# Westminster Dog Show?



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Anyone going? Couldn't manage the time away this year. Best seats from the couch, anyway, but sure is exciting in person. Who will watch besides me and my furry crew?    One year I had the distinction of shooting photos at Westminster, and slipped/fell on the steps of Madison Square Garden and cracked open my chin. Had the option of getting the hockey players' medic stitch me up...opted for another doc, but it sure made a good story.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

Never been, but I catch it on TV whenever I can. BTW, if anyone knows what time/channel, let us know. I enjoy seeing the more recently accepted/rarer breeds. I saw a pair of Pharaoh Hounds at the pet store a few days ago. Gorgeous dogs and very well behaved. I'm guessing they were show dogs.


----------



## Pawz4me (Feb 14, 2009)

I usually watch, at least for as long as I can stay awake.


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Isn't tonight the second night?

Which group are Poodles in? Working dogs?

L


----------



## Jane917 (Dec 29, 2009)

The broadcast is next Monday and Tuesday. Monday is in the Non-Sporting group.


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

Several friends are going (the owner of Uno, the beagle who won a few years ago, is a friend, plus my friend with Standard Schnauzers who has won breed several times, plus maybe my Min Pin breeder, I need to call her and ask).

Poodle are non-sporting. Monday night the coverage skips between USA and CNBC, Tuesday night it's all USA. Here's the schedule:

NIGHT 1:
Monday, February 13
Hound, Toy, Non-Sporting and Herding Groups
8-9 p.m. (ET) live on USA Network
9-11 p.m. (ET) live on CNBC

NIGHT 2:
Tuesday, February 14
Sporting, Working and Terrier Groups, Best In Show
8-11 p.m. (ET) live on USA Network 

I'll be rooting for Fifi the Doberman, Ch Protocol's Veni Vidi Vici. #1 in the country right now, she's gorgeous and she has excellent Doberman temperament.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Uno is awesome! I was a big fan of the Newf, too but always root for the GSD though they've not done all that well in recent years. Love a gorgeous dobie, will watch for Fifi. I like the big dogs--well, they're all gorgeous. And I love that they now push the fact these are show dogs AND often working dogs AND pets AND...not just a pretty face. *s*


----------



## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I used to watch it religiously, but fell out of the habit.  (Herding group is my fave, because I'm always Team Sheltie!)

Amy, you were mentioned in a major magazine a few weeks back, weren't you? I can't remember which one, but it was an article on aging pets. I want to say Time or Newsweek, but maybe it was Prevention? Yeah, memory like a steel trap!


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Jane917 said:


> The broadcast is next Monday and Tuesday. Monday is in the Non-Sporting group.


Oh, I was just a week ahead of myself!


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

While of course some of these dogs don't do any sport other than breed/conformation, many of them do. And if you are campaigning a dog in the breed ring to get points to go somewhere like Westminster, often time/money to do other stuff is sort of limited, at least for awhile.

Uno is a hoot, and he does a lot of therapy work now. Fifi the Dobe doesn't do anything at the moment but show, but she will probably go on to get some schutzhund titles; my friend who has met her says she's got a really great temperament for the sport (somewhat rare in american-lines show dobermans). Her sister is a super fast agility dog.


----------



## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

Uno and my bro Beagle share the same birthday -- May 5. Few years apart though.


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

That last photo, with Uno and his bowl, the guy in the background is my friend Eddie.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> I used to watch it religiously, but fell out of the habit.  (Herding group is my fave, because I'm always Team Sheltie!)
> 
> Amy, you were mentioned in a major magazine a few weeks back, weren't you? I can't remember which one, but it was an article on aging pets. I want to say Time or Newsweek, but maybe it was Prevention? Yeah, memory like a steel trap!


Hi Michelle, Yes that was me in Prevention Magazine. *s* I never saw the article but they did send me advance copy to approve, and I was told it would appear toward the end of December or January.

I grew up with Shelties! Lovely, gorgeous--but barky--dogs. Our first sheltie was tricolor, and then when I left for college Mom had three sables, and her last was a blue merle named Skye. In fact Skye's picture is in the aging dog book as the demo dog for being medicated (what a patient fellow!).

My most memorable moment at Westminster was the show right after 911. I was in the press box that year. Everyone stood, tears streaming, when the handlers and their SAR dogs entered the Gardens. The policeman was there with his new K9 partner--his first dog died in one of the towers. *wiping eyes again* So moving.


----------



## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

I will be watching the Terrier Group on Tuesday.....but you probably guessed that.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Geoff, those terriers have such attitude, it's great fun to watch 'em strut their stuff!


----------



## drenee (Nov 11, 2008)

I LOVE the Westminster dog show.  
My ex was a photographer and we did several local (NC) dog shows about 15 or so years ago.  
I always loved to guess the winner.  I was right more often than not.  
I'm not a huge poodle lover (sorry Monday.  I'm sure you're lovely), but the poodles always show so well.  Especially the standard.
deb


----------



## Tatiana (Aug 20, 2010)

geoffthomas said:


> I will be watching the Terrier Group on Tuesday.....but you probably guessed that.


I'll be watching the Scottish Terrier Group also, hoping for another Scottish Terrier win like Sadie two years ago.


----------



## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

Border Terriers !!!


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Sandpiper said:


> Border Terriers !!!


Wow, he's really grown!


----------



## momilp (Jan 11, 2010)

Sandpiper, thanks for posting Uno's pictures! I love all dogs, but I'm a huge fan of beagles


----------



## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Sandpiper said:


> Border Terriers !!!


I really, really want to snuggle him!


----------



## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

I love Beagles and Borders.  Borders are a rough and tumble breed.  "Big dog in a small dog's body."  But especially by later in the day and evening, Burke asks to get up in my lap and sleep.  Too cute this evening.  I was sitting in my usual chair.  He stood on his back legs and put his front paws on my leg.  I didn't shove him off and didn't pick him up either.  Then he laid his head  (side of his head, not his chin) on my leg too.  Not just briefly.  Aaaaaaaaw!  Just too cute.  Then I had to pick him up.  He is full grown now at 15 - 16 lbs.  Looong legs and small paws.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Sandpiper said:


> I love Beagles and Borders. Borders are a rough and tumble breed. "Big dog in a small dog's body." But especially by later in the day and evening, Burke asks to get up in my lap and sleep. Too cute this evening. I was sitting in my usual chair. He stood on his back legs and put his front paws on my leg. I didn't shove him off and didn't pick him up either. Then he laid his head (side of his head, not his chin) on my leg too. Not just briefly. Aaaaaaaaw! Just too cute. Then I had to pick him up. He is full grown now at 15 - 16 lbs. Looong legs and small paws.


They figure out what 'cute' pose works best, don't they? Accidentally-on-purpose. *s*


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

For those who don't have cable TV (like me), NBC Nightly News is having a 'before the show' segment about Westminster on Monday.


----------



## Meb Bryant (Jun 27, 2011)

I read this thread to my Yorkie Rambo and explained the importance of personal hygiene. He disagreed.

Therefore, we shall take a bath in the kitchen sink. I wash him, he shakes and washes me.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Here are a few Westminster pix from year's past:


Yorkie with handler during show by amyshojai, on Flickr


mastiff by amyshojai, on Flickr


CLUMBER SPANIEL by amyshojai, on Flickr


Standard white poodle in papers by amyshojai, on Flickr


Skye Terrier  by amyshojai, on Flickr


Newfoundland by amyshojai, on Flickr


----------



## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Love the pics, and at least one reminds me of the saying about people looking like their pets.


----------



## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

Amyshojai said:


> Standard white poodle in papers by amyshojai, on Flickr


Sorry, but that's why I don't care much for poodles. The "hair cuts" look ridiculous. Disgraces a poor dog. It turns me off the breed.


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Sandpiper said:


> Sorry, but that's why I don't care much for poodles. The "hair cuts" look ridiculous. Disgraces a poor dog. It turns me off the breed.


I think that poodles might be one of the more extreme examples of what "show dogs" look like vs. what dogs who live with non-show people look like. Monday looks just fine in her puppy cut which is what she'll be wearing for the rest of her life. I don't like all that foofy hair, plus I don't have hours every day to brush it. When we first met her she had sort of a foofy cut and looked ridiculous when she was running around and playing. Sort of like a toddler playing in the sandbox wearing an evening gown. LOL.

Dog-wise, Monday is terrific. She's smart and has tons of personality and pours her unconditional love on us 24/7. Remember what they say about judging a book by its cover...

L


----------



## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Isn't the foof just an exaggerated version of a cut meant to keep the joints warm as they hunt? (And who doesn't think hunter when they think poo-dell?)


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

MichelleR said:


> Isn't the foof just an exaggerated version of a cut meant to keep the joints warm as they hunt? (And who doesn't think hunter when they think poo-dell?)


I didn't know that so thanks, Michelle, I've learned something new:



> Early poodles were large dogs used as water retrievers, and it is because of this serious occupation that the fanciful-looking Continental trim evolved.
> 
> Poodles' coats were debilitatingly heavy when wet, so the dogs were shaved in the areas that didn't need protection from the cold water (like the hind end and the legs), with the ankles, chest, and head kept covered with hair. The Continental clip may appear silly to some (and has definitely given poodles an undeserved reputation as sissy dogs), but it has its origins in athleticism and hard work.


Poodles were also the most popular dogs in the US for years, which is probably why my parents had one (still trying to find the statistics. Will post when I do.). They are not number one anymore but still in the top ten.

L


----------



## Jane917 (Dec 29, 2009)

Those poodle cuts might look a little over-the-top to us folks that don't show dogs, but ya gotta admit, the poodles stride in the ring with pride. They scream, "look at me"........ 

Jack's groomer raises and shows standard poodles. When those dogs are out of the rings, they just want to be lap dogs like all the rest.


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

Honey Poodles DEFINE metrosexual. There are some male standard poodles that absolutely rock the doo.

Poodles are seriously cool dogs, especially the Minis and Standards. A lot of the Standards are natural gun dogs and great swimmers. They have a huge mischievous sense of humor but can be serious guards. Incredibly intelligent. Minis in particular have few health problems and it's not at all unusual for Minis and toys to live way into their teens (don't buy the koolaid that says purebreds aren't healthy, it just ain't true).

Look past the pouf, and look at the head carriage and the steely look in the eye...


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

I had my own grooming shop for a few years and had lots of poodles. Intelligent dogs, even tempered for the most part, met a few silly ones and they tended to be very long lived dogs. I liked them, all sizes.


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

It is true that the show poodle puts the "Show" in dog show. It takes about 6 hours total to create the Continental poodle clip, and a true artist with scissors to do it. But there's a very real dog under the hair.

Now me, it's the breeds with very heavy beards/face hair I don't care for as much. All the food and gunk they get into their beards (not at Westminster of course!)


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Yep, there's "real dogs" underneath the coat, whatever it might be. And poodles (all sizes) definitely have been standouts at Westminster. You'll see them being shaved 30 seconds before they go into the ring! 

Of course, you also see Yorkies in "papers" to keep their hair clean, and Basset hounds wearing ear snoods, etc. Ain't it grand, though, that there are so many shapes, sizes, breeds, attitudes, and aptitudes to fit ever dog lover's taste?


----------



## Pawz4me (Feb 14, 2009)

Looks like the WKC folks think Pedigree's adoption-focused ads are too much of a downer. So they're dropping them in favor of Purina.

Linkage


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Yep, I saw that about Pedigree and Purina. Of course Purina already sponsors the big show in November. Betcha it'll be ProPlan (that's the one they push for breeders, I think). Bye bye to the yellow and blue...


----------



## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Amyshojai said:


> Yep, there's "real dogs" underneath the coat, whatever it might be. And poodles (all sizes) definitely have been standouts at Westminster. You'll see them being shaved 30 seconds before they go into the ring!
> 
> Of course, you also see Yorkies in "papers" to keep their hair clean, and Basset hounds wearing ear snoods, etc. Ain't it grand, though, that there are so many shapes, sizes, breeds, attitudes, and aptitudes to fit ever dog lover's taste?


Well...up to the point where they have been bred more for an appearance to satisfy human tastes in exchange for increased health risks (increased hip dysplasia in certain breeds, sinus/nasal issues is those that have bred to have essentially no noses, etc.). I guess that's part of the reason I'm more drawn these days to working breeds that have been bred mainly to do a job, not just to look good -- though they all look good to me one way or another.  (And note that the Standard Poodle, at least, is (was?) a working breed, with that thick, curly coat being intended to protect and insulate them in thickets and cold water.) Of course, my favorites are mutts that just look like dogs, not requiring me to make too great a mental leap to connect them to their lupine ancestors.


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

> Well...up to the point where they have been bred more for an appearance to satisfy human tastes in exchange for increased health risks (increased hip dysplasia in certain breeds, sinus/nasal issues is those that have bred to have essentially no noses, etc.). I guess that's part of the reason I'm more drawn these days to working breeds that have been bred mainly to do a job, not just to look good -- though they all look good to me one way or another. Smiley (And note that the Standard Poodle, at least, is (was?) a working breed, with that thick, curly coat being intended to protect and insulate them in thickets and cold water.) Of course, my favorites are mutts that just look like dogs, not requiring me to make too great a mental leap to connect them to their lupine ancestors.


Unfortunately you have a limited understanding of canine genetics and the role and incidence of genetic disease in dogs.

Dogs are a domesticated species, and as such, they are ALL prone to genetic disease. 99.9% of mixed breed dogs in this country come from purebred dogs, often not far back in the family tree. And hybrid vigor really doesn't work in dogs. Let's say you have a Poodle (since we're discussing them) and a Doberman and you breed them together to get a mixed breed puppy. The puppies from that litter will not get any genetic diseases unique to each breed. But they can and will get any disease shared by both parent breeds. So they may not get Sebaceous Adenitis (a skin disease of Poodles) or cardiomyopathy (a heart disease of Dobermans). But they can get hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, hypothyroidism and/or vonWillebrand's disease, all conditions shared by both parent breeds. And once those puppies are bred? All protection is lost, and any further generation can get any and all diseases of any of its ancestor breeds.

Responsible breeders, the huge majority of which show their dogs, work extremely hard to produce dogs which are not only beautiful but healthy with correct temperaments. It is a total myth that all purebreds are ill or that breeders are deliberately breeding deformities for the show ring. There are a few breeds that do have some real issues. Most do not. And your chance of getting a healthy, long-lived dog is actually probably greater if you go with a good breeder than with a random-bred mix which may or may not have healthy ancestors behind it.

That's not to diss mixes; they are amazing dogs. But they are not inherently "better" than purebreds and people who try to portray them as such do them a disservice. There are tons of mixes out there and they have now been welcomed in AKC in all working sports.

Finally, as someone who does actually do sport work with my dog, I want a dog where I can predict size, temperament, and health. That means purebred for me. My preference.


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

I think that NogDog was making the point that some show standards are known to be not healthy for the dog. There was a long article in the New York Times a few months ago about bulldogs and all their health problems. It was brought up several times that just a few, minor changes would make the breed much healthier but because they are supposed to have a certain "look" there is a lot of resistance to making any changes.

Here's a link to the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/magazine/can-the-bulldog-be-saved.html

And here's another interesting article from today's paper. I read the book, _The Cruelest Miles_, last year. It was very interesting and I definitely recommend it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/sports/spirit-of-a-racer-in-a-siberian-huskys-blood.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all

L


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

A few breeds, including the Bulldog, really do have some issues. It's a pretty thorny ethical question though. ALL dogs are artificial man-made constructs (and yes, that includes mutts). That said, how far is too far? For me, a dog who cannot live a hardy healthy life and a dog who cannot breed or whelp without assistance is "too far." Yet for some of these breeds, changing that thought process is very difficult for breeders because they have to shift how they have learned to think about the breed. 

Unfortunately as well, the public looks at those very few breeds with real issues and immediately extrapolates that all purebred breeds are unhealthy genetic monstrosities. And it's just flat untrue. The vast majority of responsibly bred purebred dogs are wonderful, happy, healthy dogs. While there are certainly some unethical breeders out there, there are also breeders doing it the right way.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

DD Graphix said:


> A few breeds, including the Bulldog, really do have some issues. It's a pretty thorny ethical question though....
> 
> Unfortunately as well, the public looks at those very few breeds with real issues and immediately extrapolates that all purebred breeds are unhealthy genetic monstrosities. ....


This. Also, the media is notorious for finding the absolutely most shocking, worst cases (because that makes for the best hand-waving news) and publicizing the heck out of it. Yes, there are some inherent problems within certain breeds, and they are to a great extent an artificial creation. But it's the responsible breeders who also have worked to identify problems within certain breeds or lines, and in some of these cases, get rid of (breed away) from those genetic issues.


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

I don't know how many dogs are listed in the OFA databases now, but it passed 1,000,000 several years ago. The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) is a non-profit organization that helps breeders test for, and record results from, inherited canine genetic diseases. Those results are available to anyone to look at using their massive online search engine; it's the largest canine health database in the world. And the very fact that it is so huge speaks to the caring and commitment of dedicated hobby breeders who work extremely hard to both identify and eliminate genetic disease in their respective breeds. (http://www.offa.org)


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Live streaming on the website for some of the judging:

http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/


----------



## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Just for the record, I wasn't trying to pick on breeders: just humanity in general for choosing to breed _some_ dog varieties mainly to please our esthetics first with the dogs' well-being a secondary concern (if at all), much of this occurring well before modern breeding organizations with their codes of ethics came into being. Some is still done by so-called puppy mills and "casual" (uncertified?) breeders, who likely are only interested in cuteness or ferociousness (depending on their clientele) and not in what is best for the dogs, as compared to the serious, certified breeders who are probably in the minority when it comes to breeding, unfortunately.

For that matter, just compare the turkey bred to end up on your Thanksgiving table versus the wild turkey that Ben Franklin wanted as our national bird, or the sheep that we have dumbed down over the centuries until this could happen:






I guess the dogs have had it pretty good.


----------



## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I can't feel good about a breed standard unless it values function as much as form. I think it's another reason why I love the herding group. With my beloved Shelties, it's a joy to see that herding instinct kick in and feel like they could put in a full day's work, if they weren't too busy counting little sheep in their heads. It's a wonder to see a healthy dog in motion, and if a standard discourages that over some physical affectation, it becomes grotesque.

I also think anyone who breeds needs to support rescue with some combination of time, money, and/or fostering.


----------



## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

British documentary film -- Pedigree Dogs Exposed.


----------



## Jane917 (Dec 29, 2009)

Two of Jack's half siblings (same sire, Ch. Paquavele Enchanted) were entered this year. This is what Jack thought of it all.










A pup from one of his kennel mates took Best of Opposite Sex (Champion Covington Paydirt).


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

If I took a picture of Monday, she'd be just as interested as Jack in all this dog stuff. LOL.

Just finished the non-sporting group and Ian the Dalmatian won. My father grew up with Dalmatians so that's a fine choice in my book! The miniature poodle came in fourth. 

Back in the hound group, the greyhound was passed over (as always).

My vote right now is on Ian for Best of Show. We'll see what happens between now and tomorrow night...

L


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

The documentary "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" was made by an animal rights group that wants to stop all dog breeding, and it very unfairly took the very worst of a few breeds and made it seem as if that was the norm for all breeds and all breeders. A very nasty piece of propaganda, that.

As for Pedigree vs Pro Plan, Purina has had a direct role in supporting dog shows, clubs, and show breeders for a long time; much more so than Pedigree ever has. It's not a mixed breed vs purebred thing. AKC now accepts mixes in obedience and agility and has always accepted purebreds of unknown parentage/altered dogs, etc. in all sports but conformation. The Purina/Pro Plan sponsorship is a much more appropriate match, especially since so many show breeders feed it. (the other big sponsor that a lot of show breeders feed is Eukanuba, and they do the Invitational).


----------



## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

I just have to say that of many "breeds" that I have shared my life with, one was a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.  Perhaps the perfect family pet.  Nice, sweet, energetic.  Two issues though: Cannot recommend for families with small children - the dog will be very gentle but the children can hurt the dog (it is a soft dog with small bones).  Second issue is that the AKC breed description mentions a long list of "issues" that the breed has that if your dog does not have to start with, it is likely to die of.  Mine had eye troubles and always had breathing troubles.  But a more loveable dog would be hard to find.


My current dog is a Cairn Terrier.  Again the AKC breed description lists no know issues with the breed.  This is one of the Basic Breeds that almost all other terriers are believed to have been bred from.  And mine is true to breed, he has no problems.

I cite these examples to reinforce that "creating" a breed sometimes weakens the stock by keeping a genetic deficiency.  


But I do love ALL dogs.

Just sayin.....


----------



## Meb Bryant (Jun 27, 2011)

I love dogs and embrace their sense of family and loyalty. From wild animal to man's best friend.


----------



## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

DD Graphix said:


> The documentary "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" was made by an animal rights group that wants to stop all dog breeding, and it very unfairly took the very worst of a few breeds and made it seem as if that was the norm for all breeds and all breeders. A very nasty piece of propaganda, that.


I saw the film on PBS. I didn't take it exactly that way. I didn't see it as the norm for what IS being done to all (most) breeds, but IIRC an example of what has been done to two, GSD and Pekingese (?) and therefore COULD be done to many more.

This past summer I got a purebred Border Terrier from a breeder in the U.S. No doubt she's an excellent breeder. I got a lot of info about the breed, Burke's lineage, and dogs and dog training in general. Brentwood Borders


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

I'll get to watch the show tonight, yay! Had a rehearsal for the new play last night, but my heart was with the doggies. *s* By the way, Jack is gorgeous!

amy

ps. I agree about the "pedigree dogs exposed" show--I interviewed some folks for my radio show after that came out, first on the pedigree dog side and then the purebred cat side of things. For those interested, they're Deadly Beauty, Breeding for looks? (cats) http://www.petliferadio.com/peevesep35.html

And the dog version in response to the TV documentary: http://www.petliferadio.com/peevesep26.html


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> I can't feel good about a breed standard unless it values function as much as form. I think it's another reason why I love the herding group. With my beloved Shelties, it's a joy to see that herding instinct kick in and feel like they could put in a full day's work, if they weren't too busy counting little sheep in their heads. It's a wonder to see a healthy dog in motion, and if a standard discourages that over some physical affectation, it becomes grotesque.


Ah, I nearly missed the whole diversion into genetics here.

Michelle, I agree with you about the herding group. It's my favorite, too. We just recently had to re-home our sheep, as the coyote problem locally has gotten out of hand (I miss my sheep!), but for ten years we always had a dog that was trained to move the sheep from pasture to pasture. With our red tri male Aussie, Lachlan, I could open the gate at the top of the hill, send the dog waaaay down the hill to get them, and just walk to the next pasture a hundred yards away. In a minute the flock would come trotting with him calmly wearing behind. By then, I was at the next gate, they'd go flying in, and I'd close it. Saved us heaps of time. He was happiest when he was working, but he's also content to just lie around the house.

I feel out of the loop not having cable TV and existing on cruddy rural internet. Keep the updates coming, though.



> I don't know how many dogs are listed in the OFA databases now, but it passed 1,000,000 several years ago. The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) is a non-profit organization that helps breeders test for, and record results from, inherited canine genetic diseases. Those results are available to anyone to look at using their massive online search engine; it's the largest canine health database in the world. And the very fact that it is so huge speaks to the caring and commitment of dedicated hobby breeders who work extremely hard to both identify and eliminate genetic disease in their respective breeds. (http://www.offa.org)


And CERF for eyes - http://www.vmdb.org/cerf.html. Many breeds also have committees or groups focused on that particular breed's genetic health. For Aussies, it's the Australian Shepherd Health and Genetics Institute - http://www.ashgi.org/. Breeders, individuals and clubs donate tens of thousands of dollars every year to fund research, maintain databases and educate owners.


----------



## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I taped it and watched The Voice live. I was tweeting too, and I had to laugh when someone commented that the


Spoiler



Pekingese taking group


 meant there was no God.


----------



## Jane917 (Dec 29, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> I just have to say that of many "breeds" that I have shared my life with, one was a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. Perhaps the perfect family pet. Nice, sweet, energetic. Two issues though: Cannot recommend for families with small children - the dog will be very gentle but the children can hurt the dog (it is a soft dog with small bones). Second issue is that the AKC breed description mentions a long list of "issues" that the breed has that if your dog does not have to start with, it is likely to die of. Mine had eye troubles and always had breathing troubles. But a more loveable dog would be hard to find.
> 
> But I do love ALL dogs.
> 
> Just sayin.....


I am glad you have known the joys of a CKCS. Jack is the quintessential lap dog. Jack was bred by a reputable breeder (in the top 10 of US CKCS breeders) and he was a product of a lot research into genetics. However, even when the best is on paper, things go wrong. Jack has some health issues, undeniably. The breeder took him out of her breeding program early on, neutered him, and "chose" us to give him a happy life. We got him when he was 18 months old. Fortunately, his issues have not progressed. He is 5 now, and we will happily share however many years he can give us.


----------



## Jane917 (Dec 29, 2009)

This is sort of funny (but not to the breeder), but one of Jack's kennel mates was entered at Westminster a few years ago. I watch for him, but didn't see him. I looked at the list of dogs entered, and there was a not he had been withdrawn. When I asked the breeder, she explained that one of the other CKCSs she had in the same crate had chewed part of the ear (just the fur) off of the champ. One of the disqualifiers for the CKCS is that their fur cannot be modified in any way (except brushing and bathing, of course.) So there she was in NYC, with her pride and joy sporting ears of different length. You know how long their ears are. Actually, the leather is not much, it is all hair. Easy to chew off.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Wow, heartbreaking about the ear "trim" but funny in a way. I was there the year the Ibizan Hound won group--gorgeous dog--and the handler pulled the dog from further competition because of doggy stress. Said it wasn't worth putty her dog through the turmoil. What a disappointment for the breed, but kudos to the handler for putting the dog's welfare first.


----------



## Jane917 (Dec 29, 2009)

What a wonderful breeder/shower that owner/handle of the Ibizan Hound is! 

The CKCS with the short ear has gone on to have a successful stud life!

I thin one of my favorite dogs last night was the PBVG. These are very stubborn dogs and not the easiest to train. This PBVG (who ended up second in group) put on a strut that said " LOOK AT ME!!!!!"


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

@N. Gemini, you may or may not be aware that CERF has a reciprocal agreement with the OFA, under which CERF results are shared with the OFA database; in short, that means that dogs with an OFA record who also have a CERF will show the CERF result on their OFA record. So you can see CERF results by looking up a dog in the OFA database.


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

I was a little surprised to see that all three poodles who were entered (toy, miniature, standard) were black! I don't think of the black poodles as being nearly as popular as the white ones, or the creamy color (I think they call it apricot).

Made me feel good about my black (well, technically blue) poodle.

L


----------



## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

Westminster winner and David Frei will be on The View tomorrow.


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

I am glad I didn't waste my time to stay up and watch the grand finale (I got tired during the terriers). I would have picked any of the other dogs over that silly little Pekingese that won.

L


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Yes, lots of chatter on the dog writers lists where folks seem to have favored the Irish or Dob. *sigh*


----------



## SongbirdVB (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm with you, Leslie.  I thought the Dobie or Dalmation would win.  The Peke made me think of the Star Trek episode "The Trouble with Tribbles."


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Amyshojai said:


> Yes, lots of chatter on the dog writers lists where folks seem to have favored the Irish or Dob. *sigh*


And the Irish Setter gave birth to 15 puppies last year! She just got off her one year maternity leave and worked hard to get back in shape. She had my vote for that reason alone!

L


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

Dobe should have had it, hands down. She is a gorgeous example of the breed, "all there" without being overdone, and she was totally on last night. Flawless. Further, her breeder/handler/owner titles dogs in other sports, she's got 5 champion littermates including one who is either an agility champion or close, her dam has a schutzhund title and she is going to be shown in schutzhund as well. Working ability is VERY important in our breed.

Unfortunately the Pekingese does highlight the problem with extreme breeding in a few breeds. The show Peke is pretty much a non-functional dog. They can hardly walk, the coat is ridiculous, they have breathing issues and a lot of other genetic health issues. There were five other dogs in that ring that exemplified their breed standards and functionality (I do not care for show GSDs either, but that one was better than some, so I guess you could say six other dogs). To pick the Pekingese plays right into the hands of those who feel breeders care more about fashion and a specific look than health or functionality.

What do you expect from a judge who has had so many facelifts I was amazed she could talk, and who walked into the BIS ring at Westminster wearing what I could only describe as a wrinkled bedskirt.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

The judge is a marathon runner too, I understand, which made the Peke pick even more puzzling...say that fast five times!


----------



## Jane917 (Dec 29, 2009)

The previous message made me smile. I thought all the dogs were gorgeous, even the ones not in the final ring. I could never be a judge. I have never been a fan of pekes, but I never thought I would own a toy dog who really had no working purpose. Then again, I am now owned by Jack, the CKCS. I make up for it by also being owned by Kona, the brittany, who is as strong as an ox and has purpose-in-life to flush all birds, though he is only supposed to point. There are so many reasons we pick a breed, or a mutt, but really they pick us.


----------



## spotsmom (Jan 20, 2011)

When will a "real" dog   win this contest??  spoken by a Golden Retriever lover.  

"If it ain't over 30 lbs it ain't a dog"


----------



## momilp (Jan 11, 2010)

spotsmom said:


> When will a "real" dog  win this contest?? spoken by a Golden Retriever lover.
> 
> "If it ain't over 30 lbs it ain't a dog"


my beloved Nero, a beagle, is one sturdy little fellow, he isn't as tall as a golden retriever, but I can't stop him if he decides to run away. Do you think he qualifies, or he ain't?  I hope he does, otherwise he would be heartbroken


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

momilp said:


> my beloved Nero, a beagle, is one sturdy little fellow, he isn't as tall as a golden retriever, but I can't stop him if he decides to run away. Do you think he qualifies, or he ain't?  I hope he does, otherwise he would be heartbroken


Well, let's see...a Newf won. Josh probably tipped the scales at 150 pounds or so. *s* And I believe a Kerry Blue terrier won, again not a lightweight. The 'portable' dogs have an advantage in that they're more easily toured for media appearances after the show.


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

In the past few years a Newf, a Springer, a German Shorthaired Pointer and a Beagle have won; all very much "real" dogs. Last year's winner was a Scottish Deerhound, a very "orignal to type" dog with a lovely personality.

And as someone who has owned working-lines Dobermans for decades and who now owns Min Pins (not related, not a bred down version, they are a much older breed), I can tell you that small dogs are every bit as "real" as big dogs. Most small dogs are capable, intelligent, and very much DOGS. With a breed like the Peke being a notable exception, small dogs are just regular dogs in smaller packages.

Having been a big dog person all my life, I have found myself absolutely loving having a dog, with the traits, trainability, intelligence and working ability of any dog, in a size I can easily carry, that eats less, less to clean up afterwards, etc. And besides. They make me laugh every day. Don't diss the small dog if you haven't owned one.

As for Cavs, they're lovely little dogs and very "real." Their traditional role is as a companion and pet. And they excel at it. They do have some health issues caused by bouncing back from near extinction, but Cav breeders are working very hard on breeding healthy, happy dogs. It should be noted though that many small dogs had an actual job; for instance, my Min Pins are true Terriers at heart and were used as vermin hunters in Germany as long ago as the 1600s.


----------



## spotsmom (Jan 20, 2011)

Beagles are cool!  As are corgis.  Must admit my grandkids have a Havanese and it's pretty cute.  I just don't care for small dogs, as I consider them much more likely to be "nippy".  And I owned a mini schnauzer before, so I have had a small dog.


----------



## Jane917 (Dec 29, 2009)

Jack is my first small dog. He is not nippy at all, but no one has told him he is a dog.


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

Havanese and Mini Schnauzers both rock it in the agility world. Fast, drivey, tough little guys that rack up lots of awards.

Small dogs have a rep of being "nippy," but really it's because owners treat them like spoiled children, not dogs. With a big dog biting isn't accepted because it can do real damage. It's more tolerated in small dogs because it's not likely to put someone in the hospital. And small dogs are often over babied and not given appropriate training.

It is also true that small dogs are more easily hurt than big dogs, and after a bad experience, some small dogs will turn to nipping as a defense behavior. Min Pins have a huge rep for biting, but my dogs do NOT bite (and know darned well they are not allowed!)


----------



## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Mitzi says don't be hatin' on the Pekingese - she's quite proud of her breed tonight! Under all Malachy's coat is a little guy that probably looks a lot like her, except for the different color, of course. My Mitzi's tail is the only "Peke" thing about her - she does have a bodacious tail these days, almost drags the ground. And if I didn't get her groomed every few weeks, she would indeed look like an 11-lb fuzzy slipper. But she's my good girl - a rescue from hoarding sisters who had over 100 dogs in their small house. She was 7 when I got her 5 years ago - I think this pic was taken the day we got her, before her tail got so long. Watching the dog shows pre-Mitzi, I never would've dreamed I'd have had one of those little foo-foo walking footstools - but we love her dearly.


----------



## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

DD Graphix said:


> Small dogs have a rep of being "nippy," but really it's because owners treat them like spoiled children, not dogs. With a big dog biting isn't accepted because it can do real damage. It's more tolerated in small dogs because it's not likely to put someone in the hospital. And small dogs are often over babied and not given appropriate training.


So what you need is a combo big and small dog. What is said about Border Terriers -- BIG dog in a small dog's body.


----------



## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Awww, Mitzi! So cute. She deserves to prance proud for the next couple days.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Well ya know what? Every year the winner choice gets second guessed. There's so much goes into the choice--does the dog have a good/bad day, what's the judge like (personal pref does come into it), and on and on. 

Mitzi is lovely and how fortunate you found each other! Pekes are great pets, too! Sadly, in the show world often a particular trait that folks like gets overblown to the extreme which sometimes can be at health cost for the dog. 

Same is true in cats. The show Persian is lovely, gorgeous personality, sweet big-eyed face...but the coat is crippling if not foofed daily, the extreme brachy face causes breathing problems, the eyes are so prominent they can be easily damaged, some of the lines have serious PKD issues among other things...and the dog world does this with its breeds, too. A breed that can't reproduce except through C-section, for example, because of the extremes of conformation. 

Yes, there's a place for specific breeds. Absolutely, I understand the attraction and celebration of historical breeds. Sure, responsible breeders strive to eliminate these issues. When an "extreme" breed-type of dog is so publicly rewarded and held up as the supreme ideal it can be off-putting to those who seen the consequences of badly breed/cared for "extremes." *shrug*


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

Good post Amy. I think it's important for people to know that many/most show breeders ARE aware and sensitive to the few breeds who have seemed to run off the rails. It's a difficult process to stop, because it's pretty impossible to admit wrongness to the magnitude of some of these breeds. One of my good friends is a dedicated show GSD person, and I have a real problem with the breed, including the dog who won the herding group. It is no longer a functional structure, but she can't see it and WILL not see it; she sees a flying trot and is happy with that.

I have another friend who owns a totally awesome Czech bloodlines GSD with incredible structure, correct temperament and drives, who can work all day. She's been in GSD for decades too, and she sees the problem with the show sheperds that my other friend can't bring herself to admit.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

We had that breed separation in Australian Shepherds for awhile (the show lines vs. the working lines). A couple of things have salvaged the breed. One has been an emphasis among many breeders for the versatile, multi-titled dog - one that fit the breed standard well enough to earn a championship, but still possessed the instinct to earn working titles. Many affiliate clubs make a concerted effort to host not just conformation shows (which usually make money), but herding trials (which often lose money, because they're so expensive to put on). The other was the advent of agility competitions. Many show breeders learned that if they kept the athleticism, moderation and drive to produce agility dogs, they could attract more buyers, as well as accumulate additional titles on their breeding stock. In the last 10-15 years, I've seen the show lines become much more moderate (less bone) and more well-muscled. It has definitely affected overall type, too.

When I get to see dog shows on TV, I always root for the dog with the other titles, whether it's in the field, agility or obedience rings, or even therapy work. I love to see dogs using their brains and putting sound temperament to good purpose.


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

MichelleR said:


> Awww, Mitzi! So cute. She deserves to prance proud for the next couple days.


I think Mitzi is a whole lot cuter than the dog that won. Her face isn't as smooshed in.

L


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

DD Graphix said:


> Good post Amy. I think it's important for people to know that many/most show breeders ARE aware and sensitive to the few breeds who have seemed to run off the rails. It's a difficult process to stop, because it's pretty impossible to admit wrongness to the magnitude of some of these breeds. One of my good friends is a dedicated show GSD person, and I have a real problem with the breed, including the dog who won the herding group. It is no longer a functional structure, but she can't see it and WILL not see it; she sees a flying trot and is happy with that.
> 
> I have another friend who owns a totally awesome Czech bloodlines GSD with incredible structure, correct temperament and drives, who can work all day. She's been in GSD for decades too, and she sees the problem with the show sheperds that my other friend can't bring herself to admit.


Re: shepherds, YES YES YES! My Magic (in the avatar) is European style, his sire a German import (gorgeous sable, almost black he is so dark) and the breeder's foundation bitch from Fidelco. Love my breeder, she's a tracking dog judge and places dogs for performance Schutzhund to service dogs with kids, and always has a waiting list. It is very difficult to change when the "problem" issues are rewarded in the ring with wins. I also love hearing about the dogs with multiple titles (performance, etc) as well as those who volunteer as therapy animals.


----------



## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Leslie said:


> I think Mitzi is a whole lot cuter than the dog that won. Her face isn't as smooshed in.
> 
> L


Aw thanks - my FIL says she looks like she'd been chasing parked cars.


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

@Amy I think it's pretty telling that we pretty much never see an American Show Shepherd in a sport like agility. And the few that are most similar in physical type tend to be slow and to break down pretty quickly. The GSD that do well are from Euro working lines.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

DD Graphix said:


> @Amy I think it's pretty telling that we pretty much never see an American Show Shepherd in a sport like agility. And the few that are most similar in physical type tend to be slow and to break down pretty quickly. The GSD that do well are from Euro working lines.


True. And sad.

Have you read this blog? Take a look at the comments, too--some interesting comments/discussion:

http://www.honestdog.com/2012/02/15/westminster-steps-in-it/


----------



## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

@Amy, I've seen it, but there are some pretty glaring factual mistakes; namely that "AKC" decided to drop Pedigree. Um, no, they did not. This show is not run by the AKC. It is run by Westminster Kennel Club. Granted, WKC is probably the most well known kennel club in the country and with one of the most prestigious histories. But they are NOT "The AKC."

David Frei, who IS a WKC member, was interviewed on NPR about the Pedigree commercial change. I'm paraphrasing here, but basically, his point was not that they did not care about shelter dogs. There were two main points he made. First was that their contract with Pedigree specified that WKC was to have some input on commercial content. Pedigree ignored that provision even after repeated requests. In other words, Pedigree violated their contract with the WKC. And yes, WKC felt that this celebration of the best in dogs was not best served by lots of heart wrenching and deliberately depressing commercials about dogs in shelters. It was a pretty big dichotomy. It doesn't mean that the WKC (or AKC) does not care about shelter dogs. But they felt that the WKC show was not the place for that specific type of commercial.

It should also be noted that Purina is actually a far better fit for the show world than Pedigree. Many show breeders feed Pro Plan. I don't know a single one who feeds Pedigree. Further, Purina has been a HUGE supporter of the show world. They built a multi-million dollar event center just to hold dog shows; and prior to that they actually let clubs use their extensive grounds free of charge. Grounds are still free, it does cost money to rent the event center, but they have pro-rated the fees to help smaller clubs afford it. They have a reciprocal program with kennel clubs that has really helped them keep heads above water. In other words, Purina is a much more appropriate sponsor. And I don't have a problem with the WKC decision at all.

I do think the Peke was a poor choice and it's going to come back to kick them. But they didn't make the decision, the judge did. And while I can agree with parts of that post, all my respect for the author is lost in their inability to even do the tiniest bit of fact checking.


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

DD Graphix said:


> @Amy, I've seen it, but there are some pretty glaring factual mistakes;...
> 
> I do think the Peke was a poor choice and it's going to come back to kick them. But they didn't make the decision, the judge did. And while I can agree with parts of that post, all my respect for the author is lost in their inability to even do the tiniest bit of fact checking.


Yep, and the comments section pointed out the errors as you noted, that's why I suggest folks read the comments too. Lots of heavy hitters posted in the comments section. *s*

Purina has historically been very good for dog shows--and pet dogs--and cats. I was the national spokesperson on the cat side for several years for Cat Chow (on behavior aspect and training, NOT nutrition), and have visited the various facilities. Quite a lot on the cat side changed after the Nestle acquisition--of course Purina folks used to joke (probably still do!) that they are a DOG food company who just happens to make a few cat foods, too. *s* Oh, and they also own Tidy Cats. They do lots of good things for the pet world, I agree.


----------

