price is free today.


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## Julz (Oct 30, 2014)

Wow! What an incredible journey


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

Superbly inspiring. Read most of the posts here. And nabbed the book too (it's free on KDP right now!)

Go, Brenna, go!!


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Brenna,

Don't know you; never met you. Support you 100%!

Indies make it with their own sweat & toil, and what's the first thing that happens?
The sharks come sniffing around.

Let them go make their money off King and Paterson and D. Brown. Isn't that enough?

I hope other Indies continue to turn these exploiters down. About all they're good for is
a paperback deal, but even there it may not be worth getting entangled with these
#@*#.

We've been slandered by trad-pub for years, called every dirty name in the book, and yet
the minute one of us gets anywhere, starts selling, climbing up the charts...there they are...
wanting to get their grubby hands in. Hell with all of 'em.

Just remember what they put that genius John Kennedy Toole through. Remember
A Confederacy of Dunces? Comedy masterpiece. They jerked him around until the man took his
life.  

Anyway, love the way you handled it, Brenna. It's not easy to turn down any offer these days.
That took real backbone/intestinal fortitude.  

Best, 

K.


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## delly_xo (Oct 29, 2014)

Brenna said:


> Thanks again, VEVO, for the shout out and thanks to the rest of you for your well wishes and congratulations. It has been an amazing year! I've made friends on Kboards and have learned so much from all of you... it was time to give back what I've learned. I hope every indie continues to pay it forward because I honestly think that we all, as a community are stronger for it.
> 
> And yes, if you are interested, AT ANY PRICE, the book that started all this brouhaha is FREE. Tell a friend or 2 dozen friends! Thank you!!!! xoxo


I can't stop reading this book. I downloaded it and I'm reading it in hallways, elevators, walking on the street (btw, if I get hit by a bus in NYC, it's your fault (j/k)). The writing is great, story-line is phenomenal and I want to know what happens but it not be over all at the same time. About mid-way through. I'm totally jealous, but also happy for your phenomenal success. It's well-deserved.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I got it when it first came out.


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## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

Just a small update since I bookmarked this thread and today went to look to see the result of making Book 1 Free.  

Book 1 is #73 Free in Kindle Store
Book 2 is currently #447 Paid
Book 3 is currently #504 Paid


It looks like making it FREE is paying off.  I wasn't totally sold on that strategy since Book 1 was still selling very well.  Making it free seems risky.  If you read this, can you explain what make you decide to do this?

And is the result living up to your expectation?


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

Thanks for all the strategic info Brenna. You're a huge help to everyone here. All the best.


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