# What happened to good manners?



## Lyndl (Apr 2, 2010)

Recently, I've been to 2 Christenings and 3 Birthday Parties. At each of them there was a table set aside for the gifts but none of them were opened until after all the guests left. Adding insult to injury , of the five events above, only one recipient thanked people for their gifts... a generic thanks via her Facebook status !

I put a lot of thought into selecting gifts and I'm sure many others do too. This makes me feel as if I could just as easily have stuffed $50 in an envelope and dropped it on the table. Why did I even bother?

How difficult is it to send an email, a PM or even a note by mail saying "_Thanks for the *whatever it was* I really liked it. _" ? 
Much better than a generic "_Thanks everyone for your gifts_" on Facebook


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

Wow. I'm shy and hate to be the center of attention, but I still opened the gifts in front of everyone. And no thanks? More of an insult. But... you said recently, how recently? Last week? Last month? How long is permissible? Sadly though, I bet the generic facebook post is all you'll see. 

I have a co-worker who sent $100 to both his neice and nephew for Christmas a few years ago. He said he has yet to get a thank you. And they have yet to receive another gift from him. They are 13 and 15, old enough to know without being prodded. I'm not saying that's the best way to handle that kind of situation, but it is one way.

I am planning on teaching my son to send thank you's. I have sent them on his behalf but now that he is 4, he can start helping me with at least the wording for his holiday gifts. He has signed his name since he was 2.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

my SIL got married the other weekend and all her updates on plans for the wedding and reception she 'sent out' by putting them on facebook and expecting us to get them.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

This is a pet peeve of mine. Trying to drill into my niece and nephew that they need to be more appreciative of the things people do for them. And if I spend money somewhere, the cashier expects ME to thank them?! I don't think so.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Whenever I don't get a thank you from a cashier, I usually give them a "you're welcome" anyway.


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## Sandra Edwards (May 10, 2010)

It's really not that hard to behave with common courtesy. But unfortunately we don't see much of it anymore. A simple "thank you" when someone does something for you. A "you're welcome" in return. "Excuse (or pardon) me" when someone's standing in your way in the grocery store. All these things go a long way when it comes to interacting with others.

I'm just saying....

Sandy


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## Joyce DeBacco (Apr 24, 2010)

Common courtesy is lacking in other areas too. Try grocery shopping. People stop in the middle of the aisle with their carts while others are waiting behind to pass. You can say "excuse me" and sometimes they move. Especially irksome are those who stand in someone's way and talk on their phones. It's bad enough we have to be subjected to their conversations, but now we're supposed to wait until they finish to move on. 

Joyce


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## farrellclaire (Mar 5, 2010)

Maybe they didn't keep track of who sent them gifts?  I've received gifts for my children that weren't marked and I had no idea who sent them.

This thread makes me smile because general opinion where I'm living would be that opening presents in front of everyone is crass and rude.  So would a gift table for that matter.  Baby showers and the like are also frowned upon for the most part over here.  Off-topic, I just thought it was funny how differently we see things.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> my SIL got married the other weekend and all her updates on plans for the wedding and reception she 'sent out' by putting them on facebook and expecting us to get them.


I wouldn't have made it to the wedding!

I can understand not opening presents in front of all the guests, sometimes that can be embarassing for the receipent and the gift giver.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

kcmay said:


> This is a pet peeve of mine. Trying to drill into my niece and nephew that they need to be more appreciative of the things people do for them. And if I spend money somewhere, the cashier expects ME to thank them?! I don't think so.


I've never quite understood that. It's not like the money is going directly to the cashier. They're usually making min. wage, dealing with all sorts of crazy people all day long, on their feet. It's exhausting. I always thank them and if they are exhausted and don't immediately thank me after the transaction, I just tell them to have an awesome day and hope that I brightened up their day a little.

As for opening presents, I wouldn't mind if they didn't get opened in front of me or I didn't get a personal thank-you. After all, if I'm giving someone a present, I'm doing it to make them happy, not so I can get a thank-you and feel better about myself. If I didn't get any response about it, I'd be worried if they got it or not, so I might double-check to make sure on that. Also a lot of the times, when I give someone a gift, I get an immediate thank-you, which is more than enough for me. I hate when people give me gifts, because then I feel like I owe them something and I have to overly thank them for things I usually don't want or need. I'll always send out personal thank-yous, but I wish there weren't so many social rules tied into the process.


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## 4Katie (Jun 27, 2009)

My kids weren't allowed to use gifts until they had properly thanked the giver. It worked great unless the gift was an ugly sweater.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Jessica Billings said:


> I've never quite understood that. It's not like the money is going directly to the cashier. They're usually making min. wage, dealing with all sorts of crazy people all day long, on their feet. It's exhausting. I always thank them and if they are exhausted and don't immediately thank me after the transaction, I just tell them to have an awesome day and hope that I brightened up their day a little.


They have a job because of shoppers like me. Their employer is in business because of shoppers like me. Doesn't the company value my business enough to insist that employees say, "Thank you for shopping here?" If not, I could go shop down the street.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

kcmay said:


> They have a job because of shoppers like me. Their employer is in business because of shoppers like me. Doesn't the company value my business enough to insist that employees say, "Thank you for shopping here?" If not, I could go shop down the street.


They do, but doesn't the employee also deserve some courtesy? I also thank our waitstaff. Yes, they are doing what they are paid to do, but I also know that we might be the only folks who are polite to them all day.

I was a min. wage cashier and it sucked. The customers who also thanked me made my day, especially after spending 6 hours dealing with surly customers who wanted to argue over the price of everything. I actually had someone tell me the price of every item before I rang it up, wouldn't let me until she told me what it was supposed to be. I smiled inside when I got to tell her repeatedly that no, she was wrong, the item was cheaper!

Whatever the position, if the employee is polite, helpful and not just "phoning it in", I thank them for helping me. If they never make eye contact, speak in monotone, or worse, talk to their co-workers and never acknowledge me except for my total, then they don't get any response from me.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

kcmay said:


> They have a job because of shoppers like me. Their employer is in business because of shoppers like me. Doesn't the company value my business enough to insist that employees say, "Thank you for shopping here?" If not, I could go shop down the street.


That's not what I'm saying - it's nice of them to thank you if you've been polite and a good customer. What I don't get is why someone would refuse to thank THEM. I'm definitely not offended if they forget to thank me, but normally it's a mutual thank-you.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

I thank anybody who provides me a service. I think it's the polite thing to do.

The person I would like to slap this week is the one who left their shopping cart in the parking lot at Costco so it could roll into the front of my MINI.


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## farrellclaire (Mar 5, 2010)

I thank cashiers even if they're rude.  *shrugs*


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Jessica Billings said:


> That's not what I'm saying - it's nice of them to thank you if you've been polite and a good customer. What I don't get is why someone would refuse to thank THEM. I'm definitely not offended if they forget to thank me, but normally it's a mutual thank-you.


OH! I got you. If they thank me, I always thank them back.  And I always say hi and ask how they are. They don't have any excuse for being rude to _me_.


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## Steven L. Hawk (Jul 10, 2010)

I'd like to thank Lyndl for starting this thread.  It's been an interesting read.  

As for the people who don't move carts in the grocery store aisle, my wife does that ALL the time.  I'm constantly trying to get her to move over so others can get by -- even in places like the mall where she doesn't even have a cart.  However...  she's one of the most polite and considerate persons I know.  As soon as she notices what she's done, she immediately pipes up with a very pleasant, "Oh, I so sorry!" and then moves out of the way.  After 20 years of trying to get her to move over, I'm convinced that she's just not aware of how her personal space should interact with others.


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## julieannfelicity (Jun 28, 2010)

I feel the same way.  I went to my nephew's christening and all the gifts were on a table.  They must have misplaced my card, because the next thing I know there's a picture of the things I bought him on her Facebook with a generic, 'Thank you to whoever bought this'.  If they had just opened the gifts in front of us, and had misplaced the card, I could have quickly remedied it.  When I told her it was me.  The only comment was, 'oh. ok.'  No, thank you.  No card later of thanks.  Nada.  All the hard work I did trying to find the perfect gift, was responded to a generic thank you 'to whoever bought this' and and 'oh. ok.'

When I had my children I was adamant about them being taught manners.  My husband said I was a square, and that I shouldn't make them say please or thank you while at home.  My point was, you learn EVERYTHING at home!  But you bet your bottom no one ever remarks poorly about my children's manners.  They say please and thank you, and even excuse me.  I wouldn't have it any other way!


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## 4Katie (Jun 27, 2009)

farrellclaire said:


> I thank cashiers even if they're rude. *shrugs*


Sometimes I'm nicer when they're rude or appear to be unhappy. Who knows what's going on in their world, and a kind word can make all the difference.


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## Dawn McCullough White (Feb 24, 2010)

Lyndl said:


> Recently, I've been to 2 Christenings and 3 Birthday Parties. At each of them there was a table set aside for the gifts but none of them were opened until after all the guests left. Adding insult to injury , of the five events above, only one recipient thanked people for their gifts... a generic thanks via her Facebook status !
> 
> I put a lot of thought into selecting gifts and I'm sure many others do too. This makes me feel as if I could just as easily have stuffed $50 in an envelope and dropped it on the table. Why did I even bother?
> 
> ...


Hi there,

I can completely relate. I threw a bridal shower for my sister this spring and only ONE person RSVP'd. I mean, what the heck is up with that? It was being catered, I had no idea how much food to order, and I had rented out a nice location to hold the event, they needed to know how many people would be there in order to set up correctly. I had no idea how many favors to order... so I have a bag of unused favors lying around. In the end the bride herself had to ask people if they were attending and then get back to me.

It would have taken someone a moment of her time to call me. I don't bite. I thought that very rude, and apathetic and everyone did it!!

Dawn


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## Thumper (Feb 26, 2009)

pidgeon92 said:


> I thank anybody who provides me a service. I think it's the polite thing to do.


^^^ This ^^^


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## unknown2cherubim (Sep 10, 2010)

Steven L. Hawk said:


> I'd like to thank Lyndl for starting this thread. It's been an interesting read.
> 
> As for the people who don't move carts in the grocery store aisle, my wife does that ALL the time. I'm constantly trying to get her to move over so others can get by -- even in places like the mall where she doesn't even have a cart. However... she's one of the most polite and considerate persons I know. As soon as she notices what she's done, she immediately pipes up with a very pleasant, "Oh, I so sorry!" and then moves out of the way. After 20 years of trying to get her to move over, I'm convinced that she's just not aware of how her personal space should interact with others.


I've been on both sides of this. Sometimes I'm really distracted and don't notice somebody until Mr. u2c nudges me and sometimes I realize someone blocking the aisle is just concentrating, not seeing me waiting.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

pidgeon92 said:


> I thank anybody who provides me a service. I think it's the polite thing to do.


Exactly. While I agree with the original poster about people who don't acknowledge gifts - I do think that in general, manners starts at home. I don't expect it from others but I always offer it. I notice that if one person in a group consistently says please and thank you, others start doing it too. (Raging narcissists notwithstanding.)

Camille


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## Lyndl (Apr 2, 2010)

farrellclaire said:


> Maybe they didn't keep track of who sent them gifts? I've received gifts for my children that weren't marked and I had no idea who sent them.
> 
> This thread makes me smile because general opinion where I'm living would be that opening presents in front of everyone is crass and rude. So would a gift table for that matter. Baby showers and the like are also frowned upon for the most part over here. Off-topic, I just thought it was funny how differently we see things.


That's interesting...  Of course not everyone deliberately has a gift table. It's often set up by a 'helpful' guest or parent. But where I'm living it's crass and rude not to thank people for a gift, as I'm sure it is anywhere.

I don't have too much of a problem with not opening gifts, I do understand that some people may prefer to open them at their leisure. I suppose it saves pretending to like that hideous vase from Aunt Mabel. It's the lack of thanks that angers me. The last one was 4 weeks ago, that's ample time to offer some form of thank you.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm automatically polite, to the point I'm not sure I can take credit for it. I hear myself thanking servers for taking my order, every drink refill, and dropping off the check. My grandmother paid gentle fun of me for thanking her repeatedly as she helped me cook, and I told her she should just be happy that I was apparently raised right, and she was the one who did most of the raising.

I also worked retail, and various other dealing-with-people jobs, and so it instilled in me being nice to people in the service industry and not lingering in the aisles after close, and certainly not blaming people for things they can't control. Except I have to admit I was recently uncharacteristically rude and had no good excuse. 

We schlep my grandmother to the casino and she always gets a wheelchair. I have to give them my I.D. as collateral. So, I go upstairs to order a drink, she seemed in no big hurry to take my order, and then she CARDS me. I'm 42. I tell her this and explain where my I.D. is at and she insists on it. I stomp off then go downstairs to explain and borrow back my own I.D. I brought it back to her, she told me that there was no way I looked my age, and I chilled. However, I was in the wrong -- she really was just doing her job, and I would have done the same thing, and it was pretty much beneath me to give her a hard time for even a moment. Sure, I was angry that she ignored me for a couple minutes at the beginning, but that was a separate issue. 

So that's my confession.


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## akpak (Mar 5, 2009)

In my experience, it's only wedding gifts that aren't opened at the party. I'm sure it's something to do with the bride and groom having so little TIME during the wedding and reception. Everyone wants to get to the dancing, etc. That, and the amount spent on wedding gifts varies so so widely, I can see how it might be embarrassing for casual friends to feel "bad" if they think their gift didn't live up to the parents' gifts, etc.

In any event, I did keep track of who gave us what, but it took me about a month to actually get my thank you cards out. 

Here's how I think of it: If I opened the gift in the presence of the giver, no note later. I thanked them in person... Wedding gifts, christmas or birthday gifts from distant family, thank you note. A phone call could substitute.

Facebook? Tacky.

While we're discussing rude and oblivious behavior, this one floored me: At our local bead store, a woman was up at the register checking out. She actually asked the clerk to look up an item on the internet for her to see if she could get it cheaper elsewhere. The clerk acted with amazing class, she just told the woman the cash register wasn't hooked up to the internet. We all know we can get stuff online probably cheaper, but we don't expect our local businesses to help us find our internet deals! /facepalm


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## stormhawk (Apr 29, 2009)

I actually blew away a friend by sending an honest-to-goodness bread and butter note (written by hand, in pen, on a notecard) after an event at her house. 

Since then we've been to tea on a number of occasions, including at a teahouse that required that we dress properly, including gloves and a hat. We consulted Emily Post beforehand to find out what the heck you do with your gloves during the meal (turns out you place them on your lap beneath your napkin until the conclusion of service, and then put them back on).

I have also confused a major cable company's customer service staff by calling to compliment one of their installers for his courteousness in a parking lot. 

I work in a very customer-service oriented industry. The numbers of people that demand, rather than ask, for things is quite astounding. Some days my ability not to flip out on them is challenged.


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## unknown2cherubim (Sep 10, 2010)

stormhawk said:


> I actually blew away a friend by sending an honest-to-goodness bread and butter note (written by hand, in pen, on a notecard) after an event at her house.
> 
> Since then we've been to tea on a number of occasions, including at a teahouse that required that we dress properly, including gloves and a hat. We consulted Emily Post beforehand to find out what the heck you do with your gloves during the meal (turns out you place them on your lap beneath your napkin until the conclusion of service, and then put them back on).
> 
> ...


Sometime, I'd like to hear some of your stories. Might make us all behave better.


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## Joyce DeBacco (Apr 24, 2010)

Don't all the etiquette columns say that wedding gifts should never be brought to the wedding but sent beforehand to the bride's house? I haven't been to a wedding in years, and I know times change, but that's still the rule, isn't it?

But at birthday parties I think they should be opened, especially a kid's party. And thank you cards should always be sent regardless of the length of time. But, heck, people don't even R.S.V.P. anymore, which is even ruder, in my opinion.

Joyce


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> I'm automatically polite, to the point I'm not sure I can take credit for it. I hear myself thanking servers for taking my order, every drink refill, and dropping off the check.


My approach with all people is to respond in kind. When waiters/waitresses ask how I am, I always ask them back, and they are often surprised. (I went on a date with a guy once who was rude and snobbish to our server, and I was horribly embarrassed. I never went out with him again.) When people are polite to me, I'm polite back. I make eye contact with and greet people who are ringing me up or serving me food or what have you. I have an expectation that people employed in customer-facing roles will be polite, but I'm often disappointed.

My mom impressed upon me the need to write thank you cards, but she didn't do the same for my brother. I wonder if people don't teach their sons that sort of courtesy because they expect the sons' wives to perform those duties.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

As far as being polite to people in the service industry, I always try to be. It's partly my upbringing and therefore a natural tendency; but it's also calculated, to some degree. If you are nice to them, they are more likely to be nice to you. Even if I'm not in a particularly good mood, I try to say something nice and/or funny to the cashier at the grocery store, let the waiter know I appreciate him from the get-go, say thank-you to the nurse who checks me in before the doctor eventually gets around to seeing me, etc. If it makes them more pre-disposed to give me better service, it's a win. If not, I've not really lost anything by trying. Besides, it makes _me_ feel better, so it's still a win-win. (And if I'm on the phone with a CS type person and start finding myself getting angry, I always catch my breath and apologize, telling them I'm not mad at _them_, just the company's policies.)

As far as thank-you notes go, my parents made us write them as kids for any presents we received from relatives for Xmas or birthdays. I don't recall sending letters to friends, but then we didn't have big birthday parties when I was a kid, and I don't really remember receiving any presents from my friends. Back then it was hand-written letters. I don't know if it were now if my parents would have let us just send emails or not, but I'm pretty sure a catch-all Facebook posting would not have cut the mustard with them.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Personally, I'd prefer people say trees and postage and simply say at some point during the event "thanks for coming"  I'd rather be thought of as a person and a friend then just a gift-giver.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

scarlet said:


> Personally, I'd prefer people say trees and postage and simply say at some point during the event "thanks for coming" I'd rather be thought of as a person and a friend then just a gift-giver.


I keep thinking, even as a life-long bachelor, that I should have a wedding shower some day, just so I could get the gifts.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Dr. Phil says that if you are regularly rude to waitstaff at restaurants. . . . . .you've eaten a lot of spit . . .not your own, that is . . . .


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

mom133d said:


> I have a co-worker who sent $100 to both his neice and nephew for Christmas a few years ago. He said he has yet to get a thank you. And they have yet to receive another gift from him. They are 13 and 15, old enough to know without being prodded. I'm not saying that's the best way to handle that kind of situation, but it is one way.


Nope. I think it's perfect. There are consequences to actions, and that's the consequences of not expressing gratitude, IMO. The only down side is that the brats will probably never put two and two together and so remain rude...

I try to be polite to service people, too - been there, done that (tended bar, worked fast food, waited tables). Nice people make everyone's day nicer. That said, I had a waitress tell me once "Thank you for being nice to me." I swear, it made me want to cry.

Oh - I also thank my hubby for taking me out. "Thanks for taking me to dinner. I had a nice time." That's just good manners, doesn't have to change just because we're married


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

NogDog said:


> I keep thinking, even as a life-long bachelor, that I should have a wedding shower some day, just so I could get the gifts.


There was a Sex and The City in which Carrie went to a party -- b-day party for a child? -- and her shoes get stolen. Her -- of course -- very expensive shoes and the woman throwing the party tells her the cost to replace them is ridiculous and that Carrie is frivolous. Carrie starts counting all the baby showers and parties and weddings she's attended, all the gifts, and says she's marrying herself. Her friend who threw the original party finds the only thing that's on Carrie's registry are The Shoes.

Never Mind.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Cobbie said:


> Why not start a NogDog shower thread and we'll all give gifts. You could have a registry for us to choose gifts from. That would be fun. Don't forget to include Noggin. A virtual "Thank You" would suffice.


Sounds great to me, and Noggin says "*pant* *pant*".


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

Good topic!

Fairly recently I made a pretty nice gift for someone - and not only was there no "thank you" in return, but I didn't even know if they'd received it until I asked.  

Maybe I was just raised a certain way.  Heck, when my friends on facebook wish me a happy birthday I always write individual responses thanking them!

As far as cashiers: well, I've worked in retail.  I know what it's like being behind the counter, being treated like crap and insulted by so many people who think you should be throwing rose petals before them, and even occasionally having things thrown at you when they are displeased by things that I - as a clerk - have absolutely no control over.  No, the customer is not always right.  In fact, from my experience, the customer was wrong the majority of the time.  I always make a point of being friendly (though not super friendly - that can get annoying fast) to cashiers and always thank them - even if they don't thank me.  I've been there and I know what kind of day they've probably been having...every day.  (Which is not to say that the clerk is always right; some of my coworkers were not always...professional.)  Retail is a very complicated thing.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

DYB said:


> Retail is a very complicated thing.


I used to work at a place that sold music boxes. We had a ridiculously generous return policy. A guy's shelf collapsed and a water globe broke and so he decided to return it. He could actually do that under our policy. So, I look in this plastic grocery bag and inside is the water globe base with some jagged shards of glass still jutting up -- and there's blood. I asked him about it and he says he cut himself on it and so I reach for a wad of paper toweling to remove it. And, he becomes offended, asks me if I think he's diseased. I told him that I doubted he was, but I'd be an idiot to bet my life on it. It wasn't like I was curling my lip, just taking a reasonable precaution when it the presence of blood and broken glass.

Many people think people who work retail don't have lives outside of work and are robots. This is evidenced by the whole month of December, but especially Christmas Eve. The store would have extended hours, but people would even linger past those hours. If you lowered the gate, people would demand or cajole entrance. The cajolers always claimed they knew exactly what they wanted, but never did. And they'd want it all gift wrapped. An elderly man once slid under the lowering HEAVY electrically operated gate, like he was sliding into home plate, like that somehow meant the store wasn't closed, and I had a nightmarish vision of a lawsuit.

The really last minute Christmas Eve shoppers were usually men, angry that we were sold out of a lot of things, and would pick out the most random things. "Women like dolphins, right?" Employees would meanwhile be calling home to explain to their kids they wouldn't be home to tuck them in for Santa and to speak to frustrated spouses. "How about Phantom of The Opera? My wife would maybe like this musical mask thing, right? You know, because women like musicals! Yeah, I'll take it. And I'll take your phone number too."

One time, one of the staff passed out and all the customers were angry at the efforts to tend to her because it meant two less people ringing and wrapping. At another job, a (visibly) pregnant and diabetic girl was working alone, she passed out, and when she woke up items were missing.

Complicated is one word for it.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> I used to work at a place that sold music boxes. We had a ridiculously generous return policy. A guy's shelf collapsed and a water globe broke and so he decided to return it. He could actually do that under our policy. So, I look in this plastic grocery bag and inside is the water globe base with some jagged shards of glass still jutting up -- and there's blood. I asked him about it and he says he cut himself on it and so I reach for a wad of paper toweling to remove it. And, he becomes offended, asks me if I think he's diseased. I told him that I doubted he was, but I'd be an idiot to bet my life on it. It wasn't like I was curling my lip, just taking a reasonable precaution when it the presence of blood and broken glass.
> 
> Many people think people who work retail don't have lives outside of work and are robots. This is evidenced by the whole month of December, but especially Christmas Eve. The store would have extended hours, but people would even linger past those hours. If you lowered the gate, people would demand or cajole entrance. The cajolers always claimed they knew exactly what they wanted, but never did. And they'd want it all gift wrapped. An elderly man once slid under the lowering HEAVY electrically operated gate, like he was sliding into home plate, like that somehow meant the store wasn't closed, and I had a nightmarish vision of a lawsuit.
> 
> ...


I have many awful retail stories. And sadly most business do not protect their employees from verbal and physical abuse by customers.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I do income taxes at an office inside the Pentagon. . . . .one time we had a client who was NOT happy with his result or the price or something and was getting rather belligerent.  There were at least two of us trying to calm him but we were basically an office of only women.

There was one other client in the office at the time, a Marine.  He excused himself from his tax preparer, came over to the unruly client, and very nicely asked that he moderate his tone and language.  He wasn't a particularly big guy, and he spoke really softly, no foul language or anything else, but he totally had the whole 'get in your face and intimidate' thing going.

The guy took his papers and left and we never saw him again. 

We gave the Marine a discount on his tax prep.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

That's an awesome story, Ann.

And yeah, retail and food workers see some of the WORST behavior, IMO.  That's why the saying "The customer is always right" drives me up a friggin' wall.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

Arkali said:


> That's an awesome story, Ann.
> 
> And yeah, retail and food workers see some of the WORST behavior, IMO. That's why the saying "The customer is always right" drives me up a friggin' wall.


The Customer is Not Always Right. Love this site.


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## Shayne Parkinson (Mar 19, 2010)

We went to our godson's 18th birthday a while ago. Because I know that his mother taught him (and, perhaps even more importantly, modeled to him) good manners from very early on, I wasn't surprised to receive a "thank you" note from him. What _did_ surprise me was that it was a proper, hand-written, personalised letter. He's a credit to a good upbringing.

I always make an effort to be polite and friendly to retail staff, especially if they look weary and stressed. Only if someone is actively rude will I be cool and reserved in response.


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## Cindy416 (May 2, 2009)

I was brought up to be polite to everyone, and I always make it a point to treat people the way I'd like to be treated. It would never occur to me not to be polite to a clerk, cashier, waiter or waitress, etc. Because he or she is doing what the employer pays them to do. If the person who waits on me finds his/her day a bit brighter because I was nice, then that's wonderful.

As for gifts, I don't expect them to be opened at weddings, but I do at showers or when I give someone something personally. I think it's only polite to send a personal thank you for gifts. I don't want a thank you  note to make me feel better about myself, as someone suggested earlier. I put a lot of thought (and considerable money) into gifts, and I want to be sure that the recipients received them. I also think that people should not take others' gift-giving generosity for granted.


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## Alice Y. Yeh (Jul 14, 2010)

It seems like a lot of people here work / have worked in the service industry. Having been on both sides, I think you can hear some pretty interesting stories by talking to the overworked waitstaff be they your coworkers or your server for the evening. Just sayin'

The gift-opening thing may be cultural. I've heard of some situations where they don't open them in front of everyone else because some people can afford more expensive gifts than others, and the comparison makes it pretty clear who failed to keep up with the Joneses. In some cases, I _was_ that kid, and it would have been far less embarrassing had the opening of gifts been done once the guests were gone.

Whether the gifts were opened in front of the guests or not, I agree that a personalized "thank you" is important. If you're doing it via Facebook (tacky, I agree), at least message each person individually or something.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

Cindy416 said:


> As for gifts, I don't expect them to be opened at weddings, but I do at showers or when I give someone something personally. I think it's only polite to send a personal thank you for gifts. I don't want a thank you note to make me feel better about myself, as someone suggested earlier. I put a lot of thought (and considerable money) into gifts, and I want to be sure that the recipients received them. I also think that people should not take others' gift-giving generosity for granted.


If you just want to make sure the recipient received the gift, then would you not want a thank-you letter if it was opened in front of you and they clearly received it? I'm not against thank-you notes exactly (okay, maybe I am), but I think it is definitely a social nicety put into place so that the gift-giver can feel appreciated (and I would classify that as "feeling better about yourself"). It's not a bad thing at all (everyone wants to feel appreciated!), but I do not believe gift-giving is a selfless act when a thank-you note is demanded in return. I mentioned earlier that I do not like receiving gifts, ever. I don't like stuff, especially stuff I don't want. When people give me gifts after I've specifically asked for nothing, then social rules demand that I write them a (often hand-written, in the mail) thank-you note, it irritates me because then I feel indebted to them for no good reason. Of course, I always do send out notes because I don't want to offend anyone. That's why I have no expectations of receiving thank-you notes and when I do receive one, I shrug it off as unnecessary. I would never be insulted that I didn't receive one.

I should clarify:
I am totally not saying there's anything wrong with expecting a thank-you note. I'm just voicing my own personal opinion on why I don't like the set-up and some reasons why maybe people don't always write them. To me, giving a gift is simply to please the other person and to expect a thank-you note in return is simply an act that makes _me_ feel better and has nothing to do with the other person's happiness with it. Most of us have been raised in houses that stress the importance of making the gift-giver feel appreciated for giving the gift, but I imagine there are a lot of people who did not have that stressed on them when they were kids. It doesn't feel natural to me to send out notes to everyone, but it's been engrained into me that that's something they expect. When someone does something nice for me, I simply say thank-you to their face.


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## Lyndl (Apr 2, 2010)

> When someone does something nice for me, I simply say thank-you to their face


Even a quick thanks as we were leaving would have been appreciated. Along the lines of "_Thanks for coming, and thank you for the gift_"

One of the Christenings I attended was for two children so that meant two gifts. I put a lot of time and effort into choosing them. I have no idea if anyone liked them, or even if they've been opened yet.

My reason for thanking someone for a gift is not because I like it, but because I appreciate they cared enough to bother. It doesn't matter if it's opened or not, it's just good manners.


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## HappyGuy (Nov 3, 2008)

I was raised to open doors for women, offer seats to them anywhere, etc., etc. If that offends you - too bad. I'm 60 years old and doubt I'll change before I die. I thank everyone for everything. Being polite is one of the few things that doesn't cost anything, so I give it away as much as possible. I especially enjoy being extra polite to those who are rude to me. To paraphrase Proverbs, Be polite to the rude and heap burning coals onto their lap.

My pet peeve, in the manners arena, is men who insist on wearing their hat at the table. Bad enough they wear it indoors, but at the table? Pul-eeze!


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## Cindy416 (May 2, 2009)

HappyGuy said:


> I was raised to open doors for women, offer seats to them anywhere, etc., etc. If that offends you - too bad. I'm 60 years old and doubt I'll change before I die. I thank everyone for everything. Being polite is one of the few things that doesn't cost anything, so I give it away as much as possible. I especially enjoy being extra polite to those who are rude to me. To paraphrase Proverbs, Be polite to the rude and heap burning coals onto their lap.
> 
> My pet peeve, in the manners arena, is men who insist on wearing their hat at the table. Bad enough they wear it indoors, but at the table? Pul-eeze!


You and I are the same age, and I would guess that we were raised the same way. I would let you open a door for me anytime, but would hold it open for you were I ahead of you. I'm with you on the hat issue, but I live in rural Missouri, where many of the men farm, and where they leave their hats on for two main reasons, to my way of thinking. The first is that they have horrible-looking "hat hair" (or not much hair and they're trying to hide the fact). The second is that they would probably forget their hats if they removed them. . (My husband of 36 years is a farmer, and I've had to learn to live with the hat issue. His manners in all other respects are very good....for a man.  )


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

HappyGuy said:


> My pet peeve, in the manners arena, is men who insist on wearing their hat at the table. Bad enough they wear it indoors, but at the table? Pul-eeze!


I don't know anyone who takes their hat off at the table/inside here - why is that a custom? Is it totally invented, or is there a physical reason for it? The only thing I can think of is that maybe it would hide their eyes, so you couldn't make eye contact. I tried googling it, but all I could find was "because it's good manners" and because it's been done for hundreds of years. Why is it fine for me to wear a headband at the table, but a man can't wear a hat? Or would a headband be rude too? Totally curious here.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

HappyGuy said:


> I was raised to open doors for women, offer seats to them anywhere, etc., etc. If that offends you - too bad. I'm 60 years old and doubt I'll change before I die.


I'm not sure it remains good manners if you persist in doing something that you know offends the other person.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

Jessica Billings said:


> I don't know anyone who takes their hat off at the table/inside here - why is that a custom? Is it totally invented, or is there a physical reason for it? The only thing I can think of is that maybe it would hide their eyes, so you couldn't make eye contact. I tried googling it, but all I could find was "because it's good manners" and because it's been done for hundreds of years. Why is it fine for me to wear a headband at the table, but a man can't wear a hat? Or would a headband be rude too? Totally curious here.


I googled "Why does a man have to remove his hat indoors?" and got several results. I thought this site had several likely, or at least, believable answers...http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_men_have_to_take_their_hats_off



> The whole thing behind the the men taking off hats is because back when men wore top hats. In the late 18th to 19th century some men would hide pistols in them, as a sign of an honest man they would take off their hats in the house of another. Then later along the road lost its meaning and people then blindly followed what then became american tradition and continued to take off their hats inside the house, as it became a sign of respect.





> A hat is considered outside apparel and should be removed when you enter a building (with the possible exception of a store). Wouldn't you think it strange if someone came to your house in the winter and left their gloves on?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

The taking off of a hat, for a man, goes back, I believe to medieval times. . . .kind of like the salute evolved from the knight raising his visor. . . .if he was sitting down to eat, he had to take the helmet -- really all of his armor -- off completely.  Women had elaborate headdresses that would have been too difficult to remove.

In the Navy, it is Very Bad Form to not remove your headgear (your 'cover') when you enter a building. . . .or to fail to replace it when you leave.  You are to keep your head covered at all times. . .but inside you don't need two covers.  If you fail to take your cover off when entering a bar -- and this would include baseball caps and the like -- if the barkeep rings the bell, you get to buy a round.  The rules are the same for male and female.  Other services are not quite so rigorous about headgear rules, but they still routinely put them on when the go out and remove them when they go in. . .and if someone forgets he/she is either reminded or dressed down depending on whether it's a buddy or superior officer who notices.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

mom133d said:


> I googled "Why does a man have to remove his hat indoors?" and got several results. I thought this site had several likely, or at least, believable answers...http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_men_have_to_take_their_hats_off


Thanks. I read that and while I don't agree a hat is considered outdoor-wear (if I wear a hat, it's to keep my hair in place, indoor or out), that does seem the most likely. Usually if I take off a piece of clothing when I come indoors, it's because it's cumbersome or making me too warm. I wouldn't say a hat really does either of those, but the concept makes sense. I don't think it's necessary to get angry at someone for wearing a hat indoors when the reason for _not_ doing so is so vague. If someone wasn't ever told about the rule, they probably wouldn't ever think it was disrespectful. One of the reasons I don't like all the "good manners" rules is because they don't always make logical sense and people get offended for things that other people may not see. They're not self-explanatory. I do my best to follow all the rules, but I wouldn't be offended or force others to follow them as well. I think my #1 good manners rule is to not enforce my idea of manners on others because they might have been taught something completely different than me.


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## Cindy416 (May 2, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> If you fail to take your cover off when entering a bar -- and this would include baseball caps and the like -- if the barkeep rings the bell, you get to buy a round.


I bet THAT would make my husband take off his hat (especially if the bar were crowded). Not saying he's cheap, but he's too careful with his money to buy lots of people drinks.  (He doesn't wear a hat when he isn't working, btw, but he works a lot, so he's often wearing one.)


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## Talia Jager (Sep 22, 2010)

I have noticed changes in the way birthday parties are in the past couple of years. Party places used to set aside a time to open birthday presents, but the last few times we've had a party out, the party places no longer do this. I don't mind one way or the other if the gifts get opened in front of me. However, I think not saying/sending a thank you is very rude. My girls always write out thank you cards and will continue to do so. Also, if any of them are wearing a hat, I do make them take it off at the table.


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

farrellclaire said:


> This thread makes me smile because general opinion where I'm living would be that opening presents in front of everyone is crass and rude. So would a gift table for that matter. Baby showers and the like are also frowned upon for the most part over here. Off-topic, I just thought it was funny how differently we see things.


Interesting how regional/national customs can be. Around here (Midwest), people open gifts at birthday parties and baby and bridal showers, but never at weddings or graduation parties.

My 18 year old daughter sent out handwritten thank-you's for all her graduation gifts --- and I didn't even tell her to.


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## Thumper (Feb 26, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> I'm not sure it remains good manners if you persist in doing something that you know offends the other person.


How is he supposed to know opening that door or offering that seat will be seen as offensive until he does it...? He has to try to know, I think.

I dunno...I think anyone that gets bent over a gesture of kindness has deeper issues than taking offense where none is intended...


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

Thumper said:


> How is he supposed to know opening that door or offering that seat will be seen as offensive until he does it...? He has to try to know, I think.
> 
> I dunno...I think anyone that gets bent over a gesture of kindness has deeper issues than taking offense where none is intended...


I think it was more of the tone suggested - that even if he knew it offended someone, he will do it anyway and it's too bad for them. I apologize if that's not how it was meant, but that's how it sounded to me as well.


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## HappyGuy (Nov 3, 2008)

If I open the door or offer a seat to someone, and they're obviously offended, I apologize (good manners) and try to remember not to do it again for them. Someone doesn't take their hat off at the table, I don't get offended (what a waste of time), I keep my remarks to myself, but i still think it's rather uncouth and rather rude.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Thumper said:


> How is he supposed to know opening that door or offering that seat will be seen as offensive until he does it...? He has to try to know, I think.
> 
> I dunno...I think anyone that gets bent over a gesture of kindness has deeper issues than taking offense where none is intended...


Yes, he has to try in order to know, and I personally like when people hold open the door, but the comment is that he doesn't care if it offends the person. Meaning, to my eyes, if he saw that woman again, he'd behave the same way, and she needs to just get over it. That would cease to me to be good manners, if the purpose of good manners is to pay a kindness or respect the other person, and becomes more about him.

Good manners compels me to say that he might not have meant any such thing, but it reads that way.


> I was raised to open doors for women, offer seats to them anywhere, etc., etc. If that offends you - too bad. I'm 60 years old and doubt I'll change before I die.


I doubt this behavior would offend a mere observer anyhow and so the only person likely to be bothered is the recipient of the gesture. I also think that people ought to accept brief encounters in the spirit meant, which means that if someone is courteous you thank them even if you prefer to stand or open your own doors. However, if the person expresses discomfort, that's that, and "I'm too old to change" means that there's no remaining courtesy in continuing the behavior.

Again, could be a misreading, and I'm just going to assume Happy Guy is just a Happy Guy. 



HappyGuy said:


> If I open the door or offer a seat to someone, and they're obviously offended, I apologize (good manners) and try to remember not to do it again for them. Someone doesn't take their hat off at the table, I don't get offended (what a waste of time), I keep my remarks to myself, but i still think it's rather uncouth and rather rude.


Well, there you go! I don't understand the original comment then which says it's too bad if they're offended though, but believe that this newest thing is what you meant.

You know, there are medical reasons, results, why someone might prefer to wear a hat indoors. That might not be anywhere near the majority of the time, but I wouldn't assume uncouth nor rude. I also, as discussed by others above, don't understand why it's rude. Other than tradition, what's the purpose?


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> ...
> You know, there are medical reasons, results, why someone might prefer to wear a hat indoors. That might not be anywhere near the majority of the time, but I wouldn't assume uncouth nor rude. I also, as discussed by others above, don't understand why it's rude. Other than tradition, what's the purpose?


It could also be a religious thing in some cases. 

I've seen statements that at least in part the tradition came from knights removing their helmets when in the presence of a superior or even other knights in order to show respect and that they do not anticipate any need to wear them. I've also seen some stranger "reasons", but odds are it's several things coming together -- not all necessarily logical -- to create a tradition. It could be as simple as an indication that you are there to enjoy your host's hospitality, not getting ready to exit the house at the first opportunity, just as you would remove your overcoat and gloves, which were only needed to protect you from the outdoors environment. Personally, I've never liked wearing hats, so I don't need a reason to take one off if I'm wearing one, such as coming inside on a winter day and taking off my winter hat ASAP.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

Well, you know why the custom of shaking hands exists, yes?  Actually, it used to be that men would clasp each other's wrists upon greeting - to make sure there was no dagger hidden there.

About giving up seats: recently a female friend of mine was offered a seat on the subway by a kindly gentleman who said that in "her condition" she shouldn't be standing.  He meant well.  But she was not pregnant.  And she was not amused.


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## caracara (May 23, 2010)

I think the expectancy has changed.  Mailing a letter to a friend is not very common anymore.  I don't expect Thank You notes from my friends, and would feel odd giving them any.  With aunts uncles family friends (AKA Older People) I try to send them.  Generic facebook comment would bother me, why say anything at that point?  This is coming from a teenager.

As for interactions with people, I say please and thank you and excuse me and such.  Maybe it's the Southern hospitality thing.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Jessica - you sound similar to me in the 'but does it actually make SENSE?' theories of politeness and traditional behaviour. 

Re: men opening doors for women, and the like - as a rabid feminist, I don't consider it rude when a man opens a door for me, allows me to walk through a doorway first, or offers his seat. I can appreciate a politeness offered just because. However, it bugs me if he INSISTS on my taking his seat, will not allow me to open a door for him on occasion, or will not offer his seat to a man on crutches, but will to an able-bodied woman. 

Surely treating everyone with consideration - and as fellow human beings - is the important aspect of politeness.


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## HappyGuy (Nov 3, 2008)

MichelleR said:


> You know, there are medical reasons, results, why someone might prefer to wear a hat indoors. That might not be anywhere near the majority of the time, but I wouldn't assume uncouth nor rude. I also, as discussed by others above, don't understand why it's rude. Other than tradition, what's the purpose?


Today's norms may have changed. When I was growing up men still wore hats everywhere; that's just the way it was. And it was considered rude to not remove your hat indoors (by the way, all military branches require headgear to be removed indoors, unless you are under arms). Just sayin' that's the way I was brought up. And at 60, I don't expect (for better or worse) I'll change. Personally, my philosophy for getting along comes from the Bible, Romans 12:18, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."


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## austenfiend (Nov 17, 2009)

I was in a store the other day and I said good morning and asked the salesperson how her day was going.  She literally stopped what she was doing for about 10 seconds, did a double take and then said to me, "Thank you so much for asking me that.  I hardly ever get asked how I'm doing."  

With store/restaurant employees, I always try to make a point to read their nametag so I can say their name when I talk to them.  The other day my son called a store employee by name and I asked him if he knew her.  "No Mom, I read her nametag!"

As for thank you notes - Facebook? Tacky.  I'm from the era that believes that thank you notes are important.  If someone has taken the time to do something for me or give me something, the least I can do is send them an acknowledgment of my appreciation.  Even the random "care packages" that we get from my MIL - truly bizarre conglomeration of things that she sends, but I appreciate the fact that she was thinking of us.


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## monkeyluis (Oct 17, 2010)

When we had our wedding and baby showers we wrote down everything we got and from whom.  We then hand wrote out thank you cards to everyone and sent them out.  That's the way you do it.

Out in shopping land, I always say thank you and have a good day to cashiers, waiters, etc.  Their jobs suck.  So thanks and have a good one is not so hard to do.  If they're a PITA or in a bad mood I generally don't say anything.


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## vikingwarrior22 (May 25, 2009)

being an "ol" man I still hold doors open for women...and over the past few years it has gone from about 20% to well over 60% of young women that I hold open the door for them do not say thank you or thanks its as if I might say something to them, so being the "old" man I am I say outloud "your welcome" sometimes I get a thank you but mostly dirty looks I deserve it I suppose... the older _ladies_ almost always say thank you ...


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

vikingwarrior22 said:


> being an "ol" man I still hold doors open for women...and over the past few years it has gone from about 20% to well over 60% of young women that I hold open the door for them do not say thank you or thanks its as if I might say something to them, so being the "old" man I am I say outloud "your welcome" sometimes I get a thank you but mostly dirty looks I deserve it I suppose... the older _ladies_ almost always say thank you ...


Now see, I could turn it around and say that from my experience, older men and women are much more likely to get snarky and give a rude "you're welcome" when someone neglects to thank them for something, while most younger people won't even notice or mind that they weren't thanked. In my eyes, it's these younger people who have better manners, because they're simply holding open the door to be nice - not so they can be thanked for it. And although they usually do get a smile or a thanks, they wouldn't open a line of hostility if they don't. Of course this is only in my experience and there are many who break the rule, but I still assert that it's better manners to do something for someone without the expectation that they will get the feel-good thanks in return (and even if they do expect the thanks and don't receive it, it's still nicer to forgive and forget instead of making the other person feel bad).


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

One could argue that it is not a question of logic, whether or not it is required for a "feel-good" sensation, etc. Rather, one could argue that manners are a ritual of human civilization to encourage non-violent (or at least non-confrontational) relationships between people.

When two animals of a given species meet, they will typically go through some sort of ritual greeting if they are family/friends, essentially to reinforce that relationship (sniff each others' butts, rub jowls, chirp some birdsong, or whatever). When two humans meet, they tend to go through certain rituals, too, whether it be shaking hands, tipping their hats, giving a hug and/or kiss, etc. However, unlike most animals, our rituals vary widely from culture to culture and generation to generation.

If two unacquainted dogs encounter each other and one or both do not demonstrate certain non-aggressive behaviors, fur is likely to fly. Similarly, if two humans encounter each other and they do not demonstrate certain behaviors that meet the other's expectations, one or both parties may interpret that lack of expected social behavior as aggressive or dismissive behavior. Is it logical? Probably not. Is it potentially confusing due to the way cultures have mingled and societal changes have accelerated over the last couple centuries? I'm sure. If anything, I suspect manners and related societal interactions have become more challenging for everyone, meaning that perhaps we could all try a little harder to "play nicely with others," even if we do not necessarily find it all "logical."

Or not...after all, I was a music ed. major, not a psychology or sociology major.  [Are smileys the latest addition to the human race's societal rituals?]


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## Lyndl (Apr 2, 2010)

Having lived in a Northwest Mining town where the earth is literally red, it was the custom for people to remove shoes at the door. You could visit any house and see a pile of  assorted shoes by the front door.  No one would dream of tracking red dirt through a house.  It’s a b**** to clean.

In the city, I wouldn’t say I’d consider it rude not to take shoes off but I think it’s nice when people do it.  



Here's another one.. 
How about when you’re out shopping and someone bumps into you?  I always apologise if I collide with someone, even if it’s clearly their fault.  Most of the time there is no acknowledgement, not even a grunt.    If somebody does apologise to me, I am quick to say “It’s OK”    It’s not hard to do.    

The biggest culprits are the people who insist on walking so close behind me that I can almost hear them breathing. Then, if I happen to stop to look in a store window, they’re  sometimes caught unaware and walk into me.  IMO, this is their own fault but people rarely apologise for this one.


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## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Dr. Phil says that if you are regularly rude to waitstaff at restaurants. . . . . .you've eaten a lot of spit . . .not your own, that is . . . .


I've spent close to 20 years working full or part time in restaurants and never, not once, have I seen anyone deliberately mistreating a customer's order. The people I've worked with -- and there have been many of them -- have never even joked about doing this. The few times that a customer or a friend of the staff has brought up the subject, you can almost see the 'fur bristling' on the backs of the employees. They rightly feel that it is a slander to those of us who do our jobs with a certain amount of pride--not even necessarily a lot of pride, but just the basic pride of doing your job.

I've seen and heard of customers who act poorly, seen the anger on the faces of my co-workers and felt amazingly angry myself at things customers have said or done. Those things, we grouse about to each other and save up the best stories to tell in blowing-off-steam sessions. But we don't retaliate by mucking up the orders in any way, shape or form.

Those are merely my personal observations and I cannot account for anyone outside my co-workers, but I'd bet that this 'Dr Phil' (whoever he is) missed the mark with that one.


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## Cliff Ball (Apr 10, 2010)

Having worked in customer service for 17 or so years, at Target, a hotel, a convenience store, Albertsons, public library, the only place where I think I encountered people with good manners was at the convenience store I worked at which was on the poorer side of town. When we had someone do nothing but get lottery tickets for 20 minutes, nobody complained, they just stood in line and waited. The hotel was the absolute worse place I worked at. I was a hotel bellman, and no amount of being pleasant will overcome the rudeness and mean-ness of hotel guests, especially when they're guys who have to fly around the country a lot, and work out of their suitcases. Not that all of them are that way, but, the ones who were unpleasant stick out in my mind more.

Working at a public library, I encountered a mixture. What shocked me was when a child had better behaved manners than the adults or even their own parents. I had one guy who yelled at me because he had a huge fine, and he said that I worked for him, he paid my salary, and that because of that, I should waive the fine. I listened, didn't argue with him, and when he walked off still fuming, I just moved on to the next customer, and we all found it rather amusing.

I'm in my mid-30's and I open doors for women, and I get more of a shocked thank you from them because they're not expecting it. Heck, on a couple of dates I've been on, when I opened the car door for the woman, they were shocked, but liked that I did it, and then bragged about me to their friends that I was a total gentleman.

For those of you who live in the big cities where you have to drive on the interstates, don't you just hate it when people are sitting on your bumper for miles on end, while there's plenty of room for them to go around. You're going the speed limit, but, they want you to go faster (by like 15 miles an hour faster), so they'll sit on your tail.  What's up with that?


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Being a man of many experiences in life I can relate to almost all these posts personally in some way or another and at the risk of being ill-mannered, I would like to point out that when young people become offended or annoyed (especially young ladies/women/girls/gals/lassies/madams/ms.'s/etc.) when men open the door for them are simply living out the concept of "Entitlement", which is becoming more and more the norm these days.  These persons to whom I refer believe that the older generation "owes" them something/everything and at the same time feel that they owe nothing to anyone, not even a polite thank you, which costs nothing but is worth everything and should be looked upon as a 'feel good', 'win/win' Covey moment. He feels good because he opened the door for a lady and she said 'thank you' because she is not only young and female, but young and NICE in his eyes even though she might be the epitome of feminism on her way to a NOW rally.  I still open doors for people, not just females, but handicapped persons, persons carrying packages, persons in a hurry, persons without umbrellas, persons late for meetings, servicemen, doctors, teachers, so on and so forth out of respect, kindness or simply because I have more time than they do.  Sometimes I receive a smile, a grunt of thanks or dirty look.  It's a good gauge of character.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Your mention of umbrellas reminds me of walking across a parking lot while it's raining. People, nice and dry in their cars, will insist on making pedestrians wait for them rather than stopping (which I believe they should do by law) to let them cross. A little bit of kindness would be nice there.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

I believe that service personnel are there to "serve".
And that part of their job is to thank the customer for spending money there - or for just coming in to shop, for that matter.  A "Thank you for coming" has always been the norm.
Now when I have received polite and efficient service, I always respond "You're welcome and thanks for the good service".  Which they are paid to provide, but there is no cost to being nice and it makes everyone feel better.

But service personnel are not "entitled" to a thank you from me.  

Just sayin.....


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## Robert Tell Author (Aug 17, 2010)

What about courtesy on the road: drivers who tailgate, won't get in line and then rush ahead on the right trying to cut in up front before the road narrows, drive under the speed limit in the passing lane and over it in the right lane, cut you off and give you the finger as they do so, run the boombox base at top decibels with windows open at a stop light, jump out in from of you from a side street and then creep, etc., etc., etc? You can think of lots of other examples. Good manners on the highway are hard to find.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> I believe that service personnel are there to "serve".
> And that part of their job is to thank the customer for spending money there - or for just coming in to shop, for that matter. A "Thank you for coming" has always been the norm.
> Now when I have received polite and efficient service, I always respond "You're welcome and thanks for the good service". Which they are paid to provide, but there is no cost to being nice and it makes everyone feel better.
> 
> ...


People in the service industry are no more "entitled" to courtesy than, say, a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, or whatever -- all are fellow members of the human race and our society, and therefore _all_ are deserving of courtesy. My problem is with people (and I don't mean to be implying you would be one of them!!!) who think they are "entitled" to treat people in the service industry as dirt, treating them in a manner they would not treat those doctors, lawyers, and teachers -- who by your logic are getting paid much more (much, _much_ more in the first two cases) to do their jobs, so should by that logic be even _less_ entitled to courtesy?  In my book, everyone deserves courteous treatment from me regardless of their station in life or level of employment, unless and until they prove otherwise (and even then, I may still "kill them with kindness" if I think that may still be the best way to the desired result).

PS: Many studies I've seen have shown that a paycheck is one of the poorer motivators of good job performance, compared to various other forms of positive reinforcement, whether that be compliments from management, recognition from peers, etc.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

NogDog said:


> People in the service industry are no more "entitled" to courtesy than, say, a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, or whatever -- all are fellow members of the human race and our society, and therefore _all_ are deserving of courtesy. My problem is with people (and I don't mean to be implying you would be one of them!!!) who think they are "entitled" to treat people in the service industry as dirt, treating them in a manner they would not treat those doctors, lawyers, and teachers -- who by your logic are getting paid much more (much, _much_ more in the first two cases) to do their jobs, so should by that logic be even _less_ entitled to courtesy?  In my book, everyone deserves courteous treatment from me regardless of their station in life or level of employment, unless and until they prove otherwise (and even then, I may still "kill them with kindness" if I think that may still be the best way to the desired result).


Yeah see that is the problem with posts or emails - there is no body language or whatever that a face-to-face conversation can provide.

My points are:

1. I dislike "entitlements". One earns respect, etc. - maybe by just taking a breath. But one has earned the respect of others, not is entitled to respect. IMHO.

2. People in many capacities are indeed paid to carry out their jobs. In many other countries, wait personnel are insulted if you speak to them, even to pay them a compliment. If they were doing their job well you would not have noticed them. I was told to be quiet when living in England because I wanted to thank my waiter. Being a "professional" he was hurt that I intruded on his space. So it is a matter of culture. Here in the U.S. one can speak to service personnel or not, as one chooses.

3. There has been a break-down of home-training in politeness. It used to be that the following dialogue would be normal: Sneaze - "God Bless You", "Thank You", "You're welcome".
But parents appear to have stopped instructing their offspring that it is only common courtesy to respond when blessed. 
I do not think it is necessary for someone to say "God Bless You" or "Gesundheit" or whatever, but it would be nice. However if one is "blessed" it would be nice to say "thank you". I do understand that some people don't want to be "blessed". But that is why we are taught to respond to politeness with politeness - it is part of our culture.

4. Back to servers. Are you implying that the server has no need to thank the patron for being there to be served? And that instead the patron need to be grateful for any attention he may get?


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## leslieray (Mar 16, 2010)

To all the gentlemen out there, who hold the door open for anyone, I'd like to "thank you" for you kindness!

My current husband has been holding the door open for me and anyone coming in closely behind me for almost 10 years now, and I am still as grateful as well as taken by surprise by this act of genuine kindness! I believe you deserve to be appreciated for this courtesy no matter whom you are doing this for, young or old, male or female, it's just the right thing to do and say thank you.

Funny thing is I just sat through an hour long conversation with my oldest daughter, 21 and a college student. She said that she, as well as others hold doors open for fellow students and usually there is a thank you involved. She also ranted about the rude tailgating driving on ther interstate. She is cut from a different mold than a lot of the younger generation I suppose, that realizes respect is earned, not an expectation. Thank goodness, otherwise I might feel like a failure as a parent if she were walking around with that sense of "entitlement" so many young ones do now days!

Again, thank you gentlemen (and fellow ladies) , for holding doors open! It's a simple gesture that makes for a nicer day in my book!


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> ...
> 4. Back to servers. Are you implying that the server has no need to thank the patron for being there to be served? And that instead the patron need to be grateful for any attention he may get?


Not at all. Everyone has an "opportunity" to treat everyone else with courtesy, and when done "correctly" it is a two-way street. Doing so will, more often than not, smooth the way toward a better relationship in both directions. Choosing do decide that any particular category of people (whether by job description, gender, pay scale, ethnicity, or whatever) are somehow less deserving of courtesy than any other would be my issue. But then I am very anti-class, e.g. I will not bow to a member of royalty,* or at least avoid situations where not doing so would cause a problem.  In my experience back when I worked in various "service industry" type jobs, as well as observations since then, it is generally those who consider themselves to be "upper class" who are the most discourteous to those they consider to be "lower class" (and usually the worst tippers, even though they can best afford it). But now I'm really getting side-tracked.
___________
* After all, what is royalty other than being lucky enough to be descended from someone who at one point in history was the biggest, meanest, most blood-thirsty ******* in the area?


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## HappyGuy (Nov 3, 2008)

I've often chuckled to myself, wondering where the, "ladies first" idea came from. Did it maybe come from olden days when the first person through a door might get an arrow through the chest?


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HappyGuy said:


> I've often chuckled to myself, wondering where the, "ladies first" idea came from. Did it maybe come from olden days when the first person through a door might get an arrow through the chest?


My theory - with nothing but a smidge of historical knowledge to back it up - is that opening a door for a woman and letting her go through a door first originated with the 'huge skirt' fad. Bell skirts? If your dress's skirt is too wide to allow you to reach the doorknob, you need someone to open the door FOR you. And because the skirt is so wide, there's no chance of the gentleman being able to walk THROUGH the doorway with you as may have been customary before that. So he has to go first - and risk the door closing on your pretty dress - or wait till you've gone through.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

nomesque said:


> My theory - with nothing but a smidge of historical knowledge to back it up - is that opening a door for a woman and letting her go through a door first originated with the 'huge skirt' fad. Bell skirts? If your dress's skirt is too wide to allow you to reach the doorknob, you need someone to open the door FOR you. And because the skirt is so wide, there's no chance of the gentleman being able to walk THROUGH the doorway with you as may have been customary before that. So he has to go first - and risk the door closing on your pretty dress - or wait till you've gone through.


That made me giggle to imagine. I can't imagine wearing a skirt so huge I couldn't reach the doorknob! Ahhh, funny mental images now.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Jessica Billings said:


> That made me giggle to imagine. I can't imagine wearing a skirt so huge I couldn't reach the doorknob! Ahhh, funny mental images now.


Well, your other choice would be to tip up the skirt and... *gasp!!!* show your ankles!!!


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Jessica Billings said:


> That made me giggle to imagine. I can't imagine wearing a skirt so huge I couldn't reach the doorknob! Ahhh, funny mental images now.





nomesque said:


> Well, your other choice would be to tip up the skirt and... *gasp!!!* show your ankles!!!


Orr... tip the skirt and show a whole lot more than your ankles. *faints*


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