# Open letter to all the authors at KindleBards:\



## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

You do not get many chances to make good early impressions on potential readers. I know that much toil and tears go into each novel, book, short story or what ever you are putting into the public eye, I've seen covers, blurbs, fonts and almost everything imaginable discussed all to the point of getting the reader to try the book or make a sale.But I see something almost daily here on KindleBoards that prevents you from making a sale to me and quite possible to many others. It is something you have complete control over. Whenever I see a thread title with misspelled or misused words, I cringe.To me it is like the blurb on Amazon, you want it to attract, not repel. I know that while posting we all let our mind get ahead of our hands and since it is casual writing, a few misspells or typos don't really detract from what you are getting across.  But if the thread title has typos and misspells, I get the feeling that the writer doesn't care that much about their work, so why should I bother to open the thread, let alone, read the posts.

Yes it is probably very petty of me to ignore the output of several writers here at KB, based on things like this or their behavior towards reviewers or bad covers or what ever turns me sour, but there are far more books available than I will ever be able to read in what's left of my lifetime, however long that is. If you can't make it right ast the beginning, you lost me as a potential reader, because I wont read your witty comments or perfect Bon Mot, I'll move on to the next post to see if it catches my attention and makes me click on a book in the signature line..


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

I sympathize with your sentiments and, for my part, I try to avoid typos. But KB is a message board, man, not a friggin' spelling contest. And once you turn it into one, you'll have people pointing out things like the fact that "misspells" is a verb, not a noun.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

intinst said:


> You do not get many chances to make good early impressions on potential readers. I know that much toil and tears go into each novel, book, short story or what ever you are putting into the public eye, I've seen covers, blurbs, fonts and almost everything imaginable discussed all to the point of getting the reader to try the book or make a sale.But I see something almost daily here on KindleBoards that prevents you from making a sale to me and quite possible to many others. It is something you have complete control over. Whenever I see a thread title with misspelled or misused words, I cringe.To me it is like the blurb on Amazon, you want it to attract, not repel. I know that while posting we all let our mind get ahead of our hands and _*since*_ it is casual writing, a few *misspells *or typos don't really detract from what you are getting across. But if the thread title has typos and _*misspells*_, I get the feeling that the writer doesn't care that much about their work, so why should I bother to open the thread, let alone, read the posts.
> 
> Yes it is probably very petty of me to ignore the output of several writers here at KB, based on things like this or their behavior towards reviewers or bad covers or what ever turns me sour, but there are far more books available than I will ever be able to read in what's left of my lifetime, however long that is. If you can't make it right _*ast *_the beginning, you lost me as a potential reader, because I wont read your witty comments or perfect Bon Mot, I'll move on to the next post to see if it catches my attention and makes me click on a book in the signature line..


KindleBards? Just sayin'...


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## MJWare (Jun 25, 2010)

You should be aware that some of us have writing disabilities that cause us to commit the types of errors you are referring to.

So, at least for some of us, it's *not* something we have complete control over.

I re-read each of my posts at least three times and often misspelled, missing, or wrong words still sneak in--that's just a fact, though that I do my best to mitigate them.

If it makes you prejudiced towards my books, no skin off my back--if anything you're the one missing out. ;-)
I'm sure many other people don't understand that some people's brain's have trouble getting words onto paper, and feel the same way as you.

Not calling you a jerk or anything like that--your feelings are, I think, shared by many--I just want to point out that in many cases there's a cause for this, that is out of the author's control.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

okay, to the writers reading this thread...
1) you guys are the professionals.  intinst and i are not.  we do not try and make our living selling things that we wrote to people
2) pointing out errors in his first post is just petty, and will not gain you any fans.
3) yes, this is a forum, but if you're trying to sound professional, remember that you're professional face needs to be showing at all time.  if i see misspellings in thread titles, it doesn't look professional, and i fear that the same problems will be in your books.
4) for those who don't know it, you CAN edit your thread titles.  simply go into your first post in the thread and fix it.  
5) oh, and my not using capitals is a choice i consciously make, i'm just an iconoclast about that.  but as i said, i don't try and sell people my books.
6)  lastly, please remember, that once you lose a customer, you're not getting him/her back.  so consider carefully what you say here, there are as many readers as writers on KB, and while many don't post in the WC, they do read what YOU post.  knee jerk reactions will not gain you readers. 
7) and remember, it's NOT posts he's mentioning, it's thread titles.  those should be short enough that catching errors should not be a big deal.  yeah, once in a while it'll happen, but if it happens on a thread that's trying to sell me a book, it's going to stick out.

and mjaware, i don't want to get into a not name-calling contest, because the mods won't like it, but saying you're not calling someone a jerk really doesn't help your attempt at professionalism.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

He's not commenting on POSTS.  He's commenting on thread titles.  And if it pokes the bears into reading their thread titles more closely, great.

Oh, and if you're taking it so personally, maybe it's because you've realized there's a problem?


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

telracs said:


> okay, to the writers reading this thread...
> 1) you guys are the professionals. intinst and i are not. we do not try and make our living selling things that we wrote to people
> 2) pointing out errors in his first post is just petty, and will not gain you any fans.
> 3) yes, this is a forum, but if you're trying to sound professional, remember that you're professional face needs to be showing at all time. if i see misspellings in thread titles, it doesn't look professional, and i fear that the same problems will be in your books.
> ...


+1

If you can't take the time to worry about the small things, why should we readers think you'll care about the big things?


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

C'mon now people. The "Kindlebards" was obviously a joke.


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## MJWare (Jun 25, 2010)

telracs said:


> 3) sorry, mjaware, but you DO have control. it's called proofing. once you type it, read it again and fix it if there are errors. if you misspell things here, i'm going to assume you do the same in your published works.


This is a very common misunderstanding. Dysgraphia is not known by many people outside of special education circles, but it's a very real, and sometimes very debilitating disorder.

When a Dysgaphic writer proof reads his own sentences his brain/eyes show him the sentence the way he meant to write it. He doesn't see the errors so can't proof his own work.

Here's a common example from school:

Teachers says, "Michael, please write the following sentence: _I like to read much better than write._"
I might write the sentence like this: I like read much better that write.
The teacher would then ask me to re-read it aloud. I'd look at it and say, "I like to read much better than write."
Getting frustrated, she'd tell me, "that's what you were suppose to write, not what you actually wrote." She'd cover up her original sentence so I couldn't see it and instruct me to re-read mine, one-word-at-a-time.
And I would read: I-like-to-read-much-better-than-write.

At this point the teacher is pretty pissed. Grabs me by the arm and says, "Look stupid," as she point with her pencil "_I like read much better that write_. Do you see that? You're missing the word _to_ and have _that_ when it should be _than_. Do you need to have your glasses checked?"

At this point, as a kid I don't know what to think except that maybe the teacher hates me and changed the sentence when I wasn't looking. After all our eyes don't lie to us do they? Truth is they do--just like people with Dyslexia (which is much more well know).



telracs said:


> ..if you misspell things here, i'm going to assume you do the same in your published works.


That's a poor assumption. I've developed techniques for cleaning up my manuscripts and go through an extra round or two of editing before publishing.

I can't guarantee you won't find any errors, but they'll be few.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

I was posting about thread topic, not the body of the post. You know, the part that is supposed to attract me to a thread? When you use a word twice in the tread topic and spell it differently each time, it's kinda obvious, don't you think? If it makes you feel better to belittle me because of my own spelling problems, go for it. One of the least of my worries, I'll never be a writer for this and many other reasons. But, I did buy over one hundred e-books this year and have read and enjoyed most of them. Almost all from someone here at KB. Can't even be bothered to read your own thread topic? Yours won't be one of them, simple as that.


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## MJWare (Jun 25, 2010)

intinst said:


> I was posting about thread topic, not the body of the post. You know, the part that is supposed to attract me to a thread? When you use a word twice in the tread topic and spell it differently each time, it's kinda obvious, don't you think? If it makes you feel better to belittle me because of my own spelling problems, go for it. One of the least of my worries, I'll never be a writer for this and many other reasons. But, I did buy over one hundred e-books this year and have read and enjoyed most of them. Almost all from someone here at KB. Can't even be bothered to read your own thread topic? Yours won't be one of them, simple as that.


I'm bowing out now, but wanted to say I hope you didn't feel like I belittled you, if so it was not intended and I'm apologize.

Also, I can easilly spell one word deferent in the same sentance and non kntice is when I re-read (BTW: here's my non-proofed sentence, looks like great fun huh!)


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

intinst said:


> I was posting about thread topic, not the body of the post. You know, the part that is supposed to attract me to a thread? When you use a word twice in the tread topic and spell it differently each time, it's kinda obvious, don't you think? If it makes you feel better to belittle me because of my own spelling problems, go for it. One of the least of my worries, I'll never be a writer for this and many other reasons. But, I did buy over one hundred e-books this year and have read and enjoyed most of them. Almost all from someone here at KB. Can't even be bothered to read your own thread topic? Yours won't be one of them, simple as that.


Intinst, people make typos--all kinds of people, including professionals. There is a reason why copy-editing is also a profession. It's because catching typos and grammatical errors is difficult. Careful and educated people read over typos all the time. If at some point I make a typo in a title and you think that means you should never buy one of my books, I'll just have to live with it. Honestly, of all the reasons someone might not buy one of my novels, that is one of the most insignificant I can imagine. Sure, if I notice a typo I'll correct it, but on message boards they are simply not worth worrying about.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Going to be honest here, I don't come to Kindleboards to sell books. I mean, sure, people have bought my books here, but this is mainly a cool hangout for me, where I let my non-hair down and generally relax, post pics of Hugh Howey, keep up to date with news in the industry, learn new things and generally relax and have fun. I only post in the Writer's Cafe.

To me this is more the water cooler out the back of the office, although I totally know readers sneak in here from time to time.


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## Daphne (May 27, 2010)

Coincidentally, just before I read this thread I was listening to a news item on the BBC about schools employing proofreaders to correct spelling and grammatical errors in school reports, which opened the debate as to whether the schools should be able to do this without outside help. I'm not sure if this proves that even professionals need proofreaders or that standards have fallen in schools. However, I do vividly remember receiving a communication from my son's _English_ teacher with obvious grammatical errors. I had a strong urge to take out a red pen and return it with corrections.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/918650-school-forced-to-bring-in-proofreaders-to-check-teachers-spelling


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Daphne said:


> Coincidentally, just before I read this thread I was listening to a news item on the BBC about schools employing proofreaders to correct spelling and grammar errors in school reports, which opened the debate as to whether the schools should be able to do this without outside help. I'm not sure if this proves that even professionals need proofreaders or that standards have fallen in schools. However, I do vividly remember receiving a communication from my son's _English_ teacher with obvious grammatical errors. I had a strong urge to take out a red pen and return it with corrections.
> 
> http://www.metro.co.uk/news/918650-school-forced-to-bring-in-proofreaders-to-check-teachers-spelling


People have a very difficult time seeing their own errors. It is a human tendency to see what you meant rather than what you wrote.

However, I have to agree with David that I don't come here to sell books. It's nice if I sell a few which is why they're in my sig, but I don't particularly expect to and it's not going to affect my posting one way or the other. (That's a run-on sentence. I'm not correcting it.  )


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Add me to the list of those who don't come here to sell books (though it's nice if it happens  ). I like the Cafe for learning about writing, covers and general publishing, and congratulating or commiserating with fellow indies. It's about the only place we can do that, without getting our hands slapped.

*I agree that as writers we should take care about our public image, but I cut people some slack on this board. Now, if it's one of the posts over at the Book Bazaar, advertising a book, then I expect the writer to put up clean copy, because that's business.*

And you don't want to know how many times I've corrected my typing on this post alone, due to arthritis and carpal tunnel syndrome in my hands--and because of how much faster my brain works than my fingers. I can't help editing myself, either.


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## Revolution (Sep 17, 2012)

Oh, lol

"Kindlebards"

Where I live people put in place "bards" at the end of words to insinuate bastards, which is what I thought you were doing at first  

But yeah, I'm not so worried with spelling on here, but I can assure you I do the utmost to keep my MS's free of errors to the best of my ability. 


Edit: gramatical error... oh dear, I just can't helpt it.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Some valid points on several sides.

I used to think I was overly obsessive because I read and re-read and revise and add to and subtract from and edit many of my posts several times within a couple hours of making them.

"Why bother?" I sometimes wondered. "After all, it's a forum post, not a novel."

But good self-editing habits are those you stick with no matter what you're writing, or where.

And those good self-editing habits will forge friendliness between yourself as writer, and your editors/proofers, whose job you're making worlds easier by being careful to get stuff as good as you can get it regardless of forum, platform, or venue.

And that effort does trickle down to forging good relations with readers, to whom you stand out because of those good habits.

I guess it's just too ingrained in me to avoid: if I notice mistakes in my own posts, and I have the chance and ability to correct them... I can't rest until I do correct them.

Does that mean having those good habits makes me mistake-free? Hardly. But the more mistakes one eliminates, the better.


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## William Stacey (Jul 7, 2012)

MJAWare said:


> I'm bowing out now, but wanted to say I hope you didn't feel like I belittled you, if so it was not intended and I'm apologize.
> 
> Also, I can easilly spell one word deferent in the same sentance and non kntice is when I re-read (BTW: here's my non-proofed sentence, looks like great fun huh!)


MJAWare, 
hey, brother,
you don't ever need to explain yourself to anyone else; it's none of their business. I come here to communicate with other writers; I care about your message, not your spelling or word order. Go nuts, I'll understand (or ask for clarification if I don't).

And now that I think about it, I'm as obsessed with grammar as the next writer, but I'm with David and all the others who are here to discuss writing (or other cool things, Hobbit movie, I'm looking at you).

Let your hair down, relax, make all the typos you want. I don't care (I might snicker, but I'm just that childish).

But . . .

I get it. Novels are edited, message board posts . . . not so much.


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## btsc99 (Oct 12, 2012)

intinst said:


> You do not get many chances to make good early impressions on potential readers. I know that much toil and tears go into each novel, book, short story or what ever you are putting into the public eye, I've seen covers, blurbs, fonts and almost everything imaginable discussed all to the point of getting the reader to try the book or make a sale.But I see something almost daily here on KindleBoards that prevents you from making a sale to me and quite possible to many others. It is something you have complete control over. Whenever I see a thread title with misspelled or misused words, I cringe.To me it is like the blurb on Amazon, you want it to attract, not repel. I know that while posting we all let our mind get ahead of our hands and since it is casual writing, a few misspells or typos don't really detract from what you are getting across. But if the thread title has typos and misspells, I get the feeling that the writer doesn't care that much about their work, so why should I bother to open the thread, let alone, read the posts.
> 
> Yes it is probably very petty of me to ignore the output of several writers here at KB, based on things like this or their behavior towards reviewers or bad covers or what ever turns me sour, but there are far more books available than I will ever be able to read in what's left of my lifetime, however long that is. If you can't make it right ast the beginning, you lost me as a potential reader, because I wont read your witty comments or perfect Bon Mot, I'll move on to the next post to see if it catches my attention and makes me click on a book in the signature line..


Nature, read red in tooth and claw, is rarely a pretty sight.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Not sure about others, but I sometimes post using my Fire while lying in bed. Like now.I guess I could just refrain from posting until I have my contacts in and am at my computer.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I think that the reminder that we should make our public writing as perfect as possible (even on boards where we're not trying to promote our books) is a good one. That being said, I hope an occasional typo wouldn't prevent a reader from reading my books. According to KB, I've written over 3600 posts here. It's almost a certainty that a few of them have had typos (possibly even in the title). I do check after I post, and occasionally have spotted cringeworthy errors which I've gone back to fix. But it's quite likely that some have gotten past me, too. Self-editing perfectly is difficult; that's why we need editors.

I admit I make judgments about a writer's competence based on forum posts, too, but a few typos don't bother me. What I find offputting is a clear pattern of ungrammatical writing. Those writers, I avoid buying.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

David Adams said:


> Going to be honest here, I don't come to Kindleboards to sell books. I mean, sure, people have bought my books here, but this is mainly a cool hangout for me, where I let my non-hair down and generally relax, post pics of Hugh Howey, keep up to date with news in the industry, learn new things and generally relax and have fun. I only post in the Writer's Cafe.
> 
> To me this is more the water cooler out the back of the office, although I totally know readers sneak in here from time to time.


Like David Adams, I come here to talk to those who want to talk about the business of writing. It's like going to a writers' conference. It's not a great place (and a bad marketing strategy) to come here to sell books to other authors. Most are struggling to get sales themselves.


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm usually here at the end of the day, when work, family, friend and writing obligations are met. This means I'm typically burnt out by the time I'm typing here. Add that to the dyslexia and, yeah. There are most likely errors all over my posts.

But, even as a writer there are things I see on the boards that guarantee I'll never buy a book from some people. They have nothing to do with writing. I've seen people be dismissive, demeaning and petty. I've seen people go on the attack when someone asked a question -- If someone asked a question, it's because they don't know the answer and are looking for it. I've seen people attack religion, beliefs, and background.

Those people? Those are the people I won't buy books from. 

The others? I'll trust that they're tired and they know how to hire an editor.

It would be a sad, sad day if the authors on the board did something like stop posting because of analysis paralysis or just as bad -- create a locked down forum where they feel like they can be themselves. I've been somewhere that happened and it pretty much killed both sides of the wall.

So, please, remember -- writers are human. If you want them involved they need a bit of comfort zone around their posts. They're not final projects.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

The OP has valid points, but they're forgetting or unaware that copyediting and proofreading are completely distinct skills from writing. Plenty of folks can do one and not the others.

(Note that I'm not meaning anything negative by calling the OP potentially "unaware"; the OP is a reader, not a writer, so why should he or she know?)

While there are techniques to help everyone better see what they actually wrote rather than what they think they wrote, schools tend not to teach them. And the Writer's Cafe _is_ a casual environment.

Even so, I admit that when I see typos in thread topics or consistent grammar errors in posts, I make sure to check the sample if I'm interested in someone's story, to make sure the writer has taken measures to correct the typos in the final version. (Unless the person chatters about how great they are at self-editing. Muphry's Law means I don't mind if there's a typo or two in such a claim, but if there are grammar issues throughout such a claim, I steer away from the author.)

But in general, I'm more in line with Caitie: Author personality is far more likely to turn me off than some typos.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> Add me to the list of those who don't come here to sell books (though it's nice if it happens  ). I like the Cafe for learning about writing, covers and general publishing, and congratulating or commiserating with fellow indies. It's about the only place we can do that, without getting our hands slapped.


This. For me, writing can often feel isolating. I don't get to go to work and moan and complain with my colleagues. KB has become the place that I can share a joke with people who'll get them. I can lodge a complaint and receive sympathy.

I also think this thread highlights a misconception about what it is that writers do. We aren't professional grammarians. It certainly helps to know as many rules as possible, but there's a reason we (and almost every other professional writer) employ editors. We NEED them. We aren't perfect. Our trade is to invent worlds, dream up characters, concoct dialog, craft interesting plots, and make sure it all holds together. And now you think we need to be PERFECT, too?! On a forum?!


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what the OP said. *He did NOT say your whole post should be error free*. He simply said the *subject line* should be, if you want readers to take you seriously. Now, that may or may not matter to you and that is fine. He was simply pointing out how it looks to him/her as a reader if your SUBJECT LINE has typos in it. Yes, writers use editors...but come on. Do we need an editor in order to write an error free subject line?

I don't come here to sell books either. I do, however, realize that readers may read my post. While I am not going to change who I am in hope that every reader who reads my posts "likes" me and buys my book (and, by the way, no one personality is liked by everyone), I do appreciate it when a reader tells me about something easily corrected that sticks out as a reason to question my writing skills. How many words can be in a subject line? It is not hard to check it, or even correct it later if it is wrong.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that a person who writes novels can put together a subject line without spelling errors. If you don't want to take his or her advice, fine.  I am sure my posts are full of errors, but that is NOT the same as the subject line. I can't see as well as I could with new glasses and that creates problems of letters looking like other letters, etc...but right now I can't afford new glasses. I do try to get my subject lines right. If I see mistakes after posting I correct them.

I do sometimes think readers are harsh here about other reasons they won't buy a book (and then I just shake my head because I am not here to change who I am to please others), but in this case I think they were being decent in letting us know that a subject line with errors in it may look unprofessional to them. Why be so defensive about it? Either take the advice or don't. That is what it was. Advice. Chill. No one was saying your whole post should be perfect.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> " If you can't make it right ast the beginning, you lost me as a potential reader, because I wont read your witty comments or perfect Bon Mot, I'll move on to the next post to see if it catches my attention and makes me click on a book in the signature line.."


OK. The market has a huge selection of books. Consumers can find just about anything they want.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> ...there's a reason we (and almost every other professional writer) employ editors. We NEED them.


Yep. Everybody needs an editor. Even editors need editors: no one can properly edit his/her own work. I suspect that everyone has dysgraphia to one degree or another. When we read back over our own work, we tend to see what we intended to write, not necessarily the words that are truly there.

I do have a post in the Book Bazaar that I maintain in the hopes of getting a few sales, although I have little evidence that it has helped me do so. I hang out here in the Writer's Cafe to learn from other authors (and readers), share what little I know, and to commiserate with other "book people." I try my best to write a clean post, but I'm sure I miss stuff. I'm sure we all do at times, possibly even in the post title. I don't hold it against my fellow writers when they slip up, just as I hope they will be understanding about my mistakes.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

I thought the KindleBards was clever as I always thought of bards as storytellers and that is what you all are.  I realize this is an online forum and typos exist when fingers fly, the part that turns me off of someone's writing is when they post abrasive, rude, attacking posts targeted to ANYONE Specific on these boards. To my way of thinking, Harvey started these boards, so this site is HIS. Coming in here and posting is like sitting in his living room, and so attacking someone , to me, seems like going into Harvey's home and picking a fight, it's just not right.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> ...the part that turns me off of someone's writing is when they post abrasive, rude, attacking posts targeted to ANYONE Specific on these boards.





> I've seen people be dismissive, demeaning and petty. I've seen people go on the attack when someone asked a question -- If someone asked a question, it's because they don't know the answer and are looking for it. I've seen people attack religion, beliefs, and background.
> 
> Those people? Those are the people I won't buy books from.


I agree with these posts. While I probably won't bother glancing at a book written by someone whose grammar repeatedly does not seem to be adequate, I will actively _avoid _books by someone who ticks me off. Everyone can have bad days, of course, but if someone seems to be unpleasant or snide much of the time, it's a good bet I'll never buy his or her books.


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

BTackitt said:


> I thought the KindleBards was clever ...


Me too. I thought it was cute


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## Danielle Kazemi (Apr 2, 2011)

I personally like KindleBards. I think I'm going to start referring to people over here as that. I'll also need to play the theme song from Cheers before I come in to post.

As for the misspellings, there was a thing going around for a while with only misspelt words on it yet people were able to understand what was being said on it. I think it has something to do with how our subconscious knows what the person was trying to say even with the omission of certain words. Typos in thread titles don't annoy me too much. Misleading thread titles do. Personal attacks do.

I do like the metaphor of this being Harvey's living room. I'd hate to clean up after though. I bet there's coffee cups everywhere and no one used coasters.

And thanks for taking the time to write to us authors. It's always great to hear from readers.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I loved the "kindlebards" too!


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Caddy said:


> I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what the OP said. *He did NOT say your whole post should be error free*. He simply said the *subject line* should be, if you want readers to take you seriously. Now, that may or may not matter to you and that is fine. He was simply pointing out how it looks to him/her as a reader if your SUBJECT LINE has typos in it. Yes, writers use editors...but come on. Do we need an editor in order to write an error free subject line?
> 
> Why be so defensive about it? Either take the advice or don't. That is what it was. Advice. Chill. No one was saying your whole post should be perfect.


Thank you for saying what I attempted to do.


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## DLMedley (Oct 6, 2012)

If I see a post here that has some typos, the first thing that pops into my mind's eye is a person multi-tasking between writing, making breakfast, getting ready for work, getting the kids ready for school, and trying to fit a post in between all of that. On top of that, they're probably operating on less than optimal sleep. Or perhaps they have a couple of adult beverages under their belt 

As far as trying to sell one's books here in the Writer's Cafe? Never thought about it. I used to be in the music business. See that clean cut guy up there on the left? That hair used to be down to his waist. Anyway, the notion of trying to sell books in the Writer's Cafe reminds me of the bands that were always trying to impress other bands or musicians. Their gigs were mostly filled with other musicians who were probably on the guest list, and they just stood there analyzing the band. 

Creating and telling a story is difficult. Anyone who is able to do that, and who is willing to throw it out to the world, will get a certain amount of kudos from me as a default setting no matter what. And I just can't help but wish them much luck and success. 

Bottom line for me is that I really enjoy this place. The people here are pretty damned amazing.

Please disregard any typos, spelling errors, grammatical nonsense, or misuse of punctuation you may have run across in this post  

Regards
DLM


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

I was once reminded that as a writer EVERYTHING you write is on show  . (Don't lose your shopping list )
There could be literary agents trawling the Writers' Cafe and I would suggest that they would be wary of a sloppy writer who will obviously need help with grammar and spelling. Yes, it is easy to make typos, but we are not using a quill and ink and it is a simple matter to correct them. I even check personal letters and emails to friends before sending them  .  

Stands back and waits to be shot down in flames.


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## Ian Fraser (Mar 8, 2011)

re 'I was once reminded that as a writer EVERYTHING you write is on show '

+1 this. I also operate with this approach, and have little sympathy for those who compose posts where 'there' and their' are mixed up, or 'your' and 'you're' - or who use phrases like 'I could care less' (when they mean 'I couldn't care less.')

Another red flag for me is when people start raising disorders or refer to human suffering they may have experienced or seen which are somehow meant to evoke sympathy and explain away shoddy writing.

Either you're a writer who takes some pride in what you type _anywhere_, or you're one of the other types of writer, in which case, I'm a little wary of the story-telling skills that might be on display in your work - just because I treat writing as a craft, regardless of whether I'm posting at speed, or writing in a book. Punctuation, I'm not that bothered with. We all slip from time to time.

This said, I have no problems with grumpy writers, or writers who have gratingly different beliefs or views other than my own. It can make the boards interesting at times when someone sees red and starts arguing: provided they're constructing sentences and spelling like a writer, as opposed to an earnest scribbler. 
/2 cents worth
*puts on helmet, rolls smoke, relaxes against the sandbags*


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## gljones (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm afraid to post in anything noww.  I hpe I dont make any spellling mistakees


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I liked the KindleBards name and think we ought to adopt it somehow!

I got that the poster was talking about subject lines and not the content of posts.

I do go over my posts looking for errors, and I do edit them when I find typos and such.

I do hire a copy editor for my books, because you pretty much have to.

And I don't hang out here to sell books, although some buying and selling goes on among us.

All that said: I'm put off by readers who glom onto one tiny thing and proclaim loudly, "I'll never buy a book from anyone who--!" Some real-life examples:

"I'll never buy a book from anyone who--"

--uses 1st person
--uses 3rd person
--puts a book in Select, even temporarily
--charges more than $x.xx
--charges less than $x.xx
--has a typo in their book description
--refers to a soldier in Operation Desert Storm using an M4 carbine which wouldn't even be manufactured for another three years instead of an M16 rifle

I think we all get it: There are millions of books out there to read, you don't need to read mine, you can write me off as an author for any reason you choose, however minor, including the fact that you don't like this or some other post.

I'll listen to comments, consider advice, very gladly accept correction (and revise!) when errors of fact are pointed out to me. And yeah, I'm human and commit typos. But whenever someone says, "I'll never buy a book from--" it comes across as bullying to me, and my emotional reaction is, "Well, okay then, don't."


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Caddy said:


> I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what the OP said. *He did NOT say your whole post should be error free*. He simply said the *subject line* should be, if you want readers to take you seriously. Now, that may or may not matter to you and that is fine. He was simply pointing out how it looks to him/her as a reader if your SUBJECT LINE has typos in it. Yes, writers use editors...but come on. Do we need an editor in order to write an error free subject line?


I kindly disagree. 

English is not my mothertongue. I am doing whatever I can to have a professional going over whatever I publish, because this is something I'm selling and people deserve the best work I can put out there.
Does that mean that I can't write posts or open threads because I don't write english as well as the others? Because I might leave a typo or a grammatical error? Does that mean my whole work, my whole story is not good?

I wish people weren't so hard on others. Typos happen. It's not such a big deal, unless their book is riddled with them.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Jan Strnad said:


> I'll listen to comments, consider advice, very gladly accept correction (and revise!) when errors of fact are pointed out to me. And yeah, I'm human and commit typos. But whenever someone says, "I'll never buy a book from--" it comes across as bullying to me, and my emotional reaction is, "Well, okay then, don't."


^^^ THIS.
Thank you jan.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Intinst didn't start this thread to attack anyone. His purpose was to mention the fact that typographical errors in thread titles were off-putting to him and perhaps to other readers. Personally, I try to avoid typos in my own posts but I really don't pay much attention to typos by others. I've even bought books written by people whose posts continually irritate me. (Some of the biggest jerks are great writers.)  

Just for the record, Kindleboards was established for Kindle owners, not for writers, as some of you have said.


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## harrisonbooth (Oct 29, 2012)

T.L. Haddix said:


> This.
> 
> Look, KB is a casual place for a lot of writers. Too casual at times, say like when writers come into the WC and post rants about reviews they get, completely forgetting this is a public forum and not just a place locked down for writers. But aside from things like that, it's a casual place. Intinst knows that. I hardly think he's saying if you make a post at three a.m. and it has two typos in the body, you'll never sell another book.
> 
> ...


Nicely said. Although I did jump straight into the middle of your post and read "the WC is a public place" first. It took a full minute of confusion to establish the correct meaning.


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## Harry Dewulf (Oct 4, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Some valid points on several sides.
> 
> I used to think I was overly obsessive because I read and re-read and revise and add to and subtract from and edit many of my posts several times within a couple hours of making them.
> 
> "Why bother?" I sometimes wondered. "After all, it's a forum post, not a novel."


but craig, sometimes your posts are really _really _long I for one am glad you do edit them.


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## Harry Dewulf (Oct 4, 2010)

Can I perhaps recommend a quiet PM to the OP if a thread title has a glaring error? I have done this once and it was very well received. I also enormously appreciated it when the same was done for me.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> There is a reason why copy-editing is also a profession.


LOL...yup. This is a place for writers, if readers want to come in and see the sausage, that's on them.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

Jan Strnad said:


> I'll listen to comments, consider advice, very gladly accept correction (and revise!) when errors of fact are pointed out to me. And yeah, I'm human and commit typos. But whenever someone says, "I'll never buy a book from--" it comes across as bullying to me, and my emotional reaction is, "Well, okay then, don't."


And there are A LOT of "KB readers" who venture in here and say just that to us on a regular basis. I have no time for them. Don't buy my books, then. Just don't.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

This is one that's bound to split opinions, but I think the OP has a fair point.

We are all writers in WC. But sometimes folks just might wander by and look in with the thought of maybe doing some business. Put yourself in the same position if you were heading out to find . . .

... A babysitter









Or maybe a yoga teacher...









Tech Support









Or a taxi driver









First impressions count!

Joe


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Intinst, I do it too. I judge people on their typos rather frequently. I don't know that it's fair, exactly, for the reasons that others have posted, but I have caught myself doing it.

Like most writers here, I'm here to network and to relax, not to market. That's one reason why I don't post under the same name I publish under. It's not going to stop a determined reader, and I'm aware that what I'm writing is public, but a bunch of kindleboards posts are not going to come up when you google vjchambers. Not that I'm hiding anything, per se, but occasionally, I have little meltdowns. The little barrier makes me a little less worried, and I like that valeriec80 is forum me, but that vjchambers is fan me.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

David Adams said:


> Going to be honest here, I don't come to Kindleboards to sell books. I mean, sure, people have bought my books here, but this is mainly a cool hangout for me, where I let my non-hair down and generally relax, post pics of Hugh Howey, keep up to date with news in the industry, learn new things and generally relax and have fun. I only post in the Writer's Cafe.
> 
> To me this is more the water cooler out the back of the office, although I totally know readers sneak in here from time to time.


This.
(well, that without the pics of Hugh. What happens at Worldcon STAYS at Worldcon)


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

sigh....

just a few comments, people.
1) The original post was about thread titles, not thread posts. A couple of typos in a long post are not that big a deal for any of us.
2) It most likely is refering to titles in the BOOK BAZAAR.  If you don't post there, then it's got nothing to do with you.  But intinst posted his letter here to help those who DO post there.
3) Anyone who thinks that it's only writers who do (or should) post in the WC would do well to remember that writers are readers too.  
4) But, this is a forum for kindle owners.  Yes, the WC is where writers can talk about "authorly" stuff, but if you don't want readers reading your posts, you've come to the wrong forum.
5)  I'm sure you all judge people by some criteria that the rest of us don't.  So, I won't tell you how to think, and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't tell me how to read things.
6) No matter what you do, some people will like it, some people will hate it, and some people will just want the left-over turkey.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

David Adams said:


> Going to be honest here, I don't come to Kindleboards to sell books. I mean, sure, people have bought my books here, but this is mainly a cool hangout for me, where I let my non-hair down and generally relax, post pics of Hugh Howey, keep up to date with news in the industry, learn new things and generally relax and have fun. I only post in the Writer's Cafe.
> 
> To me this is more the water cooler out the back of the office, although I totally know readers sneak in here from time to time.


I don't "sneak" in here. The door is wide open, I come here whenever I well please. I have no reason to sneak. That makes it sound like I am not suppose to be here.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

I like when readers come here and offer their perspective and opinions. I think a little common sense is all that's needed. Proof your posts, then move on. No need to obsess or be defensive, just be mindful that potential readers may see your posts.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I have a problem. The creative side of my brain has pushed into and taken over the analytical side. While I wish I had the extra organic brain folds left in which to store the whole _Chicago Manual of Style_, it's not going to happen.

I have beta readers, I hire editors, and once, my computer program memory actually filled up to the point it wasn't accepting edits (all though it lied to me and said it was!)

Mistakes will get through. I correct them even after the book is published if a reader is kind enough to point them out (I prefer they do it privately, and the nice ones do, but there is that element that takes great joy in pointing out mistakes in public.)

The great thing about ebooks is once the mistakes are corrected, they're gone forever! The posters who then posted about them publicly, look foolish after some time has gone by, because the errors they trumpeted are no longer there, leaving future readers to think those readers were purposely misleading people not to try the book.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> "I'll never buy a book from anyone who--"
> 
> --uses 1st person
> --uses 3rd person
> ...


I understand about the above. That is what I was talking about when I saId there have been posts from readers that I just shake my head over. *I do think the OP here was trying to give authors a "heads up" about something that can easily turn off a lot of readers* but some of the other "I'll never read" are pretty narrow minded. Still, if people choose to be narrow minded, that is their right. Although when they are so vocal about "punishing" an author because they didn't live up to whatever it is they expected it DOES seem like bullying. I don't worry about them because there are many other people who will buy my books and enjoy them. I look at it as they are missing out on some good reads if they choose to be so strict. Gosh, some of them even go so far as "If a author does "this" or "that" in a book or on here, I will "tell everyone" not to buy their book. Again, I shake my head. Really? Do those people have so little to do in their life that they enjoy trying to ruin someones career because the author stated an opinion they don't like or charged a price they don't like...or wrote a book in a way they don't like? "Wow," I think as I shake my head. I would hope they could find more postive ways to spend theirr energy because spending trying to hurt people is not good for their health. Karma also has a way of evening things out. But, again, it is their choice to do that. I can't stop them. "Telling everybody" realistically can't be done...and there are still a lot of readers to buy the books of authors they "told everybody" not to buy.  Maybe they are just having a bad day when they say that, just like I sometimes do when I write a less than friendly post.

I also appreciate the posts on here from the woman who does not speak English as her first language. That was also a valid point.

The one who mentioned private messaging someone about a subject line: that is a great idea. I have done that about a few other things and have been thanked for it.  Sometimes we get in such a hurry that we forget people don't mind corrections in private but sometimes take offense when it is pointed out publicly.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Aaaaaaand ... did y'all know I'm reworking a part of my second book to feature Triassic critters? Let me tell you, the Triassic was cool. It doesn't get enough love. Jurassic this, Jurassic that: so short-sighted!

You know what else is cool? Pangaea. Uh-huh. Very cool.

What? You want to keep talking typos? Oh. Okay, sorry ...


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> You know what else is cool? Pangaea. Uh-huh. Very cool.


Great to hear. Join us!









source

Down with arbitrary tectonic thrusts! On with berets and onion garments!










B.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

I'm an editor.

I have been a member of this forum since January 8, 2009. I've seen multitudes of typos and poorly written posts. I've also purchased *tons* of books from signature blocks.

The only thing guaranteed to keep me from purchasing a book is poor editing. I find that out by sampling the book, not by picking apart an author's posts in a forum or even on his or her blog.

To judge a book by anything other than its actual content is just... well... let's just say "not smart."

My next point is that, to some extent, I agree with the OP. Yes, you read that right. I think *most* people should be able to make *a thread topic* legible.

I wouldn't let a misspelled word in a thread topic keep me from purchasing a book.

But consider what people (readers) are saying about indie books these days. I see tons of articles about how indie books are unedited, filled with errors, etc.

Now, imagine a reader thinking, "Gee, I wonder if all that's true. I wonder what those indie authors have to say about it." Then, that reader finds this forum.

The first thing he or she will see is the list of topics. Enough said.

<shrug> I can see both sides.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Great to hear. Join us!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome. 

But would you mind wearing all the onions, B.?


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

> My next point is that, to some extent, I agree with the OP. Yes, you read that right. I think most people should be able to make a thread topic legible.


Well, yeah, they should. But if I saw a thread title announcing a book, and it went something like, "THEY EAT THERE YOUNG on sale now," I'd think, "I hope this author has a good copy editor" rather than "I'll never read anything this author writes ever." (Of course, it could be a book about Chuck E. Cheese's and that title would be perfectly correct.)


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

MJAWare said:


> At this point the teacher is pretty p*ssed. Grabs me by the arm and says, "Look stupid," as she point with her pencil "_I like read much better that write_. Do you see that? You're missing the word _to_ and have _that_ when it should be _than_. Do you need to have your glasses checked?"


Said teacher needs to be fired.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Sigh.



telracs said:


> *snipped*
> 
> 1) The original post was about thread titles, not thread posts. A couple of typos in a long post are not that big a deal for any of us.
> 
> ...


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Harry Dewulf said:


> but craig, sometimes your posts are really _really _long I for one am glad you do edit them.


What, me, long-winded? 

(props to Alfred E. Neuman)

ASIDE: There is a reason I'm more drawn to novels than short fiction...


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

This thread is one of the reasons I don't think I'll let anyone here know once I publish. I like to come here after three or four drinks (like now), and if I'm gonna get hammered over some typos or words I misspell because I'm too lazy to look them up or spellchack them, then it'll ruin the experience for me. The other reason is because you never know what enemies you've made on here.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Wow. This thread sure got silly in a hurry.


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

I always read the sample before I buy a book--indie, Big Six, any book.

I do have a short list of authors I won't buy who write in genres I like. Usually they showed an ugly underbelly or just creeped me out. Most of those were on FB. Unsubscribe!


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## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

I hate fighting. 

Maybe this will help cool things down a bit.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Ehh, I've bought books from people on here who I totally disagree with, and not bought books from people on here who I get along well with. And vice versa, in other cases.

Because, as RedAdept said, I look at the work itself.

Also, I try to avoid "ultimatum" statements like "I'll never buy..." or "I'll always buy..."


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I try to avoid "ultimatum" statements like "I'll never buy..." or "I'll always buy..."


Me, too. No need to paint yourself into a corner. I'm afraid that some of my favorite old pulp writers were a bit right of me politically, and as for their attitudes toward women, well, the less said, the better.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I'm afraid that some of my favorite old pulp writers were a bit right of me politically, and as for their attitudes toward women, well, the less said, the better.


It's a valid point. Heaven knows I don't agree with Heinlein on too many topics, but I still enjoy reading his works for some reason.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

A handful of writers here will never have works on my bookshelf, but it's not because they have typos in their thread titles. It's because they like to belittle people, reply hatefully with those they don't agree with, start pointless arguments in most of the threads they post in or generally behave like buttwipes. They could collectively produce the next Great American Novel, and I'd be happy to skip it. 

A typo now and then doesn't bother me. If one person does it often, I start to assume he or she can't spell. It wouldn't stop me from looking at a fiction sample, however, because for all I know he or she has a great editor or self-edits better when it's something for sale.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> This thread is one of the reasons I don't think I'll let anyone here know once I publish. I like to come here after three or four drinks (like now), and if I'm gonna get hammered over some typos or words I misspell because I'm too lazy to look them up or spellchack them, then it'll ruin the experience for me. The other reason is because you never know what enemies you've made on here.


I don't know about "enemies", that is pretty strong, but if you fail to make obeisance to the gods of "Political Correctness" and dare to say what you really think when you think it, many people will build and carry resentment. Such people could well start throwing one star reviews in retaliation. Unless you tip-toe through forums hoping that the meek will inherit the good reviews, then your suggested approach might be wise.

Or you could do what at least one other poster does here. Have several identities. I am not about to name names, but "several" of the higher profile ( in a number of posts sense) members here are one person who posts as both male and female. How do I know this? Because they used DropBox to send a MS to an editor (not me, but one who knows me) and instead of making the one document public, they made a heavily used working directory containing material from several computers and mobile devices public. I have not - and would not - read the documents, but I was sent a screen capture of the titles of the documents and avatars/.jpgs in the directory. I cannot "un-see" what I have seen. I found it illuminating - and understandable. While I am happy to express opinion that will alienate some, others like to be able to do the same without risking loss of esteem from those upon whom they place some value. Some of us are living in a convoluted little world.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

DarkScribe said:


> Or you could do what at least one other poster does here. Have several identities.


Exactly. I'll have an alter ego who'll be all nice and sterile. Polite golf clap at every bit of good news every author posts, no matter how overt a cry for an ego stroke it is. Never delve into one star review threads. Prostrate at the altar of the WC gods. Suck up to the readers on the board with a deft touch.

With four different computers at my disposal, a second identity shouldn't be a problem. I don't think even Betsy could sniff it out.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Nice try, cranial. Sorry. Let's try that again without auto-correct.

Nice try, vrabinec. We all know you already do this, and the other half of you dual identity is - AAAARGH no stoppit I promise I won't AAAAArgh gurgle


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Unless I'm mistaken, multiple login IDs is against the forum's rules and grounds for banning. The fact that some people may be doing it only means that the management has chosen not to take action, it doesn't mean that they don't know. 

It isn't really that hard for a forum admin to find people who use multiple IDs. Most people aren't knowledgeable enough to fake their IP address, and few can do it without waving a flag that says "Hey look. I'm hiding something."


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

DarkScribe said:


> I don't know about "enemies", that is pretty strong, but if you fail to make obeisance to the gods of "Political Correctness" and dare to say what you really think when you think it, many people will build and carry resentment. Such people could well start throwing one star reviews in retaliation. Unless you tip-toe through forums hoping that the meek will inherit the good reviews, then your suggested approach might be wise.


Or you could, you know, just get along with folks, the way most of us regularly have to do in day-to-day life. That does sometimes mean putting other people's feelings ahead of your right to say exactly what you think, exactly as you'd like to say it.

Sent from my LG-VS700 using Tapatalk 2


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Or you could, you know, just get along with folks, the way most of us regularly have to do in day-to-day life. That does sometimes mean putting other people's feelings ahead of your right to say exactly what you think, exactly as you'd like to say it.


+1

While I agree with you, Becca, I don't expect to see that philosophy flourish here. We have far too many participants on this board who like to make it personal. I don't envy our illustrious moderators one bit. Do you remember the "Queen of Mean" poll? It was effectively a celebration of abrasive behavior. It's possible that the drama and occasional flame wars are one of the things that draw people to these threads.  My favorite part is when someone finally posts the video of the guy in 3-D glasses eating popcorn.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Nice try, vrabinec. We all know you already do this, and the other half of you dual identity is - AAAARGH no stoppit I promise I won't AAAAArgh gurgle


I was going to say something like this yesterday...

Those with pen names may want to visit here under their pen names for tagging and author page liking, so why would kindleboards not allow more than one name? Maybe that is the rule, I don't know...but it would seem to limit authors abilities under different pen names for different genres.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

I try to say what I think in here without pissing too many people off. It doesn't always work, but I do try.

Now, when I'm talking to a customer or a _known_ reader, I'm always on my best behavior. But I'm very visible on the web. You can Google any of my names and find me. You can find out my address, my kids, my books, my websites...blah blah blah...I came to the conclusion a log time ago that I can't hide who I am online no matter how hard I try, and I can't please everyone.

It cannot be done.

But if a reader storms into Writer's Cafe and says this:



> "If you can't make it right ast the beginning, you lost me as a potential reader, because I wont read your witty comments or perfect Bon Mot, I'll move on to the next post to see if it catches my attention and makes me click on a book in the signature line.."


(Typos included.)

Then, I'm sorry - who cares? I mean, I get the point - writers are on display in the forum, make it count. That is solid advice. But that line I quoted was personal. So guess what? Some people took it the way it was intended. Surprise, surprise.

I don't know this poster, I stay in WC almost 100% of the time, but if they've got a problem with a writer's title copy, either ignore it and move on (like they said they do) or PM the writer and let them now.

You don't start a thread sounding like you're all altruistic, while insulting a lot of people at the same time, and then expect no one to be offended.

And as far a the PC stuff goes - yes, I think you have to have two identities when you're a public figure. The real you and the public you. But here's where I go off on a tangent from some of you - *they should not be that different.*


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

DRMarvello said:


> Do you remember the "Queen of Mean" poll? It was effectively a celebration of abrasive behavior.


Actually it was a tongue in cheek poll. None of us actually believe these people are the meanest around. Scarlet(telracs) won it the first year, and many of us find her witty and amusing, and not cruel or abrasive. Julie, I think is the Sith Lord of Mean this year, and I for one find her extremely informative and amazing.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

BTackitt said:


> None of us actually believe these people are the meanest around.


Speak for yourself. I think Ed Patterson is pretty darn mean.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Speak for yourself. I think Ed Patterson is pretty darn mean.


No way. . . he sent me a free autographed book. . . .he's clearly NICE!


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

and he set up and runs OEBD.. Nothing nicer could be done imho,.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> No way. . . he sent me a free autographed book. . . .he's clearly NICE!


Okay. He has his moments. That's probably why Scarlet and Julie beat him in the Queen of Mean competition.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

BTackitt said:


> and he set up and runs OEBD.. Nothing nicer could be done imho,.


You win. But Ed's not going to like it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff said:


> You win. But Ed's not going to like it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

They're all mean.


And I'd nominate Ann but I'm scared of her.


Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> They're all mean.
> 
> 
> And I'd nominate Ann but I'm scared of her.
> ...


Says the woman with a cattle prod. . . . .


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Says the woman with a cattle prod. . . . .


You're the real reason I have it. Self defense.


Betsy


----------



## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

BTackitt said:


> Actually it was a tongue in cheek poll. None of us actually believe these people are the meanest around. Scarlet(telracs) won it the first year, and many of us find her witty and amusing, and not cruel or abrasive. Julie, I think is the Sith Lord of Mean this year, and I for one find her extremely informative and amazing.


I agree it was tongue-in-cheek, which I'm sure is why it was allowed by the mods. After all, the poll could have been viewed as a personal attack on each of the nominees. To their credit (and my respect), they were extremely good sports about it. You are also right that all of them are well-known board members who are very helpful here on KB and I can say personally have taught me a lot. But tongue-in-cheek or not, the nominees were not nominated for their butterflies and rainbows attitudes. At the time it happened, I thought the poll itself was mean, but everyone seemed to have fun with it, including those nominated.


----------



## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Says the woman with a cattle prod. . . . .


Oh, but u have to admit sometimes that cattle prod hurts soo good!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

DRMarvello said:


> I agree it was tongue-in-cheek, which I'm sure is why it was allowed by the mods. After all, the poll could have been viewed as a personal attack on each of the nominees. To their credit (and my respect), they were extremely good sports about it. You are also right that all of them are well-known board members who are very helpful here on KB and I can say personally have taught me a lot. But tongue-in-cheek or not, the nominees were not nominated for their butterflies and rainbows attitudes. At the time it happened, I thought the poll itself was mean, but everyone seemed to have fun with it, including those nominated.


And yet, Ed Patterson, who has never spoken a cross word to anyone on these boards to my knowledge, was nominated nominated himself and even ardently pursued the crown.  As far as I know, everyone who was nominated was asked first if they would mind being part of it, including at least one moderator who declined.

Truthfully, there's a quite a range of behavior between "butterflies and rainbows" and behavior that requires moderation. Forum Decorum does not mean that no one here will never be annoyed, take umbrage or misunderstand and over-react to someone else's post. Or that expressing annoyance, umbrage or anger over a post is out of line. That would be impossible to do and would be the antithesis of what we try to do here, which is civil but genuine conversation.

Betsy


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

just to clarify some of the queen of mean stuff...
1)  the person who was elected the first queen of mean was the person who STARTED the campaign. and who then decided to abdicate and hold another election.
2) Ed was not nominated, he nominated himself.
3) there was a lot of behind the scenes PMing going to make sure nobody who was not in on the joke got caught in it.


some people are proud that they are not "butterflies and rainbows".  because if it was all rainbows, people would stop appreciating the sparkles when they come.


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm still convinced the title of this thread contains a typo.

As a lover of irony, maybe it's just what I _want_ to believe.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

I was actually a little hurt that I was not nominated during the Queen of Mean contest.  

I've tried to ramp up my meanness quotient, but I'm never certain when I'm hitting that level of meanness required for nomination.

Perhaps I just don't have it in me, and I should try for a different title.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm still convinced the title of this thread contains a typo.
> 
> As a lover of irony, maybe it's just what I _want_ to believe.


I have to agree. Irony is good for the healthy anyway. 

Anyway, I am tired of the "if you do XXXXX I will never buy your books". "If you're mean, I'll never buy your books". Well, I am, so there ya go. (I thought I was mean enough for a nomination but apparently not  ) "If you make a typo in a subject, I'll never buy your book". I have no doubt that in the course of a few thousand posts that I have, so there ya go. "If you write first person, I'll never buy your book. If you have sex or violence, I'll never buy your book. If you dare to be PC, I'll never buy your book." I'm guilty on all counts.

Whatever.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Or you could, you know, just get along with folks, the way most of us regularly have to do in day-to-day life. That does sometimes mean putting other people's feelings ahead of your right to say exactly what you think, exactly as you'd like to say it.
> 
> Sent from my LG-VS700 using Tapatalk 2


Yeah, right. Get a grip. Hello! McFly! I'm a guy. It comes out and gets posted LONG before I ever consider anyone's feelings. I'd have to go back and read all my posts after the fact. Ew.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Lynn McNamee said:


> I was actually a little hurt that I was not nominated during the Queen of Mean contest.
> 
> I've tried to ramp up my meanness quotient, but I'm never certain when I'm hitting that level of meanness required for nomination.
> 
> Perhaps I just don't have it in me, and I should try for a different title.


I think it was one of those times you were off the board and I couldn't get a hold of you.

maybe it's time for a new contest?

JR, I'll happily nominate you if you want in on the next one....


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

telracs said:


> I think it was one of those times you were off the board and I couldn't get a hold of you.
> 
> maybe it's time for a new contest?
> 
> JR, I'll happily nominate you if you want in on the next one....


I felt my meanness quotient was severly under rated. 

ETA: As far as the original topic, I long since figured out that no matter what I do, I'll offend someone, make someone mad or just have someone decide that I don't know how to spell, punctuate or have the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time. That's life for an author. Either we learn to live with it or we do something else.


----------



## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

DarkScribe said:


> Or you could do what at least one other poster does here. Have several identities. I am not about to name names, but "several" of the higher profile ( in a number of posts sense) members here are one person who posts as both male and female. How do I know this? Because they used DropBox to send a MS to an editor (not me, but one who knows me) and instead of making the one document public, they made a heavily used working directory containing material from several computers and mobile devices public. I have not - and would not - read the documents, but I was sent a screen capture of the titles of the documents and avatars/.jpgs in the directory. I cannot "un-see" what I have seen. I found it illuminating - and understandable. While I am happy to express opinion that will alienate some, others like to be able to do the same without risking loss of esteem from those upon whom they place some value. Some of us are living in a convoluted little world.


How would anyone have time to post as more than one person?
I won't judge, because I guess if you had books in very different genres you might want to post as the pen names of those books.
But people posting as different members to in order to put others down is a big reason why I left the authonomy forums. There was a group there I loved talking with, but the big blowouts that kept happening in the forums just became a big headache.

If I ever have a brain snap and start posting as ahem, Ferguson Fartworthy, (who blunders in once a month and moans he hasn't sold any of the book he wrote for his kids)  or something, someone please stop me 
http://www.amazon.com/How-gas-made-famous-ebook/dp/B0084WWKR2/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1353797922&sr=1-1&keywords=ferguson+fartworthy


----------



## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> Or you could, you know, just get along with folks, the way most of us regularly have to do in day-to-day life. That does sometimes mean putting other people's feelings ahead of your right to say exactly what you think, exactly as you'd like to say it.
> 
> Sent from my LG-VS700 using Tapatalk 2


I am no different in my everyday life. I do not try NOT to get along, I am more than happy to get on well with others, but I will not "pretend" in order to do so. I sincerely believe that many of the problems in modern society are directly related to Political Correctness. Political correctness only comes into play when it becomes necessary to be less than truthful, to suppress genuine opinion, to avoid having others know how we really feel. How is that helpful to anyone in the long term? How is living in a pretend world, among people who hide their true feelings, not ever knowing what or who is real, a good thing? The hypocrisy involved is something I choke on.

Political Correctness always reminds me of that ubiquitous female fake niceness. A group of women get together, all nice and kissy-kissiy, admiring and complimenting each other until one moves out of earshot. Then the others attack her. "Doesn't she own a mirror?" "That hair style is terrible, someone should tell her". She's putting on a bit of weight - isn't she?" Did you hear about her husband and that women?" etc., etc. It is all around us in real life, (I work in an office full of women) depicted in books, movies and plays, and it is as old as time.

I am always willing to help others, I don't initiate any deliberate form of insult, and I don't hold grudges; but I will never pretend simply in order to please someone who I don't know. I will only rarely do it for those I love - the last time was reassuring my mother that she would be fine - the night before she died. I will do it for my kids, to boost confidence or reassure, but I will never make it a "matter of course" everyday practice the way so many insist on doing. I abhor the practice.


----------



## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Anya said:


> How would anyone have time to post as more than one person?
> I won't judge, because I guess if you had books in very different genres you might want to post as the pen names of those books.
> But people posting as different members to in order to put others down is a big reason why I left the authonomy forums. There was a group there I loved talking with, but the big blowouts that kept happening in the forums just became a big headache.
> 
> ...


Ferguson Fartworthy. Classic. I think that I might have to steal that.

As others have noted, possibly some might want to have an online persona for each of their pseudonyms. It could be helpful if for instance someone fairly well established decided to try their hand at erotica. (Really - there was no innuendo intended.)

I have not paid any attention to authonomy, though I have joined many other writing/ePublishing groups. I will have a look at them now. Blowouts you say?


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

DarkScribe said:


> Political Correctness always reminds me of that ubiquitous female fake niceness. A group of women get together, all nice and kissy-kissiy, admiring and complimenting each other until one moves out of earshot. Then the others attack her. "Doesn't she own a mirror?" "That hair style is terrible, someone should tell her". She's putting on a bit of weight - isn't she?" Did you hear about her husband and that women?" etc., etc. It is all around us in real life, (I work in an office full of women) depicted in books, movies and plays, and it is as old as time.


Or the male equivalent, "I hear his bulge isn't real. Yep, he straps a salami to his leg every morning. I mean, why do you think that dog follows him around like that?"


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I do not believe political correctness is the same thing as common courtesy (or apparently for some posters here, uncommon courtesy  ).  Just because something can be said doesn't mean it should.  If someone proudly displays their newborn babe, and it's ugly, it is NOT appropriate to tell them so.  That's not being politically correct, it's being polite or possibly even kind.  

Betsy


----------



## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Or the male equivalent, "I hear his bulge isn't real. Yep, he straps a salami to his leg every morning. I mean, why do you think that dog follows him around like that?"


Nope - never heard that as a male equivalent. Clearly the guys in your experience must wash the salt off in the ladies' change rooms.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, I don't even know what that means but I'm thinking this thread has jumped the shark...

Betsy


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I do not believe political correctness is the same thing as common courtesy (or apparently for some posters here, uncommon courtesy ). Just because something can be said doesn't mean it should. If someone proudly displays their newborn babe, and it's ugly, it is NOT appropriate to tell them so. That's not being politically correct, it's being polite or possibly even kind.
> 
> Betsy


I agree, but when we're talking about someone's writing, I think that's different. You can't work and change a baby's face. You can work on your writing, as long as someone is honest enought to tell you there are flaws. Common courtesy might be to tell someone their writing's fine the way it is. To chalk disappointing sales off to finicky readers, the genre the writer selected, or fate. Then the writer might believe the common courtesy, and waste another year or two, writing a book in the same poor style, when an honest appaisal, as delating as it may have been, might have pushed him down a more fruitful road toward self-improvement.


----------



## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I do not believe political correctness is the same thing as common courtesy (or apparently for some posters here, uncommon courtesy ). Just because something can be said doesn't mean it should. If someone proudly displays their newborn babe, and it's ugly, it is NOT appropriate to tell them so. That's not being politically correct, it's being polite or possibly even kind.
> 
> Betsy


Do you mean that asking where they got the monkey would not be well regarded?

Of course, courtesy (and I am generally courteous) dictates saying nothing. If they insist on having my opinion - and many do - I will say something along the lines of "I think all babies look like shriveled up little old men until they get a bit bigger." I will not lie and say that I think their baby is attractive. I don't volunteer anything that might be hurtful, and I will often try to avoid a direct response - but I will not lie. Nothing good comes from lying as a part of a social convention.

A strange side effect of my attitude is that I have been in demand as a woman's (clothing) shopping companion since my late teens. My wife will loan me out to her friends and she will seldom buy clothing without me. The same doesn't apply when she is buying shoes - although it does when she is selecting them to wear. I suppose that I have a typical male attitude toward women's footwear. "You already have twenty pairs of red stilettos - what do you want another pair for?"


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> I agree, but when we're talking about someone's writing, I think that's different. You can't work and change a baby's face. You can work on your writing, as long as someone is honest enought to tell you there are flaws. Common courtesy might be to tell someone their writing's fine the way it is. To chalk disappointing sales off to finicky readers, the genre the writer selected, or fate. Then the writer might believe the common courtesy, and waste another year or two, writing a book in the same poor style, when an honest appaisal, as delating as it may have been, might have pushed him down a more fruitful road toward self-improvement.


To me, common courtesy is to give someone an honest opinion of their work when they ask for it, and to keep silent when not asked. If someone posts here and asks for critique, it's fine to give an honest opinion. What is not fine is for opinions to be given when not asked as a way to attack the member. Which I've seen here and which is not allowed here. That's not political correctness.

Betsy


----------



## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> OK, I don't even know what that means but I'm thinking this thread has jumped the shark...
> 
> Betsy


I am a surfer - as are most of my friends of both sexes.

You really shouldn't talk about sharks to surfers - this year we have had the highest number of shark attacks in our recorded history. Not that I am nervous mind you, that shadow is probably just fast moving kelp.

Addendum - I wasn't clear: Surfers usually wash the salt off at the end of the day. Delicatessen products of any type would not remain hidden.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

DarkScribe said:


> I am no different in my everyday life. I do not try NOT to get along, I am more than happy to get on well with others, but I will not "pretend" in order to do so. I sincerely believe that many of the problems in modern society are directly related to Political Correctness. Political correctness only comes into play when it becomes necessary to be less than truthful, to suppress genuine opinion, to avoid having others know how we really feel. How is that helpful to anyone in the long term? How is living in a pretend world, among people who hide their true feelings, not ever knowing what or who is real, a good thing? The hypocrisy involved is something I choke on.
> 
> Political Correctness always reminds me of that ubiquitous female fake niceness. A group of women get together, all nice and kissy-kissiy, admiring and complimenting each other until one moves out of earshot. Then the others attack her. "Doesn't she own a mirror?" "That hair style is terrible, someone should tell her". She's putting on a bit of weight - isn't she?" Did you hear about her husband and that women?" etc., etc. It is all around us in real life, (I work in an office full of women) depicted in books, movies and plays, and it is as old as time.
> 
> I am always willing to help others, I don't initiate any deliberate form of insult, and I don't hold grudges; but I will never pretend simply in order to please someone who I don't know. I will only rarely do it for those I love - the last time was reassuring my mother that she would be fine - the night before she died. I will do it for my kids, to boost confidence or reassure, but I will never make it a "matter of course" everyday practice the way so many insist on doing. I abhor the practice.


Usually when someone has a problem with political correctness, its because they're mistakenly assuming its about THEM. Its not.

I date men. And I don't particularly like having to put up with homophobic idiots giving me grief about it and calling me a ***, etc. It usually kinda ruins my day. Now, I have to put up with it at times, because that's just the way the world works. And even a politically correct society doesn't actually control what homophobes say, it doesn't prevent them from speaking their mind, giving me their honest opinion, and so on.

What a politically correct society DOES do, is say to said homophobes, 'hey. Knock it off, we're not cool with you exercising this delusion that you're better than him just because he dates dudes.' That's it. Its not a law, its not a mandate, its a society regulating itself and saying look, times have changed, deal with it.

I'm not a moron. I'm fully capable of picking up on subtext and side-eyed glances. When I'm talking to someone who thinks less of me because of my sexual orientation, I am very aware of it, whether he/she says what they're really thinking or keeps it internalized due to political correctness. Political correctness is never going to actually change their mind about me, no matter how much it is or isn't enforced. But that's not the point.

The point is in the fact that whether or not the homophobe speaks his mind IS irrelevant. That regardless of what he says or thinks, the rest of society has evolved to the point where there's an actual stance that says 'the rest of us over here do not approve of your homophobia.' That matters FAR more to me than the opinion of each invididual homophobe. That we as a society are now very clear in saying that in a country that declares all men (and women) are created equal, there has to be give and take. No one group gets to have it their way all the time. Sometimes, someone else's needs or wants or going to be prioritized above yours.


----------



## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

I believe early in the thread, someone mentioned liking Robert Heinlein's work, but not always agreeing with him. (after thinking back, I believe it was a completely different thread)  He had a number of lines that are relevant here, so I thought I'd toss them in and stir the pot...

"A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill"
(I actually don't remember this one, but stumbled over it while looking up wording of others!)


"Never insult anyone by accident."

"I never learned from a man Who agreed with me."

"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend."
(I'm deliberately omitting the sentence that originally followed this....saves time for Ann and Betsy)

"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as “empty,” “meaningless,” or “dishonest,” and scorn to use them. No matter how “pure” their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best."
(this was the one I remembered that actually got me started on this idea....)


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> OK, I don't even know what that means but I'm thinking this thread has jumped the shark...
> 
> Betsy


how *did * a thread that started out with a suggestion to writers to proof their thread titles become about heinlein quotes about honorifics?


----------



## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

telracs said:


> how *did * a thread that started out with a suggestion to writers to proof their thread titles become about heinlein quotes about honorifics?


Could be worse.

We could be using Hubbard quotes.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Could be worse.
> 
> We could be using Hubbard quotes.


no, believe me, he knows better. or i unleash the pirahna


Spoiler



again


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

telracs said:


> how *did * a thread that started out with a suggestion to writers to proof their thread titles become about heinlein quotes about honorifics?


----------



## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

telracs said:


> no, believe me, he knows better. or i unleash the pirahna
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Huh. I kinda wanna see that.

Quick, somebody help me hack Claw's account.


----------



## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Usually when someone has a problem with political correctness, its because they're mistakenly assuming its about THEM. Its not.


Nonsense, most people - as you say you can yourself - can interpret nuance, can decide what is directed at them and what is not. This claim is arrogance - suggesting that people who object to Political Correctness don't understand it. I certainly don't assume without cause.



Kalen ODonnell said:


> I date men. And I don't particularly like having to put up with homophobic idiots giving me grief about it and calling me a ***, etc. It usually kinda ruins my day. Now, I have to put up with it at times, because that's just the way the world works. And even a politically correct society doesn't actually regulate what homophobes say, it doesn't prevent them from speaking their mind, giving me their honest opinion, and so on.


Blame the Church - that is where it all started. The little men in the long black dresses claim that it "an abomination in the eyes of God".



Kalen ODonnell said:


> What a politically correct society DOES do, is say to said homophobes, 'hey. Knock it off, we're not cool with you exercising this delusion that you're better than him just because he dates dudes.' That's it. Its not a law, its not a mandate, its a society regulating itself and saying look, times have changed, deal with it.


That is not political correctness UNLESS the person saying it doesn't believe it to be so. It is just an opinion - no correctness needed.



Kalen ODonnell said:


> I'm not a moron. I'm fully capable of picking up on subtext and side-eyed glances. When I'm talking to someone who thinks less of me because of my sexual orientation, I am very aware of it, whether he/she says what they're really thinking or keeps it internalized due to political correctness. Political correctness is never going to actually change their mind about me, no matter how much it is or isn't enforced. But that's not the point.


No, it is not.



Kalen ODonnell said:


> The point is in the fact that whether or not the homophobe speaks his mind IS irrelevant.


Really? If no homophobes "spoke their mind" homophobia would not be a problem. It would fade away like belief in a flat earth.



Kalen ODonnell said:


> That regardless of what he says or thinks, the rest of society has evolved to the point where there's an actual stance that says 'the rest of us over here do not approve of your homophobia.'


If that is Political Correctness then you are dealing with a homophobe. If it is a genuine belief, then it is not Political Correctness.



Kalen ODonnell said:


> That matters FAR more to me than the opinion of each invididual homophobe. That we as a society are now very clear in saying that in a country that declares all men (and women) are created equal, there has to be give and take. No one group gets to have it their way all the time. Sometimes, someone else's needs or wants or going to be prioritized above yours.


That is often the case and it is not relevant. Much of my life involves another person's needs having a higher priority than mine. My wife, my children, my friends, the charity I volunteer for, the SES in emergencies. None of these have anything to do with Political Correctness.


----------



## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

The Hooded Claw said:


> I believe early in the thread, someone mentioned liking Robert Heinlein's work, but not always agreeing with him. (after thinking back, I believe it was a completely different thread) He had a number of lines that are relevant here, so I thought I'd toss them in and stir the pot...
> 
> "A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill"
> (I actually don't remember this one, but stumbled over it while looking up wording of others!)
> ...


"Never insult anyone by accident" sounds like something that Churchill would say.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

DarkScribe said:


> I am no different in my everyday life. I do not try NOT to get along, I am more than happy to get on well with others, but I will not "pretend" in order to do so. I sincerely believe that many of the problems in modern society are directly related to Political Correctness. Political correctness only comes into play when it becomes necessary to be less than truthful, to suppress genuine opinion, to avoid having others know how we really feel. How is that helpful to anyone in the long term? How is living in a pretend world, among people who hide their true feelings, not ever knowing what or who is real, a good thing? The hypocrisy involved is something I choke on.
> 
> Political Correctness always reminds me of that ubiquitous female fake niceness. A group of women get together, all nice and kissy-kissiy, admiring and complimenting each other until one moves out of earshot. Then the others attack her. "Doesn't she own a mirror?" "That hair style is terrible, someone should tell her". She's putting on a bit of weight - isn't she?" Did you hear about her husband and that women?" etc., etc. It is all around us in real life, (I work in an office full of women) depicted in books, movies and plays, and it is as old as time.
> 
> I am always willing to help others, I don't initiate any deliberate form of insult, and I don't hold grudges; but I will never pretend simply in order to please someone who I don't know. I will only rarely do it for those I love - the last time was reassuring my mother that she would be fine - the night before she died. I will do it for my kids, to boost confidence or reassure, but I will never make it a "matter of course" everyday practice the way so many insist on doing. I abhor the practice.


Actually you are a lot more likely to be put down for _being_ "politically correct" (or as I prefer to call it being reasonably respectful of other human beings). Of course, I will admit that it isn't pretense on my part. I don't feel the need to disparage other people for their skin color, intelligence quotient, gender or sexual orientation, so why would I do so? Your rather nasty story about women's supposedly ubiquitous behavior is an excellent example of people who prefer attacking others for their gender or whatever. But of course, you "don't initiate any deliberate form of insult," just tell women that we're all vicious b1tches. (Nor do I generalize your attitude and assume that all men share your horrible attitude)

Your believe that demeaning other people is preferable is a common and widely accepted one.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

DarkScribe said:


> Nonsense, most people - as you say you can yourself - can interpret nuance, can decide what is directed at them and what is not. This claim is arrogance - suggesting that people who object to Political Correctness don't understand it. I certainly don't assume without cause.


Wait, so declaring that a system you don't agree with is the root of all modern problems isn't arrogance.

But when I state that taking a system intended to keep straight white men from using privilege to dominate situations and making it all about how it negatively impacts you shows a fundamental misunderstanding of political correctness - that is arrogance?

Regretfully, I have to bow out of this conversation on account of I have to go mop my exploded brains off the floor.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Regretfully, I have to bow out of this conversation on account of I have to go mop my exploded brains off the floor.


The cabana boys will take care of it...

Betsy


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## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> The cabana boys will take care of it...
> 
> Betsy


I knew there was a reason I liked this place!


----------



## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Oh yeah, The cabana boys.. there are pics somewhere........... from last winter I believe...


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Wait, so declaring that a system you don't agree with is the root of all modern problems isn't arrogance.
> 
> But when I state that taking a system intended to keep straight white men from using privilege to dominate situations and making it all about how it negatively impacts you shows a fundamental misunderstanding of political correctness - that is arrogance?
> 
> Regretfully, I have to bow out of this conversation on account of I have to go mop my exploded brains off the floor.


Hmmmm. How does _"I sincerely believe that many of the problems in modern society are directly related to Political Correctness._" translate to "all modern problems? Is English not your first language?

Regardless, it is a strongly held belief of mine that MANY of the current problems are related to an inability for many members of society to express genuine opinion. Look at the vote regarding immigration in Switzerland not so long ago. The population de-cloaked, discarded their PC personas in the privacy of the voting booth. Look at the rise of Politically INCORRECT political parties emerging all over Europe and the Western World. It doesn't tell you something? It tells anyone who cares to look with an open mind that the impression given by many is not supported in real tests.

By the way, you should try to get those brains up pretty quickly - they go off rather rapidly if not kept refrigerated.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> Actually you are a lot more likely to be put down for _being_ "politically correct" (or as I prefer to call it being reasonably respectful of other human beings). Of course, I will admit that it isn't pretense on my part. I don't feel the need to disparage other people for their skin color, intelligence quotient, gender or sexual orientation, so why would I do so? Your rather nasty story about women's supposedly ubiquitous behavior is an excellent example of people who prefer attacking others for their gender or whatever. But of course, you "don't initiate any deliberate form of insult," just tell women that we're all vicious b1tches. (Nor do I generalize your attitude and assume that all men share your horrible attitude)
> 
> Your believe that demeaning other people is preferable is a common and widely accepted one.


Nasty story? Perhaps you have led a very sheltered life.

Start a poll on the subject - see what others have to say. Do women gossip about each other behind their backs? Do women pretend to like things about other women that in truth they dislike. I think that this is where PC started. I really doubt that it started with heterosexual men. Even some of my Gay friends have problems with patently phony PC attitudes - and they can be far more cutting in response than I ever am.

As for the rest, I don't disparage anyone for anything other than on occasion for the things that they say. Particularly when they try to put their words in my mouth.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

This topic has definitely jumped the shark.  We've gone far afield from the original topic, and to avoid more brains on the floor (we have a light crew of cabana boys due to the US holiday weekend), I'm locking this.  I encourage you all to find another topic to discuss.  We've got lots of 'em.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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