# Sept KU/KOLL rate = $1.51/$1.52 -- MERGED THREAD



## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Reports are out.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Mine says $1.52.

Rue


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

Forgive me if I've started a duplicate thread. I'm also getting 1.51 like a few other people.

This means that I'm all in for shorts and out for pretty much everything else unless sales tank. If novels sell at 4.99, 1.51ish may be stable but it's not really good enough to kill off my outreach at other retailers.

Thoughts? Any word about All-Stars yet?


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

ruecole said:


> Mine says $1.52.
> 
> Rue


Yep. $1.52 according to mine.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Mine came out to $1.518...

That's probably why some are getting $1.52


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

My reaction is that I can relax and stop feeling like I'm going to black out. (Okay, I'm over sensitive.) The stabilizing payment is a very good thing.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

Better than the $1.20 I predicted.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

I will not comment. I will not comment. No matter what anyone says.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

I was estimating them at $1.50, so that works out fine. However, it means I doubt I'm putting much of anything in Select going forward. Just not worth it for someone who writes full-length novels.


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## Sylvia R. Frost (Jan 8, 2014)

This is EXACTLY the number I predicted.


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

It makes it easier for me to keep future installments of my series out of select: my strategy now is to sell as many as I can everywhere then when sales dwindle I'll put them all back in select to pick up the stragglers aka non fans. Let's face it ku is now the new permafree.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

I have three shorts in Select and they made me $300 last month (in borrows). I'm sure I would've made more money if I placed them on the other sites... or maybe not. They're so short that I don't want to place them anywhere else and charge $2.99, but I don't mind doing that on Amazon since they can be downloaded for "Free".


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

D. Zollicoffer said:


> They're so short that I don't want to place them anywhere else and charge $2.99, but I don't mind doing that on Amazon since they can be downloaded for "Free".


As a still paying subscriber, this comment really always confuses me. $10 a month is not free in my universe.

I am also going to drop the subscription mainly because I am about through the full books to read from amazon publishers and also because more and more short stuff is being put in and books I had on wish list are being pulled. There just is no value in it anymore for me. I have been reading and hearing the same among many of my fellow readers. 
As it is right now, it is a subscription to amazon publishing houses. But the problem is that I already read a lot of them with the prime loan I used to have included in my prime cost. I think I am better off buying the amazon published titles on sale. I can buy 5 titles on sale for $1.99 for the same cost as the subscription.

I think a lot of subscribers have dropped out for a lot of books being pulled and more and more shorts being put in. Just what I have been seeing around reader parts. Now if someone is a voracious reader of shorts, they might find value.

I don't see how they can sustain the payout when they end up with fewer subscribers and more lower cost shorts. I am not really good in math admittingly, but even I can see the issues here.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> The sky is falling! Panic now!
> 
> But, yeah, it was pretty obvious that the payout was going to go down. It's still better than I make on a $1.99 short story sale, but I'd be less happy if I was selling $9.99 novels.


It's better than what you make on a $1.99 short. It is a LONG way down from what I make on a $4.99 novel. It is getting really hard to justify keeping novels in.


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## ThePete (Oct 10, 2013)

One interesting tidbit is that bonus for non-US borrows. That means a UK borrow is worth $2.02 USD, with the current exchange rate.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I don't see how they can sustain the payout when they end up with fewer subscribers and more lower cost shorts. I am not really good in math admittingly, but even I can see the issues here.


Frankly, the whole subscription thing seems like another fad to me. I don't see how the business model can work in the long term for any of the subscription sites, not just Amazon, because authors won't put books in there if the rewards are too low, and the sites can't pay out for dozens of books a month if they're only charging $9.99.

It all seems to be based on convincing people to pay $9.99 to borrow a couple of books a month. Or, perhaps, the usual dot-com dream of selling out to a bigger business before they go bust.


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## Miss Tarheel (Jul 18, 2014)

Mine was $1.52. September was the first month I made a decent chunk of change which isn't bad considering I didn't start publishing shorts until the last week of September. I made enough to fill my car up, so that's one bill I don't have to worry about.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Yeah, I'm out. Not worth it, considering my borrow rate.



Atunah said:


> I don't see how they can sustain the payout when they end up with fewer subscribers and more lower cost shorts. I am not really good in math admittingly, but even I can see the issues here.


This. I may be back in when Amazon designates a fairer share to full-priced books.
But I'm beginning to suspect that KU was intended to become a low-end ghetto (note: I don't mean low quality. I mean shorter works or lower prices)


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## rashad.freeman001 (Feb 23, 2012)

Well that's not very motivating LOL.  I assumed they'd tick up and try to get near the 2 dollar mark, but they are headed in the wrong direction.  Looks like I'll write about 40 short stories and put them all in KU, that's about the only way it makes sense at this point.


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## Melly Mack (Jan 2, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Frankly, the whole subscription thing seems like another fad to me. I don't see how the business model can work in the long term for any of the subscription sites, not just Amazon, because authors won't put books in there if the rewards are too low, and the sites can't pay out for dozens of books a month if they're only charging $9.99.


Here's another wrinkle though. What if Amazon decides to put ALL KDP into KU. Then the choice becomes whether to exit Amazon entirely, and how many indies could afford to do that? There would be a ton of outrage, but Amazon has shown in the past a willingness to make unpopular moves, such as dumping affiliates in certain states to avoid pay taxes, and the huge ACX royalty cut (which didn't generate even much criticism, seems to me).


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

rashad.freeman001 said:


> Well that's not very motivating LOL. I assumed they'd tick up and try to get near the 2 dollar mark, but they are headed in the wrong direction. Looks like I'll write about 40 short stories and put them all in KU, that's about the only way it makes sense at this point.


That seems to be the going consensus and I assume kboards is very representive of indie writers as a whole. I see ku being stuff to the gills with serialized works and kinky erotica by the end of 2014. That will also be when my own select terms run out. Unless ur Hugh howey or ag riddle and u r featured on every recommendation carousel I can't see how anyone with full length books can look at this and bE happy with 1.50 payout.


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## Melly Mack (Jan 2, 2011)

rashad.freeman001 said:


> Well that's not very motivating LOL. I assumed they'd tick up and try to get near the 2 dollar mark, but they are headed in the wrong direction. Looks like I'll write about 40 short stories and put them all in KU, that's about the only way it makes sense at this point.


I'm curious to know why people thought Sept would be HIGHER than August? Amazon has been pumping in extra funds beyond the initial pot each month since the beginning of KU. It seems to me they know exactly what they want to pay per borrow.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Frankly, the whole subscription thing seems like another fad to me. I don't see how the business model can work in the long term for any of the subscription sites, not just Amazon, because authors won't put books in there if the rewards are too low, and the sites can't pay out for dozens of books a month if they're only charging $9.99.
> 
> It all seems to be based on convincing people to pay $9.99 to borrow a couple of books a month. Or, perhaps, the usual dot-com dream of selling out to a bigger business before they go bust.


I love the subscription model. I am a voracious reader. But its all about content. I will happily continue to pay Scribd $8.99 a month. Heck, I'd even pay 14.99 a month considering the publisher they now have on board. There I don't have to sift through page after page of shorts and there are well know authors in it. No offense, but if someone charges money for a subscription, readers want that stuff. Publishers and known authors.

I have no clue how Scribd pays, I don't really care. I just care that I get to read stuff I actually want to read, as suppose to KU, where I started to fill my wishlist with stuff just to make a list and give it some value. I am better off just buying those books right now. With Scribd its different. There are publisher there that never put their stuff on free, or even cheap. Like Simon and Schuster, they don't even have their books at my overdrive library. So I have a wishlist for authors from that publisher. They now have 12 publishers that I read books from.

I had wished KU to have the content of Scribd, but the ability of reading on my e-ink device. But it is never going to happen with the relationship publishers have with Amazon.

They might as well shift focus and make it a Kindle Shorts Unlimited. All you can read shorts. Or a tiered system. But then they can't call it unlimited anymore.

If you bring the names, you get the subscribers. Its really that simple for most readers.

And I am not an author, so I don't have a dog in the fight. But if I was a writer and wrote novels, I would be upset too to know that something just a few pages long gets the same payout than something 350 pages long. 
That system just creates a shift on what folks put into the program. People are pulling their novels out and putting their shorts in. So in a few months down the line, you have Kindle Shorts Unlimited+ Amazon Imprints.


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

Melly Mack said:


> I'm curious to know why people thought Sept would be HIGHER than August? Amazon has been pumping in extra funds beyond the initial pot each month since the beginning of KU. It seems to me they know exactly what they want to pay per borrow.


Good question. I asked what was behind this reasoning in another thread and was called a troll for it. I guess some people just believe Amazon is their bff and will always do right by them.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Melly Mack said:


> Here's another wrinkle though. What if Amazon decides to put ALL KDP into KU.


If they put all KDP titles into KU it would mean the exclusivity requirement won't exist any more. That would actually suit a lot of folks.

The greater evil is if they insist on exclusivity for ALL KDP titles_ because _it's a Select requirement (from which they'll of course exempt the "all stars" who will continue to cheerlead for them).


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Melly Mack said:


> Here's another wrinkle though. What if Amazon decides to put ALL KDP into KU. Then the choice becomes whether to exit Amazon entirely, and how many indies could afford to do that? There would be a ton of outrage, but Amazon has shown in the past a willingness to make unpopular moves, such as dumping affiliates in certain states to avoid pay taxes, and the huge ACX royalty cut (which didn't generate even much criticism, seems to me).


I wondered this myself earlier, but it doesn't make sense for Amazon, as all that would happen then is that indie authors would stop writing novels and start writing 99c shorts, and then presumably sales would go down, since a lot of readers prefer novel-length stuff. Unless it's a plot by Amazon to stop indie authors from writing novels, which seems unlikely.


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

Jj2011 said:


> That seems to be the going consensus and I assume kboards is very representive of indie writers as a whole. I see ku being stuff to the gills with serialized works and kinky erotica by the end of 2014. That will also be when my own select terms run out. Unless ur Hugh howey or ag riddle and u r featured on every recommendation carousel I can't see how anyone with full length books can look at this and bE happy with 1.50 payout.


I think assuming kboards is representative of indie writers on the whole would be a mistake. There are a lot of other places where writers hang out and, at the ones I frequent anyway, they're rarely in agreement with the prevailing opinion here (and often fairly unflattering about the prevailing opinion here).

I'm happy with the payout and I know a lot of other authors who will be. My income has steadily increased month-on-month since KU started and that's without any significant new releases in that period. This includes income from higher priced novels where the increase in borrows and the subsequent increase in sales that goes hand-in-hand with the rank boost has continued to compensate for the declining borrow rate by a significant margin. This month is no exception.


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## Melly Mack (Jan 2, 2011)

Quiss said:


> If they put all KDP titles into KU it would mean the exclusivity requirement won't exist any more. That would actually suit a lot of folks.
> 
> The greater evil is if they insist on exclusivity for ALL KDP titles_ because _it's a Select requirement (from which they'll of course exempt the "all stars" who will continue to cheerlead for them).


Oh, right. Great point. Actually that *would* be ideal for a lot of people (your first scenario anyway). I hate being exclusive, but I have to go where the money is -- and move when the money moves. But I was having trouble with erotica on the other sites anyway. I'm kinda glad my non-erotica tanked on Select. No difficulty deciding to pull those out in a couple weeks.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Sure, it's great for people who read a lot of books. It just makes no sense to me as a business model if you want to make money.


Maybe that is the exact reason why Scribd was able to get some of the publishers on board. Like Harlequin with its 15,000 titles recently. More and more indy's appear on the top selling charts, publishers have to adjust. So that is one way they are trying this. They have a large catalog of backlist titles they can bargain with. Indy authors often just have themselves, so any small step has bigger consequences.

There is another benefit for publishers. I used to put myself on wait lists at libraries for some of the same publishers books. Its not the new stuff, Scribd doesn't have new releases, but even 2-3 year old stuff would only have one copy and I have to wait. Now instead of that, I go to Scribd and pick it up there. There is also a larger catalog on Scribd than most libraries have. No wonder considering how much they have to pay for digital titles.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Atunah said:


> I think a lot of subscribers have dropped out for a lot of books being pulled and more and more shorts being put in. Just what I have been seeing around reader parts. Now if someone is a voracious reader of shorts, they might find value.


It'll be interesting to see what happens if this is an accurate summary, and if you're not alone in leaving.

I wouldn't be surprised if ultimately, borrow royalties get pinned to something more like pages read, vs. titles borrowed. That'd be problematic, of course, but it's all problematic. If they could succeed at some kind of implementation along those lines, it'd be a handy way to resolve the concerns over shorts dominating the market (and erotica in particular) and provide more equilibrium between 5,000 books and 50,000 word books.

All of that said, note that borrows continue to rise: ignoring the small bonuses for international titles, the total fund was $4.7m in August and $5m in September, yet royalties per unit have decreased. Something like 3.05m borrows in August up to 3.29m borrows in September. The total number of titles in KU has also been rising. By these lights at least, it looks quite healthy.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

In any subscription model, people who use the asset the most are outliers. They're the most expensive users, and you want them to unsubscribe at a pretty good clip. Those who stay are likely to be good promoters. 

KU is just started. There will be changes. Just look how cable movie channels used to show the same 6 movies over and over. Now they have original content that blows network TV out of the water. It's all just started.

At $1.50, I'm happy. I'm curious where it's going. Maybe start releasing $4.99 novels. If a lot of novel writers jump out of the pool, I'll be swimming there all alone. Woo.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Wow, well I wasn't expecting that. I predicted $1.70, under the mistaken belief that Amazon wouldn't show their cards so early. 

Well, I won't be putting anything in there again, then. Not even my shorts, which I sell for $3 apiece. I'm doing too well at Google to waste them in this program, even for 3 months. 

I can't see this program lasting very long the way it is. Scribd is definitely winning this war.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

Jj2011 said:


> Good question. I asked what was behind this reasoning in another thread and was called a troll for it. I guess some people just believe Amazon is their bff and will always do right by them.


It was thought that Amazon would kick the payout higher to prevent a mass exodus of authors who price higher than $2.99. Evidently they arn't worried about that as much as some predicted. Although I'm not so sure they are right after reading the comments here.

"People are pulling their novels out and putting their shorts in. So in a few months down the line, you have Kindle Shorts Unlimited+ Amazon Imprints."

You could very well be right.

Added question; Did the Zon say how much they added to the pot to reach this payout? If any?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Quiss said:


> If they put all KDP titles into KU it would mean the exclusivity requirement won't exist any more. That would actually suit a lot of folks.


It won't suit ANYONE selling books at $2.99 or higher I should think. Certainly not me.


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## Twizzlers (Feb 6, 2014)

As a serial writer I love KU now. I get 80-150 borrows a day plus my usual 50-100 sales and my ranking is going up. 
Sure it stinks for my 2.99-3.99 books but I'm happy with the trade-off because I'm making more than I did previously.


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## Melly Mack (Jan 2, 2011)

Randall Wood said:


> It was thought that Amazon would kick the payout higher to prevent a mass exodus of authors who price higher than $2.99. Evidently they arn't worried about that as much as some predicted. Although I'm not so sure they are right after reading the comments here.


That's a plausible theory, certainly. Maybe zon didn't see that many pullout. At least not yet. But for people who only just joined select to try out KU when it started (like me) their 3months will be up most likely sometime this month. So if next month's payout IS higher, we might have some idea why.


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## K. D. (Jun 6, 2013)

There still will be changes. Don't forget that in September the UK was added and in October Germany.  As far as I know the fund is worldwide, not just usa. And the trials in this countries are still on without bringing in one cent for Amazon.


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## books_mb (Oct 29, 2013)

Edward M. Grant said:


> At $1.50, someone who reads one and half shorts a week is costing Amazon more than they pay to subscribe. This model can't continue the way it is, if Amazon want to make money from it.


Assuming that this person would have bought the one and a half shorts if there were no subscription, which is not necessarily the case.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Any new All Stars yet, or are they the same guys as last month?


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## Joyce DeBacco (Apr 24, 2010)

Where do you find this info about the payouts? My graph shows just one borrow but I don't see any dollar amount listed anywhere.


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## Melly Mack (Jan 2, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> At $1.50, someone who reads one and half shorts a week is costing Amazon more than they pay to subscribe. This model can't continue the way it is, if Amazon want to make money from it.


 I don't see how any of the subscription services could survive long-term on their current models. Publish on Oyster and Scribd thru Smashwords you make 60% of the cover price per borrow read past 20% -- exactly the same as you would with an iBook or Kobo sale through Smashwords. I agree with people above who praised the selection on Scribd, MUCH better than KU, but Amazon has deeper pockets and -historically, anyway- a willingness to lose a lot of money to keep prices low and selection broad. Who knows what will happen. Worst cast scenario is it all goes the way of music and Pandora which pays fractions of a penny per song. Why own a book when you can always re-access it via subscription? It depends on what readers decide they want in the end.


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## Kathy Clark Author (Dec 18, 2012)

This model and current situation reminds me of differential equations with two unknowns...or is it decision making under conditions of uncertainty?

Before KU sales were 50 to 80 times more than total borrows...August through this month sales were 0.9 to 1.3 times total borrows.

But the kicker is total books downloaded have doubled.

Yes it is small sample [<15 months under both protocols]. Should I take them all out of KU and see what happens? What is the impact of all the authors rearranging the deck chairs when the lights go out?

Ahh free enterprise...


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## bobfrost (Sep 29, 2013)

Looking over the numbers, my KU payout is actually a bit higher. 

UK KU borrows paid at a higher rate than US borrows. Not sure why (perhaps a currency fluctuation). At any rate, my total borrow rate is actually a bit over 1.53$. Not a huge deal, but hey, money is money .


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## bobfrost (Sep 29, 2013)

Amazon doesn't need to make money from KU. I think the entire reason they are running KU is to ensure nobody else can do it.

Think about it. This month they burned 5 million on KU payouts. That's obviously offset by whatever number of paying subscribers they have, and their 10$/month payments.

Even if there was a loss, it has to be sub 5 million. Probably a LOT less than 5 million.

So here you are, burning a little bit of cash on a program that deals death blows to competition, ensures nobody else can one-up you using a subscription model, and drives a ton of consumers to your products, hardware, and website (where you sell EVERYTHING ELSE).

In short, I think the name of the game here is pay authors enough to keep them using KU, and don't worry about losing a few dollars because you EASILY make it up in the wash.


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

Edward M. Grant said:


> At $1.50, someone who reads one and half shorts a week is costing Amazon more than they pay to subscribe. This model can't continue the way it is, if Amazon want to make money from it.


Well, you have to factor in folks like me who subscribe and have only borrowed three books in the last thirty days. We pay for those who consume the most.


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## MySky (Sep 8, 2014)

Can someone tell me once and for all whether borrows count toward one's Amazon Sales Ranking? I've heard the answer both ways? Does Amazon have a stand on this?


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Any new All Stars yet, or are they the same guys as last month?


They haven't been announced yet, but I know two people who will be getting payouts (for books and as authors) who didn't last month.


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## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

At $1.51.8 I'm pretty happy with the number of borrows I get.  I was happier when it was close to $2., but never thought that would last forever.  Maybe the rates will go up when the free trials end and the real subscriber number are more predictable.


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## tessblunt (Jan 29, 2014)

Merry Freer said:


> Can someone tell me once and for all whether borrows count toward one's Amazon Sales Ranking? I've heard the answer both ways? Does Amazon have a stand on this?


They absolutely *do count* toward your ranking. I have two books in a series with comparable sales but one is in KU and one isn't.
Book #1 - 112 paid sales - 148 KU borrows - Sales Rank ~5,000
Book #2 - 128 paid sales - 0 KU borrows - Sales Rank ~11,000

All sales are steady, so there are no spikes for Book #1 to account for its inflated rank, it's the borrows boosting it for sure.


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## books_mb (Oct 29, 2013)

Delivering a digital file costs practically nothing, so the idea that such subsription services can't be profitable is based on the idea all (or most) of these downloads would have been regular sales without the subscription. This reminds of the silver iodide experiments on rainfall. You shoot a rocket filled with silver iodide into a cloud to make it rain. Then it rains. Would it have rained without the silver iodide injection? We'll never know. Only a thorough statistical analysis of historic rainfall rates and the rainfall rates that occur when using the rainmaker rockets on a regular basis can show if it works. The moral of the story: unless you know how many of the borrows would have been regular sales if there were no subscription service, it's impossible to say if you can make money with this or not. If six borrows of a two dollar book would have been six sales, then you lose money at a subscription fee of $ 10. If the six borrows on the same book would have been only three sales, you have a profit.


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

Edward M. Grant said:


> At $1.50, someone who reads one and half shorts a week is costing Amazon more than they pay to subscribe. This model can't continue the way it is, if Amazon want to make money from it.


You need to make some pretty big assumptions to get from the first half of your post to the second half.

We have no idea how many people are subscribed to KU. We have no idea how much any of them borrow. We have no idea what proportion of them cost Amazon money and what proportion of them make Amazon money. I don't see how you can possibly reach the conclusion you have without any of this information.

Keep in mind that even if a system like this operates at a loss there may be other benefits to amazon that more than make up for that loss. Prime works like this.


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## aimeeeasterling (Sep 22, 2014)

I don't think it's fair to think of a borrow as a lost sale the way many commenters above do.  I'd love to hear from other folks who keep data on non-borrow income month to month vs. borrow income.  Since everything I have is in KU, my borrow income has obviously gone up over the last few months, but my sale income has stayed steady or risen slightly.  In other words, it seems like the borrows are icing on top, not lost sales.  Since I wanted to keep everything in Select for the countdown deals and free periods, KU seems like a major boon even at $1.51 per borrow.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Bobfrost has the long and short of it. KU isn't meant to make money, it's meant to smother some of Scribd and Oyster's growth while driving customers to Amazon.

Scribd and Oyster n the meantime run on the 'Health Club' model where the intent is to have the people who pay you monthly actually exercise (heh) the benefits they paid for as little as possible. The best customer in the world is the one who pays but never shows up.


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Any new All Stars yet, or are they the same guys as last month?


Go To Hugh howeys wool Amazon page click on the all star badge/ribbon and it'll take u to the Allstars page. U can see all the usual suspects (howey riddle et) and all the newly minted Allstars there. The page is hard to find as hell which explains why Wayne stinett who was featured on it last month barely got a bump in sales. It's like Amazon put that page together just for us writers. A vanity trophy case if u will.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

books_mb said:


> Assuming that this person would have bought the one and a half shorts if there were no subscription, which is not necessarily the case.


If someone pays $9.99 a month and averages borrows on six and a half shorts, Amazon have to pay $9.88 to the authors. Add in transaction costs, and they're losing money. Whether they would have bought the books otherwise is irrelevant, if they're losing money on the borrows.


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

aimeeeasterling said:


> I don't think it's fair to think of a borrow as a lost sale the way many commenters above do. I'd love to hear from other folks who keep data on non-borrow income month to month vs. borrow income. Since everything I have is in KU, my borrow income has obviously gone up over the last few months, but my sale income has stayed steady or risen slightly. In other words, it seems like the borrows are icing on top, not lost sales. Since I wanted to keep everything in Select for the countdown deals and free periods, KU seems like a major boon even at $1.51 per borrow.


Oh u can tell its cannibalizing sales if u usually ship 200-300 a day before ku came out. If ur selling less than that yeah maybe u can't really tell. My guess is this is the purpose of the Allstars extra. To make up for the loss. The big players don't care but I'm willing to bet the people who sell well but r not blockbusters have certainly noticed.


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## MySky (Sep 8, 2014)

Thank you, TessBlunt. I had a feeling that was so, but couldn't verify it.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Molly Tomorrow said:


> You need to make some pretty big assumptions to get from the first half of your post to the second half.


No, you just need to do maths.

The only way it can work is if readers are happy to pay $9.99 to borrow three or four books a month. If they're $9.99 books, that may make sense, but how many people are going to keep a $9.99 book in a program that pays $1.50?

As I said, Amazon might not want to make money from it, but that's the only way I can see it continuing for long in the current form. Otherwise, they need to raise payouts to keep expensive books in, but they need to cut payouts to avoid losing tons of money on people reading a lot of shorts.

It's not as though this would be the first time Amazon began a program that worked well for authors, then let it fizzle out after a while.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Edward M. Grant said:


> It's not as though this would be the first time Amazon began a program that worked well for authors, then let it fizzle out after a while.


Yeah, does Matchbook actually work for anyone?


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## Joyce DeBacco (Apr 24, 2010)

Asking again, where did you get the info on the dollar amounts of borrows?


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Joyce DeBacco said:


> Asking again, where did you get the info on the dollar amounts of borrows?


In your KDP dashboard, click on Reports>Prior Month's Royalties>September
Download the spreadsheet
Find a line item with KU borrows, then scroll to the right to see the payout. Payout/borrows = rate per borrow.


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## Joyce DeBacco (Apr 24, 2010)

Thank you, LisaGloria.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

FYI KU UK was launched on 24th September so the $100,000 KDP put towards it was to cover just 6 days. The main fund was only for US borrows.


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

$1.52 sucks. That's half of what I'd make on a sale. If it stays at this sucky low rate, I'm definitely going to think about taking out the books that are over $2.99. IMO, it totally cannibalizes sales, especially if you're releasing a new book. Too bad you can't be in select for their pre-order tool and opt out of the borrow program. Gotta take the good with the ugly, I guess.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Sophrosyne said:


> $1.52 sucks. That's half of what I'd make on a sale. If it stays at this sucky low rate, I'm definitely going to think about taking out the books that are over $2.99. IMO, it totally cannibalizes sales, especially if you're releasing a new book. Too bad you can't be in select for their pre-order tool and opt out of the borrow program. Gotta take the good with the ugly, I guess.


You know you don't have to be in Select to do preorders, right?


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

all I really know is that I've had no long tail in purchases after my Oct 1 bookbub promo - but I'm having the long tail in borrows.  It almost makes me want to withdraw my collections from select, and just have the shorter stories in it. Of course, that limits my ability to do price break promos on the collections, so I just don't know.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

There are far too many black and white, in/out answers on this thread.  Many of you have full length novels that are burnt out, economically inactive. KU is the home for them, in the hope it may funnel readers into your other titles.

Authors taking an emotional leap out are defeating themselves. This is a title-by-title issue, not a lemming moment.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Why is every bit of advice about what to put into KU about putting in stuff readers have, in one way or another, said they don't want?

Break your books into chapters and call them serials!

Write a bunch of quick shorts!

Toss in the books you have hat aren't selling!

If you guys really want to hawk the program, maybe suggest people put in their highest quality, most popular stuff? For a massive paycut.


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

Lady Vine said:


> You know you don't have to be in Select to do preorders, right?


No, because I'm an idiot. LOL! Thanks for pointing that out! I just assumed they were connected. Next new release will not be going into Select. I'll wait until sales slow down and $1.50 starts looking good. I really think they need to do some prorating for length. Either that, or I need to start writing more short stories.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Jj2011 said:


> Go To Hugh howeys wool Amazon page click on the all star badge/ribbon and it'll take u to the Allstars page. U can see all the usual suspects (howey riddle et) and all the newly minted Allstars there. The page is hard to find as hell which explains why Wayne stinett who was featured on it last month barely got a bump in sales. It's like Amazon put that page together just for us writers. A vanity trophy case if u will.


That's not all of the All-Star authors, the ones on that page, if anybody cares. It's just a few of the featured books. I'm not on the page anywhere, and I actually moved up in All-Star rank/tier last month, got reasonably high up (I did have a book featured in the "Romance" category last month). I do think the badge on your page might help, though. A little more credibility, maybe.

I don't believe there's a list of the All-Star authors anywhere.


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

Quiss said:


> Yeah, does Matchbook actually work for anyone?


I don't think I've ever sold anything with this program. The sentiment on the Reddit fantasy group was, "Too bad there aren't any of the big name authors in it." It was doomed to failure from the start, I think, unless someone else has more info or better results?


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## MikeDavidson (Oct 5, 2013)

scottmarlowe said:


> I don't think I've ever sold anything with this program. The sentiment on the Reddit fantasy group was, "Too bad there aren't any of the big name authors in it." It was doomed to failure from the start, I think, unless someone else has more info or better results?


I get a sale here and there. Nothing worth bragging about


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> That's not all of the All-Star authors, the ones on that page, if anybody cares. It's just a few of the featured books. I'm not on the page anywhere, and I actually moved up in All-Star rank/tier last month, got reasonably high up (I did have a book featured in the "Romance" category last month). I do think the badge on your page might help, though. A little more credibility, maybe.
> 
> I don't believe there's a list of the All-Star authors anywhere.


Ah I didn't know that. I'm wondering if they still just go by number of units still? I must be somewhat low on the list because I still haven't gotten the email yet tho the badges have already appeared on my books.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

EC said:


> Many of you have full length novels that are burnt out, economically inactive. KU is the home for them, in the hope it may funnel readers into your other titles.
> 
> Authors taking an emotional leap out are defeating themselves. This is a title-by-title issue, not a lemming moment.


Actually, my two newest titles are in KU, and the others have a broad distribution. For me, KU still sucks compared to real sales. Currently, my ratio is about 1:1 sales to borrows.

You're right, though, that this is absolutely a title-by-title issue. I see people saying "weeeee, I had 4000 borrows". Borrows of what? Billionaire vampire threesomes? Well, duh.
We all have very different publications and one size cannot possibly fit all. It would be more telling to see borrow rates for similarly-priced books in the same genre. Hey, maybe someone can do a survey on that 

It just seems that, right now, KU is a better pay-off for the lower-priced stuff and so some of us with higher-priced items just don't quite get the celebration. And it's downright galling to see algorithms in favor of Select titles. So it's either accept the lower pay-out or watch your titles sink into obscurity.


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## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

KOLL/KU Global Fund for July was $2.785 million (average payout $1.80), 31 days of KOLL,* 14* days of KU
KOLL/KU Global Fund for August was $4.7 million (average payout $1.54), 31 days of KOLL, 31 days of KU
KOLL/KU Global Fund for September was $5 million (average payout $1.52), 30 days of KOLL, 30 days of KU

4.7 mil x 12 months = $56.4 mil
5 mil x 12 months = $60 mil

Is it safe to say that Amazon might be paying out $50-60 million a year to KDP Select? Or is it still too early to say?


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Maybe? Probably more? What's your point?


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

The point is that all billionaire vampire threesomes should be squashed immediately.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Quiss said:


> Actually, my two newest titles are in KU, and the others have a broad distribution. For me, KU still sucks compared to real sales. Currently, my ratio is about 1:1 sales to borrows.
> 
> You're right, though, that this is absolutely a title-by-title issue. I see people saying "weeeee, I had 4000 borrows". Borrows of what? Billionaire vampire threesomes? Well, duh.
> We all have very different publications and one size cannot possibly fit all. It would be more telling to see borrow rates for similarly-priced books in the same genre. Hey, maybe someone can do a survey on that
> ...


I have higher-priced books. There are pluses and minuses, but visibility-wise? I just had the best pre-order launch I've ever had--and you can't borrow a pre-order. So it's good for me. With so many people putting short stuff, serials, etc. in, I think you can actually do well with full novels. At least, that's how it's working.

I don't write vampire threesomes, and nor do I write billionaires. My WIP deals with sexual assault on college campuses, which I feel is pretty important. I think my books are just as "real" as fantasy or science fiction. There's been a lot of dissing of romance on here lately. Well--always and everywhere. What makes romance less worthy? I'd submit that it's because it is primarily read by women. I'd ask woman authors to think about that for a minute. It does offend me, and I'm not easily offended.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Rosalind James said:


> It does offend me, and I'm not easily offended.


I'm not sure at what point I dissed romance. I know it's got a huge readership, which was my point. If we every hope to find trends and make useful comparisons, we need to look at things like genre and other things that appeal to similar readerships.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I don't write vampire threesomes, and nor do I write billionaires. My WIP deals with sexual assault on college campuses, which I feel is pretty important. I think my books are just as "real" as fantasy or science fiction. There's been a lot of dissing of romance on here lately. Well--always and everywhere. What makes romance less worthy? I'd submit that it's because it is primarily read by women. I'd ask woman authors to think about that for a minute. It does offend me, and I'm not easily offended.


It looks like most readers overall are women, though this doesn't break down by genre of course: http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/01/16/a-snapshot-of-reading-in-america-in-2013/ But it's still super interesting.

I admit, I bought into the idea that romance was kinda dumb until I started reading them and realized - holy crap - of COURSE romance is awesome, because being in love is just about the best you will ever feel in your whole life.


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## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

LisaGloria said:


> Maybe? Probably more? What's your point?


$60 million is a lot of money.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Quiss said:


> I'm not sure at what point I dissed romance. I know it's got a huge readership, which was my point. If we every hope to find trends and make useful comparisons, we need to look at things like genre and other things that appeal to similar readerships.


Maybe it would be better just to say, "I don't write romance, and I suspect that a lot of heavy KU users are romance readers, or erotica readers." Implying that anyone doing well is writing something dismissed as "billionaire vampire threesomes" seems like you're equating the romance genre with something you find trashy. At least that is how I took that.

Anyway. I do think that romance readers are more likely to be heavy borrowers. One solution I would think would be to have one series in KU and one out, if that's an option. Or if your genre doesn't seem like a good fit, as you say--maybe not worth it. For me, Countdown has been good also, and the 5 free days on a few of my books, because at other times I am earning on them. A number of reasons. But genres as you say differ.


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

MikeDavidson said:


> I get a sale here and there. Nothing worth bragging about


same here. not much action in the way of matchbook. i think that was a flawed paradigm, but what do i know? it felt 'ronco reek' to me - you know, 'buy my ebook now for only $X.99 and you can have this faaaaaahb-u-lus paperweight for only 99 cents'.  something good makes you lean forward and take notice.

the all star thing is an interesting addition to the game. things that make you go, hmmm.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

I'd agree with everybody who's making the point that most readers are looking for novel-length works, not shorts. The trouble arises when folks think that a borrow is just a sale that pays $1.51, when they could've just as easily had the full royalty on a $4.99 or $5.99 title instead. For some reason that turns into the logic that it's better to put a $0.99 short that nobody wants into KU, instead of a $5.99 novel that would look like a fantastic value to borrowers.

I feel pretty sure that's all wrong. Some cannibalization is to be expected, and some cannibalization is fine. Borrows seem to be great for sales rank, so bring them on-I'd be happy to lure them with higher prices and novel-length work. If my platform on Amazon is stronger, if my mailing list grows, if my readership and brand as an author is stronger for it, then it becomes easier and easier to overlook the borrow royalties.

Borrows are up over the past month. I don't get the sense that readers are leaving KU, even if it's true that authors are. The more novels that flee, the more visibility novelists stand to gain from participating.



VEVO said:


> $60 million is a lot of money.


Cool.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Except a borrow IS a sale at a substantial price cut.

You are providing exclusive (unless you're of the favored class) content to Amazon that they then offer in their subscription service for less than you would charge a customer direct. That's the system.

You're providing a massive discount to be part of a special promotion. The question is whether you feel that the promotion is worth the price you pay, same as any other paid promo. The only difference is, the price you'll end up paying is black boxed until a month after the fact AND that due to math, the 'discount' for 99 cent books is actually a price hike.

People forget that we're the ones paying Amazon, not the other way around. We pay them a 30% commission for placement in their store, and we pay them whatever the difference is between our royalty and whatever the hell Amazon wants if we want in KU.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

VEVO said:


> Is it safe to say that Amazon might be paying out $50-60 million a year to KDP Select? Or is it still too early to say?


Way, way too early. KU will still have a large number of free trial users as not everyone would have joined straight away (e.g., they waited for their month at Scribd to run out). How much Amazon has to add to the pot is dependant on how much is borrowed, which in turn is dependant on how many are subscribed into KU or on free trials.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

One reader's experience isn't much, I know, but I signed up for KU thinking I'd cancel before my free 30 days were up. I didn't. Now I'm paying and quite happily. I've found several mystery series and read one after another. They are all new-to-me authors and I wouldn't have found or tried any of them if I weren't searching specifically for KU books.

One had the first books of the series in KU, then the next in the series was $3.99, and I bought it. Another couple were in KU and then the most recent are not. They're priced at $9.99, and that's the end of that series for me. So I got hooked on the KU books, was willing to pay $3.99 for more and unwilling to pay $9.99.

I also read historical romance and have had much less luck there. Some very good authors' old books are in KU, but they show their age in the purplish prose and story lines and so far none have hooked me. So I've read a few romances but nothing like as many as I would if I could find ones that I really liked.

My own newest Western historical romance is in KU. It's priced at $4.99 and sales and borrows are running neck and neck. I have no sense that borrows are cannibalizing sales. First month sales for this book are better than anything I've published since 2010 and with the higher price I expected fewer sales and hoped for more borrows. What I'm seeing makes me suspect sales are from the same people who have bought my books before and borrows, at least in the majority, from new readers. Maybe I'm wrong and I'd have twice as many sales without KU, but I'll never know, and the way I look at it, if you average what I get from a borrow and what I get from a sale, I'm still getting more per sale than I would from nothing but sales at $2.99.

I also have one short story in KU. It's more than 4 years old and is obviously going to earn more this month than it did years ago in its best month, which was 127 sales. At $.99 that brought in $44.45. Here we are at the 15th and it's already at the $40 mark between sales (which are better than they've been for a year) and borrows.

So maybe KU is a terrible thing, but my enthusiasm for it as a reader is leading me to experiment with it for my books. I've pulled one of my older novels away from other vendors through Smashwords, and as soon as it's clear am going to try it in KU and see what happens. If it's like the short story, maybe it will find new readers.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Melly Mack said:


> Here's another wrinkle though. What if Amazon decides to put ALL KDP into KU. Then the choice becomes whether to exit Amazon entirely, and how many indies could afford to do that? There would be a ton of outrage, but Amazon has shown in the past a willingness to make unpopular moves, such as dumping affiliates in certain states to avoid pay taxes, and the huge ACX royalty cut (which didn't generate even much criticism, seems to me).


If you didn't have to be in Select to be in KU, I would be a lot more willing to try it out, especially for shorter works that I've really begun to enjoy writing a lot more. If Amazon gives indies the ability to opt-in without exclusivity, I'll be there in a hot minute with some of the upcoming serials I'm working on.


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I don't write vampire threesomes, and nor do I write billionaires. My WIP deals with sexual assault on college campuses, which I feel is pretty important. I think my books are just as "real" as fantasy or science fiction. There's been a lot of dissing of romance on here lately. Well--always and everywhere. What makes romance less worthy? I'd submit that it's because it is primarily read by women. I'd ask woman authors to think about that for a minute. It does offend me, and I'm not easily offended.


You're spot on here. The treatment of romance as a genre, the history behind that treatment is fairly obvious and well documented. I mean people don't exactly go out of their way to hide their contempt of it here. You've stuck it out a lot long than a lot of best-selling romance authors have.

Maybe one day Nora Roberts will get name-checked along with Stephen King and James Patterson on a regular basis... but certainly not yet!


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## Sassafrazzled (Mar 14, 2010)

ellenoc said:


> One reader's experience isn't much, I know, but I signed up for KU thinking I'd cancel before my free 30 days were up. I didn't. Now I'm paying and quite happily. I've found several mystery series and read one after another. They are all new-to-me authors and I wouldn't have found or tried any of them if I weren't searching specifically for KU books.


It's not just you. I'm very happy with my 9.99 a month because it's so easy to filter for KU only books on my kindle. Readers who are looking for specific authors and titles are most likely better off going for the other subscription services, but for those of us who enjoy being able to type in almost any search possible and then get a list of things we can impulse read for "free", it's wonderful. As an author I'm about half in, half out. It's a good fit for some things and not for others.


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

Molly Tomorrow said:


> You're spot on here. The treatment of romance as a genre, the history behind that treatment is fairly obvious and well documented. I mean people don't exactly go out of their way to hide their contempt of it here. You've stuck it out a lot long than a lot of best-selling romance authors have.
> 
> Maybe one day Nora Roberts will get name-checked along with Stephen King and James Patterson on a regular basis... but certainly not yet!


Amen, Molly.

I am working on a paranormal romance right now - my first ever - and believe me, it is darned hard work.

(might get more done if I got the heck out of kboards this morning.  )


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

H.M. Ward said:


> same here. not much action in the way of matchbook. i think that was a flawed paradigm, but what do i know? it felt 'ronco reek' to me - you know, 'buy my ebook now for only $X.99 and you can have this faaaaaahb-u-lus paperweight for only 99 cents'.  something good makes you lean forward and take notice.
> 
> the all star thing is an interesting addition to the game. things that make you go, hmmm.


Actually, the program is that if you buy the paper book you get the kindle book at a discount. And it works for books bought previously. I have about 40 that I've bought over the last 15+ years that I could get the kindle book at a discount if I wanted. But, I agree it's not a program Amazon promotes to customers much.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Actually, the program is that if you buy the paper book you get the kindle book at a discount. And it works for books bought previously. I have about 40 that I've bought over the last 15+ years that I could get the kindle book at a discount if I wanted. But, I agree it's not a program Amazon promotes to customers much.


They don't. Some friends of mine told me they were debating whether to buy my books in print or digital since they want the print editions for their bookcases but they also do a lot more e-reading these days. They were completely unaware that if they buy my books in print, I've set the Matchbook price as free.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

KU math can be fairly simple (I mean, it's not WHALE math or anything)

Say you spent a few months/years experimenting to find the sweet spot for your books. That price turns out to be $4.99. That gives you a profit of $3.50 per book. Let's say you do well at that price point for a year or so and you now have good data to compare things to. You make 70% of your profits at Amazon and 25% on other channels. . (Kobo, B&n, Google, etc)

Then you enroll your books in KU. Doing so requires that you give up that 25% of your profits that you were making on those other channels.

Sales drop by X or plateau and borrows go up by Y. You do the math and determine that it now takes 2.25 borrows to equal a sale. Then you have to figure in the lost income from the other channels. More math, and now you're up to 3+ borrows to make up for every lost sale.

Are most of us selling at $4.99 or up making 3+ borrows for every lost sale? 

I see a bunch of people saying that their sales have not gone down with KU, so therefore how can it be hurting them? Um...Okay? Is that really your goal? Plateaued sales and a small fraction of your normal margin for a borrow? Name one other business where this is considered good. If sales are not INCREASING then something, most likely KU, is countering that. 

But...the exposure! See Harlen Ellison for that. 

This came out snarky and that wasn't my intention so forgive me if I inadvertently picked on something someone said. But my numbers just don't support being in KU. If I want to target that channel in the future it will be with a serial novel and priced at .99. Nothing over $2.99 will enter the gate. If the payout stays at $1.50 then I have to go with the earlier prediction that KU will become short-stories, new releases, and Amazon imprints in six months.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Perry Constantine said:


> They don't. Some friends of mine told me they were debating whether to buy my books in print or digital since they want the print editions for their bookcases but they also do a lot more e-reading these days. They were completely unaware that if they buy my books in print, I've set the Matchbook price as free.


It is on the paperback page if there's a kindle matchbook available, and includes the price. Used to be in the center right under the basic info next to 'look inside'. Now it's on the right side just below the purchase options. Not as prominent as it used to be.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I've ha a couple Matchbook putchases for my novel since it released in September. 

Rue


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

I've had some Matchbook purchases.

It's probably doubled my print sales.

That ain't saying much though.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Drew Smith said:


> I am trying to understand this logic, so I hope you can explain it to me. What proof -- besides the opinion of a couple of readers that hang out here -- do we have that readers want novels in KU rather than short stories?
> 
> I can see your logic for the KOLL program. The reader only gets to borrow one book a month. So it would make sense that they would look for a 3,287 page saga that will entertain them for three weeks instead of a $0.99 short story they will finish in an hour. Your argument makes perfect sense for this program. If KOLL members want to get the best bang for their buck, they'd likely borrow either the longest book they can find that looks interesting or a high-priced book by a favorite author.
> 
> ...


I agree with Dolphin's original point. When I look at contemp rom or rom suspense, my genres, novels completely dominate the KU bestseller list. Possibly because that is what that genre's readers prefer. I do suspect that one reason I've done so well with KU is because I write full books. Bottom line: my type of reader prefers a full novel. (I write around 100k.) Erotic romance, paranormal romance, and erotica, I suspect, are different.

Also: for many readers, price is still a signal of quality and bestseller status. I price the same as Montlake and as most other bestselling indie romance authors. Again, if you look at the first KU screens in my genre, they're mostly priced higher. Because that is where good-selling authors price. And yes, I think readers perceive getting those books in their subscription as a bargain. That is after all the reason for the All-Stars program--to keep authors in who could otherwise sell elsewhere at a higher price.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

I have a short story (5300+ words) that had a few borrows in early September before I pulled it out of Select. I intended to publish broadly around the first of November because it is a Christmas theme. I'm having second thoughts about that strategy, especially since I don't do very well in other markets. Perhaps the borrows from KU would outperform sales on other platforms. Had the payout rate been higher, it would have been an easy decision. However, even at $1.52, the borrow payment far exceeds its sale royalty of thirty-five cents.

Part of my reasoning was that I would put the third book of my series into KU when I publish in about a month. Now, I've decided that's not such a good idea and it should be out there alongside the first two at regular price on all platforms. I'm scratching my head here.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Except a borrow IS a sale at a substantial price cut.
> 
> You are providing exclusive (unless you're of the favored class) content to Amazon that they then offer in their subscription service for less than you would charge a customer direct. That's the system.
> 
> ...


Holy Apparition, Batman. I actually agree with Vaal on this one.

Personally, I am less than thrilled with having a permanent discount on my titles. It is certainly making me rethink my strategy, but that's typical. The only thing that stays the same in self-publishing is that it is constantly changing.

ETA: Re-thinking doesn't mean panic or necessarily taking my novels out. This Sept. in the US I made total 400 sales fewer than I did last September. Before KU came out my sales had been up about 10% this year over last year. So I am estimating that I lost about 440 sales to cannibilization and the rest never would have been sales. That has me doing just very slightly better than breaking even on borrows. As I have said repeatedly, this isn't an emotional issue for me, but what does best in a business sense. And at the moment, I'm still holding off and letting things settle BUT if the payout drops even further, I will have to assume I am losing money on borrows.


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## m.a. petterson (Sep 11, 2013)

Genre and price matter.

My nonfiction book at $8.95 will hit multiple platforms as soon as KU expires. I have enough data for comparison.

Plus I'll be selling on my website again.

Hey, if I'm wrong I'll be back in six months.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> ETA: Re-thinking doesn't mean panic or necessarily taking my novels out. This Sept. in the US I made total 400 sales fewer than I did last September. Before KU came out my sales had been up about 10% this year over last year. So I am estimating that I lost about 440 sales to cannibilization and the rest never would have been sales. That has me doing just very slightly better than breaking even on borrows. As I have said repeatedly, this isn't an emotional issue for me, but what does best in a business sense. And at the moment, I'm still holding off and letting things settle BUT if the payout drops even further, I will have to assume I am losing money on borrows.


How much money would you lose if you dropped out of KDPS? KU doesn't exist in isolation here. My sense is that in part because of the weighting of borrows and perhaps in part because of benefits to KDPS itself, you may be more visible just by dint of participating.

The upshot is that the advent of KU may simply turn out to be a bad thing for you when all's said and done. If you wind up underwater in KU and even further underwater if you withdraw, that's obviously bad news either way.

That would be super disappointing, but I'm not really interested in whether KU is a good thing or a bad thing, because I don't think Amazon's going to oblige us if we ask them to cancel it and revert to the way things were. Now that it's here, what do we do about it? Is it better to participate or abstain?



Rosalind James said:


> I agree with Dolphin's original point. When I look at contemp rom or rom suspense, my genres, novels completely dominate the KU bestseller list. Possibly because that is what that genre's readers prefer. I do suspect that one reason I've done so well with KU is because I write full books. Bottom line: my type of reader prefers a full novel. (I write around 100k.) Erotic romance, paranormal romance, and erotica, I suspect, are different.
> 
> Also: for many readers, price is still a signal of quality and bestseller status. I price the same as Montlake and as most other bestselling indie romance authors. Again, if you look at the first KU screens in my genre, they're mostly priced higher. Because that is where good-selling authors price. And yes, I think readers perceive getting those books in their subscription as a bargain. That is after all the reason for the All-Stars program--to keep authors in who could otherwise sell elsewhere at a higher price.


Right, I think this is it. I think that in many genres, readers simply don't want shorts at any price. Beyond that, I think that readers view price as a signal of quality. Of course it's not the only indicator of quality. That's self-evident. Ask anybody in marketing whether it's a factor, and I don't think anybody's going to tell you it's not.

What makes more sense from Amazon's perspective: borrow this $0.99 short for free when you join KU, or borrow this $5.99 novel for free when you join KU? This isn't Costco. Amazon sells discrete items, not bulk. When you're looking at those individual items, it's very easy for a reader to compare $0.99 vs. $5.99 and much more difficult for a reader to compare the unit price per reading hour.

Your argument, Drew, depends on folks doing that math. It's hard enough in the grocery store, when you've got labeling that shows price per ounce. Amazon doesn't make that sort of comparison easy for readers (seriously, just think of all of the negative reviews on shorts complaining that it "was too short"). I doubt many of them are doing it.

Certainly there will be some users who want shorts. In fact, KU in its current state may be made up _primarily_ of people who want shorts! Most of us have always found that readers prefer novel-length work, however, and it follows that availability of novel-length work could be an important draw for KU. All I'm saying is that I expect there's a niche for higher-priced novels in KU. If this is true, you have to be especially careful when you're thinking about borrows as lost sales, because by that logic, you'd _lose money_ if you increased your prices from $4.99 to $5.99 and your borrows, readership, and even total royalties increased.

There's way too much focus on royalties per unit in these discussions and way too little focus on readers. There's a lot of things that are far more important than individual royalties--starting with recruiting and retaining readers. I'd be more than happy to put novels in KU and take a hit on royalties if it serves that end.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

I've just spent that last few weeks re-watching Supernatural on Netflix. One right after the other. It's been frickin awesome. Nom nom nom Sam and Dean.

So yeah, lots of people maybe like shorts in books too.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Man, Dolphin, you're speakin' my language. Yep. Yep. What the dolphin said. *Nods vigorously like a ... Well, like a dolphin.*


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

LisaGloria said:


> I've just spent that last few weeks re-watching Supernatural on Netflix. One right after the other. It's been frickin awesome. Nom nom nom Sam and Dean.
> 
> So yeah, lots of people maybe like shorts in books too.


Depends on genre. Paranormal, erotic romance, NA, bet you're right. Contemp, rom suspense? Not as much. (Historical--maybe. Seems like I see a lot of category-length historicals, like 60k.) Like everything to do with pricing--good to study your genre. Can't generalize across genres or even subgenres. You just can't.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Before KU, publishing short length serials was profitable but risky. There was a one star hate brigade that actively targeted serials with cliffhangers for ripping people off. Now, that has become a non-issue. We are now able to see how much people actually love shorts. The hate brigade has taken a break and short serials are thriving.  

I've always enjoyed writing serials more than novels. KU takes all the risk out of producing them. It allows authors to make money and for readers to not feel cheated.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Drew Smith said:


> Which could explain why Amazon just set up an entire new program designed to help people find shorts and chose them based on length. Doesn't seem like they would have taken the time if only a few people cared about shorts, does it?


I totally agree. I think I brought this up when KU launched too... Short fiction had nowhere to go as print magazines died. Hooray! It's back!


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Drew Smith said:


> Which could explain why Amazon just set up an entire new program designed to help people find shorts and chose them based on length. Doesn't seem like they would have taken the time if only a few people cared about shorts, does it?


A lot of people do care about shorts. Nobody's said anything to the contrary.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> A lot of people do care about shorts. Nobody's said anything to the contrary.


Agreed. I read a lot of short stories. I prefer them to full length novels, with a few exceptions: mysteries and thrillers. Those are the two genres I will read full length novels in, and am actually starting to shy away from the short mysteries/thrillers because I have found they are often not fully fleshed out.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Yay for short stories!  

Rue


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

A borrow, pre-KU, used to be around $2.00.

A borrow, post-KU, is around $1.52 in September.

A lot of folks are saying they'll now pull longer works from KU.

Hmmm.

A $3.99 title like my new release today, The Woodsman, earns a $2.79 payment, minus a couple cents for delivery costs.

A $0.48 difference between $2.00 and $1.52 is not that big a difference to me, speaking personally.

I even noticed some people say they had hoped it would be $1.70, but since it's $1.52, that's a point of separation for them.

That's only an $0.18 difference.

We all have our breaking points, I guess.

But I still sell books and have books borrowed, so at this point I'm not too worried.

Would I appreciate the $2.00 better than the $1.52? Sure. Who wouldn't?

But I haven't reached my breaking point yet. 

It also helps that I don't make much elsewhere, nowhere near what I make at Amazon. So I guess it's all about what you're giving up to be exclusive, too. I'm not giving up much.


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## nightfire (Mar 22, 2012)

People will borrow a book and read it that they wouldn't buy.  You gain a reader and some $ by being where someone would not have paid.  Now maybe they liked your book enough to start recommending it to others.  *Maybe* they liked it enough to actually buy it AFTER they borrowed it.  I can see myself doing that as a reader. If I like a book I borrow from the library, I will go buy it. 

Write quality, whatever your genre and KU will help you get found in the overwhelming sea of indie books.

Will I take a buck fifty for a borrow from someone that wouldn't have taken a chance on it otherwise?  Yup.  All day long.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Drew Smith said:


> I guess I misunderstood you earlier?


Yes, I think so, and I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. Some shorts _are_ unwanted. Not all of them, certainly, but in some genres they just don't do well. They're things that your fans might pick up if they're in KU simply because they're there, and they've already finished reading your novels, but they don't do well in isolation. SFF, contemporary romance, mystery, and many others just don't have high demand for shorts.

What I'm trying to push back on is this idea that shorts earn money in KU and novels don't. That's silly. If your $0.99 short isn't from a short-centric genre and doesn't have an audience, it won't earn. Drop a $5.99 novel in and I'll bet it earns more, as long as you're not hung up on the idea that you're losing money each time someone reads your book. The royalties per unit aren't the most important consideration-first ask whether there's an audience.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> The royalties per unit aren't the most important consideration--first ask whether there's an audience.


I see KU as an opportunity to reach readers I may not otherwise reach so I can start building a reader base. I may not make as much on a full length book in KU, but if I can use KU to establish a large reader base, then those people will buy the books I don't enroll in Select. I look at it as a foot in the door and an opportunity to establish myself. The fact that I'm getting paid to do that, no matter the amount, is icing on the cake.

Edited for typo


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> Yes, I think so, and I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. Some shorts _are_ unwanted. Not all of them, certainly, but in some genres they just don't do well. They're things that your fans might pick up if they're in KU simply because they're there, and they've already finished reading your novels, but they don't do well in isolation. SFF, contemporary romance, mystery, and many others just don't have high demand for shorts.
> 
> What I'm trying to push back on is this idea that shorts earn money in KU and novels don't. That's silly. If your $0.99 short isn't from a short-centric genre and doesn't have an audience, it won't earn. Drop a $5.99 novel in and I'll bet it earns more, as long as you're not hung up on the idea that you're losing money each time someone reads your book. The royalties per unit aren't the most important consideration--first ask whether there's an audience.


Actually, science fiction has a long history of accepting serialized work. Science fiction is one of the most accepting genres for serialized short fiction there is. Look at the SPP guys for example. That history goes way back before them. That fact that serials are working in romance, at all, is pretty mind boggling. Romance is a genre that wants everything tied up nicely in one little package. New adult and paranormal romance serialization are NEW trends.

Perhaps epic fantasy wouldn't do well with serialized fiction, but I have a feeling that more and more serials will show up in paranormal and urban. In fact, I have a feeling that there will be a boom of serialized fiction in ALL genres.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

Randall Wood said:


> KU math can be fairly simple (I mean, it's not WHALE math or anything)
> 
> Say you spent a few months/years experimenting to find the sweet spot for your books. That price turns out to be $4.99. That gives you a profit of $3.50 per book. Let's say you do well at that price point for a year or so and you now have good data to compare things to. You make 70% of your profits at Amazon and 25% on other channels. . (Kobo, B&n, Google, etc)
> 
> ...


Your math is sound for those who are making sales at other vendors. There's the issue of increased rankings due to borrows on Amazon, but that's sketchy science and we can't really know how it affects the overall sales.

But for those who are seeing more like 1% sales outside of Amazon, KU seems like a no-brainer. And I honestly believe it can vary not only by genre, but by book.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

judygoodwin said:


> Your math is sound for those who are making sales at other vendors. There's the issue of increased rankings due to borrows on Amazon, but that's sketchy science and we can't really know how it affects the overall sales.
> 
> But for those who are seeing more like 1% sales outside of Amazon, KU seems like a no-brainer. And I honestly believe it can vary not only by genre, but by book.


I don't see it as a no-brainer, I see it as an indicator that I need to take steps to increase sales on other platforms. (I can guarantee they won't grow if your books aren't available on them. Like, ever. )

The other thing KU stops you from doing is selling your books through your own website/platform. That's something NONE of the distributors want us to do!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I can't speak for anyone else but in Sept my sales did go down about 10% from the previous year although not in August. Is the drop because of KU? Who knows but along with the drop in borrow payout it has me watching things very, very closely.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

It's funny how people are talking about reaching readers they wouldn't otherwise... after signing on to a program that keeps them off of dozens of other sales channels. Channels that do pay you the royalty base don your set price.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Randall Wood said:


> The other thing KU stops you from doing is selling your books through your own website/platform. That's something NONE of the distributors want us to do!


It's worth paying Amazon to be sold on their site, and for their help in selling more books on their site, vs. selling on your site and keeping all of the proceeds. Sales you make on your own aren't going to help you any with the algos.

As for channels besides Amazon, many authors have tried that and found that they win over fewer readers outside of Amazon than they would've added on Amazon by being exclusive. 2,000 readers in Indiana is more than 1,500 readers worldwide. You don't get bonus points for diversity.

I'm all for folks who have readers on other platforms continuing to go wide if that's what makes sense for them. That usually takes considerable work to build up in the first place, and it doesn't necessarily result in having more readers than you would've had on Amazon, assuming equal or lesser investments to recruit readers.


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## Melly Mack (Jan 2, 2011)

Drew Smith said:


> Which could explain why Amazon just set up an entire new program designed to help people find shorts and chose them based on length. Doesn't seem like they would have taken the time if only a few people cared about shorts, does it?


+1


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> As for channels besides Amazon, many authors have tried that and found that they win over fewer readers outside of Amazon than they would've added on Amazon by being exclusive.


And many are doing quite well going wide, thank you.

Most of the 'many' who say they didn't gain traction often didn't stay wide very long / didn't put much if any emphasis on advertising and building an audience on other channels.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> It's funny how people are talking about reaching readers they wouldn't otherwise... after signing on to a program that keeps them off of dozens of other sales channels. Channels that do pay you the royalty base don your set price.


I'll use myself as an example. I real a lot of books. A LOT of books. I've never been to B&N's website. I've never been to Kobo--had never heard of it until I joined KBoards. I've never been to Apple's book site. I shop at Amazon and only Amazon.

I have a lot of books on my Wish List at Amazon. Some of them I will buy, some of them I'm still on the fence about. They look interesting but I have some questions regarding the quality. Because of those concerns, I'm not willing to buy them but I am willing to borrow them. If they turn out to be fantastic, I'll read the author's other books, too. And if I like the author enough, and their other books aren't available to borrow, I'll buy them, because once I find a writer I really like, I read everything they have available.

So, yes, you can reach readers you might not have, otherwise. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, KU can be a good loss leader to books not in Select.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

vlmain said:


> So, yes, you can reach readers you might not have, otherwise. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, KU can be a good loss leader to books not in Select.


Right, and reaching you is mutually exclusive with developing other platforms and finding all of those hard-to-reach, non-Amazon readers-at least for individual titles. It's an instructive user story.

Can't reach every reader no matter what we do, so it's a question of maximization. That'll lead some folks to go wide and lead some folks to go exclusive. That's just fine with me.


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## nightfire (Mar 22, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> It's funny how people are talking about reaching readers they wouldn't otherwise... after signing on to a program that keeps them off of dozens of other sales channels. Channels that do pay you the royalty base don your set price.


While there are many people that will make sales on the other platforms, those platforms do not have the reach and readership that Amazon does, like it or not. I only get books from Smashwords that authors I have gotten to know REALLY well publish there. I don't shop online at B/N, Kobo or iBooks. One reading app is enough for me. This is me speaking as a reader.

As a *reader* think about how you buy/consume/borrow/read books. Then develop a marketing plan that is comfortable for you. Any one way isn't right for everyone.

As an *author* I am restricted to having most of my books at Amazon only because of file size limitations at other channels. If I want to sell my books anywhere else I need to reduce the size so the books would literally be different editions. I have not taken the time to do that yet because I don't see it as an efficient use of my time right now. The first channel I will explore is going to be iBooks. However that will be a dedicated version just for them and my current books will still be in Select.

If you have an audience and time to go wide, then that is great - go for it


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> Can't reach every reader no matter what we do, so it's a question of maximization.


Absolutely. To me, KU is not the means by which we sell books. It is simply another tool in our book marketing toolbox. 
It does not have to be an all or nothing proposition.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

vlmain said:


> I'll use myself as an example. I real a lot of books. A LOT of books. I've never been to B&N's website. I've never been to Kobo--had never heard of it until I joined KBoards. I've never been to Apple's book site. I shop at Amazon and only Amazon.





nightfire said:


> While there are many people that will make sales on the other platforms, those platforms do not have the reach and readership that Amazon does, like it or not. I only get books from Smashwords that authors I have gotten to know REALLY well publish there. I don't shop online at B/N, Kobo or iBooks. One reading app is enough for me. This is me speaking as a reader.


I think you're both proving the importance of being on multiple platforms. You both said as readers you use Amazon and only Amazon. So wouldn't it stand to reason that there are people on iBooks, on Kobo, on Nook, on Google, who use _those_ platforms exclusively? Sure, they probably don't have as many people as Amazon does, but being on those other platforms doesn't prevent you from reaching more readers on Amazon. But being in Select _does_ prevent you from reaching any readers on those other platforms. And more importantly, increased competition among these retailers is good for self-published authors, because it forces them to compete for our business. I shudder to think of what the royalty rates will look like if Amazon takes out all their competition.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

I'll agree that KU should be viewed as a marketing tool more than a revenue stream. I compare it to the bargain bin myself and certainly don't feel it's worth pulling your books from everywhere else (and dropping your profit margin to a fraction of a sale)

I think there's a lack of long-term thinking among a lot of indie authors. Everyone has, or should have, an end goal in mind and they are looking for the best way to get there. If you want to get there by only playing to the Amazon algo's and doing a constant spike and fade with your sales, then by all means do so. If you want a steady increase of sales across all platforms then you need to be everywhere books are sold.

Nothing says that you can't have both either. I'm planning a serial after my next novel and its designed _specifically for KU._ My full-length novels just don't fit into the pricing model that KU offers, so I'll adapt. But gearing your entire marketing plan around the Amazon algo's just screams wrong to me. You are basically dancing to whatever music they decide to play. From a strictly business viewpoint it's just not a sound decision.

But to each their own.

Also, what Perry said.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

You could say "KU got me the exposure and revenue I needed to promote my books effectively," or "I opted out of Amazon's promo product because wider distribution promoted my books more effectively." Neither of those should cause anybody to go all snark attack.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> And many are doing quite well going wide, thank you.
> 
> Most of the 'many' who say they didn't gain traction often didn't stay wide very long / didn't put much if any emphasis on advertising and building an audience on other channels.


No one ever said that many (some...whatever) aren't doing well. But you can't speak for the rest of us.

I had my novels on multiple channels for approximately two years. Is that 'not long' for you? And I put as much emphasis on advertising and building an audience there as on Amazon such as including them in my Bookbub ads, having links on my website, etc. I never got traction there and made more money when early this year when I switched back to Select.

Thank You.

Do not pretend that you know what the rest of us did.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Perry Constantine said:


> I think you're both proving the importance of being on multiple platforms. You both said as readers you use Amazon and only Amazon. So wouldn't it stand to reason that there are people on iBooks, on Kobo, on Nook, on Google, who use _those_ platforms exclusively?


Absolutely. We're in agreement. I wasn't suggesting going exclusively Select with everything. I was responding to Vaal's earlier comment criticizing the notion that KU allows us to reach people we might not otherwise. I was showing one example of how it can do just that, and then gave an example of how having a title in Select can lead a reader to other titles not in Select.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Perry Constantine said:


> Sure, they probably don't have as many people as Amazon does, but being on those other platforms doesn't prevent you from reaching more readers on Amazon.


Yes, it does. Borrows count for sales rank. Merely participating in KDPS may count towards your sales rank. Your visibility is very likely to be higher if you are in KDPS, vs. if you are not. You are necessarily leaving Amazon readers on the table if you go wide.



Perry Constantine said:


> And more importantly, increased competition among these retailers is good for self-published authors, because it forces them to compete for our business. I shudder to think of what the royalty rates will look like if Amazon takes out all their competition.


If you're on every platform, then nobody is competing for your business.



Randall Wood said:


> I think there's a lack of long-term thinking among a lot of indie authors. Everyone has, or should have, an end goal in mind and they are looking for the best way to get there. If you want to get there by only playing to the Amazon algo's and doing a constant spike and fade with your sales, then by all means do so. If you want a steady increase of sales across all platforms then you need to be everywhere books are sold.


I'm just not convinced that anybody but Amazon is going to exist in the long term. That's my main concern. I'm not eager to invest in visibility on Kobo and B&N when I'm not certain they'll exist a year from now, two years from now. When I think about that, I wonder how much stronger I could make my platform on Amazon in the meantime, and how much better that would be for the business if Amazon is the last one standing. As it is, increasing your share of the Amazon market certainly goes further than a comparable increase in your share of a smaller market (and they're all smaller).

Very different types of risk, really. Not surprising that folks would disagree about how to manage it.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Dolphin said:


> I'm just not convinced that anybody but Amazon is going to exist in the long term. That's my main concern. I'm not eager to invest in visibility on Kobo and B&N when I'm not certain they'll exist a year from now, two years from now. When I think about that, I wonder how much stronger I could make my platform on Amazon in the meantime, and how much better that would be for the business if Amazon is the last one standing. As it is, increasing your share of the Amazon market certainly goes further than a comparable increase in your share of a smaller market (and they're all smaller).
> 
> Very different types of risk, really. Not surprising that folks would disagree about how to manage it.


But don't you see that by focusing only on Amazon, you're contributing to a self-fulfilling prophecy of Amazon being the only one existing.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Perry Constantine said:


> But don't you see that by focusing only on Amazon, you're contributing to a self-fulfilling prophecy of Amazon being the only one existing.


Maybe in some very, very small way. I doubt indies are going to make or break the fates of Kobo, or B&N, or anybody else.

Other than existing and having some smaller subset of loyal customers who are exclusive to their stores, what have they done to earn my business? Amazon is offering special benefits for exclusivity. I don't see anybody competing effectively. Rather, I hear story after story about how difficult it is to build your platform, how finicky Apple is about reviewing titles, how unreliable Kobo is at paying out royalties, how close B&N is to shuttering all of their operations for good, how using aggregators to save time on wide distribution will worsen your rankings, &c.

I'm not saying competition doesn't work. The way it works, though, is the little guy entices me somehow. Give me a reason not to do business exclusively with WalMart. It's not a competition if I go wide everywhere simply on principle.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

nightfire said:


> As a *reader* think about how you buy/consume/borrow/read books. Then develop a marketing plan that is comfortable for you. Any one way isn't right for everyone.


That is precisely what I do but it is tied in to being an author. I bought my first dedicated ereader (actually it wasn't it was a Nook HD so not a dedicated reader) last December a couple of weeks before publishing my first piece online. Once I returned to Blighty I bought Kindle and Kobo eInk readers. All three gadgets were bought because I was an author. I try to buy Kobo or Nook where I can because so many books are Kindle only and I want to encourage all three businesses that retail my publications (I also sell through and buy from Google Play).

Part of the reason that I buy Kobo or Nook versions is to encourage authors who list those retailers on their BookBub etc that not all sales are at Amazon. I left KU, but not over pay rates, but because the All Star promotion was badly thought out and I was missing being a seller as well as a buyer at Google, Nook, Scribd and Kobo. I might go into KU with another book at some stage, but I will try to buy across retailers and market that way too.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2014)

Dolphin said:


> It's worth paying Amazon to be sold on their site, and for their help in selling more books on their site, vs. selling on your site and keeping all of the proceeds. Sales you make on your own aren't going to help you any with the algos.


Algos? You mean the tiered pyramid system?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Dolphin said:


> Maybe in some very, very small way. I doubt indies are going to make or break the fates of Kobo, or B&N, or anybody else.
> 
> Other than existing and having some smaller subset of loyal customers who are exclusive to their stores, what have they done to earn my business? Amazon is offering special benefits for exclusivity. I don't see anybody competing effectively. Rather, I hear story after story about how difficult it is to build your platform, how finicky Apple is about reviewing titles, how unreliable Kobo is at paying out royalties, how close B&N is to shuttering all of their operations for good, how using aggregators to save time on wide distribution will worsen your rankings, &c.
> 
> I'm not saying competition doesn't work. The way it works, though, is the little guy entices me somehow. Give me a reason not to do business exclusively with WalMart. It's not a competition if I go wide everywhere simply on principle.


This. A thousand times this. Simply being "not Amazon" isn't good enough. Give me some reason to spend my time building custom epubs for your store rather than just uploading to Amazon. Kobo and Google still don't even have keyword metadata fields, for pity's sake. And then they complain when people keyword stuff because it's the only way at all to get noticed on their horribly broken sites. Apple requires that you have a Mac to upload to them. Barnes and Noble is so busy trying to offload the Nook that they don't seem to care at all anymore.

It's like they want everyone to throw up their hands in disgust and go exclusive with Amazon.


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## nightfire (Mar 22, 2012)

LisaGloria said:


> You could say "KU got me the exposure and revenue I needed to promote my books effectively," or "I opted out of Amazon's promo product because wider distribution promoted my books more effectively." Neither of those should cause anybody to go all snark attack.


+1


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> And many are doing quite well going wide, thank you.
> 
> Most of the 'many' who say they didn't gain traction often didn't stay wide very long / didn't put much if any emphasis on advertising and building an audience on other channels.


I had a crack, but between Smashwords' horrendously time consuming process and the books I had on other sites selling a grand total of Zero, I made a Pareto-related call that I would put all my effort into the 80 (which in my case, was the 100!)

I think this debate is at least partially genre-dependent. I write about 90% non-fiction which is notoriously tough to gain traction on other sites. If I were in one of the fiction genres popular on other sites, it may be a different call.

So far, KU have bumped my income by around 10-20%, however this could be severely impacted if the rate keeps dropping. However the KU payout rate will be just like Chinese inflation data - Amazon will keep the number exactly where they want it by massaging the pot total. If they are smart (which they are), they would have hired a good game theorist like Barry Nalebuff (or even any economist tbh) to map out, after a few months' worth of data is in, where the number needs to be to meet whatever internal objectives they have. For example, a KU payout of $4 would cause a deluge of low quality informational products (10 page guides etc) and 50c would see most people pull out, leaving, once again, 99c informational products.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

drno said:


> Algos? You mean the tiered pyramid system?


I found some new data on the pyramids algos, HTH:


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Give me some reason to spend my time building custom epubs for your store rather than just uploading to Amazon.


If you produce an epub that passes the publicly available validator, it'll pass pretty much anywhere but Smashwords's hyper-finicky one. I use the same file everywhere with no issues.



> Kobo and Google still don't even have keyword metadata fields, for pity's sake.


Google actually directly indexes your blurb. As in the whole thing is searchable.

And if we want to talka bout categorization shortcomings, even Google manages to give indie writers access to full BISAC categories. try getting into anything specific on Amazon without ending up doing more contortion than Catherine Zeta Jones in Entrapment.


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