# Kindle Unlimited: the scoop threads merged... :)



## MJWare

Looks like Amazon just started (at least I've never seen it before) Kindle Unlimited: $9.99 for unlimited access to Prime books?

Anyone know how we are going to get paid for these books? Is it just like another borrow? I can't imagine it would be, or they'd loose money on the deal?

(My Select title seem to be auto-enrolled)

UPDATE: The original link has been removed, so here's a cached copy (thanks to Julie):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6jL66Zad7zIJ:www.amazon.com/gp/kindle/ku/sign-up/ui/rw/about+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

UPDATE 2: Here's a link to the KindleUnlimited Youtube ad (thanks to Karen McQuestion):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnVNbYdo2FU

UPDATE 3: It looks like the service is really live now:
https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b/ref=ARRAY(0xa6e16ea0)?_encoding=UTF8&ie=UTF8&node=9578129011&pfShowFeatures=&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb&tag=viglink20273-20


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

Do you have a link or something? This is a game changer if it's real. All I can find is Kindle Freetime unlimited, which is for kid's books.


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## Elizabeth Ann West

Look like someone doesn't like Scribd


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## MJWare

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> Do you have a link or something? This is a game changer if it's real. All I can find is Kindle Freetime unlimited, which is for kid's books.


Yeah, that might be helpful!
https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b/ref=ARRAY(0xa49855e?_encoding=UTF8&ie=UTF8&node=9578129011&pfShowFeatures=&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb

Looks like it includes some audiobooks too.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

OMG. The people at scribd and oyster just got reamed. It was always going to happen once the all you can read services got going, but I thought Amazon would just buy them out.

d*mn. I wonder if it's open to indies, and what the royalties are.

Can someone with books in prime see if their books are available through unlimited. Us non-US folk can't use it yet.


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## DTW

Brilliant.

Also, the ADSers are going to lose their rectal matter over this.  Should be extremely amusing.

+1, big fan, would like again.


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## MJWare

It looks like the only book I have that's included in the program is my title In KDP Select.

Honestly, if it pays the same rate, I'll put a couple more books into Select.

There's _only_ 600,000 titles available now, but it's not only indies.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

Scribd and Oyster are tiny by comparison and I've gotten good numbers from them. Amazon Unlimited has the potential to be HUGE.

All the book nuts will take out a membership and _gorge_ till their brains pop, which makes Select pretty much a necessity for those wanting to turn a dollar.

Wow. Just wow.


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## Zelah Meyer

Currently, Scribd pay full purchase price for a read.  Amazon don't pay full purchase price for a borrow.  I'm surprised that they have auto-enrolled people without telling them the terms for this, unless they're planning to pay the same as they do for a borrow.  Though, how they figure that out if the way of calculating the pot split has changed, I don't know.

I'm up for multiple outlets, so if it were open to non-select authors then I'd sign up.  But since, to be honest, I can't think of subscription services without thinking of musicians being paid cents (or fractions of cents) per play, subscription makes me a little bit twitchy.  So, I'm definitely not going to go exclusive for it!*

I'll be watching this with interest though to see what it does to the market.

*To be honest, I would avoid exclusive like the plague anyway.  To give one company 100% of your business is to give them 100% control over what they decide to pay you!


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## Frank Tayell

.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Changes in 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Frank Zubek

a few questions...
Is this going to replace Prime?

Or be an additional service? ( I doubt a portion of even the most active readers will want to spring for an additional 9.99-- Netflix got stung a few years ago when they split up the DVD home delivery and the streaming services. Of course, they have since then recovered from that but it was ugly for a bit)

A number of readers still enjoy getting a portion of their books for free and throwing them on their To-Be-Read pile ( a number of them never get around to reading everything ON that pile but they enjoy the fact they were able to get a huge pile of freebies. I doubt they'd spring for 9.99 a month_)

I wonder if was born, developed and approved from the Hachette event?


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## Colin

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Look like someone doesn't like Scribd


I was thinking the same.


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## Scragga

Amazon will need content to make this work, so they'll need to match scribd, at least in the begining. How it changes from there, only time will tell. 

One problem I can see is that the pool of cash for select may need to be spread further, which will reduce the $/borrow people get at the moment.

I would say that this means Scribd and oyster were more successful than expected and forced Amazon's hand.


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## MitchHogan

So peoples books have been auto enrolled and they've no idea what the terms are or how they'll be reimbursed? I'm surprised they have not communicate to authors how this will work.


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## Colin

> So peoples books have been auto enrolled and they've no idea what the terms are or how they'll be reimbursed? I'm surprised they have not communicate to authors how this will work.


Exactly.

It would have be nice if they'ed given authors and e-publishers a bit of a warning. I'm going to be extra busy updating guides and I expect a minor deluge of emails from my 100+ authors asking what does _Kindle Unlimited_ mean. It doesn't look very professional to have tell them that I have no idea.. not until Amazon give the heads-up. 

Oh well....


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## Colin

Just checked on several browsers and the "Kindle Unlimited" link is no longer showing. Maybe they're doing a bit of live testing and they will announce/explain their plans.


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## ricola

This is going to be bad.  I hope it fails.


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## Lady Vine

I can't see them paying borrow royalties on these books, so that's even less money going to the author on books over $2.99. 

Well, it's not my problem. As long as they keep this exclusive to Select, they can knock themselves out.


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## Ann in Arlington

MitchHogan said:


> So peoples books have been auto enrolled and they've no idea what the terms are or how they'll be reimbursed? I'm surprised they have not communicate to authors how this will work.


My guess is that part of your publishing agreement addresses their legal permission to include your books in such a program. If I was an author, I'd go read that right now and if I don't want to be part of this program, I'd find out if there was a way to opt out.

I know a LOT of readers who are going to really really like this! FWIW, though, I'm not seeing much of anything on the page linked. So it's not a full-fledged program offered to all customers _yet_.

My guess is it's an expansion of the Kindle Owners Lending Library and that Prime members will get it for a lower monthly subscription price than non-prime folks.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

It looks like they've pulled the page, but now we know it's coming. Wow. Times, they certainly are a changin', and fast.


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## Quiss

Ann in Arlington said:


> My guess is that part of your publishing agreement addresses their legal permission to include your books in such a program. If I was an author, I'd go read that right now and if I don't want to be part of this program, I'd find out if there was a way to opt out.


This. If this is an extension of what we signed up with in terms of KOLL, Amazon doesn't have to check with us about anything. 
In that case, these unlimited borrows will just share the KOLL monthly pot of cash. So if this program takes off in a big way, each share of that will shrink accordingly. Welcome to the 15-cent royalty.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

But then people will simply not put their books into KULL and the scheme will collapse. They will need to at least offer 35% until Scribd and Oyster die. And if Apple or Google sees a gap, they could start up their own.

I wonder what the big 5 publishers think of this. It must look like madness from their point of view.


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## Frank Zubek

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> I wonder what the big 5 publishers think of this. It must look like madness from their point of view.


I think the old guard at the paper boy club in New York are scared. And of course that gets passed down to the many authors who have contracts with them.
Fear, unfortunately, has a way of stalling the inevitable. History itself proves that.


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## sarahdalton

VMた said:


> This is going to be bad. I hope it fails.


Me too. I hope they all fail to be honest, even though I have my books opted in to ScribD and Oyster. The thought of books being turned into Spotify... those tiny royalties... it scares me.

Time to get that mailing list built up!


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## Quiss




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## jackz4000

Big pubs wouldn't touch it with a pole and since we have no details yet? I don't like the sound of it though. Spotify= here is your 12 cent royalty. Ugg.


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## AnthonyJMelchiorri

I know there's already been some talk of this, but this affects my decision of whether or not to go into Select. Previously, I was all about spreading my works out to various vendors to ensure I didn't have all my eggs in one basket. Now, I'm wondering how popular a program like this will be at Amazon. If it sucks the life out of normal sales because most Prime users are utilizing the unlimited borrows program and more people that aren't in Prime join it to take advantage of the program, it might be time to reconsider joining Select.


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## penrefe

Quiss said:


>


It's funny, as I was reading this thread, my mind went here:









What have I walked into?!


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## Zelah Meyer

I wonder if this is one of the stumbling blocks in the Hachette negotiations?  I would think that Amazon would want the big publishers' books listed in something like this.  

Edited to add:  At the very least, they might want a clause about being allowed to offer the books via the program if the publisher offers books via similar programs (Scribd, etc.) elsewhere.


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## Paul K

Huh... interesting. If it's stupidly popular and pays well...


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## Guest

This is the cached page from Google: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6jL66Zad7zIJ:www.amazon.com/gp/kindle/ku/sign-up/ui/rw/about+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


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## ricola

It's even worse for audiobook people.

Of course it won't pay well.  That's sort of the point.


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## Guest

VMた said:


> It's even worse for audiobook people.
> 
> Of course it won't pay well. That's sort of the point.


Considering that ACX already reduced the royalties and has 100% control over the sale price, you can darn well bet audiobook people are going to get 100% screwed on this. They already discount audiobooks to oblivion.


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## sarahdalton

Quiss said:


>


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## ChelseaAuthorPromotions

Okay when I first read this board I was like hmm..probably wouldn't use this service (as a prime member/reader) I don't even use my own borrow one free book a month. Probably because I can never find it on my PC and my Fire is the 1st generation and its a hassle to find it 

However, from that cached link above

Enjoy unlimited access to over 600,000 titles and thousands of audiobooks on any device for just $9.99 a month. 

I would totally sign up for the audiobooks. I get super busy and have less time to read than I used to....I normally pick my author favorites that I've read on audio book (in case I get distracted while listening, I'm not completely lost).  But yeah, I'd totally sign up as long as they had a decent mix of audio books.... So as a reader I'm screaming YAY! But, as a writer with several works planned I'm cringing with the rest of you.


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## Wansit

I would be in just for the audiobooks...started listening to my own at the gym. Hooked. As an author - I want to see what this can do for the audio market.








(img via Dear Author)


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## Dalia Daudelin

I'm hoping and praying this is another loss leader and Amazon will pay us full price... or let us opt out.


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## Colin

This is one of those speculative threads where we're all trying to second guess what the royalty deal will be with Kindle Unlimited. Online speculation or 'e-speculation' is understandable when we're being kept in the dark, but when it becomes premature e-speculation, this could be problematic.


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## Jash

Colin said:


> This is one of those speculative threads where we're all trying to second guess what the royalty deal will be with Kindle Unlimited. Online speculation or 'e-speculation' is understandable when we're being kept in the dark, but when it becomes premature e-speculation, this could be problematic.


It was (briefly) in the Select FAQs this morning. So it's only kind of speculation. From memory:

Books in Select will automatically be enrolled. Like the KOLL you won't be able to opt-out if you're in Select. 
You will be payed if you someone reads 10% or more of your book.
The payment will come out of the same KOLL fund, just as if it was a borrow.

There was no mention if they would be increasing the fund or not.


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## Jan Strnad

If you look at the books offered (thanks to Julie's link) you'll see the pages labelled "KU Test."

This looks to me like a mock-up of a potential service, meaning that:

[list type=decimal]
[*]The books are not signed up
[*]The price is not firm
[*]No one is able to join
[*]It may not happen
[*]They're seriously thinking about it.
[/list]

This idea can't come as a surprise to anyone! We know that streaming is the Next Big Thing. The KOLL was a toe in the water. There are lots of writers who would gladly take that few cents per book if it means exposure. The only question is, "When will it happen?"


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## geekgrrl

http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/07/16/amazon-launch-new-ebook-subscription-service-called-kindle-unlimited/#.U8aKKY1dXgZ


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## Wansit

Jan Strnad said:


> It may not happen
> They're seriously thinking about it.


I'm not so sure if it's a question of IF. It was live this morning and it looks like they already have rights to Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.

I guess it would be easier if people could SEE what is right?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6jL66Zad7zIJ:www.amazon.com/gp/kindle/ku/sign-up/ui/rw/about+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


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## Redacted1111

If they pay a decent royalty, this could be awesome. It would mean an end to complaints about serials because they'd pay their $9.99 fee and would be able to read all they want. I'm also lazy, so it could give me a reason to not have to put my books in other venues. To make it work, they'd have to make it work for us. They do need content. It's most likely that they would increase the fund.


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## Colin

Jash said:


> It was (briefly) in the Select FAQs this morning. So it's only kind of speculation. From memory:
> 
> Books in Select will automatically be enrolled. Like the KOLL you won't be able to opt-out if you're in Select.
> You will be payed if you someone reads 10% or more of your book.
> The payment will come out of the same KOLL fund, just as if it was a borrow.
> 
> There was no mention if they would be increasing the fund or not.


If they don't increase the KOLL fund, they won't be able to stop Scribd - a sleeping giant that I'm e-speculating will be a big threat to Amazon.

Edited to order minor word disorder.


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## Jash

Wansit said:


>


And I thought I had a big monitor!


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## AnthonyJMelchiorri

Jash said:


> It was (briefly) in the Select FAQs this morning. So it's only kind of speculation. From memory:
> 
> Books in Select will automatically be enrolled. Like the KOLL you won't be able to opt-out if you're in Select.
> You will be payed if you someone reads 10% or more of your book.
> The payment will come out of the same KOLL fund, just as if it was a borrow.
> 
> There was no mention if they would be increasing the fund or not.


If your memory is correct, it would be great if that also meant that, though you couldn't opt-out if you're in Select, you could opt-in if you aren't in Select. Crossing my fingers that that is the case.


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## Atunah

I am a very happy Scribd subscriber. I looked at the cached links Julie posted and to be honest, it isn't in any way a danger to Scribd if that is what will be in KU. Content is king and no offence, I wouldn't pay $9.99 a month for pretty much only self published titles and then the amazon imprints. That's is what is in the KOLL right now. I am working my way through the Amazon Montlake titles each month with my Prime. 

On Scribd I get HarperCollins, Kensington, Simon and Schuster, Sourcebooks, Open Road Media, Diversion Books, DreamSpinner, etc. In addition to many self published titles through Smashwords and D2D. 

I browsed through the selection on that link and I could barely find stuff I either didn't already own free, or already have read through my KOLL. I would have to read 4-6 book a month on the service to make it a good deal. I have no lack of selection on Scribd. 

But I'll keep my eye open and if they can get some big publishers it would be a competition. But considering how the relationship between Amazon and some publishers is, that is highly unlikely. 

But overall I have seen a huge interest of readers in these services.


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## Mark E. Cooper

As for opting in or out, that is taken care of. In Select or out of Select. But what of audio? I am exclusive with ACX which means I'm screwed... maybe    Because Amazon can do what they like with price for 7 years. Just as with Whisper Sync, they "could" add my audio to this and maybe pay me $2 a borrow or a lot less?? instead of $7.04 as now. All speculation of course, but my graph briefly showed the blue KOLL line labeled as KOLL/KU so I don'tthink its much of a stretch to believe the borrow pot will be shared with KU. Maybe Amazon will double the size of it to cover the rush. Who knows?


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## Mark E. Cooper

Atunah said:


> I am a very happy Scribd subscriber. I looked at the cached links Julie posted and to be honest, it isn't in any way a danger to Scribd if that is what will be in KU. Content is king and no offence, I wouldn't pay $9.99 a month for pretty much only self published


Wouldn't unlimited audio books tept you?


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## Justawriter

Atunah said:


> I am a very happy Scribd subscriber. I looked at the cached links Julie posted and to be honest, it isn't in any way a danger to Scribd if that is what will be in KU. Content is king and no offence, I wouldn't pay $9.99 a month for pretty much only self published titles and then the amazon imprints. That's is what is in the KOLL right now. I am working my way through the Amazon Montlake titles each month with my Prime.
> 
> On Scribd I get HarperCollins, Kensington, Simon and Schuster, Sourcebooks, Open Road Media, Diversion Books, DreamSpinner, etc. In addition to many self published titles through Smashwords and D2D.
> 
> I browsed through the selection on that link and I could barely find stuff I either didn't already own free, or already have read through my KOLL. I would have to read 4-6 book a month on the service to make it a good deal. I have no lack of selection on Scribd.
> 
> But I'll keep my eye open and if they can get some big publishers it would be a competition. But considering how the relationship between Amazon and some publishers is, that is highly unlikely.
> 
> But overall I have seen a huge interest of readers in these services.


Atunah,

As a reader and user of Scribd, do you find that you are now spending less money actually buying ebooks? Or are you just reading more? I'm curious how services like scribed will affect buying habits.


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## Atunah

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Wouldn't unlimited audio books tept you?


I am not a audiobook user much, just a handful so far and the same thing applies there, content. I browsed through but didn't really see much in the genres I read. Its a small selection of the KU selection basically.

I am not trying to denigrate self publishers or anything, but if they want to get a lot of reader to sign up, they need the big names. How many times to people complain about Netflix when they don't have a lot of new big studio movies on the service. $10 a month is a nice chunk to ask for and people want some selection for that. And if I can get that from other services, Scribd and maybe Oyster than they will go there. Only advantage I can see is being able to use an e-ink device to read the titles.


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## Colin

Speed readers will do well out of Scribd. Scribd will make their profits from those who don't read so fast. Or adjust the subscription/reduce the royalty if they get too many wild word munchers!


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## Wansit

Looks like everything already in Whispersync automatically goes to Unlimited


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## 68564

As reader - I would be tempted by this. I pay Netflix for the same kind of service already. 

If this is Select only, than I am locked out at this stage in my career. I really hope it is not select only.


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## Mark E. Cooper

Wansit said:


> Looks like everything already in Whispersync automatically goes to Unlimited


If WS is how they get audio into KU then I'm OK as i fixed mine already, but we will have to see.


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## Redacted1111

I like the idea, personally. If they come close to the sales royalty rate and increase the fund, I'd be very tempted to put my newest titles in there. Let's face it, it's Amazon. Most people are buying there already. Purchases upload directly to their Kindles. We have no idea what books they will be able to get into the program. And many speed readers read a lot of self published titles already. I'd like to try it if the terms are right.


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## Usedtoposthere

Guess now we know why all those big-name indies' books are suddenly available to borrow via Prime. (Remember that flap, couple weeks ago?) Sounds to me like they're rolling out this program, and that we'll be hearing something very soon. Probably no coincidence that it coincides with the release of the new Kindle Fire phone, too. Amazon is clearly trying another big move.

All my books are currently in Select, so I'll just wait for the announcement and see what the terms are, give it a month or so to see what happens, and then decide what to do. The soonest I could switch to wide distribution is end of August anyway. Plenty of time to see the early results and judge for myself, since I can't imagine the announcement/full roll-out of the program is far away. 

I've had people borrow a book and then go back to buy it, by the way. Or, of course, borrow one at a time, or borrow one and buy the rest. Borrowing is like permafree--lets somebody try you out. But unlike permafree, people can use it on any book (that's in Select). If you have series books that can stand alone, that can be a very useful feature. My borrows are pretty spread out amongst my books. 

I've been getting borrows at about 15% of total units sold for quite a while now. I'll be interested to see if the new program is in addition to that, replaces that (if the KOLL will go away entirely now), if it's revenue-neutral for me or revenue-enhancing. Easy enough to see, with the sales/borrows data we have in the reports.

My totally uneducated guess is that the KOLL won't go away, that this will be an additional deal that people can add on. Amazon clearly wants to grow the audiobook market, too, and that makes a lot of sense as a subscription service. How many books do you listen to over and over? And yet an Audible subscription is expensive. I know I only have a handful I listen to multiple times.


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## Atunah

PamelaKelley said:


> Atunah,
> 
> As a reader and user of Scribd, do you find that you are now spending less money actually buying ebooks? Or are you just reading more? I'm curious how services like scribed will affect buying habits.


I actually dropped one of my out of state paid library card in favor of Scribd. Its more of a shifting of reading. Plus Scribd got Simon and Schuster titles that the libraries never had so I was ecstatic when they got them on board.

So its more the library loans that got shifted to Scribd and I finally get to read some titles I have put on hold because of price, namely S&S titles. I curbed some of my buying this year, but not because of Scribd, more to catch up with what I already own. 

And just so it doesn't seem like I won't read any SP titles, I now have access to titles that are in the KOLL on Amazon and I have read some that are on Scribd because they aren't in the KOLL program. Like Kristen Ashley titles for example.

I look at who would use such a service. Would be voracious readers I guess. Scribd has done one thing totally right, the are going straight for voracious readers especially romance readers. Its a romance reader heaven really. 

I still buy books, although a bit less. But not because of Scribd like I said. So for me, its just a shifting away from one thing and towards another. If I find an author or books I like on any place, be it KOLL, library or Scribd and I want the newest of that author, I still buy it.


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## JuliMonroe

PamelaKelley said:


> Atunah,
> 
> As a reader and user of Scribd, do you find that you are now spending less money actually buying ebooks? Or are you just reading more? I'm curious how services like scribed will affect buying habits.


I'm not Atunah (obviously), but I am a user of Scribd, and yes, the amount of money I spend on ebooks is less. One interesting "side effect" is that I'm now more publisher conscious. When I see a book I'm interested in, I now check the publisher. If it's HC, S&S, Kensington or Open Road, I immediately go check Scribd to see if it's available. If it is, I add it to my reading list and don't buy it. I also don't check out books from the library from those publishers either. Since HC distributes expiring books to libraries, my fellow patrons probably appreciate that. 

There's enough in Scribd to keep me reading the rest of my life. The only reason I don't go all-in with them is because I can't read their books on my Kindle Paperwhite. If I could, my book buying would go down to only those few "must-read" authors who are with other publishers.

Mind you, if I did go all-in with them, I might single-handedly put them out of business. I'm also a journalist, and I've interviewed/talked to the folks from Scribd several times. In the last phone conversation, they asked how many books I had read in Scribd this year. When I told them, there was a VERY long pause. I swear I could hear "bad trombone" in the background.

Edited to clarify that I can't read Scribd books on a Paperwhite.


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## Guest

I find it funny that when Smashwords auto opts in people for a new distribution channel, there was a mass freak out, despite the fact that you could go unclick the box and opt out of any channel at any time. Amazon auto opts in people, and offers no way to opt out, and there is barely a blink. 

But yeah, I'm pretty sure audiobook people are going to get screwed, unless they are going to add audiobook people to KOLL, which I don't forsee happening due to the way the ACX deals are structured. 

In fact, this would sort of be shooting Audible in the face, isn't it? Audible is $14.95 a month and you only get ONE free audiobook. This is $9.99 and you get unlimited content? Most customers aren't going to make a differentiation between "owning" the audiobook through Audible and "borrowing" it through Unlimited, since in general people don't listen to audiobooks over and over and over.


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## Guest

JuliMonroe said:


> There's enough in Scribd to keep me reading the rest of my life. The only reason I don't go all-in with them is because I can't read their books on my Kindle.


Scribd has a Kindle app.


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## Jim Johnson

KOLL is a 'free' service that comes with a Prime membership, right? I wonder if KU would be an additional $9.99 a month as part of Prime, or if Prime/KOLL and KU are separate services.

As an Amazon customer, I haven't gone with Prime yet, so I don't have access to the KOLL. If I could get KU without Prime, I'd be all over it, IF the terms are favorable to authors.

One KOLL borrow a month is too limited for my rate of reading, but $9.99 a month for unlimited reading is great, especially if I'm able to share that subscription with my fiancee (presumably using the same device?).


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## Avis Black

I tried KOLL to get borrows for my MM Romance titles, and discovered that demographic of reader does not join Prime.  MM Romance is more the 'broke student' demographic, and they simply don't buy the tons of stuff from Amazon that would make free shipping attractive.  But 'broke student' happens to be Scribd's natural demographic.  What's more, if Amazon keeps the royalty at 2 dollars, it's not worth my while to join the new service.  Scribd and Oyster both pay a lot more.

I think Russell Blake complained a while back he finally concluded that KOLL cannibalized his regular sales, and he got tired of the lower pay from readers who would have just bought the book outright and paid him a better rate.


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## Jash

Atunah said:


> I actually dropped one of my out of state paid library card in favor of Scribd. Its more of a shifting of reading. Plus Scribd got Simon and Schuster titles that the libraries never had so I was ecstatic when they got them on board.


Simon and Schuster, also known as the company that the trades are reporting that Amazon is in negotiations with at the moment. Gee, I wonder what they're about  From a purely financial standpoint Amazon can obviously match Scribd (and Oyster) in terms of what they're willing to pay to get people on board. This would obviously be a big score for them. I think the main thing this service would have going for it above and beyod Scribd is that they'll be able to integrate it into Kindle interface which will give them exposure to a hell of a lot of readers that have never heard of Scribd.


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## Jash

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I find it funny that when Smashwords auto opts in people for a new distribution channel, there was a mass freak out, despite the fact that you could go unclick the box and opt out of any channel at any time. Amazon auto opts in people, and offers no way to opt out, and there is barely a blink.


This might have something to do with the fact that the news is literally hours old, nothing has been confirmed yet.


----------



## JuliMonroe

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Scribd has a Kindle app.


Sorry, I should have specified. I can't read Scribd books on my Kindle Paperwhite.


----------



## ChelseaAuthorPromotions

JuliMonroe said:


> Sorry, I should have specified. I can't read Scribd books on my Kindle Paperwhite.


Yeah I was just reading on their site...If you have a Kindle Fire you are good but regular e-ink readers are a no go...which is too bad...when I'm being voracious with my reading I prefer my regular Kindle 3rd generation over the computer like screen of my Kindle Fire.


Rosalind James said:


> My totally uneducated guess is that the KOLL won't go away, that this will be an additional deal that people can add on. Amazon clearly wants to grow the audiobook market, too, and that makes a lot of sense as a subscription service. How many books do you listen to over and over? And yet an Audible subscription is expensive. I know I only have a handful I listen to multiple times.


I agree with this. I have tons of audible books but there are only about 4-6 authors books that I currently listen to over and over. I'd certainly appreciate being able to opt in or out and listen to unlimited. I have netflix too but honestly neither my kid nor I have watched anything on there in months but I still keep my subscription because somehow my disabled neighbor has access to it and I don't want him to lose out. I had to cancel my audible because 2 audio books for $22.95 a month just isn't affordable to me and since audio books are my poison lately its not worth it. I just re-listen to the ones I own/love for now.



Jim Johnson said:


> KOLL is a 'free' service that comes with a Prime membership, right? I wonder if KU would be an additional $9.99 a month as part of Prime, or if Prime/KOLL and KU are separate services.
> 
> As an Amazon customer, I haven't gone with Prime yet, so I don't have access to the KOLL. If I could get KU without Prime, I'd be all over it, IF the terms are favorable to authors.
> 
> One KOLL borrow a month is too limited for my rate of reading, but $9.99 a month for unlimited reading is great, especially if I'm able to share that subscription with my fiancee (presumably using the same device?).


Not sure, I'm on a Student Prime but if you tell me where to go I can take a peek. I know that my mom recently signed up for Prime and she's paying full price but she's able to do 5 memberships for the Free Shipping, though I have no clue if that covers Amazon's new music feature, Kindle Library etc. I asked but she didn't know. I did notice on my own discounted student membership that I didn't have the option to "add" anyone. I wouldn't mind canceling mine and signing up with hers if I could get the music/movies still. Though the movies is unfortunate as Amazon Prime on my television I can't filter out "free" only and its difficult to find only free movies/shows unlike Netflix where everything is free.


Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I find it funny that when Smashwords auto opts in people for a new distribution channel, there was a mass freak out, despite the fact that you could go unclick the box and opt out of any channel at any time. Amazon auto opts in people, and offers no way to opt out, and there is barely a blink.
> 
> But yeah, I'm pretty sure audiobook people are going to get screwed, unless they are going to add audiobook people to KOLL, which I don't forsee happening due to the way the ACX deals are structured.
> 
> In fact, this would sort of be shooting Audible in the face, isn't it? Audible is $14.95 a month and you only get ONE free audiobook. This is $9.99 and you get unlimited content? Most customers aren't going to make a differentiation between "owning" the audiobook through Audible and "borrowing" it through Unlimited, since in general people don't listen to audiobooks over and over and over.


Not sure it would be shooting Audible in the Face since I'm pretty sure Amazon bought out Audible (notice you can sign into your audible account with your amazon information?) I thought Goodreads might have been bought out by Amazon too...Not 100% sure but over the last few years I've been thinking WOAH Monopoly... The problem with that though is then you are on Amazon's terms for all their sites and there's no strong competition to take them down. Like Kalypso said most folks are getting their books through Amazon. (Goodreads, Audible, Amazon, Amazon Publishing, Amazon Fire phone, Ereading Devices etc).


----------



## Hugh Howey

Jash said:


> It was (briefly) in the Select FAQs this morning. So it's only kind of speculation. From memory:
> 
> Books in Select will automatically be enrolled. Like the KOLL you won't be able to opt-out if you're in Select.
> You will be payed if you someone reads 10% or more of your book.
> The payment will come out of the same KOLL fund, just as if it was a borrow.
> 
> There was no mention if they would be increasing the fund or not.


I would think the fund would be increased by the subscriber funds. I worry about the "borrow" payout going down to something closer to $1.00. That would be bad.

I'm nervous about all subscription models after keeping a close eye on the music industry.


----------



## Jan Strnad

My first take on the news, subject to change by the end of the day:

http://onelasttime.org/spotify-books-coming-amazon/


----------



## Mandy

I wonder if KU would be truly unlimited, as in all the Kindles under my account being able to borrow their own ebooks?


----------



## Jash

Hugh Howey said:


> I would think the fund would be increased by the subscriber funds. I worry about the "borrow" payout going down to something closer to $1.00. That would be bad.
> 
> I'm nervous about all subscription models after keeping a close eye on the music industry.


I'm a little nervous about subscription models too. Especially given an infrastructure where it can be a one-click(r) thing offered at the checkout to someone about to buy a book.

The music industry/Spotify stuff is a whole can of worms in itself. Although, a lot of the criticism of it comes from a single article and subsequent infographic that were way off the mark, forcing Spotify to respond with more detail about how payments actually work. A lot of it also comes down to the deals the artists have with their labels. Although the silver lining with Spotify is the pool they pay from is directly linked to number of subscribers... which fits with your statement here. So probably nothing you didn't already know.


----------



## JuliMonroe

Hugh Howey said:


> I would think the fund would be increased by the subscriber funds. I worry about the "borrow" payout going down to something closer to $1.00. That would be bad.
> 
> I'm nervous about all subscription models after keeping a close eye on the music industry.


You know what's funny, Hugh. It doesn't matter which side of the Indie/Trad pub debate you're on. Everyone (on all sides) is suspicious of subscription models. Either for the reason you mentioned or because of concerns of long-term viability. I include myself in that, and I love Scribd as a reader. I know they are losing money on readers like me. However, it does seem that it's an almost inevitable wave which could, potentially, do more to "devalue the book" than indie pricing ever did. I hope it won't, but I'm watching the developments carefully.

Has anyone done a study pointing to the effect Netflix has had on the DVD industry? I think it's a more accurate model than music. I can listen to a song multiple times in a day, but I'll probably only watch a particular movie or read a particular book once.


----------



## Guest

Jash said:


> This might have something to do with the fact that the news is literally hours old, nothing has been confirmed yet.


Since when has lack of confirmation ever prevented a freak out on the internet?


----------



## Quiss

Jan Strnad said:


> This idea can't come as a surprise to anyone! We know that streaming is the Next Big Thing. The KOLL was a toe in the water. There are lots of writers who would gladly take that few cents per book if it means exposure.


Well, that's dandy. So self-publishing returns to the days of vanity publishing?
There are a huge number of authors who pay bills with their work. Like Hugh says, what'll happen when the KOLL share drops to a buck or even less?
The readers certainly won't care.

I suppose we should be a little less smug about all those trade publishers getting shafted by the Big 5. We're about to get our turn, methinks.


----------



## ABBradley

I think a reading requirement might allay a lot of fears about royalties being reduced to a slap in the face. How many people read more than 10% of a freebie? Do freebie users actually read more than 10% of each book they download in a month, or do authors tend to use freebie users who don't often finish books to juice their ranks?

I'm betting Amazon has extensive data on all of this. Hopefully, they'll have some sort of rollout explaining it to authors before it actually goes permanently live. Depending on what they say, I might actually be interested in opting into the program.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Oh goodie. The rich, heady poison of Select rolled into the smooth, great tasting neurotoxin of subscription services.

Most of the words I have for this would be censored by the forum software.

Subscription/stream-on-demand services are bad for everyone even if the consumers don't notice it at first. Basically, it's a scheme to make sure you never own any piece of entertainment and keep paying for it over and over again forever. And also so they can pay the content creators less and less for it. Also forever.

I keep hoping that content purchasers will eventually take notice of this and revolt because the way things are structured, the creators don't have that much of a choice.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Since when has lack of confirmation ever prevented a freak out on the internet?


Hah! Its more likely due to the fact authors have no choice but to take this... at least until their 90 days are up. Its not exactly something most can urgently do anything about. The SW thing allowed them to take some sort of action.

Besides, these things usually cause a groundswell of angst that eventually subsides and we all make a few changes in our businesses and move on to the next thing. The audio book problem "may" only effect whisper sync titles. It may not as well of course, but if it does that is something fixable.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Oh and in case anyone was wondering where the reporting slowdowns of the past two weeks were coming from... TADA!


----------



## wtvr

I have 4 books under 3 pen names in Select. Only one of those books shows up under KU (using the search function).
No idea what that means. If it means anything.

I'll keep my doubts to myself at the moment, but it seems like this might be a terrible thing for established indies, and a FABULOUS thing for those struggling to get a foothold. New market - first mover advantage! WOO!


----------



## Quiss

Vaalingrade said:


> I keep hoping that content purchasers will eventually take notice of this and revolt because the way things are structured, the creators don't have that much of a choice.


Not so sure about that. There's a whole new generation of content users that view content as disposable. The cozy idea of vast shelves of much-loved books doesn't even enter into their minds. Didn't take long for gamers to make the switch. 
Libraries would be more popular if you didn't have to actually walk/bike/drive there. Well, now you don't.


----------



## Jash

Quiss said:


> There are a huge number of authors who pay bills with their work. Like Hugh says, what'll happen when the KOLL share drops to a buck or even less?


_If_ not _When_. But what percentage of your income comes from KOLL shares? For me such a drop wouldn't have much of an impact.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Quiss said:


> Not so sure about that. There's a whole new generation of content users that view content as disposable. The cozy idea of vast shelves of much-loved books doesn't even enter into their minds. Didn't take long for gamers to make the switch.
> Libraries would be more popular if you didn't have to actually walk/bike/drive there. Well, now you don't.


See, games I get. You rarely replay a game.

And it isn't about ownership (it is for me, but not for them) so much as being suckered into paying for the same thing over and over again. I had a rule back in the day of rental stores: if I was going to rent a movie three times for a totally of $6, I'd just pay the $10 and buy the damn thing because otherwise, I was being a chump.


----------



## Quiss

Jash said:


> _If_ not _When_. But what percentage of your income comes from KOLL shares? For me such a drop wouldn't have much of an impact.


It would if readers quit buying books and start renting them in unlimited quantities.


----------



## wtvr

Jash said:


> _If_ not _When_. But what percentage of your income comes from KOLL shares? For me such a drop wouldn't have much of an impact.


I don't see the logic behind this happening any time soon. Zon has to get big names and publishers in there, or it will flop. Big names won't go for 12 cent royalties without a guarantee. At the outset, it will have to be something comparable to what it is now - or possibly even better?

Historically, Zon has been willing to defer profitability in order to acquire market dominance. Why wouldn't they do that here?


----------



## Quiss

Vaalingrade said:


> See, games I get. You rarely replay a game.


Say that to the suckers who keep paying to get another level or two for Candy Crush   

I'll be over there:


----------



## Gone To Croatan

Jash said:


> _If_ not _When_. But what percentage of your income comes from KOLL shares? For me such a drop wouldn't have much of an impact.


It will, if anyone can borrow your books an infinite number of times for $9.99 a month. Clearly this is Amazon's response to Scribd, but Scribd's business model never made sense to me; I don't see how they can pay me $2.99 every time someone reads one of my novelettes, but only charge $8.99 a month.

My guess is, it will flop because no trade publisher will want to put new books in there, though perhaps they'll be happy to release backlist books that way.


----------



## Colin

Edward M. Grant said:


> It will, if anyone can borrow your books an infinite number of times for $9.99 a month. Clearly this is Amazon's response to Scribd, but Scribd's business model never made sense to me; I don't see how they can pay me $2.99 every time someone reads one of my novelettes, but only charge $8.99 a month.


Quoting myself - sorry.


> Scribd will make their profits from those who don't read so fast. Or adjust the subscription/reduce the royalty if they get too many wild word munchers!


----------



## Quiss

Vaalingrade said:


> Oh and in case anyone was wondering where the reporting slowdowns of the past two weeks were coming from... TADA!


Heh, yeah. My dashboard graph, the report generated from that page and the actual Month To Date all have different opinions about what I've sold today.


----------



## Atunah

I have been renting, not owning content since the days of VHS, Beta and Video 2000. Yes, we actually had 3 formats to deal with in those early days. So not owning content is not anything new. We also paid a small fee for library books then. 
I was one of the first to jump on Netflix when it was available so as not to have to drive to the video stores anymore.

I pay out of state libraries to loan digital books. I don't own those either. We had for a while a Sirius subscription, so didn't own that music either. 
None of this is new. Books are entertainment. If I owned every book I have ever read or want to read, I'd need to win the lottery and buy a house. Doesn't mean I never owned VHS tapes, cassette tapes, books, etc. I just don't need to own everything I consume. I buy what I want to rewatch again and again, same with books. 

I don't re-read most fiction books I read. Otherwise I'd never get through my TBR.  

People didn't stop buying DVD's because of Netflix. People didn't stop buying books because of libraries, loaning, paperbackswap etc. People didn't stop buying music because of music services. 

I haven't stopped buying books because of Scribd. If anything, it makes me read authors and books that I had on lists like "wait for loan". Now I pay to read those with my subscription fees.


----------



## wtvr

Edward M. Grant said:


> It will, if anyone can borrow your books an infinite number of times for $9.99 a month. Clearly this is Amazon's response to Scribd, but Scribd's business model never made sense to me; I don't see how they can pay me $2.99 every time someone reads one of my novelettes, but only charge $8.99 a month.
> 
> My guess is, it will flop because no trade publisher will want to put new books in there, though perhaps they'll be happy to release backlist books that way.


The reason Scribd can do that is a) their distribution costs are ridiculously low and b) all subscription models are based on a high rate of "breakage" where people just don't use the service to its optimum level. There really aren't all that many people devouring 2 books a day, for months on end. Breakage for things like product rebates can be upwards of 65%, which is why any company would bother. I wonder what Zon's percentage will be.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Quiss said:


> Say that to the suckers who keep paying to get another level or two for Candy Crush
> 
> I'll be over there:


'Games', I said, not digital meth.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Atunah said:


> People didn't stop buying DVD's because of Netflix. People didn't stop buying books because of libraries, loaning, paperbackswap etc. People didn't stop buying music because of music services.
> 
> I haven't stopped buying books because of Scribd. If anything, it makes me read authors and books that I had on lists like "wait for loan". Now I pay to read those with my subscription fees.


Here's the thing though. In a few years, _you're not going to have a choice_. Subscription services are essentially money for nothing continually while actual ownership is a one time transaction. Businesses have vanishingly little reason to actually let you keep stuff anymore.


----------



## Gone To Croatan

LisaGloria said:


> There really aren't all that many people devouring 2 books a day, for months on end. Breakage for things like product rebates can be upwards of 65%.


We're not talking about 2 books a day. If someone reads one book a week, and Scribd pays me $2.99 each time, they're making a significant loss on that reader.

In the long run, either they'll have to increase fees, or reduce royalties, or go bust.

(Unless I'm mistaken about the royalties, so far I've only seen partial reads, which seem to pay cover price * percentage read).


----------



## Atunah

Vaalingrade said:


> Here's the thing though. In a few years, _you're not going to have a choice_. Subscription services are essentially money for nothing continually while actual ownership is a one time transaction. Businesses have vanishingly little reason to actually let you keep stuff anymore.


Nah, not buying that. No pun intended. .

Businesses want you to do both, rent and own. Just like always. Humans like to own things. I think we are horders at heart. 

And like I said, I don't need to own or want to own every entertainment I consume. I always consume more than I own. That is the advantage of it.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> It looks like they've pulled the page, but now we know it's coming. Wow. Times, they certainly are a changin', and fast.


I can't find it anywhere either


----------



## Guest

Edward M. Grant said:


> (Unless I'm mistaken about the royalties, so far I've only seen partial reads, which seem to pay cover price * percentage read).


You don't get paid cover price. You get paid your normal royalty. So if the royalty is 60%, you would get $1.79 on a $2.99 book. And then only if it is an actual 10% read. And from previous threads, Scribd seems to very strictly enforcing the 10% so no encouraging people to download and just "click" through the pages until you reach 10%. There is some sort of algorithm at work to confirm reads.


----------



## Quiss

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You don't get paid cover price. You get paid your normal royalty. So if the royalty is 60%, you would get $1.79 on a $2.99 book. And then only if it is an actual 10% read. And from previous threads, Scribd seems to very strictly enforcing the 10% so no encouraging people to download and just "click" through the pages until you reach 10%. There is some sort of algorithm at work to confirm reads.


Heh, I can't even convince my readers to leave a review, never mind click through a book they're not going to read.
Can't people just borrow a book and then download it to their computer? Not sure how the borrow-thing works.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

I think it's easy to freak about about changes, but the fact as, as I think Joe Nobody said just yesterday, everything changes so fast in the ebook world. And as I've said myself in the past, the advantage we have as indies is that we can turn on a dime and change along with it. We're sleek little motor launches. The big ships are making their wide, sweeping turns that take them months or years, and--boop!--we've already pulled a 180 and are headed in a new direction! 

I'm just going to wait and see, figure out what my own best move will be given what happens, and make that move. And keep working on the new book! That's all of our best hedge, I think--new content. Which is another thing we can do much faster. Go, us.

/cheerleading


----------



## wtvr

^^ That! yes!


----------



## Gone To Croatan

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You don't get paid cover price. You get paid your normal royalty. So if the royalty is 60%, you would get $1.79 on a $2.99 book.


Mine are coming through Smashwords, so I presume it's using whatever royalty percentage they agreed. I'll have to look at the numbers more closely.

But, even at that rate, if someone reads one book a week and I get $1.79 for each of those, Scribd is making about $1 a month from that reader. One extra book a month and they're making a loss.


----------



## wtvr

Here's an article from late last year that says Scribd has 2% of their subscribers reading more than 10 books a month. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/25/technology/as-new-services-track-habits-the-e-books-are-reading-you.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

They don't say what percentage are reading 0.

Aside: It would be very interesting to know if Zon will introduce percent-read into rankings, suggesting that a fully-read book is better than a 10% read book.


----------



## Douglas E Wright

Here's a story I found. http://gizmodo.com/amazon-is-prepping-a-kindle-unlimited-book-rental-ser-1605911418


----------



## JuliMonroe

Quiss said:


> Heh, I can't even convince my readers to leave a review, never mind click through a book they're not going to read.
> Can't people just borrow a book and then download it to their computer? Not sure how the borrow-thing works.


Nope, they can't download to a computer. You can read in your browser on a computer or download to a tablet/smartphone. However, you can't get it off your tablet. It's hidden in an archive file somewhere. I spent a significant amount of time trying this after I read a scare article about how subscription services will increase piracy because ZOMG! people will download hundreds of subscription books and upload them to pirate sites. Or maybe it was download hundreds of books with their free trial month. Something like that.

Nate at Digital Reader and I spent much of a morning trying to get a book out of Scribd, and we couldn't do it. Not saying it *can't* be done, just that two tech-savvy people couldn't do it. Which we agreed meant that the danger was over-rated.


----------



## Jim Johnson

This was in the Publisher's Lunch newsletter. I just got my email copy:

http://lunch.publishersmarketplace.com/2014/07/amazon-prepares-kindle-unlimited-subscription-offer-probably/



> As we have reported previously on multiple occasions, Amazon has been talking to publishers about an ebook subscription offering for some time now -- and a cached version of a page that was put up recently and then taken down confirms the basic details. "Kindle Unlimited" is the name of the program, which promises "unlimited access to over 600,000 titles and thousands of audiobooks...for just $9.99 a month."
> 
> That cached page prominently promotes big series -- Lord of the Rings; Harry Potter; and The Hunger Games. Amazon already had a big, direct license for Harry Potter for Kindle Owner's Lending Library. The company had previously offered Hunger Games for borrowing through the Kindle Owners Lending Library, though they did so without any specific permission from Scholastic, which was paid full price on each lend. Scholastic spokesperson Kyle Good confirms to us that it is "the same situation" for Kindle Unlimited -- Amazon informed Scholastic they would be including the books in this program and "they have the right to do it" under their current contract, though there was "no new negotiated deal" specifically covering this usage. As with KOLL, Scholastic will get paid their full wholesale price every time one of their ebooks is opened by a Kindle Unlimited subscriber.
> 
> Other wholesale-basis publishers who declined Amazon's offers to authorize participation have reported the same thing as Scholastic: That Amazon told publishers the etailer has the right to include ebooks in the initiative without permission, as long as they pay for each open as a regular sale. Offers made to publishers to directly authorize participation were similar to the way existing subscription programs such as Oyster and Scribd operate, where the publisher is paid full price after a certain specific percentage of any book is read.
> 
> Houghton Mifflin Harcourt titles beyond just Lord of the Rings are featured prominently on that cached Kindle Unlimited page (including ebooks by Jumpha Lahiri, Margaret Atwood, and Jonathan Safran Foer) and more HMH titles can be found in KU catalog search, creating an impression that the publisher is participating directly. From a quick search of the available catalog, the program also seems to include books from some other publishers known to have directly agreed to participation in KOLL, such as F+W. It appears that you can search a KU Test catalog and/or a KU search box for now.
> 
> Reports on the Kindle Boards discussion forums indicate that Amazon automatically enrolled the 500,000 or more self-published books in the KDP Select program, which seems to account for the bulk of the titles on offer. So it's not clear yet how significantly the Unlimited catalog might differ from the KOLL catalog. On author forums, they were expressing uncertainty about how KDP Select authors will be paid. It could be that they continue to receive a pro-rated share of a pool of amount determined by Amazon, which is how the KOLL "borrows" work, or Amazon might have a different compensation program in mind that they have not explained yet to authors. One person did post having seen something in the FAQ that was also taken down. By their account, it said: "Books in Select will automatically be enrolled. Like the KOLL you won't be able to opt-out if you're in Select. You will be payed if you someone reads 10% or more of your book. The payment will come out of the same KOLL fund, just as if it was a borrow. There was no mention if they would be increasing the fund or not."
> 
> Agency Lite publishers we were able to reach this morning declined to comment on the coming program. From our previous queries, we do not know of any of those five publishers that accepted Amazon's offers. HarperCollins and Simon & Schuster are the only two of the Big Five currently participating in competing subscription programs. In the past, full agency contracts were known to prevent an offer like this without the publisher's direct consent. It's less clear to us whether that is the case under the newer agency contracts as modified by the consent decrees.
> 
> It's also not clear when Amazon will officially announce and launch the program. The company did not respond to our requests for comment. Some publishers told us weeks ago they were told the announcement was coming within days. Other publishers tell us they were notified just recently that the launch is due soon.


----------



## wtvr

Something kind of funny.... Searching "test" under KU brings up only 4 books. One is fiction: "Diary of a Wimpy Kid." That is published by Abrams, which is is distributed by.... HACHETTE.


----------



## Colin

Sorry Hugh, but it had to be done!


----------



## Dalia Daudelin

Just got this from KDP support:



> Hello,
> 
> Thanks for contacting us.
> 
> I understand that you'll like to know how royalties work for Kindle Unlimited.
> 
> When a Kindle Unlimited customer chooses your book for the first time and reads more than 10% of it, or a KOLL user downloads it, their choice qualifies toward royalty payment for you. Customers can always read your book again, as many times as they like, but that won't qualify toward your royalty payments. You can even choose your own book and receive one royalty payment-as long as you're reading it only for the first time, and read more than 10% of it.
> 
> These requirements apply to books in both the Kindle Owners' Lending Library and Kindle Unlimited.
> 
> To learn more about royalties:
> 
> https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=AI3QMVN4FMTXJ
> 
> I hope this helps. Thanks for using KDP.


Interesting that they're okay with us choosing our own book. I wonder if this will factor into our rankings.


----------



## RBC

Well this is insane.. As a reader, I love it, as someone who works with authors.. this is scary shit! 

As mentioned, subscriptions can work in Music industry because people listen to music for hours every day. So the plays add up to billions and billions. In a way, it's even fair that the songs that get listened to most will earn most. But for books, like DVDs it's different. 

The only positive is that it might actually increase the amount of readers overall if this is made to be very easy to read and consume.


----------



## WDR

Well&#8230;

Until I see some numbers offered up by Amazon for what they are wiling to pay authors for their participation, I really can't say anything outside of pure speculation and opinion. I'm not even exactly sure where to start or go with my opinion on the matter. Until then, I've got lots of random thoughts:

What are the terms on which I am paid? Am I paid once when one reader reads my book and that is it? The reader reads my book as many times as they want in perpetuity? That is a purchase, as far as I am concerned, I should be paid my full sales share in that event. As a subscription service, I would assume that each time a book is read, a little something is paid to the author. Of course, that won't be the full sales share, but it shouldn't be microscopic, either. Amazon has to make a profit to make a subscription service work, but they can't starve out the author at the same time.

Will there be a limit to how many times an individual may read any one given title? That would make it profitable for both Amazon and the author. The reader can read as many *titles* as they want, but only _ONCE_ per each title. If they want to read it again, they'll have to buy it. That would work for me. That means I would get paid twice per each ebook sold: once when the reader samples my book and the second time when they come back to buy it. It would be like getting paid a bonus.

It appears that the books listed are Kindle Select only. That makes sense to test the program from Select titles, anyway. When the service becomes live, will it be part of or be replacing the Kindle Select Lending Library? Or will this be a new service? If it is a new service, will it be open to all authors or will authors have to sign up for Kindle Select? I'm not sure I'm willing to close off my sales channels like that.

Kindle Select is great when you are an author with a dedicated following. You are guaranteed that they will borrow your book-and you get paid for that-and then they will most likely buy the book later on. So you get paid twice for one book. But if you are a new author with no following, you will get screwed royally for three months if a popular author releases a book at the same time you did. With only one or two free borrows per month available from the KOLL, [most of the time] a reader will go for the sure thing rather than take a chance on an unknown.

If Kindle Unlimited is open to all authors with no exclusivity limitations, I might participate and allow my titles to be included in the program.

My last thought: this cuts "whales" out of the picture.

A whale in casinos is someone who gambles a large amount of money each time they come for a visit. What a whale loses at a casino more than offsets the cost of food, rooming, and even perks such as limo pick up at the airport, car rentals, tickets for shows, etc. So, whales get all this stuff for free.

So, a "whale" to the book industry is one of those people who reads voraciously on the order of three or more books per week. These people see a book, they buy it. These are the people who will jump on a brand new book from a brand new author immediately on its release. Might take them a couple of years before it comes up on their reading list. By my estimate, between 15%-20% of the copies sold of my own book were to whales.

The flip side is, whales often don't or won't read any given book twice. A whale might spend $9 _per day_ on books. So, $9 per month means they can read all the titles they want at a much reduced budget. That means if a whale borrowed my book and I got paid a few pennies for that borrow, I will probably never see the sale. So if my above estimate is true, I could see a potential 15%-20% reduction in early sales of my books. That could hurt.


----------



## abishop

Atunah said:


> People didn't stop buying DVD's because of Netflix. People didn't stop buying books because of libraries, loaning, paperbackswap etc. People didn't stop buying music because of music services.


DVD sales are definitely declining as Netflix gains market share, though much of that may be moving to digital purchases.

And sales of music have been in decline for years.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

abishop said:


> DVD sales are definitely declining as Netflix gains market share, though much of that may be moving to digital purchases.
> 
> And sales of music have been in decline for years.


On the other hand, people are buying more books with the advent of ebooks. Especially the kind of reader (like me and many of my friends) who used to get books at the library, or the romance readers who'd buy boxes of paperbacks at yard sales. Could it not be that subscription services and the popularity of reading on devices (like smartphones, for younger people) might cause people to read more, and more widely? I know that both my adult (twentysomething) sons read a lot--and a lot of classics, to my shock, partly because they're free. One son just read Don Quixote, War and Peace, and Moby Dick. I've never read any of them!

It's just different, that's all. And the way we'll be paid in the future is probably different. Anyone who relied mostly on royalties from sales of their paperbacks from their traditional publisher might have reason to be very nervous, but I'm not so sure we do. Unsettled, maybe.

Personally, when I look at the net effect of all this recent change? Not a doubt in my mind that it's a win, for me and for most of us. Nobody wanted to spit at my books two years ago. Now? Different story. All thanks to ebooks, and, yes, thanks to Amazon. I'm not the only one. How many of us would be published if not for this revolution? But the revolution's still in its early changes. Adapt or die, that's the bottom line. We can adapt. We're lucky. We're the mammals in the undergrowth, peering out at the dinosaurs out there. The mammals survived.


----------



## Guest

> You're eligible for royalty payment from Kindle Unlimited each time a new customer reads more than 10% of your book for the first time. A customer can read your book again as many times as they like, but you will only receive payment for the first 10% read.
> 
> It may take months for a customer to read more than 10% your book, but no matter how long it takes, you'll still be paid once it happens. This is true even if your KDP Select enrollment period has lapsed, and you chose not to re-enroll.


Doesn't that pretty much mean it will only be available for Select books?


----------



## RBC

abishop said:


> DVD sales are definitely declining as Netflix gains market share, though much of that may be moving to digital purchases.
> 
> And sales of music have been in decline for years.


Newest laptops don't even have DVD ROM anymore so they will be dead in 2 years. Some will keep DVD players but they might become same thing as music fans who collect Vinyls.

And while sales of music had declined, music consumption actually grew and bloomed too. These two aren't 100% correlated.


----------



## Quiss

Stella S. said:


> Doesn't that pretty much mean it will only be available for Select books?


Would seem to be Select. So Amazon's inventory would look a whole lot different than Scribd's.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

I'm guessing it's a Select thing mostly, but look at the big-name Indie authors who recently became available through the KOLL, and, as others have pointed out, titles like Harry Potter that have always been available--whichever authors/publishers Amazon made a deal with, to have their books available. I'm thinking that pool might grow. They want to rival Scribd.

I'm not personally a huge Scribd fan, as they had pirated copies of a couple of my books up on their site with hundreds of downloads recorded. Seems any user can put a book up there, and Scribd doesn't seem to do any kind of checking at all as to whether that book is actually free or eligible for their service. I'm guessing that won't happen with Amazon! Thank goodness.


----------



## adanlerma

Rosalind James said:


> I'm guessing it's a Select thing mostly, but look at the big-name Indie authors who recently became available through the KOLL, and, as others have pointed out, titles like Harry Potter that have always been available--whichever authors/publishers Amazon made a deal with, to have their books available. I'm thinking that pool might grow. They want to rival Scribd.
> 
> I'm not personally a huge Scribd fan, as they had pirated copies of a couple of my books up on their site with hundreds of downloads recorded. Seems any user can put a book up there, and Scribd doesn't seem to do any kind of checking at all as to whether that book is actually free or eligible for their service. I'm guessing that won't happen with Amazon! Thank goodness.


Personally I like the idea of a non-Select only Amazon subscription service, but to be fair, Scribd has taken quite a few effective (at least for my titles) regarding protecting them. At least as far as I know


----------



## GP Hudson

I wonder how Kindle Unlimited will affect services like Bookbub?


----------



## Dom

I'm a bit unsure of any subscription model, of course, but it's the way digital content is moving. Television and music has already gone this way. Perhaps Amazon fought it as long as it could, but if sites like Scribd are gaining ground, it would be irresponsible of Amazon (as a business) to not stay ahead of the curve. So I hope Amazon does right by authors and keeps royalties high.

However, and this is where Amazon can choose to be nice or not, I really hope this program is opt-in for non-Select authors. A program like Kindle Unlimited will lower normal book sales a bit, that much is clear. If non-Select authors are fenced out of this program then this is putting authors between a rock and a hard place. Specifically indie authors. So I hope Amazon does right by us.

On the plus side, this is almost like perma-free from the perspective of the reader, while the author still gets paid, so getting reads should be easier.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

Domino Finn said:


> I'm a bit unsure of any subscription model, of course, but it's the way digital content is moving. Television and music has already gone this way. Perhaps Amazon fought it as long as it could, but if sites like Scribd are gaining ground, it would be irresponsible of Amazon (as a business) to not stay ahead of the curve. So I hope Amazon does right by authors and keeps royalties high.
> 
> However, and this is where Amazon can choose to be nice or not, I really hope this program is opt-in for non-Select authors. A program like Kindle Unlimited will lower normal book sales a bit, that much is clear. If non-Select authors are fenced out of this program then this is putting authors between a rock and a hard place. Specifically indie authors. So I hope Amazon does right by us.


But why on earth would anyone choose to be in Select, if there weren't real benefits to it? Amazon has to offer something, something valuable, in exchange for exclusivity. "Free" and Countdown alone sure won't do it, because you can of course do better with permafree on the other sites, and Countdown's value is limited too (let's just say it works a whole lot better in conjunction with BookBub). Borrows, right now, are one of the main reasons I'm in. If there's a new subscription service, staying in Select might just get a whole lot more attractive. But it would have to be exclusive to Select members, or ... no. There'd be no point.


----------



## Quiss

Domino Finn said:


> However, and this is where Amazon can choose to be nice or not, I really hope this program is opt-in for non-Select authors. A program like Kindle Unlimited will lower normal book sales a bit, that much is clear. If non-Select authors are fenced out of this program then this is putting authors between a rock and a hard place.


Select is already a little short on incentive. Without the KOLL, what is there?
70% in Mexico or Japan where I never ever sell any book?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I get more for borrows on my boks than for sales, so anything that encourages borrows (if it's at the same royalty as KOLL) will be a plus for me


----------



## dmac

I was concerned about the subscription model, but as someone explained to me how places like Scribd/Netflix could stay in business, I think this will be fine. Depending on the fine print (as it always does), this could be a boon for authors. Most people will sign up because it is Amazon, but not everyone will take advantage. If everyone did, then Netflix and buffets everywhere would not be in business.

Let us wait and see what Amazon has up their sleeves. No use getting reactionary (pro or con) over it until then.


----------



## 75910

I agree that Select is short on incentive.  I had my first book in it and was getting what I thought were a decent amount of borrows (about 100 per month).  Once I went on to other platforms, that number didn't look all that great anymore.  Plus, I got hammered by my Nook readers.  They were not happy and I heard about it.  
Now if Amazon offered some sort of BookBub service to Select?  That might be a game changer.


----------



## adanlerma

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I get more for borrows on my boks than for sales, so anything that encourages borrows (if it's at the same royalty as KOLL) will be a plus for me


Yeah, the royalty rate-structure will be very important. Plus, as dmac below says, "the fine print." 

Personally, rather than a pool to be paid from, as is currently done via Select, I'd prefer how Scribd and Oyster pay. And truthfully, several other major non-domestic players getting ready to enter the US market. That's a royalty rate based on retail price up to a set amount.

But we'll see


----------



## wtvr

Olivia Jaymes said:


> Now if Amazon offered some sort of BookBub service to Select? That might be a game changer.


Oh, now you're talking!


----------



## adanlerma

Quiss said:


> Select is already a little short on incentive. Without the KOLL, what is there?
> 70% in Mexico or Japan where I never ever sell any book?


Very true! Be interesting what Amazon will (if all is true, which I think it is) offer.

I still like the idea of non-exclusive for being in the subscription program, but something for those wanting to be exclusive.

Or, based on market share anyway, and reader-buyer preference, maybe Amazon won't need or want exclusive anymore, plus having a big pot to pay from.

So many possibilities - this will have to be a movie someday, streamed on Netflix and Amazon of course


----------



## adanlerma

Olivia Jaymes said:


> Now if Amazon offered some sort of BookBub service to Select? That might be a game changer.


Sounds interesting, how might that work? I haven't used BookBub and am not in Select, so sorry for what might be an obvious answer, thanks Olivia.


----------



## wtvr

Regarding exclusivity, Zon benefits greatly by ruthlessly stripping their competitors of the content they need to stay in business. Unless you're Big 6(5), or a bestseller, I doubt they'll waive that. Why would they?


----------



## H.M. Ward

Hugh Howey said:


> I worry about the "borrow" payout going down to something closer to $1.00. That would be bad.


That. That would be very bad. They've been hounding me to put something in Select for a while now. :/ The word from the herd is the lending pool money is going up, not down. The problem for me is that I'm getting more than $2 on most of my titles, net, without the added 10% rules. That's silly. You only get it if the reader doesn't get interrupted when they 1st open the book? I always get interrupted, especially at the start of a book.

PS, I hate Scribd. They've been one of the biggest PITAs with piracy, meaning I've sent them a bajillion take down notices and my books keep popping up over there anyway. They're still wearing eye patches imho.

PPS, Amazon- tell authors what you're doing. We're not stupid and some of us may actually support the changes if we knew what they were. My minion, dude, we just talked about this.  I know u r gagged and it's not your fault, but OMG. For the love of Pete! Give us a little notice. As a reader, this is AWESOME. As a writer, it's scary and I hope Hugh is correct that the subscription payments will offset the increase in lends.

PPSS, 10% in 1 sitting is STUPID. What's considered 1 sitting? I'm assuming you have til the screen goes to sleep. Babies, life, phone calls - dudes, dumb rule. A guy made this rule, I bet.

Okay, I'm done. Maybe. I might come back later if another rant strikes me.


----------



## 75910

Adanlerma,

Amazon has all the data it needs to know how to direct your advertising to the readers most likely to buy your book.  Currently, Bookbub (for a fee) will send your book info to its subscribers - broken out by sub-genre.  They make money on affiliate fees and we make money selling a boatload of books.  Win-win.  
I've wondered why Amazon doesn't see this potential revenue stream?  Perhaps it's simply too small?  Probably.  They know who has looked at my book page, who has purchased some of my books, and who has purchased books like mine.  If they offered a service to those in Select - for a fee - that would target those readers I would be all over that.  That might be worth giving up the other avenues of revenue.


----------



## GP Hudson

I don't understand what the logic is behind the 10% in one sitting rule. If someone reads 10% of your book they read 10%, what difference does it make if it is in one sitting or five? I don't get how they came up with this?


----------



## Daniel Knight

H.M. Ward said:


> PPSS, 10% in 1 sitting is STUPID. What's considered 1 sitting? I'm assuming you have til the screen goes to sleep. Babies, life, phone calls - dudes, dumb rule. A guy made this rule, I bet.


Holly, there was another quote that Stella posted (not sure of the original source) that said that the 10% could be read over many months - so it doesn't have to be in one sitting. I think maybe you were confused by what the rep said about reading the book for the first time. I think the implication wasn't that it had to be in one sitting but just that you only get paid for the the first time through the book (regardless of how many reading sessions that is).

So a person can read the first 5% in one sitting, then another 5% in another session, then the payment is triggered. Then they can continue to read through to the end of the book. If they start over and cross that 10% page count threshold again - it doesn't trigger another payment.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Koko said:


> I don't understand what the logic is behind the 10% in one sitting rule. If someone reads 10% of your book they read 10%, what difference does it make if it is in one sitting or five? I don't get how they came up with this?


Doesn't sound like there is a 10% in one sitting rule.


----------



## Guest

Daniel Knight said:


> Holly, there was another quote that Stella posted (not sure of the original source) that said that the 10% could be read over many months - so it doesn't have to be in one sitting. I think maybe you were confused by what the rep said about reading the book for the first time. I think the implication wasn't that it had to be in one sitting but just that you only get paid for the the first time through the book (regardless of how many reading sessions that is).
> 
> So a person can read the first 5% in one sitting, then another 5% in another session, then the payment is triggered. Then they can continue to read through to the end of the book. If they start over and cross that 10% page count threshold again - it doesn't trigger another payment.


Oops, here's the source: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=AI3QMVN4FMTXJ


----------



## adanlerma

Olivia Jaymes said:


> Adanlerma,
> If they offered a service to those in Select - for a fee - that would target those readers I would be all over that. That might be worth giving up the other avenues of revenue.


Ahh, thanks Olivia. And if Amazon were collecting a fee from authors and not paying a referral fee to an outside source like BookBub..that $ could cover a lot of stuff


----------



## Quiss

Like someone else highlighted earlier, this little gem seems really bizarre:



> ...each time a* new *customer reads more than 10% of your book ... A customer can read your book again *as many times as they like*, but you will only receive payment for the first 10% read.


WTH does that mean? If they can read it as often as they want it's the same as OWNING it.


----------



## 75910

Technically, if I borrow a Prime book currently I can read it as many times as I like.  I just can't get a new one the next month until I return the other one.  Perhaps, the new program will work like this?  You can't get another book until you return the old one.


----------



## Jan Strnad

It sounds as if KU and KOLL are essentially being merged, which means that they have to add to that $1.2 million pot if KU is at all successful. I wonder if they'd add the $10 monthly subscriber fees or be stingy about it.

Otherwise you'd see that royalty go down, down, down to next to nothing.

Also, as just noted above, it'll be interesting to see if people can have more than one book at a time in their KU library.


----------



## Daniel Knight

Quiss said:


> Like someone else highlighted earlier, this little gem seems really bizarre:
> 
> WTH does that mean? If they can read it as often as they want it's the same as OWNING it.


Except, the customer would only have this feature while they maintain their subscription. I understand your perspective as an author though, since we only get paid once. But I'm guessing this is probably a low frequency use case. How often do readers read the same book again (over any short period of time)? And when they do - they don't typically have to pay for it again anyway.

I think the bigger question remains is what will that first time borrow royalty rate be.

Looking at the upside, this program could be a big boon for writers of shorter stories (like myself). With the current Lending Library I doubt many readers use their single borrow on short stories. With Kindle Unlimited they wouldn't feel this restriction. It could remove the pricing/value perception problem short story writers often face.

If the payment for Kindle Unlimited turns out to be based on sale price of the book, then you can set your price at $2.99 + and get a decent royalty, even though the reader is only paying their subscription fee. On the other hand, if it is based on a split pool like the Lending Library, then you can have the price set at $0.99 to encourage sales, but still get a higher payment through the Kindle Unlimited program for borrows.


----------



## adanlerma

Quiss said:


> Like someone else highlighted earlier, this little gem seems really bizarre:
> 
> WTH does that mean? If they can read it as often as they want it's the same as OWNING it.


Only as long as the reader is in the subscription program, more like a lease; same as Scribd.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Quiss said:


> WTH does that mean? If they can read it as often as they want it's the same as OWNING it.


No, it's just the same as you not getting paid again and them paying forever. Zon-Zon gets their $10/month no matter what.


----------



## adanlerma

Olivia Jaymes said:


> Technically, if I borrow a Prime book currently I can read it as many times as I like. I just can't get a new one the next month until I return the other one. Perhaps, the new program will work like this? You can't get another book until you return the old one.


Some services, and I may have this mix-up, like Oyster allow 10 books checked out at a time, while Scribd allows 20. If I have this wrong, someone please correct me, thanks!


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

LisaGloria said:


> Yes! So many questions...
> 
> Does the book have to be exclusive for us regular, mortal indie types?
> Is the payment based on list price?
> Is there a word-count limit?
> Will percentage-read data figure into bestseller algorithms?
> How will KU borrows affect placement on other bestseller lists?
> Will this change the growing reader backlash against serials?
> What will the effect be on newbies (like me)? Is this another boom?
> How much will we be paid?
> When does it start?
> Can you opt out? Can you opt IN, even if you're not in Select?
> 
> The mind reels!


And will we see a rash of short stories being published into KU and priced at $9.99 solely to reap high royalties?


----------



## Quiss

Daniel Knight said:


> On the other hand, if it is based on a split pool like the Lending Library, then you can have the price set at $0.99 to encourage sales, but still get a higher payment through the Kindle Unlimited program for borrows.


And this, btw, was never fair to those who do offer higher-priced books.


----------



## adanlerma

Daniel Knight said:


> With the current Lending Library I doubt many readers use their single borrow on short stories. With Kindle Unlimited they wouldn't feel this restriction. It could remove the pricing/value perception problem short story writers often face.


Daniel, Scribd has maintained that shorter works are growing in desirability (vs data from Smashwords that longer works are more favored - who knows exactly!), and that they would be favored by younger busier readers commuting etc.

Subscriptions actually, I believe, as per my own use as a reader in Scribd and viewer in Netflix, remove all pricing/value perception, and encourage exploration, which Amazon emphasized and has (had?) on the promo that's disappeared : Freedom to Explore.

That being the number one reason I've listed on my blog posts and comments as to why my wife and I have come to value Netflix so much, and are beginning to enjoy doing so with Scribd and Oyster - and maybe very soon, Amazon.


----------



## wtvr

Saul Tanpepper said:


> And will we see a rash of short stories being published into KU and priced at $9.99 solely to reap high royalties?


That is *exactly* what we would see. So... I doubt it. Probably we are looking at flat rate, with secret separate negotiations for Big 6 and bestseller indies at higher price points.


----------



## adanlerma

LisaGloria said:


> Yes! So many questions...
> 
> Does the book have to be exclusive for us regular, mortal indie types?
> Is the payment based on list price?
> Is there a word-count limit?
> Will percentage-read data figure into bestseller algorithms?
> How will KU borrows affect placement on other bestseller lists?
> Will this change the growing reader backlash against serials?
> What will the effect be on newbies (like me)? Is this another boom?
> How much will we be paid?
> When does it start?
> Can you opt out? Can you opt IN, even if you're not in Select?


LisaGloria, you hit it dead on -

Those are the bottomline make or break questions whose answers to we're all waiting on


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

LisaGloria said:


> That is *exactly* what we would see. So... I doubt it. Probably we are looking at flat rate, with secret separate negotiations for Big 6 and bestseller indies at higher price points.


Yes, I can see where this might force Amazon not to royalty match as if a subscribed read were a purchase. How then do they remain competitive against the other services for content when Scribd and Oyster offer 70%? The 70% royalty subscription model, which eliminates cost from the equation for subscribers and encourages authors to list at higher prices, may actually do what Amazon has supposedly been trying to discourage suppliers from doing: increase ebook prices.


----------



## A past poster

Olivia Jaymes said:


> Adanlerma,
> 
> Amazon has all the data it needs to know how to direct your advertising to the readers most likely to buy your book. Currently, Bookbub (for a fee) will send your book info to its subscribers - broken out by sub-genre. They make money on affiliate fees and we make money selling a boatload of books. Win-win.
> I've wondered why Amazon doesn't see this potential revenue stream? Perhaps it's simply too small? Probably. They know who has looked at my book page, who has purchased some of my books, and who has purchased books like mine. If they offered a service to those in Select - for a fee - that would target those readers I would be all over that. That might be worth giving up the other avenues of revenue.


Amazon doesn't treat all writers equally. Some authors would be allowed to advertise and others wouldn't stand a chance. I've had a nightmarish time with KDP, and I know that others have as well. We'd be left out. And if Amazon gets into advertising and hurts BookBub, the best site we have for promotion wouldn't be as effective.


----------



## thesmallprint

My brain is a single-track dust road. The brain of Jeff Bezos is an eight-lane highway. Nevertheless, here's my guess at what JB is up to here:

*Prime*
Increasing Prime membership is Amazon's top priority. In December last year, JB talked of the 'tens of millions' of Global Prime members. It's notoriously difficult to get sales data from Amazon, but my guess (based on my own buying behaviour) is that Prime members buy a very high percentage of all their purchases from Amazon. The Prime add-ons are secondary to the benefit of free fast delivery of pretty much anything you want.

Amazon have precious data from their two companies, Goodreads and Audible. They know how many people hungrily consume books, and their preferred format. JB will have a very good idea as to how many extra Prime members he'll get from this audience, along with their likely lifetime spend on all Amazon purchases.

*Self-publishing*
Despite media-bias, the line between traditional publishing and self-publishing is becoming more blurred. Books like Wool, FSOG etc., are helping breach that perception border in the public mind. An unlimited digital library of books will, like any market, gradually find its own shape and books will be borrowed on the basis of popularity rather than provenance.

*Select*
You won't be in that library unless your books are in Select, imo. This bolsters another part of JB's multi-faceted business plan to remove as much digital content as he can from competing channels. And we're not just talking about the likes of B&N here - this kills books in Google Play and Apple. Those channels dry up while Amazon grows. Not only has content disappeared outside Amazon, other ereaders become obsolete, pushing their producers closer to doom.

Unlimited subscriptions will finish off Scribd and others in that line. And I suspect that JB has a plan to kill off the book business affiliates like Bookbub - quite what that plan is, I don't know, but KU might be a strand in that strategy.

*Authors*
As for authors, I doubt we are different from apps developers in the minds of many. We could indeed all end up with a dollar a borrow (in fact, come 2020 we might be calling a dollar a borrow the 'good old days'). But the swollen market of buyers/readers this concept delivers might well see many self-publishers making an awful lot of money; especially those with a book series running into double numbers.

*Marketing*
Think of the data we'll get to help hone our individual markets...if more than x% of readers don't get past the first 10% of a title, well, you won't be wasting time on anything like that again. I believe we will be provided with tons of other data from this venture, which will allow us to refine target markets.

I hope this goes ahead. Partly through my fascination as to how it will all turn out, partly because I've always believed that books will do much much better for their authors as low-cost/high-volume entertainment than any other way.

It's an uncertain but hugely exciting time to be a writer. I'm of a generation who was lucky enough to see many of the sporting greats, and some wonderful actors and singers. I count myself privileged to still be around to see what the genius that is Jeffrey Preston Bezos will do next.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Steeplechasing said:


> It's an uncertain but hugely exciting time to be a writer.


That's the bottom line, really. Good stuff.

Roll with the flow or get buried. As Bezos himself said, "Complaining is not a strategy."


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

Steeplechasing said:


> ...I suspect that JB has a plan to kill off the book business affiliates like Bookbub - quite what that plan is, I don't know, but KU might be a strand in that strategy.


I'm not convinced Amazon sees BookBub as a competitor. I, at least, don't understand the thinking behind this idea. Why would they want to drive a company which drives customers to their site out of business?


----------



## MJWare

I woke up this morning to check this thread and I was like, 
*"Oh MY GOD--Look What I've done. If Amazon didn't hate me already, they are going to now!"*

Oh, well, it's not like I'm making much $$$ anyway =-)

My big question is: *Why did Amazon take down the signup page?*

Was this suppose to go live? Was it a test? It doesn't seem like Amazon to put something like this out without thinking it through. I remember when Amazon tested free--they paid me and a lot of other authors thousands for the free downloads--all as part of a test. Just seems strange it was only live for a couple hours?


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

adanlerma said:


> Daniel, Scribd has maintained that shorter works are growing in desirability (vs data from Smashwords that longer works are more favored - who knows exactly!), and that they would be favored by younger busier readers commuting etc.
> 
> Subscriptions actually, I believe, as per my own use as a reader in Scribd and viewer in Netflix, remove all pricing/value perception, and encourage exploration, which Amazon emphasized and has (had?) on the promo that's disappeared : Freedom to Explore.
> 
> That being the number one reason I've listed on my blog posts and comments as to why my wife and I have come to value Netflix so much, and are beginning to enjoy doing so with Scribd and Oyster - and maybe very soon, Amazon.


Scribd also limit the shorter works they include (nothing under 5000words at all, and only 15,000w or more if priced over $0.99. Most of my stand alone study guides aren't in Scribd (2500 words or so), and neither are my longer, article length works because they are $2.99 and about 10K words. And to further complicate things, Scribd does not offer any erotica.

So there is plenty for Amazon to exploit work with when dealing with the upstart. And Oyster got off to a slow start, and has a very limited distribution (no PC interface - android and iOS only, and android is very new).

The bull has just entered the china shop...


----------



## adanlerma

MJAWare said:


> Just seems strange it was only live for a couple hours?


That's all it took, my guess, question answered.

The web is a-fire (no pun intended)


----------



## Hugh Howey

MJAWare said:


> I woke up this morning to check this thread and I was like,
> *"Oh MY GOD--Look What I've done. If Amazon didn't hate me already, they are going to now!"*
> 
> Oh, well, it's not like I'm making much $$$ anyway =-)
> 
> My big question is: *Why did Amazon take down the signup page?*
> 
> Was this suppose to go live? Was it a test? It doesn't seem like Amazon to put something like this out without thinking it through. I remember when Amazon tested free--they paid me and a lot of other authors thousands for the free downloads--all as part of a test. Just seems strange it was only live for a couple hours?


Did you see that you got KBoards mentioned on Engadget?!


----------



## richard.r.fox

Folks,

My rampant speculation:

KU will be part of Prime. Prime has oodles of movies/TV/music to stream, why not books? Another feather in the Prime hat to get people into Amazon's Hotel California of goodness (Yes, metaphor overload). 

Amazon will get into Bookbub like paid advertising. Why give Bookbub that money and affiliate fee? Joe Konrath said he's working with Amazon on paid advertising. My guess is Amazon Bookbub. 

Now, I'll go back to making Marge Simpson worried sounds and freaking out. 

Edit: Hold me, Hugh Howey!


----------



## Jim Johnson

Hugh Howey said:


> Did you see that you got KBoards mentioned on Engadget?!


And TIME.


----------



## adanlerma

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> Scribd also limit the shorter works they include (nothing under 5000words at all, and only 15,000w or more if priced over $0.99. Most of my stand alone study aren't in Scribd, and neither are my longer, article length works because they are $2.99 and under 10K words.


I knew about the nothing under 5000 words (unless free), but didn't about the rest, thanks!


----------



## adanlerma

richard.r.fox said:


> Folks,
> 
> My rampant speculation:
> 
> KU will be part of Prime. Prime has oodles of movies/TV/music to stream, why not books? Another feather in the Prime hat to get people into Amazon's Hotel California of goodness (Yes, metaphor overload).
> 
> Amazon will get into Bookbub like paid advertising. Why give Bookbub that money and affiliate fee? Joe Konrath said he's working with Amazon on paid advertising. My guess is Amazon Bookbub.
> 
> Edit: Hold me, Hugh Howey!


I'd much rather this go Prime (open market) than Select (exclusive).

And yeah, my thoughts too, why pay BookBub?

Give a 10x better rate too


----------



## JumpingShip

H.M. Ward said:


> That. That would be very bad. They've been hounding me to put something in Select for a while now. :/ The word from the herd is the lending pool money is going up, not down. The problem for me is that I'm getting more than $2 on most of my titles, net, without the added 10% rules. That's silly. You only get it if the reader doesn't get interrupted when they 1st open the book? I always get interrupted, especially at the start of a book.
> 
> PS, I hate Scribd. They've been one of the biggest PITAs with piracy, meaning I've sent them a bajillion take down notices and my books keep popping up over there anyway. They're still wearing eye patches imho.
> 
> PPS, Amazon- tell authors what you're doing. We're not stupid and some of us may actually support the changes if we knew what they were. My minion, dude, we just talked about this.  I know u r gagged and it's not your fault, but OMG. For the love of Pete! Give us a little notice. As a reader, this is AWESOME. As a writer, it's scary and I hope Hugh is correct that the subscription payments will offset the increase in lends.
> 
> PPSS, 10% in 1 sitting is STUPID. What's considered 1 sitting? I'm assuming you have til the screen goes to sleep. Babies, life, phone calls - dudes, dumb rule. A guy made this rule, I bet.
> 
> Okay, I'm done. Maybe. I might come back later if another rant strikes me.


I'm understanding 10% for the first time to mean that subsequent re-reads wouldn't get paid. I hope it doesn't mean all at one sitting.


----------



## adanlerma

LisaGloria said:


> do they think that random pricing gives some perception-of-value effect?


I think, like Netflix, the customer is no longer aware, or cares, if the DVD (book) was $1, $5, $10, or more.

That's the lure, it's all part of the subscription. One can explore.

What's the text on the image for Kindle Unlimited?

Freedom to Explore.

# 1 Reason.


----------



## wtvr

adanlerma said:


> I think, like Netflix, the customer is no longer aware, or cares, if the DVD (book) was $1, $5, $10, or more.
> 
> That's the lure, it's all part of the subscription. One can explore.
> 
> What's the text on the image for Kindle Unlimited?
> 
> Freedom to Explore.
> 
> # 1 Reason.


Yeah. It really makes you think that maybe Bezos really *does* have a plan for what he thinks books should cost, across the board.


----------



## Mark Dawson

Steeplechasing said:


> I count myself privileged to still be around to see what the genius that is Jeffrey Preston Bezos will do next.


Splendid analysis. It's a lot of uncertainty, and at a time when I'm very close to junking the FT job with two kids under three, but Amazon have done nothing to self-publishers (yet) other than usher in the golden age of storytelling and make my long cherished dream a reality.

Bezos has earned the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## A.A

I want to feel positive about this, but inside I'm all:


----------



## Jim Johnson

LisaGloria said:


> Yeah. It really makes you think that maybe Bezos really *does* have a plan for what he thinks books should cost, across the board.


I think that's clear from the royalty structure on KDP. I'm confident Amazon knows what they're doing when they offer 70% on prices between 2.99 and 9.99.


----------



## thesmallprint

Saul Tanpepper said:


> I'm not convinced Amazon sees BookBub as a competitor. I, at least, don't understand the thinking behind this idea. Why would they want to drive a company which drives customers to their site out of business?


Because every purchase a person makes (on books or any other product) after clicking through from bookbub, costs Amazon an affiliate commission payment. If all books are exclusive to Amazon, readers don't need a middle man. Also, if authors are happy to pay to promote a book, why wouldn't Amazon provide that service?


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

Amazon is just reacting to developments in written literature in a way that Blockbuster didn't to changes in video distribution, or Yahoo didn't to changes in social media. They seem to be the only big corporation that is sensitive to the market and can react appropriately. 

In one way, it's a good thing, in another, not so good. Companies like Smashwords, D2D, Scribd, and Oyster are going to get trampled and may never reach their full potential, which is a shame.


----------



## thesmallprint

Mark Dawson said:


> Splendid analysis. It's a lot of uncertainty, and at a time when I'm very close to junking the FT job with two kids under three, but Amazon have done nothing to self-publishers (yet) other than usher in the golden age of storytelling and make my long cherished dream a reality.
> 
> Bezos has earned the benefit of the doubt.


Thanks, Mark. Judging by your reviews, you'll have no trouble making a living. Great covers, too. Good luck

Joe


----------



## Jan Strnad

I'm really trying to figure out how this works to our advantage.

Voracious readers will glom onto KU as a godsend. If you want to sell to the people who read the most, you'll be doing it for cheap, and you'll be losing the epub crowd entirely (assuming that Amazon insists on exclusivity).

If you decide to keep your prices "high," and you want to sell on other outlets, you lose the voracious Kindle readers.

A $10/month subscription price puts downward pressure on individually priced books. If a person is even a moderate reader--say, a book a week--they're going to take a dim view of paying more than $2-3 for an ebook that isn't in the KU program.

I don't see how a subscription service does anything for discoverability. People can't buy/borrow/rent/pirate a book they don't know exists, and a subscription program doesn't do anything in itself to bring a book to the forefront. The best tool I've found for making my work discoverable is putting it on sale, but that avenue closes off when the book is available for "free" all the time as part of a subscription plan.

I'd really like to hear how the KU program helps us self-publishers.


----------



## Michael Kingswood

Olivia Jaymes said:


> Now if Amazon offered some sort of BookBub service to Select? That might be a game changer.





Marian said:


> And if Amazon gets into advertising and hurts BookBub, the best site we have for promotion wouldn't be as effective.


Um....they already do. Always have. Amazon routinely picks out books to recommend and sends emails to customers recommending them. So....

What exactly are you looking for/what are you worried about?

?


----------



## richard.r.fox

Michael Kingswood said:


> Um....they already do. Always have. Amazon routinely picks out books to recommend and sends emails to customers recommending them. So....
> 
> What exactly are you looking for/what are you worried about?
> 
> ?


Author's pay Bookbub to get on the mailing list. We don't have that opportunity with Amazon...yet. I would pay big bucks to goose the Amazon database to put my books under the nose of "also bought" readers.


----------



## Jan Strnad

Michael Kingswood said:


> Amazon routinely picks out books to recommend and sends emails to customers recommending them.


That's it... AMAZON picks. You can't buy an ad. Bookbub is selective, but at least approachable.


----------



## Daniel Arenson

I'm seeing opinions ranging from "This is the indie apocalypse!" to "We survived the Lending Library, we'll survive this." I say let's wait and see. We still don't know much.


----------



## Michael Kingswood

richard.r.fox said:


> Author's pay Bookbub to get on the mailing list. We don't have that opportunity with Amazon...yet. I would pay big bucks to goose the Amazon database to put my books under the nose of "also bought" readers.


But not just any author can get in Bookbub, and not whenever they want it. They are choosey, just as Amazon is. But Amazon doesn't charge us to be choosey. So...

Yeah, not seeing the difference really.


----------



## Michael Kingswood

Jan Strnad said:


> That's it... AMAZON picks. You can't buy an ad. Bookbub is selective, but at least approachable.


Either way someone else is picking.

*shrug*

Try sending Amazon some emails requesting more exposure. Could work. Maybe not. But they don't charge us money for it, so...


----------



## Michael Kingswood

Daniel Arenson said:


> I'm seeing opinions ranging from "This is the indie apocalypse!" to "We survived the Lending Library, we'll survive this." I say let's wait and see. We still don't know much.


Word.

Wild speculation, wailing, rending of garments, and gnashing of teeth is premature.


----------



## BillKosl

Living here in Omaha, I just had to get my hands on "Business Adventures" recommended by Old Man Buffet and the Gates boy. I saw the promo on my new Kindle late last night and started my 30-day free trial and downloaded said book. Got the confirmatory email with the wonderful surprise that I would be getting a complimentary 3-month Audible subscription.

Contacted Mayday, where the rep and the supervisor said that I was referring to unlimited free time for children. Went to the Twitter and @KindleHelp finally told me that the "test" was kaput. I still have the free book.


----------



## wtvr

Daniel Arenson said:


> I'm seeing opinions ranging from "This is the indie apocalypse!" to "We survived the Lending Library, we'll survive this." I say let's wait and see. We still don't know much.


How about: We are cannon fodder. Let's get this party started!


----------



## Karen_McQ

My apologies if someone already posted this, but now there's a Youtube video for Kindle Unlimited:


----------



## BillKosl

"Could Penguin Beat Amazon at Book Subscriptions?" [URL=http://www.businessweek]http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-16/could-penguin-beat-amazon-at-book-subscriptions[/url]


----------



## Nicole Ciacchella

I'm still not sure how to feel about this. I need them to define what they mean by "royalty". Are we talking the same royalty I get when I sell a copy of my book, or are we talking a sliding scale depending on how much money they put into the fund? Like Hugh, just thinking about subscription services makes me feel kind of anxious.

I doubt this slip was accidental as I'm sure they're trying to create buzz. I just wish they would have let us authors in on it first.

From a reader standpoint, though, I'd be all over this. I typically read 100+ books a year and I'd definitely try out a wide variety of books that I might not otherwise read. That could be good for authors, as long as the royalties are fair. I'm a Prime member and usually use my KOLL borrow, but given how much I read, getting one book a month has a negligible effect for me.

Add me to the list of people who'd love to see Amazon offer authors more marketing options. I've paid for ads on a variety of sites and would definitely be interested in marketing through Amazon. I love that they send e-mails to me with suggestions and would love to see them carry this sort of thing further.


----------



## wtvr

Does anyone know what that 600,000 number represents? I'm sure it's a threat to scribd and oyster, but what portion of Select does it represent? And if there are more than that in Select - a million? Why didn't it say a million?


----------



## adanlerma

Nicole Ciacchella said:


> I'd definitely try out a wide variety of books that I might not otherwise read...


That's the big plus for me as a reader and a writer. Experienced it via Netflix (as a viewer) and have found it explosive for me as a reader on both Scribd and Oyster.


----------



## Bob Stewart

I have no idea how this will settle out, or who it will be advantageous for, etc., but I really don't think it's worth getting worked up about. What the lay of the land will be in 2016, or 2015, is anyone's guess. And trying to predict how books will be sold in 2020 would most definitely be a mug's game, for us and for Bezos.


----------



## adanlerma

BillKosl said:


> "Could Penguin Beat Amazon at Book Subscriptions?" [URL=http://www.businessweek]http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-16/could-penguin-beat-amazon-at-book-subscriptions[/url]


Interesting article, whole other element I didn't even know about.

Anyone any idea what titles they control that might be a big draw?


----------



## dmac

While we are speculating about anything and everything, it pays to keep in mind that Amazon is about expanding their footprint. If there is no incentive for authors to sign up, then authors will not sign up. 

See: Select. (I know many have issues with it, but it is still a very viable way to introduce a new author to a mass audience in a very short time. I am proof of that, and so are many others.) 

There must be some incentive to pull authors away from Scribd and other channels with a similar distribution model. Anything that authors see as losing them money will not cause them to sign up. I am sure Amazon is fully aware of this and it will reflect in their incentives.


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

We operate in a very fluid environment. Big changes can happen fast. The best that we can do is keep writing and getting good quality material out there. Everything else is, as they say here in Oz, urinating into the wind...


----------



## MJWare

Hugh Howey said:


> Did you see that you got KBoards mentioned on Engadget?!





Jim Johnson said:


> And TIME.


Dear Amazon,

Let me publicly apologize for inadvertently spoiling--_please don't ban my account_--the announcement of your exciting, and wonderful new program, Amazon Unlimited. Which I am positive will be wildly successful--_please don't ban my account_--for both readers and writers.

As a show of my sincerity--_please don't ban my account_--I would like to offer my first-born son to work in one of your huge, but employee friendly warehouses, where I am sure he will have the opportunity to learn valuable job skills.

In close, I hope you accept my sincere regret for letting the cat out of the bag--_please don't ban my account_--and that you don't harbor any ill feelings toward me.

You sincere and humble servant, 
MJ Ware


----------



## wtvr

Sorry, too late. Drones on their way.


----------



## GP Hudson

The way Amazon made their free promo less effective suddenly makes more sense.


----------



## Scott Reeves

Speaking as a reader, here is why I think this is a good thing. I browse the kindle store daily, or every few days, and constantly download samples of books I might be even slightly interested in reading. The only problem is, I rarely actually read those samples, because I don't want to begin sampling the book until I can actually BUY the book if I like it. I don't want to read a bit and then have to stop until I can buy the book. I'm on a limited book budget, and if there are books higher up on my "want to read" list, then the lower books are going to miss out until they work their way upwards. Thus, every day there are samples accumulating in my kindle app that I will probably never get around to reading OR buying. 

Kindle Unlimited will change that. If I have unlimited access to any book, the "wait until I can afford it" barrier is removed. I'll start reading those samples, and if I pass the 10% mark, the author gets a payment. It's like being in a humongous library. I check out books in the library that I would never even consider paying for in a bookstore. And I actually read them. Just like on Netflix. I watch movies and TV shows on Netflix that I would never have watched if I had to pay for them individually.

So when the writer side of me looks at how the reader side of me views Kindle Unlimited, he thinks it's a good thing for writers.


----------



## Ava Glass

Scribd's sub service apparently doesn't include erotica and very short works due to the payout system. Does Kindle Unlimited have similar restrictions?


----------



## JumpingShip

I wonder if this is why royalties from ACX were cut? I'm not really sure how it fits into the mix and it may be unrelated--just something that crossed my mind. I wonder how they will pay for audiobooks listened to in KU? I mean, two dollars split between author and narrator isn't that great, but maybe there will be a big increase in listens? And how are they choosing audiobooks to include in the library? Do the ebooks have to be in Select? Do they have to have whispersync? Two of mine have whispersync, two don't--but they are all part of a series, so that could stink for listeners.


----------



## WDR

If someone is going to buy your book, they are only ever going to buy it _once_.

So, if I am going to get paid the same proceed share from a regular sale when someone reads 10% of my book via the Kindle Unlimited, then I can be happy with that. In fact, I would encourage such a program. (But if I am paid a lesser share of the sales proceeds, then I'd be upset, because the program just cost me a portion of my income.)

That reader can then read my book as many times as desired, because in my mind (and bank account) it is the same as if they purchased my book.


----------



## 75814

Vaalingrade said:


> Here's the thing though. In a few years, _you're not going to have a choice_. Subscription services are essentially money for nothing continually while actual ownership is a one time transaction. Businesses have vanishingly little reason to actually let you keep stuff anymore.


Agreed. Even when you buy a digital product, you aren't buying the product, you're buying a license. A license they can screw with any time they like. In the long run, this kind of thing is bad for consumers, bad for content creators, and only good for the guys at the top of the food chain. I've said before there will probably come a time when Amazon starts undercutting indie writers to maximize their own profits. I fear this is the beginning of that.

An unlimited subscription service and the same royalty rate won't be sustainable. The rate will drop.


----------



## wtvr

Perry Constantine said:


> An unlimited subscription service and the same royalty rate won't be sustainable. The rate will drop.


Of course it will drop. There will probably be a decent start point to gain traction, and then it will inexorably slide toward exactly what you're afraid it will be.

Don't let that stop you from getting in on the boom, though. And when you strike Texas Tea, do a little jig alla way to the bank.


----------



## Colin

In the style of Ali G: Dis 'as caused massive speculation across da nation.



Good night fellow speculators.


----------



## Hugh Howey

Here's something I would like to see added to any subscription service: Complete transparency to the reader on how much they just contributed to the author, with a "Tip" button at the purchase point and also upon completion of the book. No pressure, just the ability to support writers after each read.

I'd use that button, as a reader.


----------



## MJWare

MaryMcDonald said:


> I wonder if this is why royalties from ACX were cut? I'm not really sure how it fits into the mix and it may be unrelated--just something that crossed my mind. I wonder how they will pay for audiobooks listened to in KU? I mean, two dollars split between author and narrator isn't that great, but maybe there will be a big increase in listens? And how are they choosing audiobooks to include in the library? Do the ebooks have to be in Select? Do they have to have whispersync? Two of mine have whispersync, two don't--but they are all part of a series, so that could stink for listeners.


Not that it necessarily means much, but last night my one audiobook was not listed. Might be something we'd need to opt into, but that's just a guess


----------



## MJWare

BillKosl said:


> Living here in Omaha, I just had to get my hands on "Business Adventures" recommended by Old Man Buffet and the Gates boy. I saw the promo on my new Kindle late last night and started my 30-day free trial and downloaded said book. Got the confirmatory email with the wonderful surprise that I would be getting a complimentary 3-month Audible subscription.
> 
> Contacted Mayday, where the rep and the supervisor said that I was referring to unlimited free time for children. Went to the Twitter and @KindleHelp finally told me that the "test" was kaput. I still have the free book.


Let me get this straight, you signed up last night and today they've canceled your service? Crazy.


----------



## adanlerma

Hugh Howey said:


> Here's something I would like to see added to any subscription service: Complete transparency to the reader on how much they just contributed to the author, with a "Tip" button at the purchase point and also upon completion of the book. No pressure, just the ability to support writers after each read.
> 
> I'd use that button, as a reader.


Takes me back to my waiter days 

BTW, how many sigs we got now on that petition?


----------



## Vaalingrade

Hugh Howey said:


> Here's something I would like to see added to any subscription service: Complete transparency to the reader on how much they just contributed to the author, with a "Tip" button at the purchase point and also upon completion of the book. No pressure, just the ability to support writers after each read.
> 
> I'd use that button, as a reader.


Pay What You Want pricing should be an option on every platform.


----------



## Guest

My books won't be priced higher than $2.99.  So for me as a Select person, if Amazon doesn't lower the royalty on a borrow, this is good news.  I'll wait for Amazon to give me the offical information.  Anything else is just speculation in about 100 different ways, all of which I have little time for.


----------



## Vaalingrade

LisaGloria said:


> Don't let that stop you from getting in on the boom, though. And when you strike Texas Tea, do a little jig alla way to the bank.


There's not likely to be a boom for _us_. And if this is Select-only for the cannon fodder, one would be strapped in for 90 days of bust trying to get in on it. No thanks.


----------



## wtvr

Vaalingrade said:


> There's not likely to be a boom for _us_. And if this is Select-only for the cannon fodder, one would be strapped in for 90 days of bust trying to get in on it. No thanks.


Why not? The last 2 years were already an indie boom. This is a new part of market they want to dominate... no boom this time? Why do you think so?


----------



## Victorine

BillKosl said:


> Living here in Omaha, I just had to get my hands on "Business Adventures" recommended by Old Man Buffet and the Gates boy. I saw the promo on my new Kindle late last night and started my 30-day free trial and downloaded said book. Got the confirmatory email with the wonderful surprise that I would be getting a complimentary 3-month Audible subscription.
> 
> Contacted Mayday, where the rep and the supervisor said that I was referring to unlimited free time for children. Went to the Twitter and @KindleHelp finally told me that the "test" was kaput. I still have the free book.


**Waves to Bill from Seward, NE**


----------



## 75814

LisaGloria said:


> Of course it will drop. There will probably be a decent start point to gain traction, and then it will inexorably slide toward exactly what you're afraid it will be.
> 
> Don't let that stop you from getting in on the boom, though. And when you strike Texas Tea, do a little jig alla way to the bank.


Supporting a platform that will further undercut me in the future for some immediate gain doesn't strike me as a very good long-term strategy.


----------



## wtvr

Perry Constantine said:


> Supporting a platform that will further undercut me in the future for some immediate gain doesn't strike me as a very good long-term strategy.


Do you have another long-term strategy?

Having my distributor open up a new market is just about the most exciting thing I can think of, as a content producer.


----------



## Jan Strnad

But is it a new market? Or does it merely cannibalize the existing market and pay us lower royalties?


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

Perry Constantine said:


> Supporting a platform that will further undercut me in the future for some immediate gain doesn't strike me as a very good long-term strategy.


How can you have a long term strategy in this environment?

All we know for sure is that Amazon needs content, which is why they insist on exclusivity. Everything else, up to and including the possibility that Amazon will go bust in the near term, is uncertain.

The only positive thing we can do is create more content while it is so valuable. There may indeed come a time when there is too much content and we return to the bad old days when the robber barons could exclude writers from the market because they were having a bad hair day, but until that day comes, we should be writing as fast and as well as we can.

We should be writing as if there is no tomorrow because, for those of us who want to write for a living, there might not be!


----------



## Quiss

Jan Strnad said:


> But is it a new market? Or does it merely cannibalize the existing market and pay us lower royalties?


Yeah, this. 
Maybe some folks here are watching more movies than before, but Speed isn't competing with 600,000 other movies. Speed has made money in the box office and the actors got paid. Speed is a backlist item. 
Without price (freebies, specials, countdown) as a marketing tool, the only way to promote _unknown_ books in KU is via categories, maybe keywords. Or by paying for advertising.
I'd be willing to put money on the likelihood that the authors will end up with the short end of the stick.


----------



## Vaalingrade

LisaGloria said:


> Do you have another long-term strategy?
> 
> Having my distributor open up a new market is just about the most exciting thing I can think of, as a content producer.


If getting in on it requires select, it's a severe limitation of your channels to use it.

Otherwise, any temporary gain you get from this will be basically making sure the future you only gets paid a pittance when, as you already said, it goes down.


----------



## AJStewart

I can't help thinking there is a 2 tier system in the making, because that's what I see with video. I have both Netflix and Amazon Prime, and I only really keep Netflix for the kids programs that my son can watch without being brainwashed by junk food ads. Both these services offer big catalogs but that are primarily backlist or the old "made for TV" type movie (with the odd top liner but not many). If we want to watch a new release movie on the weekend we stream it through Amazon Instant Video and pay for it.

Scribd seems the same as Netflix, big list, not many current releases from what I see (eg no Lee Child, Dan Brown I saw some older stuff, not Da Vinci or Inferno), so lots to choose from but if you want the latest from your fav author, you have to buy it, and Scribd even has those buy links. Perhaps Amazon will do the same. For unknown authors it might be a case of permafree becoming KU and then not having your latest and best in KU, so readers who really like your work will have to buy those.


----------



## GP Hudson

AJStewart said:


> I can't help thinking there is a 2 tier system in the making, because that's what I see with video. I have both Netflix and Amazon Prime, and I only really keep Netflix for the kids programs that my son can watch without being brainwashed by junk food ads. Both these services offer big catalogs but that are primarily backlist or the old "made for TV" type movie (with the odd top liner but not many). If we want to watch a new release movie on the weekend we stream it through Amazon Instant Video and pay for it.
> 
> Scribd seems the same as Netflix, big list, not many current releases from what I see (eg no Lee Child, Dan Brown I saw some older stuff, not Da Vinci or Inferno), so lots to choose from but if you want the latest from your fav author, you have to buy it, and Scribd even has those buy links. Perhaps Amazon will do the same. For unknown authors it might be a case of permafree becoming KU and then not having your latest and best in KU, so readers who really like your work will have to buy those.


That makes sense. I just hope it doesn't end up training people not to use the buy button.


----------



## Victorine

I imagine Amazon will allow us to opt into the library, like we do for everything else. The question will be, will it be worth it?

Netflix is great, but of course you can't get every new movie on there. Otherwise no one would go see new movies, or buy them on DVD. Amazon knows this. They want to make more money, not crash their ebook sales. They're going to be smart about how they do this, I'm sure.


----------



## adanlerma

AJStewart said:


> I can't help thinking there is a 2 tier system in the making, because that's what I see with video. I have both Netflix and Amazon Prime, and I only really keep Netflix for the kids programs that my son can watch without being brainwashed by junk food ads. Both these services offer big catalogs but that are primarily backlist or the old "made for TV" type movie (with the odd top liner but not many). If we want to watch a new release movie on the weekend we stream it through Amazon Instant Video and pay for it.
> 
> Scribd seems the same as Netflix, big list, not many current releases from what I see (eg no Lee Child, Dan Brown I saw some older stuff, not Da Vinci or Inferno), so lots to choose from but if you want the latest from your fav author, you have to buy it, and Scribd even has those buy links. Perhaps Amazon will do the same. For unknown authors it might be a case of permafree becoming KU and then not having your latest and best in KU, so readers who really like your work will have to buy those.


I haven't had any reason not to have my current titles on Scribd and Oyster.

I get paid on a read, just like a buy. Same amt, or close.

And what I've read is big publ have been adding more current titles as they see that's the case, ie, same as a sale.

I just finished 3rd bk in the Stefanie Plum series from Janet Evanovich. Not a current title, but not in the first batch of titles Scribd first had.

For me, Scribd has done as well as most of the major etailers.


----------



## dianasg

My sister and I were talking about this today, and I brought up Spotify because I know she uses it. She says she's aware the artists get paid very little, but also said she'd discovered a lot of newer, indie artists through the platform's recommendation engine. (Her exact words were "But it tells me, if you like Ed sheeran, try these!") She says she listens to the new artist until she learns a lot of the songs, then buys the whole album on iTunes. 

She listens to music the way readers here at KB fly through books. I think these subscription services are probably most useful to authors for discoverability, sort of like how many use free now. Like a 'Try before you buy' thing. As with free, the author doesn't (or won't, in time) make much. 

So what one might do is write a short novel set in the world of one of their series, then put it in KU as a way to catch new eyes, and draw people into reading more stories set in that world. Loss leader, etc etc. 

At first I thought, if readers pay for this, will they ever pay for a book again? And the answer is of course - just like how the existence of a gazillion free books doesn't mean people don't still buy books. Someone tell me if my logic is totally flawed here! 

Vaalingrade makes some darn good points, though.


----------



## jimkukral

sarahdalton said:


> Me too. I hope they all fail to be honest, even though I have my books opted in to ScribD and Oyster. The thought of books being turned into Spotify... those tiny royalties... it scares me.
> 
> Time to get that mailing list built up!


Yep. Amazon is great, but they don't share the customer information with us. Now that's a feature I'd like to have. This new thing will flush out like everything else. It'll be awesome for some, and others not so much. Wait and see is the mantra.


----------



## VEVO

Kindle Unlimited will be more like Netflix than Spotify

*Spotify:* 99% of the music a typical customer is looking for (very few holdouts). Many don't buy music anymore since Spotify serves all their music needs for $9.99 a month.

*Netflix:* maybe 25% of new movies and tv shows that a typical customer is looking for. Which mean that typical customer will be much more likely to buy movies, rent movies, subscribe to Hulu, subscribe to cable TV to supplement their viewings.

Like the Netflix customer, Kindle Unlimited customer will also buy books because of the many holdouts.

Basically, if a typical reader read 10 books a month, that person might only read 5 books from Kindle Unlimited, the other 5 books are from purchase.

5 books a month = $9.99 x 70% royalties = *$1.4 royalties per book.*

If the ratio is 4 books a month with Kindle Unlimited, 6 books a month from purchase, then

4 books a month = $7 royalties =* $1.75 royalties per book*


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

DianaGabriel said:


> My sister and I were talking about this today, and I brought up Spotify because I know she uses it. She says she's aware the artists get paid very little, but also said she'd discovered a lot of newer, indie artists through the platform's recommendation engine. (Her exact words were "But it tells me, if you like Ed sheeran, try these!") She says she listens to the new artist until she learns a lot of the songs, then buys the whole album on iTunes.
> 
> She listens to music the way readers here at KB fly through books. I think these subscription services are probably most useful to authors for discoverability, sort of like how many use free now. Like a 'Try before you buy' thing. As with free, the author doesn't (or won't, in time) make much.
> 
> So what one might do is write a short novel set in the world of one of their series, then put it in KU as a way to catch new eyes, and draw people into reading more stories set in that world. Loss leader, etc etc.
> 
> At first I thought, if readers pay for this, will they ever pay for a book again? And the answer is of course - just like how the existence of a gazillion free books doesn't mean people don't still buy books. Someone tell me if my logic is totally flawed here!
> 
> Vaalingrade makes some darn good points, though.


This is my current thinking as well. Will I put any of my current books into Select to get into KU? HELL NO! I would lose all traction in my other channels just at the point they are paying off. Will I put a new release for my series in it? HELL NO! My readers would go ape[crap] if they are forced to use Amazon exclusively.

But would I write a special funnel book and put THAT in? Hell yes! A book like that to lead readers into your existing paid for series would be gold. Its basically a permafree book on crack! The reader gets an almost free book and Iget paid. How much? We don't know, but I don't get paid for permafree now except in promo credits (sort of) that pay off when readers follow through and buy the sequels.


----------



## Colin

Mark E. Cooper said:


> This is my current thinking as well. Will I put any of my current books into Select to get into KU? HELL NO! I would lose all traction in my other channels just at the point they are paying off. Will I put a new release for my series in it? HELL NO! My readers would go ape[crap] if they are forced to use Amazon exclusively.
> 
> But would I write a special funnel book and put THAT in? Hell yes! A book like that to lead readers into your existing paid for series would be gold. Its basically a permafree book on crack! The reader gets an almost free book and I get paid. How much? We don't know, but I don't get paid for permafree now except in promo credits (sort of) that pay off when readers follow through and buy the sequels.


Nicely put, Mark.

I would say this is probably the best advice for those who have a series of books.


----------



## Lady Vine

They're probably going to do what they should have done a long time ago: give the sale price on borrows of books below $2.99. That will free up quite a bit of money to begin with. And then offer 40-50% on titles over $2.99 as an incentive, because, well, authors have been accepting $2 on their more expensive titles for awhile anyway, so this will be an improvement.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

I don't see how we can say it's a good or bad thing until we know the specifics of it. I'm not going to freak out until I know.


----------



## Caddy

Mark E. Cooper said:


> This is my current thinking as well. Will I put any of my current books into Select to get into KU? HELL NO! I would lose all traction in my other channels just at the point they are paying off. Will I put a new release for my series in it? HELL NO! My readers would go ape[crap] if they are forced to use Amazon exclusively.
> 
> But would I write a special funnel book and put THAT in? Hell yes! A book like that to lead readers into your existing paid for series would be gold. Its basically a permafree book on crack! The reader gets an almost free book and Iget paid. How much? We don't know, but I don't get paid for permafree now except in promo credits (sort of) that pay off when readers follow through and buy the sequels.


I was thinking the same. Also, if you have a series and the first is perma-free, people will still download the perma-free. And, if they like the first book, a certain percentage (just like now) will buy the rest of the series. None of those need to be in this program, including the perma-free. Why would putting a book in this program be any more enticing to a reader than a free book? Maybe I'm not thinking clearly and missing the "fear" issue here. It IS 3am so I could be.


----------



## Colin

yodaoneforme said:


> I don't see how we can say it's a good or bad thing until we know the specifics of it. I'm not going to freak out until I know.


I think for people like Mark, who has a series of books which he could promote via a 'funnel book' on KU, it could be good - regardless of the royalty rate.

For others it's probably best to take a chill-pill and wait and see!


----------



## books_mb

It sounds good so far. 600,000 titles (including 7,300 audio books) for 10 $, plus reading on iPad and iPhone (their Kindle Unlimited hipster ad shows both). Should bring in enough customers to make up for the decrease in royalties (which I assume will happen?). Getting paid once the reader goes past 10 % also sounds like a fair deal. If trad publishers resist this, it will be even better for indies. I'm sure Amazon thought this through and draws the right conclusions from their tests. They want to dominate the market and they can't do that by ******* their authors. They have to stay attractive to both customers and authors.

But it sucks that I had to hear this from the mass media. An email from Amazon would have been nice.


----------



## B.A. Spangler

Just a matter of time before Amazon offered a subscription based model.
And as Amazon changes (as the industry changes) we'll have to adjust and change with it.

A funnel book is a great example of connecting to readers in a changing delivery model. Now I need to go write one.


----------



## Jash

books_mb said:


> But it sucks that I had to hear this from the mass media. An email from Amazon would have been nice.


It hasn't even been announced or confirmed yet. Everything is speculation based on a couple of pages that were temporarily available yesterday either by accident or an intentional leak that was supposed to look accidental.

Not saying Amazon will send you an email if/when they decide to announce this, but you're not really hearing about it from the mass media. The mass media is hearing about it from us!


----------



## ThrillerWriter

http://www.spotifyartists.com/spotify-explained/

The reason artists receive so little from Spotify is the way their contracts are negotiated.


----------



## CristinaRayne

I just hope we'll be given the choice to opt in _without_ having to be in Select.


----------



## Colin

Jash said:


> ...you're not really hearing about it from the mass media. The mass media is hearing about it from us!


The mass hysteria!


----------



## Guest

Guys, I don't think you get what amazing things are happening. I've read all the posts and most are about what will happen to indie income?

BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES!!!!

Two reasons: 1: Scribd  exists. Amazon as a company has to react to that challenge. Amazon reinvented book publishing and selling. They put the big book stores out of business. They do not want an upstart like Scribd to do the same to them. There are indies here on Kboards, who have books on Scribd and they like the income. So the model itself works for indies. What does it matter whether Scribd does it or Amazon?

2: Amazon is not trying to get their beaks into more indie money, not even your money Hugh Howey  . They are after a ten billion dollar industry. The Libraries of America. Librarians are the ones, who will feel the pinch, not us indies. I spent a lot of time in libraries as a kid. Goooo Librarians!!! As a grown up trying to make a living as an indie writer, my books are not in the libraries, so "Booooo" to you librarians. Librarians are trying to make a living, but so am I. Come on! Besides Amazon didn't start the library fight, Scribd did. Blame them!

If we get the tens of millions of Americans visiting libraries to come over to Kindle Unlimited, how is that bad for us indies? How is having tens of millions of new readers looking for our books bad for us indies?

BOOM TIMES GUYS!!!! JUST THINK!!!!

CALL TO ACTION: remove your books from all non-Amazon platforms and put them in Select. We must make this thing work. 

During the fight with Hachette, when Stephen King and James Patterson wanted readers to boycott Amazon and get Washington involved, Amazon was on the ropes, almost defeated, it was indies Hugh Howey and Joe Konrath organizing the indie writers to counter their nonsense that helped Amazon back on its feet, able to fight another day. Amazon knows this. They are not trying to short change indies. We're in this together. They scratch our backs, we scratch theirs. 

We are at the moment getting a slice of the cake that traditionally the big publishers were splitting with million selling writers. With Kindle Unlimited we get some of that 10 billion dollar library money!

BOOM TIMES!!!


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

drno said:


> What does it matter whether Scribd does it or Amazon?


Oh me me me! I know the answer to this one! Amazon requires exclusivity, Scribd doesn't.



> CALL TO ACTION: remove your books from all non-Amazon platforms and put them in Select. We must make this thing work.


ROFL


----------



## Ann in Arlington

FWIW.

This reader is not likely to pay extra for the subscription service. Won't say "won't", but I know me, and it's not likely. 

Yes, I use my monthly borrow as a Prime member, and if this service is free to me as a prime member already (even if maybe more limited than the full service) I will very likely try to use it to the extent I'm allowed. I have Prime mostly for shipping -- the free book borrow a month is icing on the cake as is the free forever book a month via the Kindle First program. Which, I note, is available to non Prime members as well for $1.99; most books in the program will be released at $3.99 or $4.99.

I do use my county's public library -- usually for books that I'm pretty sure I'd like to read but not sure I want to pay for . . . so, for example, I have several on my wait list that have come out recently at much higher purchase prices -- like $10.99 to $13.99. I want to read them, but don't need to own them at that price.

Here's the thing. . . . . I can do math with the best of 'em, and it's really going to come down to me working out about how much I spend AND read a month anyway and looking at whether books I'd really want to read are in the program.

For example, I don't spend more than $ 4 or $5 for most books. Sometimes up to $7 or $8 but only rarely do I spend $10 or more. Additionally, I don't think I average more than 2 or 3 books a month and there are some months -- like when I'm in the midst of tax season, that if I read 1 I feel like I've done well. It's not that I don't read a lot, it's that I read other stuff too -- like I get the paper every day, there are magazines, and I usually have several books going at once. But I probably only read for an average of a couple of hours a day most of the time and I tend to like longer books. So that's the money.

The other thing is, even if I go back and really analyze things and find that, hey, I do read a lot more than I think I do so a flat $10 or so a month might be worth it: Do They Have The Books I Want To Read? That's a major question. If I'm paying $10 a month to get all I want, but what I want most is not in the program and I'm having to spend to get it anyway, or borrow from my county library, I'm not saving money.

So . . . . . for me . . . . I'll want to see how it all works and what the costs involved might be and do an analysis of my reading habits. I'm fortunate that I have the discretionary income, but even if I had to stop buying books TODAY, I've got enough in my account to last me years. Plus, I rarely spend 'real money' on Kindle books -- I keep a gift card balance which I started for convenience but it's been, literally, _years_ since I had to buy myself a GC to keep it topped up. The balance now has all come from birthday/christmas presents, affiliate payments through a friend's site that I help him with, turning in loose change to coin star, and points from my Amazon credit card. When that balance gets low, I stop buying for a while.

I have been a member of some of the old 'book a month' clubs -- Mystery Guild, etc. I could always find some books for my first bargain set, and usually had no problem buying the one or two I needed in the next year to stay in good standing, but then it would get to where I didn't have the time, or maybe the inclination, to search for something every month so unless the featured books looked good, I just tried to remember to send the card back with a 'no thanks.' And usually cancelled after a few months of having forgotten and having had not-really-wanted books show up on my doorstep.  I feel like that's where I'd end up -- spending $10 a month but not really using the service.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

drno said:


> What does it matter whether Scribd does it or Amazon?


From a reader's perspective, Scribd won't work for me, were I so inclined. Oyster neither. Because both require apps on a tablet. I can't put a book on my eInk kindle, which is my preferred reading device. With an Amazon program, I could.


----------



## heynonny

As someone noted upthread, this is all about shoring up the desirability of Amazon Prime, especially as they've increased the price of participation.

Outside the indie book bubble, to the average person Amazon is a big ole oligarichal meanie trying to screw authors and publishers. I doubt Amazon _at this point and time_ wants to get into another pissing contest with authors by offering unfavorable terms, thereby confirming their worst fears and throwing gas onto the fire. Yet. Eventually they'll tinker with the profit margins if the program proves successful.

Subscription services are the future. Yes, it sucks for the artist, but its the way people are consuming entertainment now. I'm surprised Amazon hasn't already created a program for books.


----------



## Quiss

drno said:


> CALL TO ACTION: remove your books from all non-Amazon platforms and put them in Select. We must make this thing work.
> BOOM TIMES!!!


Dude. Seriously. B&N is rocking my world right now and Amazon hasn't even bothered to send an email.
Wait. And. See.


----------



## Quiss

VEVO said:


> 5 books a month = $9.99 x 70% royalties = *$1.4 royalties per book.*


You're not seriously expecting to receive 70% royalties, are you? 

Can someone describe how Netflix works in terms of gaining visibility?
How do the more obscure movies get found? Do people just look for the titles/directors/actors they already know or heard of, or do they use categories or keywords to find new stuff? Do reviews matter there?


----------



## Ann in Arlington

anibolton said:


> Outside the indie book bubble, to the average person Amazon is a big ole oligarichal meanie trying to screw authors and publishers.


I'd say that, to the average person, Amazon is a huge internet retailer with generally very good prices and reliable delivery, where you can get just about anything you want . . . that amazing hot sauce you found in a grocery store on vacation on the other side of the country that they don't sell here, strings for your six stringed tenor ukulele, or a specialty switch that lets the lights in your cupboard go on when you open the door.

The average person isn't paying any real attention to any of the kerfuffles and brouhahas. They don't have any real interest in the issues the authors and publishers think about. They just want to know if they can keep getting what they want cheaply and efficiently.

When this Kindle Unlimited thing goes live for real, I expect they'll have a fair number of takers . . . . .


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Quiss said:


> You're not seriously expecting to receive 70% royalties, are you?
> 
> Can someone describe how Netflix works in terms of gaining visibility?
> How do the more obscure movies get found? Do people just look for the titles/directors/actors they already know or heard of, or do they use categories or keywords to find new stuff? Do reviews matter there?


I don't know about "gaining visibility"  but I can tell you how I use Netflix and Prime Video. Sometimes I search, but more often I just browse through "new releases" and recommendations based on my viewing. I tend to watch new stuff, some I've never heard of, more than seeking out new hot stuff. Though I do some of that, too.

Betsy


----------



## adanlerma

Ann in Arlington said:


> From a reader's perspective, Scribd won't work for me, were I so inclined. Oyster neither. Because both require apps on a tablet. I can't put a book on my eInk kindle, which is my preferred reading device. With an Amazon program, I could.


Ann, with Scribd (and not trying to chg your mind) one can also read online direct. Also a tablet is not required, one can use a smart phone, or any computer, even the Kindle Fire (I use all of those).

But you're right re the eInk Kindle, not positive, but I don't think the Scribd app will work there.

Also, have been getting into what libraries offer more and more recently, and some of the programs and delivery systems that OverDrive and Baker & Taylor are offering the libraries are getting better and better.
http://blogs.overdrive.com/front-page-library-news/2014/06/26/overdrive-to-present-20142015-ebook-lending-roadmap-at-national-library-conference/

For me, I'm just amazed how much has changed as I grow into my 60s 

And I remember when that small oval b&w tv was a big deal!


----------



## adanlerma

Quiss said:


> You're not seriously expecting to receive 70% royalties, are you?
> 
> Can someone describe how Netflix works in terms of gaining visibility?
> How do the more obscure movies get found? Do people just look for the titles/directors/actors they already know or heard of, or do they use categories or keywords to find new stuff? Do reviews matter there?


Quiss, I get 60% (70 - 10% to Smashwords) at both Scribd and Oyster.

My wife and I have used Netflix since the mid 2000s, and our way of finding new stuff has changed the last few years. At first of course we wanted anything recent we'd missed at the movies. Still do that somewhat, but very little. Categories seems to have worked best for us right now. Searching mysteries we can across really old (70s) BBC stuff with Helen Mirren, then mysteries series from Australia like the Miss Fisher tv series, and odd titles we'd never heard of that we felt comfortable trying because we knew we wouldn't be buying something we'd either have to return or keep but not like.

Reviews have mattered much much less. The simple (good or bad) one liners are meaningless. Mean spirited or super rah-rah stuff the same way, unless accompanied with samples from the work.

Anyway, all just interesting times. We try to roll with the changes. In our 60s, my wife and I have learned to enjoy many of the new tech & digital stuff, but still like some of the old.


----------



## Jan Strnad

Quiss said:


> Can someone describe how Netflix works in terms of gaining visibility?
> How do the more obscure movies get found? Do people just look for the titles/directors/actors they already know or heard of, or do they use categories or keywords to find new stuff? Do reviews matter there?


NetFlix has great algorithms. They come up with categories such as "goofy movies" and "raunchy movies" and "because you watched Breaking Bad" and "20th century period movies" and "critically acclaimed comedies" that present movies I'm not familiar with. I like that their thinking goes beyond the usual categories of "thriller" and "romance" to try to zero in on qualities that make TV shows and movies appealing to individuals.

And my wife and I can have separate lists and recommendations on the same account.


----------



## GP Hudson

I was thinking a bit more about the 10% requirement. If someone buys a book and the beginning is a little slow, they'll likely wade through it in hopes that it will pick up because they paid for the book.

Now with a subscription model what motivation is there to keep reading? None. So if your books do not hook the reader right away they won't make it to 10% and you won't get paid.


----------



## adanlerma

Koko said:


> I was thinking a bit more about the 10% requirement. If someone buys a book and the beginning is a little slow, they'll likely wade through it in hopes that it will pick up because they paid for the book.
> 
> Now with a subscription model what motivation is there to keep reading? None. So if your books do not hook the reader right away they won't make it to 10% and you won't get paid.


Koko, the inverse (converse?) for me anyway, has been that unless the book is really not for me, chances are, when the mood strikes me, I'll take another peek into that book, and see if I've changed my mind (diff mood, etc). I've done this with quite a few books on Scribd and Oyster. Only a bare few were either left off w/out hitting the 10% (which pays out as a browse), or dropped a little further in the book.

But, that's me. I imagine it can also work just as you describe.

All part of having a work avail for many folk, I think.


----------



## GP Hudson

adanlerma said:


> Koko, the inverse (converse?) for me anyway, has been that unless the book is really not for me, chances are, when the mood strikes me, I'll take another peek into that book, and see if I've changed my mind (diff mood, etc). I've done this with quite a few books on Scribd and Oyster. Only a bare few were either left off w/out hitting the 10% (which pays out as a browse), or dropped a little further in the book.
> 
> But, that's me. I imagine it can also work just as you describe.
> 
> All part of having a work avail for many folk, I think.


Yeah I was just reading a craft book where the author was talking about strong openings. He was talking in terms of agents and editors and how busy they are and how important it was to grab them early to have a chance of them reading further. It made me think of the 10% requirement and how it can be an artificial slush pile.

If you are not getting paid because readers are not hooked before that 10% mark you will likely eventually be weeded out. Not to mention the algorithms that will be built in to make the books where people read past the 10% mark more discoverable.

Hooking a reader early has always been important, but I think with KU it is going to become a lot more important.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Koko said:


> Now with a subscription model what motivation is there to keep reading? None. So if your books do not hook the reader right away they won't make it to 10% and you won't get paid.


I do this already by downloading the sample of a book before buying. The sample is approximately 10% of the book (though a lot of books have a bunch of wasted-space front matter, so you don't always get 10% of the prose). If the sample doesn't grab me, I don't buy the book. There are far too many books to try out to waste time on one that might get better.


----------



## wtvr

After sleeping on it, I'm still thoroughly enthused about this. I understand all the posts of concern, but for us noobs it's as though you all were already boarded on the giant cruise ship "Amazonia," and we were running along the dock with manuscripts spilling out of our luggage yelling, "Wait up! Come on, guys!"

But wait! New the new cruise ship "Unlimited" just docked! ALL ABOARD!


----------



## adanlerma

LisaGloria said:


> After sleeping on it, I'm still thoroughly enthused about this. I understand all the posts of concern, but for us noobs it's as though you all were already boarded on the giant cruise ship "Amazonia," and we were running along the dock with manuscripts spilling out of our luggage yelling, "Wait up! Come on, guys!"
> 
> But wait! New the new cruise ship "Unlimited" just docked! ALL ABOARD!


  Based on my experience, as a reader and writer, on Scribd and Oyster, I feel "can" be a good thing, definitely


----------



## Ann in Arlington

adanlerma said:


> Ann, with Scribd (and not trying to chg your mind) one can also read online direct. Also a tablet is not required, one can use a smart phone, or any computer, even the Kindle Fire (I use all of those).


Oh, yeah. I know all that. I was using 'tablet' in the generic sense -- could include apple, android (including Fire), windows. I have Fires, a phone, a windows tablet, laptop and desktop based computer. FWIW I can't think of much less satisfying than reading on line while sitting with a laptop or at my desk.  I use the phone rarely -- only when nothing better is available, and I use my Fires occasionally. But, while I could d/l the Scribd app and read books on my Fire, my preferred reading device is my eInk kindle and Scribd titles will NOT work on that. I even signed up for the free six months when they offered it -- I'm willing to try things -- but when I found it wouldn't work on the PW, I've basically done nothing with it because it doesn't work for me.


----------



## Vaalingrade

David Beers said:


> http://www.spotifyartists.com/spotify-explained/
> 
> The reason artists receive so little from Spotify is the way their contracts are negotiated.


So if that's what they got, then a group that don't get to negotiate at all and actively reject the concept of banding together for collective bargaining purposes would get...

Man, we are going to have to _pay_ Amazon each time someone reads our books by this rubric.


----------



## adanlerma

Jim Johnson said:


> I do this already by downloading the sample of a book before buying. The sample is approximately 10% of the book (though a lot of books have a bunch of wasted-space front matter, so you don't always get 10% of the prose). If the sample doesn't grab me, I don't buy the book. There are far too many books to try out to waste time on one that might get better.


Just hasn't been my experience with Scribd and Oyster, Jim. There are so many good books, by so many unknown or relatively known writers, that I have found myself going back to quite a few books that intrigued me within the 10%, but just didn't have time for then.

Scribd lets me place up to 20 (I think) books in my library for access anytime. Right now I have one book open in my iPhone, another in my Kindle app on the same phone, another on my Kindle Fire, and one in my browser (I can see the tab as I type.)

Subscription plans, including hopefully via Amazon, change that do or die approach.

That's why Amazon's ad read : Freedom to Explore.

It's a nice change.


----------



## Vaalingrade

LisaGloria said:


> After sleeping on it, I'm still thoroughly enthused about this. I understand all the posts of concern, but for us noobs it's as though you all were already boarded on the giant cruise ship "Amazonia," and we were running along the dock with manuscripts spilling out of our luggage yelling, "Wait up! Come on, guys!"
> 
> But wait! New the new cruise ship "Unlimited" just docked! ALL ABOARD!


But instead of sailing under whatever name the SS Gimmick is pulling into port with right now, you should take a few short trips on the Cheap Marketing ferry and the Networking With Fellow Authors party yacht first.

Once you're read for the commitment of a cruise, the SS Prudently Diversified is always going to have fewer MSRA outbreaks and backed up sewage lines.


----------



## adanlerma

Ann in Arlington said:


> Oh, yeah. I know all that. I was using 'tablet' in the generic sense -- could include apple, android (including Fire), windows. I have Fires, a phone, a windows tablet, laptop and desktop based computer. FWIW I can't think of much less satisfying than reading on line while sitting with a laptop or at my desk.  I use the phone rarely -- only when nothing better is available, and I use my Fires occasionally. But, while I could d/l the Scribd app and read books on my Fire, my preferred reading device is my eInk kindle and Scribd titles will NOT work on that. I even signed up for the free six months when they offered it -- I'm willing to try things -- but when I found it wouldn't work on the PW, I've basically done nothing with it because it doesn't work for me.


Gotcha, I understand. My wife still prefers, # 1 - a physical book, and # 2 - her second generation b&w Kindle with a little light clipped on it. 

Tell you what I'm dreading, tech wise, is folk reading out in pubic via holograms!

Potentially fun and social, probably intrusive as heck


----------



## wtvr

Vaalingrade said:


> But instead of sailing under whatever name the SS Gimmick is pulling into port with right now, you should take a few short trips on the Cheap Marketing ferry and the Networking With Fellow Authors party yacht first.
> 
> Once you're read for the commitment of a cruise, the SS Prudently Diversified is always going to have fewer MSRA outbreaks and backed up sewage lines.


HA!  Well said, well said. I hear everything you're putting out there. Somebody has to be the canary in the... cruise ship. I volunteer, is all. You make a lot of great points.


----------



## Colin

Vaalingrade said:


> But instead of sailing under whatever name the SS Gimmick is pulling into port with right now, you should take a few short trips on the Cheap Marketing ferry and the Networking With Fellow Authors party yacht first.
> 
> Once you're read for the commitment of a cruise, the SS Prudently Diversified is always going to have fewer MSRA outbreaks and backed up sewage lines.


But don't go overboard.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Thanks. It's just that I was where you are not too long ago. Everything looks awesome and promising and it's full steam ahead until oh god, it's not anything like you thought it would be and now it's taking you months to extricate yourself and reorient toward a better... well not 'more stable' but at least 'less unstable' business model.

Trust me, I lost sooo much time and money by not watching at least a few people who can absorb the damage of a fall take the leap first.


----------



## adanlerma

kward said:


> You may be right about banding together for collective bargaining purposes. I haven't agreed such a thing is necessary for indies in the current climate, but with this KU subscription service I can see the little guys (i.e. us) being left out of the discussion with no voice at the table.
> 
> My problem though with unions is that they are a gatekeeping entity. I self-publish to avoid the know-betters who decide what the public will read and what they won't.
> 
> How do we form a union without it becoming just another body of people telling indie authors they're not worthy because of x y and z? Becoming a union member requires you jump through certain hoops to be accepted and have your rights collectively bargained for - but in terms of us self-publishers how do you do it without becoming the very thing most indies wish to avoid like the plague?
> 
> These are honest questions here - no snark intended - I am genuinely curious about what is and is not possible. Thanks.


Maybe as minimal an entry requirement as possible? Just guessing ideas, but that the person has self-published one title? Period. With proof, like a link to an existing item page on any major site (etailer, subscription service, library, etc)?


----------



## Vaalingrade

kward said:


> My problem though with unions is that they are a gatekeeping entity. I self-publish to avoid the know-betters who decide what the public will read and what they won't.


See here's the awesome thing about unions no one bothers to talk about because they're so anxious to talk about corruption like it's inevitable: You can benefit from on in your industry without being part of it.

Say an Indie Writers' Guild forms tomorrow and implements a 'No kwards allowed' policy because... reasons. Say they then successfully negotiate with Amazon to if not pony up a better fund for KU, then to add Pay What You Want options so people who really like your books can still give you more money if they like you.

Everyone would get them, not just the Guild, assuming the Guild is chartered under the idea of improving contracts for indies.

If you live in America, this is how we ended up with things like overtime pay, lunch breaks, and the new and exotic 'not being locked inside burning buildings' laws and the ones where they couldn't make children crawl into coal seams or run under the decapitating arms of looms to pick up dropped detritus. These weren't things that were freely given, they were forced concessions.

Edit: As for forming a broadly beneficial union, it's all in the charter. If you prohibit accepting terms exclusive to the union and maintain membership purely through internal perks, you limit the major excluding problem by making exclusion a non-injurus issue.


----------



## KZoe

VEVO said:


> Kindle Unlimited will be more like Netflix than Spotify.


I hope not. I think a Netflix-like model would be disastrous for most writers.



VEVO said:


> *Netflix:* maybe 25% of new movies and tv shows that a typical customer is looking for. Which mean that typical customer will be much more likely to buy movies, rent movies, subscribe to Hulu, subscribe to cable TV to supplement their viewings.
> 
> Like the Netflix customer, Kindle Unlimited customer will also buy books because of the many holdouts.


I disagree. DVD sales are down a whopping 28% from last year. The lack of selection on Netflix isn't fueling DVD sales. If anything, it's pushing people to similar services (Hulu, Amazon, cable tv) and piracy. Digital movie/show sales, btw, account for around 10% of entertainment sales. They're on the rise but not filling the gap between DVD sales and streaming.

It's also important to note that Netflix has lost around 2,000 titles just in the last year as contracts with distributors have ended and have not been renewed. Though some of those titles weren't not profitable for NF and they let them go, many titles were not renewed because the distribution deals with distributors/content providers could not be negotiated. It's worrisome when studios/distributors/content providers choose to opt out of a popular service due to financials. What if Amazon started dropping books that weren't performing well for their services? What if Amazon pushed out some 3rd party content providers (authors) in favor of promoting their own imprints as Netflix has done with their original programming?

Maybe Netflix isn't the best example?


----------



## Sapphire

I, for one, have never and will not now pay any entity to negotiate for me. Do I think a group of independents can influence? You better believe it! But no to an organized entity, whether you call it a union or another name.


----------



## Colin

carter.s said:


> ... What if Amazon started dropping books that weren't performing well for their services? What if Amazon pushed out some 3rd party content providers (authors) in favor of promoting their own imprints as Netflix has done with their original programming? ...


Amazon already push ebooks from publishers that they own.

I often check out the publishers of the books offers they send by email - an increasing proportion of them are now from the Amazon stable.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Sapphire said:


> I, for one, have never and will not now pay any entity to negotiate for me. Do I think a group of independents can influence? You better believe it! But no to an organized entity, whether you call it a union or another name.


Somewhere, an Amazon executive is spontaneously doing the cabbage patch and doens't know why...


----------



## adanlerma

Colin said:


> Amazon already push ebooks from publishers that they own.
> 
> I often check out the publishers of the books offers they send by email - an increasing proportion of them are now from the Amazon stable.


I didn't realize it'd gotten that far away from the spread of titles, thanks.


----------



## Colin

adanlerma said:


> I didn't realize it'd gotten that far away from the spread of titles, thanks.


It's getting more so every day. A few self-published/indie authors get a mention, but not as many as a year or so back.


----------



## Quiss

Sapphire said:


> I, for one, have never and will not now pay any entity to negotiate for me. Do I think a group of independents can influence? You better believe it! But no to an organized entity, whether you call it a union or another name.


Ah, those good old pre-Union days...


----------



## Colin

Quiss said:


> Ah, those good old pre-Union days...


Thanks Quiss. You're a mine of information.


----------



## Vaalingrade

If you want it to be non-exclusionary, be there when the charter is written and make sure it's not written.

Also, sorry for the America thing. I meant it in terms of I'm pretty sure other nations managed to invent worker's right without having to strangle them out of the robber barons. We perfected exploitation technology long before we discovered decency sometime in the mid-1960's. It (decency toward the working class) then became lost technology somewhere around 2005.


----------



## dmac

A good model that would benefit both Amazon and authors is to have a window for releases, similar to how movie studios do with theatrical releases and the time before they show up on DVD, cable, Netflix, etc. 

This would allow authors to have their older titles/backlist in front of customers, while still being able to sell their newer titles for listed price. Your fans will not wait 6 months for a book to show up on KU, but you will get a lot of new fans through KU.

Of course, we do not know the details, but this type of model and release window would be very good for all parties, I think.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Crushing your fellow man into a delicious paste that perks up your money sandwiches is universal.

This is why I get so annoyed at people personifying and the empathizing with corporate entities.


----------



## Gone To Croatan

Just a suggestion, but could we maybe cut the politics and get the thread back on topic?


----------



## Colin

Hey! we in the UK invented the robber baron thing;  then we turn our backs for a few (historical) minutes and what do you know...the Americans steal our ideas. Outrageous!


----------



## Incognita

Edward M. Grant said:


> Just a suggestion, but could we maybe cut the politics and get the thread back on topic?


Thank you.



dmac said:


> A good model that would benefit both Amazon and authors is to have a window for releases, similar to how movie studios do with theatrical releases and the time before they show up on DVD, cable, Netflix, etc.
> 
> This would allow authors to have their older titles/backlist in front of customers, while still being able to sell their newer titles for listed price. Your fans will not wait 6 months for a book to show up on KU, but you will get a lot of new fans through KU.
> 
> Of course, we do not know the details, but this type of model and release window would be very good for all parties, I think.


I quite like the sound of that.


----------



## Colin

ChristinePope said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I quite like the sound of that.


Yes. Let's get back to the needless speculation - the facts will surely follow...


----------



## dmac

Colin said:


> Yes. Let's get back to needless speculation until we know all the facts...


That is preferable to injecting one's politics into every discussion, no? Which is not to say you are, as I have not read the entire thread, but it seems there are Kboarders who cannot veer away from politics regardless of the topic.


----------



## Colin

dmac said:


> That is preferable to injecting one's politics into every discussion, no?


I didn't notice that politics were being injected into every discussion.


----------



## dmac

Colin said:


> I didn't notice that politics were being injected into every discussion.


You win.

I am moving on.

Please do likewise.


----------



## Colin

dmac said:


> You win.
> 
> I am moving on.
> 
> Please do likewise.


Please realize that these threads have a life of their own and - like any conversation - sometimes stray from the original subject.

Chill man!


----------



## richard.r.fox

KU could serve as a funnel or breadcrumb for the new hotness. While I don't have much history of sales or a variety of titles to look at, I imagine something like this: 

An author puts the first three novels of their series into KU and keeps the fourth book out, and at full price. Once the fifth book is published, the fourth book slips under the waves and into KU. The KU books slosh about and find new readers, who glom onto the non-KU titles. 

My concerns with KU:
Exclusivitiy-While I didn't get a chance to check, seems books on Scribd/Oyster were available on KU. Can I/we put our work on all three sites simultaneously? 
Rankings-If readers get past the pay threshold, how would it affect rankings? Does it count as a sale?


----------



## Vaalingrade

Yeah, if we can't talk about all possible responses if this thing goes all Spotify on us, then what good is even talking about it at all.

Hey it's a new thing. Let's not react in any way at all.


----------



## adanlerma

richard.r.fox said:


> My concerns with KU:
> Exclusivitiy-While I didn't get a chance to check, seems books on Scribd/Oyster were available on KU. Can I/we put our work on all three sites simultaneously?
> Rankings-If readers get past the pay threshold, how would it affect rankings? Does it count as a sale?


Richard, do you remember any of the titles dual listed? Thanks!


----------



## Colin

Vaalingrade said:


> .... Let's not react in any way at all.


No comment.


----------



## Guest

LisaGloria said:


> After sleeping on it, I'm still thoroughly enthused about this.
> But wait! New the new cruise ship "Unlimited" just docked! ALL ABOARD!


I agree with you. Kindle Unlimited is a new library system. The indies, who are making a living now don't want to change the status quo. They are pinching pennies. They don't wanna see what's happening. How many indies have their books in libraries? None! The old library system is keeping us out. On purpose! Who are they to tell millions of library patrons they can not read my books? The ones, who come across them like them. I have practically no returns. If Amazon wants to create a new library system and allows me to put my books in front of tens of millions of former "old library" patrons, why would I say no? Indies could double, triple their incomes with this new library system. For a lot of us it could mean writing full time, instead of having to work other jobs to make ends meet. I want some of that 10 billion dollar Library cake. Let those old library types try and keep us out of their libraries. We will build our own! Kindle Unlimited. Boom times for indies!


----------



## richard.r.fox

adanlerma said:


> Richard, do you remember any of the titles dual listed? Thanks!


I was late to the party and didn't have the chance to check. But with 600k on KU, 500k on Oyster and 400k on Scribdd, I'm sure there's some overlap. There would be a collective "Ah, c'mon!" if Amazon told Indies that KU = Select only, but didn't pass on the same restriction to other publishers.


----------



## JumpingShip

drno said:


> I agree with you. Kindle Unlimited is a new library system. The indies, who are making a living now don't want to change the status quo. They are pinching pennies. They don't wanna see what's happening. How many indies have their books in libraries? None! The old library system is keeping us out. On purpose! Who are they to tell millions of library patrons they can not read my books? The ones, who come across them like them. I have practically no returns. If Amazon wants to create a new library system and allows me to put my books in front of tens of millions of former "old library" patrons, why would I say no? Indies could double, triple their incomes with this new library system. For a lot of us it could mean writing full time, instead of having to work other jobs to make ends meet. I want some of that 10 billion dollar Library cake. Let those old library types try and keep us out of their libraries. We will build our own! Kindle Unlimited. Boom times for indies!


I sure hope this comes true. I have thought of several scenarios--one like yours and another one not so great. (second tier with indies being the equivalent of 'straight to video' movies.). I think I'll try to stay positive and hope yours is the more accurate scenario.  Without any other facts, there's nothing I can do anyway and why worry, right?


----------



## farrago

I just clicked on the link and six of my titles are there. Three are indie, three are not. Is that for real? And the other buzz is that Amazon is in negotiations to buy S & S. Wow!


----------



## adanlerma

farrago said:


> I just clicked on the link and six of my titles are there. Three are indie, three are not. Is that for real? And the other buzz is that Amazon is in negotiations to buy S & S. Wow!


I thought the test sites were gone, do you have that link? Thanks!


----------



## adanlerma

MaryMcDonald said:


> I sure hope this comes true. I have thought of several scenarios--one like yours and another one not so great. (second tier with indies being the equivalent of 'straight to video' movies.). I think I'll try to stay positive and hope yours is the more accurate scenario.  Without any other facts, there's nothing I can do anyway and why worry, right?


It's been working real well on Scribd so far, 60% royalty regardless of price, no exclusivity.


----------



## adanlerma

richard.r.fox said:


> I was late to the party and didn't have the chance to check. But with 600k on KU, 500k on Oyster and 400k on Scribdd, I'm sure there's some overlap. There would be a collective "Ah, c'mon!" if Amazon told Indies that KU = Select only, but didn't pass on the same restriction to other publishers.


That's for sure, thanks Richard.


----------



## Guest

MaryMcDonald said:


> I sure hope this comes true. I think I'll try to stay positive and hope yours is the more accurate scenario.


I'm not the only one saying that with Kindle Unlimited Amazon is building a new library system.

http://www.extremetech.com/internet/186412-amazons-kindle-unlimited-service-could-be-the-digital-library-weve-always-wanted

And as we indies are currently excluded from the old library system, I only see good things happening for us indies. Why would I let Stephen King and James Patterson make millions on the back of the 10 billion dollar a year library system, just because their publishers have bought all the shelf space, like they bought all the shelf space in book stores? They want to keep us indies out of the book shops and out of the libraries. Amazon built a new book store for us. They now want to build a library for us. Boom times for indies!


----------



## 75814

Quiss said:


> Can someone describe how Netflix works in terms of gaining visibility?
> How do the more obscure movies get found? Do people just look for the titles/directors/actors they already know or heard of, or do they use categories or keywords to find new stuff? Do reviews matter there?


Speaking from my own perspective, I never read the reviews on Netflix. Mostly I browse Netflix on my Apple TV or iPad, where the reviews don't appear, so I just look through the sub-categories and recommendations and read the descriptions.



Vaalingrade said:


> See here's the awesome thing about unions no one bothers to talk about because they're so anxious to talk about corruption like it's inevitable: You can benefit from on in your industry without being part of it.
> 
> Say an Indie Writers' Guild forms tomorrow and implements a 'No kwards allowed' policy because... reasons. Say they then successfully negotiate with Amazon to if not pony up a better fund for KU, then to add Pay What You Want options so people who really like your books can still give you more money if they like you.
> 
> Everyone would get them, not just the Guild, assuming the Guild is chartered under the idea of improving contracts for indies.
> 
> If you live in America, this is how we ended up with things like overtime pay, lunch breaks, and the new and exotic 'not being locked inside burning buildings' laws and the ones where they couldn't make children crawl into coal seams or run under the decapitating arms of looms to pick up dropped detritus. These weren't things that were freely given, they were forced concessions.
> 
> Edit: As for forming a broadly beneficial union, it's all in the charter. If you prohibit accepting terms exclusive to the union and maintain membership purely through internal perks, you limit the major excluding problem by making exclusion a non-injurus issue.


I've been completely onboard with the idea of some sort of guild or union for indies ever since you first mentioned it. The more you talk about it, the more convinced I am.



drno said:


> And as we indies are currently excluded from the old library system, I only see good things happening for us indies. Why would I let Stephen King and James Patterson make millions on the back of the 10 billion dollar a year library system, just because their publishers have bought all the shelf space, like they bought all the shelf space in book stores? They want to keep us indies out of the book shops and out of the libraries. Amazon built a new book store for us. They now want to build a library for us. Boom times for indies!


Because Amazon isn't a library. It's a corporation with bottom line profits as the ultimate goal. When you give exclusivity to Amazon, you give them more power over the market. That's power they can use to muscle out the competition. When there's no competition, see how great those boom times are.


----------



## adanlerma

As mentioned below, we need a fully functioning library, one that puts indies on par with other authors in terms of accessibility. And, as also mentioned, inversely, libraries are not corporations.

In regard to the over 20,000 local libraries and communities of readers our work could interface with directly, getting OverDrive, and possibly Baker & Taylor, to not segregate self-published works off the main landing search field page, would be HUGE.

After nearly two months of opting all my titles to libraries via OverDrive through Smashwords, not one single title is discoverable or searchable in my town of Austin.

And as much as I like Scribd and dearly believe in its subscription model, and despite my positive anticipation of an Amazon subscription service that's non-exclusive, neither is a public library. Those are complimentary but different functions.

An indie guild, or union, or loosely structured association, may be the only thing that keeps reading from the control it's been under for a long time.


----------



## Quiss

I think they just pulled all Select titles into KU


----------



## Lisa Grace

I saw this yesterday, but I'm so busy getting a book up and out, I haven't really thought much about it yet, as to whether it will hurt or help me. I have books in Select, and I have the majority that are not, so I'm not sure how I feel. I guess it depends on how many of their customers take them up on it, and how many borrows I get. 
I can't see myself enrolling more than one or two of my books in Select, as I like being available more places than just Amazon.


----------



## wtvr

Quiss said:


> I think they just pulled all Select titles into KU


Sorry, I should have said I only had 1 in there yesterday when I checked, even though I had other Select titles. Now they are all there, along with my author pages. Not sure what it means, just that the page is active and changing.


----------



## dmac

Quiss said:


> I think they just pulled all Select titles into KU


I think that is what happened. I have two titles that are not in Select and they are not on the list, but all the Select titles are. I do not suppose it means much since it is not live. Perhaps they are just looking for titles to populate the list during their test, and something in the agreement allows them to use our titles as guinea pigs.


----------



## Andie

All of my Select titles are on there, too. Including erotica titles.


----------



## MJWare

*It's Baackk!*
https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b/ref=ARRAY%280xa6e16ea0%29?_encoding=UTF8&ie=UTF8&node=9578129011&pfShowFeatures=&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb

Just went to check my ranking before heading off to bed. I'm guessing the turned it live at midnight (PST). It will be interesting to see if it's still here tomorrow morning!


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

All my titles are there and I'm fine with it. Until I have a reason, I'm not going to complain. As a reader? I'm totally signing up for it. I read 3-5 books a week. It won't stop me from buying other books. It might introduce me to things I wouldn't have necessary read before, though.


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

MJAWare said:


> *It's Baackk!*
> https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b/ref=ARRAY%280xa6e16ea0%29?_encoding=UTF8&ie=UTF8&node=9578129011&pfShowFeatures=&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb
> 
> Just went to check my ranking before heading off to bed. I'm guessing the turned it live at midnight (PST). It will be interesting to see if it's still here tomorrow morning!


Was it the whole thing? I only get the search function. Don't tell me they've made the KU propaganda US only? Poot!


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

drno said:


> I'm not the only one saying that with Kindle Unlimited Amazon is building a new library system.
> 
> http://www.extremetech.com/internet/186412-amazons-kindle-unlimited-service-could-be-the-digital-library-weve-always-wanted
> 
> And as we indies are currently excluded from the old library system, I only see good things happening for us indies. Why would I let Stephen King and James Patterson make millions on the back of the 10 billion dollar a year library system, just because their publishers have bought all the shelf space, like they bought all the shelf space in book stores? They want to keep us indies out of the book shops and out of the libraries. Amazon built a new book store for us. They now want to build a library for us. Boom times for indies!


A library system would be good, but this "seems" to be a library system only for Select books, which means it isn't one... a library I mean.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Oh, I honestly believe that it's only going to be for Select authors and big time sellers. I think Amazon wants to get as many people in Select as possible. I'm still in Select (I love the money too much to break away right now). The indie publishing world is interesting. Nook looks like it is on the verge of collapse and Apple is a competitor -- but a small one (despite the name). I will be intrigued to see where this goes. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I honestly believe it's going to be more money in my pocket. I see it going like Select does now, for the most part. Instead of one borrow a month, though, there will be no limit. Amazon isn't going to let someone download 600 titles in a month and then opt out. Instead, you're going to be able to borrow a book. Finish it. And then immediately go to another book and borrow that. It will take a while to build up the readers. I'm kind of excited. I already border on four figures a month for borrows. I think this can only help someone like me. For those who don't go through Select, it will be even more interesting. I'm interested in seeing how things go for them. I'm not making any decisions about my titles until I see some anecdotal evidence either way.


----------



## tknite

MJAWare said:


> *It's Baackk!*
> https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b/ref=ARRAY%280xa6e16ea0%29?_encoding=UTF8&ie=UTF8&node=9578129011&pfShowFeatures=&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb
> 
> Just went to check my ranking before heading off to bed. I'm guessing the turned it live at midnight (PST). It will be interesting to see if it's still here tomorrow morning!


And it appears to be working. I just signed up for my free trial and borrowed a book.

I guess tomorrow we'll see the rush to figure out what the royalties are.


----------



## Jash

Select FAQ said:


> Can I enroll my book in KDP Select without participating in Kindle Unlimited and the Kindle Owners' Lending Library or vice-versa?
> 
> No. *Only books enrolled in KDP Select are eligible to be included in Kindle Unlimited* and the Kindle Owners' Lending Library. *All KDP Select-enrolled books with US rights will be automatically included in Kindle Unlimited* and the Kindle Owners' Lending Library.


(c&P from FAQ, bold is mine)


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

I signed up for the free trial and it did let me order two books right away. That's a little disheartening.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

The line on my graph that used to read "borrows" now reads KU/KOLL units. Just FYI. Anyone not in Select have a new line on their graph? I'm just curious.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Here is the "agreement" for signing up: Kindle Unlimited Terms of Use

Last updated July 18, 2014

Welcome to the terms of use (“Terms”) for Kindle Unlimited. These Terms are between you and Amazon Digital Services, Inc. and/or its affiliates (“Amazon.com”, “We” or “Us”) and govern our respective rights and obligations. Please note that your use of the Amazon.com website and your Kindle Unlimited membership are also governed by the agreements listed and linked to below, as well as all other applicable terms, conditions, limitations, and requirements on the Amazon.com website, all of which (as changed over time) are incorporated into these Terms. If you sign up for a Kindle Unlimited membership, you accept these terms, conditions, limitations and requirements.

Amazon.com Conditions of Use
Amazon.com Privacy Notice
Kindle Store Terms of Use
Audible Service Conditions of Use
The Program

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## Scottish Lass

I've only read the first few and last few pages of this thread, so please forgive me if this has already been answered - but, am I right in thinking that, as _authors_, Amazon hasn't communicated directly with us about this (yet)?

My books are in Select, and when I click the link I see them in the 'recommended for you' section with 'Kindle Unlimited' above them, so they're obviously in it.

It would be nice to know what the payment to us would be; tho' the fact that the KU/KOLL borrows are lumped together in the Reports makes me suspect it will be the same payment for all?

Also, as a Brit, I can't find anything about KU on the UK site, but my UK month-to-date report has the same KU/KOLL heading (as do DE etc) so do you think that means it'll be coming out over here? As a _reader_, I think I'd be interested - I used to use the local Library a lot until I got into eBooks and started working from home (so I'm not near the library v often).


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## Julia Kavan

Apologies if someone has already posted this - the KDP Terms of Service have changed to include Kindle Unlimited:

"*2.3 KDP Select Fund.* We will establish a fund on a monthly basis and you will be eligible to earn a share of that fund for each of your Digital Books included in the Kindle Unlimited and Kindle Owners' Lending Library Programs. You will earn a share of the monthly fund, calculated as the number of qualified reads of your Digital Book through Kindle Unlimited plus the number of qualified borrows through the Kindle Owners' Lending Library as a percentage of the number of total qualified reads and borrows of all KDP Digital Books. This share is your total Royalty for customer access to your Digital Book through the Kindle Unlimited and Kindle Owners' Lending Library Programs. For example, if the fund for a particular month is $1,000,000, your Digital Book has 1,000 qualified reads through Kindle Unlimited, 500 qualified borrows through the Kindle Owners' Lending Library, and there are 300,000 total qualified reads and borrows for all participating Digital Books in that month, your Digital Book will earn $5,000 ($1,000,000 x 1,500/300,000 = $5,000). We will determine in our sole discretion the criteria for determining which customer events qualify for this calculation. A maximum of one event per customer account will qualify for each Digital Book. We may publically announce the top Digital Books, including the author, publisher, number of qualified reads and borrows, and KDP Select fund royalties earned."


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## CristinaRayne

yodaoneforme said:


> The line on my graph that used to read "borrows" now reads KU/KOLL units. Just FYI. Anyone not in Select have a new line on their graph? I'm just curious.


I'm not in Select and my graph has the KU/KOLL units line, too. I sell well on other channels so there's no way I'm going to pull my books and enter them into Select, but as it's looking like this is going to be a Select-only deal, I'm kind of miffed.


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## LovelyDesignStudio

yodaoneforme said:


> All my titles are there and I'm fine with it. Until I have a reason, I'm not going to complain. As a reader? I'm totally signing up for it. I read 3-5 books a week. It won't stop me from buying other books. It might introduce me to things I wouldn't have necessary read before, though.


Yes it's back and I'm very excited. I just signed up for the 30 day free trial. Sad part is I only have one book in the kindle unlimited. I only have one book in select which is where they pulled my book from, but this is about to change. I'm definitely going to look into the terms and conditions of Kindle Unlimited and write up a plan to write and publish more books for KU over the weekend.


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## LovelyDesignStudio

Just borrowed my first book on my Kindle Fire.   It's an SEO book that I've been dying to read, but I had to keep my choices limited because of the one book borrow per month with Prime. Now that I've started the Kindle Unlimited free trial, it looks to me like everything that was listed as Prime is now listed as Kindle Unlimited. If I could just find the terms and conditions on KU or more information about listing titles....


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## Pamela

Amazon is being very smart.  They have all the big name writers in the program, and they certainly don't require them to be in Select.  And they have all the indie authors who are in Select.  Select authors are automatically excluded from the Scribd or other libraries.  If the program is successful they will be taking business from the competition.

My problem is that you have to be in Select.  That's pretty heavy handed of Amazon.  They don't require the big name writers who sell in many other markets to be in Select.  So Indies are being punished, or at least Amazon's prejudice is showing it's ugly head.  I don't have any books in Select now, so I'll just have to wait and see how it goes.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

Amazon have just put a little blurb about Unlimited on our Bookshelf, which gives the option to get out of select early if you don't want to participate in the new program.



> Kindle Unlimited is a subscription service currently available to customers in the U.S. With Kindle Unlimited, customers can read as many books as they like and keep them as long as they want for a monthly subscription fee. Any customer can subscribe to Kindle Unlimited. They don't need to be Amazon Prime members, they simply need to pay the subscription fee.
> 
> If you have a book enrolled in KDP Select, it will automatically be enrolled in Kindle Unlimited. It will also remain enrolled in the Kindle Owners' Lending Library, which is currently available to Amazon Prime customers in the U.S., UK, Germany, France, and Japan.
> 
> In order to be eligible to be included in Kindle Unlimited you must meet the KDP Select requirements and enroll your book in KDP Select.


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## D-C

Roz Marshall said:


> I've only read the first few and last few pages of this thread, so please forgive me if this has already been answered - but, am I right in thinking that, as _authors_, Amazon hasn't communicated directly with us about this (yet)?
> 
> My books are in Select, and when I click the link I see them in the 'recommended for you' section with 'Kindle Unlimited' above them, so they're obviously in it.
> 
> It would be nice to know what the payment to us would be; tho' the fact that the KU/KOLL borrows are lumped together in the Reports makes me suspect it will be the same payment for all?
> 
> Also, as a Brit, I can't find anything about KU on the UK site, but my UK month-to-date report has the same KU/KOLL heading (as do DE etc) so do you think that means it'll be coming out over here? As a _reader_, I think I'd be interested - I used to use the local Library a lot until I got into eBooks and started working from home (so I'm not near the library v often).


Roz, it's not available for UK customers - yet. And yes, I believe KU & KOLL payments will be the same - until I hear otherwise.


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## LovelyDesignStudio

Pamela said:


> Amazon is being very smart. They have all the big name writers in the program, and they certainly don't require them to be in Select. And they have all the indie authors who are in Select. Select authors are automatically excluded from the Scribd or other libraries. If the program is successful they will be taking business from the competition.
> 
> My problem is that you have to be in Select. That's pretty heavy handed of Amazon. They don't require the big name writers who sell in many other markets to be in Select. So Indies are being punished, or at least Amazon's prejudice is showing it's ugly head. I don't have any books in Select now, so I'll just have to wait and see how it goes.


Exclusivity remains the same as Kindle Select. bummer :-(


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## Mark E. Cooper

CristinaRayne said:


> I'm not in Select and my graph has the KU/KOLL units line, too. I sell well on other channels so there's no way I'm going to pull my books and enter them into Select, but as it's looking like this is going to be a Select-only deal, I'm kind of miffed.


Don'tbe miffed! You're just being greedy  Select people get KU and we get Scribd and Oyster. That's only fair, right?


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## EC

I haven't read the whole thread - things seem to be moving quickly. 

I'm a UK based author - all my books are in select - I can see KU is only available in the US - so I'll take it my US customers will be able to access my titles via KU on .com? 

I'm asking as I can't see any form of notification against my books on .com - I'm a bit lost.


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## EC

RCasey said:


> Well, I'm disappointed that it's Select exclusive but I can hardly say I'm surprised. Select needed something big to lure people back to it/attract new people, and if Unlimited takes off, it really, really is a big deal.
> 
> I'm not too worried though, not now I've had time to think about it properly. People aren't going to stop buying books. I think it will make having a perma-free/loss leader first book all the more essential for those wanting to catch eyes of readers who aren't in Select, though.
> 
> I'll watch and wait for a few months. A program like this doesn't boom overnight--it grows over time. And over time, I plan to have even more backlist that I can experiment with.
> 
> So... who's going to dip their toes in the water first?


Would you now be shocked if Zon wipe out the free titles in a few months to promote this programme?

After all, free is against Zon T&C


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## EC

RCasey said:


> You know, I was going to put that in the post myself. I do wonder. I hope not, but I suppose we'll see. Interesting times!


It's a definite game-changer. Interesting times.


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## Renata F. Barcelos

Well, I have a new title to publish this month, so I'm now toying with the idea of putting this one on Select and try the new waters. It's a novella that I intended to make perma-free anyway, so...

I don't sell that much in other places, but what gives me the creeps about Select is that I can't even send my own book to reviewers unless I buy it and send as gift. This pisses me off to no end. 

I'll think about it until the release.


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## dmac

It seems like small titles that usually sell for .99 cents may be the real beneficiary here, no?


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## D. Zollicoffer

Will this hurt perma-free books? Not sure why, but downloads of my free book hit an all-time low yesterday.


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## adanlerma

MJAWare said:


> *It's Baackk!*
> https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b/ref=ARRAY%280xa6e16ea0%29?_encoding=UTF8&ie=UTF8&node=9578129011&pfShowFeatures=&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb
> 
> Just went to check my ranking before heading off to bed. I'm guessing the turned it live at midnight (PST). It will be interesting to see if it's still here tomorrow morning!


Link is working this morning. Looks much like how Scribd & Oyster have their landing page set up, looks really good so far. But is it exclusive?


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

D. Zollicoffer said:


> Will this hurt perma-free books? Not sure why, but downloads of my free book hit an all-time low yesterday.


It's only a few hours old, so I don't think it's had an effect yet. Don't forget that people on this board are hyper-sensitive to changes at the mighty Zon. Most of the rest of the world doesn't know it's happened yet.


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## Mark E. Cooper

EC said:


> Would you now be shocked if Zon wipe out the free titles in a few months to promote this programme?
> 
> After all, free is against Zon T&C


I wouldn't be shocked, I would be setting all my freebies to $0.99, or adding a new funnel book to Select, OR both.


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## adanlerma

Pamela said:


> Amazon is being very smart. They have all the big name writers in the program, and they certainly don't require them to be in Select. And they have all the indie authors who are in Select. Select authors are automatically excluded from the Scribd or other libraries. If the program is successful they will be taking business from the competition.
> 
> My problem is that you have to be in Select. That's pretty heavy handed of Amazon. They don't require the big name writers who sell in many other markets to be in Select. So Indies are being punished, or at least Amazon's prejudice is showing it's ugly head. I don't have any books in Select now, so I'll just have to wait and see how it goes.


Yeah, exclusive would be a problem for me, might be ok or great for others.

And "if" there is a favoritism deal going on for name or higher selling authors, or as someone else posted yesterday - less and less indies are being featured in the email promos, then I'm better off being able to be in Scribd and Oyster and OverDrive, not to mention the other big etailers.

But I'm not an all or none person, and when I have my next short ready, I may try it in Select, and see how it does. Quite frankly, and I've never said this before, I've tried Select three times over the last few years, but minimal to terrible results. Now I'll take that as being me, ie, the attractiveness and quality of my work, that's on me.

But if I'm not on a level playing field in terms of being able to sell my work on other platforms (and others are), or how or if I'd ever be promoted, then, for me, that's not good. This becomes too much like what's being complained about the big publishers.

And there will still be hundreds of thousands of folk who won't have access to all the titles that are on Oyster and Scribd and elsewhere. Except, if true, those given special status. It would feel too much like what's being done to self-published titles' discovery to libraries via OverDrive.

I also know, this can change. Amazon may tweak or change its requirements.

Amazon is the best there is for customer service and trust.

It doesn't need exclusivity.


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## N. Gemini Sasson

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> It's only a few hours old, so I don't think it's had an effect yet. Don't forget that people on this board are hyper-sensitive to changes at the mighty Zon. Most of the rest of the world doesn't know it's happened yet.


Jimmy Fallon mentioned it in his monologue last night. He described it as Netflix for books.


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## B&amp;H

Here's the problem as I see it with the business model for authors.

Amazon have set it up as an all you can eat buffet for 9.99 - including audiobooks which has to be a terrible deal for audiobook authors given how much they cost to produce versus ebooks unless Amazon is planning to offer a premium uplift for audiobooks.

So assuming Amazon wants the same cut out of the subscription it takes from books at 30 percent then that leaves 6.99 approx in the kitty for the 'fund'.

If they are running it the same way as KOLL then they divide the total fund by the number of reads that month then you have no way of knowing from one month to the next how much each 'read' is worth to you as an author, and it is fairly obvious it is going to cannibalise your sales of that book since if someone is a subscriber unlike their capped KOLL borrow they have no reason to pay for your books.

Amazon is relying on the 'gym' membership model that the low consumption users effectively subsidise the high consumption users, but since the fund is fixed I don't think that will work out for books on such a low tariff - gym's have fixed costs that have to be paid so it doesn't matter if 10 people or 100 people are using the kit, books however have a cost per unit so every additional read is going to dilute the price per read. 

Given the rate some genre readers get through books they are going to have the best deal on earth here - in my opinion the people who are going to do worse out of this deal are romance writers since their readership is the heaviest consumers, and if there is a huge chunk of books in this then they have very little reason to pay for books outside the scheme. They will easily consume more than 6.99 worth of books in a month so it is definitely going to cost those authors money, but the net effect will hit other authors in less read genres since the 'overconsumption' in romance will dilute the payments to other genre writers who can't make it back on volume since there isn't a big enough readership to support it.

Lets be realistic, the amount of reading time people have is fairly fixed, so this isn't a nil-sum game - reads generated out of KU are going to take sales out of paid.

We could easily see a situation where the volume of reads is so high that the payment falls from the typical rate of a KOLL borrow into 30-50 cents a book - if you have a fund of 6.99 and an average reader goes through a couple of books a week then you are looking at most 70 cents - which effectively means anyone with a sale price greater than 1.99 is going to get hit hard by this. Of course if readers absolutely gorge - they only have to read 10 percent so even abandoned books are going to count as reads and 'dilute' the fund then the figures are going to be even worse. The fact that Amazon haven't put a floor under the price paid per read or given any indication of how much you will earn per read makes me very skeptical this is a good deal for authors.

Of course for new writers trying to build an audience they might want to jump on it thinking it will give them a leg up, but the problem is you are curating an audience from the buffet menu not a la carte, I suspect once you are in you will trap yourself in it, and the more readers consume the less you are going to earn.

Things I can see happening:

Since you get no price benefit for longer works this is a boon for novella writers. You'll get the same borrow price as if you were writing a 250K epic. So why invest time and money in writing longer work for the same return? Novella sales if anything are likely to go up with this because readers no longer have a cost attached to each book and can just grab whatever takes their fancy, since you are only getting 35 cents a read you're likely to make more money through KU than sales, which makes the problem above worse - if you can rip through 6 1 hour novellas in the time of one full length book you are getting 6 times the borrow funds that one full length book writer gets - reducing the per read fund even further.

What amuses me is that if a trad publisher said to authors 'we're going to enrol all your books in a scheme and not tell you how much you will earn per 'sale/read' there would be something approaching a riot in the literary world.

Personally I find the idea of putting my books in a sales channel where I have zero control from one month to the next how much I'm paid per unit consumed is a complete non-starter. 

Readers can consume books much faster than we can write them, all you can eat for 9.99 is less than the cost of 1 NYT bestseller on release. For anyone with books in this scheme if the subscriptions take off it will simply destroy your paid sales, since there is zero reason why anyone would buy your book if they can get it on their subscription.

Only benefits I can see - KU replaces permafree - first in series goes in,rest paid - unfortunately I see a lot of 1 star review potential from disgruntled KU readers who can't get the rest of the series on KU - they paid their subscription so they will expect all your books to be in.

Luckily it is only US at the moment so won't affect my predominately UK sales. But I think subscription services are great for readers, but the people pushing them have the same disregard for authors right to a living wage the trads have. They just seem the benefits to them and their consumers, not their content providers.

Unlike spotify we can't make back income from lost royalties by going on tour and charging 300 USD a ticket and selling T-Shirts, and unlike Netflix we didn't get a 15 USD a ticket cinema run before we went to subs, once our books are read they hold no further value.

I suspect in a few years time we'll look back and remember the glory days where you could actually charge a sales price for a book and get 70 percent. Those who do 10,000 KU borrows a day might have a fighting chance but earning out at 35 cents - 75 cents a reader is going to take a awfully long time.


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## Colin

dmac said:


> It seems like small titles that usually sell for .99 cents may be the real beneficiary here, no?


It might be good for the first book in a series if they decide to end perma-free.


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## Quiss

Josef Black said:


> Lets be realistic, the amount of reading time people have is fairly fixed, so this isn't a nil-sum game - reads generated out of KU are going to take sales out of paid.


THIS



Josef Black said:


> Since you get no price benefit for longer works this is a boon for novella writers.


I wonder if the get-rich-quick crowd will start deluging KU with short stuff pulled together in a big hurry (my apologies for authors of quality novellas) in order to get higher royalties for their 99-centers. This could cause a backlash from readers who will end up seeing KU as a swamp of backlists and poor quality with the odd gem thrown into the mix.

The possible end of permafree is the worst case scenario here.


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## 77071

Exciting!  I will be trying their free trial soon.  Problem is, I'm already on Scribd, and if I like them both that's 19.00 a month--or else I have to pick one!    Scribd doesn't have read aloud features or narration, though.  On the other hand, will they have much in my preferred genre?  

I did a search for KU books in my genre.  Two of my stories showed up on the first couple of pages.  One was a bestseller, the other was one I did a big free run on a bit ago.  They're both pretty visible right now.  I wondered why they were still doing pretty well when some of my newer releases were tanking!

I wonder if this, short term, will be another game changing reason to be KDP exclusive, at least for now.  I seem to get better traction with KDP, and that's important to me right now.  And the surge or borrows from new people checking out the service could be important financially.  Hm.

Guess we'll see what happens.


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## adanlerma

Josef Black said:


> Here's the problem as I see it with the business model for authors...
> 
> Luckily it is only US at the moment so won't affect my predominately UK sales. But I think subscription services are great for readers, but the people pushing them have the same disregard for authors right to a living wage the trads have. They just seem the benefits to them and their consumers, not their content providers.
> 
> Unlike spotify we can't make back income from lost royalties by going on tour and charging 300 USD a ticket and selling T-Shirts, and unlike Netflix we didn't get a 15 USD a ticket cinema run before we went to subs, once our books are read they hold no further value.
> 
> I suspect in a few years time we'll look back and remember the glory days where you could actually charge a sales price for a book and get 70 percent. Those who do 10,000 KU borrows a day might have a fighting chance but earning out at 35 cents - 75 cents a reader is going to take a awfully long time.


Josef, those are really good points.

But...Scribd and Oyster and the new digital lending at libraries (via OverDrive and Baker & Tayler), not to mention the coming of txtr, 24Symbols, and others, means -

It's already happening, just outside Amazon. Amazon is simply responding as necessary.

Hundreds of thousands of folk are already doing subscriptions at the services listed above, and, at least according to articles I've read, growing hugely each month.

The task is, for authors to somehow have enough clout to say, to any service : don't exclude me but let other authors list elsewhere; pay me a fair amount; be transparent - give me the read and views data (ala Scribd).

Hugh Howey and Joe Konrath are right, authors, esp self-published authors, are going to need some sort of unity, even if loosey goosey.

And keeping your rights to your content will be even more important than ever.


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## Navigator

I feel like Zon is shooting themselves in the foot by requiring the books be in Select (or at least for indie authors). But maybe writing a 12-15k word stand alone novella or two specifically for KU could be worth it.


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## Ann in Arlington

Several have suggested putting, say, the first of a series into Select so it can be in KU.

Here's a thought: It seems to me those who sign up for KU will be those who read voraciously. Like, a book a day. If they like your book they're going to want more. BUT, they may also have a limited budget -- which is why the $10 per month price is attractive to them. I'm not certain those folks will go outside KU to find and read your subsequent titles, even if they really _really_ like your book.

I'm contemplating trying it for a month free, as a reader. For sure, I'll be looking for books that are priced higher so I get the most bang for my buck. With KOLL, I generally borrow books that are at least $3.99 or $4.99. That gives me the best deal. KU will work a little differently but I still think I'd be more attracted, for $10 per month, to books priced higher. The ones that are 99 cents, I'll not borrow that way, but buy straight out. If they look good enough. Or I won't because, honestly, I could read for years without ever buying or borrowing another book! 

I've no idea if I'm likely to be typical in this . . . . . I simply offer the observation.

As a reader, I'd definitely like to see more of the 'big names' from big publishers in the program. The bottom line for all readers deciding whether to pony up will be whether or not what THEY want to read is available.


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## dmac

Cryptic Fawn said:


> I feel like Zon is shooting themselves in the foot by requiring the books be in Select (or at least for indie authors). But maybe writing a 12-15k word stand alone novella or two specifically for KU could be worth it.


Serials with cliffhangers could also really benefit. Why not just cut up a 100K novel into 10 parts? Make 10 times as much... Seems like a no-brainer...


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## Guest

Josef Black = Comment of the thread.

What is the benefit for KU to authors who are selling? HOW does this guarantee more income, since it means less money per book bought? In some very real scenarios put forth - WAY LESS MONEY.

Then ask this - What is the benefit for KU to authors who aren't selling? *Where's the visibility* With permafree you at least have the free store. If Amazon are getting rid of free, then that's a storm of visibility driven to the earth.

10 percent read is far more ambiguous than an actual sale. I'm not going near it.


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## Redacted1111

Cryptic Fawn said:


> But maybe writing a 12-15k word stand alone novella or two specifically for KU could be worth it.


That's exactly what I was thinking. I think serials might be very popular under this model, and I'm thinking of starting a new one just to experiment with it.

I just had to sign up for the free trial. As a reader, it's freaking fantastic. I read a lot of beginnings of books that I abandon because I get bored. This way the authors will be getting paid anyway. I like that.


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## dmac

ShaneJeffery said:


> Josef Black = Comment of the thread.
> 
> What is the benefit for KU to authors who are selling? HOW does this guarantee more income, since it means less money per book bought? In some very real scenarios put forth - WAY LESS MONEY.
> 
> Then ask this - What is the benefit for KU to authors who aren't selling? *Where's the visibility* With permafree you at least have the free store. If Amazon are getting rid of free, then that's a storm of visibility driven to the earth.
> 
> 10 percent read is far more ambiguous than an actual sale. I'm not going near it.


I see some really bestselling titles on KU at the moment. A.G. Riddle, Hugh Howey, Suzanne Collins, etc. I will be interested to see if they are still there a day or a week from now.

This really does seem like something authors need to pick and choose very carefully. Longer works do not seem to benefit here. My books are all over 400 pages and sell consistently for $3.99. If I am getting, say, $2 a book instead of my $2.70 because people are no longer buying, I lose .70 cents for every "borrow." Granted, KOLL does much the same thing, but that is limited to only one borrow per month, so it is manageable. This, on the other hand...

I do not know. I will have to wait and see what happens a month from now, perhaps longer.


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## adanlerma

Quiss said:


> The possible end of permafree is the worst case scenario here.


Quiss, I have 6 free titles on my other outlets. On Scribd, a reader doesn't have to have an account to read the free items. They can thus sample both the service and my work. I seem to be getting a nice # of folk to do that.


----------



## JuliMonroe

Sales of the first book in my series have gone way down, though the other two are selling well. I haven't been Select until now, but I've been thinking about doing something different to boost that first book, which is a novella and $.99. Since it's selling even worse on other platforms than on Amazon, I'm not sure pulling it and making it Select for 90 days will hurt it much at all. I know I'd lose the non-Amazon reviews, but there aren't many, so again, not a big deal. In fact, if I did well enough on borrows/Unlimited, it could be a really good thing since I think I'd make more per borrow/qualified read than I'm currently making on purchases.

Any thoughts. Am I missing something obvious, or does this sound like a decent strategy?


----------



## Quiss

adanlerma said:


> Quiss, I have 6 free titles on my other outlets. On Scribd, a reader doesn't have to have an account to read the free items. They can thus sample both the service and my work. I seem to be getting a nice # of folk to do that.


I appreciate your cheerleading for those of us who have a glum view of this, but you're missing a number of points.
Already, two posts above have proven the point about people slamming shorter works into KU. Another has again underlined the very serious issue about visibility. Ann, too, mentions that she'd start off with the big titles. 
So, yeah, losing permafree will hurt a lot of authors. But I think we always knew that it wasn't a long-term strategy.


----------



## Jash

dmac said:


> It seems like small titles that usually sell for .99 cents may be the real beneficiary here, no?


Quite likely. Especially serials. I think erotica could do very well out of it too.


----------



## Scott Reeves

Josef Black said:


> Here's the problem as I see it with the business model for authors.
> 
> Amazon have set it up as an all you can eat buffet for 9.99 - including audiobooks which has to be a terrible deal for audiobook authors given how much they cost to produce versus ebooks unless Amazon is planning to offer a premium uplift for audiobooks.


I don't think the audiobook selection on Unlimited is going to be very large. I actually WANT my audiobooks in Unlimited, but as of this morning, they aren't, even though my ebooks are, and they're whispersynched. I've started digging on how to get audiobooks into the program, and what I'm finding so far is that it appears only a very select few audiobooks are/will be in Unlimited. The only "Books with Narration" seem to be mostly Amazon imprints, like 47Noth and Thomas & Mercer. I don't think they're drawing any audiobooks from ACX as of now.

Here is an exchange I'm currently having with KDP:

Original email:



> Subject: Audiobooks and Unlimited
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have several audiobooks on Audible through ACX, and I've noticed that none of them are available in the new Kindle Unlimited program. All my ebooks are in Select and thus in Unlimited. Is there a way I can opt the associated ACX audiobooks into Unlimited?
> 
> Thanks!


Response from KDP:



> Hello,
> 
> As you're inquiring about your audible content you would need to reach out to the correct team to assist you.
> 
> While Audible.com is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Amazon.com, it operates as an independent site.
> 
> If you have an existing audiobook in Audible's store, you can reach an Audible.com customer service representative via phone or email by visiting their website:
> 
> http://audible.custhelp.com/
> 
> If you do not yet have an audiobook version of your book and want to learn more, check out the Audiobook Creation Exchange (ACX) website here:
> 
> http://www.acx.com/
> 
> I hope this helps. Thank you for publishing with Amazon KDP.


My response:



> Hi,
> 
> Actually, I'm sort of not inquiring about Audible content. I'm inquiring about an aspect of the Kindle Unlimited program, namely the Kindle Unlimited with narration. Where does the narrated audiobook portion of certain Unlimited ebooks come from, if not from Audible or ACX?
> 
> Any information is appreciated.


I'll let you know when I get a response.

But my guess is, very few audiobooks are going to be available through Unlimited. Either that or they're still working out the royalty details. But for those worried about their ACX audiobooks getting shafted on royalties - I don't think there is anything to worry about.


----------



## dmac

Well here is something interesting. I still have a couple of books in Select, the others having expired (and I chose not to renew), and just now, at 8:00 a.m. my time, the two remaining books have already netted 10 KOLL/KU. I usually average 20-25 for the day. It is very rare for sales/borrows this early in the States, so I can only assume this is the KU effect...only 8 hours in...


----------



## B.A. Spangler

This may have already been covered here, but I wonder if having a title in KU will impact eligibility for promotions on sites like BookBub.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

dmac said:


> Serials with cliffhangers could also really benefit. Why not just cut up a 100K novel into 10 parts? Make 10 times as much... Seems like a no-brainer...


This is VERY insightful. Proper serials basked briefly in the limelight but then readers stopped buying them and bought box sets or full seasons instead. The SPP guys have mentioned it more than once how readers now wait to buy the full season.

BUT... KU is going to revive the original intention of the serial beyond any doubt. Take the full season out of Select but keep ALL individual episodes in=PROFIT


----------



## jamielakenovels

Here's the official announcement about Kindle Unlimited, if you haven't read it already: http://lunch.publishersmarketplace.com/2014/07/kindle-unlimited-officially-launches/

and here's the press release from Amazon: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=176060&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1948786&highlight=

Kindle Unlimited Officially Launches; KDP Select Authors to Share Another $800,000 for July

by SARAH WEINMAN on JULY 18, 2014 in ENEWS
Amazon officially announced and made live its Kindle Unlimited subscription program, which was previewed earlier this week and which we have written about extensively already. Notably, the announcement does not specify which publishers have opted in by specific agreement (as opposed to having Amazon include some of their books without direct consent; we already reported on the example of Scholastic's Hunger Games series). Like competing services, Amazon is offering a 30-day trial period (which will likely be a more expensive promotion for Amazon than their smaller competitors. A KU subscription also includes up to three free months of an Audible subscription. Participants can "keep up to ten books at a time and there are no due dates."

Amazon updated their official KDP Select terms as well. Per our previous reporting and inferences, KDP Select authors (the ones who grant Amazon exclusives on their ebooks) have been included automatically -- also without telling (or asking) authors ahead of time: "All books enrolled in KDP Select with U.S. rights will be automatically included in Kindle Unlimited." So the vast majority of the "over 600,000 books" in the program are the more than 500,000 KDP Select titles.

Self-published authors must join KDP Select to participate, and they will be paid the same way they are compensated for Kindle Owners Lending Library "borrows": Everyone gets a pro-rated share of a monthly pool of cash, set at Amazon's sole discretion. For now, Amazon has increased the July pool from $1.2 million to $2 million. While for now Amazon counts a "qualified read" for KDP authors as the first time someone reads more than 10 percent of a title, the posted terms say that Amazon can change their minds at any time: "We will determine in our sole discretion the criteria for determining which customer events qualify for this calculation."


----------



## Guest

Mark E. Cooper said:


> BUT... KU is going to revive the original intention of the serial beyond any doubt. Take the full season out of Select but keep ALL individual episodes in=PROFIT


Doesn't this violate the exclusivity of Select? It was my understanding that works in Select cannot appear in full in digital format ANYWHERE, including in other collections. I'm had all sorts of problems with authors who expected me to pull back issues of the Quarterly off the market so they could put the stories in Select, specifically because they were told by Amazon that if the story was already available digitally anywhere, it can't be considered exclusive.


----------



## dmac

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Doesn't this violate the exclusivity of Select? It was my understanding that works in Select cannot appear in full in digital format ANYWHERE, including in other collections. I'm had all sorts of problems with authors who expected me to pull back issues of the Quarterly off the market so they could put the stories in Select, specifically because they were told by Amazon that if the story was already available digitally anywhere, it can't be considered exclusive.


Is this not how those massive box sets are, though? A lot of those titles are available for free elsewhere, but bundled together in one big box set in Select?


----------



## abstract

Roz Marshall said:


> Also, as a Brit, I can't find anything about KU on the UK site, but my UK month-to-date report has the same KU/KOLL heading (as do DE etc) so do you think that means it'll be coming out over here?


In France, media are saying that it will be available on Amazon FR in September or October (right at the time of the Rentrée, the start of the new publishing season in litterary fiction, that should be fun). So my guess is it should be available in the other Amazon sites too (or they do it for France only, just to thumb their nose at the government and their law prohibiting free shipping  ).


----------



## C. Gockel

> Doesn't this violate the exclusivity of Select? It was my understanding that works in Select cannot appear in full in digital format ANYWHERE, including in other collections.


It does violate the terms of Select.

I'm still waiting to see how this shakes out and how it will affect my business. Amazon might change some of the terms of select to make Unlimited more attractive to authors (and therefore readers).


----------



## Avis Black

I've put a few titles in as an experiment, but frankly, I still think the math is on Scribd's side.  Potential English-speaking readers world-wide total over a billion.  Scribd already offers subscriptions to that audience.  Amazon's potential readership is more limited.  Also, Scribd and Oyster are paying 60 percent of the cover price, and Amazon looks like they're trying to keep the payouts what you'd get for KDP, which is around 2 dollars per title no matter what the cover price or length.  Your 9.99 dollar title will give you the pay of your 2.99 title.

I could see rotating titles back and forth between the various subscription services every few months to make sure you cover your entire potential audience.  

I also suspect that certain genres may become more popular on one subscription service than another.  If, for example, science fiction writers realize they're being read more on Scribd, they may concentrate over there in a block that ends up luring more and more SF readers away from Amazon's service because readers would have to go to Scribd to find the good stuff.  A 'block' of good authors in one genre all posting on just one subscription site wields real power.  I'd suspect authors would head for where the better payment is, once they do the math and experiment a bit with the various sites.  If Amazon's maximum payout is still just 2 dollars, Scribd and Oyster would gain writers who'd like to see a bit more money than that for their titles.


----------



## jamielakenovels

Eventually if Kindle Unlimited takes off (and it will) then they'll roll it as part of Kindle Prime for an additional $5-10/month.  Then I hope they increase the money pool because imagine if 100,000 authors are trying to get a piece of $2million.  What about people like HM Ward who make that much probably a month and if all their fans switch to Kindle Unlimited, won't that affect her paycheck?

Since you get paid if someone reads just 10% of the book then won't shady authors just download each other's books (or have autobot accounts do it), "read" 10% of the book and then get paid?

If it takes off won't the other eBook outlets be forced to create an unlimited program of their own? And how will this affect book stores when someone can get eBooks for next to nothing will they have incentives to buy paper books?

How long before the Big 5 who are not willing participants yet be pressured to be part of the program when people prefer to just use Kindle Unlimited rather than "pay" for books?

When will Amazon get Stephen King and the other brand name authors to write exclusives for Kindle Unlimited?

I think it can be a great opportunity, but it raises a lot of questions. I'm excited to see how this turns out.


----------



## Scott Reeves

Following up a previous post, here is the reply I received from KDP regarding audiobooks and Unlimited, in case anyone is interested:



> I understand you have the audio edition of several of your books submitted through ACX and would like to have them enrolled in Kindle Unlimited, I'll be glad to explain this to you.
> 
> In such case, I'd like to kindly highlight that Kindle Unlimited is currently available only for eBooks, published either through Kindle Direct Publishing and enrolled in KDP Select, or other platforms that have decided to become part of the program. If the Kindle title has a paperback or an audio edition, these two versions wouldn't be included in Unlimited, for Unlimited is for Kindle eBooks only.
> 
> If your customers wanted to get your book through unlimited, they may absolutely do so if it's enrolled in Select and if they're subscribed to the Unlimited program! Even so, to get another edition such as a paperback or an audio version, they would have to purchase it separately as the royalties are distributed on different platforms, and they may later synchronize the audio edition with the digital one.
> 
> Currently on KDP we don't have much information about how Audible, ACX or other Audiobook platforms work, so I won't be able to give you much detail on that, and that's why gently recommend you to contact either Audible or ACX. Still, when it comes to Kindle books, you can be sure your titles will be part of the Unlimited program while they are enrolled in Select as this library subscription has been designed exclusively for Kindle publishers.
> 
> I hope this information helps clarify your questions a bit better! Please remember you can always count on us by either replying to this e-mail, or visiting our Contact Us page as you just did!
> 
> Thanks for being part of KDP!


----------



## ricola

Saying that this is good for authors because it brings "exposure" is like saying that piracy is good for authors because it brings "exposure."

NOW do those of you who are still sensible have some idea of why I'm rooting for Hachette?

This will gut the incomes of independent authors if it works.  If you participate voluntarily, you're joining in on cutting your own throat.


----------



## dmac

VMた said:


> Saying that this is good for authors because it brings "exposure" is like saying that piracy is good for authors because it brings "exposure."
> 
> NOW do those of you who are still sensible have some idea of why I'm rooting for Hachette?
> 
> This will gut the incomes of independent authors if it works. If you participate voluntarily, you're joining in on cutting your own throat.


There is a gaping hole in your logic -- pirates will pay you *nothing*. KU will at least pay you *something*.


----------



## Quiss

lacymarankevinmichael said:


> My general take is the borrow figure will go down from $2/borrow to maybe 50 cents or $1/borrow, but you'll get 2 or 3 times as many borrows in any given month.


How is this a good thing? Where are those readers going to come from?
People are talking as if KU will magically generate hundreds of thousands of new readers. 
A number of existing readers will borrow more than they buy, and that will come at the cost, to authors, of losing revenue on paid books. So instead of 70% on $3.99, you get 50 cents. Congratulations. There is no guarantee that readers will even find your KU title so you'll get those 2 or 3 times as many borrows.


----------



## Avis Black

VMた said:


> Saying that this is good for authors because it brings "exposure" is like saying that piracy is good for authors because it brings "exposure."
> 
> NOW do those of you who are still sensible have some idea of why I'm rooting for Hachette?
> 
> This will gut the incomes of independent authors if it works. If you participate voluntarily, you're joining in on cutting your own throat.


Scribd and Oyster are paying 60 percent of the cover price. Hachette doesn't pay any of its authors that good a royalty. And for Harlequin writers, the latter being part of a Hachette subsidiary, even Amazon's 2 dollar royalty may be a better deal than what Harlequin pays (or not pays, depending on all those thievish clauses in their contracts).


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Doesn't this violate the exclusivity of Select? It was my understanding that works in Select cannot appear in full in digital format ANYWHERE, including in other collections. I'm had all sorts of problems with authors who expected me to pull back issues of the Quarterly off the market so they could put the stories in Select, specifically because they were told by Amazon that if the story was already available digitally anywhere, it can't be considered exclusive.


I meant withdraw the full season entirely. Send it back to draft.


----------



## Jash

dmac said:


> There is a gaping hole in your logic -- pirates will pay you *nothing*. KU will at least pay you *something*.


There is no logic in the post you're quoting. It's three overly dramatic (and slightly obnoxious with the whole "sensible" bit) soundbites one of which makes no sense, one of which is completely irrelevant and one which is a hyperbolic prediction that isn't backed up by... anything really.


----------



## adanlerma

JuliMonroe said:


> Sales of the first book in my series have gone way down, though the other two are selling well. I haven't been Select until now, but I've been thinking about doing something different to boost that first book, which is a novella and $.99. Since it's selling even worse on other platforms than on Amazon, I'm not sure pulling it and making it Select for 90 days will hurt it much at all. I know I'd lose the non-Amazon reviews, but there aren't many, so again, not a big deal. In fact, if I did well enough on borrows/Unlimited, it could be a really good thing since I think I'd make more per borrow/qualified read than I'm currently making on purchases.
> 
> Any thoughts. Am I missing something obvious, or does this sound like a decent strategy?


Juli, I'd say it's a crap shoot and follow your gut.

Because you could put that first novella free, including on Scribd and Oyster, and "possibly" get a lot of new people to see your work beyond the number subscribed on KU, and they'd have access to your follow-on work, on those subscription programs and other outlets.

Plus folk can read any free-priced titles without an account on Scribd, a big plus.

Or, you could experiment, it's only 90 days, and see what happens.

I'm not moving any of my work right now, but am thinking of putting a new short I'm finishing in KU, just to see what happens


----------



## Lefevre

NEW YORK (AP) - Amazon is rolling out a new subscription service that will allow unlimited access to thousands of electronic books and audiobooks for $9.99 a month in the online giant's latest effort to expand its services to attract more users.

The company said Friday that the Kindle Unlimited service will give users the ability to read as much as they want from more than 600,000 Kindle titles such as "The Hunger Games" and "Diary of a Wimpy Kid." They can also listen as much as they want to thousands of Audible audiobooks, including "Water for Elephants."

About 2,000 audiobooks from Audible with Whispersync for Voice, which lets users switch between reading and listening to books, will be available through the service. Subscribers will get a free three-month membership to the broader Audible service, which has 150,000 titles.

Amazon is offering a free 30-day trial to entice users to try the service. The move is a switch from Amazon's latest efforts, which have all been about adding services to its Prime loyalty program. The company has recently launched a video streaming box and grocery delivery service, unveiled plans for a smartphone and expanded its Sunday delivery service, all for members of Prime. But Kindle Unlimited is for anyone with a Kindle device or app who wants to subscribe.

The move comes at an uneasy time for Amazon and its relationship with publishers, because it has been in a public squabble with Hachette over e-book prices. The terms that Amazon worked out with the publishers who are part of Kindle Unlimited was not disclosed.

Seattle-based Amazon is not the first company to offer a "Netflix for books"-style monthly service: Scribd offers a service for $8.99 a month for access to 400,000 books. Oyster offers 500,000 books for $9.95 a month. Both services offer HarperCollins books, among other publishers.

But Amazon is the biggest company to roll out the service and has the advantage of having a dedicated base of users through its Kindle devices and Kindle app, which runs on most wireless devices.

A Kindle Unlimited logo will be attached to eligible titles. The subscription service is available beginning Friday and is accessible via Kindle devices or with Amazon's free Kindle reading apps.

The Associated Press.


----------



## adanlerma

Quiss said:


> I appreciate your cheerleading for those of us who have a glum view of this, but you're missing a number of points.
> Already, two posts above have proven the point about people slamming shorter works into KU. Another has again underlined the very serious issue about visibility. Ann, too, mentions that she'd start off with the big titles.
> So, yeah, losing permafree will hurt a lot of authors. But I think we always knew that it wasn't a long-term strategy.


Good points  And I'd say visibility is the biggy, at least for me.

I was gonna reply to you about how you might read in a subscription program. Even way before I could enroll in either Scribd or Oyster as a reader, my wife and I had looked forward to them because of how much we liked how Netflix worked for us. I think I started on both platforms as a reader either end of last year or very first of this year. I also got to be in a beta FB group for Scribd to give feedback on "whatever."

What I've found so far is, my reading has increased, and it's more relaxed. I really no longer even worry if the title is higher priced or not, short or long or mid-size. If it's a one hour short read and I want to read it, I do. If it's a 700 page thriller and I want to start it, take my time or blast through as I want, I do.

It's a good deal, really a great deal, as you say, for readers 

Also, I have access to, as per what Smashwords and data shows, lots of best sellers that are not exclusive with Select, and thus not available on KU, but are on Scribd and Oyster.

But I plan to try out the new KU program, as a reader. I like comparing.

Big fun titles, like from Michael Crichton, I see are on both.

It'll be fun, for a few months, to see the differences.


----------



## Redacted1111

I find this very interesting to watch. Who knows what will happen. I'm not panicked about it at all, but I just think it's a game changer. We each have to decide how we will address it. Being a person who likes change, I'm looking at it with optimism. Maybe it will be a game changer in my favor. I can only hope and do my best to adapt.


----------



## adanlerma

dmac said:


> Well here is something interesting. I still have a couple of books in Select, the others having expired (and I chose not to renew), and just now, at 8:00 a.m. my time, the two remaining books have already netted 10 KOLL/KU. I usually average 20-25 for the day. It is very rare for sales/borrows this early in the States, so I can only assume this is the KU effect...only 8 hours in...


Keep updating us if you can, this is very good useful info, thanks!


----------



## Usedtoposthere

I've got six books in the first six pages in Contemp Romance, one each on pages 1 & 2, so that should be a pretty good test of how well it works given a fair bit of visibility. Those books are in Select through end of August, and I've thought of going wide with distribution on that series, so--got about a month and a half to see if I want to do that, or if the combined KU/KOLL will convince me otherwise! 

What I'm particularly interested to see is whether it will reduce or increase my overall revenue. I'm mostly at $3.99, so a $2 borrow (and who knows whether that's where it will stay) is less revenue than a sale, but not too far off. If it provides more visibility and makes me look like I ought to be rubbing shoulders with the folks on those pages (Hi, Bella! Uh, hi! It's me! You know, me! Oh, well. Anyway. Bye.), that's all good.


----------



## B&amp;H

adanlerma said:


> Josef, those are really good points.
> 
> But...Scribd and Oyster and the new digital lending at libraries (via OverDrive and Baker & Tayler), not to mention the coming of txtr, 24Symbols, and others, means -
> 
> It's already happening, just outside Amazon. Amazon is simply responding as necessary.
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of folk are already doing subscriptions at the services listed above, and, at least according to articles I've read, growing hugely each month.
> 
> The task is, for authors to somehow have enough clout to say, to any service : don't exclude me but let other authors list elsewhere; pay me a fair amount; be transparent - give me the read and views data (ala Scribd).
> 
> Hugh Howey and Joe Konrath are right, authors, esp self-published authors, are going to need some sort of unity, even if loosey goosey.
> 
> And keeping your rights to your content will be even more important than ever.


I agree Amazon have had their hand forced for sure, they were making decent bank from kindle as it was and KOLL was a good enough driver for Prime which was their main interest.

I don't think you can compare Oyster, Scribd and unlimited to the public library system (which i fully support, my childhood reading was all thanks to the local library). The library system provides an essential taxpayer funded service to improve the literacy and education of the population and offers access to people regardless of their income.

The difference is that Scribd et al are in this for a profit, not public service. Like all silicon valley funded businesses they are using investor capital to run at a lost to sew up a big a market as possible with a view then to cashing in with a big IPO/Sale or income stream. I've got no problem with a model that basically pays authors a standard wholesale price for each book 'rented' - these aren't public service charities they are in it for a profit, I don't see why I have to subsidise them to make a killing on their IPO share values. If they want to profit from our work they should pay a fair market price for it.

Alas what is typical of silicon valley thinking is books become 'units', they don't care about our ability to make a living wage or a sustainable income that allows us to continue to provide quality content. They just want X units and they will cut our throats to ensure they get the business model that gives them the best market advantage.

Is it inevitable that this is the future of book retailing? Probably. There was a big guardian article that basically said that it is the baby boomer generation that are propping up paid book sales and the paper market, once we get to generation Y (spotify era) then the price of digital content will trend to zero. They laughably suggest that our future is the same as the web's - getting 4 cents per 1000 reads in advertising revenue.

As someone has now posted, Amazon will 'determine' how big the pool it sets for KU is at its own discretion. This isn't them saying we'll pay you wholesale price for your book or even a fixed percentage, this is Amazon saying we'll decide how much profit to keep and how much to put in the shared kitty and you can all fight over whatever crumbs we deign to throw at you.

This throws the economics of things like bookbub out of the window. Who is seriously going to pay 500 USD to promote a book when you don't know if you'll be getting 30 cents or 3 dollars per copy sold? How many of us honestly want to run our business having to 'guess' what our sales figures mean in money at the end of the month based on how many people read books that month.

As i said earlier, it is a boon for novella and serial writers under a certain price point.

I agree with others I think this is the beginning of the end of free/permafree. If you've got a huge pool of readers who can effectively read any paid title they want at no additional cost then where is the appeal of your 5 day free promo, why would they dig around the now hidden free lists for 'bargain books?'

More importantly, what will this do to the bookbub free/99c promo? - if you've got your pick of 600,000 paid titles then you don't care if the book is listed free, 99c or 9.99 - you get it for your all you can eat budget. Suddenly there is no need to rush to grab promo'd books and since everyone will be on a completely level playing field there will be zero price advantage you can leverage for your book over your genre neighbours book - got a sale on? makes no difference. You've paid your 9.99 you can have anything on the list for the same up front fee. You might get the bump in visibility but will that translate to improved income is hard to say.

Another side issue is how much pressure this now puts on us as writers, we've seen the effect already on free - you can grab 10 books at a time, you can literally skim through a few pages and the minute you lose interest in it then junk it and on to the next, I suspect we'll see a lot more 'grazing' on books because there is no longer a cost for extended sampling.

As always there will be winners and losers, but one thing I am certain of this will be a big game changer for many people, the fact Amazon isn't prepared to be locked down on income rates per read is a very worrying development.

KOLL borrows were a finite capped number, this has a very specific income pool and Amazon is now completely free to determine how big a share of your book income it wants to help itself to.

Just think about that last point for 30 seconds. We've been fretting like mad over the will they keep 70 percent royalty rates question. Here is a completely new business model and Amazon is making NO STATEMENT AT ALL on what percentage of your sale price you will get per 'sale'. Only Amazon will know how much subscriber income they are generating and how much they are prepared to pay out for the total reads. They could be paying 100 percent, 50 percent, 10 percent.... we won't know because I doubt they will publish the actual total reads and total subscriber income pool. So we go from a situation as authors where even in the trad world we were given a fixed percentage to having a deal that is effectively a random floating number that Amazon can change at will, and the price of this 'generosity' is being locked in exclusive so your entire career and income is dependent on them, if it comes to pass that almost the entire of select authors income comes from KU then we could see a hidden tier system where in effect you are making less money per sale than both KDP authors and trads.

Amazon did a wonderful thing with KDP, they gave us better percentages of our sales, quicker payments and many other things that the trads didn't, but the KU deal with no clear fixed 'percentage' could mean we end up worse off than under trad deals. And that has to be a worrying development, a clear right we wanted as indies was the right to determine our own pricing and know our income percentages, handing our content over and not even being told what percentage of our list price we will get out of the KU fund is just crazy.


----------



## Nick Bryan

Also saw this blog post about the actual terms for authors: http://michaelrunderwood.com/2014/07/18/kindle-unlimited/

I'm not really experienced enough on the scene to know exactly what this means all round, but I wasn't planning on enrolling in KDP Select, so guess it doesn't matter to me yet.


----------



## adanlerma

Avis Black said:


> A 'block' of good authors in one genre all posting on just one subscription site wields real power. I'd suspect authors would head for where the better payment is, once they do the math and experiment a bit with the various sites. If Amazon's maximum payout is still just 2 dollars, Scribd and Oyster would gain writers who'd like to see a bit more money than that for their titles.


Great points: authors can be a "block," and there is a royalty difference.

Plus authors on Scribd could still also sell on regular Amazon, Oyster, libraries, iTunes, B&N, etc.

If subscriptions can remain competitive, this may prove very good for indies.


----------



## C. Gockel

I actually got my start writing fanfiction, so I *LIKE* writing in a serial style. I love the rush and attention that each new release gets.

But I feel like the best thing to do is wait for this to shake out. I'm not sure how many of my readers read enough books a month to make this worth their while. I probably read four books a month at least, but usually some of those are free and then it's me just picking up the sequel. And I'm on Scribd and Oyster (and not getting much traction), so I'm out there for people who like the subscription model.

I'm actively querying my readers about their buying habits now. But I think my best course of action is to hang tight for three months and see how this shakes out.


----------



## Mandy

Does anyone know if we will be able to borrow different books simultaneously across all devices under one account? That's the deciding factor for me; I'd like for my kids to be able to borrow their own books.


----------



## EC

Josef Black said:


> I agree Amazon have had their hand forced for sure, they were making decent bank from kindle as it was and KOLL was a good enough driver for Prime which was their main interest.
> 
> I don't think you can compare Oyster, Scribd and unlimited to the public library system (which i fully support, my childhood reading was all thanks to the local library). The library system provides an essential taxpayer funded service to improve the literacy and education of the population and offers access to people regardless of their income.
> 
> The difference is that Scribd et al are in this for a profit, not public service. Like all silicon valley funded businesses they are using investor capital to run at a lost to sew up a big a market as possible with a view then to cashing in with a big IPO/Sale or income stream. I've got no problem with a model that basically pays authors a standard wholesale price for each book 'rented' - these aren't public service charities they are in it for a profit, I don't see why I have to subsidise them to make a killing on their IPO share values. If they want to profit from our work they should pay a fair market price for it.
> 
> Alas what is typical of silicon valley thinking is books become 'units', they don't care about our ability to make a living wage or a sustainable income that allows us to continue to provide quality content. They just want X units and they will cut our throats to ensure they get the business model that gives them the best market advantage.
> 
> Is it inevitable that this is the future of book retailing? Probably. There was a big guardian article that basically said that it is the baby boomer generation that are propping up paid book sales and the paper market, once we get to generation Y (spotify era) then the price of digital content will trend to zero. They laughably suggest that our future is the same as the web's - getting 4 cents per 1000 reads in advertising revenue.
> 
> As someone has now posted, Amazon will 'determine' how big the pool it sets for KU is at its own discretion. This isn't them saying we'll pay you wholesale price for your book or even a fixed percentage, this is Amazon saying we'll decide how much profit to keep and how much to put in the shared kitty and you can all fight over whatever crumbs we deign to throw at you.
> 
> This throws the economics of things like bookbub out of the window. Who is seriously going to pay 500 USD to promote a book when you don't know if you'll be getting 30 cents or 3 dollars per copy sold? How many of us honestly want to run our business having to 'guess' what our sales figures mean in money at the end of the month based on how many people read books that month.
> 
> As i said earlier, it is a boon for novella and serial writers under a certain price point.
> 
> I agree with others I think this is the beginning of the end of free/permafree. If you've got a huge pool of readers who can effectively read any paid title they want at no additional cost then where is the appeal of your 5 day free promo, why would they dig around the now hidden free lists for 'bargain books?'
> 
> More importantly, what will this do to the bookbub free/99c promo? - if you've got your pick of 600,000 paid titles then you don't care if the book is listed free, 99c or 9.99 - you get it for your all you can eat budget. Suddenly there is no need to rush to grab promo'd books and since everyone will be on a completely level playing field there will be zero price advantage you can leverage for your book over your genre neighbours book - got a sale on? makes no difference. You've paid your 9.99 you can have anything on the list for the same up front fee. You might get the bump in visibility but will that translate to improved income is hard to say.
> 
> Another side issue is how much pressure this now puts on us as writers, we've seen the effect already on free - you can grab 10 books at a time, you can literally skim through a few pages and the minute you lose interest in it then junk it and on to the next, I suspect we'll see a lot more 'grazing' on books because there is no longer a cost for extended sampling.
> 
> As always there will be winners and losers, but one thing I am certain of this will be a big game changer for many people, the fact Amazon isn't prepared to be locked down on income rates per read is a very worrying development.
> 
> KOLL borrows were a finite capped number, this has a very specific income pool and Amazon is now completely free to determine how big a share of your book income it wants to help itself to.
> 
> Just think about that last point for 30 seconds. We've been fretting like mad over the will they keep 70 percent royalty rates question. Here is a completely new business model and Amazon is making NO STATEMENT AT ALL on what percentage of your sale price you will get per 'sale'. Only Amazon will know how much subscriber income they are generating and how much they are prepared to pay out for the total reads. They could be paying 100 percent, 50 percent, 10 percent.... we won't know because I doubt they will publish the actual total reads and total subscriber income pool. So we go from a situation as authors where even in the trad world we were given a fixed percentage to having a deal that is effectively a random floating number that Amazon can change at will, and the price of this 'generosity' is being locked in exclusive so your entire career and income is dependent on them, if it comes to pass that almost the entire of select authors income comes from KU then we could see a hidden tier system where in effect you are making less money per sale than both KDP authors and trads.
> 
> Amazon did a wonderful thing with KDP, they gave us better percentages of our sales, quicker payments and many other things that the trads didn't, but the KU deal with no clear fixed 'percentage' could mean we end up worse off than under trad deals. And that has to be a worrying development, a clear right we wanted as indies was the right to determine our own pricing and know our income percentages, handing our content over and not even being told what percentage of our list price we will get out of the KU fund is just crazy.


You still can - just opt out of select.


----------



## adanlerma

jamielakenovels said:


> If it takes off won't the other eBook outlets be forced to create an unlimited program of their own? And how will this affect book stores when someone can get eBooks for next to nothing will they have incentives to buy paper books?
> 
> How long before the Big 5 who are not willing participants yet be pressured to be part of the program when people prefer to just use Kindle Unlimited rather than "pay" for books?


Amazon, I feel, has been forced into this themselves (even if planning to do this eventually anyways, they're smart folk  ) via the success of both Scribd and Oyster, and several other entrants coming in (txtr, etc).

These programs already have millions of subscribers, and authors in these programs do not have to be exclusive.

Big 5 have been increasing their titles in Scribd and Oyster the last few months (according to reports I've read) due to their success in these programs.

More worrisome to me is, if those same Big 5 will try to buy indies out of visibility. That's already happened on OverDrive who distributes to over 20,000 libraries, even if for "other reasons."


----------



## adanlerma

VMた said:


> Saying that this is good for authors because it brings "exposure" is like saying that piracy is good for authors because it brings "exposure."
> 
> NOW do those of you who are still sensible have some idea of why I'm rooting for Hachette?
> 
> This will gut the incomes of independent authors if it works. If you participate voluntarily, you're joining in on cutting your own throat.


With all respect, I don't get being "for" either side. Hachette already guts the incomes of its authors.

More needed, I believe, is something that is author-centric -

And then extends into retail and subscriptions.


----------



## JuliMonroe

adanlerma said:


> Juli, I'd say it's a crap shoot and follow your gut.
> 
> Because you could put that first novella free, including on Scribd and Oyster, and "possibly" get a lot of new people to see your work beyond the number subscribed on KU, and they'd have access to your follow-on work, on those subscription programs and other outlets.
> 
> Plus folk can read any free-priced titles without an account on Scribd, a big plus.
> 
> Or, you could experiment, it's only 90 days, and see what happens.
> 
> I'm not moving any of my work right now, but am thinking of putting a new short I'm finishing in KU, just to see what happens


Good thoughts. I am working on a short also, and I might KU it instead. Lots to think about and try.


----------



## Hugh Howey

Just downloaded my first book using KU. This is a serious game-changer for readers. Like -- you'd be crazy not to buy into this. The books go right to your device, and on my Fire, the audiobook showed up automatically as well. Cray-cray.

More thoughts: 

--This allows Amazon to bypass Apple's unwillingness to allow in-app purchases. If you are a KU subscriber, you can pick a book and just read. More cray-cray.

--If readers are paying a flat $10, the price advantage for indies goes out the window. If the Big 5 were smart, they would throw their weight into this. Which means we can probably assume they won't.

--Amazon will have to fund this to reasonable numbers. They can't let the borrow rate go below $2, or they are toast. What I would like to see, to combat the short-story-goldrush, is a tiered borrow rate based on price. You won't be able to upload short works at $9.99 and profit, because the review systems are tied together. Great reviews from free readers will lead to purchases from paid readers, who will leave 1-star reviews based on price/length. It will be hard to game this system because of that. (Maybe that's just my optimism speaking.)

--I know this isn't the first subscription model, but I think the device architecture and integration, plus the reader access/algorithms/recommendations make this fundamentally different. This might be the biggest thing that happens in the book industry this year. And KBoards broke the story!


----------



## Frank Zubek

Throwing my little can of gasoline onto the bonfire....

This appears to have both nice potential and also unknowns

And yet the same old staples are locked in here

Just exactly how much disposable entertainment income does the average reader (or a family that HAS a number of readers in it ) actually have each month?
Many folks already shell out- on average- 60 to 100 bucks for a bundle package from a local cable company for the TV and the phones and internet access.
A number of THEM subscribe to Netflix ( or have thrown in an extra few bucks for some premium channels into the cable bundle)
Plus......pet food, a once a month outing to the movies- a number of trips to a restaurant per month....plus gasoline for the SUV.......and then the rest of the more important necessities like food, medical, house payment, car insurance, school, etc etc etc.

How many readers will really want to add ( or can even afford) another ten bucks  onto the monthly pile of bills to read unlimited books? ( And yeah....a large number of readers are famous for grabbing free books and tossing them on the TBR pile-- but what happens to that option when you suddenly have to PAY for a number of books that will find their way to the TBR pile?)

Of course....amazon figures there ARE enough potential customers out there or they wouldn't have even gone here
Still.....  like most new shiny things.... a large number of folks will sign up and take it for a test drive
The bottom line will happen by the holidays once the inevitable shaking out period passes
I should think we'll have a clearer idea of solid numbers when winter settles in post holidays and everybody takes a look at their personal monthly bottom line.


----------



## EC

Just some rambling thoughts - 

The game changing aspect of this for many is the rush away from Select, the tidal wave - has been stopped in it's tracks. 

The "make it free" model will now virtually collapse - the only readers that will be scrabbling about in that pool are the one's that are too tight to front up $9.99 a month. Not exactly prime contenders for buying the next book in the series, are they?
........................................

The value of Bookbub, and there still will be a value, will really be down to exposure rather than potential profit - I can see BB executives having a sleepless weekend. To be fair I think they deserve it as they were at the point of gouging authors.
........................................
For me - I've been working hard on a travel guide, it's taken me ages to write it and I think it will be live in about two weeks.  I was going to market at $8.99 - half the price of the Lonely Planet version - which I have now discovered is in Select and KU eligible.  Oh well, I'm in trouble now - 

But what will the Lonely Planet Execs think of being paid a dollar or so for their $17.99 title? 
.........................................
I have a pal with 85 titles up - shall I do them a favour and download the lot? skim through 15% of the book and make sure they get paid? Anyone want to do that for my 32 titles? 

Will that be the next thread? "Let's Game KU By Downloading Each Others Back Catalogues."  - shall I OP it? lol
..........................................

I think a good few people are going to have a sleepless weekend this weekend.


----------



## IreneP

Anybody know if this article is accurate about how authors will be paid?



> So how do you get paid? KU will supply limited royalties from something called the KDP Select Global Fund. Readers must read 10% of the book to be eligible for royalties that will change from month to month. Here is the exact Amazon language:
> 
> The fund amount is variable and announced on a monthly basis. We constantly monitor all factors that impact the KDP Select fund in order to set the fund amount for our KDP Select authors.
> &#8230;Earn your share of the KDP Select Global Fund amount when readers chose and read more than 10% of your book from Kindle Unlimited, or borrow your book from the Kindle Owners' Lending Library.


From:
http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/18/what-kindle-unlimited-means-for-authors/


----------



## Redacted1111

Hugh Howey said:


> Just downloaded my first book using KU. This is a serious game-changer for readers. Like -- you'd be crazy not to buy into this. The books go right to your device, and on my Fire, the audiobook showed up automatically as well. Cray-cray.
> 
> More thoughts:
> 
> --This allows Amazon to bypass Apple's unwillingness to allow in-app purchases. If you are a KU subscriber, you can pick a book and just read. More cray-cray.
> 
> --If readers are paying a flat $10, the price advantage for indies goes out the window. If the Big 5 were smart, they would throw their weight into this. Which means we can probably assume they won't.
> 
> --Amazon will have to fund this to reasonable numbers. They can't let the borrow rate go below $2, or they are toast. What I would like to see, to combat the short-story-goldrush, is a tiered borrow rate based on price. You won't be able to upload short works at $9.99 and profit, because the review systems are tied together. Great reviews from free readers will lead to purchases from paid readers, who will leave 1-star reviews based on price/length. It will be hard to game this system because of that. (Maybe that's just my optimism speaking.)
> 
> --I know this isn't the first subscription model, but I think the device architecture and integration, plus the reader access/algorithms/recommendations make this fundamentally different. This might be the biggest thing that happens in the book industry this year. And KBoards broke the story!


I can already imagine a lot of IM types jumping on the bandwagon and trying to game the system. I do believe they have to safeguard author's incomes or they will have won't get buy in from indie authors. I also agree that having a tiered price structure will ensure there isn't an influx of 3000 word short stories priced at $9.99. There will always be a demographic of readers who don't opt into Unlimited. To paid buyers, prices like that just look ridiculous. I'm sure Amazon doesn't want to see prices like that in their store.


----------



## Guest

Josef Black, you steal the thread again. I cannot see how authors making a living on sales can view giving them away at a reduced price is a good thing. Hugh throws out the $2 doorstopper which is fine and all, but seriously, will Amazon? They couldn't have been less quiet on this front to authors - really - them not explaining things properly due ahead of time is no accident.


----------



## Guest

Hugh Howey said:


> What I would like to see, to combat the short-story-goldrush, is a tiered borrow rate based on price. You won't be able to upload short works at $9.99 and profit, because the review systems are tied together. Great reviews from free readers will lead to purchases from paid readers, who will leave 1-star reviews based on price/length. It will be hard to game this system because of that. (Maybe that's just my optimism speaking.)


This has always been one of my concerns with Select to begin with. It rewards people with cheap, short works but penalizes authors with longer, higher priced titles. It would never make sense for someone selling books $4 and up to be in Select (assuming you also get sales on other channels) because you end up losing money. If I have a book at $5.99 and make $4.19 a sale and that book is also selling on other channels, why on earth would I go into Select, eliminate my sales at other channels, and make half the money on a borrow?

But then again, maybe Amazon WANTS just a high volume of shorter, cheap works. In retail, we call it the illusion of choice. The more options available, the more likely the customer completes the sale...despite the fact that the majority of the time they will buy the same thing. McDonalds makes 70% of their revenue off of five menu items, and yet whenever they have scaled back their menu sales plummeted. WalMart went through the same thing a few years ago when they decided to "clean up" their aisles by limiting the number of options to those that customers buy most. The result was less foot traffic and plummeting sales.

So if Amazon's goal is merely volume, then they don't care about have 500,000 of those 600,000 titles all being 99 cent, 20,000 ebooks. Because even if 10,000 of those titles get a lot of traffic and they end up paying $2 a borrow instead of 35 cents a sale, the other 490,000 titles aren't costing them anything and driving subscriptions with the illusion of choice.

And of course, the secondary result of all these people in Select means Amazon gets the benefit of using Select authors as their sales force, since those authors will ever only refer readers to Amazon. So again, even if they overpay $2 on a 99 cent book, they make up the difference on increased cart through referrals.


----------



## dmac

EC said:


> The value of Bookbub, and there still will be a value, will really be down to exposure rather than potential profit - I can see BB executives having a sleepless weekend. To be fair I think they deserve it as they were at the point of gouging authors.
> .....................................................
> I have a pal with 85 titles up - shall I do them a favour and download the lot? skim through 15% of the book and make sure they get paid? Anyone want to do that for my 32 titles?


$200 for a listing on SF/Horror that will usually result in a ROI in the $1000s does not sound like "gouging" to me. YMMV

As for the skimming-for-profits, I would assume that Jeff Bezos' team is too smart to allow something like that to happen. I assume there would be some measures in place where you cannot simply click-click-click-click through the pages, i.e. reading speed will have an impact to gauge the validity of your "reading."

But I could be wrong. I also assumed (or was hoping, anyway) that Amazon would provide a release window for new books, but they seem to not care about that.


----------



## Jude Hardin

Hugh Howey said:


> Just downloaded my first book using KU. This is a serious game-changer for readers. Like -- you'd be crazy not to buy into this. The books go right to your device, and on my Fire, the audiobook showed up automatically as well. Cray-cray.
> 
> More thoughts:
> 
> --This allows Amazon to bypass Apple's unwillingness to allow in-app purchases. If you are a KU subscriber, you can pick a book and just read. More cray-cray.
> 
> --If readers are paying a flat $10, the price advantage for indies goes out the window. If the Big 5 were smart, they would throw their weight into this. Which means we can probably assume they won't.
> 
> --Amazon will have to fund this to reasonable numbers. They can't let the borrow rate go below $2, or they are toast. What I would like to see, to combat the short-story-goldrush, is a tiered borrow rate based on price. You won't be able to upload short works at $9.99 and profit, because the review systems are tied together. Great reviews from free readers will lead to purchases from paid readers, who will leave 1-star reviews based on price/length. It will be hard to game this system because of that. (Maybe that's just my optimism speaking.)
> 
> --I know this isn't the first subscription model, but I think the device architecture and integration, plus the reader access/algorithms/recommendations make this fundamentally different. This might be the biggest thing that happens in the book industry this year. And KBoards broke the story!


This is only the first day, so it might change, but right now the only books of mine that are available for KU are the books exclusive to Amazon. That is, my Thomas and Mercer titles, and my self-published titles that are enrolled in Select. Have you noticed if any Big 5 books are available yet, Hugh?


----------



## Guest

Just got emailed Amazon's announcement. I don't want a 'share' of a fund. I want to know what I'll be paid for people reading my work.


----------



## Jim Johnson

As a reader, I'm thrilled. If I can read as many books as I can in a month, and the writers get paid if I read at least 10%, win win. That's about the length of a sample, so rather than download the sample and delete it if it's not to my taste, I can delete the book after the 10% and know that the writer at least got paid for the try-out. Even though this will fractionally cannibalize my own profits if I have books in the program too.

As a writer, I think this will be amazeballs for serials and series. Rather than make a reader pay 3.99 or whatever per installment, they can pay 'zon the 9.99 monthly fee and then read as many installments as they want, and the author still gets a chunk of change per installment. More options for readers and writers. I can see where a smart writer would diversify--have stuff in Select/KOLL/KU, have stuff out of it, etc.


----------



## cinisajoy

I didn't check it out but it is on several books at Amazon and on the front page so off to look for you.


----------



## ElHawk

Mark E. Cooper said:


> This is my current thinking as well. Will I put any of my current books into Select to get into KU? HELL NO! I would lose all traction in my other channels just at the point they are paying off. Will I put a new release for my series in it? HELL NO! My readers would go ape[crap] if they are forced to use Amazon exclusively.
> 
> But would I write a special funnel book and put THAT in? Hell yes! A book like that to lead readers into your existing paid for series would be gold. Its basically a permafree book on crack! The reader gets an almost free book and Iget paid. How much? We don't know, but I don't get paid for permafree now except in promo credits (sort of) that pay off when readers follow through and buy the sequels.


This right here is the solution, guys. Keep your books available widely, write new content specifically for the subscription service, designed to funnel readers toward your other, non-subscription books. You can even brand that new stuff as "Subscription Exclusive!" or whatever.

Or, rotate some parts of your backlist in and out of the subscription, but keep all non-subscription books available on all other platforms.

Either way, you can use the subscription as a funnel to direct to your other books.

Nobody is proposing that you MUST put ALL your books into the subscription service, and yet people are reacting to this news as if all-or-nothing is the law of the land. If the books you write for/temporarily rotate into subscription are really good, readers aren't going to balk at buying a few extra books at low indie prices.

I don't see how this is all that different from the KOLL when it first appeared. People freaked out about that, too, but in the end it turned into just another discoverability channel (of varying value to varying authors.) This will be more of the same.

Above all, EXPECT changes like this to come along. The game will always change. You're an indie. You're agile. You can adapt fast enough to make it work for you.


----------



## B&amp;H

ShaneJeffery said:


> Josef Black, you steal the thread again. I cannot see how authors making a living on sales can view giving them away at a reduced price is a good thing. Hugh throws out the $2 doorstopper which is fine and all, but seriously, will Amazon? They couldn't have been less quiet on this front to authors - really - them not explaining things properly due ahead of time is no accident.


I'd like to know where Hugh's 2 USD math comes from.

Amazon have said you can have 10 books out at a time, for 9.99 - that is 99 cents per book including Amazon's cut.

Amazon has a capped fund for KOLL because they cap it at one book a month. Also they are cross-subsidising it with selling lawn mowers and nappies. They have nothing to cross-subsidise Unlimited with - the hardware is at cost and they make nothing from Kindle app users. they need to generate revenue from this - and my assumption is the cloak and dagger 'we will set the fund amount' means they will get their 50 percent equiv to what they asked the trads for through the back door. so we can assume then that 5 bucks at most is in the kitty per user, thats 50 cents a copy.

Even if they put the full 10 bucks in that would mean they would be putting 1 USD into every single book. that could run into hundreds of millions. Amazon isn't going to do that.

My guess is that the read rate will end up between 35-70 cents. For everyone who doesn't read 10 books a month there will be those voracious romance girls lapping up 50 serials a month.

And as said, Amazon haven't even STATED what percentage of the income is going to authors. How is this being missed? Hugh? Do you find it acceptable Amazon is signing up people for a deal and not telling them what percentage of the sales pot they will be getting? What if it is only ten percent? We go berserk over Hachette & co for their low royalty rates and here is a channel that will potentially dominate book sales and we don't even know what percentage of list we'll even get paid.


----------



## adanlerma

Josef Black said:


> I agree Amazon have had their hand forced for sure...
> 
> I don't think you can compare Oyster, Scribd and unlimited to the public library system (which i fully support, my childhood reading was all thanks to the local library). The library system provides an essential taxpayer funded service to improve the literacy and education of the population and offers access to people regardless of their income.


Josef, what a great reply. There is _a lot_ to all this!

I do think, despite the obvious differences, there is a similarity, for readers, between subscription services in general, and libraries.

Libraries are the last and best brick and mortar. Ironically, they have entered the digital age and can now, in over thousands of direct locations across the country, serve the reading public in those communities. I know people in very well to do Westlake next to us here in Austin who are using their new modern age libraries more and more.

Yet, self-published titles to libraries are currently effectively being hidden from librarians in over 20,000 "public service" libraries around the country.

This is wrong.

Libraries are currently having to pay big publishers huge fees just to lend out a title a few times.

If libraries had easy access to ALL self-published titles, on request from library patrons (which my own titles can't be even here in Austin, one of the largest most progressive cities in the country) this would give libraries more power back from big publishers, and be able to serve the public interest without as huge a cost to big publishers.



> The difference is that Scribd et al are in this for a profit, not public service...these aren't public service charities they are in it for a profit, I don't see why I have to subsidise them to make a killing on their IPO share values. If they want to profit from our work they should pay a fair market price for it...


I feel I am getting a set fair market price for my work from both Scribd and Oyster: 60% of retail price.



> I agree with others I think this is the beginning of the end of free/permafree...


May be true. I have 6 titles free. But am keeping them for now because, like at Scribd, folk without an account can both read my work without cost or sign-up, and experience how Scribd works (to see if they'd like to sign up.)



> KOLL borrows were a finite capped number, this has a very specific income pool and Amazon is now completely free to determine how big a share of your book income it wants to help itself to...
> 
> Just think about that last point for 30 seconds. We've been fretting like mad over the will they keep 70 percent royalty rates question. Here is a completely new business model and Amazon is making NO STATEMENT AT ALL on what percentage of your sale price you will get per 'sale'...
> 
> So we go from a situation as authors where even in the trad world we were given a fixed percentage to having a deal that is effectively a random floating number that Amazon can change at will, and the price of this 'generosity' is being locked in exclusive so your entire career and income is dependent on them, if it comes to pass that almost the entire of select authors income comes from KU then we could see a hidden tier system where in effect you are making less money per sale than both KDP authors and trads.


Can't say it better than you Josef.



> Amazon did a wonderful thing with KDP, they gave us better percentages of our sales, quicker payments and many other things that the trads didn't, but the KU deal with no clear fixed 'percentage' could mean we end up worse off than under trad deals. And that has to be a worrying development, a clear right we wanted as indies was the right to determine our own pricing and know our income percentages, handing our content over and not even being told what percentage of our list price we will get out of the KU fund is just crazy.


[/quote]

Ditto.

Thanks Josef. All the best wishes, for all of us.


----------



## wtvr

If it does end permafree, how will that look? Amazon has to price match... Maybe they'll do it on a per-request basis?


----------



## adanlerma

JuliMonroe said:


> Good thoughts. I am working on a short also, and I might KU it instead. Lots to think about and try.


That's for sure! 

Best wishes Juli


----------



## EC

dmac said:


> $200 for a listing on SF/Horror that will usually result in a ROI in the $1000s does not sound like "gouging" to me. YMMV
> 
> As for the skimming-for-profits, I would assume that Jeff Bezos' team is too smart to allow something like that to happen. I assume there would be some measures in place where you cannot simply click-click-click-click through the pages, i.e. reading speed will have an impact to gauge the validity of your "reading."
> 
> But I could be wrong. I also assumed (or was hoping, anyway) that Amazon would provide a release window for new books, but they seem to not care about that.


Have you seen how rapidly BB have increased their prices? Come back in a year and tell me what you think then.


----------



## Guest

LisaGloria said:


> If it does end permafree, how will that look? Amazon has to price match... Maybe they'll do it on a per-request basis?


Probably just start enforcing their policies regarding offering the same price everywhere. It is in the TOS that you aren't suppose to offer a lower price elsewhere. To date, Amazon has turned a blind eye to that. But they can enforce it at any time with one of their nasty "you have five days to resolve or else" emails.


----------



## ZanaHart

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But then again, maybe Amazon WANTS just a high volume of shorter, cheap works. In retail, we call it the illusion of choice. The more options available, the more likely the customer completes the sale...despite the fact that the majority of the time they will buy the same thing. McDonalds makes 70% of their revenue off of five menu items, and yet whenever they have scaled back their menu sales plummeted. WalMart went through the same thing a few years ago when they decided to "clean up" their aisles by limiting the number of options to those that customers buy most. The result was less foot traffic and plummeting sales.


I didn't know this and it makes prefect sense. Yep, we are part of the illusion!


----------



## dmac

EC said:


> Have you seen how rapidly BB have increased their prices? Come back in a year and tell me what you think then.


And in a year from now when using Bookbub no longer results in a profitable ROI, then I, and every other author, will stop using them. What is so hard to grasp about this very simple concept? If paying $500 gets you $1000 and new fans, will you not do it? I do not understand your argument.


----------



## adanlerma

Hugh Howey said:


> Just downloaded my first book using KU. This is a serious game-changer for readers. Like -- you'd be crazy not to buy into this. The books go right to your device, and on my Fire, the audiobook showed up automatically as well. Cray-cray.
> 
> More thoughts:
> 
> --This allows Amazon to bypass Apple's unwillingness to allow in-app purchases. If you are a KU subscriber, you can pick a book and just read. More cray-cray.
> 
> --If readers are paying a flat $10, the price advantage for indies goes out the window. If the Big 5 were smart, they would throw their weight into this. Which means we can probably assume they won't.
> 
> --Amazon will have to fund this to reasonable numbers. They can't let the borrow rate go below $2, or they are toast. What I would like to see, to combat the short-story-goldrush, is a tiered borrow rate based on price. You won't be able to upload short works at $9.99 and profit, because the review systems are tied together. Great reviews from free readers will lead to purchases from paid readers, who will leave 1-star reviews based on price/length. It will be hard to game this system because of that. (Maybe that's just my optimism speaking.)
> 
> --I know this isn't the first subscription model, but I think the device architecture and integration, plus the reader access/algorithms/recommendations make this fundamentally different. This might be the biggest thing that happens in the book industry this year. And KBoards broke the story!


Hi Hugh, wanna say how much I admire all you do for indies.

I agree with a lot of what you say, esp that Amazon "can't let the borrow rate go below $2, or they are toast," but also want to say I disagree with : "I know this isn't the first subscription model, but I think the device architecture and integration, plus the reader access/algorithms/recommendations make this fundamentally different." -

I'm not finding much different in reader access or recommendations on Scribd or Oyster.

And though "device architecture and integration" is great (I have a new Kindle Fire), that sort of integration is also available on my iPhone and iPad and Mac laptop via iBooks. And via virtually any device and online via Scribd.

Differences? Yes. Fundamentally different? Not at my level, with what I read and enjoy.

Also, I'm not up on the details, but Scribd has all kinds of guidelines for what can be priced at what level (to keep short work being over-priced I believe). My contact there is Alison, and if she's (usually) glad to talk with me, I know she'll be glad to talk with you. 

Anyway, good to hear your thoughts on this, best wishes always.


----------



## Kathelm

Wow, this could become heavy pressure for authors to join KDP Select.  People using Unlimited are naturally going to prioritize books that they don't have to pay extra for, so authors outside the program will see sales go down if there are a lot of subscribers.  This isn't good news for those of us who like doing business on more than one platform.

EDIT: And it could simultaneously devalue Select, as the royalties for books read through Unlimited come out of the Select fund.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Kathelm said:


> This isn't good news for those of us weho like doing business on more than one platform.


It's not all or nothing, though. Diversify. Put some stuff in Select and some not.


----------



## cinisajoy

Mandy,
No luck on finding out any info for you.


----------



## KZoe

Josef Black said:


> I'd like to know where Hugh's 2 USD math comes from.
> 
> Amazon have said you can have 10 books out at a time, for 9.99 - that is 99 cents per book including Amazon's cut.


You can have 10 books out a time but there's no cap on the number that can be read during the month. It's conceivable that there will be a portion of KU members who can read 20 - 30 books (especially novellas or short stories) in a month. What's _that_ going to do the fund?


----------



## ElHawk

@LisaGloria's last post above: 

Right. The fund share is likely to diminish over time, but again, I don't understand why people are expecting to put ALL their titles into Select/KU. Put in one at a time. Rotate stand-alones, or commit a first volume of a series to the program. Think of it as a Permafree title: a discoverability tool that you don't expect to make a penny on. Keep the rest of your books out of Select and available on all other platforms. 

I guess I fail to see why this is such a devastation to so many people. It just looks like a different iteration of the same old (very successful) Permafree strategy.


----------



## Kathelm

> It's not all or nothing, though. Diversify. Put some stuff in Select and some not.


To what end? I would argue that making some of your titles exclusive to a vendor is the opposite of diversifying. Why lock readers out of accessing some of your material?


----------



## glc3

This is posted here: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=AA9BSAGNO1YJH

Merchandising Your Book Kindle Unlimited

Make your books easier to find with Kindle Unlimited

Kindle Unlimited is a subscription service currently available to customers in the U.S. With Kindle Unlimited, customers can read as many books as they like and keep them as long as they want for a monthly subscription fee. Any customer can subscribe to Kindle Unlimited. They don't need to be Amazon Prime members, they simply need to pay the subscription fee.

If you have a book enrolled in KDP Select, it will automatically be enrolled in Kindle Unlimited. It will also remain enrolled in the Kindle Owners' Lending Library, which is currently available to Amazon Prime customers in the U.S., UK, Germany, France, and Japan.

In order to be eligible to be included in Kindle Unlimited you must meet the KDP Select requirements and enroll your book in KDP Select. Learn how to enroll.

If you do not want your book(s) in Kindle Unlimited, you have the option to immediately remove your book from KDP Select. To do so, please include the ASIN for your book when you complete this Contact Us form. We will remove your book from KDPS right away and contact you to confirm.

How customers get your book

When customers subscribe to Kindle Unlimited and search Amazon.com for Kindle books, they will see a badge next to your KDP-Select-enrolled book indicating that the book is available in Kindle Unlimited. They can also visit the Kindle Unlimited page and see available books there.

*Once a customer reads more than 10% of your book*, or a Kindle Owners' Lending Library customer downloads your book, you'll receive a share of the KDP Select Global Fund.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I see that KU and KOLL are listed together in the sales chart. I wonder if they will eventually make separate columns. I'd like to see which one the reader is using.


----------



## X. Aratare

ElHawk said:


> @LisaGloria's last post above:
> 
> Right. The fund share is likely to diminish over time, but again, I don't understand why people are expecting to put ALL their titles into Select/KU. Put in one at a time. Rotate stand-alones, or commit a first volume of a series to the program. Think of it as a Permafree title: a discoverability tool that you don't expect to make a penny on. Keep the rest of your books out of Select and available on all other platforms.
> 
> I guess I fail to see why this is such a devastation to so many people. It just looks like a different iteration of the same old (very successful) Permafree strategy.


Unlike the permafree strategy, your first volume could ONLY be on Amazon though. Which means all those Kobo, Nook, Apple, Google people will have to go to Amazon to purchase it since they can only get volumes 2+ on those sites. I think it will inevitably cause people to resent the author for not having it available or simply turn away from that series with a shrug.


----------



## adanlerma

LisaGloria said:


> The KU landing page is fundamentally different, more Netflixy. (That's a word now; I call it.) There are highlighted categories and Recommended For You... There are featured subcategories in Romance (not Sci-Fi Romance, curses!!).
> 
> I'm delighted at the prospect of real recommendations based not just on buying a title, but how much you read of it.
> 
> Those borrows will affect sales rankings in the non-KU world, eliminating some of the price advantage to higher price points in the algorithm and also bringing first-movers in KU advantage in the regular rankings.
> 
> I'm aware that the fund share will probably diminish over time, but that's the name of the game. If I were making widgets and my distributor just opened a new market, I would expect them to lean on my per-unit pricing. That will pick up over time.
> 
> Whatever this will be in 2 years, *the next 6-8 months is the best it is likely to be for us.* Hike up your socks and run! Go! Write something!


Lisa, just not seeing a fundamental difference. I can browse categories in Scribd, then sub-categories.

Better in KU, probably. Fundamentally? No.

Really like your comment, "Those borrows will affect sales rankings in the non-KU world, eliminating some of the price advantage to higher price points in the algorithm and also bringing first-movers in KU advantage in the regular rankings." -

And a lot of folk I admire also believe it's the name of the game that fund share (price paid per unit to authors) will diminish, but that's also why it's important to keep competition, like Scribd, like Oyster, like libraries (you are more subscription like than many realize), and others.

Like Hugh says, this is a game changer. But, for me, the real game changer is Amazon responding to the current (and growing) subscription services (Scribd & Oyster) and libraries new and rapidly growing reach into ebook lending.

I could be wrong. I've been often enough, my wife reminds me 

And I certainly plan to put a new short in KU.

Hey, I may have my opinions, but I'm not burning bridges...


----------



## Guest

What'


ElHawk said:


> @LisaGloria's last post above:
> 
> Right. The fund share is likely to diminish over time, but again, I don't understand why people are expecting to put ALL their titles into Select/KU. Put in one at a time. Rotate stand-alones, or commit a first volume of a series to the program. Think of it as a Permafree title: a discoverability tool that you don't expect to make a penny on. Keep the rest of your books out of Select and available on all other platforms.
> 
> I guess I fail to see why this is such a devastation to so many people. It just looks like a different iteration of the same old (very successful) Permafree strategy.


But Permafree gets you visibility on other retailers.

What good is Book 2, 3 and 4 going to do on Barnes and Noble / Apple when Book 1 is in KU Select?

Edit: X. Aratare got there first.


----------



## Jena H

And, ironically, Amazon's announcement email contains... a typo??


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

When I went to the page I got a message to say:  Sorry, not available in your country. Only available to US customers   I have to buy through Amazon.com so thought that would make me a US customer


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## adanlerma

Goodness!

I think this is the most fun on a thread I've had in a very long time  

Gotta take a break, do some exercise, work on that short I want to experiment on KU with, and eat.

Hey, I'm 63, gotta keep moving the bones and muscles, flex the synapses in the brain, and re-fuel. Back after awhile, and probably enjoy the thread of comments like a quick short read on, on, gee, could be anywhere if not exclusive, right?

Yeah, I know, I had to get that last bit in  

Best wishes everyone!


----------



## Lefevre

Here is some more information.....

Basically, the catch with this is that readers must read 10% of the book for the author to be eligible for royalties from KU.

AND

Your book must be part of KDP Select for KU to apply.

Essentailly, this will add a "KU" line on your sales chart..

Here is a link that also may be of some help...

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/07/17/3-things-to-know-about-amazoncom-and-the-kindle-un.aspx


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## thesmallprint

If KU becomes hugely popular, authors will need to be fairly rewarded or Amazon lose their suppliers. No suppliers to a voracious audience, created by Amazon, well, you can work it out.

This is much more a gamble for Amazon than it is for indies. Imo, of course


----------



## Mylius Fox

My uninformed, uneducated impression is that this move could potentially serve to corral self-publishers' earnings - through pressuring them to play ball, and eventually wielding to their advantage their control over how much money is put into the collective pool. 

Of course, the same thing could ultimately be achieved by simply decreasing the royalty rate for authors in general, separate from this program, but perhaps that would make authors hedge their bets and stick with Amazon's competitors as well. Through this program, they could keep the collective pool fund nice and fat until they've weakened their competitors enough that it won't matter to them if authors then jump ship. 

IMO, the collective pool seems to take a page from communism, or it brings to mind the image of all authors being, in effect, Amazon's staff writers. Boy oh boy I hope when they do my yearly review they give me a raise this time!


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## Saul Tanpepper

Reasons to invest my work in KU:
1. Potential for more exposure.

Reasons NOT to invest my work in KU:
1. No guarantee of more exposure. In fact, if the catalog gets swamped with hastily written short works, that benefit vanishes.
2. Restricted distribution and restricted choices for readers.
3. No guarantee what the payout will be month-to-month.
4. I get 60% list price now on Oyster and Scribd.

I'll look into writing a few quick funnel books for my series and enrolling them into KU because that seems to make good business sense for now (and, incidentally, underscores the 1st point in my NOT list), but I don't see this being a boon for anyone in the long term, especially if it further erodes competition. Not good for indies, not good for readers.

(BTW, I think I read Amazon has agreements with some of the Big 5 to pay full list price royalties on books borrowed through KOLL; I presume these agreements extend to KU. If this is true, then why would indies stand to be paid slave wages?)


----------



## ElleT

I have a question, I hope it hasn't been asked. 

So we don't get paid UNTIL and IF they read 10% in a certain time period or something to that effect. So do KU borrows get added to our graphs immediately? Are they then removed if the customer doesn't do what is necessary for us to be paid? 

Since the rules have switched midgame, do we have the right to pull out without repercussions even if we have used a promo day of our Select program?


----------



## Jim Johnson

Kathelm said:


> To what end? I would argue that making some of your titles exclusive to a vendor is the opposite of diversifying. Why lock readers out of accessing some of your material?


I imagine if your non-Amazon readers are loyal enough, they'll stick around say, three months, if you tell them you're experimenting with a Select-only title. If it doesn't work for you, pull the book out of KU and post it everywhere else.


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## dmac

Thinking positively: for those who wishes to try it out, it is only 3 months. In the scheme of a writing career, that is a minor commitment. We should know very soon what kind of payment is involved, and adjust accordingly. That is our strength as our own publisher. 

Gather Information --> Analyze --> Adapt.


----------



## ElHawk

X. Aratare said:


> Unlike the permafree strategy, your first volume could ONLY be on Amazon though. Which means all those Kobo, Nook, Apple, Google people will have to go to Amazon to purchase it since they can only get volumes 2+ on those sites. I think it will inevitably cause people to resent the author for not having it available or simply turn away from that series with a shrug.


This is where a good mailing list and a strong internet presence comes into play.

At the moment, I make too much money from my four-book set to consider putting the first in my series into KU, but if I had a series with a first book in KU and the rest elsewhere, I'd make it widely known to all and sundry that they could contact me directly with any questions or complaints. If anybody contacted me to ask why they couldn't get the first book on their site of choice, I'd respond with a free EPUB copy of that book. Problem solved.

And I'd also make it very clear on my web site when each title was coming out of Select and returning to wider distribution (and specify which of my OTHER titles are currently available everywhere.)

I don't know about you guys, but my readership stays in pretty good contact with me. As long as you maintain a strong online presence and make it very easy to find your contact information, you should have no problem preventing any issues like this.

*ETA: If this ends up being a major thing, and not a flash in the pan like KOLL was for most authors who tried it, a smart strategy would also include more stand-alone books that could easily be rotated in and out of KU without leaving "orphaned" series on other sites with no Book 1. But I think it's too early to know whether it'll be as massive a game-changer as some people think it will be. It might, but it might not.


----------



## Christa Wick

I may put an underperforming pen name all in - good stories that should have found readers but haven't. If there's no length requirement, I have some Christa shorts that are dying down. I will always have titles that I presently require a premium to be paid for because this is my sole income (although thankfully I have a spouse with income to fall back on). Those titles won't always be the same. 

For everyone saying, "this is just another tool, use it (or not) in the manner that best benefits you" - I agree wholeheartedly. (The only thing I find very troubling is the audiobook component - that has a large captive content provider group and if they are being forced into this, that is very bad business on Amazon's part. I'm very thankful that, at 9 months out, I've recouped all but about $300 of my $1400 investment in audiobooks between purchases and bounties.)


----------



## Guest

I will not be joining. I have too much traction through smashwords. Though i fear this may destroy my business.

What happens when short fiction readers barrel into this program to read unlimited? It will skew the population of books being selected and read. Leaving those outside of select getting screwed. Will readers from other outlets now join here? How will the shift in readership effect other channels?

And for those inside select, you are going to have to share your earnings and not even know just exactly what you are getting.

So if you have a bundle at 4.99 maybe you get 50 cents for a borrow/unlimited dl now?

I don't like it. For a reader, at 9.95 per month they need to read at minimum ~5 titles to get their moneys worth, and they will likely read FAR more.

So think about it, that fund is going to get decimated. I think the end payout on each read will be much lower than an average royalty. if you have 100K members join, who read 5 books a piece, that is 500K reads. that is 40 cents a read distributed evenly into the Fund? What if they read 10 books a month? 20 cents a read? What if they read 20 and the readership grows, 5 cents a read?

I don't see how this benefits anyone but the reader. Time will tell, but i'm not into it. It's DEFINITELY not the same as the scribd model.


----------



## Guest

ElHawk said:


> This is where a good mailing list and a strong internet presence comes into play.
> 
> At the moment, I make too much money from my four-book set to consider putting the first in my series into KU, but if I had a series with a first book in KU and the rest elsewhere, I'd make it widely known to all and sundry that they could contact me directly with any questions or complaints. If anybody contacted me to ask why they couldn't get the first book on their site of choice, I'd respond with a free EPUB copy of that book. Problem solved.
> 
> And I'd also make it very clear on my web site when each title was coming out of Select and returning to wider distribution (and specify which of my OTHER titles are currently available everywhere.)
> 
> I don't know about you guys, but my readership stays in pretty good contact with me. As long as you maintain a strong online presence and make it very easy to find your contact information, you should have no problem preventing any issues like this.
> 
> *ETA: If this ends up being a major thing, and not a flash in the pan like KOLL was for most authors who tried it, a smart strategy would also include more stand-alone books that could easily be rotated in and out of KU without leaving "orphaned" series on other sites with no Book 1. But I think it's too early to know whether it'll be as massive a game-changer as some people think it will be. It might, but it might not.


So if you don't have a strong internet presence and mailing list, then it's kaput right? I mean, KU Vs Permafree. Being successful is not default. But no matter how successful you are, there will be readers who come across the books at another retailer, see there's no book one and then... DONT email you to find out where the first book is. Um.. That seems like that would be the norm to me. And why are we throwing permafree titles into KU in the first place...?? Doesn't anyone remember how Countdown "visibility" worked?


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

Well, I for one won't be enrolling in KDP Select no matter what they offer. I don't think it's in my long-term interests to invest so heavily in one retail platform. I've been out of Select since 2012 and the move has helped me expand my audience. At the end of the day, I think for me at least, the best move is to learn to market effectively so that I can sell books on all the platforms and to also exploit my copyrights to the fullest. As a side note, I was a subscriber to Netflix streaming and recently cancelled my subscription because I could never find the movies I wanted to watch. It seemed to me that the A-players were not selling a streaming license to Netflix. I got so tired of watching movies just because they were what was available at the time that I eventually cancelled my subscription. Hell, the library (at least in Seattle) has a better selection of movies than Netflix streaming. All that to say that this all-you-can-eat book buffet model is still experimental and there is no guarantee that it will translate into big bucks (or even modest revenue) for authors because some readers may avoid it if they can't find the A-players.  I also think a deal breaker for me is that I must be exclusive to Amazon to get involved. And there's just no way I'm doing that.


----------



## EC

Bluehorseshoe said:


> I will not be joining. I have too much traction through smashwords. Though i fear this may destroy my business.
> 
> What happens when short fiction readers barrel into this program to read unlimited? It will skew the population of books being selected and read. Leaving those outside of select getting screwed. Will readers from other outlets now join here? How will the shift in readership effect other channels?
> 
> And for those inside select, you are going to have to share your earnings and not even know just exactly what you are getting.
> 
> So if you have a bundle at 4.99 maybe you get 50 cents for a borrow/unlimited dl now?
> 
> I don't like it. For a reader, at 9.95 per month they need to read at minimum ~5 titles to get their moneys worth, and they will likely read FAR more.
> 
> So think about it, that fund is going to get decimated. I think the end payout on each read will be much lower than an average royalty. if you have 100K members join, who read 5 books a piece, that is 500K reads. that is 40 cents a read distributed evenly into the Fund? What if they read 10 books a month? 20 cents a read? What if they read 20 and the readership grows, 5 cents a read?
> 
> I don't see how this benefits anyone but the reader. Time will tell, but i'm not into it. It's DEFINITELY not the same as the scribd model.


If it benefits the reader I'm all for it. I hope 10 million readers sign up for it and that the fund goes through the roof.

Happy days if that come's to pass.


----------



## 77071

Just joined the free trial, and it turns out you can borrow 10 at a time, then have to return some before you can get more.  (Maybe somebody already shared that--if so, sorry!)

Yeah, it turns out there are a LOT of stories I want to read.


----------



## Colin

FYI.

It was briefly mentioned 'up-thread' that since today's KU launch, you can now remove any book from Select before the end of its enrollment period.

I have a book that I wanted to spring from the 'Select jail' for marketing/exclusivity reasons - so I contacted KDP earlier today to say please could you remove the book from KDP Select/Kindle Unlimited. It was removed within hours and there's no issues with re-enrolling it back into Select, but you can only do so after the book's original enrollment end date.


----------



## Vaalingrade

No way they can maintain that.

No way some authors won't completely screw them on that.

Edit: Thread moves too fast. Was in reference tot he 'paid full royalty' thing.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

"I'd like to know where Hugh's 2 USD math comes from."

I'm pretty sure Hugh is referring to the general trend that the per borrow value has held steady around $2 since Feb 2012, a few months after the Select inception. For most months since then, it's been higher...there are a few exception months when the per borrow value dipped below $2, but not many. My only negative reaction to this (all of my books are in Select) was the same as Hugh's. If the per borrow value dips below the $2 trend, I'll reconsider my position, especially if volume doesn't maintain my current average royalty income. 

For one of my series, the math is acceptable assuming roughly $2 per borrow and a higher volume. The royalty paid for all four books (if bought separately) is $14.70. If a reader buys the first in my series and moves to the bundle, I make $10.50 (currently the most likely scenario—85% of all follow-on purchases go to the bundle). If a reader burns through all four books using Unlimited, I make $8. Volume will decide this for me. If more readers move on to books 2-4 because they're "free" and experience (reading and sampling) is zero hassle, I can see this working out nicely. 

Everyone's situation is different. If you're diversified outside of Amazon, I don't see this dragging you in, unless it turns out to be a boon for everyone. If you're ensconced in Select, I don't see anything to lose (for now), and you always have the option of getting out within 90 days (or whatever remains). The tough call is for the folks on the fence. Nothing but speculation right now. Frankly, either course of action can be a total gamble. Some see awesome success diversifying to other platforms. Some see the same in Select. Many haven't in one or both scenarios. I never recommend that someone uses either strategy, because the result is different for everyone. You have to make your own decision here. Either way, you can always adjust your strategy later. 90 days if you're in Select, more or less immediately if you're not. 

Good luck!


----------



## Quiss

HSh said:


> Just joined the free trial, and...
> Yeah, it turns out there are a LOT of stories I want to read.


And there go everyone else's sale for the next couple of months. Thank you, Amazon.


----------



## Guest

Non select books are going to get destroyed. Wait and see.


----------



## Mr. RAD

Not sure if this has been posted already, but here's a TechCrunch article regarding Kindle Unlimited. It's something to think about.

Amazon Isn't Killing Writing, The Market Is


----------



## Peter Salisbury

I just found the official KU email from KDP in my inbox announcing that KU exists, US only.

Apologies to the folks who are enthusiastic about this (everyone is free to go their own way) but my response is - no way, ever - I don't care if I don't sell another book through Amazon, I will not play exclusivity games.


----------



## dmac

On reflection:

Books will still have to be good. The first few chapters still have to kill. The cover still has to entice. Being on a bestseller list, either in a niche category or in general, will still matter. Along with reviews and word of mouth. 

People's reading time is still precious, and reading a book (unless we are talking about these 10-page pseudo "books") still takes longer than a few days, unlike Netflix, where watching a movie is 2 hours or 40 minutes for a TV show.

Just because you can download and read an unlimited number of books does not necessarily mean you will just because "you can." 

Having said all that: I envy all you erotica short story writers.


----------



## wtvr

There's another thread on the board for KU Strategies, for those of you who aren't taking your football and going home.

I really do hope the fund goes over 2 million. That stampede is going to be hungry.

Anyone considering a new pen name should sharpen their pencils. This is a reboot - go!


----------



## Guest

this isnt going to be good for short fiction... i think this will seriously crater average earnings per story.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Luckily, though, I anticipated a honeypot using Select that would screw us all and am now prepared to implement it by September.

Step 1: Focus on other channels. Just like with Countdown, a ton of people will stampede to the new thing that will ultimately hurt them, thereby reducing competition on other channels. Seeing as the REST OF THE FREAKING WORLD uses these channels, someone needs to accept their waiting eyes and money.

Step 2: To Allay Free-no-cide, break glass. New prequels for RB and The Descendants are nearing completion. Not for KU, but for ever other channel should Amazon purge free. The original book 1's become 99 cents and the prequels got up free everywhere else.

Step 3: Sate the Amazon Reader. If Amazon won't let me give thier readers free books on thier site, I'll give them free books on my site. .MOBIs of the new free prequels (and all other formats) will be made available on the site and advertised in the Amazon Book 1's. The site will explain exactly why they couldn't get these on Amazon and where to direct their complaints.


----------



## ElHawk

ShaneJeffery said:


> So if you don't have a strong internet presence and mailing list, then it's kaput right? I mean, KU Vs Permafree. Being successful is not default. But no matter how successful you are, there will be readers who come across the books at another retailer, see there's no book one and then... DONT email you to find out where the first book is. Um.. That seems like that would be the norm to me. And why are we throwing permafree titles into KU in the first place...?? Doesn't anyone remember how Countdown "visibility" worked?


No, not everybody HAS to use it. I just don't see this taking over the entire ebook scene. It's another version of a permafree-like strategy you can use to direct people to your books. 99 cents didn't stop people from buying more expensive books. Permafree didn't make people stop buying full-price books. KOLL/Select/Prime didn't stop people from buying books, and buying them on others sites. BookBub didn't make people stop buying all books which weren't promoted on BookBub.

This is not the end of the world. But the world always changes. You just need to ask yourself how you're going to adapt to the changes it presents and keep your business chugging along.

Somebody already brought up Jeff Bezos's infamous quote earlier in this thread, but it's worth repeating: "Complaining is not a strategy."


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

Vaalingrade said:


> Luckily, though, I anticipated a honeypot using Select that would screw us all and am now prepared to implement it by September.
> 
> Step 1: Focus on other channels. Just like with Countdown, a ton of people will stampede to the new thing that will ultimately hurt them, thereby reducing competition on other channels. Seeing as the REST OF THE FREAKING WORLD uses these channels, someone needs to accept their waiting eyes and money.
> 
> Step 2: To Allay Free-no-cide, break glass. New prequels for RB and The Descendants are nearing completion. Not for KU, but for ever other channel should Amazon purge free. The original book 1's become 99 cents and the prequels got up free everywhere else.
> 
> Step 3: Sate the Amazon Reader. If Amazon won't let me give thier readers free books on thier site, I'll give them free books on my site. .MOBIs of the new free prequels (and all other formats) will be made available on the site and advertised in the Amazon Book 1's. The site will explain exactly why they couldn't get these on Amazon and where to direct their complaints.


Smart. More strategizing. Less speculating. I think if everyone focused on their situation and formed a strategy like this, they will do fine...including those that jump into KU or stay along for the KU ride.


----------



## 77071

Quiss said:


> And there go everyone else's sale for the next couple of months. Thank you, Amazon.


Yeah, I doubt it, actually. I can't see cutting back on "gotta reads" that aren't on any subscription model.

I'm already on Scribd. I'm buying approximately a book a day from Dreamspinner with their current Christmas in July sales, and now I'm checking out that Penny Marshall biography on Amazon and a whole bunch of other stuff I wanted to read but couldn't quite afford just now.

I'm just concerned that I'll be hemorrhaging money with purchases PLUS two subscription plans, if this keeps up. So I'll have to choose which subscription I want to keep, probably. But not for at least a month.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Steven Konkoly said:


> they will do fine...including those that jump into KU or stay along for the KU ride.


Haha. No that won't.


----------



## Colin

ElHawk said:


> This is not the end of the world. But the world always changes. You just need to ask yourself how you're going to adapt to the changes it presents and keep your business chugging along.


This.


----------



## richard.r.fox

One of the underlying questions seems to be, "Will I make less money because of KU?" 

The payout, and correct me if I'm wrong, depends on the value of the monthly fund and the number of qualified reads (>10%). 
This is NOT how Oyster/Scribd do it. So there is 2 million USD in the fund. If there are 4 million qualified downloads, each author's qualified reads nets him/her 50 cents. The variables are simple, amount of money in the fund and the amount of qualified downloads. 

For breadcrumb/funnel or 99 cent titles, this is decent. For 4.99 titles we had out there in Prime to capture the on-the-fence reader with their monthly lending credit, this is lousy. Someone else said this, and I agree, short form naughty stories will do gangbusters. If we can't make enough money in KU, we aren't going to participate. 

Now, keep this in mind before too many of us engage in the author stereotype of liver abuse, books are not fungible. Readers like what they like and one sci-fi story is never just as good as another sci-fi story. KU is great for discoverability, and readers will follow us into the non-KU land if they like what they read. I don't care how many free titles are available, I will buy Dan Abnett's latest the second it comes out on the Black Library. 

It will be interesting to see how many KU readers refuse to move beyond the buffet. The next series of Author Earnings reports (thanks Hugh and Data Guy!) will be helpful. 

I am irked that KU exists within Prime jail. Non-Indie books don't seem to have this problem. But for all the goodness that being Indie comes with, I can learn to live with Prime jail.


----------



## Jim Johnson

ElHawk said:


> Somebody already brought up Jeff Bezos's infamous quote earlier in this thread, but it's worth repeating: "Complaining is not a strategy."


I brought that up but it rapidly got buried under the speculation.  On the one hand, I sympathize with folks who already have titles out there and have to adjust to another change. On the other hand, the market has changed consistently for the last few years. This looks to be another ripple that authors need to adjust to. The only constant is change, and as you pointed out earlier, we have to be flexible and agile.

For me, a writer who'll start publishing later this year, it's just another data point to add to my business plan and consider, along with every other option out there. I'll totally try out Select and KU/KOLL with some of my publications. It's a three-month commitment. That's a drop in the bucket for my freelance writing career.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

Vaalingrade said:


> Haha. No that won't.


Either choice, you have to stay the course to find out. Neither side of Rome was built in a day.


----------



## dmac

richard.r.fox said:


> The payout, and correct me if I'm wrong, depends on the value of the monthly fund and the number of qualified reads (>10%).
> This is NOT how Oyster/Scribd do it. So there is 2 million USD in the fund. If there are 1 million qualified downloads, each author's qualified reads nets him/her 50 cents. The variables are simple, amount of money in the fund and the amount of qualified downloads.


Would $2 million divided by 1 million not be ... $2 each? Or is my math off?


----------



## Christa Wick

In case it hasn't been discussed here already - if you use perma-free and we find out Amazon is going to stop allowing perma-free, then you take your perma-free books (I have 4 on Amazon right now) and bundle them for 99 cents. I did this on B&N before D2D opened up with perma-free and it worked really well for at least a few months. AND you can also get some other people in your genre who have also lost perma-free and still really want it and have it be 20 first in series/serial books for 99 cents or something like that. You'll hit the USA Today list maybe (maybe even NYT) and still effectively get your perma-free. It will also boost your author rank, maybe getting you into the top 100 of your genre or subcategories or maybe even the top 100 overall (I've had that happen with 3 of the 5 bundles I've been in for Amazon top 100). So KU could increase author cooperation, which is always a good thing for sales IMO. 

We just need to "Keep Calm and Carry On" to borrow from Mr. Adams and remember that every challenge is also an opportunity (to borrow from someone else whose name I cannot remember).

... false "edited to add":



> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Winston Churchill


----------



## Rykymus

I'm not going to react. I'm going to sit patiently and watch what happens. Some will benefit, others will not. The same has been true for every change. This one will either work or it won't. Only time will tell.

I agree that the sky is not falling. At least not today.


----------



## richard.r.fox

dmac said:


> Would $2 million divided by 1 million not be ... $2 each? Or is my math off?


Yes! Edited original post. Thanks for the sharp eyes.


----------



## abishop

The big question for me isn't what happens to books enrolled in KU, but what happens to those that aren't.  If people can get as many books as they want to read in KU, how many are simply going to balk at paying full price for individual books?  This seems like it will especially be a problem for people who write in genres with voracious readers who are more interested in genre than author.  For literary writers whose works aren't easily replaceable it might be less of an issue - you can't just keep browsing until you find another Dave Eggers.  But you could certainly keep browsing until you find another space opera or FBI thriller.  How many people who read those kinds of things are going to be compelled enough to search outside of KU?  Are authors who refuse to go the KU route just going to be frozen out of the market?


----------



## jackiegp

Saul Tanpepper said:


> Reasons to invest my work in KU:
> 1. Potential for more exposure.
> 
> Reasons NOT to invest my work in KU:
> 1. No guarantee of more exposure. In fact, if the catalog gets swamped with hastily written short works, that benefit vanishes.
> 2. Restricted distribution and restricted choices for readers.
> 3. No guarantee what the payout will be month-to-month.
> 4. I get 60% list price now on Oyster and Scribd.
> 
> I'll look into writing a few quick funnel books for my series and enrolling them into KU because that seems to make good business sense for now (and, incidentally, underscores the 1st point in my NOT list), but I don't see this being a boon for anyone in the long term, especially if it further erodes competition. Not good for indies, not good for readers.
> 
> (BTW, I think I read Amazon has agreements with some of the Big 5 to pay full list price royalties on books borrowed through KOLL; I presume these agreements extend to KU. If this is true, then why would indies stand to be paid slave wages?)


You are right. Trad pub must be benefiting from this plan or they would never play. And Indies are discardable all of a sudden in the Amazon world, it seems. The information I have state I will get a share of a pool of money for each book sold...no wording that indicates I will get my indicated royalty rate...just an indescript share. For those already selling well, the shares will be a plenty...for those struggling...it equates to zero...creating a class system.


----------



## Fishbowl Helmet

I get that Amazon is a godsend to many, but surely this ploy can be seen for what it is? They're going to short-change the writers here. Every month. It's not a question of if, rather when. And not really even when, it's going to happen the second their royalty payouts exceed their desired profit margin for KU. They're using a fund now because it's just starting and it's a free month. It's the perfect set up to get writers scrambling for a smaller and smaller slice of the pie.

Once people start signing up for this service, the royalties will be funded, but, people will read more than "their share" of payment. Guaranteed. That's the whole point of services like this. You think you're getting a great deal at the all you can eat place, but the food is [crappy] and cheap, and the employees are paid crap. The house makes money hand-over-fist. Just like Amazon will insist on doing here. You can already see it with their "We've only got X dollars, so..." *shrug*

When the price of the salad bar (that's us) starts eating into their profit margins they'll do one of two things: Stop the program or Pay writers less. As long as the Zon is making money, do you really think they'll voluntarily end the program? Neither do I. They'll pay writers less. I get the knee-jerk reaction to assume Zon will deal squarely with writers, but they're a massive profit making machine that will do anything to increase their revenue, just like any other company.

They're not doing this to be nice, they're doing this to make money. You can see the result from other similar services, the artists make less.

This will end badly for writers.


----------



## jackiegp

abishop said:


> The big question for me isn't what happens to books enrolled in KU, but what happens to those that aren't. If people can get as many books as they want to read in KU, how many are simply going to balk at paying full price for individual books? This seems like it will especially be a problem for people who write in genres with voracious readers who are more interested in genre than author. For literary writers whose works aren't easily replaceable it might be less of an issue - you can't just keep browsing until you find another Dave Eggers. But you could certainly keep browsing until you find another space opera or FBI thriller. How many people who read those kinds of things are going to be compelled enough to search outside of KU? Are authors who refuse to go the KU route just going to be frozen out of the market?
> 
> Presently, I have a book in and one out. I just clicked on the one out of the program and got this note: Unfortunately we don't have any recommendations for you based on this book choice. Another words. This is not FREE, and we have no FREE recommends for you based on this book. Those not in, are being penalized. When I click on the one that is in the program. It states it can be taken and gives a list of other recommends.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Genre is going to be important to making actual sales rather than being paid in gruel out of a big cartoon pot.

Nerd Genre I imagine is safe. Readers there hunt for very specific things and often in niches. The 'buffet' won't be as useful to these folks because what's the point of paying for all you can eat if there's only two or three things you want and no guarantee they'll be there? Disposable income what it is, they'll probably still have a subscription, but they'll still actually buy books if they appeal to them.

Genres that are bulk-reads though best prepare for the rich taste of boiled millet.


----------



## X. Aratare

ElHawk said:


> This is where a good mailing list and a strong internet presence comes into play.
> 
> At the moment, I make too much money from my four-book set to consider putting the first in my series into KU, but if I had a series with a first book in KU and the rest elsewhere, I'd make it widely known to all and sundry that they could contact me directly with any questions or complaints. If anybody contacted me to ask why they couldn't get the first book on their site of choice, I'd respond with a free EPUB copy of that book. Problem solved.
> 
> And I'd also make it very clear on my web site when each title was coming out of Select and returning to wider distribution (and specify which of my OTHER titles are currently available everywhere.)
> 
> I don't know about you guys, but my readership stays in pretty good contact with me. As long as you maintain a strong online presence and make it very easy to find your contact information, you should have no problem preventing any issues like this.
> 
> *ETA: If this ends up being a major thing, and not a flash in the pan like KOLL was for most authors who tried it, a smart strategy would also include more stand-alone books that could easily be rotated in and out of KU without leaving "orphaned" series on other sites with no Book 1. But I think it's too early to know whether it'll be as massive a game-changer as some people think it will be. It might, but it might not.


You make some good points. However ...

While I agree with you that having close contact with your readers is key (I actually have a subscription site where 99.9% of my readers pay me monthly to see my updates) you can't gain new readership at those other sites if Volume 1 isn't there. There will, of course, be people who will be so interested in your book that they will hunt it down no matter what the annoyance, but many won't. Any obstacle to trying your work makes it less likely it will sell (think permafree as opposed to $.99, what's a buck? well, its enough that people didn't do well until they were free).

Also, people have discussed how individual books, even if the author has other works, do not have the sell-thru that series have so putting an individual book in Kindle Unlimited/Select will not be as effective as the permafree has seemed to be.

For my part, I can't be exclusive with Amazon as I give my members at my site everything and I would be cutting off my nose to spite my face if I went all in with Amazon (also Amazon and the other retailers have sometimes decided that my gay work is ahem not worthy and having to check every day multiple times a day to see if something has been dungeoned for the 15th time is a pain). Maybe I'll give the members something free for a time and enroll it in Select to see if I can cross sell my own platform which is also a subscription model.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Hey, folks, I've merged two threads discussing the scoop on KU....

Betsy


----------



## Marie Long

This model sounds no different than Oyster and Scribd. What is Amazon doing differently? They are obviously trying to get more people to use Select, as the option to take advantage of Kindle Unlimited sounds like it would only apply to books that are enrolled in Select.

So you probably won't be able to use KU for books that are not in Select.


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

Jim Johnson said:


> This looks to be another ripple that authors need to adjust to. The only constant is change, and as you pointed out earlier, we have to be flexible and agile.


I think this goes to the heart of much of the angst being expressed here. If KU is just a ripple, then no adjustment is necessary. Stay the course, do what's working for you. If we try to react to every change that comes along, we risk ending up with no direction at all.

Unfortunately, we don't know whether this will be more than a ripple. Nevertheless, if we look back on all the changes Amazon/KDP has implemented over the past few years, only a few have had major impacts on how we conduct our business. Select/Free worked well, but its benefits were short-lived. The change Amazon made to its affiliate marketers terms regarding free had just as dramatic effect on the effectiveness of marketing and exposure. What really never panned out for most of us? Kindle Singles, Kindle Serials, Kindle Countdown, KOLL... Given that this is restricted to select titles and isn't new, I suspect its effects may not be that dramatic.


----------



## CaraS.

I am new here, but really finding a lot of information I didn't know. I've had a few of my novels at Amazon for the Kindle about 9 months. However, I did no promotion until I had a dozen online; books had been written in the 80s/90s and published in the very early ebook market (I retained all rights when publisher went out of business.)

Anyway, I am not sure how the KU will work out for me. I have priced all my work at .99 cents, and in the past 3 months I've received royalties. Nothing to brag about, but the books I promoted continue to sell every day. Since I price so low though, I actually have been earning more for the books borrowed via KDP. 

I'll take a "wait & see" stance. (As an aside, showing my ignorance: how do you make a book perma-free?)


----------



## jackiegp

ShaneJeffery said:


> Josef Black, you steal the thread again. I cannot see how authors making a living on sales can view giving them away at a reduced price is a good thing. Hugh throws out the $2 doorstopper which is fine and all, but seriously, will Amazon? They couldn't have been less quiet on this front to authors - really - them not explaining things properly due ahead of time is no accident.


AGREED! Keeping your front line workers (which we all are to Amazon now, sadly) in the dark about their pay is never leads to a win win situation. I for one don't think they care if it falls below $2 for authors, as long as they benefit from the 100% of 9.99/mon. model. I think this is going to create a tiered system all right, upper class best sellers get more of the pot, while struggling authors get cut rate royalties and low visibility. The rich get richer, and the poor have no control over their income...


----------



## JeffreyKafer

Have we heard anything definitive about how Audiobooks are going to work in this model? Enquiring narrator minds want to know.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

"They're going to short-change the writers here. Every month. It's not a question of if, rather when. And not really even when, it's going to happen the second their royalty payouts exceed their desired profit margin for KU. They're using a fund now because it's just starting and it's a free month. It's the perfect set up to get writers scrambling for a smaller and smaller slice of the pie."

They've always used a fund. The original Global Fund started at $500K in late 2011, and has adjusted every month from that point. Per borrow pay outs have remained steady at $2.20 for nearly two years, with the very occasional rise or dip. Everyone said the same thing with KOLL, and it didn't happen...granted, this is a different system.

I won't speculate on anyone's fate, except my own. I'll be fine.


----------



## Guest

Steven Konkoly said:


> Per borrow pay outs have remained steady at $2.20 for nearly two years, with the very occasional rise or dip. Everyone said the same thing with KOLL, and it didn't happen...granted, this is a different system.


Which is fine and dandy is you sell short books at $3 and under. Not so great when you sell books above $4. Particularly those of us who have good sales outside of Amazon, The pool fund already undercuts my normal royalty rate and provides no incentive for me to give up other channels just for the privileged of Amazon paying me less money than I would otherwise make.


----------



## X. Aratare

Steven Konkoly said:


> "They're going to short-change the writers here. Every month. It's not a question of if, rather when. And not really even when, it's going to happen the second their royalty payouts exceed their desired profit margin for KU. They're using a fund now because it's just starting and it's a free month. It's the perfect set up to get writers scrambling for a smaller and smaller slice of the pie."
> 
> They've always used a fund. The original Global Fund started at $500K in late 2011, and has adjusted every month from that point. Per borrow pay outs have remained steady at $2.20 for nearly two years, with the very occasional rise or dip. Everyone said the same thing with KOLL, and it didn't happen...granted, this is a different system.
> 
> I won't speculate on anyone's fate, except my own. I'll be fine.


While I think every one hopes this is the case, here's the rub. Unlike KOLL, there is NO LIMIT to the amount of books people read. It's not one borrow a month, which I as a prime member never used b/c its one book (but I should have to benefit an indie). Despite there being unlimited reads, Amazon increased the pot by only $800k this month. 1 book a month versus unlimited books and that's worth only $800k? Uhm, I'm sorry, but no.

Scribd and Oyster do not have a finite pot of money for authors (which Amazon is clearly shortchanging this time around as opposed to overfilling). They do it based on sales. Why can't Amazon do it based on sales instead of a pot? The only way authors are ahead is if the pot is somehow larger than the uses and that simply won't happen with the unlimited model. Romance readers alone who are voracious in a way you wouldn't believe will grab this and ... I can tell you that I could see the price paid to indies be as low as pennies a book if Amazon stays on this course.

EDIT: Julie's point, too.


----------



## wtvr

Prorated, Amazon is adding $1.6 million to the pot for July, because half the month is gone already before KU came in. I prefer to think they more than doubled it at the second half.  

Additionally, the first 30 days is free, so it's not a consumer pot they're sharing with us, it's a good faith payout on pro rata estimates of subscriptions.

What the actual pot will be, 30 days hence (when subscriber $ actually begins to accumulate) is anyone's guess.


----------



## SunshineOnMe

What if your book doesn't appear on any of the categories? My book is in KU, but not listed on their category page.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Which is fine and dandy is you sell short books at $3 and under. Not so great when you sell books above $4. Particularly those of us who have good sales outside of Amazon, The pool fund already undercuts my normal royalty rate and provides no incentive for me to give up other channels just for the privileged of Amazon paying me less money than I would otherwise make.


True, if you're selling well outside of Amazon, it's not an incentive. Likewise, if there is no increase in sales volume based on increased visibility, there is no incentive. For your EXACT scenario, this is not attractive, unless KU pulls readers from other channels and/or becomes a sales boon for Selecters. I've lived in both worlds and KOLL returns have FAR outweighed what I've seen outside of Amazon from a visibility standpoint and a pure sales perspective. Amazon would have to give me a reason to leave Select. KU does not appear to be that reason...right now. That may change. I'm always ready to make a move based.


----------



## dmac

What is $1.6 million or $2 million or even $20 million to Amazon? Couch money? I would like to believe they will go as high as they need to if there is demand for KU, in order to take out their competitors. 

But maybe that is just wishful thinking on my part.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

"While I think every one hopes this is the case, here's the rub.  Unlike KOLL, there is NO LIMIT to the amount of books people read. It's not one borrow a month, which I as a prime member never used b/c its one book (but I should have to benefit an indie).  Despite there being unlimited reads, Amazon increased the pot by only $800k this month.  1 book a month versus unlimited books and that's worth only $800k?  Uhm, I'm sorry, but no."

You're assuming that there is no human decision making process involved in the Global Fund. They have a few eyes on this, especially now.


----------



## 4eyesbooks

I sell mostly children's picture books on Amazon and I'm not sure whether to be excited about this announcement or cautious.  My books are all priced at $2.99 or under.  There are 52,475 other children's books in KU, but only 460 books in the Bugs/Spiders category for example.  Could this bring more visibility to those who are in the program....quite possibly....until the categories get more titles added.  For me, if the borrow rate stays around $2 I will be happy, but we don't know what that will be yet.  Kids/Parents can be voracious readers so maybe my numbers will increase.  It will be easy on a picture book to read 10% to get payment for KU since the books are so short.....that sounds nice. 

Taking the wait and see approach with this news.....


----------



## JumpingShip

X. Aratare said:


> While I think every one hopes this is the case, here's the rub. Unlike KOLL, there is NO LIMIT to the amount of books people read. It's not one borrow a month, which I as a prime member never used b/c its one book (but I should have to benefit an indie). Despite there being unlimited reads, Amazon increased the pot by only $800k this month. 1 book a month versus unlimited books and that's worth only $800k? Uhm, I'm sorry, but no.
> 
> Scribd and Oyster do not have a finite pot of money for authors (which Amazon is clearly shortchanging this time around as opposed to overfilling). They do it based on sales. Why can't Amazon do it based on sales instead of a pot? The only way authors are ahead is if the pot is somehow larger than the uses and that simply won't happen with the unlimited model. Romance readers alone who are voracious in a way you wouldn't believe will grab this and ... I can tell you that I could see the price paid to indies be as low as pennies a book if Amazon stays on this course.
> 
> EDIT: Julie's point, too.


This month only has 13 more days in it, and most people outside of those in the writing world, have still not heard of KU. The avid readers will, of course, but the more casual readers who still might be interested, will not. Or they may wait to try their free trial in August to keep their billing to a certain time of the month. Who knows? I just think it's pretty good.


----------



## dmac

Steven Konkoly said:


> "While I think every one hopes this is the case, here's the rub. Unlike KOLL, there is NO LIMIT to the amount of books people read. It's not one borrow a month, which I as a prime member never used b/c its one book (but I should have to benefit an indie). Despite there being unlimited reads, Amazon increased the pot by only $800k this month. 1 book a month versus unlimited books and that's worth only $800k? Uhm, I'm sorry, but no."
> 
> You're assuming that there is no human decision making process involved in the Global Fund. They have a few eyes on this, especially now.


I am personally waiting to see what Steven Konkoly does, then I will follow.


----------



## ElleT

Has y'all's KOLL/KU increased by a huge amount today as well?


----------



## dmac

ElleT said:


> Has y'all's KOLL/KU increased by a huge amount today as well?


Yes. Mine has already doubled my average by noon. I usually get 20-25 a day. It is well over that. By noon.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Mandy said:


> Does anyone know if we will be able to borrow different books simultaneously across all devices under one account? That's the deciding factor for me; I'd like for my kids to be able to borrow their own books.


Mandy -- it's under discussion in Let's Talk Kindle as well from a reader's perspective . . . . . .


----------



## Maia Sepp Ross

I don't normally feel strongly about new industry developments, but add me to those who are not hugely impressed. If there was no exclusivity requirement I'd have less reservations, but I don't want to have to pull my titles from other stores. And I'm trying to make a living at this. So it's depressing.


----------



## Jim Johnson

LisaGloria said:


> What the actual pot will be, 30 days hence (when subscriber $ actually begins to accumulate) is anyone's guess.


Granted we haven't seen any evidence one way or the other, but I don't think the number of subscribers directly impacts the monthly pool of money available. I think the money going in to Amazon from subscribers and the money available for Select authors are contained in two separate buckets.


----------



## wtvr

Jim Johnson said:


> Granted we haven't seen any evidence one way or the other, but I don't think the number of subscribers directly impacts the monthly pool of money available. I think the money going in to Amazon from subscribers and the money available for Select authors are contained in two separate buckets.


OK, so if there is no direct correlation, then Amazon is aiming us toward a particular per-unit price. Since that was always around $2, it may stay that way for a while.

If there is a correlation, they could still be aiming us toward that one price by adjusting the correlation every month... Or we will see lower author payments during the warmup phase that gradually climb as readership inevitably dwindles toward what Scribd sees, which is 2% of its subscribers reading >10 titles a month.


----------



## EC

maiasepp said:


> I don't normally feel strongly about new industry developments, but add me to those who are not hugely impressed. If there was no exclusivity requirement I'd have less reservations, but I don't want to have to pull my titles from other stores. And I'm trying to make a living at this. So it's depressing.


On the bright side it is US only - and not every US customer will sign up immediately to KU. Unlike the ACX debacle earlier this year we'll have time to evaluate what to do next.


----------



## dmac

Jim Johnson said:


> Granted we haven't seen any evidence one way or the other, but I don't think the number of subscribers directly impacts the monthly pool of money available. I think the money going in to Amazon from subscribers and the money available for Select authors are contained in two separate buckets.


Yes. And as I said previously, $1 or $2 or even $20 million is nothing to Amazon if their intent is to take Scribd and Oyster's authors away from them.


----------



## Guest

check your keywords and watch the ascent of the kindle unlimited titles eclipse your own, am doing it in real time. the game is over folks.


----------



## Christopher Bunn

All things considered, I'm more of a reader than a writer, so this KU setup sounds great. I'm going to sign up and read a lot of books that I might otherwise have passed up.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

dmac said:


> I am personally waiting to see what Steven Konkoly does, then I will follow.


Don't do that!


----------



## Vaalingrade

Bluehorseshoe said:


> check your keywords and watch the ascent of the kindle unlimited titles eclipse your own, am doing it in real time. the game is over folks.


*fondly pats B&N sales boom* Not for all of us.

Beside,s I'm going to be making something like 20 times what they are for every sale soon enough.

Once again, the prudent and diverse portfolio pays off for the savvy investor.


----------



## Guest

Bluehorseshoe said:


> check your keywords and watch the ascent of the kindle unlimited titles eclipse your own, am doing it in real time. the game is over folks.


For people who are completely dependent on Amazon for sales, maybe. For the rest of us, it's just another day.

The people who are going to the most impacted by these are people who depend on free + Bookbub to boost sales and drive the majority of their sales through Amazon in specific high-consumption genres. This will most likely impact romance, YA, and NA authors the most, because those readers tend to be the ones who consume lots of books a month. But as has been noted, if you are a writer who publishes in a specialized niche or a genre in which the demographic is not high-consumption, then this won't change anything.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Vaalingrade said:


> *fondly pats B&N sales boom*


I'm pretty sure fondling sales booms is against Forum Decorum.....


----------



## dragontucker

Hey guys I am new here and a new author. I had to sign up and stop lurking to talk about this change 

I have put a lot of thought into this and I have a couple of things that I wanted to share.

1. This seems like a good opportunity for new indie writers. This gives readers a chance to "discover" you without taking a chance. Since they already paid the $10 a month fee they are not taking a chance on a brand new or not well known author. If they read 10% you get paid 

2. When marketing with facebook ads many people will already have kindle unlimited soon. So you get a new reader without them even having to pay. You just got to find your crowd and put the ad in front of them. If they read 10% you get paid 

3. If readers like your novel they will read another book of yours. You can make list your first book in the series in Kindle Unlimited and put a link to your second book in it. That way you could sale the 2nd book for maybe $1.99 or something.

4. It seems like you could make your novels shorter and the readers would not care since they get them all for free. But in return you will get paid for each novel.

5. Seems like shorter works might do better. I know when I get "unlimited" access to stuff I tend to jump around more from thing to thing. So I am in the fantasy genre and think I will write shorter works at say 8-20k words.

I think in the end if you are an entertaining writer and people like your work you can figure out a way to make money from it. At least we are getting in on the "ground floor." LOL

That being said I am not even done with my first novel yet. So I got to get done so I can get on this while its going on early. Just a few thoughts I wanted to share with everyone


----------



## B&amp;H

dmac said:


> Yes. And as I said previously, $1 or $2 or even $20 million is nothing to Amazon if their intent is to take Scribd and Oyster's authors away from them.


the math doesn't work out like that.

lets start with 1 million kindle users on board. that is 10M subscription monies. Of course this isn't new money. That is 10M those people are no longer spending on other kindle titles. Lets imagine for a minute that contains some of kindles biggest spenders who spent on average 30-50 USD a month on books and suddenly Amazon has swapped 30M to 50M of revenue for 10M.

Out of that 10M Amazon decides it wants 50 percent. A logical move, Amazon is pushing for more margin off trads, it is a good way to offset the 70 percent it needs on KDP to keep apple at bay.

So that is 5 million in the kitty. Each reader averages 10 reads a month. lets face it the big whales will be doing a book a day if we count in novellas so there will be lots of early adopters hitting the service for 30-50 reads a month. But we'll go with 10 average, so that is 10 million reads / 5m pool = 0.50 cents a read.

For Amazon to match KOLL rates they'd have to subsidise every read by 1.50 - that is 15M USD a month (180M a year). Possible.

Now lets imagine 10 million people get on the KU bandwagon. Suddenly the same numbers mean's amazon has 10x the amount to deal with. Their subsidy just jumped to 150m a month - 1.8 BILLION p.a. Probably about twice the entire revenue from Kindle in its entirety. Amazon could BUY scribd and Oyster for less than that. If we were talking 20 million subscribers and 3.6 Billion in subsidy a year they might as well buy Simon & Schuster and Hachette to go with it.

There is no way Amazon is going to line the pockets of indies with 1.8 billion a year when they have shown such willingness to bend over and take it lining up to give books away for free/permafree and take whatever they offer on KOLL.

And while scribd may get less than 2 percent whales, I would wager the number will be huge on Kindle. Kindle Romance readers are the most voracious in the reading world so I'm pretty sure they will be binging out.

I'm not surprised they have limited this as a trial to the US. If they get the numbers on this then they could end up either destroying the entire economics of kindle or leaving themselves on the hook for a huge chunk of change trying to stop the KOLL/KU rate plummet into single digits when Kindle readers go berserk.

The comparison with this was when one of the mobile networks switched to 'all you can eat' data tariffs for about 30 USD. the uptick in usage of people downloading movies, music etc was so large it nearly brought down the entire network and they had to quickly add a fair usage cap.

On their 10 bucks a month even if they put all the money based on their own ten books out at a time that is maximum 1 buck per read. if they take 30 percent it is 70 cents, if they take 50 percent its 50 cents. Anything over 1 USD and they have to put money in. For all the people who don't read 10 books there will be the big chunk of early adopters who are reading 10-20-30+, and for every subscriber there will be an attached drop in Kindle revenue from books they no longer pay for.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm pretty sure fondling sales booms is against Forum Decorum.....


My hands are outside the clothes, I swear.


----------



## jackiegp

Bluehorseshoe said:


> check your keywords and watch the ascent of the kindle unlimited titles eclipse your own, am doing it in real time. the game is over folks.


What does this mean? Please expand.


----------



## Peter Salisbury

dmac said:


> Yes. And as I said previously, $1 or $2 or even $20 million is nothing to Amazon if their intent is to take Scribd and Oyster's authors away from them.


If it is Amazon's intention to take authors away from Smashwords, D2D, Scribd and Oyster, etc, then I can safely say I have not been tempted for a single moment to ditch diversity for exclusivity.


----------



## Vaalingrade

jackiegp said:


> I just tracked mine. I got paid $1. That's it. Not $2. for a borrow. $1. for the KU. The gig is up.


Wait, how do you know how much you got paid already. Doesn't the pot scam revolve around only telling you how much you got after the fact?


----------



## X. Aratare

Josef Black said:


> the math doesn't work out like that.
> 
> lets start with 1 million kindle users on board. that is 10M subscription monies. Of course this isn't new money. That is 10M those people are no longer spending on other kindle titles. Lets imagine for a minute that contains some of kindles biggest spenders who spent on average 30-50 USD a month on books and suddenly Amazon has swapped 30M to 50M of revenue for 10M.
> 
> Out of that 10M Amazon decides it wants 50 percent. A logical move, Amazon is pushing for more margin off trads, it is a good way to offset the 70 percent it needs on KDP to keep apple at bay.
> 
> So that is 5 million in the kitty. Each reader averages 10 reads a month. lets face it the big whales will be doing a book a day if we count in novellas so there will be lots of early adopters hitting the service for 30-50 reads a month. But we'll go with 10 average, so that is 10 million reads / 5m pool = 0.50 cents a read.
> 
> For Amazon to match KOLL rates they'd have to subsidise every read by 1.50 - that is 15M USD a month (180M a year). Possible.
> 
> Now lets imagine 10 million people get on the KU bandwagon. Suddenly the same numbers mean's amazon has 10x the amount to deal with. Their subsidy just jumped to 150m a month - 1.8 BILLION p.a. Probably about twice the entire revenue from Kindle in its entirety. Amazon could BUY scribd and Oyster for less than that. If we were talking 20 million subscribers and 3.6 Billion in subsidy a year they might as well buy Simon & Schuster and Hachette to go with it.
> 
> There is no way Amazon is going to line the pockets of indies with 1.8 billion a year when they have shown such willingness to bend over and take it lining up to give books away for free/permafree and take whatever they offer on KOLL.
> 
> And while scribd may get less than 2 percent whales, I would wager the number will be huge on Kindle. Kindle Romance readers are the most voracious in the reading world so I'm pretty sure they will be binging out.
> 
> I'm not surprised they have limited this as a trial to the US. If they get the numbers on this then they could end up either destroying the entire economics of kindle or leaving themselves on the hook for a huge chunk of change trying to stop the KOLL/KU rate plummet into single digits when Kindle readers go berserk.
> 
> The comparison with this was when one of the mobile networks switched to 'all you can eat' data tariffs for about 30 USD. the uptick in usage of people downloading movies, music etc was so large it nearly brought down the entire network and they had to quickly add a fair usage cap.
> 
> On their 10 bucks a month even if they put all the money based on their own ten books out at a time that is maximum 1 buck per read. if they take 30 percent it is 70 cents, if they take 50 percent its 50 cents. Anything over 1 USD and they have to put money in. For all the people who don't read 10 books there will be the big chunk of early adopters who are reading 10-20-30+, and for every subscriber there will be an attached drop in Kindle revenue from books they no longer pay for.


This was my point, but much more eloquently stated.

The only way this possibly works is if there are so many more readers and/or reads that you make up in volume what you lost in revenue by making let's say $0.50 a sale. I ... don't think that's going to happen as people have discovered when they raise their prices from $0.99 to $2.99. They sell less, but they make MORE. KU is going to pretty much keep you in the 99 cents range and you can do nothing about it.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

So I'm concerned because Amazon is making a two-tiered system.  From the Publisher's Marketplace article it appears that....

1. KDP authors get paid based on the KOLL pool

2. Traditionally published authors, including those at the Amazon imprints are getting paid exactly the same as if someone purchased the book.

This means the KDP authors (in general) make a lot less per book than the traditional authors do.  I would like to see both paid based on their MSRP.


----------



## Book Master

Amazon's stock rose $5.22 to $357.67 in midday trading probably due to this new rollout.

Amazon made the editor's picks on MSN today. Here is the link if anyone wants to check it out.

http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20140718&id=17786890


----------



## Guest

Sure it wasn't a salee that cleared?


----------



## adanlerma

Saul Tanpepper said:


> Reasons to invest my work in KU:
> 1. Potential for more exposure.
> 
> Reasons NOT to invest my work in KU:
> 1. No guarantee of more exposure. In fact, if the catalog gets swamped with hastily written short works, that benefit vanishes.
> 2. Restricted distribution and restricted choices for readers.
> 3. No guarantee what the payout will be month-to-month.
> 4. I get 60% list price now on Oyster and Scribd.
> 
> I'll look into writing a few quick funnel books for my series and enrolling them into KU because that seems to make good business sense for now (and, incidentally, underscores the 1st point in my NOT list), but I don't see this being a boon for anyone in the long term, especially if it further erodes competition. Not good for indies, not good for readers.
> 
> (BTW, I think I read Amazon has agreements with some of the Big 5 to pay full list price royalties on books borrowed through KOLL; I presume these agreements extend to KU. If this is true, then why would indies stand to be paid slave wages?)


Powerful important stuff Saul, about how Scribd & Oyster pay out.

Yeah, the tiered pay-out system, and non-universal exclusivity clause, both give me a lot of concern.

But I'll probably still put my upcoming new short in the program, so I can at least see how it works for me.

Actually knowing how Scribd and Oyster work, and how difficult it is to have our titles found in libraries, gives us first hand info to compare with.


----------



## jackiegp

Bluehorseshoe said:


> Sure it wasn't a salee that cleared?


I digress. Hubby just recalculated. Could have been a sale. Sigh.


----------



## Redacted1111

Do you get a dollar even if you are priced at $.99?


----------



## dmac

Steven Konkoly said:


> Don't do that!




I said this in another thread (repeating someone from Hugh Howey's forum), but I think a good way to counter any side effects of KU is by utilizing a release window system the way movie studios do, in terms of releasing films into theaters before shipping them off to Netflix/cable/DVDs.

Release the new titles out of Select for the first 1-3 month, and only add it to KU when the sales dry up. Repeat process. This, of course, would require a healthy mailing list, and enough fans who are willing to pay in addition to KU (if they are already signed up to KU).

Any thoughts?


----------



## 4eyesbooks

I produced the spreadsheet for today only and it does not show KOL or KU revenue yet since we do not know the amount yet until after the end of the month and I have 3 KOL/KU so far for today.  I don't think we know that KU will only pay $1 yet.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

jackiegp said:


> Look on your KDP sales board. It will say what your earnings are to date underneath. Then click on the produce a spreadsheet below that. It will give you up until yesterday. I just so happened NOT to have a sale today other than FREE. So, I added up the individual earnings, then I took the total earnings, then subtracted difference on the KDP and divided it by the number of free downloads. It's a buck.


KOLL/KU $ is not reported on the NEW Sales Board.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Kalypsō said:


> Do you get a dollar even if you are priced at $.99?


Theoretically, yes. If KU works like the KOLL, it's possible you could make as much or more off a borrow than you would a sale. A sale at .99 cents is, what, 34 cents or so? If the monthly pool for KOLL/KU was such that each borrow earned the author $1, you'd be making more off a borrow than a sale.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Something just occurred to me...

Can someone who signed up for KU please scroll around a bit and answer me this: are there ads for non-book Amazon products on the site?

My theory is this: Amazon just turned every Select title into their own version of perma-free. It isn't the books they intend to make money on (the cost being there just to defray the pittance paid to content creators), but the 'literally everything else' Amazon sells.

Why do this now?

AliBaba is coming.


----------



## Guest

jackiegp said:


> Look on your KDP sales board. It will say what your earnings are to date underneath. Then click on the produce a spreadsheet below that. It will give you up until yesterday. I just so happened NOT to have a sale today other than FREE. So, I added up the individual earnings, then I took the total earnings, then subtracted difference on the KDP and divided it by the number of free downloads. It's a buck.


The daily earnings report does not include the KOLL payouts and isn't even real time accurate. For example, I have 7 sales today for one of my titles according to the dashboard, but when I download the spreadsheet it is only showing 4 sales. You are working with bad data which is why you are getting bad results.

The KOLL payout is based on the total number of borrows. It is not possible for Amazon to know TODAY what they are going to pay you because they don't have the month's complete data.


----------



## jackiegp

Steven Konkoly said:


> KOLL/KU $ is not reported on the NEW Sales Board.


Yes, I digressed already. My hubby thought he could calculate it, but it could have been a sale that came through from the day prior. I apologize.


----------



## adanlerma

Bluehorseshoe said:


> I will not be joining. I have too much traction through smashwords. Though i fear this may destroy my business...
> 
> Time will tell, but i'm not into it. It's DEFINITELY not the same as the scribd model.


Yes, very different pay out to the authors.


----------



## C. Gockel

> This will most likely impact romance, YA, and NA authors the most, because those readers tend to be the ones who consume lots of books a month. But as has been noted, if you are a writer who publishes in a specialized niche or a genre in which the demographic is not high-consumption, then this won't change anything.


Yes, I think this is true. I don't think that people who read niche genres are going to be fulfilled by KU ... primarily because most of us have already had to move out and seek other vendors to stay viable.

I did ask my readers about this as well. Several already have subscriptions services with Oyster and Kobo and still readily go buy other books from Amazon. I think Indies are pretty affordably priced anyway. You may be paying 9.99 ... but the book you like for FREE - $3.99, you're likely to splurge.

I don't think this will kill permafree for that reason. In fact, I can see permafree could become more important for niche authors, because it can draw in casual browsers, genuine fans, and people in KU who are interested in seeing what else is out there.


----------



## B&amp;H

Kalypsō said:


> Do you get a dollar even if you are priced at $.99?


According to all info posted you get the same divvy of the pot regardless of your sale price from 99c to 9.99. Works the same as KOLL. total pot divided by total reads = share per read.

if you've got 10K word serials that you were selling at 9.99 - even if it does end up at 50 cents a go you'll actually be in profit. So this could be paydirt for never ending serial writers that were doing 99c a copy, since readers can no longer complain about the price. Put out a new edition every 2 weeks.

And that is my big concern, the people who are going to get the best out of this are people putting out very short, long running serials into massive genre pools like romance. If you've got a genre with millions of readership potential and you remove the cost issue of each instalment they can binge away on never-ending serials without the cost mounting up for them, meanwhile you can be putting out a episode every week, two weeks, whatever you can manage and end up with 26 x (or 52 x the borrows if you are prolific) that an author who took 12 months to write a full length book took. lets say you be cheeky and spend 2 days and get out 10-12K. a day on editing. 3 days work for 12K episode you are getting 10 x the borrow income for the same word count as 1 largish novel. Since readers can burn through these shorts they will be borrowing them in droves no doubt and thus the biggest share of the pot will likely go to the most prolific short serial writers who can make up in volume what they lose per unit, in any case if you were writing for a 99c price point the economics would be pretty similar.

It's like being paid to have all your work in permafree, bury the resolution to the previous episode cliffhanger and you are away.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Vaalingrade said:


> Something just occurred to me...
> 
> Can someone who signed up for KU please scroll around a bit and answer me this: are there ads for non-book Amazon products on the site?


I don't see anything unusual. Tons and tons of books to pick from. At the veeeery bottom of the screen if I scroll down far enough is the usual "Your Recently Viewed Items and Featured Recommendations" scroll bar, but I'm not seeing any non-book ads anywhere.


----------



## KZoe

Vaalingrade said:


> Can someone who signed up for KU please scroll around a bit and answer me this: are there ads for non-book Amazon products on the site?


Just books showing up for me.


----------



## jackiegp

I have a question. Since Amazon has given us the option to pull out of KU right away, do you think that they will not allow that option at a later date?


----------



## adanlerma

Vaalingrade said:


> Luckily, though, I anticipated a honeypot using Select that would screw us all and am now prepared to implement it by September.
> 
> Step 1: Focus on other channels. Just like with Countdown, a ton of people will stampede to the new thing that will ultimately hurt them, thereby reducing competition on other channels. Seeing as the REST OF THE FREAKING WORLD uses these channels, someone needs to accept their waiting eyes and money.
> 
> Step 2: To Allay Free-no-cide, break glass. New prequels for RB and The Descendants are nearing completion. Not for KU, but for ever other channel should Amazon purge free. The original book 1's become 99 cents and the prequels got up free everywhere else.
> 
> Step 3: Sate the Amazon Reader. If Amazon won't let me give thier readers free books on thier site, I'll give them free books on my site. .MOBIs of the new free prequels (and all other formats) will be made available on the site and advertised in the Amazon Book 1's. The site will explain exactly why they couldn't get these on Amazon and where to direct their complaints.


Ditto what Steven Konkoly said in a prev post about your comment above -

"Smart. More strategizing. Less speculating."

Best wishes!


----------



## Jim Johnson

jackiegp said:


> I have a question. Since Amazon has given us the option to pull out of KU right away, do you think that they will not allow that option at a later date?


If I recall the KDP Select T&Cs correctly, you can pull your book any time.


----------



## books_mb

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The KOLL payout is based on the total number of borrows. It is not possible for Amazon to know TODAY what they are going to pay you because they don't have the month's complete data.


So it will be fund divided by total as usual? If yes, then I'm satisfied. I'm sure Amazon will set the fund in a way that keeps us entertained. If they want to dominate the market, they can't lose their authors to competitors. I have absolute faith in capitalist principles. That said, the system is very unfair for authors that price their books higher. It looks like they want to force all authors to join their low price / high volume model with KU.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Josef Black said:


> And that is my big concern, the people who are going to get the best out of this are people putting out very short, long running serials into massive genre pools like romance. If you've got a genre with millions of readership potential and you remove the cost issue of each instalment they can binge away on never-ending serials without the cost mounting up for them, meanwhile you can be putting out a episode every week, two weeks, whatever you can manage and end up with 26 x (or 52 x the borrows if you are prolific) that an author who took 12 months to write a full length book took. lets say you be cheeky and spend 2 days and get out 10-12K. a day on editing. 3 days work for 12K episode you are getting 10 x the borrow income for the same word count as 1 largish novel. Since readers can burn through these shorts they will be borrowing them in droves no doubt and thus the biggest share of the pot will likely go to the most prolific short serial writers who can make up in volume what they lose per unit, in any case if you were writing for a 99c price point the economics would be pretty similar.


Sounds like a feature, not a bug!  Must write more, faster. Welcome to the New Pulp era!


----------



## Guest

books_mb said:


> So it will be fund divided by total as usual? If yes, then I'm satisfied. I'm sure Amazon will set the fund in a way that keeps us entertained. If they want to dominate the market, they can't lose their authors to competitors. I have absolute faith in capitalist principles. That said, the system is very unfair for authors that price their books higher. It looks like they want to force all authors to join their low price / high volume model with KU.


Frankly, it is also unfair to authors that release complete books instead of artificially breaking a complete book up into five separate ones and calling it a serial. It rewards authors who are willing to cut up a single book into five or six products so that they get six pieces of the pie instead of one. People in this very thread have even suggested doing just that.


----------



## Redacted1111

Jim Johnson said:


> Sounds like a feature, not a bug!  Must write more, faster. Welcome to the New Pulp era!


I feel inspired right now. I'll just have to make myself start working at night after the kid is in bed. I also need a reliable proofreader who can keep up. I haven't felt this excited since I started last year. I no longer have to be terrified of hate reviewers. Yay!


----------



## books_mb

Josef Black said:


> And that is my big concern, the people who are going to get the best out of this are people putting out very short, long running serials into massive genre pools like romance. If you've got a genre with millions of readership potential and you remove the cost issue of each instalment they can binge away on never-ending serials without the cost mounting up for them, meanwhile you can be putting out a episode every week, two weeks, whatever you can manage and end up with 26 x (or 52 x the borrows if you are prolific) that an author who took 12 months to write a full length book took. lets say you be cheeky and spend 2 days and get out 10-12K. a day on editing. 3 days work for 12K episode you are getting 10 x the borrow income for the same word count as 1 largish novel.


That is a very good point. But if this situation arises, Amazon will start losing authors and will have to alter the fund model to win them back.


----------



## Redacted1111

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Frankly, it is also unfair to authors that release complete books instead of artificially breaking a complete book up into five separate ones and calling it a serial. It rewards authors who are willing to cut up a single book into five or six products so that they get six pieces of the pie instead of one. People in this very thread have even suggested doing just that.


I think it will all level out because people will want the serial to be a real serial. Serials should be written as serials not as cut up novels. Hopefully, the reviewers will judge the individual installments based on entertainment value rather than length. Episodic tv isn't a cut up long movie. Each piece has it's own story arc even if there is a cliffhanger. Maybe readers will start to judge serials based on that.


----------



## adanlerma

abishop said:


> The big question for me isn't what happens to books enrolled in KU, but what happens to those that aren't. If people can get as many books as they want to read in KU, how many are simply going to balk at paying full price for individual books?...
> 
> Are authors who refuse to go the KU route just going to be frozen out of the market?


I hope not, but authors can and do publish on Scribd, Oyster, libraries, iTunes, B&N, Kobo, Smashwords, and soon, txtr and others; myself included.


----------



## nubchai

Does anyone know if readers can download multiple books at one time in KU?  If so, I could see readers downloading a lot of books and not reading them. The goal would be to make sure they weren't paying $9.99 a month for nothing.

Also, this was in the email from Amazon: "KDP Select authors and publishers will earn a share of the KDP Select global fund each time a customer accesses their book from Kindle Unlimited and reads more than 10% of their book-–about the length of reading the free sample available in Kindle books-–as opposed to a payout when the book is simply downloaded. Only the first time a customer reads a book past 10% will be counted. "


----------



## Jim Johnson

nubchai said:


> Does anyone know if readers can download multiple books at one time in KU? If so, I could see readers downloading a lot of books and not reading them. The goal would be to make sure they weren't paying $9.99 a month for nothing


Users are capped at 10 books at a time.


----------



## Daniel Knight

Josef Black said:


> So that is 5 million in the kitty. Each reader averages 10 reads a month. lets face it the big whales will be doing a book a day if we count in novellas so there will be lots of early adopters hitting the service for 30-50 reads a month. But we'll go with 10 average, so that is 10 million reads / 5m pool = 0.50 cents a read.


Josef, I think you may be overestimating the number of books an average reader reads. According to Lisa earlier in the comment chain, Scribd only sees 2% of readers read more than 10 books a month.


----------



## Σ

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Frankly, it is also unfair to authors that release complete books instead of artificially breaking a complete book up into five separate ones and calling it a serial. It rewards authors who are willing to cut up a single book into five or six products so that they get six pieces of the pie instead of one. People in this very thread have even suggested doing just that.


I wonder if amazon's data suggest this is how people are reading anyway. Doing it that way could make the audiobook production more complicated, though. And print impossible--not that most of us make jack from print


----------



## Guest

This isn't about being "smarter" that Bezos. It is about realizing that what is good for Bezos is not automatically good for authors. There is this strange belief that Amazon would never "hurt" indies. It is not grounded in reality. The ACX debacle demonstrated that. The handling of Mobipocket demonstrated that. The fact that KOLL specifically hurts authors with books that aren't priced at the same price as a roll of toilet paper demonstrates that. Bezos doesn't see "authors." He sees an ocean of interchangeable content. He's selling volume, and really doesn't care about individual authors. Because he's already succeeded in selling the dream, and when authors wake up from the dream and diversify from Amazon or seek other venues, he doesn't care. Because there are always more dreamers.

_edited to remove quoted post now deleted . --Betsy_


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Frankly, it is also unfair to authors that release complete books instead of artificially breaking a complete book up into five separate ones and calling it a serial. It rewards authors who are willing to cut up a single book into five or six products so that they get six pieces of the pie instead of one. People in this very thread have even suggested doing just that.


This very thought had crossed my mind. A person might release their next book in six installments. Then, when their three months in Select ends, exit select and KU, release the full version, either separately or by updating the 1st installment (the one with the most reviews), and change the price. While I don't think there's anything unethical about this, it's not how I'd like to read a full-length book (artificially chopped up), nor do I think it's all that good for authors in general.


----------



## Daniel Knight

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> So I'm concerned because Amazon is making a two-tiered system. From the Publisher's Marketplace article it appears that....
> 
> 1. KDP authors get paid based on the KOLL pool
> 
> 2. Traditionally published authors, including those at the Amazon imprints are getting paid exactly the same as if someone purchased the book.
> 
> This means the KDP authors (in general) make a lot less per book than the traditional authors do. I would like to see both paid based on their MSRP.


While I agree a two-tier system is less than desirable and fair, to be accurate the publisher is getting paid exactly as if someone purchased the book. The traditional author is still getting screwed thanks to ridiculously low royalty rates.


----------



## adanlerma

Marie Long said:


> This model sounds no different than Oyster and Scribd. What is Amazon doing differently? They are obviously trying to get more people to use Select, as the option to take advantage of Kindle Unlimited sounds like it would only apply to books that are enrolled in Select.
> 
> So you probably won't be able to use KU for books that are not in Select.


Marie, the main difference for me is I get a good set royalty at both Scribd and Oyster, and I don't need to be exclusive to either.

An additional difference is I can price free on Scribd and Oyster, and on Scribd direct folk there to read even without an account. That expands my exposure, plus introduces the reader to Scribd and their free reader intro offers.

That being said, I have a short in-progress I'm planning on putting in KU, that way I'll know first hand how it works for a writer.


----------



## wtvr

Daniel Knight said:


> Josef, I think you may be overestimating the number of books an average reader reads. According to Lisa earlier in the comment chain, Scribd only sees 2% of readers read more than 10 books a month.


I am so delighted to know somebody read something I posted. 

As a techno nerd veteran, I have seen the sky fall many times. There is a huge upside here, for anyone who wants it. (Back to writing my new billionaire vampire erotic romance serial, later gators.)


----------



## Huldra

My sales on Amazon would have to more than half before I'd consider yanking my titles from all other retailers to be part of what looks like it'll be a race to the bottom in regards to royalties.
So far, even though amazon.com is my biggest seller, I think the best long-term strategy for me is to focus on building my other markets.

If it wasn't a requirement to be in select for it, I would probably have put my first in series in as a funnel, expecting it to be a loss leader, but as a long-term strategy I'd need to see some serious figures to use the 'slice of pie' strategy in my long-term business plan, regardless of exclusivity.


----------



## B&amp;H

dmac said:


> As I said to someone else on another thread who thought he had come up with a fool-proof plan to game KU, you are banking on the fact that you are smarter than Jeff Bezos and his legion of computer geeks and number crunchers, and have come up with something he has not already considered.


No I don't think I have missed the point. Plenty of people on the thread overlooked the very simple fact that Jeff, smart hedge fund trader that he was, has devised a way to ensure that all the risk of his new model is completely dumped on the shoulders of his suppliers, and unlike the sort of backlash that the Hachette negotiations caused people have completely missed the point that Jeff is making no mention of your royalty rates or how much he is going to pay you.

Now lets imagine they did the same on KDP, one day we have 70 percent rates, next day Jeff decides to pool all our income into one big pot, decide in secret how much Amazon is going to take out of that pot and divide the rest amongst the authors based not on sales price but how many total sales there were. I would imagine a large riot would be the result.

That is the future Jeff is offering if Kindle Unlimited ends up being the majority of revenue on Kindle store. He's not even going to underwrite your sales price let alone your 70 percent royalty. Just a number that suits Amazon from its total revenue divided equally like some sort of communist scheme.

And of course Jeff is smart, he's seen indies willingness to line up and supply books at any cost. He's got his 600K catalogue to play with, he doesn't have to offer indies sweetheart deals. We've proven our loyalty to Amazon and willingness to accept their terms.

I might be a struggling author today, but I don't plan to be a struggling author next year precisely because I look at all the cracks that Jeff doesn't want me to look at in his golden statue. This is a bad deal for me so I'll pass. Is it a bad deal for the reader? Nope. I'd jump on it. Is it a bad deal for Amazon? Nope. Any money they lose from sales they will make up for by digging deeper and deeper into the Unlimited pot, which they can, since authors gave them that right to.

So I agree with you in one respect, Jeff is smart, and he is probably smarter than the vast majority of people who think he is offering them a good deal with this. But he isn't quite as smart who can see through his parlour trick for what it is, a way to cannibalise your own sales revenue and give Kindle (but not you) a extra juicy marketing deal for the consumer and Amazon the right to dip into revenue generated from your content for as much as it once and have absolutely zero legal say or rights as to how much you should be paid for your own work.

We complained bitterly over trads one sided terms, but this is a whole new level of devious 'take your control away' level of self-capitulation.

I hope I'm wrong. But I can't see how Amazon can subsidise unlimited if it ends up being a sizeable proportion of their kindle market. And the maths say 50-70 cents a copy. Anything over that relies on readers not consuming an average of 10 books or Amazon subsidising the service against their clear (by trad negotiations) pressure to start making a profit to keep wall street happy.


----------



## books_mb

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Frankly, it is also unfair to authors that release complete books instead of artificially breaking a complete book up into five separate ones and calling it a serial. It rewards authors who are willing to cut up a single book into five or six products so that they get six pieces of the pie instead of one. People in this very thread have even suggested doing just that.


You are right. I think I've been a bit shortsighted on this.


----------



## adanlerma

Josef Black said:


> And that is my big concern, the people who are going to get the best out of this are people putting out very short, long running serials into massive genre pools like romance. If you've got a genre with millions of readership potential and you remove the cost issue of each instalment they can binge away on never-ending serials without the cost mounting up for them, meanwhile you can be putting out a episode every week, two weeks, whatever you can manage and end up with 26 x (or 52 x the borrows if you are prolific) that an author who took 12 months to write a full length book took. lets say you be cheeky and spend 2 days and get out 10-12K. a day on editing. 3 days work for 12K episode you are getting 10 x the borrow income for the same word count as 1 largish novel. Since readers can burn through these shorts they will be borrowing them in droves no doubt and thus the biggest share of the pot will likely go to the most prolific short serial writers who can make up in volume what they lose per unit, in any case if you were writing for a 99c price point the economics would be pretty similar.
> 
> It's like being paid to have all your work in permafree, bury the resolution to the previous episode cliffhanger and you are away.


Josef, those are very good points.

However, many of those issues came up early this year (I have a post from Feb: Is Smashwords Opening the Door for Fiction Serials @ Scribd and Oyster? - http://felipeadanlerma.com/2014/02/24/is-smashwords-opening-the-door-for-fiction-serials-scribd-and-oyster/ ).

I believe, actually would not believe otherwise, that all of Scribd's and Oyster's competitors, present then and future, including Amazon, were watching and absorbing and testing how all these potentialities could go.

And as several folk have mentioned, as well as many articles on the web, books acct for less than 10% of Amazon's gross.

Bringing in people to book shop who'll go on to buy physical items (as my wife and I have for many many years and still do), is where most people speculate the strategy goes, to that other 90%.

I think it's smart. And (Amazon) waiting too much longer, with Scribd and Oyster growing by very big margins, and big competitors from around the world chomping to enter the market, well...


----------



## nubchai

Jim Johnson said:


> Users are capped at 10 books at a time.


Thanks Jim!


----------



## Deke

But I don't want people to rent my book.  I want them to buy it.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Deke said:


> But I don't want people to rent my book. I want them to buy it.


Then don't enroll in KDP Select. Simple!


----------



## jackiegp

nubchai said:


> Thanks Jim!


Then they can read them and return them and get 10 more!


----------



## A past poster

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This isn't about being "smarter" that Bezos. It is about realizing that what is good for Bezos is not automatically good for authors. There is this strange belief that Amazon would never "hurt" indies. It is not grounded in reality. The ACX debacle demonstrated that. The handling of Mobipocket demonstrated that. The fact that KOLL specifically hurts authors with books that aren't priced at the same price as a roll of toilet paper demonstrates that. Bezos doesn't see "authors." He sees an ocean of interchangeable content. He's selling volume, and really doesn't care about individual authors. Because he's already succeeded in selling the dream, and when authors wake up from the dream and diversify from Amazon or seek other venues, he doesn't care. Because there are always more dreamers.


Yes


----------



## EC

Josef Black said:


> No I don't think I have missed the point. Plenty of people on the thread overlooked the very simple fact that Jeff, smart hedge fund trader that he was, has devised a way to ensure that all the risk of his new model is completely dumped on the shoulders of his suppliers, and unlike the sort of backlash that the Hachette negotiations caused people have completely missed the point that Jeff is making no mention of your royalty rates or how much he is going to pay you.
> 
> Now lets imagine they did the same on KDP, one day we have 70 percent rates, next day Jeff decides to pool all our income into one big pot, decide in secret how much Amazon is going to take out of that pot and divide the rest amongst the authors based not on sales price but how many total sales there were. I would imagine a large riot would be the result.
> 
> That is the future Jeff is offering if Kindle Unlimited ends up being the majority of revenue on Kindle store. He's not even going to underwrite your sales price let alone your 70 percent royalty. Just a number that suits Amazon from its total revenue divided equally like some sort of communist scheme.
> 
> And of course Jeff is smart, he's seen indies willingness to line up and supply books at any cost. He's got his 600K catalogue to play with, he doesn't have to offer indies sweetheart deals. We've proven our loyalty to Amazon and willingness to accept their terms.
> 
> I might be a struggling author today, but I don't plan to be a struggling author next year precisely because I look at all the cracks that Jeff doesn't want me to look at in his golden statue. This is a bad deal for me so I'll pass. Is it a bad deal for the reader? Nope. I'd jump on it. Is it a bad deal for Amazon? Nope. Any money they lose from sales they will make up for by digging deeper and deeper into the Unlimited pot, which they can, since authors gave them that right to.
> 
> So I agree with you in one respect, Jeff is smart, and he is probably smarter than the vast majority of people who think he is offering them a good deal with this. But he isn't quite as smart who can see through his parlour trick for what it is, a way to cannibalise your own sales revenue and give Kindle (but not you) a extra juicy marketing deal for the consumer and Amazon the right to dip into revenue generated from your content for as much as it once and have absolutely zero legal say or rights as to how much you should be paid for your own work.
> 
> We complained bitterly over trads one sided terms, but this is a whole new level of devious 'take your control away' level of self-capitulation.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong. But I can't see how Amazon can subsidise unlimited if it ends up being a sizeable proportion of their kindle market. And the maths say 50-70 cents a copy. Anything over that relies on readers not consuming an average of 10 books or Amazon subsidising the service against their clear (by trad negotiations) pressure to start making a profit to keep wall street happy.


Too much speculation. August will bring our earliest indicator so there's no point stressing out about it.


----------



## jackiegp

Deke said:


> But I don't want people to rent my book. I want them to buy it.


Here! Here! But Amazon doesn't care what authors want...sigh.


----------



## Jim Johnson

jackiegp said:


> Then they can read them and return them and get 10 more!


Yup! That's how unlimited works.  I'm loving it, as a reader. Ten authors I've been thinking about trying out are about to get paid thanks to my downloading and reading, and there'll be 10 more after them.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Hey, folks--second thread that I've had to prune.  Please stop making personal comments and address the topic.  Dmac--I've removed posts in two threads now.  

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Guest

Josef,

I cant agree more with what you say. I also concur on the math.

Let's face it. As independent publishers these massive companies hold us by the balls, and they can and will control us to an extent. We will take whatever they dish out because that is all that is available.

This is a major [expletive] up on Amazon's part. If they cannot keep the royalty at 2 bucks per, or offer volume that makes up the difference, this crack pot scheme is over and the content creators are going to revolt against amazon and they wont have ANY exclusive content.

This is capitalism for jeff bezos, communism for the rest of us. Fact. And i don't give a [crap] what anyone else says. This is going to screw the vast majority of us who will chose to remain independent, and we will eventually cede that to unlimited once we see our revenues plunging. As an anecdote, i have a ton of data on how my fridays perform, and im about 70% below average so far. Most disturbing is my perma free books have sold ZERO copies so far while on a usually day i give at least 50 away.


----------



## Daniel Knight

LisaGloria said:


> I am so delighted to know somebody read something I posted.
> 
> As a techno nerd veteran, I have seen the sky fall many times. There is a huge upside here, for anyone who wants it. (Back to writing my new billionaire vampire erotic romance serial, later gators.)


Glad I could shine a little extra light on a very important statistic you shared. To repeat it once more, Lisa pointed out that only 2% of readers on Sribd read more than 10 books a month. In other words just like with other subscription services that depend on high "breakage" rates, the evidence so far indicates an ebook subscription service will work the same way. I understand people's concerns, as I share them, but like Lisa, I do see a big upside for writers of short stories/serials.

A lot of people are saying that the effective royalty rate will plummet. It could happen - but if it did wouldn't you expect indies to start leaving Select in great numbers. Seeing how Kindle Unlimited is highly dependent on those indies - especially right now, this would kill the program. So it is still in Amazon's best interest to keep us happy with reasonable effective royalty rates.


----------



## adanlerma

Saul Tanpepper said:


> This very thought had crossed my mind. A person might release their next book in six installments. Then, when their three months in Select ends, exit select and KU, release the full version, either separately or by updating the 1st installment (the one with the most reviews), and change the price. While I don't think there's anything unethical about this, it's not how I'd like to read a full-length book (artificially chopped up), nor do I think it's all that good for authors in general.


Saul, a suggestion (and advice for myself as well) :

Sharpen the periodic tension points, and make it more authentically a serial, ala Charles Dickens. Not sure how many of his novels were first serials, but some biggies.


----------



## Jonathan C. Gillespie

Goodness gracious, once again Julie is the voice of reason.

I guess I'm being a cynic, but I realized another reason I might end up disliking this. The Beacon Saga is a legitimate serial, and already I've had my own challenges facing both author and reader perceptions. If a whole bunch of people jump into the serial waters with things that should have been novels but were broken up to game the system, then I can't help but wonder if that's only going to further hurt these perceptions.

I think another thing is folks need to be careful about being an early adopter just to chase the cheese. There's an argument to be made here that a flood of indies rushing into Select will actually help those of us who are multi-platform advocates, as you'll be removing your titles from the available pool of books that these readers can purchase, thus increasing the chances of discoverability for those remaining on multiple channels. Amazon is the big fish in the water, sure, but iTunes and Kobo are still alive and kicking.


----------



## Vaalingrade

I'm still trying to figure out what Amazon gets out of this blunder.

Okay, so it's another honeypot to trick people into Select like Countdown. Fine. but so what?

As people have reported, they're not doing a good job bridging people to their other products in-app for now.

Since it's Select only, it's probably not going to steal a lot of the talent pool off Oyster and Scribd, especially since those two pay a fair rate instead of the pot thing.

At the same time, they're theoretically limiting the profit they can get off their most voracious customers to $120 a year. Even taking only 30%, I have to imagine they stood to earn more on actual sales. Plus, they're going to end up starving out a big chunk of that talent pool they're touting.

Even given that KU will get inexorably more expensive just like Prime and it's hard to figure out where the money OR market share is going to come from.

Is this honestly just the 'Make KOLL unlimited' tact of bribing people into Select done in the worst way possible? Is that going to see any better retention than Countdown?

In the end, this looks like way less of a game changer for people not dependent on the high turnover genres than it looked. People are going to come, find that the pool of books id dwindling because of the starvation wages being paid out on it, and leave OR it becomes massively popular, but too expensive due to trying to pay something not sociopathic to the authors far outstripping the $20-35 this service is going to end up costing per month in the end.


----------



## Daniel Knight

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This isn't about being "smarter" that Bezos. It is about realizing that what is good for Bezos is not automatically good for authors. There is this strange belief that Amazon would never "hurt" indies. It is not grounded in reality. The ACX debacle demonstrated that. The handling of Mobipocket demonstrated that. The fact that KOLL specifically hurts authors with books that aren't priced at the same price as a roll of toilet paper demonstrates that. Bezos doesn't see "authors." He sees an ocean of interchangeable content. He's selling volume, and really doesn't care about individual authors. Because he's already succeeded in selling the dream, and when authors wake up from the dream and diversify from Amazon or seek other venues, he doesn't care. Because there are always more dreamers.
> 
> _edited to remove quoted post now deleted . --Betsy_


But for Kindle Unlimited to succeed - Bezos and Amazon need content. Right now that content is primarily indie published. If the program ends up driving effective royalty rates way down then wouldn't you expect indie authors to leave the program. If that happens he loses content and the program fails. So it is in Amazon's best interest to keep the effective royalty rate high enough to keep indies happy.


----------



## C. Gockel

I've been chatting with a lot of my readers about this.  A lot of them say it would never work for them because they like rereading my books (!) so they want to own them. Several already have subscriptions, but go out of their subscription pool to buy books they like.

I don't think this is the end of permafree. And I think for people in niche markets it might not be a make-it-or-break-it deal.


----------



## Jonathan C. Gillespie

Daniel Knight said:


> So it is still in Amazon's best interest to keep us happy with reasonable effective royalty rates.


It's in Amazon's best interest to make as much money as possible to satisfy the shareholders. With respect, whether you're "happy" or not doesn't matter so long as you feel compelled or even forced to keep your content available on their platform.


----------



## Guest

Jonathan, 

Readers will just jump to amazon for the 9.99 per month. THeyll go whereever they can to get content, they dont care.


----------



## Deke

So this is automatic if you're in KDP select?  No opt out?


----------



## Jonathan C. Gillespie

Bluehorseshoe said:


> Jonathan,
> 
> Readers will just jump to amazon for the 9.99 per month. THeyll go whereever they can to get content, they dont care.


With respect, that's a blanket statement.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Daniel Knight said:


> A lot of people are saying that the effective royalty rate will plummet. It could happen - but if it did wouldn't you expect indies to start leaving Select in great numbers.


Actually no. Select, aside from KOLL has been effectively worthless for years, but people keep going into it because publishing and promoting to the other channels is like really hard you guys and I get almost as much as my regular royalty on borrows.

Plenty of people are going to stay with it even when it's paying 20 cents per.

When.


----------



## thesmallprint

Looking at the readers' perspective on the KBoards forum, there seems little appetite so far for KU. I cannot find forums on Goodreads - I'm sure they must have them. It would be interesting to get a view from Goodreads members


----------



## Jim Johnson

Deke said:


> So this is automatic if you're in KDP select? No opt out?


Correct. The Select T&Cs have been updated:



> 2.2 Inclusion in Kindle Unlimited and the Kindle Owners' Lending Library. Digital Books included in KDP Select will be automatically included in Kindle Unlimited and the Kindle Owners' Lending Library.


----------



## Guest

it is up to the content producers to fight back. We should all be pulling our work out of select, although many out of fear will push it all into it - hell i may even do it myself out of fear of getting left behind. 

I don't like where this is going. If as a collective voice we accept 20 cent royalty rates then that is what we deserve for not fighting back and voting with our wallets.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Daniel Knight said:


> But for Kindle Unlimited to succeed - Bezos and Amazon need content. Right now that content is primarily indie published. If the program ends up driving effective royalty rates way down then wouldn't you expect indie authors to leave the program. If that happens he loses content and the program fails. So it is in Amazon's best interest to keep the effective royalty rate high enough to keep indies happy.


At $10 a month, they literally cannot do that.

That would assume 5 books a month, when some folks blast through four times that in a week. I've got friends who will be costing Amazon money on their subscription by Sunday.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Bluehorseshoe said:


> Jonathan,
> 
> Readers will just jump to amazon for the 9.99 per month. THeyll go whereever they can to get content, they dont care.


The discussion by Kindle owners in Let's Talk Kindle belies this. Most have said they're not interested based on the current content.

I'm interested because of the audiobook tie-in.

Betsy


----------



## Jonathan C. Gillespie

Jim Johnson said:


> Correct. The Select T&Cs have been updated:


See, and it's little things like that that show the tea leaves. No warning to authors up front that the program is coming, and no way to opt out if you're in Select. Instead it's "here, deal with it". I just don't know why that kind of thing doesn't grate on people more.


----------



## Deke

This is what irks me a bit about Amazon…are they are venue for me to sell my wares, or are they a store that sells what they want on their terms? Like the Hachette situation, I'm not crazy about them dictating the price my work is sold for.  While this is a great situation for readers…heck I'm tempted to join myself…I wonder if it puts writers further away from the driver's seat.


----------



## Guest

Daniel Knight said:


> But for Kindle Unlimited to succeed - Bezos and Amazon need content. Right now that content is primarily indie published. If the program ends up driving effective royalty rates way down then wouldn't you expect indie authors to leave the program. If that happens he loses content and the program fails. So it is in Amazon's best interest to keep the effective royalty rate high enough to keep indies happy.


Not at all, because plenty of people in this very thread have already stated they would sacrifice royalties for "exposure." The quest for exposure has done more to drive down author payments than almost anything else. Authors place far too much weight on this phantom concept of exposure without much regard as to the quality of consumer they might be exposed to. All exposure is not created equal, but plenty of people will not only happily not make money, but take a loss, in order to get "exposure" on Amazon. And it only takes a handful of authors claiming that exposure helped them become bestsellers to continue the drive of content providers.


----------



## Daniel Knight

Josef Black said:


> And of course Jeff is smart, he's seen indies willingness to line up and supply books at any cost. He's got his 600K catalogue to play with, he doesn't have to offer indies sweetheart deals. We've proven our loyalty to Amazon and willingness to accept their terms.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong. But I can't see how Amazon can subsidise unlimited if it ends up being a sizeable proportion of their kindle market. And the maths say 50-70 cents a copy. Anything over that relies on readers not consuming an average of 10 books or Amazon subsidising the service against their clear (by trad negotiations) pressure to start making a profit to keep wall street happy.


Firstly, your premise seems to be contingent on indie authors being unable or unwilling to leave Select if Kindle Unlimited turned out to be bad for them. If effective royalty rates plummet to the levels you suggest, indies will leave the program - the content will dry up, and the program will collapse. Indie authors are smart people and are not locked into Amazon.

Secondly, your math is predicated on your own speculation about how many books the average reader will read. As Lisa pointed out earlier and I have repeated a couple of times, Scribd, another subscription service for which we already have data, only sees 2% of their users read more than 10 books a month - which suggests using 10 books a month for the average reader is probably wildly off.

I understand and even share your concerns, but remember that as an indie you still have plenty of power, and Bezos knows this. His business plan still depends on keeping the content creators happy. I expect that Amazon knows breakage for the subscription system will be high, which will give them plenty of room to keep paying $2+ per borrow.

Would I prefer it was a royalty based on price? Of course. But my first instinct is that it won't end up in the doomsday scenario you are predicting.


----------



## Σ

You can opt-out immediately:



> If you do not want your book(s) in Kindle Unlimited, you have the option to immediately remove your book from KDP Select. To do so, please include the ASIN for your book when you complete this Contact Us form. We will remove your book from KDPS right away and contact you to confirm.


from https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=AA9BSAGNO1YJH&ref_=pe_446670_120661710


----------



## Vaalingrade

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> See, and it's little things like that that show the tea leaves. No warning to authors up front that the program is coming, and no way to opt out if you're in Select. Instead it's "here, deal with it". I just don't know why that kind of thing doesn't grate on people more.


They are letting you jump ship from Select early so you don't have grounds to sue them though.

May I recommend Smashwords or Draft2Digital?


----------



## Jim Johnson

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> See, and it's little things like that that show the tea leaves. No warning to authors up front that the program is coming, and no way to opt out if you're in Select. Instead it's "here, deal with it". I just don't know why that kind of thing doesn't grate on people more.


Well...Amazon does largely cover themselves within the T&Cs:



> 2 Agreement Amendment. *The Program will change over time and the terms of this Agreement will need to change over time as well. We reserve the right to change the terms of this Agreement at any time in our sole discretion.* We will give you notice of the changes by posting new terms in place of the old at http://kdp.amazon.com/ and http://kdp.amazon.co.jp/ with a revision date indicated at the top or by sending an email to the email address then registered for your Program account.


Those terms might grate on a person, but if that person signed up for it, knowing what's in the T&Cs...


----------



## B&amp;H

EC said:


> Too much speculation. August will bring our earliest indicator so there's no point stressing out about it.


No, I'd say a fairly healthy amount of cynicism. Amazon have launched a new business model on us that has the potential to change a lot of our business dynamics and they have been remarkably tight lipped on the most important aspect - exactly how much we get paid to participate.

I was never stressed about KOLL. We all knew that it was limited to 1 borrow a month. so if you had 6 books out and a reader borrowed your first then they'd either have to wait a month for the next or buy it. The amount of borrows floating around the system was capped and the payment rate was reasonable for most books but didn't affect the sales of books higher up the food-chain.

I don't think we can apply scribd's read rates to amazon, for one thing they are a new entrant and have a tiny pool of readership and content compared to Amazon. Its know than Kindles earliest adopters and biggest users are the 'whales' of book reading. Many of them may well have been in scribd, but bear in mind those 600K titles aren't on scribd - they were locked into exclusivity with Kindle. Now they've got access to 600K titles.

A good example, I got a review and mail off someone who had read my first five novellas. he had been planning to save them for his holiday but read the first and ended up reading them all in one sitting and was waiting for the next. it probably took him less than 6 hours to read those. Had that been unlimited he could have consumed 6 'borrows' in one sitting and one day. My mum is retired and can easily go through a book every day or two. This isn't even factoring in Novellas - if people are reading 1-2 novellas a day they could be doing easily 30-50 borrows.

I'll agree it's speculation and a worse case scenario, only time will tell what the aggregate borrows number ends up, but 10 seems like a very low amount since one of my readers alone ploughed through 6 books in a day or so. I could easily do the same, so that is why I'm going with 10 a month. I could do probably 1 full length book and 2-3 novellas a week and easily be doing that number which brings me back to the 50-70 cents number.

I'm not speculating for a 'tin-foil hat oh noes the world is ending' - as a business person I want to know what the bottom line is 'most likely' to be - since Amazon haven't been forthcoming with that number the best we can do is run the scenarios based on best, worst and middle cases and determine how that would affect us both in and out of the scheme.

Do i stress over it? of course to a certain extent. I have a plan that relies on XYZ and it has suddenly been upended by a major retailer introducing a new model that could change the dynamics of the business I work in. Its prudent to think 'is this good for me?' or 'is this bad for me?' and work out a game plan based on various outcomes in advance.

What I don't like is the fact Amazon isn't prepared to nail its colours to the mast and say 'this is our scheme and we're prepared to underwrite the risk by ensuring you get 2.50 or 3.00 per borrow. They have transferred the entire risk onto our shoulders.

Worse case scenario is that select authors wake up to find they are getting 35 cents a borrow and their sales collapse in the space of the next two months.
Best case scenario is that select authors make out like bandits and get a huge cash windfall.
Likely scenario is that there is a gradual shift from paid sales to unlimited borrows and Amazon let the KOLL rate gradually decline 10 cents a month so there isn't a sudden shock outpouring of select authors, but there is a measurable decline in earnings over the mid term.

All speculation. But the entire of wall street make billions on speculation by making the smartest bet they can with information to hand coupled to their best guess, I'm no different, I want my books best placed to get the best ROI i can, thus I'm reading everyones opinions on this thread because honestly speaking Amazon has left us in the dark and it is such a big event that we are bound to feel a little WHOA JIM about it for the next few days, months until we see what happens.

I don't think the sky is going to fall in, but then I don't think this is suddenly all going to give us James Patterson's bank balance. As usual I suspect it will be somewhere between a gradual decline and getting the usual shaft off our business partners at the behest of their shareholders.

We're mere authors after all, we only write the damn books that powers their gravy train. No reason to expect we should profit the most from that fact is there beyond the fact they'd have blank paper to sell without us.


----------



## Daniel Knight

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> It's in Amazon's best interest to make as much money as possible to satisfy the shareholders. With respect, whether you're "happy" or not doesn't matter so long as you feel compelled or even forced to keep your content available on their platform.


And how do they make money if indies pull their content (which is what would happen if royalty rates plummeted)? How are indies compelled or forced to keep content in Select?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

I don't have much to add, except that my brain hurts. And that whichever option is going to make me more successful... I hope I do _that_.


----------



## Daniel Knight

Vaalingrade said:


> Actually no. Select, aside from KOLL has been effectively worthless for years, but people keep going into it because publishing and promoting to the other channels is like really hard you guys and I get almost as much as my regular royalty on borrows.
> 
> Plenty of people are going to stay with it even when it's paying 20 cents per.
> 
> When.


You contradicted yourself. You said KOLL has been worthless but you still get almost as much for a borrow as a regular royalty.

Why would people stay with it if goes down to only 20 cents, when they can get more outside of Select (on Amazon) or through other channels? Given the number of people who are already shying away based on this theoretical drop in royalty rate I think a lot of indies would then leave select.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Deke said:


> This is what irks me a bit about Amazon...are they are venue for me to sell my wares, or are they a store that sells what they want on their terms? Like the Hachette situation, I'm not crazy about them dictating the price my work is sold for. While this is a great situation for readers...heck I'm tempted to join myself...I wonder if it puts writers further away from the driver's seat.


They're a store that sells what they want, on their terms. They always have been.

The only place a writer is fully in the driver's seat is when you're selling direct, from your own car trunk or website or otherwise hand-selling your stuff direct from you to your reader. Pretty much anything else requires following someone else's terms and conditions in order to sell your wares.


----------



## STubbs

I hate to say it, but I think this is going to be a disaster for a lot of smaller fish.  They seem to have a pretty impressive amount of name-brand content enrolled in this. 

From the perspective of non-fiction authors, price was a real competitive advantage.  A new Kindle user might want a book about fly-fishing.  An indie author's $2.99 guide to fly-fishing was worth the impulse purchase, as the alternative might have been a $9.99 guide to fly-fishing from some establish outdoor living brand.  

If they're both free to the KU subscriber, these customers are going to opt for the name-brand every time.  

It'll work the same way for fiction.  A new Stephen King is available next to an unknown author's horror story?  They're both free?  Guess where the audience goes.

This is the "end of days" change in Amazon's business model that I've been sweating for a couple of years now.


----------



## Daniel Knight

Vaalingrade said:


> At $10 a month, they literally cannot do that.
> 
> That would assume 5 books a month, when some folks blast through four times that in a week. I've got friends who will be costing Amazon money on their subscription by Sunday.


Your making an assumption on what the typical user of the subscription will be like based on unique cases in your own life.


----------



## Jim Johnson

STubbs said:


> If they're both free to the KU subscriber, these customers are going to opt for the name-brand every time.
> 
> It'll work the same way for fiction. A new Stephen King is available next to an unknown author's horror story? They're both free? Guess where the audience goes.


Erm...if it's all effectively free under the same $9.99 subscription cost, you could just as easily speculate that a reader might pick *both* options. There's no barrier to choosing one or the other, so why not? They're not out anything but time to read the nobody compared to Stephen King.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Daniel Knight said:


> You contradicted yourself. You said KOLL has been worthless but you still get almost as much for a borrow as a regular royalty.


I did not. I said 'Select, aside from KOLL, has been worthless'. Aside from KOLL. KOLL was the only thing worthwhile and not by much.


----------



## Daniel Knight

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Not at all, because plenty of people in this very thread have already stated they would sacrifice royalties for "exposure." The quest for exposure has done more to drive down author payments than almost anything else. Authors place far too much weight on this phantom concept of exposure without much regard as to the quality of consumer they might be exposed to. All exposure is not created equal, but plenty of people will not only happily not make money, but take a loss, in order to get "exposure" on Amazon. And it only takes a handful of authors claiming that exposure helped them become bestsellers to continue the drive of content providers.


And a lot of people in this thread have already stated they won't enter the program because of a theoretical drop in royalties they are predicting. I think if that prediction came true, the exodus of content providers would be dramatic. Remember, you can still sell your books on Amazon outside of Select.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Daniel Knight said:


> Your making an assumption on what the typical user of the subscription will be like based on unique cases in your own life.


And, you know, the data collected over YEARS by romance writers.

But that's all nonsense, I'm sure. Better to put on the rose-tinted glasses, bend over and say 'ah'.


----------



## Gabriela Popa

Oh well a new club has just been formed and the price for admittance is exclusivity.  Exclusivity is wonderful when you are the owner of that exclusive property, not when you are the entity owned.  As far as this club goes, being outside of the club is bad (terrible visibility and the fact that someone will have to pay outside a subscription for you to make a sale) and being in the club is not much better (loss of control over revenue per book; phasing out the royalty system)

This seems like a great idea for amazon but my two cents is that really it will not survive in the long run.  Let's analyze this: first, as a KDP Select author, you are trapped in the pool.  The size of the $ pool is  controlled 100% by amazon.  And then comes the juicy part: more total readers, less money per author.  Now that spells out brilliance    ...or  not. Seems to me like a desperate measure on amazon's part.  Certainly the business model is not well thought.  Let's hope it's temporary.


----------



## Quiss

My (selfishly petty) hope:

KU will be swamped by 99-centers, novellas, porn rags, serials that may or may not be serials, get-rich-quick scammers, all hoping for a disproportional share of the fund.
Bezos worshipers, contract-bound authors, and vanity publishers will keep their books in KU to get 30 cents. Only Stephen King and Rowling sells.
Authors of longer titles will go "pffft, bite me" and stay out of Select
Readers will be disgusted by the selection and drop their subscription to go in search of full-length books
The end.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

This does make me reconsider going permafree with book 1 in my trilogy. Book 3 is set to released in late August, and especially after reading Annie Jacoby's thread extolling its virtues, I'd been thinking that now might be the time to try that strategy. I got picked up by POI two years ago and had 15k downloads, which was definitely nice. 

Now I'm wondering if jumping into KU might be worth a shot, while enrollment is at its lowest, just to see what happens. I used to get as many borrows as sales, maybe that trend would continue. Hard to know what to do, but I guess if I'm going to give it a shot, now might be the time. I could be back out by October.

Decisions, decisions...


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

Betsy the Quilter said:


> The discussion by Kindle owners in Let's Talk Kindle belies this. Most have said they're not interested based on the current content.
> 
> I'm interested because of the audiobook tie-in.
> 
> Betsy


This is what I thought, it will be difficult to attract a large number of subscribers without content from the A-Players ie. big name authors.


----------



## STubbs

Jim Johnson said:


> Erm...if it's all effectively free under the same $9.99 subscription cost, you could just as easily speculate that a reader might pick *both* options. There's no barrier to choosing one or the other, so why not? They're not out anything but time to read the nobody compared to Stephen King.


In the past: Mom gets a new Kindle for Christmas and goes poking around the store looking for freebies, lower priced titles, and some higher priced titles to fill up her device.

In the future: When mom gets a new Kindle, she signs up for the $9.99 plan and fills it with all the latest books from all the authors she knows. The end.

If this really catches on, and I suspect it will, then BookBub and all similar sites are effectively SOL. Unknown authors could become a total after-thought for mainstream readers if the pricing of work is taken totally out of the equation.


----------



## EC

@Josef - 

You are assuming far too much.  The stat floating about just now is that only 2% of Scribd customers read more than 10 books a month. 

KU will not achieve blanket saturation, what you fear is a percentage of a percentage. Chill out.


----------



## KZoe

Daniel Knight said:


> Secondly, your math is predicated on your own speculation about how many books the average reader will read. As Lisa pointed out earlier and I have repeated a couple of times, Scribd, another subscription service for which we already have data, only sees 2% of their users read more than 10 books a month - which suggests using 10 books a month for the average reader is probably wildly off.


The only reference to the 2% number I could find was a New York times quote from December 2013 -- just two months after Scribd launched it's subscription service with 100,000 titles. [Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/25/technology/as-new-services-track-habits-the-e-books-are-reading-you.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0]. If there's a more recent stat available, I'd love to see the source and see how things are shaping nearly a year after launch with over 400,000 titles available.

It's important to note that Scribd isn't paying their content providers out of a pool as Amazon will be doing. Scribd authors get a set amount, right? In talking about 2% (power users), how many users is that, exactly? If Scribd has 1,000,000 subscribers (this is just an example; can't find data on how many subscribers they really have) that's 20,000 who're reading at least 10 books a month. How would 20,000 power readers/subscribers in Amazon KU affect the pool payouts? I worry about how a large subscription base can scale and offer a satisfactory return for authors.


----------



## Jim Johnson

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> This is what I thought, it will be difficult to attract a large number of subscribers without content from the A-Players ie. big name authors.


I honestly don't think Amazon rolled out KU expecting they'd have a hard time attracting subscribers. Here's one perspective:



> This may just be the largest endorsement of independent authors and their work . . . pretty much ever.
> 
> And that's what it is. Those 600,000 books? There are some from publishers, small and somewhat larger alike. Open Road Media is there with some Michael Chabon titles. There are a few other big names from popular presses. But the vast majority of them are by independent authors. There are 55,000 books in fantasy and science fiction alone, and most of those titles appear to be independent.
> 
> Amazon believed strongly enough in the quality of all that work to launch Kindle Unlimited without the support of a single corporate publisher. And it didn't just believe, mind you; it likely has all the data it could possibly want to bear out that this was a good move for them.


----------



## Guest

i truly believe that the rug has been pulled our from under us. time will tell if i am right or just panicking. But that is how i feel.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

Jim Johnson said:


> Users are capped at 10 books at a time.


That's really not "Unlimited then is it ;-)


----------



## Gabriela Popa

Quiss said:


> My (selfishly petty) hope:
> 
> KU will be swamped by 99-centers, novellas, porn rags, serials that may or may not be serials, get-rich-quick scammers, all hoping for a disproportional share of the fund.
> Bezos worshipers, contract-bound authors, and vanity publishers will keep their books in KU to get 30 cents. Only Stephen King and Rowling sells.
> Authors of longer titles will go "pffft, bite me" and stay out of Select
> Readers will be disgusted by the selection and drop their subscription to go in search of full-length books
> The end.


Plausible, actually.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> That's really not "Unlimited then is it ;-)


Well, sorta? Unlimited in that you can plow through as many books as you want within a month, within the controlled throttle of 10 books at a time.


----------



## Alondo

adanlerma said:


> I hope not, but authors can and do publish on Scribd, Oyster, libraries, iTunes, B&N, Kobo, Smashwords, and soon, txtr and others; myself included.


I've been trying to understand this thread, but I feel like a total thicko. Here are my questions.

1) What is KOLL? (I know that KRULL was a really bad fantasy movie.)

2) What are Oyster and "scribd"(? Is that what it's really called or did someone just get fed up with typing the word?) Should I put my books there?

3) Should I take each of my 130,000 word series novels, split them into 26, 5000-word installments and release them on Kindle unlimited?


----------



## adanlerma

A day later, but some comments from Scribd & Oyster :

http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/07/17/oyster-scribd-comment-kindle-unlimited/#comment-548103


----------



## KOwrites

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Probably just start enforcing their policies regarding offering the same price everywhere. It is in the TOS that you aren't suppose to offer a lower price elsewhere. To date, Amazon has turned a blind eye to that. But they can enforce it at any time with one of their nasty "you have five days to resolve or else" emails.


+ 1 _Exactly_.

*Josef Black has it exactly right on every salient point he's made. *

I will summarize my first thoughts/takeaways just to purge out the distaste in my mouth with the KU as of this moment...

KDP Select / KU - the _exclusivity_ sucks -

it sucks for your readers using Nooks, iPads, & Kobo ereaders
it sucks for me as an author because the idea of putting all my books in one place/one basket just didn't seem smart any longer and I have been out of Select since late 2012.

Please do note that big, glaring difference between Scribd's buffet and others mentioned is that these companies do not require exclusivity to their platform. I have a personal problem with Scribd because of takedown notices I had to send them late last year and remain unconvinced that they are now a savory bunch solely based on where they've been/where they come from. I completely agree with H.M. Ward's eye patch analogy when it comes to Scribd.

Pool of money divvied up for borrows and 10% reads...

You dig?

Novels of 100K or more (mine) absolutely kills the incentive to even write them. A reader sampling my work such as TMIT gets 5 1/2 chapters of a 46 chapter book. How generous am I? But how naive do I look now with this kind of a program in place?

Serials and novellas will probably rule the platform for the $9.99 voracious readers as well as the prolific authors; and, yes, absolutely, this will impact romance writers' sales outside of KU/Kindle Select because why pay for an individual book when you can read something similar in KU?

Bookbub - throw all the stats they've collected for charging what they charge based on past downloads out the flipping window. In a month, past downloads won't be able to predict how well an ad with them will do. I'm especially worried because I have an ad with them coming out on 8/09.

KU will be the game changer and slow sales of "on sale" as well as regularly priced ones. Why bother waiting for the sales price when you can feed your reading addiction for $10 a month? In one fell swoop, Amazon has eliminated the problem of waiting until a book is on sale or free or regularly priced. Readers can feed their reading habit and save a boatload of money regardless. It literally frees up readers' time by not having to follow an offering like Bookbub's to determine what to read next and/or if it's on sale. It will literally change readers buying habits in a big way.

It's all good for those Kindle readers, but it doesn't tie them to _me_, the author, regardless of whether or not they love my work. They can just move along to someone else's work in KU because the price of any book--really, _the value of any book_--has been obliterated by the $9.99 a month KU buffet.

And for KU/KDP Select authors? Perhaps, the most glaring of all? You'll never know what your book(s) are actually garnering in terms of revenue until you get your KU/KDP Select payout and do the math...much later than real time, much more akin to the trad publishers way of paying out authors for all these decades. "Don't worry your pretty little head about the math, authors. Just don't."

It won't impact me this way because, for now, I'm not signing up for the KU/KDP Select program (been there, done that, have the t-shirt) based upon my overall uneasy feeling with exclusivity, but _I know_ it will impact my sales. Just like the hiding of free tabs changed the game when that happened for so many. KU coupled with KDP Select does the same thing. In that way, although I just signed that petition extolling my thanks to Amazon for the opportunity to publish, I can already feel the ground of certainty shifting beneath my feet with this kind of program. I can't project out three years from now what my income will be and say with any certainty that I'll be making a living at this. If anything, it causes me to pause and reevaluate and possibly recalibrate my marketing strategies with all platforms and even the work itself.


----------



## Jim Johnson

STubbs said:


> Unknown authors could become a total after-thought for mainstream readers if the pricing of work is taken totally out of the equation.


Heck, as long as we're all speculating and spit-balling...it might possibly even be the ultimate leveling of the playing field too. Take it to the extreme--all books are now effectively the same price. How do you compete? Good storytelling, good writing, good cover, good ad copy/blurb/promo text.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Jim Johnson said:


> Well, sorta? Unlimited in that you can plow through as many books as you want within a month, within the controlled throttle of 10 books at a time.


Right--that was the Netflix model with 2, 3, or 4 at a time physical copies of discs. But they still called it unlimited b/c you were only limited by how fast you were at watching and returning them. Amazon is doing the same.


----------



## Rykymus

There is nothing yet to panic about. All of my episodes are in Select and have been since Select started. Borrows earn me the same revenue as sales. If I begin to make less money due to KU, I will simply pull my titles from Select and move on.

As others have said, things change and we adapt.

25 pages of "the sky is falling" isn't exactly adapting, though.


----------



## Jan Strnad

So far today my sales are down 88%. 

FWIW.


----------



## adanlerma

Alondo said:


> I've been trying to understand this thread, but I feel like a total thicko. Here are my questions.
> 
> 1) What is KOLL? (I know that KRULL was a really bad fantasy movie.)
> 
> 2) What are Oyster and "scribd"(? Is that what it's really called or did someone just get fed up with typing the word?) Should I put my books there?
> 
> 3) Should I take each of my 130,000 word series novels, split them into 26, 5000-word installments and release them on Kindle unlimited?


Alondo, I know how you feel lol!

I've been trying to keep up with all the changes the last few years and wondered what the heck myself 

Oyster and Scribd are real names of ebook subscription companies. KOLL is the Kindle Owners Lending Library.

For me, I have all my current titles with the Scribd and Oyster, but not KOLL. Best if you Google the names 'cause there's a lot of info regarding both.

The big difference for me is I don't have to be exclusive with either Scribd or Oyster, and I get a set royalty when my book is read past specific thresholds.

Should you split up your current work? My opinion is only if it suits you to do so.

Best luck to you, it should be obvious a lot of us are confused or in doubt or just don't know. Oh, that's me


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> This is what I thought, it will be difficult to attract a large number of subscribers without content from the A-Players ie. big name authors.


But from the Publisher's Marketplace article Amazon can put any "A-Player" in whenever they want (which is how Hunger Games is in there now). The books they add without publisher or writer consent get paid as if they got a regular sale as soon as someone downloads (no 10% requirement). These "A-Players" will make a mint, and Amazon will gladly put some really major loss-leaders in.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Rykymus said:


> 25 pages of "the sky is falling" isn't exactly adapting, though.


No, but stocks in Orville Redenbacher and Pop Secret are up!


----------



## omar

This is really confusing. 

I don't see how this could be of benefit to authors with a catalog. People may download an authors entire catalog out of excitement and never read it. 

My main problem with KU this is that Amazon is only paying you if someone reads more than 10% of your book. That's like letting someone take a book from Barnes and Noble  for free and come back and pay if and when they read a portion of the book...

People generally skip through sections and read on their own terms. They usually don't read the book directly upon downloading so now Amazon is creating a gap between customer purchase and earned royalties. How will this truly be accounted for?

What if someone downloads a book and reads it a week later? What about when someone refs the book off and on?

The other thing that annoys me is that Amazon doesn't hold conferences and keynotes with its authors to help us understand and answer our questions about their new policies. 
Perhaps alot of confusion can be alleviated that way. 

To see what's going to happen to royalties I'm considering two options:
1. I'm wondering whether I should opt my entire catalog out of KDP select now and reenter new books one by one.

2. Or lleave my entire catalog in KDP select. Wait until August, see how royalties are affected and opt out then.


----------



## adanlerma

Jim Johnson said:


> Heck, as long as we're all speculating and spit-balling...it might possibly even be the ultimate leveling of the playing field too. Take it to the extreme--all books are now effectively the same price. How do you compete? Good storytelling, good writing, good cover, good ad copy/blurb/promo text.


Jim, Scribd and Oyster began "leveling the playing field" early this year, and I think Amazon's response is a testament to how well that's worked.

These are Scribd and Oyster's comments yesterday : http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/07/17/oyster-scribd-comment-kindle-unlimited/#comment-548103


----------



## adanlerma

Signing off guys.

It's great to be excited about the changes.

And it's even greater to be able to discuss them here on the KBoards.

All the best to all us indies


----------



## Alondo

adanlerma said:


> Alondo, I know how you feel lol!
> 
> I've been trying to keep up with all the changes the last few years and wondered what the heck myself
> 
> Oyster and Scribd are real names of ebook subscription companies. KOLL is the Kindle Owners Lending Library.
> 
> For me, I have all my current titles with the Scribd and Oyster, but not KOLL. Best if you Google the names 'cause there's a lot of info regarding both.
> 
> The big difference for me is I don't have to be exclusive with either Scribd or Oyster, and I get a set royalty when my book is read past specific thresholds.
> 
> Should you split up your current work? My opinion is only if it suits you to do so.
> 
> Best luck to you, it should be obvious a lot of us are confused or in doubt or just don't know. Oh, that's me


Thanks for your kind and understanding reply. I will google oyster and scribd and see if they will let me put my work there.

Splitting one of my books into 26 parts was a bit of a joke, but seriously, I am in the middle of writing a new book now, so it occurred to me that I could effectively get "paid as I work" by releasing content on Select/Kindle Unlimited as it's written in say, 5000-word installments, and then depending on how it did, I could always remove them from Select at a later date and then release the complete book across all platforms.

Can you see any cons with that plan?


----------



## Renata F. Barcelos

I picked a book today after signing up for the KU free trial, read it and posted a review.

It doesn't show up as 'verified purchase', and I don't know what to think about that...


----------



## Jim Johnson

omar said:


> I don't see how this could be of benefit to authors with a catalog. People may download an authors entire catalog out of excitement and never read it.


Except that users can only have 10 books downloaded at a time. So they could download part of one author's catalog, but would have to either read them or return them to download more.


----------



## Rykymus

It seems to me that it boils down to exactly what the average payout will be for a qualifying read. If it is the same or better than the $2 I get for a purchase, I'm okay. Until I see real results rather than wild speculation, I am not in a position to make an intelligent choice.


----------



## EC

Jan Strnad said:


> So far today my sales are down 88%.
> 
> FWIW.


Now that is terrifying, Jan - I hope it's a fluke or reporting glitch.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

Just got an email about it from Amazon. You have to be enrolled in KDP Select.


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

Jim Johnson said:


> I honestly don't think Amazon rolled out KU expecting they'd have a hard time attracting subscribers. Here's one perspective:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This may just be the largest endorsement of independent authors and their work . . . pretty much ever.
> 
> And that's what it is. Those 600,000 books? There are some from publishers, small and somewhat larger alike. Open Road Media is there with some Michael Chabon titles. There are a few other big names from popular presses. But the vast majority of them are by independent authors. There are 55,000 books in fantasy and science fiction alone, and most of those titles appear to be independent.
> 
> Amazon believed strongly enough in the quality of all that work to launch Kindle Unlimited without the support of a single corporate publisher. And it didn't just believe, mind you; it likely has all the data it could possibly want to bear out that this was a good move for them.
Click to expand...

Wow. This is quite possibly the biggest bunch of hooey I've read all day. This isn't an endorsement of indies. It's an exploitation of a pool of content which they already have exclusive rights to, at least temporarily. Dumping these titles into KU was convenient. a true endorsement would be to open KU up to indies NOT enrolled in select.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

I'm sensing a lot of anger here, and much of the anger tint centers are "you are an idiot to stay in. The math doesn't work out." I think the anger is based on two theories supported by the common refrain I've read. 1.) Numbers won't work and you'll end up with .50 a book. No I won't. I'll be long gone by then, competing with your sales outside of Amazon. So will a TON of other authors doing just fine in Select right now. I'd be angry too if I suddenly had a flood of proven books hit my market. 2.) KU will definitely draw readers out of those markets. Readers have limited time, and once they get hooked on unlimited books, they won't go back, except for their favorites. Possibly. I'd be a little angry about this. KU is mostly Indie books you say? Well, I read 90% indie titles these days. Lots of good indie books out there, right? Anyone here think the Indie market sucks? It's the great untapped source of literature! I think I've heard that here once or twice. Once readers figure this out, they have an incredible backlist to work from. 

If you're angry because you think those willing to give KU a chance (or not make a snap judgment) are stupid, I can live with that...but I think it goes way deeper than that. I sense a lot of fear, and rightfully so. Whether KU succeeds or fails, boats will sink outside of Amazon.


----------



## Jim Johnson

adanlerma said:


> Jim, Scribd and Oyster began "leveling the playing field" early this year, and I think Amazon's response is a testament to how well that's worked.
> 
> These are Scribd and Oyster's comments yesterday : http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/07/17/oyster-scribd-comment-kindle-unlimited/#comment-548103


Awesome stuff. Thanks for the link! Clearly Amazon saw some money in the subscription realm.


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## starkllr

Aside from everything else, I truly hate that on some level, KU makes all of us authors competitors with each other in a way we weren't before.  Right now, sales of your book don't impact sales of mine.  So long as readers buy my book, your sales have no affect on my income.  I hope you do well.  I hope you sell a million copies, so long as I sell as many as I can, too.

But under KU, every download of one of your books reduces the payment per download that I receive.  It's in my financial interest to see you fail, for nobody to download your book.  And it's in your interest to see me fail.  Just as a  philosophical mindset, I don't see how that can possibly be a positive thing for authors.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Steven Konkoly said:


> I'm sensing a lot of anger here, and much of the anger tint centers are "you are an idiot to stay in. The math doesn't work out." I think the anger is based on two theories supported by the common refrain I've read. 1.) Numbers won't work and you'll end up with .50 a book. No I won't. I'll be long gone by then, competing with your sales outside of Amazon. So will a TON of other authors doing just fine in Select right now. I'd be angry too if I suddenly had a flood of proven books hit my market. 2.) KU will definitely draw readers out of those markets. Readers have limited time, and once they get hooked on unlimited books, they won't go back, except for their favorites. Possibly. I'd be a little angry about this. KU is mostly Indie books you say? Well, I read 90% indie titles these days. Lots of good indie books out there, right? Anyone here think the Indie market sucks? It's the great untapped source of literature! I think I've heard that here once or twice. Once readers figure this out, they have an incredible backlist to work from.
> 
> If you're angry because you think those willing to give KU a chance (or not make a snap judgment) are stupid, I can live with that...but I think it goes way deeper than that. I sense a lot of fear, and rightfully so. Whether KU succeeds or fails, boats will sink outside of Amazon.


Agreed fully. Emotion rarely makes for good business.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> But from the Publisher's Marketplace article Amazon can put any "A-Player" in whenever they want (which is how Hunger Games is in there now). The books they add without publisher or writer consent get paid as if they got a regular sale as soon as someone downloads (no 10% requirement). These "A-Players" will make a mint, and Amazon will gladly put some really major loss-leaders in.


You have a good point. They will probably attract A-Players with sweetheart deals. Well, I don't plan to do KU because I don't want to be exclusive. But obviously, it may work for some writers. I guess it all comes down to strategy, which I'm still formulating for myself. It really is a learning experience and most importantly fun. 



Jim Johnson said:


> I honestly don't think Amazon rolled out KU expecting they'd have a hard time attracting subscribers. Here's one perspective:


As much as my ego wants to believe that KU is an endorsement of how awesome Amazon thinks indies are, my head is telling me it's more of a business strategy for them. They've got a large amount of content and they're leveraging it to attract subscribers and maybe A-Players too.


----------



## Fishbowl Helmet

Jim Johnson said:


> Erm...if it's all effectively free under the same $9.99 subscription cost, you could just as easily speculate that a reader might pick *both* options. There's no barrier to choosing one or the other, so why not? They're not out anything but time to read the nobody compared to Stephen King.


So when the cost in money is the same either way, the next factor to consider is the cost in time, which is then compared to the perceived value of each. If there's a brand new Stephen King next to some unknown horror writer, the audience will pick King time and again. Unless they're a 'whale reader' (damn does that phrase leave a bad taste in my mouth) who has the time to read both, but as most people aren't those 'whale readers' most people will not have time for both, so they'll pick whichever they think is the better bet for their time. Again, they'll pick the known over the unknown almost every time.


----------



## EC

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> You have a good point. They will probably attract A-Players with sweetheart deals. Well, I don't plan to do KU because I don't want to be exclusive. But obviously, it may work for some writers. I guess it all comes down to strategy, which I'm still formulating for myself. It really is a learning experience and most importantly fun.
> 
> As much as my ego wants to believe that KU is an endorsement of how awesome Amazon thinks indies are, my head is telling me it's more of a business strategy for them. They've got a large amount of content and they're leveraging it to attract subscribers and maybe A-Players too.


I can't see it working both ways - if the gloomsters are correct and the royalty drops to say, 40 cents, why would an A-lister want to participate?


----------



## Fishbowl Helmet

omar said:


> My main problem with KU this is that Amazon is only paying you if someone reads more than 10% of your book. That's like letting someone take a book from Barnes and Noble for free and come back and pay if and when they read a portion of the book...
> 
> People generally skip through sections and read on their own terms. They usually don't read the book directly upon downloading so now Amazon is creating a gap between customer purchase and earned royalties. How will this truly be accounted for?


Bingo. Huge privacy concern, no? Amazon will have to monitor exactly what you're doing on your Kindle device or app to be sure of exactly how you're reading for this scheme to work. Damn. This just keeps getting better.


----------



## EC

Fishbowl Helmet said:


> So when the cost in money is the same either way, the next factor to consider is the cost in time, which is then compared to the perceived value of each. If there's a brand new Stephen King next to some unknown horror writer, the audience will pick King time and again. Unless they're a 'whale reader' (d*mn does that phrase leave a bad taste in my mouth) who has the time to read both, but as most people aren't those 'whale readers' most people will not have time for both, so they'll pick whichever they think is the better bet for their time. Again, they'll pick the known over the unknown almost every time.


What if they hate Stephen King? What if they've read it already? What if they are attracted by the cover and the blurb of the indie author? what if a million things?

There's too much of a rush to second-guess readers.


----------



## richard.r.fox

Riddle me this: How much do non-Indie books receive for each KU qualified read?

There are 47North titles and other publisher titles (Harry Potter) in KU. Don't tell me the publishing house agreed to a cut of the KOLL/KS pool of money. I'd bet money Pottermore gets full price on the list price for a qualified read. 

Does this seem fair? Granted, we don't know the details but we can feel enough parts to know this is an elephant we're dealing with. The publishers who get list price must not get paid from the same KOLL/KS pool. If so, hello pennies per read. 

All of a sudden, an Indie author's guild to negotiate with Amazon seems better.


----------



## Quiss

EC said:


> I can't see it working both ways - if the gloomsters are correct and the royalty drops to say, 40 cents, why would an A-lister want to participate?


Because the A-listers re getting a separate deal. It's not like Stephen King is actually in Select.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Fishbowl Helmet said:


> Bingo. Huge privacy concern, no? Amazon will have to monitor exactly what you're doing on your Kindle device or app to be sure of exactly how you're reading for this scheme to work. d*mn. This just keeps getting better.


Surely you don't think they don't already have a real good idea of reader habits? Come on, now.  My Kindle Touch tracks my reading speed and shows me at a glance how far I've read and how far I've got to go in the book. I'm sure somehow, someway, those tidbits of data are in an Amazon database somewhere.


----------



## EC

Quiss said:


> Because the A-listers re getting a separate deal. It's not like Stephen King is actually in Select.


From the same pool of money?


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

EC said:


> I can't see it working both ways - if the gloomsters are correct and the royalty drops to say, 40 cents, why would an A-lister want to participate?


Sweetheart deals. Someone upthread said that Amazon may offer A-Players special deals, a fixed amount (for example $2) per download. In other words, while the unwashed masses get paid as part of a big money pot, the big names get a fixed and guaranteed dollar amount for each download. Now I think that's just speculation, I'm not sure. But I can see it happening.


----------



## Deke

Okay my game plan is to become an A-lister.  Good to have a goal.

But seriously, I wonder if this will encourage some authors to sell outside of Kindle entirely…maybe on Amazon as hard copies.  Or will this open the possibility of a competing service that gives authors a better deal.  Put the first in a series on Kindle-whatever, but have the rest on some other source.  

The holy grail would be getting the contact info of every buyer.


----------



## Fishbowl Helmet

richard.r.fox said:


> Riddle me this: How much do non-Indie books receive for each KU qualified read?
> 
> There are 47North titles and other publisher titles (Harry Potter) in KU. Don't tell me the publishing house agreed to a cut of the KOLL/KS pool of money. I'd bet money Pottermore gets full price on the list price for a qualified read.
> 
> Does this seem fair? Granted, we don't know the details but we can feel enough parts to know this is an elephant we're dealing with. The publishers who get list price must not get paid from the same KOLL/KS pool. If so, hello pennies per read.
> 
> All of a sudden, an Indie author's guild to negotiate with Amazon seems better.


Dunnit though?

Chances are the kitty left for indie authors will be what's left after Amazon takes their cut, the big boys take their cut, the overhead is cut... so the scraps left on the table after the meal.


----------



## Fishbowl Helmet

starkllr said:


> Aside from everything else, I truly hate that on some level, KU makes all of us authors competitors with each other in a way we weren't before. Right now, sales of your book don't impact sales of mine. So long as readers buy my book, your sales have no affect on my income. I hope you do well. I hope you sell a million copies, so long as I sell as many as I can, too.
> 
> But under KU, every download of one of your books reduces the payment per download that I receive. It's in my financial interest to see you fail, for nobody to download your book. And it's in your interest to see me fail. Just as a philosophical mindset, I don't see how that can possibly be a positive thing for authors.


Before it just wasn't put in those terms, but it was the same thing. A reader only has so much money to spend, if he's buying your book that's less money to spend on mine. If they're reading my book for 10 hours, that's 10 fewer hours they have to read my book.

It's the same as it ever was, only now it's far more explicit.


----------



## Jim Johnson

richard.r.fox said:


> All of a sudden, an Indie author's guild to negotiate with Amazon seems better.


I'm not sure how a guild would benefit authors in this case. Amazon's a store that can dictate whatever terms it wants. The negotiations would basically be, "If you don't like our terms, don't sign up. Feel free to use the regular KDP service or sell your wares via our competitors." Unless I'm missing something, anyway.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

Deke said:


> Okay my game plan is to become an A-lister. Good to have a goal.
> 
> But seriously, I wonder if this will encourage some authors to sell outside of Kindle entirely...maybe on Amazon as hard copies. Or will this open the possibility of a competing service that gives authors a better deal. Put the first in a series on Kindle-whatever, but have the rest on some other source.
> 
> The holy grail would be getting the contact info of every buyer.


Hey, I want to be an A-lister too, don't we all.  I've been part of this board for two years now, and if the attitudes here are indicative of the attitudes of the wider indie writer community, I don't see indies leaving Kindle or even Kindle Select anytime soon, nor do I think they should. It's just that I think we need to grow up a little. That statement is for myself mostly. We can't just depend on Amazon forever. We have to learn how to market our work on a broader scale. It's difficult and it's a steep learning curve, but I think it's worth it. I think you're onto something about getting contact info, I've been feverishly building my mailing list because I want to have some type of database of readers that I can call on no matter what Amazon (or any of the other retailers) does. That said, like all of us, I'm still learning and there are a lot of unknown variables. In the end, each person has to do what works to help them reach their goals. And speaking of goals, I've got to log off. Great discussing this with you guys!


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

EC said:


> From the same pool of money?


No they are being paid as if the reader bought their book (assuming they read 10% if the book was added by the publisher. For books added by Amazon without the publisher's consent - they get the full amount without any reading requirement - just download).


----------



## books_mb

Alondo said:


> Splitting one of my books into 26 parts was a bit of a joke, but seriously, I am in the middle of writing a new book now, so it occurred to me that I could effectively get "paid as I work" by releasing content on Select/Kindle Unlimited as it's written in say, 5000-word installments, and then depending on how it did, I could always remove them from Select at a later date and then release the complete book across all platforms.
> 
> Can you see any cons with that plan?


This is actually driving me crazy. With equal share payments (which sounds nice, but is basically a price-dependent royalty rate), I don't see a con for any individual author. It seems like the KU system rewards authors for chopping up their books. Of course in the big picture there are cons. Crudely: Authors start chopping up their books = total number borrows increases = less royalty per borrow for every author. Are there enough authors to game the system in this way? Also: Authors start chopping up their books = you have to buy the ten part instead of the three part series = hassle for readers. Amazon has to find a way to couple the royalties with the price, ideally keep the constant royalty rate.

It really sucks that Amazon treats the whole thing as a Soviet state secret. Come on, give us some insight on your plan.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> As much as my ego wants to believe that KU is an endorsement of how awesome Amazon thinks indies are, my head is telling me it's more of a business strategy for them. They've got a large amount of content and they're leveraging it to attract subscribers and maybe A-Players too.


I think the KDP people are being short-shifted. The traditional published books are being paid as if there was a sale....but the KDP people are getting a % of a pool that Amazon controls. At the very least the division should take into account the price of a book...but it doesn't. I would have been a lot happier if the KDP people got the same deal the publishers got - to me they are getting a "sweet deal" and most won't take it - which is ironic because I would jump at the chance to get what they are.


----------



## richard.r.fox

Jim Johnson said:


> I'm not sure how a guild would benefit authors in this case. Amazon's a store that can dictate whatever terms it wants. The negotiations would basically be, "If you don't like our terms, don't sign up. Feel free to use the regular KDP service or sell your wares via our competitors." Unless I'm missing something, anyway.


I want the same (better) deal Amazon has with Pottermore. I, and the vast majority of Indies with the exception of folks like Mr. Howey, don't have the clout to negotiate that kind of deal with Amazon. But if we all got together...


----------



## STubbs

In short....


----------



## B&amp;H

Deke said:


> Okay my game plan is to become an A-lister. Good to have a goal.
> 
> But seriously, I wonder if this will encourage some authors to sell outside of Kindle entirely...maybe on Amazon as hard copies. Or will this open the possibility of a competing service that gives authors a better deal. Put the first in a series on Kindle-whatever, but have the rest on some other source.
> 
> The holy grail would be getting the contact info of every buyer.


heres some ideas:

1: set up a squarespace account. They have inbuilt commerce ability that allows you to sell digital downloads for instant delivery. Buyer gets a email link. You can set up a payment account with stripe and get paid after 7 days.
2: Squarespace offers coupons. Give your newsletter subscribers a 30 percent coupon off the RRP of your books. That is basically the retailer cut so you make the same cash. You could do 25 percent or whatever, but by doing it with coupons you can keep your RRP the same as Amazons and avoid price matching woes to give yourself a competitive edge.
3: Retail your paper books on your website and offer a bundle with the ebook included.

That way you incentivise your fans to subscribe to your mailing list by giving them money off your retailer, ensure your own direct sales are the cheapest channel.

Of course its a PITA to side load your ebooks but then the advantages are that Amazon can't delete them and 25-30 percent off might be enough incentive to at least get your core readership to go direct.


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## B&amp;H

STubbs said:


> In short....


Thanks for that. the sniffing glue thing gives me a ROFL moment every time i see it.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

Fishbowl Helmet said:


> So when the cost in money is the same either way, the next factor to consider is the cost in time, which is then compared to the perceived value of each. If there's a brand new Stephen King next to some unknown horror writer, the audience will pick King time and again. Unless they're a 'whale reader' (d*mn does that phrase leave a bad taste in my mouth) who has the time to read both, but as most people aren't those 'whale readers' most people will not have time for both, so they'll pick whichever they think is the better bet for their time. Again, they'll pick the known over the unknown almost every time.


Agreed and since Stephen King is paid as if it were a "normal purchase" his publisher will get much more than the KOLL pool division that the self-published author gets. Now...the author still only gets 25% of that. But let's break it down....

Stephen King's ebook is MSRP at $12.99 assuming the publishers is still getting 70% (as they were under agency) that means $9.10 to publisher and the author gets $2.23. A self-published author is getting about $2 (based on past history) regardless of what price their book sells for. Bottom line...the publishers are going to make A LOT of money. The traditional author will continue to make a small amount (but that is nature of that environment. The self-published author...who knows what will happen. If there are a fair number of "trad books" they will probably earn less as their sales will go down.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

EC said:


> I can't see it working both ways - if the gloomsters are correct and the royalty drops to say, 40 cents, why would an A-lister want to participate?


Because the A-listers aren't paid by the pool. They are paid as if a reader bought the book.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

richard.r.fox said:


> Riddle me this: How much do non-Indie books receive for each KU qualified read?
> 
> There are 47North titles and other publisher titles (Harry Potter) in KU. Don't tell me the publishing house agreed to a cut of the KOLL/KS pool of money. I'd bet money Pottermore gets full price on the list price for a qualified read.
> 
> Does this seem fair? Granted, we don't know the details but we can feel enough parts to know this is an elephant we're dealing with. The publishers who get list price must not get paid from the same KOLL/KS pool. If so, hello pennies per read.
> 
> All of a sudden, an Indie author's guild to negotiate with Amazon seems better.


There are two ways that a traditional book gets into KU. Either Amazon puts it there without the publisher's permission, or the publisher consents. In neither case are they paid from the KOLL pool. They are paid just as much as they would be if a reader bought the book (70% under old agency model - probably some other % with newly negotiated contracts). If the book is put in to KU by Amazon without publisher consent - they are paid 100% as soon as the download occurs (no 10% required). If they are put in by publisher consent - then they are paid the full wholesale price when 10% is read.


----------



## X. Aratare

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Because the A-listers aren't paid by the pool. They are paid as if a reader bought the book.


But here's something really BAD for trad, Michael, only the A-listers IN THE POOL that Amazon chooses will get this exposure. Those trad books NOT in the pool will still be priced higher than the indies not in the pool, making those trad books even LESS appealing.

So a reader's choice will be as follows:

(1) KU - some A-listers and all the rest indies, $9.95 a month, all inclusive.
(2) Indies not in the KU, but still priced lower than trad for most part, still in the splurge and don't think about it range of money for a lot of people and
(3) Finally, trad published who will still cost a ton more than indies and won't be in KU and will make the purchase of their books that much less likely. I wouldn't want to be here ... not at all.


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## Deke

I'm amazed the A-listers haven't set up their own distribution.  Why on earth would Rowling give a cut to anyone in this day and age?  She should set up her own site and cut out the middle-men entirely.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> Sweetheart deals. Someone upthread said that Amazon may offer A-Players special deals, a fixed amount (for example $2) per download. In other words, while the unwashed masses get paid as part of a big money pot, the big names get a fixed and guaranteed dollar amount for each download. Now I think that's just speculation, I'm not sure. But I can see it happening.


They do get a "sweetheart deal" they get paid as if the reader bought the book. This is from Publisher's Weekly via their publisher's lunch post:

Filling in one of the unanswered questions for authors, Amazon Publishing authors will be compensated in a manner similar to that to for authors of publishers that agreed to participate. As Amazon Publishing executive Jeff Belle wrote to agents in an email, "every time a customer reads more than 10% of your author's book through Kindle Unlimited (about the size of the current free samples available for Kindle books), your author will earn their full ebook royalty rate based on the average sale price of their book for the given month."


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## Shelley K

What makes anyone think a group of independently published writers banded together into some sort of organized body can affect Amazon's decisions? Because a big organization with a ton of capital and might, like, oh, Hachette, for instance, is so successful at bending Amazon to their will?


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## X. Aratare

Deke said:


> I'm amazed the A-listers haven't set up their own distribution. Why on earth would Rowling give a cut to anyone in this day and age? She should set up her own site and cut out the middle-men entirely.


She does have her own site: Pottermore.

But Amazon gives her A LOT of exposure, too. I'm sure Amazon pays a TON to have her in KU.


----------



## Rachel Aukes

richard.r.fox said:


> Riddle me this: How much do non-Indie books receive for each KU qualified read?
> 
> There are 47North titles and other publisher titles (Harry Potter) in KU. Don't tell me the publishing house agreed to a cut of the KOLL/KS pool of money. I'd bet money Pottermore gets full price on the list price for a qualified read.
> 
> Does this seem fair? Granted, we don't know the details but we can feel enough parts to know this is an elephant we're dealing with. The publishers who get list price must not get paid from the same KOLL/KS pool. If so, hello pennies per read.
> 
> All of a sudden, an Indie author's guild to negotiate with Amazon seems better.


I think that's only an assumption right now (that publishers will be paid the same for KU read that they would an ebook sale), not a fact... unless you've seen the actual verbiage from a publisher on this already.

A publisher I'm with (Adams Media) is in the KU program, and they said they are still working out the royalty details, which leads me to believe that a KU download/read will likely not be treated the same as a purchase.


----------



## Alondo

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> I think the KDP people are being short-shifted. The traditional published books are being paid as if there was a sale....but the KDP people are getting a % of a pool that Amazon controls. At the very least the division should take into account the price of a book...but it doesn't. I would have been a lot happier if the KDP people got the same deal the publishers got - to me they are getting a "sweet deal" and most won't take it - which is ironic because I would jump at the chance to get what they are.





books_mb said:


> This is actually driving me crazy. With equal share payments (which sounds nice, but is basically a price-dependent royalty rate), I don't see a con for any individual author. It seems like the KU system rewards authors for chopping up their books. Of course in the big picture there are cons. Crudely: Authors start chopping up their books = total number borrows increases = less royalty per borrow for every author. Are there enough authors to game the system in this way? Also: Authors start chopping up their books = you have to buy the ten part instead of the three part series = hassle for readers. Amazon has to find a way to couple the royalties with the price, ideally keep the constant royalty rate.
> 
> It really sucks that Amazon treats the whole thing as a Soviet state secret. Come on, give us some insight on your plan.


Well, I don't see that as "gaming the system". They create the rules. You would simply be operating within the rules they created. Second, I'm only thinking of books that are current works in progress. In other words, the reader can either read the next one of my works in installments as it's produced, or wait for the whole book to come out - their choice. I see it as similar to the choice between watching a series episode by episode each week on TV, or waiting for the release of the DVD Box Set. No one complains about that! I've yet to think of a con for authors. Yes, the more installments on offer, the greater the dilution of the subscription-based payout, but at least I'll get paid something for content as I write it. Something has to be better than nothing!


----------



## Jim Johnson

X. Aratare said:


> She does have her own site: Pottermore.
> 
> But Amazon gives her A LOT of exposure, too. I'm sure Amazon pays a TON to have her in KU.


Amazon and Pottermore also have an arrangement to have Amazon's buy buttons for the Potter books direct to Pottermore. I'm sure there's some beneficial money agreements in that between the two entities.


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## Deke

It wouldn't shock me if Rowling was a loss-leader and that Amazon is making nothing on her…just giving her exposure and 100% of the sales.


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## Michael_J_Sullivan

X. Aratare said:


> But here's something really BAD for trad, Michael, only the A-listers IN THE POOL that Amazon chooses will get this exposure. Those trad books NOT in the pool will still be priced higher than the indies not in the pool, making those trad books even LESS appealing.
> 
> So a reader's choice will be as follows:
> 
> (1) KU - some A-listers and all the rest indies, $9.95 a month, all inclusive.
> (2) Indies not in the KU, but still priced lower than trad for most part, still in the splurge and don't think about it range of money for a lot of people and
> (3) Finally, trad published who will still cost a ton more than indies and won't be in KU and will make the purchase of their books that much less likely. I wouldn't want to be here ... not at all.


We are in complete agreement but the fact remains, Amazon is treating the traditional published titles better than they are the indies. I would be much happier if the indies got the same deal the traditional were getting. I'm not saying that this is bad for indies...it's far too soon to tell...but I think this is the first time that Amazon hasn't treated indies and trad as equals. And the bottom line. The A-lister will get a sweet, sweet deal as is always the case of the 1%.


----------



## ricola

...people who signed up for the free trial read a lot of traditionally published books for which Amazon is committed to giving a fair royalty rate, rather than indie titles in Select, for which Amazon will just throttle down the royalty rate with the more reads they get.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

Deke said:


> I'm amazed the A-listers haven't set up their own distribution. Why on earth would Rowling give a cut to anyone in this day and age? She should set up her own site and cut out the middle-men entirely.


Not sure if this a joke or not. Just in case it's not. Rowling did set up her own distribution - it's called Pottermore. Amazon made a special one-time deal with her - none of this applies to Harry Potter books.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Hah. Here's a fun thought: Because $10 a month is not going to EVER cover the costs of the trad pub books being read via this, all that money you're _not _getting paid? It's going directly to Hated Trad Pub.

Put a big smile on your face because as independent as you thought you were--you're still working for them.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

X. Aratare said:


> She does have her own site: Pottermore.
> 
> But Amazon gives her A LOT of exposure, too. I'm sure Amazon pays a TON to have her in KU.


Amazon already had a big, direct license for Harry Potter for Kindle Owner's Lending Library...I'm sure they did something similar for KU. But Potter books are unique and really shouldn't be included as they have such a special situation due to Pottermore exclusivity.


----------



## X. Aratare

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> We are in complete agreement but the fact remains, Amazon is treating the traditional published titles better than they are the indies. I would be much happier if the indies got the same deal the traditional were getting. I'm not saying that this is bad for indies...it's far too soon to tell...but I think this is the first time that Amazon hasn't treated indies and trad as equals. And the bottom line. The A-lister will get a sweet, sweet deal as is always the case of the 1%.


I agree as well. I also think the "pot" idea is a bad one. I think it will encourage shortened works that shouldn't be shortened. I think that it will cause issues with people being able to make a living. Ironically, or maybe not, the BEST place to be is an Amazon imprints' author. You get their marketing machine and full royalties just like an a-lister would. I think you're also right that it may engender bad feelings which I would hate as well.

A friend of mine though said something that made me feel better all around, even though I AM an author who has the weird method of having their own serial site where readers pay a monthly fee just for my work, it's what we discovered marketing the site: books are NOT interchangeable. They are not like widgets. People sign up for my site NOT because there are 20k pages of work on it that they get for $9.95, but because of ONE book usually. They read the first five chapters and they HAVE to know the rest so they shell out the money thinking that they will read that one book and cancel. They'll get that book out of their system. But, if you're a clever author and realize why your readers love a certain thing you'll write other things that are different yet the same. And inevitably, these people will read another of the novels while they wait for the update on the one and they are like: OMG, I LOVE THIS NOVEL, TOO! And they read another and another ... Needless to say they realize that they are now reading all of the books and staying on for two months, three months, six months, a year or YEARS even after that one story they loved has finished long ago.

So people, remember that YOUR books are not other people's books. They are awesome in a way that no other book is. Merely having a large selection to choose from doesn't mean they won't want your book, too. KU will make it a little harder, but I still think it'll be good. That's my hope anyways.


----------



## books_mb

Alondo said:


> Well, I don't see that as "gaming the system". They create the rules. You would simply be operating within the rules they created. Second, I'm only thinking of books that are current works in progress. In other words, the reader can either read the next one of my works in installments as it's produced, or wait for the whole book to come out - their choice. I see it as similar to the choice between watching a series episode by episode each week on TV, or waiting for the release of the DVD Box Set. No one complains about that! I've yet to think of a con for authors. Yes, the more installments on offer, the greater the dilution of the subscription-based payout, but at least I'll get paid something for content as I write it. Something has to be better than nothing!


OK, I see your point. Not chopping up what you got, but rather release in installments = getting paid while finishing the content. The TV series analogy makes sense. "Gaming the system" might not have been the best words, but I think we can agree that the KU system rewards smaller books and might thus drive down royalty per borrow and lead to more hassle for readers. The royalty decrease itself is, if moderate, not the biggest problem. The problem I see that this system is highly unfair. Instead of getting a fixed royalty rate (70 %), your royalty rate will decrease with the price of your book. If the equal payout is 2 $, a 20 page 0.99 $ book virtually gets a 200 % royalty rate, while a 300 page 4 $ book gets 50 %. I mean, there must be a downside to flooding the market with he 0.99 $ books? I need to see the con, it's driving me mad.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

rachelaukes said:


> I think that's only an assumption right now (that publishers will be paid the same for KU read that they would an ebook sale), not a fact... unless you've seen the actual verbiage from a publisher on this already.


Agents have gotten letters and a Scholastic spokesperson has made a public statement. Both are from a Publisher's Lunch (Publisher's Weekly site)

For Publishers whose books were added to KU without permission, like Hunger Games, "Scholastic spokesperson Kyle Good confirms to us that it is "the same situation" for Kindle Unlimited -- Amazon informed Scholastic they would be including the books in this program and "they have the right to do it" under their current contract, though there was "no new negotiated deal" specifically covering this usage. As with KOLL, Scholastic will get paid their full wholesale price every time one of their ebooks is opened by a Kindle Unlimited subscriber."

Filling in one of the unanswered questions for authors, Amazon Publishing authors will be compensated in a manner similar to that to for authors of publishers that agreed to participate. As Amazon Publishing executive Jeff Belle wrote to agents in an email, "every time a customer reads more than 10% of your author's book through Kindle Unlimited (about the size of the current free samples available for Kindle books), your author will earn their full ebook royalty rate based on the average sale price of their book for the given month."



rachelaukes said:


> A publisher I'm with (Adams Media) is in the KU program, and they said they are still working out the royalty details, which leads me to believe that a KU download/read will likely not be treated the same as a purchase.


Smaller publishers may not get the same as the big-publishers so yes those people at small publishers will probably be a case-by-case basis.


----------



## Alondo

books_mb said:


> OK, I see your point. Not chopping up what you got, but rather release in installments = getting paid while finishing the content. The TV series analogy makes sense. "Gaming the system" might not have been the best words, but I think we can agree that the KU system rewards smaller books and might thus drive down royalty per borrow and lead to more hassle for readers. The royalty decrease itself is, if moderate, not the biggest problem. The problem I see that this system is highly unfair. Instead of getting a fixed royalty rate (70 %), your royalty rate will decrease with the price of your book. If the equal payout is 2 $, a 20 page 0.99 $ book virtually gets a 200 % royalty rate, while a 300 page 4 $ book gets 50 %. I mean, there must be a downside to flooding the market with he 0.99 $ books? I need to see the con, it's driving me mad.


Well again, if Amazon are designing their system in such a way that it pays to chop up my book, then why wouldn't I? Authors are always going to work within the rules of distributors. It also make it more likely I will get paid via KU because the reader has to read 10 percent, and 10 percent of 5000 words is a lot less than 10 percent of 100,000! If it's inconvenient for readers, then it's Amazon that are doing that, not me. It did also make me think of Wattpad, which chops up your book into chapter-sized bites for downloading. I've yet to hear anyone on Wattpad complain about that. The difference is that Wattpad won't pay me a penny, whereas KU will!


----------



## Redacted1111

I've been obsessively reading kboards like that time I raided the AQ gate opening event for eight hours in World of Warcraft. It's time for me to move away from the internet and go write or something.


----------



## Kassidia

Josef Black said:


> heres some ideas:
> 
> 1: set up a squarespace account. They have inbuilt commerce ability that allows you to sell digital downloads for instant delivery. Buyer gets a email link. You can set up a payment account with stripe and get paid after 7 days.
> 2: Squarespace offers coupons. Give your newsletter subscribers a 30 percent coupon off the RRP of your books. That is basically the retailer cut so you make the same cash. You could do 25 percent or whatever, but by doing it with coupons you can keep your RRP the same as Amazons and avoid price matching woes to give yourself a competitive edge.
> 3: Retail your paper books on your website and offer a bundle with the ebook included.
> That way you incentivise your fans to subscribe to your mailing list by giving them money off your retailer, ensure your own direct sales are the cheapest channel.
> 
> Of course its a PITA to side load your ebooks but then the advantages are that Amazon can't delete them and 25-30 percent off might be enough incentive to at least get your core readership to go direct.


I've had very good results selling digital products directly, including some ebooks, via GumRoad. https://gumroad.com/


----------



## 3rotic

Vaalingrade said:


> Hah. Here's a fun thought: Because $10 a month is not going to EVER cover the costs of the trad pub books being read via this, all that money you're _not _getting paid? It's going directly to Hated Trad Pub.
> 
> Put a big smile on your face because as independent as you thought you were--you're still working for them.


Dude, I'm just so glad that Vaal knows exactly what's going on behind the scenes. It's comforting to know that Amazon execs have invited him into the fold and explained their whole set-up so that he can come here and let us know just how badly we're about to get shafted. Thank goodness that he's got the facts and he isn't just speculating based on his rather strong opinions.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Show of hands, am I the only one who feels like she stepped into a time machine to read posts from 2011 when KDP Select originally rolled out?

You know, I'm sorry to say this but everyone has the same opportunity where it comes to publishing through Amazon, not a guarantee of the same results. Of course publishing companies with established track records and large libraries and back lists are going to get different treatment than me, Elizabeth Ann West, author/publisher with a novel, essay, and novella to her name and a thousand ghost-written articles. You don't get to just pick up a violin one day and demand a sold out performance at Carnegie Hall either.

When I was newer at this stuff, I ate all that rhetoric up. I was always posting and ranting and saying "it's not fair!" At the end of the day it's about just a few things. Write a good story, get it into the hands of as many readers as you can, and repeat. It takes time to be in the big leagues and in many professions, there isn't even a way in from the bottom for someone who just wakes up one day and decides they want to try. Amazon has already democratized the process of publishing and book sales so much, and we still get mad at them because they want to make money doing so. Well, don't we all?


----------



## books_mb

Alondo said:


> Well again, if Amazon are designing their system in such a way that it pays to chop up my book, then why wouldn't I? Authors are always going to work within the rules of distributors. It also make it more likely I will get paid via KU because the reader has to read 10 percent, and 10 percent of 5000 words is a lot less than 10 percent of 100,000! If it's inconvenient for readers, then it's Amazon that are doing that, not me. It did also make me think of Wattpad, which chops up your book into chapter-sized bites for downloading. I've yet to hear anyone on Wattpad complain about that. The difference is that Wattpad won't pay me a penny, whereas KU will!


Don't worry, my aim wasn't to criticize you. Amazon puts the system in place and if the system rewards smaller books, you can't really blame any author for going along. I'm personally not worried since I've been going for low price / high volume from the beginning. 1 $ per borrow would hurt (assuming KU is a success), but I could make it work. I'm more worried about the big picture. Chopped up books, mini book flood, ... not so sure if that's a good future. But if it happens, it's Amazon's doing.

I'll keep hunting for that con. Maybe I (we) overlooked something.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Has insider knowledge/knows basic math. Tomato, tomahto.


----------



## Rykymus

*"author will earn their full ebook royalty rate based on the average sale price of their book for the given month"*

That's what should be of concern. Does that mean the rate is based on the sale price? (As in 70% vs 35%) or does it mean we'll get, for example, 70% of $2.99, per usual? It isn't exactly clear.


----------



## books_mb

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> When I was newer at this stuff, I ate all that rhetoric up. I was always posting and ranting and saying "it's not fair!" At the end of the day it's about just a few things. Write a good story, get it into the hands of as many readers as you can, and repeat. It takes time to be in the big leagues and in many professions, there isn't even a way in from the bottom for someone who just wakes up one day and decides they want to try. Amazon has already democratized the process of publishing and book sales so much, and we still get mad at them because they want to make money doing so. Well, don't we all?


They could give Stephen King ten golden bathtubs for every sale for all I care. Stephen King's bank account (or bathroom) is not my priority. In the end what counts is that indies get a fair royalty rate. This might be a problem with KU (price-dependent royalty rate), but let's see how it plays out.


----------



## ricola

Rykymus said:


> *"author will earn their full ebook royalty rate based on the average sale price of their book for the given month"*
> 
> That's what should be of concern. Does that mean the rate is based on the sale price? (As in 70% vs 35%) or does it mean we'll get, for example, 70% of $2.99, per usual? It isn't exactly clear.


That's only for Amazon-published writers and those with special contracts. Not for indies.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

Rykymus said:


> *"author will earn their full ebook royalty rate based on the average sale price of their book for the given month"*
> 
> That's what should be of concern. Does that mean the rate is based on the sale price? (As in 70% vs 35%) or does it mean we'll get, for example, 70% of $2.99, per usual? It isn't exactly clear.


I believe all your books are self-published right? So you will be paid on % of KOLL. It's only the traditional published authors (including Amazon imprints) that get paid based on sales price.


----------



## X. Aratare

Rykymus said:


> *"author will earn their full ebook royalty rate based on the average sale price of their book for the given month"*
> 
> That's what should be of concern. Does that mean the rate is based on the sale price? (As in 70% vs 35%) or does it mean we'll get, for example, 70% of $2.99, per usual? It isn't exactly clear.


VM already clarified this partially, but you, as an indie, will get a portion of the pot, which stands at $2M this month. Basically what you get will be determined by the size of the pot (which Amazon determines) divided by how many books are read beyond 10%. It is NOT based on your list price at all.

So you could get more than you would under your list price depending on the size of the pot and number of reads or you could get LESS. It's all unsure.


----------



## Vaalingrade

No seriously check this out:

It's been confirmed that the Hunger Games at least gets their proper royalty on a borrow/KU open.

Let's pretend the Hunger Games was actually reasonably priced at 8.99 and got the same 70% indies currently do. That's 6.18 cents after the 'deliver fee'. I know this because I have a book at that price.

It only takes two borrows/opens to max and then exceed the $10/month price and there are three of those books, so on the Hunger Games, Amazon loses... ((6.18 x 2)x3 - 9.99 = 27.09 dollars per month on the series for every fan.

Let's say a mere .1% of the projected current Prime user base switches to KU and want to read the Hunger Games Trilogy one month. That's 1000 people costing Amazon $27,090 a month even accounting for their KU subscription payments.

In order to break even on the Hunger Games trilogy, the need to 2709 people to subscribe... and read _nothing_.

As said before, there's not special push to sell other products through the KU system. It apparently isn't a loss-leader or a content draw. So where is that money going to come from?

Well, what if we attract readers who read indie books... and then just pay the indies a tiny, tiny amount then use the profits from that to pay for the Hunger Games books? And we'll tell the indies that we did this because we have faith in how awesome they are because they keep saying they're awesome to themselves anyway. God bless confirmation bias!


----------



## 75845

I've been busy getting a book ready for coming off pre-order but skimmed the merged thread so hopefully I'm not repeating what's been said earlier.

It seems to me that Scribd have forced Amazon's hand. One of the main benefit of Select to the successful is KOLL, but Scribd offers a way to be earning good library income without being exclusive, so Amazon had to set up KU. 

The problem is that while KU's initial offering is dominated by indies via KOLL, Scribd has been very trad focused (but now allowing indies in via aggregators). As a reader I know which I would prefer and as a Scribd user I rarely read any indie stuff. Add to that if you can recruit one non-member to take a trial each month you get Scribd for free.

The problem for Amazon is that they tried and failed to get big publishers into KOLL in its early days so will they be more successful now. Obviously it does not harm the publishers to be on as many services as possible but they might find the environment more to their liking at Scribd and Oyster.

Unless you price books above $3.99 you are not really earning any more from Scribd's 60% than the Select fund. I had a borrow on a $4.99 book at Scribd and that fetched me $2.99 - originally that book was scheduled to go in Select where a borrow would have fetched about $2.10.

Like a lot of people I will be trying Select to see how this works but staying wide on other things, which brings me back to where I started. Subscription services were in danger of ruining Select's biggest encouragement to stay in it long term (KOLL) so Amazon had to act.


----------



## Guest

my permafree here is absolutely dead, and so is my US sales. Coincidence? I think not.


----------



## Guest

I've read through all the posts and see that some indies are scared about what will happen to their income.

BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES!!!!

Amazon gave us some of the cake that the big publishers, bookstores and million selling writers were dividing among themselves by creating KDP for indies and giving us the chance to write and sell our books on Amazon.com. Guys, Amazon is now creating a new library system so that the more than a hundred million library visitors who never get to read our books because the libraries and the big publishers and the million selling writers are keeping us out of the libraries get a chance to read our books. Amazon is going after the 10 billion a year library industry and I support them for selfish reasons.

NONE OF OUR BOOKS ARE ALLOWED IN LIBRARIES.

That's where the readers are! That's where the money is!!! What gives them the right to discriminate against us? I have readers. They like my books better than Stephen King's and James Patterson's books. Why are they sharing the 10 billion dollar library budget and I have to get day jobs to make ends meet?

Read this webpage (America Library Association) and tell me if getting these library readers onto Kindle Unlimited will double or triple your income or not: http://www.ala.org/tools/libfactsheets/alalibraryfactsheet06

There were 171,121,000 registered borrowers

There were 1.53 billion in-person visits to public libraries, the equivalent to more than 4.2 million visits each day (not including virtual visits).

Total visits to libraries 1,525,316,000 5.1 visits per capita

Total library circulation	2,440,743,000 8.1 items per capita

Circulation of children's materials 841,208,000 34.5% of total circulation

It's a 10 billion dollar industry that is not allowing any indie writers access to their customers. Why not? Why are millions going to Stephen King and James Patterson and not to us? My books are just as good as theirs! Amazon is building a new library system and if we can move tens of millions of "old library" readers to Kindle Unlimited, we will be able to double, triple our money! I need this to happen so I can make a living as a writer. I want this!!

BOOM TIMES!!!

We must make this Kindle Unlimited thing works. For our sake as indie writers. Most of us indie writers here on KBoards will probably be able to make a living as writers if we can get these 170 million "old library" readers into Kindle Unlimited.

BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES!!!


----------



## Jash

drno said:


> BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES!!!


I don't actually agree with your assessment but have to give you props for actually using real numbers rather than just making them up which seems to be the fashion these days!


----------



## Vaalingrade

KU is not a library, no matter how many times you say it.


----------



## Jnassise

Drno - I dont pay $10/month for my library card.  Libraries and KU are not equivalent. Your argument falls apart after that.


----------



## Jan Strnad

Quiss said:


> My (selfishly petty) hope:
> 
> KU will be swamped by 99-centers, novellas, porn rags, serials that may or may not be serials, get-rich-quick scammers, all hoping for a disproportional share of the fund.
> Bezos worshipers, contract-bound authors, and vanity publishers will keep their books in KU to get 30 cents. Only Stephen King and Rowling sells.
> Authors of longer titles will go "pffft, bite me" and stay out of Select
> Readers will be disgusted by the selection and drop their subscription to go in search of full-length books
> The end.


You may be halfway-kidding, but this is exactly the scenario with the program as structured.

The KU program is basic cable with porn. For a lot of people, that's more than enough!

But some people are still going to want premium content. Amazon can't afford to buy all of the premium content, so it will buy just enough to motivate people to keep their KU subscriptions alive. Just as NetFlix, Hulu Plus, Amazon and other streaming providers compete for premium content... just as no one has it all... just as no one can afford to have it all and keep the price of their service attractive... no book subscription service can afford to give a sweetheart deal to every A-list author.

Amazon's business model guarantees a lowering of quality overall. Yes, an indie book might be good, but the reader will have to download eighteen "books" as a serial to get it, because publishing a complete, long book in KU doesn't make economic sense to authors. It's not going to be worth the time to spend months writing and crafting an excellent product when quantity becomes the only game in town.

Basically, Amazon is creating a ghetto with a few high-roller tenants to give the neighborhood class.

I like the idea of writing shorter works for KU for the sole purpose of leading people to your full-length books. Without the promo that comes with an Amazon publishing contract, though, I can't see making full-length works exclusive to Amazon. Simply being one of a million books available for "free" isn't the same as being prominent and discoverable.

I think of the question posted earlier about (pardon my paraphrasing), "What if someone sees your horror book next to Stephen King's--which would they choose?" That scenario is a w-t dream. Nobody is going to see your horror novel next to Stephen King's! (I tried, publishing my horror novel _Risen_ under the pseudonym "J. Knight" so it would be on store shelves between Stephen King and Dean Koontz--didn't work!) People are going to see Stephen King's book and never even know that your horror novel exists without discoverability.

Discoverability is what places like Bookbub give us now. If Bookbub doesn't approve you, there are still other outlets: ENT, POI, Fussy Librarian, BookSends, etc. etc. KU doesn't do anything to improve your discoverability, which means you are still sitting under a bush by the side of the road wrapped in a cloak of invisibility while Stephen King is dancing naked in the middle of the road shooting fireworks out his a--.

The more I think about KU, the more I think of the phrase from the movie _War Games_: The only way to win, is not to play.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

Bluehorseshoe said:


> my permafree here is absolutely dead, and so is my US sales. Coincidence? I think not.


Sales are definitely down...I'm sure people are busy stocking up on unlimited titles. A quick look shows a book that usually sells 75 - 110 copies a day is at 30 for today. My perma-free books are down - but the daily sales aren't significant enough to really say. Usually 8 - 25 units a day and is at 7 right now.


----------



## Jan Strnad

drno said:


> I've read through all the posts and see that some indies are scared about what will happen to their income.
> 
> BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES!!!!
> 
> Amazon gave us some of the cake that the big publishers, bookstores and million selling writers were dividing among themselves by creating KDP for indies and giving us the chance to write and sell our books on Amazon.com. Guys, Amazon is now creating a new library system so that the more than a hundred million library visitors who never get to read our books because the libraries and the big publishers and the million selling writers are keeping us out of the libraries get a chance to read our books. Amazon is going after the 10 billion a year library industry and I support them for selfish reasons.
> 
> NONE OF OUR BOOKS ARE ALLOWED IN LIBRARIES.
> 
> That's where the readers are! That's where the money is!!! What gives them the right to discriminate against us? I have readers. They like my books better than Stephen King's and James Patterson's books. Why are they sharing the 10 billion dollar library budget and I have to get day jobs to make ends meet?
> 
> Read this webpage (America Library Association) and tell me if getting these library readers onto Kindle Unlimited will double or triple your income or not: http://www.ala.org/tools/libfactsheets/alalibraryfactsheet06
> 
> There were 171,121,000 registered borrowers
> 
> There were 1.53 billion in-person visits to public libraries, the equivalent to more than 4.2 million visits each day (not including virtual visits).
> 
> Total visits to libraries 1,525,316,000 5.1 visits per capita
> 
> Total library circulation	2,440,743,000 8.1 items per capita
> 
> Circulation of children's materials 841,208,000 34.5% of total circulation
> 
> It's a 10 billion dollar industry that is not allowing any indie writers access to their customers. Why not? Why are millions going to Stephen King and James Patterson and not to us? My books are just as good as theirs! Amazon is building a new library system and if we can move tens of millions of "old library" readers to Kindle Unlimited, we will be able to double, triple our money! I need this to happen so I can make a living as a writer. I want this!!
> 
> BOOM TIMES!!!
> 
> We must make this Kindle Unlimited thing works. For our sake as indie writers. Most of us indie writers here on KBoards will probably be able to make a living as writers if we can get these 170 million "old library" readers into Kindle Unlimited.
> 
> BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES!!!


Pardon my mental density, but can you explain please how 170 million people reading my books for free puts a nickel in my pocket?


----------



## 3rotic

Jan Strnad said:


> Pardon my mental density, but can you explain please how 170 million people reading my books for free puts a nickel in my pocket?


Street cred?


----------



## Jash

Jan Strnad said:


> I like the idea of writing shorter works for KU for the sole purpose of leading people to your full-length books. Without the promo that comes with an Amazon publishing contract, though, I can't see making full-length works exclusive to Amazon. Simply being one of a million books available for "free" isn't the same as being prominent and discoverable.


You're talking as if these books are exclusive to KU, not Amazon in general. People can and will still buy these books. Borrows and sales both contribute to the same pool of discoverability. It isn't either/or. I already use Amazon exclusively on some titles. It's a financial decision that works for me and I don't expect it to work for everyone. I'm not about to cut a novel into twenty chapters to try and get a slightly bigger slice of the Select pie at the risk of damaging my sales in the store proper which I assume are going to continue representing the bulk of my sales.


----------



## Silly Writer

Wonder why no one is talking about BookBub?

Let's say I had an ad booked for next week. I've had a BookBub before (May) and they link their email to my Amazon buy page, but tomorrow, or next week...BookBub gets NADA, because the buyer sees my book is now in KU, so they'll just get it from there. If WE don't get paid until 10% is read, I'm sure BookBub gets NOTHING for driving traffic to KU. So how long before they, and ENT, POI, BookSends, etc., realize this and stop accepting anyone who's in Select?

Ummm, if you had an ad booked and you're now in KU Purgatory, awaiting answers... You might want to check with BB or whomever to see if they're still running your book. *Possibly* nothing in it for them. So why would they?


----------



## Guest

michael sullivan, 

Yes, my ratios are just about the same. maybe once the shiny coat of paint wears off things will get back to normal... i hae been looking in my keywords and have actually seen a move out of select on certain titles. I know i just made sure that all mine were pulled. for now i will wait and see how it plays out.


----------



## Philip Gibson

Oh, dear. I haven't read the entire thread and all this is most puzzling to this bear of little brain.

Puzzling to me also has been the number of times when my books have been priced at $0.99 and readers have used their single Prime option to 'borrow' them resulting in me receiving $2.10 for my $0.99 book. That has happened many times.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding stuff, but does this new program mean that authors with lots of very short works (like<40 pages) priced at $0.99, will be receiving around $2 for each copy borrowed?

If so, it seems most odd and financially unsustainable for Amazon. It would seem more logical that Amazon would have some kind of sliding scale to determine how much authors get for each borrow based on list price/book length, etc.


Philip


----------



## Sarah M

My theory on what's going to happen:

1. A huge number of people are going to rush for the announcement and free trial.  Paid sales across the whole platform are going to drop. 

2. After the 30 days are up, a large portion of those who signed up will cancel their subscription because they either like getting something for free or they realize they're never going to use the service. Paid sales will continue to be lower because of the summer/start of school/Amazon is EVIL and being mean to Hatchette publicity, etc. 

3. By 60 days, the number of subscribers will be a good snapshot of the average numbers of subscribers. The number of borrows will begin to stabilize as well as the drop in sales. Sales may actually pick up. 

4. At 90 days there may be an uptick because I think that's when Amazon does their Prime pushing for the Christmas season but it won't be anything like the initial rollout. Sales won't be affected but borrows may increase. This would be a good time to assess the worth of the program for self-publishers and if it's something authors should continue participating. Why? Because I'm betting this also around the time negotiations with Hatchette and S&S will be finalized and they will include more trad publishing titles. 

And then I don't know what's going to happen. My armchair speculation goes only so far.


----------



## Victorine

L.L. Akers said:


> Wonder why no one is talking about BookBub?
> 
> Let's say I had an ad booked for next week. I've had a BookBub before (May) and they link their email to my Amazon buy page, but tomorrow, or next week...BookBub gets NADA, because the buyer sees my book is now in KU, so they'll just get it from there. If WE don't get paid until 10% is read, I'm sure BookBub gets NOTHING for driving traffic to KU. So how long before they, and ENT, POI, BookSends, etc., realize this and stop accepting anyone who's in Select?
> 
> Ummm, if you had an ad booked and you're now in KU Purgatory, awaiting answers... You might want to check with BB or whomever to see if they're still running your book. *Possibly* nothing in it for them. So why would they?


Isn't one of the qualifications for Bookbub to be on more than one sales channel? I think they already discourage Select.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Jan Strnad said:


> model guarantees a lowering of quality overall. Yes, an indie book might be good, but the reader will have to download eighteen "books" as a serial to get it, because publishing a complete, long book in KU doesn't make economic sense to authors. It's not going to be worth the time to spend months writing and crafting an excellent product when quantity becomes the only game in town.


I'm writing a series and putting as much effort I can into making it an excellent product. I'll be shooting for a monthly release with a hope for a gradual ramp-up to 2x a month as long as I can maintain the quality to my liking. Quantity with quality can be achieved. I reject your idea that writers like me are sacrificing quality for speed.



> Discoverability is what places like Bookbub give us now. If Bookbub doesn't approve you, there are still other outlets: ENT, POI, Fussy Librarian, BookSends, etc. etc. KU doesn't do anything to improve your discoverability, which means you are still sitting under a bush by the side of the road wrapped in a cloak of invisibility while Stephen King is dancing naked in the middle of the road shooting fireworks out his a--.


Boobbub is useless for writers starting out, who either don't have the reviews needed or can afford the costs of a Bookbub ad. KU would appear to be a means to get your work in front of the eyes of subscribers, and if they download your work and read a sample's worth of it, you get paid. Not a lot, but more than if the work was permafree. I expect Amazon will promote KU with at least a monthly newsletter much as they already do Kindle Worlds and the KDP program. And if they don't, someone will find a way to promote KU.

As a writer planning to self-publish works starting this fall, I'm seeing no reason not to give KU a try. At worst, it costs 3 months of exclusivity for whatever titles I put into it.


----------



## Silly Writer

Philip Gibson said:


> Oh, dear. I haven't read the entire thread and all this is most puzzling to this bear of little brain.
> 
> Puzzling to me also has been the number of times when my books have been priced at $0.99 and readers have used their single Prime option to 'borrow' them resulting in me receiving $2.10 for my $0.99 book. That has happened many times.
> 
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding stuff, but does this new program mean that authors with lots of very short works (like<40 pages) priced at $0.99, will be receiving around $2 for each copy borrowed?
> 
> If so, it seems most odd. It would seem more logical that Amazon would have some kind of sliding scale to determine how much authors get for each borrow based on list price/book length, etc.
> 
> Philip


Phillip,
The TL/DNR version for you: If all you have are .99 shorts and you're in Select, you just hit the jackpot IF they keep the rate around the typical KOLL rate of $2. The big unknown is how could they do that and still make money (Amazon). The answer is they can't. So we're all waiting for the other shoe to drop. (i.e. the pay out to settle down around .50-$1.00 USD). No one knows. It's all speculation at this point.
Welcome to The Twilight Zone, where nothing is as it seems.


----------



## Silly Writer

Victorine said:


> Isn't one of the qualifications for Bookbub to be on more than one sales channel? I think they already discourage Select.


No. They ran my book in May. I'm in Select.


----------



## Jim Johnson

L.L. Akers said:


> The big unknown is how could they do that and still make money (Amazon). The answer is they can't. So we're all waiting for the other shoe to drop. (i.e. the pay out to settle down around .50-$1.00 USD). No one knows.


Could you go into more detail on this thinking? This is Amazon we're talking about; a multibillion dollar corporation. For at least the last year (I don't remember how long--I've only been looking the last year or so) they've placed approx. $1M a month into the KDP Select money pool for borrows. For this month, they increased the fund to $2M. That's like a miniscule fraction of their monthly in-flow. No matter how many subscribers they get or don't get to KU, it'll be chicken scratch compared to the income they're getting off all the other products they sell. Affording to contribute to the lending pool is a non-issue for them, as near as I can guess.

All speculation, of course.


----------



## Philip Gibson

The 'having to have read 10% of the book before authors get paid' part of the deal is interesting.

Won't this be the first time that we can get an accurate idea of how many/what percentage of readers who have the book on their TBR list actually start reading after they get the book?


Philip


----------



## Geoff Jones

What happens if your book is downloaded, you leave KDP Select, and then months later, the reader finally gets around to reading the first 10%. Do you still get paid?

(Apologies if this has already been discussed.)


----------



## Jim Johnson

Geoff Jones said:


> What happens if your book is downloaded, you leave KDP Select, and then months later, the reader finally gets around to reading the first 10%. Do you still get paid?
> 
> (Apologies if this has already been discussed.)


It's covered in the help topics.



> It may take months for a customer to read more than 10% your book, but no matter how long it takes, you'll still be paid once it happens. This is true even if your KDP Select enrollment period has lapsed, and you chose not to re-enroll.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Philip Gibson said:


> The 'having to have read 10% of the book before authors get paid' part of the deal is interesting.
> 
> Won't this be the first time that we can get an accurate idea of how many/what percentage of readers who have the book on their TBR list actually start reading after they get the book?


Sounds like there'll be some metrics. Not sure how useful.



> Reporting
> You'll see the total number of times customers have read more than 10% of your book in Kindle Unlimited, or downloaded your book for the first time from the Kindle Owners' Lending Library, listed by marketplace. You'll only see the first time a Kindle Unlimited customer reads past 10%, or a KOLL customer downloads your book. There won't be separate listings for each type.


----------



## 75845

Jim Johnson said:


> For this month, they increased the fund to $2M.


Amazon has a massive turnover but very little profit. It they spent $25M next year on the fund it might be 10% of their profits going by what they made in the last financial year. Bezos is under huge pressure from investors to stop empire building and begin profit taking.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Mercia McMahon said:


> Amazon has a massive turnover but very little profit. It they spent $25M next year on the fund it might be 10% of their profits going by what they made in the last financial year. Bezos is under huge pressure from investors to stop empire building and begin profit taking.


People seem to think they have infinite money just because the company is _worth_ billions. I tihnk it's because when a person is 'worth' X, that means they generally have x. While a company's worth is how much another company would have to pay to buy them.


----------



## dmac

One thing to keep in mind:

The book (product) still has to sale itself to the consumer. Even if reading now no longer costs them as much as it once did, it still requires the investment of time, and not many people have time to waste on books with lousy covers, lousy blurbs, and lousy sample chapters.

If your book did not sell before KU, it is highly doubtful it will sell now with KU. What makes the reader skip your book without even giving it a second thought before KU, will still make them skip your book without a second thought now with KU.

The cream, I believe, will still rise to the top even with this buffet style Brave New World.


----------



## Rykymus

I doesn't matter if cream rises to the top, if the producer of that cream ain't getting paid squat.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Rykymus said:


> I doesn't matter if cream rises to the top, if the producer of that cream ain't getting paid squat.


Haha, tell that to the folks using permafree as a tactic.


----------



## Rykymus

Although I don't usually pay much heed to these panic-style threads, this one has me scratching my head. 

I make around $3k/month on borrows, which represents about 10% of my monthly sales income. (On average, I make $2.19 per borrow.) If gobs of readers sign up for KU and I suddenly see a drop in sales, AND the amount I get paid for KU reads is significantly less, that's a big hit. I can afford the hit, but it hurts nonetheless. More importantly, the idea that Amazon can yank my world around at will does not sit well. I have never been a fan of subscription based services, especially when I never signed up to be a vendor for such a service.

So I have to wonder. At some point in time, I expected to pull everything out of Select and start distributing through the other channels. With the opportunity to yank everything out immediately available for a limited time, perhaps I should avail myself of it and watch from the sidelines rather than risk sales. After all, I use none of the marketing gimmes that Select offers, as none of them (including the Kindle Daily Deal, incidentally) do any more for my sales than my mailing list does for a new release. If I pull them out now, I can always put them back later when more details are known about KU.

Or, I could leave book 1 in and pull the other 10 in the series.

What to do. What to do.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Still not sure what's going to happen long term but I will add my name to the list of people whose sales are down 60-75% for the day (they have a normal ebb and flow over the course of each week, hence the wide range there, but there is no question that it's out of the norm. I haven't sold so few books on Amazon since my first week self-publishing).


----------



## Σ

Rykymus said:


> [...]
> 
> What to do. What to do.


I'd do which ever has the highest expected value. Kinda hard to calculate, but if you take as a lower bound .50 per borrow over a period of 90 days, you can get a rough idea. It would be around 1/4 your income for that 90 day period, vs no real upper bound. No one knows the probabilities though.

This is ignoring the bestseller effect (indies not selling due to everyone with a free trial reading expensive bestsellers instead), but that's gonna happen in either case


----------



## adanlerma

Alondo said:


> Thanks for your kind and understanding reply. I will google oyster and scribd and see if they will let me put my work there.
> 
> Splitting one of my books into 26 parts was a bit of a joke, but seriously, I am in the middle of writing a new book now, so it occurred to me that I could effectively get "paid as I work" by releasing content on Select/Kindle Unlimited as it's written in say, 5000-word installments, and then depending on how it did, I could always remove them from Select at a later date and then release the complete book across all platforms.
> 
> Can you see any cons with that plan?


Your welcome Alondo. If you want to try Scribd & Oyster you need to go through a distributor, like Smashwords or D2D ( Draft2Digital ). Talk to both, see which you like.

Re your plan - many times I wish I had more of one  it has worked for a lot of writers over time, like Charles Dickens etc; as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, each serial installment needs an arc, and probably a hook for the next book. Sure combine it all later, why not?


----------



## MJWare

Rykymus said:


> I make around $3k/month on borrows, which represents about 10% of my monthly sales income.


Wowzer!

I agree that if the pay per read falls (in the long run), we'll all be loosing out. In order for them to get away with doing that they'd have to be the only game in town.

For now, I have a book that sells well on Amazon, but only sells 5-15 copies everywhere else--I'm probably going to enroll it.


----------



## JETaylor

When I was in Select my borrows were minimal. I decided to put Fallen in since it's a prequel to my Games Trilogy. 

Amazon is still my money making venue - but I'm starting to see some traction on iTunes and B&N - which I really don't want to lose that momentum. But I'll make some determination on how this does.  I have another short story that's next on my to do list, so maybe I'll try that in Select once I get that out in the fall.


----------



## Belle89

You know I got an email this morning from Amazon saying I needed to remove my book from Ibooks. I was confused until I went on my page and noticed the KindleUnlimited logo. Now I was thinking the exposure would be worth getting paid pennies but then I realized my book would be available to just as many people on Ibooks. So I guess I'll just let them take my book out the program.

I don't even know how they expected me to react to this when no one can explain how it would benefit me.


----------



## Philip Gibson

Wonder if the people at Amazon who are implementing this program are following this thread.

Somebody knows.

Philip


----------



## 75814

I was experimenting with Select and have already scheduled ads and promotions for the end of the month. If not for that, I would remove my stuff from Select immediately. I hope this KU thing crashes and burns.


----------



## wtvr

Philip Gibson said:


> Wonder if the people at Amazon who are implementing this program are following this thread.
> 
> Somebody knows.


Oh yeah, somebody's probably following it, and they're probably not really super impressed with the combined business acumen that's being displayed here.

There have been a few voices of reason on here, but only a few. I'm just going to do my thing, start a new series strategically designed to take advantage of the opening market, and wait and see what happens. They've got 15 years of market research, global reach, and infinitely deep pockets to do whatever the hell they damn well please. Please and thank you, pass the pudding.


----------



## Jim Johnson

LisaGloria said:


> Oh yeah, somebody's probably following it, and they're probably not really super impressed with the combined business acumen that's being displayed here.
> 
> There have been a few voices of reason on here, but only a few. I'm just going to do my thing, start a new series strategically designed to take advantage of the opening market, and wait and see what happens. They've got 15 years of market research, global reach, and infinitely deep pockets to do whatever the hell they d*mn well please. Please and thank you, pass the pudding.


----------



## A past poster

Philip Gibson said:


> Wonder if the people at Amazon who are implementing this program are following this thread.
> 
> Philip


Of course they are.


----------



## Rykymus

Tell you one thing...My KDP rep is conveniently out of the office for a few days.


----------



## Belle89

I just want a solid answer in terms of royalties so I can weigh my options and make the right decision. I don't think that's unreasonable.


----------



## A past poster

Jan Strnad said:


> The more I think about KU, the more I think of the phrase from the movie _War Games_: The only way to win, is not to play.


This


----------



## Jim Johnson

Belle89 said:


> I just want a solid answer in terms of royalties so I can weigh my options and make the right decision. I don't think that's unreasonable.


I don't think anyone will know until the first month of KU is complete and Amazon starts submitting payments. We know the amount of the pool, but no idea how many participants and borrows will split the pool.


----------



## Mike_Author

MJAWare said:


> Wowzer!
> 
> I agree that if the pay per read falls (in the long run), we'll all be loosing out. In order for them to get away with doing that they'd have to be the only game in town.
> 
> For now, I have a book that sells well on Amazon, but only sells 5-15 copies everywhere else--I'm probably going to enroll it.


$30k per month Are you Stephen King (j/k)


----------



## Mike_Author

BTW, today has been my worst day for sales in about 6 months.  I really, really hope that this is a coincidence and not a harbinger of things to come...


----------



## Belle89

Jim Johnson said:


> I don't think anyone will know until the first month of KU is complete and Amazon starts submitting payments. We know the amount of the pool, but no idea how many participants and borrows will split the pool.


Well I'll wait and then make a choice. I just don't want to pull my book from other places and then regret it. This is making me a bit nervous honestly LOL.


----------



## dianasg

Wow. I've read most of this thread, and agree with Elizabeth Anne West, ElHawk, and others who have said: the sky is not falling. 

One point: Someone mentioned upthread that KU will be most detrimental to authors writing high-volume genres like romance, YA, and NA. 

I just want to point out that these authors don't need or want to deal with Select. Romance readers at B&N, Apple, ARe, and others are generally pretty good to them -- and just as voracious. My guess is that newly released, quality romance is going to be hard to find in KU. At best, romance readers like myself will be able to get some good (old) backlist stuff, novellas, serials, and other teasers.

We might enjoy reading that stuff -- but we also will still buy the books we want, by authors who have delivered in the past. 

So pretty much like Netflix, which is mostly old/B movies, with some good stuff mixed in. I really think KU will be just another tool like free -- it's not going to destroy us all. And if you haven't been - and don't plan on - going ALL in with in select, then you're probably on the right track for long term success. 

It's just another strategy. So everyone lower your guns! Ready?? On the count of three...


----------



## Guest

mike, its not a coincidence, many many many people are in the same boat right now. myself included. buyers are being funneled elsewhere with this program. need to give them time to chomp through and come back home, or not.


----------



## Rykymus

And how are we going to know what we're being paid per KOLL borrow vs KU read? They're going to lump the payments into one report, not breaking them down individually.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Rykymus said:


> And how are we going to know what we're being paid per KOLL borrow vs KU read? They're going to lump the payments into one report, not breaking them down individually.


I've been thinking about that and where I'm getting hung up is on whether it matters if we know whether a reader is getting the borrow from KU vs KOLL. They're coming out of the same payment pool at the same royalty rate. Select members get one borrow a month; KU members get as many as they want. I don't know if authors knowing whether their royalties are coming from KOLL or KU really matters. I imagine it matters to Amazon so that they can evaluate the two programs, but for us on the end of the chain, does it matter whether the same $2 (or whatever) is coming from a KU borrow vs a KOLL borrow?


----------



## dmac

Rykymus said:


> I doesn't matter if cream rises to the top, if the producer of that cream ain't getting paid squat.


Good grief. It has not even been a full day yet. Put the gun down and step back slowly.


----------



## SB James

DianaGabriel said:


> Wow. I've read most of this thread, and agree with Elizabeth Anne West, ElHawk, and others who have said: the sky is not falling.
> 
> One point: Someone mentioned upthread that KU will be most detrimental to authors writing high-volume genres like romance, YA, and NA.
> 
> I just want to point out that these authors don't need or want to deal with Select. Romance readers at B&N, Apple, ARe, and others are generally pretty good to them -- and just as voracious. My guess is that newly released, quality romance is going to be hard to find in KU. At best, romance readers like myself will be able to get some good (old) backlist stuff, novellas, serials, and other teasers.
> 
> We might enjoy reading that stuff -- but we also will still buy the books we want, by authors who have delivered in the past.
> 
> So pretty much like Netflix, which is mostly old/B movies, with some good stuff mixed in. I really think KU will be just another tool like free -- it's not going to destroy us all. And if you haven't been - and don't plan on - going ALL in with in select, then you're probably on the right track for long term success.
> 
> It's just another strategy. So everyone lower your guns! Ready?? On the count of three...


My feelings are pretty similar to this.
I've got the one book still left in Select. I will see what happens with it this month. Still 95% sure I'm pulling it out of Select after mid August. I don't get a lot of borrows right now. That may change; I've got some small promotions for my Countdown deal for tomorrow and Sunday. Who knows; these people might borrow my book instead of buy it for 99 cents?


----------



## Vaalingrade

I wonder what it would do to the pool if I dropped a 78-part serial in there.

No one could argue that each part didn't have a full story either. If only I had the covers and lack of scruples...


----------



## Jim Johnson

Why do you feel you need a lack of scruples? Sounds like KU would be ideally suited for a series. Folks binge-watch TV series on netflix; no reason they can't binge-read series on KU.


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

Vaalingrade said:


> I wonder what it would do to the pool if I dropped a 78-part serial in there.
> 
> No one could argue that each part didn't have a full story either. If only I had the covers and lack of scruples...


I don't think scruples really plays into this at this point as there have been no restrictions placed on length or "completeness" (whatever that is). What makes releasing a book in 78 parts any less ethical than releasing it in 1? Isn't that just serialization? The bigger question is whether readers will bother to upload 78 parts (or 20, or 4) versus 1.


----------



## JRTomlin

I seem to be part of a minority. I am quite happy to see how it shakes out but initially is seems like a very good idea and I'm fine with the same payout as borrows. Hugh Howey tweeted today that he considered it a big game changer. I am a bit more cautious but think that it may well be a good thing for increasing our incomes--those of us who are in Select. And I recently put all my novels BACK in Select after having them out for a year and a half. I haven't regretted it a bit so far. If I ever do, I can take them out again.

The sky is not falling and this could be a good thing for some of us.


----------



## Rykymus

> I've been thinking about that and where I'm getting hung up is on whether it matters if we know whether a reader is getting the borrow from KU vs KOLL. They're coming out of the same payment pool at the same royalty rate. Select members get one borrow a month; KU members get as many as they want. I don't know if authors knowing whether their royalties are coming from KOLL or KU really matters. I imagine it matters to Amazon so that they can evaluate the two programs, but for us on the end of the chain, does it matter whether the same $2 (or whatever) is coming from a KU borrow vs a KOLL borrow?


It does matter. Those from KU represent people who would have had to pay the regular price. Also, how will we know if the addition of KU brings down the payment amounts of KOLL? To some extent, it must, at least when the membership of KU becomes large enough.

One other thing I've been considering. Perhaps Amazon's strategy is simply to pump money into the KU program, despite it being a losing strategy, in order to put the other subscription services out of business, after which they would close down KU.


----------



## JRTomlin

Rykymus said:


> It does matter. Those from KU represent people who would have had to pay the regular price. Also, how will we know if the addition of KU brings down the payment amounts of KOLL? To some extent, it must, at least when the membership of KU becomes large enough.
> 
> One other thing I've been considering. Perhaps Amazon's strategy is simply to pump money into the KU program, despite it being a losing strategy, in order to put the other subscription services out of business, after which they would close down KU.


I don't know that Amazon agrees that it is a 'losing strategy' since they aren't much given to using those. As far as it reducing the payout, that seems unlikely given that this was part of the announcement: 'For July we've added $800,000 to the fund, bringing the July fund amount to $2 million.'

When you consider that Unlimited will be out for less than half of July, I find it highly unlikely there will a drop in the payout.


----------



## Rykymus

Wow. I completely overlooked the fact that the $800k was only for half a month. Very good point.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Rykymus said:


> It does matter. Those from KU represent people who would have had to pay the regular price.


It's getting late, but this isn't making sense to me. Could you clarify? If you have a book in Select at 2.99, a reader coming at it from KOLL would have paid the same price if they paid for it rather than use their monthly borrow for it as someone coming from KU and borrowing it as part of their subscription, right? If they both wanted to own the book, they'd pay the Select price of 2.99.


----------



## dianasg

Jim Johnson said:


> I've been thinking about that and where I'm getting hung up is on whether it matters if we know whether a reader is getting the borrow from KU vs KOLL. They're coming out of the same payment pool at the same royalty rate. Select members get one borrow a month; KU members get as many as they want. I don't know if authors knowing whether their royalties are coming from KOLL or KU really matters. I imagine it matters to Amazon so that they can evaluate the two programs, but for us on the end of the chain, does it matter whether the same $2 (or whatever) is coming from a KU borrow vs a KOLL borrow?


In the "Let's Talk Kindle" thread, our friendly neighborhood cattle prodders Ann and Betsy have both mentioned that KU will be replacing the KOLL. 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,189926.msg2682750.html#msg2682750

Maybe one of them can point us to a link or something? If that's true, it won't matter much longer what kind of download you're getting paid for.


----------



## Σ

It's only for half the month, but there's also the fact that everyone gets a free month.


----------



## Σ

Jim Johnson said:


> It's getting late, but this isn't making sense to me. Could you clarify? If you have a book in Select at 2.99, a reader coming at it from KOLL would have paid the same price if they paid for it rather than use their monthly borrow for it as someone coming from KU and borrowing it as part of their subscription, right? If they both wanted to own the book, they'd pay the Select price of 2.99.


Do you have to read 10% for the author to get paid with KOLL books?


----------



## Jim Johnson

Interesting. I assumed it was two slightly different programs since you can subscribe to KU without a Prime membership. Maybe they'll fold KU into a Prime membership without upcharging Prime members another 9.99?  If they added KU to Prime for the current price, I'd probably pay for Prime. One reason I haven't bothered with Prime is because one borrow a month is too limited for my reading habit. Up to 10 at a time with unlimited monthly borrowing plus all of Prime's other stuff would be sweet.


----------



## Robert Bidinotto

I've noticed no fluctuation of sales on my two titles today.

I'm also looking at this change as an opportunity rather than a catastrophe. The only thing we can be sure of in this market is that disruptive changes are going to be the rule. We can lament them or rage against them, or we can look for ways to navigate the choppy waters.

When Amazon first launched Select, I recall a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Wouldn't "borrows" cannibalize sales? Wouldn't Amazon drain the funding pool over time, paying us pennies per borrow? On and on it went. Well, I'm about 6,000 borrows in, and the extra money has been very nice, thank you. 

One thing I know about the Zon: They have a lot more data than I do. I'm sure that they have run the models every which-way, checking out scenarios galore, building their incentive structure based on past habits of customers and authors. For those predisposed to think that they would wipe out all financial incentives to their suppliers -- us -- I don't buy it. I suspect that they'll continue to sweeten the pot to sustain at least a $2 per download-or-borrow average compensation. Pulling in a lot of new customers into KU, with its own host of new sales pages, can only enhance discoverability and visibility for participating titles. More eyeballs looking at my titles is not a bad thing.

I'm in Select, and I'm staying put. Idle speculation is useless; I'll watch to see how things shake out. In three years, I have yet to be hurt by Amazon, and I don't expect to be this time. If that happens, I can always adapt. That's what we indies do.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

DianaGabriel said:


> In the "Let's Talk Kindle" thread, our friendly neighborhood cattle prodders Ann and Betsy have both mentioned that KU will be replacing the KOLL.
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,189926.msg2682750.html#msg2682750
> 
> Maybe one of them can point us to a link or something? If that's true, it won't matter much longer what kind of download you're getting paid for.


If you read our posts in that thread, Ann and I are basing our opinion that KU is taking KOLL's place by the fact that when we go to the KOLL menu option on our Kindles, the books that show up are KU--and no KOLL books are currently available, at least none that we can find. If someone can point me to a book that is still available under KOLL, I'll eat my post. 

EDIT: It seems our reports of the demise of KOLL may have been premature.  See my later post in this thread.... Eating post now. *munches*

Betsy


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Jim Johnson said:


> Interesting. I assumed it was two slightly different programs since you can subscribe to KU without a Prime membership. Maybe they'll fold KU into a Prime membership without upcharging Prime members another 9.99? If they added KU to Prime for the current price, I'd probably pay for Prime. One reason I haven't bothered with Prime is because one borrow a month is too limited for my reading habit. Up to 10 at a time with unlimited monthly borrowing plus all of Prime's other stuff would be sweet.


I haven't seen any indication anywhere that Prime members won't have to pay for KU.

Betsy


----------



## Vaalingrade

Saul Tanpepper said:


> I don't think scruples really plays into this at this point as there have been no restrictions placed on length or "completeness" (whatever that is). What makes releasing a book in 78 parts any less ethical than releasing it in 1? Isn't that just serialization? The bigger question is whether readers will bother to upload 78 parts (or 20, or 4) versus 1.


 It's not even chopping up a book; all the Descendants books are actually 6 story bundles because I can't possibly make that many covers.

But no, the scruples issue is a matter of screwing over the readers who got me where I am before I started epublishng by locking them out. A big chunk of my readership is international where Kobo especially is predominant. I locked them out by accident when I first started, this time it would be a conscious betrayal of them.

Also, I have no intention to prop up Select or settle for 20 cents a read.


----------



## Rykymus

"20 cents a read." 

It's unsupported statements like this that cause authors to panic. Do you honestly believe for a moment that Amazon would expect authors to remain and receive only twenty cents per read? 

I get that you don't like Amazon. That's fine. I'm not too keen on them either. But you lose credibility when you make such comments.


----------



## WadeArnold

Bluehorseshoe said:


> mike, its not a coincidence, many many many people are in the same boat right now. myself included. buyers are being funneled elsewhere with this program. need to give them time to chomp through and come back home, or not.


I think the new program devalues and dilutes the books that are enrolled in it, its not much different than how so many free books listed got to the point that I'm sure many readers have 100 books to go through and will never get through them all, making the Select free offers now near useless for some than the first few months of the program.

BUT... On the Sky is Falling worries-- look, when Google started it's music subscription program, or when Spotify or Pandora came out, iTunes didn't suddenly change to a subscription service. They are still selling music at .99 a song and 12.99 an album or whatever. Some people don't WANT another $9.99 a month charge-- they have Netflix, they have Hulu +, they have Google Music whatever it's called, and they won't want another one. Some readers who read ALOT will jump on board-- but this doesn't mean they won't buy a book on their iPad either. Those readers might check their Kindle app and find that many books are not on the unlimited thing, and so they'll go get it from itunes. Write a series exclusively for this program if you're worried, and let readers find you. Put in every book that all your other books are out there.

I think the point is-- if you want to succeed as a writer, the main advice still stands. Write a lot and read a lot. Improve your craft. If you tell a good story, people will read your books no matter where you sell them.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Rykymus said:


> "20 cents a read."
> 
> It's unsupported statements like this that cause authors to panic. Do you honestly believe for a moment that Amazon would expect authors to remain and receive only twenty cents per read?


Yes. Unequivocally yes.

Not just because of economic necessity for the sheer scale they're trying this model at, but because there very much will be a ton of people who stay at 20 cents.

They'll stay out of misguided loyalty, they'll stay out of fear of leaving Select. They'll stay out of hope that one day they'll make it big and get one of the sweetheart deals. They'll stay for 'exposure' and the vague hope their paid sales will make up for it. They'll stay because charismatic folks will tell them that soon they'll be led to the mountaintop. They'll stay because someone will promise that it will get better. They'll stay because they're convinced there isn't a choice but to roll over and take it.

In this thread they've said they'll stay. And they will stay and more people will come in to fill the void left by the ones that leave. There's always more wide-eyed hopeful writers that think being paid anything for their work is magic.


----------



## dianasg

Betsy the Quilter said:


> If you read our posts in that thread, Ann and I are basing our opinion that KU is taking KOLL's place by the fact that when we go to the KOLL menu option on our Kindles, the books that show up are KU--and no KOLL books are currently available, at least none that we can find. If someone can point me to a book that is still available under KOLL, I'll eat my post.
> 
> Betsy


Hey, I'm glad to take your word for it!  After all, your opinion is based on a fact, which is something we could all use a little of right now!

eta: LOL I realized that sounded like a dig at KBers, but I meant that AMAZON could give us some facts about this stuff.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Vaalingrade said:


> *fondly pats B&N sales boom* Not for all of us.


You too? I thought I was the only one booming at Barnes!


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

WadeArnold said:


> I think the new program devalues and dilutes the books that are enrolled in it, its not much different than how so many free books listed got to the point that I'm sure many readers have 100 books to go through and will never get through them all, making the Select free offers now near useless for some than the first few months of the program.
> 
> BUT... On the Sky is Falling worries-- look, when Google started it's music subscription program, or when Spotify or Pandora came out, iTunes didn't suddenly change to a subscription service. They are still selling music at .99 a song and 12.99 an album or whatever. Some people don't WANT another $9.99 a month charge-- they have Netflix, they have Hulu +, they have Google Music whatever it's called, and they won't want another one. Some readers who read ALOT will jump on board-- but this doesn't mean they won't buy a book on their iPad either. Those readers might check their Kindle app and find that many books are not on the unlimited thing, and so they'll go get it from itunes. Write a series exclusively for this program if you're worried, and let readers find you. Put in every book that all your other books are out there.
> 
> I think the point is-- if you want to succeed as a writer, the main advice still stands. Write a lot and read a lot. Improve your craft. If you tell a good story, people will read your books no matter where you sell them.


Fun fact, this year marks the first year the digital downloads have FALLEN overall, in part because of Spotify. 
so.....


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

dmac said:


> Release the new titles out of Select for the first 1-3 month, and only add it to KU when the sales dry up. Repeat process. This, of course, would require a healthy mailing list, and enough fans who are willing to pay in addition to KU (if they are already signed up to KU).
> 
> Any thoughts?


And on an ongoing basis screw over all your possible readers who are invested in things other than Amazon and Kindle, while at the same time destroying all visibility and traction outside of Amazon.

No, just no...

I say write serials especially for KU without a season box set to suck up all the reads


----------



## 3rotic

Vaalingrade said:


> In this thread they've said they'll stay.


Please point out the post where someone said they'd stay for 20 cents per read.


----------



## S. Elliot Brandis

Mark E. Cooper said:


> And on an ongoing basis screw over all your possible readers who are invested in things other than Amazon and Kindle, while at the same time destroying all visibility and traction outside of Amazon.
> 
> No, just no...
> 
> I say write serials especially for KU without a season box set to suck up all the reads


Couldn't you release serials in Select/KU, then release the bundle outside of Select/KU?

Best of both worlds?


----------



## MJWare

JRTomlin said:


> I don't know that Amazon agrees that it is a 'losing strategy' since they aren't much given to using those.


Except they do, if you mean money losing strategies, like selling ebook under cost, or losing millions very year on prime memberships.



JRTomlin said:


> As far as it reducing the payout, that seems unlikely given that this was part of the announcement: 'For July we've added $800,000 to the fund, bringing the July fund amount to $2 million.'
> 
> When you consider that Unlimited will be out for less than half of July, I find it highly unlikely there will a drop in the payout.


My concern is a drop in payout over time, not right away. But maybe Amazon's done the math and they can keep payouts good forever. I'm just not sure about it.


----------



## bardeh

Robert Bidinotto said:


> One thing I know about the Zon: They have a lot more data than I do. I'm sure that they have run the models every which-way, checking out scenarios galore, building their incentive structure based on past habits of customers and authors. For those predisposed to think that they would wipe out all financial incentives to their suppliers -- us -- I don't buy it. I suspect that they'll continue to sweeten the pot to sustain at least a $2 per download-or-borrow average compensation. Pulling in a lot of new customers into KU, with its own host of new sales pages, can only enhance discoverability and visibility for participating titles. More eyeballs looking at my titles is not a bad thing.


For this introductory month (where everybody gets a free trial too) the pot is $2,000,000. For every download to get a full $2, that would only be 1 million books downloaded and read. I don't think that number is realistic at all, _especially_ when every single Amazon customer who wants it can sign up for a free trial. I expect the actual figure to be much lower than $2 per download.


----------



## MJWare

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Couldn't you release serials in Select/KU, then release the bundle outside of Select/KU?
> 
> Best of both worlds?


[email protected] it. You've discovered my secret plan to milk KU for all it's worth! Seriously, I think this could be a great idea; just tonight I started a 5k zombie short (for kids) that I though I'd use to test the waters.


----------



## 75814

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Couldn't you release serials in Select/KU, then release the bundle outside of Select/KU?
> 
> Best of both worlds?


I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that even if the content is bundled, that still counts as selling the content outside of Amazon, which is a violation of Select's terms. You could release the serial first in Select/KU and then once it's complete, remove it and offer the bundles everywhere. But you can't have the serial in Select and the bundle on other sites at the same time without violating Amazon's terms.


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

You can, however, offer the bundle on Amazon? Or not? My head is too full of Kindle Unlimited to look through the conditions.


----------



## 75814

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> You can, however, offer the bundle on Amazon? Or not? My head is too full of Kindle Unlimited to look through the conditions.


You mean offer the bundle on Amazon and the individual installments in other places? No, that's also a violation. When you agree to Select, you agree that the content is exclusive. What package you put the content in doesn't change the exclusivity.


----------



## MJWare

Perry Constantine said:


> You mean offer the bundle on Amazon and the individual installments in other places? No, that's also a violation. When you agree to Select, you agree that the content is exclusive. What package you put the content in doesn't change the exclusivity.


Amazon is strict on that. I released a graphic novel of my bestseller. I added images and changed some of the more intense scenes for younger kids. But the text was 90% the same and Amazon was all over me (one was in Select and the other wasn't).


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

Perry Constantine said:


> You mean offer the bundle on Amazon and the individual installments in other places? No, that's also a violation. When you agree to Select, you agree that the content is exclusive. What package you put the content in doesn't change the exclusivity.


But can you offer the individual parts through select, and then offer the bundle *only* on Amazon but not on select? No other channels involved, just Amazon and Amazon Select.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Couldn't you release serials in Select/KU, then release the bundle outside of Select/KU?
> 
> Best of both worlds?


Not allowed, nastygram incoming if you do that and possible account cancellation. The content of your box set, if in Select as individual titles, must be exclusive to Amazon. So no selling the box set or individual titles outside Amazon if any of them or part of them are on sale in Select.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Drew Smith said:


> You can't release Select titles outside of Amazon. But the terms of Select absolutely read that it's okay to release short stories in Select and then bundle them and release the bundle only on Amazon but not in Select. Best of both worlds.


Best of one world maybe, but what's the point? I was trying to get readers to buy or download the individual episodes on KU to steal err I mean grab up multiple $2 royalties from the KU pool, not get a single box set sale.


----------



## Alondo

Mark E. Cooper said:


> And on an ongoing basis screw over all your possible readers who are invested in things other than Amazon and Kindle, while at the same time destroying all visibility and traction outside of Amazon.
> 
> No, just no...
> 
> I say write serials especially for KU without a season box set to suck up all the reads


Whilst I have no clue what a "season box" is, I think that if you can provide new, episodic content on an ongoing basis, then this could be a godsend. I intend to release the first part of my current work in progress as an experiment in KOLL/KU at 99c. I can then upload new content every two weeks or so. Like I said before, the idea of getting paid as I work is attractive, and a nice incentive to keep writing. Why isn't everyone celebrating?


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Alondo said:


> Whilst I have no clue what a "season box" is, I think that if you can provide new, episodic content on an ongoing basis, then this could be a godsend. I intend to release the first part of my current work in progress as an experiment in KOLL/KU at 99c. I can then upload new content every two weeks or so. Like I said before, the idea of getting paid as I work is attractive, and a nice incentive to keep writing. Why isn't everyone celebrating?


Season box set... Is basically all this year's episodes bundled together and sold as a single title. 10 episodes seems popular.


----------



## Jash

Vaalingrade said:


> Also, I have no intention to prop up Select or settle for 20 cents a read.


You're just trolling at this point.


----------



## Alondo

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Season box set... Is basically all this year's episodes bundled together and sold as a single title. 10 episodes seems popular.


Thanks for that. Sounds like a good idea to me. As Dylan would say, "The times, they are a-changin'"!


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

3rotic said:


> Please point out the post where someone said they'd stay for 20 cents per read.


It's inferred by anyone who has not, in their first post, said "I have taken all of my titles out of Select immediately!" 

$2.19.....the average borrow payout (a few minor fluctuations) since February 2012. For those that insist on doing the math for KU, please add the following factor. "People with a desire to see the program succeed are watching this closely." The fact that $2 (roughly) has been the borrow amount for more than two years is not purely a statistical/mathematical phenomena.


----------



## books_mb

Robert Bidinotto said:


> One thing I know about the Zon: They have a lot more data than I do. I'm sure that they have run the models every which-way, checking out scenarios galore, building their incentive structure based on past habits of customers and authors. For those predisposed to think that they would wipe out all financial incentives to their suppliers -- us -- I don't buy it. I suspect that they'll continue to sweeten the pot to sustain at least a $2 per download-or-borrow average compensation. Pulling in a lot of new customers into KU, with its own host of new sales pages, can only enhance discoverability and visibility for participating titles. More eyeballs looking at my titles is not a bad thing.


Great post. It's an important point: Amazon has all the data. We have to work with "only 2 % read more than 10 books a month" and god knows how accurate and up-to-date that is, while Amazon knows the exact distribution and has had the time to go through numerical simulations. 10 $ a month is the result of a long and thorough analytical process.

I also agree on the other point. Amazon can't have indie authors fleeing to B & N, Nook, ... if they want to dominate the market. They have to keep the deal "somewhat" sweet. 2 $ per borrow might be a bit too optimistic in the long run, but 0.2 $ per borrow is certainly too pessimistic. Plus, let's see what happens to the volume. KU sounds like a great deal for readers, it could make the Kindle reader more popular and bring in a lot more customers. If they only give me 1 $ per borrow and the volume doubles ... so what?

Two problems I still see though: 1) there seems to be no con to individual authors chopping up their books and 2) equal share payment is unfair.


----------



## S. Elliot Brandis

If the borrow rate stays above $2, then this is potentially a great thing. 

What I don't like is the fact indies are forced into Select to take part. To me, this seems like series anti-competitive behaviour. I don't know what it's like in the states, but in Australia it would definitely raise eyebrows. It's clearly designed to kill competition and pressure vendors (us) into only supplying only one retailer. 

Not to mention that we effectively lose control of the ability to price our own books. And, apparently, they can offer our books in a new program, for an undefined price, without so much as asking our permission.

But, I s'pose it's working. I was planning to take Irradiated out of Select and publishing broadly. Now, I'm having second thoughts.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

DianaGabriel said:


> Hey, I'm glad to take your word for it!  After all, your opinion is based on a fact, which is something we could all use a little of right now!
> 
> eta: LOL I realized that sounded like a dig at KBers, but I meant that AMAZON could give us some facts about this stuff.


Yes, I haven't found anything from Amazon announcing KOLL is gone...it would be nice to let Prime borrowers know!

EDIT: It seems our reports of the demise of KOLL may have been premature.  See my later post in this thread....

Betsy


----------



## books_mb

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> It's clearly designed to kill competition and pressure vendors (us) into only supplying only one retailer.


And you see this as a problem? Granted, it's not the nicest thing to do, but sounds like normal capitalism to me. I'm sure B&N is trying hard to eliminate competitors as well.


----------



## Shelley K

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Yes, I haven't found anything from Amazon announcing KOLL is gone...it would be nice to let Prime borrowers know!
> 
> Betsy


It could be a problem with the rollout not letting the KOLL borrow option display. And it could be a sneaky tactic to get people to sign up for KU, since maybe some borrowers will just click the "read for free" button without noticing the difference? At least on the website it seems easy to do. I haven't checked with my Kindle.

It seems if they've actually removed KOLL, and that's one feature advertised as part of Prime, they would be obliged to explain this to Prime customers.


----------



## S. Elliot Brandis

books_mb said:


> And you see this as a problem? Granted, it's not the nicest thing to do, but sounds like normal capitalism to me. I'm sure B&N is trying hard to eliminate competitors as well.


Acts to kill of competition are often viewed dimly, as they're usually not in the best interests of the consumer (ultimately). I can't help but think of the anti-trust suit Apple and the traditional publishers got caught up in. This is as bad as that. Anti-competitive behaviour is different to every day capitalism. It runs contrary to market economics, which relies on competition to set prices.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

shelleyo1 said:


> It could be a problem with the rollout not letting the KOLL borrow option display. And it could be a sneaky tactic to get people to sign up for KU, since maybe some borrowers will just click the "read for free" button without noticing the difference? At least on the website it seems easy to do. I haven't checked with my Kindle.
> 
> It seems if they've actually removed KOLL, and that's one feature advertised as part of Prime, they would be obliged to explain this to Prime customers.


I agree...

As I already had a book checked out, I hadn't tried actually clicking on anything. Guess I should try that! 

Off to check...

OK, even though it says Kindle Unlimited, when one clicks on the "Read for Free" button on a Kindle, the same Kindle Owners' Lending Library message pops up. I returned my June book and checked out a new one. Unfortunately, I kind of picked the new one at Random. There goes the July read, LOL!

Off to eat my prior post. 

Betsy


----------



## S. Elliot Brandis

Can someone confirm that my book (Irradiated) is available for this? It's showing up as Lending: Not Enabled for me, but this may be because of my region. It's in Kindle Select at the moment.


----------



## 75845

books_mb said:


> And you see this as a problem? Granted, it's not the nicest thing to do, but sounds like normal capitalism to me. I'm sure B&N is trying hard to eliminate competitors as well.


Amazon shares a city with most of Microsoft's employees so they are only too aware of the cost of eliminating competition when the EU is looking over your shoulder.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Can someone confirm that my book (Irradiated) is available for this? It's showing up as Lending: Not Enabled for me, but this may be because of my region. It's in Kindle Select at the moment.


It is available.










Betsy

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## books_mb

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Acts to kill of competition are often viewed dimly, as they're usually not in the best interests of the consumer (ultimately). I can't help but think of the anti-trust suit Apple and the traditional publishers got caught up in. This is as bad as that. Anti-competitive behaviour is different to every day capitalism. It runs contrary to market economics, which relies on competition to set prices.


I absolutely understand these concerns, nobody outside Amazon wants a monopoly situation. But you can't blame Amazon for doing what comes natural to every company. If the company I work for didn't try to gain the upper hand in the market, I'd leave the company immediately. It's the job of the state(s) to set and enforce the limits.


----------



## Shelley K

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I agree...
> 
> As I already had a book checked out, I hadn't tried actually clicking on anything. Guess I should try that!
> 
> Off to check...
> 
> OK, even though it says Kindle Unlimited, when one clicks on the "Read for Free" button on a Kindle, the same Kindle Owners' Lending Library message pops up. I returned my June book and checked out a new one. Unfortunately, I kind of picked the new one at Random. There goes the July read, LOL!
> 
> Off to eat my prior post.
> 
> Betsy


That's good news, I guess. I didn't click, because I didn't want it to auto-enroll me in a KU trial or anything. They could have made it clearer for Prime user, though. It really does look like the button is to read it free by joining KU only.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

shelleyo1 said:


> That's good news, I guess. I didn't click, because I didn't want it to auto-enroll me in a KU trial or anything. They could have made it clearer for Prime user, though. It really does look like the button is to read it free by joining KU only.


Yeah, I didn't click yesterday because I wasn't ready to enroll. But I decided that if it was only KU, it would likely take me to the sign up page and gave it a whirl!



Betsy


----------



## S. Elliot Brandis

Betsy the Quilter said:


> It is available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Betsy
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks, Betsy.

I don't see that Kindle Unlimited bit when I view it on mine. I believe it's only available in some countries.


----------



## 90daysnovel

One of the risks of Kindle Unlimited has to be inadvertent piracy. A few people have gone through the numbers - take the $10, cut off Amazon's cut (30%-65%) and divide by number of reads to find out if Mr Average uses more or less than the number required to keep the royalty at an acceptable-to-authors rate.

But it's not going to be just Mr Average, is it? It'll be Mrs Average. Average Junior and Little Miss Average too. An entirely family could conceivably get all their reading for $9.99 a month. Think about how your household uses Netflix, tv subs etc - everyone watches (and that's fine for those services by the licence terms) but with Kindle we grant personal licences... but there isn't a facility on Amazon for someone to say "I have a three person household". Kindle devices don't support user switching (though a chrome style setup to login/ logout would be awesome). I doubt couples will get 2 subs - and I can't really blame them for that. It would feel like paying twice for the same thing.

If we figure families into it then the average reader grabbing two a month x a 4 person family could mean a lot of reading for $9.99. Is it technically against Amazon's terms? Absolutely. Will that stop it in practice? Definitely not. We're used to being able to lend/ borrow books. If that mentality extends to subscriptions then content providers will end up being underpaid compared to their previous remuneration.

The Kindle Unlimited terms don't even contemplate multi-user households (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_left_v4_sib?ie=UTF8&nodeId=201556940).

Of course, this happens with eBooks that are bought too, but the impact is less obvious.


----------



## D. Zollicoffer

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Thanks, Betsy.
> 
> I don't see that Kindle Unlimited bit when I view it on mine. I believe it's only available in some countries.


I think it's exclusive to North America.


----------



## S. W. Rondack

Jim Johnson said:


> Could you go into more detail on this thinking? This is Amazon we're talking about; a multibillion dollar corporation. For at least the last year (I don't remember how long--I've only been looking the last year or so) they've placed approx. $1M a month into the KDP Select money pool for borrows. For this month, they increased the fund to $2M. That's like a miniscule fraction of their monthly in-flow. No matter how many subscribers they get or don't get to KU, it'll be chicken scratch compared to the income they're getting off all the other products they sell. Affording to contribute to the lending pool is a non-issue for them, as near as I can guess.
> 
> All speculation, of course.


This.

I've worked at several ecommerce retailers (never Amazon) and departments don't exist as an island. They are likely not measuring KU success as a standalone product, but as a short-term way to increase overall profits. They sell a heck of a lot more than books, and they know everything there is to know about how their customers buy end-to-end on their site...I guarantee there was a a boatload of analysis that went into making the risk favorable when it comes to profitability.

Think of it this way...if you judged Wal-Mart on single product discounts they have, you'd be wondering how in the world they're profitable. It doesn't work in a vacuum like that.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Thanks, Betsy.
> 
> I don't see that Kindle Unlimited bit when I view it on mine. I believe it's only available in some countries.





D. Zollicoffer said:


> I think it's exclusive to North America.


It's only available in the United States right now:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_left_v4_sib?ie=UTF8&nodeId=201556940


> The program is currently only available to United States customers.


Betsy


----------



## NoahPorter

Maybe it's just me, but my earnings over the last 36 hours are way up over all my pen names. Sales are about the same, but KOLL/KU are way, way up. So far, I'm happy.


----------



## VEVO

Sylvia R. Frost said:


> Fun fact, this year marks the first year the digital downloads have FALLEN overall, in part because of Spotify.
> so.....


And streaming music revenue in the USA is about to hit $2,000,000,000 in revenue this year and will surpass download music revenue in about 12 months.

2012 RIAA #:

Streaming Revenue: $1.0328 billion USD (up 59%)
Singles Download Revenue: $1.623.6 billion USD (up 6.7%)
Album Download Revenue: $1.205 billion USD-----------------combined downloads at $2.829 billion
CD (physical): $2.4856 billion USD

2013 RIAA#:

Streaming Revenue: $1.439 billion USD (up 39.3%)
Singles Download Revenue: $1.569 billion USD (down 3.4%)
Album Download Revenue: $1.234 billion USD (up 2.4%) ----combined downloads is at $2.803 billion
CD (physical): $2.1235 (down 14.6%)

Soundscan 2014 first half report is out. Streaming is up 42% and download is down 13%

2014 prediction:

Streaming Revenue: $2.015 billion (up 40%)
Download combined: $2.450 billion


----------



## bardeh

Right, streaming revenue is huge. The cut that artists get is not. This is my worry with a service like Kindle Unlimited.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

The more I think about it, the more troubled I am by the fact that Amazon is treating self-published authors as second-class citizens.  Usually they are treated pretty much the same as traditional (some few exceptions such as pre-orders) but they enjoy equal placement on best-seller lists, highest rated, and also boughts as they are based on customer behavior not co-op dollars.

But now we have:

1. Distribution: Traditional books don't need to be exclusive, but self-published books MUST be.

2. Payment: Traditional are paid as if a purchase was made --- which is of course tied to price of the book.  Self-published authors are paid from the KOLL pool and whether their book retails for $0.99 or $9.99 their share is the same.

Am I the only one bothered by this second-class citizen treatment?  If given the choice - wouldn't we want the terms that traditionally published books get? Why are they offering the publishers so much?  Because they won't opt in any other way...and even with such attractive terms I suspect most big-five won't as they can't accept change, especially if it might hit their most voracious readers.  Why isn't Amazon offering self published authors such good terms?  Because they know they can get us for a lot less.


----------



## 75814

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> But can you offer the individual parts through select, and then offer the bundle *only* on Amazon but not on select? No other channels involved, just Amazon and Amazon Select.


Well, yeah that would be fine. Although I'm not quite sure how this strategy would be beneficial. You're still restricting yourself solely to the Kindle market.



books_mb said:


> And you see this as a problem? Granted, it's not the nicest thing to do, but sounds like normal capitalism to me. I'm sure B&N is trying hard to eliminate competitors as well.


Are you telling me that you _don't_ see it as a problem? Did the Supreme Court's egregious rulings on corporate personhood also outlaw the past century or so of historical knowledge? How can anyone think actions designed to destroy the competition and establish a monopoly are anything other than supremely bad for consumers?



Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Am I the only one bothered by this second-class citizen treatment? If given the choice - wouldn't we want the terms that traditionally published books get? Why are they offering the publishers so much? Because they won't opt in any other way...and even with such attractive terms I suspect most big-five won't as they can't accept change, especially if it might hit their most voracious readers. Why isn't Amazon offering self published authors such good terms? Because they know they can get us for a lot less.


No, you're not. I share your same concerns. And yet, there are those who will still swear through their teeth that Amazon is doing what's best for indies. Ironically enough, these are the same people who talk of traditionally-published authors being victims of Stockholm Syndrome.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Perry Constantine said:


> You're still restricting yourself solely to the Kindle market


The kindle market and anyone with a Kindle app that allows them to read their kindle books on a non-kindle device.


----------



## 75814

Jim Johnson said:


> The kindle market and anyone with a Kindle app that allows them to read their kindle books on a non-kindle device.


Okay, and your rebuttal would be...? My point still stands that if you go with Select for the individual episode of a serial and make your bundle Amazon-only but still not Kindle exclusive then you're still restricting yourself to the Kindle ecosystem. How does what you said contradict or rebut any of that? There are still people in the world who own e-readers that do not conform to the Kindle ecosystem. The availability of Kindle apps doesn't change that.


----------



## FictionalWriter

The top indie sellers are treated like publishers. I see several titles soaring in ranks right now by several top indies and I know for a fact those books are not in KDP Select. It's all about how many readers (dollars) you can bring to the program. But when you're paying those indies and the J.K. Rowlings of the world the same as if the books were purchased, this is a program that could conceivably bankrupt itself.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

romanceauthor said:


> The top indie sellers are treated like publishers. I see several titles soaring in ranks right now by several top indies and I know for a fact those books are not in KDP Select. It's all about how many readers (dollars) you can bring to the program. But when you're paying those indies and the J.K. Rowlings of the world the same as if the books were purchased, this is a program that could conceivably bankrupt itself.


Yes the Rowlings and big outliers (perhaps Bella) will get sweetheart deals. Hugh got fixed-length term AND print-only...but their sales are high so they deserve such special treatement. I'm not concerned about what they get....they have the sales power to demand more and when they get it I'm happy for them. But I'm talking about us "mere mortals". Why does a mid-list traditionally published author get offered (through his publisher) such a better deal than we do. Many "midlist" indies bring in more than "midlist" traditional. All I'm asking is that the terms be the same across the board. Let us be in KU without exclusivity - and pay us our full royalty rather than the KOLL pool. We shouldn't have to accept the worse deal. But we will...and that' why we're not being offered more.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Perry Constantine said:


> Okay, and your rebuttal would be...? My point still stands that if you go with Select for the individual episode of a serial and make your bundle Amazon-only but still not Kindle exclusive then you're still restricting yourself to the Kindle ecosystem. How does what you said contradict or rebut any of that? There are still people in the world who own e-readers that do not conform to the Kindle ecosystem. The availability of Kindle apps doesn't change that.


Apologies. I reread the section of the discussion and realized I commented on something not directly relevant to your comments.

Sorry for the interruption. Carry on.


----------



## FictionalWriter

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Yes the Rowlings and big outliers (perhaps Bella) will get sweetheart deals. Hugh got fixed-length term AND print-only...but their sales are high so they deserve such special treatement. I'm not concerned about what they get....they have the sales power to demand more and when they get it I'm happy for them. But I'm talking about us "mere mortals". Why does a mid-list traditionally published author get offered (through his publisher) such a better deal than we do. Many "midlist" indies bring in more than "midlist" traditional. All I'm asking is that the terms be the same across the board. Let us be in KU without exclusivity - and pay us our full royalty rather than the KOLL pool. We shouldn't have to accept the worse deal. But we will...and that' why we're not being offered more.


They couldn't AFFORD to pay everyone like J.K. etc. The program would cease to be even remotely profitable. The big names are the lure. The big question is will readers stay on and pay $ for the selection available in this library after their free month is over. If all the books you want to read going forward are NOT in the program, it becomes a waste of $10 a month when you could use that money to buy books you do want.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

So, I've read all the posts on this thread (I think...eghads, there's a lot!) and I'm still not clear on one thing. Has anyone gotten a definitive answer on whether or not the amount per book paid from the pool at the end of the month is the same, regardless of purchase price and length, or is that still in question?


----------



## Jim Johnson

Chrisbwritin said:


> So, I've read all the posts on this thread (I think...eghads, there's a lot!) and I'm still not clear on one thing. Has anyone gotten a definitive answer on whether or not the amount per book paid from the pool at the end of the month is the same, regardless of purchase price and length, or is that still in question?


It sounds like in most cases, books get the same chunk of change from the pool, regardless of length or purchase price. Michael Sullivan is indicating some titles may get a different payout. I may have missed the link to that information. Michael--do you have a source to share so that we can add it to the info pool? I recall yesterday morning someone had posted more details on the alternate royalty rates, but it got buried early in the day.


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## Jim Johnson

Ah, found some more details. Michael Underwood had posted earlier in the about the royalty details but had to redact some of it, and then Michael Sullivan posted more details in the comments.

Here's the link: http://michaelrunderwood.com/2014/07/18/kindle-unlimited/#comments


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

romanceauthor said:


> They couldn't AFFORD to pay everyone like J.K. etc. The program would cease to be even remotely profitable. The big names are the lure. The big question is will readers stay on and pay $ for the selection available in this library after their free month is over. If all the books you want to read going forward are NOT in the program, it becomes a waste of $10 a month when you could use that money to buy books you do want.


Amazon has a long standing tradition on taking a loss to gain a market position. If they REALLY think subscription is the future then they will lose money to dominate the people who want books through subscriptions. But you are right, they'll have a limited number of titles from the big players...just enough for the lure you speak of. I think all the subscription services suffer from too few titles that readers want. I'm not sure if Oyster and Scribd are doing well or poorly - that would be a good indicator. Does anyone know?


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

Chrisbwritin said:


> So, I've read all the posts on this thread (I think...eghads, there's a lot!) and I'm still not clear on one thing. Has anyone gotten a definitive answer on whether or not the amount per book paid from the pool at the end of the month is the same, regardless of purchase price and length, or is that still in question?


The pool is and has always been total pool / downloads. Price and length do not factor in.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Jim Johnson said:


> It sounds like in most cases, books get the same chunk of change from the pool, regardless of length or purchase price. Michael Sullivan is indicating some titles may get a different payout. I may have missed the link to that information. Michael--do you have a source to share so that we can add it to the info pool? I recall yesterday morning someone had posted more details on the alternate royalty rates, but it got buried early in the day.


Thanks, Jim, and thanks Michael for the response. Verra interesting, all of it.
*sits back and chews popcorn thoughtfully*


----------



## Wansit

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> I'm not sure if Oyster and Scribd are doing well or poorly - that would be a good indicator. Does anyone know?


I don't think Oyster or Scribd are doing all that well.

Here's the info from Underwood's site for anyone who missed it:

*Terms - or 'How Are Authors and Publishers Getting Paid?'*

What that page *doesn't* mention is how authors/publishers are paid. But I have that information, and I've been told it's to be public.

Be aware that the terms that were confirmed for me apply to Amazon Publishing titles, and may be different for other publishers.

Every time a KU user reads more than 10% of a book through Kindle Unlimited (which is roughly equivalent for the current sampling structure), a sale is credited, earning the author the full ebook royalty rate - which is calculated based on the average cost of the book during the month in question. Presumably, this also extends to an audio listen that goes past 10%.

This means that if a book is on sale for $1.99 for 3 weeks in the month, and then goes to $4.99 for the last week, any borrows during that month, even in the last week, are going to pay a royalty more like a $1.99 sale than a $4.99 sale.

If this same structure applies to self-published authors (my brief survey shows KDP select titles available in KU, but perhaps not other self-published titles), it's a notable change to the utility of KDP Select vs. regular KDP, and may have implications to how KDP select self-publishers manage their pricing promotions.

Takeaway

Unless the terms for other publishers (including self-publishers) are notably worse than for Amazon Publishing authors' titles, Kindle Unlimited is likely to create very stiff competition for the existing ebook subscription services such as Oyster and Scribd. It'll be interesting to see how much volume of sales KU generates, and whether that changes other ebook purchasing habits. I see the subscription model as being best for voracious readers who want versatility as well as depth of selection, vs. less high-volume readers who may need to be more selective in their purchases, and will probably continue to shop based on individual authors and titles.

The publishing seas continue to change quickly, as they have for several years. May the winds be at your back, and a friend at your side come the next storm.

And to be mercenary for a moment, if you sign up for Kindle Unlimited, Shield and Crocus is in fact one of those titles you can read as part of the free trial. *wink wink*


----------



## Jim Johnson

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Am I the only one bothered by this second-class citizen treatment? If given the choice - wouldn't we want the terms that traditionally published books get? Why are they offering the publishers so much? Because they won't opt in any other way...and even with such attractive terms I suspect most big-five won't as they can't accept change, especially if it might hit their most voracious readers. Why isn't Amazon offering self published authors such good terms? Because they know they can get us for a lot less.


I'm working my way through the Publishers Marketplace articles on KU now, but assuming the alternate pricing deals are in place, I imagine one tactic would be for indies to simply not enroll in Select/KU and write to Amazon explaining that we want equivalent treatment. We may not be able to control the royalties paid, but we can control whether we participate or not.


----------



## EmilyG

Here's some stats of what is in the KU library collected by someone on reddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/2b1or2/kindle_unlimited_officially_launched/cj122uv


> Here are some numbers for the Unlimited library as it currently stands.
> -The Unlimited library gives you access to 23% of all Kindle books.
> -The Unlimited library has 4,641 free e-books (I tried to find out how many were ebooks that regularly sold for less than $2, but I don't think I can do that because there are too many).
> -101,503 of the nearly 640,227 books are non-english.
> -About 60% of the books have no Amazon reviews.
> -18% of the Fiction and Literature on Unlimited is erotica.


Most of the people on the other boards I frequent are not overly excited and are waiting to see if any big publishers come on board. It will be interesting to see what is the subscription drop-off rate after the free 30 days expires.


----------



## omar

So how and when will you know someone read past 10% of your book. There's only one column in the reporting dashboard and it says:

"KU/KOLL"

Does that mean it was downloaded or read past 10%?


----------



## StraightNoChaser

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Am I the only one bothered by this second-class citizen treatment? If given the choice - wouldn't we want the terms that traditionally published books get? Why are they offering the publishers so much?


Your certainly aren't the only one. I'm feeling very second class right now and it's not a warm, fuzzy feeling.

I've followed this thread as much as time allows, but I'm unclear on one thing about the special indies and publishers that don't have to be exclusive. Where does their money come from? It's a contract between them and Amazon right? Is the Select fund only for Select authors, or are we splitting that with the big names?


----------



## Wansit

Chase said:


> Is the Select fund only for Select authors, or are we splitting that with the big names?


Select fund is only for Select authors. But publishers and Indies-in-Select-but-not-restricted are paid from amazon's other massive warchest.


----------



## StraightNoChaser

Wansit said:


> Select fund is only for Select authors. But publishers and Indies-in-Select-but-not-restricted are paid from amazon's other massive warchest.


Thanks for the clarification. That's makes this a little better, I suppose, but I'm still pissed that big name indies don't have to be exclusive and I do. I never should have opted into this program, what a crock!


----------



## Lady Vine

It's entirely possible that all of the Big 5's books will be entered automatically, without the need for exclusivity and cut royalties. As long as Amazon pays them the sale price, they really wouldn't care how the books were getting to the readers. I think that's the way they'll do it. There's no reason at all for Amazon to offer the same deal to indies in Select, because they know, despite the power Indies think they have, it will take a helluva lot to get them to drop out. Building momentum on other platforms is hard work; Amazon knows that _indies_ know this.

And, just as an aside, don't think for a minute that just because your book has been popular on Amazon (whilst in Select, I might add) you're going to come off and sell equally as well on the other platforms. There are many authors on here, myself included, who can tell you there are some books that sell gangbusters on iTunes, Kobo or B&N, but barely move on Amazon.


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## nubchai

jackiegp said:


> Then they can read them and return them and get 10 more!


Yes, it's basically a subscription lending library.


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## nubchai

omar said:


> So how and when will you know someone read past 10% of your book. There's only one column in the reporting dashboard and it says:
> 
> "KU/KOLL"
> 
> Does that mean it was downloaded or read past 10%?


If KU is paid out of a separate pool of money, I wish they would report KU separately from KOLL.


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## Jim Johnson

nubchai said:


> If KU is paid out of a separate pool of money, I wish they would report KU separately from KOLL.


It's not. KU and KOLL are paid out of the same pool of money. It effectively doesn't matter whether the user read 10% through KU or used their Select borrow for the month on the book. It counts as the same and comes out of the same pool.


----------



## adanlerma

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Amazon has a long standing tradition on taking a loss to gain a market position. If they REALLY think subscription is the future then they will lose money to dominate the people who want books through subscriptions. But you are right, they'll have a limited number of titles from the big players...just enough for the lure you speak of. I think all the subscription services suffer from too few titles that readers want. I'm not sure if Oyster and Scribd are doing well or poorly - that would be a good indicator. Does anyone know?


Both Scribd and Oyster say they are bringing in new subscribers and doing well. And Smashwords has a blog post out today saying those two services are growing faster for the authors in them (myself included) than the other available outlets. The latter stmt jives with my own experience.

Consider that the two services have a lot of big publisher titles, and of course many many from the huge number not exclusive anywhere (some of which I've read are or have been on the best seller lists) - and that sounds like good reasons Amazon has moved forward into the same style program.

And personally, I think Amazon would do even better without the exclusivity clause.

I'll still give KU a whirl though, both as a reader and writer.

Good to know first hand


----------



## adanlerma

Wansit said:


> I don't think Oyster or Scribd are doing all that well...
> 
> And to be mercenary for a moment, if you sign up for Kindle Unlimited, Shield and Crocus is in fact one of those titles you can read as part of the free trial. *wink wink*


Wansit, can you be more specific in regard to Oyster and Scribd not doing well?

My own experience with them, as a reader and writer, has been very good.

And of course they have a lot of the indie titles not in Select.

Best wishes on Shield and Crocus also, truly.


----------



## nubchai

Jim Johnson said:


> It's not. KU and KOLL are paid out of the same pool of money. It effectively doesn't matter whether the user read 10% through KU or used their Select borrow for the month on the book. It counts as the same and comes out of the same pool.


But are the payout rates different? Will KOLL be $1.50 per borrow and KU downloads be at a different rate? If it's all the same rate per book, then I can see why they combined the KOLL/KU totals.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

nubchai said:


> But are the payout rates different? Will KOLL be $1.50 per borrow and KU downloads be at a different rate? If it's all the same rate per book, then I can see why they combined the KOLL/KU totals.


Same pool same rate... But same royalty? No one knows and can'tknow until the download numbers are in. If there are three times as many downloads as normal (Hugh reported that's what he's seeing, but freaking hell he's THE Howey) then the royalty will be about $1 (Amazon increased the pool but didn't triple it) The number could literally be anything from a few cents to a few dollars.


----------



## Piers Platt

Assuming KU borrows read past 10% count towards Sales Rank like KOLL downloads do, that could have a big impact on my sales, as my best earner teeters between pg 1 and 2 on a couple different (very niche) category bestseller lists, and +1 or 2 sales per day can mean the difference.

I'm a pretty small fish in this pond, only have one book selling steadily! But it's enough to put me over four figures each month, which is way more than I had hoped for. I pulled my books from Select last quarter to try broader distribution, but have seen very little movement in iBooks, B&N, Google Play, et al. I'm giving up an additional ~10% in KOLL revenue, and who knows what in KU revenue now waiting for those channels to pick up steam...but my combined sales through other channels are nowhere close to my KOLL $ figure. *What do you experienced guys & gals think, is 3 months enough time to test those channels?* I don't mind being one of the guinea pigs to try out KU and report back, since I don't have that much riding on the line...


----------



## nubchai

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Same pool same rate... But same royalty? No one knows and can'tknow until the download numbers are in. If there are three times as many downloads as normal (Hugh reported that's what he's seeing, but freaking hell he's THE Howey) then the royalty will be about $1 (Amazon increased the pool but didn't triple it) The number could literally be anything from a few cents to a few dollars.


Yes I'm sure some niches will see a real boost in downloads if this takes off past the 30-day trial period they're offering. It will be interesting to see actul payout numbers.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Piers Platt said:


> Assuming KU borrows read past 10% count towards Sales Rank like KOLL downloads do, that could have a big impact on my sales, as my best earner teeters between pg 1 and 2 on a couple different (very niche) category bestseller lists, and +1 or 2 sales per day can mean the difference.
> 
> I'm a pretty small fish in this pond, only have one book selling steadily! But it's enough to put me over four figures each month, which is way more than I had hoped for. I pulled my books from Select last quarter to try broader distribution, but have seen very little movement in iBooks, B&N, Google Play, et al. I'm giving up an additional ~10% in KOLL revenue, and who knows what in KU revenue now waiting for those channels to pick up steam...but my combined sales through other channels are nowhere close to my KOLL $ figure. *What do you experienced guys & gals think, is 3 months enough time to test those channels?* I don't mind being one of the guinea pigs to try out KU and report back, since I don't have that much riding on the line...


To get going in Kobo and Google especially, you need keywords in your blurbs plus a permafree book if possible. I say this only using my own experience to base this upon. Barnes took my permafree and a Bookbub that hit all the channels, and Apple might have gained from that as well because its gaining momentum. Barnes is absolutely booming for me right now, Google is getting better month on month, and Kobo is in the early stages of start up for me (although I've been in there ages) since adding a keyword rich synopsis paragraph to the end of my blurbs. I couldn't give stuff away at Kobo before that. Now Iam selling a couple of books there a day. Small potatoes yet but encouraging from a standpoint of someone who previously saw zero months all the time at Kobo.


----------



## adanlerma

So much good info and ideas back & forth, but gotta work on my short and probably put it in KU as an experiential test.

My own best feeling is, exclusivity, at least for indies, has out-lived its usefulness.

Unless non-competition is regulated into having rights to an area, like the cable companies and others in places (which almost everyone hates) there is little to gain here, I think.

Otherwise, at some point, with libraries entering the digital age at warp speed, and being funded by local folks tax dollars, they will become as easy to access as any commercial platform out there now.

Hard to believe, I know  But check out OverDrive's posts, and do a Google search as to what libraries are doing. It's incredible.

http://blogs.overdrive.com/in-the-news/

Check out the second post there, http://blogs.overdrive.com/front-page-library-news/2014/06/26/overdrive-to-present-20142015-ebook-lending-roadmap-at-national-library-conference/

Anyway, best wishes everyone, I'm off to write


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

Chrisbwritin said:


> Thanks, Jim, and thanks Michael for the response. Verra interesting, all of it.
> *sits back and chews popcorn thoughtfully*


I'm not sure if this link is behind a firewall or not (http://lunch.publishersmarketplace.com/2014/07/authors-kindle-unlimited/) but here is what it says:

*For Authors/Publishers Participating By Direct Agreement*
These credits/payments will work in a manner similar to other ebook subscription terms, we are told. Any time a reader goes beyond an agreed upon threshold of a particular book -- 10 percent to 20 percent is the range that we have heard -- it is then treated as a full "sale" and the publisher is paid the normal wholesale price of the ebook (and will report that to the author as a sale).

Over the past couple of months we have been told of publishers and individual authors being offered cash payments upfront to participate as well. We do not know if those are advance guarantees or other forms of payment, nor do we know how houses would account for those monies if they are being paid.

*For Authors/Publishers Participating Without Direct Agreement, Under Current Contracts*
This is the example we already cited regarding Scholastic's books, and it applies to many other high-profile titles as well. Here the situation is the same as with Kindle Owners Lending Library titles that were offered for "borrowing" without direct publisher consent. As soon as customer starts reading a given book, it will be treated as a full "sale" -- without any minimum reading threshhold -- and the publisher will be paid the normal wholesale price of the ebook.

*Self-Published KDP Select Authors/Publishers*
This the object of discussion right now on online forums. Will it be treated like the Kindle Owner's Lending Library -- in which authors receive a pro-rata share of a monthly pool of cash, where the amount of that pool is decided in Amazon's sole discretion?


----------



## MarkCoker

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> I'm not sure if Oyster and Scribd are doing well or poorly - that would be a good indicator. Does anyone know?


I know.  Smashwords is the largest supplier of titles to both of these services. They're our two fastest growing retail channels. Scribd is the larger of the two, but Oyster's growing the fastest. Below is the aggregated sales chart from my blog post on Kindle Unlimited at http://blog.smashwords.com/2014/07/is-kindle-unlimited-bad-for-authors.html 

Combined, they're still smaller than Kobo, but they're already our fifth and six largest sales channels after iBooks, B&N, Kobo and the Smashwords store. There's a decent chance each grows to assume our #3 and #4 positions in the next 12 months, and that would be really impressive. Though even if both were to flatline tomorrow and stop growing, they're already at a level where if all your books aren't there, you're missing out. Our authors are earning 60% of list price.


----------



## Rykymus

Ugh. So much speculation, so much hearsay, and so little facts.

I will do as I have always done. I will watch for real evidence on how it effects MY goals, and then act accordingly.

That is also the best advice I can offer anyone else at this point.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

Piers Platt said:


> Assuming KU borrows read past 10% count towards Sales Rank like KOLL downloads do, that could have a big impact on my sales, as my best earner teeters between pg 1 and 2 on a couple different (very niche) category bestseller lists, and +1 or 2 sales per day can mean the difference.
> 
> I'm a pretty small fish in this pond, only have one book selling steadily! But it's enough to put me over four figures each month, which is way more than I had hoped for. I pulled my books from Select last quarter to try broader distribution, but have seen very little movement in iBooks, B&N, Google Play, et al. I'm giving up an additional ~10% in KOLL revenue, and who knows what in KU revenue now waiting for those channels to pick up steam...but my combined sales through other channels are nowhere close to my KOLL $ figure. *What do you experienced guys & gals think, is 3 months enough time to test those channels?* I don't mind being one of the guinea pigs to try out KU and report back, since I don't have that much riding on the line...


I think you need to stick with one strategy or another for at least 9 months, possibly longer. My experience was the same, over a 15 month period. I made more from KOLL on the first book in a new series, than I did for 5 titles combined on every other channel. Every author experiences different levels of "success" in and out of Select. There's no one guaranteed path. Give it time.


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## dmac

Day 2 of KU, and the indie publishing universe has yet to collapse in on itself. Shocker. In fact, from what I am seeing noon, sales have rebounded, while KOLL/KU continues to collect borrows...

Breathe in...breathe out...

There. Now, shall we wait at least another week, or perhaps a month, to see how this all shakes out?


----------



## dragontucker

Is anyone trying out Kindle Unlimited to see how sales do?

I had an idea for a short novel of around 5-10k words and just started on it today. It is kinda exciting to see how it does in the Kindle Unlimited marketplace. I should be done with it in a few days and will test the waters with it.

What do you guys think? I think this could be a outlet for series. I mean I figure my first book with be a small part of a larger series. I see some potential in writing short books for a large series here. I think there are a lot of people who would like to read short books. I am know I am a little like that....I prefer shorter reads.

Anyone tested the waters yet? Would we make $1 per 10% read on the short novels too?


----------



## dragontucker

LOL just got an email from a internet marketer hyping this up.

He says basically that you make $2 to give away a free book no matter how short it is. We don't know that they will pay us $2 per 10% read yet do we?


----------



## JumpingShip

KU is a great way for Amazon to get more people browsing on Amazon. Prime is great for shipping, movies and the one book borrow, but as a Prime user myself, I often don't browse unless I have something specific in mind that I want to buy. If I'm short on cash one month (okay, confession--every month!  ) I don't even browse for books unless they are free, and with ENT, POI, Bookbub, I don't even need to go to Amazon to find those, only to download, then I spend that second one-clicking, and I'm back to the email/FB page/website that linked me there. With KU, I would have no qualms about browsing. I wouldn't have to wait for KOLL books to go free, or decide which book is worthy of my one free download a month--I'd just get what I want when I want it. Oh, and while I'm browsing, I may decide to buy popcorn, a new pillow and a new case for my Kindle--all because I am right there on Amazon when those random thoughts pop into my head. (Oh, popcorn sounds good, but shoot, we're almost out. I don't feel like stopping at the store tomorrow to get more...oh, wait!)


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## abishop

Rykymus said:


> Ugh. So much speculation, so much hearsay, and so little facts.
> 
> I will do as I have always done. I will watch for real evidence on how it effects MY goals, and then act accordingly.
> 
> That is also the best advice I can offer anyone else at this point.


I think it would be foolish for anyone to have an opinion about KU that's set in stone at this point, but similarly it doesn't seem very wise to avoid thinking of the plausible outcomes and trying to be prepared for them rather than trying to move at the last minute.


----------



## Alondo

dragontucker said:


> Is anyone trying out Kindle Unlimited to see how sales do?
> 
> I had an idea for a short novel of around 5-10k words and just started on it today. It is kinda exciting to see how it does in the Kindle Unlimited marketplace. I should be done with it in a few days and will test the waters with it.
> 
> What do you guys think? I think this could be a outlet for series. I mean I figure my first book with be a small part of a larger series. I see some potential in writing short books for a large series here. I think there are a lot of people who would like to read short books. I am know I am a little like that....I prefer shorter reads.
> 
> Anyone tested the waters yet? Would we make $1 per 10% read on the short novels too?


Preparing "Episode One" of my current work in progress for upload to KOLL/KU as we speak. I've never put anything in Select before. Will let you know how it goes.


----------



## Quiss

dmac said:


> Day 2 of KU, and the indie publishing universe has yet to collapse in on itself.


Not sure that those whose sales have dropped significantly since yesterday would share your enthusiasm.
We all live in our own little universe.


----------



## KZoe

Lady Vine said:


> It's entirely possible that all of the Big 5's books will be entered automatically, without the need for exclusivity and cut royalties.


Unlikely. The Big 5's contracts with Amazon are wholesale terms and, I am reasonably certain, wouldn't allow for lending or borrowing by default.


----------



## Jill Nojack

carter.s said:


> Unlikely. The Big 5's contracts with Amazon are wholesale terms and, I am reasonably certain, wouldn't allow for lending or borrowing by default.


All Amazon has to do is pay them the exact same amount as they would for a purchase if the book is borrowed. I believe this is part of the current conflict in the contract negotiation between Hachette and Amazon. Amazon wants to pay less per ebook so they can put the books into KU without a separate contract.


----------



## books_mb

Rykymus said:


> Ugh. So much speculation, so much hearsay, and so little facts.


Yeah, I think stealing nuclear secrets would be much simpler than finding out Amazon's plans. It's sad that KDP authors don't know more than anyone else. Just a generic email from KDP, that's it. Considering they make a lot of money from our books, that's really weak. Amazon, at least let us know what royalties per borrow you are aiming for.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

omar said:


> So how and when will you know someone read past 10% of your book. There's only one column in the reporting dashboard and it says:
> 
> "KU/KOLL"
> 
> Does that mean it was downloaded or read past 10%?


When it shows up is when someone has read past 10%. Prior to that you don't even know they downloaded. At least from what I can tell.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

Chase said:


> Your certainly aren't the only one. I'm feeling very second class right now and it's not a warm, fuzzy feeling.
> I've followed this thread as much as time allows, but I'm unclear on one thing about the special indies and publishers that don't have to be exclusive. Where does their money come from? It's a contract between them and Amazon right? Is the Select fund only for Select authors, or are we splitting that with the big names?


Their money is not coming from the select pool - only the KDP people are being paid through it. My wife and I were discussing this at lunch and our take....the self-published authors are essentially subsidizing the traditional published authors much as the successful traditional published books subsidize those that fail. In other words. One group is having their earnings smaller than they would otherwise because another group is being paid with the difference.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

adanlerma said:


> Both Scribd and Oyster say they are bringing in new subscribers and doing well. And Smashwords has a blog post out today saying those two services are growing faster for the authors in them (myself included) than the other available outlets. The latter stmt jives with my own experience.
> 
> Consider that the two services have a lot of big publisher titles, and of course many many from the huge number not exclusive anywhere (some of which I've read are or have been on the best seller lists) - and that sounds like good reasons Amazon has moved forward into the same style program.


Publishers don't look at Oyster and Scribd with the same eyes that they do Amazon. They see Amazon as trying to destroy them...and just might be able to do it. They aren't going to give them more rope to hang themselves with. Oyster and Scribd are just another distribution channel to them. They always like channels and always have a love hate relationship with Amazon. Love because they sell so many of their books, hate because they know they have more power than they do....and it's mostly because they GAVE them this power. They won't give them any more.


----------



## KZoe

VEVO said:


> And streaming music revenue in the USA is about to hit $2,000,000,000 in revenue this year and will surpass download music revenue in about 12 months.
> 
> 2012 RIAA #:
> 
> Streaming Revenue: $1.0328 billion USD (up 59%)
> Singles Download Revenue: $1.623.6 billion USD (up 6.7%)
> Album Download Revenue: $1.205 billion USD-----------------combined downloads at $2.829 billion
> CD (physical): $2.4856 billion USD
> 
> 2013 RIAA#:
> 
> Streaming Revenue: $1.439 billion USD (up 39.3%)
> Singles Download Revenue: $1.569 billion USD (down 3.4%)
> Album Download Revenue: $1.234 billion USD (up 2.4%) ----combined downloads is at $2.803 billion
> CD (physical): $2.1235 (down 14.6%)
> 
> Soundscan 2014 first half report is out. Streaming is up 42% and download is down 13%
> 
> 2014 prediction:
> 
> Streaming Revenue: $2.015 billion (up 40%)
> Download combined: $2.450 billion


Revenue does not equal profit nor does it reflect what the *artists* are getting paid. Remember: Spotify has yet to make a profit; they're bleeding cash and are going to need to increase revenue/lower costs somehow to appease their investors.

Purely anecdotal: my husband's band, signed by a small but solid label, is getting screwed by streaming services. The band (not individual members) would earn approximately $1.80 for each album or about $0.20 per song sold through digital downloads. The band gets $0.006 per Spotify stream which has cannibalized their sales. Half a penny for a 4-person band. The number of streams, while healthy, don't come close to making up for lost sales, piracy, and rising costs of production/touring/merchandise.

Bands with big labels and legal power behind them fair better - but only slightly.


----------



## books_mb

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Their money is not coming from the select pool - only the KDP people are being paid through it. My wife and I were discussing this at lunch and our take....the self-published authors are essentially subsidizing the traditional published authors much as the successful traditional published books subsidize those that fail. In other words. One group is having their earnings smaller than they would otherwise because another group is being paid with the difference.


This seems to be the case. However, I'm hoping that the big names we are subsidizing will draw a large crowd which will eventually turn their attention to indies. In this case the subsidy would actually turn out to be an investment with a neat interest rate. Big name author = our loss leader? Of course, this scenario is only possible if Amazon limits the number of trad pub authors in KU (which I think is likely given that they have a more costly contract).


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

books_mb said:


> This seems to be the case. However, I'm hoping that the big names we are subsidizing will draw a large crowd which will eventually turn their attention to indies. In this case the subsidy would actually turn out to be an investment with a neat interest rate. Big name author = our loss leader? Of course, this scenario is only possible if Amazon limits the number of trad pub authors in KU (which I think is likely given that they have a more costly contract).


An interesting perspective. My prediction...the "big names" will get most of the downloads, but they won't be in the pool so it won't matter. I think those that have done well with "loans" in the past will continue to, and those that are newly entering Select will be hard to find. But of course it's all speculation. It will be interesting to see how things play out.


----------



## Alondo

I uploaded Episode One of my work in progress. Interestingly, I encountered a KDP tool that advised me to price it at 2.99, though it's less than 5000 words, so that's what I did. I've never used Select before, so I hope that's right!


----------



## Lady Vine

Jill Nojack said:


> All Amazon has to do is pay them the exact same amount as they would for a purchase if the book is borrowed. I believe this is part of the current conflict in the contract negotiation between Hachette and Amazon. Amazon wants to pay less per ebook so they can put the books into KU without a separate contract.


Right. You get it.


----------



## katrina46

Frank Zubek said:


> I think the old guard at the paper boy club in New York are scared. And of course that gets passed down to the many authors who have contracts with them.
> Fear, unfortunately, has a way of stalling the inevitable. History itself proves that.


Here's what I think. Traditional publishers and indies alike publish on Amazon because there is money to be made. When the money pot shrinks so will the numbers of books on Amazon. From what I understand, trad pubs still get their full royalties. It's indies that don't. They might just be thrilled at getting rid of a lot of indies for now. Later, if they don't like the terms they'll pull away, but it's likely that Amazon will keep the pot sweet for them. Instead of working against traditional publishers Amazon will have a new we're all on the same team attitude. That's just my prediction, but I'm a hybrid. I wrote long before the indie revolution. I'll write if it ends, too.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

All my books are in Select, but not all of them are showing the KU logo. Anyone else seeing this?


----------



## 10105

KU side effects? On the 17th and 18th, my permafree book, which is not in Select, had almost 900 downloads, an unusually high number except during promotions. Something about KU must have called attention to the title. Or else someone else who has a wide readership conincidentally mentioned it in a blog. A google on the title turns up nothing unexpected though. Anyone else notice a non-Select bump on those days?


----------



## Incognita

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:



> All my books are in Select, but not all of them are showing the KU logo. Anyone else seeing this?


I saw it on all of them. Maybe it's not showing up for you because you're not in the U.S.?


----------



## Philip Gibson

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> All my books are in Select, but not all of them are showing the KU logo. Anyone else seeing this?


You're not seeing the logo because you're in South Africa and KU is only available in the U.S.

Here in Laos, I typed in 'Kindle Unlimited' on the Amazon page and it just told me KU was not available in my area yet.

The "yet" part is interesting. Not that they'll ever get to Laos.

Philip


----------



## Vaalingrade

katrina46 said:


> Here's what I think. Traditional publishers and indies alike publish on Amazon because there is money to be made. When the money pot shrinks so will the numbers of books on Amazon. From what I understand, trad pubs still get their full royalties. It's indies that don't. They might just be thrilled at getting rid of a lot of indies for now. Later, if they don't like the terms they'll pull away, but it's likely that Amazon will keep the pot sweet for them. Instead of working against traditional publishers Amazon will have a new we're all on the same team attitude. That's just my prediction, but I'm a hybrid. I wrote long before the indie revolution. I'll write if it ends, too.


The one thing they are NOT doing is shaking out indies.

Amazon could not in any way, in any universe care less about how many 'non-performers' they have. The point of this exercise is to use the Select numbers to snake Scribd and Oyster.

Just like with the initial Kindle Wars, they do this with Select's exclusivity, locking up a massive amount of content and then advertising the Very Big Number of available books on their new subscription service. The hope is to get people to leave Scribd and Oyster for them, starving them out and hopefully steal some content from them via exclusivity along the way.

The intent isn't a 'shake out' indies, it's just a possible (unlikely) side effect. They know they're not going to see a mass exodus no matter what because Select numbers weathered their anti-free algo tweaks and affiliate changes, Countdown's lackluster rollout and earlier poor return on borrow in Select (it's been $2 for a while, but when I was locked in, it was $1.05).


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

MarkCoker said:


> I know.  Smashwords is the largest supplier of titles to both of these services. They're our two fastest growing retail channels. Scribd is the larger of the two, but Oyster's growing the fastest. Below is the aggregated sales chart from my blog post on Kindle Unlimited at http://blog.smashwords.com/2014/07/is-kindle-unlimited-bad-for-authors.html


Thanks Mark can you give me the rankings for by sales and by units for the various channels you represent. I'm writing an article. The ones I'm most interested in is B&N, ibookstore, Kobo, Oyster, Scribd, and direct via smashwords.

That would be really helpful.


----------



## Colin

books_mb said:


> Yeah, I think stealing nuclear secrets would be much simpler than finding out Amazon's plans. It's sad that KDP authors don't know more than anyone else. Just a generic email from KDP, that's it. Considering they make a lot of money from our books, that's really weak. Amazon, at least let us know what royalties per borrow you are aiming for.


Yeah. Where's Edward Snowden when you need him?


----------



## Bluebonnet

Colin said:


> Yeah. Where's Edward Snowden when you need him?


We need an IndieLeaks geek group.


----------



## katrina46

Vaalingrade said:


> The one thing they are NOT doing is shaking out indies.
> 
> Amazon could not in any way, in any universe care less about how many 'non-performers' they have. The point of this exercise is to use the Select numbers to snake Scribd and Oyster.
> 
> Just like with the initial Kindle Wars, they do this with Select's exclusivity, locking up a massive amount of content and then advertising the Very Big Number of available books on their new subscription service. The hope is to get people to leave Scribd and Oyster for them, starving them out and hopefully steal some content from them via exclusivity along the way.
> 
> The intent isn't a 'shake out' indies, it's just a possible (unlikely) side effect. They know they're not going to see a mass exodus no matter what because Select numbers weathered their anti-free algo tweaks and affiliate changes, Countdown's lackluster rollout and earlier poor return on borrow in Select (it's been $2 for a while, but when I was locked in, it was $1.05).


Actually, though I admit I didn't word it clearly enough, I meant to say the traditional publishers might be thrilled to get rid of the indies. They consider many of us a stain on the literary world. The post I commented on was considering the possibility that trads are scared.


----------



## katrina46

Colin said:


> Yeah. Where's Edward Snowden when you need him?


He's trying to convince Vladimir it's time for him to go home now, but Vlad is currently too busy to listen.


----------



## wtvr

katrina46 said:


> Actually, though I admit I didn't word it clearly enough, I meant to say the traditional publishers might be thrilled to get rid of the indies. They consider many of us a stain on the literary world.


This will shoot a lot of indies up in the rankings, like a LOT. That dilutes the trad's visibility. Those paid-placement/rankings rumors you're probably heard about just got a lot less effective.


----------



## Piers Platt

Mark E. Cooper said:


> ...To get going in Kobo and Google especially, you need keywords in your blurbs plus a permafree book if possible. Barnes took my permafree and a Bookbub that hit all the channels, and Apple might have gained from that as well because its gaining momentum...


Thanks! I have tried the keywords in blurbs thing on Google, but perhaps my keywords are off-base. Also crossing my fingers for a Bookbub spot next month. I'll see what that does for sales before jumping to exclusive on Amazon, I think.



Steven Konkoly said:
 

> I think you need to stick with one strategy or another for at least 9 months, possibly longer. My experience was the same, over a 15 month period. I made more from KOLL on the first book in a new series, than I did for 5 titles combined on every other channel. Every author experiences different levels of "success" in and out of Select. There's no one guaranteed path. Give it time.


Thanks for the perspective, and fist bump to a fellow veteran!


----------



## katrina46

LisaGloria said:


> This will shoot a lot of indies up in the rankings, like a LOT. That dilutes the trad's visibility. Those paid-placement/rankings rumors you're probably heard about just got a lot less effective.


I never really believed there is such a thing as paid placement. I just think Amazon is smart enough to give traditional publishers a bigger boost. I mean, there are still lots of readers that won't touch indies. My friend buys about a book a day. She knows now how to look at product details and see who the publisher is just so she can avoid getting a possible low standard book. She's been burned too many times. Can't blame her.


----------



## wtvr

Mark Coker says:


> Indies would do well to avoid Kindle Unlimited for one simple reason: it requires KDP Select exclusivity.


Maybe this is a little misleading? The author doesn't have to be exclusive. The author's full selection doesn't have to be exclusive. And even an "exclusive" title is only exclusive for 90 days at a time. That's less than the lag from theater release to DVD release for movies. It's a very small window, one title at a time.


----------



## Alondo

LisaGloria said:


> Mark Coker says:
> Maybe this is a little misleading? The author doesn't have to be exclusive. The author's full selection doesn't have to be exclusive. And even an "exclusive" title is only exclusive for 90 days at a time. That's less than the lag from theater release to DVD release for movies. It's a very small window, one title at a time.


That's what I'm doing. My full catalogue is available across all platforms. However, I'm uploading my work in progress by episodes to KU, and hence getting paid as I write. When it's complete, I release the full book. Result, happiness!


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo!

"Thanks for the perspective, and fist bump to a fellow veteran!"

Fist bump back!


----------



## wtvr

Alondo said:


> That's what I'm doing. My full catalogue is available across all platforms. However, I'm uploading my work in progress by episodes to KU, and hence getting paid as I write. When it's complete, I release the full book. Result, happiness!


I think that's reasonable.

I really wish I had my mitts on all the inside data on this stuff. The tone of the press releases indicates a LOT of board room paranoia right now.

Worst case scenario for Scribd/Oyster and others is Zon continues to pay $2+ or more, the better-fed militia tactic.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

All I can say is my author ranking has shot up almost 1,000 points in less than 48 hours on Amazon. I shall call that a win (for now) and now go do my least favorite task of the week: Mow. My neighbor's dog tries to kill me through the fence each time. His name is Demon (no joke), and yet I'm looking forward to spending "quality" time with him and getting away from the purported coming apocalypse. Then, I shall do what comes naturally and: Write. KU Fatigue is starting to set in. I'm a glutton for punishment, though, so I will probably check in later.


----------



## Colin

> Yeah. Where's Edward Snowden when you need him?





katrina46 said:


> He's trying to convince Vladimir it's time for him to go home now, but Vlad is currently too busy to listen.


Possibly. But I reckon he's just popped outside for a leak.


----------



## wtvr

Colin said:


> Possibly. But I reckon he's just popped outside for a leak.


upvoted.


----------



## Maggie Dana

I've read more than half this thread but haven't seen this question asked. If it was and I missed it, my apologies.

If an author pulls their book(s) from Select at the end of their 90 days, will it stay on the reader's Kindle or disappear the moment it's pulled? If the latter, I imagine there will be some pretty p*ssed off readers.


----------



## Vaalingrade

Maggie Dana said:


> I've read more than half this thread but haven't seen this question asked. If it was and I missed it, my apologies.
> 
> If an author pulls their book(s) from Select at the end of their 90 days, will it stay on the reader's Kindle or disappear the moment it's pulled? If the latter, I imagine there will be some pretty p*ssed off readers.


The terms say that if someone uses their read after you've left Select, you still get paid for that read, so that indicates that borrows remain until deleted or the subscription runs out.


----------



## katrina46

Quiss said:


> Well, that's dandy. So self-publishing returns to the days of vanity publishing?
> There are a huge number of authors who pay bills with their work. Like Hugh says, what'll happen when the KOLL share drops to a buck or even less?
> The readers certainly won't care.
> 
> I suppose we should be a little less smug about all those trade publishers getting shafted by the Big 5. We're about to get our turn, methinks.


I'm glad I've never publicly bashed traditional publishers like some of the bloggers I've seen. Never burn bridges because tables always turn. I felt John Locke and Amanda Hocking did their share to doom indies. Who wouldn't rather sell the 70% royalty, but that's harder to do when everyone else is .99. Ironically, I've seen Locke and Hocking in Walmart.


----------



## Jim Johnson

Maggie Dana said:


> I've read more than half this thread but haven't seen this question asked. If it was and I missed it, my apologies.
> 
> If an author pulls their book(s) from Select at the end of their 90 days, will it stay on the reader's Kindle or disappear the moment it's pulled? If the latter, I imagine there will be some pretty p*ssed off readers.


The terms of KU for readers states:



> The Program
> 
> As a member of Kindle Unlimited, you may read Kindle books and listen to Audible audiobooks from a designated list of titles an unlimited number of times for so long as you are a member of the program. *From time to time, we may add or remove titles from the program and we make no guarantee as to the availability of specific titles or the minimum number of titles available.* The program is currently only available to United States customers. If your membership ends, you will no longer have access to the titles you selected from the program.


Amazon can't control the indies who jump ship and abandon their readers, so they needed to cover their bases with that statement. All the more reason for a reader to be prompt in their reading of the books they download. No telling when it might get yanked.


----------



## PhoenixS

***********


----------



## pauldude000

MJAWare said:


> Looks like Amazon just started (at least I've never seen it before) Kindle Unlimited: $9.99 for unlimited access to Prime books?
> 
> Anyone know how we are going to get paid for these books? Is it just like another borrow? I can't imagine it would be, or they'd loose money on the deal?
> 
> (My Select title seem to be auto-enrolled)
> 
> UPDATE: The original link has been removed, so here's a cached copy (thanks to Julie):
> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6jL66Zad7zIJ:www.amazon.com/gp/kindle/ku/sign-up/ui/rw/about+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
> 
> UPDATE 2: Here's a link to the KindleUnlimited Youtube ad (thanks to Karen McQuestion):
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnVNbYdo2FU
> 
> UPDATE 3: It looks like the service is really live now:
> https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b/ref=ARRAY(0xa6e16ea0)?_encoding=UTF8&ie=UTF8&node=9578129011&pfShowFeatures=&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb&ref_=ku_lp_rw_dp_pb&tag=viglink20273-20


Amazon sent e-mails on this.

They added $800,000 to the global fund and the payouts for the books will come from this fund after a customer reads 10% or more of a title. The problem is that borrows are paid from the global fund as well. They less than doubled the global fund, yet will probably quadruple the number of books paid for by said fund. If they pay full royalty for the books from said fund, then the payout value of borrows went through the proverbial floor. If they pay the same as a borrow, then the payout for both went through the proverbial floor. This would be because of five times the normal number of borrows with less than twice the global fund to split per borrow.

Basic economics.

It might be great in one aspect as it might encourage freebie hunters to actually pay something for a book, and that equals higher sales and thus much higher rankings for books in Select. This does have marketing potential for indie writers in Select.

Those who live off of their Select borrows will find themselves going broke either way. Also, once this system gets popular, it heavily tips the board against any books not in Select. It also may spell a serious loss of current market share for such outfits as Smashwords and Kobo. I imagine it will hurt Apple and B&N, but they already have their own reader bases, where Smashwords and Kobo are somewhat generic. It may put ScribD and similar completely out of business since Kindle Unlimited is a carbon copy of their service, but with a vastly superior amount of content for about the same price and Amazon familiarity and consumer trust.


----------



## pauldude000

pauldude000 said:


> Amazon sent e-mails on this.
> 
> They added $800,000 to the global fund and the payouts for the books will come from this fund after a customer reads 10% or more of a title. The problem is that borrows are paid from the global fund as well. They less than doubled the global fund, yet will probably quadruple the number of books paid for by said fund. If they pay full royalty for the books from said fund, then the payout value of borrows went through the proverbial floor. If they pay the same as a borrow, then the payout for both went through the proverbial floor. This would be because of five times the normal number of effective borrows with less than twice the global fund to split per borrow.
> 
> Basic mathematics.
> 
> It might be great in one aspect as it might encourage freebie hunters to actually pay something for a book, and that equals higher sales and thus much higher rankings for books in Select. This does have marketing potential for indie writers in Select.
> 
> Those who live off of their Select borrows will find themselves going broke either way. Also, once this system gets popular, it heavily tips the board against any books not in Select. It also may spell a serious loss of current market share for such outfits as Smashwords and Kobo. I imagine it will hurt Apple and B&N, but they already have their own reader bases, where Smashwords and Kobo are somewhat generic. It may put ScribD and similar completely out of business since Kindle Unlimited is a carbon copy of their service, but with a vastly superior amount of content for about the same price and Amazon familiarity and consumer trust.


----------



## KOwrites

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> And yet, Mark is still the only person who knows whether Scribd and Oyster are doing well or poorly. That one-axis chart tells us nothing except movement is up month over month. But that could mean moving from 1 unit in February to 2 in March or moving from 1 million units in Feb to 2 million in March.
> 
> Nor does it break anything down about which authors and which books are moving. Is it the Top 1% of SW authors accounting for 95% of the movement?
> 
> A line in space without context means nothing.
> 
> The question for me now is how are the other venues like iBooks, BN, Kobo and Google Play going to compete? Will they come up with ways to lure indie authors to them? Will they create their own subscription services?
> 
> We don't know what's going to happen, but here's what I saw on Amazon.com on Friday: Sales volume in the Top 1000 spots was up and highly competitive. We had a title with 148 sales that achieved a best rank for the day of #1140, when typically it would have seen a rank in the #800s. IF volume continues like that in the top tier ranks, solid midlist books and better sellers not in KU will see a lessening of visibility and a quicker decline. Even if this is a short-lived event (say 30 days), some of those books may be hard-pressed to recover. Authors will need to 1) look at ways to boost flagging sales on Amazon, or 2) look at ways to boost sales via other venues.
> 
> But how do you boost sales in other stores?
> 
> Midlist+ authors looking at flagging sales on Amazon coupled with flat sales at other venues will be tempted to go into Select to recover. This is an opportunity for other venues to counter the lure of Select.
> 
> Amazon has made its play for good or ill. The onus is now on its competitors to step up their games. I've seen iBooks, Kobo and Google Play recently courting midlist+ indies to try to grow their indie author business. Even BN has thrown together the occasional promo that benefits indies as much as trads. Kobo's promo tools can at least be planned for (though better communication around what titles will be chosen would benefit everyone). iBooks and BN, though, are at "editorial discretion" and often can't be anticipated. And I'm still waiting to see what Google Play may offer to those it's tapped.
> 
> Amazon has thrown down the gauntlet. It's now up to its competitors to become more aggressive in offering up visibility/discoverability tools and benefits to those indies they want in their stores. Otherwise, Amazon's flowers and chocolates and promises of higher visibility will indeed woo me right back.


YES. On all points, Phoenix. Except the wooing. I don't feel wooed by the Zon. I feel like I have to make some business decisions and take all the emotions out of it, including considerations for readers on Nook, Kobo, and iPad_ like completely out of it_. The facts are: 95% of my revenues come from Amazon. The only time I get a lift (visibility) & significant sales on other platforms is when I _pay_ for it. And in an earlier post, I talked about Bookbub's stats being a non-factor from the KU intro. Watching those ranks, I know I might be right about that.

Additionally, my sales ranks on Amazon are off by a good 10,000 with my best seller and my weekend sales usually trend up better than this. Not this weekend.

And I think you're exactly right. A month out may not be soon enough--in terms of making a move or waiting to make one--to recover. And placing any faith in B&N or even Apple in doing something marketing advancement wise for an indie author like me is probably just wishful thinking.


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> And yet, Mark is still the only person who knows whether Scribd and Oyster are doing well or poorly.


The fact that Amazon has launched Kindle Unlimited is an indication that the sub services are doing better than they expected. And for something as big as this, I'd expect some sort of official event for the announcement. Instead, we got a brief test run then they flipped the 'ON" switch. It feels like KU is rushed, as if Amazon was forced into releasing it earlier than they wanted or they slapped it together in a hurry. Of course, that could be my indie paranoia/dreamin'


----------



## CarlSinclair

A lot of negative reactions here. Not sure why change is so scary for people. 

How about we wait and see what happens? I for one think it's great as a reader and anything that is great for readers means more books being sold. Everything else will work itself out in the end.

Amazon is not out to screw you.


----------



## MJWare

I've come to the conclusion that long term, there's just not enough money in a $10 a month subscription:
First, Amazon is putting money into the same pool as the KOLL pot. What they should be doing is putting say, 65% of every subscription get put into the pot and then divide that up.

Second, how many books will members read a month? I mean, how many will they at least sample of 10% when they get "all-you-can-eat" Ever been to a buffet?
After overhead and profit, Amazon will maybe have $7 (probably less) out of that $10 to divide among both The Big publishers and us indies.
I don't see any way, long term the payout could be over $1 each read--the math just doesn't support a higher payout.


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## Colin

CarlSinclair said:


> Not sure why change is so scary for people...
> 
> ...Amazon is not out to screw you.


No. They're out to screw the competition. Once that objective is achieved, they will look for another way to maximize returns.

No prizes for guessing what that might be....


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## Lady Vine

CarlSinclair said:


> A lot of negative reactions here. Not sure why change is so scary for people.
> 
> How about we wait and see what happens? I for one think it's great as a reader and anything that is great for readers means more books being sold. Everything else will work itself out in the end.
> 
> Amazon is not out to screw you.


I waited, thinking this wouldn't affect me. And then I looked at my sales graph... Amazon's intention might not be to screw us, but they're doing it inadvertently. If you're not in Select, your sales will suffer because your rank will suffer. That's not speculation, that's actually happening.

And for the record, I do think giving the borrows equal weighting as sales was designed to force non-Select authors' hands. It's an all or nothing push.


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## Guest

MJAWare said:


> I've come to the conclusion that long term, there's just not enough money in a $10 a month subscription:


I agree. Amazon is not after Scribd and Oyster. They are after the 10 billion dollar library industry, the 170 million library patrons, who are now not able to read your books because libraries do not allow indie written books in libraries.


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## Guest

Lady Vine said:


> I waited, thinking this wouldn't affect me. And then I looked at my sales graph... If you're not in Select, your sales will suffer because your rank will suffer. That's not speculation, that's actually happening.
> 
> It's an all or nothing push.


You described what is happening. How will you respond to this huge new opportunity to be read by 170 million new readers? Will you do what's good for you and all indies by joining Select and growing Kindle unlimited for all our sakes? After all right now you are banned from the libraries anyway. So those 170 million "old library" patrons are not reading your books anyway.


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## Vaalingrade

Literally every single person who uses public libraries is going to pay Amazon $120 a year for Kindle Unlimited.

What color is the sky in your universe?


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## CraigInOregon

Just a note of rational thought here on the amount added to KDP for July being $800,000 instead of doubling the amount.

Keep in mind, please, that Amazon announced Kindle Unlimited slightly over halfway through July.

Earlier in the month, when KOLL borrows were the only thing being rung up, the fund was at $1.2M. Now it's at $2M. Right?

So, it was only possible to start accumulating KU credits or borrows AFTER July 15. If they'd wanted to fund KU equally to KOLL, Amazon would have added only $600,000 to the fund for the second half of July, bringing the total to $1.8M. Instead, they added $800,000, or one-third more than $600,000, to bring it to $2M for July. Even though you couldn't accumulate a KU credit prior to July 16th or so...

So, what that tells me is that they expect KU to be popular initially, among those who activate it. Perhaps significantly more popular than the KOLL "one free borrow per month" feature. So they are, at minimum, overfunding July in anticipation of a lot of borrows, initially, as new subscribers sign up and test out the KU service.

So, rather than being underfundered, they are experimenting with slightly overfunding it as they use the second half of July as an experiment to gauge the demand for, use of, and popularity of the new service.

The key here will be how they fund August and, more importantly, September.

Why?

Because... I don't think two weeks in July is going to give them enough data, so I anticipate they'll cautiously overfund August, as well. It will be funded at $2M at minimum, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it grow to as much as $2.5M. Because they'll want to keep authors happy as they experiment around with KU.

Ultimately, I'm thinking the fund will settle down to $2M or lower, not because they want to mess over authors, or make a borrow less valuable, but because they'll have more data to go off.

If KU becomes popular, they'll fund it sufficiently to their metric of keeping the payout of a borrow around $2.

Yet there's also the possibility that KU may make KOLL something fewer people will use, and the use of that feature in Prime could decline as frequent readers sign up for KU instead.

Hard to say, and it's an experiment... but I feel confident, given their history of trying to keep the KOLL fund paying out at around $2/borrow (give or take a few cents), that that's where Amazon will eventually settle the funding.

And imagine: A $2.99 ebook purchased is $2.07 or so as a royalty.

If someone borrows your book under KU, and they only read 10 percent of it and then unborrow it, you still get paid around $2... almost the same as a purchase of a $2.99 book.

And a $0.99 title gets the same $2/borrow payout, far more than the $0.35 royalty for a purchase.

It's intriguing.

Certainly, those who set their prices much higher will feel short-changed, but they probably already do based off KOLL borrows, anyway. So not much changes there. And no one forces anyone to opt-in to KDP Select anyway. But it adds another reason to sign up for it, at least for a while, and adds another way to get paid while in there.

One odd thing: has anyone else seen the new "in beta" feature, on the second page of KDP when you're adding a new book or making changes to an existing book, that is supposed to help you select the right price for your book?

What do people think of it so far?

I took a look at all my books in it and felt slightly disappointed in it.

Here's why:

For EVERY SINGLE TITLE I have, it recommended I set them ALL at $2.99 under the 70% option.

Long novels, novellas, even short stories at around 5K in length. According to the feature, EVERYTHING should be priced at $2.99.

I'm sorry, but I think it's VERY beta-status right now as a feature, because there's no way I'd want to charge $2.99 for a 5K short story. That's a $0.99er, IMHO...


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## Guest

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> And for something as big as this, I'd expect some sort of official event for the announcement.


Maybe there will be an event. Maybe in October, just before the Christmas buying season. Maybe Jeff Bezos will announce the new Kindle: for $29,99, including a three month subscription to Kindle Unlimited for free. How many of the 170 million library patrons who right now have no access to indie books, because libraries banned us, will be reading indie books after Christmas?

Keep writing! Keep promoting Kindle Unlimited! Put your books into Select. Chances are after Christmas most of us here on Kboards will be making a living as writers. After all those years our dreams will come true after all! This is the opportunity you've been waiting for all your life. Make it happen!

BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES!!!


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## Lady Vine

drno said:


> You described what is happening. How will you respond to this huge new opportunity to be read by 170 million new readers? Will you do what's good for you and all indies by joining Select and growing Kindle unlimited for all our sakes? After all right now you are banned from the libraries anyway. So those 170 million "old library" patrons are not reading your books anyway.


I fail to see how joining Select is good for all our sakes, though it might be for yours... if you like monopolies. Please tell me what you think the landscape will look like when there's no more competition? Do you think you're still going to get $2 a borrow? And how many people want to accept $2 on books that are priced over $2.99? Heck, you don't even know if you'll get $2 now! You ought to wait and see what you get per borrow before you start advocating that we all join.

Not sure what the library's got to do with any of this. I don't care about libraries if they're not stocking my books.


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## 75814

drno said:


> You described what is happening. How will you respond to this huge new opportunity to be read by 170 million new readers? Will you do what's good for you and all indies by joining Select and growing Kindle unlimited for all our sakes? After all right now you are banned from the libraries anyway. So those 170 million "old library" patrons are not reading your books anyway.


Just because you keep saying that all 170 million library users will sign up for Kindle Unlimited doesn't make it true. Just because you repeat "BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES" like a parrot doesn't make it so.

There are 170 million library users. Do you know how many of them have to pay a monthly subscription to read books? 0. Do you think the only thing stopping those 170 million users from flocking to Amazon is the fact that Amazon hasn't offered to charge them a monthly fee for something they already get to do free of charge? Do you think people who are suffering from economic hardship are going to ditch the libraries to pay Amazon? Do you think that people who despise e-readers and prefer print books are suddenly going to change their mind?

Your logic of "there are 170 million library users, therefore KU will have 170 million users" doesn't make a single bit of sense. If it did, then how come those people haven't signed up for Scribd or Oyster?

More than that, let's say for a minute that you're right and all 170 million library users, without fail, will join KU. According to their site, KU currently lists over 600,000 books. How are you going to get 170 million users to read your book? And remember, price is no longer a factor, so you can't count on pricing promotions.



Lady Vine said:


> I fail to see how joining Select is good for all our sakes, though it might be for yours... if you like monopolies. Please tell me what you think the landscape will look like when there's no more competition? Do you think you're still going to get $2 a borrow? And how many people want to accept $2 on books that are priced over $2.99? Heck, you don't even know if you'll get $2 now! You ought to wait and see what you get per borrow before you start advocating that we all join.
> 
> Not sure what the library's got to do with any of this. I don't care about libraries if they're not stocking my books.


And with KU, even now you're not getting $2 per borrow.


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## CraigInOregon

BTW, my current choice has been, when I have a new release, to place it in Select for one or two 90-day periods anyway, then proliferate the title out to other channels.

I find that even before this KU initiative, Select was a handy marketing tool for that 90 to 180 day launch window.

I doubt this will change my pattern to be less inclined toward Select.

But I'm also not sure it'd prevent me from eventually taking them out and "going wide," either.

For me, all it does is potentially add some value to what I'm already doing.

That said, I have considered that for short works, I might experiment around with keeping a title in KDP Select for a year or even permanently, just to compare it to how other books that I go wide with do.

I want to see if it does better remaining Amazon-exclusive for a year or longer, or worse because it's not out there in other markets.

Just some ideas I'm playing around with. I experiment, I see what works, and then modify my approach and experiment again.


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## starkllr

CarlSinclair said:


> A lot of negative reactions here. Not sure why change is so scary for people.
> 
> How about we wait and see what happens? I for one think it's great as a reader and anything that is great for readers means more books being sold. Everything else will work itself out in the end.
> 
> Amazon is not out to screw you.


Change scares the heck out of me because I am not nearly as agile and adaptable and marketing-savvy as most of the posters here. I've been doing this for 18 months, and I barely have a handle on the strategies that have been mastered by the successful authors here...and now what little I have learned has been turned upside-down with no warning. Pardon me if I don't jump for joy.

And, yeah, I agree, Amazon is not out to screw us. Amazon is out to do whatever is best for Amazon, based on whatever metrics are most important to its management. Except to the extent that their data tells them that our satisfaction with their terms impacts those metrics, Amazon doesn't care one bit if we get rich, or if we get completely screwed, by any decisions it makes.


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## bardeh

A major thing that lots seem to be missing here is the fact that Amazon are offering a month-long free trial of the service to all their US customers. I'd expect this to heavily dilute the individual payouts for a read, but, obviously, inflate the numbers of those reads. For those with good visibility, I imagine that this will lead to more money than they were earning from borrows previously. For those whose borrows/reads don't appreciably increase with the service, they'll be effectively losing money.


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## Mark E. Cooper

So, I just read on Hugh Howey's blog that Amazon didn't include any of it Kindle Worlds books in KU. Here is a bit of paranoia for you... they kept them out because they want to make money not give their stuff away  Maybe they figured there isn't any profit for them in lending or KU


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## FictionalWriter

Mark E. Cooper said:


> So, I just read on Hugh Howey's blog that Amazon didn't include any of it Kindle Worlds books in KU. Here is a bit of paranoia for you... they kept them out because they want to make money not give their stuff away  Maybe they figured there isn't any profit for them in lending or KU


I noticed that too...

Obviously, this is a money-losing situation for Amazon for, at the very least, the first month but probably for a lot longer than that when you consider the majority of readers will borrow the big name books they are paying a jewel and a crown to have in the program.

I have Prime and my problem with borrowing from their lending library was I wasn't finding even a book a month I wanted to check out. It will be interesting to see if readers will stay on at $10/month.


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## Quiss

drno said:


> Will you do what's good for you and all indies by joining Select and growing Kindle unlimited for all our sakes?


Dude, is someone paying you to come up stuff like this?
Right now nobody knows "what's good" for all indies. Nobody knows what the payout in August will look like. 
Right now, people's sales are crashing.
Right now, people are rushing to dump any old thing from their bottom drawer into Select, thinking that'll reap them instant and bazillions of downloads. They're growing Kindle Unlimited all right. I'm sure with stuff that'll make the readers really happy. Someone even mentioned posting ROUGH draft chapters one at a time. Seriously?
Right now, ranks are racing to the bottom for all but the top sellers and may take the likes of BookBub to recover


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## books_mb

bardeh said:


> A major thing that lots seem to be missing here is the fact that Amazon are offering a month-long free trial of the service to all their US customers. I'd expect this to heavily dilute the individual payouts for a read, but, obviously, inflate the numbers of those reads. For those with good visibility, I imagine that this will lead to more money than they were earning from borrows previously. For those whose borrows/reads don't appreciably increase with the service, they'll be effectively losing money.


I think this is correct. 2 $ per borrow is a pipe dream ... really can't see how Amazon could afford to keep this, especially with the special treatment they are giving to trad pub authors. I expect that this number will go down and at the same time volume will go up. Visibility is king, so at least this aspect didn't change.


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## Usedtopostheretoo!

Mark E. Cooper said:


> So, I just read on Hugh Howey's blog that Amazon didn't include any of it Kindle Worlds books in KU. Here is a bit of paranoia for you... they kept them out because they want to make money not give their stuff away  Maybe they figured there isn't any profit for them in lending or KU


They don't include KW books in KOLL, so it's not a surprise. I hate speculating, but I'd bet the reason has something to do with the average price of a KW offering. $1.99. They'd also have to split the loan payout amount between the author and the KW author. Most of the KW authors (if not all) are big names or Amazon imprint authors, so the payout share equation would get even more complicated.


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## SB James

I do not know if this issue has been addressed (and one would think with over 35 pages of discussion, it might have been, but I can't go through all those pages, I'm sorry). If what some people here are saying is correct, then my payout for a borrow is anywhere between $1 to $2 and change. I have a Countdown deal going on right now. Someone borrowed the book instead of buying it, so I presumably made more money on the borrow than I did if they had bought it (since my sale price is 99 cents right now, and with the Countdown rate I think I'm making about 65 cents for the book while it's priced at 99 cents). This event got me thinking...
1) If enough readers subscribe to Kindle Unlimited, does this make the Countdown deal, and even the free days, if not completely useless, at least somewhat diluted?
2) What would having a large number of voracious readers (ie, the kind or people who subscribe to the Bookbub email newsletter and others) affect anyone who is using Amazon Affiliates to generate some income? After all, if, say, my borrowing reader came to my book by way of my ebook soda ad, and chose to borrow my book rather than buy it, does ebook soda make their small commission from Amazon? (This is presuming that the email newsletter actually gets any Amazon Affiliates income, they may not.) Would KU perhaps change the role of the email newsletters in the future, since many times (though of course not all) people are using Bookbub to advertise their KDP Select promotions?
Just questions I'm not certain anyone thought about. FWIW, I'm not sure how many people are going to subscribe to KU after the free trial runs out.


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## SB James

Steven Konkoly said:


> They don't include KW books in KOLL, so it's not a surprise. I hate speculating, but I'd bet the reason has something to do with the average price of a KW offering. $1.99. They'd also have to split the loan payout amount between the author and the KW author. Most of the KW authors (if not all) are big names or Amazon imprint authors, so the payout share equation would get even more complicated.


Ah, so my "master plan" of releasing KW fan-fiction-net-style serialized chapters won't work, eh?


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## Justawriter

Okay, I just joined the free trial to check it out. I have mixed feelings about this, especially now that I've seen what's available. 

Here's a few thoughts...

It's too early to really tell how this will shake out and if it will be a good thing or not. 

I tend to lean towards optimism and figure that Amazon has researched this carefully and must have taken into consideration lost sales as they roll this out.

However, as I looked through all the available books, I started feeling less optimistic.

A few what if scenarios immediately came to mind,

There's a TON of free books in there, from both traditional and indies. Even heavy readers like me that spend a ton at Amazon could significantly spend less and read more. 

This could spark a new perception with readers to expect to read all the books of their favorite authors for free. I'll use Hugh and Rosalind as examples. With all their books in Select, once a reader discovers them, they can read ALL of their books for free, and have a continuing expectation to not pay for those books. 

This is the big one that makes me nervous......this could be a disruption in reading habits....where readers could now shift their attention to what's in KU and discover new authors there, and go on to read all of their books....for free.

It's inevitable that less money will be paid on books. I think. 

It's also inevitable that the $2 per read will go down as the volume of books and reads in KU goes up. It's not sustainable that Amazon will continue at that level. I don't think. I could be wrong. But, as more readers sign up for this, I do think it's inevitable.

I'd love to know Amazon's strategy with this. I know they are okay with losing money to make money in the long-term, but if they are only charging 9.99 and paying $2 for each read, I don't see how they win. Unless they are counting on a larger number of people only reading a book or two a month?

I'm not panicking, not yet, as it's too soon to see how this will go, but I am wondering how this will benefit authors. I see how it will benefit readers. But, having authors pull all their books off other channels to go all-in with Amazon worries me. I don't want to see other platforms weakened. Competition for Amazon is good for authors and good for readers to be able to buy books on their platform of choice.


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## Mark E. Cooper

PamelaKelley said:


> Okay, I just joined the free trial to check it out. I have mixed feelings about this, especially now that I've seen what's available.
> 
> Here's a few thoughts...
> 
> It's too early to really tell how this will shake out and if it will be a good thing or not.
> 
> I tend to lean towards optimism and figure that Amazon has researched this carefully and must have taken into consideration lost sales as they roll this out.
> 
> However, as I looked through all the available books, I started feeling less optimistic.
> 
> A few what if scenarios immediately came to mind,
> 
> There's a TON of free books in there, from both traditional and indies. Even heavy readers like me that spend a ton at Amazon could significantly spend less and read more.
> 
> This could spark a new perception with readers to expect to read all the books of their favorite authors for free. I'll use Hugh and Rosalind as examples. With all their books in Select, once a reader discovers them, they can read ALL of their books for free, and have a continuing expectation to not pay for those books.
> 
> This is the big one that makes me nervous......this could be a disruption in reading habits....where readers could now shift their attention to what's in KU and discover new authors there, and go on to read all of their books....for free.
> 
> It's inevitable that less money will be paid on books. I think.
> 
> It's also inevitable that the $2 per read will go down as the volume of books and reads in KU goes up. It's not sustainable that Amazon will continue at that level. I don't think. I could be wrong. But, as more readers sign up for this, I do think it's inevitable.
> 
> I'd love to know Amazon's strategy with this. I know they are okay with losing money to make money in the long-term, but if they are only charging 9.99 and paying $2 for each read, I don't see how they win. Unless they are counting on a larger number of people only reading a book or two a month?
> 
> I'm not panicking, not yet, as it's too soon to see how this will go, but I am wondering how this will benefit authors. I see how it will benefit readers. But, having authors pull all their books off other channels to go all-in with Amazon worries me. I don't want to see other platforms weakened. Competition for Amazon is good for authors and good for readers to be able to buy books on their platform of choice.


They'll be out of luck with my books. All they'll get is my carefully chosen funnel book


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinePope said:


> I saw it on all of them. Maybe it's not showing up for you because you're not in the U.S.?


Thanks. They are now all showing with the logo. I guess I must practise patience


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## Chrisbwritin

After two days of hunkering down and reading everything about this I could get my hands on, and then processing it all and realizing no one was going to definitively tell me what the f&%* I should do, I've finally made a decision. Ish. And here it is:

I'ma take one pen name and put it on Select/KU (which is, incidentally, taking far longer than it should because although I've delisted the books through D2d, BN is slowwwww to respond and hasn't taken them down yet and I'm feeling too guilty to contact my D2D rep and have them nudge because he's prolly prettttty busy dealing with his own personal meltdown, but I digress). I'm going to leave it for 90 days and wait and see. I considered just sitting back for a few months and watching how it all panned out, but my gut is telling me that, if there ever was a time to try it, it's now. Here's why:

Amazon is funding this for 30 days because the ONLY way this idea floats is if they get content. If a reader looks for an author they like, or quality, well-reviewed books in their preferred genre, and is consistently disappointed because they can't find that author or those books, they will won't stay with KU beyond the 30 day free trial. Amazon is essentially betting on themselves that, within 30 days, they can get enough authors to come on board, and they are betting a LOT. Not just the 2 mil they're funding this month with, but also with the MILLIONS that they're paying to trad. and top tier indie breakout stars who haven't signed up. Every time Hugh Howey gets a borrow, Amazon takes a hit right now. Multiply that exponentially because, let's face it, Hugh gets a lot more than one borrow a day, and there are at least a few dozen Hughs (not to mention a Rowling, a Tolkien, etc. in the mix) and I'm guessing this gamble is costing them upwards of 20 million dollars. The last thing they're going to want to do is get cheap on roy distribution day and pay the KU pool authors .60 a book or something in order to save another 2 mil $. Using a poker analogy for those who play, it just doesn't make any sense to put 27 mil chips in the pot on the flop and the turn and then fold for a 2 mil bet on the river. In fact, if ever there was a time for a major good faith move on their part, it's now. When everyone is still trying to decide whether they're in or out. If Amazon doesn't make it at least a semi-sweet deal for this first wave of authors signing on, they're going to lose them AND any of the other authors who were sitting back and waiting for recon from the front line. They can't afford to do that because, again, the entire program depends on a butt ton of varying, quality content. Without it, KU is dead in the water.

Because of that line of thinking, I'm going to be on the front line, but I'm not all in. I'm keeping my other pen name in a wait and see holding pattern just in case it all sh%*s the bed. Because I'm cautious like that 

I'm not trying to sway anyone else, I'm just throwing my strategy out there into the mix. This isn't without risk. It's costing me a minimum of about $2000 (which would be the average sales for all titles under that pen name at all other vendors over the course of the 90 day exclusivity commitment) so it's definitely something I've had to really think about, but I feel like it's a calculated risk and one I feel I can afford to take in this case. 

Good luck to everyone, whatever you choose to do. Going to be an interesting few months!


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## Michael_J_Sullivan

Will the 2,773 books in KU that are free get an even share of the KOLL pool if someone downloads/reads it to 10%?  Does anyone know?


----------



## Rykymus

I still think Amazon's primary goal is to squash Scribd, Oyster, and the like before they get any traction.  

I read about a book a month, at best. And they're usually indies which are priced under $10. I'm not going to pay $10 per month so that I can read one $3 book per month. I suspect that others won't either.

Amazon can afford to lose millions in order to squash the subscription services. New startups like Scribd and Oyster don't have the money and resources to fight.

Amazon has always been ahead of the game. I'm pretty sure that if they thought a subscription service was more profitable than outright selling of books, they'd have started one long ago.

As others have said, Amazon isn't out to screw us, but they also don't care if we suffer, so long as we don't pull our books from Select and kill their library.

I will leave my titles in, until it is clear what the effects of either move might be. Meanwhile, my prediction is that once Scribd and Oyster are out of business, KU will disappear.

To be honest, I have never wanted to see book subscription services succeed. Nor do I want my books in libraries. I expect to be paid for my work, and a good customer has no problem with that.


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## bardeh

Now they've introduced Unlimited, it won't be going anywhere. Not for a long time, if ever.


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## KOwrites

@PamelaKelly - Yes, this IS a disruption in reading habits. How do I know? I joined to see what Amazon presents to the reader. Books in KU come up with an extra button on the right for KU to purchase/borrow, but more importantly/disturbingly the word F R E E in red is right under the price for those books in KU. This is a mindset of expectation that is being programmed into readers. F R E E is good, says Michael Douglas. And yes, this is a game changer for how readers on Amazon decide to buy or borrow a book or pay for a book called F R E E on their screen. There's no reminder that this is part of your $9.99 a month charge.

And let's talk about what I actually pay Amazon for a minute. I've been a Prime customer, for years, for the shipping alone which they've messed with over time. It used to be that there was one shipping charge that covered all purchases made on your order. Now, if they split the order up, they charge $3.99 for each box shipped within the order. It's a subtle change. $3.99 here. $3.99 there. Just know, it used to be different--ONE shipping fee--and it cost a lot less. They raised the rates of Prime. What last fall? Meh. The borrow a month? I think I've used it twice since they introduced it. They still get their annual fee from me and I'm fine with that.

I buy all my books and I buy plenty. But now as a reader and a Prime customer, I have to weigh out that I am spending $99 a year for Prime AS WELL AS $119.88 a year for books. That's $218.88 I give to Amazon each year. Now, I really have to think about that before this trial ends.

@drno The libraries here are always full of people using the computers--full tables of people on the computers at the library. They're looking for jobs for the most part. It's been that way for years. The shelves are still full of traditional books. And libraries buy their books, you know, from the publishers. And they're still funded. I don't buy your argument that those readers are going to come calling at Amazon for their books. I'd also like to see your books in your signature line so I know from whence you come from. Are you in the game or not?

Amazon is a business. I am not sure that all their programs even within the Kindle group work together. (I live in Seattle so I am aware how they conduct business and how they treat employees as it were.) Thus, we get a beta service that tells me to price my best seller at $9.99 and the others all at $6.99; and then we get the rollout of KU _in the middle of the month_. A program which basically eliminates _price _as a factor altogether. This _will_ impact B&N, Apple, and Kobo. It will cause indie authors like me who have been running on all platforms, (_directly_) I might add, to re-evaluate what works. And it isn't a matter of enticing me to come back into the fold and be exclusive; it's a matter of survival, relevance, visibility, viability. It changes everything. I'm already seeing a sales impact (downward) as well as an upward trend in ranking. That's important because I'm advertising daily; and I'm still sinking. This will affect Bookbub advertising and all the others. Amazon has the helm. You dig? They just changed course in a huge way and it affects us all that play.

So please, all of you who are denigrating those saying the sky is falling, pay attention instead. There is a lot of experienced legacy within these ranks and maybe you haven't been here for all of that, so listen up.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Katherine Owen said:


> It used to be that there was one shipping charge that covered all purchases made on your order. Now, if they split the order up, they charge $3.99 for each box shipped within the order.


Weird They've split up plenty of my orders, but there's never been any extra charge.


----------



## KOwrites

SevenDays said:


> Weird They've split up plenty of my orders, but there's never been any extra charge.


They literally used to eat the costs for the orders they split up. They don't do that anymore. I order six things. If it splits into three orders, I have to pay $3.99 or however I choose to ship it (1 day, 2 day etc...) separately by split order. It didn't used to be that way. It used to one shipping charge no matter how many shipments it split into. Carry on.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Katherine Owen said:


> They literally used to eat the costs for the orders they split up. They don't do that anymore. I order six things. If it splits into three orders, I have to pay $3.99 or however I choose to ship it (1 day, 2 day etc...) separately by split order. It didn't used to be that way. It used to one shipping charge no matter how many shipments it split into. Carry on.


D*mn, that sucks. I wonder why they're not doing it across the board?

As for the KU thing: I'm undecided. I'm going to wait to see if the sky does indeed fall before I start panicking.


----------



## Deborahsmith author

drno said:


> I agree. Amazon is not after Scribd and Oyster. They are after the 10 billion dollar library industry, the 170 million library patrons, who are now not able to read your books because libraries do not allow indie written books in libraries.


Keep in mind that Bezos has always used books to get customers through the doors for other reasons. This is not about selling books, this is about luring more customers who'll buy bigger-ticket items. He'll throw books under the bus (and has already been doing that for years, price-wise) to gain customer loyalty for his bigger picture. That's why authors and publishers should always keep in mind that our primary value is as bait. KU's main function is to tighten the bond between customers and their Zon world.


----------



## Lady Vine

Katherine Owen said:


> @PamelaKelly - Yes, this IS a disruption in reading habits. How do I know? I joined to see what Amazon presents to the reader. Books in KU come up with an extra button on the right for KU to purchase/borrow, but more importantly/disturbingly the word F R E E in red is right under the price for those books in KU. This is a mindset of expectation that is being programmed into readers. F R E E is good, says Michael Douglas. And yes, this is a game changer for how readers on Amazon decide to buy or borrow a book or pay for a book called F R E E on their screen. There's no reminder that this is part of your $9.99 a month charge.
> 
> And let's talk about what I actually pay Amazon for a minute. I've been a Prime customer, for years, for the shipping alone which they've messed with over time. It used to be that there was one shipping charge that covered all purchases made on your order. Now, if they split the order up, they charge $3.99 for each box shipped within the order. It's a subtle change. $3.99 here. $3.99 there. Just know, it used to be different--ONE shipping fee--and it cost a lot less. They raised the rates of Prime. What last fall? Meh. The borrow a month? I think I've used it twice since they introduced it. They still get their annual fee from me and I'm fine with that.
> 
> I buy all my books and I buy plenty. But now as a reader and a Prime customer, I have to weigh out that I am spending $99 a year for Prime AS WELL AS $119.88 a year for books. That's $218.88 I give to Amazon each year. Now, I really have to think about that before this trial ends.
> 
> @drno The libraries here are always full of people using the computers--full tables of people on the computers at the library. They're looking for jobs for the most part. It's been that way for years. The shelves are still full of traditional books. And libraries buy their books, you know, from the publishers. And they're still funded. I don't buy your argument that those readers are going to come calling at Amazon for their books. I'd also like to see your books in your signature line so I know from whence you come from. Are you in the game or not?
> 
> Amazon is a business. I am not sure that all their programs even within the Kindle group work together. (I live in Seattle so I am aware how they conduct business and how they treat employees as it were.) Thus, we get a beta service that tells me to price my best seller at $9.99 and the others all at $6.99; and then we get the rollout of KU _in the middle of the month_. A program which basically eliminates _price _as a factor altogether. This _will_ impact B&N, Apple, and Kobo. It will cause indie authors like me who have been running on all platforms, (_directly_) I might add, to re-evaluate what works. And it isn't a matter of enticing me to come back into the fold and be exclusive; it's a matter of survival, relevance, visibility, viability. It changes everything. I'm already seeing a sales impact (downward) as well as an upward trend in ranking. That's important because I'm advertising daily; and I'm still sinking. This will affect Bookbub advertising and all the others. Amazon has the helm. You dig? They just changed course in a huge way and it affects us all that play.
> 
> So please, all of you who are denigrating those saying the sky is falling, pay attention instead. There is a lot of experienced legacy within these ranks and maybe you haven't been here for all of that, so listen up.


Thank you. For a minute there I thought I was the only one getting pee'd off with this nonchalance. Not everything is a false alarm.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Katherine Owen said:


> And let's talk about what I actually pay Amazon for a minute. I've been a Prime customer, for years, for the shipping alone which they've messed with over time. It used to be that there was one shipping charge that covered all purchases made on your order. Now, if they split the order up, they charge $3.99 for each box shipped within the order. It's a subtle change. $3.99 here. $3.99 there. Just know, it used to be different--ONE shipping fee--and it cost a lot less. They raised the rates of Prime. What last fall? Meh. The borrow a month? I think I've used it twice since they introduced it. They still get their annual fee from me and I'm fine with that.


I'm a little confused--I get free 2-day shipping with Prime; I only pay $3.99 if I want to get expedited shipping?

And Prime also includes free streaming videos (and downloadable free videos on your Fire) as well as streaming music as part of your Prime subscription. Obviously, those aren't benefits for everyone. I don't use the free borrow much, but am happy with my Prime benefit for the free shipping alone. I don't want to derail the discussion; just wanted to clarify some things for those not familiar with Prime.

KU interests me for the audiobook portion; I may cancel my Audible subscription and keep only KU. It'll save me money in the long run. And I'll keep buying books that interest me.

I appreciate that this is a big move by Amazon that will have a lot of impact for authors. EDIT: I think some of what is being expressed is not nonchalance, but that there are assumptions made by some with out much data. And I agree that Amazon could better inform its customers. This has left a lot of questions for readers, too.

Betsy


----------



## KOwrites

Lady Vine said:


> Thank you. For a minute there I thought I was the only one getting pee'd off with this nonchalance. Not everything is a false alarm.


Thanks.

I have a Bookbub ad in August. I'm thinking of cancelling it because it isn't a false alarm. My returns number is edging up. I always have a few. The nature of the NA reader, but I'm watching it to see if KU is having a direct affect effect on that as well.

_OKAY_ on the Prime front, let me clarify. It used to be that as a Prime customers you paid one awesome fee for shipping. One. It wasn't caveated with third-party items. I paid one awesome fee and they miraculously sent me everything regardless of how many shipments it came in and the mighty Zon ate the cost. Now, they don't do that anymore. If they split up a single order, I pay Prime shipping for Prime items and I pay various shipping fees for all the rest regardless of how I ordered it. Believe me, they used to eat those shipping costs. It was years ago. It was awesome and then they changed it without telling their Prime customers that it had changed. It just changed.


----------



## Colin




----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm a little confused--I get free 2-day shipping with Prime; I only pay $3.99 if I want to get expedited shipping?
> 
> And Prime also includes free streaming videos (and downloadable free videos on your Fire) as well as streaming music as part of your Prime subscription. Obviously, those aren't benefits for everyone. I don't use the free borrow much, but am happy with my Prime benefit for the free shipping alone. I don't want to derail the discussion; just wanted to clarify some things for those not familiar with Prime.
> 
> KU interests me for the audiobook portion; I may cancel my Audible subscription and keep only KU. It'll save me money in the long run. And I'll keep buying books that interest me.
> 
> I appreciate that this is a big move by Amazon that will have a lot of impact for authors. EDIT: I think some of what is being expressed is not nonchalance, but that there are assumptions made by some with out much data. And I agree that Amazon could better inform its customers. This has left a lot of questions for readers, too.
> 
> Betsy


I definitely won't be ditching Audible for this. KU will only have audio that is whispersynced to a Select title. I have dozens of audio books in my audible library and very few are Select titles. I can't see myself suddenly being limited to KU audio. Audible is my main source of reading these days.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Katherine Owen said:


> _OKAY_ on the Prime front, let me clarify. It used to be that as a Prime customers you paid one awesome fee for shipping. One. It wasn't caveated with third-party items. I paid one awesome fee and they miraculously sent me everything regardless of how many shipments it came in and the mighty Zon ate the cost. Now, they don't do that anymore. If they split up a single order, I pay Prime shipping for Prime items and I pay various shipping fees for all the rest regardless of how I ordered it. Believe me, they used to eat those shipping costs. It was years ago. It was awesome and then they changed it without telling their Prime customers that it had changed. It just changed.


Thanks for the clarification. I seldom order anything except Prime items (I filter by Prime). I agree, they don't announce when they make changes to the system.

Betsy


----------



## Wansit

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I definitely won't be ditching Audible for this. KU will only have audio that is whispersynced to a Select title. I have dozens of audio books in my audible library and very few are Select titles. I can't see myself suddenly being limited to KU audio. Audible is my main source of reading these days.


I wish this wasn't the case and I'm also not happy that the even the KU whispersynced titles aren't readily visible. They're hard to find unless you're looking for a specific title or know it's there on the KU page + scroll all the way down. A scrolling audio title on the KU home page or an audio best-sellers list would do wonders.


----------



## EC

Okay - I'm a bit thick - what's the point of paying a subscription to read free content?  surely that's a glitch?


----------



## Redacted1111

I'm a bit confused about how to use the KU audiobooks. I seem to have an extra credit in audible, but I thought we got unlimited audiobooks that were enrolled in KU. Maybe I'm wrong?


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

EC said:


> Okay - I'm a bit thick - what's the point of paying a subscription to read free content? surely that's a glitch?


It's only free content if you have the subscription. It's paid content if you are not subscribed.

Betsy


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Kalypsō said:


> I'm a bit confused about how to use the KU audiobooks. I seem to have an extra credit in audible, but I thought we got unlimited audiobooks that were enrolled in KU. Maybe I'm wrong?


When you sign up for KU, you get a free three month subscription to Audible, one credit per month.

Outside Audible, you get access to many free audiobooks paired to KU books. If you download a KU book for free, you can also download the paired audiobook, which, in most cases but not all, will also be free.

We have a thread in Let's Talk Kindle discussing KU from the user's point of view.

Betsy


----------



## Quiss

Katherine Owen said:


> I have a Bookbub ad in August. I'm thinking of cancelling it because it isn't a false alarm. My returns number is edging up. I always have a few. The nature of the NA reader, but I'm watching it to see if KU is having a direct affect effect on that as well.


I can tell you that I was doing well riding the BookBub tail from a promo I had on the 6th. That tail has been chopped off now at Amazon, although things are still going well at the other vendors. Last time I had decent showings for over a month after BookBub before things evened out again.

Ah, going to close this window and stop reading. Time to go shopping. A little retail therapy cures all.


----------



## Redacted1111

Betsy the Quilter said:


> When you sign up for KU, you get a free three month subscription to Audible, one credit per month.
> 
> Outside Audible, you get access to many free audiobooks paired to KU books. If you download a KU book for free, you can also download the paired audiobook, which, in most cases but not all, will also be free.
> 
> We have a thread in Let's Talk Kindle discussing KU from the user's point of view.
> 
> Betsy


I see. You can get unlimited books with whispersync. Unfortunately, I have a regular e-ink reader so it looks like I don't have any devices that will work with the narration. I thought I could use it on my android phone, but no. Oh well.


----------



## KOwrites

Quiss said:


> I can tell you that I was doing well riding the BookBub tail from a promo I had on the 6th. That tail has been chopped off now at Amazon, although things are still going well at the other vendors. Last time I had decent showings for over a month after BookBub before things evened out again.
> 
> Ah, going to close this window and stop reading. Time to go shopping. A little retail therapy cures all.


Thanks for the insight, Quiss. Sorry to hear that though... and reaffirms what I'm thinking. One of the things.

There is this crazed part of me that would like to un-enroll all my books from other sites (B&N, Apple, Kobo for me), put them into KU, raise the prices to $9.99 and $6.99 as Amazon's beta pricing tool suggests, shut the computer down, turn the lights off, take a vacation, and go with the adage of just set it and forget it. In essence, just flush the last three years of data gathering, marketing, and promotion, and writing and instead just let go of the rope (the control) and watch the chips fall where they may. You all have no idea how good that all sounds. Because this whole self-involved writing/publishing business is _hard_. I have a novel, my fifth one, that I am working furiously toward finishing and publishing by mid-August. It's going to go to 100K in word count. But maybe I should just chop it all up into 20K parts, put them all into KU: and set it and forget it. Or, price it at $9.99 like Amazon will invariably tell me to, put the entire thing into KU, and set it and forget it. That's where my thoughts are going. And it feels crazy and out of control but maybe I was naive in thinking I could ever make this work on my own and maybe I just need to stop trying so hard and go all in with Amazon. They are the only ones who give me an author page and periodically suggest my own book to me in an email. They have the biggest presence and they are growing with each passing day. Maybe I can't be all things to all readers; well, I can't. So maybe it's time I grew up and stopped trying to be.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Katherine Owen said:


> They literally used to eat the costs for the orders they split up. They don't do that anymore. I order six things. If it splits into three orders, I have to pay $3.99 or however I choose to ship it (1 day, 2 day etc...) separately by split order. It didn't used to be that way. It used to one shipping charge no matter how many shipments it split into. Carry on.


That's not how it is for he. I ordered a bunch of stuff the other day and it was split into three shipments and it was free.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Kalypsō said:


> I see. You can get unlimited books with whispersync. Unfortunately, I have a regular e-ink reader so it looks like I don't have any devices that will work with the narration. I thought I could use it on my android phone, but no. Oh well.


You can use various apps on android for this. I believe there is an Audible app for Android.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

yodaoneforme said:


> That's not how it is for he. I ordered a bunch of stuff the other day and it was split into three shipments and it was free.


Your three items were all Prime eligable so were free. Sometimes only one is prime and the other two aren't. Back in the day, the separate boxes would have a single shipping charge regardless, but now they charge for each one.


----------



## KOwrites

Thank you, Mark E. Cooper! I was beginning to think I was the only one that remembered this. Whew... not crazy on that front, at least. _Win._


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Kalypsō said:


> I see. You can get unlimited books with whispersync. Unfortunately, I have a regular e-ink reader so it looks like I don't have any devices that will work with the narration. I thought I could use it on my android phone, but no. Oh well.


Sorry if I wasn't clear. The audiobooks that you can get through KU are ones that are paired with ebooks for Whispersync, but you don't actually have to use the Whispersync--you can just listen to the audiobook through the Audible app, as far as I know. I haven't joined the program yet.

Whispersync is the process where you can read the ebook for awhile and then switch to the audiobook, for example while you're in the car, then switch back to the ebook and just read.

I'd have to check, but you should be able to use it on your Android device since there's a Kindle App for Audiobooks and an Audible app for audiobooks, and people using the Kindle app can use the KU program. I plan on listening to the Audible books through my iPod Touch as that's what I use when I walk.

Betsy


----------



## Vaalingrade

Mark E. Cooper said:


> So, I just read on Hugh Howey's blog that Amazon didn't include any of it Kindle Worlds books in KU. Here is a bit of paranoia for you... they kept them out because they want to make money not give their stuff away  Maybe they figured there isn't any profit for them in lending or KU


Amazon doesn't actually have the rights to throw KW stuff around willy nilly like they do with Select. There's a lot of very specific contract stuff going into having a World added to KW and they would have to get permission from the copyright holder to toss those in KU.

And considering both author and copyright holder get a piece of the KW book sale... well we would have to invent a new word that means smaller than micropayments.


----------



## Rykymus

The sky isn't falling, it's just that a storm has set in. There will be damage, more to some than others, but everyone will experience some change. After the initial storm clears, we pick up the pieces and figure out how to make things work given the changes.

It has happened before. It shall happen again...and again...and again.

I have been all in since day one of Select. I shall remain all in until I have the facts...using data that I collect and not the hearsay and graphs of others.

I can tell you one thing, though. I have gone and marked in my calendar exactly when each of my Select enrollment periods expire, just in case.


----------



## Scott Reeves

Betsy the Quilter said:


> When you sign up for KU, you get a free three month subscription to Audible, one credit per month.
> 
> Outside Audible, you get access to many free audiobooks paired to KU books. If you download a KU book for free, you can also download the paired audiobook, which, in most cases but not all, will also be free.
> 
> We have a thread in Let's Talk Kindle discussing KU from the user's point of view.
> 
> Betsy


Are we sure about this? I don't think every Unlimited ebook (as long as it has an audiobook version) comes with the audiobook version included free.

Here is response I received directly from a KDP associate when I emailed them regarding audiobooks in Unlimited (I posted this earlier in this thread):



> I understand you have the audio edition of several of your books submitted through ACX and would like to have them enrolled in Kindle Unlimited, I'll be glad to explain this to you.
> 
> In such case, I'd like to kindly highlight that Kindle Unlimited is currently available only for eBooks, published either through Kindle Direct Publishing and enrolled in KDP Select, or other platforms that have decided to become part of the program. If the Kindle title has a paperback or an audio edition, these two versions wouldn't be included in Unlimited, for Unlimited is for Kindle eBooks only.
> 
> If your customers wanted to get your book through unlimited, they may absolutely do so if it's enrolled in Select and if they're subscribed to the Unlimited program! Even so, to get another edition such as a paperback or an audio version, they would have to purchase it separately as the royalties are distributed on different platforms, and they may later synchronize the audio edition with the digital one.
> 
> Currently on KDP we don't have much information about how Audible, ACX or other Audiobook platforms work, so I won't be able to give you much detail on that, and that's why gently recommend you to contact either Audible or ACX. Still, when it comes to Kindle books, you can be sure your titles will be part of the Unlimited program while they are enrolled in Select as this library subscription has been designed exclusively for Kindle publishers.
> 
> I hope this information helps clarify your questions a bit better! Please remember you can always count on us by either replying to this e-mail, or visiting our Contact Us page as you just did!
> 
> Thanks for being part of KDP!


What I understand from the above is that audiobooks, even Whispersynched ones, are not automatically included in Unlimited. Only a very select few audiobooks make it into Unlimited.

Someone please correct me if I'm misunderstanding something here. From what I can tell from the Unlimited store, there are only about 2,200 audiobooks in Unlimited. That's why they're giving a free trial subscription to Audible: you won't find many audiobooks in Unlimited. You have to pay for them separately.


----------



## Lady Vine

Rykymus said:


> The sky isn't falling, it's just that a storm has set in. There will be damage, more to some than others, but everyone will experience some change. After the initial storm clears, we pick up the pieces and figure out how to make things work given the changes.
> 
> It has happened before. It shall happen again...and again...and again.
> 
> I have been all in since day one of Select. I shall remain all in until I have the facts...using data that I collect and not the hearsay and graphs of others.
> 
> I can tell you one thing, though. I have gone and marked in my calendar exactly when each of my Select enrollment periods expire, just in case.


For what it's worth I don't think people like you will be affected (unless the pot is considerably reduced). Right now the people that are feeling the sting are those not in Select. And that's why you'll see a lot of anger here. I worked damn hard to get my books to where they were - in other words I did everything right - only to see the rankings plummet due to, for want of a better term, artificial elevation of KU books. Artificial in that borrows are worth the same as actual sales. How are we supposed to compete with that? It's like trying to compete with freeloads.

I'm bitter, and I think I have every right to be, as do the other authors affected in this way.


----------



## Wansit

Scott Reeves said:


> From what I can tell from the Unlimited store, there are only about 2,200 audiobooks in Unlimited. That's why they're giving a free trial subscription to Audible: you won't find many audiobooks in Unlimited. You have to pay for them separately.


There are 7,000 audiobooks in KU http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sr_aj?node=9069934011&ajr=0

But compared to Audible's full selection it's nothing, so they give you the free three-month access and 1 credit per a month there as well. I don't understand why ALL whispersynced audiobooks aren't included as free for KU Borrows just like books in Select are. That would be a lot more helpful. So RE your 2,000 numbers, perhaps there are 2,000 free audiobooks available.


----------



## Scott Reeves

Wansit said:


> There are 7,000 audiobooks in KU http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sr_aj?node=9069934011&ajr=0
> 
> But compared to Audible's full selection it's nothing, so they give you the free three-month access and 1 credit per a month there as well. I don't understand why ALL whispersynced audiobooks aren't included as free for KU Borrows just like books in Select are. That would be a lot more helpful. So RE your 2,000 numbers, perhaps there are 2,000 free audiobooks available.


Thanks for that link. Sorry for spreading misinformation. I got the 2,000 number by going to Amazon's homepage > Introducing Kindle Unlimited > Listen and Take the Story With You, which brings up "Books With Narration in Kindle Unlimited," of which there are about 2,000.


----------



## Redacted1111

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Sorry if I wasn't clear. The audiobooks that you can get through KU are ones that are paired with ebooks for Whispersync, but you don't actually have to use the Whispersync--you can just listen to the audiobook through the Audible app, as far as I know. I haven't joined the program yet.
> 
> Whispersync is the process where you can read the ebook for awhile and then switch to the audiobook, for example while you're in the car, then switch back to the ebook and just read.
> 
> I'd have to check, but you should be able to use it on your Android device since there's a Kindle App for Audiobooks and an Audible app for audiobooks, and people using the Kindle app can use the KU program. I plan on listening to the Audible books through my iPod Touch as that's what I use when I walk.
> 
> Betsy


I figured it out. I had to update the app on my phone. Then it worked. Thanks guys.


----------



## 75814

Katherine Owen said:


> @PamelaKelly - Yes, this IS a disruption in reading habits. How do I know? I joined to see what Amazon presents to the reader. Books in KU come up with an extra button on the right for KU to purchase/borrow, but more importantly/disturbingly the word F R E E in red is right under the price for those books in KU. This is a mindset of expectation that is being programmed into readers. F R E E is good, says Michael Douglas. And yes, this is a game changer for how readers on Amazon decide to buy or borrow a book or pay for a book called F R E E on their screen. There's no reminder that this is part of your $9.99 a month charge.
> 
> And let's talk about what I actually pay Amazon for a minute. I've been a Prime customer, for years, for the shipping alone which they've messed with over time. It used to be that there was one shipping charge that covered all purchases made on your order. Now, if they split the order up, they charge $3.99 for each box shipped within the order. It's a subtle change. $3.99 here. $3.99 there. Just know, it used to be different--ONE shipping fee--and it cost a lot less. They raised the rates of Prime. What last fall? Meh. The borrow a month? I think I've used it twice since they introduced it. They still get their annual fee from me and I'm fine with that.
> 
> I buy all my books and I buy plenty. But now as a reader and a Prime customer, I have to weigh out that I am spending $99 a year for Prime AS WELL AS $119.88 a year for books. That's $218.88 I give to Amazon each year. Now, I really have to think about that before this trial ends.
> 
> @drno The libraries here are always full of people using the computers--full tables of people on the computers at the library. They're looking for jobs for the most part. It's been that way for years. The shelves are still full of traditional books. And libraries buy their books, you know, from the publishers. And they're still funded. I don't buy your argument that those readers are going to come calling at Amazon for their books. I'd also like to see your books in your signature line so I know from whence you come from. Are you in the game or not?
> 
> Amazon is a business. I am not sure that all their programs even within the Kindle group work together. (I live in Seattle so I am aware how they conduct business and how they treat employees as it were.) Thus, we get a beta service that tells me to price my best seller at $9.99 and the others all at $6.99; and then we get the rollout of KU _in the middle of the month_. A program which basically eliminates _price _as a factor altogether. This _will_ impact B&N, Apple, and Kobo. It will cause indie authors like me who have been running on all platforms, (_directly_) I might add, to re-evaluate what works. And it isn't a matter of enticing me to come back into the fold and be exclusive; it's a matter of survival, relevance, visibility, viability. It changes everything. I'm already seeing a sales impact (downward) as well as an upward trend in ranking. That's important because I'm advertising daily; and I'm still sinking. This will affect Bookbub advertising and all the others. Amazon has the helm. You dig? They just changed course in a huge way and it affects us all that play.
> 
> So please, all of you who are denigrating those saying the sky is falling, pay attention instead. There is a lot of experienced legacy within these ranks and maybe you haven't been here for all of that, so listen up.


Brilliant post. Thank you for the injection of common sense.


----------



## KOwrites

Perry Constantine said:


> Brilliant post. Thank you for the injection of common sense.


Thanks.

I'm considering the Pareto Principle and possibly applying an all-in strategy at this point.


----------



## Rykymus

Honestly, neither the KU borrows nor the KOLL borrows should be counted toward the paid sales rankings. Apples and oranges, you know?


----------



## Scott Reeves

Scott Reeves said:


> Thanks for that link. Sorry for spreading misinformation. I got the 2,000 number by going to Amazon's homepage > Introducing Kindle Unlimited > Listen and Take the Story With You, which brings up "Books With Narration in Kindle Unlimited," of which there are about 2,000.


Actually, I take that back. Not the thank you, just the part about spreading misinformation. There ARE only about 2,000 audiobooks available for free in Unlimited. That 7,000 figure is merely for Unlimited books that are Whispersynched, which does not necessarily mean that the associated audiobooks are available for free in Unlimited.

If you look at this page:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1002872331

under "How can I access Kindle Unlimited audiobooks," it says, "Look for the Kindle Unlimited 'With Narration' icon on Kindle book pages or browse our catalog of titles with free audiobook companions."

When you click on the "catalog" link,

http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=9630682011

it takes you to the page, "Books With Narration in Kindle Unlimited," which lists about 2,200 books. So there are only about 2,200 audiobooks available for free in Unlimited. And as near as I can tell, about half of those are associated with ebooks published by Amazon imprints.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Wansit

Scott Reeves said:


> Actually, I take that back. Not the thank you, just the part about spreading misinformation. There ARE only about 2,000 audiobooks available for free in Unlimited. That 7,000 figure is merely for Unlimited books that are Whispersynched, which does not necessarily mean that the associated audiobooks are available for free in Unlimited.


I signed up for a KU membership and did a test run just to be sure - it works with the 2,000 audiobook files included in the program but it doesn't make it clear from the get-go.



















I had to do some back and forth before I realized I couldn't get the free audio file if I didn't first get the ebook and then download the synced audiobook to my kindle (instead of say to my audible app).

So here's a question - why is it just these 2,000 audio titles that are free instead of the whole 7,000 catalog of whisper-synced titles?


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Scott Reeves said:


> Are we sure about this? I don't think every Unlimited ebook (as long as it has an audiobook version) comes with the audiobook version included free.


Nor did I say they did, I don't think.  Sorry for any confusion; I tried to make it clear that not every book comes with the audiobook version for free--I was trying to say that for those that did have the free book, one could download it to use simply as an audiobook once the ebook had been borrowed.

Betsy


----------



## Scott Reeves

Wansit said:


> So here's a question - why is it just these 2,000 audio titles that are free instead of the whole 7,000 catalog of whisper-synced titles?


I think it's because about half of the 2,000 are published by Amazon imprints, so those audiobooks were probably produced by Amazon. The others, I don't know. Maybe popular, high-selling authors who have special agreements with KDP?

Then, from inquiries I sent to KDP:



> While Audible.com is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Amazon.com, it operates as an independent site.





> Even so, to get another edition such as a paperback or an audio version, they would have to purchase it separately as the royalties are distributed on different platforms, and they may later synchronize the audio edition with the digital one.


So Unlimited isn't connected with Audible, even though Audible is an Amazon company, and there's probably no royalty scheme or agreement set up with Audible or ACX (like the Unlimited fund on KDP) to bring the mass of Whispersynched audiobook titles into Unlimited. Which is probably why they're giving out free trials of Audible with Unlimited subscriptions. Amazon knows that the audiobook selection that's available for free by default in Unlimited...is very limited.


----------



## Guest

Guys, if you have an email list or a promo or a website, now is the time to ask your readers to sign up for Kindle Unlimited. Ask them to go to your book's amazon page and then click the free Kindle Unlimited subscription button, sign up and then borrow your book. It's free for them, so there is no reason for you not to ask your fans or whoever you can convince to do it, to do it. 

Amazon is not rewarding you for the amount of borrows you have for your books, but for the amount of new subscribers you bring in. Let's show Amazon what we can do! Come on, let's show them we're worth $3 a borrow to them and not $2.

BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES!!!!


----------



## JeffreyKafer

Has this been posted yet? Major confusion from customers and support about the audiobook side of things.

http://imgur.com/a/KgiIx


----------



## Wansit

JeffreyKafer said:


> Has this been posted yet? Major confusion from customers and support about the audiobook side of things.
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/KgiIx


That is absolutely ridiculous. Why is it listed under Kindle Unlimited with Narration when the audiobook is unavailable?!


----------



## Vaalingrade

drno said:


> Amazon is not rewarding you for the amount of borrows you have for your books, but for the amount of new subscribers you bring in.


Just when my money was coming down on 'brilliant parodist', we get blatant misinformation.


----------



## bardeh

Vaalingrade said:


> Just when my money was coming down on 'brilliant parodist', we get blatant misinformation.


Paid shill? Who knows!


----------



## Colin

drno said:


> Guys, if you have an email list or a promo or a website, now is the time to ask your readers to sign up for Kindle Unlimited. Ask them to go to your book's amazon page and then click the free Kindle Unlimited subscription button, sign up and then borrow your book. It's free for them, so there is no reason for you not to ask your fans or whoever you can convince to do it, to do it.
> 
> Amazon is not rewarding you for the amount of borrows you have for your books, but for the amount of new subscribers you bring in. Let's show Amazon what we can do! Come on, let's show them we're worth $3 a borrow to them and not $2.
> 
> BOOM TIMES FOR INDIES!!!!


Yeah.... but how loyal are readers? Call me a cynic, but I suspect if authors become recruiting agents for Kindle Unlimited as you suggest, many of their mailing list people will spend their free 30 day trial reading books from the big hitters. And if they currently buy some or all of an author's books from other channels, if they sign on the dotted line after the 30 trial, the author will almost certainly lose future sales from these channels.

BOOM TIMES FOR CRAZY IDEAS!!!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Wansit said:


> That is absolutely ridiculous. Why is it listed under Kindle Unlimited with Narration when the audiobook is unavailable?!


The audiobook is available, per the product page for the book. It's not free however--it's $3.49. Poorly done on Amazon's part, both the listing and the training of the staff.

Betsy


----------



## Vaalingrade

bardeh said:


> Paid shill? Who knows!


I actually had one of those places try and recruit me two or three years ago. I even got their training manual. It makes these sorts of things really easy to spot, especially with the basic neurolinguistic programming tricks they use:

- repeat all your ideas three times
- give your analogies a consistent theme
- never respond with anger, only enthusiasm
- express pity for the opposing view rather than disdain
- ask a question that has an obvious answer, then link it to your position.

Once you know it's there, its easy to spot. The Wizards boards have a bunch of them parachuting in the defend the new edition right now and... well some of _those_ guys are actually good at it.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

A note to new members (and a reminder to long time-members) that "troll" is a four letter word here on KBoards.  

At the risk of V accusing me of being a paid shill, let's return to discussing KU and leave off discussing members themselves.  *she said enthusiastically.*

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Σ

As for the audio books, it's really simple (at least for me, with an audible subscription). Hunger games for example. I click read for free, then open the audible app on my android phone, hit refresh, and the hunger games audio book shows up. I tried using the kindle app for audiobooks, but it sucks compared to just using the audible app. I guess for people without an audible subscription then, it plain sucks. But you can cancel after the audible trial and still use the audible app

The only problem I've noticed is that if I've already purchased the kindle book in the past, I can't get the free audiobook because when I click "read for free" it sends me to a page saying I've already bought that ebook. Which is stupid, but I imagine they will fix it (eventually)


----------



## Σ

Here's the link for the hunger games ebook that comes with the audiobook: http://www.amazon.com/Hunger-Games-Suzanne-Collins-ebook/dp/B002MQYOFW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405931747&sr=8-1&keywords=hunger+games


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Σ said:


> The only problem I've noticed is that if I've already purchased the kindle book in the past, I can't get the free audiobook because when I click "read for free" it sends me to a page saying I've already bought that ebook. Which is stupid, but I imagine they will fix it (eventually)


Lower down on the book's product page it should say something like "since you have the book, add the audiobook for free." That's what it says for me on books I've purchased that have an audiobook companion.

Betsy


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

This is how it shows on books with audiobook companions if you've purchased the book. I'm not yet a member of KU, so don't know if the same thing shows if you've borrowed the book.










Betsy

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Σ

Yeah, it doesn't say free though:


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Not all audiobook versions are free even if the book is part of the KU program...  Sorry for the confusion, I thought you were talking about a book that had a free audiobook companion.

Betsy


----------



## Σ

Yeah, that one's supposed to though. Right below the price is "kindleunlimited with narration".

Here's one that has whispersync yet doesn't have the free audiobook at all:










You can see how it lacks the "with narration" bit


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

In all other cases except Disenchanted, have you found that, if it said, "kindle unlimited book with narration," the narration was free?

I don't believe all books that have whispersync audiobook editions available have those editions available as part of KU.  So there could be books with paired audiobooks that are free in KU, books with paired audiobooks that have a price in KU and books with paired audiobooks where the audiobooks aren't available in KU...

I'm saying this based on a combination of what the KU help pages say (not all KU audiobooks will be free) and that there are a reportedly a lot more Whispersync audiobooks available in the greater Amazon store than are available via KU.

Here's the thing--normally, to get the reduced price for a Whispersync audiobook, you'd actually have to buy the book.  But for some books in KU, you can get apparently get that reduced price just by borrowing the book.  So that's a benefit.

Betsy


----------



## EC

Rykymus said:


> Honestly, neither the KU borrows nor the KOLL borrows should be counted toward the paid sales rankings. Apples and oranges, you know?


Why? both are revenue generating, and in the case of .99 titles - comically so.


----------



## EC

Re the "paid ranking" issue - 

I remember years ago when I worked in Germany it was illegal to offer items free if there was any financial input at all - so to advertise -

"Buy a Canon camera and get a free travel case" was illegal.  By definition, you had to part with money to get the so called free element.  So it wasn't free, it was included - logical eh? 

A paid title on Zon is obviously a paid sale. 

If someone said to me - "Give me $120 a year and you can download all the paid titles that you want." - I'm still paying - so therefore, it's still a paid sale content.  As long as there is money changing hands to access the service - every title is paid for. 

It's inarguable - you may not like it, but it's true.  So any title downloaded via KU should be included in the paid ranking.  


edited for clarity.


----------



## Lady Vine

EC said:


> Why? both are revenue generating, and in the case of .99 titles - comically so.


That can't be a serious question...

Erm, one of them is a borrow, the other is a sale. It really is that simple. The charts aren't called Revenue Generating charts, they're called Paid and Free. Free books also generate lots of money, but that doesn't mean they should compete on the Paid chart.


----------



## Lady Vine

EC said:


> Re the "paid ranking" issue -
> 
> I remember years ago when I worked in Germany it was illegal to offer items free if there was any financial input at all - so to advertise -
> 
> "Buy a Canon camera and get a free travel case" was illegal. By definition, you had to part with money to get the so called free element. So it wasn't free, it was included - logical eh?
> 
> A paid title on Zon is obviously a paid sale.
> 
> If someone said to me - "Give me $120 a year and you can download all the paid titles that you want." - I'm still paying - so therefore, it's still a paid sale content. As long as there is money changing hands to access the service - every title is paid for.
> 
> It's inarguable - you may not like it, but it's true. So any title downloaded via KU should be included in the paid ranking.
> 
> edited for clarity.


Actually you're paying $120 a year for a service - you're not paying for the books per se. And you're also not able to keep the books, you're loaning them. So again, not the same things at all.


----------



## FictionalWriter

I wonder if we'll see Harry Potter back up on the NYT best seller's list.


----------



## EC

Lady Vine said:


> That can't be a serious question...
> 
> Erm, one of them is a borrow, the other is a sale. It really is that simple. The charts aren't called Revenue Generating charts, they're called Paid and Free. Free books also generate lots of money, but that doesn't mean they should compete on the Paid chart.


This is a serious point - I need to pay to access the service, so there is nothing free about it.


----------



## Lady Vine

EC said:


> This is a serious point - I need to pay to access the service, so there is nothing free about it.


Read my second post. I never said they were free, but they're certainly not paid. How can they be when you don't own anything? You're renting them, and your access to them disappears once you stop renting. A borrow is not equal to a paid sale in any way. There should be a third chart, a Borrow chart.


----------



## adanlerma

Katherine, great post, wish I could quote the whole thing, but tried to hit some big points I really liked -



Katherine Owen said:


> @PamelaKelly - Yes, this IS a disruption in reading habits. How do I know? I joined to see what Amazon presents to the reader...This is a mindset of expectation that is being programmed into readers. F R E E is good, says Michael Douglas. And yes, this is a game changer for how readers on Amazon decide to buy or borrow a book or pay for a book called F R E E on their screen. There's no reminder that this is part of your $9.99 a month charge...


Most services, of all kinds, don't put renewal reminders. Probably lose too much business otherwise 

Am glad you how you say it's a game changer for readers (myself included) on Amazon. Many of us who've already joined and are trying out Scribd and Oyster have, I think, already had our expectations changed. For the better on my part, and most of the folk I know using one or other of the two.



> I buy all my books and I buy plenty. But now as a reader and a Prime customer, I have to weigh out that I am spending $99 a year for Prime AS WELL AS $119.88 a year for books. That's $218.88 I give to Amazon each year. Now, I really have to think about that before this trial ends.


Which makes me think, in a tiny corner of my mind, that eventually, all this will be rolled into one plan, for less money, making it more appealing. More lucrative than books, I believe, is the push into streaming movies and music, plus original content. Combining offerings only a few companies could provide, is enticing to an entertainment consumer (me). Maybe forcing folk like Scribd or Oyster into joining someone like Apple and creating a similar entertainment buffet. We'll see 

Where all this will become really interesting, is in regard to libraries, the last local controlled non-super-corporate frontier left.



> @drno The libraries here are always full of people using the computers--full tables of people on the computers at the library. They're looking for jobs for the most part. It's been that way for years. The shelves are still full of traditional books. And libraries buy their books, you know, from the publishers. And they're still funded. I don't buy your argument that those readers are going to come calling at Amazon for their books...


Someone else, Drew Smith I believe, also mentioned several cons why libraries don't / won't work. Taking a trip out, lack of selection in rural areas. While all true, it seems this is changing as quickly as a library enters the digital age.

Selection is as big as what OverDrive and Baker & Taylor can supply the libraries. And libraries, from what I've read, aren't at all happy with the huge fees big publishing is charging them. I read one example of a title only being able to be loaned 16 times before another huge fee had to be paid. Wow.

Specific examples of improvements are available on OverDrive's news page (including libraries being able to order a title on demand, rather than in block; and having library links show up on Bing search results ) : http://blogs.overdrive.com/in-the-news/ .

I especially liked the info in : http://blogs.overdrive.com/front-page-library-news/2014/06/26/overdrive-to-present-20142015-ebook-lending-roadmap-at-national-library-conference/

If (when?) business models become too exclusive or too expensive, libraries are already becoming poised to reclaim their position of availability. Might be nice if they did anyway.



> Amazon is a business...
> 
> And it isn't a matter of enticing me to come back into the fold and be exclusive; it's a matter of survival, relevance, visibility, viability. It changes everything. I'm already seeing a sales impact (downward) as well as an upward trend in ranking. That's important because I'm advertising daily; and I'm still sinking. This will affect Bookbub advertising and all the others. Amazon has the helm. You dig?...
> 
> They just changed course in a huge way and it affects us all that play.


I think the point for me here is, what Amazon has changed, is legitimize what Scribd and Oyster have made increasingly popular.

And neither of the latter two platforms are exclusive. And they each have all the indie content, including best sellers, not exclusive to Kindle Unlimited.

Does Amazon even need require exclusiveness from indies anymore? I don't think so.

Anyway, the competition is good. Now we'll see where it goes 

Katherine, I was hesitant to catch up half a dozen pages of comments since I was last here (still working on them), but am glad I did.


----------



## EC

Lady Vine said:


> Read my second post. I never said they were free, but they're certainly not paid. How can they be when you don't own anything? You're renting them, and your access to them disappears once you stop renting. A borrow is not equal to a paid sale in any way. There should be a third chart, a Borrow chart.


This is an internal issue for Amazon - if they did not allocate paid ranking status against these titles, that would give an advantage to those people who were not in the KU programme.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter how you try to spin it - I get paid. So therefore, it's a revenue generating paid title to me. It's clear that Amazon agree with that logic.


----------



## starkllr

EelKat said:


> I can see one problem with KU as a reader. I'm hearing rumors that if you cancel, you lose access to everything you downloaded via KU. So the $9.99 is not money to buy books you want to keep it's just a rental fee with no intention of keeping the book after reading. (and we authors only get paid IF they read it?) That sucks major big time for those of us with a Guinness World Record to maintain. Add more books to my collection only to lose them all the first time I forget to renew mu monthly subscription? I don't think so. besides, ebooks don't count towards my record, Guinness only counts my print books, and print books aren't part of KU.


You don't keep the books anyway, regardless of whether you pay the fee every month or not, right? You only get ten books at a time in KU, so when you want to read an 11th, you have to return one of the ten you have out - and then, I assume, you lose access to it immediately. Right?


----------



## Colin

romanceauthor said:


> I wonder if we'll see Harry Potter back up on the NYT best seller's list.


I hope so. She needs the money.


----------



## Lady Vine

EC said:


> This is an internal issue for Amazon - if they did not allocate paid ranking status against these titles, that would give an advantage to those people who were not in the KU programme.
> 
> The bottom line is that it doesn't matter how you try to spin it - I get paid. So therefore, it's a revenue generating paid title to me. It's clear that Amazon agree with that logic.


An advantage to those not in Select?? What, an advantage that was earned when people chose to buy the titles as opposed to rent them? So now non-Select publishers are advantaged because people are doing something they've always done to acquire their books? Surely even you don't believe that.

Amazon may agree with your logic with regards to pay, but that in no way means that it's right, and it still doesn't take away from the fact that, as Ryk pointed out, you and they are comparing apples to oranges. But as with all schemes that inorganically advance books up the charts, it probably won't end well.


----------



## Guest

adanlerma said:


> Which makes me think, in a tiny corner of my mind, that eventually, all this will be rolled into one plan, for less money, making it more appealing.


They recently raised the price of Prime from $79 to $99 a year. They also recently raised the minimum for their free shipping without Prime. And they have also raised their shipping fees in general. There is no reason to assume Amazon will begin scaling BACK fees when they have been steadily increasing them. Amazon is under enormous pressure from investors to actually start generating a profit and not just devour market share. They currently run on a 1-2% profit margin.

When you work under such razor-thin margins, you eventually hit a point where you either have to increase your prices or reduce costs. That means either customers pay more, or suppliers (us) get paid less. Usually, it is both.


----------



## Quiss

EC said:


> The bottom line is that it doesn't matter how you try to spin it - I get paid. So therefore, it's a revenue generating paid title to me. It's clear that Amazon agree with that logic.


It appears at this time that the KU borrows count toward rankings, whether the reader makes it to 10% or not. 
That is also the case with KOLL.
The trouble is, that this skews the ranking in favour of books that were never read or were disliked and abandoned. This doesn't matter so much as it's spread out over a lot of titles, but, especially in these 30 days when there is lots of borrowing going on, could in effect render rankings for all but established books pretty much useless.


----------



## Decon

Just had someone download one of my books via KU. I only know, because they say so in a review. So we're off and running... hopefully. 

If Amazon pull in 1 million subscribers, which is likely and probably on the low side, then that's $10,000,000 per month. Take out Amazon's profit and there should be a good chunk left to share out among those of the 600,000 who get their books downloaded and 10% read. You have to be in it to win it.


----------



## EC

Quiss said:


> It appears at this time that the KU borrows count toward rankings, whether the reader makes it to 10% or not.
> That is also the case with KOLL.
> The trouble is, that this skews the ranking in favour of books that were never read or were disliked and abandoned. This doesn't matter so much as it's spread out over a lot of titles, but, especially in these 30 days when there is lots of borrowing going on, could in effect render rankings for all but established books pretty much useless.


There are plenty of books that were paid for which have also been discarded and abandoned - and no refund requested. It evens out.


----------



## EC

Lady Vine said:


> An advantage to those not in Select?? What, an advantage that was earned when people chose to buy the titles as opposed to rent them? So now non-Select publishers are advantaged because people are doing something they've always done to acquire their books? Surely even you don't believe that.
> 
> Amazon may agree with your logic with regards to pay, but that in no way means that it's right, and it still doesn't take away from the fact that, as Ryk pointed out, you and they are comparing apples to oranges. But as with all schemes that inorganically advance books up the charts, it probably won't end well.


There is one glaring and noteworthy difference between Prime and KU, and again it's unarguable.

A member benefit of Prime is that you are allowed to borrow one book per month.

KU is a subscription service allowing you unlimited access to paid titles. The customer is buying the right to read the title - whether they read one title at $9.99 a month, or 100 at 10 cents is up to them.

They are paying to read the title.


----------



## starkllr

Decon said:


> Just had someone download one of my books via KU. I only know, because they say so in a review. So we're off and running... hopefully.
> 
> If Amazon pull in 1 million subscribers, which is likely and probably on the low side, then that's $10,000,000 per month. Take out Amazon's profit and there should be a good chunk left to share out among those of the 600,000 who get their books downloaded and 10% read. You have to be in it to win it.


This is one of my big problems with the whole program, right here. There's nothing in anything I've seen about the program that ties the size of the monthly pool to revenues from KU subscriptions (or to anything else, for that matter). The size of the pool is totally arbitrary (not from Amazon's POV, obviously; they're not just picking a number out of thin air - but they're also not telling anybody outside Amazon what that number is based on).


----------



## Lady Vine

EC said:


> There is one glaring and noteworthy difference between Prime and KU, and again it's unarguable.
> 
> A member benefit of Prime is that you are allowed to borrow one book per month.
> 
> KU is a subscription service allowing you unlimited access to paid titles. The customer is buying the right to read the title - whether they read one title at $9.99 a month, or 100 at 10 cents is up to them.
> 
> They are paying to read the title.


They're paying for a service, but they're not paying for the books. It's as much a difference as buying and renting a house; money's exchanging hands, but they're still not the same things. You might not be able to appreciate the difference, but it is there.

And it looks like we're going around in circles, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Guest

Quiss said:


> It appears at this time that the KU borrows count toward rankings, whether the reader makes it to 10% or not.
> That is also the case with KOLL.
> The trouble is, that this skews the ranking in favour of books that were never read or were disliked and abandoned. This doesn't matter so much as it's spread out over a lot of titles, but, especially in these 30 days when there is lots of borrowing going on, could in effect render rankings for all but established books pretty much useless.


This goes back to the days where free was counted towards the pay ranking. I would have more sympathy towards Amazon if they were just counting the reads towards the rank, but just downloads - this is a deliberate move to artificially inflate their own ranks akin to freebookservice and all those gimmicky fiverr ads. Not the exact same practice, but the same principle.

Why do that? Because they want indies / self publishers AND TRADITIONAL opting in for Select. Because then they own the market. It's unprofessional BS bullying. Same as Barnes weighing down erotic titles so they can't hit the top 100.

Not going to sway me though. Why? Because if I chucked my books in KU it wouldn't do anything. This is a paid lists war.


----------



## books_mb

Quiss said:


> It appears at this time that the KU borrows count toward rankings, whether the reader makes it to 10% or not.


I'm not so sure that's true. I had a closer look at one of my books. The sum of sales and borrows (past 10%) yesterday was approximately what I got by sales alone on an average day in February. The resulting rank is roughly the same. So either almost all who borrowed the book read past 10 % (which I think is unlikely) or only reading past 10 % counts in terms of rank. But of course this comparison is not a solid proof since rank depends on so much more than just yesterday's sales and borrows.


----------



## Jash

Lady Vine said:


> Read my second post. I never said they were free, but they're certainly not paid. How can they be when you don't own anything? You're renting them, and your access to them disappears once you stop renting. A borrow is not equal to a paid sale in any way. There should be a third chart, a Borrow chart.


Isn't this technically true of kindle books you "buy" as well? Unless they've changed the kindle t&cs in the last couple of years. At the end of the day it's all semantics. Amazon's charts don't adhere to any strict definitions, they represent sales data (which includes borrows) presented in a way amazon wants to present it. There is no "should" in this case. What people think Amazon "should" do tends to align with their own best interests.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Katherine Owen said:


> @PamelaKelly - Yes, this IS a disruption in reading habits. How do I know? I joined to see what Amazon presents to the reader. Books in KU come up with an extra button on the right for KU to purchase/borrow, but more importantly/disturbingly the word F R E E in red is right under the price for those books in KU. This is a mindset of expectation that is being programmed into readers. F R E E is good, says Michael Douglas. And yes, this is a game changer for how readers on Amazon decide to buy or borrow a book or pay for a book called F R E E on their screen. *There's no reminder that this is part of your $9.99 a month charge. *


Well, I think the part I bolded isn't quite right, though I agree that there will be some people who don't quite get it--there always are--and that Amazon could make it still more clear. Though there are always some people for whom you can't make it clear enough. 

The page says in at least two places "_Read_ for free" (italics mine); the red letter word FREE that you mention is next to "Kindle Unlimited." Right above it is Kindle Price with the price. And the KU logo is there. Books that are free to own have the price 0.00 next to the Kindle Price.










When you're shopping for a KU book, the kindleunlimited logo is there (though kind of nondescript--it needs some color to pop) and there are two 1-click buttons--one says "Read for Free," the other says "Buy Now with 1-Click." Even if it's otherwise Free (and there are some of those.) A free-to-own book not in KU says only "Buy Now with 1-click" and, of course, doesn't have the KU logo.

Once you've clicked "Read for Free" you get the following screen, which has a button on it "MY kindle unlimited books":









An owned book has a link to your order:









So, yes, I think it should be clear to most people that they're getting a book under their $9.99 Kindle Unlimited subscription. But I do agree that some will be confused.

Betsy

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Chrisbwritin

Quiss said:


> It appears at this time that the KU borrows count toward rankings, whether the reader makes it to 10% or not.
> That is also the case with KOLL.
> The trouble is, that this skews the ranking in favour of books that were never read or were disliked and abandoned. This doesn't matter so much as it's spread out over a lot of titles, but, especially in these 30 days when there is lots of borrowing going on, could in effect render rankings for all but established books pretty much useless.


I'm going to have to disagree here. I'm not in Select/KU right now but it would seem to me that NONE of the books, whether purchased or "rented", have been read when the purchase affects rank. To my knowledge, there are no measures in place to determine if a purchased book is read at the time of purchase. In fact, I don't even know if returns count against rank. I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with any of this yet, but that's an important distinction to note, IMO

Also, to Lady Vine, while I understand where you're coming from, I wouldn't call this apples to oranges. More like apples to... Other apples of a different color. Just because I don't pay the gym every time I go to work out, I can promise you, I am still definitely paying. It's not free. I just pay for it monthly. Therefore, to my mind, "borrowing" a book should definitely affect ranks of the reader is paying a fee.

Again, just my personal .02


----------



## Alondo

I'm still showing zero KU/KOLL borrows, though I know people have downloaded it. Do they take a while to show up?


----------



## Decon

books_mb said:


> I'm not so sure that's true. I had a closer look at one of my books. The sum of sales and borrows (past 10%) yesterday was approximately what I got by sales alone on an average day in February. The resulting rank is roughly the same. So either almost all who borrowed the book read past 10 % (which I think is unlikely) or only reading past 10 % counts in terms of rank. But of course this comparison is not a solid proof since rank depends on so much more than just yesterday's sales and borrows.


I haven't sold or had borrowed any of the book that was downloaded via KU for at least one month. It was over a million in ranking. I should have looked on Fri/Saturday when I noticed it was downloaded. Anyway it's around 300,000 today, so it counts for something.


----------



## books_mb

Decon said:


> I haven't sold or had borrowed any of the book that was downloaded via KU for at least one month. It was over a million in ranking. I should have looked on Fri/Saturday when I noticed it was downloaded. Anyway it's around 300,000 today, so it counts for something.


Interesting. That would indeed be an unfair advantage. I think that borrows past 10 % should count for something (1/3 or 1/2 of a sale), but mere downloads? No way.


----------



## Lady Vine

Chrisbwritin said:


> I'm goig to have to disagree here. In not in Select right now but it would seem to me that NONE of the books, whether purchased or "rented", have been read when the purchase affects rank. To my knowledge, there are no measures in place to determine if a purchased book is read at the time of purchase. In fact, I don't even know if returns count against rank. I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with any of this yet, but that's an important distinction to note, IMO
> 
> Also, to Lady Vine, while I understand where you're coming from, I wouldn't call this apples to oranges. More like apples to... Other apples of a different color. Just because I don't pay the gym every time I go to work out, I can promise you, I am still definitely paying. It's not free. I just pay for it monthly. Therefore, to my mind, borrowing a books should definitely affect ranks.
> 
> Again, just my personal .02


Why do you guys think that paying for a service and paying to own something (insofar as anyone can own anything digital) are the same things? Your gym analogy doesn't fit. There is no other option for the gym besides renting the space. You can't buy the gym, can you? The only reason why you think it should go in the Paid ranks is because it doesn't have its own chart that better describes what it is.


----------



## Guest

Chrisbwritin, When a reader downloads from KU, they paid for the KU service, which allows them access to 600,000 books. They didn't specifically buy the book.

When you buy someone's book, that directly sends the publisher a royalty they've agreed upon. When you read ten percent of a KU book, that sends the publisher some mysterious unknown amount of money.

When they just download the book, the publisher gets NOTHING

There is no investment from the reader, which is why the publisher doesn't get paid.

But why does it affect the rankings


----------



## Scarrface

I have one book in select and one not, I received 2 hits via KU last night but can anyone confirm KU includes .co.uk?


----------



## bardeh

The one book I put into Select to test the KU waters has been bouncing up and down in ranks ever since. I've sold about 4 paid copies of it since then, but it has gone from 40,000 to 20,000 rank. Right now, I'm almost certain that a download immediately boosts rank, whether or not that book is ever read. I don't agree with this at all, and I hope Amazon change it so that the ranking is only affected once a downloaded book has actually been read.

Scarrface, KU is for Amazon.com only at the moment.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Lady Vine said:


> Why do you guys think that paying for a service and paying to own something (insofar as anyone can own anything digital) are the same things? Your gym analogy doesn't fit. There is no other option for the gym besides renting the space. You can't buy the gym, can you? The only reason why you think it should go in the Paid ranks is because it doesn't have its own chart that better describes what it is.


Yet you keep calling it "free". The books are not "free", any more than my garbage collection service is or anything else that might not be a tangible item that you get to keep after the point of purchase.

Better example, then. If you go to a buffet, is all the food you eat "Free"? I mean, you don't "own" that either. When you leave, you're not allowed to take any of that buffet food with you (unless you're my Aunt Glenda, and fill your musty purse with rolls and pats of butter, but I digress). So you've eaten your plate(s) full, but you leave with nothing tangible but the experience of having been there and a full tummy. If you "rent" a book via KU, same holds true. You've consumed my intellectual property and it will stay with you in "spirit" for a time, but eventually, like that meal, it will be...expelled to make room for more of the same. I realize we're going to have to agree to disagree, and honestly, I have no stake in this situation, because I still haven't decided which side of the fence I'm on, but I really can't grasp calling these books free when they've been PAID for (just in advance).


----------



## Decon

books_mb said:


> Interesting. That would indeed be an unfair advantage. I think that borrows past 10 % should count for something (1/3 or 1/2 of a sale), but mere downloads? No way.


Like I said. They have read it all and posted a review, so the rank at least reflects they got past 10%. So I don't call that unfair. (They stated in the review they downloaded it via KU)


----------



## Chrisbwritin

ShaneJeffery said:


> Chrisbwritin, When a reader downloads from KU, they paid for the KU service, which allows them access to 600,000 books. They didn't specifically buy the book.
> 
> When you buy someone's book, that directly sends the publisher a royalty they've agreed upon. When you read ten percent of a KU book, that sends the publisher some mysterious unknown amount of money.
> 
> When they just download the book, the publisher gets NOTHING
> 
> There is no investment from the reader, which is why the publisher doesn't get paid.
> 
> But why does it affect the rankings


There IS an investment from the reader. $9.99. It's a flat rate. While Amazon chooses to divvy it up by books downloaded with 10% of the book read, that isn't the service the reader is buying. If that was the case, and they downloaded NO books that month, then they would be entitled to a refund. Instead, Amazon is keeping that money. There might be no investment from AMAZON to the publisher, but the readers HAS purchased the right to read EVERY BOOK on that catalog with their 9.99, ten books at a time. And the reader has spoken when they rented your title, whether they read it or not, because they invested in advance. Just like if they purchased a book outright, whether is it's just sitting on their kindle unread or not. Or maybe they bought it and hated it. Saying that counting the "rentals" in ranking is "skewing the ranking toward unread books" is incorrect because I know half the books I purchase on my kindle are "unread". Should those author rankings be penalized or do they deserve the credit for me having made the purchase?

Again, I'm not some huge proponent of KU. I'm just not sure how the book is "free". I can't get my head around that concept at all.


----------



## Lady Vine

Chrisbwritin said:


> Yet you keep calling it "free". The books are not "free", any more than my garbage collection service is or anything else that might not be a tangible item that you get to keep after the point of purchase.
> 
> Better example, then. If you go to a buffet, is all the food you eat "Free"? I mean, you don't "own" that either. When you leave, you're not allowed to take any of that buffet food with you (unless you're my Aunt Glenda, and fill your musty purse with rolls and pats of butter, but I digress). So you've eaten your plate(s) full, but you leave with nothing tangible but the experience of having been there and a full tummy. If you "rent" a book via KU, same holds true. You've consumed my intellectual property and it will stay with you in "spirit" for a time, but eventually, like that meal, it will be...expelled to make room for more of the same. I realize we're going to have to agree to disagree, and honestly, I have no stake in this situation, because I still haven't decided which side of the fence I'm on, but I really can't grasp calling these books free when they've been PAID for (just in advance).


Please, please, please point me to the part in any of my posts where I've called them free. You won't find it, because I have never said they're free. They're not. They're rentals. Just like in Blockbuster (may it rest in peace), you paid to watch the movies, but when your time was up you handed them back. I don't know whether you ever went into a Blockbuster store before, but they always had a separate rental chart and buying chart. Why? Because, however subtle the difference between the two are (and I don't think it is that subtle), they still recognised that there was a difference.


----------



## adanlerma

Vaalingrade said:


> I actually had one of those places try and recruit me two or three years ago. I even got their training manual. It makes these sorts of things really easy to spot, especially with the basic neurolinguistic programming tricks they use:
> 
> - repeat all your ideas three times
> - give your analogies a consistent theme
> - never respond with anger, only enthusiasm
> - express pity for the opposing view rather than disdain
> - ask a question that has an obvious answer, then link it to your position.
> 
> Once you know it's there, its easy to spot. The Wizards boards have a bunch of them parachuting in the defend the new edition right now and... well some of _those_ guys are actually good at it.


Didn't realize it was so blatant. I'm so naive in so many way!

Should be a required disclosure field


----------



## Sarah E. Olson

Hi, first post, but long time lurker. I've had one book published via small publisher, and now I'm working to indie publish on my own. 

My husband wrote a book of longish superhero stories, and published it on Amazon two years ago. He then did absolutely nothing to promote it. (Don't ask.) As an experiment, I joined KU yesterday to download his book (and a few others, including some from folks here).

Here is the ranking info I collected on his book:

Borrowed via KU at 5pm EDT 07/20/14 ranked then at #2,071,513

As you can see, for the next several hours, the ranking actually went down, even though I'd gone well past the 10% read threshold.

#2,073,684 Paid in Kindle Store 7:30pm
#2,073,741 Paid in Kindle Store 9:07pm

But then:

#103,733 Paid in Kindle Store 11:15pm  WOW!

He verified that he only had one borrow in his account. I was astonished that one borrow could create that quantum leap up in the rankings!

As of right now at 11:10am EDT it's falling, but still higher ranked than I would have expected:

#199,889 Paid in Kindle Store

This *has* to be of major concern to people not in Select. 

Sarah


----------



## EC

Lady Vine said:


> Please, please, please point me to the part in any of my posts where I've called them free. You won't find it, because I have never said they're free. They're not. They're rentals. Just like in Blockbuster (may it rest in peace), you paid to watch the movies, but when your time was up you handed them back. I don't know whether you ever went into a Blockbuster store before, but they always had a separate rental chart and buying chart. Why? Because, however subtle the difference between the two are (and I don't think it is that subtle), they still recognised that there was a difference.


As you point out they are not free - so therefore Zon are correct to count them in the paid charts.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Lady Vine said:


> Please, please, please point me to the part in any of my posts where I've called them free. You won't find it, because I have never said they're free. They're not. They're rentals. Just like in Blockbuster (may it rest in peace), you paid to watch the movies, but when your time was up you handed them back. I don't know whether you ever went into a Blockbuster store before, but they always had a separate rental chart and buying chart. Why? Because, however subtle the difference between the two are (and I don't think it is that subtle), they still recognised that there was a difference.


I apologize for the misquote, truly. This was was the post I was responding to, initially.

"Erm, one of them is a borrow, the other is a sale. It really is that simple. The charts aren't called Revenue Generating charts, they're called Paid and Free. Free books also generate lots of money, but that doesn't mean they should compete on the Paid chart."

I guess to my mind, I equated the word "borrow" as "free" because that's how I think of borrowing. If I ask someone to "borrow" a pencil, or a cup of sugar, I'm not expecting to give them money for it. I also don't ask the cable guy to "borrow" cable for the month. I PAID for that *%*! So the term definitely triggered the term "free" in my mind, and I apologize for using them interchangeably.


----------



## Lady Vine

Chrisbwritin said:


> I apologize for the misquote, truly. This was was the post I was responding to, initially.
> 
> "Erm, one of them is a borrow, the other is a sale. It really is that simple. The charts aren't called Revenue Generating charts, they're called Paid and Free. Free books also generate lots of money, but that doesn't mean they should compete on the Paid chart."
> 
> I guess to my mind, I equated the word "borrow" as "free" because that's how I think of borrowing. If I ask someone to "borrow" a pencil, or a cup of sugar, I'm not expecting to give them money for it. I also don't ask the cable guy to "borrow" cable for the month. I PAID for that *%*! So the term definitely triggered the term "free" in my mind, and I apologize for using them interchangeably.


No probs. I was using "borrow" interchangeably with "rent".


----------



## Caddy

But it's not really a sale. You don't get to keep the books on your kindle if you leave Unlimited, so you haven't bought them. You bought the subscription, not the books.


----------



## adanlerma

Sarah E. Olson said:


> ...Here is the ranking info I collected on his book:
> 
> Borrowed via KU at 5pm EDT 07/20/14 ranked then at #2,071,513
> 
> As you can see, for the next several hours, the ranking actually went down, even though I'd gone well past the 10% read threshold.
> 
> #2,073,684 Paid in Kindle Store 7:30pm
> #2,073,741 Paid in Kindle Store 9:07pm
> 
> But then:
> 
> #103,733 Paid in Kindle Store 11:15pm WOW!
> 
> He verified that he only had one borrow in his account. I was astonished that one borrow could create that quantum leap up in the rankings!
> 
> As of right now at 11:10am EDT it's falling, but still higher ranked than I would have expected:
> 
> #199,889 Paid in Kindle Store
> 
> This *has* to be of major concern to people not in Select.
> 
> Sarah


Sarah, David Guaghran has a detailed post that speaks to this as among one of his concerns, and to several pluses (overall) he also sees. The comment thread is very nuanced both ways. Good balanced post -

http://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/kindle-unlimited-the-key-questions/


----------



## Sarah E. Olson

Felipe,

Thanks, the David Gaughran link you posted above is what gave me the idea to try the experiment. 

Sarah


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Caddy said:


> But it's not really a sale. You don't get to keep the books on your kindle if you leave Unlimited, so you haven't bought them. You bought the subscription, not the books.


Thing about that is, (and I KNOW this irritates most of us equally) Amazon's ranking method isn't strictly based on purchases and never was. It's been a point of issue for authors from day one. Many have long suspected (and even had what I would call proof) that price affects ranking and, at points, Amazon imprints seemed to be higher ranked on certain lists than non-Amazon imprints, and so on. The mystery of the algo is one we mere mortals canna hope to understand, so the idea that some are expecting it to ONLY reflect sales in the strictest sense of the word now with regard to KU seems off to me. It never did. It's a proprietary system of measuring a book's relevance that we wish was about sales. That's not going to change (and shouldn't, IMO) for KU, unless they overhaul the whole system and actually base it on sales.


----------



## Rykymus

A "Sales" ranking indicates (or at least should) the general sales performance of your title. Although many things affect this ranking, to the consumer it indicates how often that title is "purchased" in comparison with every other title on Amazon. When someone "purchases" a title, they are making a conscious decision to spend a known amount of money in order to read that title whenever they want, for the rest of time. (You know what I mean.) The value of that decision is far more than when the consumer "borrows" it via KOLL, and even more value than when they "borrow" it from KU. Them being willing to read the book when it isn't costing them anything extra to give it a try (time not considered) isn't as much of a risk in the consumer's mind. To them, it's "free." (As in they didn't have to pay extra for it.)

The reason Amazon has chosen to factor KU borrows into the sales rank is because they know that indie's won't pull their books from Select/KU for fear of a precipitous drop in rankings. It will also force those who are not in Select/KU to join out of fear of falling into the rankings basement. This is the same way it worked back in the early days of Select.

So far, I've seen a 25% drop in sales over the first two days of KU. At the same time, I've seen my borrows go from 25ish per day to 100ish. As of yesterday, my sales were back up to normal, yet my borrows are still 4 times what they usually were. If those borrows all pay out at the usual $2 per, great. If they fall to $1 - $1.50, I'll be okay with it. (As long as the volume stays higher than before KU.) $1 or less, I'll be gone.

Edited to Add: My rankings for ALL episodes within my series have improved considerably, especially the first book in the series, which has seen increases in both sales and borrows.

The questions that I want answered are as follows:

1) When does the register of a KU borrow show up on my report? Is it as soon as it is downloaded or is it after they read past 10%? (We already know about when we get paid. So I'm assuming that it is the same.)

2) When does the KU borrow affect the ranking? Download or 10% read mark?

3) Will the downloadable spreadsheet show the number of KU borrows and the number of KOLL borrows separately? (I ask because although my online reports don't show the number of foreign sales that pay only 35% royalty. the spreadsheets do.)


----------



## Jim Johnson

Rykymus said:


> The questions that I want answered are as follows:
> 
> 1) When does the register of a KU borrow show up on my report? Is it as soon as it is downloaded or is it after they read past 10%? (We already know about when we get paid. So I'm assuming that it is the same.)
> 
> 2) When does the KU borrow affect the ranking? Download or 10% read mark?
> 
> 3) Will the downloadable spreadsheet show the number of KU borrows and the number of KOLL borrows separately? (I ask because although my online reports don't show the number of foreign sales that pay only 35% royalty. the spreadsheets do.)


I imagine a little experimenting might answer some of your questions. PM me a link to one of your books in Select and I'll borrow it on whatever timeline works best for you to start tracking the timing and rankings and so forth.


----------



## KOwrites

@adanlerma - Thanks. Oyster sounds interesting, but I've bought all my books from Amazon for years.

@betsy - Thanks for the screenshots; that helps, although I won't repost since it takes up too much screen space and you all have probably seen it by now. lol.

My point with the use of the word F R E E as it relates to KU is that readers are actually paying for the use of the book. It's _not_ free actually because they signed up for a service at $9.99 a month etc...just like others have said. I just find it misleading to state F R E E ...

F R E E to _borrow_ would sit better with me.

F R E E to Kindle Unlimited Members would be much better

or, AS PART of your KU membership, no charge

or even if the Zon just posted: $0.00

Anyway, personal experience as a reader? Now, I have this new quirky thing going on because for every book I look at buying, I look to see if it's in KU first. So I automatically look at the right column to see if it's in KU first. Most of the books I've been looking at are not in KU. I'm taking a wait and see approach to see if that changes because now I have to weigh any book purchases against that monthly float of $9.99. It's changing what I buy and when I buy/borrow it. I do envision KU readers borrowing the book and going back to purchase for future reference because some readers do like to re-read their books. I imagine some of that will happen.

Something that began to resonate with me yesterday (I don't remember if it was here on the boards or in a press release I read) is this: KU members do not have to be a Prime member. It seems to me that Amazon widened the net of their base and other platforms intentionally. I'm sure they have the data to invite readers beyond Prime into the fold. In light of that, I do believe KU is a way to compete with Oyster and Scribd (no doubt a salvo to take them out), but the timing of this program's release would also indicate that they are not waiting for negotiations with Hachette finish and it definitely puts the others on notice. The old adage: We do what we want, when we want, and what's best for our customers. KU will boost the reads for Indies in Select and affect those Indies that aren't in the programs with the veritable shift in ranks as others have noted. As if I needed to even add that.

My overall point remains...it's a huge shift for readers and writers, alike.

And I, for one, have had to rethink my strategy like never before.


----------



## Guest

Chrisbwritin said:


> There IS an investment from the reader. $9.99. It's a flat rate. While Amazon chooses to divvy it up by books downloaded with 10% of the book read, that isn't the service the reader is buying. If that was the case, and they downloaded NO books that month, then they would be entitled to a refund. Instead, Amazon is keeping that money. There might be no investment from AMAZON to the publisher, but the readers HAS purchased the right to read EVERY BOOK on that catalog with their 9.99, ten books at a time. And the reader has spoken when they rented your title, whether they read it or not, because they invested in advance. Just like if they purchased a book outright, whether is it's just sitting on their kindle unread or not. Or maybe they bought it and hated it. Saying that counting the "rentals" in ranking is "skewing the ranking toward unread books" is incorrect because I know half the books I purchase on my kindle are "unread". Should those author rankings be penalized or do they deserve the credit for me having made the purchase?
> 
> Again, I'm not some huge proponent of KU. I'm just not sure how the book is "free". I can't get my head around that concept at all.


All things being equal, it's not equal.

You click on a KU book but never open it, that is not the same as a reader purchasing a book outright. It just isn't. Not in the terms of sales ranks it shouldn't be. This isn't Bob and Marley's Ebook Store, this is Amazon, the biggest market in ebooks. They made a choice to make KU members clicking on books the same weight as people actually buying books. That has nothing to do with what is right in authentic terms. How can you not see that?

The bestseller list, in the biggest online retailer of ebooks, has been modded by them, to give weight to their exclusive subscription service. I don't have to argue it, I've said my piece. It's outright obvious what they're doing. Does it matter that I don't approve? Of course not. It only matters if there are others who are in agreement. I choose my fights carefully, and for me, I know it's worth saying something about this.


----------



## adanlerma

Sarah E. Olson said:


> Felipe,
> 
> Thanks, the David Gaughran link you posted above is what gave me the idea to try the experiment.
> 
> Sarah


Figures  great post


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Katherine--

Agree that's it's going to change things for many readers in how they approach choosing books. For others, not so much, at least as long as the major publishing houses aren't involved.

What I've been doing to choose books under the program is to go directly to the KindleUnlimited storefront--you can get there by going to the Kindle ebook store, and then choosing Kindle Unlimited on the side. You can further refine what you're looking for. Or click here. My major interest is in audiobooks to listen to while I exercise or quilt; I'm going to have no problem getting my money's worth that way, even if I have to buy the audiobook for a nominal price.

But, if there is a book I really want to buy, and it's not in the program, I'll continue to buy it. I don't think it's going to change things too much for me. I probably buy about $20-$30 worth of books a month, about half indie based on posts here on KB; now it'll be $10-$20 of books not in KU and the rest will be the indie books I try based on posts here on KB--only they'll be "borrows" and I'll probably read them sooner than I would have otherwise.

EDIT: I probably will also read more Kindle Singles under the program than I buy now--not much of a short story reader, but I'll pick up a couple a month.

Betsy


----------



## Colin

Back in the day, a retailer (read Amazon) and a product supplier (read author/publisher) would have clearly defined T&Cs (read contract) and being fully informed, the product supplier would have no need to ask a lot of questions of the retailer in public (forums) about what counts as a sale, rankings, payment terms et al.

The fact that the retailer's contract _apparently_ allows them to do pretty much what they want - including changing the whole supply chain/retail landscape without any notice at all, and with scant information for authors, has to led to several very long threads of speculation, accusations, counter-accusations and general disharmony.

Make of that what you want.


----------



## Raquel Lyon

Rykymus said:


> The questions that I want answered are as follows:
> 
> 1) When does the register of a KU borrow show up on my report? Is it as soon as it is downloaded or is it after they read past 10%? (We already know about when we get paid. So I'm assuming that it is the same.)
> 
> 2) When does the KU borrow affect the ranking? Download or 10% read mark?
> 
> 3) Will the downloadable spreadsheet show the number of KU borrows and the number of KOLL borrows separately? (I ask because although my online reports don't show the number of foreign sales that pay only 35% royalty. the spreadsheets do.)


I may be able to help a little with this.

I have one book in KU. It has had no borrows on it in two months. On Saturday, I was in Author Central and noticed its rank had jumped up. I immediately went to my reports, but saw flat lines everywhere. I'm a very sad author, who checks her reports every 30 mins, or so, but not until more than 24 hours later did I see both the 'sale' on my MTD and the blue line rise, on the previous day.

So to clarify: The customer downloaded the book on Saturday. Ranking went up on Saturday. 'Sale' registered on MTD on Sunday. Graph moved up a notch on Sunday, but on Saturday's line. This remains my only borrow.
Make of this what you will.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Σ said:


> Yeah, that one's supposed to though. Right below the price is "kindleunlimited with narration".
> 
> Here's one that has whispersync yet doesn't have the free audiobook at all:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see how it lacks the "with narration" bit


Hey, Σ (should I call you Sigma? )

About the audiobooks--if an audiobook version is included for free with the book--when you "check out" the book by tapping on the "Read for Free" button, the audiobook is automatically sent to your account, too. You don't have to do anything. And, interestingly, there was no charge for me when picking up _Catching Fire_ in the _Hunger Games_ trilogy, so maybe they've got some wrinkles ironed out....off to return that one as it was just a test.

Betsy


----------



## 41419

On whether borrows should count towards rank:

In the music business, YouTube views are now part of the mix in determining chart placement. 

Amazon counts borrows as a sale for ranking purposes. I suspect the NYT and USA Today won't, but I'd also expect that to change over time as sub-services get more popular. It might take a while, but I'd say it's inevitable.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

KU had better count toward rank! That's why I'm putting my single title in there!


----------



## KOwrites

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Katherine--
> 
> Agree that's it's going to change things for many readers in how they approach choosing books. For others, not so much, at least as long as the major publishing houses aren't involved.
> 
> What I've been doing to choose books under the program is to go directly to the KindleUnlimited storefront--you can get there by going to the Kindle ebook store, and then choosing Kindle Unlimited on the side. You can further refine what you're looking for. Or click here. My major interest is in audiobooks to listen to while I exercise or quilt; I'm going to have no problem getting my money's worth that way, even if I have to buy the audiobook for a nominal price.
> 
> But, if there is a book I really want to buy, and it's not in the program, I'll continue to buy it. I don't think it's going to change things too much for me. I probably buy about $20-$30 worth of books a month, about half indie based on posts here on KB; now it'll be $10-$20 of books not in KU and the rest will be the indie books I try based on posts here on KB--only they'll be "borrows" and I'll probably read them sooner than I would have otherwise.
> 
> EDIT: I probably will also read more Kindle Singles under the program than I buy now--not much of a short story reader, but I'll pick up a couple a month.
> 
> Betsy


I think it will definitely expand readers access to other books (audio, short stories, etc..., Indies). All true, I agree.

It will be interesting to see how Amazon handles the Big 5 in relation to KU. I'm betting the intent of KU succeeding will remain an overriding factor for most of their marketing strategies as it relates to books. Amazon certainly "knows" that the biggest players are participating within Scribd and Oyster's platforms, respectively. It's been done, so how does the Zon make KU work for Amazon? Also, Hugh and Data Guy's report dovetails into this which probably corresponds with their own internal data charts and what they see happening. It isn't about just selling hardback copies anymore, is it? It's a risk to go without the endorsement of the big 5 in the KU program, but Amazon can afford to wait them out. _My guess._


----------



## EC

Caddy said:


> But it's not really a sale. You don't get to keep the books on your kindle if you leave Unlimited, so you haven't bought them. You bought the subscription, not the books.


There comes a point when this is reduced to vanity. I don't care how many books I sell. Show me the money.

"Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity."


----------



## 77071

Okay so I just got my newsletter from Kindle Direct Publishing, and it looks like we're getting a great rate for each borrow so far this month:



> All books currently enrolled in KDP Select with U.S. rights will be automatically included in Kindle Unlimited. KDP Select books will also continue to be enrolled in the Kindle Owners' Lending Library (KOLL) available to Amazon Prime customers in the U.S., U.K., Germany, France, and Japan where authors will continue to earn a share of the KDP Select global fund when their book is borrowed. KOLL borrows will continue to be counted when a book is initially downloaded. In the month of June, KDP Select-enrolled authors earned $2.24 each time their books were borrowed.


Interesting to see what happens as things continue to shake down.


----------



## Alondo

adanlerma said:


> Sarah, David Guaghran has a detailed post that speaks to this as among one of his concerns, and to several pluses (overall) he also sees. The comment thread is very nuanced both ways. Good balanced post -
> 
> http://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/kindle-unlimited-the-key-questions/


My Select book has also been going up and down like a yo-yo in the rankings, and the borrows still show as zero. I have no idea what's going on.


----------



## Victoria Champion

HSh said:


> Okay so I just got my newsletter from Kindle Direct Publishing, and it looks like we're getting a great rate for each borrow so far this month:
> 
> Interesting to see what happens as things continue to shake down.


Well, that says that was for June. This is July. In June, there was far less competition for a share of the money pot. Someone posted earlier that they were in Select one month wherein they received $1 and some small change per borrow. The shared royalty could amount to anything at this point.


----------



## WDR

EelKat said:


> I can see one problem with KU as a reader. I'm hearing rumors that if you cancel, you lose access to everything you downloaded via KU&#8230;


That's true with all subscription services. You only get to access the content so long as you are paying for access.

It is surprising how many people don't understand this concept. The number one reason why so many music subscription services faded away was because many of the listeners didn't understand that they weren't buying music, they were merely paying for the access to listen to the music collection of the subscription service. Once they stopped paying-like discontinuing your HBO subscription, a magazine subscription, or your Netflix subscription-they could no longer access the media that was being supplied by the service.


----------



## Charmaine

This is a response to people wondering about a tiered payment system, 
because a short story shouldn't get the same as a novel  :

Not gonna happen.
It's too hard to judge the value of words.
5,000 words of something good is worth more than 80,000 words of crap.
Also, what about children's books? 
They require WAY more work than a short story.
Heck, some writers can write a novel in a month.
Some children's books take longer than a year!
There are just too many factors to consider for this to ever take effect.


----------



## 555aaa

Decon said:


> If Amazon pull in 1 million subscribers, which is likely and probably on the low side, then that's $10,000,000 per month. Take out Amazon's profit and there should be a good chunk left to share out among those of the 600,000 who get their books downloaded and 10% read. You have to be in it to win it.


Amazon probably grosses about $400M a month in e-book sales: The total book market last year was about $27B (per Publisher's Weekly) and say e-books are about 25% of that, with Amazon probably having about 70% (my guess) of the market, which is about $4.7B annually, or about $400M a month. So the current select pool of about $1M a month is a tiny drop in the bucket. A million subscribers will represent a cash value of 2.5% of the gross sales in a month (roughly).

My guess, for what it's worth, is that this won't amount to anything unless Unlimited is bundled with a subscription service for other entertainment content, such as movies and music. Personally, I think books are fundamentally different from other forms of entertainment. Maybe that's just my generation, but I think there is still the perception of books as storehouses of knowledge. If the Nazis were burning piles of VHS tapes, frankly, it wouldn't be the same.

Most of my friends who are voracious readers rarely pay for books anyway, they get them from the library. When they do pay, its for something they want permanently.


----------



## Dom

Charmaine said:


> This is a response to people wondering about a tiered payment system,
> because a short story shouldn't get the same as a novel  :
> 
> Not gonna happen.
> It's too hard to judge the value of words.
> 5,000 words of something good is worth more than 80,000 words of crap.
> Also, what about children's books?
> They require WAY more work than a short story.
> Heck, some writers can write a novel in a month.
> Some children's books take longer than a year!
> There are just too many factors to consider for this to ever take effect.


I think they could still do it based on price.

What many people don't consider is that Amazon _already_ has a two-tiered system. There's 35% and 70% payments.

Now, if Amazon intends a borrow to be worth $2, then it makes absolutely no sense to give that to a book priced less than $2.99. So why not give $1 to <$2.99, and $2 to >=$2.99? It's not perfect (nothing is) but it makes more sense than the flat rate they have now.

Wait. I know what some of you are saying. "Well I can still upload a 1000 word book and price it at 10 bucks and not get the 99 cent royalty." True, but you could have always done that. The thing is, you need to consider sales as well as borrows, and you're gonna kill your sales (and reviews) if you do that. "But people won't care and will still do it." Sure, and that's no different than it is now, where 1000 word books will earn a full royalty. But at least a two-tiered system like this will lessen the gouging a bit, since legitimate authors with a solid brand who want to exude self-respect won't charge 3 bucks for shorts (unless they're kid's books!).


----------



## 41419

555aaa said:


> Amazon probably grosses about $400M a month in e-book sales: The total book market last year was about $27B (per Publisher's Weekly) and say e-books are about 25% of that, with Amazon probably having about 70% (my guess) of the market, which is about $4.7B annually, or about $400M a month. So the current select pool of about $1M a month is a tiny drop in the bucket. A million subscribers will represent a cash value of 2.5% of the gross sales in a month (roughly).


Not quite. The $27bn estimate is for publishing as a whole in the US - trade, academic, medical, textbooks etc. Trade publishing (fiction + popular non-fiction + children's + religious) is about $14bn or so if I remember right.

Plus e-books are priced cheaper in general, and cheaper again on Amazon, and Amazon has a disproportionate share of the indie market, which have cheaper books in general.

Also, don't forget that the addition of $1m to the pot only covers half a month. This program will grow in popularity too. How much or how fast is an open question, but it will grow.

Finally, there's nothing to stop Amazon topping up the pot again before they pay out. If I remember right, borrows have never been below $1.80 or so, and have averaged around $2.19. I'd be very surprised if Amazon was going to set a new low in borrow payments this month - for PR terms alone.


----------



## Mark Dawson

dgaughran said:


> Finally, there's nothing to stop Amazon topping up the pot again before they pay out. If I remember right, borrows have never been below $1.80 or so, and have averaged around $2.19. I'd be very surprised if Amazon was going to set a new low in borrow payments this month - for PR terms alone.


I'm with you on this, David (and great post summing it up on your blog). The KDP email yesterday referenced the $2 per borrow level for last month ("In the month of June, KDP Select-enrolled authors earned $2.24 each time their books were borrowed.") I know that this references KOLL payments explicitly, but its inclusion in a message which is more about KU makes me think that $2 will be the minimum payout, at least for the first few months. There will be bad press otherwise and I doubt that they are prepared to countenance that until the scheme has launched successfully.


----------



## Lady Vine

Mark Dawson said:


> I'm with you on this, David (and great post summing it up on your blog). The KDP email yesterday referenced the $2 per borrow level for last month ("In the month of June, KDP Select-enrolled authors earned $2.24 each time their books were borrowed.") I know that this references KOLL payments explicitly, but its inclusion in a message which is more about KU makes me think that $2 will be the minimum payout, at least for the first few months. There will be bad press otherwise and I doubt that they are prepared to countenance that until the scheme has launched successfully.


Or that they mentioned it to entice authors in. If they had a minimum already set they would have told everyone what it was instead of keeping it quiet. This way they wouldn't technically be lying to anyone if the payout is below $2.


----------



## 41419

Lady Vine said:


> Or that they mentioned it to entice authors in. If they had a minimum already set they would have told everyone what it was instead of keeping it quiet. This way they wouldn't technically be lying to anyone if the payout is below $2.


It's an open question what borrow payouts will be. But let's assume for a second that you are right and Amazon totally intend to pay way less than $2. Now, would you do that in the first month and face a potential PR disaster and loads of indies moaning publicly about the program and yanking their books? Or would you gradually dial down the borrow rate over, say, six months knowing that the carrot (increased borrow volume) and the stick (lost visibility if you stay outside) will do the trick of keeping the indies in line and enrolled?

We are all just guessing here, but I'd be surprised if borrow rates collapse dramatically - whatever you think about Amazon, its intentions, or this program. But maybe I'm wrong. We'll find out soon enough.


----------



## adanlerma

555aaa said:


> My guess, for what it's worth, is that this won't amount to anything unless Unlimited is bundled with a subscription service for other entertainment content, such as movies and music...
> 
> Most of my friends who are voracious readers rarely pay for books anyway, they get them from the library.


My fantasy guess runs along the same lines!

"I" think the exclusive subscription program is itself a continuation of a slow test move toward bundling it with their (Amazon's) movies and music, their shipping and original content.

I've even suddenly been getting email offers from the Washington Post, which Jeff bought recently (and the format and headlines are catchy and timely).

But going back to the bundling. It would allow Amazon to offer a full entertainment spread and, combined, actually lower the total prices (at least to below $200 a year).

I also think, at some point, it'll open up Kindle Unlimited to all the other authors that sell on Amazon.

Exclusiveness isn't something they need for the majority of authors.

A mega-bundle would be its own draw.

Only libraries would compare.

This is an example via OverDrive, and they're not the only innovators working with libraries :
http://blogs.overdrive.com/front-page-library-news/2014/06/26/overdrive-to-present-20142015-ebook-lending-roadmap-at-national-library-conference/

Yes, definitely a fantasy guess


----------



## Lady Vine

dgaughran said:


> It's an open question what borrow payouts will be. But let's assume for a second that you are right and Amazon totally intend to pay way less than $2. Now, would you do that in the first month and face a potential PR disaster and loads of indies moaning publicly about the program and yanking their books? Or would you gradually dial down the borrow rate over, say, six months knowing that the carrot (increased borrow volume) and the stick (lost visibility if you stay outside) will do the trick of keeping the indies in line and enrolled?
> 
> We are all just guessing here, but I'd be surprised if borrow rates collapse dramatically - whatever you think about Amazon, its intentions, or this program. But maybe I'm wrong. We'll find out soon enough.


For anyone else, decreasing the rate gradually would be the smartest option. But for Amazon, who knows the power it wields, I reckon they could reduce it by $0.50 - $1 and many would stay. What would happen is, in the beginning, the borrows would amount to the same revenue they were making in sales, but with more and more people joining the program, those borrows would be more evenly spread out. Then KU authors would find themselves stuck with that $1 royalty and reduced borrows.

You're right, though, we really don't know.


----------



## 75845

What I would really like as a consumer is to be allowed to opt out of the Love Film I get (and rarely use) with my prime subscription and replace it with a KU subscription once that reaches British shores. After all I am paying £79 per year from my next renewal for a service that I took out for £49 before Love Film got blended in. I'm sure as publishers you would also like prime customers to be able to do that. I would once my next book is ready as it was always earmarked for Select since long before the KU announcement.


----------



## RuthNestvold

Ok, I'm going to brave the waters and enter _Chameleon in a Mirror_. I haven't gotten around to uploading it anywhere else yet, after all. We'll see what happens.

Doesn't have any reviews yet, though, so it may just sink like a stone.

Dragton Time and my dystopian collection (which got added automatically while I wasn't paying attention) do have reivews already, but they are short story collections, so I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

As to rankings and when they count. The current system of counting before the 10% is going to royally screw the Author's Earning Reports.  Now we'll have rankings that are higher without any compensation behind them.  But it's even worse because there will be no easy way of determining how many sales were at the KOLL rate and how many were at the sales rate.  When the borrows were just KOLL that wasn't such a big deal, because there was only one borrow a month.  But now that the number of borrows will skyrocket the ratio between "borrows" and "sales" is going to vary a great deal more (I suspect).

I do hope that future author earning reports have a column indicating if the title is in KU.  Because of the snapshot nature of Author's Earning it will be wrong from time to time (a title was in KU most of the month but out when the snapshot was taken....or vice-versa.  But it would be interesting to see - especially over time.  What % of titles were in KU and which weren't.


----------



## adanlerma

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> As to rankings and when they count. The current system of counting before the 10% is going to royally screw the Author's Earning Reports. Now we'll have rankings that are higher without any compensation behind them. But it's even worse because there will be no easy way of determining how many sales were at the KOLL rate and how many were at the sales rate. When the borrows were just KOLL that wasn't such a big deal, because there was only one borrow a month. But now that the number of borrows will skyrocket the ratio between "borrows" and "sales" is going to vary a great deal more (I suspect).


Michael, I would say it's even more problematic than that. Search results and rankings "may" be being skewed via who is exclusive and who is not within KDP.

"If" so, this creates a two tier system. A form of gatekeeper based on exclusivity.

David Gaughran addresses some of these possible imbalances (also commented about on this thread by other folk) :

http://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/kindle-unlimited-the-key-questions/


----------



## Jim Johnson

adanlerma said:


> "If" so, this creates a two tier system. A form of gatekeeper based on exclusivity.


I'm not sure you can call it gatekeeping when the gate is wide open for anyone to enter. Might be a two-tier system, sure.


----------



## adanlerma

Jim Johnson said:


> I'm not sure you can call it gatekeeping when the gate is wide open for anyone to enter. Might be a two-tier system, sure.


Good point Jim, two-tier.

But I think if the wide open gate says, leave options for selling elsewhere at the gate, that's also gatekeeping.

Not bad, not evil. But a selective factor in who gets in.

Like with writers who sign exclusive with a small or big publisher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatekeeping_(28communication)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatekeeper


----------



## WDR

Another way of considering the two-tier system. Maybe it could work for us by removing the biggest of the big name authors from the equation.

Kindle Unlimited: A Second Look...

Of course, it needs to be said: I don't have enough factual information to make an accurate assessment.


----------



## adanlerma

WDR said:


> Another way of considering the two-tier system. Maybe it could work for us by removing the biggest of the big name authors from the equation.
> 
> Kindle Unlimited: A Second Look...
> 
> Of course, it needs to be said: I don't have enough factual information to make an accurate assessment.


William posted this comment on your post (interesting piece  )

*

William, had to tweet this  such an interesting tweet!

I do think there's still a fly still stuck in the exclusive ointment, addressed (among a lot of pros & cons) in David Gaughran's post.
http://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/kindle-unlimited-the-key-questions/

Even within the limited pool of indie writers not receiving special compensation, there is a fear the rankings will pool toward those already selling a lot of books. They'll be the most popular, and new stuff won't be seen or discovered anyway.

In some ways, that's always true anyway. But I guess past experience with Select suggests it may really bury discovery for, what, those who sell 80 or 90% below the top?

And as (if) more and more indies join Kindle Unlimited, that will (again) only intensify the lack of discovery.

But in fairness, not sure anyone's come up with a way to solve that other than time.


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

After reading David Gaughran's post, I had a thought on royalty rate sustainability (whether by Scribd/Oyster or Amazon) and how it might play into the tiering of prices and books in KU. I think we all agree that KU favors the inclusion of shorter works and works broken into smaller pieces, which aren't in Amazon's best interest. I can envision the Zon moving toward a % royalty structure on KOLL borrows and KU reads, say 20-25% for books priced under $2.99 and 40-50% for books priced between $2.99 and $9.99 (paid rates stay what they are). It's the cost of the promise of discoverability. What scares me is the idea that this may be a step toward lowering royalty rates for everyone: they open KU up to everyone, but you take a kit hit on the royalty.


----------



## adanlerma

Saul Tanpepper said:


> After reading David Gaughran's post, I had a thought on royalty rate sustainability (whether by Scribd/Oyster or Amazon) and how it might play into the tiering of prices and books in KU. I think we all agree that KU favors the inclusion of shorter works and works broken into smaller pieces, which aren't in Amazon's best interest. I can envision the Zon moving toward a % royalty structure on KOLL borrows and KU reads, say 20-25% for books priced under $2.99 and 40-50% for books priced between $2.99 and $9.99 (paid rates stay what they are). It's the cost of the promise of discoverability. What scares me is the idea that this may be a step toward lowering royalty rates for everyone: they open KU up to everyone, but you take a kit on the royalty.


Kinda mirroring the royalty difference already in non-exclusive KDP, it's an idea.

And someone had mentioned that actually Scribd' & Oyster's full payout at 30% is a more sustainable plan than Amazon's 10%. But I don't know, Big Z has big pockets 

A full compliment of the books in Amazon's KDP would put more pressure on the amt of $ paid out, but think how many more folk might sign up! All a gamble, best laid plans, all that 

Then offer a discounted bundle with all the goodies in Prime, movies (incl Harry Potter etc), music, shipping, original content, hmmmm...

All hinging turning on non-exclusivity for indies? Maybe.


----------



## beccaprice

someone on John Scalzui's blog suggested that this could be  goodide both for readers and writers of children's books, becausr children have a seemingly insatiable desire to be read / to read  a bok numeroous times, until they want a differrent book Right Now.  S parents of children will constntly be looking for new books, and since writers of children's books generally price their books lower, the $2 or so per book is pretty good.

I have half my books in Select (til the end of August) and half my books not in select, so this will be a pretty good test for whether this will work out for me.  So far, I seem to have a few borrows per day followed by a few sales the next day.  Given that i rarely get sales at all unless I'm actively advertisig, so far I'm ahead.


----------



## 75845

adanlerma said:


> And someone had mentioned that actually Scribd' & Oyster's full payout at 30% is a more sustainable plan than Amazon's 10%. But I don't know, Big Z has big pockets


That was me because Gaughran's claims that Scribd pay out at 10%, which is wrong as Scribd treat the first 10% at the equivalent of Amazon's Look Inside. You need an additional 20% read or 30% of the book to earn a read payment. Amazon's big pockets are a myth - they have a big turnover, but tiny profits. The last thing Amazon investors want to see is the company shelling out even more money to earn market share today and keep promising jam tomorrow. The 10% payout rate suggests that this is more about Amazon luring Scribd authors into Select than it is about luring Scribd readers into KU.


----------



## adanlerma

Mercia McMahon said:


> That was me because Gaughran's claims that Scribd pay out at 10%, which is wrong as Scribd treat the first 10% at the equivalent of Amazon's Look Inside. You need an additional 20% read or 30% of the book to earn a read payment. Amazon's big pockets are a myth - they have a big turnover, but tiny profits. The last thing Amazon investors want to see is the company shelling out even more money to earn market share today and keep promising jam tomorrow. The 10% payout rate suggests that this is more about Amazon luring Scribd authors into Select than it is about luring Scribd readers into KU.


Mercia, thank you so much for letting me know. It's an important point re sustainability (some blog comment threads are already spotted with Scribd and Oyster are doomed comments  )

Someone will probably point this out eventually, so I'll just add that the 10% threshold with Scribd pays out 1/10th. On a 99 cent book, with a 10% "browse" as they call it, I'll get 10% of the full 60% commission, ie, 6 cents.

It's a good model, encourages and rewards the author for a genuine attempt into the book by a reader.

Full pay, from Kindle Unlimited, for only a 10% read (or browse) is extremely generous.

Tempting enough to put my newest short into KU, but still nothing.

So even though, as you say, it's tempting (Scribd) authors -

It may still not be worth it, we'll see


----------



## Dom

Lady Vine said:


> For anyone else, decreasing the rate gradually would be the smartest option. But for Amazon, who knows the power it wields, I reckon they could reduce it by $0.50 - $1 and many would stay. What would happen is, in the beginning, the borrows would amount to the same revenue they were making in sales, but with more and more people joining the program, those borrows would be more evenly spread out. Then KU authors would find themselves stuck with that $1 royalty and reduced borrows.
> 
> You're right, though, we really don't know.


I think Amazon has a history of taking losses early on the gain market share. It's obvious so far with KU. A free month for everybody, and traditionally pubbed books being awarded a full royalty. It's a given that Amazon loses money on KU this month. The idea is that the next few months should normalize, with readers getting less books as excitement for the program wears down, and them shifting to the indie market.


----------



## Caddy

> There comes a point when this is reduced to vanity. I don't care how many books I sell. Show me the money.
> 
> "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity."


Yeah, which is why KU doesn't make sense for anyone with books over $2.99 and selling on other sites. I've had a decent July, which is way smaller than people in popular genres. Still, I've sold 6 times more than usual. And over half of that is from sites that are NOT Amazon. I'm not going to give that up so I can get a ranking. Because, even with my ranking falling, my sales have continued this week on Amazon. Again, I don't sell a whole lot, but it's better than usual by a long shot. I've been doing this almost 3 years and trying to jump on board that latest gimmick by the Zon doesn't work if you don't write super popular genres. You have to find that elusive reader base...and it isn't necessarily the KU crowd. Know youor readers.

But, hey. If things suck again later I might try it. I did try Select because I had no choice (I was with a publisher who insisted). As I suspected, it sucked for me. I sell more out of it. Or, who knows, I might write som shorter stuff in a popular genre and stick it in there. There is no harm in diversifying.


----------



## JRTomlin

Caddy said:


> Yeah, which is why KU doesn't make sense for anyone with books over $2.99 and selling on other sites. I've had a decent July, which is way smaller than people in popular genres. Still, I've sold 6 times more than usual. And over half of that is from sites that are NOT Amazon. I'm not going to give that up so I can get a ranking. Because, even with my ranking falling, my sales have continued this week on Amazon. Again, I don't sell a whole lot, but it's better than usual by a long shot. I've been doing this almost 3 years and trying to jump on board that latest gimmick by the Zon doesn't work if you don't write super popular genres. You have to find that elusive reader base...and it isn't necessarily the KU crowd. Know youor readers.
> 
> But, hey. If things suck again later I might try it. I did try Select because I had no choice (I was with a publisher who insisted). As I suspected, it sucked for me. I sell more out of it. Or, who knows, I might write som shorter stuff in a popular genre and stick it in there. There is no harm in diversifying.


I don't agree on the price point where Select makes sense, Caddy, because in my experience at least for the most point borrows don't cannibalize sales. Of course, I had a pretty long and fairly successful run in Select when it first came out before I took my novels out.

I had my novels out of Select for more than a year and a half. A few months ago when I withdrew them from other retailers and put them back in Select, there was absolutely no drop in sales on Amazon, so clearly the borrowers were people who would not have bought it. (Or else those sales were made up for somehow) My reasons for going back into Select I've discussed elsewhere, but I have lost no money from not being in the other retailer which may relate to genre.

Now will KU cause borrows to start cannibalizing sales? That is possible and it is something I will watch very closely, but it isn't by any means a given. People are drawing some conclusions for which they have no evidence.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

JRTomlin said:


> I don't agree on the price point where Select makes sense, Caddy, because in my experience at least for the most point borrows don't cannibalize sales. Of course, I had a pretty long and fairly successful run in Select when it first came out before I took my novels out.
> 
> I had my novels out of Select for more than a year and a half. A few months ago when I withdrew them from other retailers and put them back in Select, there was absolutely no drop in sales on Amazon, so clearly the borrowers were people who would not have bought it. (Or else those sales were made up for somehow) My reasons for going back into Select I've discussed elsewhere, but I have lost no money from not being in the other retailer which may relate to genre.
> 
> Now will KU cause borrows to start cannibalizing sales? That is possible and it is something I will watch very closely, but it isn't by any means a given. People are drawing some conclusions for which they have no evidence.


Thanks for this info, JR. I've often wondered about that. People say I am giving up a lot of sales, but it seems like if readers have heard of you, many will buy your books on Amazon even if they also buy on other sites. And my borrow patterns and comments from readers suggest that borrows do not cannibalize sales to any great extent. For me, the Select deal really HAS been about exposure and visibility, and those things have made all the difference.

The effect of KU remains to be seen. If it seems prudent, I'll change my strategy. Still too early to tell. But I appreciate your sharing your experience.

Oh--except the new novella, my books are 3.99 and 4.99.


----------



## Caddy

> I don't agree on the price point where Select makes sense, Caddy, because in my experience at least for the most point borrows don't cannibalize sales. Of course, I had a pretty long and fairly successful run in Select when it first came out before I took my novels out.
> 
> I had my novels out of Select for more than a year and a half. A few months ago when I withdrew them from other retailers and put them back in Select, there was absolutely no drop in sales on Amazon, so clearly the borrowers were people who would not have bought it. (Or else those sales were made up for somehow) My reasons for going back into Select I've discussed elsewhere, but I have lost no money from not being in the other retailer which may relate to genre.
> 
> Now will KU cause borrows to start cannibalizing sales? That is possible and it is something I will watch very closely, but it isn't by any means a given. People are drawing some conclusions for which they have no evidence.


I can certainly appreciate what you are saying, JR. I do think you mentioned elsewhere that the other sites weren't doing well for you so you went back into Select. Right now, I am making half of my income from other sites. It's a different story for me, and I guess I should have said "For me" as we are all different. I simply don't want to lose touch with those people who support me on other sites. Can they get a kindle app? Sure. Will they? Who knows. It just doesn't make sense to tell them "Hey, you're not important enough for me to care if you buy from me again or not" because I don't sell enough to not have them matter big time. Even if I did,one thing I did notice right away with my first Bookbub, and have noticed with 2 of the other 3 (one of them was exclusive to AMazon so it doesn't count) is that the B&N readers had a much higher percentage of series loyalty than the kindle downloaders did. I also know I've had more B&N readers reach out to me on Facebook and become very strong reader fans and friends, so I hate to just ditch their preferred platform.

If I quit selling on these other platforms it would no longer be part of the reason I don't want to do KU. Then I would have to rethink it. Select worked for you, it didn't for me. Granted, I got in too late and never wanted in in the first place.


----------



## 75845

adanlerma said:


> Someone will probably point this out eventually, so I'll just add that the 10% threshold with Scribd pays out 1/10th. On a 99 cent book, with a 10% "browse" as they call it, I'll get 10% of the full 60% commission, ie, 6 cents.


Of course that is 10% + 10% = 20%. You nothing for the first 10% of a book as that's just Looking Inside.


----------



## adanlerma

Mercia McMahon said:


> Of course that is 10% + 10% = 20%. You nothing for the first 10% of a book as that's just Looking Inside.


I think I read also, in some of the first info from Smashwords of how Scribd would work, that they measured the 10% from where the reading matter (vs front matter) began. Because it was pointed out that non-fiction might benefit some, esp if an internal TOC was included, because a reader could "jump" to items of interest further in the book, thus triggering a full read royalty at 20%.

No idea how that works though (technically with their computers).

I'd be very surprised if Amazon doesn't also use similar tech to know when to start the % read or such. But that' s just a guess on my part.

All my sales and even my free book have flat lined on Amazon, and my Scribd reads are doing well, so I may pull my one short I put in to KU. I hit the 3 day option period for Select later today. I really have hated not having it avail to the readers on other platforms.


----------



## Joseph Turkot

Finally caught up on this thread. I have to say, the fact that KU bumps ranking tempts me to throw something back in Select. I have no idea how long it takes for Draft2Digital to pull stuff down from other retailers, including Scribd where I have titles up (if you know how long, please chime in here!). I have seen sales dip since about the 20th, but I can't say for certain whether this is the cause. I fear it might be, but hope it isn't. 

I also hope this doesn't neuter Bookbub's potency. I have an ad running with them in August. Quiss's tail cut-off seems more than a coincidence. But like many have said, it's all too early to tell. For now we'll wait and see.


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

Considering Amazon's recent moves and possible future options, "Amazon stock plunges after $126 million quarterly loss" does not make me feel any better. Shareholders won't wait long to demand larger profit margins.

http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/amazon-stock-plunges-after-reporting-126-million-quarterly-loss/


----------



## I Give Up

Joseph Turkot said:


> I have no idea how long it takes for Draft2Digital to pull stuff down from other retailers, including Scribd where I have titles up (if you know how long, please chime in here!).


2 days for Barnes, 1 day for everything else.


----------



## starkllr

Saul Tanpepper said:


> Considering Amazon's recent moves and possible future options, "Amazon stock plunges after $126 million quarterly loss" does not make me feel any better. Shareholders won't wait long to demand larger profit margins.


They're projecting even bigger losses for the third quarter, too:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-24/amazon-loss-widens-as-bezos-keeps-spending-to-build-new-services.html

"Looking ahead, Amazon projected sales of $19.7 billion to $21.5 billion for the current quarter. Operating losses are projected to be $810 million to $410 million, Amazon said."


----------



## Joseph Turkot

> 2 days for Barnes, 1 day for everything else.


Thanks!


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Joseph Turkot said:


> Finally caught up on this thread. I have to say, the fact that KU bumps ranking tempts me to throw something back in Select. I have no idea how long it takes for Draft2Digital to pull stuff down from other retailers, including Scribd where I have titles up (if you know how long, please chime in here!). I have seen sales dip since about the 20th, but I can't say for certain whether this is the cause. I fear it might be, but hope it isn't.
> 
> I also hope this doesn't neuter Bookbub's potency. I have an ad running with them in August. Quiss's tail cut-off seems more than a coincidence. But like many have said, it's all too early to tell. For now we'll wait and see.


Choose wisely young grasshopper  I put a title in, had a single borrow since, and ranking has plummeted from 30k ish to >100k now


----------



## Cherise

Mercia McMahon said:


> The 10% payout rate suggests that this is more about Amazon luring Scribd authors into Select than it is about luring Scribd readers into KU.


Very astute observation. I agree.

Nevertheless, I am in the process of pulling my two lowest selling books out of other vendors so that I can give KU a try.


----------



## wtvr

starkllr said:


> They're projecting even bigger losses for the third quarter, too:
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-24/amazon-loss-widens-as-bezos-keeps-spending-to-build-new-services.html
> 
> "Looking ahead, Amazon projected sales of $19.7 billion to $21.5 billion for the current quarter. Operating losses are projected to be $810 million to $410 million, Amazon said."


This is how Amazon has always run. They're a growth business. Their income remains steady while revenues show a beautiful upward slope. Way back in the 90s there was much head-scratching about this, but apparently they're in it for the long haul.

Here's an article about it from 2 years ago, when streaming, kindle, and cloud computing came online, just for a fun trip in the wayback machine.
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/03/28/analysts-debate-is-amazoncom-a-top-stock.aspx


----------



## beccaprice

KU has been very good to me.  Usually I don't sell at all unless I've done some sort of promo - sine KU started, there hasn't been a single day when I havent ha at least one sale or borrow - and trust me, one sale a day is more than I usually get!


----------



## adanlerma

Joseph Turkot said:


> Finally caught up on this thread. I have to say, the fact that KU bumps ranking tempts me to throw something back in Select. I have no idea how long it takes for Draft2Digital to pull stuff down from other retailers, including Scribd where I have titles up (if you know how long, please chime in here!). I have seen sales dip since about the 20th, but I can't say for certain whether this is the cause. I fear it might be, but hope it isn't.
> 
> I also hope this doesn't neuter Bookbub's potency. I have an ad running with them in August. Quiss's tail cut-off seems more than a coincidence. But like many have said, it's all too early to tell. For now we'll wait and see.


Joseph, here's links to articles that speak to "whose" books get bumped in rankings in KU :

http://www.davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/kindle-unlimited-the-key-questions/

http://www.thepassivevoice.com/07/2014/kindle-unlimiteds-two-tier-system-makes-some-authors-second-class-citizens/

http://noorosha.com/kindleunlimited/

There's a lot of balanced pros and cons in each, some of it spelled out even more within the comment threads.

At times there's a bit of backlash vs some point or other by people not liking the new subscription viewed at as critically as Scribd or Oyster, but eventually things are discussed and viewpoints explained. Worth the read if you're really in a quandary.

Either way, best wishes for you Joseph!


----------



## JeffreyKafer

Just heard from a friend (who spoke with some folks at ACX) that ACX audiobooks will NOT be included in KU.


----------



## Victoria Champion

kward said:


> BOOM TIME FOR INDIES!!!
> 
> (just kidding)


That goes perfect with your avatar.


----------



## adanlerma

In all fairness, wanted to add that, vs one of my previous posts, sales of my titles in the regular Kindle Amazon store are no longer flatline. Erratic, but definitely a pulse.

My takeaway - as so many have said, too soon to say how Kindle Unlimited will play out.

It's still my hope it'll eventually allow indie writers to be non-exclusive.

I still believe Amazon would do great without exclusivity.

Amazon's more than good enough.


----------



## 75814

adanlerma said:


> It's still my hope it'll eventually allow indie writers to be non-exclusive.
> 
> I still believe Amazon would do great without exclusivity.
> 
> Amazon's more than good enough.


Amazon would do just fine without exclusivity. They're not pushing exclusivity because they feel they have to, but because they want to destroy the competition. As long as Kobo, iBooks, and Barnes & Noble sell ebooks, Amazon will continue to force exclusivity.


----------



## adanlerma

Perry Constantine said:


> Amazon would do just fine without exclusivity. They're not pushing exclusivity because they feel they have to, but because they want to destroy the competition. As long as Kobo, iBooks, and Barnes & Noble sell ebooks, Amazon will continue to force exclusivity.


I like the self assurance of your opinion. And you may be right 

But strategies and tactics change, and the targets Amazon may wish to dominate may make exclusivity of ebooks unnecessary, and problematic.

Non-exclusiveness is my hope. I don't claim more.

And I know Amazon doesn't need it.

Not to keep me.


----------



## Jonathan C. Gillespie

Perry Constantine said:


> Amazon would do just fine without exclusivity. They're not pushing exclusivity because they feel they have to, but because they want to destroy the competition. As long as Kobo, iBooks, and Barnes & Noble sell ebooks, Amazon will continue to force exclusivity.


Yep. And if/when those competitors dry up, there go the royalty rates.


----------



## 75814

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> Yep. And if/when those competitors dry up, there go the royalty rates.


Exactly. I've talked about this before, but I don't think it's unrealistic to imagine a world where Amazon says, "the 70% royalty rate is only for books that are enrolled in Select, otherwise you get 35% regardless of your price" (this is already the way it is for the Amazon stores in Japan, Brazil, India, and Mexico).


----------



## CraigInOregon

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> Yep. And if/when those competitors dry up, there go the royalty rates.


Logic fail.

First of all, there will always be competitors.

Who the competition is may change, but almost never goes away in a free market.

My first home videogame system was an Atari 2600. The main competitors to Atari, as I recall, were Colecovision and Intellivision. None of those companies make home videogame hardware today.

By the time I bought my second videogame system, the Nintendo Entertainment System, the competitors were the upstart Sega and I think Intellivision was still trying to hang on.

I switched to Sega, choosing the Genesis instead of the SNES. Companies like TurboGrafx and others came and went. Atari tried to revive itself with the Jaguar... and failed.

Sony appeared for the first time with it's PlayStation in the next round, competing with Nintendo and a struggling Sega.

In the PS2 generation, Nintendo stuck around, but Sega exited hardware and the first generation of Microsoft Xbox appeared.

Last I checked, Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft were still ubiquitous, with varying degrees of success. But other competitors have come and gone in the last 15 years or so. Most recently, the Ouya, which is essentially dead.

And yet, tablet/smartphone games are huge right now, even as consoles hang on despite being vastly more expensive. In another decade, one has to wonder if console gaming will even be much of a market anymore, compared to tablet/smartphone games.

My point?

There is always competition. The players change, at times. Delivery platforms change. But there is always competition in a free market.

Translation: fearing the fall of ebook royalty rates because all competition dries up and blows away is kind of like fearing the zombie apocalypse because The Walking Dead is so popular.


----------



## Jonathan C. Gillespie

CraigInOregon said:


> Logic fail.
> 
> First of all, there will always be competitors.
> 
> Who the competition is may change, but almost never goes away in a free market.


Okay. I see your example of home consoles, and I raise you your local cable provider.

See, I think Amazon could whiff along just fine for a few years while waiting for a substantial competitor to come along. They could afford to sink royalty rates while they did so. It's like the cable oligopolies right now. Sure, they're dinosaurs waiting to die, but you're stuck with them for now, and the rules they set.


----------



## Guest

So I threw a few titles in select recently. Only a few days, but the verdict is = KU is cannibalizing sales. As predicted. I'll admit, I thought it wouldn't be as obvious as it is on my sales report, but there you have it.


----------



## adanlerma

ShaneJeffery said:


> So I threw a few titles in select recently. Only a few days, but the verdict is = KU is cannibalizing sales. As predicted. I'll admit, I thought it wouldn't be as obvious as it is on my sales report, but there you have it.


Shane, it almost can't be helped. Folk try and, usually, like the subscription plans, Scribd's Oyster's KU's, and -

Much like DVD users found in regard to Netflix (and this is where the real comparison is) folk are more free to experiment with titles, and more reluctant to buy individual titles.


----------



## adanlerma

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> Okay. I see your example of home consoles, and I raise you your local cable provider.
> 
> See, I think Amazon could whiff along just fine for a few years while waiting for a substantial competitor to come along. They could afford to sink royalty rates while they did so. It's like the cable oligopolies right now. Sure, they're dinosaurs waiting to die, but you're stuck with them for now, and the rules they set.


Nice example. Tried to think of one yesterday and was side-tracked, thanks!

Also a really good post on blindly taking sides with either Hachette or Amazon in their on-going dispute.

Very brave article, good links and info, and growing comment thread :

http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/07/30/think-amazon-friend-might-amazon-infatuation-syndrome/#.U9pJZEi0ZiI


----------



## WDR

If there is one thing that kills businesses it is when they become so large they can't change the way they do business.

As Craig said above, there will always be competition. There will always be little companies that can step up, leverage a niche that the oversized company is either ignoring or can't quite get a grip on, and that little company will begin to grow. Amazon, as well as any other ebook retailer, runs the risk of losing their pool of self-publishing authors. It could be by another company offering authors a better terms. If authors feel they can get better treatment or a better deal elsewhere, they will.

So who can compete with Amazon? The answer may be surprising to people, because many dismiss the company as being disinterested in getting serious about ebook sales and this company has a disproportionately small representation in ebook sales compared to its size. Yet, this company has the largest technology base to work with as an ebook foundation like no other company. This company sells more mobile devices than ALL other companies combined.

Who is this company and what did they do that should have Amazon in a cold sweat? It's Apple. And Apple just bought Booklamp.

Knowing what Booklamp does, I take this as a sign that Apple is about to get deadly serious about going toe-to-toe with Amazon in the ebook market.


----------



## Guest

adanlerma said:


> Shane, it almost can't be helped. Folk try and, usually, like the subscription plans, Scribd's Oyster's KU's, and -
> 
> Much like DVD users found in regard to Netflix (and this is where the real comparison is) folk are more free to experiment with titles, and more reluctant to buy individual titles.


Well, there's a difference between not selling titles and having them borrowed, and selling titles that are being borrowed instead of being sold. I wouldn't say I'm convinced yet about it, as this data is just for a few titles that were on the slump anyway, but I am very reluctant to put anything new into KU. Yeah. It's only an add on bonus to hold your position on the charts if you're already there. As far as I can tell.


----------



## wtvr

WDR said:


> Who is this company and what did they do that should have Amazon in a cold sweat? It's Apple. And Apple just bought Booklamp.
> 
> Knowing what Booklamp does, I take this as a sign that Apple is about to get deadly serious about going toe-to-toe with Amazon in the ebook market.


I hope you're right. A real competitor to Zon would accelerate acceptance like crazy. And Apple needs to do something to improve customer experience... This could be great.

My KU and sales are both up, but that's small potatoes to slightly less small potatoes.


----------



## meowbiscuit

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> Okay. I see your example of home consoles, and I raise you your local cable provider.
> 
> See, I think Amazon could whiff along just fine for a few years while waiting for a substantial competitor to come along. They could afford to sink royalty rates while they did so. It's like the cable oligopolies right now. Sure, they're dinosaurs waiting to die, but you're stuck with them for now, and the rules they set.


I would add on this particular example, however, that these particular monopolies were aided by government passed regulation and back room deals - all of which are pretty public knowledge at this point. Until Amazon starts getting in bed with the government in such a fashion, that's unlikely to happen.

Not that it *can't* happen, but it hasn't gotten to that point just yet. The telecom monopolies are a monster unto themselves and took years and lots of dirty backdoor dealing with lobbyists and politicians to make those situations reality.


----------



## meowbiscuit

WDR said:


> If there is one thing that kills businesses it is when they become so large they can't change the way they do business.
> 
> As Craig said above, there will always be competition. There will always be little companies that can step up, leverage a niche that the oversized company is either ignoring or can't quite get a grip on, and that little company will begin to grow. Amazon, as well as any other ebook retailer, runs the risk of losing their pool of self-publishing authors. It could be by another company offering authors a better terms. If authors feel they can get better treatment or a better deal elsewhere, they will.
> 
> So who can compete with Amazon? The answer may be surprising to people, because many dismiss the company as being disinterested in getting serious about ebook sales and this company has a disproportionately small representation in ebook sales compared to its size. Yet, this company has the largest technology base to work with as an ebook foundation like no other company. This company sells more mobile devices than ALL other companies combined.
> 
> Who is this company and what did they do that should have Amazon in a cold sweat? It's Apple. And Apple just bought Booklamp.
> 
> Knowing what Booklamp does, I take this as a sign that Apple is about to get deadly serious about going toe-to-toe with Amazon in the ebook market.


Exactly this.

In the past, Apple's main competitor was Microsoft. That's no longer true. While Microsoft still has a pretty steady hold on PC platforms, Apple long left them in the dust where the major innovation is taking place with regards to mobile and content delivery.

Their main competitors are now Amazon and Google. What we see come out of all of these companies in the coming years is going to be verrrrrrry interesting. Not just with publishing and content delivery but also everything from personal health to basic communication. Don't count out Facebook, either. We see it as a social media platform, but with the way they've been buying up numerous applications and properties lately, it stands to reason that they're positioning themselves to become their own media goliath.

Nobody has this game in the bag. Battles have been won, but that's about it.


----------



## Caddy

WDR said:


> If there is one thing that kills businesses it is when they become so large they can't change the way they do business.
> 
> As Craig said above, there will always be competition. There will always be little companies that can step up, leverage a niche that the oversized company is either ignoring or can't quite get a grip on, and that little company will begin to grow. Amazon, as well as any other ebook retailer, runs the risk of losing their pool of self-publishing authors. It could be by another company offering authors a better terms. If authors feel they can get better treatment or a better deal elsewhere, they will.
> 
> So who can compete with Amazon? The answer may be surprising to people, because many dismiss the company as being disinterested in getting serious about ebook sales and this company has a disproportionately small representation in ebook sales compared to its size. Yet, this company has the largest technology base to work with as an ebook foundation like no other company. This company sells more mobile devices than ALL other companies combined.
> 
> Who is this company and what did they do that should have Amazon in a cold sweat? It's Apple. And Apple just bought Booklamp.
> 
> Knowing what Booklamp does, I take this as a sign that Apple is about to get deadly serious about going toe-to-toe with Amazon in the ebook market.


Yes, Apple buying booklamp was discussed in Writers' Cafe a few days ago, maybe last week. I have a friend who's father-in-law is one of the top people at Apple. This friend asked me last year if I had my books in I-tunes and said, if not I should because his father-in-law said they were making plans to make their books easier to find and download and want to go head to head with Amazon eventually. Guess who wins that battle?  Apple has way more money.


----------



## adanlerma

Caddy said:


> Yes, Apple buying booklamp was discussed in Writers' Cafe a few days ago, maybe last week. I have a friend who's father-in-law is one of the top people at Apple. This friend asked me last year if I had my books in I-tunes and said, if not I should because his father-in-law said they were making plans to make their books easier to find and download and want to go head to head with Amazon eventually. Guess who wins that battle?  Apple has way more money.


Caddy, do you have a link to that thread? Thanks!


----------



## Davout73

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> Okay. I see your example of home consoles, and I raise you your local cable provider.


Well, theres Always Dish, or U-Verse. Or failing that, you ditch it and go online, pay maybe $40 a month for Netflix, Hulu, and maybe HBO.

But the I have Google Fiber, and after years of Time Warner I couldn't be happier.



> See, I think Amazon could whiff along just fine for a few years while waiting for a substantial competitor to come along. They could afford to sink royalty rates while they did so. It's like the cable oligopolies right now. Sure, they're dinosaurs waiting to die, but you're stuck with them for now, and the rules they set.


But there's options (at least in most locales).

A Better example would be your local power of gas company.

Dav


----------



## WDR

So, with all the noise about Kindle Unlimited and the Amazon & Hachette war, did anyone notice the nuclear-tipped torpedo that Apple just brought to the fray?

We're all so worried about Kindle Unlimited possibly being Amazon's way of tightening the noose around the independent writers' necks, but maybe something better has just come along. How about a recommendation system that truly encourages book discovery? That's what BookLamp does. It could make the difference for bottom-list writers such as myself who would otherwise have no chance in KOLL or KU.

So, I've taken my opinion and put it out there about Apple's BookLamp acquisition and what I think it means for us. Especially bottom-list writers like me. 

(Warning: I admit there is a little shameless self-promotion going on in my blog entry, but I think it helps get my point across...)
(And perhaps I was getting a little tired and punchy while I wrote it. Probably not my best work.)


----------



## wtvr

Great post! Glad to see somebody has some enthusiasm about the market in general, not just hoisting a banner!


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Its August here in merry ol' England. Results for the month are... 4 borrows in KU... wah, wah, wah... Silence. One clap. Mumbling amongst the audience, some laughter... Heckling now "Get off! Boo!"


----------



## Caddy

adanlerma said:


> Caddy, do you have a link to that thread? Thanks!





adanlerma said:


> Caddy, do you have a link to that thread? Thanks!


I'm sorry, I don't. I typed in booklamp and it didn't come up. I guess you could look through the last several pages. It was within the last week. Sorry I'm not more help.


----------



## Saul Tanpepper

adanlerma said:


> Caddy, do you have a link to that thread? Thanks!


It's here:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,190651.0.html


----------



## adanlerma

WDR said:


> So, with all the noise about Kindle Unlimited and the Amazon & Hachette war, did anyone notice the nuclear-tipped torpedo that Apple just brought to the fray?
> 
> We're all so worried about Kindle Unlimited possibly being Amazon's way of tightening the noose around the independent writers' necks, but maybe something better has just come along. How about a recommendation system that truly encourages book discovery? That's what BookLamp does. It could make the difference for bottom-list writers such as myself who would otherwise have no chance in KOLL or KU...


Thanks WDR, have bookmarked your linked post, looks interesting.

Like "could make the difference for bottom-list writers" -

That's me too, ha! (smiles)


----------



## adanlerma

Saul Tanpepper said:


> It's here:
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,190651.0.html


Saul, Caddy, thank you for the responses - have bookmarked the thread, will try and catch up the posts later today.

I'm way behind usual stuff today, went to a SilverSneakers seniors' exercise class today with my wife, then grocery shopping - how'd the exercise make me feel? Well, I bought an oversize bagel and a huge cheese roll and already eaten the latter (lunch is still coming) 

ps - should add, this is for a link to a thread about Apple improving their ebook business


----------



## Nell Gavin

There are millions of posts about Kindle Unlimited, and I just have one question without any idea of what keywords to put in to search for the information.

I noticed a KU sale(-ish) that appeared DAYS after the sale(-ish) date. In fact, I'd gotten others for later dates before this one displayed. Do these things not appear in KDP until after the reader reads past a certain number of chapters? And then display as of the download date?


----------



## CraigInOregon

Just wanted to point out that, in my emailbox today, Amazon announced that they were increasing the KU/KOLL pot for August from $2M to $2.5M, due to "high demand."

Translation?

Last month's pot resulted, apparently, in a payout of around $1.81 per borrow. I'm expecting this is intended to make sure it goes no lower than that, and probably they are hoping to nudge it back up over $2.00.


----------



## CraigInOregon

Nell Gavin said:


> There are millions of posts about Kindle Unlimited, and I just have one question without any idea of what keywords to put in to search for the information.
> 
> I noticed a KU sale(-ish) that appeared DAYS after the sale(-ish) date. In fact, I'd gotten others for later dates before this one displayed. Do these things not appear in KDP until after the reader reads past a certain number of chapters? And then display as of the download date?


Nell,

My best guess... and it's only a guess... is this:

In KU, you can "borrow" a book at any time. That generates the date it was borrowed.

But in KU, you're not given a borrow credit/payout until the reader reaches 10 percent complete in their reading progress of the manuscript.

So it's a different dynamic. Conceivable, a KU subscriber could officially download your book today, August 14, on their Kindle. But if they don't open it and start reading until September 11, and they don't hit 10 percent complete until September 12, then you won't get the KU "borrow" share until September 12.

Also, if a reader "borrows" a book in KU but never reads it and decides to delete it a few weeks later, you get nothing for that at all. They never reached 10 percent complete, so it's not considered a "sale."

But at least with KU, there are no "returns" per se. No one will be buying your short story, reading it quickly, then returning it and demanding a refund because they "bought it by mistake."  If they read at least 10 percent of it, you get paid.

That's my educated guess.

I could be wrong.


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek

It also seems that the initial download affects the book's ranking,so it can be confusing.

I had several books jump ranking early on in the program, but they didn't appear in my reports until a week or so later.






Edit: Corrections needed because it's early here and I haven't had any caffeine yet...


----------



## anotherpage

As long as i get my 75% I don't care lol But it better not be 75% of 5 cents


----------



## anotherpage

I still don't get this.

1. Are you AUTOMATICALLY in the KU program by having your books on KDP? or do they need to be in select?
2. What percentage of sales do you get from the KU program? i.e if you are selling a book at $2.99 how much do you get?
3. What is the census? Yay or Nay?


----------



## Sapphire

kalel said:


> I still don't get this.
> 
> 1. Are you AUTOMATICALLY in the KU program by having your books on KDP? or do they need to be in select?
> 2. What percentage of sales do you get from the KU program? i.e if you are selling a book at $2.99 how much do you get?
> 3. What is the census? Yay or Nay?


1- You are automatically in the KU program ONLY IF YOU ARE IN SELECT.
2- Everyone receives the same amount from a KU borrow REGARDLESS of the price of the book. The amount comes from a pool established by Amazon which is divided among all borrows. The amount is UNKNOWN until the middle of the following month. (History has shown this amount to be close to $2 but that history may or may not repeat itself.)
3- There is no consensus. Some writers love the program and dive in. Some hate it and run in the other direction. Some split their risk by putting some of their work in and keeping the rest out in order to go for wide distribution.


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## Harmonious

Yikes. Is this new? So the only way of opting out is to go for the 35% royalty?

Can I opt my title out of Kindle Book Lending? .* Titles in the 70% royalty option must participate in Kindle Book Lending and may not opt out. *

https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A2JGI9S4FDM39Q


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## 75814

Harmonious said:


> Yikes. Is this new? So the only way of opting out is to go for the 35% royalty?
> 
> Can I opt my title out of Kindle Book Lending? .* Titles in the 70% royalty option must participate in Kindle Book Lending and may not opt out. *
> 
> https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A2JGI9S4FDM39Q


This is something different from KU. Book lending just means that if you buy a Kindle book, you can let someone else borrow it for a maximum of fourteen days.


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## Harmonious

Ah phew, OK, thanks...


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