# How one author earns $100k+/year using Kindle Unlimited



## novelleist (Jun 21, 2021)

I interviewed the author DC Kalbach, who earns $100k+ writing romance novels (under another pen name) for Kindle Unlimited and thought it might be helpful to other writers here. Here's what he said about how he achieved success on the platform.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I appreciate the interview, but I think you're readers and authors a disservice by not talking about how a male romance author is coming into a space for women... it's complicated--the sexual politics of romance novels are very complicated--but there's a big history of male romance authors trashing readers behind their backs or manipulating them.

There are tons of authors who have six-figure success success with 2-6 books a year. Mentioning one of the biggest authors in KU as your example of a less prolific who is successful is not giving people an accurate view of indie authordom. Most full-time indies are mid listers. Only discussing the biggest, most successful authors is a trad view of authoring. It isn't an indie view. & these people aren't helpful role models for new authors. They're spending six-figures a year (or month even) on advertising. Nothing wrong with that (I spend plenty), but it's out of reach for most people. It would be more helpful to new authors to interview authors who found success in the last few years.


----------



## loriann (Jun 20, 2014)

I enjoyed your interview and found it inspiring. I’ve always loved author interviews dating back to college when I read the Paris Review interviews with writers like Hemingway and they’d describe when & how they wrote. Maybe No. 2 pencils, standing up, from 8am - 12 noon (then hit the bars! I think that was Hem in Key West). 

I don’t read or write romance, but it’s all interesting to me. Although I finally began eking out a profit this year in one series, I know that should I wish to make a lot more money, odds are I need to be more prolific. To those who can write a book every two weeks or every month or every three, hats off to you. I’m still trying to finish the one I started in January. I’m the turtle, not the hare, and am in this for the long game. Bless us all!


----------



## Clay (Apr 17, 2020)

Crystal_ said:


> I appreciate the interview, but I think you're readers and authors a disservice by not talking about how a male romance author is coming into a space for women...


Romance is NOT exclusively a space for women. Men are free to read and write romance if they wish.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Not exclusively, no, but there's a huge history of people denigrating romance because it's for women. Men are welcome to read romance, but MF romance is mostly written by women, for women. A lot of romance spaces are assumed to be all women. Again, complicated, but what's not complicated is the history of men coming into romance and behaving badly. Not all male romance authors, but enough that women are skeptical.

Remember Chance Carter? Dude was sketchy AF and he was hardly alone.

I know a handful of male romance authors. Most are cool. A few are kinda sketch. Some are open about being men, some aren't, some keep it vague. I'm pretty sure I know who the author in this interview is. If I'm right, he's a good guy (it's highly possible I'm not right). But I know plenty of men who came into romance with no respect for women and/or with the intention of manipulating women readers.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Clay said:


> Romance is NOT exclusively a space for women. Men are free to read and write romance if they wish.


Yeah, it's books not the changing room at the pool.


----------



## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

Comment to be notified.


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

I found the interview interesting, although not too much different from what you can glean from successful authors here on KB. Treat it as a business, produce, produce, produce.


----------



## Kathy Dee (Aug 27, 2016)

Enjoyed the article, thanks for posting.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Not exclusively, no, but there's a huge history of people denigrating romance because it's for women. Men are welcome to read romance, but MF romance is mostly written by women, for women. A lot of romance spaces are assumed to be all women. Again, complicated, but what's not complicated is the history of men coming into romance and behaving badly. Not all male romance authors, but enough that women are skeptical.
> 
> Remember Chance Carter? Dude was sketchy AF and he was hardly alone.
> 
> I know a handful of male romance authors. Most are cool. A few are kinda sketch. Some are open about being men, some aren't, some keep it vague. I'm pretty sure I know who the author in this interview is. If I'm right, he's a good guy (it's highly possible I'm not right). But I know plenty of men who came into romance with no respect for women and/or with the intention of manipulating women readers.


I just watched "Naughty Books" on Hulu about the erotic romance genre, it's authors, and fans, and every one of the authors writing romance uses a pen name. So how would you actually know which author was man and which was female?

Dee


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I know because they tell me or tell others.

There are some authors I know who may or may not be men. I don't ask. I respect their privacy. But people have asked me about them. Most authors who engage with readers or other authors offer specific detailed about their life, post pics, talk events. Not necessarily a lot but enough people pick up on the absence of a picture and the lack of mentions of typical female interests and life events.

If someone is respectful and they don't use their status as an author to manipulate readers, no one really cares their gender identity. The problem is when men pose as women and ask intimate questions about readers' sex lives in FB groups (this happened). Having a gender neutral or female pen name is fine (though readers might be unhappy if you're outed. It depends what you write. Writing misogynistic tropes isn't okay as a woman IMO but it's more excusable. A man writing an alpha hole has no cover of reclaiming women's right to fantasize about whatever they want. He's a man telling women to accept mistreatment). Using your female pen name to catfish readers in personal interactions is not.

If you don't know how men often behave towards romance or how men have historically come into romance and behaved badly, that's fine. But don't tell me it doesn't happen because you haven't personally seen it when you also haven't been looking (general you).

I have no idea what goes on in sci-fi fantasy. If you write in other genres, you probably don't have a full picture of the landscape in romance. That's fine but don't pretend otherwise

The sexual and gender politics in romance are very complicated. I've been in the genre seven years, thinking about this for all of them, and I still don't completely understand them. If you haven't been watching closely for a long time you don't understand the nuances either.


----------



## LSBurton (Jan 31, 2014)

jb1111 said:


> I found the interview interesting, although not too much different from what you can glean from successful authors here on KB. Treat it as a business, produce, produce, produce.


True. If you step off the hamster wheel for a second, you hear the motor revving down.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Crystal_ said:


> I know because they tell me or tell others.
> 
> There are some authors I know who may or may not be men. I don't ask. I respect their privacy. But people have asked me about them. Most authors who engage with readers or other authors offer specific detailed about their life, post pics, talk events. Not necessarily a lot but enough people pick up on the absence of a picture and the lack of mentions of typical female interests and life events.


You're assuming people are male just because they don't post about "typical feminine interests and life events"? Like what if they don't have kids and a husband?



Crystal_ said:


> If someone is respectful and they don't use their status as an author to manipulate readers, no one really cares their gender identity. The problem is when men pose as women and ask intimate questions about readers' sex lives in FB groups (this happened). Having a gender neutral or female pen name is fine (though readers might be unhappy if you're outed. It depends what you write. Writing misogynistic tropes isn't okay as a woman IMO but it's more excusable. A man writing an alpha hole has no cover of reclaiming women's right to fantasize about whatever they want. He's a man telling women to accept mistreatment). Using your female pen name to catfish readers in personal interactions is not.


With all due respect you are being super sexist. You're using like one instance of some creeper on social media as a reason to ban men from a whole genre. I'd say it's pretty weird for _any_ author to be asking intimate questions of readers unless maybe they're a sex therapist writing sex advice books. This is coming off like big bad man taking advantage of poor feeble-minded women folk when these readers are grown adults fully aware they are sharing to the public on social media and that most writers have pen names so they have no idea who this person really is. 

Then you say it's excusable if a woman is writing certain things but if a man writes them off with his head? Saying a male author is trying to get women to "accept mistreatment" is kind of assuming the worst. I'd assume most anyone writing alpha hole saw that it sells and wanted to make $$$ before any other reason.

Also 18% of romance readers are men, which is a minority but a significant one. About the Romance Genre (rwa.org) I'm sure you know that already, but just for everyone else since you're painting it like zero men read it.


----------



## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> Also 18% of romance readers are men, which is a minority but a significant one. About the Romance Genre (rwa.org) I'm sure you know that already, but just for everyone else since you're painting it like zero men read it.


Would've never guessed that. Very interesting data straight from a good source. Thanks for posting.

Edit: Never mind. It's hypothetical and unreliable.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> With all due respect you are being super sexist. You're using like one instance of some creeper on social media as a reason to ban men from a whole genre. I'd say it's pretty weird for _any_ author to be asking intimate questions of readers unless maybe they're a sex therapist writing sex advice books. This is coming off like big bad man taking advantage of poor feeble-minded women folk when these readers are grown adults fully aware they are sharing to the public on social media and that most writers have pen names so they have no idea who this person really is.


If a cisman is presenting as a woman, posing as a woman as he engages with romance readers, he is a big, bad man, taking advantage of women. There is a power imbalance between authors and their fans. Fans will often look up to authors, trust them, feel they know them. This isn't the case, but it is how fans feel. 

Authors are the ones responsible for behaving well in this relationship. Readers have their own issues, sure, but authors absolutely can and do take advantage of readers in all sorts of ways. It's not just men posing as women. There are hundreds of ways authors take advantage of readers--asking for free labor is the most common.

Romance books are about sex. Readers absolutely do bring up sex with authors, and with each other. It's part of the subject matter of the book. I've had a number of readers write me to tell me I improved their sex lives.

They feel comfortable telling me this for a number of reasons. It's not just that I'm also a woman, but that is a part of it. 

In a public group, yes, it's on readers if they assume everyone is a woman. But of course a reader will assume a person with a female pen name is a woman. It is on the author using the female pen name to correct people/make sure they don't take advantage.

Do you actually participate in social media where romance readers and authors hang? Most authors post pictures of themselves. And most talk about their husband, kids, pets, clothes, periods. People casually bring up their gender all. the. time. It's extremely obvious when someone is intentionally avoiding it. That's just not how people talk.

The survey you linked is not really saying 18% of readers are men. It is a five year old survey where someone polled random people to ask if they might read a romance sometime in the next year. It is not a break down of actual reader behavior--the kind of data Amazon has. I would love to see a break down of actual reader behavior. I am sure some men read romance, but I would guess the percentage is very low, sub 5%.

I recommended _The Kiss Quotient_ to a friend. He read it. That doesn't make him a romance reader. It makes him a guy who read a romance one time.

This isn't the main point of this thread, and you are arguing straw men arguments in bad faith. I'm out.


----------



## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

Should've read the Source and Methodology.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> If a cisman is presenting as a woman, posing as a woman as he engages with romance readers, he is a big, bad man, taking advantage of women.


OH-MY-GOD!!! And I guess "cis-female" writers like JK Rowling and Nora Roberts who write mysteries under pen names to hide the fact that they're female from the mainly male audience for that genre are okay in your book?

Dee


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Darryl Hughes said:


> OH-MY-GOD!!! And I guess "cis-female" writers like JK Rowling and Nora Roberts who write mysteries under pen names to hide the fact that they're female from the mainly male audience for that genre are okay in your book?
> 
> Dee


Exactly. It's a double standard and extremely sexist to both women and men. She's acting like women are weak creatures in need of protection from someone using a pen name like probably the vast majority of indie authors. I don't see the difference in using a female pen name in a female-dominated genre vs. using a male pen name in a male-dominated genre. 

Someone bringing up intimate sexual issues with an author they know nothing about kind of seems like that person needs a psychologist and probably the author too if they aren't being professional and shutting that shit down. If a reader sent me an email or message that started going into their sex life, I'd bin it and politely block them. It's inappropriate regardless of the genders of those involved.



Crystal_ said:


> The survey you linked is not really saying 18% of readers are men. It is a five year old survey where someone polled random people to ask if they might read a romance sometime in the next year. It is not a break down of actual reader behavior--the kind of data Amazon has. I would love to see a break down of actual reader behavior. I am sure some men read romance, but I would guess the percentage is very low, sub 5%.


Why is your _guess_ more reliable than actual data even if said data has limitations? You're welcome to prove this wrong with more reliable statistics, but it's kind of silly to say oh this data is terrible and you're wrong because _here's my guess_.



Crystal_ said:


> I recommended _The Kiss Quotient_ to a friend. He read it. That doesn't make him a romance reader. It makes him a guy who read a romance one time.


This seems like gate-keeping.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Yes, it's different for a man to use a female pen name than it is for a woman to use a male pen name. There's a different power imbalance.

But I don't know the thriller audience, so I can't comment on the expectations there.

JK Rowling is hardly a good example of a well behaving author. But I would bet a lot of money she, if anyone, would be adamantly against men using female pen names.

In any case, I haven't and am not saying men can't use female pen names. Or men can't write romance. I would love to see more respectful men writing romance with male pen names (I understand why people use female pen names and they're free to do it, but, in the age of social media, it's best to either withhold details completely or be forthright IMO).

I'm saying it is something worth discussing. 

I'm the only romance author here AFAIK and I'm telling you, for better or worse, readers and authors generally assume MF romance is a space by women, for women.

Maybe that's not how it should be, but it is how it is.


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

One takeaway I get from the back-and-forth about male romance writers using female pen names is that if a male author using a female pen name sells a lot of books and has a lot of female readers, that author must be doing something right, because the books are selling.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Crystal_ said:


> Yes, it's different for a man to use a female pen name than it is for a woman to use a male pen name. There's a different power imbalance.


Why is there a different power imbalance? Would you say the same about a female teacher and students vs. a male teacher? You seem to just keep saying it's okay for women to do certain things, but it's wrong if men do them.



Crystal_ said:


> JK Rowling is hardly a good example of a well behaving author. But I would bet a lot of money she, if anyone, would be adamantly against men using female pen names.


She's a TERF so I'd take that bet as well.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

jb1111 said:


> One takeaway I get from the back-and-forth about male romance writers using female pen names is that if a male author using a female pen name sells a lot of books and has a lot of female readers, that author must be doing something right, because the books are selling.


Amen.

Dee


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> Why is there a different power imbalance? Would you say the same about a female teacher and students vs. a male teacher? You seem to just keep saying it's okay for women to do certain things, but it's wrong if men do them.
> 
> 
> 
> She's a TERF so I'd take that bet as well.


Exactly. On both counts. She seems to be all like if a woman writes a romance it's about two people falling in love and making love, but if it's a man writing it it's all about the man having power and f*cking the woman. Gimme a break.

And I don't know what "romances" she's reading, but the top sellers on Amazon amount to little more then EL James-esque, "50 Shades of Grey" like "chick porn" for women to (as a female friend of mine likes to say) "flick their beans" to. But somehow women always seem to find a way to elevate their "porn" to something lofty like "romance". Gimme a break.

Dee


----------



## Clay (Apr 17, 2020)

A while back I remember reading Crystal claim that anyone who dismissed the Hunger Games as a great book were only doing it because it was aimed at teenage girls, and therefore they were sexist. There are lots of reasons for someone to dislike the Hunger Games that have NOTHING to do with sexism. I think that's the case of the pot calling the kettle black. 

Those men writing romance under pen names are doing it for the exact same reason some women use gender neutral pennames. And they have every right to do so.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Darryl Hughes said:


> *And I don't know what "romances" she's reading, but the top sellers on Amazon amount to little more then EL James-esque, "50 Shades of Grey" like "chick porn" for women to (as a female friend of mine likes to say) "flick their beans" to. But somehow women always seem to find a way to elevate their "porn" to something lofty like "romance". Gimme a break.*


Thank you for proving my point.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I write romance because it's the only way I can get a guy to say what I want him to. People who toss in a little erotica always make more money than clean romance writers. Why is that, I wonder. Don't answer that, okay?


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Thank you for proving my point.


And your point would be what? Because all those "chick porn" books are written by women. Unless EL James, CJ Roberts, Kellie Maine, etc, suddenly grew penises and didn't tell anyone.

Dee


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Marti talbott said:


> I write romance because it's the only way I can get a guy to say what I want him to. People who toss in a little erotica always make more money than clean romance writers. Why is that, I wonder. Don't answer that, okay?


Because sex sells? Because people like to read about sex, as a form of escape?

A lot of romances have lots of sex in them because it apparently works. It's exciting. I've seen romances with explicit sex in the LookInsides, even more than some erotica I've seen or read. The books seem to sell well. There must be a reason for that.

Crystal makes a frequent point that romance is different from erotica -- even if the amount of sex in the books is similar -- because romance in general is more focused on the development of an actual relationship (although there is a lot of erotica that deals with the workings of relationships). Her point is probably valid. Romance without a relationship is hardly romantic at all.

Either way, I think we can all agree that there are some romance writers making tons, and perhaps some of them are male writers using female pen names, and they must be doing something right if they're selling. Can't fault that too much.


----------



## nail file (Sep 12, 2018)

Darryl Hughes said:


> And your point would be what? Because all those "chick porn" books are written by women. Unless EL James, CJ Roberts, Kellie Maine, etc, suddenly grew penises and didn't tell anyone.
> 
> Dee


Wow.

Way to not have an understanding of what they've written, how they compare to the other romance out there and denigrate that they're successful in writing a romance story that readers actually gravitate towards.

But please, continue to be derisive and disrespectful. People who don't write romance just _love _to shit on a genre they don't write in or enjoy reading.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

jb1111 said:


> Either way, I think we can all agree that there are some romance writers making tons, and perhaps some of them are male writers using female pen names, and they must be doing something right if they're selling. Can't fault that too much.


Thank you. That's all everybody is saying. Well, almost everybody.

Dee


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

nail file said:


> Wow.
> 
> Way to not have an understanding of what they've written, how they compare to the other romance out there and denigrate that they're successful in writing a romance story that readers actually gravitate towards.
> 
> But please, continue to be derisive and disrespectful. People who don't write romance just _love _to shit on a genre they don't write in or enjoy reading.


I'm not comparing "chick porn" to a romance novel in any way other then the fact that they sell a f*ck-ton of books. And yes, "chick porn" does out sell romance. Go check the sales ranks at Amazon, B&S, etc, the top of the sales charts is all "chick porn" just like I said.

But no, I look at a woman reading a romance novel or a chick porn book on the bus or the train with A LOT MORE RESPECT then a woman would if she saw a man on the bus or the train checking out PornHub on his phone. You ladies want your porn just like us guys want ours. You just want to convince yourselves that YOUR PORN is somehow loftier then ours. It isn't.

And as far as being "derisive and disrespectful? You need to read this thread over from the beginning. This was a simple thread about an interview with a guy who wrote romance novels under a female pen name and then Crystal injected all the BS sexual politics of the sexual power dynamic of a man using a female pen name to get female readers to buy his books or some such nonsense. So check your facts.

Dee


----------



## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

So much cringe in this thread. Total mens rights vibes. And having an opinion that doesn't align with anther's isn't gatekeeping. No one here has the power to stop anyone else from doing what they want, to suggest as much in an indie author forum is really OTT.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

What I said was gatekeeping was when she said someone wasn't a "romance reader" unless they read so many books, just FYI. I was saying she was gatekeeping who is and isn't a reader.


----------



## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

I get that, but Crystal doesn't get to decide who's a reader of what, so in my eyes it's not gatekeeping. That requires power. She's just sharing what she believes based on her experience of writing and selling romance books for a healthy chunk of the last decade. Amazon keeps so much data from us, so all we're left with is our own deductions. And if we can't even share what we think we deduced from years of experience without it devolving like this thread did, what are we doing here?


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

Bite the Dusty said:


> So much cringe in this thread. Total mens rights vibes.


It's not a "men's right's" thing. Women have every right to enjoy their romance/"chick porn" books. All I'm saying is don't try to fool yourself that Nora Roberts romance novels or EL James "chick porn" books aren't exactly the same thing used for exactly the same reasons as PornHub and other "guy porn". Which is what you ladies do. You try to elevate your porn to try to differentiate it from "guy porn" and on a basic level it isn't any different at all. It's there to help us scratch an itch. No pun intended.

Dee


----------



## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

Darryl Hughes said:


> It's not a "men's right's" thing. All I'm saying is don't try to fool yourself that Nora Roberts romance novels or EL James "chick porn" books aren't exactly the same thing used for exactly the same reasons as PornHub and other "men's porn". Which is what you ladies do.
> 
> Dee


What does that have to do with male romance authors, best practices, and thoughtfulness when using female pen names and interacting with a primarily female readership?

I don't know, but I suspect no one cares whether or not reading romance (oftentimes about emotional connection as much or more than the physical chemistry) is akin to pornhub. IME that's not the case. I've read a good amount of erotica, not to be confused with romance, and even that is a different experience than porn. To me, your takes are misinformed and irrelevant to the discussion as it pertains to indie authors, but have at it.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

Bite the Dusty said:


> What does that have to do with male romance authors, best practices, and thoughtfulness when using female pen names and interacting with a primarily female readership?


Why is the first assumption that, solely because he's male, that an author using a female pen name is doing something shady. Nowhere in the nterview is it even suggested that this guy was up to anything shady. He's just using a female pen name. The "shady" is Crystal's hangup and hers alone. Because he's using a female pen name on spec he's up to "something". BUT, as I mentioned before, when JK Rowling or Nora Roberts use male pen names to better appeal to the majority male mystery genre audience that's just fine and dandy? Careful ladies, your double standards are showing.

Dee


----------



## NikOK (Jun 27, 2020)

Marti talbott said:


> I write romance because it's the only way I can get a guy to say what I want him to.


This made me laugh. It's so true. I like to do a lot of inner dialog with my male protagonists in romancey situations to add a level of, even if we don't always say everything, we mean to. Because that's how I like to think about guys in romance. We're just kind of awkward about the details, but the love is there  

As far as men with female pen names, I feel like I get it from a business standpoint, but in the end it's that author's decision, and it's a decision they make knowing that it might have consequences. If I was trying to pass for a woman (I don't know why, but sure) and it came out that I was a guy and there was fallout from that, well, how much room would I really have to complain about the situation? Those authors know they are creating a potential conflict for the sake of trying to sell books. It's a bummer because there are definitely some male romance authors out there who just want to write their books, but if you make the choice to try to pass as somebody else, then I think it's hard to cry sexism when it crumbles. Because it's your choice. Anybody is fine to do it. Everybody should know that it comes with pitfalls.

And moreover, I think that it doesn't help the overall climate of romance books if you are a man writing as a woman. You're just adding to the idea that it's us and them by trying to fake something. The idea that men can't write romance only exists until there is a really great romance written by a man. Be honest, and let your work speak for you. Maybe it hurts sales today, which does suck, but it's the only way that the genre can become open to more male writers.


----------



## Clay (Apr 17, 2020)

Men using female names, women using male names, either gender using initials to hide their real gender, this is all very common. Even famous writers have done it, several have been mentioned already.

It's not sexist for a man to use a female pseudonym.



NikOK said:


> The idea that men can't write romance only exists until there is a really great romance written by a man




Romance is the most popular genre in fiction, with tons of sub genre's that appeal to various tastes. The most popular niches in romance are mostly popcorn fiction, quick easy reads that don't take a long time to write. LOTS of men write those books and they make tons of money doing it. It's a job.

The people upset about it are the real sexist, they're mad because they don't want men playing in their playpen.



_Edited. - Becca_


----------



## Madeline2015 (Jul 3, 2021)

Hi Guys, you don't know me but I am a LONG time lurker who just got an account right now because the plot lady on the other thread doesn't have a way to contact her on her site, so posting on here was the only way. Anyway, I'm not about to get into the drama of this thread but just saying I hope no one believes the figures on the RWA site about what percentage of groups read romance, etc. It's completely inaccurate and insulting. I don't know where they get their info from but it's WRONG. They have only 12% of black women reading romance? Really? I hope no one believes this. We read just as much romance as white women, thank you very much. 

I also doubt the other percentages are accurate. I'm also not sure about 18% men. Where are they getting this from? Sure, men read romance but I doubt that many and if it were, they wouldn't admit it. Yeah, but who is the RWA surveying because they sure aren't talking to any of the black readers I know. I am a black author who writes romance among other genres and my audience is primarily black women. There are millions of us writing romance and millions of us reading it. Again, this RWA crap is insulting and I don't want folks thinking only 12% of blacks read romance. We probably read more romance than white women.

Okay, that's all I had to say. Feels weird to come out of hiding after all these years. 😁


----------



## NikOK (Jun 27, 2020)

Madeline2015 said:


> Okay, that's all I had to say. Feels weird to come out of hiding after all these years. 😁


Thanks for the info about the RWA site. It's always hard to know what's what when you hear about polls and things. And thanks for posting  Things are usually pretty nice around here, and you opinion is always welcome.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

For those of you who keep insisting that the RWA statistics are completely inaccurate, I'm genuinely interested in seeing better data that proves your point. Otherwise I'm not sure why guesses and personal feelings are somehow more credible than an actual survey? Opinion doesn't equal information.


----------



## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

Inaccurate isn't the word I'd choose, but it's a poll. If I was a romance author, with access to romance readers on FB or on my mailing list, I'd be focused on that first hand information too if it conflicted with a poll by an organization like RWA. No data pool that small will be helpful to everyone, no matter where it comes from though.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Detailed editing of posts is difficult when I'm moderating via phone, so I've let some unfortunate material remain visible for now. Warnings have been issued for profanity, personal attacks, and baiting. If any newer members need explanations of our rules in these areas, they should check out the pinned thread on KB's Forum Decorum.


----------



## Madeline2015 (Jul 3, 2021)

NikOK said:


> Thanks for the info about the RWA site. It's always hard to know what's what when you hear about polls and things. And thanks for posting  Things are usually pretty nice around here, and you opinion is always welcome.


Thanks, NiKOK!

I always found you to be such a nice and positive person. But others' flip comments doubting anyone who dares question the RWA and doing so with such close-mindedness to what others with experience says, is exactly why I never felt like posted on Kboards before and why I won't continue to. But you are a bright light, NikOK and seeing kind people like you online is always refreshing and welcomed.

I wish you well!


----------



## Madeline2015 (Jul 3, 2021)

One more thing I'll say and then I am gone. If someone thinks the RWA talks to every reader and author for these "polls" then they are sadly mistaken. And my "proof" is being a black woman, a black author who sells to black women readers primarily and who knows that audience. My proof is also being around black women all my life who have read romance. I'm sure Harlequin could vouch on how much black women read it since Kimani made them millions of dollars for decades. If only 12% of black women read romance then would all these pubs have black romance imprints? I think not if that little measly amount is all that reads it. The truth is minority readers and their habits are grossly underestimated and ignored and most of these industry places don't even take us into account. Same for indies in general. These places aren't polling but a tiny percentage of authors who are in their organization. People who are members of the RWA do not represent the entire romance community, in case some don't know that. They take a few figures from trade pubs who probably publish less than 10% minority authors and go off that. Not accurate at all. When RWA or all these other places start surveying indies and a decent percentage of LGBT and minority readers then we can say the numbers are more accurate. But it IS insulting for any poll to make it look like black women aren't out here reading romance books or any other books just as much as others. Most women read romance. That's just the truth. Most black women read. Yes, we read like everyone else. So I stand by saying 12% is completely wrong. And again insulting because RWA is not taking the time to talk to us and our readers. You gotta come to where most black readers are and most these days buy indie books. Going on trade books is misguided and I worked in trade publishing for years. So I know. But if anyone wants proof of what I am saying then go talk to black romance readers and you will find your proof. Immerse yourself in that community and you will see there is way more than 12% reading romance. Please. If I showed readers this survey they would laugh. Again, the RWA does not represent everyone and everything in romance. I know some people take their surveys and words as gospel but it's not.

I'm not some idiot who doesn't know what I am talking about. I have been around for years and worked in trade, wrote for trade, and now have been indie for years. So I'm not some newbie that is just sprouting stuff out. I just ask these places to take the time to talk to other groups and stop going on everything trade publishers hand them. These groups don't talk to indie readers and don't talk to indie authors beyond who is a member of RWA. Millions of romance authors are not members of RWA. People might be shocked to know that but the RWA is not the prime expert on romance like some think.

But for those who believe those questioning the poll are wrong, you can go on believing that minority women, LGBT, or anyone else don't read romance as much as white women.  That's your right. Instead of asking for proof from others who dispute the poll, why don't you ask RWA who exactly they do and don't survey? Seems like no one ever questions them and that's the issue right there. But it's so easy to believe them over I don't know...people with more experience in certain groups as a reader and writer than RWA could ever have.

But yeah, it didn't take long for me to remember WHY I never felt comfortable posting here in years. 

On that note, take care, everyone!


----------



## NikOK (Jun 27, 2020)

Madeline2015 said:


> I wish you well!


Right back at you  Thanks for stopping in to say hi. I completely hear you about posting, and in the end, it's just an internet forum. I'm just glad that you jumped in and I got to learn something from it. All the best!


----------



## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Madeline2015 said:


> If only 12% of black women read romance then would all these pubs have black romance imprints? I think not if that little measly amount is all that reads it.


While I sincerely agree with your sentiments, broadly speaking, I do want to take a moment to unpack this.

A 12% share of Black American Romance readers tracks well with the Black American population at about 13-14% overall. Still, why would there be a disparity? Because Black people in America are over a decade younger than whites, on average, and because of accompanying gaps in income, education, wealth, &c., it's not surprising that Black readers would be a bit underrepresented in most genres.

Most white readers are literally able to read for years longer than their Black counterparts because they aren't dead yet.

Disparities like this are real, are appalling, and are not necessarily a product of bad sampling.

That said, Black American women is a group that includes, what? About 23 million people of all ages? That's enormous. Malcolm Gladwell has barely been able to reach 10% of that number with any title he's ever released. It's _unquestionably _a market large enough to support publishers, let alone imprints or indy authors. The number of authors who will ever serve an audience larger than four to five figures of reliable readers is vanishingly small. None of us need to get that big unless we decide, arbitrarily and unreasonably, that it's a quixotic goal of ours.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Madeline2015 said:


> One more thing I'll say and then I am gone. If someone thinks the RWA talks to every reader and author for these "polls" then they are sadly mistaken. And my "proof" is being a black woman, a black author who sells to black women readers primarily and who knows that audience. My proof is also being around black women all my life who have read romance. I'm sure Harlequin could vouch on how much black women read it since Kimani made them millions of dollars for decades. If only 12% of black women read romance then would all these pubs have black romance imprints? I think not if that little measly amount is all that reads it.


I'm just going to point out here that if these statistics are from the United States, 12% is only slightly less than the percentage of the overall population who is black. So that's not really saying that black women don't read romance but rather that the number is proportionate to the general population.



Madeline2015 said:


> The truth is minority readers and their habits are grossly underestimated and ignored and most of these industry places don't even take us into account. Same for indies in general. These places aren't polling but a tiny percentage of authors who are in their organization. People who are members of the RWA do not represent the entire romance community, in case some don't know that. They take a few figures from trade pubs who probably publish less than 10% minority authors and go off that. Not accurate at all. When RWA or all these other places start surveying indies and a decent percentage of LGBT and minority readers then we can say the numbers are more accurate.


I certainly don't doubt that they are disproportionately polling trad pubs and underpolling minorities. That's actually a very valid criticism.



Madeline2015 said:


> But it IS insulting for any poll to make it look like black women aren't out here reading romance books or any other books just as much as others.


You're reading too much into it. *No one said one single thing about reading in general.* And as I pointed out, they _aren't_ making it look like black women aren't reading romance books as much as others since the data showed the amount of romance readers is proportionate with the general population. According to the poll, it's actually my own ethnicity that disproportionately reads very little romance compared to our share of the population, and I'm not over here getting offended about it.



Madeline2015 said:


> Most women read romance. That's just the truth.


I seriously doubt that. I honestly don't know anyone in real life who reads romance. This is what I mean by making assertions with nothing to back it up. It's not the truth just because you're a romance writer and reader and you say it is.



Madeline2015 said:


> Most black women read. Yes, we read like everyone else.


No one ever said they don't.



Madeline2015 said:


> I'm not some idiot who doesn't know what I am talking about.


No one said you were.



Madeline2015 said:


> But for those who believe those questioning the poll are wrong, you can go on believing that minority women, LGBT, or anyone else don't read romance as much as white women.  That's your right. Instead of asking for proof from others who dispute the poll, why don't you ask RWA who exactly they do and don't survey? Seems like no one ever questions them and that's the issue right there. But it's so easy to believe them over I don't know...people with more experience in certain groups as a reader and writer than RWA could ever have.


I never said you were wrong for questioning it. I just said that I'm interested in seeing better data to prove that it's wrong rather than just anecdotes. The only other data I could find was from Neilson, who used different methodology and had similar findings

Who Reads Romance Novels? This Infographic Has The Answer (bustle.com)

I think you made some very good points about flaws in existing data, but the existing data being flawed also doesn't mean that whatever you say is true just because you say it, and asking for proof is not implying that you're stupid or trying to offend you.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Someone very wise once said, men and women have the exact same emotions, they just react to them differently. I try to keep that in mind when I, a female, write a man's dialogue. I think I might have missed the subject of this thread. Sorry.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

There's plenty of porn on Amazon. It's in the erotica category and it stands out from the literary erotica and erotic romance in the category.

There's a huge history of erotica & porn authors fighting with Amazon, getting their accounts nuked, pushing the line, getting erotic romances and other romances pushed into the erotica category.

If you can't tell the difference between porn and romance, that's on you. Romances may be explicit. They may be wall to wall sex scenes. But the sex scenes aren't there solely to titillate. They're there to push the relationship forward & explore intimacy. (Sex scenes just for hotness happens sometimes, the way action movies sometimes have gratuitous explosions or fight scenes).

It's like I say to a lot of my straight, male friends: masturbation is great. It's just as physically pleasurable as sex. It gets the job done. If you invite someone to engage in a sexual experience with them, the experience should be about connecting with the other person. It might be a short term connection. It might be a long term connection. But it's now an event for two (or more). If you treat it like masturbation--only what you want, what interests you, what gets your motor running, without regard to the other person's interests and comfort--then you're anything between a bad lay, an ahole, and a sexual predator. Depending on the situation. (Most people will fall into the first category).


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

But yeah, men coming here and calling romance porn is proving my point for me, so thanks. This kind of behavior is why women don't trust men to write romance.

It's not fair that the bad behavior of a few besmirches an entire gender, but there's been enough bad behavior, enough times, that it has.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Crystal_ said:


> But yeah, men coming here and calling romance porn is proving my point for me, so thanks. This kind of behavior is why women don't trust men to write romance.
> 
> It's not fair that the bad behavior of a few besmirches an entire gender, but there's been enough bad behavior, enough times, that it has.


TBF I really don't think those who came here and made crass comments are out there writing romance novels.


----------



## Clay (Apr 17, 2020)

Crystal_ said:


> But yeah, men coming here and calling romance porn is proving my point for me, so thanks. This kind of behavior is why women don't trust men to write romance.


And you continue to make sexist comments against men which proves the point that was made against you. Imagine if a man was making statements like that about women just because he had a few bad experiences? That was one single person venting who compared Romance to porn. Romance is a large genre, the books he's referring to probably _were _porn. 

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with erotica. I've read tons of it. Men have every right to write within that genre as well. Stop pretending like you speak for all women or that you're an authority in the Romance genre.


----------



## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

Clay said:


> Stop pretending like you speak for all women or that you're an authority in the Romance genre.


Her being a woman and a romance author gives her some authority on women authors of romance, no? At what point is her POV going to be considered valid? Does Crystal have to clone herself and be all the women authors in romance before she can sum up what she and her colleagues experience and share with each other?

No one can speak for everyone, and everyone makes generalizations sometimes to get their point across. Get over it.


----------



## Clay (Apr 17, 2020)

Nick G said:


> At what point is her POV going to be considered valid?


She speaks for HERSELF. Except when you try to speak for her. She does not speak for all Romance authors and she certainly doesn't speak for all women. Period.


----------



## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

Who's more qualified to speak on the experience and POV of women romance authors? You?

This is pointless.


----------



## Clay (Apr 17, 2020)

We're not discussing the experiences of women. I was having a discussion with Crystal about how it's sexist for her to claim that Romance was a domain exclusively for women. Maybe you shouldn't involve yourself in discussions you don't understand.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I never said romance is exclusively for women. If that's what you got, I can't help you. Learn some reading comprehension.

Even if I had... Why do you care? How would you know? You don't read or write romance? Why does it matter to you what romance authors and readers think?


----------



## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

Clay said:


> Maybe you shouldn't involve yourself in discussions you don't understand.


The irony.


----------



## Clay (Apr 17, 2020)

Crystal_ said:


> I never said romance is exclusively for women. If that's what you got, I can't help you. Learn some reading comprehension.





Crystal_ said:


> I appreciate the interview, but I think you're readers and authors a disservice by not talking about how a male romance author is coming into a space for women...


You called Romance a space for women. Several times you mentioned it's written by women and for women. Maybe it's you who should learn some reading comprehension.

What if men started saying an office was a space for men and women should be expected to stay in the kitchen? Would that not be sexist?


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

For women isn't the same as for women exclusively.

But, yes, romance is mostly written by women for women. Men might read romances or they might not, but they're not the target reader, and authors aren't really concerned with men's takes on romance (in MF romance). They are writing under the assumption their audience is women. And readers are reading under the assumption authors with female pen names are women.

Most of the readers are women.

The genre may or may not have been designed that way, but that's how the trends went. 

This is a generalization, obviously. We're speaking in generalizations here. Generalizations are how marketing and target demographics work.

I actually do know some men who are respectful romance readers or authors who feel left out of the romance space but you will notice that none of them are here, arguing with me. They understand why women, in general, don't trust men, in general, when it comes to romance novels... or sexuality. Or a number of other things.

If you are not aware of why women, in general, are suspicious of men, in general, when it comes to dating, sex, and romance, then you should really learn about gendered violence, sexism, the patriarchy, and the general dismissive attitude towards any content aimed at women... like the guy who keeps arguing romance novels are porn.

He is making my case for me.

& so are you, with your comments about the office and the kitchen. You're betraying your intentions. Just FYI.


----------



## Clay (Apr 17, 2020)

Crystal_ said:


> I actually do know some men who are respectful romance readers or authors who feel left out of the romance space but you will notice that none of them are here, arguing with me


Very few males are going to argue with a female on this subject publicly under their author names because they're afraid of cancel culture. 



Crystal_ said:


> with your comments about the office and the kitchen. You're betraying your intentions. Just FYI.


More like pointing out your hypocrisy. I would never say or think those things because they're absurd, just like when you said men who didn't like hunger games were only bashing the book because they were sexist. Not because it's derivative, or because they hate present tense writing, or maybe they just don't like the characters . . . it has to be because they hate women (huh?). You're the sexist and it's sad you can't see it. 

I know plenty of men who write best selling romance. They write under pen names or initials for the same reason some women write under pen names in certain genre's. If that makes you or anyone else feel uncomfortable, too bad.


----------



## fembot (Mar 20, 2021)

Clay said:


> Very few males are going to argue with a female on this subject publicly under their author names because they're afraid of cancel culture.


Or because they aren't foolish enough to be contrarian about something they don't understand for attention.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

deleted


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I am sure people out there dislike THG for non sexist reasons, but I'm yet to read any criticism of the series that isn't tinged with sexism.

Except the criticism that's complaining THG doesn't have enough secondary female characters. Which is fair but not really the point of the series.

I don't take the opinions of people who dismiss present tense seriously. It's fine to not prefer it but authors shouldn't be dismissing tenses or POVs.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Clay said:


> Personally, I don't see anything wrong with erotica. I've read tons of it. Men have every right to write within that genre as well. Stop pretending like you speak for all women or that you're an authority in the Romance genre.


I don't think anyone was claiming that men shouldn't be allowed to write romance (or erotica, either). The problem isn't men writing romance. It's not even men writing romance with female pen names. The problem is men taking on the persona of that female author and interacting with their fans as a woman. I mean, it's true enough that there's nothing stopping a man from doing that, but women tend to feel betrayed by that kind of behavior, and there's nothing stopping them from outing that author for his lousy behavior, either.

There was a guy a couple of years ago who came on here acting all proud of himself for masquerading as a woman so he could mine info for his romance. He didn't seem to get why women were upset about the fact that he would pretend to be a woman and ask them all kinds of personal questions, even though it was clear that he knew those same women wouldn't have answered his questions if he'd asked them as himself. That kind of behavior can tend to make women leery, and unfortunately it tends to tar a lot of the male romance writers with the same brush, even though they don't all deserve it.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

ShayneRutherford said:


> There was a guy a couple of years ago who came on here acting all proud of himself for masquerading as a woman so he could mine info for his romance. He didn't seem to get why women were upset about the fact that he would pretend to be a woman and ask them all kinds of personal questions, even though it was clear that he knew those same women wouldn't have answered his questions if he'd asked them as himself. That kind of behavior can tend to make women leery, and unfortunately it tends to tar a lot of the male romance writers with the same brush, even though they don't all deserve it.


What I don't get is why it's_ not_ weird when a female author is asking personal questions of readers? It's unprofessional regardless. Pretending to be a woman just adds an extra layer. It seems like a lot of writers and readers in that community need to learn boundaries.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> What I don't get is why it's_ not_ weird when a female author is asking personal questions of readers? It's unprofessional regardless. Pretending to be a woman just adds an extra layer. It seems like a lot of writers and readers in that community need to learn boundaries.


The thing is, some romance authors have fan groups, and the members can grow really close. The authors aren't mining their group for info, they're just engaging in girl talk with friends.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

ShayneRutherford said:


> The thing is, some romance authors have fan groups, and the members can grow really close. The authors aren't mining their group for info, they're just engaging in girl talk with friends.


If they were truly close like girlfriends wouldn't they have realized something was suspicious long before they bared their lives to the guy? It just doesn't really add up. I think people need to realize when they give personal details to someone they don't really know that they're taking a risk and that person may or may not be who they think. It's not like there haven't been plenty of female authors behaving badly too. A woman could just as easily pretend to be your friend and use what you say for monetary gain.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> If they were truly close like girlfriends wouldn't they have realized something was suspicious long before they bared their lives to the guy? It just doesn't really add up. I think people need to realize when they give personal details to someone they don't really know that they're taking a risk and that person may or may not be who they think. It's not like there haven't been plenty of female authors behaving badly too. A woman could just as easily pretend to be your friend and use what you say for monetary gain.


I think authors tend to get the benefit of the doubt quite a bit, even though there are times they really shouldn't. Fans feel like they know the author, so they give them more trust than they've actually earned. And you're right, a woman could absolutely do the same thing. But it just seems a lot more predatory when it's a dude doing it in a genre so strongly targeted at women. Or at least, it does to me.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

How original. Guys (and, perhaps, some women) talking smack about romance. Gee, that’s néw.

For the record, Crystal is most certainly an authority in the romance genre. She’s sure as heck been massively successful in it. As somebody who’s been in this genre for ten years, has written 35 books, and has made millions at this deal without having half her knowledge of what’s going on—I’d say she is probably more up to date in her understanding of current trends in this genre than almost anyone I know. And again for the record and for what it’s worth, I agree with everything she’s said here. (Also per the title of the thread, 100k a year in romance, especially if a lot of that is ad spend, is not enough to make somebody any kind or whale. Try 1 million a year.)

I almost never look at this site anymore, but I clicked on it tonight for some reason, and holy ****show, Batman. Certain words aren’t supposed to be used here, but If you’re under a bridge, you might be just stirring the pot down there. Calling romance the same thing as PornHub—yeah, miss us with that. I think I’ll skip on over to somebody’s sci fi thread and weigh in about how all those authors are just frustrated little boys daydreaming about rocket ships and guns going pew pew.

Or you know what, I won’t. I’ll assume those authors respect their genre and their readers,and that they understand both better than I ever could. And I’ll show them some respect of my own.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Questioning a double standard and the appearance of sexism isn't talking smack. If you went to sci fi thread and said women should GTFO out of the genre and stop using male/neutral pen names, I'm sure more than a few would take issue.


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> How original. Guys (and, perhaps, some women) talking smack about romance. Gee, that’s néw.
> 
> (SNIP)
> 
> Or you know what, I won’t. I’ll assume those authors respect their genre and their readers,and that they understand both better than I ever could. And I’ll show them some respect of my own.


Understood. Romance gets an unnecessary bad rap. It's not fair, and it's not right.

And if romance authors don't like seeing their own genre pigeonholed, imagine what some erotica authors here must feel about their own genre being pigeonholed and denigrated as nothing but 'porn', like it's trash writing with no real plot and shallow, cardboard characters that stick to the tropes so tightly it's like they're glued to the cardboard. That gets old, too.

I have never understood the need to trash any genre. I've written in several, and it's always hard work no matter which genre one writes in.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Rosalind has sold lots of books.

People can make millions without having especially high ranks on Amazon US.

I've only hit the top 100 with BookBubs this year & my two releases have underperformed. I have had a bunch of Prime Reads cycles, so I've had some inflated ranks, but I haven't had any releases perform at top author level.

Still gonna gross mid to high six-figures this year.

I've had lots of Prime Reads cycles where the book made exactly the same amount, or less, once it was in Prime Reads, but the rank jumped from 2k to 200 or 5k to 500 or whatever.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Even if that's true... so what? She still made millions in the past.

And 20-30 books in the 40k-100k range is enough for a full-time income for lots of people, especially if they have audio, translations, and sales in other English speaking regions.


----------



## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

It's amazing how often authors are evaluated based on their amazon rankings without regard to those other publishing opportunities. Jeff Bezos managed to convince a lot of folks that the kindle store is the be-all and end-all of publishing.


----------



## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

writer4all said:


> Her current best rank in the Kindle store is 40,000.
> 
> She’s a has-been at best now.


I look forward to the day I'm a has-been at best, where a book that's a decade old (and probably been promo'd to death at this point) and a book on pre-order for a September release are ranking 40k on Amazon.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

... and now I'm in an ABs black hole & I'm upset people are writing books set in my home county! How could they?!?! Amazon... Don't do it. Beach romances don't sell for most. I don't know how Rosalind does it, actually. I have to downplay the beach in all my socal set books. Surfers aren't a hot archetype. Which I understand. They're too chill & go with the flow. Not an attractive trait in a partner IMO. I want someone capable of planning. And, not that anyone here actually cares about why women read romance, but the reason why "bossy" or "alpha" or "controlling" heroes are popular is that women are doing most of the mental and emotional labor in their personal lives. They're the ones organizing the kids, planning the menu, keeping track of the schedule. A guy who can take over that work is an appealing escape.

(And all genre fiction is escapist. Doesn't mean it's not about important things. Doesn't mean it's not well written, nuanced, realistic, or thematically rich. Different people escape in different ways. I can't escape in a book that feels falsely positive. Other people can't escape in a book that feels "too real." Other people are "angst whores" and love books where everyone is miserable 24/7 for no apparent reason. I always want to send those MCs an Rx and a referral to a therapist. They don't work for me, but they're very popular).

Rosalind's books are mostly 4.99-5.99+ (and rather long) so she's making more per sale than lots of people at the same ranks.

At 5.99, she needs to sell 65 books a day to make six-figures. If she's averaging 2-3 copies a book/day (and she's probably averaging higher at those ranks, with other regions, but for the sake of argument), she's making six-figures. And that's not even including the preorders on the new book.

Not that it matters. She would still have experience and wisdom if her books weren't selling today. But she is laughing all the way to the bank.


----------



## Anna Rose (Jan 13, 2019)

Crystal_ said:


> *Romance books are about sex*. Readers absolutely do bring up sex with authors, and with each other. It's part of the subject matter of the book. I've had a number of readers write me to tell me I improved their sex lives.


Snippet...and bold my own.

Just wanted to say that not ALL Romance books are about sex. There are a lot of heat levels! Some are Clean & Wholesome, some are Sweet Romance, some may NOT contain any sex on the page or even implied. Romance by definition means:

a feeling of excitement and mystery associated with love.
"in search of romance"
a quality or feeling of mystery, excitement, and remoteness from everyday life.
"the beauty and romance of the night"
synonyms:
mystery · glamour · excitement · colourfulness · color · exoticism · mystique · appeal · allure · fascination · charm
a medieval tale dealing with a hero of chivalry, of the kind common in the Romance languages.
"the Arthurian romances"
a work of fiction dealing with events remote from real life, especially one of a kind popular in the 16th and 17th centuries.
"Elizabethan pastoral romances"

(romance defined - Bing)


----------



## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

Anna Rose said:


> Snippet...and bold my own.
> 
> Just wanted to say that not ALL Romance books are about sex. There are a lot of heat levels! Some are Clean & Wholesome, some are Sweet Romance, some may NOT contain any sex on the page or even implied. Romance by definition means:
> 
> ...


That Bing definition reads like a historical document.

You're correct, the clean and wholesome niche does exist, but most romance books have sex even when they're sweet in tone. It doesn't mean they're only about sex, but relationships and sex go together for most people.


----------



## Anna Rose (Jan 13, 2019)

Nick G said:


> That Bing definition reads like a historical document.
> 
> You're correct, the clean and wholesome niche does exist, but most romance books have sex even when they're sweet in tone. It doesn't mean they're only about sex, but relationships and sex go together for most people.


True, but clean romance readers don't usually discuss their sex lives online. Also, sweet romance has been stretched to include books that might not have been considered sweet a few years ago. Romance is a huge genre and romance can be a subplot in many genres, so heat levels can impact a lot of books. 

While I have heard of some authors misrepresenting themselves in online discussions (as Crystal pointed out) I don't think most authors are doing anything other than trying to introduce readers to their books. Whether we use initials, a pen name, or our own...I don't think it matters what gender we are or what genre we write.


----------



## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

Anna Rose said:


> True, but clean romance readers don't usually discuss their sex lives online. Also, sweet romance has been stretched to include books that might not have been considered sweet a few years ago. Romance is a huge genre and romance can be a subplot in many genres, so heat levels can impact a lot of books.
> 
> While I have heard of some authors misrepresenting themselves in online discussions (as Crystal pointed out) I don't think most authors are doing anything other than trying to introduce readers to their books. Whether we use initials, a pen name, or our own...I don't think it matters what gender we are or what genre we write.


Fair enough! It's true that sometimes a few bad actors can leave a bad impression that others have to unfairly deal with. We've seen that with indie authors in general being equated with scammers in the past.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm offering a vendor my opinion on what price points would make them more money. It's not about what I can afford. I could drop $400 on a plot, no problem. I could drop $4k on ten plots right now, if I wanted, but I won't, because I won't get 4k of value from them. I don't even use my own plots. I'd buy one at $50, more out of curiosity than anything, but I wouldn't get value out of a higher price point.

I'm speaking on behalf of authors who would get value out of the plots who don't have $400 to spend. I think setting a price that your primary demographic can afford is good business... but it's just my opinion, like I said, a number of times. Most new authors don't have $400. That's just the way it is. Doesn't really matter what anyone thinks about what things should cost.

Your argument isn't very good though... cause if I'm spending a ton of money on ads (which I am; I say that all the time), why would I care about spending $400 on a resource? I will admit, I could be more careful with certain resources (that's why I'm banned from buying custom photos), but I'm pretty good at only spending money if I believe I'll get that value.

I'm going to drop 50k+ on translations & audio this year, on top of what I spend on ads.

I'm not going to announce my take home to the entire world, but I have brought home six figures since 2016, and I will do it again this year. I wasn't claiming I'd sold millions anyway. I was agreeing Rosalind has sold millions. (And she said sold millions, not took home millions, though I would guess she has taken home millions, over the many years she's been published. I have sold millions of dollars of revenue as well & the more specific details are none of your business).



_Edited out quotation of and response to a now-deleted post. - Becca_


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Do you know how businesses work? The whole idea is making more money than you spend. If I was going to buy a plot, of course I would want to make money off it. And I'd want it to be worth more than what I paid. Otherwise, it would be a net loss.

That is how running a business works.

You wouldn't buy coffee for $1 and sell it to customers for .50. You'd sell it for $2-4 dollars, so you'd make a profit.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Nick doesn't have a link to a website so I don't know what you're basing these assumptions on.

I don't know any romance authors or readers who think it's okay for women to pose as gay men in MM.

Montlake drops lots of six and even seven figure authors. You wish you were half the "has been" Rosalind is.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

If she is such a has-been compared to you, how much did you make last year?


----------



## Indy Strange (Aug 29, 2019)

All I want to do is talk about self-publishing. This site gets a little traction, and now it's constant drama. _Siiiiiiiiigggghhhh_


----------



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Darryl Hughes said:


> OH-MY-GOD!!! And I guess "cis-female" writers like JK Rowling and Nora Roberts who write mysteries under pen names to hide the fact that they're female from the mainly male audience for that genre are okay in your book?
> 
> Dee


Confused here; Nora is a woman's name so why is she a female pretending to be something other?


Clay said:


> Romance is NOT exclusively a space for women. Men are free to read and write romance if they wish.


Anyone is free to write anything; don't really get the point.


Crystal_ said:


> Not exclusively, no, but there's a huge history of people denigrating romance because it's for women. Men are welcome to read romance, but MF romance is mostly written by women, for women. A lot of romance spaces are assumed to be all women. Again, complicated, but what's not complicated is the history of men coming into romance and behaving badly. Not all male romance authors, but enough that women are skeptical.


I once caused uproar in a book shop by demanding that they change the category label on the romance books. It was labelled 'women's interest' - I was livid.


Darryl Hughes said:


> I just watched "Naughty Books" on Hulu about the erotic romance genre, it's authors, and fans, and every one of the authors writing romance uses a pen name. So how would you actually know which author was man and which was female?
> 
> Dee


If a so-called romance has details bits, I can easily tell if it's written by a man. They have totally different ideas as to what a woman finds pleasing to the actual fact of the matter.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Doglover said:


> Confused here; Nora is a woman's name so why is she a female pretending to be something other?


Nora writes crime books as JD Robb.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

ShayneRutherford said:


> Nora writes crime books as JD Robb.


Thank you. And JK Rowling writes her own mystery/crime novels under a man's name as well.

Dee


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

This thread is such a wild ride it should be installed at Schlitterbahn.


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

travelinged said:


> It's amazing how often authors are evaluated based on their amazon rankings without regard to those other publishing opportunities. Jeff Bezos managed to convince a lot of folks that the kindle store is the be-all and end-all of publishing.


Although Amazon rankings may not really be an accurate indicator of success, the Zon rank numbers are the only common data we have to compare success with.


----------



## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

I


jb1111 said:


> Although Amazon rankings may not really be an accurate indicator of success, the Zon rank numbers are the only common data we have to compare success with.


I know. However, #1 comparisons are odious; and #2, Amazon rankings only show things to do with Amazon. All that is compared is how well an author sells books there. Some amazing authors make around 40% of their sales wide, more with audio books and so on. One example: Book Sales Revenue Breakdown By Platform, Format, Country, and More 2021

And that doesn't include those of use who also write and sell to magazines, do ghost writing, and other things that are all factors in whether or not we make a living. In the other direction, a trad author's sales ranking tells you nothing about their income, only how well their publisher is doing with those books. 

So, the knee jerk reaction of looking up an author on Amazon is a distortion. 

Having said that, it is useful to compare a book's ranking on Amazon. I write Caribbean Thrillers and clearly if you take any of my books in that genre and compare it to one of Wayne Stinnett's (as an example) it's easy to see that he is a big gun and I'm not. Therefore I look to what he does in terms of marketing, pricing, all those things... for that kind of book. That comparison is useful, not because I compare myself to him--I doubt we have the same goals for our work--but because clearly he knows things I can learn. But there are writers with low rankings I can learn from as well.


----------



## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Amazon ranking, when I was purely an indie, mattered a great deal. As a hybrid, not that much. Amazon is still the best game in town for indies, so doing well on Amazon is a pretty good measure of indie income. But when you add audiobooks, traditional pub royalties and advances, appearances, paid blogs and articles, into the equation, looking at a ranking becomes meaningless.
It's all a matter of scale and perspective. I do author appearances at cons with an organization called The Bard's Tower. Some of the writers are very well known. But from the Amazon ranking, you couldn't tell. Unless of course, you _really _looked and saw past the numbers to their body of work.
Residual passive income is another factor. I still make okay money off the first series I wrote 12 years ago. Not boatloads. But consider I have 20 novels out. It adds up. A few thousand here. A few thousand there. Then windfalls of advance money from time to time. And you have my income. There is no way you could calculate what I make from looking at my amazon page.


----------



## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Finn said:


> Robert Galbraith.
> 
> Who had this in “his” bio: “a former plainclothes Royal Military Police investigator who had left in 2003 to work in the civilian security industry.”


Fun fact: She wrote Harry Potter using the ambiguous name J.K. Rowling fearing boys wouldn't want to read a book written by a woman.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Wait, so I had to do community service for impersonating the police in high school but JK Rowling can put that in her pen name bio?


----------



## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Finn said:


> I think it was her publisher that wanted her to use initials for that reason. The rest is history as they say!


Not sure. You're probably right. 
It's odd to imagine it as consideration in today's climate with midgrade fantasy. With romance, a genre almost entirely dominated by women, or science fiction, men, I can imagine thinking it's important. After all, you're trying to sell books. And you have to account for your audience. Wishing for women to see a man's name on a romance novel and not care won't make it a reality. You can guilt them into it for a while; make it PC to buy certain books so people are forced to virtue signal by claiming they like something they don't. But in the end, readers stick with what they like, written by who they like. It's not fair to writers and readers miss out. But that's just how people are. Things do change. But they change gradually. Never at the pace we think it should.


----------



## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> Wait, so I had to do community service for impersonating the police in high school but JK Rowling can put that in her pen name bio?


I think it's called stolen valor here in the US, it's a kind of fraud. I don't know if it's that there weren't laws against it in Scotland, or if she's just above the law because of her wealth.

JK Rowling and JD Robb are bad examples, though, for a counter argument to Crystal's. They're big, everyone knows who they are, and even if they didn't for a while their interaction with the public is limited.

I get that people read Crystal's words differently, but what I heard is: some men have come into the romance space with little respect for their fellow authors, the audience, and respectful boundaries and have performed as women and behaved badly, so men should be thoughtful about how they go about bypassing reader bias with gender flipped names or personas.

Other people seemed to hear: Women can use gender neutral or flipped names in any situation and in any way and men can't because men bad.

We all come at this from different POVs and filters but we can at least agree being thoughtful about our choices and how we interact with readers isn't a bad thing, right?


----------



## writerrun (Jul 8, 2021)

Bite the Dusty said:


> I get that people read Crystal's words differently, but what I heard is: some men have come into the romance space with little respect for their fellow authors, the audience, and respectful boundaries and have performed as women and behaved badly, so men should be thoughtful about how they go about bypassing reader bias with gender flipped names or personas.
> 
> Other people seemed to hear: Women can use gender neutral or flipped names in any situation and in any way and men can't because men bad.
> 
> We all come at this from different POVs and filters but we can at least agree being thoughtful about our choices and how we interact with readers isn't a bad thing, right?


The OP posted an interview with a male romance writer. This was Crystal’s comment:



Crystal_ said:


> I appreciate the interview, but I think you're readers and authors a disservice by not talking about how a male romance author is coming into a space for women... it's complicated--the sexual politics of romance novels are very complicated--*but there's a big history of male romance authors trashing readers behind their backs or manipulating them.*


There’s a ”big history“ of this kind of behavior? So most male romance writers are bad apples, or at least a large number of them? Does Crystal have any proof of this? I’ve only seen one name come up as an example of a bad character, but that guy was a known scammer.

Is it worse when a male romance writer trashes readers versus a female writer? Crystal has done her fair share of trashing both the genre and its readers. She often talks about how her least favorite books to write seem to do best for her. I guess this is okay because she’s female? If she was male, her having disdain for certain tropes popular with readers would be a crime against humanity?

Romance is a ”space for women”? Men don’t have romantic feelings or partners? It’s such an alien thing for a man to experience? Never mind that in real life it’s the males in the relationship that are usually the romantic ones.

So no, I don’t think anyone is misreading Crystal’s words. She’s only made her prejudices clearer as this thread went on. You’re giving her too much credit with your softball reading of her problematic words.

If she wanted to discuss problematic male romance writers, it would have been better to start her own thread on the topic instead of derailing this one. And if she has any proof that most male romance writers are engaging in those practices, all the better.

If she had just said that “some” male romance writers were like this there wouldn’t have been any drama. It’s her implication that most of them are like this that’s problematic.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

writerrun said:


> Is it worse when a male romance writer trashes readers versus a female writer? Crystal has done her fair share of trashing both the genre and its readers. She often talks about how her least favorite books to write seem to do best for her. I guess this is okay because she’s female? If she was male, her having disdain for certain tropes popular with readers would be a crime against humanity?


Out of all the books you've written, do you not have some that you prefer and some that you enjoyed writing less? She's not trashing a genre, she's saying - I assume - that her favorite tropes are not the same as her readers' favorite tropes.




writerrun said:


> Romance is a ”space for women”? Men don’t have romantic feelings or partners? It’s such an alien thing for a man to experience? Never mind that in real life it’s the males in the relationship that are usually the romantic ones.



Of course men have romantic feelings and partners. And can men read romances? Absolutely. Apparently 16% of romance readers are men. But romances are not written for men. They are written for and targeted at women.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

Bite the Dusty said:


> JK Rowling and JD Robb are bad examples, though, for a counter argument to Crystal's. They're big, everyone knows who they are, and even if they didn't for a while their interaction with the public is limited.


Everyone knows who they are NOW would be the point. But at the time they were just female writers writing under pen names as a form of deception, hiding the fact that they are women to entice an audience that wouldn't normally buy from a woman to buy their books exactly the same thing Crystal is accusing this male author of doing. No difference. At all.

Oh, and lets not forget that JK Rowlings god awful mysteries didn't sell until it was revealed that she was the writer, just like her first post Potter book.

But I guess because they're women they get a pass for their "deception". Gimme a break.

Dee


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

ShayneRutherford said:


> Of course men have romantic feelings and partners. And can men read romances? Absolutely. Apparently 16% of romance readers are men. But romances are not written for men. They are written for and targeted at women.


BS! Romances are written for people who want to read them--Male or Female! You don't own the genre because you have a vagina. But that seems to be the thinking. That men reading or writing romance/chick porn are somehow trespassing on something that's yours. Gimme a break.

Dee


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Darryl Hughes said:


> BS! Romances are written for people who want to read them--Male or Female! You don't own the genre because you have a vagina. But that seems to be the thinking. That men reading or writing romance/chick porn are somehow trespassing on something that's yours. Gimme a break.
> 
> Dee


Romances can be read by anyone who wants to read them. But they are targeted at women. Just the same as men's action books are targeted at men. Can they be read by anyone? Sure. But they are written with a target audience in mind.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Darryl Hughes said:


> Everyone knows who they are NOW would be the point. But at the time they were just female writers writing under pen names as a form of deception, hiding the fact that they are women to entice an audience that wouldn't normally buy from a woman to buy their books exactly the same thing Crystal is accusing this male author of doing. No difference. At all.
> 
> Oh, and lets not forget that JK Rowlings god awful mysteries didn't sell until it was revealed that she was the writer, just like her first post Potter book.
> 
> ...


Actually, that's not what Crystal is accusing male authors of doing. No one is saying men can't write romance under a gender neutral pen name. The issue is with the fact that those men actually created a female persona and went around interacting with female fans, talking about things with them that they never would have discussed with a male author.


----------



## writerrun (Jul 8, 2021)

ShayneRutherford said:


> Out of all the books you've written, do you not have some that you prefer and some that you enjoyed writing less? She's not trashing a genre, she's saying - I assume - that her favorite tropes are not the same as her readers' favorite tropes.


Certainly. But she’s talked about trying to “elevate” the genre and to change the reader tastes to conform more to what she likes to write. All this implying that romance readers are too low brow for her. If that’s not insulting your audience, I don’t know what is.



ShayneRutherford said:


> Of course men have romantic feelings and partners. And can men read romances? Absolutely. Apparently 16% of romance readers are men. But romances are not written for men. They are written for and targeted at women.





ShayneRutherford said:


> Romances can be read by anyone who wants to read them. But they are targeted at women. Just the same as men's action books are targeted at men. Can they be read by anyone? Sure. But they are written with a target audience in mind.


And? Just because a certain genre is mainly targeted toward a specific audience, doesn’t mean the author has to be part of the target audience to write that genre. Does a romance writer have to be a romance reader? No. Crystal is proof of that. 



ShayneRutherford said:


> Actually, that's not what Crystal is accusing male authors of doing. No one is saying men can't write romance under a gender neutral pen name. The issue is with the fact that those men actually created a female persona and went around interacting with female fans, talking about things with them that they never would have discussed with a male author.


Men can write under female pen names and gender neutral names.

Women can write under male pen names and gender neutral names.

This practice is as old as writing itself. A few people on the internet will not change that.

As for the issue of men interacting inappropriately with their female fans while using a female pen name, I think this problem is more than a bit blown out of proportion. One guy doing it is not proof of a systematic problem.


----------



## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

I'm skipping the parts Shayne addressed because I agree with what she wrote.



writerrun said:


> There’s a ”big history“ of this kind of behavior? So most male romance writers are bad apples, or at least a large number of them? Does Crystal have any proof of this? I’ve only seen one name come up as an example of a bad character, but that guy was a known scammer.


That's putting words in her mouth. Your assumptions could technically be right, but it's not what she said and I don't believe that's what she meant.



writerrun said:


> If she wanted to discuss problematic male romance writers, it would have been better to start her own thread on the topic instead of derailing this one. And if she has any proof that most male romance writers are engaging in those practices, all the better.
> 
> If she had just said that “some” male romance writers were like this there wouldn’t have been any drama. It’s her implication that most of them are like this that’s problematic.


This feels like moving the goalpost.

If it were in another thread...
If it were worded perfectly...
If she had used the word "some" so there was no room to assume in either direction...
If she had proof...

The proof is all over the internet. Romancelandia is not a small community like it is here on kboards. There's whole YouTube channels dedicated to detailing all the drama. Anyway, no one else is expected to be a walking news article with citations, and at the end of the day Crystal's just one person with opinions. She isn't the master of the universe and she doesn't control what anyone else does, so the vitriolic responses are what seem very out of proportion to me.

I just want to discuss interesting author topics, but without the mods being fully on top of the writers' cafe civility seems less probable.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

writerrun said:


> Certainly. But she’s talked about trying to “elevate” the genre and to change the reader tastes to conform more to what she likes to write. All this implying that romance readers are too low brow for her. If that’s not insulting your audience, I don’t know what is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HOLY GOD! Thank you so very much. That was the whole damn point from the beginning.

Dee


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

writerrun said:


> Certainly. But she’s talked about trying to “elevate” the genre and to change the reader tastes to conform more to what she likes to write. All this implying that romance readers are too low brow for her. If that’s not insulting your audience, I don’t know what is.


Are you comparing insulting one's audience to a dude pretending to be a woman so that he can mine info for his fiction? Because either you're not, in which case this feels like nothing more than a shot at Crystal, or you are, in which case you clearly don't understand the problem.

Also, I can't remember for sure, but I seem to think her comment about elevating romance was likely in response to people comparing it to pornography. I mean, if your genre of choice was constantly being compared to porn, how would you feel?




writerrun said:


> And? Just because a certain genre is mainly targeted toward a specific audience, doesn’t mean the author has to be part of the target audience to write that genre. Does a romance writer have to be a romance reader? No. Crystal is proof of that.


No, the author doesn't have to be part of the target audience to write a specific genre. But if they're not part of the target audience and need to conduct research, they shouldn't be lying to their fans and misrepresenting themselves to do it.




writerrun said:


> Men can write under female pen names and gender neutral names.
> 
> Women can write under male pen names and gender neutral names.
> 
> ...


Again, no one said they couldn't choose whatever pen name they like. 

Just because you think it's blown out of proportion doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Nor does it mean that women don't have a right to be peeved about it when it does happen.


----------



## writerrun (Jul 8, 2021)

ShayneRutherford said:


> Are you comparing insulting one's audience to a dude pretending to be a woman so that he can mine info for his fiction? Because either you're not, in which case this feels like nothing more than a shot at Crystal, or you are, in which case you clearly don't understand the problem.


I’m obviously not. Crystal said “*trashing readers behind their backs* or manipulating them.” There are two issues at play here. I just find it interesting that Crystal thinks trashing readers behind their backs is such a big deal since she’s done the same.



ShayneRutherford said:


> No, the author doesn't have to be part of the target audience to write a specific genre. But if they're not part of the target audience and need to conduct research, they shouldn't be lying to their fans and misrepresenting themselves to do it.


I have no idea what conducting research into a genre has to do with lying to people. Most writers just read a lot in the genre they want to write.



ShayneRutherford said:


> Again, no one said they couldn't choose whatever pen name they like.


That’s exactly what you and multiple others have said outright. You said male romance authors should use gender neutral names. Multiple people have said that male authors should never use female pen names.



ShayneRutherford said:


> Just because you think it's blown out of proportion doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Nor does it mean that women don't have a right to be peeved about it when it does happen.


If it’s such a problem, concerned parties can start their own thread and show us examples of that kind of behavior. There was no good reason to derail this thread with this topic.


----------



## writerrun (Jul 8, 2021)

KinFireQueen said:


> Speaking for myself as everyone on this thread should be, I could not care less if men write romance under female or gender-neutral names. *They do so because they don't want to be dismissed outright by readers who read a male name and keep scrolling.* The real issue is that we do this at all. If they didn't have to worry about that prejudice, this would be a non-issue.


Exactly. It’s quite ridiculous that a few people have said that male romance authors should publish under male names even if it hurts them financially. This is a business, not a charity.

But interestingly enough, the one problematic author that was actually named did publish under a male pen name and presented as a male on social media. The readers that shared personal info with him knew he was a man from the beginning.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

writerrun said:


> I have no idea what conducting research into a genre has to do with lying to people. Most writers just read a lot in the genre they want to write.


Because the men who were pretending to be women and interacting with their fans as women were asking them things about sex, among other things. So either they were doing research for their books, or they were asking for other, more unsavory, purposes. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt in my assumption that they were doing research. But maybe I was over-estimating them.




writerrun said:


> That’s exactly what you and multiple others have said outright. You said male romance authors should use gender neutral names. Multiple people have said that male authors should never use female pen names.


Well, that is personally how I feel about both genders. Using gender-neutral names or initials feels more honest than choosing an opposite-gender name and pretending to be that gender in one's profile and such. I feel that way about men and women.




writerrun said:


> If it’s such a problem, concerned parties can start their own thread and show us examples of that kind of behavior. There was no good reason to derail this thread with this topic.


Lots of posts get derailed here. It's par for the course.


----------



## jaglionpress (Oct 5, 2016)

I liked the original interview. It describes a business model which was a thing when I first started self-publishing 5 years ago, and it's useful to know that this particular approach can still work, even if I can't work like that myself.


----------



## writerrun (Jul 8, 2021)

ShayneRutherford said:


> *Because the men who were pretending to be women and interacting with their fans as women were asking them things about sex, among other things.* So either they were doing research for their books, or they were asking for other, more unsavory, purposes. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt in my assumption that they were doing research. But maybe I was over-estimating them.


Who are they? Where are they? The only name I’ve seen thrown around was this guy:



writerrun said:


> But interestingly enough, the one problematic author that was actually named did publish under a male pen name and presented as a male on social media. The readers that shared personal info with him knew he was a man from the beginning.


And he marketed himself as “a bad boy who writes bad boy romance.”


----------



## writerrun (Jul 8, 2021)

ShayneRutherford said:


> Lots of posts get derailed here. It's par for the course.


The problem is that it got derailed from the get-go, from the first reply.

I actually found the interview inspiring. The author’s work ethic is amazing. Is anybody talking about that? No, because we’re too busy arguing about things that shouldn’t even be talked about in this thread.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

writerrun said:


> The problem is that it got derailed from the get-go, from the first reply.
> 
> I actually found the interview inspiring. The author’s work ethic is amazing. Is anybody talking about that? No, because we’re too busy arguing about things that shouldn’t even be talked about in this thread.


And yet, if people had ignored that comment, or made an effort to get back on topic, things could have been fixed on page 1. A derail that lasts seven pages takes a lot more than just one person to make it happen.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

writerrun said:


> I’m obviously not. Crystal said “*trashing readers behind their backs* or manipulating them.” There are two issues at play here. I just find it interesting that Crystal thinks trashing readers behind their backs is such a big deal since she’s done the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PREACH!!!

Dee


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

ShayneRutherford said:


> And yet, if people had ignored that comment, or made an effort to get back on topic, things could have been fixed on page 1. A derail that lasts seven pages takes a lot more than just one person to make it happen.


Crystal's comment was an unnecessary, out of nowhere, self serving "man bad" comment that had absolutely nothing to do with the interview or anything suggested in the interview that could not be ignored. And seven pages later the "man bad" hasn't stopped. But you're welcomed to be the first.

Dee


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Darryl Hughes said:


> Crystal's comment was an unnecessary, out of nowhere, self serving "man bad" comment that had absoltuely nothing to do with the interview or anything suggested in the interview that could not be ignored. And seven pages later the "man bad" hasn't stopped.


I never said "man bad". I don't think all men are bad. Acknowledging that there are some bad actors out there doesn't mean I think all men are bad. 




Darryl Hughes said:


> But you're welcomed to be the first.


So are you.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

ShayneRutherford said:


> So are you.


Pointing out the fact that women authors have done the exact same thing that this guy in the interview did and is being wrongly accused of having done something wrong for doing is in no way, shape, or form "women bad". At F-ing all.

Dee


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Darryl Hughes said:


> Pointing out the fact that women authors have done the exact same thing that this guy in the interview did and is being wrongly accused of having done something wrong for doing is in no way, shape, or form "women bad". At F-ing all.
> 
> Dee


You misread my comment. You said I was welcome to be first. My reply was to indicate that you were also welcome to be first.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

ShayneRutherford said:


> You misread my comment. You said I was welcome to be first. My reply was to indicate that you were also welcome to be first.


No, I didn't. Point to a single post where I said or implied "women bad" as opposed to pointing out hypocrisy and examples where female authors have done the exact same thing historically (using a pen name to appeal to a particular audience) that the guy in the interview did and is being sh*t on by posters like Crystal, etc. Point a A SINGLE "women bad" post of mine. Take your time, I'll wait.

Dee


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Darryl Hughes said:


> No, I didn't. Point to a single post where I said or implied "women bad" as opposed to pointing out hypocrisy and examples where female authors have done the exact same thing historically (using a pen name to appeal to a particular audience) that the guy in the interview did and is being sh*t on by posters like Crystal, etc. Point a A SINGLE "women bad" post of mine. Take your time, I'll wait.
> 
> Dee


My bad. My attention was divided and I mistook your comment about being first to be an invitation to get the thread back on track, which was why you I said that you could also be first. And you can. If you want the thread back on track, you could do something to try to get it back on track. Instead of engaging with the off-track comments you could try to get the original conversation going.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

ShayneRutherford said:


> My bad. My attention was divided and I mistook your comment about being first to be an invitation to get the thread back on track, which was why you I said that you could also be first. And you can. If you want the thread back on track, you could do something to try to get it back on track. Instead of engaging with the off-track comments you could try to get the original conversation going.


Getting this thread back on track is E-A-S-Y. You and others like you can stop talking crap about men who use pen names to garner success in a specific genre which might not welcome them under there own name since, as it has been pointing out over and over again, female authors do it all the time. That's what I and the other guys (most of the other guys I should say) object to, if I can be so bold as to speak for them.

And STOP with the "male authors have used pen names to get over on their female audiences before, so..." crap that was hung around the neck of the guy in the interview. Just because other male authors may have done it in the past doesn't mean the guy in the interview has done himself. Ever. And to suggest otherwise, which Crystal did with her very first post, is assuming him guilty of something that you don't know if he's ever done simply because he has a penis.

Like I said, you first.

Dee


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Bite the Dusty said:


> I get that people read Crystal's words differently, but what I heard is: some men have come into the romance space with little respect for their fellow authors, the audience, and respectful boundaries and have performed as women and behaved badly, so men should be thoughtful about how they go about bypassing reader bias with gender flipped names or personas.
> 
> Other people seemed to hear: Women can use gender neutral or flipped names in any situation and in any way and men can't because men bad.
> 
> We all come at this from different POVs and filters but we can at least agree being thoughtful about our choices and how we interact with readers isn't a bad thing, right?


Agreed.

I also think there is one additional factor that hasn't really been approached here -- the tendency for the often cutthroat nature of indie publishing (especially in some genres) to lead some unscrupulous people to bad behaviors like you mentioned.


----------



## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Darryl Hughes said:


> Everyone knows who they are NOW would be the point. But at the time they were just female writers writing under pen names as a form of deception, hiding the fact that they are women to entice an audience that wouldn't normally buy from a woman to buy their books exactly the same thing Crystal is accusing this male author of doing. No difference. At all.
> 
> Oh, and lets not forget that JK Rowlings god awful mysteries didn't sell until it was revealed that she was the writer, just like her first post Potter book.
> 
> ...


So does your argument (assuming you aren't being sarcastic) George Sand was a fraud, and not just a great writer? Women had trouble being taken seriously, so she used a man's name. Not so much deception, as trying to get judged fairly. And that's just one example. Women war correspondents had similar issues and many used initials to be able to work. People like Martha Gellhorne were exceptions.


----------



## markpauloleksiw (Jan 15, 2019)

Sadly, there are males who take on "female" personas in the romance market..a few were tied into the "book stuffing" mess and finding ways to manipulate Kindle unlimited.

I left KU because I have a suspicion it is still not a level playing field and some authors are manipulating the reads at the expense of others....just my hunch. To each their own.


----------



## Darryl Hughes (Nov 17, 2014)

travelinged said:


> Not so much deception, as trying to get judged fairly.


EXACTLY! To be judged fairly. Why does that ONLY apply to women who use pen names? Don't men deserve to be judged fairly?

Listen, since none of you seem to read beyond current posts, I don't have anything against anyone using a pen name. AT ALL. I have no problem with any author trying to get "creative" in order to get their work to sell to their target audience. AT ALL. And sometimes in genres that are dominated for one reason or another by a particular sex as women authors do romance or men do mystery, action/adventure, etc, in order for an author not of the particular gender that dominates that genre that author may use a pen name in order to let their work speak for itself and not have those who read that particular genre roll their eyes in judgement of your sex and not your work.

But that's not what happened here with Crystal, which is why it is baffling that people keep defending what she did. Simply reading in the interview that the guy wrote romance under a pen name she expressed disappointment as to why the interviewer hadn't brought up to him the subject of men who have used pen names to write romance and gain a female following who then went on to abuse the trust their audiences put in them. Not because it may have been an interesting topic for the interviewer but because it was interesting TO HER. She suggested that men who use pen names to write romance without wanting to be judged and dismissed for being men were somehow doing something shady, implied the the guy in the interview was somehow shady because he himself did it, AND YET went out of her way to justify women who use pen names to hide their gender and write in predominantly male genres. THE APPLIED BLATANT DOUBLE STANDARD AND THE BLIND DEFENSE OF IT IS OVERWHELMING TO THE POINT OF BEING MADDENING!!!

So you're hang up is that I used the word "deception"? Get over it. You've got Crystal and others calling male authors "shady"(and suggesting worse) for doing the same exact thing as the aforementioned female authors--INCLUDING GEORGE SAND! Consider yourself lucky "deception" is all I said. If you read that interview that guy is busting his ass with a pretty damn impressive work ethic to be successful in the romance genre and not he or any other male author doing the same deserves to be sh*t on by Crystal and her "men bad" hangups or anybody elses.

Dee


----------



## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

For anyone skimming, and it seems like there's at least a couple vocal people doing so, these are all the instances of Crystal explaining it's not all men, or just men. And that's just from the first page.



Crystal_ said:


> Not all male romance authors, but enough that women are skeptical.





Crystal_ said:


> I know a handful of male romance authors. Most are cool. A few are kinda sketch. Some are open about being men, some aren't, some keep it vague. I'm pretty sure I know who the author in this interview is. If I'm right, he's a good guy (it's highly possible I'm not right).





Crystal_ said:


> If someone is respectful and they don't use their status as an author to manipulate readers, no one really cares their gender identity. The problem is when men pose as women and ask intimate questions about readers' sex lives in FB groups (this happened). Having a gender neutral or female pen name is fine (though readers might be unhappy if you're outed. It depends what you write.





Crystal_ said:


> It's not just men posing as women. There are hundreds of ways authors take advantage of readers--asking for free labor is the most common.





Crystal_ said:


> In any case, I haven't and am not saying men can't use female pen names. Or men can't write romance. I would love to see more respectful men writing romance with male pen names (I understand why people use female pen names and they're free to do it, but, in the age of social media, it's best to either withhold details completely or be forthright IMO).


----------



## Rick Partlow (Sep 6, 2016)

I have never been so happy that I just don't give a shit about this subject.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Darryl Hughes said:


> Getting this thread back on track is E-A-S-Y. You and others like you can stop talking crap about men who use pen names to garner success in a specific genre which might not welcome them under there own name since, as it has been pointing out over and over again, female authors do it all the time. That's what I and the other guys (most of the other guys I should say) object to, if I can be so bold as to speak for them.


Female authors do it all the time because a lot of men tend to avoid books by women. So in order to get readers to judge the book on its merits rather than by the name of the author, they use male or gender neutral pen names for male-dominated genres. Romance is probably the only genre where this is reversed. So, while I recognize that it's not fair going either way, I can't help but notice that your outrage on the subject seems to only be about men getting the short end of the stick in romance, and not the fact that women have been getting the short end of the stick in every other genre for decades.




Darryl Hughes said:


> And STOP with the "male authors have used pen names to get over on their female audiences before, so..." crap that was hung around the neck of the guy in the interview. Just because other male authors may have done it in the past doesn't mean the guy in the interview has done himself. Ever. And to suggest otherwise, which Crystal did with her very first post, is assuming him guilty of something that you don't know if he's ever done simply because he has a penis.
> 
> Like I said, you first.
> 
> Dee


I never said anything about the guy in the interview. I never suggested anything about the guy in the interview. I didn't read the article about the guy in the interview so I have no idea who he is or what he may have done or not done. Actually, scratch that. I went back and read the article just now. And while it's not fair to imply the guy did anything wrong, because there is zero evidence of that, the fact that the subject of male writers in romance never came up in the entire interview makes it feel incomplete. Because he's either writing as a man and is making six figures, which is very impressive, or he's writing as woman, which is more likely. And that's fine. But if he is writing as a woman, that leaves a key piece out of the story. Not saying he's being skeevy. Just saying that either way, the story is missing some info.

You're the one who has indicated that you want the thread to get back to the original subject. So if that's really the case, you're the one who should make an effort to get it back on track. Stop engaging with me and other people, and make some comments about the interview. Put something else out there for people to talk about. Whether it gets back on track or not doesn't matter to me, so I'm not the one who needs to do something about it. If you keep engaging with me and others that you disagree with, you're continuing to keep it off track and are therefore part of the problem you're complaining about. So, like I said, you first.


----------



## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Darryl Hughes said:


> EXACTLY! To be judged fairly. Why does that ONLY apply to women who use pen names? Don't men deserve to be judged fairly?
> 
> Listen, since none of you seem to read beyond current posts, I don't have anything against anyone using a pen name. AT ALL. I have no problem with any author trying to get "creative" in order to get their work to sell to their target audience. AT ALL. And sometimes in genres that are dominated for one reason or another by a particular sex as women authors do romance or men do mystery, action/adventure, etc, in order for an author not of the particular gender that dominates that genre that author may use a pen name in order to let their work speak for itself and not have those who read that particular genre roll their eyes in judgement of your sex and not your work.
> 
> ...


Ouch! I wasn't hung up on you using the word. I disagreed with the word choice. And I wasn't commenting on what Crystal said about what someone else might have said. We all know there are valid reasons to use pen names, reasons neither trending or necessarily nefarious. It is a long-established way of avoiding prejudgment. Stephen King did the same thing, but backward, to see if he could get published without relying on his name. I'm not a big fan, but I thought that was interesting.

I don't understand why that comment infuriated you. The emotional investment you have in what a poster might or might not have meant by her comments within a specific genre surprises me.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Does anyone else think it's hilarious that this thread is still open but this one got locked? (30) What makes a book a YA book? | Kindle Forum (kboards.com)


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> Does anyone else think it's hilarious that this thread is still open but this one got locked? (30) What makes a book a YA book? | Kindle Forum (kboards.com)


I also think it's interesting how we've been told that accounts can't be deleted, but those fake accounts have disappeared without a trace.


----------



## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

I've been watching this thread for a bit. Not sure where the controversy lies. Writers have been using pen names to conceal their identity for hundreds of years, for a plethora of reasons. And readers have chosen books based on the perceived identity of an author for just as long. This is nothing new. And unless there is a titanic shift in culture, I doubt it will change.
Maybe personal identity seems more important now. Someone invading another group for profit might send people into a rabid frenzy more easily today than in the past. But it seems to me that these are concerns for readers and critics. Not writers. It's hard enough to write a great book. Why pile on crap you can't control and has no noticeable impact on your life? I mean, hell! I'm still trying to figure out who Chuck Tingle is. Some guy using a female pen name in romance doesn't so much as blip on my radar. I'm too busy with _my _career to worry over someone else.


----------



## steelyis (Jul 24, 2014)

Yeah, I don't care. If I want to write romance, I'm going to write romance, and I don't care what anyone has to say about it.


Crystal_ said:


> I appreciate the interview, but I think you're readers and authors a disservice by not talking about how a male romance author is coming into a space for women... it's complicated--the sexual politics of romance novels are very complicated--but there's a big history of male romance authors trashing readers behind their backs or manipulating them.
> 
> There are tons of authors who have six-figure success success with 2-6 books a year. Mentioning one of the biggest authors in KU as your example of a less prolific who is successful is not giving people an accurate view of indie authordom. Most full-time indies are mid listers. Only discussing the biggest, most successful authors is a trad view of authoring. It isn't an indie view. & these people aren't helpful role models for new authors. They're spending six-figures a year (or month even) on advertising. Nothing wrong with that (I spend plenty), but it's out of reach for most people. It would be more helpful to new authors to interview authors who found success in the last few years.


Yeah, I don't care. If I want to write romance, I'm going to write romance, and I don't care what anyone has to say about it.


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Nine female authors who wrote under male pen names.

They broke through barriers to get their voices heard in male dominated genres, so the article says. Interesting article to read.

No doubt it's the same in the opposite direction. I know phycological thrillers are now dominated by women authors and I've thought about using a woman's pen name for a story I'm working on with a female MC. We all talk about a target audience, so if you're to write in a genre and with characters and story lines that are either male or female orientated, and in a genre dominated by readers of either sex or orientation, it makes sense to go the whole hog and use an appropriate pen name. It's not like pen names are real anyway.

You can't get away from the phycology of the decision making process to buy a book set against competition. Yes, there are readers of a particular sex designation who can enjoy books written by either sex, but there is also a perception of the mind coming into play, and thinking "What would a male author know about how a woman feels?" or "How would a woman know what it is to be in a fight or action, in the case of a male MC in a thriller or war story." Which would you pick from a line of books if nine of them were by men or women which matched certain genre expectations and the tenth was of the opposite sex and you had nothing to go by other that the author name, title, and genre?

Bestselling and award winning Scottish male author of romance, Ian Blair who died age 69 wrote his books under the name of Emma Blaire. In Britain his books were the most borrowed from libraries in some years.

As a trad-published author, I wonder if his wife stepped in for him at book signings. lol. Self-publishers don't have that to contend with, so it would make it easier.

I can't see how it's such a big deal if that's the way a self-published author wants to go. Trad-publishers have been doing this with authors for decades.

Of all my books I can remember when Girl at the Window with two female MCs was making good bank the first year of publication, but when I set it against other books published at the same time, the women authors were killing it in the genre. I remember thinking at the time, I'd have been better using a female pen name for that one. Yes there are other factors that come into play, but it had more that 4 stars on Goodreads, which takes some accumulating on there.

Regardless, in the decades to come, this will be a non-subject now that children in the US are encouraged to identify with whatever sex they choose.


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Decon said:


> You can't get away from the phycology of the decision making process to buy a book set against competition. Yes, there are readers of a particular sex designation who can enjoy books written by either sex, but there is also a perception of the mind coming into play, and thinking "What would a male author know about how a woman feels?" or "How would a woman know what it is to be in a fight or action, in the case of a male MC in a thriller or war story." Which would you pick from a line of books if nine of them were by men or women which matched certain genre expectations and the tenth was of the opposite sex and you had nothing to go by other that the author name, title, and genre?


Good points.

One could also apply this a little more to the extreme: how can a guy truly understand how a woman is going to feel or react -- or vice versa? That is one of the conundrums that authors have probably faced forever -- trying to accurately project a member of the opposite sex in their writing. When I write a female character, I always have to stand back and re-read it, thinking, 'is this realistic? Would a woman really react that way, or say that in this manner? Or does she come off like a cardboard cutout?' 

For me, I've known enough women in my life to have a reasonable barometer for my female characters, but still, I've never been inside someone else's head, much less inside a woman's head. You can't. But we're making up characters as if we are already inside their head.

The end result is you try to do the best you can, give the reader something believable as well as entertaining, and not offensive to readers (unless it's intentional, like portraying a criminal or psychopath or something). I suppose in genres dominated by female readers one should bear in mind the demographic and sensitivities of the potential reader. That's just common sense. I would think all of us here would be able to agree on that.


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I wrote a few chapters of YA story on Wattpad as an experiment as it's not a genre that I write in. The story is set in a high school with a female schoolgirl sleuth, tracking down internet pervs targeting pupils. The idea is still there for if ever I want to complete it as a book, and if I did, I'd use a female pen name as much as anything so as not to dilute my author name outside of my normal genre. I also use voice that is completely different to that I use for my adult thriller.

I didn't hide that I was a male author and uploaded it under my usual pen name, but worded the Author info as follows to give who the author was some ambiguity.


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

jb1111 said:


> Good points.
> 
> 
> 
> The end result is you try to do the best you can, give the reader something believable as well as entertaining, and not offensive to readers (unless it's intentional, like portraying a criminal or psychopath or something). I suppose in genres dominated by female readers one should bear in mind the demographic and sensitivities of the potential reader. That's just common sense. I would think all of us here would be able to agree on that.


I'll second that. I've just written an episode for a dystopian story for Vella, 5 episodes are from the POV of the male MC. 2 are from a different female POV. The first one is of the president who is also a lesbian. I should say that the world is one where the majority of citizens and those in power are women. The one I've just finished is a woman giving birth and the child is removed from her at birth against her will. Hell, the child was even conceived against her will that I have her having a flashback to. I've never given birth or had a child taken from me, or being forced to have sex, or gone through artificial insemination, nor could I ever experience having the handle of lesbian, but it didn't stop me writing the last scene with all the emotion and pain involved. I know in posting this, there will be women out there who read this and say WTF, no way could he accurately portray the emotion. Who knows? But it'll get published as is. Too much store is placed on women are from Venus and men from Mars when it comes to emotions and what is in people's mindsets in the way they act and think..

You'd have to be brought up from childhood to be a monk or a nun, or brought up in a sheltered life to be unable to accurately portray the opposite sex. I do think though that it gets easier with age from our life experiences, reading, and the differing human natures we come across in all sexes.

At the end of the day, we've all grown up from being children. Gone to school, mostly with boys and girls. Many have brothers and sisters. Experienced romances in many forms, Many of us have spouses or husbands. Experienced divorce. Found new partners. Some will have had affairs etc etc. I think many of us have a good idea how different sexes tick to be able to write about them.

edit: I might have to eat my words after doing some internet searches regards some examples of men writing about women.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

By way of closing the barn door -- locking this. I thought I locked it a week or more ago, working from my phone while on a camping trip. Apparently I flubbed that.

A note on sock-puppet accounts, of which this thread attracted quite a few. Our past practice has been to ban unauthorized additional accounts while leaving a member's initial account in place. I'm disinclined to be generous in that way going forward. One person got at least four accounts going to participate in this thread, and it's really rather tiresome. So, going forward, if you start an unauthorized additional account, you are likely to lose all your accounts.



ShayneRutherford said:


> I also think it's interesting how we've been told that accounts can't be deleted, but those fake accounts have disappeared without a trace.


We are able to ban members, but we cannot delete accounts. The accounts and posts of banned members remain on the site. In the case of a spammer or sock-puppet who drops in with a problem post or two, we try to individually remove the posts from public view, so the account may appear to have "disappeared," but it still very much on the server.


----------

