# Who is planning on launching a Vella story?



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm going to play around with this, as serialization has been enjoyable for me in the past. What are you all planning?

I'm going to do one non-fiction and three fiction stories to start with. I'll have an end in sight for the two fiction pieces but leave the non-fiction open-ended.

My thinking here is not to worry about the length of the works as much as the number of readers you might be able to draw in to finish a few shorter pieces. It all depends on how popular the platform becomes with readers. Worst case scenario, I workshop a few WIPs that get moved to KDP / CreateSpace when I'm done with them.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

As a British writer, I'm excluded. Usual short end of the stick from Amazon. I'm getting used to it.


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## swcleveland (Jun 6, 2010)

Hugh!! OMG, where have you been?


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## NikOK (Jun 27, 2020)

Yep, it could be fun. I've done serialized shorts before and I remember being surprised how much time it took up. Like, it seems easy to just do a short section at a time, but it does take a lot of commitment to keep it going. Definitely going to finish my WIP before diving into it, and maybe by then I will have a really good idea for a vella story, so it might work. My worst fear would be jumping into it without an idea that interests me and then doing a few before starting to dread doing the next one. I'm pretty into the idea of starting a Vella story, so I just want to make sure I start it with a good foot forward and not just say, hey there's a new thing, let's write something.


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

I am, a paranormal romance. I started out in fanfic, so this format is familiar. My story is written, but I am dividing it into episodes of 1000 to 1500 words so that takes some tweaking. Making some episodes a bit cliff -hangy Lol.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

I'm knee-deep in a WIP/series. I didn't write them for this format, but I've been thinking about it from the perspective of your last paragraph, viewing it as work-shopping them while I polish for KDP ultimately.

I guess I'm seeing this program as aiming for younger people/teens and I don't think my WIP is for them but who knows? I like the idea ultimately of writing a series in this format from the start, I'm just not sure if what I'm writing now fits the mold.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm going to play around with this, as serialization has been enjoyable for me in the past. What are you all planning?
> 
> I'm going to do one non-fiction and three fiction stories to start with. I'll have an end in sight for the two fiction pieces but leave the non-fiction open-ended.
> 
> My thinking here is not to worry about the length of the works as much as the number of readers you might be able to draw in to finish a few shorter pieces. It all depends on how popular the platform becomes with readers. Worst case scenario, I workshop a few WIPs that get moved to KDP / CreateSpace when I'm done with them.


Hi Hugh, I've learned a lot from you over the years. My problem with Vella is that Amazon (so far) isn't going to let us promote our website or any of our other books. It appears we'll have to rely on name recognition only. Maybe they'll reconsider. Marti's Books


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

swcleveland said:


> Hugh!! OMG, where have you been?


I went for a long sail. Back for a bit to work on some TV stuff. Just wrote my first novel in five years, so I guess I'm out of retirement?


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Marti talbott said:


> Hi Hugh, I've learned a lot from you over the years. My problem with Vella is that Amazon (so far) isn't going to let us promote our website or any of our other books. It appears we'll have to rely on name recognition only. Maybe they'll reconsider. Marti's Books


You mean with links and end matter? Yeah, that would be nice. Or at least tie into any products on KDP / CS / etc.

I hope they'll use their algorithms to cross-promote our works to readers.

I've seen some comparisons between this and the serials / worlds programs, but my sense is that they are taking Vella a lot more seriously. I don't think the thing that launches this summer will resemble what this looks like a year from now. One of the things I really hope they'll do is take the online writing environment and beef it up for KDP. Imagine being able to open a KDP book right on the website and fix a typo or update your end matter links. They really need to get something like that going, a full book-writing tool integrated into the website.


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## SaltObelisk (May 24, 2017)

I'm working on a Vella project! I currently have seven episodes uploaded and ready to go. It's YA paranormal, and it's a spinoff of my pre-existing series. 

Also, Hugh, I think you're a bit like a legend here! 😄


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Hugh Howey said:


> I went for a long sail. Back for a bit to work on some TV stuff. Just wrote my first novel in five years, so I guess I'm out of retirement?


Hey there. Long time. Been a hell of a road hasn't it? Glad to see you're home. If you're still in the states you should come to DragonCon. Bunch of people would love to see you.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm going to play around with this, as serialization has been enjoyable for me in the past. What are you all planning?
> 
> I'm going to do one non-fiction and three fiction stories to start with. I'll have an end in sight for the two fiction pieces but leave the non-fiction open-ended.
> 
> My thinking here is not to worry about the length of the works as much as the number of readers you might be able to draw in to finish a few shorter pieces. It all depends on how popular the platform becomes with readers. Worst case scenario, I workshop a few WIPs that get moved to KDP / CreateSpace when I'm done with them.


And to answer your question: yes. I have an old post-apocalyptic sci-fi story I had to set aside. Yielded 10 5000 word episodes. It's Season One of a multi-season story. As that was more or less how I intended to release it originally, this program works out great.
I have to finish up the final book for my publisher, two more for Audible and another book to pitch my editor after The Sword's Elegy is accepted and goes into copy editing/proofing/production. But breaking it into seasons like a TV show, gives me plenty of time.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> And to answer your question: yes. I have an old post-apocalyptic sci-fi story I had to set aside. Yielded 10 5000 word episodes. It's Season One of a multi-season story. As that was more or less how I intended to release it originally, this program works out great.
> I have to finish up the final book for my publisher, two more for Audible and another book to pitch my editor after The Sword's Elegy is accepted and goes into copy editing/proofing/production. But breaking it into seasons like a TV show, gives me plenty of time.


Brilliant. 10x 5k episodes sounds like a good format for this. It'll be interesting to see if most readers prefer a long ongoing series or something contained. There are so many unknowns here, which makes this exciting.

I didn't realize DragonCon was on for this year. I'll go google and see if I can swing it. Would be great to see familiar faces.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm going to play around with this, as serialization has been enjoyable for me in the past. What are you all planning?
> 
> I'm going to do one non-fiction and three fiction stories to start with. I'll have an end in sight for the two fiction pieces but leave the non-fiction open-ended.
> 
> My thinking here is not to worry about the length of the works as much as the number of readers you might be able to draw in to finish a few shorter pieces. It all depends on how popular the platform becomes with readers. Worst case scenario, I workshop a few WIPs that get moved to KDP / CreateSpace when I'm done with them.


Hi Hugh. I've already started a serial. It's a new story, open-ended, post-apoc. I've banked five episodes already. My plan is to get to a point--say, 20 episodes--where I'm writing ahead of the released episodes, so I can work on other things. (I still have novels and screenplays in flight.)


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> You mean with links and end matter? Yeah, that would be nice. Or at least tie into any products on KDP / CS / etc.
> 
> I hope they'll use their algorithms to cross-promote our works to readers.
> 
> I've seen some comparisons between this and the serials / worlds programs, but my sense is that they are taking Vella a lot more seriously. I don't think the thing that launches this summer will resemble what this looks like a year from now. One of the things I really hope they'll do is take the online writing environment and beef it up for KDP. Imagine being able to open a KDP book right on the website and fix a typo or update your end matter links. They really need to get something like that going, a full book-writing tool integrated into the website.


That would be great! I'm not a good enough writer to not go back and change/or add to the story. I was supposing we would have to make the corrections off line and re-upload. But then, what does that do to the reader? I did a little survey with my fans on Facebook and the main complaint they had with serials is not remembering what the story is about. I guess a mini-blurb for each section would be needed to solve that problem.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

I'm playing with the idea. I was planning a trilogy, but it might work as a long serialization. Most decent stories can be revised into serials. It might even strengthen them by increasing the use of hooks between segments.

My only concern is putting something out there only to find out I didn't think it through. Starting one would be a commitment. I probably want to write a number of "episodes" out completely before even launching, just to see if it feels like it has legs. I don't mind failing at it, but I'd want to make a good go of it and not disappoint readers.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

travelinged said:


> I'm playing with the idea. I was planning a trilogy, but it might work as a long serialization. Most decent stories can be revised into serials. It might even strengthen them by increasing the use of hooks between segments.
> 
> My only concern is putting something out there only to find out I didn't think it through. Starting one would be a commitment. I probably want to write a number of "episodes" out completely before even launching, just to see if it feels like it has legs. I don't mind failing at it, but I'd want to make a good go of it and not disappoint readers.


Agreed. I feel a lot of pressure having started a story, but I think that pressure will be good for me to get to the end. If I need to clean things up or make big revisions, I'll do that if / when I take it down and repackage it.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm not a big serial fiction reader, but I am a ride or die TV watcher. My ideal show is: strong case of the week, medium serialization.

Obviously, this is easiest to explain in genres with cases--lawyers and detectives--but there's a big trend towards serialized comedies, as with The Good Place or Dead to Me. It's great! I have an entertaining episode I like and an intense need to watch the next episode. Wheras with a non-serialized comedy, like Seinfeld or, more recently, the first season of Dickinson, no matter how much I adore the show, I don't feel a compulsion to watch more, because I don't desperately need to know what happens.

For me, the problem of the week is key for narrative fulfillment. TV shows that are all serialization wear me out. I never feel satisfied. Eventually, I give up.

Now, being a pantser who doesn't think in plot terms, I am struggling to figure out how I could try something like Vella without writing everything in advance and/or driving myself cray. I'm pretty worn out on my regular books, release schedule, the current state of the market, etc, so it would be nice to just experiment. Do something different, something I wouldn't normally do. But I don't know if I could take the stress of the production cycle. Maybe.

I have considered throwing my next book on there, since it's already a little different, and it's already written, but I'm not sure if it would really fit the format. Maybe... I would probably need to crank up my chapter cliffhangers.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Hugh Howey said:


> Brilliant. 10x 5k episodes sounds like a good format for this. It'll be interesting to see if most readers prefer a long ongoing series or something contained. There are so many unknowns here, which makes this exciting.
> 
> I didn't realize DragonCon was on for this year. I'll go google and see if I can swing it. Would be great to see familiar faces.


You should see if they'll put you on as a attending pro or a guest. It'll be a lot of fun this year given how long we've been on lockdown. I think we're all more than ready for a good time.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Hugh Howey said:


> Brilliant. 10x 5k episodes sounds like a good format for this. It'll be interesting to see if most readers prefer a long ongoing series or something contained. There are so many unknowns here, which makes this exciting.
> 
> I didn't realize DragonCon was on for this year. I'll go google and see if I can swing it. Would be great to see familiar faces.


I think it accomplishes one thing the first KU didn't: It weeds out subpar stories. The first three episodes are free. This means if the writing and/or story isn't very good, the reader can simply discontinue before they need to pay, and before the author makes money. I'm hearkening back to when all you needed for full royalty payment was 10% page opening and people putting out ten page erotica. One page earned them the same as a novel. Quality meant nothing.
This makes it much harder to "game the system". Writers are not penalized for bad writing - they still have all the existing KDP publishing options. But neither are they rewarded.


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## nightwork (Aug 11, 2020)

5K episodes feels too long to me?

i too have 50K ready but my episodes run in the region of 1,500-2,500 

a manageable length for me as a reader on a phone app but... I'm not every reader


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

I'm going to write my first horror/sci-fi in July for Camp wrimo. Then release it in installments in vella, then release it a few months later in Select. Then wide after the exclusive term runs out. I'm hoping the time in Vella will garner interest for an audio release when I go wide.


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## Need More Coffee (Apr 17, 2021)

I'm definitely considering it. Any word on when this goes live?


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> I think it accomplishes one thing the first KU didn't: It weeds out subpar stories. The first three episodes are free. This means if the writing and/or story isn't very good, the reader can simply discontinue before they need to pay, and before the author makes money. I'm hearkening back to when all you needed for full royalty payment was 10% page opening and people putting out ten page erotica. One page earned them the same as a novel. Quality meant nothing.
> This makes it much harder to "game the system". Writers are not penalized for bad writing - they still have all the existing KDP publishing options. But neither are they rewarded.


Absolutely! And with the voting system, hopefully that aids discoverability of the best stories.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> You should see if they'll put you on as a attending pro or a guest. It'll be a lot of fun this year given how long we've been on lockdown. I think we're all more than ready for a good time.


I put in an application. They may have all the guests they need. We'll see.



Need More Coffee said:


> I'm definitely considering it. Any word on when this goes live?


Nothing announced yet, but my gut tells me July-ish.



jdcore said:


> I'm going to write my first horror/sci-fi in July for Camp wrimo. Then release it in installments in vella, then release it a few months later in Select. Then wide after the exclusive term runs out. I'm hoping the time in Vella will garner interest for an audio release when I go wide.


This is a brilliant strategy. I like this a lot.


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## Indy Strange (Aug 29, 2019)

I'm joining in. I'll start off with a collection of fairy tales, a psychic crime procedural, and a cultivation story just to play around and see which genres readers seem interested in. Oh and all of my stories have a gay romance spin, so I'm curious to see if that helps me or hurts me. Audience response won't make me change the content of my books, but I like having that data.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Hugh Howey said:


> I put in an application. They may have all the guests they need. We'll see.


I bet under the circumstances they will. If not, I can probably get you a pro badge. I'll give you a call later this weekend if you're around.


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## goconnor (May 8, 2021)

I am an extreme procrastinator and only work under deadlines other people expect of me -- so I'm using this as a method to push myself. Really excited about the story I'm pursuing though. It's perfect for this format and I have the ending in mind which is a relief, haha.


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## A Fading Street (Sep 25, 2016)

When I write, which isn't that often these days, I fly completely by the seat of my pants so for me the idea of producing a never-ending story that can twist and change as the humour takes me is, I think, fantastic. You can't go completely wrong, completely off-line in the space of a couple of episodes, and if the feedback suggests you might be you can quickly pull things back in. Writing a couple of 2000-2500 word episodes a week isn't the hugest of time commitments especially if you've got a few in the bag which many will have. I would imagine that, for many, this will be a writing godsend even if it means earning a little less from a novel publication.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

A Fading Street said:


> When I write, which isn't that often these days, I fly completely by the seat of my pants so for me the idea of producing a never-ending story that can twist and change as the humour takes me is, I think, fantastic. You can't go completely wrong, completely off-line in the space of a couple of episodes, and if the feedback suggests you might be you can quickly pull things back in. Writing a couple of 2000-2500 word episodes a week isn't the hugest of time commitments especially if you've got a few in the bag which many will have. I would imagine that, for many, this will be a writing godsend even if it means earning a little less from a novel publication.


I love this attitude!


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm going to play around with this, as serialization has been enjoyable for me in the past. What are you all planning?
> 
> I'm going to do one non-fiction and three fiction stories to start with. I'll have an end in sight for the two fiction pieces but leave the non-fiction open-ended.
> 
> My thinking here is not to worry about the length of the works as much as the number of readers you might be able to draw in to finish a few shorter pieces. It all depends on how popular the platform becomes with readers. Worst case scenario, I workshop a few WIPs that get moved to KDP / CreateSpace when I'm done with them.


Hi, Hugh thanks for coming back and starting this discussion. I might consider it when they open it up to worldwide authors. Interested to know what genre you would go for with your fiction series?

One thing is for sure, having names like yours embrace the medium, it will stand a better chance of getting off the ground. The exclusivity will mean that fans of major brands will likely come on board because the work will only be available to read on there. In turn that will have a downward pyramid effect to lesser known authors. Amazon should think of paying some top brand names to put work on there and to promote it. Maybe you should put it to them.

I like the idea of 5,000 word episodes for a season to wrap up the major plot. (maybe shorter episodes for the first free ones.) For a full length book, that's anywhere from 14 to 18 episodes. That would be quite an word count increase for me in terms of chapter length, so the sweet spot might be lower than 5,000 words. Anyway, like you say, if they don't get the readers to sign up, at those sort of figures it can be repackaged and uploaded to KDP as a full work, but for me, split onto shorter chapters.

At first I thought it would not be worth uploading anything other that a complete season of episodes, but maybe not. If nothing else, it could be a good breeding ground to assess progress of a work in the same way as Wattpad, but with a mature audience that have money to spend and give more reasoned comments on episodes. As it stands with KDP, we can never assess if we have a chapter that turns readers off from reading on, even with a development edit. With this new medium, authors will be able to see where their shortcomings are if episode reads tank at a certain point, and they can rework the episode.

My biggest apprehension is that it will die a death if authors abandon a series. That would put people off wasting their money in future commitment to staying with the medium. The other thing is if there is a rush to upload unedited work. If it gets a bad name for content, it will fail.

The main plus I see is that pricing will be a level playing field should many trad-published authors give it a go. The only differential on price will be the word count of the episodes, which brings us back to finding the sweet spot.

I do think that authors considering this should give crafting a lot of thought. Just my opinion, but a never ending story wouldn't interest me. I would at least expect the episodes to have a season's end to a major plot before starting on a new season with a new major plot.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

There's so much here I want to discuss, Declan! You raise some great questions.



Decon said:


> Hi, Hugh thanks for coming back and starting this discussion. I might consider it when they open it up to worldwide authors. Interested to know what genre you would go for with your fiction series?


Hopefully they'll open this up worldwide soon. I imagine it's for legal reasons? Who knows. I always get bummed when I hear that anything is getting in the way of authors publishing their content. As for genre, I'm going to write two YA series and a memoir to start with.



Decon said:


> One thing is for sure, having names like yours embrace the medium, it will stand a better chance of getting off the ground. The exclusivity will mean that fans of major brands will likely come on board because the work will only be available to read on there. In turn that will have a downward pyramid effect to lesser known authors. Amazon should think of paying some top brand names to put work on there and to promote it. Maybe you should put it to them.


I'm hoping that's the case, and that some big names get involved. I don't think they need to pay us extra, though. The book industry should work more like the film, TV and music industries. With film, every movie promotes other movies in the form of trailers. TV networks use time slots and ads to promote lesser-known shows. The music industry has opening acts at concerts. I've long thought that when an author goes on tour, every stop should include a local author in the same genre who shows up and joins the event, whether it's to interview them, or introduce them, or whatever. And then sign books alongside them at the event. Not sure why publishers never worked on this. It took Amazon's "also bought" algorithms to really help lesser known authors piggyback on bigger sellers.



Decon said:


> I like the idea of 5,000 word episodes for a season to wrap up the major plot. (maybe shorter episodes for the first free ones.) For a full length book, that's anywhere from 14 to 18 episodes. That would be quite an word count increase for me in terms of chapter length, so the sweet spot might be lower than 5,000 words. Anyway, like you say, if they don't get the readers to sign up, at those sort of figures it can be repackaged and uploaded to KDP as a full work, but for me, split onto shorter chapters.


I've got 14 or so episodes "published" so far, and 5k feels way too long for my writing style. I think Vella authors are going to make* way less* money if they worry about maximizing the word count. All it would take is one 5k episode that drags on, and you're going to lose most of your readers. Far better to write easily digestible, riveting episodes that tell the story you want to tell and leave the reader wanting to know more.

In fact, a different way to go about this (rather than think about writing a long piece that gets tons of clicks) is to write LOTS of series with only a few paid episodes. That way most of the story is available for free, and you only pay a small amount to see how it ends. I think too many of us think about how to make the most from each reader, when what we should be thinking about is how do we draw in the most *number* of readers. If you can get a story to go viral, because it's not too huge of a time or financial commitment to get to the end of, you might get a hundred thousand people to read the last few paid episodes and make a lot more than trying to coax a few hundred readers to read 20+ episodes.

This is all speculation, btw. I have no idea what's going to happen. I just know from how WOOL did as a 99 cent short story that I never fully appreciated how much better it can be to concentrate on making lots of people happy rather than maximizing income per sale.



Decon said:


> At first I thought it would not be worth uploading anything other that a complete season of episodes, but maybe not. If nothing else, it could be a good breeding ground to assess progress of a work in the same way as Wattpad, but with a mature audience that have money to spend and give more reasoned comments on episodes. As it stands with KDP, we can never assess if we have a chapter that turns readers off from reading on, even with a development edit. With this new medium, authors will be able to see where their shortcomings are if episode reads tank at a certain point, and they can rework the episode.


Exactly! This is a prime place to put those first few chapters and see what takes hold. Which leads me to thinking...



Decon said:


> My biggest apprehension is that it will die a death if authors abandon a series. That would put people off wasting their money in future commitment to staying with the medium. The other thing is if there is a rush to upload unedited work. If it gets a bad name for content, it will fail.


...that this might not be a problem, because if a work takes off in early episodes, those authors would be fools to abandon them. The market will be signaling demand. That's what happened with WOOL. A short story shot up the charts and I abandoned the novel I was working on and committed fully to what was doing well. If a series is abandoned and nobody is reading it, then there's no harm at all. So these concerns should cancel each other out (I would think).



Decon said:


> The main plus I see is that pricing will be a level playing field should many trad-published authors give it a go. The only differential on price will be the word count of the episodes, which brings us back to finding the sweet spot.


Yeah, the thing I like most about this is that the price is set. That's critical. It also helps established authors, because they can't be undercut. Everyone benefits from the consistency, I think.



Decon said:


> I do think that authors considering this should give crafting a lot of thought. Just my opinion, but a never ending story wouldn't interest me. I would at least expect a season's end to a major plot before starting on a new season with a new major plot.


I agree with this. I also think that a handful of writers will find success and an audience for a never ending saga. But my hunch is that most of the popular works will be the result of well-crafted stories with an end in mind, even if it leads to a sequel that starts over with 3 free episodes again and also has an ending.

Just my thoughts.


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## alhawke (Apr 24, 2019)

Hugh Howey said:


> I've long thought that when an author goes on tour, every stop should include a local author in the same genre who shows up and joins the event, whether it's to interview them, or introduce them, or whatever. And then sign books alongside them at the event.


That's a great idea. And, btw, I'd be happy to tag along to any of your book signings or interviews with one of your launches. (ha, ha). Kidding aside, it's super cool that you're back on Kboards posting. You've been a great inspiration to me.

As far as Vella, I'm sitting back and waiting with a little trepidation. For one thing, I've never wrote short stories well. I don't know why, but I have to dig deeper in my characters and tiny excerpts have never worked well for me. Maybe ... I could see splitting up a novel, but I'd prefer to initiate it that way. I also have some fears that writers out there will put out work that's subpar in order to make more money off short 500 word works. I hope quantity won't suffer quality. For now, I plan to be late on the Vella train.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> There's so much here I want to discuss, Declan! You raise some great questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for responding with your thoughts.

Thinking about 5,000 words episodes, I guess it doesn't matter how long or short the episodes are if they grip the reader. I've just copy and pasted the first 3 chapters of a WIP into a separate doc that amounts to 5,300 words and it took me 30 minutes to read with text to speech.. Each chapter has a page turning ending (I hope,) so the chapters would be suitable episodes with an average of 1766 words. Most of my ongoing chapters are around 1500 words, with 22 complete and up to 58 planned. 30 minutes for 3 episodes would be about right for a short train commute, or a lunch break, so it won't matter if it's 1 episode at 5,000 words or 3 as the cost will be the same to the reader after the free ones. The only benefit to the reader of shorter work, is that after the free first 3 .episodes, they can drip in what comes next at a lower cost if they are not sure the author will continue to grip them...


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

alhawke said:


> That's a great idea. And, btw, I'd be happy to tag along to any of your book signings or interviews with one of your launches. (ha, ha). Kidding aside, it's super cool that you're back on Kboards posting. You've been a great inspiration to me.
> 
> As far as Vella, I'm sitting back and waiting with a little trepidation. For one thing, I've never wrote short stories well. I don't know why, but I have to dig deeper in my characters and tiny excerpts have never worked well for me. Maybe ... I could see splitting up a novel, but I'd prefer to initiate it that way. I also have some fears that writers out there will put out work that's subpar in order to make more money off short 500 word works. I hope quantity won't suffer quality. For now, I plan to be late on the Vella train.


You are too kind. I'd be honored to sign books with you.

I think the quality will be all over the place, but hopefully since all the stories start for free, readers won't suffer any buyer's remorse. And maybe the upvoting system will aid discoverability for the good stuff. Not sure if Amazon would do this, but if I were them I'd boost the visibility of stories with high retention rates and regular posting schedules. And I'd only allow upvoting from people who paid for the episode. This should cut down on attempts to game the algorithms.

So yeah, there will be bad content. But that'll always be the case everywhere. There will also be bestselling series that get their start here, and film / TV deals eventually. Only for a lucky few, but those stories will be very cool to watch unfold.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> I agree with this. I also think that a handful of writers will find success and an audience for a never ending saga. But my hunch is that most of the popular works will be the result of well-crafted stories with an end in mind, even if it leads to a sequel that starts over with 3 free episodes again and also has an ending.


My approach is to establish a setting that's sufficiently reusable that I can tell in-universe stories that have endings, while the larger story remains ongoing. I can shift from one POV character to another, basically, tell a new story in the same setting from a different perspective (a different survivor in an alien invasion setting, in this case) and then have different POV characters' stories intersect or not depending. It gives me the freedom to keep the macro storyline going as long as it has legs, or to end it after a few POV stories if it doesn't have legs.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

GeneDoucette said:


> My approach is to establish a setting that's sufficiently reusable that I can tell in-universe stories that have endings, while the larger story remains ongoing. I can shift from one POV character to another, basically, tell a new story in the same setting from a different perspective (a different survivor in an alien invasion setting, in this case) and then have different POV characters' stories intersect or not depending. It gives me the freedom to keep the macro storyline going as long as it has legs, or to end it after a few POV stories if it doesn't have legs.


I love this! And it's something you probably wouldn't attempt with a novel (WORLD WAR Z comes kinda close). This is what I loved about KDP, the freedom to publish a story that's 15,000 words long, or 5,000 words, or 500,000. Vella is going to open up new ways of telling stories.

I've hit the "publish" button twice today for two more episodes, and I'm excited. I love being able to write directly in the platform and go back and make edits even after a story is live. This really fits my habits and style.


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## cest la vie (Feb 4, 2021)

Bright shiny things usually end up being bright and shiny for only a few, so I'm managing my expectations, but I have a lot of finished literary fic with young protagonists on the hd to upload and see if maybe Vella is the right place and right readership.


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## A Fading Street (Sep 25, 2016)

Hugh Howey said:


> In fact, a different way to go about this (rather than think about writing a long piece that gets tons of clicks) is to write LOTS of series with only a few paid episodes. That way most of the story is available for free, and you only pay a small amount to see how it ends.


I think that format could work well for the type of fiction that is popular on TV in a serial format. Maybe 6 episodes 3 free, 3 paid. The trick will then be to set the seed for the next 'season' in the previous one with maybe multiple storylines emerging. Something like a detective story with a really strong main character, or even something softer like a cozy mystery series. Not sure it would work in fantasy type stories as the expectation is for longer, more involved stories but I could see maybe a sci-fi 'Adventures of......' type action series working on that basis. I must admit I hadn't considered this take on the subject.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

The biggest challenge for me is going to be keeping things within 5000 words. When you write multi-instalment epics as I do, the way you build the world and characters is a slow burn. You distribute information in drips and drabs, avoiding exposition, aka. info dumps, as a vehicle to move the story forward. Maintaining an exciting pace within restrictive word counts isn't easy when you have never worked that way before.
When I was re-editing Tallos for Vella, I had to really "trim the fat" to make it read well. I searched for natural stopping points that I could easily modify to make them endings. I hate using cliffhangers in a novel. But here, it felt as if it would be okay, so long it was occasional and not typical. Any nonessential character or scene was deleted. When I say nonessential, I mean characters who I would typically use to add flavor an color but had no specific purpose pertaining to the plot. I ramped up some of the inner dialogue, but there I had to be careful not to overuse it. It slows the pace, and 5000 words to complete an episode is a sprint.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

A Fading Street said:


> I think that format could work well for the type of fiction that is popular on TV in a serial format. Maybe 6 episodes 3 free, 3 paid. The trick will then be to set the seed for the next 'season' in the previous one with maybe multiple storylines emerging. Something like a detective story with a really strong main character, or even something softer like a cozy mystery series. Not sure it would work in fantasy type stories as the expectation is for longer, more involved stories but I could see maybe a sci-fi 'Adventures of......' type action series working on that basis. I must admit I hadn't considered this take on the subject.


Another really good idea. I like this a lot. It would be great for a mystery or cozy series.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> The biggest challenge for me is going to be keeping things within 5000 words. When you write multi-instalment epics as I do, the way you build the world and characters is a slow burn. You distribute information in drips and drabs, avoiding exposition, aka. info dumps, as a vehicle to move the story forward. Maintaining an exciting pace within restrictive word counts isn't easy when you have never worked that way before.
> When I was re-editing Tallos for Vella, I had to really "trim the fat" to make it read well. I searched for natural stopping points that I could easily modify to make them endings. I hate using cliffhangers in a novel. But here, it felt as if it would be okay, so long it was occasional and not typical. Any nonessential character or scene was deleted. When I say nonessential, I mean characters who I would typically use to add flavor an color but had no specific purpose pertaining to the plot. I ramped up some of the inner dialogue, but there I had to be careful not to overuse it. It slows the pace, and 5000 words to complete an episode is a sprint.


Are your current chapters more than 5,000 words? I wrote a piece today that bumped up on 5,000, and it felt very long to me. I probably could have chopped it in half. Then again, my books are only around 100,000, so chapters this long would mean only 20 chapters in the book, which I can't imagine.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Definitely going to participate... whenever Vella opens worldwide, that is 

I've already written the first 6 chapters, though it might be a while before I write more as my life has gotten very complicated in the past couple of weeks. But I'm pretty excited with what I've done so far.

It'll be epic fantasy in 240 episodes of 800 to 1500 words each.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

ASG said:


> Definitely going to participate... whenever Vella opens worldwide, that is
> 
> I've already written the first 6 chapters, though it might be a while before I write more as my life has gotten very complicated in the past couple of weeks. But I'm pretty excited with what I've done so far.
> 
> It'll be epic fantasy in 240 episodes of 800 to 1500 words each.


Whoa! 240 episodes! Please let me know how this goes. That'll be an interesting one to watch.

I did the math today on the 10 episodes I have published in one of my stories, and if readers read to the end, the royalties to me will be roughly $1.40. That's more than I make per paperback copy sold through CreateSpace or my traditional publishing deals. And I'm only a third of the way through that piece, so total royalty would be $5.40. That's $1.20 more than I make on my $5.99 KDP ebooks, which is as high as I like to price them.

Range of possible/potential readers and lifetime earnings:

500: $2,700
1,000: $5,400
5,000: $27,000

I know not everyone can guarantee 500 readers clicking through to the end, but that's a pretty conservative estimate for me. Even if it's just that much total, I'll be happy. But it goes to show that you don't have to publish very much here to equal ebook sales and income. It's about the same if you go by word-count.

If you get 1,000 full reads total for the lifetime of the work, that's a decent hourly wage, even if it's taking you a month to release the 30 parts (that's one episode a day, which is what I'm aiming for).

Is 5,000 readers possible? Who knows. But that's a great payout if so.

Some stories will probably get tens of thousands of readers. I look forward to hearing about those successes. And reading those stories!


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Hugh Howey said:


> Are your current chapters more than 5,000 words? I wrote a piece today that bumped up on 5,000, and it felt very long to me. I probably could have chopped it in half. Then again, my books are only around 100,000, so chapters this long would mean only 20 chapters in the book, which I can't imagine.


Often they are. And typically chapters are not written to be self-contained stories. Not not mention I rarely write single POV. In a novel I'm able to spread things out more freely. With Vella, I'm writing a collection of short stories - each with a distinct beginning, middle, and end - while interdependent, standing alone.
In a novel, I can use a chapter to introduce a location, set the scene, and foreshadow the coming conflict. With the Vella stories, I need to come to some degree of resolution. Otherwise I'm leaving the reader with repeated cliffhangers. Or I'm writing a chapter that sets the scene and nothing really happens. Think about episodes of your favorite programs. The ones people love either answer big questions, or have distinct beginnings and endings. I have to account for the fact that each episode costs money. With a novel, they might not mind a chapter that sets up the plot and builds the world. Here I think they'd mind.
My aim is to give the reader a high level of satisfaction from each episode. I want them eager to read on while simultaneously feeling as if each time they spend their money it was worth it as a stand alone experience.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> Often they are. And typically chapters are not written to be self-contained stories. Not not mention I rarely write single POV. In a novel I'm able to spread things out more freely. With Vella, I'm writing a collection of short stories - each with a distinct beginning, middle, and end - while interdependent, standing alone.
> In a novel, I can use a chapter to introduce a location, set the scene, and foreshadow the coming conflict. With the Vella stories, I need to come to some degree of resolution. Otherwise I'm leaving the reader with repeated cliffhangers. Or I'm writing a chapter that sets the scene and nothing really happens. Think about episodes of your favorite programs. The ones people love either answer big questions, or have distinct beginnings and endings. I have to account for the fact that each episode costs money. With a novel, they might not mind a chapter that sets up the plot and builds the world. Here I think they'd mind.
> My aim is to give the reader a high level of satisfaction from each episode. I want them eager to read on while simultaneously feeling as if each time they spend their money it was worth it as a stand alone experience.


Makes sense to me. So far with my memoir Vella story, I'm giving mostly self-contained entries with a conclusion, though a few are two-parters. But with the fiction story, some of my entries are like chapters from a novel, and there is no major conclusion. And certainly I'm creating cliff-hangers. I guess we'll see if 4,000 carefully constructed words are worth 40 cents to a reader, or if they'll get frustrated and not want to read any more. It could be that my fiction approach is going about this entirely wrong, in which case I'll need to take it down and reformat it as an ebook.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

It will be interesting to see how different genres provide the hook that keeps readers in the story, whether it's a thread through a series of essentially standalone stories in one world or a continuous story, where each installment is less a chapter than a scene providing an obstacle that must be overcome (and leaves resolution in doubt or hanging fire). I lean more toward the Dickens model than the Perils of Pauline personally, but there are many valid approaches and the readers will tell us which methods appeal to them. There is the possibility that these readers aren't looking for the same structure as television, but that is how they were trained to process story, so...

It will be fun to watch.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

travelinged said:


> It will be interesting to see how different genres provide the hook that keeps readers in the story, whether it's a thread through a series of essentially standalone stories in one world or a continuous story, where each installment is less a chapter than a scene providing an obstacle that must be overcome (and leaves resolution in doubt or hanging fire). I lean more toward the Dickens model than the Perils of Pauline personally, but there are many valid approaches and the readers will tell us which methods appeal to them. There is the possibility that these readers aren't looking for the same structure as television, but that is how they were trained to process story, so...
> 
> It will be fun to watch.


It's interesting, because I'm realizing that though my main series is structured as a TV show, my Vella project is not. It's a continuous story built more like a novel with each episode being a chapter in the book. But each episode will add something to the story, and typically ask a new question while sometimes answering an older one. There won't necessarily be cliffhangers all the time, though it will be structured in such a way that the reader will (hopefully) want to keep reading


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Hugh Howey said:


> Makes sense to me. So far with my memoir Vella story, I'm giving mostly self-contained entries with a conclusion, though a few are two-parters. But with the fiction story, some of my entries are like chapters from a novel, and there is no major conclusion. And certainly I'm creating cliff-hangers. I guess we'll see if 4,000 carefully constructed words are worth 40 cents to a reader, or if they'll get frustrated and not want to read any more. It could be that my fiction approach is going about this entirely wrong, in which case I'll need to take it down and reformat it as an ebook.


You are certainly skilled and talented enough to make it compelling. I've always loved your work. And your reputation alone should make a reader want to keep going. The Silo series was a phenomenon the like of which has never been repeated. Those who weren't around in those days can't fathom how well it did. You practically broke the internet. 
I have to overcome the fact that I write fantasy and my Vella project is something different. Fantasy is what I'm known for. Anything else, even a similar genre like sci-fi, isn't going to garner as much attention or enthusiasm. I have a sizable platform and fan base, but I've tried to move away from fantasy before with little success.
When I picture Vella as a reader, I consider that it is written in bite sized pieces. Season One will be available in its entirety because by the time it launches all the publication dates will have been reached. Season Two, unless I misunderstand Amazon's intent, will be different in the respect that I have to wait a week before publishing a new episode. I want to establish a format now. Let the reader know what to expect down the road; that they can count on installments that don't force them to wait a week to find out what happens. 
Understand I don't mean the episodes will be detached from one another. You wouldn't want to read episode 5 before you read 1-4. If you did the story wouldn't make sense. But from a situational perspective, I want the events of an episode to resolve if at all possible. I'm planning 11 episodes for Season One and 10 for Season Two. Each season is roughly 50k words each. All fall within 3500-5000 words.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> Understand I don't mean the episodes will be detached from one another. You wouldn't want to read episode 5 before you read 1-4. If you did the story wouldn't make sense. But from a situational perspective, I want the events of an episode to resolve if at all possible. I'm planning 11 episodes for Season One and 10 for Season Two. Each season is roughly 50k words each. All fall within 3500-5000 words.


Sounds like a good plan. I think for a lot of readers, seeing that the story is "done" will be a draw. Especially if they get burned a couple of times by stories that never finish.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Hugh Howey said:


> Sounds like a good plan. I think for a lot of readers, seeing that the story is "done" will be a draw. Especially if they get burned a couple of times by stories that never finish.


Yeah. I won't release season two until it's completely written. No need to put undo pressure on myself.
I'm transitioning away from indie for a while and sticking with Tor for at least one more series. I have to pull back or I'll end up sick or worse. I still have two indie books to finish. But after that, I'm slowing way the hell down. I've been at this for more than a decade and figure it's time for some fun. Do some conventions. See the country on my Harley. The beauty part of being a writer is I can still work. So long as there's electricity and a quiet spot, I'm golden.


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## AmesburyArcher (Jan 16, 2017)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm going to play around with this, as serialization has been enjoyable for me in the past. What are you all planning?
> 
> I'm going to do one non-fiction and three fiction stories to start with. I'll have an end in sight for the two fiction pieces but leave the non-fiction open-ended.
> 
> My thinking here is not to worry about the length of the works as much as the number of readers you might be able to draw in to finish a few shorter pieces. It all depends on how popular the platform becomes with readers. Worst case scenario, I workshop a few WIPs that get moved to KDP / CreateSpace when I'm done with them.


Me! Sadly, I will have to wait till it reaches the U.K....if it does.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Talking about crafting. I think it would be a good idea to have arrived at the inciting incident rather than foreshadowing in the last para of the third free episode, for the reader to become more invested in wanting to read on. Just a thought.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Decon said:


> Talking about crafting. I think it would be a good idea to have arrived at the inciting incident rather than foreshadowing in the last para of the third free episode, for the reader to become more invested in wanting to read on. Just a thought.


There are several ways it could work. Much will hinge on the storytelling style of the writer. Your method for building tension. Your choice of _reveal _placement. The way you transition. There's not really a correct way to do it. There's only what complements your style best.
I'm making some significant adjustments. From a large cast of important characters, down to a couple. From plot points spanning multiple chapters, to single event episodes. I've spent years extending the scope of my stories. Currently, my books are around 125k words (3 book series). But the next will land around 180k. Possibly more. 4 MCs with 4 separate storylines told simultaneously.


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## markpauloleksiw (Jan 15, 2019)

Lots of alarm bells in my little mind.

Basically, what is really in it for the author? How much marketing is required for an author to have a reasonable chance of making money on this. Basically, this strikes me as Zon finding a way to cover the canvas with free content and those who will benefit are the "author brands" or those who have large following already.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

markpauloleksiw said:


> Lots of alarm bells in my little mind.
> 
> Basically, what is really in it for the author? How much marketing is required for an author to have a reasonable chance of making money on this. Basically, this strikes me as Zon finding a way to cover the canvas with free content and those who will benefit are the "author brands" or those who have large following already.


For an author with little to no following, it's one more place to submit a lottery ticket and hope to get lucky with a story, especially a WIP. Put up a story as you're working on it, and if it takes off, awesome. You've got new readers and made some money. If it doesn't take off, then no harm no foul. Take it down and publish it as an ebook as you probably would have anyway.

I see zero downside to putting WIPs on Vella.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

markpauloleksiw said:


> Lots of alarm bells in my little mind.
> 
> Basically, what is really in it for the author? How much marketing is required for an author to have a reasonable chance of making money on this. Basically, this strikes me as Zon finding a way to cover the canvas with free content and those who will benefit are the "author brands" or those who have large following already.



Let's be realistic, it is exactly the same with brands and followers on kindle regards competition, only there will be less of them, at least to start with. From reports on the internet, according to bookstat there were 2.6 million books sold online in 2020 and of those 258 sold more than 100,000 copies. That's 0.01%. Of that figure, 95% of them sold 0 -1000 copies.. This is the market we are embroiled in, so the majority are not making wages. (not sure if that's only for barcoded books as I'm sure there will be more books than that)

Amazon do not like totally free content. They have gone out of their way with changes to algos over the years to cut down on the amount of free content. and have on the whole succeeded in culling it to sensible levels. Not even Amazon make money from free content. The first 3 episodes free is marketing for all that costs nothing to entice readers to take a look. It's no different to the look inside.

All Vella is, is a market they have recognized could be huge in the future. Wattpad have been going some time with mostly young readers who don't have an income to buy books, but just as Barnham said, there is one of them born every minute. Those youngsters have been on there a while, and so every month, hoards of them become earners and further along the literate scale. No doubt many will be interested in moving on from a lot of the dross published on there. Wattpad are reported to have 90 million users. Other similar platforms have upwards of 40 million users following fan fiction spending an average hour a day online reading. All these sites work the same way in that you read chapters as they are posted.

Only Wattpad have moneytised content , but only by invite. Readers buy tokens, so no guessing where Amazon got the idea from. You have to have had millions of views on there to be considered for inclusion. So far Wattpad have reported to have around 550 authors participating with around $1 million in author earnings. Within those, there will be winners and losers.

I can understand concern at a new venture, but it's not really a gamble unless you are earning tons of money, because if it doesn't work for you, you can always unpublish and upload to kindle. I know some authors say they will load extra work on there in addition to stuff they write for kindle, but I'm not sure that will be possible for everyone. So if you choose to leave it alone, maybe the ones that take it up will reduce the amount of new work uploaded every day on Kindle to decrease the ongoing competition,

In that regards, it's a win - win, whichever way you go.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

markpauloleksiw said:


> Lots of alarm bells in my little mind.
> 
> Basically, what is really in it for the author? How much marketing is required for an author to have a reasonable chance of making money on this. Basically, this strikes me as Zon finding a way to cover the canvas with free content and those who will benefit are the "author brands" or those who have large following already.


First, the royalty rate for 100k words is approximately triple that of a $3.99 ebook in KU. While it is 50% compared to 70%, if each episode is 5000 (the maximum) you are making 50% of the purchase on 85k words. Depending on how the customer buys the coins, you can make as much as $10 per book (this is based on the price they had listed for coins a couple of weeks ago). Marketing is a reality of being a writer - indie or traditional. And I don't see how the first three episodes being free equates to covering the canvas with free content. While the maximum word count is 5000, the minimum is 600. Conceivably you could be earning royalties after 1800 words. If that's as long as your story is, then this program might not be a good fit. It won't be for every writer.
Naturally, those of us who have spent years building an audience will have an advantage. But it's not unearned nor is it unexpected. New talent get discovered all the time. In fact, the first three episode being free increasing your chances for discoverability. The reader can try out your work with no monetary risk and having spent only a short time reading, and you get the chance to hook them. Importantly, as a new program, being there from the beginning gives you an even better chance of building your audience. People are always excited about something new. There will likely be far more Vella readers in the first few months than after a few years. Now is the time to get yourself seen.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

There is a downside to those with a multitude of followers of them embracing the new medium. Just as not all authors will be convinced to upload work to Vella, not all followers will be convinced to download the app when they are happy with their kindle. Besides that, I doubt avid readers follow just one author. However, it is a chance to garner a new following in addition to what you already have on kindle and for those readers who are prepared to flit between the two. Everyone will have to make their own decision. If I was making good bank, I'd leave it, unless I had the ability and time to keep two plates spinning.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I was against this idea in the beginning, but ... I just uploaded episode 2. What convinced me was someone's idea (I don't know who's) that we could publish on Vella, take it down, and then publish it on KDP as a full novel. That makes sense to me. I decided to use the name of my 4 book _Jackie Harlan Detective Agency_ as the title, hoping people will look for my other books. I don't think my current fans will go for Vella, and we still have to do all the promoting, but what else is new?  Marti's 50 book and counting website.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Well this is just plain weird and spooky. One of my Vella projects is a memoir that blends my sailing adventures with other wild stuff that's happened to me over the years. I am writing an episode about what happened with the publication of WOOL, and I couldn't remember what year the first story went up. So I searched my website for the first mention of the story, and here's what I found:









Wool - Hugh Howey


My current project is another short novella, about the length of The Plagiarist. I’m really enjoying working with the constraints of 10,000 – 15,000 words. Developing characters and an interesting story in this frame is a challenge, but the reward is a piece of fiction readers can digest in a...




hughhowey.com





While I was still writing the story, I uploaded the first three chapters to my blog for people to read for free. Then I went back to working on the story. Sound familiar?

How weird that I was working on a Vella episode when I discovered that my best-selling work of all time was basically published like it was on Vella! I'm still laughing over here.

So, for anyone who wonders if giving away three chapters for free and charging a little for the rest can work, there's at least one example in the wild.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Well this is just plain weird and spooky. One of my Vella projects is a memoir that blends my sailing adventures with other wild stuff that's happened to me over the years. I am writing an episode about what happened with the publication of WOOL, and I couldn't remember what year the first story went up. So I searched my website for the first mention of the story, and here's what I found:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did the same thing, publishing short stories on my website for people to read free, and then combined them into collections on Amazon.. I wonder if Amazon would yell if we also put the first three Vella episodes on our websites.


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## markpauloleksiw (Jan 15, 2019)

Every author need to do their due diligence on this. My research suggests the TOS for this will be very stringent and authors need to check their rights.

Also, the payout method is not that straight forward...what users need to pay as fees over and above the tokens plus how free tokens are factored in will affect an author's pay. Some are estimating the actually author royalty could be whittled down from a stated 50% to an effective 35%.

This could work out very well for some but, be a colossal waste of time for others. A note that there are already writers out there who have mastered this space (serialized story telling) and Amazon is trying to lure them and their audiences over.

If it sounds too good to be true in the zon world...it usually is. Just do your homework.


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

I posted a story on Vella titled, Damaged Goods. We'll see what happens. I have a couple of questions which I did not see addressed anywhere yet. 
What if your story does not 'take off,' and you decide to pull it? Is there a timeline for when you can do that?
Which 'type' of story do folks believe will do the best on Vella, 'Done,' or "WIP?'
Thank you!


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Paul Clayton said:


> Which 'type' of story do folks believe will do the best on Vella, 'Done,' or "WIP?'
> Thank you!


I don't think we'll know that until after it's launched and we start to get feedback from those participating. At a guess, I think it's likely to be completed content if there is enough of it.

Looking at the paid content on Wattpad, it's quite a variety of genres, but they are all complete. Most of the covers seem to infer a romantic element even for science fiction. The covers for thrillers are perhaps the most apt. Saying that, they don't have much paid content, so breaking it down to genre, there's not much on offer.

Considering they have 80 million users on there for the free stuff, I had to practically live on there in 2018 to market a work in progress that I posted a chapter on there every day. I only had 4 readers who followed it all the way to the end as I posted the chapters. Only when it was posted in full did I get chart traction to the top 50. Later I reduced it to three chapters and published on kindle.

It is for that reason, I think completed works will win the day.

I still have two other partial WIPs on there since I ducked out in 2018,,(One an experiment to what I usually write) but I've just looked, there's been no one looking or commenting at all since then.

Wattpad paid content


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Decon said:


> Considering they have 80 million users on there for the free stuff, I had to practically live on there in 2018 to market a work in progress that I posted a chapter on there every day. I only had 4 readers who followed it all the way to the end as I posted the chapters. Only when it was posted in full did I get chart traction to the top 50. Later I reduced it to three chapters and published on kindle.
> 
> It is for that reason, I think completed works will win the day.
> 
> Wattpad paid content


This is great info, Declan. Thanks!


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

One more question about Vella.

What if you post a story there and it just doesn't do well? Can you just take it down and then publish it elsewhere? Or is there an amount of time which must elapse before you can take it down? Thanks.


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## MMSN (Feb 27, 2019)

"*Delete an episode*
You can delete a *Draft* episode to remove it from your Kindle Vella Library. You can't delete episodes that have been *Live.* After you delete or unpublish a story, that action can't be undone.

To delete an episode:

Go to your Kindle Vella Library.
Click *Manage your story*.
Go to episode you want to delete.
Click *Delete draft*.
Click *Yes* to confirm you want to delete the episode."
They don't say anything about having to wait after you unpublish.


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## Ross Harrison (May 5, 2012)

I do have a couple of post-apocalyptic short stories that were always meant to continue. I just haven't got back to them. Perhaps by the time Amazon decides to open it up to UK writers too, I'll have something complete to give it a try with. It will be an interesting challenge for someone who doesn't plan very much before writing.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> This is great info, Declan. Thanks!


Your welcome.

What I should have said was that those 4 who followed me all the way through on Wattpad were mature readers who regularly commented on sections. It was like having 4 development editors, so by the time I had it on there in full, it was good to go. So I can't say it wasn't worth it. That in itself was worth more than an income. However looking at MMSNs post below, It doesn't look as though it works in the same way as regards updating an episode. That needs clarifying. I can only hope there is a way of updating episodes from feedback comments. Especially if people stop reading at a certain episode that isn't working.

I'm thinking you must be able to update an episode, rather than to delete it. What I do like is that the same as on Wattpad, you can exchange messages with those who comment, so you can build a rapport with them to maybe retain them. That could be dangerous though and could lead to tears for those without a hard skin who get bad feedback.

When I said marketing on Wattpad was time consuming, all that involved was having to read other works and commenting to get feedback on my own, but that usually involved only return reads on a first chapter as part of the game on there to get noticed with a chart position. Obviously, that won't be the case on Vella. Unless Amazon introduce some sort of paid ads, then it will be down to the authors to try and encourage readers to join Vella to read their work via, social media and blogs. For now, I can't think how visibility will work unless you get visibility from a multitude likes and buys, or by readers searching the genre lists.


@MMSN
"*Delete an episode*
You can delete a *Draft* episode to remove it from your Kindle Vella Library. *You can't delete episodes that have been Live. After you delete or unpublish a story, that action can't be undone.*

To delete an episode:

Go to your Kindle Vella Library.
Click *Manage your story*.
Go to episode you want to delete.
Click *Delete draft*.
Click *Yes* to confirm you want to delete the episode."
Anyway, I am not saying it isn't worth uploading as you go, just that I think those who upload a finished season of episodes with a finale before moving on will have a better chance of selling what is on offer. It might be different for those with a known brand.

The way I look at it is having a store with a sofa in one window in the process of being upholstered, and with a price tag of $1000 for delivery in three months. In the second window there is a completed one the same price for immediate delivery. If you had a need of sofa, which would you buy?


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## Ross Harrison (May 5, 2012)

Decon said:


> Anyway, I am not saying it isn't worth uploading as you go, just that I think those who upload a finished season of episodes with a finale before moving on will have a better chance of selling what is on offer. It might be different for those with a known brand.


There also wouldn't be the risk of being unable to write and episode or two, for any number of reasons, and then losing readers because of it.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Ross Harrison said:


> There also wouldn't be the risk of being unable to write and episode or two, for any number of reasons, and then losing readers because of it.


I image that is negated in the same way as on Wattpad. Readers who click to follow you will be notified when you recommence uploading an episode. I guess it's all down to how long you are delayed in uploading a new episode for the reader to lose interest..


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

My advice is to be at least 3-4 episodes ahead. Though having your story completed would be even better.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

MMSN said:


> "*Delete an episode*
> You can delete a *Draft* episode to remove it from your Kindle Vella Library. You can't delete episodes that have been *Live.* After you delete or unpublish a story, that action can't be undone.
> 
> To delete an episode:
> ...


So, the way I read that, if you can't delete episodes that have been live, you can't publish on Vella, then take it down to republish as a book the way Hugh and others talked about. Anyone else reading it that way?


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

travelinged said:


> So, the way I read that, if you can't delete episodes that have been live, you can't publish on Vella, then take it down to republish as a book the way Hugh and others talked about. Anyone else reading it that way?


I think you might be right. That's a deal killer for me. I was planning a full-length novel, but now I'm thinking short stories are the best way to go in Vella. Marti's Books


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## markpauloleksiw (Jan 15, 2019)

BTW, I am not posting this to be a naysayer. I seriously consider this path and then started reading info from a lot of reputable sources. The common thread was there were strings attached so each author needs to be certain they comfortable with the lack of flexibility.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Any other "strings" you'd like to point out. This is an ideal place for that.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I would not be interested if engaging with comments is a big part of the platform. I don't need another social media platform.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Well, I looked and looked, and NO, we can't delete episodes after they go live. My mistake for not researching that before I published two episodes. What to do, what to down. I hoped to take them down and then use the material in a full length novel. Now I can't. I probably can't turn it into a short story either, but I can change the contents, so maybe that will work out. BIG MISTAKE on my part. Back to the drawing board. Website


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

travelinged said:


> So, the way I read that, if you can't delete episodes that have been live, you can't publish on Vella, then take it down to republish as a book the way Hugh and others talked about. Anyone else reading it that way?


You can unpublish a story.





__





Kindle Vella - Start a Story







kdp.amazon.com





Unpublishing the story unpublishes all the episodes.


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## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

Sounds like they don't want authors making drastic changes after publishing episodes, which makes sense.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

jaxonreed said:


> You can unpublish a story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't find a way to unpublish either. However, I did come up with a way to turn mine into a short story, sort of like a prolog to the bigger story. Problem solved.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Nick G said:


> Sounds like they don't want authors making drastic changes after publishing episodes, which makes sense.


It's probably because they don't want readers to get hooked on a story only to have it disappear.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Wow. You have to delete each episode and the unpublish. Imagine someone with a 100 episodes! 
Thanks for that Jaxonreed.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

travelinged said:


> So, the way I read that, if you can't delete episodes that have been live, you can't publish on Vella, then take it down to republish as a book the way Hugh and others talked about. Anyone else reading it that way?


I've been told by a Vella rep that it'll be possible to take down works and publish them elsewhere. You own all the rights. But I can try to get some clarification here on how that will actually work. It would be a deal-breaker for me as well.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Interestingly, that leaves them vulnerable. For instance, suppose all the authors who attract the most readers decide the money there isn't worth it (or that the effort of the format isn't worth it) and move the works somewhere else? I'll bet they wind up (at the least) doing something like KDP where it has to stay there for x amount of time. That wouldn't be a deal breaker, just a complication.


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

travelinged said:


> Wow. You have to delete each episode and the unpublish. Imagine someone with a 100 episodes!
> Thanks for that Jaxonreed.


I'm not sure that is correct. There are separate ASIN's for the story and its episodes. I am also seeing an "Unpublish your story" button in my Vella Library. That tells me it seems entirely reasonable that everything could be unpublished at once.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

jaxonreed said:


> I'm not sure that is correct. There are separate ASIN's for the story and its episodes. I am also seeing an "Unpublish your story" button in my Vella Library. That tells me it seems entirely reasonable that everything could be unpublished at once.


Yeah, clicking that button warns me that the story will be taken down from the Amazon store. This is an entire story that's currently "Live," so it appears you can remove the whole series with two clicks.

I don't see any reason they'd make it impossible to remove a story. If it's making a lot of money, the author is the one taking the risk by removing it. And Amazon should be hoping and praying that some of the Vella stories get picked up for publication elsewhere, or optioned for TV / Film. That's the kind of PR that will drive authors and readers alike to the platform.

My reading of that KDP page (I've changed my mind about this ten times now) is that you will be able to unpulish something that went out live but you won't be able to delete it once it's been up on the store. I'm guessing this is because the reader will always have access to stories they've read/bought, even if you unpublish them. That won't stop you from publishing them elsewhere, or signing a publishing contract, because the stories will no longer be on the storefront "for sale." They'll just be on some readers' devices.

I'm digging for clarification on this now.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I've been told by a Vella rep that it'll be possible to take down works and publish them elsewhere. You own all the rights. But I can try to get some clarification here on how that will actually work. It would be a deal-breaker for me as well.


I'll be watching. I would love to take mine two episodes off of Vella.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Part of the confusion is that they talk about unpublishing and deleting as separate things. Yes, it says you can unpublish, but...
To unpublish a story:

Go to your Kindle Vella Library.
Click *Unpublish story*.

To delete a story:

Delete the episodes in the story.
Go to your Kindle Vella Library.
Click *Delete story*
I'd need clarification. Can I republish a story that I've unpublished or does it need deletion?'


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## David Wisehart (Mar 2, 2010)

You can unpublish.

You can't delete.

After you unpublish, those who already bought past episodes will still have access to them.

Check the Community tab on your KDP dashboard. This has been answered by an Amazon rep.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Yeah, clicking that button warns me that the story will be taken down from the Amazon store. This is an entire story that's currently "Live," so it appears you can remove the whole series with two clicks.
> 
> I don't see any reason they'd make it impossible to remove a story. If it's making a lot of money, the author is the one taking the risk by removing it. And Amazon should be hoping and praying that some of the Vella stories get picked up for publication elsewhere, or optioned for TV / Film. That's the kind of PR that will drive authors and readers alike to the platform.
> 
> ...


Is there anything they say for updating an episode from feedback, for say a typo, or such as going in to re-edit if people are not getting past reading an episode and so needs reworking to give more zest, even when live and published as opposed to draft. If you can't see that can you ask the Vella rep please?

Obviously, editing and reuploading is something we can do with out e-Books and print
books while the books remain live..


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

Decon said:


> Is there anything they say for updating an episode from feedback, for say a typo, or such as going in to re-edit if people are not getting past reading an episode and so needs reworking to give more zest, even when live and published as opposed to draft. If you can't see that can you ask the Vella rep please?
> 
> Obviously, editing and reuploading is something we can do with out e-Books and print
> books while the books remain live..


I've edited episodes. It goes through the same review process as new episodes.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Marti talbott said:


> I'll be watching. I would love to take mine two episodes off of Vella.


Just got an answer. The language on that Vella page is poorly worded. All it means is that when you unpublish or delete a story from the Vella store, it will not disappear from your own library. The draft will always appear there. The same as in KDP.

You can definitely unpublish and delete Vella stories from the Vella storefront whenever you like and publish them elsewhere. Hopefully they will clear up the language on the FAQ page.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Just got an answer. The language on that Vella page is poorly worded. All it means is that when you unpublish or delete a story from the Vella store, it will not disappear from your own library. The draft will always appear there. The same as in KDP.
> 
> You can definitely unpublish and delete Vella stories from the Vella storefront whenever you like and publish them elsewhere. Hopefully they will clear up the language on the FAQ page.


I finally figured out how to unpublish. I think my episodes were still in review, which is why I couldn't do it before. Anyway, I decided to put the episodes on my website instead - that way my other books will get more exposure. Thanks for all your help. A Jackie Harlan Short Story FREE online.


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## AaronFrale (Jun 15, 2016)

I figured out the hard way that you cannot reorder your episodes once it's published. I tried to swap two previously approved episodes via cutting and pasting. It got blocked in content review, then spent about two weeks with customer service to get them unblocked so I could switch it back. I imagine its par for the course with new technology. Release it to the public and we'll figure out how to break it.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

AaronFrale said:


> I figured out the hard way that you cannot reorder your episodes once it's published. I tried to swap two previously approved episodes via cutting and pasting. It got blocked in content review, then spent about two weeks with customer service to get them unblocked so I could switch it back. I imagine its par for the course with new technology. Release it to the public and we'll figure out how to break it.


Good warning. I'm also finding it tricky to keep a record of the content in my own files, since I'm writing in their editor (which I love doing). So now I'm in the habit of copying / pasting each story into a new chapter of a single word document. This helps me keep up with the total word count, and makes it easier to reference earlier chapters as I'm writing.

The cursor acts weird in my browser, popping up to the previous paragraph if I don't start typing right away. I found putting a word a few line breaks down and then writing above this prevents that.


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## AaronFrale (Jun 15, 2016)

Hugh Howey said:


> Good warning. I'm also finding it tricky to keep a record of the content in my own files, since I'm writing in their editor (which I love doing). So now I'm in the habit of copying / pasting each story into a new chapter of a single word document. This helps me keep up with the total word count, and makes it easier to reference earlier chapters as I'm writing.
> 
> The cursor acts weird in my browser, popping up to the previous paragraph if I don't start typing right away. I found putting a word a few line breaks down and then writing above this prevents that.


I've been doing word to vella. I found that copy and paste as plain text prevents weirdness with the text (a straight copy n' paste from word to vella makes for a lot of weird breaks). But yeah I noticed that cursor thing happens when I edit in the editor. So I use the preview feature to edit.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I see they've added to their information.

Royalties You’ll earn 50% of what readers spend on the Tokens that are used to unlock your story’s episodes. You’ll also be eligible for a launch bonus based on customer activity and engagement. To make it easy for readers to find stories they love, the first few episodes of every story are free. The number of Tokens needed to unlock an episode is determined by the episode’s word count at the rate of one token per 100 words. You can view the number of Tokens needed to unlock an episode on the episode setup page. *We plan to make Tokens available through mobile channels that charge a fee. In this case, the fee will be deducted from the revenue that is shared.*


My take of it is that they are to arrange for customer to buy tokens through other company mobile apps such as apple which knowing them could be as much as 30%c. They will want a cut, which could take that 50% down to 35%. Just saying.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> Good warning. I'm also finding it tricky to keep a record of the content in my own files, since I'm writing in their editor (which I love doing). So now I'm in the habit of copying / pasting each story into a new chapter of a single word document. This helps me keep up with the total word count, and makes it easier to reference earlier chapters as I'm writing.
> 
> The cursor acts weird in my browser, popping up to the previous paragraph if I don't start typing right away. I found putting a word a few line breaks down and then writing above this prevents that.


I'm writing in word with no paragraph indent, with formatting set to 6 after each paragraph. It produces blocks of text exactly as they appear in the Vella preview. After I've finished an episode in word, I'm importing it into Vella. It translates just fine. If I want to know how many words the combined volume consists of, I'll have to put the individual episodes into a single document, but that's not something I'm really worried about right now.


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

Decon said:


> I see they've added to their information.
> 
> Royalties You’ll earn 50% of what readers spend on the Tokens that are used to unlock your story’s episodes. You’ll also be eligible for a launch bonus based on customer activity and engagement. To make it easy for readers to find stories they love, the first few episodes of every story are free. The number of Tokens needed to unlock an episode is determined by the episode’s word count at the rate of one token per 100 words. You can view the number of Tokens needed to unlock an episode on the episode setup page. *We plan to make Tokens available through mobile channels that charge a fee. In this case, the fee will be deducted from the revenue that is shared.*
> 
> ...


Interesting. Well, since they're releasing on iOS it looks like maybe they decided to let iOS users buy tokens in-app. You can't currently purchase Amazon books through the iOS Kindle app, but maybe they figured the inconvenience factor would be too high for folks using their iPhones when accessing Vella. 

I guess we'll find out soon enough. The lawsuit between Epic and Apple over the 30% is ongoing, so that might affect things too.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

jaxonreed said:


> Interesting. Well, since they're releasing on iOS it looks like maybe they decided to let iOS users buy tokens in-app. You can't currently purchase Amazon books through the iOS Kindle app, but maybe they figured the inconvenience factor would be too high for folks using their iPhones when accessing Vella.
> 
> I guess we'll find out soon enough. The lawsuit between Epic and Apple over the 30% is ongoing, so that might affect things too.


This would be a game-changer if they have in-app purchasing through iOS devices. You'll see a ton of indies complaining about 35% vs the 70% they get on KDP, but the expanded reach would make this worth considering. It's similar to the calculations you have to make with a trad vs. indie route now: reach vs. per-unit earnings.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Decon said:


> To make it easy for readers to find stories they love, the first few episodes of every story are free.


This troubles me a little. If they've gone from "the first three episodes are free" to "first few episodes", it could mean they plan to increase the number of free installments?


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

ASG said:


> This troubles me a little. If they've gone from "the first three episodes are free" to "first few episodes", it could mean they plan to increase the number of free installments?


Amazon doesn't like doing free any more than they have to. They aren't a small tech startup hoping someone buys them because of "user growth." They need to make money, or the big teams working on Vella have to be shuffled off to a different program while Vella gets shut down.

They are going to try to maximize their income, which means maximizing our income. They will use all the data and smarts at their disposal to do this.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Hugh Howey said:


> Amazon doesn't like doing free any more than they have to. They aren't a small tech startup hoping someone buys them because of "user growth." They need to make money, or the big teams working on Vella have to be shuffled off to a different program while Vella gets shut down.
> 
> They are going to try to maximize their income, which means maximizing our income. They will use all the data and smarts at their disposal to do this.


I'm sure you're right, but I do find the vague language odd and off-putting.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> This would be a game-changer if they have in-app purchasing through iOS devices. You'll see a ton of indies complaining about 35% vs the 70% they get on KDP, but the expanded reach would make this worth considering. It's similar to the calculations you have to make with a trad vs. indie route now: reach vs. per-unit earnings.


The percentages don't really count, or the first 3 as free. What counts is the amount you get paid as a comparison to KDP. Also the difference of being a big fish in an initial small pond or the opposite via KDP. My recent post-apocalyptic-dystopian trilogy books are 95,000 words each @60 chapters, each at around 1600 words per chapter. As thrillers they are episodic anyway in the way each ends.

If I were to write something similar as a season of episodes for Vella and the first 3 were free. Then if someone read all the episodes, I would be paid for. 57 episodes, or 91,200 words. At 100 words per token, that's 912 tokens to read all the season's episodes.

What I've done is to calculate from someone buying 1100 tokens at $9.99 the next to last option. The reader would therefore have to spend 912 of them to read my season's episodes.$9.99/1100 @100 words per token=0.00908 per token. So 912 = a cost of $8.28 to the reader. The average cost of my episodes to the reader would be 16 x 0.00908 = 0.145 cents

8.28 X 50% = $4.14 royalty

However if there is a charge of 30% to buy the tokens, then it is as follows-

8.28 X 30% = 2.76 = $5.52 / 50% = $2.26 royalty

Now you can compare what you would get in relation to KDP

In my case my retail price is $4.95 with 3.50 royalty, so I would earn more in relation to Kindle without any deduction from a third-party token provider. However at 95,000 words Amazon convert that to 450 pages for page reads, and I earn only $1.98 for a full read.

Either way, if your kindle book is 4.99 retail or less, and the page read is high as a percentage of overall sales, then you will likely gain. It will all depend on what you are earning as a percentage of page reads are to allow for the token purchase deduction for the third-party supplier. and in my case it is running at 75% page reads. I would have to hope that more than 25% of readers would buy tokens direct from Vella.

So I Imagine if your retail price is $2.99, and with page read allocation of 350 to 400 pages, you'll definitely gain, but for me it will be tight. It also depends on Amazon not changing what they are currently showing as the cost of buying tokens. For those retailing full length work at 99c it is a no brainer, providing Vella can attract paying readers to a market that existing serial distributors charge nothing to the reader. If I were a new author, I would jump at it rather than KDP to test the waters and build a fan base.

EDIT: I also understand they are going to mark each as either ongoing, or complete, the same as Wattpad. Where would you spend your tokens?

If I have the math wrong, or my assumptions differ with yours ,let me know. Also at those figures, do you think it is worth it?


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## Indy Strange (Aug 29, 2019)

Decon said:


> The percentages don't really count, or the first 3 as free. What counts is the amount you get paid as a comparison to KDP. Also the difference of being a big fish in an initial small pond or the opposite via KDP. My recent post-apocalyptic-dystopian trilogy books are 95,000 words each @60 chapters, each at around 1600 words per chapter. As thrillers they are episodic anyway in the way each ends.
> 
> If I were to write something similar as a season of episodes for Vella and the first 3 were free. Then if someone read all the episodes, I would be paid for. 57 episodes, or 91,200 words. At 100 words per token, that's 912 tokens to read all the season's episodes.
> 
> ...


Times like these, I wish I was good at something besides writing because figuring out what I'm getting paid for stuff like this just feels so complicated. I don't particularly care how the the payment rate ends up with/without fees(yes, I'm terrible at business) because I just want a steady revenue stream that doesn't require as much effort as putting out a full book release. My crappy health would thank me for it, and it would ease my stress while working on multiple series for Indie and Traditional publishing.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I have not, to date, concerned myself with the math. I'm not choosing between "publishing this story I want to write as a book" and "publishing this book in episodes on Vella instead". It's "write a new story for Vella" or "don't write the story at all." I'm not reworking something I was going to write anyway. Once I found out the platform existed I thought about what kind of story I might write that would make sense for it, and then I started writing that.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

GeneDoucette said:


> I have not, to date, concerned myself with the math. I'm not choosing between "publishing this story I want to write as a book" and "publishing this book in episodes on Vella instead". It's "write a new story for Vella" or "don't write the story at all." I'm not reworking something I was going to write anyway. Once I found out the platform existed I thought about what kind of story I might write that would make sense for it, and then I started writing that.


I did the exact same thing. Tailor the story to the medium, I say.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Decon said:


> If I have the math wrong, or my assumptions differ with yours ,let me know. Also at those figures, do you think it is worth it?


Your math looks solid to me. There are a ton of variables here that none of us know. The audience for Vella could be vanishingly small, so nobody makes anything. It could be 10X KDP eventually, which means you have to be on it or miss out. That'll take years to sort itself out.

For now, there's a chance for discovery that a lot of authors might not feel they are getting elsewhere. For that reason alone, plus the fact that you can pull your work out and toss it into the vast sea that is KDP, it's worth considering.

One of the variables for me: I love new things! This project has me writing two WIPs that I wouldn't have tackled otherwise, and I'm loving writing them! I'm passionate about my work in the morning because of Vella. I mean, I just finished a novel two weeks ago and was going to take some time off. Instead, I've written another 80,000 words in two weeks, and I 100% credit Vella and this great big unknown for motivating that. What's that worth? It's priceless.

Another variable: I'm on KBoards again discussing the wild frontier of self-publishing. Would I be doing that without Vella? Maybe not. Is that worth anything? Only to me.

I've never let financial considerations guide all my writing decisions. It's always a factor, but one of many. I spent a lot of my writing years engaging with readers on Facebook and on my blog, simply because it motivated me and made me happy. Looking back, those interactions and efforts probably account for a decent percentage of my sales. Sometimes you've gotta do what keeps the passion up rather than make it all about the numbers. But that's just my $0.02.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

I agree Hugh... the novelty, the idea of getting in on the ground floor has converted me! I was developing a story and rethought it for this medium and wrote the first three episodes this weekend. I'm goin to write three more in the next couple of days (to make sure it has legs to go the distance) and then start posting. If it fails, I'm no worse off than if I put out a series normally and it tanked. So onward and upward.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I did the exact same thing. Tailor the story to the medium, I say.


I can't see how writing for Vella should be any different to writing a story for KDP, but then I write in the thriller subgenre style which relies on chapter endings that leave a cliffhanger or a strong question for the reader to turn the page. I have two WIPs, both at the mid-points. Having looked through the chapters, I can't see what I'd need to change for Vella. All I'll have to decide, is do I simply carry on to publish via KDP, or to choose the new medium, so the math is important to me..

On YouTube videos are springing up at a pace on the subject of Vella. One common theme seems to be assuming it will be a younger audience. They are saying that the genres that do well on the current distributors such as Wattpad and the others are dominated by *YA*, in romance, thriller, sci-fi, fantasy, and fan fiction. With that in mind, the only difference I would make to the way I write and craft a story, would be to have younger MCs. I still believe that the basics will be the same, especially for what you have to achieve in those first the chapters/episodes.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the difference is in writing a book in chapters and writing episodes? If anyone could enlighten me, I'd be interested to know.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't think you are misunderstanding anything. Dickens wrote his novels as serialized stories. The distinction would be for those whose storytelling doesn't fit that format. It's hard to imagine a Milan Kundera book being a serialized story. As you said, in many of those genres it fits. 

The concept has nuances, however. When I said that I was adapting my story, the only real shift was from a trilogy arc to a more open ended storytelling, where I can develop subplots further, letting them be the focus of many episodes and ensuring that I remember that the reader of one episode might not have just finished the last one... some time might have passed since she read it. Things like that. Having said all that, I guess I'll find out empirically if I'm right and that's half the fun.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm just excited to have something I CAN participate in, since I'm wide and not in KDP.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Decon said:


> Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the difference is in writing a book in chapters and writing episodes? If anyone could enlighten me, I'd be interested to know.


I can't speak for everyone, but for me so far the difference is huge. One of my projects is a collection of sailing adventures. It's a memoir told through near-death experiences. Each one is self-contained (or in 2-3 parts) and teases the next adventure in the "author notes" section. This author notes area is so damn cool, because you can really end the story on a high note, but then speak directly to the reader. That has caused me to write even my fiction WIP as if it's addressed directly to the reader. It feels intimate. Almost like a blog.

I also detail some of my publishing craziness with details I've never shared anywhere else before. I would probably not write a biography so out-of-order like this if it were in a book, but on Vella it feels natural. Each entry can have its own voice and theme, but the subject matter ties it all together.

Maybe it's because I'm doing all the writing within the Vella environment, rather than in Word. And that I'm writing specifically for this medium, but my current works are nothing like my previous novels, even the ones I serialized. They are 100% Vella creations, and they read differently as a result. But I don't know, that's just me. And these works might fail spectacularly. But that's always a risk.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I can't speak for everyone, but for me so far the difference is huge. One of my projects is a collection of sailing adventures. It's a memoir told through near-death experiences. Each one is self-contained (or in 2-3 parts) and teases the next adventure in the "author notes" section. This author notes area is so damn cool, because you can really end the story on a high note, but then speak directly to the reader. That has caused me to write even my fiction WIP as if it's addressed directly to the reader. It feels intimate. Almost like a blog.
> 
> I also detail some of my publishing craziness with details I've never shared anywhere else before. I would probably not write a biography so out-of-order like this if it were in a book, but on Vella it feels natural. Each entry can have its own voice and theme, but the subject matter ties it all together.
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm doing all the writing within the Vella environment, rather than in Word. And that I'm writing specifically for this medium, but my current works are nothing like my previous novels, even the ones I serialized. They are 100% Vella creations, and they read differently as a result. But I don't know, that's just me. And these works might fail spectacularly. But that's always a risk.


That sounds very interesting. I can see how different that would be. Thanks for sharing.

My only attempt at writing something as an experiment, completely different to what I, or anyone one else wrote for that matter I uploaded on Wattpad in 2017. Most of it is images with very short chapters, or a single image and in the YA genre. It wasn't something I couldn't have published in my pen name so I abandoned it.

Manor High: Safety Zone..


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## Indy Strange (Aug 29, 2019)

Decon said:


> I can't see how writing for Vella should be any different to writing a story for KDP, but then I write in the thriller subgenre style which relies on chapter endings that leave a cliffhanger or a strong question for the reader to turn the page. I have two WIPs, both at the mid-points. Having looked through the chapters, I can't see what I'd need to change for Vella. All I'll have to decide, is do I simply carry on to publish via KDP, or to choose the new medium, so the math is important to me..
> 
> On YouTube videos are springing up at a pace on the subject of Vella. One common theme seems to be assuming it will be a younger audience. They are saying that the genres that do well on the current distributors such as Wattpad and the others are dominated by *YA*, in romance, thriller, sci-fi, fantasy, and fan fiction. With that in mind, the only difference I would make to the way I write and craft a story, would be to have younger MCs. I still believe that the basics will be the same, especially for what you have to achieve in those first the chapters/episodes.
> 
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the difference is in writing a book in chapters and writing episodes? If anyone could enlighten me, I'd be interested to know.


You're not misunderstanding anything, I just think a lot of us will have all sorts of goals with Kindle Vella. I'm coming at this from someone who reads a bunch of online Chinese novels and used to roll with the Wattpad crowd. The atmosphere around serial writing is more fun for me, and the writer/reader interaction was a totally different experience versus regular publishing. 

If you get a decent amount of readers, the enthusiasm they have for each of your updates is infectious and a really nice confidence boost on days when you might doubt yourself. This was so relaxing and fun for me that I didn't mind posting on Wattpad for free until a health setback forced me to be more ruthless with my energy. Vella is reopening that avenue for me in a more practical manner, so I'm very laid back about it.

Also, my writing differs based on publishing goals:
Traditional Publishing - 50% Me/ 50% To Market
KDP - 75% Me/ 25% To Market
Online Serials - 100% Me/ Eff The Market


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> I can't speak for everyone, but for me so far the difference is huge. One of my projects is a collection of sailing adventures. It's a memoir told through near-death experiences. Each one is self-contained (or in 2-3 parts) and teases the next adventure in the "author notes" section. This author notes area is so damn cool, because you can really end the story on a high note, but then speak directly to the reader. That has caused me to write even my fiction WIP as if it's addressed directly to the reader. It feels intimate. Almost like a blog.
> 
> I also detail some of my publishing craziness with details I've never shared anywhere else before. I would probably not write a biography so out-of-order like this if it were in a book, but on Vella it feels natural. Each entry can have its own voice and theme, but the subject matter ties it all together.
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm doing all the writing within the Vella environment, rather than in Word. And that I'm writing specifically for this medium, but my current works are nothing like my previous novels, even the ones I serialized. They are 100% Vella creations, and they read differently as a result. But I don't know, that's just me. And these works might fail spectacularly. But that's always a risk.


That's one of the joys of a new format... we can each develop it, use it as it appeals to us, to do things we haven't done before, or think differently about what we have been doing. And the best part is that it will be readers deciding what works for them. 
It strikes me as a really win-win version of sink or swim!!


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## shel (May 14, 2011)

I've wanted to write this way for a very long time, so I'm committing to give it a try.


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## AaronFrale (Jun 15, 2016)

For me, the most exciting part of Vella is a chance to be there when they open the doors. I'm a teacher for my day job so I don't have gobs of money to throw at advertising my books. I'm hoping to be in an environment where I don't have to do that just to get noticed. The money situation is negligible for me, because if I was worried about getting paid, I would have stopped pursing writing long ago.

I'm also very excited about that Author Notes section. I have some breaking the fourth wall stuff planned for my stories. As a comedy writer, having a opportunity to mess with audience expectation is right up there with brown paper packages tied up with strings.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Decon said:


> Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the difference is in writing a book in chapters and writing episodes? If anyone could enlighten me, I'd be interested to know.


I don't think there's a correct way to do it. Your writing and story telling style will heavily impact the content. That said....
I'm modeling it after episodic television. Each installment has a defined 1st, 2nd, and 3rd act, told within the larger story arc. While I can make shorter episodes, again I think about how it would feel to watch a program I like, and get less than expected. I'd be pissed off. So I've set my own personal minimum. Two part episode, while certainly in-bounds, should be rare, special occasions that resolve key plot points. 
I focus on developing fewer characters, maintaining the readers attention on the MC and one or two secondary players. This enables me to keep a fast, steady pace without sacrificing character development. 
Episodes, from my perspective, trim the fat and keep the story moving along.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> I don't think there's a correct way to do it. Your writing and story telling style will heavily impact the content. That said....
> I'm modeling it after episodic television. Each installment has a defined 1st, 2nd, and 3rd act, told within the larger story arc. While I can make shorter episodes, again I think about how it would feel to watch a program I like, and get less than expected. I'd be pissed off. So I've set my own personal minimum. Two part episode, while certainly in-bounds, should be rare, special occasions that resolve key plot points.
> I focus on developing fewer characters, maintaining the readers attention on the MC and one or two secondary players. This enables me to keep a fast, steady pace without sacrificing character development.
> Episodes, from my perspective, trim the fat and keep the story moving along.


Brian,
I'm not entirely clear on the model you are describing. Since all we have are episodes, what are you calling installments? Is that like a season? A complete story within the larger series arc?
Terminology can be such a bugaboo, although I suspect I agree with you entirely.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

travelinged said:


> Brian,
> I'm not entirely clear on the model you are describing. Since all we have are episodes, what are you calling installments? Is that like a season? A complete story within the larger series arc?
> Terminology can be such a bugaboo, although I suspect I agree with you entirely.


Episode and installment are the same thing. Basically, my model is: each episode is a story with a definite beginning, middle, and end. While related to and in furtherance of the main plot, independent.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

travelinged said:


> Brian,
> I'm not entirely clear on the model you are describing. Since all we have are episodes, what are you calling installments? Is that like a season? A complete story within the larger series arc?
> Terminology can be such a bugaboo, although I suspect I agree with you entirely.


Also, yes. I'm breaking the main plot into Seasons with 10-12 episode each.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks. That sounds viable.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

I published an episode and have another on draft, but two things are not clear to me... I'm a little slow, I guess. Perhaps one or more of you clever people either has worked out what these are (or that they don't matter).

The first is just current events. Their email says the episode is going live. I thought Vella wasn't live for readers yet.Did I miss the go button announcement? I like that we can schedule the release, but until they give us a start date, it's difficult to use that. Which is why I left the second in draft.

Second. the email telling me what a good kid I was included this intriguing statement.
_**Kindle Vella stories are reviewed separately from episodes. Content reviews for your story and other episodes may impact the onsite availability of this episode.*_
So far I haven't seen anything about a Kindle Vella "story" as opposed to the collections of episodes. I thought the episodes comprised the story. Are they talking about the header information with the description and such? Why would anyone in their right mind review that?
Minor things, but they make my head hurt.


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

travelinged said:


> I published an episode and have another on draft, but two things are not clear to me... I'm a little slow, I guess. Perhaps one or more of you clever people either has worked out what these are (or that they don't matter).
> 
> The first is just current events. Their email says the episode is going live. I thought Vella wasn't live for readers yet.Did I miss the go button announcement? I like that we can schedule the release, but until they give us a start date, it's difficult to use that. Which is why I left the second in draft.
> 
> ...


The episodes are live, but still in beta mode. If you click the ASIN for the episode you'll go to the amazon/kindle-vella/xxxxx URL where it will be hosted for readers, but you'll get an Amazon dog with the message "Page not found." 

Second as per the content review, I had some experience with that. In my science fiction story, I started with the spaceship's name as Wayfinder. When Hugh Howey showed back up on Kboards, I realized his boat is named Wayfinder. So I felt compelled to change the name of my spaceship in all episodes in which it appeared, which was about six of them. 

When I did that, it triggered a review of everything. For a while, all episodes and the entire story were under review until the system could figure out what I did. Once everything was confirmed to be copasetic, the story went back to live status.


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## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

jaxonreed said:


> In my science fiction story, I started with the spaceship's name as Wayfinder. When Hugh Howey showed back up on Kboards, I realized his boat is named Wayfinder. So I felt compelled to change the name of my spaceship in all episodes in which it appeared, which was about six of them.


Really? What another writer named his boat and what you name your fictional spaceship seem completely unrelated.


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

Nick G said:


> Really? What another writer named his boat and what you name your fictional spaceship seem completely unrelated.


Yup. The point is, replacing that one word in six episodes triggered a story-wide review.


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## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

I got you. That wasn't the part I'm stuck on. My point was why kiss the ring? Maybe that's not how you meant it, but that's how it read. As far as I know he hasn't run off to trademark Wayfinder like Michael-Scott Earle tried with Dragon Slayer. The word is free for all.


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

Nick G said:


> I got you. That wasn't the part I'm stuck on. My point was why kiss the ring? Maybe that's not how you meant it, but that's how it read. As far as I know he hasn't run off to trademark Wayfinder like Michael-Scott Earle tried with Dragon Slayer. The word is free for all.


I didn't see it as "kissing the ring" so much as a desire not to have a ship that could be easily identified with something in the real world. Presumably at least some of my readers would be familiar with his boat's name, and I did not want them making the association. 

It's a personal choice. I've seen authors go the other way. Martelle for instance named one of his villains after Michael Anderle in his Free Trader series. But in this instance, I decided a different name for the ship would be best. I wanted something unique and not associated with an existing ship that people might be aware of.


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## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

jaxonreed said:


> It's a personal choice. I've seen authors go the other way. Martelle for instance named one of his villains after Michael Anderle in his Free Trader series.


That's really funny. I would be way more hesitant to do something like that.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

That's funny. I'm the same way about naming boats in real life. Once I've heard it's been used, I try to find something else. I named my first boat Xerxes because I was pretty sure no one else was dumb enough to name their boat after a guy who hated the ocean.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

jaxonreed said:


> The episodes are live, but still in beta mode. If you click the ASIN for the episode you'll go to the amazon/kindle-vella/xxxxx URL where it will be hosted for readers, but you'll get an Amazon dog with the message "Page not found."
> 
> Second as per the content review, I had some experience with that. In my science fiction story, I started with the spaceship's name as Wayfinder. When Hugh Howey showed back up on Kboards, I realized his boat is named Wayfinder. So I felt compelled to change the name of my spaceship in all episodes in which it appeared, which was about six of them.
> 
> When I did that, it triggered a review of everything. For a while, all episodes and the entire story were under review until the system could figure out what I did. Once everything was confirmed to be copasetic, the story went back to live status.


Thanks. When it said "reviewed" I thought they meant reader reviews not the content review process. See how powerful words are? Leave out the word "powerful" and Traveling Ed gets all confused.

The boat I lived on for ten years was a WWII Harbour Defence Motor Launch (HDML 1001) we named Float Street. The name had a weird evolution and meant a lot to us but I doubt anyone else would want to use that name. I was writing a column on living on board in the Caribbean for CARIBBEAN COMPASS and called it Float Street Notes. When I started self publishing we incorporated Float Street Enterprises, LLC. All of which shows that some names stick even if they aren't clever!


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Just hit "publish" on my 20th and final episode of my first project. Total word count ended up being 75,000 words. Now on to the next one!


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> Just hit "publish" on my 20th and final episode of my first project. Total word count ended up being 75,000 words. Now on to the next one!


I was rereading James Scott Bell's book on how to write short stories and, in the section on serials, he quotes you:
"I think it's a bad idea to just chop up a novel. Each work needs to satisfy on it's own." 
That book was published in 2017!!
Finally, we get to find out how these things actually work in an Amazon laboratory (probably located in the Mojave Desert).


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

travelinged said:


> I was rereading James Scott Bell's book on how to write short stories and, in the section on serials, he quotes you:
> "I think it's a bad idea to just chop up a novel. Each work needs to satisfy on it's own."
> That book was published in 2017!!
> Finally, we get to find out how these things actually work in an Amazon laboratory (probably located in the Mojave Desert).


Ha! Yeah, I still believe this. I can't think of a single one of my books that I would split up to launch on Vella. Most of what I serialized in the past came in too large of chunks made up of multiple chapters each. First time I've written anything like this, and now the question is whether the sum would even make a decent novel if I combined it all. Guess we'll have our answers by the end of the year!


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> Ha! Yeah, I still believe this. I can't think of a single one of my books that I would split up to launch on Vella. Most of what I serialized in the past came in too large of chunks made up of multiple chapters each. First time I've written anything like this, and now the question is whether the sum would even make a decent novel if I combined it all. Guess we'll have our answers by the end of the year!


I think that standalone pieces that cling together somehow definitely works. And yet... I know that serialized novels have a long a successful history. The issue will be twofold-- 1) have readers gone off that sort of thing because television episodes tend to be (but aren't always) complete stories? and 2) will new readers have the attention span to digest a story over time.

I'm experimenting in the other camp. My story is basically a novel idea written as a serial. It presents me with a number of challenges in terms of holding reader attention since it is multiple POVs. I think that since they alternate, I need to ensure the publishing schedule is fairly quick, maybe publishing two at a time. It's just a grand experiment and loads of fun!

If it doesn't work, I have an idea for a series of stories that are independent but connected, a la Twilight Zone, Essentially each is a short story. If I get production on the novel steady I might try that as well.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

travelinged said:


> I'm experimenting in the other camp. My story is basically a novel idea written as a serial. It presents me with a number of challenges in terms of holding reader attention since it is multiple POVs. I think that since they alternate, I need to ensure the publishing schedule is fairly quick, maybe publishing two at a time. It's just a grand experiment and loads of fun!


For my Vella project, I think multiple POV's would have served the story better, but I decided to stick with a single one instead because I feel like that will work better with the serialized format. I'm curious though how others will do with multiple POV's. Let us know how it goes?


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## thearchduke (May 18, 2021)

How are people handling editing? I'm trying to get at least a few episodes done before going live (maybe with 3 different stories) and while I'll self-edit I'm a little worried about the lack of professional editing. Do you all think readers will be more lenient with the quality of Vella stories vs. novels?


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

thearchduke said:


> How are people handling editing? I'm trying to get at least a few episodes done before going live (maybe with 3 different stories) and while I'll self-edit I'm a little worried about the lack of professional editing. Do you all think readers will be more lenient with the quality of Vella stories vs. novels?


They're more lenient on Wattpad and webnovel sites, so I'm guessing they will be with Vella as well.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Ha! Yeah, I still believe this. I can't think of a single one of my books that I would split up to launch on Vella. Most of what I serialized in the past came in too large of chunks made up of multiple chapters each. First time I've written anything like this, and now the question is whether the sum would even make a decent novel if I combined it all. Guess we'll have our answers by the end of the year!


I could do it with every one of mine. I guess it's down to genre in how the chapters are crafted..


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

ASG said:


> They're more lenient on Wattpad and webnovel sites, so I'm guessing they will be with Vella as well.





thearchduke said:


> How are people handling editing? I'm trying to get at least a few episodes done before going live (maybe with 3 different stories) and while I'll self-edit I'm a little worried about the lack of professional editing. Do you all think readers will be more lenient with the quality of Vella stories vs. novels?


I've been over to Wattpad these past few days to see if it's changed and it hasn't to any great extent. 99% of the works are self-edited 1st drafts..

Wattpad works completely differently as to how I hope Vella is to work. By far the majority of authors taking part on there are of school age, and that's both readers and authors. There are also many authors on there with English clearly used as their second language. And many more who it appears that English could be a second language as far as grammar is concerned. Many simply do not have a grasp as yet as how to craft a story down to paragraph level. I'm not knocking it as it works for them more like a writers' site with the authors looking for crit, which is why I've put work on there.

There are serious authors on there who use it to write WIP and there are some serious readers, but they are hard come by. Marketing consists of reading others work, making a comment and giving a star, then sending a message asking them what they think of yours. Those with the most stars get most visibility, so that part of it is a game, but the cream does rise to the top as genuine readers notice them in the charts and sample them. By far the majority are YA, in whatever genre style.

As you build up followers, they are notified when you upload another chapter as will Vella. No one talks in terms of episodes. but upload chapters of what will eventually be a book. Wattpad make a note of completed works differentiated by WIPs and readers tend to gravitate to completed works. I understand Vella are to highlight if a work is completed or not.

If those younger authors post work on Vella, it will drag down the level of quality.

What we have to remind ourselves is that these other sites are free, so the expectations will be lower. Only when a completed book is chosen to be put forward by Wattpad to be offered as a paid book after having millions of likes, are books edited. The big difference with Vella is that everything will be paid content.

My opinion, but I believe it will be the same as Wattpad, in that readers will gravitate to complete works, especially are they are having to pay for content.

We really must not kid ourselves there is anything special about crafting these so called episodes..

As regards Vella speak for episodes, seasons, serials etc, there is no difference in crafting for most, it is just Amazon using the terms to try and make it a new medium to stand out. On the whole, what will be uploaded will be chapters with cliffhangers of what will be eventually full books, with beginnings, middles, and ends, even if a new unanswered question is left in the case of serials.

I'm not knocking Vella, on the contrary, I might give it a go.

Stands back and waits for opposing views.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Decon said:


> As regards Vella speak for episodes, seasons, serials etc, there is no difference in crafting for most, it is just Amazon using the terms to try and make it a new medium to stand out. On the whole, what will be uploaded will be chapters with cliffhangers of what will be eventually full books, with beginnings, middles, and ends, even if a new unanswered question is left in the case of serials.


That's certainly how I'm building my project.

It's kind of ironic because my main series (in KDP) is structured more like a serial, while my Vella series is more like a novel cut into pieces... not sure if it's the right approach, but I feel it's what the story needs. So I guess we'll see.

It's all still very experimental at this stage anyway.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Irony is important in storytelling.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

thearchduke said:


> How are people handling editing? I'm trying to get at least a few episodes done before going live (maybe with 3 different stories) and while I'll self-edit I'm a little worried about the lack of professional editing. Do you all think readers will be more lenient with the quality of Vella stories vs. novels?


Copy editors and proof readers usually charge by the word. So editing should run you about the same.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm thinking the same think about single POV. I dug out an ancient treatment a from my screenwriting days. It's a solid six episodes with cliffhangers, so I may try putting on Vella. Sorta YA or NA romance, depending on how it's written. The characters were written as 18 but they could be 15-19. I like the idea of writing something that isn't super streamy but I'm not sure I can actually do it...


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I wouldn't be adverse to writing multiple POVs in separate episodes/chapters. It could have it's advantages as it does anyway in some stories with sublots that effect the MC, and the overall plot. Especially if there is a World view as to events. Think in terms of The Game of Thrones and many others that have ended up as seasons of TV series, or as films . These additional POV scenes would be a useful tool if they were powerful enough for the reader to want to plough on to get to find out how they develop,. It's all down to the story you want to write.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Crystal_ said:


> I'm thinking the same think about single POV. I dug out an ancient treatment a from my screenwriting days. It's a solid six episodes with cliffhangers, so I may try putting on Vella. Sorta YA or NA romance, depending on how it's written. The characters were written as 18 but they could be 15-19. I like the idea of writing something that isn't super streamy but I'm not sure I can actually do it...


That sounds like a plan. Would you rework the script to give it a narrative , or upload it as a script?


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Decon said:


> That sounds like a plan. Would you rework the script to give it a narrative , or upload it as a script?


This one is a treatment--basically an outline. I'm hoping I can write it pretty quickly, but we will see. I'm not good at following outlines now, but I'm hoping the shorter length makes it possible. I can always repackage a romance novella later. It might not be a big seller in the future, but it will fit into my catalog.

I do have an old screenplay I might Vella-fy (similar YA romance vibes), but it would need some thorough overhauls. It's not particularly cinematic, but it would need tweaks to fit the novel format/YA expectations. (It's a little too plot focused, not enough romance).

I've thought about novelizing it for awhile, so this could be an interesting change. I would absolutely novelize it. Screenplays aren't very reader friendly.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Probably a script would be even harder to read in the mobile app format they are using.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

thearchduke said:


> How are people handling editing? I'm trying to get at least a few episodes done before going live (maybe with 3 different stories) and while I'll self-edit I'm a little worried about the lack of professional editing. Do you all think readers will be more lenient with the quality of Vella stories vs. novels?


I don't know how similar the readership will be here vs in China and Korea, but what's been successful overseas has been authors who pour out 3,000 - 5,000 words per day without worrying about every little typo. The mobile bestsellers that took those markets by storm had an informal, rough feel to them. Then again, they had two-way communication, so avid fans were helping with the editing.

I spoke with someone yesterday who is a huge reader in these markets (reads mostly in Chinese), and he had some incredible insights into what works and what doesn't (for him and for those markets). Some of the top books there would go on for 9 - 18 months with episodes added daily! It's not what I was expecting to hear at all.

He also said the series were similar to manga, in that the POV would jump between characters. There was no rush to get to the end of the story or drive the plot on rails. Rather to explore the world and the relationships. On one of the major apps, you can vote on which characters you like the best, and the author will often feature those characters more. And there is a friendly but competitive vibe among the top authors who bounce around the leaderboards, which creates a game-like atmosphere among the fans and the authors.

I came away from our hour-long conversation with so many of my assumptions scrambled. But ... this market will be different. It's just that none of us can guess how different and in which ways.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> I don't know how similar the readership will be here vs in China and Korea, but what's been successful overseas has been authors who pour out 3,000 - 5,000 words per day without worrying about every little typo. The mobile bestsellers that took those markets by storm had an informal, rough feel to them. Then again, they had two-way communication, so avid fans were helping with the editing.
> 
> I spoke with someone yesterday who is a huge reader in these markets (reads mostly in Chinese), and he had some incredible insights into what works and what doesn't (for him and for those markets). Some of the top books there would go on for 9 - 18 months with episodes added daily! It's not what I was expecting to hear at all.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Maybe I need to schedule a POV jump sooner than I planned.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

That's more or less what I was angling for, hoping for, that you suck readers into an endless story, as the soaps did.
I just need to work harder on making each episode dramatic so they will stick with me.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Whenever someone downplays the distractibility of typos I wonder if they've seen my unproofed work, especially pre revision. There are a lot of typos... A lot. I'm a bad typist and a worse proofreader. And I'm not alone.

Big difference between a few typos and what my first pass, no edits, scenes look like.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Sure, but a pass through Grammerly or ProWriting Aid will resolve a lot of those for you in minutes.


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## Ross Harrison (May 5, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> On one of the major apps, you can vote on which characters you like the best, and the author will often feature those characters more. And there is a friendly but competitive vibe among the top authors who bounce around the leaderboards, which creates a game-like atmosphere among the fans and the authors.


I quite like the sound of that, though I imagine it's the kind of environment that you can easily get left behind in if you don't put out episodes as quickly as others. I'd also be worried about asking for votes and getting only tumbleweed. That's why I don't try to run polls or anything on Twitter - no one's interested and I look unpopular (which I am, but that's not the point!). But seems like a fun thing to be involved in if you can put out that amount of work consistently.


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## thearchduke (May 18, 2021)

travelinged said:


> Sure, but a pass through Grammerly or ProWriting Aid will resolve a lot of those for you in minutes.


I don't usually use Grammerly, but that is a very good idea.


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## thearchduke (May 18, 2021)

Hugh Howey said:


> I don't know how similar the readership will be here vs in China and Korea, but what's been successful overseas has been authors who pour out 3,000 - 5,000 words per day without worrying about every little typo. The mobile bestsellers that took those markets by storm had an informal, rough feel to them. Then again, they had two-way communication, so avid fans were helping with the editing.
> 
> I spoke with someone yesterday who is a huge reader in these markets (reads mostly in Chinese), and he had some incredible insights into what works and what doesn't (for him and for those markets). Some of the top books there would go on for 9 - 18 months with episodes added daily! It's not what I was expecting to hear at all.
> 
> ...


It's similar to fanfiction - building community and anticipation, gaining followers as the story unravels, getting feedback. That's why I'm not sure putting up a completed work is the best idea. There's no way to gain momentum if someone can read it in one binge. Letting people know you'll be uploading new episodes every day or week, and sticking to it, while engaging in the author's tag by responding to people who Liked or Faved the previous chapters feels more organic.

I'm planning to: Thank people who liked/faved, put out bonus chapters at milestones like 20 likes or favs or subscribers, tease what's upcoming ("who wants more of character X? because the next chapter will be a big one for them!), stuff like that. 

I'm also ready to change my outline if people want more X or more Y. Is that pandering? Maybe, but if it means more people liking my work then I'll pander away. I also picked ideas that can be easier changed, or go on tangents with or close abruptly depending on demand.

I'm seeing this as less of Amazon trying a new publishing format, but of Amazon dipping their toes into social media. Engagement with readers will be key for success (I think, who really knows.)


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Hugh Howey said:


> I spoke with someone yesterday who is a huge reader in these markets (reads mostly in Chinese), and he had some incredible insights into what works and what doesn't (for him and for those markets). Some of the top books there would go on for 9 - 18 months with episodes added daily! It's not what I was expecting to hear at all.


Now you know why I'm aiming for 240 episodes  That's probably even short in terms of what those markets typically put out. My idea though is to follow that with three sequels of 240 episodes each, assuming the first one is successful.

My main issue is that I don't think I can do daily episodes, unless I have them all written beforehand... but that, of course, would also go against the format.

I'm planning to release 6 a month, so that might work against me.



Hugh Howey said:


> He also said the series were similar to manga, in that the POV would jump between characters.


Aha! Now THIS is interesting. Means I could do multiple POV's after all. Hmm. Might have to rethink my concept.

Thanks for all this info!


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

The info from the link below is worth reading. It still remains to be seen if the Western market will mimic the Eastern Asian market, and take us back to the Victorian days of serials, but one can only hope it takes off. Not sure if the info on a falling e-book market is correct as the post is from Radish. Anyway, worth a read. It's sort of more in depth info backing up what Hugh has posted. Reading between the lines it seems to be saying it will be a younger audience seeking content. We need to possibly bear that in mind with the age of characters, leaning to YA.

One thing though. If it's all about that new episode, what about the point where you have maybe a hundred. Will the earlier ones lose interest for new readers?

Radish's take on the serial market.

There is also a link to a Forbes article on the subject in the Radish one but I'll it it here.

Forbes.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

thearchduke said:


> It's similar to fanfiction - building community and anticipation, gaining followers as the story unravels, getting feedback. That's why I'm not sure putting up a completed work is the best idea. There's no way to gain momentum if someone can read it in one binge. Letting people know you'll be uploading new episodes every day or week, and sticking to it, while engaging in the author's tag by responding to people who Liked or Faved the previous chapters feels more organic.
> 
> I'm planning to: Thank people who liked/faved, put out bonus chapters at milestones like 20 likes or favs or subscribers, tease what's upcoming ("who wants more of character X? because the next chapter will be a big one for them!), stuff like that.
> 
> ...


I thought I read that engagement is different for Vella, readers can like, and we can write author notes, but there's no comments... or am I making shit up? I'm social media averse but if they're going to do it they might as well really do it. Without comments, I feel like engagement is pretty limited.

And I don't trust the wisdom of the crowd. I'm not judging anyone for tailoring their story to what vocal people want, but I don't see myself ever doing that if I get around to Vella down the line. I see it as a slippery slope creatively to blur that boundary with readers. And while it's hard to discern what your readers prefer as it is, I don't think defaulting to what a % say they want is a more viable option. Maybe I'm being too closed-minded about it, but that's my gut reaction.

I think if I was reading something, and I told the author how I thought it should end, and I got exactly what I wanted, I'd be disappointed somehow.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Hugh Howey said:


> There was no rush to get to the end of the story or drive the plot on rails. Rather to explore the world and the relationships.


That's how I'm approaching this. Not really like a novel, but a soap opera, with small story arcs within a larger, more open-ended narrative. I dusted off a project I was working on that I think would fit Vella and what I hope will be the reader demographic - a progression fantasy set in a secondary world, with the two main protagonists starting from basically nothing and slowly over the course of the serial developing their powers and exploring the world, with a larger meta plot finally crystallizing down the line - but I'm not so worried about setting up that overarching conflict like I would a novel.

I guess I'm worried that Amazon won't be able to drive / entice readers to the platform. It's a format that's really popular with young readers, but how will they get them to leave Webnovel or Royal Road, which may be cheaper / free? What is Amazon bringing that differentiates it from the established competition? If Amazon is more expensive (likely) will the readers be willing to pay a premium?

I guess I'm hoping that they are aggressive in handing out coins, and are willing to take a loss for a while to get the readers to come over.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

If anyone is not sure how to write successful episodic series, while the following are not modern, they started out published as separate episodes, later to be published as books or made into films. It might be better for some to take a look rather than dive in.

Bonfires of Vanity. episodes published in the Rolling Stone magazine. Published as a paperback over 600 pages, and as a film
Charles Dickens, The Pickwick papers 850 pages
Uncle Toms Cabin.

I imagine such as Game of Thrones and Harry Potter would lend themselves to episodes.

If anyone knows of any modern ones that started out serialized in episodes, please list them.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Decon said:


> If anyone is not sure how to write successful episodic series, while the following are not modern, they started out published as separate episodes, later to be published as books or made into films. It might be better for some to take a look rather than dive in.
> 
> Bonfires of Vanity. episodes published in the Rolling Stone magazine. Published as a paperback over 600 pages, and as a film
> Charles Dickens, The Pickwick papers
> ...


The question is whether Amazon is trying to attract the young crowd that already reads Webnovels, or bring this style of consumption to a different audience. If it's the former, you should look to the incredibly popular webserials already out there. Here's Worm, several million words of a young girl becoming a superhero.









Worm


A Complete Web Serial




parahumans.wordpress.com





There's also The Wandering Inn, about a fantasy-style inn and the monsters and heroes that frequent it. 8 million words at this point, I believe?









The Wandering Inn


A tale of a girl, an inn, and a world full of levels.




wanderinginn.com





Or you can check out the translated Chinese WuXia stories (Chinese fantasy, basically), like I Shall Seal the Heavens

Now, if Amazon is trying to attract older readers who have never tried webserials before, I have no idea what kind of stories they will like. But traditionally the most popular webserials I know of have been fantasy stories. If Amazon tries to steal the Webnovel / Royal Road / Worm crowd, then fantasy - particularly Xianxia, Progression, LitRPG, Cultivation, Superhero, etc - will be most relevant.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Decon said:


> If anyone is not sure how to write successful episodic series, while the following are not modern, they started out published as separate episodes, later to be published as books or made into films. It might be better for some to take a look rather than dive in.
> 
> Bonfires of Vanity. episodes published in the Rolling Stone magazine. Published as a paperback over 600 pages, and as a film
> Charles Dickens, The Pickwick papers 850 pages
> ...


Didn't The Martian begin as a Reddit thread?


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## thearchduke (May 18, 2021)

Decon said:


> If anyone is not sure how to write successful episodic series, while the following are not modern, they started out published as separate episodes, later to be published as books or made into films. It might be better for some to take a look rather than dive in.
> 
> Bonfires of Vanity. episodes published in the Rolling Stone magazine. Published as a paperback over 600 pages, and as a film
> Charles Dickens, The Pickwick papers 850 pages
> ...


Armistead Maupin wrote Tales of the City as a column in a newspaper in San Fransisco. There's a netflix movie about him, and after a successful series of books, with movies and tv shows based on them, he said he didn't make a lot of money and lived in the same rental for 30 some years. It was actually quite sad. But then maybe he just wasn't very good with money, who knows.


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## AaronFrale (Jun 15, 2016)

So what is everyone's plan for release? Have as much content up there? Or have the recommended 5-10 episodes then set up a regular publishing schedule?

My thought is if I have the entire story up, people read it, then it gets crushed under shear amount of new content.

Whereas if I have 10 episodes on release, then pace myself, one a week, I always remain in the new release bucket.

I got 90k words, first five are up, the second set of 5 came back from the editor this morning. By the time that third set of 5 comes back, I'll need to decide if I'm going to Netflix it and dump all the content or pace with weekly installments. Curious what others are planning.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

AaronFrale said:


> So what is everyone's plan for release? Have as much content up there? Or have the recommended 5-10 episodes then set up a regular publishing schedule?
> 
> My thought is if I have the entire story up, people read it, then it gets crushed under shear amount of new content.
> 
> ...


I'm going to try both. A complete series of 20 episodes, and then also launch with 10 episodes and do a twice-weekly release schedule. That way anyone who gets hooked on the ongoing story has a complete story to go binge read. And anyone who enjoys the complete story has an ongoing to look forward to.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm going to try both. A complete series of 20 episodes, and then also launch with 10 episodes and do a twice-weekly release schedule. That way anyone who gets hooked on the ongoing story has a complete story to go binge read. And anyone who enjoys the complete story has an ongoing to look forward to.


I'm thinking the same kind of diversification. I've got the the first four of an ongoing crime stories (convoluted and intertwined) uploaded and looking at doing another where more standalone stories are tied together thematically and with characters.
I'm surprised at how much fun I'm having playing with this.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm going to try both. A complete series of 20 episodes, and then also launch with 10 episodes and do a twice-weekly release schedule. That way anyone who gets hooked on the ongoing story has a complete story to go binge read. And anyone who enjoys the complete story has an ongoing to look forward to.


I only have one story to play with and only a limited amount of time to work on it per week. I have ten episodes loaded already, but as an aggregate, I think the combined word count is in the 15,000 range, so I'm submitting smaller individual episodes than you are. I anticipate being capable of writing one to two 1.5k entries per week at the very best. After this ten, I'll bank another ten (I hope) and leave them in draft until this launches and then schedule them to come out 1-2 times a week.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

GeneDoucette said:


> I only have one story to play with and only a limited amount of time to work on it per week. I have ten episodes loaded already, but as an aggregate, I think the combined word count is in the 15,000 range, so I'm submitting smaller individual episodes than you are. I anticipate being capable of writing one to two 1.5k entries per week at the very best. After this ten, I'll bank another ten (I hope) and leave them in draft until this launches and then schedule them to come out 1-2 times a week.


That sounds like a good strategy, having enough for the launch and more to start a flow after that. Gives you a little slack. I wish we knew the launch date so I'd know how many it would comfortable to have in draft.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

GeneDoucette said:


> I only have one story to play with and only a limited amount of time to work on it per week. I have ten episodes loaded already, but as an aggregate, I think the combined word count is in the 15,000 range, so I'm submitting smaller individual episodes than you are. I anticipate being capable of writing one to two 1.5k entries per week at the very best. After this ten, I'll bank another ten (I hope) and leave them in draft until this launches and then schedule them to come out 1-2 times a week.


I'm the same with what I have. I have 20 episodes at an average of 1500 words but mine will be a complete season of around 60 episodes as a trial, then if it doesn't work I can publish it as a book. I'd try it out in the same way as Hugh, by say uploading 10 episodes,, then weekly episodes If it looks as though only completed works are garnering interest and traction, then I'll upload it all. Saying that, I'm working on the assumption that they'll put it out for authors in other countries, by the time it is complete. If not I'll go ahead and publish on Amazon and start something else. when they open it up outside the US..


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

AaronFrale said:


> So what is everyone's plan for release? Have as much content up there? Or have the recommended 5-10 episodes then set up a regular publishing schedule?
> 
> My thought is if I have the entire story up, people read it, then it gets crushed under shear amount of new content.
> 
> ...


My plan is to release 4 or 5 episodes at launch, then schedule the rest with one episode a week, plus an extra one every other week. At least, that was my initial plan, but I might make some changes. Need to think on this some more.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

GeneDoucette said:


> Didn't The Martian begin as a Reddit thread?


It did. Not sure if it was reddit, but 50 Shades of Gray started out serialized. Individual books in the Harry Potter series could have been serialized in the way the chapters were crafted.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

ASG said:


> My plan is to release 4 or 5 episodes at launch, then schedule the rest with one episode a week, plus an extra one every other week. At least, that was my initial plan, but I might make some changes. Need to think on this some more.


It will be interesting to see what publication pace is needed to get and hold readers' attention. Once a week sounds good, but I wonder how patient they will be. It's all guesswork and the fun will be trial and error. I'm going to upload episode 5 today. Most of mine are are 2-3 k. I could easily do one a week, I suspect, especially if I have them queued up.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Decon said:


> It did. Not sure if it was reddit, but 50 Shades of Gray started out serialized


I read that he posted it on his website in installments, letting reader feedback help him refine it.
And 50 Shades was originally a fanfic serial. (Twilight)


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

AlecHutson said:


> The question is whether Amazon is trying to attract the young crowd that already reads Webnovels, or bring this style of consumption to a different audience. If it's the former, you should look to the incredibly popular webserials already out there. Here's Worm, several million words of a young girl becoming a superhero.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really appreciate the links.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

travelinged said:


> It will be interesting to see what publication pace is needed to get and hold readers' attention. Once a week sounds good, but I wonder how patient they will be. It's all guesswork and the fun will be trial and error. I'm going to upload episode 5 today. Most of mine are are 2-3 k. I could easily do one a week, I suspect, especially if I have them queued up.


My chapters are currently in the 800-1200 range, though this too might change. I can do three of those a day, which is why I was aiming for 6 a month. I could do more, but daily releases would be tough.


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## AaronFrale (Jun 15, 2016)

Definitely some food for thought. Since I have two storylines ready for launch day maybe I'll dump all I have for one, and pace the other. I have a third in the back of my mind, but being a full-time teacher, dad, etc. allows me for only so much writing in the week. So hopefully, I'll have three, with a varied amount of episodes.


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

My last two 10 book series were written as serials, so this is not that big a transition.


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## Indy Strange (Aug 29, 2019)

My goal is one complete story from my fairy tales, a third posted of the second story in that series with daily updates afterwards, and daily uploads starting from the beginning of a yet to be determined story that will only have an outline written. I want readers to know I can finish a story while also leaving myself room to have fun.

Edited to add: It just occurred to me that I'm doing a Goldilocks and the Three Bears approach to this.


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## Nick G (Sep 21, 2018)

Bite the Dusty said:


> I thought I read that engagement is different for Vella, readers can like, and we can write author notes, but there's no comments... or am I making shit up? I'm social media averse but if they're going to do it they might as well really do it. Without comments, I feel like engagement is pretty limited.


Does anyone know if this is true? I'm not seeing anything about comments when I'm looking over what Amazon has shared so far.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

But look how it's working out for Game of Thrones readers. Does anyone really believe GRR Martin is going to publish the last book? I don't know any who do.

Some people will do best writing as they go. Some will do best writing first, then publishing. I wouldn't want random readers intruding with their thoughts every episode.

Writing is kind of like parenting. You can't always give readers what they want, or what they think they want. Sometimes you have to give them what they need or what they don't realize they want.

Readers want characters to be happy and solve their problems easily, but that makes for a boring story.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Crystal_ said:


> I wouldn't want random readers intruding with their thoughts every episode.
> 
> Writing is kind of like parenting. You can't always give readers what they want, or what they think they want. Sometimes you have to give them what they need or what they don't realize they want.


Not sure if you can reply to comments in the way you can with say Wattpad? I don't even know if they can comment, only star? I believe you will be able to as the say they break the barrier that is there between author and reader that is the rule for books on Amazon.

As Hugh has said and also various articles, (sic)many episodes are written as 1st drafts, with many having to be cleaned up when published as a book because of the pace they are written and published. I don't think you have to engage with any comments left, though I have on Wattpad if they were useful as a thank you. I've just looked at something I have on Wattpad where they can comment on every paragraph. It's quite rewarding when I noticed one singled out a paragraph and said they loved the way it was written, when I'D had my doubts it was over written.

Others that have followed me when I have uploaded a chapter per day until they had read the full book before I took it down for editing and publishing have provided useful insights. Some pointed out typos for me, or sections they found awkward. Or say a problem with continuity I'd overlooked, which was great, because I could go back in and edit for those who followed on. It's like having Beta readers. No one ever told me what to write because I didn't ask. Any comments you can take from it what you find useful and disregard what isn't. I think to get people to say the direction the story should go, or what characters they want to hear more of, you would need to ask at the end of an episode, or maybe have followers join you by saying you are open to ideas on say your blog, but that is all optional. You don't have to do it that way if you don't want to engage.

As an example of engagement, if you were writing say writing hard science fiction, then the science is important, so engagement with those who know what they are talking about when you get it wrong and it's pointed out can work well for you if you engage and thank them. I imagine those sort of mistakes would simply get you a 1 star on Amazon, and the read abandoned, whereas a thank you for pointing out the error, and saying you've made changes might just get them to read on and give their expertise where required if the story was sound in other ways. Same with say crime procedures, or legal thrillers where you get the legalities or procedures wrong. Or say mistakenly saying someone switched on the safety on a Glock 19 when the safety is in the trigger action etc etc. But like I said, I'm not sure if they can only star and like and not comment?.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

Crystal_ said:


> But look how it's working out for Game of Thrones readers. Does anyone really believe GRR Martin is going to publish the last book? I don't know any who do.
> 
> Some people will do best writing as they go. Some will do best writing first, then publishing. *I wouldn't want random readers intruding with their thoughts every episode.*
> 
> ...


100% agree with this and your reasoning, but I feel like that aspect of Vella is being discussed as a selling point.

We're still in the speculation phase with Vella. I'm not sure if they're really going to be lenient on unpolished work, or how engagement will be measured beyond liking/voting, but I remember Lost and Sherlock and the online speculation and discussion between viewers (it was half the fun), so I understand why this environment appeals to writers. It breeds superfans.

But if Amazon is nullifying the methods of other serial platforms and it's just a like/notification/author note, I don't know if that's really going to do the trick, and that would affect how I look at the opportunity of publishing there down the line if I had an idea I thought would be a fit.

Comments or no comments, I still think writers should write their story their way.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I understand that some wouldn't want the sort of engagement that would involve replying to comments on every episode, but reading articles on successful published authors such as Mark Dawson, engagement is part and parcel of their building of reader loyalty readership and maintaining a fan base. Engagement takes many forms, from newsletters, to blog posts, replying to emails, or comments on your blog, etc. If Vella provides an alternative to one for those that wish to engage, it's all to the good for those that wish take advantage. Personally, I found it rewarding replying to comments on chapters I had at one time on Wattpad, even it was a simple thank you for taking the time. If all they have is a simple thumbs-up, it would maybe suffice for the commenter to know the author had acknowledged the time taken to give the author their thoughts..


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Decon said:


> I understand that some wouldn't want the sort of engagement that would involve replying to comments on every episode, but reading articles on successful published authors such as Mark Dawson, engagement is part and parcel of their building of reader loyalty readership and maintaining a fan base. Engagement takes many forms, from newsletters, to blog posts, replying to emails, or comments on your blog, etc. If Vella provides an alternative to one for those that wish to engage, it's all to the good for those that wish take advantage. Personally, I found it rewarding replying to comments on chapters I had at one time on Wattpad, even it was a simple thank you for taking the time. If all they have is a simple thumbs-up, it would maybe suffice for the commenter to know the author had acknowledged the time taken to give the author their thoughts..


Definitely. It's like on YouTube. If you post a comment on a video and the poster replies, it's a nice feeling. It's nice to know that the poster (or author, in the case of Vella) read what you wrote and took the time to respond, even if just to say thank you.


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## scott.marmorstein (May 26, 2015)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm going to play around with this, as serialization has been enjoyable for me in the past. What are you all planning?
> 
> I'm going to do one non-fiction and three fiction stories to start with. I'll have an end in sight for the two fiction pieces but leave the non-fiction open-ended.
> 
> My thinking here is not to worry about the length of the works as much as the number of readers you might be able to draw in to finish a few shorter pieces. It all depends on how popular the platform becomes with readers. Worst case scenario, I workshop a few WIPs that get moved to KDP / CreateSpace when I'm done with them.


I just published part of (an episode, I guess they call it) a novella I was working on. It says its "live" now but of course I can't see it anywhere. I figured I would give it a shot because, well, I have nothing to lose, and I'm curious to see what (if any) sort of luck I'll have with it.


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## AaronFrale (Jun 15, 2016)

I found out something new today. They will not let you change the title of your Vella Episodes. I attempted to change the title and it got blocked in content review, so I am changing it back. But the good news is instead of blocking you and spending weeks to get it fixed, it now says "action required" and allows you to edit. Perhaps my three weeks back and forth with customer service did provide meaningful change.

To recap for those just joining the conversation:

You cannot swap the order of your stories, or change the titles. Small edits seem to be okay. Like if I make a grammar correction, change the line of a character, etc.


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## Copterslider (May 28, 2021)

They're more lenient on Wattpad and webnovel sites, so I'm guessing they will be with Vella as well. 
[size=0.5pt]*ข่าวฟุตบอล*


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## MMSN (Feb 27, 2019)

If an author wants my *money* in Vella, they had darn well better publish a first rate polished work for it. It's not comparable to Wattpad in my opinion.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

MMSN said:


> If an author wants my *money* in Vella, they had darn well better publish a first rate polished work for it. It's not comparable to Wattpad in my opinion.


The beauty is that you can read the first three episodes of any story for free. So it's up to the author to prove their worth.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

I would assume that it will evolve as KU and everything else has. Different groups of readers will accept different kinds of stories AND differing ideas of quality. Given some of the bad editing in books from major publishers, some readers don't care as much as others and we will always be bemoaning: "How does he/she sell so many books with such rotten characters/plotting/editing?" Sturgeon's law prevails in that 90% of everything is shit. Worrying about what quality control other authors use isn't unproductive. I'm trying to put a good foot forward with my launch and assume everyone will do the same. Then the readers will tell us if it was good enough.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Did everyone see the new Vella guidelines from Amazon? A lot of the fears expressed in this thread are handled here.






KDP Community







www.kdpcommunity.com





Turns out you can now publish your Vella stories as books on KDP and elsewhere as long as you wait 30 days! That's huge. And not a long time to wait (enough time to do some edits, get some cover art, prep for publication).

I could easily see Vella becoming a workflow for every new novel I write. Workshop and build advance reader hype on Vella, and then do further revisions and repackage for KDP or for publishers after. Sounds like Amazon was listening to people who were worried about being stuck on the Vella platform. There's almost no reason _not_ to publish a work on Vella now.


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## Need More Coffee (Apr 17, 2021)

Hugh Howey said:


> Did everyone see the new Vella guidelines from Amazon? A lot of the fears expressed in this thread are handled here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does this mean the reverse as well, that works already published on KDP can now also be publishing on Vella?


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## AgnesWebb (Jan 13, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> Did everyone see the new Vella guidelines from Amazon? A lot of the fears expressed in this thread are handled here.
> 
> Turns out you can now publish your Vella stories as books on KDP and elsewhere as long as you wait 30 days! That's huge. And not a long time to wait (enough time to do some edits, get some cover art, prep for publication).


This is a game changer. Fan-freaking-tastic! Getting so excited.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> Did everyone see the new Vella guidelines from Amazon? A lot of the fears expressed in this thread are handled here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can see it as becoming a part of the workflow for _some_ of what I write, but it would have to be A: something new (not a second or third book in a series) and B: something I'm not planning to bring to a traditional publisher. I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing a Vella edition of a story would make anything after that a reprint in the eyes of a publisher.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Need More Coffee said:


> Does this mean the reverse as well, that works already published on KDP can now also be publishing on Vella?


An existing novel can't be broken down into chapters and re-published on Vella. 

However, I believe that existing serialized works from other paid services *can *be uploaded to Vella. As long as they aren't being offered as FREE anywhere.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

GeneDoucette said:


> I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing a Vella edition of a story would make anything after that a reprint in the eyes of a publisher.


It likely would, but that's down to how each publisher feels that week. This has never been a concern of mine, going back to day 1 of my career. Publishers have never seemed to care. The ones who do, I wouldn't want to get into business with anyway.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm not eligible living in Europe., but I have three books that might go on Vella. It's a question of chicken and egg. One is a male detective thriller story that's currently at the midpoint. The second is a crime thriller with a female author as the MC, also at the midpoint. The third is new and Dystopian , but it's only 4 chapters/episodes into the story. For the midpoints, both are at around 45k words just now and 30 chapter/episodes.

When I say it's chicken and egg, I wont have the patience to hang around if any are completed before Vella is opened up to other territories and I'll publish them via KDP.

i have covers for the two thrillers, but not the dystopian story, which is the most likely the one that will end up on Vella. The episodes/chapters on that one are coming in at around 2,300 each, which are 1k longer than I usually write.

I only ever write chapters with cliffhangers or question/problems to solve anyway, so what I write should suit serialization.


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## Need More Coffee (Apr 17, 2021)

For the writers who already have work on Vella, I'd be very interested in hearing about your experiences with the launch.


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## SRoze (Jul 13, 2021)

New to the forums. Hi. Now that that's out of the way, I have something available on Vella, but I don't see an area to view any statistics. It's not on the KDP reports, nor on the KDP Beta reports. I don't see it in the Vella Library either.


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

SRoze said:


> New to the forums. Hi. Now that that's out of the way, I have something available on Vella, but I don't see an area to view any statistics. It's not on the KDP reports, nor on the KDP Beta reports. I don't see it in the Vella Library either.


It hasn't officially launched yet, although it's been rolling out all day today. According to KDPSam on the KDP discussion boards, it will show on the Kindle Vella Dashboard in the KDP Reports Beta. 






KDP Community







www.kdpcommunity.com


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## Anna Rose (Jan 13, 2019)

I just did this morning! Posted the first two chapters, then I plan to release a new one every Tuesday.


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## SRoze (Jul 13, 2021)

jaxonreed said:


> It hasn't officially launched yet, although it's been rolling out all day today. According to KDPSam on the KDP discussion boards, it will show on the Kindle Vella Dashboard in the KDP Reports Beta.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, nice. I hope that is relatively soon. I don't suspect my Vella work will do very well compared to some others, but I'm confident it at least got something. We'll see. Wonder when the Vella reports will be available precisely. Maybe tomorrow or the day after.


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## jaglionpress (Oct 5, 2016)

2 episodes, 3rd scheduled for Thursday (wouldn't let me release it sooner than that). Trying to write episode 4 and 5.


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

Here's a tip. If you're having difficulty searching for your story to get the link, try this. Go to the story details page where you publish your episodes. Each episode has an assigned ASIN, and it's an active link to take you directly to the episode. Click any one of them to open the episode, and you'll see the title of your story which is actually a link to the story's page on the Vella site. There you can get the ASIN for the story itself and the url to use as a link in your promotion of the story.


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