# Why aren't there more indies in the Mysteries/Thrillers Top 100?



## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

There's is an interesting thing I've been noticing, and that is the lack of indie success in the mystery/thriller genre, which is arguably one of the more popular genres and should be easy to crack. If you go and check out the Top 100 of Science Fiction or Fantasy, you'll see a healthy mix of indie and trad pubbed titles. (If you check out the Top 100 for Romance, you'll see mostly indie titles, so let's just exclude them as special and strange.) But with mysteries and thrillers, there is a definite lack of indie presence in the Top 100. (Seriously, go look. Every time you think you see an indie title, you'll pull it up and see it's actually an Amazon imprint. I'm not kidding. I found three indie titles, and one was a boxed set. THREE.)

And thinking of people who've hit big in that genre (without ANY romance, mind you, I'm not talking Teresa Ragan and Liliana Hart, not that I don't respect their achievements because I definitely do) as indies... I come up short. Um, Bob Mayer, Russell Blake, Joe Konrath... Of those guys, only Russell is 100% indie. 

It's problematic, I think, and it's a head scratcher. I don't know why. There's not a lack of content, but it doesn't seem to be taking off. My own vague foray into thrillers crashed pretty quickly at the beginning of this year with the very disappointing sales of Rough Edges, which I thought was a great Gillian-Flynn-esque thriller that should have taken off.

I did everything that you'd do in romance to get a hit. I picked a popular niche. I wrote a story with a similar feel. I branded it accordingly. In romance, you can do that, catch a wave, and end up riding the charts. And maybe I just didn't get lucky, I don't know. But I wonder if there's something else going on with that genre, and if we could maybe collectively put our heads together and try to figure out how to crack it. 

Are mystery/thriller readers not shopping on Amazon in the same way that other genres are? Don't they browse the lists online? Or do they find out about their books elsewhere and just show up on Amazon to buy? Are they less likely to be swayed by bargain books than other genres? If so, maybe our price strategy is failing? 

Any thoughts? Am I crazy off base? 

At some point, I'd really like to start a long-running noirish P.I. series with a female protag. Like a much darker, grittier Kinsey Milhone, you know? I'd love to get lost in that. But my head tells me that I'd be better off writing a series of romance novels about conmen and the women who fall for them. And... well, darn it, romance sells well and all, but mysteries sell really well too. I mean Sue Grafton does very well for herself. So... what gives?


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## Lucian (Jun 8, 2014)

Well, I'm trying.

But yeah, with the exception of Russell Blake and a handful of others, indies are getting their @$$es handed to them in our genre by the BIG 5. Part of it is a certain Big 5 author doesn't actually write his own books but puts his name on them and LOTS of readers like the ones he... produces? And he produces a lot! As a matter of fact, I think he's sold the most overall novels of anyone else in the twenty-first century. If he hasn't he's up there.

And before anyone yells at me about my price, it was $2.99 for the first three weeks. I sold one, to the nice lady who eats at the same Pizzapapalis I do and asked me to tell her when my book comes out. If she didn't buy it, I don't know who did.

I thought by raising the price it might look more attractive to borrowers. So far, my attempt at a Jedi Mind Trick has yielded no borrows. In my defense, I'm not an actual Jedi.

I'll lower the price of the first novel to .99 cents and try a countdown deal with whatever cheap advertising I can get with no reviews when the second book comes out priced at $2.99.

Until then, I've just got to keep on writing because, as well all know, these things don't write themselves.

As far as what gives? Maybe it's one of those things that goes in cycles and our genre hasn't cycled through yet? As to why we're last... I don't know.


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## lukas dvorak (Mar 18, 2013)

I've been waiting for this thread since this is what I've been writing. I've been wondering the same thing since this was pointed out after the second release of Hugh's author survey was released. I wonder if it has mostly to do with the audience for these books. I wonder if buyers of Mysteries/Thrillers are people who are, in general terms, more intellectually inclined and maybe more educated and/or professionally oriented and, therefore, more used to using referrals from friends/customers to make spending decisions. I wonder if its not a tougher readership to please in some ways. I could be wrong. I'm just speculating.


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## maryannaevans (Apr 10, 2010)

I've been traditionally published in mystery for about ten years, although not with a Big Five publisher. (My publisher is Poisoned Pen Press, one of the largest mystery publishers outside the big guys, maybe the biggest.) I marketed my heart out for those books and I'm told I do well for a mid-list mystery author, but y'all. It ain't enough to pay the bills. I've got beautiful reviews and lovely awards, but I have found mystery sales hard to crack, even with my publisher's support.

I have independently published one thriller, one short story collection, a how-to-write novels book, and six short stories. They sell a few copies, but they don't crack the Top 100 unless it's the free list. I had some very successful BookBub fueled giveaways, but the sales levels never stuck. I mean, they never stuck _at all_. Sales lag even behind what I might have expected if I just sold to a goodly portion of the readers of my PPP books. Hey, maybe they're not good books--it's possible--but it really seems like Amazon's algorithms may be a little harder on mystery and thriller writers for some weird reason.


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

As a casual mystery reader, I can say that they like series. LOOOOOOOOONG series. As a reader, I often don't notice a series until book 10 or so has come out. And the mystery does have to be a good puzzle. I'm trying to write one right now, and the puzzle itself is a beast to get right. Maybe indies aren't as good at writing good puzzlers in a series? I don't know. I'm sure there's people out there cranking them out and doing well.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

The common wisdom in publishing right now is that the mystery audience is simply lagging behind on the ebook conversion.  They like paper books, and they shop in libraries and bookstores.

I have my own theory of why this is: For many many practical reasons which I won't go into just now, there was a crash in the mystery genre back in the late 1990s.  Around the same time Barnes & Noble (and to a lesser extent Borders) started new distribution practices that really hurt the mystery genre.  In particular, mystery readers like a series which has seven or more books in it, and will often wait to start the series until that seventh book is published.  In the old days that was okay, because both publishers booksellers routinely nurtured a series along for that many books before pushing it to see if it would break out.

But the new B & N ordering systems basically killed any series that didn't break out within the first two or three books.  As a result, only three kinds of mysteries survived for a while: thrillers that could hit the best seller audience right off, gimmick cozies (sheep detectives who ran catering businesses, etc), and authors who managed to become already established before the crash.  The other books still existed, but they never lived past the first 2-5 books.  After that the authors had to change their pen names and try again.

In the past ten years we've seen some recovery, but in the meantime, large sections of the audience fled the genre, and as far as I can tell (being one of them) we pretty much all ran to used and rare books.  Many of the mystery fans I know are extremely resistant to new books, and associate ebooks with the killing of the old classics.  However....

This year a whole lot of those out-of-print and hard-to-find classics have started showing up in large quantities in ebook form.  Some of them ONLY in ebook form.  And for the first time, I see my classic mystery fan friends starting to think this Kindle thing might be okay, maybe. 

Also, many of the surviving parts of the genre are beginning to make the shift because the authors are beginning to shift over too.  Some have managed to keep rights to backlists of those series that were killed off at 3 books, and have started writing more in the old series and publishing them independently.  And those authors are bringing their new fanbase with them.

I expect that our genre is going to start catching up soon. 

Camille


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

Daringnovelist, Oh good, some hope! I know over at The Kill Zone blog, the mystery/thriller writers are slowly getting the rights to their backlists and self-publishing, and starting to do very well. Same with the lady at Mystery Writing is Murder. So maybe it's kind of a sleeper genre, where ebooks are concerned?

This means that you mystery writers had better get busy and write series, because it'll catch fire in another few years.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Kessie Carroll said:


> As a casual mystery reader, I can say that they like series. LOOOOOOOOONG series. As a reader, I often don't notice a series until book 10 or so has come out. And the mystery does have to be a good puzzle. I'm trying to write one right now, and the puzzle itself is a beast to get right. Maybe indies aren't as good at writing good puzzlers in a series? I don't know. I'm sure there's people out there cranking them out and doing well.


Oh, man, yes. Writing a good puzzler (or even a moderate puzzler with good clues) takes TIME. You can't "pants" any part of it if your clues are to be properly sewn, and yet you want to keep some spontaneity in the writing -- so it can be a long slog.

I've come up with some methods that help over the years (like my Maverick Method), but right now I'm going to try something else: I'm going to try plotting the killer's side of the story without reference to what will be in the book -- plot with meticulous detail as if I were writing an inverted mystery. And then I'm going to sit down and write the story of the detective and witnessess -- which can be completely spontaneous. I think this will speed things up with Starling and Marquette (the "Man Who" books).

For some reason, my mystery westerns are much easier, but still harder and slower than a straight adventure.

Camille


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

Kessie Carroll said:


> This means that you mystery writers had better get busy and write series, because it'll catch fire in another few years.


Working on it!

I had wondered why there weren't the same stories about mystery/thriller indie writers as there were for some other genres... The author earnings report answered that a little: because it's currently sewn up by the Big 5.

Other indie mystery writers who've done well: Gemma Halliday (who has quite bit of romance too, and she's hybrid, but she also has the big series for readers), Denise Grover Swank.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

One of the other things that could help the mystery genre catch up:

You know how I said we lost a lot of readers like me to used bookstores?  Well at the same time, the genre stopped attracting certain segments of new readers.  There are a lot of young people out there who don't know what the mystery genre is really like.

Now a lot of these young readers are discovering classic mystery in college (the same way we used to discover the coolness of classic movies in the days back before home video).  But I wonder if there isn't also an opportunity for those who might be interested in writing mysteries for middle readers and YA.  Especially for those teens who are not being served by the current flavors of NA and paranormal or dystopian fiction.

I suspect there is a potential market for intelligent, contemporary mystery/crime stories suitable for those ages (and NOT "for kids" -- but rather the bridge books to adult fiction).  That area is also a tough one for Indies, unfortunately.

Camille


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Diane Patterson said:


> Other indie mystery writers who've done well: Gemma Halliday (who has quite bit of romance too, and she's hybrid, but she also has the big series for readers), Denise Grover Swank.


Also Kboards very own Jana DeLeon and a few others I can't think of right now. Oh, and Teresa Ragan's thrillers did very well BEFORE she got picked up by Amazon.

But I don't think mystery and thriller can be lumped together, and perhaps Valerie isn't. The indie mystery scene is doing ok compared to thrillers, but these are more mysteries with a strong romance in them, and often chicklit/humourous/cozy. Most successful indie mystery authors also seem to be hybrid and there are a few small presses doing well in the cozier branches of the genre. Back when I was approached by one, they had quite a few books in Apple's top 200 for the genre, but they weren't doing all that well on Amazon.

I think a few posts above have hit on the reasons why indie thrillers aren't doing so well. Just looking at my circle of friends and family, the thriller readers tend to read less voraciously than romance and cozy mystery readers, plus they only pick from authors they've liked previously. Cost isn't much of a factor so they'll pay for their favourite authors. They don't browse online but will search for an author or title directly on Amazon (if they shop for ebooks there), and they don't subscribe to Bookbub etc. They also prefer to read a hard copy not an ebook. Since they're not all that voracious, they don't see a need to try a new author when the handful of authors they know and enjoy produce enough to satisfy them. As a guess, I'd say those readers who do read ebook thrillers and are willing to try new authors are seeing Amazon recommend their T&M imprint books. And again, because they're not voracious, there's enough to satisfy them in that crop.

Just some thoughts. This is a really interesting thread.


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## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

As a relatively recent (3 years), and certainly not overly prolific (2 novels), entrant into thriller writing, I have a few comments about the relative paucity of indie titles among bestsellers in the "Mysteries & Thrillers" category.

First, polls show that female readers considerably outnumber male readers. That may also have a significant effect on the dominant status of romance titles over mysteries and thrillers. There's simply more demand for romance; hence, more of it is being written. Together, both the number of titles and the demand for them would naturally propel more of them into the top bestseller ranks.

Second, based on what I see here at KBoards, I suspect that many, many more indie authors are writing in the multitude of "Romance" subcategories than in "Mysteries & Thrillers." That also may explain the fewer number of the latter titles. Indie female romance authors, not limited by trad-publisher constraints on frequency of publication, have moved in to fill the demand. Male readers significantly dominate in the sci-fi category, and -- again, from observation here on KBoards -- among writers of sci-fi. Again, given the limitations trad publishers impose on their sci-fi authors, it's easy to see why an indie sci-fi author like Hugh Howey could out-publish them and soar up the category lists.

Third, the definitions of the categories are problematic.

"Romance" at least deals with the same topic -- romantic relationships -- whether it's romantic suspense, historical romance, erotica, etc., and the audience is almost entirely female. But "Mysteries & Thrillers" is an extremely heterogeneous "category." What, exactly, does a quiet British cozy have in common with an international ticking-bomb military/political/spy thriller? Due to the vast differences among types of mysteries and thrillers, reader demographics are all over the place, depending on the subcategory/subgenre. So, do these types of books really deserve a common category heading? And -- given female domination of the reading audience -- is it surprising that these titles would appeal to smaller niches than would "romance"?

Fourth and finally, many romance titles also contain mystery or thriller elements. So, where are the boundary lines, exactly? The first two thrillers in my series, for example, have strong elements of crime/mystery and espionage/thrillers, but also -- at their heart -- a hot ongoing romance between the hero and heroine. The first in the series, _HUNTER_, hit #1 in Kindle "Mysteries & Thrillers," #1 in "Romantic Suspense," and #2 in "Romance."

So...which category can claim it?

I think it's been far easier for female indie authors to break into the romance category due to their greater numbers in that category, plus the insatiable demand for such titles -- a demand that trad publishers can't fill. It's a different story for mysteries and thrillers. Given the demographics of today's readers, perhaps aspiring thriller or mystery authors might spice up their stories with some romance. I didn't do that in my series with demographic calculations in mind; I did it because the romance was central to the series arc. But the books have appealed to as many female readers as men, if not more. In retrospect, I'm glad that my story requirements also tapped into the prevailing demand.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I found all three that Valerie mentioned because they all have loss leaders and several books.
Alas they don't take grown children as payment.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

What I think is the weirdest thing is that Bookbub has the most subscribers in the mystery genre, which would seem to indicate that there's a strong audience for bargain ebooks in mysteries. Yeah? Or is that most people prefer some other genre, and just tick the mystery box because it's the least offensive genre in existence. (I mean, who doesn't like mysteries? Everyone loves mysteries.)

Camille brings up some good points. Now that I think about it, I don't see a lot of new trad pubbed authors writing long-running mystery series. It's mostly people who've had stuff out for a while. However, there's definitely a group of newer female authors writing series mysteries (darker things) like Chelsea Cain and Jennifer Hillier. There are romantic relationships in their books, but they aren't romance, at least not typically. And there's also a lot of interest in those who-is-my-husband-_really_-type thrillers, which I think originates from _Gone Girl_.

Anyway, I can see this all being in paper and coming from readers who are less voracious. (Although... I don't know. I spent some time hanging out in a couple goodreads groups for thrillers, and those ladies like to _read_.)



Robert Bidinotto said:


> "Romance" at least deals with the same topic -- romantic relationships -- whether it's romantic suspense, historical romance, erotica, etc., and the audience is almost entirely female. But "Mysteries & Thrillers" is an extremely heterogeneous "category." What, exactly, does a quiet British cozy have in common with an international ticking-bomb military/political/spy thriller? Due to the vast differences among types of mysteries and thrillers, reader demographics are all over the place, depending on the subcategory/subgenre. So, do these types of books really deserve a common category heading? And -- given female domination of the reading audience -- is it surprising that these titles would appeal to smaller niches than would "romance"?


Ooh, careful. There's a wide, wide array of readers in romance too. There are people who read m/f/m shifter erotic romance and people who like sweet Regencies, and trust me--they ain't got much in common. 

Anyway, I think there are _a lot_ of women who do like to read mysteries and thrillers (albeit a wide range of things). So, the idea that it's a male genre and that's why it doesn't sell so well... I don't think think that's the answer. Because it does sell well. It sells better than fantasy and science fiction, and yet there seem to be more indie authors making a living in sci fi and fantasy than in mysteries and thrillers.

But I do agree that mysteries and thrillers are a wide, wide range of things, and that some pockets are vastly different than others. I completely admit that I'm casting a super wide net here. And it may be too wide to draw any actual conclusions.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Robert: Yeah - especially on the romance.

I think right now that most of the "mystery romance" books are hopping among the romance audience rather than the mystery audience. (Which is good, it brings more people into the genre.)

As for where the dividing line is....  I think it roves.

In classic mystery, there was often a romantic subplot, but mysteries always had the option of violating the romance rules.  It's always possible that the lover is the killer, for instance.  But it also is an issue in more subtle ways.  A long mystery series with a husband and wife team, for instance, had to be stable and seldom revolved around a romantic plot where the characters are kept apart until the story is resolved.  (There are notable exceptions -- Sayers, for one. And of course, sometimes the first book in a series was romantic suspense, and thereafter the romantic issues were solved and the series got on with mystery.)

There is also the other kind of romantic subplot in mystery: the soap opera, where there is no HEA, nor is it a story where the lover turns out to be the evil killer. It's just ... life. Relationships grow and break, sometimes the stress of the main story destroys a marriage, sometimes it resolves differences. Characters hop from relationship to relationship.  You see this more in Police Procedural, and hard-boiled, but it can work in all kinds of mysteries.  

And while sometimes romance fans are okay with that in non-romance genre books, they tend to frown on it in romance.

Camille


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Diane Patterson said:


> Working on it!
> 
> I had wondered why there weren't the same stories about mystery/thriller indie writers as there were for some other genres... The author earnings report answered that a little: because it's currently sewn up by the Big 5.
> 
> Other indie mystery writers who've done well: Gemma Halliday (who has quite bit of romance too, and she's hybrid, but she also has the big series for readers), Denise Grover Swank.


I write thrillers and that is what I'm seeing. The Big 5 still has a stranglehold on our genre, but we're trying to pry their fingers loose. 

By my estimation 8 of the 15 top earning authors write in the Mystery/Thriller genre. Big powerhouses like Michael Connelly, John Sanford, Daniel Silva, and others aren't even on there. Even JK Rowling is now writing thrillers under her pen name.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eeji45lmkd/james-patterson-94-million-2/

It's the next frontier for indies to crack and dominate.


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## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

I've been asking this very question with the release of my latest, _Frozen Highway_. I wrote it to be a fresh take on the old thriller format. I purposefully wrote it with women readers in mind, trying to capture multiple audiences while weaving in light romance and family issues. This was a bad move. I have yet to sell a single copy. The book is lagging even with freebies -- less than 250 in 5 days with light promotion. I don't think it's a quality issue either as my first review was a glowing 5-star. It could be that the book is still too new - but I'm beginning to think that the thriller genre is simply ignored by many e-book readers.

My impression is that the thriller genre's readers are dominated by over-50 males who read paperback. My dad read this genre obsessively in the 1980s. Today, I know of no one in their 20s or 30s who is hooked on the genre. Maybe the term "thriller" is so closely associated with Cold War era spy books that many readers ignore it? I'm now doubting that women even click on the category.

I'm reconsidering _Frozen Highway_'s position in the "thriller" category and planning to move it somewhere else - I'm just not sure where.

Maybe we need a _50 Shades of Grey_ to introduce and make the genre acceptable to younger readers? Consider how many light erotica books were selling before and after 50 Shades made it acceptable.


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## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

Michael, you raise another good issue. I for one think the thriller genre has been suffering from a lack of fresh ideas. If you subtract all books about serial killers, all books about terrorists poised to strike (pick the locale) with WMDs, and all books about psychologically and/or physically wounded heroes seeking to exact revenge upon the Bad Guys for their murder of a loved one, ask yourself how many titles would be left in the genre these days. Okay, I know that I'm exaggerating to make a point -- there _are_ fresh plots and characters out there -- but I do think it is a fair point, in that the exceptions prove the rule.

It's like in the horror genre, where we find endless variations on the theme of the small group of people stranded at an isolated (pick the locale: haunted house/castle; deserted island; summer camp; scientific expedition; etc.), where some fiendish force or unstoppable killer(s) in their midst is picking them off, one by one. That plot idea was fresh the first, oh, ten thousand times it was done.

Thriller writers need to range farther afield, I think.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

I am a rabid fan of the mystery and thriller genres and I love supporting Indie authors. I would much rather buy Indie than from the big publishing houses. I am a member of Bookbub, but not because I am looking for a bargain. I'm a member because they often list books I might never have found on my own.  Of course, I can only speak for myself, but the issue I have had in the past with the Indie mysteries and thrillers I have read are:

A lot of them just plain sucked. I don't think it is because the writer sucked. I think it is because a good mystery or thriller is incredibly hard to write and may require a skill set that many Indies simply don't have. Many of the books seemed to ramble with no sense of direction, as if the the writer was as much in the dark about where the story was going as the reader was. Many were filled with plot holes and inconsistencies, and the endings were disappointing, either because I could see it coming from chapter two or it was totally implausible. 

Another issue I had with many of the Indie mystery/thrillers I read was the gore and language. I'm not a prude and I don't have a weak stomach, but it seems that a lot of Indies are under the impression that the more brutal the scene and vulgar the language, the better. Some of the books I attempted to read had so much vulgar language that it became distracting and made it hard to focus on the story. I wish more of these writers understood that gripping and disgusting are two totally different things. 

If I could find more Indies who know how to write a gripping, quality thriller or mystery, I would buy more self pubbed mystery/thrillers.


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## Iain Ryan (Jun 25, 2014)

This came up on SPP. 

Research is a big part of it, according to Russell Blake. Especially with thrillers.

I personally find them difficult to write, borderline impossible to pants.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I wish I could tell you. I had a thriller, No Good Deed, in the top 20 in the Kindle Store three years ago. I had a second book in the top 200s at the same time. Maybe it was because that was all I had at the time, and my third book didn't come out for nine more months, but I never was able to gain much traction from that incredible month. At the end of 2011, I remember seeing a list of the top 100 books for each month. My book ended that month somewhere around the high fifties, if I remember right. Anyway, that was the highlight of my short career and other than a Bookbub ad in April 2013 that put the same book in a duo set with the second book, in the top 100 for a day or so, that was the closest I've come to hitting it big.

The authors I remember also being in the same genre as me were mostly picked up by Amazon Imprints. Michael Wallace comes to mind. His books used to be in my also boughts back then, now they rarely are.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

What I'd like to see is a return of the old Hitchcock-style suspense thriller.  (Well, the pre-Psycho ones.  Not that I object to Psycho or Frenzy -- it's just that's all we see these days.)

The smaller, more domestic suspense story -- a slow build of tension as an ordinary person finds himself wrapped up in a bad situation.  The kind where, if the killer is a little mad, there is no need to spend a lot of time profile him. And no need for excessive gore and shock.

Things like Rear Window and Strangers on a Train.

Camille


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## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> What I'd like to see is a return of the old Hitchcock-style suspense thriller. (Well, the pre-Psycho ones. Not that I object to Psycho or Frenzy -- it's just that's all we see these days.)
> 
> The smaller, more domestic suspense story -- a slow build of tension as an ordinary person finds himself wrapped up in a bad situation. The kind where, if the killer is a little mad, there is no need to spend a lot of time profile him. And no need for excessive gore and shock.
> 
> ...


I so agree with you. In all seriousness, those would never sell in today's spy-dominated "Thriller" category. I'm guessing that those are now under Fiction and Literature:Thrillers, Mysteries... This is a subcategory that I think gets lost even though I believe there is a readership for this. Maybe we need to rebrand it? Create a new category?


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## S.A. Mulraney (May 20, 2011)

My biggest mistake was not having book 2 ready soon after book 1. And when I say not ready, I mean two and a half years not ready. In its first year, I sold and gave away close to 20,000 copies of Multiples, but had nothing to back it up with. But, even then, cracking the top was a pipe dream. The number of daily sales needed to crack into even the subcategories is a lot. Now that I have the second book out, they're doing a little better, but nowhere near the consistency level needed to be near the top. I think it'll be better once I finalize the trilogy, but I have no hopes of maintaining a presence near the top.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

michaelsnuckols said:


> I so agree with you. In all seriousness, those would never sell in today's spy-dominated "Thriller" category. I'm guessing that those are now under Fiction and Literature:Thrillers, Mysteries... This is a subcategory that I think gets lost even though I believe there is a readership for this. Maybe we need to rebrand it? Create a new category?


Actually, most of them just don't exist because publishers won't publish them (unless they are a classic or by a famous writer).

And imho that's the problem with the whole mystery/crime/thriller genre -- publishing practices has narrowed it down to a subset of the audience whose tastes can be most predicted and manipulated.

It will take a while to rebuild the audience for the more general and varied titles in the genre, but I really do think it will happen because of indie publishing. It will happen in all genres: but it won't happen in the best seller lists. Midlist writing will still be midlist. And people looking for those books will continue to look for them in places other than the category best sellers.

And yeah, branding is a part of rebuilding the audience, imho. That's why I do these odd, retro covers. And that's also why I'm starting to write short fiction for submission to the magazines again. That is one thing that seems to be true: the people reading short mystery fiction these days seem to overlap quite a lot with traditional mystery fans -- much more so than with those who read best sellers.

Camille


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## Elliott Garber (Apr 8, 2013)

This has been a big question for me recently as I try to decide how to move forward with my recently-finished thriller. I'd been planning to independently publish it all along, but more recently I've been wondering if I should at least give the traditional route a go given my genre.


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 20/9/2018_


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

The mystery/thriller audience is NOT lagging.  They just aren't buying many indies.  There are several reasons.  The biggest is that only a few indies are approaching thrillers in anything like a businessman way.  They're not writing in series.  They're waiting too long between releases.  They don't recognize the heavily female digital market.  They're not using pricing and promotions sensibly.

The second reason is that mystery/thriller readers depend more on personal recommendations from friends and less on browsing.  This takes time and effort to acquire.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm a mystery reader and writer, in the cozy or traditional genre. I like to read long series, which most indie authors don't have (myself included). I don't start a series unless the author have at least three books out. And some of the trad pub authors have been writing in the genre long enough to have over 10 books out in their series. So when I find a new author I like, I start at the beginning and go through all their books in order, which means in a given year I would only read from 3 to 4 authors. 

At this stage of my life, with young children, price not an issue for me when it comes to books. Time is. I would rather invest my reading time on an established author with a history of writing well plotted books. It requires more effort IMHO to write a mystery than other genres, so I think some indie authors might not think it's a worthwhile time investment.

Frankly, I'm surprise some people have bought my book at all since I only have one book out. And with my limited free time, I'm a one book a year writer. So we'll see if I continue to sell or if there would be an audience for me in a year's time.


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

I got my start writing mysteries and suspense novels. Been in the industry for several decades, and I can honestly say that to the average reader, I'm as unknown as someone who publishes a brand new book (sometimes even more unknown). At one point, I broke away from the traditional publishing side and went independent. Hasn't really worked out for me. I keep thinking that if I was a romance writer, it probably would have been a much different experience for me. But that doesn't change the fact that it's like I started yesterday instead of 30 years ago.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

CJArcher said:


> Also Kboards very own Jana DeLeon and a few others I can't think of right now. Oh, and Teresa Ragan's thrillers did very well BEFORE she got picked up by Amazon.
> 
> But I don't think mystery and thriller can be lumped together, and perhaps Valerie isn't. The indie mystery scene is doing ok compared to thrillers, but these are more mysteries with a strong romance in them, and often chicklit/humourous/cozy. Most successful indie mystery authors also seem to be hybrid and there are a few small presses doing well in the cozier branches of the genre. Back when I was approached by one, they had quite a few books in Apple's top 200 for the genre, but they weren't doing all that well on Amazon.
> 
> ...


Actually, I think thriller is one of Bookbub's biggest genres in terms of subscribers.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

VMた said:


> The mystery/thriller audience is NOT lagging. They just aren't buying many indies. There are several reasons. The biggest is that only a few indies are approaching thrillers in anything like a businessman way. They're not writing in series. They're waiting too long between releases. They don't recognize the heavily female digital market. They're not using pricing and promotions sensibly.
> 
> The second reason is that mystery/thriller readers depend more on personal recommendations from friends and less on browsing. This takes time and effort to acquire.


By "lagging" I think people mean that the indie market is lagging behind other genres. Which is absolutely true -- it is growing on a similar arc to other genres, but it started later.

And if you look at the stats gathered by MWA, the audience itself is definitely adopting ebooks more slowly than other genres. (Not just indie ebooks but any ebooks.) They are slow to move partly for the reasons you mention. As we talked about above: the mystery audience (especially the part of the audience traditional publishing already lost) doesn't start reading a series until seven or more books. I don't think anybody here disagreed with that.

I also agree very much that the audience doesn't go for marketing tricks -- they read authors they know, and pick up new authors from recommendations by trusted sources. That in itself slows down adoption of ebooks and new authors. Marketing just doesn't work.

The one place I would disagree with you is on the marketing to the female bias: yes, there is a portion of the market that applies to strongly, and since women make up a larger portion of the book buying audience, it never hurts to market to women -- but the "lost generation" market I'm talking about has a more evenly split audience (or, just from my personal experience, a slight male bias). And that group, which is large if you go by used book stats, is even more resistant to the kind of marketing indies tend to do. They are also even more resistant to ebooks.

For them, the big issue is long series -- not just how many books, but also how long you've been around. They really want to have heard of you a few times before they even think about trying your books.

Camille


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

If you look at the Kindle bestseller lists, Mystery/Thriller/Suspense outnumbers romance 8 days out of 10.  That's not lagging.  Indies just aren't delivering what readers want.

I'm supposedly in an "easy" genre, being in romance.  I sold a little more than a book a week before I went permafree.  After a month of my second release, even with a ton of promo, I was down to sub-10 books a day.  Only after my third book did I not PLUMMET after three weeks.  And I was releasing them a month apart.

If thriller is "harder," then I would expect six high-quality books in a single series in a single year would be a good business plan.  Instead, people are doing twice a year releases.  

Most thriller writers still think they should be able to build strong careers on less than 4 books a year in a single series.  That's just not possible in any genre except epic fantasy for 99.999% of writers.

And please don't tell me that the reason is that thrillers are just innately harder to write than romance.  It's just not true.  There are just fewer crazy people in thrillers.  I'm doing my second allnighter in a ROW.  I've had 1 hr of sleep in the last 48 hours.  60-hour weeks are a happy dream of gentler times.  I talk to my husband while formatting bundles.  This is damned hard work, and a whole lot of it.  And there are dozens of romance writers out there doing this, day in and day out.  In thrillers-with-no-love, there's Blake and Konrath.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

valeriec80 said:


> My own vague foray into thrillers crashed pretty quickly at the beginning of this year with the very disappointing sales of Rough Edges, which I thought was a great Gillian-Flynn-esque thriller that should have taken off.


Thank you, thank you! This is exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for (but can never find). You just made a UK sale. 

Sorry to interrupt, carry on, folks...


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## Nancy Warren (May 5, 2014)

I find this fascinating too. I am an established romance author but I love mysteries. For option clause reasons, I wrote a humorous mystery in 2011 and it did well. It was my first Indie. Then I had to fulfill my other contracts and had some life issues to deal with and THREE YEARS passed before I got the second book in the series out. Here's where it gets interesting.  I got a BB ad for the first one July 2, so a month ago, set to free and had 125K downloads (half of which I attribute directly to BookBub). It went to number 1 in free and the second mystery rose very high (forget how high) in mystery/thriller. My results were about four times better than what I achieved with a BB ad for a romance novel in March. I think there is a huge market out there for Indie mysteries. It's getting the series going and maintaining it regularly that's important. 

I am hoping to get the third book in my Toni Diamond series out in October and keep up a regular publishing schedule. I do think that is a market that is ready to grow. And yes, mystery readers (which are really quite different than thriller readers) are an older demographic, and by and large a more conservative one, but I am noticing that more and more older people are embracing ereaders.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I don't read this genre so if i say something stupid here, don't hit me!

But...

Could it be something as simple as that indies sell mostly long series, while mysteries tend to be stand alone novels? Or am I wrong? As I say, I don't read them so I have no idea. i DO know my own genre sells series WAY better than standalones.


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## Nancy Warren (May 5, 2014)

Mark, I would never hit you, I enjoy your posts too much. 

However, I think the vast majority of mysteries are, in fact, series. Or that's my impression anyway. Everyone from Agatha Christie with Poirot, Miss Marple etc to John D. MacDonald to Janet Evanovich and the umpteen cozy series with amateur sleuths who range from hat shop owners to caterers are in series. It's more thrillers that stand alone.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

What an excellent post Drew Gideon.    I used to read thrillers for years too and really grew tired of the SOS, until I knew where the story was going after a couple chapters and I was bored to death. Thriller readers can be a demanding group of readers and are very different, but I think the book has to offer more than other genres. There are tons of indie thrillers out there (just look) but only a tiny percentage of them seem to click with readers. I also think this genre has very strong author loyalty so hard to crack. Brad Thor may have many stereotypical characters and plots and he will sell, but a new author needs more than just those.


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## melissafmiller (Feb 17, 2011)

People have shared lots of valid reasons, but I just want to add a different point: despite the dearth of indies at the top of the "big" mystery & thriller list (which is populated, as noted above, by big name trad-pubbed megasellers), there are loads of indie titles camped out in all of the subcategory lists. Loads of people. I'm on my phone, but without looking, you've got Mel Comley, Monique Martin, Cheryl Bradshaw, Rachel Grant, J. Carson Black, Rebecca Forster, CJ Lyons, Paul Levine, Diane Capri, Toby Neal, in addition to the names listed in earlier posts.... And the list goes on. There may not be a breakout millionaire in mystery & thriller but there are a lot people connecting in meaningful ways with those readers and enjoying some real success. All is not lost. ;-)


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

melissafmiller said:


> People have shared lots of valid reasons, but I just want to add a different point: despite the dearth of indies at the top of the "big" mystery & thriller list (which is populated, as noted above, by big name trad-pubbed megasellers), there are loads of indie titles camped out in all of the subcategory lists. Loads of people. I'm on my phone, but without looking, you've got Mel Comley, Monique Martin, Cheryl Bradshaw, Rachel Grant, J. Carson Black, Rebecca Forster, CJ Lyons, Paul Levine, Diane Capri, Toby Neal, in addition to the names listed in earlier posts.... And the list goes on. There may not be a breakout millionaire in mystery & thriller but there are a lot people connecting in meaningful ways with those readers and enjoying some real success. All is not lost. ;-)


Thanks for this! Very encouraging.


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## jamielakenovels (Jan 14, 2014)

Russell is not 100% indie anymore. He partnered with Clive Cussler to write 2 books so far.

I think it's only a matter of time before there are more. The thing is that there are more brand names that have been around forever in those genres. It'll take some time but not much more of it before there are more Indie brand names. Remember, readers don't care who published it. They only care if it's a great book.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Yes, mystery is lagging behind other genres, at least in regards to indies breaking into the top. But I think there is a good niche for midlisters. I feel like I'm on the edge of it. A while back there was a thread about Zones of Discoverability for indies and it said something like Phase 1 you sold a few books a week but once you started selling in the 100s you'd pop up and stay steady. (Vastly paraphrased summary and probably not entirely accurate. I have to go reread that thread.) But anyway, I haven't found that to be true. In October 2013, I got my third book out and set the first for perma. Sales grew exponentially and I went from selling maybe 20-30 a month to a couple of hundred across both paying books. I had a BB run in Jan that helped too. But ultimately the "resting state" seems to be around 150 books/month. I just launched the 4th in the series in July and had another BB run later that month so I don't really know the affect a 4th in series will give. 
I'm finding this thread incredibly interesting and I love hearing others' ideas about the mystery/indie genre. I do hope that indies here are due for a surge. I could sure use one.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

I've always been troubled by the categories. Mysteries are not necessarily thrillers, nor even murders. The first two stories in my mystery series take place in the Caribbean and have a lot to do with place (Lesser Antilles and Venezuela), so that tag gets it in the international thriller subcategory where it competes with books nothing like it. A reader who expects an international terrorist plot will be disappointed. I don't write a lot of gore in the stories, because are about people trying to untangle their (or someone else's) life from the tangles that that can get into. The can be suspenseful, but the suspense category sucks for them. 
I've got the BISAC codes sitting open and find mystery/general, Cozy, hard-boiled, international Mystery & crime (doesn't that cover all world events?), police procedural, private investigators, traditional British, and women sleuths. Thrillers have similar sub cats, with general, crime, espionage, historical... 
So if you write a mystery, especially a gentle story that isn't about special ops or focused on policework, and not even a real detective (,y main character is captain of an inter-island freighter), there really is no sub category that works correctly, in terms of telling the reader what it is. And if you can't do that, they'll never even stumble across your wonderfully written blurb. 

A perplexing problem and contributes to the confusion. The Big howevermany writers have been planted in niches, and probably some of the categories evolved to accommodate what they are doing. So they dominate.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

VMた said:


> If you look at the Kindle bestseller lists, Mystery/Thriller/Suspense outnumbers romance 8 days out of 10. That's not lagging. Indies just aren't delivering what readers want.
> 
> I'm supposedly in an "easy" genre, being in romance. I sold a little more than a book a week before I went permafree. After a month of my second release, even with a ton of promo, I was down to sub-10 books a day. Only after my third book did I not PLUMMET after three weeks. And I was releasing them a month apart.
> 
> ...


Actually I do agree with you on Thrillers.

I haven't spoken up much in that part of the discussion because I don't much like "best sellers" (which are a very different subgenre from the rest of the genre). I have no idea if the folks here writing thrillers are talking about that part of the genre or not. Those books you see at the top are books non-genre readers read, not the books the bulk of the mystery-crime-thriller readers are reading. It just happens that there are a lot of non-genre readers.

Thrillers as action/adventure stories (which is what passes for thrillers these days) are indeed easier to write, except that they have to be much longer and very well researched. But if you already know your weapons/forensics/whatever science it's based on, it's not that hard to write them.

It is a lot harder to write good psychological suspense and mystery. That's not really relevant to the discussion, it's just the reason people are giving for why people write them slowly at first.

If you don't write it, though, I suggest not casting stones about it. Especially among people who do read and write it extensively.

Camille


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## Lloyd MacRae (Nov 18, 2012)

"Patterson has sold more than 300 million copies since his 1976 debut; today, his books account for one out of every 17 hardcover novels purchased in the United States."

Maybe we just kidnap Patterson (and Cussler just to be sure) and create a hole in the market.

With all the talent in this thread _someone _should be able to make this a perfect crime.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I think one of the issues here is that people are often talking apples and oranges. The crime genre really is a collection of many very different genres, with very different audiences in many cases. And it is the one genre that really does overlap with mainstream fiction as well.

One thing to remember here is that most of us are actually speaking as READERS here, not writers. Some people are responding to us as if we are ignorant of what the reading public wants, when we are actually extremely frustrated readers who can't get what we want.

In the long post up above responding to me (which I haven't had time to read carefully read so I won't respond yet fully) mentioned that the reason mystery readers (though she seems to be a thriller reader, not a mystery reader) like long series is because they can't trust new books. Which is completely valid.... but that's a different genre from what the rest of us are talking about.

Again, look at studies and polls, and you see that mystery readers tend to not read stand-alone books even by their favorite writers. They like long series _as a genre in and of itself_. Thriller readers, on the other hand, are like suspense and romance readers -- they like to read about life-changing events. (And life-changing events don't do well in a long stable series -- though there are authors who are adapting. Those series, however, don't please the series mystery crowd.)

Camille


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

artan said:


> I'm a mystery reader and writer, in the cozy or traditional genre. I like to read long series, which most indie authors don't have (myself included). I don't start a series unless the author have at least three books out.


Book 3 in my series comes out on Wed. Books 4 & 5 are about to go in beta. I am not expecting them to catch fire. I am in for the long term. Like several have said I think its just a matter of waiting for the audience to catch up.

Consider this, the foreign markets haven't even really caught on to the ereader revolution but Germany is on the cusp. Japan will probably follow, then maybe Italy then who knows. That same paradigm probably applies to American genre readerships. By that time I'll have a completed series in a cozy/hardboiled hybrid niche all ready for them.

Sent from my LG-L38C using Tapatalk 2


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## CelinaGrace (Nov 20, 2013)

<waves hand tentatively>

I'm a full time indie author (just - from July!) writing mysteries and I'm doing very well. To be honest, I hadn't really thought about mystery not being an 'indie friendly' genre - I just wrote the books that I wanted to read. Started off with two psychological thrillers (and would love to write more of these but the mystery series are the breadwinners so I have to concentrate on that for now).

I categorise some of my mysteries as 'cosy' and they are, in that they are non-gory, non-violent and with the concentration being on the aftermath of the crime, rather than the reader actually experiencing it. My American readers seem to absolutely love the fact that there is barely any violence, sex or swearing in the books 

This is a fascinating thread, by the way. I admit I skimmed it because I was so eager to post but now I'm going to go back and read it thoroughly!

Oh and I don't think that mysteries take that much more time to write than other genres. Perhaps it's just the way my twisty mind works but I can get a new book out in 2-3 months (depending on how many child-free hours I have to write...)


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

jdcore said:


> Consider this, the foreign markets haven't even really caught on to the ereader revolution but Germany is on the cusp. Japan will probably follow, then maybe Italy then who knows. That same paradigm probably applies to American genre readerships. By that time I'll have a completed series in a cozy/hardboiled hybrid niche all ready for them.


That's a very good point. If our readership needs time to find us (for whatever reason) then that's just more time to get our ducks in a row.

Camille


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## Eileen Goudge (Sep 22, 2012)

Wow, a girl could get depressed reading this thread.  Fortunately my new title, while my first mystery, isn't my first.  Also, it's Book 1 of a series, so WHEW, at least I'm on the right track.  Let's hope it finds a home in the hearts of a few readers


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## lukas dvorak (Mar 18, 2013)

I  have a couple of quick questions to those who are more knowledgeable:

1. What does it mean for a mystery to be "cozy"?

2. Not that Stieg Larsson needed much help given the success of the Salander series, but I wonder, as a hypothetical, which genre it would be best to market these books in if he was a new author and just beginning to market those books. They don't seem to really be a hard core police procedural, nor are they hard-core espionage. Most of the story centers on Salandar so they really are more of a drama than either of the other two categories.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

I write in cozy mystery and do very well. My books have been on the USA Today and NYT lists. I'm sure I'm not selling nearly as many as Janet Evanovich, but I also don't have to. A 70% royalty allows me a very nice living on far less sales.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I write in cozy mystery and do very well. My books have been on the USA Today and NYT lists. I'm sure I'm not selling nearly as many as Janet Evanovich, but I also don't have to. A 70% royalty allows me a very nice living on far less sales.


Good point! And it's nice to hear you are doing well.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

This has been an interesting thread. I'm glad I'm not alone in wondering this. My current continuing saga (There Was a House) is psychological thriller or psychological suspense. It is about 5 girls and 1 boy forced into sex trafficking and their plans for revenge.

It has bombed. I chalked it up to 2 things. First, I was with a publisher when the first 2 60,000 word or more episodes came out. This publisher had promised me promotion and a big push, advance ARC reviews, the whole shebang. Instead, book one came out with NOTHING. I did more with my previous books than they did. With no one. The second one they did a facebook party, but I didn't realize 99% of the people they invited were employees/writers/etc of their business. No help. I got out of the contract, and published book 3 but by now, who cared?

I'm getting the final book done now and hope to do some kind of promo to give it some life. 

Also, I'm hoping some were waiting until all books were out.

This genre should sell. Sex trafficking is a not issue. And there my books sit. Bookbub has 900,000 thriller readers. I pray they'll take book 1. If so, I'll make it perma-free and hope to see some success with it.


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## David Thayer (Sep 7, 2012)

I learned from my former agent that "mystery" is a very bad word when marketing to the big boys. "thriller" is a good word. In the post revolutionary world of publishing today I think these terms are diluted by the endless sub categories.
I write crime fiction. What the heck is that?


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I think mysteries/thrillers are very Indie friendly. Especially if you can get them out often, in a series. I have a few friends who write full-time in this genre and do well. My mystery did fairly well when I released it in January, but sales have slowed in recent months because I haven't put a second book out yet in the series. I have the cover ready to go, below, but it will be at least another month or two before that is ready. Hopefully that will lift sales of the first book. My first book, TRUST, doesn't fit neatly into the cozy or regular mystery genre, it straddles them because I wrote the book first and then tried to figure out where it fit. I'm still not really sure! But, I'm trying to be more clear about that in the next book, MOTIVE.

Mysteries/Thrillers has 1.5 million subscribers now....that seems like a lot of opportunity!


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## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

I have a cosy mystery series of 7 novels so far (just started on the 8th at the weekend). I have had virtually no success in the USA with it. I think it is maybe just too British. I have found I almost always have at least one of the series in the 'cosy' sub-genre top 100 but I've never managed to break through to the 'mystery' top 100 even when my 7th one was briefly at the top of the cosies.  Still I am very happy with this level of success, especially as the earlier ones in the series still sell quite well (in the UK) and there is often a new wave of readers working through them, for instance just after Christmas.
They have also sold quite well on Kobo and Apple again mostly not in the USA but in places like Canada, Norway and sometimes Japan.
In my experience (judging from feedback received) men are just as likely as women to read my novels though generally less likely to review them.


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## 67499 (Feb 4, 2013)

VMた said:


> The mystery/thriller audience is NOT lagging. They just aren't buying many indies. There are several reasons. The biggest is that only a few indies are approaching thrillers in anything like a businessman way. They're not writing in series. They're waiting too long between releases. They don't recognize the heavily female digital market. They're not using pricing and promotions sensibly.
> 
> The second reason is that mystery/thriller readers depend more on personal recommendations from friends and less on browsing. This takes time and effort to acquire.


I was shocked and horrified to read this thread because it said my own thriller effort is a dead starter. I'm just completing book 6 in a Donald E. Westlake-style comic crime series featuring a thief who can never hold onto his stealings and two strong female leads who too often must bail him out of catastrophe. I planned to begin kindling the series in October. But now I see I should set fire to my PC and get a job flipping burgers at the beach, instead. Or so I thought until I read VMた's post, which seems to me to cut to the bone of the problem and points the way for all of us to follow. I'll save my box of matches for another day.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

valeriec80 said:


> What I think is the weirdest thing is that Bookbub has the most subscribers in the mystery genre, which would seem to indicate that there's a strong audience for bargain ebooks in mysteries. Yeah? Or is that most people prefer some other genre, and just tick the mystery box because it's the least offensive genre in existence. (I mean, who doesn't like mysteries? Everyone loves mysteries.)


*Um...raises hand* I love thrillers but hate mysteries. Sorry!



> Camille brings up some good points. Now that I think about it, I don't see a lot of new trad pubbed authors writing long-running mystery series. It's mostly people who've had stuff out for a while. However, there's definitely a group of newer female authors writing series mysteries (darker things) like Chelsea Cain and Jennifer Hillier. There are romantic relationships in their books, but they aren't romance, at least not typically. And there's also a lot of interest in those who-is-my-husband-_really_-type thrillers, which I think originates from _Gone Girl_.
> 
> Anyway, I can see this all being in paper and coming from readers who are less voracious. (Although... I don't know. I spent some time hanging out in a couple goodreads groups for thrillers, and those ladies like to _read_.)
> 
> ...


I would say readers of my thrillers are probably 60% female and 40% male judging by the reviews and emails I receive. I recently put up my first romance novel, and received an email last night from one of my male readers of my Mark Taylor series. He said he'd been reluctant to read the romance, but ended up loving it.  He did not leave a review though. lol. (maybe he hasn't left a review on my other books either--I don't recall.) He has beta read for me before, but didn't offer to beta read the romance, but now wants to beta read anything I write. Score!  He's an excellent beta reader, too.

Honestly, I think a lot of the indie thriller writers have been picked up by Thomas&Mercer. I think that's the main reason, and Amazon really pushes their books. I've seen many be part of the KDD.


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## Fishbowl Helmet (Jan 12, 2014)

I am still working my way through the thread, but I thought I'd offer up some reader perspective on things...

My immediate family is filled with readers. Both parents and both of my older siblings are all readers. One sibling's spouse is also a big reader, as is my SO. We read a lot and talk a lot about books. But out of the seven of us, only my folks are huge mystery / thriller fans. I am a fan as well, but not to their extreme. They're the kind of readers who will run out to the store on day of release for a favorite author and buy the book in hardback and devour the thing within 48 hours (usually within 24 hours if we're honest).

Their reading habits go something like this: They sample a book from a writer they haven't read before and if that one book sample doesn't grab them, that's it. No second chances. They don't grab a specific book from a new author (not the first in series, not the latest), they'll just sample any old book if the blurb sounds good or if it's recommended by someone whose tastes they trust. If they enjoy the writing they'll pick up _everything_ that author has written, though they vastly prefer the series character style mystery novels (Harry Bosch, Stone Barrington, Kinsey Millhone, etc). They'll start with the first book featuring the series character they just read and work their way up through to the new release, branching out to anything else by the same author as they go.

That said, they don't really care for ebooks. Sure, if that's all they can get ahold of, they'll buy 'em, but they'd much rather have the physical book in hand than read on a screen. To the point that if you have a same day release of a $2.99 ebook and the $30 hardback, they'll go for the hardback each and every time. So too with older books, they'd much rather get beat up copy from a used bookstore than the ebook. But they're not alone in this, of the seven avid readers I mentioned, I'm the only one who is willing to read ebooks, much less prefer them to physical books.

Despite the view from in here, ebooks are still not as widely accepted as people think or want, or they're only selectively accepted. Meaning early adopters also tend toward particular genre preferences, such as romance or science fiction or fantasy. Some readers are avid, across genre readers, others stick to one or a few genres and devour those. Then demographics comes into things, age, income, education, on and on. If I had to bet, I'd say that the biggest chunk of mystery / thriller readers are older with a bit of disposable income, but still not willing to switch to ebooks after a lifetime of print. To the point where they'd rather spend 10 times the money for a print book instead of an ebook. And who knows about younger readers coming into the genre.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

That's why my books are available in paperback.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Another reader checking in.  Remember I love most you dearly.  Now on thrillers, please keep it thrilling.  I read a poli thriller that for the first 25% was absolutely fabulous then it started sliding downhill.  By 3/4 of the way through, I wanted to hit the author over the head and say can we get some action in here.  What little action there was in the last half of the book was totally and completely predictable.  I finished the book but it was a slog.

My advice as a reader on mystery/thriller/suspense is make me not want to put down the book.  

If your book is good, I probably will not notice the bubbles are gone and the water is cold.  If you are really good, I will let the entire world know you are good in the tub.

(Note I do most of my reading in a bubble bath.)

Too many authors are trying so hard to follow all suggestions that the story gets lost or extremely boring.  If your first book bores me, I will not try you again.
Also cussing for the sake of cussing does not make your book hardcore.  It does not make it hardcore but makes it look like; "I really don't know how to do this so let me drop some f bombs every 3 sentences."  It also makes a book hard to read because again the story gets lost.

My favorite category is mystery/thriller/suspense in almost any subcat.

Oh Artan: since you mentioned it will be a while before you get book 2 out, I will put you on the back burner to simmer and will read you later.

It looks like my kindle exploded in this thread as I have most of you.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

lukas dvorak said:


> I have a couple of quick questions to those who are more knowledgeable:
> 
> 1. What does it mean for a mystery to be "cozy"?
> 
> 2. Not that Stieg Larsson needed much help given the success of the Salander series, but I wonder, as a hypothetical, which genre it would be best to market these books in if he was a new author and just beginning to market those books. They don't seem to really be a hard core police procedural, nor are they hard-core espionage. Most of the story centers on Salandar so they really are more of a drama than either of the other two categories.


I'll answer the second question first, just because my answer is short: Thriller. They are dramatic, but they are intense and grueling.

As for your first question:

The defnition of "cozy" has changed considerably over the years.

It used to just mean Amateur Sleuth, and what is now called the 'traditional mystery.' It was, however, also used as a derrogatory term for anything on the softer or lighter side of the genre (as opposed to hard-boiled and noir). So for a while it came to mean anything light in the genre, including "soft-boiled" detective fiction, etc.

Now, editors in the business often consider "cozy" to be a very very restrictive genre -- almost formulaic. It has to be CLEAN (and I do mean clean in all caps), conservative, small town, with a female sleuth, and a series hook related to women's hobbies or interests. For instance, it might take place in a bookstore, catering business, quilting club, or relate to cats, maybe dogs (but only the "cute" breeds). I've even heard editors (and readers) hold forth on how it can't venture far in character arcs, and romance is kept to bantering. And if it has "chick lit" elements, it's not a cozy, it's chick lit, and if it has historical or any courtroom elements, that makes it an historical mystery or legal thriller.

This, of course, is hogwash: even the editors who subscribe to this publish books which fall outside those super narrow perameters. But there is a contingent who feel very strongly about this. (There are several authors here on this group who have run afoul of such people in rather whacky ways -- including myself.)

To me: I consider it a cozy if it's a comfortable read. Nothing extreme. It may _threaten_ to go outside my comfort zone, but never actually crosses the line. (I wrote a blog post about for a cozy mystery blog festival last year. What Cozy Mystery Means To Me.)

I am, however, old-fashioned in my views of the matter. In the end, like all genres, it's partly defined by what the person doing the defining likes.

Camille


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## Fishbowl Helmet (Jan 12, 2014)

Most of what I was referring to was straight up murder mystery books. I've tried reading the big name thriller writers (a dozen novels from a dozen big name writers) and never once found anything remotely engaging, much less anything appropriate to the label "thriller". As a failed reader of thrillers, my advice to thriller writers would be to put something actually thrilling in the book. Somewhere. But at least have something engaging happen in the first 50 pages. If you need to be told that a thriller novel should be more than a verbose action movie, you probably shouldn't be writing thrillers.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> It looks like my kindle exploded in this thread as I have most of you.


To me, the activity of this thread tells me that mystery is poised for the next break out. Two years ago, it was nearly impossible to get any kind of discussion of mystery going here in the Writer's Cafe.

Camille


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

great thread, valerie. this might be crazy talk, but i wonder if any of it has to do with the massive amount of crime shows on television. Really, some nights it seems that's all there is.  so CSI Mars is on one channel, and CSI Neptune on another, and that's just CSI. i go through channels and see what seems like a new crime thriller popping up every two seconds. maybe people are getting their fix from TV because all they have to do is grab the remote.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Anne Frasier/Theresa Weir said:


> great thread, valerie. this might be crazy talk, but i wonder if any of it has to do with the massive amount of crime shows on television. Really, some nights it seems that's all there is. so CSI Mars is on one channel, and CSI Neptune on another, and that's just CSI. i go through channels and see what seems like a new crime thriller popping up every two seconds. maybe people are getting their fix from TV because all they have to do is grab the remote.


Crime shows on tv:
Rockford Files, Police Woman, Starsky & Hutch, Quincy, Columbo, Charlie's Angels, Magnum PI, Hawaii Five-O, DRAGNET, Adam-12, Emergency (though that one was more medical). I know I have forgotten several. This was 1960's to1970's TV.
These shows are in no particular order. So crime/mysteries have always been popular.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

I'm a mystery reader, but probably not what would fall in the thriller category. I used to read a percentage of those, but as someone said above, the political thrillers, serial killers (who go down in a blazing building or blaze of gunfire but never die) get old. Been there, done that. Don't find them appealing. However, IMO there are good mystery writers out there. I have several favorites I follow, both "regular" and cozy. I mourn the loss of writers like Dick Francis and Tony Hillerman, and I think Francis edged into thrillers rather than straight mystery. (Both of them have offspring trying to make it on the parent's name, and neither one holds a candle to the old man.)

Different people probably have different "success" standards. My cozy dog mystery (which doesn't feature a cute breed). Has been out 4 years and 4 months. I never did any marketing and it's never sold more than 300 a month. I also never wrote the follow ups I originally intended because my romances sold better, so I put my energies into more of those. However, it's occurred to me lately that while my bestselling romances have sold way more, not every one of the romances has. The dog mystery is down to less than 20 a month now, but overall it's sold over 6,000 copies, which is to say it's brought in more than I'd have gotten from a traditional pub for an advance. I'm going to get another dog mystery out this year or else, turn it into a series, do some of the things that work for series marketing and see what happens.

Camille, you are discouraging. Back in 2010 when I started you used to say it took 5 mysteries for a series to find its legs. Now you've upped that to 7? Pfft.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

ellenoc said:


> Camille, you are discouraging. Back in 2010 when I started you used to say it took 5 mysteries for a series to find its legs. Now you've upped that to 7? Pfft.


I think I was trying NOT to be discouraging at the time. (The survey I was quoting said seven was the average number. I myself tend to start reading at five.) I think, though, that for the past 20 years, readers have had to adapt somewhat. So even if you want to start at seven, it's not practical, as a reader.

For me, my most mainstream mystery series takes forever to write a book, so yeah, I try to write with blinders on, and not think about how many more of them I will have to write before it's a series of substance. (I do look forward to writing those books, just not how long it will take.)

And, yeah, your experience is the one I had in mind when I said the breed had to be "cute."

Camille


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

I have a stupid theory as to why a lot of indies shoot themselves in the foot with mystery/suspense - genre hopping.  I don't think this particular audience accepts it.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

CelinaGrace said:


> <waves hand tentatively>
> 
> I'm a full time indie author (just - from July!) writing mysteries and I'm doing very well. To be honest, I hadn't really thought about mystery not being an 'indie friendly' genre - I just wrote the books that I wanted to read. Started off with two psychological thrillers (and would love to write more of these but the mystery series are the breadwinners so I have to concentrate on that for now).
> 
> ...


I agree the market is doing very well for a lot of indies but the OP was talking about indies dominating the Top 100, that seems a bit more elusive. But there are a lot of indie thriller writers that do very well without being in the top 100. Whew.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

EC said:


> I have a stupid theory as to why a lot of indies shoot themselves in the foot with mystery/suspense - genre hopping. I don't think this particular audience accepts it.


I wouldn't call it a stupid theory: That's true of every genre.

The peculiarity about mystery readers is that they kind of treat series as if they are genres: they will read one series by an author, but they are suspicious of other series by the same author. Or at least slow on trying them out. (I myself tend to "save" a second series for reading when I'm done with the first. I haven't yet read any of Agatha Chrstie's Parker Pyne novels, for instance. I'm not reluctant to read them. I'm just saving them for later.)

I would only add that the portion of the mystery audience which is most hostile to genre hopping is also the same audience that insists that cozies have very strict rules. They tend to be the ones most satisfied with the books that traditional publishing puts out, so they have no reason to look to indies.

This matters to indies who write those mainstream, follow-the-rules books in the first place.

But I don't write for that audience, so it's kind of a moot point.

Camille


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> That's a very good point. If our readership needs time to find us (for whatever reason) then that's just more time to get our ducks in a row.
> 
> Camille


To that end I have started the process of having my best selling book translated to Italian and Spanish, and it should be ready in both languages later this month. My next move is French - and I'm keeping German and Japanese to last, cos they will cost me a fortune. Being realistic, it's going to take me a year or more of realistic marshaling of resources to get all the books that I'm prepared to get translated done.

I suppose I'm hoping for some kind of a wave to run through at least one of the markets. As always, it's a calculated gamble.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

EC said:


> To that end I have started the process of having my best selling book translated to Italian and Spanish, and it should be ready in both languages later this month. My next move is French - and I'm keeping German and Japanese to last, cos they will cost me a fortune. Being realistic, it's going to take me a year or more of realistic marshaling of resources to get all the books that I'm prepared to get translated done.
> 
> I suppose I'm hoping for some kind of a wave to run through at least one of the markets. As always, it's a calculated gamble.


Keep us apprised of how that goes! Broadening your market base is always a good idea. I think translations have too large a barrier to entry for most of us. (If you don't speak a language, how can you tell if you're getting good service?)

I'm starting to do more with short fiction again, because the audience that reads my kind of stuff tends to read it. I am also looking at doing audiobooks or podcasting, but that's a ways off.

Camille


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Another reader checking in. Remember I love most you dearly. Now on thrillers, please keep it thrilling. I read a poli thriller that for the first 25% was absolutely fabulous then it started sliding downhill. By 3/4 of the way through, I wanted to hit the author over the head and say can we get some action in here. What little action there was in the last half of the book was totally and completely predictable. I finished the book but it was a slog.
> 
> My advice as a reader on mystery/thriller/suspense is make me not want to put down the book.
> 
> If your book is good, I probably will not notice the bubbles are gone and the water is cold. If you are really good, I will let the entire world know you are good in the tub.


Good advice, although, I for one, like a little breather in a story. For example, this is a movie, but I think it still fits, I loved The Raiders of the Lost Ark. It had great pacing. The second movie, The Temple of Doom, I think it was called, had non-stop action. Literally. I hated it. I like to get to know the characters and I don't feel I can do that if they never experience a 'normal' moment.

Maybe the book you described above was mine as there is a slow down in the middle. My character is in isolation in a prison.  (I started to go into an explanation, but, oops, thread isn't about my book! lol.)



> (Note I do most of my reading in a bubble bath.)
> 
> Too many authors are trying so hard to follow all suggestions that the story gets lost or extremely boring. If your first book bores me, I will not try you again.
> Also cussing for the sake of cussing does not make your book hardcore. It does not make it hardcore but makes it look like; "I really don't know how to do this so let me drop some f bombs every 3 sentences." It also makes a book hard to read because again the story gets lost.


I agree with you there on a personal level. I have one F-bomb in my whole series. lol. And it's by the bad guy. I'm not a prude and have dropped more than my share of F-bombs, but I just don't like writing them. Probably because my dad reads my books and I don't use that word in front of him.

One reason I wasn't a big fan of Under the Dome. I think if you took all of the F bombs out of the book, it would end up a novella.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> I wouldn't call it a stupid theory: That's true of every genre.
> 
> The peculiarity about mystery readers is that they kind of treat series as if they are genres: they will read one series by an author, but they are suspicious of other series by the same author. Or at least slow on trying them out. (I myself tend to "save" a second series for reading when I'm done with the first. I haven't yet read any of Agatha Chrstie's Parker Pyne novels, for instance. I'm not reluctant to read them. I'm just saving them for later.)
> 
> ...


For the reasons you outline, I think this nut is a bit harder than others to crack. I was discussing my WIP with my mentor today, and I mentioned that I may abandon it, which was a shock to said mentor. I'm having a crisis of confidence in regards to this genre, I think I'm out of my depth. I'm looking at months of work - and hundreds of thousands of words by the time I finish the series draft - and I'm asking myself, can I afford to bomb out?

My mentor said that, like you, I should write it for myself. The way I feel, I'm going to have to write the whole series before releasing the first book, as I'm likely to drop the ball if the first one bombs. I think I'd rather the whole series bombed rather than leaving me with a nagging doubt, as I am terrible at picking up the pieces.

Decisions, decisions, oh, woe is me.

ps - and I agree, excellent thread, Valerie.


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## TracyL.Ward (Jun 11, 2013)

Haven't read all replies yet (I will) but I just wanted to say that I write in the mystery-thrillers genre and all three of my books are in the Top 100 for mystery-thrillers- historicals. I'm 100% indie and am very proud of it, though my publisher says Willow Hill House, that's a name I made up.  At the time of this writing my first in the series, Chorus of the Dead, is #15, but in order to rise higher in the ranking I will have to beat out Jeffrey Archer, Stephen King and a few other notables. I am hoping I can do it by the end of August but who knows. It's been a slow and steady climb for me. It really is a tough genre to crack.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> Keep us apprised of how that goes! Broadening your market base is always a good idea. I think translations have too large a barrier to entry for most of us. (If you don't speak a language, how can you tell if you're getting good service?)
> 
> I'm starting to do more with short fiction again, because the audience that reads my kind of stuff tends to read it. I am also looking at doing audiobooks or podcasting, but that's a ways off.
> 
> Camille


Will do - I have it in my head that due if my best-selling book does "make it," then the rest of the books can drip in.

Re ACX - I earned out the investment in my genre in about six weeks - I keep saying this, and I know that people continue to shake their heads in disbelief - the narration rate I pay, up front, is $40 - $50 per hour. I've given up posting on the audio threads as I get the impression people now think I'm the village idiot in this regard.

Oh, well - you can lead a horse to water but........

ps re the service element - I've arranged to get three chapters done at a time in each language. By good fortune I know native Spanish and Italian speakers, and they'll beta read for me. I also know French and German speakers - so come the time. At the moment, although I do know a couple if Japanese people, I don't know them well enough to ask them to read for me.

A cunning idea would be to hand over your work to a local university language course and ask them to beta read for you.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

TracyL.Ward said:


> Haven't read all replies yet (I will) but I just wanted to say that I write in the mystery-thrillers genre and all three of my books are in the Top 100 for mystery-thrillers- historicals. I'm 100% indie and am very proud of it, though my publisher says Willow Hill House, that's a name I made up.  At the time of this writing my first in the series, Chorus of the Dead, is #15, but in order to rise higher in the ranking I will have to beat out Jeffrey Archer, Stephen King and a few other notables. I am hoping I can do it by the end of August but who knows. It's been a slow and steady climb for me. It really is a tough genre to crack.


Excellent - thanks very much for posting, very motivational.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

EC - have you read Hugh Howey's blog post of yesterday? (Or maybe earlier - I got to it via Passive Voice)

He mentions an author at RWA who made her big splash by saving up her books so she could publish five all at once an then one a month later. (Then a new one a month after that.)  Hugh felt that his own success was related to a timing factor like that.

I don't know that we need to time things that way - but I think it does help to think of your career as not really started yet (and therefore it is not necessary to angst about sales and marketing) until you have a few more books out there.

Camille


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

EC said:


> For the reasons you outline, I think this nut is a bit harder than others to crack. I was discussing my WIP with my mentor today, and I mentioned that I may abandon it, which was a shock to said mentor. I'm having a crisis of confidence in regards to this genre, I think I'm out of my depth. I'm looking at months of work - and hundreds of thousands of words by the time I finish the series draft - and I'm asking myself, can I afford to bomb out?
> 
> My mentor said that, like you, I should write it for myself. The way I feel, I'm going to have to write the whole series before releasing the first book, as I'm likely to drop the ball if the first one bombs. I think I'd rather the whole series bombed rather than leaving me with a nagging doubt, as I am terrible at picking up the pieces.
> 
> ...


This is sort of my fear. I was having a great old time writing the zombie serial in my sig until I got to about book four in the series and it was clear that it was not going to be a runaway hit. These last three installments have been painfully difficult to write.

I really fear not having the patience to stick out a mystery series, especially since mine will be hard-boiled with a female protag, lots of swearing (yes, unnecessary swearing. I'll write whole conversations in which every sentence contains the F-word! Ahahahahaha!!!), and a fair amount of gore. Unlike everyone else, I also happen to really like serial killers. If this thread can be trusted, I'm doomed, lol.

However, I think it's just a fact that people who don't like things are more likely to speak up about it than people who do. I doubt that swearing and gore and serial killers are really as unpopular as it might seem.

Still, the question remains. What do I write? I'm through with all my current obligations at the beginning of October. The baby comes in December. I have time for two-ish books before then, and I'd like to start a series. I really want to write this mystery series, but I'm reticent. Sexy conmen is probably safer. Heck, paranormal romance is probably safer. Argh.

Decision, decisions, oh, woe is me, indeed.


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## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

I have three P.I. mysteries published, with a fourth one out later this month. It's always amusing to me to read about authors who boast of writing 5,000+ words a day. I can only dream of doing that and come up with anything I'd want to put my name on. 

My outlines are very detailed, because I want to drop enough clues for the reader to make a plausible guess at who the culprit is... but without making it too obvious and unsatisfying when I reveal them in the end. I generally do about 10 drafts before I hand it over to my beta readers. It typically takes me six months to write a novel and I do it full-time.

I think while there are some very good indie mysteries these days, there are also a surprising number which are either not well written, not well plotted, or derivative of other works. It's not an easy genre to write in, and I think some readers have been disappointed in what they've been seeing.


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## TracyL.Ward (Jun 11, 2013)

I can see how a kind of timing scheme could be beneficial. I released Chorus in July '12, and Dead Silent May '13. Sales were under 50 a month that first year, then with the release of my second book, sales went to 100-200 a month, gently rising with each passing month. I recently released The Dead Among Us (May) and holy guacamole, I'm selling 1000 a month. This month if my average of 40-50 a day holds up I'll sell between 1200 and 1550 this month. But each day I sell just a few more than the last so who knows what August 31 will bring. 

I'm still feeling like a little fish in a big pond but I'm making more money than I have as a stay-at-home mom, and almost as much money as I made a community newspaper journalist 8 years ago.

I didn't realize mystery was a hard nut to crack. I just wanted to write what excited me. They are a trickier novel to write, and it takes me 6 months to write a good first draft. Sometimes my clues are misplaced or too blatant. I add in red herrings and smooth out some of the on-going drama. I find it more finicky than romance (which I have written) and requires a lot more pre-plotting work. Plus there are so many cliches in the genre that I work extra hard to make sure I don't fall into any of those traps.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

First, I'd like to say that this is the best thread I've read here in some time. Second, it confirms a lot of the suspicions I've had about the thriller market.
When I launched my thriller series(s) I knew what I wanted to write having read in the genre since forever. I agree with others who've pointed out the lack of original plots out there. Finding something new is a challenge, but I think it's possible. I get my ideas from the news and try to tie current conflicts, be they political or otherwise, into the story. Readers have told me that they like the "Ripped from the Headlines" approach. 

Couple things I've learned/confirmed (YMMV);

-Thriller readers like longer books. In the neighborhood of 120k from what they are saying.

-They don't mind paying a bit more. Every price increase has resulted in an increase in overall sales. My sweet spot is currently $4.99 and if not for KU I'd likely raise them again when the next book comes out.

-Women read thrillers. (not sure why everyone is surprised by this) If you look at my first book in the series the majority of the reviews (240+) are from women. Same at Goodreads. 

-A hint of romance goes a long way. I have a protagonist who's married, yet fate has him working with his college girlfriend. That little bit of 3-way tension seems to generate a lot of fan mail questions. 

-Sales and charts roller coaster. Yes, the Big 5 authors dominate (even Clancy and Flynn...who are DEAD) and I haven't found a way to stay up there no matter how good my sales are. In other words the slightest drop in sales seems to effect the charts 10x. I have to wonder about the algorithm. The way it fluctuates when compared to other genres is just plain...questionable. 

-Thriller readers forgive experimentation, as long as the main characters remain. I ventured away from political thrillers and into medical thrillers with my third book and sales did not suffer at all. If they like the first book they seem to be in for the whole series. 

-Production takes awhile. Not just the writing but the beta reading and editing as well. I have a great editor, she's in demand and as a result her time is short (we're still working on my backlist). When I hand her a 120k word doorstop I just expect it to take some time to get it back to me. In relation to that I think quality trumps speed with these readers. As mentioned up-thread, these readers are smart, if you try to BS the details you'll hear it from them, and that will be the last book they buy. Research is essential.

There's a bunch more but this is long enough. My wife is giving me the "Get off the internet" look. I'm eager to see what the others here think. Awesome thread.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

@Valerie - lol 

@Camille - I didn't read it, but it looks like the way I'd need to go.  I like the idea of considering that my career is not really started yet, as you put it. If the series ended up being halfway readable at all, ( and I think it would ) I'd take pride in the fact that I'm a big grown up novelist now, possibly irrespective of sales. It is true, though, that every artist appreciates a round of applause. 

Anyway, my mind was swithering towards going ahead and writing the series, then Tracy posted, and I had a look at the best selling authors in genre and said to myself - 

"Aww, man, what am I doing! how am I gonna compete with the Conan Doyle collection?"  

I think I should just retire to a dark corner, write the series, then emerge blinking into the light in a few months. Thinking too much is bad for the brain.


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## TracyL.Ward (Jun 11, 2013)

Don't get me started on reviews... perhaps mystery readers like keeping the mystery by not saying whether or not they enjoyed your book!


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

All right, all right. I wasn't going to say anything, but now I will.

I've written a lot of different genres, but my book Frenzy is a murder mystery and my Helicon fantasy books have a puzzle plot aspect. It's not the only thing going on (they are teen soaps and there's a lot of drama-drama), but it's there, and I have to work it out beforehand, and it often includes disguises and people pretending to be other people and weird magical objects that can affect people in odd ways and a bunch of other stuff that is complicated and requires teasing out and planning.

I do not find this harder to do than my other books, although I will say that research and world-building are more time-consuming than writing a book set in a setting that is familiar to you. But working out a mystery plot? I'm sorry, but I just don't see why this is any more difficult than any other issue you get into writing your outline. I've just as often sat around for hours, taking walks and ruminating over, "But wait, what about her alibi?" as I have over "Crap! If they're locked in, and they're draped in silver chains so they can't shift into werewolves, how do they get out?" It's plot machinations.

I just think that we might be unwittingly insulting other genres by claiming that mysteries or thrillers are sooo hard to write. Especially when there are science fiction writers out there calculating near-the-speed-of-light travel and figuring out how much time would pass on planets that wouldn't pass for travelers, fantasy writers who are creating their own languages and drawing their own maps, historical writers who are researching things as small as the kind of quills and ink used in a time period, erotica writers who are struggling to find a unique way to describe the twentieth orgasm in the same book, to say nothing of the gazillion they've already described in the rest of the series, and the list goes on and on. 

Okay, PSA over.


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## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

valeriec80 said:


> I really fear not having the patience to stick out a mystery series, especially since mine will be hard-boiled with a female protag, lots of swearing (yes, unnecessary swearing. I'll write whole conversations in which every sentence contains the F-word! Ahahahahaha!!!), and a fair amount of gore.


One of the most surprising types of feedback I've received from my readers is that there are a lot of them who like "clean" books. Meaning no explicit sex or gore, and a minimum of swear words -- and this is in the hard-boiled detective category.

One goal I had in this area was to produce books I'd want my 13 year old to read. Yes, he knows all the words, but I'd rather show him a different world then the one he comes across in films and other books these days. That may narrow my audience, and I know some people may find it less-than believable, but I have to trust that good writing will compensate for that....


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

MaryMcDonald said:


> Good advice, although, I for one, like a little breather in a story. For example, this is a movie, but I think it still fits, I loved The Raiders of the Lost Ark. It had great pacing. The second movie, The Temple of Doom, I think it was called, had non-stop action. Literally. I hated it. I like to get to know the characters and I don't feel I can do that if they never experience a 'normal' moment.
> 
> Maybe the book you described above was mine as there is a slow down in the middle. My character is in isolation in a prison.  (I started to go into an explanation, but, oops, thread isn't about my book! lol.)
> 
> ...


Mary,
The book was not yours. I don't mind a lull or a breather but please pick the action back up. The particular book never picked back up.

To the other author that mentioned f-bombs, let's just say the big scene to hook you into the book would have been much better if the guy had not been talking to himself dropping the f-bomb every 3rd sentence and sometimes every 2nd sentence before going outside and finding the victim.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Valerie - I can't go into detail right now (maybe tonight), but I think the issue is different kinds of mystery plot.  Like you I write a variety of kinds of stories, and always include a mystery plot... and some are much easier to write than others.

I think the difference is in what the reader is looking for. Are you writing for serious "fairplay" fans (and I'm using "fairplay" as a genre term here, not just a description).  When I come back I'll tell you a story I heard from William Link, who created a great number of classic mystery TV shows with his parter Bill Levinson. they wrote Ellery Queen and Murder She Wrote - and discovered the two audiences had very different expectations.  MSW was not so beloved of "fairplay" fans - but was liked by so many general audiences that it was the more successful show over all.  EQ on the other hand was utterly beloved by its fans, and was more of a critical and cult hit.

Both are mysteries, both are legit.  One was way harder to write.

Camille


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> The peculiarity about mystery readers is that they kind of treat series as if they are genres: they will read one series by an author, but they are suspicious of other series by the same author. Or at least slow on trying them out.


This is absolutely true. I have two humorous mystery series, both set in Louisiana, and readers that will only read one.



> I would only add that the portion of the mystery audience which is most hostile to genre hopping is also the same audience that insists that cozies have very strict rules. They tend to be the ones most satisfied with the books that traditional publishing puts out, so they have no reason to look to indies.


My books are called cozy but they tend to break the rules of cozy. There's cussing and a ton of action and death and there's a romantic element in one series, and outright romance and some graphic sex in the other. I've had a few complaints from hardcore cozy readers about the sex (which was in the books b/c they're backlist, originally pub bed by Dorchester) and I've had other readers complain about the lack of sex in my new series. But not a ton of complaints on either side. I think they call it cozy because it's a small town and amateur sleuth.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

David Chill said:


> One of the most surprising types of feedback I've received from my readers is that there are a lot of them who like "clean" books. Meaning no explicit sex or gore, and a minimum of swear words -- and this is in the hard-boiled detective category.
> 
> One goal I had in this area was to produce books I'd want my 13 year old to read. Yes, he knows all the words, but I'd rather show him a different world then the one he comes across in films and other books these days. That may narrow my audience, and I know some people may find it less-than believable, but I have to trust that good writing will compensate for that....


Yes, that's a good thing if you write so that intelligent tweens who are looking for something more sophisticated can read your book, but I think there is another reason why you get this reaction from hard-boiled and noir readers... actually, two reasons:

1.) The greatest books of the genre were written at a time when you used hard detail sparingly. Neither Chandler nor Hammett used the f-bomb every sentence, nor went into graphic detail -- and yet both were very gritty and hard edged, and could be shocking.

2.) A big portion of the readership loves hard-boilded and noir movies, which were created under the Production Code. It feels like a different genre when you go all Tarantino on them. (And they might like Tarantino, but they think of it as a different genre.)

Camille


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## Robert A Michael (Apr 30, 2012)

Great thread everyone. Love the discussion.

@ David Chill: I know what you mean. I do the same. It is hard sometimes. I actually had feedback from my brother-in-law who is a minister. He said:"I don't know, Robert, it just seems unrealistic that no one cusses in your book." I looked across the table at him and thought, _Really?!_ I am not naive. I have worked in the roofing industry and people use rough language, make off-color jokes, speak disrespectfully about ethnic groups, individuals of different sexual orientation, and religious beliefs. I come in contact with dozens of people every day and those speaking in that manner are maybe one out of twenty. Shouldn't the dialogue in our books reflect that same ratio? Granted, I live in the Bible Belt, but I am from back east, and the ratio is still not more than 10%. However, I have to ask myself about the characters in my book. Would they say something like this in this spot? Is it appropriate both from a circumstantial perspective and a character perspective? If it does, then the word stays. I have found that I need less than three words like that per book and most times none at all.

As far as the genres of mystery and thriller, I have to say I am personally stumped. However, I have noted that one thing that impacts the "breaking in" process is what someone mentioned earlier. Readers in these genres tend to stick to known quantities. As long as Patterson continues publishing at 1 book a month and others in the genre expand their back lists, I think readers will tend to continue to elevate those who are already successful. There is a tipping point and once it spills over into discovering new authors--whether trade, hybrid, or indie--I think the readers of these genres will continue that loyalty.

We tend to forget that many of these authors were relatively unknown for long periods before being "discovered." I have friends who will share their Lee Child paperbacks with me and devour my copies, but never crack open one of my thrillers. They know me and love me, but their comfort level is safety in familiarity. Their loyalty has not come around to include me. Yet. I see my greater audience in the same way. Someday. This is not a get-rich scheme. This is put-dinner-on-the-table money. This is nest-egg-retirement stuff.

With that said, I think there is wisdom in the advice of treating this like a business. It is just as important to research our market and potential readership as it is to research the setting or technical hardware used in our story.

I have to admit that I have been tempted of late to genre hop out of thriller. I played around with the idea with the Wayward Pine Kindle Worlds and a short fantasy. I just keep telling myself that I need to stick to it (I am publishing book 6 in my series tonight and am at the half-way point of book 7). I have some other ideas to push readers toward the new site I am developing and hope that strategy will develop a wider readership. Time (and money) will tell.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Valerie - I can't go into detail right now (maybe tonight), but I think the issue is different kinds of mystery plot. Like you I write a variety of kinds of stories, and always include a mystery plot... and some are much easier to write than others.
> 
> I think the difference is in what the reader is looking for. Are you writing for serious "fairplay" fans (and I'm using "fairplay" as a genre term here, not just a description). When I come back I'll tell you a story I heard from William Link, who created a great number of classic mystery TV shows with his parter Bill Levinson. they wrote Ellery Queen and Murder She Wrote - and discovered the two audiences had very different expectations. MSW was not so beloved of "fairplay" fans - but was liked by so many general audiences that it was the more successful show over all. EQ on the other hand was utterly beloved by its fans, and was more of a critical and cult hit.
> 
> ...


To be clear, I'm not saying that mysteries or thrillers aren't difficult or that different genres don't present various challenges to different writers.

I do think that all challenges get easier with practice.

And I think I get what you're saying, in that there are different audiences for different kinds of stories. I'll admit that I'm always the person who prefers the emotional impact of a story rather than the nitty gritty geek stuff. I like _Star Wars_ better than _Star Trek_, and when I do like Star _Trek_, it's not about whether someone actually wrote down the Klingon language or if warp speed is based in science, but because I'm crushed or elated or thrilled. So, yeah, I'm probably never going to write a super-complicated puzzle plot in which that is the entire purpose of the book, and the characters are all secondary. I'm always going to use the mystery plot to prop up my characters and to get them into the most excruciating situation that I possibly can, so that I can amp up the emotional carnage. Because I read and watch for emotional carnage. That's my drug.

Anyway, you may be right that means that I don't understand certain kinds of difficulty in plotting.

I only wrote what I did because we writers tend to be a sensitive lot. And I can see it being an upsetting sort of thing for us to start a my-genre-is-harder-to-write-than-yours discussion. I just don't think we should go there. So, with the caveat of respect for all writers, I'll grant that I have never written a hardcore intricate, twisty plot, and I probably would have a hard time doing it.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

valeriec80 said:


> I really fear not having the patience to stick out a mystery series, especially since mine will be hard-boiled with a female protag, lots of swearing (yes, unnecessary swearing. I'll write whole conversations in which every sentence contains the F-word! Ahahahahaha!!!), and a fair amount of gore. Unlike everyone else, I also happen to really like serial killers. If this thread can be trusted, I'm doomed, lol.
> 
> However, I think it's just a fact that people who don't like things are more likely to speak up about it than people who do. I doubt that swearing and gore and serial killers are really as unpopular as it might seem.
> 
> ...


I don't think you are doomed. I would expect that from a serial killer. They're not nice people. Their manners are atrocious. Their behavior socially unacceptable. I love a good serial killer!

What I don't like is gore for the sake of gore, vulgarity for the sake of vulgarity. If it doesn't lend anything to the story, I find it irritating.

A good example of a story I found riveting would be Silence of the Lambs. There was a lot of gore and plenty of cussing, but it fit. It served a purpose. It's a great example of what I would consider just the right mix of blood and foul language. 

An example of a story I never finished reading because the language seemed superfluous was Gone Girl. I found the language distracting, unnecessary, and it made it hard for me to care about the main characters. That's a problem. Readers really need to care about the main character, even if it's to dislike them--there needs to be some kind of connection. I could not connect with these characters.

Oh, and victims--they should be likeable. Readers want to feel badly for the people who get hacked to pieces. When a victim is so vile that I find myself wanting to kill them, myself--not a good plot line.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

vlmain said:


> An example of a story I never finished reading because the language seemed superfluous was Gone Girl. I found the language distracting, unnecessary, and it made it hard for me to care about the main characters. That's a problem. Readers really need to care about the main character, even if it's to dislike them--there needs to be some kind of connection. I could not connect with these characters.


Oh yes this. Gone Girl was one of the few books I could not finish. Its quite rare for me. Language, I don't care as much, but like you I had issues with the characters. I just didn't give a darn about them one way or another and just couldn't take it anymore. There was just nothing there for me. Not even a love to hate, just nothing. I can't continue reading if I don't care about anyone or anything at all.

I am going to be honest here and say that I don't really know the the difference between mystery, suspense and thriller. I just don't. Maybe it it was pointed out, but not sure. I know that when I hear the term cozy, I run the other way as I expect knitting ladies. Shudders. But reading some posts here that is not always true, so I just don't know. I know I love historical mysteries and mysteries with some other element. Like I am reading a series by a indy author now, Terri Reid and those are paranormal mysteries. I would like to find more of those. In this case its with ghosts. But I am flexible about the paranormal part. 

I know I don't like nasty sexually based serial killer stuff. Read many of those years ago. Are those thrillers? I know I like romantic suspense or suspense with romantic elements, but again, I am not sure when its mystery, thriller or suspense. Its a bit confusing for me those 3 genres. Maybe I am not the only confused reader out there.


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## Brendan Mackey (Feb 8, 2014)

Q. Why aren't there more Indies in the Mystery/Thriller Top 100?
A. Because they're saving room for me.

That's what you gotta think.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

vlmain said:


> Oh, and victims--they should be likeable. Readers want to feel badly for the people who get hacked to pieces. When a victim is so vile that I find myself wanting to kill them, myself--not a good plot line.


Oh, come on! _Ten Little Indians _and its various ripoffs? You don't like the story where a bunch of nasty people are locked up on an island/boat/house in a snow storm/etc. and are picked off one by one? Man, I love that crap. Watching characters who deserve to die being killed off is just satisfying in a very primal way.

Mmm. Is it disturbing to admit that?

Anyway, it all depends on the story, of course. If you want people to sympathize with your victims and hate your killer, then make the victims sympathetic. If you want people on the side of the killer, do the opposite. You mentioned _Silence of the Lambs_. One of the things that's interesting about Hannibal Lecter is that he tends to kill very unlikeable people, so we're given a kind of tacit approval to go ahead and root for him, even though he's monstrous. By contrast, Buffalo Bill kills innocent women, and so we just _hate_ him. I often think that's why _Lambs_ was the first one to break out. Like, if you read _Red Dragon_, which is the first book that Lecter shows up in, the killer is much more ambiguous. He forms this relationship with a woman, and it seems like he wants to stop so that he can be with her, but he can't excise the monster within him. It's sort of tragic, actually... (Utterly unrealistic, of course. Actual serial killers aren't like that, but it made for interesting reading).

I'm really digressing off the main point here, aren't I?

Sorry.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

One of my favorite series was Dexter, where you actually root for the serial killer who only kills the bad guys.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Every genre does have harder-to-write kinds of stories within it.

But keep in mind that there are some things that are just plain harder to write.

Do you know the old story about the dying actor? (Note, this story is best told by Peter O'Toole, or someone doing a dead-on imitation of him.) A legendary Shakespearean actor lay dying, lingering in deep pain for a long time. And one of his visitors held his hand and asked him with great sympathy:

"Is it hard, dying like this?"

"Dying is easy," said the great actor. "_Comedy_ is hard."

It's funny because it's true. Comedy is the hardest kind of performance, and it is the hardest thing to write. The reason is because there is no margin for error. Miss a small detail, screw up the timing, and the whole thing fails in a way that drama or adventure never does.

I was going to write something longer here about what makes some kinds of mystery writing like comedy, but I think I'll take some time and write it as a blog post. I'm too tired to do it justice. I do have another old post on my blog (I write about mystery a lot on my blog) which kinda gives the idea. It talks about a technique that every kind of writer and genre can use, but it happens to be one that mystery demands in spades. Twisting Your Contrivances. The short version of what I was going to write here is: I generally can pick the killer off the book jacket with just about any mystery. I try to write mysteries which can be enjoyed by people like me, AND beginning mystery readers.

The good news is: Like you mentioned, this kind of mystery (just like writing and performing comedy) is something you get much better at with practice.

*Atunah*: re running the other way from cozies -- you may be right more often than not these days. Reclaiming the cozy may be a lost cause. I'm just not ready to give up yet.

*Valerie and vlmain*: I have to admit, I prefer it when baddies get killed. However, victims are like any other character, if they are not likeable, don't expect me to feel bad when they die. (That's actually kind of the purpose of having a dislikeable villain in a cozy -- so you don't have to mourn.)

On the other hand, I do like it when the hero pauses to think about what he or she is doing and why. I think about the famous speech in Clint Eastwood's UNFORGIVEN -- when someone said the badguys they killed "had it coming," and the main character says "It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have." It's BAD to kill them, even if they did have it coming. I like a mystery where a detective is investigating the killing of a two-bit criminal, and feels honor-bound to give him justice, even if he was bad.

What I don't like is when the detective in a cozy or domestic mystery does not have respect for death. (I stopped reading Charlotte MacLeod completely when Sarah Kelling stumbled on a body and just seemed put out about it. "Not again!")

Camille


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Camille: I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

Blanket statements like this:



daringnovelist said:


> But keep in mind that there are some things that are just plain harder to write.


Just too absolute for me.

To be contradictory, though, I'll say that the only absolute I believe is that there are no absolutes.

But we're splitting hairs, really, I think. Sometimes I get very on-the-nose about things, and I just can't let things go, but this time, I am. Seriously. (No, really. I swear.) Besides, the point we're quibbling over doesn't really have much to do with why indies aren't in the Top 100.

Because, let's be honest. Since when did a mainstream audience ever really want something to be complicated, original, and difficult? This is not meant to be a dig at the human race. I just think there's a sort of equalizing effect that mass success has on stuff, and it tends to water things down a bit. The sharpest stuff never gets to the top. It's got to be bit blunted to file off the edges that might offend certain people. Just because most people are different, and so--to get a hit--you have to kind of boil things down to commonalities to get everyone on board. That's all.

So, we can't say that indies aren't in the Top 100 because, by and large, indies are lazy writers who only want to write easy stories and that if they'd just get off their bums and try to plot out some difficult mysteries, then indies would swarm the charts.

And anyway, I don't think you've been arguing that. You've been saying all along that you aren't necessarily talking about top-of-the-charts books.

Plus, maybe I can grant that the more narrow you make your subject, the more razor sharp you can make your focus, and the closer you can get to actual absolutes.

I should probably go to bed. I think I'm talking myself in circles.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I know that when I hear the term cozy, I run the other way as I expect knitting ladies. Shudders. But reading some posts here that is not always true, so I just don't know. I know I love historical mysteries and mysteries with some other element. Like I am reading a series by a indy author now, Terri Reid and those are paranormal mysteries. I would like to find more of those. In this case its with ghosts. But I am flexible about the paranormal part.


My straight indie series is called "cozy" but I call it "Lara Croft goes to the bayou."


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

valeriec80 said:


> Anyway, it all depends on the story, of course. If you want people to sympathize with your victims and hate your killer, then make the victims sympathetic. If you want people on the side of the killer, do the opposite. You mentioned _Silence of the Lambs_. One of the things that's interesting about Hannibal Lecter is that he tends to kill very unlikeable people, so we're given a kind of tacit approval to go ahead and root for him, even though he's monstrous. By contrast, Buffalo Bill kills innocent women, and so we just _hate_ him.


Precisely. That's what made the story brilliant. The writer did an exceptional job of making us loathe one but not the other. Lecter was a monster, yet he had some redeeming qualities. Buffalo Bill had few redeeming qualities, if any. As you pointed out, their victims were different, too, and their characters were written appropriately.

The issue, for me, is when I am supposed to feel badly for a victim the writer has given me no reason to like.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

maryannaevans said:


> I've been traditionally published in mystery for about ten years, although not with a Big Five publisher. (My publisher is Poisoned Pen Press, one of the largest mystery publishers outside the big guys, maybe the biggest.) I marketed my heart out for those books and I'm told I do well for a mid-list mystery author, but y'all. It ain't enough to pay the bills. I've got beautiful reviews and lovely awards, but I have found mystery sales hard to crack, even with my publisher's support.
> 
> I have independently published one thriller, one short story collection, a how-to-write novels book, and six short stories. They sell a few copies, but they don't crack the Top 100 unless it's the free list. I had some very successful BookBub fueled giveaways, but the sales levels never stuck. I mean, they never stuck _at all_. Sales lag even behind what I might have expected if I just sold to a goodly portion of the readers of my PPP books. Hey, maybe they're not good books--it's possible--but it really seems like Amazon's algorithms may be a little harder on mystery and thriller writers for some weird reason.


I agree with every single word Mary Anna says.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

valeriec80 said:


> Since when did a mainstream audience ever really want something to be complicated, original, and difficult?


Yes, yes, yes -- you're beginning to get it!

You're talking about the mainstream audience -- that's a separate audience from the genre audience. And it's a separate thing from _each_ genre audience. It's not all equal -- each genre has it's own issues and limitations. And writing certain things for one audience is going to be much easier or harder than writing it for another.

And it is much easier to write mystery for the mainstream audience as opposed to the traditional mystery audience. I've written the whole spectrum -- easy and hard. You can't just dismiss it with a little wave of the hand, when people say what they are writing is harder than usual, just because you've never experienced that.

The really ironic thing here, is that mystery was the biggest genre -- the biggest seller for decades -- when it was complicated and difficult. Of course, one of the reasons it was difficult to write is because writers then wanted to please both the mainstream audience AND the dedicated mystery puzzle reader. The popularity of the genre shrank when publishers insisted on going mainstream (because it was easier).

It's a real slap in the face when you dismiss that extra effort as nothing -- for me as a reader and a writer. It's as if you said, "Hey, mystery writing is easy if you just write for the non-genre audience. Ditch the hard-core mystery readers."

If anything is a blanket statement, it's the idea that nothing can possibly be harder than anything else.

That's the actual and only point I've been discussing with you here. I don't really care that there are other things I could write that are easier, and I realize you didn't mean to be dismissive. Everything else I've said is to help you with the context.

Camille


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

I think  they key to what Mary Anna says is this: 

I have independently published one thriller, one short story collection, a how-to-write novels book, and six short stories.

So she's published ONE thing that might sell to her main audience.  ONE.  And then some short stories.

Yeah, that wouldn't work in romance, either.

I don't find writing humor all that hard.  One of the first things I did that saw the light of day was pure satire, and I dashed it off in two days, and people loved it.  SELLING humor is incredibly hard in some genres right now.  Despite the Sookie Stackhouse books, humor--and I mean good humor, humor that sneaks up on people and makes them laugh despite themselves--is a hard sell in paranormal.  I sell on angst.  Even my angstiest books have scenes that people think are hilarious, though, and those, unfortunately, are just regarded as a bonus.


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## TracyL.Ward (Jun 11, 2013)

Okay Valeriec80, I see your point. I write historical mysteries and I find it hard. I'm not saying anything about anyone else. Just me and my experience. I find it hard with two kids, a husband, a house, a recent move and a dearly loved grandmother slowly slipping into dementia. 

Some of us are in our writing prime and can just pop those literary beauties out like... I don't know, (it's late, I'm tired and I'm out of similes). 

I'm not one of these people. I write slow, methodical. I get stuck a few chapters in and need to find out what's not working so far before I can say, "ah, yes, now I've got it." During this time of pondering I am not writing but thinking. Thinking as I take my kids to competitive swim training or soccer practice. Thinking as I do dishes or clean the toilet. I think, then I write. It's just how I do it but I know others force themselves to write, write, write. 

I'm a trained journalist so I know how to write to deadline. I know how to block out a crazy busy newsroom with phones ringing non-stop and constant interruptions. In fact if it wasn't for this training I wouldn't be able to get one hundred words a day let alone 1000. Judgement goes both ways. I am tired of people on K-boards telling me I don't write fast enough and that's why my sales are slow (I don't think they are but it's kboards so everyone has an opinion). 

In no way did I mean that mysteries are hard and everyone else has it easy. I find mysteries hard compared to other genres I have tried. I like writing mysteries and it's worth the fight to get noticed. That's all I meant. No more, no less.


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

I find plotting mysteries hard, but I also find plotting sci-fi time travel paradoxes hard. Anything plot intensive and technical is going to be harder.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Steven Hardesty said:


> I was shocked and horrified to read this thread because it said my own thriller effort is a dead starter. I'm just completing book 6 in a Donald E. Westlake-style comic crime series featuring a thief who can never hold onto his stealings and two strong female leads who too often must bail him out of catastrophe. I planned to begin kindling the series in October. But now I see I should set fire to my PC and get a job flipping burgers at the beach, instead. Or so I thought until I read VMた's post, which seems to me to cut to the bone of the problem and points the way for all of us to follow. I'll save my box of matches for another day.


I don't think anybody here has said that writing in the genre is a dead-starter. We're just saying it's a slower start, than, say Romance -- and that our genre is at an earlier spot in the growth phase. And that actually means we may have more upside.

Also, I really don't know where the market for comic crime is -- but I do know that funny premises are always attractive to readers. The tricky part is whether you hit the particular taste of the readers you get.

Camille


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Randall Wood said:


> -Thriller readers like longer books. In the neighborhood of 120k from what they are saying.


Readers who like your stuff will ALWAYS say it's too short. Most commercial thrillers and mysteries--Clancy, Crichton, and Grisham aside--are more like 70k. A shorter book can be a good trade off for more exposure.



Randall Wood said:


> -Sales and charts roller coaster. Yes, the Big 5 authors dominate (even Clancy and Flynn...who are DEAD) and I haven't found a way to stay up there no matter how good my sales are. In other words the slightest drop in sales seems to effect the charts 10x. I have to wonder about the algorithm. The way it fluctuates when compared to other genres is just plain...questionable.


All the genres with really high sales are like this. I almost never crack top 100 in my main genre, and when I do, it's for like two days. My readers aren't finding me through the HNR lists, because I can't make them yet. 

Want a difficult plot? I've got four major plot threads in my current WIP arc, and the MAIN PLOT is as SECRET from the characters until 5/6ths of the way through the arc!!! Yeah. Try writing something tightly plotted in which the main characters don't even know what the plot is or that it's happening.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

A refresher course:

http://russellblake.com/how-to-sell-loads-of-books/

It you're not doing this, then you can't claim it's the genre. I am doing this in my genre (and a few more things, too). It works.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

VMた said:


> I think they key to what Mary Anna says is this:
> 
> I have independently published one thriller, one short story collection, a how-to-write novels book, and six short stories.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that was my thought too -- but I hear the pain. It sounds like her main writing is caught up in traditional publishing contracts. (A "not bad for midlist" level of sales would pay the bills in self-publishing.)



jdcore said:


> I find plotting mysteries hard, but I also find plotting sci-fi time travel paradoxes hard. Anything plot intensive and technical is going to be harder.


And you write real _puzzle_ mysteries. And yeah, sf paradoxes are a good comparison. And hard science speculative sf.

I write three kinds of mystery:

When I write adventure with a mystery (but not really a puzzle) driving the action, all I have to do figure out where all my characters are at the opening of the story, and then just let 'er go. It doesn't really matter if the audience guesses or not what's going on.

When I write my mystery westerns, they fall more into the pulp style (like the "Maverick" model mentioned near the beginning of the thread), and are still pretty straight-forward -- but I do have to spend a little more thought on the clues and the different theories that might go through the audience's head. I mean, they are whodunnits, and the focus is the puzzle -- but even if the audience figures it out, there is still the comic adventure to keep the reader interested. It's not so vital to the nature of the story.

When I write my Starling and Marquette books (the "Man Who" series) it's the kind of book where some of the readers are doing serious puzzle solving -- but some of the readers aren't even thinking about the puzzle at all. Those are books that I have to think about every level of mystery reader, and try to keep it satisfying for them all. (And yes, I put in 'easter eggs' for the advanced reader sometimes -- subtle phrasings or references that are an additional level of clue, that might only be noticed by those who have figured it out early on.)

But mostly, it's just that that particular series is really hard to write. I mean, I like to do at least a little multi-layered Hitchcock style clues on all of my books. That series, however, also has some tricky-to-write character elements -- which are the thing that make it not just a puzzle mystery.

Camille


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Let's remember that you don't have to have ANYTHING in the Top 100 to make a good living at this if that's something you want to do. You do need a backlist that sells pretty steadily.  Let me tell you, managing to be in the Top 100 if you write HF like I have (and am switching to historical mysteries) is tough, tough, tough. I still pay the mortgage, etc with my sales, so...keep things in proportion. You don't have to be  Janet Evanovich or whoever.

ETA: In that spectrum of mysteries, I can't even figure out where hardboiled are. I think none of the above. lol


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Vector usually indicates ***humorous cozy.***  Not always--I wouldn't expect it with Camille's, for instance--but usually.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

valeriec80 said:


> Oh, come on! _Ten Little Indians _and its various ripoffs? You don't like the story where a bunch of nasty people are locked up on an island/boat/house in a snow storm/etc. and are picked off one by one? Man, I love that crap. Watching characters who deserve to die being killed off is just satisfying in a very primal way.
> 
> Mmm. Is it disturbing to admit that?
> 
> ...


Personally, I love a good comeuppance tale. That's one of the things I like about cozies, actually - in every one I've ever read, the first victim always had it coming.

The funny thing is, the victims don't even have to be unlikeable, as long as the deaths are interesting. Just look at all the Final Destination movies.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

TattooedWriter said:


> Totally agree about not having to have anything in the Top 100 to make a living.
> 
> I have a question about cozy mystery covers. A lot of the cozy mysteries have vector art or cartoon covers. Is this now the established norm for this genre? Do they attract readers more than, say, a photo cover?


They are popular with cozies. They make it clear at a glance that the mystery is 'cozy' vs more traditional. They don't have to be humorous, but many are.


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

In the last few months I've read Denise Grover Swank's entire Rose Gardner mystery series. Cozy, humorous at times, romance triangle that sets the characters up in complicated situations that adds a lot of depth to the story. LOVE them. Big, big sellers.

Also, I don't know if she's on here, but Vanessa Gray Bartal has had pretty good success with her Lacy Steele cozy mysteries (www.amazon.com/Vanessa-Gray-Bartal/e/B004S7Q2DK/). She grew up next door to me.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

TattooedWriter said:


> Totally agree about not having to have anything in the Top 100 to make a living.
> 
> I have a question about cozy mystery covers. A lot of the cozy mysteries have vector art or cartoon covers. Is this now the established norm for this genre? Do they attract readers more than, say, a photo cover?


Yes. I've never seen a photo cover from trad pub. And I can usually tell at a glance if it's a trad pub or self pub cozy just from the cover even if the self pub cover is professionally done.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

artan said:


> Yes. I've never seen a photo cover from trad pub. And I can usually tell at a glance if it's a trad pub or self pub cozy just from the cover even if the self pub cover is professionally done.


I'm indie now, but I still use the cover artist I had when I was trade published. That's how I licensed use of my original covers from my backlist.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I'm indie now, but I still use the cover artist I had when I was trade published. That's how I licensed use of my original covers from my backlist.


It's the font of the title in this case.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

TattooedWriter said:


> Interesting. A lot of the cozies I read had photo covers. They were published by Collins Crime and had white or black backgrounds and photos of objects. For example, I remember my copy of William G Tapply's "Dead Meat" has a photo of a fish and fishing lures on a white background.
> 
> Maybe they were the UK versions.
> 
> ...


This book wouldn't be consider a cozy for me. Usually the cozies are lighter mysteries featuring a female amateur like Jana DeLeon's books. The book you linked to reminds me of more serious mysteries that are similar to Sue Grafton's novels (which I also love).


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

TattooedWriter said:


> OK, I've done a little research and understand my confusion over photo covers. All the mysteries I read were published by the Collins Crime Club in the UK and they had photo covers. So to me, mystery = photo cover because that was what I always saw on the books I read.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


Consider checking out the cozy lists on Goodreads if you want to study the covers. I noticed in the last couple of years a lot of the covers are going even simpler probably because of the thumbnail size image online. A image or two, similar font family for authors in the same pub, and colored background.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

artan said:


> Consider checking out the cozy lists on Goodreads if you want to study the covers. I noticed in the last couple of years a lot of the covers are going even simpler probably because of the thumbnail size image online. A image or two, similar font family for authors in the same pub, and colored background.


Stupid question here: how do you find things like that on Goodreads? I've tried and tried but still have no idea how to navigate that site.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Ah. That was easy.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> Stupid question here: how do you find things like that on Goodreads? I've tried and tried but still have no idea how to navigate that site.


Shameless self promo plug here: I put book on a lot of the cozy lists. It's like the white rabbit in Alice in Wonderland. I read enough mysteries to know which ones are on lists so I just hop from list to list voting and adding my book. This is the only part of my interaction on Goodreads that is mercenary. Mainly I use it as a reader to keep track of my books. I used to discuss books, but now I'm afraid of trolls damaging my one book so I stay out of them. And I used to have no problems with giving out 1 or 2 star ratings, but now I put the book on my can't finish shelf even if I finished it (once again afraid of trolls).


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

artan said:


> Shameless self promo plug here: I put book on a lot of the cozy lists. It's like the white rabbit in Alice in Wonderland. I read enough mysteries to know which ones are on lists so I just hop from list to list voting and adding my book. This is the only part of my interaction on Goodreads that is mercenary.


How do the lists work? Can anyone add a book to any list?


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## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> Stupid question here: how do you find things like that on Goodreads? I've tried and tried but still have no idea how to navigate that site.


Not a stupid question at all. Goodreads is a useful website, but they have a horrible navigation. When I find an area I like, I bookmark it. Otherwise I may never find it again. Some sites do this on purpose, thinking the user will discover new areas they didn't know existed. It's true, but it leads to an incredible level of frustration if you go on the site for a particular purpose.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Hi again.  It is just me.  I noticed a few people commenting about others opinions.  Well here is my best advice for babies and books.
Like babies books require 3 things, food (words), shelter (genre) and clothing (covers).
Now you as a parent (writer) need to decide for yourself how best to feed (write) the book.  You can feed the baby breastmilk (10,000 words), formula (anywhere from 1,000 to 9,999 words), or assorted other milks (write what you can, when you can).  This is up to you and your doctor (publisher or self as the case may be).    
It is also up to you when to start the baby on solid foods (publish the book).  You can feed the baby whatever you like.  You can go with only organic chickpeas (Kindle Select) or you can feed the baby whatever you would like (KDP, Nook Press, iTunes, GooglePlay, etc.) You can also decide that the baby cannot have certain foods (like Google Play), so just do not use those foods.
Now on to shelter, it is entirely up to you where to live (categorize your books).  Whether it is a tent, a mansion or something in between.(whatever genre you feel fits.)  This is entirely up to you.  Though do make sure it is livable. (don't accidently put a text book in humor or some other equally crazy combination)

Now on to clothing (covers), dress the baby (book) according to the weather (category).  If the baby is turning blue and shivering put more clothes (different cover) on him.  If the baby is turning beet red and sweating, take some clothes off (change the cover to be more appropriate).  

Note, most men in some genres do not need shirts and it is appropriate for them to run around half naked.

What this all boils down to is it is your baby (book) do what you think is best.  Listen to all the advice, take what you need and leave the rest for someone else.


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## maryannaevans (Apr 10, 2010)

> I think they key to what Mary Anna says is this:
> 
> I have independently published one thriller, one short story collection, a how-to-write novels book, and six short stories.
> 
> So she's published ONE thing that might sell to her main audience. ONE. And then some short stories.


I kinda figured this out, but I can't keep writing the traditionally published Faye Longchamp mysteries--which do pay *some* bills and get me a lot of exposure--and another series to indie publish. I've recently started a new promotional effort that is showing some promise. My publisher has marked the first of the Faye books down to $0.99 and the rest of the series is marked down from $6.99 to $4.99. I've been running ads on Facebook and Goodreads that highlight the $0.99 loss leader and the fact that the whole series is on sale. Then I'm running ads for the indie books on the same sites. I'm hoping that the kind of loyal reader who loves series will read all eight of the Faye books, which should more than pay for the ads, and some of them will bleed over to the indie books, too.

I've been doing this for about a month, and I'm seeing the individual books climb steadily in rank. My author ranking is also coming up, which seems to mean nothing but that all my books are selling better. If this continues, it would be very nice, but none of the books is even knocking on the door of the Top 100. When I have a new book, it will go up to maybe 200 and stall, so again...dang that algorithm. Just a bit more boost would be so nice. LOL

I'm enjoying the insights on this thread. Thanks.


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## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

I agree with what Randall Wood says below, in virtually every particular; it matches my own experience and observations:



Randall Wood said:


> First, I'd like to say that this is the best thread I've read here in some time. Second, it confirms a lot of the suspicions I've had about the thriller market.
> 
> When I launched my thriller series(s) I knew what I wanted to write having read in the genre since forever. I agree with others who've pointed out the lack of original plots out there. Finding something new is a challenge, but I think it's possible. I get my ideas from the news and try to tie current conflicts, be they political or otherwise, into the story. Readers have told me that they like the "Ripped from the Headlines" approach.
> 
> ...


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

I have to say, despite the potentially depressing realization that the genre I love to read and write is lagging, this thread has encouraged me immeasurably. It's put into words vague fears that had been plaguing me and the posts have helped clarify my thoughts on whether this whole self-pubbing thing is working for me or not. And it is--working for me, I mean. It truly helps to know that the things that have been increasingly frustrating me are probably genre-specific issues and not just because I completely suck.    I'm also encouraged that this thread has gotten as much attention that it has because I feel that's a good omen for the tide to turn.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> How do the lists work? Can anyone add a book to any list?


Yep. You can even create your own. I took a goodreads for author class with my writing group and the instructor said this is a good way to market your book without the soapbox shout out that readers find annoying. If you make your own list, it's a good idea to build it around the same themes as your book.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Hi again. It is just me. I noticed a few people commenting about others opinions. Well here is my best advice for babies and books.
> 
> What this all boils down to is it is your baby (book) do what you think is best. Listen to all the advice, take what you need and leave the rest for someone else.


If anyone was offended by my discussion of covers earlier, I apologized. I didn't mean to diss anyone's cover. I thought we were talking about the look and feel of trad pub's branding of the cozy genre and I was giving my opinion as a long time reader of the genre.


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## maryannaevans (Apr 10, 2010)

Well, whaddaya know?  It apparently doesn't take much to crack the Kindle Short Reads lists. I ran a Goodreads ad and "Land of the Flowers" just charted:

#73 in Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > 45 minutes (22-32 pages) > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense

I can tell you that it did not take many recent sales to hit this exalted level.  That story has enjoyed a few moderate sales peaks in the distant past after a KDP Select free run, so that may have helped to whatever extent the algorithm looks at history, but it's just not a big seller.


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## Scottish Lass (Oct 10, 2013)

Thank you to the OP for starting this thread, I'm really finding it interesting. 
I read in quite a lot of different genres, and crime/thriller is one of my favourites. 

What I wanted to add is to pick up on something that's been briefly mentioned by a couple of people - ACX and audiobooks.

I listen to 2-3 audiobooks a month each winter, and they are nearly all crime/mystery, as there are usually less characters to keep track of in my head (compared to fantasy, for example) from day to day. As others have said, if I find an author I like I'll download more of the audiobooks in their series (eg I've listened to a few Barbara Cleverly 'Joe Sandilands' books; I've listened to all Peter May's 'Lewis' series and I'm now trying another of his which is a conspiracy murder/mystery). 

There have been other threads here saying that audiobooks can be a great investment, and someone mentioned earning out within several weeks (which is great), so I just wanted to encourage those of you with enough list (and earnings) that it might be something to think about, as I'm sure I'm not alone in enjoying audio crime/mystery.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Just want to pause in to say I'm sorry to Valerie (and the group) if I was getting cranky.  (If I don't see her here again soon, I'll have to send a PM -- but generally I don't like to kick in public and apologize in private.)

I am really glad she started this thread, and don't want to let it get negative.  There's a lot of great energy here -- enthusiasm for a genre that doesn't get talked about that much.

Camille


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I was going to get audiobooks done but I need a really plummy English accent and I'm not sure ACX can oblige.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

artan said:


> If anyone was offended by my discussion of covers earlier, I apologized. I didn't mean to diss anyone's cover. I thought we were talking about the look and feel of trad pub's branding of the cozy genre and I was giving my opinion as a long time reader of the genre.


Artan, I was actually thinking about the one who has been told she writes too slow. Your opinions were fine. But for my analogy to work I had to clothe (cover) the baby (book).
So if something works use it. If not ignore it.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm still here, reading along. This morning, I drafted up a big comment about objective vs subjective truth, and then I just decided I was derailing.  (Plus, I said I would let it go!)

Mad respect for Camille, just want to say. Love all your comments and thoughts on the board.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

TattooedWriter said:


> Totally agree about not having to have anything in the Top 100 to make a living.
> 
> I have a question about cozy mystery covers. A lot of the cozy mysteries have vector art or cartoon covers. Is this now the established norm for this genre? Do they attract readers more than, say, a photo cover?


Photos were popular back in the 60s and 70s -- but at that time, "cozies" tended to have more Thriller-like covers. All mystery -- funny, cozy, no matter what -- had darker more threatening covers.

The established norm for traditionally published cozies for the past twenty years has been to have a painted cover depicting a domestic scene (possibly a very "quaint" domestic scene, but not always). Earlier it always had a sinister element in it. Say, a table set for tea, but with a bloody knife or a poison bottle. Later it came to be just a setting and the title would add the "mystery/crime" related element. Once a series was established -- and maybe had a chance at breaking out of the genre -- there would often be a make over with a style that suited that particular series. (Check out books by Lillian Jackson Braun -- Her "Cat Who" books would have a flat color background, a painted item related to the plot -- like a rolling pin or a book -- and the branded cat footprints across the cover. But most of the design revolved around the type.) This might be something that included photos or not -- but it was almost always a very slick professional design, with the idea of placing it somewhere with the mainstream audience.

Vector has become popular, I think, because it has been in use for a long time in chick lit, and so it appeals to a younger audience. It implies a book which is a little more hip. However, I'm seeing it a lot on indie books, mainly because it's quicker than painting, and it does convey humor and lightness well.



VMた said:


> Vector usually indicates ***humorous cozy.*** Not always--I wouldn't expect it with Camille's, for instance--but usually.


 That's partly because mine are not actually vector, so there are subtle differences in look. (On most of mine, they are meant to look retro.) You'll see vector a lot in crime comedy -- the darker end in particular -- but you'll see very different colors and styles used. (Light cozy humor and chicklit is more likely to use outlines on the shapes, for instance.)

"Design" is in right now, so I expect to see more use of vector art. On the other hand, photos are cheap, and I've heard from pro artists all over that photos and photo-manip are increasing in all genres again. (But that also means that painted covers are coming back for "standout" books.)

So... I'd say, watch the leaders in your sub-genre or flavor of work.

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

valeriec80 said:


> I'm still here, reading along. This morning, I drafted up a big comment about objective vs subjective truth, and then I just decided I was derailing.  (Plus, I said I would let it go!)
> 
> Mad respect for Camille, just want to say. Love all your comments and thoughts on the board.


We're better off putting that energy into writing our books. (After all, we're not just derailing the thread.)

Mad respect in return. Group hug.

Camille


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi all,

I'm a mystery author who is struggling to get enough books and stories out to catch the attention of the buyers. After marketing/promoting my first mystery novel, an 1880s historical, a new novella, books in other genres and a handful of short stories, I've learned a lot. First, the indie mystery market is very active. There are indie authors who are doing well. BUT, and somebody else mentioned this, they ALL have series of at least five or six books out there, and they release new ones fairly fast. A lot of previously published books are getting dumped on the market so there are always a lot of choices out there.

There are still a lot of traditionally published mysteries coming out, and in the cozy area, lots of them are planned for 2015. LOTS of them. In some ways, the industry is behind the times and reviewers don't pay a lot of attention to the indie mysteries. Most of the promo is done by other authors who host blog tours, guest bloggers, etc. There are a lot of giveaways and freebies available on any day. Many of the readers still prefer paperbacks.

And the prices are always low. I recently raised the cost of my LONE STAR DEATH to $3.99 for the Kindle, and it spurred (heh) a few more sales. But only a few every month. I sporadically give away my short stories on Amazon and that brings in a few more sales, but my problem (I've been told) is that I don't have enough longer novels in the same series.

Oddly enough, my older historical seems to be selling better now than the contemporary books. I had decided not to continue that one as a series, but now I wonder if maybe I should. Still, that's only a few per month, not nearly enough to motivate me.

And somebody mentioned the middle grade/young adult market. There aren't a lot of traditional mysteries for that market, probably because they don't sell well. Middle grade is almost impossible to crack with e-books. I've tried, and friends have tried.

A lot of what I write in short stories is more macabre, or dark, than the mysteries. I've thought about switching my efforts to horror, but am not sure that would be any better.

bobbi a. chukran
http://bobbichukran.com


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh, and also, for every book that sells, it takes a HUGE amount of promotion to make it happen in the mystery field. All of the reader's lists, Facebook groups, etc. are saturated with authors promoting our books. Maybe it's the same in the other genres; I'm not sure.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

bobbic said:


> In some ways, the industry is behind the times and reviewers don't pay a lot of attention to the indie mysteries.


Yes, I was just thinking about that: when we talk about the genre lagging -- it's more than a matter of whether readers have adopted ebooks or are open to new authors. It also has to do with the attitudes of the community -- such as book bloggers.

When you look at major mystery bloggers and reviewers, they seem to be at about the same place romance bloggers and reviewers were maybe 2 years ago. You have a few who are willing to look at indie books. A few more who accept submissions of them (in paper only) but seldom review them. And a whole lot who are simply closed to self-published books period. And there is a very strong preference for paper among mystery reviewers.

Of course, this can be got around if you set up your own publishing company and produce a very professional paper book -- however, even there, I'm sure some of these will take a look to see if your publishing company has published books by other authors.

(One reason to use a pen name for different series?)

Camille


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> Yes, I was just thinking about that: when we talk about the genre lagging -- it's more than a matter of whether readers have adopted ebooks or are open to new authors. It also has to do with the attitudes of the community -- such as book bloggers.
> 
> When you look at major mystery bloggers and reviewers, they seem to be at about the same place romance bloggers and reviewers were maybe 2 years ago. You have a few who are willing to look at indie books. A few more who accept submissions of them (in paper only) but seldom review them. And a whole lot who are simply closed to self-published books period. And there is a very strong preference for paper among mystery reviewers.
> 
> ...


I review on my blog, and the blog has the word "mystery" in the title. I specify that I give preference to indies and that I prefer mysteries but will consider some sci-fi and some horror. Still 90% of the submissions I get are horror and sci-fi.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I was the one who mentioned MG -- and it was not at all a suggestion of a way to jumpstart a career.  MG is much further behind in adoption of indies and ebooks both.  It's definitely much harder.

What I said was that we need to recruit youth back into the genre.  Writing for younger readers -- in particular YA (or upper MG; those reading adult books) -- is necessary to build a future.  I think I used the word "opportunity" instead of necessary, and maybe that's what confused people. I didn't mean an opportunity to make bucks for individuals, but an opportunity to make the world a better place.

Here's a thought on that subject:  We all consider giving away a free book as a way to gain good will and interest from readers. But it's a very short term thing: if you give away a free book today, the reader will look for more books right after reading it... and if there are no more books, that reader will forget about it, and the freebie was wasted.

But what if we step back from that and think on a bigger scale?  What if, instead of just trying to lure someone into buying our books, we think of freebies as a way to build a new audience?

This is something that the Short Mystery Fiction Society did to bring back short fiction in the mystery genre.  They came together, they founded webzines, they supported webzines.  Writers wrote for the love (and yes, a hope of getting into the few big magazines that were left) and by golly they rebuilt the genre.  There are more paying magazines than there were when they started.  It's still a tricky thing, but they were doing something harder than what I'm thinking about here: they were converting adults.

And I remember the early days: everybody thought they were crazy.  "Nobody reads short mystery fiction, unless it's by a big headliner, and in an anthology.  And even then, most of the readers are only reading it because they like the author, not the story!  Nobody is at all interested in amateur mystery writing free on the web!"  And also, "You'll never get enough quality people to do it right!"

The nay-sayers were absolutely right.  For a long time the only people reading were other writers.  But it grew.

So, hear me through on the rest of this:

Now, what if we think more in terms of, um, subverting the minds of the next generation?

What if, say, some of us were to write a series of short mystery ebooks -- not short stories, but short because they are kids' stories -- and gave them away free?  A whole series?  Keep in mind that in a couple of years, 12 year olds will be 15 year olds and will be buying their own books.  And also keep in mind that kids remember what they liked better than adults do -- especially when it's a whole series.

I thought of this because I have an MR horse book (not a mystery) that never sold very well -- as we've all been told MR books never do -- but when it was free, it got a nice number of downloads and, more than that, kids were enthusiastic about it.  (With grown ups, you give them free books, and you get back reviews from less satisfied customers.  With kids, it's the opposite.)

Just a thought from your subversive, long-term thinker....

Camille


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

Authorearnings.com came out with some really insightful data recently:

http://authorearnings.com/report/july-2014-author-earnings-report/

Especially focus on the chart:

http://authorearnings.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/author-earnings-by-genre-and-publisher-type-5.png

- which shows that 54% of earnings of mysteries/thrillers are from Big 5 authors vs 23% from indies. By comparison, only 18% of earnings in Romance are from Big 5 authors vs 23% indies.

The study concludes:



> The truth is that, regardless of which publishing path an author chooses, some genres of trade ebooks sell vastly better than others, period. Other genres languish. For Big 5 authors, Mystery, Thriller, & Suspense is by far the most lucrative genre.


This explains why gaining market traction in mysteries and thrillers is so much harder for indie authors. In my own case, I'm following the path of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." I'm signing with an agent.


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## Nancy Warren (May 5, 2014)

Eileen Goudge said:


> Wow, a girl could get depressed reading this thread. Fortunately my new title, while my first mystery, isn't my first. Also, it's Book 1 of a series, so WHEW, at least I'm on the right track. Let's hope it finds a home in the hearts of a few readers


Wow, Eileen! What a thrill to see you here. I am a huge fan of your women's fiction. Have you gone indie??

Best wishes with your mystery.

Nancy


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## Nancy Warren (May 5, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> My straight indie series is called "cozy" but I call it "Lara Croft goes to the bayou."


Jana, I flat out LOVE your Bayou series. So much of the humor comes from the fish out of water aspect of a CIA trained killer stuck in a small town, but at its heart, it's kind of like a thriller heroine trapped in a cozy mystery. Brilliant.

Nancy


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm 40,000 words into an old-school style eerie mystery. I sure hope there's a place for it.


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## hyh (Jul 21, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> I was the one who mentioned MG -- and it was not at all a suggestion of a way to jumpstart a career. MG is much further behind in adoption of indies and ebooks both. It's definitely much harder.


No, I didn't think you were suggesting that  - I was just agreeing with bobbic in his observations about MG being tough and sharing my own similar experiences.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Nancy Warren said:


> Jana, I flat out LOVE your Bayou series. So much of the humor comes from the fish out of water aspect of a CIA trained killer stuck in a small town, but at its heart, it's kind of like a thriller heroine trapped in a cozy mystery. Brilliant.
> 
> Nancy


Thanks, Nancy! That series is my favorite. And, a little known fact, I was told by NY that it was too absurd and over the top and that readers wouldn't like it.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

This doesn't really count, but I have a novelette that's permafree, and is in the top 30 or so of the mystery/thriller category.  But it's more of a crime/law enforcement story than an actual mystery, so that's why it doesn't really count.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> What I'd like to see is a return of the old Hitchcock-style suspense thriller. (Well, the pre-Psycho ones. Not that I object to Psycho or Frenzy -- it's just that's all we see these days.)
> 
> Hi Camille,
> 
> ...


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## JavierCabrera (Jul 21, 2014)

> So... yeah. Lack of detail, research, or realism that caused a break in immersion; and a flood of rich, impossibly-young Expendables clones on steroids and viagra with supposedly really smart female sidekicks that were just window dressing and bed warmers included to prove how manly-man the MC was.


Hell, I would pay to read that!


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

I see the lack of indies as a sign that there are big opportunities for us in those genres. All of my books are either mysteries (the Soho Noir books) or thrillers (the Milton and Rose books) and they sell really well. I often dip into the top #100 thriller writers and after writing a lot of content in the second quarter of this year, I'm ready to reinvest some of the profits back into the business by promoting it (with ad sites together, Facebook ads and Google PPC) until the end of the year.

I certainly wouldn't be discouraged by those numbers. If you have a mystery or a thriller as your WIP, I'd get it out there as soon as it's ready. There are plenty of chances to do very well.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Mark Dawson said:


> I see the lack of indies as a sign that there are big opportunities for us in those genres. All of my books are either mysteries (the Soho Noir books) or thrillers (the Milton and Rose books) and they sell really well. I often dip into the top #100 thriller writers and after writing a lot of content in the second quarter of this year, I'm ready to reinvest some of the profits back into the business by promoting it (with ad sites together, Facebook ads and Google PPC) until the end of the year.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't be discouraged by those numbers. If you have a mystery or a thriller as your WIP, I'd get it out there as soon as it's ready. There are plenty of chances to do very well.


I don't think it's a lack of mystery writers so much as a lack of mystery writers in the top spots. But I do agree with the general "be prepared to pounce" underlying theme of your post.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

hyhanna said:


> No, I didn't think you were suggesting that  - I was just agreeing with bobbic in his observations about MG being tough and sharing my own similar experiences.


My ears are burnin' here! LOL. I was just trying to catch up to the thread. I'm sorry if I sounded discouraging. But my personal experience hasn't been good with my one MG book so far. I have some good reviews (not tons), some on Goodreads, etc. but what it takes is a lot of promotion to get the parents and teachers behind these books. I've seen kids in libraries squeal when they see certain books on the shelves and I eavesdrop (not in a creepy way--LOL). I heard one little girl say "Oh, this is the one that ALL my friends are reading!" I asked a fellow author about it, and she said, yes, the kids are reading things their peer group is reading--so what you have to do is reach out to the parents and teachers. One author uses Skype to do that with classrooms. I don't have the energy for that, I'm afraid. Some authors do library visits, readings, etc. Ditto on the energy thing.

I write plays for young people that have been published and won awards. So I thought I would turn one of them into a book, then a series--it's a fairy tale mash-up detective comedy but finding the market for it has been hard/impossible. Some say it's for much younger kids (the fairy tale thing), some say it's for adults. I finally changed the categories on the Amazon page and took off all references to a children's book. That hasn't helped. Some say the cover sucks. Some say I have to add five more books to get a "good" series. Arrrggggh! So, in the meantime, I'm back to writing adult mysteries that aren't selling, either.

One thing about the MG books---you have to market to the parents. And they really like authors who write nothing but kid's books. So there's that.

bobbi c.
http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Thanks, Nancy! That series is my favorite. And, a little known fact, I was told by NY that it was too absurd and over the top and that readers wouldn't like it.


There are those of us who actually seek out absurd and over the top! LOL

NY editors also told me back in the early '90s that "crafty, needlework, or fiber arts" mysteries like I wanted to write at the time wouldn't appeal to a large enough market, either. 

http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

I'm not sure any indie yet as the sort of 10-15-20 book series of Connelly's Bosch character or similar franchise. It seems that a large mass is needed in that genre to really get big traction.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

bobbic said:


> One thing about the MG books---you have to market to the parents. And they really like authors who write nothing but kid's books. So there's that.


Yes, I started in children's publishing. But that's _traditional_ publishing -- it's all geared toward the school system. Indie publishing for kids hasn't much started yet -- and sure it may never begin, but I'm not so sure. I think it just has some bigger obstacles. I've been experimenting a little here and there. I have a friend who homeschools, and she's begining to produce works for the homeschool market -- partly because what traditional publishing produces isn't geared toward her needs.

I'm thinking about how the first big breakout indie writer (whose name completely escapes me -- she used to hang out around here -- this is embarrassing) started, and really created a market: she wrote books which were attractive to young people. Not children, and maybe aimed at new adults, but they were very popular among the YA crowd. Her books were cheap and short and high interest. (Remember high-low books? High interest - low difficulty? Well hers were High interest - Low price.)

Anyway, this is really a tangent aside from the theoretical aspect: I think she did more than anyone else, more than Konrath or anyone like him, to transform indie publishing, because she transformed a readership. Konrath et alia transformed the writers, which was important enough, but she transformed the culture. (And I would say Hugh is another writer in that class - not chasing a market, but creating one.)

Camille


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## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

Does anyone thinking pricing affects whether Indies can break through the mystery/thriller wall?  I just moved my latest to $0.99 (for 400 pages!) as an experiment to see if maybe I can get some traction that way.  My gut is saying that it won't work - but what do others think?  Much of the discussion here centers on the fact that readers are loyal to their favorite thriller writers and will pay good money for their books.  That said, will they pay a few pennies for a newbie?


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

michaelsnuckols said:


> Does anyone thinking pricing affects whether Indies can break through the mystery/thriller wall? I just moved my latest to $0.99 (for 400 pages!) as an experiment to see if maybe I can get some traction that way. My gut is saying that it won't work - but what do others think? Much of the discussion here centers on the fact that readers are loyal to their favorite thriller writers and will pay good money for their books. That said, will they pay a few pennies for a newbie?


Price has never made one iota of difference for me. The mystery audience is more conservative with their time and attention than their money. Speaking for myself, I haunt Daily Cheap Reads looking for deals on Christie books I don't have. I don't even look at the prices of new authors. If something about their book descriptions grabs me, they go on the secret samples wishlist (that's how I bookmark books these days). I may read a sample later, or I might need to stumble across it a few more times.

IMHO, a high price is a barrier (i.e. above $5) but a low price makes little difference unless I've already decided to buy, and I'm just waiting until I have the money. I won't even download free books on spec. (That's why I use a wishlist rather than samples.)

Camille


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

michaelsnuckols said:


> Does anyone thinking pricing affects whether Indies can break through the mystery/thriller wall? I just moved my latest to $0.99 (for 400 pages!) as an experiment to see if maybe I can get some traction that way. My gut is saying that it won't work - but what do others think?


They'll actually pay full price for an indie book, but you have to get it in front of them first. Just listing it on Amazon isn't enough, because there are so many others there, including the Big Names. You have to blog, and have a website, and do guest blogs and do giveaways on Goodreads (something I haven't done yet). You have to play around with the Kindle freebie books and have other books there to be seen. In other words, a series. I've seen a few authors who are doing well and they are constantly releasing new books.

Participating in places where the readers hang out (like on GR) helps, too. But the readers are getting very tired of all the promotion they see out there, so that can come back to bite you, too.

One simple thing I haven't done with my mysteries that I'm working on is a mailing list of friends, family, past customers (which is hard because who knows who buys from Amazon??). This is "old school" marketing but I've heard it works to help get a buzz going. I'm going to use Mail Chimp because others recommend it and see where it goes. I suspect it will be hard to get folks to sign up for it, though, so I'll offer a free story, recipes (GACK), whatever, everybody will be ONLY opt-in. I'm lucky that I have a backlog of garden articles, etc. that I can include, so hopefully it won't get to be a PITA.

http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


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## Robert A Michael (Apr 30, 2012)

@Mark: Just picked up your permafree books. Will give 'em a read this weekend and leave a review.

It's a tough biz we are in. It is good that we all hang out here and brainstorm. It is an inspiration. Thanks everyone for their input and thank you OP for starting this thread.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Speaking for myself, I haunt Daily Cheap Reads looking for deals on Christie books I don't have.
> 
> Camille


Camille, this made me smile yesterday---I saw that there were at least three Christie books in the top selling Kindle mysteries. I wonder what she'd think about all this e-book stuff? LOL


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Robert A Michael said:


> @Mark: Just picked up your permafree books. Will give 'em a read this weekend and leave a review.


After looking at all your covers, I have that song "Monday, Monday" going through my head.


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## m.a. petterson (Sep 11, 2013)

"Five to six books in a series before it gains traction"?

Oh boy, two down and four to go.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

m p said:


> "Five to six books in a series before it gains traction"?
> 
> Oh boy, two down and four to go.


Yeah, same here. I've definitely hurt my career by writing whatever the muse lead me to write. Gotta stop that. I think having short stories out in the same series helps a bit, but of course the prices are much lower. I'll have some others out there in anthologies coming up, so hopefully those will attract a different audience.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

bobbic said:


> Oh, and also, for every book that sells, it takes a HUGE amount of promotion to make it happen in the mystery field. All of the reader's lists, Facebook groups, etc. are saturated with authors promoting our books. Maybe it's the same in the other genres; I'm not sure.


I don't think this is necessarily true. I know several Indie mystery writers who are doing extremely well and do very little promotion, aside from regular BookBub ads. They both have 10+ books out and release a new book every 4-6 weeks.....that is the key. They are not spamming FB groups, though they are active on FB, it's with their fan pages. They have built good mailing lists and they are consistent with the look of their books and write in a continuing series....this is in cozy mystery.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

PamelaKelley said:


> I don't think this is necessarily true. I know several Indie mystery writers who are doing extremely well and do very little promotion, aside from regular BookBub ads. They both have 10+ books out and release a new book every 4-6 weeks.....that is the key. They are not spamming FB groups, though they are active on FB, it's with their fan pages. They have built good mailing lists and they are consistent with the look of their books and write in a continuing series....this is in cozy mystery.


I don't think you even have to release as often as that. I'm on a quarterly schedule (more or less) and I seem to be doing OK. Anything less frequent than that I think might not work so well, though. My social media is limited to the occasional tweet for a cover reveal or new release, and an infrequently maintained Pinterest board. I don't do FB at all. But yes, I would say that really strong, consistent branding and a good quality mailing list are key. My mailing list is only 500 people after a year and yet that's still enough to shoot me right up the category charts on release day.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Popping in one more time.
The key to selling mysteries is write a good mystery.    We will either love you after the first book and look for everything you do or we will just put you on the no thanks list.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Lydniz said:


> I don't think you even have to release as often as that. I'm on a quarterly schedule (more or less) and I seem to be doing OK. Anything less frequent than that I think might not work so well, though. My social media is limited to the occasional tweet for a cover reveal or new release, and an infrequently maintained Pinterest board. I don't do FB at all. But yes, I would say that really strong, consistent branding and a good quality mailing list are key. My mailing list is only 500 people after a year and yet that's still enough to shoot me right up the category charts on release day.


I totally agree. Sorry, I was just saying that was key for them doing well, I didn't mean to imply that you must release every 4-6 weeks. I wish I could, but I'm running 3-4 months. For my mystery it's been over 7 months since my first one came out, which is less than ideal, but I'm also writing romance.


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## Nancy Warren (May 5, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Popping in one more time.
> The key to selling mysteries is write a good mystery. We will either love you after the first book and look for everything you do or we will just put you on the no thanks list.


OMG Cin, thank you for that. Sometimes it's easy to forget the obvious.

Nancy


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## Nancy Warren (May 5, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Thanks, Nancy! That series is my favorite. And, a little known fact, I was told by NY that it was too absurd and over the top and that readers wouldn't like it.


Somebody's crying in her Cosmo 

Good for you.

Nancy


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

PamelaKelley said:


> I don't think this is necessarily true. I know several Indie mystery writers who are doing extremely well and do very little promotion, aside from regular BookBub ads. They both have 10+ books out and release a new book every 4-6 weeks....


Yes, no matter what, having a large number of *related* books out and releasing them quickly is more important than anything else. But if you don't or can't do that, then you have to resort to other things. I certainly don't spam anyone, and do a lot less online promo than others. One thing about the BookBub ads is that they require you (or so I've been told) that you have to have a certain amount of Amazon reviews before they'll even consider your book. So there's that.

http://www.amazon.com/Bobbi-A.-Chukran/e/B005UK1P7M


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Nancy Warren said:


> Somebody's crying in her Cosmo


Ha! I hope so.


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## josephfranciscollins (Jul 7, 2014)

CJArcher said:


> I think a few posts above have hit on the reasons why indie thrillers aren't doing so well. Just looking at my circle of friends and family, the thriller readers tend to read less voraciously than romance and cozy mystery readers, plus they only pick from authors they've liked previously. Cost isn't much of a factor so they'll pay for their favourite authors. They don't browse online but will search for an author or title directly on Amazon (if they shop for ebooks there), and they don't subscribe to Bookbub etc. They also prefer to read a hard copy not an ebook. Since they're not all that voracious, they don't see a need to try a new author when the handful of authors they know and enjoy produce enough to satisfy them. As a guess, I'd say those readers who do read ebook thrillers and are willing to try new authors are seeing Amazon recommend their T&M imprint books. And again, because they're not voracious, there's enough to satisfy them in that crop.


I think you have nailed it. After my current series are complete I am strongly considering twisting the genre I write in a bit to include more romance into the thriller side of things hoping that will get some interest going.

Joe


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

So here's an idea. What if we thriller/indie writers did this? Suppose we put out a monthly anthology/bundle "book" that would really be an Alfred Hitchcock style magazine? I'm spit-ballin' here, but there's a cross-over readership who would probably buy the magazine, er I mean "book" every month and check out the author's they like to discover their other work. And unlike with the old anthology mags, back issues would always be readily available.


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## NS (Jul 8, 2011)

I love to read and write about serial killers.  My latest book, actually, is # something in _serial thriller_ category.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

jdcore said:


> So here's an idea. What if we thriller/indie writers did this? Suppose we put out a monthly anthology/bundle "book" that would really be an Alfred Hitchcock style magazine? I'm spit-ballin' here, but there's a cross-over readership who would probably buy the magazine, er I mean "book" every month and check out the author's they like to discover their other work. And unlike with the old anthology mags, back issues would always be readily available.


It IS a great idea, except: Newer magazines and anthos have the exact same problem as we do: the readers don't trust new authors OR new magazines.

On the other hand, if you could get the top authors in the field to submit stories to the collection (which you could only do by paying them well) then you might get the readers to try the whole issue.

The best way to hit that crossover audience is to write short fiction and break in to AHMM, EQMM, the Strand and a few others. Also more lucrative.

Camille


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> It IS a great idea, except: Newer magazines and anthos have the exact same problem as we do: the readers don't trust new authors OR new magazines.
> 
> On the other hand, if you could get the top authors in the field to submit stories to the collection (which you could only do by paying them well) then you might get the readers to try the whole issue.
> 
> ...


Valid.

*Le sigh*


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

Although ...

I still think it could work to build discoverability of newbies in the genre. If person A mentions the mag in his/her newsletter and it leads to a reader discovering a new writer, and if it leads to a subscriber so that future new writers can also be discovered by that same reader ...


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## Not Here Anymore (May 16, 2012)

Really enjoyed reading this thread. Glad it was posted. 

I write cozy mystery and light suspense. I don't think the cozy mystery market is lagging. It would be nice if it were because then I'd actually be ahead of the power curve for once.  All the cozy readers I know are voracious readers and are thrilled to have more choices and more frequent release dates from authors.

My experience with trying to get reviewers is similar to the post mentioned up thread. I had several "go-to" reviewers who steadily reviewed my traditionally pubbed cozies, but when I offered them my indie suspense series, most weren't interested--some because of the shift in genre and some because they didn't review self-pubbed books. After a few months of beating my head against that brick wall, I shifted to asking for reader reviews. Worked much better. 

I wonder how much of the lack of indies in the top 100 is due to the composition of the audience--some of my cozy readers are on FB, Twitter, and social media, but many aren't, which may make it harder for a book or series to catch on and build momentum...at least compared to the viral muscle some reader groups have. (I'm looking at you, New Adult readers.) Just a thought. 

I wonder how many readers check the top 100 page? I browse the also-boughts of my favorite books to find new authors.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Does anyone have experience with mysteries other than cozies? Maybe I missed the posts since it's a long thread, but I don't see other types discussed. Thanks.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Does anyone have experience with mysteries other than cozies? Maybe I missed the posts since it's a long thread, but I don't see other types discussed. Thanks.


I stobbornly prefer to call most of my longfom mystery "cozy" - but they really are what people think of today as traditional mystery. What would you call what you write?

Camille


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

I plan to write mysteries a few years from now. It will just take time. I think indies will eventually come to have a healthy representation there as well one of these days. It just takes time.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> The key to selling mysteries is write a good mystery. We will either love you after the first book and look for everything you do or we will just put you on the no thanks list.


That is certainly true for me. If I really like a book, I go looking to see if the author has other titles and I usually buy whatever they have, so I do agree that having other works available is important. That said, I have to admit, when I am researching a book for the first time, and I go to the author's page and see they've released a dozen books in as many months, it's a turn off to me. Maybe it's an unfair judgement, but I just can't help asking myself how good the books could possibly be if they're cranking them out that fast. I'm sure there are a few people who can produce quantity without sacrificing quality, but I think they're in the minority.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

A.A said:


> I'm 40,000 words into an old-school style eerie mystery. I sure hope there's a place for it.


I have a place for it on my Kindle. Let me know when it's done. I love eerie.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> I stobbornly prefer to call most of my longfom mystery "cozy" - but they really are what people think of today as traditional mystery. What would you call what you write?
> 
> Camille


I'm working on my first mystery which will be a historical mystery but strongly of the hardboiled/noir variety. I am definitely more of a fan of Chandler than Agatha Christie.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> I'm working on my first mystery which will be a historical mystery but strongly of the hardboiled/noir variety. I am definitely more of a fan of Chandler than Agatha Christie.


Hard-boiled is a part of the traditional mystery -- and a genre unto itself. I guess the question would be how hard-boiled? I think the main part of that genre has kind of split -- either adhering recognizeably to the old tropes, or it has gone action thriller-ish.

There's a whole raft of books in the middle, which different people define different ways. (Chandler has influenced a lot of the softer end of traditional mystery, including myself -- he and Hammett are certainly a big influence on my mystery westerns, though they are also light and silly.) Sometimes people say "hard-boiled" to mean realistic.

If you feel like the word "hard-boiled" or "noir" is a good descriptor, IMHO, you should use it. If you think it's just tougher than cozy, then you could use "mystery" "detective fiction" or "traditional mystery." Since it is historical, you probably should use "historical mystery" -- which usually has a lot of emphasis on realism. (And "Hard-boiled historical mystery" would probably ID the story for your audience right off the bat.)

BTW, do you know the difference between hard-boiled and noir? Traditionally "Noir" should be used for a story of the downfall of an antihero. Sometimes a crook, sometimes an otherwise honest tough guy caught up in a situation. Hard-boiled applies to a though hero who manages to do the right thing. (Or as a mentor of mine use to put it: "Hard-boiled means the hero is tough. Noir means the hero is f**k*d.")

But those definitions are not really hard and fast: A lot of modern noir is more optimistic. Also, back when the French started writing about "noir" movies, the movies they were looking back at were often more pot-boilers, and often were considered "women's films." ("The House on Telegraph Hill" would be a good example.)

Camille


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## hardnutt (Nov 19, 2010)

So many things to think about in this thread. I've found the same re just about every aspect of indie publishing. And, do you know what? I'm getting tired of this endless 'thinking'. I want to 'think' about plots and characters, not endlessly worry about what the hell I'm doing wrong _now_. I generally seem to be doing something (everything?) wrong. I spend my time correcting all this 'wrongness' instead of writing. Okay, getting my back-list formatted as a technological ignoramus took considerably more time than for many here. Consequently, I haven't written a new novel, series or otherwise, since 2011.

I started as a traditional author way back in the nineties (yeah, I'm _that old! I now have fifteen books in my main mystery series. I make a living -- just, but that's more because I have a lot of books out, not because I sell vast numbers. As individual books, my one biographical (Tudor) historical sells far more than any individual mystery title. I plan on writing more bio historicals (but only if I can tear myself away from endlessly trying to conform to whatever it is that readers are reckoned to want in the mystery genre).

Keywords are a torment to me. And categories. I've twirled about, from one category to another, changing keywords, changing covers, changing this, changing that. I'm fast approaching the stage of saying 'stuff it'!

I think of the series as cozy procedurals. My protagonist comes from a family who go in for a little gentle law-bending and, to me, the family sub-plots are every bit as important as the main plot and intended to be humorous. I've had reviewers say they find my characters likeable and that they seem like real people; I've had other reviewers say they didn't take to them at all. I've had reviewers say they wanted to read more about my protagonist's family; others say they wondered why there all this 'family' stuff in there. The usual mix. How the hell one interprets it all I have no idea. But it just leaves me floundering and thinking like a previous commenter, that maybe I should also go flip burgers (but as I'm probably barred by age from entering a work-place where everyone seems just out of nappies, that's unlikely to be the answer).

I just hope that those on this thread who say they think mysteries are going to be the next indie 'breakout' genre are right. Otherwise, as an alternative to burger-flipping, I really am going to be plunging deeper into the shit-filled streets of Tudor (and earlier) England. Must remember to bring my wellies._


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## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

It's 5.30 am so have to go to sleep but think this is an intriguing thread. Keep going guys, I'm going to have to read this more than once. 

I thought I was the only one in the world not selling much.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

jdcore said:


> So here's an idea. What if we thriller/indie writers did this? Suppose we put out a monthly anthology/bundle "book" that would really be an Alfred Hitchcock style magazine?


Then somebody would have to quit doing all their other writing, because something like that would be more than a full-time job. There are a lot of anthologies being published now, but granted, most of them are in the horror/fantasy genres.

http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


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## BlairErotica (Mar 1, 2014)

Given that Alfred Hitchcock and Ellery Queen (and others) are still being published, you'd have stiff competition.


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

bobbic said:


> Then somebody would have to quit doing all their other writing, because something like that would be more than a full-time job. There are a lot of anthologies being published now, but granted, most of them are in the horror/fantasy genres.
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


It would be time consuming, but mostly for the first edition. I've worked in magazine production back in the 80s. (ON EDIT It was a digest format local humor publication in Pittsburgh) I typeset everything, glued in the layout, made galleys, prepped the offset run, etc. THAT was full time work. This would be much easier, and after the first issue glitches were worked out it would just be plug-and-play.


BlairErotica said:


> Given that Alfred Hitchcock and Ellery Queen (and others) are still being published, you'd have stiff competition.


Would they be competition? Do they compete with each other or is there not cross over audience?

Let me ask this, how many of you would refuse to submit a story in the hopes that it will bring new readers to your websites or author pages because it might not work?

Also, if I run with this, who here would refuse to promote it with a tweet here or a blogpost there?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Hard-boiled is a part of the traditional mystery -- and a genre unto itself. I guess the question would be how hard-boiled? I think the main part of that genre has kind of split -- either adhering recognizeably to the old tropes, or it has gone action thriller-ish.
> 
> There's a whole raft of books in the middle, which different people define different ways. (Chandler has influenced a lot of the softer end of traditional mystery, including myself -- he and Hammett are certainly a big influence on my mystery westerns, though they are also light and silly.) Sometimes people say "hard-boiled" to mean realistic.
> 
> ...


I can't agree with your definitions. Your description of Noir is more a movie definition.

The Rebus novels by Ian Rankin, for example, are always described as Noir but are not at all about the 'downfall of the antihero'. The same is true of McIlvanney's Laidlaw novels. Noir mystery novels are largely defined by the main character _being_ an antihero rather than that he has a 'downfall'. I have been reading mysteries for a very long time (as well has having studied them at university) so this is a subject I am pretty well acquainted with. It is always an interesting debate.

I would agree that the difference in hardboiled and noir is that in hardboiled the hero is tough whilst Noir he is an anti-hero. It is a distinction, however, that is becoming observed more in the breech than in observance. But traditionally, Phillip Marlow would never have stolen milk and bread as Rebus quite unapologetically did in one of the Rankin novels.

I intend to label the novels as Medieval Noir which should give a good idea of the kind they are. I was more asking if anyone had experience with sales of other subgenres than cozies rather than help with definitions.

Everyone seems to be discussing cozies. That is only one segment of the mystery genre.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> I can't agree with your definitions. Your description of Noir is more a movie definition.
> 
> The Rebus novels by Ian Rankin, for example, are always described as Noir but are not at all about the 'downfall of the antihero'. Noir mystery novels are largely defined by the main being an antihero rather than that he has a 'downfall'. I have been reading mysteries for a very long time (as well has having studied them at university) so this is a subject I am pretty well acquainted with. It is always an interesting debate.
> 
> I intend to label the novels as Medieval Noir which should give a good idea of the kind they are. I was more asking if anyone had experience with sales of other subgenres than cozies which is what everyone seems to be discussing. That is only one segment of the mystery genre.


Yes, in the past 10-15 years, people have come to use "noir" as a description of mood rather than a genre. And _that_ actually comes from the movies, not the books. The literary world has always been much more strict. (The movies, as I said, always deviated from what the literary world claimed. They really didn't have a single genre that was "noir" -- just a style that roved all over the place.)

Rebus follows in the movie tradition: it's a classic police procedural in terms of genre. Noir is is the _style_. (Although now that I think about it, there is another reason people call it noir -- more below.)

The literary genre "Noir" was always a very specific thing. The greats of that genre: Jim Thomson, James M. Cain, Edward Anderson, Horace McCoy, William Lindsay Gresham. Hammett's fiction came before the genre was defined and could be considered a kind of prototype of both -- especially things like Terror Town, but even his clearly hard-boiled works had a more amoral, on the edge of tragedy aspect to them.

And of course modern masters like James Ellroy are bringing it back to that element. Which is where something like Rebus could be considered noir. But it's because it's about the corrupting power of crime -- and the corruption of heroes. Modern noir is different from general hard-boiled in that, even if the hero doesn't fall, he is either tempted, OR he is dealing with colleagues who are tempted and falling. Corruption surrounds him.

And I'm not saying that it's wrong to use Noir as a style description rather than a genre, I'm just giving you the history and where it came from. After all "noir" isn't a category you can shelf your books in. These days, real noir is shelved as general or literary fiction, or called crime fiction.

Camille


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Yes, in the past 10-15 years, people have come to use "noir" as a description of mood rather than a genre. And _that_ actually comes from the movies, not the books. The literary world has always been much more strict. (The movies, as I said, always deviated from what the literary world claimed. They really didn't have a single genre that was "noir" -- just a style that roved all over the place.)
> 
> Rebus follows in the movie tradition: it's a classic police procedural in terms of genre. Noir is is the _style_. (Although now that I think about it, there is another reason people call it noir -- more below.)
> 
> ...


Rebus is Noir because he is an anti-hero, not because of the 'mood'. That Rebus is a cop doesn't make it a 'procedural'. It isn't and doesn't have any of the trope of that subgenre. It isn't that Rebus 'could' be considered Noir. It is considered Noir. It always has been considered Noir.

I am well acquainted with the history, thank you.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I too would be interested if anyone has some noir books (as opposed to cozies or thrillers) that are selling well.

Personally, I hate to say this, but I strongly suspect that to the layperson, noir and hardboiled are practically synonymous these days. Sure, I think your average Joe Schmoe might say they're different, but I bet each person would come up with different reasons as to why they're different.

Sometimes, it's useful to remember that genres and subgenres all began as descriptive, not prescriptive. Some guy did not get up and say, "Well, I shall now create the epic fantasy genre, and when I do I will publish a list of the characteristics that are required: a quest, a dragon, some small human-like creatures, magic, a wizard, and a big map at the beginning of the book." No, one guy wrote a book, and he didn't know what it was. (Or possibly several people came out with similar stuff at the same time) He was copying a whole bunch of other things he'd read and putting his own spin on on it. And then other people copied that until there were enough similar things to say there was a list of characteristics.

Anyway, we're far from the heyday of noir books, which was years ago. (If you're interested, there's also a subsubgenre called neonoir, of which things like _The Matrix_ apparently qualify, so...) All I'm saying is that being prescriptive with a subgenre is always going to be imprecise, because it's a distinction meant for readers, not writers, and in the earliest cases, it's always applied after a book is written, not before. So, often the similarities and tropes are incidental, not intentional. (At least in the beginning.) And then, once the tropes become codified, there's always someone out there who's going to want to break them just because they're "rules," and... yeah.

So, um, I meant that to be short.

What I'm saying is that if people are writing darker stuff and getting sales--especially stuff like what Camille is talking about, in which there's a fall of a protag--please let me know.  (I think _Sharp Objects_ by Gillian Flynn qualifies, if you're curious to what I mean.)


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes in the end what you call it, and whether anybody agrres with anybody matters less than how your audience finds you, and how you find your audience,

There has always been a big crossover for noir with mainstream.  But that's true of a lot of the "break out" books in any genre.  For instance top books in, say, contemporary fiction may be romance, or women's fiction.  But the publisher positions the book for the more general audience.

When you find an author who writes anything like your target voice, play six degrees of separation with them.  Go to their author page on Amazon and look at who is listed in the box of similar authors on the right hand side, and check them out too. And check out the authors connected to them.  Then if you are already familiar with them, check out the categories on their book pages, and do it for all their books, to see if your idea of how to categorize them is the same as their publisher.  And, of course, check out those you are less familiar with to see what other audiences may overlap with the core audience.

Camille


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

vlmain said:


> I have a place for it on my Kindle. Let me know when it's done. I love eerie.


Will do  I'm a huge fan of eerie. Stepping my toes into something with the feel of a 50s mystery/horror/sci fi movie, def. leaning more to the sinister than the overt.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

You want Noir.  I will give you Noir.  Presenting "Black" by Russell Blake.  Bring your checkbook or your credit card.  You will need them.  He is great.


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## hyh (Jul 21, 2013)

bobbic said:


> I'm sorry if I sounded discouraging. But my personal experience hasn't been good with my one MG book so far. I have some good reviews (not tons), some on Goodreads, etc. but what it takes is a lot of promotion to get the parents and teachers behind these books. I've seen kids in libraries squeal when they see certain books on the shelves and I eavesdrop (not in a creepy way--LOL). I heard one little girl say "Oh, this is the one that ALL my friends are reading!" I asked a fellow author about it, and she said, yes, the kids are reading things their peer group is reading--so what you have to do is reach out to the parents and teachers. One author uses Skype to do that with classrooms. I don't have the energy for that, I'm afraid. Some authors do library visits, readings, etc. Ditto on the energy thing.


Thanks, Bobbi!  Sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel bad - I actually didn't find your comment discouraging - it was really nice to hear from someone else with experience in MG, if nothing else just to feel like I'm not alone. It's discussed so little here on the forum that it's hard to tell if what I'm experiencing is "normal" for this genre and I need to adjust my expectations or if it's because I'm just a failure. 

And really agree with your conclusions on marketing MG - yes, it's not that it's impossible to market to this audience but that the methods, time & effort required is HUGE compared to the usual methods. You can't just throw a BB at it or other common ebook strategies - and like you, I've been putting off doing such things as visits to schools and massive library mailings because they seem to be poor ROI for the time involved, even though I know they would be better at targeting the MG audience. At the moment, I feel I'm better putting the time into writing more books (in other genres).



bobbic said:


> One thing about the MG books---you have to market to the parents. And they really like authors who write nothing but kid's books. So there's that.


Oh dear, then I'm in trouble!  I've just started publishing adult books under the same name. I really agonised over this and followed the advice of Hugh Howey & other oldies on the boards who all said to keep everything under one author name as a consistent brand. Oh well, too late now...!


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## hyh (Jul 21, 2013)

I find all the different labels for types of mysteries quite bemusing - maybe it's more of an American thing? 

I come from a British background and in the UK, it just seems to be called "Crime". Yes, some of it is police procedural and some of it is more psychological thriller and some of  it is more quaint, cosy type settings but they're all "crime fiction" (that's what the shelves were called in Borders, I remember).  This is the genre I usually read by choice, when I'm reading for pleasure, and that's what I call it. 

I actually find "thrillers" a bit off-putting as it immediately brings to mind a stereotype of spies/guns/explosions/evil tyrant wanting to take over the world - like those Hollywood summer blockbuster movies... and as a crime reader, I used to avoid anything lablled "thriller". But since I've moved into Kindle ebooks and am shopping more on Amazon now, I've had to adjust to the more American labelling of the genres since I've realised that on Amazon.com, "Mysteries & Thrillers" is what they call "Crime" and that "thriller" can just as well be an Ian Rankin Rebus novel (I've seen those in the Thriller bestseller lists) - even though personally, I would never call those books a "thriller".


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

valeriec80 said:


> I too would be interested if anyone has some noir books (as opposed to cozies or thrillers) that are selling well.
> 
> Personally, I hate to say this, but I strongly suspect that to the layperson, noir and hardboiled are practically synonymous these days. Sure, I think your average Joe Schmoe might say they're different, but I bet each person would come up with different reasons as to why they're different.
> 
> ...


The problem with the 'fall of a protagonist' is that it rules out a series.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

hyhanna said:


> I find all the different labels for types of mysteries quite bemusing - maybe it's more of an American thing?


Yeah, I think it is, actually. Especially in the last twenty years. Every so often I will pick up a new UK mystery (or sometimes even a Canadian one) and be pleasantly surprised at how much it _doesn't_ split off into genre splinter groups. You guys have stuck with traditional mystery much better than we have.

(Of course, you can't just blame American publishing the splintering -- It's partly also due to academics, especially in the noir, hard-boiled, thriller, suspense area.)

Camille


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> The problem with the 'fall of a protagonist' is that it rules out a series.


Yeah, I guess for a series maybe more of what I'm thinking is a sort of static character trait that constantly makes the character do things that really screw up her life. Bonus points if what makes her a good detective also makes her a crappy person. Like how the protag in The Killing can't take care of her son because she's obsessed with solving her case, so she neglects him. That kind of thing. I just eat that up with a spoon. It's so Shakespearean, you know? The tragic flaw.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

hyhanna said:


> I find all the different labels for types of mysteries quite bemusing - maybe it's more of an American thing?
> 
> I come from a British background and in the UK, it just seems to be called "Crime". Yes, some of it is police procedural and some of it is more psychological thriller and some of it is more quaint, cosy type settings but they're all "crime fiction" (that's what the shelves were called in Borders, I remember). This is the genre I usually read by choice, when I'm reading for pleasure, and that's what I call it.
> 
> I actually find "thrillers" a bit off-putting as it immediately brings to mind a stereotype of spies/guns/explosions/evil tyrant wanting to take over the world - like those Hollywood summer blockbuster movies... and as a crime reader, I used to avoid anything lablled "thriller". But since I've moved into Kindle ebooks and am shopping more on Amazon now, I've had to adjust to the more American labelling of the genres since I've realised that on Amazon.com, "Mysteries & Thrillers" is what they call "Crime" and that "thriller" can just as well be an Ian Rankin Rebus novel (I've seen those in the Thriller bestseller lists) - even though personally, I would never call those books a "thriller".


In Germany, it's just "crime" or rather "Krimi" as well. We also don't have many of the subgenres that the US has or at least not in the same way.

For example, not long ago someone asked me for recommendation for German cozies or "country house mysteries, not too bloody". My answer was, "Uh, we don't actually have cozies in the US sense, but maybe some of the quirkier regional crime fiction might fit the bill."

We do have Thrillers, but our thrillers are closer to what seems to be called "suspense" in the US (and are a subgenre of "Krimi"), whereas the shoot-em-up thrillers so popular in the US would be something completely different over here (and aren't particularly popular either). I'd probably call those "action adventure".

In fact, one of my biggest problems in marketing my own crime fiction is that I'm never sure how to categorise it, because it doesn't neatly fit into all of those US-specific subgenres and I'm often not quite sure what the exact definition of subgenre X even is.


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## hyh (Jul 21, 2013)

CoraBuhlert said:


> In Germany, it's just "crime" or rather "Krimi" as well. We also don't have many of the subgenres that the US has or at least not in the same way.
> 
> For example, not long ago someone asked me for recommendation for German cozies or "country house mysteries, not too bloody". My answer was, "Uh, we don't actually have cozies in the US sense, but maybe some of the quirkier regional crime fiction might fit the bill."
> 
> We do have Thrillers, but our thrillers are closer to what seems to be called "suspense" in the US (and are a subgenre of "Krimi"), whereas the shoot-em-up thrillers so popular in the US would be something completely different over here (and aren't particularly popular either). I'd probably call those "action adventure".


Yes, exactly!! You put it better than me. That's how I tend to categories it in my head - "shoot-em-up" thrillers as you call it would be more "Action Adventure" for me, rather than proper "crime". All the others are all subgenres of "crime". I used to avoid "thrillers" unless they were "psychological thrillers" coz I assumed they would be the shoot-em-up kind and a bit formulaic/insubstantial.

It's a bit like the difference between "The Usual Suspects" and "Mission Impossible". 

Or for books, it would be like the difference between Dan Brown (Thriller) and David Hewson (Crime - also based on historical/religious conspiracies, set in Italy, but with more depth to characters, realistic research detail, sophisticated story, etc, )


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

valeriec80 said:


> Yeah, I guess for a series maybe more of what I'm thinking is a sort of static character trait that constantly makes the character do things that really screw up her life. Bonus points if what makes her a good detective also makes her a crappy person. Like how the protag in The Killing can't take care of her son because she's obsessed with solving her case, so she neglects him. That kind of thing. I just eat that up with a spoon. It's so Shakespearean, you know? The tragic flaw.


Well, there are quite a few of those. It's a popular trope across the whole spectrum of Hard-boiled (detective, noir, police procedural). I guess it depends on how screwed up the protags you're you're looking for. (Are they just struggling with their inner demons, or are they nasty people?)

James Ellroy, obviously. He doesn't write lots of books, and they aren't exactly a series -- they are more overlapping stories. Some of his characters fall badly, and some manage to survive to fall again.

There's a sense of that in Lawrence Block's Matthew Scudder books.

Robert Crais writes a few of these as stand-alones (especially if you are looking for protags suffering PTSD and the like), and it crops up as an undercurrent in his series books -- though there you see it more in the clients, and in the later books. Elvis Cole is a nice guy, and though he later struggles with some issues, he really never is your dark anti-hero. Pike, on the other hand... well, Pike has his demons on lock down, but man does he have major demons. (As I said, those are "undercurrents" rather than a major theme, though.)

Crais wrote the one female character that comes immediately to mind of this "long dark night of the soul" type -- a bomb squad specialist who got blown up and is fighting her way back. Demolition Angel.

I know there are other such women, but I don't recall off hand.

I think the main way you can have a series where you have heroes that fall and fail is to follow up on the real tragedy for some of these guys: they fall badly, and then survive. What becomes of them can be interesting, but after a while, they either stop failing or die or become repetitive.

There's also the related genre of the crime comedy: the crooks who fail dismally but keep trying. Some of these are very dark, but usually with a mean sense of humor and irony.

Camille


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

valeriec80 said:


> Yeah, I guess for a series maybe more of what I'm thinking is a sort of static character trait that constantly makes the character do things that really screw up her life. Bonus points if what makes her a good detective also makes her a crappy person. Like how the protag in The Killing can't take care of her son because she's obsessed with solving her case, so she neglects him. That kind of thing. I just eat that up with a spoon. It's so Shakespearean, you know? The tragic flaw.


Often these terms trip us up since we don't all use them the same way, so we end up talking at cross purposes. I consider 'falling' being destroyed. What you're talking about I would call a flawed protagonist or anti-hero. 

Quite a bit of the early noir had protagonists who did fall, that is were destroyed by the situation. The protagonist having some serious flaw is a standard trope to both hardboiled and noir and pretty much all the range in between. But for noir, the protagonist is usually so flawed as to be at least somewhat corrupt or seriously tempted by corruption in some way while not in hardboiled. The classic hardboiled protag is something of a knight errant. Of course as has been mentioned, those two often overlap and the definitions have become blurred.

However, the definitions of the subgenres got us a bit off track. I am still wondering if anyone has experience with sales on the 'grittier' side of mysteries. Anyone?


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Well, there are quite a few of those.


Yeah, but are any of them indie, and are any of them selling? I really want to be a mercenary. It's probably never going to happen, but I like to delude myself that I'm actually going to write something in a popular genre. Especially since I want to provide for my growing human larva and all. 



JRTomlin said:


> Often these terms trip us up since we don't all use them the same way, so we end up talking at cross purposes. I consider 'falling' being destroyed. What you're talking about I would call a flawed protagonist or anti-hero.


Well, the fall would happen at the end of the series. Each book would be a devolution further and further into the morass. But I probably shouldn't do that. Readers would _hate_ me. I should pull some last minute redemption out of my butt or something.



JRTomlin said:


> However, the definitions of the subgenres got us a bit off track. I am still wondering if anyone has experience with sales on the 'grittier' side of mysteries. Anyone?


This.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

jdcore said:


> So here's an idea. What if we thriller/indie writers did this? Suppose we put out a monthly anthology/bundle "book" that would really be an Alfred Hitchcock style magazine? I'm spit-ballin' here, but there's a cross-over readership who would probably buy the magazine, er I mean "book" every month and check out the author's they like to discover their other work. And unlike with the old anthology mags, back issues would always be readily available.


That's pretty much what many of us are doing with our boxed sets, only we're giving them many full length novels for 99 cents. The Deadly Dozen box set hit the NY Times BS list. Thrilling Thirteen has done pretty well, and I'm pretty sure it's what has kept my series from tanking this summer. It also shows me that thriller readers do like a bargain, and will give new authors a try.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

CoraBuhlert said:


> In Germany, it's just "crime" or rather "Krimi" as well. We also don't have many of the subgenres that the US has or at least not in the same way.
> 
> For example, not long ago someone asked me for recommendation for German cozies or "country house mysteries, not too bloody". My answer was, "Uh, we don't actually have cozies in the US sense, but maybe some of the quirkier regional crime fiction might fit the bill."
> 
> ...


Interesting to hear how these books are categorized (or categorised  ) in other countries. I too find it daunting when choosing categories. The novellas I've written aren't really crime stories, and they're not really police procedurals. So while I use the "crime" and "mystery/thriller" categories, I try to describe the story in my blurb so that readers won't feel like they've been misled.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

valeriec80 said:


> Yeah, but are any of them indie, and are any of them selling? I really want to be a mercenary. It's probably never going to happen, but I like to delude myself that I'm actually going to write something in a popular genre. Especially since I want to provide for my growing human larva and all.


That goes back to the original question, which has the same answers, but with one exception: tragedy tends to appeal to a mainstream audience more than genre, especially the literary audience. And the mainstream audience is even slower than mystery to adopt pretty much anything. There is the "best seller" subset, but the people looking for that one perfect book tend to be choosy and conservative about their choices.

(I've even talked to some who don't know how they find books -- because they wait so long before buying and reading a book that they already know all about it before they think of buying it. This is why it's good to think of genre audience first, imho.)

IMHO, the key is the audience. If you find an indie who is selling, great, but if that's not where the audience is, it's a waste of time looking. Look where the audience is. Look at those books the audience loves. Do a good job of matching cover and description styles. Hang out with fans of those books AS A FAN, and learn more about them.

I DO think that writing short fiction for Alfred Hitchcocks Mystery Magazine, and EQ, and actually, for more commercial literary magazines (some of which really eat up the self-destructive tragedy stuff) is one way to gain familiarity and legitimacy in the eyes of that audience.

Camille


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Interesting to hear how these books are categorized (or categorised  ) in other countries. I too find it daunting when choosing categories. The novellas I've written aren't really crime stories, and they're not really police procedurals. So while I use the "crime" and "mystery/thriller" categories, I try to describe the story in my blurb so that readers won't feel like they've been misled.


I was reading the reviews on Amazon today for a book of "Christmas mysteries." Several of the reviewers gave the book just a couple of stars because they said it wasn't true mystery, it was crime. To them, a hardboiled or noir story isn't mystery. I've noticed, in general, that readers are getting very picky, or sensitive, to the whole genre designation thing. One of my stories is a caper and I got criticized because I called it a mystery. You just can't please everybody. And speaking of genres, I just got selected to be in an anthology of cozy noir. LOL. That took a whole for me to get my brain around the idea. Once I did, I had a hoot writing that story!

bobbi c.
http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Bobbi,
You are a horrible person.  Tempting me with a recipe.  I picked up Aunt Jewel and the Purloined Pork Loin.  
It better be good.    

You aren't horrible, it's short, I'll read it tonight and review on Monday.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Bobbi,
> You are a horrible person. Tempting me with a recipe. I picked up Aunt Jewel and the Purloined Pork Loin.
> It better be good.
> 
> You aren't horrible, it's short, I'll read it tonight and review on Monday.


Wait...what? Pork loin? Who said pork loin?

(Off to find this purloined loin....)

Camille


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

bobbic said:


> I was reading the reviews on Amazon today for a book of "Christmas mysteries." Several of the reviewers gave the book just a couple of stars because they said it wasn't true mystery, it was crime. To them, a hardboiled or noir story isn't mystery. I've noticed, in general, that readers are getting very picky, or sensitive, to the whole genre designation thing. One of my stories is a caper and I got criticized because I called it a mystery. You just can't please everybody. And speaking of genres, I just got selected to be in an anthology of cozy noir. LOL. That took a whole for me to get my brain around the idea. Once I did, I had a hoot writing that story!
> 
> bobbi c.
> http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


Congrats on the anthology.  And yeah, I have a couple of caper stories as well.... you almost have to put them in the mystery or action/adventure categories.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Jena H said:


> Congrats on the anthology.  And yeah, I have a couple of caper stories as well.... you almost have to put them in the mystery or action/adventure categories.


This made me think....

I went and looked at a few of the caper novels out there. (Donald Westlake/Richard Stark, Elmore Leonard and a few others) and most of them are under just plain mystery (not subcategorized at all) and general 'Literature' which is even more uncategorized. Some were in the mystery sub-category "Crime" (which is where I would put it). Some which have a clear cross-over with another genre will have that genre too. (Humor, Western, were common)

And you wonder how many people complain that Donald Westlake is in mystery? Not many, I'll bet, although I'm sure that those who complain to us do not consider his books a part of the same genre as their favorite cozies. It's just that they can't change that.

But because Indies make a point of connecting with readers (and it's not just indies -- this is a famous phenomenon for all writers meeting the public) the readers want their pet peeves to be heard.

"I HATE it when the murder is on (or not on) the first page." "All fantasy must (or must not) start with a prologue."

And some of those who do this are exorcising some displaced aggression, but mostly it's just people who are glad to have their opinions heard, and have no real desire to change you or change how books are categorized.

As Indies, we get exposed to this more than others, AND we have fewer buffers (there is no experienced editor who knows from previous experience that the audience for the book is looking in "mystery" and so we shouldn't worry about the armchair quarterback).

It's crazy-making.

I think, in the end, all you can take from it is: take another look at your cover, title, blurb, and marketing to see if you are obviously misleading people, or if maybe they are misleading themselves by insisting that the world conform to their personal standards. If it's the former, fix it. If it's the latter, realize that you can't fix it, and move on.

Camille


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Camille,
That book has a hoohah too.    Bobbi great book.  Except some catfish walk not crawl lol.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Lucian said:


> Well, I'm trying.
> 
> But yeah, with the exception of Russell Blake and a handful of others, indies are getting their @$$es handed to them in our genre by the BIG 5. Part of it is a certain Big 5 author doesn't actually write his own books but puts his name on them and LOTS of readers like the ones he... produces? And he produces a lot! As a matter of fact, I think he's sold the most overall novels of anyone else in the twenty-first century. If he hasn't he's up there.
> 
> ...


I don't find the fact that the big 5 author you are referring doesn't write his own stuff nearly as disturbing as the fact that V.C. Andrews kept writing after she died. I still bought her stuff, though. It was a good copycat.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Bobbi,
> You are a horrible person. Tempting me with a recipe. I picked up Aunt Jewel and the Purloined Pork Loin.
> It better be good.
> 
> You aren't horrible, it's short, I'll read it tonight and review on Monday.


Oh jeez! I'm up early, barely had coffee, and read your first line and toppled over. LOL. Not really. I've had a lot of online trouble this week from other places. Thank you so much for buying my story! I hope you like it. I did notice the sale last night and really appreciate it. People tend to like my "Nameless" stories and that's why my new novella is set there. I have others in the series, too.
Thanks again!

bobbi c.
http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Congrats on the anthology.  And yeah, I have a couple of caper stories as well.... you almost have to put them in the mystery or action/adventure categories.


Jena, I've tried various categories and still haven't found quite the right one. I usually stick with mysteries, at least. I think it was in action/adventure at one time, or maybe now--can't remember. I'll go check. Thanks for the tip!

bobbi c.
http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> This made me think....
> 
> I went and looked at a few of the caper novels out there. (Donald Westlake/Richard Stark, Elmore Leonard and a few others) and most of them are under just plain mystery (not subcategorized at all) and general 'Literature' which is even more uncategorized. Some were in the mystery sub-category "Crime" (which is where I would put it). Some which have a clear cross-over with another genre will have that genre too. (Humor, Western, were common)
> 
> ...


Camille, you are so right about it being crazy-making. This week has been horrible for me and then a moderator of a Yahoo group went postal for no reason at all. In general, I do think readers are getting very picky because they can. I tend to lump all those things--capers, traditionals, cozies, hardboiled, etc.--into mysteries because to me, there's some mystery at the heart of the story that needs to be solved. But others don't see it that way. I think, in some ways, the whole "niche marketing" thing has come back to bite us on the butts. LOL

One of my short stories is more of a caper than a true whodunnit, and I really loved writing that. It's a bit "Evanovich-ish" and I love those kinds of fast-paced stories. But the readers seem to like the slower paced ones with recipes. 

bobbi c.
http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

katrina46 said:


> I don't find the fact that the big 5 author you are referring doesn't write his own stuff nearly as disturbing as the fact that V.C. Andrews kept writing after she died. I still bought her stuff, though. It was a good copycat.


That's interesting. The copycats I've read so far just don't cut it. I think I mentioned Dick Francis's son and Tony Hillerman's daughter above. I've also tried the "Robert B. Parker" books that are still being put out in the Jesse Stone and Hitch and Cole series, and they are pale imitations also. In fact the Jesse Stone ones were a bitter disappointment.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ellenoc said:


> That's interesting. The copycats I've read so far just don't cut it. I think I mentioned Dick Francis's son and Tony Hillerman's daughter above. I've also tried the "Robert B. Parker" books that are still being put out in the Jesse Stone and Hitch and Cole series, and they are pale imitations also. In fact the Jesse Stone ones were a bitter disappointment.


I wish this forum had a "yep" button. LOL. I was very disappointed in the Hillerman book, but I see it's won some awards, so others like it, I guess. And I agree about the Stone books.

bobbi c.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

bobbic said:


> Oh jeez! I'm up early, barely had coffee, and read your first line and toppled over. LOL. Not really. I've had a lot of online trouble this week from other places. Thank you so much for buying my story! I hope you like it. I did notice the sale last night and really appreciate it. People tend to like my "Nameless" stories and that's why my new novella is set there. I have others in the series, too.
> Thanks again!
> 
> bobbi c.
> http://www.kboards.com/book/?asin=B00M0DADFW


Book was great. Finished it in one sitting. Though after reading the bum thread here, your hoohah made me crack up.


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## Rob Smith (May 14, 2012)

> I've also tried the "Robert B. Parker" books that are still being put out in the Jesse Stone and Hitch and Cole series, and they are pale imitations also. In fact the Jesse Stone ones were a bitter disappointment.


On the other hand, I think that the Ace Atkins Spenser novels are better than most of Parker's later efforts. Just my opinion.


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## bubbagump22 (Aug 12, 2014)

It is because, unlike with romance/NA, Amazon was ready for the Mystery, Thriller, & Suspense indie breakout and picked up the potential powerhouses under their thriller imprint.  I think an Amazon dominated mystery/thriller/suspense is not far away.  They will, or have already, started to heavily manipulate the exposure of their own titles.  There are 6 in the top 20 right now, including #1, a pre-release by an unknown author (to me at least).


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

bubbagump22 said:


> It is because, unlike with romance/NA, Amazon was ready for the Mystery, Thriller, & Suspense indie breakout and picked up the potential powerhouses under their thriller imprint. I think an Amazon dominated mystery/thriller/suspense is not far away. They will, or have already, started to heavily manipulate the exposure of their own titles. There are 6 in the top 20 right now, including #1, a pre-release by an unknown author (to me at least).


Yes! I noticed that, too. Not fair, I say.

bobbi c.


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