# Question for Take Off Your Pants outlining



## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

Okay. I read the book that everyone recommends- Take Off Your Pants. It was great! I'm inspired! Totally ready to go! 

Only now I'm sitting at my keyboard saying wait- what?

Apparently, I'm a visual learner. I need a flow chart or a poster or something just to remind me of what I'm supposed to do. Has anyone created something like that as a study aid for themselves and would be willing to share?


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## Lehane (Apr 7, 2014)

I would actually love to see this as well. I loved the book but I have an extremely hard time visualizing the triangle thing in my own head.


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## Elliott Webber (Sep 24, 2015)

The first time I used her methods I wrote the important stuff down on a pad.

Then I made myself a little template in word where I just fill in the stuff I need.

Now after a few books I pretty much just write down short descriptions for every chapter and keep the rest of it in my head. 

I'd suggest making a template that works for you. That way you can just copy it when you need one for the next book. It's very useful


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## Randi (Oct 21, 2014)

Oh good - it's not just me!


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## SasgoraBooks (Aug 27, 2015)

I took extensive notes in my notebook while I read the book, for me if I write it down it sticks in the brain better than just reading it. Also I can quickly go through my notes much faster than paging back through the book. I also setup my manuscript in Scrivener with the whole outline like this:










As you can see I made a page for each parts 1, 2, 3, 5, Flaw, Ally, Theme. Part 4 is the plot headings, so I made 4 a folder and a page inside for each plot heading.


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## HN Wake (Feb 24, 2015)

DarkarNights said:


> I also setup my manuscript in Scrivener with the whole outline like this:


*Laughsnorts* This is EXACTLY what my Scrivener outline looked like as well.


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

DarkarNights said:


> I took extensive notes in my notebook while I read the book, for me if I write it down it sticks in the brain better than just reading it. Also I can quickly go through my notes much faster than paging back through the book. I also setup my manuscript in Scrivener with the whole outline like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! That is an awesome way to use Scrivener. That's exactly why I bought the program but I hadn't quite been able to picture how to set it up. Do you begin with this same template for every book and then fill in your specifics, or do you find you have to outline on paper first and then tweak what cards you put in Scrivener?

I've decided to create a cheat sheet template. I think that's what I was looking for and not finding in the book. The Pocohantas story outline helped me understand the way each element works, but I need a cheat sheet, too! I'm rereading the chapters and putting a sentence or two to define each thing so I can look at it and remember that, oh, right, the ally is the person who has the power to put the main character back on the right path... the theme should be a one sentence statement to conceptualize the basic point of the story...


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I don't take off my pants, I keep them sort of at knee height 

I make a list of chapter numbers say 1 to 40. Then next to the number I make up a chapter title forty times. Then under the chapter title I write a single sentence. Something like "ASN Odyssey battle in orbit of Faragut".

Once I have a sentence for each chapter, I turn it into a paragraph. "ASN Odyssey battle in orbit of Faragut. Damaged and under fire, unable to do anything but die bravely, Captain Powell ushers in a new interstellar war with the Merkiaari. Show battle, show consequences of her destruction. Leave Merkiaari victorious."

I do that sort of thing for all forty chapters, and half way through realise some chapters need to be deleted, changed, or combined. When I have something like a list of paragraph long waypoints, I print it out and keep it on the couch beside me as I start writing.

Job done... yeah right 

Months later... editing, re-writing, beta readers, publish... profit??


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2015)

I opened the book, followed the process where she said to begin, ignored the parts that I didn't feel were relevant for what I wanted to do, and then saved the template I created for future books.  

I didn't find it all that difficult.  But . . . maybe that's just me.


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> I opened the book, followed the process where she said to begin, ignored the parts that I didn't feel were relevant for what I wanted to do, and then saved the template I created for future books.
> 
> I didn't find it all that difficult. But . . . maybe that's just me.


I started by reading the book for the theory but didn't have a particular story of my own in mind to start outlining. I think that's why my visualization and/or memory is failing me. What I was hoping to find at the end of the book was a summary page, like an outline template with one sentence definitions to act as a cheat sheet for starting a new project. But since there wasn't one, I'm making it now so I can print it out and tack it next to my computer for quick reference.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Heh heh... I think the paperback edition (this month, I promise) will be helpful for this. Easier to flip back and look at it that way, I guess?

Anyway, here's how it's laid out in the book, but please remember to stay FLEXIBLE with your drives for the goal, attacks, etc. You don't need to have this many drive/attack/failure sequences, or you can have more. Or you can mix them up and re-arrange the order of these steps. (This is why I've always hesitated to put out a "template"--not only because it'll encourage people to just pirate it and not buy my book, and Libbie gotta get paid, son--but because I don't want people to think this sequence is set in stone. It's not! Stay flexible!)

Remember to take things logically, not sequentially. As the book stresses, you don't fill in this outline in sequential order--you fill it out in a _logical_ order, starting with your character's flaw, then working from there to determine other points of the story. Jump around. Fill in parts of the story as they arise logically from whatever you've just puzzled out. The sequential layout will help you stay organized once it's all filled in and you're actually writing, but you'll drive yourself crazy if you try to fill it out from top to bottom. 

*edit*


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Nicole Carlson said:


> I started by reading the book for the theory but didn't have a particular story of my own in mind to start outlining. I think that's why my visualization and/or memory is failing me. What I was hoping to find at the end of the book was a summary page, like an outline template with one sentence definitions to act as a cheat sheet for starting a new project. But since there wasn't one, I'm making it now so I can print it out and tack it next to my computer for quick reference.


Also, there is a chapter in the book called "A Sketched-In Outline" that shows it all put together.


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> Also, there is a chapter in the book called "A Sketched-In Outline" that shows it all put together.


Thanks! I'm checking my template against the one in the book to make sure I have everything included. The task now is just to get from the completed example in the book to one that replaces the Pocohantas-specific stuff with my favorite sentence or two from each chapter so I can remind myself what the heck I'm supposed to do at each step.

And that Scrivener screenshot is a thing of beauty. I needed a picture to make my brain understand how I was going to take the information from the book and incorporate it into my writing process- something that probably should have been obvious but just wasn't clicking until I saw that.


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## mel p (Oct 22, 2014)

I loved this book and it really makes sense, but I so WISH that you could print out pages from ebooks! I re-typed the plot outline also, so I could refer to it when actually writing. BUT, I just got Scrivener and I am still figuring this program out, so thank you so much for showing us that screen shot! It will help with the visualization.

Don't worry Libby, you're book offers a lot more than just the outline. If people are too cheap to buy the book, they are REALLY missing out!


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## Nicole M (Nov 1, 2012)

What I did was bookmark around the 77% mark where she writes "A Sketched In Outline" And just base my outline off of it. Let me take this opportunity to thank Libbie Hawker for helping me out so much with this book! I'm having a bit of trouble with the antagonist attacks and the Thwart moments within my romance novel, but I'm sure I'll figure it out. My only qualm with it (and can anyone clear this up?) is that I don't believe the antagonist needs to want the same thing the protagonist does. In romance, this certainly isn't always the case. But maybe I misunderstood the concept.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Nichole Moreno said:


> What I did was bookmark around the 77% mark where she writes "A Sketched In Outline" And just base my outline off of it. Let me take this opportunity to thank Libbie Hawker for helping me out so much with this book! I'm having a bit of trouble with the antagonist attacks and the Thwart moments within my romance novel, but I'm sure I'll figure it out. My only qualm with it (and can anyone clear this up?) is that I don't believe the antagonist needs to want the same thing the protagonist does. In romance, this certainly isn't always the case. But maybe I misunderstood the concept.


(My T key is not working great today, so I apologize for any missing Ts.)

Keep in mind (and this is something I'll stress even more in the revised edition) TOYP is not intended to illustrate the "only" way to structure a plot. There are tons of great novels out there that don't follow the same pattern. TOYP is a tool to help you plan out a book that will be fast and easy to write, and will feel compelling to the reader and satisfying a the end. Is it the only way to make a compelling story? Of course not! It's just a way for you to get through a book or two or ten quickly so you can meet a tight deadline or build up a backlist fast. It's a tool to help you evaluate whether a book will be worth sinking time into before you write it. It's no the be-all/end-all of story structure. (There isn't one of those.  )


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

Nichole Moreno said:


> I'm having a bit of trouble with the antagonist attacks and the Thwart moments within my romance novel, but I'm sure I'll figure it out.


This has given me some trouble, too. I've been thinking about ways that the "antagonist" can be something other than a real person, and that is helping for right now. Here's my example (please let me know what you think!):

In a nutshell, my MC, whose internal flaw is not always telling the truth, inadvertently is mistaken by a potential match on an internet dating site as being very different from who she actually is. Instead of coming clean when the two unexpectedly meet in real life, she lies, saying she is a "friend" of her dating-site persona, who she claims had to leave town for a while. She wants to win over this romantic match herself but doesn't think it's possible, so she continues to correspond via email as if she is the fake persona. Obviously, the only way to really win her heart's desire is to tell the whole truth regardless of the consequences.

In this scenario, I'm wondering if the fake persona could actually be the antagonist, because every time my MC comes close to winning over the love interest, the existence of this fake persona thwarts her success. In this case, my MC could literally be her own worst enemy.


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## Nicole M (Nov 1, 2012)

ElHawk said:


> (My T key is not working great today, so I apologize for any missing Ts.)
> 
> Keep in mind (and this is something I'll stress even more in the revised edition) TOYP is not intended to illustrate the "only" way to structure a plot. There are tons of great novels out there that don't follow the same pattern. TOYP is a tool to help you plan out a book that will be fast and easy to write, and will feel compelling to the reader and satisfying a the end. Is it the only way to make a compelling story? Of course not! It's just a way for you to get through a book or two or ten quickly so you can meet a tight deadline or build up a backlist fast. It's a tool to help you evaluate whether a book will be worth sinking time into before you write it. It's no the be-all/end-all of story structure. (There isn't one of those.  )


Thank you! Your book has really been a great help. It made me realize I had to restructure my whole novel and it's made me overall more enthusiastic to write. I'm still outlining but we'll see if my word count goes up !


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I have honest to God never known how people would know what would be a chapter until it was written. This is not a criticism of outlining but rather an expression of admiration of people who can do that. I never have a clue whether a scene will be long enough to be a chapter until the words are on the 'paper'.  

ETA: Although I can visualize the story in my head and always do before I start writing, so maybe that counts as kinda outlining. I always know where the story is going and the main elements, but planning in that detail to know what goes in chapter 20 before I've written chapter one...I can't even wrap my poor head around it. Kudos to anyone who can. (Yes, I recently wrote my first mystery with what I have been told is a 'complicated' plot without outlining   )

I know that doesn't really relate but I always go: Wow, how do they do that? lol


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## DashaGLogan (Jan 30, 2014)

If I have to make an outline for something with a complicated plot (usually I can watch my novels like a movie in my head), but with some stuff it's necessary, I will use a large poster with sticky notes in different colours. I love to move things around with my hands like a puzzle and I don't want to waste my eyesight on the screen too much. What I also like a cardboard cards, to be stapled and worked off one after the other. I used to do that for my university thesis and it works for fiction too.

EDIT: I'm rather more interested in key/anchor scenes than chapters. Those come quite naturally. I usually know all the highlights and cliffhangers and I work myself towards them.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I have a question for Libby too. Can I put it in this thread?

In a romance novel, that has very little except the two main characters - would the other person be the ally or the antagonist?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> I have honest to God never known how people would know what would be a chapter until it was written. This is not a criticism of outlining but rather an expression of admiration of people who can do that. I never have a clue whether a scene will be long enough to be a chapter until the words are on the 'paper'.


Dunno if it helps, but I keep it simple by making each scene a chapter. So if I have a scene that has to accomplish some goal, once the goal is hit, I move on to the next scene/chapter.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2015)

mel p said:


> Don't worry Libby, you're book offers a lot more than just the outline. If people are too cheap to buy the book, they are REALLY missing out!


THIS.

Libbie took the time to research and develop an excellent book. Buy the book and read the book if you're truly serious about learning her method. I realize Libbie was being nice by including the outline in this thread, but I think she should remove it.


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> THIS.
> 
> Libbie took the time to research and develop an excellent book. Buy the book and read the book if you're truly serious about learning her method. I realize Libbie was being nice by including the outline in this thread, but I think she should remove it.


Yes- buy the book! It is absolutely worth the $2.99, which would barely buy you a cup of coffee anyway. The outline is just a small part of it. The discussion and examples are essential to understanding how to make it flexible (but thank you for the outline above, because that's exactly what I was trying to recreate with limited success).

I have Truby's book, too, which this book references- but Libbie's book is more user friendly.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> I have honest to God never known how people would know what would be a chapter until it was written. This is not a criticism of outlining but rather an expression of admiration of people who can do that. I never have a clue whether a scene will be long enough to be a chapter until the words are on the 'paper'.
> 
> ETA: Although I can visualize the story in my head and always do before I start writing, so maybe that counts as kinda outlining. I always know where the story is going and the main elements, but planning in that detail to know what goes in chapter 20 before I've written chapter one...I can't even wrap my poor head around it. Kudos to anyone who can. (Yes, I recently wrote my first mystery with what I have been told is a 'complicated' plot without outlining  )
> 
> I know that doesn't really relate but I always go: Wow, how do they do that? lol


Yup. I'm the exact same way. I usually never know what's going to happen until I'm writing out the scene or whatever. I couldn't outline a book to save my life. Guess my mind just doesn't run like that. As much as I would like to become a plotter, I just haven't been able to. Oh, well. If it ain't broke, don't fix it....


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2015)

Nicole Carlson said:


> I have Truby's book, too, which this book references- but Libbie's book is more user friendly.


I "closed" Truby's book midway. Preachy and not user-friendly. Glad I read Libbie's first.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Evenstar said:


> I have a question for Libby too. Can I put it in this thread?
> 
> In a romance novel, that has very little except the two main characters - would the other person be the ally or the antagonist?


In my reading of many a romance novel, I've found that the other main character is often both the antagonist and the ally to the other main character. They antagonize and ally with each other.  That's what makes the "Will they or won't they?!" so much fun!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Jolie du Pre said:


> THIS.
> 
> Libbie took the time to research and develop an excellent book. Buy the book and read the book if you're truly serious about learning her method. I realize Libbie was being nice by including the outline in this thread, but I think she should remove it.


I will after I go for my run. That'll give the OP enough time to copy it and save it.

Y'all, my ebook is hella cheap. Be a pal and buy it if you're interested in learning my outlining method! I'll thank you sincerely in my heart. Also, if you just use the outline I stuck in this thread but don't understand how to piece it all together, you'll find yourself bedeviled by questions for which you have no answer.  Bwahahahaha.


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## SasgoraBooks (Aug 27, 2015)

HN Wake said:


> *Laughsnorts* This is EXACTLY what my Scrivener outline looked like as well.


 



Nicole Carlson said:


> Nice! That is an awesome way to use Scrivener. That's exactly why I bought the program but I hadn't quite been able to picture how to set it up. Do you begin with this same template for every book and then fill in your specifics, or do you find you have to outline on paper first and then tweak what cards you put in Scrivener?
> 
> I've decided to create a cheat sheet template. I think that's what I was looking for and not finding in the book. The Pocohantas story outline helped me understand the way each element works, but I need a cheat sheet, too! I'm rereading the chapters and putting a sentence or two to define each thing so I can look at it and remember that, oh, right, the ally is the person who has the power to put the main character back on the right path... the theme should be a one sentence statement to conceptualize the basic point of the story...


This is my first novel I'm working on and my first time using the TOYP method. I'm going to fill everthing in right into Scrivener. I have the Outline as a separate folder in the left panel from the Manuscript folder. The beauty of Scrivener is everything is fluid, I can pick up a scene from the outline and move it straight into the Manuscript at any point.


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## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

I've read both excellent books (as well as Gotta Read It).

I'd done most of the plotting of my WIP when I read those, but here are my "Hawker" outlines:










I swing back and forth on how much to emphasize the character's flaw and the theme of the book. I don't want to hit the readers over the head with them, but they're in there.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

JR, I visualize my stories as well. I tried for a very long time to write down everything and make it a usable outline, but frankly, after that I didn't care to write the story anymore.   So, I read DWS's posts on writing into the dark, changed up the way I'd been working, and I'm much happier now.

I still "know" how the story goes and at least some of the major points, but I discover the many ways it gets there as the words flow out. If I get a particular bit of info, I'll make a note of it, or sometimes just write the scene if it's really vivid and pushing to be written, but that's about it. I don't fear forgetting something "important" to the story anymore (because my memory sucks), but trust my subconscious to get me where I need to go.

But, from what I've seen, Libbie's book is awesome for plotting stuff out (and I'm impressed by that Scrivener shot!), and if it works for anyone, then they should hit it with both feet and get those books written. Moooaaar boooooooks gooooood.

Whatever works for you, mate. No right. No wrong.


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm re-reading this book this week in preparation for NaNoWriMo.

I've got the first quarter of the book pretty well outlined.

I don't REALLY know if I am doing it exactly the way that Libby worked out - but the book is great inspiration and it is REALLY hitting home this second time around.


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## LinaG (Jun 18, 2012)

Nicole Carlson said:


> This has given me some trouble, too. I've been thinking about ways that the "antagonist" can be something other than a real person, and that is helping for right now. Here's my example (please let me know what you think!):
> 
> In a nutshell, my MC, whose internal flaw is not always telling the truth, inadvertently is mistaken by a potential match on an internet dating site as being very different from who she actually is. Instead of coming clean when the two unexpectedly meet in real life, she lies, saying she is a "friend" of her dating-site persona, who she claims had to leave town for a while. She wants to win over this romantic match herself but doesn't think it's possible, so she continues to correspond via email as if she is the fake persona. Obviously, the only way to really win her heart's desire is to tell the whole truth regardless of the consequences.
> 
> In this scenario, I'm wondering if the fake persona could actually be the antagonist, because every time my MC comes close to winning over the love interest, the existence of this fake persona thwarts her success. In this case, my MC could literally be her own worst enemy.


Nicole--
I think what you have here is the romantic comedy classic "secrets and lies" kind of plot where the heroine is an "imposter." She's 'lying' about lying because 'who wants to date a liar?' (It sounds totally awesome by the way.)

It sounds to me that she herself, not the fake profile, is her own antagonist. I don't think that her 'flaw' is not always telling the truth though. It sounds to me that the thing holding her back and thwarting her is her worldview. Even if she created the online profile as a lark, there is probably some underlying self-esteem issue, right? She doesn't feel she is good enough to date this man.

A person without a self esteem issue might decide to meet the guy and say something like, "I had to come to tell you in person and apoligize..." and then if attracted to him or whatever, try to work their charms on him. If the guy storms off, well who wants a guy with a temper? If you haven't see the movie THE TRUTH ABOUT CATS AND DOGS, you should give it a look. An innocent lie hits a self esteem nerve in that plot and it is masterfully done.

Another possible flaw is that she's assuming the guy would never be interested in her. She has no idea what he's really like, she's making judgements about him based on his dating profile. In this case she is still the antagonist.

I wonder who the ally is? I'll bet that character will be important!

Just my thoughts. Plotting romantic comedy can be a real brain buster. Libbie's book helped me distill my thoughts (such as they are)!

Li


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> *edit*


guess I missed something! 

count me among those that has no clue what is going to happen until I'm actually writing, but I picked up Libbie's book shortly after it came out. I've always been a pantser but I'm determined to try to learn outlining (hoping it will allow me to crank out more content) . Still haven't read much of it (sorry Libbie!) but I'll be heading out on vacation next month and am planning on tackling it!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Okay -- a lot of people asked me to update on Kboards when the revised edition is out. It's out now. The print edition is waiting for  Createspace to approve it. Enjoy!


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

I liked "Pants" as well, but it was very much centered on character. As a recovering screenwriter, I am still more centered on the premise and build the story (and hero) from that. My plot guide Plot Machine, lacks a flow chart but it sort of presented as a flow chart of step. If anyone knows of a program that helps create flow-charts I'm happy to add one to the guidebook.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> Okay -- a lot of people asked me to update on Kboards when the revised edition is out. It's out now. The print edition is waiting for Createspace to approve it. Enjoy!


what got changed?


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

mel p said:


> I loved this book and it really makes sense, but I so WISH that you could print out pages from ebooks! I re-typed the plot outline also, so I could refer to it when actually writing. BUT, I just got Scrivener and I am still figuring this program out, so thank you so much for showing us that screen shot! It will help with the visualization.


You can retrieve highlights from your Kindle book and download them into Evernote (or just copy and paste the text if you don't use Evernote, but by using Evernote you can follow links back to the page itself):

https://blog.evernote.com/blog/2015/03/25/how-to-save-kindle-highlights-and-notes-into-evernote/

I do this a lot with research books. So for TOYP if you highlighted the relevant parts (including her wonderful descriptions of each section) you could create an outline without having to retype it.

Which of course I totally forgot to do, so my Scrivener looks just like those in the above comments. I think there's some learning value, though, in retyping/rewriting material--it crams it further into your brain if you have to manually take notes rather than copying and pasting.

Also, am I the only one who wishes it was called Take Your Pants Off so the acronym would be TYPO?  (And so that it would match the Blink-182 song intro.)


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> Okay -- a lot of people asked me to update on Kboards when the revised edition is out. It's out now. The print edition is waiting for Createspace to approve it. Enjoy!


Any idea if you can get Amazon to give it a push so people who already bought the book can download the revised edition?


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Deke said:


> I liked "Pants" as well, but it was very much centered on character. As a recovering screenwriter, I am still more centered on the premise and build the story (and hero) from that. My plot guide Plot Machine, lacks a flow chart but it sort of presented as a flow chart of step. If anyone knows of a program that helps create flow-charts I'm happy to add one to the guidebook.


It sounds like the Sterling & Stone guys are putting together an app called StoryShop. They talked about it on their most recent SPP episode. I think it had flow chart type features... or they want to put them in? I can't remember all the specifics off the top of my head, but it's probably worth listening to their recent episodes to glean tidbits of info about it. I didn't get the impression that the app is out yet, but it sounds really interesting. I want to check it out when it drops.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

KL_Phelps said:


> what got changed?


Added a chapter about various ways to plot series and clarified a whole lot of points people struggled with.

Also, to be honest, I did add in a paragraph telling people that they really don't need to seek my approval on anything they want to do with their plots.  Somehow folks got the idea that I'm the last word on story construction, and I am SOOOOOO not! Almost every day since I first published TOYP, I've had people emailing me to basically ask my permission to do X, Y, or Z with their stories. I am not nearly interesting or badass enough to be the official green-lighter of all plot points!  (I also added a brief passage letting people know that I would not critique their outlines or "fix" their plot issues for them. I can't tell you how many requests to do just that I received, either. Holy mackerel, folks! I've got books of my own to write!)



AveryCockburn said:


> Also, am I the only one who wishes it was called Take Your Pants Off so the acronym would be TYPO?  (And so that it would match the Blink-182 song intro.)


Ha ha! Are you from the UK or Australia/NZ? I received this input from a lot of non-North American readers. I think it's a usage thingy. Take Your Pants Off sounds all wrong to me, but I'm a 'MURRICAN! *insert crying eagle picture here*


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> Added a chapter about various ways to plot series and clarified a whole lot of points people struggled with.
> 
> Also, to be honest, I did add in a paragraph telling people that they really don't need to seek my approval on anything they want to do with their plots.  Somehow folks got the idea that I'm the last word on story construction, and I am SOOOOOO not! Almost every day since I first published TOYP, I've had people emailing me to basically ask my permission to do X, Y, or Z with their stories. I am not nearly interesting or bad*ss enough to be the official green-lighter of all plot points!  (I also added a brief passage letting people know that I would not critique their outlines or "fix" their plot issues for them. I can't tell you how many requests to do just that I received, either. Holy mackerel, folks! I've got books of my own to write!)


I think a lot of people are used to outlining books/strategies as being more set in stone, whereas yours is more loosey goosey, so to speak? It's taken me a long time (and a lot of rough draft outlines) to figure out how to switch things around and make them work, but I can see why people would worry over whether they were destroying the integrity of their outline. xD

I'm very interested in the way to plot series! Awesome.


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## mel p (Oct 22, 2014)

AveryCockburn said:


> You can retrieve highlights from your Kindle book and download them into Evernote (or just copy and paste the text if you don't use Evernote, but by using Evernote you can follow links back to the page itself):
> 
> https://blog.evernote.com/blog/2015/03/25/how-to-save-kindle-highlights-and-notes-into-evernote/
> 
> ...


Thanks Avery! I don't use Evernote, but I will certainly check this out! Also, TYPO is pretty hysterical. And, unfortunately, I make llots of htem!


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> Also, to be honest, I did add in a paragraph telling people that they really don't need to seek my approval on anything they want to do with their plots.  Somehow folks got the idea that I'm the last word on story construction, and I am SOOOOOO not! Almost every day since I first published TOYP, I've had people emailing me to basically ask my permission to do X, Y, or Z with their stories. I am not nearly interesting or bad*ss enough to be the official green-lighter of all plot points!  (I also added a brief passage letting people know that I would not critique their outlines or "fix" their plot issues for them. I can't tell you how many requests to do just that I received, either. Holy mackerel, folks! I've got books of my own to write!)


This is incredible, but I'm not surprised. So many authors want to be spoon fed.


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

If you already bought TOYP [ebook], how do you get Amazon to update your copy to the new version?

I still have the old cover in the ebook I have and I don't see a new chapter.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

The idea of a workflow goes back to "Plotto" which was basically a book filled with snippets of plots and a mix-and-match process of assembling a story. Doesn't an app like that already exist?


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> It sounds like the Sterling & Stone guys are putting together an app called StoryShop. They talked about it on their most recent SPP episode. I think it had flow chart type features... or they want to put them in? I can't remember all the specifics off the top of my head, but it's probably worth listening to their recent episodes to glean tidbits of info about it. I didn't get the impression that the app is out yet, but it sounds really interesting. I want to check it out when it drops.


Alas, nope it isn't out yet. They are launching a Kickstarter for it, I want to say in the next week or two? They said they are only doing it if it gets funded since, if it isn't funded they will see that as a sign there isn't' enough demand.

They did a Q&A episode about it. The YouTube version has screenshots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4fdPjgwf_8 



, but I haven't listened to it yet.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Chrissy said:


> If you already bought TOYP [ebook], how do you get Amazon to update your copy to the new version?
> 
> I still have the old cover in the ebook I have and I don't see a new chapter.


Hmmm... I'm not sure. I know there is a way to do it, though. Let me look into it and get back to you.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

I read TOYP a while ago, and would recommend it to someone really troubled by outlines. It's a good method that not only helps you with plot but the important stuff that gets left out of a lot of indie work--realistic motivations, emotions and character reactions. 

I haven't used it to outline, because the method I've used for a while works fine for me. I write down in a sentence or so what needs to happen every scene or chapter, and what it causes/how it makes the characters feel. Sometimes I even pants it for a while. But if I were looking for a method of outlining, especially for something complex, I'd give it a try. 

I listened to the S&S podcast about StoryShop, and maybe I'm just not an app girl, but I didn't find it exciting or anything. Then again, my outlines are some sentences, my series bibles are handwritten, and I write in Google Docs or Word.   The simple life for me.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2015)

I do a combination of 8 point 8rc, 60 scene, I and 3 act (but adjusted, because 3 act can be boring if you use the whole 3rd act for resolution). I basically have an adjustable form I fill out using that. Which has worked for me with all of my books except for 1, as I got stuck between the characters story (which fit in the 60 scenes perfectly) and what the story needs to DO to move the series forward (which didn't have a clear place to be worked in, at least not to me). I ended up hiring a woman named Mary Novak to help me sort that part out.  I often create these outlines for my writing partner who can write a book in 30-60 days that way that requires minimal (if any) rewrites. Just made another one last night  I'm curious about this book mentioned, though. I've been eyeing it. I just don't know if I can divorce myself from my current method. Then again, I think having lots of methods for plotting is great <3


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

mel p said:


> Thanks Avery! I don't use Evernote, but I will certainly check this out! Also, TYPO is pretty hysterical. And, unfortunately, I make llots of htem!


You're welcome! The day I discovered I could actually assemble all those Kindle highlights and notes in one place was the day I vowed to never buy another print nonfiction book again.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2015)

If I remember correct, Libbie you'll have to email KDP support and get them to mark it as an update because of major changes to the book.  Then anyone with auto updates on will be updated automatically.  The rest will be prompted, I think, or will get the updated if they redownload.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Anma Natsu said:


> If I remember correct, Libbie you'll have to email KDP support and get them to mark it as an update because of major changes to the book. Then anyone with auto updates on will be updated automatically. The rest will be prompted, I think, or will get the updated if they redownload.


AH!! Thank you. I'll give that a try.

I guess folks can always return the old one and buy the new one in the meantime. It's the same price.


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> I do a combination of *8 point 8rc, 60 scene, I and 3 act* (but adjusted, because 3 act can be boring if you use the whole 3rd act for resolution). I basically have an adjustable form I fill out using that. Which has worked for me with all of my books except for 1, as I got stuck between the characters story (which fit in the 60 scenes perfectly) and what the story needs to DO to move the series forward (which didn't have a clear place to be worked in, at least not to me). I ended up hiring a woman named Mary Novak to help me sort that part out. I often create these outlines for my writing partner who can write a book in 30-60 days that way that requires minimal (if any) rewrites. Just made another one last night  I'm curious about this book mentioned, though. I've been eyeing it. I just don't know if I can divorce myself from my current method. Then again, I think having lots of methods for plotting is great <3


What does the bolded text mean?


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2015)

Chrissy said:


> What does the bolded text mean?


it means my phone makes insane typos.

8 point arc: http://www.dailywritingtips.com/how-to-structure-a-story-the-eight-point-arc/
60 scene method: http://margaretdilloway.com/2010/09/06/how-to-outline-a-novel-60-index-cards-method/
3 act structure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-act_structure (although mine is modified)

I basically created a "worksheet" that uses this and I just go in an fill in my 8 points and then go put the scenes inbetween with all the conflict. Usually my 8 points change when I start the 60 scene, as the scenes can sometimes change the main turns in the story.


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> it means my phone makes insane typos.
> 
> 8 point arc: http://www.dailywritingtips.com/how-to-structure-a-story-the-eight-point-arc/
> 60 scene method: http://margaretdilloway.com/2010/09/06/how-to-outline-a-novel-60-index-cards-method/
> ...


Thanks for the explanation!


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## Cookie Monster (Apr 6, 2014)

Has anyone gotten the updated text yet? The cover and blurb updated, but not the text. I bought it again, in case the book had just gotten messed up in my account, but still got the old text. I'm not sure if the new text is actually available now.


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

Cookie Monster said:


> Has anyone gotten the updated text yet? The cover and blurb updated, but not the text. I bought it again, in case the book had just gotten messed up in my account, but still got the old text. I'm not sure if the new text is actually available now.


Not so far.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Cookie Monster said:


> Has anyone gotten the updated text yet? The cover and blurb updated, but not the text. I bought it again, in case the book had just gotten messed up in my account, but still got the old text. I'm not sure if the new text is actually available now.


So annoying!! I'm going to talk to KDP today and see if they can figure out what's going on.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

If anyone would like to try the Plot Machine, it is FREE today. I welcome any comments.

http://www.amazon.com/Plot-Machine-Better-Stories-Faster-ebook/dp/B0163M998C/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

My version isn't updated too. Umm, will have to contact Amazon. Do the updated versions in general automatically sync on the Kindles? Sorry to sound so dull but on my Kindle nothing gets synced unless I message Amazon.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

Just wanted to mention a pleasant side effect of creating an outline, especially with the categories of information that TOYP makes you think about: half the work of writing a blurb is already done before you've written a word. You know who the main character is, what they are trying to achieve, what they will struggle to overcome, whether or not they will succeed, and what the point of the whole thing is. I'm really enjoying the prospect of sounding coherent the next time someone asks, "so, what's your book about" instead of responding, "er, um, it's sort of like, well, there's this one guy and, um..."


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

JLCarver said:


> I looked this up last night, and as I recall, only a few devices are set up automatically. I had to go into my Amazon account and go to the Manage Your Content and Devices to force it to automatically update on my iPad. Click on the Settings tab, and you'll find the options to automatically update.
> 
> Here's the link to how to set it up automatically, and it lists the apps and devices that are automatically set to download updates: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201252670


Thanks!

I went to check.

My account was already setup for automatic update and I didn't receive the updates. 

So there must be more to it.


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## Cookie Monster (Apr 6, 2014)

I just checked again and TOYP has updated to the revised text on my Kindle Voyage and my phone! Maybe it just took a while to get out there.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Cookie Monster said:


> I just checked again and TOYP has updated to the revised text on my Kindle Voyage and my phone! Maybe it just took a while to get out there.


No update for me yet.  New cover, but not new text. Very jealous!


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

JLCarver said:


> Same here. I keep checking! Lol!


Me too.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

So weird. The Look Inside is showing the correct version. No answer from KDP yet on what's going on!

You two can email me at libbiehawker at gmail.com and I can send you Mobi files. Sorry -- that's super annoying!


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## TBD (Mar 14, 2014)

I just did a manual update on TOYP. Go into your Digital Orders and find it... Then click in the empty left tick box and on the dropdown box next to it, choose deliver. A list of your devices will magically appear.  Choose the one you want and... Walla!  Bob's your uncle! ;-)


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

TBD said:


> I just did a manual update on TOYP. Go into your Digital Orders and find it... Then click in the empty left tick box and on the dropdown box next to it, choose deliver. A list of your devices will magically appear. Choose the one you want and... Walla! Bob's your uncle! ;-)


Unfortunately I've tried that 2-3 times and still no enchilada.

Edit: I'll give JL's strategy a try. Fingers crossed.

Editx2: YAY THEY PUSHED IT THROUGH I NOW HAVE THE BOOK

Much excitement.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2015)

Libbie, just wanted to let you know that my mother, who is also a writer, RAVED AND RAVED about your outlining book.  (She also wants to read some of your other books.)  But she said your outlining book made more sense than any outlining book she's ever read.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

JLCarver said:


> I managed to finally get the updated version too! But I had to chat with Amazon customer service to do so. Try removing the copy of TOYP from all your devices--I had it on my phone, on my computer, and on my iPad through the Kindle App--and then try redelivering. The nice Amazon person forced all of mine to update with the new copy. If you're still getting the old version, scroll down to the very bottom of Libbie's Amazon page for TOYP, and click on the Contact Us links. I did it through online chat, and it took all of five minutes to complete.
> 
> Now, off to read about outlining series!
> 
> And thank you, Libbie, for looking into this on your end. I really appreciate it! And, of course, thank you for a great outlining book!


looks like I'm going to have to contact them. Just checked all my devices, but the only I had it on was my newest kindle, but after deleting and resending half a dozen times, I'm still getting the original version I bought back in march


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

KL_Phelps said:


> looks like I'm going to have to contact them. Just checked all my devices, but the only I had it on was my newest kindle, but after deleting and resending half a dozen times, I'm still getting the original version I bought back in march


They'll likely have you delete it and then they'll force the reset and send it over.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

elizabethsade said:


> They'll likely have you delete it and then they'll force the reset and send it over.


they did, had me do it twice, first resend still sent the old version, but now I have the updated version yippie! Now to add it to my 'collection' I intend to tackle next month


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Thanks. I'll look into that. I have been using Scrivener's card feature, and it would be great to have a mind-mapping tool that plugged into it.


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## Logan R. (May 13, 2011)

I opened my Kindle today and had the new version waiting for me. Looking forward to reading the new sections!


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

Hey you people with the outlines in Scrivener... any chance you'd share the template file I'd love to poke through it!


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2015)

Boyd said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Take-Off-Your-Pants-Outline/dp/1518637825/
> 
> now in paperback...


Awesome. Just ordered it  (For writing books, I prefer paperbacks to kindle editions)

From what I'm reading, it sounds like it might help me in the pre-plotting stage to how I plot now. Super excited to give it a go


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## TheLemontree (Sep 12, 2015)

I had to contact support to get the correct internal file, too.  But now I have it! Yay!


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## Dale Ivan Smith (Oct 13, 2015)

Ditto for me as well, CS was lightning quick with the revised version once the original was off all my Kindle devices/apps 
Libbie I want to thank you for writing *Take Off Your Pants*, it's a terrific book. I had tried reading Truby a while back, but couldn't make any headway. I read TOYP last summer and then picked up Truby again. This time it made sense. His breakdown remains far more intricate, which for my money makes TOYP much more applicable to my novel writing. Your book also pairs very well with James Scott Bell's *Write Your Novel From the Middle* and his *Super Structure*.

Thanks again!


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## Gina Black (Mar 15, 2011)

I got my update!


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

What's a quick way to know you have the updated version, not the old file?


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Guys, I've had a BUSY few days--so I'm sorry I wasn't able to keep up on this thread. I'm glad to hear those of you who were having difficulty getting the updated file managed to make it work! Yay!

Jolie, that's so sweet of your mom! She sounds awesome. 

Dale -- I've heard a few people say that my outlining method seems to work well with JSB's books, too! He was at a conference I attended this summer but I wasn't able to make it to his presentation. I'm still bummed about that--I've heard great things about his teaching!

Richard -- the fastest way is to page backward to the title page of the ebook (I think it opens automatically on the TOC.) The latest edition has "Revised and Expanded Edition" under the title. Hope that helps!


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Has anyone gotten the revised edition without contacting Amazon? It's my understanding that they won't push updates to all users (even those with automatic updates on), unless the author contacts them and asks them too.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Rinelle Grey said:


> Has anyone gotten the revised edition without contacting Amazon? It's my understanding that they won't push updates to all users (even those with automatic updates on), unless the author contacts them and asks them too.


I did, but maybe I need to jab them with a stick again! Arrgh!

ETA: Oh -- it looks like they won't send out updated files to all users for additional content. (Only for corrections of "destructive or distracting errors.") So it seems if people want to read the revised edition, they will have to manually request it via the Manage Your Kindle link on their Amazon account page. Darn! Sorry, guys!


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> Jolie, that's so sweet of your mom! She sounds awesome.


Thanks! She said she was going to leave you a review. I checked, and she did. 

"I've just finished reading Libbie Hawker's book, "Take Off Your Pants." I felt like she had written it just for me. I had just written a short story and I knew almost instantly where my mistakes were. I am currently rewriting my story and tightening it up. I wholeheartedly recommend this book for serious writers. I bought her book, Tidewater, and I am thoroughly enjoying it. Libbie is a gifted writer."


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## NoLongerPosting (Apr 5, 2014)

Removed due to site owner's change of TOS.


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## Steve M (May 21, 2011)

Rickie Blair said:


> Nothing I've done has updated my version. Still the old one, sorry. Is there any way to get the new chapter?


Go to your Manage Your Content and Devices page. Click on "Help" in the upper right hand corner. Scroll down and click on "Need More Help?" in the shaded box, then click on "Contact Us." Select Libbie's book, then follow the prompts and request the updated version.

I received an email from Amazon confirming the updated version was sent in about two minutes. Easy peasy!


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## NoLongerPosting (Apr 5, 2014)

Removed due to site owner's change of TOS.


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## Cookie Monster (Apr 6, 2014)

I received the new version without contacting Amazon, because I have my settings set up to automatically update books. This is a setting on your Amazon account, as I think some people have mentioned in this thread. I believe it's under Manage Your Content and Devices.


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## LinaG (Jun 18, 2012)

Go to Amazon.com
Log in to your account
Dropdown on the right for My Account
Choose Manage your Content and Devices
You should see your kindle Library and 3 tabs
Choose the Settings tab
scroll down to Automatic Book Update
Make sure this is set to ON (mine was on 'off')
Under the Content tab
Check the box next to TOYP
Click the "deliver" button on the top left of the column
Select your devices (kindles, desktop, etc) in the dialog box> It should list the title as revised edition.
Hit the 'deliver' button in the dialog box.
Wait for the sinc.

This worked for me

Li


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## NoLongerPosting (Apr 5, 2014)

Removed due to site owner's change of TOS.


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## NoLongerPosting (Apr 5, 2014)

Removed due to site owner's change of TOS.


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## Gina Black (Mar 15, 2011)

I got my revised copy without contacting Amazon.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Jane_Dough said:


> Hasn't worked for me either and I'm in the US.


Me either. I had to manually contact them, delete it off my device - which did keep my bookmarks/etc - and then they pushed the revised edition through.

It should keep all of your notes/etc, I think?


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## NoLongerPosting (Apr 5, 2014)

Mine still hasn't updated, but Libbie kindly emailed me the new chapter. Thanks, Libbie!


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## BeachB (Sep 3, 2013)

Does the print edition have the word "revised" in the title?  The paperback on Amazon doesn't have say revised and says it was published on March 11,2015.  Is that the correct one with the next revisions?  Thanks for your help!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

BeachB said:


> Does the print edition have the word "revised" in the title? The paperback on Amazon doesn't have say revised and says it was published on March 11,2015. Is that the correct one with the next revisions? Thanks for your help!


If it's the paperback edition, that is also the revised edition.  I didn't make a paperback of the first edition.


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## BeachB (Sep 3, 2013)

Awesome - off to purchase now.  I already had the ebook version but some books are so good I need them in paperback to make reference easier.


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## Mafalda Writes (Jul 25, 2015)

SO happy to have found this thread! 
Libby, you are awesome! This book has helped me solidify my already hybrid approach and made it much cohesive and stronger. I am an organic writer who sketches (outlines) the storyline in general ways. now it is much better.

I also got it updated after trying to do it on my own, I chatted with Amazon and in less than 5 minutes it was all done in the two devices I wanted it in.


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## dmaxwell (Jan 2, 2015)

Steve M said:


> Go to your Manage Your Content and Devices page. Click on "Help" in the upper right hand corner. Scroll down and click on "Need More Help?" in the shaded box, then click on "Contact Us." Select Libbie's book, then follow the prompts and request the updated version.
> 
> I received an email from Amazon confirming the updated version was sent in about two minutes. Easy peasy!


I tried deleting the book and downloading the updated version a few times and then followed the suggestion to notify customer service. Instead of a snappy two minute delivery of the updated version I got this less-than-helpful response after a few hours:

"I've checked you [sic] device details and would like to inform you that the book is stuck in the queue due to multiple download trials. To resolve this issue I suggest you to deregister your device and register again with your amazon [sic] account."

Sigh. That's right, it's the old "You'll need to reformat your hard drive" response. As much as I'd love the updated version I'm not going to deregister and re-register in the hope that solves the problem. I have something like 500 items on my Paperwhite, many of them side-loaded.

Not only am I left unsatisfied from my interaction with customer service but I also have the sneaking suspicion that with all the kboarders inundating customer service with urgent requests to get the updated version of a book titled "Take Off Your Pants" it won't be long before poor Libbie is banished to the erotica dungeon.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Haha! I hope that doesn't happen! But I would have a good laugh if it did.


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## dmaxwell (Jan 2, 2015)

dmaxwell said:


> I tried deleting the book and downloading the updated version a few times and then followed the suggestion to notify customer service. Instead of a snappy two minute delivery of the updated version I got this less-than-helpful response after a few hours:
> 
> "I've checked you [sic] device details and would like to inform you that the book is stuck in the queue due to multiple download trials. To resolve this issue I suggest you to deregister your device and register again with your amazon [sic] account."
> 
> ...


UPDATE: I realized I hadn't tried the #1 computer problem solver, the reboot. (Because I don't think of my Paperwhite as a computer, I think of it as a book, duh. A really, really magical book with lots and lots of stories). So I rebooted, crossed my fingers, prayed toward the Northwest (in Libbie's direction or Amazon's direction -- you decide) and downloaded TOYP again. This time I got the updated version. No Kindle deregistration required. So for those still not getting the updated version, maybe try a reboot?


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## jimbro (Jan 10, 2014)

I tried everything mentioned above (except De-registering) and still can't get Amazon to send me the updated book. Not going to worry about it anymore-the updated version doesn't sound all that different. 
*However*: There is a thread over on The Passive Voice that discusses an issue with pre-orders that is probably related: http://www.thepassivevoice.com/2015/11/amazons-pre-order-quagmire/


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