# KENP Page Read Credit for KU Audiobook Listening?



## Dean M. Cole (Apr 4, 2011)

I see that Kindle Unlimited now allows readers to freely download linked audiobooks. Does anyone know how Amazon plans to monetize Audiobook listens that don’t have correlating KENP reads?

A few weeks ago, one of my better performing audiobooks suddenly rose to new sales ranking heights and has stayed there. Now I see that it is free to download in Kindle Unlimited. However, neither my KENP numbers nor my daily audiobook downloads have increased.

Anyone know how Amazon will calculate KU audiobook royalties?


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

This seems wrong, even for Amazonanigans. Yes, I think I was the first to coin that word.

If it's for KU, and you get 0, that's just one more reason to get out of KU.

David Gaughran, if it really works that way, howsabout a blog post on it?


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

I wondered about this when I borrowed a book in KU and saw it had the audiobook for free. I think it's something new or I just never noticed it before and it doesn't seem to be all KU titles with audiobooks. It's not right if they aren't paying the author and I hope it doesn't continue if the author isn't getting anything for it.


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

This is worrisome. I always thought it was just Amazon press books that had the free read & listen feature. I see a lot of Montlake and Skyscape books with KU/ free listens but I always assumed the author was compensated somehow.


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## CallMeRed (May 12, 2016)

OP did you ever figure out how they compensate for this? Two of my books in KU with associated audiobooks have recently been listed as "read and listen free". I emailed ACX and they said they don't see that on their side and that it must be a whispersync thing I'm seeing.  So I just sent them screenshots. Waiting to hear back, but how is it possible that they can give away my audiobooks without my permission and without compensation?

Curious if you ever got an answer.


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## Jeff Nine (Aug 30, 2015)

Anyone get any answers on this? We just noticed our audiobook is free to listen to on KU, but the audiobook was created by Tantor... so not sure where royalties are going, and how they are being calculated. My only guess is that they use whisper sync to calculate pages read... but I don't know who they are paying for those pages read, us or Tantor.

I'm looking all over, but can't find any answers. Anyone else?


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

I've wondered about this for quite a long time. The program seems really hard to find any information on, even from the reader's side. (I was originally looking for a reader friend and couldn't find any easy way to tell what or how many books were available this way, for instance.)


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

I noticed my audio book was being given away in Kindle Unlimited without notification to me on July 19. I don't know how long it has been offered as free.

So I wrote immediately to both ACX and KDP advising them that they did not have my permission to bundle my audiobook, which cost me $3,500 to produce, as free in Kindle Unlimited. I asked them to advise how many downloads had occurred and how they intended to compensate me. I also stated that I considered this a serious breach of my copyright and that I wanted an urgent response.

This is what I received the next day.

_Dear Susan,

I've retrieved both of your emails and will reply here.

We appreciate you bringing this to our attention. I've escalated this issue to our rights team as your ACX created content should not be part of Kindle Unlimited.

I apologize for the inconvenience and have passed your notes along to the team as well.

I thank you in advance for your patience while this is addressed.

Please let us know if there is anything else we can assist you with.

Have a great weekend.

Warm regards,

ACX Client Support_

I underlined "ACX created content should not be part of Kindle Unlimited," so we are all clear that this is a breach.

Funnily enough I joined KU a few months ago because I noticed you could enjoy audiobooks on some of the titles and I thought that was a great deal. However, I didn't for a second think that the author was not being compensated. If it turns out all authors are not being compensated for use of their audiobooks, then I'll cancel my membership and tell them why. Also a lot of my loyal readers will do the same they've assured me.

What I find bizarre is that my email to KDP was picked up by ACX as a dual response as per this email. So the theft of my intellectual property is being investigated by the same people who are also managing the department who stole it.

It's now ten days since I wrote to them and still my audiobook is being offered free with no notification to me. This is intellectual property theft. The rights to my audible are not bound to the rights of my eBook. I did not give permission by enrolling in Select for them to do a grab for my audiobook at no extra cost or without notification.

This comes hot on the heels of Amazon announcing their huge profits. I find this extraordinary behavior and I will continue to pursue this to the end and let you know.

I've scoured through every rule and sub-section on ACX and Select and nowhere does it refer to this bundling. Therefore this is absolute outright intellectual property theft. Write and demand you be compensated and ask for reports on the number of downloads.

When two of my books were placed in Prime Reads I was compensated pretty well in the four figure mark, well above several thousand. This is the same deal. If they include your audiobook in KU as a bonus to entice people to join or stay in KU (as it did with me), then you should be compensated.

The more authors who complain, the quicker we will get this sorted out. Oh, and do check your audiobooks to see if they have grabbed them. They only took one of mine and only in the USA. If this has happened to you, I suggest you don't take it lying down.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

If KU is willing to rip off authors their page reads via Page Flip ("I am sorry to inform that the pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read... we will continue to monitor it closely...), why wouldn't they also rip off authors' audio books?


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

T. M. Bilderback said:


> Susan, you need to get some attention drawn to this by the press. You also need to forward your information to David Gaughran. He's a member here, and can get some action on things like this.


I will forward to David if I don't get anywhere by the end of this week and try and get some media on this, especially with the news of the huge profits they are making while stealing from indie authors. The longer it is up there though the more serious the breach and the more they'll be paying me. If you sent a take down notice to most online outlets for breach of copyright, you'd expect it to happen within 48 hours. That's reasonable, I guess, but coming up now to two weeks is outrageous and shows their attitude more than anything. The longer this goes, the better this story will be against them. They have no excuse whatsoever.



loraininflorida said:


> If KU is willing to rip off authors their page reads via Page Flip ("I am sorry to inform that the pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read... we will continue to monitor it closely...), why wouldn't they also rip off authors' audio books?


Absolutely. They are growing bolder as each month goes by. Earlier this month they re-enrolled an anthology, I managed, into Kindle Unlimited without notice or permission. That book had been unpublished two years prior. It took them a week to get it down again and caused a few problems among the authors involved. Some of the authors already published their included short story in Kindle Unlimited, so it put them in breach of Select terms.

Anything seems to go with Amazon lately. I'm making my plans to go wide, having never ever considered it before. I've had enough.


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

I just heard from a fan who signed up for KU because she noticed she could both listen and read my book for 'free'. This was news to me as I independently produce my audiobook and then upload the finished product to ACX. I am the producer and copyright owner and have never given my permission for KU to give my audiobook away for free. Thank you Susan for the information. I sent to acx entrepreneur and will let you know what I hear.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

jmb3 said:


> I just heard from a fan who signed up for KU because she noticed she could both listen and read my book for 'free'. This was news to me as I independently produce my audiobook and then upload the finished product to ACX. I am the producer and copyright owner and have never given my permission for KU to give my audiobook away for free. Thank you Susan for the information. I sent to acx entrepreneur and will let you know what I hear.


You are welcome. In case anyone else wants to send them an email, I simply sent to ACX via this email: [email protected] With KDP, I sent via their contact button. The customer service rep (and I say customer service loosely now we are into day 10) responded on behalf of KDP and ACX. How convenient.

However, I would still send the same email to both, just so you have a record that you contacted the distributor and the entity breaching your copyright. If you use a different distributor obviously write to them instead of ACX.

I'll be interested to know whether it is only ACX distributed titles that they've gotten their sticky fingers on.

Also, here's the email I sent, in case you want to use it to save time.

It's come to my attention that Amazon is offering my audio book linked to (book name and assign here) as free with Kindle Unlimited.

You do not have my permission to offer my audible book as a bundle in this manner. This audio version cost me $4000 to produce.

I would like you to advise how many downloads have occurred of this audio book and how you will be compensating me for them.

I have searched through your help information and at ACX and I cannot find any information that refers to audiobooks bundled as free with Kindle Unlimited

I find this a very serious breach of my copyright. I would like an urgent response to this.

Thank you.

Do not let Amazon get away with stealing your intellectual property for their gain.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

Hi,

It's been two weeks since I wrote to ACX and KDP about them giving away my audiobook free to Kindle Unlimited readers without my permission.

I received an email back 11 days after I first wrote and was told it was being investigated. This is the reply. A little confusing since I gave them details, names, ASINs, etc and was very clear. These two emails here have come from a Customer Relations Specialist and someone with an English sounding name, I presume higher up and in the US.

_Hello Susan,

My name is xxxx with KDP Customer Relations. I've been made aware of your concerns regarding your audio book being available in Kindle Unlimited and would like to further investigate. At your earliest convenience, please reply to this email with where/how exactly you've been made aware of this. For example, if you see/saw this on Amazon, do you perhaps have a screenshot?_

I mean, it can't be that difficult to look at the page and see in bold *Read and Listen for Free.*

Of course I replied immediately giving them everything they needed and 3 days later, and a full two weeks since I first emailed, this is where we're at.

_Hello Susan,

I just wanted to follow-up with you to let you know that your concerns regarding your audio-book being available for free through KU is still being investigated and I've connected with the relevant teams for assistance. As soon as I have any further update, I'll notify you immediately._

I don't know what to make of this. How can it take that long to check whether they have some kind of agreement with me to give away my book? I'll be intrigued with what they come up with. I've told them while their checking to please make sure they work out how much they intend to pay me. I've given them a ballpark figure based on what I received for my books in Prime.

The longer its up there, the more they'll owe. I did check too if I downloaded it in KU, if I would be paid anything. Since I didn't sell any of that audible in July after I discovered this, I can say for sure you do not receive compensation when they arbitrarily steal your audiobook. Will report back when I hear something more.

If anyone else who has contacted them has had any reasonable replies, I'd love to know.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Did you try listening to the audiobook?


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

...

Audible books are advertised as being "listen for free" all the time. All it means is, sign up for an Audible subscription, and you can download the book for 'free', because the first x months of an audible subscription are free. You should be compensated the same way you're compensated now for when someone downloads the audiobook for the monthly credit they receive as a subscriber: the cost of that monthly subscription. It is certainly an open question as to whether, if someone downloads the book for 'free' as part of their first three months of audible subscribing, but it's not like y'all's books are getting downloaded for free willy-nilly. 

Audible has always advertised themselves in this way. It's really "Free with a new subscription", but of course that isn't as eye-catching.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

Cassie Leigh said:


> Did you try listening to the audiobook?


Yes, I did listen to a few pages but no ACX payment.

And Gene you haven't read through the thread carefully. We're not talking about FREE with an Audible trial. Those ones are paid as a ACX download of around $4. This is a select number of audiobooks are offered free to Kindle Unlimited members. Nothing to do with Audible. Although if you download the book in KU you can download the audio in Audible app. It seems to work the same idea as Prime Reads with a few thousand curated Audios bundled with KU.

If you go to a book's page that has it, it will say Read and Listen for free in Kindle Unlimited.

They are not asking permission. They are not compensating authors. And ACX has confirmed in writing that the audiobooks should not be offered as free in Kindke Unlimited. I advise everyone to check their ebooks to see if they have the Read & Listen for free button. You won't know if you don't check.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

SusanMayWriter said:


> Yes, I did listen to a few pages but no ACX payment.
> 
> And Gene you haven't read through the thread carefully. We're not talking about FREE with an Audible trial. Those ones are paid as a ACX download of around $4. This is a select number of audiobooks are offered free to Kindle Unlimited members. Nothing to do with Audible. Although if you download the book in KU you can download the audio in Audible app. It seems to work the same idea as Prime Reads with a few thousand curated Audios bundled with KU.
> 
> ...


OK. So what you're talking about is what's described here?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201553890


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. 

I even signed up to KU after years not thinking it was worth it, as I read a bit slowly, because of the audiobooks in the program. I never for a second thought the authors weren't being compensated. I did think the majority of the books were Amazon Imprints so figured they had some kind of deal. Then I noticed a few bigger indie authors, then this thread a few months ago. Then it happened to me.  Really outrageous. There is nowhere in our KDP terms that says they can do this. No reference. None on ACX.

So this is intellectual property theft, plain and simple.


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## Jeff Nine (Aug 30, 2015)

Thanks for updates on your communication with Amazon / ACX. I am especially concerned on our case, because the audiobook was created by Tantor... not through ACX. I will be reaching out to them soon as well, because I have no idea if / where royalties are being paid (to us through KENP via whisper sync, or to Tantor via downloads).

I'll post back when I have more information.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Welp. This is sucktacular.


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

Despite the fact that I had proof that KU was offering my first book for both 'read and listen for free' without securing my permission (I paid in full with my own money and own the copyright), I received an email back from acx assuring me it wasn't. They pointed to the whispersync price, then the full audiobook price, and even added book four into the cart to 'prove' it was not free?!? They completely skipped over the attached picture where it was ADVERTISED by KU as 'read and listen for free'. I sent back a very detailed email as to why their 'evidence' was flawed and now my book is no longer available for a free listen. No word yet about compensation. I assume I will get nothing. The worst part is I have no idea how long it has been available for free because I only found out from a fan on Prime Day who let me know she signed up for KU just to listen to my audiobook.

*Just a heads up. The reason I didn't jump on this sooner is that I couldn't see it advertised for a free listen until I logged out of my account (I have KU and audible) and looked up my book as if I were a person without an Amazon account. That was where I was able to see the 'read and listen for free' option.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

I don’t think they care who produces the book or owns the copyright. Clearly enough people have written querying this that they are aware of it. So they are knowingly using our copyrighted intellectual property to promote KU.

I am a dog with a bone & they will be supplying me with dates, downloads & compensation. This is the same as a pirate site taking your book & profiting. Highway thievery.

I also sent them a screenshot of the Read & Listen for Free. Plus I downloaded it through KU & also the Audible as proof. Don’t let them get away with this. Keep writing. If they think they can just take our audiobooks & not pay us, what comes next?

Also shows you how pathetic ACX is in protecting your copyright. They said their rights team would be investigating & then I end up with KDP investigating. What’s ACX doing for their cut as distributo?. I’m also surprised Tantor hasn’t jumped on this as that’s their profits Amazon is giving away.

I’d love to know how many authors this has been done to.


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

SusanMayWriter said:


> I don't think they care who produces the book or owns the copyright. Clearly enough people have written querying this that they are aware of it. So they are knowingly using our copyrighted intellectual property to promote KU.
> 
> I am a dog with a bone & they will be supplying me with dates, downloads & compensation. This is the same as a pirate site taking your book & profiting. Highway thievery.
> 
> ...


It does seem pretty shocking. I'll definitely be following the outcome of this with interest!


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

Isn't this all just an extension of the contempt with which Amazon holds all authors work?


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

[Deleting my posts in response to the unannounced KBoards TOS change by the new forum owner (VerticalScope) -- which I never agreed to, and never will agree to]


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

For Jeff Nine who has his audios produced through Tantor, it is possible that Tantor has some deal with Amazon, in which case, he should get some sort of compensation. Although, that's definitely something he should look into. In my case, the only person Amazon could have asked to work a deal for free access to my audiobook was me (the full copyright owner)... and I definitely was never asked, nor was I compensated in any way for the listens. I thought maybe it had something to do with being in the Romance Package (I was one of the founding authors in that program) but there is nothing in the wording of that contract that mentions KU. Plus only one, not both of the audiobooks I have in RP, is being offered for a free listen in KU. And Susan, I will continue to pursue this for sure. I just very much doubt they care about compensating one insignificant author.


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

Thank you, Gene for that link! For those who didn't read the page it went to, there was a further link that takes you to a list of 5000 books you can listen to for free with KU. After a bit of scrolling, I came upon The Hunger Games. 

On the product page, you have the option to read or listen for free in KU, OR purchase the book and add the Audible version for 7.49.

I think the Zon has a serious problem.


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

Ha! A little more scrolling and I found Artemis Fowl listed. However, this book's product page still shows the KU headphones that is supposed to indicate that you can listen for free, but the KU button is the normal read for free. No listen mentioned.

My guess? Disney didn't take kindly to having their audio book given away for free.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

I was just curious about this so tried it out.  I have a Kindle Unlimited subscription but not an Audible one.  I happen to have The Hobbit checked out in KU that has the headphones symbol.  I downloaded the Audible app on my iPad and yes I am able to listen to the book for free.  Wow.  When I went to the link to the books in the program I was only seeing big publisher and Amazon publisher books.  I won't listen to anything that looks like it is indie published if I ever run across one.  But yeah I just have a KU subscription and can listen for free.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

I've just noticed that my book is no longer FREE (stolen and being used) in the Kindle Unlimited program. However, I haven't heard back from them about my compensation or why they are taking our books without our permission, notification or payment and using them to enhance their KU program.

I'll give them 24 hours and then I'll be writing asking for my compensation. I shall report back on the saga. So outrageous and I'm so disgusted.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

So this is interesting. I just checked on a few other books that I've listened to as part of the KU program. For instance I did listen to Handmaid's Tale (excellent read by Claire Danes).  This was published through Houghton Mifflin Harcourt.  

Even though it is still listed in that selection of books with Free audible and has the little headset saying it is free, like Artemis Fowl, not is now not included. Same for 1984 by George Orwell, which is showing it is free but is not. These are both through Houghton Miffline Harcourt.

Possibly, we couple of indie authors here are not the only ones who've been writing and complaining about the improper and illegal use of our copyrighted books.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

Sounds to me that the folks running KU are doing desperate things to get more KU subscribers.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

I am assuming they have agreements with the big publishers to do this and can of course do it with the Amazon imprints.

I got an email from Audible saying welcome to my free trial, so I thought oh just another way to get you on the free trial.  But I logged into Audible and I have an account there - just sign in using my Amazon account info - but I'm not on a trial or membership.  There is a place to sign up for a free trial if I want to.

When I check out one of the books in KU it shows up in my Audible library and then when I return the ebook to KU the Audible file goes away.  There definitely shouldn't be any independently produced audios in there without the writer's permission.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

> I am assuming they have agreements with the big publishers to do this and can of course do it with the Amazon imprints.


Amazon imprint authors may be in the dark about this too. Even when the Imprints own the copyright, there still has to be some accounting on it. You can't give away a version of a book for free and not pay the author in some way, unless its in the contract. And who would sign a contract that said, we'll take your audible and if it's used in KU for free, you don't get paid.

So now I'm thinking there is no agreement with anyone and, as I said before, this is just theft of copyrighted material without reference to the owner.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

SusanMayWriter said:


> I just heard back from a friend who is with an Amazon imprint and they've been a top best seller for years through them, and they didn't know anything about this. Even when the Imprints own the copyright, there still has to be some accounting on it. You can't give away a version of a book for free and not pay the author in some way, unless its in the contract. And who would sign a contract that said, we'll take your audible and if it's used in KU for free, you don't get paid.
> 
> So now I'm thinking there is no agreement with anyone and, as I said before, this is just theft of copyrighted material without reference to the owner.


Wow, pretty amazing. It seems to me I have seen the "read and listen" for a while but never paid attention to it. Looks like tons of Amazon Imprint books have it.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

> Wow, pretty amazing. It seems to me I have seen the "read and listen" for a while but never paid attention to it. Looks like tons of Amazon Imprint books have it.


See I only noticed it about April and I signed up for KU for the 90 days for 99c deal back then and then when I realized how great a deal it was with audiobooks included, I continued. I should have realized there was no way they could pay an author fairly for their audio book and offer it for free.

So, me, being a slow reader but enjoyer of Audios, I would read about 2 to 3 books a month but listen to also about 6 audiobooks in the same time while I was driving or doing chores. There's no way, if they were paying authors fairly, that I'm not costing them money. I also then told a bunch of people in my private facebook group about it and they've been listening to audiobooks as well through it. So it's a big incentive to join KU or stay in KU.

Since they've had this massive clear out in the last 24 hours of Read and Listen for Free books, I can see them coming back and saying, "Oh, sorry, this is a glitch. Our apologies."

But that won't cut it because they've been using intellectual property for their gain, without permission. From using audiobooks from the major publishers to small and major indies, and imprints, this could be a big scandal. Unless of course they pay up a reasonable amount for using these audiobooks as an incentive in KU. Maybe they will, but based on past experience with them and their glitches, they do seem to think we can pay our rent and bills with apologies.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

SusanMayWriter said:


> So this is interesting. I just checked on a few other books that I've listened to as part of the KU program. For instance I did listen to Handmaid's Tale (excellent read by Claire Danes). This was published through Houghton Mifflin Harcourt.
> 
> Even though it is still listed in that selection of books with Free audible and has the little headset saying it is free, like Artemis Fowl, not is now not included. Same for 1984 by George Orwell, which is showing it is free but is not. These are both through Houghton Miffline Harcourt.
> 
> Possibly, we couple of indie authors here are not the only ones who've been writing and complaining about the improper and illegal use of our copyrighted books.


HMH doesn't have an audio division. The Handmaid's Tale edition you speak of was put out by Audible Studios. There are a few options for 1984, but neither of them are produced by HMH. It's possible they aren't the rights-holder.


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## Jeff Nine (Aug 30, 2015)

Update: I have reached out to Tantor, and my contact was unaware of any authorization from them... but she is passing the email on to her managing editor to confirm. Since I sent that email I have noticed that the language of "listen for free" is now gone from our product page. I have screenshots from before, but they seem to have corrected the issue at least for our book... but I still want some answers.

After I hear back from Tantor again, I will decide how to approach Amazon.


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## Loosecannon (May 9, 2013)

Hmmm...this is out of line. But not too surprising when you read Amazon's own 'Leadership Principles'. (https://www.amazon.jobs/principles):
(Emphasis in italics below is mine)

 Customer Obsession
Leaders start with the customer and work backwards. They work vigorously to earn and keep customer trust. Although leaders pay attention to competitors, they obsess over customers.

Ownership
Leaders are owners. They think long term and don't sacrifice long-term value for short-term results. They act on behalf of the entire company, beyond just their own team. They never say "that's not my job".

Invent and Simplify
Leaders expect and require innovation and invention from their teams and always find ways to simplify. They are externally aware, look for new ideas from everywhere, and are not limited by "not invented here". As we do new things, we accept that we may be misunderstood for long periods of time.

Are Right, A Lot
Leaders are right a lot. They have strong judgment and good instincts. They seek diverse perspectives and work to disconfirm their beliefs.

Learn and Be Curious
Leaders are never done learning and always seek to improve themselves. They are curious about new possibilities and act to explore them.

Hire and Develop the Best
Leaders raise the performance bar with every hire and promotion. They recognize exceptional talent, and willingly move them throughout the organization. Leaders develop leaders and take seriously their role in coaching others. We work on behalf of our people to invent mechanisms for development like Career Choice.

Insist on the Highest Standards
Leaders have relentlessly high standards - many people may think these standards are unreasonably high. Leaders are continually raising the bar and drive their teams to deliver high quality products, services and processes. Leaders ensure that defects do not get sent down the line and that problems are fixed so they stay fixed.

Think Big
Thinking small is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Leaders create and communicate a bold direction that inspires results. They think differently and look around corners for ways to serve customers.

_* Bias for Action
Speed matters in business. Many decisions and actions are reversible and do not need extensive study. We value calculated risk taking. *_

_* Frugality
Accomplish more with less. Constraints breed resourcefulness, self-sufficiency and invention. There are no extra points for growing headcount, budget size or fixed expense.*_

Earn Trust
Leaders listen attentively, speak candidly, and treat others respectfully. They are vocally self-critical, even when doing so is awkward or embarrassing. Leaders do not believe their or their team's body odor smells of perfume. They benchmark themselves and their teams against the best.

Dive Deep
Leaders operate at all levels, stay connected to the details, audit frequently, and are skeptical when metrics and anecdote differ. No task is beneath them.

Have Backbone;_* Disagree and Commit*_
Leaders are obligated to respectfully challenge decisions when they disagree, even when doing so is uncomfortable or exhausting. Leaders have conviction and are tenacious. They do not compromise for the sake of social cohesion. _*Once a decision is determined, they commit wholly.*_

Deliver Results
Leaders focus on the key inputs for their business and deliver them with the right quality and in a timely fashion. Despite setbacks, they rise to the occasion and never settle.


I dunno, sounds like a real gung-ho product manager decided to cut some corners...possibly shades of Well Fargo-esque internal performance goals that made someone not think this thru too well. Just postulating here...YMMMV. Web production-wise this isn't a mistake and that is clear. Very curious about how they will play this.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

> I dunno, sounds like a real gung-ho product manager decided to cut some corners...possibly shades of Well Fargo-esque internal performance goals that made someone not think this thru too well. Just postulating here...YMMMV. Web production-wise this isn't a mistake and that is clear. Very curious about how they will play this.


I am curious too and I have wondered if this was some over-eager grab by an employee of Kindle Unlimited. Hard to believe though that they didn't realize these audio books have separate copyrights. Also hard to fathom how they could just snatch a hot title like Handmaid's Tale and take the audiobook. However, it also seems more than a coincidence that many of the books, including mine, now have that read and listen for free removed on the seemingly same day.

Even though the Handmaid's Tale was an audible release, as someone pointed out, 1984 by George Orwell is Blackstone Audio Inc. This one has also had the language changed.

I've just written them an email now repeating that I want to know what compensation they are going to pay and how long my audiobook was up there for free. I'm now at day 18 of hearing nothing, except they are investigating. The longer they take to get back to me the more shadier it seems.


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## CallMeRed (May 12, 2016)

I noticed this problem at the end of June on two of my books and finally emailed them on July 3rd. I got this reply on July 6th but have received no replies since then and I've called and emailed numerous more times. They still haven't taken the read and listen free off and they did not compensate in any way. Sales of my two audiobooks which I paid cash for have been cannibalized by this. So frustrating. I am sure I'll never be paid. 

"Thank you for contacting ACX! 

We would like to start by apologizing for any inconvenience this has caused you. We would also like to assure you that we are working diligently to not only remove your titles from the Kindle Unlimited program but we are also carefully reviewing what losses were had in your sales as a result if any.  

Please allow our team some time to carefully review this matter and we will certainly notify you as soon as we have an update. In the meantime, please let me know if I can provide additional information or assistance."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## randallcfloyd (Nov 27, 2017)

Sounds like this may end up being a potential class action lawsuit.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

randallcfloyd said:


> Sounds like this may end up being a potential class action lawsuit.


That certainly would be an interesting question. KU authors are barred from pursuing class actions against Amazon, but those audio books weren't _in_ KU so the KU contract would presumably not be applicable to them. Wouldn't stop Amazon from asserting the KU-authors-can't-sue clause of their contract I'm sure, but a court might very well rule, nope, outside the contract, not covered by it.

CallMeRed--I would heed their advice. Contact them again. Every day.


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## Nate Hoffelder (Jun 9, 2014)

jmb3 said:


> For Jeff Nine who has his audios produced through Tantor, it is possible that Tantor has some deal with Amazon, in which case, he should get some sort of compensation. Although, that's definitely something he should look into. In my case, the only person Amazon could have asked to work a deal for free access to my audiobook was me (the full copyright owner)... and I definitely was never asked, nor was I compensated in any way for the listens. I thought maybe it had something to do with being in the Romance Package (I was one of the founding authors in that program) but there is nothing in the wording of that contract that mentions KU. Plus only one, not both of the audiobooks I have in RP, is being offered for a free listen in KU. And Susan, I will continue to pursue this for sure. I just very much doubt they care about compensating one insignificant author.


I am also pursuing this.

I contacted KDP, and they passed the buck to Audible, who gave me a rote response. I also contacted ACX and Audible PR, and will report back what they say.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

> I am also pursuing this.
> 
> I contacted KDP, and they passed the buck to Audible, who gave me a rote response. I also contacted ACX and Audible PR, and will report back what they say.


Good to hear you are looking into it Nate. This is quite a scandal, I think.

After writing to same rep at KDP yesterday and asking what's happening now that my audio is no longer free, I received a prompt email back from the same Customer Relations Specialist who said they are still investigating and working with ACX so that "this can all be worked out appropriately, since your audio-book is published with them." They also are trying to determine why it occurred and say that it is being worked on with priority.

I would have thought approaching three weeks since I first wrote is hardly priority. However, I feel that the tone of this email suggests there will be a payout. They can't get away with not paying something. I have a figure in my mind, I'm prepared to accept based on the Prime inclusion paid for the same book. Also not ruling out legal action but I'm sure they don't want this to blow up in the media. It's pretty damning of them to be stealing authors' books for their own benefit.

My suggestions is that everyone affected, please pursue this. They cannot get away with using your intellectual property to beef up their KU offer without paying you. Will report back when I hear more.


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## Nate Hoffelder (Jun 9, 2014)

I got a form email from ACX:


> Thank you for reaching out to ACX. We apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you.
> 
> A technical issue caused some audiobooks to be offered in Kindle Unlimited in error. ACX has removed your title and will provide you with an update on royalty credits for any of your audiobooks that were offered in the program in error. ACX Is carefully reviewing this matter and will reach out with more information soon. We're sorry for the inconvenience this caused.
> 
> In the meantime, please let me know if we can provide additional information or assistance. We're here to help. Thank you for your patience.


I don't know that I believe they have fixed the problem, but I do think they really are trying to fix it. (I told Audible PR I was going to write a post on this next week.)


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

Nate Hoffelder said:


> I got a form email from ACX:
> I don't know that I believe they have fixed the problem, but I do think they really are trying to fix it. (I told Audible PR I was going to write a post on this next week.)


Nate, I don't believe they've fixed the problem in total. I think they've done a sweep of some books including ones whose authors have complained. I'm a little unsettled by the form email they've sent you.

They can't just get away with "royalty credits," if I take that to mean, they intend to pay us a royalty on whatever quantity of downloads occurred. For a start we don't know when this began, so they need to be upfront about that (and yes, I know, they are rarely up-front).

Also, and more importantly, the value they received from offering thousands of books for free to listen meant a lot more to their profit than the actual downloads that occurred. I only signed up for KU recently because of the audiobooks. It's a brilliant deal. Just as Prime Reads made their Prime membership look more appealing, so too does having these audiobooks for free. Not to mention there is a penalty for using our copyright protected product for their own benefit without asking, glitch (yeah, sure it was) or not.

So offering a credit per download will not cut it with me. They can pay me what they paid for my inclusion in Prime Reads with this same book. I've told them in my original email I'm expecting a similar payout offer, if not more, since the audiobook costs more to produce and therefore has more value as an offering to Kindle Unlimited readers. Their glitch, so they can pay for it.

Look forward to reading your post Nate.


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## CallMeRed (May 12, 2016)

A supervisor finally called me back yesterday. He said they are working on trying to figure out how much to pay us. He implied it would be a per download/borrow amount. I agree with the statement that it should be more. In addition to the reasons you stated, I've (we've) spent a lot of time and frustration emailing them and calling them trying to straighten this out. Is my (our) time worth nothing to them??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

CallMeRed said:


> A supervisor finally called me back yesterday. He said they are working on trying to figure out how much to pay us. He implied it would be a per download/borrow amount. I agree with the statement that it should be more. In addition to the reasons you stated, I've (we've) spent a lot of time and frustration emailing them and calling them trying to straighten this out. Is my (our) time worth nothing to them??
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, our time and work is worth nothing to them. They've made that clear over the years. And they are not getting away with paying by the download. This isn't like a normal thing with them where they can say this is what we offer & if you want it you must accept our terms, like they do with Prime Reads offers of inclusion, Kindle Deal inclusion or using them to distribute from ACX & signing their terms.

In this case, they used our property without our permission for their own benefit. When they did that they harmed our sales incalculably. There is no telling how many extra KU memberships they gained from using our books illegally as incentive.

There is also no way to calculate how many sales we lost of audiobooks. A person may have seen our audiobook & thought I won't get that from Audible or buy it now because I'll grab that later on a free KU listen.

What about bounties we may have missed out on?

When you get caught stealing, you don't get to just pay for the item & all is forgiven. They can pay me what they paid for my Prime inclusion & extra for their misuse of my work, otherwise this won't go away. This will not look good for them in the media. A big, rich corporation stealing intellectual property from small creative one person operations.

They have known about this for 3 months that we know of, so they can't say it's just a glitch. If it was a glitch it would have been fixed when the first author advised them. This thread has obviously stirred a lot of complaints to make them finally take action when they've realized we are not going away anytime soon.

Will report back when I hear more.


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## Nate Hoffelder (Jun 9, 2014)

SusanMayWriter said:


> Nate, I don't believe they've fixed the problem in total. I think they've done a sweep of some books including ones whose authors have complained. I'm a little unsettled by the form email they've sent you.
> 
> They can't just get away with "royalty credits," if I take that to mean, they intend to pay us a royalty on whatever quantity of downloads occurred. For a start we don't know when this began, so they need to be upfront about that (and yes, I know, they are rarely up-front).
> 
> ...


I posted yesterday.
https://the-digital-reader.com/2018/08/08/indie-authors-audiobooks-are-getting-dragooned-into-kindle-unlimited-without-permission-or-payment/


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

Hi,

I'm back as promised. I didn't prompt a response from KDP since my last one because I figured the longer it took the worse it would be for them in negotiations for compensation.

So, this morning I received an email from the same _customer relations specialist_, so this is being handled higher up for sure. It's the same ol' same ol':



> Just to follow-up with you, I'm still currently following ACX's investigation progress related to your audible book that was available for free listening, and is taking longer to resolve than anticipated. I can confirm that this is of utmost priority though. As soon as there's an outcome, I'll notify you immediately. I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience.


I've written back and said in so many words that this is unacceptable and concerning since they were aware of this issue back in May at least (when this thread was started) and, considering this is a serious breach of copyright, I'm expecting a much higher payment from them than the amount they paid for the same book to be included in Kindle Prime. The other contributing factor to the amount I expect is that it is now five weeks since I notified them and the delay in first taking the book down and then making a compensation offer is harmful to my business.

If anyone receives an offer, I suggest you don't accept that offer unless it is wildly good. It should be negotiated until you are satisfied. They can't just use our property for their own gain and then, after the fact, decide how much they'll pay. Maybe there is a class action to be had here if eventually we don't receive satisfaction.

In my mind, they can double the payout for Kindle Prime since, as WasAnn has said, this wasn't a glitch. This is theft and fraud. Don't worry, I will keep you up to date and they can't pay me to go away. This has really annoyed me.

It's like a publisher taking your book, publishing it as a free intro to their catalogue and never telling you about it. If they don't hurry up, I'll be talking to the media. At the moment, the longer they take to resolve this the better our case.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Sorry if I missed it, but has Gaughran or somebody like him blogged this up? Raising the profile of these problems always helps.


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

One of my books was (and still is) included in the program. I found it by following the link posted on the first page: https://www.amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link_422999562_4?ie=UTF8&node=9630682011

I didn't have time to contact ACX when I first found it, and now, I'm curious to see what they'll do. It seems as though they're only removing books when an author complains.


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## CallMeRed (May 12, 2016)

Ugh, this really ticks me off. I had two books in this mess. They told me two weeks ago they'd taken them both off the read and listen free thing and I noticed that the button on amazon no longer said "read and listen free" it just said "Read free" but one of the books had the little audio headphones next to the words kindle unlimited. The other one didn't and the rest of my audiobooks (the other 6 books I have) did NOT have the little headphones next to kindle unlimited. So I called ACX and asked them what those headphones meant. They said it meant that my book was whispersynced. After I hung up I wondered why the rest of my books didn't have the little icon, were they NOT whispersynced? Because they were... 

Ugh, now I clicked on the link you provided above and sure enough that book IS still enrolled in this program. Ugh. So so so sick of this!! They freaking lied to me. 

What a bunch of carp.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

I've heard back again after writing to the rep and they say:_ I honestly can assure you that the ACX team considers this to be priority to ensure they come to a conclusion as soon as possible._



Kate. said:


> One of my books was (and still is) included in the program. I found it by following the link posted on the first page: https://www.amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link_422999562_4?ie=UTF8&node=9630682011
> 
> I didn't have time to contact ACX when I first found it, and now, I'm curious to see what they'll do. It seems as though they're only removing books when an author complains.


You should definitely send ACX a message asking for your book to be taken down and request compensation. The more complaints, the more I think we will receive. If your audiobook is free with Kindle Unlimited you can tell because the button that says _Read for Free_ will have _Read and Listen for Free_. If there is a little headset emblem next to the box that says _Kindle Unlimited included with your membership_, and your book isn't showing _Read and Listen for Free,_ this means then your audiobook has been free but they've removed it. You should write to them and say you believe it was offered for free and request information about when this occurred. I'd put up an image to show you but I don't know how. lol

I notice when I've just checked that a lot of audio books are showing as available in Kindle Unlimited on the link but they are now not. So they've taken out quite a lot of them. I'd love to know how many in the list are now available. Maybe it's only their imprints.

My book is still included in the link of books which have free audio. However, the audio now can't be downloaded.



David VanDyke said:


> Sorry if I missed it, but has Gaughran or somebody like him blogged this up? Raising the profile of these problems always helps.


David, Nate did write about it a few weeks ago. https://the-digital-reader.com/2018/08/08/indie-authors-audiobooks-are-getting-dragooned-into-kindle-unlimited-without-permission-or-payment/ I haven't gotten in touch with David because I think it will be resolved eventually. Mind you, if I'm still here in a month with no answer, then things will be ramped up.

However, I believe this infringement of our copyright is so serious it has most likely been kicked up to legal and they are working out what they need to do. Then get that approved by upper management. I imagine there will be contracts needed to be signed once we reach an agreement, which will say that we accept a sum payment with no further claim against them. As I keep saying, that sum better feel as though I've won the lottery or this will be escalated.

Please anybody who has had their audio included in KU without their permission, write to Amazon. It will take five minutes and will add to our case against them. Most authors don't even realize it has happened to them. So check your books.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

WasAnn said:


> SusanMayWriter - Please so the whole community a huge solid and get in touch with David. It needs to be someone actually impacted. It will get air time. Amazon will see what he writes and more importantly...every single author he reaches will look at their books and see if they're impacted, and hopefully, then report it.


WasAnn, I hadn't thought about the fact many authors wouldn't know their books had been included, so I will get in touch with David and then if he writes something maybe we can get it on Passive Voice and get it out to the wider community. Although I'm sure Nate's article did get it out to a few people. I see a few well known authors I know also had a book in there and I'll message them.

I have messaged a few authors earlier to alert them and they hadn't been aware but I haven't heard back what happened. Will email David and others now. Thanks for the shove.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

WasAnn said:


> SusanMayWriter - Please so the whole community a huge solid and get in touch with David. It needs to be someone actually impacted. It will get air time. Amazon will see what he writes and more importantly...every single author he reaches will look at their books and see if they're impacted, and hopefully, then report it.


WasAnn emails have been sent.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

WasAnn said:


> Awesome! I look very forward to seeing what David does with it. His articles on this kind of thing make me pop some corn and refresh the comments repeatedly! Also, I did see some bigger indies in there too, so hopefully, more will find out what's going on.


I'm the same with David's articles. They are an entertaining, albeit a horrific read at times. True horror stories.


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## PG Allison (Oct 7, 2015)

I was not aware my audiobooks had been affected but I just received this email from ACX:

Dear P. G. Allison,
We are contacting you today regarding an update to your ACX earnings. We recently found that due to a technical issue, your audiobook(s) were included in the Kindle Unlimited program in error. We have removed your audiobook(s) from Kindle Unlimited and apologize for the mistake. 

For each Kindle Unlimited subscriber who downloaded your audiobook, you will earn the same royalty as you would earn for an a la carte (ALC) sale at list price on Audible. Your earnings from the inclusion in Kindle Unlimited and related download data will be provided to you alongside your July Earnings Reports, which you will receive no later than August 31. 

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this has caused. 

Kindly,
The ACX Team

Have others received this message as well?  Does the stated royalty payment seem appropriate and adequate?


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## CallMeRed (May 12, 2016)

I got the same email. I called to speak to a supervisor and complain about this low ball offer but he's "busy" and will call me back. What a joke. Furious right now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Loosecannon (May 9, 2013)

I have been following this topic carefully and had checked many of my titles and did not see them listed as "Listen for free", but surprise I got the same email as PG Allison this morning from ACX today telling me my audiobooks were included too. It seems preposterous that this was a 'mistake'.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

I got the same email. I’m just waiting to hear back from the KDP customer service specialist to see if there is any other offer before I respond to the email. I’ll give them until Monday.

First off, this is a completely unacceptable offer. The books were not sucked into KU by accident. Amazon & ACX cannot decide, after breaching our copyright & illegally using our property to enhance their program, how much they will pay us. 

What they have done is illegal & amoral & this response shows a lack of respect.

I’ve just done a quick search on copyright lawsuits & they are in serious trouble with this & could face huge fines & payouts per breach. Not to mention if anyone wants to push this legally, it would seem to me they would be forced to reveal the inner workings of KU because penalties & author compensation would be based on the profit they made by enhancing their program by offering free audiobooks.

The other very concerning matter is that ACX, in my case, has negotiated on my behalf with Amazon. As we know both are owned by the one corporation. Doesn’t seem as though my distributor did much to represent my interests. Bit of a conflict there.

This is a serious matter. It’s not even close to be being a reasonable response. We should not accept this. I’ll be back when I have more info.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Loosecannon said:


> It seems preposterous that this was a 'mistake'.


It probably was. It only takes one dummy with the power, but not the legal authority, to order it done or do it his/herself. I've worked for large organizations before and it's very common that one overeager middle manager issues an instruction and everyone below them assumes they know what they're doing and falls in line.

***

I second Shelly K's question above. To get damages from a legal action or settlement, you will need to prove you were injured somehow. That will be hard. With legal representation, you could probably get a much larger settlement, but the odds on getting an admission of guilt are vanishingly small. Admitting guilt opens themselves up to thousands more actions. The best you're likely to do is simply more money, perhaps based on the estimated profit to Amazon from this action. (Note, I am not an attorney, and this is just my educated opinion).


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

David VanDyke said:


> It probably was. It only takes one dummy with the power, but not the legal authority, to order it done or do it his/herself. I've worked for large organizations before and it's very common that one overeager middle manager issues an instruction and everyone below them assumes they know what they're doing and falls in line.
> 
> ***
> 
> I second Shelly K's question above. To get damages from a legal action or settlement, you will need to prove you were injured somehow. That will be hard. With legal representation, you could probably get a much larger settlement, but the odds on getting an admission of guilt are vanishingly small. Admitting guilt opens themselves up to thousands more actions. The best you're likely to do is simply more money, perhaps based on the estimated profit to Amazon from this action. (Note, I am not an attorney, and this is just my educated opinion).


I agree with Shelly and David on this one, if anyone's counting raised hands.


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## PG Allison (Oct 7, 2015)

GeneDoucette said:


> I agree with Shelly and David on this one, if anyone's counting raised hands.


I agree as well. If anyone has a rationale for ACX paying a higher royalty than the a la carte (ALC) which they've proposed, I'd be curious. However, I see no future in attempting any legal action and will probably accept what they're giving me.


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## Trevor H Cooley (Jun 29, 2012)

I received the same email and I had no idea that this was going on until then. I had noticed that my Audible sales slowed to a crawl about three months ago, but I figured it was just because I hadn't put anything new out for awhile. 

Now I'm just wondering how many free downloads they are going to claim i had and when they decide the issue started. It could be a lot of money or surprisingly little and there is no way for us to verify that we have been issued the correct amount.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

Going back to the idea of damages: it's not what you, as an author lost, but what Amazon GAINED by using your audiobooks to lure people into the KU system. They stole your intellectual property and essentially used it to sell not just your audiobook but KU itself.  What if someone signed up for KU because of getting your audiobook and stayed on for a year at the $10 price.  Should you just get the ala carte price for that?  It would be one thing if you had AGREED to that, but its wholly another when they are using your audiobook without your permission.  So for those of you saying why should you get more than a la carte pricing, this is potentially one reason why.  

And as to the: it's a mistake thing.  They actually changed the product page to reflect that the KU person would get books and audio for free. They changed the programming to allow KU to listen for free.  This isn't a situation where accidentally the audiobook was available for free. It was advertised just that way.


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## Trioxin 245 (Dec 29, 2017)

It would take a team of lawyers to take on a case like this and imo, you are not going to find any willing to do it.  My opinion is they made a mistake, fessed up to it and are compensating.  A point of advice, do with it as you see fit. Humans do read the emails and answer the angry calls. Be careful how loud you bark. A rep having a bad day may just decide to make your day even worse down the road.


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

I'm okay with the solution they proposed. Mistake or not, my audiobook is no longer being offered for free and I'm getting paid for every download so there is really nothing more I wanted. Plus I think the fact that it was offered for free probably did encourage a lot of KU readers to download the audiobook (and we're getting paid for the download and not the listen) so we might get a nice little paycheck.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

Here's my thoughts on all the comments, for what it's worth. This is just my point of view based on my partner/business experience with Amazon KDP with this particular audiobook of mine which was used without my permission in KU.

Two of my books were invited into Kindle Prime from when it started. I was paid a four figure amount between $5,000 and $10,000. I don't want to be specific. It was the same for both the books. So it wasn't a small amount.

I was sent an email with the offer and I understood that in agreeing to this, I wouldn't be paid for any Prime reader borrows but the payment was compensation for the use. I could choose not to be part of it. Their use of that book, my other book, and the other 1,000 books that are rotated in each three months made Prime Membership more valuable. All authors were compensated in some way, based on the sales of their books prior to the invitation. Maybe some weren't paid. I don't know but I didn't hear of anyone not being asked or paid something.

In this case, I liken them using my audiobook to make their Kindle Unlimited membership more appealing as an identical deal, especially considering they used a book that they had already placed a price value on in a prior program, while using it for the exact same purpose: to enhance a membership program and encourage members to stay in the program or join. Their benefit is incalculable but they had a greater benefit, I would imagine, by having an available catalogue of thousands of free audible books. It was the volume available which gave them the benefit, and not limited to the value of single downloads.

Using our audiobooks allowed them to advertise Kindle Unlimited like this:

_*Unlimited Reading. Unlimited Listening. Any Device.
Enjoy the freedom to explore over 1 million titles and thousands of audiobooks on any device for just $9.99 a month.*_

They were able to claim there was thousands of audible books for Free available to entice members to join. If there were ten on offer, that may not have seemed great to prospective KU members but thousands of best selling, curated audiobooks? That's a great offer.

It's very clear from comments here and in FB groups that the desired impact on membership occurred to some degree. I, myself, joined KU specifically to listen to the books. I mean, it is great value, and I listen to about a book a week, along with reading a book a week. That's better than an audible membership.

When it comes to legal action with KDP or ACX that is a way down the track, if at all. However, I maintain, a company cannot take intellectual property of mine and when they are caught decide how much they will pay. Whether it's a technical glitch or not or an excitable employee, when it comes to theft, saying sorry is not enough. They'd also be the last company able to claim they weren't aware of the value of copyright pertaining to books.

The other issue they have is that they continued to rope in books and not act despite being advised back in May by authors (and maybe sooner). After I advised them in July and pushed the issue with regular emails, they still took more than two weeks to pull down my book. I technically sent them a take down notice and they didn't act with any urgency and continued to benefit after being made aware they were illegally using my audiobook.

I also told them what I expected to get paid for the use and advised I have a precedent of the value of the book via Prime. That was kind of my opening negotiation and I will maintain this stance as this is now an open negotiation.

Of course, everybody is welcome to accept or negotiate. My step is continuing with negotiation first. I'm also not a fool and I don't want to waste my head space on legal pursuits simply on principle.

To my mind, though, this is a clear case of intellectual property use without payment or permission. As I keep saying, they can't decide after the fact how much they will pay. It is my property and I will decide what I'm prepared to accept.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

Lynn Is A Pseudonym said:


> Absolutely how it should be. They didn't have permission, so they don't get to set the terms after the fact. This is like someone coming in to a house, stealing a bunch of stuff, then saying to the homeowner, "Well, I'll pay you market value for these things and we'll call it even." Amazon accepting that they're going to have to negotiate and then doing that is really the only way to make something like this right.
> 
> Good luck getting them to do the right thing.


Well, it's not a difficult case to prove here. They already displayed, by asking permission with Kindle Unlimited by ticking the Select box and asking permission for Prime inclusion, that they know you have to ask permission when using an author's book for their benefit.

Then, they've just admitted via hundreds, possibly thousands, of emails that they used audiobooks without notification to the copyright owner. So I don't see a gray area here. I've looked up a few copyright cases in relation to photographs used without out the photographer's permission, and definitely plenty of precedents. Also, the glitch excuse, or I didn't know and here's your property back so we are good (as you said), doesn't actually let them off the hook.

Yes, everybody and every company makes mistakes, but they have to pay for that mistake. Unless you don't mind and then that's your choice as the copyright owner. However, when the company of the richest man in the world makes mistakes they need to be held to account in a public forum (I hope) and financially.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

WasAnn said:


> I'm honestly shocked that I'm not hearing more about it. Or that people are shrugging this off.
> 
> If the same thing would have happened with say, books, instead of the audiobook, I think bad tingles might go up more spines.
> 
> Quite frankly, I'm surprised there isn't more coverage of this. There were a LOT of books stolen. Given the listings, it looks like many hundreds of authors.


WasAnn, that is a great analogy and exactly my thoughts. I am surprised too. Our deal with Amazon is not one of serfdom. They might treat us that way but we don't have to accept it. Turns out also, I had an acquaintance who is a retired IP and copyright attorney. I explained everything to her today and here's a summary of her thoughts.


The email is possibly a way of weeding out those who are not going to fight back, to leave those who will demand negotiation. Thus lessen the payout
This is a very clear breach of copyright. Not a shred of doubt.
While she couldn't remember the timing but the DMCA demands expeditious, diligent and appropriate action after a company is aware. My research suggest 24 hours after an entity has been advised of a breached copyright. Amazon has definitely failed in this regard, since we know this dates back to at least May. Their delay makes them even more guilty. I'd like to point out that all the books are still being shown as offered in the KU catalogue of Free audios, though many now are unable to be downloaded. However, Amazon is still representing that our books are available. Therefore, damaging us and using our property to enhance and benefit their business. This also opens them up to be breaching consumer laws by encouraging a purchase through dishonest advertising.
You might be interested to know that a very clear copyright infringement, such as this that is easy to prove, would deliver, if it went to court, _*triple damages*_, which is standard for copyright breach as a penalty. Amazon's lawyers would know this. So we aren't talking about say $2,000 if that is what you consider your audible book's worth. In that case, we are talking $6,000 damages. In my case, KDP set a value on the eBook by including it in Prime. Then I can extrapolate that value out based on the higher expense of creating the audiobook
The email offering this as a glitch is not a get out of jail free card for them and doesn't absolve them. They can't do it. Well they can do it, but you don't have to accept it. In my case, I'm not.
Even though I've paid outright for my audiobook productions, my narrator received the same email. So any 50/50 splits also affects producers and distributors. In the case of a voice artist, who is in the Actor's Guild like my guy, the Actor's Guild might also pursue this if they are made aware. My retired attorney friend assures me they are aggressive in defending the rights of their members. In this case, our interests are aligned. So this might be bigger news than we imagined.

In saying all this, pursuing this legally is the last, last resort. My way forward, as I've said, after spending a lot of time on this (and thank you WasAnn for your words of wisdom and solidarity with us who were affected), is to go back to them with what I would be satisfied with for the breach of my copyright. I'll also be sending them a take down notice to remove my audiobook from *appearing* as part of their KU Listen for Free catalogue. This makes it 6 weeks and the third request to have it removed by me. If it ever did go to legal, sure doesn't look good for them to knowingly keep advertising all those books as free listens, even if you can't download them anymore for a listen. They are still using the books to benefit their KU program ads.

Each person must decide whether it's worth it for them to reply to the email to say they don't accept the offer (quasi offer, at best).

I have had a few messages from authors who haven't commented on this thread, saying they're interested in pursuing this further. So if you are not happy and don't want to settle for peanuts, then feel free to message me and I can create a bit of an email group going forward. Just include your email with the message.

If you really feel like chewing up more time on this, you can have a look at information here on DMCA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act. I'm not an attorney obviously, so I don't know exactly how everything applies to this case but anyway good to know all this.

And the saga continues...


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

WasAnn said:


> I'm honestly shocked that I'm not hearing more about it. Or that people are shrugging this off.


I don't think anyone is shrugging it off, but there is only a limited amount anyone can say on the subject without being repetitive. There are some good posts/posters above who have a good handle on things and whilst I'm not one of the affected I'm certainly supporting a satisfactory outcome and watching this thread closely.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

KateDanley said:


> I am so sorry this happened to people! It is just awful... I would encourage everyone to join the Authors Guild and not be afraid to use their legal services if something like this happens in the future (or if you currently have a book that is still affected.)
> 
> https://www.authorsguild.org/
> 
> https://www.authorsguild.org/member-services/legal-services/


The Authors' Guild has a poor track record when it comes to actually helping authors, especially when going against the tradpubs. Since this is going against Amazon, they might be a bit more proactive. However, I would recommend joining RWA or SFWA before joining Authors' Guild, if you happen to write in those genres--even tangentially.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

David VanDyke said:


> The Authors' Guild has a poor track record when it comes to actually helping authors, especially when going against the tradpubs. Since this is going against Amazon, they might be a bit more proactive. However, I would recommend joining RWA or SFWA before joining Authors' Guild, if you happen to write in those genres--even tangentially.


Actually David G is looking into it, I believe. I think things will be reported in coming month or so once we see what happens with negotiations. Early days. Nate wrote a small article after the email came out too.


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## Nate Hoffelder (Jun 9, 2014)

WasAnn said:


> I honestly don't see how it could be a mistake in any way, shape, or form. The coding required alone to link the books to the KU ecosystem, to allow the ACX linked download without it being tallied (meaning it would have to be coded to exempt all DLs from the normal accounting channels), and the actual listening as well would have required multiple stages of code change in multiple bailiwicks, and even between two companies that...theoretically...have separate accounting.


https://xkcd.com/2030/

I could easily see this being an accident.


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## Jill Nojack (Mar 7, 2014)

WasAnn said:


> If the same thing would have happened with say, books, instead of the audiobook, I think bad tingles might go up more spines.
> 
> Think of it this way, what if this *would* have been books. Imagine if the Mighty Z had taken the most popular book in a bunch of midlist catalogs, including people just barely calling themselves midlist, and just stuck it in Prime/KU. No contract, no offer. Your book is one of them. It's your anchor, the one that gets you new readers. Now also imagine that they decided you wouldn't be paid for those reads. Not only that, but they won't even count on your records how often it's being downloaded.
> 
> They didn't ask. They didn't inform. They just did it.


This is, actually, what they do with popular trad published books that they pull into KU. Which they then compensate at the full royalty as if they book had been sold, even though it is only being borrowed. Because the agreement with the publisher is that they will be compensated "x" amount for each purchase. KU is simply counted as a purchase. No contract needed.

In this case, authors are being compensated at the full royalty for the full price of the audiobook when it is purchased a la carte, which is almost always higher than the royalty paid for a purchase made with a monthly credit or a add-this-audiobook-with-your-ebook-purchase for "x" amount.

And yes, my only audiobook got caught up in this, so I'm not uninvolved. But I'm thrilled that they are paying the full a la carte price, because that is the highest amount they would owe me if they sold the book.

There's no conspiracy here. They made a mistake. A really big one. It happens. Somebody threw the wrong (digital) switch and there was no safeguard against that happening. The bells and whistles did not fire.

It would be nowhere near as simple as unflipping that switch. Seriously, IT departments are not staffed by wizards (like most of the people who call the help desk expect). QA failures like this take time to track down, and they can't always be done quickly without potentially making things worse.

To solve it, someone first had to report it. And since it wasn't something you'd normally look for, it probably took a while for someone to do that.

First Amazon had to find the cause, then they had discover which audiobooks were affected. After that, they'd have to figure out how to get those books to be counted as sold instead of a la carte so the author could be compensated. That certainly could not be a manual process given the number of audiobooks that seem to be affected.

Only then could they undo the problem. If they tampered before researching and applying corrective code, it could have gone much more wrong and people could have ended up not getting compensated unless they knew their book had been included.

I think Amazon handled this exactly right. And I seldom agree with them


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

I got the same series of emails this week.

What I am trying to learn from this is: Can my audio books now be put in KU? And will I be compensated for downloads the same as an Audible sale? That would be awesome!

...or is this just a scrambled attempt at appeasement. How does the normal compensation work for Audible books in KU?


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## PG Allison (Oct 7, 2015)

Jill Nojack said:


> I think Amazon handled this exactly right. And I seldom agree with them


I'm merely a prawn but two of my six KU books were affected by this; here's what I am receiving for the audiobooks which they say were given away during this situation:

Missy the Werecat (Unabridged) P. G. Allison	US	20.00%	21	$24.95	$104.79
Missy's Misadventure: 
Missy the Werecat, Book 4 (Unabridged)	P. G. Allison	US	40.00%	17	$24.95	$169.66
Grand Total	38 $274.45

I don't plan on complaining.


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## Loosecannon (May 9, 2013)

Hmmm...yes, I just got another email from them about royalties owed and totals in an XLS file.  Should I assume that next month we'll get another 'Audio given away free' report and extra payment too, as the 'mistake' wasn't shut off completely until August sometime right..?


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## Trevor H Cooley (Jun 29, 2012)

I noticed that the report I received said JULY EARNINGS at the top. Didn't we first start noticing these problems in May? What about the sales from May and June?


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Trevor H Cooley (Jun 29, 2012)

WasAnn said:


> Yes, the original poster on this thread brought it to light in May, but no one really commented on it for their own books for a long time. It's hard to know when it started.


All 14 of my books were affected so I'm really interested to see when this started. My Audible sales started to slow around May, but I didn't have any proof that anything was wrong until I got that first email from them and came here and saw this thread.

If this really is just payment for KU borrows on my books in July I want to see payment for May, June, and whenever they got this straightened out in August.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

I received the same email with the amount per download. I'm going back to them now to talk numbers. 

I've advised that I don't accept their offer of compensation and am listing why. They should be paying this the same as they pay for Prime Reading inclusion, which is a lump sum. Possibly if my book hadn't already been valued in Prime for a reasonable amount, I mightn't feel so strongly about this. So I understand others might feel it's okay.

I haven't heard from the rep who has handled this for me from the start, which is kinda rude because her last message was that she would get back to me once they had investigated how it happened and what they were thinking of in compensation. 

Thus begins negotiations, which anyone who has had an illegal use of their copyrighted material, is well entitled to do. Amazon is no different to any other company or person who uses intellectual property illegally. A glitch isn't an excuse. Otherwise anyone can cause an accident and the absolve themselves by saying "Its a glitch, sorry. Here's $100 or whatever to make up for it." I doubt courts see that as an excuse. 

Also, my book is still showing as included in the program on the Free audiobooks in Kindle Unlimited link, although it's now not able to be downloaded for free as an audio. So they are still using it, and others that are no longer available, to promote their program. Not cool.


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## CallMeRed (May 12, 2016)

Trevor H Cooley said:


> If this really is just payment for KU borrows on my books in July I want to see payment for May, June, and whenever they got this straightened out in August.


From what I understand from talking to them the payment we received was for July backwards to when it started. But perhaps I misunderstood. It sounded like there may be a bit more in coming months perhaps the bit it was included in August. Which I don't think will be much because my books were taken down in the first few days of the month.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

Yes, I'm pretty sure the money we got was for all downloads across the months. I received $9.60 per audiobook download when all was said and done. I have no idea how long my audiobook was in KU but I had a lot of 'free' downloads in KU so I'm more than happy with the payout - plus I heard from listeners who went on to buy the others audiobooks in the series so it ended up being a win for me. Honestly, if KU were to actually _ask_ me to use my audiobook and offered to pay me like they did, I'd be all in. 

And Susan, I totally get where you're coming from and absolutely don't condone using our copyrighted audiobooks without permission so I'm happy you're fighting for what you believe. My book was also in US Prime about two years ago (and is currently in the program in Australia) but I didn't get close to what you got for inclusion (Mine was $1000). So for me, my acx 'mistake payout' was much better than Prime.


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## SusanMayWriter (Jan 7, 2014)

jmb3 said:


> Yes, I'm pretty sure the money we got was for all downloads across the months. I received $9.60 per audiobook download when all was said and done. I have no idea how long my audiobook was in KU but I had a lot of 'free' downloads in KU so I'm more than happy with the payout - plus I heard from listeners who went on to buy the others audiobooks in the series so it ended up being a win for me. Honestly, if KU were to actually _ask_ me to use my audiobook and offered to pay me like they did, I'd be all in.
> 
> And Susan, I totally get where you're coming from and absolutely don't condone using our copyrighted audiobooks without permission so I'm happy you're fighting for what you believe. My book was also in US Prime about two years ago (and is currently in the program in Australia) but I didn't get close to what you got for inclusion (Mine was $1000). So for me, my acx 'mistake payout' was much better than Prime.


I'm glad their mistake worked out for you. There are various trains of thought on that and I think everybody, based on their own experience, should do what they think best. Glad you had a win. Awesome.


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## Trevor H Cooley (Jun 29, 2012)

jmb3 said:


> Yes, I'm pretty sure the money we got was for all downloads across the months. I received $9.60 per audiobook download when all was said and done. I have no idea how long my audiobook was in KU but I had a lot of 'free' downloads in KU so I'm more than happy with the payout - plus I heard from listeners who went on to buy the others audiobooks in the series so it ended up being a win for me. Honestly, if KU were to actually _ask_ me to use my audiobook and offered to pay me like they did, I'd be all in.
> 
> And Susan, I totally get where you're coming from and absolutely don't condone using our copyrighted audiobooks without permission so I'm happy you're fighting for what you believe. My book was also in US Prime about two years ago (and is currently in the program in Australia) but I didn't get close to what you got for inclusion (Mine was $1000). So for me, my acx 'mistake payout' was much better than Prime.


 To say you're pretty sure it was for all three months is fine. But it specifically says July unit sales. June and may are not mentioned. It's not broken down by date in any way. What if there's another 1000 dollars worth of sales you didn't get credit for yet? We need to make sure that we get what we are owed.


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