# WARNING: My protagonist is gay!



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Should books come with such disclaimers? I find the suggestion reprehensible. And yet, that's what at least one reader suggests.

Of course, I'm not going to change a thing. I'm just interested in your opinion, as writers. Should our synopses include something about our protag's sexual orientation?

For me, the great thing about the book in question is that homosexuality isn't the point of the story. It's not the driving force behind the character or their great hurdle to overcome. It's just a fact. One of the best fan e-mails I ever received was from a reader who appreciated this very thing. If 6 - 8 percent of the population is gay, shouldn't 6 - 8 percent of our characters be? Protagonists included?

Here's looking forward to the day when this isn't even an issue.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Maybe we should all just replace our blurbs with warnings instead. 

This books contains *gasp*
Foul language
Sexual situations
Homosexuality
Kissing between people of different races
Cordial interactions between Jews, Muslims, and Christians
A character who leaves the toilet seat up
Etc etc.  

I'm with you Hugh. Looking forward to a day when any of that equals a great big "so what?"


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I was totally into BIGFOOT HUNTERS until that one guy left the toilet seat up.

I'm sorry, man, but some things are unforgivable.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, I don't know about making 6 - 8 percent of my characters gay. I just write my characters however they come to me and so far I've never had a gay character. However, I definitely don't think any book needs to have a disclaimer warning readers about a possible gay character.  I think a lot of people (especially some religious people) feel uncomfortable with homosexuality and become upset if they read about (and fall in love with) a gay character without being warned first.  But I don't think that's our problem as writers. We can't pander to other people's issues.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Warning: My protagonist is gay. And black. And is a Republican. And...and...drives a foreign car. And he is going to sing the praises of that cheap beer you hate.

Get over it.

I think that if this sort of thing bothers a reader, then frak 'em. I don't have to cater to their prejudices any more than they have to read my book.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I was totally into BIGFOOT HUNTERS until that one guy left the toilet seat up.
> 
> I'm sorry, man, but some things are unforgivable.


You should see what he does in the sequel.


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## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

Hey, romance readers reject musician and athlete heroes, too.

It often surprises me the effort people will put into taking offense.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Hmm, my answer to this one will be deeply nuanced and ambivalent: No.


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## Romi (Apr 4, 2011)

WARNING: "My Indian protagonist lady makes out with a forbidden white dude."....sorry?

Of course I SHOULD be apologizing to my parents for that   , but never to the world at large, and I won't!!


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## HezBa (Jan 24, 2012)

I think putting that warning would suggest there is something offensive or wrong about it. So I'm pretty much with the rest of people on this- No way!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Should books come with such disclaimers? I find the suggestion reprehensible. And yet, that's what at least one reader suggests.
> 
> Of course, I'm not going to change a thing. I'm just interested in your opinion, as writers. Should our synopses include something about our protag's sexual orientation?
> 
> ...


None of that should be an issue. There are a number of novels out there where the fact that the character is gay is not the driving force, by the way. It shouldn't matter one way or the other.

Yes, we should have characters in our novels who are gay. Only once have my readers become aware of the fact that one of my characters was gay though. Often the reader wouldn't know with secondary characters, just as we often don't know the true sexual orientation of the people we casually interact with. (Most people assume that I'm straight and they're wrong)

So, no. Absolutely no warning is needed.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Should our synopses include something about our protag's sexual orientation?


IMO, only if it's relevant to the book, i.e. it's a same-sex romance, or a coming-out story, or so on. And then it's much less of a "warning" and more of a marketing thing, really, to help coerce people explicitly looking for that kind of thing into buying your book.

I'm at that point with my next novel where I'm idly thinking about how to write the blurb, and, believe me, 'WARNING: My protagonist is gay!' is a walk in the park, comparatively speaking. _'WARNING: One of my protagonists is gay, and one is ideologically opposed to arbitrary definitions of gender or orientation, though they aren't preachy about it, don't worry. Also, one supporting character is gay; one other character isn't, then is, then isn't again, much to the consternation of a former partner; and one additional character claims they aren't, but seems suspiciously bi-curious. Humans, huh? Go figure.'_


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## Rosen Trevithick (Oct 19, 2011)

What a laughable suggestion! Unless every author of a book without a gay protagonist is going to add "My protagonist is straight"...


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## FrankZubek (Aug 31, 2010)

My feeling is that as long as they show up and do their share of the work and contribute to the community I have no problem
And that applies to real life people as well as fictional characters for me

But then again we're discussing protagonists right?

And actually- I have found that ( in many cases in real life) its the straight ones who tend to cause more problems


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Hugh, you don't have to inform anyone! The first outraged 1-star reviewer will do it for you.  

But ... hopefully there will be few of those.

Anyways ... good on you for being diverse in your book casting! I write characters of all colors, and gay ones too, and it's always a risk. One book at a time, things change. HIGH FIVE!


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

All my main characters are gay. Why? Because I wrote my stories like that. Are they gay novels for that reason? Or because there are some explicit scenes in them?

No idea.

I wrote on my website: _"All my novels contain male on male action, often very explicit. You could call them gay, slash, yaoi, m/m-romance, though none of those terms defines them accurately."_
And about my Dark Tales-series: _"I actually don't know how to classify these books myself.
There is definitely a lot of gay action of the explicit kind, though I doubt porn-lovers will be thrilled. There is m/m-romance, but a lot grittier than you would expect. There is domination, but the books are definitely not BDSM novels. They might appear to be slightly yaoi, but the uke doesn't behave as he should and neither does the seme. They are definitely Fantasy, yet there is no magic, there are no wizards, and the only dragon is a heraldic one.
I'm afraid I've not respected the tropes of the genre(s). Besides that, there is also a lot of political intrigue, questions about right and wrong and warfare. I've tried to keep these themes interesting, but as always, YMMV."_

While I love writing gay characters, I'm much more interested in the political intrigue and the struggle for survival in a brutal society.

Of course, they are always classified as Gay Fiction, never as Historical Fantasy.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

_The Old Mermaid's Tale_ has a gay character and so far nobody has even mentioned him to me. My current WIP, _The Whiskey Bottle in the Wall_, has 2 gay couples (one male, one female) and I have no intention of "warning" anyone about any of it. The protagonist of _Depraved Heart_ is bi/multi-racial which does not seem to keep women from falling in love with him. Characters are characters and as long as they are well-written that's all that matters.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm with you Hugh, it's ridiculous.

I do put a disclaimer in my blurbs if my stories contain profanity and are for adults. I think it's fair to warn parents. But that's as far as I'm prepared to go.


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## Martin Perry (Aug 2, 2011)

No. Beyond the obvious offence, it seems pretty crazy to warn readers about anything! Do they want some SparkNotes with their eBook?


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## GWakeling (Mar 23, 2012)

Great thread Hugh. 

As other's have said, unless the particular issue is a key idea in the story and so not disclosing it in the blurb is silly, I don't think we need disclaimers of this kind at all. Like you've said, your character is gay but the story doesn't revolve around that, that's just how it is. Fact.

I think this is actually a huge bonus for literature as authors can actually just throw it in there. 'Hey, this character's gay and it doesn't matter'. 'Hey, this couple are interracial and it's wonderful, but no one in the story blinks an eyelid'.

Wonderful!


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Rosen Trevithick said:


> What a laughable suggestion! Unless every author of a book without a gay protagonist is going to add "My protagonist is straight"...





> John Johnson is an alpha male, Eta Beta Pi, ROTC cadet, and all-around BMOC. For three glorious semesters he's been using one of the busty basketball cheerleaders to help him with his homework - and insatiable sexual appetite. Now, however, her overprotective step-brother is back from Afghanistan, and eager to readjust to civilian life - including, apparently, meddling in his step-sister's personal life. Will this headstrong Marine ruin everything J.J. has worked so hard to achieve, or is there room in his step-sister's life for two six-foot-six alpha males?
> 
> *Dude*, by Rusty Wurlitzer, is a 69,000-word novel filled with awesomeness, masculinity, virility, and the unabashed glorification of heteronormative patriarchy.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

dalya said:


> HIGH FIVE!


High Five!

(Didn't want to leave you hanging)


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I include warnings for graphic violence, swearing and explicit sex in my book descriptions where appropriate, but I have never considered warning about gay or lesbian characters (unless they were having explicit sex, which so far they aren't). Some people simply happen to be gay or lesbian or bisexual and readers should deal with it. If my including gay and lesbian characters bothers certain readers, I can't help them, anymore than I can help it if my mentioning of spiders accidentally annoys an arachnophobe.

I have a story with a lesbian protagonist, one with a bisexual protagonist (which nobody has picked up on yet, probably because she is with a man in the story) and another with a gay secondary character (and that's just the published ones) and I don't mention either character's orientation in the blurb, though the story with the lesbian protagonist is tagged with lesbian, GLBT and f/f. It's my bestseller and as a result, Amazon now has me classified as a writer of lesbian fiction and I keep finding tags like "lesbian" even on books of mine where every character happens to be straight.


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## FrankZubek (Aug 31, 2010)

Stating that a character is gay COULD be seen as another way to describe that character so that the reader gets the most fully rounded description of that character that they ( the reader) can carry with them through the story
( I mean beyond describing 'her slim build or brown hair or her preferring beer instead of wine coolers. )

The problem is that the gay tag automatically pulls some readers out of the story and that's not good

Then again, its not the writers fault that a portion of readers prefer ( or assume that) all of their reading material should  conform to THEIR point of view of the world

Writers need to be free to write whatever they please and leave mild guides as to the content ( language, violence - much like movies do  "PG"  "R" etc) but beyond that the readers are just a free to not buy anymore books by that author.

Its the old adage of "If you don't like what you are watching- change the channel!" and others will be free to keep watching without having to hear you ranting


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Some people see "the gay agenda" and "proselytizing" in the mere fact of acknowledging that gay people exist, let alone actually *gasp* having a gay character in your books. You're not going to make every reader happy, nor should you try. I'm all for labeling books about things that might reasonably be considered offensive (language, explicit sex, violence), but if people want warning that there may be gay characters... well, that's their problem, not ours.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

DDark said:


> Here's a snippet of a "fan email" i received. I should preface by saying there is no gay relationship in my book. I simply wrote a gay sub character who has small roles and is funny, real, and remarkable.
> 
> 
> Love it.
> ...


I'm not surprised you got that email. A lot of folks don't have the opportunity to be friends with gay people, and the unknown makes them uncomfortable. The idea of getting to know a character, liking them, and then finding out ... shocking. Like what they did on my favorite TV show, Southland. I'm sure they lost viewers from that. But good for them, for being brave, and also telling great, human stories.

Putting books out really opened my eyes to how different all the people in the world are ... how very different they are from my tiny group of friends and very liberal social circle.


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## AmberC (Mar 28, 2012)

God forbid characters be anything but white, right handed and heterosexual. Good for you Hugh. Shame on idiots.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

dalya said:


> I'm not surprised you got that email. A lot of folks don't have the opportunity to be friends with gay people, and the unknown makes them uncomfortable. The idea of getting to know a character, liking them, and then finding out ... shocking. Like what they did on my favorite TV show, Southland. I'm sure they lost viewers from that. But good for them, for being brave, and also telling great, human stories.
> 
> Putting books out really opened my eyes to how different all the people in the world are ... how very different they are from my tiny group of friends and very liberal social circle.


Actually they have the opportunity. It is a rare person who doesn't know _someone_ who falls somewhere under the LGBt umbrella whether they know it or not. But would YOU be eager to tell that bigot your sexual orientation? Well, I might be but a large part of the LGBT population still is not out or out only to a few people they trust. Then there is the group who are so deep in the closet they deny it to themselves.

Edit: The gay proselytizing remark exposes the writer's fear that if you read about a gay person it will give you gay cooties and turn you gay.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I have two gay characters in my books. Neither of them has their sexuality really interfere with their job so it's really only mentioned in passing. 

And, of course, yeah. There are more in the background. Six to eight percent, something like that.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

dalya said:


> The idea of getting to know a character, liking them, and then finding out ... shocking. Like what they did on my favorite TV show, Southland. I'm sure they lost viewers from that. But good for them, for being brave, and also telling great, human stories.


While he was in the closet at work until season...three?, Cooper was outed to viewers in about the second episode of the first season. Just sayin'.



DDark said:


> Here's a snippet of a "fan email" i received. I should preface by saying there is no gay relationship in my book. I simply wrote a gay sub character who has small roles and is funny, real, and remarkable.


I'm not-so-eagerly awaiting "fan mail" from readers who view a goat's angsting over his supposed infatuation with two sheep as some sort of commentary on interracial relationships. Which is _totally_ not how it was intended, honestly. The other day I was having dinner when I suddenly went "Oh crap, I've got a black goat who struggles with whether it's possible to have a romantic relationship with two white sheep. I am so going to get letters from people with strongly-held views..."


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## jmkwriter (Sep 14, 2009)

Well, this is going to be the unpopular opinion, but....

I'm gonna say yes and no.

No because there's always going to be one reader that's going to get pulled out of the story by something that only they would be bothered by. I had this reviewer who had a real problem with the fact that my characters jumped out of a plane 45,000 ft. Obviously this reader knew more about planes than I did and this was a real sticking point for them, and it completely pulled them out of the story. You're not going to please everybody. (Strangely enough the reviewer didn't have any problem with the ninja bikers that popped up later in the story.)

And on the other hand....

I'm gonna say yes, you should include a disclaimer. This is purely from a personal point of view, but I believe that there is a massive push in the entertainment industry to prove that homosexuals are "just like us." I've gotten more than a little burned out by having it shoved in my face every day. I would like to know what I'm getting into before opening the book. 

I have books that do include sex scenes and I mark them right away with the label: Recommended for Mature Readers, 18 and Up.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

jmkwriter said:


> Well, this is going to be the unpopular opinion, but....
> 
> I'm gonna say yes and no.
> 
> ...


Would you give me the list of all of the thousands of lesbian characters who are being "shoved in your face" every day?

Somehow they missed me. I can think of a handful--and I mean a TINY handful--of gay characters in mainstream entertainment.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bah, those emails are tres annoying. 

I got a great story for you. Harvest Moon's male love interest is bisexual and the heroine has an accidental sex change. I had reviewers put warnings on their reviews about the sensitive nature of the story. I'm like, people seriously? I don't even think they kiss in the story. 

Road to Hell's heroine is a married lesbian. You don't find out until chapter 10 (I think) because it's not important to the story. The book isn't about her lesbian marriage in space. It isn't about the role of a lesbian as a space captain. It isn't about the trials of homosexuality in space. The book is about a woman setting aside her morals for survival of her species. There's no way I'd allow a warning put on that for her sexual orientation.

*grumbles*


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Would you give me the list of all of the thousands of lesbians who are being "shoved in your face" every day?
> 
> Somehow they missed me.


I know a few lesbians who have had a difficult time finding partners. I'm sure they wished lesbians were shoving it in their faces so they'd have an easier time finding potential partners.

(I'm so going to hell for that above comment)


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## momilp (Jan 11, 2010)

Well, almost all my characters are since they live in a universe where heterosexual love is taboo. My blurbs take care of explaining that; will see if it's enough to keep the haters away. But, to answer the original question, in my opinion there shouldn't be a warning about characters' sexual orientation, unless it drives the story. In that case, it wouldn't be a warning, but just part of the blurb.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I know a few lesbians who have had a difficult time finding partners. I'm sure they wished lesbians were shoving it in their faces so they'd have an easier time finding potential partners.
> 
> (I'm so going to hell for that above comment)


You're gonna burn for that one. 

Edit: One of my gripes IS the almost total lack of lesbian characters in mainstream media. You will find a FEW gay characters (and darn few of them so I do wonder how they are being shoved in someone's face), but lesbians? We don't exist.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

DDark said:


> Here's a snippet of a "fan email" i received. I should preface by saying there is no gay relationship in my book. I simply wrote a gay sub character who has small roles and is funny, real, and remarkable.
> 
> 
> Love it.
> ...


WTF? Patricia Briggs, Kim Harrison, and Charlaine Harris, just to name a few right off the top of my head, all have gay relationships. Of course they are classified urban fantasy, and so is yours I believe. I have your novel on my kindle already, but haven't made it to it yet. It just moved up in my list.


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## GWakeling (Mar 23, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I know a few lesbians who have had a difficult time finding partners. I'm sure they wished lesbians were shoving it in their faces so they'd have an easier time finding potential partners.
> 
> (I'm so going to hell for that above comment)


I know a few too. Maybe we should do some cross continent shoving in faces.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Harper Alibeck said:


> You mean, like, human?


SHOCKING!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

GWakeling said:


> I know a few too. Maybe we should do some cross continent shoving in faces.


*so going to burn*


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

jmkwriter said:


> And on the other hand....
> 
> I'm gonna say yes, you should include a disclaimer. This is purely from a personal point of view, but I believe that there is a massive push in the entertainment industry to prove that homosexuals are "just like us." I've gotten more than a little burned out by having it shoved in my face every day. I would like to know what I'm getting into before opening the book.


Yeah. Think about how gay people feel about all that entertainment and advertising that shoves heterosexuality in our faces all day ...

I think it's great that gay people and couples are showing up in more places across the entertainment spectrum - even when we're just background color. Even Star Trek the newer novels have some gay minor characters and have included some single gender married couples. That said, I can see how some people could see that as an agenda being pushed - especially if they don't know about the gay people in their everyday world ....

but in answer to Hugh's question, I don't think disclaimers are necessary. There is always someone who will be offended by something and you can't cater to everyone's tastes. Besides, if you tried, you would end up with the blandest book in the history of ever.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Edit: One of my gripes IS the almost total lack of lesbian characters in mainstream media. You will find a FEW gay characters (and darn few of them so I do wonder how they are being shoved in someone's face), but lesbians? We don't exist.


Making Captain Frances a lesbian in a relationship was one of the most interesting decisions of my writing career, in terms of reader reaction. Some people stopped reading the books. Others spent the entire first 1/3 of the book assuming she'd hook up with her XO, and still others "knew" she was gay because she was asexual in her command style (don't worry, I'm confused, too).

Then again, plenty of people got teary-eyed when her wife shows up on the station. And plenty of people didn't care that she was gay, straight, or asexual. They cared about the decisions she made.

If a few people put the book down because it offended them, good for me.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> you would end up with the blandest book in the history of ever.


...and that would offend people.


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

jmkwriter said:


> I'm gonna say yes, you should include a disclaimer. This is purely from a personal point of view, but I believe that there is a massive push in the entertainment industry to prove that homosexuals are "just like us." I've gotten more than a little burned out by having it shoved in my face every day. I would like to know what I'm getting into before opening the book.


Ouch. The number of responses I want to make to this overloaded my brain and caused a misfire.



DDark said:


> Here's a snippet of a "fan email" i received. I should preface by saying there is no gay relationship in my book. I simply wrote a gay sub character who has small roles and is funny, real, and remarkable.
> 
> 
> Love it.
> ...


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Would you give me the list of all of the thousands of gay characters who are being "shoved in your face" every day?


Remember that cancelled TV show "Better Off Ted"? The character Veronica - who was purely heterosexual and slept with the titular, male, character - was played by a ridiculously gorgeous lesbian actress. I miss that show. It was made of win. Win, and sarcasm. Okay, mostly sarcasm. And a Dalek, in one episode. But I still loved it. It made me want to work in an office for a while again, just so I could play Linda Bagel.

Oh, and according to about 98% of the fanfiction involving her, Erin Esurance is a lesbian. Which I think makes her about as gay as ADA Sutherland was on Law and Order. Oh, and there's a bisexual woman on Skins in the UK, and what's-her-face from Lost Girl is bi, too. And you have to kind of wonder about Marlene on The Penguins of Madagascar, right?

Damn that insidious, all-pervasive gay agenda. 

_--George, who totally ships Rizzoli x Isles, but doesn't everyone, really?_


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

In my Bourbon Street series, one of my characters is a lesbian and another is bisexual. I've never had anyone complain or say anything about it. If they did...well, that's their problem. Not mine. 

I strongly oppose a "warning" for any book that contains a gay character, protagonist or not. If it's a relationship novel, the blurb should take care of it. If not, sexual orientation just doesn't matter.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Making Captain Frances a lesbian in a relationship was one of the most interesting decisions of my writing career, in terms of reader reaction. Some people stopped reading the books. Others spent the entire first 1/3 of the book assuming she'd hook up with her XO, and still others "knew" she was gay because she was asexual in her command style (don't worry, I'm confused, too).
> 
> Then again, plenty of people got teary-eyed when her wife shows up on the station. And plenty of people didn't care that she was gay, straight, or asexual. They cared about the decisions she made.
> 
> If a few people put the book down because it offended them, good for me.


If you're not offending someone, you're not doing your job. (Edit: As though Krista needed to be told that.  )

By the way, all those people who say there is a "gay agenda". d*mn right and a scary one at that. Civil rights. The right to hold a job without fear of being fired. The right NOT to be beaten and left in a field to die. (Yeah, and buy milk  )

Man, those d*mn gays and their agenda.



George Berger said:


> Remember that cancelled TV show "Better Off Ted"? The character Veronica - who was purely heterosexual and slept with the titular, male, character - was played by a ridiculously gorgeous lesbian actress. I miss that show. It was made of win. Win, and sarcasm. Okay, mostly sarcasm. And a Dalek, in one episode. But I still loved it. It made me want to work in an office for a while again, just so I could play Linda Bagel.
> 
> Oh, and according to about 98% of the fanfiction involving her, Erin Esurance is a lesbian. Which I think makes her about as gay as ADA Sutherland was on Law and Order. Oh, and there's a bisexual woman on Skins in the UK, and what's-her-face from Lost Girl is bi, too. And you have to kind of wonder about Marlene on The Penguins of Madagascar, right?
> 
> ...


Sheesh, George, we've taken over the ENTIRE industry and I missed the gay newsletter that informed us. Hey, where IS my gay newsletter keeping me up on these things?


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## John Daulton (Feb 28, 2012)

I think a disclaimer would look like an apology. 

Character traits, whether it be that they are gay, tall, short, have green eyes, big feet, or bat wings... whatever, is that any given feature or aspect of a character should only be included if it is necessary for the story. If it occurs and occupies a natural place in the essential structure of the story, then there is no reason to announce it in a disclaimer. The need to disclose that facet of the character will be obvious to readers. If it is inserted into a story because "it would be cool to do that" or because it seems edgy or a way to curry favor or attention or to preach, give a nod to, etc., then that trait will jump out at a reader by the nature of its artificiality.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Hugh Howey said:


> Should books come with such disclaimers? I find the suggestion reprehensible. And yet, that's what at least one reader suggests.
> 
> Of course, I'm not going to change a thing. I'm just interested in your opinion, as writers. Should our synopses include something about our protag's sexual orientation?
> 
> ...


The only thing that should be questioned is the person who made that idiotic and homophobic-tinged suggestion.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> If you're not offending someone, you're not doing your job.


While I wholeheartedly agree with this in a general sense, in this specific instance you _do_ realize you could be seen as pretty much enabling Krista here, right?

"Dammit, Krista, stop offending people!"
"But Betsy, look, JR told me to!"


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> If you're not offending someone, you're not doing your job.
> 
> By the way, all those people who say there is a "gay agenda". d*mn right and a scary one at that. Civil rights. The right to hold a job without fear of being fired. The right NOT to be beaten and left in a field to die. (Yeah, and buy milk  )
> 
> ...


Surely not. Wasn't our agenda World Domination and Universal Gayfication of Society?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

George Berger said:


> While I wholeheartedly agree with this in a general sense, in this specific instance you _do_ realize you could be seen as pretty much enabling Krista here, right?
> 
> "Dammit, Krista, stop offending people!"
> "But Betsy, look, JR told me to!"


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## Rachel Schurig (Apr 9, 2011)

smreine said:


> Ouch. The number of responses I want to make to this overloaded my brain and caused a misfire.


I am shocked by your blatant milk buying agenda pushing, smreine. Shocked, I say! how dare you threaten my family's desire to only drink soy??


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Surely not. Wasn't our agenda World Domination and Universal Gayfication of Society?


See! I told you I wasn't getting the Gay Newsletter. 

I didn't know our agenda was Gayfication. Remind me to run right out and spread some gay cooties.



Krista D. Ball said:


>


Hah. I'll delete the post and then Betsy will never know!


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

Rachel Schurig said:


> I am shocked by your blatant milk buying agenda pushing, smreine. Shocked, I say! how dare you threaten my family's desire to only drink soy??


Hey hey hey, whoa there now. I didn't say what TYPE of milk is on the agenda. We're an _almond_-milk drinking household, thankyouverymuch!


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Surely not. Wasn't our agenda World Domination and Universal Gayfication of Society?


And glitter, I think. I'm sure glitter was involved somewhere.

_--George, proud supporter of fabulous lacto-fascism since nineteen-mumbly-mumble..._


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JRTomlin said:


> Edit: The gay proselytizing remark exposes the writer's fear that if you read about a gay person it will give you gay cooties and turn you gay.


And I think it spreads over the Internet, too.... 

And Krista, Harvest Moon should have been longer... 

Betsy
...at the library as the power went out last night....


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

George Berger said:


> And glitter, I think. I'm sure glitter was involved somewhere.
> 
> _--George, proud supporter of fabulous lacto-fascism since nineteen-mumbly-mumble..._


Only if there is a guy involved. I assure you that as a lesbian it is against my religion to do glitter! 



genevieveaclark said:


> Oh, bless you. Yes. I think that's what he means.
> 
> I know I've said this before, but if lesbianism were really contagious, I would just walk around all day coughing on hot women. "Sorry about that! How rude of me. What's your phone number?"
> 
> ...


----------



## GWakeling (Mar 23, 2012)

I know this thread does have a serious note, but it IS making me chuckle


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I know I've said this before, but if lesbianism were really contagious, I would just walk around all day coughing on hot women. "Sorry about that! How rude of me. What's your phone number?"
> 
> Right?
> 
> Laydeeeez.


Hey now, I've met some lesbians where this technique actually seems to work. True story. In the last fifteen years, my best friend has dated all "straight" women. However, I keep telling her this is why she hasn't found the "one".


----------



## Rachel Schurig (Apr 9, 2011)

smreine said:


> Hey hey hey, whoa there now. I didn't say what TYPE of milk is on the agenda. We're an _almond_-milk drinking household, thankyouverymuch!


Almond milk is not the same as soy milk. Almond milk threatens the very foundation on which soy milk is based.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> And Krista, Harvest Moon should have been longer...


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I know I've said this before, but if lesbianism were really contagious, I would just walk around all day coughing on hot women. "Sorry about that! How rude of me. What's your phone number?"
> 
> Right?
> 
> Laydeeeez.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Only if there is a guy involved. I assure you that as a lesbian it is against my religion to do glitter!


Either way, folks need to practice safe glitter. Not for nothing has it been described as "the herpes of craft supplies".


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Rachel Schurig said:


> Almond milk is not the same as soy milk. Almond milk threatens the very foundation on which soy milk is based.


Down with soy milk! Almond milk rules!


----------



## Rachel Schurig (Apr 9, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Oh, bless you. Yes. I think that's what he means.
> 
> I know I've said this before, but if lesbianism were really contagious, I would just walk around all day coughing on hot women. "Sorry about that! How rude of me. What's your phone number?"
> 
> ...


You win this thread.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

George Berger said:


> Either way, folks need to practice safe glitter. Not for nothing has it been described as "the herpes of craft supplies".


George, if only I had your address. I'm dying to send you a glitter bomb package.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> Down with soy milk! Almond milk rules!


Whole milk is apparently the beverage of the people. I'm not sure where the masses stand on skim, chocolate, or two-percent, but I see a lot of angry people in the streets calling for an end to 1%...



Deanna Chase said:


> George, if only I had your address. I'm dying to send you a glitter bomb package.


I'm pretty sure you're only allowed to send glitter bombs to politicians...


----------



## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

John Daulton said:


> I think a disclaimer would look like an apology.
> 
> Character traits, whether it be that they are gay, tall, short, have green eyes, big feet, or bat wings... whatever, is that any given feature or aspect of a character should only be included if it is necessary for the story. If it occurs and occupies a natural place in the essential structure of the story, then there is no reason to announce it in a disclaimer. The need to disclose that facet of the character will be obvious to readers. If it is inserted into a story because "it would be cool to do that" or because it seems edgy or a way to curry favor or attention or to preach, give a nod to, etc., then that trait will jump out at a reader by the nature of its artificiality.


That could be fun.

Make a disclaimer full of non-sequiturs. "DISCLAIMER: Protagonist is tall with a ginger friend, a neighbor who does something in telecommunications and a sister who hates Hello Kitty."


----------



## Catana (Mar 27, 2012)

DDark said:


> Here's a snippet of a "fan email" i received. I should preface by saying there is no gay relationship in my book. I simply wrote a gay sub character who has small roles and is funny, real, and remarkable.
> 
> 
> Love it.
> ...


Umm. Yeah. So if the characters are all heterosexual, that's not an agenda, but if there is one gay character, that is an agenda, even if he's not in a relationship. Gotta love logic like that.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

George Berger said:


> Either way, folks need to practice safe glitter. Not for nothing has it been described as "the herpes of craft supplies".


That's why lesbians avoid glitter. Those full-body condoms are murder.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> That's why lesbians avoid glitter. Those full-body condoms are murder.


not all lesbians avoid glitter. but we do practice it in private....

My initial response to "My protagonist is gay"? "CONGRATULATIONS!"


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

telracs said:


> not all lesbians avoid glitter. but we do practice it in private....
> 
> My initial response to "My protagonist is gay"? "CONGRATULATIONS!"


Well, I should HOPE you keep that stuff in private. I don't want all that glitter-use agenda in my face!


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> Well, I should HOPE you keep that stuff in private. I don't want all that glitter-use agenda in my face!


*insert evil laugh here*


----------



## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

George Berger said:


> _--George, who totally ships Rizzoli x Isles, but doesn't everyone, really?_


George, I <3 you for this. And I don't know about everyone, but I certainly do.


----------



## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

I did rewrite one of the stories in my collection to a straight relationship (plus lowered age) but the original story is still available on my website. I decided on this because I wanted to keep the collection light (as much as possible).

My other books are all gay fiction and the only disclaimers I will put on them are trigger disclaimers. One of the stories deals with depression and other dark subjects and since I know people who have dealt with these subjects I also know that for some of them they would like some advance warning about it.
The rest of it people should be able to make out in the blurb, it is quite obvious that both the MC and the one he likes are both male.

What I do find offensive are the books about girls going through sex changes because the guy they love is gay or about some straight couple where one of the friends is gay so it ends up in the gay section. Books that pretend to be gay books when they are simply placed there to cash in on people who are interested in gay fiction.

I hate that more than any "warning" people can put on books.


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I know I've said this before, but if lesbianism were really contagious, I would just walk around all day coughing on hot women. "Sorry about that! How rude of me. What's your phone number?"
> 
> Right?
> 
> Laydeeeez.


 

Every woman I've ever been involved with has been totally straight, I assure you. Which makes me pretty convinced it IS contagious... for the right lady. *eyebrow waggle* In all seriousness, I think it's because most people have fairly fluid sexuality, but there's less of a social stigma associated with being a lesbian than being gay. No big if you have two ladies bumping uglies, but men? Heavens to Betsy D), we can't have that.



Deanna Chase said:


> Down with soy milk! Almond milk rules!


Down with soy milk and phytoestrogens! Up with the almond milk agenda!


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> That could be fun.
> 
> Make a disclaimer full of non-sequiturs. "DISCLAIMER: Protagonist is tall with a ginger friend, a neighbor who does something in telecommunications and a sister who hates Hello Kitty."


Disclaimer, hell.

_"Rachel - who owns several pairs of comfortable shoes - has no trouble believing in spirits. It's the living she has a tough time accepting, and vice versa.

The man she's in love with? Taken, and a wonderful cook. The job at the coffee shop she loved? Gone. Her neighbours? They're taping religious tracts to her door. Then a rebellious teenage Wiccan with rainbow-colored shoelaces accidentally summons the area's tall, buff, ancestral Viking spirits -- who promptly bring their thousand-year dance contest to the remote Newfoundland fishing village. 
If Rachel's going to have any hope of sending the spirits to their peace, she'll have to stop drooling over unattainable men and trust her 93-year-old spinster neighbour to help her stand against the spirits before their supernatural disco engulfs them all."_


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

George Berger said:


> Disclaimer, hell.
> 
> _"Rachel - who owns several pairs of comfortable shoes - has no trouble believing in spirits. It's the living she has a tough time accepting, and vice versa.
> 
> ...


Not only would I read that book, I would absolutely attend a supernatural Viking disco. Where do I show up with the glitter?


----------



## Sarah Ettritch (Jan 5, 2012)

All my books have at least one lesbian main character. Not all of them are in the lesbian fiction category. I've yet to receive an email from anyone complaining about it. In fact, some of my best reviews have come from straight folks. 

One of my favourite reviews (a 3 star on Goodreads) came from someone who'd won my book The Salbine Sisters in a giveaway. She'd apparently entered without reading the description and had a problem with the lesbian characters. But she said in her review (paraphrasing), "If you can get past the lesbian relationship, you'll enjoy this book," which I thought was a great review from someone who was clearly uncomfortable with the lesbian content (which is all clean, BTW. My books don't contain explicit sexual content).

No matter what you write and what's included in your story, someone won't like it. That's just the way it goes.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

You know, I can't wait until those pushing the "gay agenda" get their just-like-us message so fully integrated into the world of entertainment that there are simply no books left for bigots to read, no movies or TV shows left for bigots to watch, and no music left for bigots to listen to. Then a small, sad, insular world of bigot-friendly entertainment can spring up, and all those artists can put a "not appropriate for the tolerant" warning label on their work. They can start a wee forum and argue among themselves about who "us" is and who might or might not be granted honorary "_sort of_ like us" status, so long as they display appropriately deferential behavior.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I think it's sad in a way that we even need to joke about having disclaimers.  Some of my stories feature G/L/B characters (and one or two potential plots feature trans characters too!)  This is because sexuality is part of what makes up a character.  I don't pick the sexuality of my characters.  It probably sounds a little crazy, but they pick their own sexuality, and I discover it in the process of writing them.  

I'm not going to censor someone's sexuality out of a story.  I'm also not inclined to even bother mentioning it in the blurb unless it's relevant to the category the story goes under (such as a m/m or f/f romance.)


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

There's a lesbian protagonist in one of my books. She helped earn me a recent one-star review for my ham-handedness of 19th century sexuality. I think I'll try to blame it on my female beta readers.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Jeff said:


> There's a lesbian protagonist in one of my books. She helped earn me a recent one-star review for my ham-handedness of 19th century sexuality. I think I'll try to blame it on my female beta readers.


you're welcome.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

WARNING: This book contains characters who emulate real people. Just wanted to warn you. If you are offended by any group of real people, you might want to stick with books with cardboard characters.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

telracs said:


> not all lesbians avoid glitter. but we do practice it in private....
> My initial response to "My protagonist is gay"? "CONGRATULATIONS!"


*setting off fireworks*

Here here!

(And about the glitter: one of my dear beloved daughters is a lesbian, and I can assure you she is _very_ glittery.)


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

smreine said:


> Not only would I read that book, I would absolutely attend a supernatural Viking disco.


That might actually be a theme night at one of the nightclubs in Minneapolis...

And you should ask Krista nicely to (re)write that story for you. I'm sure we're not the only people who'd love to read it. 

_--George, and five burly men wearing nothing but fur cloaks were standing on the dock at three in the morning, singing "So Many Men, So Little Time" in surprisingly good harmony, while Constable Martin cried quietly on the edge of the fountain, someone named Ragnar at his side, alternately trying to console him and pick him up with bad Star Trek jokes..._


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

telracs said:


> you're welcome.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Gutman said:


> *setting off fireworks*
> 
> Here here!
> 
> (And about the glitter: one of my dear beloved daughters is a lesbian, and I can assure you she is _very_ glittery.)


It was a joke, Gutman. And as an "official" lesbian, I can make lesbian jokes. It's allowed.

As we all know only lipstick lesbians are allowed to use glitter.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

George Berger said:


> That might actually be a theme night at one of the nightclubs in Minneapolis...
> 
> And you should ask Krista nicely to (re)write that story for you. I'm sure we're not the only people who'd love to read it.
> 
> _--George, and five burly men wearing nothing but fur cloaks were standing on the dock at three in the morning, singing "So Many Men, So Little Time" in surprisingly good harmony, while Constable Martin cried quietly on the edge of the fountain, someone named Ragnar at his side, alternately trying to console him and pick him up with bad Star Trek jokes..._


I so, SO want to read that story!


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> It was a joke, Gutman. And as an "official" lesbian, I can make lesbian jokes. It's allowed.
> 
> As we all know only lipstick lesbians are allowed to use glitter.


Yes, I know it was a joke. And I have been given an _Un-Official But Honorary Lesbian Card_, so I'm permitted to joke back.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Victorine said:


> WARNING: This book contains characters who emulate real people. Just wanted to warn you. If you are offended by any group of real people, you might want to stick with books with cardboard characters.


LOVE IT!


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Gutman said:


> Yes, I know it was a joke. And I have been given an _Un-Official But Honorary Lesbian Card_, so I'm permitted to joke back.


I dunno. Those 'Un-official but honorary lesbian cards' are supposed be handed out only on special occasions. I'll have to make sure that fits into the official Gay Agenda.


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> I dunno. Those 'Un-official but honorary lesbian cards' are supposed be handed out only on special occasions. I'll have to make sure that fits into the official Gay Agenda.


*laughs and snorts coffee through nose*

I assure you my card is on file at the Registry.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> I dunno. Those 'Un-official but honorary lesbian cards' are supposed be handed out only on special occasions. I'll have to make sure that fits into the official Gay Agenda.


Hey, there was a big parade in NY last week. I think a lot of those cards got handed out.


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Gutman said:


> *laughs and snorts coffee through nose*
> 
> I assure you my card is on file at the Registry.


The former Prime Minister of Italy, Silvio Berluscony, seems to have a card like that. When confronted with the fact that psychologists think every man has a feminine side, he answered: "I know. My feminine side is a lesbian."


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

George Berger said:


> Disclaimer, hell.
> 
> _"Rachel - who owns several pairs of comfortable shoes - has no trouble believing in spirits. It's the living she has a tough time accepting, and vice versa.
> 
> ...


*blink*

HEY THAT'S MY BOOK!     I was reading your post and did a double take.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

George Berger said:


> That might actually be a theme night at one of the nightclubs in Minneapolis...
> 
> And you should ask Krista nicely to (re)write that story for you. I'm sure we're not the only people who'd love to read it.
> 
> _--George, and five burly men wearing nothing but fur cloaks were standing on the dock at three in the morning, singing "So Many Men, So Little Time" in surprisingly good harmony, while Constable Martin cried quietly on the edge of the fountain, someone named Ragnar at his side, alternately trying to console him and pick him up with bad Star Trek jokes..._


I was thinking of doing a dream sequence short story. I might steal that idea


----------



## Romi (Apr 4, 2011)

jmkwriter said:


> And on the other hand....
> 
> I'm gonna say yes, you should include a disclaimer. This is purely from a personal point of view, but I believe that there is a massive push in the entertainment industry to prove that homosexuals are "just like us." I've gotten more than a little burned out by having it shoved in my face every day. I would like to know what I'm getting into before opening the book.


Oh BOO to you. I could say a lot more, but it's not worth my time to shove it in your face.


----------



## Romi (Apr 4, 2011)

George Berger said:


> Remember that cancelled TV show "Better Off Ted"? The character Veronica - who was purely heterosexual and slept with the titular, male, character - was played by a ridiculously gorgeous lesbian actress. I miss that show. It was made of win. Win, and sarcasm. Okay, mostly sarcasm. And a Dalek, in one episode. But I still loved it. It made me want to work in an office for a while again, just so I could play Linda Bagel.
> 
> Oh, and according to about 98% of the fanfiction involving her, Erin Esurance is a lesbian. Which I think makes her about as gay as ADA Sutherland was on Law and Order. Oh, and there's a bisexual woman on Skins in the UK, and what's-her-face from Lost Girl is bi, too. And you have to kind of wonder about Marlene on The Penguins of Madagascar, right?
> 
> ...


I LOVED the show "Better Off Ted" and I love Portia De Rossi. She also played a remarkably straight character in "Arrested Development" which I loved, except it was less a sarcastic character and more a character of "straight loose morals"  .

PS: I wish "Better Off Ted" would come back; my favourite moments were all those mishaps in the R&D dept


----------



## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

jmkwriter said:


> I'm gonna say yes, you should include a disclaimer. This is purely from a personal point of view, but I believe that there is a massive push in the entertainment industry to prove that homosexuals are "just like us." I've gotten more than a little burned out by having it shoved in my face every day. I would like to know what I'm getting into before opening the book.


If a book has religious characters, should there be a warning for them, too? Wiccans? Pagans? Buddhists? Or how about other minorities? Women, for example? I hear they have an equality agenda that they like to shove in people's faces as well, so there should be a disclaimer for them, for sure.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> *blink*
> 
> HEY THAT'S MY BOOK!     I was reading your post and did a double take.


It seemed just ludicrous to work, somehow. And I only had to change around a dozen words of your blurb. 

_"Disco is dead," Mrs. Saunders said, eyes narrowed, "and we're going to have to make sure it stays that way, missy."_


----------



## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> I dunno. Those 'Un-official but honorary lesbian cards' are supposed be handed out only on special occasions. I'll have to make sure that fits into the official Gay Agenda.


See? That's the difference in our halves of the community. We give out Honorary Gay Guy cards to anyone who wants one and can keep up with the witty repartee. Oh and there are extra bonus points for being saucy ...


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> See? That's the difference in our halves of the community. We give out Honorary Gay Man cards to anyone who wants one and can keep up with the witty repartee. Oh and there are extra bonus points for being saucy ...


yeah, and they don't notice when i steal a few hundred and sprinkle them through the theater district.


----------



## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

telracs said:


> yeah, and they don't notice when i steal a few hundred and sprinkle them through the theater district.


Thay allow straights to work in the theater distirct now? What's next - interior design?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> Thay allow straights to work in the theater distirct now? What's next - interior design?


I, for one, welcome our The Gays overlords.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> Thay allow straights to work in the theater distirct now? What's next - interior design?


and hair dressing!


----------



## Griffin Hayes (Sep 20, 2011)

Hey Hugh, 

I say you write a novel with a gay character named after that same reviewer and also dedicate the book to him. Then send him a free, signed copy.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Griffin Hayes said:


> Hey Hugh,
> 
> I say you write a novel with a gay character named after that same reviewer and also dedicate the book to him. Then send him a free, signed copy.


I know you're joking, and I know Hugh would never do this, but for the sake of the children out there I will make the following public service announcement - DO NOT DO THIS.

As a woman, if I got an email from someone (especially a man) I'd reviewed in which they named a character after me to be spiteful, I would feel very uncomfortable. A professional disagreement was made personal. That would creep the dickens out of me.


----------



## Simon Whitmore (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm surprised you're even asking. It's more than acceptable today - who cares anyway? I'm straight, but all the gay men I've ever known are the funniest people I've ever met and, if you're writing humour, a gay character is sometimes perfect!


----------



## Martin Perry (Aug 2, 2011)

You know, this discussion is pretty one-sided on here (the right side), but I'm genuinely surprised by how well represented the other side is. That email? Wow!

Makes you wonder though! The ship captain in my current releases is gay, and it's a cross-species relationship. In terms of the setting, this isn't viewed as particularly exceptional, and isn't written about in those terms. Champion isn't the lead character, not by a long way, but he's featured and important to the story. Perhaps he has been putting people off?

Oh well. I can live without those sales.


----------



## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

I will say that I think it's pretty ballsy for someone to openly admit their bigotry like that. I think a lot of people - especially in these more enlightened times - would tend to hide their prejudice and just say they hated the book for any number of the usual reasons.

That said, in answer to the original question - no, absolutely not. What else? WARNING: My protagonist is black? Jewish? Not like you?

Kudos, to you, though, Hugh, for this: "For me, the great thing about the book in question is that homosexuality isn't the point of the story. It's not the driving force behind the character or their great hurdle to overcome. It's just a fact."

Just as it should be.


----------



## MindAttic (Aug 14, 2011)

I have the perfect disclaimer:

WARNING: The characters in this story are human. Any offense to extraterrestrials and robots is unintended.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Simon Whitmore said:


> I'm surprised you're even asking. It's more than acceptable today - who cares anyway? I'm straight, but all the gay men I've ever known are the funniest people I've ever met and, if you're writing humour, a gay character is sometimes perfect!


*sigh*

*bites tongue til it bleeds, spits out the blood and bites it some more*

I will not say it. I will NOT say it.

Edit: Where is Betsy and her taser when I need her to keep me in line?


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Griffin Hayes said:


> Hey Hugh,
> 
> I say you write a novel with a gay character named after that same reviewer and also dedicate the book to him. Then send him a free, signed copy.


As Krista said, this is a horrible idea.

I'll get right on it!!!


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> *sigh*
> 
> *bites tongue til it bleeds, spits out the blood and bites it some more*
> 
> ...


come here little girl.... i have chocolate. it's better than biting your tongue. or i have cupcakes....


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

telracs said:


> come here little girl.... i have chocolate. it's better than biting your tongue. or i have cupcakes....


Gluten-free choccolate cupcakes (with glitter). I can go for that!


----------



## JacksonJones (Feb 20, 2012)

Well, shucks. This conversation seems remarkably one-sided. I don't know about agendas. Are bigots just people who disagree with someone else's point of view? So if that first someone else's point of view doesn't line up with the second person's point of view, do they both get to call the other person a bigot?

Whatever it is, I suppose the plain old reality is that a writer will lose a chunk of the market if they do this or that. You're gonna lose somebody some way. So if the OPer is gonna exercise his right to include gay characters, some readers out there will exercise their rights not to read the book. Doesn't seem like a big deal. Sounds like market splintering to me.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

JacksonJones said:


> Well, shucks. This conversation seems remarkably one-sided. I don't know about agendas. Are bigots just people who disagree with someone else's point of view? So if that first someone else's point of view doesn't line up with the second person's point of view, do they both get to call the other person a bigot?
> 
> Whatever it is, I suppose the plain old reality is that a writer will lose a chunk of the market if they do this or that. You're gonna lose somebody some way. So if the OPer is gonna exercise his right to include gay characters, some readers out there will exercise their rights not to read the book. Doesn't seem like a big deal. Sounds like market splintering to me.


Yep, hating a segment of the population and wanting to deny their very existance isn't bigotry. Silly me.

We're obviously just a bunch of meanie-heads picking on that poor non-bigot who would prefer that I burn and hell and never darken their books again.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> Gluten-free choccolate cupcakes (with glitter). I can go for that!


well, the glittery ones are vanilla, but it's your virtual world, so they can be chocolate.


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> You know, I can't wait until those pushing the "gay agenda" get their just-like-us message so fully integrated into the world of entertainment that there are simply no books left for bigots to read, no movies or TV shows left for bigots to watch, and no music left for bigots to listen to.


There are definitely agendas at work, but who do they benefit?

I know that if pornography becomes more normalized, men like myself will benefit. Indeed, I have benefited greatly from the normalization of pornography and promiscuity!

Does it harm anyone? If it did harm people, would the people decrying the normalization of sex on camera be bigoted?

I love the fact that in modern times, there are no universal rights or wrongs, merely opinions.


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## LilianaHart (Jun 20, 2011)

My answer to this is an emphatic NO. We should all be able to write what we want to without having to put warning labels on our content. It's ridiculous. And the fact that people think they're entitled to something like that drives me crazy. Why should you have to warn anyone that your main character is gay? I don't have to warn readers that my MC is heterosexual. If your story is in the right category then that's all you need to worry about as far as appeasing readers. What happens inside the pages is going to affect people different ways. They may not like your subject matter, or your MC, or the way you write in 3rd when they prefer 1st etc. etc. etc. But whatever. You can't please everyone.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

LilianaHart said:


> My answer to this is an emphatic NO. We should all be able to write what we want to without having to put warning labels on our content. It's ridiculous. And the fact that people think they're entitled to something like that drives me crazy. Why should you have to warn anyone that your main character is gay? I don't have to warn readers that my MC is heterosexual. If your story is in the right category then that's all you need to worry about as far as appeasing readers. What happens inside the pages is going to affect people different ways. They may not like your subject matter, or your MC, or the way you write in 3rd when they prefer 1st etc. etc. etc. But whatever. You can't please everyone.


But what is the "right" category. Because I certainly object to all novels which happen to have a gay protag being banished to a gay ghetto.


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## LilianaHart (Jun 20, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> But what is the "right" category. Because I certainly object to all novels which happen to have a gay protag being banished to a gay ghetto.


Oh, me too. That's not what I meant. I'm talking about genre. If you write a thriller with a gay MC it should go in the thriller category.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

LilianaHart said:


> Oh, me too. That's not what I meant. I'm talking about genre. If you write a thriller with a gay MC it should go in the thriller category.


Ok, we agree. I honestly wasn't sure what you meant.

Unfortunately, a lot of novels that have a gay protag are shoved into the "gay ghetto". I have a running argument with Powell's Books in Portland about that. If being gay is the subject of the book I have at least less objection, but if the protag is gay without that being the theme, I have a big problem with it.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

LilianaHart said:


> My answer to this is an emphatic NO. We should all be able to write what we want to without having to put warning labels on our content. It's ridiculous. And the fact that people think they're entitled to something like that drives me crazy. Why should you have to warn anyone that your main character is gay? I don't have to warn readers that my MC is heterosexual. If your story is in the right category then that's all you need to worry about as far as appeasing readers. What happens inside the pages is going to affect people different ways. They may not like your subject matter, or your MC, or the way you write in 3rd when they prefer 1st etc. etc. etc. But whatever. You can't please everyone.


I think we forget sometimes that we're privileged as indies. We _can_ indeed write what we want to write. In traditional publishing a lot of our novels wouldn't have a chance.
I honestly thought they were right and that a Pseudo-Historical Fantasy without talking dragons or wizards, but with gay army commanders wouldn't have all that much appeal. I estimated the worldwide demand on between 50 and 100 copies. They were wrong and I was wrong.

E.T.A.:

Nevertheless, they're still classified as Gay Novels, not as Historical Fantasy.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'll admit it: I would download and watch.
> 
> For research, of course.
> 
> Book marketing research.


Gotta love marketing research.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Gotta love marketing research.


The single most popular Google search that hits my web site is 'lesbian movie' because my Horror Movie novel is about a dysfunctional film crew making a low-budget lesbian vampire movie.

In honour of this thread I think I'm going to make the protagonist of my new short story a lesbian. Now I just have to explain to my girlfriend that I'll have to do some more research on the subject...


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

If people can't handle reading about LGBTIQA+ characters, then I'll happily not waste their time, and queer issues are never even at the forefront of any of my stories to date, the character's orientations are just facts of life. The biggest time sex is an issue is when an ace gets into her first relationship, but even that's more to do with her phobia of sex, and issues surrounding it, than just the delicacy required in a sexual/asexual relationship.

I'd rather warn for things that have the potential to trigger people - torture, rape, murder, child abuse, etc.


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## Pearson Moore (Mar 14, 2011)

My first thought was that a character's sexual orientation should not have any bearing on the acceptability of the book to a broad audience.  I think this will be generally true, but I can envision a situation in which you may wish to warn readers.  If the plot or character arc requires description of sexual activity such a description may turn off straight readers.  You might include this fact in the blurb, not necessarily as a formal warning, but just to let readers know.  If the extent of sexual description is that Bob is dating Ralph and they go out for a romantic candlelit dinner and kiss passionately, well I don't think you need any warning, formal or otherwise.  But if I'm promised a whodunit, and in Chapter Three I find a detailed, seven-page description of a gay encounter, I'm probably going to throw the book down and never pick it up again.  I insist on gay rights, I left my church over the issue and joined a church that supports gay rights.  I suspect there are many like me who support gay rights but do not want to see or view or read written descriptions of homosexual acts.  That's just about the only scenario I can imagine in which a "warning" might help the author sell more books (and receive fewer one-star reviews!) and help potential readers make a decision about purchasing the book.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

sicklove said:


> I have to admit, if in Lord of the Rings Frodo had plowed Sam in the *ss under a magical elven tree, it would have probably disturbed my 12 year old mind.


And that is why we have fanfiction.


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## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

All in all, I simply hope that this thread wasn't an excuse to generate controversy = promotion. I'm beginning to feel that way.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong.


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

Hugh

I just finished "Half Way Home" (chewed it up, right after Wool 5) and I thought it was terrific. I loved your protagonist and his arc, being a newborn in a world where his orientation had no "meaning" that he could understand. I don't think anyone should label their work as "gay" unless specifically writing for that audience, or related issues specifically. People are people, but that's just me.

As for those that might have a problem with that; getting to page twenty (or location 435) and thinking "Oh god! there's one of _them_ in this book!" Well...I think you made your outlook pretty clear in the "Half Way Home" acknowledgements and I imagine you would prefer NOT having those types in your readership.

Dave


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I've been on the proud receiving end of one-star reviews triggered by gay-ness of some of my characters.

Says more about the reviewer than about me, doesn't it?


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> I've been on the proud receiving end of one-star reviews triggered by gay-ness of some of my characters.
> 
> Says more about the reviewer than about me, doesn't it?


Yep.

You could also have your protagonist choose the non-white love interest and see how people feel about that, though with my particular situation, I could blame myself for not having the character be more dynamic, and that it's a fault of the writing. Yeah, we'll say it's that and not about the race issue.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

dalya said:


> You could also have your protagonist choose the non-white love interest and see how people feel about that, though with my particular situation, I could blame myself for not having the character be more dynamic, and that it's a fault of the writing. Yeah, we'll say it's that and not about the race issue.


My solution to that is to write the Lacuna series where almost nobody is Caucasian.


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## thedragonchild "L&#039;Poni Baldwin" (Jun 21, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> Should books come with such disclaimers? I find the suggestion reprehensible. And yet, that's what at least one reader suggests.
> 
> Of course, I'm not going to change a thing. I'm just interested in your opinion, as writers. Should our synopses include something about our protag's sexual orientation?
> 
> ...


Why should there be warnings? That makes no sense and it's trivial. Who cares if the protagonist or antagonist is gay or interracial or whatever-it-be.

On an unrelated note....: Hiya, Mr. Howey, didn't know you were a frequenter of Kindleboards.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

thedragonchild "Ciel Phantomhive" said:


> On an unrelated note....: Hiya, Mr. Howey, didn't know you were a frequenter of Kindleboards.


He's been here for ages. Just look at that star count!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> If 6 - 8 percent of the population is gay, shouldn't 6 - 8 percent of our characters be? Protagonists included?
> 
> Here's looking forward to the day when this isn't even an issue.


Quotas? Really?  LOL

Personally, I think there's enough writers out there, and enough readers out there, that for any type of well-written book one chooses to write, there's an audience for it.

Establishing "must-include" elements for all writers isn't something I'd endorse. I'd rather there be a vast array of writers, all writing about the stuff they enjoy writing about. Isn't that freedom part of what being indie is about?

Take the John Locke view: if you found a reader who didn't like some element of your book, all it means is that's one reader who's not part of your target audience... and there are plenty others who are. (In other words, it's that reader's issue, not yours.)

I write about the themes, topics and such that I feel I can pull off best. I wouldn't want to be expected to write about any character I didn't feel I could pull off in convincing fashion.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Jan Strnad said:


> Warning: My protagonist is gay. And black. And is a Republican. And...and...drives a foreign car. And he is going to sing the praises of that cheap beer you hate.


With that combination of character traits, Jan, you must be getting ready to script the next version of Ultimate Spider-Man. 

And as a side note, that combination would make for a pretty unique character. Write it!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> High Five!
> 
> (Didn't want to leave you hanging)


Shouldn't that be "Hugh Five!" ??


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hugh Howey on Yesterday at 01:09:00 PM]
If 6 - 8 percent of the population is gay said:


> Quotas? Really?  LOL
> 
> Personally, I think there's enough writers out there, and enough readers out there, that for any type of well-written book one chooses to write, there's an audience for it.
> 
> ...


I didn't read Hugh's comment to mean that quotas should be implemented or that people should construct their work so that 6-8 percent of the characters they write are gay; just that, if people felt free to write as they wanted, that it would happen naturally.

JRT--I wasn't able to keep my cattleprod charged with the power being out...glad it wasn't needed! Sounds like you need a splint for your tongue, however.

Betsy


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Fun and enjoyable thread, overall.

I agree that posting warnings due to content is usually unnecessary and ill-advised. It's like anti-marketing. "Want reasons not to buy my book? Here are a few..."

I think it's a big enough world for there to be novels of all sorts. We can't all read all of them, so we just look for the folks who like the same sorts of stories we write, and hope there's more than a couple-dozen of them! 

I will post this one observation, though:

A few of the same people who are shocked at the suggestion that writers whose stories contain gay characters label them as such, and are sounding off against such warnings... are the same folks who advise other writers, "if your book even mentions God a little bit, you MUST include a warning."

Seems a little double-minded to support warnings with one type of content, but not another.

And just to reiterate: I tend to think warnings of any type are anti-marketing and probably not advisable, even though I took the labeling advice on Most Likely, my only book to contain religious themes.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

No!  No warnings!  You'd never consider putting, as other's have said, "Warning: Protagonist is straight" ... to make any allowances for your character being gay would go against equality.  Let people read it ... if they chose to read it with a narrow mind, that's on them.


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## Nicole Ciacchella (May 21, 2012)

Warnings for anything other than explicit content?  Um, no, thanks.  Literature has historically sought to push boundaries, to make people take on mantles they wouldn't otherwise have expected.  I read several articles about a recent study that showed readers often will see through the eyes of the story's protagonist, and that this effect can change their behavior.  I couldn't find it doing a quick Google search, but I'll post a link here if I do manage to find it. 

My explicit goal in writing my new series was to try to make the characters as diverse as possible because I simply don't think there's enough diversity in literature nowadays, particularly when it comes to a genre like young adult.  Even when the protagonist is explicitly not white, the marketing departments of a lot of publishing companies still put a pretty white girl on the cover, and that frankly makes me queasy.  There's a popular YA series out right now that features a lesbian character as a tight friend of the main character, which I find encouraging.  The character even has a romantic relationship in the books, though it's very low-key and not nearly as sexually charged as the main character's heterosexual relationship.  My goal is to create characters first and to make them a mix of races and sexual preferences because, after all, we're all human beings.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Fun and enjoyable thread, overall.
> 
> I agree that posting warnings due to content is usually unnecessary and ill-advised. It's like anti-marketing. "Want reasons not to buy my book? Here are a few..."
> 
> ...


Apples and oranges and a strong mis-statement of what people object to.

If a novel PROSELYTIZES about Christianity, I will object. I don't want to read a novel that tries to convert me to your religion and even then I don't ask a warning just that the conversion theme be hinted at (and why would a writer want to hide the theme of their novel?).

That is a long stretch from there being anything wrong with mentioning God and in spite of your (mis) statement, I have YET to see anyone object to that. Every single one of my novels mentions God and several have people who are strongly religious. There is a religious scene in _A Kingdom's Cost_ that is heart rending, if I do say so myself. It is that because of the character's belief, not because I am trying to convert readers which would ruin the scene. There is no "warning" on them. No one has ever objected, including in dozens of reviews. No one I know of or have ever spoken to (even my rabidly atheistic son-in-law) objects to Christians or people of other religions in fiction or denies that they are human beings who should have human rights, unlike the haters of gays.

Now certain people who object to gay characters being in novels will claim that is somehow proselytizing as though you can somehow convert to gaydom. This is on the very face of it patently absurd. You aren't converted to a sexuality. What they really object to is gays being portrays as human beings.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

tkkenyon said:


> That said, it must be noted, my mother has obviously not been reading my trad-published books.
> 
> TK Kenyon


Always disconcerting to realize isn't it? 

You're right that no matter what we write, we'll lose a few people. That's life.

Edit: Craig brought up the subject of religion. Although I haven't had anyone post a review objecting, I did have a beta reader who thought I should have be critical of the Catholic beliefs I ascribe to my medieval characters rather than writing from a believer's point of view. It is certainly highly possible that at some point I lost some readers who object. If I have, they haven't posted reviews, but that's the chance we take unless we write so blandly that no one would want to read it anyway.


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## Rachel Baum (Jun 5, 2012)

Definitely voting for "No Warning". The point of reading a book is to figure things out along the way and to not have all of the information up front. If we start labeling books with warnings then its the good old slippery slope to hell and everything will require warnings and to be placed into neat categories. I personally want the world of books to remain dirty and messy and to be surprised when I read. I don't see any reason to set limits on a book by putting warnings on it.


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## John Daulton (Feb 28, 2012)

George Berger said:


> Disclaimer, hell.
> 
> _"Rachel - who owns several pairs of comfortable shoes - has no trouble believing in spirits. It's the living she has a tough time accepting, and vice versa.
> 
> ...


Too funny. Except that you could probably make a story out of that. See, you write so well even your bad stuff is good.


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

tkkenyon said:


> That said, also consider: when I was talking through the MC and background for the book with my mother, who is rounding the corner on 70 and reads a great deal, I was thinking about having the "frenemy" character in my book be a gay man because I didn't want the readers to become "shippers" and fixate on my female MC ending up in a relationship with this frenemy.


...it's funny that you think canon orientation will stop people from shipping character. >_>


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Rin said:


> ...it's funny that you think canon orientation will stop people from shipping character. >_>


Yeah, logic doesn't really apply to shipping. And when it does, it's insane troll logic.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Religion - I will say that if you put religious characters in your book - and especially if they have to rely on their religious beliefs or something happens in the book to question their beliefs and they decide in the end to hold fast to those beliefs - that many people will feel the book is trying to "convert" them.

I've read many reviews that state this, on books I would not consider trying to "convert" me.

So I guess I find that LABELING a book as religious, or having religious content, is fine with me. I don't feel like it's a warning, meant to offend those who are religious.

Just my thoughts on the matter.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

John Daulton said:


> Too funny. Except that you could probably make a story out of that. See, you write so well even your bad stuff is good.


*cough* That blurb from George is based on the actual blurb of my novella. So, really, it's my bad stuff not his


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Maybe we should all just replace our blurbs with warnings instead.
> 
> This books contains *gasp*
> Foul language
> ...


Heh. Yeah.

_This book contains depictions of LIFE. If you cannot handle that, shoo, goway. _


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

I've heard this said as well (readers want to know the orientation, etc., of MC). I had never really thought of it before. If a book sounds interesting, I read it. It is, after all, fiction... unless, of course, it's non-fiction.  
I have included just about everything from ****-phobes to Franco-phobes to incest in my series and I've never had anyone complain because I didn't list the sexual prefs, religious leanings, nationalities, genders, race, etc. of the characters in my series. So, I'd say don't worry about it unless you want to worry about it. 
Not that I want to seem wishy-washy, but then, yeah, maybe I do want to seem wishy-washy, but I don't know. 
But it's ultimately OK whatever you decide to do.
Unless it offends you to do it, then maybe you shouldn't.
In fact, I don't even know why I'm posting in this thread.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Well said, Brendan.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I would never, never, never, never, never include a gay character in any of my books.    They're just too merry and I'd never sell a book.

Edward C. Patterson
ala Miss Chatty


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Victorine said:


> Religion - I will say that if you put religious characters in your book - and especially if they have to rely on their religious beliefs or something happens in the book to question their beliefs and they decide in the end to hold fast to those beliefs - that many people will feel the book is trying to "convert" them.
> 
> I've read many reviews that state this, on books I would not consider trying to "convert" me.
> 
> ...


Boy do I get pounded on this for the polygamy stuff in The Righteous series. The books are too religious, the books are too anti-religious, the books are too Mormon, the books are too anti-Mormon, and my favorite: the characters practice the _wrong kind of religion_ and the author doesn't tell us why it's wrong.

People. It's set in a fundamentalist polygamist cult. That's not a secret from the description. If you think this subject will bother you, don't buy the books!


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Jeff said:


> Well said, Brendan.


Thank you, Jeff. I'm pleased you are pleased.


Edward C. Patterson said:


> I would never, never, never, never, never include a gay character in any of my books.   They're just too merry and I'd never sell a book.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson
> ala Miss Chatty


Of course, you wouldn't! And no one would accuse you of it either, Ed. 


MichaelWallace said:


> Boy do I get pounded on this for the polygamy stuff in The Righteous series. The books are too religious, the books are too anti-religious, the books are too Mormon, the books are too anti-Mormon, and my favorite: the characters practice the _wrong kind of religion_ and the author doesn't tell us why it's wrong.
> 
> People. It's set in a fundamentalist polygamist cult. That's not a secret from the description. If you think this subject will bother you, don't buy the books!


Good point, Michael! Even if you write it out in the blurb, you will still have dissenters. The very people who say things like "the wrong kind of religion" are the people who give us writers interesting characters to include in our stories.   And if you can get people to stop and think and say anything at all about your writing, you've failed no more than most and succeeded much better than many.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> Boy do I get pounded...


Hush now. Let's keep it PG-13!  LOL


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## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

You know what I think mostly? That people who negative rate a book for something either haven't read the blurb or only read what they wanted into it. The negative review is totally their own fault.

Although I've ran into books that were not labeled as having any religious inclings at all, the blurb didn't mention it in any way at all and although the blurb sounded nice the book was about a non-religious girl falling in love with a religious guy and converting to it because it was the "proper" thing to do. Yeah, I did give lower stars to that because from the blurb, title and cover I thought I was going to be reading a smoochy and sexy romance book.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> I would never, never, never, never, never include a gay character in any of my books.   They're just too merry and I'd never sell a book.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson
> ala Miss Chatty


*snort*


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

The protagonist in my newest book is bi-sexual . . . and yes, despite all of the joking, I do plan to put a disclaimer in my blurb. I put a disclaimer in all of my blurbs, so that people who are offended by certain things (things that a large amount of people tend to get offended by) will know immediately that my book is not for them, without even having to read the sample. Sexual orientation isn't the main focal point of the book, but unfortunately, a lot of people can't see past that.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

My protag befriends a lesbian, but he only finds out after he's befriended her, so I hope the homophobes forgive him. No warning.


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