# ACX royalties drop?



## laurelbeths (Nov 15, 2014)

Hello all! I'm a narrator new to this group. I stumbled on this forum looking for info on ACX, whispersync, and KU. I've narrated a number of books through ACX, some of them PFH and some royalty share. My royalties the past 3-4 months seem to have really dried up, although my sales numbers have risen. I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience, and if you know what the royalty calculation is for audiobooks bought through Whispersync and KU. Thanks!


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm surprised that your numbers have risen, many of us have seen our sales crash.  My sales have halved, and my royalties are down by 70% - painful.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I know that the royalty did drop a while ago -- I remember the announcement.

But there is also the issue of the Whispersync deals -- cheaper prices for people who have bought the ebook.  Some of these are really good deals.  The prices are in line with the price of indie ebooks, not audiobooks.

Frankly, I think the cheaper price would be fair, IF the royalty were the same as that of the kindle books.  The royalty they are offering seems to me to be okay if they were actually producing the audio, but not when the bulk of the work and expense is carried by the author, or the author and narrator together.

Add this to the fact that they don't allow digital audio books by other vendors, and I'm not sure I want to offer a book on Audible at all now.

Camille


----------



## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

Also, make sure you're looking at your month-to-date not life-to-date sales numbers. That's gotten me before. I got all excited about selling so many in one month, only to realize I was looking at life-to-date.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

My audio sales dropped 70% and kindle 40% when Amazon fiddled with the algos to prepare for the introduction of KU. It's a matter if visibility. Sales can still be had, but I have to promote 10 times more to get anything like the numbers I used to, and without price control at ACX/Audible there's nothing I can do to fix the slide.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> My audio sales dropped 70% and kindle 40% when Amazon fiddled with the algos to prepare for the introduction of KU. It's a matter if visibility. Sales can still be had, but I have to promote 10 times more to get anything like the numbers I used to, and without price control at ACX/Audible there's nothing I can do to fix the slide.


Are you saying that, even for you, the audio side has deteriorated to the point it could be viewed as non-viable commercially?


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

TobiasRoote said:


> Are you saying that, even for you, the audio side has deteriorated to the point it could be viewed as non-viable commercially?


I might be... okay here it is. I was doing 30 a day with 4 books. I now do 10 a day if I am lucky with 8 books. My production costs (depending on book length) $3000-$5000 per book. I still have 4 books in production because they are the only ones left NOT currently in audio from my backlist. So I had a plan (get them all in audio quick) and I am sticking to the plan. My deals are 7 years exclusive with ACX.

Now when I started, I hoped that I would enter profit within 2 years. It took 90 days. I was so pleased (and shocked) but I quickly became hyped and blase. I should have known that nothing lasts forever. BUT I didn't. I assumed 90 days was MY THING and that would be the standard. So keep spending money and get the books done. Anything after 90 days would be profit FOREVER! Muhahahaahah, cue mustache twirling.

Now the reality. The profits from the first 4 books have paid for 9 out of my entire 12 books, but the money is running out unless something happens soon. When I say running out, I don't mean "OMG, I have to sell the house and Shelby!" I mean the profit is running out, and the last 3 books will put me in a $10k hole roughly. So why am I doing it? Because, it doesn't matter if my 90 day plan is no longer viable, the original 2 year plan still is. In fact, looking at my current numbers, the 90 days becomes something like 200 days, still less than a year to enter profit. BUT, the more books I add, the less my numbers relate to the reality (because they are earning income, even if small amounts)

So new people should still do audio, but they should be aware that visibility is even more important to audio than even kindle is. Why? Because without price control, authors HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO POWER to affect it. There are no bookbubs, ENTs, or ANYTHING we can do except push on our kindle permafrees in hopes of getting spillover, build our newsletters (but most of my fans want Merki Wars in kindle and epub not audio) and pray. So unless you are selling big in kindle already, and have high visibility already, I would suggest being careful paying up front. I prefer up front, but I have money (for now) but no one should borrow money to do this. Audio isn't a sure thing (it never was of course) but now with KU and less visibility, I am seeing 50/50 in a new light.

I still PREFER up front production myself, but I can see a time when I might be forced into 50/50 split, especially on standalone titles. I wouldn't put anything in audio now that wasn't in a series with at least three books ready to enter audio together, and hopefully selling well enough to be in the top 100 of its selected main cats.


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

No one should commit serious money to audio at the 40% rate, and under the current circumstances where we are completely, totally, and utterly at the mercy of the wit and whim of ACX. 

For those of you that decided to wait it out - if you can't get a contract at a maximum of $100 pfh - forget it. At that rate, an 80,000 word novel would then cost you around $800 - $900. Even at that, some of you will never see that money back - ever. 

If I can explain how severe the algo change has been. Between July 1st and July 10th - I was in line for a $1500 month.  Last month, with more titles, I earned $130. I regard that as scandalous - with the only saving grace that I have my investment back already. 

Knowing what I know now - I say stay away from ACX unless is short titles and at $100 pfh max. I don't know who flicked that algo switch at ACX  - they have put many authors under financial pressure.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

EC said:


> No one should commit serious money to audio at the 40% rate, and under the current circumstances where we are completely, totally, and utterly at the mercy of the wit and whim of ACX.
> 
> For those of you that decided to wait it out - if you can't get a contract at a maximum of $100 pfh - forget it. At that rate, an 80,000 word novel would then cost you around $800 - $900. Even at that, some of you will never see that money back - ever.
> 
> ...


Not only authors. Narrators too. ACX visibility is based upon Amazon visibility, I am quite sure that the KU algo change blew my audio out of the water. I saw it happen overnight, a week before KU went live, sales fell off a cliff. ACX can afford out pain though, because Legacy pubs have finally woken up and are flooding into Audible. That's great for the customer, not so much for indies.


----------



## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

EC said:


> No one should commit serious money to audio at the 40% rate, and under the current circumstances where we are completely, totally, and utterly at the mercy of the wit and whim of ACX.
> 
> For those of you that decided to wait it out - if you can't get a contract at a maximum of $100 pfh - forget it. At that rate, an 80,000 word novel would then cost you around $800 - $900. Even at that, some of you will never see that money back - ever.
> 
> ...


$100 pfh seems very low. Or has that changed? I thought $200-400 was the norm.


----------



## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> ACX can afford out pain though, because Legacy pubs have finally woken up and are flooding into Audible. That's great for the customer, not so much for indies.


There's this...but unless ACX/Audible do something with prices the audio reader market won't grow with the title base. I talk to audio readers all the time and they all complain about one thing - PRICE. They jump on free audiobooks like ravenous wolves and I've noticed websites solely dedicated to listing trad pub audio promotions - free, $4.99, 50% off etc. KU with narration was a huge benefit for audio readers but the selection is still limited and it sucks for non-Apub imprint authors. If they'd just give us control of price we could turn this around and double ACX's bottom line in a year.


----------



## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> $100 pfh seems very low. Or has that changed? I thought $200-400 was the norm.


It's low by that professional society of narrator's standards but Indies have always been able to find price options which fit their budget. I have three narrators. Two cost me less than 100PFH and one is 200PFH. The quality is different but my bottom line is the same. I'm making low three figures/mo on audio with the books combined. It would be nice to get to $1,000+ a month on audio alone but ACX is making that difficult.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> $100 pfh seems very low. Or has that changed? I thought $200-400 was the norm.


It is low. 200-400 is the "norm" I hesitate to say its standard, but a lot of narrators would not take 100. I am of the opinion that you get what you pay for in audio narration, with one caveat: There are always exceptional narrators out there willing to do some projects really cheap, BUT they are rare and perhaps just starting out. They might want to build up a portfolio or something. I would not offer my narrator anything like 100. I don't want to lose a friend, or my teeth either haha! Luckily he lives on the other side of the pond!


----------



## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Laurel, sorry, no one seems to have answered your question.

"I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience, and if you know what the royalty calculation is for audiobooks bought through Whispersync and KU."

On your royalty report, you should have three columns (doing this from memory now) labeled ALOP, ALC, and AL, and also one for bounty. AL and ALOP are Audible listener purchases either with their membership credits or with an additional payment, respectively. ALC are a la carte (non-menber sales which I believe also includes third party sales). Bounty is where someone buys the book as their first purchase with their membership. 

These terms are used in the contract:

    "A La Carte Net Sales Receipts"means the monetary amount received by Audible from a la carte sales of each Unit, less any cash incentives, promotional discounts, sales or use taxes, excise taxes, value-added taxes, duties, and returns.

    "Membership Net Sales Receipts"means, for each Unit, the monetary amount obtained by multiplying the AudibleListener Allocation Factor (as defined below) by Audible's a la carte price for the Unit at the time the AudibleListener Allocation Factor is calculated.

    The "AudibleListener Allocation Factor"means the total of all membership sales receipts derived from sales of all content sold by Audible in the applicable accounting period, less any cash incentives, promotional discounts, device subsidies or rebates, sales or use taxes, excise taxes, value-added taxes, duties and returns, divided by the total a la carte value (as determined by Audible's applicable a la carte price for the Audiobook at the time the AudibleListener Allocation Factor is calculated) of the membership sales of all content sold by Audible in the applicable accounting period. 

ACX doesn't publish the terms of this calculation unfortunately. I don't have any audiobooks in Select or in KU, and for me, the "AudibleListener Allocation Factor" has worked out to about 50%.  I also don't have any books that can be whispersynched either.  I think that whispersync would count as a "cash incentive, promotional discount, device subsidies, or rebates" category, which can apply to both a la carte sales or audible listener sales.  So I suspect you might be seeing more KU books being sold, with whispersync, which comes in as a discounted sale. You need to know if your books are in KU or Select and if they are whispersync enabled.

What is really egregious however in this contract is that the audible listener allocation factor doesn't take into account member REVENUES, but member SALES. When a member doesn't buy a book during a month, that cash goes straight into Amazon's pockets. Even Spotify takes all membership revenues and applies that to the (pittance of a ) payment for artists. 

About 2/3 of my sales are via member credits. You might also be seeing a swing away from a la carte sales towards member credit sales which have a much higher discount.

Or you can just publish on cdbaby and get 90% royalty.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

It's beginning to sound to me like it isn't worth going with Audible when I do sound, even if it is the only (real) way to get a digital audiobook with Amazon.  I believe CDbaby can get me into iTunes....

Camille


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

laurelbeths said:


> Hello all! I'm a narrator new to this group. I stumbled on this forum looking for info on ACX, whispersync, and KU. I've narrated a number of books through ACX, some of them PFH and some royalty share. My royalties the past 3-4 months seem to have really dried up, although my sales numbers have risen. I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience, and if you know what the royalty calculation is for audiobooks bought through Whispersync and KU. Thanks!


If I'm reading this correctly, that your sales numbers are up and royalties are down, you should be able to look at your royalty report to see what's happening. There's two things that are possilbe. Your books may have been in an Audible promo, like buy 2 get one free. (read severely discounted) Or most of the sales are coming from whyspersync pricing, usually at $1.99. At best (depending on when the contract was put into place) you're making 50 cents on each sale of the book. It could be less if you're under the 20% royalty contract.


----------



## Kathryn Meyer Griffith (May 6, 2013)

Mark,
hey, I was just about to start a thread asking you what you do to or how you promote your Audible audio books? Then I saw this thread and thought I'd ask it here and also comment on the subject. 

I started  placing my 21 novels with ACX over a year and a half ago (my books were originally published as far back as 1984 and I had the audio book rights even though 15 of those books are still with publishers) and at first I had no problem getting narrator/producers to do my books for the 50%-90% Royalty Share. Unlike you I didn't have the income to pay up front, though, like you, I believe the narrators deserve it, I just couldn't swing it. I did Royalty Share for all. I am very grateful to all my narrators, though my first few ones turned out to not be as good as I'd thought and the low sales prove it. Wasted a couple of my wishes. Darn. Live and learn. And I did. By my sixth or seventh audio book I found great narrators.

Now I have 18 of my 21 audio books out and only a few are selling well at all. My Dinosaur Lake audios and my end-of-days saga A Time of Demons. I am so glad I didn't pay per hour because I never would have recouped those amounts. Anyway, then ACX cut the Royalty Share in March to a flat 40% and getting my last two audio books done have been a nightmare. Suddenly no narrator wants to do the Royalty Share any longer because they've discovered there's not much profit in it unless your author is a best-seller or big name. I have one book, a good book I feel, that was on a Royalty Share contract for a whole year as I waited for the narrator to do it (she had studio noise/then mold problems) with one excuse after another. Because we'd locked in the 50% before the cut I hung on to her way too long. Now she tells me she can't do it at all and I'm back at square one, but I've wasted a year and now I have to take the 40%. Thing is in this last year the other narrators have gotten even more gun shy. I pity anyone now trying to get a narrator with RS as they've gotten wise. 
My plan was to get all my 21 audio books out and then with that quantity rake in the money every month. It's not working that way, but at least all my income from ACX is pure profit and that's good.
Anyway, how do you promote your audio books, if at all?


----------



## laurelbeths (Nov 15, 2014)

Deanna Chase said:


> If I'm reading this correctly, that your sales numbers are up and royalties are down, you should be able to look at your royalty report to see what's happening. There's two things that are possilbe. Your books may have been in an Audible promo, like buy 2 get one free. (read severely discounted) Or most of the sales are coming from whyspersync pricing, usually at $1.99. At best (depending on when the contract was put into place) you're making 50 cents on each sale of the book. It could be less if you're under the 20% royalty contract.


Deanna, yes, that's exactly what's been happening. I noticed on my last few royalty reports that although my number of total books sold was consistent with what it had been (and has actually been rising over the past three months), my revenue sort of plateaued and last month actually went down.

In looking closer at the pricing for a number of my books, it looks like they must have been selling for somewhere around $1.99 each. I guess that's the whispersync? Now it looks like the only avenue of purchase that's really resulting in a reasonable royalty for me is Audible Listener. In both A la Carte and ALOP, I'm averaging royalties of about 50 cents per unit.

That's so frustrating! Royalty share used to seem like a good gamble as a narrator, but now I'm really rethinking it, especially if all my titles become whispersynced.


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> $100 pfh seems very low. Or has that changed? I thought $200-400 was the norm.


It's not low - and this is the reason why I stopped posting on ACX threads earlier this year. I was concerned that others were setting the bar way too high, and inducing people to associate quality with cost.

You have a no-risk, no cost audition process to go through - you will find many superb narrators at $100pfh - and I defy you to tell the difference between those narrators at that price range and $500pfh.

You should also be aware that ACX do have a tough quality control department in place - there's not many poor works getting through the system.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

laurelbeths said:


> Deanna, yes, that's exactly what's been happening. I noticed on my last few royalty reports that although my number of total books sold was consistent with what it had been (and has actually been rising over the past three months), my revenue sort of plateaued and last month actually went down.
> 
> In looking closer at the pricing for a number of my books, it looks like they must have been selling for somewhere around $1.99 each. I guess that's the whispersync? Now it looks like the only avenue of purchase that's really resulting in a reasonable royalty for me is Audible Listener. In both A la Carte and ALOP, I'm averaging royalties of about 50 cents per unit.
> 
> That's so frustrating! Royalty share used to seem like a good gamble as a narrator, but now I'm really rethinking it, especially if all my titles become whispersynced.


Yes, it's frustrating. I had a lot of sales on one of my titles last month. My income was less than half of what I anticipated because of whispersync.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Kathryn Meyer Griffith said:


> Mark,
> hey, I was just about to start a thread asking you what you do to or how you promote your Audible audio books? Then I saw this thread and thought I'd ask it here and also comment on the subject.
> 
> I started placing my 21 novels with ACX over a year and a half ago (my books were originally published as far back as 1984 and I had the audio book rights even though 15 of those books are still with publishers) and at first I had no problem getting narrator/producers to do my books for the 50%-90% Royalty Share. Unlike you I didn't have the income to pay up front, though, like you, I believe the narrators deserve it, I just couldn't swing it. I did Royalty Share for all. I am very grateful to all my narrators, though my first few ones turned out to not be as good as I'd thought and the low sales prove it. Wasted a couple of my wishes. Darn. Live and learn. And I did. By my sixth or seventh audio book I found great narrators.
> ...


I pasted this from the other thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,202094.msg2819002.html

Offer review copies to mailing list and the following. Also on your Facebook page etc

https://www.facebook.com/audiobookjungle
https://www.facebook.com/groups/freeaudiobookgiveways/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/freeaudible/

Paid advertising at http://www.audavoxx.com/ but I haven't had my first one yet. I don't know the results until I do.


----------



## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

EC said:


> It's not low - and this is the reason why I stopped posting on ACX threads earlier this year. I was concerned that others were setting the bar way too high, and inducing people to associate quality with cost.
> 
> You have a no-risk, no cost audition process to go through - you will find many superb narrators at $100pfh - and I defy you to tell the difference between those narrators at that price range and $500pfh.
> 
> You should also be aware that ACX do have a tough quality control department in place - there's not many poor works getting through the system.


I would say my experience is that once you cross the $100PFH level there are good options in narrators. My last book had a stipended on it, which drew narrators of high quality in (and not so high!). I did not have to pay them, because of the stipend, but I went to each of their pages and checked costs incase I want to get them for my next book also. These are people who were auditioning for my work, so I had real samples. After crossing the 100pfh range, the differences no longer tracked with price. Meaning, one guy at 125 was better than another guy at 250. Under 100pfh, well you MIGHT get lucky and find and up and coming star, but I did not. I tried too, I contact probably a dozen at 50pfh before I got the stipend. Nothing good came out of it.

Another thing I found was the higher priced narrators were are more professional in my dealings with them.

That is my personal experience, and YMMV and all that.


----------



## Kathryn Meyer Griffith (May 6, 2013)

Thanks Mark! I will check into those.
As a late note here...I checked my last (what I sold in October) ACX royalty statement and was shocked to see how many of my audio books were sold for $1.99 on Whispersync, and yep I get a whole 50 cents for a $24.95 priced over 10 hour audio book. I sold 89 audio books (half of them over 10 hours and originally priced at $24.95; only one at the new 20% flat rate) in October and was thrilled. Until I got the statement. I made $211.05 total. I feel SO BAD for my narrators now. I feel like I cheated them. They worked so hard and are getting so little.
Between Kindle Unlimited and Whispersync my income has fallen greatly.
Right now I figure the only thing to do is keep writing new books - or shorter ones- and take the lesser amounts of money. It occurred to me this morning that at this rate after everything is said and done with my eBooks and audio books soon I'll be getting the terribly low royalty rates I used to get with my legacy publishers 30 years ago- which were 4%-18%. I hope that doesn't happen, but I'm a realist and I see it coming.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Kathryn Meyer Griffith said:


> It occurred to me this morning that at this rate after everything is said and done with my eBooks and audio books soon I'll be getting the terribly low royalty rates I used to get with my legacy publishers 30 years ago- which were 4%-18%. I hope that doesn't happen, but I'm a realist and I see it coming.


Yep -- that's exactly it. ACX is acting like a traditional publisher. And I expect the result will be that the willing narrators (and authors) will dry up. Publishers, and those who have the resources in general to produce long ebooks, will be looking elsewhere for a better deal.

And....

You know, the audio world STILL looks to Apple as the primary source of digital audio. If vendors like CD Baby are getting audiobooks into iTunes, I suspect we'll see a draining of resources away from ACX. (Although I also suspect that, if that happens, Amazon will make some changes to bring them back before it gets serious. I could be wrong....)

Camille


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

VydorScope said:


> I would say my experience is that once you cross the $100PFH level there are good options in narrators. My last book had a stipended on it, which drew narrators of high quality in (and not so high!). I did not have to pay them, because of the stipend, but I went to each of their pages and checked costs incase I want to get them for my next book also. These are people who were auditioning for my work, so I had real samples. After crossing the 100pfh range, the differences no longer tracked with price. Meaning, one guy at 125 was better than another guy at 250. Under 100pfh, well you MIGHT get lucky and find and up and coming star, but I did not. I tried too, I contact probably a dozen at 50pfh before I got the stipend. Nothing good came out of it.
> 
> Another thing I found was the higher priced narrators were are more professional in my dealings with them.
> 
> That is my personal experience, and YMMV and all that.


We are fundamentally agreeing.

I did wait and get excellent narrators at less than the $100 mark - and as you pointed out, once above that point there really is no guarantee whatsoever that there is a relationship between cost and quality.

Some people are wildly overpaying for narration. There is no need for it - ACX provide you with a good, no-cost audition format. They also provide you with the ability to break the contract of you are not happy with the first fifteen minute.

You also have the ability to review the narration and request changes before payment. Once you are satisfied with the production, you still need to pass ACX quality control.

With just a little time and effort, as I said earlier - I defy anyone to tell the difference between a $100 per hour narrator and $500 per hour.

Seriously.


----------



## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

EC said:


> you will find many superb narrators at $100pfh


Why would I narrate your book at $100 pfh, when I could get a $100 pfh stipend AND royalties? Taking a flat $100 pfh is silly.


----------



## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

EC said:


> I defy anyone to tell the difference between a $100 per hour narrator and $500 per hour.


Ok, I'll play.

At $100 pfh you basically have a new narrator who is not properly outsourcing their editing and proofing. Which means there are going to be lots of mistakes. Going to proof it yourself? No problem! Feel free to spend your time doing that. But with a $500 narrator, they have the funds to hire a professional editor/proofer (costs about $100+ pfh) so you can do your job, namely writing.

At $100 pfh, you're going to have someone who has not invested heavily in their equipment. And, yes, there is a huge difference between a $50 radio shack mic recording in their living room and the $500 pfh narrator who has top flight equipment and a sound treated room.

At $100 pfh, you're going to have a part-time narrator who will only be able to record at night after their day job, meaning your book will take 5 weeks to record, edit and proof, as opposed to the $500 pfh narrator who will get it done in a week or two.

At $100 pfh, you will have a narrator with little experience. Unlike the $500 pfh narrator whose rate is justified by the fact that they've done 200 audiobooks. That experience alone makes them much better at what they do.

At $100 pfh your narrator has ZERO name recognition and thus won't help sell your book, whereas at $500 pfh, you can get the likes of Simon Vance, Scott Brick, Tavi Gilbert and Hillary Huber, whose name alone will sell more books.

Of course, you can cherry-pick the exceptions and find good quality at a low rate, just like you can find someone at $500 who stinks. but the overall graph would indicate, truthfully, that the higher paid narrators ($225+) deliver more professional results in a timely manner.


----------



## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

I would also like to add another problem with Whispersync.

Audiobook listeners are gaming the system by buying the ebook for $2.99 or whatever (which they have no intention of reading), then buying the audiobook for $1.99, saving considerable money over buying the audiobook alone, which is often $14.95 or above. In this manner, fewer and fewer audiobook listeners are paying full price for an audiobook, causing royalties to evaporate before your very eyes.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Okay, I will stand up for the Whispersync deals:

If the royalties weren't unconscionably low a discount would not be a bad thing.  Right now, formal audiobooks are a niche product, only for people who can afford them, or for those who accept the very limited selections at the library.  

But the audience for audio fiction is much much larger than that.  Most of them, though, don't even consider buying legal audiobooks (some go for piracy, others go for public domain stuff or radio or podcasts). Furthermore, there is also a large audience of fiction readers who won't even try audiobooks because they are so expensive.

Those whispersync deals are an effort to crack the latter of those audiences (and perhaps the former as well) - and if Amazon can get those readers into the habit of audiobooks, then the market will explode.

But the price is the limiting factor. It's just like publishers and their desire for 14.99 ebooks.  Yes, 1.99 for a 10 hour ebook is super low, even in the minds of bargain hunters -- but that's what it takes to convert the audience that will pay, say 6.99.

But to do this, Amazon/Audible needs to offer a fair royalty.  They will benefit in the long term, from doing this in bulk.  The individual authors, and voice artists, on the other hand, could be crushed by it, and never benefit from the effort.

Camille


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

JeffreyKafer said:


> Ok, I'll play.
> 
> At $100 pfh you basically have a new narrator who is not properly outsourcing their editing and proofing. Which means there are going to be lots of mistakes. Going to proof it yourself? No problem! Feel free to spend your time doing that. But with a $500 narrator, they have the funds to hire a professional editor/proofer (costs about $100+ pfh) so you can do your job, namely writing.
> 
> ...


And yet - many of us have hired these elusive quality $100 pfh narrators.

I get it - you have an agenda to force the pfh up. If I have an agenda - it's to let people know that the bar is nowhere near as high as you suggest. I advise anyone being asked to go over $200 pfh to walk away.

Far too expensive -and now with the algo change, far too risky.


----------



## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

EC said:


> I get it - you have an agenda to force the pfh up. If I have an agenda - it's to let people know that the bar is nowhere near as high as you suggest. I advise anyone being asked to go over $200 pfh to walk away.


I have no agenda. I'm Union. My rate is set. And as I said, you can certainly find narrators for $100 pfh, but it's more difficult and the pickings are much slimmer. More crud to wade through to find that golden voice.


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Fine. Nothing to add.


----------



## timothymckean (Dec 20, 2014)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> $100 pfh seems very low. Or has that changed? I thought $200-400 was the norm.


$100 IS VERY LOW. Consider that for every hour of audiobook the narrator is putting in about 6 hours of work. If you're paying $100 per finished hour, you're really paying about $16.50 an hour. Almost min wage in some states.


----------



## timothymckean (Dec 20, 2014)

I'm a narrator, so I don't know all about how it works on the author's side of ACX and Amazon, but can you opt out of Whispersync, an in so doing restore both your and your narrators royalties

The additional $.40 royalties we're getting from the $1.99 whispersync sales are not making up for the $2.00 - $5.00 royalties we were getting from real audible customers.

Also, as far as I understand, ACX titles are not included in Kindle Unlimited audio offerings so that shouldn't be a factor in audio royalties.  It's whispersync that's the killer for audiobooks.  I can buy the audiobook for $20, or the Kindle book for $2.99 and get the audio for another $1.99 ($5.00 for the same book)


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

timothymckean said:


> I'm a narrator, so I don't know all about how it works on the author's side of ACX and Amazon, but can you opt out of Whispersync, an in so doing restore both your and your narrators royalties
> 
> The additional $.40 royalties we're getting from the $1.99 whispersync sales are not making up for the $2.00 - $5.00 royalties we were getting from real audible customers.
> 
> Also, as far as I understand, ACX titles are not included in Kindle Unlimited audio offerings so that shouldn't be a factor in audio royalties. It's whispersync that's the killer for audiobooks. I can buy the audiobook for $20, or the Kindle book for $2.99 and get the audio for another $1.99 ($5.00 for the same book)


You can't opt out. I tried to break WS for ages, and it worked for a short time, but then it always came back. I gave up. WS impacted my royalties like this:

Before WS $7.04 per unit (average across all types of sale)
After WS $4.80 per unit (average across all types of sale)

Not all sales are WS, not all are member credit etc, so the average can vary, but that's what I'm seeing currently. The more WS sales there are, the lower the royalty goes, but I sell more units. The increase in sales doesn't cover the drop in revenue though. Kindle Unlimited halved my audio sales and my kindle sales. I am not in KU, but the hit on visibility and rankings crushed my burgeoning audio empire.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

Mark, are you able to decipher a WS sale between a full priced A la Carte? Just curious. I assume you are narrowing the investigation as far as possible by looking at the overall A la Carte section? This seems to be the place to detect the WS sale impact. I'm seeing the biggest decrease in the "A la Carte" royalty figures, but nowhere near as drastic (yet). Previously $9.21. Now $6.50. A substantial drop, but overall impact has been minimal. My ALC sales are a tenth of the rest.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Steven Konkoly said:


> Mark, are you able to decipher a WS sale between a full priced A la Carte? Just curious. I assume you are narrowing the investigation as far as possible by looking at the overall A la Carte section? This seems to be the place to detect the WS sale impact. I'm seeing the biggest decrease in the "A la Carte" royalty figures, but nowhere near as drastic (yet). Previously $9.21. Now $6.50. A substantial drop, but overall impact has been minimal. My ALC sales are a tenth of the rest.


Not really. A la Carte just means a non member sale. WS applies to members AND non members who already own the kindle edition. I have 283 ALC sales this year out of a total so far of 6063, but as I say, that just means those 283 aren't Audible members. I work out my royalty by adding the royalties of a series together, and then dividing by the number of books sold in that series that month. I have to do it that way because I have the escalator to consider. For example, some of my books are at 53% royalty, some at 52%, while others are still new at 50% So I get the average that month for each series, and compared it to the average I got before WS kicked in.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Now I'm glad I didn't bother to buy a new mic. Sounds like I'm making more doing the occasional radio commercial for local theater.


----------



## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

I released my first audiobook three weeks ago and as of today have 695 sales. I was thinking I was already well into the black until I read this thread. I won't see my first report until the end of January, and I completely misunderstood what the 40% royalty was paid on. (I thought it was paid on the $14.95 monthly membership.) I did not realize that the value of the Audible credit was much lower and fluctuates month to month. An ACX guy said it's usually around $8-$9, but there are seasonal variations. It reminds me of KU in that you don't know until after the fact what you are getting paid. Since it costs so much to get in the game, it now feels kinda scary.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

ALC: audiobook units bought by customers not in an AudibleListener membership
AL: audiobook units bought by AudibleListener members using their membership credits
ALOP: audiobook units bought by AudibleListener members but not using their membership credits

I see. So, the WS purchases can be buried in either ALOP or ALC.


----------



## Guest (Dec 29, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> Okay, I will stand up for the Whispersync deals:
> 
> If the royalties weren't unconscionably low a discount would not be a bad thing. Right now, formal audiobooks are a niche product, only for people who can afford them, or for those who accept the very limited selections at the library.
> 
> ...


This is, in my opinion, an excellent example of why it is better to leave niche markets alone than to try to turn them into commodities. Quantity is not a substitution for sustainability. The current system with ACX is simply not sustainable. I'm not interested in people who think $9.99 is "too expensive" for an audiobook. I think $500 is too expensive for sneakers. I doubt Nike cares and will in fact continue to sell Air Jordans at that cost. I'll never buy them, but they don't need me to. There are people who will pay that cost. Not everything needs to pander to the discount shopping crowd.

There is a trade off with the commoditization of audiobooks. For every new customer you gain you are also earning less per sale from your existing customer base. And at the prices ACX sells for, those ten new customers do not make up the difference. When I originally started with ACX, I could be sure to get $3-4 a sale on an audiobook. Now, those same titles are earning less than a $1. Yes, I'm getting more sales, but I am earning less money overall. I have to sell four or five times the number of books just to break even on what I did before. And since most of these new customers are bargain shoppers more interested in freebies, they aren't going to become dedicated fans. They are simply going to jump from freebie/bargain to freebie/bargain. Which means despite the increase in sales volume, I still can't afford to pay out of pocket for a narrator because it will take a year to make back my money. Assuming sales stay the same and don't flatline. Which they WILL, as ACX becomes more dominated by bargain hunters and more people willing to work for free hoping for "exposure" create audiobooks. And all the while, the fans that I do create are paying far below what they would otherwise willingly pay.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Mike McIntyre said:


> I released my first audiobook three weeks ago and as of today have 695 sales. I was thinking I was already well into the black until I read this thread. I won't see my first report until the end of January, and I completely misunderstood what the 40% royalty was paid on. (I thought it was paid on the $14.95 monthly membership.) I did not realize that the value of the Audible credit was much lower and fluctuates month to month. An ACX guy said it's usually around $8-$9, but there are seasonal variations. It reminds me of KU in that you don't know until after the fact what you are getting paid. Since it costs so much to get in the game, it now feels kinda scary.


Nooooo... It varies because of this: My book retails at $28 but is discounted to $20. I get 50%. So if EVERY sale was a non-member cash sale, I would get $10 per unit.

BUT I don't because...

Most sales are member sales, and they are worth less than non member sales. So 1 credit is worth about $15 roughly, and that means my 50% is worth $7.50. There are 3 kinds of sale. Non member cash sale, member cash sale, and member credit sale. When you take into account all the different types of subscription, price, whisper synch, and discount prices, the average royalty for my $28 retail priced book is $4.80 per unit. Cheaper books (shorter in hours) sell for less as well. My books are between 15hours and 18hours.

EDIT 695 sales in 6 weeks is good. That is what I got back in February this year when I started out in audio. At that pace, you should be in the black in 90 days if you paid up front the way I did. WS doesn't usually kick in until 3 months of sales are in. Just my observation. It's not a rule or anything.


----------



## Guest (Dec 29, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Nooooo... It varies because of this: My book retails at $28 but is discounted to $20. I get 50%. So if EVERY sale was a non-member cash sale, I would get $10 per unit.
> 
> BUT I don't because...
> 
> Most sales are member sales, and they are worth less than non member sales. So 1 credit is worth about $15 roughly, and that means my 50% is worth $7.50. There are 3 kinds of sale. Non member cash sale, member cash sale, and member credit sale. When you take into account all the different types of subscription, price, whisper synch, and discount prices, the average royalty for my $28 retail priced book is $4.80 per unit. Cheaper books (shorter in hours) sell for less as well. My books are between 15hours and 18hours.


And then of course you have the case where Audible encourages members to not use their credit by discounting your book to $1.99 (which they currently have my newest one listed for). So I'll get 40% of that. Because people will use their credit on the pricier trade published audiobooks and simply buy ours for bargain basement prices.

Yeah, I'm a bit cranky about this as I made the mistake of looking at my most recent statement over the weekend.


----------



## jegarlick (Jun 23, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Not only authors. Narrators too. ACX visibility is based upon Amazon visibility, I am quite sure that the KU algo change blew my audio out of the water. I saw it happen overnight, a week before KU went live, sales fell off a cliff. ACX can afford out pain though, because Legacy pubs have finally woken up and are flooding into Audible. That's great for the customer, not so much for indies.


This is so super good to know Mark, thanks for sharing all this...I was considering after attending an Indie event where they were touting audiobooks like the new gold rush. I was saving on the side to struggle to put one together...money better well spent.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And then of course you have the case where Audible encourages members to not use their credit by discounting your book to $1.99 (which they currently have my newest one listed for). So I'll get 40% of that. Because people will use their credit on the pricier trade published audiobooks and simply buy ours for bargain basement prices.
> 
> Yeah, I'm a bit cranky about this as I made the mistake of looking at my most recent statement over the weekend.


Exactly. ALL of mine are $1.99 to whisper synch buyers, and book 1 of all my series (currently 4 books) are permafree on kindle, so I get 53% of $1.99 (not 53% of $1.99 + kindle royalty). However, so far WS must be in the minority of my sales because my royalty is clinging on to the $4.80 figure.


----------



## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Nooooo... It varies because of this: My book retails at $28 but is discounted to $20. I get 50%. So if EVERY sale was a non-member cash sale, I would get $10 per unit.
> 
> BUT I don't because...
> 
> ...


Let me see if I have this right...
My book is listed at $19.95 but discounted to $17.95.
If I take the low end of the value of a credit quoted to me by the ACX agent ($, and my royalty is 40%, sales to members using credits would earn $3.20 (.4 x $.
My understanding is that members who buy my audiobook w/o using any credits get a 30% discount off of the list price. So those would earn $5.59 (.7 X $19.95 X .4).
And cash, non-member ala carte sales would earn $7.18 (.4 x $17.95).

Taking into account that the audiobook has yet to be whispersynced, and I don't see it discounted anywhere, do these calculations sound about right?



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And then of course you have the case where Audible encourages members to not use their credit by discounting your book to $1.99 (which they currently have my newest one listed for). So I'll get 40% of that. Because people will use their credit on the pricier trade published audiobooks and simply buy ours for bargain basement prices.
> 
> Yeah, I'm a bit cranky about this as I made the mistake of looking at my most recent statement over the weekend.


Wow, I didn't even know they did that. At least with whispersynch sales you also get the royalty off the ebook.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Mike McIntyre said:


> Let me see if I have this right...
> My book is listed at $19.95 but discounted to $17.95.
> If I take the low end of the value of a credit quoted to me by the ACX agent ($, and my royalty is 40%, sales to members using credits would earn $3.20 (.4 x $.
> My understanding is that members who buy my audiobook w/o using any credits get a 30% discount off of the list price. So those would earn $5.59 (.7 X $19.95 X .4).
> And cash, non-member ala carte sales would earn $7.18 (.4 x $17.95).


Yes, but until you get your first statement, you'll do better to assume that you'll get about $5 per sale. That will be about right, and hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised and will find it's a little bit higher.


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

timothymckean said:


> $100 IS VERY LOW. Consider that for every hour of audiobook the narrator is putting in about 6 hours of work. If you're paying $100 per finished hour, you're really paying about $16.50 an hour. Almost min wage in some states.


What state has a $16.50 an hour minimum wage? I live in the Seattle area where recently a $15 an hour minimum wage was implemented in some areas.


----------



## timothymckean (Dec 20, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> What state has a $16.50 an hour minimum wage? I live in the Seattle area where recently a $15 an hour minimum wage was implemented in some areas.


Isn't $16.50 pretty close to $15? For a professional full-time narrator who has invested in training, microphones and recording equipment, sound treated studio environment and may or may not need to hire an editor or proofer once they're done recording, making $1.50/ hour more than the high school kid delivering his pizza is a joke. And the pizza kid is guaranteed payment at the end of his shift, it's not dependent on the long range sales of the pizza.

Would you work for $16.50 an hour?


----------



## timothymckean (Dec 20, 2014)

Mike McIntyre said:


> Let me see if I have this right...
> My book is listed at $19.95 but discounted to $17.95.
> If I take the low end of the value of a credit quoted to me by the ACX agent ($, and my royalty is 40%, sales to members using credits would earn $3.20 (.4 x $.
> My understanding is that members who buy my audiobook w/o using any credits get a 30% discount off of the list price. So those would earn $5.59 (.7 X $19.95 X .4).
> ...


Also keep in mind that you will be splitting that 50/50 with the narrator, so you're only getting half of that, unless you've paid your narrator outright and then you keep all the 40%.

Audiobooks can make you good money if you think you move decent numbers.


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

timothymckean said:


> Isn't $16.50 pretty close to $15? For a professional full-time narrator who has invested in training, microphones and recording equipment, sound treated studio environment and may or may not need to hire an editor or proofer once they're done recording, making $1.50/ hour more than the high school kid delivering his pizza is a joke. And the pizza kid is guaranteed payment at the end of his shift, it's not dependent on the long range sales of the pizza.
> 
> Would you work for $16.50 an hour?


That's not a state minimum wage. There are a handful of jurisdictions (maybe 3) where a $15 minimum wage passed. My first job at Amazon paid me $15 an hour, so yes, I would work for $16.50. Washington State's minimum wage is the highest of all states at $9.47 (D.C. having the highest in the nation). There are a ton of hard working people making less than $16.50 an hour. I understand wanting to be paid a living wage, but there are many, many hardworking and qualified people not making $16.50 an hour.


----------



## Guest (Dec 29, 2014)

timothymckean said:


> Isn't $16.50 pretty close to $15? For a professional full-time narrator who has invested in training, microphones and recording equipment, sound treated studio environment and may or may not need to hire an editor or proofer once they're done recording, making $1.50/ hour more than the high school kid delivering his pizza is a joke. And the pizza kid is guaranteed payment at the end of his shift, it's not dependent on the long range sales of the pizza.
> 
> Would you work for $16.50 an hour?


That "high school kid" delivering your pizza is probably:

A. not a kid. Probably an adult who has been unable to find full time employment
B. is most likely paying out of pocket for his own gas and maintenance on his vehicle and not getting fully compensated by his employer
C. assuming, of course, his employer classifies him as an employee and not an independent contractor. Which means he may not even be getting minimum wage, but a flat rate for each delivery he makes.

I'm all about people being paid a fair wage. But engaging in class-ism and assuming working class people aren't "worth" as much as you doesn't sit well with me. Particularly considering the number of very hard-working friends I have who would right now kill for a job that paid $16.50 an hour.


----------



## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

timothymckean said:


> Also keep in mind that you will be splitting that 50/50 with the narrator, so you're only getting half of that, unless you've paid your narrator outright and then you keep all the 40%.
> 
> Audiobooks can make you good money if you think you move decent numbers.


I paid upfront. It's a chunk of change, but I weighed that against the 7 years of a 50/50 split and the potential upside of going it alone. Then again, that was before I knew about the value of credits, whispersynch, and the potential for Audible to slap a deep discount on it at any time.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> That "high school kid" delivering your pizza is probably:
> 
> A. not a kid. Probably an adult who has been unable to find full time employment
> B. is most likely paying out of pocket for his own gas and maintenance on his vehicle and not getting fully compensated by his employer
> ...


While I usually agree with Julie on this -- and I do in terms of regular wages -- we have to remember that this is a freelance hour. It's NOT a wage.

As with those pizza delivering involuntary independent contractors, the real wage you earn as a freelancer/independent contractor is closer to half what the hourly work wage is. Because there are expenses, and down time and sick leave and all the things that are normally covered by the employer.

So when someone is charging 16.50 per billable hour, they are likely making 8.25.

Camille


----------



## timothymckean (Dec 20, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm all about people being paid a fair wage. But engaging in class-ism and assuming working class people aren't "worth" as much as you doesn't sit well with me.


I didn't intend any class-ism, just perspective on what someone's time, skill, and experience are worth.



> Particularly considering the number of very hard-working friends I have who would right now kill for a job that paid $16.50 an hour.


Why haven't they signed up at ACX? It's free to make an account. Right now there are about 100 titles offering at least $100 pfh.


----------



## Guest (Dec 29, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> While I usually agree with ***** on this -- and I do in terms of regular wages -- we have to remember that this is a freelance hour. It's NOT a wage.


I get that. I actually don't disagree with the greater point. But when a person decides to compare freelance wages to regular wages, and then makes a slap at people who work for those regular wages, that needs to be pointed out. He could have very easily simply noted that he has expenses that need to be covered as well as his time and made a much more valid point. He's NOT someone working for an hourly wage. He is a business person. So there is no reason to compare himself to someone working a blue collar job. It just rubs me the wrong way because there is this not-so-subtle assumption that people who do manual labor or work in blue collar industries are "unskilled" and "uneducated" and therefore "unworthy." But this is probably all a discussion for another thread.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Man, if you guys knew what most VAs (not just narrators, but voice actors in general) got paid and how sporadic the work was...

Let's just say that if it were my main source of income, I would shank a man to make a regular $16.50 an hour. Shank him in front of his mama.

Like authors, no one really wants to pay VAs, they're an inconvenient speedbump to having that thing they want and as such, they'll pay as little as they can get. And if you're not in a huge city, well say hello to unpaid hours sitting and waiting for a recording studio (the only studio--the only ROOM that can do it) in the entire county to free up.


----------



## daffodils321 (Oct 31, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Not only authors. Narrators too. ACX visibility is based upon Amazon visibility, I am quite sure that the KU algo change blew my audio out of the water. I saw it happen overnight, a week before KU went live, sales fell off a cliff. ACX can afford out pain though, because Legacy pubs have finally woken up and are flooding into Audible. That's great for the customer, not so much for indies.


What do you mean by Legacy pubs? The Big 5 publishing backlists?


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Yes, ACX titles are now competing with Audible Studios books, traditionally-published books, and Amazon-published books (which are available to borrow via KU, as ACX titles are not). Audio buyers seem to be more traditional, more attracted to tradpubbed books. All of those entities will also have a voice advocating for them that Sales & Marketing at Audible will be listening to in making their merchandising decisions. That's why I don't mind WhisperSync at all. Those "bonus borrows" make my books more visible on Audible, and visibility is key. 

I have to say that, if I were making the decision today, I wouldn't be doing audio versions on my own unless I were already selling very, very well. And if you are selling very, very well, Audible Studios or another audio publisher may well approach you for your audio rights--which is, of course, a much smaller royalty, but also doesn't carry the huge risk and cash outlay. An interesting tradeoff. In the long run, you may well still come out ahead doing the audio yourself, but--it's expensive! (Unless you do royalty share, and I think many narrators are becoming justifiably wary of royalty share.)

I'll also say that, in my experience and looking at the books that are doing very well in audio, having a top-quality narrator is well worth the money. Excellent narration makes a so-so book good, and a good book great, which can make you punch above your weight in audio and attract some more of that Audible pixie dust that is "merchandising." Narration is half of the audio listening experience, and great actors (because that's what they are) don't come cheap. You're competing with Audible Studios, which I believe pays $300 PFH and keeps those top professional narrators well-employed (job security). My 2 cents.


----------



## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Mike McIntyre said:


> I released my first audiobook three weeks ago and as of today have 695 sales. I was thinking I was already well into the black until I read this thread.


I still think you will be in the black. WS is touted as the worst thing ever created (right behind KU), but over the 50+ royalty-share titles I've narrated, I'm still averaging $2-$3 per unit (Which would be double for you, if you paid outright)


----------



## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> I'll also say that, in my experience and looking at the books that are doing very well in audio, having a top-quality narrator is well worth the money. Excellent narration makes a so-so book good, and a good book great, which can make you punch above your weight in audio and attract some more of that Audible pixie dust that is "merchandising." Narration is half of the audio listening experience, and great actors (because that's what they are) don't come cheap.


You are my new best friend.



Rosalind James said:


> You're competing with Audible Studios, which I believe pays $300 PFH and keeps those top professional narrators well-employed (job security). My 2 cents.


The Union rate with Audible is actually $225 +12.5% to the actor's Pension and Health fund. Other publishers have different agreed upon rates.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

daffodils321 said:


> What do you mean by Legacy pubs? The Big 5 publishing backlists?


Yes.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

JeffreyKafer said:


> You are my new best friend.
> 
> The Union rate with Audible is actually $225 +12.5% to the actor's Pension and Health fund. Other publishers have different agreed upon rates.


Thanks for the correction! So that's about $255 altogether. But Audible can offer the narrator steadier work, which matters. I've found that the narrators I'm interested in tend to charge about $300 PFH minimum.


----------



## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> Thanks for the correction! So that's about $255 altogether. But Audible can offer the narrator steadier work, which matters. I've found that the narrators I'm interested in tend to charge about $300 PFH minimum.


Yep, we charge higher than scale because we have to outsource our editing and proofing. When we narrate for Audible and other publishers, we just narrate and they do all the post production work.

So on ACX, if we want to make union scale, here's the breakdown:

$225 pfh to the narrator
$75 pfh to the editor/proofer
12.5% to Pension and Health (Actors deserve to have healthcare and retirement)
5% to the paymaster service (This is not optional as the union requires it)

So if you're paying $300 pfh, you're getting a good deal considering that the actor has to eat the P&H and the payroll service fee. Hopefully others can see why paying your narrator $100 pfh is really putting the screws to them.


----------



## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

The market for print and e-books is far larger than for audiobooks. US publishers netted about $27B in 2013 (of which about $14B was Trade), but about $1B in audiobook sales (per APA). The number of titles available on audio is proportionately limited, but the potential for a breakout success is also limited. So when an author looks at spending thousands of dollars on narration, that expenditure has to be weighed against putting those resources into building their sales in the larger marketplace, not just whether they will break even. It has to recoup not only the production cost, but the lost market share in the e-book and print market had the same dollars been spent either on promotion or developing new work.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

555aaa said:


> The market for print and e-books is far larger than for audiobooks.


I have a feeling, though, that Amazon is changing that with these Whispersync deals. I never bought audiobooks before because I couldn't afford them. But when there is a whispersync deal, I buy them all the time.

Right now, the authors and publishers are feeling the pinch (and so is Audible and Amazon) in that they aren't yet making up for the loss of higher revenue from the existing high-paying audience -- but that's exactly what the publishers said about low priced ebooks. We indies understood at that time that Amazon was building a new audience.

This will stabilize, and after that I do think that we'll see a bigger audience that can support a lower price.

Unfortunately, when Audible cut the royalty rates, that was a double whammy to both authors and narrators. -- but worse for the narrators, who don't earn anything from the ebook when there is a link there. They could have had better timing.

Camille


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

555aaa said:


> The market for print and e-books is far larger than for audiobooks. US publishers netted about $27B in 2013 (of which about $14B was Trade), but about $1B in audiobook sales (per APA). The number of titles available on audio is proportionately limited, but the potential for a breakout success is also limited. So when an author looks at spending thousands of dollars on narration, that expenditure has to be weighed against putting those resources into building their sales in the larger marketplace, not just whether they will break even. It has to recoup not only the production cost, but the lost market share in the e-book and print market had the same dollars been spent either on promotion or developing new work.


I spent rough $33,000 on audio production in 2014. I would spend at most $5000 on an entire year of marketing and probably not close to that. I do replace covers when I think trends are drifting from where mine are aimed etc. Anyway, despite the the costs, I'm in profit. Audio has slowed for me now, but it is still 35% of my overall income. The last time I looked, Jan-Dec 2014 Amazon stores were 55%, Audible 35%, Google 6%, and the others stores took the rest.

So all in all, Audio had been well worth the cost FOR ME. But not all genres sell the same. I have found my sci-fi makes up most of my audio sales, followed by my two YA titles, and my two Urban fantasy/shifter titles bringing up the rear. I pay $325pfh and was aiming for $300 when I first started researching audio. There are opinions either way, but I can only say that I'm very happy with the results. I listen to a LOT of audio, and I know what I think quality audiobooks should sound like.

Production costs are why royalty share is there. If a narrator won't take classic royalty share, perhaps offering a one time up front fee plus royalty share will tip the scales in your favour. So if a book would normally costs $2500, perhaps offering $1000 plus a shorter term of royalty share would work. Of course, that sort of thing would require contracts outside of the ACX system, and that would personally put me off. I am all for the easy peasy life of clicking ACX buttons


----------



## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> If a narrator won't take classic royalty share, perhaps offering a one time up front fee plus royalty share will tip the scales in your favour.


This is growing in popularity with narrators as audible gets tighter with their stipend program. Many narrators who wouldn't take on a straight royalty share are more interested in a pfh plus royalty scheme.


----------



## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

JeffreyKafer said:


> This is growing in popularity with narrators as audible gets tighter with their stipend program. Many narrators who wouldn't take on a straight royalty share are more interested in a pfh plus royalty scheme.


This is how my first book went since I had the stipend, and now I feel really bad for my narrator. Book 1 is permafree as an ebook, because it is my funnel into my series. I have the sales of seven other books to cover that free book. Calculated gamble that has worked out very well in the ebook world for me.

When the stipend came, I had narrators coming out of the woodwork for small upfront cash+royalty share. The book hit, was selling well at $19.99, and then.. BOOM whisper synced to $1.99. So do the math...

20% of free+$1.99 = 40 CENTS a sale.

Ouch.

For ME it matters little as I was zero out of pocket, and I have already written off the first book as a loss leader. The narrator took most of the risk in this case, betting on ACX's stipend magic I guess.

I _was_ hoping to make enough off book 1 to pay for book 2, which will not happen now. Even If I sell 500 copies that is only enough for what, maybe ONE hour of book 2? Not even at some of the prices mentioned in this thread so far. So doing the simple math, book 2 would need *FIVE THOUSAND* sales of book 1 to cover its production @ 200pfh.

Now, I already paid for book 2 out of pocket... wanting it out before Christmas, but the example shows that right now audio is far from a sure thing. FAR.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> This is how my first book went since I had the stipend, and now I feel really bad for my narrator. Book 1 is permafree as an ebook, because it is my funnel into my series. I have the sales of seven other books to cover that free book. Calculated gamble that has worked out very well in the ebook world for me.
> 
> When the stipend came, I had narrators coming out of the woodwork for small upfront cash+royalty share. The book hit, was selling well at $19.99, and then.. BOOM whisper synced to $1.99. So do the math...
> 
> ...


It's not that bad, Vince. 500 sales in your example. Maybe 50 will be WS. If that weren't true, my average Royalty wouldn't be $4.80 but would instead be $1 and it's not.


----------



## BokkenRecord (Nov 17, 2013)

Mark - your figures are given as payment per hour of finished recording. Typically how many words do you find that works out per hour?


----------



## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

JohnMarch said:


> Mark - your figures are given as payment per hour of finished recording. Typically how many words do you find that works out per hour?


I am not Mark, and there are lots of factors but here:

Book 1 - 8 hours 44 mins, 85,110 words 
Book 2 - 8 hours 46 mins, 87,760 words

Average for those numbers : 9840 Words per hour.

So probably guess 9000-11000 words per hour based only on that small sample.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JohnMarch said:


> Mark - your figures are given as payment per hour of finished recording. Typically how many words do you find that works out per hour?


I just had a look. My narrator seems pretty consistent and reads 9,500 words per hour


----------



## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

VydorScope said:


> I am not Mark, and there are lots of factors but here:
> 
> Book 1 - 8 hours 44 mins, 85,110 words
> Book 2 - 8 hours 46 mins, 87,760 words
> ...





Mark E. Cooper said:


> I just had a look. My narrator seems pretty consistent and reads 9,500 words per hour


Not far off from mine then. So perhaps the range is 9000-10000 words per hour.


----------

