# What are you tired of in fantasy?



## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

I read a lot of fantasy, and much of it is well-written and original. However, there is also a lot of less impressive material. What are some plots/characters/themes that you're tired of in fantasy works? Here are some of mine:

- Prophecies (Just been done so many times, and more importantly it cheapens the decisions of the characters).
- Farmer/blacksmith/peasant turned world hero (C'mon - how many times has this been done?)

What bugs you?


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## JBarry22 (Dec 12, 2011)

I like your first one... prophecies. I hate them. There are so many "chosen ones" out there, I feel like the "unchosen" are actually a minority at this point. 

I also think the cyclical "this has happened before and will happen again" stories are overdone.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm gonna love this thread . . . !


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## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

JBarry22 said:


> I like your first one... prophecies. I hate them. There are so many "chosen ones" out there, I feel like the "unchosen" are actually a minority at this point.
> 
> *I also think the cyclical "this has happened before and will happen again" stories are overdone. *


Totally agree. This was one of the reasons I could never get into the Wheel of Time series.


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## Nebula7 (Apr 21, 2011)

Another agreement. Too much prophecy. 

I also get tired of names and places that can not be pronounced.


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

JBarry22 said:


> I like your first one... prophecies. I hate them. There are so many "chosen ones" out there, I feel like the "unchosen" are actually a minority at this point.


While I agree with your point, I think a story about the "unchosen" one isn't quite as interesting. I mean, do you really want to read a story about Bob, the hero's brother who just wanted a chance to be awesome too? Meh. Maybe, but I don't think Bob could carry his own story very far.

Edited because I forgot to answer the OP's question: I'm tired of Rapunzel, the girl who just waits around to be saved.


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## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

Also can't stand when authors continually introduce something (character, artifact, spell, monster, etc) that's even more powerful/epic/BA than the previous powerful/epic/BA thing (*cough* Steven Erikson *cough*).


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

I get tired of the fantasy series that just never end.  Get a new idea already.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

Characters with ridiculous, over-the-top names. I can't stand it, and put the book down.


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## Seanathin23 (Jul 24, 2011)

Names with apostrophes that I can't even fathom how to pronounce. It is like the author just threw some letters together and threw punctuation in the middle.  I care not for the adventures of Thr'gagqur. 

Also people magically not being dead, they fall into pits, get impailled by spears, and some how they are not dead, part of the reason I gave on the Sword of Shannara, that and the endless LoTR rip offs.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Seanathin23 said:


> Also people magically not being dead, they fall into pits, ....


Unless they're Gandalf. Gandalf gets a Get Out Of Dead Free Pass.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Elves.  I hate, detest and loath the pointy-eared dandelion-eating holier-than-thou pretentious gits.  Tolkien gets a free pass because 1) he did them first and 2) if you've read the backstory you know that they aren't the perfect race that so many knocks offs tend to make them.

Oh, and Pratchett also gets a free pass as his are downright evil, which is what elves are.


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## Brad Murgen (Oct 17, 2011)

Sean Patrick Fox said:


> I read a lot of fantasy, and much of it is well-written and original. However, there is also a lot of less impressive material. What are some plots/characters/themes that you're tired of in fantasy works? Here are some of mine:
> 
> - Prophecies (Just been done so many times, and more importantly it cheapens the decisions of the characters).
> - Farmer/blacksmith/peasant turned world hero (C'mon - how many times has this been done?)
> ...





Sean Patrick Fox said:


> Also can't stand when authors continually introduce something (character, artifact, spell, monster, etc) that's even more powerful/epic/BA than the previous powerful/epic/BA thing (*cough* Steven Erikson *cough*).


You hit the nail on the head with all of these. Having read fantasy for a loooong time now, all these elements are overdone and it's really hard to find any original use of them now. Even though the regular guy turned hero is the archetypal hero story and is fun to read about, it does get old sometimes. This is why I'm really trying not to use prophecies or any of these elements in my fantasy... I feel I have to try something different. Let the characters have free will for once.

And Steven Erikson... can't stand him. His Malazan books make no sense, but then again they are based on D&D gaming sessions.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Coral Moore said:


> While I agree with your point, I think a story about the "unchosen" one isn't quite as interesting. I mean, do you really want to read a story about Bob, the hero's brother who just wanted a chance to be awesome too? Meh. Maybe, but I don't think Bob could carry his own story very far....


I don't think that not being a "chosen one" means the story is not interesting. Rather, it means that the hero accomplishes whatever he accomplishes purely on his or her own merits, rather than because of some _deus ex machina_ sort of thing where he succeeds because of his bloodline or because of some mystical alignment of the spheres that made him the chosen one. Which leads to one of my personal fantasy peeves: the idea that someone of royal blood is somehow more special than the commoners. To paraphrase Terry Pratchett (since I'm too lazy to look it up), royalty simply means someone who has an ancestor somewhere in his family tree who was the biggest, meanest, strongest SOB around at the time. However, the story about how that original SOB became the first king (or queen) of a line of royalty can be interesting.


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

I feel rather torn about the "peasant boy turns out to be king" idea. It's been overdone, but then when it is done well, I still like it. 



A.S. Warwick said:


> Elves. I hate, detest and loath the pointy-eared dandelion-eating holier-than-thou pretentious gits. Tolkien gets a free pass because 1) he did them first and 2) if you've read the backstory you know that they aren't the perfect race that so many knocks offs tend to make them.
> 
> Oh, and Pratchett also gets a free pass as his are downright evil, which is what elves are.


LOL, yes, they can be a little on the proud side, but come on, they are not downright evil.


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## tahliaN (Nov 6, 2011)

Long convoluted plots with masses of characters, unpronouncible names, long & unecessarily detailed descriptions, lots of wars and politics. Yep I'm pretty much over sword and scorcey unless it avoids all that eg Graceling.

I'm sick of vampires and the christian style angels & demons stories, but I like demons that aren't associated with god, angels and hell. Theres a lot of leeway to be very creative with the idea of demons. 

I don't mind prophecies if they're in the background, but not ones that are in your face all the time.


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## tahliaN (Nov 6, 2011)

NogDog said:


> I don't think that not being a "chosen one" means the story is not interesting. Rather, it means that the hero accomplishes whatever he accomplishes purely on his or her own merits, rather than because of some _deus ex machina_ sort of thing where he succeeds because of his bloodline or because of some mystical alignment of the spheres that made him the chosen one. Which leads to one of my personal fantasy peeves: the idea that someone of royal blood is somehow more special than the commoners. To paraphrase Terry Pratchett (since I'm too lazy to look it up), royalty simply means someone who has an ancestor somewhere in his family tree who was the biggest, meanest, strongest SOB around at the time. However, the story about how that original SOB became the first king (or queen) of a line of royalty can be interesting.


I agree with this. I like to see ordinary people who have to develop the skills and talents needed to overcome the evil. That's pretty rare in fantasy, but it's what I've done with 'Lethal Inheritance' - which isn't published yet, my agent is still looking for a publisher for that one.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Laura Lond said:


> ...It's been overdone, but then when it is done well, I still like it.  ...


I'll give a free pass to almost anything when it's truly well executed.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> I get tired of the fantasy series that just never end. Get a new idea already.


This. I'm about a 3-book person. Maaaybe 5 on the outside.

I avoid prophesies these days. And actually, I wouldn't mind reading about the unchosen. Everyday heroes are okay. I recently read "Child of Fire" by...oh dang it. By a guy who wrote it. Anyway, the all-powerful heroine in the story was not the main. The book was about her driver, as in chauffeur. Okay, it went a lot over the top toward the end -- kind of down the rabbit trail type of thing, but it was a good book. And the guy was an ex-con. He was an interesting character.

Harry Connelly was the author (might not have spelled that exactly right.)


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

NogDog said:


> I'll give a free pass to almost anything when it's truly well executed.


Yes, that's how I feel. I'll even read about amnesia, if it's believable and has a justified purpose in the story.


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## flipside (Dec 7, 2011)

Trilogies.

Monarchies.

Euro-centric settings.

Of course it boils down to execution...


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## Chris Strange (Apr 4, 2011)

flipside said:


> Trilogies.
> 
> Monarchies.
> 
> ...


Are...are we the same person?

Pseudo-european-medieval settings are one of my biggest pet peeves. I tend to steer clear of them now and stick with more imaginative worlds.


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## Seleya (Feb 25, 2011)

flipside said:


> Euro-centric settings.


Ditto. Only, in the view of this European, that most often traslates into : 'settings that pretend to be Medieval Europe but the author didn't have a clue and didn't bother to go beyond 'folk knowledge' (which usually gets it wrong)'.

I'd like to see a _well researched _, believable, Eurocentric setting that moves away from pseudo-Northern Europe (more pseudo than Northern) every now and then.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Actually, its mostly pseudo-English settings, with bits of French thrown in, and some Germanic or Norse barbarian cultures at the fringes.

Plenty of scope in the rest of Europe.


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## JBarry22 (Dec 12, 2011)

Coral Moore said:


> While I agree with your point, I think a story about the "unchosen" one isn't quite as interesting. I mean, do you really want to read a story about Bob, the hero's brother who just wanted a chance to be awesome too? Meh. Maybe, but I don't think Bob could carry his own story very far.


No, but that wasn't my point. I don't understand why all heroes have to be "chosen". When a firefighter runs into a burning building, he doesn't do it because it was foretold in some ancient text found in a cave in Bangladesh. The kid he saves from the fire is also never the "chosen one" meant to save all mankind from the coming apocalypse. It can still be a great story without the prophecy, and the characters can still be important without their heroism having been foretold.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Oh all of the above!  Also I'm tired of beautiful main characters.  Sour grapes?  Could be!  

Also petulant teenagers.  And that whole "they are fighting because they are attracted to each other" thing.

People who learn impossibly complex skills like fighting or magic after a week or less, or with no training at all.

More seriously, I also don't like sexual violence being glamorized.   Or villains who are just Chinese/Muslims/Russians/Nazis/Black people in disguise.


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## drenfrow (Jan 27, 2010)

Some of mine have been mentioned already.  I want a series to wrap up in three books.  More than that and it feels like you're just never getting an end to the story.  Also, my biggest pet peeve with fantasy is unpronounceable names.  If an author is going to use them how about a pronunciation guide, is that asking too much? 

I don't mind tried and true plots if they are done really well and have at least some twist that makes them different.

I was looking through my goodreads shelves and I realize that the last two fantasy series that I loved were definitely not the same old-same old.  Last year I really enjoyed The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie, very dark and gritty.  Today I am finishing The Inheritance Triology by NK Jemisin which is on my top 10 list for the year.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

mashadutoit said:


> Oh all of the above! Also I'm tired of beautiful main characters. Sour grapes? Could be!
> ...


Worst of all: beautiful young women with green eyes. 

(Hey, I'm all for them in real life, but it's become such a cliche in all sorts of fiction, not just fantasy.)


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

flipside said:


> Euro-centric settings.


But if you're going to do them, do them with the detail necessary to make them feel right - Think Katheryn Kurtz or Lawhead. Don't do the Ren Faire version of medieval Europe.


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## Chris Strange (Apr 4, 2011)

You want to know what else I'm sick of in fantasy. Magic frickin' swords. Or swords made of [insert made-up material] steel.

Where are all the magic halberds? The treasured flail that has been a symbol of the House for generations? Gimme a pretty-looking javelin, at least.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Part of the reason I love reading sword and sorcery short stories/novellas, like of the kind written by Robert E Howard, Fritz Leiber and co, is that much of that stuff is missing.


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## CharlieLange (Nov 22, 2010)

Antagonists who are only bent on destroying or taking over the world and have control over dragons or an undead army. Every fantasy story does not have to be a "save the world from destruction" scenario. As was mentioned earlier, usually in this same scenario a nobody becomes a hero, either through a "chosen one" or "serendipity" character arc.

Orcs, trolls and ogres. Why are they always bad?


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

CharlieLange said:


> Orcs, trolls and ogres. Why are they always bad?


Not in Warcraft  Everyone knows they are the good guys (For the Horde!) while the humans, elves and dwarves are the narrow-minded, bigoted, xenophobic war-mongers


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## CharlieLange (Nov 22, 2010)

A.S. Warwick said:


> Not in Warcraft  Everyone knows they are the good guys (For the Horde!) while the humans, elves and dwarves are the narrow-minded, bigoted, xenophobic war-mongers


Exception that proves the rule? lol touche.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Seleya said:


> Ditto. Only, in the view of this European, that most often traslates into : 'settings that pretend to be Medieval Europe but the author didn't have a clue and didn't bother to go beyond 'folk knowledge' (which usually gets it wrong)'.
> 
> I'd like to see a _well researched _, believable, Eurocentric setting that moves away from pseudo-Northern Europe (more pseudo than Northern) every now and then.


Yes this.

Because many of the pseudo-European settings are about as European as Disneyland.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Sean Patrick Fox said:


> What are some plots/characters/themes that you're tired of in fantasy works?


Prophecies. I never want to see another one. That said, fantasy without prophecies or farm boys turning into great warriors would be like a romance novel in which the hero is ordinary and humble. Even if someone wrote it, who would read it?


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

Prophecies. I'm with you all there. The only one that didn't worry me recently was Harry Potter's, but I think it was ok because it worked around actual story events, rather than being "just because".

I was trying out an editor for my own fantasy book, which I made sure wasn't prophecy based on purpose, and this editor suggested I make the following improvements to the story-
1. Start the story with some background about the land's history.
2. Spend more time talking about what the characters are eating and wearing.
3. Work a prophecy into the story to make it more "epic".

Yep. That editor wasn't for me! 
Number 1 of that list is also something I can't stand in fantasy or any genre- the narrative at the beginning to describe a bunch of backstory which just goes and gets explained again in story anyway.


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## sarahsbloke (Sep 24, 2011)

A.S. Warwick said:


> Elves. I hate, detest and loath the pointy-eared dandelion-eating holier-than-thou pretentious gits. Tolkien gets a free pass because 1) he did them first and 2) if you've read the backstory you know that they aren't the perfect race that so many knocks offs tend to make them.
> 
> Oh, and Pratchett also gets a free pass as his are downright evil, which is what elves are.


You should read, Three Hearts and Three Lions - Poul Anderson
His male elves are vicious killers, and the female elves enjoy kinky sex.


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## Geemont (Nov 18, 2008)

Dara England said:


> Prophecies. I never want to see another one. That said, fantasy without prophecies or farm boys turning into great warriors would be like a romance novel in which the hero is ordinary and humble. Even if someone wrote it, who would read it?


What about a fantasy where the prophecies turn out to be a whole lot of horsesh!t written by someone after down after smoking too much opium?


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## JBarry22 (Dec 12, 2011)

CharlieLange said:


> Every fantasy story does not have to be a "save the world from destruction" scenario.


Some make believe version of me wants to tattoo that on my butt. You're absolutely 100% right.


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## Mark Boss (Nov 9, 2011)

Great idea for a thread!

1.  Inherited magic.  Why must magery be genetic? Why can't you learn magic the way you learn carpentry?
2.  Happy Shire settings that will be destroyed if...  I think rural life in most fantasy settings should be tough, not idyllic. 
3.  One Super Powerful Artifact.  We'll win the war against overwhelming odds if only we can find this one ring or sword or whatever.
4.  How come the bad guy is always a sorceror and never a fighter? Just once I want to see the villain come down out of his tower, get in the front of the shield wall, and do some damage.
5.  Fellowships.  Do we really need a representative of every single group in the party in order to complete the mission? Maybe we should leave the drunk gnome at the castle?
6.  Wildly unrealistic fight scenes.  I once read a scene where a single idiot on horseback (armed with a sword but no shield or armor) charged uphill and routed a party of 20 archers.  Apparently his horse was so agile it could dodge arrows.  Author should have made the horse the protagonist.

I could go on, but I think a lot of this comes down to seeing devices we liked the first five times driven into the ground by overuse.  And honestly, I love Erikson's Malazan series, but I have dedicated fantasy reading friends that don't.  To each their own.

Merry Christmas all!


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Mark Boss said:


> I could go on, but I think a lot of this comes down to seeing devices we liked the first five times driven into the ground by overuse.


THIS. I see someone do something brilliantly and then 100 others come along and make a hash of the very same thing. If you're going to use a standard fantasy meme, then at least have the decency to do it well.


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## Chris Strange (Apr 4, 2011)

Selina Fenech said:


> I was trying out an editor for my own fantasy book, which I made sure wasn't prophecy based on purpose, and this editor suggested I make the following improvements to the story-
> 1. Start the story with some background about the land's history.
> 2. Spend more time talking about what the characters are eating and wearing.
> 3. Work a prophecy into the story to make it more "epic".
> ...


I'm surprised that editor didn't want you to put in a hundred pages of appendices as well, with detailed family trees, pronunciation guides, and the lineages left by every character in the book, right down to the barmaid's pet cat in chapter 3.


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## S Jaffe (Jul 3, 2011)

Mark Boss said:


> I think a lot of this comes down to seeing devices we liked the first five times driven into the ground by overuse.


This happens so much because of market forces. Publishers saw Tolkien do well, so they wanted as many Tolkien-esque stories as they could get. Right now, it's urban fantasy -- vamps and werewolves and such. For me, I get tired of maps.

Well, let me clarify. I can have a real appreciation for some of the beautiful maps that grace many books, but I dislike when an author knows there will be a map and then relies on the map to help the reader see what's going on. The book should be able to stand on its own and the map just be a bonus. But some books are so poorly described in geographic terms that you must have the map.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Mark Boss said:


> .. Author should have made the horse the protagonist.


Now THAT would be interesting!


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

All of the above.

But I really hate quests. Especially magical quests to find the mythical plot-device-A, which will send our heroes to Town-B, just in time for Event-C to happen which in turn will generate plot-device-D hidden by peasant-girl-who-is-really-a-sorceress-E, which will SAVE THE WORLD from evil-tyrant-F... (yawn)


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

So much of the above is spot on!

I don't mind an author using formula elements or cliches, but turn them and twist around great characters to present them back to us in a fresh and invigorated way!


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## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

Totally agree on the quests. I know it's like the ur-story that's supposed to tap into our collective unconscious, but if it's so obvious to be painful, it can't really be unconscious anymore, right?   

Other things I can't read anymore:

- vampires

- urban fantasy with plucky first-person narrators (who usually track down demons) 

- generic fantasy settings with lots of inns and barkeepers and dwarfs and trolls

- magic thingies that pop up exactly when the protagonists need them without being previously introduced or without a price

I could probably read books or short stories with all of these elements if they were introduced in an engaging or original way, or something else about the story had already caught me and drawn me in. A short story parody of all these tropes, if done right, would probably have me rolling on the floor. 

Come to think of it, that reminds me of The Princess Bride (book and movie) which I love, and which uses a ton of over-used fantasy cliches in such a way that they are hilarious.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

So, as some of the more complex video games became popular, I noticed a disturbing trend in just about every book I picked up (I'm just lucky, I guess) that the writers were writing like they were narrating a first person shooter game.

"Down came the spider monster.  BLAM BLAM BLAM! The hero turn and pulled out his bazooka.  BLAM BLAM BLAM.  It fell over dead, only to be followed by a horde of zombies.  BLAM BLAM BLAM!  The hero nailed them all right through the head.  He wiped the sweat from his brow.  The floor cracked and he fell three stories, luckily, he landed on his feet just in time to face TEN spider monsters.  BLAM BLAM BLAM!"

This is pretty much a word for word quote.  I should probably footnote it so I don't get accused of plagiarism.


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## EStoops (Oct 24, 2011)

1.Random costume porn moments.  I love fabric (it borders on fetish) I hate that modern clothing in the west is gawdawful boring AND lacking in utility. Costume porn moments generally fill me with glee. Alas, when the hero is getting ready for battle and he's wearing a billowing red velvet, silk lined cape that is described in luxurious detail, it seems quite out of place and....
2. He can't really do that in those clothes. Uuuugh. I'm painfully, painfully tired of our victorian-esque, upperclass heroines talking about their slavish devotion to (apocryphal) tightlacing into a (era inappropriate) long-line corset, and then proceeding to run a mile through London (in her satin dance slippers), and then punch out her attackers. As someone that appreciates historical undergarments for both the male and female form, I can assure you that they can't do that in those clothes. (In fact, I'm presenting a panel about this at an upcoming nerd herd convention.)
3. I hate impossible clothes too. Grrr. 
4. I also hate when military men apparently NEVER get out of their dress uniforms, even when in battle.

In fact, it probably sets my teeth on edge EVERYTIME the clothes are just plain wrong unless (like Harry Dresden) there is a good in-book reason for it.

Not that I'm a snob or anything about this.... of course not.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

EStoops said:


> Not that I'm a snob or anything about this.... of course not.


Hey. If you're going to geek out, don't do it halfway I always say.


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## MelissaBuell (Oct 8, 2010)

This thread is very helpful as a writer of fantasy.  I know what to avoid in order to not irritate readers. 

And yes, Rapunzel sitting around waiting to be saved is quite irritating to me, too.


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## John Hennessy (Sep 7, 2011)

Most of what has been mentioned here, but my biggest right now is the ultimate evil versus the ultimate good. I really liked Glen Cook's first three in The Black Company. I haven't read the rest yet. I would like to see more not so good not so evil, the people who are real.


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## Dani Collins (Jan 14, 2012)

Going back to number of books in a series....

For the most part, I hate books that require me to buy another one to find out how the story ends.  Don't nickel and dime me to death and really, don't make me wait a year to find out what happens next.  

Having said that, I like a meaty story that I can sink into for a while.


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## UnicornEmily (Jul 2, 2011)

I completely agree! Particularly about the "child of prophecy" thing . . . oh, boy, about the child of prophecy thing.

I'm sometimes sick of only ever seeing peasants or royalty. Why can't we see middle class merchant main characters more frequently? You know, people who actually have to work for a living? At something other than farming?

(I guess it makes sense if it's set in a world that mainly uses feudalism as the economic system. But, even then, I'm starting to get sick of this. Where are the fantasy worlds with socialist or anarchic societies? Why can't magic be reflected in democracy?)

I want to see more fantasy series set in the future -- cyberpunk, technomancy, whatever. Those blends of science fiction and fantasy can make for _really_ cool stories.

Admittedly, I also find most action scenes overly boring . . .


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## UnicornEmily (Jul 2, 2011)

Oh, yeah! And I'm also really, _really_ sick of "the guardian / parent figure has to die at some point in the course of the story, because the heroic cycle says so." Or, worse, "I can't possibly ever tell my parents I have these secret powers" (if it's contemporary fantasy, particularly for young adult or middle grade) "when there's no good reason why I couldn't sit them down and tell them the truth, good grief."


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## 41352 (Apr 4, 2011)

I think others have already mentioned most of my pet peeves  

Tolkienesque elves - or elves that their only differentiation is their pointy ears
green-eyed heroes/heroines
chosen ones
prophecies
orcs
sketchy worlds that seem too much like ours
worlds based on medieval northern Europe but with things from other places (like chocolate and potatoes or tomatoes, this is a very personal peeve)


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## lib2b (Apr 6, 2010)

Ha! This whole thread reminds me of Diana Wynne Jones's _Tough Guide To Fantasyland_, basically a spoofy travel guide to generic "fantasyland" that points out many of the things that are overdone in fantasy. A very funny read for those who read a lot of fantasy.

I can deal with anything in fantasy if it's done well, but I am sick of Mary Sue heroes/heroines.


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## sarahsbloke (Sep 24, 2011)

lib2b said:


> Ha! This whole thread reminds me of Diana Wynne Jones's _Tough Guide To Fantasyland_, basically a spoofy travel guide to generic "fantasyland" that points out many of the things that are overdone in fantasy. A very funny read for those who read a lot of fantasy.
> 
> I can deal with anything in fantasy if it's done well, but I am sick of Mary Sue heroes/heroines.


That's listed as 'Romance'. I don't read romance.


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## lib2b (Apr 6, 2010)

sarahsbloke said:


> That's listed as 'Romance'. I don't read romance.


Strange...it's definitely not romance. I'd categorize it as humor.


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## jumbojohnny (Dec 25, 2011)

There's fantasy and fantasy; I am well tired of the Nordic inspired tales, of deep mumbo-jumbo even when asking for the salt. I suppose part of it is just being tired of the genre full stop, which is unfair on the quality evergreen stuff such as Tolkien's offerings (well, 5, 1 of which was a glorified reference book!) But, read too many of 'em and read some of 'em too many times. However, the contemporary fantasy stuff, no wolf skins, broadswords or shouting to Odin just because you didn't get a second helping of roast virgin at supper in sight, is, or, can be I should say, much much better. But the old drawing the line caper starts then, and even the discussions over that have become tiresome.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

lib2b said:


> Ha! This whole thread reminds me of Diana Wynne Jones's _Tough Guide To Fantasyland_, basically a spoofy travel guide to generic "fantasyland" that points out many of the things that are overdone in fantasy. A very funny read for those who read a lot of fantasy.
> 
> I can deal with anything in fantasy if it's done well, but I am sick of Mary Sue heroes/heroines.





sarahsbloke said:


> That's listed as 'Romance'. I don't read romance.


Hmmmm. I can't find anywhere where it's listed as Romance...certainly not at Amazon.

Betsy


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Magic


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## EStoops (Oct 24, 2011)

jumbojohnny said:


> There's fantasy and fantasy; I am well tired of the Nordic inspired tales, of deep mumbo-jumbo even when asking for the salt. I suppose part of it is just being tired of the genre full stop, which is unfair on the quality evergreen stuff such as Tolkien's offerings (well, 5, 1 of which was a glorified reference book!) But, read too many of 'em and read some of 'em too many times. However, the contemporary fantasy stuff, no wolf skins, broadswords or shouting to Odin just because you didn't get a second helping of roast virgin at supper in sight, is, or, can be I should say, much much better. But the old drawing the line caper starts then, and even the discussions over that have become tiresome.


Minor confession here: I'm pagan. Have been for 15 years. Random mis-appropriation of actual religions bugs me. There is a famous, mainstream author that misappropriated JEWISH mythology. I guess I can semi-excuse appropriation of a generally-accepted-as-dead religion or sect, but who goes mucking with the actual cannon of a living religion? It shows a real lack of conscience. I stopped reading.


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## MLouring (Jan 15, 2012)

I can only agree with most of the things mentioned in this thread! There's so many overdone or just plain ridiculous things people like to throw into fantasy...
Personally, the thing I hate most(And that's not just in fantasy) is useless female characters who need to be saved all the time and can't do anything for themselves. They are incredible annoying even as supporting characters, but I absolutely can't read a book where they are the main character...
On the other hand, over-powered characters who never lose also completely ruins a book for me. 

Give us some tough, but realistic characters who get beat up badly every once in a while!


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## sarahsbloke (Sep 24, 2011)

lib2b said:


> Ha! This whole thread reminds me of Diana Wynne Jones's _Tough Guide To Fantasyland_, basically a spoofy travel guide to generic "fantasyland" that points out many of the things that are overdone in fantasy. A very funny read for those who read a lot of fantasy.
> 
> I can deal with anything in fantasy if it's done well, but I am sick of Mary Sue heroes/heroines.





sarahsbloke said:


> That's listed as 'Romance'. I don't read romance.





Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hmmmm. I can't find anywhere where it's listed as Romance...certainly not at Amazon.
> 
> Betsy


Yes, sorry Lib & Betsy, my reply wasn't posted in answer to that post.
Not sure if it was a mental aberration on my part, or something strange with the forum.
Alternatively, I was naughty yesterday, and my post might have been edited, causing the strangeness.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

sarahsbloke said:


> Yes, sorry Lib & Betsy, my reply wasn't posted in answer to that post.
> Not sure if it was a mental aberration on my part, or something strange with the forum.
> Alternatively, I was naughty yesterday, and my post might have been edited, causing the strangeness.


Aaaah... That explains the confusion... And no, that particular post hasn't been edited...you would see a notation at the bottom if it had been. 

Betsy


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## Math (Oct 13, 2011)

Seems to me, fantasy is a very tough genre to give fresh ideas to.

Mainly because, seems to me, fantasy _per se_ is usually:
1. A quest
2. A 'one man against the world/establishment' story
3. A 'coming of age/self-discovery' story

Off the top of my head everything from The Hobbit/LOTR/Conan/Belgariad/Amber etc. just seems to fit these three things. How can you make that fresh? Tough call (if you aren't Terry Pratchett).

By the way - my answer? See 1 to 3...


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Math said:


> Seems to me, fantasy is a very tough genre to give fresh ideas to.
> 
> Mainly because, seems to me, fantasy _per se_ is usually:
> 1. A quest
> ...


True, but the things which bore me about many fantasy books and movies are not the things you mention, but the way in which the quest or coming of age is presented. A quest set - well, set pretty much anywhere in the world except Europe and in any time period except the Pseudo Middle Ages would be a great improvement. And coming of age of somebody who is not a farm boy turned warrior or any of the other cliches can also be fascinating.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm also tired of such cliches, the trick is to watch for them to be used in fresh and innovative ways. All genres have cliches and formulas, and it's easy to find handfuls of titles that are just rehashes of better known books. None of that means that you can't still find good reads that stand tall and fresh.

Personally, it's the cliched quest to avoid the end of the world that bores me to tears, most particularly if the end of the world is being overseen by a two dimensional dark lord.


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## Brad Murgen (Oct 17, 2011)

Masha du Toit said:


> True, but the things which bore me about many fantasy books and movies are not the things you mention, but the way in which the quest or coming of age is presented. A quest set - well, set pretty much anywhere in the world except Europe and in any time period except the Pseudo Middle Ages would be a great improvement. And coming of age of somebody who is not a farm boy turned warrior or any of the other cliches can also be fascinating.


Yeah, fantasy storylines with non-Western settings or elements are in short supply comparatively. I was actually looking forward to Robert Jordan's next series, _Infinity of Heaven_, which featured a Shogun-like society... unfortunate that he died before writing it.


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## EStoops (Oct 24, 2011)

Brad Murgen said:


> Yeah, fantasy storylines with non-Western settings or elements are in short supply comparatively. I was actually looking forward to Robert Jordan's next series, _Infinity of Heaven_, which featured a Shogun-like society... unfortunate that he died before writing it.


The problem with that, IME, is most of the english-language non-western fantasies are written by westerners... and it shows.


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## LisaBlackwood (Jan 12, 2012)

JBarry22 said:


> I like your first one... prophecies. I hate them. There are so many "chosen ones" out there, I feel like the "unchosen" are actually a minority at this point.
> 
> I also think the cyclical "this has happened before and will happen again" stories are overdone.


LOL. So true.


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## LisaBlackwood (Jan 12, 2012)

tahliaN said:


> Long convoluted plots with masses of characters, unpronouncible names, long & unecessarily detailed descriptions, lots of wars and politics. Yep I'm pretty much over sword and scorcey unless it avoids all that eg Graceling.
> 
> I'm sick of vampires and the christian style angels & demons stories, but I like demons that aren't associated with god, angels and hell. Theres a lot of leeway to be very creative with the idea of demons.
> 
> I don't mind prophecies if they're in the background, but not ones that are in your face all the time.


I love this thread....

BTW, if you like non-christain angels in a unique setting, try reading Alan Campbell's Scar Night, Iron Angel and God of Clocks. They are dark, and very different, but I liked.


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## shelbymhailstone (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes, I'm with everyone else in expressing my love for this thread.

Probably what bothers me most is the speed at which the protagonist is suddenly able to pick up on important skills like magic, swordfighting, etc. If you were just ordinary before, you probably can't take on the bad guy two months later unless you were lying to me about the ordinary thing.


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## soofy (Nov 26, 2011)

Lursa (was 9MMare) said:


> Magic


Definitely!


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Can't stand fantasy books featuring little people. With the exception of Hobbits (they were first), or maybe Kenders, the fantasy genre would be better off without anymore offshoots of the aforementioned variety.


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## EStoops (Oct 24, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Can't stand fantasy books featuring little people. With the exception of Hobbits (they were first), or maybe Kenders, the fantasy genre would be better off without anymore offshoots of the aforementioned variety.


Uhm, "little people" is a real life term meaning dwarves, midgets, etc. Do you mean child-sized fantasy races, perhaps?


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

EStoops said:


> Uhm, "little people" is a real life term meaning dwarves, midgets, etc. Do you mean child-sized fantasy races, perhaps?


Correction noted (I'm not big on political correctness). Those lil' guys, tike-size fictional race of people who stand about wee high and tend to pop up in fantasy books almost as much as Orcs. I love me some Hobbits. But after being introduced to the Nelwyns in Willow, and reading Dragonlance, I could do without seeing any more cheap knockoffs of Tolkien's marquee race.


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## EStoops (Oct 24, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Correction noted (I'm not big on political correctness). Those lil' guys, tike-size fictional race of people who stand about wee high and tend to pop up in fantasy books almost as much as Orcs. I love me some Hobbits. But after being introduced to the Nelwyns in Willow, and reading Dragonlance, I could do without seeing any more cheap knockoffs of Tolkien's marquee race.


I'm one politically correct blunder away from being mistaken as terminally insensitive myself, so I understand completely. However, a reader could google you, see just that one post and it could be a fiasco..... I'm learning to think about these things.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

EStoops said:


> However, a reader could google you, see just that one post and it could be a fiasco.....


Then again, it could make for one great PR fest!


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## Brad Murgen (Oct 17, 2011)

EStoops said:


> The problem with that, IME, is most of the english-language non-western fantasies are written by westerners... and it shows.


True, but at least they are trying something different, and many readers probably wouldn't know how inaccurate something might be.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I noticed "prophecy" is a really big turnoff for lots of people, and I'll throw my hat in with that ring. In fact it's pretty much my #1 "autodisqualifies" for fantasy at this point. Blech.


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## EStoops (Oct 24, 2011)

Brad Murgen said:


> True, but at least they are trying something different, and many readers probably wouldn't know how inaccurate something might be.


I get what you are saying, but I'd rather see something go UNDONE, than done badly.


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## gwenperkins (Jan 18, 2012)

"Common" as a language.

And angels/the war in heaven. Oh, am I tired of the war in heaven concept. I suspect that I would be more open to the idea if it was done from a non-Christian mythology or if the writers that I've read who write this knew more about the angelic orders/the faith that they were writing about.

_no self promotion outside the book bazaar_


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## RSHunter88 (Jan 17, 2012)

I've seen this mentioned already but I'm tired of faux-northern European settings. Give me fantasy based on other cultures and mythologies. That's why I like the Earthsea series--it's not a Euro-centric setting.

I'm also pretty tired of prophecies. That's definitely among my biggest pet peeves.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

I love big, imaginative fantasy worlds, but I'm really tired of "epic" stories. 

Why is there always an "all-powerful" villain? Why is the "entire world" always in danger? 

Personally, I like The Hobbit a lot more than The Lord of the Rings. Bilbo feels more like a real person, surrounded by real people, getting into real trouble and solving real problems (and having more fun!).

Anyone else tired of "epic"-ness?


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## jtw78 (Jan 20, 2012)

I think one of the reasons that prophecy and the common person themes are so prevalent is explained by Joseph Campbell in _The Hero with a Thousand Faces_. It's the archetypal story that is at the root of so much of human history and myth.

But, when it's just slapped together it feels lame and overdone. It's the same as sitcoms or action movies. There's a formulaic plot that has been proven to work, but when it's done in a formulaic manner it's stomach turning.

I get tired of worlds with boring magic. I've seen the D&D spell system dozens of times. Please, come up with something new.


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## Brad Murgen (Oct 17, 2011)

Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> I love big, imaginative fantasy worlds, but I'm really tired of "epic" stories.
> 
> Why is there always an "all-powerful" villain? Why is the "entire world" always in danger?
> 
> ...


You probably wouldn't like _The Malazan Book of the Fallen_ then... pushes epicness to the point of absurdity.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> Why is there always an "all-powerful" villain? Why is the "entire world" always in danger?


And --- if you _must_ put the _entire world_ in danger --- at least don't sideline _everybody in the world_ except the hero and his merry band of immediate friends.

If you pull an "X files" and make everyone _but_ the hero stupid, evil, corrupt, utterly helpless or insane --- then why is the world worth saving?

At that point, isn't the hero just saving the world so he'll have a place to live?

And if that's the case --- isn't the "hero" just acting in self-defense?

Don't get me wrong, acting in self-defense is widely held to be justified --- but shouldn't heroism be more than glorified self-defense? Shouldn't there be a difference between "justified" and "heroic" ?


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## John Hennessy (Sep 7, 2011)

Chris Strange said:


> You want to know what else I'm sick of in fantasy. Magic frickin' swords. Or swords made of [insert made-up material] steel.
> 
> Where are all the magic halberds? The treasured flail that has been a symbol of the House for generations? Gimme a pretty-looking javelin, at least.


How about some wicked sai? I have a huge book on ancient weapons . . . there is so much more out there than just swords and axes.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm not into elves, sword-fights, purple moons, worlds that have two moons, magical bridges, or fantasy stories that seem to consist of an almost entirely male cast.


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## RSHunter88 (Jan 17, 2012)

Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> Anyone else tired of "epic"-ness?


I know epic fantasy is a genre, but the word "epic" is used way too much nowadays, especially to describe things that are big or cool/awesome.


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## Martel47 (Jun 14, 2010)

One word...



Spoiler



Fantasy! I pick it up and it usually gets put down after just a chapter or two.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

RSHunter88 said:


> I know epic fantasy is a genre, but the word "epic" is used way too much nowadays, especially to describe things that are big or cool/awesome.


I agree. I recently read something in a different genre, The Jakarta Pandemic, and it was based almost completely within a neighborhood. The scope and storyline were very appropriate and well done. There was a great variety in the people, strategies, philosophies, physical battles/moral struggles, and consequences within that neighborhood. There was human tragedy and humor, life and death, winning and losing...all within that smaller scope.

I think it was smart on the author's part, even tho (as usual) I so yearned to know more about how the pandemic affected the rest of the world as well.


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## jtw78 (Jan 20, 2012)

The point about all-male cast is big. Also a bunch of dudes going to rescue a helpless damsel in distress. Ladies can do stuff now (10 points for identifying the source of that reference).


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## Craig Allen (Apr 2, 2011)

This is a great thread.  I agree the prophecy thing.  I prefer my characters to have the freedom to set their own destiny by the choices they make, for good or ill.

Given that, if a unique twist on any of the above (including prophecy) can make me change my mind.  I suppose in fiction it's all been done anyway.  Now we are just putting new twists on what has been done.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

shelbymhailstone said:


> Probably what bothers me most is the speed at which the protagonist is suddenly able to pick up on important skills like magic, swordfighting, etc. If you were just ordinary before, you probably can't take on the bad guy two months later unless you were lying to me about the ordinary thing.


You're right about this, guy, and it happens a lot. It actually takes _years_ to learn to use a sword well.


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## EStoops (Oct 24, 2011)

Tony Richards said:


> You're right about this, guy, and it happens a lot. It actually takes _years_ to learn to use a sword well.


Pretty much any skill takes a long time to master. At least in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time he clearly states that Rand is working more of Lews Therin's memories (the memories of a master swordsman) than his own ability. It's a bit of a cop out now, but it was I think one of the first to take that approach.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2012)

My short list...

1, Stock names, such as Ironfist, Shadow Forest, Fire Mountain, Blackhand, Stonefist, Stormwind, etc, etc...
2, Unpronouncable character names with lot of apostrophes, TH, RG, W, X, Y, Z. Or standard names with one letter change, i.e.: Jessyca.
3, Funny sidekicks (They're usually irritating), stupid sidekicks, with stupid short names, Kag, Tag, Vag (Usually for twins or fictive pet companion)
4, Dragons in general
5, Speaking dragons
6, Friendly speaking dragons
7, "The Knight, the Elven, the Thief, the Dwarven, the Wizard" & Co. Adventure Group
8, Out of nowhere solutions
9, Class defined skills
10, Mana and potion
11, Point A to Point B adventures (Route; town, mountain, dark forest, dragon cave, evil HQ... possible secondary stations; castle, pit, ogre farm, dwarven mine, elven forest)
12, Low IQ slow giants (I'd gladly read about a fast, intellectuel giant, just once in my life time.  )
13, Characters without any remorse.
14, Cliche and stock Angels and Demons (God vs. Lucifer round X trillion, War in Heaven, War in Hell, I'm so serious "Archangel Raphael", I'm so evil, so I'm grumbling and crying so loud "Demons")
15, Stock presentation of angels in general
16, First grade katana master ninjutsu thief dwarves (Ninja characters in general)
17, Common language (Not even a tiny dialect, nothing... just one language.)
18, Prophecy
19, Only the MC knows everything. Everyone else is dumb around him or her.
20, Stock weapons, wizard staffs
21, LOTR copy-pastes with stock LOTR characters, Harry Potter copy-pastes with stock HP characters... copy pastes in general

+1, Dragons (If I forgot to mention them.).


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Guardian said:


> My short list...
> 
> 1, Stock names, such as Ironfist, Shadow Forest, Fire Mountain, Blackhand, Stonefist, Stormwind, etc, etc...
> 2, Unpronouncable character names with lot of apostrophes, TH, RG, W, X, Y, Z. Or standard names with one letter change, i.e.: Jessyca.
> ...


What's left?


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2012)

Plenty other things. This was my short list.


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## smallblondehippy (Jan 20, 2012)

One of the things that drives me totally mouth-foaming crazy are names with apostrophes in them. Why are they needed? Do authors think it makes the names look exotic? It just makes them annoying to pronounce!



Nebula7 said:


> Another agreement. Too much prophecy.
> 
> I also get tired of names and places that can not be pronounced.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

smallblondehippy said:


> One of the things that drives me totally mouth-foaming crazy are names with apostrophes in them. Why are they needed? Do authors think it makes the names look exotic? It just makes them annoying to pronounce!


Didn't it start with McCaffrey? Her explanation was that dragon riders needed short names so they could communicate easily with each other - so when you became a rider your name got shortened. So Famanoran became F'nor (OK, so I Wikipediad that. Had no idea what his name was before it got shortened.)

Not_ terribly_ convincing, but at least a reason. 

Did other writers apostrophe names before her?


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2012)

smallblondehippy said:


> One of the things that drives me totally mouth-foaming crazy are names with apostrophes in them. Why are they needed? Do authors think it makes the names look exotic? It just makes them annoying to pronounce!


Don't have a clue. But I've made a running joke about it in one of my books' second volume. In that story the heroine's hometown has an apostrophe in it's name and no one knows why as you can pronounce it well without that apostrophe. Only the heroine knows it's true story, but she never tells it to anyone. 

But in the reality that apostrophe got there accidentaly, then I deliberately left it there and used it as a tertiary background story element for that town.


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## Ergodic Mage (Jan 23, 2012)

Good, enjoyable thread. Most has been mentioned already
The Quest
The Prophecy
The Artifact
The Hero King
The Leader
Zero to Hero protagonists
Supreme or manaical evil antagonists
Mary Sue characters
Psuedo-Europe with Magic

Adding to that
Stories that are no different than Dungeons and Dragon play.
Magic just to have magic. And magic with the explaination of "its magic".
When "the plan" inevitably goes wrong, just wing it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Masha du Toit said:


> Didn't it start with McCaffrey? Her explanation was that dragon riders needed short names so they could communicate easily with each other - so when you became a rider your name got shortened. So Famanoran became F'nor (OK, so I Wikipediad that. Had no idea what his name was before it got shortened.)
> 
> Not_ terribly_ convincing, but at least a reason.
> 
> Did other writers apostrophe names before her?


My recollection is that it also was a sort of honorific. . .so rather than saying "Dragon Rider Famanoran" it was "F'nor". And it was consistent and logical.


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## M.S. Verish (Feb 26, 2010)

I honestly don't mind any of the cliches as long as the author does his/her best to put a refreshing spin on things. Good character development and worldbuilding can usually eclipse a tired idea. JMO.


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## RichardHein (Jun 8, 2011)

The Greatest X.  I'm tired of reading about the most powerful wizards or the best sword fighters or the luckiest rogues.  Give me some average protagonists that actually have to work to overcome odds.  Sure, there's something somewhat compelling when reading about a powerful something or other kicking heads in by the dozens, but it grows tiresome when that's their defining feature.

Also, protagonists that always succeed. Can't some of their decisions result in failure - or, better, catastrophe?


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

LOLOLOL

Now, after reading the whole thread, esp. as it has built....ah, why _do _people read fantasy?


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

Lursa (was 9MMare) said:


> why _do _people read fantasy?


You mean; these days. Good question. I haven't read fantasy stories in the last... I don't know, five-six years? I rather created my own world. Honestly I don't really care about any other stock fantasy stories anymore. After a time I was tired of the elements what I mentioned earlier; the talking friendly dragons, wizard boy copy pastes and especially the "I'm a LOTR fan", "I love Dragon Age", "I play WoW", "I married to my D&D dice", "I revealed the deepest secrets of my holy book, so I know how angels work" novels where the blurb tells where from the author got the little spark, what book (s)he read or what game (s)he played prior (s)he started to write the latest masterpiece.


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## theMillersTale (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm late to the thread and this has pretty much already been said, but I hate those really bad, poorly imagined, awkwardly spelled fantasy names. Especially when three of the principal characters have the same first initial. 

When the big three are named Agnall, Agrendial, and Ageswyll, I find myself throwing the book away after the first few pages out of sheer confusion/frustration. You shouldn't make your reader work that hard in a fantasy book. Has anyone else mentally read a made-up name as "capital A" for the rest of the book after finding yourself unable to pronounce it reliably after the first few times it appears? If you're a writer and you're making up a name, that's fine, but at least try to spell it in such a way that your reader can make a decent attempt at pronouncing it.

My other pet peeves with fantasy are unimaginative settings and plots, but that seems to be true with a lot of the books I read these days.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> My recollection is that it also was a sort of honorific. . .so rather than saying "Dragon Rider Famanoran" it was "F'nor". And it was consistent and logical.


True. And her other names are actually pretty good. They did not sound made up, they seemed to fit into the culture she was portraying. Robinton, Lessa, and so on.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2012)

Werewolves. They're rarely done well.


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## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

This thread kind of took off in my absence. Rock on!


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## Michael A. Boyadjian (Jul 23, 2011)

I feel like I might be alone on this one, but the excessive use of unusual creatures and non-human races in a story/series sometimes bothers me.


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## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

Michael A. Boyadjian said:


> I feel like I might be alone on this one, but the excessive use of unusual creatures and non-human races in a story/series sometimes bothers me.


I agree. It's nice seeing something of the exotic in a story, but I want to read about people, and that usually means humans. A related pet peeve: when said unusual creatures and non-human races act just like humans, have similar cultures, values, physiology, etc.


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## Ergodic Mage (Jan 23, 2012)

Lursa (was 9MMare) said:


> Now, after reading the whole thread, esp. as it has built....ah, why _do _people read fantasy?


Well I don't read much fantasy these days, but that has more to do with fantasy role playing game I'm in (such as D&D).
I think fantasy is suppose to give the reader a feeling of uniqueness that can not be found elsewhere. But when different fantasy books have many of the same ideas the feel of uniqueness reduces and hence reader enjoyment (well at least my enjoyment).


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Ergodic Mage said:


> Well I don't read much fantasy these days, but that has more to do with fantasy role playing game I'm in (such as D&D).
> I think fantasy is suppose to give the reader a feeling of uniqueness that can not be found elsewhere. But when different fantasy books have many of the same ideas the feel of uniqueness reduces and hence reader enjoyment (well at least my enjoyment).


Interesting perspective, never read that before.

OTOH, I do get that from the sci-fi I read.

Thanks!


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Has no one mentioned vampires? Personally I love the original idea of them, blood sucking, night crawling monsters with no soul. But this new romantic vampire - aagh! Just the thought makes me sick to my stomach.

As for werewolves I can take them or leave them.

Cheers, Greg.


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## M.P. Jones (Dec 28, 2011)

I can imagine some poor fantasy writers, thinking they have the next best seller on their hands, reading this thread and looking at their manuscript and thinking:

- unpronounceable names -check
- blacksmith turned king - check
- prophecies galore - check
- too many books in the series - check
- people coming back from the dead - check

followed by them using their lifes work for fire kindling.

I'm glad I stuck to childrens books!

MP Jones
They Shoot Birds, Don't They?


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

M.P. Jones said:


> I can imagine some poor fantasy writers, thinking they have the next best seller on their hands, reading this thread and looking at their manuscript and thinking:
> 
> - unpronounceable names -check
> - blacksmith turned king - check
> ...


Sadly that's true, but there's still hordes of readers out there who actually want the cliches and formula tales.

I used to work at a Borders and would often speak to fantasy customers in the sci fi/fantasy section and would constantly be amazed at the different kinds of readers who'd come in wanting such diverse stories. Most of them wanted books to kill the time, I think for most of them on the bus or train (or in booming Perth, for up north on a minesite where they'd be stuck on a fly-in fly-out roster for two weeks).

If they'd been reading pulp like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance and wanted more action I'd put them onto Brent Weeks (His Shadows Trilogy).

If they were getting tired of stock fantasy and wanted something a bit different or with more depth, I'd put them onto Patrick Rothfuss' Name of the Wind.

If they were instead looking for something to tie them over while waiting for George R R Martin, I'd send them onto Joe Abercrombie or Steven Erikson.

But in all that, the most numerous kind of reader was the one who just wanted to read an enetertaining story that usually held all the things we've mentioned above. That's why those tales keep coming out. Simply, they sell.

I think that's where a lot of fantasy readers start, but as you delve into the genre your taste becomes more refined as you sample so many different things.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

theMillersTale said:


> I'm late to the thread and this has pretty much already been said, but I hate those really bad, poorly imagined, awkwardly spelled fantasy names. Especially when three of the principal characters have the same first initial.
> 
> When the big three are named Agnall, Agrendial, and Ageswyll, I find myself throwing the book away after the first few pages out of sheer confusion/frustration. You shouldn't make your reader work that hard in a fantasy book. Has anyone else mentally read a made-up name as "capital A" for the rest of the book after finding yourself unable to pronounce it reliably after the first few times it appears? If you're a writer and you're making up a name, that's fine, but at least try to spell it in such a way that your reader can make a decent attempt at pronouncing it.


That one I don't mind so much at all - as going out of the way to avoid it doesn't reflect the way names work in reality. Even more so is having to have every single name different. Yes, I know that it is done to avoid confusion for readers, but we have to put up with all the time in real life. Back in primary school, one of my grades had six of us all called Andrew. And if you look at royalty in particular they reuse names a lot, which is a throw back to when there weren't as many names to choose from.


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## Ergodic Mage (Jan 23, 2012)

Colin Taber said:


> Sadly that's true, but there's still hordes of readers out there who actually want the cliches and formula tales.
> 
> I used to work at a Borders and would often speak to fantasy customers in the sci fi/fantasy section and would constantly be amazed at the different kinds of readers who'd come in wanting such diverse stories. Most of them wanted books to kill the time, I think for most of them on the bus or train (or in booming Perth, for up north on a minesite where they'd be stuck on a fly-in fly-out roster for two weeks).
> 
> ...


Very insightful explanation!


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

Slightly off topic since it isn't a book, but I just saw the dvd Priest yesterday. Now there are some proper vampires! Nasty, bat like, eyeless, big fanged and leathery. Not a chance some teenage girl is going to wonder if he likes her!!! About bloody time.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm pretty sick of fairy tale reboots.


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