# Oberon Cardboard vs. Plastic Inserts (photos)



## kuklachica (Dec 26, 2010)

Some people asked for pictures of the two different inserts, so I took some this morning. Sorry that they are not great quality 

The plastic insert is from a 2 month old Oberon, the cardboard is from a 1 week old Oberon. The plastic insert is black, the cardboard is grey.

The cardboard is much thicker than the plastic, but also weighs more. The plastic will hold up better over the long-term (probably as long as the cover itself should last) but the cardboard seems as if the edges will start fraying soon and will break down very easily. Also, there is very little give to it, so if it bends, it seems it will crease or stay bent unlike the plastic.

The cardboard insert is also smaller than the plastic insert!? Not sure why? They both came from Kindle 3 covers.






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## kuklachica (Dec 26, 2010)

I made some quick plastic inserts with craft mesh. They seem to weigh less than the cardboard, but still give it stiffness. They also allow for more "breath-ability" than the cardboard. Just an idea if you prefer plastic! I smoothed down any rough edges with a nail filer.




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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks for the photos.  Maye the cardboard is smaller to take into account the additional thickness.

The change isn't enough to every keep me from ordering an Oberon ever again although I don't like it.  I was thinking about the Woodgrain one but since this isn't a must have, it has changed my mind (for now at least) about ordering one.  If I do buy one again, I would make my own plastic stiffners since I have these now and they would be my preference rather than the heavier, cheaper cardboard.  I hope Oberon will re-think this if the majority of their customers are not happy with the cost-saving cardboard option.  Honestly how much could that really be saving them per cover?  And will that cost savings make a difference in their bottom line if it cuts down on sales because people feel they are cutting corners and cheapening the product?


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## AlleyGator (Mar 25, 2011)

Thank you so much for showing the pictures, kuklachica. Since I have only had the cardboard inserts in my Oberon cover, I'm not missing the plastic, however, I think I will buy some of this plastic mesh and make some inserts just to see if I like the plastic better.

BTW, the cardboard in my cover is heavy and black.


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## kuklachica (Dec 26, 2010)

No problem. The cardboard in my husband's cover (in the pics) seems pretty heavy-duty. Thicker than a cardboard box, but not as durable as plastic, I think? Maybe like two "shoe-box" type cardboard pieces thick? But definitely heavier than the plastic. 

I don't think the craft mesh will be as stiff as the cardboard, but I think it is almost as stiff as the plastic. It is also much more forgiving than the cardboard should it be bent and has no oil retention, of course. I think you can buy different "gauge" mesh at larger craft stores, so you might find one that is stiffer. I had this left over from making fish tank dividers for the bettas I used to have


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## AlleyGator (Mar 25, 2011)

Thanks, kuklachica. I suppose I can find this plastic mesh at a craft store like, Michael's.


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## Alicia P (Jan 13, 2011)

I bet one of those flexible plastic cutting boards cut to size would work perfectly for anyone who doesn't like the cardboard, and they are usually pretty inexpensive too...


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## Bonbonlover (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks for the photo's. I like the idea of cutting your own plastic. I think it was mentioned on the other thread... or perhaps Facebook site... that you could cut an old binder... that plastic would be a similar thickness and weight as the "old" plastic used in the K3's. 

But for $69 dollars, we shouldn't have to jury rig a solution... Bad Oberon!!


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## SamIam (Mar 3, 2011)

Good comparison of the two, thanks for sharing


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## AlleyGator (Mar 25, 2011)

Alicia P said:


> I bet one of those flexible plastic cutting boards cut to size would work perfectly for anyone who doesn't like the cardboard, and they are usually pretty inexpensive too...


Great idea...and I do have a couple of these.


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## PraiseGod13 (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks so much for your pictures!!  You did an excellent job showing the comparison of the two.  Using the craft mesh plastic is a good idea.... and it does come in different thicknesses.  You can find it anywhere they sell craft supplies... Michael's, Hobby Lobby, JoAnn's Fabrics, Ben Franklin etc.


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## dharts (Feb 15, 2011)

Have you all considered calling Oberon and asking if they have plastic inserts left over they could send you?


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## Holly (Mar 8, 2011)

Oberon have stated that they no longer will come with plastic and the choice is not an option.


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## Bonbonlover (Oct 17, 2010)

Holly said:


> Oberon have stated that they no longer will come with plastic and the choice is not an option.


Seems extremely short sited. The company is willing to loose customer satisfaction over a piece of plastic...


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks for the great photos and no we are not losing customers over plastic, in reality the cardboard costs more due to the stock.

We took a survey a few months back asking custsomers what they prefer, most were fine either way and many said they remove them all together. We decided since the cardboard was greener if people were disposing of them (they are also MUCh sturdier) this was the route we wanted to take. We did address this when we were asked directly in your email as well.  

Thanks again!


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## kuklachica (Dec 26, 2010)

I received a response to my question about the material changes today. I missed the survey on Facebook (I don't think I knew about Oberon at that time, so hadn't "liked" them yet). That is my loss! I'm not too worried about the cardboard changes, was just curious why or how they changed it. Now I know!


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

I think taking a survey here would have given them a better sampling than Facebook.


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## Holly (Mar 8, 2011)

maries said:


> I think taking a survey here would have given them a better sampling than Facebook.


I think so as well. Just bought some flexible plastic cutting board to have on hand when I order my next cover. Many on facebook are waiting for their first to arrive or a few Oberon fans with so much free time that respond to every post.

New customers will not know about the plastic, so it is unlikely that Oberon will receive representative feedback and the issue will die quickly.


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

To be honest we may have done a poll here but I don't remember. We have many of the same members here and FB and as you said it has not been a big issue but we appreciate the feedback


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## Neo (Mar 30, 2009)

OberonDesign.com said:


> Thanks for the great photos and no we are not losing customers over plastic, in reality the cardboard costs more due to the stock.
> 
> We took a survey a few months back asking custsomers what they prefer, most were fine either way and many said they remove them all together. We decided since the cardboard was greener if people were disposing of them (they are also MUCh sturdier) this was the route we wanted to take. We did address this when we were asked directly in your email as well.
> 
> Thanks again!


Interesting, as the person on Facebook mentioned the contrary on costs (this is the quote):

"Its not an option, it was a company decision. it also helps with costs as well. I am sorry Smiley We have no plans to bring back the old ones."

To be honest, and having received the cardboard inserts (and having had the plastic ones before), it is true that they are way more rigid to start with, but they are not sturdier, as they become "mushy" when bent or humid (one of mine arrived already bent ). Someone also mentioned that there is green plastic available nowadays.

As another person posted: this will probably not stop me from ordering Oberons in the future, but I do feel that it's a pity the company has decided to go this route, as, to be honest, it does feel kind of cheap.

Thank you though for coming here and taking the time to post and respond to our concerns, that is always appreciated


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

OberonDesign.com said:


> To be honest we may have done a poll here but I don't remember. We have many of the same members here and FB and as you said it has not been a big issue but we appreciate the feedback


It is a big issue to me. And it doesn't really seem like you want or care about the feedback on this issue. IMO making a beautiful leather cover and sticking cardboard in rather than the thinner, lighter, more flexible plastic is tacky and cheap besides making the cover heavier. But my husband is happy that I have no desire to purchase something for a change! I'm sure I will find something else to lust after. Maybe the people that were going to throw out the plastic could have just requested that the cover come without it? Seems more like a win-win decision than the one that was made. But that is only my opinion but since I don't do faceook that opinion obviously doesn't matter even though we have purchased 3 Oberon covers.


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

We care about all customers and many factors were considered in making the decision. Internally and externally. We have done many customer polls on several sites and I'm sorry but I can't recall if we did one here but that was only part of the decision.  It wasn't meant to exclude.

  As of now this is the route we have changed over too. Anytime we have made changes some people are going to prefer the old way and we do take that into account but overall we feel as of now this is a better and greener choice since we want to make sure our covers were 100% . Those plastic covers were not. Thanks for understanding.


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## Bonbonlover (Oct 17, 2010)

maries said:


> It is a big issue to me. And it doesn't really seem like you want or care about the feedback on this issue. IMO making a beautiful leather cover and sticking cardboard in rather than the thinner, lighter, more flexible plastic is tacky and cheap besides making the cover heavier. But my husband is happy that I have no desire to purchase something for a change! I'm sure I will find something else to lust after. Maybe the people that were going to throw out the plastic could have just requested that the cover come without it? Seems more like a win-win decision than the one that was made. But that is only my opinion but since I don't do faceook that opinion obviously doesn't matter even though we have purchased 3 Oberon covers.


Agree. It is a big issue to me. Cardboard does not hold its corners well. But to me it is even bigger. It shows me that Oberon is willing to cut quality... I may not notice the next quality cut... What different dyes? lower quality leather? I can no longer feel that Oberon is out to supply the best... I guess I will have to turn my obsession to Noreve Covers... and Saddleback Sleeves. I can count on those companies not cutting quality.


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## kuklachica (Dec 26, 2010)

Bonbonlover said:


> It shows me that Oberon is willing to cut quality...


This is just for my own sake to clarify and sum up what I have read here, on the facebook page, and the other threads in this board.

It seems to me that there are two very different interpretations of this change.
*
From the Oberon HQ's point-of-view* this is a _quality improvement_ (from their comments: more "green", cost is actually higher than plastic, easier to throw away (though, this I find hard to understand as an "improvement"- why would you encourage people to throw away part of their purchase?)).

*From Oberon's Facebook page rep's point-of-view*, this is a _quality improvement _to be more green and to cut costs (see screen shot of the comment for verification).

*From many of the customers' points-of-view*, the change may be more green, but the overall change is a _decrease in quality_. The cardboard is less resilient and overall "cheap" for such an expensive case. The customers were informed that this was to be more green (seems most people could go either way on this) and also to CUT COSTS (but have not seen a corresponding price-savings to the consumers). This leaves the customers to be frustrated and reluctant to order in the future not knowing what changes will have been made without their knowledge. Whether there is true savings on Oberon's part seems to be inaccurate, however, this was the information that was given to their customers on facebook and then on to various forums.

It seems that this could have just been handled better with the change being announced a week or two before it was put in place and inaccurate "cost-saving" comments not being shared with the customers.

Plus, I thought plastic was bad and paper was good?? When did grocery stores go back to plastic anyway?? I can never keep up with the latest green changes!! (this was a total unrelated side-note!).



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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

We have not changed our quality. We changed an insert for several reasons. Like most companies we do not announce changes in advance. We made a decision to go green with this item. This is NOT cheap cardboard stock but a thick substantial insert. 

I think there is an assumption this is some type of card stock and that is not the case as all. Right now, as stated we have made the choice for a variety of reasons and when we took the surveys months ago we had no real objection to the changes. Again we always appreciate the input and thank you for all your comments


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## Bonbonlover (Oct 17, 2010)




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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

LOL.. cute clip.. but you know that movie is 43 years old .. they didn't have the eco friendly items we do now.. thanks for the memory though I had not seen this in a long time


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## Yossarian (Jun 8, 2010)

It seems to me that the "greener" and less expensive route would be to let those of us who will never use the inserts to order our covers without them. The very first thing I do when I get one is pull the inserts out and discard them. Seems a waste, no matter what the materials.


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## Alicia P (Jan 13, 2011)

Just a thought here, but won't cardboard soak the natural oils out of the leather over time? Eventually making the leather dry (for the people who may not know they need to reapply oil) and the cardboard less sturdy (or soggy even, for the people who like to oil alot)? If the cardboard gets soaked with oil will it mildew inside the pockets or has it been treated in someway so it won't? Some people like to slide their hand into the pocket when they read, will the cardboard start to smell if the person happens to have sweaty hands? If the cardboard inserts get bent or otherwise deformed, will replacements be offered?


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## Pushka (Oct 30, 2009)

I didnt use the plastic inserts, but I didnt throw them away either.  I can understand using cardboard if the inserts were designed to be thrown away once the kindle is inserted, but I cant understand using cardboard if they were meant to be a permanent fixture of the cover.  Cardboard and quality leather just dont seem to go together to me. But maybe plastic doesnt either, but at least it lasts.  Whether or not they get thrown away or used, I think it is a good idea for the covers to be shipped with the card/plastic insert.

Green, green, what is green.  Our state recently banned the use of plastic bags for shipping.  Seems like a good idea, but then someone advised that the process of making the 'green bags' was more harmful than the plastic bags.


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## mommacomet (Feb 15, 2011)

I am new to the Oberon world and since I just got my first cover it came with cardboard.  I cut some heavy plastic (binder) since everyone seems to so stuck on how much better it is to see how I liked it.  Honestly, I hated it.  It felt cheap.  If your worried about the cardboard soaking up oils and such go get some simple laminate covering (I buy mine at places like Walmart, Staples) that comes in sheets and cover the cardboard inserts.  It would then make them so they wouldn't absorb any oils, moisture, etc as well as make them feel more like the plastic inserts that you were used to (slicker)  For now mine are going to remain the plain old cardboard and I am also looking into getting some stiff leather (kind you would use for tooling) and see how that feels.  

I spent a long time to decide what cover to get for my Kindle and they by far were the best deal for the price.  I looked at a lot of covers and many of them not much cheaper than what I paid for the Oberon.  When you look at durability (the Oberon will last way past the life of the Kindle I am sure)as the leather will stand the test of time (and the inserts are not needed when you really think about it) and its of exceptional quality.  I can't see fussing over an insert because the insert defiantly doesn't make or break the Oberon value and quality.  Its a fine leather good.  Even after your Kindle has long since died and you have moved onto the newest one the cover can either be used for the next one (provided that Amazon would for once make the next version the same size as you have) it can be reused for something else because of the way it is made.  

Every company has to make changes throughout the years in order to stay in business and grow.  The fact that Oberon in this economy and times of mass produced automation make such fine leather product speaks volumes.  I will be a customer for a long time and have already told many people about Oberon since I have received my cover. Those that have seen the cover it has sold itself.   Looking forward to owning and purchasing many Oberon products as gifts in the future.

**on a side note all those other covers made of material/thin leather have a filler in between the material to make them stiff.  I can bet that the majority of the fillers are cardboard.


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

I would throw away the cardboard.  I wouldn't throw away the plastic.  If I ever buy another Oberon again (and at this time that is a BIG IF) I would make my own plastic ones.

I don't believe that cardboard will hold up over time no matter the quality of the cardboard.  A recycled plastic would have been a better option - IMO.  Along with info on the web site regarding these and the option to exclude the insert if people prefer.  Or just cut out some cardboard ones if people request cardboard.

Per "the poll" (some) people throw out the plastic stiffners so spend more money to replace this with a cardboard stiffner that they will throw out.  This makes no sense to me!  I'm in management and from a business perspective I can't see the rationale to support that this was a good direction to go.


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

maries said:


> I would throw away the cardboard. I wouldn't throw away the plastic. If I ever buy another Oberon again (and at this time that is a BIG IF) I would make my own plastic ones.
> 
> I don't believe that cardboard will hold up over time no matter the quality of the cardboard. It will also add to the weight. A recycled plastic would have been a better option - IMO. Along with info on the web site regarding these and the option to exclude the insert if people prefer. Or just cut out some cardboard ones if people request cardboard.
> 
> Per "the poll" (some) people throw out the plastic stiffners so spend more money to replace this with a cardboard stiffner that they will throw out. This makes no sense to me! I'm in management and from a business perspective I can't see the rationale to support that this was a good direction to go.


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## kimbertay (Sep 16, 2009)

I also don't believe that changing from the plastic inserts to cardboard is a good move.  It does seem cheap and I agree with others that I don't believe it will hold up like the plastic would.

I love my Oberon cover and have purchased 3 in the past year and half.  But, Oberon covers are expensive purchases and as such should be quality all the way.  Cardboard whether "substantial" or not just is not something that will hold up like the cover itself.

Hopefully, if enough customers feel this way about the new insert change, Oberon might reconsider.

JMO


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## JeffM (Nov 22, 2009)

I don't understand why you all are wound up so tight on this. It's not an exposed part. I don't see it as Oberon taking a dive on a quality product at all.


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## Bonbonlover (Oct 17, 2010)

If your on a budget, cardboard is most definitely the inexpensive option, however if you are searching for a more eco-friendly and durable option, its best to stick too plastic.
http://www.articlesalley.com/article.detail.php/137358/216/Accessories/Home/27/Plastic_vs._cardboard

When considered over the lifetime of the packaging, paper and cardboard embody far more greenhouse gases than their plastic equivalents. 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/31/plastics-cardboard


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## mistyd107 (May 22, 2009)

JeffM said:


> I don't understand why you all are wound up so tight on this. It's not an exposed part. I don't see it as Oberon taking a dive on a quality product at all.


ITA with this!!!!!! I still love my oberon's and will be ordering more soon. I seriously doubt Oberon would have made this minor change to an INSERT if it would result in a down grade in their amazing quality...JMHO


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## manou (Sep 5, 2010)

I personally think the most environmental friendly move would have been to give options to the customer at check out:
No insert
Carboard insert
Plastic insert


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

Mommacommet thank you for your kind words! 

The bottom line is this was a company decision by the owners as a greener alternative. This is not flimsy card stock and it's not going to absorb oils because you don't handle it and we do not suggest you ever use oils on our products. 

This was done through research and careful consideration and the insert was chosen carefully to provide durability. 

As stated many of the mass produced covers on the market do have non removable cardboard and if  you don't have mildew issues with those you are not going to have it here. 

We take pride in what we do. We make everything to order and with meticulous detail with you in mind. We have been around almost 40 years and we are not going to anything to damage our product, reputation and your faith in us that you will receive a superior product. 

The current inserts actually cost us more then the plastic does and it's thicker but we felt the entire cover needed to be green. It is something the owner is passionate about.

We hope you understand the motivation better and as customers you are very much appreciated. 

Please understand why we made the change and why it's staying in place. Thank you!


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## mommacomet (Feb 15, 2011)

OberonDesign.com said:


> Mommacommet thank you for your kind words!
> 
> Your so very welcome ~
> 
> Peg


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

Isn't the cardboard in the pocket where you they show you can put your hand to hold the Oberon so in that case it will come in contact with skin and be handled?  

What has turned me off besides the cardboard itself, is how the info was communicated (or not communicated until someone received one with the cardboard).  And the lack of consistency in the explanation - survey, company decision etc......    It doesn't seem like anyone saw this survey either here or on facebook or on the Amazon Kindle discussion thread.  I currently do not have much respect for the company due to this decision and (IMO) their poor communication.    I still contend that a green option was possible without going to cardboard.  While I have no control over the decisions and business practices of Oberon, I can express my opinion by no longer purchasing from the company or recommending them to anyone else.


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## Pushka (Oct 30, 2009)

Is leather green?


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## manou (Sep 5, 2010)

maries said:


> Isn't the cardboard in the pocket where you they show you can put your hand to hold the Oberon so in that case it will come in contact with skin and be handled?
> 
> What has turned me off besides the cardboard itself, is how the info was communicated (or not communicated until someone received one with the cardboard). And the lack of consistency in the explanation - survey, company decision etc...... It doesn't seem like anyone saw this survey either here or on facebook or on the Amazon Kindle discussion thread. I currently do not have much respect for the company due to this decision and (IMO) their poor communication. I still contend that a green option was possible without going to cardboard. While I have no control over the decisions and business practices of Oberon, I can express my opinion by no longer purchasing from the company or recommending them to anyone else.


I am with you there. I was on the fence ordering either a blue Da Vinci or a blue Butterfly for my Kindle. I certainly wouldn't want card board in it (I use plastic sheets in the covers I make) - I also wouldn't want to go out and buy/cut plastic sheets to put into a cover that is fairly expensive already.
Looks like I am going to spend my money elsewhere...


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## KindleGirl (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm actually fine with the new cardboard inserts. I think it makes it even more sturdy than it already was. When I received my new cover last week I noticed that something was different about how it felt but couldn't put my finger on what was different until I removed the insert to put the charm on the bungee cord. The inserts are not something I handle much, or see for that matter. If it really bothered me I would switch them with one of my other covers or take them out completely.


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## mistyd107 (May 22, 2009)

Pushka said:


> Is leather green?


actually yes it is


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## Pushka (Oct 30, 2009)

mistyd107 said:


> actually yes it is


Nope.

"Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars

By Geoffrey Lean, Environment Editor

Sunday, 10 December 2006

Meet the world's top destroyer of the environment. It is not the car, or the plane,or even George Bush: it is the cow. "

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/cow-emissions-more-damaging-to-planet-than-cosub2sub-from-cars-427843.html

The first item found on google using search terms "cows and carbon footprints"


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## Alicia P (Jan 13, 2011)

Pushka said:


> "Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars
> 
> By Geoffrey Lean, Environment Editor
> 
> ...


While that is true about the cow emissions, it's also true that people eat cows and lots of them, and that is not something that is going to change anytime soon. So using the hides and not wasting them is in fact part of the reduce/reuse/recycle program and would be considered green.


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## Moosh (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't get what the big deal is either. Don't like it? Take it out. Want plastic? Get your own, it's cheap as chips. 

I'm certainly not going to let something so trivial stop me from continuing to purchase and love quality Oberon products.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Moosh said:


> I don't get what the big deal is either. Don't like it? Take it out. Want plastic? Get your own, it's cheap as chips.
> 
> I'm certainly not going to let something so trivial stop me from continuing to purchase and love quality Oberon products.


QFT.

I don't know how I'll ever get over the Cardboard Catastrophe of 2011.


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

Moosh said:


> I don't get what the big deal is either. Don't like it? Take it out. Want plastic? Get your own, it's cheap as chips.
> 
> I'm certainly not going to let something so trivial stop me from continuing to purchase and love quality Oberon products.


I wonder if anyone ever took out the plastic and replaced it with cardboard?

That's great that you don't have an issue with this. IMO, it remains a poor decision that may not be a huge thing alone despite being handled very poorly. But on top of some other recent things reported by KBers and the communication regarding the cardboard decision has made this significant enough for me to decide I don't want to do business with this company. If I see a change in their attitude toward their customers and my perception of quality, I may change my mind but right now I will spend my money elsewhere.


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

maries said:


> I wonder if anyone ever took out the plastic and replaced it with cardboard?
> 
> That's great that you don't have an issue with this. IMO, it remains a poor decision that may not be a huge thing alone despite being handled very poorly. But on top of some other recent things reported by KBers and the communication regarding the cardboard decision has made this significant enough for me to decide I don't want to do business with this company. If I see a change in their attitude toward their customers and my perception of quality, I may change my mind but right now I will spend my money elsewhere.


We are sorry to lose you, however I don't see how we have been hostile, we have explained it over and over again. Also I dont' know any other company that announces changes up front. We did this with much consideration and have explained the reasons, we have personally emailed the few that have written to our CS person and I have posted it here in several places so I am not sure at this point what else we can do. We appreciate your support in the past we we hope to have you back someday as a customer. Thanks!


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## Sheldon (Feb 4, 2011)

maries said:


> I wonder if anyone ever took out the plastic and replaced it with cardboard?
> 
> That's great that you don't have an issue with this. IMO, it remains a poor decision that may not be a huge thing alone despite being handled very poorly. But on top of some other recent things reported by KBers and the communication regarding the cardboard decision has made this significant enough for me to decide I don't want to do business with this company. If I see a change in their attitude toward their customers and my perception of quality, I may change my mind but right now I will spend my money elsewhere.
> 
> ...


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks Sheldon! We appreciate all of our customers and can't wait until you get your products, we would love to hear about it!


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## bordercollielady (Nov 21, 2008)

I haven't  ordered an  Oberon  for awhile  so wasn't aware of  a change..but  I take out the inserts anyway so  it wouldn't matter to me.


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## Pushka (Oct 30, 2009)

Alicia P said:


> While that is true about the cow emissions, it's also true that people eat cows and lots of them, and that is not something that is going to change anytime soon. So using the hides and not wasting them is in fact part of the reduce/reuse/recycle program and would be considered green.


While it doesnt quite work that way with hides for leather and cows being eaten/used for milk, I get a little weary of the green issue being used for decision making, when there is a far bigger picture involved.

As moosh said, it wouldnt stop me buying an oberon cover if I wanted one. I think that it is more about the process involved in this decision that is getting people a little antsy. I am an interested observer and as I didnt use the plastic inserts anyway (but kept them if I later wanted to sell the oberon) then it doesnt much matter to me. I do like the look of the 'envelopes' just announced though.


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## Moosh (Dec 22, 2009)

It's such a minor part of the product, I wouldn't expect an announcement for it, nor consultation with past and potential customers. It's not like the leather is thin and _needs_ a 'stabiliser', it's just s bonus IMO.

Maybe I'm just easily pleased.


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## kuklachica (Dec 26, 2010)

Thank you, Oberon, for taking the time to explain the reason for your change and answering our questions! I was a little unsure of the change at the beginning, but after thinking about it and seeing the card stock first hand, it's not a big deal to me. It's a bit disappointing since it won't be quite as long lasting as plastic, but I can always change it with the plastic craft mesh or something else I have around my house. Not a big deal. 

I know I have been skeptical in the past of some of the shipping/communication experiences I've had with Oberon, but this time they have really gone out of their way to explain it and respond personally and very quickly. Thank you for your time and great products!!


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

OberonDesign.com said:


> We are sorry to lose you, however I don't see how we have been hostile, we have explained it over and over again. Also I dont' know any other company that announces changes up front. We did this with much consideration and have explained the reasons, we have personally emailed the few that have written to our CS person and I have posted it here in several places so I am not sure at this point what else we can do. We appreciate your support in the past we we hope to have you back someday as a customer. Thanks!


I never said hostile.


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## Bonbonlover (Oct 17, 2010)

I hope that Oberon will re-consider their decision as it has not gone over well with a good percentage of their customers.


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

Bonbonlover said:


> I hope that Oberon will re-consider their decision as it has not gone over well with a good percentage of their customers.


I really don't think that's the case... I think it's a very, very small percentage (between here and Facebook I've only seen a couple of complaints) that have an issue. Most of us really don't care because we throw them out anyway, double them up to make them thicker, or ignore them altogether. I've seen many more posts over the years actually asking for thicker inserts because they didn't feel the plastic was enough protection.

I would expect that anybody who has noticed the changes already owns an Oberon cover with the plastic inserts and can easily remove the inserts from their current cover to put into their new cover, or buy a cheap $1 binder at Walmart, or a sheet of plastic canvas...

Personally, I can't understand what the fuss is about.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Luvmy4brats said:


> Personally, I can't understand what the fuss is about.


x eleventy


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

Luvmy4brats said:


> I really don't think that's the case... I think it's a very, very small percentage (between here and Facebook I've only seen a couple of complaints) that have an issue. Most of us really don't care because we throw them out anyway, double them up to make them thicker, or ignore them altogether. I've seen many more posts over the years actually asking for thicker inserts because they didn't feel the plastic was enough protection.


Without seeing the survey question and results or a survey with a good representation of its actual customers with a neutrally worded question there is no way to know what their customer base really thinks. You know how you feel and I know how I feel. Truth is it is obvious that Oberon made a company decision to go with cardboard whether there was a survey or not or what the results were and, based on their posts, don't really care what people think about it. The cardboard itself is not my issue with Oberon. I think (at this time) they usually make a good product (sans the cardboard) but they could use some help in the areas of customer service and communication. A company shouldn't always look at sales as the only indicator of how they are doing. That is short sighted. I could go on and say why I feel that way and make some suggestions, but I am not going to waste my time since they don't seem to really care and let them pay for professionals if they really want it. It is only my opinion that they need it. I remember Coca-Cola thinking they had a great new product at one time but now offer Classic Coke.


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## Shapeshifter (Dec 22, 2009)

Bonbonlover said:


> I hope that Oberon will re-consider their decision as it has not gone over well with a good percentage of their customers.


I don't agree with this. You do realise that everyone that buys a product no matter what it is isn't on a forum.

A very small percentage of people sit on forums.

I didn't even know that there was anything in there until mine arrived and what I saw was a piece of bent cardboard that I had assumed was in there to help keep the cover sturdy in transport 

I feel it's a little silly to not purchase something as beautiful as the Oberons over something as silly as an insert that no one sees and really I don't think makes a difference in the product.


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## Indy (Jun 7, 2010)

They need to stop wasting time over cardboard versus plastic, and just put kevlar in there.  Or sheet metal.  Or ... no... carbon fiber.  Yeah.  Then you can have a bulletproof... thing...

Ok I have to stop.  I can't make sentences this soon after work with antihistamine in my system.


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## Cardinal (Feb 24, 2010)

Indy said:


> They need to stop wasting time over cardboard versus plastic, and just put kevlar in there. Or sheet metal. Or ... no... carbon fiber. Yeah. Then you can have a bulletproof... thing...


 

Very, very recently I was admiring my Oberon with the plastic inserts and thinking I would never take my Kindle to work in another cover because I think only Oberon offers enough protection from all the other (heavy) stuff in my bag. I'm very happy to have plastic inserts in my Oberon, I would not put my Kindle in that bag without them.

Personally, I think letting people decide on check out or having cardboard as the default and let people request plastic while ordering if they want it would be ideal. More Oberons would be shipped with cardboard than before, and Oberon's customers who want plastic will still be happy with them. I've noticed the Post Oberon Pictures thread has fallen off the first page since the cardboard insert discussion, something it rarely does.

If they had let us know about this in advance I probably would have ordered some more covers, but this way I'm saved money from a surprise spending spree.


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## Diane in Langley (Mar 7, 2011)

My first Oberon came with cardboard.  I didn't even know that plastic inserts had been in existence.  Anyways, the inserts came out immediately and I feel my kindle is still protected without them.  Plastic or cardboard; it makes no difference to me.  I still have 2 more Oberon cases on my wish list that I hope to purchase soon.


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## AlleyGator (Mar 25, 2011)

Good grief, people...why the big deal over a little piece of plastic AND I'm not talking Credit Cards.  

I have a gorgeous Oberon Kindle Cover which I proudly take with me most everywhere. The compliments I get from people seeing the beautiful craftsmanship on the OUTSIDE of my cover far out weights the cardboard inserts INSIDE my cover, which no one can see, but me.  In my opinion that does not take anything away from the beauty of the cover. Perhaps one could say that I don't miss what I never had, but that's not important to me.

On an added note: I have dealt with many businesses in the past and I must admit the customer service that I have received from Oberon has been nothing short of outstanding. They have answered every question with the upmost kindness I have ask...on Facebook and in emails.


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## mistyd107 (May 22, 2009)

Alley Gator said:


> Good grief, people...why the big deal over a little piece of plastic AND I'm not talking Credit Cards.
> 
> I have a gorgeous Oberon Kindle Cover which I proudly take with me most everywhere. The compliments I get from people seeing the beautiful craftsmanship on the OUTSIDE of my cover far out weights the cardboard inserts INSIDE my cover, which no one can see, but me. In my opinion that does not take anything away from the beauty of the cover. Perhaps one could say that I don't miss what I never had, but that's not important to me.
> 
> On an added note: I have dealt with many businesses in the past and I must admit the customer service that I have received from Oberon has been nothing short of outstanding. They have answered every question with the upmost kindness I have ask...on Facebook and in emails.


I completely agree


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

Cardinal said:


> Very, very recently I was admiring my Oberon with the plastic inserts and thinking I would never take my Kindle to work in another cover because I think only Oberon offers enough protection from all the other (heavy) stuff in my bag. I'm very happy to have plastic inserts in my Oberon, I would not put my Kindle in that bag without them.
> 
> Personally, I think letting people decide on check out or having cardboard as the default and let people request plastic while ordering if they want it would be ideal. More Oberons would be shipped with cardboard than before, and Oberon's customers who want plastic will still be happy with them. I've noticed the Post Oberon Pictures thread has fallen off the first page since the cardboard insert discussion, something it rarely does.
> 
> If they had let us know about this in advance I probably would have ordered some more covers, but this way I'm saved money from a surprise spending spree.


I totally agree. I would have ordered if I knew this was the last chance although much prefer the "make everyone happy" option of cardboard, plastic, or none. Too bad the company doesn't want to make everyone happy with this one little thing - or at least offer it for a period of time and then transition to all cardboard. I think most people eventually were OK with the change of not offering Velcro and only going with the corner straps. I never had a K2 so I don't know if that change was announced to let people order before they were gone. I am not thrilled with corner straps. I wanted to try using the Amazon cover inside of an Oberon Journal to bypass these but then there was the issue with the hinges so I had to go with these. If their company spokesperson hadn't added fuel to the fire with the postings I probably would have EVENTUALLY been OK with making my own inserts and chucking the cardboard (unless there were other issues).


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

I am not sure how fuel was added. You made your position known regarding the change. I simply explained why we made it and how it came about.

If I would have ignored it then I am certain it would have appeared we were not paying attention and disregarding the question.

I'm not sure what else I could have done. You were strong in your displeasure you were concerned with a change in quality and questioned our product. I wanted to assure customers  like you that has not changed.

I'm at a loss. I really don't know what else can be done to address the issues. It disappoints me to know you feel your concerns were not addressed.

I did my best.


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## mommacomet (Feb 15, 2011)

I think that Oberon has answered every question and given this "issue"  plenty of attention.  (Thank you for doing so)  Its seems that no matter what is said or done, that some people are just not going to be happy and are trying to make a major mountain out of a mole hill.  The company had their reasons to make the change and did so.  They made a change to something that probably most people will take out and throw away.  Their fine leather goods are of the same excellent quality that they have made for many, many years.  They are made to last which is something very rare and hard to find in this day and age.  

I look forward to many years enjoying my Oberon case (I will repurpose it as I know it will outlast the kindle itself) and the many more Oberon purchases in the future.


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

OberonDesign.com said:


> I'm at a loss.


That was obvious. But I am out of here and won't burden you with trying to explain. Frankly I don't care what Oberon does at this point. You lost me as a customer and if you can't figure out why, it isn't my problem.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

maries said:


> That was obvious. But I am out of here and won't burden you with trying to explain. Frankly I don't care what Oberon does at this point. You lost me as a customer and if you can't figure out why, it isn't my problem.


I'm guessing this is going to be a relief. Maybe that means we've seen the end of Cardboard Catastrophe 2011?


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## RiddleMeThis (Sep 15, 2009)

Alley Gator said:


> The compliments I get from people seeing the beautiful craftsmanship on the OUTSIDE of my cover far out weights the cardboard inserts INSIDE my cover, which no one can see, but me.


Not that it matters since Oberon lost me as a customer when they stopped offering the velcro, but my comfort during reading completely out weighs what other people think of the cover. My hand went inside the Oberon cover and rested on the piece of plastic that was in there. I do NOT like the feel of cardboard, or the unfinished leather inside. I would not buy an Oberon cover because of the change.


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## Neo (Mar 30, 2009)

StaceyHH said:


> I'm guessing this is going to be a relief. Maybe that means we've seen the end of Cardboard Catastrophe 2011?


Why do you care so much? Just ignore the thread if it annoys you.

Personally, I understand maries point of view. This is a board, where everybody is entitled to politely discuss and share opinions. maries isn't happy with Oberon's decision to change from plastic to cardboard inserts (neither do I for that matter) and expressed her opinion. Oberon came in and answered by explaining why they took this decision and that this was it. Some people thought Oberon went out of their way in explaining things, others thought they didn't communicate this well (between the tone sometimes used and the contradiction on cost issues between posts here and on FB, it could have easily not been taken well, but that's not even the point).

The point is, that Oberon got really exasperated (and that was really obvious), by people posting that they were not satisfied with the inserts decision, and kept coming back trying to justify themselves, and I felt, wanting everybody to agree with their corporate decision and applaud it.

IMO, I though it great that they came here in the first place to explain themselves. After that, again IMHO, they should have let it go. This is KB, and if we want to discuss to death the pros and cons of the different inserts, why not?

Some subjects, I feel, are discussed to death, and I don't see the point: I avoid those threads, don't click on them, and don't post - or maybe once, express what I feel I need to, and that's it.

If maries wants to write 10 more pages on why she doesn't like Oberon's decision and never will, and is disappointed and won't buy their covers anymore, why not??

See, I don't see the big deal in THAT.

But I know we love our Oberons and that makes everybody very passionate about the subject 

On a more positive note, and for those also following the Oberon pictures thread, I have by now fallen in love with my new black cloud dragon, and I'm getting ready to separate from my black sky dragon


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Neo said:


> The point is, that Oberon got really exasperated (and that was really obvious), by people posting that they were not satisfied with the inserts decision, and kept coming back trying to justify themselves, and I felt, wanting everybody to agree with their corporate decision and applaud it.


D*mned if you do, d*mned if you don't. IIRC a few select people went completely NUTZO during Velcrogate and felt like Oberon did not respond enough to their hysterical disappointment. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Why do I care? Because I'm tired of seeing a few really great, small companies (and Oberon is one of them,) get beset upon by a howling minority who isn't getting their way on such a trivial matter.

We all make decisions for luxury items based on trivial matters. I personally would never buy a Cole Haan (another luxury product,) because I don't like the way they changed the spine. But it's just silly to go around over and over and OVER AND OVER AND OVER and over and over telling them how awful they are and how disappointed I am because the latest incarnation isn't exactly like the old one and they didn't ask my permission to change it, and I'm mad and upset and it ruined my whole entire (luxury) selection process, and YOU'RE NOT PAYING ENOUGH ATTENTION TO ALL OF YOUR CUSTOMERS AND CHANGE IT BACK! (and by "all" I mean "me.") And even after they have responded multiple times, since they didn't give me exactly the answer I wanted, I'm still going to make the rounds and let everyone know just how upset I am that they are not paying enough attention to me and put the spine back the way it was before it was changed!

Except this is about two little pieces of cardboard.

It's hard enough to be a small business owner, trying to make the best decisions for a company and its employees, without having somebody getting irate and going into meltdown mode over a tiny little design change.

I'm not here to say she's not entitled to her meltdown. I'm here because I'm sticking up for a fellow business owner. I think Oberon has amply demonstrated here, that they are worthy of small business solidarity. Above and beyond. Perspective is a bit lacking here if one can get that torn up over a piece of cardboard.


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

I took the plastic inserts out of mine after I saw the first thread about it.  The K3 case is light enough that it doesn't matter if they are in.  I always took them out of my K1 and K2 covers.


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## AlleyGator (Mar 25, 2011)

RiddleMeThis said:


> Not that it matters since Oberon lost me as a customer when they stopped offering the velcro, but my comfort during reading completely out weighs what other people think of the cover. My hand went inside the Oberon cover and rested on the piece of plastic that was in there. I do NOT like the feel of cardboard, or the unfinished leather inside. I would not buy an Oberon cover because of the change.


Consider this point, RiddleMeThis: For every customer that feels the way you do, I'm sure Oberon has twice the customers that love their product...with or without the plastic. I think they can afford to do without your business.


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## Pushka (Oct 30, 2009)

Alley Gator said:


> Consider this point, RiddleMeThis: For every customer that feels the way you do, I'm sure Oberon has twice the customers that love their product...with or without the plastic. I think they can afford to do without your business.


Like Neo said, this is a forum on which to express thoughts about the kindle and related products. Some people considered the plastic inserts to be a part of the oberon product, and a part that made it function, and those people have the right to be disappointed about that, and express that point of view, as much as they want. As far as they are concerned, the product has changed for them, and as we didnt see the survey here, had no opportunity to influence the business decision that was made. I never used the plastic inserts, so it simply isnt important for me, but I can surely see why people are disappointed, and want to express that.

I dont have the right to tell them to stop, get over it, harden up, or shut up.


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## RiddleMeThis (Sep 15, 2009)

Pushka said:


> Like Neo said, this is a forum on which to express thoughts about the kindle and related products. Some people considered the plastic inserts to be a part of the oberon product, and a part that made it function, and those people have the right to be disappointed about that, and express that point of view, as much as they want. As far as they are concerned, the product has changed for them, and as we didnt see the survey here, had no opportunity to influence the business decision that was made. I never used the plastic inserts, so it simply isnt important for me, but I can surely see why people are disappointed, and want to express that.
> 
> I dont have the right to tell them to stop, get over it, harden up, or shut up.


Thank you Pushka. Very well said.

I'm sure Oberon will do, as they have been, quite well without my business. But I am VERY sure that Oberon would be MUCH happier WITH my business than without it. Especially in this economy, and ESPECIALLY with the way I bought Oberons for my K2 and would have bought for my K3 and on.


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## cloudyvisions (May 21, 2009)

...all I have to say is, thank you to the person who posted the idea of getting a cheap binder and cutting out an insert using the cardboard as a pattern! I should have thought of that myself, but the thought never even occurred to me until I read it. Cardboard inserts are in the trash, plastic is back. So much easier to hold now! 

I would still buy Oberon covers, but I would probably put in that box where I put "no wool on the left side" and add "leave out the inserts."


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## Seamonkey (Dec 2, 2008)

I don't have a K3 Oberon (yet) but for my K2 and DX covers, I removed the plastic.  So next time, I'll remove the cardboard.


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## AlleyGator (Mar 25, 2011)

Pushka said:


> Like Neo said, this is a forum on which to express thoughts about the kindle and related products. Some people considered the plastic inserts to be a part of the oberon product, and a part that made it function, and those people have the right to be disappointed about that, and express that point of view, as much as they want. As far as they are concerned, the product has changed for them, and as we didnt see the survey here, had no opportunity to influence the business decision that was made. I never used the plastic inserts, so it simply isnt important for me, but I can surely see why people are disappointed, and want to express that.
> 
> I dont have the right to tell them to stop, get over it, harden up, or shut up.


I totally agree...I was just stating *my* opinion.


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## AnelaBelladonna (Apr 8, 2009)

I always took the plastic part out anyway so it doesn't matter to me.


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## SilverMaple (Oct 20, 2010)

The cheap flexible thin plastic cutting boards you can buy in a 3-pack for cheap at Walmart work great for inserts if you want to replace the cardboard.

I think the cardboard makes the cover too thick, and looks tacky next to the nice leather.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I encourage anyone who is disappointed with a decision made by Oberon specifically, or any company in general, to contact the company and let them know how you feel.  Yes, we have Oberon reps check out our board from time to time, but nothing like a direct email.  It seems to me the contact info was fairly easy to find on Oberon's website...

Betsy
(I loved the Velcro.  I don't really have any interest in an Oberon with corners, and I've told them that.  )


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## mommacomet (Feb 15, 2011)

I can't imagine velcro on any of my leather.    Over time velcro looses its hold and gets nasty.  Glad they changed to the leather corners.  I love them.


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## Neo (Mar 30, 2009)

mommacomet said:


> I can't imagine velcro on any of my leather.  Over time velcro looses its hold and gets nasty. Glad they changed to the leather corners. I love them.


They didn't "change" them: they used to have both options you could choose from.


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## Pushka (Oct 30, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> (I loved the Velcro. I don't really have any interest in an Oberon with corners, and I've told them that. )


Me too. I removed the corner straps on any oberons I received without the velcro and put on my own. I think velcro is fine and certainly does the job well.


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## VujaDe (Oct 2, 2010)

StaceyHH said:


> D*mned if you do, d*mned if you don't. IIRC a few select people went completely NUTZO during Velcrogate and felt like Oberon did not respond enough to their hysterical disappointment. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Why do I care? Because I'm tired of seeing a few really great, small companies (and Oberon is one of them,) get beset upon by a howling minority who isn't getting their way on such a trivial matter.
> 
> We all make decisions for luxury items based on trivial matters. I personally would never buy a Cole Haan (another luxury product,) because I don't like the way they changed the spine. But it's just silly to go around over and over and OVER AND OVER AND OVER and over and over telling them how awful they are and how disappointed I am because the latest incarnation isn't exactly like the old one and they didn't ask my permission to change it, and I'm mad and upset and it ruined my whole entire (luxury) selection process, and YOU'RE NOT PAYING ENOUGH ATTENTION TO ALL OF YOUR CUSTOMERS AND CHANGE IT BACK! (and by "all" I mean "me.") And even after they have responded multiple times, since they didn't give me exactly the answer I wanted, I'm still going to make the rounds and let everyone know just how upset I am that they are not paying enough attention to me and put the spine back the way it was before it was changed!
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with this more. Well said.


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## Bonbonlover (Oct 17, 2010)

This is a kindle and kindle related items discussion board. Everyone is free and encouraged to voice their opinion about kindle products. As it has turned out Oberon has gotten a whole lot of free publicity from this site. (How many people never heard of Oberon before coming and reading of the product here) That is all well and good... but people should feel equally welcome to post things they don't like about a product. 

The title of this thread shows that it is about discussing Cardboard vs Plastic... some will like cardboard, some will prefer plastic. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and discussion shouldn't be stifled and posters should not be called cyber-bullies simply because a company representative says this is the way it is.  

ETA: I would not expect such an open and candid discussion if I were reading an Oberon site or even the Oberon Facebook ... but we are an independent site and should be free to voice our opinion.


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

Bonbonlover said:


> This is a kindle and kindle related items discussion board. Everyone is free and encouraged to voice their opinion about kindle products. As it has turned out Oberon has gotten a whole lot of free publicity from this site. (How many people never heard of Oberon before coming and reading of the product here) That is all well and good... but people should feel equally welcome to post things they don't like about a product.
> 
> The title of this thread shows that it is about discussing Cardboard vs Plastic... some will like cardboard, some will prefer plastic. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and discussion shouldn't be stifled and posters should not be called cyber-bullies simply because a company representative says this is the way it is.


Thanks for this. At least I feel a little more welcome now.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)




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## Pushka (Oct 30, 2009)

I am finding some of the posts here quite unnecessary.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Pushka said:


> I am finding some of the posts here quite unnecessary.


Yeah, I don't know when everybody decided to start talking about velcro. I wish they'd break that out into its own thread.


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

When we first started making covers Velcro was our only option. Many people didn't like it. When we were able to purchase the equipment to do corners that was our goal. The reason we offered the option for a while is to use our supply of Velcro until it was gone and then we didn't re order it and have gone to corners.


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## Brodys Mom (Nov 8, 2009)

The first thing I did when I received my covers was throw away the plastic inserts. I assumed they were for shipping purposes. It doesn't matter to me if plastic or chipboard.

I am a lover of the velcro though.   I'll just cut the corners off my future Oberons.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

I like zippers. When are you going to put a zipper on the cover?


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Also, I like to read in the hot tub, and I'm pretty upset that you haven't come out with a waterproof version yet. I mean, I get what you are trying to do with the leather and everything, but it doesn't help me, and I feel like I haven't been heard on this issue.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks to Oberon for being so responsive to our thread here.  And I'm sure they are receptive to any serious suggestions for their product line.  . 

And let's remember that, just as in any conversation, the discourse might occasionally wander a bit off topic.  Easy enough to bring back by adding a comment about the original topic.

I don't think I'd mind the cardboard, but I'd have to see one in person.

Betsy


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## Brodys Mom (Nov 8, 2009)

StaceyHH said:


> Also, I like to read in the hot tub, and I'm pretty upset that you haven't come out with a waterproof version yet. I mean, I get what you are trying to do with the leather and everything, but it doesn't help me, and I feel like I haven't been heard on this issue.


That would be impossible.

Order one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Version-TrendyDigital-WaterGuard-Waterproof-Generation/dp/B0026GJHVY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301715441&sr=8-1


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Thanks to Oberon for being so responsive to our thread here. And I'm sure they are receptive to any serious suggestions for their product line. .
> 
> And let's remember that, just as in any conversation, the discourse might occasionally wander a bit off topic. Easy enough to bring back by adding a comment about the original topic.
> 
> ...


We need to have another get together. I have a new one coming this week.


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

LOL Stacey.. Zipper .. Sure we will get right on it. After we perfect our scuba version as per your requests. I'm thinking maybe an acrylic glaze to help with that.. Or one of the 10 inch thick glass windows they use on submersibles in the ocean. ...  oh the possibilities  .. Thanks for the laugh which I needed! You are the best.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Forget all those fancy dyes. Two words: Spar Var.


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## OberonDesign.com (Nov 30, 2009)

I'll be sure to pass that along  lol


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## Feylamia (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm posting this here instead of in the oberon picture thread because I think it's less off-topic here. 



OberonDesign.com said:


> We are unable to customize due to costs. We are a very small company. The dyes are expensive and they are ordered to fit the plates for each item. So if you order a cover and you are the only one who ordered it in red we are stuck with that dye.
> 
> We simply can't keep every dye for every design. So we limit the colors to three and in some cases two.
> 
> ...


Actually, not quite. I mean, I understand what you are saying but your answer doesn't really match the question...

To be honest, sometimes when you answer questions about customizations I get the feeling that you have a pre-made text (the one about the cost of dyes) and do not properly read what people were really saying.
People were talking about leaving the pewter button and bungees off. That would actually save you money and time, so those factors shouldn't be an issue. It doesn't appear to be a problem to leave off the wool, why not the button/bungee, too?

Regarding color customization, since you brought it up: I get that you cannot customize covers for free - but from what I've read online you don't take custom orders even if people offer to pay for all your extra costs. I don't mean to be rude but when people say "Well, I would like to order cover xyz and I wouldn't mind paying the extra costs" it does feel like a bit of a slap in their face to go "we don't do that because it's too costly", you know? If the customer wants to pay extra, why not let them? Or at least give them another reason, one that makes sense to them. Such as "We get so many orders in every day that we just don't have time to do customizations like that as it involves a whole lot of extra work, such as calling the dye supplier, ordering the special dye and cleaning the drum we dye our leather in more often than we usually do" or whatnot. Those are reasons that people would get. But saying "it's too costly" when people would happily pay for all the extra costs is just a bit meh, you know?

I think a few people misread other people's posts. Here as well as in the other threads discussing Oberon's customer service.
People aren't necessarily miffed about not receiving plastic inserts or not being able to order their covers with custom colors, without pewter buttons or bungees. They are miffed because they feel that their concerns are not even read properly, they are being brushed off or not taken seriously.

I mean, I was one of the first people (if not the first person) to point out that cardboard was a greener alternative to plastic inserts and that I personally liked the change but I still think customer communication may be a bit of the weak point of the company. But from what I've read on these forums, this only applies to web communication though. People appear to be very happy with the results of their phone calls. So I can only assume that the medium leads to problems with the message here.  The subject of my final examination in linguistics was online communication and you would be surprised how badly things can go wrong just because you're talking on a forum instead of on the phone or face to face. 

That said, I think think that Oberon certainly never intended to deceive the customers. Their products are outstanding in every way - even I can tell, and I haven't seen their work in person yet. 
Plus, to be honest, I'd rather work through a few miscommunications than receive a product I'm not happy with. So even if there are misunderstandings, the mere fact that Amy(?) posts on the forums explaining company decisions and answering questions (some of them over and over) all the time shows that Oberon do care about their customers.

Oh my, this turned into quite a rant. I'm sorry. I promised I'll try to be better. And I promise I'll order at least one Oberon cover before the summer's over.


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

Feylamia - some excellent points and observances esp regarding where they are having communication issues!  When you look at the web site for Oberon they talk about no returns because each item is hand made "to order" which IMO does imply that some control/cusyomization should be possible in that porcess while in reality there is very little other than with or without the wool but many don't even know that is an option.


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## mommacomet (Feb 15, 2011)

My thoughts on customization. Please note that  I have no clue how the Oberon produces its products or nor am I involved with the company in any manner but I am simply throwing out ideas why customization is just not feasible on so many levels. 

As far as customization goes on the bungee and pewter button.  I could see where this would not be possible if the design is done in a press type tooling because more than likely the holes are cut into the cover at the same the design is pressed/tooled into the leather so the holes are perfectly aligned.  Tooling leather in any manner is not easy. And for color choices. in order to maintain even and consistent color dying they probably dye in small batches. It also could be that the dying process is done at the same time as the pressing/tooling, so for each color they have to have a different plate to avoid the mixing of colors. (You wouldn't want to find red on your beautiful blue). Plates are extremely expensive to have made.  If they would have only one plate and have to extensively clean it each time they change colors it would be very time consuming to do just one custom color. Therefore the cost of the products would have to raise or the cost of a custom color would be outrageous.  The wool being left off is just a matter of not being sewn onto the inside leather piece of the cover.   

You have to realize this is a small company and if they would get into doing customization, its going to add many man hours just to have someone take care of dealing with billing of each item accordingly. To you and I asking for something a little different might seem like a very small request but when your a small company, as Oberon is, dealing with thousands of orders any type of customization means additional man hours, an increase of cost in order to maintain the same excellent quality (if the cost would not be transferred to their customers it would mean a decrease in the quality of materials), additional equipment/supplies they have to maintain,  as well as orders taking a lot longer to produce before they can be shipped out to you. Instead of getting your product shipped out to you within a few days of your order it might be weeks.  

Oberon is a small company that offers an excellent, high quality, beautifully crafted product at a very reasonable cost.  By staying that way, they are able to maintain these standards for their products that you and I have come to know, love and enjoy.


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## maries (Dec 29, 2010)

I a a big supporter of small business and buying US made products.  I also recycle and buy reusable bags for grocery shopping.  I am all for making decisions that are better for the environment when possible.

If the company was looking for a green option (and cared what customers thought/wanted) than some alternative options to the cardboard were given here.

For those that threw out the plastic and will now throw out the cardboard, this isn't a concern BUT, for these, wouldn't having the option to not have either be a better "green" solution.

However, for those of us that feel the plastic stabilizer is part of the product, this change is a concern.  Did the company need to disclose or tell us why?  Of course not.  But there are alot of things a company does not have to do, that they can do to be sure they are relating to what all of their customers want/expect.  This can be more critical for a small company.

The intial explanation was that this was a survey and the decision was based on that.  Later it appeared that this was a company decision and if there was any input from customers, they only cared about those that agreed with what they were wanting to do.  For the others - too bad.  The plastic/cardboard is not sewn in so people were going to find out.  The company should have been prepared for how they would handle this.  

The rep that posted here felt giving an explanation of why they did this was good enough.  When someone agreed with him/her the rep acknowledged that post and thanked the poster.  But for those that did not agree, it was pretty much, I explained why we did it and it doesn't bother some people so what is wrong with you that this silly little thing bothers you.  Not said in those words but that was the message coming across - at least to me.

So yes I was disappointed in the change but had this been handled in a better way I might have been able to see that even the cardboard isn't necessary or I would have been willing to just make my own plastic insert.  This becomes a less green option for the world because there would be waste that gets thrown out.

How this was handled and the posts here by their rep became the issue.  If you agreed you were highly praised.  So it appears the company only wants people that agree with them or praise them.  They don't want to hear from others or listen to other options that could be a better all around solution.  That is why they lost me as a customer.  And they may think that is not a big deal to lose a customer or two over this.  But now when someone asks about a cover or admires mine, my response will not be to give them the info to the Oberon site but to say - "It's an Oberon but I would never buy from that company again."


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## Bonbonlover (Oct 17, 2010)

Very well stated Maries .. I agree 100%


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## kschles (Feb 10, 2011)

maries said:


> The rep that posted here felt giving an explanation of why they did this was good enough. When someone agreed with him/her the rep acknowledged that post and thanked the poster. But for those that did not agree, it was pretty much, I explained why we did it and it doesn't bother some people so what is wrong with you that this silly little thing bothers you. Not said in those words but that was the message coming across - at least to me.
> 
> How this was handled and the posts here by their rep became the issue. If you agreed you were highly praised. So it appears the company only wants people that agree with them or praise them. They don't want to hear from others or listen to other options that could be a better all around solution. That is why they lost me as a customer. And they may think that is not a big deal to lose a customer or two over this. But now when someone asks about a cover or admires mine, my response will not be to give them the info to the Oberon site but to say - "It's an Oberon but I would never buy from that company again."


Wow. You've made it clear that you will never buy from Oberon again. Your characterization of the Oberon Rep responses on this board is, frankly, a fantasy and utterly ridiculous. That is MY opinion, before you or anyone else starts complaining that someone is trying to silence you.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Feylamia said:


> I'm posting this here instead of in the oberon picture thread because I think it's less off-topic here.
> Actually, not quite. I mean, I understand what you are saying but your answer doesn't really match the question...
> 
> To be honest, sometimes when you answer questions about customizations I get the feeling that you have a pre-made text (the one about the cost of dyes) and do not properly read what people were really saying.
> People were talking about leaving the pewter button and bungees off. That would actually save you money and time, so those factors shouldn't be an issue. It doesn't appear to be a problem to leave off the wool, why not the button/bungee, too?


Actually, customizations of this nature do NOT save time and money, because somebody has to handle the request and put in a change order on the process, and you have to pay that person, which certainly costs more than the button and bungees.



> Regarding color customization, since you brought it up: I get that you cannot customize covers for free - but from what I've read online you don't take custom orders even if people offer to pay for all your extra costs. I don't mean to be rude but when people say "Well, I would like to order cover xyz and I wouldn't mind paying the extra costs" it does feel like a bit of a slap in their face to go "we don't do that because it's too costly", you know? If the customer wants to pay extra, why not let them? Or at least give them another reason, one that makes sense to them. Such as "We get so many orders in every day that we just don't have time to do customizations like that as it involves a whole lot of extra work, such as calling the dye supplier, ordering the special dye and cleaning the drum we dye our leather in more often than we usually do" or whatnot. Those are reasons that people would get. But saying "it's too costly" when people would happily pay for all the extra costs is just a bit meh, you know?


Does "too costly" seem like less than a "slap in the face," than being told that your $68 cover is now going to be $185 for the custom color? Because it's not a $5 upcharge, that's not how leather dying works. And NO company is required to lay out all the reasoning that went into a business decision, that's utterly ridiculous. Can you imagine trying to bully Nike™ into an online justification of why they changed the spring color in this year's line of Shox®? It would never happen, and I doubt you'd get anyone to take your call more than once.



> I think a few people misread other people's posts. Here as well as in the other threads discussing Oberon's customer service.
> People aren't necessarily miffed about not receiving plastic inserts or not being able to order their covers with custom colors, without pewter buttons or bungees. They are miffed because they feel that their concerns are not even read properly, they are being brushed off or not taken seriously.


How on EARTH could you possibly think this issue has been brushed off or not taken seriously? They have repeatedly answered the question. A few people just don't like the answer. Instead of ignoring repeated (same) complaints from these people, they have come back here again and again to explain why they made the decision. These few people just don't like the answer so they're going to keep on and on demanding a response until they get the answer they like, or until they can, what? punish Oberon enough for not letting them make the decisions for Oberon?



> I mean, I was one of the first people (if not the first person) to point out that cardboard was a greener alternative to plastic inserts and that I personally liked the change but I still think customer communication may be a bit of the weak point of the company. But from what I've read on these forums, this only applies to web communication though. People appear to be very happy with the results of their phone calls. So I can only assume that the medium leads to problems with the message here.  The subject of my final examination in linguistics was online communication and you would be surprised how badly things can go wrong just because you're talking on a forum instead of on the phone or face to face.


Perhaps people are angry that the Oberon rep is not groveling enough about their business decisions. It's much more difficult to demand groveling when one are speaking on the phone, and it's obvious that the company rep is being 100% reasonable. But online, one can bury his head in sand and expect them to grovel because important customer is important! I think you're probably 100% right about web communication. Finger might be pointing the wrong way though.



> That said, I think think that Oberon certainly never intended to deceive the customers.


Most important part. They have been very transparent here.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

maries said:


> Feylamia - some excellent points and observances esp regarding where they are having communication issues! When you look at the web site for Oberon they talk about no returns because each item is hand made "to order" which IMO does imply that some control/cusyomization should be possible in that porcess while in reality there is very little other than with or without the wool but many don't even know that is an option.


"To order," means they make it when it's ordered and don't retain a large backstock, not that they offer customizations. In business, these are two very different things, and "to order" doesn't at all imply "customization."


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

mommacomet said:


> My thoughts on customization. Please note that I have no clue how the Oberon produces its products or nor am I involved with the company in any manner but I am simply throwing out ideas why customization is just not feasible on so many levels.
> 
> As far as customization goes on the bungee and pewter button. I could see where this would not be possible if the design is done in a press type tooling because more than likely the holes are cut into the cover at the same the design is pressed/tooled into the leather so the holes are perfectly aligned. Tooling leather in any manner is not easy. And for color choices. in order to maintain even and consistent color dying they probably dye in small batches. It also could be that the dying process is done at the same time as the pressing/tooling, so for each color they have to have a different plate to avoid the mixing of colors. (You wouldn't want to find red on your beautiful blue). Plates are extremely expensive to have made. If they would have only one plate and have to extensively clean it each time they change colors it would be very time consuming to do just one custom color. Therefore the cost of the products would have to raise or the cost of a custom color would be outrageous. The wool being left off is just a matter of not being sewn onto the inside leather piece of the cover.
> 
> ...


QFT.

*applause*


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Wow. Where to begin.



maries said:


> I a a big supporter of small business and buying US made products. I also recycle and buy reusable bags for grocery shopping. I am all for making decisions that are better for the environment when possible.


If this were true, you wouldn't be beating up on THIS small business for making a trivial change that they have decided was better for their company and the environment.



> If the company was looking for a green option (and cared what customers thought/wanted) than some alternative options to the cardboard were given here.
> 
> For those that threw out the plastic and will now throw out the cardboard, this isn't a concern BUT, for these, wouldn't having the option to not have either be a better "green" solution.


And they have decided not to offer this option, based on decisions they made, based on their volume.

This is not just about what the customers do with the plastic inserts, this is about what the company has to do. When they custom cut the sheet plastic, there's waste. Edges for a smooth cut, the overages where one more row of plastic won't fit, and all of the little round corners have to be disposed of - for hundreds of product. Or they have to pay a specialty recycler to come take it all away, which is outrageously expensive, and if you do your research you will find that for this type of plastic, there's still not an environmentally good way to recycle it. With cardboard, you can recycle ALL cutting waste, and if your customers don't like the inserts, you know that they also can recycle.



> However, for those of us that feel the plastic stabilizer is part of the product, this change is a concern. *Did the company need to disclose or tell us why? Of course not.* But there are alot of things a company does not have to do, that they can do to be sure they are relating to what all of their customers want/expect. This can be more critical for a small company.


But they DID tell you why, you just don't like the answer. So how many times are you going to demand an explanation? Until you're satisfied you've created enough pain and suffering for this small US business?



> The intial explanation was that this was a survey and the decision was based on that. Later it appeared that this was a company decision and if there was any input from customers, they only cared about those that agreed with what they were wanting to do. For the others - too bad. The plastic/cardboard is not sewn in so people were going to find out. The company should have been prepared for how they would handle this.


I think the company probably (logically) had no idea that a few people would be so very DEVASTATED about two little removable pieces of plastic/cardboard.



> The rep that posted here felt giving an explanation of why they did this was good enough. When someone agreed with him/her the rep acknowledged that post and thanked the poster. But for those that did not agree, it was pretty much, I explained why we did it and it doesn't bother some people so what is wrong with you that this silly little thing bothers you. Not said in those words but that was the message coming across - at least to me.


Wow, selective memory. What I saw was the rep coming here MULTIPLE times and saying "this is why we made this decision, I'm sorry we've upset you. No we can't change it." That's how businesses respond when somebody doesn't like a new product. They don't change it back, they don't grovel. And when others support them, they thank their supporters. What did you want them to do, thank you for being so angry about this that you've made multiple posts about the Catastrophe?



> So yes I was disappointed in the change but had this been handled in a better way I might have been able to see that even the cardboard isn't necessary or I would have been willing to just make my own plastic insert. This becomes a less green option for the world because there would be waste that gets thrown out.


But what you are saying here is the only acceptable answer on their part would have been to change their business decision and do what you say. Does that sound like a good way to run a small business to you?



> How this was handled and the posts here by their rep became the issue. If you agreed you were highly praised. So it appears the company only wants people that agree with them or praise them. They don't want to hear from others or listen to other options that could be a better all around solution. That is why they lost me as a customer. And they may think that is not a big deal to lose a customer or two over this. But now when someone asks about a cover or admires mine, my response will not be to give them the info to the Oberon site but to say - "It's an Oberon but I would never buy from that company again."


I wonder how many hours the Oberon rep has dedicated to the Cardboard Catastrophe, and the few former customers who are angry about it? The only business mistake that I saw committed by Oberon is that they kept trying to explain to people who don't want explanation, but only will be satisfied with capitulation. A single simple "I'm sorry you feel that way, we strive to produce a superior product, both for customers and for the environment, and this was a decision we made after much thought. I'm sorry, we won't be offering the old inserts anymore," full stop, end sentence, would have been a perfectly good response.

Instead, what you see is them trying to make unreasonable people understand a business decision, not realizing that those people would NEVER be satisfied with the answer. Yet still, they persisted with trying to communicate with (former) customers.

This has been a textbook example of superior small business response. I'm absolutely astounded at the level of vitriol that is being directed at Oberon because they made a business decision (and an environmental decision) to change two little removable pieces of plastic to two little removable pieces of cardboard.


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## mommacomet (Feb 15, 2011)

As with anything in print, each reader interrupts what they are reading in many different ways.  While one person may read a comment and find it to be just a fact stating comment another person my find that comment as a personal attack on their issue/feelings.  It's almost impossible for everyone to read the same information and come away with the same meaning/feelings.

We all have things we love about the products we buy and its upsetting when there are changes to that product.  Sometimes we understand why the changes were made and other times we don't and most certainly not everyone is going to agree.  And not everyone is going to agree on whether the explanation on those changes were good enough or properly addressed.  I have seen both the pros/cons on these pages of the board to why some prefer plastic, others cardboard and others that don't care either way because they are fine with both or throw them away regardless.  On the consumers side there is going to be someone unhappy with the decisions made, which is understandable, and with the company there is just no way to please everyone, understandable as well.  What is to us a small matter to a company can be a major factor that could just snowball into other major issues.

While I most certainly agree that it would be nice if they could offer, in this case, both cardboard, plastic, or a no insert option.  I also understand that it probably wouldn't be cost effective for the company (and the customer) in order for them to do so.  As in most things if you order less of a product (which if offering both plastic and cardboard) they would be ordering less of both products so their purchase price would increase.  On top of which if they have a person in charge of final inspection and inserting the stabilizers into the final product, if they have to stop and read each order (no insert, plastic, cardboard) the time per item at inspection would also increase.  All of this would directly, of course, effect the price of their products.  I looked at a lot of covers before deciding on an Oberon kindle cover and although a little more costly than others felt that it was well worth the extra few dollars, as I am sure most would agree.  But if the cost of their product had to dramatically increase due to trying to carry both types of inserts (their cost, man power of customized orders, etc) I may and many others may not be able to see that purchasing their products as an affordable option.  For a small company, this could be disastrous.  

Whether you choose or not to order from Oberon is like everything thing else a personal matter.  It is what it is. It's basically a we choose to agree that we disagree on this matter.  Our personal opinions are what makes us all unique and who we are.  As far as the company thanking someone for a post and not someone else,  it might not be because they felt that the person who was upset was wrong or out of line or their opinions and feeling didn't matter but because the person that posted in favor or gave explanation was able to get a point across in wording that they couldn't. 

In my own opinion I can't see not buying a quality product because of an insert that is not a permanent part of the product and I can in effect change it out by making my own.  I also can't see not buying a product because I personally didn't agree with how the explanation was handled by a company representative.  Especially if up to that point I had been nothing but happy with the products I had purchased and with the company.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

It's a rare thing in Accessories, but I'm going to lock this thread.  When a thread deteriorates to the point that people are picking apart each others posts, that thread has jumped the shark.  

So, let's move on from this issue....

Betsy
Accessories Moderator


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