# Income expectations from self-publishing?



## Kam K Nash (Sep 16, 2016)

I have a career that is unrelated to writing fiction. Over the past few months, I have spent an increasing percentage of my leisure time writing fiction (I currently have 60k on a first draft that will likely be 80k novel, a short story that is 7k, and a few more ideas for novels in my queue). As I continue to become more interested in the idea of becoming a self-published author, I've been trying to get a sense for what being a full-time author would really be like, and part of my research for that has been reading kboards daily.

Although there are many threads discussing income in various ways, and it is easy to think of the rare extraordinary successes, I am still very unsure what the range of likely outcomes is for someone entering the self-publishing field.

Imagine that you know a new author who writes competently (e.g., reading the first page of her work does not lead you to throw up your hands and say "Ugh! What an amateur with no hope! I'm embarrassed on this author's behalf!"). Furthermore, this new author has paid attention to the most common advice on kboards (plans to pay for decent editing and cover design, has put some thought into how to price and market, etc.). What do you think would happen if this author tried to make writing a full-time career (e.g., each year producing multiple novels, along with some shorter works)?

More specifically, imagine you had 100 such friends. How many do you think would fall I into each of the following four categories:

(A) lose money or make a trivial amount
(B) make some nice "cool, but still keep your day job" money
(C) make a decent living
(D) "woohoo! gold mine!"

Some clarifications: Clearly, people have different ideas about how much income puts you in each category. So I'll suggest $20,000/year as the bottom of "C" (this is a bit less than the median personal income in the USA of $24,000) and $60,000 for the top of "C." Also, there will no doubt be huge differences based on genre (an author who writes romance and an author who writes historical fiction will likely not have identical prospects). So guesses across a range of genres (e.g., romance, sci-fi/fantasy, young adult, literary fiction) would be welcome. Finally, although I'm happy to hear very precise guesses, I'm mostly interested in how many of the 100 friends end up in "C."

Thanks all!


----------



## harpwriter (Sep 28, 2010)

I know there are those who do make a decent living.  It's also a matter of luck, to an extent.  In one my local writers' groups, we had one member who markets steadily and keeps his day job, despite producing book after book.  We have another who woke up one morning to find over half a million dollars in his bank account.  Some site had posted his book without him even knowing and it went viral.


----------



## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

It also takes time. Some people might hit it out of the ballpark and reach B, C, or even D with just one or two books or in their first year; others may progress slowly over several years. Given enough time, the factors you're talking about (reasonably well-written books, professional-level covers and editing, necessary promotion), patience and persistence, and a dollop of luck, I think a good portion of authors will reach B or C at some point.


----------



## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

Because of some bad things happening to me I needed some external motivation and asked a similar question to that.  Good luck getting a straight answer on the boards.  

I believe Patty Jansen put out a thread a good while ago on how to make a decent income at this.  Highlights:
Write in series.  Have 4 series out.  Learn how to promote and then spend 80% of your time promoting and 20% writing.

Here is how I can help you.  If you want to increase the chance of success then like everyone else says:  Series, hit the tropes, study top sellers in the genre.  An expensive book cover is not always necessary.  After all you will likely be changing them as they get stale every few years.

I do SF and 'guy stuff'.
From what I have seen most authors would be in C if they did the above.  More A and B if they keep writing stand alones.

If all 100 are equally competent and doing the same things and hit it?  No reason they could not bounce past C into D and be truly successful.

Write series that are not super long.
do popular (hit tropes)
good covers
build mailing list
your choice if you go wide vs just zon either would work.
realize that how the sellers work will keep changing (dynamic change environment) comes to mind.  put money away and keep an eye on the general trends.  

Hope this helps!


----------



## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

tomgermann said:


> Because of some bad things happening to me I needed some external motivation and asked a similar question to that. Good luck getting a straight answer on the boards.
> 
> I believe Patty Jansen put out a thread a good while ago on how to make a decent income at this. Highlights:
> Write in series. Have 4 series out. Learn how to promote and then spend 80% of your time promoting and 20% writing.


Here's that thread. Lots of good stuff there. http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,231169.0.html


----------



## thelma (Sep 7, 2016)

Interesting thread! Apart from what has already been posted on this topic, I found a thread called "How Much does an Average Self-publisher Make on Amazon?" on quora.com.

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-an-average-self-publishing-author-make-on-Amazon

Thelma


----------



## LaneCampbell (Jun 7, 2016)

You might find the author earnings report interesting

http://authorearnings.com/


----------



## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

i think the ranges you've given are pretty interesting. I'm in C right now, but it's not enough to give up my day job. Not even close. I would think 'gold mine' is a category E, because I would need to be in your D category to consider quitting the day job, but I wouldn't consider that a gold mine.


----------



## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Here's some numbers that relate average daily sales to rank (this is steady rank, not peak rank):

Rank = 10: avg daily sales to maintain rank = 1,289
Rank = 100: 191 daily sales
Rank = 1,000: 28 daily sales
Rank = 10,000 : 4 daily sales
Rank = 100,000 : 0.6 daily sales.

I would then say that to be in the "C" group above, you need several books that can sustain rank below 1,000. There's already a bunch of authors there, and that includes all the Amazon imprint titles and trad pub titles as well. So there's probably only a few hundred indie authors in that pool at any one time. But there are probably a million authors in the total population. What percent of those would you consider to be "good"? One percent? That's still 10,000. In that pool of 10,000, there is only a few percent (single digit percents) that are making a livable wage. It has to be that way because of the steepness of the sales rank curve.


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

FYI:

Kyra - you are right. Patty's post keeps me going some days.

Patty Jansens (very inspirational) post.
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,231169.0.html

555aaa - I'm not sure where those numbers came from. Maybe if you have those numbers very consistently over time? This looks a little more accurate. Although the variables and fluctuations are are so many...
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,238223.0.html


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I know quite a few people in each group, as you've set them up, at least. No matter what, you have to put work in. I do very little marketing and focus on writing. It's worked for me. Others take different paths. No one path works for everyone.


----------



## S.L. (Jun 6, 2016)

My book has been out for 5 weeks.  During that time I've made a little over $150 with almost no promo.  I'm saving all promo money for the later books as that is where it will be more beneficial.  Currently, I'm hard at work on book 2 and I'm hoping that by book 3 I will be somewhere between b and c.

Very rarely does someone make c or d with one book.  If you have 7 books out and each one brings in $100 a month, all of a sudden that is an extra $700 in you bank account.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I know quite a few people in each group, as you've set them up, at least. No matter what, you have to put work in. I do very little marketing and focus on writing. It's worked for me. Others take different paths. No one path works for everyone.


What she said. Same for me.

Very hard to know how it'll go until you try. You kind of have to throw your hat into the ring and see. I don't think anybody would have bet on me. I sent my first book around to 38 agents & editors, got 1 request for pages & 2 for a full MS, and ended up with 38 rejections. Only one person even said she really liked the book. The book became a bestseller in 2 languages and in audio. Not a GIGANTIC bestseller, but I was well above your "D" within a few months of publication.

Even the publishing industry doesn't really know what will sell. How many people turned down Harry Potter? You have to try it and see.

(Somebody said above about not being able to get a "straight answer." That's because NOBODY KNOWS. Most books don't sell. Something like 90% of authors earn less than $10,000/year from writing. Or maybe it's 1,000. Can't remember. So, yeah. Most books don't sell. Some do. Follow best practices, and you'll increase your chances of being in the "selling" group, but nobody can guarantee it.)


----------



## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

It sounds like such a cop-out to say "it depends", but it really does. In general I make A money, and for the most part I'm totally fine with that, because like you I have a career that pays the bills. But when I needed some cash last year, I toddled off and dabbled in romance, etc (a whole world of private shame caught up in that "etc", trust me), and within a month or so I was earning very decent B money, edging into C. And that was without having any particular aptitude for the genre, I was astonished at how much the experts were coining in all around me.

So if you're looking at writing something in a hot genre, I'd say you have a better than evens chance of getting into C. If you're writing translations of 18th Century French classics, I'm rather afraid I'll see you in A.


----------



## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

sstroble said:


> Those who are prospering today are the ones who supply editing, proofreading, cover design, formatting, advertizing, marketing, and other services to authors. A much higher percentage of them would fall into your sought after category "C" than the percentage of writers who do.


Yeah, I once did the math on what BKnights brings in per year and it made me ill thinking that I was on the wrong side of this thing.

To the OP: I wouldn't consider $20K a good living at all but that does make for a good analogy to self-publishing. Let's say that $24K is the median income in the U.S. That's all people working and earning money and per that stat half earn less than that. But many of those are people who either are not working full-time or are working at jobs with no upward prospects or at jobs that are "for the passion" jobs like, say, teaching 3rd grade. So really if you took the population and narrowed it down to people who have completed four-year degrees at accredited institutions you'll find that number moves, probably a lot. And if you then narrow it down by how long people have been working you'll again see that those who've been in the professional work force for a decade probably have a much higher median income than those only a year or two in.

Self-publishing is a bit like that to. If you look at all the people self-publishing, 99% make nothing or lose money on it. If you narrow that down to people who come to Kboards you'll see more people making money from it and some making very good money from it. And those who choose to focus in profitable genres (romance, urban fantasy, space opera, etc.) are going to, all other things being equal, make more. And those who've been working and refining their craft for years or who've been self-publishing for years are also likely to make more. Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions like Rosalind who do well from the start. But if you scratch the surface on a lot of the success stories in self-pub you find that many of those who do well from the start were writing for years before they started publishing. Very few were first-time writers. And it's not necessarily an issue of craft, although that can be part of it, it's an issue of being able to steadily and reliably publish books of consistent quality that allow you to build an audience. Most authors when they start are not capable of writing 4 novels a year.

So...for a new writer who has just written their first novel and who tries their best to do all the "right" things, I'd say:
(A) 98% (Because this also includes that danger area where someone spends money on editing, cover, etc. and has a great book but it's just one book and word of mouth doesn't propel it up the charts. To keep selling when you have only one book requires finding new readers for every single sale. That is not easy)
(B) 1%
(C) .9%
(D) .1%

My advice to any friend trying to break into self-publishing would be to write and finish at least three novels, preferably in a series or at a minimum under the same name and in related genres, before ever hitting publish.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I have 17,000 such friends here on the KBoards Writers' Cafe

*My impression of the ODDS - assuming craft competence and keeping up with the industry*

*Year One*

A) 95% 
B) 4.9%
C) 0.099%
D) 0.001%

*Year Two* (And possibly genre / Pen Name Two)

A) 50% (20% dropped out)
B) 28.9%
C) 1.099%
D) 0.001%

*Year Three* (And possibly genre / Pen Name Three)

A) 10% (50% dropped out)
B) 37.9%
C) 2.099%
D) 0.001%

*Year Four* (And possibly genre / Pen Name Four)

A) 5% (50% dropped out)
B) 41.9%
C) 3.099%
D) 0.001%


----------



## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

So many variables. 

Bottom line, I would tell someone not to expect to make much money at all. Simply because that's the way it works. You can have everything in your favour in terms of craft and packaging, and it might not make any difference. I've seen it happen. So, go into it expecting it to cost you money and be surprised when you make money. 

Oh, and where do you live where 20K is a decent living? It's below the poverty line where i live.


----------



## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

I think two major factors you didn't mention are: 

-How willing is this author to keep evolving and to listen to advice about their own work? One of the big mistakes I see with artists are people who go to boards like this and expose themselves to lots of advice and sorta think they're following it, but they are actually making really obvious mistakes because they have blinders on about their OWN work.
--How prolific are they? (Nevermind, you did mention this, I just missed it.)

Assuming all other things are true: they're a good writer, they write to market, they get good covers and advertisement in intelligent ways, I think the chances of hitting C are pretty good.

That said, I do live on 20k a year. For the first 10 years of my adult life I lived on 10k a year!! One of the secrets of my "success" is being a budgeting QUEEN.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

ImaWriter said:


> Bottom line, I would tell someone not to expect to make much money at all. Simply because that's the way it works. You can have everything in your favour in terms of craft and packaging, and it might not make any difference. I've seen it happen. So, go into it expecting it to cost you money and be surprised when you make money.


Pretty much. I mean, there are definitely things you can do to mitigate your odds: writing a good book, nice cover, good marketing plan etc etc, but 99/100 if you come into this business expecting to hit it big, you're going to walk away very disappointed.


----------



## mojomikey (Apr 9, 2014)

According to wikipedia, from US Census Bureau, median household income in US in 2013 was over 51,000. Census bureau estimate for 2015 for median was 54K. I would think 20K would be bottom end of acceptable wage - minimum wage is over $10/hour in many cities, which roughly equates to 20K/year.

Assuming the craft is there and the writer can pump out out books on a regular basis, C is very reachable within a few years. That also assumes good covers, editing, writing in series, at least some attention paid to tropes and genres (as someone said earlier, if you're translating mid 18th century French classics, it really doesn't matter how well you write, you're not gonna make a living)

For ease of numbers, $36K a year is $100/day. If you have a range of books out at various price points, both print and e-copy, and have multiple titles, that is a very doable number. My first book is priced $25, sell most of 'em in person when I give talks about my firefighting career, clear about $22/book. And I have a deluxe edition, more photos, etc. for $100, and t-shirts. It all adds up - you just have to be creative marketing it.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Never mind the post I wrote that's quoted upthread. I'm of the opinion that if you *expect* to make money, you should turn around, find yourself the nearest classifieds and apply for a job. Because you have the wrong mindset to start off.

Many people make money from selling creative products. All of them, whether they be musicians, visual artists or writers were craftspeople before they became business people. Make no mistake, you have to be both, but if you're going into this rubbing your hands thinking you'll make money, or thinking of the money *first*, then you're missing the crucial first step in my plan: it assumes you have already spent the time necessary to learn how to craft a tale that doesn't suck.

Also, the provider thing quoted upthread holds true: the ones making the surefire money are the service providers.

Being a successful writer takes a lot of work, practice, determination, time and effort. Generally speaking, people who think of the money first are prepared to spend none of those things.

As aside: are average wages in the US *really* that low?


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

555aaa said:


> Here's some numbers that relate average daily sales to rank (this is steady rank, not peak rank):
> 
> Rank = 10: avg daily sales to maintain rank = 1,289
> Rank = 100: 191 daily sales
> ...


And I say BS.

I'm making more than 50k this year and not one of my books hangs around for any length of time above 50k ranking...

IN THE US STORE

ON AMAZON

I wish people would just stop staring themselves blind on freaking rankings in the freaking Amazon US store. There is a whole world out there, yanno.

I have more than 20 books. I'm wide. Amazon is less than 50% of my earnings. Amazon US is less than half of that. In fact, Amazon UK is usually about 2/3rd of my Amazon US sales. So yeah. You are NOT your Amazon US ranking.


----------



## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

555aaa said:


> Here's some numbers that relate average daily sales to rank (this is steady rank, not peak rank):
> 
> Rank = 10: avg daily sales to maintain rank = 1,289
> Rank = 100: 191 daily sales
> ...


Pretty sure these numbers aren't accurate. When my books are ranking above 10,000 they're making a lot more than 4 sales a day. But the larger point is, how are you connecting rank to earnings? Income per book is a variable here. one person's 4 sales a day might mean something different compared to another person's 4 sales a day.


----------



## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> As aside: are average wages in the US *really* that low?


No. At least not in my part of the US.


----------



## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

So if you make $50,000 per year and have 20 books that means each book needs to make $2,500 per year.
At $2.99 at 70% that is roughly $2 per book that means you would have to sell 1,250 books in a year over 365 days.  So if you have 20 books at no higher than $2.99 then you need to have about 3.5 sales per day.

Pretty doable just takes time.

My sf novellas will be $2.99 my sf books will be $3.99 per book.
maybe when I get more out and series are popular I will bump full novel prices up a bit.

So like patty says (and I always listen to her common sense) it is not that difficult to do well as an indie.  It just takes decent books and a number of them.

PS I think I am a mediocre writer but I know with enough out there I can make decent money later.  
PPS  I did not say bad writer.


----------



## Guest (Sep 16, 2016)

sstroble said:


> A) 95% (assuming they pay for editors, cover designers, advertizing, etc.)
> B) 4.9%
> C) 0.099%
> D) 0.001%


This IMO is about right. It's getting tough out there because of the competition and changes in the environment. If you love to write, the category you fall into doesn't matter as much as knowing you put out that book or books you always wanted to write.

Personally, I'd keep my day job but continue to write. After a while, you'll see which category you fit into.


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> A) 95% (assuming they pay for editors, cover designers, advertizing, etc.)
> B) 4.9%
> C) 0.099%
> D) 0.001%


Hate to be a downer, but that's about how it works out. We can do everything right, follow all the advice that works for everyone else, and still can't make it full time as a writer. It's never been easy, and it isn't easy now. What is easier is the publishing part. Anybody can publish, whether they should or not.

I'm in the camp that it may not be necessary to pay for editing, covers and formatting, but probably the best for most writers, especially those who are new. Ads are necessary now, and money needs to be found for some level of promotion (there are free ways, but they're overwhelmed).

My opinion is that you should focus on learning to write first, no matter how long it takes. Once competence is reached (proper English usage, proper storytelling skills -- it doesn't have to be perfect, but it needs to be darn close), you can move forward. While doing this, keep up with the latest in publishing and marketing, with the understanding that things change, become less effective, and so on. Far too many writers jump into publishing before they're ready and it ends up being frustrating and pointless.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

tomgermann said:


> So if you make $50,000 per year and have 20 books that means each book needs to make $2,500 per year.
> At $2.99 at 70% that is roughly $2 per book that means you would have to sell 1,250 books in a year over 365 days. So if you have 20 books at no higher than $2.99 then you need to have about 3.5 sales per day.
> 
> Pretty doable just takes time.
> ...


It really helps to be an optimist. I would be pleased if my seven novels sold 1,250 total this year. You can play math games all you like, but until you put your books in front of the readers, it doesn't mean anything. Did you check the link for Author Earnings? Fewer than 10,000 authors published in the past 100 years are selling $10,000 per year. That includes Hemingway, Steinbeck, King, Steele, Herbert, Roberts, Grisham, et. al. What you are seeing on Kboards are the creme de la creme of the self pub world. The exceptions.


----------



## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

I started publishing in 2011. Until this year, I was supporting my books. I wrote out of love of writing, and I was okay with that. (But, yeah, having the books support me is nice for a change, too.)


----------



## Mikaela Copy Editor (Jun 3, 2015)

Go in with no expectations and you can only be pleasantly surprised. This is not a get-rich-quick trade, but self-publishing definitely gives you so much more control over your success. It has to do with the effort you put in, time, and luck.


----------



## N. D. Iverson (Feb 1, 2016)

Kam K Nash said:


> I have a career that is unrelated to writing fiction. Over the past few months, I have spent an increasing percentage of my leisure time writing fiction (I currently have 60k on a first draft that will likely be 80k novel, a short story that is 7k, and a few more ideas for novels in my queue). As I continue to become more interested in the idea of becoming a self-published author, I've been trying to get a sense for what being a full-time author would really be like, and part of my research for that has been reading kboards daily.
> 
> Although there are many threads discussing income in various ways, and it is easy to think of the rare extraordinary successes, I am still very unsure what the range of likely outcomes is for someone entering the self-publishing field.
> 
> ...


This is a hard question because self-publishing is such a volatile industry. What you make one month WILL vary by the next month. So you can't lump anyone into one category because it will change month by month and year by year. Maybe you could get a better answer once you had a few years of data per person, but again, someone could be making "C" option money one year and then fall back down to the "A" option the next.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Can hypothetical person consistently write books that people want to read and learn to present them in a professional and appealing manner that fulfills reader expectation? If yes, I'd say achieving a decent income is possible. If not... well...

Percentages mean nothing. Every single writer will be different. Either you can do the above (or learn to do the above) or you can't/don't. If you can't, I agree with Patty.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

If you're consistently losing money, you're doing something wrong. I would take a long hard look at the kind of books you're writing and how you're presenting them to readers.


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Here's the problem. This is a LOT like asking what the income expectations are for an actor.

Sure, there are people making millions. There are people who never get a paycheck. 

The problem is, you don't know which group you fall into until you start doing it. Even then, it's hard to know if you can jump ponds.

It's possible to make money. It is also possible to pay to publish. At the end of the day, there are a lot more people buying dinner with their royalty checks than living off of them.


----------



## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

I would spin this argument just a bit.
I looked up the difference between an author and a write a good while ago.

An author writes what they want and love

A writer can focus on what sells.

If hot paranormal werewolf mating is IN then a writer will write that and make money as they stay on the curve of 'popular' and 'mainstream'.  If Deathlands makes a comeback then they will follow that formula.

Loads of writers make good money while they are on the curve and hit popular.  Pen names become popular.
An author would have a harder time of it because this is about loving what they write.  There are always audiences for that.  But that could be 10 people  who find your books on becoming a realtor and the do's and don'ts.  Or it could be 200,000 people who love your space opera.

Every argument is correct because nothing is 'wrong'  it is all dependent on the individual.  

Write those books with love (and make sure they are good quality), if you make enough back to cover the costs and then the promos?  Groovy.
My 3 SF books have repaid almost all the expenses since release starting in May.  

wow, sorry I feel like I am mouthing platitudes..... oh oh wife coming.  Me grunt now


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

tomgermann said:


> An author writes what they want and love
> 
> A writer can focus on what sells.


Where do these definitions come from? They sound like [%#^+] to me.


----------



## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

I think putting it down as a numbers game is somewhat misleading. I just don't think there are that many people doing self publishing well (most of them who are seem to be on these boards).

It's like that thing about if you have 100 "writers" in a room. Half will never start their book. Half of that half will never go beyond the first chapter. Half of that half will never finish etc etc until you have the 1 person who has a decent book.

I suspect that is the price of entry to self publishing, and you could go down a similar rabbit hole with 100 of the people who *did* finish a book. Half will not invest in a cover, half will not invest in editing, half will not do marketing, half will not publish in a popular market etc etc. 

Maybe I'm wrong, and obviously nothing is guaranteed, but it seems to me *a lot* of writers don't self publish well (again, not the people here), and that may contribute to the huge percentage of people who never get anywhere.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I see an awful lot of unbranded/not professionally made covers, here and everywhere, often attached to authors who say things like, "It's all luck." Covers are an easy thing to fix (and don't have to be that expensive), but in today's market, they're likely to be a dealbreaker. Likewise editing. 

CAN you have a bestseller with crappy editing and a crap cover? Yes. But you're putting obstacles in your way. This isn't 2012. There's a huge pile of books out there, readers are pickier, and a lot of authors have upped their game. If what you want is to SELL--present your book absolutely as well as it can be presented, at the very least. If you're not a professional cover artist or you don't sell a million books with your not-really-that-great covers (and there are people like that)--fix the d*mn covers. Give yourself a shot. 

(Sorry for the bluntness. What really kills me are the people who talk a lot about how you have to write to market, but have covers that are nowhere CLOSE to good enough for their market. Fix the cover! Fix the cover!)

OK, I'm done. Back to the book.


----------



## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

.

Understand that writers and publishers post a million new books a year to Amazon. That's on top of the millions already up there. Competition is fierce. It's all a Rush and the gold is scarce.
Keep the day job until you see the money coming in regularly!
Take the kids to the fast food place when you get a check for enough to cover it. Take the spouse/so for a coffee with your earnings. Celebrate! Many, the 95-99%, stay at this level. 

Make the decision to stay at Amazon and write many books or go wide with big advertising and not writing so many books because you are managing the process as a publisher. Either path can be a success but don't get lost in the wrong one for you.

Make sure to print a few physical books via Createspace to show around to family/friends so they see the words wrapped in fancy artwork, and they will say 'you're a writer!'. Otherwise they have no idea what it is you do, ebooks are like wizards and fusion drives for most.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

RightHoJeeves said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, and obviously nothing is guaranteed, but it seems to me *a lot* of writers don't self publish well (*again, not the people here*), and that may contribute to the huge percentage of people who never get anywhere.


C'mon, you can't say something like that and then say that those kinds of authors can't be found here. They definitely can.



Rosalind J said:


> If you're not a professional cover artist or you don't sell a million books with your not-really-that-great covers (and there are people like that)--fix the d*mn covers. Give yourself a shot.


I'm neither a professional cover artist nor do I sell a million books (but then again, who does?) but my covers are pretty damn good. Now for my UF series I'm definitely hiring a professional designer because I know I can't make the kind of covers I'll need for that genre. I think if you don't have an eye for this kind of thing, you definitely should get professional covers. If you do, you can save money and make your own. Same goes for editing as well.


----------



## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Kam K Nash said:


> More specifically, imagine you had 100 such friends. How many do you think would fall I into each of the following four categories:
> 
> (A) lose money or make a trivial amount
> (B) make some nice "cool, but still keep your day job" money
> ...


In May 2016, Data Guy spidered Amazon.com to collect data on author earnings through print books, eBooks, and audio books and multiplied that day's earnings by 365 to determine estimates of annual earnings. After crunching the data on 1 million data points, he found the following:

Nearly 9,900 author names (out of 884,344 eBook author names) are earning at least US$10,000 a year selling print books, eBooks, and audio books on Amazon.com alone. That includes paperbacks, hard covers, eBooks, and audio books and doesn't include sales on Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.de, other online retailers, etc. This is the top 1.1% of eBook author names. Even if we estimate that only 2/3 of a self-published author's income is earned on Amazon.com (since more than 1.1% of authors earn $10K annually if we combine earnings from all retailers), that's probably less than 2 out of 100 in category (B).

More than 4,600 authors are earning US$25,000 or more per year just from their sales on Amazon.com. That's 0.52% of eBook author names. Estimating that only 2/3 of a self-published author's income is earned on Amazon.com puts this group at less than 1 out of 100 in the low end of category (C).

More than 2,500 author names are earning at least US$50,000 a year selling print books, eBooks, and audio books on Amazon.com alone. That's the top 0.28% of eBook author names. Pretty close to 0 out of 100 at the high end of category (C).



> although I'm happy to hear very precise guesses, I'm mostly interested in how many of the 100 friends end up in "C."


1 or less. Emphasis on the less. Don't quit your day job just yet.



> Some clarifications: Clearly, people have different ideas about how much income puts you in each category. So I'll suggest $20,000/year as the bottom of "C" (this is a bit less than the median personal income in the USA of $24,000) and $60,000 for the top of "C."


FYI, according to the Social Security Administration, the median personal income in 2014 (the last year for which data is available) was $28,851.21. Even if you publish your novel in October, the money you earn will be spent in 2017, so I'd suggest using $30K as your benchmark, or a little below, as you suggest, $25K, for the low end of (C).



> Also, there will no doubt be huge differences based on genre (an author who writes romance and an author who writes historical fiction will likely not have identical prospects). So guesses across a range of genres (e.g., romance, sci-fi/fantasy, young adult, literary fiction) would be welcome.


The majority of the high earners in Data Guy's dataset wrote romances. If you're interested in which sub-genres are the best moneymakers, I crunched the data Data Guy collected in January 2016. (I'll do this again after the Sept. 2016 author earnings report is available.)

Here are the top 60 subcategories for daily author earnings per title, Jan. 2016:


SUBCATEGORYAVG DAILY AUTHOR INCOME PER TITLETOTAL DAILY AUTHOR INCOMENUMBER TITLESAVG PAGESKindle > Romance > Paranormal > Angels$178.72$27344.09153304.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > World Literature > German$172.75$10883.4763411.3Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Kidnapping$163.01$21028.56129306.8Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Ghosts$154.12$28666.02186308.7Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Historical Fiction > German$154.12$14949.4597470.3Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Supernatural > Witches & Wizards$144.30$9090.5963304.1Books > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Science Fiction & Dystopian$142.18$19620.30138372.3Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Psychological$141.00$19599.08139376.9Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Psychics$140.09$30818.94220295.2Books > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Paranormal$137.05$18090.61132402.0Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Demons & Devils$131.29$29539.29225300.6Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Conspiracies$130.60$31344.22240364.1Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense$124.82$998.568335.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime$124.69$11097.0289356.8Kindle > Children's > Growing Up & Facts of Life > Family Life > Orphans & Foster Homes$123.22$9980.8181261.1Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Historical Fiction > Italian$122.78$10927.5589418.0Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Crime > Kidnapping$119.07$23456.74197306.3Kindle > Cookbooks, Food & Wine > Gastronomy$118.02$118.021239.0Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Conspiracies$117.00$27261.08233362.8Kindle > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age$110.28$35179.70319353.4Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Humorous$110.21$9037.2482364.5Kindle > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age$109.91$25498.92232347.7Books > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Domestic Life$109.69$28628.65261327.4Books > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Fantasy$107.76$17564.47163344.8Books > Literature & Fiction > World Literature > European > German$107.23$10937.79102375.5Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Witches & Wizards$106.94$33364.05312298.1Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age$105.35$34026.55323336.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Literary$105.06$37189.47354346.7Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Historical$102.04$16836.80165315.8Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense > Occult$100.79$10482.25104349.1Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > New Adult & College$100.16$33253.30332297.1Kindle > Romance > New Adult & College$97.90$64808.22662260.1Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense > Paranormal$95.98$10462.19109354.8Books > Romance > Vampires$93.66$29595.91316300.9Books > Children's > Growing Up & Facts of Life > Family Life > Orphans & Foster Homes$92.07$10035.75109270.1Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Vampires$91.26$29843.48327317.1Books > Romance > New Adult & College$90.48$69941.16773264.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Fantasy$89.23$11688.48131247.3Books > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Sisters$85.32$3327.6339365.3Kindle > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy$84.93$84.931373.0Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Sagas$83.78$23709.61283330.9Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Technothrillers$83.28$13824.78166375.7Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Political$82.20$11672.93142392.4Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Literary Fiction > Sagas$74.49$16535.78222444.9Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Political$73.03$16724.99229405.1Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Exploration$72.41$12961.90179322.7Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Werewolves & Shifters$71.90$40838.85568232.8Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Detective$71.87$4743.3066314.8Kindle > Humor & Entertainment$71.54$143.072332.0Kindle > Sports & Outdoors > Outdoors & Nature > Hiking & Camping$70.00$70.001347.0Kindle > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Space Exploration$69.57$10574.67152340.4Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Espionage$68.92$19092.09277394.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Humor$68.72$18279.82266317.4Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Family Life$67.81$37770.21557313.3Kindle > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Paranormal & Fantasy$67.51$23561.44349358.2Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Crime$66.78$33992.20509322.6Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Family Life$66.56$36210.74544313.0Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Espionage$66.51$18622.07280391.3Kindle > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban$66.45$67309.801013330.7Books > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Contemporary Women$66.30$100843.231521299.4


----------



## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

Hey NeedWant.  Sorry that is just my simple paraphrasing.  There was a lot more in the article that I read but that was over 2 years ago and that was the distilled message that sits in my brain.  

I love this thread.

One thing I am beginning to understand more clearly now is a LOT of authors out there do NOT look for kboards or other assistance.  Or do not know how to find it.  I find that amazing.

I was under the belief that people serious about writing would have found kboards or other forums and be working that system.  Yet there are millions of ebooks up and I've seen some issues with a few.  It just did not compute for me.  But it makes a lot more of what I see make sense.

Going back to finish that novella and then edit a past book.  work needs to be done.


----------



## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

Super great data pull, Gator.

I would suggest before everyone starts writing Angel romances, though, that you remember that this is just a snapshot and a single number 1 book can skew the data completely. Also, I can tell some of the categories are getting skewed by romances in non-romance categories (kidnapping, for example.)



Gator said:


> Here are the top 60 subcategories for daily author earnings per title, Jan. 2016:
> 
> 
> SUBCATEGORYAVG DAILY AUTHOR INCOME PER TITLETOTAL DAILY AUTHOR INCOMENUMBER TITLESAVG PAGESKindle > Romance > Paranormal > Angels$178.72$27344.09153304.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > World Literature > German$172.75$10883.4763411.3Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Kidnapping$163.01$21028.56129306.8Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Ghosts$154.12$28666.02186308.7Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Historical Fiction > German$154.12$14949.4597470.3Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Supernatural > Witches & Wizards$144.30$9090.5963304.1Books > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Science Fiction & Dystopian$142.18$19620.30138372.3Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Psychological$141.00$19599.08139376.9Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Psychics$140.09$30818.94220295.2Books > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Paranormal$137.05$18090.61132402.0Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Demons & Devils$131.29$29539.29225300.6Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Conspiracies$130.60$31344.22240364.1Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense$124.82$998.568335.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime$124.69$11097.0289356.8Kindle > Children's > Growing Up & Facts of Life > Family Life > Orphans & Foster Homes$123.22$9980.8181261.1Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Historical Fiction > Italian$122.78$10927.5589418.0Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Crime > Kidnapping$119.07$23456.74197306.3Kindle > Cookbooks, Food & Wine > Gastronomy$118.02$118.021239.0Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Conspiracies$117.00$27261.08233362.8Kindle > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age$110.28$35179.70319353.4Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Humorous$110.21$9037.2482364.5Kindle > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age$109.91$25498.92232347.7Books > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Domestic Life$109.69$28628.65261327.4Books > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Fantasy$107.76$17564.47163344.8Books > Literature & Fiction > World Literature > European > German$107.23$10937.79102375.5Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Witches & Wizards$106.94$33364.05312298.1Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age$105.35$34026.55323336.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Literary$105.06$37189.47354346.7Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Historical$102.04$16836.80165315.8Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense > Occult$100.79$10482.25104349.1Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > New Adult & College$100.16$33253.30332297.1Kindle > Romance > New Adult & College$97.90$64808.22662260.1Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense > Paranormal$95.98$10462.19109354.8Books > Romance > Vampires$93.66$29595.91316300.9Books > Children's > Growing Up & Facts of Life > Family Life > Orphans & Foster Homes$92.07$10035.75109270.1Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Vampires$91.26$29843.48327317.1Books > Romance > New Adult & College$90.48$69941.16773264.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Fantasy$89.23$11688.48131247.3Books > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Sisters$85.32$3327.6339365.3Kindle > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy$84.93$84.931373.0Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Sagas$83.78$23709.61283330.9Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Technothrillers$83.28$13824.78166375.7Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Political$82.20$11672.93142392.4Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Literary Fiction > Sagas$74.49$16535.78222444.9Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Political$73.03$16724.99229405.1Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Exploration$72.41$12961.90179322.7Kindle > Romance > Paranormal > Werewolves & Shifters$71.90$40838.85568232.8Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Detective$71.87$4743.3066314.8Kindle > Humor & Entertainment$71.54$143.072332.0Kindle > Sports & Outdoors > Outdoors & Nature > Hiking & Camping$70.00$70.001347.0Kindle > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Space Exploration$69.57$10574.67152340.4Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Espionage$68.92$19092.09277394.6Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Humor$68.72$18279.82266317.4Kindle > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Family Life$67.81$37770.21557313.3Kindle > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Paranormal & Fantasy$67.51$23561.44349358.2Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Crime$66.78$33992.20509322.6Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Family Life$66.56$36210.74544313.0Kindle > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Espionage$66.51$18622.07280391.3Kindle > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban$66.45$67309.801013330.7Books > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Contemporary Women$66.30$100843.231521299.4


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

If you take the time to hone your craft and learn the marketing and business side of things, then it's very possible to do well. Once you publish, you are a publisher, which means you're running a small business. Publishing has cheap start up costs compared to other businesses, but it's still going to cost you time, money, and energy. No one can say how much you'll make, just like no one can say how much you'll make in any other business. There are too many factors.

As said above, most people who want to write a novel won't. Most people who write a novel, won't rewrite it as much as they should. Most of those people won't give it the cover and editing it deserves. Most of those people won't work their marketing. It goes on and on. Publishing and marketing are separate skills than writing, and it takes time and energy to learn those things.

Most people will lose money or make very little. But the people who make the most money are usually the people who are treating publishing like a business. That doesn't meaning writing crap. It does mean writing in a hot genre and being aware of what readers want.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

tomgermann said:


> Hey NeedWant. Sorry that is just my simple paraphrasing. There was a lot more in the article that I read but that was over 2 years ago and that was the distilled message that sits in my brain.


It just reeks of Special Snowflake Syndrome to me. _I write what I love, therefore I'm an Author. You write to market, therefore you're just a lowly writer._


----------



## EvanPickering (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm glad to say this is my first year publishing and I'm in the C) category. I'm dying to get my next book out, I'm in the editing stages now but I'll admit I'm feeling the pressure to get the book done and published already. It's crazy how the clock ticks in your head once the race starts, so to speak!

Anyway, I'm sure i'll calm down at some point. Like when I pub book 2


----------



## archaeoroutes (Oct 12, 2014)

My optimistic expectation was  £10 a month. Currently I'm hitting about £1000 a month on book 1.
Would I give up my regular job? No. Not even if I had a million pound windfall. I love teaching, and believe I am doing a good thing. I might drop some of the extra responsibilities, perhaps even go part-time, but I'd want to keep the core bits if the job.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

The two lowest categories:
Kindle > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban	$66.45	$67309.80	1013	330.7
Books > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Contemporary Women	$66.30	$100843.23	1521	299.4

This puts my sales in perspective.


----------



## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

I came into this gig in 2012 b/c I had been told ‘you gotta write the book’. Two months and 90K words later I typed ‘The End’. 
Whoop dee frikkin’ doo. 

But I found a home for my efforts. I’m not the type who plays well w/ others; I’m a good guy, I’m just not built that way. I prefer working alone to being in a group setting. 

Life situation has such a huge impact on taking on something like this. I’m in my late 50’s, and my wife and I are empty nesters. The funny thing is she caught the bug not long after me and just like me wrote her first book in 60 days.

Uhhh… news flash. Her book sucked almost as badly as my first one. How bad? SOOOO bad the MS’s are in a drawer and shall stay there to the end of time!

We both have degrees, which means we’re familiar with the concept of delayed gratification for a long period of time in order to learn stuff. And there is so, so much to learn, and you can only learn by doing in this gig. When I start a project now, I follow King’s advice and write every day till I hit ‘The End’.

Since we’re both Rusch/Smith wannabees, my wife and I proof each other’s work as we go. We tried editors, and decided we can do a fair job ourselves. We tried book designers, and came to the conclusion that the graphic websites that are out there provided enough instruction for us to create fairly good covers. And I’m anal retentive over a cover; I’m glad I enjoy the task.

Together we pull in about 30-50K/year. Which is plenty for us. We have other passive income streams and we’re incredibly happy and living comfortably. 

I’m not humble bragging (sheesh, even at 50K/year I feel second rate sometimes! Lol), I do have a couple of points:

-	If you’re new to this gig, you better be willing to put in a TON of hours with ABSOLUTELY no payback. I’m not saying you won’t jump out of the gate; I’m telling you the downside.  It took us more than three years f/t to break $15.00/day in sales. Who am I kidding- two years in we made $9.00 in the month of September. With about 10 books up. No typo; nine bucks. 

-	We were students in this. We sucked up all we could about craft, marketing, promotion etc. That takes time. For example, we were on an outline kick and it took a full day to read and digest ‘Take Off Your Pants’ by Libbey Hawker. We got into story arcs per Karen Woodward and had to spend a lot of time reading the material put out by Dwight Swain.  And don’t get me started on Fox’s work about his ‘To Market’ series! The guy’s a frikkin genius. 

One good thing we did was give ourselves a lot of permission to screw up. Cuz that’s how ya learn. 

Make no mistake, mmmkaaay? I do this for the dough. I enjoy doing it, and I’ve gotten okay at it. And the dough’s fine for me. But it’s a biznezz. I’m not the first person to say this is a long game, but that one fact bears repeating.


----------



## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

The numbers are from an an analysis that Phoenix Sullivan posted earlier this year. Take her numbers and plot them and do a curve fit and this is what you get. You sell a much higher peak number to hit rank but these come from her numbers to sustain rank. I posted this earlier this year. I noted that it was lowe than the numbers we had from the AE report at the beginning of the year but not spectacularly so. BTW to be in the top 10 in most print categories you need to sell about 20,000 books a week which is about 2,800 per day. Publishers Weekly prints sales data by title every week.


----------



## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

Too many variables. Best to see it all and be very humble in your approach. I know authors who make just enough each month to enjoy a nice dessert drink from Starbucks to authors who've completely changed their lives around. I recall listening to a podcast before this summer where an author used their earnings to buy a very grand house. Others have been able to send their children to better schools and even pay their children's tuition with their money.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

The wonderful thing about being an indie author is that you don't have to be a huge star to earn a decent living. My average author rank on Amazon is probably around #1500, over the last two years. I've been as low as #6000 and as high as #78 on Amazon. These days, I'm usually around #1000. I released a new book last week and am currently #521. On the day it was released, I was #241 and earned over $1500 that day. There are a good many authors selling quite a bit more than me, yet I'm a full timer earning six times what I used to make at my day job. Big Publishing doesn't even know who I am, yet I earn as much or more than many of their A-list authors. That's because I do the work the publishers do (and a lot of what they won't do), and I keep their share or the royalties.


----------



## Dale Ivan Smith (Oct 13, 2015)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> The wonderful thing about being an indie author is that you don't have to be a huge star to earn a decent living. My average author rank on Amazon is probably around #1500, over the last two years. I've been as low as #6000 and as high as #78 on Amazon. These days, I'm usually around #1000. I released a new book last week and am currently #521. On the day it was released, I was #241 and earned over $1500 that day. There are a good many authors selling quite a bit more than me, yet I'm a full timer earning six times what I used to make at my day job. Big Publishing doesn't even know who I am, yet I earn as much or more than many of their A-list authors. That's because I do the work the publishers do (and a lot of what they won't do), and I keep their share or the royalties.


Wayne,

This gives a new indie novelist like myself hope and inspiration. Your wonderful "Blue Collar to No Collar" did likewise. I'm set to release Book #1 in my new series in November, and Book #2 in January/February. My first goal is to earn enough to pay for my publishing expenses, and then work my way up my income goal ladder--I love the way you laid that in your book 

Thanks!


----------



## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Dale Ivan Smith said:


> Wayne,
> 
> This gives a new indie novelist like myself hope and inspiration. Your wonderful "Blue Collar to No Collar" did likewise. I'm set to release Book #1 in my new series in November, and Book #2 in January/February. My first goal is to earn enough to pay for my publishing expenses, and then work my way up my income goal ladder--I love the way you laid that in your book
> 
> Thanks!


Thanks, Dale. I'm glad others are getting some motivation from No Collar. If you're grandma was a writer, she'd likely give you the same kind of no-nonsense advice.


----------



## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> The wonderful thing about being an indie author is that you don't have to be a huge star to earn a decent living. My average author rank on Amazon is probably around #1500, over the last two years. I've been as low as #6000 and as high as #78 on Amazon. These days, I'm usually around #1000. I released a new book last week and am currently #521. On the day it was released, I was #241 and earned over $1500 that day. There are a good many authors selling quite a bit more than me, yet I'm a full timer earning six times what I used to make at my day job. Big Publishing doesn't even know who I am, yet I earn as much or more than many of their A-list authors. That's because I do the work the publishers do (and a lot of what they won't do), and I keep their share or the royalties.


I love this! Yeah, as much as most authors dream of having that breakout, runaway success bestseller, that is like a 0.00000001% chance of happening, even these days with publishing wide open to everyone. But writers can still make a really nice living. Back when I was submitting to agents and editors (for so many years!) "the mid list" were the authors that sold mass market paperbacks of their books reasonably well, but never became "bestsellers". Still, a staggering number of them weren't making enough to replace day job income. Even worse, their publisher could choose not to contract any more books for their series at any time, if their sales numbers didn't meet expectations. So maybe their series didn't take off with book 1 or book 2 - that meant they didn't get a book 3. And as we see a lot with indie authors, a lot of times a series won't really pick up until book 3, or 4, or even 5! Meanwhile those same sales numbers applied to an indie series these days could actually make the author a decent living as they keep publishing books in the series.

I have a couple of writer friends still on the hamster wheel of trying to traditionally publish. When they found out I was going indie, they asked me some questions. They were shocked by my choice, because I'd had an agent willing to shop my books to traditional publishers, and to them, that was the golden ticket. I explained that my agent told me my genre is more "niche" and while it has readers, publishers don't really know how to market it (SFR), so I should expect a small advance. I asked how small. She said $3000. I've been an indie for about 6 months and I've almost made that. I have no doubt when my next book comes out before the end of the year, I'll surpass my "expected advance". When I shared this with my friends, they were shocked and appalled that I would be offered so little for a traditional contract. They still believe in the "pie in the sky" dream of big advances. And despite my experience, they are still shopping their stuff to agents as far as I know.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Thanks, Dale. I'm glad others are getting some motivation from No Collar. If you're grandma was a writer, she'd likely give you the same kind of no-nonsense advice.


I'm a grandma and I agree. I only hit the top 100 with my free books and that's with a promotion. Yet, I make a steady living too. I'm not rich like some and probably never will be, but I'm paying all the bills and helping my grandchildren. It's enough for me.


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't have great expectations. As long as I can earn enough to pay for the expenses of the next book, with enough left over for me to save  to get me on vacation to see my family for the month of August next year (A six thousand mile flight for me and my wife) then I'll be very happy, because I won't have been home for three years. The way its going, I might just make it... fingers crossed. Of course, I'd love to make it rich, wouldn't we all? We all live by different means and we are at different stages in our lives, with different expectations,  ambitions, and responsibilities, but really there are easier ways to make a living, either employed, or in business. I wouldn't have started this adventure if it was to make money, that's for sure. Still, you never know your luck in a lottery, which is what self-publishing is for most.


----------



## JeanetteRaleigh (Jan 1, 2013)

Cherise's post seems pretty close to me...I've been at this for four years and while making more than I did at the start and having a few fantastic months, still need my day job.


----------



## blubarry (Feb 27, 2015)

I think it comes down to many factors, including luck, but you have to be willing to put the work in and have a willingness to look at your work with a critical eye. When I started self publishing about 3 years ago, I followed some advice I now know to be flawed. The advice was outdated and said by those who I believed knew what they were talking about. It set me down the wrong path for a good year until I stepped back and started looking at those who had recently succeeded, and started piecing together what worked for them. 

Others have said many of the same suggestions, but what I've found works is writing in series, frequent releases, pick a popular genre, some promos (but not as important as writing and releasing), and not the least, having great covers. I got in with an awesome cover designer before she really took off, and I think her covers have made a huge difference for me. 

For those starting out, I think the key is not listening to all the noise, but rather focusing on who is currently having success, how are they doing it, and what can you learn from them. Take from them what you can, knowing there will be many paths to success. Keep working, keep getting better, and I really believe anyone can get to C (and D) if they stay with it and have a willingness to change and adapt as needed.


----------



## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

thelma said:


> Interesting thread! Apart from what has already been posted on this topic, I found a thread called "How Much does an Average Self-publisher Make on Amazon?" on quora.com.
> 
> https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-an-average-self-publishing-author-make-on-Amazon
> 
> Thelma


I took a look at the article and was shocked to say the least. The first paragraph:

_I don't think there is an "average" - the vast majority of books sell less than ten copies. $100 a year, as John K. says, is a good guess, but if that's "average", consider than 50% of the books published don't make even that much. Actually I'd bet it's far more than 50%. In my experience, at least 90% of books will fail, maybe even 95-99%. "Fail"= earn less than $100 a year._

If 90% of books being published make less than $100 a year, then I am horrified. Surely they just wouldn't bother any more? (not including that small percentage that write for the pleasure and genuinely don't mind if only two people read the book they sweated over for months and months).

I do agree that the majority fall in to group A, and end up making a loss after expenses, but still .... less than $100 a year??  Is that actually true or just wild speculation on the part of the article writer?


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

This is a 2014 survey & article. Not perfect methodology, but good numbers. (9,000 authors surveyed.) However, as Hugh Howey notes in the article, this survey probably underreports the earning potential of self-published authors. The Author Earnings Report is interesting in this light--but note it too is only looking at a higher level of authors--those who are selling SOMETHING. At least I think that's the latest one. They're drilling ever farther down, but still not capturing all the 6 million ebooks or whatever it is on Amazon. (And only looking at Amazon, of course.)

According to this survey, 54% of traditionally published authors and 80% of self-published authors earned less than $1,000 a year in 2014.

All I know is, thanks to self-publishing (and the possibility it affords of being hybrid and getting some of the best of both worlds), a lot of authors can now earn FAR more than they would have traditionally. While the gigantic gold-ring grabbers, the Lee Childs and Nora Roberts-es, will still probably do better tradpubbed, with their million-dollar deals and their paperbacks all over the place, self-pubbing seems to offer a much better chance at quit-the-day-job money eventually, if you're capable of writing an engaging story in a genre people want to read, and presenting and promoting it well. (Which is a lot of "if's," of course, but still--quitting the day job is mighty nice!)

http://publishingperspectives.com/2014/01/how-much-do-writers-earn-less-than-you-think/#.V98VhLX89K0


----------



## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm going to echo what Patty said ... don't go into this with the expectation of finding a gold mine. Go in because you LOVE to write, and you want to do it everyday.


----------



## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

Rosalind J said:


> This is a 2014 survey & article. Not perfect methodology, but good numbers. (9,000 authors surveyed.) However, as Hugh Howey notes in the article, this survey probably underreports the earning potential of self-published authors. The Author Earnings Report is interesting in this light--but note it too is only looking at a higher level of authors--those who are selling SOMETHING. At least I think that's the latest one. They're drilling ever farther down, but still not capturing all the 6 million ebooks or whatever it is on Amazon. (And only looking at Amazon, of course.)
> 
> According to this survey, 54% of traditionally published authors and 80% of self-published authors earned less than $1,000 a year in 2014.
> 
> ...


I agree, Rosalind! I look at it like this - even though it SEEMS like there is all this popular wisdom about self-publishing that we see daily on kboards and in author groups we're in, for seriously like 90% of the people who self-pub a book, all of that stuff doesn't even exist for them. They haven't researched indie publishing or devised a marketing strategy before they hit publish. I bet a bunch of people write their first book and put it up on amazon without researching a single thing beyond how to make a cover. I can't tell you the number of writer-savvy people I know, people who have been trying to get an agent or a publishing contract for years, who have NO idea that indie is a viable income earning possibility, or even if they think it might be, they still think the "big dollars" dream is squarely in traditional publishing's corner. (Just like those two friends I talk about above who gave me looks of horror when I told them the dollar amount of my prospective advance. They still gave me fake smiles and sunny "Good for you! Good luck with that." comments when I told them I was going indie and why.) And of those who do indie publish, there is the whole gambit, from people like my husband's cousin, who put together a cookbook and published it... ("It was such a fun project! Isn't writing a great hobby just for fun?" <- This is what she said to me when she found out I write and publish fiction. It was like she was talking about a Pinterest crafting project we were both into.) ...to people like an author I know who has published something like eight books over the last 2-3 years and has yet to gain traction over $1000/year. She's a great writer. She has good covers, good blurbs, and she reads all of the advice and follows it...but she writes what she loves, and it isn't really "to market". It's really specific niche stuff that isn't what Big 5 would call "commercial fiction". So, even being serious about this business and doing All The Things is no guarantee.

Of everyone who publishes each year on Amazon, I'd be REALLY interested in the figures of:

1. How many authors publish more than 1 book in a year...or ever? Meaning, how many try it, don't get traction and quit after only 1 book, or even only 2?

2. How many books are being published in series, and how many as standalones, and what are those figures for books making over $100 or $1000?

3. Of those who consistently publish, say, 3 or more books per year in a series, what percentage of those are making more than $1000/year?

I remember reading a thread once where a newbie asked "How long before I will be making a real income with my books?" He hadn't published a single book yet, and one of the first replies to his thread was "Most books published on Amazon never even make $100, ever. Of those that do, only a very tiny percentage ever make more than $1000. Don't quit your day job, and don't go into this to make money." However statistically true that statement might be, I find it an extremely simplistic viewpoint (and a pretty negative response to a newbie who probably just had all of their hopes and dreams crushed beneath a huge dose of reality.) If someone goes into this with an eye to making it their primary income and treats it like a business, is willing to put in the time and work, AND they have the passion to back it up, there is no reason they can't succeed. It isn't all luck. It's hard work, it's finding your audience and writing books that you both love and that have a commercial appeal of some kind. You don't have to be Nora Roberts, but you do have to write books that people want to read and then figure out how to market them effectively. And not quit.


----------



## Sara C (Apr 30, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> I'm going to echo what Patty said ... don't go into this with the expectation of finding a gold mine. Go in because you LOVE to write, and you want to do it everyday.


This. Seriously, expect _nothing_. Don't quit your day job until you're positive you can consistenly support yourself. For most, it will take time. I'm like Patty in that my books aren't particularly high ranking on Amazon, but I'm about to release my 13th, and about 45% of my income comes from non-zon vendors, so don't just books just based on Amazon ranking.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Sara C said:


> This. Seriously, expect _nothing_.


That's not a good way to run any business. There are so many things we can control as indies now that expecting "nothing" from this venture is not an option unless this is just a side hobby or a fun experiment for you.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

NeedWant said:


> That's not a good way to run any business. There are so many things we can control as indies now that expecting "nothing" from this venture is not an option unless this is just a side hobby or a fun experiment for you.


It also makes zero sense to "run it like a business" (which sounds like an excuse to sink a buttload of cash into service providers) unless you know that your fiction has legs and/or you have decided that this self-publishing gig is for you.


----------



## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

Patty Jansen said:


> It also makes zero sense to "run it like a business" (which sounds like an excuse to sink a buttload of cash into service providers) unless you know that your fiction has legs and/or you have decided that this self-publishing gig is for you.


I guess my perspective is different, but I went into this after nearly 30 years of beating my head against the brick wall of traditional publishing. I've BEEN traditionally published, I had an agent and knew she could sell my stuff...but I felt indie made better business sense for me to make an actual career and a living out of this, which has always been my dream. So I can't imagine going into this and NOT thinking of it that way. If you're in it just as a hobby, why worry about income at all? And, if you don't love it, for goodness sake go do something else that you do love. (Not you, you, Patty. I've been around long enough to know you love it. I'm saying you in the generic author sense. ) Am I sinking some money into promo? Yes. But strategically and carefully as I release my books and build my following. I've been published for 6 months as of September, and last month was my first $1000+ month with 2 books out. I know others have done far better out of the gate, but I'm happy with the way my business is building so far.

OTOH, I would definitely not suggest people struggling to get sales go out and throw a bunch of money at promo and services. Be strategic.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Patty Jansen said:


> It also makes zero sense to "run it like a business" (which sounds like an excuse to sink a buttload of cash into service providers) unless you know that your fiction has legs and/or you have decided that this self-publishing gig is for you.


Costs can be very minimal if the author can do their own covers and editing. The only real cost for me was promo and I more than made up what I had spent. If you're a good enough writer and you know what you're doing in terms of genre and marketing, "nothing" is unacceptable.


----------



## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> It also makes zero sense to "run it like a business" (which sounds like an excuse to sink a buttload of cash into service providers) unless you know that your fiction has legs and/or you have decided that this self-publishing gig is for you.


I don't think sinking a buttload of cash into service providers is "running it like a business". Running it like a business doesn't mean hiring a $10k PR person, it means working towards a professional product that could get you a return. Besides, not putting in a bit of money for editing/covers/usual stuff would just put up obstacles for a new author.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

If a completely new author comes to me asking about self-publishing, I tell them something that resembles Mark Dawson's Facebook advertising advice: start small. See if you can get it to work. If it does, scale up.

Mistakes are easy to fix and are oh, so easy to talk about as being obvious in hindsight. I'd say: Go and noodle around. Learn the ropes. Make mistakes. Just make sure to stay away from the expensive ones.


----------



## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

Hey needwant.  It seems like a fair number of Kboarders are authors and writers.  NOT ALL.  But I have seen several threads where they are not making much at what they love so they churn out some of what they know will sell.  

$100 is the average?
My non fiction real estate guides (for realtors) will not hit that in a year.  Ever.  But the few people who find them and may need them will benefit.  I'm okay with that.

My SF?  I think the first full month out of both books I hit over $800 US!!!!!!  I'm in Canada!  I'm buying a Leopard tank for a rec vehicle next week!  

All I can add is that I think Kboarders are MUCH more motivated and willing to listen.  Finding this site was a godsend for me and a lot of others.  
This IS also a business.  Each one of us is a contractor and needs to be careful how we bootstrap up.  not everyone will do well and there will be a turnover.  just keep fighting the good fight.
OH
and Stay Positive!


----------



## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> If a completely new author comes to me asking about self-publishing, I tell them something that resembles Mark Dawson's Facebook advertising advice: start small. See if you can get it to work. If it does, scale up.
> 
> Mistakes are easy to fix and are oh, so easy to talk about as being obvious in hindsight. I'd say: Go and noodle around. Learn the ropes. Make mistakes. Just make sure to stay away from the expensive ones.


Makes sense to me!


----------



## DC Swain (Feb 24, 2013)

TexasGirl said:


> I would suggest before everyone starts writing Angel romances, though...


What if I start writing a romance about a German angel that gets kidnapped? Sounds like a money maker to me


----------



## hunterone (Feb 6, 2013)

Kam K Nash said:


> I have a career that is unrelated to writing fiction. Over the past few months, I have spent an increasing percentage of my leisure time writing fiction (I currently have 60k on a first draft that will likely be 80k novel, a short story that is 7k, and a few more ideas for novels in my queue). As I continue to become more interested in the idea of becoming a self-published author, I've been trying to get a sense for what being a full-time author would really be like, and part of my research for that has been reading kboards daily.
> 
> Although there are many threads discussing income in various ways, and it is easy to think of the rare extraordinary successes, I am still very unsure what the range of likely outcomes is for someone entering the self-publishing field.
> 
> ...





Amanda M. Lee said:


> I know quite a few people in each group, as you've set them up, at least. No matter what, you have to put work in. I do very little marketing and focus on writing. It's worked for me. Others take different paths. No one path works for everyone.


Similar to Amanda. I focus on writing and do a small amount of marketing.

Key is being internally motivated, picking the right genre, being able to write a good story that keeps people turning and not giving up when you have several that bomb. Easier said than done but at the end of the day no one is going to hand anything to a person. You have to go out there and work your ass off.


----------



## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

I think the Zon pool as a whole would show far, FAR better odds if you took out:
People writing for love
People who quit after book 1
People who had no marketing plan, no audience or plan to find them, no clue how to sell and no inclination to learn 
People unable or unwilling to invest in edits/covers and did not have the skills to adequately DIY
People writing in weird niches like lit or poetry who didn't really expect to sell anyway
People writing one off, free or heap books to drive a back end business
Scammers

If you filtered down and looked at how many people did the research, had the skills and applied them (both to craft and business), the odds would still be small but much less demoralising 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

spellscribe said:


> I think the Zon pool as a whole would show far, FAR better odds if you took out:
> People writing for love
> People who quit after book 1
> People who had no marketing plan, no audience or plan to find them, no clue how to sell and no inclination to learn
> ...


That pretty much gives you the KBoards Writers' Cafe! And my odds from above are based on participating since 2012. 

I'm still in category B, as are most of us who are still here. Every few months we get a thread by someone who has quit their day job, about one in a hundred each year.


----------



## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

To the OP, you might be able to do it with sheer determination! (and learning quickly from mistakes)

I didn't have a day job to quit as I'd just been made redundant and decided to give writing a go. As I had a new born baby I could only commit to this part time, but I am proud to say I grafted pretty hard in the hours that I had (during naps and late at night).

It took me two years to hit Category C. But I was lucky enough to have some (piddly) maternity pay and a husband with a salary to keep our heads above water (only just) until I hit that level.

My point is that I truly believe that with dedication and some measure of ability, that if I can do it then anyone can get themselves to that point in two years. Probably less if they don't make all the mistakes that I did


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

NeedWant said:


> That's not a good way to run any business. There are so many things we can control as indies now that expecting "nothing" from this venture is not an option unless this is just a side hobby or a fun experiment for you.


Well yes. if all you consider being an author is nothing more than a business. Writing for many is a siren call that can't be avoided, a sort of an artistic calling, a must do on your bucket list that takes over your psyche. I've run many businesses in my lifetime with the intention to make a living and a profit. Anything else wasn't an option as it was to make a full time living and to support my family. With a business, if things don't work out, you have to call an immediate halt and move on to a different prime source of income, or face possible bankruptcy. Most writers don't have that problem, they can soldier on. The window of success in business is fairly urgent and immediate so as to make a living,which is why most business fail in the first two years because the need top make an income is paramount. Writing can take many more years to make a living, but without cost, other than in time.

With writing, it can be, and is in fact, an activity for the majority that is a hobby that runs alongside a career, unless you are a stay at home mom, disabled, or retired, etc, but even those have benefits to put bread on the table, or a partner as a breadwinner, so not making profit runs alongside not getting recognition for you chosen art from, which is a frustration, but not the end of life as far as income goes, and so many plod along, while still dreaming and striving for success.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Evenstar said:


> If 90% of books being published make less than $100 a year, then I am horrified. Surely they just wouldn't bother any more? (not including that small percentage that write for the pleasure and genuinely don't mind if only two people read the book they sweated over for months and months).
> 
> I do agree that the majority fall in to group A, and end up making a loss after expenses, but still .... less than $100 a year??  Is that actually true or just wild speculation on the part of the article writer?


I have a book that will make less than $100 this year. It made less than $100 last year. It's currently ranked about 981,000. Now look at all the books ranked lower. It's more than a possibility.


----------



## Guest (Sep 19, 2016)

Evenstar said:


> If 90% of books being published make less than $100 a year, then I am horrified. Surely they just wouldn't bother any more? (not including that small percentage that write for the pleasure and genuinely don't mind if only two people read the book they sweated over for months and months).


Some of us are dumb (or maybe just stupidly stubborn) and keep trying anyway  (though believe me, there are a lot of times I ask myself why I keep bothering and wasting so much money...)

Though at least one of books did make over $100 the first year. This year, probably not. Both combined haven't even hit $100 yet.


----------



## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Evenstar said:


> I took a look at the article and was shocked to say the least. The first paragraph:
> 
> _I don't think there is an "average" - the vast majority of books sell less than ten copies. $100 a year, as John K. says, is a good guess, but if that's "average", consider than 50% of the books published don't make even that much. Actually I'd bet it's far more than 50%. In my experience, at least 90% of books will fail, maybe even 95-99%. "Fail"= earn less than $100 a year._
> 
> ...


By the end of last year I had five full novels out (all with paid editing, decent covers, and good reviews), plus a few short stories, and I published my first book in 2011. Last year I made less than 100 dollars, same the year before, and the year before. I joined kboards in 2012 and was on absolutewrite for many years before then.

Not saying this to complain (this year will be much better), just to point out that those who think making less than 100 a year from a single book is unlikely must have been lucky/clever enough to release a marketable book in a hot genre first time out, and don't realize how much of a struggle it is for most first time authors.


----------



## Steve Voelker (Feb 27, 2014)

No need for guesswork. The numbers are out there. 

VERY few authors will EVER make $20k, let alone in a year. 

Making a living (Which I'd put at higher than $20K) would put you in the top 5-10% of authors.


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Too much credit is being paid to luck. If only a select few are truly "making it", it's because they are the only ones nailing the formula.


----------



## Bloom (Apr 27, 2016)

I'm soon to publish my second book in a trilogy. So far I've spent more than £1,000 setting up a website, buying ISBNs, getting covers designed, advertising, etc, and made less than £50 back, despite lots of supportive friends and consistent 5-star reviews.

So, if I had a day job (I'm unemployed) I would not be giving it up anytime soon.


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Ken Ward said:


> Too much credit is being paid to luck. If only a select few are truly "making it", it's because they are the only ones nailing the formula.


There is no magic formula, or trad-publishers would know the answer to have everyone of their authors make it, but they don't all make it to the top 5-10%. The best anyone can do is to try and mimic the steps a trad-book goes through to assure quality of product in all respects, but be able to price lower than them. After that, even with marketing, it's the luck of the draw.


----------



## blubarry (Feb 27, 2015)

Decon said:


> There is no magic formula, or trad-publishers would know the answer to have everyone of their authors make it, but they don't all make it to the top 5-10%.


There's no magic formula, and you can do all the things right and fail, but if you're not reaching your definition of success, I think it's time to step back and reflect what isn't connecting with readers. If your goal is salable fiction and to make a certain income, you have to put in work evaluating the market and what's selling in your genre. You can still write what you love, hit some of the popular tropes, and put your own spin on it. There is _some _luck, but there's a lot more work. Even well written works don't always connect with readers. The advantage of indie is being able to identify this and shift directions.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Decon said:


> There is no magic formula, or trad-publishers would know the answer to have everyone of their authors make it, but they don't all make it to the top 5-10%. The best anyone can do is to try and mimic the steps a trad-book goes through to assure quality of product in all respects. After that, even with marketing, it's the luck of the draw.


There are no guarantees of success but there are certainly strategies that can make success far more likely: writing in a popular genre and doing a good enough job of meeting reader expectations, writing in a series, genre appropriate covers, running ads on the first book in the series, etc.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Evenstar said:


> If 90% of books being published make less than $100 a year, then I am horrified. Surely they just wouldn't bother any more? (not including that small percentage that write for the pleasure and genuinely don't mind if only two people read the book they sweated over for months and months).


There's a (fleeting) promise of riches with zero barrier to entry. Plus, few indies face the "make money or starve" problem. Some have jobs. Others have spouses who support them. Still others are retired.

These circumstances encourage a "making $100/year on my book is better than making $0/year on it" mentality.

Dreams and fantasies aside, there's no real impetus to do more.


----------



## stacia_s (Jul 15, 2015)

I first self-published in 2011. YA Paranormal. One was the first book in a series and it took me over a year to get the second one out. When I did not become Amanda Hocking overnight, like an idiot I got discouraged and kind of let it all go. I just checked Amazon and in the five years since I have made like $300 on that book total, so way less than $100/year. In hindsight, I can see now that I had no idea what I was doing, had crazy high expectations and got discouraged too easily. I went to nursing school, got a regular job and sort of forgot about the whole publishing (indie or trad) and moved on with my life. Then I decided to go to graduate school and quit working because my husband is lovely enough to support me for awhile. Suddenly I had all this free time on my hands so I decided to try all of this again. 

I did my research, picked a genre that seemed to be doing well that I still really liked and put another book out. I hit publish on Aug 23rd and it's made about $600 so far this month with very little promo (a freebooksy ad and two <$5 newsletters). What's the difference? As much as I love to write and I do (wrote my first one in like 7th grade), I decided that this endeavor was only worth my time if I could actually make a little money. My next book is already finished and will publish at the end of this week and I'm halfway done writing the next. 

I don't think you have to think of this as a soulless endeavor but if you want more than luck on your side, you have to have some sort of plan. Mine is limited promo (because I don't have much spare cash), popular niche and quick releases. We'll see in the next few months how it pans out, but I'm already doing way better than last time so at least I've learned something.


----------



## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

stacia_s said:


> ...When I did not become Amanda Hocking overnight...


I'll make you feel better.

Amanda Hocking was not an overnight success. She was pushing _My Blood Approves_ for over five years to publishers and agents before she gave up. The manuscript was laid to rest in a drawer, never again to see the light of day. A while later, more than a few months before ComiCon, she decided she wanted to go see it and thought that maybe she could sell enough copies via self-publishing on Amazon to cover the cost of admission. It took months of pushing it like crazy on Facebook (this was before FB closed the door on easy promoting and sharing), but she finally made just enough sales not only to cover the cost of admission, but to pay for gas and food as well! She was happy with that.

In the months that followed, all that pushing on FB began to pay off. Her timing (and luck!) was perfect. People were becoming curious about ebooks on Amazon and with all her pushing, her book was very visible on social media. The combination of those two factors caused word of her book to go viral and sales on her book began to climb like crazy. But she had to work hard to set the foundation for that success.

As many will point out, luck does have a lot to do with it. But it takes hard work to increase that luck to a point where it can actually happen.


----------



## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

The median income in the United States is currently just under $52K per year.

The poverty line for an individual in the US is currently just under $11.7 per year; for a family of four it is just under $24K.

Important to keep in mind that these numbers are a moving target and change from quarter to quarter, depending on the economy.

I can attest that it IS possible to be able to survive at the poverty line, but you will need quite a few roommates to help you afford that apartment.


----------



## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

Kam K Nash said:


> Imagine that you know a new author who writes competently (e.g., reading the first page of her work does not lead you to throw up your hands and say "Ugh! What an amateur with no hope! I'm embarrassed on this author's behalf!"). Furthermore, this new author has paid attention to the most common advice on kboards (plans to pay for decent editing and cover design, has put some thought into how to price and market, etc.). What do you think would happen if this author tried to make writing a full-time career (e.g., each year producing multiple novels, along with some shorter works)?
> 
> More specifically, imagine you had 100 such friends. How many do you think would fall I into each of the following four categories:
> 
> ...


The true answer to this is really complex. One key factor that cannot be ignored is that the 100 authors in question are all dedicated to actually working at being a full-time author. This is a vital point. Because if they aren't all dedicated to working for the gold, the numbers change drastically.

My numbers below are based on the 2015 reports from AuthorEarnings.com, because that was when I did a numerical analysis of the report. I have not done anything quite so detailed for the 2016 reports, only to say that things improved for self-published authors, especially after the Hachette vs. Amazon debacle was concluded.

So, of the 100 friends...

If all went the traditional publishing route:

A. 98
B. 1
C. 1
D. 0 (If you push the number up to 10,000 friends, then D would be 1)

If all went the self-publishing route, but only did it on a whim and really didn't do anything else beyond clicking the self-publishing button for one book:

A. 97
B. 2
C. 1
D. 0

If all the friends really dedicated themselves to writing and working towards a career as a writer.They worked at it, promoted carefully, and went right to work on the next books. Got good editing done, good covers, paid attention to sales trends, etc. Met with fans. Corresponded and maintained a social media presence. Etc.

A. 70
B. 16
C. 13
D. 1

It is important to note that if you spread this out over about five years, a good number of friends in A & B will migrate upwards to B & C. The number of books each friend is producing will also make a difference. The more books each friend writes during this time period, the more likely they will be able to move into the C category.

D is a statistical fluke category. This is where the author gets lucky and for some reason, the author's book becomes wildly popular. It could be because a producer read the book and wanted to make a movie/TV show out of it. It could be because the author won a literary award and that generated a lot of publicity for a period of time. Or it could be that the book was touted by another, very popular author and that famous author's fans went for the friend's book and found it agreeable. Over a period of five to ten years, this category could increase to as many as four or five authors.

The numbers this is based on was an analysis in Author Earnings (2015) about how many writers succeed out of 100,000 when comparing traditionally published authors to self-published authors. The actual percentage was 2.8% for both categories. However, they were including "one-offs" in the self-publishing column. These are people who dreamed about writing a book and decided to do it, but did not do any editing or follow-up on their manuscripts. They pushed up one book and then forgot about it, going on with their lives, never again to write another book.

Of that 2.8% in both categories, there was one factor that really made a huge difference. That factor was whether or not the authors were really trying to put out quality work. For traditionally published authors, the hacks were pretty well filtered out by the publishers themselves. Only the people that worked at getting accepted by a publisher actually made it. Considering that everyone who tried to get published traditionally, only 2.8% actually made it.

But among self-published writers who worked at trying to succeed at the same level as the traditionally published writers, the success rate changes. When we remove the one-offs, suddenly the percent of writers who succeed at making a livable wage as self-published authors jumps to between *24% and 28%*, depending on where you draw the line of success.

The important thing is you must work at it. If you approach it in a half-assed way, then your earnings will be half-assed as well.


----------



## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

WDR said:


> But among self-published writers who worked at trying to succeed at the same level as the traditionally published writers, the success rate changes. When we remove the one-offs, suddenly the percent of writers who succeed at making a livable wage as self-published authors jumps to between *24% and 28%*, depending on where you draw the line of success.


When you say taking out one-offs, does that mean authors who have two or more books out? It'd be interesting to know how the percentage changes going up in a step by step way (ie three or more books, four or more books)


----------



## Keith Soares (Jan 9, 2014)

I started writing because it was a creative outlet. I self-published and thought that was that. Then I got a few sales. Then I found KBoards and learned A LOT. Then I made one or two wise decisions (and about a thousand horrible ones). 

At the moment, I am looking at book sales higher than I've ever seen them, and monthly incomes I would have found startling a couple years ago. Yet those earnings are not nearly enough to make me walk away from my day job, so I guess I'm in the middle of the pack somewhere. I see others that catch lightning in a bottle in my genre(s) and think "Why not me?" I don't think there is an answer, precisely. So I keep writing the next book.

K.


----------



## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

Bloom said:


> I'm soon to publish my second book in a trilogy. So far I've spent more than £1,000 setting up a website, buying ISBNs, getting covers designed, advertising, etc, and made less than £50 back, despite lots of supportive friends and consistent 5-star reviews.
> 
> So, if I had a day job (I'm unemployed) I would not be giving it up anytime soon.


Bloom, I've heard many times, " D  on't expect anything great with that first book. Get two, three or more out before you even bother advertising." You may do quite well -- yet. I'm sort of like you I sold over 1,000 of my first book, but then stopped. Now I'm starting again. Things are different now than they were then, but we can adapt. Still struggling, so am rewriting again and asking hubby to save every couple of days don't trust myself at the minute. Lost chunks of manuscript twice is reason I'm so paranoid.


----------



## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

I think the single most important factor deciding how many people make it into Group C is their willingness to adapt.

I can't remember where I read it but one of the best quotes I ever saw concerning this subject went something like:

You can either write what people want to read or you can write when you get home from work.

You must write to market if you want to make this whole publishing thing a career. Maybe you'll be lucky like Rosalind and what you happen to love will be to market, but if you love space opera smashed with classic literature you might want to rethink your genre choice.

I've published quite a few works that weren't exactly my cup of tea over the past three years. But it's not like it was hideous torture to work in those different genres and we've been solidly in group C.5 for each of those years.

It's way better than a day job.


----------



## Keith Blenman (May 31, 2009)

I've been self publishing for about fifteen years and I typically make enough to buy the occasional night out or a tank of gas. This past year was actually the first time I made enough to report it on my taxes. I know I'll never be rich or successful with my writing, but I love what I do. From outlining a story to holding the final paperback and blasting about it all over the Internet. Whenever I get that occasional review or Goodreads rating, I feel like a kid being complimented on his crayola art on the refrigerator. But that in itself is a pretty cool feeling. It's more than plenty. Whenever budding authors ask me about making money, I always tell them to gauge success based on the work itself and not its reward. As a self published author you probably won't ever drive a fancy car. But as long as your heart is in the story, you'll always have plenty to smile about.


----------



## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

RightHoJeeves said:


> When you say taking out one-offs, does that mean authors who have two or more books out? It'd be interesting to know how the percentage changes going up in a step by step way (ie three or more books, four or more books)


The way I understood it, the "one-offs" aren't necessarily people with only one book published. They're more like the people who only have one book in them. I think the reason self-publishing numbers can be hard to understand is that anyone can do it. There's no gate, no filter. That crazy uncle you see on the holidays who is writing a book? Twenty years ago, he was stuck photocopying his handwritten notebooks and mailing them off to New York and coming up with conspiracy theories as to why the publishers weren't calling (which I think we can all agree is something to do with "Freemasons"). Today, he can slap a cover on it and put his book up on Amazon (where the Freemasons somehow still block people people from seeing the truth, but that's a whole other issue that he'll tell you about this Christmas). In addition to him, your grandma can publish her book of family recipes, your neighbor can publish that witty memoir about life in the suburbs that actually isn't very funny, that guy you went to high school with who fancied himself a writer can publish that anthology of short stories that he'll claim more people don't buy because they aren't smart enough to understand the allegories. Then there are the people who maybe write a decent first book but they decide it's not something they want to do again because of time or money or what have you.

So finding people with multiple books published is probably a good way to filter out a lot of the data that don't pertain to people who are trying to make a real living, (except that guy from high school because you know he's going to keep publishing those anthologies, and puffing away on that pipe while wearing his velvet smoking jacket so that everyone at the reunion will know that he's a serious force in the literary world). But some of the people with only one book now will soon have two or three, and are doing the things right that they need to be doing with the intention of being full time professionals. And some of the people with many books out could be repeating the same mistakes over and over.


----------



## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

MMacLeod said:


> The way I understood it, the "one-offs" aren't necessarily people with only one book published. They're more like the people who only have one book in them. I think the reason self-publishing numbers can be hard to understand is that anyone can do it. There's no gate, no filter. That crazy uncle you see on the holidays who is writing a book? Twenty years ago, he was stuck photocopying his handwritten notebooks and mailing them off to New York and coming up with conspiracy theories as to why the publishers weren't calling (which I think we can all agree is something to do with "Freemasons"). Today, he can slap a cover on it and put his book up on Amazon (where the Freemasons somehow still block people people from seeing the truth, but that's a whole other issue that he'll tell you about this Christmas). In addition to him, your grandma can publish her book of family recipes, your neighbor can publish that witty memoir about life in the suburbs that actually isn't very funny, that guy you went to high school with who fancied himself a writer can publish that anthology of short stories that he'll claim more people don't buy because they aren't smart enough to understand the allegories. Then there are the people who maybe write a decent first book but they decide it's not something they want to do again because of time or money or what have you.
> 
> So finding people with multiple books published is probably a good way to filter out a lot of the data that don't pertain to people who are trying to make a real living, (except that guy from high school because you know he's going to keep publishing those anthologies, and puffing away on that pipe while wearing his velvet smoking jacket so that everyone at the reunion will know that he's a serious force in the literary world). But some of the people with only one book now will soon have two or three, and are doing the things right that they need to be doing with the intention of being full time professionals. And some of the people with many books out could be repeating the same mistakes over and over.


This is priceless


----------



## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

RightHoJeeves said:


> When you say taking out one-offs, does that mean authors who have two or more books out? It'd be interesting to know how the percentage changes going up in a step by step way (ie three or more books, four or more books)


Literally one book.

A significant number of self-published authors in the Amazon library are people who dreamed about writing a book and sat down to do just that. Then did no more. Most of these "one-offs" are unedited and were never proofread before they were pushed up for consumption by the public.

Whenever you read reports against self-publishing claiming that the books are poorly written, badly edited or not edited at all, and of poor quality, they are almost always using the one-offs as their examples. When big publishers say, "We are the gatekeepers!," they are using these one-offs as examples of what they are trying to keep out. I've downloaded and read a few of these. I can attest to the lack of quality in them. These are stories written by people who had a dream but put no other thought into what they were doing other than writing the words in their head. Once finished and put up into the internet for all to see, the authors went on with their lives and forgot all about writing their book.

If you want to make the path of self-publishing writers look bad, then you include these amateurs who have no intention of being serious about professional writing.

The writers we find here on KBoards represent those writers who are seriously trying to make it work; creating a career for themselves as an author. These writers are putting just as much effort into their skills as traditionally published authors. These writers put as much or more effort into getting self-published as traditionally published writers do looking for a traditional publishing contract. The work and effort does pay off.

As far as how do things improve for a self-published author depending on how many books they produce? I haven't looked in detail at those numbers. But just on casual observation looking at the authors here on KBoards, I have noticed that the majority of authors who say they are making a decent living have at least a minimum of four books published. Again, strictly my own casual observation:

1 book = minimal financial performance
2 books = extra pocket money each month
3 books = sudden increase in sales, resulting in second income
4 books = more authors who say they are doing well reporting at least a minimal living wage; cutting hours out of the day job or leaving it altogether to devote to writing.
5 or more books = I notice more authors reporting they are now full time writing with no other job.

I should stress, this list is rather self-limiting to those works that most would consider a good read and the author has a fairly good writing style. That makes sense. Good writers are going to see some success. This list doesn't take time into consideration. There are writers who have been cranking out many works for years who may only now have been discovered and others who have just a couple of titles available who got lucky and got noticed right away. For those people who truly are not good writers or do not have good story ideas...I'm sorry. Not everyone is so blessed at being a good storyteller.

Also, my observation is based on authors who _say_ they are doing well. It is highly likely if I looked at _all_ four-book authors without taking into consideration whether or not they say they are doing well, that my perceived success rate based on the number of books may fall apart.

Perhaps when I feel I have the time to devote to it, I should pull out the working tools and sift through the data to see if my hypothesis holds any validity.


----------



## Guest (Sep 30, 2016)

Of the tens of thousands of people in indie publishing, only a few thousand are making a good living. So the odds are against you. I would say that your friend should not expect to be one of the few. But that said, if your friend does the footwork, the research, spends the time and money to give his or herself the best possible chance, it is not beyond the realm of possibility. 

Start with Russel Blake's blog. There, you will get invaluable information. You'll discover just how difficult it is to be a successful indie writer. It's not just getting there. It's also staying there. The pace and workload is staggering. And you're always one flop away from working the deli counter. 

However, it is rewarding, both personally and financially. Once you break through and you've been around long enough, you are in essence a minor celebrity. It can be almost like a drug at times. You get to meet some really awesome people. What's great is when you become friends with other writers whose books you have admired and enjoyed. Now they are looking at you as a colleague rather than a fan. And let's not forget the fans. They are great too. Sure, some can be a bit nutty. But mostly they're wonderful. They pick you up when you feel like you can't write another word. For me, they have become the reason for me to continue writing...well, that and the bills.


----------



## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

WDR said:


> If you want to make the path of self-publishing writers look bad, then you include these amateurs who have no intention of being serious about professional writing.


Yes, very true. I listened to a podcast recently with a New York agent, and her vibe was basically what you've highlighted above, and then went on to say about one of her clients (or it may have been a student at some NYU MFA program or soemthing?) recently just got a half million dollar advance. She was basically saying "well on average SPed books earn less than a $100, and this TPed author just got half a million". My response to that would be "so what?"


----------



## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

FWIW. Some of you know me from when I was here before, but for those who've come along in the last few years...

I started writing and self publishing (in audio) in 2007. It'll be ten years in January.

I didn't try to sell a book until 2010.

I went full time in 2012 when my day job quit me.

I haven't looked back.

Last year, we sunk the mortgage on the house and my wife retired. That latter piece wasn't such great news - medical issues - but I'm not freaking out because I'm earning enough to cover us, even adding in the health insurance.

I released a book at the end of August that's - so far - earned as much as my annual salary when I had a day job. It might be enough to get an All-Star for September but I'm not counting on that.

I don't write to market. I write against it because - thanks to people like Chris Fox - all the titles in my niche are banging on the same four chords which leaves me the rest of the scale to play in.

I rarely promote. My budget for promotion is zero - although I did spend about $500 last year when I went all-in and earned back 100x the investment that month. The revenues were confounded by having a recent release and dumping 10 novels into Select all at once. I might do it again but without the sudden influx of titles, the performance wouldn't be as notable.

I spend about an hour a month on marketing and anywhere from zero to twelve hours a day at the keyboard. To be fair, I spend upwards of an hour a day talking with the fans. It's fun and I probably do more of it than I think just because we have such a good time.

I write in series. I've finished two series and have three going in parallel now. My goal is to get back to being able to put out three books a year. Four would be a good year.

I'm an anecdote. I'm not data. I'm not any where near as successful as Patty Jansen or Anne Bellet. Maybe next year.

In the last decade I've come to appreciate a couple of things.

1. There is no One True Path. We each have to hack out our own.
2. Taking the road less traveled _can _make all the difference. 
3. I can make a living at it - even only publishing a couple of new books a year against a 12 title back list. I can't predict if anybody else might.
4. Luck favors the prepared. Knowing my business, knowing my niche, knowing my audience lets me capitalize on the luck that comes my way and buffers me when luck looks in the other direction.

The bad news: 
Writing isn't a sprint. It's not a marathon. It's not a race of any kind. You can't cross the finish line and win writing.

The good news: 
It's a way of life. You get up, you write, you bathe, you eat, you play, you write some more, you go to bed and do it again tomorrow. You finish a book. You publish a book. You release the book. You do it again. And again. And again. Even if you have to take a day job to keep food on the table and a roof over your head. You do it until you can't any more because your mind goes, or your hands go, or - with luck - you die.

Anything else is irrelevant.

JMO. YMMV.

I think that about covers it.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

This_Way_Down said:


> However, it is rewarding, both personally and financially. Once you break through and you've been around long enough, you are in essence a minor celebrity. It can be almost like a drug at times. You get to meet some really awesome people. What's great is when you become friends with other writers whose books you have admired and enjoyed. Now they are looking at you as a colleague rather than a fan. And let's not forget the fans. They are great too. Sure, some can be a bit nutty. But mostly they're wonderful. They pick you up when you feel like you can't write another word. For me, they have become the reason for me to continue writing...well, that and the bills.


This is one of the coolest parts of what I do now. I've developed some close friends among my readers, rubbed a few elbows with writers I've been a fan of for years, even corresponding with some on a regular basis. Three years ago, I ate mostly in truck stops. Now I host barbecues for dozens of friends and writers. I pick my kid up from school every day, and believe it or not, having that first spot in the car pool line at a high school is one of my favorite perks. I spend that hour reading. And the fans. I could be buried in work, it's a lot more than just writing now. I run a pretty large business. It's sometimes a bit overwhelming. Then I'll get an email from a reader. They convinced their ailing father to read a book, though he hadn't read one in forty years and he asks for more. Or, a salty retired Marine Master Gunnery Sergeant who tells you that you made his eyeballs "sweat" while he was sitting in a tree stand with a high powered rifle, waiting to kill something. And they always want more. They want to know how long it will be for the next one. The characters, who have been my close friends for a long time, have now become their friends. They care about what happens to them. They can escape their current place and go somewhere in their mind, somewhere relaxing and dangerous at the same time. Getting emails like that pops me out of that busy business bubble every time and makes me dream again. Then I write it down.


----------



## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

WDR said:


> As far as how do things improve for a self-published author depending on how many books they produce? I haven't looked in detail at those numbers. But just on casual observation looking at the authors here on KBoards, I have noticed that the majority of authors who say they are making a decent living have at least a minimum of four books published. Again, strictly my own casual observation:
> 
> 1 book = minimal financial performance
> 2 books = extra pocket money each month
> ...


I hope your observations are right on the mark. I am slowly inching my way up from 'extra pocket money' but concentrating on building up a backlist for now.


----------



## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

Vast generalizations, but these are my guesstimations: 

NEWBIES:
(A) lose money or make a trivial amount: 40%
(B) make some nice "cool, but still keep your day job" money: 39%
(C) make a decent living: 20%
(D) "woohoo! gold mine!": 1%

MORE EXPERIENCED WRITERS:
(A) lose money or make a trivial amount: 10%
(B) make some nice "cool, but still keep your day job" money: 30%
(C) make a decent living: 50%
(D) "woohoo! gold mine!": 10%

PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING AT E-PUB AS A GET RICH QUICK PLAN:
(A) lose money or make a trivial amount: 78%
(B) make some nice "cool, but still keep your day job" money 20%
(C) make a decent living: 2% 
(D) "woohoo! gold mine!": 0%

It's a process and your odds change depending on where you are in your journey, what your skill level is, what your work ethic is. That's why most surveys that are published in articles are worthless. The most accurate surveys I've found are Data Guy's at Author Earnings.

The difference between newer writers and more experienced writers, is that for newer writers, this tends to be an experiment. They're dipping their toes in the water and they can't really afford to hire the most professional team. They're shoe-stringing it and seeing if it sticks or if it's worth a larger commitment. 

For the more experienced writers, this is a business. They have business plans, staff (or they hire freelancers), hard deadlines. They've upped the commitment factor, which also tends to increase output -- but professional level output that's been through a team of proofreaders, editors, cover designers, formatters, and they have marketing plans in place. And the more they can put back into their business, the faster it grows.

But a lot of factors play into the success level. Genre books do better than mainstream lit, adult fiction does better than YA or MG or tiny tot books, fiction does better than non-fiction. Non-fiction is more of a springboard for speaking gigs than fiction.

E-pub is a great way to launch a new career, but it's not a get rich quick plan. To get into that top tier of Gold Rush, you need to write great books, publish frequently, have regularly scheduled promo/marketing campaigns, and it helps if you interact with fans via social media and a newsletter. And what really helps is if you have the support of other authors in your genre. Other authors in your genre are your biggest source of friendship, shared fans, information, marketing tips and promotional opportunities. They can really help you grow your career.


----------

