# Some thoughts about writing badly



## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

Hey there. Just running into a bit of a crossroads here and trying to find the right direction.

You ever hear of the idea that writers get better with practice? I’m still trying to figure out why the novel I wrote last year is a million times better than the short story I wrote today.

I think that there are two kinds of writer in me. The first writer who thinks ‘like a publisher’ and can write any type of story on the fly. The writer who writes to a business strategy. There’s definitely an urgency here to produce as much work as possible. Or at least … sell as much work as possible.

Then there’s my second writer, who writes to create perfect art. Sometimes, this means outlining, rewrites, extensive edits, writing pages and throwing them away, writing some more and throwing them away. Until you reach the perfect moment. 

You see, that writer wrote my first novel. And then I banged out the second novel with a decent idea and a lot of personal experience helped get it over the line. Problem is now, I’m caught between the demand to write as much as possible, and the slowness of perfection.

So I’m asking the experienced writers to look back to where you were in similar experience. 

Did you find that just writing the first thing that came to your head was the successful strategy? IE making sure you maintained your daily word counts no matter what?

Or was it important to extensively labor over each project and make sure you were bettering each work that preceded it?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I thought I knew everything there was to know about badly writing, but I'm not sure what the answer is on this one. I'm still on my first WIP, but I've got a backlog of other ideas I intent to tackle next, and I don't see me rushing through any of them to get the next work out.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

My answer to that is:

Write only if you can find something to write of which you are fairly certain it will end up in the final draft.

When I first started writing, I used to write thousands of words a day, like 14K. These days, I write 1-3000 words. 

The trick is recognising when you are writing useful stuff and when you are writing crap.

My first novel took me four years to write.

Last year, I finished three novels, two novellas and a bunch of short stories.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> My answer to that is:
> 
> Write only if you can find something to write of which you are fairly certain it will end up in the final draft.
> 
> ...


Well done, Patty. While I don't always comment, I follow yours and other successful indie writer's with admiration.

I totally get your thinking here. Thing is, I have also been inspired by certain other experienced writers who promote finishing everything you start - IE never giving up on a story. I am in essence, a prolific abandoner of stories. Sometimes it's one or two chapters in, other times I'm three quarters of the way. Thing is, if it wasn't for another writer telling me how great the first chapters of The Park (my first novel) were then I would have abandoned that on the onset. Now I am confident it's a great story, and I am in debt to others' encouragement that I finished it.

Seeing it finished, without much outlining, but plenty of rewrites, I was totally taken in by the idea that you should finish everything.

This weekend I wrote a 5000 word short, I know is bad. Wasn't trying to be bad either. Didn't know it was that bad until I finished it. I seriously think it ranks up with one of the worst pieces of writing I've completed. And then, following the brave method, I will write everything, I will finish everything, I will always meet my word counts, I will publish everything - and then I get this turd.

I seriously was contemplating forcing myself to publish it too. I won't however, because I just can't. I thought the secret was to just make sure you finish, because after all my abandonments (both good stories and bad) I thought that was the way.

Now I wonder if I need to outline more. I don't know.


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

The vast majority of trad published writers who paid rent on time every month, produced writing on demand that they had little to no investment in.  A few, a very few, made it making money by writing what they wanted, but doing it quickly.

Decide what type of writer you are.  Or wish to be.

There is also room for having a pen name for one type, and not publishing the two under the same name.  You can build audiences for both.

Quickly written okay books with good storytelling and interesting plots sell.  Well written books that require some work on behalf of the reader take much longer to build an audience for.  Sure, you might get lucky and get good sales on that side too, some do, but it's a hard slog.

But at core, you need to decide if you are first of all paying rent, or building art.  As I said, both are options.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

I go through cycles of writing that remind me of my appetite for music.
Sometimes I want to listen to simple rock 'n roll, just like I sometimes write simple prose.
Other times I like small combo jazz, just as my mood is to write snappy, fast paced dialog.
These periods can last a day or a month or more. 

Where I experience a conflict with past writing is when my taste is for rock and I go back and read words written on a jazz day.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

Morgan Gallagher said:


> The vast majority of trad published writers who paid rent on time every month, produced writing on demand that they had little to no investment in. A few, a very few, made it making money by writing what they wanted, but doing it quickly.
> 
> Decide what type of writer you are. Or wish to be.
> 
> ...


Okay, well this is like saying write badly to make money, and write well for no one.

Here's a question - Do some experienced writers here believe that everything you write should be finished / published? Or that you should wait until you're sure it hits your level of 'quality'? I get that you can write something great fast, of course, but you can also write crap fast. So after writing a piece of crap, do you move it to the backlist folder and start doing the opposite of what you did in order to write that (IE plan instead of discovery write), or do you publish the piece of crap with a smile, thinking every 99 cent sale is thirty cents towards rent, and then carry on writing your word count every day like a pro (Braveheart style)?


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm certainly capable of writing crap, but if I start writing something that's crap I probably won't end up finishing the story... so no I wouldn't publish crap.

Then again I do usually edit several times in the middle of writing which helps me detect if it's crap coming out.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Writing is personal and we're all different.

That said, I know a lot of the "professionals" who have had long careers say that the important thing is to sit down, write, and get the work finished so you can move on to the next one. They say that not everything is a work of art, but that's ok because we never know which piece of writing will really resonate with people anyway.

I'm new. (To publishing at least, to writing this much as well.) I'm learning. But I'm doing it the way I think is going to give me the best start on my career.

And that doesn't involve PERFECTION. It involves getting things to a "good" point. For all I know, I'd ruin what I've written going for perfection anyway.


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

ShaneJeffery said:


> Okay, well this is like saying write badly to make money, and write well for no one.
> 
> Here's a question - Do some experienced writers here believe that everything you write should be finished / published? Or that you should wait until you're sure it hits your level of 'quality'? I get that you can write something great fast, of course, but you can also write crap fast. So after writing a piece of crap, do you move it to the backlist folder and start doing the opposite of what you did in order to write that (IE plan instead of discovery write), or do you publish the piece of crap with a smile, thinking every 99 cent sale is thirty cents towards rent, and then carry on writing your word count every day like a pro (Braveheart style)?


Well, if you think that quickly written as a sit on your bum do the job every day is 'crap' you are going to drive yourself nuts.

If I go to my plumber, and ask him to fix a leaking tap, he does it quickly, with less skill than it takes to put in an entire central heating system. It's cheaper and faster and is what I needed on that day.

The quality of his skills isn't the issue, its the task at hand, and it's demands.

Readers read for different reasons. A quick light easy read is not 'crap'. It's a quick light easy read. And a good quick light easy read is a thing of beauty. And if you can do it, you deserve to get paid.

As I said, decide who you are, and be it. But you can be both. But don't do both types of writing, under the same name - the audience needs to know which one they are buying.

If you don't want to be the person who can produce faster easily read less perfect stuff, don't. Never fix a leaky tap. Only ever put in the full central heating system.

Up to you.


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## 60865 (Jun 11, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> And that doesn't involve PERFECTION.


Ah, perfection ... just thinking about perfection and it's instant paralysis!
We may as well stop what ever it is we're doing since it may not be perfect! 
I'm going back to bed.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

I love the "cartoon you" on your site, for the record, Lady O.

If there's one perfect thing you can be proud of for the day, maybe that's it.


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## 60865 (Jun 11, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I love the "cartoon you" on your site, for the record, Lady O.
> 
> If there's one perfect thing you can be proud of for the day, maybe that's it.


Well thank you, you've made my day 
I've asked the same artist to do drawings for my next covers so I will have some original work.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

I respect those who finish a first draft.

I don't respect those who publish a first draft.

[rant on] I think that many (e-)books published are in the rough draft stage, not in the edited, polished phase. And some, despite the sloppy writing and dismal editing, sell like crazy. Why? Because the audience is inclined to forgive the errors, as long as the story is engaging. Does that mean you should write fast and sloppy, and publish just to make money? Well, you can. And if you're in this only for the money, and you have no integrity or respect for your audience, you should just take the path of least resistance and publish crap. Most of your intended audience (the ones who read crap and don't give a crap) will probably buy your crap and read your crap and even like your crap. You won't have many writer friends who will love and respect your work, but then, they are not your audience. Right? [rant off]


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

There are some discussions on my G+ writer circles about the business of writing.
I see posts like "no matter what, write x number of words per day".  I don't get that. There are times when I am so completely NOT able to write that those x number of words are just going to be x numbers of crud. Other times I have to remind myself to come up for air because the words, good words, just keep coming for hours at a stretch.

The idea of cranking out material because you have to (in order to pay the bills) is just not feasible for me. Maybe that is why there are so many complaints from readers about the quality of indie work. 
If you can blast out consistent work like MacDonald's, congratulations. But I still think that quality can't be rushed like that for most of us.


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## Ruth Ann Nordin (Sep 24, 2010)

ShaneJeffery said:


> Here's a question - Do some experienced writers here believe that everything you write should be finished / published? Or that you should wait until you're sure it hits your level of 'quality'? I get that you can write something great fast, of course, but you can also write crap fast. So after writing a piece of crap, do you move it to the backlist folder and start doing the opposite of what you did in order to write that (IE plan instead of discovery write), or do you publish the piece of crap with a smile, thinking every 99 cent sale is thirty cents towards rent, and then carry on writing your word count every day like a pro (Braveheart style)?


There are a lot of stories I started that I will never publish. I need to make sure every story I publish is one I'm passionate about writing the whole way through. That doesn't mean I don't have days where I don't feel like writing. I have lots of days where I have to force myself to sit down and write. But if the story itself is engaging me and is something I love, then I know it's worth putting more time and effort into. If I get halfway into a story and realize I no longer care what happens to the characters, I save it in a folder and move on. I might end up caring again and will be able to finish it then, but there are some unfinished stories that will never see the light of day again. I say quality counts over quantity.

Just my two cents.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Quiss said:


> There are some discussions on my G+ writer circles about the business of writing.
> I see posts like "no matter what, write x number of words per day". I don't get that. There are times when I am so completely NOT able to write that those x number of words are just going to be x numbers of crud. Other times I have to remind myself to come up for air because the words, good words, just keep coming for hours at a stretch.
> 
> The idea of cranking out material because you have to (in order to pay the bills) is just not feasible for me. Maybe that is why there are so many complaints from readers about the quality of indie work.
> If you can blast out consistent work like MacDonald's, congratulations. But I still think that quality can't be rushed like that for most of us.


I am currently on word 576 of 1900.

I don't get to sleep until I get to 1900. I don't get to keep the words unless they're decent. (Which means I can revise them into something which makes sense.)

It's 6:19AM.


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## 60865 (Jun 11, 2012)

Quiss said:


> The idea of cranking out material because you have to (in order to pay the bills) is just not feasible for me.


That's what I do at my day job: I write briefs for other lawyer's appeals. 
When it's pre-formated and you've been doing it for 25 years, it's possible.
If I had to do that for the night writing I would just stop and stick to the day job, so far it pays better!


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> I respect those who finish a first draft.
> 
> I don't respect those who publish a first draft.
> 
> [rant on] I think that many (e-)books published are in the rough draft stage, not in the edited, polished phase. And some, despite the sloppy writing and dismal editing, sell like crazy. Why? Because the audience is inclined to forgive the errors, as long as the story is engaging. Does that mean you should write fast and sloppy, and publish just to make money? Well, you can. And if you're in this only for the money, and you have no integrity or respect for your audience, you should just take the path of least resistance and publish crap. Most of your intended audience (the ones who read crap and don't give a crap) will probably buy your crap and read your crap and even like your crap. You won't have many writer friends who will love and respect your work, but then, they are not your audience. Right? [rant off]


Right. Can we be clear here. Writing fast does not equal crap. Writing slow does not equal perfect. You can write crap fast and slow. Amazing or what? What makes crap writing is just that. It's crap. Not the speed at which it is written.

Next amazing lesson for the day. Writing to earn money and being able to write fast and earn money also does not make it crap. Some writers are good. Some writers can write first draft and it is equal to finished draft. *Note, that does not mean said writers don't ensure their work is not riddled with typos, grammatical errors, plot holes, etc. As a matter of fact most good writers won't have a lot of the issues mentioned anyway.

Saying that someone writes fast and earns money from said writing and that makes it crap is plain wrong. And another thing? Why do we need the respect of other writers? If I have the respect of my audience, personally that is all that matters to me. But then I'm one of those "crappy fast writers who churns stuff out and earns a living from doing it." I have the respect of the cheques I earn and the audience I write for, and frankly that's all I need. /rant off


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

Mathew Reuther said:


> Writing is personal and we're all different.
> 
> That said, I know a lot of the "professionals" who have had long careers say that the important thing is to sit down, write, and get the work finished so you can move on to the next one. They say that not everything is a work of art, but that's ok because we never know which piece of writing will really resonate with people anyway.
> 
> ...


Hey Mathew (yep spelled that right  )

You're one of my favorite people here. I've enjoyed watching your journey from no stories till 4 + the box set. Your covers are great. I wasn't converted on the first two, but by the third one I totally got it. I've read some of Daybreaks and the writing is good. You don't have anything to worry about here. Interestingly enough, I think your best writing will be when you steer closer to reality and that of your own life. I'm not ruling out the Dire Mysteries as being great, but there's a unique level of connection coming through your blog / forum posts that didn't carry through to the fiction that I read.

Anyway, point is that your writing is that series is great and you're on the right path.

My theory about not finishing work is that it's bad and I shouldn't bother - but what really sucks is seeing yourself follow through only to regret all the time you spent on it. The writing itself isn't bad because it's a 'lighthearted read' - it barely makes any logical sense. Sometimes stretching those boundaries can work, but when it's done so nonsensically as this last story ... It's just a mistake.

I don't know how I landed myself here exactly... I sort of wrote the same way for the other pieces ...

Does it really all just come down to good idea then?

I think I really need something that is a broadsheet of horror/epicness/emotion that has the imagery of my first novel and realism of the second. Or maybe I should just try to make some money and write that artificial serial I dreamed up called 'Serial Killers' mmmmm...


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

Bilinda Ní Siodacaín said:


> Right. Can we be clear here. Writing fast does not equal crap. Writing slow does not equal perfect. You can write crap fast and slow. Amazing or what? What makes crap writing is just that. It's crap. Not the speed at which it is written.
> 
> Next amazing lesson for the day. Writing to earn money and being able to write fast and earn money also does not make it crap. Some writers are good. Some writers can write first draft and it is equal to finished draft. *Note, that does not mean said writers don't ensure their work is not riddled with typos, grammatical errors, plot holes, etc. As a matter of fact most good writers won't have a lot of the issues mentioned anyway.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

Quiss said:


> There are some discussions on my G+ writer circles about the business of writing.
> I see posts like "no matter what, write x number of words per day". I don't get that. There are times when I am so completely NOT able to write that those x number of words are just going to be x numbers of crud. Other times I have to remind myself to come up for air because the words, good words, just keep coming for hours at a stretch.
> 
> The idea of cranking out material because you have to (in order to pay the bills) is just not feasible for me. Maybe that is why there are so many complaints from readers about the quality of indie work.
> If you can blast out consistent work like MacDonald's, congratulations. But I still think that quality can't be rushed like that for most of us.


And this makes a great argument for the creative artist side. I'm thinking I'm headed this way, I just need to find that 'right' story again.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

I'm writing on a memoir right now. In between Dire stories. It should come out this year at some point. Maybe that will be the deeper connection you're looking for.

I'll be the first person to admit that Dire isn't all there yet. But the pieces are being put in place for the grand story, and it's a lot more than just cases here and there. You get the first taste of it in The Partners series, but there's a long arc planned, and I've made sure that there's a lot of depth in all the characters.

I do write them fast, and I should be writing at this second, but part of how I write is to let the pieces rattle around until they settle.

Well, that's what I call the undisciplined mess of a writing style I currently make due with. 

My theory is this: start with an idea (magic replaces technology in a modern-type detective story) and then get the bits and pieces roughly laid out (i have pictures and character histories) before you get into the writing. If you get these two things, the big idea, and the pieces that populate it, you are already well on your way to not making it a light read (meaning superficial in this instance) even if that's what it lends itself to.

Another thought: never regret your writing, because everything you write teaches you something. Even if the story isn't one you adore at the end, it taught you things.

Want to know what piece of writing I learned most from?

A multi-generational saga of african-american women from the civil war through modern day. I ghostwrote it for someone else, but that single novel taught me more about myself as a writer than anything I've written yet.

Crazy stuff.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Bilinda Ní Siodacaín said:


> . /rant off


I just went back through the posts above and am not sure that a rant is warranted. Unless I missed something, no one here automatically equates writing fast with writing crap.
Some of us have a few hours a day to write, others can do it 24/7. That's one reason for fast publication.
Some need time to formulate their words, others can pour them onto the page like snap.
Some feel the need for endless revision, some don't.

I don't know why you feel attacked in some fashion. I have seen comments about speed-vs-quality hit a nerve in other threads, too.
The OP's question was well thought out and I'm sure he wasn't addressing anyone specifically

The fact remains that there IS a lot of crud being published by indies who just want to get rich quick and there should be some consideration by all of us whether what we're about to publish is actually ready for publication, or just has to meet some deadline or personal word count goal.

If yours is ready, then it's ready.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm just curious here, you say: "But with this writing fast for money approach, do you publish things you aren't 100 percent on? Do you write Chapter 2 after a first chapter you're not keen on?"

Why would I write crap intentional or not? Everything I write I am 100% on, hence why I write it. If I write crap it gets dumped.

However, we all have days where we look at our work and no matter how we dress it up, it's rubbish. That doesn't always mean it is. Perspective.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Bilinda Ní Siodacaín said:


> However, we all have days where we look at our work and no matter how we dress it up, it's rubbish.


I like to refer to this as Tuesday.


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## LinaG (Jun 18, 2012)

Interesting topic.

I think finishing everything you begin isn't as important as learning why it should be abandoned.  Say you are 225 pages in to a western, and you've decided you don't like writing westerns, the premise is flawed and, and oops! You were still learning about conflict and so you there isn't any, ie, your characters are running around doing saying/doing interesting things (and not so interesting things). You could "abandon" this novel BUT you have a takeaway from your time at the keyboard. You will be able to use what you've learned to make your next work better.

Sure, you could fix it. But why? You learned that writing westerns isn't your thing, and you've got 225 pages to wrestle to the ground, plus the rest of the book to write. A monster with seven arms and five heads, battling to suck time from your life.  

Probably somewhere in those starts you learned about pacing, dialogue, description, or found your voice. Maybe you just learned that, boy-o-boy do you need to plot in advance!  Nothing is wasted if you can take something away from it.

If you like a WIP, still see promise in it, then you probably should finish it. Writing those first chapters is like having a crush, so they can be easy. The problems in the middle and end of the book are different than the beginning.

As for that short story... Sit on it for a month or two (not in the Fonzie sense). In time you might see the element that needs adjusting so it works.

Do not "publish it anyway." Unless by that you mean print it off and give it to your mom. Then you should go for it.

Your pal,

Li


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

Quiss said:


> I just went back through the posts above and am not sure that a rant is warranted. Unless I missed something, no one here automatically equates writing fast with writing crap.
> Some of us have a few hours a day to write, others can do it 24/7. That's one reason for fast publication.
> Some need time to formulate their words, others can pour them onto the page like snap.
> Some feel the need for endless revision, some don't.
> ...


I wasn't directly addressing the OP in this case. More a general reply to the thread. I made it a rant because I'm tired of seeing fast being equated with rubbish. Which a lot of people seem to think. As for the overall quality of the indie publishing world? I don't concern myself with it. I find simply working on my own writing consumes all of my time. The quality of someone else's writing is not up to me, nor is it my concern.

Personally I don't feel attacked, but hey, we're all free to read things how we want


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

In my case, I work for a certain number of hours everyday (well most days - life does get in the way) but it isn't always word count production.  It can be thinking about the options for the next scene, revising the outline, editing parts that are already written, etc.  I don't write a scene before I am ready.  But I do finish one project at a time.  Painting cover art counts too in my case.


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## 60865 (Jun 11, 2012)

Quiss said:


> I just went back through the posts above and am not sure that a rant is warranted. Unless I missed something, no one here automatically equates writing fast with writing crap.
> Some of us have a few hours a day to write, others can do it 24/7. That's one reason for fast publication.
> Some need time to formulate their words, others can pour them onto the page like snap.
> Some feel the need for endless revision, some don't.


Thanks you, I was wondering if I was the only puzzled about that rant.
Some have talent and some don't 
and then some have things that come easily and other work at it very hard.
I'm sincerely happy for you that you have no doubt about your work and I wish you to keep on cashing all this recognition but please don't bite those who have questions.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I like to refer to this as Tuesday.


Weird it's nearly always a Monday for me... Must be the let down after the thrill of the writing weekend


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I'm writing on a memoir right now. In between Dire stories. It should come out this year at some point. Maybe that will be the deeper connection you're looking for.
> 
> I'll be the first person to admit that Dire isn't all there yet. But the pieces are being put in place for the grand story, and it's a lot more than just cases here and there. You get the first taste of it in The Partners series, but there's a long arc planned, and I've made sure that there's a lot of depth in all the characters.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice, Mathew. I look forward to your memoir. Not that I meant a connection that literal, lol, but I know you will write a perfect story there. (Or better put, Something intelligent, free flowing, insightful and full of meaning). Not to put too much money on you as a horse, but I just intuitively notice things about your writing which really speak to me. You have great clarity 

For me, starting out 'my career' as a writer, I kind of want a schedule of sorts to implement. The first book I worked on for a year, without thoughts of publication, just wrote whenever I felt like. Then I dragged it over to Critiquecircle and had fun there for six months. Of course, taking writing seriously, you can't expect to make money live off if you apply this routine for every year. With the second book, I just went with my gut (no outlining) and it worked, I know it worked. Then I go with my gut this weekend, and I hate it. I guess it's all a learning process. But I am reaching for a higher level of security in writing - meaning, knowing what's going to work and how to go about it.

Next strategy I'm going to implement is extensive outlining, but I worry that because the first two books didn't need this that I might be wasting my time / or writing myself into a corner. Maybe I worry too much. I don't know. Just learning the ropes as you say lol.

I do intend to read all of 'The Partners' by the way, should do before March is out. I like the whole vibe of it you have going there, and your plans to further deepen it sound true to the course.


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## Jude Hardin (Feb 5, 2011)

Forget about what other writers do. Do what works for you. Whatever produces the best work, not necessarily the fastest.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

Shane, I'm just wondering. You said you could write both novels without extensive outlining. You tried the same practice with a short this weekend and it didn't work. Perhaps that was because short story writing is so utterly different to novel writing. Maybe for you, you'll need to extensively outline when it comes to short stories? As opposed to the way you write your novels. Just a thought.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

ShaneJeffery said:


> I do intend to read all of 'The Partners' by the way, should do before March is out. I like the whole vibe of it you have going there, and your plans to further deepen it sound true to the course.


There's 6 planned bundles, so 5 more like The Partners, and at least two novels. That's my 2013 schedule. It's going to kill me. I feel it. 

But I wanted to push myself. I'm coming off of years of not writing like I wanted to, and years before that of the people closest to me not believing in me.

I need very little in life, but I do need a supportive partner. I've got that now.

Look out world.





Bilinda Ní Siodacaín said:


> Shane, I'm just wondering. You said you could write both novels without extensive outlining. You tried the same practice with a short this weekend and it didn't work. Perhaps that was because short story writing is so utterly different to novel writing. Maybe for you, you'll need to extensively outline when it comes to short stories? As opposed to the way you write your novels. Just a thought.


This is worth considering. I find that shorts work better for me when I have a decent idea af the steps. (It's why the one I am writing not writing at this exact second has me up past 7am.)


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## That one girl (Apr 12, 2011)

If you're having trouble, may I suggest getting a few beta readers who are willing to beta read as you complete each chapter? I was on a very tight deadline for my last novel, so I asked my betas to accept the book one chapter at a time. I sent at least one chapter every day (with a couple of days off) and got the first draft down in 22 days. Then I did six line edits in five days because I had over 30 reviewers waiting for ARCs. Give yourself a deadline then get yourself a few people who refuse to let you slack off.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

That one girl said:


> If you're having trouble, may I suggest getting a few beta readers who are willing to beta read as you complete each chapter? I was on a very tight deadline for my last novel, so I asked my betas to accept the book one chapter at a time. I sent at least one chapter every day (with a couple of days off) and got the first draft down in 22 days. Then I did six line edits in five days because I had over 30 reviewers waiting for ARCs. Give yourself a deadline then get yourself a few people who refuse to let you slack off.


I was getting crushed with a 3 week turnaround on the ever expanding story of doom (a.k.a. Sunset Ride) so I sent off the pieces as I revised them over the course of two days. It worked in the end. I got it out on time.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

Mathew Reuther said:


> There's 6 planned bundles, so 5 more like The Partners, and at least two novels. That's my 2013 schedule. It's going to kill me. I feel it.
> 
> But I wanted to push myself. I'm coming off of years of not writing like I wanted to, and years before that of the people closest to me not believing in me.
> 
> ...


Nah - you've got the right idea Matt. Don't quit. Me, I don't know that I would be able to commit myself to one character / setting for a full year, but that could be just because I haven't found the right one (!). I admire your work ethic, and can see there are others too who have been swept along this course. This is a very different world than trying to get traditionally published, as it was in the old days...



Bilinda Ní Siodacaín said:


> Shane, I'm just wondering. You said you could write both novels without extensive outlining. You tried the same practice with a short this weekend and it didn't work. Perhaps that was because short story writing is so utterly different to novel writing. Maybe for you, you'll need to extensively outline when it comes to short stories? As opposed to the way you write your novels. Just a thought.


I appreciate your analysis here. Some further information - I set out to write this story as a novel. Five parts, ten chapters per part. I wrote the first five chapters yesterday, and then today I reached Chapter Nine still thinking it was a novel. Then I went and laid down on my bed and realized - I just had to end it. Find some way to tie everything together. In truth, I haven't gone back to reread it, so I don't really know the extent of the damage to my abrupt ending...

It could be argued that I shouldn't have ended it, but just as I trust the voice that tells me what sentence comes next and then which paragraph, I trusted the voice that told me, END THIS STORY NOW.

Yeah. So how that for an evaluation. Your novel you just finished is so bad it's a short story


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I can't imagine publishing anything that I thought was "rubbish" or "crap." That would be like a little kid who's just getting toilet trained walking into the living room with a turd and saying, "Look what I did!"

I have a first novel chained in the attic. It would be an act of cruelty against all of humanity if I published it. But I don't burn it, because it has some good ideas in it and I might get it out and work on it someday and make something of it. It isn't "abandoned" until I say it is, even if it's been set aside for over 20 years.

Shane, your story may be rubbish now but let it get cold/ripen/fester (choose your metaphor for setting it aside and letting your subconscious work on it), and one day you'll be walking down the street and suddenly you'll go, "Ah-ha! THAT'S what I should have done with that story!" Then you'll get back to it and write something you're proud of.

Just by-the-by, I don't believe in forcing out x-many words per day. Some days they come easily, some days they come hard, some days...well, some days I'm better off working on marketing or research or anything but writing words. I believe in working daily, for as long as your schedule allows, achieving whatever you can. It'll get done.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

ShaneJeffery said:


> Me, I don't know that I would be able to commit myself to one character / setting for a full year, but that could be just because I haven't found the right one (!)


To be honest I have some stories I really, really want to work on right now that I'm having to put aside. I have a paranormal with a premise stemming from my son's death that has been begging to be developed for three years. I've got a YA trilogy with 40k words down on it, which is just shy of the first third of the first novel. A zombie origins story. A sci-fi espionage series. A sci-fi AI romance (the story of which continues on for 10,000 years and more...)

So many ideas. So little time.

And only one I've allowed myself this year.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

That one girl said:


> If you're having trouble, may I suggest getting a few beta readers who are willing to beta read as you complete each chapter? I was on a very tight deadline for my last novel, so I asked my betas to accept the book one chapter at a time. I sent at least one chapter every day (with a couple of days off) and got the first draft down in 22 days. Then I did six line edits in five days because I had over 30 reviewers waiting for ARCs. Give yourself a deadline then get yourself a few people who refuse to let you slack off.


This would be useful if I didn't know if the writing was good or bad.

I did though, have three abandoned starts to stories before I went all gladiator for this one. Funny thing is, of those three starts, this was clearly the worst. So my opinion doesn't count for everything. But I made that commitment to finish... Guess I will try to finish the one I was working on before this, and then perhaps the one before that. I just hope they don't run themselves into deep end like this one did.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2013)

Jan Strnad said:


> I can't imagine publishing anything that I thought was "rubbish" or "crap." That would be like a little kid who's just getting toilet trained walking into the living room with a turd and saying, "Look what I did!"
> 
> I have a first novel chained the attic. It would be an act of cruelty against all of humanity if I published it. But I don't burn it, because it has some good ideas in it and I might get it out and work on it someday and make something of it. It isn't "abandoned" until I say it is, even if it's been set aside for over 20 years.
> 
> ...


I love your advice here, Jan. I think what you say definitely has merit. I'll just file it away, and hope I luck out next time. Hopefully one day I can answer these types of questions for people starting out 

Also, love your concept for 'The Summer We Lost Alice'. Just reading the description had my muse awoken in the dead of night 



Mathew Reuther said:


> To be honest I have some stories I really, really want to work on right now that I'm having to put aside. I have a paranormal with a premise stemming from my son's death that has been begging to be developed for three years. I've got a YA trilogy with 40k words down on it, which is just shy of the first third of the first novel. A zombie origins story. A sci-fi espionage series. A sci-fi AI romance (the story of which continues on for 10,000 years and more...)
> 
> So many ideas. So little time.
> 
> And only one I've allowed myself this year.


You could always break it up if it becomes to encumber-some though. Sort of treat it like Seasons with TV shows. I'm sure you've already thought of that, and know what you're doing - I get the career comes first, but you want to keep yourself happy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I like to refer to this as Tuesday.


lol!


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

Quiss said:


> There are some discussions on my G+ writer circles about the business of writing.
> I see posts like "no matter what, write x number of words per day". I don't get that. There are times when I am so completely NOT able to write that those x number of words are just going to be x numbers of crud. Other times I have to remind myself to come up for air because the words, good words, just keep coming for hours at a stretch.


Words per day is like exercise. If you want to get in shape, exercise an hour a day. The only way to get better at something is to practice and analyse your results, talent helps. Even the best have their off days, but if they string together then something else is going on. How well do you know your writing habits? Are you writing in a different location or time of day? Are you mildly hypoglycemic and haven't eaten before you started writing? Or are you just keyed up because you've been watching The Walking Dead at night and not getting enough sleep?


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## Claudia King (Oct 27, 2012)

Who's got that ven diagram about "the ideal job"? 

As with everything, I feel like it's about finding a balance between doing what you love, and doing what's practical. I know my current money-maker serial started off as something I didn't have much interest in as a writer, but as it progressed I found ways to make it interesting and stimulating to me, and I think the story improved as a result.

Heck, I wouldn't even have gotten started in erotica if I hadn't wanted some way to pay the bills before I started working on my magnum opus!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

TattooedWriter said:


>


It may be a Sisyphean task, but apparently it gives you a great bod.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Bilinda Ní Siodacaín said:


> I wasn't directly addressing the OP in this case. More a general reply to the thread.


But you quoted my 'rant' which was about people publishing first drafts that should've been published. Anyway, I don't want to add fuel to the fire, so I send you a PM reply.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

An Opinion from the Fast & Crappy camp.

First off, as others have said, decide the following;

Why do you write?
How do you write (panster or plotter)?
How fast do you write?
Are you a "first draft is best" or "writing is rewriting" type of writer?
What are your writing goals?

Second, again as others have said, we are all different. (And that's a good thing.)

Third, there is no "right" or "wrong." There is only what works best for you. The idea of finishing everything you start seems a bit absurd. I mean, if you know it's crap, it seems a waste of time to continue putting effort into it. I think this is where outlining comes in. I'm a major outliner. To me, the creating of the STORY is in the outline. The TELLING of the story is in the writing. (Not to be confused with "show don't tell.") By the time I finish an outline, I know I have a winner and I am so excited to write it that I can crank out the final draft in about a month.

That brings me to my next point. I believe that the first draft is most likely the best draft, as it will be the closest to being truly YOUR voice, which hopefully is what your readers love. Now, before you all start jumping up from your seats to shake your fists and scream at me, I'm certainly not talking about typo's and grammatical errors and what not. Those are a no no. However, I believe that I am the least qualified person on the planet to copy edit my own work, or proofread it for that matter.

I would love the time and freedom to spend 6 months to a year making a perfect manuscript with prose that melts the reader's mind and leaves them in a poodle of blissful ooze. (Hey, ooze can be blissful!) However, if I tried that route, it would take me forever to finish each book, and I've got bills to pay. If you're going to make a business out of writing, then you have to find a balance point between "art" and "productivity." If you're lucky, and you manage to develop a method that works, you may even be able to have both. Some do.


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

ShaneJeffery said:


> Did you find that just writing the first thing that came to your head was the successful strategy? IE making sure you maintained your daily word counts no matter what?
> 
> Or was it important to extensively labor over each project and make sure you were bettering each work that preceded it?


I don't worry about my previous book unless it is a series book, in which case I have to go back and make sure I'm following a character exactly. Though I admit sometimes my writing gets a bit stale because I'm writing just to hit that word count, and I've written enough books to notice when this happens. During editing if I find this has happened and its truly atrocious (which usually occurs around the 2000 word count per day), I'll redraft that sequence from a new outline (from memory), but it will be the first thing I do the next day. I might also write out by hand on paper the previous scene to prick those neurons into the creative mindset.

Writing is a LOT like programming. If after the finished work you start going back and "inserting code" in spots carelessly, it might disrupt the flow or mindset of something you wrote weeks or months ago, and crash, just like code will. I used to think this only applied to paragraphs within the same chapter, but now know it can affect chapter-to-chapter too. Balance is everything.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

Rykymus said:


> An Opinion from the Fast & Crappy camp.
> 
> First off, as others have said, decide the following;
> 
> ...


+1


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

ShaneJeffery said:


> With the second book, I just went with my gut (no outlining) and it worked, I know it worked. Then I go with my gut this weekend, and I hate it. I guess it's all a learning process. But I am reaching for a higher level of security in writing - meaning, knowing what's going to work and how to go about it.


Different novels require different techniques. I once wrote a 70,000-80,000 novel in two weeks during nano. I went with my gut, because it worked with that novel. While I would love to replicate that process, I have yet to, because no novel is quite like that novel. Think of it like people--you have to handle different people in different ways because they are individuals. If you want to bump up your speed and consistently produce a product, then you may have to associate yourself only with specific individuals/novels.

Also, self-analysis is important in this process. I suggest keeping a writing journal and include in it your thoughts on the work, your hopes and plans, your insights, your processes, and your data (word count per day, topic, etc.)--anything that will help you discover how this novel differs from others.

Jodi


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Jan Strnad said:


> I can't imagine publishing anything that I thought was "rubbish" or "crap." That would be like a little kid who's just getting toilet trained walking into the living room with a turd and saying, "Look what I did!"


As a writer, I am in constant doubt of my objectivity about everything I've written. As a cynic, I've noticed that most of the time, when... let's continue with your metaphor for a moment... a kid is walking around holding a turd saying "Look, this smells amazing!", most people who are less, um, emotionally invested in that particular bowel movement, strongly disagree.

Pride has no connection to quality, is what I guess I'm trying to get at.

I've written some books that I, as an author, think are pretty darned awesome. To judge from the response from (metaphorically speaking) both readers, that awesomeness - real or imagined - doesn't automatically translate to enjoyment.

Sadly. :/


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

It's been my experience (and I'm sure others have different) that speed and quality have little connection. I find the work I write quickest is my best, whereas if I'm laboring over something and going back for constant revisions it means I'm struggling with something about the book. Maybe the plot is weak or I'm not connecting to the characters, but something is off. With enough rewrites I may eventually wind up with something publishable but it's not generally going to be my strongest work. My strongest work is something I wrote when I was really plugged into the story. I could envision each scene so clearly the words almost wrote themselves and my hand got cramps from trying to scribble fast enough to keep up with my thoughts. Those writing sessions are magic and I wish I could always do it that way. Those fastdrafted books are the kind I would do every time if I could. Unfortunately, my brain isn't always that engaged.

Having said all that, I'm certainly not advocating dumping the work out on Amazon as-is. The stuff I write fast is more prone to typos and because I'm so connected to the scenes I sometimes write unclearly or skim over parts I plan to come back to later. All that has to be cleaned up. Sometimes new scenes are added and old ones are scratched out. But I have a lot of respect for authors who can write a clean first draft that requires little change. It's a very useful skill.

Also, on the subject of an author forcing themselves to write X number of words per day, while it's not something I consistently do myself, I'm impressed with people who have that discipline. Some days it may feel like everything coming out of the pen is crap but a famous novelist once said, "You can fix crap. You can't fix a blank page".


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

I started writing something once and thought it was drivel, just drivel.  I let it put me off of writing for days or maybe even weeks, not wanting to go near the thing.  When I finally did go back to it, I realized it wasn't bad at all.  It needed some tweaks but it wasn't drivel.

And, sometimes I sit down to write and I don't have the "voice" I need.  I've learned to recognize when I don't have the "voice" because it means the work is most likely going to require some heavy handed rewriting.  In those times, I am finding it best to take a step back and do something else.

A real palate cleaner for me is to read some good writing.  Some seriously good writing.  It influences my "voice", my sentence structure, even my mental picture of what's happening within a scene.  It is the best way that I know of to find the connected voice that I need to once more approach a story in a way that I can feel like I am telling it well, that I am connected to it.

So, as to the awful story you wrote -- maybe it's not awful. Let it rest and go back to it some day.  Maybe it will have a spark you're not able to see at this particular moment.  Beyond that, take a breath, clear your head and find a moment in space and time that you can feel a connection to and then describe it for us in your next story.

As for write fast (and possibly crap) or slow perfection, only you and your bank account can truly answer that question.  I think it needs to be some happy place in between.   I think the answer needs to be whatever you need the answer to be.  You know your situation best.  Be careful not to alienate fans with inconsistent writing but you could address that by having a different pen name.  Anything especially sub-par that you still want the opportunity to make a buck on could go under your other pen name.  Stuff you're proud to hang your hat on could go under your main name.  In that way, you get the best of both worlds.  You get to make a little extra and you get to be a perfectionist.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

ShaneJeffery said:


> This weekend I wrote a 5000 word short, I know is bad. Wasn't trying to be bad either. Didn't know it was that bad until I finished it. I seriously think it ranks up with one of the worst pieces of writing I've completed. And then, following the brave method, I will write everything, I will finish everything, I will always meet my word counts, I will publish everything - and then I get this turd.
> 
> I seriously was contemplating forcing myself to publish it too. I won't however, because I just can't. I thought the secret was to just make sure you finish, because after all my abandonments (both good stories and bad) I thought that was the way.
> 
> Now I wonder if I need to outline more. I don't know.


I, too, am a prolific abandoner of crap, so I feel your pain. This year is meant to be my Year of Finishing Stuff (hunting down all the started stuff I have sitting on my hard drive and finishing as much of it as I can).

A friend of mine, who has several published novels and a good dozen or more finished but not yet published, swears that finishing is the most important step to improving your writing, because finishing gives you an experience that starting does not. I think she's right on the money with that one.

She also says that just because it's finished doesn't mean it should be published, because finished doesn't necessarily mean it's ready for public consumption. I agree with that, too. Sometimes it needs a good edit and polish. Sometimes it needs a complete overhaul. Sometimes you maybe just weren't ready to write that particular story and it needs to sit for a while before you know what you have to do to fix it (as an aside, Maggie Stiefvater said she tried to write The Scorpio Races several times before she got it right). I'm in the middle of an overhaul like that right now. The story I'm working on started off as a 7,000 word short story, and it sat on my hard drive for several years because I knew it needed something but I didn't know what. But when I pulled it out this month and started working on it, I figured out how to fix it right away, because I have a lot more experience now than I did when I wrote it.

Can I ask, what is it about your short story that you think is bad? Cuz a lot of things that seem bad can be easily fixed if you just give it a bit of time and patience.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

You are your first reader. If you think it's crap, most likely so will your readers. Why? Because once you establish a readership, they're more likely to have you "tuned in" and so think a lot like you. If you're just starting out, chances are, you won't think you've written crap.

On the other hand, if you think a story you wrote later in your career is worse than one you wrote earlier, maybe it's just because your internal critic has gotten a lot harder to please.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> You are your first reader. If you think it's crap, most likely so will your readers.


Damn it! I thought there were so many people reading that, no matter whatI wrote, someone out there would think it's great.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> d*mn it! I thought there were so many people reading that, no matter whatI wrote, someone out there would think it's great.


Like I know what I'm talking about


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

First of all, Shane, you're probably too close to the story at the moment. Let it rest for a few days or weeks, however long you need, and then come back to it. I always find that whatever I'm working on at the moment is not as good as my previous work either. However, when I look at it again with fresh eyes, it's usually okay or at least not nearly as bad as I thought.

About publishing something you don't like, two of my bestselling stories are stories I didn't particularly like. I wrote them for money tailored to the needs of a specific webzine and I was never very happy with them. And when I started indie publishing, I wondered whether I should republish those particular stories at all. However, they were competently written and fixing what bothered me about the stories wasn't much of a problem. And they sell really well. Unless something is completely unsalvagable - and only you can decide whether it is - even a bad story can be fixed eventually.

As for abandoning stories, I never abandon stories per se, but when I find out that whatever I'm writing isn't working, I let it rest for a while and go work on something else. When I come back to it, I often find that I can finish the story now. And if I still don't know what to do with it, then I'll simply let it rest some more.

As for writing fast and writing every day, I can certainly understand Bilinda's reaction, because "writing fast equals wrting crap" is a very common prejudice. And it's wrong. Some people write fast, some people write slow. Everybody has their own speed and speed usually doesn't have a whole lot of connection with quality. I'm not a big fan of equating writing X number of words every day with McDonalds either. I set a daily wordcount goal for myself, because if I don't, writing would fall to the wayside all too often and I'd get nothing done. Doesn't mean that I force myself to squeeze out words on something that isn't working. In fact, my daily wordcount is mostly divided between different projects. If you (general you, not addressed to a specific person) work differently, great for you.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2013)

Shayne said:


> Can I ask, what is it about your short story that you think is bad? Cuz a lot of things that seem bad can be easily fixed if you just give it a bit of time and patience.


Basically, I've never intended on publishing short stories in general, so just on the surface it's not going to hold up. I really dislike the idea of seeing it there with the other two (not sure if that's immature or not..)

As CC Kelly said - it's a structure problem. Kind of hard to explain, but the story is all over the place. It starts off in one time, then moves back seven years, then moves back another ten, and then starts to link all the dots together. By the end, some of what happened is either a dream or psychosis - which wasn't intended. I won't say that it's 'silly' but it could definitely be perceived as such. Main problem, all that aside is, that the story is taking a step backward from the previous work in terms of craft. I need to keep moving forward if I can.



Rykymus said:


> An Opinion from the Fast & Crappy camp.
> 
> First off, as others have said, decide the following;
> 
> ...


I write because it's my obsession. Each story will have different motivations.

I think I'm a panster. The second book was written that way, the first book (which is superior imo) had an outline that I constantly revised as I went through the story. The majority of it was made up.

How fast do I write? I can write 2000 words a day with medium effort.

First draft is best (rewriting sections of a w.i.p. usually leads to me abandoning it)

What are you writing goals? Well, I'm in this for the long haul. I hope one day I will have made a name for myself. Ideally, I guess my goal is to write what sells (within reason - I won't touch romance or erotica).

What you say about outlining brings me to my current crossroads. Today I see two clear choices - pick up my last abandoned WIP which I don't think is bad, but it's not something I'm passionate or excited about. I could write 2000 - 3000 words easy on that without planning - no idea how I will feel about that at the end of the day.

OR I can start outlining some other story I haven't figured out yet, with the goal of writing something beautiful and epic, that attempts to better all previous work. I don't know.

Oh yeah - and option three is I could work on editing and publishing a short story (doesn't have to be yesterday's one, I have a few in the wings).

Great thoughts from everyone else here. You guys are great


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Anotherdreamer (Jan 21, 2013)

Just because you think it's bad doesnt mean it is. Stephen King threw out Carrie. His wife dug it out of the garbage. One of the most amazing things I read in his writing book was how he never knew if "he was shoveling shit sitting down". I think that was the quote. 
You are probably more experienced than I, but my plan is to hopefully write every book better than the last. As long as you're moving forward, you'll get where you are going.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2013)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Here is my suggestion. Since the short story appears to be a nemesis, use it as a learning exercise, before moving on.
> 
> Here's my 2 cents on writing short stories.
> 
> ...


Thanks this is excellent advice. *Copy and paste* lol 

I think I will let it sit for a bit before coming back to it, and see if I can make it into something that works. It definitely has a theme though running through it - which is great - but I guess it's not something I'm invested in. Ah, well. That was just my weekend. What did I expect?

Your covers rock by the way CC. Your writing seems pretty intelligent too


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## A. Rosaria (Sep 12, 2010)

With everything in life, when we start doing something we are limitless into our capability because we know nothing. Once we start learning the craft, by knowing more than before, we limit our self to the newly gained knowledge/skill, once we master the craft we return to the limitlessness of a pure beginner and the knowledge and skill of knowing.

A beginner can make beautiful and fresh art, but it's more like a fluke than skill, once the beginner becomes a journeyman, he will show more skill, but the art will not be as beautiful or fresh, once a master, he will have the skill and knowledge to make art as fresh like a beginner could, but this time it's not a fluke but done with greater technique.

I think that's why a previous work can seem much better than a later one.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Which is why I try and avoid perfecting my stuff too much. It can have the effect of sanitizing a work, and stripping the soul from it.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

One of the main things about writing short stories, is that it's not a short novel. That's a novella. A short story (mostly) has 1 POV, 1 storyline, 1 theme. 

I write both novels and short stories, set in the same series with the same character(s), but the short stories require a different mindset from the novels. With the novels I have several POVs that change per scene/chapter, storylines weaving together and intersecting sometimes, several conflicts going at the same time, deep characters studies, etcetera.

My short stories, the Katla KillFiles, are all centered around one of the 20+ contracts fulfilled by freelance assassin Katla before the events in the first novel, Reprobate. So, the KillFiles are mainly from Katla's POV, and are concerned with one goal (the successful execution of a difficult assassination). The KillFiles are linked to the Amsterdam Assassin Series, but not necessary reading. They provide insight in the protagonist's abilities and backstory, but neither are necessary to enjoy the novels. For me, the KillFiles are a way to promote the novels, and to keep readers engaged with the series while they wait for the next novel to be published. Although the first two stories are free, and the other stories will be 99c, I still put forth my best effort, because someone who is disappointed by a KillFile might not buy my novels, despite the difference in the way the stories are told.

However, I've been told that writing short stories is a different craft from writing novels, and not many writers are supposed to be able to write both. I let readers judge whether I'm qualified to write both, but to the OP, if your novels come easy to you, and the short stories are hard to write, perhaps the short form is just 'not your thing'. Nobody is required to do well at all kinds of writing, and in some aspects it pays to listen to your gut and follow your heart, and just write what you're best at.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> However, I've been told that writing short stories is a different craft from writing novels, and not many writers are supposed to be able to write both. I let readers judge whether I'm qualified to write both, but to the OP, if your novels come easy to you, and the short stories are hard to write, perhaps the short form is just 'not your thing'. Nobody is required to do well at all kinds of writing, and in some aspects it pays to listen to your gut and follow your heart, and just write what you're best at.


I think more to the point is that people often choose not to develop facility with varying lengths of fiction. Not that it's not possible, just that they feel disinclined to try. But varying forms are skills, like any other, and can be worked on to develop them.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I think more to the point is that people often choose not to develop facility with varying lengths of fiction. Not that it's not possible, just that they feel disinclined to try. But varying forms are skills, like any other, and can be worked on to develop them.


I agree, but you can also put your efforts where they are best suited. I prefer the long form, but I put effort in learning how to write the short form. Not because I think it's easier, I think it's a different discipline. In Olympic Ice skating, some are better in the short sprint, other in the five or ten kilometer races. It's a sense of pace that comes naturally. I ride motorcycles and used to be a courier. For enjoyment, I ride secondary roads all day long, averaging 800-1000 kilometers in 10-12 hours. I know there are people who consider that kind of riding grueling and insane, because their attention starts to flag after three or four hours of riding. To me, it's natural and comes effortless. The longer I ride, the more I relax. Weirdly enough, I get bored on motorways and riding straight roads tires me out in two or three hours.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Yes, but Sven Kramer can skate just fine at varying distances, and to be honest I buy more that musculature is better suited to physical activities of a certain type than that our brains are wired to only work with certain forms of fiction.  So if Sven can come back from injury and win a couple of all-arounds then we can all manage to write varying lengths.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> Yes, but Sven Kramer can skate just fine at varying distances, and to be honest I buy more that musculature is better suited to physical activities of a certain type than that our brains are wired to only work with certain forms of fiction.  *So if Sven can come back from injury and win a couple of all-arounds then we can all manage to write varying lengths.*


Sven is a world-class athlete. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but that doesn't meant that all writers should be able to write all sorts of stories - short, novella, novel, epic - with equal skill. My writing is more suited to the long form, 100K novels are easy for me. I can't just condense a 100K down to 10K and call it a short story. Short stories require another approach. An approach that might unsuited to some writers. Just like some of us can easily fill a blog with interesting ramblings, and others are stumped for material. Some people are 'all-rounders', others are 'specialists'. Neither is better than the other, and if one desires to become an all-rounder, more power to you. Just remember, if you fail, that some things are just not meant to be. We can't all be Sven.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> Sven is a world-class athlete.


No doubt. But again, it's easier for us to use our brains than him to use his muscles.



> There will always be exceptions to the rule, but that doesn't meant that all writers should be able to write all sorts of stories - short, novella, novel, epic - with equal skill.


Equal skill, no, but sufficient skill, yes. It's just a matter of taking the time to develop the skill.



> My writing is more suited to the long form, 100K novels are easy for me. I can't just condense a 100K down to 10K and call it a short story. Short stories require another approach. An approach that might unsuited to some writers. Just like some of us can easily fill a blog with interesting ramblings, and others are stumped for material. Some people are 'all-rounders', others are 'specialists'. Neither is better than the other, and if one desires to become an all-rounder, more power to you.


I find all of these excuses, not realities. Any writer can manage to, given sufficient focus, learn to write to a specific length. Now, many choose not to because they have no desire to do so, or because they don't want to take the time. But the potential is there. Like the ability to learn how to do algebra, or put a birdhouse together.



> Just remember, if you fail, that some things are just not meant to be. We can't all be Sven.


If I fail, I try again until I don't fail any more. 

Or maybe I'm just Sven.  (I wish I were close to as tall.)


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2013)

In my opinion, it will be much easier for an avid writer of novels / novellas to complete a good short story (having never tried) than vice versa. It would also take much less time to learn short stories, as opposed to novels. 

Every writer is different, and yeah, I hate that bland statement. Going by my experience - you tell me to write a short about the ceiling, an article about the carpet, a novel about my hand, and as a writer I'll come up with something.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> Which is why I try and avoid perfecting my stuff too much. It can have the effect of sanitizing a work, and stripping the soul from it.


Uhhh, yes, this-this is my strategy as well. So, if you see run on sentences, settings left unclear, disjointed logic flow, redundant words, awkward sentence structures, it's notthat I didn't know it was there, it's that I'm leaving it in to keep it real. Get some street cred.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Uhhh, yes, this-this is my strategy as well. So, if you see run on sentences, settings left unclear, disjointed logic flow, redundant words, awkward sentence structures, it's not that I didn't know it was there, it's that I'm leaving it in to keep it real. Get some street cred.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> Uhhh, yes, this-this is my strategy as well. So, if you see run on sentences, settings left unclear, disjointed logic flow, redundant words, awkward sentence structures, it's notthat I didn't know it was there, it's that I'm leaving it in to keep it real. Get some street cred.


That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

All about keeping it real.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

ShaneJeffery said:


> Here's a question - Do some experienced writers here believe that everything you write should be finished / published? Or that you should wait until you're sure it hits your level of 'quality'?


What is "crap"?

You-as-writer aren't necessarily the best judge of your own quality. In fact, due to things like the Overconfidence Effect, a writer's self-pronounced "crap" may very well be that writer's best work, according to fans.

I write a story to the end, and unless I'm getting a niggling "Something's wrong," I send it off to at least one beta reader. So far, whenever I've felt "This sucks!", my beta readers have said "This is great!" Sometimes it's a matter of being too close to the story to see its value; sometimes it's a matter of not being in the story's target audience. *shrug*

Novels are easy for me to write, as are flash fiction pieces. Short stories and screenplays are harder. Stage plays are like pulling teeth (though I can write one when I have to). And the more practice I get in any one type, the easier it gets.

So the OP's perception that the short story is crap could either be the normal author self-hatred, or it could be a matter of not being used to writing short stories.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Carradee said:


> So far, whenever I've felt "This sucks!", my beta readers have said "This is great!"


My reading circle is aware that I'm committed to 2013 on the Dire Crimes line, but they're begging me off and on to finish my YA Fantasy trilogy, which they all love the opening to. I stopped wiriting it because it was "awful" . . .

I'm probably wrong, and would be selling more if I'd finished it.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Carradee said:


> What is "crap"?
> 
> You-as-writer aren't necessarily the best judge of your own quality. In fact, due to things like the Overconfidence Effect, a writer's self-pronounced "crap" may very well be that writer's best work, according to fans.


I dunno, man, from what I remember about the overconfidence effect from my days as a psych major, someone who thinks that only 20% of their writing is crap is deluding themselves because actually 40% of crap. It's not a certainty about what's bad that's exaggerated, it's the certainty about what's good.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> I dunno, man, from what I remember about the overconfidence effect from my days as a psych major, someone who thinks that only 20% of their writing is crap is deluding themselves because actually 40% of crap. It's not a certainty about what's bad that's exaggerated, it's the certainty about what's good.


But Overcondfience Effect is a belief that you know more than you think you do. So while it can mean more of your writing is crap than you think, it can also mean that more of your writing is _not_ crap than you think. (For "You believe yourself better than you are", I've always heard of that as the Dunning-Kruger effect.)

There's also a related one that's a more direct relation to what I'm talking about, but I can never remember what it's called.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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