# What was your last royalty check?



## Sharlow (Dec 20, 2009)

We have ton's of threads talking about how many books this Indy sold and how much that Indy sold...But what does that really mean to someone starting out in this business? A thousand books sold sounds like a lot to the newbie, but is it? At 0.35 royalty for a 0.99 copy that's only $350. That's actually pretty good for someone starting out, in fact it took me over a year to get a check that big. But can anyone really live on that? 

Think about the fact that 2000 of those books sold is still only $700.  Look around and see how many of us sell 2000 books a month. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, I just think maybe sometime we all need a reality check so we can avoid disappointment as well as be encouraged. Can you make a living at this? Yes, just look at Amanda Hocking as an example. An extreme example to be sure, or look at someone like David Dalglish. He makes around 10k a month. Even he could be considered an outlier. So what do some of the more normal people make? Well that's what I'm hoping some kind people will be willing to share in this thread.

I'm asking who ever chooses to participate, to share with us what your last Royalty check was. not how many books you sold this month, but what your last check was. Got that? For all we know Amazon could fall off the face of the world tomorrow and not pay us all a dime of our future earnings, so lets just share what we actually have had put in our hands or banks. Thanks ahead a time to every one. 

So I guess I should start and get the ball rolling. My last checks added up to a little over $1,600. Not a lot but a God send these days. Alright, lets let' em  rip.


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## Mel Comley (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm a little worried, I should have had a cheque by now and not received one. Off to write to Amazon! lol


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## brian70 (Mar 26, 2010)

About 19 bucks. hehe. Not complaining though. I hardly do any marketing (just don't like it), and I don't think mine is an extremely popular genre. I know that I have a lot of room to improve as a writer as well. I just find it rewarding, so I keep doing it although it has been far from lucrative. 

It is pretty nice getting some money from Amazon for a change instead of me always sending them some too.    

Congrats to all for your success. Very impressive.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Brian, you aren't alone.  I hate marketing and don't do much.  And a book about a pet psychic?  Could I get much more eclectic niche if I tried?  LOL

That being said, if you want to hear from a newcomer, I got my first royalty check this month. It combined a couple of sales in Jan (as I hadn't hit the threshold to get a check for it last month) with February, and the check was for 35.00.  It will be much less the next time though as during that period, I changed my pricing from 2.99 to .99.

It helped me buy some food though and I was happy as I really needed it.    I can't fathom doing as well as many here, but it sure would be wonderful.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Sharlow, your avatar is mesmerizing.  But I'm always afraid if I stare at it too long, he might look up at me.  Yikes!


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## brian70 (Mar 26, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> Brian, you aren't alone. I hate marketing and don't do much. And a book about a pet psychic? Could I get much more eclectic niche if I tried? LOL
> 
> That being said, if you want to hear from a newcomer, I got my first royalty check this month. It combined a couple of sales in Jan (as I hadn't hit the threshold to get a check for it last month) with February, and the check was for 35.00. It will be much less the next time though as during that period, I changed my pricing from 2.99 to .99.
> 
> It helped me buy some food though and I was happy as I really needed it.  I can't fathom doing as well as many here, but it sure would be wonderful.


Not a bad start, Jeanne. May your royalties grow exponentially.

Btw, your pet psychic book is waaay out of my area but looks very interesting. Off to check it out now.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you for wanting to take a look.  I can well imagine it is a bit out of the way for you.  I don't even understand the words under your avatar.  That's the wonderful thing about kindleboards, though.  We get to meet so many people we wouldn't normally meet.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

Sharlow said:


> I'm asking who ever chooses to participate, to share with us what your last Royalty check was. not how many books you sold this month, but what your last check was. Got that? For all we know Amazon could fall off the face of the world tomorrow and not pay us all a dime of our future earnings, so lets just share what we actually have had put in our hands or banks. Thanks ahead a time to every one.


Why? Does it change anything YOU make to ask such a personal question? If you were *truly* using it for comparisons, then you'd also want to know the price of the book. But you didn't want to know that, so it just makes you look nosy. Would it change the way you marketed? Maybe, but you didn't ask that, either. If you walked up to me at a book conference and asked me that question, I'd laugh in your face and then vow to never speak to you again. If you were face-to-face with me, you'd think it rude and you'd be right. Why does anonymity give you the right to poke your nose in where I didn't ask you to go?

If we have one MAJOR failing of the authors who frequent these boards, it's that they're too d***ed hung up on money. Asking someone what they did or didn't make is just in poor taste, whether they choose to tell you or not. I realise you may be new, and you probably haven't asked the question before, but I'm fed up with seeing this type of question, so it's not YOU--I'm sick to death of the SUBJECT and I'm hoping maybe the majority of authors here will wake up and stop answering such stupid questions. It makes EVERYONE here look like amateur idiots. The thoughts of Barry Eisler asking Neil Gaiman what his last royalty cheque was is just too stupid to think about, so why should we lower the bar for everyone?

Apologies for offending everyone. Sometimes, you just have to speak up and ask the nonsense to stop.


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## brian70 (Mar 26, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> Thank you for wanting to take a look. I can well imagine it is a bit out of the way for you. I don't even understand the words under your avatar. That's the wonderful thing about kindleboards, though. We get to meet so many people we wouldn't normally meet.


It means "I carry all my books with me." On my Kindle or iPhone, that is. As a lifelong book lover I still can't get over how cool that is even after having a Kindle for over two years now. It is a play on a similar quote (Omnia mea mecum porto) by Cicero, the famous Roman orator and statesman.

Oh, and I agree, lots of great people here.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> Apologies for offending everyone.


I accept your apology.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Ok, I have to say this. Stating the precise amount of your royalties per month is, in my opinion, incredibly gauche.

There. I said it.

Now, as for the question of whether writers can make a living from e-book royalties, I was recently treated to an article addressing that issue. I will post the link below, but it seems that only a small percentage are bringing in over 50,000/year. These comparisons (how many have you sold? How much are you making?) include so many variables as to be virtually worthless. Every writer's situation is unique. You want to place yourselves on some bell-curve--a natural inclination--but hardly worthwhile. I could care less what others are making. It has little if any relevance to my own situation and product.

So? Just write good books, don't rush them into publication before they are ready, and market as best you can. Quitting our day jobs might be nice, but should it be a requirement or even a goal? We write because we love to write. Personally, I won't quit my day job (despite earning very respectable royalties) until/unless sales continue and/or escalate for a lot longer. These sales have been a happy surprise, but they could evaporate at any moment. I'd would not advise writers to quit their day jobs unless they could easily secure other employment should conditions (and the market) change. (Note: It probably helps that I have a marvelously fulfilling day job and am not employed as a turkey inseminator.)

There seems to be a mentality that everyone has to be an Amanda Hocking. Well, unless you ARE Amanda Hocking, you won't be. Me, I'm C.S. Marks. I write for pleasure, and the profit is a pleasant side-effect. Best part is: once the books are out there in publishable form, I have to do very little to collect the profit. That means I have time to work on more books. Maybe I'll make a lot of money and maybe I won't. What bearing does that have on my desire to tell the Tales of Alterra? Writers write. My (admittedly unasked for) advice: Stop all this obsessing over sales and $$ and get back to it!

The link, as promised: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/novel-rejected-theres-an-e-book-gold-rush/2011/04/09/AFZdqb9F_story.html


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Wow...I'm stupid and gauche.  Who knew?  Guess I can rest on my laurels now.


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

It's not too difficult to figure out what people make, so it isn't really "personal." We share our stats, and we help each other figure out approximately how many books you have to sell in a day to reach this or that sales rank milestone. After that, it's merely a question of looking at the sales rank and the price, and doing the math. The only unseen variables include 35% out-of-country sales for 70% pricing, and returns.

In fact, a good deal of effort on these boards goes into understanding the process and the royalties in order to make sound decisions about our pricing and marketing efforts. That may be gauche to some, but I look at it as my "job" and think people who overlook that don't take the job seriously. Or they will fail at it (unless they are wildly lucky) due to ethical principles that require them to remain blind to the details.

Here's my math: I now sell over 60 copies a day at 70% of $2.99. That's why my sales rank ranges from 940 to 1300 in the US, and from 300 to 500 in the UK. Someone who sells 115 to 130 a day said her sales rank is around 500 to 800 in the US. I have about 1% or 2% returns each month, and about 20 sales at 35%. I sell about 15 to 30 paperbacks a month, and about one or two sales a day on BN.com. I have just a smattering of sales on Apple, and Kobo and the rest. If you figure it out yourself, I'm not gauche. 

Hope that helped!


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

Earlier today I visited the Political Forum at Amazon to see how I might promote my political thriller series. After making a singular post (about the subject of the thread, not about my book, BUT, containing my signature with one link) I was asked, "Who did you vote for in the last election?" The discussion was with regard to whether or not Obama has done enough to be reelected next year.

I advised that I had never revealed my vote for the past 40 plus years. I think the premise addresses what has become a hot topic on here. I have seen threads that ask (paraphrased) "how close to poverty are you? Can you meet your bills from ebook publishing? and the repetitive thread, April/May/June Earnings Statement," etc., expecting everyone to reveal those figures. Those were topics that simply were not asked in my generation and were considered impolite, if not downright improper. As I saw this thread appear, I wondered just how many people might actually answer. I was sorry to say that a number did just that. As I returned to the thread, I wondered how long it would take for someone to stand up and say, "Hey, this isn't right!"

I don't agree with those who asked or answered being stupid, foolish, etc., but clearly it comes from the newer generation of Facebook, Tweets, and everything which allows us to say, "today I took a bath, then spilled milk on my new shoes, then went to the doctor and you won't believe what I have . . ." It's just a different perspective. One of sharing personal information and one with which I find difficulty. I also note that I was pleased to see that many people did _not _address the issue. I am also willing to admit that I continued to open the thread to "see" how many did and what their earnings were from ebooks.

Perhaps the trend was initiated by Joe Konrath who has been quite open since I first saw his Earnings Statement printout last April (2010) when he showed us all that he earned about $4,000 in one month. I showed that to my wife and said, "Wow, look what this guy is doing with Kindle." But for some reason, I never took umbrage with his public disclosure because he couched it in helpful terms and said, _"Guys, this is possible. We can do it. Join us."_ That, to me, was commendable.

But to know that one of us made $35 last month, or $117, or $655, or even $14,354 does not really help us to learn the tradecraft. I have always been happy for those who made a success of what they were attempting, while I have disdain for those who see success in others and say, "give me part." That has not happened here, but it made me think of the philosophical issue of "up through your bootstraps" or collective bargaining to "force" sharing.

Don't really know how to end this contribution to the thread except to say that I think asking the question was improper. Perhaps it was from ignorance (and that is not synonymous with stupid as authors should know) or genuine interest. In either case, I completely agree with the comment in an earlier post that if we were all sitting around a table at the KB conference, no one would dare ask the question to our face. The electronic world has given us new bravado, wrapped in anonymity. We should use it respectfully and honor the privacy rights of others in the forum. If not, someone might decide to ask us how much we weigh. At least in that case, we could lie!

Gordon Ryan


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't see any harm in it. I can see why some people would find it fun to measure how they're doing and others think of it as money matters, best kept private. I'll keep mine private, but if others want to participate, that's okay too.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

I agree, Gordon. And I do think it's a generational thing.

By the way--nice new car. Whatdja pay for it? 

With respect, Nell, I've learned far more from examining my own sales trends than from examining others'. Each of our products is unique. We _might_ share some readers, but it's unlikely our products will ever rank exactly the same in any variable other than price. We can discuss pricing and its effects openly without getting too specific (see threads 00-500-something). Packaging, quality, niche, are all different. I can check sales and rank of another author's books, but what relevance does that have to my own condition? Each author must do what works for him/her. I've held on to my ethical principles, have enjoyed a reasonable success, and can state that the success is the result of hard work and a quality product, not 'wild luck'.

(And, 'gauche' does not mean 'stupid', nor does it mean 'unethical'. It's just...gauche. We dinosaurs, apparently, have a lower gaucheness threshold. )


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

Gordon Ryan said:


> I don't agree with those who asked or answered being stupid, foolish, etc.,


To be entirely fair and to clarify lest I get accused of it, I did NOT call anyone stupid. I said that the question was stupid and I hoped folks would stop answering it, no matter in what incarnation it continues.

And it is, indeed, personal, as that's my money you're wanting to know about. If it's not that "hard" to figure out how much someone is making, then why go through the pretense of asking the question at all? Nice try. It's because it's not that easy to do, especially for authors who have multiple books at multiple price-levels on multiple forums and distribution services in multiple genres, and it had nothing to do with truly learning the curve for marketing, or else that question would've been included in the mix with a question asking for breakdowns of book genres, length, pricing and distributions lists. Whoever said there are way too many variables for this to be helpful nailed it and truly knows the principles of applied math. Couching this type of question in "pricing" and "marketing" efforts is just delusional thinking.

It is what it is, and what it is is rude and invasive.


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

Gordon Ryan said:


> but clearly it comes from the newer generation of Facebook, Tweets, and everything which allows us to say, "today I took a bath, then spilled milk on my new shoes, then went to the doctor and you won't believe what I have . . ." It's just a different perspective. One of sharing personal information and one with which I find difficulty. I also note that I was pleased to see that many people did _not _address the issue. I am also willing to admit that I continued to open the thread to "see" how many did and what their earnings were from ebooks.


My feeling about the motivation for these things is a desire to get some attention. Some many threads here promote the tiniest, most insignificant things, and the rationale has to be that somehow it'll be enough to thrust a writer into the spotlight. We all know the list of names of self-pubbed success stories, and they're thrown at us wherever we turn, and that's something the propels us to share things we normally wouldn't and probably shouldn't.


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## Debra L Martin (Apr 8, 2010)

I also don't think asking how much you made in royalties last month is helpful to anyone.  What does it prove?  Who does it help?  What kind of marketing strategy can any of us get from knowing that so-and-so made XXX number of dollars last month.  

Would anyone ask that kind of question in a face-to-face meeting or at a social event say, the company party.  "BTW, I really enjoyed your last presentation.  How much are you making again?"  That just doesn't happen and I don't think it's right to ask the question here, but then again I must be in league with Archer--you know us dinosaur's and all.

Deb


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

Archer said:


> I agree, Gordon. And I do think it's a generational thing.
> 
> By the way--nice new car. Whatdja pay for it?
> 
> ...


I know what gauche means. (Did you know that we're mostly all writers here?) But thank you so much. And I'm also a dinosaur. However, I like to think of myself as still forming.

I've been doing this for 10 years, and I've been studying every aspect of categorization, ranking, placement - you name it. I find it informative and useful, to learn what other people are doing, in addition to what I'm doing. I don't mind informing them and being useful to them in return.

I've also learned over the (many) years that you accept whatever information you get, and determine if it's useful later. You don't reject the information up front because you've made a personal value judgment against it, or because that information is NOT yours. I can't tell you the number of times I simply put random information in a pile and watched the patterns form, to my education and benefit. You're robbing yourself of those patterns, if you limit your intake. Or your patterns misrepresent the real picture.

I see threads all the time, from people who are making generalizations based on their own narrow scope. You're having bad sales? It means May is a slow month. You dropped your price to 0.99 and your sales went up, so books only sell at 0.99. That sort of thing.

So, just don't participate in threads that make you uncomfortable. That would be my advice.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Deb Martin said:


> Would anyone ask that kind of question in a face-to-face meeting or at a social event say, the company party. "BTW, I really enjoyed your last presentation. How much are you making again?" That just doesn't happen and I don't think it's right to ask the question here, but then again I must be in league with Archer--you know us dinosaur's and all.


True, and if someone had said, "Hey, Michael, how much did you make last month?" I would have blinked and then changed the subject. But to be fair, the OP did state:



> I'm asking _who ever chooses to participate,_ to share with us what your last Royalty check was. not how many books you sold this month, but what your last check was.


So it's more like being at a party and having someone say, "Hey! Everyone who wants to come skinny dip, let's go jump naked in the pool RIGHT NOW!!!!" It was a general invitation to act silly, not a specific demand. That's not an argument about the relative gauchity of the request, just to point out that it wasn't a specific request of any one person.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

Actually, speaking as a new indie author (I have some small press books, but that's another story) I find threads like this very helpful to me. I'm getting ready to retire in two years so I can write full time. I'd like to be able to earn at least $1,000 a month to supplement my retirement. This thread lets me get a "feel" for what a regular author (mid-list, you might say) as opposed to a Konrath or Hocking, might possibly earn.

By  my calculations, I need to have 8 indie books to earn what I'd like to get out of writing. I generally only produce 1 book a year, but sometimes I can push and get two. So if I can write two books a year, I'll have two lean years right after I retire, but by the third year, I should be getting close to my goal.

Although there are no certainties and I could earn more, or significantly less, this is the best projection I can make. Information from other authors makes the projections more accurate.

I come from a time when one didn't give out much personal information, but...my own current salary is a matter of public record as are the salaries of everyone I work with. We all know what each other makes. So I don't have the private company mentality where you kept your earnings secret. This can be good. Or bad. It just depends upon your perspective.

It seems weird and even a little creepy for everyone to share the intimate details of their life via the Internet, but it's a cultural change. I have to admit, however, that it comes as a great relief when we occasionally lose power for a few days and are cut off from the Internet.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I see nothing wrong with this.  Just because it isn't right for many of you, it doesn't mean it isn't right at all.  Some people are more open than others.  As the OP stated, this was for those who wished to participate.  If you didn't want to participate, then the solution is simple....don't.  Why some of you felt it necessary to come in and blast those of who did, is beyond me.

It is helpful to some who are just starting out to know they are not alone.  All that really happened here is a few people were having a nice conversation and were descended upon by people who apparently don't like it if others don't share their opinions.  It was a day ruin-er.

BTW, I have always known gauche to mean: crude...rude...unmannerly.  The comments here did not make me happy.  I'm insulted and I'm not the least bit amused at the condescension.  Think it is time I took a break from this place as an ugliness seems to have crept in.  Gee...have a nice day!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> Think it is time I took a break from this place as an ugliness seems to have crept in. Gee...have a nice day!


I hope not. It's a great, supportive place, and while there are always conflicts when you get large numbers of people of varying ages, nationalities, and cultures together, they seem fewer on this board than most other places I've been.

I once had a brief run-in with someone on this board and took a step back to look at how I could have handled things differently. I can't control anyone else's behavior, but I can commit to treat others with respect and kindness, and try not to ascribe malicious motives. Sometimes people have a bad day, or say something hasty, or hear something that pushes their buttons for various reasons. Giving people the occasional pass does more to help my own mental health than almost anything else I can do.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

opuscroakus said:


> If we have one MAJOR failing of the authors who frequent these boards, it's that they're too d***ed hung up on money. Asking someone what they did or didn't make is just in poor taste, whether they choose to tell you or not.


I wouldn't go quite as far but I do tend to agree. In my opinion it is not so much a matter of bad taste as it is putting the emphasis in the wrong area. I find measuring success in dollar amounts disturbing because that is like saying a high-priced call girl is more successful than a teacher or a nurse. Just because there is a big demand for something doesn't make those supplying it successful -- is a drug dealer more successful than a fireman.

I love that we support one another through positive encouragement, marketing ideas, offering kudos for good reviews and sympathy for bad ones. But comparing dollar amounts doesn't really prove much. I make $13 profit on one of my books which means I make $130 when I sell ten of them. Someone who sells their book for .99 has to sell 390 of them to make the same profit. Who is more successful -- the writer who sells 10 books or 390?


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

MichaelWallace said:


> Sometimes people have a bad day, or say something hasty, or hear something that pushes their buttons for various reasons. Giving people the occasional pass does more to help my own mental health than almost anything else I can do.


That's a good attitude, Mike. Point taken.

I must admit to having had my buttons pushed this morning.


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## Michael Crane (Jul 22, 2010)

Archer said:


> That's a good attitude, Mike. Point taken.
> 
> I must admit to having had my buttons pushed this morning.


I'm shocked that somebody would do such a thing!

*covers the "ARCHER BUTTON" and whistles innocently*


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## TheSFReader (Jan 20, 2011)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> Who is more successful -- the writer who sells 10 books or 390?


(outsider's view of the discussion and sorry for any button pushed, none intended) ...
Success is in the eye of the writer ! It of course depends on the goal THEY are pursuing ! If they write to make a living, both are equally successfull (and need to sell more...). If they write to be read by the highest number, clearly the latter wins. If they write "for the art", the 13$ book seller can clearly claim to sell an item of greater value, hence "validating" his artistic goal...

And of course, if everyone's goal was as clear-cut as the 3 cases upstairs ...


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Archer said:


> Ok, I have to say this. Stating the precise amount of your royalties per month is, in my opinion, incredibly gauche. There. I said it.





Deb Martin said:


> Would anyone ask that kind of question in a face-to-face meeting or at a social event say, the company party. "BTW, I really enjoyed your last presentation. How much are you making again?" That just doesn't happen and I don't think it's right to ask the question here, but then again I must be in league with Archer--you know us dinosaur's and all.


Another dinosaur here!  I have to agree with the above statements. I don't say much on the boards these days, but I will make an exception for this thread this morning. I would like to say that it doesn't bother me if posters want to say how much money or how many books they sold here for the general public to read. I would like to say that it doesn't bother me that posters here want to disembowel each other with cruel words for posters with differences of opinions because this is how it works in love, war and politics, but it does bother me for the following reasons:
1. The threads featuring numbers (dollars and sales) depress me. The big numbers make feel like a failure and the little numbers make me feel sad for the writers.
2. The threads featuring arguments and unkind words directed at other posters make me ashamed of my fellow authors for not respecting the opinions of others.
3. Being born in America a long time ago, I still uphold the Constitution of the United States as the thing that makes this forum possible. Freedom of Speech, but to read some of these posts, I sometimes think I've woke up in some foreign country.
4. Flame wars make me nervous because I live in Texas and we are under severe fire watches and I'm afraid my computer will catch on fire and start another wild fire and President Obama will come to town and try to get me to give him money. Ahhhhgghhhhhh!!!!!

Finally, thanks to Harvey and all the mods who keep this place swept clean.


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

Archer said:


> That's a good attitude, Mike. Point taken.
> 
> I must admit to having had my buttons pushed this morning.


Never, never push the buttons of someone who is carrying a longbow and a quiver full of barbs. Kind of like angering the person who is ladling up your soup.

Gordon Ryan


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Deb Martin said:


> I also don't think asking how much you made in royalties last month is helpful to anyone. What does it prove? Who does it help? What kind of marketing strategy can any of us get from knowing that so-and-so made XXX number of dollars last month.
> 
> Would anyone ask that kind of question in a face-to-face meeting or at a social event say, the company party. "BTW, I really enjoyed your last presentation. How much are you making again?" That just doesn't happen and I don't think it's right to ask the question here, but then again I must be in league with Archer--you know us dinosaur's and all.
> 
> Deb


It doesn't prove anything or help anything, but when people reveal their sales number, even in round figures, they're more or less telling you what they made as well. The logical extension of decrying the revelation of revenue is to decry the revelation of number of copies sold, yet we have a new thread for that every month.

What's my point? Um, not sure. Maybe stay out of threads you don't like and don't talk about sales if you are uncomfortable telling people what kind of revenue you're making, approximately.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> True, and if someone had said, "Hey, Michael, how much did you make last month?" I would have blinked and then changed the subject. But to be fair, the OP did state:
> 
> So it's more like being at a party and having someone say, "Hey! Everyone who wants to come skinny dip, let's go jump naked in the pool RIGHT NOW!!!!" It was a general invitation to act silly, not a specific demand. That's not an argument about the relative gauchity of the request, just to point out that it wasn't a specific request of any one person.


And that analogy might work IF we were all swimmers and seeing someone skinny dip would in some way help our own technique.

Again, this is what I said in my original post (which I think nearly everyone ignored, since I was the original one who brought up the point that no one would ask you this question to your face):

_If we have one MAJOR failing of the authors who frequent these boards, it's that they're too d***ed hung up on money. Asking someone what they did or didn't make is just in poor taste, whether they choose to tell you or not. I realise you may be new, and you probably haven't asked the question before, but I'm fed up with seeing this type of question, so it's not YOU--I'm sick to death of the SUBJECT and I'm hoping maybe the majority of authors here will wake up and stop answering such stupid questions. It makes EVERYONE here *look* like amateur idiots._ Notice I didn't say we were. _The thoughts of Barry Eisler asking Neil Gaiman what his last royalty cheque was is just too stupid to think about, so why should we lower the bar for everyone?_

Just the fact that we talk about money is rude and makes us ALL look tacky. Too many variables are involved for this conversation to be helpful to anyone. Does it REALLY help anyone to know Victorine sold squillions of books? No. We don't write her genre and market in the same places and way that she does. If we gave breakdowns of all books, genres (which DO matter in self-publishing), where they're listed for sale and for how much, THEN the conversation would contain enough real variables to be helpful.

I didn't call anyone a name. I said I wasn't even angry at the OP. I never said I was angry that anyone had a different opinion. (Man, for a group of writers, comprehension sometimes tends to be on the low side. ) I said I'm sick of this topic constantly coming up on this board, because do you know what? And I decided to leave it out of my OP but now it needs to be said: Other forums have already judged this place as amateur AND tacky because of the squillions of times they've seen threads flat out asking how much money you made last month.

There is a difference in asking someone a direct question, and in casually asking if sales have been good. That way, it leaves the door open for the one responding to either volunteer their sales information, or not. That way, those who say they benefit from such information will still know if anyone else is doing as well or better than they are (which still isn't going to be helpful because we all write in different genres and do different marketing, but, whatev), and we won't look tacky to the rest of the writing community who already has a bad opinion of KDP authors anyway. And it's THAT stigma I'll fight tooth and nail to get changed.


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## jongoff (Mar 31, 2011)

I think a reality check is good here. If you're writing to do this for a living, well... most writers make less than $5,000 a year on their books, so don't retire anytime soon.  Can you make a living as a writer? Yes, but what does that entail. Well, I make my living as a writer.  I write resumes, scripts for TV commercials, new hire manuals for companies, computer articles, newspaper articles, business proposals, advertising copy, ghost articles for business leaders, political speeches, etc.  I write a lot of things for a lot of people who need my skill to articulate clearly and concisely an otherwise complex idea.  

Now, do I want to make my living as an author? Yes, I do. Will I? I don't know. A lot depends on how well received my books are, how many people enjoy them, how wide their appeal, and therefore how large my audience. I know a couple authors, one who makes a very nice living from his writing, another who makes a living from her writing, but has to do odd jobs on the side to make ends meet.  So, the reality is that most of us probably won't make a living with our writing. The illusion that writers are rich is just that, an illusion. There certainly are rich writers, but most of us don't and won't make enough to pay the bills, so if you're writing with the idea of making a living at it, my advice is to change your focus.

Don't write with that goal in mind if you're planning on doing it just from your books.  If you want to make a living as a writer, offer your services to the business community and you can do it.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> Other forums have already judged this place as amateur AND tacky because of the squillions of times they've seen threads flat out asking how much money you made last month.


I've got a lava lamp on my writing desk and my favorite dessert is fruitcake. I'm too far gone down the tacky road to worry what people think about the internet boards I frequent.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Well, since my writing is kind of rude, tacky and gauche, I guess I can't point any fingers at Sharlow for asking how much we make. 

And since this post has kind of strayed off topic already, I just have to say that SHARLOW, I REALLY like your avatar. PJ


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

Amy Corwin said:


> This thread lets me get a "feel" for what a regular author (mid-list, you might say) as opposed to a Konrath or Hocking, might possibly earn.


I hate to break it to you, but Konrath IS a mid-list author. Mid-list is a term in traditional publishing to denote an author who has sold at least twenty-thousand copies in HARDCOVER. That doesn't include paperback sales. He hit that in his first year in 2002 with Hyperion and Whiskey Sour.

Amanda JUST signed a deal so there's no way she can be a mid-list yet.

And while we're on the subject, since I saw someone touch on this in another post, Joe may be famous for saying, "Yes, we can together!" but he's also no dummy. I've known him for years, and he's realistic enough to also state numerous times *in his own blog* that KDP publishing won't work for everyone. He is gaining a lot of his sales off back-lists, and using that to propel his new releases on Kindle-only into the stratosphere, which is the best model (imo) for a former DTB author who is now KDP. But that's the part no one ever remembers.

However, authors who don't have those backlists aren't going to experience that. Amanda is no anomaly--she said she LOVES marketing and does it all. the. time. She's got a d***ed good work ethic and it's paying off handsomely.

Just things to keep in mind when discussing money, instead of the real issue--effective marketing and how to stop thinking like an artisan and how to start thinking like a businessman.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Sometimes I worry that some of our threads blur the line between "Can my numbers help you?" and "Look how successful I am!"


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

So, you went and made the thread, eh?

My last one for May (from February sales) was $1,344.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> I've got a lava lamp on my writing desk and my favorite dessert is fruitcake. I'm too far gone down the tacky road to worry what people think about the internet boards I frequent.


Hey, I'm right there witcha. My Chuck Taylors have been tricked out in silver glitter for fifteen-years, and I have a bitchin' glitter lava lamp right now in storage. I also purchase those rock-hard fruitcakes on the ends of aisles at Christmas, cause I love 'em.

But that doesn't mean I want everyone who sees I've got some KDP books to automatically judge me as being a tacky and rude person because the other authors who frequent this place can't seem to stop talking about money. I don't want guilt by association.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

daveconifer said:


> Sometimes I worry that some of our threads blur the line between "Can my numbers help you?" and "Look how successful I am!"


EGGSactly. Sums it up nicely.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

daveconifer said:


> Sometimes I worry that some of our threads blur the line between "Can my numbers help you?" and "Look how successful I am!"


What he said.


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## Christine Merrill (Aug 19, 2010)

opuscroakus said:


> And I decided to leave it out of my OP but now it needs to be said: Other forums have already judged this place as amateur AND tacky because of the squillions of times they've seen threads flat out asking how much money you made last month.


Then I am suspicious of the other forums. Because while people may claim that it is tacky and amateurish, if you get a bunch of professional writers together, they talk about money. And follow things like Publisher's Lunch and Show me the Money to see what everyone else is making. If you are actually trying to make a living as a writer, trying to get any information at all on income is a very important thing.

While I might not go to my doctor and demand to know how much he pulled down in a year, I'd be much less hesitant to find a friend, or a friends of a friend and ask a few carefully worded questions about advances and royalties, if I was looking into signing a contract or publishing with a specific publisher.

It might not seem that asking people to be forthcoming about finances does any good here. But if enough people speak you can get an idea about the big trends, hot genres, successful marketing techniques, and the overall success rate of self publishing. Not everyone has numbers like Amanda Hocking, nor should they expect them. But prevailing wisdom is that _no one makes any money at all by doing it this way. _ And frankly, that has been pretty accurate until recently.

Without sales numbers and money talk, it is going to be hard to disprove the old sales model.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

This is actually a really fascinating discussion  .

I've been discussing something similar here in my corporate Day Job because strangely enough, even though Americans have a big stigma over discussing salary, Europeans discuss it all the time to make sure everyone is being paid fairly for the same position.

Here some corporations and tons of unions have a corporate spreadsheet where you can see what everyone's salary is for that same reason.  You can see that you're being treated fairly as well as know what to expect in different positions.  When you think about it that way from a corporate perspective, it seems odd that we're so against it.  Why are we? 

As for this thread, I wandered in as a newb because I think the more data I have, the more I learn  .  When someone's posted their earnings here, I take a hard look at their covers, their blurbs, their backlist, etc, and mentally note how they are running their business.

This helps immeasurably and lets me know if I'm on the right track or not.

And for the record, since I posted my short stories late April I've made $7.35.  Yes, I am indeed rich beyond words!


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

Christine Merrill said:


> Then I am suspicious of the other forums. Because while people may claim that it is tacky and amateurish, if you get a bunch of professional writers together, they talk about money. And follow things like Publisher's Lunch and Show me the Money to see what everyone else is making. If you are actually trying to make a living as a writer, trying to get any information at all on income is a very important thing.
> 
> Without sales numbers and money talk, it is going to be hard to disprove the old sales model.


This, exactly . We're all small business owners. It benefits us all to talk about how much we're making, and what we're doing that's working and helps us get there.

Knowledge is power!


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

And then I read the rest of the thread...

Well, all I can really say is that it seems people are getting into a tiff about post-extrapolation vs. pre-extrapolation. In other words, it's okay to post your pre-extrapolation sales numbers (in copies of books sold), but it's not okay to do the math for people and post the post-extrapolations. However, it seems to be okay to talk about Amanda's millions; I guess it's okay to do that if you're talking about someone else who isn't present in the conversation. Or maybe it's okay if it's first published by the media. I don't know, I was never very well versed in the ettiquette rules on talking about money.

If someone tells me they sold 100 copies of their $0.99 book, I know automatically that they made $35. So, if they told me they made $35 instead, it would be bad?

Konrath may have been a midlist when he was traditionally published, but he's an outlier author in the indie world since he made the move. And, yes, we understand that he had a sizable and popular backlist, and this fuels his new titles. For those of us who started indie, we enjoy more sales when we release more books. It's not the same as having a pre-existing backlist, but it is a parallel.

I had another thread where I posted my actual sales $ amount, and it spurred some conversations. Some of those conversations were from people considering whether or not to get into self-publishing. One friend from high school recently commented on Facebook that, since I posted how much I actually made, he was now going to sit down and put that story from his head on paper. My successes may have just created two new authors who didn't think it was worth it before to do the same thing I'm doing. That's amazing - to have inspired someone else to take that plunge. They may succeed and they may fail, but, after reading the things I've posted about my journey, they will at least now have tried.

It wouldn't have happened without my posting of real numbers and having these others see how much similar money would impact their own lives. I don't make huge sums of money each month, but I do make enough to make my life tremendously easier and pay some of those bills that, before, would still be piling up with no solution in sight. The money I make from my books puts hope into me that my life can be better, and others have felt that same feeling and hope that they can do the same.

I never promise anyone that they will automatically get a free check from writing. It's hard work. But, if someone has the talent, they can make some money in this business, and they may even be able to take that dream vacation or help pay that house note at the end of the month. That's why I do it, and I suspect there are plenty of others who do it for these very reasons.

I'm really surprised that such hostility came about from an optional poll on royalties that can otherwise be mathematically determined from observing # of copies sold vs. price per unit.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

I agree with everything you just posted, Brian--thank you for that!  

It was Joe (and Barry, mentioned earlier in jest) posting their sales figures that made me do the math and realize that indie publishing was more in line with my goal of making a living as a writer.

Numbers definitely do help people, especially those on the fence about whether or not to take a stab at this profession.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

RebeccaKnight said:


> This, exactly . We're all small business owners.


Not even close to being in the same business. I realise people are going to do what they want to no matter what anyone else says, but this analogy doesn't work because we're not all in the same "business." Some sell short-stories, others sell horror, some offer a large selection of only historical fiction, while there are those like me who sell historical fiction, a little horror at the ends of the aisles, and a whopping dose of comedic fiction and essays, in both large (novel) and small (short-story collections) packages.

Which is sort of my point. Too many variables as to be truly helpful.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm new around here and getting read to publish in July, but I see both sides of the argument. If someone asked me in person how much I make, I'd side step the question unless they were a good friend. However, when I saw the original post it didn't bother me. You can choose to participate or not. If I had sales numbers I probably wouldn't put it out there because once you put stuff on the internet it's there for good and I'm a little more private than that. 

I do think it's important for writers who do not have a business background to understand the implications of pricing and marketing and that's ultimately what these threads are doing. Also, with people like Joe Konrath and a number of other self-published bloggers giving us real numbers and royalty statements, I can see how someone would think nothing of asking this question. Authors are talking about it all over the internet.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> Not even close to being in the same business. I realise people are going to do what they want to no matter what anyone else says, but this analogy doesn't work because we're not all in the same "business." Some sell short-stories, others sell horror, some offer a large selection of only historical fiction, while there are those like me who sell historical fiction, a little horror at the ends of the aisles, and a whopping dose of comedic fiction and essays, in both large (novel) and small (short-story collections) packages.
> 
> Which is sort of my point. Too many variables as to be truly helpful.


As for the variable factor, I think that's why gathering info is nice. As Nell so eloquently put it, it helps you put the info in a pile and look for what's relevant to your "small business" model.

We're not all moving the same product, but a lot of us *are* and we can learn from one another. I'd love to see how fantasy novelists are doing, or short story writers. If we all talk about it, I get the opportunity to learn .

I'm just saying, don't dismiss people who think they'd benefit from this info as rude or giving this forum a bad name. I feel that's an overreaction.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Nell Gavin said:


> I know what gauche means. (Did you know that we're mostly all writers here?) But thank you so much. And I'm also a dinosaur. However, I like to think of myself as still forming.
> 
> I've been doing this for 10 years, and I've been studying every aspect of categorization, ranking, placement - you name it. I find it informative and useful, to learn what other people are doing, in addition to what I'm doing. I don't mind informing them and being useful to them in return.
> 
> ...


What Nell said.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Guys,

I don't see the problem here.

If you don't want to particpate, don't. If you find it gauche, look away.

At any conference, business people will gather and talk shop. Some will reveal all their numbers, some won't. Those that enjoy doing so will find their own little corner to discuss it until they get bored.

Nobody is being forced to reveal anything, and it's hardly the kind of thread that will discourage anyone, several differing amounts have been revealed.

I would reveal mine, but I haven't got one yet. I find this kind of information useful. I understand it's not to everyone's taste, but there are plenty of threads that are not to mine. I don't read them.

Dave


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## dwschlueter (May 10, 2011)

I am new here so I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers but here is my take on things.  At my day job I don't discuss what I earn because it is against the rules and it could get me fired.  Face to face it depends on who I am talking to.  If my best friend that I know makes far less than I do asks what I make I will do my best to gracefully side step the question.  If an acquaintance asks I would be more likely to tell them especially if they are in my field.  I like to know what other software engineers make as it helps me determine how successful I am in my career.  If a good friend that makes about the same asks I will tell them because we may share some of the same financial issues.

When I started writing I did it as a way to make money.  It certainly wasn't for fame because I didn't even use my own name.  I would have killed for more info in the beginning as far as what I could expect to earn.  Knowing how much someone earns is helpful in assessing whether or not to listen to that person when they speak about their profession.  Success in your profession in my opinion, and I can't overstate enough that it is ONLY my opinion can only be measured by the money you earn relative to others in your profession.  That is not to say that you have to be Hocking to be considered successful but if you sell 100 dollars worth of books a month you are not a successful author.  Success has nothing to do with how good you are mind you.  There are incredible writers that are starving and there are those that are mediocre at best that are millionaires.

Just my 99 cents.

Oh forgot to throw in my last combined checks were about $700.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> And then I read the rest of the thread...
> 
> Well, all I can really say is that it seems people are getting into a tiff about post-extrapolation vs. pre-extrapolation. In other words, it's okay to post your pre-extrapolation sales numbers (in copies of books sold), but it's not okay to do the math for people and post the post-extrapolations. However, it seems to be okay to talk about Amanda's millions;


I don't agree with posting sales figures, either. AGAIN, without the specific variables, it gives it no context and turns into nothing more than bragging.

And I never said anything about Amanda's money, so don't put words in my mouth.



> If someone tells me they sold 100 copies of their $0.99 book, I know automatically that they made $35. So, if they told me they made $35 instead, it would be bad?


CONTEXT!

If someone answered this question within a discussion about specific marketing techniques for ninety-nine cent books in genre X, then yes--by all means, share. On that account we are totally in agreement.

But look back on every single thread ever posted to this board that asks for your sales figures: nine times out of ten they won't include genre comparisons, places you've marketed or price, quality and number of your reviews and places posted, and THESE VARIABLES are not mutually exclusive with sales numbers for any working business model. If you were to sit down and do an analysis of a small deli to see if it's viable enough for you to invest, you'd better believe there are going to be other variables there than just how much the former owner grossed last quarter. There's going to be detailed breakdowns of what was sold, when its peak selling months were and at what price, what demographic shops there, current tax brackets, employee salaries, number of employees and the current market price of beef.

NOW do you see the difference?? The OP (and every other one on this board) crudely asks for your bottom line, trying to convince us that it's only in the interest of market analysis and science, to which I say bull. Without those other very necessary variables, it's just another "look at me!" thread, as Dave says.

I'm a doctoral candidate in Astrophysics and Applied Mathematics, but as a person trying to learn this marketing game, since that's never been my forté, marketing discussions are of great interest to me. But I learn absolutely NOTHING from conversations like this one, with two missing factors: Context and variables. Without those, I can't do a successful or critical market analysis and then determine how to adjust my business model accordingly.



> I had another thread where I posted my actual sales $ amount, and it spurred some conversations. Some of those conversations were from people considering whether or not to get into self-publishing. One friend from high school recently commented on Facebook that, since I posted how much I actually made, he was now going to sit down and put that story from his head on paper. My successes may have just created two new authors who didn't think it was worth it before to do the same thing I'm doing. That's amazing - to have inspired someone else to take that plunge. They may succeed and they may fail, but, after reading the things I've posted about my journey, they will at least now have tried.


Er, well, I *guess* this is good, but did you let him know how many hours each day you work at marketing? Places you market? HOW you market? Genres in which you write? Length of books? These are factors even you can't ignore directly affect your bottom lines in sales.

And I'm happy for your success--truly. I just want authors to wake up and realise this isn't just about bottom lines or how much a person cleared last month. It's about so much more.


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## Sharlow (Dec 20, 2009)

JeanneM said:


> Sharlow, your avatar is mesmerizing. But I'm always afraid if I stare at it too long, he might look up at me. Yikes!


Thanks! you know now that you mention it... Yikes!


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

RebeccaKnight said:


> As for the variable factor, I think that's why gathering info is nice. As Nell so eloquently put it, it helps you put the info in a pile and look for what's relevant to your "small business" model.


Then you missed my point in being upset about this OP, because it did NOT ask for those other variables, which renders it just another "let's compare the sizes of our winkies" threads and those are useless. I think you and I agree more than we realise on what constitutes a good model analysis.



> I'm just saying, don't dismiss people who think they'd benefit from this info as rude or giving this forum a bad name. I feel that's an overreaction.


It can't be an overreaction when *I* didn't do anything but relay the information. It wasn't my reaction I was talking about on other forums.

And yes, I still think it rude for its own sake. Again, read what I said about variables. Because without those other variables, newbies are only going to learn how to compare themselves to others and in a very inaccurate light.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> Then you missed my point in being upset about this OP, because it did NOT ask for those other variables, which renders it just another "let's compare the sizes of our winkies" threads and those are useless. I think you and I agree more than we realise on what constitutes a good model analysis.


Fair enough .

I hope folks will post genre, how many books they have currently out, etc along w/ their sales. I think that would be extra helpful for us newbies, data-wise.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

BrianKittrell said:


> If someone tells me they sold 100 copies of their $0.99 book, I know automatically that they made $35.


So, I am assuming then that most people who post numbers here make most of their sales through Amazon Kindle? For me Amazon Kindle has only provided decent sales in the last four months. My largest royalty comes from Lightning Source followed by Ravelry and then the sales that come directly through my various web sites. I don't count Smashwords because so far they have not amounted to much.

If your primary sales outlet is Kindle then, yes, it isn't hard to figure out what you make but otherwise you have to tally it up before posting. Too much emphasis in the wrong place, in my opinion. But that's just me.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I see no harm in sharing sales numbers or income.  If I were trying to decide on taking a traditional book deal for $5,000, or self-publish on the Kindle, I would want to know the odds of making money at it.  If I came here and read a thread where everyone were talking about how much they've made, I would be able to see that vampire YA romances were earning authors more than poem collections.  I would also see that some authors are earning a living and others are earning a nice supplemental income, but most are earning a few bucks each month.  

This is helpful to me.  And yes, price matters.  Genre matters.  Most authors have book links in their sig lines, so that's easy to figure out.  And if you have questions about marketing, ask those people who you see are succeeding, and who are selling the same genre as you.

I don't find it crass or rude to ask, and those who do are welcome to ignore this thread.  My last payment (everything combined) was just over $10,000.  Not saying that to brag.  Everyone can easily figure that out by the number of books I sold in Feb.  But I'm saying it to let everyone know I don't see anything wrong with sharing numbers.

If I were trying to decide whether to go to law school or join the circus, I would do research and see what lawyers earned as opposed to circus performers.  That information is readily available.  Just saying...

Vicki


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Victorine said:


> If I were trying to decide whether to go to law school or join the circus, I would do research and see what lawyers earned as opposed to circus performers. That information is readily available.


Right, but you are talking about research prior to an undertaking. But making periodic I'll-show-you mine-if-you'll-show-me-yours smacks a bit of competition that is not necessarily healthy. Of course you don't have any problem with sharing, why would you? However, if someone has chosen to pursue their dream of writing in a genre that has a significantly smaller target market, it could easily prove intimidating. Look at the discussions here about writing erotica. When you look at the potential sales for erotica, but you have just spent several years writing a meticulously-crafted critique of Shakespeare's tragedies, a call to compare numbers may well look like an indictment of your skills.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> I don't agree with posting sales figures, either. AGAIN, without the specific variables, it gives it no context and turns into nothing more than bragging.
> 
> And I never said anything about Amanda's money, so don't put words in my mouth.


I'm sorry, I was referring to the lack of such stringent activism in the Amanda Hocking Made Millions threads. LOL



> CONTEXT!
> 
> If someone answered this question within a discussion about specific marketing techniques for ninety-nine cent books in genre X, then yes--by all means, share. On that account we are totally in agreement.
> 
> But look back on every single thread ever posted to this board that asks for your sales figures: nine times out of ten they won't include genre comparisons, places you've marketed or price, quality and number of your reviews and places posted, and THESE VARIABLES are mutually exclusive with sales numbers for any working business model. If you were to sit down and do an analysis of a small deli to see if it's viable enough for you to invest, you'd better believe there are going to be other variables there than just how much the former owner grossed last quarter. There's going to be detailed breakdowns of what was sold, when its peak selling months were and at what price, what demographic shops there, current tax brackets, employee salaries, number of employees and the current market price of beef.


If I were to sit down and do a business analysis of a small deli, I would say the primary concerns would be location, overhead of operation, and profitability (as a result of location, local area wealth, occassion for residents to frequent a deli, and so forth). Fortunately, I'm not selling deli meats.

I'm selling books and ebooks. The overhead for ebooks is $0 per month. The overhead for print publications under my model are $105.00 per title setup, and then $1 per month for distribution.

I don't have to worry about location since I sell exclusively online. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Smashwords, and others give me free "rent" - virtual shelf space.

I have no employees. I create my books from thin air, so no supplies necessary.

When an author dies or sells his rights, they actually do calculations based upon what the books did sell at before he stopped owning them. Past performance with some entropic formula are applied when dividing assets from a deceased author based on value or helping a publisher determine the salability of the title.



> NOW do you see the difference?? The OP (and every other one on this board) crudely asks for your bottom line, trying to convince us that it's only in the interest of market analysis and science, to which I say bull. Without those other very necessary variables, it's just another "look at me!" thread, as Dave says.


Not exactly, no. Running a deli is totally different from an indie writer writing and selling books and ebooks. I thought you just said that even writers were in completely different businesses.



> I'm a doctoral candidate in Astrophysics and Applied Mathematics, but as a person trying to learn this marketing game, since that's never been my forté, marketing discussions are of great interest to me. But I learn absolutely NOTHING from conversations like this one, with two missing factors: Context and variables. Without those, I can't do a successful or critical market analysis and then determine how to adjust my business model accordingly.


I think you're missing the point of the thread. The point of the thread is to share experiences that money can be made by selling books, and that people are making more than a few cents a month. Some are making decent money.

And I certainly congratulate you on your chosen field of study. Neither are easy.



> Er, well, I *guess* this is good, but did you let him know how many hours each day you work at marketing? Places you market? HOW you market? Genres in which you write? Length of books? These are factors even you can't ignore directly affect your bottom lines in sales.


Everyone can see that I've written a horror series for my first adventure into self-pub. I work a full time job, so the only marketing I do is posting to KindleBoards, answering emails, filling out email questionairres for interviews, and just generally hanging out in the community. I used to take out paid advertisements, but I decided to stop wasting my money. The paid advertising and reviews helped get the sales rolling, and they've maintained about the same level no matter what I change or do now.

When asked, my best advice for promotion and advertising yourself is to write the next book. Write in a series if you can. Do publicity stuff when you can, and try to do more publicity stuff (interviews, reviews, hanging out in the community) than anything that costs you money. If you can get the ball rolling, even slowly, it will usually keep rolling with a little push every once in a while. Don't kill yourself on publicizing, advertising, and marketing because the rewards are often miniscule. Again, the best way to promote yourself is through expanding your library. I tell people this without reservation.

I believe Joe Konrath says the same thing about promotion. He does rather little of it, especially lately, and he's doing quite well.



> And I'm happy for your success--truly. I just want authors to wake up and realise this isn't just about bottom lines or how much a person cleared last month. It's about so much more.


Thanks. It IS about more than a dollar sign, but I'm not going to say the dollar sign is part of the motivation. Everyone has their own reasons, but mine are so that I can share my stories with the world, I can perform rather technical, demanding, and challenging work like designing book covers and formatting books (I enjoy that sort of thing), and I can make more money for the household to provide a better life for my wife, my daughter, and myself.

I would agree that many of the threads about sales numbers, dollar figures, and the like are much like bragging or seeking attention. It's not always the case, though. I share my sales numbers and dollar figures, and I've always done so, when asked. It's usually a question posed by new authors/self-pubs who are trying to figure out if they're getting into something worthwhile. I answer honestly because I know how difficult it is to glean such information (I've been there). That's why I find Konrath's blog interesting, and I think that's why Konrath's blog is so popular - it gained a large number of visitors because he shared real dollar figures of what he was making. Success begets success.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Victorine said:


> I see no harm in sharing sales numbers or income. If I were trying to decide on taking a traditional book deal for $5,000, or self-publish on the Kindle, I would want to know the odds of making money at it. If I came here and read a thread where everyone were talking about how much they've made, I would be able to see that vampire YA romances were earning authors more than poem collections. I would also see that some authors are earning a living and others are earning a nice supplemental income, but most are earning a few bucks each month.
> 
> This is helpful to me. And yes, price matters. Genre matters. Most authors have book links in their sig lines, so that's easy to figure out. And if you have questions about marketing, ask those people who you see are succeeding, and who are selling the same genre as you.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Vicki. Always an eloquent answer as expected.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Since I've already opened my yap, I want to say that I have absolutely no problem with sharing information including sales counts, royalties, net profits, milestones or anything else.  We're all better off when Dalglish, Victorine and many others post their numbers.  I guess for me it depends on the tone or context and has nothing to do with privacy or manners...

edit: I will add Michael Wallace to my list of examples above.


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## Debbiek (Aug 7, 2010)

I have no problems positing it when it is to encourage people.
I don't advertise or tell any one what books I have Under several pen names because I am a teacher and church choir director.
B&N and Amazon

23 erotica 2.99
1 teen .99
3 self help 2.99
1 inspirational .99

August- nothing
sept-38.00
oct-275.
nov-1,000
dec- 9,500
Jan 8,800
feb-6,500
mar-6,600
april-7,700


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## Charliegirl (Apr 23, 2011)

Somebody probably mentioned this already and I only read the first few post in this thread, but how long a person has been writing makes a huge difference.

There's no way you can expect to be making the same amount of money your first three months as someone who's been at it for years. I'll be thrilled if I make 15 bucks my first check (that's how broke I am   )

I'd like to know how much someone who's been at it for 2+ years is making. If I keep this up in two years I expect to be making a decent income. Am hoping those vets on here can confirm that that is possible.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I'll tell you one thing.

If people like Joe Konrath hadn't shared sales numbers and dollar amounts I would never have considered self-publishing.

All I needed to know was that several people both with and without trade publishing histories were selling lots and lots of books and selling lot of money in lots of different genres.

But what REALLY made me take the leap, was the people who weren't all over the Top 100, but were quietly building up a readership book by book, and were now either living off it, or it was a healthy bonus to their regular income.

If THOSE people hadn't share their figures, I wouldn't have finally made the leap.

I did last week. It's one of the best decisions I ever made.

Dave


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

drmamalove said:


> I don't advertise or tell any one what books I have Under several pen names because I am a teacher and church choir director.


That's so cool. I guess I'm a


Spoiler



sneaky bastard


 and appreciate other


Spoiler



sneaky bastard


s. Are you ever going to spill the beans after you're "safe?" Keep up the good work...


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Screw it. I don't mind sharing, and honestly, if you guys think I'm doing it to brag...you're partly right. I'm damn proud of my sales, my income, and what I've accomplished. I'm not embarrassed, nor ashamed of it. And if you really don't want to read what other people are making...wtf are you doing reading this thread? And I still think this information can be very useful, for at the least, it can help dispel the notion that self-publishing is a fool's game where no one makes a dime.

Last month was $18,000.
This month will clear $32,000.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Screw it. I don't mind sharing, and honestly, if you guys think I'm doing it to brag...you're partly right. I'm d*mn proud of my sales, my income, and what I've accomplished. I'm not embarrassed, nor ashamed of it. And if you really don't want to read what other people are making...wtf are you doing reading this thread? And I still think this information can be very useful, for at the least, it can help dispel the notion that self-publishing is a fool's game where no one makes a dime.
> 
> Last month was $18,000.
> This month will clear $32,000.


Wow.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Screw it. I don't mind sharing, and honestly, if you guys think I'm doing it to brag...you're partly right. I'm d*mn proud of my sales, my income, and what I've accomplished. I'm not embarrassed, nor ashamed of it. And if you really don't want to read what other people are making...wtf are you doing reading this thread? And I still think this information can be very useful, for at the least, it can help dispel the notion that self-publishing is a fool's game where no one makes a dime.
> 
> Last month was $18,000.
> This month will clear $32,000.


Brashly said, sir.  I would agree that I'm certainly not embarrassed by my successes, either. And your last sentence rings true - this is no longer just a fool's game where people don't make money. Regular people are making real money doing something they love.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

I agree with most of the posters here. I came to KB in early March. People were open and honest about what they were selling and for how much, and I learned pretty quickly who was selling what in my genre. And you know what? I was overjoyed. Before I came to KB, I had no idea that ebooks could sell, and sell well. And sell REALLY well.

I was energized. I learned. I watched the people who were doing well. A lot of those people are thriller and suspense writers. I saw this wonderful thread where people posted the numbers of books they sold from the first month to the most recent. It went like this:

3
15
12
78
132
586
233
1701
12,345

Good God! Look at the information in that simple set of numbers. And dozens of people were putting up numbers like that. And I thought, "Great. Something to run at!" Because make no mistake, after years of writing and being poorly or sporadically paid, I wanted to make up for all those years of developing my craft. I wanted to be paid a decent wage. And the only way I was going to _get_ that decent wage was to do it myself! I have bills to pay, I have pets to feed, I have a life to live, and so I'll be doggoned if I think someone telling me what they've earned by dint of hard work is an insult to me. It's information. We need information. Seeing the numbers above, I planned to have numbers just like them. If I had not come to Kindle Boards, I'd probably still be selling a handful of books and hoping against hope for a print book deal.

It seems to me that the people who want to get somewhere work hard and they don't miss a trick. They learn what they can where they can. They don't complain or look at others with sidelong glances and give them their character. They take what's kindly given and they give back. A lot of this is attitude. Attitude to buckle down and write the best book you can and then try harder. To appreciate the gifts offered by people who are, yes, doing better than you are.

My last month's royalty (February)? $87 and change.

Maggy


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## sandynight (Sep 26, 2010)

$519.00 
I bought a self-propelled lawnmower


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## Charliegirl (Apr 23, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Screw it. I don't mind sharing, and honestly, if you guys think I'm doing it to brag...you're partly right. I'm d*mn proud of my sales, my income, and what I've accomplished. I'm not embarrassed, nor ashamed of it. And if you really don't want to read what other people are making...wtf are you doing reading this thread? And I still think this information can be very useful, for at the least, it can help dispel the notion that self-publishing is a fool's game where no one makes a dime.
> 
> Last month was $18,000.
> This month will clear $32,000.


Nice $_$!

How long have you been self publishing? And HOW...seriously HOOOW did you do that?


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

sandynight said:


> I bought a self-propelled lawnmower


That's interesting. I bought a self-propelled vacuum. There was just something about this ad that sucked me in.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Charliegirl said:


> Nice $_$!
> 
> How long have you been self publishing? And HOW...seriously HOOOW did you do that?


He's a strong, versatile writer and he's got a great sense for the business end of it. But I'll let him answer for himself...

[Now he doesn't have to brag, I did it for him...]


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Plus, he's making more than Snooki! Don't forget that.


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## Charliegirl (Apr 23, 2011)

sandynight said:


> $519.00
> I bought a self-propelled lawnmower


LOL


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

dgaughran said:


> I'll tell you one thing.
> 
> If people like Joe Konrath hadn't shared sales numbers and dollar amounts I would never have considered self-publishing.
> 
> ...


Completely, completely agree with this.

Knowledge is power. Finding out that self-publishing is actually viable has encouraged me to branch out and begin self-publishing in new genres under a new pseudonym, while continuing my traditionally published career.

I honestly don't understand why people feel the need to bust into a thread like this, scold everyone for asking and/or answering a "stupid question", then keep coming back to insist that the information being shared is worthless. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you think the information is useless and without context, great. Nobody is forcing you to read it, think about it, or use it. Some people do find this type of discussion useful, not because they think that someone else's body of work, marketing techniques, and trajectory are going to parallel their own exactly, but because the more data you gather, the more meaningful the information becomes.

The world would be a much nicer place if more people adopted an attitude of "live and let live".


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## Charliegirl (Apr 23, 2011)

J. Carson Black said:


> Plus, he's making more than Snooki! Don't forget that.


Oh Really? Well I bet he can't do a fierce guidette pompadour


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## sandynight (Sep 26, 2010)

foreverjuly said:


> That's interesting. I bought a self-propelled vacuum. There was just something about this ad that sucked me in.


O! O! I want one of those. I need to get up off my lazy ass and write another book


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Me, too.


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## Daniel Pyle (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm also on the "this is helpful information, and I don't mind sharing it" side of the fence. My last payment from Amazon US was for $272.45. The next one should be for a little over $800. and I'm hoping this month's might flirt with the big one-kay. *crosses fingers*

If there hadn't been data about indie publishing out there when I started, I might never have gone indie in the first place, and that would have been the biggest mistake of my life. (Except maybe for the fish taco incident.)


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## Daniel Pyle (Aug 13, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Only on KB can a discussion of royalties morph into a group ogle of self-propelled vacuums...


Here or in a mental institution.


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## Guest (May 11, 2011)

sandynight said:


> O! O! I want one of those. I need to get up off my lazy ass and write another book


You'll be surprised to know that you can't actually buy the girl. Apparently you just have to give her stuffed animals and ramen, and then she does all the cleaning you need. A great self-propelled vacuum!


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

I just want to thank people for sharing numbers. If none of you did this, the conversation would still be, "But that's just Joe Konrath making money, and he's a special bear."

I don't think anyone intelligent ever looks at someone else's numbers and says, "Yup, that's me--I'm the next Amanda Hocking." Or "I'm the next David Dalglish." Or anything like that.

I look at the range. I don't need people to tell me what books are comparable to mine. I can look at the books in someone's signature and click the links just fine on my own. And everyone here can do exactly what the major publishing houses do--which is look at books that are comparable. Of course someone will assume they'll be the next Victorine--but you can't cure overoptimism with less information.

Since my publisher won't tell me how many e-copies my book sells until I get my royalty statement 10 months after release, I have no idea on sales #s--but because you guys share your numbers, I can make a pretty decent guess (at least to within a factor of 2 or 3). I know what numbers to expect, roughly, and I know the point when I'm reaching for the phone to find someone to perform an audit. Without your sharing numbers, I would have no freaking clue. None.

I don't care what anyone's motivation has been to post their numbers, but as a traditionally published author, your sharing of information has been tremendously valuable. I've told other traditionally published authors to check out this board because of it.

Thank you.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Daniel Pyle said:


> If there hadn't been data about indie publishing out there when I started, I might never have gone indie in the first place, and that would have been the biggest mistake of my life. (Except maybe for the fish taco incident.)


Mmmmmm Fish Tacos.

Let me guess. You tried to eat too many?

Oh wait, I got it: a hungry fisherman mistook you for a fish taco after a hard day's work.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

CONGRATS to you guys who posted your numbers!  

I'm getting so inspired reading this thread, which is honestly exactly what I wanted from it.  I wanted to bask in the glow of what's possible, while also scoping out cover art.  Ha!

Thank you to everyone participating, and good luck to every newbie like me!


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Screw it. I don't mind sharing, and honestly, if you guys think I'm doing it to brag...you're partly right. I'm d*mn proud of my sales, my income, and what I've accomplished. I'm not embarrassed, nor ashamed of it. And if you really don't want to read what other people are making...wtf are you doing reading this thread? And I still think this information can be very useful, for at the least, it can help dispel the notion that self-publishing is a fool's game where no one makes a dime.
> 
> Last month was $18,000.
> This month will clear $32,000.


Wow. At this rate you'll be able to buy that small Missouri town you live in!


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## sandynight (Sep 26, 2010)

foreverjuly said:


> You'll be surprised to know that you can't actually buy the girl. Apparently you just have to give her stuffed animals and ramen, and then she does all the cleaning you need. A great self-propelled vacuum!


LOL! Well, now that you mention it I could use a housekeeper and a cook. And then maybe I could get another book written.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

flanneryohello said:


> I honestly don't understand why people feel the need to bust into a thread like this, scold everyone for asking and/or answering a "stupid question", then keep coming back to insist that the information being shared is worthless. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you think the information is useless and without context, great. Nobody is forcing you to read it, think about it, or use it. Some people do find this type of discussion useful, not because they think that someone else's body of work, marketing techniques, and trajectory are going to parallel their own exactly, but because the more data you gather, the more meaningful the information becomes.


Excuse me, but I didn't "bust in" anywhere. I was the second person to post. I've held this view for quite some time. This was the first thread I happened to see after I'd already decided to say something the next time I saw it again.

And when you make statements like "the more DATA you gather..." then you're agreeing with exactly what I've been talking about...context.

And again, the OP was trying to play this off as scientific research, when I've clearly demonstrated that isn't possible or even accurate without the other information at work.

And for you to chastise me is just as ridiculous as you thinking I am in my continuing to share what SEVERAL others have also stated as being their opinion.



> The world would be a much nicer place if more people adopted an attitude of "live and let live".


Oh, definitely. For without the live and let live attitude, there'd be no one learning anything new--there'd be no vigorous discussion of ideas. If you want a group of "yes men," then I suggest you go elsewhere. The last time I checked, the Constitution allows me to state exactly what I think. It might not be popular, or even in the majority, but at least others are coming forward and saying how fed-up they are with the same type of threads happening over and over and over and over again. Again, it's context.

Let me boil it down for anyone with comprehension issues: If you're bragging, then don't pass it off as scientific. If you want to compare winkies, then don't pass it off as research. Do as David did and call it what it is, ffs. Don't give it some air of respectable pretense.


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## jessepet (Apr 4, 2011)

I have to say that coming from a traditional publishing place (I published nearly 20 books with Avon and Orbit) sales numbers are protected like it's going out of style. And if authors talk about money in any kind of public way, the publishers get nervous and frankly, pissed. They know knowledge is power and if the authors get too much power (like we're starting to get with indie) it hurts them.

Last year I made about 1100 from one set of short novellas, SIN, which I published because I got the rights back and found out someone was trying to sell a paperback of one of the novellas for over $400. Which I thought was ridiculous. This was with no promo except to say to my newsletter list of 2500 and my Facebook group of about 2500 "hey, these books are available again, don't buy them for $400."

Then I decided to make a go at indie beyond just letting my backlist titles go up. I wrote a front list long novella, ROGUE FOR A NIGHT and last month sold what will equal about 1400 in sales between it, the SIN collection, a book on the writing industry and the first few days of sales on my May release SEVEN NIGHTS which was a book I loved but hadn't sold before my traditional career took off.

Next month I intend to release another backlist book I have rights to. In August, I'll release a zombie short story collection (front list) that is tied to my traditional career under my Jesse Petersen name, which is zombie comedy. In September another historical romance (front list) under my Jenna Petersen historical romance name. 

It's all about building, whether you were published before or not. And I get a lot from all the talk around here because this is all new to all of us and I like that we can be honest and open and talk about promotion and yes, even sales. Others may disagree, but having been on both sides of the fence, I'd rather share than hide and keep quiet.


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## Sharlow (Dec 20, 2009)

Emma Midnight said:


> Wow. At this rate you'll be able to buy that small Missouri town you live in!


How much do those towns go for these day's?


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## Debbiek (Aug 7, 2010)

I only started writing in August before that I wrote books but never did anything with them.


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## Sharlow (Dec 20, 2009)

opuscroakus said:


> And again, the OP was trying to play this off as scientific research, when I've clearly demonstrated that isn't possible or even accurate without the other information at work.


Opus I'm not quite sure why you insist on coming here and riling people up. I have refrained from saying anything in response to your posts, as since you obviously don't like these kind of threads, I figured you would state your opinion and be done with it. Instead you keep coming back and making, I'm assuming by accident, slanderous statements about what my post was about. Forgive me if I'm taking your posts wrong, but the the quote above is directed at me. There are several others as well, but I'll just let it pass.

You asked earlier if I was new to the boards. I'm not, in fact I started the first thread on sharing sales numbers back in January 2010. I did that because after a disappointing December 09 for my first month, and a lack luster start to January of that year I wondered if I had made a mistake self publishing. I needed answers as to if I just sucked and the readers had spoken. But there was no where to turn to see what the average author was selling starting out, or when to expect an up turn in sales. So the "how many did you sell" thread was born.

So I may be to blame for all those future sales threads that others made later on. I found it helpful and apparently a lot of others did to. I certainly didn't start it to brag about my 6 sales.

You also said all the internet thinks this board is filled with amateurs and basically were a laughing stock. Let them. People will think what they will think, but it wasn't their boards that Konrath came to looking for sales figures of other Indy writers. Those boards most likely don't have the number of upcoming stars that this one has, or for that matter those that would be considered a success already. Yes we have new people here, it's what we do. we help each other to grow and blossom into good authors, and along the way we have picked up several traditionally published authors that have decided to join us on this merry little ride. This is a great place to be, and I'm sure we all welcome you to it. i love these boards, because there is no where like it on the internet.

So please everyone, this is suppose to be a helpful thread. Many people have asked why there isn't a thread like this, and I've waited for Robyn or someone to set it up. Perhaps my original post was awkward. I wrote it and erased it and rewrote it over and over, and then just finally decided on making it simple. If you would like to share your numbers to inspire all of us, then please. Most normal people think that writing is going to make you a millionaire. I know before I became a writer I did to. But I've learned otherwise and I wouldn't have if another author hadn't shared what she made.

http://www.genreality.net/the-reality-of-a-times-bestseller

Read the article and it's follow up if you haven't. Very informative. Anyways I've rambled enough, and I hope people aren't thinking I'm bragging with my small amount of income. If I were David...I just might.


----------



## D Girard Watson (Apr 4, 2011)

Sharlow, that was incredibly eloquent.


----------



## Yusagi (Jan 21, 2010)

opuscroakus said:


> And again, the OP was trying to play this off as scientific research, when I've clearly demonstrated that isn't possible or even accurate without the other information at work.


...I'm pretty sure that the other people in this thread clearly demonstrated that it _is_ possible, so I'm not sure where you're coming from there.



opuscroakus said:


> And for you to chastise me is just as ridiculous as you thinking I am in my continuing to share what SEVERAL others have also stated as being their opinion.


I don't think that's true, either since...this thread is for people who _want_ to share their statistics. To jump in and attack the OP/Thread/Sharing Posts, _that_ is unreasonable. To chastise the person for doing that because this was not meant to be a debate thread is not.



opuscroakus said:


> Let me boil it down for anyone with comprehension issues: If you're bragging, then don't pass it off as scientific. If you want to compare winkies, then don't pass it off as research. Do as David did and call it what it is, ffs. Don't give it some air of respectable pretense.


Except it's _not_ bragging. Most of it is curiosity and the free sharing of information between people, because you don't ask someone to share information if you're not willing to share it yourself. I don't know why you're defensive, and I'm not going to try to guess, but if you're going to be hostile and defensive then don't pass it off as the united voice of the internet. Don't give it some air of being the long-suffering reasonable person amongst a sea of madness. It's okay not to want to share your sales or know others' sales, and it's even okay to be defensive about it. It's not okay to be demeaning toward everyone who _does_ share it.

--

Also~ My last royalty check was $13.41, which is pretty good for one book and almost nil advertising, I'd like to think.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Charliegirl said:


> Nice $_$!
> 
> How long have you been self publishing? And HOW...seriously HOOOW did you do that?


Been self-publishing for about a year and a half (first book uploaded was in January of '10). And I just wrote a ton of books (I have like..ten for sale, I think?) that for some reason people enjoy. Oh, and my covers are good. That helps.

And Opus...seriously? You've "proven" that this info isn't useful? How about someone who wanders into this thread wondering "I wonder what the average income for someone self-publishing is"? Because that is EXACTLY what I did a long while back, and it was Sharlow's thread way back when, about his six sales, that I first saw how difficult it was going to be. THAT thread helped. This thread may also help someone. They may see people making $15 and $15,000. Maybe they'll see you can do very well. Maybe they can see it won't be a guaranteed money-maker from the people who aren't.

And seriously, there is plenty you can learn from this besides that. Here's a shocking thought: you can click on my books. You can check my prices. You can read my product descriptions. You can see what genres I write in. Oh my god!! It's all right there, in my signature and on Amazon! We are all selling books. Comparing me to someone else isn't comparing selling oranges to selling radios. It's like people selling different types of cars, vans, and SUVs. Sure, some stuff isn't going to be compatible, but some stuff IS compatible across the various genres and styles, just like everyone who goes shopping for a vehicle expects the brakes to work, regardless of whether it is a truck or a mustang. Disregarding it is just stupid, and pretending that every single indie author is some special snowflake with nothing in common to any other indie author is, again, stupid. I'd hope anyone looking at my income would stop, look at my books, and try to figure out what I did right (and how to avoid what I've done wrong, which trust me, is out there too).


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## Debbiek (Aug 7, 2010)

Yes, it was eloquent! I don't usually post much but, I felt you were being treated badly and really don't have a problem posting what I make .  I just need to be careful that no one really finds out what I write.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Sharlow, you have done all of us a great service. Except for the carpers.  They will do themselves a service in their own way, and that is fine with me.  May God Bless.  But for the rest of us - knowledge is power.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Wow! I had to stop reading this thread. Sharlow, I think that you hit a nerve. 

It is my goal to make a living as a writer. I would like to know how easy it is to achieve that. I would like to know what price point is necessary to achieve it. I don't even understand the thinking of authors that just want people to read their work so badly that they are willing to give it away for free. I offer a product that requires hours upon hours of work and I am good at it. This being the case I would like to be compensated for it. To each their own; and this is me. 

And finally if you don't want to know how much I made, then look away. But I would like to know what others are making so that I can have a gauge as to what I can do to achieve financial success past "just write a good book". I may be my sales number, but I am absolutely not my book royalties.

My February check from Kindle was for $65.17


Title.............Book Price

Everybody E $5.99
Everybody E for girls $5.99
Everybody HTTSIDMYG $6.99
Happiness TTAOPE $9.99


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Been self-publishing for about a year and a half (first book uploaded was in January of '10). And I just wrote a ton of books (I have like..ten for sale, I think?) that for some reason people enjoy. Oh, and my covers are good. That helps.
> 
> And Opus...seriously? You've "proven" that this info isn't useful? How about someone who wanders into this thread wondering "I wonder what the average income for someone self-publishing is"? Because that is EXACTLY what I did a long while back, and it was Sharlow's thread way back when, about his six sales, that I first saw how difficult it was going to be. THAT thread helped. This thread may also help someone. They may see people making $15 and $15,000. Maybe they'll see you can do very well. Maybe they can see it won't be a guaranteed money-maker from the people who aren't.
> 
> And seriously, there is plenty you can learn from this besides that. Here's a shocking thought: you can click on my books. You can check my prices. You can read my product descriptions. You can see what genres I write in. Oh my god!! It's all right there, in my signature and on Amazon! We are all selling books. Comparing me to someone else isn't comparing selling oranges to selling radios. It's like people selling different types of cars, vans, and SUVs. Sure, some stuff isn't going to be compatible, but some stuff IS compatible across the various genres and styles, just like everyone who goes shopping for a vehicle expects the brakes to work, regardless of whether it is a truck or a mustang. Disregarding it is just stupid, and pretending that every single indie author is some special snowflake with nothing in common to any other indie author is, again, stupid. I'd hope anyone looking at my income would stop, look at my books, and try to figure out what I did right (and how to avoid what I've done wrong, which trust me, is out there too).


you betcha! I'm one of those someones who saw you and realized what was possible. And I thank you from the bottom of my heart.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> But comparing dollar amounts doesn't really prove much. I make $13 profit on one of my books which means I make $130 when I sell ten of them. Someone who sells their book for .99 has to sell 390 of them to make the same profit. Who is more successful -- the writer who sells 10 books or 390?


It isn't about who is more successful. Making $13 profit is about a strategy that could get someone closer to their goal of making a living with their books. Knowing that it's possible to make $13 profit is a very valuable piece of information.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

J. Carson Black said:


> you betcha! I'm one of those someones who saw you and realized what was possible. And I thank you from the bottom of my heart.


Yep, same here, together with Vicki and a couple of the erotica writers (I'm sorry I don't remember which ones). I had a bunch of books and told myself I'd never self-publish, that I'd wait until I got past the gatekeepers and then I'd have a nice backlog to bring online. Well, after reading the stuff here and on Konrath's blog, I said screw it, and started putting my books online. Best decision I ever made.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

It's helpful to see tangible results from people who have never been traditionally published but who are knocking it out of the park now, or at least getting on base. It's inspiring. It shows us it's possible. 

And yes, it also means we have to deal with feelings of envy. At the end of the day, though, I'd rather know than not know.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I think several of us have proved that it's useful information. This is the Writer's Cafe, and writers need to talk about business. How is discussing money any less useful than discussing Facebook advertising, KindleBoards sponsorships, reviewers, and the like?

Some people are content to get started with publishing with simply the _chance_ of making more money with it than they would sitting with rejection notices.

I've never seen anyone cash a rejection notice. I am fully prepared to display my profits to those who are interested because, like David, I'm proud of my accomplishments, but, more importantly possibly, it could help someone else make that decision to join us.

I made a rather lengthy reply in reply to opus's remarks on or around page 4. I'd like to hear her (and others') thoughts about that.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

A little anemic this month (which of course represents February - at $197.70. March (May) will be nicer at $269.00 and April not bad at #217.00.  So far my royalties from this little publishing endevor (sonce December 2007) has been $5,311.76 on sales of $16,713.51. Of course, I've had a few other shekels in the fray (such as $2,500.00 for a 2 hour reading I did in 2009 when my book, No Irish Need Apply was named Book of the Month). Considering I have not spent a dime on this enterprise, it's all profit and handy to pay my utility bill.

Edward C. Patterson


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

Sharlow said:


> Opus I'm not quite sure why you insist on coming here and riling people up. I have refrained from saying anything in response to your posts, as since you obviously don't like these kind of threads, I figured you would state your opinion and be done with it. Instead you keep coming back and making, I'm assuming by accident, slanderous statements about what my post was about. Forgive me if I'm taking your posts wrong, but the the quote above is directed at me. There are several others as well, but I'll just let it pass.


First of all, if I'm riling anyone up, then that's their reaction. I do not have control over how people react. I simply stated my opinion of this topic and others who share my feelings joined me.

Second of all, I've made NO slanderous comments. I've not called anyone names, I've not made any of this personal. I've kept it very civil. It's just been within the last few posts that people have now weilded the torches and gathered the hanging rope to come and find me, which is just sad. Why *I* get accused of not being tolerant of another person's viewpoint by the very people who do not want to tolerate mine, is just ridiculous beyond words. ANYTHING I said, I inferred directly from your OP. And the fact that OTHERS share my feelings should tell you I'm not here with malicious intent or am pulling anything out of my ass just to be a jerk. And to note, a few of the others who share my feelings also have chimed in several other times, yet I don't see you taking them to task.

But, it's okay. Copernicus was banned from the church when he revealed that the Earth revolved around the Sun, which was an idea NO ONE wanted to entertain, because it went against their grain. So I'm never alone in these situations.



> You also said all the internet thinks this board is filled with amateurs and basically were a laughing stock. Let them.


It isn't that simple, and I never said ALL the internet. (?) There is ALREADY a huge stigma attached to indie authors, thanks to operations like vanity presses from way back when. So we ALREADY started out in the hole. That's a fact no one can ignore. Talk to any other authors and the majority of the DTB authors will sneer down their noses at self-publishing, even though the industry is vastly changing.

With that in mind, I stated as clearly as I could the importance of being cautious about these types of threads. Do we really NEED any more detractors? Hell, no. We're working with enough of a deficit, and add to that eager-beavers who aren't quite ready to publish who just throw up a book without a professionally-designed cover or editor, and then we ALL suffer the backlash of tags like "DIY is amateur" and "if you want a good book, go DTB." It makes it even harder to set ourselves apart from the pack, because unfortunately, the public has a long memory, and if they read one lowsy KDP book, it's natural human nature to judge them all by the same barometer.



> we help each other to grow and blossom into good authors, and along the way we have picked up several traditionally published authors that have decided to join us on this merry little ride. This is a great place to be, and I'm sure we all welcome you to it. i love these boards, because there is no where like it on the internet.


And I've been pro-help all the way. Never said anything to the contrary. And there are a few places just like this, so we're not unique.



> Perhaps my original post was awkward. I wrote it and erased it and rewrote it over and over, and then just finally decided on making it simple.


Fair enough. I know nothing of your history with posting these types of threads previously, so I'm sorry that obviously hurt your feelings, but it *should* prove this wasn't personal.


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## lacycamey (Apr 25, 2011)

congrats, everyone! HalfOrc, wow. I took a picture of your sales on my Iphone for inspiration  Now, off BACK to writing. Nice little writing break. Have a great night everyone! Best days are in front of you all!


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> I made a rather lengthy reply in reply to opus's remarks on or around page 4. I'd like to hear her (and others') thoughts about that.


I obviously didn't respond to it because based on your replies, we are never going to reach any common ground, so why beat the dead horse? And you do it again here by raising a topic and analogy I ALREADY addressed to you, with your statement "How is discussing money any less useful than discussing Facebook advertising, KindleBoards sponsorships, reviewers, and the like?"

You ignored my reply to this, which was very clear and succinct, so I just don't think there's anything else left to say.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> I just don't think there's anything else left to say.


Good. And may God Bless.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> First of all, if I'm riling anyone up, then that's their reaction. I do not have control over how people react. I simply stated my opinion of this topic and others who share my feelings joined me.
> 
> Second of all, I've made NO slanderous comments. I've not called anyone names, I've not made any of this personal. I've kept it very civil. It's just been within the last few posts that people have now weilded the torches and gathered the hanging rope to come and find me, which is just sad. Why *I* get accused of not being tolerant of another person's viewpoint by the very people who do not want to tolerate mine, is just ridiculous beyond words. ANYTHING I said, I inferred directly from your OP. And the fact that OTHERS share my feelings should tell you I'm not here with malicious intent or am pulling anything out of my ass just to be a jerk. And to note, a few of the others who share my feelings also have chimed in several other times, yet I don't see you taking them to task.


And the number of people who disagree with your opinion is greater than the others so far. Others who share our feelings that it's hardly a matter of epic importance to the whole of indie publishing have chimed in numerous times above.



> But, it's okay. Copernicus was banned from the church when he revealed that the Earth revolved around the Sun, which was an idea NO ONE wanted to entertain, because it went against their grain. So I'm never alone in these situations.


I wouldn't really compare this simple argument to something as profound as Copernicus's revelations.



> It isn't that simple, and I never said ALL the internet. (?) There is ALREADY a huge stigma attached to indie authors, thanks to operations like vanity presses from way back when. So we ALREADY started out in the hole. That's a fact no one can ignore. Talk to any other authors and the majority of the DTB authors will sneer down their noses at self-publishing, even though the industry is vastly changing.


And the same authors can look down their noses at the recent successes of many independents. Some of that downward-nose-looking activity could very well be a little jealousy, too. Some of those same DTB authors have recently found themselves cast out of the roost if they're not producing enough profits for their super-publisher masters.



> With that in mind, I stated as clearly as I could the importance of being cautious about these types of threads. Do we really NEED any more detractors? Hell, no. We're working with enough of a deficit, and add to that eager-beavers who aren't quite ready to publish who just throw up a book without a professionally-designed cover or editor, and then we ALL suffer the backlash of tags like "DIY is amateur" and "if you want a good book, go DTB." It makes it even harder to set ourselves apart from the pack, because unfortunately, the public has a long memory, and if they read one lowsy KDP book, it's natural human nature to judge them all by the same barometer.
> 
> And I've been pro-help all the way. Never said anything to the contrary. And there are a few places just like this, so we're not unique.
> 
> Fair enough. I know nothing of your history with posting these types of threads previously, so I'm sorry that obviously hurt your feelings, but it *should* prove this wasn't personal.


I don't really buy that readers are building a movement against indies when they get one bad book. They're used to bad books for huge publishers for years now. Besides, the amount of indies gaining ground and the sheer numbers of eBook sales lately seem to refute some of that thinking. I think people will make up their minds, simple as that. If they're interested in something, they'll bite. If they're scared to try it, they will wait. If the marketing and promotion is good enough, they might try it even if they're scared to.

I've read bad work from big and small publishers alike. I haven't sworn off either one. I've also bought video games I didn't like, but I will still buy titles that interest me. It would take several terrible games from a single game developer to make me swear off their work forever.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

It's really cool seeing HalfOrc's sales because I write fantasy.  It's awesome to see there is such a huge market if you novel is good enough and speaks to enough of the readership.

Thank you again to everyone participating--this thread is such an inspiration to those of us staring out  .


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Brian, I agree the Copernicus thing was a bit much.  The stakes here are quite a bit lower.


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

I stopped reading this thread, too, but not because of the initial question. I have no problem with it being asked; anyone who doesn't wish to pony up the info is under no pressure to do so and can simply leave the thread. I don't get why anyone who resents a question wants to visit a particular thread and unleash their displeasure. Why not quietly move on elsewhere to a thread you enjoy and find useful? The first 2 pages I read with sales info were interesting as it helps gauge the earnings potential of individually published authors compared to traditionally published. Thanks to all those who shared. Best of luck to everyone with their sales.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> And Opus...seriously? You've "proven" that this info isn't useful?


Wow, David, srsly? You misquote me and then argue the point? I said I demonstrated, not that I proved. There's a big difference, but thanks so much for jumping on-board the mob bandwagon.

The ONLY reason I can think of that folks are getting so hot under the collar at me is because they're afraid that something I'm saying *just* might have some grain of truth.



> Disregarding it is just stupid, and pretending that every single indie author is some special snowflake with nothing in common to any other indie author is, again, stupid.


Dammit, I NEVER said that!!!!!!! WTF?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> You ignored my reply to this, which was very clear and succinct, so I just don't think there's anything else left to say.


I didn't ignore it - I actually replied to it in great detail. I felt that comparing this business (almost wholly done online with products that are copied digitally for the most part with no supply chains other than hitting "Upload") is a totally different world from running something like a small deli shop (a physical location in the "real world" which draws its business from selling perishable goods where there is real (and often expensive) overhead to consider).

I really think the only comparison that can be made is that, if done well and marketed correctly, both can make money. So, I guess that proves my point in the end.

But, you're right - if we aren't to talk about it, there isn't much more to say.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

RebeccaKnight said:


> It's really cool seeing HalfOrc's sales because I write fantasy. It's awesome to see there is such a huge market if you novel is good enough and speaks to enough of the readership.
> 
> Thank you again to everyone participating--this thread is such an inspiration to those of us staring out .


It is. I have to say, Rebecca, that coming here marked a sea change in my career. Before I came to KB, I was still hoping for a print deal. But then I saw what was possible. There are so many people here who have done well, and they share what they know. KB was the turning point in my career and I'm not alone in this. It's a phenom.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

Is there a possibility of stopping this derail on a "agree to disagree" sort of clause?

Opuccroakus--while we appreciate and respect your opinion, this thread is about talking about the numbers for those who want to  .  I feel like we know where you stand, and at this point, you're detracting from those of us who want to keep this thread on track.  I hope this doesn't offend--your opinion is totally valid.  However, this is no longer the place.  Those of us left would like to discuss the numbers and not argue the merits of doing so.

Thank you!


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

J. Carson Black said:


> It is. I have to say, Rebecca, that coming here marked a sea change in my career. Before I came to KB, I was still hoping for a print deal. But then I saw what was possible. There are so many people here who have done well, and they share what they know. KB was the turning point in my career and I'm not alone in this. It's a phenom.


I feel the exact same way!  Before the kindle boards and J.A. Konrath's blog, I had zero idea what was possible. The success stories here are incredibly inspirational!


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

JFHilborne said:


> I stopped reading this thread, too, but not because of the initial question. I have no problem with it being asked; anyone who doesn't wish to pony up the info is under no pressure to do so and can simply leave the thread. I don't get why anyone who resents a question wants to visit a particular thread and unleash their displeasure. Why not quietly move on elsewhere to a thread you enjoy and find useful? The first 2 pages I read with sales info were interesting as it helps gauge the earnings potential of individually published authors compared to traditionally published. Thanks to all those who shared. Best of luck to everyone with their sales.


You *really* have that much of a problem with the exchange of opposing viewpoints?? My god, that's just the saddest thing I think I've read. What a boring place it would be if we all agreed. And it's generally out of these not-always-comfortable discussions that new ideas are born, and THAT excites me.

My GOD, open your minds! Realise none of us have all the answers. I've read every single post by everyone here, because I'm open to the fact that maybe there is a facet to this argument I haven't considered.

And regarding my Copernicus statement, obtuse much? It was a clear example of how he made enemies simply because he opened his mouth to express an alternate idea, with the end result of his book being banned from by the church. Don't take it so literal. It was a parallel, ffs.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Only *with Jason Letts *can a discussion of royalties morph into a group ogle of self-propelled vacuums...


Fixed.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

RebeccaKnight said:


> I hope this doesn't offend--your opinion is totally valid. However, this is no longer the place. Those of us left would like to discuss the numbers and not argue the merits of doing so.


Oh, well, thank God you were here. Always nice to speak directly to a moderator.


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> I didn't ignore it - I actually replied to it in great detail. I felt that comparing this business (almost wholly done online with products that are copied digitally for the most part with no supply chains other than hitting "Upload") is a totally different world from running something like a small deli shop (a physical location in the "real world" which draws its business from selling perishable goods where there is real (and often expensive) overhead to consider).


NOT what I meant or was referring to, but whatever. I've been asked to shut-up now, so it doesn't matter any longer.



> So, I guess that proves my point in the end.


And that's pretty much all you wanted, so fly and be free.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> You *really* have that much of a problem with the exchange of opposing viewpoints?? My god, that's just the saddest thing I think I've read. What a boring place it would be if we all agreed. And it's generally out of these not-always-comfortable discussions that new ideas are born, and THAT excites me.
> 
> My GOD, open your minds! Realise none of us have all the answers. I've read every single post by everyone here, because I'm open to the fact that maybe there is a facet to this argument I haven't considered.
> 
> And regarding my Copernicus statement, obtuse much? It was a clear example of how he made enemies simply because he opened his mouth to express an alternate idea, with the end result of his book being banned from by the church. Don't take it so literal. It was a parallel, ffs.


I think we all agree that we respect your viewpoint, but this is no longer the place to derail this thread. If you disagree with it on principle--no worries . However, we've acknowledged that, and would like to carry on.

The derails are distracting from the actual purpose of this thread.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

opuscroakus said:


> Oh, well, thank God you were here. Always nice to speak directly to a moderator.


  Hey

Just trying to help, man.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

J. Carson Black said:


> It is. I have to say, Rebecca, that coming here marked a sea change in my career. Before I came to KB, I was still hoping for a print deal. But then I saw what was possible. There are so many people here who have done well, and they share what they know. KB was the turning point in my career and I'm not alone in this. It's a phenom.


Specifically, Sharlow's thread about sales numbers was the turning point in my career. I found it through google and immediately knew what was possible.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Opus, why not start a new thread about how awful the Moneychangers in the Temple are?  I'm sure you'll have plenty of people who feel as you do.  But here, you're a distraction.  Rebecca's right. You've run out your string. 

This is a thread for people to share what they want to share.  To help each other, encourage each other, and yes, to celebrate in the End Zone. Clearly, this is not the thread for you. Why torture yourself?  

I wish you peace.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

I, for one, would like to say that this thread has inspired me. Not the negative stuff, but those who are selling and making good profits. Thanks for sharing. I also see fantasy is doing well and I've got a few fantasy books in the works, so maybe I'll just self-pub those as well. 

I have other books out under two other pennames with a publisher, and I have to say, so far, I'm enjoying the Kindle experience much more. PJ


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> I'm really surprised that such hostility came about from an optional poll on royalties that can otherwise be mathematically determined from observing # of copies sold vs. price per unit.


Actually, I strongly disagree that this thread has been hostile. There have been strongly held, divided opinions expressed. That does not equate to hostile. Is it necessary to agree with everyone to assure non-hostility? Both sides have expressed their POV quite well, actually. The basic defense of this thread has been the standard "change the channel or turn off the TV" rebuttal. It is true. We could have avoided the thread and even the original dissenting poster could (and probably did) pass it by.

I stick with my generational thing: some things are better discussed in private company.

Gordon Ryan


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## JamieDeBree (Oct 1, 2010)

Eh, I've never really understood all the secrecy around income (of any sort) anyways. I've never been bothered to share what I made, even when I was making minimum wage and scraping to get by (although it does seem like the more people make, the more reluctant they are to share...). If people ask me point blank, I have no issue sharing that, in person or online - my salary is public knowledge anyways. And if people want to be jealous, that's their issue, not mine - knowing others make more than I do doesn't bother me or depress me. It is what it is. I think most of us are just curious by nature. If we were all less secretive, it probably wouldn't be so much of an issue because it would just be "what it is" instead of something to be kept closely guarded. I dare say the practice of not talking about income was probably started way back in the dark ages by people who couldn't handle knowing that others made/had more than they did, and gradually shamed everyone else into clamming up so they didn't have to listen to it. But I'm too lazy to research that at the moment, so I've nothing to back that up.

Just my opinions, of course. 

In any case, I brought in right around $150 last month across all sales outlets - a little more than last month (but less than Jan/Feb), and this month I'm already seeing an increase from last. 

As for context - I have 4 books out, 2 romantic suspense (1 novella @ .99, 1 short novel @ $1.49), & 2 erotica novelettes - 1 @ .99, and 1 @ $1.49.  Released in Aug. 2010, Jan. 2011, Mar. 2011, and May 2011. 

I do have a hard time understanding why people who are bothered by posts like these feel the need to post in them (or even open them at all). Seems like it's an attempt to "shame" people into clamming up...and a waste of time/energy considering the likely hood of convincing people to switch viewpoints is generally pretty low. It's not like anyone's going to hunt those who don't want to share down and try to convince them to open up - seems like it should work the other way too, IMO.


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## HeidiHall (Sep 5, 2010)

I love this! In my day job, we actively pursue what our fearless leader has coined "rigorous debate." Every point is valid, heard, respected and a consensus is formed. In this thread, the consensus is that many of us find actual numbers to be useful. I do. I would have never put out my books if I didn't know there was a real possibility of making a real return on my investment. I write because I have to. I have a story to tell and am driven to get it out of my head. I publish because I want to make money in what I hope will become my career.

A few years ago I was home sick watching daytime tv (yuck). Flipping through the channels I landed on Oprah who was interviewing Suze Orman. Interestingly enough, Suze was adamant that we (she was actually talking about women, but I think a collective "we" fits here) should NEVER be afraid to ask or tell another person in our profession what we are earning. In fact, it is to our detriment not to find out what we should be compensated (And I do realize that there are variables behind the royalty that need to be taken into account, which is why I am so addicted to these threads. Knowledge is power).That advice has stayed with me. I do not view these threads as bragging, since I actively participate in many others and have gotten to know the data behind the numbers, as well as the individual people.

Me? I definitely intend to make a living at this and while shy, I will say that my royalty check this month is enough to cover my car payment ($450) and still have enough left over to buy this:










BTW, if you have cats, this is the best litter box in the WORLD!!!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

Some members have clearly expressed their opinion that discussing one's income is, as Gordon said, "better discussed in private company."  Others have said that they see nothing wrong with it.  The points have been made clearly on both sides.  Let's all agree to disagree on this one.

As many posters have said they find the information in the thread useful, and as many posters have indicated they have no problems contributing their numbers to the thread, I'm asking that those who don't want to do so leave the others to their discussion.  Your points have been made, and heard, and are all still here to be read.  Let's move on.

Thanks!

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

JamieDeBree said:


> Eh, I've never really understood all the secrecy around income (of any sort) anyways. I've never been bothered to share what I made, even when I was making minimum wage and scraping to get by (although it does seem like the more people make, the more reluctant they are to share...). If people ask me point blank, I have no issue sharing that, in person or online - my salary is public knowledge anyways. And if people want to be jealous, that's their issue, not mine - knowing others make more than I do doesn't bother me or depress me. It is what it is. I think most of us are just curious by nature. If we were all less secretive, it probably wouldn't be so much of an issue because it would just be "what it is" instead of something to be kept closely guarded. I dare say the practice of not talking about income was probably started way back in the dark ages by people who couldn't handle knowing that others made/had more than they did, and gradually shamed everyone else into clamming up so they didn't have to listen to it. But I'm too lazy to research that at the moment, so I've nothing to back that up.
> 
> Just my opinions, of course.
> 
> ...


If there was a "Like" button, I'd press it. Good on ya, and welcome to KB!


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

Gordon Ryan said:


> Actually, I strongly disagree that this thread has been hostile. There have been strongly held, divided opinions expressed. That does not equate to hostile.


Thank-you, Gordon. I'm glad to see not everyone here chooses to view me as the anti-Christ.



> Is it necessary to agree with everyone to assure non-hostility?


Well, actually, on this board? You bet. I get in constant trouble and am painted as nothing BUT the enemy because I choose to express opposing viewpoints and have since I began posting in August. It doesn't happen to me anywhere else that I post. Just here. There's something very threatening to the regular authors who post when an alterate opinion is expressed clearly and in a logical manner. And if we analyse human behaviour with that in mind, it can only point to one thing: opposing viewpoints threaten everyone.



> Both sides have expressed their POV quite well, actually. The basic defense of this thread has been the standard "change the channel or turn off the TV" rebuttal. It is true. We could have avoided the thread and even the original dissenting poster could (and probably did) pass it by.


I'm assuming you're referring to me? If so, yes, I took awhile before I posted, and even then, I read the OP, left the room to do errands, came back and re-read it again, left, watched TV, re-read it again, posted to other threads, came back, and all so I could make entirely sure I was NOT misunderstanding some point of it. ALL so I could form a very cogent and logical opinion that wouldn't "rile" everyone up. And you see what it's turned into.


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> Screw it. I don't mind sharing, and honestly, if you guys think I'm doing it to brag...you're partly right. I'm d*mn proud of my sales, my income, and what I've accomplished. I'm not embarrassed, nor ashamed of it. And if you really don't want to read what other people are making...wtf are you doing reading this thread? And I still think this information can be very useful, for at the least, it can help dispel the notion that self-publishing is a fool's game where no one makes a dime.
> 
> Last month was $18,000.
> This month will clear $32,000.


David, I can't recall the last time I saw you blow your top. You always have been one of the coolest heads on the forum. Did someone step on your puppy this morning?

Gordon Ryan


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Gordon Ryan said:


> Actually, I strongly disagree that this thread has been hostile. There have been strongly held, divided opinions expressed. That does not equate to hostile. Is it necessary to agree with everyone to assure non-hostility? Both sides have expressed their POV quite well, actually. The basic defense of this thread has been the standard "change the channel or turn off the TV" rebuttal. It is true. We could have avoided the thread and even the original dissenting poster could (and probably did) pass it by.
> 
> I stick with my generational thing: some things are better discussed in private company.
> 
> Gordon Ryan


I don't know, I felt the chief argument was those who felt it shouldn't be discussed openly vs. those who didn't see a problem with sharing. I won't deny that there were several who said to ignore it and move on if you don't want to participate (I agree and do that all the time, but I wasn't the one who said it).

Either way, it's far too heated for such a simple thing, so I will do as Betsy says and "Agree to disagree."

In other news, I'm on track for $1,200+ this month, so here's to hoping the pace continues! And congrats to everyone else making $1+!


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Gordon Ryan said:


> David, I can't recall the last time I saw you blow your top. You always have been one of the coolest heads on the forum. Did someone step on your puppy this morning?
> 
> Gordon Ryan


What I saw was an effort by a select few to badger everyone else into silence (not to be confused with those who simply said they didn't like it and then left the thread alone, as would make logical sense). I decided, whether that was the case or not, I didn't feel like being silent. I didn't feel like having my actions dictated by someone's attempt to shame, insinuate, or implicate. So screw it. Here's how much I made. I really wasn't all that ticked. I was in the middle of a poker game, and had to write quickly. Less time to make sure there was a smiley-face thrown in there


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## opuscroakus (Aug 7, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> What I saw was an effort by a select few to badger everyone else into silence (not to be confused with those who simply said they didn't like it and then left the thread alone, as would make logical sense). I decided, whether that was the case or not, I didn't feel like being silent. I didn't feel like having my actions dictated by someone's attempt to shame, insinuate, or implicate. So screw it. Here's how much I made. I really wasn't all that ticked. I was in the middle of a poker game, and had to write quickly. Less time to make sure there was a smiley-face thrown in there


Wow. I've never been given that much power before--ON A FORUM. I can't "make" anyone do something, so badgering is a value judgement you put there yourself. And I certainly can't "dictate" your actions, unless you allow me to have that power over you. You give away your personal power easily, yes?

You read way too much into all of it and then got too angry over what was a spirited discussion.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Let me repeat myself:



Betsy the Quilter said:


> As many posters have said they find the information in the thread useful, and as many posters have indicated they have no problems contributing their numbers to the thread, I'm asking that those who don't want to do so leave the others to their discussion. Your points have been made, and heard, and are all still here to be read. Let's move on.


Future off topic posts in this thread will be removed. Obviously, any member can start a new thread about any topic they wish to discuss. This thread is for discussion of royalty checks.

Thanks.

Betsy


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> What I saw was an effort by a select few to badger everyone else into silence (not to be confused with those who simply said they didn't like it and then left the thread alone, as would make logical sense). I decided, whether that was the case or not, I didn't feel like being silent. I didn't feel like having my actions dictated by someone's attempt to shame, insinuate, or implicate. So screw it. Here's how much I made. I really wasn't all that ticked. I was in the middle of a poker game, and had to write quickly. Less time to make sure there was a smiley-face thrown in there


I love your atttude, David, and I love hearing how much you made. It's inspiring. Seriously. It makes me realize a living can be made at this.

FWIW, I think I made about $1,600 last month but won't know until Amazon puts up their report for April. It's not huge but it ain't bad either.


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## LiteraryGrrrl (Jan 24, 2011)

Daniel Pyle said:


> If there hadn't been data about indie publishing out there when I started, I might never have gone indie in the first place, and that would have been the biggest mistake of my life. (Except maybe for the fish taco incident.)


THIS. 
Except for the fish taco part. 

Shana


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I wanna hear more about the fish taco. For starters, what are its monthly sales like?


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Those who bought fish tacos also bought: Fish Taco Supremo; Smelt Enchilada; El Trouto Tinajas; and The Snooki Grande.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Sigh...Unless The Fish Tacos is a best-selling book series, someone's gonna want me to remove these posts for being off topic....


Betsy
who is now craving fish tacos from my favorite San Diego restaurant....


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Let me repeat myself:
> 
> Future off topic posts in this thread will be removed. Obviously, any member can start a new thread about any topic they wish to discuss. This thread is for discussion of royalty checks.
> 
> ...


Betsy, how wonderful. I fear that it may go unheeded by many who have only lived in America (and that is not a slam) but ten minutes in the "Sin Bin" with the Yellow Card is used so frequently here in New Zealand to remind people to calm down. Next up, folks, the Red Card, which means, "Hit the showers. You're done."

Appreciate your jumping in, Betsy. This has run its course for certain.

Gordon Ryan


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> What I saw was an effort by a select few to badger everyone else into silence (not to be confused with those who simply said they didn't like it and then left the thread alone, as would make logical sense). I decided, whether that was the case or not, I didn't feel like being silent. I didn't feel like having my actions dictated by someone's attempt to shame, insinuate, or implicate. So screw it. Here's how much I made. I really wasn't all that ticked. I was in the middle of a poker game, and had to write quickly. Less time to make sure there was a smiley-face thrown in there


So, David, we now know that you make enough to squander it away on poker. What night shall I attend? What I can't make from writing, I'll take from your "tell."

Gordon Ryan


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## Charliegirl (Apr 23, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I just read the first one last night, and I'm willing to swear to it in KB court. Not reading the Snooki one, though. I have standards.


Now you make Snookie sad...










Would help to know The Situation was the editor? (I can't even type that with a straight face )​
Anyway, to stay on topic (or try to), Sharlow your response was very eloquent. Based on that I'm sure it's not because your book "sucked" that it didn't sell. On Konraths blog he tells people they really don't have to do much advertising. I love that blog and it's absolutely one of the main reasons I decided to self publish on kindle, but I have a hard time believing the "just write it and relax" idea. Not saying that you didn't advertise, but you can't expect much your first month. I already know my first check won't be anywhere in the hundreds but I'm trilled about what i've sold so far  How ever by the end of 2 years, I expect to be making decent money. That seems to be the average time it takes a self published kindle writer to really get going (and I learned that from topics and threads like this one!)


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

It's funny that I feel more comfortable finding out and sharing my royalties than checking my actual sales numbers. I would like to suggest that we do this ever month. Personally what I would like to get out of it is how effective is a 99 cent book for making a living. Sure it helps to move copies, but are those that opt for the higher prices doing fundamentally better financially speaking. 

I can't help but thing that the powers that be at Amazon are sitting around trying to figure out how to get 99 centers to raise their price. I'm sure that they have plenty of research that says that they would make more money if books were priced higher, and that they would certainly earn more in the long run. I even suspect that they are willing to tweak there analytics to favor books that would be more profitable for them. After all why wouldn't they. I'm sure in that deli that was described earlier the more profitable meats are moved to a better position in the show case. Why would we expect Amazon to have less business smarts than our fictional deli owner?

Anyway, Sharlow, thanks for pulling the trigger on this idea. Let's keep this up and answer some questions along the way. Oh, and for next month, may I humbly suggest a breakdown of books that are included in the royalty amount.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> It's funny that I feel more comfortable finding out and sharing my royalties than checking my actual sales numbers. I would like to suggest that we do this ever month. Personally what I would like to get out of it is how effective is a 99 cent book for making a living. Sure it helps to move copies, but are those that opt for the higher prices doing fundamentally better financially speaking.
> 
> I can't help but thing that the powers that be at Amazon are sitting around trying to figure out how to get 99 centers to raise their price. I'm sure that they have plenty of research that says that they would make more money if books were priced higher, and that they would certainly earn more in the long run. I even suspect that they are willing to tweak there analytics to favor books that would be more profitable for them. After all why wouldn't they. I'm sure in that deli that was described earlier the more profitable meats are moved to a better position in the show case. Why would we expect Amazon to have less business smarts than our fictional deli owner?
> 
> Anyway, Sharlow, thanks for pulling the trigger on this idea. Let's keep this up and answer some questions along the way. Oh, and for next month, may I humbly suggest a breakdown of books that are included in the royalty amount.


The 99 cent book is not, in and of itself, ideal for making a living for over 99% of people. There are some that sell enough at .99 to support themselves, but most that have a .99 book also have titles priced higher (or just a whole bunch at .99) to actually make money in it.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> The 99 cent book is not, in and of itself, ideal for making a living for over 99% of people. There are some that sell enough at .99 to support themselves, but most that have a .99 book also have titles priced higher (or just a whole bunch at .99) to actually make money in it.


Do you think that your 99 centers are responsible for the revenue of your $2.99 'ers? What's your revenue breakdown like?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

For a while, it helped drive sales. When the sales got too slow to justify leaving it at .99, I put them all at $2.99. There is a point where .99 can't be sustained, and I reached it. Sales have picked up some since I raised the price back up on book 1. We'll see if the trend continues. It's hard to approximate what might happen on Amazon at any given time.

It has been proven that, with a good mix of promotion and discounts, you can drive sales upward for some time and it can help your other titles. .99 should always be just another part of your business strategy, not a replacement or done due to a lack thereof.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> For a while, it helped drive sales. When the sales got too slow to justify leaving it at .99, I put them all at $2.99. There is a point where .99 can't be sustained, and I reached it. Sales have picked up some since I raised the price back up on book 1. We'll see if the trend continues. It's hard to approximate what might happen on Amazon at any given time.
> 
> It has been proven that, with a good mix of promotion and discounts, you can drive sales upward for some time and it can help your other titles. .99 should always be just another part of your business strategy, not a replacement or done due to a lack thereof.


So really you used the reduced price as a extended promotion. And after you raised the price, did you see a drop in revenue for your other books?


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

I aint read the thread, but I have an answer to the question in the title.

Inadequate.

That is what my last royalty check was.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Charliegirl said:


>


I'm sure Snookie is a lovely person, but I immediately thought of this:


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

And in case you've ever wondered where half-orcs come from:


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

RebeccaKnight said:


> I agree with everything you just posted, Brian--thank you for that!
> 
> It was Joe (and Barry, mentioned earlier in jest) posting their sales figures that made me do the math and realize that indie publishing was more in line with my goal of making a living as a writer.
> 
> Numbers definitely do help people, especially those on the fence about whether or not to take a stab at this profession.


Hear hear, Rebecca and Brian! I love this thread. MOST of this thread.


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## Guest (May 11, 2011)

Daniel Pyle said:


> (Except maybe for the fish taco incident.)


Fish tacos are always a mistake. They look good on a menu, and you think: "I like fish and I like tacos, so how could I dislike fish tacos?" And then you get it and its disgusting and bland.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

foreverjuly said:


> Fish tacos are always a mistake. They look good on a menu, and you think: "I like fish and I like tacos, so how could I dislike fish tacos?" And then you get it and its disgusting and bland.


Depends on the kind of fish you use -- and how much hot sauce is involved.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

As Betsy posted yesterday evening:  off topic posts will be removed. . . .

That includes fish tacos.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

DanaG said:


> Hear hear, Rebecca and Brian! I love this thread. MOST of this thread.


I love this thread, too! 

I was thinking for my fantasy novel that I'd debut it at .99 as sort of a "hey, holy crap--it's out, everyone! You should buy it and give me reviews--wheeee!" type deal.

After I'd had a few reviews, I'd bump it up to 2.99 and have occasional discounts when needed to keep the sales flowing.

Has anyone here used this strategy and would you mind sharing how it worked (or if it worked at all)?

I keep going back and forth on whether I should start at .99 and then raise once I've gotten exposure, or start at 2.99 and drop it to a "sale" price as needed?

Math was never my strong suit!  I'm a writer, dangit!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

RebeccaKnight said:


> I love this thread, too!
> 
> I was thinking for my fantasy novel that I'd debut it at .99 as sort of a "hey, holy crap--it's out, everyone! You should buy it and give me reviews--wheeee!" type deal.
> 
> ...


My own 35% royalty of .02 would advise setting it to $2.99 and then dropping the price after a couple of weeks. Sometimes you get a boost from the book looking like it's on sale. It's hard to remove the random element to success or lack thereof, however.


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## matt youngmark (Jan 11, 2011)

If it helps anyone, my last Amazon check was for $400, and the next should be around $550. That's for one book (which is kind of an odd duck, meaning it benefits from its gimmicky nature but also suffers from not fitting into a well-defined niche) priced at $2.99. My sales rank usually hovers between 5,000 and 10,000. The ebook has been on sale for over a year, but languished in obscurity at a higher price until 4 months ago.

My ebook sales may also be boosted by the fact that in the past I've had decent print sales (the book is in some comic and game shops, which gets it out there in front of people).

I've found threads like this one to be very inspiring as well. The biggest lesson I've taken away from them is to focus on writing more books, rather than on trying to promote the lonely title that's already out there!


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

That is so cool that you have one book that's paying for a car payment, food, or half of someone's rent!  Who says you can't make money writing?

This is stuff that makes me want to get my butt in gear  .


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Count me in for the "it's good to talk about money" camp. I just used too much time reading this thread, so want to add some solid information for anyone else who's gotten this far.

I'm too new to have received a check yet, but I have learned one lesson that Modwitch already alluded to: the real money is in the 70% royalty world. When you look at earnings, just in my three months out, there's no comparison between a 99c title and a 2.99 one. While reporting our sales numbers and rankings is interesting, to see the actual $ totals is more realistic, useful, practical.

If this thread reappears in the following months, I'll post hard numbers. I've been helped by Konrath and others here and would like to do the same for newcomers. RWA just sent out a survey seeking out this kind of information for a reason--it's empowering for writers. Thanks to everyone who participates.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I've not yet been able to figure out what I should be charging.  I've gone from 4.95 to 2.99 to .99 and back again and down again.  

I do take heart though from something I read on the boards a while back that is proving to be true.  Over time, sales increase.  I put my book up the last week of January and had 2 sales that week.  Feb. - 9  March - 12  April - 21  In May as of today I've sold 9.  I'm hoping that by the EOM I'll have either matched or outsold April. I like moving in that direction.  I think I'll keep them at .99 though as I think it is almost expected.

I know that on a small income, I have loved being able to buy so many Kindle books.  I've found there are many I want but when I see the 2.99 I pass, as I know while things are rough for me I can get three books for that.  Not cheap...just wealth challenged at the moment.


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## Charliegirl (Apr 23, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> I'm sure Snookie is a lovely person, but I immediately thought of this:


ROFL!! L


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

Seems I'm a little late to the party here (and it's really rocking now with all the snooki and ape pics...), but I just had to chime in. 

Sharlow - I think it's great that you started this thread. When I get together with my local writing crew we always talk money. Why? Well, of course we're all curious. (Who isn't?) But ultimately, sharing that information helps us figure out how to best plot out our own careers. 

What David Dalglish said. And Victorine. I couldn't agree more.

Case in point, I remember reading on Amanda Hocking's blog in November that she'd sold 10,000 books in one week. Seriously, this was such a big moment for me. I thought, "Hey! That's what's possible. That's what can be done." From that moment on, I was even more serious about self-publishing original titles. Knowing her figures helped me focus on my own career in a really positive way. Same with Konrath - God bless him for posting his sales and $ all the time. Again, I can remember reading when he'd made $18k last summer in a 6 week period. It was amazing. Stupendous. And, got me thinking about my own books and career.

As you might have guessed, I'm more than happy to share my numbers. Which is exactly what I told the Washington Post when they called to ask about interviewing me for the article that came out last Sunday.  I happily logged into my retailer accounts and pulled up my sales reports for the reporter while he was sitting next to me at my computer. 

So, to add my answer to those who've given figures so far, my last royalty check with everything added together for the month was $45,000. 

I hope that other writers are as inspired by seeing those numbers as I am by seeing Hocking's and Konrath's and Victorine's and Dalglish's and Tina Folsom's and every other person who hangs out on kb that is working so hard to write great books and get them out there. 

 Bella
(aka Lucy Kevin when I'm in a chick-lit kind of mood)


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Whoa, Bella! That's Amazing! And motivational! I might just have to download one of your YUMMY looking books tonight! PJ


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

The only thing I can say about your numbers, Bella, is that it's a bit depressing to me. I'm a guy. I can't write those sexy books aimed at women. It's just not in me. I can write sexy stuff, but it's the kind of sexy stuff men like, not women. 

Anyway, rock on.


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

Given the debate that occurred here yesterday, it did in fact peak my interest in my sales history and caused me to Excel myself to death today, just taking stock. I am still chronologically and genetically impeded from posting sales numbers, but another factoid that will benefit newbies and my other colleagues as well is the growth pattern.

I first published an ebook in Oct 2009. Over the next three months I slowly loaded all of my backlist (formerly hardback and softbound novels for which I had recovered all rights.) The growth grew through 2010, not as phenomenally as some on KB, but more than I thought.

So, not counting that first three months (the last quarter of 2009 when I sold 15 books and made $35) I have been epublishing for 16 months. During that time I have published 11 novels, both back list and newly written material, with another two about to come forth. Collectively, they have made xxx thousand dollars, but this is the point I wanted to make to everyone who is interested in the growth pattern.

58% of my earnings for the entire 19 months *has come in the past four months*, all in 2011. The growth continues. So I am waiting for that spike that I see with so many of our other colleagues. If it comes, great, if not, at least you know that the growth does take a bit of time and is not linear.

Gordon Ryan


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

That is wonderful Gordon!  Thank you for sharing that as it does give hope that time and quantity are both factors in growth.  Thanks so much!


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## TheSFReader (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks Gordon. I understand your reticence to talk about numbers, but your "curve description" is great information/confirmation of a general trend.


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## Herman (May 3, 2011)

This is a very interesting thread for me as a new writer.
And yes, money does matter!
If I can make a living out of writing, 
I have more time to write more books. 
Which again allows me to make a living out of writing...
Well, you got my point, I guess.


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## Lanie Jordan (Feb 23, 2011)

I have no problems with these types of threads. I think they're great for inspiration and yet help to keep things realistic.

The high numbers let us know that great numbers CAN happen to anyone. But I also want to see the average numbers and those of people who are just starting out.

Maybe someday, when I have information to actually share, I'll be brave enough to do so.   Thanks to all of you who shared their numbers with us!


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## brettjirvine (May 3, 2011)

I'm not particularly bothered by questions about money. Money is just money, what difference does it make to me if you know what I've earned this month? In any case, I'm not interested in getting into the debate, but I am interested in seeing how other self pubbed authors in a similar situation to me have faired. Yes, I understand the best way to success in this business is to write good books, as many as you can, and market them well, and the sales will take care of themselves. But I'm still interested in what the figures are looking like for other writers in similar genres, who are at the same place or were at the same place a short while ago.

To compare against my own sales? Not really, seeing as though I've only sold 8 books in the 3 weeks since I published my first short story collection (mostly to friends and family) and I don't consider my sales worthy of comparison. But perhaps as some kind of inspiration, or as a benchmark against which to put myself - I don't believe I'm going to sell like Amanda Hocking, but I would like to see if other writers with more realistic figures are able to make a living out of this. Yes, yes, it all depends on the quality of the book, I get that - but if everyone else is earning $500 a month then it's not really something I'm going to quit my day job for.

Realistically, is someone with 10 books, some short story collections, writing in the horror/fantasy/speculative fiction genre, markets ok and has been selling for say 2 years, going to make in excess of $5000 per month (that's my mark for quitting my day job)? That's what I'd really like to know, and it would interest me to see how many people are on that path.

Anyway, as the question asked it, I'll answer it: living in South Africa, I only get a royalty check once my royalties exceed $100 (since I don't have a US bank account). At this stage, I'm on $2.10 from amazon, and $1.38 from smashwords. So there you go.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Following Gordon's example:

January Royalties: N
February Royalties: 4N
March Royalties: 7N
April Royalties: 17N

The trend is my friend.


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## RebeccaKnight (May 1, 2011)

I *love* the idea of seeing the growth factor!  I'm sure that's what most of us are interested in--that elusive "when does it pick up if ever?" question.

Thank you for sharing!


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## jongoff (Mar 31, 2011)

Well, I'm in my second full month so I haven't seen a royalty check yet, and the first one will not be anything to write home about, but I have more than quadrupled my sales from the first month (April).  I sold 7 copies total. So far, this month, I've sold 32 as of today.  I didn't price it at .99¢ for a couple reasons, but the main one is I do want to make a living at this, and that's less likely to happen at .35¢ a book. 

Granted, the data I'm pulling from isn't enough to make a projection, but I am pleased with the sales so far, all things considered. I am on target for quintupling my sales from last month, and I could live with that trend, but I'm not holding my breath.  We'll see how it goes.


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## Guest (May 23, 2011)




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