# vsAdmin is almost as bad as Tromp



## 41413

step on a LEGO, bsAdmin

you're the worst

stop ignoring my PMs


_edited, PM if you have questions -- Ann_


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## olefish

How do you build your mailing list?


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## Victoria J

Personally, I think this should be a sticky note at the top somewhere.


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## chrisstevenson

Sage advice from someone who's been there. My biggest obstacle will be listing multiple books--my agent has five of them and I'm so reluctant to pull any of them since she's "stagger" submitting them by genre, all at the same time. I'll have to wait until the sub train slows down or comes to an abrupt halt. She's also put lots of work and time into the editing and contact end of it. So I'll have to pow wow with her to find out which books have really gone the limit. I have two back-list books up on Amazon, published three years ago that still show books in inventory, so I'm not sure how to legally handle that. I do have my rights reverted to me on them, but I don't know about self-publishing them when they're still for sale on Amazon.

You can tell I'm new to the self-pub thing. 

chris


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## JGreen20

smreine said:


> I've seen a lot of new people floating around on KB asking for promo tips, so I thought I would give a quick guide to doing "the slow build" of sales. After getting into publishing almost sixteen months ago, I'm a full-time writer and making $2-5k a month (occasionally more). Since I'm not particularly smart or talented, I'm pretty confident anyone can pull it off doing the same stuff I have...


Brilliant. This thread deserves a bookmark. Thanks for taking the time to share this with us.


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## 41413

dalya said:


> @SM -- can I put your post up as a blog entry on yaindie.com ?
> 
> I'll link to your site and credit you and the KB of course!


Be my guest. No credit necessary. Fling it far and wide.


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## JGreen20

Victoria J said:


> Personally, I think this should be a sticky note at the top somewhere.


Yes, it should!


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## 41419

Excellent advice.

One question: how do you customize your sign-up page on Mailchimp. I use it, but I've never seen that option and it looks really great. I'm sure personalizing it like that really helps with sign-ups.


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## A. Rosaria

I write short stories so I'll stick with this advice you gave "skyclad dancing under the moon with ritual animal sacrifice"

I'll wait till the moon is out to walk my dog.


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## That one girl

Okay, I've been resisting the newsletter/mailing list thing, but you have convinced me. Time to clear the cobwebs on my MailChimp account. Thanks for sharing this with us.


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## 56139

olefish said:


> How do you build your mailing list?


You offer something to them to get them to sign up.

DISCLAIMER - don't offer soemething cheap or stupid. Something of value.


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## 41413

dgaughran said:


> Excellent advice.
> 
> One question: how do you customize your sign-up page on Mailchimp. I use it, but I've never seen that option and it looks really great. I'm sure personalizing it like that really helps with sign-ups.


That means a lot, coming from you, Mr. I Literally Wrote the Book on This. 

If you login to Mailchimp and go to Lists, there should be a link that says "Forms" under the name of your mailing list. It takes you to a page where you design all the signup forms and follow-up emails.


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## 41413

A. Rosaria said:


> I write short stories so I'll stick with this advice you gave "skyclad dancing under the moon with ritual animal sacrifice"
> 
> I'll wait till the moon is out to walk my dog.


You can do this without a series, too. It's most effective with a series, I think, but it will work to a lesser degree on unrelated books.


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## 56139

dgaughran said:


> Excellent advice.
> 
> One question: how do you customize your sign-up page on Mailchimp. I use it, but I've never seen that option and it looks really great. I'm sure personalizing it like that really helps with sign-ups.


Here is what mine looks like - took me me all of three minutes: http://iamjustjunco.us5.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=9313bfe0e0713e135eac00c60&id=0fb0896cf5

Now with Constant contact I have a much more targeted sign-up, but that's for my "other" list. It's a much longer process, but typically you want quick and dirty.


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## 41413

JanneCO said:


> You offer something to them to get them to sign up.
> 
> DISCLAIMER - don't offer soemething cheap or stupid. Something of value.


This is an option. Indeed, I used to offer a free download of one of my shorter books. I have since stopped doing that, and my enrollment rate hasn't dropped, so I don't think it was a huge incentive. It's a good way to get started, though. And I do spoil my mailing list subscribers by sending them free stuff a couple times a year anyway.  I know they really appreciate it.

Keep in mind that readers who have enjoyed book 1 of a series really do want a convenient way to know that book 2 has come out. The real incentive here is being the first to find out that the characters they love are back for another adventure.


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## Lisa Grace

chrisstevenson said:


> Sage advice from someone who's been there. My biggest obstacle will be listing multiple books--my agent has five of them and I'm so reluctant to pull any of them since she's "stagger" submitting them by genre, all at the same time. I'll have to wait until the sub train slows down or comes to an abrupt halt. She's also put lots of work and time into the editing and contact end of it. So I'll have to pow wow with her to find out which books have really gone the limit. I have two back-list books up on Amazon, published three years ago that still show books in inventory, so I'm not sure how to legally handle that. I do have my rights reverted to me on them, but I don't know about self-publishing them when they're still for sale on Amazon.
> 
> You can tell I'm new to the self-pub thing.
> 
> chris


Write new novels now to self-publish. Don't wait around. 
Your agent can spend 6-7 months shopping your existing ones around and then you get offered an awful contract. Read _http://kriswrites.com/2012/08/22/the-business-rusch-the-end-of-the-unprofessional-writer/_ to see just how bad contracts have gotten. I have an entertainment lawyer to look at my contracts. If you go back and read her Business Rusch articles, you'll see several breaking down current contracts and why you shouldn't sign them.


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## Zelah Meyer

smreine said:


> That means a lot, coming from you, Mr. I Literally Wrote the Book on This.
> 
> If you login to Mailchimp and go to Lists, there should be a link that says "Forms" under the name of your mailing list. It takes you to a page where you design all the signup forms and follow-up emails.


Thanks for the advice, and the tip on the mailing list forms!


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## Krista D. Ball

Lies. All lies.


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## ToniD

smreine said:


> And I do spoil my mailing list subscribers by sending them free stuff a couple times a year anyway.  I know they really appreciate it.


Good idea, that. I started a mailing list using MailChimp awhile back, and so far have only used it to notify subscribers of sales. Free stuff is a nice thank-you. I'm thinking, a free copy of my next book when (ahem, _when_ Toni??) it comes out.

And serious congrats on your monthly income!


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## 41413

Krista D. Ball said:


> Lies. All lies.


Well, I do also put naked photos on page 32, but I didn't want to tell people that part. They might start stealing my success.


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## Krista D. Ball

smreine said:


> Well, I do also put naked photos on page 32, but I didn't want to tell people that part. They might start stealing my success.


That's how I pay my bills, baby. That's how I pay my bills.


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## SBJones

I used the embed email function in Word and simply put "Want to find out about new releases?  Join the mailing list at EMAIL".
The embed email link lets you pre fill out subject and body so all someone has to do is click on it and send it.  I then use an email rule to look for the pre filled subject line and it auto adds their email to my mailing group.


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## 56139

SBJones said:


> I used the embed email function in Word and simply put "Want to find out about new releases? Join the mailing list at EMAIL".
> The embed email link lets you pre fill out subject and body so all someone has to do is click on it and send it. I then use an email rule to look for the pre filled subject line and it auto adds their email to my mailing group.


You're fancy!  Great idea...I'll have to think about that as well..


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## Mel Comley

Excellent advice.


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## 41413

SBJones said:


> I used the embed email function in Word and simply put "Want to find out about new releases? Join the mailing list at EMAIL".
> The embed email link lets you pre fill out subject and body so all someone has to do is click on it and send it. I then use an email rule to look for the pre filled subject line and it auto adds their email to my mailing group.


There are lots of different ways to do it. As long as it's super duper easy for readers to enroll, it's golden.


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## dalya

I have only 13 email subscribers now, but that's more than I started with a year ago.

I'm a believer in the Facebook author page as well! 

Twitter, notsomuch.

Blogging, notsomuch.

Thanks for the post and it'll go live as a guest post on yaindie.com within a few weeks!

d.


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## jimkukral

You could increase your email signups/conversions by making a nice landing page as well. Maybe even add a personal video welcoming them and thanking them. Nice touches like that convert. Your point is right on. Be aggressive in getting people to your email list signup.

Good tips here. Of course, you have to write a lot of books.


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## Rykymus

You are so correct in everything you said. The only thing I did different was that I put the first book up for free through Select right out of the gate in the hopes of getting a few reviews, which it did. Other than that we are on the same track. And I'm here to confirm that it does work. I'm making more money than I have ever made in my life, and my email list is up to 2,000 names. But more importantly, I'm writing full time and having a blast doing it.


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## merryxmas

Concise, easy to follow and encouraging.   Would read again.


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## 41413

jimkukral said:


> Good tips here. Of course, you have to write a lot of books.


Isn't that the fun part anyway?

I like to joke with my husband about how I sit around playing make-believe with my miniature Tom Servo and model trains all day and get paid for it, but it's not really a joke at all.


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## ChristinaGarner

Thanks for the push on the email list. I have so resisted that b/c I have no idea how to get people to subscribe, but it really is the best target marketing. And thanks for the heads up on Mailchimp--never heard of it, lol.


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## budowriter

Very helpful, especially to us newbies. Thank you so much, smreine.


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## budowriter

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thanks for the push on the email list. I have so resisted that b/c I have no idea how to get people to subscribe, but it really is the best target marketing. And thanks for the heads up on Mailchimp--never heard of it, lol.


I second that. I really have no idea on how to go about building a list when I still only have 1 short story out...


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## Tim Ellis

A couple of other points to share:

1. I have a FB Fan Page (doesn't everybody) and I direct everyone there when I reply to emails, and at the end of my books.
2. After completing each chapter of my WIP, I post an update on the page with word count etc.
3. I use fans names in my books - after asking permission, of course, but I've started putting disclaimers at the start of my books - most people love it.
4. I publish a book every two months and a have a number of series on the go - so I agree with the original post.
5. I have an email list as well and notify everybody on new publications.

Emails work, FB fanpage works, regular updates work, chatting with fans on FB works, publishing series works, oh yeah - writing good books work!

Tim


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## 41413

I have a "note from the author" at the back of my books which includes the link, and I also link to it from my "about the author" section on my Amazon author page. 

Since I floundered around like a drunken, disoriented hippopotamus for the first six months and initially built a blog/Twitter following, I also funneled my few readers on that into my mailing list to start off. Most of my blog/Twitter followers are other writers, though, so it didn't do much for me.


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## Pnjw

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thanks for the push on the email list. I have so resisted that b/c I have no idea how to get people to subscribe, but it really is the best target marketing. And thanks for the heads up on Mailchimp--never heard of it, lol.


I put a link at the end of my books. It's also the first thing readers see when they come to my website. Another tip is to put a link in your email signature. That's pretty much it.


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## 41413

Tim Ellis said:


> A couple of other points to share:
> 
> 1. I have a FB Fan Page (doesn't everybody) and I direct everyone there when I reply to emails, and at the end of my books.
> 2. After completing each chapter of my WIP, I post an update on the page with word count etc.
> 3. I use fans names in my books - after asking permission, of course, but I've started putting disclaimers at the start of my books - most people love it.
> 4. I publish a book every two months and a have a number of series on the go - so I agree with the original post.
> 5. I have an email list as well and notify everybody on new publications.
> 
> Emails work, FB fanpage works, regular updates work, chatting with fans on FB works, publishing series works, oh yeah - writing good books work!
> 
> Tim


All that works too, but I was highlighting the important parts that allow me to remain an unsociable hermit and still sell books.


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## H.M. Ward

smreine said:


> I use Mailchimp: http://mailchimp.com/
> 
> *And then I link to the sign-up form at the end of my books. *
> 
> Here's mine for illustrative purposes: http://eepurl.com/eWERY


Duh! *smacks head* I forgot that part. Thanks for posting. I'm always looking for another way to engage readers and somehow I totally missed that. Links in ebooks. Imaging that.


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## merryxmas

Tim Ellis said:


> A couple of other points to share:
> 
> 1. I have a FB Fan Page (doesn't everybody) and I direct everyone there when I reply to emails, and at the end of my books.
> 2. After completing each chapter of my WIP, I post an update on the page with word count etc.
> *3. I use fans names in my books - after asking permission, of course, but I've started putting disclaimers at the start of my books - most people love it.*
> 4. I publish a book every two months and a have a number of series on the go - so I agree with the original post.
> 5. I have an email list as well and notify everybody on new publications.
> 
> Emails work, FB fanpage works, regular updates work, chatting with fans on FB works, publishing series works, oh yeah - writing good books work!
> 
> Tim


Number 3 there. That is quite brilliant.


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## LKWatts

Cool - thanks very much!   I've just released my 2nd book - also in a series - and I'm hoping to work towards the same goal as you do


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## H.M. Ward

Does MailChimp allow you to have separate lists? I write YA and erotic romance. While CC offers seperate lists for them to check off, it makes it totally obvious that I'm also Ella Steele, which I didn't want to do.  There's no way to have a sign up page for Ella and one for Holly. That's an issue with Constant Contact - they only allow one sign up page and its for everyone.  I might have to look at mail monkey.


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## Tim Ellis

smreine said:


> All that works too, but I was highlighting the important parts that allow me to remain an unsociable hermit and still sell books.


Hey, you're on here chatting away like a regular person  I spend about 1% of my day chatting - the rest I write. I have 22 publications out, and another two I'm writing simultaneously. The trouble with series is that readers read a book in a day, and then ask when the next one is coming out!


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## PhoenixS

chrisstevenson said:


> I have two back-list books up on Amazon, published three years ago that still show books in inventory, so I'm not sure how to legally handle that. I do have my rights reverted to me on them, but I don't know about self-publishing them when they're still for sale on Amazon.


Chris, no reason you can't put up digital versions of those rights-reverted backlist titles right now. I won't speculate about the print versions since I haven't seen your contract, but we're selling our own Steel Magnolia Press digital versions of print books still being actively sold by Sourcebooks Casablanca and E-Reads. AND we link the print and digital the same way a hardcover and paperback are linked even if they have different publishers.

SM: Wise words! Still figuring out that "series" thing myself . Congrats on your fabulous success!


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## R M Rowan

GREAT post! I've bookmarked and will revisit often.


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## 41413

H.M. Ward said:


> Does MailChimp allow you to have separate lists? I write YA and erotic romance. While CC offers seperate lists for them to check off, it makes it totally obvious that I'm also Ella Steele, which I didn't want to do. There's no way to have a sign up page for Ella and one for Holly. That's an issue with Constant Contact - they only allow one sign up page and its for everyone.  I might have to look at mail monkey.


I have three mailing lists via Mail Chimp, and they aren't linked at all. No problemo.



Tim Ellis said:


> Hey, you're on here chatting away like a regular person


Appearances can be deceiving. You just haven't noticed me getting my snark on yet. I am also popping Prozac and propranolol like candy while I write this. (Mostly joking.)


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## Christopher Bunn

smreine said:


> I use Mailchimp: http://mailchimp.com/
> 
> And then I link to the sign-up form at the end of my books.
> 
> Here's mine for illustrative purposes: http://eepurl.com/eWERY


Sorry if this is a dumb question... how do you put a link in your books? I'm assuming you mean the Kindle version. I'm clueless.


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## KOwrites

smreine said:


> I don't really like being helpful. (That really sounds horrible. I guess it is.) I am not a people person, I don't want to build a platform as a publishing "expert" or what have you...


This made me smile. I'm right there with you... I don't go out of my way to help or volunteer because I guard my time at a fanatic level with my New Year's goals always centered around saying,_ "No" _as much as possible to safeguard my writing time. 

That being said, I love your advice and willingness to share. I think your points are dead-on, too.

Best,
Katherine Owen


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## 41413

Christopher Bunn said:


> Sorry if this is a dumb question... how do you put a link in your books? I'm assuming you mean the Kindle version. I'm clueless.


It's the same as putting in any other HTML link, and it will depend on how you format your books.

I code all my ebooks by hand, so this is what I do:



Code:


<a href="http://eepurl.com/eWERY">eepurl.com/eWERY</a>


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## Christopher Bunn

Thanks! Much appreciated!


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## Not Here Anymore

Great advice--thanks for sharing! I have two Wufoo forms on my website. They were easy to set up. 
Anyone else use those or know of pros/cons of Wufoo vs. MailChimp? I've never tried MailChimp, but keep hearing it mentioned. 
Definitely putting a email sign-up link at the end of my next book.


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## williamvw

LOVE this thread. Many thanks to SM and everyone else for the excellent ideas and info. SO HELPFUL!


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## elalond

A good advice. Thank you for sharing it.
For building your email list you can also use, if you have gmail, gmail groups and their document forms.


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## 56139

H.M. Ward said:


> Does MailChimp allow you to have separate lists? I write YA and erotic romance. While CC offers seperate lists for them to check off, it makes it totally obvious that I'm also Ella Steele, which I didn't want to do. There's no way to have a sign up page for Ella and one for Holly. That's an issue with Constant Contact - they only allow one sign up page and its for everyone.  I might have to look at mail monkey.


Which is exactly why I have to use both services as well. CC is my main list and I'm not leaving them, I have way too much invested in that list and all the templates etc. I have used over the years are all there. But it *sucks *that you have to pay for another account to get two sign-up pages.


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## AmsterdamAssassin

smreine said:


> What you need:
> 1. Books. Written by you, ideally. Can't do much with other books.
> 2. A mailing list.


1. I have books and short stories in the Amsterdam Assassin Series.
2. I know a lot of people who are wondering what the hell I'm typing.



smreine said:


> Qualifiers about that whole "books" thing:
> 1. They need to be relatively commercial. Not hugely so--but if you're writing something terribly obscure, this may not work as well.
> 2. You need to write lots of them. This sales strategy is entirely dependent on new releases.
> 3. They should be in a series.
> 4. They shouldn't suck. (Who's going to buy books 2-10 of a series when they hated book 1?)


1. Check. Suspense is pretty big.
2. Ehm, I'm a slowly getting faster at cranking out the words, but I do intersperse the novels with 'KillFiles' or short stories.
3. Check. And I named the series 'Amsterdam Assassin Series', which kind of tells a prospective reader all they need to know. If someone picks it up expecting a romantic stand-alone set in Barcelona, they shouldn't complain if their expectations aren't met.
4. The books are incredibly well-written and immaculately researched, with original twists and gut-wrenching tension. At least, that's what my beta readers tell me.



smreine said:


> A series is also a must for dummy- and luck-proof publishing, because it allows you to leverage earlier books to sell later books at full price.


I already thought that it would be ideal to [temporarily] lower the prices of the older books in the series to draw new readers.



smreine said:


> This is basically what you want to do:
> 1. Release book 1,
> 2. Aggressively attract those readers to your mailing list, so that when you,
> 3. Release book 2,
> 4. You can notify the people who read book 1 and start off with a small burst of sales.
> 
> Lather, rinse, and repeat with books 3, 4, 5, and so on.


I'm not that aggressive in my acquisition of readers - I hope that readers will recommend the Amsterdam Assassin Series to other readers - but I will look into this MailChimp for the upcoming release of Reprobate.



smreine said:


> Your first release probably won't be impressive, but each release will hit a tiny bit higher because of your mailing list, and hitting a tiny bit higher will get you a few more eyeballs and increase the size of your mailing list. Eventually, you start to build pretty good momentum. This will go a lot faster if your book is super awesome and resonates with a lot of people, but even if your book only resonates with a handful of readers, it will still build--slooooowly but surely.
> 
> Using freebies and 99c sales on earlier books in the series when you launch a new one will also increase the number of eyeballs. (KDP Select is good for this.)


I'm in it for the long haul, so I don't have to earn well straight out of the gate. I'd rather build a solid following.



smreine said:


> That's how I'm making an almost-livable income from my writing.


You call $2K-$5K 'almost liveable'? Or is it $2.00-$5,000.00 per month?


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## D/W

Thanks for the helpful tips, smreine!


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## ruecole

Thank you so much for posting this! I've got the blog, FB, and Twitter accounts, and a list of friends and family in my address book. But it never occurred to me to put a sign up to a mail list in the actual books! (I feel so dumb!) I'll be setting that up ASAP!

Thanks!

Rue


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## jimkukral

This is really the X factor in this post.

"1. They need to be relatively commercial. Not hugely so--but if you're writing something terribly obscure, this may not work as well."

Yeah. You have to write books that a LOT of people want to read. I write books in marketing/success/web stuff and the audience is really limited. That's just how it is. Does that mean I should go out and write erotica or fantasy or romance? Yeah, I guess, if I could, maybe I would.

But why do you write books? To show your expertise like I do? If you're not an expert or can't tell stories in a topic, you're kinds stuck with what audience you have. The key then is to market it well in your target, even though it's smaller.

Check out this crazy idea I'm doing for my future books. $1 gets you copies of every book I write for the next year. http://www.jimforlife.com


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## Monique

Rock on, SMReine. My experience mirrors this. I don't have as many books out (or as many as I should), but your recipe for success is spot on.


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## BBGriffith

Rykymus said:


> And I'm here to confirm that it does work. I'm making more money than I have ever made in my life, and my email list is up to 2,000 names. But more importantly, I'm writing full time and having a blast doing it.


It also doesn't hurt to have an excellent product, which yours undoubtedly is. Just finished Aurora yesterday. I'm in it to win it.


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## Sybil Nelson

My problem is getting people to sign up for my newsletter as well. I've had a newsletter for two years and I only have 500 subscribers. My Leslie DuBois newsletter I started this year and it only has 139 subscribers. I've done giveaways and the like, but usually people just unsubscribe after the contest is over. The biggest leaps I've had in my newsletter subscribers if after I've gone to give speeches at schools. All the kids there sign up for the newsletter, but then I have to add in each name individually. Maybe I'll start bringing my laptop and having people type their own email address in.


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## Sharebear

Sybil Nelson said:


> Maybe I'll start bringing my laptop and having people type their own email address in.


That is genius, I can just bring the ipad to my next signing and get people involved. P.S. I've been at it nine months and only have 50 so you're way ahead of me.

As always thanks smreine for the help!


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## JRTomlin

olefish said:


> How do you build your mailing list?


That is quite definitely the hard part. Well, that and--what if you happen to not write a series. OOPS!


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## KidSlumber

This is a great post. I have just looked at mailchimp and struck a hurdle. You have to input a physical address for inclusion in a mail-out. I assume this also applies to all alternatives to mail-chimp (based on anti-spam legislation). I am all for spam protection but not keen on listing my address on an email list sent into cyberspace. What have others done? I see a PO Box is an option.


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## AnneMarie Novark

KidSlumber said:


> This is a great post. I have just looked at mailchimp and struck a hurdle. You have to input a physical address for inclusion in a mail-out. I assume this also applies to all alternatives to mail-chimp (based on anti-spam legislation). I am all for spam protection but not keen on listing my address on an email list sent into cyberspace. What have others done? I see a PO Box is an option.


I use MailChimp and I rent a UPS box at a UPS store for my email list address. It doesn't cost much and it's a writing expense.

This is an awesome post. Great information.


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## 41413

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> You call $2K-$5K 'almost liveable'? Or is it $2.00-$5,000.00 per month?


Well, it depends. That's the gross amount--a big chunk goes to taxes, and I also spend a decent amount of money producing each of these books (mostly editing costs), and expenses are generally higher as a self-employed person who has to handle her own insurance and retirement and stuff. I used to support my family in a government job at <$36k USD a year, but I have to make up for those benefits now that used to be free. So... Yeah. Almost livable.



JRTomlin said:


> That is quite definitely the hard part. Well, that and--what if you happen to not write a series. OOPS!


Mailing lists are most effective for a series, but they do work for all authors on varying levels. Like I said, though, this is hardly the only technique for sales.



Sybil Nelson said:


> My problem is getting people to sign up for my newsletter as well. I've had a newsletter for two years and I only have 500 subscribers. My Leslie DuBois newsletter I started this year and it only has 139 subscribers. I've done giveaways and the like, but usually people just unsubscribe after the contest is over. The biggest leaps I've had in my newsletter subscribers if after I've gone to give speeches at schools. All the kids there sign up for the newsletter, but then I have to add in each name individually. Maybe I'll start bringing my laptop and having people type their own email address in.


The potential issue with incentivizing mailing list signups in this way is that the quality of enrollments isn't as good, as you've seen. It's better to have 100 enthusiastic fans than 1000 people who just wanted to win a Kindle Fire and haven't read/loved your books. That's why I don't really do giveaways like that very much anymore.



BBGriffith said:


> It also doesn't hurt to have an excellent product, which yours undoubtedly is. Just finished Aurora yesterday. I'm in it to win it.


Yeah, Rykymus is kinda cheating by writing amazing books that lots of people love. The jerk. Might as well use cheat codes for life when you're all talented or whatever.


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## Katie Salidas

Wonderful post. I like your ideas. I too use Mail chimp and love it for ease of use as well as ease of user sign up.


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## Griffin Hayes

Creating a mailing list has probably been the one thing I've dragged my feet on for way too long. Thanks for the kick in the pants that I needed. Mailchimp, here I come!


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## Susan Kaye Quinn

Great post and thread!



> I use Mailchimp: http://mailchimp.com/
> 
> And then I link to the sign-up form at the end of my books.
> 
> Here's mine for illustrative purposes: http://eepurl.com/eWERY


I've always had the link, but recently reformatted to make it easier to see - subscriptions jumped almost immediately! Having that link to the newsletter at the back of the book ... just can't overstate how important that is.

I've also done the sign-ups at giveaways, but usually giveaways of MY BOOK - hence the people who are attracted to my book are the ones who subscribe. I can see how a Kindle giveaway wouldn't have the same effect.

My biggest concern - Mailchimp is only free up to 2000 subscribers. I used to think that was crazy pie-in-the-sky numbers, but now I'm not so sure. After that, it can get pricey real quick. Not sure what I'll do, because I really like mailchimp.


----------



## 41413

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> My biggest concern - Mailchimp is only free up to 2000 subscribers. I used to think that was crazy pie-in-the-sky numbers, but now I'm not so sure. After that, it can get pricey real quick. Not sure what I'll do, because I really like mailchimp.


I'm approaching that number faster than I expected, too. I might use Mailchimp to manage the list after that, but I'll probably export it and do something else when actually sending the emails. Haven't decided what yet. I might just send them in batches from my email.


----------



## Sarah Woodbury

This is exactly right.  I would also say that if you have the mailing list, coupled with a FB author page, even with only a couple of hundred people signed up in each place, it can make a huge difference when you release a book.

Also--put the first chapter of the next book at the end of the previous book with the link to buy.

And a month or more before you release the next book in the series, mention it's upcoming existence in your blurb in the book description on Amazon/BN/Apple.  That way people who buy any book in the series will have a head's up as to when to look for the next one.


----------



## notreallyhere

Question for SM - how did you link the form directly to your nav bar? Love that! Thanks in advance - and thank you for the great thread. 

~Cate


----------



## 41413

cate dean said:


> Question for SM - how did you link the form directly to your nav bar? Love that! Thanks in advance - and thank you for the great thread.
> 
> ~Cate


Sorry, it's getting late. Not sure what you mean. What nav bar? What link? Who's on first?


----------



## 57280

I bow to you, oh Head Cheese of the Army of Evil!  

Your Evil-ness has been slightly lessened, however, by your amazing generosity. 

CB


----------



## Susan Kaye Quinn

> I might use Mailchimp to manage the list after that, but I'll probably export it and do something else when actually sending the emails. Haven't decided what yet. I might just send them in batches from my email.


I actually did this before I discovered mailchimp. It was painful. Cursing out loud with the children in the room painful, never quite sure which emails made it through the blasted filter on my outlook account. So ... yeah, I wouldn't recommend that. But I'm thinking other services might be more economical.


----------



## notreallyhere

smreine said:


> Sorry, it's getting late. Not sure what you mean. What nav bar? What link? Who's on first?


Sorry - website building speak. On your site, where you have Army of Evil across the top bar - how did you get it to go right to the form? Or is that on your website? Am I making sense? Bueller? Bueller?


----------



## Sybil Nelson

smreine said:


> The potential issue with incentivizing mailing list signups in this way is that the quality of enrollments isn't as good, as you've seen. It's better to have 100 enthusiastic fans than 1000 people who just wanted to win a Kindle Fire and haven't read/loved your books. That's why I don't really do giveaways like that very much anymore.


Duly noted. I will not be giving away any more kindles. I think I've done like 8 kindle fire giveaways this year.


----------



## 41413

cate dean said:


> Sorry - website building speak. On your site, where you have Army of Evil across the top bar - how did you get it to go right to the form? Or is that on your website? Am I making sense? Bueller? Bueller?


Oh, right, that. You go to your blog on the Blogger dashboard, go to the link where you manage Pages, and click the "New Page" dropdown. Instead of making a blank page, you add a link to a web page, and put in the link to the enrollment form.

I hope that explanation made any kind of sense whatsoever... Ha.


----------



## 41413

Sybil Nelson said:


> Duly noted. I will not be giving away any more kindles. I think I've done like 8 kindle fire giveaways this year.


On the bright side, there are eight very happy people with Kindle Fires now.


----------



## notreallyhere

smreine said:


> Oh, right, that. You go to your blog on the Blogger dashboard, go to the link where you manage Pages, and click the "New Page" dropdown. Instead of making a blank page, you add a link to a web page, and put in the link to the enrollment form.
> 
> I hope that explanation made any kind of sense whatsoever... Ha.


Yep - perfect sense. Thanks!


----------



## James Bruno

As one maladjusted, sword-collecting misanthrope to another, my hat's off to you. This may be a dumb question, but, what do you put in a newsletter that you haven't already put in your blog, FB page, etc? Are we talking multifaceted duplication here? Otherwise, how do you divide your labors? All these outlets can be huge time sucks. I, for one, invest a lot of time putting out well-researched, brilliant and incredibly witty blog posts, which get a lot of readers. To add to that having to put out a newsletter as well (and talking about what?) -- I just don't know.


----------



## TexasGirl

James Bruno said:


> As one maladjusted, sword-collecting misanthrope to another, my hat's off to you. This may be a dumb question, but, what do you put in a newsletter that you haven't already put in your blog, FB page, etc? Are we talking multifaceted duplication here? Otherwise, how do you divide your labors? All these outlets can be huge time sucks. I, for one, invest a lot of time putting out well-researched, brilliant and incredibly witty blog posts, which get a lot of readers. To add to that having to put out a newsletter as well (and talking about what?) -- I just don't know.


I give them excerpts of the books I'm currently writing and the trials and tribulations of the drafting. And I keep it personal, more so than my blog. Chummy, like I'm talking just to them.


----------



## 56139

Sybil Nelson said:


> My problem is getting people to sign up for my newsletter as well. I've had a newsletter for two years and I only have 500 subscribers. My Leslie DuBois newsletter I started this year and it only has 139 subscribers. I've done giveaways and the like, but usually people just unsubscribe after the contest is over.


Yeah, you only want to give away things that have to do with your product. So, short stories that relate to your character, advanced copies of first chapters, character interviews, autographed e-books - stuff like that.

I'm doing blog tours and each tour has a $100 giveaway - my newsletter is NOT on the Rafflecopter giveaway because you never want random people on your list - otherwise it's useless and defeats the whole purpose of building a list in the first place. Plus, once you get a certain number of subscribers you're actually PAYING to have them on your list. And take it from me, it's quite pricey. You want to make it as easy as you can for non-interested people to get the heck off your list and don't encourage people are are really not interested in joining it.

I'm giving away my first book free if they sign up for the newsletter, that way people who just want to enter the contest and do that with Rafflecopter, while those who are really interested in the free e-book can sign up for the newsletter.


----------



## 41419

Thanks SM for the Mailchimp tip! Wow this thread has grown since yesterday.



smreine said:


> The potential issue with incentivizing mailing list signups in this way is that the quality of enrollments isn't as good, as you've seen. It's better to have 100 enthusiastic fans than 1000 people who just wanted to win a Kindle Fire and haven't read/loved your books. That's why I don't really do giveaways like that very much anymore.


I particularly wanted to highlight this because it's _such_ good advice. It's easy to get distracted by the pursuit of raw numbers - more followers, more likes, more subscribers - it's a seductive little rut and a deceptive one too because it makes you feel like you are achieving something.

But if these people are just numbers, and not engaged fans, they are worse than useless because it means you have been wasting time chasing the wrong people when that time would have been much better spent doing almost anything else - not least writing the next book.


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin

smreine said:


> I'm approaching that number faster than I expected, too. I might use Mailchimp to manage the list after that, but I'll probably export it and do something else when actually sending the emails. Haven't decided what yet. I might just send them in batches from my email.


Is there also a way to oust subscibers from the list if they are not real 'fans', so you can make room for real readers to sign up?


----------



## JGreen20

smreine said:


> I'm approaching that number faster than I expected, too. I might use Mailchimp to manage the list after that, but I'll probably export it and do something else when actually sending the emails. Haven't decided what yet. I might just send them in batches from my email.


I would advice you against that. Your email address will probably be marked as spam by most email service providers (Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo, etc). These companies have bots that identify the origin of all the emails and they assume that someone who sends massive email is a spammer.

That's why services like Mailchimp, Aweber, Get Response or Constant Contact use many different servers to send the emails. Part of their job is to avoid being marked as spammers.


----------



## JGreen20

Sarah Woodbury said:


> Also--put the first chapter of the next book at the end of the previous book with the link to buy.


Linking to other books within your book is against Amazon Kindle ToS. KDP confirmed it to me via email.


----------



## Not Here Anymore

That's interesting that linking other books within a book is against Amazon ToS because it seems to be pretty standard practice. At least with trad publishers. My paperbacks have always had the first chapter of the next book at the end. I will have to check and see if they are in the kindle versions of the paperback.


----------



## 41419

Sara Rosett said:


> That's interesting that linking other books within a book is against Amazon ToS because it seems to be pretty standard practice. At least with trad publishers. My paperbacks have always had the first chapter of the next book at the end. I will have to check and see if they are in the kindle versions of the paperback.


I think every Kindle Book I've ever read had links to other books.

Perhaps what they were referring to was links to competing retailers.


----------



## 41419

James Bruno said:


> As one maladjusted, sword-collecting misanthrope to another, my hat's off to you. This may be a dumb question, but, what do you put in a newsletter that you haven't already put in your blog, FB page, etc? Are we talking multifaceted duplication here? Otherwise, how do you divide your labors? All these outlets can be huge time sucks. I, for one, invest a lot of time putting out well-researched, brilliant and incredibly witty blog posts, which get a lot of readers. To add to that having to put out a newsletter as well (and talking about what?) -- I just don't know.


All I use my mailing list for is to announce new releases. I actually think that helps with sign-ups as I let readers know that I'll only message them when the next book is out, and I won't clutter their inbox with crap they either (a) will read elsewhere or, more likely, (b) not want to read elsewhere.

For me at least, the readers that want new release notifications are different to the ones that read my blog regularly.


----------



## Ciye Cho

@smreine: Thank you so much for starting this thread.

Off to check out mailchimp. One of the reasons why I never went down that route is because I just couldn't figure out what software or site to go with.


----------



## Susan Kaye Quinn

> This may be a dumb question, but, what do you put in a newsletter that you haven't already put in your blog, FB page, etc?


Like David, I mostly use it for new releases. If I'm doing a giveaway on my blog, I'll send an email to my newsletter subscribers to clue them in, so they can click over to enter. Sometimes I'll send out an email blast with other giveaways and deals, like when 10 fellow Indelibles all had their books free at the same time.

Mailchimp is great to see what newsletters are getting click-through and which aren't, so you can quickly tailor to your subscriber's preferred content.


----------



## Burrito Fart

Thanks for the info!


----------



## Rex Jameson

AnneMarie Novark said:


> I use MailChimp and I rent a UPS box at a UPS store for my email list address. It doesn't cost much and it's a writing expense.
> 
> This is an awesome post. Great information.


This was what I was going to ask. Thanks for clearing it up. I definitely don't want my real address scattered around in the mailings.


----------



## abbycake

This is a really good post. I had a pretty large blog / twitter following before I decided to self publish so I had a nice list to start my newsletter (which I blogged about today >> http://www.ageektragedy.net/its-an-indie-thing/) I would definitely agree with what another person mentioned, it's better to have a small following who will buy your books than a huge one who just wants freebies.


----------



## 41413

James Bruno said:


> As one maladjusted, sword-collecting misanthrope to another, my hat's off to you. This may be a dumb question, but, what do you put in a newsletter that you haven't already put in your blog, FB page, etc? Are we talking multifaceted duplication here? Otherwise, how do you divide your labors? All these outlets can be huge time sucks. I, for one, invest a lot of time putting out well-researched, brilliant and incredibly witty blog posts, which get a lot of readers. To add to that having to put out a newsletter as well (and talking about what?) -- I just don't know.


All I do is send them a short email when a new book is ready. That's it. Twitter is for chatting; Facebook is for more in-depth conversation; Blogger is where I put blurbs and excerpts. It's important to treat your mailing list, and the people who have entrusted you with their contact information, like the gold that it is. Don't bother them with anything less important than a new book.



AmsterdamAssassin said:


> Is there also a way to oust subscibers from the list if they are not real 'fans', so you can make room for real readers to sign up?


MailChimp has advanced analytics, like which addresses do and do not open your emails, and who does and does not click links. It also ranks your subscribers, so this would be theoretically possible. But some folks might be waiting for a specific book--like a book #5 to my YA series, which I don't have planned yet, despite a lot of begging--and I would hate to remove them so that they miss the book.


----------



## JGreen20

dgaughran said:


> I think every Kindle Book I've ever read had links to other books.
> 
> Perhaps what they were referring to was links to competing retailers.


No, they were not referring to competing retailers. My question to KDP was very clear and easy: Am I allowed to include within my book links to my other books on the Amazon store?

Their reply:

_Per our KDP terms and conditions, you may not include links to other books within your book. If you find any other books violating our terms, please write to us with the details; we'll have the same investigated and take necessary action.
_

Of course I haven't sent them details of anybody, but I agree with you. Most Kindle books have links to previous books. That's the reason why I asked for clarification.

In case anybody wants to know, this is what KDP Terms and Conditions say (5.1.2 Content Requirements):
_You may not include in any Digital Book any advertisements or other content that is primarily intended to advertise or promote products or services._


----------



## Steve Vernon

I'm sticking my nose in here so that I'll be able to find this thread this weekend - when I'll have a chance to read it. But from what I've skimmed there is some great stuff here.


----------



## John Twipnook

Thanks for the no-BS advice. I think you distilled it down to the essence of self-pub success. Cheers!


----------



## athanos

What if you don't have that many people in your email list, how did you get more?

How do you get over that some people would look at email like that as spam?


----------



## valeriec80

athanos said:


> What if you don't have that many people in your email list, how did you get more?


Put a link at the end of your books, especially in a continuing series, saying, "Want to know when the next book is available? Sign up for my announcement list." It won't happen overnight, but it grows slowly.



athanos said:


> How do you get over that some people would look at email like that as spam?


Most lists you use will require that the person who signs up click a link in a confirmation email, saying that they want to be on the list. This means that they asked for it , and it's technically not spam.

Your emails should also have a note on them someplace explaining how to unsubscribe in case anyone who receives them changes their minds.


----------



## glennlangohr

I just bought your book to get to page 2 to see you naked. You are so hot! I love the librarian look!


----------



## 41413

athanos said:


> What if you don't have that many people in your email list, how did you get more?
> 
> How do you get over that some people would look at email like that as spam?


Yeah, what Valerie said. It's not spam because they opt in to receive them, and it's easy to unsubscribe (though I have very few people remove themselves). I use MailChimp, which actually has a double opt-in process, so you _really_ know they want it. My readers actually kind of see it like a service--they want to know when the next book in a series they care about is coming, and they really appreciate hearing from me. I get a lot of thanks in response.

I have a link to sign up everywhere. My website, my author bio, at the end of my books, etcetera. I make it really easy to find me and get updates.

Also, ZOMBIE THREAD! RUN!


----------



## Courtney Milan

This advice is made of gold. I give it a gold star. This is what I advise 100% over everything else in the entire world.

For this:


JanneCO said:


> You offer something to them to get them to sign up.
> 
> DISCLAIMER - don't offer soemething cheap or stupid. Something of value.


I did this when I first started out, and I honestly don't advise it.

(a) The people who signed up because I offered them something have the lowest click-through and open rates on my mailing list.
(b) Once I started getting more aggressive about having people sign up (the sign-up link is now on the right-hand side of my front page, and listed first right after a book ends), I got way more sign-ups than I did from offering something that cost me money and time to run.

My first mailings to my mailing list made me think that mailing lists were useless. I'd send out a newsletter to crickets. Nary a blip on the radar. You never start out with an exciting mailing list because nobody knows you. It's not the NUMBER of people on your mailing list that matter so much as the intensity. If 5,000 people who don't care about your books are on your newsletter, it just costs you $ to send. If 100 people are on your mailing list who are all going to buy your book, your mailing list is gold.

I'm at the three year mark of building a newsletter, and at this point, I can send out a mailing and get literally hundreds of sales from it. But it took me three years to get to that point. I'm still building, but at this point it's pretty clear to me that my newsletter is my absolute best selling tool.


----------



## 41413

Courtney Milan said:


> (a) The people who signed up because I offered them something have the lowest click-through and open rates on my mailing list.
> (b) Once I started getting more aggressive about having people sign up (the sign-up link is now on the right-hand side of my front page, and listed first right after a book ends), I got way more sign-ups than I did from offering something that cost me money and time to run.


That was my experience, too. I used to give people a code for a free download of a novella, and it worked pretty well as a way to get signups, but they were just hoping to get more freebies. New subscribers that I did not bribe are much more enthusiastic and have fantastic click-through, as far as I can tell, although mobile clicks muddy the data a bit. And I have a _lot_ of people who only interact with me from their mobile devices. (Hint hint: I'm telling you that it should be easy for people to sign up for your list from their cell phones.)


----------



## 56139

Courtney Milan said:


> This advice is made of gold. I give it a gold star. This is what I advise 100% over everything else in the entire world.
> 
> For this:
> I did this when I first started out, and I honestly don't advise it.


As you can see, my list has no such click-through rate issue. I have a pretty consistent click-through rate of 40% for my big list, so it really depends on what you're offering. I offer very high value things. On a typical newsletter day I make anywhere from $200-$300 off one freebie that costs me very little (or most of the time nothing, because I give away something old). So, you have to find what works for you.

Obviously, this works for me.










And THIS is what my click-through rate looks like for my December promotion - I make thousands of dollars off this one..


----------



## Lisa Grace

Another short, quick, dirty guide? Your toddler? Mine was. 


Thanks for all the helpful info. I'm going to check out the monkey. I've always wanted one that wouldn't fling poo.


----------



## 41413

JanneCO said:


>


Is that for your Junco pen name?


----------



## 56139

smreine said:


> Is that for your Junco pen name?


No, this is my non-fiction stuff. I've built this list over time, it's a fantastic list filled with people who love me.  (And I love them)

I have not sent a Junco newsletter yet - I have a few hundred on that one, but I have inothing to send, so I send nothing. I never spam.


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## sarracannon

I have actually been wondering what would be considered a "good" open and click-through rate for a mailing list? I currently have just under 1000 subscribers, but have gotten almost all of them since my latest release (which sadly was January <---/fail /iblamethebaby), so I have no idea how well the list works in actually driving sales. My last announcement was a release date/contest announcement and I had 69% open the email and 52.5% click-through to my website. I have zero idea if this is a good rate? Or if this is showing that I have a ton of people on my list who don't care about my books . Anyone willing to share what they think is a 'good' click-through rate for a mailing list?

Great thread, btw! Thanks for sharing all your knowledge . Just picked up a few of your books and am looking forward to digging in as soon as I get time to read (ie. when my book is finished. if that ever happens.).


----------



## 41413

sarracannon said:


> I have actually been wondering what would be considered a "good" open and click-through rate for a mailing list? I currently have just under 1000 subscribers, but have gotten almost all of them since my latest release (which sadly was January <---/fail /iblamethebaby), so I have no idea how well the list works in actually driving sales. My last announcement was a release date/contest announcement and I had 69% open the email and 52.5% click-through to my website. I have zero idea if this is a good rate? Or if this is showing that I have a ton of people on my list who don't care about my books . Anyone willing to share what they think is a 'good' click-through rate for a mailing list?


Hey, it's not easy getting stuff done with a baby. 

I can't really compare click-through for contests and other announcements, since I only use my mailing list to let readers know about a new release. I'd be curious to hear what others have to say, though.


----------



## Krista D. Ball

I have no idea how many people click what and when and why


----------



## Carol (was Dara)

I'd like to add one way _not_ to build a mailing list, and that's by focusing all your efforts in only one area (if it's a medium you have no control over). When I first started out, I made a terrible mistake in expending all my energies on FaceBook. After a lot of hard work I built up over 5,000 friends and created my own group, which grew to over 2,000 members. Messaging my group members was the only way I announced my new releases, giveaways, etc and I always got a wonderful response from my group. But guess what happened next? Yep, Facebook made changes and one of those changes was archiving groups like mine and replacing them with fan pages. 

So, I lost my only means of contact with 2K fans and had to start from scratch, gathering fans for my new "page". Not only did this put me back at square one but there's no way of mass messaging all my fans, via a page. All I can do is post things, knowing FB will only make these updates available to a very small fraction of my friends, unless I pay money to let more fans see my updates. Yes, I'm still whining over it. It's super discouraging to build up some sort of platform, only to see your work swept away overnight.


----------



## 41413

Dara England said:


> I'd like to add one way _not_ to build a mailing list, and that's by focusing all your efforts in only one area (if it's a medium you have no control over). When I first started out, I made a terrible mistake in expending all my energies on FaceBook. After a lot of hard work I built up over 5,000 friends and created my own group, which grew to over 2,000 members. Messaging my group members was the only way I announced my new releases, giveaways, etc and I always got a wonderful response from my group. But guess what happened next? Yep, Facebook made changes and one of those changes was archiving groups like mine and replacing them with fan pages.
> 
> So, I lost my only means of contact with 2K fans and had to start from scratch, gathering fans for my new "page". Not only did this put me back at square one but there's no way of mass messaging all my fans, via a page. All I can do is post things, knowing FB will only make these updates available to a very small fraction of my friends, unless I pay money to let more fans see my updates. Yes, I'm still whining over it. It's super discouraging to build up some sort of platform, only to see your work swept away overnight.


Ouch. D: That sucks really, really hard. I'm sorry, Dara.


----------



## Carol (was Dara)

smreine said:


> Ouch. D: That sucks really, really hard. I'm sorry, Dara.


Thanks. It was kinda sucky but I'm okay now. Just have to learn to get better with the newsletter thing.


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## herocious

Got my subscription form complete.

I'm writing a sequel to Austin Nights.

http://eepurl.com/rZmGv


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## N. Gemini Sasson

Thanks for all the info. and discussion here. Just signed up for Mail Chimp. I've been using regular e-mail to stay in touch with fans - keeps things friendly and personalized, but it's also very time-consuming - as well as Facebook, but I know for a fact that some people miss seeing posts, either because they're just busy and don't look at it every day like I do, or they've unwittingly fallen prey to FB's filtering of posts.

So thanks again. I don't know why I didn't do this a long time ago. I'll also be adding the link to the back of my books.


----------



## Justawriter

Chiming in more as a reader than writer on this, but just wanted to add that I subscribe to very few writer lists, but the ones that I do subscribe to are auto-buys for me, and the minute I get that email with the link to buy the newest release, I buy it that day, usually within seconds of reading the email. 

I just did that for Catherine Bybee, who sends occasional emails. She sends when she has updates on her progress, or a new cover for an upcoming book and the occasional interview with another writer. I bought her newest, NOT QUITE DATING and apparently many on her list did as well because within a few days, she hit the top 10 on Amazon. That's crazy!


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson

PamelaKelley said:


> Chiming in more as a reader than writer on this, but just wanted to add that I subscribe to very few writer lists, but the ones that I do subscribe to are auto-buys for me, and the minute I get that email with the link to buy the newest release, I buy it that day, usually within seconds of reading the email.
> 
> I just did that for Catherine Bybee, who sends occasional emails. She sends when she has updates on her progress, or a new cover for an upcoming book and the occasional interview with another writer. I bought her newest, NOT QUITE DATING and apparently many on her list did as well because within a few days, she hit the top 10 on Amazon. That's crazy!


Thanks for adding the reader's perspective, Pamela. I want to restrict the newsletter releases to the more important news bits, like you said Catherine Bybee does. FB and my blog are where I would post more frequently.

What would you say (or anyone who already does this) is an acceptable frequency of newsletter editions? Once or twice a month? Quarterly? The last thing I want is to clog up people's inboxes to the point where they either ignore the newsletter or unsubscribe. They need to be reassured that when they get one, there's something worth taking note of.


----------



## Victoria Champion

I have a Blogger blog under my imprint name where the only thing I post there is new releases. I added the _subscribe by email_ widget in the sidebar. Then I went to Feedburner (which was bought by Google who also owns Blogger so the service is synced), and on the _publicize_ tab got the text link for the subscription (after customizing preferences - but you don't have to it's fine as default). I put that text link in my ebook and also on my author website. Automatic mailing list with no limit on amount of subscribers. At Feedburner you can check the stats too.


----------



## Gregory Lynn

Victoria Champion said:


> I have a Blogger blog under my imprint name where the only thing I post there is new releases. I added the _subscribe by email_ widget in the sidebar. Then I went to Feedburner (which was bought by Google who also owns Blogger so the service is synced), and on the _publicize_ tab got the text link for the subscription (after customizing preferences - but you don't have to it's fine as default). I put that text link in my ebook and also on my author website. Automatic mailing list with no limit on amount of subscribers. At Feedburner you can check the stats too.


This is clever. Perhaps dangerously so.


----------



## Victoria Champion

Gregory Lynn said:


> This is clever. Perhaps dangerously so.


Your comment made me giggle inappropriately.


----------



## T. B. Crattie

This is good advice, so I'm bumping it.


----------



## Steve M

Ah ha! I lost track of this "Chock full o'Good Ideas" thread after it started back in August. Thanks to smreine for starting it and to athanos for resurrecting it. I'm surprised it was never made into a sticky...


----------



## Vlloyd

This is an amazing thread, and it is "Chock Full" of awesome ideas. My first novel is about halfway done and I need to start building a website and all that. I am starting from complete scratch...no following, no fb page or anything. Thanks for all the input everyone!


----------



## John Twipnook

Thanks Reine. It's all gold. Except the false modesty, lol.  Thanks for taking the time. Love your usual clarity and lack of self-aggrandizing pretense.


----------



## Krista D. Ball

I just want to add my pet peeve in here. It's so much of a pet peeve that I wrote an entire booklet just to vent about it  

If you have a blog, website, or even just use Twitter as your online presence, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE have a way that people can reach you!!


----------



## jdrew

I just found this and read some of it.  There is too much to read it all at once.  Every time I turn around there is more to do that takes away from writing.  Not complaining as this post is so full of good, easier-to-do-than-a-lot-of-things ideas, that all I can say is thanks to everyone who contributed.


----------



## Soothesayer

Krista D. Ball said:


> If you have a blog, website, or even just use Twitter as your online presence, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE have a way that people can reach you!!


And they certainly can...through my blog, website, or Twitter account.


----------



## Gregory Lynn

Soothesayer said:


> And they certainly can...through my blog, website, or Twitter account.


I'm pretty sure she means that if you have a web site, it should have a contact page where people can find at least your e-mail if not other ways of contacting you.

In short, if I want to send you an e-mail, don't make it hard for me.


----------



## Nicole Ciacchella

You've pretty much convinced me to give the mail list a shot.  I like using Twitter and FB just as fun tools, and I now have a blog schedule that works for me, but I'd rather invest the bulk of my time in things that work.  Maintaining a huge presence on a social media site like Twitter is a ginormous time sink, and I'd rather be writing.  I like how easy FB makes it to interact with readers, but their constant tinkering and filtering means they're sincerely hampering anyone's ability to access your content, even if they really, really want it.


----------



## TexasGirl

I'm late to coming back to this thread, but I wanted to speak on the contact issue.

While, yes, on my author page I have an email link, and through my small press site there is a contact form, on my main web site, the one with a million unique visitors a year, there is no way to reach me whatsoever other than buried on the page about suicide. When it was easy to contact me, I got about 50 emails a day, and it was a full-time job to respond to them.

About two years ago, I had to stop responding to comments, as there were about 100 of those a day on the various pages. I instead created a private Facebook group they could join, and in that way talk to each other, and I popped in once a day and had three or four moderators who also watched over the conversations.

I kept the suicide email link (and it goes direct to my cell phone and I stop everything no matter where I am--I will walk out of a movie and answer it in the hall even) because if someone clicks on that page, they are looking for help, and one of my life missions is to make sure they find it. After doing this for years I see a pattern that never ceases to amaze me, once a month near the full moon, I will get five to ten emails in quick succession, and then they practically stop until the next one. I prepare for this now, and am a total believer on how the tides affect our minds and bodies.

At any rate, sometimes there is no contact on a web site because the author forgot, and sometimes it isn't there on purpose.


----------



## folly

ok, this is very newbie-ish. I don't have a blog or website, nor do i want one at this time. i'm ok with fb and twitter at this time.  so, i don't have a website email to build a mailing list.  any suggestions from anyone about how to handle this? can i only do a mailing list when i break down and create a website?  i'm about to come out with a sequel and wanted to add something to the back of the 1st book about the sequel and a mailing list if possible.  TIA


----------



## jnfr

You can set up a mailing list through a service like MailChimp and then advertise it in whatever venue you want. You don't have to have a web site, but it helps to have one central place (a FB page for example) where people interested in your work can go to find out more.


----------



## folly

thanks for answering. the mailchimp guide to rookie mistakes or whatever it's called said to use a website's email not a personal one.  can you use your fb page instead of an email address to set up the mailing list?


----------



## jnfr

Are you talking about the email you use as a return address? I own my own site name so I used my email at the site, so I'm not at all sure what you would do. 

I think FB does have email now, but I don't even know how to access it (I have a page there, but I don't use it much at this point). You might try with that if you know how to use it. When I set up my return email all I had to do was click the confirmation link in the email they sent to that address, to prove it was an address I had access to. So not sure how strict a "business" address has to be.


----------



## IB

jnfr said:


> You can set up a mailing list through a service like MailChimp and then advertise it in whatever venue you want. You don't have to have a web site, but it helps to have one central place (a FB page for example) where people interested in your work can go to find out more.


So, when you use FB with MailChimp, you have a link on your FB pages asking people if they'd like to add their email to your mailing list?


----------



## 31842

smreine said:


> Well, I do also put naked photos on page 32, but I didn't want to tell people that part. They might start stealing my success.


You did mention this was the "dirty guide" to building sales... 

GREAT post, lady! As per usual... *Kate lights another candle at the altar of Reine*


----------



## jnfr

IB said:


> So, when you use FB with MailChimp, you have a link on your FB pages asking people if they'd like to add their email to your mailing list?


Well, you have to put the link somewhere. A post on your FB page isn't optimal (since they vanish over time), but it might work if you keep mentioning it. The thing about a web site is you can put the link up once and leave it. But if no one can find your newsletter link, no one can join it.


----------



## 60911

KateDanley said:


> GREAT post, lady! As per usual... *Kate lights another candle at the altar of Reine*


I know, right? I read her AMA on Reddit and started doing two fifteen minute writing sprints per hour today, had my best word count since the last time I finished a book.

A little off topic, but this thread has experienced more resuscitations than an 100+ year old man who can't keep himself out of the Bunny Ranch. Good info. (Not that analogy, that was horrible, wasn't it? Don't imagine it, whatever you do.)


----------



## IB

jnfr said:


> Well, you have to put the link somewhere. A post on your FB page isn't optimal (since they vanish over time), but it might work if you keep mentioning it. The thing about a web site is you can put the link up once and leave it. But if no one can find your newsletter link, no one can join it.


Can you put a permanent post under your banner somewhere?

(I know I need a website, but I've been unhappy with the ones I created myself... I was hoping I could create one on Tumblr, and transfer it to my domain name, but I stumbled through that process and didn't like the result... Though I still think it has the most DIY potential!)


----------



## 41413

You don't really need a site. Just link to the signup form in the backmatter of every book, and in your author bio.  Sites have other utility too, though.



RobertJCrane said:


> A little off topic, but this thread has experienced more resuscitations than an 100+ year old man who can't keep himself out of the Bunny Ranch. Good info. (Not that analogy, that was horrible, wasn't it? Don't imagine it, whatever you do.)


Amusingly, I grew up pretty close to the Bunny Ranch. The clientele is more diverse than you would expect.


----------



## Pnjw

A word on websites. It is very easy to set up a free wordpress.com site. I urge everyone to make something that readers can go to. They want to know what other books you have out and when your next release is coming out. I get a* lot* of hits on mine, and it is static until I have another release. So it took me one afternoon of my time to get it together. I get lots of email sign ups from there.

I personally think a website is a must.


----------



## folly

smreine said:


> You don't really need a site. Just link to the signup form in the backmatter of every book, and in your author bio.  Sites have other utility too, though.


But don't you need a non-personal email to set it up? that's what mailchimp said.


----------



## 60911

folly said:


> But don't you need a non-personal email to set it up? that's what mailchimp said.


Just set up an account at gmail or yahoo for your authorial/business use; the idea being that mail chimp assumes you don't want the people on your list to have your personal email address. (As a side note, they also display your physical address to all your subscribers, which is why I went to the local UPS store and got a mailbox there; no stalkers for me, tyvm).


----------



## 41413

RobertJCrane said:


> Just set up an account at gmail or yahoo for your authorial/business use; the idea being that mail chimp assumes you don't want the people on your list to have your personal email address. (As a side note, they also display your physical address to all your subscribers, which is why I went to the local UPS store and got a mailbox there; no stalkers for me, tyvm).


*ducks into bushes to hide*

I have an @smreine.com email through Google Apps that I've been using for my mailing list, but you can use normal emails, too.


----------



## jnfr

I have email through my web site, but also keep a UPS Store box for business purposes too. It's an expense, so not everyone will want one, but when I need to register domains or otherwise give an address, I'd rather keep my home out of it.


----------



## Ciye Cho

Can anyone tell me if I need to disclose my real name within each mailchimp emails? I'm fine with the whole physical address thing.

@smreine: thanks again for this great post.


----------



## Zoe Cannon

N. Gemini Sasson said:


> What would you say (or anyone who already does this) is an acceptable frequency of newsletter editions? Once or twice a month? Quarterly? The last thing I want is to clog up people's inboxes to the point where they either ignore the newsletter or unsubscribe. They need to be reassured that when they get one, there's something worth taking note of.


As a reader, I like newsletters that only announce new releases, upcoming releases, and possibly sale prices. If an author sends out a chatty newsletter once or twice a month, I usually unsubscribe. I sign up for newsletters because I don't want to lose track of an author I like and their future books; if I want more chatty updates from authors I like (and sometimes that _is _what I'm looking for), I go to Facebook.


----------



## 41413

Ciye Cho said:


> Can anyone tell me if I need to disclose my real name within each mailchimp emails? I'm fine with the whole physical address thing.


No disclosure necessary. SM Reine is a pseudonym, and it's all that are attached to my emails.

*As for frequency*: I strongly, STRONGLY recommend only using your newsletter to let your readers know a new book is out. Save everything else for social media.


----------



## Pnjw

I only send a newsletter out when I have a new release, a sale, or a contest (usually corresponds with a sale). And I keep my sale and contest letters to a minimum. Like maybe three or four of those a year.


----------



## Ciye Cho

smreine said:


> No disclosure necessary. SM Reine is a pseudonym, and it's all that are attached to my emails.
> 
> *As for frequency*: I strongly, STRONGLY recommend only using your newsletter to let your readers know a new book is out. Save everything else for social media.


Hi smreine. Thanks for the info. This has been really useful! I'm off to start mine now !


----------



## Ciye Cho

Is there a way to register without entering your company name? I have a sole trader business name, but I don't think it's relevant... and I'm guessing that it'll just confuse subscribers to have it inside the emails.

When I try to register, it says I need to fill in the company name section. Did I miss the individual account setup and stumble on the company one?


----------



## 67499

smreine:  I just came across your KB guide to slowly building sales and it's terrific.  I'm a devout introvert who just wants to write - your advice and approach, and all the many comments by others, have opened new doors to me and I thank you.  BTW, your writing is excellent and you richly deserve your success.  Cheers!


----------



## jdrew

The good ideas just keep growing here.  Now to find time to do some of these things and still write.
Thanks to everyone.


----------



## Hannah Holborn

Thank you Sara! I'm writing a series and found your post very helpful and inspiring!

Cheers,

Hannah


----------



## legion

Thanks bumpers!
What a wealth of information in this thread.


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin

I'm a lazy person (or just too busy with other stuff), so I haven't subscribed to mailchimp yet. However, there was some talk about competitors who are more 'economical', i.e. more that 2000 free subscribers? Who are the competitors to MailChimp?

I have a 'subscribe to my blog' feature where currently 45 followers, and 2,000 actually sounds like a lot of subscribers, but are there alternatives?


----------



## 41413

Glad to see people are still finding this thread useful! 



AmsterdamAssassin said:


> I'm a lazy person (or just too busy with other stuff), so I haven't subscribed to mailchimp yet. However, there was some talk about competitors who are more 'economical', i.e. more that 2000 free subscribers? Who are the competitors to MailChimp?
> 
> I have a 'subscribe to my blog' feature where currently 45 followers, and 2,000 actually sounds like a lot of subscribers, but are there alternatives?


I'm no longer using MailChimp, as my list has become too big for the free option. Instead, I use an SMTP service (SMTP, incidentally) and a mass mailing program on my computer called Direct Mail for Mac. The software is $99, and two years with SMTP for up to 5000 emails a month was something like $150 when I signed up.


----------



## Victoria Champion

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> I'm a lazy person (or just too busy with other stuff), so I haven't subscribed to mailchimp yet. However, there was some talk about competitors who are more 'economical', i.e. more that 2000 free subscribers? Who are the competitors to MailChimp?
> 
> I have a 'subscribe to my blog' feature where currently 45 followers, and 2,000 actually sounds like a lot of subscribers, but are there alternatives?


I use the 'subscribe by email to my blog' widget at google's blogger, which is controlled by google's feedburner. I only post updates about new releases. I can get statistics and customize my emails at feedburner. There is no limit on number of subscribers, and it's free. I also provide a text link to it in the back matter of my ebooks.


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin

smreine said:


> I'm no longer using MailChimp, as my list has become too big for the free option. Instead, I use an SMTP service (SMTP, incidentally) and a mass mailing program on my computer called Direct Mail for Mac. The software is $99, and two years with SMTP for up to 5000 emails a month was something like $150 when I signed up.


I have a MacBook with the latest OS, so that looks good. SMTP is like MailChimp, but less expensive, I gather? I checked the Direct Mail for Mac and it says '50 emails free per month', but I guess that means '1 email to 50 recipients', not '50 newsletters to 7000 recipients', right? By the way, how many recipients do you have, at the moment?

Oh, and another question - was it difficult to transfer your mailing list from MailChimp to your new digs?


----------



## Seanathin23

Glad to see I'm on the right track if I can just get on the ball and set everything up and get going.


----------



## 41413

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> I have a MacBook with the latest OS, so that looks good. SMTP is like MailChimp, but less expensive, I gather? I checked the Direct Mail for Mac and it says '50 emails free per month', but I guess that means '1 email to 50 recipients', not '50 newsletters to 7000 recipients', right? By the way, how many recipients do you have, at the moment?
> 
> Oh, and another question - was it difficult to transfer your mailing list from MailChimp to your new digs?


Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this. 

SMTP is a mail server that allows you to send more emails than your email provider normally would. For example, if you send more than 500 emails through Gmail's servers in one day, they'll prevent more outgoing mail from passing through your account; SMTP doesn't have that restriction. You set up Direct Mail using SMTP's email servers instead of your mailing list provider's, and then it's pretty much identical to MailChimp.


----------



## Jos Van Brussel

Thanks for this. Great information for a newbie  .


----------



## StrokerChase

Mailing lists are great! Right now I have an offer where you can sign up for mine and receive a free short story, so I'm hoping that will be an incentive. Then I put a link to the mailing list after every story. I still would like to get more people to join, but over time I should see a good amount. Gotta be patient.


----------



## jcfalch

Dear SM Reine, thank you for this golden advice. It is appreciated by us newbies. I had never even thought about a mailing list. Will have one by my next book release.

Cheers! John in Jakarta


----------



## KellyHarper

I get so excited every time I get a notification about a new subscriber. I just hit 32... which is low... but I'm OK with that . Part of me would like to build a steady following over a period of time vs. having hundreds of subscribers a day. It feels more real(istic).

That part of me does not get along with the part of me that likes to go shopping.

Great information here -- thank you for sharing!


----------



## Jason Eric Pryor

SBJones said:


> I used the embed email function in Word and simply put "Want to find out about new releases? Join the mailing list at EMAIL".
> The embed email link lets you pre fill out subject and body so all someone has to do is click on it and send it. I then use an email rule to look for the pre filled subject line and it auto adds their email to my mailing group.


That's a good idea, but I do see one problem. Depending on how many people you get on your list, you may not be able to email them all. Your internet provider that you have your email service through can have problems sending mass emails. It puts a strain on your ISP. That's why people use email list services like mailchimp. They are equiped to send mass emails. I'm no expert. Just letting you know what I've found while researching the subject.


----------



## Susan Kaye Quinn

Thanks for bumping this thread!

I have a question: for those of you using Mailchimp, do you design up a pretty newsletter header, etc. or do you just use plain text? I've been going the "pretty" route all along, but now I wonder if I'm getting blocked as spam because of it. My open rates are usually around 35% (66% for my dedicated newsletter for my serial, but those fans are DEDICATED).


----------



## WG McCabe

SMReine is a peach.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Patrick Szabo said:


> SMReine is a peach.


LIES. She's an apricot.


----------



## Victoria Champion

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> LIES. She's an apricot.


She's also MIA.


----------



## Not Here Anymore

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> Thanks for bumping this thread!
> 
> I have a question: for those of you using Mailchimp, do you design up a pretty newsletter header, etc. or do you just use plain text? I've been going the "pretty" route all along, but now I wonder if I'm getting blocked as spam because of it. My open rates are usually around 35% (66% for my dedicated newsletter for my serial, but those fans are DEDICATED).


Hi Susan,

I have a header--very plain, black box with a typewriter and my website addy--but it is a designed header. Just checked my open rates. They're between 67% and 76%. Not sure why it's that's high, but I'm glad.


----------



## Christa Wick

I'm just giving this a bump for newbies. I hope that's permitted. Too bad the thread isn't stickied!


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

This is a great thread, very deserving of a bump!


----------



## 31842

Just wanted to say that I put together a mailing list and promoted it via Facebook and Twitter and my blog... and not a whole lot of action.  But I recently republished all of my titles with a "Did you like what you read?  Join my mailing list!" and the link immediately after my story ended (even before the About the Author and Other Titles Available pages).  Lots of new subscribers!  And most of them are people I don't know!  This is good!  Thank you, SM!


----------



## 41419

Christa Wick said:


> I'm just giving this a bump for newbies. I hope that's permitted. Too bad the thread isn't stickied!


Totally worth bumping. We should have a rota or something.


----------



## CLStone

Bumping. 

And to say that I totally off adding a newsletter for a while and regret it since there were lots of books sold that readers might have signed up for it and now don't know about.


----------



## Becca Mills

It's tough to choose a "most helpful KB thread ever," but this one has my vote, just edging out about a hundred very close competitors.


----------



## 41413

I'm glad that people are still finding this helpful after so long.


----------



## Krista D. Ball

smreine said:


> I'm glad that people are still finding this helpful after so long.


It is just total rubbish. I mean, really. Work hard? Try your best? Think smart? Make sound business decisions? What the hell is that?


----------



## 60911

Krista D. Ball said:


> It is just total rubbish. I mean, really. Work hard? Try your best? Think smart? Make sound business decisions? What the hell is that?


Totes bulls***. I prefer to write books no one could possibly be interested in, taking as long as I can to do so (five years per 50,000 words is optimal - you know, to really polish the prose) and then heave them into the market like that unwanted child I cast off the Tallahatchee bridge at age 16.


----------



## ElHawk

I started working with mailing lists around the end of last year, and the results have been noticeable!  The nice thing about a mailing list is that you KNOW the people on it WANT to receive news from you.  So your time spent working with it is not time wasted, guaranteed.

I used mine to rapidly rack up reviews of my newest book by offering a free copy of the next book to come to the first ten mailing list subscribers who reviewed it on Amazon.  Worked great!


----------



## Guest

Victoria Champion said:


> She's also MIA.


I think she's ascended to self-publishing heaven, along with David Daglish and a few other choice souls. Hugh Howey is up there too, but they sent him back as an archangel to help guide the rest of us mortals. Kind of like Gandalf the Gray, except with a six-pack.


----------



## WG McCabe

Question about mailing lists. When you include a link in the back of the book is that a link to your website, where the mailing list sign up is located? Or is it a direct link to sign up for the list?


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Patrick Szabo said:


> Question about mailing lists. When you include a link in the back of the book is that a link to your website, where the mailing list sign up is located? Or is it a direct link to sign up for the list?


You can do either.
I use a Wordpress plugin to redirect from my URL to the mailing list form on MailChimp, it looks nicer: http://irmageddon.com/mailing-list


----------



## Ryan Sullivan

I've had a mailing list since the start, BUT I did just republish it so the first thing you see after the epilogue is "Did you like what you read? Join the mailing list!" then a link. I stole those sentences from someone on the first page of this thread who said it worked.  Then afterwards on the same page I have my Facebook and Twitter links. Next page is Acknowledgements, then the last page is About the Author.


----------



## WG McCabe

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> You can do either.
> I use a Wordpress plugin to redirect from my URL to the mailing list form on MailChimp, it looks nicer: http://irmageddon.com/mailing-list


Coolness. I use Wordpress as well so I'll have to get that plugin. Thanks, Nathalie!


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Patrick Szabo said:


> Coolness. I use Wordpress as well so I'll have to get that plugin. Thanks, Nathalie!


It's called Pretty Link Lite and you can find it here: http://wordpress.org/plugins/pretty-link/
The free version is enough to do that, no need to upgrade.


----------



## Christa Wick

I wish I had started a mail list from the beginning. I wish, in lieu of that, I had started a mail list when everyone in my closer writing circle said "you have to...here are my results." But I didn't until beginning of this month.

My reluctance stemmed in part because I gave people the option of an informal email list (send me your email I'll send you notices) and after a year, I had received only 6 requests. Today, about 2 weeks of having the mail chimp list set up - 100! And I haven't bribed anyone directly yet. Never underestimate the draw of being able to unsubscribe without engaging the list host as a force that facilitates subscribing.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Joe Vasicek said:


> I think she's ascended to self-publishing heaven, along with David Daglish and a few other choice souls.  Hugh Howey is up there too, but they sent him back as an archangel to help guide the rest of us mortals. Kind of like Gandalf the Gray, except with a six-pack.


Hahahahah! Love that bit.


----------



## jdrew

Okay, I get it.  Time to get a mail list going.  And with the info here I shouldn't have any trouble.
Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Alexandra C

Hi Guys,
I haven't read all the thread so if the information is there I apologize in advance. I set up a facebook fan page. My website is an empty shell right now. I had an unexpected promo opportunity that may drive interest to my books (which are still in development and editing stage). I'm hoping for release dates for two of my books around late summer/early fall. Any suggestions on what wording to use on fb page or website to entice subscribers? Wonder if anyone has some copy success they would like to share? I plan to put some excerpts up and I have my book covers up as well.  Should I offer a free chapter for subscribers only?  Maybe a scene that got cut or alternate point of view? What would make you sign up for a brand new author's mailing list before the books are out?


----------



## HezBa

Alexandra C said:


> Hi Guys,
> I haven't read all the thread so if the information is there I apologize in advance. I set up a facebook fan page. My website is an empty shell right now. I had an unexpected promo opportunity that may drive interest to my books (which are still in development and editing stage). I'm hoping for release dates for two of my books around late summer/early fall. Any suggestions on what wording to use on fb page or website to entice subscribers? Wonder if anyone has some copy success they would like to share? I plan to put some excerpts up and I have my book covers up as well. Should I offer a free chapter for subscribers only? Maybe a scene that got cut or alternate point of view? What would make you sign up for a brand new author's mailing list before the books are out?


I think you may be putting the cart before the horse. Readers aren't going to come if you have nothing to offer (yet). At least that is what I think, and I am no expert. But I have been at this a year now and I have to say, it's not easy getting subscribers even when you have a book or a blog to offer.
Offering a free chapter isn't particularly enticing, to be honest (sorry ) You should be offering samples or excerpts on your website to anyone who wants to read it. Readers will be able to read the sample on Amazon and Smashwords once it's available and why would they want to read it before it's even published?
I would concentrate on 
1) getting your books published so that you have more than promises to promote
2) starting a blog. 
3) getting social so that you can meet people who write/read in your genre. Join websites like Goodreads, LibraryThing, Twitter, etc, and start connecting with people.
None of that will guarantee you sales though and if you don't enjoy it and only intend to use it to promote, it might go badly for you. If that is the case, I would just stick to getting the books published. That is really your first and most important step at this point.
Good luck!


----------



## Writerly Writer

HezBa said:


> I think you may be putting the cart before the horse. Readers aren't going to come if you have nothing to offer (yet). At least that is what I think, and I am no expert. But I have been at this a year now and I have to say, it's not easy getting subscribers even when you have a book or a blog to offer.
> Offering a free chapter isn't particularly enticing, to be honest (sorry ) You should be offering samples or excerpts on your website to anyone who wants to read it. Readers will be able to read the sample on Amazon and Smashwords once it's available and why would they want to read it before it's even published?
> I would concentrate on
> 1) getting your books published so that you have more than promises to promote
> 2) starting a blog.
> 3) getting social so that you can meet people who write/read in your genre. Join websites like Goodreads, LibraryThing, Twitter, etc, and start connecting with people.
> None of that will guarantee you sales though and if you don't enjoy it and only intend to use it to promote, it might go badly for you. If that is the case, I would just stick to getting the books published. That is really your first and most important step at this point.
> Good luck!


I'm not saying your experience is incorrect. I'm sure it happened that way, but I found some great fans for my first book before I even released it by releasing chapters through twitter/my website/ mail chimp. I hadn't released any books and I already had 10 Mailchimp subscribers. That's not a lot of subscribers, but they've turned out to be extremely loyal fans and a couple are now my beta readers.

Oh... the problem with drawing a statement about a whole from individual experience


----------



## L M May

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> LIES. She's an apricot.


Thought I recognized your cover - I have your first book. It was the cover that got my attention in the first place 

In the middle of a book at the moment, but have moved yours up my list. I have found a few great reads from peoples signatures - just wish I had more time to read goddammit!!


----------



## HezBa

KJCOLT said:


> I'm not saying your experience is incorrect. I'm sure it happened that way, but I found some great fans for my first book before I even released it by releasing chapters through twitter/my website/ mail chimp. I hadn't released any books and I already had 10 Mailchimp subscribers. That's not a lot of subscribers, but they've turned out to be extremely loyal fans and a couple are now my beta readers.
> 
> Oh... the problem with drawing a statement about a whole from individual experience


That's great that you had a good experience , but we're talking about slightly different situations. 
1) you released chapters (not only one) and through many outlets, not as a one off prize for subscribing (as I suggested doing in my post)
2)You are offering something (several chapters in this case, in places where I assume you had already established a presence) that would draw subscribers or fans. (Like I suggested in my post)
3) I didn't say that it would never work, I only said that it is putting the cart before the horse. You should have something to promote before you start promoting, IMHO, or you run the risk of wasting your time.
Sure, maybe it can get you a handful of subscribers, but that isn't going to generate anything but warm and fuzzy feelings until you actually have something to sell them.
I didn't say that she couldn't do it, and if she wants to she is more than welcome, I just think her time would be better spent else where. And it's great that you got 10 subscribers out of your promotion, but it's possible that you could have gotten more by simply releasing it and moving on to the next story. And then there's that little issue you mentioned yourself....just because it happened for you, doesn't mean it will happen for everyone .

Again, I am no expert and I don't want to tell you or anyone what to do, that is just my opinion.

Best of luck regardless!


----------



## kwest

Hey SM, thanks for this post. I've been looking for an easy way to promote, as someone who just likes to write. I've incorporated this mailing list thing in the back of my books two days ago, and already have three subs! That's pretty inspiring, especially considering I don't get too many sales to begin with. Just wish I could have found this forum earlier so that I could have done this from the beginning!


----------



## Natasha Holme

I have only had a 'Sign up for new release notification' textbox right at the top of my website for months. *No-one* has signed up. Thank you so much for the nudge to include the info at the back of my book.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

L M May said:


> Thought I recognized your cover - I have your first book. It was the cover that got my attention in the first place
> 
> In the middle of a book at the moment, but have moved yours up my list. I have found a few great reads from peoples signatures - just wish I had more time to read goddammit!!


Thank you so much! 
I hope you enjoy reading it! It's been a work of love for more than three years (3 NaNoWriMos), and I am just now editing them and publishing them.
The story grabbed me in the guts and didn't let go.

And on that creepy note, I'll go back to my zombie den.


----------



## Alexandra C

osted by: KJCOLT

Quote from: HezBa on Yesterday at 10:15:10 PM
"I think you may be putting the cart before the horse. Readers aren't going to come if you have nothing to offer (yet). At least that is what I think, and I am no expert. But I have been at this a year now and I have to say, it's not easy getting subscribers even when you have a book or a blog to offer.
Offering a free chapter isn't particularly enticing, to be honest (sorry Embarrassed) You should be offering samples or excerpts on your website to anyone who wants to read it. Readers will be able to read the sample on Amazon and Smashwords once it's available and why would they want to read it before it's even published?
I would concentrate on
1) getting your books published so that you have more than promises to promote
2) starting a blog.
3) getting social so that you can meet people who write/read in your genre. Join websites like Goodreads, LibraryThing, Twitter, etc, and start connecting with people.
None of that will guarantee you sales though and if you don't enjoy it and only intend to use it to promote, it might go badly for you. If that is the case, I would just stick to getting the books published. That is really your first and most important step at this point.
Good luck!"



KJCOLT said:


> I'm not saying your experience is incorrect. I'm sure it happened that way, but I found some great fans for my first book before I even released it by releasing chapters through twitter/my website/ mail chimp. I hadn't released any books and I already had 10 Mailchimp subscribers. That's not a lot of subscribers, but they've turned out to be extremely loyal fans and a couple are now my beta readers.
> 
> Oh... the problem with drawing a statement about a whole from individual experience


Thanks for your replies. I do plan on putting up excerpts/samples on my facebook page and web page(when I finish it). Thanks for the push  I didn't intend to market so far out but I had an unexpected opportunity that may drive interest to my facebook page. I figured while people were there it wouldn't hurt to put up a mailing list (which I plan to do anyway). I agree I may be putting the cart before the horse If I had to do it again I would have focused on getting my book finished before I even started the marketing process. I appreciate HezBa's feedback. Thank you KJCOLT for sharing your experience as well and congratulations on your early success. I'm sure much more will follow.


----------



## Michael_J_Sullivan

olefish said:


> How do you build your mailing list?


Here are a few articles I wrote related to that:


Marketing 101: Email Lists Management Software
Marketing 101: Strategies for Growing your Email List


----------



## Sam Edge

This has been a great thread. It seems like its and chicken and egg though. Its getting the ball rolling that is the hard part. I've really only been doing this for few months. So far I have 27 people on my mail list. My KDP free promotions have been dismal with only about 100 / day going out. With the low conversion rate this has hurt me. I almost think its worth paying for some promotion with the KDP promotions. to gain some traction.


----------



## 41413

Sam Edge said:


> This has been a great thread. It seems like its and chicken and egg though. Its getting the ball rolling that is the hard part. I've really only been doing this for few months. So far I have 27 people on my mail list. My KDP free promotions have been dismal with only about 100 / day going out. With the low conversion rate this has hurt me. I almost think its worth paying for some promotion with the KDP promotions. to gain some traction.


Two things:

1. Yeah, it is kind of chicken and egg. Mailing lists aren't terribly useful until you...you know..._have a mailing list_. Since this strategy relies on series releases anyway, I'd probably add "abuse the heck out of loss leaders" (permafree book #1 in particular) to help get the ball rolling and build that initial stable of readers. I might get around to updating this post someday - it's kind of old and some of my opinions have shifted since I wrote it.

2. OMFG YOUR BABY IS SOOOO CUTE AND SOOOO SNUGGLY


----------



## Sam Edge

Hey thanks - this post is awesome.


----------



## Guest

Out of curiosity, which opinions have shifted?


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell

Joe Vasicek said:


> Out of curiosity, which opinions have shifted?


I second that question.


----------



## Wansit

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> I second that question.


Thirded - tell us SM


----------



## Eric C

smreine said:


> Well, I do also put naked photos on page 32, but I didn't want to tell people that part. They might start stealing my success.


I see you use different naked photos for each book. Nice touch!


----------



## 41413

Sam Edge said:


> Hey thanks - this post is awesome.


Yeah, well, YOU'RE awesome.



Joe Vasicek said:


> Out of curiosity, which opinions have shifted?


My mailing list is still my #1 sales tool, and I don't think that any of the information in the original post is wrong, really.

The main problem is what Sam Edge and his adorable newborn pointed out: a mailing list isn't helpful until you have sales. Enrollments tend to occur as a percentage of sales, so if you don't already have sales, you don't have enrollments. You need some other way to start stuffing your cheek pouches with reader emails. You can build that foundation in a wide variety of ways (and you may not need it at all depending on what genre you're in), but where do you get those first readers if you're a social outcast hermit that never wears pants? It's kind of a big hole in the OP.

If you're very strategic about your releases, you can rely on nothing but new books and a mailing list after you have X number of emails. (No idea what that number is - it's going to vary by author, so I won't guess at it.) But you just have to get to that magical number first. I think that the original post stated too firmly that a mailing list is "all" you need. For some people, it will be. For many others (including me)...not so much. I wish that I had included suggestions for starting out in the original thread.

As I said elsewhere, I'm a fan of permafree as a loss leader to jump start the mailing list. If I were to rewrite the original post, I would definitely include that. (To be fair, I was using Select free last year. Permafree has been my 2013 thing. I wasn't prescient, so let's cut 2012 SM Reine a break.)

Some stats about my mailing list:


The book I launched in September 2012 (shortly after the original post) sold 200 copies in its first 2 weeks. My mailing list was 550 names. I earned $500.
The book I launched in September 2013 sold 2500 copies in its first 2 weeks. My mailing list was 4000 names. I earned $6500.
The September 2013 book launched to ~#500 in the store.* I don't remember where the September 2012 book launched, but it probably wasn't above #10,000 in the store.
My mailing list is currently approaching 4500 names. The rate of growth seems to exponentially increase. It took a lot less time to get from 3000 > 4000 than from 500 > 1500, for instance.

* _This is really low for that number of names. I'm on my fourth (FOURTH) series now, and a lot of folks just haven't bought into my new stuff. BUT THAT'S OKAY. I'm growing slow and steady and I'm still a hermit, so I feel like the mailing list thing has been pretty awesome._

I hope that satisfies all y'all's curiosity about my throbbing, betentacled opinion.


----------



## Pnjw

I will echo Sara. My number one way to get mailing list signups was/is through permafree. When I first went permafree in 2012 my list started to grow like crazy. My list isn't as big as hers, but I do manage to launch new books to about 300 on Amazon those first few days. So the ones I have are loyal.


----------



## Michael Buckley

smreine said:


> Well, I do also put naked photos on page 32, but I didn't want to tell people that part. They might start stealing my success.


At 55 I think my readers would run, head for the hills if I put my naked pictures on page 32


----------



## 68564

Yeah, I REALLY wish I started my mailing list sooner. Running hard now to get get it built and not getting far yet... ah well all in time I guess.


----------



## Eric Rasbold

You best advice is number 4 - The books shouldn't suck.

I like the word "shouldn't" not "can't" suck.

Wizard.


----------



## Nomadwoman

Im totally confused by the mailing list thing - How does permafree help you get sign-ups (esp in an arena now that people are very fed up of offerings from every soul with hoover brushes to sell)? Could it be that perma works for you SMReine because of the exponential factor and would be less effective for someone starting from scratch? 

Also - are you blogging? Google requires regular consistent blogging - tough for the hermits unless we get into egomaniac posting of word counts. Getting eyes on websites is way tougher now - not to be a downer, I'm just mad as Ive had a followed blog since 2008 but it's stuck in Typepad hell


----------



## Sam Edge

Nomadwoman said:


> Im totally confused by the mailing list thing - How does permafree help you get sign-ups (esp in an arena now that people are very fed up of offerings from every soul with hoover brushes to sell)?


Well perma free exposes people to your work and hopefully wets their appetite for more. I offer a free eBook when you subscribe to my site so there is incentive to join - so far it has been painfully slow. Like 5 a week. Also my free eBook is good (I think) but it's pretty dry and information based. I'm not sure if my strategy is the bet. I am super new too so I'm just trying ot be patient.


----------



## matthewblake

How exactly do you put the form at the end of the book?  Just get the base HTML form from them and then copy the code onto the last page?


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

matthewblake said:


> How exactly do you put the form at the end of the book? Just get the base HTML form from them and then copy the code onto the last page?


You link to it.


----------



## 41413

Nomadwoman said:


> Im totally confused by the mailing list thing - How does permafree help you get sign-ups (esp in an arena now that people are very fed up of offerings from every soul with hoover brushes to sell)? Could it be that perma works for you SMReine because of the exponential factor and would be less effective for someone starting from scratch?
> 
> Also - are you blogging? Google requires regular consistent blogging - tough for the hermits unless we get into egomaniac posting of word counts. Getting eyes on websites is way tougher now - not to be a downer, I'm just mad as Ive had a followed blog since 2008 but it's stuck in Typepad hell


Permafree is probably going to help you get mailing list signups any time you're getting more free downloads than sales. It means more people reading your book than they would have otherwise.

And no, I don't blog anymore. It's not part of my lazy hermit strategies. There are other strategies that have more of that, I'm sure.


----------



## OwenBaillie

This thread is a ripper, thanks SMReine  I've read it a few times, and recently implemented a few of the strategies. I have a full length novel due to be published in a few weeks but I managed to get a 106 page sample made perma-free almost a week ago, and since that happened, things have _happened_. Reviews are coming in every day, and my mailing list, which I only added five days ago, is also growing rapidly. This sort of advice is soooo valuable, I'd hate to have missed it! So thanks again


----------



## Ryan Sullivan

OwenBaillie said:


> This thread is a ripper, thanks SMReine  I've read it a few times, and recently implemented a few of the strategies. I have a full length novel due to be published in a few weeks but I managed to get a 106 page sample made perma-free almost a week ago, and since that happened, things have _happened_. Reviews are coming in every day, and my mailing list, which I only added five days ago, is also growing rapidly. This sort of advice is soooo valuable, I'd hate to have missed it! So thanks again


106 page permafree sample, you say?


----------



## P.A. Woodburn

I've read this entire thread this evening. Thanks SMReine it is most useful. I would like to clarify one point. Anyone in the know can answer. A couple of people mentioned having a UPS Mail box for mail chimp. Do you have to have a UPS box with a street address or can you use a regular post office PO BOX. The PO BOX is a lot cheaper I have to renew mine by Friday or let it go or pay an extra $20.00. I was keeping this box totally for Mail Chimp. If the PO BOX is not acceptable for mail chimp I'll let it go and sign up with UPS.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

One thing with mailing lists, which I agree are a must. Links in the front and back matter should be something we automatically include but you have to be aware that even though readers sign up, they don't automatically click to open those mails when they come into their inbox, and of those that do open them, not all will buy what you're offering.

I know this seems obvious, but I think the industry standard says the ratio between mails sent to mails opened is quite low. For example, according to my reports on mailchimp only 53% of readers even open my mails. So although I have 600 or more on my list, I might as well call that 300 if I want to be realistic. What I am getting at here is when considering how many you "need", please double the number you first thought of and you'll be about right 

Mailchimp is free for the first 2000 and I thought that would be about right. Now I know for certain I WILL be paying for a "pro" account at some point. I'll need 4000 for sure. Not that I will ever be satisfied. Bigger is better


----------



## Austin_Briggs

Well, I've launched this strategy this week on one of my series for children. I've set the first book permafree this week, added links to my list in the front and back matter, and even threw in a free audiobook download as an incentive to sign up in an exciting new twist of my own.

Will see how it works... For now, I've had about 90 free downloads after 2 days in this strategy. No sign-ups yet. I hope it'll grow as the advertising kicks in.

It's interesting to see the difference in scale between Amazon and other channels. Amazon = 90 free downloads in 2 days. Kobo = 1; Apple = 1.

Thanks for all the advice!


----------



## leep

markecooper said:


> I know this seems obvious, but I think the industry standard says the ratio between mails sent to mails opened is quite low. For example, according to my reports on mailchimp only 53% of readers even open my mails. So although I have 600 or more on my list, I might as well call that 300 if I want to be realistic. What I am getting at here is when considering how many you "need", please double the number you first thought of and you'll be about right


As someone who used to work at an ESP (Email Service Provider), and who still deals with them on a daily basis, you may be being misled here.

In order for someone to count as a read, they need to either download the images or click a link. Most ESPs track opens using a small image, and most email clients (including webmail clients like Gmail) block images by default (which is why all the important content should be in text). So someone could open and read you message without actually being recorded as an open.

Just saying.


----------



## Lyndawrites

*Sigh*

Four books out. Eleven - yes, that's 11 - sign-ups, in 48 weeks. Two of them are the same person with different email addresses, and one is my best friend. 

Ah, well. I can dream.


----------



## dmburnett

This is wonderful advice! My subscriber list grows super slow, but I have a super high open and follow through rate, so I'll take it and be very happy. I use Mail Chimp and am very pleased with their service. I get sign ups a variety of ways....

1. I always include the signup link in my books
2. Set my most popular book perma-free and made sure that the signup link was prominently displayed
3. I have it on my site homepage and blog page http://www.danamichelleburnett.com/ and a hoover ad with it as well.
4. I have a dedicated page to it on my site, linked from the menu http://www.danamichelleburnett.com/hearts-free-stuff-hearts.html
5. I have it as a tab on my Facebook page and promote it from time to time in my Facebook Page newsfeed.
6. I promote it now and then on Twitter (maybe once a month)

As far as content and frequency for the newsletter, I send out "chapter reveals", "cover reveals", and such about two weeks before they go on my site or blog. I sometimes run "fan exclusive" sales on books where only my subscribers get the coupon codes. For my new releases (and because my list is small and dedicated), I offer coupon codes for a free copy. I tend to get a review from almost every download and most of them promote the book (at its full price) on their own Facebook and Twitter profiles. Depending on what I'm working on, my newsletters may go out twice a month or every other month.


----------



## lazarusInfinity

Thanks for the advice.  I appreciate it.


----------



## 48306

This is such a great thread. Thanks for starting it, Sara.

Another really good tip I got on growing your mailing list is to never interact or send out information (emails, blog posts, etc) without your mailing list sign up info on there. Think of it as a lost opportunity and always strive to close that gap every chance you get. Your links don't have to be big..they can be very understated, but they just need to BE THERE! 

This is what I've done.

* Sign up for my mailing list in the front and back matter of my eBooks.
* Mailing list sign up in the sidebar on my website. It's a big graphic I created that you click that takes you to the sign up form on mail chimp. That sidebar is on my home page and my blog and I mention signed up for my newsletter and link to it at the bottom of each of my books' pages.
* I always include social links in my signature line in my emails. Signing up for my newsletter is one of those links. I have a set signature (with links), bio and picture that I include in all my emails back to bloggers when they do an interview or ask me to guest post.
* I've added the Newsletter sign up tab to my Facebook page. I SHOULD add it to my Twitter page, but the bio area is full right now. Does any one know if you can include clickable links on your background page on Twitter?
* I include links (it might not be clickable but it's THERE) at the bottom of every bio that allows it on each of the online stores. I do the same in my bio on Goodreads. 

Things I need to be better about. Reminding readers every so often to sign up for my newsletter on FB and Twitter.


----------



## hardnutt

Thanks for all the tips on newsletter design. I've had a go at giving my boring old sign-up form a little more oomph.

I don't know about a few minutes' Julie, this has taken me HOURS! And it's still not how I wanted it. Every time I tried to insert a picture, everything went skewiff. So I gave up on that idea and just kept it to text.

Here's the link: http://eepurl.com/AKjSj

What do you think? I don't reckon it's too bad for a first effort. I wish I found mailchimp easier to get to grips with. Every time I want to try something, it confounds me.


----------



## Christa Wick

It looks good, Geraldine. For some reason my wordpress has given me issues (perhaps my template) and my subscribe button took about 6 hours of mucking around and google searching to get a resolution -- so you should feel like a Warrior for this being your first time!

I do wonder why you have "website" as a required field (most won't have) and what you think people will think when prompted on the "ebook reviewers" field?


----------



## hardnutt

Thanks, Christa!  Pleased you like it.

Re the website and reviewer sections - they seemed like a good idea at the time! Hmm. Something else to think about. :-(

My poor brain is worn out with all the technological stuff we're expected to get ageing (mine!) grey cells around. Glad I'm not the only one feeling lost and left behind.
Regards.
Geraldine


----------



## Kat Lilynette

hardnutt said:


> Thanks for all the tips on newsletter design. I've had a go at giving my boring old sign-up form a little more oomph.
> 
> I don't know about a few minutes' Julie, this has taken me HOURS! And it's still not how I wanted it. Every time I tried to insert a picture, everything went skewiff. So I gave up on that idea and just kept it to text.
> 
> Here's the link: http://eepurl.com/AKjSj
> 
> What do you think? I don't reckon it's too bad for a first effort. I wish I found mailchimp easier to get to grips with. Every time I want to try something, it confounds me.


Just a little advice from my past experiences with newsletters outside of the writing game: The less information you ask for upon signup, the more signups you will get. I like to just go for email and first name, although you really only need the email. Some simple graphics can help spice up your page a lot, too.

Here's mine as an example (still a work in progress): http://eepurl.com/G8yzr


----------



## 41413

The only field I personally include in my signup is email address. I agree that you're likely to get more signups if you make it as easy as humanly possible.


----------



## Ardin

I love this system.
I've been diligently collecting addresses for the last month and a half. Reached 45 sign ups. 
Sent out an email for my new release last night.
Today, 16 sales of my new book. That's my best ever launch!


----------



## hardnutt

Thanks Kat and SMR. I'll have another go!
Geraldine


----------



## Craig Andrews

I'm getting ready to release my first book at the end of the month and followed the advice of this thread. It took a little while to figure out how to use the site to make the form look the way I wanted it to, but I eventually got it (took a couple hours). For those who are like me and like visual examples, here's what my mailing list sign up form looks like: http://eepurl.com/IEjIr

I used a hyperlink in the front and backmatter of my book that simply said: "Click here to sign up for the Craig Andrew's Mailing List."


----------



## 41413

Craig Andrews said:


> I'm getting ready to release my first book at the end of the month and followed the advice of this thread. It took a little while to figure out how to use the site to make the form look the way I wanted it to, but I eventually got it (took a couple hours). For those who are like me and like visual examples, here's what my mailing list sign up form looks like: http://eepurl.com/IEjIr
> 
> I used a hyperlink in the front and backmatter of my book that simply said: "Click here to sign up for the Craig Andrew's Mailing List."


Looks good! I might remove the first and last name fields to make enrollment easier.

Also, the most effective verbiage for the mailing list seems to be "new release email alerts." My friends and I have played with some other options, but that's the one that appears to communicate the intention best to reader, and gets the most clicks. Although it might vary by genre, who knows? It's worth playing with.



Ardin said:


> I love this system.
> I've been diligently collecting addresses for the last month and a half. Reached 45 sign ups.
> Sent out an email for my new release last night.
> Today, 16 sales of my new book. That's my best ever launch!


This is great to hear. I've been having fun watching your success posts.


----------



## James Bruno

I also struggle with MailChimp, even after they improved the site. So, a digitally-challenged simpleton's question: How does one actually embed a MailChimp list link in a) one's ebook; and b) social media sites like FB, etc? I find MailChimp's Help feature to be less than helpful.


----------



## Patty Jansen

I've had a signup list for a few months. Not many signups.

I sent a newsletter yesterday and all day I've had people subscribing and unsubscribing. Really weird. I think there's a new form of spamminess on the horizon. Like those daft people who favourite random tweets from months back.


----------



## hardnutt

James,

You simply type the link, then select Insert>Hyperlink. That's all I've done and it seems to work fine.


----------



## hardnutt

Well, all, I've had another go at my sign-up form. It's a bit fancier now. I found the banner on an ancient freebie greetings card, posters and banners disc, edited it in Gimp to change the colours and add text and here it is:

http://eepurl.com/AKjSj

Very advanced for me!

I think it's an improvement on the original, though I really wanted to insert a couple of book covers, too, but that defeated me. :-( There doesn't seem to be any 'Insert > Image' choice on Gimp or at least none that I've been able to find. And although I got my images in the project as layers, each time I tried to get them on to the banner, the banner moved skywards! Any advice gratefully received.
Geraldine


----------



## Ryan Sullivan

I'm going to go in now and change my mailing list to ask for just the email address. We don't actually use their names in the newsletters, do we? It's more to know who we got to sign up, but not really necessary, I guess.


----------



## Jan Thompson

Ryan Sullivan said:


> I'm going to go in now and change my mailing list to ask for just the email address. We don't actually use their names in the newsletters, do we? It's more to know who we got to sign up, but not really necessary, I guess.


Well, when my favorite authors send me emails, it's nice of them to say "Dear Jan" when addressing me. I think it's OK to ask for first and last name to go with the email address, don't you?


----------



## Deke

Fustrating advice.  It's like advice on how to become a millionaire: step one) Inherit a million dollars...

In this new book-saturated world, it's hard to build a mailing list unless you already have an established audience.


----------



## Ryan Sullivan

JanThompson said:


> Well, when my favorite authors send me emails, it's nice of them to say "Dear Jan" when addressing me. I think it's OK to ask for first and last name to go with the email address, don't you?


I suppose so. Mine are optional.

So I've gone in and changed the background colour, the placement of the text, and changed the subheading to just mention new books instead of upcoming releases.

http://eepurl.com/z7JTn

I don't think I need to get too fancy.


----------



## 41413

Deke said:


> Fustrating advice. It's like advice on how to become a millionaire: step one) Inherit a million dollars...
> 
> In this new book-saturated world, it's hard to build a mailing list unless you already have an established audience.


I understand your frustration (and the frustrations expressed by others in this thread; I just picked out yours because it's the most recent). It's kind of an unfair evaluation, though. I also started from zero. I had absolutely no established audience when I started. It's been about 2.5 years and more than 25 title releases to get where I am now. I made up for what I lacked in audience by volume of publication, in multiple series, with very frequent releases.

It may be frustrating to see my results out of context. You might think, "Her mailing list size and launches are impossible for someone like me. You have to have an existing audience for this to work." Unfortunately, that's ignoring the 2.5 years that led to where I am now.

My first campaign on Mail Chimp went out to 25 subscribers, which had been slowly, painfully gathered over the six months prior. Half of them were related to me, and half came from my limping book sales of 10-20/month. The second announcement went to 36 people, and the third to 56. About a year after that first mailing of 25, I had 400 subscribers. I exceeded Mail Chimp's free subscriber limit of 2000 eight months after that. I now have 5000+ readers on my list, and most of them aren't even related to me.

But it took 25 releases (15 or so of which are new, full-length novels) to get here.

As I said in a later update, Select free and permafree helped my rate of growth immensely, and also didn't require an existing audience. I think that where I am now can be attributed 50% to frequent releases with mailing list launches, and 50% to vigorous abuse of freebies. I'll edit the OP to link to my later addendum. Hopefully that will seem less daunting.

Again, as I've said before, this is not the only way of doing things. It works best for people who write ongoing series. It works even better if that series is released frequently. If "frequent series releases" doesn't jive with your career plan, you'll probably need another tactic. Which is okay! There are many roads to success and many meters of success and you don't have to do things my way. There are quite a few threads on other awesome sales methods that have been on KB. If this isn't useful to you, I hope you find something that is more helpful.

It does make my heart ache a little bit when people seem to be angry or frustrated at me for sharing this, like I'm shilling useless advice or a special magical butterfly, or that you can't do this unless you've already got a following or write such-and-such genre/book/whatever. I came from zero, just like you. The only difference between us is time.


----------



## WG McCabe

If people seem angry or upset, that's on them not you. Ignore it. 

I don't want you to vanish again. I missed your posts when you weren't around and am THRILLED that you are active again.


----------



## 41413

I'm not threatening to disappear.  Just moping around, being thin skinned, stuffing my face with ice cream and peanut butter, getting drunk. The usual.


----------



## WG McCabe

OK, good, crisis averted. Because if you took another hiatus I would be very put out. *15 points if you know where I stole that last bit*


----------



## 60911

smreine said:


> It does make my heart ache a little bit when people seem to be angry or frustrated at me for sharing this, like I'm shilling useless advice or a special magical butterfly, or that you can't do this unless you've already got a following or write such-and-such genre/book/whatever. I came from zero, just like you. *The only difference between us is time.*


And vodka. And miles at a treaddesk. Annnnnnd...



Patrick Szabo said:


> OK, good, crisis averted. Because if you took another hiatus I would be very put out. *15 points if you know where I stole that last bit*


I'm gonna guess Princess Bride.


----------



## 68564

smreine said:


> I'm shilling ... a special magical butterfly


Wait. I want to hear more about this! Where can I get one? What do they do? Do they taste good dipped in chocolate?


----------



## 41413

VydorScope said:


> Wait. I want to hear more about this! Where can I get one? What do they do? Do they taste good dipped in chocolate?


Skyrim tells me that ripping the wings off of butterflies will allow me to fortify my barter skill, so I'm pretty sure chocolate can only help with that.


----------



## 41413

RobertJCrane said:


> And vodka. And miles at a treaddesk. Annnnnnd...


Who said that you were allowed to leave my dungeon? Get back in there. BACK.


----------



## 60911

smreine said:


> Who said that you were allowed to leave my dungeon? Get back in there. BACK.


ACK! She's got the hose again!


----------



## WG McCabe

RobertJCrane said:


> And vodka. And miles at a treaddesk. Annnnnnd...
> 
> I'm gonna guess Princess Bride.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner. And stuff.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

Your advice is both sound and wise S.M. 

It's basically the blueprint that every writer who makes decent money self-pubbing follows. If other people have any issues - well those are their issues, not yours. 

Remember, you are doing well by following your own advice. 

Continued blessings!


----------



## Edward W. Robertson

As an avid Sara-stalker, I think that, in addition to what she's laid out here, there have been three main elements of her explosion.

The first is the given in all threads like this: she wrote books people connected to and couldn't wait for more of.

The second is that she's prolific. Not everyone can write as fast as her. I can't. But she and others like her have helped me learn that even if I can't keep up with them, I can do much more than I thought I was capable of.

Third, she was hilariously aggressive about getting people to take a chance on her work. Running freebies and/or discounts across her entire series many people wouldn't ever consider. We talk a lot about valuing your work, but I think there's a lot to be said for having the confidence that, if you can coax people into taking a shot on your books--by any means necessary--a lot of those people will turn into long-term fans. People who will be eager to pay full price when the next installment of your series is out.

Given all this, her particular _level_ of success is going to be hard for anyone to duplicate, because it's astonishing. But the steps she followed to get there are ones that anyone can follow. In other words, it may be hard for us mortals to match her rate of growth--but this is a really excellent guide to building some level of growth from one book to the next.


----------



## 41413

Edward W. Robertson said:


> As an avid Sara-stalker...


_Helloooo._

Anyway, this thread isn't really meant to be a memoir of Sara's career. I do have a lot of other thoughts about what has personally helped improve my sales, but those thoughts are a lot more specific to my situation and wouldn't be as helpful in a general way. When I originally started this thread in the Dark Ages, I just wanted to share a tip that seemed like such an easy and cool way to grow sales that I hadn't heard discussed publicly. "Build a mailing list!" isn't nearly as obscure now, of course. David Gaughran covered it better than I did in Let's Get Visible.

I would be happy to ramble about my specific scenario some other time, maybe in another thread, when I'm feeling less lazy.


----------



## Patty Jansen

I don't think you need to write really fast to make it work. You just need to keep releasing new material until you have a decent backlist.

Time is an important ingredient.


----------



## heidi_g

Great thread! Thanks Sara, and everyone who's contributed. I'm in the middle of e-mail list learning. So I have a mail chimp list, but when I tested the embedded links from my Kindle Fire and my Kindle paperwhite, it worked fine from my Fire, but not from my Paperwhite. Has anyone had a problem with this, i.e. the Paperwhite takes you to the sign up page but you can't actually enter you're info.

Also, will more people really subscribe if you don't sake for first and/or first and last name? Thanks!


----------



## 41413

Patty Jansen said:


> I don't think you need to write really fast to make it work. You just need to keep releasing new material until you have a decent backlist.


Wholeheartedly agreed. Writing faster might make the growth go...uh...well, faster, for lack of a better word, but you can see improvement at any rate.



heidi_g said:


> Great thread! Thanks Sara, and everyone who's contributed. I'm in the middle of e-mail list learning. So I have a mail chimp list, but when I tested the embedded links from my Kindle Fire and my Kindle paperwhite, it worked fine from my Fire, but not from my Paperwhite. Has anyone had a problem with this, i.e. the Paperwhite takes you to the sign up page but you can't actually enter you're info.
> 
> Also, will more people really subscribe if you don't sake for first and/or first and last name? Thanks!


I never could get my signup forms to work on the Paperwhite or any of the other dedicated Kindle devices. Readers really have to go onto their computers or phones to sign up for mailing lists, unfortunately. That said, a huge portion of my traffic is mobile - maybe people using Kindle apps on their Androids and iPhones that click through to my website? So it's important to make sure your website (and signup form) are usable on cell phones and tablets.

I've found that removing as many steps toward enrolling as possible makes for more signups. Simple is better! Fewest clicks, fewest fields to fill out, fewest buttons to push.

_edited for clarity_


----------



## heidi_g

smreine said:


> I never could get my signup forms to work on the Paperwhite or any of the other dedicated Kindle devices. They really have to go on their computers or phones. Actually, a huge portion of my traffic is mobile - maybe people using Kindle apps on their Androids and iPhones? So it's important to make sure your website (and signup form) are usable on cell phones and tablets.


so&#8230; i have an embedded "sign up" here that takes them to the page, then i have or email me at "my email address" I wonder if I should have "the url of the sign up page" maybe that's what you said is in your books? &#8230; I went back to look at your first few posts, so yes, it looks like you have that url? haha that's the one thing I don't have!!! fist to forehead



smreine said:


> I've found that removing as many steps toward enrolling as possible makes for more signups. Simple is better! Fewest clicks, fewest fields to fill out, fewest buttons to push.


Gotcha!

Thanks again, Sara! I'm kind of right here now with the email list thing, so this was a hugely helpful resource!


----------



## dalya

Aw, poo. There's always going to be something for people to throw shade over.

- Authors who write quickly (how dare they!)
- Authors who write in a more popular/trendy genre
- Self-editors 
- Everyone else who got approved for coveted advertisements
- Authors with big, juicy mailing lists
- Authors who have a spouse who either pays the bills or acts as a personal assistant/social media guru


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Mimi said:


> Aw, poo. There's always going to be something for people to throw shade over.
> 
> - Authors who write quickly (how dare they!)
> - Authors who write in a more popular/trendy genre
> - Self-editors
> - Everyone else who got approved for coveted advertisements
> - Authors with big, juicy mailing lists
> - Authors who have a spouse who either pays the bills or acts as a personal assistant/social media guru


You don't undestand. ANY achievement can and _will_ be poo-pooed. 
It's a mark of success, anyway. So roll in the poo-poo and be happy and go on doing what you're doing---because if it's poo-poo-worthy, it means you're doing something right!


----------



## Patty Jansen

smreine said:


> Wholeheartedly agreed. Writing faster might make the growth go...uh...well, faster, for lack of a better word, but you can see improvement at any rate.


Or have a ready backlist from previous years of being involved/trying to sell things with various degrees of success to tradepub


----------



## Aya Ling

Sara, I just wanted to jump in and say that your advice has been truly helpful, even though I don't publish frequently and have only 7 people on my mailing list. I released my first book in January, and the second one in October. When I sent out my newsletter in October, I got six sales in one day--which has NEVER happened to me before! I don't think I've had multiple sales in one day, unless I include my flashcard series (which only sell about five a month) or across different venues.

I've tried Select, giveaways, book blogs, even perma-free, and so far nothing has worked better than the mailing list. So I'm very happy that I did the mailing list thing in the beginning, and it's all thanks to your post!


----------



## sarahdalton

smreine said:


> Skyrim tells me that ripping the wings off of butterflies will allow me to fortify my barter skill, so I'm pretty sure chocolate can only help with that.


And health, don't forget the health.

I remember when I first started playing Skyrim and thought it was so cool you could wander around meadows picking flowers and catching butterflies like some grass-roots hippie. Then I realised I was actually ripping up the butterflies and eating them. And then I became the leader of the Dark Brotherhood and embraced the Night Mother so got over it.

I need to read this thread from beginning to end because I am PANTS at building a mailing list. After a year of being in self-publishing I still only have thirty people signed on, and one of those is my other half. Sob. So thank you for sharing your knowledge because there are so many of us who really need it!


----------



## Guest

Building your sales is like a typical game of Dwarf Fortress: you start off with nothing but peasants and useless fish dissectors, so you enable the skills you need (mason, carpenter, engraver, gem cutter, furnace operator, weaponsmith, armorsmith, etc) and even though it takes FOREVER for them to get any good, before you know it the engravers have smoothed and engraved your entire fortress, the carpenters are churning out menacing spikes by the dozen, the furnace operators have filled your entire stockpile with way too much coke, and the masons ... well, the masons are kind of dumb, and need you to babysit them so they don't always stand on the square where they're trying to build or wall themselves off somewhere, but still, they've all got up to legendary +5 like the others.

And then, just like Dwarf Fortress, something INSANE happens that destroys everything you've worked for.  Half your dwarves are dead, the other half are throwing tantrums and murdering each other, the miasma clouds have choked off all your beautiful rooms and passageways, and goblin thieves are gradually running off with all of your hard-earned wealth.

Okay, time to stop playing Dwarf Fortress and get back to writing.


----------



## 41413

Aya Ling said:


> Sara, I just wanted to jump in and say that your advice has been truly helpful, even though I don't publish frequently and have only 7 people on my mailing list. I released my first book in January, and the second one in October. When I sent out my newsletter in October, I got six sales in one day--which has NEVER happened to me before! I don't think I've had multiple sales in one day, unless I include my flashcard series (which only sell about five a month) or across different venues.
> 
> I've tried Select, giveaways, book blogs, even perma-free, and so far nothing has worked better than the mailing list. So I'm very happy that I did the mailing list thing in the beginning, and it's all thanks to your post!


Whoa, that's great! Heck of a conversion right there. I'm so glad it's helped. 



sarahdalton said:


> I remember when I first started playing Skyrim and thought it was so cool you could wander around meadows picking flowers and catching butterflies like some grass-roots hippie. Then I realised I was actually ripping up the butterflies and eating them. And then I became the leader of the Dark Brotherhood and embraced the Night Mother so got over it.


It amazing how much you can get over once you embrace the Night Mother.

One of my toddler's favorite activities in Skyrim (he sits on my lap when I play because he likes to "kill skeletons") is picking flowers and catching butterflies. I have to walk up to them and let him press the key on my keyboard to collect them. He probably doesn't realize it rips the 3D wings off the 3D butterflies, but I'm not sure he'd care if he did. Future member of the Dark Brotherhood?



Joe Vasicek said:


> Building your sales is like a typical game of Dwarf Fortress...


I've avoided tantrum spiral so far, but FPS lag is going nuts.


----------



## WordSaladTongs

Deke said:


> Fustrating advice. It's like advice on how to become a millionaire: step one) Inherit a million dollars...
> 
> In this new book-saturated world, it's hard to build a mailing list unless you already have an established audience.


It's actually not like that at all. You're building a list--not importing one. I remember when SM had one book out--it was at the same time I had one book out. She and I used to talk occasionally on Twitter and I watched as she engaged with her audience and pushed herself mercilessly to put out solid release after solid release in a way that I ... well, I'm not sure if I _couldn't_, or I just didn't have the drive she did. I strongly suspect it's the latter. Either way, I watched as she built her readership up person by person. At some point she reached a special tipping point that few of us will hit and her growth shot up exponentially--but it didn't happen because she inherited anything. She worked her furry tail off and went from 30-50 sales a month to tens of thousands--just like anyone can. *But not everyone will.* We aren't all going to have the same results even by following the same methods. So if you're frustrated by building your mailing list one reader at a time, the same way she did, it could be helpful to focus on something you can control--like writing and publishing the next book, creating a marketing plan, buying some ad space, building relationships with potential readers, looking for places where potential readers are hiding, etc.


----------



## MeiLinMiranda

Anyone who thinks Sara came up the easy way can pound sand. We were here and we watched (her make) it happen.


----------



## mariehallwrites

SM is my  hero and I can totally vouch that this method works well. I'm an absolute nobody but sales do improve because of my mailing list. Ads and blog tours and all those other things just give me headaches, but the newsletter hasn't let me down yet.


----------



## Carol (was Dara)

Just outing myself as another Sara stalker. When this thread was originally started it lit a fire under me to increase my series output and work harder at building my mailing list. I'm too slow to match Sara's production rate but increasing my speed as much as I have has made an incredible difference for me over the past year. I look back at where I was before this thread and am amazed at how a simple bit of advice pushed me to a whole new level in my writing career. Thanks Sara!


----------



## 41413

You guys, I can't even.


----------



## Lydniz

Hi, somebody said this is the thread to learn how to stalk people. Sign me up, please.

Anyway, I sent out my last newsletter to nine (9) people, in early September. I'll be sending out the next one in a week or two, and it will go out to 48 people. I reckon this could be a good thing if it keeps up.


----------



## valeriec80

Sara is the super coolest, fo sho.


----------



## dalya

If Sara emails you or sends you a PM, your sales immediately increase and the words flow more freely from your fingers. Your skin clears up and you stop swearing at the weather.


----------



## 68564

Mimi said:


> If Sara emails you or sends you a PM, your sales immediately increase and the words flow more freely from your fingers. Your skin clears up and you stop swearing at the weather.


Sweeeeeeeeet! Sign me up!  Do I get to eat the chocolate covered butterfly wings too?


----------



## Ardin

This is a great thread. Not only does it remind us of the importance of the mailing list, but also of the importance of periodically changing our kboards photo.


----------



## 41413

Ardin said:


> This is a great thread. Not only does it remind us of the importance of the mailing list, but also of the importance of periodically changing our kboards photo.


And now you will "hear" every one of my comments in Martha Stewart's voice.


----------



## donnajherren

SMR said:


> It amazing how much you can get over once you embrace the Night Mother.


My husband laughs every time I'm playing Skyrim and run across a questline or task that I find abhorrent. I'm all, "They want me to WHAT?" LOL


----------



## 41413

donnajherren said:


> My husband laughs every time I'm playing Skyrim and run across a questline or task that I find abhorrent. I'm all, "They want me to WHAT?" LOL


I bet you follow traffic laws in GTA, too.


----------



## donnajherren

SMR said:


> I bet you follow traffic laws in GTA, too.


Don't judge me, man. LOL


----------



## WG McCabe

Mimi said:


> If Sara emails you or sends you a PM, your sales immediately increase and the words flow more freely from your fingers. Your skin clears up and you stop swearing at the weather.


Stop swearing at the weather


----------



## sarahdalton

Okay, so I have to admit I've not read all the way through the thread, so sorry if this has already been asked. 

I'm planning a giveaway for black Friday and was hoping to tie mailchimp into rafflecopter so that entrants need to join the mailing list to win the book. But, rafflecopter only has this option for premium members which is a wopping $59 a month!!

Has anyone figured out a way around it? Can you add a link to the mailing list underneath or something? That seems like a lot of money!


----------



## 41413

sarahdalton said:


> Okay, so I have to admit I've not read all the way through the thread, so sorry if this has already been asked.
> 
> I'm planning a giveaway for black Friday and was hoping to tie mailchimp into rafflecopter so that entrants need to join the mailing list to win the book. But, rafflecopter only has this option for premium members which is a wopping $59 a month!!
> 
> Has anyone figured out a way around it? Can you add a link to the mailing list underneath or something? That seems like a lot of money!


I haven't used Rafflecopter in a million years (well before it rolled out all these new fancy features), but I used to include a "sign up for my mailing list" requirement and then just had readers input the email that they used to signup so I could check. I imagine you can probably still do that. You'll have to validate the entries yourself rather than letting Rafflecopter do it automatically, though.


----------



## Donna White Glaser

Mimi said:


> If Sara emails you or sends you a PM, your sales immediately increase and the words flow more freely from your fingers. Your skin clears up and you stop swearing at the weather.


Love me, Sara! Love meeeeeeeee!


----------



## sarahdalton

SMR said:


> I haven't used Rafflecopter in a million years (well before it rolled out all these new fancy features), but I used to include a "sign up for my mailing list" requirement and then just had readers input the email that they used to signup so I could check. I imagine you can probably still do that. You'll have to validate the entries yourself rather than letting Rafflecopter do it automatically, though.


Yeah, I think I did something similar.

There's a 'create your own' option so I clicked into that and titled it 'join the mailing list' then included instructions and a link in the message. I'll have to moderate the entrants to make sure people do one of the three components I've set but fingers crossed it should generate a few more sign ups!


----------



## tensen

Patrick Szabo said:


> Stop swearing at the weather


It is too [email protected]$n nice out!!!


----------



## tensen

sarahdalton said:


> There's a 'create your own' option so I clicked into that and titled it 'join the mailing list' then included instructions and a link in the message.


Good to know that exists, I may be looking into that soon.


----------



## Philip Gibson

Such an intriguing thread regarding marketing using mailing lists.

One question: How do readers sign up for the newsletters if they can't do it from their Kindle devices?

It would seem that if they have to leave their Kindles, and go to a PC, not many would take the time and trouble.


----------



## Philip Gibson

Philip Gibson said:


> Such an intriguing thread regarding marketing using mailing lists.
> 
> One question: How do readers sign up for the newsletters if they can't do it from their Kindle devices?
> 
> It would seem that if they have to leave their Kindles, and go to a PC, not many would take the time and trouble.


Bumped.

Hoping for some detail on what readers actually have to do to sign up to the mailing list. The following seems not very user-friendly. Thanks for any input on this, and for the fascinating thread.



> _I never could get my signup forms to work on the Paperwhite or any of the other dedicated Kindle devices. Readers really have to go onto their computers or phones to sign up for mailing lists, unfortunately. _


If that is the case, shouldn't some kind of instruction to that effect be part of the blurb at the back of the book inviting readers to sign up? Otherwise, would they not expect to be able to do it from their e-reader?


----------



## 68564

On the Kindle Fire, Fire HD, Fire HDX, iPad, Android Tablets, Nook Color, and so on... all the non-eink readers, a simple url to the simple MailChimp sign up page works fine. That is what I have. E-Ink folk would have to either visit my web site from a PC, or type in the URL (I use a url shortener) into a browser on a computer. The form will work on many e-ink machines, its extremely simple and just needs a way of entering text which most e-ink readers have.  So really it is probably only a small subset that can not use it.


----------



## Nicholas Andrews

SMR said:


> It amazing how much you can get over once you embrace the Night Mother.


I had a bi-polar relationship with the Dark Brotherhood. I was asked to join right after I killed an assassin they sent after me. It was like "Never mind that contract we have out on you, pick one of these random people to kill and join up!" I bet whoever had paid for my head was pissed.


----------



## WordSaladTongs

NicholasAndrews said:


> I had a bi-polar relationship with the Dark Brotherhood. I was asked to join right after I killed an assassin they sent after me. It was like "Never mind that contract we have out on you, pick one of these random people to kill and join up!" I bet whoever had paid for my head was p*ssed.


*sigh* I can't even bring the Dwarven Spider follower I picked up on Solstheim into combat with me because it's too cute. I'll never be in the Dark Brotherhood.

So glad SM started this awesome thread on the correlation between hours spent playing Skyrim and book sales.


----------



## donnajherren

WordSaladTongs said:


> So glad SM started this awesome thread on the correlation between hours spent playing Skyrim and book sales.


There's a correlation? Awesome! I'm in the money now!

I'm off to find a GIF of Tom Hiddleston dancing! His inappropriate hip gyrations would fit this moment perfectly!


----------



## NicWilson

Just gotta highlight the "in a series, or in the same genre" part of this. I've got five novels out now, but I've had comparatively little visibility because they're each in different genres(One's space opera, one's soft sci fi, one's urban fantasy, one's polemic dystopia, and the other is a racy suspense). Two are the first in a series, but I didn't write the second book right away, and that's the first thing on my plan for next year. Even when I've done promos, I rarely see readers migrate away from the book on promo into the others.

Mind you, I wrote what I wanted to write, and I don't think I'd do it any different today, aside from maybe waiting to publish until the sequels were at the top of my revision list. Just had to say that that may be the most crucial piece of advice here. Give yourself a little niche to outgrow with your readers, instead of spreading your works like dandelion seeds.


----------



## Ryan Sullivan

I have the same thing I think, except mine are fantasy. My books aren't sequential and don't have the same main characters from book to book. But I wonder if they should be numbered anyway. I just feel like that destroys the whole concept of being able to read them in any order, and if people see Book 2, they're likely to expect the same characters.

Eh, I still don't think mine would work as a numbered series.


----------



## sarahdalton

WordSaladTongs said:


> *sigh* I can't even bring the Dwarven Spider follower I picked up on Solstheim into combat with me because it's too cute. I'll never be in the Dark Brotherhood.
> 
> So glad SM started this awesome thread on the correlation between hours spent playing Skyrim and book sales.


You have a Dwarven Spider follower? That's so cool! Is this one of those things I can't do because I play the Xbox game? Like spawning and finding lost weapons? I so need the PC version in my life.

We should totally start a Kboards Skyrim thread somewhere.


----------



## WordSaladTongs

sarahdalton said:


> You have a Dwarven Spider follower? That's so cool! Is this one of those things I can't do because I play the Xbox game? Like spawning and finding lost weapons? I so need the PC version in my life.
> 
> We should totally start a Kboards Skyrim thread somewhere.


What up 360 buddy! We don't need no stinkin' game modifications! When you do the Dragonborn DLC and go to Solthelsteim (sp) you can get a Darven spider follower in ... crap--on of the ruins that starts with a K...


----------



## 13893

sarahdalton said:


> I'm planning a giveaway for black Friday and was hoping to tie mailchimp into rafflecopter so that entrants need to join the mailing list to win the book. But, rafflecopter only has this option for premium members which is a wopping $59 a month!!


I strongly recommend not doing this. Before I knew what I was doing, I had hundreds of people join my mailing lists through contests and promotions. That way lies despair.

If they join your mailing list for any reason other than wanting to get notice of your new books, it weakens your list. It was fun seeing the numbers grow - but that was the only fun in it. I don't want a list of people who hope to win loot. I want a list of people who can't wait for the next LK Rigel book.


----------



## dalya

LKRigel said:


> I strongly recommend not doing this. Before I knew what I was doing, I had hundreds of people join my mailing lists through contests and promotions. That way lies despair.
> 
> If they join your mailing list for any reason other than wanting to get notice of your new books, it weakens your list. It was fun seeing the numbers grow - but that was the only fun in it. I don't want a list of people who hope to win loot. I want a list of people who can't wait for the next LK Rigel book.


I used to think that, too. But I've changed my view. Even if it costs me an extra $10/month on my Mailchimp account, it's better to have those emails. If only 3 of them buy a book a month, that covers the extra cost of the extra mailouts.

Of course I'd love for everyone on the list to be a super fan, and have a 100% open rate, but I will take those 3 sales. 

I am all about the mailing list. I actually check my mailing list more frequently than my KDP reports. Sales are here today, gone tomorrow. Your list is your future.


----------



## 13893

That's interesting MimiDayla.

I'd go with MimiDayla's advice over mine any day.

EDITED TO ADD: But I do love it when I get notice of a random, unaccounted-for sign-up.


----------



## sarahdalton

I hear ya. But even after the giveaway going for a couple if days I've only had ten extra sign ups so I don't think it's going to be a problem. I seem to get all right sales but a lack of social media/mailing list interaction and I'm hoping this giveaway might boost things a bit.


----------



## 41413

Mimi said:


> I used to think that, too. But I've changed my view. Even if it costs me an extra $10/month on my Mailchimp account, it's better to have those emails. If only 3 of them buy a book a month, that covers the extra cost of the extra mailouts.
> 
> Of course I'd love for everyone on the list to be a super fan, and have a 100% open rate, but I will take those 3 sales.
> 
> I am all about the mailing list. I actually check my mailing list more frequently than my KDP reports. Sales are here today, gone tomorrow. Your list is your future.


I think this works best if you do discounted releases and advertise that to your mailing list. I also think this works better in romance where readers are more loyal to subgenre (like a specific type of regency romance or whatever) than a series or character, and more likely to gobble up anything that fits their "type." That said, I reeeaaally don't get out of my genre or experiment much, so I'm really talking out my extremely shapely and drool-worthy posterior.

By which I mean, I really have no useful opinion about this.

Anydiddly, if you're most interested in list size, there are cheaper ways to do mass mailings than MailChimp (as I've mentioned elsewhere in the thread). A desktop mass mailing client and a third-party SMTP service is dirt cheap and will let you horde many emails in your cheek pouches as you can gather.


----------



## heidi_g

I spent three nights this week updating all the mailing list info in all my books. It was kind of a nightmare. I don't ever want to do that again But, I do feel better as the information is presented in a more simple matter, and we've changed the form to only request the email address. I'm torn between enticing people to join the email list and not. We just finished a giveaway that did, but not sure I will do that again… dither dither dither. I started my email list in March. I had the best first day release with my last release (unfortunately that's almost all that I can say was the best about this last release)…

Anyway, thanks to SMR for starting this thread, and for all the tips herein.


----------



## Wansit

Thanks for the amazing advice SM. I started focusing on my mailing list about two months ago. I went from 60 emails to 300 by the start of December. 

Today is the second day of my new release and I've sold 100 copies of that book. Never had that happen before.  I'm a convert.


----------



## Ardin

Wansit said:


> Today is the second day of my new release and I've sold 100 copies of that book.


Nice going Wansit. That's an amazing result.


----------



## 41413

Wansit said:


> Thanks for the amazing advice SM. I started focusing on my mailing list about two months ago. I went from 60 emails to 300 by the start of December.
> 
> Today is the second day of my new release and I've sold 100 copies of that book. Never had that happen before.  I'm a convert.


Wow, that is insane progress! Great job!!


----------



## Wansit

Thanks Ardin, SMR!


----------



## EG Michaels

Wow, there's a lot of great advice in this thread.  Thank you so much for sharing your success stories -- it's helped lift my spirits a bit that all of the hours I'm spending slaving over a keyboard can pay off.

Take care,

E.G.


----------



## jdrew

EelKat said:


> After reading this thread I've decided to set up a mailing list. (Which I just did.) I'm not sure if I'll use it or not, but I figure, I'll never know if I don't at least try it and see if I like doing it or not, and at the very least it can't hurt to have one. At this moment I only plan to send out 1 monthly email announcing upcoming releases and any events I'll be at, and thus wrote the following "blurb":
> 
> I may reword that, but that's what I've got up for now. I've posted this blurb in the footer of my website, at the top of the "Books By" page of my website, and will be adding it to the "back matter" of my ebooks.


 EelKat, how did the mailing list go? I'm curious as I've thought about setting up one too but have not taken the time. Please, let us know how it worked out.


----------



## VEVO

Another HUGE THUMB UP for this thread from Robert Crane

http://robertjcrane.blogspot.com/2014/02/how-to-make-living-as-indie-author.html

_I had my plan, I had my basic strategy, and I started to make money in September 2012. I could have coasted, thinking I had my shit together. Instead, around October or November, I made an enormous change, one that felt like a pain in the ass to implement, but that has made enormous difference in my career.

I implemented a mailing list with links in the back of my books.

I didn't fully finish implementing this until February 2013 (and I kick myself for failing to do so) but HOLY CRAP does it make a different. If you're wondering what I'm talking about with a mailing list, go read *THIS POST on Kboards by my friend SM Reine*. I'll wait for you here until you get back. Make sure you read her follow-up posts as well, down the thread.

This single change is revolutionary. If you're waiting for your audience to come find you every time you release a book, you're basically throwing your baby into the waiting wolves of the Amazon algorithms. Want to make a bigger splash? Want to "game" the system? Get your damned fans to all buy your book at once. It'll make a bigger splash. If you have half a dozen cherry bombs and you light them one at a time, it's like launching a book with only social media to inform your audience. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop!

Get a mailing list together and send that puppy while you're informing your Facebook and Twitter, and it's like wrapping those cherry bombs into a stick of dynamite. It can help you push your new release up the genre list and garner you exposure for your entire series. "Oh, look, book #9 of this series looks interesting. I should go back and read book #1." Boom, you hooked a new reader. And best of all, once they sign up for your mailing list, they're added to the dynamite for future launches.

If you're going to go to the hard work of writing and releasing books for a living while you're trying to build an audience, don't be yutz by skipping the last steps to success. Find a way to make it easier for readers to hand you money. Make it simple for them to know you've got a new book out._


----------



## Wansit

Sometimes it's the small milestones which are the greatest. Two months ago my new release sold 100 copies in the first two days. Today, I'm happy to say that I sold 100 copies in the first day and added more people to my 500-strong mailing list. Can't thank you enough for the tips.


----------



## Marco Siena

Sorry for my bad english and excuse me for the question, SRM, I'm a newbie: how you encourage people to subscribe at your mailing list? In which way?

P.S. nice thread


----------



## Nathalie Aynie

Marco Siena said:


> Sorry for my bad english and excuse me for the question, SRM, I'm a newbie: how you encourage people to subscribe at your mailing list? In which way?
> 
> P.S. nice thread


BOOBIES!


----------



## Marco Siena

Nathalie Aynié said:


> BOOBIES!


Oooops!


----------



## jdrew

Wansit said:


> Sometimes it's the small milestones which are the greatest. Two months ago my new release sold 100 copies in the first two days. Today, I'm happy to say that I sold 100 copies in the first day and added more people to my 500-strong mailing list. Can't thank you enough for the tips.


That does it. I've got to get off my rear and get a mailing list set up. Now, let me see, where was that section again?


----------



## ConnerKressley

Thanks so much for the advice. As someone who's just starting out, it really helps to see someone who's found success through hard work.


----------



## LJ

ConnerKressley said:


> Thanks so much for the advice. As someone who's just starting out, it really helps to see someone who's found success through hard work.


I second this, SM! The advice really helps, and I am so happy for you and your success. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## JessicaWriter

Hi there,

So I'm a new historical romance author. I've been pre-promoting my book for about a month now and have a permafree for my mailing list. I have exactly 2 people on my mailing list. Tips on how to get people to sign up? I do have a link in the back of my soon-to-be-launched e-book (April 15!)
  The thing is, I feel like I'm doing all the right things; I am just confused as to why people have yet to sign up. I am on FB & Twitter & have the signup info there, too. 
  Do you SM Reine or anyone else have any suggestions? This'll be my first e-book.  Thanks very much!  

Jessica


----------



## LeeBee

If you don't have any books out yet, that's probably why. Most people won't sign up for an author's mailing list until they have read something by that author and know whether or not they're interested in the next releases.


----------



## Donna White Glaser

LeeBee said:


> If you don't have any books out yet, that's probably why. Most people won't sign up for an author's mailing list until they have read something by that author and know whether or not they're interested in the next releases.


This, exactly. Before people volunteer for more email clutter, they have to really want to hear about your news. They won't know that until they become a fan. Not just a reader, mind you. A FAN.


----------



## Twizzlers

I've got one book out and only two people on my mailing list. I guess I need to get a few more out before they become super interested and sign up.


----------



## Guest

JessicaWriter said:


> Hi there,
> 
> So I'm a new historical romance author. I've been pre-promoting my book for about a month now and have a permafree for my mailing list. I have exactly 2 people on my mailing list. Tips on how to get people to sign up? I do have a link in the back of my soon-to-be-launched e-book (April 15!)
> The thing is, I feel like I'm doing all the right things; I am just confused as to why people have yet to sign up. I am on FB & Twitter & have the signup info there, too.
> Do you SM Reine or anyone else have any suggestions? This'll be my first e-book. Thanks very much!
> 
> Jessica


Jessica, I have close to 90 people on my mailing list for my upcoming book BENTON. I'm happy I started my mailing list in January (or around there) instead of after the book comes out in June. PM me if you'd like.


----------



## Patty Jansen

There are all sorts of ways you can cajole people to be on your mailing list. Offer giveaways, rafflecopters, give away Kindles, etc.

However.

Big however.

These people won't be interested in your fiction. They'll just sign up to win. You want true readers on your list. This doesn't happen overnight. It happens in little dribs and drabs, and usually very little dribs and drabs. To get a list of 100 people is likely to take you months. Speeding it up artificially with giveaways may make you feel good, but is not likely to be effective. You'll just get a kick in the gut when you send out a mailing and a whole bunch of people unsubscribe.

There really is no shortcut except selling books. More sales = more signups. More free downloads = more signups.


----------



## Carina Wilder

I have links in all my books to a mailing list signup form with no extra incentive other than offers of notifications of future books and sales. The list I have are lovely, tend to open the emails (I try not to send more than one a month) and seem also to buy, which is always helpful. I'd say just persist but don't try to be too aggressive. 

Every person who signs up on my list makes me giddy; it's almost better than any review as far as I'm concerned, because it indicates a desire for more.


----------



## Guest

Patty Jansen said:


> There are all sorts of ways you can cajole people to be on your mailing list. Offer giveaways, rafflecopters, give away Kindles, etc.
> 
> However.
> 
> Big however.
> 
> These people won't be interested in your fiction. They'll just sign up to win. You want true readers on your list. This doesn't happen overnight. It happens in little dribs and drabs, and usually very little dribs and drabs. To get a list of 100 people is likely to take you months. Speeding it up artificially with giveaways may make you feel good, but is not likely to be effective. You'll just get a kick in the gut when you send out a mailing and a whole bunch of people unsubscribe.
> 
> There really is no shortcut except selling books. More sales = more signups. More free downloads = more signups.


Patty, I'm going to assume your passive/aggressive comment was directed at me.

~~~

Jessica, like I said, PM (or email) me if you'd like, and we can have a private conversation.

Jolie 

P.S. I'm off to pole dancing practice, but I checked my emails first. Guess who just got another sign-up?


----------



## dkgould

Joliedupre said:


> Patty, I'm going to assume your passive/aggressive comment was directed at me.


Probably not, Jolie. How to build a mailing list and what to do with it is a conversation that has happened many, many, many times here. I've read umpteen threads about it and I still am confused. I think Patty was genuinely trying to be helpful to someone new in offering her advice, not snarky toward anyone's methods. If what you're doing works, then awesome! but I've also seen lots of people waste a LOT of money and time on their first go around and be really angry and disappointed with the results, so someone not as adept at converting sign ups to fans (like myself) would benefit from a little caution too.


----------



## Patty Jansen

Joliedupre said:


> Patty, I'm going to assume your passive/aggressive comment was directed at me.
> 
> Jolie


What the actual eff?

What comment? You didn't even say how you got your mailing list

Please, first rule about internet groups: If you (general you) think it's about you, it never is.

Over and out ffs.


----------



## Christa Wick

I grew my mailing list pretty quickly by giving free "deleted" scenes and alternate POV scenes to those who subscribed. Then, after a certain amount of time, I added those extra scenes to the published version of the books, making them more attractive to buyers and the extra time writing them more remunerative. I would post on my blog, FB and twitter that I was getting ready to release the extra scenes to newsletter subscribers and would get a lot of subscribes in response (and announce when I had added them and pick up more). My twitter and blog feed into my Amazon author page, so that gave me a right side ad on my author page about free content for subscribers. I would also update the bio that appears on the author page. (Use all the editable space on your Amazon author page that Amazon gives you, people!!!)

P.S. I'm up to 2250 and launched in June 2013. Before that, I told people to email me their address if they wanted notified. Literally, less than a handful did over more than a year. So USE A MAIL LIST SERVICE OR PLUG-IN. None of that "send me your email address" BS.


----------



## Donna Alam

Christa Wick said:


> I grew my mailing list pretty quickly by giving free "deleted" scenes and alternate POV scenes to those who subscribed. Then, after a certain amount of time, I added those extra scenes to the published version of the books, making them more attractive to buyers and the extra time writing them more remunerative. I would post on my blog, FB and twitter that I was getting ready to release the extra scenes to newsletter subscribers and would get a lot of subscribes in response (and announce when I had added them and pick up more). My twitter and blog feed into my Amazon author page, so that gave me a right side ad on my author page about free content for subscribers. I would also update the bio that appears on the author page. (Use all the editable space on your Amazon author page that Amazon gives you, people!!!)


I'd been wondering if deleted scenes and alternate POV's would help but was unsure of the logistics of it all. Thanks for this. A huge help.


----------



## sarahdalton

I've been struggling to build up my mailing list for months and am finally starting to see some regular sign ups. FINALLY. Woohoo.

So, first of all, I think rafflecopter giveaways help. They are a good way of reaching people and a good way of getting people to interact with you. I've got about 300 or so more likes on my Facebook page over the last few months and I think most of those are down to rafflecopters and book releases. I only had a tiny handful of people unlike after the end of the giveaway. Plus I'm seeing people joining in with conversations. They liked the look of my books enough to want to win them, so why shouldn't they want to stick around? 

I guess it depends on what you giveaway. If it's a free ipad - chances are people don't care about your books. If it's some free books, free book related stuff and maybe an Amazon voucher or two, then you're probably going to get a lot of book bloggers and ebook readers enter the giveaway. 

The other thing that I've done this month is added the cover to my next (as of now unpublished) book in a series, with a link to my mailing list underneath it, saying something like 'be the first to get a copy of.... click the mailing list' in the back matter of the first book. 

I've been a seriously lucky (as many of you lovely Americans say) S.O.B this month. Amazon ran a week long advert for my Kindle Single on Kindle and I got the YA daily deal, which was followed by some really awesome reviews. That has totally helped the mailing list situation. I also really believe that they never would have picked up my novella if I hadn't written the book I wanted to write. So above all else, write the best book you can, and write it from the heart. It's good writing over everything else that helps build sales and social media.


----------



## Guest

dkgould said:


> Probably not, Jolie. How to build a mailing list and what to do with it is a conversation that has happened many, many, many times here. I've read umpteen threads about it and I still am confused. I think Patty was genuinely trying to be helpful to someone new in offering her advice, not snarky toward anyone's methods. If what you're doing works, then awesome! but I've also seen lots of people waste a LOT of money and time on their first go around and be really angry and disappointed with the results, so someone not as adept at converting sign ups to fans (like myself) would benefit from a little caution too.


I've been a published author and anthology editor since 2001. I began with literary erotica; I have short stories in over 15 anthologies; I'm the anthology editor of three anthologies with a fourth being published sometime this year, and I have a paranormal/erotica novella out. Those were all with traditional publishers.

So even though I'm self-publishing now, it's technically not my "first go around."

Some of the people on my list already know me from erotica. However, since I no longer write erotica and since I've had to find a new audience of monster and zombie lovers, many of the people on my mailing list are new.

I've never promoted as heavily as I'm promoting my debut self-published romance/zombie apocalypse/new adult novel. As I told a person who PM'd me after seeing this thread - I grow my list mainly with my Facebook activity, my Twitter activity and the activity on my blog with a focus on finding people who enjoy monsters (zombies, vampires, etc.)


----------



## Guest

sarahdalton said:


> So, first of all, I think rafflecopter giveaways help. They are a good way of reaching people and a good way of getting people to interact with you. I've got about 300 or so more likes on my Facebook page over the last few months and I think most of those are down to rafflecopters and book releases. I only had a tiny handful of people unlike after the end of the giveaway. Plus I'm seeing people joining in with conversations. They liked the look of my books enough to want to win them, so why shouldn't they want to stick around?


I did a few Rafflecopter giveaways in the beginning of my promoting BENTON. They were always zombie themed, and they were popular.

Now I regularly communicate on Facebook and Twitter with many of the people who entered my contests. They know my book comes out in June, and they're waiting for it.


----------



## Guest

sarahdalton said:


> I've been a seriously lucky (as many of you lovely Americans say) S.O.B this month. Amazon ran a week long advert for my Kindle Single on Kindle and I got the YA daily deal, which was followed by some really awesome reviews. That has totally helped the mailing list situation. I also really believe that they never would have picked up my novella if I hadn't written the book I wanted to write. So above all else, write the best book you can, and write it from the heart. It's good writing over everything else that helps build sales and social media.


It's wonderful to read this! Congratulations, Sarah!


----------



## Fictionista

JanneCO said:


> You offer something to them to get them to sign up.
> 
> DISCLAIMER - don't offer soemething cheap or stupid. Something of value.


Like what? I'm a newbie at this whole mailing list thing.


----------



## MatthewBallard

The sweetest words I see come through my gmail inbox:

Yippee! Your list has gained a new subscriber.

I've gained about 100 subscribers since I released my first book last December, and I'm in the final few chapters of the first draft of book two. I offer a sign up link at the end of the book with no other incentives or offers other than simply to be notified when I finish the next book.


----------



## dkgould

Joliedupre said:


> So even though I'm self-publishing now, it's technically not my "first go around."


I never said you were new at this. For lots of the people reading this thread, though, it is new, and opinions from all methods are important. I'm glad you are doing well. My point was that Patty's message was just a friendly bit of advice, not an attack on you (which she conf


Joliedupre said:


> I've been a published author and anthology editor since 2001. I began with literary erotica; I have short stories in over 15 anthologies; I'm the anthology editor of three anthologies with a fourth being published sometime this year, and I have a paranormal/erotica novella out. Those were all with traditional publishers.
> 
> So even though I'm self-publishing now, it's technically not my "first go around."
> 
> Some of the people on my list already know me from erotica. However, since I no longer write erotica and since I've had to find a new audience of monster and zombie lovers, many of the people on my mailing list are new.
> 
> I've never promoted as heavily as I'm promoting my debut self-published romance/zombie apocalypse/new adult novel. As I told a person who PM'd me after seeing this thread - I grow my list mainly with my Facebook activity, my Twitter activity and the activity on my blog with a focus on finding people who enjoy monsters (zombies, vampires, etc.)


You don't have to be defensive, I wasn't questioning you or saying that you were new at this. I was saying that lots of people reading this thread, including myself, ARE, and need advice from all sides. I'm glad what you are doing is working for you. No one is attacking you, including Patty.


----------



## sarahdalton

Joliedupre said:


> It's wonderful to read this! Congratulations, Sarah!


Thank you!

I've heard that writing a short story and offering that as a free incentive to sign the mailing list is a good idea. I've been meaning to sort something like that out. I think Mailchimp lets you organise an auto-response, maybe it could include an attachment, or at least a way to contact you for the story.


----------



## AssanaBanana

JessicaWriter said:


> Hi there,
> 
> So I'm a new historical romance author. I've been pre-promoting my book for about a month now and have a permafree for my mailing list. I have exactly 2 people on my mailing list. Tips on how to get people to sign up? I do have a link in the back of my soon-to-be-launched e-book (April 15!)
> The thing is, I feel like I'm doing all the right things; I am just confused as to why people have yet to sign up. I am on FB & Twitter & have the signup info there, too.
> Do you SM Reine or anyone else have any suggestions? This'll be my first e-book. Thanks very much!
> 
> Jessica


I'm pretty new at the mailing list thing, too. When I published book 1 in my series I hadn't even set up a mailing list yet. It wasn't until someone in another online forum I'm a member of expressed the desire to buy it but lacked the funds. So I set up a Smashwords coupon to give it away for free, contingent on this person signing up on my mailing list (signing up generates an autoresponse that contains the SW coupon code). Now that book 1 is permafree, I have a different coupon that offers book 2 at half-price if you sign up. I only got the one subscriber at first. It wasn't until I'd published the second book that more started trickling in, and even more with the third book. One thing I've done is to make sure I have links to my mailing list subscription form in the front and back matter of my books. Give them as many opportunities to click on it as possible. It's been two months and I only have 25 subscribers (two of them are me), but they still steadily trickle in every couple days. So I believe the key is to publish something!


----------



## coolpixel

Joliedupre said:


> I've been a published author and anthology editor since 2001. I began with literary erotica; I have short stories in over 15 anthologies; I'm the anthology editor of three anthologies with a fourth being published sometime this year, and I have a paranormal/erotica novella out. Those were all with traditional publishers.
> 
> So even though I'm self-publishing now, it's technically not my "first go around."
> 
> Some of the people on my list already know me from erotica. However, since I no longer write erotica and since I've had to find a new audience of monster and zombie lovers, many of the people on my mailing list are new.
> 
> I've never promoted as heavily as I'm promoting my debut self-published romance/zombie apocalypse/new adult novel. As I told a person who PM'd me after seeing this thread - I grow my list mainly with my Facebook activity, my Twitter activity and the activity on my blog with a focus on finding people who enjoy monsters (zombies, vampires, etc.)


Jolie do you find it easier to get Twitter followers and interactees to sign up to the mailing list?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Guest

coolpixel said:


> Jolie do you find it easier to get Twitter followers and interactees to sign up to the mailing list?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I've been getting them from both Facebook and Twitter. I get more from Facebook, but I have my information displayed over there. At Twitter, it only appears on the days I'm promoting it.


----------



## 28612

I've had a mailing list since I actually mailed stuff (boy, glad ~that's~ in the past.) Revived the core of that list in 2011, about a year after starting indie pubbing.

Lots of good advice here already. A few things from my experience:

-- I've seen a pretty consistent build percentage-wise over these 3 years. The good news is as the list grows and the percentage stays the same, the raw numbers of signups are climbing, climbing. So be patient for a slow build. Keep plugging away.

-- Send the newsletter regularly. I so didn't want to do this. Wanted just to send out when I had news. I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Once I started sending monthly, open rates & click rates began climbing every month. Plus the growth percentage went up.

-- Sending regularly instead of solely in response to news has pushed me to think of more stuff readers might be interested in, and even let them in on what I'm working on/my process. This is not natural for me. But subscribers seem to really like it.

-- Keep 'em short. Make 'em easy to look at, especially on mobile.

-- About a week before next newsletter is coming out, I post on FB and Twitter saying "It's coming. If you haven't signed up yet, here's how." (This is in addition to what other folks have said about having ways to sign up at end of books, on your website, permanently on FB tab.)

-- I do giveaways. But I rarely tell nonsubscribers about them . . . though I might hint in general terms that there's something good for subscribers <wg>. And I will post on FB congratulating the subscriber winners. For me, the giveaways are not to tempt folks to sign up; they're rewards for the folks who do subscribe. I don't do it every month, because I don't want to build an expectation/obligation. I want to do this because I want to, not because I have to. Do some small, some bigger. Last month was giving away 3 ereaders.

My list is pushing 5.5k now, and I hope to keep it growing.

Keep at it!


----------



## delilahcanaan

I completely agree with you. But writing series and email list I need to do.
Thankyou!


----------



## aca891

Wow, great advice in this thread!


----------



## Nancy Warren

Patricia McLinn said:


> I've had a mailing list since I actually mailed stuff (boy, glad ~that's~ in the past.) Revived the core of that list in 2011, about a year after starting indie pubbing.
> 
> Lots of good advice here already. A few things from my experience:
> 
> -- I've seen a pretty consistent build percentage-wise over these 3 years. The good news is as the list grows and the percentage stays the same, the raw numbers of signups are climbing, climbing. So be patient for a slow build. Keep plugging away.
> 
> -- Send the newsletter regularly. I so didn't want to do this. Wanted just to send out when I had news. I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Once I started sending monthly, open rates & click rates began climbing every month. Plus the growth percentage went up.
> 
> -- Sending regularly instead of solely in response to news has pushed me to think of more stuff readers might be interested in, and even let them in on what I'm working on/my process. This is not natural for me. But subscribers seem to really like it.
> 
> -- Keep 'em short. Make 'em easy to look at, especially on mobile.
> 
> -- About a week before next newsletter is coming out, I post on FB and Twitter saying "It's coming. If you haven't signed up yet, here's how." (This is in addition to what other folks have said about having ways to sign up at end of books, on your website, permanently on FB tab.)
> 
> -- I do giveaways. But I rarely tell nonsubscribers about them . . . though I might hint in general terms that there's something good for subscribers <wg>. And I will post on FB congratulating the subscriber winners. For me, the giveaways are not to tempt folks to sign up; they're rewards for the folks who do subscribe. I don't do it every month, because I don't want to build an expectation/obligation. I want to do this because I want to, not because I have to. Do some small, some bigger. Last month was giving away 3 ereaders.
> 
> My list is pushing 5.5k now, and I hope to keep it growing.
> 
> Keep at it!


Oh, Lord, I don't miss those old days of actually mailing things out like newsletters and books. And the person who won always lived on the other side of the planet!

Patricia, that's really interesting about the monthly newsletter. I am so frightened to scare the readers off that I only post when I have a new release. I will try your method. Good to know.

This whole thread is fantastic, btw. I just started putting the newsletter link in books. Must add a FB link.

Nancy


----------



## JoshMorris05

This actually works, simple is always best. I have done this outside of kindle and amazon so I expect it to work just as well or better with kindle. Thanks for the post


----------



## MMJustus

I've offered incentives.  I've put the links in my books (including the permafree book).  I have had *no* sign-ups.  Not one.  For well over a year.  The books are reviewed well, including professionally, so it's not the quality of the books that's the problem.  Is there *any* other way (not just trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic by changing up the incentive or whatnot, but something *different*) to attract people to my mailing list?


----------



## 31842

MMJustus said:


> I've offered incentives. I've put the links in my books (including the permafree book). I have had *no* sign-ups. Not one. For well over a year. The books are reviewed well, including professionally, so it's not the quality of the books that's the problem. Is there *any* other way (not just trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic by changing up the incentive or whatnot, but something *different*) to attract people to my mailing list?


That is so strange that you wouldn't have a single one! This is probably going to sound akin to the IT guy asking if you've tried turning it off and on again, but have you double checked that the hyperlinks to your mailing list work? Tried signing up for your own mailing list to make sure there isn't a problem with the account? Asked a friend or family member to try? It just seems bizarre.


----------



## MMJustus

KateDanley said:


> That is so strange that you wouldn't have a single one! This is probably going to sound akin to the IT guy asking if you've tried turning it off and on again, but have you double checked that the hyperlinks to your mailing list work? Tried signing up for your own mailing list to make sure there isn't a problem with the account? Asked a friend or family member to try? It just seems bizarre.


Yes, the links all work. So does the account. That's not the problem.


----------



## Becca Mills

MMJustus said:


> Yes, the links all work. So does the account. That's not the problem.


Maybe there's something about your solicitation that's sapping its effectiveness? Wording? Placement in the book?

I put mine on the page after the book ends. It's part of my "About the Author" thingie. I know some people put it on the same page with the end of the book, so that the reader is likely to see it without turning the page. I try not to put too much on that page. My sign-ups improved when cut back the number of links on the page. (Before, I was telling them literally every way they could get in touch with/interact with me; now it's Fb and my website and that's it.)

Light and funny or personal or clever seems to work well (not just "Join my mailing list: link"). I don't know if this is still the case, but SM Reine's used to invite readers to join her army of darkness, which is awesome and right in keeping with her books.


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## Lucas Bale

Donna White Glaser said:


> This, exactly. Before people volunteer for more email clutter, they have to really want to hear about your news. They won't know that until they become a fan. Not just a reader, mind you. A FAN.


I'm not sure I completely agree with this, with respect. I published my first novel this week and I had a mailing list of 70 when I did that. Now look, I know that's no great shakes in comparison to the thousands some of the authors on this board have, but my book has been in the top ten of its categories for pretty much all of this week (in the UK store - less competition, but I'm in the UK so most of my sales are coming from there). A lot of that is down to the books bought by those on my list on launch day and then some sensible marketing after that. I'm sure it will drop and I'll be looking at 1-2 sales a day from then on, but the much-needed visibility was gained by having a mailing list before I published.

It is possible to build a list through a good blog with relevant content, _before_ you publish, and being active on social media in the way people like - being human and interacting positively rather than trying to sell. Also, about 30% of my list are friends who I have direct contact with, but who have passed on my details to people they know like my genre. One time, I saw a guy at work in the lift with a Star Wars t-shirt on - I asked him if he liked sci-fi and we chatted. I wrote down my mailing list link for him, he subscribed the next day and he read my book when I gave it away free to my entire list. He then bought a copy and reviewed it the day after the launch. Just because I stopped him and chatted.

I'm just saying that building a list before you publish is possible and worth doing. It might take some thinking outside the box.


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## JFHilborne

Thanks for sharing. I use mail chimp and love your idea of giving subscribers free stuff a few times a year. I take a mail list to every signing I do, and lots of people add their names/email addy's to it. I just add them to my mail chimp list when I get home.


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## MMJustus

Becca Mills said:


> Maybe there's something about your solicitation that's sapping its effectiveness? Wording? Placement in the book?


Possibly. But you'd think I'd have gotten at least one sign-up no matter what.



> I put mine on the page after the book ends. It's part of my "About the Author" thingie. I know some people put it on the same page with the end of the book, so that the reader is likely to see it without turning the page. I try not to put too much on that page. My sign-ups improved when cut back the number of links on the page. (Before, I was telling them literally every way they could get in touch with/interact with me; now it's Fb and my website and that's it.)


Well, that's possible, too. Although I do have direct links to the Amazon review page on the last page of my book, too, and that's not really gotten any takers, either. I wonder if putting all of that _between_ the end of the book and the sample chapter of the next book is my problem. People just skip over it.



> Light and funny or personal or clever seems to work well (not just "Join my mailing list: link"). I don't know if this is still the case, but SM Reine's used to invite readers to join her army of darkness, which is awesome and right in keeping with her books.


Huh. I hadn't thought of that. Gods know what on earth I could say, though...


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## Eileen Goudge

The trick is in building a mailing list.  It's not as easy as it would seem.  One way is to run a contest on your website.  No purchase necessary but entrants have to sign up for your mailing list.  I use Mail Chimp as well - it's good. You also need kickass book covers.  Amateurish ones are a turnoff.


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## jdrew

Lucas Bale said:


> I'm not sure I completely agree with this, with respect. I published my first novel this week and I had a mailing list of 70 when I did that. Now look, I know that's no great shakes in comparison to the thousands some of the authors on this board have, but my book has been in the top ten of its categories for pretty much all of this week (in the UK store - less competition, but I'm in the UK so most of my sales are coming from there). A lot of that is down to the books bought by those on my list on launch day and then some sensible marketing after that. I'm sure it will drop and I'll be looking at 1-2 sales a day from then on, but the much-needed visibility was gained by having a mailing list before I published.


Lucas, curious - can you expand on the "some sensible marketing" or is that the be on social media thing you talk about later?


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## Lydniz

SimonePond said:


> I cannot seem to grow my mailing list on my website. I have 4 people who signed up for it, and one of them was me to see if it worked. I have more luck with facebook and twitter, but as you know facebook limits the amount of viewers. I'm just not sure how to get people to take the plunge and join the mailing list. I wonder if I'm doing something wrong?


Do you have the signup link at the front and back of your books? I can see you don't have it on your Amazon author page. Put it there too.


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## jaxspenser

Thank you for boiling down (oh, I realize there's more to it) for us. It's a great starting place for us just getting our feet wet-- I'd say, the top of my feet are still dry in recognition that I've not been doing this very long at all. And yet, I totally see what kind of opportunity this really is for driven writers. Uh... huge! 

Jax


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## JeanetteRaleigh

I'm excited.  I finally did it!  I have a mailing list for my regular books and one of my pen names.  AND I have my first sign up.  Small steps    Thanks for the post.  I've been hearing this from some of my other writer friends as well. 

I haven't figured out how to post a Mailchimp signup on a 'free' Wordpress blog, though.  If anyone knows what I'm missing, I'd love to know. The instructions don't match what I see on the Wordpress menu. I've just purchased three years w/ my hosting company for the regular website, so probably won't swap to paid Wordpress for a while.


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## Lydniz

You can only put a link to your signup page on a free blog.  To embed a form you need WordPress.org.


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## Michael Buckley

Lucas Bale said:


> I'm not sure I completely agree with this, with respect. I published my first novel this week and I had a mailing list of 70 when I did that. Now look, I know that's no great shakes in comparison to the thousands some of the authors on this board have, but my book has been in the top ten of its categories for pretty much all of this week (in the UK store - less competition, but I'm in the UK so most of my sales are coming from there). A lot of that is down to the books bought by those on my list on launch day and then some sensible marketing after that. I'm sure it will drop and I'll be looking at 1-2 sales a day from then on, but the much-needed visibility was gained by having a mailing list before I published.
> 
> It is possible to build a list through a good blog with relevant content, _before_ you publish, and being active on social media in the way people like - being human and interacting positively rather than trying to sell. Also, about 30% of my list are friends who I have direct contact with, but who have passed on my details to people they know like my genre. One time, I saw a guy at work in the lift with a Star Wars t-shirt on - I asked him if he liked sci-fi and we chatted. I wrote down my mailing list link for him, he subscribed the next day and he read my book when I gave it away free to my entire list. He then bought a copy and reviewed it the day after the launch. Just because I stopped him and chatted.
> 
> I'm just saying that building a list before you publish is possible and worth doing. It might take some thinking outside the box.


Lucas has a good point, 70 people added to your mailing list in a week? Great, I have had a list for over a year and have 9 only and one of them is myself.  I am more of hermit than a social butterfly. Someone trying to sell them something or please like my Facebook page gets old fast, I promote my stuff on Twitter, but I know it can anger some people if you always promote your books. I need to learn to interact and write better books.


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## JeanetteRaleigh

Thanks Lydniz!


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## Chris Dietzel

I wish I would have read this thread a long time ago. But at least I'm finally on the right path and doing everything mentioned here. Thanks for all the helpful advice.


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## Lucas030

I started with SP a few month ago and published 14 short storys so far. I ever knew that an email list is a good way to promote the own books in the future. And I also knew about Mailchimp but I thought that it is necessary to have a website. This point has put me off.

But yesterday I found this thread here where the OP is telling how to setup such an email list without a website (on page 1). So I have done it today and insert a catchy button (to my mailing list) into some of my books.

I got 16 subscribers within 1h so far and I am very very happy about it. I just want to thank the OP for this great information!

Btw: I think an email list is very important because you are completely independent of any platform (amazon, twitter, Facebook and so on).

Now I have to think about how to work with my email list in the future. Should I send emails every week to keep the relationship to my customers? Or should I only send an email just when I have published a new book (one mail/month). I have to think about this now.


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## jackiegp

Wow! You sure are doing something right! I can't imagine 200 copies in the first two weeks and so on...your stats are amazing to me! And yet you go on to say some readers have not bought in...sounds like you're doing wonderful to me! Thanks for these posts...learning lots.

Can you, or anyone here, elaborate on this point for me... "2. Aggressively attract those readers to your mailing list..." Ideas on how to do this?


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## jackiegp

ゴジラ said:


> I use Mailchimp: http://mailchimp.com/
> 
> And then I link to the sign-up form at the end of my books.
> 
> Here's mine for illustrative purposes: http://eepurl.com/eWERY


How did you get this mailchimp email embedded in the back of your book? Or do you mean you have a link embedded to this in the back of your books? Curious.


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## Lucas030

@jackiegp

I prefer a typical yellow "subscribe button" at the beginning and the end of my books. At the end it is clear. At the beginning because I can also catch the email-adresses of the people who have only looked inside my books.

I think "aggressively attract" means that you should use every opportunity to catch the email adresses of your readers. Nice looking advertisings in book 1 (and maybe in your other books), free giveaways (maybe a short story) if they subscribe to your list, maybe you should make your 1st book permanent free (or sell ist cheap) to get more subscribers, post your link to facebook/your blog/forums, maybe create a permanent free xxl-exerpt of your books on amazon and so. With "Aggressive" the OP means that you should spend more time/work in the promotion for book 1 (with the intension to fill your mailing-list) than you do for promotion before. If you have done it right with book 1 you don't have to take so much "aggresive promotion" when you published the 2nd and 3rd part of your series.

That's my interpretation. Hope I am right.


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## jackiegp

Lucas030 said:


> @jackiegp
> 
> I prefer a typical yellow "subscribe button" at the beginning and the end of my books. At the end it is clear. At the beginning because I can also catch the email-adresses of the people who have only looked inside my books.
> 
> I think "aggressively attract" means that you should use every opportunity to catch the email adresses of your readers. Nice looking advertisings in book 1 (and maybe in your other books), free giveaways (maybe a short story) if they subscribe to your list, maybe you should make your 1st book permanent free (or sell ist cheap) to get more subscribers, post your link to facebook/your blog/forums, maybe create a permanent free xxl-exerpt of your books on amazon and so. With "Aggressive" the OP means that you should spend more time/work in the promotion for book 1 (with the intension to fill your mailing-list) than you do for promotion before. If you have done it right with book 1 you don't have to take so much "aggresive promotion" when you published the 2nd and 3rd part of your series.
> 
> That's my interpretation. Hope I am right.


Yellow Subscribe Button you say? Do tell how you get/make/attach/find one of those? Is it in Mailchimp? Such a rookie here. Sorry.

I do intend on making book 1 of If Only free once the third is out...and once it's out of KDP, which is doing NOTHING for me btw...sigh. Tick Tick.


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## Nomadwoman

jackiegp said:


> Yellow Subscribe Button you say? Do tell how you get/make/attach/find one of those? Is it in Mailchimp? Such a rookie here. Sorry.
> 
> I do intend on making book 1 of If Only free once the third is out...and once it's out of KDP, which is doing NOTHING for me btw...sigh. Tick Tick.


I'd also like to know how to get a button into Kindle Ebook. 
Surely there is no point putting it at te start though now that Amazon takes reader right to Page 1


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## Nomadwoman

Lydniz said:


> Do you have the signup link at the front and back of your books? I can see you don't have it on your Amazon author page. Put it there too.


I cannot see how to put the opt-in box on the Author Central page - would you mind enlightening?
(After 30k words this week my fingers/brain are gonzo-ed- to excuse any ugly unedited typos)


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## JE_Owen

This is really encouraging! I'm definiely more of a slow build author, so I was happy to read this. I know you posted some time ago, but I just wanted to say the info is still awesomely helpful! (Obviously, since they have it specially linked for authors...)

Anyway. Just keep swimming, I suppose.  

And start a mailing list...

*toodles off*


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## katrina46

ゴジラ said:


> I use Mailchimp: http://mailchimp.com/
> 
> And then I link to the sign-up form at the end of my books.
> 
> Here's mine for illustrative purposes: http://eepurl.com/eWERY


This has been working for me. I stick the link in the back of every book now. At first I didn't think anyone would really sign up, but they are slowly, with a trickle here and there.


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## themeanbanana

How many books would you say you write yearly?  I have written one and am half way through another.  Is it too early for me to start this process?


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## 68564

ゴジラ said:


> I think I wrote ten books last year?


See this kills me - I am like "but I got 1 book out last year!" and cry and moan about how slow I am - but really my problem (and I suspect most writers) is not speed, but time.

I just finished the first draft of my 8th novel. At 90k it is a little short for me, but it will grow in editing. I looked at my log... just under 91 hours. Thats 2 weeks work as a full time job, 1 weeks work as a workaholic. Most of my books are in the same realm of time - about 1 months work start to finish = a book. Just finding that one month time when you work full time and have a family and and and is the hard part. I suspect that is true of most of us.

So I stopped crying and moaning and got better scheduling.  I am on track for 2, maybe three books this year. That is triple my normal output.

Anyways - just something to consider.


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## R.J.Clark

Thanks so much for all the great information--in the original post(s) and all the comments. I'm definitely on a slow (very slow) uphill climb, but better uphill than downhill, eh?

Becky


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## Sever Bronny

ゴジラ said:


> I think I wrote ten books last year


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## Reaper

Definitely bookmarking this thread. Thanks to the OP and to everyone who's contributed!


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## SA_Soule

Thank you sharing this awesome advice and congrats on all your success!


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## Veronica Sicoe

ゴジラ said:


> I think I wrote ten books last year?


Holy crap! I'm currently writing my second book (in a trilogy) and looking for ways to increase my speed -- and this sort of rate both stimulates and intimidates the hell out of me. KUDOS and... Jesus...


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## noob

one of the top three most helpful threads on kb

THANK YOU


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## cw hawes

This is a fabulous post! Reinforces what I've been running across elsewhere. And to think it's been here all this time and I only discovered it now! Glad I did, though!


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## Talbot

Ah, here's a promo model I can afford! Thanks for this.


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## Jim Johnson

Cleaning out my bookmarks and stumbled upon this gem. For all you thinking you need elaborate marketing plans, give the OP a read and experiment with something different. Lots of good stuff in this thread.


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## naviwang

Hope it's okay to bump up this helpful post with a few questions.

1. It's been 6 years since you started the thread. Would you say the mailing list is still going strong? Do you have any way to track what percentage of subscribers are actively engaged/following your every email?
2. How frequently do you send out updates? One of the hard parts of social media is keeping readers up to date... I'm worried long stretches of inactivity would lose interest, no?


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