# You're Not Going To Make A Living On 99 Cents



## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

*EDIT: This says don't make EVERYTHING free and 99 cents that you have. That's all it says. It doesn't say NEVER be 99 cents or NEVER be free. I've used both strategies short term in the past. * Bolding because people are missing this.

I am not posting this to start a controversy, but to correct what I'm seeing a ton of new authors doing. I am guessing they are operating on old information because there WAS a time when the advice was go 99 cents to sell a ton of copies.

That times is way, way, way OVER.

If you have more than one book permafree, why?!?!?! If you have more than one book that is 99 cents, why?!?!?!

Don't tell me it's page count etc. people pay $1.99 to $2.99 for a half hour episode of a TV show.

But this is what I'm seeing, authors with multiple books, some permafree, and then the others 99 cents. Then they start threads complaining about making a living at this. Get yourself out of the clearance bin, you don't have enough of a career yet to be in the clearance section!!! 

::headdesk::

The people who bought your book at THIS stage of your career bought it because they were interested in your book. Period. I sell a neat 1,000 books a month and *I* don't even think I'm selling enough to warrant a 99 cent sale. Why? Because not enough people even know I exist.

Three years ago, the 99 cent price worked for unknown authors BECAUSE it was a novelty. It's not a novelty anymore. Start pricing yourself so that those 5 or 10 or 20 sales you're seeing each month add up. Whatever you sell per month, you need to be a price point that beats that $10 threshold for a payment. And I mean it! 

Unless you are selling SIX TIMES the volume at 99 cents than you would at $2.99 or higher, it's not doing you any favors. And if your book is already in KU as well, well if they really don't want to pay retail price for the story, then they can borrow it.

I say this with love and compassion. Six months ago I too only sold 2 or 3 copies a month. From February 2013 until June of 2014, I sold 64 total copies of my single book. But I earned $135 doing that, at 99 cents I would NOT have sold more (I know, I tried that price point many times), and would have made $22. One of those totals pays for web hosting for an entire year with change left over. The other won't even pay for a movie ticket and a bucket of popcorn where I live.

If you're here on Kboards, you're an author who is always learning. You have my unequivocal respect. I say you are worth more than free and 99 cents.


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

+1


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I have more than one book free because they're all first books of series. Believe it or not, it works. It's all very well berating people for having freebies when you're selling a ton. Good on ya. Really, you've obviously found a market. But you're not me, and if I don't have the freebies, I sell F-all. So the choice isn't so hard, isn't it? I would VERY MUCH PREFER not to have the freebies, but it just doesn't work like that. I can go all huffy and put prices back up with an "I'm worth more than that" attitude, but that attitude still sells me F-all in books. So there is that.

I'm a nobody and a prawn. I have to give stuff for free or people don't buy. Now that could mean my work sucks or whatever. The SFWA and those sales that qualified me obviously didn't think so. Or it could be a thing of visibility. I prefer the latter. I'm not complaining about sales. I would like to sell more and I'm doing stuff *I* found works for selling more.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Astute observation, E.A.! Agree with you wholeheartedly.

What about short stories that run anywhere from 7 to 12 pages, though?

But you're right. Especially if you're uploading to vendors through an intermediary.
Vendor gets his cut, the intermediary get theirs––and the author/creator of the
product is lucky if he/she ends up with 20 'pesos.'


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## Lefevre (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks for the post.

"Market" advice is different for each genre. What "works" in romance writing may not in science fiction or other genres. The lower priced "funnel" book can be an effective strategy for the right series.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

It wasn't long before we had the first "you're doing it wrong; do it my way" thread of the year, was it?


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Sometimes free and 99 cents are about building audience and newsletter lists for future releases. Sometimes more than one book free is a strategy to sell an unrelated series. It also could be balls out marketing to see what happens. 

Sometimes people have a plan.

My only advice is to know why you're doing something. Have a plan and a desired outcome. If the plan isn't working, try something else.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I never did think I'd earn a living at 99 cents. I do it because combining that with free days I'm building up my mailing list so I can charge more in the future. I don't consider myself an author who isn't worth more. I'm just at a stage where I'm concentrating on attracting my readers. I actually did try 2.99. I went a month without a single sale, so it didn't work for me. That doesn't mean it won't eventually.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I didn't say don't be free at all. I didn't say don't use 99 cents at all. I said stop making it the ONLY thing you do. 

You have books that are higher priced. You don't have the first book in the series free and then all the rest 99 cents. *I* still think you're holding onto the last gasps of what was working before (permafree) but that's my opinion. You have to do what works for you. But you and I both agree making the first one free and all the rest of the novels in the series 99 cents is not a strong long-term plan.

As far as short stories go, the answer is it depends. How long does it take to write the short story, would it earn me more on my blog with Adsense and shared on a regular basis to social media, etc. Some content won't fit, but novellas certainly should and can be priced higher.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> I never did think I'd earn a living at 99 cents. I do it because combining that with free days I'm building up my mailing list so I can charge more in the future. I don't consider myself an author who isn't worth more. I'm just at a stage where I'm concentrating on attracting my readers. I actually did try 2.99. I went a month without a single sale, so it didn't work for me. That doesn't mean it won't eventually.


This a thousand times.

I have a plan, and I'm sticking to it, no matter what the naysayers say.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> Sometimes free and 99 cents are about building audience and newsletter lists for future releases. Sometimes more than one book free is a strategy to sell an unrelated series. It also could be balls out marketing to see what happens.
> 
> Sometimes people have a plan.
> 
> My only advice is to know why you're doing something. Have a plan and a desired outcome. If the plan isn't working, try something else.


This. Think about what you're doing and why, then adjust.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Deanna Chase said:


> Sometimes free and 99 cents are about building audience and newsletter lists for future releases. Sometimes more than one book free is a strategy to sell an unrelated series. It also could be balls out marketing to see what happens.
> 
> Sometimes people have a plan.
> 
> My only advice is to know why you're doing something. Have a plan and a desired outcome. If the plan isn't working, try something else.


Wow, I need to pay attention to that warning that someone else posted while you were typing. We said basically the same thing.


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I have one perma free and one novella at .99, which I consider a gift to my readers. You don't really need it to go forward with the series, it's just a fun extra. I made six figures this year so it's still working for me.
And honestly, when I get three or four in my new series, if the market is still like todays I'm permafreeing the first in that one too. It's easier to advertise, you get a boatload of downloads (thousands vs tens or hundreds), which ups your sell-through.

Things could be different in six months, but then I'll rethink if they are. But, the number one reason I don't buy a new author, and I click on a lot of links from this board (especially when they post thinking they're failures, I'll think about giving them a try and a tiny boost in rank) but when I see their book at 4.99 and up, I click away. 
.99 would have been a sale for sure, and 2.99 if I'd liked the blurb even a little. I make okay money but I'm frugal and only spend that kind of fun money on a tried and true.
This is just a difference of opinion, so all newbies don't overprice and then think they're failures when two people buy their books in a month.

Lower prices and permafrees as lead ins or to get mailing list signups and a larger readership still work. When you have a following, for sure raise your prices. I raised mine to 3.99 this year, which is what my genre allows.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

Elizabeth has given her books for free, she's had free runs. I get mad at her every time she does a 99 cent promo, you don't want to know my thoughts if she even brings up free. There isn't a nicer person you could meet and I've known her for over 3 years. I give her he ll a lot as a business partner and even then she has never "berated" me. I have never seen her "berate" anyone. She is so nice sometimes I want her to go off just once. She's had this attitude about 99 cents and free BEFORE finding her niche with her recent JAFF books, so it isn't a matter of berating others. Her mind works like a wizard mathematician. She sees the money lost when she sells for 99 cents vs. a higher price point. She also knows that not every free download is opened or read. When she gives a free book to a reader who actually wants to read her work it goes a lot further in building her audience the way she wants to build it.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

There is not a single author making a living on ALL 99 cent priced stuff. But I've seen six different signatures today with multiple books in there all at 99 cents complaining about how they're not making money. 

And there is a ton of blog posts and dated "sell ebooks" books out there that is running off of data from 2011, 2012. Even the people who have commented here, most of you have been around since I have been, but you didn't reboot a publishing career this past year. So while you keep telling everyone else to do it the way of 2012 or 2013, they're stuck in 2015 where there is 4 times the number of the ebooks in the Kindle Store from when WE started.

Of course everyone can do what they want, but as someone who felt physically ill pricing my novel in the nosebleed section this year and then watching it sell, I know there are far more out there who need to hear it's OK to price higher than the few authors who want to hold onto their permafree and 99 cents marketing plans from days ago.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I think Elizabeth is channeling the Quiss I remember from 2012.  

I'm really happy that she found an under-served niche where she can charge more money.

The thing is, most books cannot gain any visibility without promotion, and the good promotion sites all want free or 99-cent deals. I sold F-all, too, before I made the first in my series free and promoted it. 99-cent Kindle Countdown sales gain my stand-alones visibility if promoted, too.

That said, my New Year's Resolution is to release something every month in an under-served genre and see how that works instead of constantly promoting.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2015)

At the moment I have a pen name with several romantic shorts averaging 10000 words in KU. They're all 99 cents.

I get more than twice as many borrows as I do sales. I make money from the borrows. 

The reason I don't price at 2.99 is because that will cause one star reviews. The reason I don't write novella length 2.99 books is because in my experience it is easier to get people to borrow a 10000 word book than to get someone to buy a 2.99 novella. 

Pricing at 99 cents also means more sales than 2.99. More sales equals more visibility which equals more sales which equals more visibility.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> If you have more than one book permafree, why?!?!?! If you have more than one book that is 99 cents, why?!?!?!


[wry tone] My freebies are for different series/styles altogether, and most of them are short stories. 

I'm actually not planning to leave my currently-free novel free forever. I'm just testing it out. *shrug* We'll see what happens.

I also sometimes run $0.99 sales (experimenting with sale efficacy and duration), but in general, if one of my titles is that price, it's a short story.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

I promote indie authors that sell at 2.99 and up, not very many at the 99 cent level and only 3 freebies per day for my readers who want free books. I do also give my Christian readers 3 freebies per day but that goes out on a different page.  I try to go for freebies who aren't promoted elsewhere for my regular page, they obviously need the help a little more than those paying big money for promotion. But I guess it doesn't matter since I am not in that vaunted list of "good" promotion sites.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> I didn't say don't be free at all. I didn't say don't use 99 cents at all. I said stop making it the ONLY thing you do.


No, but you DID say this:



> If you have more than one book permafree, why?!?!?!


And Patti answered you why. It STILL makes perfect sense to make the first book of a series FREE. *I like and respect you*, but your way isn't the only way. Also, I had my books at $4.99 way before most people dared to. They thought $2.99 was pushing it. So it's not that I'm afraid to charge a fair price. I simply know I sell more books when I have the first in a series FREE.

I could ask the same thing about why people have ANY novel length books in KU. But I don't, because by now I know for some people they make more money doing so than not. Just becase we don't all do it the same way doesn't mean we haven't the sense to figure out what works best for US. 

Also,if we're talking about what we wonder and what we'd like: it would be nice if there were more sites that actually promoted $4.99 books and even higher. AND it would be nice if they didn't want only 4 star plus, but instead looked at the reviews and saw what was being said in the reviews. Gastien has over 150 reviews. It has a 3.4 rating right now. I would say 95% of the 1 stars are because of the graphic sex. Some people don't bother to read the description or sample. Some people read a sex scene and assume it's supposed to be "sexy" or I mistakenly thought it was "romantic". They can't think past that, and they don't understand sex is often used for power, for putting someone in their place, for lots of things. Fair enough. I understand this is going to happen and accept it. I know I'm going to get both 1 and 5 stars, usually in the same day.  It comes with writing the raw, graphic drama I write and I knew that going in.

If Gastien gets enough reviews it will be lucky to have 3 star average because it's a book and series that creates STRONG reaction one way or another. Even so, it's good enough for Bookbub, but not good enough for promo sites where I could only hope to move a couple hundred copies IF I'm lucky because it isn't romance or erotica. Go figure.  I can also get on Bookbub and POI but not ENT because (gasp!) I have sex in my novels. Oh, and another site told me my book about sex trafficking was not "a fit" because of the "overtylysexual" theme. And here I always thought sex-trafficking was a CRIME, not a sexual theme. And it has about a 4.5 rating.

I'll probably never write a thing that doesn't work up at least some readers. So be it. I write what I love to read, except when writing under my erotica name.

Not really grumbling, just saying: We all wonder about certain things and hope for certain things. Each person's books are different. My marketing strategy has to be different than yours. We write very different books and can expect very different reactions.

So, yeah, you're asking why I have more than one book free rankled me, just like it did Patti. Why? I have very good reasons. Reasons including money, more exposure and list building. 
Thanks for asking!


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Patty Jansen said:


> I have more than one book free because they're all first books of series. Believe it or not, it works. It's all very well berating people for having freebies when you're selling a ton. Good on ya. Really, you've obviously found a market. But you're not me, and if I don't have the freebies, I sell F-all. So the choice isn't so hard, isn't it? I would VERY MUCH PREFER not to have the freebies, but it just doesn't work like that. I can go all huffy and put prices back up with an "I'm worth more than that" attitude, but that attitude still sells me F-all in books. So there is that.
> 
> I'm a nobody and a prawn. I have to give stuff for free or people don't buy. Now that could mean my work sucks or whatever. The SFWA and those sales that qualified me obviously didn't think so. Or it could be a thing of visibility. I prefer the latter. I'm not complaining about sales. I would like to sell more and I'm doing stuff *I* found works for selling more.


+1

I have two first in series permafree and another series of short stories that are all 99 cents. With over 60 books out, that's a very small percentage of my total output. $3.99 and $4.99 for standalones does not work for me at all. And believe me, I gave it a good year-long shot. Those price points only work for bundles. Again, for me. If that works for other people, I'm happy for you, but I already know that raising my prices isn't going to result in more sales or money.

I have a novella and two full-length novels with the novella at 99 cents that I'll be bundling and putting out some time next week. The novels are priced at $2.99 and I'll be pricing the series bundle at $4.99.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

If you don't want to make money on your writing, or don't plan to make money on your writing, I would think the title of this post would make it clear it's not addressing your goals, which are perfectly admirable goals, just not what I was talking about. 

Mailing lists.

We all talk about those things a lot don't we? I've built several over the past three years to the point that I have to now pay for Mailchimp. Out of curiosity, those of you with permafree books, how many people are signing up for your mailing list each month?

I have one list just for the link that is at the back of all of my JAFF books. I also have a separate list of about 200 readers from various forms I've made on my blog (so they could enter their email address there, didn't have to buy a book to do so). This is how my list has grown since July, just the list for the link at the back of my retail books.










Now, like I said, I've grown many an email list. Not all are created equal. That list right there has a 63% open rate and 35% click rate beating what Mailchimp says is the industry standards by a great deal (21.7% and 4.8% respectively). I see so many authors who get frustrated about how difficult it is to build a mailing list. And they should know, it's NOT easy, it takes a ton of time. But the quality of the list your build matters too, a list of just a bunch of email addresses vaguely interested in what you have to say is worth less than a smaller list with a higher engagement rate.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

ShaneJeffery said:


> At the moment I have a pen name with several romantic shorts averaging 10000 words in KU. They're all 99 cents.
> 
> I get more than twice as many borrows as I do sales. I make money from the borrows.
> 
> ...


This brings up another point. Maybe a writer couldn't make a living on 99 cents before KU, but now the borrows are worth over a dollar. So at least for the time being, you probably could if you had enough in there. I'm not a fan of KU because you never know what the pot will be, but as it stands now the 99 cent author could do well. I have one story in Select right now and I got borrows last month. I imagine if I threw more in I'd do okay.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

It really depends on genre. You need to study your genre and know what prices sell best. Simple as that.

Some genres tolerate higher prices. Others don't.

Figure out what works for yours and make it work for your books.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

I haven't the longer works that can get higher dollars. Not yet anyway. All of my .99s are short stories. I have small compilations at $1.25 and the 300 page short story compilation at $2.99. My novella is free. My next one won't be and it will be at least a novella.

A couple days ago  I was acting on EAs advice and was writing something that would be longer. Then I came across something that is a mirror image of a book I wrote in 1998 and rewrote and rewrote and rewrote. It still sits here doing nothing. But after what I saw yesterday, I've pulled out the earliest version I had and started rewriting today. I hope to have it done in a month. I'm sure there's lots in it that has to go or otherwise be changed. It will be $2.99 as well.

I'm giving away a short Christmas story, and I mean short. It's one of my favorites. Another of my favorites which is a Halloween story is my biggest seller at 0.99 cents. And it's maybe 20 pages. It doesn't sell a lot, but more than I would have thought.

Anyway, in the next couple of weeks I'm going to go through some of my other stories that are done to the first draft. Maybe I can rewrite them and make them work for me. We'll see.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

Caddy, was your very first book free or .99 cents out of the gate or did you charge for it? I think that is what Elizabeth is saying. You have a library of work now and going free with a first in each series can work really well for authors with a BODY of work. Elizabeth did say NEW authors. You are not in that category anymore, isn't that great? 

New authors need readers, it's part of the work of being an author. Finding readers is hard sometimes but sometimes it takes work with just one blogger or deal site owner to set it off. To do that you have to promote yourself. Or find people to help promote you. If you can't afford the "good" promotion sites, contact some others. Message offering something to their readership or a guest blog for their blog. Seek out those who are interested in your genre.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> I think Elizabeth is channeling the Quiss I remember from 2012.
> 
> I'm really happy that she found an under-served niche where she can charge more money.
> 
> ...


I've often considered this. When I do raise prices how will I promote? Likely, I'll write more 99 cent stuff for free select days and put an excerpt to the higher priced stuff in back of it. I not going blind here. I have a plan and my income picked up in December, so it's starting to work.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Two of my series have permafree book ones. I also have a third full-length permafree -- a standalone. In isolation, permafreeing a standalone makes zero sense, but I did it to push a new series in the same subgenre. And the free standalone wound up with so much visibility that it spilled over to all my other titles, earning way more than that book ever did. Since doing that, my Google moneys have gone from $100/month to $1K/month. Oh, also have a fourth book (which is actually a three-book box set) permafree in two Amazon and iBooks territories that has visibly boosted sales in those places.

My mailing list adds 150-300/month, by the way. Around 3.7K now. Engagement rate has gradually declined as it's expanded and aged, but new books still see a 50-55% open rate, and a 20-30% click rate, depending on series.

I agree permafree's generally weaker on Amazon US. Less of a magic bullet than it was 2-3 years ago. But there are still a lot of uses for it -- other territories, other stores, any series that just doesn't want to seem to sell. It's pretty easy to test these things out and see which method results in the biggest boost for you.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

MzPiggy said:


> Caddy, was your very first book free or .99 cents out of the gate or did you charge for it? I think that is what Elizabeth is saying. You have a library of work now and going free with a first in each series can work really well for authors with a BODY of work. Elizabeth did say NEW authors. You are not in that category anymore, isn't that great?
> 
> New authors need readers, it's part of the work of being an author. Finding readers is hard sometimes but sometimes it takes work with just one blogger or deal site owner to set it off. To do that you have to promote yourself. Or find people to help promote you. If you can't afford the "good" promotion sites, contact some others. Message offering something to their readership or a guest blog for their blog. Seek out those who are interested in your genre.


Yes, I would agree regarding new readers. But if someone has more than one book free, they aren't brand new...unless they make every book free, which I agree would be puzzling. You are right about the promotion. It took a lot of work and advertising to get over 150 reviews for my first book. Over 3 years of hard work. I started at $2.99 and in about 4 months went to $4.99 because I felt for historical $2.99 made my work look inferior. THen, when the 5 book series was finished I did my first book perma-free. Same with the second series. Another reason for it having a perma after completing the saga was a genre switch. Although they are both drama, one is also historical/family saga. The other is psychological thriller. It has been tough with that second series and it just went perma about 2 weeks ago. Things are S L O W L Y picking up for it. That's what I mean about knowing your own situation. There are so darn many variables involved!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Katrina46 that is exactly HOW to use a loss leader. Use it to promote the higher priced stuff. All I said was don't make everything a loss leader. And then a ton of established authors decided to come here and start saying how I was somehow leading people astray. Let them start a new pen name from scratch, not use any of their existing contacts and SEE what the market is like today versus three years ago when we all started. 

Here is how I promote. I share a blog with another woman and we do book deals everyday. We have a following of readers. This year I'm going back to how I started when I rebooted my publishing career in a completely different genre than Cancelled and share my stories chapter by chapter on my blog. That gets me more reader engagement and fans who will actually do things like a street team would than anything else I've ever tried. I like free samples I can control. I did the whole free run thing two years ago, and my stomach still wants to throw up over 55,000 books I gave away for free. 

Free books can easily go unread. 99 cent books can go unread. In order to convert a reader to a fan they have to first READ you. So I have fans right now who have never b0ought a book from me because I've shared them privately and publicly before I published them.

I work off of data. If someone has better data on how to start over right now in today's market, I'm all ears.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I am not posting this to start a controversy, but to correct what I'm seeing a ton of new authors doing. I am guessing they are operating on old information because there WAS a time when the advice was go 99 cents to sell a ton of copies.
> 
> That times is way, way, way OVER.
> 
> ...


The reason permafree and .99 work is because it utilizes Amazon's promotional ecosystem correctly.

There are many times in many genres where pricing at .99 will allow you to use Amazon's ecosystem to your advantage, and you'll end up selling much more than 6 times the amount you would at a higher price point.

As for permafree, I can make a living because of permafree, and the reason permafree is so strong is because it gives you free advertising that is better than any other advertising in the market, besides Bookbub.

Honestly, if I didn't have permafree/ .99, my books would just spiral into obscurity, selling one or two copies a month. I know this because I launch new pen names all the time, and I experiment with different price points across different genres. All books are not given the same spot at the table. Not all books are pushed in front the same amount of eyes.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Two of my series have permafree book ones. I also have a third full-length permafree -- a standalone. In isolation, permafreeing a standalone makes zero sense, but I did it to push a new series in the same subgenre. And the free standalone wound up with so much visibility that it spilled over to all my other titles, earning way more than that book ever did. Since doing that, my Google moneys have gone from $100/month to $1K/month. Oh, also have a fourth book (which is actually a three-book box set) permafree in two Amazon and iBooks territories that has visibly boosted sales in those places.
> 
> My mailing list adds 150-300/month, by the way. Around 3.7K now. Engagement rate has gradually declined as it's expanded and aged, but new books still see a 50-55% open rate, and a 20-30% click rate, depending on series.
> 
> I agree permafree's generally weaker on Amazon US. Less of a magic bullet than it was 2-3 years ago. But there are still a lot of uses for it -- other territories, other stores, any series that just doesn't want to seem to sell. It's pretty easy to test these things out and see which method results in the biggest boost for you.


Thank you for the data on how many add per month to your mailing list.  I think if we probably compared the degrees of your monthly sales to my monthly sales the conversion rates would be similar. I'm seeing between 5 to 10 joining for every 1,000 sales.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I work off of data. If someone has better data on how to start over right now in today's market, I'm all ears.


Ed and Deanna have both posted in this thread about strategies that have worked for them, and they are big sellers. Ed just said he makes a thousand bucks a month on Google alone, and that's generally considered a minor ebook market.

The bottom line is that there's no one strategy, no one magic genre, but 99¢ and permafree are still working very well for some people.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Ed and Deanna have both posted in this thread about strategies that have worked for them, and they are big sellers. Ed just said he makes a thousand bucks a month on Google alone, and that's generally considered a minor ebook market.
> 
> The bottom line is that there's no one strategy, no one magic genre, but 99¢ and permafree are still working very well for some people.


But they're NOT NEW. They're established authors who rode the wave of when these strategies were in their heyday.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> But they're NOT NEW. They're established authors who rode the wave of when these strategies were in their heyday.


So we shouldn't listen to advice from people who have had longterm (what we all want) and, BTW, increasing success?


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Katrina46 that is exactly HOW to use a loss leader. Use it to promote the higher priced stuff. All I said was don't make everything a loss leader. And then a ton of established authors decided to come here and start saying how I was somehow leading people astray. Let them start a new pen name from scratch, not use any of their existing contacts and SEE what the market is like today versus three years ago when we all started.


Actually you said, "If you have more than one book permafree, why?!?!?! If you have more than one book that is 99 cents, why?!?!?! "

I answered based off of what you wrote in your original post. There are good reasons for free and 99 cents on multiple projects. I know some people using 99 cents exclusively and it's working. There isn't a one size fits all.

And fyi, I have a co-writing partner who did just start a from scratch pen name, my best friend just started a new pen name, and I'm privy to a few other authors who have started pen names recently. My head is not stuck in 2012 or 2013.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> But they're NOT NEW. They're established authors who rode the wave of when these strategies were in their heyday.


Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the strategy was over, but I still see it working. I had a BookBub ad less than a month ago that sold over 2,000 books and then had a nice little bump that lasted a couple of weeks after that. The book was 99 cents during the sale period. If it had been the first book of a series, I might have left it there for a couple of months. That's just one thing to do, of course. There are counterexamples like Joe Nobody, who prices his books at $9.99.

If what you're doing is working for you, and it sounds like it is, then I think that's great. But I would tell newer writers reading this thread that my personal advice is to keep trying different strategies, and not to automatically discount free or 99 cent books as a strategy.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Katrina46 that is exactly HOW to use a loss leader. Use it to promote the higher priced stuff. All I said was don't make everything a loss leader. And then a ton of established authors decided to come here and start saying how I was somehow leading people astray. Let them start a new pen name from scratch, not use any of their existing contacts and SEE what the market is like today versus three years ago when we all started.
> 
> Here is how I promote. I share a blog with another woman and we do book deals everyday. We have a following of readers. This year I'm going back to how I started when I rebooted my publishing career in a completely different genre than Cancelled and share my stories chapter by chapter on my blog. That gets me more reader engagement and fans who will actually do things like a street team would than anything else I've ever tried. I like free samples I can control. I did the whole free run thing two years ago, and my stomach still wants to throw up over 55,000 books I gave away for free.
> 
> ...


Oh, well thank you. I'm glad to know an established writer thinks I"m using my 99 cent strategy the right way. But do you think KU changes things a little? 99 cents actually gets you more than 99 cents in KU right now. Again, not a huge fan because we don't know if that will be true 3 months from now, but for now do you think the short story writer could do well for 99 cents in select?


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

This whole argument falls down if you fail to sell any at a higher price.  I used to sell an average of 300 per month of my short story compilation in the UK every month @ 99c. That kept me in the top 2000 overall and a top five spot in short story compilations for 7 months, rubbing shoulders in the charts and  battling for position with Stephen King and Agatha Christie etc. The income was regular as clockwork.

I made a choice to up my price and sure enough my income increased on less sales... but not for long as I lost visibility. Month on month as I dropped in the charts, sales got progressively worse until I can't remember the last time I sold one of the compilations. It took three months to drop to ziltch sales at a higher price.

That said, I only sell single shorts at 99c and everything else from $2.99 to $4.99, and I still don't make a living.

There's more to selling on price as we are finding out, especially from the OP.

The only hope for a new author charging higher prices without a mailing list is that it will look more of a bargain to KU readers and their downloads will give it chart visibility to make a few sales. But it only is a hope.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> But they're NOT NEW. They're established authors who rode the wave of when these strategies were in their heyday.


Even if they are new.

Imagine you are a new publisher. You have a book. You upload it to Amazon... and what? It sits on the new release list for 30 days before it hits its first wall. In those 30 days, you have to sell enough (500-2000 for competitive categories) in order to get a good placement on the Popular Lists so Amazon's algorithm kicks in. You have a much better chance of hitting that number at .99 than you do at a higher price point. If you miss those numbers, your books falls off the 30-day cliff and you're gone. That's it. Dunzo.

Higher price points work for established authors that have a strong network. They can dive the sales to hit the benchmarks needed to utilize Amazon's algorithms correctly. But without that network? You're relying on pure luck. You're hoping that for some odd reason completely out of your control, your book is going to get an early boost. This can happen sometimes, but it rarely ever does, and it isn't a good strategy to rely on. Permafree/.99 is a strategy that always works.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> If you have more than one book permafree, why?!?!?! If you have more than one book that is 99 cents, why?!?!?!


Permafrees - Two different series lead-ins.

99 cents - I wouldn't be able to look the man in the mirror in the eye and tell him I'm charging $3 for a 12K word series add-on. Also, my minis only exist to be collected into a nice, succulent anthology anyway.

The collections are where I make that dollah dollah bill anyway--no worries about sell-through when they buy the whole thing.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

I think it comes down to figuring out what works for you.

A. Priced at $6.99 how many books are you selling?
B. Priced at $99 cents or $.299 how many are you selling?

Go with whatever is making you the most ( NET ) over the long haul. 

But I can see what Elizabeth is getting at here and I agree IF it works for you.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Katrina46 that is exactly HOW to use a loss leader. Use it to promote the higher priced stuff. All I said was don't make everything a loss leader. And then a ton of established authors decided to come here and start saying how I was somehow leading people astray. Let them start a new pen name from scratch, not use any of their existing contacts and SEE what the market is like today versus three years ago when we all started.
> 
> Here is how I promote. I share a blog with another woman and we do book deals everyday. We have a following of readers. This year I'm going back to how I started when I rebooted my publishing career in a completely different genre than Cancelled and share my stories chapter by chapter on my blog. That gets me more reader engagement and fans who will actually do things like a street team would than anything else I've ever tried. I like free samples I can control. I did the whole free run thing two years ago, and my stomach still wants to throw up over 55,000 books I gave away for free.
> 
> ...


I posted a free story on my blog, but honestly, writing and working sometimes 70 hours a week, I don't have time to keep up a blog. I haven't posted to it in months and should probably delete and start one over when I have more time.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Am really puzzled at the way Elizabeth is being attacked. All she's saying if you busted your butt on a series & you feel it contains some of your best prose, don't price too low; don't give it away––due to fear & nerves, etc. Price low & the work appears inferior––even though it certainly may be far from it.

Yes, if you're new to the game & readers don't know if you can write or even if they will be able to relate to your style or content, ought to be provided a 'sample', but don't give your work away because you happen to be impatient and want to start selling like Hugh or Joe or Russell Blake right away. The lady, clearly having paid her dues & knows what she's talking about, has earned the right to offer observations regarding this 'minefield' that we're all trying not only to negotiate, but survive intact.

I, for one, like to be reminded by someone, anyone, now & then––to feel that my work has some worth & should not be 'given away.'  

Having said that, it looks like 2015 is going to be as bumpy (exciting?) as ever here on KB.  What makes it fun to visit.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> Also, is it just me, or is the front page full of super-bossy threads this week?


I like the thread where my quote got picked up by the NYT. It might be the only time they ever notice me. I do think this author is actually trying to give some good advice to new writers, but yeah, some threads have been pretty bossy of late.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Kirkee said:


> Am really puzzled at the way Elizabeth is being attacked. All she's saying if you busted your butt on a series & you feel it contains some of your best prose, don't price too low; don't give it away----due to fear & nerves, etc. Price low & the work appears inferior----even though it certainly may be far from it.
> 
> Yes, if you're new to the game & readers don't know if you can write or even if they will be able to relate to your style or content, ought to be provided a 'sample', but don't give your work away because you happen to be impatient and want to start selling like Hugh or Joe or Russell Blake right away. The lady, clearly having paid her dues & knows what she's talking about, has earned the right to offer observations regarding this 'minefield' that we're all trying not only to negotiate, but survive intact.
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not attacking.... But it's important to realize that we don't dictate the market. Buyers do. We can think our work is worth 10 million dollars, but that doesn't matter if the readers will only pay a penny for it. I think my work is worth the same as a traditionally published book, but if I sold it for that, I'd have no money. Why? Because we don't have the same tools at our disposal.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

I find it interesting how Deborah Bladon has alot of hers at like 99 cents and she is a new york times bestseller lol.  

Who knows what the heck works. Amazon changes their mind like my underpants.

I'm still waiting to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Kirkee said:


> Am really puzzled at the way Elizabeth is being attacked.


Since when is a discussion and having a different opinion an attack?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

kalel said:


> I find it interesting how Deborah Bladon has alot of hers at like 99 cents and she is a new york times bestseller lol.
> 
> Who knows what the heck works. Amazon changes their mind like my underpants.
> 
> I'm still waiting to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.


Some Stephen King stuff is down to 2.99 and I just bought Harold Robbins for 1.99.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Kirkee said:


> Am really puzzled at the way Elizabeth is being attacked. All she's saying if you busted your butt on a series & you feel it contains some of your best prose, don't price too low; don't give it away----due to fear & nerves, etc. Price low & the work appears inferior----even though it certainly may be far from it.


I'm not seeing attacks, so much as disagreement.



> The lady, clearly having paid her dues & knows what she's talking about, has earned the right to offer observations regarding this 'minefield' that we're all trying not only to negotiate, but survive intact.


She has earned the right to offer observations. But look at some of the people who have weighed in with contrary positions. I count at least four people who have said that free and cheap books can work who have each sold well over a hundred thousand books. I wouldn't discount those opinions, either.

I respect that Elizabeth has found a system that is working for her, but I'm cautious about applying her lesson too generally, when I can see pretty powerful counterexamples. I continue to think that authors should experiment with a wide variety of tactics to obtain visibility and sales.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Am also amused by assumptions that disagreement = attack.

Elizabeth writes many awesome posts and is helpful  on the KB.

However, she wrote a post in a fairly non-nuanced way in a kinda bossy tone. Anyone who expected everyone to sagely nod our heads over that post hasn't been on the KB very long. Incidentally, discussions based on equal footing is why this place is so awesome.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Am also amused by assumptions that disagreement = attack.
> 
> Elizabeth writes many awesome posts and is helpful on the KB.


Yes! I can agree with plenty of things she says without agreeing with this one.



> However, she wrote a post in a fairly non-nuanced way in a kinda bossy tone. Anyone who expected everyone to sagely nod our heads over that post hasn't been on the KB very long. Incidentally, discussions based on equal footing is why this place is so awesome.


Even if it had been worded in the most polite way possible (and personally, the tone doesn't bother me all that much), it's _still_ okay to disagree.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

Disagreeing can be done without snark, drama and name-calling. But it isn't much fun that way.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> Am also amused by assumptions that disagreement = attack.
> 
> Elizabeth writes many awesome posts and is helpful on the KB.
> 
> However, she wrote a post in a fairly non-nuanced way in a kinda bossy tone. Anyone who expected everyone to sagely nod our heads over that post hasn't been on the KB very long. Incidentally, discussions based on equal footing is why this place is so awesome.


I think sometimes it's just the tone doesn't come across as intended in a written post. More than once I've snapped at people and then had to apologize when they explained they were trying to help. They came across as sarcastic to me at first.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Also, I'm pretty sure some $10 books go unread too. That was just a really weird argument.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

No way am I paying $10 for a book and NOT reading it, LOL! I did that recently and the book completely ticked me off, had super ratings, reviews, and the whole package. But I spent my $10 and I read it to the bitter end. If I pay 99 cents it's so much easier to delete it off my Kindle for life.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Thank you for the data on how many add per month to your mailing list.  I think if we probably compared the degrees of your monthly sales to my monthly sales the conversion rates would be similar. I'm seeing between 5 to 10 joining for every 1,000 sales.


Yeah, I see 1 signup for every 60-100 sales or so. People are stingy with their emails. 

Anyway, some of my recent permafree ventures have been within the last 6 months in markets where I've sold very little. So I don't think it's solely old advice, or tactics that only work because I'm already established or something.

One other thing -- each series is going to draw a different audience. A lot of my readers are only there for one of my series. Some of this is because I write across several different SF/F subgenres, but I think it holds true for every writer; even if you write nothing but space opera, for instance, one of those series is inevitably going to be more popular than the others. (Possibly significantly so!) To me, then, it makes a lot of sense to employ loss leaders across multiple series. Each one is going to draw from different pools of readers -- and some of each pool you draw on is going to turn into your true, core fans who'll then go on to pick up whatever you do.

That said, I'm trying my damnedest to keep every book in my newest series at $2.99+, no loss leaders.. but if it doesn't perform and grow the way I want it to, I will absolutely slash prices on book #0 to see if it helps.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Also, I'm pretty sure some $10 books go unread too. That was just a really weird argument.


12.95 and it is still only 45% read.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

MzPiggy said:


> No way am I paying $10 for a book and NOT reading it, LOL! I did that recently and the book completely ticked me off, had super ratings, reviews, and the whole package. But I spent my $10 and I read it to the bitter end. If I pay 99 cents it's so much easier to delete it off my Kindle for life.


I paid thirty dollars for King's 11/22/63 the day it was released. I love history and time travel. I couldn't wait to read that book. Half way through I just lost all interest. For me it wasn't his best. I never finished it.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Hey ya'll, 

I'm sorry if my tone aggravated. I heartily admit I was frustrated when I wrote it because I was reading thread after thread after thread of why am I not selling and seeing the magical three books everyone says to have priced FREE then 99 cents and 99 cents. 

I stepped away from this thread because I think all sides have been politely discussed. It always up to everyone else to do what works for them. But there are a whole heck of a lot more go free and go 99 cents posts around here than what I'm saying worked for me. I'm also not even a year removed from selling single digits, so I know exactly what that feels like. Not many around here who have been around as long as I have been remember that, or if they do, haven't experienced it lately. I took 3 years off and did other stuff.

I don't feel attacked. I'm ok. I love my KBoards family.  And even those that don't agree with me here, I know if I asked, they would all still share a tweet or post a FB post because that's HOW we roll here. And I would do it for them too. In a heart beat.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

katrina46 said:


> I paid thirty dollars for King's 11/22/63 the day it was released. I love history and time travel. I couldn't wait to read that book. Half way through I just lost all interest. For me it wasn't his best. I never finished it.


It wasn't my favorite of his either and I had issues with the end but I hung in there, hoping.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Monique said:


> It wasn't long before we had the first "you're doing it wrong; do it my way" thread of the year, was it?


You read my mind. 

Congratulations Elizabeth on selling so well!  I do believe most of your books are romance.

It's very hard for romance writers to see what is happening outside their own genre/experience and vice versa.

I sell several hundred to thousands in a typical month, and give away several hundred to thousands depending on my level of promotion.

One observation from my experience in writing in genres outside romance:

I belong to a review site where authors are welcomed to express which books they would like reviews on (similar to Net Galley.) 
My history mystery? Zero interested. 
My flash fiction? one.
My nonfiction? zero. 
My sweet Christmas romance? TONS.

I've written in several genres and now have fifteen works out with three more releasing soon, and I've never had more interest or better reception than in my romance.

I can see that genre impacts sales much more than any other factor. Visibility comes in second. You can be #1 in a category and still move very few copies. You can be #1,000 in romance and make a killing.

99 cents and free can work to drive sales to your other work, sure. 
99 cents and free can help build readers who would never give you a try.
It has it's place just like 9.99 ebooks have theirs. It's finding your buyers at their price point. 
But if you write poetry or any obscure genre, you may have a very tiny slice of potential readers who are ever interested no matter what the price point is.

If you look at the top ten indie authors last year, only one did not specialize in romance. So if you are writing outside romance, I suggest you look at the rankings of the top authors in your genre, the number of works they have out, at what price points, and then see if it's reasonable for you to expect to make a living from what you are writing. Most trades don't make a living writing, and most indies won't either. Plan like you are not an outlier. If it happens that you find yourself making a living, fantastic! Bank as much as you can for rainy days.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

MzPiggy said:


> It wasn't my favorite of his either and I had issues with the end but I hung in there, hoping.


Just out of curiosity, how did it end?


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

For the record, my books are in Historical Fiction. I also cross list them in Christian Romance because they are sweet and clean stories and I know that is an underserved niche as well. They're not promoted or listed or even ranking on the main romance lists.

When I first had success this summer, my books were in Classics and Historical Fiction. The only list I've ranked #1 in has been a subset of Historical Fiction. I don't know why everyone says "I'm writing romance." I have a one star review on By Consequence of Marriage because it WASN"T  a romance. 

And that's the thing, I don't aim for the Top Ten of all Indie Authors. I'm aiming for a living wage and I think that's what some other authors are looking for, too. That's it. I have no delusion that my subniche is going to have mass reader appeal. It's not. And if it does, it won't be because of me personally, it will be because another P&P movie version comes out or smoething like that (the 2005 movie version helped the sales of many trad pubbed JAFF authors then).


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## jillb (Oct 4, 2014)

I agree that each genre has its own price points. I did not see any noticeable change in buying patterns when I raised my price from the introductory $0.99 to $2.99. In fact for some books, I sold more at $2.99 than at $0.99. I'm wondering if I should raise it to $3.49...Almost all the books in my genre are priced at upwards of $2.99 and most are 1/2 - 2/3 the length of my books, which average 10K words.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Definitely not romance, or you probably would be pricing $0.99!  

Rue


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

katrina46 said:


> Just out of curiosity, how did it end?


I won't give it away for those who haven't read but it just wasn't right, IMO. Not what I was expecting and hoping for but it really worked for lots of other readers so I could just be the quirky one. It was worth the read but I have been known to give interesting story lines the benefit of the doubt only to be disappointed in the finish. It's a flaw I have. LOL!


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm reading through this thread and thinking how good this Pepsi is.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

MzPiggy said:


> I won't give it away for those who haven't read but it just wasn't right, IMO. Not what I was expecting and hoping for but it really worked for lots of other readers so I could just be the quirky one. It was worth the read but I have been known to give interesting story lines the benefit of the doubt only to be disappointed in the finish. It's a flaw I have. LOL!


I think what disappointed me is that I really thought it was about saving Kennedy and how that would alter the world, but it was all this other stuff I couldn't seem to care about. He's still always going to be my favorite though. He ALMOST never lets me down.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

No, I wouldn't actually. Cancelled IS a romance. Historical data shows I sold more or the same at $2.99, $3.99 and $4.99 as I did at 99 cents. 

I sincerely HAVE tried 99 cents extensively, even with my current crop of historical fiction books. Notta. So if you're in a situation where 99 cents or permafree is not working for you, i.e. you're not seeing the returns you think you should based on what everyone else reports, it might BE a higher price point that helps you find the readers who will love you.

Readers come with all different budgets on books. Because to the big disparity in percentages for royalties, I absolutely would go after the romance readers buying books at $3.99 and $4.99 because I don't need that many of them on multiple titles to make a living. But part of that plan would be to deliver WHAT those readers want, and that would be a new novella or short novel length work (50-60k) each month without fail with an interesting plot line. 

But that's me. I've seen hundreds of romance titles sell of price points above 99 cents and not all are trad pubbed. What I would do is deconstruct what is in common for those books to do that and then try to replicate it myself.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

katrina46 said:


> I think what disappointed me is that I really thought it was about saving Kennedy and how that would alter the world, but it was all this other stuff I couldn't seem to care about. He's still always going to be my favorite though. He ALMOST never lets me down.


That was exactly my expectation!


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I was just teasing you, Elizabeth. 

I personally think $0.99 works great for short stories and promo prices for novels (which would include loss leaders on series). 

Have tried upping my prices on my shorts, but sales dry up pretty quick. And I just can't bring myself to sell anything (at least anything I've written so far) under 10,000 words for $2.99. Tried it last year after Christmas on my novelette (listened to some advice here at the time about raising prices). Went from selling 30 copies in December to 4 in January. :/

It really varies so much for genre to genre and even author to author.

Rue


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

katrina46 said:


> I like the thread where my quote got picked up by the NYT. It might be the only time they ever notice me. I do think this author is actually trying to give some good advice to new writers, but yeah, some threads have been pretty bossy of late.


I'm reading this thread aghast (well any contribution from Elizabeth to the thread) and thinking that there is a causal connection between the spate of strident threads dripping with arrogant assumption and the fact that people now know that the _New York Times_ has a spy serving tables at the cafe.

I guess all those who think they are heavy hitters are all jealous of Holly and Katrina.


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## Dactyl (Dec 27, 2014)

Caddy said:


> It STILL makes perfect sense to make the first book of a series FREE.


I wonder if anyone knows how many times this has been said in these forums. Some people who say it (not all) seem to think that books on any medium must be part of a series and that there is a formula for making a profit in the long term: free for the first book, $.99 for the second, and a higher price with each subsequent book in the series. Really? It usually takes a while to produce a quality book. Many things in a writer's life can stop a series progression in its tracks, including an inferior third or fourth book in a series. When I saw the oft-quoted assertion, I wondered, "What would J.D. Salinger's _Catcher in the Rye_ have been like if he had tried to write a series instead of the book he actually wrote? Books don't have to be part of a series to be successful (whatever that means). I am just guessing but I doubt that _Gone Girl_ will have a sequel.

Ii see very few posts in these forums where writing is the primary topic. Instead, the discussions tend to migrate to the amount of money someone has made or could make if only ...


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I'm reading through this thread and thinking how good this Pepsi is.


At least you didn't say popcorn.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Mercia McMahon said:


> I'm reading this thread aghast (well any contribution from Elizabeth to the thread) and thinking that there is a causal connection between the spate of strident threads dripping with arrogant assumption and the fact that people now know that the _New York Times_ has a spy serving tables at the cafe.
> 
> I guess all those who think they are heavy hitters are all jealous of Holly and Katrina.


I am a very civil individual Mercia.  There is absolutely nothing different about what I have posted here and what I have posted in the past. If you were HERE in 2011 and 2012 you would have seen the threads Swolf and I single-handedly shut down over free and 99 cent pricing. 

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Dactyl said:


> I wonder if anyone knows how many times this has been said in these forums. Some people who say it (not all) seem to think that books on any medium must be part of a series and that there is a formula for making a profit in the long term: free for the first book, $.99 for the second, and a higher price with each subsequent book in the series. Really? It usually takes a while to produce a quality book. Many things in a writer's life can stop a series progression in its tracks, including an inferior third or fourth book in a series. When I saw the oft-quoted assertion, I wondered, "What would J.D. Salinger's _Catcher in the Rye_ have been like if he had tried to write a series instead of the book he actually wrote? Books don't have to be part of a series to be successful (whatever that means). I am just guessing but I doubt that _Gone Girl_ will have a sequel.
> 
> Ii see very few posts in these forums where writing is the primary topic. Instead, the discussions tend to migrate to the amount of money someone has made or could make if only ...


Many of us here make a living from our writing, and that's the subject most people have questions about. It's really simple. Writing one great book=a small chance of making a living writing. Writing a successful series gives you a much better chance of not being poor. This is a simple truth throughout the entire publishing industry. World-renowned authors have absolutely atrocious sales compared to genre "hacks".


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## devalong (Aug 28, 2014)

Briteka said:


> Even if they are new.
> 
> Imagine you are a new publisher. You have a book. You upload it to Amazon... and what? It sits on the new release list for 30 days before it hits its first wall. In those 30 days, you have to sell enough (500-2000 for competitive categories) in order to get a good placement on the Popular Lists so Amazon's algorithm kicks in. You have a much better chance of hitting that number at .99 than you do at a higher price point. If you miss those numbers, your books falls off the 30-day cliff and you're gone. That's it. Dunzo.
> 
> Higher price points work for established authors that have a strong network. They can dive the sales to hit the benchmarks needed to utilize Amazon's algorithms correctly. But without that network? You're relying on pure luck. You're hoping that for some odd reason completely out of your control, your book is going to get an early boost. This can happen sometimes, but it rarely ever does, and it isn't a good strategy to rely on. Permafree/.99 is a strategy that always works.


I've heard several times that Amazon counts a .99 sale much less than a $2.99+ for sales rank, somthing like you have to sell 5 at .99 to equal one at $2.99's effect on sales rank - does anyone have data on this?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I am a very civil individual Mercia.  There is absolutely nothing different about what I have posted here and what I have posted in the past. If you were HERE in 2011 and 2012 you would have seen the threads Swolf and I single-handedly shut down over free and 99 cent pricing.


I'm confused. Are you saying he was against .99 cents, or that you two argued over the point? I ask because I read his stuff and he has tons of 99 cent stories. I edited to say he's a great example of how it can work. He does quite well. Of course he does have higher priced stuff, too.

_Edited quoted post. --Betsy_


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> At least you didn't say popcorn.


I saw Unbroken earlier today. I'm all popcorned out.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

devalong said:


> I've heard several times that Amazon counts a .99 sale much less than a $2.99+ for sales rank, somthing like you have to sell 5 at .99 to equal one at $2.99's effect on sales rank - does anyone have data on this?


Bestseller rank is the same whether you're selling at $0.01 or $100.

Rankings in other areas, like the popularity lists (e.g. for fantasy, here's bestseller, here's popularity) is influenced by price. Not sure if it's changed, but a while back, $0.99 books took roughly twice as many sales to achieve similar pop list ranks as $2.99 books.

Anyone's guess as to how many customers browse each list.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

************


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I can tell you exactly what changed.  You're not going to like it, Phoenix.

In September, I started posting my stories for free on the largest JAFF forum.

Guess what's part of my plan for 2015.  But you will be able to see all the results. 

Sorry had to edit I'm dictating and talking too fast. It's almost 11:30 my time so I am off to bed.  

I also had a dip in my sales because I published twice in July, then nothing until September, then nothing until November. IN 2015, I am attempting no less than once a month, and twice a month when I can manage. It will be interesting to see the results.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Bestseller rank is the same whether you're selling at $0.01 or $100.
> 
> Rankings in other areas, like the popularity lists (e.g. for fantasy, here's bestseller, here's popularity) is influenced by price. Not sure if it's changed, but a while back, $0.99 books took roughly twice as many sales to achieve similar pop list ranks as $2.99 books.
> 
> Anyone's guess as to how many customers browse each list.


Correct.

The only variables taken into account for sales rank is number of copies moved in a certain amount of time.

As for pop list/also-bought variables, no one really knows the algorithm. We can only get a feel for what's needed in each category through trial and error.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

My permafree is used as a loss leader. I love the flexibility I have with it to promote it whenever I want. However, in November, I decided to put my Book 1 on sale for 99 cents so that I can run some promos on it to encourage some sales with book 2 which I had just released and I also wanted to boost my rankings a bit.
I think the devotion to the 99 cents selling point still stems from being conditioned to encourage sales on Amazon, as I noticed all my 99 cent sales of Book 1 were there. As soon as I brought the price back up, it started selling on other channels. JMO, but that is what my experience has been.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Deanna Chase said:


> Sometimes free and 99 cents are about building audience and newsletter lists for future releases. Sometimes more than one book free is a strategy to sell an unrelated series. It also could be balls out marketing to see what happens.
> 
> Sometimes people have a plan.
> 
> My only advice is to know why you're doing something. Have a plan and a desired outcome. If the plan isn't working, try something else.


This. There are many many people making a lot of money with more than one free book (I have four currently) and more than one .99 cent title (I have...I don't even know how many. 8?) But that's not because I'm undervaluing my work. It's very well thought out, and part of a larger marketing and visibility plan that is about building brands for two pen names. I do get what the OP is trying to say, but I have to admit, as a full-time author with a six-figure business, it bristles to be told that what I'm doing needs to be "corrected" when I've made it my life's work to know exactly what I'm doing and why. I think, at a point, we really all have to step back and see that our way isn't the only way to success.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> There is not a single author making a living on ALL 99 cent priced stuff.


Not true. These sweeping generalizations are so dicey, and really undercut your point. I personally know two authors right off the top of my head who made a living (and both made a SERIOUS living) off of .99 books. One of them has started adding longer works priced at 2.99 to the mix, but she was making five figures a month long before that. The other still makes her living at the .99 price point off KU. I would also say that, if I had the will or an hour to spare, I could comb through Amazon and find a dozen or more authors who do the same. Do I think all .99 cent is smart for most people? Probably not. But I'm not going to say that it can't work. Especially with KU still paying over $1 a borrow. Can that all change tomorrow? Yep. But for now, that's my .02.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Nope. I'm going to be stubborn because I have seen too much on BOTH sides, including the ways to pay your way onto the NYTime or USA Today bestseller rankings to just be drowned out. Don't take that to mean I'm saying ALL people on USA Today or NYT paid their way onto the list, MOST of the authors worked very hard to be there. But we all drank the John Locke Kool-Aid of "I only have to be 1/10th as good as the trad pubbers" for over a year before he finally came out and said he paid for reviews, didn't we? 

This is exactly why anyone who does well with any other plan other than permafree and 99 cents and Bookbub doesn't post here. Look at this thread, so many have backed up what I said, that they EARNED more because they aren't a megaseller like the chosen few, with a higher price point. Most of us are not in this profession for our health. We write because we enjoy it, sure, but even a hobby writer wants to cover his or her costs to publish.

All of you so quick to tell me how offended you are I asked why you have mutliple free books to feed to 99 cent books, go write your own threads with plans for those writers who are only selling a handful of copies each month what they're supposed to be doing differently. Many of them are following your lead, go on, go tell them. Go explain to them the secret of making 5 figures a month on 99 cent books.

You can't. Because there is no tried and tested way to replicate those results. 

So, yeah, I'm saying it. If you wrote a book, a novella, something you poured months and months of planning and work into, price it so you get a royalty check every month on the handful of sales you can get. 

Because all of us started with selling handfuls. 

Once you have a backlist, a catalog, then you can use price as ONE way to draw visibility to a title or titles if you so choose which is what all of you have advocated. But no, an author who made it to the next level after years of selling just 1 maybe 2 titles a month has all of you so offended. Well you know what, there's a ton of threads here I don't comment on because they don't apply to me. And this thread, didn't apply to you either. Because you're not an author with a handful of books priced at free and 99 cents wondering why you aren't making thousands each month. Sheesh.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

MzPiggy said:


> I won't give it away for those who haven't read but it just wasn't right, IMO. Not what I was expecting and hoping for but it really worked for lots of other readers so I could just be the quirky one. It was worth the read but I have been known to give interesting story lines the benefit of the doubt only to be disappointed in the finish. It's a flaw I have. LOL!


Thanks for not giving the ending away... I'm halfway through, and it'll be awhile before I get back to it.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

I appreciate Elizabeth's opening post. It definitely makes for an interesting discussion, albeit a heated one, but it's these kind of informational threads that make kboards so valuable.

So thanks, Elizabeth, for putting it out there for discussion.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

I expect it will be difficult to make a living at _any_ price in a couple of years, if you're not thinking outside the (Amazon) box.

LOL, look at me bringing cheer and positivity into the new year.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey, folks...just sticking my head in briefly.  Still reading through.

I do want to point out that this is a discussion board, not an agreement board.  If you post something on the forum, you should expect that someone disagreeing with you will post with their viewpoint.  As long as it's civil, that's fine.  Nor is it an argument board.  Once one has made one's point in responding to an individual, it's usually time to move on.  Otherwise dead horses get beaten and PETA contacts us.

I appreciate that this conversation has been almost entirely civil.  Still reviewing as I have more coffee.  (Big day yesterday.)  Breakfast cookies work, right?

Anyway, carry on.  But not too much.    I think this is a great discussion with a lot of good posts from some of our most successful KB members, old and new.

Betsy
KB Mods


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

Monique said:


> It wasn't long before we had the first "you're doing it wrong; do it my way" thread of the year, was it?


LOL!


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2015)

It is a matter of simple math.

How much do you need to net...*NET* after all expenses, taxes, etc to "live." Not "survive." Not "get by." Not "manage." * LIVE. * _Have a life._ Be able to afford things. Have a retirement account. Have money in the bank in case of an emergency. Be able to take a vacation. You figure out what that number is. THAT is how many books you will have to sell a year to live. This is what I see as the biggest mistake authors make. I so often hear authors saying "I only need..." and some frighteningly low income amount per month to "survive." That isn't making a living. That isn't going to keep a roof over your head in retirement. That may suffice if you are living with your parents, but it isn't going to get you out of your parent's house.

Do you need $50,000 a year? You need to sell over 142,000 books a year at 99 cents, because you are only getting 35 cents a pop. Oops, sorry. probably closer to 200,000 a year, or almost 550 a day, because you have to pay your income tax and self-employment taxes and account for your production expenses. And you need to do that every year. And with the cost of living going up annually, the number of sales you will need go up annually. Can it be done? Of course. There are people on this forum doing it. But is it the _norm_? No. Most certainly not. And it isn't simply a matter of 'working harder.' Anyone being honest will admit that_ luck_ has far more to do with selling almost a quarter million books a year than hard work. There are plenty of hard working, talented authors not selling a quarter million books a year.

Do the math, the real and honest math, and look at the numbers.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Katrina46 that is exactly HOW to use a loss leader. Use it to promote the higher priced stuff. All I said was don't make everything a loss leader. And then a ton of established authors decided to come here and start saying how I was somehow leading people astray. Let them start a new pen name from scratch, not use any of their existing contacts and SEE what the market is like today versus three years ago when we all started.
> 
> Here is how I promote. I share a blog with another woman and we do book deals everyday. We have a following of readers. This year I'm going back to how I started when I rebooted my publishing career in a completely different genre than Cancelled and share my stories chapter by chapter on my blog. That gets me more reader engagement and fans who will actually do things like a street team would than anything else I've ever tried. I like free samples I can control. I did the whole free run thing two years ago, and my stomach still wants to throw up over 55,000 books I gave away for free.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Liz on this one regarding giving away books. To think that a ton of people dive on a free book but wont pay is annoying. And I guarantee you most won't read that book they just grab it in the chance that one day maybe if it takes off they have it. She has done her homework and it's now paying off. Stop hating on the girl. Celebrate someone else success as you might be next. She has offered a lot to this forum in the way of ideas and what has worked for her. She doesn't have to, none of us do.

We are all in the same boat.

Having said that. I agree with others in that what works for one, might not work for another. There are no hard and fast rules to this publishing game. Sometimes you stumble into success. Often that is the case.


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## Amanda Hough (Feb 17, 2014)

Agreed! I read a review (of one of my favorite writers) with three stars. The reader said she would have given five stars but a novella for 2.99 was overpriced. That was the dumbest thing I'd seen in a while. Do you want 400 pages of tasteless, empty calories or 150 pages of fine Belgian chocolate? It is not about the number of pages. It's the quality in them. Don't sell yourself short.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Amanda Hough said:


> Agreed! I read a review (of one of my favorite writers) with three stars. The reader said she would have given five stars but a novella for 2.99 was overpriced. That was the dumbest thing I'd seen in a while. Do you want 400 pages of tasteless, empty calories or 150 pages of fine Belgian chocolate? It is not about the number of pages. It's the quality in them. Don't sell yourself short.


Yes Amanda those are the free loaders. Those who think that 80 or 120 pages is not worth $2.99. I have had reviews like that. They said, they liked the book but didn't think it was worth $2.99 lol. Heck coffee cost more and look how fast that disappears. Within minutes it's consumed.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

kalel said:


> Heck coffee cost more and look how fast that disappears. Within minutes it's consumed.


Not if you're a writer eeking out venti for the sake of warmth (of the cafe not the coffee) and wi-fi.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I have ran across some books you couldn't pay me to read that author again and others that would have been worth at least double what I paid for them.
Now as to the cup of coffee reference.  All you are getting paid is a cup of coffee.  Do you really need that cup of coffee?  
Yes that works both ways.  
Now as to EAW's OP.  She is right in some cases.  
What an author needs to do is figure out the best business plan for themselves.  What made one rich, may make another one go broke.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Amanda Hough said:


> Agreed! I read a review (of one of my favorite writers) with three stars. The reader said she would have given five stars but a novella for 2.99 was overpriced. That was the dumbest thing I'd seen in a while. Do you want 400 pages of tasteless, empty calories or 150 pages of fine Belgian chocolate? It is not about the number of pages. It's the quality in them. Don't sell yourself short.


I love the one and two star reviews that complain that a freebie is too short. <sigh>

I often wonder when we have these discussions if the app developers have their own forums and have these same discussions/concerns/complaints. For quite a while, we've been able to get a "lite" version of an app for free and then decide if we want the whole story for $2.99 or $3.99 or $4.99. Then there's the free app of the day and other full-length free apps. We're not the only game in town (no pun intended) that's doing this.

Loss leaders, free samples (I sometimes dine at the Sam's Club senior buffet), these things have been around for decades, probably even centuries, because they work. It's just too bad we can't deduct the freebies from our taxes.


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## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

I agree with the OP's opinion, with the Caveat- "Your results may vary" as the warning labels state.  Not everything works the same for everybody, but there are always Best Practices in any industry, and I appreciate that Elizabeth is sharing her thoughts on what works for her.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It is a matter of simple math.
> 
> How much do you need to net...*NET* after all expenses, taxes, etc to "live." Not "survive." Not "get by." Not "manage." * LIVE. * _Have a life._
> 
> ...


I agree with you, Julie. Just slapping up a bunch of .99 cent books and crossing fingers is not going to net most authors a living wage. But I do think there are strategies to MAKING it work that go far and above what you have outlined in your comment. And what I reallllly don't agree with is the way this original post was framed and the implication that everyone selling at this price point doesn't GET it, and she is here to enlighten us. OP literally said there is not a single author making a living at .99. The title of the post also states flat out that the reader will not make a living at that rate. There are many many ways to make that strategy work, and to not even allow for the possibility that it can be (and IS) done makes it hard to take the rest of the advice seriously. I feel like I'm being condescended to by someone who is only armed with only their own experiences and that of people who have failed using this method. If you're going to frame something as an absolute, I don't think that's enough.

So I'm going to do something I swore I wouldn't do and actually explain my reasoning, and the real math based on what is FACTUALLY happening on my sales dashboard with .99 titles, because I honestly think that readers of this thread are being misinformed in a potentially harmful way. I think if we all use the old math (pre-ku) or future math (where we extrapolate based on doom and gloom predictions of a KU nosedive), then, yes, Julie's 50k income example works. But right now, based on facts to this point, KU authors are making at LEAST $1.33 a borrow on their .99 titles. I don't know about others, but on a given day, across all titles (.99 to 3.99) my borrows range anywhere from 1.1 to 2x what my buys are. On my WORST buy v. borrow day in December (meaning on the day that my buy rate was CLOSEST to my borrow rate), my .99 titles (adding buys and borrows and assigning .35 to the former and the lowest KU payout of 1.33 to the latter and then dividing by total units moved) netted me an average of .76 per unit, not .35. That's the LOWEST average in a 30 day period. When my buy v. borrow disparity is at its highest, that number comes out to more than a dollar per copy. BUT, even working off the lowest low, if I'm getting .76 per 20k words (the ballpark average length of my .99 titles), and I math it out to the length of the average full-length novel, that puts me at making over $3.00 for 80,000 words of written material. That's a dollar per unit more than the 2.99 author is making for the same amount of content, and pretty much in line with what a 3.99 author is making for the same amount of content. So, you can see, the .35 a copy you use in your math above very quickly becomes a different animal.

If I get into less tangible factors, things will only get muddy again, but people should also be aware that there is an added value to being able to release every three weeks (which can be done with 20k books with relative ease). Increased visibility, essentially never falling off the 30 day cliff, and many other benefits that I would say can make it even MORE profitable than one, 80k work every three or four months at 3.99.

There are also loads of other factors that I'm not going to get into here because I honestly already said far more than I wanted to. Not because I'm hiding anything. More because the second I stray into an area of mere opinion, I know I'm going to get slapped down, but I wanted to speak to some facts because it's important for people to know that .99 can work very very well in the current market. Does this work equally for all genres? No. I handle different pen names different ways. Does this work for all authors? No. All I can speak on is myself. Six months ago, would I have done it this way? No. And should any of these variable change, then I will re-evaluate. But for now, this is what I'm doing. The reasons why are listed above. And I can promise the OP, it's not because I don't GET it, or because I undervalue my work. Just because an outsider may not know a person's reasons for doing something doesn't mean that reasoning wasn't applied.

That's it. My wayyyyy too long schpiel! Good luck and megasales to all, (the OP included, I wish you nothing but success, whatever road you take to get there). And Godspeed


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## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

Ms. West,

Thanks for this thought-provoking thread. I always enjoy your insights. And when everyone chimes in with their well-argued counterpoints... well, that is when Kboards becomes magic. 

Stay awesome. Cheers.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

I should also add, if an author is NOT in KU, and distributes their work across all vendors, a blanket .35 per unit still isn't a valid #. Most other vendors pay around .60 per unit. So, while it's my opinion that the best way to utilize a .99 title under in the current market is thru KU, the math is still not as dire as a flat .35 a book even outside of KU.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Chrisbwritin said:


> I should also add, if an author is NOT in KU, and distributes their work across all vendors, .35 isn't a valid #. Most other vendors pay around .60 per unit. So, while it's my opinion that the best way to utilize a .99 title under in the current market is thru KU, the math is still not as dire as a flat .35 a book even outside of KU.


Google may pay 60 cents, but Nook pays .45, Apple pays .45, Kobo pays .45, Amazon which has the largest share of the ebook market pays .35 unless a book is in KU and even then only on borrows is it higher, a purchase is still .35

So where this average of .60 is coming from, I would genuinely like to know. Add to that most authors reach multiple marketplaces for their books through an aggregator unless they live in a country where they can distribute directly and it's even less because the aggregator, like Smashwords or D2D takes a cut.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Chrisbwritin said:


> So I'm going to do something I swore I wouldn't do and actually explain my reasoning, and the real math based on what is FACTUALLY happening on my sales dashboard with .99 titles, because I honestly think that readers of this thread are being misinformed in a potentially harmful way. I think if we all use the old math (pre-ku) or future math (where we extrapolate based on doom and gloom predictions of a KU nosedive), then, yes, Julie's 50k income example works. But right now, based on facts to this point, KU authors are making at LEAST $1.33 a borrow on their .99 titles. I don't know about others, but on a given day, across all titles (.99 to 3.99) my borrows range anywhere from 1.1 to 2x what my buys are. On my WORST buy v. borrow day in December (meaning on the day that my buy rate was CLOSEST to my borrow rate), my .99 titles (adding buys and borrows and assigning .35 to the former and the lowest KU payout of 1.33 to the latter and then dividing by total units moved) netted me an average of .76 per unit, not .35. That's the LOWEST average in a 30 day period. When my buy v. borrow disparity is at its highest, that number comes out to more than a dollar per copy. BUT, even working off the lowest low, if I'm getting .76 per 20k words (the ballpark average length of my .99 titles), and I math it out to the length of the average full-length novel, that puts me at making over $3.00 for 80,000 words of written material. That's a dollar per unit more than the 2.99 author is making for the same amount of content, and pretty much in line with what a 3.99 author is making for the same amount of content. So, you can see, the .35 a copy you use in your math above very quickly becomes a different animal.


This. Well said and I know a few people doing exactly this and making a living at only 99 cents. The math is in the borrows and fast releases in hot genres.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Google may pay 60 cents, but Nook pays .45, Apple pays .45, Kobo pays .45, Amazon which has the largest share of the ebook market pays .35 unless a book is in KU and even then only on borrows is it higher, a purchase is still .35
> 
> So where this average of .60 is coming from, I would genuinely like to know. Add to that most authors reach multiple marketplaces for their books through an aggregator unless they live in a country where they can distribute directly and it's even less because the aggregator, like Smashwords or D2D takes a cut.


Actually no. At D2D the royalty on 99 cent title is .59 at Nook, Apple, and Kobo.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Google may pay 60 cents, but Nook pays .45, Apple pays .45, Kobo pays .45, Amazon which has the largest share of the ebook market pays .35 unless a book is in KU and even then only on borrows is it higher, a purchase is still .35
> 
> So where this average of .60 is coming from, I would genuinely like to know. Add to that most authors reach multiple marketplaces for their books through an aggregator unless they live in a country where they can distribute directly and it's even less because the aggregator, like Smashwords or D2D takes a cut.


You answered your own question the .60 is coming from the aggregators. Smashwords and D2D like to pay 60 cents on the dollar regardless of the retailer. That's data for you. You're welcome.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Elizabeth, you can price high, because you're in underserved genre. Most of us need loss leaders. I have 3 permafree titles& I made 140,000 dollars last year. Since May, I have made five figures every single month except for one month. The top seller in my genre, Debra Bladon, pretty much prices all of her single titles at .99. I can guarantee you that woman is a millionaire.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Google may pay 60 cents, but Nook pays .45, Apple pays .45, Kobo pays .45, Amazon which has the largest share of the ebook market pays .35 unless a book is in KU and even then only on borrows is it higher, a purchase is still .35
> 
> So where this average of .60 is coming from, I would genuinely like to know. Add to that most authors reach multiple marketplaces for their books through an aggregator unless they live in a country where they can distribute directly and it's even less because the aggregator, like Smashwords or D2D takes a cut.


Elizabeth, seriously? I never said average here. This was a caveat stuck on the end of a lonnnnng post where I did the EXACT MATH of why .35 isn't even CLOSE to what a KU author makes on a .99 book, only to say that, even in the WORST of circumstances, a flat .35 is NOT a number that can be applied as "factual math" to support the opinions you express in this thread. If you take a half a second to go to D2D and look at what all the vendors pay on a .99 cent book, you will see that almost all of them (maybe even all?) pay a flat .59 less a small aggregator fee. I'm not going to go digging through beyond Apple, Kobo, Nook etc, because it's not even relevant. If you like the number .50 better, then use that. It DOESN'T MATTER. What I DO know it that, no matter how you slice it, it isn't a .35 flat number, or even CLOSE to it. And if you count KU authors, then it's egregiously false. If someone will tell me how to post a screen shot here, I will SHOW YOU how false it is. You want to be right. I get that, but you have to realize there are people taking your uniformed word here as gospel and you can potentially be affecting careers. It's not right. I pride myself on being a professional, but this is just too important to sit back and watch silently.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

anniejocoby said:


> Agh! For my money, this is probably the worst advice I've ever seen. Elizabeth, you can price high, because you're in underserved genre. Most of us need loss leaders. I have 3 permafree titles& I made 140,000 dollars last year. Since May, I have made five figures every single month except for one month. The top seller in my genre, Debra Bladon, pretty much prices all of her single titles at .99. I can guarantee you that woman is a millionaire. I'm sorry, Elizabeth, I love your advice about finding undeserved niches, but in this instance, you're just wrong. And I have numbers to back me up.


Definitely agree that this seems genre dependent. But remember what Elizabeth is saying. She's saying if you're a newer writer with only a few titles and lower sales, that you should price higher so you're actually, y'know, earning some money on those sales.

Also, Deborah Bladon puts out individual titles at 99 cents but then bundles them relatively quickly in groups of three and sells again at a higher price point. So she's not just putting a bunch of stuff at 99 cents, and she's also got way more titles out.

I feel like Elizabeth's posts were specifically geared towards newer writers just selling or giving away titles without really having a strategy of how that would earn them money long-term.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2015)

Chrisbwritin said:


> I should also add, if an author is NOT in KU, and distributes their work across all vendors, a blanket .35 per unit still isn't a valid #. Most other vendors pay around .60 per unit. So, while it's my opinion that the best way to utilize a .99 title under in the current market is thru KU, the math is still not as dire as a flat .35 a book even outside of KU.


Generally those authors dependent on that price point primarily target Amazon's customers, so the revenue from other retailers becomes inconsequential. many authors only even bother with other vendors to get Amazon to price-match to free, and do very little to build readerships outside the Amazon ecosystem. Authors actively selling outside of Amazon tend not to be as dependent on the 99 cent price point, and thus the bulk of the thread doesn't actually apply to them.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Interesting discussion. Elizabeth brings up some very valid points, as have those who have responded. As I read the OP, what I saw was, not arrogance, but a lot of passion. She obviously has a lot of passion for what she does, and a passion for helping others. And I see a lot of passion in the responses, too, which always makes for a lively and thought provoking discussion. 

Having come from a marketing background (30+ years in one capacity or another), I thought I'd add my $.02. Although I am new to self-publishing and have a lot yet to learn about the publishing industry, there are a few things with regard to marketing and running a successful business that are true whether you sell books or widgets.

*Pricing:* Underpricing can be just as damaging as overpricing, and in many cases, selling higher priced products can be easier than selling lower priced items. A mistake I often see is people assuming that everybody is either broke or trying to save money. Everybody isn't. If that was true, Nordstrom's and Jaguar would have gone out of business a long time ago.

There are a lot of people in this world who have money and aren't afraid to spend it. What they are looking for is quality and value. They want their money's worth. If the quality is there, they will pay for it. It's not that people aren't willing to pay Nordstrom prices--it's that they're not willing to pay Nordstrom prices for Walmart quality. The same is true for books. That said, there is nothing wrong with Walmart or the people who shop there. You just need to understand that it's a different market with different expectations.

*Know your market:* It's important to know what your market (readers of your genre) are looking for and how much they are willing to pay. Are they looking for shorter stories, longer stories? Are they finicky and quick to call out typos? Do they love a good cliff hanger, do they hate cliffhangers? Is there a "sweet spot" in pricing? Is $.99 the norm or is $4.99 the norm?

*Study your competition:* The best way to know what works for your market is to study what the best sellers in that market are doing. That doesn't mean to copy the individual sellers. It means to look for the pattern, the formula that works, and apply it to your own work. If the majority of the best sellers are in the $4.99 range, shoot for that target. If they're all using loss leaders, it's pretty safe to assume that market expects that. If not, it may not be necessary. Test and test some more.

*Loss leaders work:* Loss leaders have been used for ages and ages because they work. The questions are--do you need to use them, is your audience expecting them, and how are you going to use them? What is the purpose? Have a strategy. Don't just do it because a bunch of other people told you to--do it because you've studied your market and have a specific plan.

Most importantly, understand that what works for me may not work for you, and what works for you may not work for the next person. Study your sales, know where they came from (to the best of your ability), and test, test, and test some more.

ETA: I wanted to add one more important thing with regard to studying your market. Never stop studying your market! If you study it enough, you will see the new trends coming before 90% of your competition.


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## anicolle (Dec 13, 2014)

Chiming in on Margaret's musings about app developers, that's exactly the case. I'm a writer / app developer, and the race to the bottom on pricing ended years ago. It has reached the point where the paid mobile app market has pretty much cratered over the past 18 months. I have reviews and nasty emails complaining that the free Lite version of one of my apps isn't fully-featured, and how dare I publish such useless garbage. I have people getting refunds, then turning around and uploading the app to pirate sites. Does wonders for one's motivation, as you might imagine!

Anyhow, my point is that the effectiveness of free isn't what it used to be in the app market, though you pretty much don't have another option these days. There are customers who will pay and appreciate paid apps, and at higher prices, but they're becoming a rare breed. The big advantage eBooks have over apps is that you typically don't have to keep maintaining them and adding features, and more 'free' customers doesn't result in a corresponding increase in support costs.

All the above are why I'm shifting my emphasis this year to my fiction writing efforts and away from apps  Sorry if I sidetracked the conversation too much. Just thought a perspective from another digital market might be helpful.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

vlmain said:
 

> Interesting discussion. Elizabeth brings up some very valid points, as have those who have responded. As I read the OP, what I saw was, not arrogance, but a lot of passion. She obviously has a lot of passion for what she does, and a passion for helping others. And I see a lot of passion in the responses, too, which always makes for a lively and thought provoking discussion.
> 
> Having come from a marketing background (30+ years in one capacity or another), I thought I'd add my $.02. Although I am new to self-publishing and have a lot yet to learn about the publishing industry, there are a few things with regard to marketing and running a successful business that are true whether you sell books or widgets.
> 
> ...


Why is it that I love this post so much, and yet in my thread all we do is argue? Let's make up&#8230;.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Generally those authors dependent on that price point primarily target Amazon's customers, so the revenue from other retailers becomes inconsequential. many authors only even bother with other vendors to get Amazon to price-match to free, and do very little to build readerships outside the Amazon ecosystem. Authors actively selling outside of Amazon tend not to be as dependent on the 99 cent price point, and thus the bulk of the thread doesn't actually apply to them.


That only underscores my comment prior to that one. If the bulk of this thread is for Amazon exclusive authors, then the .99 price point is even MORE lucrative than the .60 per unit (or, if Elizabeth prefers, .50 per unit) I mentioned in your quoted comment here. I wish I knew how to post a screen shot so i could show you what I'm talking about, because even the .76 number is wayyyy low compared to an average day. I'm looking at one KU .99 title that has 10 borrows so far today vs. 2 buys. How much am I making per unit? (10 x 1.33= 13.30 2 x .35= .70. 12 units netted me $14.00. that's $1.16 per. That's more than triple the .35 per unit number being used to support this theory). The foundation this whole thread is built on is broken.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

gorvnice said:


> Why is it that I love this post so much, and yet in my thread all we do is argue? Let's make up....


lol I do love you.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2015)

I think about it this way:

Was Look Homeward Angel, the first book by Thomas Wolfe, given a special 99-cent price because he was unknown and had to "build" his audience?
Or Scruples by Krantz?
How about Jackie Susann's first book?
Consider Gone With the Wind, or To Kill a Mocking Bird. Both first books by new authors. Since the two authors never wrote another novel, then if those first books by unknowns had been discounted, they would forever be known as 99-centers or freebies.
Microsoft, or Adobe, etc., do not discount their work just because they are downloaded or on a 5-cent disc.
But we poor writers can be a strange breed.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

anicolle said:


> Chiming in on Margaret's musings about app developers, that's exactly the case. I'm a writer / app developer, and the race to the bottom on pricing ended years ago. It has reached the point where the paid mobile app market has pretty much cratered over the past 18 months. I have reviews and nasty emails complaining that the free Lite version of one of my apps isn't fully-featured, and how dare I publish such useless garbage. I have people getting refunds, then turning around and uploading the app to pirate sites. Does wonders for one's motivation, as you might imagine!
> 
> Anyhow, my point is that the effectiveness of free isn't what it used to be in the app market, though you pretty much don't have another option these days. There are customers who will pay and appreciate paid apps, and at higher prices, but they're becoming a rare breed. The big advantage eBooks have over apps is that you typically don't have to keep maintaining them and adding features, and more 'free' customers doesn't result in a corresponding increase in support costs.
> 
> All the above are why I'm shifting my emphasis this year to my fiction writing efforts and away from apps  Sorry if I sidetracked the conversation too much. Just thought a perspective from another digital market might be helpful.


The most I paid for an app was $7.99. It was worth every penny. Actually I paid twice that because I originally got it at Amazon and later got it from google play. I don't want Amazon on my tablet. 
Now I do think that retail apps should be free because they are trying to sell me something.
Oh and if you are the designer of floss checklist please pm me.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

anicolle said:


> Chiming in on Margaret's musings about app developers, that's exactly the case. I'm a writer / app developer, and the race to the bottom on pricing ended years ago. It has reached the point where the paid mobile app market has pretty much cratered over the past 18 months. I have reviews and nasty emails complaining that the free Lite version of one of my apps isn't fully-featured, and how dare I publish such useless garbage. I have people getting refunds, then turning around and uploading the app to pirate sites. Does wonders for one's motivation, as you might imagine!
> 
> Anyhow, my point is that the effectiveness of free isn't what it used to be in the app market, though you pretty much don't have another option these days. There are customers who will pay and appreciate paid apps, and at higher prices, but they're becoming a rare breed. The big advantage eBooks have over apps is that you typically don't have to keep maintaining them and adding features, and more 'free' customers doesn't result in a corresponding increase in support costs.
> 
> All the above are why I'm shifting my emphasis this year to my fiction writing efforts and away from apps  Sorry if I sidetracked the conversation too much. Just thought a perspective from another digital market might be helpful.


Yes, it is helpful. We are not alone in this struggle to make ourselves visible yet still make money for the work we do.

There is a scheduling app that I get every year. Pretty pricey. It was the free app of the day back in October, I think. Obviously, they were only giving away the last few months of the year as a sample. I'm guessing that it wasn't successful because they no longer list the app on Amazon. They sell it from their own website. It could very well be that Amazon is no longer a profitable outlet for them.

My own efforts are going to the other outlets since I actually sell in those places. I doubt if I'll ever make a "living wage" at writing but I enjoy what I'm doing. Here's to Indie Prawndom!!!


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2015)

Chrisbwritin said:


> That only underscores my comment prior to that one. If the bulk of this thread is for Amazon exclusive authors, then the .99 price point is even MORE lucrative than the .60 per unit (or, if Elizabeth prefers, .50 per unit) I mentioned in your quoted comment here. I wish I knew how to post a screen shot so i could show you what I'm talking about, because even the .76 number is wayyyy low compared to an average day. I'm looking at one KU .99 title that has 10 borrows so far today vs. 2 buys. How much am I making per unit? (10 x 1.33= 13.30 2 x .35= .70. 12 units netted me $14.00. that's $1.16 per. That's more than triple the .35 per unit number being used to support this theory). The foundation this whole thread is built on is broken.


I would argue if your income is dependent on KU, THAT is broken. KU is not sustainable. It is a matter of basic accounting. As an ebook selling tool, Amazon cannot forever pay $1 or $2 per borrow on 99 cent books. Amazon WILL do so in the short term to build a customer base. But eventually something will have to crack. Despite the fact that Amazon is the world's biggest bookseller, book sale revenue actually accounts for a small portion of their profits. KU is being propped up by profits from other parts of Amazon's business model. By itself, it is not sustainable. Which means by itself, it can't provide a long-term living. Think about it, sure $1.33 x 10 borrows is great compared to 35 cents a sale. But it was only a few months ago that the average borrow was over $2. Your income just got cut in half because of Amazon's arbitrary way of determining how much they are going to pay you. In the short term it is all "WAHOO! I earned $1.33 on a 99 cent book!" and maybe people feel like they are 'getting over' on Amazon. But in the long term, you don't even know what you will be paid month to month, because your payment is based on how generous Amazon decides to be with the pool of money being spread out across...well...everyone, as opposed to the actual work you do to generate sales. It is one thing to be able to say "I need to make X number of sales to pay my bills." It is another to say "I had X number of borrows, I won't how much I'll get?"

I guess my point is imagine if you went to work every day and didn't know how much your boss was paying you an hour. Your pay at the end of the week was based off a giant pool split between you and every other employee, and how much of that pool you got wasn't based on your actual work, but some Byzantine algorithm that determined how much value you brought to the company. And it was constantly a moving target, because there were always more employees entering the company but the company wasn't always increasing the pool at the same rate.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Deanna Chase said:


> Actually no. At D2D the royalty on 99 cent title is .59 at Nook, Apple, and Kobo.


If I'm not mistaken, Apple actually pays 70% on $0.99 titles if you go direct.

"From the start, Apple has paid 70% at all ebook prices from $0.99 to $199.99, the best ebook royalties among all the major retailers."

Source: http://www.teleread.com/ebooks/amazon-would-be-content-with-30-margin-if-hachette-e-books-were-9-99/

Which might make a difference in terms of making a living on 99-cent books.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Adding to Julie's post.  I know a company that on bonuses went from X amount of what the store made in total profits to what each person individually did.  That killed some people's paychecks.  They decided salaried people did not get bonuses just hourly people.    And it can vary widely.  Like by hundreds of dollars.
So please treat your borrows like a bonus.


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## anicolle (Dec 13, 2014)

Correct. Apple takes 30% for eBooks if you're selling direct through them, the same as for apps.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Impressionable new writers seeing advice about pricing high is the reason why I'm passionate about getting the word out about what works. Pricing high as a strategy works for underserved niches, but if you're in a popular genre, you have to do what others in your genre are doing. I would hazard a guess that the writers who come here frustrated over lack of income probably won't be helped by upping their prices, because price probably isn't the issue. It could be the blurb, lack of promotion, not very good product (sorry, but that might be true in some cases), trying to make it in a dead genre, any number of things. But the fact that they price at .99 is probably the least of their worries.

The strategy of pricing high and not using loss leaders has been debunked so many times by successful writers, yet the mindset persists. If you can make it work, I congratulate you. You're an outlier or you are in a super-hungry niche. But many more writers make it work by strategically using .99 and permafree to sell their series. 

And it drives me bonkers to read about classic writers selling high. It's like this post I read about Beyonce's strategies, and if she can do such and such, why can't everybody? Because she's freaking Beyonce, that's why. Extreme outlier. 

Writers would do well to ignore anecdotal tales of outliers and concentrate on what works for the masses. That would mean doing research in your genre to see what everyone else is doing, price-wise, to succeed.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

anniejocoby said:


> Impressionable new writers seeing advice about pricing high is the reason why I'm passionate about getting the word out about what works. Pricing high as a strategy works for underserved niches, but if you're in a popular genre, you have to do what others in your genre are doing. I would hazard a guess that the writers who come here frustrated over lack of income probably won't be helped by upping their prices, because price probably isn't the issue. It could be the blurb, lack of promotion, not very good product (sorry, but that might be true in some cases), trying to make it in a dead genre, any number of things. But the fact that they price at .99 is probably the least of their worries.
> 
> The strategy of pricing high and not using loss leaders has been debunked so many times by successful writers, yet the mindset persists. If you can make it work, I congratulate you. You're an outlier or you are in a super-hungry niche. But many more writers make it work by strategically using .99 and permafree to sell their series.
> 
> ...


This time a million.

I would have thought that the lesson from years of struggle wasn't "I have found the path! Deviation will be dealt with swiftly and severely!"  But rather "Keep looking for your path. There is no one way, but many. Find what works for your books and your circumstance." That might mean 99c for a day, a month or a year. It might mean free or or never free. There are no absolutes. Anyone telling you differently is trying to convince themselves.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I would argue if your income is dependent on KU, THAT is broken. KU is not sustainable. It is a matter of basic accounting. As an ebook selling tool, Amazon cannot forever pay $1 or $2 per borrow on 99 cent books. Amazon WILL do so in the short term to build a customer base. But eventually something will have to crack. Despite the fact that Amazon is the world's biggest bookseller, book sale revenue actually accounts for a small portion of their profits. KU is being propped up by profits from other parts of Amazon's business model. By itself, it is not sustainable. Which means by itself, it can't provide a long-term living. Think about it, sure $1.33 x 10 borrows is great compared to 35 cents a sale. But it was only a few months ago that the average borrow was over $2. Your income just got cut in half because of Amazon's arbitrary way of determining how much they are going to pay you. In the short term it is all "WAHOO! I earned $1.33 on a 99 cent book!" and maybe people feel like they are 'getting over' on Amazon. But in the long term, you don't even know what you will be paid month to month, because your payment is based on how generous Amazon decides to be with the pool of money being spread out across...well...everyone, as opposed to the actual work you do to generate sales. It is one thing to be able to say "I need to make X number of sales to pay my bills." It is another to say "I had X number of borrows, I won't how much I'll get?"
> 
> I guess my point is imagine if you went to work every day and didn't know how much your boss was paying you an hour. Your pay at the end of the week was based off a giant pool split between you and every other employee, and how much of that pool you got wasn't based on your actual work, but some Byzantine algorithm that determined how much value you brought to the company. And it was constantly a moving target, because there were always more employees entering the company but the company wasn't always increasing the pool at the same rate.


Again, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Julie. But my income ISN'T dependent on KU. My income is dependent on ME, my writing and my ability to adapt. As is everyone else's in this game. I have lots of revenue streams and I'm constantly tweaking and changing to make sure I continue to do so. I still have a publisher for one pen name, I dabble here and there and all around with others, trying things, pressing trends etc, and when i find something that works, I go balls to the wall (while making sure my less risky, more consistent sales are nurtured through monthly BB ads, quarterly releases with my publisher, etc.) I'm a pretty smart cookie, if I do say so myself, so the concept of packing all my eggs into this unstable basket when I'm the sole income source for a family of 7 would be outlandish. But I'm not risk averse, either. If I see a big, fat, golden goose, I'm okay with taking a little side trip and busting my hump to squeeze as many eggs as I can out of that puppy before it dies. Will KU last forever? Dunno. Doesn't matter. I won't be doing the same thing I am right now next year, regardless. And all the math-ish information you have here about losing money on borrows for 2.99 is exactly that. Math-ish. It would take a lot to convince me that those borrows would've been buys.

But then, this thread isn't about the viability of KU. That's been beaten to death on this forum. This post is titled "You're not going to make a living on .99 cents." I am here to say that I AM. People ARE. And there is plenty of data to support that it's a very viable strategy if it's done right. Suggesting that we all turn our noses up at it (and/or KU) without exploring ways to make it work FOR us, for as long as it's viable, seems shortsighted. Should the dotcommer have passed just because the bottom was going to eventually fall out? Should a person not purchase real estate, or the investor not buy stocks in case the market crashes (and it will. It ALWAYS does.)? I'm not an artist. I like my books. I like my characters. I love my job. I would feel empty if I wasn't writing. But what I'm providing is a commodity, and I'm a business woman first because that's what pays for my children's college educations and keeps the lights on. To me, good business is when you keep your ear to the ground, see a fantastic opportunity, you do your due diligence, and then you strike. That's what I'm doing with KU. That's what I'm doing with .99. Believe me, when the ride is over, you will see nothing but my shoes and the dust I kick up behind me on the way out.


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## bberntson (Oct 24, 2013)

I've been pricing my short stories (around 50 pages) at .99.  My novellas (around 100) at 1.99.  Everything around 200 plus pages is 2.99, but I'm still doing free giveaways.  I have a lot published, but much of that I haven't even marketed yet.  I was thinking of doing a countdown deal lately for Castle Juliet because it has the most reviews and the most positive reviews, but with KU, I wonder if it's really going to be effective.  My goal was just to give it some visibility while hopefully climbing the rankings.  

I appreciate all the information posted here, though.  I don't feel savvy enough with the business aspect all the time to be able to know what's best for what works I have.  I am a very hybrid author, doing horror, fantasy, YA, and urban fantasy.  So, I just cycle through, hoping for the best.  I had a better month in December than I had in a long time.  I'm still not making a whole lot of money, and am certainly not making back what I put into it, but I still look at it like a long-term investment anyway.  I don't know if that's naive, stupid, or reasonable, but I guess it's the best I got for now. 

Thanks for the post.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

vlmain said:


> Interesting discussion. Elizabeth brings up some very valid points, as have those who have responded. As I read the OP, what I saw was, not arrogance, but a lot of passion. She obviously has a lot of passion for what she does, and a passion for helping others. And I see a lot of passion in the responses, too, which always makes for a lively and thought provoking discussion.
> 
> Having come from a marketing background (30+ years in one capacity or another), I thought I'd add my $.02. Although I am new to self-publishing and have a lot yet to learn about the publishing industry, there are a few things with regard to marketing and running a successful business that are true whether you sell books or widgets.
> 
> ...


THIS.

When I started out in 2012, I had no idea about my market. I floundered around for months before I got any clue about price as a tactic and I'm sure it meant lower sales for my books than if I had priced my books competitively. I priced my full-length PNR books (80K- 120K words) at $4.99 but I was in KDPS and used free days to give away massive numbers of my first book - probably 30K in the first couple of months. I am sure it helped get readers for my second. I held occasional 99c sales on the other two books in my first series but I didn't like the idea of giving away the other two very often since I frequently held 99c sales for the first and every 90 days I gave away a whack load of the first book as a lost leader. I didn't price lower out of principle. I felt my books were good enough to compete with a Vente Cafe Mocha at Starbucks. Now, I have only sold 10K of that series in 2 years, so it's not a huge seller and the income is certainly not life changing. Maybe if I priced my books all at 99c, I would have sold more, but it's too late now to take that test. I was just starting out, a total newbie, and did no marketing other than among my friends on Twitter and Facebook but I did read JA Konrath. I did no paid marketing for months after I launched although I did try to get readers by joining groups and offering ARCs to bloggers. I could't have lived off my income from that series but I was still able to get readers for it and pay a few bills with the proceeds each month so that made me happy.

Price is a tactic used to sell books. You have to know your market to know what price works best and you have to know where you are in terms of your career. Period. In some markets, 99c for serials is the norm while in others, a higher price point is.

Know your market. Govern your tactics accordingly.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2015)

anniejocoby said:


> The strategy of pricing high and not using loss leaders has been debunked so many times by successful writers, yet the mindset persists.


I'm pretty sure that the OP's very first post, in nice* bold letters*, was rather specific about this thread being about not pricing *everything* at 99 cents. Nobody is saying not to use loss leaders. I don't think anyone is saying _never_ use 99 cents. I don't think anyone is saying never use free. Methinks the points was "don't use it as a crutch."

And I think people don't understand what a loss leader is. Loss leader is a RETAIL TERM, not a MANUFACTURING term. Loss Leaders are used by RETAILERS to drive foot traffic into the store and increase overall cart size. i.e. Walmart loses $1 for every widget it sells as a loss leader, but makes up for it because all of those people who come into the store to get the widget at a ridiculously low price end up buying $50 worth of other stuff that has a high profit margin. The term means you take a loss on one item in order to gain profits on higher profit items. Loss leaders benefit retailers, not necessarily manufacturers. They don't often build brand loyalty to the product. They build brand loyalty to the store.

Manufacturers don't use loss leaders in the way people are using the term here. I work in contract packaging. That free sample you get when you buy the full size product? It's production cost was calculated into the final price. That "trial size" you bought for 99 cents? By volume, you actually overpaid per ounce compared to the full size. The great deal you got on that three-for-the-price of two package? That packaging was specifically designed to make it cheaper to produce than the three individual units. Even when they give you something for "free" it is never free. You are paying in the form of information. You filled out a survey, gave them an email address, followed them on Facebook. They got something valuable out of you, even if it wasn't money.

I would never tell someone to _never_ use free or 99 cents because that would make me both wrong and a hypocrite. But I think too many authors don't maximize their own work and are too quick to depend on free/99 cents because it is safe and easy. They make their first book permafree, cross their fingers, and hope Amazon's algorithms work magic. But you have to give away an enormous quantity of books in this way to get any momentum. And while it might work, it isn't maximized. It isn't the most efficient method. Great, you gave away 10,000 books on Amazon and gained 500 loyal readers who will now actively seek out your next book. But maybe you could have given that book away to people who signed up for your newsletter instead. Maybe you only got 3,000 sign ups, but now you have a mailing list with 3,000 people. And these are 3,000 who are actually interested in YOU and not just randomly downloading every free book in their bookbub newsletter.

My greater concern regarding a lot of writers is not so much the low price, is that they are not maintaining ownership of their work. They are not publishers taking chance on new books. They are Amazon content providers trying to pander to Amazon's algorithms in hopes of striking gold. They are feeding the Amazon content machine with tons of low cost content, which is great for Amazon. But in the long term, it may not be the best for the publishers themselves. We are training writers to function like assembly lines; churning out products in "hot" genres to feed Amazon's content needs for readers that are downloading anything and everything but not reading all that much of it, instead of writing the books they want to write and then going out there and finding their own readers who want them. Only 28% of adults in the U.S. read 11 or more books a year, and 25% of adults didn't read a single book. . One need not be a statistician to recognize that people are downloading more books than they will actually read. So a great deal of those free and cheap books are being wasted on consumers who will never use them. Dependency on this method is simply inefficient for reaching your real readers.

I'm rambling off topic a little, so I apologize. Conversations like this, however, simply reinforce my fear that indies have become the thing they always accused publishers of being: looking for guaranteed bestsellers with no willingness to take risks on new or experimental works. The fact that most of this advice for pricing is contingent on "series" is itself telling. The message is that if you want to be a success indie, you must write a series, it must be in specific genres, and it must have a permafree. Because that is what all the "successful" people are doing. But I think we need a better definition of "successful" beyond "Amazon best seller" because otherwise we're no different than the big publishers, pushing writers into "what sells" instead of "what they want to write."


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

As for apps, LOVE the Lego ones and will pay up to $6.99 for them in the Apple store. We BUY where I live like the guy in marketing stated. We pay for books, movies, apps, music, etc. I don't turn up my nose at free if it is something really good for free, but I never take just anything *because* it is free. Free doesn't always equal awesome.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm pretty sure that the OP's very first post, in nice* bold letters*, was rather specific about this thread being about not pricing *everything* at 99 cents. Nobody is saying not to use loss leaders. I don't think anyone is saying _never_ use 99 cents. I don't think anyone is saying never use free. Methinks the points was "don't use it as a crutch."
> 
> And I think people don't understand what a loss leader is. Loss leader is a RETAIL TERM, not a MANUFACTURING term. Loss Leaders are used by RETAILERS to drive foot traffic into the store and increase overall cart size. i.e. Walmart loses $1 for every widget it sells as a loss leader, but makes up for it because all of those people who come into the store to get the widget at a ridiculously low price end up buying $50 worth of other stuff that has a high profit margin. The term means you take a loss on one item in order to gain profits on higher profit items. Loss leaders benefit retailers, not necessarily manufacturers. They don't often build brand loyalty to the product. They build brand loyalty to the store.
> 
> ...


5 stars, + a million a million times!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Price first book to get me in the door.  If you are good, I don't mind paying $3.99 or $4.99 for your next books.  Heck I save up for some books.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm pretty sure that the OP's very first post, in nice* bold letters*, was rather specific about this thread being about not pricing *everything* at 99 cents. Nobody is saying not to use loss leaders. I don't think anyone is saying _never_ use 99 cents. I don't think anyone is saying never use free. Methinks the points was "don't use it as a crutch."


The problem is that she immediately murdered that caveat with the 'IF YOU HAVE MORE THAN ONE PERMAFREE OR 99 CENT WHY!!!' thing. Note that she doens't ask why you're making them ALL 99 cent, just more than one. From that moment on, it is completely fair to see the post as an attempted indictment of all loss leaders save for one miracle bullet.



> And I think people don't understand what a loss leader is. Loss leader is a RETAIL TERM, not a MANUFACTURING term. Loss Leaders are used by RETAILERS to drive foot traffic into the store and increase overall cart size.


Most people here's primary retailer pretends it isn't one and makes us do all the actual retailing work, from promotion to sales while they sit on their fat butt and take 30%.



> I'm rambling off topic a little, so I apologize. Conversations like this, however, simply reinforce my fear that indies have become the thing they always accused publishers of being: looking for guaranteed bestsellers with no willingness to take risks on new or experimental works.


Well there is a thread on this board that is exactly that and the response has run the gamut between 'Hallelujahl' and 'Testify!', and another that was about writing what you love that go straight up hijacked by the same band, so yeah, you're right.


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## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

You can price your book at whatever price you want and do it for whatever reason you want - you can price it based on how you value your work, you can use some time/word count or whatever calculation, and you can even use price to claim agency or ownership. However if one bases their price on those things or other whims mentioned in this thread, instead of basing their price on their market subsegment's supply and demand equation. many authors are going to enjoy sole ownership of their book for a long time.

Pick a price, any price? People who so declares are under priced are... oh they are a whole bunch of things. True is, people can rant about how authors can pick a price all they want; that still isn't going to make the book sell at that price. Contrary to what seems to be belief, best selling authors in the competitive subsegments didn't get together and say. _"How about we add that we all undervalue our work to our blurbs cause our prices are a lot lower in this genre than in the others? Let's all write about how we decided to race to the bottom together so the writers in the other market subsegments will stop saying we price like this because we are idiots who don't realize we could charge more. K?"_ No, that is not what happened and that is why a lot of authors are getting a little testy with some of the absolutes being declared. What happened is economic theory. Books are not special snowflakes. Without the supportive pricing collusion that has gone on a long time, and apparently left all lot of authors thinking books are different from widgets, just like we see in the free market where indies determine price, we'd see traditional published books are like every other widget. Without the collusion, we'd see pricing driven by supply and demand like all the other widgets' pricing is. No amount of anything is going to change that. Book price = supply and demand equation

However supply and demand isn't consistent across the book market. The subsegments that make up the overall market differ a great deal from another and these differences are going to affect price theory. No argument is going to change it, supply and demand is or is one of the biggest influences on price. So although a one size fits all pricing mechanism might be reasonable if supply and demand was consistent across all the market subsegments/niches/genres, when we consider these type of pricing mechanisms, we have to acknowledge that supply and demand isn't consistent across the subsegments. While some subsegments have similarly weighed supply and demand equations, some have very different equations.

Because the equations are different within the market subsegments, applying the same price theory across the board isn't going to work. For example, while a new author could publish 2 in-depth, detailed reference books on nuclear physics and sell them at $9.99 without the demand side of the equation balking at the price, a contemporary romance author trying to do the same thing is going to have a very different experience. Regardless of if these 2 different authors are new authors, publish at the same pace, and have the same amount of works available, they shouldn't and are not going to price the same. None of the broad based market factors they both share are going to be the ultimate influence on their individual prices. What should and will be their influence is the supply and demand equation within their market subsegment. Subsegment conditions, rather than overall market condition, are going to dictate business models and different conditions are going to result in different models. When the nuclear physics author is focusing on working around demand driven issues, the contemporary romance author is focusing on working around supply driven issues. Just as most of the components of their business model are going to differ, the proper application of price theory within their individual subsegment is going to be very different too.

Now yes, that's an extreme example but it is extreme to point out that while we are all operating within the same broad ebook market, we are all also operating individually within different subsegment. Each of these market subsegments have their own supply and demand equations. IMO the best business models are going to be the models where the specific subsegment supply and demand equation plays a much, much bigger role in proper price determination than any dictate based on overall market activity does.

People can argue pricing absolutes all they want. However when doing so, it's almost as if some forget that one can set whatever price they want for whatever reason they want. No problem, set any price you want. However the only way the book is going to sell at that price is if the price is reasonable when the relevant market's supply and demand equation is considered.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Price first book to get me in the door. If you are good, I don't mind paying $3.99 or $4.99 for your next books. Heck I save up for some books.


Just wanted you to know I PM'd you the royalty results from Excessica. You asked me to let you know how I did. I'm very happy with them. I didn't get many Amazon sales from that payment period, but I guess I sold well directly from her site.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Elizabeth,

Thank you for pointing out to the rest of us that we can price high if we start to write in an underserved genre.

Everyone,

Yes, the rest of us _can_ do what Elizabeth did, but please let's not all pick Jane Austin Fan Fiction! 

If we combine Elizabeth's pointers in this thread with gorvnice's pointers in the 'succeed in the current market' thread and heed that advice, then we should all be full-time writers before too long.

Arguing about it gains us nothing.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Arguing about it gains us nothing.


Arguing about it (politely) gains us everything. Critical thinking is far too rare on this board.

Never ever be afraid to question someone just because they say they sell well or because they have a loud voice or because you like their book covers. Question it all. That is the only way you'll find out *your* truth. And never expect your truth to be everyone else's.

Thank the baby jebus there are people here who are willing to challenge ideas. This Bud's for you. Okay, not a Bud, because - gross. But this Stella Artois is for you!


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Monique said:


> Arguing about it (politely) gains us everything. Critical thinking is far too rare on this board.
> 
> Never ever be afraid to question someone just because they say they sell well or because they have a loud voice or because you like their book covers. Question it all. That is the only way you'll find out *your* truth. And never expect your truth to be everyone else's.
> 
> Thank the baby jebus there are people here who are willing to challenge ideas. This Bud's for you. Okay, not a Bud, because - gross. But this Stella Artois is for you!


I agree, Monique. I may talk loud, but I enjoy being challenged and I challenge others as well.

There are no sacred members here from my point of view. Even if I tend to agree with Phoenix Sullivan, or even if I have a strong point of view--I think the discussion is helpful if people are truly intending to gain an understanding of ebooks and how it all is functioning.

We're all here, supposedly, because we write and publish and want to improve our understanding. The more smart, successful, artistic, brilliant people come here and engage, the better we will all learn.

That's how I think about it, anyhow. And I welcome the presence of those who think I am full of it and call me on it.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Monique said:


> Arguing about it (politely) gains us everything. Critical thinking is far too rare on this board.
> 
> Thank the baby jebus there are people here who are willing to challenge ideas. This Bud's for you. Okay, not a Bud, because - gross. But this Stella Artois is for you!


Yes. To BOTH of these statements. *glugs beer*


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I have multiple titles at .99 and 8 perma-free titles.

I made almost 50k last month.  

I'm good with that, even if it doesn't count as a living in Elizabeth's book.


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## Colhane (Dec 20, 2014)

I just read all six pages of this thread... I need to have a good cry and a nap.

I launched my first book about two weeks ago and it's hitting 100 sales/downloads. I priced it at .99 and may keep it there as it is the first in a post-apocalyptic series, I am a brand new indie, and I want to see if I can get people hooked.  

I  published the second volume in the series last night and also priced it at .99 because I know most of my initial sales are friends and family. I haven't enrolled that one in KU. I don't plan to keep the rest of the series at .99.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Awesome post, Someone. And it goes beyond the supply and demand of different subsegments. Every individual _book_ has its own supply and demand equation. Every book has a sort of "appeal score" that comes from the premise, writing, packaging, reviews, buzz, price, etc. If you've found you've written a book with a ton of appeal, then it's likely to keep selling even at higher prices. Hooray!

But if it turns out you've got something that doesn't have much appeal... well, the first thing I'd do is change the parts that can be changed easily, i.e. the packaging. If that still doesn't work, then the next natural step is to try a lower price. Even $0.99 or free. Whatever it takes to jack up its appeal and keep finding new readers.

That appeal score isn't static, either. It can shrink due to changes in the market, the recommendation algos, audience exhaustion, whatever. And, though I think this is much more rare, sometimes it can grow over time, too.

And if appeal/demand isn't static, then your prices probably shouldn't be, either.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Price first book to get me in the door. If you are good, I don't mind paying $3.99 or $4.99 for your next books. Heck I save up for some books.


I agree. It's something to do with PERCEIVED value vs FREE ( people sense its not worth a dime ) How often have you seen The Hunger Games part 1 - FREE? ZEROOOOOoooooooo times.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

No Cat said:


> I have multiple titles at .99 and 8 perma-free titles.
> 
> I made almost 50k last month.
> 
> I'm good with that, even if it doesn't count as a living in Elizabeth's book.


Holy cow. Let me guess EROTICA writer lol How many titles do you have out total?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

kalel said:


> Holy cow. Let me guess EROTICA writer lol How many titles do you have out total?


Nope. No erotica. I write science fiction and fantasy.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

No Cat said:


> I have multiple titles at .99 and 8 perma-free titles.
> 
> I made almost 50k last month.
> 
> I'm good with that, even if it doesn't count as a living in Elizabeth's book.


That comes from previous times when things where a bit different and better? So what worked then might not work NOW as much?

How many people are now launching at 99 cents and are repeating stuff. No wonder it doesn't work as well. You got in at the right time and used the right strategy. Congrats, you will sell better than average. But doesn't mean your strategy is right at the moment or will be in the future.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

No Cat said:


> Nope. No erotica. I write science fiction and fantasy.


I got berated by the OP for having too many free and 99c books on my front page, and I'm thinking I need to price further down. If it worked for Apple and still works for HP (I mean, the printers are virtually free, but have you seen the prices for the ink? AARRGH!) then it might work for me. You give people lots of easy entries until you can afford not to.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

RBC said:


> That comes from previous times when things where a bit different and better? So what worked then might not work NOW as much?
> 
> How many people are now launching at 99 cents and are repeating stuff. No wonder it doesn't work as well. You got in at the right time and used the right strategy. Congrats, you will sell better than average. But doesn't mean your strategy is right at the moment or will be in the future.


Not for me. Up until Feb of 2014, I priced all my short stories at 2.99, my novellas at 3.99 and 4.99, and my novels at 5.99 and 7.99. I had nothing free or .99. And I made very little money.

So for me, it was dropping prices, putting a bunch of stuff free, etc that got my sales rolling. All in 2014. So no. Not erotica. Not historical data. I am talking real numbers with current data in the current market, at least in the science fiction and fantasy genres.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

No Cat said:


> Not for me. Up until Feb of 2014, I priced all my short stories at 2.99, my novellas at 3.99 and 4.99, and my novels at 5.99 and 7.99. I had nothing free or .99. And I made very little money.
> 
> So for me, it was dropping prices, putting a bunch of stuff free, etc that got my sales rolling. All in 2014. So no. Not erotica. Not historical data. I am talking real numbers with current data in the current market, at least in the science fiction and fantasy genres.


Elizabeth demanded data and there it is. It also debunks a lot of myths on kboards about which genres are the ones to pursue for big sales. A big yes thank you to the No Cat. Especially as I branch (in writing terms) into my first love (in reading terms) of SFF.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

No Cat said:


> Not for me. Up until Feb of 2014, I priced all my short stories at 2.99, my novellas at 3.99 and 4.99, and my novels at 5.99 and 7.99. I had nothing free or .99. And I made very little money.
> 
> So for me, it was dropping prices, putting a bunch of stuff free, etc that got my sales rolling. All in 2014. So no. Not erotica. Not historical data. I am talking real numbers with current data in the current market, at least in the science fiction and fantasy genres.


But Feb is almost a year ago now.. so... it's looong time since then.. What works in your favour is getting more and more readers so that's more sales too.. Email list and all. You're rolling the ball and making a snowball!

Anyway, good work!!


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Elizabeth demanded data and there it is. It also debunks a lot of myths on kboards about which genres are the ones to pursue for big sales. A big yes thank you to the No Cat. Especially as I branch (in writing terms) into my first love (in reading terms) of SFF.


You're oversimplifying stuff. If No Cat launched a book now, her first at 99 cents it would probably be lesser results than when she started year ago... Judge not just numbers, but context in which they were set (when it started, how many books, email list size etc..). It's not simple as just numbers..


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

RBC said:


> You're oversimplifying stuff. If No Cat launched a book now, her first at 99 cents it would probably be lesser results than when she started year ago... Judge not just numbers, but context in which they were set (when it started, how many books, email list size etc..). It's not simple as just numbers..


My bestselling series launched in August with a .99 book. In a subgenre I had no other books in. Seriously. That one book helped turn everything around for me and has sold almost 50,000 copies in 5 months. Not a long time ago at all. Post KU. (and it isn't in KU)

So dislike my data all you want but please don't try to fit it to some narrative. It is what it is. I launched a series with a .99 book recently and have done very well, thanks. In my opinion, if you write good books and have a plan for what you are doing, using .99 is still very effective.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

kalel said:


> I agree. It's something to do with PERCEIVED value vs FREE ( people sense its not worth a dime ) How often have you seen The Hunger Games part 1 - FREE? ZEROOOOOoooooooo times.


No wait it was 99 cents or 1.99 the other day.
Free gets me in the door faster lol.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

*stares incredulously* *ottyottyottyotty*

There is literally nothing anyone can say that is going to change some of the minds on this loop. Not even empirical evidence is cutting the mustard. I just...don't know what else to say. You guys are right. .99 is a terrible model and no one makes a living doing it. Except the people that do. But those people are only making it because they were making it before some ever-changing and mystical point in time somewhere between 2012 and some time after February of 2014. Except the ones that weren't. If anything, the .99 model makes MORE sense after July 2014 because KU has made our borrows worth 1.33 rather than .99 at Amazon equaling a .35 return. Still more visibility. Still impulse price-point. Only now, more $ per unit. The latter is not an opinion. It's fact.
Because math.

*scrubs hand over face* *slowly backs out of room*


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## Ancient Lawyer (Jul 1, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'm a nobody and a prawn. I have to give stuff for free or people don't buy. Now that could mean my work sucks or whatever. The SFWA and those sales that qualified me obviously didn't think so. Or it could be a thing of visibility. I prefer the latter. I'm not complaining about sales. I would like to sell more and I'm doing stuff *I* found works for selling more.


I'm seconding this. I need one book permafree at least to get any kind of traction - or visibility. I'm a prawn too. I would much rather charge more for the books but most of the time they're simply invisible.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

RBC said:


> How many people are now launching at 99 cents and are repeating stuff. No wonder it doesn't work as well. You got in at the right time and used the right strategy.


I know some people still are still starting out and using this tactic successfully.



> Congrats, you will sell better than average. But doesn't mean your strategy is right at the moment or will be in the future.


That's the whole point, though. What works for one person is never universal advice. Try different stuff. Mess around with all sorts of marketing strategies while you improve your craft, and see what works for you.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'm a nobody and a prawn.


By any standards, I'm far more crustacean than you: I have only two books published (and only _one_ self-published).



Patty Jansen said:


> I have to give stuff for free or people don't buy.


How do you know this? (Please forgive me: I don't mean the question to sound like a "challenge". I appreciate that you may well have a good and valid answer. It's "just a question"!).

I'm not criticising you: I'm simply suggesting that probably you wouldn't try pricing at at $9.99 because you "already know it wouldn't work"?

I was in that position, too, and felt that.

Someone with huge experience of both trade and self-publishing sat me down and gave me a long lecture on marketing and publishing and changed my mind.

She was right and I was wrong.

My books sell strongly at $9.99. At $0.99 on Kindle, I'd have to make twenty times as many sales, for the same money. That's certainly not going to happen!

I'm not even discussing "free" (other than to acknowledge that I know it apparently works, in some markets, for some authors).


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

The reason (or one of them) $0.99 works on Amazon is visibility. The more books you sell, the higher your rank, the more visible you are, which leads to more sales. So higher prices may make you more royalty income, but if your book is in a super competitive genre, it's going to start sinking and soon become invisible. This is why Elizabeth can command high prices in her niche, but many romance authors cannot.

Rue


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

zoe tate said:


> By any standards, I'm far more crustacean than you: I have only two books published (and only _one_ self-published).
> 
> How do you know this? (Please forgive me: I don't mean the question to sound like a "challenge". I appreciate that you may well have a good and valid answer. It's "just a question"!).
> 
> ...


I HAVE priced high. I HAVE had no freebies. The month before I did the freebies, I sold TWENTY books on Amazon. Twenty whole books. Meanwhile, I was selling 200+ a month at Kobo. Then Kobogate happened and my sales there vanished overnight. I later discovered that my expletive-laden, dark fantasy book ended up in the "religious" category. URGH.

Anyway, I totally agree with you that getting sales at Amazon is about volume, and that is exactly what lowering the price (or making books free) is meant to achieve: getting VOLUME, so that you end in alsobots.

I recently did a search for my books on Yasiv, and my author page on Google, and you know what?

- None of my books were in ANYONE's alsobots
- My author page wasn't mentioned in ANYONE's "people also bought books by" section

This is what volume sales are meant to achieve: get books up there, so that you get a positive feedback loop happening.

As of an hour ago, I dropped all my prices.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

It depends, too, on what your benchmark is. For me, if my main series was selling 5-10 a day each, I'd probably pitch a fit. For me, that would mean I need to refocus and write something else, because clearly there isn't enough for me in that genre. But my aim is to make millions, so books selling 1 or 2 or 5 a day won't do that without having to write hundreds of them, which I'm not willing to wait around to do if I can write a series that will sell 100 a day each or more instead.  It's why I'm writing urban fantasy at the moment instead of more epic fantasy. The epic fantasy, at least the way I did it, doesn't have the same potential and hasn't shown the same sales growth. So I changed tactics and subgenres, because for me, and my goals, that was what I needed to do.

So different strokes, etc. One person's "selling strongly" might be another person's "do something else cause this isn't working the way I want"...

There is no one golden way or price point or anything. It all depends on what you want, what you write, and how you are willing to go about getting to your own goals.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> As of an hour ago, I dropped all my prices.


I see - many thanks for answering my nosey question, Patty. And I wish you great success in 2015.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Monique said:


> Arguing about it (politely) gains us everything. Critical thinking is far too rare on this board.
> 
> Never ever be afraid to question someone just because they say they sell well or because they have a loud voice or because you like their book covers. Question it all. That is the only way you'll find out *your* truth. And never expect your truth to be everyone else's.
> 
> Thank the baby jebus there are people here who are willing to challenge ideas. This Bud's for you. Okay, not a Bud, because - gross. But this Stella Artois is for you!


Agreed on the above.

By arguing, I mean the pointless:

"Yes it does!"
"No it doesn't!"


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

No Cat said:


> My bestselling series launched in August with a .99 book. In a subgenre I had no other books in. Seriously. That one book helped turn everything around for me and has sold almost 50,000 copies in 5 months. Not a long time ago at all. Post KU. (and it isn't in KU)
> 
> So dislike my data all you want but please don't try to fit it to some narrative. It is what it is. I launched a series with a .99 book recently and have done very well, thanks. In my opinion, if you write good books and have a plan for what you are doing, using .99 is still very effective.


How do you know there weren't other factors involved that mattered more? I've seen plenty authors who haven't succeeded with 99 cent launches.. I've seen first book launch succeed with $8.99 pricing. But that doesn't mean it will be repeated every time too..

I like the data, and it's a strategy, but it doesn't work for everyone and will not work in future. Just like many strategies evolved. You're attached to your strategy a lot for some reason. No need to defend it too much. Like KDP Select before it... it will die down. It's just part of the life. Select made tons of authors lots of money and launched careers. Great. Point is not to get attached to one thing and march for it as if this was a us vs them argument. OP points out great thing, it's just PART of overall strategy to have permafrees and 99 cents.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

MichaelWallace said:


> I know some people still are still starting out and using this tactic successfully.
> 
> That's the whole point, though. What works for one person is never universal advice. Try different stuff. Mess around with all sorts of marketing strategies while you improve your craft, and see what works for you.


Some are, but is it as effective as it used to be? Is it winding down due to many more publishers etc?

As someone said in this thread, I wish there were more BOLD authors who take risks and try different strategies instead of just copying 'do 99 cent launch, get BookBub ad and you'll be fine...' rule.. Most just regurgitate stuff instead of creating new marketing and testing.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I wonder how much more massive the advertising budget is for the people who are allergic to free and 99 cents.


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## Z. Rider (Aug 15, 2014)

No Cat said:


> My bestselling series launched in August with a .99 book. In a subgenre I had no other books in.


Like RBC, I wonder if it was the 99 cents or the different subgenre or something else altogether--or all the various things all together--that led to the success of the series. Would you have been just as successful at $2.99 (or $3.99 or $4.99) because you hit the right subgenre with the right series? Things we'll never know because there's no way to do a truly controlled test.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

There's no where to buy advertising when you're not free or 99 cents.  honestly my advertising budget is sweat. I work and network and hang out with readers. When I blog, I don't blog about writing but share stories. I haven't paid for advertising since 2013 when I bought an $80 ad on knd. 

And for the always said "romance" can't be priced higher, over 60 of the top 100 romance ebooks in kindle store are $2.99 or above. Most are trad pub but not all are. 

There really are no rules. Our threat is groupthink and self-fulfilling prophecies. I wonder what the market would be like if bookbub had said $4.99 and below is a book deal we will feature.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Of course it is just part of a strategy. The point we're trying to make is that multiple books at .99 and permafree can and does work for lots of people. What the OP seemed to be trying to say was that it wasn't a good idea (the thread title clearly states "you're not going to make a living on 99 cents"). Personally, at the moment in the current market, I know a ton more people who are making a good living utilizing multiple books at .99 and permafree than people who launch or run their books at high prices.

The title of this thread, after all, isn't "You might make money pricing higher" or "you can make a living pricing at 8.99" etc, so we're offering counterpoints to the whole idea that you can't make a living on .99 books. Because plenty of people do.


As for my series, no, I don't think 2.99 would have had the same effect. I picked .99 after talking to multiple people because I wanted the maximum exposure for the first book. The whole point was to launch with a total no-barrier-to-entry price. For me, it worked. I would do it again (and will, soon, in yet another subgenre of fantasy). I wanted to build audience. I have my epic fantasies at .99 and 2.99 now (and free) and those went from selling 2 copies a month each if I was lucky at 3.99 or 4.99 to selling 200+ each a month now. No ads. I did adjust covers, but only after the price change helped them sell again (haven't seen much increase from the cover changes, but I like the new ones better, so it was still worth it). Changing my pricing this year was the single biggest difference for me between making 40 bucks a month and making thousands. So that's my personal experience, anyway.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> There's no where to buy advertising when you're not free or 99 cents.  honestly my advertising budget is sweat. I work and network and hang out with readers. When I blog, I don't blog about writing but share stories. I haven't paid for advertising since 2013 when I bought an $80 ad on knd.
> 
> And for the always said "romance" can't be priced higher, over 60 of the top 100 romance ebooks in kindle store are $2.99 or above. Most are trad pub but not all are.
> 
> There really are no rules. Our threat is groupthink and self-fulfilling prophecies. I wonder what the market would be like if bookbub had said $4.99 and below is a book deal we will feature.


I respect that, but I also tried that and nothing worked for me until I did a freebooksy ad last month. I have no doubt you know what you are doing, your record proves you do. I just don't think what you are saying works for me right now. Also, it's all a matter of opinion. Please do not take this as argumentative, because I do respect you, but we disagree on KU. I personally think you undervalue your work putting 4 dollar books in for a 1.33 payout. I would not say don't do it, however, because that works for you. For myself, I will never put a full length book in as long as there is another way.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

My novellas are $3.25 not $4. Again I respect people I disagree with too  they're 35,000 words roughly. My novel is not in KU. Cancelled is a novel but years old and not anything I actively promote or nurture. It well earned out the $400 I spent to publish it.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> My novellas are $3.25 not $4. Again I respect people I disagree with too  they're 35,000 words roughly. My novel is not in KU. Cancelled is a novel but years old and not anything I actively promote or nurture. It well earned out the $400 I spent to publish it.


Ah, I apologize for my mistake on your pricing. I guess it also depends on the genre. For me 35,000 would be a 3.99 book since I do erotica.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> There really are no rules. Our threat is groupthink and self-fulfilling prophecies.


...

But you just said... and the thread title...

I... I'm gonna have a sit down for a bit.


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## evawallace (Aug 7, 2014)

Lionel's Mom said:


> I agree with a lot of what you say, but I have one perma free and one novella at .99, which I consider a gift to my readers. You don't really need it to go forward with the series, it's just a fun extra. I made six figures this year so it's still working for me.
> And honestly, when I get three or four in my new series, if the market is still like todays I'm permafreeing the first in that one too. It's easier to advertise, you get a boatload of downloads (thousands vs tens or hundreds), which ups your sell-through.
> 
> Things could be different in six months, but then I'll rethink if they are. But, the number one reason I don't buy a new author, and I click on a lot of links from this board (especially when they post thinking they're failures, I'll think about giving them a try and a tiny boost in rank) but when I see their book at 4.99 and up, I click away.
> ...


If this is true you must have one hell of a library


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Annie Jocoby: Relieved you're doing well. For a (fearful) minute there was worried you were going back to food stamps.

Okey Dokey: Real good point.

Evan of the R: RE Apple 70%. Thanks for the reminder. With all we find ourselves dealing with: characters in a series we're currently working on: covers, formatting, PR, et al, we tend to overlook things. Appreciate the heads up.

Zoe Tate: Do admire the fact you have the courage to keep your price up there. It takes moxie (or whatever you want to call it.)
Shows real faith in your work. Glad sales continue to happen for you.

Amanda Hough: Excellent. "Don't sell yourself short."

Cinisajoy: "What an author needs to do is figure out the best business plan for themselves."

              Of course, Cin. But we're creative types, wired different. Most of us HATE business & numbers and the "bottom line."
Yes, we've had to wear all of those hats since going indie...and we do it. Only as a matter of survival. Always appreciate your input. We need more readers like you. Would love to see other readers chime in, offer feedback, etc. 

Also: keep in mind. Certain members of our society expect things to be handed to them. They feel everything should be free. Everything & anything. Fee. They are so tight it kills them to have to pay so much as a dime for anything. They're the same cheapos who will leave a quarter tip on a ten dollar meal. You and I both know the type am talking about. You've seen them, been with them. What they are is basically heartless. 

Now, I would love to see them go to their 9 to 5 day gig & be paid in Monopoly money & their employer say: That's what we feel your input here is worth: fake jack. Your sweat & toil? Nothing. Nada. 

Some of this stated with tongue in cheek, of course.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

No Cat said:


> Of course it is just part of a strategy. The point we're trying to make is that multiple books at .99 and permafree can and does work for lots of people. What the OP seemed to be trying to say was that it wasn't a good idea (the thread title clearly states "you're not going to make a living on 99 cents").


Not when ALL of your book are at 99 cents. That's the message. Not don't have them at all.. This turned into Us vs Them attitude a bit for no reason..

It's a shame this forum is getting attached to one particular philosophy and then instead of helping each other are freaking arguing.. jeez.. how about someone collects all threads from different authors doing different strategies and pricings and that would be a great thread.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2015)

The OP never responded to my post on page 1 so I'll say some stuff again.

I started a new pen name in November and I write 10000 word short romance pieces and use KU to exploit the royalty. I made 2 - 3 grand in December depending on the borrow rate.

Without KU the OP would have a point, but with KU .99 cents doesn't equal .35 cents it equals a dollar something. There's been heaps of people with full NOVELS making money on KU unbelievably .. I make money on .99 cent shorts because I write to the market. Or at least I try to.

Threads like these are just pushing myths.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

ShaneJeffery said:


> The OP never responded to my post on page 1 so I'll say some stuff again.
> 
> I started a new pen name in November and I write 10000 word short romance pieces and use KU to exploit the royalty. I made 2 - 3 grand in December depending on the borrow rate.
> 
> ...


Very nice!

What to do tho when Amazon decides to lower Borrow's prices and stop pushing KU books in rankings? When artificially created 'help' stops coming, what then? It's great that it works for now, but that's not a real business model. Real business, doesn't depend on any one source of income/client/vendor etc.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Kirkee said:


> Certain members of our society expect things to be handed to them. They feel everything should be free. Everything & anything. Fee. They are so tight it kills them to have to pay so much as a dime for anything. They're the same cheapos who will leave a quarter tip on a ten dollar meal. You and I both know the type am talking about. You've seen them, been with them. What they are is basically heartless.


Not to say "brainless", too, in this context.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

RBC said:


> Very nice!
> 
> What to do tho when Amazon decides to lower Borrow's prices and stop pushing KU books in rankings? When artificially created 'help' stops coming, what then? It's great that it works for now, but that's not a real business model. Real business, doesn't depend on any one source of income/client/vendor etc.


Good point. Some part of me is waiting for the KU bubble to burst. When it does those who get 100 borrows on a book but zero sales on that book are going to be in a world of trouble.


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## NoahPorter (Sep 15, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> ...
> 
> But you just said... and the thread title...
> 
> I... I'm gonna have a sit down for a bit.


+1


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2015)

RBC said:


> Very nice!
> 
> What to do tho when Amazon decides to lower Borrow's prices and stop pushing KU books in rankings? When artificially created 'help' stops coming, what then? It's great that it works for now, but that's not a real business model. Real business, doesn't depend on any one source of income/client/vendor etc.


If KU drops below a dollar it probably won't be feasible. At least not for me.

When the KU rate is 70 cents I welcome all the you can't make money at .99 cent threads. Providing there's proof of that, the OP has tried for a long period of time to make money at .99 and has something substantial to back up their claim instead of just having a rant for the sake of it.

Strategies will change over time.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

we're starting to veer a bit towards that line that must not be crossed.  Just sayin'.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

This has been a great discussion. Lots of advice. It's clear that one size does not fit all. That's the beauty of this industry.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Hello everyone. Wow, this thread has gotten so long that I couldn't get past page three without starting to feel my hackles rising, so I thought I'd jump in with my own 2 pence worth, before one of the mods feels compelled to shut this down.

Why am I adding my comments? Because I've been doing this for a couple of years, I have 26 titles out there under three different names in three different genres, and I've experimented a LOT in my time with price points. So hopefully my words will have a small amount of value to somebody.

Let me start by saying that I agree pretty strongly with Elizabeth. From what I can gather, she is basically trying to warn those with less experience that the .99c price point is a waste of time if you want to make money.

I have found this to be 100% true. I do use perma-free as a loss leader at the start of a series, after that all books start at $2.99. If they are showing up as less, which they often seem to, it because Amazon have reduced the prices, but I'm still making the 70% return. Anything under $2.99 and I am only making 35%, which I consider a total waste of my time and effort. So I never price at .99 or at 1.99 or anything less than 2.99 ever, because I'm just losing money!

The _exception_ to that rule is if I'm waiting for Amazon to price match something to Perma-free. In that case I might reduce it to .99c because it is already free on all other platforms and I want to get it as close to free as I can while they take their sweet time matching it.

Now, my books are short, they are novellas. They range from 7,000 words to 50,000 words. In the past I would often price book 1 at FREE, then book 2 at 99c, then go up to 2.99 for the third book. Well, experience and experimenting (also tried it at 1.99) and time has shown me very clearly that it has made absolutely no difference to my sales if book 2 is 99c or 2.99! None at all! So I was losing money on book 2 all that time. If people liked my free first book, then they bought the second one, price didn't appear to factor. But income was hugely different, the difference between making 35c on each sale or $2.10 on each sale, one quickly adds up to real money, the other quickly adds up to bus change. But let me reiterate that I could see _no difference in read through rate_. It took me months and months of experimenting and tracking to work that out.

I am still a big fan of perma-free, as a marketing tool to kick off a series, it still can't be beaten. Yes, it has less impact than it used to, but as long as you have plenty of other books following it to make your money on, then having a loss leader is worth every penny 
Not only will it find you plenty of new readers who might not have otherwise taken a risk on your books, but it can be invaluable for hawking around the discount book sites that then give you lots of extra exposure and publicity, thus more readers, thus more read through to your higher priced work that is making you 70% on every sale! A total No Brainer in my opinion!

However! If you have only one book, then yes, I could see the logic of the .99c price point. You will shift more copies and hopefully get some good reviews in place. But you won't really make any money, which I think is kind of the point Elizabeth was making. It's a different game altogether if you are actually trying to make a living from your writing than if you are dipping in your toe for the very first time to test the water.

Anyway, just my experience, FWIW. Hope it helps in some small way, though I strongly suspect all this has been thoroughly covered on the six pages I couldn't bring myself to wade through, sorry. x


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

kalel said:


> This has been a great discussion. Lots of advice. It's clear that one size does not fit all. That's the beauty of this industry.


Oh dear, I just couldnt help myself! I disagree. I genuinely think one size does pretty much fit all, see my post above! That's from experience in three different genres over a good time period. But of course, everyone can do exactly as they please, _that's_ the beauty of the industry. (ducks behind chair to avoid rotten cabbages, lol)


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> If you don't want to make money on your writing, or don't plan to make money on your writing, I would think the title of this post would make it clear it's not addressing your goals, which are perfectly admirable goals, just not what I was talking about.
> 
> Mailing lists.
> 
> ...


I'm just a reader, and I don't know a lot about marketing, but I know if I signed up for every mailing list from every author I like my email box would be flooded even more than it is now. I'm not likely to sign up to receive what are essentially ads even from my favorite author.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> ...
> 
> But you just said... and the thread title...
> 
> I... I'm gonna have a sit down for a bit.


+2

Also, folks, the people talking little chicken/sky is falling re: KU really need to stop assuming that the authors/publishers/CEOs (because I am ALL THREE) taking advantage of this current model are working off the assumption that KU will be around and viable forever. It's working for me RIGHT NOW. I watch this whole situation like a hawk. The professional authors in this group who aren't watching it all, constantly, and ready to move on a dime are the ones who will get left behind. Being in KU (with some of my "chips") and taking advantage of it now does NOT mean that I'm not doing other things that maintain and create other streams of revenue. The idea that some people think most authors are writing in a bubble, clacking away at keys and then just sending the magical, pie in the sky results out into the world crossing fingers and hoping someone will recognize it as the special butterfly it is irks me beyond words. If anyone reading this thread is privy to some of the private pages that indie authors have created to talk business, you are already aware of exactly how much of this is a business for the VAST majority of us making an actual living at this. I'm surrounded DAILY by brilliant business people and we have constant dialogue about shifting trends, marketing (and yes, there IS marketing for 2.99 and up books), craft, and on and on. No Cat isn't sitting here whipping off a book and then saying, "Ugh, let seeee here. How much should I price this? What's the EASY route? Meh, .99 sounds good!" and then slapping a price on it. BELIEVE me that is NOT what's happening here. Most of us log more hours working through the business side of this job than the writing side. I honestly am not sure what else I can say to keep people from drinking this particular brand of Kool Aid, but I wanted to at least try one more time.

Also, re: authors taking risks and .99 authors taking the "easy" way out or authors writing to market rather than writing what they "want" to write, you can't have it both ways. Either .99 and KU are risks because they're faulty, unproven models with the bottom ready to drop out, or they're not. And the whole sellout argument is one that has been and will be around forever. I'm making a great living with my writing and I'm writing what I want to write. Because what I want to write is whatever I think will make it so that I can support my family most effectively. Not being terrified if the septic craps the bed makes me happy. Not looking at my electric bill and wondering what I will have to sell something to pay it makes me happy. Taking my family on a trip to Hawaii makes me reallllllly frigging happy. And writing, in any form, makes me happy. What would NOT make me happy is writing something that I loved that no one would EVER read or pay for. I don't judge those who find happiness there, but I'm tired of having to defend the opposite position.

If each person sat back and kept an open mind rather than writing off methods they have neither tried or have any empirical evidence to disprove (or, in this case, when basic math is tossed out the window in favor of hyperbole), we would all be a lot better off.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Evenstar said:


> Hello everyone. Wow, this thread has gotten so long that I couldn't get past page three without starting to feel my hackles rising, so I thought I'd jump in with my own 2 pence worth, before one of the mods feels compelled to shut this down.
> 
> Why am I adding my comments? Because I've been doing this for a couple of years, I have 26 titles out there under three different names in three different genres, and I've experimented a LOT in my time with price points. So hopefully my words will have a small amount of value to somebody.
> 
> ...


You should've kept reading.

Sorry to be blunt, but you seem very smart and like you're taking this business pretty seriously, so I think if you DO read the rest of the thread, you will see that the concept that "you can't make money at .99" has been handily disproved. With ACTUAL math by ACTUAL authors who are DOING it. I think it's great that you and Elizabeth are selling an amount you feel satisfied with using your models. That's excellent, and I would NEVER tell you you're doing it wrong. So that's what gets my panties in a wad here. Elizabeth posted her lifetime sales in another thread. $21,000 and change. Not to be "that guy", but I know for a fact that three of the authors who posted here telling her that .99 CAN work all exceeded that amount of money...LAST MONTH. And one of them made more than twice that. So can you imagine how frustrating it is to have the OP and the people co-signing this post plugging ears and still not being open-minded enough to think that just MAYBE there IS a way to make money at .99? We sat here and WATCHED our own Viola Rivard (before people ran her off with posts exactly like this one) DO it for months, right before our very eyes. But still, no admission that maybe a line was crossed here or that the title and opinions on this subject need to be scaled back a little.

Sweeping generalizations are exactly the reason we can't have nice things here.

To the writers who genuinely want to make a go of this, I urge you to read more. Do your research. Do NOT let one post by someone, ANYONE, I don't care HOW successful they are, determine how you are going to run your business. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. Find the one that works best for you and do it.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Chrisbwritin said:


> You should've kept reading.
> 
> Sorry to be blunt, but you seem very smart and like you're taking this business pretty seriously, so I think if you DO read the rest of the thread, you will see that the concept that "you can't make money at .99" has been handily disproved. With ACTUAL math by ACTUAL authors who are DOING it. I think it's great that you and Elizabeth are selling an amount you feel satisfied with using your models. That's excellent, and I would NEVER tell you you're doing it wrong. So that's what gets my panties in a wad here. Elizabeth posted her lifetime sales in another thread. $21,000 and change. Not to be "that guy", but I know for a fact that three of the authors who posted here telling her that .99 CAN work all exceeded that amount of money...LAST MONTH. And one of them made more than twice that. So can you imagine how frustrating it is to have the OP and the people co-signing this post plugging ears and still not being open-minded enough to think that just MAYBE there IS a way to make money at .99? We sat here and WATCHED our own Viola Rivard (before people ran her off with posts exactly like this one) DO it for months, right before our very eyes. But still, no admission that maybe a line was crossed here or that the title and opinions on this subject need to be scaled back a little.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. It's true, I didn't read all the thread, and I hope that I came across as saying this is just _my_ advice, for what it is worth to anyone.
You are absolutely right, people should do their research, and I find reading Kindle Boards the most valuable research to be found on the entire world wide web, but yes, take anything that anyone says with a pinch of tabasco, because everyone is just speaking from their own experience. And actually though I now consider myself fairly experienced, I don't consider myself a big seller. I'm not even halfway to where I want to be by this time next year. *Read more* is the best advice ever...


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

From Wikipedia:

_Strategy is a high level plan to achieve one or more goals under conditions of uncertainty. Strategy is important because the resources available to achieve these goals are usually limited.

Tactic(s) may refer to a plan, procedure, or expedient for promoting a desired end or result.
_
The two definitions are important for this discussion.

A strategy is a higher level plan to achieve a goal, like become a self-supporting full time self-published author. My strategy to achieve that goal might be to write enough books each year in popular genres reaching as many readers as possible so that I can earn a consistent $250K a year.

One of my tactics might be: using price to get eyeballs on my books, be more competitive, sell more books, maximize revenues. Some of my books will be priced at 99c, like series openers, some permafrees, some in KU for the $1.33 borrow. I might vary my price based on what is competitive in my genre and in response to my own sales.

Another tactic might be length: using different length of books to try to capitalize on different reader preferences, so I have some longer novels, some novellas and some short stories. I might write serials instead of standalones. Or vice versa.

Another tactic might be promotions: use different alternating book promotion sites to maximize exposure of my books, including Kindle Countdown Deals, Free Days, BookBub, FreeBooksy, etc. as often as I can afford it.

Another tactic might be diversifying: using audio, print, digital, and being wide in terms of distribution, including Scribd, Oyster, and Libraries, all online eBook retailers as well as dipping some books into KU and out depending on how they sell.

Another tactic might be using keywords and categories to find the right niche, keyword stuffing, etc.

Selling books at 99c or having permafrees are tactics, not strategies, and certainly not goals. Tactics are more flexible and change in response to conditions on the ground.

We can argue all day about whether tactics are ethical or wise in the long term. Tactics are only wise in the long term if they succeed in achieving overall strategy or goals. So, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If it works for someone, that's all the proof that is needed for them. As to ethical, each person has to live with themselves. Therefore, it's up to them to decide if some business tactic is ethical. And of course, our retail masters. They get to decide whether they will let us use our tactics.

This OP is offering advice based on her experience and her particular niche. What works for her will not necessarily work for other authors. As with all advice, take it with a huge salt lick.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I want to address a but in a post.
I was quoted as saying: do what is best for YOUR business.    The poster then added a but we are creative people.
I want to know why the but.  Just because one is creative does not mean you can't have business sense.  They are not exclusive.    You can be both.  

In other creative worlds, one has to be very business savvy to make money.    You can't make money if you sell quivet at Red Heart prices.  Quivet= high priced yarn.  Red Heart = low priced yarn.    Not to mention the time invested.    Or you wouldn't sell an oil painting at kid's watercolor prices.

At least with a book, you can sell more than one copy without having to rewrite it every time.


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

"(and yes, there IS marketing for 2.99 and up books)"

Christine, if you wouldn’t mind saying, what kind of marketing? How can we market higher priced books? Thanks.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

RBC said:


> Very nice!
> 
> What to do tho when Amazon decides to lower Borrow's prices and stop pushing KU books in rankings? When artificially created 'help' stops coming, what then? It's great that it works for now, but that's not a real business model. Real business, doesn't depend on any one source of income/client/vendor etc.


Our business as authors depends on readers. KU might turn out to be unsustainable. Regardless, anyone who is able to take advantage of it now to gain new readers _is_ building their business long-term.

I've only got a couple things in Select right now, but when it first came out, I dived in with everything. People said that early Select model -- giving away a few thousand books, then racking up the post-free sales -- wouldn't last. And they were right! They were so right that, within six months of Select's rollout, Amazon drastically reduced its effectiveness.

However, while it _was_ effective, I sold some books. And gained a few readers. And that little toehold -- small though it was, and temporary as its window to acquire lasted -- made it much, much easier to launch my next books.

A tactic might be short-term. But that doesn't mean the gains are.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Will .99 work for me forever? I doubt it. But instead of running around worrying about what might happen tomorrow, I'm utilizing the best tactics for me to sell today. Because today is all I can control. If/when things change, I'll change tactics. Meanwhile, I'm earning crazy amounts of money and building a robust mailing list and a readership. Why would I stop doing that because it might not work in the "someday" that isn't here yet?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

No Cat said:


> Will .99 work for me forever? I doubt it. But instead of running around worrying about what might happen tomorrow, I'm utilizing the best tactics for me to sell today. Because today is all I can control. If/when things change, I'll change tactics. Meanwhile, I'm earning crazy amounts of money and building a robust mailing list and a readership. Why would I stop doing that because it might not work in the "someday" that isn't here yet?


All I can say to you is what I already said on another thread. I want to fail like you.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Here's something I've been thinking of trying since before this thread was started.  My boss, who does not consider himself a writer at all, published a non fiction book on Amazon about machining for 8.99. It's just tips he'd learned being in the business for twenty years. He does very well with absolutely no promotion. There are very few writers on this subject, but machinsts all over the country are looking for it. So yes, in this instance I have considered picking a niche so specialized I could charge high just to see what would happen. I'd actually put it on the back burner and forgotten about it until this thread put it back in my head.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

katrina46 said:


> Here's something I've been thinking of trying since before this thread was started. My boss, who does not consider himself a writer at all, published a non fiction book on Amazon about machining for 8.99. It's just tips he'd learned being in the business for twenty years. He does very well with absolutely no promotion. There are very few writers on this subject, but machinsts all over the country are looking for it. So yes, in this instance I have considered picking a niche so specialized I could charge high just to see what would happen. I'd actually put it on the back burner and forgotten about it until this thread put it back in my head.


The nonfiction market is a completely different beast with its own set of rules and strategies. I wouldn't even know where to begin there.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Briteka said:


> The nonfiction market is a completely different beast with its own set of rules and strategies. I wouldn't even know where to begin there.


It is, but not a bad idea to try for authors wishing to expand their income.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> Here's something I've been thinking of trying since before this thread was started. My boss, who does not consider himself a writer at all, published a non fiction book on Amazon about machining for 8.99. It's just tips he'd learned being in the business for twenty years. He does very well with absolutely no promotion. There are very few writers on this subject, but machinsts all over the country are looking for it. So yes, in this instance I have considered picking a niche so specialized I could charge high just to see what would happen. I'd actually put it on the back burner and forgotten about it until this thread put it back in my head.


Could you please link to this? My dad is a machinist in his 60s and has learned a lot over the years. I would love to find a way to lure him back into writing, which he gave up years ago. Writing non-fiction might be the way to do it, and I'd love to be able to point him to a success story in his field of expertise. :-D


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I have a perma-free and it wasn't working until August when I finally got keywords figured out. That improved my downloads from a handful a day to about 40-50. Still not a ton, but I plan to promo it every once in awhile. Whenever I have a good download day, for whatever reason, say I have over a hundred downloads, sure enough, a few days later, sales of my next book show an uptick. The next book is $3.99. I've had it at $4.99 and I may go back that, but at the moment, I don't want to upset the apple cart.  

I can see where you're coming from, Elizabeth. You're doing well with higher priced books, so it must seem like we all should do that. The thing is, your books, at least the couple I looked at, have a built in audience with the thousands of Pride and Prejudice fans. Most of us don't have that--the best we have is a genre we choose to write in and if we're lucky, that genre has plenty of readers. I write thrillers. Yes, thrillers sell, but it's also crowded with some pretty big names, especially when you drill down into the sub-genres. I was just thrilled the other day to see a couple of my books in the top twenty of a sub-genre headed up by 11/22/63 by Stephen King. The second book was also a Stephen King novel. I think the others between my book and his were Dean Koontz novels. People who read those books are likely to be people who read maybe six books a year, and they rotate between whatever big name has a new release, be it Koontz, King, Child, etc. 

That doesn't mean that there aren't any readers of thrillers willing to read something else--there are and I've had quite a few, but they aren't likely searching Amazon for a book like mine, whereas you would definitely benefit from people who can't get enough P&P. I know my sisters love those kinds of books. One sister reads P&P fanfiction and for all I know, writes it. Kind of how 50 Shades made it on the back of Twilight fans.

I've had my series compared to the old TV show Early Edition (no, not the tv news magazine with a similar name). How many people do you think search Amazon for a book like the tv show Early Edition? Yeah. Zero.   Quantum Leap or Person of Interest also come to mind, but again, there are no rabid fanbases for any of those.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

HSh said:


> Could you please link to this? My dad is a machinist in his 60s and has learned a lot over the years. I would love to find a way to lure him back into writing, which he gave up years ago. Writing non-fiction might be the way to do it, and I'd love to be able to point him to a success story in his field of expertise. :-D


I think he used a pen name so the guys at work wouldn't give him trouble, but I'll find out what it is when I go back to work on Monday and PM you. You can actually find a lot of examples of this searching machining on Amazon. I myself had no idea some of them were 120 bucks paperback until I started looking for him.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

To be absolutely clear ... Again ... I specifically discussed the 64 sales of cancelled over a year and a half at $3.99 instead of $.99. Look around you, most authors in the kindle store sell single digits a month. I know what that feels like it was me six months ago. And they are trying to DO $.99 and permafree and frustrated as heck it's not bringing them those 5 figure months all you mega seller have. 

I said stop being 99 cents and permafree if you are only selling a handful each month. 5-10 sales a month at $3.99 at least covers the cost of hosting a website for a year yet 99 cents doesn't. 

People in this thread have gone and TOLD others they are priced too high when the person didn't even complain about sales just threw it out there. It's in the five mistakes I made thread and that happens on the daily here. How dare you price at $8 or $9 and NOT be trad pubbed? 

Yeah how dare I. . . Indeed.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't think you quite get why you're getting so much pushback here.

I think I get what you're trying to say, but your original post, which a lot of people are parroting or trying to justify has a ton of generalizations, absolutes and quotas in it. The infamous 'whhhyyyy', for example. Or the title itself.

People are pushing back because you're spending a whole lot of time tearing down a method that's working for a lot of people, but not really selling your own method very well. The argument for pricing higher across the board seems to be 'because 99 cents is a smaller number' and 'you should be able to sell without the promos and loss leaders permafree and 99 cents opens up'... without explaining HOW. It just seems like (not that you're saying it) you think a higher price will automagically increase sales... somehow.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

No I get the pushback, I don't care about the push back. They are all just saying exactly what I pointed out. Everyone who says I'm making a living and have permafree or 99 cent book that has books in their sig show not ALL of the books are that price. I can't control people parsing out lines without taking the whole post in context. 

There is a groupthink we all must be 99 cents. We all must be permafree. We are indies we can't be priced higher because it doesn't work etc etc. I am really limiting my responses believe it or not to clarify when someone again assumes I was talking about my JAFf when I was not. That's a whole different scenario entirely that I have posted pricing posts about and why etc. 

I see it daily here that "plan" is shared missing some very key components. There are hardly any threads that don't tout 99 cents etc. And yeah I really have hated the years of indies being TOLD that's what they have to be for advertising, in how to sell ebooks books and blog posts by the big authors who started years ago. My goodness does the newspaper tell it's advertisers how much their products can be to buy an ad? No! Of course not! Buy advertising on reach, it's out there, there's no reason for everyone to only use one strategy. 

But hey if you are selling 5-10 books a month for a year or more and 99 cents makes you happy, go for it. But I think many authors do that because this business is very intimidating and they need to hear they are just as good as everyone else who prices higher.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

This thread would probably been better received if it was titled "Do 99 cent strategies work?" Then a first post explaining why it didn't work for the OP with a question as to if it ever works. Then we would've had an opportunity to discuss it without the absolutes.

Because again, I know authors who _are_ only using 99 cents and making a living doing it with shorter works while they bank on the KU borrow.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> No I get the pushback, I don't care about the push back. They are all just saying exactly what I pointed out. Everyone who says I'm making a living and have permafree or 99 cent book that has books in their sig show not ALL of the books are that price. I can't control people parsing out lines without taking the whole post in context.
> 
> There is a groupthink we all must be 99 cents. We all must be permafree. We are indies we can't be priced higher because it doesn't work etc etc.


I know you don't care, but this is where the disconnect is for me. Where are the threads that say you MUST do this? You MUST have all your books as 99c or free? Lots of people use it as part of a broader strategy. That's discussed/suggested here v frequently. But you seem to be implying and fighting against a foe that I don't think actually exists.

Some people do well with all 99c. I don't see any of them saying everyone should. Where are these people saying you must price ALL of your books at 99c or else? I just don't see them. Even if they do exist, they sure as shootin' aren't the majority.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I know it works sometimes. We ALL know it works sometimes. That's a silly way to talk about something that in my opinion is a very big problem for all of us. I held my tongue truly. Others ran and started crap bad mouthing my latest novel in a thread I wasn't even a part of. 

You have 5 figures a month hitting your bank account a month? Why are you mad I asked people selling a handful of books a month why they are staying free or 99 cents? 

I don't think people here were really offended. I think they were mad that Noone said something before they committed to using clearance prices to gain visibility. Not all but some. 

I'm not stupid. I know headlines get clicks. I tried to clear who I was speaking to and still those who saw an opportunity to tell me how their plan we've all heard for the umpteenth time worked for them three years ago came a running. The hypocrisy is so great on December 30th people here loved I explained undeserved niches then today wrote posts with a snide comment that it's a outlier. No it's not. It's just not the NyTimes USA today path. 

But in the words of Bruno Mars "don't believe me, just watch." Because without a preorder I can hit #1100 in the paid kindle store with a $3.25 book with no bookbub either. And this year, I'm going to crack the top #1,000 with a retail priced book. And it's not luck but doing the opposite of what I was told I have to do by others.  

Go read the thread by Darren on 5 mistakes I made, it's right there. It should be on page two by now or writers cafe. I can't link as I'm on phone. 

Don't be bossy. Be boss.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I tried to clear who I was speaking to and still those who saw an opportunity to tell me how their plan we've all heard for the umpteenth time worked for them three years ago came a running. The hypocrisy is so great on December 30th people here loved I explained undeserved niches then today wrote posts with a snide comment that it's a outlier. No it's not. It's just not the NyTimes USA today path.


Hey, I just want to say that although I don't necessarily agree with all of the advice in your OP, I still think that the backlash against your thoughts was way over-the-top.

Obviously, people think I'm way over the top, so they're probably laughing at my saying that.

I'm just trying to say that I don't have a problem with strongly opinionated OPs, or strongly worded disagreement, or challenges back and forth. Not at all.

But some people are taking this stuff personally, like they are being individually screamed at to do something. I didn't feel you were doing that, even though your post was a bit attention-getting. You were just putting thoughts out there about your experiences.

That's how it felt to me anyhow.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't get why you needed a thread telling people they sucked when you had the positive version of this with the 'you can price higher' thread of yous.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK....I HAVE read through this whole thread and Elizabeth nowhere said people sucked.  Let's all settle down, as my father used to tell us. (Unfortunately, I can't use my father's voice here....)

Someone explain to me the merit of continuing this particular discussion.  (If you're here for the popcorn and Pepsi, move on.)

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Sylvia R. Frost (Jan 8, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I know it works sometimes. We ALL know it works sometimes. That's a silly way to talk about something that in my opinion is a very big problem for all of us. I held my tongue truly. Others ran and started crap bad mouthing my latest novel in a thread I wasn't even a part of.
> 
> You have 5 figures a month hitting your bank account a month? Why are you mad I asked people selling a handful of books a month why they are staying free or 99 cents?
> 
> ...


I think the real title of this thread should be:

You're Not Going to Make A Living on 99 cents ... but you will make a fortune.

Because that's what I see happening. The mega-sellers in romance use .99 cents like crazy. Especially short-form serialized romance writers making enough money to make Trump lose his wig.

I'm not. I do permafree and then 2.99. And even perma-free I'm not sold on yet. KU IMHO may have cannabalized it for midlisters. I did a free promo and that worked great, but I'm not seeing the download rate I'd need of the freebie to really pump up subsequent sales. (Yet.) Time will tell with read-through-rates, and I very well could eat my own socks and be proven wrong. I hope so in fact.

But again. I'm not a best-seller. Not even close. I'm hoping to break 1k for December depending on borrow rate. (Although to be fair that's 1k with two books out, (the third wasn't released until late December, which was also a delayed deadline, so I'm the poster-child for what-not-to-do here.).

I do think what Elizabeth has to say has some merit. For midlist and below .99 may not be the golden ticket it once was ditto with permafree.

That said. I think the business model of .99 +KU with very frequent releases is still a great one. It's one I'm planning on trying out with my next serial in hopes of upping my game and breaking upwards into the next income bracket. But I think for prawn+ (the category I would put myself in), 2.99+ as a pricing strategy may have some merits. In fact I would outline the following:

1.) Prawn
If you are selling absolutely no books I would use .99 and free strategically to try and get visibility and some traction. Any traction. Honestly, if you're at this stage the problem rests more likely in your choice of genre, the quality of your storytelling, or other production value issues. (Not writing in a series, or only having one book out also count toward this.)

2.) Prawn+
If you are selling between 5-10 books per title per day 2.99 may offer a greater return.

3.) Fish
If you are regularly charting best-seller lists, and are selling more then 30-40 books per title per day .99 +KU borrows may offer a greater return. (Either by serializing your work with a super-fast release schedule and releasing AT LEAST once a month, or by writing longer works and using .99 and free for promotional purposes with a graduating payment scale within a series. FREE .99 3.99 etc. See Annie Jacoby etc)


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

It's a different animal  than books, but I sell art on Etsy. That business has cooled off now, but at one point I was one of the highest sellers in my particular 'genre'. I sold almost nothing till I raised my prices to be the second highest of the comparables. 

If .99 and free are really working for you, then ignore this thread. And Monique, I have seen people shout others down that .99 and permafree are the only way to go. And sometimes that's true.

But I think the OP is pointing out, quite rightly, that the times they are a changing. Pricing higher has always been a retail strategy which implies greater value. Sometimes Indies are too afraid to try pricing higher because it seems to go against what has been the conventional wisdom up to this point.

And I'm not sure you really can make a long-term career out of pricing only at .99 - at least, most people can't as it relies on a lot of volume - but it can be a good short term strategy. Those who can are perhaps the true outliers and congrats to them!

But maybe we all need to be a little daring and accepting of new ideas and strategies. We're Indies after all! We can change and pivot and reverse ourselves as often as we like till we find what works. For us. Then we can share and others can agree or ignore


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Someone explain to me the merit of continuing this particular discussion.


Well, now that the original post has been clarified, I think it's got some wisdom in it. When a book is below a certain sales threshold -- 5/day, maybe? -- lowering price is unlikely to make any difference. Because the people who _are_ buying it are probably finding it in a different way than most forms of book discovery. They're either looking for a very specific type of book, or that exact book, whether due to word of mouth, checking out your backlist, etc.

In that case, overall demand for a book is very low, but that specific reader's demand for it is actually quite high. Meaning price, within reason, is irrelevant. So you might as well make $2-4 off that sale rather than $0.35.

I still think it's smart to run occasional sales and experiments on that book to try to get it rollin'. But between those experiments, putting a $0.99 price on a book without any visibility is like that tree falling in the woods when no one's around to hear it.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> No I get the pushback, I don't care about the push back. They are all just saying exactly what I pointed out. Everyone who says I'm making a living and have permafree or 99 cent book that has books in their sig show not ALL of the books are that price. I can't control people parsing out lines without taking the whole post in context.
> 
> There is a groupthink we all must be 99 cents. We all must be permafree. We are indies we can't be priced higher because it doesn't work etc etc. I am really limiting my responses believe it or not to clarify when someone again assumes I was talking about my JAFf when I was not. That's a whole different scenario entirely that I have posted pricing posts about and why etc.
> 
> ...


I honestly think a lot of writers would at least try to price higher if the promo opportunities were there. Honestly, I can't sell books right now with no promo. I'm new and have no name recognition. Book bub is the biggest and you have to be 99 cents. Bknights has no rules, but warns you if you're over 1.99 you probably wont do well with them and they like 99 cents better. Even authors who do well often drop to 99 cents for promos.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Just a reader here and I am on my second glass of Nutz wine. So there.  

There is a HUGE gap between 99 cents and 8.24 for a book.  For me as a reader, higher priced for indies means the same as it does for publishers. 2.99-5.99 is what I pay for publisher books often. Maybe its my genre, but I can get even 99 cents from publishers and gasp, free. I don't value those books any less than when I pay 4.99. Often, by the time I start reading the books, I have no clue what I paid for them, unless I go into my calibre library and check what I paid for it. That is the only place I even enter that. 

But, I am way more likely to try a new indy author at 99 cents than I would ever do for 2.99  and above. That is just the reality still. 

I value the books I read by how I enjoy them, not how much I paid for them. 

If I go through the stuff I read in the last few years with kindle, I could probably pull up a bunch of books that were free of 99 cents and I loved them just fine. 

You guys wouldn't believe how many sales of 99 cents I jumped on in 2013, especially with bookbub. I had to stop buying so much in 2014 to get a little caught up. Yeah right.  

Publishers have been having some serious sales over the last few years from 99 cents to 2.99. So I don't see anything wrong with indy's also putting out books in that same price range. 

I am way more likey to purchase a 99 cent book than a 5.99. All with the same vetting I do on all books. 99 cents is still a lot of money for a voracious reader in the long term. 

Absolutes work with nothing in life. I see a lot of indies having pretty much all their stuff on 99 cents and they are selling like hotcakes. Readers love that they can read all their stuff without starving at the end of the month.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Katrina46 -

Buy GoogleAdwords. Buy Facebook ads. Co-op with other authors. 

If you look at the most recent Bookbub emails, it's not ALL of the authors in that mailer making their money back. 

You have to go work to find your readership. That's the truth. Go read the "I did awesome on Bookbub" threads more closely, they bought other ads, too.  

If you can get a Bookbub ad and want to do that, I'm happy for you. If you can't get a Bookbub ad, and there are more authors in that category than in the other category, then you need some alternatives. And there are alternative ways out there. 

If I wanted to sped $800 on advertising, I would sit down and figure out Adwords to my greatest advantage because that is WHAT BOokbub uses to build their mailing list. You can see their Google Adwords ads on Yahoo.com that link to a shell blog called The Book Insider.

But, I don't want to spend $800 on advertising. I can write another book in my niche, put it out there, and see that return in a month, because I'm going niche, not mass appeal. Knowing you reader is what this is all about, and we don't all have the same readers.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Atunah, 
You mean readers have to eat something besides words.    I am shocked.  Oh and on prices... the trads are having a field day at 1.99 today.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

cinisajoy said:


> Atunah,
> You mean readers have to eat something besides words. I am shocked. Oh and on prices... the trads are having a field day at 1.99 today.


I have been seeing so many publisher sales I bought even just a few months ago for way more. Darn it.

I do have to eat sometimes. Like food with actual nutrition.


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## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

No Cat said:


> Will .99 work for me forever? I doubt it. But instead of running around worrying about what might happen tomorrow, I'm utilizing the best tactics for me to sell today. Because today is all I can control. If/when things change, I'll change tactics. Meanwhile, I'm earning crazy amounts of money and building a robust mailing list and a readership. Why would I stop doing that because it might not work in the "someday" that isn't here yet?


Well lemme sum up the thread and answer that for ya', k?
Get ready, it's big.
Ya' sitting down?
Drum roll.....

Answer - Someone said ya' should, that's why.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> (If you're here for the popcorn and Pepsi, move on.)


What if I'm here for the Coke?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> I don't think you quite get why you're getting so much pushback here.
> 
> I think I get what you're trying to say, but your original post, which a lot of people are parroting or trying to justify has a ton of generalizations, absolutes and quotas in it. The infamous 'whhhyyyy', for example. Or the title itself.
> 
> People are pushing back because you're spending a whole lot of time tearing down a method that's working for a lot of people, but not really selling your own method very well. The argument for pricing higher across the board seems to be 'because 99 cents is a smaller number' and 'you should be able to sell without the promos and loss leaders permafree and 99 cents opens up'... without explaining HOW. It just seems like (not that you're saying it) you think a higher price will automagically increase sales... somehow.


HOW is the thing. I don't have a big name. I've got nothing to lose and I'm all for making more money. I am perfectly will to price my next story at 2.99 and experiment. But I would need specifics on how to make that work, because I already did that and it didn't. I edited to say I'm not being sarcastic. If you can tell me what to do with the 2.99 book to get it some attention I will try it. Am also not above apologizing all over myself if it works.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Atunah said:


> I am way more likey to purchase a 99 cent book than a 5.99. All with the same vetting I do on all books. 99 cents is still a lot of money for a voracious reader in the long term.


I have to admit that I am less likely to buy at .99 - or at least I was till I published and began to understand the mechanics of Indie publishing and promotion. But when I was just a reader, .99 to me did not say quality. I could have been 1000 % wrong, but pricing higher is a powerful retail strategy that has been used since the beginning of, well, retail.

That said, an ebook above 5.99 would have needed to be something I very specifically wanted - not just something I came across while I was browsing. If it was new to me, for me to buy it, it would have needed to be either extremely compelling re: the cover/blurb, or a subgenre that I read voraciously.

That was my experience as a reader. Now that I've seen behind the velvet curtain, I understand the reasoning behind different price points better.

But does the average reader??


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Heather Hamilton-Senter said:


> I have to admit that I am less likely to buy at .99 - or at least I was till I published and began to understand the mechanics of Indie publishing and promotion. But when I was just a reader, .99 to me did not say quality. I could have been 1000 % wrong, but pricing higher is a powerful retail strategy that has been used since the beginning of, well, retail.
> 
> That said, an ebook above 5.99 would have needed to be something I very specifically wanted - not just something I came across while I was browsing. If it was new to me, for me to buy it, it would have needed to be either extremely compelling re: the cover/blurb, or a subgenre that I read voraciously.
> 
> ...


Is a good question. Your experience basically mimics mine as a reader. But then I don't have nearly as much time to read fiction as I used to. I'm hoping that changes this year.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Monique said:


> What if I'm here for the Coke?


Betsy hates Pepsi. Why do people hate Pepsi?!


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

As a reader, I admit my threshold is $4.99. If something is interesting to me and priced $4.99 or less, it's a one click situation. Above that and I have to _really_ want that book. It's sort of irrational to feel that way about $1, but there it is.

Also before I started self-pubbing when I saw a 99 cent book I would blow right by it. But that was in 2010. I think considering how many 99 cent books end up in the top 100, that's probably not the majority opinion anymore.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> No I get the pushback, I don't care about the push back. They are all just saying exactly what I pointed out. Everyone who says I'm making a living and have permafree or 99 cent book that has books in their sig show not ALL of the books are that price. I can't control people parsing out lines without taking the whole post in context.
> 
> There is a groupthink we all must be 99 cents. We all must be permafree. We are indies we can't be priced higher because it doesn't work etc etc. I am really limiting my responses believe it or not to clarify when someone again assumes I was talking about my JAFf when I was not. That's a whole different scenario entirely that I have posted pricing posts about and why etc.
> 
> ...


I agree about the advertisers calling the shots on ads. It bugs the crap out of me. A few years ago, I applied for a spot for a Bookbub ad for my omnibus. At the time, it was all four books in my series. (I've since published a fifth.) and I think I put the sale price at $3.99 or something. They accepted my book, but wanted me to price it at 99 cents. I was selling it for $9.99 normally, which I think is fair for four full length novels. I told them no because after someone bought that, they wouldn't have anything else to buy of mine at regular price. After that, I applied instead with a two book set from the same series, and even then, didn't really want to sell it for 99 cents, but it did end up being worth it as sales of the book at regular price of $5.99 was much higher for a few months afterward.

In a few weeks, my series comes out of Select, and I'm thinking I may raise prices by a dollar on a couple of my books. That would be very much inline with the Thomas & Mercer books in my genre. I don't feel like I'm competing with King and Koontz, but rather the Amazon Imprints and those books in my genre are priced between $3.99-$5.99 They get the kind of push I can only dream about.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Heather Hamilton-Senter said:


> I have to admit that I am less likely to buy at .99 - or at least I was till I published and began to understand the mechanics of Indie publishing and promotion. But when I was just a reader, .99 to me did not say quality. I could have been 1000 % wrong, but pricing higher is a powerful retail strategy that has been used since the beginning of, well, retail.
> 
> That said, an ebook above 5.99 would have needed to be something I very specifically wanted - not just something I came across while I was browsing. If it was new to me, for me to buy it, it would have needed to be either extremely compelling re: the cover/blurb, or a subgenre that I read voraciously.
> 
> ...


Maybe that's a genre thing. But if I can buy some of the biggest names in publishing through publishers for 99-2.99, then why wouldn't I. Why would I be less likely to by a Lisa Kleypas just because its 99 cents instead of 5.99 or 7.99. It's the same book. Price does not define quality for me. Never has. But then I have always been a voracious reader and library books don't cost me extra beside the taxes and I don't go in there and say, I don't value any of these books because I don't have to pay 5.99 for them. 
I don't really think I am that unique of a reader in that when it comes to fiction. How many library books have we checked out, how many used books have we scouted out for 50 cents, how many garage sales, how many boxes have sat at our mail building. I don't pick what I read by what I pay. I can read more though if I pay less. I like a book because I like a book.

A book is 11.99. I won't buy it. It might be 5.99 down the line. Or its on sale for 99 cents. Or I just get it for the library. I'll enjoy that book the same way either way.

This isn't like buying a Kia or a Acura. Its a book. Its a story. Its either good and enjoyable or not.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I am the exact opposite of the 5.99 poster.  I will not spend over $2.99 on a trad e-book and 3.97 is my limit on hardbacks.  
Ok I am cheap and know they will probably be in the thrift stores eventually. 
Now if an indie has hooked me at free or 99 cents, I will pay more for the rest of that series.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Moist_Tissue said:


> Betsy hates Pepsi. Why do people hate Pepsi?!


Pepsi is gross? 



Deanna Chase said:


> As a reader, I admit my threshold is $4.99. If something is interesting to me and priced $4.99 or less, it's a one click situation. Above that and I have to _really_ want that book. It's sort of irrational to feel that way about $1, but there it is.
> 
> Also before I started self-pubbing when I saw a 99 cent book I would blow right by it. But that was in 2010. I think considering how many 99 cent books end up in the top 100, that's probably not the majority opinion anymore.


Before I published I would only look at a 99c book if I'd already knew and read the author. But, yeah, *someone* is buying a ton of 99c books.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I wonder if some of the price difference is coming from voracious (library, on sale, 2nd hand) and the casual reader.  It seems the voracious readers are cheaper per book but spend more on books.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Monique said:


> Pepsi is gross?


*Faints dead away*


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

I am not a 99 cent buyer because 99 cents comes across as a special or clearance in my eyes. Plus, I could buy a 9.99 that is on my wishlist instead of buying ten 99 cent books. I only ever buy 99 cents if it is a book I know has been 9.99 and I know, I look at books every single day for deal posts for my blog. I will pay up to 12.99 for an ebook but usually buy in the 2.99 to 7.99 range. Ebooks are extremely affordable to me as a reader. I used to pay for trade paperbacks and hardcover books before ebooks came along, though.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Atunah said:


> Maybe that's a genre thing. But if I can buy some of the biggest names in publishing through publishers for 99-2.99, then why wouldn't I. Why would I be less likely to by a Lisa Kleypas just because its 99 cents instead of 5.99 or 7.99. It's the same book. Price does not define quality for me. Never has.


No doubt you are right. I think we forget though that everyone posting here is far more knowledgeable about pricing strategies than a reader generally is. Of course, if I saw a name I knew that was priced at .99, I would snap it up. But what about unknowns? Which, face it, most of us are. We know there's gold in those .99 to 2.99 hills, but not every reader does.

When your time is limited, you want to guarantee the proper bang for the buck. If I, even mistakenly, think that higher means better, that's the way I'll go.

But I'm not a library reader. I like to own books. So I am a certain type of buyer. A different one from Cinisajoy. I don't wait for sales or discounts on books I really want.

So the right question to ask is how to make people 'really want' our books. It's going to be a complicated formula of price/blurb/cover/genre/writing ability displayed in sample. And genre likely has a lot to do with it.

In the art world, my work had higher perceived value once I raised the price significantly. However, I backed up that promise with better than my competitor's work and customer service (this is for customized art which required proofs and back and forth with the customer - clarification, this was NOT my book covers business). I was terrified when I raised my price, but it worked.

I raised my price on my first book about a month ago from 2.99 to 3.99. Not huge, but I was terrified. I have not sold more, alas. However, I have not sold less and am now making more.

It's worth a try. You can always change it back!

Edited to add: of course, I realize that I'm still firmly on the cheap side! But it was a big step into the unknown for me. I have never been .99 with that book as a baseline price - just a couple of promos that really didn't end up worth it. I'd like to nudge it up further, but I'm still scared!


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Monique said:


> Pepsi is gross?
> 
> Before I published I would only look at a 99c book if I'd already knew and read the author. But, yeah, *someone* is buying a ton of 99c books.


I buy a lot of 99 cent books because it allows me to check out a new indie author for cheap. I don't believe in returning ebooks unless it's for extremely poor editing(more than just a few typos) or a formatting issue. Once I like and trust the author I will pay more. I'm also one of those people where free pays off. I actually do read free books and will buy more if I liked it. You are the perfect example. I love time travel and horror and history. When I found out you had Out of Time I downloaded it with the full intention of reading it and buying your others if it's for me. I edited to say your 3.99 pricing doesn't bother me at all, but it is your free one that got me in the door.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

katrina46 said:


> I buy a lot of 99 cent books because it allows me to check out a new indie author for cheap. I don't believe in returning ebooks unless it's for extremely poor editing(more than just a few typos) or a formatting issue. Once I like and trust the author I will pay more. I'm also one of those people where free pays off. I actually do read free books and will buy more if I liked it. You are the perfect example. I love time travel and horror and history. When I found out you had Out of Time I downloaded it with the full intention of reading it and buying your others if it's for me.


And that is part of my evil (free book one) plan.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Your buying habits sound like those of a lot of people. At least, that's what those who use free leads and 99c incentives hope.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Heather Hamilton-Senter said:


> No doubt you are right. I think we forget though that everyone posting here is far more knowledgeable about pricing strategies than a reader generally is. Of course, if I saw a name I knew that was priced at .99, I would snap it up. But what about unknowns? Which, face it, most of us are. We know there's gold in those .99 to 2.99 hills, but not every reader does.


For a complete unknown indy author?I am way more likely to pick up a book for 99 cents than 2.99. And that is with recommendations or other vetting. I don't just buy books on a whim anyway. So the indy can have a sale from me for 99 cents, or be put on a maybe list I might get to in 20 years, considering my tbr pile.

I also think it a mistake to think that readers are not knowledgeable about pricing. We are after all the ones paying for the goods. We are the ones making it possible for you guys to have a living. The money is coming out of my wallet, You bet I know exactly what I am paying, what other stuff costs and how I can save. We are _very_ savvy. I think its one of the biggest mistake some authors do. Underestimating the intelligence and knowledge of readers. We know a lot more than you guys give us credit for. I don't need to hang out here in the WC. Its just experiences as as life long readers. We know things. We are loyal, we have long memories.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> There is a groupthink we all must be 99 cents. We all must be permafree. We are indies we can't be priced higher because it doesn't work etc etc.


There isn't. There simply isn't.

What there is, is very strong feeling on loss leaders, and the people the OP has called on about "having only 99c and free books in their signatures", in fact, don't have only free and 99c books.

So there is a fair bit of backpedalling going on here.

Having all books at 99c works for some people, especially for shorter work, in conjunction with KU, but most of us here are using it as loss leaders.

That all books must be 99c is so ... 2012. It was the prevailing mood when I first joined the KB, when Amanda Hocking was still posting here.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I have not read all of Out of Time yet but I can tell you just from what I have read that you will enjoy it.

Now back to pricing:  I think it comes down to what readers do you want.    The cheap at first but will be loyal and shout your name from the roof tops or those that think higher prices equals value.

Thing is the people that only buy best sellers will not look at you until you become a best seller.
Now if you can hook someone like me or Atunah at a lower price for your first book, we will gladly pay more for the rest. 
Heck I would not have found my darling authors if they hadn't been free or 99 cents.    Or heck run a 99 cent special on the first in a series.    You might sell over a million books in less than 4 years.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Well, Atunah, I think you missed that I said that you were likely right in your previous statement, particularly about genre. You've got to make a reader want your book and there are various ways to do that, as there are various types of readers. 

But I was a completely unknown indie author and I was picked up at 2.99 and made it as high as #500 & change. So I'm very glad I didn't introduce at .99, even if the only reason for everything was dumb luck LOL.

I know the type of reader I was before I found Kboards. That reader would not buy .99 because she had so little time and wanted to guarantee a good experience. I'm more educated now. As are others. Others are not. 

But higher pricing is a tried and true retail strategy. Every industry has proven it. But, it's not the ONLY strategy.

Again, making the reader really want your book is the ultimate goal. It's worth exploring various strategies. A YA reader will respond differently to a strategy than a romance reader will. Probably. But the point of the OP was the value in pricing higher. There indeed is a value, many values. Whether it's the right strategy for you as a reader or for a particular writer is another matter.

But it is a strategy that works, even if it doesn't work for everyone, every time.....


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

cinisajoy said:


> I have not read all of Out of Time yet but I can tell you just from what I have read that you will enjoy it.
> 
> Now back to pricing: I think it comes down to what readers do you want. The cheap at first but will be loyal and shout your name from the roof tops or those that think higher prices equals value.
> 
> ...


I _have _ read Out of time and anyone that likes time travel with a twist will like it. 

I got hooked to series with free of low first book plenty of time. I got the first in the Fever series (Moning) free and ended up reading all 5 in one weekend with the 5th being 9.99. I never pay 9.99 for book. But I got hooked with the freebie. I value that one the same than the 9.99 I bought later. I either like it or not.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

I know for sure that a higher price does not necessarily equal value. I also have, in the past, promoted lots of authors on this board free of charge, without their asking, and once upon a time we had an ad program. If I know an author personally, have read them, or know of their character from seeing them across various forums they don't even have to ask, same for authors that my readers LOVE.  

Just because I buy at higher prices, 2.99 - 7.99, doesn't mean I don't promote authors who are pricing at 99 cents.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Aww, shucks. Y'all are making me feel all warm and googly. Thank you. *scuffs toe*


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I just stumbled across a series that has a very intriguing pricing strategy. Book 1 (ranked 2060) is priced $.99 and Book 2 (ranked 2159) is priced $2.99. Book 3 is priced $9.99 and is ranked 227. 

This looks to be the pricing method for this particular author. They are doing quite well.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I just stumbled across a series that has a very intriguing pricing strategy. Book 1 (ranked 2060) is priced $.99 and Book 2 (ranked 2159) is priced $2.99. Book 3 is priced $9.99 and is ranked 227.
> 
> This looks to be the pricing method for this particular author. They are doing quite well.


Wow, that's a big jump. Interesting.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> What there is, is very strong feeling on loss leaders


Loss leaders are another good strategy. They don't work every time either.

Maybe we make the mistake of thinking all books apply the rules equally. But there are different strategies for different types of art, music, cars, toasters, etc - you get the picture. Each audience has different requirements and is thus attracted by different strategies.

I keep using that word, don't I! When approaching this as a business, not an art, I'm constantly examining my 'tricks' and if they're working or not. As an artist/writer, I'm appalled that I'm considering using 'tricks' to get people to buy my work 

It's a constant battle to balance the art with the commerce......


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I just stumbled across a series that has a very intriguing pricing strategy. Book 1 (ranked 2060) is priced $.99 and Book 2 (ranked 2159) is priced $2.99. Book 3 is priced $9.99 and is ranked 227.
> 
> This looks to be the pricing method for this particular author. They are doing quite well.


That would just make me angry.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> That would just make me angry.


But honestly, why would that make you angry? By the time you read TWO books by the author and enjoyed them, wouldn't you agree that the author is still a good buy at $9.99? Or did the lower prices inform your opinion of perceived value? I'm not saying it did, I'm just bringing up the other way to think about the very real things our brains do about perceived value, though we think they don't. Either way, you're paying $4.65 on average for each book, which is cheaper than most paperbacks and $13.97 for how many hours of enjoyment with three full length novels?

This is what Bezos means about competing as a form of entertainment when he talks about ebooks. Many readers have no clue about who is on what forum, published by who, etc. they look at entertainment dollars as what do I get for the amount I paid for the time. Even just 6 hours of entertainment for $13.97 is a very inexpensive way to spend a weekend "in" and feel like you spoiled yourself.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

katrina46 said:


> That would just make me angry.


I don't think it would make me angry. At that point if you've read two books already, you should know if you like the author's writing and there shouldn't be any surprises. It's like when you go to the store and get a free sample along with a coupon for a dollar off a product. You loved the sample, bought the product using the coupon, and the next week, you decide to buy it again, only now it's full price. You wouldn't be angry that the product is full price would you? You wouldn't expect to get coupons every time, right? If it was only okay, then don't buy at full price, but if you loved it, you'll want to buy it if it's still about the same prices as all the other similar products.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> But honestly, why would that make you angry? By the time you read TWO books by the author and enjoyed them, wouldn't you agree that the author is still a good buy at $9.99? Or did the lower prices inform your opinion of perceived value? I'm not saying it did, I'm just bringing up the other way to think about the very real things our brains do about perceived value, though we think they don't. Either way, you're paying $4.65 on average for each book, which is cheaper than most paperbacks and $13.97 for how many hours of enjoyment with three full length novels?
> 
> This is what Bezos means about competing as a form of entertainment when he talks about ebooks. Many readers have no clue about who is on what forum, published by who, etc. they look at entertainment dollars as what do I get for the amount I paid for the time. Even just 6 hours of entertainment for $13.97 is a very inexpensive way to spend a weekend "in" and feel like you spoiled yourself.


Well, I took book 1 book 2 book 3 to mean it was a serial or series as though the author hooked you and then held the conclusion of the story hostage. If it were not a serial and I could decide if I wanted to buy another book by the author it wouldn't be so bad. If the way I explained that makes any sense.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Those are books in the series. The publisher has done this on both of the author's series.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> Those are books in the series. The publisher has done this on both of the author's series.


Then yes, I'd be angry. Some readers, not saying me, but some are on a strict budget. They simply cannont afford 9.99 on an ebook. They choose authors they enjoy in their price range. To get into a series and not be able to afford the last one would suck. I say just out of fairness to readers, price high or low, but don't jump around (at least not by that much)in one series. Start a new series at your higher price.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> Well, I took book 1 book 2 book 3 to mean it was a serial or series as though the author hooked you and then held the conclusion of the story hostage. If it were not a serial and I could decide if I wanted to buy another book by the author it wouldn't be so bad. If the way I explained that makes any sense.


Even that, held hostage. This is unfortunately an example of what impression readers CAN get when you have the first book low priced and then much higher prices later on in the series. If I'm going to take the time to meticulously plan out a series, with detailed outlines, what's happening we can't see but impacts later on etc. I'm doing so for the enjoyment of a reader to come with me the whole way. Even my Seasons books, I have 5 years mapped out, it's really a big epic tale to track the lives of Four Bennet sisters through five years, and the ultimate plan is come back full circle to where the whole story started with Mr. Bennet dying. I don't want people who get A Winter Wrong for free or 99 cents to think I am somehow keeping the rest of the story from them because everything else is $3.25. I did do a Kindle Countdown deal on the book and 30 people got it for 99 cents. LOL.

This doesn't always happen, but it can happen. Even a serial, by the end of the 99 cent book, you would know if the author ties everything up with a neat little bow or uses a cliffhanger style.

So yeah, nothing wrong with you feeling that way, nothing wrong at all. But it does go a long way to illustrating perceptions and how easy they happen and we don't even realize it. OT I love the show Brain Games.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> Then yes, I'd be angry. Some readers, not saying me, but some are on a strict budget. They simply cannont afford 9.99 on an ebook. They choose authors they enjoy in their price range. To get into a series and not be able to afford the last one would suck. I say just out of fairness to readers, price high or low, but don't jump around (at least not by that much)in one series. Start a new series at your higher price.


Yet, this book is in KU.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Well to me $9.99 wouldn't be full price. It would be way overpriced. No matter what I paid for the first in a series. And I am only talking series here as I don't do serials or chopped up into particles books. I have paid 9.99 exactly once for a ebook in like 8 years. There are very very very few authors that special I would ever consider paying that. Most I pay is 7.99 and even then it must be a very very special long loved author. 4.99 would be more in the full priced line for me. 

So yeah, 9.99 would make me a bit angry too if the first 2 in the series were much lower. 9.99 isn't a normal price for the genres I read though. Some urban fantasies come out at that, but instead of buying then, which I would have done at 4.99-7.99, i'll just get it from the library instead not spending any money. 

I read a lot, if I paid 9.99 for books, I'd live under a bridge and eating grass.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> Yet, this book is in KU.


Well, if I got started on that Betsy would come and tell me to move on. I also want to add I don't think a lot of writers take into account that readers are real people. To some, (not the drive by readers but the ones King refers to as constant reader) you are very important to them. They will get personally insulted if they think you are jerking them around with a marketing ploy. They will not buy anymore of your books. They will tell others not to buy them, because they want to believe they are important to you, too.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I just stumbled across a series that has a very intriguing pricing strategy. Book 1 (ranked 2060) is priced $.99 and Book 2 (ranked 2159) is priced $2.99. Book 3 is priced $9.99 and is ranked 227.
> 
> This looks to be the pricing method for this particular author. They are doing quite well.


Is the last book an actual installment? Because this is actually how mine appears if you're looking on Amazon: Book 1 Free, Book 2 2.99, Book 3 2.99, book 4 3.99, book 5 8.99

Buuuut, Book 5 is actually the collection of the first four and Amazon insists on listing the collection as the last in the series.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Even that, held hostage. This is unfortunately an example of what impression readers CAN get when you have the first book low priced and then much higher prices later on in the series. If I'm going to take the time to meticulously plan out a series, with detailed outlines, what's happening we can't see but impacts later on etc. I'm doing so for the enjoyment of a reader to come with me the whole way. Even my Seasons books, I have 5 years mapped out, it's really a big epic tale to track the lives of Four Bennet sisters through five years, and the ultimate plan is come back full circle to where the whole story started with Mr. Bennet dying. I don't want people who get A Winter Wrong for free or 99 cents to think I am somehow keeping the rest of the story from them because everything else is $3.25. I did do a Kindle Countdown deal on the book and 30 people got it for 99 cents. LOL.
> 
> This doesn't always happen, but it can happen. Even a serial, by the end of the 99 cent book, you would know if the author ties everything up with a neat little bow or uses a cliffhanger style.
> I think I'd be okay with going from 99 to 3.25, but going from the lowest extreme to the highest, no.
> So yeah, nothing wrong with you feeling that way, nothing wrong at all. But it does go a long way to illustrating perceptions and how easy they happen and we don't even realize it. OT I love the show Brain Games.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I have no idea how my reply got added into your quote, lol.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> Well, if I got started on that Betsy would come and tell me to move on. I also want to add I don't think a lot of writers take into account that readers are real people. To some, (not the drive by readers but the ones King refers to as constant reader) you are very important to them. They will get personally insulted if they think you are jerking them around with a marketing ploy. They will not buy anymore of your books. They will tell others not to buy them, because they want to believe they are important to you, too.


If all readers felt as insulted as you then I can't imagine that this book would be doing so well. Again, it is ranked #207 in the entire store, plus the book has 73 reviews with a 4.9 rating. Some reviewers are airing their opinion about the price hike, but they are also pointing out that they picked up the book through KU.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Is the last book an actual installment? Because this is actually how mine appears if you're looking on Amazon: Book 1 Free, Book 2 2.99, Book 3 2.99, book 4 3.99, book 5 8.99
> 
> Buuuut, Book 5 is actually the collection of the first four and Amazon insists on listing the collection as the last in the series.


It is the final book in a three part series. It is not all of the books in one collection.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> If all readers felt as insulted as you then I can't imagine that this book would be doing so well. Again, it is ranked #207 in the entire store, plus the book has 73 reviews with a 4.9 rating. Some reviewers are airing their opinion about the price hike, but they are also pointing out that they picked up the book through KU.


It doesn't matter if they all feel that way. I feel that way so I'd never buy that author again. But yeah, KU probably has a whole lot to do with that ranking.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

I think there is a point to be made here that if you start off pricing at a certain level, you set up an expectation that future books in a series will not vary wildly. I don't mind a difference of a dollar or two, but I think I would be annoyed if a first book was .99 and then the second was 9.99! 

While that may be an exaggeration, I return to my theory that crosses all products. A 2014 car that is $10,000 is then followed by a 2015 model that costs $20,000. That car sure as heck better be gold plated to justify that jump! And yet people buy perfectly good cars at $20,000 without expecting them to be covered in gold. ....

We need to respectfully manage readers' expectations. If we price high, we may lose one audience but we may also gain another willing to pay that price. We can give a price break after that, and it may be perceived as a deal, but it likely won't win us back the initial audience we lost. It may find a third audience that sees it as a bargain.

But if we price low and then yank that audience's chain and make them feel like they've been tricked into some scheme where they more they read, the more they are hooked, the more they pay, they will disappear just as surely.

There's a reason they teach marketing at university!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

The market is very entertaining/surprising when you spend even just 20 minutes looking at it.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

If Amazon is skewing things in favor of those in KU, maybe this is a publisher's tactic to drive borrows through KU as it increases the book's rank??


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Heather Hamilton-Senter said:


> I think there is a point to be made here that if you start off pricing at a certain level, you set up an expectation that future books in a series will not vary wildly. I don't mind a difference of a dollar or two, but I think I would be annoyed if a first book was .99 and then the second was 9.99!
> 
> While that may be an exaggeration, I return to my theory that crosses all products. A 2014 car that is $10,000 is then followed by a 2015 model that costs $20,000. That car sure as heck better be gold plated to justify that jump! And yet people buy perfectly good cars at $20,000 without expecting them to be covered in gold. ....
> 
> ...


 I'm really happy this is finally more a discussion, these are important considerations for all authors.  And I include katrina46 in that sentiment too! You and Atunah are bringing up very valuable counterpoints too. XOXOXO I also love red wine and Dove dark chocolate. FWIW


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> If Amazon is skewing things in favor of those in KU, maybe this is a publisher's tactic to drive borrows through KU as it increases the book's rank??


That could be. I suppose a KU reader could be even more likely to borrow a book that's 9.99 because they think they're getting a heck of a deal. Marketing strategy is a lot of psychology after all. I mean we know 99 cents is pretty much a dollar, but it just seems so much less than something priced at 1.02 When Walmart prices at .97, holy cow we're saving money now. I have no idea why this works so well.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I'm really happy this is finally more a discussion, these are important considerations for all authors.  And I include katrina46 in that sentiment too! You and Atunah are bringing up very valuable counterpoints too. XOXOXO I also love red wine and Dove dark chocolate. FWIW


I like anything chocolate.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> That could be. I suppose a KU reader could be even more likely to borrow a book that's 9.99 because they think they're getting a heck of a deal. Marketing strategy is a lot of psychology after all. I mean we know 99 cents is pretty much a dollar, but it just seems so much less than something priced at 1.02 When Walmart prices at .97, holy cow we're saving money now. I have no idea why this works so well.


You hit it Katrina. We shouldn't perceive it as different, but study after study shows that we do. Or at least some do. If I see something priced at 39.99, I always tell hubby it was $39 . He always sees that price and says the item is $45 - he always adds to it because he hates being 'tricked' into thinking something is lower.

But I fall for it every time!

BTW - I love dark chocolate too! But I'll go for the diet coke please.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

And... I think we are also assuming that these prices have remained constant throughout the book's lifetime. It could have been that each book was released at $9.99 and as time went by, the price was lowered.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> And... I think we are also assuming that these prices have remained constant throughout the book's lifetime. It could have been that each book was released at $9.99 and as time went by, the price was lowered.


That's true.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

What series is it?


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> And... I think we are also assuming that these prices have remained constant throughout the book's lifetime. It could have been that each book was released at $9.99 and as time went by, the price was lowered.


I wasn't referring to any particular series - was one referenced earlier? I apologize if it seemed my comments were directed at any author in particular - they were just musings on the topic.

Regardless, that's a really good point I hadn't thought of. I can buy a book on the remaindered table at the book store for a fraction of what I originally purchased it for. I think readers understand older books being discounted, but maybe not books released within a few months of one another. I have no idea if that applies to the series being referenced.

It's also easier to see a size of a book when it's in print. We do expect to pay more for a big fat book. Even with page numbers, it's harder to visualize online. The jump in price could be indicative of a much bigger book, but the reader might not immediately perceive that.

Hmmm, good food for thought.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Heather Hamilton-Senter said:


> You hit it Katrina. We shouldn't perceive it as different, but study after study shows that we do. Or at least some do. If I see something priced at 39.99, I always tell hubby it was $39 . He always sees that price and says the item is $45 - he always adds to it because he hates being 'tricked' into thinking something is lower.
> 
> But I fall for it every time!
> 
> BTW - I love dark chocolate too! But I'll go for the diet coke please.


That brings up another point. I've noticed a lot of authors actually are pricing their books at 1 dollar or 3.03 to catch the readers eye. It works. I'm so used to seeing 2.99 I always do a double take of an odd price. I wish we could hear from someone who has used this strategy. Actually, Elizabeth does this.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Yes and I add in superstition for good measure.  March 25 is my birthday. August 24 is hubby's. A collection of 3 novellas idea I have will be $6.23 (dear daughter) and when book 2 of moralities is ready book one will be $7.04 ( super stepson) and book 2 at hubby's birthday.

why not?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Yes and I add in superstition for good measure.  March 25 is my birthday. August 24 is hubby's. A collection of 3 novellas idea I have will be $6.23 (dear daughter) and when book 2 of moralities is ready book one will be $7.04 ( super stepson) and book 2 at hubby's birthday.
> 
> why not?


Maybe I'll try 1.01 and see what happens.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Looks like there is going to be more books in that series. So maybe they are releasing all of the books at $9.99.


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## heyhannajames (Jun 1, 2014)

I'll pay $14.99 for an ebook - I've paid $12.99 for a novella. That said, those were writers I was already familiar with. For a new writer, my limits would be $7.99, maybe as much as $9.99 with a friend or family recommendation.

But I'm severely picky, and I judge the first few pages of a sample harshly, so I buy few of the books I look at even though I'm a pretty voracious reader. I'd rather reread something I loved than pick up something meh. I also won't buy a book with a cover I dislike, regardless of the plot, because then I'd have to look at it.

Not all readers are cheap! Some are just picky.  I may be an anomaly to the extreme.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

heyhannajames said:


> I'll pay $14.99 for an ebook - I've paid $12.99 for a novella. That said, those were writers I was already familiar with. For a new writer, my limits would be $7.99, maybe as much as $9.99 with a friend or family recommendation.


I pay those kinds of prices all the time for paper, but I'm annoyed to pay them for ebooks.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Moist_Tissue said:


> Betsy hates Pepsi. Why do people hate Pepsi?!


Because it tastes bad? 

I'm here for the margaritas, myself....


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm with Betsy. If it's Pepsi or nothing, I'll drink nothing. But I'll guzzle gallons of the stuff before I put any of this in my mouth:


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Is that kale?  I'm with you.  A restaurant here has started putting kale in their caesar salads.  KALE!  *shakes head*

Betsy


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2015)

Heather Hamilton-Senter said:


> We need to respectfully manage readers' expectations. If we price high, we may lose one audience but we may also gain another willing to pay that price. We can give a price break after that, and it may be perceived as a deal, but it likely won't win us back the initial audience we lost. It may find a third audience that sees it as a bargain.


Well the general thought in sales is that you can always come down, but it is almost impossible to go up. There is a reason why companies do contortions to engage in price preservation. Once you drop a price, it becomes almost impossible to go back up. This is why food companies will simply make packages smaller and keep the price the same, instead of increasing the price on the same size. (Actually, if you pay attention to packaging of food, you will notice the number of servings actually changing every few months based on market conditions for food commodities! That box of Rice-a-Roni that has 3 servings per box today might only have 2.5 servings in March, but the price won't change.) This is why companies use coupons and rebates instead of lowing the price on items. Or they do bundles with a buy one/get one free instead of selling the item for half the price. Price preservation is a HUGE deal in business, because once consumers become conditioned to a price point, they don't want to budge.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

MichaelWallace said:


> I'm with Betsy. If it's Pepsi or nothing, I'll drink nothing. But I'll guzzle gallons of the stuff before I put any of this in my mouth:


Oh, my. Coke makes me violently ill and I haven't had one in probably 40 years. So it was Pepsi for me for a long, long time. Now, it's Dr. Pepper, although I had a Pepsi yesterday because the machine didn't have Dr. P.

But I love it when you ask for Pepsi and they say, "We have Coke. It's the same thing." Not by a long shot. Where I live now is Pepsi country and most of the restaurants now have Dr. Pepper, too.

But to stay on topic, my 99 centers keep me nicely supplied with Dr. Pepper.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Yes and I add in superstition for good measure.  March 25 is my birthday. August 24 is hubby's. A collection of 3 novellas idea I have will be $6.23 (dear daughter) and when book 2 of moralities is ready book one will be $7.04 ( super stepson) and book 2 at hubby's birthday.
> 
> why not?


*headdesk* This is why I'm struggling so mightily here. I want to move on. I really do. But it's like, I keep getting dragged back in by posts like this. If you want to price your books based on superstition, and then support that decision with "why not? ", can you see why it's tough for authors who spend countless hours researching pricing models and strategizing to have you tell them what they are doing can't be done or they're essentially making bad business decisions? Can you see the irony of that?

I hate feeling like I'm the bad guy or that I'm picking on you, because I don't even disagree with a lot of what you have said as far as other methods etc. But as an author who came to these boards early on to info-gather etc., I'm actually distraught that there are people genuinely trying to make a go of this that are reading this thread and thinking "Well, Elizabeth has made X dollars at this so she must know what she's talking about. If she says I'm not going to make a living writing at .99 cents, then she's probably right." When, for that particular person, in this particular market, that might be the exact move that catapults them from making $54 a month to $5400. That's what I'm really struggling with. Because you're also still trying to dilute the points that authors on the other side of this made, who are saying it CAN and IS being done by suggesting that, because we don't have our .99 books and/or pen names in our signature lines, that we are somehow not being forthright about our models. I have three pen names. Some authors have as many as four or five. Just because we don't show them here, doesn't mean that we're being untruthful. At a point, you really do have to stop for a second, look at what's in front of you and say, "I was wrong. .35 is NOT a valid # to use when calculating the royalty on a .99 book. Not even CLOSE to a valid #. And this model CAN work. It didn't work for me. I don't THINK it will work for you. But it CAN work." Again, look at Viola's posts on this board. There WERE no books over .99 for months and months on end, even before KU. We all watched her progress. I feel a little like I'm taking crazy pills because every time someone puts hard proof in front of you, you just ignore it and move along.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well the general thought in sales is that you can always come down, but it is almost impossible to go up. There is a reason why companies do contortions to engage in price preservation. Once you drop a price, it becomes almost impossible to go back up. This is why food companies will simply make packages smaller and keep the price the same, instead of increasing the price on the same size. (Actually, if you pay attention to packaging of food, you will notice the number of servings actually changing every few months based on market conditions for food commodities! That box of Rice-a-Roni that has 3 servings per box today might only have 2.5 servings in March, but the price won't change.) This is why companies use coupons and rebates instead of lowing the price on items. Or they do bundles with a buy one/get one free instead of selling the item for half the price. Price preservation is a HUGE deal in business, because once consumers become conditioned to a price point, they don't want to budge.


I understand why they do it, but it sure is annoying. I noticed recently that a brand of tissue paper had recently increased the size of the cardboard center so the rolls looked the same size but were actually smaller. Very sneaky.

As for books, I don't know if my experience is common or not, but last month, I raised the price of one of my nonfiction titles from $2.99 to $3.99 and the sales actually increased. Of course, some of that increase could have been Christmas buying, so it will be interesting to see if the increase in sales continues in the coming months. It could also be that nonfiction is different in this regard.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

vlmain said:


> I understand why they do it, but it sure is annoying. I noticed recently that a brand of tissue paper had recently increased the size of the cardboard center so the rolls looked the same size but were actually smaller. Very sneaky.
> 
> As for books, I don't know if my experience is common or not, but last month, I raised the price of one of my nonfiction titles from $2.99 to $3.99 and the sales actually increased. Of course, some of that increase could have been Christmas buying, so it will be interesting to see if the increase in sales continues in the coming months. It could also be that nonfiction is different in this regard.


On the whole, NF can support higher prices, from what I've read and heard. That's a great result!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Christine, I respect you too. Where we have a difference of opinion is what you think my original posts says and what I think it says. Nothing more. 

Of course, yes, I purposely wanted prices not ending in .99 because my strategy is to be on niche HNR and bestseller lists and part of having a different ending was choosing a number. I elected to use birthdays to choose another number. But the strategy isn't actually birthdays, it's a different ending, which others got right away. 

The hard proof you all keep throwing is for something I never was even talking about. And I ignore it as you say because again, to me, it's not what I was talking about. If you've tried the 99 cents and permafree and still seeing hardly any sales, why aren't you changing your strategy? That's the question. And many people, lurkers and those who posted here, have said when the 99 cents plan didn't work for them, they raised their prices, sold the same, and earned more. 

You and everyone else with thousands hitting your bank account every month are trying to tell others to just stay patient, stay patient it will happen. No. For many, it NEVER happens. So if you're going to write books, and see you only sell 5 month, put it at $2.99, make $10 a month and get a royalty check each month. 

And I really do hope those that are so reliant on outside marketing venues for visibility have a rainy day plan, because that's another part of the whining we prawns are seeing. Previous mega-earners so upset they aren't getting $20k a month anymore, all because of KU or whatever else they want to blame at the moment. Once you build a brand in a particular way, just as Julie and others have pointed out, it's very hard to change reader expectations. You have fewer options to adapt.

You're never going to convince me to use a permafree or 99 cent book to build a readership. I'm going to make $10k a month probably this year at some point just selling just 3,000 books at an aggregate royalty of $3.20 (anticipating about 60% of my sales coming from novellas and 40% from novels). Once I have my core readership and probably 20 books out there, then I'll consider using a 99 cent price point on The Trouble with Horses or something. But we'll see what the market is like in 2016, in might be even worse for loss leaders to gain visibility then without the juice of high priced advertising.

(I am being good too, I did write 1,000 words already today.  Got 5k transcribed to make sparkle now. Go team dragon masters  ) LOL


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> You and everyone else with thousands hitting your bank account every month are trying to tell others to just stay patient, stay patient it will happen. No. For many, it NEVER happens. So if you're going to write books, and see you only sell 5 month, put it at $2.99, make $10 a month and get a royalty check each month.
> 
> You're never going to convince me to use a permafree or 99 cent book to build a readership.


I appreciate the response. Just to clarify, I am NOT one of the authors telling people to be patient, or to keep riding out a strategy (or, because that's not apparently the right word, lol, a "tactic") that isn't working. Not at all. In fact, the people I see succeeding in this business most are the least patient around and are constantly tweaking what they do to sell. And my goal isn't to convince you to go permafree or .99. My goal, pretty much all the time, is to make sure that authors who are struggling don't take one piece of advice and run with it as fact, because there are soooo many facets to determining what's right for a particular author. Genre, length, current visibility, release schedule, and so on. I wanted to make sure that readers of the thread realize what .99 actually IS as far as royalty in pocket for some of us, and how it CAN work so they can have all the information to make an informed decision.

I do wish you good luck with your series and continued success.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Is that kale? I'm with you. A restaurant here has started putting kale in their caesar salads. KALE! *shakes head*
> 
> Betsy


I hear that cauliflower is the "new kale." I figure it's because people have figured out they can make mashed potatoes out of it. LOL


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

bobbic said:


> I hear that cauliflower is the "new kale." I figure it's because people have figured out they can make mashed potatoes out of it. LOL


And pizza.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

If someone is going to come here and grab one piece of advice and run with it without considering everything else, I don't know that you or I am going to be able to give enough warning labels.  

I've been absolutely as transparent as I can be short of giving people the login credentials to the KDP Dashboard about my strategies and what's worked. I've never told anyone this is the only way to do things, that is something that has been inferred by others. 

Even the often quoted two lines in the OP everyone is upset about, it's taking two lines out of context from the rest of the post. Anyone of us on any given day can have that happen to misconstrue entire meaning. As far as the headline, it's a headline. I can't write the whole post in the headline. 

There has been a ton of GREAT discussion in this post and I'm proud of that, lots of great strategies, ideas, and experiences shared. That's a win for everyone.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Chrisbwritin said:


> *headdesk* This is why I'm struggling so mightily here. I want to move on. I really do. But it's like, I keep getting dragged back in by posts like this. If you want to price your books based on superstition, and then support that decision with "why not? ", can you see why it's tough for authors who spend countless hours researching pricing models and strategizing to have you tell them what they are doing can't be done or they're essentially making bad business decisions? Can you see the irony of that?
> 
> I hate feeling like I'm the bad guy or that I'm picking on you, because I don't even disagree with a lot of what you have said as far as other methods etc. But as an author who came to these boards early on to info-gather etc., I'm actually distraught that there are people genuinely trying to make a go of this that are reading this thread and thinking "Well, Elizabeth has made X dollars at this so she must know what she's talking about. If she says I'm not going to make a living writing at .99 cents, then she's probably right." When, for that particular person, in this particular market, that might be the exact move that catapults them from making $54 a month to $5400. That's what I'm really struggling with. Because you're also still trying to dilute the points that authors on the other side of this made, who are saying it CAN and IS being done by suggesting that, because we don't have our .99 books and/or pen names in our signature lines, that we are somehow not being forthright about our models. I have three pen names. Some authors have as many as four or five. Just because we don't show them here, doesn't mean that we're being untruthful. At a point, you really do have to stop for a second, look at what's in front of you and say, "I was wrong. .35 is NOT a valid # to use when calculating the royalty on a .99 book. Not even CLOSE to a valid #. And this model CAN work. It didn't work for me. I don't THINK it will work for you. But it CAN work." Again, look at Viola's posts on this board. There WERE no books over .99 for months and months on end, even before KU. We all watched her progress. I feel a little like I'm taking crazy pills because every time someone puts hard proof in front of you, you just ignore it and move along.


I kinda got frustrated when the OP posted, a few responses back, that "finally, we're getting a discussion," as if this thread just now became a discussion because there were posters who finally agreed with her. This entire thread has been a good discussion, full of differing opinions and discussions about different strategy.

But, Elizabeth, on the whole, I think that you're awesome. I really, really do. In fact, your post about finding underserved genres was so well thought out and on point that I recommended it to others. You're probably one of the most, if not the most, helpful posters on the board.

But I do think that your original post in this thread was too black and white. I've read it several times, and I don't see the nuances that you want others to see. You even put the words "and I mean it!" in there, followed by a smiley face, but that means that, you know, you mean it. I don't think that your post makes clear, at all, that loss leaders are a good idea. And that's my whole problem. If you meant to put caveats in the original post, then they should have been there. Something like - "this advice is only for the struggling newbies, and it is not meant for established authors, and it's not meant to encompass loss leaders." There's nothing like that in the post - it's just "if you have more than one book free or .99, why?"

And that's the main problem I have with the post. There's no YMMV, or "I know that .99 works for many authors" in there.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

And that's what me and many others are starting to try to say. WHY do we have to put a caveat on every single post? These are all opinions. All of them. And the first line says  "new authors," so if that's not struggling newbie enough for you, I can't help that. The irony here is so many telling ME how I should post because they think I told them how they should publish.

I'm not here for people to adore me. The reason I said we're getting a discussion is because people were finally going "oh, Elizabeth didn't say I suck, she said this and I agree with some parts and I disagree with others." That is a discussion. Back and forth, hey you make a good point here, I disagree with you here because of XYZ. There was a whole lot of nastiness towards me early on in this thread for something I didn't even do and it just heaped on. I ignored it for the most part, sometimes taking the bait. Had nothing to do with what I said, everything to do with what people decided I said.

No one has to even tell the truth here, many anonymous posters say some pretty outlandish things. I've gone and checked even some of the claims of posters here saying "I earn just fine on 99 cents" and it must be on some super secret pen name because the name in the sig and books there are all ranked 1million + in the Paid Kindle Store and not ranking high on other outlets.  I

I have joined the discussion to say there is a place for loss leaders. Short of altering my original post, again, to stymie differences in interpretations I don't know what else you want me to do. 

I hate YMMV by the way. It's wishy-washy. It's passive-aggressive language we use to to deflect criticism, it's not valuable advice. It should be understood, and if it's not, then that's a much bigger problem for the person reading, not the poster. I'm not going to take the time to craft a well thought out post, with links, and data that just shows one slice of experience and then put at the end, "But what I do I know, YMMV."


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I'm not here for people to adore me.


And yet, a lot of us do! 

I agree, we should not have to include a caveat on every post. Everything we say is an opinion based on our own experiences. That should go without saying.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I adore everyone too! I really do. Even those that don't like me.  I truly separate that as much as I can from what people post here. There is no one here on KBoards I wouldn't help if I have the means to do so.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> data that just shows one slice of experience and then put at the end, "But what I do I know, YMMV."


But that's just it - the post wasn't about your personal experience. It was about .99 being a strategy that is over. DEFINITIVELY over. That's what tripped up me and so many others on this thread. I get that you're forceful, but the original post didn't read like an opinion to me. It read like fact - and the "facts" that were in the original thread was that .99 used to work and now it doesn't. You might think that you were misread or misconstrued, but, obviously, a whole lot of people read the post the way I did, which was why there was so much pushback on this thread.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

bobbic said:


> I hear that cauliflower is the "new kale." I figure it's because people have figured out they can make mashed potatoes out of it. LOL


I made a vow to eat clean for an entire month and tried cauliflower as mashed potatoes. It was not bad, but not mashed potatoes by any means.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well the general thought in sales is that you can always come down, but it is almost impossible to go up. There is a reason why companies do contortions to engage in price preservation. Once you drop a price, it becomes almost impossible to go back up. This is why food companies will simply make packages smaller and keep the price the same, instead of increasing the price on the same size. (Actually, if you pay attention to packaging of food, you will notice the number of servings actually changing every few months based on market conditions for food commodities! That box of Rice-a-Roni that has 3 servings per box today might only have 2.5 servings in March, but the price won't change.) This is why companies use coupons and rebates instead of lowing the price on items. Or they do bundles with a buy one/get one free instead of selling the item for half the price. Price preservation is a HUGE deal in business, because once consumers become conditioned to a price point, they don't want to budge.


Is that what's going on. Every time I buy a bag of chips there are less in the bag. I swear a bag of Doritos is only 1/4 the way full these days. The rest is all air.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Anniejacoby-

You have NO "YMMV" warning on your "Don't look to outliers" post. Your headline is just as attention grabbing as mine. You spout some pretty powerful ideas there too, some that directly contradict other theories, like Chris Fox's 10x theories which say DO look to outliers and go be one. And nowhere in there did you say if people look to outliers they are somehow less intelligent than you, but still, some people in that thread didn't like what you had to say either. I don't see you modifying your post (and you shouldn't, we all know you and know where you're coming from  ).

And then, you even took a very obvious swipe at me personally in that post, just didn't call me out by name. And that's why I am out of patience with the people who want me to apologize for not having a YMMV warning at the end of my post. 

And specifically quoting my sales on Cancelled was personal experience. 

I don't mean to hurt my friends' feelings. But don't tell me I am somehow doing something different than everyone else here. And I really think when others realize that right now, in 2015, more than 60% of their genre bestseller lists aren't priced below $2.99 they might start asking themselves if they still need to price low for visibility or if they're doing it because it the most popular idea.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> WHY do we have to put a caveat on every single post?


Specifying who your intended audience is isn't a caveat. It's being clear. Your OP lacked the transitions and such required for the nuances to be understood unless the reader assumed them. You don't seem to want to consider that possibility. That's your choice. But those people who read your post to mean what explicitly on the page weren't reading into it. They were just going by what's on the page vs. making assumptions about what you meant.



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I hate YMMV by the way. It's wishy-washy. It's passive-aggressive language we use to to deflect criticism


YMMV can be used passive-aggressively--pretty much anything can be used passive-aggressively--but it is not necessarily passive-aggressive. It can be a clarification that the writer is, in fact, using anecdotal evidence and is aware of that.

Not everyone who shares advice is aware that their advice is subjective rather than objective. "YMMV" makes that distinction clear for the reader.



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Anniejacoby-You have NO "YMMV" warning on your "Don't look to outliers" post.


You seem to be forgetting the definition of "outliers". /wry tone


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Elizabeth,  I never meant to hurt your feelings and I'm truly sorry if I did. In fact, my other post wasn't meant to disparage you at all.  I simply made the point that your results are not typical. I'm impressed as hell that you sell well with high prices.  Wish I could.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

If you wrote JAFF you too could sell at higher prices. If you write in ANY underserved niche you probably can.

And, then there's the problem of you not even realizing YOU ARE SELLING HIGHER   Good night, Saving Scotty is #12,000 in the Paid kindle store and is $4.99. How much higher do you want to go? It's 309 pages, have you tried even higher than $4.99? You have enough titles to experiment. 

I 100% thought $8.24 was going to fail and fail hard. My hands LITERALLY shook when I told the Kindle Store to post it. But it didn't. Crazy. Sometimes someone has to be the penguin pushed in that says "Hey, there's no polar bear here!" 

And until some other authors who have done the 99 cents and permafree lead in turn it off and see what happens with their sales right now, none of us will know the results. Authors might find they are leaving money on the table, or maybe they will not see the sales they once did and decide visibility is more important. Or maybe they'll have less sales but just make more and start a different strategy with a maturally grown (not maturally aged) readership. There's a bunch of different experiments that need to be done. 

We did see that mailling lists regularly grow at about the same rate, permafree or paid sales (Ed and I swapped that data somewhere in here).


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I think the ultimate lesson to take away from this discussion is that one shouldn't price high without an overall strategy and one shouldn't price low without an overall strategy.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I think you mean seal not penguin. No penguins in the Arctic. No polar bears in the Antarctic. 

Rue


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

ruecole said:


> I think you mean seal not penguin. No penguins in the Arctic. No polar bears in the Antarctic.
> 
> Rue


 It was from a political cartoon I saw years ago in one of my textbooks about voter cleavages and new policies. I'm a Poli Sci major with a concentration in leadership. I'm sure that never shows. 

But sure seals, sharks, penguins, polar bears, wherever they live, someone has to be first to jump in (and I don't think I am first, far far from it, but most who have found a way to sell high don't dare talk about it).


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I 100% thought $8.24 was going to fail and fail hard. My hands LITERALLY shook when I told the Kindle Store to post it. But it didn't. Crazy.


Raising prices is scary. I was terrified to go up one measly dollar. But it didn't affect my sales one way or the other.

Everybody, myself included, is so uptight about their pricing decision, whether it's .99 or not, etc... But folks, we can try out a price for a month, or a week , or a day. We can experiment and find the sweet spot for our particular book in our particular subgenre among our particular desired audience.

That's the beauty of Indie. I love that one person can declare definitively in a post that ".99 is the only way to go" and someone else can declare just as strongly "you're leaving money on the table at .99"! They're both probably right - because books aren't widgets that sell equally and are marketed equally across all boards. There's no magic formula of one thing that works for everyone.

Trad pub ebook prices are coming down. I think we should all be nudging up. Eventually it will even out to where Indies probably offer a bit of a break in price, but the perceived value of an ebook falls within a certain range which offers good value to the reader and decent returns for the writer.

It's early days though - who knows what the state of things will be even 6 months from now!


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> It was from a political cartoon I saw years ago in one of my textbooks about voter cleavages and new policies.


Ah, okay. Then I guess you're forgiven. The whole penguin and polar bear is a pet peeve of mine, being from Canada and all. 

Rue


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> If you wrote JAFF you too could sell at higher prices. If you write in ANY underserved niche you probably can.
> 
> And until some other authors who have done the 99 cents and permafree lead in turn it off and see what happens with their sales right now, none of us will know the results. Authors might find they are leaving money on the table, or maybe they will not see the sales they once did and decide visibility is more important. Or maybe they'll have less sales but just make more and start a different strategy with a maturally grown (not maturally aged) readership. There's a bunch of different experiments that need to be done.


I'll serve as an example for you. I turned off my 99-cent book after it had sold about 70,000 copies in a year and a half at 99 cents. Made it $4.99 like the rest of my books. I figured it had over 800 reviews, it was in Select, and I had a bit of a name now. What happened? My visibility and sales took a huge dive. As of a month ago, the book's permafree, and I'm starting to sell on other sites to help make up that difference at Amazon.

Depends what you consider to be selling "well." Visibility means a rank in the hundreds to 1000s. Visibility like that will make you sell more and more, to the tune of tens of thousands a month. Visibility like that is golden, IF what you want is to make tens of thousands a month rather than a thousand.

Nothing's a guarantee. But there's a reason that all the very biggest sellers in my genre (who make hundreds of thousands a month) are using permafree and/or cheap first-in-series. Because it works, especially in a huge market like Contemporary Romance where visibility is very hard to come by.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Excellent post Rosalind. I think marketing/pricing is going to be dictated by genre and what readers expect.

I'm just a lowly newbie so my voice doesn't carry a lot of weight, I know. However, I'm so glad I didn't introduce my first book at .99 as so many urged me to - I would have left a lot of money on the table if I had. But I have used .99 and my Select free days on my novella. The free days in particular really goosed the sales of the other book, even though the novella is not a prequel but set in the same 'universe' with a character from the first book.

It's the age old argument between meeting reader expectations and managing them. That said, I don't think I will ever permanently make my first book .99 or free  At the moment, that doesn't seem as necessary in my genre to get visibility. So if I don't have to, I won't. 

But things may change, I do accept that.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Rosalind thank you for sharing that!


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## Sylvia R. Frost (Jan 8, 2014)

Heather Hamilton-Senter said:


> Excellent post Rosalind. I think marketing/pricing is going to be dictated by genre and what readers expect.
> 
> I'm just a lowly newbie so my voice doesn't carry a lot of weight, I know. However, I'm so glad I didn't introduce my first book at .99 as so many urged me to - I would have left a lot of money on the table if I had. But I have used .99 and my Select free days on my novella. The free days in particular really goosed the sales of the other book, even though the novella is not a prequel but set in the same 'universe' with a character from the first book.
> 
> ...


If you've got a full novel wait until you've got the series out to 99 cents. Doubly true for permafree. I don't think you'll see any author advocating 99cents/permafree without the backlist to back it up. That is the point of 99 cents/permafree. OR short releases. But I'm glad that I priced my novellas at 2.99.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> My only advice is to know why you're doing something. Have a plan and a desired outcome. If the plan isn't working, try something else.


Excellent advice: Know why you are doing something, do it, have benchmarks to measure it by, and adjust as needed.

Jodi


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## jegarlick (Jun 23, 2013)

I HEART this post. I really do. And I HEART this author. And I agree, I seem to sell the same amount of books at whatever price I put them at...so I see your logic Elizabeth Ann. Trouble is... I need to find my readership...this YEAR'S continued quest...with some adjustments.

Anyone got a list of under-served genres? That would be awesome.

Secondly, how does one get Amazon to price match your now FREE loss leader book to FREE? It's been a week on other venues free...they don't seem to care. Sigh.


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## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

jegarlick said:


> I HEART this post. I really do. And I HEART this author. And I agree, I seem to sell the same amount of books at whatever price I put them at...so I see your logic Elizabeth Ann. Trouble is... I need to find my readership...this YEAR'S continued quest...with some adjustments.
> 
> Anyone got a list of under-served genres? That would be awesome.
> 
> Secondly, how does one get Amazon to price match your now FREE loss leader book to FREE? It's been a week on other venues free...they don't seem to care. Sigh.


You have fabulous covers! I want to go read them all now just from the joy of looking them over!


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

jegarlick said:


> I HEART this post. I really do. And I HEART this author. And I agree, I seem to sell the same amount of books at whatever price I put them at...so I see your logic Elizabeth Ann. Trouble is... I need to find my readership...this YEAR'S continued quest...with some adjustments.
> 
> Anyone got a list of under-served genres? That would be awesome.
> 
> Secondly, how does one get Amazon to price match your now FREE loss leader book to FREE? It's been a week on other venues free...they don't seem to care. Sigh.


I remember you from your earliest posts, and I remember loving your cover and your concept. SO excited to see book two on the near horizon, and with an equally gorgeous cover! Have you posted on the "Make it free" thread yet? Many times, just having few people report that it is free on other vendors will do the trick. Once, it took longer than a week so i just emailed KDP support (from your dashboard, go to "Help' and then, on the left, all the way down, select "Contact Us" and then choose "pricing and royalties"). Send them a message that lets them know that your book is and asking if they would please price match, then send link to your book on Amazon as well as the links to other vendors that have it free (starting with BN, Apple and Google Play. They don't much care about Kobo or any of the smaller places). This has worked for me 100% of the time, usually within 24 hours, so I'm hopeful it will for you as well. Once your book is free, you should be able to find lots of places to promo it. I bet you will see a marked difference in your readership (if i'm judging off that cover and concept).


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Is that what's going on. Every time I buy a bag of chips there are less in the bag. I swear a bag of Doritos is only 1/4 the way full these days. The rest is all air.


*SIDEBAR* Yep. They use the same cutting dies for the bags and just change the graphics to reflect the different weight. It also works in the reverse, however. When commodities bottom out and become super cheap, manufacturers increase the amount of product in the bag (because it actually becomes cheaper to buy huge quantities at that point) and you end up with more than you thought you would have. Some nutritionists believe this weight discrepancy between packages is one of the _many_ problems with our society's obesity epidemic. Nobody KNOWS what a 'serving size' is anymore because the packaging is always changing. If you are cooking for two people and you buy a box of something that says "two servings" you will always assume it is two servings. Then one day it becomes 2.5 servings now you are consuming more calories than you thought you were. This gets really problematic with items you would assume are single serving, like microwave soups. You get a microwave soup that says 100 calories per serving, but the container is 1.5 servings. Who eats one serving of a microwave soup and puts a half serving away? You generally don't even realize it so you are consuming 150 calories when you thought you were eating 100. Multiply that over a year. That becomes a lot of calories you didn't know you were eating.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

The lesson to be learned from all this: most business people weren't spanked enough as children.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> The lesson to be learned from all this: most business people weren't spanked enough as children.


I was spanked frequently as a child... Hated it! Funny thing is now as an adult, I sometimes enjoy a good spanking.

...and broccoli.

Funny how things change when we grow up


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2015)

L.L. Akers said:


> I sometimes enjoy a good spanking.
> 
> ...and broccoli.


At the same time?


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> At the same time?


No. Not even on the same day. Broccoli gives me gas...


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

L.L. Akers said:


> No. Not even on the same day. Broccoli gives me gas...


And the Olympic Gold Medal TMI goes to...


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Andrew Ashling said:


> And the Olympic Gold Medal TMI goes to...


I want you to remember that if we do that Award Thing discussed on the other thread. I'm up for two awards now:

TMI
AND
The Most Posts Deleted Before Hitting Post

(Hmmm... Maybe the broccoli post should have been one of the deleted post. Thanks for quoting me, Andrew, now it'll be here 4-ever)


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## jegarlick (Jun 23, 2013)

MzPiggy said:


> You have fabulous covers! I want to go read them all now just from the joy of looking them over!


Aaahhhhhhh!!!! Thank you SO MUCH MzPiggy!!! and if you do read them, let me know your thoughts!!!


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## jegarlick (Jun 23, 2013)

Chrisbwritin said:


> I remember you from your earliest posts, and I remember loving your cover and your concept. SO excited to see book two on the near horizon, and with an equally gorgeous cover! Have you posted on the "Make it free" thread yet? Many times, just having few people report that it is free on other vendors will do the trick. Once, it took longer than a week so i just emailed KDP support (from your dashboard, go to "Help' and then, on the left, all the way down, select "Contact Us" and then choose "pricing and royalties"). Send them a message that lets them know that your book is and asking if they would please price match, then send link to your book on Amazon as well as the links to other vendors that have it free (starting with BN, Apple and Google Play. They don't much care about Kobo or any of the smaller places). This has worked for me 100% of the time, usually within 24 hours, so I'm hopeful it will for you as well. Once your book is free, you should be able to find lots of places to promo it. I bet you will see a marked difference in your readership (if i'm judging off that cover and concept).


HI THERE! Thanks SO SO MUCH FOR THIS... I will look into all of this! And just a note: It is only IF ONLY I HAD that I'm marking free...not LUMIERE...working on a loss leader for LUMIERE...LUMIERE IS WAY TOO BIG to offer for free...two years of my life...oh my. THANKS AGAIN! J


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## jegarlick (Jun 23, 2013)

again...just for fun...

Anyone got a list of under-served genres? That would be awesome.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Ros,

I'd like to know who makes 'hundreds of thousands a month.'
Maybe they can treat the rest of us to a Happy Meal.

Wishful thinking, huh?


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

jegarlick said:


> again...just for fun...
> 
> Anyone got a list of under-served genres? That would be awesome.


Good luck with that!  Those on the know will probably never tell. If they did, their market wouldn't stay under served for long.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Kirkee said:


> Ros,
> 
> I'd like to know who makes 'hundreds of thousands a month.'
> Maybe they can treat the rest of us to a Happy Meal.
> ...


I know a couple of 'em. They write really good books.


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## Sylvia R. Frost (Jan 8, 2014)

Dark fae romance. I'm always looking for it I can never find it, with a mecurial handsome lead that's more Dr. Who than Conan the Barbarian. I'd write it myself but I'm booked up.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Dark fae romance. I'm always looking for it I can never find it, with a mecurial handsome lead that's more Dr. Who than Conan the Barbarian.


My lead isn't a fae, but there are elves in my story. But it isn't dark ... although Loki probably is the definition of mercurial.


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## Sylvia R. Frost (Jan 8, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> My lead isn't a fae, but there are elves in my story. But it isn't dark ... although Loki probably is the definition of mercurial.


Really I just want more high-quality Labyrinth fan fiction. But alas the glory days are over. When I'm rich and famous I will hire young talented writers to write my Labryinth Fan fiction.

*weird author dreams*


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Actual heroic fantasy (NOT. Dark. If it broods, it bleeds) with a solidly thought out magic system is nothing but superstars and fizzles--and some of the superstars aren't very good. And I will cram money down your throat so hard, you will suffer from fiscal reflux if you put out a good one.

Also fantasy not set in the middle ages or contemporary urban settings. Gaslamp Fantasy, Weird West that isn't horror, non-paranormal steampunk, and stone/sandal/gear and sorcery are starving for anything that isn't an RPG supplement.


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## jegarlick (Jun 23, 2013)

See now, THIS is shaping up into a neat conversation...any more ideas?


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

jegarlick said:


> See now, THIS is shaping up into a neat conversation...any more ideas?


I'm always searching for Historical paranormal. Seems a pretty under-served niche. I've put it on my To Be Written pile, but I'd rather read it...


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## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

Evenstar said:


> I'm always searching for Historical paranormal. Seems a pretty under-served niche. I've put it on my To Be Written pile, but I'd rather read it...


Ooh, I'm writing this at the moment (well, have been for the past three or so years, on and off). A sorceress, a werewolf (well, he isn't a typical werewolf, it's more my take on the origins of a werewolf), an ex-court jester, a monk and a cannibal (except he's a lot more complex than just being a "cannibal") are the main characters and it's set in the 14th century.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> I'm always searching for Historical paranormal. Seems a pretty under-served niche. I've put it on my To Be Written pile, but I'd rather read it...


I'm writing a YA series based on Irish folk songs. My first two releases are The Molly Malones (Contemporary YA Horror), Siuil a Run (LGTBQ Historical YA), Danny Boy (LGBTQ Historical), and He Moved Through the Fair (Historical Paranormal YA). I'm right there with ya.


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## Ancient Lawyer (Jul 1, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Actual heroic fantasy (NOT. Dark. If it broods, it bleeds) with a solidly thought out magic system is nothing but superstars and fizzles--and some of the superstars aren't very good. And I will cram money down your throat so hard, you will suffer from fiscal reflux if you put out a good one.
> 
> Also fantasy not set in the middle ages or contemporary urban settings. Gaslamp Fantasy, Weird West that isn't horror, non-paranormal steampunk, and stone/sandal/gear and sorcery are starving for anything that isn't an RPG supplement.


I write fantasy not set in the Middle Ages. I think you could call it Gaslamp Fantasy. It involves frontiersmen building steam railways through an alternate version of France. I've found it really hard to categorise.



Moist_Tissue said:


> I'm writing a YA series based on Irish folk songs. My first two releases are The Molly Malones (Contemporary YA Horror), Siuil a Run (LGTBQ Historical YA), Danny Boy (LGBTQ Historical), and He Moved Through the Fair (Historical Paranormal YA). I'm right there with ya.


That sounds cool!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Sylvia R. Frost said:


> Dark fae romance. I'm always looking for it I can never find it, with a mecurial handsome lead that's more Dr. Who than Conan the Barbarian. I'd write it myself but I'm booked up.


I wrote a dark fae romance. Worst selling of any of my novels, alas. Maybe I should have made the heroes more mercurial.


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