# Nothing works. (By which I mean none of the little piddly marketing things work)



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

NOTE: edited my original post because it sounded like a cry for help, but I'm doing okay, and I meant it as a *phooey *to *piddly *marketing *busywork*.

Paid advertisements = flush your money down the toilet or, if you find some advertising that works, they'll jack up the price weekly until it's no longer worthwhile, or they'll be booked until 2015.

Social media, i.e. tweeting, blogging, interviews = kinda fun but zero sales.

Select freebies must hit POI/ENT and 10k downloads minimum per day, or even these freebies aren't worth doing.

As of today, I'm going to just say NO to marketing busywork that makes you feel like you're doing something when you're not.

Another EDIT:

Here, I MADE A CHART! About what matters and how much it matters:










This is my totally subjective opinion.


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## Bone Bard (Aug 1, 2012)

I thought you liked free and $0.99 readers? 

Your third from last sentence summed it up. You keep writing. That's all you can do.
You ship. That's what artists do. And you price better than $0.99, but that's
just me.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Bone Bard said:


> I thought you liked free and $0.99 readers?
> 
> Your third from last sentence summed it up. You keep writing. That's all you can do.
> You ship. That's what artists do. And you price better than $0.99, but that's
> just me.


Yes, the ONLY THING that has helped my sales has been the FREE promotions. I love the free readers. I do sell a few more of two of my books at 99cents, but the earnings are so meagre. It's a tough call between .99 and 2.99.

Also, NO FAIR USING MY WORDS against me when I'm having a tantrum-y day!!


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## That one girl (Apr 12, 2011)

Can I join in your tantrum? 

I agree that until you write a book that catches on, nothing really works except Select--and that's only marginal. My bump is already disappearing and my freebie only ended three days ago. Have you considered going perma-free on any of your titles? I'm going to make No Shelter perma-free once it's out of Select on September 11.


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

I agree that it's getting harder and harder to stand out.  I think it's mainly because the pool expands more and more every day, more books, more demands on advertisers (as you noted) and ...  Well, thank goodness we get more out of writing than just the money.  Hang in there!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

T.S. Welti said:


> Can I join in your tantrum?
> 
> I agree that until you write a book that catches on, nothing really works except Select--and that's only marginal. My bump is already disappearing and my freebie only ended three days ago. Have you considered going perma-free on any of your titles? I'm going to make No Shelter perma-free once it's out of Select on September 11.


I've got 3 (out of Select) books on Kobo, one free, and I'm trying to get one perma-free on Amazon. No luck yet. The book's not doing me any good on Amazon's servers (we're talking 150 sales total for 2 books), so I figure why not.

I do have two books selling, so I'm trying to calm down and learn what I can from those, but even those sales are directly attributed to Select Freebie days, and they just fall down,down,down until the next promo.

"Trad" publishing is starting to look more appealing. I probably should have queried my last book instead of putting it out myself. ARRGH I SUCK! Nobody take advice from me, ever. I don't know why I keep giving it.



Paul Clayton said:


> I agree that it's getting harder and harder to stand out. I think it's mainly because the pool expands more and more every day, more books, more demands on advertisers (as you noted) and ... Well, thank goodness we get more out of writing than just the money. Hang in there!


I'm considering moving my efforts over to my other pen name and doing more romance with sex, even though it feels like starting over. I'm too old to keep reinventing myself. I'm not Madonna!


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## Iwritelotsofbooks (Nov 17, 2010)

I hear you.  But I'm two years in with 30 titles and one hasn't caught on.  Luck has more to do with success than anything in this industry, and the one thing you have no control over.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

My romances aren't selling worth squat right now. It definitely seems a lot harder to get noticed than it used to be. The only thing that's really keeping me afloat right now is erotic romances, so I'm focusing on them. I agree that getting your name out there by writing more is the important thing, but I don't see anything wrong with querying agents, either. I'm still a believer in keeping eggs in more than one basket where possible.


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## teashopgirl (Dec 8, 2011)

Yes, I've felt this way. *hugs*  This is a tough gig. I just gave away almost 7,000 copies of my new title and sold 2/rented 3 since the promo ended Thursday night. Sigh.

I've been reading kindleboards since December-ish, and the one message I've heard loud and clear is "write more." I admit there is no way I'm going to put out a high quality novel several times per year, however. It's just not going to happen because writing Notes to Self required me to open too many emotional veins in my soul. (melodramatic much? Yes.). I believe the answer is non-fiction titles, novellas, novelettes and short stories. 

And...go! (Maybe start your sexy romances as shorts and see what happens?).


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## That one girl (Apr 12, 2011)

{{{hugs}}}

I know how you feel. I felt like giving up last week and sometimes, in my darkest moments, I still think of querying, but (and no matter what you've read from Hugh, this is NOT bullsh*t) I honestly think you have what it takes to write something that will connect with readers on a cellular level. 

If you want to try querying again, do it. I don't think my psyche could take it, but there's certainly nothing stopping you except the desire to get your book into readers hands sooner rather than later. You never know unless you try, and it seems like not knowing if you've done the right thing is eating away at you, just a little.


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## Romi (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree that Select was very marginal for me, success wise. Once I got out of Select and once (after three weeks of price-matching attempts), I made book one in my series free, it appeared (and still appears) as the one thing that works without dying away, in terms of helping along the sales of book 2 (one ENT mention in that time helped as well). And I am happy to keep making book 1 free, because that helps me confidently price book two at $3.99 (maybe $4.99 one day, when I'm brave enough).

The perma-free thing has also helped me get respectable sales for book 2 at Barnes & Noble, Kobo and iTunes. Maybe 1-2 sales a day on those sites isn't huge, but I just feel better about being at more than one retailer. I guess writing contemp romance may help too, but that's just what I've always written, I wouldn't really know what else to write at this point.

I guess what I'm saying is, the only thing that I know worked for me was...writing a series and getting out of Select   .

Also, I feel for your rant Dalya, and also I've read your advice on here before and nodded my head yes!


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## Alan Ryker (Feb 18, 2011)

I totally feel you. It's very, very frustrating.

I've decided to go hybrid. Horror fans are actually very publisher-conscious. They're loyal to the few publishers of quality horror. So when Darkfuse approached me, I jumped. Hopefully the readers will try my Darkfuse published books, and continue on to my indie offerings. Besides having the marketing funds, they've also got a popular book club which means guaranteed sales. 

I won't know how effective this plan will be until November, but I really feel the game has changed over the past year and going hybrid has some big advantages.


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

It's a question of perspective.

Are you working to sell books, or to grow a reader base?

Most of us are growing a reader base.  That takes time.

Now and then, someone has the knack of selling books.

Very very rarely, someone is growing a reader base and the reader base goes BAM and grows overnight.

Mostly, it's slow, steady plod.  One. Reader. At. A. Time.

Time.  

It takes time: the secret ingredient.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

JRHenderson said:


> Dalya, have you considered following Tattooed Writer's and Bilinda's example by quickly penning some short stories and getting them out there? It would increase the chances of exposure for your other titles. Just an idea.


Shorts is a good idea. I thought I was penning quickly with the books in under a month each. 

Then I would HAVE to move up my prices on the novels so the shorts didn't look the wrong price by comparison.

Craft-wise, I've got my head so much into novel-length stories that I don't even know if I *can* write a short story people will find satisfying. <-- that is my fear talking.

Thank you for the sound advice. I will add it to my list of things to ponder instead of freaking out on a hot Saturday for no reason.



EllenFisher said:


> My romances aren't selling worth squat right now. It definitely seems a lot harder to get noticed than it used to be. The only thing that's really keeping me afloat right now is erotic romances, so I'm focusing on them. I agree that getting your name out there by writing more is the important thing, but I don't see anything wrong with querying agents, either. I'm still a believer in keeping eggs in more than one basket where possible.


I think I could write erotic romance. I had to tone down some of my YA books because beta readers found it too sensual. I could do that under the other pen name. I've never tried it, so I can't say I wouldn't love it just as much as the other stuff I write.



teashopgirl said:


> Yes, I've felt this way. *hugs* This is a tough gig. I just gave away almost 7,000 copies of my new title and sold 2/rented 3 since the promo ended Thursday night. Sigh. ...


Yes. It's either 20k or it doesn't even matter. I've noticed this with my own 7k freebie promos. Nothing.

@TS - yes, rejection emails make me feel like an asshole

@ Romi - yes to series. No to writing book 2 in a series that isn't selling. From now on, I'm being more cautious and putting out a stand-alone that could have series potential, but I'm not going to commit to a series unless there are some sales/readers.

@ Alan - ah, if only anyone would have me. Oh, but I'd have to query and sign those horrible contracts all the Big Fish say are terrible.

@ Morgan - you're so sensible. I bet you had decent sales today.


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

Alan Ryker said:


> So when Darkfuse approached me, I jumped. Hopefully the readers will try my Darkfuse published books, and continue on to my indie offerings. Besides having the marketing funds, they've also got a popular book club which means guaranteed sales.
> 
> I won't know how effective this plan will be until November, but I really feel the game has changed over the past year and going hybrid has some big advantages.


Congratulations Alan! Hope it goes well for you.


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## Quinn Richardson (Apr 20, 2012)

EllenFisher said:


> It definitely seems a lot harder to get noticed than it used to be...





teashopgirl said:


> I just gave away almost 7,000 copies of my new title...


Anyone else see a cause-and-effect relationship here?

(meaning the availability of free books in general, muddying the water.)


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Thanks for the pep talks. I think it's been less than a month since my last    poor me I'm upset post. I'm really hogging up the poor-me air.

I meant my post as sort of a mega-answer for all the "does xyz work?" posts.

I'm still writing. Another book is due in October. I may alter my other plans and make the next one a romance, or I may put up some hot fireman calendars around my desk and start writing those erotic porkswording shorts.


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## teashopgirl (Dec 8, 2011)

That's a good point, Quinn. Definitely. *goes to look for the gin*


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## teashopgirl (Dec 8, 2011)

dalya said:


> erotic porkswording shorts.


Hehehehe


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Quinn Richardson said:


> Anyone else see a cause-and-effect relationship here?
> 
> (meaning the availability of free books in general, muddying the water.)


ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT, the Select freebie program has pooped in the swimming pool. Oh, absolutely. Free has torn the bottom of the cheapie market. Absolutely.

But what are we supposed to do? Engage in a sort of slut-shaming campaign to force all authors to unionise and stop giving away free books?

Each individual author benefits from doing a free run even though the group at large suffers from the oversupply of free books. However, the individuals do not act in the interest of the group as a whole. (I know there's a term for this.)

As individuals, there's nothing we can do, except make ourselves suffer to prove a point, and hope others do the same. Or hope somebody changes the rules. I theoretically love the environment, but I drive a truck.

@ Alan -- I should look at smaller presses!


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## Alan Ryker (Feb 18, 2011)

Morgan Gallagher said:


> Congratulations Alan! Hope it goes well for you.


Thanks! It started as a 1 book contract, but was quickly followed by a 6 book deal. So 4 novels and 3 novellas over the next 3 years.

Dalya, too true on the contract thing. I don't know if I would have signed one of these 15%, lose-rights-forever contracts the vets talk about. Darkfuse has a 2 year rights reversion (regardless of sales) and 50% royalties. They got into the e game years early and have been quicker to adapt than most publishers, but I'd bet a lot of other small publishers have better terms than the big 6. Darkfuse is very big in horror, which means they're small.


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## Quinn Richardson (Apr 20, 2012)

dalya said:


> ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT, the Select freebie program has pooped in the swimming pool. Oh, absolutely. Free has torn the bottom of the cheapie market. Absolutely.


I don't think there's anything we can do about this, but I suspect that at some point Amazon might work out a way to reduce the backlog. They don't want Kindles full of free stuff either. That's like a drug dealer watching people smoke tobacco in the crack pipes he gave them.

I don't like to use the derogatory "slush pile" term to describe the existence of free content, but it really feels that way right now.

I'm sure good work will rise above it all in time, but it is impossible to predict how much time that will take.


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## Remington Kane (Feb 19, 2011)

It's sad, but I believe it's also true that it comes down to luck, or fate, karma, whatever you want to call it.
That's why I think it's so important to love what you're doing.
I love writing. The money I make from it is all gravy.
And luck is like the weather, it changes.
May your luck change to nothing but blue skies Dalya.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

T.S. Welti said:


> ...and no matter what you've read from Hugh, this is NOT bullsh*t...


What? Me? Bullsh*t? 

Dalya: More virtual hugs. And the thing I always told myself was that I did this because I loved it. When my sales crash to zero, I'll keep doing it. I think we write our best stuff when we are rolling around in our own words, happy as pigs in mud. At least, that's true for me. If I sit down to write something that I think will sell, it won't.

I like someone's suggestion for writing more short works. And break the mold, whatever you do. Write something shocking.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2012)

Time to promote adult videos Dayla, I made $400 before I woke up


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

@ DONALD - you love writing? I love having written! I think I love writing once the first wave of nausea passes when I open my document. Just nerves, I guess.

@ HUGH - I could probably be more shocking, though there are branding issues since I write some family-friendly stuff ... I guess I need the freedom of another name.

@ The Universe -- ha ha very funny. Just now, you made somebody buy a copy of the middle-grade novel I spent a month finishing and half-regretting the entire time because I know nobody's buying MG novels. Thanks.

@ Sicklove -- okay, but not my left side. My right side's better on-camera.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2012)

dalya said:


> @ HUGH - I could probably be more shocking, though there are branding issues since I write some family-friendly stuff ... I guess I need the freedom of another name.


Why, who's going to judge you? Why do you need the freedom of another name?

I'm going to release my own sex tapes to promote my book, if anyone tries to criticize me I'll just call them prudes and sex-negative and move on with my life.


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## FH (Jul 30, 2012)

Get your books out in paperback form, order a few dozen copies and get a stall at some event where lots of MG's will be. Go and sign copies.

Nothing makes you feel more like a proper author than sitting behind a desk with a bunch of books stacked high and getting real cash money for something tangible.

Kindle and EBooks is a weird bubble - we obsess over 99c price points, giveaways, reviewers and bloggers but I genuinely do not think there is anything more satisfying for a writer than signed your name in the front of your own book and handing it over to someone in return for good old fashioned paper money.

I also think print copies helps you to value your work as a writer, when you see a tangible product like a stack of your books and people handing over 10-15 USD for a copy you realise not everyone is just out looking for free or 99c cheap reads and thinks everything we do is worthless.

Sold 10 copies  down my local pub last night. People still love a signed book even if they have never heard of you. because you could be the next JK Rowling and they might get to Ebay it for 5 times the price.

Renting a stall in your local shopping mall… there are tons of your readership out there who will probably buy your work, offer some free copies to a local school's reading group, offer to do a reading….etc


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## That one girl (Apr 12, 2011)

sicklove said:


> Why, who's going to judge you? Why do you need the freedom of another name?
> 
> I'm going to release my own sex tapes to promote my book, if anyone tries to criticize me I'll just call them prudes and sex-negative and move on with my life.


Please post your link when they're ready.

Dalya: I don't think trying the pen name for some sexy shorts is a bad idea. My only fear is that it's not what you really want to write.


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## Hilary Thomson (Nov 20, 2011)

For what it's worth, I hear from other authors that this time of the year, late August, is the absolute worst for sales.  Most people have come back from summer vacation and don't have as much free time to read, and students are preparing to go to school.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Maybe I'm the only one, but finding out nothing works was a great relief to me since I didn't want to do any of it. Even if it did work, the odds are high I wouldn't do it. I avoided traditional publishing years ago when I found out what was involved. Finding a pro like Dean Wesley Smith who advises that it doesn't work and to just keep writing and putting out more (good) books was an even greater relief. Now I can not do what I don't want to do and what I probably wouldn't do under any circumstances and point to someone with many years of experience for a theory for my self-indulgence.

Like you Dalya, I don't like writing - at least the first draft - but I do like having written. So the 1,000 new words a day theories also have helped me, although right now I'm finding out I'm not capable of just starting a new story the day I finished one while the finished one is still up in the air as to editing, etc., which will modify the 1,000 words a day 50 five-day weeks a year theory down considerably.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2012)

martinfreddyhansen said:


> Nothing makes you feel more like a proper author than sitting behind a desk with a bunch of books stacked high and getting real cash money for something tangible.


You're a closeted hustler, a book pimp. I like you.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2012)

T.S. Welti said:


> Please post your link when they're ready.


Maybe Betsy will setup a NSFW forum for me


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## AmberC (Mar 28, 2012)

You know my thoughts on this darlin. 
If you are selling any books you are a success in my book. You are an author. The real, genuine thing. Today's a rough day. Total chowderbucket fest. The sun will come out tomorrow. Keep breathing and keep writing.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

T.S. Welti said:


> Dalya: I don't think trying the pen name for some sexy shorts is a bad idea. My only fear is that it's not what you really want to write.


Oh, I don't even know what I want to write anymore. I want to write everything, try lots of genres. I want to write a sci-fi novel!

Perhaps writing shorts is a good option for me, as I can try more ideas from my idea-pile without taking a month to develop a full novel.

I think I could be a wicked erotica writer, though my characters may make jokes at inappropriate moments. I'll have to reign them in. Or not.

I guess I can't say "nothing works" because I haven't tried everything yet. Haven't tried shorts. Okay then!



Sweetapple said:


> You know my thoughts on this darlin.
> If you are selling any books you are a success in my book. You are an author. The real, genuine thing. Today's a rough day. Total chowderbucket fest. The sun will come out tomorrow. Keep breathing and keep writing.


Heheh. Yeah, it's just been a silly week.

And I have that ENT ad in December. Always look on the briiiiight side of liiiiiiiife!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Dalya: I don't think trying the pen name for some sexy shorts is a bad idea. My only fear is that it's not what you really want to write.


Nothing wrong with using a pen name if you have a good reason to (otherwise it's kind of a pain to keep your identities separate). If you think you might like writing sexy shorts, then go for it. My suggestion would be to read some first if you haven't, though.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

i have to chime in on the short story advice. i've been telling myself i need to quit writing short stories because i can't sell them. i love to write them, but i think i need to quit and get busy with a new novel. in the past six weeks i uploaded 4 short-story collections and several individual stories. my latest single short (6,000 words) went up a few days ago and has sold one copy — and i'm pretty sure i know who bought it. my novels do fairly well, but short stories are a tough sell.  really tough.


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## JRLeckman (Dec 22, 2010)

I actually have a rather foolproof plan that is guaranteed to make money.

Step 1: Stalk celebrity who constantly posts to twitter with thousands of followers.
Step 2: Steal celebrities phone.
Step 3: Tweet about your book.
Step 4: Replace phone before loss is noticed.
Step 5: Profit.

I believe this mission will entail the use of a small motorbike, three hundred feet of fishing line, a tuxedo, and maybe even a trained sugar glider. Also, the following tweet will be used (with spelling and grammar adjusted to reflect celebrities intelligence level):

"wow, [insert book here] is the best thing i've read in a long time, lol rofl lmao" #bestbookever


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## FH (Jul 30, 2012)

JRLeckman said:


> I actually have a rather foolproof plan that is guaranteed to make money.
> 
> Step 1: Stalk celebrity who constantly posts to twitter with thousands of followers.
> Step 2: Steal celebrities phone.
> ...


also.

www.omegle.com - talk to strangers.

type in subject - book, chit lit etc. chat box opens to strangers.

Stranger: Hi!
You: Buy my book. blah blah blah amazon URL.
Stranger: No.

DISCONNECT

Stranger Hi!
You: Buy my book. blah blah blah.
Stranger: No

DISCONNECT

Stranger: Hi! ASL
You : 17, female, california. porn star.
Stranger: Are you naked?
You: Yes
Stranger: Want to webcam?
You: Only if you buy my book. amazon URL
Stranger: if i buy your book will you webcam?
You: Yes
Stranger: one minute.
(Confirm purchase on KDP)
Stranger: I bought your book. 
You: Thanks
STranger: Webcam
You: Sorry i don't have one. enjoy the book!

DISCONNECT

Stranger: Hi!
You: Buy my book. blah blah blah
Stranger: Whats it about?
You; ZOMBIES
Stranger: don't like zombies.
You: It's like 50 shades of tray.
Stranger; I'll BUY IT!!!!

DISCONNECT

BTW if anyone does try this, please please please cut and paste your convo's on a new thread.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Anne Frasier said:


> i have to chime in on the short story advice. i've been telling myself i need to quit writing short stories because i can't sell them. i love to write them, but i think i need to quit and get busy with a new novel. in the past six weeks i uploaded 4 short-story collections and several individual stories. my latest single short (6,000 words) went up a few days ago and has sold one copy - and i'm pretty sure i know who bought it. my novels do fairly well, but short stories are a tough sell. really tough.


Okay, I'm getting a psychic vision. It's me, four months from now, posting that short stories don't work. 

I think the advice is to write short, SEXY stories, though. Like with fireman abs on the cover.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

dalya said:


> Okay, I'm getting a psychic vision. It's me, four months from now, posting that short stories don't work.
> 
> I think the advice is to write short, SEXY stories, though. Like with fireman abs on the cover.


ah! yes to the sexy. mine aren't sexy in the least.


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## Danielle Kazemi (Apr 2, 2011)

dalya said:


> Okay, I'm getting a psychic vision. It's me, four months from now, posting that short stories don't work.
> 
> I think the advice is to write short, SEXY stories, though. Like with fireman abs on the cover.


Or since you write for MG, it would be short, angsty teenage romances. Like: 
Girl: "I can't be with you because you're a senior and I am just a lonely freshman."
Boy: "No, I love you."
Girl: "Oh Johnny!"

Maybe make one of them a vampire, werewolf, dinosaur man, etc.


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## JRLeckman (Dec 22, 2010)

martinfreddyhansen said:


> also.
> 
> www.omegle.com - talk to strangers.
> 
> ...


This. So much this.


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## Rachel Schurig (Apr 9, 2011)

I've had these days, absolutely. I'm sorry! Please rant and vent away!



dalya said:


> @ Romi - yes to series. No to writing book 2 in a series that isn't selling. From now on, I'm being more cautious and putting out a stand-alone that could have series potential, but I'm not going to commit to a series unless there are some sales/readers.


Not to try and mess with your plan, but my series didn't take off _at all_ until they were *all* out. If I would have declined to write the series until the first one had proven itself with some sales, I never would have written the series or had any success. As far as free goes, I've seen the most post-free sales for the rest of the series, not the first one. Having several books out to discover after your free run kind of negates the need for a post free bump on the free title. I've been noticing Romi's perma-free book for a while and have been wondering how it's working for her. I think Lillianna Hart does perma-free to great success. I'm very interested in this.

I feel like a chump trying to give advice because my sales seem like such an inexplicable, lottery win type of deal. But reading your posts lately two things come to mind:

1. Part of me LOVES that you want to write so many different kinds of novels. YA, MG, erotica romance, Sci fi? That's awesome that you have so many stories to tell. I feel like something has to catch on for you and your drive kind of blows me away.

2. The other part of me wonders if maybe you're trying too many things. Too many genres, too many experiments. Maybe you should you stick to one genre for a while and really focus on it...

So basically, I am of two minds. I don't know anything and you shouldn't listen to me.

...BUT wait! I do know something! Practice Cake was one of my favorite indie books I read this year. It's really, really good! You are a *good* writer! And funny! And you write FAST! These are all good things and all things that lead me to believe that whatever you do, you're going to get there eventually. I hope it's as fast as you would like.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

Nothing works but...word of mouth. That seems to be the ugly truth. Well, I guess it's not so ugly. But I've realized that getting people to talk about your books is really what sells them.  However, I do think advertising and marketing helps raise awareness about your work and can get the ball rolling. Don't worry Dayla, it's just a bad month. I think it's been rough for many of us in terms of sales.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I think the advice is to write short, SEXY stories, though. Like with fireman abs on the cover.


Short, SEXY stories with abs do sell. Wellll... some of them do. But for me, at least, they really have to be sexy. My hottish Ellen Fisher shorts aren't moving much. My erotic stuff does better.

Still, results vary and all that. You can't really extrapolate from anyone else's experiences.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

It's August. It's dead zone month. Everything will start to sparkle again in September. I've never been more certain of anything in my life.  

Now, back to clinging to that slowly unraveling rope.


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

martinfreddyhansen said:


> Get your books out in paperback form, order a few dozen copies and get a stall at some event where lots of MG's will be. Go and sign copies.
> 
> Nothing makes you feel more like a proper author than sitting behind a desk with a bunch of books stacked high and getting real cash money for something tangible.


I sell more paperbacks to ebooks by multiples.

(By me, I mean. I've sold far more personally, than all the other sales combined - all ebook sites + paperbacks on all sites.)

Mind you, I make a pittance per book, by paperback, compared to ebook. It all comes out in the wash... at this point, I prefer sales to profit, as each sale is part of the building the reader base.

Come back in ten years, then I'll see where I am!


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2012)

EC Sheedy said:


> It's August. It's dead zone month. Everything will start to sparkle again in September. I've never been more certain of anything in my life.


This.


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## Thomas Watson (Mar 8, 2012)

> ...but my series didn't take off at all until they were all out. If I would have declined to write the series until the first one had proven itself with some sales, I never would have written the series or had any success.


I actually expected this, going into it. Book one for me has sold all of 22 copies since its release in June. I'm not worried or obsessing over promotion because I have no expectations of success for that book on its own. Years ago I worked for bookstores (B. Dalton, back in the '80s, Borders before their big slide began.) Book one of anything by a new writer rarely sold well, if at all, during the years I was stocking shelves. I assumed, for the sake of being realistic, that the same would be true in my case, and so have concentrated on getting books two and three out there.

We're all of us caught up in a flood tide of self-published books. Floods are always a messy business. Keep swimming, dalya!


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## Andykay (May 10, 2012)

You have pretty much summed up how I feel every second day, although I have less work out to anguishing over (a few titles under a pen name). I think part of the reason I haven't knuckled down and written something that I really want to yet is that I'm afraid of the huge amount of chance involved. It's scary investing so much time and love and energy into something when you have so little control over its outcome.

In any case, you are not alone, and judging by your figures and reception, you're an excellent writer. All you can do is try to leverage that and hope it's enough.


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## Bone Bard (Aug 1, 2012)

As was mentioned earlier. I think all the free stuff is muddying the waters,
and diluting the pool. By some accounts there are enough free books on
Kindles around the world that no one would ever have to buy another
one if they just went about sharing.

But more than this, it's devalued the pantheon to the degree that folks
have erroneous ideas about price.

And of course we can do something about it. We can stop offering ourselves
for free and start reeducating the reading public to pay for play.


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Dude, today royally sucked. My cousin lost his fight with cancer and I'm stuck here 2200 miles away.  So I've been writing and trying to help ppl with stuff most of the day. *shrugs*

A suggestion - change the way you think of sales. With kindle sales, ONE PERSON MATTERS. One mouth, one reader. That's all you need. Does a $50 ad pay for itself? Maybe. Maybe not. Did it add one new reader? Did they like your book enough to recommend it to others? That's how my stuff has grown. One person matters.

The other things are:
Make it easy to find you
Make it easy to buy your books
Make it easy to find out what books come next

I just got a review from a die hard fan. She docked me two stars b/c she wants a 5 book series in 1 book for 2.99. I like her and Im glad she liked it and told me what she wanted. Im also glad Im writing it the way I am. If I shoved the DEMON KISSED series into one book it would have been over 500K words. That kinda creates practical problems... like printing it.  And eating, since it'd be $2.99 and I'd be butt-poor.

Im drifting. Anyway, do one thing at a time, be patient, and keep writing. Talk to your fans and assume things will work out. They have to work out for someone, so why shouldn't it be you?


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

> I want to write everything, try lots of genres. I want to write a sci-fi novel!
> 
> Perhaps writing shorts is a good option for me, as I can try more ideas from my idea-pile without taking a month to develop a full novel.


Sexy, short, SF Stories!! Yes please. I would buy them.


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## cdvsmx5 (May 23, 2012)

The world needs a self-published alphabet crime series.  You up to that?


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

Over the past few years I've averaged about 50,000-70,000 words a year, releasing one new novel every 18-24 months.

This year I've already released three novels, and have two more ready to go. I wrote 30k in June, 50k in July and I've written 80,000 words in the past 14 DAYS, occasionally hitting 10k a day. (I set up a laptop in another room, with no internet connection.)

Writing and releasing more stuff, trying new genres ... that's the only way to build an audience. I have 20+ titles out there, and won't be happy until it's 100+

PS social networking is a distraction ... it's not how I find and buy new books, and I don't expect others to either. Twitter, Facebook, etc, they're just make-work, and they're flooded with BMB posts anyway.


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## folly (Apr 1, 2012)

nothing to add. just wanted to say hang in there. your books are good, the covers are good,and people will find them.


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## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

Dalya,

I felt EXACTLY the same way today. Then I closed my computer and went dancing. Now I feel much better...except my back hurts. I'm getting too old for three and a half straight hours of dancing. Anyway, I've decided to completely give up on promotion and marketing. I used to budget about $400 a month for promotion and sometimes spend more. I would give away at least one kindle a month through my newsletter or blog. And you know what? No impact on sales. So I've decided to spend $0 on promotion from now until the end of the year. Instead, I'm concentrating on writing. I uploaded my 19th title yesterday and I'm aiming for at least four more by the end of the year. In 2013, I'm aiming to release a title per month. Crazy yes, but I feel I'll have more success than throwing away $400 a month at sponsorships and contests that don't work anymore.

I even considered trying to find another agent. But I already had one for four years and he couldn't get me published. Plus the thought of writing query letters again makes me sick to my stomach. I'd rather use that time to write another story.

And I might even try an erotic story. I really, really want to write one, I'm just afraid it will be really bad. Plus, I don't have a pen name for erotica. I'd have to think one up. And it's already hard enough trying to promote the two names I have now. Of course, since I've just give up promoting, that shouldn't matter, huh?


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## LovelynBettison (Aug 12, 2012)

This is a fascinating thread. I'm new to the forum and part of the reason I joined was to get ideas about promoting my books. Until now I've done almost nothing to promote. I feel like I can't complain about selling so little because I haven't even tried, but reading this thread makes me think that promotion isn't the super important thing that I thought it was. I don't have much of a budget for it anyway so I'm kind of relieved to discover this. I would much rather write than hang out on social media and try to figure out where to advertise my book. Writing is hard work but I love the results.


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## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

For a while, things did work. I remember the good old days when you could get a sponsorship with Pixel of Ink or Ereader News Today and sell 1000 copies of your book in one day. Now those places are booked up until 2015 or not taking sponsorships at all. I also remembered when Twitter had a measure of effectiveness. It still might, but you have to find your audience and tweet to them, not just to other authors. It's especially hard if you write Middle Grade like I do. I have over 1000 fans on facebook. Almost 800 followers on my blog and nearly 700 newsletter subscribers, but 12 year olds don't have the credit card. They have limited buying power. They also don't tweet. It is extremely hard to reach a middle grade market online. The only promoting I will be doing for the rest of the year is school visits. Those are very effective sales wise.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

I hear ya.

I've been plugging away for three years and can barely give stories away still.  Nothing I did seemed to work, and even people who promised to write reviews never did.

So I've decided not to bother or worry about it any more and just write.  maybe someday something will catch, but in the meantime I do the part of it I like, which is create stories.


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## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

(((((((( )))))))))


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## TLH (Jan 20, 2011)

August is tough. It's easy to feel like nothing works. We all feel that way. Focus on writing more. It's the only thing you have 100% control over.


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## Emma Daniels (Jan 21, 2011)

I think this thread applies to me too. My sales have gone south too, but I can't seem to write anything to try and kick start them again. My muse has also gone south. Big fat writer's block for weeks now. So I have been concentrating on my other hobby with the hope of earning a bit of money there for a while. And hoping like hell I have another book in me somewhere.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

It's a hard business. Hugs all around.

Then get out there and kick some butt.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

AHH I can't believe I almost slept through this thread!

First of all, no! Don't begin to doubt yourself. Practice Cake is good. Swarm is good! These are good books, damnit!

Also, secondly, August is sucking pretty bad for basically everyone with a few outliers (actually including me, it's on track to be my second best month! Which isn't saying much...). Don't stress.

That said, I think you hit it right on the head, you know. The biggest thing is to write more. Write moaaaaar. More books, more books, more books! Short stuff, long stuff, intermediate stuff, fanfic, erotica, sci-fi, romance, humour, whatever. Whatever gets you more potential sales per month is the bestest thing you can do.

IMO.

And you! No more doubting yourself!


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

It's obviously too late for me to be awake, because this is all I have gotten out of the thread:


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Discovery is very important in buying books. Recommendation is, also.

Discovery is finding out about something that you didn't know about, giving it a shot, and if you loved it, you go on to buy the thing again, eat at that restaurant again, read that author again, etc. This is accomplished by the free copies thing in most of our cases. No risk, no obligation. Just read. Keep going if you liked it.

Recommendation is reader reviews and word of mouth.

Other than that, don't expect much out of your promotional efforts. I've given away Kindles. I've given away all kinds of stuff. I did those things because I wanted to give back, not because they would result in sales. They garnered a few more sales, but not enough to pay for themselves. I was okay with that, though. All of that stuff is just to give back. Unless you're offering something highly coveted, it won't generate the huge interest and exposure.

For those wealthy ones, try giving away a Ford Mustang. You might get major media mentions over that, and something like *that* would be enticement to spread the word. "Did you hear about that one author giving away a car? Holy crap, man."


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

cdvsmx5 said:


> The world needs a self-published alphabet crime series. You up to that?


Oh, you're bad!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

What works?

Not advertising.
Not Twitter, Facebook or blogs.
Not reviews, especially not if you get all your friends to post 5 star reviews.

Freebies can work, but their effect is very short-term, and TBH, I find the necessary whoring debasement spamming, uhm, promoting very tiresome. I'd rather write.

What does work, I think:

Keep banging your head against the wall. Stick to your guns. Love your books. Don't appear desperate.
IMO too many promotions/99c books look desperate. There is a very distinct difference between people who want everything for free and people who will seek out something they like and pay for it. It's the latter ones you want, but they can be hard to find. No amount of changing your cover and/or blurb rewriting may be useful.

Giving away a 10,000-word short story that was the inspiration for my trilogy has been very useful. The story is perma-free across all platforms. I've given away 2000 copies on B & N and I'm sure that the increase in trilogy sales on B & N are attributed to that. I mean--I don't even know how to promote on B & N. I have an account on the nook forum, but it's borked and I can't post anything.

Other than that, I compare writing to having a career as a classical musician. You do not expect to employed in a symphony orchestra if you've played for three or four years.

Someone whose name I forgot said: it takes at least seven years to be an overnight success.

Writing is a long-term career thing and very rarely an overnight thing.

And another quote, from last week's morning tv (at the gym) where they showed an interview with Kenny Rogers, who is touring Australia. He said something like: the longer it takes you to get to the top, the more likely you are to stay there.

Yoda said: patience, Luke.


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## MJWare (Jun 25, 2010)

First, remember you are in good company--history is filled with fantastic writers that couldn't make a living wage from their writing (Poe and Twain are my two favs).

August is always slow, so thing will get better.

We are all in the same boat--though at this point, it's really more of a overcrowded life raft.

Free shorts, will help, but unless you get lucky, not by much. Maybe 1-2 more sales a day (by my estimates, your mileage may vary).

Like Sybil and others, I have decided most promotion is a waste of time. I did ZERO promotion for my best selling title, it's never even been in my signature and I don't even know why it sells so well. 

From now on, I'll send out some review copies (mostly ebooks only), post to social networks once in a while, but that's about it.
Oh, I will release more shorts, because: A. I like to write them. B. They do get you a few extra sales C. They really do help hone your craft.

Obviously, you are not alone; keep your chin up!


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> What works?
> 
> Not advertising.
> Not Twitter, Facebook or blogs.
> ...


Well, I've made all of those work at one time or another and more than one are working for me every single day. So, they work if you have the base and the right approach i.e. if you know how to use them. I said it before and I'll say it again...if marketing and promotions aren't fun, you're absolutely doing it wrong. If you're doing it right you're talking to people who love your stuff and you're making sales - how the heck can that be whoring, debasing, and spamming?

I'd rather write too, but I sorta like paying bills a little more. So I make marketing/promotions my favorite.

The secret to getting your snowball is to be everywhere at once. The problem is that this doesn't just happen. It takes months of planning. But what I continuously hear on KB is that people get started in promotions without a long term plan, then they get frustrated, then they give up.

I never give up and I never stop planning. Right now I'm planning blog tours, interviews, ads and freebies. For December. Also in December I have my yearly 12 Days of Freebies promotion for my other business. But before that there's Black Friday and Cyber Monday. And before that there's Halloween. And before that there's Back to School...well, that's right now.

So...how many of you have a back to school promotion going? Hmmm?

Who's got Halloween lined up? What are you doing for Black Friday and Cyber Monday? Last year I made three months worth of sales in ONE DAY. The I did it again on Cyber Monday. How about New Years? Hell, Groundhog Day could even work for some people.

I'm ALWAYS looking for new ways to do things, for example at least one day a week I scour the internet looking for guru tips or watch a webinar on marketing from some guru link I got in my e-mail. Every once in a while I start thinking I need new ideas and I head on over to the Warrior Forum's Private War Room. (That's where all the gurus hang out and give away free stuff to members of the War Room) I've been a member for a couple years now, so I get new ideas that way as well.

I do this because I like it. My current favorite guru is Joanna Penn at The Creative Penn http://www.thecreativepenn.com/. She's an Australian author who also excels at marketing. I really enjoy her tips and I signed up for her newsletter. Hell, I even shelled out 21 bucks for some little program she was selling called 21 Ways To Sell More Books Online http://www.thecreativepenn.com/sellmorefiction/

It was a very thorough explanation of book marketing. Some of which I already knew but it was organized into a coherent methodology that made sense, so I didn't mind the money.

If you want to be good at promotions it takes practice, it takes trial and error, and it takes time. (Hmm...sounds a little bit like writing...)

Joanna Penn has a LOT of free marketing tips at her site - why not just go take a look. Read up on it a little, then try one thing and see if you can make it work? http://www.thecreativepenn.com/marketing/


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Rachel Schurig said:


> ...
> So basically, I am of two minds. I don't know anything and you shouldn't listen to me.
> ....


ha ha! I know! And thanks for the compliment on my book, that's really cool to hear.  And makes me feel silly for these threads where I'm all whining. Yeah, maybe I'll "make it" whatever that means (swimming pool money), but it'll just take time.

I realize now that with my OP, it sounded like I was all "I quit! I'm quitting this writing thing!" but really what I meant was "All this various stuff like Facebook ad campaigns etc is bollocks."

I was talking to a very techie friend last night and he was telling me about the high level of fraud with bots and pay-per-click ads and all the people racking up the dough (google ads are bad, but Facebook ads are 1000x worse, he says), so he confirmed that the per-click stuff is bogus. He suggested teaming up with some hackers and paying people in bitcoin to do stuff, but I bet that'll fall under the "nothing works" category.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Sybil Nelson said:


> ... I used to budget about $400 a month for promotion and sometimes spend more. I would give away at least one kindle a month through my newsletter or blog. And you know what? No impact on sales. So I've decided to spend $0 on promotion from now until the end of the year......


Yeah. I think there's a big "cult of positivity" where we have to all be positive about how great everything is, but ... twitter? Please. And with some of the other things, we get lured in because they're free, but time isn't free.

I just wanted to call shenanigans on all the silly, silly things.

I was feeling optimistic about some paid ads, but when you don't even get two sales from the ad ... that sucks. By comparison, for $35-50, I can get an enormous batch of business cards printed and I can roll around on them in the middle of the street and make a spectacle of myself. It will do about as much good.

So, shenanigans on Facebook ads and blog tours and twitter and ads that aren't sold out until 2015 due to actually working. Shenanigans.

Two more books in my popular series, so they're out before Christmas and my December ENT ad, then I'll see what's up in January.


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## Remington Kane (Feb 19, 2011)

dalya said:


> I can get an enormous batch of business cards printed and I can roll around on them in the middle of the street and make a spectacle of myself.


I eagerly await the video of this.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

CONFESSION TIME!

I'm feeling very angsty today because I have a Women's Fic book out that got over 32k downloads in the last few days. And I'm terrified.

If the sales are good, that means I'll be switching over full-time to romance.

If the sales are bad ...


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

dalya said:


> CONFESSION TIME!
> 
> I'm feeling very angsty today because I have a Women's Fic book out that got over 32k downloads in the last few days. And I'm terrified.
> 
> ...


:O

You realize that 32k is more free downloads than I've gotten for my entire 10-ish books, all in Select, since January?

Like, holy hell! That's the equivalent of... like 3,200 sales in a couple of days!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

David Adams said:


> :O
> 
> You realize that 32k is more free downloads than I've gotten for my entire 10-ish books, all in Select, since January?
> 
> Like, holy hell! That's the equivalent of... like 3,200 sales in a couple of days!


Across all my books, I'm getting close to 200k in downloads.

I'd say it's all about the genre. Not just having it be a clear genre, but the specific genre. It should be romance.


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

Ya'll making me scared of the industry...


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

KJCOLT said:


> Ya'll making me scared of the industry...


It's FINE!!! Write 7 or 8 books, give away 200k copies for free, post on KBWC about 3,000 times instead of cooking meals or seeing boring non-writer friends and then ....

wait.

What's the end game again?


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

Sybil Nelson said:


> And I might even try an erotic story. I really, really want to write one, I'm just afraid it will be really bad. Plus, I don't have a pen name for erotica. I'd have to think one up. And it's already hard enough trying to promote the two names I have now. Of course, since I've just give up promoting, that shouldn't matter, huh?


Don't be afraid, just write it. The beauty with a pen-name is that it's just you and the story, and nobody else has to know.


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

smreine said:


> It's obviously too late for me to be awake, because this is all I have gotten out of the thread:


Tut.

Requoted it for you.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Update on Big-name-ification: I did sell a couple copies of my middle-grade novels in the last few days, so it's entirely possible my larger author name and a legible title on the cover is helping after all.

I like how they look, too, so I do recommend Big Author Name.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

dalya said:


> Update on Big-name-ification: I did sell a couple copies of my middle-grade novels in the last few days, so it's entirely possible my larger author name and a legible title on the cover is helping after all.
> 
> I like how they look, too, so I do recommend Big Author Name.


I made a big version of the Lacuna cover but honestly it doesn't look as good because my name is dumb and not cool like yours.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

David Adams said:


> I made a big version of the Lacuna cover but honestly it doesn't look as good because my name is dumb and not cool like yours.


We have some similar letters and similar length of name. So, I call [bullcrap]. You just need to find the right font.  Here, I'll do a new cover for you ...










I found this great font on my computer. It's called "comic sans." Doesn't the name alone just fill you with joy? I made it taller so it would fit the space better. That's a pro tip.


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## Richard Raley (May 23, 2011)

Free first book (price-matched far and wide) in my fantasy/paranormal series is working for me at the moment, so...there's hope I suppose, if only temporary hope  .

I am convinced that Twitter exists solely to prove how utterly meaningless I am to the function of the universe though.


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## Jeroen Steenbeeke (Feb 3, 2012)

dalya said:


> We have some similar letters and similar length of name. So, I call [bullcrap]. You just need to find the right font.  Here, I'll do a new cover for you ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think my eyes are bleeding. Must be the overuse of red. Can't be the font.


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## SuzieHunt (Sep 12, 2011)

dalya said:


> CONFESSION TIME!
> 
> I'm feeling very angsty today because I have a Women's Fic book out that got over 32k downloads in the last few days. And I'm terrified.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of authors used to write 'the books that paid the bills' under one name, and then the books they wanted to write under another name.

32k downloads - wow! o.o I think you should celebrate that!


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

I feel like that too. I uploaded my book onto Amazon about a week ago and since then I've plugged on my blog, facebook, forums, goodreads, twitter, had my reviewers post their reviews - which have been 4 and 5 stars... so far... 5 sales. :-l

It feels like a little whimper and a total downer. 

Oh well, I'd best just get my head down and write the sequel. Apparently having more books to your name help to increase sales.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I feel like that too. I uploaded my book onto Amazon about a week ago and since then I've plugged on my blog, facebook, forums, goodreads, twitter, had my reviewers post their reviews - which have been 4 and 5 stars... so far... 5 sales. :-l


Five sales in a week isn't bad at all, when it's your first book! A lot of the big sellers here started out with amounts like that. It takes a while to grow your audience.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> Five sales in a week isn't bad at all, when it's your first book! A lot of the big sellers here started out with amounts like that. It takes a while to grow your audience.


Thanks Ellen! I know you're right but it feels a little frustrating when you know how many people you've told about the book and the lack of conversions to sales. I think I have debut novel syndrome and expectations on too high! Haha!


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## GWakeling (Mar 23, 2012)

sarahdalton said:


> Thanks Ellen! I know you're right but it feels a little frustrating when you know how many people you've told about the book and the lack of conversions to sales. I think I have debut novel syndrome and expectations on too high! Haha!


THIS!

I'm still have debut novel syndrome and I'm six months in and about to publish books two and three!


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

I don't know how you get any writing done, my time is spent up checking sales every hour!


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## RenataSuerth (May 6, 2012)

Dalya,
here's my advice. I'm new to this. I published my first middle grade book in June and I haven't made it to the top 100 list yet. (ha, ha)
All this is new to me. You may recall how clueless I was about putting my annoying picture and book cover on kindleboars. I appreciate your advice and help with my kindleboards nightmare but enough about me.

There are too many writers and too many books. If you look at your writing as a hobby, seriously though, JUST a hobby, your whole outlook about all this will improve. 

I think of writing as baking (as opposed to cooking, which is a pain when you have 3 small picky kids). You measure and add and mix and then you throw it in the oven, lie down on the couch and eat bonbons. Essentially, you let the oven do the work and forget about it.

On another note, Hugh ( the wool or hemp guy) needs to stop telling us how great his book is doing. Just kidding, partially. I know it's wool.

WRITING=BAKING   WRITING=BAKING   WRITING=BAKING     REPEAT THIS ALL DAY AND TOMORROW YOU'LL FEEL BETTER.


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## brooksjones (Jun 6, 2012)

I've suspected for a while that all the social media stuff doesn't work, nice to see it confirmed by so many of you. What a relief! Yes, I agree that it's important to have appropriate web presences (an author website, an author page on Goodreads and certainly an author page on Amazon) but all the tweeting and Facebooking is by and large, a waste of time. Fine by me. More time spent on the next book then.

I think when we approach this (like someone else said) as building a reader base, and we realize that each freeload results in more also bought mentions on Amazon and more reader reviews, it's helpful. This is a marathon, not a sprint, and the cream (the good stuff--our books) will rise to the top. Besides: the ebook market hasn't reached saturation yet--so we're all ahead of the curve right now!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

TattooedWriter said:


> If selling a novel for 99c works for you, then use it. I am simply saying what *I* think when an author tweets that their amazing, best-thing-since-sliced-bread, loved-by-all-readers-of-the-genre novel is 99c. It lowers its perceived value.


As a reader, I have to say that when an unknown author tweets that their own novel is "amazing, best-thing-since-sliced-bread, loved-by-all-readers-of-the-genre," I don't believe it (sorry), no matter the price.

Betsy

_edited to stay on-topic._


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I have never bought a novel for 99c. I have, however, bought plenty for $25-40.


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## arvel (Jun 23, 2012)

I do very little promoting, because I simply just don't like it. Do I think promotion and marketing work? Yes, but over a long, long time. The closest I come to promotion is that I have a blog where readers can sign up for release notification, Facebook, and Twitter. I don't post regularly on FB and Twitter. All I do is post once when I have a new release and only once. Mostly because the few people who do follow me are following me so they can find out when my newest release is out. I have always found it annoying when people posted over and over again about their books, so I don't. 

What I have found that works the best for me is releasing another title. For me, the rest of it is exhausting and sometimes expensive. I currently work a full-time job and what little time I have I want to use to write, so that's what I do. So far it's working. I do it because I'm having fun and I get to have the freedom of writing whatever I want without someone telling me it has to be this way or that way. It's the best job on earth.


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## GWakeling (Mar 23, 2012)

I have to say that I DO think some social networking helps. I've managed to get some great sales with Twitter, with readers being able to not only tweet me to say they've bought the book, but also to provide feedback. I agree that it can't sustain huge sales and keep a book high in the rankings, but I'll never say no to a few more sales here and there. 

Saying that, I use Twitter obsessively so tweeting book links simply adds into my normal routine. Starting twitter from scratch just for book promotion requires a lot of time and effort which probably won't see huge dividends.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

RenataSuerth said:


> On another note, Hugh ( the wool or hemp guy) needs to stop telling us how great his book is doing. Just kidding, partially. I know it's wool.


Please, stop this, please. I'm a bit tired to see that kind of comments. Why not rejoice for a fellow Kindleboarder that is doing well?
The fact that he is and we aren't does not detract from our sales, does it? It merely points out it is possible.

If tomorrow it's your turn, would you want people to say: "please stop telling us about your book, you're such a bragging bore - AHA just kidding, partially"?

I don't know Hugh, I'm not taking his defense in particular. What makes me react is the way I feel sometimes we like to kick people down. I think it is unnecessary.
Many people who have had success here, defend the self-published, give generously tips for what has worked for them, seem to be held away by other people. It's not everyone, I'm glad to say.

I like to hear success stories. I like to hear tips. Hugh, if you read this, I forbid you to stop telling us how well your books are doing. And I'm not kidding, even partially! I'll ride a goat to your house with two orcs if needed to enforce this decision!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I agree that it helps, but #not in the #way of #tweeting #about #mybook #every #single #bloody #five #seconds

(cue in unfollow button)

People follow you if you provide entertainment. They remember your name. When they see your name pop up in the alsobots, they might bite.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

T.S. Welti said:


> I agree that until you write a book that catches on, nothing really works except Select--and that's only marginal. My bump is already disappearing and my freebie only ended three days ago. Have you considered going perma-free on any of your titles? I'm going to make No Shelter perma-free once it's out of Select on September 11.


Going perma-free is my latest strategy, because as the Dayla said, Select freebies only work if you're lucky enough to be picked up by POI or ENT and get more than 10k downloads, which happens maybe once every few months, if you're lucky. I've been experimenting with alot of paid advertising over the last couple of months and I'm sad to report it's all been a waste of time and money.


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I like to hear success stories. I like to hear tips. Hugh, if you read this, I forbid you to stop telling us how well your books are doing. And I'm not kidding, even partially! I'll ride a goat to your house with two orcs if needed to enforce this decision!


Here, here! Glad you spoke up Nathalie.

We're people in here, all doing what we like best - writing books.

But the people bit comes first!


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## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I'll ride a goat to your house with two orcs if needed to enforce this decision!


 I want pictures of this!


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## lorelei (Feb 25, 2012)

Hugh doesn't boast. He tries to encourage the rest of us.


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## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

lorelei said:


> Hugh doesn't boast. He tries to encourage the rest of us.


We're lucky he's still around.

Understandably, writers who make it big tend to drift away from KB as they get busier and have less in common with us ordinary indies. We should treasure the ones we've still got here.

*waves to Hugh in kind of an awed way*



Lexi


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## Jenmills (Feb 22, 2012)

brooksjones said:


> I've suspected for a while that all the social media stuff doesn't work, nice to see it confirmed by so many of you. What a relief! Yes, I agree that it's important to have appropriate web presences (an author website, an author page on Goodreads and certainly an author page on Amazon) but all the tweeting and Facebooking is by and large, a waste of time. Fine by me. More time spent on the next book then.


This pretty much sums up how I feel about social networking as a promotional tool.

Some readers may follow authors on FB or twitter, but it's likely they only do this after they've already become a fan and bought the books, so it's probably not so useful for attracting new readers. The exception would be authors who already have a large following before they release a book.

Ultimately, the most valuable promotional tools for an author are the cover, blurb and excerpt. These things matter more than anything else.


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## Richard Raley (May 23, 2011)

sarahdalton said:


> I don't know how you get any writing done, my time is spent up checking sales every hour!


You need to stop doing that...it's a bad habit to form . Unplug your computer if possible, fight! Also...stay away from slot machines.


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## Andykay (May 10, 2012)

sarahdalton said:


> I feel like that too. I uploaded my book onto Amazon about a week ago and since then I've plugged on my blog, facebook, forums, goodreads, twitter, had my reviewers post their reviews - which have been 4 and 5 stars... so far... 5 sales. :-l
> 
> It feels like a little whimper and a total downer.
> 
> Oh well, I'd best just get my head down and write the sequel. Apparently having more books to your name help to increase sales.


I'm just one guy, but it might make you feel better to know I think your book has an amazing cover and a very cool concept. It got me to read the sample, and now I'm considering a purchase, despite the fact that YA romance oriented plots aren't my thing at all. The coolness of the setting might just win out.

I think it'll do just fine once it's been given a little time to percolate.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

People keep perpetuating the same myths. The reason free runs don't work as well as they used to is because Amazon changed their algorithms. People don't judge the quality of a book by its price, they judge it by the reputation/brand strength of the author.

The reason why writing more books is the soundest advice is because building author brand/fanbase/reader-trust is the only sure way to sell books.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Andykay said:


> I'm just one guy, but it might make you feel better to know I think your book has an amazing cover and a very cool concept. It got me to read the sample, and now I'm considering a purchase, despite the fact that YA romance oriented plots aren't my thing at all. The coolness of the setting might just win out.
> 
> I think it'll do just fine once it's been given a little time to percolate.


Amazing, thanks!! Hope you enjoy it if you do decide to buy


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> I have never bought a novel for 99c. I have, however, bought plenty for $25-40.


Yes, but did you buy them because they were $25? And would you have not bought them if they were .99?


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## T. B. Crattie (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm new here, so I don't have a lot of methods and knowledge to share. But I do know that traditional publishing was a dead end for 99.5 percent of writers. I wonder how many fantastic writers were passed over in the past. And just gave up. From the brief time I lived in NYC, I found out that publishing is an old boys/girls network. Friends published friends and friends of friends and relatives.

At least with KDP a writer can get a work out into the marketplace, even though the marketplace is overpopulated and harsh. I suppose I'm just stating the obvious. Many of you seem to be, really, experts on indie publishing. You should make an indie publishing company, and choose the best and work on getting them sold. I wonder if someone has done this already.

Anyway, I'm impressed with y'all.

TBC
To Save the Realm


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

So back on the 'nothing works' track. 

I've noticed two conflicting statements on this board. 

1. In order to sell stories you need to work hard, market and get yourself noticed. 

2. Being successful is about luck. 


So if selling novels is likened to trying to predict weather patterns 4 weeks into the future, why are we trying?


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

TattooedWriter said:


> This is why I think tweeting about your book and mentioning it on your blog and FB don't work.
> 
> The people on those platforms at that time aren't looking to buy a book...they are there to read their Twitter timeline or talk to their friends on FB.
> 
> ...


I pay no attention to ads for books, especially ones like the above, whether they are banners or tweets. I'm just not interested at all. Unless--you can give me a real compelling reason to check out your book. Knowing the author is just banging their drum for sales is going to dilute that "compelling" reason to hype.

Usually companies use advertising to build and maintain brand awareness. Not to immediately sell their product. If you think your $50 ad should net you a $50 profit--you may be thinking wrong. To build awareness they will have a multi-ad campaign to do this--not one or two ads. Though retailers will try to push a weekly or limited time sale. "Buy your Chevy now before the Wham Bang Sale ends."

That doesn't mean you shouldn't advertise. Just don't have great expectations of people running to buy your book immediately.

There continue to be more books flooding the market and getting attention is more difficult. Here the mantra is to write more books. If 3000 writers each write 10 stories this year that's 30,000 more books to wade through. Not to mention more books to add to the free glut. It's like the blob that ate LA growing year after year. Somehow your book has to stand out when they are in the online bookstore as more books are constantly added. Maybe WOM or maybe display, but it will have to stand out even more in the future.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I like to hear success stories. I like to hear tips. Hugh, if you read this, I forbid you to stop telling us how well your books are doing. And I'm not kidding, even partially! I'll ride a goat to your house with two orcs if needed to enforce this decision!


I want an ALL HUGH, ALL THE TIME channel!


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

KJCOLT said:


> So if selling novels is likened to trying to predict weather patterns 4 weeks into the future, why are we trying?


Because we all suffer from the same disease.


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## T. B. Crattie (Aug 6, 2012)

I do know that traditional publishing didn't work for 99.5% of writers. From the brief time that I live in NYC, I found that agents and editors opened the gates primarily to friends, friends of friends, relatives, and graduates of well-connected writer programs.

At least with KDP, one can get a book out into the marketplace, overpopulated and brutal as it may be.

I'm impressed with the level of knowledge here about indie publishing. I wonder if there is an indie publishing company out there that chooses the best (matter of opinion, I know), and works to sell it. Should be such a thing. Many of you could certainly launch such a start-up.

Anyway, I'm always impressed with the level of knowledge on the boards.

T. B. Crattie
To Save the Realm


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## Alan Ryker (Feb 18, 2011)

KJCOLT said:


> So back on the 'nothing works' track.
> 
> I've noticed two conflicting statements on this board.
> 
> ...


First, I haven't noticed anyone say it's all about luck. But I've heard a lot of people say that after you've done everything right, then you still need to get lucky.

Fortune favors the bold. Or, if you don't buy a ticket, you can't win. Each book has a chance to be the lucky one that hits it big and brings the rest up. So if you get lucky with one book and sell thousands of copies, it's a hell of a lot luckier if you've got 10 more books those thousands can buy next. I've seen several people here hit it big too early with their one book and then fizzle because they were forgotten before they could follow up and capitalize.

I also get annoyed by the cult of positivity mentioned earlier in the thread, but I can't help but believe that eventually, if you put out enough good books, one will get noticed.


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## MGalloway (Jun 21, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> People don't judge the quality of a book by its price, they judge it by the reputation/brand strength of the author.
> 
> The reason why writing more books is the soundest advice is because building author brand/fanbase/reader-trust is the only sure way to sell books.


Good points. Being a reader, if I like an author's books enough, price does become less of a factor.

Building trust also seems to take a longer time in certain genres, too. Or at least it's taking a long time for me...


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

KJCOLT said:


> So back on the 'nothing works' track.
> 
> I've noticed two conflicting statements on this board.
> 
> ...


I didn't see anyone saying anything about luck.

I do think that's a cop out though, the ones who say that. It's an excuse to do nothing.

There's a saying I love, can't remember who first said it, but I think it's so true,

"The harder I work, the luckier I am."

I haven't launched yet, so have no idea what to expect, but I am in this for the long haul, so my expectations are low....I can only worry about the things I can control, which is writing more books, and making some effort to get the word out...seeing what works and doing more of it.

I do think Twitter has potential. I'm fairly new to it, for my writing and have a small following of only about two hundred or so, but it is growing steadily and I can see how people do get addicted. It's interesting to see how people are using it....some authors Tweet non-stop about their books, multiple times a day, sometimes even an hour so it totally dominates the stream.

But, other people interact more and what really gets my attention and has sold me several books so far, is when an author tweets someone else's book and says something like, 'just read this and LOVED it, great new author, suspense..." or something along those lines, so you know they liked it and what kind of book it is and there's a link to buy it.

With Facebook, I only follow a few authors that I either really love their stuff or know personally. I like getting the Facebook updates of where they are with their work in progress.....Jamie McGuire of Beautiful Disaster updates regularly with whatever chapter of the WIP she's on....it's fun and keeps the book on your mind.


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

Oh, it absolutely is "luck." But it is lucked shaped by circumstances. Anyone who doesn't think they are "lucky" to be writing right now and so easily being able to publish hasn't been doing this very long. We are all incredibly, incredibly lucky to be here right now instead of piling up form rejections the way most of us were doing 15 years ago, right when the industry turned the knob to "Suck" and only wanted auction-level bestsellers and celeb books (and, indeed, all foreign sales were driven by the U.S. advance--not the quality of the book--so the first advance pretty much determined a writer's entire career and there was no "long tail.") 

Unfortunately, we've been so drenched in the indie lottery-winner stuff, the level of which you cannot remove luck from the equation, that winning the lottery is almost the only way we can measure our own success. That's unfortunate, because we are among the very few who know better, and see the real opportunities for all in this fleeting digital era. But I believe talent is just another form of luck, as is the set of traits known as "persistence," and the list of character defects that allows one to sit for long periods of time and self-indulgently wallow in one's own brain. And timing is another form of luck--we'd be whining about different problems if we were writers from the 1800s.

Now, you still need to be struck by lightning, but you can hide away in a storm cellar or you can walk into the storm with a lightning rod. I've tried just about everything and I've been up and down and up and down and I still don't know what I've done right besides simply showing up and doing it.

I think we can pretty much agree that falling in love is "impossible," yet it happens over and over and over, and it's no less magical each time.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Lexi Revellian said:


> We're lucky he's still around.
> 
> Understandably, writers who make it big tend to drift away from KB as they get busier and have less in common with us ordinary indies. We should treasure the ones we've still got here.
> 
> ...


Ditto this.  Hugh is a brilliant writer, and I welcome all his fantastic announcements of new successes. Writing is a world of possibilities and it's great to hear about the big wins. Go, Hugh...

I'm learning so much from all the shared experiences with online promo. I don't do nearly as much as I _*should*_--the world's ugliest word, _*should*_, and I constantly feel guilty about it. I loathe Facebook and still can't navigate my way around it, mainly because I'm not inclined to learn. Twitter is pure fun, and I take it or leave it as the mood strikes, but I really don't think twittering and cheep-cheeping sells any books, for me at least. But then I consider myself still new at this crazy game, so I'm probably wrong about a ton of things.

What's worked for me--so far--has been Amazon's Select program and a couple of solid free runs that resulted in some sales and good positions on some lists. Will it work forever? Probably not. I'm going to test it again early in September.

All that said, I still would rather Amazon allowed us SALE days where we could discount a book for a given period and say something like: ON SALE for 2 days only--or some such. Much rather do that than add to the flood of free books.

Dalya--terrific news about those downloads. I do hope the sales follow. Let us know!


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## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

KJCOLT said:


> So back on the 'nothing works' track.
> 
> I've noticed two conflicting statements on this board.
> 
> ...


Those aren't conflicting statements. You need to write a damn good book, work hard to get it before eyeballs, and get lucky enough to have someone love it so damn much they want to run out and mug people on the street to tell them about it.

And we try for any number of reasons ranging from "It's the only thing I have wanted to do since I turned five and read the Rats of NIMH" and "Holy mother of god every day I spend in this cube farm is a day that a little bit of my soul dies."

Also, groupies.


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## Audrey Finch (May 18, 2012)

One thing for sure, marketing an ebook is a full time job.....
I agree with an earlier poster - the harder I work, the luckier I get.
I've been in the top 20,000 for a wee while yet, but have yet to see any real increase in (Amazon promoted) sales.  
I'll keep working away though


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## WilliamEsmont (May 3, 2010)

Gregory Lynn said:


> You need to write a d*mn good book, work hard to get it before eyeballs, and get lucky enough to have someone love it so d*mn much they want to run out and mug people on the street to tell them about it.


Here's a very recent example of just this phenomenon - A few months ago, I read Wool and loved it. I told a bunch of people, including my father, who doesn't normally read sci-fi. At first, he was hesitant, but I loaned him my copy and kept on badgering him. After a week or so, he finally read it and he loved it. Then something interesting happened.. I was talking to him on the phone a few days, telling him about_ I Zombie_, and asking him if he had seen it yet. His answer was "no, but I'm almost done with the Molly Fyde series. You should check it out."

Huh? My dad, the old-school David Baldacci/Tom Clancy/Nelson DeMille guy, is now reading sci-fi and enjoying it. The cool thing about the whole experience is that Hugh (other than writing a fabulous book) played no direct role in my dad becoming a fan. My dad's not on Twitter. He doesn't do Facebook. He watches network news and reads his email. That's it. Based on my initial prodding (prostelyzing?), and the strength of Wool, he's now working his way through Hugh's backlist. Amazing.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Unfortunately, we've been so drenched in the indie lottery-winner stuff, the level of which you cannot remove luck from the equation, that winning the lottery is almost the only way we can measure our own success.


I'll agree with this. I actually do pretty well and I have no business complaining. But the problem is I like to think I can do better. I suppose there's no shame in feeling that way, as long as it encourages me to try harder. The problem comes when we compare ourselves to others, and it causes us to throw in the towel. I agree that the "cult of positivity" can be annoying, but I would nevertheless encourage all of you to keep your chins up and keep slogging away.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

WilliamEsmont said:


> Here's a very recent example of just this phenomenon - A few months ago, I read Wool and loved it. I told a bunch of people, including my father, who doesn't normally read sci-fi. At first, he was hesitant, but I loaned him my copy and kept on badgering him. After a week or so, he finally read it and he loved it. Then something interesting happened.. I was talking to him on the phone a few days, telling him about_ I Zombie_, and asking him if he had seen it yet. His answer was "no, but I'm almost done with the Molly Fyde series. You should check it out."
> 
> Huh? My dad, the old-school David Baldacci/Tom Clancy/Nelson DeMille guy, is now reading sci-fi and enjoying it. The cool thing about the whole experience is that Hugh (other than writing a fabulous book) played no direct role in my dad becoming a fan. My dad's not on Twitter. He doesn't do Facebook. He watches network news and reads his email. That's it. Based on my initial prodding (prostelyzing?), and the strength of Wool, he's now working his way through Hugh's backlist. Amazing.


This is a great and powerful anecdote! The power in "word-of-mouth" is both fascinating and frightening at the same time.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

WilliamEsmont said:


> Here's a very recent example of just this phenomenon - A few months ago, I read Wool and loved it. I told a bunch of people, including my father, who doesn't normally read sci-fi. At first, he was hesitant, but I loaned him my copy and kept on badgering him. After a week or so, he finally read it and he loved it. Then something interesting happened.. I was talking to him on the phone a few days, telling him about_ I Zombie_, and asking him if he had seen it yet. His answer was "no, but I'm almost done with the Molly Fyde series. You should check it out."
> 
> Huh? My dad, the old-school David Baldacci/Tom Clancy/Nelson DeMille guy, is now reading sci-fi and enjoying it. The cool thing about the whole experience is that Hugh (other than writing a fabulous book) played no direct role in my dad becoming a fan. My dad's not on Twitter. He doesn't do Facebook. He watches network news and reads his email. That's it. Based on my initial prodding (prostelyzing?), and the strength of Wool, he's now working his way through Hugh's backlist. Amazing.


I'm fascinated by this. I get questions in most interviews about what I did to get recognized. I hate telling them the truth, which is that I feel mostly powerless about it all. It takes place elsewhere. Word of mouth is a chimerical and mysterious force. Why didn't my other short story of similar length, the one I promoted more, do better? Because it didn't resonate with readers, I suppose. And how in the world do we write stuff guaranteed to resonate with readers? I'm not sure we can.



EllenFisher said:


> I'll agree with this. I actually do pretty well and I have no business complaining. But the problem is I like to think I can do better. I suppose there's no shame in feeling that way, as long as it encourages me to try harder. The problem comes when we compare ourselves to others, and it causes us to throw in the towel. I agree that the "cult of positivity" can be annoying, but I would nevertheless encourage all of you to keep your chins up and keep slogging away.


Agreed. I spent years working in a bookstore while writing on the side (and I expect I'll be doing this again one day. Maybe soon). While shelving those "lucky lottery winners," I would wonder why my books weren't selling better. When the reps came and told me about the exciting new book they were promoting, I'd want to show them my book and ask what was wrong with it.

But I also had something else going on: I was still a writer who was able to complete works that people read and loved. Creative writing students would come and hang out and talk shop. Teachers would have me come speak to classrooms full of aspiring writers. I went and talked to a middle school a few times, the general assembly and then a few literature classes. I did a writing workshop with them another day. When these kids came to the university for Model United Nations, they would come through the bookstore and gab with me about reads, my books, and make me feel like a celebrity. I went to my writing group twice a month, sold books at craft fairs, and felt like a writer, if not an author (I still don't feel like an author).

And what I learned with these variety of experiences is that I can compare up or compare down. This is something I learned decades ago, actually. Instead of looking at the latest hardback getting all the press, I thought of the students who looked up to me, the aspiring writers still trying to get through that first draft, and I felt lucky. Successful. It's all about degrees and where we look for validation.

I worked on yachts for a long while, and no matter how big my owner's boat would be, we would pull into a marina with a larger one. I'd dock up a 115' yacht, three decks, five bedrooms, a hot tub, jet skis in the boat's fold-down garage, $20 million dollars, and there'd be a 150' boat in the next slip. And the owner would gaze over there and talk about how he really needed a bigger yacht.

Meanwhile, people were gazing up from the wharf in complete awe of this floating castle. But my owner never saw them at all.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

dalya said:


> @ Alan -- I should look at smaller presses!


I was going to suggest this, but someone beat me to it. 

I edit and do covers for a couple of small presses, and I've had conversations with my friend/senior editor/art director (all one person) about the advantages that can be had from going small press with some of your stuff, rather than putting it all up on self-publishing platforms. Based on these conversations, I've come up with five points in favor of going hybrid with a well-respected small press: 1) There's a vetting process for the story to be accepted -- someone chose to spend money to edit and publish it, which gives it credibility; 2) A good press gains a reputation which can help get the books it publishes into the hands of reviewers; 3) Small presses don't need to see Twilight-level sales to be satisfied -- they're far less likely to cut a mid-list author loose after only a book or two; 4) Having your book showcased on the new release page of a small press is just one more place to get noticed; 5) Some small presses do help with advertising efforts, so the author isn't totally alone in the struggle.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Lexi Revellian said:


> We're lucky he's still around.
> 
> Understandably, writers who make it big tend to drift away from KB as they get busier and have less in common with us ordinary indies. We should treasure the ones we've still got here.
> 
> ...


I don't leave forums. I'm banned from them.

*waves to Betsy in a slightly paranoid-sort-of way, similar to how I wave to cops even though I know I'm not doing anything wrong, but you never know, they could be in a bad mood and hate the cut of your jib and just decide to give you the permanent ouster just for the helluvit*


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## WilliamEsmont (May 3, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> I worked on yachts for a long while, and no matter how big my owner's boat would be, we would pull into a marina with a larger one. I'd dock up a 115' yacht, three decks, five bedrooms, a hot tub, jet skis in the boat's fold-down garage, $20 million dollars, and there'd be a 150' boat in the next slip. And the owner would gaze over there and talk about how he really needed a bigger yacht.


Not really on topic, but I spent the summer between my junior and senior year of high school working in a boat yard, sanding and varnishing masts on old wooden sail boats. Of all the jobs I've had over the years, that was probably the best preparation possible for writing. Sand. Varnish. Sand. Varnish. Sand. Varnish. Sand Varnish. Notice an imperfection, start all over again. All for $3.75/hr, or whatever minimum wage was back in 1986. I hated it at the time, but it sure taught me the discipline to keep working at a project until it's done, no matter how large it seems at the outset.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Has anyone tried this yet? Seems like an inexpensive, grass roots way to promo. You put flyers or posters up with a picture of your book cover and scannable bar code so they can instantly access and download a free copy of the book. Wonder if it would work for paid too?

Here is an easy way to share digital books with readers in the real world, link to article on Galleycat/mediabistro http://t.co/Tqx7BH6c


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

WilliamEsmont said:


> Not really on topic, but I spent the summer between my junior and senior year of high school working in a boat yard, sanding and varnishing masts on old wooden sail boats. Of all the jobs I've had over the years, that was probably the best preparation possible for writing. Sand. Varnish. Sand. Varnish. Sand. Varnish. Sand Varnish. Notice an imperfection, start all over again. All for $3.75/hr, or whatever minimum wage was back in 1986. I hated it at the time, but it sure taught me the discipline to keep working at a project until it's done, no matter how large it seems at the outset.


I have respect for anyone who can varnish. It requires absolute perfection. Every flaw is glaring. I was horrid at it.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I worked on yachts for a long while, and no matter how big my owner's boat would be


See, now you're just giving David ideas for that 50 Shades of Hugh fan-fic!


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Zelah Meyer said:


> See, now you're just giving David ideas for that 50 Shades of Hugh fan-fic!


THIS ^^^


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2012)

scottnicholson said:


> Unfortunately, we've been so drenched in the indie lottery-winner stuff,


I think this line of thinking extends to promotions as well. ENT has blown things so far out of proportion in terms of marketing that people are starting to think that's the norm: spend $100 on a Book of the Day spot to make $1,000 and sell 500 copies. Does anyone have any idea how rarely something like that exists in the world? Things that look that good usually turn out to be Ponzi schemes!

I do hold on tight to my marketing money, and I expect results from whatever I'm paying for. I usually look at most advertising as sort of a giveaway, except you're getting paying customers as opposed to freebie collectors. I won't think twice about jumping at an opportunity or regret it for a second if there's only say, a 25% percent loss from the original expenditure. The problem is when there's no return whatsoever, which either means I was foolish and didn't properly research what I was getting into, or the site somehow misrepresented what they were offering. Fortunately, I've been able to steer clear of those kinds of situations with only a few exceptions.

There are some good opportunities out there, but whether they work for you or not depends on what kind of book you have. If you've got an "A" book, people will jump at it wherever they happen to see it. But if the cover's a little off, you've got only a couple reviews or a sub-4-star rating, a bland description, or a perplexing title or genre, then nothing's going to work for you.

Last point: being dealthy afraid of having a promotion not work out to the point where you never do one is a good way to clip the wings of your career. No matter what it was that didn't work out, you can still write it off your taxes as an expense (which you should do anyway, even if it's stellar).


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## Sharebear (Sep 25, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> But the problem is I like to think I can do better. I suppose there's no shame in feeling that way, as long as it encourages me to try harder.


Ok I'll bite, I know we all want to hit it big, admit it to yourself or not but we do. Whether it's because you want your work to touch that many people or because you're laughing all the way to the bank, you want readers.
I'm still new to this whole process, but my gains are the e-mails or comments I get that tell me I'm doing something right. Someone read my book and liked it. That may be all of twenty people. But if you were a stage performer and it wasn't a sold out audience you'd still go on right?
I guess my point, if I have one, is get really excited about those twenty people, because they have friends. Friends who might read too. Shoot for sold out, but be prepared to be content with half filled. One day the curtain will rise on adoring fans, even if it's just a few.

And luck to those who try, lots of luck.

P.S. Someone mentioned book fairs and what not. I get no greater joy than meeting readers, even if only a few come to my table, they still came to me.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

KJCOLT said:


> So back on the 'nothing works' track.
> 
> I've noticed two conflicting statements on this board.
> 
> ...


*Because you make your own luck. * WTF is luck but being in the right place at the right time? And how do you get to that place? (Seriously, if you guys say luck I'll scream.) You take yourself to the right place and you stand there until the right time appears.

This translates to: You create the conditions required to be at the right place so that when the right time comes, you're ready to go. Olympic athletes are a good example. They train for ten, maybe fifteen years to get that one moment where they have the opportunity to be great. Either they're ready for it and they take it (Lucky? No, I don't think so) or they're not ready for it and they don't take it. (Unlucky? no, I don't think so.)


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

TattooedWriter said:


> If selling a novel for 99c works for you, then use it. I am simply saying what *I* think when an author tweets that their amazing, best-thing-since-sliced-bread, loved-by-all-readers-of-the-genre novel is 99c. It lowers its perceived value.


Wait, you read authors' tweets? 

I keep trying 99cents now and then. It reduces my income every time, and it increases sales volume, but only on the visible titles. With the invisible titles, it doesn't matter what I do. I think really expensive/sold out ads are the only way.

I think that within the next few months, a few more advertisers will pop up.

They absolutely MUST pre-screen their advertisers, though, and be targeted, or they won't be worth it.

I think there's a huge opportunity for book bloggers and people who read a lot of books, because they can actually sample the books.

But I'm getting way off-topic here.

Anyway. During the gold rush, the people selling the shovels made good money. If somebody around here sets up an advertising services and does it WELL, they'll be my new best pals. I have many ideas. But I don't have the time to do it.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

32K! Is this on a pen name? Give us the deets.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

dalya said:


> Wait, you read authors' tweets?
> 
> I keep trying 99cents now and then. It reduces my income every time, and it increases sales volume, but only on the visible titles. With the invisible titles, it doesn't matter what I do. I think really expensive/sold out ads are the only way.
> 
> ...


Are the invisible titles similar (genre) to the visible ones? If they are, why not try bundling one with one of the visible ones? It may raise awareness and get in the hands of readers. Call it a bonus story.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

dalya said:


> Wait, you read authors' tweets?


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Twitter's for connection, not marketing. I love it, so I'm there. I may have sold some stuff, but the friends and connections i've made are more valuable. I hate FB and never know what to do there. I'm with dalya, nothing I've done really works except writing books--and Kickstarter. That raised my visibility a lot.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

dalya said:


> As of today, I'm going to just say NO to marketing busywork that makes you feel like you're doing something when you're not.


This is good advice. In more general terms; do more of what works and less of what doesn't.

The market is so full of "buy my book" noise that I don't think our individual marketing efforts have much of a chance to get attention, much less generate a sale. On the other hand, I do believe that marketing "events" still have value, particularly if they are tied to something new and different.

The problem with promoting the same old book is that it is still the same old book. If you are unhappy with your sales, it might be worthwhile to change something before you put energy into another promotion. From what I've seen, most promotion activities have short-lived (if any) benefit. They might get attention for your book, but they don't *sell* your book. Your book has to sell itself: it seems to be all about the metadata and the content. Maybe it's time to try a new cover, a new description, or a new price. That way, your next promotion gives your book a chance to try selling itself anew.

I'm basing my suggestion on something I just did myself that took my book from 0 sales in May  to 290 (so far) in August . I changed my description and price, and then I ran a free campaign with several other fantasy authors in June. As virtually everyone has pointed out, the benefits of going free are increasingly short-lived, so it's unlikely that the free campaign explains the sales I'm seeing two months later. The only other things that changed were the book's description and price, so one of those probably made the difference. I say "probably" because random luck also seems to be a significant factor in this business.  At the same time, I doubt just changing the price and description would have done anything by themselves because the book was ranked in the 400K range--who would have ever seen the changes? I believe that the free promo gave my book another shot at convincing readers to buy. The truth is that I'll never know for sure: I changed too many things at once.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I've read all the responses on this thread with great interest.

Then I fed my hand to my cat. I mean, I gave him a pill.

I think there is a connection between being an indie author and giving a cat a pill, though I'm not sure what.   

Also, OMG PINK BAR on KDP maintenance mode. Oh why oh why ... snivel.


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## Iwritelotsofbooks (Nov 17, 2010)

Anyway. During the gold rush, the people selling the shovels made good money. If somebody around here sets up an advertising services and does it WELL, they'll be my new best pals. I have many ideas. But I don't have the time to do it.
[/quote]

I think it's harder to run a successful book blog, then have a successful indie book (and this is coming from someone who's failed at both). If you look at it, there's POI, ENT, KFD, KND, Frugal Ereader, Ereader IQ, and a couple others now and then. That's still less than a dozen on the entire internet where you can buy ad space and possibly make back your money.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

lacymarankevinmichael said:


> I think it's harder to run a successful book blog, then have a successful indie book (and this is coming from someone who's failed at both). If you look at it, there's POI, ENT, KFD, KND, Frugal Ereader, Ereader IQ, and a couple others now and then. That's still less than a dozen on the entire internet where you can buy ad space and possibly make back your money.


The issue with most book blogs is they're hobby endeavours, so the folks never do a business plan. Something like POI you can do a business plan for, and it may or may not work, but at least it has a chance.

Now, for an advertising site, here's what you do: Take the advertiser's money, say $100, and pay 90 people 99cents to buy the book. You pay them in bitcoin and team up with hackers or bots or who cares.

If an indie author pays $100 and gets 90 sales in one day, it may put them high enough on a list that they'll get 11 more sales, thus recouping the investment. Even if they only get 90 sales, you bet they'll be back at that site booking another ad, enjoying the thrill of imagining 90 people reading their book. Nevermind that it's bots.

Or ... you could start collecting email address and perhaps try to build up a legit business. Maybe a hybrid? And once you get enough real buyers, you stop paying the bots.

YES I JUST SAID ALL THIS and not only is it a great idea and probably illegal, but it's likely already happening.


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## Boris Guzo (May 31, 2012)

There is no spoon?

=P


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## Randirogue (Apr 25, 2011)

dalya said:


> The issue with most book blogs is they're hobby endeavours, so the folks never do a business plan. Something like POI you can do a business plan for, and it may or may not work, but at least it has a chance.
> 
> Now, for an advertising site, here's what you do: Take the advertiser's money, say $100, and pay 90 people 99cents to buy the book. You pay them in bitcoin and team up with hackers or bots or who cares.
> 
> ...


With this thinking, it makes me wonder if it would be a worthy investment to simply gift $100 in books. Not free, unlimited downloads, but put out on your blog or website or social media and forums that you will gift ____ # of full-priced books (up to your initial cost of $100, though after you then recap your royalty on those gifted books, won't actually cost you that much) on a first come, first serve basis. It's still a giveaway, sure, but you may be more likely to get people who will actually read your book rather than the throes who just keep downloading so many freebies that they'll never even get to yours in their lifetime. It may not be true of everyone, but I know that I've read every book I've been "gifted" out of respect to the person who "gifted" it to me on Amazon. Even books in genres I didn't normally read on my own. Granted, I haven't been inundated with such things, either, so it wasn't like I had a slew of them to read. However, I've actually enjoyed all of these books to a decent degree... even those I wouldn't have even considered on my own. I've even gone on to read more of their books because of that experience (again, even some not my typical preferred genres).

It's just something that your post made me think about. Don't know if I'd ever try it myself in bulk like that. But I have gifted a few to readers-fans of other areas of my life in hopes of igniting their interest in my ebooks as well.

If the sales boosted my ranking enough to grab some attention from others, bonus! If the "gifted" readers leave a couple reviews, fantastic! I wonder if the ratio of these types of results would make "gifting" a better investment than buying ad space (many of which require pre-existing high reviews before you can get a spot).


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Randirogue said:


> With this thinking, it makes me wonder if it would be a worthy investment to simply gift $100 in books. ...


Let me stop you right there.

Gifted books register on your sales, so you get the commission, but they DO NOT COUNT toward rank. People here have tested it and confirmed.

Why?

Because Amazon knows people will do exactly this tactic. So they have shut it down.

And on that same note, here's a word of caution:

*Don't sign up with a group buy to buy each other's books on a set date.* Here's what'll happen: your book's alsobots will be those books. I was signed up to do something like that, but I backed out because of the alsobots, and because it was too much effort and only a dozen buys, so it wouldn't have counted for anything. Also, there was a strong peer pressure to review the books and I didn't have interest in that.


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## Quinn Richardson (Apr 20, 2012)

dalya said:


> Across all my books, I'm getting close to 200k in downloads.


Holy [crap]. Unless that was a typo, you have given away 200,000 books. That's a really hard number to visualize. Fortunately there is an internet to help us with these things:

If every book you gave away was one penny, you have given away 1200 pounds of pennies.
If every book you gave away represented one person, they would have over-filled the stadiums of both of the last two super Bowls combined.
If every book you gave away was loaded on a Kindle and those Kindles were laid end to end, they would cover a full marathon (26.2 miles).

Damn. If you were looking for your audience, I would say that you already found it. You just didn't profit from it. I think you are a victim of your own success, and now you are that gal that writes awesome stuff for free. Maybe you could at least write it off as charitable donation?


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## Quinn Richardson (Apr 20, 2012)

Oooh, wait.  Forget all that.  Just had a better idea:

"Artisan bread in FOUR minutes"


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Quinn Richardson said:


> Holy [crap]. Unless that was a typo, you have given away 200,000 books. That's a really hard number to visualize. Fortunately there is an internet to help us with these things:
> 
> If every book you gave away was one penny, you have given away 1200 pounds of pennies.
> If every book you gave away represented one person, they would have over-filled the stadiums of both of the last two super Bowls combined.
> ...


Amazon sells ... what ... a million Kindles a week? (I can't find a number.) That means if each of my downloads went to a separate Kindle account, one of my books passed through a day's worth of new Kindle owners.

The market is huge. Huge!

And most free downloads don't get read anyway.

I almost think if you only get 100 downloads on a Freebie day, you might get more fans, as they're people who were looking for exactly that thing and not simply downloading the top 100 in their favorite genre that day, just to have handy.


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## Quinn Richardson (Apr 20, 2012)

dalya said:


> I almost think if you only get 100 downloads on a Freebie day, you might get more fans, as they're people who were looking for exactly that thing and not simply downloading the top 100 in their favorite genre that day, just to have handy.


I agree with this part absolutely. If only there were a system that allowed you to find 100 readers genuinely interested in your title, rather than 10,000 random book harvesters.


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## Randirogue (Apr 25, 2011)

dalya said:


> Let me stop you right there.
> 
> Gifted books register on your sales, so you get the commission, but they DO NOT COUNT toward rank. People here have tested it and confirmed.
> 
> ...


Very good points. I don't pay that much attention to rank (other than when I did freebie days in Select) because I'm still new and don't expect to necessarily become a best-seller, especially not anytime soon. That was why I thought of it as a bonus. That gifted books don't register in ranking is nice to know, but wouldn't be that big a factor in dismissing the tactic of "gifting" over paying out for an expensive ad that (as I've been hearing) doesn't do much to help sales, reviews, or garner other aspects of gaining the book notice. If I was closer to being in a noticeable range in the rankings, then it would factor into such a decision. But, for now, rank isn't that big a deal for me.

Reminder: I didn't say I would do this, just that the thought came to mind.

It would be fantastic if bulk "gifting" earned me some honest reviews, though. That would have significant worth for me.

However, I'm waiting to do any such marketing things just yet. This is just me. I don't discourage buying ads, gifting, or any other promotional tactics in anyone else. I am just focusing on producing quality stories for now. After I build up a solid, respectable body of published works for potential readers to perhaps indulge in (indulge me by trying them out), then I will put more serious thought into my marketing and promotional options.

Until then, I merely let my mind get sparked and wander on potential options to consider for the future. And, by mentioning them in threads like this one, I can learn alternate opinions and perspectives on those percolations.

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge, experience, and opinion. I appreciate it.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Quinn Richardson said:


> If every book you gave away was one penny, you have given away 1200 pounds of pennies.
> If every book you gave away represented one person, they would have over-filled the stadiums of both of the last two super Bowls combined.
> If every book you gave away was loaded on a Kindle and those Kindles were laid end to end, they would cover a full marathon (26.2 miles).


And she's still barely scratching the surface of potential readers. That's the key piece you are missing caught up in all that melodrama.


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## Quinn Richardson (Apr 20, 2012)

Adam Pepper said:


> And she's still barely scratching the surface of potential readers. That's the key piece you are missing caught up in all that melodrama.


My apologies for the melodrama. I meant for it to be illustrative, not derogatory.

I'll agree, _one_ writer just scratches the surface. But the collective glut of daily giveaways is doing much more than scratch the surface, no? I don't know the ratio of free versus paid eBooks on any given user's Kindle, but I bet it's much higher than you or I would like it to be.

And with that, I'll quit beating the drum. Best wishes to all. Seriously.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Quinn Richardson said:


> My apologies for the melodrama. I meant for it to be illustrative, not derogatory.


Fair enough. It sounded like you were taking a potshot at Dalya and I was slightly offended on her behalf.

I havent seen any concrete evidence to show the glut of free books is in any way impacting sales of books. Last I heard, ebook sales were at all time highs. It's a complex problem, and the trend is for digital content to be cheap or free. That is worldwide and runs through all digital products. Personally, I dont see that trend changing, and I dont think a relative handful of indie writers will impact that trend one way or another.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Quinn Richardson said:


> My apologies for the melodrama. I meant for it to be illustrative, not derogatory.
> 
> I'll agree, _one_ writer just scratches the surface. But the collective glut of daily giveaways is doing much more than scratch the surface, no? I don't know the ratio of free versus paid eBooks on any given user's Kindle, but I bet it's much higher than you or I would like it to be.
> 
> And with that, I'll quit beating the drum. Best wishes to all. Seriously.


Oh, I enjoyed the math of it all! I enjoyed the pennies analogy and didn't take any offence. I know there are some mixed feelings around here about freebies and everyone has their own opinion. I thought your post was actually pretty neutral and just about the shock of the big number.

@ Adam I appreciate your support as well. 

I do shoot my mouth off around here a lot, so I expect a little pushback, heh.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

DanielJamesDavis said:


> So true! With reviews, that at least means there are people out there who are actively downloading one's book and perusing through it.
> 
> Little is more frustrating to an author than casual indifference.


Getting reviews is possible!

http://www.yaindie.com/2012/05/12-tips-for-getting-book-reviews.html

It should take maybe 8 hours of work to get a dozen reviews on Amazon, if everything else is lined up right (good cover/blurb/writing/clear genre)

Here, I MADE A CHART! About what matters and how much it matters:










twitterfluffing counts as 1 point, and it's mixed in with blogging and goodreads networking, aka "social media". 

PLEASE NOTE, this is my highly subjective value breakdown. YMMV. I know one time you tweeted and someone's gramma bought a book for 99cents and all was great in the world, but ... 1 point.


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I don't leave forums. I'm banned from them.
> 
> *waves to Betsy in a slightly paranoid-sort-of way, similar to how I wave to cops even though I know I'm not doing anything wrong, but you never know, they could be in a bad mood and hate the cut of your jib and just decide to give you the permanent ouster just for the helluvit*


Or throw you out for forgetting there is two cops and only ever naming one. Oh no, wait, ninja cop can't be noticed as she's a ninjamod...


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## brooksjones (Jun 6, 2012)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> Twitter's for connection, not marketing. I love it, so I'm there. I may have sold some stuff, but the friends and connections i've made are more valuable. I hate FB and never know what to do there. I'm with dalya, nothing I've done really works except writing books--and Kickstarter. That raised my visibility a lot.


Mei: I'd love to hear more about your experiences with Kickstarter. I've been watching the projects of other creative types show up there with interest, and was wondering how you did with it.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

dalya said:


> NOTE: edited my original post because it sounded like a cry for help, but I'm doing okay, and I meant it as a *phooey *to *piddly *marketing *busywork*.
> 
> Paid advertisements = flush your money down the toilet or, if you find some advertising that works, they'll jack up the price weekly until it's no longer worthwhile, or they'll be booked until 2015.
> 
> ...


I'm curious:

* Did you advertise in places where those most likely to read your book, your core audience, is found? Generalized advertising is as productive as spitting into hurricane-force winds.
* Did you just use social media in general to promote your stuff, or did you try to cultivate an audience of people who, again, would be most likely to be interested in your book. See hurricane analogy above.


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## Nicole Ciacchella (May 21, 2012)

For a while, I was expending all of my effort with promoting my book, and I was spending very little time writing.  I hate promotion, and this just had the effect of stressing me out and making me feel unfulfilled, which was even worse once I realized the promotion had little effect.  So I stopped doing it.

Just recently, I noticed a few people were clicking to my blog via Goodreads.  After having all but given up on my blog, I decided to resurrect it again, but this time in such a way that the effort on my end will be pretty minimal.  I'm shooting for updating it three times a week at least, more if I'm in the mood.  I took a deeper look at which of my posts got hits, and could see that people would go to the posts where I had excerpts from my books, sometimes months after I made said post.  So I decided to stick with doing a weekly excerpt post.  This obviously requires no real additional effort on my part because I'd be writing the stuff from the excerpt anyway.  Plus, it gives readers a chance to sample some of the work and, if they like it, they can buy it when it's out, AND it keeps the work fresh in their minds.  Win/win.

As for Twitter, I decided what I wanted out of it was to connect.  I don't have a lot of readers who follow me, but when I do Tweet, it's generally about some aspect of my personality or it's to share something I think is cool (a blog post from another author, a link to a picture taken by Curiosity, etc.).  While I almost always read my friends' Tweets, I usually blow through all other posts--except those by a YA author because she posts such funny stuff.  Her Tweets are entertaining and they make me feel like I know her at a more personal level, so I decided to model my Twitter philosophy after hers.  And I'm much happier now.  I'm more or less taking the same approach with my FB fan page, which has a very minimal number of followers at this point.

Off topic, I also enjoy reading Hugh's posts.  I'm happy for his success and think it's well deserved.  I've read the first two books in the Wool series (and the rest are waiting for me on my Kindle), and Hugh is an excellent writer.  Plus, I very, very much appreciate Hugh sharing his experiences, and his advocacy for self-publishing.  One of the things I really love about self-publishing is how generous most of my fellow authors are with their time and their experience.  I was very freaked out about doing this in the beginning, but interacting with authors here has made me feel so much better about my own ups and downs.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I've found one thing that consistently raises my sales numbers.  Writing more books.  That's why I don't bother with doing anything else. I can't control that stuff. I can control how many books I write, how awesome they are, and if they are well-produced (editing/cover/blurb).  Anything else is a headache, personally.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I worked on yachts for a long while, and no matter how big my owner's boat would be, we would pull into a marina with a larger one. I'd dock up a 115' yacht, three decks, five bedrooms, a hot tub, jet skis in the boat's fold-down garage, $20 million dollars, and there'd be a 150' boat in the next slip. And the owner would gaze over there and talk about how he really needed a bigger yacht.
> 
> Meanwhile, people were gazing up from the wharf in complete awe of this floating castle. But my owner never saw them at all.


Semi-OT, one of my translation clients is a shipyard specializing in luxury yachts. And some of the owners are flat-out crazy and order custom designed contraptions allowing their dog to go swimming in the ocean or mini-submarines or a second helicopter landing pad, because the first is too close to the owner's cabin and therefore too noisy.

But there's also the yacht that shows up every year for inspection and repairs. It's fifty years old and the interior reportedly looks as if you could shoot _Mad Men_ in there. Many of the installations are falling apart. I mostly get to translate reports that the exhaust gas system or whatever needs to be replaced, because it's completely rusted. And guess what? This yacht is owned by one of the richest men in the world. Yet he never reacts to the suggestions that maybe it's time for a new yacht. Because that gentleman is obviously satisfied with what he has.

Anyway, I clearly remember the time when I would have been happy to publish just one story in the non-paying university magazine (did that and repeated it a few times). When I was thrilled to actually get paid for a story. I always thought, "If I reach that, then I'll be satisfied." And I always wanted more.

Otherwise, I agree with Dalya. Books I have promoted sell badly, books I barely promoted at all sell well. Nothing works except writing more books to raise the chance of getting one that sells well.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Greg Banks said:


> I'm curious:
> 
> * Did you advertise in places where those most likely to read your book, your core audience, is found? Generalized advertising is as productive as spitting into hurricane-force winds.
> * Did you just use social media in general to promote your stuff, or did you try to cultivate an audience of people who, again, would be most likely to be interested in your book. See hurricane analogy above.


1. I've done some paid ads that worked well, but they were with the giant services that are crazy expensive and/or sold out.

2. I don't believe in going out and friending people in order to get them to buy my books. I don't believe in it like I don't believe in the Easter Bunny. I don't believe in creating a huge amount of content in order to draw people to my content and then cross-sell my books.

I do treasure the friendships I've made with people online, but those two dozen book sales (while appreciated!) aren't going to make or break my career, nor do I expect it to.

I do blog about writing, but it's for fun and to give back, same reason I post on here. I am making some YouTube videos, but it's for fun, and I know it won't sell books.



CoraBuhlert said:


> ... Nothing works except writing more books to raise the chance of getting one that sells well.


I've heard the truly rich people don't have flashy things. I love the idea of the guy with his Mad Men yacht.  I have holes in my socks, which my Realtor friend says is a sign I have money and sense. ha ha

Yes, your own books are like the best market research. If you hit gold with one series or genre, you should keep digging there.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Doomed Muse said:


> I've found one thing that consistently raises my sales numbers. Writing more books.


Consistently? For serious?

Are all your books in one series? If not, are they all quite similar to each other?

Sometimes, (okay most of the time) I release a new book to crickets. The only time that a new release consistently raised my numbers was if it was a new book in my popular(-ish) series. (Which is now done.) I can't figure how you get fans to jump from one series to another, or from a popular stand-alone to another stand-alone in the same genre. I even give the first book of my new series away to every subscriber to my update list and advertise that in the back of each of my books, and thus far, I cannot get that series to take off.

How do you manage this consistency you speak of?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I have to agree with Valerie that a new book when it is a stand alone does not seem to raise the sales of other stand alone novels. In fact, selling stand alone novels is quite difficult.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

No idea, Valerie. I write in multiple genres, but each book seems to sell a few copies at least (some do better than others), which adds to the total over all.  Some are series, but I've only just begun to experiment with those.

New formats also help. Releasing things in paper and audio has also helped grow my sales.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

dalya said:


> I've heard the truly rich people don't have flashy things. I love the idea of the guy with his Mad Men yacht.  I have holes in my socks, which my Realtor friend says is a sign I have money and sense. ha ha
> 
> Yes, your own books are like the best market research. If you hit gold with one series or genre, you should keep digging there.


Coincidentally, the people with the flashy yachts are mostly Russian oligarchs.

I totally agree that trying many things and many books tells you what works and what doesn't. I have dug up several half-finished historical shorts and novelettes, because those sell best for no reason I can discern.


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## MGalloway (Jun 21, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> I have to agree with Valerie that a new book when it is a stand alone does not seem to raise the sales of other stand alone novels. In fact, selling stand alone novels is quite difficult.


The results are even worse when those novels are scattered across different genres.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

Good luck for your new romance title, Dalya  Sounds like it's off to a riproaring start!



> 2. I don't believe in going out and friending people in order to get them to buy my books. I don't believe in it like I don't believe in the Easter Bunny. I don't believe in creating a huge amount of content in order to draw people to my content and then cross-sell my books.


I don't believe in those things either. Except the Easter Bunny. How else do you score lots of chocolate at Easter?


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> and *audio* has also helped grow my sales.


oooh! I want to know more about this. How'd u do it? What % of your sales is audio? I was thinking about it for my main series.

In regard to the ranking not being affected by gifting books - thats not true. I did it myself and it DID help the rank. There was an instant boost. It appeared within an hour and held for about 12 hours. I gifted 50 books @ 99 cents ea. The book went from 100K+ to 12K. And then it stopped. It turned into a nightmare. Each sale was processed by Amazon separately, so my CC was locked. They thought some nut was buying a million 99 cent books. Then MANY of the ppl I gifted the book to did not get the email with the redeem info, so Amazon kept my money and they didnt get the book. Seriously. I've gifted my ebooks to family and they said the same thing. That part looked questionable to me. They couldnt tell I bought it for them.


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## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

Also, when you gift a book through Amazon, the recipient actually gets store credit, which they can use to buy anything they want. They don't have to buy your book.


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## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> Discovery is very important in buying books. Recommendation is, also.
> 
> Discovery is finding out about something that you didn't know about, giving it a shot, and if you loved it, you go on to buy the thing again, eat at that restaurant again, read that author again, etc. This is accomplished by the free copies thing in most of our cases. No risk, no obligation. Just read. Keep going if you liked it.
> 
> ...


I actually have a 1970 Mustang convertible sitting in my garage for the past ten years. Or shall I say rusting in my garage since the car hasn't run since my husband bought it at age 15. I've been trying to give that thing away for years. Hubby won't let me.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

Jenmills said:


> Ultimately, the most valuable promotional tools for an author are the cover, blurb and excerpt. These things matter more than anything else.


No way. The author's own FAME matters more than anything else.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

brooksjones said:


> Mei: I'd love to hear more about your experiences with Kickstarter. I've been watching the projects of other creative types show up there with interest, and was wondering how you did with it.


I'll send you a PM in a bit, I've written a lot about it here already.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

DanielJamesDavis said:


> Fame is a blight upon the world of literacy.


http://www.cyberpsychology.eu/view.php?cisloclanku=2011061601&article=1

Read that.

Children acknowledge fame is more important than even being kind now, haha. It's true, you can't get paid to be yourself if you're kind, but you can get paid a ton of money for doing next to nothing if you're famous. ALSO, fame provides a nearly limitless number of sexual partners, as women go crazy for famous men. An ex of mine worked at a hotel, one of the backstreet boys was in Vancouver several years ago and he had sex with at least four fans a day while he was in town. She even got to ask him how easy it was, and he said while at Red Robin having a burger with a family member, a waitress wrote her number on the napkin and the word "SEX" on it. He pounded her after she got off her shift.

Everyone on the Kindle forum knows in the back of their mind, the best way to make money off books is by being famous. I plan to exploit a few fast routes to fame, but I won't go on a shooting spree or act like a spaz during casting for America's Got Talent.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

sicklove said:


> Everyone on the Kindle forum knows in the back of their mind, the best way to make money off books is by being famous.


Actually, I kind of prefer the Hugh Howey method. It sounds like a contraceptive, but, uhh, anyway.

Write the best books you can, as often and as well as you can, and keep writing and keep writing until something good happens. That's about it.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

David Adams said:


> Actually, I kind of prefer the Hugh Howey method. It sounds like a contraceptive, but, uhh, anyway.
> 
> Write the best books you can, as often and as well as you can, and keep writing and keep writing until something good happens. That's about it. you finally force out an HEA ending.


 

I'm using the Amanda Hocking method. I'm just writing as fast as I can. And I really like purple.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Yep. I'm going with the keep writing, editing, and publishing option - because you never know which book will be the one that really resonates with readers, but you do know that you're not likely to write it if you spend all your time publicising the first one.

On the subject of fame - I don't want to be famous, I want to be renowned! 

Fame is mostly show and not much substance, plus, it's usually fleeting. I'd rather accomplish things, and have the rewards to show for it, without the hassle of people tailing me around with cameras when I'm trying to get on with my day to day life. The trouble with seeking out fame rather than success, is that you get trapped into a cycle of increasingly desperate publicity stunts in order to keep the press interested and stay famous. Your job becomes staying famous, rather than doing whatever it is that you'd like to be famous for. Obviously, a lot of people still want that _a lot _ - but I don't think it would make me happy. I would prefer a more solid foundation to my success, so that if I slip, I don't slip back all the way to the bottom!


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

David Adams said:


> Actually, I kind of prefer the Hugh Howey method. It sounds like a contraceptive, but, uhh, anyway.
> 
> Write the best books you can, as often and as well as you can, and keep writing and keep writing until something good happens. That's about it.


Love this....and that method certainly worked for Hugh. I love reading his good news here, it always inspires me.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

I wonder if it depends on the genre, because I find the social networking works. But I don't really treat that as part of my job--no Ra Ra Ra! Promo Promo Promo!   

The authors I connect with on FB or goodreads are the ones that don't talk too much about their books, and when they do it's not just 'Please buy!' Any invites or friend requests followed by promo are ignored and deleted. So I think it depends what kind of social networking is being done. 

Posting teasers on FB keeps my readers happy. Letting them know they don't have to wait too long for the next book makes them happier!


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## Savannah_Page (Feb 16, 2012)

Rachel Schurig said:


> I've had these days, absolutely. I'm sorry! Please rant and vent away!
> 
> Not to try and mess with your plan, but my series didn't take off _at all_ until they were *all* out. If I would have declined to write the series until the first one had proven itself with some sales, I never would have written the series or had any success. As far as free goes, I've seen the most post-free sales for the rest of the series, not the first one. Having several books out to discover after your free run kind of negates the need for a post free bump on the free title. I've been noticing Romi's perma-free book for a while and have been wondering how it's working for her. I think Lillianna Hart does perma-free to great success. I'm very interested in this.


Thanks for sharing, Rachel. I figure that once a series is obviously a series and _all_ of the books are out there, the likelihood of it getting a bit more recognition is higher. Of course in my head I know my _When Girlfriends_ book is the start of a series, but who else really knows? I'm hoping that sales pick up as the series grows. I've wondered sometimes, "Did Rachel come out with _Baby_ and it hit huge? Then _Wedding_ and more madness? Etc.  Or only once there was clearly a series out? I know you've attributed many of your sales to some very lucky free runs, but having an actual series out like yours (and a good one!) has to help out a bit in the sales department. Oh, I hope eventually, when a string of books in my series shows up under my name, that I, too, can find a growth in sales!


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

David Adams said:


> Actually, I kind of prefer the Hugh Howey method. It sounds like a contraceptive, but, uhh, anyway.


This reminds me that I *am* famous for something. And it's very much the opposite of contraception.

Google "Deanna's Plan" and you'll see it. It was about the LAST thing I ever thought I'd be famous for. I've been meaning to turn the plan into a small free ebook. It might be time to do that. It's been on my web site for years.

I think I'm probably more likely to be infamous than famous anyway...


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> But more than this, it's devalued the pantheon to the degree that folks
> have erroneous ideas about price.
> 
> And of course we can do something about it. We can stop offering ourselves
> for free and start reeducating the reading public to pay for play.


I absolutely agree with the above. Doing this would help all of us.

To the man who asked if the person who bought the $25 book would not have also bought it for .99, I can't speak for that person, but as for me: No, I would not have bought it for .99. I don't buy .99 books and I don't download free. I tried some last fall and got too many poorly edited, poorly proofed books. I am sure that is not true with all of the .99 and free, but time is as valuable to me as money (even though I have very little money now, trying to write and live off one very average income in the house). I read only indies unless someone gives me a book and I buy indies that cost most than .99. It shows me that they believe in their book and take themselves seriously. *Now, please, I am not saying that everyone who has a .99 or free sucks. * I AM saying I am tired of wasting time on books with typos on every page so I am no longer willing to wade through it finding those jewels. And, yes, I could read the sample first. I started to and found that, again, too many free and .99 were a mess. Time that could be spent on another sample of a book that costs a little more and maybe won't be a mess. If the more costly (and I use that term loosely for indies, as even $4.99 is not costly) samples are a mess, I move on...but it happens less frequently.

Let me add one exception. Once a series is complete, if an author makes the first book free for a SHORT promo or makes it .99 or anything less than the rest of the series, I would buy it. I understand a loss leader. I don't understand doing that when you have one book of the series out. Then again, there are many authors here much more successful than I am and perhaps they do or did that.

All I know is I was a reader for many decades before I became an author and I would not have felt that an author who gave away books all the time or only charged .99 was very good. As a reader I would not have thought about loss leaders, even. I just would not have taken them seriously. I am no big guru about writing. I am just me. I was just a reader. As an author, I have to think about what I thought as a reader when pricing and marketing my books.

I am having a miserable August. Freefall. Still, I am not lowering my prices. One reader at a time. One reader at a time. I get good feedback from the readers I do have and my books are worth at least what a good beer or movie ticket costs.

I am also not an idiot. If several months down the road I am not seeing progress I will have to evaluate everything, including pricing. Who knows? Maybe I will do a loss leader. I just know I can't panic every time I have a bad spell. Knowing if something works takes months, not days or weeks (like price increase, new cover, etc). Jumping around with all of it constantly tells you nothing.

As far as luck goes, you do need luck. And you know what? Making sure you get lucky is VERY hard work. I think it was Henry Ford who said "Luck is when dedication and preparation meet opportunity." We have to *dedicate* ourselves to writing the best books that we can. We need to *prepare* them professionally (proofed well, etc) and then we need to put ourselves where *opportunity* happens. That does include social media. It includes guest posts and interviews, everything that we all know about.

But most of all, we have to repeat the first two over and over again with more books. If we do that and keep building we are visable and can have "luck" happen to us. Writing more books that look professional by the time we download them is most important of all. You can tweet, blog, facebook and buy advertising 24 hours a day, but if you have books that look like a rattlesnack on crack proofed them it isn't going to help.

Write the best that can. Have it well proofed. Do some marketing. And keep going! If it was easy, everyone would be a writer. Hang in there!


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Caddy said:


> To the man who asked if the person who bought the $25 book would not have also bought it for .99, I can't speak for that person, but as for me: No, I would not have bought it for .99. I don't buy .99 books and I don't download free. I tried some last fall and got too many poorly edited, poorly proofed books.


That would be me. Feel free to call me Adam.

You arent adressing the question. I'm asking you about books you actually did buy. Did you buy them because they were priced 'X'? And if they were priced less, would you have not bought them? Because for most readers, price is not in the top two or three reasons they buy a book.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi Adam!  Thanks for responding.  I was too lazy to go back and search after already copying one other quote.    It IS Monday after all. 

Well, I think I did answer your question later in my post.  I will say that price was not a factor before I started reading indies.  I bought based on what sounded good and on recommendations from friends sometimes.  So, the back cover blurb mattered a lot.  Also the front cover.  

It changed when I started reading indies. After trying to read several free and .99 and being frustrated as a reader (and angered as an indie author because badly proofed books by indies makes all of us look bad to many readers), price did become a deciding factor.  

I don't just buy anything that is, say, $3.99 or $4.99 regardless of what it is about.  It still has to catch my eye.  But once it does I check the price.  Free or .99?  I move on.  Unless it is an author that I was going to go buy and for some lucky reason the book is free that day for a promo...but I already knew the author and had read the sample, was interested, and said  "This is something I will buy soon." 

For example, I am reading books done by someone on here right now. They are not one of my usual genres but I absolutely love them. HOWEVER, if they had been free or .99 I would have moved on without reading them because I would have been afraid they were a waste of time. Because they were $3.99 and he is an interesting person, I bought them.  And loved them.  Price mattered.  In this case, a price that showed he felt his work was worth something.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> This reminds me that I *am* famous for something. And it's very much the opposite of contraception.
> 
> Google "Deanna's Plan" and you'll see it. It was about the LAST thing I ever thought I'd be famous for. I've been meaning to turn the plan into a small free ebook. It might be time to do that. It's been on my web site for years.
> 
> I think I'm probably more likely to be infamous than famous anyway...


That was you? I came across that when we were trying. We stuck with every other day in the end, but it looked like a good plan and I was close to giving it a go when I got pregnant with my son (ironically, I found out about two days before we were due to go in to the doctor for the results of our fertility tests!) So, thank you for sharing that with the world. I'm sure it's helped a lot of people. 

On the topic of publicity -

I don't currently plan to do any until I have a lot more titles out. Even then, I'll probably restrict myself to a Kindleboards or Goodreads advert, or a Goodreads give away. I see social media as a way for people to interact with me if they want to. I certainly don't plan to spam people with requests to buy my book! I unfollow people for that type of spam unless I know them in real life (then I put up with it, and just twitch every time I see that darned daily Bookbuzzr tweet...) In fact, I generally unfollow for any type of spam - and I have a very low spam tolerance level!


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Caddy said:


> Hi Adam! Thanks for responding. I was too lazy to go back and search after already copying one other quote.  It IS Monday after all.


Thanks Caddy. Happy monday!

Your points are well taken. 99 cent books are starting to have conotations all their own, simply based on price. We should all be aware of that. But at the same time, if a book by your favorite author was on sale for 99 cents, you'd probably jump on the bargain. That tells me that establishing the strength of my author brand by putting out quality books and getting them in front of eyeballs is more important than price. So, I've concluded that if 99 cents and free helps me get eyeballs, and if I believe in the work itself, it's a good thing for both short and long term to get those eyeballs at any cost.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> But at the same time, if a book by your favorite author was on sale for 99 cents, you'd probably jump on the bargain.


Oh, absolutely! I think I did mention that I am pleased when I find a book I had decided to buy is actually on sale when I go to buy it. I have nothing against .99 or free for a SHORT sale or promo, once an author has several books out. It is a treat for fans to find a book on sale from someone they love.

I also will do giveaways on blogs. When reviewers have special promos they are doing for their blog, sometimes I will give away several ebooks. That way people know it is something worth winning, because they can't go and grab it at any time for .99 or free. I would rather give away a book to someone who actually wants it than to people who download everything and either never read it or bash it in a review because it "was not Chirstian" or it "was not romance" or "it was not for children." Too many people who download free download things that they hate because they don't bother to check out what it is.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

Aww, Zelah, I'm glad you found it! And that you didn't need the plan!

On Social Media--I find that if I am a true fan of an author, they can say anything they want and I'll listen. I actually had a Twitter conversation with Margaret Atwood a few weeks ago when her Twitter got uncharacteristically full of links to a crowdfunding project. I asked if her account had been hacked! She said it was her granddaughter's project. I didn't unfollow her over it, and probably that project is 200% funded!

I never tweet "Buy my book" because I am quite sure most of my following (small but mighty!) already has.


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## Randirogue (Apr 25, 2011)

David Adams said:


> Actually, I kind of prefer the Hugh Howey method. It sounds like a contraceptive, but, uhh, anyway.
> 
> Write the best books you can, as often and as well as you can, and keep writing and keep writing until something good happens. That's about it.


This is what I like best too. Not only is it easiest (to me), but it is well within my comfort zone. I get all squirmy when I think about promoting my stuff. I do a couple of things, announcements on blog, facebook, twitter, but I don't have a lot of followers and I'm not going out of my way to recruit them. Plus, most of my announcements tend to be late, since, well, I feel squirmy about it. lol. I try to engage people in general on these social media outlets, but I've become a bit of a quiet homebody, so I don't do it nearly enough to consider it part of my marketing arsenal.

But, for me, that's okay. I'm prepared for a long haul. I have no illusions of fame. I just want to be able to keep putting out stories of the highest quality to which I (and my editors) are capable. Sure, I want sales to come, but my temperament is much more suited to a slow growth anyways, so that's what I'm aiming for. Slow and steady, earned on its own merits.

Of course... this may change as time goes on, but this is how I feel now.

(*Edited to add:* While the above is my preference, I do theorize and consider various promotional and marketing options... just in case something seems viable, affordable, worthwhile, and doesn't make me too squirmy. lol)


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Adam Pepper said:


> You arent adressing the question. I'm asking you about books you actually did buy. Did you buy them because they were priced 'X'? And if they were priced less, would you have not bought them? Because for most readers, price is not in the top two or three reasons they buy a book.


In case you're interested in the answer of someone else who agrees with Caddy on general pricing philosophy - I occasionally check out a free or $.99 book I hear about that sounds good but less and less any more. I'm not sure the percentage of those I end up reading, but then the percentage of books by new-to-me authors I download samples of and end up buying and reading probably isn't high to start with. I'm fussy and writing is making me worse.

To answer the question as a reader, though, I never *do* buy books because they're priced at X (except in the case of favorite authors whose books are on sale). I often *don't* buy books because they're priced X. As stated above, I rarely look at the free and very cheap, so of course I rarely buy the very cheap. My upper limit is $7.99 except for favorite authors, and I have to really want that $7.99 book. Like many, I'm pretty comfortable in the $4.99 range.

My own books have been $2.99 since Amazon instituted the 70% royalty in July of 2010 and with my new one coming out in September, I'm raising my own prices to $3.99 with $4.99 as my end target for no other reason than my own feelings on price.

I'm also a practitioner of the Hugh Howey method except I've always thought of it as the Dean Wesley Smith method. It's not making me rich, but it's brought in a steady, pleasant income since June of 2010.


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