# First person and present tense - a deal-breaker?



## Bookside Manner (Aug 24, 2013)

Thanks!


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

Kelly Cozy said:


> It's written in first person and present tense, as it's a mystery and I want the reader to learn things as the protagonist does. On another forum I saw people saying that they HATED present tense and/or first person and would never read a book with that type of narration.


I loathe present-tense - I've muscled through a few books in that style, but never enjoyed any of them.

With past-tense, you still learn things as quickly as the protagonist does, present-tense isn't necessarily any more immediate.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't care about first vs. third person. Even second person can be interesting, occasionally. But present-tense narration is a deal-breaker for me. I can't stand it.

But many (most?) readers obviously like present tense or don't care. It wouldn't be so hugely popular right now if most readers were like me.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2014)

Kelly Cozy said:


> Later this year I'll be revising and publishing a mystery MS. It's written in first person and present tense, as it's a mystery and I want the reader to learn things as the protagonist does. On another forum I saw people saying that they HATED present tense and/or first person and would never read a book with that type of narration.
> 
> I've never cared about what POV a novel uses as long as it follows the rules of that POV, but apparently other people feel strongly about this? Should I change my novel's tense/POV or just go with it and see what happens?


I always shake my head when I see questions like these at WC.

It's a shame that you would consider changing the POV because _some_ people don't like first person/present tense.

_Some_ people don't like mystery novels, either. So what?

Your job is to find your readers. Your job is not to try to please everyone.

If you do want to try to please everyone - good luck with that.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

I've written in both styles. I can't say I have a preference when reading. I enjoy writing in the first person, though.


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## tknite (Feb 18, 2014)

Oh, God...not this again.

I don't make tense decisions based on what some readers like and don't like. It doesn't matter what POV or tense you use, how many POV characters you have, or whatever...you will never get everyone to like your book. Ever. It's not going to happen.

Your decision about tense and POV should be based on what you feel best represents your story, what best gets the story across in the way you want. Whether that's past or present, first person or third, and whatever other elements are involved. What's the point of writing in a certain tense to _possibly, maybe_ please a few more readers if the resulting story isn't what you want it to be?


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## Ian Marks (Jan 22, 2012)

I _love _a first-person narrator in a mystery (John D. MacDonald's _Travis McGee_ books being wonderful examples), but I abhor the present tense.

It isn't necessary to employ the present tense in order for readers to learn things as the protagonist does... they will learn them as the protagonist recounts them, usually in chronological order, which is effectively the same thing.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Hmm. You certainly shouldn't try to force yourself to write in a way that would conflict with your goals for the book or your strengths as a writer. On the other hand, most of us are writing genre fiction with an eye to selling books, so trying to gauge readers' attitudes or predilections is not a crazy move. Trying to adapt to them _to some degree _isn't nutty, either. But if you try to adapt too much, you might end up not able to write, or writing something bad. As in most things, moderation is probably key.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Pretty sure that people don't really mind. Hunger Games certainly seems to have sold well.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

I've noticed that writers - much more than readers - tend to despise present tense. I think it's the most exciting tense though, when in first person. I'm not a fan of third-present, though. We all have our own preferences.

I think that you should keep the book in the tense and pov that you have already chosen if it was the right decision for the book.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Hmm. You certainly shouldn't try to force yourself to write in a way that would conflict with your goals for the book or your strengths as a writer. On the other hand, most of us are writing genre fiction with an eye to selling books, so trying to gauge readers' attitudes or predilections is not a crazy move. Trying to adapt to them _to some degree _isn't nutty, either. But if you try to adapt too much, you might end up not able to write, or writing something bad. As in most things, moderation is probably key.


I can think of some first person/present tense novels that are doing quite well. 

But they're not mystery novels. So whatever. I'm glad it's not an issue I have to deal with.


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

It’s always going to be about how good the writing is. James Joyce wrote Finnegan’s Wake in some bizarro, fever-dream language which requires buying a separate book that explains how to read it.  If you have an idea that you think works best in present tense…?  By all means, write it.  Can’t go wrong writing the thing you want to write.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

My crime novel is first person present. I thought I was being so clever as it features a screenwriter/detective and screenplays are almost always written in present tense.  Turns out it was difficult to sustain and not entirely natural to read.  We're used to folks telling us stories in the past tense.  One agent dismissed it saying he just didn't like present tense stories.  I won't write present tense again.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

I would look at other mystery novels that are comparable to yours to see what your audience seems to be buying. I will say that I have, in the past, read a whole lot of mystery novels and don't recalling seeing any written in first person present, but I don't know the current market at all.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Joliedupre said:


> I can think of some first person/present tense novels that are doing quite well.


Certainly.

Perhaps, in your rush to castigate Kelly for her question, you missed my first post in the thread.


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## m.a. petterson (Sep 11, 2013)

Write it the way you enjoy reading it.

If it's a good story you'll find your audience.


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

It seems to be super popular right now with YA and NA. Are there many mysteries that use it? For me it isn't a dealbreaker, just a bit jarring at first. I powered through the Hunger Games and am pretty used to it now because I love those genres as a reader.


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

My question for you is:  Does the tense you used serve the story the best?  If so, then changing it won't serve the story.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Certainly.
> 
> Perhaps, in your rush to castigate Kelly for her question, you missed my first post in the thread.


"Castigate"? LOL!

Okay.

I don't want bring Betsy into this. So I'll refrain.

(See Betsy, I can be a good girl.  )


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Just keep in mind though that some readers really don't know what all this present tense, first person stuff means. I still am not sure whats what, but I asked recently about a book I tried to read and it read so weird and all I could come up with saying was it was written bad. I didn't know why it read like that and found out from someone else that it is probably written in 1st person present tense. Now again, I had no idea really what that meant. I am not a writer so I am just not familiar with the terms of things like that. 

If I had slugged through that book and given it a review, which I still might do, I would have said it read weird and there was no connection with anything. That I hated it and it wasn't good.  Something like that. Mostly because I don't know what words to use in such a case. 

I do know at this point I can barely tolerate 1st person. I am still trying to figure out what present tense looks like and how I can tell before I buy something. These things might be like second nature to you writer guys, but to readers like me, I just have no clue what it is I am looking at. 
I think someone also told me that most of what I read is in 3rd person. Don't ask me what tense.  

All I am saying is no matter what you do, you will get reader feedback that will not be favorable, even if the reader doesn't really know the why.


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

Not a huge fan of present tense novels.  There are short stories and poems that I've enjoyed written in that tense.  It's a personal preference but I find the longer the work, the more tedious the "I" think becomes.  It's like it's trying to assume what I am actually thinking.  If I don't really connect with the character I find this grating.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Not a strange question at all, Kelly. Obviously you want to write what's best for your story, but it's perfectly reasonable to want to please as many of your readers as possible too. There are lots of readers for whom POV and tense isn't important. But personally, because I like to write with the market in mind, I'd look at other books popular with the subset of readers you're targeting and see if you can find a nice balance between your story's needs and the expectations of your audience. 

In other words, sample heavily among the bestsellers in your subgenre, so you can be aware of what's commonly done.  Then even if you decide to go a non-typical way, you'll be doing it intentionally and for a solid reason - not merely because you don't know what's usual.


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

Rin said:


> I loathe present-tense - I've muscled through a few books in that style, but never enjoyed any of them.
> 
> With past-tense, you still learn things as quickly as the protagonist does, present-tense isn't necessarily any more immediate. You can use either tense and still be in real time.


True about the immediacy. I don't know why that's such a common belief about needing First-Present for unfolding drama and action.

I say, use what fits the story. Present is more common in YA and NA. I stopped reading a thriller that was First Present. I couldn't get past chapter five. I have not read Mysteries in present.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Joliedupre said:


> "Castigate"? LOL!
> 
> Okay.
> 
> ...


Really? If you feel you were not being critical, I'm sure you can explain the _head-shaking _and the _it's a shame you'd even consider what you're considering_ portions of your post in a calm, rational way that won't provoke the dreaded prod. We are writers, after all. Our language is under our control.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

It's true that you should write your way and be true to your vision and serve the story and so forth. However, it's also true that norms are established by the preferences of a significant majority. If I were you, I would research my audience a little more to find out how common present tense is in mystery novels. If you don't mind publishing something that might not be very popular with your audience or that might net you a lot of negative reviews (and it's fine if you don't mind that), then don't worry about changing it. What matters is what your goal is and how likely your choice of tense is to further it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I haven't seen any castigating, though your first sentence, Jolie, could be read as disapproving of Kelly's question.

At any rate, let's move on.

Betsy


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm not a fan of first person/present tense, and don't care for first person/past tense either. However, that doesn't mean I won't give a book a shot. It totally depends on the book. For instance, The Help is first person/present, and it even changes pov between four characters, but I loved that book. After the first few pages, I was able to forget the pov and tense. 

What makes first person/present so grating for most people who dislike it is when the character is so self-aware that they tell us every little thing that they're doing.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Consider the age of your protagonist, and the age of your intended audience. The younger the person, the more likely they are to speak in present tense... and enjoy its usage in a story.


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## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

Doomed Muse said:


> Pretty sure that people don't really mind. Hunger Games certainly seems to have sold well.


I don't have time to do a detailed search, but a quickie showed a significant drop-off in sales from the first book to the third. I think first person served the first book wonderfully, but Katniss spent so much time hospitalized or away from the action in the third book it really hurt the story.

So yes, do what serves your story best, but consider if the tense will serve your story for its entirety.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Present tense is a deal-breaker for me. I get no sense of immediacy from it, but rather am so distracted that the story gets lost and I spend time mentally putting every single thing in past tense.

But, as others have said -- including me! -- do what you feel is best for the story. Always.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Kelly Cozy said:


> Looking at other books in the genre is excellent advice. I didn't think to do this before as it never occurred to me that the tense or POV could be a deal-breaker for some readers. (I'm fine with any tense and with all POVs except second person, and the beta readers had no complaints.) I'll probably end up going with past tense, which will force me to do a more thorough edit/revise anyway. Thanks!


This leads me to a very serious question as a reader.
How can you write in a genre you have not read? Or maybe this is why so many books are crap. 
I get asking about tenses, grammar and maybe even pointing out what you think is wrong with other books but not to have studied your chosen genre just boggles my mind.
Ok I will leave you to your writing now.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

I have a very difficult time with first person books, especially first person present.  But I know millions of people love it, or at least don't mind it, so if you think it works for your story, then you should absolutely do it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Kelly Cozy said:


> My mistake for posting quickly so as to avoid detection by the boss. I've read quite a number of books in the genre. I didn't make note of what tense or POV they were in as long as it worked for the book. I don't have any particular feelings about different tenses or POVs, so that's not something I recall off the top of my head.


I don't remember the tense or POV of books I've read either....I have to go back and check when one of these discussions comes up. It was news to me that The Help was first person. 

Betsy


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## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm writing a novel in first person right now. It's a futuristic detective story with a narrator who uses parody "hard-boiled dick" patter which I think works better in first person. He also has a chip implanted in his brain and they don't always get along. It wants to take over and drag the discourse up to the college level from time to time but he successfully resists -- most of the time.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

I love love love love love love love first person.  Do it! 

I don't have a preference for tenses

Also, have you noticed that the majority of the people that complain about first person are authors, not readers? Go figure.


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## Free Range Editor (Apr 2, 2014)

As a reader I've always found it kind of weird to read a first person, present tense novel.  How can you be writing this or talking to me while at the same time crashing through the woods, fighting off aliens, or you know, engaging in intimate acts?

Just my two cents.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Rich Amooi said:


> Also, have you noticed that the majority of the people that complain about first person are authors, not readers? Go figure.


Exactly. That doesn't mean writing in present tense is always a good idea, because there are certain genres where that probably won't fly because of the age/demographics of it's readership. Many writers are set in their ways, and they chose a certain style to write in because it suits their voice. Everything else can be odd to them.

I guarantee that the majority of readers don't have strong enough preference that they would altogether refuse to read a book written in present tense - if it's good.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

cassidycayman said:


> It seems to be super popular right now with YA and NA. Are there many mysteries that use it? For me it isn't a dealbreaker, just a bit jarring at first. I powered through the Hunger Games and am pretty used to it now because I love those genres as a reader.


Yeah, I think of this as a YA/NA thing.
Personally, the present-tense part of it makes it a dealbreaker. First-person in mystery can be great. (Dick Francis! My hero!) 
I think older readers are definitely much less used to it than are young women. And I think a lot of mystery readers (particularly cozy mysteries) are older women. Soooo . . . something to bear in mind.

But on the other hand, hey, that's the point of self-publishing! You get to do it your way and see for yourself! Let the market tell you. Because I can say for certain-sure that most of my readers aren't other authors, agents, or publishers. They're just (and gloriously) readers. I can sometimes tell when they're authors because they might write a review saying how I did something wrong.  But as long as my readers enjoy it, well, I'm good!


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Kelly Cozy said:


> Later this year I'll be revising and publishing a mystery MS. It's written in first person and present tense, as it's a mystery and I want the reader to learn things as the protagonist does. On another forum I saw people saying that they HATED present tense and/or first person and would never read a book with that type of narration.
> 
> I've never cared about what POV a novel uses as long as it follows the rules of that POV, but apparently other people feel strongly about this? Should I change my novel's tense/POV or just go with it and see what happens?


It entirely depends on the tone. If it fits in with New Adult in any way, it will fit well. Otherwise, it is risky and it will lose you some readers, but in the end, it's up to you--whether you think it adds more than you risk.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> It's true that you should write your way and be true to your vision and serve the story and so forth. However, it's also true that norms are established by the preferences of a significant majority.


I think that LeeBee has a point. I would say do what needs to be done, but realize you'll pay a price for it.

I write in 3rd person present tense. It works for the story; and is almost required for the later installments--Parts IV through VI. I have taken a LOT of heat for it. Some people have said the editing is really bad, and I think they don't like the tense. Some people say it is stilted, and directly relate it to the tense.

I have a few people who say they love it, but they are rare.

That said, I've begin seeing READERS of fiction out on the intertubes saying how they like present tense more and more, even 3rd person present tense. And most of my fans are actually older--men and women in the 35 yo + age bracket.

My sales are okay, and my sell thru rate after my permafree is good. I don't have a lot of organic downloads though.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Rich Amooi said:


> Also, have you noticed that the majority of the people that complain about first person are authors, not readers? Go figure.


Are you forgetting the obvious.... that authors are also readers??  Plus, it sounds like there are plenty of authors here who don't have a problem w/ present tense. I'm not one of them, but they exist.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Jena H said:


> Are you forgetting the obvious.... that authors are also readers??  Plus, it sounds like there are plenty of authors here who don't have a problem w/ present tense. I'm not one of them, but they exist.


But readers are not always, or even mostly, authors. They aren't bothered as much by writing styles. His comment wasn't painting all authors with the same brush, just merely pointing out that authors tend to disprove of present tense more so than readers. There's truth in that statement.

Just look how many writers here said they wouldn't even read a book if it was in present tense; if you extrapolate those numbers, present tense wouldn't be exploding as it is today.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> But readers are not always, or even mostly, authors.


Yes, this is true. Thankfully for me. Although I have a lot of readers who are authors.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I am just a reader and I really don't like first person in general. Only a few authors I can read it and still totally love it. Those are the only ones I will read now and they tend to be urban fantasy. I can't take it anymore in anything romance though. Its so hard now to find good contempo romance that is not written in the dreaded first person. And the present tense added to that just makes me run the other way now. Well now that I know what it is. So I don't like it at all. Thankfully, most of what I read is written in 3rd, normal style. 
Many of my reading friends from goodreads and booklikes don't like it either. We talk about that. Many of us read romances and don't like it. And like I said, in most regular romances, its not present. Its 3rd person. 

It seems to have popped up all over with this new adult thingy. I guess that explains why I don't read that anymore much. Spending time in annoying characters heads is something I don't want to do. And boy are some of those NA characters annoying.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Not to the OP but to the continuing discussion....

Go to readers' forums and look at the discussions there.  There are some readers who won't read 1st person at all and some who won't read 3rd.  1st present loses a LOT of readers.  It just does.  *shrugs*  Clearly, you don't have to please everyone to sell very well.  No one does that.  Heck, you don't even have to necessarily write a book with any kind of coherent plot or have any writing skill at all, in fact.    

There's a spectrum of likelihood for good things to happen, and what you do as an author determines where you'll fall on that scale.  Do you have a 4 in 5 chance of making a decent living from what you're doing now?  Or is it 1 in 10,000?  It can happen almost regardless of where you are on the spectrum, but there are a whole lot of things, from writing skill to genre to release frequency to marketing efforts to pricing, that helps determine where you are.  

Every decision contributes to that.  You can pretend it doesn't, but it does.

I swam upstream for years.  I had a national bestseller, too, doing all the wrong things.  But it's just punishing work, and it makes making a living (which I want to do) too dang hard.  I'm not a sellout, but I'm going to find something smack in the middle of a marketable category that I really, sincerely enjoy.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

Kelly Cozy said:


> Definitely not New Adult. The narrator is 38 or so. Past tense it is!


I'm assuming none of the people in this thread have read your manuscript, so I hope you're making the right decision.

Good luck with your book, and I mean that sincerely.


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## Andie (Jan 24, 2014)

Patricia Cornwell seems to do well with mystery/thrillers in first person present tense. 

I wouldn't consider changing your POV unless your beta readers say it's taking something away from the story--listen closest to people who have actually read the book. Most readers won't notice the POV past the first page or two if the story pulls them in. I recently read an excellent mystery written in third person present, which from what I've seen is more unusual a choice than first person present. It jarred me for a page, then the story swept me up and I stopped noticing the tense.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

You know, one thing that would really put to rest a lot of discussion and argument is if people wouldn't just _read_ their genre, but also actually look to their favorite authors in the genre and see what they do.

This is especially true of "invisible" things like tense and dialog tags. Sometimes you'll find that the author is doing something much more complicated than you think. For instance, they may be writing in past tense, but use present tense for actual thoughts.

Get a paperback copy of a book you admire, and a couple of different colored highlighters. Then pick a rule and test it by marking up the physical book with the highlighters.

For tense, use yellow for past, and pink for present. Blue for future. (You'll note that most writers use all three -- but one will be predominant.) Or test other rules -- mark up "-ing" words or variations on "to be" or passive voice. Circle every instance of the word "said."

There was once a raging argument here over whether you should say "said Jim" or whether you had to always say "Jim said." Some people were insistent that "said Jim" was archaic and never ever ever should be used in a modern fiction. So I grabbed some current fiction magazines which would offer me a variety of top commercial authors -- and guess what: they all violated most of the prejudices about taglines all over the place.

And for a question like the OP had: grab up current books in your subgenre and CHECK. With mystery (especially cozy mystery and traditional mystery) you'll find that present tense is a deal breaker. First person is more common than it used to be (it was always common in detective fiction -- even the light end of it). Also, the further into the thriller or hard-boiled end of the spectrum you get, the more you can experiment with style, because the great pulp writers had a tradition of experimenting.

And, as others have pointed out, if you're crossing into other genres (like NA) you may have to decide which audience you are going for.

Camille


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

We can find somebody who will tell us how they dislike just about anything. If we refrain from doing stuff because someone says they don't like it, nothing gets done. Id suggest ignoring my personal preferences.


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## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

First person, present tense is fine if it works for your story. It certainly worked in *The Hunger Games * - readers obviously loved it. Even weirder combinations are fine if they work. *Memento*, the movie that got Christopher Nolan noticed at the beginning of his career, was written from the point of view of a man with short-term memory loss, with part of the story going forward in time and part of the story getting pieced together going backwards in time. *Memento* was brilliantly written.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

I loathe present tense with a passion. I causes me so much mental frustration I want to chuck the book through a window! Arrgh! I think you should write in whatever feels best though. 

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

I don't really get why some people hate it so much.

In general, I'd probably say it's not my preferred tense, but sometimes I read something great in first person present tense and think -- damn, I want to do that.

I think anything can be done well, with the right author.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> This leads me to a very serious question as a reader.
> How can you write in a genre you have not read?


I love you.  

Seriously, I would make an educated guess that at least 70% of the questions that get asked by writers would be answered if the writer read widely and read in the genre he or she wanted to publish in.

The advise around here is to just publish...publish...publish. But to be a writer you must do more than write (and publish.) You must READ. You must read voraciously. You must read deeply within your own genre. You must read classic and contemporary works. You must read OUTSIDE your genre to get an understanding of how other authors handle certain concepts. If you are not reading, you are not writing the best work you can.

There were a couple of threads around here recently where authors made comments that they didn't have time to read because of their writing. Frankly, I no more trust a writer that doesn't read than I would a doctor that was "too busy" to keep up to date on the latest medical breakthroughs or a lawyer who didn't keep up to date on the most recent case law.

Think of it this way. If YOU are a writer are "too busy" to make time to read books, why should any reader make time to read you?


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> You know, one thing that would really put to rest a lot of discussion and argument is* if people wouldn't just read their genre*, but also actually *look to their favorite authors in the genre and see what they do*.


^^^^THIS^^^^


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

Terrence OBrien said:


> We can find somebody who will tell us how they dislike just about anything. If we refrain from doing stuff because someone says they don't like it, nothing gets done. Id suggest ignoring my personal preferences.


I love it!


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I love you.
> 
> Seriously, I would make an educated guess that at least 70% of the questions that get asked by writers would be answered if the writer read widely and read in the genre he or she wanted to publish in.
> 
> ...


BRAVO!!!!!!


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

My series is new adult and in first person/present tense.  I know first person/present tense does well in NA not because of what some authors say in threads at WC, but because I read the books.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

BTW, Julie, you never seem to get reprimanded for being blunt and to the point.  So I guess the safest thing for me to do is to just +1 your comments, or whatever, when I agree with them.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Well, it is possible to be blunt without being insulting. It's a fine line, and not everyone can walk it without slipping to one side or the other.


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## Nancy Beck (Jul 1, 2011)

Kelly Cozy said:


> Later this year I'll be revising and publishing a mystery MS. It's written in first person and present tense, as it's a mystery and I want the reader to learn things as the protagonist does. On another forum I saw people saying that they HATED present tense and/or first person and would never read a book with that type of narration.
> 
> I've never cared about what POV a novel uses as long as it follows the rules of that POV, but apparently other people feel strongly about this? Should I change my novel's tense/POV or just go with it and see what happens?


For me, present tense is especially hard to pull off. YMMV. I've read a few stories in present tense, and only two managed to hold my interest. (One, a short story I read years ago, really changed my mind, that it was possible to do right.) Would I read something in present tense. Possibly. The story would have to grab me right away.

First person? I read first person all the time, and actually prefer to write in it. I actually find writing in third person a little difficult, lol, but I wanted to try it for an entire book to see if I can do it. But I like the immediacy of first person, tho you can also do close third and get a similiar affect.

Only you can decide how best to tell the story. Do the first chapter in first and then in third. If either of those don't feel right, then you know to go with the other. At least, that's what I do when I can't decide.

Good luck!


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> Well, it is possible to be blunt without being insulting. It's a fine line, and not everyone can walk it without slipping to one side or the other.


No, Julie can be insulting. *You* can be insulting. *I* can be insulting. But Julie makes sense, and I LOVE THAT. I haven't been at WC long, so I'm happy to kneel to those who's opinions I respect.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> No, Julie can be insulting. *You* can be insulting. *I* can be insulting. But Julie makes sense, and I LOVE THAT. I haven't been at WC long, so I'm happy to kneel to those who's opinions I respect.


Yes, Julie can be insulting, but her posts are rarely _just_ about expressing her disdain.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> Yes, Julie can be insulting, but her posts are rarely _just_ about expressing her disdain.


That's fine.  I'm not looking to, nor do I need, to make friends here. Mainly here for the information, and Julie provides good information. So Julie, thanks!


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## BBGriffith (Mar 13, 2012)

My next series is a multiple POV first-person present narration. Why? Because I wanted to see if I could do it. I think it suits mysteries in particular because of the sense of immediateness it provides, and it gives it a touch of noir. Plus, being able to try out new styles is one of the many advantages of self-publishing.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Kelly Cozy said:


> And sometimes, when you're stuck at the day job and not able to get home to take a look at all the books by John D. MacDonald, James Ellroy, Jim Thompson, etc. you've read that are on your shelf, you just want to ask around and find out what people think.


True -- it can be good to take a survey of opinions of other writers. However, on issues like this, you'll generally get a lot of surface answers. That advice "go study your genre" isn't just for those who ask the question, but also for an awful lot of those who answer it.

The truth is, something like tense is not a choice you just make after weighing the ins and outs. It's not like, say, deciding on whether to use a pen name, or hire and editor, or even whether you can break a genre rule. It's something you really have to get to know in a lot more depth.

You can sometimes get that here on KB (try this topic "Tense - How Do You Choose?") but you really only get it by actual in depth study and practice.

It's a skill, not a simple knowledge/opinion thing.

Camille


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## m.a. petterson (Sep 11, 2013)

It's nice that Amazon has the 'look inside' feature.

If the reader doesn't like the free part s/he can just move on.

And if they do buy the book, and then complain about tense, well, _Here's your sign._


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I love you.
> 
> Seriously, I would make an educated guess that at least 70% of the questions that get asked by writers would be answered if the writer read widely and read in the genre he or she wanted to publish in.


Would 70% of posts be unnecessary if would-be posters read the whole thread? Kelly answered Cin's question yesterday:



Kelly Cozy said:


> My mistake for posting quickly so as to avoid detection by the boss. I've read quite a number of books in the genre. I didn't make note of what tense or POV they were in as long as it worked for the book. I don't have any particular feelings about different tenses or POVs, so that's not something I recall off the top of my head.


She can go back and survey the books she's read, now that she's newly interested in the possibilities of first-person present. She can also come here to ask her fellow writers for their professional opinions on the matter. Both of these approaches to gathering info are reasonable and responsible, but neither is a replacement for the other. There is nothing wrong with coming to KB and asking the kind of question Kelly asked.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Would 70% of posts be unnecessary if would-be posters read the whole thread? Kelly answered Cin's question yesterday:
> 
> She can go back and survey the books she's read, now that she's newly interested in the possibilities of first-person present. She can also come here to ask her fellow writers for their professional opinions on the matter. Both of these approaches to gathering info are reasonable and responsible, but neither is a replacement for the other. There is nothing wrong with coming to KB and asking the kind of question Kelly asked.


Yes, Kelly acknowledged my question. But here is the thing on my question, I have had numerous authors tell me that they have never read anything in the genre they were writing in because they don't have the time. They just want the fast bucks that some books say you will get by writing Kindle books. Yes the term kindle not ebook is usually given. 
FWIW reading those books will generally land you in the Amazon million or two million club.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't think anyone writes mysteries without being a reader of them. There is no "easy money" in that genre, and it takes a lot of work to get it right.


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't mine present tense as a reader.  I tend to prefer first person stories a great deal.  I like getting in the head of the character.

As for present tense as a writer - oh my.  It's a challenge.  In all my writing, I've only written one piece in present tense and that was a flash piece I did get published.  If you can do it, the more power to you.  I find myself pulling my hair out when I try it.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> BTW, *****, you never seem to get reprimanded for being blunt and to the point. So I guess the safest thing for me to do is to just +1 your comments, or whatever, when I agree with them.


Are you kidding? I've got multiple burn marks from Betsy's cattle prod to prove otherwise!


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Are you kidding? I've got multiple burn marks from Betsy's cattle prod to prove otherwise!


Okay! Ha Ha! Like I've said, I haven't been here long.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Here's the thing that bothers me about how a lot of us respond to posts where the OP requests opinions or information: many of us rush to judge the merits of the request first rather than just answering the question that was asked. It's not just one or two people who do this - the majority of respondents often do it (myself included). The fact that some of them are snarky or even insulting when doing it just further embarrasses or frustrates the OP, understandably.

Sometimes, yeah, the OP seems to have it coming, if he or she has obviously not done a basic amount of research or independent thought before posing the question to the forum, but I submit that every time we give in to that impulse to smack somebody down because "they are asking for it," we lower the tone of this place to a baser level _and_ we send a message that this is not a safe place for newbies to ask questions.

I guess it's up to the active community members to decide what kind of place they want the WC to be.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

Kelly Cozy said:


> And sometimes, when you're stuck at the day job and not able to get home to take a look at all the books by John D. MacDonald, James Ellroy, Jim Thompson, etc. you've read that are on your shelf, you just want to ask around and find out what people think.


I'm sorry, but this is a bit of a cop-out. There is a difference between asking a question regarding some factual point ("Can someone describe the difference between a pistol and a revolver in layman's terms?") and a fundamental lack of knowledge of the entire genre one claims to write in ("So, does my romance have to have a HEA or can I let the hero die?"). I work full time, too. I also run a micro press. _Yet I still read_. I make it a point to read. I consider reading to be something of a requirement for a writer, like learning basic grammar and doing revisions. Nobody expects you to read every book by MacDonald RIGHT THIS SECOND. But you know, if you claim to be a writer in that genre, you should have been reading that stuff ALL ALONG.

Reading is so fundamental to being a good writer that it is painful for me to have to even argue the point. How can you develop as a writer without having a firm foundation built on an understanding of what came before you? I call it literary literacy. If you don't know what came before you or what is happening around you know, how can you write books that will resonate with the future? So many authors spin their wheels chasing gimmicks or trying to be original, and yet they never learned the basic tools of storytelling that you can only learn from reading.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> Here's the thing that bothers me about how a lot of us respond to posts where the OP requests opinions or information: many of us rush to judge the merits of the request first rather than just answering the question that was asked. It's not just one or two people who do this - the majority of respondents often do it (myself included). The fact that some of them are snarky or even insulting when doing it just further embarrasses or frustrates the OP, understandably.
> 
> Sometimes, yeah, the OP seems to have it coming, if he or she has obviously not done a basic amount of research or independent thought before posing the question to the forum, but I submit that every time we give in to that impulse to smack somebody down because "they are asking for it," we lower the tone of this place to a baser level _and_ we send a message that this is not a safe place for newbies to ask questions.
> 
> I guess it's up to the active community members to decide what kind of place they want the WC to be.


Okay, I respect your point.

This thread struck a nerve with me because I HATE IT when authors change something just because a bunch of people don't like something. As has already been mentioned - do the reading, do the research. Then make changes if you honestly feel it's best for the work. (I don't mean when your readers all tell you something needs to change. I'm talking about a bunch of authors at WC who have never read the work.)

But for me to survive at WC, I need to be careful about the threads I choose to join. That's something I can control, and I need to do a better job of it.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm sorry, but this is a bit of a cop-out. There is a difference between asking a question regarding some factual point ("Can someone describe the difference between a pistol and a revolver in layman's terms?") and a fundamental lack of knowledge of the entire genre one claims to write in ("So, does my romance have to have a HEA or can I let the hero die?"). I work full time, too. I also run a micro press. _Yet I still read_. I make it a point to read. I consider reading to be something of a requirement for a writer, like learning basic grammar and doing revisions. Nobody expects you to read every book by MacDonald RIGHT THIS SECOND. But you know, if you claim to be a writer in that genre, you should have been reading that stuff ALL ALONG.
> 
> Reading is so fundamental to being a good writer that it is painful for me to have to even argue the point. How can you develop as a writer without having a firm foundation built on an understanding of what came before you? I call it literary literacy. If you don't know what came before you or what is happening around you know, how can you write books that will resonate with the future? So many authors spin their wheels chasing gimmicks or trying to be original, and yet they never learned the basic tools of storytelling that you can only learn from reading.


+1


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> I guess it's up to the active community members to decide what kind of place they want the WC to be.


I have a philosophy. You don't create a diamond by rubbing a piece of coal with fluffy bunny slippers. You create a diamond by applying pressure and heat. Writer's Cafe is not grade school. This is a high-level community of professional writers and people aspiring to be professional writers. So yes, while newbies are welcome, they also have their own responsibility to do the basic homework. It isn't just writers. It is a fundamental issue with internet communities in general. It is easy to ask a question and expect others to do all the research for you than to, at a minimum, get a baseline understanding first and then asking a more focused question.

But when someone asks a question that demonstrates that they lack a fundamental understanding of the profession they are trying to work in, we do nobody any favors by pretending the merit of the question is unimportant. I know the mods hate it when we critique stories, for example, even when someone is just asking for advice on a book cover or whether they should use Bookbub. But it is really impossible to answer some questions in a void like you are suggestion because it would be irresponsible to do so. If someone asks me whether or not they should spend $300 on a new cover because their book is not selling, and I notice that they have fifteen typos in their sample (true story). What am I, as a responsible person, really supposed to say? Sure, spend $300 on a new cover? Or recommend that maybe they should spend that money on a proofreader?

I think what you see here are people who WANT others to succeed. You have a high-performing community here that is driven for excellence. They are passionate about what they do and they expect others to be equally passionate.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm sorry, but this is a bit of a cop-out. There is a difference between asking a question regarding some factual point ("Can someone describe the difference between a pistol and a revolver in layman's terms?") and a fundamental lack of knowledge of the entire genre one claims to write in ("So, does my romance have to have a HEA or can I let the hero die?"). I work full time, too. I also run a micro press. _Yet I still read_. I make it a point to read. I consider reading to be something of a requirement for a writer, like learning basic grammar and doing revisions. Nobody expects you to read every book by MacDonald RIGHT THIS SECOND. But you know, if you claim to be a writer in that genre, you should have been reading that stuff ALL ALONG.
> 
> Reading is so fundamental to being a good writer that it is painful for me to have to even argue the point. How can you develop as a writer without having a firm foundation built on an understanding of what came before you? I call it literary literacy. If you don't know what came before you or what is happening around you know, how can you write books that will resonate with the future? So many authors spin their wheels chasing gimmicks or trying to be original, and yet they never learned the basic tools of storytelling that you can only learn from reading.


+2

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm sorry, but this is a bit of a cop-out. There is a difference between asking a question regarding some factual point ("Can someone describe the difference between a pistol and a revolver in layman's terms?") and a fundamental lack of knowledge of the entire genre one claims to write in ("So, does my romance have to have a HEA or can I let the hero die?"). I work full time, too. I also run a micro press. _Yet I still read_. I make it a point to read. I consider reading to be something of a requirement for a writer, like learning basic grammar and doing revisions. Nobody expects you to read every book by MacDonald RIGHT THIS SECOND. But you know, if you claim to be a writer in that genre, you should have been reading that stuff ALL ALONG.
> 
> Reading is so fundamental to being a good writer that it is painful for me to have to even argue the point. How can you develop as a writer without having a firm foundation built on an understanding of what came before you? I call it literary literacy. If you don't know what came before you or what is happening around you know, how can you write books that will resonate with the future? So many authors spin their wheels chasing gimmicks or trying to be original, and yet they never learned the basic tools of storytelling that you can only learn from reading.


I LOVE YOU <3  

THIS. You are so right.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

von19 said:


> Sent from *International Space Station* using Tapatalk


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


>


Lol!  _Shh,_ dont tell anyone.

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have a philosophy. You don't create a diamond by rubbing a piece of coal with fluffy bunny slippers. You create a diamond by applying pressure and heat. Writer's Cafe is not grade school. This is a high-level community of professional writers and people aspiring to be professional writers. So yes, while newbies are welcome, they also have their own responsibility to do the basic homework. It isn't just writers. It is a fundamental issue with internet communities in general. It is easy to ask a question and expect others to do all the research for you than to, at a minimum, get a baseline understanding first and then asking a more focused question.
> 
> But when someone asks a question that demonstrates that they lack a fundamental understanding of the profession they are trying to work in, we do nobody any favors by pretending the merit of the question is unimportant. I know the mods hate it when we critique stories, for example, even when someone is just asking for advice on a book cover or whether they should use Bookbub. But it is really impossible to answer some questions in a void like you are suggestion because it would be irresponsible to do so. If someone asks me whether or not they should spend $300 on a new cover because their book is not selling, and I notice that they have fifteen typos in their sample (true story). What am I, as a responsible person, really supposed to say? Sure, spend $300 on a new cover? Or recommend that maybe they should spend that money on a proofreader?
> 
> I think what you see here are people who WANT others to succeed. You have a high-performing community here that is driven for excellence. They are passionate about what they do and they expect others to be equally passionate.


Completely agreeing with you again.

This is why if someone asks why their book isn't selling and should they do x, I will take 15 minutes out of my day to look at their book. I will also tell that person if they want my full opinion please message me.
Sometimes I can help and other times leaves me screaming.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have a philosophy. You don't create a diamond by rubbing a piece of coal with fluffy bunny slippers. You create a diamond by applying pressure and heat. Writer's Cafe is not grade school. This is a high-level community of professional writers and people aspiring to be professional writers. So yes, while newbies are welcome, they also have their own responsibility to do the basic homework. It isn't just writers. It is a fundamental issue with internet communities in general. It is easy to ask a question and expect others to do all the research for you than to, at a minimum, get a baseline understanding first and then asking a more focused question.
> 
> But when someone asks a question that demonstrates that they lack a fundamental understanding of the profession they are trying to work in, we do nobody any favors by pretending the merit of the question is unimportant. I know the mods hate it when we critique stories, for example, even when someone is just asking for advice on a book cover or whether they should use Bookbub. But it is really impossible to answer some questions in a void like you are suggestion because it would be irresponsible to do so. If someone asks me whether or not they should spend $300 on a new cover because their book is not selling, and I notice that they have fifteen typos in their sample (true story). What am I, as a responsible person, really supposed to say? Sure, spend $300 on a new cover? Or recommend that maybe they should spend that money on a proofreader?
> 
> I think what you see here are people who WANT others to succeed. You have a high-performing community here that is driven for excellence. They are passionate about what they do and they expect others to be equally passionate.


I don't dispute any of this. However, I would argue that the people posting questions here are full-grown adults who, whether or not they are competent as writers or publishers, are entitled to ask the questions they feel they need answered. Just because we see that they are doing something "wrong" doesn't entitle us to not treat them with respect. About 99% of the conflicts that erupt in request-for-help threads could be avoided if more people accorded the poster some basic respect _first,_ then offered the "tough love" in a way that wasn't demeaning or humiliating.

For instance, let's say I'm helping to run a charity event IRL and the volunteer in charge of publicity walks up to me holding a very low-quality poster and asks me, "Where are the best places to put these?"

The poster is not at all competent or effective and I am tempted to say, "Straight into the recycling bin." But that choice (while momentarily satisfying) will take the encounter in a very different direction than if I simply say, "The best poster locations are usually X, Y, and Z," answering the question she asked. _Then_ I could bring up the poster contents and ask how the design was settled on, gently point out how it differs from the requirements that were handed down originally, and discuss how to make changes to improve the poster so that it meets the needs of our event.

She may still be upset that I don't like her work, but it won't be because I failed to answer the question she asked, and it won't be because I smacked her down for her poor choices in creating the poster.

There are always easy and compassionate ways to deal with situations like those that come up on this forum every day. It can be more work, but it also stands a better chance of fostering an atmosphere in which the OP is more likely to listen to the advice than if he or she feels attacked or humiliated.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Yes, Kelly acknowledged my question. But here is the thing on my question, I have had numerous authors tell me that they have never read anything in the genre they were writing in because they don't have the time. They just want the fast bucks that some books say you will get by writing Kindle books. Yes the term kindle not ebook is usually given.
> FWIW reading those books will generally land you in the Amazon million or two million club.


I agree about the importance of reading in your genre(s). I've also heard a few authors admit they're attempting to write in a genre they don't know anything about. (It's pretty much always been romance or erotica.) I think you're right about their chances for success -- so slim you'll get a complex just thinking about it.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Reading is so fundamental to being a good writer that it is painful for me to have to even argue the point. How can you develop as a writer without having a firm foundation built on an understanding of what came before you? I call it literary literacy. If you don't know what came before you or what is happening around you know, how can you write books that will resonate with the future? So many authors spin their wheels chasing gimmicks or trying to be original, and yet they never learned the basic tools of storytelling that you can only learn from reading.


Julie, you're straw-manning. There is not one person on this thread who has suggested that reading is not an important part of being a writer. Kelly has confirmed that she has read quite a bit in her genre. You are arguing against something NO ONE is advocating rather than addressing the point some people ARE making, which is that it is inappropriate to attack someone who comes to the forum to ask an honest question of her peers. If you think we're a bad resource for help with her decision, then just tell Kelly that and explain why you think studying her genre is the only good way to come to a decision. That approach would be respectful, helpful, and not in the least fluffy-bunny-slipperish.

You can tell it like you think it is without going over the top.


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## Lefevre (Feb 1, 2014)

It is harder to read and also harder to write. Do whatever feels right for the particular story. I say take a chance, because that is what indie publishing is for.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Think of it this way. If YOU are a writer are "too busy" to make time to read books, why should any reader make time to read you?


Because the consumer is interested in the book, doesn't give a rip how the author spends his free time, and has no interest in finding out?


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> Julie, you're straw-manning. There is not one person on this thread who has suggested that reading is not an important part of being a writer.


(NOTE I typed too fast -- I've edited the post for clarity)

I disagree -- oh, I agree that nobody here is advocating the idea of not reading in your genre, but I do disagree that Julie is setting up a straw man.

(First let me make clear: the OP should not be jumped on for asking a question. She has a right to ask the question. We don't know why she's asking it. We don't have to answer it. She is more than likely just thinking about it and that's a first step.)

But....

I, like Julie, have noticed that an awful lot of people don't seem to take actual study of the basics very seriously. And maybe that's because nobody mentioned that there is actually more there to know, hence Julie and others reiterating the advice and trying to push people beyond the simple platitude: If you want to write, you've got to read.

Just "reading widely in the genre" isn't enough. You can read a dozen books a week without actually learning the genre or what techniques are used. If you're reading like a reader, then you are reading for what you personally get out of the book. You're reading for the experience, not for how that experience is created.

You don't learn how to be a magician by just watching the tricks. You have to look behind the curtain to see how those tricks are done. Some people don't like to do that because they think it will ruin their believe in magic. But if you want to be a magician, you have to. You'll get that belief back.

It is not a sin to not know that there is more to know than you imagined. We're all born ignorant. And it's not even a sin to take offense when someone points out your ignorance, when you're ignorant that you were ignorant. However, it behooves everyone to take a deeper look when someone says there's more to it. That's how we learn, once we are grown ups.

But back to the original point of Julie and the straw man: I know way too many people who know full well they should read more in their genre, who actually intend to, who don't argue against it... but they still don't do it. They still kinda want everybody else to tell them. You know, because they got busy and it's important to know now. (Even if it isn't important enough to make time to learn it themselves.)

So no, Julie wasn't arguing against a straw man. (She may be arguing with a crowd rather than an individual, which can feel the same way.)

Camille


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Because the consumer is interested in the book, doesn't give a rip how the author spends his free time, and has no interest in finding out?


I want to address this point. Terrence is sort of right.
He is right in that no I really don't care how an author spends his free time. What I do care about is how the author spends his crafting time. Here is the difference.
Free time= time not spent working
Crafting time= time spent on your books. This does not just mean the time you put fingers to keyboard and type. This also means time spent learning about your craft. Yes that includes reading. 
If you are reading to educate yourself that is not free time reading but work related reading. If you are reading for pleasure, then that is free time reading.

Now I just got commissioned to do a blanket in crochet. The time I spend looking through my craft books will be part of the time it takes to make the blanket. Reading Vydorscope's book will be my free or pleasure time reading.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

"This also means time spent learning about your craft.  Yes that includes reading."

I'm sure you don't mean it this way, I know you're a kind person, but that reads as incredibly condescending. I think most writers here know that reading is an important part of growing and improving as an author. We are well aware of the difference between reading for fun and reading for something more. This is what many of us do for a living, after all.

I do admit that some newbies might need a gentle reminder to read in their genre with a critical eye more than they do, but even newbs aren't idiots.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Monique said:


> "This also means time spent learning about your craft. Yes that includes reading."
> 
> I'm sure you don't mean it this way, I know you're a kind person, but that reads as incredibly condescending. I think most writers here know that reading is an important part of growing and improving as an author. We are well aware of the difference between reading for fun and reading for something more. This is what many of us do for a living, after all.
> 
> I do admit that some newbies might need a gentle reminder to read in their genre with a critical eye more than they do, but even newbs aren't idiots.


It sounds like some folks are drawing a harsh conclusion when hearing an author complain that they "just don't have time to read these days." The fact that maybe they aren't reading much _right now_ doesn't necessarily indicate that they are not already well-read, or that they don't know their own genre.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Monique said:


> "This also means time spent learning about your craft. Yes that includes reading."
> 
> I'm sure you don't mean it this way, I know you're a kind person, but that reads as incredibly condescending. I think most writers here know that reading is an important part of growing and improving as an author. We are well aware of the difference between reading for fun and reading for something more. This is what many of us do for a living, after all.
> 
> I do admit that some newbies might need a gentle reminder to read in their genre with a critical eye more than they do, but even newbs aren't idiots.


I will apologize for coming across like that. I had not thought of it the way Monique read my post.
Let me rephrase.
What I meant was even technical reading should be considered part of your work time, not part of your free time. It should be considered an important part of work time just like marketing and all the rest of detail work that goes along with the writing.

I sure did not mean that any of you don't know that reading is important.
All I want is for all of you to become the best writer you can, and you cannot do that if you make excuses on any part of it.

Thanks Monique.

Too LeeBee,
No I have just heard the I do not read/have not actually read in whichever genre too dang many times lately. 
I have actually heard I am a writer not a reader once.

Or maybe I am just tired of the bad book spell I seem to be on.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Now I remember why I come here less and less frequently....


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## Micah Ackerman (Feb 16, 2014)

Back to the discussion of person and tenses.

Lately I have been writing a lot in fourth person future tense, but I'd like to experiment using fifth person inter-dimentional tense, it's a tense that I like to refer to as sideways tense. In fact when I write I do flashbacks, forshadowing and sometimes side-back-shadowing. It's really groundbreaking and I think it will be the next big thing to break in the GASNF market oh by the way that's Geriatric Adult Speculative Non-Fiction market for the layperson.

I also think that not even using tense and speaking all in nouns is a form of writing that is really under-utilized in the kindle book market. I also love authors who write their book in old-british-style English with their words going from right to left !!111!!!1!!!!!!

Just my opinion, but you can write any way you want, I'm sticking with all of the above at the same time.

Micah


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## Basement Cat (Dec 12, 2013)

For me, the combination of first person and present tense, although  not a 100% deal breaker, comes close to it. IF I have some other good reason for giving the work a chance I may still read it, but if I'm just browsing, then no, I will almost certainly not choose that book; there has to be one hell of an inducement. I dislike present tense writing intensely, except where it's used effectively - e.g. it can be useful in dream sequences or flashbacks, but where it forms the main narrative it has an effect on me similar to a suggestion that I eat at McDonalds. First person, on the other hand, is not a problem; I don't particularly like or dislike it. However when it is used in combination with present tense, I find that it tends to exacerbate my already great dislike of the present tense.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

daringnovelist said:


> Just "reading widely in the genre" isn't enough. You can read a dozen books a week without actually learning the genre or what techniques are used. If you're reading like a reader, then you are reading for what you personally get out of the book. You're reading for the experience, not for how that experience is created.
> 
> You don't learn how to be a magician by just watching the tricks. You have to look behind the curtain to see how those tricks are done. Some people don't like to do that because they think it will ruin their believe in magic. But if you want to be a magician, you have to. You'll get that belief back.
> 
> It is not a sin to not know that there is more to know than you imagined. We're all born ignorant. And it's not even a sin to take offense when someone points out your ignorance, when you're ignorant that you were ignorant. However, it behooves everyone to take a deeper look when someone says there's more to it. That's how we learn, once we are grown ups.


Camille, I agree completely with the distinction you're drawing between pleasure reading, where you fall into a book and try NOT to think about its artifice, and analytical reading, where you actively try to step back and assess the _how_ and _why_ of the author's writerly choices as you read. That's great. In fact, it'd make a great OP for a thread on "how to read like an author," or something.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the straw-man thing. Julie hasn't (on this thread) articulated anything like the careful types-of-reading distinction you're making. I just read back over her posts, to see if I'd jumped the gun and been unfair, but the only possible suggestion of your idea I see in her posts is the phrase "read deeply within your own genre." That's a pretty thin hook on which to hang the above ideas. In contrast, I see a lot of evidence that what she's arguing against is the "writer that doesn't read." I think the ideas you're laying out above are, in fact, your ideas.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Camille, I agree completely with the distinction you're drawing between pleasure reading, where you fall into a book and try NOT to think about its artifice, and analytical reading, where you actively try to step back and assess the _how_ and _why_ of the author's writerly choices as you read. That's great. *In fact, it'd make a great OP for a thread on "how to read like an author,"*


Oh, THAT would be a really good thread topic!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> We're going to have to agree to disagree on the straw-man thing. Julie hasn't (on this thread) articulated anything like the careful types-of-reading distinction you're making. I just read back over her posts, to see if I'd jumped the gun and been unfair, but the only possible suggestion of your idea I see in her posts is the phrase "read deeply within your own genre." That's a pretty thin hook on which to hang the above ideas. In contrast, I see a lot of evidence that what she's arguing against is the "writer that doesn't read." I think the ideas you're laying out above are, in fact, your ideas.


You cut off the part where I addressed the straw man. I didn't say that my ideas were her ideas, I was merely explaining why listening to her ideas were a good idea.

The point about the straw man is that her argument isn't that people here have taken the position that you don't have to read in the genre, but rather that everybody _claims_ to believe that, but they don't act on it. I don't think that's a straw man argument here at all. It's incredibly valid, not only in this thread, but in most threads on skill-related topics.

However, I would cut people more slack than she does.

Camille


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

I personally don't mind first person. Present tense, I personally find annoying. Those are my tastes.

I'm not every reader.

Nothing like that is a deal breaker for me, but I might end up not being your ideal reader when it comes to present tense.

When done well, I can stomach it. When present tense is not done well, it just bothers me enough that I can't get into the story and I move on to something else.

But that's just me.

Sent from my LG G2 Android Phone.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

daringnovelist said:


> You cut off the part where I addressed the straw man. I didn't say that my ideas were her ideas, I was merely explaining why listening to her ideas were a good idea.
> 
> The point about the straw man is that her argument isn't that people here have taken the position that you don't have to read in the genre, but rather that everybody _claims_ to believe that, but they don't act on it. I don't think that's a straw man argument here at all. It's incredibly valid, not only in this thread, but in most threads on skill-related topics.
> 
> ...


I just went over the posts again, and again failed to see anything but straightforward attacks on authors not reading, especially in their genres. That said, I don't really see a difference between the idea that some authors don't read in their genres and the idea that authors claim to believe in genre reading but don't do it. Either way, authors are not reading. But at least on this thread, no one has either advocated or guiltily admitted to not reading in their genres. Certainly not the OP.

Dunno. One of us is misreading Julie's posts, at least to some degree. I'm pooped, so it could well be me. She can pop in to clear things up if she wants.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

I didn't have a chance to come back yesterday and respond, but Camille hit it on the head.

Indeed, I'm not talking about the casual reading people do. I'm talking about reading critically. Lots of people around here DO read, of course. But I am not talking about casual reading. What I said was that people need to read _voraciously_. You need to read classics in your genre. You need to read classics OUTSIDE of your genre. You need to read books that challenge you and are difficult, not just popcorn books that you can breeze through in a day or two. I know too many people who will proudly proclaim that they read a book a day, but can't articulate the basics of the plot or who miss most of the details of the book because they didn't read it critically. They just "consumed" it like a person does a bag of chips or a bowl of popcorn.

Maybe it is because I was an English major, but there is reading and then there is *reading*. There is skimming a book and reading the words, and then there is really thinking about what those words mean. There is thinking about what the words mean, and then thinking about all of the different interpretations of what those words can mean. It is reading the work in the context of the times it was written and making connections. It is about having that long literary literacy so that you can see the connections across multiple books and the metaphors and symbolism that most people breeze over. I really like Camille's comparison to a magician. It is the same thing. You can't just read as a passive activity. You have to read actively and think about what you are reading.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm also an English/Writing major, and I don't think being forced to write essays on Milton made me a better writer. I would have been better off marathon reading romance novels from the library. I could have saved myself forty grand. My degree taught me how to compose a sentence, but it didn't teach me to write marketable fiction. I'm essentially prepared to write term papers. There aren't a lot of jobs for that.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Heh. Well, considering my day job, I'm all in favor of the kind of reading you're talking about, Julie. I've assigned many a paper on Milton.  I agree with alf that doing that kind of _writing_ doesn't teach you to write fiction, but that kind of _reading _can help you learn the basics of how a story is put together (in the broadest sense), how literary devices work, etc.

But I have a feeling Camille was talking more about subjecting works in your chosen genre to structural analysis -- POV and narrative tense and scene length and character types and plot arcs and so forth. Unless you write literary fiction, you probably won't get to that in college. You have to do it on your own.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I have to say Julie is right on reading.  There are some books I could describe in detail and haunt my dreams and there are others that it was fun while it lasted but now I am on to the next shiny toy.  
So how one reads each book makes a difference.

And we are not discussing the books that leave me a grumpy Gus.


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## dotx (Nov 4, 2010)

I don't understand the hate. Maybe it's because I read a lot of YA and the present tense is very popular in YA books... One of my favorite YA series of all times, The Forest of Hands and Trees (and the two sequels), is written in present tense and it works. The Hunger Games is another example. 

I guess when I'm loving the actual story, I don't even notice the tense.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Present anything is a dealbreaker here. If I open a book and see it, I clap it closed immediately and put it back on the shelf.

It's recently been trying to nudge its way into the genres I enjoy and it annoys the crap out of me when I come across a book with a promising blurb but that reads like what going mad feels like on the inside. Promising new Fantasy books that aren't aping Martin are too few and far between these days to lose more to flawed tense choices.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> I just went over the posts again, and again failed to see anything but straightforward attacks on authors not reading, especially in their genres.


That was the point of the rest of my post, the part you did quote. To paraphrase:

We don't always know what we are missing. Sometimes when someone says something critical, they're talking about something we can't see. It's not our fault for being blind to it -- and so I, for one, don't blame people for getting upset at the criticism -- but it is our fault if such criticism doesn't lead us to taking a deeper look. (And to keep looking until we learn something, regardless of whether the critic was right or not.)

It was completely clear to me what Julie was talking about. And it's also clear to me that many of those she's talking to can't see it at all.

Camille


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

dotx said:


> I don't understand the hate.


Part of the problem is that first person in itself is very easy to do WRONG. I love good first person narratives, but I rarely find good first person narratives. Compound this by the present tense, which is also very easy to do wrong, and in the hands of a poor writer it is a recipe for disaster. Of course, a poor writer can screw up anything, but problems become _more glaring_ with the present tense because it it tends to become very conversational instead of narrative. The more conversational a story gets, the more likely the author slips into data dumps and lapses of logic.

It boils down to the art of storytelling, which is different than just writing a story. First person present tense tends to do poorly with actual storytelling because it is too conversational. A mediocre writer can generally write in the past tense and still tell a competent story, The same writer writing in the present tense will have his or her mediocrity on full display. I say this as an editor of a speculative fiction journal who has worked with hundreds of writers over the years. It takes a special level of talent to engage in the art of storytelling in the first person present tense, a level that everyone likes to think that they have but few people actually do. I've worked with a lot of authors and the simple act of changing a story from first person present to past tense (either third or first person) is often all it takes to make a blah story a publishable one.

The thing with first person narration is that the narrator must be ENGAGING. I don't want to suffer through 200 pages of someone telling me a story who has no personality. There are some people I could listen to read their darn grocery list and I would be enthralled. And there are others who could be telling me about an alien abduction and after two minutes I would be screaming "Oh My God Get To The Point Already!" First person is completely dependent on the personality of the narrator, and this becomes compounded by the present tense.

And it works better in some genres than others. First person present tense in an epic fantasy? Ye gods, shoot me. Contemporary fantasy? I'm more open-minded.

At the end of the day, if you are talented enough to pull it off then anything can "work." But then it becomes a question of being honest enough at evaluating your own skills to know whether or not you are that talented. How many authors around here have truly taken full stock of their weaknesses? Do you know what your weakness are and are you working toward improving them? ACTIVELY working to improve them and not just adopting the "keep writing and you get better" mantra? Because if you don't know what your weaknesses are, writing more simply sets into habit all the things you do wrong and doesn't make you a better writer. If you believe 2+2=7, writing that eight hundred times won't suddenly make you right. You'll just be wrong 800 times.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I loathe Milton. I thought Paradise Lost might make me gouge my eyes out. I couldn't understand a d*mn word of it. I would rather read Schopenhauer all the livelong day. Paradise Lost was only slightly less terrible than Beowulf. Of course, my b*tch PhD English professor sister was applauded that I could be an English major an not lap that [crap] up like a kitten drinks cream. I didn't. I hated very second of it. I say this as someone who got a 4.0 in her Shakespeare class. Shakespeare could tell a d*mn good story in a language that was only slightly foreign to my modern ears. I'm personally not very fond of "classic" literature in most cases. News flash: most readers aren't either.

I've had so many convoluted lectures about "deep reading" from same said sister, that every time someone uses those words I almost black out. Ironically, we didn't do very much fiction reading while I was in school. We read about literature and then we analysed it. I had a total of four writing workshops, and I don't think the two math classes I had to suffer through helped my writing all that much either. Lesson: if you want to be a writer, get a library card, don't get an English degree.

As far as first person present. I used to hate it. I actually quite enjoy it now after reading some very entertaining NA romance novels.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

alf said:


> I loathe Milton. I thought Paradise Lost might make me gouge my eyes out. I couldn't understand a d*mn word of it.


And yet it is one of the most influential works of literature. References to it appear in everything from Prometheus Unbound to Neil Gaiman's work. Frankly, you don't need to "like" it. But you need to understand it. I personally hated reading Melville (and I had the misfortune of having the President of the Mellville Society as an English professor at one point!). But reading it gave me a stronger foundation as a writer.

Most readers may not care for the classics (well, YOUR readers. Mine tend to be of a more literary bent and do care and read the classics.) But you know, most patients don't really have a strong interest in studying the inner workings of contagious diseases. But I would hope doctors themselves would. Most people don't really enjoy reading legal briefs or studying case law, but if you call yourself a lawyer you better be doing that stuff. The average consumer has no interest in a lot of things that craftspersons need to know to perform their craft correctly. As writers, we are craftspersons, and we are expected to know things about our craft that most readers don't care about or don't even know exists.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And yet it is one of the most influential works of literature. References to it appear in everything from Prometheus Unbound to Neil Gaiman's work. Frankly, you don't need to "like" it. But you need to understand it. I personally hated reading Melville (and I had the misfortune of having the President of the Mellville Society as an English professor at one point!). But reading it gave me a stronger foundation as a writer.
> 
> Most readers may not care for the classics (well, YOUR readers. Mine tend to be of a more literary bent and do care and read the classics.) But you know, most patients don't really have a strong interest in studying the inner workings of contagious diseases. But I would hope doctors themselves would. Most people don't really enjoy reading legal briefs or studying case law, but if you call yourself a lawyer you better be doing that stuff. The average consumer has no interest in a lot of things that craftspersons need to know to perform their craft correctly. As writers, we are craftspersons, and we are expected to know things about our craft that most readers don't care about or don't even know exists.


Do you really believe all best sellers are English majors who've read all the classics? I'd rather have the money than to feel like I have some intellectual superiority. And yes, I do have an English degree. I graduated with Latin Honors. I honestly believe I would have learned more about "craft" with a library card, so I could marathon read romance novels and a handful of craft books.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I personally feel that there's a difference between literary understanding and understanding of _story_. I get more out of reading terrible things and analyzing where they failed than from reading 'classics' and trying to figure out why _My Antonia_ is one of them despite being objectively bad in every way.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

alf said:


> ....I've had so many convoluted lectures about "deep reading" from same said sister, that every time someone uses those words I almost black out. Ironically, we didn't do very much fiction reading while I was in school. We read about literature and then we analysed it. I had a total of four writing workshops, and I don't think the two math classes I had to suffer through helped my writing all that much either. Lesson: if you want to be a writer, get a library card, don't get an English degree.
> 
> As far as first person present. I used to hate it. I actually quite enjoy it now after reading some very entertaining NA romance novels.


Reading for literary interpretation is very different from deep reading for craft. Literary issues are for readers. Craft issues are for writers.

An example: when we watch Fred Astaire dance, a viewer might talk about the effect he has on them. They might talk about the theme, and how he makes that coat rack look like a living partner.

A dancer, on the other hand, has to notice how he shifts his weight and uses momentum to get the effect. You can't fudge your understanding of balance, weight shifts and momentum if you want to dance. You have to have control.

So "deep reading" for a writer, is really about stopping to re-read, and noticing things like use of tense, or wordiness, or use of dialog tags. Most people don't actually look at those things: they just trust what other people tell them, and then only notice it when it confirms what they've heard.

It can be purely on a mechanical level: just take a look at real books to see if the rule you just learned is correct. Or you can take it to a deeper (almost literary) level and look at characters and how they tick and how they are revealed. Or look at how a great writer builds a mood, or constructs a surprising twist. (These things don't happen just by magic. There's a lot of art to it.)

Maybe even that kind of deeper stuff would bore some folks too, but I have always thought that anything that feels relevant and useful (as opposed to snobby and pointless) will be interesting.

I sometimes talk about that stuff on my blog -- maybe an example would help. Here's a post analyzing dialog tags, and another one analyzing how Samuel L. Jackson's character exerts control in a scene from Pulp Fiction.

IMHO, you don't have to study everything like that, but it doesn't hurt to periodically do a spot check on things like the dialog tag post, especially if you switch genres or get criticism for doing something. (Such as writing present tense -- find good, successful examples of books loved by the audience you are going for, and check to see how they do it.)

I do think that, rather than say "I'm going to use present tense because I think it's more immediate" you should say "I want my book to feel urgent and immediate. What books have I read that succeed at that, and how did they do it?" Because very often your guess at what creates a particular effect may well be wrong.

Camille


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

alf said:


> Do you really believe all best sellers are English majors who've read all the classics? I'd rather have the money than to feel like I have some intellectual superiority. And yes, I do have an English degree. I graduated with Latin Honors. I honestly believe I would have learned more about "craft" with a library card, so I could marathon read romance novels and a handful of craft books.


I have a degree in sociology; I read most of the classics by the time I was 21, but I love the zombie genre. 

If you know you're smart, do the opinions of others really matter?


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

alf said:


> Do you really believe all best sellers are English majors who've read all the classics? I'd rather have the money than to feel like I have some intellectual superiority. And yes, I do have an English degree. I graduated with Latin Honors. I honestly believe I would have learned more about "craft" with a library card, so I could marathon read romance novels and a handful of craft books.


While most successful writers weren't English majors, they most certainly have read much more widely than your average person. And yes, they usually have at least some favorites among the classics.

First, let's be clear on what "classics" are: I'm not talking Shakespeare here. If you write mystery, you'd better have read Agatha Christie and Raymond Chandler. If you write Regency Romance, you better have read Georgette Heyer. If you want to write horror, you'd better have read both Poe and Stephen King.

If you don't want to read the best of what went before you, then you are reinventing the wheel. And odds are you're going to do a bad job of it.

Camille


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)




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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> I have a degree in sociology; I read most of the classics by the time I was 21, but I love the zombie genre.
> 
> If you know you're smart, do the opinions of others really matter?


Not particularly. I actually preferred the 100-200 section of the library for most of my adult life. I've read hundreds of books from those sections: philosophy, psychology, metaphysics, etc. Reading nonfiction and reading literary analysis aren't particularly helpful in writing fiction. The thing is, I love writing fiction, so after finishing my degree at 37, I've had to play catch up in my reading. Not that I never read fiction. I just didn't read it as much. I also mostly read speculative, which doesn't pay as well. I've become a huge romance fan recently, and it's paying off.

I've just had this same conversation with a hurtful and snobby sibling so many times, repeating it on Kboards makes me nauseous. I'm holding back a panic attack, jk, and I think I'll go sit in the sun and read a trashy novel.

As an aside, my highly educated English professor sibling is currently unemployed an homeless. Intellectual superiority doesn't pay the bills.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> If you don't want to read the best of what went before you, then you are reinventing the wheel. And odds are you're going to do a bad job of it.
> Camille


Camille, I'm curious why you would say something like that? You don't know what books I've read. I said I hate Milton. I didn't say I hated all "classic" fiction. When I say classic, I mean the stuff they force you to read in English classes. That isn't Agatha Christie or Stephen King. Neither of those writers will be seen anywhere in a standard English degree program. I also stated I would be better off reading books than I am with my English degree.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

alf said:


> Camille, I'm curious why you would say something like that? You don't know what books I've read. I said I hate Milton. I didn't say I hated all "classic" fiction. When I say classic, I mean the stuff they force you to read in English classes. That isn't Agatha Christie or Stephen King. Neither of those writers will be seen anywhere in a standard English degree program. I also stated I would be better off reading books than I am with my English degree.


I think you are making something very personally that has nothing to do with you personally. First, you assumed a very strict definition of 'classic' that had nothing really to do with the context of the discussion. Then you turned the whole thing into a fight between intellectualism versus populism, completely with a swipe at your own relative who is homeless (classy!). But there was really no reason for you to interpret "classics" as "all that crap they forced me to read." Because as a writer you should really have a firm grasp of context. As Camille said, if you want to be a horror writer, you better have at least a basic knowledge of Poe and King and a host of other luminaries in that genre (which IS studied in a multitude of colleges, BTW. We read King in Contemporary American Literature back in college).

I only mentioned my degree because generally a degree means you have to read things you otherwise would not if left to your own devices. But I never said you NEEDED OH MY GOD MUST HAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a degree to write. I simply mentioned it for the purpose of context.



> I also stated I would be better off reading books than I am with my English degree.


And nobody said otherwise. In fact, I think the point both Camille and I are making over and over is that people SHOULD be reading books. Isn't that what I said fifteen times in this thread? But you know, I still stand by my statement that you need to read a lot more than the current Amazon bestseller's list if you want to be a good writer. I've read romances, even though I personally hate the genre, because I felt it was important to understand the methodology of the genre as a well-rounded writer. I've read westerns, even though I tend to find them boring, because I wanted to have a working knowledge of the genre and see if there were elements I could borrow for my own work.

The thing is, if you are writing well and selling well and all is right in your literary world, not a darn thing I have said in this thread applies to you and therefore there is no reason for you to be upset. If it doesn't apply to you, then it wasn't directed at you, and there is no reason for you to be upset. But my statements have been general observations directed at people who clearly are not writing well and not selling well and all is not right in their literary worlds and they are looking for solutions to the wrong problems. And I still believe most writer problems are resolved by simply reading more (not recreationally, but critically.)


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Julie, 

Yes, I spoke about a relative who has the same kind of critical language that I found in this thread. It makes me nauseous because it is so often used to put others down. And yes, that relative lost her professorship and is too good to work for a living so is now homeless. Perhaps it isn't "classy" to point that out. But I found it a valid point. Superiority doesn't pay the bills. My original post on this thread stated that reading is more important than reading about reading, which is what you do in an English degree program. Call that critical reading if you want to, but I personally find literary criticism fairly pointless. I find writing essays about literature pointless. When I went from social science to humanities, I was shocked at how insular that world was. You just quote some other essay to make your points. It doesn't pertain to the real world at all. 

If I'm talking about classics like Milton I don't see how someone could then jump to classics by a current genre author like Stephen King. That doesn't seem to be reading very critically, and the logic is completely off. It is obviously a different context. And when someone uses the pronoun "you" when quoting "me" I assume they are referring to me. But you can believe I'm must an oversensitive idiot if that makes you feel better about yourself. 

How well are you selling to dole out advice like this in such an abrasive way?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Poe has been around what 100 years or so and Stephen King's Carrie just turned 40.  I do not think either would be considered current.  The fact that King is still read after 40 years says he knows a little something about writing.

Someone please check my Poe accuracy as I am on a tablet and not a full computer.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

dotx said:


> I guess when I'm loving the actual story, I don't even notice the tense.


Yeah, this is it for me, too. If the story and writing is so good that the tense (past or present) is transparent, then it's totally fine.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

alf said:


> How well are you selling to dole out advice like this in such an abrasive way?


Well enough that I recently raised the rates on what I pay out for the Quarterly, placed an ad to hire an assistant, paid out almost a $1000 in prize money for my annual writing contest. Well enough that I've been invited to be a guest at various conventions over the years and given seminars on craft. Well enough that I was invited to be a judge for the Ben Franklin Awards for the last three years. I've been publishing since 2004 and make a profit every year. And while I don't publish full time, that is a personal choice (I enjoy my day job and get compensated very well). And being gainfully employed gives me the freedom to publish non-commercial projects for the joy of it without worrying about profit.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

This thread is getting a little... tense.

Get it, huh? _Get it?_


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> This thread is getting a little... tense.
> 
> Get it, huh? _Get it?_


*shakes head*


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *shakes head*


Good move ... a VERBose response would've been risky.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

alf said:


> Not particularly. I actually preferred the 100-200 section of the library for most of my adult life. I've read hundreds of books from those sections: philosophy, psychology, metaphysics, etc. Reading nonfiction and reading literary analysis aren't particularly helpful in writing fiction. The thing is, I love writing fiction, so after finishing my degree at 37, I've had to play catch up in my reading. Not that I never read fiction. I just didn't read it as much. I also mostly read speculative, which doesn't pay as well. I've become a huge romance fan recently, and it's paying off.
> 
> I've just had this same conversation with a hurtful and snobby sibling so many times, repeating it on Kboards makes me nauseous. I'm holding back a panic attack, jk, and I think I'll go sit in the sun and read a trashy novel.
> 
> As an aside, my highly educated English professor sibling is currently unemployed an homeless. Intellectual superiority doesn't pay the bills.


I'm sorry to hear about your sibling's behavior.

~~~~~

My dad is a world famous University Professor at Harvard. He's a millionaire. He has over 40 honorary degrees. He was selected by Time magazine as one of America's 25 Most Influential People. He is a recipient of the National Medal of Science, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on.

Bottom line: If *anyone* has the right to be a snob, he does.

Yet, he's been asking me, *over and over*, when my book is coming out.

Seriously, Dad? My zombie stuff? 

~~~~

I'm thankful that someone like my dad supports my goals and dreams.

Do what you love, and as long as it's legal, *never* defend it or apologize.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

It is irritating to see people using their academic language to abrasively talk down to people on the internet about how to become a bestselling author when aren't bestselling authors themselves. Better to take advice from those who are.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

alf said:


> It is irritating to see people using their academic language to abrasively talk down to people on the internet about how to become a bestselling author when aren't bestselling authors themselves. Better to take advice from those who are.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> This thread is getting a little... tense.
> 
> Get it, huh? _Get it?_


I don't think you can get any cooler LeeBee lol. I'm glad I wasnt drinking.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

I used to have a lot of issues with present tense. I could not read a book written in it. I picked up The Hunger Games ten times or more and put it down after the first few pages because I couldn't stand the tense. It seemed so simplistic and childish, and read like stage directions instead of a story. I couldn't lose myself because the tense stood out in almost every sentence.
Small children say, "I pull on my boots" and "I go to grandmas" and "I say I like ice-cream" - instead of "I pulled on my boots", "I went to grandmas" and "I said I liked ice-cream."

One day I forced myself to keep going with that book, and eventually, yep, the tense disappeared (and great story  ). I can read present tense now without a hitch and yes I would write a novel using it. But I can remember how hard it was to read and don't blame people for not liking it and not wanting to read it.

One of my beta readers was having lot of issues with a particular chapter of mine - to her the guy sounded childish but she couldn't explain why. I changed it twice and she still didn't like it. Eventually, I worked out why - this character's passages were written in present tense, unlike the rest of the book. First person present tense is common now in YA. I do wonder if things swing back to past tense in the future, if the present-tense novels of today will seem strange to readers (although there are of course such novels written decades ago that are still being read today).


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

von19 said:


> I don't think you can get any cooler LeeBee lol.


I plan to test that theory. 



> I'm glad I wasnt drinking.


Odd. I wish I _were_ drinking.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

alf said:


> It is irritating to see people using their academic language to abrasively talk down to people on the internet about how to become a bestselling author when aren't bestselling authors themselves. Better to take advice from those who are.


I'm confused. When did this craft thread become about "how to become a bestseller?" At what point did the discussion turn to "how to be a bestseller" as opposed to the merits of the first person tense? Frankly, if your definition of quality is solely based on what is a bestseller, I fail to see how that makes you any different than the trade publishers who, as it is ALWAYS pointed out by indies, "only care about bestsellers." Snookie had a bestseller at one point, Alf. Perhaps we should all go talk to her for writing advice. 

Coming back to the original subject, the first person present tense is sort of trendy in certain genres right now (as others have noted, particularly YA and NA). But it can be distracting in other genres where the conversational tone can get in the way of the story. With a mystery, for example, the story is less about being "friendly" with the narrator than it is the whodunit. With a thriller, the first person can take away some of the suspense (unless you set the story up just right, the reader knows the "hero" isn't at risk of dying since he is narrating.)

There has also been some research that we "read" present tense faster. Which is fine if your plot is very fast paced and you are trying to create a sense of urgency. But it can cause a mental disconnect at those moments when you are trying to work on other aspects like character development or setting. The more complex the story, the more likely the present tense can trip up readers and push them forward too fast.

So again, ANYTHING can work if you are a good enough storyteller. But you have to understand the norms of the genre, the expectations of the readers, and do things in the best interest of clarity for the story.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Now I _really_ wish I were drinking.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Frankly, if your definition of quality is solely based on what is a bestseller, I fail to see how that makes you any different than the trade publishers who, as it is ALWAYS pointed out by indies, "only care about bestsellers." Snookie had a bestseller at one point, Alf. Perhaps we should all go talk to her for writing advice.


I am just a humble stay at home mother who would prefer not to end up on welfare if my marriage dissolves. Since I cannot possibly be Snookie, I don't think her advice could possibly be helpful in keeping me off food stamps. People who do make a livable income off their fiction writing, however, have better advice to give than all the English majors in the world combined, or people who write as a hobby. That advice might be to write trashy nonliterary smut stories you'd never show your mother. Yes, money is what matters to me. Sorry if that makes me like an evil traditional publisher. I fail to see how a woman like myself could ever be compared to one, however.

Usually, I am not so abrasive, but I'm having a situation at home that could lead me to being on food stamps with my two year old. I don't need a replay of the time my sister stormed out of my house saying I should have my degree revoked because I used Wikipedia.

I acquiesce this thread to those far finer minds than my own.


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## Micah Ackerman (Feb 16, 2014)

> I fail to see how that makes you any different than the trade publishers


Wow, those are fighting words.

Micah


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I can't even follow the arguments anymore. But then, what I know about craft could fit on the head of a pin. Yes, I'd read my genre a fair amount, and read voraciously, period, all my life, but I didn't know what "HEA" meant until I got a review with that in it and looked it up. (I did know my books needed happy endings. Not from reading the rules, but because it made sense.) I couldn't tell you anything "about" fiction writing, but I think I know how to write a pretty satisfying novel all the same. 

Not saying it's bad to study this stuff. Not at all. But I don't think you necessarily HAVE to be some kind of student of writing to write. In fact, I think there's an argument to be made that you can suck the life out of your story trying too hard to write according to all the rules, tick all the boxes. (Not talking about grammar rules here. Those, I'm pretty inflexible about.) 

It's interesting to me that my reviewers often seem to read a whole lot more analytically than I do when I read genre fiction for pleasure. I just know if the story caught me up or not, whether it moved along for me, whether it touched my emotions, and whether I liked the characters. I worry mostly about those things in my own writing. If it's a story that worked for me (and, to a lesser but important extent, my beta readers), that's my own best test.

Anyway, time for me to stop reading this and get to work.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Whoa. I step out of this thread and there are people here arguing that making lots of money doesn't automatically make you right and other assertions that don't line up with the the Gordon Gecko School of Ethics?

Am I on the wrong board?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I have heard first person narratives all my life. Lots of very good story tellers use first.

_Im sitting in this little cafe joint. You know? Locals from the feed lot and a waitress doing a crossword? Im eating my pie, minding my own business. And this guy walks in with a parrot on his shoulder and a string of jinglebells in each hand...._


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

alf said:


> Camille, I'm curious why you would say something like that? You don't know what books I've read. I said I hate Milton. I didn't say I hated all "classic" fiction. When I say classic, I mean the stuff they force you to read in English classes. That isn't Agatha Christie or Stephen King. Neither of those writers will be seen anywhere in a standard English degree program. I also stated I would be better off reading books than I am with my English degree.


Holy Moly.

I realize that sometimes people don't realize that "You" is also an indefinite pronoun, so let's try this again in formal language for clarity, shall we? The quote you responded to:

"If one doesn't want to read the best of what went before, then one is reinventing the wheel. And odds are that one is going to do a bad job of it."

Does that make it clearer? That "you" didn't mean _you personally_?

Camille


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

let's all lighten up here. Seems like the thread has gone a little off course. Let's not take offense where no offense was meant, and let's not make personal comments about each other. Be kind.

I _am_ drinking, by the way. *hic*

LeeBee, nice pun.

Behave now...off to read through some more of the prior posts...

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Ceinwen (Feb 25, 2014)

I naturally write in present tense because I'm so used to doing it in scripts. It's my default setting now, so I have to really concentrate when I write in third or it slips back in. But I do legitimately enjoy reading present tense, whatever the genre. I can see why some people think it reads as 'childish,' but for me it ups the intensity and suspense. I'm right there, in the middle of the story. 

As for POV, I read and write both. I think it depends on how much of your story can ride on your protagonist (if you don't have a changing POV). I don't think it works as well in series' - using Hunger Games as an example again, I think the last book in particular suffered from the limited POV when Katniss became a less active character - but in standalone I think it works well to tell a small, contained story. Especially if you have an engaging character with an interesting voice. 

My two cents. I'd absolutely read a mystery in first person present if I liked the character and the story kept me guessing along with him/her.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

P.J. Post said:


> Um, not that anyone asked anyone's asking, but I loved love Milton.


Yay!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Robert Reade said:


> People probably told J.K. Rowling not to write in present tense too, but she ignored them and wrote the Harry Potter books how she wanted to. Just remember that whatever you decide to do, you need to own it.


Um... the Harry Potter books are written in third person past tense. Unless I have gone somewhat mad and slipped into another universe. (It could have happened. It would explain a lot.)

Maybe you meant one of the recent NA series?

Camille


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Probably one of the books that became Generic YA Dystopia Films 2, 3, and 1 (Part 3) coming out this year.

And no, I'm not knocking the genre, in general, just look at those trailers. They're the same movie three times!

In the future... everything will be blue or desaturated green.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2014)

I loved_ Divergent_. Kudos to fellow Chicagoan Veronica Roth and to her mega success.

Sure there are people who dislike her books, but do they matter? No.

Veronica Roth has found her readers, and they are the ones who matter.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> Probably one of the books that became Generic YA Dystopia Films 2, 3, and 1 (Part 3) coming out this year.
> 
> And no, I'm not knocking the genre, in general, just look at those trailers. They're the same movie three times!
> 
> In the future... everything will be blue or desaturated green.


Hope you're not intending to imply Hunger Games, here.

The story in Book/Film 2 has only some of the same trappings, up to a point, but quite different resolutions. In fact, the second film was one of the better "second book/film of a trilogy" installments in quite some time... maybe going all the way back to the original Star Wars trilogy. Far better than Back to the Future 2, that's for sure.

Most second-installments-in-a-trilogy suffer from feeling like they're "all middle," (yes, even Tolkein's The Two Towers, IMO) but I felt satisfied by Catching Fire.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

P.J. Post said:


> To the OP...write it in first person present.
> 
> See, a new fan right there. That was easy.
> 
> Um, not that anyone asked anyone's asking, but I loved love Milton.


It's fine to love something. It's also fine not to. What isn't fine is assuming everyone must read archaic ancient texts in order to be a successful author. Should everyone on WC be required write a 1000 word essay on the themes in Paradise Lost so they can be allowed to continue writing? Nope, not going to happen... It ISN'T required reading. You DON'T "have to" understand it. You don't "have to" read it. You don't "have to" appreciate it. 
What you do need is a grasp of how to use the English language and knowledge of the conventions of your chosen genre. You need to read enough to understand story structure and pacing. You don't need all the stuff you learn in an English degree. I have the right to say that my degree was largely a waste of time and money in making me competent to succeed as a genre author, without people jumping down my throat for it. If I'd invested the same amount of time and money into my writing career, I would be leaps and bounds ahead of where I am now.

Get a library card.

There's a fantastic clip from Good Will Hunting about this that I'd link, but I don't know how to link video clips.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Disagree, especailly with the sequel thing: X-2, Spider-man 2, The Dark Knight (Superhero films tend to bog down in origin story in the first movie, then really make use of the genre's strengths in the second, then explode in a fireball of executive meddling for the third), and Terminator 2


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

You're talking movies that are superhero things. I'm talking about books, primarily, made into movies.

Sent from my LG G2 Android Phone.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Just throwing this out there: I LOVE well-done present tense. Absolutely love it. Not all readers hate it. Write the book the way you feel it needs to be written. No matter what you do with it, some readers will hate it.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

LeeBee said:


> This thread is getting a little... tense.
> 
> Get it, huh? _Get it?_


Sounds like the present and past walking into a bar.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

CraigInOregon said:


> You're talking movies that are superhero things. I'm talking about books, primarily, made into movies.
> 
> Sent from my LG G2 Android Phone.


Well, I mean they _are_ books. The serial nature and sequential are does not remove the fact that's they're still literary adaptations.

It also does not absolve the green and blue vomit all over the prints >_<


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> Well, I mean they _are_ books. The serial nature and sequential are does not remove the fact that's they're still literary adaptations.
> 
> It also does not absolve the green and blue vomit all over the prints >_<


Oh, I've been a comic book geek most of my life.

But it's a very different storytelling form compared to novels.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> What isn't fine is assuming everyone must read archaic ancient texts in order to be a successful author.


People tell us all kinds of requirements for authors. They declare proper division of labor, cost of editing, production systems, pricing, reading history, attitude toward reviews, use of adverbs, and position on alien lifeforms. We hear about writer status, where businessperson, hobbyist, amateur, professional, and non professional all circle each other.

But market success is measured in sales, not self-identity.


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## CarlSinclair (Apr 7, 2013)

It really depends on the genre/age group you're aiming at.

It seems that most middle grade and YA books (and some romance sub genres) have become standard 1st present. Or at least almost always first now.

Not so much in Epic Fantasy where it's still pretty much all Third.

I have to admit when I read the Hunger Games, at the first, I hated the present tense. It was jarring. Awkward and I thought lazy writing. I didn't even notice anymore around half way in the first book. By the end of the third I thought it was a great series. People do get used to it.

The one thing I do not like is multiple first person POV. The whole switching back and forth between two 1st pov's is just very very strange. It doesn't work and I wish people would stop it. That's just my opinion though.


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## JaroldWilliams (Jan 9, 2014)

I don't mind First Person, but present tense will make me throw the book.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2014)

ElHawk said:


> Just throwing this out there: I LOVE well-done present tense. Absolutely love it. Not all readers hate it. Write the book the way you feel it needs to be written. No matter what you do with it, some readers will hate it.


Perfect! 

~~~~

"Children are happy because they don't have a file in their minds called 'All the Things That Could Go Wrong.'" - Marianne Williamson


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## Joseph Turkot (Nov 9, 2012)

My best selling work is in present tense first person. It is a great challenge, and you'll become a better writer for having tried it and learned from it.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2014)

Elizabeth Darkley said:


> Hi *****! I'm curious, based on your experience as an editor and publisher, what are the common errors you see in first person / present tense fiction? I ask because one of my WIPs is in first person, present tense.


Insofar as first person, there are five common problems that I see. I've seen them so often that I actually wrote up an article about it. . To summarize: monologuing, over-talking, boring narrator, mind-reading (omniscient narrator), unclear audience (who is the narrator talking to?). Generally, as I mentioned earlier, present tense itself is not so much the problem per se as that is shines a big spotlight on other problems. If your story is tight and well-constructed, the present tense is fine. But if there are other flaws in the construction, the present tense is going to make them stand out.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2014)

Joseph Turkot said:


> My best selling work is in present tense first person. It is a great challenge, and you'll become a better writer for having tried it and learned from it.


Yes, I find it much harder to write in first person/present than third person, for example.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Insofar as first person, there are five common problems that I see. I've seen them so often that I actually wrote up an article about it. . To summarize: monologuing, over-talking, boring narrator, mind-reading (omniscient narrator), unclear audience (who is the narrator talking to?). Generally, as I mentioned earlier, present tense itself is not so much the problem per se as that is shines a big spotlight on other problems. If your story is tight and well-constructed, the present tense is fine. But if there are other flaws in the construction, the present tense is going to make them stand out.


I read your article. I'm confident I'm on the right track with first person/present tense. For example, the mistake of the "omniscient first person narrator" or the "mind reader" is a mistake I would never commit.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

P.J.s post is a good guideline, though I disagree in some key ways. (See below.)

First, for the most part, the problem with 1st/present is one of two things.

1.) The one least important (because it's out of your control) but also likely the most common reason people hate it: it really magnifies the character's flaws, so if your reader doesn't really identify with the character immediately, it will turn her off and make her run screaming.  So if your character is whiny or weak or indecisive -- all the things that you may want to show about your character early on so she can grow later -- we REALLY get to know this if you're using 1st/present.  Same thing happens if you put your character through a gruelling opening.

This shouldn't affect your main audience, as they will be people who identify with the kinds of characters you write and kinds of situations you put them in.  It will affect mainly the people who are more ambivalent. (And the people who are likely to hate your characters and situations will eventually run away anyway, so who cares?)

2.) The biggest mistake that is under the control of the writer is writing present tense with all the same rules as if it were past tense.  (Which is where I disagree with P.J. in some places.)  You can't just write the same sentence in present tense and past tense.  It's a whole different voice.  Or actually, it's TWO whole different voices: it's either stream-of-consciousness or it's oral narrative. (You can go back and forth from one to the other, but you can't do them at the same time.)

Oral narrative -- telling the story -- is easier, but it has different rules.  The narrator is telling the story afterwards, and therefore is omniscient. He or she can indeed comment on all sorts of things he or she wouldn't know at the time.  However, a good storyteller doesn't telegraph his or her ending, and is likely to hold back most of such information.  Basically this mode is similar to 1st person past, except that it will be chattier.  That is, we often relate stories in present tense -- it's how we tell jokes.  Past tense gives more a feeling that the story is being written down, and more carefully composed.  

Stream-of-conscsiousness is tricky to write, and you do indeed have to follow P.J.s rules and more.  You aren't just limited to what the character knows at the time, you are limited as to what the character is conscious of at the time.  So if a character is blindsided, then the audience is blindsided. (This is one of the reasons you don't see it much in suspense - because it's harder to set up twists.)

The trickiest part of stream-of-consciousness is that it leaves the audience blind.  If you only get to experience what a character is experiencing NOW, then you don't get explanation and exposition.  A character is not going to stop and think about everything they know, or about their background.  You can do that in oral narrative, but you can't do it in stream-of-consciousness. (If you try to do it in stream-of-consciousness that "breaks" the experience -- rather like head hopping.)  But you can compensate for that by doing as much as possible to make the situation self-explanatory.  Make good use of discussions and the kinds of problems the character would be thinking about.  (If the character is trying to work out a problem, she will be thinking about everything related to the problem.)

Stream-of-consciousness doesn't have to be taken to extremes, though. It's kind of like writing in super-tight third.  (As a matter of fact, back in the 1940s a lot of writers were experimenting with third-person past stream-of-consciousness -- that was often too tight for my tastes, but it had the same effect whether done in 1st or 3rd, so it shows that you can use the same techniques as tight 3rd, imho.)

IMHO, no matter what you choose, the biggest issue, ultimately, is the character.  I suspect that, as you develop and come to understand your character and his or her voice, THAT will tell you what sort of technique to use.  Some characters are hard to get across without specific techniques.

Camille


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Frankly, I have a bigger personal beef with second-person than with first.

Of course, I read a lot of first-person hard-boiled mystery authors growing up.

But any book that keeps telling "You enter the maid's living quarters and struggle to keep down your lunch at the squalor-like state in which she keeps her own home after decades of keeping yours spotless" makes me wanna hurl... brings out the rebel in my... makes me wanna rebel against the narrative voice and say, "$(## you! Oh, no I did not!"


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

CraigInOregon said:


> Frankly, I have a bigger personal beef with second-person than with first.
> 
> Of course, I read a lot of first-person hard-boiled mystery authors growing up.
> 
> But any book that keeps telling "You enter the maid's living quarters and struggle to keep down your lunch at the squalor-like state in which she keeps her own home after decades of keeping yours spotless" makes me wanna hurl... brings out the rebel in my... makes me wanna rebel against the narrative voice and say, "$(## you! Oh, no I did not!"


I have only once seen a good use of second person, and in retrospect it probably would have been invisible in a full novel -- because the overall story was in first person past.

What this guy did was have his narrator start by explaining what it's like to be throne in jail. So "you" is indefinite. It was implied that the first sentence would be "If you got arrested..." then on to the "They drag you down a hallway slick with sweat..." stuff. It's immediate, but that's because you hear the guy's voice, and it ended with a transition into his own experience. "...and you wonder how you got there. I got there by helping helping a friend. Just like you're supposed to...."

That, though, is not the same as telling a whole story in second person -- it's telling the story in first person past tense, and the narrator is using whatever tense is appropriate to what he's trying to convey.

Camille


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

You can actually have different levels of closeness to the narrator's immediate state of mind in first person POV.  On one extreme is a stream-of-consciousness.  On the other is a frame story, with a narrator from a much more emotionally and chronologically distant place who is not only retelling a story but reflecting on what was happening with their emotional distance from it as well as what they now know is going to happen.

Neither are wrong.  They are simply different.

Similarly, there are different levels of tightness with third person.  My third person is extraordinarily tight when it comes to personal interactions.  But when it comes to description, there is a more distant voice that takes the emotional feelings of the characters and is freer with it than how they would exactly describe things.

I personally take a middling view with my first person POV, but somewhat closer to the first than the second.  There is a narrator's voice that's slightly more mature than the person in the moment, but I don't do narratorial foreshadowing ("Little did I know that," etc.), and I do a heavy dose of direct thought.  My current POV character has a MUCH more limited vocabulary than I do at all levels of closeness, though, and a much more limited knowledge of most things that ordinary people don't know but I do--names of architectural styles, historical periods, literary references, etc., etc.


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## Marie Long (Jan 11, 2014)

I used to hate first-person-present tense. But now, since I've started reading and writing it, I'm strangely hooked...


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Marie Long said:


> I used to hate first-person-present tense. But now, since I've started reading and writing it, I'm strangely hooked...


Word-play, just for amusement, nothing more:

I used to hate _crack_. But now, since I've started _buying_ and _using_ it, I'm strangely hooked...

Giggle away... it's that time of night/day for me...


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

SevenDays said:


> If the story and writing is so good that the tense (past or present) is transparent, then it's totally fine.


Agree. Most writers just aren't good enough to pull it off. It feels like a thumb jabbing in my eye. I _have_ to stop reading because it doesn't feel good.



Becca Mills said:


> Julie hasn't *(on this thread)* articulated anything like the careful types-of-reading distinction you're making. I just read back over her posts, to see if I'd jumped the gun and been unfair, but the only possible suggestion of your idea I see in her posts is the phrase "read deeply within your own genre." That's a pretty thin hook on which to hang the above ideas. [emphasis added]


For context, read Julie's genre clinic thread. It's really clear that there are people writing fantasy who haven't read much fantasy. People sometimes think they've written something new and amazing, when actually someone else already wrote it. Example: Elves on motorcycles. Emma Bull ('90s), Mercedes Lackey ('80s?), and I think John Ford's and Wen Spencer's elves ride motorcycles but I don't remember for sure. Those are just the books that I can remember without deep thought.



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> At the end of the day, if you are talented enough to pull it off then anything can "work." But then it becomes a question of being honest enough at evaluating your own skills to know whether or not you are that talented. How many authors around here have truly taken full stock of their weaknesses? Do you know what your weakness are and are you working toward improving them? ACTIVELY working to improve them and not just adopting the "keep writing and you get better" mantra? Because if you don't know what your weaknesses are, writing more simply sets into habit all the things you do wrong and doesn't make you a better writer. If you believe 2+2=7, writing that eight hundred times won't suddenly make you right. You'll just be wrong 800 times.


Gosh, yes. I'm afraid I'm writing myself into a rut. I console myself with the thought the books in the trilogy will be consistent, but the next book I'm going to have to change things up.



Vaalingrade said:


> Whoa. I step out of this thread and there are people here arguing that making lots of money doesn't automatically make you right and other assertions that don't line up with the the Gordon Gecko School of Ethics?
> 
> Am I on the wrong board?


Amazing, isn't it?


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