# Lack of romance in speculative fiction



## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

I'm curious, do you (yes_ you_) prefer fantasy/paranormal/horror stories with romance as a central plot point, or do you avoid that aspect of these genres?

I ask because I get mighty annoyed when there's a great premise, good plotting, and then tacked onto all that awesome is a lurve triangle or instant romance that feels tacked on.

I know it would be unnatural for characters to have zero romantic motivations/feelings, but I'm feeling the burn of this in these genres. I don't mind it is part of the story, or any amount of love-plot if the book describes itself as a romance.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

winifredburton said:


> I ask because I get mighty annoyed when there's a great premise, good plotting, and then tacked onto all that awesome is a lurve triangle or instant romance that feels tacked on.


Agreed.

Mike


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I have no objection to a romantic element in anything I read -- though spec fict isn't really my thing.

But I really really don't like something that is ONLY romance. I find those deadly dull and generally filled with characters who spend most of their time being stupidly obtuse about each other. If that's the only plot there is, I totally don't see the point. 

I realize that there are many who will read those sentences and think _I_ am stupidly obtuse.  I'm o.k. with that. 

I'll also note that I have read some pure romances that I quite liked -- definitely depends on the characters. But I find them few and far between and, generally, I want there to be some completely objective plot going on as the main event.

Bottom line -- if done well, it's fine; if done poorly, it's not. And I'm not sure people will even all agree on definitions of 'well' and 'poorly'. More likely there's a range from 'horrible' to 'excellent' and everyond will come down at a different spot along the line.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

I like romance as a subplot--and by that I mean a legit SUBPLOT.  It has to grow over time and be ROMANTIC.  And by that I mean, There's a difference between lust/sex and actual romance.  I'm more interested in the subtle changes/clues the characters might go through than the "I cannot control myself around a vampire because it's like a drug" type of stuff.  I actually just RETURNED a book because it was supposed to be Urban Fantasy and within the first 50 or so pages?  The main had already suffered from "nearly overwhelmed/loss of control" with...gosh, let's see.  Three major characters?  Yup...no wait!  FOUR characters.  There was a minor incident in there.  

The writing was good.  There was an intriguing premise.  There were great characters--brownies, fae, vamps, talking trees (or possibly talking trees).  But what started out as sane soon became...I'm ranting, aren't I?

Sorry.

Uhm.  As a subplot.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

I always feel there should be some sort of romance in a story.

My favorite science fiction stories were those where there was a romantic relationship between lead characters, or at least the hint of something budding between them. I enjoy the interplay between the two personalities. I greatly dislike those stories where the idea of romance is "body-heat and a hole" for the protagonist. In my mind, a protagonist needs something to fight for in the story.


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## SLGray (Dec 21, 2013)

I think the key phrase here is 'tacked on', right? 

I've written, and therefore read, quite a lot of romance. I'm a big fan of specfic, so that tends to be where I read, too. And I will agree with you, there are a lot of books where the attention to detail in building a romance is lacking. Either the relationship feels like it's purely physical and will probably not survive much past the end of the book, or it's there because the author didn't do a great job of convincing me the characters actually cared about one another.

There's a very thin line between for most people between urban fantasy and paranormal romance. Which side of the divide any book falls on is usually determined by which aspect of the book is front and center. If the book is more about the plot and the supernatural critters and events as the story progresses, then it's considered UF, and romantic elements may be present, but they don't drive the story. If the book is about the relationship and that happens to involve supernatural sorts, it's a paranormal romance.

But an author can *intend* for one aspect to be stronger than another and not pull it off for every reader. It's tricky.


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I have no objection to a romantic element in anything I read -- though spec fict isn't really my thing.
> 
> But I really really don't like something that is ONLY romance. I find those deadly dull and generally filled with characters who spend most of their time being stupidly obtuse about each other. If that's the only plot there is, I totally don't see the point.


Ann, I think this phenomenon happens in spec fiction also. At a certain point, the idea that one person is completely unaware another person is madly in love with them becomes completely unbelievable (I'm looking at you Ms. Everdeen).


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

MariaESchneider said:


> I like romance as a subplot--and by that I mean a legit SUBPLOT. It has to grow over time and be ROMANTIC. And by that I mean, There's a difference between lust/sex and actual romance. I'm more interested in the subtle changes/clues the characters might go through than the "I cannot control myself around a I actually just RETURNED a book because it was supposed to be Urban Fantasy and within the first 50 or so pages? The main had already suffered from "nearly overwhelmed/loss of control" with...gosh, let's see. Three major characters? Yup...no wait! FOUR characters. There was a minor incident in there.
> 
> The writing was good. There was an intriguing premise. There were great characters--brownies, fae, vamps, talking trees (or possibly talking trees). But what started out as sane soon became...I'm ranting, aren't I?
> 
> ...


I LIKE rants. They're my favorite. Four uncontrollable romances in the first 50 pages? Is it wrong that I'm intrigued? I think this instance is unusual, ahem, for number of participants, but this is what I mean. How much main storyline are you advancing if there's that much time devoted to romantic interests?


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

SLGray said:


> I think the key phrase here is 'tacked on', right?
> 
> I've written, and therefore read, quite a lot of romance. I'm a big fan of specfic, so that tends to be where I read, too. And I will agree with you, there are a lot of books where the attention to detail in building a romance is lacking. Either the relationship feels like it's purely physical and will probably not survive much past the end of the book, or it's there because the author didn't do a great job of convincing me the characters actually cared about one another.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm doing it wrong? It being urban fantasy. I've never seen the genres as romantic by definition, though perhaps romantic by default. Tacked on is definitely the problem, if I have to read another tortured love triangle, I am going to need someone to hide the sharp objects.



WDR said:


> I always feel there should be some sort of romance in a story.
> 
> My favorite science fiction stories were those where there was a romantic relationship between lead characters, or at least the hint of something budding between them. I enjoy the interplay between the two personalities. I greatly dislike those stories where the idea of romance is "body-heat and a hole" for the protagonist. In my mind, a protagonist needs something to fight for in the story.


I also like the hidden and hinted threads of romantic feelings in stories, but these aren't the instances I'm talking about. And what passes for romance in some stories, what is considered romantic? Different thread of ranting on its own.


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## SLGray (Dec 21, 2013)

winifredburton said:


> I guess I'm doing it wrong? It being urban fantasy. I've never seen the genres as romantic by definition, though perhaps romantic by default. Tacked on is definitely the problem, if I have to read another tortured love triangle, I am going to need someone to hide the sharp objects.


Oh, no. I didn't mean to imply you were doing it wrong. UF isn't romantic by definition. It just very often has romantic elements in it, and sometimes the line between UF and PNR is very thin. There's no requirement for romance in UF if you don't want it there.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

winifredburton said:


> I LIKE rants. They're my favorite. Four uncontrollable romances in the first 50 pages? Is it wrong that I'm intrigued? I think this instance is unusual, ahem, for number of participants, but this is what I mean. How much main storyline are you advancing if there's that much time devoted to romantic interests?


Ah, but they weren't "romance" exactly. The first encounter had that setup as a possibility, but it was mostly "must resist the urges. This can never work out." The second was some sort of fleeting "magical induced, I'll just comfort this dude even though...wait! What am I doing? Where did this urge come from" Letsee. The third was, "Vamp! Mind control! Can't...resist..." This was from a vamp I don't think she had met before. They were interrupted. The fourth was "Vamp! Ohnoes! I cannot escape as I am trapped here and I am bound to become a meal...but it will be so pleasant...whatever shall I do?" NO idea if that turned into anything more as that is where I "slammed the book closed" and returned it.

In those same pages, there was already a murder, the possibility that the murder was pinned on the wrong person and some interesting characters and magical systems introduced. So the plot looked to be there, but egads. I cannot be expected to hunt for the plot through "Every time I see something of the male persuasion there will be an 'encounter' of the lust kind."

I'm not even sure that would fall under paranormal romance. It was more like, "Red hot mess."


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

In general, romance is not a driving factor in my selection of SF/F to read, and that probably makes me a fairly typical male reader of the genre (whether we want to admit it or not). I normally have no problem coping with it when it's there, as long as it rings true and makes sense, does not bog the story down with sentimentality, and is devoid of cliches. (If I read about one more female love interest with green eyes, I think I may throw my Kindle across the room -- okay, not really, but it's tempting.)

As far as the tacked-on aspect goes, that holds true for any aspect of a story: if it doesn't make sense within the context of everything else, then it's going to feel wrong, whether it's romance, action, introspection, dialogue, whatever. Any time an author (including screenwriters) lets some formula dictate what will be included in a story versus letting it build itself, s/he risks creating an awkward, misfitting pastiche instead of a well integrated whole.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

I certainly don't like romances that feel tacked on but I think a good author can weave a good romance in while not making it the central focus - like someone else said, I enjoy it as a legit subplot, not superficially tacked on but also not the main plot.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

winifredburton said:


> I'm curious, do you (yes_ you_) prefer fantasy/paranormal/horror stories with romance as a central plot point, or do you avoid that aspect of these genres?


If romance is the central plot point, then the book IS a romance. I absolutely HATE picking up a book that is supposed to be a horror or a fantasy that turns out to just be a romance featuring vampires or fairies.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> If romance is the central plot point, then the book IS a romance. I absolutely HATE picking up a book that is supposed to be a horror or a fantasy that turns out to just be a romance featuring vampires or fairies.


I agree when it comes to historical fiction - I hate when I pick up a book claiming to be historical fiction and it turns out to be historical romance where the history takes a back seat (or no seat at all) to the romance.


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## Trophywife007 (Aug 31, 2009)

winifredburton said:


> ... Four uncontrollable romances in the first 50 pages? Is it wrong that I'm intrigued? I think this instance is unusual, ahem, for number of participants, but this is what I mean.


This made me laugh because I was "intrigued" too. Was it one of the Anita Blake novels?


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Trophywife007 said:


> This made me laugh because I was "intrigued" too. Was it one of the Anita Blake novels?


No, but it certainly could have been. I stopped reading those around book 6.

It was called The Sweet Scent of Blood by Suzanne McLeod. Shrug.

Thankfully there are more books out there and I'm sure I'll find one more to my liking!


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> If romance is the central plot point, then the book IS a romance. I absolutely HATE picking up a book that is supposed to be a horror or a fantasy that turns out to just be a romance featuring vampires or fairies.


ITA with this. It feels like I've been tricked. I'm also starting to feel like a lot of genre stuff lately is different flavored romance if that makes sense.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

winifredburton said:


> ITA with this. It feels like I've been tricked. I'm also starting to feel like a lot of genre stuff lately is different flavored romance if that makes sense.


True. I think part of the problem is that most publishers and authors don't understand the role of genre. (Warning: I am something of a Genre Nazi.   I consider mislabeling the genre of a book akin to false advertisement). But people look at genre as something "restrictive" that "stifles my creativity!" But actually genre is a wonderful tool that helps writers connect with the type of reader that really wants to read your work. People write a romance and then say "Well, my erotic romance has a vampire in it, so I'm going to classify it as horror too." That makes as much sense as saying "Well,. my erotic romance has children in it because my heroine has a daughter, so I'm going to classify it as children's literature too." Nobody would do that! (At least, I would hope! ).


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## LSBurton (Jan 31, 2014)

I find it's more of an issue in movies than books, plots cobbled together and rearranged to attract the widest possible audience. 

But I guess the same could go for books as well. A lot of times, the idea and the environment are the main devices for carrying the piece in speculative fiction. They're the reasons why the book is being written. So the author might throw in the idea of a little romance to humanize the characters who otherwise exist solely to flush out the fun central ideas and environments.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

Everybody's going to classify their books to get the most sales, and I don't think that's going to change. Big publishers do it as well as self publishers (and sometimes Amazon throws you in random categories whether you want them to or not!). Still, I've found good books that I wouldn't have found if they hadn't have been listed elsewhere. 

I am not as bothered by "tacked on" romance as I am by instant romance, and as long as it feels natural, I'm okay with it in spec fic. Two hundred pages of hating each other, then suddenly they're best friends and lovers. Bleh. Or else they meet and instantly everything is so deeply emotional.   I like to see growth, and I like to see both have some depth as people, and I don't see that very often.


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## hs (Feb 15, 2011)

winifredburton said:


> I ask because I get mighty annoyed when there's a great premise, good plotting, and then tacked onto all that awesome is a lurve triangle or instant romance that feels tacked on.


I know what you mean. I don't mind when there's romance. I even expect it in almost every genre I read. The question is how the romantic relationship builds and whether it feels like a natural extension of the plot/characters or whether it feels forced because the author decided that romance _needed_ to be added to the story.

Don't get me started on love triangles or insta-love though. That's a whole other source of annoyance!


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

hs said:


> Don't get me started on love triangles or insta-love though. That's a whole other source of annoyance!


Please start, lol. Honestly with some genres, the love triangle drama is so pervasive, I've begun to question why I don't have messy love triangle in my life. Being caught between two equally appealing yet totally opposite people who are both equally intensely in love with you is a really common thing, but I guess it could happen to me next week if not today.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

My favorite pre-Kindle pastime was browsing the Sci-fi/Fantasy shelves at my local B&N, but there was this disturbing moment when I realized that I had wandered from the sci-fi/fantasy shelves into the romance shelves and hadn't even realized it.  The covers were the same.  The plots were the same.  I LITERALLY didn't realize.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

MariaESchneider said:


> No, but it certainly could have been. I stopped reading those around book 6.
> 
> It was called The Sweet Scent of Blood by Suzanne McLeod. Shrug.
> 
> Thankfully there are more books out there and I'm sure I'll find one more to my liking!


I bounced hard off that book, too, and I actually like romantic speculative fiction. However, that one was just one red hot mess.

Surprisingly, it spawned at least one sequel.


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## hs (Feb 15, 2011)

winifredburton said:


> Honestly with some genres, the love triangle drama is so pervasive, I've begun to question why I don't have messy love triangle in my life. Being caught between two equally appealing yet totally opposite people who are both equally intensely in love with you is a really common thing, but I guess it could happen to me next week if not today.


I read a lot of YA, and love triangles are everywhere. It doesn't matter if it's an apocalyptic story about the end of the world, but there always has to be two guys who are vying for the love of the female protagonist (most YA stories I read feature a female protagonist) while they try to survive in a brutal world. Really?

It seems like, realistically, finding one love is hard enough, so throwing in the love triangle is just adding unneeded drama for the sake of drama rather than focusing on the central plot. As you mentioned, how often do you encounter love triangles in real life anyway? If you read the books I read, you'd think that's the norm when it comes to relationships. I hope young readers of these stories don't grow up thinking that's how their lives are supposed to be and that something's wrong with them if they're not constantly in love triangles.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

hs said:


> I read a lot of YA, and love triangles are everywhere. It doesn't matter if it's an apocalyptic story about the end of the world, but there always has to be two guys who are vying for the love of the female protagonist (most YA stories I read feature a female protagonist) while they try to survive in a brutal world. Really?


I did a blog post recently on plots in Korean dramas, and I found it interesting that they tend toward squares or multiples of 2. Each of the leads has another interest, and some of those have others, too. They don't always resolve neatly, but they start out so.


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

I don't read romance novels, but I do like romance in what I read.  It just brings emotions to the table for me.


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

LynnBlackmar said:


> I did a blog post recently on plots in Korean dramas, and I found it interesting that they tend toward squares or multiples of 2. Each of the leads has another interest, and some of those have others, too. They don't always resolve neatly, but they start out so.


Lynn this sounds a lot more reasonable/ realistic.


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

Ugh, love triangles. I've gone on a YA hiatus because I'm so tired of them. Squares would be so much more interesting!

Romance sells books. I'm slowly learning that through experimentation on Wattpad.


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## ekerrigan (Feb 28, 2014)

I agree romance definitely sells, but for myself, I completely understand what winifredburton is saying. I don't read young adult, so I cannot speak to that genre. For the books I do read, I also find it easier to tell nowadays when an author is simply providing the ingredients to a recipe rather than a story. This is dish I am talking about in particular:

The main character is a loner/underdog that has recently gotten themselves in to a whole bunch of personal issues. And 'lo and behold! They have the chance to make themselves in to the hero and make all those personal problems disappear. Oh look, there's this person that is completely opposite to them in all respects (some straight-and-narrow gal/guy) and now they are lusting for each other. Surprise, happy ending!

Did that sound too bitter?? I hope not. Because if you love this type of thing, awesome! It's just not for me. There was another thread about when we decide not to finish a book. If I start seeing the above, I definitely will not. Unfortunately this means I don't read a lot of crime novels anymore. However this is why I like true science fiction, as I do not encounter this much in the genre.


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## jeremy young (Feb 28, 2014)

I think it was Raymond Chandler who said, 'when I don't know what happens next I have someone walk in with a gun.'

As others have mentioned it depends on how you define romance, and it is all too easy for romance to be 'the someone walking in with a gun' sex scene. 

Though for me the problem is the way books are divided up into genres. Were Anna Karenina written today, it would no doubt be labeled a romance, which it is, but it is also more than that. And frankly I like a novel to have romance, and I don't mind a bit of bodice ripping - heck I don't mind a lot of bodice ripping - if it has a point.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

I like it if done right. I think its a little odd and unrealistic to have completely asexual beings who show no interest in love or sex. "All I do is save the world" but it shouldn't be tacked on as an extra, it should part of the characters normal. Maybe the character is celibate now and its not really a good time for lovin' what with the alien invasion and all...but people still think about it. I mean don't they say men can't go thirty seconds without thinking about it? 

but love triangles are icky...I have never been in love more than one SO at a time so I can't relate. Just pick one already you wimp.


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

ekerrigan you have articulated what bothered me about this trend/trope: recipe.  It's formulaic and weird in my opinion. I am capable of swooning (albeit under limited circumstances) in the middle of read. I enjoy heaving laces and ripped clothing in the name of well written ahem, character development. I also think that love triangles can be used to great dramatic and tortured effect like in Anna Karenina or one of my favorite reads Wuthering Heights. For ex. The parade of lovers and suitors of Khaleesi? Doing it right.

What I'm whining about,  , is a plot that consists almost entirely of will main character (almost always female) choose love interest A vs. love interest B. There is usually very little doubt about which choice the character will make, even though we will be strung along for a book or three. I would love to see the trope inverted, watch a main character make the wrong choice and see how that plays out or have a love triangle be a piece of a story, not the story itself, particularly in a book that is allegedly not a romance.

I am pro-romance in books of all kinds, but I dislike having a random "Oh noes two equally hot people who would both die for me but are total opposites of each other love me with all their heart. Deciding which of these guys to be with is now the most important thing in this story."

I agree that it sells and I respect writers who give their fans what they want. It's just not something I enjoy as a reader.


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## hs (Feb 15, 2011)

winifredburton said:


> I am pro-romance in books of all kinds, but I dislike having a random "Oh noes two equally hot people who would both die for me but are total opposites of each other love me with all their heart. Deciding which of these guys to be with is now the most important thing in this story."
> 
> I agree that it sells and I respect writers who give their fans what they want. It's just not something I enjoy as a reader.


This is how I feel too. I wonder why love triangles like the one you described sell so well, especially for books that aren't romances. Are there that many people out there who are looking for that type of unrealistic, formulaic plot?


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