# Trends in epic fantasy?



## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Are there any trends in epic fantasy lately? Something new or noticable?


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Traditional publishing would have us believe that grimdark is the hot new thing. Most big trad releases this year (Court of Broken Knives, Godblind, Blackwing) have been very obviously grimdark - but a quick perusal of their Goodreads pages suggests that grimdark isn't nearly as popular as NY thinks. 

It's a year or two old at this point, but LitRPG is still very popular in indie publishing, with many releases cracking the top 700 on Amazon. I'm not sure if it's a broad-based movement, or just that those who are into LitRPG are REALLY into it, and read it constantly. 

I'd maintain that the most popular kind of epic fantasy is still the non-grimdark coming of age stories that have been popular forever. Not super-trendy, but a lot of the top indie fantasy authors have found great success with this tried and true formula - Dawn of Wonder, Benjamin Ashwood, Wolf of the North, etc.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Thanks a lot, Alec. Do you think that the "non-grimdark coming of age stories" are more popular with the YA crowd?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Are there any trends in epic fantasy lately? Something new or noticable?


Same old boring-ass grimdark that's forced me to go back to late 90's and Early 2000's backlog plus pretty much just Brandon Sanderson for my fantasy needs.

Someday my favorite genre will be not-terrible...


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

No, not necessarily. Actually, I think a lot of adults read what many would consider almost YA. It's comforting stuff. Is The Name of the Wind YA? There's not much in the way of adult themes and follows a teenager around. Are Robert Jordan's books YA? Brandon Sanderson? Compare those books to Bakker or Martin or Abercrombie. A lot of people just want to go on an adventure, without all the baggage of adult life.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Vaalingrade said:


> Same old boring-ass grimdark that's forced me to go back to late 90's and Early 2000's backlog plus pretty much just Brandon Sanderson for my fantasy needs.
> 
> Someday my favorite genre will be not-terrible...


I happen to agree with you. I think it's pretty incredible that trad keeps pumping out these grimdark / new weird books no one wants. Indies are absolutely cleaning up because you simply can't find debuts in the vein of Jordan / Sanderson / Rothfuss / Eddings anymore. As someone who watches the fantasy publishing scene pretty closely, I really find it mind-boggling.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

But if those grimdark books are in the Amazon toplists, they must be selling well too?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Kat_Merikan said:


> But if those grimdark books are in the Amazon toplists, they must be selling well too?


I know it's sacrilege to say here, but sales don't mean quality especially in books where there's a lot of follow the leader and prestige buying of crtically proclaimed works. And frankly critics heavily favor cynicism and wangst.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

My first epic fantasy series is sort of YA. Meaning I keep the story focused more on the quest and the protagonist is YA. Nothing really dark but there's some of that.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Kat_Merikan said:


> But if those grimdark books are in the Amazon toplists, they must be selling well too?


Big names pushed by publishers will hit the lists, but that doesn't mean they'll have sticking power. I rarely buy high fantasy or science fiction from trad publishers because I don't like the stories. The last thing I need is to spend 15 bucks on a doorstop that bores me to tears.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Vaalingrade said:


> Same old boring-ass grimdark that's forced me to go back to late 90's and Early 2000's backlog plus pretty much just Brandon Sanderson for my fantasy needs.
> 
> Someday my favorite genre will be not-terrible...


Soon, soon.. I'm working on it!


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

AlecHutson said:


> No, not necessarily. Actually, I think a lot of adults read what many would consider almost YA. It's comforting stuff. Is The Name of the Wind YA? There's not much in the way of adult themes and follows a teenager around. Are Robert Jordan's books YA? Brandon Sanderson? Compare those books to Bakker or Martin or Abercrombie. A lot of people just want to go on an adventure, without all the baggage of adult life.


It's really hard to write an epic fantasy with older people .. lol usually the MC and his friends are learning life lessons and discovering something new about themselves and the world around them so you put a middle aged anyone in there and your stuck asking 'why now?'

Sanderson, Jordan, Rothfuss they aren't meant to be YA but a lot of people don't even notice authors such as Mercedes Lackey or Tamora Pierce, who are incredible YA authors.. Kristen Britain used to be there with them but she killed me with her Green Rider series when she temporarily flipped it too far forward for my taste, Sanderson too, once the guns come in, I go out.. hmm Lynn Flewelling wrote a great series, the2 MC's are gay (can I say that? no offense I swear I just don't know the correct term anymore lol) but its very tastefully done and I love the books, the Warded man series by Peter V Brett.. and I am currently trying to read Kel Kade's 3rd book in the Kings Dark Tidings series, the first two were epic the last just came out at over 2000 pages and I haven't been able to sit down to read it. There are just so many its hard to keep track ..


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm liking a lot of the noblebright fantasy out there. CJ Brightley leading the charge. I'd say write the epic fantasy you're passionate about and don't worry much about whatever trend is popular with tradpub at the moment.


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## JZacharyPike (Sep 22, 2017)

Jim Johnson said:


> I'd say write the epic fantasy you're passionate about and don't worry much about whatever trend is popular with tradpub at the moment.


Amen to that. Fantasy is a big tent. Go to the corner you're happy in, not the one that's crowded.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Epic Fantasy is a big genre and there is a lot of variety.

I'm a big fan of Joe Abercrombie, but also like the adventure style and the detective style, and I like lots of politics in my fantasy.

What I like less: goodie-two-shoes characters and simplistic settings of good vs evil. But some of it sells well, so... It's a big genre.


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

I'm not a fantasy reader, but I confess to enjoying GoT on television. 

Just a thought - is grimdark perhaps doing well at the moment sales-wise to fill the void between the Fire and Ice novels?


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

ADDavies said:


> I'm not a fantasy reader, but I confess to enjoying GoT on television.
> 
> Just a thought - is grimdark perhaps doing well at the moment sales-wise to fill the void between the Fire and Ice novels?


I would contend that it's not actually selling very well - it's just what trad pub is publishing. GOT, Abercrombie, and Lawrence have convinced editors / agents that this is the future of fantasy, but I'm seeing lackluster reception for grimdark recently


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

ADDavies said:


> I'm not a fantasy reader, but I confess to enjoying GoT on television.


Ha ha, almost seems like it's shameful to admit among this crowd  I'm a big fan too.

I'm fishing for opinions out of interest, also because I'm looking for good reads, but when I dip my toe into epic fantasy it will be of the M/M romance variety. I will just write the story I'd want to read, but for what I'm thinking, I will try to look for a balance between gritty an epic. I want to find out about niche genres that you don't always see on top lists populated by tradpub books.


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## Kay7979 (Aug 20, 2016)

I heard people say a couple years ago that the grimdark trend was waning. I hope so, and I'm encouraged to see that many of you prefer upbeat fantasy novels. There's enough grimdark in the real world. I want to read about people who have character, and I want that sense of wonder found in some of the classic fantasy novels. I write what I enjoy and hope others with similar tastes find it. Admittedly, that's not the best market strategy, but I write first and foremost for my own enjoyment. Some people probably see that my books have gnome as well as human characters and assume the stories will be cutsey-poo, but the stories incorporate many serious issues while being adventurous and sometimes humorous. 

Write what you're passionate about because that's bound to be your best writing.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Ha ha, almost seems like it's shameful to admit among this crowd  I'm a big fan too.
> 
> I'm fishing for opinions out of interest, also because I'm looking for good reads, but when I dip my toe into epic fantasy it will be of the M/M romance variety. I will just write the story I'd want to read, but for what I'm thinking, I will try to look for a balance between gritty an epic. I want to find out about niche genres that you don't always see on top lists populated by tradpub books.


Ah. more M/M epic fantasy please, there doesn't seem to be a lot of it at the moment 

I loved the Nightrunner Series by Lynn Flewelling who someone mentioned above and Mercedes Lackey usually has lots of diverse sexualities in her books.

Carol Berg, Rowena Corey Daniells and Glenda Larke are some of my favourite epic fantasy writers along with Brandon Sanderson and Gail Z Martin. Carol Berg usually has older heroes or heroines rather than coming of age, but the coming of age trope seems to be in a lot of fantasy I read, and it hasn't put me off.

Just write the story your characters need you to write.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Mercedes Lackey BROKE me when I was a teen with the character death  

But yes, I've been looking for M/M high fantasy to read, and there isn't all that much. There's lots of shifters, paranormal, but that's not what I'm looking for.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

_If there is a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, you must be the one to write it_. -- Toni Morrison


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Ha ha, that might just be my destiny, Jim


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Puddleduck said:


> I keep seeing LitRPG talked about. Can anyone point me to a detailed description of what that actually is?
> 
> I've never been able to get very into epic fantasy, but I think it's partly because everywhere I look, it's all depressing with no heroes and everyone doing awful things. Grimdark, in other words. I'd love some recs for uplifting epic fantasy stories with no/few character deaths and happy endings.
> 
> (I've read LOTR, of course, but not a whole lot of epic fantasy beyond that. Although I've bought most of Sanderson's books and haven't gotten to his epic fantasies yet.)


Yeah, we are actually talking about a lot of different books here. Some are very similar, some only look similar on the outside.

epic fantasy- *focus on the quest*, (coming of age, life lessons), heavy, immersive world-building, an element of magic and/or fantastic creatures/races.

Romance fantasy (in a high-fantasy setting)- *follows romance tropes* and weaves in some elements of epic fantasy like a quest, world-building, etc. but a large focus is on tropes from the romance genre.

Grimdark- More on the *sword and sorcery* edge of epic fantasy where life is brutal, a lot of characters die, and the military or fighting is a huge part of the story.

That's at least how I've always viewed them.


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

I'm a fan of gritty, realism in fantasy, so I love GRRM. I'm okay with some of the grimdark, but mostly I think it pushes beyond reality, which isn't what I'm after. I wrote my fantasy novel because I always wanted to see a traditional high fantasy 'Tolkienesque' story but written as a gritty, realistic tale. I like what I produced, but I haven't been able to make people take notice, probably because they just see 'elf' and flee without looking further into it.


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## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

Puddleduck said:


> I keep seeing LitRPG talked about. Can anyone point me to a detailed description of what that actually is?


If you're serious about exploring what it is and what its adherents _think_ it is, here is a good place to start:

https://litrpgforum.com/threads/whats-a-good-definition-of-litrpg.150/

It is numerous pages long (that's why I asked if you were serious) because the fans, readers, and potential authors are working out what exactly they mean by "LitRPG." _Some_ sort of semi-standard definition needs to exist or else there is just chaos, which helps no one, neither readers nor writers.


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Are there any trends in epic fantasy lately? Something new or noticable?


Just gonna put my hands in my pockets and walk away, whistling.


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## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

Puddleduck said:


> I have an idea for something that I think might be a LitRPG idea, but I'm not familiar enough with that designation to know if, when I write the book, I should put it in that category or not. Or if, if I do, I'll upset readers of that genre who are expecting something my story doesn't have.


One good place to start is the book, _Ready Player One_, by Ernest Cline. It is often thought of as the progenitor of the genre. The movie is coming out in 2018 and looks exciting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiK2fhOY0nE


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

LitRPG readers tend to really like portal fantasies, as well; the more realistic, the better. I got a great email from a reader who said that my fight scenes were hard to follow because I didn't keep track of hit points. You can't please everybody.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Puddleduck said:


> That's unfortunate, because I really hated that book. Couldn't even get through it. Maybe I'll play it safe and not call my book LitRPG, if that's the sort of thing people will be expecting.


LitRPG has very specific tropes you will have to hit in order for it to be accepted among the readers. You have to have LitRPG in mind when you write it, not as an after-thought.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Herefortheride said:


> LitRPG has very specific tropes you will have to hit in order for it to be accepted among the readers. You have to have LitRPG in mind when you write it, not as an after-thought.


What would you say those are? Because it incorporates both computer games, table top, or even... being pulled into a book? Or does the last one not count?


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

Puddleduck said:


> That's unfortunate, because I really hated that book. Couldn't even get through it. Maybe I'll play it safe and not call my book LitRPG, if that's the sort of thing people will be expecting.


Essentially, if your MC finds himself/herself in a game -- either a video game or an RPG (or, arguably, a world closely resembling an RPG, but there is some contention on this point) -- then it's LitRPG. Think _Jumanji_, or the old _Dungeons and Dragons_ cartoon from the 80's. There were also a number of YA books following this theme back then, though for the life of me I can't remember a single one by name. Anyway, this theme is coming back, and big time. LitRPG readers are loyal and ravenous for new material.

One piece of this is that -- and no offense to anyone -- a lot of the LitRPG that's coming out right now isn't written very well. There appear to be many fledgling authors taking to LitRPG as their first effort, and they appear to be gamers first and foremost and don't have much writing experience. You can see this in LitRPG groups on FB; there are posts every day from gamers who decide they're going to write a book about their gaming experiences and want to know where to start. As a result, some -- maybe much -- of the indie LitRPG out there is pretty raw and essentially fanfic, at least what I'm seeing; some of it is excellent, but there is a lot of unedited, first-draft material finding its way into the genre. There are huge opportunities right now in LitRPG for a writer with solid chops who gets the attention of the readership.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Kat_Merikan said:


> What would you say those are? Because it incorporates both computer games, table top, or even... being pulled into a book? Or does the last one not count?


Combines a fantasy quest with the feel of an online computer game. Well-laid out quests, achivements, "leveling up", items which increase the hero's "attributes", must use a lot of "gamer terms/language", player's stats, even hit points/life points. They also must take place in a fictional game world.


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## JZacharyPike (Sep 22, 2017)

Herefortheride said:


> LitRPG has very specific tropes you will have to hit in order for it to be accepted among the readers. You have to have LitRPG in mind when you write it, not as an after-thought.


That's interesting. I've always thought of it as a sort of catch all for any fantasy with references to (or awareness of) gaming trends. I've had a few readers identify my books as LitRPG or Pseudo-LitRPG, but I never tried to be in either genre. (Not that I have anything against them -- it's just not what I'm going for.)

I guess that's where the Pseudo-LitRPG label comes from. Although I'm not fond of the label, as it makes it sound like my books is a false form of something else.


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Puddleduck said:


> Interesting. Sounds like my idea wouldn't fit anyway, then. It's funny how specific some of these subgenres are.


It is funny. My sci-fi and fantasy novels may have fit into this genre if it weren't for those specific 'requirements' to be gamey. My characters take part in very realistic seeming VR games, but there isn't a gamey feel to the story. I wrote these before the genre existed, though, so I certainly wasn't aiming to fit.


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

JZacharyPike said:


> That's interesting. I've always thought of it as a sort of catch all for any fantasy with references to (or awareness of) gaming trends. I've had a few readers identify my books as LitRPG or Pseudo-LitRPG, but I never tried to be in either genre. (Not that I have anything against them -- it's just not what I'm going for.)
> 
> I guess that's where the Pseudo-LitRPG label comes from. Although I'm not fond of the label, as it makes it sound like my books is a false form of something else.


I have made a lot of fans in the LitRPG community, although I don't write LitRPG. Some of them are LARPers and most are heavy-duty gamers, and they are big on consistent, logical worldbuilding. Also, God help you if your magic doesn't have hard rules.

I belong to a few LitRPG groups on FB, and some of them get gravely serious about this kind of stuff. They are gamers, and generally, they do not like having rules broken. _Deus ex machina _endings are verboten.

If you're writing hard fantasy or hard SF, you can likely cross over into this genre and get some new readers. Just don't call your work "LitRPG" if it's not. And again, make sure you're consistent.

Also, J. Zachary Pike, I loved _Orconomics_.


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## Kyle Alexander Romines (Aug 31, 2017)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'm a big fan of Joe Abercrombie, but also like the adventure style and the detective style, and I like lots of politics in my fantasy.


Are there any solid detective style fantasy books someone here can recommend? I've been kicking around a fantasy/mystery series in my head for a while, but I'd like to read some in the genre first to get a feel for how it's done.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Epic fantasy is not focused on the quest: that's Dungeons and Dragons. Epic fantasy is Homeric, i.e., it tells the founding myth of a civilisation, although not necessarily written in dactylic hexameter.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

I think that with epic fantasy, perhaps more so than with any other genre, you can pretty much write whatever you want, and as long as it's well written and engaging, it's going to sell. Provided you have a good cover and give it a nudge marketing-wise, of course.

Trends are less important than good characters, a killer story, and writing that grabs your attention and demands you turn the next page.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Epic fantasy is not focused on the quest: that's Dungeons and Dragons. Epic fantasy is Homeric, i.e., it tells the founding myth of a civilisation, although not necessarily written in dactylic hexameter.


Not any that I've ever read. Most epic fantasy books have nothing to do with "a founding myth of civilization". Almost all of them are based on a hero on a quest, again the ones I've read and are familiar with.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Lorri Moulton said:


> ame.
> 
> My fantasy/fairytale is not grimdark. It's a fairytale, so good will triumph eventually. It just takes the characters a while to get there.


I like good guys getting what they deserve. = )


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## Ryan W. Mueller (Jul 14, 2017)

In trade publishing, you see a lot of Grimdark. Sure, there are other types of epic fantasy, but I'm finding it harder and harder to discover books I enjoy.

In the self-publishing world, I'm finding a lot more of the kinds of stories I enjoy most. That is, I love authors who take the classic tropes of the genre and build on them to create exciting stories. I like the classic style of fantasy, but I prefer the writing style to be more modern.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Ryan W. Mueller said:


> In trade publishing, you see a lot of Grimdark. Sure, there are other types of epic fantasy, but I'm finding it harder and harder to discover books I enjoy.
> 
> In the self-publishing world, I'm finding a lot more of the kinds of stories I enjoy most. That is, I love authors who take the classic tropes of the genre and build on them to create exciting stories. I like the classic style of fantasy, but I prefer the writing style to be more modern.


I tend to agree with you! = )


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

When I think LitRPG I think something like James Hunter's Viridian Gate Online series: https://www.amazon.com/Viridian-Gate-Online-Cataclysm-Adventure-ebook/dp/B01MU0DYXW/

The character is literally uploaded into a video game, gets to choose his character, goes on quests, and occasionally checks in on his game status even though he's a real-world person. There are screenshots in the book of his player profile when he does it.

In terms of epic fantasy, I was at a conference a few weeks ago, asked an agent what the trends she's seeing in fantasy are and she cited epic fantasy as one and when I asked her to define what that meant to her she said a broad story that involves multiple points of view and issues that are world-impacting.


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## wilsonharp (Jun 5, 2012)

Kyle Alexander Romines said:


> Are there any solid detective style fantasy books someone here can recommend? I've been kicking around a fantasy/mystery series in my head for a while, but I'd like to read some in the genre first to get a feel for how it's done.


Might want to check out some of the Discworld books that deal with Vimes, in particular (City Watch books).


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## JZacharyPike (Sep 22, 2017)

Joseph Malik said:


> If you're writing hard fantasy or hard SF, you can likely cross over into this genre and get some new readers. Just don't call your work "LitRPG" if it's not. And again, make sure you're consistent.
> 
> Also, J. Zachary Pike, I loved _Orconomics_.


Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic. The word I've read says you should find your niche genre, but in my experience you put a book out and readers will tell you what sub-genre it is (or sub-sub-sub genre). That seems safer to me than risking the wrath of the hardcore genre fans with a mischaracterization.

And thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

Kyle Alexander Romines said:


> Are there any solid detective style fantasy books someone here can recommend? I've been kicking around a fantasy/mystery series in my head for a while, but I'd like to read some in the genre first to get a feel for how it's done.


You might try this: 

From my review of it: "I could almost hear Amra saying in a female Humphrey Bogart voice 'I knew he was trouble the moment he walked in'."


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> Same old boring-ass grimdark that's forced me to go back to late 90's and Early 2000's backlog plus pretty much just Brandon Sanderson for my fantasy needs.
> 
> Someday my favorite genre will be not-terrible...





AlecHutson said:


> I happen to agree with you. I think it's pretty incredible that trad keeps pumping out these grimdark / new weird books no one wants. Indies are absolutely cleaning up because you simply can't find debuts in the vein of Jordan / Sanderson / Rothfuss / Eddings anymore. As someone who watches the fantasy publishing scene pretty closely, I really find it mind-boggling.





Jim Johnson said:


> I'm liking a lot of the noblebright fantasy out there. CJ Brightley leading the charge. I'd say write the epic fantasy you're passionate about and don't worry much about whatever trend is popular with tradpub at the moment.


Yeah, I'm another one who's tired of the "life sucks, the good guys are chumps, and everybody dies except the people you want to die" school of fantasy.

There is some confusion out there about noblebright; it isn't all sparkly unicorns and happy perfect people being happy and perfect, and it definitely isn't just YA. Noblebright is about characters in difficult circumstances doing their best to do the right thing, and it's good that they care about doing what's right, and even when things go badly there's still hope. Here's an article from CJ Brightley's Noblebright website explaining the difference between noblebright and grimdark: http://www.noblebright.org/grimdark-vs-noblebright/

And one about what noblebright is and isn't: http://www.noblebright.org/noblebright-fantasy-an-overview/

I think a lot of readers, including me, are hungry for epic/high fantasy that isn't grim and depressing, that shows the good that exists in people and that that good is meaningful and worth something.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Joseph Malik said:


> LitRPG readers tend to really like portal fantasies, as well; the more realistic, the better. I got a great email from a reader who said that my fight scenes were hard to follow because I didn't keep track of hit points. You can't please everybody.


Damn you, I wanted that coffee!


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Kat_Merikan said:


> What would you say those are? Because it incorporates both computer games, table top, or even... being pulled into a book? Or does the last one not count?


Think of playing Dungeons and Dragons and then writing about your adventures! If you don't KNOW what D & D is, don't try and write LitRPG! lol


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Pandorra said:


> Think of playing Dungeons and Dragons and then writing about your adventures! If you don't KNOW what D & D is, don't try and write LitRPG! lol


Yeah, but that's the thing. The rules of an MMORPG and D&D are so vastly different, the story derived from each would be very different, but... both would be under the LitRPG umbrella?


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Pandorra said:


> Think of playing Dungeons and Dragons and then writing about your adventures! If you don't KNOW what D & D is, don't try and write LitRPG! lol


This is what I did in my fantasy novel. It's my homage to D&D. But I tried very hard to not make it feel gamey...so does that make it not LitRPG?


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

I've done well in fantasy romance. I love the genre because there is quite a variety within it (and I'm such a romantic).

My favorite thing is when fantasy manages to feel epic and intimate at the same time. I love Mercedes Lackey for that because she has such a big world and sometimes really dramatic dire stuff happens (oh god The Last Herald Mage Trilogy was like the Perfect Tearjerker for teenage me) but there is also just a lot of really comforting every day stuff. It feels grounded but also pleasantly fan-service-y. Very "shoujo manga" before I knew what that was. I probably dream of pleasing Mercedes Lackey fans more than anything else. Although I wouldn't call it a trend, there is definitely an audience for it. But they seem to definitely like the setting to stick to a traditional high/epic fantasy vibe.


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## Kyle Alexander Romines (Aug 31, 2017)

Kyra Halland said:


> You might try this:
> 
> From my review of it: "I could almost hear Amra saying in a female Humphrey Bogart voice 'I knew he was trouble the moment he walked in'."


Wow--that book looks great! Thank you so much for the recommendation. I will definitely be checking this out.



wilsonharp said:


> Might want to check out some of the Discworld books that deal with Vimes, in particular (City Watch books).


Thanks for the recommendation!


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Joseph Malik said:


> Also, God help you if your magic doesn't have hard rules.


That is not a lie my friend, when I told some family/friends I was writing an Epic Fantasy they practically threw the book at me and told me to make sure I was consistent with the rules. One group actually wanted to reenact my fight scenes on the tables..  (I almost didn't get away, it was scary!)

That said, I like RPG, but not LitRPG, I think someone said that its not very good as of yet, the authors are more gamers with some time on their hands then anything else and writing is different then DM'ing (DM=Dungeon master the narrator for the games)

I am huge fan of old school epic's, young, adventure, fun, keeping it not to dark but definitely actionable and I'm a sucker for happy endings. Though I did take a turn on the series I am writing in that the world conflict isn't something easily resolved. The MC won't be able to 'fix' the world and especially not all by herself.. I never thought that was very realistic, the act of rebuilding the world itself is always missing like 'ta-da the bad guys are gone so everything is good now, go home'. The conflict in Elera ranges through multiple books and will essentially be rebuilding a world that has been torn apart by the conflict(s) while they find a way to balance what's left. (Including a long term fight with the 'dark').


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Yeah, but that's the thing. The rules of an MMORPG and D&D are so vastly different, the story derived from each would be very different, but... both would be under the LitRPG umbrella?


You wouldn't believe how much D&D has evolved... but yes, absolutely, RPG games would fall under the same genre. The point here is to stick to the rules of the _type_ of RPG you are fashioning your writing after, if you get it wrong then its like Joseph pointed out, God save you, cuz the gamers won't.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Pandorra said:


> That is not a lie my friend, when I told some family/friends I was writing an Epic Fantasy they practically threw the book at me and told me to make sure I was consistent with the rules. One group actually wanted to reenact my fight scenes on the tables..  (I almost didn't get away, it was scary!)


There are two schools of thought when it comes to rules for magic in epic fantasy.

I'm of the opinion that rules make magic boring and more like a science.


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

Cassie Leigh said:


> In terms of epic fantasy, I was at a conference a few weeks ago, asked an agent what the trends she's seeing in fantasy are and she cited epic fantasy as one and when I asked her to define what that meant to her she said a broad story that involves multiple points of view and issues that are world-impacting.


This is interesting to me, because this is a fairly recent (and, IMO, wildly incorrect) assessment of what epic fantasy is. The determinant of epic fantasy has generally been that the character, or characters', actions have a world-changing effect. If you have a bunch of adventurers out just getting in adventures without really changing much in the grand scheme of things, you're writing high fantasy. If they change things -- overthrow the Dark Lord, destroy the Ring of Power, transform Coke into Pepsi throughout the kingdom, whatever -- then it's epic fantasy. If it's one character out there alone, and his or her actions change the world, then it's also epic fantasy.

Now, though, with the advent of ASOIAF, the return of LOTR, etc., there's an expectation that epic fantasy will have multiple viewpoints. This was never the deal. (Also, screw close third, but that's another argument for another day.)

Anyway, we took another look at the narrative in _Dragon's Trail_, and realized that, by current standards, it's more of a S&S (or even sword and planet) novel than an epic fantasy novel by the current expectations. So, we've shifted the marketing a little. Live and learn.

My thinking is to eventually write a series of spinoffs covering major series plot points from other characters' POVs and introducing their backstories a la _Ender's Shadow._ This has a secondary effect of preventing me from having to turn out books the size of car batteries. These, though, will probably also get occasionally dinged by readers who expect "epic fantasy" and say that the books are all too focused on one character. C'est la guerre.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

Kyle Alexander Romines said:


> Are there any solid detective style fantasy books someone here can recommend? I've been kicking around a fantasy/mystery series in my head for a while, but I'd like to read some in the genre first to get a feel for how it's done.


Mark Charan Newton has an epic fantasy/detective/mystery series with two books out already

Drakenfield and Retribution

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mark-Charan-Newton/e/B0035NEBA4/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

A lot of medieval historical mysteries sometimes have a bit of a fantasy feel as well.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Ted Cross said:


> This is what I did in my fantasy novel. It's my homage to D&D. But I tried very hard to not make it feel gamey...so does that make it not LitRPG?


That's hard to say without reading it but the point of LitRPG is to make it seem like exactly that, so you saying you made an effort to remove that element doesn't say good things.. lol
That, said, who knows.. did you stick to one set of hard rules based off of one 'type' of gaming?


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Mercedes Lackey BROKE me when I was a teen with the character death
> 
> But yes, I've been looking for M/M high fantasy to read, and there isn't all that much. There's lots of shifters, paranormal, but that's not what I'm looking for.


Ah Vanyel... How I do miss thee!


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Pandorra said:


> That's hard to say without reading it but the point of LitRPG is to make it seem like exactly that, so you saying you made an effort to remove that element doesn't say good things.. lol
> That, said, who knows.. did you stick to one set of hard rules based off of one 'type' of gaming?


I've been reading links from earlier posts, and I can now say that my books definitely don't fit. But they sure are defining it narrowly.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Ted Cross said:


> I've been reading links from earlier posts, and I can now say that my books definitely don't fit. But they sure are defining it narrowly.


This is why I can't figure out if I'm a LitRPG "fan" or not. Because I love things set in gamelike worlds, but not so much worlds which are actual games, and I'm not a stat fan at all (even in my gaming, stats fall into the "necessary evil" category).


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Pandorra said:


> That's hard to say without reading it but the point of LitRPG is to make it seem like exactly that, so you saying you made an effort to remove that element doesn't say good things.. lol
> That, said, who knows.. did you stick to one set of hard rules based off of one 'type' of gaming?


Agreed. If you aren't showing how the character is earing xp and skilling up, then it's very likely not LitRPG even if the story is about gaming.

Examples:
- Christie Golden's Warcraft books are about the characters in that world, told as if they were real from that character's perspective. That's not LitRPG even if the entire thing is about characters in a game. It's straight up fantasy, either sword & sorcery or epic.

-The cute book _Dungeon Born _by Dakota Krout is about a guy who dies and is reborn as a level 1 dungeon who has to defend himself against foes. He levels up and gains skills and uses that to improve his dungeon and add boss mobs. That is LitRPG.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> There are two schools of thought when it comes to rules for magic in epic fantasy.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that rules make magic boring and more like a science.


That's an interesting subject that could easily have a thread of its own.

I'm of the other school of thought. I'm not in favor of rules of RPG specificity, but I find a lot of my readers want to know how things work. I've also read commentary by people who worry that magic without rules becomes just a a way for the writer to keep tossing deus ex machina plot resolutions around. From that standpoint, it's particularly important for magic to have limits.

In a world in which magic is real, wouldn't it be a science? Wouldn't people study it and figure out how it works?


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> There are two schools of thought when it comes to rules for magic in epic fantasy.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that rules make magic boring and more like a science.


There are ALWAYS rules to magic, whether you realize it or not, otherwise it would be over in ten seconds or less. 'The mage breathed fire and they all died, war over' does not a good book, movie etc. make...

Also you have to pick a _type_ of magic, internal, external, elemental, blood magic, natural magic etc.. you can make up any kind of magic you want, but to say it has no rules would be.. well very incorrect.. lol


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Bill Hiatt said:


> In a world in which magic is real, wouldn't it be a science? Wouldn't people study it and figure out how it works?


Sure, if you write that kind of world.

Or perhaps it is controlled by capricious gods or ancient cults who care little for rules and men.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Pandorra said:


> There are ALWAYS rules to magic, whether you realize it or not, otherwise it would be over in ten seconds or less. 'The mage breathed fire and they all died, war over' does not a good book, movie etc. make...
> 
> Also you have to pick a _type_ of magic, internal, external, elemental, blood magic, natural magic etc.. you can make up any kind of magic you want, but to say it has no rules would be.. well very incorrect.. lol


You can write by those rules if you want to.

My only rule is that there are no rules. I discover my magic system as I write, and while I make an effort to keep it consistent within the story, that is not necessarily a requirement.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> You can write by those rules if you want to.
> 
> My only rule is that there are no rules. I discover my magic system as I write, and while I make an effort to keep it consistent within the story, that is not necessarily a requirement.


There are still rules. Maybe we should define that term by itself because we have to put limits on the magic we create, we all do it. Our rules may vary with style, preference etc but that doesn't mean there are no rules.


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## JZacharyPike (Sep 22, 2017)

Bill Hiatt said:


> In a world in which magic is real, wouldn't it be a science? Wouldn't people study it and figure out how it works?


Yeah, but in a book about science, wouldn't people discover new things? Wouldn't old assumptions be overturned? Wouldn't scientific knowledge be injected as its needed? And wouldn't all of these revelations convenient to the a reader unfamiliar with those scientific principles?

I'm all for consistency, but narrative trumps systems.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Pandorra said:


> There are still rules. Maybe we should define that term by itself because we have to put limits on the magic we create, we all do it. Our rules may vary with style, preference etc but that doesn't mean there are no rules.


What I mean is that I don't consider magic a WMD that if not contained will spiral out of control and obliterate the plot, story, and characters.

It is simply another facet of the world that I discover as I write. I don't start out with a hard set of rules that governs where I can go and what I can do.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> What I mean is that I don't consider magic a WMD that if not contained will spiral out of control and obliterate the plot, story, and characters.
> 
> It is simply another facet of the world that I discover as I write. I don't start out with a hard set of rules that governs where I can go and what I can do.


Nor do I, but I do shape them as I move into the story. I actually have a broad range of magics in the series I am writing, half the point of the books is old magic dying and fighting to become relevant again while new types are created and it has several different types of magic that obviously do different things. I didn't want the structure to be so rigid either 'Elemental Mage A vs Elemental Mage B' or 'blood magic vs natural magic' etc. I wrote it so you have multiple types working with, or conflicting with, each other. But each set has their own limits, they can't just run off and do anything they want, they have rules.. granted they try to break them lol .. another part of the story, but yea .. there are rules dammit!


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Going back to page 1... M/M fantasy? Hmm.

I'm hetero as heck but have written bi-erotica so convincing readers don't know what I am. And Horror/Fantasy were my fist loves.

Interesting. I need to give this some thought...


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Laran Mithras said:


> Going back to page 1... M/M fantasy? Hmm.
> 
> I'm hetero as heck but have written bi-erotica so convincing readers don't know what I am. And Horror/Fantasy were my fist loves.
> 
> Interesting. I need to give this some thought...


I actually love a well written m/m fantasy, I don't go looking for it but it doesn't turn me off a book at all.. as long as the guys aren't written as the stereotypical 'feminine' type. Lynn Flewelling is the only Epic fantasy author I have seen try that and he did pretty well with it. I am actually surprised there aren't more.

What I would really love to see is a m/f/m but I think I am SoL unless I write it myself.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> Going back to page 1... M/M fantasy? Hmm.
> 
> I'm hetero as heck but have written bi-erotica so convincing readers don't know what I am. And Horror/Fantasy were my fist loves.
> 
> Interesting. I need to give this some thought...


Yeah, I want to have M/M, a strong love story, heavy sex content, as well as an intense epic plot. It seems like it's hard to get all of those in one. It's either erotic, but shallow plot, very plotty but mellow, epic and sexy, but not M/M


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't think anyone has mentioned dragons yet. They're making (another) comeback.

Coming of age has always been popular. I like to read it. What I write though is noblebright epic fantasy with an adult hero. This seems to work pretty well. There's also trad pub success stories here too. David Eddings is famous for the Belgariad - but The Elenium series with an adult MC did pretty well too. Not sure if an adult epic fantasy hero is an indie trend though.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Jack Krenneck said:


> I don't think anyone has mentioned dragons yet. They're making (another) comeback.


Dragons are super popular in M/M ... and they're all mpreg ;(


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

Jack Krenneck said:


> Not sure if an adult epic fantasy hero is an indie trend though.


Dunno about a trend, but I wrote one and it did very well. I hope the rest of the series continues to do so. I have received a lot of nice messages and reviews saying how great it is to have an adult protagonist facing grown-up issues in a fantasy setting. I'm sure there will always be a crowd for Lost Prince stories and schoolkids learning that "magic is within us all!" but there appears to be a readership out there who is weary of it. Trope Fatigue: the struggle is real.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Yeah, I want to have M/M, a strong love story, heavy sex content, as well as an intense epic plot. It seems like it's hard to get all of those in one. It's either erotic, but shallow plot, very plotty but mellow, epic and sexy, but not M/M


I'm not sure how explicit a fantasy book can get without finding complaints. All of my fantasies are heavy plot, but mixed with light romance and minimally described sexual encounters.

Since I haven't read any current fantasy except for Jordan/Sanderson, I really don't have a grasp on how far sexual content can fly in a fantasy. And no, I don't write feminized gays. I know some do in a humorous setting, but I try to steer clear of comedy.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> I'm not sure how explicit a fantasy book can get without finding complaints.


I don't mind. No one book is for everyone. Sometimes readers don't know they want something until they get it


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Kat_Merikan said:


> I don't mind. No one book is for everyone. Sometimes readers don't know they want something until they get it


LOL! I had a sudden vision of you shoving broccoli down your readers throats yelling 'You WILL like this!'


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Nah, I can just wait for that reader who loves broccoli  I can even deep fry it for them. (Now the metaphors are losing even me.)


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

Pandorra said:


> I had a sudden vision of you shoving broccoli down your readers throats yelling 'You WILL like this!'


It's kinda the same thing.

So. Many. Shifters. In my genre.

EDIT: And I want to be clear: I'm not denigrating anyone's art, here. It's just that "Military Fantasy" is jam-packed with shifter stories and shirtless romances.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

How much sex can a fantasy have? As much as a romance? I know full well the distinction between erotica and romance, but does the fantasy genre *expect* there to be less sex?

I think we all also know that general romance has very specific no=nos that can't be crossed. What's the line in fantasy? Or is it really that much of an open field?


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> How much sex can a fantasy have? As much as a romance? I know full well the distinction between erotica and romance, but does the fantasy genre *expect* there to be less sex?
> 
> I think we all also know that general romance has very specific no=nos that can't be crossed. What's the line in fantasy? Or is it really that much of an open field?


IMO a book can be a crossover between the two any way you like. If you do a fantasy romance, the characters need to end up together and can't die (I know some people believe in other romance rules, but I don't in my romances, so that's what I go by), and if you do a fantasy book with romantic elements, then anything goes. In a fantasy romance, I'd weave the romance and the fantasy plot 50/50.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Laran Mithras said:


> How much sex can a fantasy have? As much as a romance? I know full well the distinction between erotica and romance, but does the fantasy genre *expect* there to be less sex?
> 
> I think we all also know that general romance has very specific no=nos that can't be crossed. What's the line in fantasy? Or is it really that much of an open field?


It's defined by the tone of the book itself. If you are writing gritty, bloody, war, heavy conflict etc throw in sex and heck yea, get dirty, if your writing very young, simple or 'nice' or idealistic life lessons however.. not so much.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Pandorra said:


> It's defined by the tone of the book itself. If you are writing gritty, bloody, war, heavy conflict etc throw in sex and heck yea, get dirty, if your writing very young, simple or 'nice' life lessons however.. not so much.


Very good point.


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Grace Draven writes very steamy fantasy romance and I did see one or two reviews that dinged her on having multiple sex scenes when they would have preferred her to stick more to the fantasy story. So it may be that you lose some readers who lean more towards fantasy when you start throwing in too much steamy sex. But if you are consistent, then readers who like your thing will migrate to your work.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Reading sex scenes in epic fantasy is liking watching my friends get naked. 

Sure, I know they have sex, and I bet they enjoy it, but I don't want to see it happen.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

C. Gold said:


> Grace Draven writes very steamy fantasy romance and I did see one or two reviews that dinged her on having multiple sex scenes when they would have preferred her to stick more to the fantasy story. So it may be that you lose some readers who lean more towards fantasy when you start throwing in too much steamy sex. But if you are consistent, then readers who like your thing will migrate to your work.


As in all genres. 

Readers can be a fickle lot with many expectations.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> Reading sex scenes in epic fantasy is liking watching my friends get naked.
> 
> Sure, I know they have sex, and I bet they enjoy it, but I don't want to see it happen.


I haven't ever really seen it done, at least not graphically. there was one book can't remember the name but the female MC would get done fighting and jump someone afterwards.. but again it wasn't detailed or anything just .. gritty.. lol
Flewelling implies a LOT but doesn't _say_ much, well ok hmm kinda.. most of the rest is non sexual with lots of tension (if there is romance at all) though I am sure there is a market for it.. somewhere..


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Pandorra said:


> I haven't ever really seen it done, at least not graphically. there was one book can't remember the name but the female MC would get done fighting and jump someone afterwards.. but again it wasn't detailed or anything just .. gritty.. lol
> Flewelling implies a LOT but doesn't _say_ much, well ok hmm kinda.. most of the rest is non sexual with lots of tension (if there is romance at all) though I am sure there is a market for it.. somewhere..


I wrote a grittier book about a sorceress a couple years back. Has some very strong sexual elements in it, including a partial FMF. Never had complaint. But more importantly, never had much sales.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Kyra Halland said:


> You might try this:
> 
> From my review of it: "I could almost hear Amra saying in a female Humphrey Bogart voice 'I knew he was trouble the moment he walked in'."


Great recommendation. This is one of the best sword and sorcery fantasies I've read, and it won Mark Lawrence's inaugural 'Self Published Fantasy Blog Off'.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Laran Mithras said:


> I'm hetero as heck but have written bi-erotica so convincing readers don't know what I am. And Horror/Fantasy were my* fist loves*.


tee-hee


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Bill Hiatt said:


> That's an interesting subject that could easily have a thread of its own.
> 
> I'm of the other school of thought. I'm not in favor of rules of RPG specificity, but I find a lot of my readers want to know how things work. I've also read commentary by people who worry that magic without rules becomes just a a way for the writer to keep tossing deus ex machina plot resolutions around. From that standpoint, it's particularly important for magic to have limits.
> 
> In a world in which magic is real, wouldn't it be a science? Wouldn't people study it and figure out how it works?


For me, fantasy is trying to evoke a sense of wonder, and infusing whatever magic you have with mystery (about what it can do, where it comes from) is a big part of that. I respect the heck out of Brandon Sanderson, but the Mistborn books didn't work for me because his magic system was just too regimented and scientific. It actually felt like a video game when the characters were using magic, and that there was someone mashing a controller somewhere to combine elements and send them flying around the rooms during the fight scenes.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Epic fantasy is not focused on the quest: that's Dungeons and Dragons.


...

...

As an avid player, I want to assure you that raucous laughter coming from me right now is not meant as an insult to you.

In other news: No. No it's not.

The published material for D&D may necessarily focus on the adventure because it needs to be designed to be played by any characters, but 1) Tabletop game books are not a fiction genre and 2) Actual games usually focus on the characters' action over the quest because... well that quest is highly unlikely to be completed once the PCs realize they can take over a medium city, pick fights with random people, or go punch their own god.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

To get back on topic - yes, LitRPG is selling well now, but I wouldn't attempt it unless you are really steeped in its tropes (from my reading of reviews, more than in other sub-genres LitRPG readers demand very specific things) and enmeshed in the very active community. For every book that rises into the top 1k, I'm sure there are a dozen that never get more than a few reviews. 

I guess the point I'd just like to re-emphasize is that - maybe more than in other genres - epic / high fantasy doesn't follow 'trends'. The tried and true stories are still incredibly popular - and we as indie authors are lucky because traditional publishing basically stopped publishing debut books that hearken back to the incredibly popular authors of yesteryear (Jordan / Tolkien / Goodkind / Eddings - I would even contend that Sanderson / Rothfuss type (new) writers are not getting much attention these days). I keep track of Goodreads ratings (an excellent metric for seeing what's being read) and over the last few years indie epic / high fantasy is absolutely smashing it when compared to trad releases. (There are exceptions, of course, like Kings of the Wyld - great book). A lot of the big debuts this year in trad pub have lowered their Kindle prices permanently to 4.99 - I think because they know they're losing this battle.  

Basically, write what you love and are familiar with. It's my opinion that in fantasy - more so than in many other genres, maybe - that's a better recipe for success than trying to ride a trend.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Vaalingrade said:


> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

I agree with the proposition that fantasy, or at least epic fantasy, allows more freedom to write away from trends. 

I do find it interesting to study the different trends though. Another one (for indies) is the coming of age story where the MC becomes both a warrior and a magic user. This seems to be gaining a lot of traction.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Lorri Moulton said:


> If fantasy is like sci-fi, I think Babylon 5 is the best. Mostly action, a little romance...but it's the kind of love, where someone would come back from the dead to be with that person.


Kind of .. it really doesn't focus on the romance like most genres do, its more implied than anything unless we are talking soul-bonds or something like Mercedes Lackey does.. Ah, but I have seen a lot of epic fantasy where the 'evil' was trying to do just that.. destroy his soul, his body, children and the world to bring back the lost love that he prbly killed in the first place.  

Classic Epic fantasy.. lol

ETA: Unrequited love does well in epics as well.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

P.J. Post said:


> I thought litRPG was just MMORPG made real drama. No?


*Cough* _mmo_rpg is massively multiplayer online (MMO), _rpg_ is role playing game.

That said most LITrpg is usually board rpg not mmo. The mmo stuff can be turned into it but its just a matter of preference.

(Yes, I am a geek)


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

P.J. Post said:


> I thought litRPG was just MMORPG made real drama. No?


Not necessarily.

So I'm playing World of Warcraft on Friday (raid) night, and I'm mashing the 3 button which is weak after years of hurling fireball, when I spill a drop of water on that key right before sending another fireball in the demon's face. Suddenly, I'm sucked into the game and I am my mage, frantically dodging the green pool of fel slime and kiting with a scorch spell while shifting to the demon's backside so I can pop all my cooldowns and send a fireball, pyroblast combo, finishing him off. Now I have a problem - I'm stuck in a video game and I have to solve the puzzle in order to get out. This can become quite Tron-like where I'm saving inhabitants, defeating evil, and solving the mystery. That's not LitRPG, that's basically fantasy story telling even though I am aware I am inside a game. If I was more concerned about leveling up and gaining more skills, that would be more LitRPG (or what those readers like). Since my mage is max level, about all I'd have to worry about is farming rep to get gear upgrades and that's a rather boring story!


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

C. Gold said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> So I'm playing World of Warcraft on Friday (raid) night, and I'm mashing the 3 button which is weak after years of hurling fireball, when I spill a drop of water on that key right before sending another fireball in the demon's face. Suddenly, I'm sucked into the game and I am my mage, frantically dodging the green pool of fel slime and kiting with a scorch spell while shifting to the demon's backside so I can pop all my cooldowns and send a fireball, pyroblast combo, finishing him off. Now I have a problem - I'm stuck in a video game and I have to solve the puzzle in order to get out. This can become quite Tron-like where I'm saving inhabitants, defeating evil, and solving the mystery. That's not LitRPG, that's basically fantasy story telling even though I am aware I am inside a game. If I was more concerned about leveling up and gaining more skills, that would be more LitRPG (or what those readers like). Since my mage is max level, about all I'd have to worry about is farming rep to get gear upgrades and that's a rather boring story!


I HATE AoE spells, they get me every time, I _almost _switched to a pally healer just to have a little more durability then cloth..(Ducking head and leaving the room) This conversation is bad for me!


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Pandorra said:


> I HATE AoE spells, they get me every time, I _almost _switched to a pally healer just to have a little more durability then cloth..(Ducking head and leaving the room) This conversation is bad for me!


And there's the flip side of ' MMORPG made real drama'  
The I'm so made I smashed my keyboard against the wall and rage quit the game and got drunk and got into a bar fight and wound up in jail... story.


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

I can't leave this thread without giving a shout to Katika Schneider's Devotion. Really 90's-esque epic fantasy, definitely noble bright. One of my faves. 

I don't like grimdark but damn, Lawrence is a true master. His prose hooked me and I somehow fell in love with Jorg even while he was nailing babies to crosses. (I don't think he actually did that, but the fact I don't know for sure tells you how awful he was). I'm a horrible person.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Jack Krenneck said:


> I agree with the proposition that fantasy, or at least epic fantasy, allows more freedom to write away from trends.
> 
> I do find it interesting to study the different trends though. Another one (for indies) is the coming of age story where the MC becomes both a warrior and a magic user. This seems to be gaining a lot of traction.


My current series is in this vein = )


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

LOL.. I would hate to be the designer on those.. gamers are SERIOUS armor freaks and would want it to be very specific.


TY Herefor, I don't read them, I may grind to level my alt in a game but no way I am reading all that nit and grit in a book.. The Comic-con's are usually where I get my information on obscure stuff like that and there were a wide range in SD's this year doing mostly the board LITrpg's .. but with furries running around, I didn't stay long. I also have several friends who want to write them based off of their own board games, this is the first time I heard it was MMO based, but that's even worse than I thought.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2017)

Vaalingrade said:


> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

FAQ:

Q: Why would anyone ever play Pun-Pun?

A: I have no clue. I don't think it would be much fun honestly. Pun-Pun was never created with the intention of being played, and any game that allows a Pun-Pun character will quickly degenerate from there.

Pun-Pun is a character optimization build, more of a thought exercise than anything else. He demonstrates the limits that can be achieved within the rules as written and is not an actual PC Build for player use.

Never under estimate the mechanic nerds. In general for people that can't translate that: It's basically Superman Prime or Yaweh/God of your universe starting out as Luke Skywalker then becoming not only a jedi but the actual Force itself before meeting Yoda.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

As far as making money in LitRPG goes. It's becoming increasingly difficult. There was actually a thread here about that not too long ago.

LitRPG has relatively small number of fans when compared to bigger genres. It's not a goldmine.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Yeah, I want to have M/M, a strong love story, heavy sex content, as well as an intense epic plot. It seems like it's hard to get all of those in one. It's either erotic, but shallow plot, very plotty but mellow, epic and sexy, but not M/M


Kat, you have exposure, a following, great covers, and write M/M. Seems you're suited for M/M fantasy, though your books are contemporary settings. What's stopping you?


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

Pandorra said:


> I actually love a well written m/m fantasy, I don't go looking for it but it doesn't turn me off a book at all.. as long as the guys aren't written as the stereotypical 'feminine' type. Lynn Flewelling is the only Epic fantasy author I have seen try that and he did pretty well with it. I am actually surprised there aren't more.
> 
> What I would really love to see is a m/f/m but I think I am SoL unless I write it myself.


Lynn's a woman


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> Kat, you have exposure, a following, great covers, and write M/M. Seems you're suited for M/M fantasy, though your books are contemporary settings. What's stopping you?


Time  This year I started a big paranormal series, and that's doing great, which is making me more confident about my following being more about voice than sub-genre of MM (since a historical did well too). But there's only so much I can write in a month. I'm gathering ideas for a fantasy book (or series hopefully), but that won't be sooner than next year. I won't be starting until the paranormal series is finished, so the series aren't spread too thinly.

I started the topic because I'm curious if those who are more in the fantasy genre see any trends, and I've already learned, because I've never heard of noblebright before


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Vaalingrade said:


> As an avid player, I want to assure you that raucous laughter coming from me right now is not meant as an insult to you.


My DM days go back to the early 1980s using the original Dungeons and Dragons. I have not played it in decades, but I continue to have a fine line in British sarcasm, which I first developed in the same era. I am aware that British sarcasm is seldom allowed to book a transatlantic flight.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Time


Ah, yeah, that pretty much says it all. A constricting schedule and planned books can leave a lot of ideas on back burners. I have one of those.

But time I do have. My last scheduled book should be done by next week. I'll have to run what I have in mind past my editor. Of course, my last couple of fantasies were dismal. My first two were fairly spectacular. When I tried erotic fantasy (my fourth attempt at fantasy), it flopped. Likely the cover. 5th - 8th attempts, eh. But by that time, the fantasy market was so saturated even my free book doesn't show up on the free lists. 

I have a cover designed and a penname picked for the effort. My erotica readers won't appreciate a M/M fantasy.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

One of the two WIPs I'm working on is the first book in a traditional fantasy trilogy. Interesting reading this thread. I would put my book in epic or high or quest fantasy, also sword and sorcery. I'm rather amused at the hard lines between the semantics that some people draw.

LoTR, the Belgariad and Elenium, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books, CJ Cherryh's fantasies, Robert Jordon (whose 12-book forest killer should have finished in 6 books) are my influences. Early in my life, I also read such works as Gormenghast, The Well at the World's End and Lord Dunsany's King of Elfland's Daughter. I haven't read GRRM or seen a single episode of GoT.

My Telepathic Clans series, which could be classified as UF, contemporary Sci-fi, or some other things has a well-defined appendix of powers (Gifts) at the end of each book. When I introduce a character, I give him or her certain Gifts. That defines what they can do in a particular situation. Some of the fun is figuring out how a character can use their particular Gifts to solve a problem, escape from somewhere, or overcome a foe.

I think my fantasy book might be considered noblebright, and while my characters are definitely sexual, it's all behind closed doors. There are romances going on, but it's not a romance. We'll see how it's received when it's published.


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## A.M. Manay (Sep 29, 2017)

Pandorra said:


> It's really hard to write an epic fantasy with older people .. lol usually the MC and his friends are learning life lessons and discovering something new about themselves and the world around them so you put a middle aged anyone in there and your stuck asking 'why now?'
> 
> Sanderson, Jordan, Rothfuss they aren't meant to be YA but a lot of people don't even notice authors such as Mercedes Lackey or Tamora Pierce, who are incredible YA authors.. Kristen Britain used to be there with them but she killed me with her Green Rider series when she temporarily flipped it too far forward for my taste, Sanderson too, once the guns come in, I go out.. hmm Lynn Flewelling wrote a great series, the2 MC's are gay (can I say that? no offense I swear I just don't know the correct term anymore lol) but its very tastefully done and I love the books, the Warded man series by Peter V Brett.. and I am currently trying to read Kel Kade's 3rd book in the Kings Dark Tidings series, the first two were epic the last just came out at over 2000 pages and I haven't been able to sit down to read it. There are just so many its hard to keep track ..


Yeah, the self-discovery, coming-of-age type stuff seems to make a lot more sense for a teenager or young adult than for someone older. It's easier to make it seem natural in the story, at any rate. But I think that those of us who are older still really identify with those themes, which is why they remain so popular. Figuring out how to make your way in a dangerous world is something we all have experience with. Sometimes I have trouble identifying where the line is between YA and a book that just happens to have a teenage protagonist. Do you know what I mean?


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

I'm writing something based on the JRPG structure, but not as a litRPG, so I'm not sure where that will fit into genre continuity. It's closest to an epic fantasy, but wouldn't quite fit into that genre either. How does one categorize the standard JPRG which features an upbeat ensemble mashup featuring mechs, steam engines,psychics, wuxia, mages, and giant monsters? 

I'm writing this on the theory that if Final Fantasy still has a market after all these years, they must be doing something right, so I'm stealing from them.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

A.M. Manay said:


> Yeah, the self-discovery, coming-of-age type stuff seems to make a lot more sense for a teenager or young adult than for someone older. It's easier to make it seem natural in the story, at any rate. But I think that those of us who are older still really identify with those themes, which is why they remain so popular. Figuring out how to make your way in a dangerous world is something we all have experience with. Sometimes I have trouble identifying where the line is between YA and a book that just happens to have a teenage protagonist. Do you know what I mean?


It's the difference in the language used by the author. I often write young characters, but use adult language (not necessarily in dialog). The themes are those that appeal to an older audience. To me, YA writing includes simplified language and sentence structures, immature themes, and way too much angst.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

A.M. Manay said:


> Yeah, the self-discovery, coming-of-age type stuff seems to make a lot more sense for a teenager or young adult than for someone older. It's easier to make it seem natural in the story, at any rate. But I think that those of us who are older still really identify with those themes, which is why they remain so popular. Figuring out how to make your way in a dangerous world is something we all have experience with. Sometimes I have trouble identifying where the line is between YA and a book that just happens to have a teenage protagonist. Do you know what I mean?


I get what you mean. I am frequently surprised to discover books I love are considered YA.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

As far back as I've read, and as best as I understand it, fantasy has always had a YA component to varying degrees. Since Harry Potter, YA fantasy has again split itself into its own genre, leaving adult fantasy to wander its own way, and leaving the fans of the more fun, lighter toned fantasy to seek refuge among the YA books. However, this also appears to have restricted the nature of YA fantasy. The general fantasy stories aimed at younger folks hadn't needed to conform strictly to YA guidelines, so they had more variation in subject and theme, but now that they're explicitly YA in YA brands, those stories need to pass a tighter muster.


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

Glory Road, Three Hearts and Three Lions, The Chronicles of Amber, The Conan series, Magic Kingdom for Sale, The Princess Bride . . . a lot of classic fantasy centers on adult characters. I would argue that YA protagonists are a modern expectation. Not a modern invention, but the expectation that a fantasy hero is going to be twelve years old seems fairly new.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I don't see why an older person (early 20s to late 30s and beyond) couldn't be the MC in a fantasy. People are always having to deal with challenges that make them rethink how they want to spend their lives. Divorce, illness, career changes, etc. can make a person re-examine what's important and their place in the world.
> 
> Look at Aragorn in LOTR. He was hardly a teenager, but I thought his struggle to live up to what was expected of him, contrasted with the legacy of his ancestor, was one of the best parts of the story.


Absolutely.

To me, the difference is that YA, in addition to just having a young protagonist, has a younger voice and deals with issues faced by young people just coming out of childhood or verging on adulthood. A book can have a young protagonist and still have a more mature voice and deal with more mature/adult issues; that book would not be YA in spite of the age of the protagonist.

But also, there absolutely are many conflicts faced by people in their late 20s, 30s, and even beyond that would make for good stories. In one of my books, the two main characters are in their early 40s and suddenly facing the loss of their long-established roles and positions in life (due to the machinations of a mad sorcerer). These are the kinds of fantasies I prefer to read, with adult characters who are established in their adult lives and then have something happen to upend their roles and identities. This can be even more conflict-filled and dramatic than a teenager coming-of-age story.

(I was a teenager once, long ago, and I've raised two teenagers, and I love that age group, but I'm not especially interested in reading or writing about teenage stuff.)


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I don't see why an older person (early 20s to late 30s and beyond) couldn't be the MC in a fantasy. People are always having to deal with challenges that make them rethink how they want to spend their lives. Divorce, illness, career changes, etc. can make a person re-examine what's important and their place in the world.
> 
> Look at Aragorn in LOTR. He was hardly a teenager, but I thought his struggle to live up to what was expected of him, contrasted with the legacy of his ancestor, was one of the best parts of the story.


Aragorn was 88 in the LOTR books! 

He's a pureblood numenorian.Their long lives were a reward for their fathers' assistance in the fight against Morgoth.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

Lorri Moulton said:


> That sounds interesting! Is the book in your signature?


Source-Breaker, yes.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

I believe most of David Gemmel's military fantasy featured older MCs - often with white hair.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Joseph Malik said:


> Glory Road, Three Hearts and Three Lions, The Chronicles of Amber, The Conan series, Magic Kingdom for Sale, The Princess Bride . . . a lot of classic fantasy centers on adult characters. I would argue that YA protagonists are a modern expectation. Not a modern invention, but the expectation that a fantasy hero is going to be twelve years old seems fairly new.


The Chronicles of Narnia
A Wizard of Earthsea
The Chronicles of Prydain
A Wrinkle in Time
The Dark is Rising

Kathry Kurtz talks about the beginning of the adult fantasy market in one of her books, starting with her Deryni series (1970). Before then, the book market was more generally aimed towards YA and children. (Take a look at Goodreads.) That doesn't mean that there were no fantasies published aimed at adults. Those stories were usually published in magazines. With the advent of 1970's, the fantasy genre absolutely exploded. It's in that decade that you get many magazine published stories bound up and republished as novels. (Conans, Fafhr and Gray Mouser, Amber, etc.) However, as the 70's progressed into the 80's, publishers found that older kids, teenagers and 20-something boys bought a lot of books, so the increasingly corporatized publishers skewed their offerings more towards those demographics as time went by, until you hit the early 90's, where everything seemed to be about some prince or wronged lord. That's simplifying it, of course.

The TLR is that its complicated.


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

Laran Mithras said:


> I believe most of David Gemmel's military fantasy featured older MCs - often with white hair.


I think Druss was 60 or 65. Waylander was pretty long in the tooth as well.


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## A.M. Manay (Sep 29, 2017)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I don't see why an older person (early 20s to late 30s and beyond) couldn't be the MC in a fantasy. People are always having to deal with challenges that make them rethink how they want to spend their lives. Divorce, illness, career changes, etc. can make a person re-examine what's important and their place in the world.
> 
> Look at Aragorn in LOTR. He was hardly a teenager, but I thought his struggle to live up to what was expected of him, contrasted with the legacy of his ancestor, was one of the best parts of the story.


Oh, totally. I just think that sort of plot and characterization sometimes requires more thought to put together than one where the protagonist is younger and their needing to learn about the world and themselves is taken as a given.


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## Kay7979 (Aug 20, 2016)

When I started my series, I was encouraged to hear that many readers read YA books because YA novels tend to have a lighter, more upbeat tone. If there is such a thing as YA for adults, that's what I'm aiming for. 

My main character is in her early twenties, and in the opening of book one she's about to take over the family jewelry store. She has moments of self-doubt as we all do, but she's pretty well-adjusted. I'm bored with clichéd MCs that are misfits and loners, so Lana has a good relationship with her parents, has friends her own age, and enjoys having coffee and swapping novels with her elderly landlady. Supporting characters are all adults, with the exception of two teenage boys turned into giant, talking rats that Lana meets after crossing through a portal to the gnome world. My readership is generally adults, many in the 45-65 age group, but I've had readers as young as ten, and I'm really pleased that the series appeals to a wide age range.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Kay7979 said:


> My main character is in her early twenties, and in the opening of book one she's about to take over the family jewelry store. She has moments of self-doubt as we all do, but she's pretty well-adjusted. *I'm bored with clichéd MCs that are misfits and loners*, so Lana has a good relationship with her parents, has friends her own age, and enjoys having coffee and swapping novels with her elderly landlady.


Much applause.


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## gilesxbecker (Mar 20, 2017)

Excellent discussion here --- I am learning a lot.

I too am fed up with grimdark because they are so predictable. Characters will be shallow failures, the irony will be laid on thick, everything comes to naught etc. Whenever a character starts figuring out a way to deal with a situation I say to myself "It will fail and come to nothing" and sure enough.

Also grimdark seems to have only one emotional note, a sort of whining tone. No variation. No great griefs, no love passions, no profound anger, etc. etc. 

the term 'noblebright ' is new to me and the essay by CJ Brightly is very good indeed. Too bad about the term 'noblebright' because it brings up visions of damsels in gauzy attire, Skittles, purple mylar wigs and so on. However, it will have to do for the nonce. 

A big factor is the author's ability to envision and create a character with brains, assertiveness and field expedience. It is hard to do because one is surrounded by the grimdark literature which is not only in epic fantasy but in literary fiction in general. Kids in high school English classes are presented with all sorts of grimdark books to read. So to buck the trend and go back and re-discover those writerly skills, tools and methods of creating a character you really want to spend time with, is itself an epic journey of rediscovery. 

All he/she has to be is sort of normal! 

I think my character in Weaponsmaker is 'noblebright' at any rate he tries to do the right thing against great odds. So Perhaps I had better go back to my keywords and put in 'noblebright'. There's an idea.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Vaalingrade said:


> I know it's sacrilege to say here, but sales don't mean quality especially in books where there's a lot of follow the leader and prestige buying of crtically proclaimed works. And frankly critics heavily favor cynicism and wangst.


I love your word wangst! Your post is so true!


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Jim Johnson said:


> I'm liking a lot of the noblebright fantasy out there. CJ Brightley leading the charge. I'd say write the epic fantasy you're passionate about and don't worry much about whatever trend is popular with tradpub at the moment.


That's what I am doing. I'm pounding away at book 3 of The Saga of the Dragon Born. It will be a 4 book series. My sales are really dismal, but I just love this series. I thought it would be for a good market, epic fantasy for women. The two reviews I have of book one loved it, but even with ads nothing happening. After this I have to try again to figure out a type of book I'd like to write that would actually sell.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

gilesxbecker said:


> the term 'noblebright ' is new to me and the essay by CJ Brightly is very good indeed. Too bad about the term 'noblebright' because it brings up visions of damsels in gauzy attire, Skittles, purple mylar wigs and so on. However, it will have to do for the nonce.


To me, it brings up visions of paladins and gold dragons. But hey, I never say no to Skittles.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Jim Johnson said:


> _If there is a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, you must be the one to write it_. -- Toni Morrison


And you write it, and it gets good reviews from knowledgeable reviewers, reaches #1 on free sf but still does not bring in any money. So I have to say, this is not advice that works for everyone. Yeah, I am completely proud of my books. They are above the curve in quality, but jilly-jello I'd like to earn some money with my writing. I'm frustrated and discouraged.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Puddleduck said:


> I keep seeing LitRPG talked about. Can anyone point me to a detailed description of what that actually is?
> 
> I've never been able to get very into epic fantasy, but I think it's partly because everywhere I look, it's all depressing with no heroes and everyone doing awful things. Grimdark, in other words. I'd love some recs for uplifting epic fantasy stories with no/few character deaths and happy endings.
> 
> (I've read LOTR, of course, but not a whole lot of epic fantasy beyond that. Although I've bought most of Sanderson's books and haven't gotten to his epic fantasies yet.)


That's what I write.Characters do not die off every second, and though the ending of Foreshadow seems dark, just read The Contending and know that effort saved the day. Struggling and succeeding in a hard world through moral and ethical behavior is what I write about.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

JZacharyPike said:


> Yeah, but in a book about science, wouldn't people discover new things? Wouldn't old assumptions be overturned? Wouldn't scientific knowledge be injected as its needed? And wouldn't all of these revelations convenient to the a reader unfamiliar with those scientific principles?
> 
> I'm all for consistency, but narrative trumps systems.


No because of the world view. I've based my magical system for my epic fantasy series on the beliefs of the Celts of the British Isles. They believed magic was possible because it was the work of the gods. If you were a descendant of a god you could work magic because you had magical Talent you inherited from the god. Further, the gods can allow the magic of a human to work or not. Magic fails because the gods make it fail. However, gods can't just make magic happen. They have to have a human agency for the magic to happen in the human world. So they need the humans who have the talent to do the magic to make magic, but humans can refuse to do the magic that the gods want. The wellspring of the magic is the gods, so every time a human does a spell, the spell becomes stronger, that is, more reliable and effective. So old spells that are done a lot are enormously powerful. A person with little Talent can do them and they will work because so many other humans with Talent have done them. So, there isn't much to figure out, just do what the gods want and have the Talent to do it, and your magic will work.


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## gilesxbecker (Mar 20, 2017)

CynthiaClay said:


> That's what I write.Characters do not die off every second, and though the ending of Foreshadow seems dark, just read The Contending and know that effort saved the day. Struggling and succeeding in a hard world through moral and ethical behavior is what I write about.


I just went there and it looks very good. You have a quality to your voice that has an ancient epic or fairy-tale quality. Don't be discouraged! I am going to order it and give you a review. You never know what will happen with a book. I think Bridges of Madison County languished for more than a year and then suddenly took off.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

CynthiaClay said:


> That's what I write.Characters do not die off every second, and though the ending of Foreshadow seems dark, just read The Contending and know that effort saved the day. Struggling and succeeding in a hard world through moral and ethical behavior is what I write about.


What are you doing to promote your books? I also note they aren't in KU. I was wide the first three years while I published my first series. I finally bit the bullet and surrendered to Amazon's exclusivity and doubled my income the first year. This year I'll do ten times last year.

If what you're doing isn't working, try something different. That doesn't always mean writing in a different genre.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

gilesxbecker said:


> I just went there and it looks very good. You have a quality to your voice that has an ancient epic or fairy-tale quality. Don't be discouraged! I am going to order it and give you a review. You never know what will happen with a book. I think Bridges of Madison County languished for more than a year and then suddenly took off.


Thank you!


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

brkingsolver said:


> What are you doing to promote your books? I also note they aren't in KU. I was wide the first three years while I published my first series. I finally bit the bullet and surrendered to Amazon's exclusivity and doubled my income the first year. This year I'll do ten times last year.
> 
> If what you're doing isn't working, try something different. That doesn't always mean writing in a different genre.


Because I had it wide, it couldn't be on kindle. So I took it off of wide, and Amazon has given me a date when I can finally put it on the KU. I've been moving my other books to the KU too.

Thanks for the comment. What you say about trying different strategies is very true. I've run ads with Booksbuttery and have tried with a third party for Netgallery reviews, but no reviews have come in yet. I'm told there have been 20 requests for each book, but no review so far.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

CynthiaClay said:


> Because I had it wide, it couldn't be on kindle. So I took it off of wide, and Amazon has given me a date when I can finally put it on the KU. I've been moving my other books to the KU too.
> 
> Thanks for the comment. What you say about trying different strategies is very true. I've run ads with Booksbuttery and have tried with a third party for Netgallery reviews, but no reviews have come in yet. I'm told there have been 20 requests for each book, but no review so far.


For me, Booksbutterfly has been a black hole. Robin Reads, Book Barbarian, ENT, FKBT, Bargain and Free Booksy, Book Sends all work better and are cheaper. I try to spend about $100 a month rotating between promo services to keep my books visible. Also take a look at Patty Jansen's promos.


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## Ryan W. Mueller (Jul 14, 2017)

I'll be perfectly happy if noblebright fantasy catches on. I'd always thought the name was a bit silly, but now that I've read the description a bit more carefully, it seems that it's the kind of fantasy I write. Sure, lots of dark stuff can happen in my books, but through it all, my characters are more on the noble side, trying to do the right thing in most situations.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

One of the great things about our genre is that we can have such diverse stories!

My current series is more noblebright but I have plans for more grimdark/realism, and I'm already plotting a murder mystery "pilot" book in the Havenglade universe to test the waters for that sort of thing.

As soon as my book three "Blood Cauldron" releases I'll be a little more free to pursue these others avenues.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

I won't even read grimdark fantasy any more. The real world is a messed up place. I don't want to be immersed in cynicism and darkness when I venture into someone's fantasy world.

I grew up believing that I could either find, or become, men like Aragon, Elrond, Theoden, etc. And while I've discovered that no one is as truly heroic as our fictional heroes, and I acknowledge that I'm too flawed to be like them myself, I _need_ that ideal. I need to believe in heroes, because the world is too dark without them.

Classic fantasy functions as my personal myth and legend. It is a vast reservoir of encouragement, wisdom, and personal morality that I have relied on a thousand times throughout my life.

I'm not close to writing something like that, but someday I hope to be.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> I won't even read grimdark fantasy any more. The real world is a messed up place. I don't want to be immersed in cynicism and darkness when I venture into someone's fantasy world.
> 
> I grew up believing that I could either find, or become, men like Aragon, Elrond, Theoden, etc. And while I've discovered that no one is as truly heroic as our fictional heroes, and I acknowledge that I'm too flawed to be like them myself, I _need_ that ideal. I need to believe in heroes, because the world is too dark without them.
> 
> ...


For the night is dark and full of terrors...


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I don't see why an older person (early 20s to late 30s and beyond) couldn't be the MC in a fantasy. People are always having to deal with challenges that make them rethink how they want to spend their lives. Divorce, illness, career changes, etc. can make a person re-examine what's important and their place in the world.
> 
> Look at Aragorn in LOTR. He was hardly a teenager, but I thought his struggle to live up to what was expected of him, contrasted with the legacy of his ancestor, was one of the best parts of the story.


The main characters in my fantasy are older. One is a middle aged father trying to ensure his two sons survive through a war. Another is an elderly ranger who is mute and hideously ugly, though he manages to become the ultimate hero of the story. All my readers seem to love the mute guy the most, though some really enjoy the love of the father trying to protect his sons.

I guess my book fits into this new noblebright category, since all the main characters, despite their imperfections, always try to do the right thing. Like someone mentioned, I don't like that category name--it makes it seem sparkly and squeaky clean.


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> I won't even read grimdark fantasy any more. The real world is a messed up place. I don't want to be immersed in cynicism and darkness when I venture into someone's fantasy world.
> 
> I grew up believing that I could either find, or become, men like Aragon, Elrond, Theoden, etc. And while I've discovered that no one is as truly heroic as our fictional heroes, and I acknowledge that I'm too flawed to be like them myself, I _need_ that ideal. I need to believe in heroes, because the world is too dark without them.
> 
> ...


That was very well said.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Lorri Moulton said:


> Cynthia, I think there are more noblebright type of fantasies than people realize. There are so many indie authors and many of us don't have a huge following...yet.
> 
> Meanwhile, I just keep writing more books. Eventually, one will take off and then there will be plenty of my other stories for people to read.


Thanks Lorri. Your Moonlight Roses and Murder is one of the books I am currently reading.


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Kyra Halland said:


> I think a lot of readers, including me, are hungry for epic/high fantasy that isn't grim and depressing, that shows the good that exists in people and that that good is meaningful and worth something.


I'm in that camp. First as a reader and second as a writer (though, that's a remote second, as I'd very much rather read than write any day of the week).

Noblebright is about a good a term as I've heard for fantasy written from a hopeful perspective. Someone on this thread remarked that it initially sounds like sparkly unicorns and whatnot, before you dive into the actual ideas behind the term (I think CJ Brightley has the best essays on it so far). That's true, but things that are noble--people, movements, ideas, etc--tend to be tough, courageous things that are often worth dying for. They can be difficult and lonely, the hard choice made by the individual standing out from the crowd. History makes a pretty good case for that.

And bright? Dangerous things are bright: sharp sword edges, fangs and armor. Supernovas. A candle shining in the darkness of Moria.

Anyway, I think we live in a great time for noblebright stories. These are dark, depressing times for many reasons. People need good ways to escape. There's not much better than a good book that'll take you to Middle Earth or wherever for a couple of hours.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

M/M fantasy = GayBright.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> M/M fantasy = GayBright.


Lol, I wouldn't go that far.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> M/M fantasy = GayBright.





Kat_Merikan said:


> Lol, I wouldn't go that far.


Actually, that would be my style. No, I wouldn't use the moniker; it sounds rather silly.

But even my darkest fantasy books are about MCs doing exactly the right thing.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> Actually, that would be my style. No, I wouldn't use the moniker; it sounds rather silly.
> 
> But even my darkest fantasy books are about MCs doing exactly the right thing.


Mine should be GrimGayDark then


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Mine should be GrimGayDark then


Now that's just so wrong... especially if you use the definition gay=happy.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

I put out a fantasy last year, dark, where the FMC learns sorcery. Forbidden in her Kingdom. Necromancers are gathering to destroy the kingdom and the king turns to her to help identify sorcerous magic. The kingdom uses spirit magic and can't detect sorcery.

So she start out being hung, gets a last second reprieve, and has to make a choice: help the kingdom (which enslaves people) or help the necromancers destroy her home.

Very dark. She does the right thing in the end and destroys the kingdom. Lots of blood, violence, and wrestling with what's right and wrong.


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## Kat_Merikan (Dec 31, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> I put out a fantasy last year, dark, where the FMC learns sorcery. Forbidden in her Kingdom. Necromancers are gathering to destroy the kingdom and the king turns to her to help identify sorcerous magic. The kingdom uses spirit magic and can't detect sorcery.
> 
> So she start out being hung, gets a last second reprieve, and has to make a choice: help the kingdom (which enslaves people) or help the necromancers destroy her home.
> 
> Very dark. She does the right thing in the end and destroys the kingdom. Lots of blood, violence, and wrestling with what's right and wrong.


Does she become the Evil Queen be the end?  (What's the title?)


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Kat_Merikan said:


> Does she become the Evil Queen be the end?  (What's the title?)


Yeah, seriously, don't dangle a cool story in our faces and not have your book links in your sig! That's just plain mean!


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Cool? It was a flop.   Name recognition sells everything I put out under Laran Mithras. Because the sorceress book was under my real name, I had no customer base on which to fall back on.

I toyed with her becoming a Sorcerer Queen, but didn't want to seem cliche. In the end, she set off on something promising a romantic ending.


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## BillSmithBooksDotCom (Nov 4, 2012)

I think it is important for the _author_ to understand how magic works.

The _characters_ in the world, though, probably _think_ they understand how magic works ... but part of the drama comes when they come up against a situation where their first thought is, "That's not supposed to happen."

Magic should have rules ... but the discovery and interpretation of those rules, well, that can be a hell of an adventure.


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Laran Mithras said:


> Cool? It was a flop.  Name recognition sells everything I put out under Laran Mithras. Because the sorceress book was under my real name, I had no customer base on which to fall back on.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Season-Sorceress-William-Thrash-ebook/dp/B01L5UWAB0
> 
> I toyed with her becoming a Sorcerer Queen, but didn't want to seem cliche. In the end, she set off on something promising a romantic ending.


OMG the last line of that blurb made me laugh - that is awesome!


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## jckang (Jul 10, 2016)

Lots of great responses here.

I'd be curious to see what the trends are in POV and narrative distance.  First Person?  Omniscient?  Limited Third? Past or Present Tense? 

For my coming of age epic series, I wrote in Third Limited. I went on a jihad against filter words to make it close third.  It sells OK, but not great, and I'm wondering if a more distant third would be more appealing to epic readers (or, maybe it's not a POV issue, and the books just suck!).


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## jckang (Jul 10, 2016)

Over the last couple of months, I've read some popular indie epic fantasy, including SPFBO2 winner Grey Bastards by Jonathan French; and Kboards authors Phil Tucker's Path of Flames and Alec Hutson's Crimson Queen.  All have won plenty of high profile awards among them, and sold very well.

All three stories are very different in theme, different in age of main characters, different in moral grey bastardness; but I find one common thread among them:  spectacularly unique world building, exquisite wordsmithing, and compelling characters.

In that, they share the same elements of all popular literature across genres, past and present


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2017)

LitRPG is about to evolve. A group of writers who felt constrained by the strict rules of the genre decided to write stories that, though not LitRPG, are RPG inspired. They're calling it GameLit. I have heard a rumor that it's actually going mainstream with an Apub deal. Don't know who or when.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Without a doubt, my bestseller over time, was written in 3rd person, limited. However, that was years ago when the market wasn't oversaturated.

My current bestseller is written in 1st person and my better sellers below that are first person.

Could be genre. Could be that my voice is better in 1st person. But most of my books now are 1st person.


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## Ryan W. Mueller (Jul 14, 2017)

jckang said:


> Over the last couple of months, I've read some popular indie epic fantasy, including SPFBO2 winner Grey [illegitimate persons] by Jonathan French; and Kboards authors Phil Tucker's Path of Flames and Alec Hutson's Crimson Queen. All have won plenty of high profile awards among them, and sold very well.
> 
> All three stories are very different in theme, different in age of main characters, different in moral grey [illegitimate person]ness; but I find one common thread among them: spectacularly unique world building, exquisite wordsmithing, and compelling characters.
> 
> In that, they share the same elements of all popular literature across genres, past and present


Still need to read French's book, but I couldn't agree more on The Crimson Queen and The Path of Flames. I would put both of those books above 90% of the trade-published fantasy I read. In fact, Tucker's series has become one of my favorite epic fantasy series ever.


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## Ryan W. Mueller (Jul 14, 2017)

Laran Mithras said:


> Without a doubt, my bestseller over time, was written in 3rd person, limited. However, that was years ago when the market wasn't oversaturated.
> 
> My current bestseller is written in 1st person and my better sellers below that are first person.
> 
> Could be genre. Could be that my voice is better in 1st person. But most of my books now are 1st person.


I've always wondered how point of view affects sales. Most of what I read is written in third person limited with multiple POV characters. But then you have authors like D.K. Holmberg who do very well with a single third-person point of view (at least in the books of his I've read. I don't know if that holds true for all his books).

I've been toying with the idea of that kind of POV myself. Don't get me wrong. I love sprawling epics with lots of POV characters, but there's something to be said for a more personal story told from a single point of view. Usually, I'm somewhere in between (3 to 5 POV characters).


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

Omniscient and multiple POVs were traditional for epic fantasy. Now? I'm thinking close third and not so many (or only one) POV is gaining a lot of traction. 

World building is a biggie - but again some do that and others not so much. Some readers go in for this in a huge way... and for others it's more about the story. Epic fantasy is niches within niches. 

Exquisite wordsmithing: Sadly, I feel that few readers are into this. I wish it were otherwise.


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## jckang (Jul 10, 2016)

Jack Krenneck said:


> Exquisite wordsmithing: Sadly, I feel that few readers are into this. I wish it were otherwise.


If it's too purple, I'm meh... but I was having Wordgasms reading Crimson Queen... I can't tell you how many times I was thinking, _OMG, what a wonderful word choice!_ or,_ I haven't heard that word since I was studying for the SAT!_


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## pwtucker (Feb 12, 2011)

Argh! Alec was kind enough to point this out to me. Blurb fixed. No idea how that happened.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

> For me, Booksbutterfly has been a black hole. Robin Reads, Book Barbarian, ENT, FKBT, Bargain and Free Booksy, Book Sends all work better and are cheaper. I try to spend about $100 a month rotating between promo services to keep my books visible. Also take a look at Patty Jansen's promos.


Thanks for the advice. I have not yet garnered enough Amazon reviews to do these other ad programs. I hope to get there!


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

This_Way_Down said:


> LitRPG is about to evolve. A group of writers who felt constrained by the strict rules of the genre decided to write stories that, though not LitRPG, are RPG inspired. They're calling it GameLit. I have heard a rumor that it's actually going mainstream with an Apub deal. Don't know who or when.


Now my fantasy book would definitely fit into this category. Probably my sci-fi as well, since it has strong elements of this that end up leading to the fantasy novel.


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

This was an interesting thread, so I thought I'd make some current observations.

The coming of age story where the MC becomes both a warrior and a magic user seems to be in decline. I think.

Epic fantasy is broadening into more diversified territory. Covers and stories seem much less homogeneous than they used to be.

Dragons were making a bit of a comeback a few months ago. Now, they've positively exploded over the epic fantasy bestseller list. They're _massive_.

Litrpg continues to chug along quite nicely.

The assassin/political intrigue type stories seem to be trailing off. Does this represents a decline in grimdark and an upsurge in noblebright? Maybe...


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## jckang (Jul 10, 2016)

Were dragons ever out of style?


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

I think so. They were big in the 80's, and then they disappeared in a puff of smoke.


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

M R Mortimer said:


> Interesting observations, Jack. My fantasy trilogy has no dragons. But then, it also has no elves, no orcs, no werewolves, no vampires, and no zombies. I always adored dragons when I was younger, but deliberately chose not to place any in my series. Perhaps I will have to ride it out until they fade away a bit again? I mean, no way would I shoe horn them into it. That kind of thing is worse than no dragon at all (or no vampire or werewolf or wizard or whatever the current popular trope is)
> 
> I think if you write what your story demands, and write it well, the fads will come and go, and at some point, your story may be the fad. So enjoy it!


Agreed. For instance, I could easily enough put dragons in my stories - but they would be tacked on rather than central to the story. Worse, I could do that and mention them in the blurb and put them on the cover. This wouldn't wash with the dragon fans though...A bad move indeed.

But it's nice to know what's hot and what's not. From a business point of view, I'm quite willing to nudge my muse in a certain direction if it will pay off and also be something that I'd enjoy writing.


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## Ryan W. Mueller (Jul 14, 2017)

I wish I could figure out what the trends are going to be. I'd love it if more traditional and quest-oriented fantasy came back. I love those kinds of stories, but I got away from that because I didn't think it would sell.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Ryan W. Mueller said:


> I wish I could figure out what the trends are going to be. I'd love it if more traditional and quest-oriented fantasy came back. I love those kinds of stories, but I got away from that because I didn't think it would sell.


Anything can sell if it's written well enough.


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

I think there are less of the old-school quest scenario type books than there used to be, but there's still a strong market for it - especially for readers who like indie books.

Epic fantasy/sword and sorcery cover a lot more territory now than they used to. The market is very fragmented, but each individual niche is still pretty strong. Honestly, I think with good marketing, good writing and a touch of luck any of the sub-genres can climb very high in the ranks. It just comes down to what an author likes to write and the skill-set to optimize visibility for what they've produced.  

I also think that if you happen to release to trend your sales can skyrocket. But the trends come and go and it's probably detrimental to building a career/fan base to hop all over the place trying to follow what's hot.


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## C. Michael Wells (Feb 26, 2014)

Just looking at the various fantasy books I'm looking forward to, I can tell you that there is a demand for a variety of different, well-written books. I'm constantly searching for updates on GRRM's next book (grimdark), Rothfuss' next book (Which follows a singular character and is mostly in first person), Sanderson's Wax & Wayne book (Magical Western with a very hard rule magic system) and Brent Week's Prism Series Finale (Which is more in line which the epic fantasy, heroes win, multiple viewpoints variety). 

None of these books are similar, yet they all fall under the epic Fantasy umbrella and are highly anticipated. The common thread is that they all have amazing character progression.


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## Nikolas TorVald (Sep 15, 2017)

There's a lot of grimdark out there because of ASOIAF but I think a lot of other books still work. I mean, people do go back to WoT and other really great series which aren't grimdark _because_ there's nothing new being published in that vein.


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## scott.marmorstein (May 26, 2015)

This thread is interesting. I'm also writing an epic fantasy book (first person perspective) and the MC is 300 human years old. Talk about quite the challenge. So I had to figure out a way for him to learn more about himself in the most clever way I could think of. I hope it works. But most importantly, his antagonist, and his goals, are all entwined. So far I'm loving it, but I would be biased on the matter.


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

jckang said:


> Over the last couple of months, I've read some popular indie epic fantasy, including SPFBO2 winner Grey [illegitimate persons] by Jonathan French; and Kboards authors Phil Tucker's Path of Flames and Alec Hutson's Crimson Queen. All have won plenty of high profile awards among them, and sold very well.
> 
> All three stories are very different in theme, different in age of main characters, different in moral grey [illegitimate person]ness; but I find one common thread among them: spectacularly unique world building, exquisite wordsmithing, and compelling characters.
> 
> In that, they share the same elements of all popular literature across genres, past and present


Well, now I think I need to read those three. Are they all 3rd person POV?


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## jckang (Jul 10, 2016)

Christopher Bunn said:


> Well, now I think I need to read those three. Are they all 3rd person POV?


Yup. Grey [email protected] is limited 3rd POV; Path of Flames and Crimson Queen are multiple limited 3rd Person POV.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

jckang said:


> Yup. Grey [email protected] is limited 3rd POV; Path of Flames and Crimson Queen are multiple limited 3rd Person POV.


Songs of insurrection is decent, as well.


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## jckang (Jul 10, 2016)

Herefortheride said:


> Songs of insurrection is decent, as well.


Why, thank you


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## AliceS (Dec 28, 2014)

And my TBR grows!


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## Vale (Jul 19, 2017)

Jack Krenneck said:


> The coming of age story where the MC becomes both a warrior and a magic user seems to be in decline. I think.


I'm a little relieved at this. A lot of my favorite stories are coming of age, but I've been a little burned out on them. I've found myself subconsciously seeking out books that doesn't show signs of being a coming of age story. Some slip through and they're good =] But I guess I'm ready to spend some time away from that trope.

Or maybe there's a distinction there. Sometimes you see a character who isn't "growing up" but is coming into their own. Or embracing their passions or skills. Often that goes hand-in-glove with coming of age, but when it isn't a character who is also growing up it doesn't raise the same fatigue flags for me.

It's good to see so many dragon and creature fantasies rising in popularity. I'm the kind of person who reads Lord of the Rings and wishes they'd cut out the humans and stick to the wizards, elves, dragons, and monsters. I don't have that same reaction to other genres, but when it comes to fantasy... please no more human protagonists or human kingdoms. I'd rather see what a day in the life of a dragon is like than a day in the life of a stable boy who wants to be a knight and might find a sword to make him king. I've been reading through the Song of the Summer King chronicles by Jess Owen and it's a relief that human isn't the default.

Oddly enough, I don't feel the same way about sci-fi or horror, even though they could use aliens or other non-human protagonists. It's only fantasy.


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