# Anyone else thinking of hanging up their self-publishing boots?



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

*UPDATE ON PAGE 10*

This has nothing to do with giving up writing, but it is a gloomy post.

I've been self-publishing since 2011, with one more book almost complete and two more in the pipeline, both 25,000 words in with 75,000 to go on each.

Although I've had some minor successes and all my work except my latest has earned out, this last year has been dismal especially since the introduction of KU and the trad-publishers getting a handle of competing with self-publishers at their own game. Christmas was pathetic for me with less than $10 earned and that has made me give serious consideration to hanging up my self-publishing boots and going back to submitting to agents or nothing. January is faring better with $37 in the pot so far, but sales have dried up again. This last year I have made more money from formatting eBooks and POD than I have from writing.

I've made all the mistakes self-publishers make and over the years, I like to think I have come of age regarding what it takes to put out a quality product.

With my last book, Deadly Journey, I had it for crit on a writer's site for feedback as a WIP until complete. On the site, I had some help with the blurb for someone whose job used to be writing back cover blurbs for published books. Had an edit and a proofread. Four Beta readers gave it the once over and gave it their thumbs up (not family), providing valuable feedback for last minute changes. One of them was a top 500 Amazon reviewer. Also used a professional cover designer.

I put it on a site for reviews 1 month prior to publication. Sent out arcs. When I hit the button, I used all my social media for promotion and next zilch in sales.

I don't think I am the be all and end all when it comes to writing (and promotion), but I like to think that I am proficient enough to write a good thriller worth reading. (Maybe not). I've given up on the 99c profile for full length works to make sales and set a price of $4.99 on my last book, especially when considering the investment required and time taken to write the book. Price could have something to do with it, but then that should have made it attractive to KU readers, but borrows have been slow to none existent some weeks. Free promotions no longer works for me to boost after sales, with most days producing as little as 25 downloads.

When I consider the social media activity on forums such as on here, I get the impression that there are many like me who are floundering, with the same thoughts, but reluctant to share their lack of sales success for their self-doubt to be paraded in front of readers. I am also guessing here that many have given up self-publishing over the last year to eighteen months, having scratched the itch.

Anyone else in the same position, or have thoughts to share on the subject?


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Oh, I'm happy to share my floundering. Then I go back and I write some more. I've got 4 book in the pipeline right now. I really want to see how they look when they are done.

If I could pay someone to market for me, I would. Marketing has never been my thing.

I think that the decision on hanging the boots up all boils down to pleasure? Do you enjoy writing novels? Then continue. If you aren't happy with writing them, then stop. At the moment, I am happy writing and unhappy with marketing and income.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I get where you're coming from. Over the last [almost] three years, I've put out three books, and sold just over 300 copies all together.

I'd be more disheartened already, but all the material I've self-published so far was already written (a collection of my previously published short stories, my old MPhil thesis, and a translation on which I did most of the work back in 2009). So, frankly, it wasn't much work, and it was nice to get stuff out to new audiences, and I have a day job anyway to take care of the money side. But now I've got together a bunch of material and I'm ready to collate a new collection of shorts...

... And I'm just not sure it's worth the effort, to be honest.

With two anthology appearances coming up, around which I've timed the anthology's release, and a new translation due at the end of the year through a small press, I'm sort of committed to doing it. But I've slightly lost sight of why I'd want to.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

Douglas Milewski said:


> Oh, I'm happy to share my floundering. Then I go back and I write some more. I've got 4 book in the pipeline right now. I really want to see how they look when they are done.
> 
> If I could pay someone to market for me, I would. Marketing has never been my thing.
> 
> I think that the decision on hanging the boots up all boils down to pleasure? Do you enjoy writing novels? Then continue. If you aren't happy with writing them, then stop. At the moment, I am happy writing and unhappy with marketing and income.


I'm trying a completely different tactic with my marketing this year. Last year, it was all about getting on email lists. I find I get a ranking boost, but I think those people put off reading my book for a while... So instead I'm going to where people who might like my kind of books go on the internet, and I'm exploring Wattpad as well.
I think, for the OP, going wide with the books might be just the shot in the arm needed...


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I guess it's fair to say that I'd be writing whether or not I was heading over to Amazon to make new thumbnail covers for forum people to ignore. I'm more than happy to write for pleasure without submitting a sausage to a self-publishing platform, trad publisher, competition, agent, whatever.


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## Darren Kirby (Oct 6, 2014)

Sounds like you're at a point where you need to re-evaluate what you want from writing.  I'm fairing about as good as you, with a few less titles, but that's okay for me where it doesn't sound like it's okay for you.  What were your goals before?  Were those goals ones you can attain through your own effort, or do they rely on outside forces to happen?  What I mean is, if your goal was to SELL thousands of books, that's a tough goal because you can't control what people will do.  If your goal was to write 3 novels a year, that's a goal you can attain because you have direct control over it (for the most part; life still happens).  Even if you set goals but don't meet them, does that mean you failed?  Hardly!  Just your progress towards that goal is further than most other people ever dream about.

Ask yourself if what you are doing with writing is satisfying.  Perhaps it once was, but isn't any more.  That's okay, but you need to be honest with yourself.  Once you are, you'll feel really happy with your decision, whatever it is.  Cheers!


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

I imagine we'll either be seeing a lot of posts like this in the coming months or just seeing names slowly fading from the radar. 

I'm pretty sure we've tapped out the "boom" of this new industry.  It's a rapidly maturing and saturating marketing.  I don't think we're going to have a "bust" like other industries, which ended up bringing doom and gloom to the economy, but the bust here will be lots of people hanging up their hats. 

My hope is that those who do decide to move on, do so with pride, having given this industry a go and put their all into it.  There's no shame to be had in that. My hat is off to anyone who put effort into following a dream.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I'll miss you!  Most writers don't make a living writing books, and if some do, it's usually only for a few years. Look at the struggles Mark Twain had! Shakespeare made money off his Globe theater, not his writing. Look at any famous writer outside the blockbuster 70s and 80s. Some of the best, most famous authors I know "teach" on the side, otherwise they couldn't pay their bills. Those that used to make close to 100k a year in advance ten years ago are super lucky if they make 40K now or  haven't been dropped by their agents. No one talks about this, because it's embarrassing for most. 
I just finished a book last night by an author with several best selling series out, (a NYT bestselling author a few times), where she admits in the back of the book that writing has been a total roller coaster of good advances, then nothing for a year or two, then a good advance, then having problems paying the electric bill. We're talking over a twenty+ year career.

Sure, we're seeing some breakout authors with some *break out* years, but the truth is...for most it's just that *a few good years*.  I hope they are saving most of their earnings for slow years or a changing business climate.

Write because you love to write. Because you have stories to tell. But making a consistent living writing has always been a tough nut to crack, and while a few prolific authors achieve it, it's not anywhere near the number of authors who try.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

It's not a question of not liking or wanting to write. I am highly motivated in that regard. 

I guess I am a practical person, in that self-publishing (Not writing which I love) for me is fine,as long as I can see a return of investment as unfortunately, I don't have deep pockets. I'd rather not put out a work without going through the steps I mentioned prior to publication for the sake of seeing it for sale with a nice thumbnail, or having the POD book on my bookshelf - warts and all. 

The changes in the market place seem to me to be heading in the direction of diminishing returns for all but a few self-publishers. 

I can appreciate this is not true for everyone and that some people will be making a healthy return with differing bench marks as to what is considered a healthy return. I just think that it is becoming more difficult to do so, but many don't like to say, so it is hard to get a handle on where the market is going.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2015)

Yes. It's the marketing that is killing me. If I could find a publisher that would do that for me, I'd jump at the chance to just do the writing. My current one does some, but not all. As it is I may go back to ghostwriting and documentation. The pay is better.


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## Christian Price (Aug 3, 2012)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I imagine we'll either be seeing a lot of posts like this in the coming months or just seeing names slowly fading from the radar.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we've tapped out the "boom" of this new industry. It's a rapidly maturing and saturating marketing. I don't think we're going to have a "bust" like other industries, which ended up bringing doom and gloom to the economy, but the bust here will be lots of people hanging up their hats.
> 
> My hope is that those who do decide to move on, do so with pride, having given this industry a go and put their all into it. There's no shame to be had in that. My hat is off to anyone who put effort into following a dream.


I agree.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

I'm nowhere near making a living off my writing and before I started self-publishing, I'd spend hours upon hours upon hours writing fanfiction. So I won't be quitting any time soon. Even if I never sell another book, I'll still keep putting out material until I do and then I'll put out some more.


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## Peter Spenser (Jan 26, 2012)

If you go into this profession to make money you have to have a high degree of business acumen, and the mental and physical drive, to make a go of it. Not everyone does. You have to remember that 80% of all small businesses (and you should think of this as a small business) go out of business within the first 18 months:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericwagner/2013/09/12/five-reasons-8-out-of-10-businesses-fail/

If yours is not doing well, you are not alone, though that is cold comfort, I know.

Even more important for an author is the fact that not everyone has a writing "voice" that connects with a high number of readers. Despite the anti-elitist attitude of those who rail against the "gatekeeper" system of traditional publishing, at least an experienced editor would know if the manuscript that he was looking at had _some_ chance of making that connection. And he would also have some marketing money to do it.

That editor was not always right, of course. We can all point to books that we've known that were dismal failures. But many (most?) of the self-published authors today do not have that experience to have some idea of what connects widely and what doesn't. (Even using beta readers is an imperfect system.) Nor do they have much (any?) of a marketing budget, let alone much (any?) marketing know-how.

All of this is neither good nor bad. It just is what it is. The result, though, is that many authors will not make money with their writings. They have to be satisfied with the fact that their work is at least out there to be seen, to be read, to be enjoyed (or not) by anyone who can find it.

At least that's something. It certainly is more than we all had before.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I imagine we'll either be seeing a lot of posts like this in the coming months or just seeing names slowly fading from the radar.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we've tapped out the "boom" of this new industry. It's a rapidly maturing and saturating marketing. I don't think we're going to have a "bust" like other industries, which ended up bringing doom and gloom to the economy, but the bust here will be lots of people hanging up their hats.
> 
> My hope is that those who do decide to move on, do so with pride, having given this industry a go and put their all into it. There's no shame to be had in that. My hat is off to anyone who put effort into following a dream.


Rick, I think you have nailed it with that post.

I know that I can move on with pride. I have a couple of milestones that have been worth far more than monetary reward. One was an interview by the English class at a University over here in Brazil where they discussed my work followed by a question and answer session with the students.

The other was getting my compilation of short stories into the top 1500 in the UK back in 2012. It was good fun jostling for position in the top 5 category charts for shorts with the likes of Stephen King, Agatha Christie, Lee Child, Edgar Allan Poe etc. (UK). Not bad for short stories which are a tough nut to crack. So, Yes, if I decide to bow out, my head will be held high.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Peter Spenser said:


> If you go into this profession to make money you have to have a high degree of business acumen, and the mental and physical drive, to make a go of it. Not everyone does. You have to remember that 80% of all small businesses (and you should think of this as a small business) go out of business within the first 18 months:
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericwagner/2013/09/12/five-reasons-8-out-of-10-businesses-fail/
> 
> ...


Entertainment value and voice are really not what I am talking about. One man's meat is another mans poison and really doesn't come into the scope of the post.

You are right in regarding it as a business. When I say I am practical, I have been in business most of my working life and know when enough is enough before the hole is too big to climb out of without slipping down the sides again. I separate my love of writing with a no nonsense business approach. I always have and always will. Writing is something I will never stop. How I seek to put it out there (or not) is what I am considering as a change of direction.


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## martyns (May 8, 2014)

You should write for enjoyment. There's no guarantee of earning any money - even from great writing.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Declan -

Hey there friend!  From what I have experienced, moving to the higher price points is like starting over as far as the readership is concerned. If you think of the price points at stratified layers of the book buying ecosystem, it's almost like you started over.

For whatever reason, the research I have been doing in multiple genres is showing that there is great benefit to timing TWO or more releases within weeks of each other. Primarily, two-three weeks between two releases, and then a third with 2 months or less of the last title. That seems to be one way to start the visibility of Amazon's algorithms to jumpstart an author.

I hope that helps and don't give up. It looks like your original success was when you were publishing shorter works on a consistent basis. Some authors are still reporting earnings there if they can find a toe hold in the short reads and continuously feed a readership in need.


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## Lisa J. Yarde (Jul 15, 2010)

To the OP

Misery loves company; I've felt like this in the past years as sales plummeted and then as I compared 2014's sales and income to last year's. I'd say as others did; evaluate where you are and think about where you want to be. Not tomorrow or a year from now, but the long view. If you publish more books, at some point you would have had to do this evaluation and perhaps re-invention, because as we've all seen, nothing in this business lasts forever. For every new buyer who discovers your existing thrillers, you have the opportunity with the number of books you have to potentially interest them in buying more. Is it time to pull away from all that or look at things from another approach? Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Hi there - so sorry that things have been difficult. Elizabeth is right though, higher price points lead you to a whole new audience. And all the audiences have changed since 2011.

I don't do covers in your genre so there is nothing self serving in this comment, but I think you need to re-evaluate your covers. What worked before is probably not working now as both readers and authors are much more savvy about cover design now. Beautiful covers aren't a magic bullet, but they can be the first step in completely re-evaluating your marketing.

That said, I have been an actress, singer, artist and photographer before I was a writer. My greatest love is singing, but I have achieved far more success as a writer. That's hard because I had dreams of being a famous singer when I was younger, and I did everything 'right'. But there are no guarantees in any creative profession, even when you do everything 'right'. You have to just love what you do.

And why not send off to some agents? You can keep working on your books already published and shine them up a bit and send a manuscript off to an agent if you want. The odds are just as bad for success with that, but why not have more than one iron in the fire! The more you put yourself out there, the more you put the odds slightly more in your favor. I'm all for zigging and zagging when you reach a roadblock.


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## Sarah09 (Dec 14, 2014)

You are right. Quite gloomy.

Someone else said that it might be time to go wide. That'd probably be a wise decision. What else do you have to lose if exclusivity with Amazon isn't treaitng you well? 

I believe you are correct in that there are many people who give up within two years. This industry is not easy to break into. Some of it is just luck. Always has been in this industry whether it is traditional publishing or indie. 

I'd like to see your experiences of going wide.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I don't think you can make it in this business if you don't write serials or series ... if you're not going to do that, I would search high and low for a traditional publisher who can get you into bookstores, Target, Walmart, etc.


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## martyns (May 8, 2014)

As another thought, perhaps I WOULD hang up my self-publishing boots if I secured representation and a print deal for something!

I like writing, but I'm not so keen on managing, promoting, all that stuff


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## daffodils321 (Oct 31, 2014)

I don't think it has to be either or. If it were me I'd probably shop stuff around to agents first and then after a predetermined period of time self-publish. 

I read the first couple of paragraphs of your newest book. Your writing is definitely solid. You might want to think about analyzing the market more and seeing if you can find an unfilled or unserved niche. I know I've missed quite a few genre conventions in my first series that hurt me. I don't know anything about thrillers so maybe you are already doing this but just a thought.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

LisaGrace said:


> Most writers don't make a living writing books, and if some do, it's usually only for a few years. Look at the struggles Mark Twain had! Shakespeare made money off his Globe theater, not his writing. Look at any famous writer outside the blockbuster 70s and 80s. Some of the best, most famous authors I know "teach" on the side, otherwise they couldn't pay their bills. Those that used to make close to 100k a year in advance ten years ago are super lucky if they make 40K now or haven't been dropped by their agents. No one talks about this, because it's embarrassing for most.
> 
> Sure, we're seeing some breakout authors with some *break out* years, but the truth is...for most it's just that *a few good years*. I hope they are saving most of their earnings for slow years or a changing business climate.
> 
> Write because you love to write. Because you have stories to tell. But making a consistent living writing has always been a tough nut to crack, and while a few prolific authors achieve it, it's not anywhere near the number of authors who try.


This!


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

As many historical authors only had one or two big books, I figure that I can keep putting words into the literary slot machine and hope for a jackpot.

As I keep writing, I (presume) that my books get better. I will continue follow the strategy of producing a "good damned read", until one day, I produce that good damned read. My day job pays well and the time overhead per day isn't that much. It's a cheap business to pursue. I can keep costs low until I get money rolling in, and then I can use that money to pay for upgrades, such as better covers and better blurbs.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> I don't think you can make it in this business if you don't write serials or series ...


I'm *so* glad nobody tried to tell me that before I started doing so!


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Yeah, this Christmas has been dismal, but one of my other names seems to have found a small niche where their books continue to be bought/borrowed months after release. I think I'll have to keep writing more of those.


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## Amanda Hough (Feb 17, 2014)

Declan,

Don't give up. I wish you luck and readership.

A


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## Gene Bathurst (Dec 3, 2014)

I just got my self-publishing boots. Haven't even broken them in yet, really, but in the last month I've learned a lot on kboards. If I were approaching all this from a business perspective, I'd have researched the market first. Instead I did it backwards. And rather than doing a series of shorter books, as seems to be the fashion today, I put out a big honker.

Sales have been non-existent. I'm not surprised, and I imagine my promotional efforts will take some time to have any effect, if ever.

A number of threads on the forum emphasize production and speed as necessities to make it as a professional writer. They border on being militant about it, but they're right. Dickens was prolific. All the writers in the pulp era churned out stories in order to pay their rents. Only a few exceptional people can get by writing one book every five years (I'm lookin' at you, GRR!).

But taking on a punishing workload when there is no financial return could destroy your love for writing. A lot of people are reluctant to pursue their hobby/passion as a business for that very reason. 80% of small businesses fail. It's risky.

I look at my writing and tastes and wonder: is my work is more David Lynch, or Steven Spielberg? Niche or populist? If I naturally write to a wide audience, investing copious amounts of time writing is probably a good bet. If I am more of an, ahem, acquired taste, then even if I'm insanely successful in my chosen genre, the limited reach of my work would make living on it very difficult. 

Spielberg plays with budgets in the hundreds of millions, while Lynch is lucky to scrape together ten. 

I see two paths: either pursue writing as a hobby / side biz at a pace that you enjoy, or go all in and write until your fingers fall off, and hope to make a career of it. And even then you may not succeed.

It's a gamble, either way.  

I can probably put out a book a year without wearing myself to the bone. More if I switch gears and aim for short serial books of, say, 35,000 words each. But then, by the time I finish those, the market will have shifted again... 

cheers,
Gene


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

carinasanfey said:


> I wish people on kboards would stop saying "Write in this genre, it will definitely sell; don't write in this one, it definitely won't," or "Write books of this length, not this other length. This is the only length successful books can be." There are loads of people here making money with very different approaches; there is no one 'right' or 'wrong' way. There are, instead, many different factors that add up in order to give a writer either success or lack thereof.


My pet peeve is "No serious professional author would ever..."

The entire industry is made up of exceptions to the "rules".


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

I love telling stories. Why would I want to stop? When I first published a book I thought the world market for my kind of stories was about a hundred copies. Up until now I have done little to no promotion and what little I did was on the fly without a plan, let alone a strategy. I'm looking into this marketing thing now that my series has come to a pause. I'm not exactly a salesman by nature or calling, but I find that everything is interesting once you "get into" it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Hi!
Hugs and jelly beans to all here.  
Now my 2 cents on becoming an author.
First off, please write what you enjoy reading.    Yes it makes a difference both in the product and in your own mental health.  Not saying you can't write other things but remember there are money makers in all genres.  Not just short books.
Heck other than a couple of books I would say most on the best seller charts are full length books.  

Second: Writing should be the fun part.  But when you are through crafting your book, it is a business to sell it.

Third: if you are writing strictly for money, you may or may not find readers.

Lastly: there are no guarantees in this business.  You may hit big one day or you may bite the dust.    

Now: even if one decides to quit the business... Leave the books up for that little bit of income.

Good luck to all.
Oh and remember that just because one person took road 1 to get to the river, there are 100 other roads that lead to the same river.    
So on advice, take what is useful to you and leave the rest.

Except on hugssss.  Those are always good.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2015)

As primarily a reader these days, I hesitate to criticize writers who have struggled. I do read in the thriller genre some but wouldn't even do look-inside because of your covers. Since someone else mentioned this, I'll woman-up and say yeah, redo them. Covers dominated by text without a pleasing image say amateur to me.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

*********Kboards heresy trigger warning************​
I am not in this business to make money. If I do not make money I am not leaving this business that I have been working to enter since 1976. I am not going down the agented submission route as I missed the boat by 40 years (the boat into a private school where I could make the correct contacts and learn the correct accent).

I am a voracious reader - 74 books in 2014, aiming for 100 in 2015. I enjoy maybe one in ten of those books, most of which are good selling mainstream published books. I will continue writing to aim to be the one in ten that makes a reader want to continue reading and not hang up their reading boots due to the poor standard served up by all aspects of the industry.

P.S. if any of you have seen your book in my currently reading mini-bar, of course you were one of the one in ten


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Mercia McMahon said:


> I am not in this business to make money. If I do not make money I am not leaving this business that I have been working to enter since 1976.


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## VEwoodlake (Jul 11, 2014)

Best of luck. I guess I could say, "Never stop self-publishing," but that would be me speaking to me, not speaking to you. I think there probably does come a time where self-publishing yields increasingly marginal rewards to the point where time might be better spent on trying to go the traditional route. Looks like you've reached it. Good luck on your future endeavors.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

I saw this last October and printed it off to keep on the wall over my desk. I don't know if it will help the OP's situation but I thought it held a lot of truth. This is NOT MY OPINION but rather that of Mike Rowe. Anyway, here.

"Follow your Passion?"

Mike Rowe of “Dirty Jobs” has made a habit of going viral on the Internet by responding to fan questions, like the time a fan told him to prove he was the real-deal and wasn’t living a posh celebrity lifestyle and Rowe responded by giving a photo-tour of his apartment. 

On Tuesday it was Stephen Adams of Auburn, Alabama who wrote in questioning a now famous speech in which Rowe said “follow your passion” was the worst advice he’d ever received.

“Hi, Mike. Let me begin by saying that I love what you and your foundation are attempting to do,” Adams wrote. “However, I’m confused by your directive to NOT “follow your passion.” I think it can be safely argued that if no one followed their passion, companies like Apple, Microsoft, Dow, and many more wouldn’t exist. If no one follows their passion, who innovates? Who founds companies that provide jobs for the outstanding workers that your foundation aims to help?” 

Rowe’s complete response can be found below:

Hi Stephen

A few years ago, I did a special called “The Dirty Truth.” In it, I challenged the conventional wisdom of popular platitudes by offering “dirtier,” more individualistic alternatives. For my inspiration, I looked to those hackneyed bromides that hang on the walls of corporate America. The ones that extoll passersby to live up to their potential by “dreaming bigger,” “working smarter,” and being a better “team player.” In that context, I first saw “Follow Your Passion” displayed in the conference room of a telemarketing firm that employed me thirty years ago. The words appeared next to an image of a rainbow, arcing gently over a waterfall and disappearing into a field of butterflies. Thinking of it now still makes me throw up in my mouth.

Like all bad advice, “Follow Your Passion” is routinely dispensed as though it’s wisdom were both incontrovertible and equally applicable to all. It’s not. Just because you’re passionate about something doesn’t mean you won’t suck at it. And just because you’re determined to improve doesn’t mean that you will. Does that mean you shouldn’t pursue a thing you’re passionate about?” Of course not. The question is, for how long, and to what end? 

When it comes to earning a living and being a productive member of society – I don’t think people should limit their options to those vocations they feel passionate towards. I met a lot of people on Dirty Jobs who really loved their work. But very few of them dreamed of having the career they ultimately chose. I remember a very successful septic tank cleaner who told me his secret of success. “I looked around to see where everyone else was headed, and then I went the opposite way,” he said. “Then I got good at my work. Then I found a way to love it. Then I got rich.” 

Every time I watch The Oscars, I cringe when some famous movie star – trophy in hand – starts to deconstruct the secret to happiness. It’s always the same thing, and I can never hit “mute” fast enough to escape the inevitable cliches. “Don’t give up on your dreams kids, no matter what.” “Don’t let anyone tell you that you don’t have what it takes.” And of course, “Always follow your passion!” 

Today, we have millions looking for work, and millions of good jobs unfilled because people are simply not passionate about pursuing those particular opportunities. Do we really need Lady GaGa telling our kids that happiness and success can be theirs if only they follow their passion?

There are many examples – including those you mention – of passionate people with big dreams who stayed the course, worked hard, overcame adversity, and changed the world though sheer pluck and determination. We love stories that begin with a dream, and culminate when that dream comes true. And to your question, we would surely be worse off without the likes of Bill Gates and Thomas Edison and all the other innovators and Captains of Industry. But from my perspective, I don’t see a shortage of people who are willing to dream big. I see people struggling because their reach has exceeded their grasp. 

I’m fascinated by the beginning of American Idol. Every year, thousands of aspiring pop-stars show up with great expectations, only to learn that they don’t have anything close to the skills they thought they did. What’s amazing to me, isn’t their lack of talent – it’s their lack of awareness, and the resulting shock of being rejected. How is it that so many people are so blind to their own limitations? How did these peope get the impression they could sing in the first place? Then again, is their incredulity really so different than the surprise of a college graduate who learns on his first interview that his double major in Medieval Studies and French Literature doesn’t guarantee him the job he expected? In a world where everyone gets a trophy, encouragement trumps honesty, and realistic expectations go out the window. 

When I was 16, I wanted to follow in my grandfathers footsteps. I wanted to be a tradesman. I wanted to build things, and fix things, and make things with my own two hands. This was my passion, and I followed it for years. I took all the shop classes at school, and did all I could to absorb the knowledge and skill that came so easily to my granddad. Unfortunately, the handy gene skipped over me, and I became frustrated. But I remained determined to do whatever it took to become a tradesman.

One day, I brought home a sconce from woodshop that looked like a paramecium, and after a heavy sigh, my grandfather told me the truth. He explained that my life would be a lot more satisfying and productive if I got myself a different kind of toolbox. This was almost certainly the best advice I’ve ever received, but at the time, it was crushing. It felt contradictory to everything I knew about persistence, and the importance of “staying the course.” It felt like quitting. But here’s the “dirty truth,” Stephen. “Staying the course” only makes sense if you’re headed in a sensible direction. Because passion and persistence – while most often associated with success – are also essential ingredients of futility. 

That’s why I would never advise anyone to “follow their passion” until I understand who they are, what they want, and why they want it. Even then, I’d be cautious. Passion is too important to be without, but too fickle to be guided by. Which is why I’m more inclined to say, “Don’t Follow Your Passion, But Always Bring it With You.”

Carry On

Mike


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

In a sense, follow your passion, but don't be daft about it.

"Follow your passion" is the advice of the privileged. The privileged get to follow their passions. The rest of us have to pick something that works. Anyone can write books and earn money by writing books, but if you want to make your living by writing, then passion must give way to pragmatism. You take jobs that you don't prefer. You write books in the hot genres. You put dinner on the table.


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

Amanda Hough said:


> Declan,
> 
> Don't give up. I wish you luck and readership.
> 
> A


I agree. Hang in there. I think just about every author here knows how you are feeling, at one time or another. It's okay to feel discouraged for a bit. But, if this is something you love, please keep going.


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

I Know what you mean, Declan. I started around the same time as you and while we weren't at the vanguard, it was still all new and shiny, wasn't it? Now it all seems a bit ... jaded and tarnished? I was riding a wave last summer but then KU happened. New book out last month and I've barely covered its costs.

I think I'm just going to stop being so hard on myself. Take a step back and try to enjoy it all a bit more.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I don't think it is a bad thing to reevaluate what you want from time to time and look at how well your current strategies are getting you there.

It might be that self-publishing isn't the best route for your books. There's nothing wrong with that. It might also be that updating covers, perhaps writing a second book with the same characters as one of the stand alones you currently have, something like that might be the thing that makes the difference. It is easier to get traction with series characters, that's just kind of the reality of the biz right now. But perhaps rebranding your covers to make them all look more similar to each other and more in keeping with modern thriller covers (I like the Survival Instinct cover a lot).  Also, retooling some of your blurbs? I looked at Survival Instinct (liking the cover so much) and found the blurb kind of off-putting in how to tells me what kind of reading experience I'm going to have in a very preachy way instead of telling me the characters, setting, genre, and stakes etc. Just one opinion though.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Decon said:


> I guess I am a practical person, in that self-publishing (Not writing which I love) for me is fine,as long as I can see a return of investment...


I'm very much with you here. One of the reasons I gave up any idea of traditional publishing years ago was what I found out about advances for a first-time author in my genres. Creating stories is fun, but self-publishing is work, and without some financial return for that work, I wouldn't do it.

While I don't make a living from my books, I do make necessary supplemental retirement income, and FWIW my books are all standalones, although I plan to write more dog mysteries and have a series.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do from here.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I quit self-publishing for two years. I released a bunch of short stories in 2012, didn't see much traction, got frustrated with the lack of promotional opportunities, and gave up on them. Two years later, KU came along and I thought, "what the heck?" dragged out some other old short stories, polished them up, and published them. Went from earning coffee money every month to earning car payment money. Since then, I've published a novel and a novelette. Snagged a BookBub ad for my novel in December and am now looking at mortgage money this month.

My takeaway: publish more than one or two titles a year. Seek out reviews. Participate in blog tours and giveaways. Pay for advertising. Keep submitting to BookBub!!!!

My goal for 2015: publish a new title every 2-3 months. Promote the snot out of them. Keep building on that momentum! 

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Y'all who are criticizing what C. Gockel said ... yeah, sure, people who take different approaches have found success in self-publishing. But I think it's very likely the case that *most* successful self-publishers have followed exactly the recommendation she makes: write a series or serial. I bet that for every person who's found notable financial success through self-publishing stand-alone books, there are twenty who've done it with connected books. Or 50. Or maybe 100. When you're giving general advice, sure, nod to the outliers. They exist, and it's great that they do. But if you present them as the norm, you're being misleading.


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## bethrevis (Jul 30, 2014)

If there is one thing I've learned, it's that there's a difference between self publishing and traditional publishing. I'd been under the impression that the only different was who pushed the "publish" button, but that's not entirely true. You can be an expert in one form, and make a dozen mistakes in the other. There's a different style of writing (which tends towards serials/series), a different expectation from the reader (focused on quantity and the next novel), an entirely different method of marketing (very little crossover, in my so-far limited experience).

If you decide to go the traditional route--it's not giving up. It's not wrong. It may very well be more suited to your approach.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

bethrevis said:


> If there is one thing I've learned, it's that there's a difference between self publishing and traditional publishing. I'd been under the impression that the only different was who pushed the "publish" button, but that's not entirely true. You can be an expert in one form, and make a dozen mistakes in the other. There's a different style of writing (which tends towards serials/series), a different expectation from the reader (focused on quantity and the next novel), an entirely different method of marketing (very little crossover, in my so-far limited experience).
> 
> If you decide to go the traditional route--it's not giving up. It's not wrong. It may very well be more suited to your approach.


I couldn't agree more with every word of this.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Decon said:


> It's not a question of not liking or wanting to write. I am highly motivated in that regard.
> 
> I guess I am a practical person, in that self-publishing (Not writing which I love) for me is fine,as long as I can see a return of investment as unfortunately, I don't have deep pockets. I'd rather not put out a work without going through the steps I mentioned prior to publication for the sake of seeing it for sale with a nice thumbnail, or having the POD book on my bookshelf - warts and all.
> 
> ...


Way I see it is like this...

Most get into it, as they think they are going to make a killing. They have heard about the break out authors and they assume they can do the same.

Rarely is that the case. In many ways it's a bit like acting. Tons of people flock to Hollywood ( writers, actors, directors etc ) FEW make it within the first 5 years. Even FEWER get to do it full time.

So it all comes down to the following:

What does it mean to you?

Is it a business? ( then yes, if after 3 years of writing stories you aren't making the money you want. Maybe it's time to either change your writing strategy OR maybe your love for writing doesn't match your ability to write a good story and it's time to move into another area of business. This happens to actors all the time. They realize they don't have the magic but they are amazing script writers or amazing directors or simply amazing BURGER FLIPPERS lol ) Let's face it. Tons of people think they can sing, act etc. Few can. Tons assume they can write. It's not about if you can tap out words. Any idiot can tap out words. Few can write well, and I don't mean literary. I mean... tell a story that is killer. So you have all these folks tapping out words that are total dross. ( not saying yours is dross )

Just because the MEANS to publish is there, doesn't mean everyone should be doing it lol

Just as the means to sing through a mic is there, doesn't mean I want to hear someone croak out a tune.

You don't have to be a famous singer to do it full time. You just have to find your market of folks who love whatever you are tossing out.

Is it a hobby? ( if so, continue as it doesn't matter what you get paid. You do it for pure joy )


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## Sylvia R. Frost (Jan 8, 2014)

Heather Hamilton-Senter said:


> Hi there - so sorry that things have been difficult. Elizabeth is right though, higher price points lead you to a whole new audience. And all the audiences have changed since 2011.
> 
> I don't do covers in your genre so there is nothing self serving in this comment, but I think you need to re-evaluate your covers. What worked before is probably not working now as both readers and authors are much more savvy about cover design now. Beautiful covers aren't a magic bullet, but they can be the first step in completely re-evaluating your marketing.
> 
> ...


Heather and I might be the same person. Singing was/is also one of my first loves. (And what I went to school for.) I also do book-cover design, and I also write. Dopplegaannnnger.

Sorry to derail thread. Hi, Heather!


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

zoe tate said:


> I'm *so* glad nobody tried to tell me that before I started doing so!


Interesting reply to their comment. Do you write standalones? eroticas? Shorts?


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## MT Berlyn (Mar 27, 2012)

I wish you profoundly well on your path, Decon.  Maybe it is that on some level the intuitive soul takes precedence over what the mind originally intended.  Writing, like anything, takes its own path sometimes and success doesn't make one Tolstoy anymore than a failed effort makes one the literary equivalent of Howdy Doody.


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## Stewart Matthews (Nov 21, 2014)

Hey Decon - how often do you publish? Are the books in your sig your only pen name?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Here's my 2c worth.

You obviously enjoy writing. People who do not enjoy writing do not write several books and short story collections. Keep writing for that reason alone. This life is short enough not to do what you enjoy and what gives you pleasure and reward.

It sounds as if you are not satisfied with the creative aspect of writing alone. You want to find a readership for your work -- more so than you already have found. If that's the case, you have to see beyond writing as a creative pursuit intended to satisfy your need to create and tell stories. You have to see it in its context, which is as a business. Like any other business, the publishing business makes demands on its creators if they want to succeed. To succeed is also subjective. Some people feel that success is only achieved by making a living off the proceeds of the business pursuit. Or making a good chunk of a living, if the business pursuit is part time.

You have to decide what your definition of success is and then become strategic about achieving that success.

If you measure success as making a living as a self-published author, or making enough to pay some bills, or having 10,000+ books sold, you can no longer look at writing just as art. You have to see it as a business as well.

Book writing and publishing used to be done in two separate spheres: that of the writer on the artistic side, toiling away on the manuscript and then sending it off to agents / publishers, and that of the publisher on the business side, taking that manuscript and making it into a book for sale on the market. Now, self-publishers have to unite these two spheres into one, wearing both caps. You take off your business cap when you write, but you put it on preferably _before_ the writing starts so that you can get a sense of whether your story has an audience and whether your goals are achievable. If you have done your research and think your story has an audience and goals are achievable with the story ideas you have, then you take off your business cap and don the artist's cap and write. Once you have written that manuscript and had your creative moment, then you put your business cap back on and take care of business.

I think a lot of us start out with just the joy of writing a story that comes to us without looking first to see if anyone might even be interested in reading such a story. Then, we are dismayed that there really aren't very many people who are looking for that kind of book and our sales languish. Or we don't take the time to package the book properly with covers that compete with those books that are already selling well. Or blurbs that don't compete. To sell requires being able to stand out amongst the crowd and attract readers. A lot of us starting out do not think that far ahead. We write and publish for the sheer joy of it and forget the business side or don't take the time to learn the business side.

That can work for the lucky few who stumble onto a successful story and are able to package it properly and catch a wave or create one of their own, but that kind of success is very very rare. Even the trad publishers do not know with certainty which of their carefully curated and packaged books will break out and which will fall flat and they've been doing this for decades.

You have to be clear on your goals as a writer, your goals with publishing, and then do your best to ensure your product provides what your audience wants and do your best to get it in front of your potential readers.

My thought is that unless you have done all this, and done it consciously and deliberately, you can't really declare yourself a failure. To give up without have done all these things is to give up without really giving it the old college try.

YMMV!


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Randall Wood said:


> Which is why I'm more inclined to say, "Don't Follow Your Passion, But Always Bring it With You."


Your inclination is spot on; that's a wonderful saying.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Declan, I hope you do what you want to do and not what you feel like others are telling you you have to do.

I look forward to new authors coming in slowly (despite my current money-earner depending on them). I'll be glad to be done with the rush of people putting out as much as possible, whenever possible. And then I look forward to putting out more than 2 titles a year (our current average). 

We've also been doing this since 2011--and, dang, it's really changed, hasn't it? I've seen lots of authors I thought were doing amaze-balls fall off the radar. I watched them get better covers and still fall flat. I've seen others go with or back to trad publishing. 

We're too greedy for that. We want to make our own covers, write our own books without other's noses in it, expose people to the most vulnerable part of ourselves. We also don't need to make money, though we'd like to. Mostly we just want to write and explore different worlds with different characters. And look damn good doing it, I might ad. 

But that's us. You need to do what you need to do. If you're fine with submitting to agents and houses, then do it. There's a bunch more to publishing than just hitting a button, and I totally get why you're not up for it any more. 

Have fun, whatever you choose!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Declan, I just had a quick look at your books on Amazon, and what I see is a bunch of short stories and 3 novels that appear to be unconnected to each other. I don't know if the shorts are a positive, or just confusing for readers visiting your author profile.

If you can find a self-publishing author in your genre with only 3 novels, not in a series about the same main character, selling well, I'd be very surprised. Especially if they were selling well at $4.99, which is a tough price to command.

It's not you; it's just the product mix and the market's demands. 

As for what you have "in the works," if you do move ahead with those, see if you can put some books together into a cohesive series.

You get 5 books in a series, about the same main character, and it's like having a great poker hand. It doesn't guarantee you'll win, but it's a very good hand. What you have now is a lot of cards, but not a good hand.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

I also just went to look at your books, Declan and i agree with what Dayla said above.

I'd also say that your writing is GOOD and your stories look GOOD. It would be a shame to give it all up.

This is a way off left field suggestion, but maybe you could consider co-writing a thriller series with another thriller author (whose writing is as good as yours and who has some traction in the market) and get the series out quick, and recharge your writing career.

I'm sure you've heard it before that some new, strong branding of your covers would help (though covers are not a be-all and end-all - I've noticed strong, clear branding on the top sellers in thrillers and I hope it's not insulting to say that your covers don't grab me.)


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## Sara C (Apr 30, 2014)

I personally don't think you should give up, unless you're just plain unhappy self-publishing. I published my first book in 2009, and 2014 was the first year I actually started making enough money to live off of. Those first few years I made very little, but I enjoyed putting my books out there, being in control, etc., so I kept going. Eventually I managed to build up a fanbase, learned more about marketing, and now I'm doing better than I ever thought I would. Perhaps you could submit any new work to publishers while marketing what you have. Also, I hate to beat a dead horse with the YOU MUST WRITE A SERIES advice, but it really makes things much easier. I have a few books outside of my main series, but the series is the money maker.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

carinasanfey said:


> I wish people on kboards would stop saying "Write in this genre, it will definitely sell; don't write in this one, it definitely won't," or "Write books of this length, not this other length. This is the only length successful books can be." There are loads of people here making money with very different approaches; there is no one 'right' or 'wrong' way. There are, instead, many different factors that add up in order to give a writer either success or lack thereof.


I agree with that, but one does increase ones odds of becoming successful if they follow a certain approach. Somebody writing stand-alone literary novels has a chance to do well, but the odds are greater to do well if one writes in a popular genre, has a series or serial, and is strategic. That would include using loss leaders to introduce readers to the work. And you can't use loss leaders effectively unless you write in a series. When people give advice about being prolific, writing in a series, studying the market, writing in a popular genre and using loss leaders, they're simply reiterating things which have been tried and true to produce the best ODDS of success. There are other ways to succeed, of course, but the above strategy has been shown by many a writer to be the path to success. The standalone, write what you want, with no regard to the marketplace or hotter genres, CAN produce success, but it has a greater failure rate than the other formula. And, in this tough business, it's always better to increase your odds.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I've been self-publishing since 2011, too. I started with short stories, sold some, and then moved to writing longer work. Then life kicked me in the face. First my mother got sick, then the next year my father. My youngest son was going down a self-destructive path despite my best efforts.

Life in general sucked, we were barely getting by, our cars broke down. Last year, I was sick almost the whole time. Needless to say, my writing took a back burner and what I'd envisioned for my career blew away like a tornado had dropped in.

I considered letting my dream go. I'd stopped writing before over the years when life got too rough. After all, I wasn't really selling much, so it wasn't like I was going to miss the money. I spent a lot of time looking for free images for covers, trying to learn how to make them better, format better, write better. I was told to just spend $40 and buy premades, but if I'd had that kind of money it would have went to fix the many things that were always breaking.

I cried. I wondered why I was putting myself through all the trouble. I considered quitting, because every where I turned, I saw people making money, and I couldn't get enough to hit the minimum payment cutoff.

But, I looked around and thought, what else am I going to do? At my age, employers don't want me, and I can't physically do the kind of work I used to do, even if I could get an interview. And those jobs don't pay above minimum wage now.

So I reevaluated what I was writing, got some new pen names, and started over. I'm a lot happier, and optimistic. You're at the point where you are looking at your writing and wondering what to do. Personally, I think you haven't given it enough time for the novels to hit their readership. Write some more, do a series. Change the covers, redo the blurbs. Maybe write a different genre.

But most of all, do what makes you happy. Because life is too short to be miserable.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Sylvia R. Frost said:


> Heather and I might be the same person. Singing was/is also one of my first loves. (And what I went to school for.) I also do book-cover design, and I also write. Dopplegaannnnger.
> 
> Sorry to derail thread. Hi, Heather!


Whaaaat! Singing and acting is what I went to school for too! We ARE the same person!


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## ElleChambers (Nov 5, 2013)

Not me, OP, and I have no doubt sold way less than you. I keep going because I've been telling stories my entire life - I don't know how to do anything else. Sure, it's disappointing to put out a new release and have it be DOA, but I cling to the notion that I just haven't found my audience yet. 

Plus, I'm a masochist so that helps.

Seriously though, don't give up self-publishing if you love what you're doing. Maybe just change your approach. I realized that this year I have to make an effort to get some of my shorts published traditionally so I can build a fanbase/name recognition. Maybe doing something similar (and yes, writing a series) will help you.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2015)

The posts about giving up on indie publishing and trying to get a trad deal blow my mind. I thought we couldn't get a trad deal and that's why we became indies. If you can't make it as an indie, you won't make it as a trad writer. Try finding an agent or publisher after flopping as an indie! 

You know what they say about people who can't do, they teach. How about teaching some of the writers in Brazil all about indie publishing on Amazon? You'd still be involved in art and making some money.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

drno said:


> The posts about giving up on indie publishing and trying to get a trad deal blow my mind. I thought we couldn't get a trad deal and that's why we became indies. If you can't make it as an indie, you won't make it as a trad writer. Try finding an agent or publisher after flopping as an indie!


Sorry, but no. Some people decided that trad pub wasn't right for them. And I don't mean in the 'I'm defeated so it must not be for me' way. I mean in the 'f*** no you're not touching my book without my permission!!' way, or the 'I'm a total DIY bad*** way.'

As for flopping as an indie, what's the big deal? Make an alternative author name and submit. Nothing lost.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I imagine we'll either be seeing a lot of posts like this in the coming months or just seeing names slowly fading from the radar.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we've tapped out the "boom" of this new industry. It's a rapidly maturing and saturating marketing. I don't think we're going to have a "bust" like other industries, which ended up bringing doom and gloom to the economy, but the bust here will be lots of people hanging up their hats.
> 
> My hope is that those who do decide to move on, do so with pride, having given this industry a go and put their all into it. There's no shame to be had in that. My hat is off to anyone who put effort into following a dream.


Hi Decon
I'm going to buck the trend and say that it sounds to me as though you need some time out of this.
Clearly you love writing and don't enjoy publishing. That's okay.

I've included Rick's post because I think there is something very important in it. Not necessarily about you, but about this industry in general right now. It has reached a tipping point of sorts. It has become more accessible than ever before, but the knock on is that it is harder to be seen.

It can sometimes feel like throwing ice cubes in the ocean and then checking the water to see if there is a change in temperature. Most of the time there isn't. An iceberg has to melt before people sit up and take notice.

So, yes, as Rick says, a lot of people will come at this time, and a lot of people will go. It will probably be that way for quite a while before it shakes back down to being the people that simply can not do anything else because their hearts won't let them.

And for a lot of those people, it won't be about money in the end, but love of the written word, and you may well be one of them... or not. I have no idea. It clearly brings you some satisfaction...

Okay I'm losing my thread now. What I'm basically saying is that self publishing is not an easy gig, especially at this time (even though a ton of people seem convinced that it is!) and you sound like you need a break from the pressure it inflicts.

HUGS


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Gene Bathurst said:


> I just got my self-publishing boots. Haven't even broken them in yet, really, but in the last month I've learned a lot on kboards. If I were approaching all this from a business perspective, I'd have researched the market first. Instead I did it backwards. And rather than doing a series of shorter books, as seems to be the fashion today, I put out a big honker.
> 
> Sales have been non-existent. I'm not surprised, and I imagine my promotional efforts will take some time to have any effect, if ever.
> 
> ...


No - they are not right. You are watching lemmings heading for the cliff - word count is far more important than speed.

By the end of this year you'll start to see threads where people have hammered out thirty/forty titles and earned nothing. That's because it's easy to hammer our thirty/forty shorts/shortish - and the market won't be saturated, it will be under five miles of ocean.

I advise any new writer to use twenty-thousand words as the minimum starting point, although I'd prefer thirty-thousand. In my case, my fictional titles this year will be between seventy-one-hundred thousand words.

Write longer, and rise above the tsunami. And you don't have to write at pulp speeds to pub six one-hundred thousand word novels in a year - it's less than two-thousand words a day.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2015)

4DCharacters said:


> Sorry, but no. Some people decided that trad pub wasn't right for them.


That's not even 1 percent of indie writers. Self publishing was the last resort for 99 percent. Why advise flopped indie writers to keep the dream alive by sending out query letters? We did that for decades and it didn't work.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

EC said:


> No - they are not right. You are watching lemmings heading for the cliff - word count is far more important than speed.
> 
> By the end of this year you'll start to see threads where people have hammered out thirty/forty titles and earned nothing. That's because it's easy to hammer our thirty/forty shorts/shortish - and the market won't be saturated, it will be under five miles of ocean.
> 
> ...


Hmm, but again this comes down to not saying only one size fits all! Some genres don't require a large word count, and most definitely flourish from more regular releases


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

drno said:


> That's not even 1 percent of indie writers. Self publishing was the last resort for 99 percent.


I eagerly await the data you have to back up this claim.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

drno said:


> That's not even 1 percent of indie writers. *Self publishing was the last resort for 99 percent*. Why advise flopped indie writers to keep the dream alive by sending out query letters? We did that for decades and it didn't work.


Where did you get that statistic? Unsupported Facts Monthly?

Traditional publishing needs volume because of the large overhead. E-publishing made it possible for niche writers, and sub-niche writers, to reach their readers and make a dollar or two while doing it. Traditional publishing is too incompetent to bring these stories to a limited readership.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

kalel said:


> Interesting reply to their comment. Do you write standalones? eroticas? Shorts?


Full-length standalone fiction only (so far).


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

drno said:


> That's not even 1 percent of indie writers. Self publishing was the last resort for 99 percent. Why advise flopped indie writers to keep the dream alive by sending out query letters? We did that for decades and it didn't work.


Whuh? 

DRNO, you've just ignited the popcorn tins, and there's about to be some flames!


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

drno said:


> If you can't make it as an indie, you won't make it as a trad writer. Try finding an agent or publisher after flopping as an indie!


Strictly speaking, this doesn't necessarily quite follow, because you can approach agents keeping quiet about having flopped as a self-publisher. (Granted, having flopped as a self-publisher is highly likely to put trad*e* publishers off you.) I agree with the underlying sentiments and realities behind the rest of your comments, drno, and am only sorry (though entirely unsurprised) to see them falling on stony ground, here.

(For the record, and I mention this as a "hybrid" author, self-publishing _is_ "traditional". Trad*e* publishing is a far more recent industry.)


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2015)

Evenstar said:


> Hmm, but again this comes down to not saying only one size fits all! Some genres don't require a large word count, and most definitely flourish from more regular releases


I agree and so does Hugh Howey

http://www.hughhowey.com/the-glut-is-good/


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

drno said:


> That's not even 1 percent of indie writers. Self publishing was the last resort for 99 percent.


What's your source for this information?


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

M Stephen Stewart said:


> Hey Decon - how often do you publish? Are the books in your sig your only pen name?


All the same name. I published 3 full length, 1 Compilation, all as eBooks and POD. Then the compilation as 12 singles. A 12,000 word novella as an eBook and POD. 2 German translations of two of the shorts I like the best. 3 Portuguese short story translations published recently as eBooks and POD to include the English version. (Only to find CS don't distribute POD to Amazon Brazil) Still sold a few though.

I have 4 full length WIP not three as I originally said. One will be 1st draft complete this week and is the 1st of a trilogy. It's a crime thriller with a paranormal edge the same as Missing: The Body of Evidence, which was well received and earned out quickly. The trilogy introduces a new type of creature for those tired of the same old werewolves and vampires, but still interested in paranormal. I then have 3 stand alone stories which are at different stages up to 25,000 each approx. All my work is now targeted at around 100,000 words. I have given up on short stories.

So I am guessing here that I could put 4 full length works out this year if I wanted.

As for those who mentioned my covers. The bestseller of all (The compilation) was cobbled together by me and didn't stop it making a bucket load of money, selling by the cartload for the first year it was published. My other full length books are all done by professionals and I'm happy with them. They look good on the bookshelf at home. Deadly Journey which I had on NetGally for reviews had plenty of thumbs up for the cover. Also a trad publisher boss I had a discussion with on a writers site said that of them all, Deadly Journey was up to scratch. That was after I called him out for his choice of covers on his recent imprint stuff.

As for the shorts, I'll agree, they could do with covers, but it won't happen, not at $45 for a premade even If I could find one to match the story, which I can't, or $75 for a custom. Even $20 would be too much to expect a return for a few years.

Anyway, to fund editing and covers for 4 books this year isn't going to happen unless I earn it first from what I have out. I doubt that will happen, hence my decision to go back to submitting. That's not saying I couldn't change my mind. Nothing is cast in stone, except I will continue to write until my last breath. My basic goal has always been to cover the costs of self-publishing more books, nothing more.

Rather that rise to the bait of the "if you can't make it as an indie" post. All I would say is I am not stupid. I would submit in my real name.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I just want to wish you luck on all fronts.


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## bethrevis (Jul 30, 2014)

drno said:


> The posts about giving up on indie publishing and trying to get a trad deal blow my mind. I thought we couldn't get a trad deal and that's why we became indies.


I'm extraordinarily happily traditionally published, and have a contract for two more trad pubbed novels with Penguin, and have every plan to do everything possible to continue my trad pub career. I'm self publishing a novel and short stories in my spare time, with works that don't fit my publisher's category. The idea that self publishing is only for "failures" is definitely not something I think is true anymore--if ever. Further, just because one book didn't get an agent and was self published doesn't mean the next book isn't perfect for the market. It's not all or nothing.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> I just want to wish you luck on all fronts.


Appreciated. I'd also like to thank everyone for their good wishes and for the advice. I am reading all the posts for inspiration and some of them have some good advice.

Hopefully some of their advice will also help others in re-assessing their brand and future progress in the business.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Covers that worked two or three years ago aren't necessarily good enough or the right "look" these days. That stuff changes. It was easier, in my experience, a couple years ago to put up a decent book with a mediocre cover and sell well. Not so much these days, in most cases.

Why not write four books this year in that series you have the first book done in? And revisit your covers and blurbs with an eye on the 2015 market? Would take less time to do some of that than it will to query and sell a book trad. Maybe then write one or two of the stand alones and query those while you are working on the new series and updating your older works?


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2015)

I think you have to consider what your own personal appetite for fighting through the tough times is.

There's a saying - The toughest moments are usually right before the biggest wins.

I've found that to be very true.

Often we reach a point where we feel frustrated and that triggers us to make a breakthrough and/or find a line better suited to our gifts and passions.

If WRITING is your natural aptitude fit and your passion, then you shouldn't quit. Then the problem lies elsewhere.

********

Do you have the product that readers are asking for? Which readers?

is your product high quality?

Are you being able to reach readers?

Consider those 3 main areas

i.e.

Product Market Fit
Best Product
Best Marketing

Which have your mastered?
Which is missing?

And try to approach it COMPLETELY from the perspective of what readers want.

You will get everything you desire as an author if you provide enough readers with what they desire.

However, if you stay focused on what YOU want and never think of what readers want, you'll be stuck forever. No one cares what you desire, but they'll give you everything you could dream of, if you can provide them what they desire.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2015)

Decon said:


> All I would say is I am not stupid. I would submit in my real name.


No gatekeeper is stopping readers from reading anybody's stories and if they are not liked by readers, how exactly is an agent or trad*é* publisher gonna change that? Is their marketing budget gonna force feed the readers? Why go back to querying, when that does not work? Is it to keep the dream alive?


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## cwashburn (May 20, 2013)

This is an interesting topic.  I've seen sales (which were never excessive) go down also in the last few months.  But I don't need the money from my books and as long as I'm enjoying writing and being part of the writing community it is worthwhile to me.  I'd value more knowing that one of my books made someone happy or sad or mad or made them think or laugh out loud.  That would be the true reward.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2015)

You already have 6 titles out.
Don't throw in the towel after only 3 years.
It took best seller Dean Koontz 5 years before he started hitting the good money and a growing audience.
Erle Stanley Gardner (Perry Mason) took about 7 years to learn the craft and started making enough money to equal his law practice income.
What I'm saying is don't give up now that you've got your feet wet.
My dad came of age during the Depression. When he was in his 60s, he started college classes so he could earn a degree.
At the beginning of one semester, he went to a new class and realized he had signed up for the wrong course. He stayed with it. "I never quit anything once I start it," he told me.
Consider Winston Churchill. He was a middle aged loser, having failed in politics. But then he was recalled to lead Britain when World War II broke out. "Never give up," he said. The world was glad he didn't.
Harry S Truman failed in business, then became President on the death of FDR. It took him several years, but he paid off all his old business debts.
Mark Twain was broke and heavily in debt, despite having written the best selling Tom Sawyer, and Huckleberry Finn.
He pulled up his socks and wrote the biography of ex-president Grant, who was also broke and in debt at that time.
Twain's effort pulled himself and Grant out of debt.
Now consider yourself.
You are a writer. I have sampled your books. You can write.
The market, especially Amazon, is a little screwed up now. But you can make it. Hang on!
I can not wish you well if you decide to drop out. You are a young man. Don't do something that you might regret later in life.
You are a writer.


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

Okey Dokey said:


> You already have 6 titles out.
> Don't throw in the towel after only 3 years.
> It took best seller Dean Koontz 5 years before he started hitting the good money and a growing audience.
> Erle Stanley Gardner (Perry Mason) took about 7 years to learn the craft and started making enough money to equal his law practice income.
> ...


Great post! It encouraged me even lol.


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## Kathryn Meyer Griffith (May 6, 2013)

All I can tell you is: This is the writing (or an artist's or a singer's) life...one year you're up, the next you're down...one book sells, the next doesn't...it's a hard scramble life. Being an artist of any kind. Only the rare few make a good living from it. I know. I've been writing for over 44 years and I've been up and down like a roller coaster. But things change as you get older and you realize what's important...living. Just living. Being happy. For it all goes way too quickly. Write if you love to write and stop if you don't. Find something you love to do; something that makes you happy.
I've been distressed over KU and the way self-publishing has changed so much since I first started in 2012...but compared to the awful treatment I had at the hands of so many editors and publishers in the past and the 4% royalties I used to get 30 years ago even my diminished income lately doesn't bother me. I'd love to make $1000-$5000 a month but am tickled pink with a few hundred.  But I'm different as I've seen the worse, seen the bottom of the barrel and am happy with anything I get. I wish you luck but would suggest you sleep on your decision or stop for awhile and if you're a true writer you'll eventually come back to writing in one form or another. I know I did over and over and over (you get the picture) for 44 years and I'm still here. Take a rest. See how you feel next month. We all go through this disenchantment at times.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I think most writers have to go through some form of this every 5 years or so.

You set out on a course, and then ... things change.  The industry changes, the popularity of a genre changes. YOU change.

So you rise up and take a sighting, and figure out which way is your true north and what path is going to be the best for you for the next 5-7 years.

And everybody's got to look into the abyss once in a while and whisper "What if I never sell anything again?"  (And that goes even more so for traditional publishing than self publishing, unfortunately.)  It's okay to quit -- whether it's just self-publishing or to quit writing altogether.  If you get enough out of it, you'll come back, and if you don't, you know, you may find something way more rewarding.

So I just say, good luck.  I hope your choice is right for you (although there is no wrong choice, especially if it's not made in haste or desperation).  Please stick around, though, and let us know your progress.  Traditional writers write for Kindle readers too.

Camille


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

Following what Okey Dokey said; Nora Roberts wrote ten books before having a bestseller. That's 10 full length novels pushed, pulled and dragged through the legacy system. I don't know her bibliography like I'm sure some fans here do but that has to be at least ten years of "mid-list" sales and advances, all of which I doubt was a living wage. Howey wrote the entire Molly Fyde series before the first Wool short, plus whatever's on his computer that will never see the light of day. That's an awful lot of writing. We can throw examples like this around all day. It might take you longer to find the story, series or genre niche that works for you. What you've done hasn't worked so do something different.



> Covers that worked two or three years ago aren't necessarily good enough or the right "look" these days


This too. The 3 thriller covers in your sig look good but the rest could definitely be updated.

Alles gute.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

This thread makes me so mad I just want to swear. oops there goes another angel lol 

Nah on a serious note. I think at the end of the day. The cream will rise to the top.

Self-publishing is beautiful and it's here to stay. The good and the bad comes with that.

The good writers will rise from it, get noticed, gain a following and get deals. Mediocre ones will hobble along.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

There is an old saying in the acting biz that, "If you can do something, ANYTHING, else and be happy... do it."

I used to take that as a call to arms, a challenge to fight the fight.  But as the years passed, I realized that it was actually a bit of very loving, gentle advice.  I wasted twelve years of my life in Hollywood trying to prove that I was going to be a success in the movie industry, and then one day I woke up and acknowledged the truth... I hated it.  I didn't hate acting, I hated acting on film, kind of like you don't hate writing, you just aren't enjoying this indie publishing thing.  That is huge and wonderful!  And you know what?  It was from that moment of clarity and truth in my life that things really took off.  I stopped trying to force myself to do stuff I didn't enjoy.  And suddenly, I had the time and energy to do the stuff I really love.  I'm suddenly in London learning Shakespeare and writing plays that are getting NYC and U.K. readings and having the time of my life.  It's like staying in a bad relationship.  You'll miss out on the person of your dreams who is out there wondering where the heck you are.

So, I just wanted to say CONGRATULATIONS on figuring it out!  The whole wide world now stands before you asking what is it that really tickles you, because you get to do that now.  And that is awesome.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

EC said:


> And you don't have to write at pulp speeds to pub six one-hundred thousand word novels in a year - it's less than two-thousand words a day.


While I agree about putting out lengthy works (20k+) I disagree quite a lot with the idea that 2,000 words a day isn't 'pulp speed'.

Anyone here do revisions?  Though everyone's revision process is different (some not revising at all and their plots still make sense, lucky buggers) my books take 3 - 4 rounds of revisions (including post-line edits/beta read revisions) in order for me to consider them polished.

And to anyone who doesn't put out 600,000 words a year, or even a million, don't let anyone make you feel inferior about it.

I am by no means suggesting the poster who I've quoted here did that. I'm simply replying to the implication that 2,000 words a day is an easy to achieve pace. Without editing, I could write 10,000 words a day, most of which I'd spend way too much time revising because writing is part exploration for me.

I publish about 400,000 words a year, though that's my speed, and I do okay for myself 

**Note, I write/edit 8 hours a day on average.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

drno said:


> That's not even 1 percent of indie writers. Self publishing was the last resort for 99 percent. Why advise flopped indie writers to keep the dream alive by sending out query letters? We did that for decades and it didn't work.


Declan isn't a "flopped" indie writer. How rude of you to come in and crap on his thread. He's not happy with the progress of his career at this point, and is looking for a different path. That's sensible.

Maybe _you_ queried unsuccessfully for decades, but many of us bypassed the traditional route in favor of being in control of our writing, not to mention make more money. And let's not forget the many traditionally published writers who did rather well, but still decided to self-publish, for the same reasons I and others like me did.



Perry Constantine said:


> I eagerly await the data you have to back up this claim.


Seriously. Show us the statistics!


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

Decon said:


> This has nothing to do with giving up writing, but it is a gloomy post.
> 
> I've been self-publishing since 2011, with one more book almost complete and two more in the pipeline, both 25,000 words in with 75,000 to go on each.
> 
> ...


You probably won't listen to this, most people won't, most people will delude themselves. But maybe you're not most people.

Fix your covers. Fix your blurbs. Write in a series. What what people actually want to read (if you're not already). Look at popular thrillers, copy them. If someone expects a pepperoni pizza don't give them bread with goat cheese and sun dried tomatoes if you want to get paid: they may like it, but most people won't.

Giving up before trying those things is like jogging around a track once and then collapsing, saying you'll never run a marathon and now you're going to go have some ice cream.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I imagine we'll either be seeing a lot of posts like this in the coming months or just seeing names slowly fading from the radar.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we've tapped out the "boom" of this new industry. It's a rapidly maturing and saturating marketing. I don't think we're going to have a "bust" like other industries, which ended up bringing doom and gloom to the economy, but the bust here will be lots of people hanging up their hats.
> 
> My hope is that those who do decide to move on, do so with pride, having given this industry a go and put their all into it. There's no shame to be had in that. My hat is off to anyone who put effort into following a dream.


^This.

I'm not sure whether it makes it better or worse that my income last year was no lower than the year before (but didn't go up any), so not everyone is hurting that much. But things have changed... again. Again, I am changing my strategy, a decision I made several months ago but have taken some time to implement.

For anyone who decides it's time to go back to trying trad or not publishing at all, I absolutely understand. Writing and publishing has always been a tough business. That hasn't changed, just some of the ways in which it is tough. So the best to everyone, those staying and those at least considering going.


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## martyns (May 8, 2014)

I was thinking about this and I came to the conclusion; with writing, you haven't failed until you've either died or given up. I refuse to fail, so even if my sales fall off the rock - I'll still keep at it. I'll stop writing when I'm dead! You can give up and accept failure if you like - or start another project! Try a different genre. Write for the love of writing - not for money.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> Hmm, but again this comes down to not saying only one size fits all! Some genres don't require a large word count, and most definitely flourish from more regular releases


I know I may be contradicting myself by saying that I agree with you - erotic shorts being an example. The problem is a lot of people are being persuaded, "militant," was the word used, that pulping out was the only answer. It's not - far from it.

As for the OP - I think all he needs to do is to change his expectation - write what he wants, throw it up on Zon, and regard anything as a bonus. It's the expectation of success or financial independence not achieved that wears people down.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I thought of quitting once or twice. To get over it I vowed to switch genres and write 500 erotica shorts and if I still wasn't where I wanted to be I'd consider it. I'll be well off or dead before I get there.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2015)

she-la-ti-da said:


> He's not happy with the progress of his career at this point, and is looking for a different path. That's sensible.


There is a difference in being 30 or 60. Someone 30 wants to give it all for 3 years and then see results. If the results are not there, then you may have to make a life changing decision.


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> I don't think you can make it in this business if you don't write serials or series ... if you're not going to do that, I would search high and low for a traditional publisher who can get you into bookstores, Target, Walmart, etc.


Err yeah, what you said. Traditionally published authors come and go unless they have that one amazing and popular book they're known for. The rest "die off" into memory. The ones spoken about constantly often write serials or series of books.


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## HAGrant (Jul 17, 2011)

EC said:


> As for the OP - I think all he needs to do is to change his expectation - write what he wants, throw it up on Zon, and regard anything as a bonus. It's the expectation of success or financial independence not achieved that wears people down.


*Look, folks, let's be fair to Declan. He never said he expected his writing to give him financial independence. He also never said he was going to quit writing. Let's not misquote him. 
*
Declan, I've enjoyed reading some of your stories over the years. I understand about not wanting to continue a particular path if it doesn't pay or readers are slowing down. If I were you, I would change my covers and blurbs and see if that gives the books a new life. Go hybrid and see how you do. Best wishes to you.


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## m.a. petterson (Sep 11, 2013)

KateDanley said:


> There is an old saying in the acting biz that, "If you can do something, ANYTHING, else and be happy... do it."
> 
> I used to take that as a call to arms, a challenge to fight the fight. But as the years passed, I realized that it was actually a bit of very loving, gentle advice. I wasted twelve years of my life in Hollywood trying to prove that I was going to be a success in the movie industry, and then one day I woke up and acknowledged the truth... I hated it. I didn't hate acting, I hated acting on film, kind of like you don't hate writing, you just aren't enjoying this indie publishing thing. That is huge and wonderful! And you know what? It was from that moment of clarity and truth in my life that things really took off. I stopped trying to force myself to do stuff I didn't enjoy. And suddenly, I had the time and energy to do the stuff I really love. I'm suddenly in London learning Shakespeare and writing plays that are getting NYC and U.K. readings and having the time of my life. It's like staying in a bad relationship. You'll miss out on the person of your dreams who is out there wondering where the heck you are.
> 
> So, I just wanted to say CONGRATULATIONS on figuring it out! The whole wide world now stands before you asking what is it that really tickles you, because you get to do that now. And that is awesome.


^^^^^ Much wisdom here.

I think I'll go fire my therapist.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> Y'all who are criticizing what C. Gockel said ... yeah, sure, people who take different approaches have found success in self-publishing. But I think it's very likely the case that *most* successful self-publishers have followed exactly the recommendation she makes: write a series or serial. I bet that for every person who's found notable financial success through self-publishing stand-alone books, there are twenty who've done it with connected books. Or 50. Or maybe 100. When you're giving general advice, sure, nod to the outliers. They exist, and it's great that they do. But if you present them as the norm, you're being misleading.


I second this. I am moderately successful in that I went from working my day job full-time to part-time. Some months are better than others, for sure but I have a series with five books, and they are my bread and butter. I have a stand alone novel that is romantic suspense. After doing pretty well initially and getting good reviews, it has faded to about one sale or borrow per day. Some days, it has neither. I've found that it is a lot harder to market. I can do a free day, but then what? A bunch of people get the free book and then that's the last I see of them. I put a sample of book one from my series in the back of the romantic suspense and maybe that has garnered a few looks, but I don't know for sure. I do know that if I had seven stand alone novels, I...well, I probably wouldn't have seven stand alone novels because I would have quit before writing that many. 

What I hear over and over in reviews of my series is that the readers love the characters and while the plot is a big deal too, I feel that they are just wanting to spend more time with the characters and that's why they keep reading. When they tire of the characters, they stop buying.

The thing is, you don't have to have started out writing a series. I know lots of authors plan out series books, but I'm not one of them. I wrote the first book, then tried the agent route (back in 2009-2010). I was just hoping to get that one published. Another writer told me that while I was waiting to hear from agents, I should write another book. Honestly, I was kind of at a loss. I knew I shouldn't write a sequel at that point because if the first wasn't sold to a publisher, what was I going to do with that second book? So I began writing a romantic suspense. Before I finished that, I self-published the first book. Readers started asking if there would be more, so I dusted off an old story I had that would work with my first one--sort of. It would be easy to work the characters in to the premise, but the theme was different. I set aside working on the romantic suspense and wrote the second book in the series from that old story. It worked.  Then I had some success with both, and that was it. I put that romantic suspense into a file and did nothing but Mark Taylor novels for three years. I FINALLY finished the romantic suspense last spring. It only took four years. lol

Now, I'm back to series, only I'm doing a spinoff of the Mark Taylor Series. I have no idea how it will be received, but I'm hoping readers will want to stick with the characters even if the main one has taken a backseat (although he's still present).


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## RockyGrede (Apr 19, 2013)

Not everyone will be successful at publishing. Just like not everyone can be a doctor.

There are ups and there are downs.

Success may find you somewhere else.


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

Hey Declan,

Personally, I wish that EVERYBODY would give up. Except me. I mean, just think about it. There's Jeff Bezos, with his Amazon empire, teetering solely upon the three dozen or so e-books I have got there. That's regular David and Goliath material. Imagine the advertisements - COME TO AMAZON COUNTRY AND READ STEVE VERNON! Think of all the reviews I would get from those thousands of suddenly-bookless reviewers.



But seriously...

Ask yourself what you WOULD do with all the time that was suddenly yours - if you did, indeed, leave the indie publishing behind. 

Ask yourself what you want to do with your time.

If you can HONESTLY think of something else more productive and more enjoyably and more rewarding than self-publishing - then go ahead and do it. You have my blessings.

I give you permission to attempt a successful divorce.

A year from now if you find yourself gazing longingly at your keyboard and sitting up at night with stories kicking around in your skull trying to escape from all of that ooey gray matter - well then I guess you weren't supposed to quit after all. So you can go back to it and you will find that nothing really has changed. You might have to brush up your formatting skills and research a few new markets but odds are the indie publishing will NOT have changed all that significantly.

So allow me to suggest a trial separation - if you REALLY believe that getting away from the indie writing will make you feel more satisfied with your life.

This isn't critical.

It isn't like you are going to get yourself a lobotomy to totally kill off your creative cells. You are just taking a break. If a year rolls by and you DON'T feel the urge to get back to your writing - well then you did the right thing. If a year rolls by and you DO feel the urge - well then you did the right thing anyway - because you would come back to your writing with a fever and a passion that would be cosmically epic.

So that would be my suggestion to you.

Go forth and fart around.


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## daffodils321 (Oct 31, 2014)

KJC said:


> While I agree about putting out lengthy works (20k+) I disagree quite a lot with the idea that 2,000 words a day isn't 'pulp speed'.
> 
> Anyone here do revisions?  Though everyone's revision process is different (some not revising at all and their plots still make sense, lucky buggers) my books take 3 - 4 rounds of revisions (including post-line edits/beta read revisions) in order for me to consider them polished.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this! I put in similar hours. I could probably sit down and pound out 2000 words a day in an hour--I've done it before--but it would never be publishable in that form. With edits, polish, and research I can only get 300-500 words/ hr.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic to the OP.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I have deleted this post as I do not consent to the new Terms of Service that Vertical Scope are attempting to retrospectively apply to our content.  I am forced to manually replace my content as, at time of editing, their representative has instructed moderators not to delete posts or accounts when users request it, and Vertical Scope have implied that they will deal with account deletion requests by anonymising accounts, which would leave personally identifying information in my posts.

I joined under the previous ownership and have posted over the years under different Terms of Service.  I do not consent to my name, content, or intellectual properties being used by Vertical Scope or any other entity that they sell or licence my data to.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

EC said:


> It's the expectation of success or financial independence not achieved that wears people down.


That is it exactly, the belief, the desire, the pain of not being able to do it for a living. But I don't imagine that gets any better once you are able. Now you face the fear or worry of losing it all.


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## stevenremington (Jun 17, 2014)

I simply love to write and make things come to life. I feel it is an escape -- or maybe a release -- for me. Although I don't make a ton of sales, each time I do, with every single new sale, I get excited. It simply means I have potentially touched one more person's life. To me, I don't tend to look at that lightly.

I feel I have already succeeded in what I aim to do, and therefore will continue to write until the day I die even if nobody really reads them. Since self-publishing right now is free, I plan to offer my writing on Amazon via kindle and paperback. When I die, I'll give the rights over to my children if they feel they want to sell my books. Other than that, I spent my time on this precious earth doing what I loved to do.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I suspect it's less the existence of KU and more what Amazon is doing with the visibility algorhythms that is crushing everyone.


We have the same suspicions, except I think they're both elements of the same new Amazon strategy. If this is true, chances are the results won't be pretty by the end of the year.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

What I see from you is a lack of a strategy. You've been publishing since 2011, and you have only three full length books out there. None of your books seem to be related to any of your other books, at least from looking at the covers. Now, there are the posts that talk about one size not fitting all, but I stand my ground - the best way to succeed in this world, in this indie world, is by doing all of the following - 1) write prolifically - at least four books per year; 2) write in a series or a serial; 3) write in a popular genre; 4) have a loss leader (or several) and 5) study the top sellers of your chosen genre.

And I know, I know - there's going to be all of these "but, but, but, but, such and such is making bank on selling standalone novels in [insert obscure genre here], and she only publishes one book a year." Look at it this way - let's say that you're playing the stock market. Who is going to succeed - the person who makes a dart board that has the names of companies on the board, and then throws the darts and invests in the ones where the darts land, or the person who really studies the marketplace? The dude throwing the darts might make a killing IF HE IS REALLY LUCKY. I don't know about you, but I would not really want to rely on getting lucky. I would go with tried and true methods of investing. That would give me better odds of succeeding.

At any rate, you need A strategy. It doesn't mean that it's my strategy, but it has to be something. What doesn't work, almost 100% of the time, is writing books without a strategy. That generally means that if you're writing whatever your heart wants and just putting the books up there, with no clear eye towards market or reader expectations, promoting, or any of that, you're writing your own failure story.

So, adopt a strategy. As I said, it doesn't have to be my strategy, but it has to be something. Otherwise, you're picking stocks by throwing darts.

(ducks the inevitable flames)


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## stuff1 (Jan 1, 2015)

I hear this a lot...but personally KU has tripled my revenue...

Why not try and write 100 targeted  books, if you can sell 1 per day that is $200 per day at $2.99, when you have the income you can write what you really want to, but until then, do genre and keyword research, publish as a business and not as a personal hobby. It doesn't take long to write 100, 5-6k word books. I have 73 published right now and it only took me about 6 months to do.

Where the money is really at, IMO, is series with a permafree as #1, this gets people in. One of my pen names has a 55k word "novella" which gets around 3 sales per month at $0.99, and then a series which make around $40 per day (3 at $2.99 each). If that pen name really takes off, I bet I will get lots of people buying the novella. 

What did I learn? The time it took for my business partner to write the novella could have been spent creating a whole series... $0.90 in revenue per month vs $40+ per day...


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

When I retired from my 3rd career, real estate, I anticipated time for all the interests I'd postponed for years. Guess what...there wasn't time for everything. I still haven't restarted piano lessons or taking many academic classes or a whole lot of other things. I landed on writing and publishing fictional novels. This process gives me satisfaction and stimulation. It's not a major source of income for me, but who knows, maybe it will be someday.

I mentioned to my husband he needed to learn how to access the publishing channels and keep a list of my various passwords if something were to happen to me prematurely. He chuckled and said, "Oh yes, all that income is so important." I just told him the day may come when it is. Or not. Either way, it's part of who I am. Don't misunderstand this paragraph. He is very supportive of my writing. He simply doesn't consider it likely as a source of significant income.

I suspect too many people start self-publishing to make a lot of money. They read of authors who have quit their jobs and write full time, supporting themselves enough to survive or making the big bucks. As in any creative enterprise, that's not the norm. That's a simple fact. However, it doesn't mean one shouldn't pursue their creative enterprise *IF it gives you satisfaction and stimulation.*

It's wonderful we can come here for encouragement and understanding and advice and renewed hopes and problem solving. Yet, in the end, each individual must decide what is best for himself/herself. So, I would suggest you do what is best for yourself and your own happiness, without burning bridges behind you. No decision regarding work or hobby or avocation should be permanent.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

No.

I remember my frustration with agents, the "boy, this is well written but nobody reads these any more" rejections, and the feeling that I would grow old and die with a dozen decent books on my hard drive, that my relatives would come along and throw out everything I owned including those, and that those stories that I liked so much would never see the light of day. I was downright depressed about that, and the thought haunted me for years.

I'm not a selfpub star, but strangers around the world are reading those formerly buried stories. (that I can pay for groceries and utilities with my income this month is just icing--it's the readers I care about, and much gratitude to every one of them.) I'm thrilled. I'll cannot imagine a circumstance in which I'd click unpublish.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

anniejocoby said:


> What I see from you is a lack of a strategy. You've been publishing since 2011, and you have only three full length books out there. None of your books seem to be related to any of your other books, at least from looking at the covers. Now, there are the posts that talk about one size not fitting all, but I stand my ground - the best way to succeed in this world, in this indie world, is by doing all of the following - 1) write prolifically - at least four books per year; 2) write in a series or a serial; 3) write in a popular genre; 4) have a loss leader (or several) and 5) study the top sellers of your chosen genre.
> 
> And I know, I know - there's going to be all of these "but, but, but, but, such and such is making bank on selling standalone novels in [insert obscure genre here], and she only publishes one book a year." Look at it this way - let's say that you're playing the stock market. Who is going to succeed - the person who makes a dart board that has the names of companies on the board, and then throws the darts and invests in the ones where the darts land, or the person who really studies the marketplace? The dude throwing the darts might make a killing IF HE IS REALLY LUCKY. I don't know about you, but I would not really want to rely on getting lucky. I would go with tried and true methods of investing. That would give me better odds of succeeding.
> 
> ...


One question Nicholas Sparks books aren't serial or series ( they are love stories and people know what to expect ) would you class that essentially the same thing. Meaning the reason series work is because people know what is coming next. In his case it's always a small town, two people falling in love ( rinse, repeat )


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

kalel said:


> One question Nicholas Sparks books aren't serial or series ( they are love stories and people know what to expect ) would you class that essentially the same thing. Meaning the reason series work is because people know what is coming next. In his case it's always a small town, two people falling in love ( rinse, repeat )


For some people this works better than a series, because you're not limited to a single entry point and completely reliant on sell through which can lead to diminishing returns. I think strong branding is really important here and it can take a while to build a following.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2015)

Decon said:


> This has nothing to do with giving up writing, but it is a gloomy post.
> 
> I've been self-publishing since 2011, with one more book almost complete and two more in the pipeline, both 25,000 words in with 75,000 to go on each.
> 
> ...


I would expand the last one into a real book, or at least a novella (25 pages isn't a book, it's a short story), and change the cover. I am not sure what the cover on it is supposed to mean. The blurb is interesting, but seems to promise far more than 25 pages can deliver.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

You might be best separating the writing from the publishing. Just go right back to basics. Forget everything and let the industry continue without you while you write, write, write and fall in love with the process all over again. 

That's where I'm at now. The whole thing started to feel soulless to me after a while, where it never did before. Thankfully, I made some money at it and can now move on. So it's back to just telling the story, cutting down on forum-reading, staying away from industry news, that sort of thing. At least until I'm ready to get back in the game, or until the industry implodes, whichever comes first. 

When you come back you'll feel refreshed and ready to start again, stronger than ever.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

drno said:


> No gatekeeper is stopping readers from reading anybody's stories and if they are not liked by readers, how exactly is an agent or trad*e* publisher gonna change that?


Silly statements. There ARE gatekeepers in indie publishing: marketing, visibility, personal drive. They are, perhaps, more aloof than angry junior editors.

Declan exists, and he likes what he writes. Therefore, there must be others like Declan who will also like what he writes. It's just finding them that's the sticker. And the fact that there might not be as many as he needs to see a large number of sales.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I would expand the last one into a real book, or at least a novella (25 pages isn't a book, it's a short story), and change the cover. I am not sure what the cover on it is supposed to mean. The blurb is interesting, but seems to promise far more than 25 pages can deliver.


Nah, the story of The Enemy Within, or the German translation that's also available, Der Feind im Innern, is what it is, a short story art form with a beginning middle and ending all packed into 5,000 words and the depth of the title works on two levels.

It's probably only 12 pages, because the eBook has a UK an a US version of the same story. It is what it is advertised as with the title and short story in brackets, nothing more. so it's not fooling anyone.

I would defy anyone to say it doesn't live up to the promise of the blurb unless you can't stand short stories, or swearing. After reading, you may have a different view of the cover. Now there's a challenge. It costs nothing if you are in KU.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Decon said:


> Nah, the story of The Enemy Within, or the German translation that's also available, Der Feind im Innern, is what it is, a short story art form with a beginning middle and ending all packed into 5,000 words and the depth of the title works on two levels.
> 
> It's probably only 12 pages, because the eBook has a UK an a US version of the same story. It is what it is advertised as with the title and short story in brackets, nothing more. so it's not fooling anyone.
> 
> I would defy anyone to say it doesn't live up to the promise of the blurb unless you can't stand short stories, or swearing. After reading, you may have a different view of the cover. Now there's a challenge. It costs nothing if you are in KU.


After reading, the cover doesn't really matter... The cover is a sales piece, meant to draw a potential reader in. It should make sense and be compelling before a thing is read.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

anniejocoby said:


> What I see from you is a lack of a strategy. You've been publishing since 2011, and you have only three full length books out there. None of your books seem to be related to any of your other books, at least from looking at the covers. Now, there are the posts that talk about one size not fitting all, but I stand my ground - the best way to succeed in this world, in this indie world, is by doing all of the following - 1) write prolifically - at least four books per year; 2) write in a series or a serial; 3) write in a popular genre; 4) have a loss leader (or several) and 5) study the top sellers of your chosen genre.
> 
> And I know, I know - there's going to be all of these "but, but, but, but, such and such is making bank on selling standalone novels in [insert obscure genre here], and she only publishes one book a year." Look at it this way - let's say that you're playing the stock market. Who is going to succeed - the person who makes a dart board that has the names of companies on the board, and then throws the darts and invests in the ones where the darts land, or the person who really studies the marketplace? The dude throwing the darts might make a killing IF HE IS REALLY LUCKY. I don't know about you, but I would not really want to rely on getting lucky. I would go with tried and true methods of investing. That would give me better odds of succeeding.
> 
> ...


No flames. Good points. Well, the strategy was to fund book covers and editing of new works for self-publishing from an existing body of work. At this time that isn't working as it did. I've changed strategy a few times, but that one has remained constant. The changes to the way Amazon operate for visibility and marketing have crushed that for me as someone said. It's all well and good some saying change book covers, but if you can't see a return on the investment and the money isn't there, then that's a no go for me.

You're right about the output in the time I've been self-publishing. I could have produced more, especially looking at my current output. I could have put out more work, but decided to let a few die a natural death on my hard drive, because I didn't think they were up to scratch. This is the whole reason I am thinking of quitting self-publishing for now. I won't put out new stuff that isn't up to scratch and definitely wont put anything out without a professional cover and an edit, especially considering what some have said about my own designed short story covers. It is nothing that I don't already know. I am aware of the mistakes of my journey to date, but prefer not to look back, only forward.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

This is a cartoon. It's genius and you WON'T regret taking a look.

Though I agree self-publishing isn't for everyone, this is a very common problem with hard-to-achieve dreams in general.

http://theawkwardyeti.com/ambition/


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

KJC said:


> This is a cartoon. It's genius and you WON'T regret taking a look.
> 
> Though I agree self-publishing isn't for everyone, this is a very common problem with hard-to-achieve dreams in general.
> 
> http://theawkwardyeti.com/ambition/


Brilliant and true. Love it.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

If you believe in yourself, all things are possible!






(Almost)


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## MGalloway (Jun 21, 2011)

Decon said:


> When I consider the social media activity on forums such as on here, I get the impression that there are many like me who are floundering, with the same thoughts, but reluctant to share their lack of sales success for their self-doubt to be paraded in front of readers. I am also guessing here that many have given up self-publishing over the last year to eighteen months, having scratched the itch.


I think there is an ironic balance between checking stats, reading reviews, and ignoring all that just to write for the love of telling stories. Breaks can be invaluable and your output may actually increase as a result.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

KJC said:


> This is a cartoon. It's genius and you WON'T regret taking a look.
> 
> Though I agree self-publishing isn't for everyone, this is a very common problem with hard-to-achieve dreams in general.
> 
> http://theawkwardyeti.com/ambition/


Love it. And perfectly timed.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

KateDanley said:


> There is an old saying in the acting biz that, "If you can do something, ANYTHING, else and be happy... do it."
> 
> I used to take that as a call to arms, a challenge to fight the fight. But as the years passed, I realized that it was actually a bit of very loving, gentle advice. I wasted twelve years of my life in Hollywood trying to prove that I was going to be a success in the movie industry, and then one day I woke up and acknowledged the truth... I hated it. I didn't hate acting, I hated acting on film, kind of like you don't hate writing, you just aren't enjoying this indie publishing thing. That is huge and wonderful! And you know what? It was from that moment of clarity and truth in my life that things really took off. I stopped trying to force myself to do stuff I didn't enjoy. And suddenly, I had the time and energy to do the stuff I really love. I'm suddenly in London learning Shakespeare and writing plays that are getting NYC and U.K. readings and having the time of my life. It's like staying in a bad relationship. You'll miss out on the person of your dreams who is out there wondering where the heck you are.
> 
> So, I just wanted to say CONGRATULATIONS on figuring it out! The whole wide world now stands before you asking what is it that really tickles you, because you get to do that now. And that is awesome.


Yes, and ...

on average, most other things pay a lot better.


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2015)

To go back to OP's question: Anyone else thinking of hanging up their self-publishing boots?

No, I also follow Annie's method of ramp up production of serials and my income is going up. I think anybody who's floundering, who isn't ramping up production has no right to complain.


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

I still have no idea what opinion you're talking about and am unsure why you're being so obtuse about it. You explicitly mention the fact that you're a hybrid author so I'm assuming it's something to do with that... possibly. I really don't know. 

I feel like I'm missing something because in the same post your accusing someone of pre-emptively shutting down contrary opinions (which doesn't really seem that big a problem on a forum where you can just go ahead and post your opinion anyway and/or ignore her), you've pre-emptively decided that the royal "you" (who I'm assuming is everyone in this thread and not me specifically) has no interest in examining differing perspectives or are incapable of thinking for ourselves. 

This isn't true. I'm interested. Or I wouldn't have asked.

Is it just me and I've missed something really obvious or are there other people who don't know what "opinion" is (allegedly) being supressed here?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Molly Tomorrow said:


> I'm interested. Or I wouldn't have asked.


Me too.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Getting back to the actual topic at hand...

We did a full cast audio dramatization of "The Island of Doctor Moreau" which used to be in my sig. If you go on Audible and search for it, you can find it. It was a lot of fun but it was really expensive, and it took over a year to produce. The year before that we did Euripides' "Andromache," which started out life as a new translation in both an e-book and print book. When the audio did much better than the books, I changed my focus to audio. I have another dramatization ready to go, but for now, we're going to wait and see how the market shakes out (and basically try to save up for another year). 

What really worries me in audio is that the current pricing is supported by CDs. What I mean by that is that the trade pubbed CD pricing sets a public perception that ten hours of audio should cost $30, so a digital download at $20 is a bargain.  The more that the market moves towards digital, the more will be the erosion of this perception.  That's pretty much what happened in the music industry. The total music industry revenue now is something like half of what it was in the 90s, even though there are more consumers.  I posted recently about the new app for B&N audiobooks in the Google Play store. When I went to go read the reviews of the app, there were a bunch of one star reviews where the reviewer was shocked - shocked, I say, to find that they were actually expected to PAY for audiobooks!

So that might come down again to the whole problem of the perception of value in the market. And that perception now is that a tangible product that you can hold in your hands has value, and an intangible product should be free. So what I think about a lot is how to work in that space and somehow, eventually, make back my money.  I don't know what the answer is.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

zoe tate said:


> I have sneered at nobody "for giving marketing advice". I've sneered only at the express and repeated pointing out that differing opinions are unwelcome. In some cases (as seen in this very thread) before they've even appeared at all!


Bingo!

It's as bad as politics.


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## jamespalmer (Jan 10, 2011)

I know how you feel, and I guess it comes down to thinking about and reevaluating what you want to get out of your writing and why you write in the first place. Is it _just to make money? There are easier ways to make money.

If you hate your job, or aren't making enough money at your job, find another one. The economy is getting better, at least in some spots. This is something I'm working on doing early in the new year, as well as prospecting for freelance corporate writing work.

And you don't need a job to make money. Create a course on Udemy that teaches something cool to people who would pay good money to learn about it. Teach other authors how to self-publish their books. You don't have to be the ultimate expert, you just have to know more than the people you are teaching.

Also, you might want to look at and, if necessary, redefine your definition of success? Do you have to sell 500 copies a day, or make $10,000 a month? My guess would be probably not. I'm not interested in the Hugh Howeys or the Amanda Hockings of the self-publishing world. I'm interested in the men and women who make around a grand or so a month, because doing so would make a huge difference in my life and my business.

Oh, and read this fresh post from Hugh Howey: http://www.hughhowey.com/sky-gazing/

I hope this advice is helpful. Hang in there. The sky isn't falling. The world is turning._


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## Kenton Crowther (Jan 5, 2012)

I come from a small press poetry background so even the fact it is now easy to create a presentable product virtually for nothing that is in a 'shop window' and that people can look at and sample and may even buy, is amazing. 
Some real horror stories come out of the poetry world ('Outrageous Lilliput') where self delusion rules. Your life long you may consider you have done well if someone whose book you bought reciprocates. Where a sandwich and a slap on the back is considered a success.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

This is just my point of view - I get that there are others.

But I don't personally buy into the whole "do it because you love it" thing.

I mean - yes - I would not suggest someone try writing fiction for a living unless they love writing fiction. But the whole "do it for the love, because you're probably not going to make a living from it" mindset strikes me as self-defeating.

Sure, there are people who write just because they like writing, and don't really care about sales. Lots of them. And that's awesome.

I'm not one of them.

I don't think I would be doing this, if I couldn't make money from it. I might try doing storytelling in computer games, like I once did. Or do something else creative with my time and energy to making a living. But I WANT the security of working for myself, rather than relying on a corporation for income. And I WANT the pleasure of having what I am doing for a living being something I love to do.

Funny, but, you know - becoming a doctor is almost as hard as becoming a professional writer. Yet NOBODY ever suggests that someone should just "learn medicine for the love". There is an expectation that after a decade or so of hard work that you'll be able to make good money at your chosen field.

The same is true of writing. Guys, I don't know ANYONE who has put the hours into their writing that someone puts into becoming a doctor who isn't making a living. Four years of undergrad at ~30-40 hours a week of effort, plus four years of med school at ~40-60 hours a week of effort plus a year of internship at ~60-80 hours a week of effort.

I challenge ANYONE to go write 2000 hours a year for nine years, publishing everything they write, and not be making a living from their work. Hell, if you're spending only half that time writing new words (the other half working through edits, etc), then you've finished with about nine MILLION words in nine years.

And if you're not willing to work as hard to become a professional writer as a would-be doctor is willing to work to join that (easier!) profession, then it begs a simple question:

Why?


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> And if you're not willing to work as hard to become a professional writer as a would-be doctor is willing to work to join that (easier!) profession, then it begs a simple question:
> 
> Why?


For some people, writing for money and writing for spiritual reward are two totally different things. My partner writes for spiritual release and reward, and being a natural perfectionist that means she's written probably 10-15 unpublished novels in her 20+ years doing it. She writes for the characters expressly. Publishing has been a double edged sword: to a point, there's the joy of sharing what you've spilled yourself into. To another point, there's the feeling of prostituting your characters and their lives for the cheap entertainment of others. It leads to some decisions that aren't great for business but are better for her emotionally. But considering that she's never wanted to do anything else in her life other than write, what option does she have? To write and to publish.

So, that's one perspective. Just putting it out there.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Funny, but, you know - becoming a doctor is almost as hard as becoming a professional writer. Yet NOBODY ever suggests that someone should just "learn medicine for the love".


I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said with the comparison to being a doctor, rising to the same level of commitment of time and effort and what to expect, but I just wanted to point out that I've often heard it suggested for people to become doctors out of the love of helping people in need as opposed to doing it for the money.  In other words, you're giving people too much credit.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

4DCharacters said:


> For some people, writing for money and writing for spiritual reward are two totally different things. My partner writes for spiritual release and reward, and being a natural perfectionist that means she's written probably 10-15 unpublished novels in her 20+ years doing it. She writes for the characters expressly. Publishing has been a double edged sword: to a point, there's the joy of sharing what you've spilled yourself into. To another point, there's the feeling of prostituting your characters and their lives for the cheap entertainment of others. It leads to some decisions that aren't great for business but are better for her emotionally. But considering that she's never wanted to do anything else in her life other than write, what option does she have? To write and to publish.
> 
> So, that's one perspective. Just putting it out there.


And I think that's a great - and totally valid - answer to the "why" question! 

Like I said earlier in the post - nothing wrong with writing for spiritual release. Nothing wrong with writing for fun. Nothing wrong with writing because it's a hobby you enjoy and want to get better at. Lots of good reasons to write that are NOT "I want to make my living from this".

I guess I could better summarize my thoughts thus:

1) There are many reasons to write.
2) If your reason to write is to make a living from your writing, don't let the naysayers stop you. It is every bit as valid as those who write for any other reason. And your odds of success are not much worse than the odds of someone who sets off to become a doctor.
3) But if your goal is to make a living from your writing, expect to work at it just as hard as someone works at becoming a doctor - for just as many years. And then expect to continue working as many hours per week as anyone does in any other profession, for as long as you plan to continue making a living at it.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> 3) But if your goal is to make a living from your writing, expect to work at it just as hard as someone works at becoming a doctor - for just as many years. And then expect to continue working as many hours per week as anyone does in any other profession, for as long as you plan to continue making a living at it.


We totally agree there, as long as people remember there are a lot of different ways to exercise their writing brain than literally putting words on the page. We're still in the middle of an 8-year character development intensive for one of our series. We haven't put down lots of words on it yet, but the character development is phenomenal. We'll be ready soon.

But, geez, want to talk about 'taking forever to write a story'? There it is. Your point holds, though: this one series is almost a decade in the making. I think that counts for medical school, right?


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2015)

4DCharacters said:


> We totally agree there


Why do you always use the royal we?


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Because when I do, I'm speaking for two people. Our writing philosophy parallels each other enough that I'm comfortable doing that.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

My own experience is that nothing really improves writing except writing. So if you spend eight years working on one book, you still end up with the same amount of learning as if it had taken you a week to write it.

But that said, I get the impression that you're not JUST working on that one project - it's a sideline you think about sometimes, while working on other stuff. I do the same thing - there are stories in my head that I don't yet feel ready to write. My skills aren't where I want them to be for those projects, yet, so I do other things.

Not really a WRONG way to go about writing.

But if you want to become any sort of professional artist - writer included - the best way is to get good. The best way to get good is to do the thing A LOT. For writers, that means spending time writing new words. And yeah, the guys who spend 100 hours a month writing are going to get better at writing a LOT faster than those of us who don't have that much time to spend. So they're producing more work, AND they're getting better at a faster rate. Because they practice more.

Writing is something anyone can do. I am learning to play ukulele. I suck at it. I will almost certainly never commit the thousands of hours required to become REALLY good at any instrument. But I find enjoyment from strumming a few songs, and that's a good thing.   I find the practice worthwhile in its own right. Writing like that is fine, too.

But if I wanted to become a professional ukulele player - make my whole living that way - I would need to practice HARD. I mean, we're talking at least a couple thousand hours of serious work before I would be able to be passably decent. And maybe something like Malcolm's 10k hours before I mastered it.

The same is true of writing. If you want writing to be your profession, you need to practice daily. You need to put it ahead of other things. You need to put in thousands of hours both writing new words and reading outstanding things others have written. In short, if you want to make your living from writing, then you need to treat it like the high school grad who wants to be a doctor treats her schoolwork - just as seriously as the pre-med/medical student/intern treats what she is doing.

If you're not willing to do that, it's OK. You'll get the same value from your writing that I do from playing my ukulele. Which is AWESOME, and never to be belittled or under-rated.

But if you want to make a living writing, you need to put in as many hours getting there as any other difficult professional does. And then you need to KEEP working hard for as long as you want to retain a living.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> My own experience is that nothing really improves writing except writing. So if you spend eight years working on one book, you still end up with the same amount of learning as if it had taken you a week to write it.


It's more like 8 years working the ground work on a 30 book series that spans centuries and hundreds of characters. This includes learning of plots, world building, and so on as well.

But, time to digress from that. I agree about the quality of the prose and doing it more means doing it better. There's still the point, though, where writing a ton gets dull after a while if the proper balance isn't found. That's the thing we're personally willing to sacrifice, even with the promise of more words. And that does mean fewer stories per year. But for us, they're better stories for that.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Funny, but, you know - becoming a doctor is almost as hard as becoming a professional writer. Yet NOBODY ever suggests that someone should just "learn medicine for the love".


That's because when you enter medical school it's in the best interest of that school, and the faculty, that you graduate. Though it's hard work, there's a guaranteed prize at the end. You can predict your pay rate to some extent, and you know you'll be employed.

Not so with writing.

Also, studies have shown that when it comes to creativity in corporations that money incentives don't increase the productivity of their workers.

There's a reason people say you need to love writing.

**My partner is studying to be a doctor and is in his second year of graduate medical school (that means he'll be in internships practising next year (in Australia).

He often says to me "I can't believe you can choose a field with such high risks and often low rewards. I can't take those same risks, school guarantees my future in many ways that writing doesn't guarantee yours."

And I completely agree with him.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

I agree that there's a reason you need to love writing to do it. Just like any other difficult profession.

If you want an easy job, go flip burgers or work at a convenience store. (I've done them, they're not especially challenging, and there is ALWAYS work.)

Where I disagree is in the guaranteed prize.

There is no guarantee of getting into med school from pre-med (only 44.7%). You might burn four years of your life and $100,000 on a BS that's completely useless to you. It's a HUGE risk. There's no promise of graduating medical school, either (82% in 4 years, 94% finished within 5 years) although most do. And the pass rate for internal medicine boards is only 84% now.

So if you do EVERYTHING RIGHT and spend 6000 hours working in undergrad, 12,000 hours working at med school, and another 4000 hours as an intern, you have a chance to be one of the 35% of pre-med students who actually get to become a doctor after ~10 years of nonstop, more than full time work.

That's about 22,000 hours of work.

In writing terms, that's about 11 MILLION WORDS (assuming you spend half your time writing, and the other half doing other things like working on edits). Eleven million words is one hundred and ten 100k word books. Or two hundred and twenty 50k word books. Or any combination of the above.

Show me one person who has written and published 11 million words over the course of ten years, and is NOT making a living from their work. I don't think it's possible. In fact, what I see is this:

- Every single person I have seen who has written 500k+ words a year for two or more years is making a living from their work.
- Every single person I have seen who has written a million words in a year was at the making a living milestone around the end of that year.

If you actually work at your writing full time, your odds of making a living in just a couple of years is actually quite good. WAY better than your odds of becoming a doctor as a pre-med undergrad.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

anniejocoby said:


> K. I'll just be quiet from now on. You win.


Please don't, Annie! Many, many of us look forward to your posts, and would also like to see more of what Zoe has to say. You're both very successful with different strategies. Sharing those strategies for discussion is what this community is all about.

Annie... Keep sharing!

Zoe... Please share more!

Now hug it out, ladies


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

L.L. Akers said:


> Please don't, Annie! Many, many of us look forward to your posts, and would also like to see more of what Zoe has to say. You're both very successful with different strategies. Sharing those strategies for discussion is what this community is all about.
> 
> Annie... Keep sharing!
> 
> ...


You're sweet, but I think I'm done with trying to help. I'll still post, but I'll keep my more controversial views to myself. It's not worth it. Love you, though, Lisa!


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

anniejocoby said:


> You're sweet, but I think I'm done with trying to help. I'll still post, but I'll keep my more controversial views to myself. It's not worth it. Love you, though, Lisa!


Annie, I read your post. There wasn't anything controversial in it. It was good common sense, and excellent advice.

Like you said, it's not about your strategy or ANY strategy being the "one true best" way. But you need to have some sort of strategy. Failing to plan is planning to fail.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Annie, I read your post. There wasn't anything controversial in it. It was good common sense, and excellent advice.
> 
> Like you said, it's not about your strategy or ANY strategy being the "one true best" way. But you need to have some sort of strategy. Failing to plan is planning to fail.


I agree. I saw nothing at all controversial in your post. This entire topic is about how the OP was thinking of getting out of self-publishing because of diminishing sales and you provided a strategy that has worked not only for you but for a lot of people. You even ended your post by saying that the OP doesn't have to adopt your strategy to be successful, but that he should adopt some kind of strategy.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Thanks for the support, Perry and Kevin! I'll be around, but, perhaps like Zoe herself, I'm going to be anonymous. Really sucks, though, because all that I have ever done is try to help. Guess that's not welcome by some people around here.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

Oh, right. Writing.

I get the feeling that the reason these discussions devolve into a "commerce vs. art" mindset is because sometimes people ask for help without clarifying: they are writing what they love and want to continue to write at the pace they like and about the things they love, but they want those efforts to reap the same financial rewards as those who are studying the markets and writing for the readers at a faster pace.

There is nothing wrong with success = writing for love of writing, writing as a hobby, or any iteration of similar goals. It's even okay just to write for a few readers who are too small a group to support you full time, because making people happy is awesome, too!

Of course, I have rarely observed people on writing forums asking how to give away only free books without a subsequent boost in sales or how to target less than 500 people, but maybe the assumption is that if you know that specific group well enough, you should be able to find them.

I like writing for writing. I will write whether I make money at it or not. At this point, however, I need to support myself _through_ writing, so I'm writing what will sell at the moment.

The point is I have yet to hear a solution that will turn hobbyist behavior into full-time author income.

When I couldn't afford covers like the pros, I went and learned the skills from a friend and did another job, a job which funds the writing side of the business. I write what I love on my own time, and I still *like* most of what I write for money. It's a trade-off.

Basically, what Annie and Kevin said.

_Edited to remove reference to removed post(s). PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## jegarlick (Jun 23, 2013)

I would just like to offer this Decon. This writing gig is hard, (and not without constant ups and downs) and the recent changes in Amazon/the publishing world haven't helped. I feel your pain, believe me, I do...I've written a couple of these posts myself over the last year. I'd just like to say, if you're still enjoying the process of writing and sharing your stories...than don't give up, my friend. Might I also add, if you're at all questioning your own writing in any way (I'm not saying you should be, I haven't even read your work...this is just a general statement, because I know that I've looked at my own work this way when the chips feel down)...or think you might want to explore the possibility of expanding or stretching your story telling skills, for your OWN reasons, your OWN fulfilment (cause that's where it starts  with us loving our work)...there are some GREAT, worth the $ courses out there, that you can attend, like StoryMasters, for instance. I know some here have issues with some of the instructors there, but I'm speaking from my experience only (take it or leave it) having attended that seminar twice and several others (similar to that weekend) that the outcome was very enlightening and uplifting and useful. (The staff and editors there are wonderfully supportive, too, of all writers, trad or Indies!) In fact, I credit that experience for improving my plotting and character development, and overall knowledge of story telling, and above all for restoring my CONFIDENCE after years of not being able to sell my work traditionally...and bringing the joy back to the act of creation for me. (Again, my experience only.) So, it might just be the pick me up you need, too, dunno...just throwing out a (hope-filled) suggestion, feeling like you need one, from a place of support and caring. 'Cause believe me...this gig is HARD...and I've felt just like you, hell some days I still do! (check in with me tomorrow! HA!) Carry on my friend... I wish you the best!


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Yup.

Writing for a living is an awesome road.
Writing for a hobby is equally cool.

Where people run into trouble is when they SAY they want to write for a living, and then ACT like they are writing as a hobby. Distress results, because the actions being taken are not the ones which will help you reach the desired goal.

If you want to be a doctor, getting an undergrad BA in Theatre is probably not going to help much. If you want to write for a living but can't produce more than a couple thousand words of fiction a week, average, then there is a conflict between what you SAY you want and what you are actually DOING.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Yup.
> 
> Writing for a living is an awesome road.
> *Writing for a hobby is equally cool.*
> ...


Please, don't call it writing for a hobby. For some of us it's not some amateurish pastime.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> Thanks for the support, Perry and Kevin! I'll be around, but, perhaps like Zoe herself, I'm going to be anonymous. Really sucks, though, because all that I have ever done is try to help. Guess that's not welcome by some people around here.


I think you'll find it's welcome more than it's not. And for the people who seem to only want to shoot you down, the board has a very handy ignore feature.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Perry Constantine said:


> I think you'll find it's welcome more than it's not. And for the people who seem to only want to shoot you down, the board has a very handy ignore feature.


Thanks! I think I might use that!


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

There once was a young man who had been playing the violin since he could first pick one up. He dreamed of being a concert violinist. One day, the great master who he respected came to his town for a concert. After the concert, the young man met the master and told him of his dream. The master asked the young man to play something.
The young man played his heart out.
When he was done, the master was silent for a few moments, then shrugged and said: “Not enough fire.”
Then walked out.
The young man was crushed. He put his violin away and never played again. He went into another career. Years later the master came back to town for a concert. The man met the master at a party and reminded him of that audition so many years ago and how it had crushed him.
The master was surprised for a moment, then shrugged. “I tell everyone that. If what I said was enough to stop you, you truly didn’t have enough fire.”


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

You shouldn't have to use the ignore button, Annie.

You have always gone out of your way to lend a hand up to those following behind you. I read over your last few pages of posts, and I truly cannot see in any way where you say it's your way or the highway (my words). It makes me sad that when one of us hits a marker of success and sticks around to try to help the rest of us that are still floundering, they get accused of boasting, being controversial, being bossy, etc...

Same thing has happened over and over again... Rosalind, Hugh, Elizabeth, Joe, Russell...heck, I've even seen a few swipes at Wayne Stinson. I mean, for realsie? If you can take a swipe at Wayne, you need to dial it back a little, peeps!

If we can all look at all posts with an understanding that people are offering advice, options, encouragement... With good intentions. Take what you want and leave the rest! Then maybe we can get the midlisters and top performers who do 'like to help' to stick around here, instead of running everyone off.

If you don't agree with someone's advice, then post what _*your own *_is (not talking to you, Annie). Just general you's. Make it a discussion. Isn't that what this is? A Discussion Board?!

... I'm going to go kick something. This upsets me--another one bites the dust


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Okey Dokey said:


> You already have 6 titles out.
> Don't throw in the towel after only 3 years.
> It took best seller Dean Koontz 5 years before he started hitting the good money and a growing audience.
> Erle Stanley Gardner (Perry Mason) took about 7 years to learn the craft and started making enough money to equal his law practice income.
> ...


Quoting because awesome post. Very interesting and inspirational.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

L.L. Akers said:


> You shouldn't have to use the ignore button, Annie.
> 
> You have always gone out of your way to lend a hand up to those following behind you. I read over your last few pages of posts, and I truly cannot see in any way where you say it's your way or the highway (my words). It makes me sad that when one of us hits a marker of success and sticks around to try to help the rest of us that are still floundering, they get accused of boasting, being controversial, being bossy, etc...
> 
> ...


This is why you're one of my favorites here, Lisa! I always love your positive attitude!


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## Michael J Elliott (Dec 18, 2014)

I've only just started my journey as a writer and I do feel sorry for someone like yourself that has (like all of us) put so much time, effort and love into their work. I'm on the verge of publishing my first short story the ones to follow will be eventually made into a collection. I have no idea at this stage how my works will be received but I have tried to prepare myself by reading a lot of writng blogs and books, building a social network with published authors and generally trying to become involved in the writing community. I came into writing not to make money as my first goal but rather to see my name in print and to be able to say I've achieved something I'd dreamed about for a long time.
Perhaps you may just need a temporary break from writing, not give it up completely, but maybe get involved in some other writing related activity such as blogging or editing whilst at the same time continuing to write your novel notes, character developments etc when you want too not when you feel you must.
I truly wish you better success in 2015.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Writing for a living is an awesome road.
> Writing for a hobby is equally cool.





Andrew Ashling said:


> Please, don't call it writing for a hobby. For some of us it's not some amateurish pastime.


That's why he said that thing about, you know, "writing for a living," man. That was his, um, his point and stuff. If it's not an amateurish pastime, you should, like, act like it's not a hobby. And then it won't be. Or you can say that you're a professional, act like a hobbyist anyway, and be, like, a hobbyist. Man.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Please, don't call it writing for a hobby. For some of us it's not some amateurish pastime.


I was trying to show the range - full time pro, to hobbyist. There's a lot of room in the middle. And there's ROOM out there for all sorts of writers.
What's important is understanding your goals - and what it will take to achieve them. And then doing those things you need to do to get where you want to go.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, folks....

I've just read through this whole thread--trying to catch up on KBoards.  I see strong, varied opinions and that's fine.  What's not fine is attacking another member just because you disagree with his or her post.

I'm going to be doing some pruning, I think.  Gonna read through again.  If your post is edited or disappears, feel free to PM me, but I don't want to further derail this thread.

Betsy


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## storyteller (Feb 3, 2014)

Some of us want even our hobbies to pay or break even and not just be money sinks.  It's possible to be serious about hobbies, too.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Where I disagree is in the guaranteed prize.
> 
> There is no guarantee of getting into med school from pre-med (only 44.7%). You might burn four years of your life and $100,000 on a BS that's completely useless to you. It's a HUGE risk. There's no promise of graduating medical school, either (82% in 4 years, 94% finished within 5 years) although most do. And the pass rate for internal medicine boards is only 84% now.
> 
> ...


*"There is no guarantee of getting into med school from pre-med (only 44.7%). You might burn four years of your life and $100,000 on a BS that's completely useless to you. It's a HUGE risk. There's no promise of graduating medical school, either (82% in 4 years, 94% finished within 5 years) although most do. And the pass rate for internal medicine boards is only 84% now."*

Well given I was talking medical students and not pre-med (which is intended to weed out people who didn't get the required scores to enter directly into a medical degree), then sure, pre-med doesn't guarantee graduation.

First I'll discuss USA med students:

https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf

American med students are far more likely to finish their degrees than other professional academics.

_"The 96 percent 10-year completion rate for medical school students is high relative to other professional and academic graduates. By comparison, of all those who began a doctorate, master's, or first-professional degree program in 1993, after 10 years, only 62 percent had graduated, 15 percent were still enrolled, and 23 percent had left without a degree.2 With a 10-year attrition rate at less than four percent, medical school students are thus far less likely to leave school than the average postgraduate."_

The pass rate of medicine isn't some random statistic, its the expected result when you make your entry conditions higher than the conditions of the course <and> you spend disproportionate resources to make sure students get through. the school puts a lot of money into each student, they don't want people repeating years or failing to complete.

Also 96.9% of medical graduates are employed in full time employment within 5 years post graduation.

Next, Australian Stats

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/6/riding-wave-current-and-emerging-trends-graduates-australian-university-medical#9

_"We used an apparent completion rate of 93.1%, based on previous analysis of actual commencements and completions in Australian university medical schools"_

_**Interpret these findings with caution because completion rate is just a rate of people who start vs people who graduate. Some people, through the year, are offered research jobs, choose to withdraw because they've moved or because they've died. So the stats are probably higher. 
93.1% of people in Australia who start a medical degree complete that degree and go on to become doctors. it is not fair to say that the remaining 6.9% didn't find meaningful work, however, we can only conclude that they didn't complete the program_

I.E. People probably dropped out because they died or found other gainful employment.

*"Show me one person who has written and published 11 million words over the course of ten years, and is NOT making a living from their work. I don't think it's possible. In fact, what I see is this."*

In terms of providing evidence for our arguments, finding one person who wrote 11 million words and isn't making a living from writing would be an anecdote. Not evidence. Especially not statistically reliable evidence.

Also, 11 million published words or written words, doesn't guarantee anything. School is constructed to specifically and rigorously mould a person into a doctor. Writing is ambiguous, and feedback is ambiguous, and the industry is based on ambivalent factors.

Now if we found did a random sample of all those people who wrote 11 million words, say 60 people, and measured their incomes based on publishing, we might be able to say something about people who wrote 11 million words.

So I disagree emphatically that med school isn't, for the most part, guaranteed to get you to graduate (Not pre-med) and earn an income. So I also disagree with the other claims that were put forward in your argument.

I want to agree about being guaranteed a living, I really do and I very much envy those people in your experience who have made a doctor-level income out of publishing, I hope to get there.


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## Colorwheel (Nov 21, 2014)

KJC said:


> This is a cartoon. It's genius and you WON'T regret taking a look.
> 
> Though I agree self-publishing isn't for everyone, this is a very common problem with hard-to-achieve dreams in general.
> 
> http://theawkwardyeti.com/ambition/


Thank you so much for this. The tone was different from most "follow your dreams because you'll _show them_!" motivational fluff, and I appreciate that.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Where I disagree is in the guaranteed prize.
> 
> There is no guarantee of getting into med school from pre-med (only 44.7%). You might burn four years of your life and $100,000 on a BS that's completely useless to you. It's a HUGE risk. There's no promise of graduating medical school, either (82% in 4 years, 94% finished within 5 years) although most do. And the pass rate for internal medicine boards is only 84% now.
> 
> ...


The problem here is that you're basing the writing side on anecdotal evidence. If I said smoking doesn't cause lung cancer because no smoker I know has lung cancer, that would be a pretty ridiculous statement. Yes, if you write over 500K words a year for several years, you are more likely to make a living from writing than someone who only writes 50K a year. But there's no guarantee that you will make enough income to be a full-time writer. I'm not saying that it's all luck, I'm just saying that there are never any guarantees. Especially because writing the words is just one part of the equation. There are other things that need to be taken into account to become successful. You could write ten million words a year, but if your covers are crap, your books are unedited and your marketing nonexistent, I wouldn't count on having a better chance at success than a med student.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Perry Constantine said:


> The problem here is that you're basing the writing side on anecdotal evidence. If I said smoking doesn't cause lung cancer because no smoker I know has lung cancer, that would be a pretty ridiculous statement. Yes, if you write over 500K words a year for several years, you are more likely to make a living from writing than someone who only writes 50K a year. But there's no guarantee that you will make enough income to be a full-time writer. I'm not saying that it's all luck, I'm just saying that there are never any guarantees. Especially because writing the words is just one part of the equation. There are other things that need to be taken into account to become successful. You could write ten million words a year, but if your covers are crap, your books are unedited and your marketing nonexistent, I wouldn't count on having a better chance at success than a med student.


We're not lacking anecdotes proving my point - the point is the LACK of anecdotes arguing against what I am saying. There are none.

You're not wrong: you do need to spend a small amount of time working on production issues. Cleaning up edits. Ensuring you have good covers. Sure. Just like every student needs to ensure the bills are paid on time, and that they have their books for class, and a decent computer or tablet. If you're not doing the basics, then it doesn't matter how many hours you spend working on the course material - you CANNOT succeed. Same is true for writing. If the prose you publish is not pretty clean, you're toast before you start. If you don't put it up with good blurbs and covers, likewise. These are the basics.

And is there a guaranteed success, even if a writer covers the basics and writes a million words a year? I don't know. I've never seen one fail, never heard of one failing. But it's certainly possible some do. Maybe it's like med school - that 4% who don't pass even if given ten years.

Primary points:
1) Writing for a living takes time to build toward, unless yuou are crazy lucky. And luck is not a business plan. Expect years before you are making a living. How many years varies.
2) Expect to have to work as many hours per week as anyone else. If you're not working 40+ hours per week, why would you expect a full time income?
3) At least half your working hours should be spent on new prose. Well, maybe not half, if you're putting in 80 hour weeks. But 20+ a week seems like a good bet.
4) Manage the basics: publish professionally, in a way that looks as good as any other professional publisher.

I am sure there are other roads to successfully making a living from your writing. This is just one. But I don't know ANYONE who has managed the above and failed. Not even one anecdote demonstrating failure.

The whole thing is a little like the argument about working for yourself or earning a paycheck. Everyone "knows" that getting a paycheck from some company is more secure. Except that's not really true. It's "common wisdom" that isn't real. Likewise, everyone knows it is hard to make a living as a writer - and they're sort of right. It is hard WORK. Lots of hours writing. But the odds are pretty good, if you put the time in.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> We're not lacking anecdotes proving my point - the point is the LACK of anecdotes arguing against what I am saying. There are none.


If science used only anecdotes to prove or not prove things, we'd have a wonky world.

Saying that 'there are no anecdotes against something' does not mean 'my point is proven through my observations'. I applaud your enthusiasm and optimism in the face of no statistical support for your assertions. Sometimes a critical mind is a pain in the *expletive*


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

KJC, you're not wrong. 

On the flip side, you are asserting that going through pre-med and med school is a more sure way of making a living than spending a similar number of hours over a similar number of years on writing fiction. Do you have any non-anecdotal evidence to support your theory? Or is it based on "everyone knows that"?

Do you know anyone who professionally published a million words in a year who failed to make a living wage? Let's leave aside the years people put in to become doctors, and put in ONE year of med school level effort - one year, one million professionally published words. Has ANYONE done that and failed to make a living?

I don't think so.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> That's why he said that thing about, you know, "writing for a living," man. That was his, um, his point and stuff. If it's not an amateurish pastime, you should, like, act like it's not a hobby. And then it won't be. Or you can say that you're a professional, act like a hobbyist anyway, and be, like, a hobbyist. Man.


You, like, missed the point, man. It's not because you, um, think like it's just a hobby, because it's not _your_ road to, well, what you would consider success, that this is, well, like actually true, man. Different strokes and all that. Man.

And it is this kind of snark that tends to make these threads less useful. Pipe down, man. Like, really.


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> - Every single person I have seen who has written 500k+ words a year for two or more years is making a living from their work.
> - Every single person I have seen who has written a million words in a year was at the making a living milestone around the end of that year.


I guess I suck.

You've now met a guy who wrote 500k+ words a year for three years who isn't making a living at it.

Edit: That said, the income is growing.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

As the thread is descending into debates on how many trainee doctors can dance on the head of a pin I thought I would remind you what the OP actually said:



Decon said:


> This has nothing to do with giving up writing, but it is a gloomy post. ... Christmas was pathetic for me with less than $10 earned and that has made me give serious consideration to hanging up my self-publishing boots and going back to submitting to agents or nothing.


In other words Decon is not giving up writing, he is considering going the agented route. He asked if anyone else is considering either the agented route or if they are considering giving up writing. And just for the record he never claimed that he did not have a strategy that is what those with a different strategy have assumed.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> KJC, you're not wrong.
> 
> On the flip side, you are asserting that going through pre-med and med school is a more sure way of making a living than spending a similar number of hours over a similar number of years on writing fiction. Do you have any non-anecdotal evidence to support your theory? Or is it based on "everyone knows that"?
> 
> ...


Put it this way: I don't know one person who finished med school who isn't a working doctor making bank.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

The real question about med school is ... what's B. Justin Shier doing these days? Wish he'd drop by.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Perry Constantine said:


> Put it this way: I don't know one person who finished med school who isn't a working doctor making bank.


Fair. But then, I don't know one person who has written a million words a year for nine years straight (the writer equivalent to premed, med school, and the intern year) who isn't a working writer making bank.

So I guess it's about equal for both professions then? 
Put in the time, reap the rewards.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Mercia McMahon said:


> As the thread is descending into debates on how many trainee doctors can dance on the head of a pin I thought I would remind you what the OP actually said:
> 
> In other words Decon is not giving up writing, he is considering going the agented route. He asked if anyone else is considering either the agented route or if they are considering giving up writing. And just for the record he never claimed that he did not have a strategy that is what those with a different strategy have assumed.


Thanks, Mercia, for bringing the focus back to Decon and his post.

Betsy


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

shadowfox said:


> I guess I suck.
> 
> You've now met a guy who wrote 500k+ words a year for three years who isn't making a living at it.
> 
> Edit: That said, the income is growing.


I don't know anything about your marketing / promotion plans and I won't pretend to. But I think the fact that the income has grown and that you know you can produce work at a steady clip definitively proves you DON'T suck.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Mercia McMahon said:


> In other words Decon is not giving up writing, he is considering going the agented route. He asked if anyone else is considering either the agented route or if they are considering giving up writing. And just for the record he never claimed that he did not have a strategy that is what those with a different strategy have assumed.


Re: the agented route. It doesn't hurt to give it a try! Your writing is solid and you can craft a story, Decon, which puts you in the top 5% of what they see.

(I'm putting in the slushkiller link because it's always relevant, imo, whether a writer is planning on trade or self-publishing.
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html )

Good luck!


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't know what doctors have to do with the price of fish, but there you go.  

If you want to be a Doctor, but can't spare more than a few hours a day, or in a week, then you'll never make it through med school in a lifetime. 

That can't be said of authors in achieving their goal, trad or self-published. Not many work full time at writing of the millions who have published their work, by whatever means. 

That said, I will probably write 400,000 words or so this year. So let's look at that figure. To self-publish that amount in editing and book cover costs would cost around $3/4000, maybe more to produce the sort of end product I would be prepared to put out. That facts are that for some, those sort of figures are not doable out of disposable income. It's no one Else's problem, each author is different.  Some can put work out at no cost, I can't. 

All the OP sought was to find out if other people were in the same boat, to gain a feel for the market which rightly or wrongly seems to me be slipping away for those like me who self-publish. I'm not complaining, things change all the time. Obviously, those with increasing or good steady income will not be in that boat. 

I have a strategy as I have said and that is to go back to submitting to agents. Nothing is written in stone and that strategy could change in the flip of an eyelid if I find myself with surplus to requirement funds.

I wouldn't advise anyone against self-publishing.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Please realize that you can do everything right and still fail at self publishing.

Please.

There are no guarantees.

*Most books don't sell*.

There HAVE been plenty of authors over the past few years lamenting that they did A, B, C, D, E, and F like everyone was saying but they still weren't making a living with their writing. Those writers quietly fade off the forum. *Go back to the beginning threads of the forum and look at all the signatures you don't recognize. Sure, there are plenty of amateur book covers, but there are plenty of good covers we don't see around anymore, either. Click on them. Many are ranked 500,000+*.

Please don't neglect real life in your pursuit of the self-publishing dream.

Spend time with your children while they're young.

Nourish your relationships with everyone you love.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

SevenDays said:


> Re: the agented route. It doesn't hurt to give it a try! Your writing is solid and you can craft a story, Decon, which puts you in the top 5% of what they see.
> 
> (I'm putting in the slushkiller link because it's always relevant, imo, whether a writer is planning on trade or self-publishing.
> http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html )
> ...


Thanks. I can but try. At least I won't be doing it blind this time.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

Mercia McMahon said:


> And just for the record he never claimed that he did not have a strategy that is what those with a different strategy have assumed.


JFYI, no snark intended: Remarking on trends in posts (which is what _I_ did, not speaking for anyone else) is not the same as making an assumption.

Saying that people with different strategies are assuming things about Decon's strategy or lack thereof IS making an assumption.

Side note: I fully support authors who don't have the money to invest upfront in their work to seek traditional publication, provided they study advice on *contracts specifically* from people like The Passive Guy, Laura Resnick, and DWS/KKR and continue to write books no matter the outcome. Decon, if you love to write, submitting to publishers is a much better choice than quitting, provided those are the two choices you see ahead. I wish you the best!

The trends of which I spoke before are the overall questions and comments that occur in many threads asking about advice appear, at least to my eyes -- and I fully admit to spending more time reading on writing forums than is productive -- follow a familiar pattern in the discussions they generate, and I think those discussions would be even more productive and cause less strife if everyone posting reexamined their own goals and strategies and decided if they were aiming for a full-time living or not.

[quote author=Hutchinson]Some of us want even our hobbies to pay or break even and not just be money sinks. It's possible to be serious about hobbies, too.[/quote]

I totally understand that sentiment. That said, most of the writers I've encountered online who were making part-time income at the time I spoke with them or read their thoughts were _trying_ to make full-time income and were employing the strategies to make full-time income. The fact that the results equalled part-time income had much less to do with the strategies and tactics than they had to do with a bunch of individual factors like timing, season, genre, talent, algorithms, etc. In other words, they were not trying to make part-time income; that's just where they ended up.

I have no idea how to partially apply a strategy so that a book breaks even or makes part-time income. It's not equivalent to looking for part-time work as an employee in the average job market, where employers can clearly state the work is full-time or part-time. Since you are the employer, you must have a plan that you confidently feel will bring in a steady, set income, and in our profession, there are few guarantees. If you are both the employer and the only employee, it's hard to imagine a scenario where your company would aim to employ someone with a greater than likely chance that they would just bring in enough gross revenue to break even or make a bit of profit. That might be the writer's goal, but it really CAN'T be a publisher's goal unless that publisher can afford to run at a loss indefinitely or for long periods of time.

If you are looking for steady part-time work, I would recommend submitting work to medium-sized markets and taking on freelance writing on the side. It's a proven path and it can be done, although experienced writers have a much better chance of making bank from their short fiction because they have connections and bodies of previously published work.

If you want to self-publish and make part-time income solely from that, my advice would still be to pursue it with a strategy suited to a full-time job:

1. Research the bestseller lists. Are your writing in a genre that has a lot of full-time indies in it? If so, can you tweak your stories to fit the more general tropes of the bestsellers? Is there a niche within your genre that is underserved but hungry for more? Think of the books that people pick up at the airport. They're usually action-adventure thrillers, mysteries, or romance. From Data Guy's stats, it seems like indies have a better shot with Thrillers than with Mysteries.

2. Read the bestsellers in subgenres where you think you can do well. Pick up freebies or discounted books on promotions. Notice that a lot of bestsellers use this strategy to their advantage to hook readers.

3. Don't discount cross-genres, especially _____ Romance. That includes erotica.

4. Write up a business plan. Denise Grover Swank has a good if thorough example: http://thewritersguidetoepublishing.com/a-business-plan-for-self-published-authors-part-one-of-a-three-part-series

5. Set a daily word count goal and do everything you can to meet it. Then increase it until you can produce 2,000 new words a day.

6. Trade services if you can't afford covers or editing for longer works. Offer to swap stories to beta read. Short works don't need $300 covers. They can get by on $10 or less if you have basic graphic design skills and can emulate the look and feel of other short story successes.

7. Write a series. You don't have to write serials, but they also can be very profitable in the romance genre if played right. You have to have a thick skin for serials, though. It's safer to write related but self-contained shorts, novellas, or novels.

8. Format the books yourself. Garrett B Robinson has a great tutorial : http://garrettbrobinson.com/how-to-format-a-novel-file-organization/

9. Decide before your publish if you're going wide or going KU. I would go wide unless you're writing short erotica, short erotic romance, or already doing well in it, in which case you don't need this advice. If going wide, study specific tactics on each vendor, especially Google Play, because they change and may vary greatly from one store to the next.

10. Plan to stagger releases so that you don't go more than 30 days without releasing something new per name, even if it's just a short story loosely connected to your main series.

11. Include a call to action at the end of your books: a link for people to review your books, usually on Amazon, and a link to join your mailing list.

12. Study keywords and implement them effectively.

13. Study ad runs that do well for other authors in your genre. Then do the same things. Discount and then advertise on the appropriate book sites. This is too complex a process to explain in a paragraph, but there are plenty of good threads on BookBub as well as the many, many discount book sites as to how to time sales runs and ads effectively.

14. Set the first book in your series to free or 99c. Feel free to experiment as long as you monitor them like a hawk and switch back if something isn't working. YMMV as to which works better, but I would discount your first book permanently in one way or another.

15. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Erotica works faster to make money and with less promo but takes more output on a faster schedule. You have to study the hot categories and write the same thing differently several times, have a few stories ready to go, and perfect your keywords based on the bestsellers in your niche, as well as being careful not to run afoul of the filters and banned words / images / blurb language.

I'm sure I missed a lot of stuff, but it should be clear that the days of making it big without any marketing or planning are over, and it's difficult to do all of this without a significant time investment, which is why many people aim to do it with a full-time income in mind.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Decon said:


> Thanks. I can but try. At least I won't be doing it blind this time.


My concern with the agented route is the same it's been the last few years, but more so. It's not the agents that's the problem; it's the publishers. Duration of copyright rights grabs and non-compete clauses are now the norm, not the exception. If you are well enough known to get such clauses removed from your contract, then awesome. Otherwise...ouch. For me the trad pub route is a complete non-starter, because I'm not well enough known to get those sorts of deadly clauses removed from my contracts, and I won't sign a contract with a non-compete.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Please realize that you can do everything right and still fail at self publishing.
> 
> Please.
> 
> There are no guarantees.


The only thing which can cause you to fail at publishing is to stop.



> *Most books don't sell*.
> 
> There HAVE been plenty of authors over the past few years lamenting that they did A, B, C, D, E, and F like everyone was saying but they still weren't making a living with their writing. Those writers quietly fade off the forum. *Go back to the beginning threads of the forum and look at all the signatures you don't recognize. Sure, there are plenty of amateur book covers, but there are plenty of good covers we don't see around anymore, either. Click on them. Many are ranked 500,000+*.


Yes, if you STOP publishing, then you're going to fade away.

Good grief, KDP isn't even as old as it takes most writers to build a career. Anyone who started in 2007 and gave up before 2017 gave up earlier than it usually takes. Don't you see? Those people you talk about, who faded away? They're the violinists from Bob Maher's post above. If they gave up after a couple of years without success, then they didn't have the fire.



> Please don't neglect real life in your pursuit of the self-publishing dream.
> 
> Spend time with your children while they're young.
> 
> Nourish your relationships with everyone you love.


It is good to balance your work priorities with your other priorities.
If you do not make your writing and publishing a priority, you're not going to make a living from it. If that's not your goal, that's fine. But don't say you want to make a living as a writer, and then put everything else up as a higher priority.

When someone works 60 hours a week to pay the rent, we don't scold the person for spending so much time away from her family. When someone starts up an accounting business, we don't scold them for working long hours in those first years to get things going.

If this is what you want to do for a living, then it HAS to be as high a priority as punching the time clock is for someone who pays their rent that way. There's no other option. Yes, you should spend time with family and friends. Yes, balance in your life is good. But if you want to write for a living, expect to spend as many hours working on getting there as you would spend working to become a doctor, lawyer, teacher, or any other profession requiring 6+ years of full time education.

(If you don't care about writing for your living, if writing for a hobby or as a sideline is OK, then disregard the above.)


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> My concern with the agented route is the same it's been the last few years, but more so. It's not the agents that's the problem; it's the publishers. Duration of copyright rights grabs and non-compete clauses are now the norm, not the exception. If you are well enough known to get such clauses removed from your contract, then awesome. Otherwise...ouch. For me the trad pub route is a complete non-starter, because I'm not well enough known to get those sorts of deadly clauses removed from my contracts, and I won't sign a contract with a non-compete.


A good agent--and there are plenty of them--can get those deadly clauses removed without much fuss, whether you're a nobody or not. And my own non-compete is very, very narrow (in my favor). I'd go so far as to say it's downright reasonable.


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## BlueGen (Jun 14, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> don't say you want to make a living as a writer, and then put everything else up as a higher priority.


I just clicked on one of your books but was taken to a blank page. Did you know your links aren't working?


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)




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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> So I guess it's about equal for both professions then?


No.

You're using confirmation bias to draw conclusions about your hypothesis, and without _objective _evidence, continuing to sprout that hypothesis as having factual truth is incorrect.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

First of all, what the heck do I know? I haven't published a single thing yet. (Someone else may also have pointed out what I'm about to say) But surely your covers are playing a huge part in this..? Hope you don't take offence, but I don't think they're really going to pull in the average browser looking for something to read. Rather than call it a day, get some cash together and stump up for a more pro set of covers. These are doing you no favours.


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## C. E. Stocker (Sep 18, 2014)

For the OP's general guestion, here's my version of events. After writing fiction/short stories since I was fifteen--for decades, now--with no success going the traditional route, I decided to try out self-publishing. I just started with a couple short stories recently on Amazon, and started with the intention of building a catalog and presence and working towards a steady SECOND income through self-publishing. I'm now having my doubts about whether this is possible, anymore, for several reasons. 

For starters, those two stories haven't sold. I found this board unfortunately after I published them. The knowledge on covers, blurbs, marketing, may have helped--my covers are abysmal, the blurbs not much better, wrong genre, the list is pretty long. 

I'm in a position where I don't exactly hate my "real" job--it combines two things I like, writing and technology. And I get paid to do that, just not as much as I really need. So the incentive, time, and motivation for me are tough to come by.

And I think in some ways, as much as I love to write and create stories and have dreamed so long to find an audience, I'm not sure this will ever be anything more than a hobby for me. I agree with all the advice I've ever gotten about writing when it comes to the time it takes, and the energy and effort needed, and how to really succeed it has to be a full-time endeavor, you can't part-time it. But, still, this is just one of those professions where the tried-and-true will never be a guarantee of success. You can put 10,000 hours (or a million hours, as suggested above) into writing, and really the only guarantee you get back is that you're out 10,000 hours. That's not true of many endeavors when it comes to life. So as I'm working through where I'm at and where I want to go with this self-publishing endeavor, I have to be honest with myself and recognize whether this IS just an itch I felt I had to scratch. 

So, you're not alone, and i wish you luck in your endeavors. This forum is certainly the place to be for guidance--if there is more self-publishing for me, I've got to believe it'll be better just from the information I've found here. But at the same time, there's never going to be a formula for this--it's just not that kind of thing you can ever figure out (and, really, I'd think that would be kind of boring). It helps to know this, and that it should never really be a sign of failure if your self-publishing doesn't make for a successful living.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

KJC said:


> No.
> 
> You're using confirmation bias to draw conclusions about your hypothesis, and without _objective _evidence, continuing to sprout that hypothesis as having factual truth is incorrect.


Again, you're not wrong, KJC.

But then, all the arguments on the other side are ALSO based on confirmation bias with no objective evidence.

People suppose that writing is unreliable, luck based, and a long shot because they've been told that is so. But in truth, there's no evidence to support that claim, and a lot to deny it - IF you look at writing the same way you would look at any other highly skilled profession.

But people don't look at writing like a profession. Nobody picks up a violin and expects to play in a professional orchestra a year later, yet people write a book or two over the course of a year and are stunned when it doesn't make them a living. The violinist knows he needs to play for years to become skilled enough to be a professional.

Writing is no different, but people treat it like it is.

Worse, some people seem to expect to make a living from writing without working at it like a profession. Nobody expects to become a doctor by studying an hour a day. It's ludicrous. But people write just one hour a day, and expect to become professional writers. And the fact is: it'll take an hour a day writer five times as long to go pro as a five hour a day writer, and the odds of EVER doing it are slimmer, because the pros are the ones working full time at their job.

That's all I was saying, KJC. It is possible to invest 2400 hours a year into writing and publishing over ten years and still fail, sure. But I think it's INCREDIBLY unlikely.

Is it possible to invest 200 hours a year over three years and fail to make a living? Heck yes. Likely, even.

You get out of it what you put in.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

> But, still, this is just one of those professions where the tried-and-true will never be a guarantee of success. You can put 10,000 hours (or a million hours, as suggested above) into writing, and really the only guarantee you get back is that you're out 10,000 hours. That's not true of many endeavors when it comes to life.


C.E., thanks for the awesome example of what I am talking about. This is a myth, without substantiation.

There are a LOT of professions where you can spend thousands of hours working and end up with nothing at all for it. As I pointed out above, you can spend about 6000 hours getting a BS in PreMed, and then be one of the 55.3% of premed graduates who don't get into medical school. All that time, wasted...? Some people are probably crushed by that. Others find another way to enter medicine, or find another way to use their degree, or go on to do something wildly different.

I don't think 55.3% of writers who spend 6000 hours writing and publishing over four years fail to make a living. If half that time is writing time, then that's about 750,000 new words of fiction published each of those four years. There are probably some people who have done that and not YET reached success (success here defined as making a living), but I doubt it's many.

What I think really happens is that most people don't spend 6000 hours over four years on writing. They don't come even close. They eke out a few thousand words a week, feel thrilled when they reach 100k words at the end of the year, and don't understand why working 2 hours a week at their job doesn't earn them a full time living.

I don't know many jobs where you can work 2 hours a week and make a living from it. Writing is definitely not one (unless you get lottery winner lucky, and luck is not a business plan).

I'm as guilty as the rest, guys. I have spent years trying to slowly work my speed up. This past few months, I've been averaging 40k words a month or so, which is TOO SLOW.  I know that, though, and I am working on bringing my speed up (by working more hours). I plan to be doing 100k months by the end of the year.

Nothing is a guaranteed win. But the odds are VERY good for writers, today - IF they put in the time.


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## philstern (Mar 14, 2011)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I'm pretty sure we've tapped out the "boom" of this new industry. It's a rapidly maturing and saturating marketing.


Agreed. There was an article today that said ebooks were settling in at 25%-30% of all publishing income. It's settled down to what should be the future norm.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Again, you're not wrong, KJC.


You say I'm not wrong, but then continue to post with A) no specific indications with what you think I'm 'not wrong' about. B) variations of arguments you've already made.

There is one point we agree on though...which I think is part of the point you're trying to make, it's hard to tell.

That hard works is required to succeed in the writing profession. Also, the 10,000 hour stuff by that guy who likes to talk about stats was debunked http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121114-gladwells-10000-hour-rule-myth <--- this article is actually really interesting.

I don't know why you continue comparing pre-med to writing. The comparison itself is a bit absurd lol.

Finally, I think we all want to assume that hard work guarantees success, but it doesn't. And it's sad that it doesn't. A person who writes 500,000 words in a year, does not have a better chance to sell better than someone who writes 100,00 words a year. Because unless we know their ability, their time in the craft, their ability to improve, their initial skill set, their marketing ability, their publishing ability, their product, etc etc... there's not much we can really say about either person.

What's 10,000 hours without some initial ability, and the smarts to know _how_ to develop ones skills?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misleading_vividness

** Note, this post contains 5 uses of the word ability. I can't be bothered editing it. Sorry.

^ Now it's six.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

kalel said:


>


Now there's a guy I could do to be a Beta reader for the 1st book of a trilogy I've almost completed. His seal of approval would be worth its weight in gold.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

philstern said:


> Agreed. There was an article today that said ebooks were settling in at 25%-30% of all publishing income. It's settled down to what should be the future norm.


The ebook market in the US continues to grow at the same $400-500 million per year that it has been growing at for several years now. The data cited for numbers like the above is generally AAP data, which misses all indie ebook sales and most small press ebook sales, too. It's missing almost half of the ebook picture.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

@KJC

I think we agree that hard work is essential. I also agree about the "10,000 hour myth". There's no major number at which you suddenly get good at something. On average, people will be better after spending 9000 hours at something than they were at 8k, better at 10k than they were at 9k, and better at 11k than they were at 10k hours. Evidence strongly suggests that skill at something is a slope which increases with practice, not a "hump to get over".

The premed comparison is a bit absurd... But someone earlier talked about a premed friend who couldn't believe the risk involved in a writing career. And oddly, I think the risk level is LOWER for the writer than it is for the premed. Assuming similar levels of work output over a similar time frame. 

I also agree that hard work does not *guarantee* success. But it VASTLY improves your odds of succeeding. The numbers I've tossed about here are crazy high. But a writer who steps up and publishes a million words a year for ten years... The odds of failing, after that level of work, are VERY low. Because after ten million words written, your skills have grown enormously. After that many books published, you have a huge stock for readers to buy. And after building consistent strong habits for ten years, you have a good shot at keeping it going for the long run. 

Hard work doesn't guarantee success at ANYTHING. But it improves your chances in writing just as well as any other profession.


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## storyteller (Feb 3, 2014)

Gladwell was misread.  He never said 10k hours would make you good at something, only that people with a high level of natural talent were surprisingly likely to have put in about 10k hours.  This is, broadly speaking, the way of things.  Without some baseline of natural skill, it's unlikely one will just plug away, but with that baseline, many people with such levels of talent put in something like 10k hours.  It's just not every such talented person.

Separate from that, the idea that no practice is ok is fatal enough to writers, so why even try to claim lots of practice is bad and a recipe for failure?


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## trublue (Jul 7, 2012)

C. Gockel said:


> I don't think you can make it in this business if you don't write serials or series ... if you're not going to do that, I would search high and low for a traditional publisher who can get you into bookstores, Target, Walmart, etc.


Yes^^


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## evawallace (Aug 7, 2014)

Hi All, 

I've only been writing a year and got two books out. I've done very little promo work but I'm starting to get that underway. My sales are few and far between, so I'm making no money at this. But one thing that keeps me going in the hope I'll be able to make a living at this is that those that have read my books say they are funny and when is the next book out. I write because I like to write and my readers want to know how the story ends. If I had to rely on the money I'd starve   As a self-pubber I think your income is always limited, this is why I'm looking for a publisher.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I plan to hang up the boots right after I've published my swan song, _How I Made a Hundred Dollars in Self-Publishing_.


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## Stewart Matthews (Nov 21, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> I plan to hang up the boots right after I've published my swan song, _How I Made a Hundred Dollars in Self-Publishing_.


Whoa! Tell me your secret, dude! I'm still trying to break into that crazy triple-digit money (truly, I am).


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## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

Marian wrote:

Write because you love to write. Because you have stories to tell. But making a consistent living writing has always been a tough nut to crack, and while a few prolific authors achieve it, it's not anywhere near the number of authors who try.

I agree with Marian, and many other thoughtful posts here. You won't know me as I only visit KB briefly once a week...I've been working a day job & writing for a small press publisher. I also started by self-publishing my first 2 mysteries which I sell only in print now, but I have been writing for over 30 years, still love it, and still don't make a living from it. 5 of the 6 books I've published were released in the past 6 years, and as you can imagine, I'm not prolific. Nor do my ebooks sell well. I do little marketing and my publisher sets them at $7.99. The price is their decision, how much effort I put into marketing is mine, and I live with my choices. My expectations aren't high, and sure, I'd like to earn more, but I'm still writing because I still love it after all these years. When I stop enjoying the writing process, then I'll find something else to do.

I also agree with the poster, who said that writing is a business, which is how I've come to think of it. Over the past 4 years, my business has earned a small profit, oddly enough from print sales. (I've learned the value of selling them at Christmas craft fairs). Writing, publishing, marketing, and selling is always a trial and error thing. Strategies and trends change, and I agree that the ebook boom with Amazon is probably over. Kindles are full, freebies are numerous, traditional publishers are learning to compete, and you all know what KU has done to sales.

But it all comes down whether you still love writing, and whether you want to leave all of your income eggs in one basket. For me, I've never wanted to, but that's just me.

Debra


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

To love writing, you should love what you've written. I haven't reached that point, and I wrote for a living for countless years before I retired.

What I like (as opposed to love) is that I have something purposeful to do every day, projects, creative works, reasons to get out of bed. If writing and self-publishing were not available, I'd find something else. When the fickle marketplace decides I should hang up my boots, I'll do so, not with reluctance or regrets but with anticipation of the next big thing. Which I probably won't love either.


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

Al Stevens said:


> I plan to hang up the boots right after I've published my swan song, _How I Made a Hundred Dollars in Self-Publishing_.


You, sir, aspire to greatness.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Decon said:


> His seal of approval would be worth its weight in gold hair.


I couldn't help myself ...


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

judygoodwin said:


> One has to remember that hobbies are not meant to make much money. Say I like to knit. I knit a couple scarves. I can't realistically expect to be paid a lot for them. So if you're approaching writing the same way, it's the same thing. More effort=more product=more chance of earning something from that work. And that goes back to having a strategy.


One also has to remember that not everyone who doesn't want to produce more product at any cost and chase the mighty dollar is therefore a hobbyist, even if you call them that. 

The divide is not "Wants to make money by writing = professional" versus "Doesn't think money is the be all and end all of writing = hobbyist/amateur." Neither is "Writes mainly for money = exploitative mercantile scribbler" versus "Writes for passion only = true artist."


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I forget who said this:  "Whenever someone says it isn't about the money, it's usually about the money."

But, in this case, if you're in it for the money, you're probably in the wrong place. You get better odds with the lottery. (Please don't ask for links to my research to back up that claim. I didn't do any.  )


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

Andrew Ashling said:


> The divide is not "Wants to make money by writing = professional" versus "Doesn't think money is the be all and end all of writing = hobbyist/amateur." Neither is "Writes mainly for money = exploitative mercantile scribbler" versus "Writes for passion only = true artist."


I like this, but I seem to be stuck in between categories. I want to make money by writing (fiction) but I'm coming to terms with the odds -- it probably won't happen, and I'm likely to keep writing even if it's a bust as a business proposition.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Andrew Ashling said:


> The divide is not "Wants to make money by writing = professional" versus "Doesn't think money is the be all and end all of writing = hobbyist/amateur." Neither is "Writes mainly for money = exploitative mercantile scribbler" versus "Writes for passion only = true artist."


I'm trying to stay out of this thread, but I want to say that this has my +1000. So many shades of grey.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Andrew Ashling said:


> One also has to remember that not everyone who doesn't want to produce more product at any cost and chase the mighty dollar is therefore a hobbyist, even if you call them that.
> 
> The divide is not "Wants to make money by writing = professional" versus "Doesn't think money is the be all and end all of writing = hobbyist/amateur." Neither is "Writes mainly for money = exploitative mercantile scribbler" versus "Writes for passion only = true artist."


True. 
Ruben and the artists of his time, opened schools. They would sketch out the paintings, maybe finish some of the more intricate colored skin, then let their students fill in the rest. 
Why would they open schools? Because they couldn't quite make a living just *doing.* their art. Rich patrons were few and far between and notorious for not paying their bills. Most of their big paintings weren't done for the painting, but so they could be copied into tapestries the big intricate wall coverings to enclose the drafty rooms of their castles and monasteries. I'm lucky enough to live near the Ringling museum, one of the few places with walls large enough to showcase the suckers.

I said it much earlier in this thread, but few creatives _ever_ make a lifetime living just doing their *thing*, including Shakespeare, Mark Twain, Joyce, KIng (first eight years). Most had to work other jobs for at least part of their life. If these great writers couldn't swing it, you're in good company if you never do, or do for only a few years.

The average advance is somewhere between 3.5K and 10K per book. That's peanuts. One good Bookbub ad and you can blow that out of the water in one month.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

I agree. There is no divide between the two extremes - there are a million shades. 

It's not one or the other.  There's even a lot of variation on what being a "professional" means. Do you have to make your whole living as a writer to be a pro, or is just some income enough? If the latter, how much "counts"?

Meaningless questions, IMHO. That's why I try to use phrases like "full time writer" or "make your living" instead of the vague and much debated "professional".


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

judygoodwin said:


> It's all good, but those who say they want to make money have to understand how money gets made in selling books.


There is no One and Only True Way of Making Money by Writing. These kind of concepts belong in politics and religion. Which Lady Forum Decorum might frown upon.

I don't consider myself an amateur or an hobbyist. I wrote a few years at my series of seven doorstoppers. For the sheer joy of writing and storytelling and nothing else.

You seriously think I don't want to make money? I didn't want to write to market, and now I have to find or make a market for what I've written.

Can someone make a thread with clever tips about that?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Andrew Ashling said:


> There is no One and Only True Way of Making Money by Writing. These kind of concepts belong in politics and religion. Which Lady Forum Decorum might frown upon.
> 
> I don't consider myself an amateur or an hobbyist. I wrote a few years at my series of seven doorstoppers. For the sheer joy of writing and storytelling and nothing else.
> 
> ...


Your genre could take off like wildfire any minute, and if it does, you have the product available. Who knew the flop of a book _Moby Dick_ (


Spoiler



I know there are puns there


) would become a hit on its fiftieth year anniversary? 
Or that Shakespeare, that bawdy guy, would be seen as a literary genius on down the road? Just imagine the sixteenth century writers and critics who are rolling in their graves at that one!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Andrew Ashling said:


> There is no One and Only True Way of Making Money by Writing. These kind of concepts belong in politics and religion. Which Lady Forum Decorum might frown upon.


*frowns*


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Lisa Grace said:


> Your genre could take off like wildfire any minute, and if it does, you have the product available. Who knew the flop Moby Dick (
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Yes, it might. There are some faint signs it is gaining in popularity. I just hope the wildfire takes off during my lifetime. But, I want to go at this proactively. You can either "give the readers what they want," or agree with Steve Jobs that "people don't know what they want until you show it to them." Meh. At the very least it will be an interesting experiment.

I agree with both your posts/points about Shakespeare. But the Moby Dick thing... Seriously, I'm shocked. I'll have you know that I'm not that kind of guy. We clearly move in different circles, young lady.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Yes, it might. There are some faint signs it is gaining in popularity. I just hope the wildfire takes off during my lifetime. But, I want to go at this proactively. You can either "give the readers what they want," or agree with Steve Jobs that "people don't know what they want until you show it to them."


TO do it the Steve Jobs way, you make a product that promises them the end result--what they don't know is how they can get that. Products like Proactiv do that, too- consistently clear skin is what they want. But they didn't know they should do it in three steps, twice a day every day, with as little medicine as will be effective. (according to that product)

Our job, if we won't follow trends, is to make that end promise to our customers. And then deliver it in a way that the end result is more than what they expected. Not only were they entertained, they were touched on a deeper level. Perhaps even a spiritual one (that's our goal, anyway.) via the characters they read. But I think a lot of authors in marketing would be helped by knowing exactly what they want their books to deliver. Then they can focus on that and market accordingly.


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## Phil McDermott (Jan 19, 2015)

Hey everyone! Just signed up to K-boards, about to start my first book and I'm really looking forward to getting involved in the exciting self-publishing revolution that I've heard so much about... oh.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Phil McDermott said:


> Hey everyone! Just signed up to K-boards, about to start my first book and I'm really looking forward to getting involved in the exciting self-publishing revolution that I've heard so much about... oh.


Don' t let my post put you off. You have to be it it to win it as they say. Just make sure that you research what is required to be in with a chance. It's better to start now than when I did. In the wild west days,there wasn't as much information on all aspects of getting a book to market. Now there is plenty. A lot has happened since I posted this thread, not least because some of the great support I have had from kindleboarders on writers cafe, both with advice on here, private messages of support and emails, with some offering practical help. I now have a strategy to continue self-publishing though I'll still be submitting to agents for some of my work and I'll be outlining the plan on here soon, which will demonstrate the help I have had.

Clearly with over 8,000 hits on the thread, my original post struck a note. There will be always those who flounder and sometimes you have to re-evaluate your situation. My situation is personal to me, just as how I move forward will be personal to me. Many who like me are struggling wont see this thread as negative and will try and reinvent themselves. Many will take from it the advice given and put it to some use... some won't. But none the less the revolution is still here and for those who are doing it right and with a little luck, some of them are, and will in the future make great strides, and money.

All I can say is that publishing in all its forms mirrors life, there are winners and losers. Only like in life, the term losers is in the eye of the beholder and they can still take satisfaction with what they have achieved. What's that other cliche that sums it up. "Better to have lived and loved than never having loved at all."


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Decon said:


> All I can say is that publishing in all its forms mirrors life, there are winners and losers.


It also mirrors it like this: those who survive live longer.


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## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

It's still too much fun to walk away from.


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

I've been reading this dang thread and I just wanna know: where do we buy these so-called "self-publishing boots"?!?!   All I got is the regular kind and they ain't working!


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Hey Deacon,

I haven't read this whole thread, but I want to say good luck! Maybe it's time the put the breaks on self publishing and look for an agent to go the traditional publishing route. There is absolutely nothing wrong with traditional publishing. It has pros and cons just like self-publishing.

But, if you'd like to stay self-published, perhaps you'll reconsider your covers. They don't tell me much about the genre and they're not the most aesthetically pleasing.

There's a lot of good advice on these boards about increasing your odds of success (write a series, make one perma free, buy good ads). I don't know if they work, but it's hard out there, no matter your genre.


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## Phil McDermott (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanks for the encouraging words. The discussion that your post has started is a useful one, so thanks for sharing your experiences too. It's good to hear that you've jumped back on the horse for another go.


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## hardnutt (Nov 19, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> If you believe in yourself, all things are possible!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, Hugh! I think that poor guy was brain-dead BEFORE he started (never mind after)!


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## UnicornEmily (Jul 2, 2011)

I feel you, Decon.  I often feel exactly the same way about my comics.  So much work for so much . . . silence.

I plan to keep going, even if I never make it as a "success," because I love my stories and I feel like there are a few dozen people out there for whom my stories make a huge difference.  (I may not get much of it, but the fan-mail I receive is heartfelt and wonderful.)


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Crystal_ said:


> Hey Deacon,
> 
> But, if you'd like to stay self-published, perhaps you'll reconsider your covers. They don't tell me much about the genre and they're not the most aesthetically pleasing.


Yeah, thanks Crystal. I agree about the covers, especially for the shorts, but the full length are professionally designed, regardless. Luckily, since I posted this thread, fellow kindleboarder, Adrijus of http://www.rockingbookcovers.com/premade-covers/ the book designer, came to the rescue with a seriously discounted deal for 13 of his gritty pre-made covers. I'd been mulling over his covers for some time as they fit the grunge gritty style I go for in my stories.

Here is what I had.


















And here is what I have now.


















At the end of the day, I now have a strategy to continue self-publishing for now. I'll report back it works. (Or if it doesn't)

Ive spent all week re-formatting all my books and adding new covers, paying attention to back matter, re garnering reviews, pointing to other work, and a mailing list. I've also added a WIP to Wattpad for the first time. A kindleboarder helped me out with some editing on on short story and we've agreed to exchange beta reads for future work. There's much more, but it's back to writing for me.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

Decon said:


> Yeah, thanks Crystal. I agree about the covers, especially for the shorts, but the full length are professionally designed, regardless. Luckily, since I posted this thread, fellow kindleboarder, Adrijus of http://www.rockingbookcovers.com/premade-covers/ the book designer, came to the rescue with a seriously discounted deal for 13 of his gritty pre-made covers. I'd been mulling over his covers for some time as they fit the grunge gritty style I go for in my stories.
> 
> Here is what I had.
> 
> ...


These are awesome


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Decon said:


> Yeah, thanks Crystal. I agree about the covers, especially for the shorts, but the full length are professionally designed, regardless. Luckily, since I posted this thread, fellow kindleboarder, Adrijus of http://www.rockingbookcovers.com/premade-covers/ the book designer, came to the rescue with a seriously discounted deal for 13 of his gritty pre-made covers. I'd been mulling over his covers for some time as they fit the grunge gritty style I go for in my stories.
> 
> Here is what I had.
> 
> ...


Love the new covers. That was really wonderful of him.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Decon said:


> Yeah, thanks Crystal. I agree about the covers, especially for the shorts, but the full length are professionally designed, regardless. Luckily, since I posted this thread, fellow kindleboarder, Adrijus of http://www.rockingbookcovers.com/premade-covers/ the book designer, came to the rescue with a seriously discounted deal for 13 of his gritty pre-made covers. I'd been mulling over his covers for some time as they fit the grunge gritty style I go for in my stories.
> 
> Here is what I had.
> 
> ...


Sweet. I'm sure those will be well worth it.

(also, I've been calling you Declan--I'm sosorry! It was so close, yet so far...)


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Those new covers are awesome.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Great covers, Declan. A great improvement.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

CoraBuhlert said:


> Great covers, Declan. A great improvement.


+1


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

We're all rooting for you, Decon 

(And lol on that board video)


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

I, for one, love a good cover refresh.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Thanks for shout out Declan! I think with refresh and strategy update, things can work out well. As said, building up the email list with so many books will be easier will give you all kinds of testing options, permafrees, paid and free giveaway for email list sign up etc. With each book promotion others will get more attention and build list, and if you get one of them on BookBub by the end of the year... I think it would be huge huge boost (again, not just because of BB, but because of volume of books you have). 

2015 will be an exciting year. Not easy but you have lots of clay to work with so I think you will do well!


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## Tommy Donbavand (Jan 23, 2015)

Hi Declan

First of all - fantastic new covers!  I really hope they make a big difference in your sales.

I'm heading in the opposite direction at the moment; my children's books are traditionally published, I have an agent, etc.  I'm moderately successful in what I do, but I also want to write something darker, longer and meatier (under a pseudonym as I don't want my young readers stumbling across anything inappropriate), so I'm just starting out on the self-publishing journey.  So far it's looking like I'll have a lot of work on my hands - but in return for a lot more control than I have with my work at the moment.

Anyhoo - I just wanted to say that, if you do decide to turn your attentions towards traditional publishing - I've been there and done that and have been writing full time for over eight years now.  Please do PM me if there are any specific questions you think I might be able to help you with.  I'm no expert by any means - just a jobbing kids' writer - but I've been at it a long time, and I just might have a suggestion or two to offer.

Cheers

Tommy


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## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

Great new covers, and Tommy, don't be a stranger. You sound like you have much to offer in experience!


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## anicolle (Dec 13, 2014)

The new covers look fantastic. Best of luck!


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

The new covers look fantastic! Glad you had them done and have a plan. Hope it all works and kickstarts a fantastic year for you.

You might consider posting that before/after pic of covers on Big A's thread (Rocking Book Covers) to bump his thread for him. He's awesome to work with and such a nice guy. Kudos to him for doing this!


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## jloakley (Jan 20, 2013)

Hi Decon,

I have two novels out now. For now, I'm still in it, but I like the idea of being a hybrid author. I'm looking at non-fiction book going with a more traditional publisher. As my novels are also in book form, they are in libraries and on consignment in bookstores. I know that book clubs are reading them, in fact, I'll be visiting two this spring. My writing income is modest, but I do well with talks about my books. Their historical backgrounds has led to visits around my state that are well paid. I plan to get a third out this spring.


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

When is the last time you went over your blurbs?  The two books in your sig I clicked on didn't have them other than telling me the book is part of a bundle somewhere else, presumably at a better price.

The worst a good blurb can do is nothing.  A bad blurb or no blurb at all can ruin a books chances.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

L.L. Akers said:


> The new covers look fantastic! Glad you had them done and have a plan. Hope it all works and kickstarts a fantastic year for you.
> 
> You might consider posting that before/after pic of covers on Big A's thread (Rocking Book Covers) to bump his thread for him. He's awesome to work with and such a nice guy. Kudos to him for doing this!


Ahh you just made my day! What a thing to read in the morning!  Thanks a million!


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

RBC said:


> Ahh you just made my day! What a thing to read in the morning!  Thanks a million!


Is it morning? Day'um... I forgot to go to bed. Seems like I just wrote this an hour ago!


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

L.L. Akers said:


> Is it morning? Day'um... I forgot to go to bed. Seems like I just wrote this an hour ago!


Haha.. It was for me!


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

It's ironic really. I had Deadly Journey in my signature on a writers site until it was complete. At the time it was called Lethal Journey. I did a search on the title before publishing and that's when I first came across rocking book covers. He had already done a cover  for that title which knocked me out. (The one in his signature) Anyway I changed the name to what it is now.  I've been admiring his covers ever since. 

What astounded me was that I found 13 covers to match. I've been searching pre-mades for ages to freshen my covers, but I could never find anything to match. He was also helpful in branding the covers for my shorts so that they would be distinguishable from my full length works and translations.

Part of my plan is to regularly publish more shorts which have lower editing and cover costs. I can see a good number of his covers would suite stories I have in mind, so as I start a story, I'll buy the cover beforehand.

I'll continue with my full length works besides the shorts, but self-publishing those full length works will all be down to finances, so Intend to try the submissions route first for those.

I hear what everyone says about series and I've no doubt they work, but it's just not my style. I think I'd get bored and it would make writing more of a chore for me. I now have 4 full length projects, all different, but within the thriller genre that really excite me. That's what keeps me interested in writing.

Edited: Forgot to say, I've had a few borrows and sales of the shorts this morning, which is interesting seeing how they'd died a death.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Decon said:


> It's ironic really. I had Deadly Journey in my signature on a writers site until it was complete. At the time it was called Lethal Journey. I did a search on the title before publishing and that's when I first came across rocking book covers. He had already done a cover for that title which knocked me out. (The one in his signature) Anyway I changed the name to what it is now. I've been admiring his covers ever since.
> 
> What astounded me was that I found 13 covers to match. I've been searching pre-mades for ages to freshen my covers, but I could never find anything to match. He was also helpful in branding the covers for my shorts so that they would be distinguishable from my full length works and translations.
> 
> ...


Fascinating stuff!


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## velvetglove56 (Jan 27, 2015)

I know a woman who has been doing digital marketing campaigns for both fiction and nonfiction e-books for 2 years and has had amazing results. She won't take you on as a client unless she thinks she can help you achieve your goals. Her web-site is enchantedindiepress.com. If you send me your email address I'd be happy to share a flyer she sent me on different programs and pricing options she offers."


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

SBJones said:


> When is the last time you went over your blurbs? The two books in your sig I clicked on didn't have them other than telling me the book is part of a bundle somewhere else, presumably at a better price.
> 
> The worst a good blurb can do is nothing. A bad blurb or no blurb at all can ruin a books chances.


I am with you all the way on that. I went over my blurbs 2 days ago, but I'll be going through them again, although short stories are not the easiest to write blurbs for. It's all a question of priorities for now with constraints of time. I can't believe that I've wasted four years of not building an email list. It's just taken me 2 days to work out how to do even a basic Mailchimp sign-up form. Now I have to go through all the stories to re-format them by adding the link.

It's not brilliant but it's a start and I can edit later.  [URL=http://eepurl]http://eepurl.com/bcVZu9[/url] Any alternate suggestions on wording appreciated.

For those technically challenged like me, here is a good detailed tutorial on setting up sign-up forms and much more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KAnqy5YOeI


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

Decon said:


> I am with you all the way on that. I went over my blurbs 2 days ago, but I'll be going through them again, although short stories are not the easiest to write blurbs for. It's all a question of priorities for now with constraints of time. I can't believe that I've wasted four years of not building an email list. It's just taken me 2 days to work out how to do even a basic Mailchimp sign-up form. Now I have to go through all the stories to re-format them by adding the link.
> 
> It's not brilliant but it's a start and I can edit later.  [URL=http://eepurl]http://eepurl.com/bcVZu9[/url] Any alternate suggestions on wording appreciated.
> 
> ...


You have a typo in your text. "to to"

I use the same header image in my sign-up form that I use in my emails to subscribers so there's some connection. I'm not entirely sure what your image is conveying. One of them looks constipated. &#128516;


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Decon said:


> I am with you all the way on that. I went over my blurbs 2 days ago, but I'll be going through them again, although short stories are not the easiest to write blurbs for. It's all a question of priorities for now with constraints of time. I can't believe that I've wasted four years of not building an email list. It's just taken me 2 days to work out how to do even a basic Mailchimp sign-up form. Now I have to go through all the stories to re-format them by adding the link.
> 
> It's not brilliant but it's a start and I can edit later.  [URL=http://eepurl]http://eepurl.com/bcVZu9[/url] Any alternate suggestions on wording appreciated.
> 
> ...


Ditch asking for last name. No need for it and lowers conversions most likely. People don't want to enter too much information or take much time to do it.

Also, stress the Benefits in here, not just safety (just need one sentence about that). Tell them what they can expect, how it will entertain them, show good books, behind-the-scenes stuff etc. Newsletter is boring, be more detailed about what I'd get by joining it.

Remember, people are selfish (not in a bad way..).


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Ditch the text and simply say "get notified of new releases" or something. I have no idea what the current text is trying to say. It also appears to be written in five different fonts!

The image--bleh. It's stretched horizontally and looks terrible that way.


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## Kathryn Meyer Griffith (May 6, 2013)

I LOVE your new covers Decon!


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## Peter Spenser (Jan 26, 2012)

No! No! A thousand times, no!


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Declan, the new covers are a vast improvement! Very kick-ass!

Personally, I'm taking a break from writing. I've spent a good deal of my adult life making a living as a writer and the magic is gone for me. Honestly, I can take it or leave it. I've written three novels because I wanted to, because I had ideas I wanted to explore, and because I hoped to make enough money from them to make it justifiable to spend the time, more time, still more time, and some money to publish them.

The trend, though, has been down. I made the most money with only one book out. By the time my 2nd came out, the market was more saturated and I made less with 2 books than I had with only 1. I wrote a third book, and I make less from 3 than I made from 2 than I made from 1. The new one hasn't paid for its editing and cover(s), even though it's the best-reviewed of the bunch. (And reviews are getting harder to come by, too!)

[Clearly, for me the secret is to write _fewer _books, not more!  ]

But seriously, there's more to life than sitting at a keyboard, and I've done a helluva lot of sitting at a keyboard. If writing is going to _cost _me money rather than _make _it, well, I can spend money doing other stuff that's more entertaining and much, much, much less work. It's vaguely possible that I'll do something that gives me some physical exercise.

I'll retire in less than two years. At that time, maybe I'll get back into it. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying not getting up two hours early to write before work every morning and coming home without editing to do. I'm more focused on my paying job and trying to re-ignite the fun I used to find there, before I got distracted by the novel-writing bug.

And I'm thinking about what I _do_ want to write when I decide I want to write again.


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## Tyler Danann (Nov 1, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> I don't think you can make it in this business if you don't write serials or series ... if you're not going to do that, I would search high and low for a traditional publisher who can get you into bookstores, Target, Walmart, etc.


I have to agree with this, the pros on here are the ones with a chain of books that fill the sig.
The more books the more interest. It is often that simple. The first thing readers will often say (if they liked the book) is 'When is the next one coming out?'
My problem is I wrote my books when I was very green and fresh, yet had them set waaay after the first ones.

By the time I got to self-publishing Mountain Hold, and the side-story Novellette things had changed with Amazon etc. The future books are also holding me back a bit as my skill has improved from when I started writing in '04 - '11.


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