# Virtual dig, for people who like archaeology.



## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

I'm an archaeologist be training, specialising in British and European prehistory. But if you're an amateur or have a strong interest in a different place or time then you probably know a lot more about that than I do.

Anyway, happy to chat about anything archaeology related.

Controversial subjects such as did the Vikings really rape and pillage? or do we descend from a recent tribe coming out of Africa rather than Neanderthals? welcome .


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## Scheherazade (Apr 11, 2009)

I've been pretty curious about that cache of ancient Greek manuscripts they found a couple years ago, the ones that they say proved the mark of the beast was actually 616 instead of 666.  I'm more interested in the stuff they hadn't managed to translate yet... I seem to remember some lost plays by Aristophanes in the lot?  I can't find any articles except on the 616 now, but one would hope that two or three years later they'd have a bit done with it.  They said the find tripled our existing documents or something like that.


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## Linjeakel (Mar 17, 2010)

Ali Cooper said:


> ......... or do we descend from a recent tribe coming out of Africa rather than Neanderthals? welcome .


I am by no means an expert, but I understood that there were more than one branch of pre-humans (if that's the right term) developing side by side and ultimately only one survived - **** sapiens, with the Neanderthals amongst those dying out. So we share a common ancestor with Neanderthals, as we do with apes, but we are not actually directly descended from either of them.

Other more knowledgeable anthropologists may be able to shed more light on it.


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

re the Greeks. I'm afraid I don't have a clue about that but hopefully someone else will.

re the human ancestry. First thing to remember about archaeology is that there are no facts. There's simply the theory that seems to best fit the artefactual and other evidence at any given time. The mitochondrial Eve theory was based on a very small sample (around 130, I think) of black US women and DNA was extracted from their placentae after they'd given birth. Mathematical modeling was applied based on the estimated rate of mutation of this DNA (mitochondrial DNA is passed directly down the female line, it doesn't recombine) and this resulted in the probability of a common ancestor originating from Africa etc. However, there would have been many more ancestors whose DNA did not show up in this particular part of the genetic code.

But the DNA evidence fitted a theory by Chris Stringer who is a very respected and influential palaeontologist.

It's now looking likely that Neanderthals do have an input in our DNA though probably a very small part.


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

Has anyone done any archaeology as a volunteer?


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

As a kid, I remember my Dad took a hella lot of archaeology classes, I loved reading his textbooks. He would have graduated with a double major, but couldn't go on the required digs to finish off hte major because hw was working full-time and had mom, bro & me to support. He still reads archaeology books though.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Ali Cooper said:


> Has anyone done any archaeology as a volunteer?


I done a lot of digging in archaelogy books and dug a lot of archaelogy documentaries. I LOVE it. I am especially interested in the Celts and was pleased when they found the Celt burials in China. There is supposed to be a Celtic community living on one of the northernmost Japanese Islands who live in round houses and have caucasian features and speak a different dialect. I've been unable to find much about them, but the Japanese officials supposedly generally ignore them.

Another fascinating subject for me is Biblical Archaelogy and my favorite show is the "Naked Archaeologist". I love Egyptian pre-history as well, but I dislike Zawi Hawass immensely. He is absolutely theatrical and closed to any theories other than his own. IMHO, he is not a true scientist because he rejects other possibilities out of hand and ridicules them.

I can talk pre-history all day.


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## Roger E. Craig - novelist (Aug 28, 2010)

I take a keen interest in our ancestors - home sapiens and neanderthals. Over the last ten years I've visited the cave paintings at Lascaux in France and the Altamira caves in northern Spain. These caves are famous for their wall paintings which are estimated to be about 18,000 years old. When I visited them ,the original caves were closed to the public because the increase of humidity caused by tourists was destroying the paintings. However, both countires have constructed exact underground replicas of the caves and these are open to the public.

The region around the Lascaux caves on the Les Eyzies River is famous for its anthropological finds which in include the remains of _home sapiens_ and Neanderthals. This region in France, generally known as the Dordonge River region is one of the most beautiful places I've ever been to. No wonder our ancestors made their homes there. Don't believe it if you hear that the French people are unfriendly. They are talking about Parisians. Outside Paris you will meet the real French people and they are friendly. After all, how friendly are New York city people to visitors? Oops, I'm going to get an R of S from New Yorkers.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Ali Cooper said:


> Has anyone done any archaeology as a volunteer?


A coworker does that, and has tried to interest me. I'm fascinated by archeology, but prefer the more glamorous side of visiting touristy ruins and reading about it in depth, rather than the hard work that is essential for the discipline to go forward....


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

I absolutely adore archaeology.  I almost majored in archaeology at Uni but as I was caring for my mum at the time would have been unable to make the required digs so ended up an Egyptologist instead.  

Re Brendan - I actually corresponded briefly with Zawi Hawass while I was studying, my professor effected the introduction, and I totally agree with your comments.  While I'm certain that he's a very talented man in many areas he is utterly unable to conceive that any theory other than his own may be relevant or viable.  Furthermore when I applied to do some research at Cairo Uni and Museum for what would have been my Masters he denied me access because of the theory I was pursuing.  A very arrogant man.

Sadly, or perhaps happily, I ended up switching to studying ancient religions - a subject I find endlessly fascinating.

Cheers,
Trace


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

Roger, you're very lucky to have visited Lascaux. I think the replica has been up and running for 20 years or more. Caves (another pet subject!) are very fragile environments and I understand why they had to close the original to visitors - tho it would be nice if they could design some sort of transparent tunnel, like when you walk thru aquariums, so people could have the experience of walking thru the cave without damaging anything.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

traceya said:


> I absolutely adore archaeology. I almost majored in archaeology at Uni but as I was caring for my mum at the time would have been unable to make the required digs so ended up an Egyptologist instead.
> Sadly, or perhaps happily, I ended up switching to studying ancient religions - a subject I find endlessly fascinating.
> 
> Cheers,
> Trace


Many areas of study were unavailable to me when I was going to college because of my unfortunate geological location. The Universities didn't offer Egyptology, religious studies, etc. I think my life would have taken an entirely different direction had I been near enough to a "good" school, but that doesn't keep me from studying on my own, reading and theorizing in my own head.


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

I like prehistory because so much of it will always remain a mystery as it's before written records (apart from overlap where a culture has started writing and mentions one that hasn't, eg Romans writing about the Celts). We find out new tantalising snippets but I love the way so much will always be speculation.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

I use a lot of the Egyptian Book of the Dead in the later books in my series and have many references to obscure legends and tales about the pyramids and the Sphinx.  
It is my personal belief that the Sphinx is much older than the pyramids and was not built by the Egyptians, but rather found by them and perhaps transformed into something Egyptian.  I like a good mystery that leaves open the possibility of speculation and theories outside the box.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Brendan Carroll said:


> I use a lot of the Egyptian Book of the Dead in the later books in my series and have many references to obscure legends and tales about the pyramids and the Sphinx.
> *It is my personal belief that the Sphinx is much older than the pyramids and was not built by the Egyptians, but rather found by them and perhaps transformed into something Egyptian.* I like a good mystery that leaves open the possibility of speculation and theories outside the box.


Bingo Brendan! That was actually part of my theory, which Dr Hawass shot down in flames, I believe it to be more Babylonian and coupled with some info on the geological weathering of the Sphinx along with some rather obscure Babylonian texts I thought I was on the trail of something very interesting.

I still read about it all the time and will go to Egypt eventually, even if only as a tourist 

Cheers,
Trace

PS - There are some very good books out there about the weathering of the Sphinx and it's probable age by some very reputable authors but steer clear of Grahame Hancock, the guy's a quack


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Thanks, Miss Traceya! I did see Grahame Hancock's stuff, but it was totally unimpressive. I even watch Ol' Zawi just to see the mummies and the digs, but it's hard to stomach his


Spoiler



crap


 and the way he talks to the workers, associates and journalists who are making the documentary with him. He is definitely the 'star'.

I read a book or two about the weathering of the sphinx and saw one documentary made by the fellow that found the chambers below the statue. Of course, he was denied access to the chambers even by use of those little camerals that are on the ends of cables/wires. Geesh, I'm so technical today!  I also read another book that theorized that the Great Pyramid is the remnants of giant machine. I had always thought so just from looking at pictures of the Grand Gallery. It just looks like something is missing from there like a huge cog that would have rolled up the gallery with its cogs fitting in the grooves along the walls. Then of course, the so-called sarcophagus in the King's chamber is just... no. Just not a sarcophagus box. It just doesn't look right at all for a tomb. There was one documentary in which Zawi took a western archaelogist into the baffles above the King's chamber and showed him mason's marks on the stone blocks there that were supposedly made by the stone cutters that 'proved' the stones were quarrried by Egyptians. Do you know of this? Could these marks be forgeries? More later.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Actually Brendan there's some very new and reputable theories about the Great Pyramid, in fact all of them, starting to emerge that says it may have actually been designed to conduct electricity. The biggest puzzle re the pyramids has always been the lack of decoration. If you look at the tombs discovered in Abydos [the earliest known tombs for pharaoh's] as well as those in the Valley of the Kings they're all very heavily decorated while there's not a single trace of decoration anywhere inside the Giza pyramids.

Not being terribly scientifically minded myself I don't pretend to understand the theories terribly well but the gist of it, as I understand it, is that they drew power through water [i.e. the Nile] and transferred that as electricity. According to some physics scientists it could have generated enough electricity to power the entire city and probably far beyond as well due to the design.

Add that to the Baghdad batteries that were discovered and it makes you start to really think about exactly how much or how technologically advanced these civilizations really were


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

I was waiting for someone to mention Mr Hancock!

There's nothing wrong with having theories, and maybe sometimes, if someone is very trained in a subject, that can make them quite constrained. Just like sometimes (tho definitely not always) some classically trained musicians find it difficult to loosen up and improvise or jam.

The problem with Graham Hancock is he would get a theory, then look for evidence to support it and discount evidence which didn't. Of course, in a way he's very clever because he told people what they wanted to hear - this made him very rich, whereas most archaeologists are very poor. But it makes me very annoyed when people turn round to me and say archaeology's rubbish because of things he's said. Because whatever he's doing, it isn't archaeology.

Archaeology isn't so much what you dig up, it's the scientific and organised way in which you assess what you find.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

I am surprised that more of our authors have not chimed in on this thead.
I know we already have authors here in the thread.
But so many novels have their roots in pre-history that most authors have done SOME research on the subject to provide backfill for their yarns.

Neat stuff.
Sorry that I have next to nothing to add personally.
But I will be happy to cheer on the conversation.
I love topics like these.

Just sayin......


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

traceya said:


> Not being terribly scientifically minded myself I don't pretend to understand the theories terribly well but the gist of it, as I understand it, is that they drew power through water [i.e. the Nile] and transferred that as electricity. According to some physics scientists it could have generated enough electricity to power the entire city and probably far beyond as well due to the design.
> 
> Add that to the Baghdad batteries that were discovered and it makes you start to really think about exactly how much or how technologically advanced these civilizations really were


Very interesting, since the best conductor of electricity is indeed gold, is it not? (Not counting new superconductors probably unavailable to ancient peoples). The capstone was made of gold. I also know that certain esoteric societies go to the pyramid each year and have the Great Pyramid all to themselves in order to perform initiation ceremonies inside the King's Chamber. With the capstone in place and made of gold, the energy collected from the static electricity present in the atmosphere may have been concentrated and sent down to the King's Chamber. The so-called sarcophagus in the King's Chamber could have possibly contained a collector... a rechargeable battery? I don't know. It's just fun to think about it. Anyway, the Initiates claim that there is a great deal of cosmic power still available inside the King's Chamber if you open your mind to it correctly. I'd love to try it. But yes, no decorations, a good argument against the Pyramid having served as a tomb. The huge scale of the Gallery does not suggest a stairway made for transporting a king's body nor are the steps designed for human traffic at all. These things could not have been designed in such a precise manner for no reason.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Ali Cooper said:


> I was waiting for someone to mention Mr Hancock!
> 
> There's nothing wrong with having theories, and maybe sometimes, if someone is very trained in a subject, that can make them quite constrained. Just like sometimes (tho definitely not always) some classically trained musicians find it difficult to loosen up and improvise or jam.
> 
> ...


Absolutely true... I'm not knocking Hancock - well, maybe just a little but as an actual historian I find his lack of research deplorable. Surely as a scientist we should be able to look at ALL the available evidence, not just that which fits the most popular theories of the time. It's a bit like Von Danikan's [may have spelt that wrong] books - sure there's some very interesting and, as yet, unexplainable stuff out there but to completely disregard the possibility of ancient intelligence equal to or surpassing our own I think is completely unfair and biased. But I also cannot deny that he sold an awful lot of books.

RE: Brendan - there's also some new evidence coming to light that ancient civilizations, Egypt among them, actually DID have information and used superconducting materials like monatomic gold that we are only just now rediscovering. I saw a very interesting documentary on this subject which spoke primarily about the Ark of the Covenant mentioned in the Bible and lo and behold when a replica was made and superconducting gold used along with magnets it actually levitated. Certainly makes you think very hard about the level of sophistication of ancient civilizations.

I'm actually headed back to Uni next year to complete my Masters and would really love to make ancient technology the basis for my thesis - have to get Uni approval first so wish me luck


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## A. Rosaria (Sep 12, 2010)

About the lack of decorations in the pyramids mentioned, could it be they never finished decorating for whatever reason?

What is know about the Sumerians? Heard they the oldest known civilization.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Scalper said:


> About the lack of decorations in the pyramids mentioned, could it be they never finished decorating for whatever reason?
> 
> *What is know about the Sumerians? Heard they the oldest known civilization.*


Still having trouble with accurate translations of the texts they left behind but some of the artefacts found give one furiously to think. Of course, it must be remembered they're the oldest known civilization with writing - not necessarily the oldest people around


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Scalper said:


> About the lack of decorations in the pyramids mentioned, could it be they never finished decorating for whatever reason?


I'm not a trained archeologist, but I am an avid amateur Egyptology "fan". As I understand it, the reason for lack of decoration in the earliest pyramids and for more elaborate decorations later is because of changes in their theology and modifications of the Egyptian view of salvation over time, not because these were created by different civilizations.

In the Old Kingdom (the glory days of pyramid-building when all the well-known pyramids were built), the idea of life after death was focused on Pharaoh. He was the only one that could achieve the afterlife on his own, and everyone else could at best achieve eternal life "in the aura" (that's my words, not a technical term) of Pharaoh. When he entered the afterlife, at least some people, especially VIPs, could hope to also get a form of existence by being sucked along through Pharaoh. When the "big three" pyramids at Giza were built, I don't believe there were any "Book of the Dead" or "Pyramid Text" inscriptions at all, they weren't seen as needed.

Later in the Old Kingdom, after the large, well-known pyramids were built, and in the Middle Kingdom, when only [email protected] pyramids were built, the theology changed, and the predecessors to The Book of the Dead started showing up. The purpose of these texts was to act as travel guides or cheat sheets for the spirit of the possessor. They told him how to get through various perils, traps, and obstacles that the Egyptians believed had to be passed before the spirit could be judged and achieve salvation (they actually believed your spirit had several parts, but that is too complicated for me to write about without looking it up, so I'm leaving that out since this is over-long already).

The Egyptians started carving these guide texts in the burial chamber or other places near the body so that they would be handy for consultation when needed by the spirit. Originally these were just written texts with hieroglyphics, but over time they became more and more elaborate with the gorgeous illustrations we love. There are some of the later small pyramids that were unimpressive pyramids even when new (and were so shoddily built that they have collapsed now) that have the burial chamber completely covered on the inside with gorgeous hieroglyphics (no illustrations). To my knowledge, the illustrations didn't start till The New Kingdom, when pyramids had been abandoned as a methodology, and burials moved to chambers in The Valley of the Kings.

In addition to the changing view of the need for guidebooks, the Egyptians also gained a more democratic view of salvation over time. Their beliefs changed so that anyone could achieve salvation if they knew the right things to do and say. A major industry of the Egyptian equivalent of the salesmen at our funeral parlors grew up over time, marketing more elaborate and expensive aids that guaranteed the safety of the spirit. My personal view is that this contributed to the elaboration of the texts and illustrations, but to my knowledge that's not necessarily the official view.

In evaluating changes in how the Egyptians did things, don't forget that Egyptian civilization lasted a _LONG_ time. The famous pyramids at Giza were built a bit before 2500 BC. While the elaborate burial chambers such as the one for Tutankhamen were created for several centuries around 1300 BC. While the coffins with the elaborate and lifelike painted faces on them that are getting a lot of attention the past few years were created in the Roman era before and after 1 AD. These changes took place over a LONG period of time. The Egyptian society was much more rigid and conservative than we are in the 20th Century, and they didn't have the rapid technological change we see driving many changes in society, but they still did slowly change over centuries of time.

(end of long lecture-ish post!)

By the time of the


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

You make a very good point Hooded Claw - it's easy to forget sometimes just how long the Egyptian civilization lasted.  Change in any society is inevitable be it rapid changes or slow developments.  Perhaps the greatest thing that can be said for the ancient Egyptians was their skilful use of manpower - even looking at the **** systems they used to channel the annual Nile flooding speaks to enormous efforts of concentrated and co-operative populations.

Either way Egyptology is and will probably always be a fascinating topic for many people - the desert covers much and I wonder how much more there is to discover


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

Scalper said:


> About the lack of decorations in the pyramids mentioned, could it be they never finished decorating for whatever reason?
> 
> What is know about the Sumerians? Heard they the oldest known civilization.


I would emphasize the "known" when it comes to the Sumerians being the worlds oldest civilizations. Archeology is naturally biased towards those civilizations that worked in materials that survived the ages. The Egyptians used lots of stone, so we know lots about the Egyptians. The Sumerians used lots of clay, so we know less about the Sumerians but a whole lot more than we do about the civilizations that worked primarily in wood. We only know of the existence of the civilization that built Stonehenge due to their monuments, but little else since they had abundant wood as a building material for their houses, villages, etc.

I've been interested in the theory that there may have been a civilization living along the shores of the great shallow lake that became the Black Sea when the Mediterranean Sea broke through. The theory is that the people scattered from that disaster went in two directions. One group went southeast and became the civilizations along the Tigris and Euphrates and the other went into western Europe.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Roger E. Craig - novelist said:


> I take a keen interest in our ancestors - home sapiens and neanderthals. Over the last ten years I've visited the cave paintings at Lascaux in France and the Altamira caves in northern Spain. These caves are famous for their wall paintings which are estimated to be about 18,000 years old. When I visited them ,the original caves were closed to the public because the increase of humidity caused by tourists was destroying the paintings. However, both countires have constructed exact underground replicas of the caves and these are open to the public.


I was lucky enough to visit the real Altamira caves in Spain in 1975, while there as a student for the summer. Wonderful! I'm glad they are preserving them. Still a vivid memory.



> The region around the Lascaux caves on the Les Eyzies River is famous for its anthropological finds which in include the remains of _home sapiens_ and Neanderthals. This region in France, generally known as the Dordonge River region is one of the most beautiful places I've ever been to. No wonder our ancestors made their homes there. Don't believe it if you hear that the French people are unfriendly. They are talking about Parisians. Outside Paris you will meet the real French people and they are friendly. After all, how friendly are New York city people to visitors? Oops, I'm going to get an R of S from New Yorkers.


I agree, the French folk outside Paris that my husband and I met were very friendly and glad to talk to us Americans. In defense of New York, on our recent trip in July, we found New Yorkers very nice. Talked to many of 'em. Maybe we only found the nice ones. 

Betsy


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

traceya said:


> RE: Brendan - there's also some new evidence coming to light that ancient civilizations, Egypt among them, actually DID have information and used superconducting materials like monatomic gold that we are only just now rediscovering. I saw a very interesting documentary on this subject which spoke primarily about the Ark of the Covenant mentioned in the Bible and lo and behold when a replica was made and superconducting gold used along with magnets it actually levitated. Certainly makes you think very hard about the level of sophistication of ancient civilizations.


Monoatomic Gold: There are people that think drinking this is good for your health. Also, there was a structure found on top of the mountain where Moses' father-in-law lived in Midian, supposedly the same mountain where he saw the Burning Bush. There was a vat or pool in this structure that archaeologists labeled as a Temple. Moses' FIL was supposed to be a priest of the Midianites who "cared for" the Midianites there. In the vat or pool, the archaeologists found a white powdery substance that was said to be monoatomic gold. So Moses' FIL could have been a priest AND an alchemist.


Scalper said:


> About the lack of decorations in the pyramids mentioned, could it be they never finished decorating for whatever reason?
> 
> What is know about the Sumerians? Heard they the oldest known civilization.


 Looks like they never STARTED decorating it and there is no evidence that anyone was ever buried there. As for the Sumerians, yes, oldest civilization. They seemed to just come from nowhere when the two oldest cities known sprang into exixtence. Ur and Uruk. They had cuneiform writing, kept meticulous records, had a fantastic complex government set up and plumbing that ran through pipes buried under the streets replete with cleanout accesses and were made so that joints could be removed and replaced much like today's sewer system. Sumer is where the Hebrews migrated from to Egypt.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

The Hooded Claw said:


> Later in the Old Kingdom, after the large, well-known pyramids were built, *and in the Middle Kingdom, when only [email protected] pyramids were built*, the theology changed, and the predecessors to The Book of the Dead started showing up. The purpose of these texts was to act as travel guides or cheat sheets for the spirit of the possessor. They told him how to get through various perils, traps, and obstacles that the Egyptians believed had to be passed before the spirit could be judged and achieve salvation (they actually believed your spirit had several parts, but that is too complicated for me to write about without looking it up, so I'm leaving that out since this is over-long already).


Your theory runs along the same lines as mainstream Egyptology and is very good and acceptable to most, BUT what if the reason all those [email protected] pyramids were built after the Great Pyramids was simply because the Egyptians were trying to mimic the work of another civilization with greater engineering skills. It is a fact that the Sphinx was buried up to its neck in sand when one of the Pharoahs had a premonitional dream while sleeping in its shadow and said the Sphinx told him to excavate its body. So it was already there and was there long enough to be eroded by water. It hasn't rained in the Sahara in over 10,000 years plus it takes years and years to erode stone. That's a long, long time and well before the Old Kingdom, if I am not mistaken. Not saying you are wrong at all, just saying something different to think about.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

D. Nathan Hilliard said:


> I've been interested in the theory that there may have been a civilization living along the shores of the great shallow lake that became the Black Sea when the Mediterranean Sea broke through. The theory is that the people scattered from that disaster went in two directions. One group went southeast and became the civilizations along the Tigris and Euphrates and the other went into western Europe.


Yes, I have seen the documentaries on this. Seems there may have been a huge block of ice still blocking the straits that was left over from the Ice Ages. When it finally gave way, the Mediterranean Sea flowed into the valley all of a sudden and inundated the land around the lake. There are submerged beaches under the Black Sea and artifacts and ruins that seem to bear this out. The only question is whether it was ice or not blocking the Bosphorus Straits. Please forgive me if I misspell or get the names a little off. I can do that because I'm not a professional archaeologist.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

I can't remember the names of the authors but there's a really interesting book called 'The Vapour Canopy' - again it's filled with a lot of scientific stuff that I personally found hard to digest but the gist of their argument is that at one point in history [way, way back history] there was a vapour canopy that surrounded the planet - this canopy allowed for beings, of all types, to live longer, be bigger, stronger, taller and quite probably far more intelligent as it filtered out much more of the Sun's rays etc and a large part of their argument stemmed from the geological and marine biology of the Black Sea - i.e that it was once fresh water and became salt water. They examined the ruins of what are obviously cities now deep beneath the water.

**Small warning though they postulate that the evidence points to a large, maybe global flood and call it Noah's Flood - if that's not your thing you may find that a bit of a turn off but the bulk of the book is straight out science and well-researched archaeology.

Something to think about.


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

I admit, I know pretty much nothing about Egyptology. It's such a vast subject that if you study it you don't get time to look at the rest of archaeology!

However, I'd be interested to see if any organic remains, now underwater, spark new theories or fill in details like they have in northern Europe.


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## A. Rosaria (Sep 12, 2010)

Brendan Carroll said:


> Your theory runs along the same lines as mainstream Egyptology and is very good and acceptable to most, BUT what if the reason all those [email protected] pyramids were built after the Great Pyramids was simply because the Egyptians were trying to mimic the work of another civilization with greater engineering skills. It is a fact that the Sphinx was buried up to its neck in sand when one of the Pharoahs had a premonitional dream while sleeping in its shadow and said the Sphinx told him to excavate its body. So it was already there and was there long enough to be eroded by water. It hasn't rained in the Sahara in over 10,000 years plus it takes years and years to erode stone. That's a long, long time and well before the Old Kingdom, if I am not mistaken. Not saying you are wrong at all, just saying something different to think about.


That could be, sound probable.

Has it the Sphinx been examined to check if it's hollow or what more may yet be below it?

I might have had a sinful thought: Has someone suggested to cut the Sphinx in two, it could give a hint how it might be build, or am I talking crazy?


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Scalper said:


> *Has it the Sphinx been examined to check if it's hollow or what more may yet be below it?
> 
> I might have had a sinful thought: Has someone suggested to cut the Sphinx in two, it could give a hint how it might be build, or am I talking crazy?*


The chances of Zawi Hawass allowing anyone to do anything other than the most cursory examination of the Sphinx - unless it's him - are less than zero. We will have to wait for a more... open-minded director of antiquities in Egypt before we can do some real research there.



Ali Cooper said:


> I admit, I know pretty much nothing about Egyptology. It's such a vast subject that if you study it you don't get time to look at the rest of archaeology!
> 
> However, I'd be interested to see if any organic remains, now underwater, spark new theories or fill in details like they have in northern Europe.


Ali I've been very rude and not asked this question before - are you studying a particular civilization in your studies or archaeology in general? Here in Oz we had three branches of archaeological study - Egyptian, Mayan and what they called pre-history. I switched after a year to Egyptology but was fascinated by some of the civilizations uncovered pre-writing, particularly the many female statuettes that have been labelled as evidence of Earth Mother worship. I was fortunate to have a great professor who made the point, very clearly, that a statuette is just that - it may or may not have meant what WE think it meant.

I'm loving this thread BTW - in case you hadn't noticed 

Cheers,
Trace


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Scalper said:


> That could be, sound probable.
> 
> Has it the Sphinx been examined to check if it's hollow or what more may yet be below it?
> 
> I might have had a sinful thought: Has someone suggested to cut the Sphinx in two, it could give a hint how it might be build, or am I talking crazy?


Yep, you be talking crazy, but I love crazy talk. We can cut it open virtually with modern technology and yes, supposedly there are empty chambers or rather OPEN chambers below the sphinx as found by the methods that geologist search for oil/gas deposits, howevery like TraceyA says, no way Zawi Hawass is going to even allow cameras down there through tiny holes in the ground. 


traceya said:


> I can't remember the names of the authors but there's a really interesting book called 'The Vapour Canopy' - again it's filled with a lot of scientific stuff that I personally found hard to digest but the gist of their argument is that at one point in history [way, way back history] there was a vapour canopy that surrounded the planet - this canopy allowed for beings, of all types, to live longer, be bigger, stronger, taller and quite probably far more intelligent as it filtered out much more of the Sun's rays etc and a large part of their argument stemmed from the geological and marine biology of the Black Sea - i.e that it was once fresh water and became salt water. They examined the ruins of what are obviously cities now deep beneath the water.


I have read another theory that runs more to religion than even what the Vapour Canopy might suggest and that was that the vapor canopy was actually made of ice. It never rained and the mists or fogs rose up to water the earth like the Bible says happened in the Garden of Eden. In other words the land got water each night/day in form of fog. But the 'people' of that time never saw the stars or the moon or the sun. Then some unknown condition caused the ice to melt in the atmosphere and it rained down for the first time, hence the flood and for the first time rainbows were seen (the bow that God set in the firmament) and the blue sky and the stars. This is very religious of course, but only if you think along those lines. Otherwise it could very well explain some of the unbelievable stories such as Noah's ark and the rainbow, etcetera.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

They have had cameras in the chamber under the Sphinx, it actually was shown on a television special (on Fox, ick) that I saw.  (Not correct, see later post!) There was a modest-size chamber, a pool, and a statue that I'm 75% certain was a small sphinx (not a replica of the famous one, but more like some of the other much smaller sphinxes). I'm gonna poke around the internet and see what I can find.

What I found most interesting about that discovery is that Herodotus wrote in his book about a chamber under the sphinx with a pool in it. So he was probably down there, or at least was told about it!!!!


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

The Hooded Claw said:


> What I found most interesting about that discovery is that *Herodotus wrote in his book about a chamber under the sphinx with a pool in it. * So he was probably down there, or at least was told about it!!!!


Gotta love Herodotus - I think I re-read his stuff at least once a year and every single time I find something new that I'd missed before


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Someone was asking how the Sphinx was built....My understanding is that is carved from a natural stone outcropping that was already there.  So the Egyptians (or their predecessors according to the revisionists) just made the best of the situation by creating a carving.

The layer of stone that makes up the neck is of lower quality than the rest of the Sphinx, and is eroding away faster (you can see this in photos).  Eventually, if nothing is done, the head will fall off!


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/646628.stm

See the above news article. The chamber is actually underground between the Pyramid of Khafre and the Sphinx, so my memory wasn't quite correct. Apparently there is a pool, and a "tomb of Osiris" in it. Since I saw the tv special shortly after this announcement was made, I'm not too embarrassed about not getting quite right a tv special that I watched ten years ago!


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

Hi Tracey, I started this thread for anyone to talk about anything archaeological but it's interesting how people outside of Europe have a different perspective on it.

In UK, a lot of people study what's close to home and of course we have continuous changing archaeology for around the past 12000 years and sporadic interglacial evidence of humans before that. Finds of stone tools have pushed human occupation back to between half a million and a million years.

There're plenty of stone monuments (eg stone circles) and earthworks (eg barrows, hillforts) dating 2000 - 6000 years old all over Britain and altho they're concentrated in certain areas you generally don't have to travel more than about 20 miles to see one. So obviously these are fascinating.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Hi, TraceyA! I love this thread. It's the only posting place I know where we can just throw things around about archaeology without being in danger of being crushed by 'real' archaeologists demanding references and proof and such. I just love talking about everything old and mysterious.


Spoiler



Stonehenge is on the cover of one of my novels and plays a part in one of them.


 I love the circles and the henges and Skara Brae and Maeshowe. They are on my bucket list. I don't know if I'll make it over. I think I might just be so awestruck to see them in person, I might be unable to function properly. I know that the people who have these things around them and are able to see them frequently get used to them and lose a bit of the awe. Here in America, they are so far and few between, it's a shame. I was so excited when I saw the pictures of Skara Brae, you can ask my friends and family about it, they thought I was crazy. Does anyone know if they've found out any more about those little ball-like items that they found in Skara Brae?


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

Brendan, it's really expensive to get to Orkney even if you live in UK. Costs about the same as a holiday i Australia! But I have been to Newgrange in Ireland.

btw I am a 'real' archaeologist in that I have a masters in it (with distinction ) but throwing things around is fine so long as they're not delicate artefacts!!


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

You're so lucky Ali to be an actual archaeologist in the UK - one of my professors specialised in Roman Christian burials in the UK and the things she found were incredible.  Plus you've got Stonehenge, all the Druidic stuff, the Vikings - it must be so exciting.  Do you work seasonally with digs or is it an anytime kind of thing?


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

I don't work as an archaeologist but I do occasional semi-academic writing. There are very few jobs in archaeology and a great queue of well off or recently retired people offering to do them for free so there isn't much chance of earning a living at it. I did the MA partly so I could be a better informed amateur. My Peak District walks book (also an archaeology tutorial) is still being reprinted 10 years on and has sold around 5000 copies so I feel I'm doing my bit helping the subject along.

Just as an example of how much there is here, I drove to the beach (around 28 miles) for the afternoon yesterday and went past 2 Iron Age hillforts on the way.


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## OliviaD (Jul 21, 2009)

Ali Cooper said:


> Brendan, it's really expensive to get to Orkney even if you live in UK. Costs about the same as a holiday i Australia! But I have been to Newgrange in Ireland.
> 
> btw I am a 'real' archaeologist in that I have a masters in it (with distinction ) but throwing things around is fine so long as they're not delicate artefacts!!


I am glad you feel that way... I have never had the pleasure owning more than two artifacts and I keep them with great care. They are Indian clay vessels from the Mid West around Anasazi or Hopi not sure which because I inherited them. So what is the problem with going to Orkney? Is it the weather? I've never thought of it. I love archaelogy too, but am usually too intimidated to discuss it with REAL or Fake archaelologists. Love this thread! Wish I had more time to spend here.


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

Orkney generally involves 2 flights - not the sort you'd get cheap deals on and most travel is expensive in UK - then there'd be accommodation and getting about (it's several islands) once you're there. A package holiday for one person for a week or less, with some trips to archaeology sites, costs about the same as a flight to Australia from UK.

You would want to go mid summer if poss because it's far enough north there wouldn't be many hours daylight in winter.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Ali Cooper said:


> I don't work as an archaeologist but I do occasional *semi-academic writing.*


I totally get where you're coming from Ali - there's not much work in Oz for an Egyptologist or a non-ministerial religious expert. I write a few articles for magazines here in Oz but mostly I'm working on writing a book - I figured everyone else seems to be having their say why not me? As some of my religious theories tend toward the esoteric and vary widely from the mainstream I'll likely get tarred and feathered but what they hey.

I so love this thread though - can't thank you enough for starting it. It's wonderful to talk to like-minded people and not have to watch their eyes glaze over


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

I have been to Oz and seen some of the ancient rock shelter paintings in Kakadu Park. But I would really miss the way in UK there's something from a different culture round every corner.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

traceya said:


> As some of my religious theories tend toward the esoteric and vary widely from the mainstream I'll likely get tarred and feathered but what they hey.
> 
> I so love this thread though - can't thank you enough for starting it. It's wonderful to talk to like-minded people and not have to watch their eyes glaze over


I second this sentiment, Miss Tracey. They would probably burn me at the stake for my theories and ideas.  But it's good to shake up the status quo from time to time. I know that a lot of things I had theorized and believed in the past turned out to be the truth and I was so pleased to see them vindicated. However, I'm not associated with any academia in particular and have no means to express my ideas to the world other than through fictionalized works... gosh, I'm impressed with me!


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Brendan Carroll said:


> *I second this sentiment, Miss Tracey. They would probably burn me at the stake for my theories and ideas.*  But it's good to shake up the status quo from time to time. I know that a lot of things I had theorized and believed in the past turned out to be the truth and I was so pleased to see them vindicated. However, I'm not associated with any academia in particular and have no means to express my ideas to the world other than through fictionalized works... gosh, I'm impressed with me!


I could not agree with you more Brendan - why more scientists and academics can't think outside the square a little is beyond me.

True story here - in Oz if you want to do a Ph.D you have to present a paper outlining your theory and the relevant research - in other words do 3/4 of the work first. This goes before a panel who then decide whether or not the University will sponsor/accept your Ph.D. I did my time, put in all the research and put together my proposal - the essence of which is that mainstream Christianity does not in fact conform either to Biblical teaching or the example that Jesus set. 5 professors on the panel all said exactly the same thing - 'we can't fault your logic, your research or even your conclusions but NO ONE wants to hear that'. Ph.D denied.

This will make me look terribly wimpy but I actually cried when they said that - I couldn't believe they just shot me down because they thought it was too controversial - not untrue, just controversial. My mentor, the head of the Religious Studies department actually took me aside and said 'screw 'em, write it as a book and get it published anyway.' I'm taking his advice.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

traceya said:


> I could not agree with you more Brendan - why more scientists and academics can't think outside the square a little is beyond me.
> 
> True story here - in Oz if you want to do a Ph.D you have to present a paper outlining your theory and the relevant research - in other words do 3/4 of the work first. This goes before a panel who then decide whether or not the University will sponsor/accept your Ph.D. I did my time, put in all the research and put together my proposal - the essence of which is that mainstream Christianity does not in fact conform either to Biblical teaching or the example that Jesus set. 5 professors on the panel all said exactly the same thing - 'we can't fault your logic, your research or even your conclusions but NO ONE wants to hear that'. Ph.D denied.
> 
> This will make me look terribly wimpy but I actually cried when they said that - I couldn't believe they just shot me down because they thought it was too controversial - not untrue, just controversial. My mentor, the head of the Religious Studies department actually took me aside and said 'screw 'em, write it as a book and get it published anyway.' I'm taking his advice.


You and I seem to be in agreement on many things, Miss Tracey. That sounds exactly what I might have chosen as a Ph.D. thesis. Very interesting and oh, so, TRUE in my humble opinion. I have studied what Jesus supposedly said to his disciples and what ended up as doctrine and dogma have very little to do with His teachings, but the professors were right, people don't want to hear it. It is still dangerous to be a heretic in some circles and there a great number of people who would burn Templars at the stake even today. I am a professed heretic and people are aghast when I say so. My question to them is always 'did your read the Bible? Did you study it for yourself or did you use a guide, a teacher or some other religious doctrine as a basis for your investigation.' One scripture I like in particular is the one that says that God wrote the truth in the hearts of men and one only has to look inside one's own heart to know the truth and the truth will indeed set you free. I am not particularly religious, but I do believe that Science only proves that God exists. I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Bummer.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Had to share this with the thread - recently watched a fascinating documentary [now searching for the books] on the Kingston Rune Stone. You may have already heard of it but the short version is a tablet was found by a farmer in the US mid-west that was covered with Norse runes. At the time he was been called a fake etc but later geological studies have shown the stone to be genuine.... the kicker is the stone itself is dated 1374 and seems to be a land claim made by a group of Norsemen and unnamed others travelling to the New World. That by itself may or may not have been exceptionally interesting but there are records, stored at Rosslyn Chapel, which detail an expedition made by none other than Prince Henri St Clair although the outcome of the expedition seems to be in some doubt, possibly ended by plague.

This piqued my interest especially as I'm also a fan of family history and can trace my Scottish line back to the St Clair's - Prince Henri's daughter actually married Lord Drummond and the Drummond's are my main family branch.

The second thing that piqued my interest was certain carvings on the stone seem to indicate that the 'unnamed others' may well have been escaping Templars. Rosslyn Chapel is filled with an enormous amount of Templar iconography and there has always been the mystery of what happened to the Templars who weren't rounded up and executed and what happened to the infamous Templar treasure.

Much, much more research will obviously need to be done on this subject [guess what my summer research will be about?  ] but all in all I found it an incredible piece of previously unknown history. Even if they did start to branch off into some more highly speculative conclusions I can highly recommend the doco if you get the chance to see it.

Cheers,
Trace


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

Knights Templar? Phew! Thank goodness you didn't mention that book we don't mention . There's history of Templars all over UK including where I was born in the Midlands. Assuming many kept it secret I suspect they relocated to places including US and maybe still pursued some of their practices. But I'm not sure how big a deal it was in most cases. The Masonic tradition today is completely absurd and almost certainly more to do with backhanders in business than anything else. Men do like their secret societies.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Ali Cooper said:


> Knights Templar? Phew! Thank goodness you didn't mention that book we don't mention . There's history of Templars all over UK including where I was born in the Midlands. Assuming many kept it secret I suspect they relocated to places including US and maybe still pursued some of their practices. But I'm not sure how big a deal it was in most cases. The Masonic tradition today is completely absurd and almost certainly more to do with backhanders in business than anything else. Men do like their secret societies.


I've always been interested in the history of the Templars [not going into any wild tangents re the Masons here] because it all [their history I mean ] just seemed to happen so quickly - from a virtually nothing group to the most powerful group in Europe etc. But even more interesting to me was their iconography and symbolism. I've read some pretty out there books as to what that symbolism might mean and therefore what the Templars might have really believed but some of the more credible stuff I've read along with some research of my own has led me to some interesting conclusions and I'd adore to be able to investigate it more fully.

I don't believe for a second, sorry, in the legends of the Holy Grail - in any form. But I do wonder about the obvious duality in much of their imagery, their reverence for Mary of Magdala and the anecdotal evidence that some of their belief's were heretical etc. I've often wondered if they weren't perhaps following a more esoteric, and perhaps even closer to the truth, form of Christianity than was acceptable at the time.

Just some thoughts


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

Yes. Of course, for a long time almost anything was heretical. The Origin of Species would probably have got Darwin burned at the stake a couple of hundred years earlier. Religion has been very overused to subjugate the masses rather than to express faith.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

traceya said:


> I've always been interested in the history of the Templars [not going into any wild tangents re the Masons here] because it all [their history I mean ] just seemed to happen so quickly - from a virtually nothing group to the most powerful group in Europe etc. But even more interesting to me was their iconography and symbolism. I've read some pretty out there books as to what that symbolism might mean and therefore what the Templars might have really believed but some of the more credible stuff I've read along with some research of my own has led me to some interesting conclusions and I'd adore to be able to investigate it more fully.
> 
> I don't believe for a second, sorry, in the legends of the Holy Grail - in any form. But I do wonder about the obvious duality in much of their imagery, their reverence for Mary of Magdala and the anecdotal evidence that some of their belief's were heretical etc. I've often wondered if they weren't perhaps following a more esoteric, and perhaps even closer to the truth, form of Christianity than was acceptable at the time.
> 
> Just some thoughts


The Templars have long been a subject of interest for me since my main topic concerns them in my fiction, but I have done a lot of research (non-field of course) on both Templars and Masons and there are a vast number of similarities between the iconography of both organizations. Of course, the argument continues: Which came first, the Templars or the Masons? I have an entirely different viewpoint/idea since I have also studied Gnosticism, Coptic Christianity and Rosicrucianism. It is entirely possible that you are right in your speculations, though you did not say what your idea is exactly. It is my own belief and of course this deviates from science into religion which is always dangerous and as Miss Ali pointed out, probably heretical, though I've always called myself a heretic, that Jesus was attempting to further John, the Baptist's teachings and that John was more than likely the originator of much of the Christian faith. The Gnostics seemed to bear this out in many ways and were almost completely eradicated by the Church of Rome which follows the teachings of Simon Peter and Paul, the apostle who never really met Jesus or John, the Baptist. It is possible that the Templars were greatly influenced by the teachings of the Gnostics which they found while they were in the Holy Lands, thereby leading them to revere John rather than Jesus as the Christ. If there were secret scrolls hidden in the desert for 2000 years, is it not possible that the Templars may have found secret scrolls hidden below the Temple Mount in the Twelfth Century? It is all a matter of speculation and opinion and personal belief at this point. If ever we can find the tomb of Christian Rosencrantz, wake him up and ask him personally, who knows? Fun to think about and fictionalize in the meantime.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Archaeology Humor:


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Actually Brendan a lot of what you're saying makes a great deal of sense to me [not that we're spelling anything out specifically here - waaay to controversial] but in my blog White Horse I make the point that the three monotheistic religions are, in fact, incredibly similar - except when it comes to the person of Jesus. If I'm reading the texts correctly [both official and the officially heretical] John the Baptist was the first to speak of The Way. This would, naturally, make him a very important personage in the history of Christianity as John tried to tell the people of the day that their ways had deviated from the true words of the Most High. My next blog post, which should be up tonight or tomorrow, deals with that very issue.

As for the Templars I've always thought it highly probable that they saw the similarities between the faiths and realised that perhaps God is not confined to a single Church or Denomination and perhaps has more to do with a personal relationship. I also find it interesting [again not going to draw any specific conclusions here] that within Masonic ideology their tenants revolve around the belief in a single God yet their imagery is drawn from many different monotheistic faiths and their main claim is a unity of brotherhood?

Just a few thoughts but as I said I go into those in greater depth in my White Horse blog, which may, in time probably get me burned at the stake


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Or at the very least, dunked in a pond several times. I'm not sure where I actually address the subject of Unity


Spoiler



(in my novels)


, but it is the prevailing concept in both Masonry and the Templar ideal. (The Templars actually admitted women into the ranks in the early days and married Templars were required to wear black surcoats instead of white.) The Masons however, as products of their times declared the Truth and the Way and the Light much to brilliant for the fragile female psyche. Boy, were they ever deceived in that one point!  Women during the first period of Christianity, shortly after the Crucifixion and beheading of John, were allowed to preach and teach alongside the men until the Roman Church hi-jacked the system. Heresy!!  I'm doomed! Now we have had many modern leaders teaching and preaching Unity from one side of their mouth and war from the other. I'm afraid that as things currently stand in global politics, the world is not quite ready for Unity without a great deal of bloodshed. (Convert or die dogma.)* Warning: Politically Correct persons who are easily offended by Un-politically Correctness, DO NOT READ THE SPOILER!! *


Spoiler



I am enthusiastically awaiting the end of the Mayan calendar when cosmic vibrations zoom out of the galactic center and turn Achoomadenijabber into a sane man.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Brendan Carroll said:


> (The Templars actually admitted women into the ranks in the early days and married Templars were required to wear black surcoats instead of white.) The Masons however, as products of their times declared the Truth and the Way and the Light much to brilliant for the fragile female psyche. Boy, were they ever deceived in that one point!  Women during the first period of Christianity, shortly after the Crucifixion and beheading of John, were allowed to preach and teach alongside the men until the Roman Church hi-jacked the system. Heresy!!  I'm doomed!


A large part of the proposal I put forward for my Ph.D dealt with the, to me at least, obvious fact that Mary of Magdala was actually the first evangelizing Apostle. Not one of The Twelve, obviously, who formed the basis for the council, for lack of a better word, but one of those sent out to spread the Good News to ALL the world. If you read the canonized gospels and letters of the Apostles carefully you'll also find that Mary was only one of many female Apostles - at least according to the pre-requisites for being an Apostle.

It's the same argument for a married priesthood - every single one of the Twelve Apostle's were married, Paul on the other hand devoted himself to a constantly moving evangelism which would not have been conducive to having a wife - of course there's also a slight anti-marriage in his writings as he seems to feel it would detract from his mission.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

traceya said:


> It's the same argument for a married priesthood - every single one of the Twelve Apostle's were married, *Paul on the other hand d*evoted himself to a constantly moving evangelism which would not have been conducive to having a wife - of course there's also a slight anti-marriage in his writings as he seems to feel it would detract from his mission.


I did study Paul and read several theories about why he was completely against marriage. The reasons you listed are of course reasonable and most likely as true as anything else, but there were some obscure letters that did not make it into the accepted New Testament wherein he complained of a certain condition that afflicted his face and possibly his entire body that caused temporary blindness and disfigurement to his face. I'm not sure what the disease it might have been, but there were some possible candidates noted in the research. (God, I wish I kept better records and notes, but writing fiction doesn't require references so I take what I need and abandon the works to my own chagrin.) He was supposedly short and ugly as well and women had an aversion to him except for his teachings which they believed necessarily required asceticism and suffering for the Faith. 
I'm not really totally convinced that Mary of Magdala was actually Jesus' wife and the mother of the so-called Holy Bloodline, but it is an interesting theory. (Is this the unspeakable book?) But I do agree that she was one of His original apostles and very important to Him. I think _they _did her a grave disservice. She apparently left the Holy Lands and traveled to the Langue d'Oc region of France and became a teacher there.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm another one who doesn't believe in the Mary as Jesus wife theory - I think certain writers have come up with that idea based on the prominence she was shown in both the official and unofficial gospels. There's a passage where Jesus goes to Mary and Martha's house [the sisters of Lazarus BTW] and Mary is depicted as sitting at His feet receiving instruction - in the first century Judaic world that meant only one thing - He was teaching her to be a rabbi but that's not a very comfortable position for people to take these days.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

You're right about that being an uncomfortable position.  Most people, even what I call the easier denominations (which I will not name due to the possibility of offending a number of people) do not readily accept women in the capacity of preacher, rabbi or priest.  Women are still more readily accepted in secondary positions such as bible study teachers or nuns.  Religion is one of the remaining bastions of prejudice against women in America.  I, for one, do not understand it.  If Men of God are truly 'called' by God to the profession, are we to believe that God would really ignore women thereby indicating that he created something inherently inferior?  Ridiculous! All people are capable of spirituality to same degree more or less depending on the 'calling'.  These kinds of illogical, out-dated notions drive me up the wall.  I love Biblical archaeology, but the ideologies contained with the boundaries of Middle Eastern Cultures make it very frustrating to listen to the indigenous scholars repeating the same tired old theories with GREAT authority when their science is tainted with non-objective bias based on religious beliefs. 
I love watching the Naked Archaeologist, Simcha Yacobpovic (msp).  He's so funny and a lot more objective though he's a trifle more conservative than I am.  I love those guys he 'digs' up in Israel.  They get so flustered with him sometimes.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Brendan if we're ever in the same country one day we've got to meet up for a coffee.  You and I seem to have very similar interests and opinions on many things.  

I was recently given a copy of Cyril Aldrid's 'Akhenaten: King of Egypt' and some of his comments are absolutely fascinating.  One in particular struck my attention was the similarity between Akhenaten's hymn to the Aten and some of the Psalms of King David.  I also read Dr. Lennart Moller's book 'The Case for the Exodus' which I can highly recommend but I can't help but wondering if we don't have some of our dating, Egyptian in this case, a little bit off.  The book of II Kings gives some very odd dates for the exodus/arrival in the Holy Land and when you start to investigate a bit more it can lead you to some very, very interesting conclusions.  There's also an inscription in stone somewhere near the 1st Cataract I think, which was written by an Egyptian poet that mimics almost exactly the Exodus case as set out in the Bible.

I'm so much looking forward to getting back to Uni next year - although knowing me I'll end up going off in so many different tangents I could be there forever  

Cheers,
Trace


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Well, Miss Tracey, you have struck near the heart.  King Ankenaton!  The Rosicrucians say that Rosicrucianism stems directly from Ankenaton and his worship of the one God.  Mainstream archaeologists say that he worshipped the sun, but this may not be the case.  He may have had 'inside information'.  The fact is that all life on earth comes from the energy radiated by the sun and in fact, we humans and everything in the universe including the sun is made of the same energy, the same basic building material at the quantum level which is exactly in agreement with quantum physics.  King Ankenaton may have been not only the first known monotheistic proponent, but may have been the first quantum physicist.   Yes, coffee would go nice with quantum physics and archaeology.  Anytime and I will share all my secrets with you.


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## bobavey (Sep 14, 2010)

I believe people -- **** sapiens -- have been around much longer than most archaeologists want to admit.


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## OliviaD (Jul 21, 2009)

bobavey said:


> I believe people -- **** sapiens -- have been around much longer than most archaeologists want to admit.


What an interesting thread! I wish I had more time to spend here talking. I agree with Bob. I think we've been around much longer than the mainstream says. In my opinion, there is just no way that civilization with plumbing and writing and civil and criminal law codes could have just suddenly appeared in Mesopotamia without some kind of precedents. If you know anything about plate tectonics, you know that any signs of very ancient civilizations could have been completely eradicated over the millennia. Glaciation, floods, super volcanoes, asteroid strikes. All these things can obliterate and pulverize everything over huge expanses.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Olivia and Bob - you're both right, IMHO, that human's have been here much longer than mainstream thought would indicate. I think a lot of that probably stems from left-over church education. When the church was the ONLY source of education certain theories were taught and accepted as fact and many of them still remain unchallenged. While I might personally believe in the story of Creationism that doesn't mean that it had to take place x number of thousands of years ago. Science has taught us that the planet is billions of years old [which may still be a little on the speculative side as no one was there with a time-stamped video camera] but it just doesn't make much sense to me that human life took so long to arrive.

A book I mentioned earlier, The Vapor Canopy, actually suggests and presents some fairly interesting evidence that humans may have even existed during the time of the dinosaurs and that the reason we have so little archaeological evidence [that makes sense] is due to the global flood. Obviously unproven and quite possibly unprovable but certainly food for thought.

Cheers,
Trace


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

I agree with Bob, Olivia and Tracey.  And if I could get them to go for Direct TV, I could get a $100 bonus for each of them... no wait, that's a television commercial.  Seriously, there is a theory that the Great Salt Lake is simply a splash puddle from a tremendous tsunami that sent water racing up across Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado and Utah.  When the water washed back out to see, it left the Great Salt Lake as a puddle like puddles made by waves in depressions on the beach.  The researches have studied and dated the salt rings indicating shrinkage around the Lake and the age of the Lake seems to correspond with the 65 million year old Yucatan asteroid strike.  Makes you go, hmmmmm, now that was a big wave, but that was a six mile long asteroid whose butt was still in space when the leading edge touched the sea.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

I did not know that about the Great Salt Lake  Seriously I totally wish I had a time machine so I could go back and actually *see* these things happening. Archaeology's great but as my ex-professor used to say all the time - we're only dealing with a thing and speculating on what that thing may have been or been used for. I guess that's why I prefer textual evidence but even then there's always the bias that goes with the writer. {sigh}


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

A friend of mine showed me a documentary regarding some giant, human skeletons that had been partly mummified found in Mexico, I think? My memory can be shocking sometimes. It's true that there weren't very many but the archaeologists estimated these people would have stood on average close to 12 or 13 feet tall. They were found in a cave somewhere so had been protected by the elements but I'll certainly be doing some more research into this.

The book I've mentioned before [several times I know  ] The Vapor Canopy speculated that everything, from dinosaurs to human beings would have been much taller, larger, stronger etc because of the higher degree of protection from the sun's harmful rays. Given the examples we have all over the world of stone structures that are enormous and the possibility that the ancients knew the levitation properties of monatomic gold and if they were much taller and stronger than we are today this could go a long way to answering many of our current mysteries.

I was/am pretty excited about it and just had to share 

Cheers,
Trace


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

I saw that documentary Miss Tracey.  Sure did, but like you, can't remember where or what the name of the country was they were found in.  Your professor's statement is true enough about speculation on what things were and how they might have been used.  It seems strange to me sometimes that everything inexplicable or not readily identifiable that happens to be ancient is suddenly some sort of religious site or some sort of religious tool.  This is taking the easy, safe way out.  If it is religious in nature, then the use can be extremely fanciful/imaginary without the risk of ridicule. What if our ancestors in the dawn of time liked to doodle just like we do?  What if some of them liked to draw just for the sake of drawing?  What if they liked to play with toys?  Why wouldn't they?  
Recently, I saw a full size model of the little golden airplane found in the ruins in Central America.  When they launched it from a platform, it flew.  The thing is ancient.  Maybe our ancestors liked paper airplanes.  I'm quite sure that a paper airplane would have flown 10,000 years ago, just like it does today.  Maybe it would have been made out of silk or papyrus.  Edison's first lightbulbs were made with bamboo fiber filaments.  The original bulbs are still on display at his museum in Ft. Meyers, Florida and they still work.  The ancients had glass, they had bamboo and they had metals to make wire.  The ancient glass, bamboo and jewelry artifacts they made prove that they knew how to use what was available to them.  But well, we haven't found their flashlights, but we may have found their batteries in ancient Iraq.  Maybe, maybe not.


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

Back a few steps.
A couple of weeks ago UK tv screened a documentary on the lost gospels, including those of Peter and Mary Magdalen. It was presented by a fairly offbeat vicar. He went thru lots of the things that were deliberately left out of the New Testament (including strong presence of women as priests or evangelists) and surmised that, had these things been included, they may just have been too controversial for the world at that time such that Christianity might have fallen by the wayside.


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## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

On the subject of **** sapiens developing very quickly in terms of skills/culture etc. Yes, it can happen. Look at how technology has raced ahead in the past 50 years.

Tho obviously, because something could happen doesn't mean it did.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

@ Brendan - I agree that not necessarily everything that's found has religious significance but we tend to default there if we can't figure out any other purpose, which I think is a bit silly really. We know that the Egyptians, for example, played board games and I don't doubt that they also had art for arts sake. I once heard where an archaeologist speculated that Stonehenge may have been the ancient Briton's version of the Roman Forum and perhaps played no part in religion whatsoever.

@ Ali - I think it was only as the church grew in power, i.e. after Constantine decreed it the official religion of the Empire that they began pruning the teachings of Jesus and the followers of The Way. Even in the accepted canon Paul speaks very clearly of being instructed by Priscilla and 'the church that met at her house'. The Roman government of the day needed a cohesive influence to hold the Empire together but they also wanted one that was aligned with their pre-existing beliefs which is probably the reason so many depictions of God the Father so closely resemble the Roman statues of Zeus. That's also probably the reason the Passover meal, bread and wine, became an all the time thing [something practised by followers of Mithras, whose birthday was December 25] instead of an annual festival as Jesus intended it to be.

I think ancient technologies tend to get lost as civilizations rise and fall - what might archaeologists think of our civilization if they were examining a fallen society hundreds/thousands of years into the future?


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Ali Cooper said:


> *On the subject of **** sapiens developing very quickly in terms of skills/culture etc. Yes, it can happen. Look at how technology has raced ahead in the past 50 years.*
> 
> Tho obviously, because something could happen doesn't mean it did.


But only with Area 51 technology thrown in. I had a friend that introduced me to Zechariah Sitchin's works. I read a couple of them with an open mind and thought he might be on to something, but eventually I got to the part about the reptilians whom he believes are still running the world through the back door. It is one thing to make theories and conjectures about ancient astronauts visiting early man and sharing technology, but another to think that so many prominent world leaders have reptilian bloodlines/DNA. On the other hand, if you believe in evolution and reincarnation and you have studied one or two of the more esoteric philosophies, you might come to the conclusion that the earth has gone through a number of evolutionary stages (blooming/dying) ending with mass extinctions from time to time, and you may begin to look at things a little differently. Our lives are so short, we are naturally short-sighted and have a great deal of trouble grasping geologic and cosmic time spans. It is entirely possible that the human race has been evolving through the ages amidst the slow process of evolution and that Zechariah Sitchin might not be entirely wrong. If humankind is dominant in this age, then we (humans) may actually have been the dinosaurs that dominated the earth in another age. We would not retain any physical characteristics such as DNA or anything like that, but if you are spiritual and you believe in the immortality of the soul, well, why not?


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

I just found this thread again and realised how much I'd missed our conversations here so I thought I'd give it a bump again.  I was in Melbourne recently for the King Tut exhibition and I have to say it was amazing.  When you see the craftsmanship of such an ancient civilization it really makes you stop and think.  Maybe we've gone through more than one Dark Age and lost knowledge which we're now regaining.  It wouldn't surprise me, for example, if ancient peoples had the ability to fly - look at the Nazcar lines and drawings - they must have some purpose and must have been seen from the air.  Maybe the ancient astronauts that are talked about aren't alien astronauts but man himself making huge advances.  Even in the Bible it says of Babylon that if God had not intervened then nothing would have been withheld from them.... makes you wonder.


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## tsilver (Aug 9, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> In defense of New York, on our recent trip in July, we found New Yorkers very nice. Talked to many of 'em. Maybe we only found the nice ones.
> 
> Betsy


I lived in Manhattan and Brooklyn for approximately 19 years and I found most New Yorkers friendly. I think many so-called rude New Yorkers are actually rude tourists.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

tsilver said:


> I lived in Manhattan and Brooklyn for approximately 19 years and I found most New Yorkers friendly. I think many so-called rude New Yorkers are actually rude tourists.


It's very, very easy for a stereotype to begin but very, very hard to lose that - rather like a good/bad reputation.


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