# A different take- a new way of talking with other writers-the writers bistro.



## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Even though I will always love this site for all it has given and continues to give me-connections with fellow writers, support, hints and tips and fantastic feedback, I find myself drawn to new ventures and new ways of thinking and talking with fellow authors and readers.

I have discovered this new forum/site which has taken my fancy. It's the pioneering spirit there that attracted me and I feel that, instead of being a rival to this forum, it would complement it. There, I found less restrictions and less moderation, which could be scary but at the same time liberating, like a trapeze act without a net; risky but oh so exciting. Letting your spirits soar can be dangerous. But fabulous fun as well. Life is for living and for exploring and trying new things.

I have already joined and having great fun already

http://writersbistro.proboards.com/index.cgi


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Just to make sure people are informed, it is a forum for writers only.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Caddy said:


> Just to make sure people are informed, it is a forum for writers only.


Really? I'm sure readers would add a lot of spice too.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I joined and know I will enjoy being both here and there....but I really need to get some work done.  Both places are far too enticing.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> I joined and know I will enjoy being both here and there....but I really need to get some work done. Both places are far too enticing.


I think you really go it it, Jeanne. Over there you can be more controversial, while here there is that safe haven. Between the two, you can express yourself as you want. But of course, they are both too enticing...


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Looks like a nice site. But I'm actually pretty fond of restrictions and moderation.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

It clearly states in their welcome that they are a Writers Stie only.  So I will be staying away from there.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

telracs said:


> It clearly states in their welcome that they are a Writers Stie only. So I will be staying away from there.


Oh, that's a pity. Maybe we can make them change that.

In any case- writers can be naughty over there and good over here. A bit like hanging out in a slightly forbidden bar after school


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm glad to hear you don't intend the Bistro to be competition for the Writers' Cafe, as the email I received inviting me to participate made reference to "escapees" from this site, and seemed to express distaste and contempt for the moderation over here. I am glad to know that is not the purpose of the site, and that it's intended as a complement to the WC, not as a rivalry. I'm fond of the Writers' Cafe and have absolutely no desire to "escape."  But the more writers' forums, the merrier.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Not sure joining a MikeAngel forum is for me.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> I'm glad to hear you don't intend the Bistro to be competition for the Writers' Cafe, as the email I received inviting me to participate made reference to "escapees" from this site, and seemed to express distaste and contempt for the moderation over here. I am glad to know that is not the purpose of the site, and that it's intended as a complement to the WC, not as a rivalry. I'm fond of the Writers' Cafe and have absolutely no desire to "escape."  But the more writers' forums, the merrier.


Absolutely. I intend to use both sites as they are so completely different. The new one brings a new dimension to writers interaction.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Absolutely. I intend to use both sites as they are so completely different. The new one brings a new dimension to writers interaction.


I would respectfully suggest that people associated with the Bistro should avoid sending out emails that criticize this site and its moderators and which refer to "escaping" this forum, then. It gives the unfortunate impression that the Bistro is trying to undermine the Writer's Cafe, and that is obviously not the impression you meant to give.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Considering the (ultimate) source, Ellen, I think that's the exact impression desired. 

Pass.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> I would respectfully suggest that people associated with the Bistro should avoid sending out emails that criticize this site and its moderators and which refer to "escaping" this forum, then. It gives the unfortunate impression that the Bistro is trying to undermine the Writer's Cafe, and that is obviously not the impression you meant to give.


I don't run this site and I got no such e-mail. I was told about it by a writer friend and went to have a look. Thought it looked like fun and thought it was different and new. there is no mention of this site over there, as far as I have seen.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I don't run this site and I got no such e-mail.


Ah, I beg your pardon. I thought perhaps you were involved in its development. I apologize for my error. The person inviting me to join the site said that most of the members were "escapees" from this site, and made reference to the "censorship, deleted posts, warnings, bannings, time outs, and over-administration" here. You can see why I was somewhat put off, I'm sure. You may see the Bistro as a "complement" to this one, but I'm not sure the person I heard from concurs. It seemed presented as a rival site rather than a complement.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> Ah, I beg your pardon. I thought perhaps you were involved in its development. I apologize for my error. The person inviting me to join the site said that most of the members were "escapees" from this site, and made reference to the "censorship, deleted posts, warnings, bannings, time outs, and over-administration" here. You can see why I was somewhat put off, I'm sure. You may see the Bistro as a "complement" to this one, but I'm not sure the person I heard from concurs. It seemed presented as a rival site rather than a complement.


No, I'm not involved in the site other than being one of the first to join. And that's not at all the impression I got. But as I haven't been around here for quite some time, I am not familiar with anyone being negative to this forum.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

EllenFisher said:


> I would respectfully suggest that people associated with the Bistro should avoid sending out emails that criticize this site and its moderators and which refer to "escaping" this forum, then. It gives the unfortunate impression that the Bistro is trying to undermine the Writer's Cafe, and that is obviously not the impression you meant to give.


I thought the name was a bit odd, and yeah, looking at the site I get the impression it was started by people who think KB is too moderated and they just want a spot for authors. I wish them well, but I think this should go under the "What happens on a different forum stays on that forum".


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> Ah, I beg your pardon. I thought perhaps you were involved in its development. I apologize for my error. The person inviting me to join the site said that most of the members were "escapees" from this site, and made reference to the "censorship, deleted posts, warnings, bannings, time outs, and over-administration" here. You can see why I was somewhat put off, I'm sure. You may see the Bistro as a "complement" to this one, but I'm not sure the person I heard from concurs. It seemed presented as a rival site rather than a complement.


I received an invite, but I'm not "escaping" anything here. This place is my coffee break. I think there's room for an "author only" place too.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

and let me just remind everyone that guests can view profiles on that site, so comments made about this board may be noticed.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Susan, How disingenuous.   You pop on here talking-up another forum touting how great it is and yet your post THERE talks about how you are coming here to KB to try and get Mikey more members. 

Would you like me to quote your post there? Seems like you are trying to drum up business by taking it from KB--looks a little lonely over there. Have fun.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)




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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Yeah, it is writers only.  That is what I read when I looked at it.  I am not escaping either, but may go in there once in awhile.  I really don't have enought time to do what I need to do already!


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> Susan, How disingenuous.  You pop on here talking-up another forum touting how great it is and yet your post THERE talks about how you are coming here to KB to try and get Mikey more members.
> 
> Would you like me to quote your post there? Seems like you are trying to drum up business by taking it from KB--looks a little lonely over there. Have fun.


Yes, I did say I'd come over here to try to get new members. Don't see anything wrong wit that. I like to see new ventures and new takes on things. As to 'taking' anything from KB... Isn't anyone free to come and go as they please? Why not raise the profile of a new site that might be a little different and welcoming to those who want to let their hair down.? It's so different from KB that I don't feel it is a rival site.

It's not a commercial forum and it's not trying to sell anything. (And, ahem, my name is not Susan).


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> As to 'taking' anything from KB... Isn't anyone free to come and go as they please? Why not raise the profile of a new site that might be a little different and welcoming to those who want to let their hair down.? It's so different form KB that I don't feel it is a rival site.


I agree, but having glanced through the comments on the Bistro, I can't help feeling there is a sense of rivalry for some folks over there. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone's trying to tell anyone else what to do. Plenty of us are regulars on numerous forums.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

as i said, what happens there should stay there, but realize that what gets said there is not private to there and while readers may not be welcome there, they will be looking at it.  and making monetary decisions.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm also on the new site, and I'm with Lisa; while I don't have anything to do with its management, I'm not escaping from anything. The appeal to me is a forum for writers.  I like interacting with readers, but I think there's a place for both worlds.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> realize that what gets said there is not private to there and while readers may not be welcome there, they will be looking at it. and making monetary decisions.


Always good advice. Even when a board is not modded, it's good to remember that readers might be forming opinions based on posts. Keeping it professional is always a good idea.



> what happens there should stay there


I agree, and I'll shut up now.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

It would be more genuine if you were up front that you are involved in promoting the site and sending out emails and FB and coming to KB to get more members--wouldn't it?

Instead of: _"Even though I will always love this site for all it has given and continues to give me-connections with fellow writers,_ _support, hints and tips and fantastic feedback, I find myself drawn to new ventures and new ways of thinking and talking with fellow authors and readers.

I have discovered this new forum/site which has taken my fancy. It's the pioneering spirit there that attracted me and I feel that, instead of being a rival to this forum, it would complement it. There, I found less restrictions and less moderation, which could be scary but at the same time liberating, like a trapeze act without a net; risky but oh so exciting. Letting your spirits soar can be dangerous. But fabulous fun as well. Life is for living and for exploring and trying new things."_

Honestly--you were the 2nd member and you "discovered" it. You could have just told the truth.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> It would be more genuine if you were up front that you are involved in promoting the site and sending out emails and FB and coming to KB to get more members--wouldn't it?
> 
> Instead of: _"Even though I will always love this site for all it has given and continues to give me-connections with fellow writers,_ _support, hints and tips and fantastic feedback, I find myself drawn to new ventures and new ways of thinking and talking with fellow authors and readers.
> 
> ...


I have not sent any e-mails about this site to anyone. I have posted on FB and twitter to try to get it going only since yesterday. And yes, I discovered it through a friend. There were already a lot of interesting threads there when I looked it up.

THAT is the truth.

I'm afraid I find it very offensive to be accused of lying in this manner.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I have not sent any e-mails about this site.


The email I received was not from Susanne.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Susanne OLeary said:


> I have not sent any e-mails about this site. I have posted on FB and twitter to try to get it going. And yes, I discovered it through a friend. THAT is the truth.


So your friend was the first member and you became the 2nd. Splendid. Now I understand.  Ok. No emails, just FB and twitter. Good luck. You could have just been more honest and stop wiggling. Your posts are there for anyone to see.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> So your friend was the first member and you became the 2nd. Splendid. Now I understand.  Ok. No emails, just FB and twitter. Good luck. You could have just been more honest and stop wiggling. Your posts are there for anyone to see.


Jackz 4000 - 
Why do you care? Either join, don't, or lurk. We all find out one way or another. Does it matter how she found out or that she wants to share? Is this high school?


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

Personally I like moderation on sites I post to. If nothing else it means that I don't have to read a whole bunch of abusive posts from other posters which tends to happen elsewhere.

But also remember the basics of posting, that you should never post in anger, and always remember that whatever you post will be lost on the internet forever. You'd hate to come back in ten years time and find a post you wrote in anger or foolishness, being placed at your door. Moderation (good) prevents that happening.

For me the other main writing site I use is writing forums and it is well moderated.

http://www.writingforums.org/

Cheers, Greg.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> So your friend was the first member and you became the 2nd. Splendid. Now I understand.  Ok. No emails, just FB and twitter. Good luck. You could have just been more honest and stop wiggling. Your posts are there for anyone to see.


Excuse me, but what is your problem? I don't know what number I was in the membership. There were more than two when I joined.

Why is this such an issue? If anyone wants to join they can and will be more than welcome, I'm sure. And if not, they don't have to.

Raising awareness of something new is not, to my knowledge morally wrong. And Kb as a site is very big and should be able to take and welcome new ideas.

I have been a member here on KB for about two years now. I have been very happy until now.

But I have to say there is quite a bit of animosity creeping in here, which is sad to see.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Jackz 4000 -
> Why do you care? Either join, don't, or lurk. We all find out one way or another. Does it matter how she found out or that she wants to share? Is this high school?


Seems more like Kindergarten to me...


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

No problem no animosity. If you post there that you are coming here to get more members and then post your wonderful "discovery" post here? I get a funny feeling. Good luck.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> No problem no animosity. If you post there that you are coming here to get more members and then post your wonderful "discovery" post here? I get a funny feeling. Good luck.


YES! I wanted new members and support for a new site I discovered. You finally got it.

Good luck to you too.


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## GPB (Oct 2, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> If you post there that you are coming here to get more members and then post your wonderful "discovery" post here? I get a funny feeling.


So she posted there that she would come here and try to recruit new members. Then she came here and started this thread to recruit new members. That does indeed sound like a conspiracy.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Gutman said:


> I'm also on the new site, and I'm with Lisa; while I don't have anything to do with its management, I'm not escaping from anything. The appeal to me is a forum for writers. I like interacting with readers, but I think there's a place for both worlds.


This.


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

telracs said:


> It clearly states in their welcome that they are a Writers Stie only. So I will be staying away from there.


Freudian typo-slip of the year. 

(Mud-wrestlin' time!)


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Steve Silkin said:


> Freudian typo-slip of the year.
> 
> (Mud-wrestlin' time!)


Thanks Steve, but I do know how to spell sty.....

Oh, and their admin is stating that readers are welcome, since if they post there, they are writing, right?

Sorry, not buying that.

But I do believe there is room enough in the vast universe for all kinds of fora, so as long as they don't bash us, I won't bash them. Actually, no matter what they do, I don't plan on bashing them. I'm not into mud wrestling.


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## Thomas Watson (Mar 8, 2012)

Unmoderate fora hold no interest for me. In my experience, regardless of the topic, the signal to noise ratio on such always drops to the point of rendering the place useless.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Susanne OLeary said:


> Oh, that's a pity. Maybe we can make them change that.
> 
> In any case- writers can be naughty over there and good over here. A bit like hanging out in a slightly forbidden bar after school


If it allows writers to be more open and say what they want, maybe allowing readers there would be a bad thing, you know? I assume the point is to not to have to mind your P's and Q's (what are P's and Q's anyway?). If you're going to interact with your potential readers, you really should be a bit more...conscious?...of what you say.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Greg Banks said:


> If it allows writers to be more open and say what they want, maybe allowing readers there would be a bad thing, you know? I assume the point is to not to have to mind your P's and Q's (what are P's and Q's anyway?). If you're going to interact with your potential readers, you really should be a bit more...conscious?...of what you say.


I think a level of politeness should be the norm no matter who one is talking to. After all, aren't writers also potential readers?


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## Thomas Watson (Mar 8, 2012)

telracs said:


> I think a level of politeness should be the norm no matter who one is talking to. After all, aren't writers also potential readers?


I agree that it should be. But there's something about sitting behind a keyboard that seems to generate a sort of unwholesome sense of empowerment in some folks. On a moderated astronomy forum on which I spend a lot of time (used to be a moderator there) the mods call it "keyboard courage." It seems to cancel out simple civility in no time.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

telracs said:


> I think a level of politeness should be the norm no matter who one is talking to. After all, aren't writers also potential readers?


I agree. I like the moderation here, keeps it from degenerating to insults like almost all unmoderated boards I've ever belonged to.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I think I would miss the thrill of ... seeing those little locked icons when a thread goes supernova. 

Then again, an unmoderated place might force my skin to grow thicker, faster.

However, I already drain enough life force on one forum ... do I need another addiction?


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## Randirogue (Apr 25, 2011)

Eep! This is getting a little snarled isn't it.

I thank Susanne for the information. I politely decline trying it out for a couple of reasons. 1) I can't keep up on my preexisting socializing and networking. 2) I like interacting with readers here ~ both as a reader and as a writer. 3) I'm content with the level of moderation here, particularly with regards to self-promotion. Without it, I foresee the slippery slope of self-promotion exhaustion that has turned off readers and writers in other situations. Then I lose out on a good place and have to find a whole new one. ~_~ooo

But, I wish those that plan to participate in the recommended site will enjoy it.



Spoiler



(So... how diplomatic was that? ~_~ooo)


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Wow...take a nap and look what happens.  I never got an email dissing the WC.  I have been here well over a year and this place is part of my blood. 

I like both places. But on days I want to yak on the net with other writers, I check out the threads on one...if there is nothing I want to talk about, I check the other one.  Today is my self-determined day off, so I've been here, there and everywhere.  Back to writing work tomorrow. But today was fun!  I like having more than one home.

I'm sorry people are looking at it as an us vs them type of thing. I have invited some friends and tried to mention it as an additional place for writers.  I know a lot of writers here also post on AW...so it seems common to travel around.  What the big problem?  

If someone got an invite that sounded the way Ellen said, then that is unfortunate and feelings may have been running high.  But I didn't get one like that.  Anyway, stop picking on Suzanne.  She isn't the only one who got in on the early days...I did too.  I think I was third or fourth, but who cares?  I like you...I like them...I don't want to have to decide between the two...that is childish.


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## Gabriela Popa (Apr 7, 2010)

Caddy said:


> Just to make sure people are informed, it is a forum for writers only.


Show me one reader who's not a writer nowadays


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Gabriela Popa said:


> Show me one reader who's not a writer nowadays


raises hand. i'm not. and actually most people on KB aren't.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Gabriela Popa said:


> Show me one reader who's not a writer nowadays


It's been 42 years since I wrote anything for high school English. If that makes me a writer OK, but I feel I am just a reader.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

So far things are really fun and friendly over there.

Great to see so many familiar faces. And also to see the the forum is actually very different from this one. It would be nice to have some people from my side of the pond there too, of course.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2012)

> If it hasn't been made clear, the Bistro is a place where writers can gather and be themselves, without Big Brother breathing down their neck in the form of Administrators on steriods.


I don't want to be on any site where people are so thin-skinned that they think KB is overmoderated. I've seen overmoderated (lulu...cough...lulu). Seriously, if people think Betsy is bad, do they want to deal with an UNMODERATED SITH WITCH?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Stepping in to say that there is no truth to the rumors that I use steroids.  Those are rumors spread by people who want to take me down. I've passed the drug tests Harvey gives all the moderators.      Unsubstantiated rumors, I tell you!  Just like Lance! 

Betsy


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Stepping in to say that there is no truth to the rumors that I use steroids. Those are rumors spread by people who want to take me down. I've passed the drug tests Harvey gives all the moderators.  Unsubstantiated rumors, I tell you! Just like Lance!
> 
> Betsy


I never believed that, Betsy. I always knew your strength came from within.


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## Randirogue (Apr 25, 2011)

Susanne OLeary said:


> I never believed that, Betsy. I always knew your strength came from within.


And her needles.

...KNITTING needles...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Randirogue said:


> And her needles.
> 
> ...KNITTING needles...


You're just saying that to torment me, aren't you. 

Betsy


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## Randirogue (Apr 25, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> You're just saying that to torment me, aren't you.
> 
> Betsy


I would only dare to torment you if I liked getting poked by sharp, pointy sticks... In pairs. 

*Edit to add:* I know quilting doesn't utilize knitting needles. I'm only referring to them to needle the lovely Betsy out of silliness.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Greg Banks said:


> If it allows writers to be more open and say what they want, maybe allowing readers there would be a bad thing, you know? I assume the point is to not to have to mind your P's and Q's (what are P's and Q's anyway?). If you're going to interact with your potential readers, you really should be a bit more...conscious?...of what you say.


I think you should always be yourself. After all, your own voice comes through in your writing, so it does too in whatever and however you say it in a discussion. I like to speak my mind but I always try to do it in a polite and considerate way. What's wrong with a lively discussion anyway?


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## pamclaughton (Feb 21, 2011)

Susanne OLeary said:


> Even though I will always love this site for all it has given and continues to give me-connections with fellow writers, support, hints and tips and fantastic feedback, I find myself drawn to new ventures and new ways of thinking and talking with fellow authors and readers.
> 
> I have discovered this new forum/site which has taken my fancy. It's the pioneering spirit there that attracted me and I feel that, instead of being a rival to this forum, it would complement it. There, I found less restrictions and less moderation, which could be scary but at the same time liberating, like a trapeze act without a net; risky but oh so exciting. Letting your spirits soar can be dangerous. But fabulous fun as well. Life is for living and for exploring and trying new things.
> 
> ...


Susanne,
I'm glad you posted this. I love coming here, but would be happy to visit other writer sites as well, especially where there are other Indie writers.


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## BEAST (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks for sharing Susanne. I for one have no problem with someone sharing a new resource that I, as an adult, can evaluate for myself. Please continue to what you find in the future, even if you are the first member of something new.


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## Thomas Watson (Mar 8, 2012)

Susanne OLeary said:


> What's wrong with a lively discussion anyway?


Nothing, so long as it remains civil and informative, which is where unmoderated fora have failed me every single time. Once bitten... (More than once, actually.)

But best of luck with it all the same.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

I'm a member.  Stop by and tell me to bugger off.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Stepping in to say that there is no truth to the rumors that I use steroids. Those are rumors spread by people who want to take me down. I've passed the drug tests Harvey gives all the moderators.  Unsubstantiated rumors, I tell you! Just like Lance!
> 
> Betsy


But, is there any truth to the rumors that this new competition will force KB to relax its rules and allow those of us with a more...shall we say, colorful vocabulary to express ourselves?


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## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

Greg Banks said:


> If it allows writers to be more open and say what they want, maybe allowing readers there would be a bad thing, you know? I assume the point is to not to have to mind your P's and Q's *(what are P's and Q's anyway?)*. If you're going to interact with your potential readers, you really should be a bit more...conscious?...of what you say.


The saying goes back to times when printers set type by hand. Each letter was on the end of a separate stick of lead, like a stamp. Just as rubber stamps are reverse images, so were the letters. It was all too easy to mistake _p_s for _q_s when setting type or when sorting the cleaned type back into the proper box.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> But, is there any truth to the rumors that this new competition will force KB to relax its rules and allow those of us with a more...shall we say, colorful vocabulary to express ourselves?


I haven't heard those rumors, but, um, no.  Trust me, I know and use words in other venues that I don't use here. And somehow still manage to express myself.



Mind your p's and q's, vrabinec! Hey, did I ever tell you my grandfather was Czech? 

(Thanks, wordwrestler!)

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Cool. Was he first generation?


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## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

You're welcome, Betsy!

There's actually some disagreement about that saying's origin, but I think the type-setting explanation is the most accepted, and as a book lover, I like it the best!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Stepping in to say that there is no truth to the rumors that I use steroids. Those are rumors spread by people who want to take me down. I've passed the drug tests Harvey gives all the moderators.  Unsubstantiated rumors, I tell you! Just like Lance!
> 
> Betsy


That's what YOU say, but wait until I post those photos of you hiding behind a quilt buying the "good stuff". 

I wouldn't mind finding a forum dedicated to writers just chatting but one mainly focused on how bad KB is doesn't appeal to me. *shrug*

Edit: And I have been around the internet too long to be fooled into thinking that a no moderation policy is a good thing.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> Cool. Was he first generation?


Yes, he was 12, I believe, when he came to this country. I don't know a whole lot more...I'll have to talk to my cousins. One of my cousins has recently been delving into the family history.

Betsy


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> But, is there any truth to the rumors that this new competition will force KB to relax its rules and allow those of us with a more...shall we say, colorful vocabulary to express ourselves?


You could check out the KDP author forum, vrabinec. Supposedly profanity isn't allowed, but you basically have to threaten to assassinate someone before Amazon will step in and do something. Definitely a no-holds-barred environment. It can be fun, but it's also annoying at times.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JRTomlin said:


> That's what YOU say, but wait until I post those photos of you hiding behind a quilt buying the "good stuff".


Hey, I thought you said if I bought your book, you'd hid those. 



> And I have been around the internet too long to be fooled into thinking that a no modeation is a good thing.


*saves screenshot* I'll remind you of that some time, JRT!

Betsy


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

pamclaughton said:


> Susanne,
> I'm glad you posted this. I love coming here, but would be happy to visit other writer sites as well, especially where there are other Indie writers.


Pam, I think you'll love this site then. A bistro, where they serve virtual spiritual food for writers. A bistro is a more relaxed type of restaurant, where you can pick and choose and arrive at any time, dressed the way you like. Metaphorically speaking. here is the link again for those who might have missed it: http://writersbistro.proboards.com/


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hey, I thought you said if I bought your book, you'd hid those.


Fiction writers are professional liars. *evil cackle*


> *saves screenshot* I'll remind you of that some time, JRT!
> 
> Betsy


  

Edit: Seriously, with my temper, you don't even want to THINK about what an unmoderated site would be like. Did I ever mention that I might be just a tad temperamental?


----------



## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Thomas Watson said:


> Nothing, so long as it remains civil and informative, which is where unmoderated fora have failed me every single time. Once bitten... (More than once, actually.)
> 
> But best of luck with it all the same.


Who said there is no moderation on the new site? There is and it's explained very clearly in one of the threads.

The moderation will be about personal attacks and nothing else. Freedom of expression but not freedom to attack other people.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> You could check out the KDP author forum, vrabinec. Supposedly profanity isn't allowed, but you basically have to threaten to assassinate someone before Amazon will step in and do something. Definitely a no-holds-barred environment. It can be fun, but it's also annoying at times.


You really wanna see some fists flying, go to an unmoderated political forum. Zoiks.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> You really wanna see some fists flying, go to an unmoderated political forum. Zoiks.


Have you joined the bistro yet? I think you'd enjoy it. And vice versa.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> You really wanna see some fists flying, go to an unmoderated political forum. Zoiks.


Nelly. I'll be skipping that, methinks!


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

GavinFletcher said:


> Thanks for sharing Susanne. I for one have no problem with someone sharing a new resource that I, as an adult, can evaluate for myself. Please continue to what you find in the future, even if you are the first member of something new.


And thank you for that, Gavin.

I'm a free spirit and will always look for new, exciting ventures. I love taking a walk on the wild side.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Regarding P's and Q's.  I had never heard the printing version.  I heard that it stood for Pints and Quarts from the old Tavern days.  Bar patrons would run tabs and before they left, as a reminder to pay up the bartender would say, "Gentlemen, mind your pints and quarts!" Which soon shorted to mind your P's and Q's.  

In regards to other forums, I wouldn't be at one where it is ugly or mean.  I haven't seen that yet. Just writing talk.  I like going to different forums, except the one that really is mean and hates indies...or the word "indies."


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Susanne OLeary said:


> here is the link again for those who might have missed it: http://writersbistro.proboards.com/


It says that you have to register to view the forum, Susanne. That seems contrary to the purpose you stated.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Jeff said:


> It says that you have to register to view the forum, Susanne. That seems contrary to the purpose you stated.


I think this is new and because guests have been posting. Just heard this. But what would it hurt to register?


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Susanne OLeary said:


> Freedom of expression but not freedom to attack other people.


Dang, what's the fun in that? 

And being an erotica writer, I always thought 'Mind your P's and Q's' meant...

Well, I better not go there, or I'll be joining Mikey in banland.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

I find it amusing  that one of the "charter" members posts that he is using an computer address masker to check up on KB but they now don't want any guests to view that site.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Susanne OLeary said:


> I think this is new and because guests have been posting. Just heard this. But what would it hurt to register?


I guess it wouldn't hurt. I just wanted to take a look before joining. Frankly, I'm not sure if I'd have anything useful to say in a "writers only" forum. With the exception of answering the occasional technical question, I spend most of my time on KB's non-author boards.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Susanne OLeary said:


> I think this is new and because guests have been posting. Just heard this. But what would it hurt to register?


most sites allow guests to post. does the freedom of expression not extend to them?


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Jeff said:


> I guess it wouldn't hurt. I just wanted to take a look before joining. Frankly, I'm not sure if I'd have anything useful to say in a "writers only" forum. With the exception of answering the occasional technical question, I spend most of my time on KB's non-author boards.


Answering technical questions would be hugely appreciated, I'm sure.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

telracs said:


> most sites allow guests to post. does the freedom of expression not extend to them?


Now you are confusing me. I thought you had no interest in this site?

Of course there is freedom of expression. More so than anywhere else. Don't forget that this site only started two days ago and is already hopping. But there are few kinks that have to be ironed out in the beginning.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Actually, I just looked in without logging in. I think you'll find you can take a peek now without registering.

Must have been some admin setting they changed.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I checked into this and it was a temporary glitch and is fixed now.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Susanne OLeary said:


> Have you joined the bistro yet?


Sure, why not? I join every writer's forum I can. You never know where an interesting conversation's gonna start up.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> Sure, why not? I join every writer's forum I can. You never know where an interesting conversation's gonna start up.


You can be sure there will be lots of that in this one.

http://writersbistro.proboards.com/


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

telracs said:


> I think a level of politeness should be the norm no matter who one is talking to. After all, aren't writers also potential readers?


Of course, but that's sort of like asking if we shouldn't all throw guns away. That would be a good idea, but a) It's rather unlikely to happen, and b) If you're standing on a shooting range, the question is not really all that applicable. If the site is what I understand it to be, then the point is to provide a place where writers do not have to mind their manners. It's not a site to sell yourself, it's a site for writers to commune with each other. There's nothing wrong with that. Hell, I used to help administrate a site like that. It was a workshopping website as well, though.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

My impression, which could be wrong, is that this is a site that was set up by Mikey because he was mad at KB? 

He'd hardly like me to join since he doesn't like my sexual orientation, but I'm sure it will be a home to a lot of people. (Not for that reason, I'm sure) I don't find that a lack of moderation adds to my ability to commune with other writer. It's all courses for horses and what not.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Greg Banks said:


> Of course, but that's sort of like asking if we shouldn't all throw guns away. That would be a good idea, but a) It's rather unlikely to happen, and b) If you're standing on a shooting range, the question is not really all that applicable. If the site is what I understand it to be, then the point is to provide a place where writers do not have to mind their manners. It's not a site to sell yourself, it's a site for writers to commune with each other. There's nothing wrong with that. Hell, I used to help administrate a site like that. It was a workshopping website as well, though.


No, I don't want to ban guns. But I do suggest you keep your gun holstered unless you want someone else to shoot you first. Or you're on a shooting range and pointing it at a target. I don't plan on being anyone's target, thanks.

My personal philosphy? "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose."


----------



## NRWick (Mar 22, 2011)

I joined the site before this thread was more than 3 or 4 posts long and as the thread continues, the bistro continues to rub me the wrong way. While I've been looking for a small writer's forum to go to in addition to KB, I get an unsettled feeling when a forum is built out of spite. Even though great things have come from doing something out of spite, reading some of the posts over there, I feel uncomfortable being associated with it. Which is also why I deleted my account. Again, I'm not trying to be a hater, nor am I trying to judge too harshly, but it's about whether or not one feels comfortable.

As for the "unmoderated" aspect, I don't know how to feel on that either. While I get the reasoning, it concerns me a little. The key to a successful discourse community is to feel safe to discuss things, but how can you feel safe when it's a free-for-all or the moderation is ambiguous? Why are personal attacks not okay, but non-personal attacks are okay? I would think attacks of any kind will lead to a lack of that safety one needs to feel in order to participate.

But, I hope everyone who decides to stick around over there has tons of fun!


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

NRWick said:


> I joined the site before this thread was more than 3 or 4 posts long and as the thread continues, the bistro continues to rub me the wrong way. While I've been looking for a small writer's forum to go to in addition to KB, I get a unsettled feeling when a forum is built out of spite. Even though great things have come from doing something out of spite, reading some of the posts over there, I feel uncomfortable being associated with it. Which is also why I deleted my account. Again, I'm not trying to be a hater, nor am I trying to judge too harshly, but it's about whether or not one feels comfortable.
> 
> As for the "unmoderated" aspect, I don't know how to feel on that either. While I get the reasoning, it concerns me a little. The key to a successful discourse community is to feel safe to discuss things, but how can you feel safe when it's a free for all or the moderation is ambiguous? Why are personal attacks not okay, but non-personal attacks are okay? I would think attacks of any kind will lead to a lack of that safety one needs to feel in order to participate.
> 
> But, I hope everyone who decides to stick around over there has tons of fun!


Yes, we will. I don't have the same impression as you at all. I haven't been here lately so I can't comment on any spite about what has happened here. I like the new site and this one too, so I will hop in and out of both.


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## NRWick (Mar 22, 2011)

Susanne OLeary said:


> Yes, we will. I don't have the same impression as you at all. I haven't been here lately so I can't comment on any spite about what has happened here. I like the new site and this one too, so I will hop in and out of both.


That's good! I'm glad for you, I really am. However, my own search continues.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

NRWick said:


> That's good! I'm glad for you, I really am. However, my own search continues.


well, you have to find what's right for you, of course. We're all different with our own take on things. Good luck with your search.


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## Boris Guzo (May 31, 2012)

I only skimmed through, but from what I read, this sounds like something happened on KB, so some people are starting their own board.

I'm just a newbie on KB, but I'm old enough to have seen my share of the internet. Even in the days of BBSes, it was simple, common, plain courtesy not to advertise other sites on some similar one.

Most forums outright prohibit this, and bans fly when someone breaks this agreeable rule.

The fact that KB mods has let this thread grow this far is imho a positive result on the test of "freedom of speech". I'm in no way related to the mods or the board itself (I imagine it to be a corkboard outside a cafe).

That being said, I honestly wonder what would happen if I joined this new forum, and start posting recruitment ads for KB.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Well, technically, since they state that the only thing they moderate is personal attacks (at least, that's what it said last time I looked) - you can post ads for whatever you like! Designer watches, cheap meds, Viagra... 

Yep - I think they need to close that little loophole in the no/low moderation policy, or things could get very spammy over there!  Requiring that posters be authors won't help - as most people trying to sell something to writers have at least one book out.  Sales spam is annoying and turns people off - so it wouldn't be great for recruitment and retention.

Seriously though.  It's not for me - and I'm quite happy here.  However, I know I've seen a couple of people post over the last year or so that they'd like an author's only forum, so I wish them well with it.  I don't have time for another forum and I like to wear both my writer and reader hats, so KB suits me just fine.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

Wow.  All these conspiracy theories about this other board. 

Here's how it happened for me:

I saw a post by a member here about another board.
I went and looked.
It stated it was for writers and not readers.
I thought that might be interesting.
I joined.

The board founders said they wanted less moderation.  OK.  God Bless America. Their right to start a board for whatever reason they want.

I don't see what the big deal is.  Maybe some might think there were some cheap shots at the mods of this board posted over there, but I'm sure the moderators here are mature enough to let that roll off of them. I did not post any cheap shots.  I just want to talk to writers wherever I can.

I appreciate that there are many places--including this fine establishment--where we can have discourse about what we love: reading and writing.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

You wanna know what my big deal is gutman?

A board with a name clearly ripped off from the Writers Cafe here.
Members there commenting about how bad this board is and then posting how much they love this board here.
Members there blantantly copying posts from here and posting them back on thier board and making snarky comments.
The admin there suddenly being concerned about spam, AFTER someone here comments that that might be a problem.

I feel that the internet is big enough for all the boards you want.  But if you want to have a board, have it. Say you have a new board and invite people to join.  Then go and post there but don't insult my intelligence here.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, this is turning into a WHOA...What Happens On Another Site stays on that site.

Let's move on.  I'm running out of steroids.

Betsy


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks, this is turning into a WHOA...What Happens On Another Site stays on that site.
> 
> Let's move on. I'm running out of steroids.
> 
> Betsy


I agree, and I'm sorry, but he asked....

And let me how that the "other site" learns that attitude. What happens here stays here, what happens there, stays there.

And with that note, I'll ignoring this thread from now on.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I think there's something in the water that's got the writers and others all angsty lately. I see a lot of vitriol on the threads recently. And there are some folks who only surface to spew out hate about hating this and hating that. It's never anything that would get them locked down, though. Once a day I swear I'm going to quit internet forums, period, but there are so many lovely people too. It's tough.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

telracs said:


> You wanna know what my big deal is gutman?
> 
> A board with a name clearly ripped off from the Writers Cafe here.
> Members there commenting about how bad this board is and then posting how much they love this board here.
> ...


*ducks from china being thrown at him*

Okay, okay, I see what your big deal is! I'm sorry it all makes you so angry!

(It _is _hot in the City right now. I still miss it, though...)


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Gutman said:


> *ducks from china being thrown at him*
> 
> Okay, okay, I see what your big deal is! I'm sorry it all makes you so angry!
> 
> (It _is _hot in the City right now. I still miss it, though...)


Gutman, I'm not angry, I'm just less than thrilled by people trying to insult my intelligence. In fact, I'm wryly amused by it.

But as Betsy says, what happens there should stay there. I hope people who want something good out of it get it.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

dalya said:


> I think there's something in the water that's got the writers and others all angsty lately. I see a lot of vitriol on the threads recently. And there are some folks who only surface to spew out hate about hating this and hating that. It's never anything that would get them locked down, though. Once a day I swear I'm going to quit internet forums, period, but there are so many lovely people too. It's tough.


*sweeping up broken china*

Well, I think _this_ sentiment is lovely, and you are for posting it. Also, I think your covers are lovely.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

A friend of mine frequents a moderated, popular skin-care board. Apparently, there is another board, a secret one, where they make fun of people on the main board.

I can see how this would happen. Sometimes I talk to my husband about things that are said on here, and my feelings. It's a very odd thing, to have a messageboard a big part of your life, such that you feel things and think about it when you're not even online. I haven't signed up for that other board, but I would imagine if their intent was to make fun of us over there, they wouldn't be inviting people openly.

Maybe I should go over there and talk about my complicated feelings.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

telracs said:


> Gutman, I'm not angry, I'm just less than thrilled by people trying to insult my intelligence. In fact, I'm wryly amused by it.
> 
> But as Betsy says, what happens there should stay there. I hope people who want something good out of it get it.


Telracs, please believe me. I would never try to insult a fellow New Yorker's intelligence. Especially if you're from Brooklyn.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Gutman said:


> Telracs, please believe me. I would never try to insult a fellow New Yorker's intelligence. Especially if you're from Brooklyn.


I know you know better. But other people are not as perceptive. Oh, and I don't throw china. Why waste the good dishes?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Gutman said:


> Wow. All these conspiracy theories about this other board.
> 
> Here's how it happened for me:
> 
> ...


I hear there have been more than a few cheap shots as well as posts from here being quoted there. If someone is banned from a forum and immediately starts a competing forum (and has the nerve to send someone over to advertise on the original forum), I think the people on the original forum might have reason to be a tad suspicious.

It is often a good idea to look at who is running something when you're deciding what you think of it and what the motivations are. But hey, I honestly don't care who posts over there. It's their business. I'm personally not "hot" about the new forum but I'm no fool either and I don't much appreciate some people thinking the members here are. (By "some people" I don't mean you, Gutman.  )

Edit: I think this thread should have not only been locked but been deleted as soon as it was posted. It is beyond rude to advertise one forum on another. Heck I don't even generally post links to the Critique Circle forum which is simply something that is rude to do. If it isn't against the forum rules, the forum rules should be changed.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> It is often a good idea to look at who is running something when you're deciding what you think of it and what the motivations are. But hey, I honestly don't care who posts over there. It's their business. I'm personally not "hot" about the new forum but I'm no fool either and I don't much appreciate some people thinking the members here are. (By "some people" I don't mean you, Gutman.  )


Thank goodness! Because even though I live in Oregon, I'm originally a New Yorker, and if you mess with me I'm calling Telracs!


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## Quinn Richardson (Apr 20, 2012)

Gutman said:


> *ducks from china being thrown at him*


Am I the only one who conjured a mental picture of asian fowl being flung at Gutman?


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Gutman said:


> Thank goodness! Because even though I live in Oregon, I'm originally a New Yorker, and if you mess with me I'm calling Telracs!


Well, I live in Oregon too and I assure you that you don't want to mess with a Scot! 

Edit: I don't throw the good china because that would be wasteful, but I do have a handy dandy slice and dice claymore.  

(Just kidding and no actual sharp metal implements are involved in this conversation)


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

NoTheOtherQuinn said:


> Am I the only one who conjured a mental picture of asian fowl being flung at Gutman?


Well, you just got me to laugh out loud!


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

NoTheOtherQuinn said:


> Am I the only one who conjured a mental picture of asian fowl being flung at Gutman?


Good one! In the same vein as "Eats shoots and leaves."


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> I hear there have been more than a few cheap shots as well as posts from here being quoted there. If someone is banned from a forum and immediately starts a competing forum (and has the nerve to send someone over to advertise on the original forum), I think the people on the original forum might have reason to be a tad suspicious.
> 
> It is often a good idea to look at who is running something when you're deciding what you think of it and what the motivations are. But hey, I honestly don't care who posts over there. It's their business. I'm personally not "hot" about the new forum but I'm no fool either and I don't much appreciate some people thinking the members here are. (By "some people" I don't mean you, Gutman.  )
> 
> Edit: I think this thread should have not only been locked but been deleted as soon as it was posted. It is beyond rude to advertise one forum on another. Heck I don't even generally post links to the Critique Circle forum which is simply something that is rude to do. If it isn't against the forum rules, the forum rules should be changed.


I think you covered all the bases quite well. Now that all the escapees have escaped the tyranny and oppression of KB (Anne and Betsy) maybe they can play in their own little sandbox. Enuf of this BS.


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## L.M. Gautreaux (Apr 15, 2012)

I've been debating for several days about joining this conversation.  I've checked the place out a couple times to see if it would be a good fit for me but ultimately decided no.  The atmosphere isn't quite my cup of tea for my author persona and besides I spend too much time here at kb as it is. I'm staying here as my one and only place to chill and hang out with fellow writers and readers.  Otherwise, I'd get no writing done!

That being said, I have high hopes that the board will stop being a backlash from kb and develop its own personality and atmosphere. I've observed that there are far fewer blatant cheap shots being made now than at its inception, which was just a few days ago, I believe.  I also saw an horrendously offending, crass, and clearly ugly post (nothing related to kb) removed at the request of the moderators, I  think. 

That seems to hint that it will become less about "WC refugees" and anger/spite/resentment and more about another unique board where writers can socialize. I may be naive but I hope that trend continues so they can create a board that better fits their personalities and needs.

Furthermore, I don't think it hurts kb to have another board out there with a different tone and purpose.  How can that harm us other than causing some ruffled feelings if they continue going down the road of negative references to kb?  I mean, I may not like some of what's being said but it doesn't affect me in any way. 

Diversity is good. I wish them best of luck in creating a board that makes them happy without directing negativity toward other boards that weren't such a good fit.  (That kind of attitude hurts the speaker way more than the target anyway, IMO.)

I really do hope they're able to develop it into a place where they have an all around good time. Best wishes to the WB!


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2012)

Well, let them have their forum. We have this:


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## BEAST (Mar 31, 2012)

Well, whatever your take on the Bistro you have to admit they are... different. I would never expect to see a topic entitled "How do sexual urges inform your writing?" here. So, to reiterate the general consensus... It definitely is not a forum for everyone...


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well, let them have their forum. We have this:


thanks Julie!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

telracs said:


> thanks Julie!


Sorry but I'm celebrating how nice, quiet and lovely our forum is with a glass of merlot. I'm not sure the Godiva would go with it. Perhaps later.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> Sorry but I'm celebrating how nice, quiet and lovely our forum is with a glass of merlot. I'm not sure the Godiva would go with it. Perhaps later.


*takes the merlot out of JRs hand. when there is Godiva booze, we all have Godiva booze. you can have the whine tomorrow.....*


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

telracs said:


> *takes the merlot out of JRs hand. when there is Godiva booze, we all have Godiva booze. you can have the whine tomorrow.....*


Hey I was having cheese with my whine. 

Aaaaalright. *drinks her Godiva booze*


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> Hey I was having cheese with my whine.
> 
> Aaaaalright. *drinks her Godiva booze*


*giggle* there's always more whine....


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

A healthy community greets such criticisms and challenges with gracious indulgence. It is not intimidated by such threats because it sees nothing to fear from them. Censoring this thread would not only be a step in the wrong direction, it would see those that desire this forum harm rewarded. If you care about this particular community, enrich it with dynamic posts full of fresh thoughts, insights, and ponies. We don't need better walls. We need better gardens.

B.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

GavinFletcher said:


> Well, whatever your take on the Bistro you have to admit they are... different. I would never expect to see a topic entitled "How do sexual urges inform your writing?" here. So, to reiterate the general consensus... It definitely is not a forum for everyone...


WHAT?

/ BE RIGHT BACK


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## Rachel Schurig (Apr 9, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well, let them have their forum. We have this:


And thank God for that!


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I've been popping into both, but you are making me feel like it's an either/or thing.  Why?  I'm starting to feel kind of unwelcome in my old home.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> I've been popping into both, but you are making me feel like it's an either/or thing. Why? I'm starting to feel kind of unwelcome in my old home.


Me too Jeanne. There is a lot of negativity here that is not present on other boards. I have often received snippy comments here before whenever I have posted something. Lots of friendliness too but there has often been a lot of sarcasm.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

While posting a thread on this forum that might draw traffic away from this forum to another seems icky to me, I am grateful that someone came back and let me know about it. I like Mike, even if he was banned and has rubbed some people the wrong way. Whatever differences Mike had with Moniqe and JR and whoever else has a hair up their butt about him, that's their issue. I enjoy conversing with all three. I'm not gonna pick sides, and I'm not joining any cliques that shun anyone. Despite the size of the internet, it's not that easy to find people you enjoy conversing with, and I'm not gonna cut off conversation with someone just because someone gets banned. There are many times I come to KB and there's a dead period when nothing new nas been posted on the threads that interest me. In those times I go to AW, Critique Circle, a private forum with some friends, Scribophile, and a couple sci-fi forums I frequent. For me, one more forum to visit doesn't mean fewer visits here. And it is nice to post someplace where I can cuss and actually see the cuss word on the screen. It just makes me feel good sometimes. I think KB has been very gracious in allowing this thread to stay up, and IMO it's a feather in their cap.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Yes, I am feeling like some on here are making it seem like going over there means you hate this board or are "secretly" bashing it.  Very unfortunate.  I understand that some posts were made that were unkind to this board.  However, not all of us who have posted "over there" have made cheap shots about this board nor do all of us "over there" dislike this board. I am one of those people. I love this board.

However, I enjoy more freedom of speech without being censored over there (not bashing type of posts, but not having to worry about if my language is too frank or a subject is too risky).  That is what freedom is about.  I appreciate that this board is not like that, but I want both.  I love kindleboards.  It is too soon to know if I wil love the new board, but I am trying it because it sounds like a place to talk with writers and not worry about saying the wrong word or starting "too adult" of a subject.

I have recieved a lot of help here and a lot of people are very nice. I know some here don't like Mike.  Mike was very kind to me and helped me in a couple of ways. I am not going to pick sides, as it has been years since I was in grade school, and choosing sides would be childish. I have also seen a lot of impatience here by some posters in regard to new people who post old issues and I have seen sharp comments, rudeness and snippiness or other posts here.  Isn't it a fact that you get both in any group of people?  Personally, I have seen a few on here that were a lot meaner than Mike ever was and yet they are not banned.  I don't know why and I don't care.  I do know that at times it frustrates me that this board censors the weakest of "bad" language but allows some to be blatantly rude. The f word bothers me a lot less than someone basically telling another that they are wasting time with thier redundant posts, etc. or being sarcastic to another poster.  But, again, I get that any large group of people has be mixture of all types of personalities.  The overwhelming majority here have been at best very friendly and at least decent.  I thank you all for that! I enjoy coming here.

Besides writers, I also find that a few readers here tend to be pretty hard on writers and their comments make it sound like they consider writers like slaves that better know their place, they are downright rude at times, yet nothing happens. And some readers here DON'T do that. Again, doesn't that happen with a large group of people? Most readers here are nice.

I think the other forum will mature and I HOPE it will be a fun place.  If it turns all ugly and mean I will leave.  Like I say, I can ignore a little of it, but I am not looking to be in a place where it is always ugly.

I certainly hope that my also joining the other forum does not make people here think I am talking about them behind their back. I may comment about wanting less censorship (I doubt I have yet, but I don't remember every word I say) but certainly I have said that here, too. Some people are buttoned up and some are buck naked. There is room on the internet for both. Most are somewhere in the middle.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> While posting a thread on this forum that might draw traffic away from this forum to another seems icky to me, I am grateful that someone came back and let me know about it. I like Mike, even if he was banned and has rubbed some people the wrong way. Whatever differences Mike had with Moniqe and JR and whoever else has a hair up their butt about him, that's their issue. I enjoy conversing with all three. I'm not gonna pick sides, and I'm not joining any cliques that shun anyone. Despite the size of the internet, it's not that easy to find people you enjoy conversing with, and I'm not gonna cut off conversation with someone just because someone gets banned. There are many times I come to KB and there's a dead period when nothing new nas been posted on the threads that interest me. In those times I go to AW, Critique Circle, a private forum with some friends, Scribophile, and a couple sci-fi forums I frequent. For me, one more forum to visit doesn't mean fewer visits here. And it is nice to post someplace where I can cuss and actually see the cuss word on the screen. It just makes me feel good sometimes. I think KB has been very gracious in allowing this thread to stay up, and IMO it's a feather in their cap.


I never intended to 'draw traffic away from this forum'. Is this forum not big enough and important enough to accept that there is a bit of variety out there?

I didn't think announcing a new place, that is so different to this one, would be seen as 'icky'. I think is overreacting, if you don't mind me saying so.

And yes, the fact that this thread is allowed proves what a big, generous heart this forum does have and how it welcomes freedom of expression. So, hooray for KB, and its professional attitude.

I am not a member of any clique and have never taken sides anywhere. I have no hidden agenda and I feel that it will be fun to swap back and fourth between sites.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2012)

Susanne,

I don't think anyone honestly gives a rat's backside if Mike wanted to start his own forum or not. I think what initiated the original bad feelings was this:



> I have discovered this new forum/site which has taken my fancy.


When you should have posted this:



> *Mike* invited me to his new forum which has taken my fancy.


Your initial post had the icky feeling of someone's sister leaving a review that says "I just discovered this amazing author everyone should read!"

Compound that by the fact that, when I went over to check it out, the first few threads I saw were basically attacks on KB.

If you had said Mike was starting a forum for folks that want to take the gloves off, I don't think anyone would have really cared. But there is a swarmy sort of vibe that, regardless of your actual intentions, it appeared you were trying to "sneak" over here to poach members. I've been around the internet too long and seen this film before. Not interested in the reboot.

Personally, that forum ain't for me. Not in it's current incarnation. Right now, it still has the vibe of a bunch of kids who built a tree house to get even with the kids across the street. Maybe a few months down the road, when they begin to understand why moderation actually exists...and make no mistake it WILL happen...it might be a place to poke my head in.

I never had a personal gripe with Mike. I always treated his post as one of those people who just says stuff for the point of saying it.


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## L.M. Gautreaux (Apr 15, 2012)

Just can't bite my tongue any longer.

I agree with Julie.

Furthermore, it felt smarmy especially when anyone who checked out the WB could see Suzanne's posts about making "the final thrust" by posting on kb in response to Mike's request for someone to do so. Her comments about needing a medal or reward for an action she believed might not be well received made it seem she thought KB was a dangerous and negative forum.  References to "going in" and "call in the troops" if she wasn't back in 24 hours solidified that impression, at least for me.

I don't know Suzanne and am giving her the benefit of the doubt in that perhaps her intentions were not to stir things up.  However, it appears duplicitous when combined with her "I love both places" and "Why am I getting flak?" posts here.

Perhaps she was just being cheeky and sarcastic with the post about KB members being "out for my blood."  (I'm not being sarcastic. She could've been just replying in the same vein as the original "sharpshooter" joke.)

I don't like being confrontational on a public board or assuming I know another person's motivation.  What she's doing doesn't hurt me but I confess it's bothersome to see her continue to play the innocent when her actions don't back that up.

I still feel the same way about the board as I did in my earlier post and am happy to see that the negativity toward other boards is diminishing. It might very well turn into a cool place for writers.

Suzanne, I imagine you may take this as a personal attack. It's brutally honest, no doubt. But I won't engage in any kind of negative discourse resulting from this post.  In every thread I've seen you in before, you seemed straight forward and helpful.  That may be why I felt this entire thing was a bit icky.  If I have interpreted this wrongly, I apologize. 

After considering the dynamics of this situation and soundly berating myself for sticking my nose in, I'm left with a final question.  If someone thought making a post here about another board would cause havoc, why would he/she do so anyway?  What's the motivation behind that type of thinking?

Betsy, if this post is inappropriate or violates Forum Decorum, please take it down and accept my apologies.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

What is the sound of one forum clapping?


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)




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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> I like Mike, even if he was banned and has rubbed some people the wrong way. Whatever differences Mike had with Moniqe and JR and whoever else has a hair up their butt about him, that's their issue. I enjoy conversing with all three. I'm not gonna pick sides, and I'm not joining any cliques that shun anyone. Despite the size of the internet, it's not that easy to find people you enjoy conversing with, and I'm not gonna cut off conversation with someone just because someone gets banned.


This.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I think people are ignoring the most serious, most pressing question in this thread.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

As a married woman, I'd pick the mermaid. Someone to talk to, assuming she can speak a language I can learn.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I pick the one with the fins, as she could swim me home.  

David...you so rock.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> I pick the one with the fins, as she could swim me home.
> 
> David...you so rock.


Mermaids can swim!

David, which did you pick?


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Lisa....he's a guy.  Three guesses and the first two don't count.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> Lisa....he's a guy. Three guesses and the first two don't count.


Lol, I just wanted to make him say it.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

L.M. Gautreaux said:


> Just can't bite my tongue any longer.
> 
> I agree with Julie.
> 
> ...


Well, thank you. I don't take this as a personal attack. My comments about coming here and sending the troops, etc was intended as a joke. So were the subsequent ones. Sorry, I am like that, I make jokes. And yes there was a hint that there is negativity and sarcasm here. There is and I have taken my fair share of it. Especially when I was new and might have raised old, tired subjects and got snippy comments. I remember thinking 'what is this'? Subsequently there has been snips and snipes here and there that have not been too kind. I wouldn't do this myself to others so this has sometimes taken me aback. But I have also found a lot of kindness here, which makes up fpr all of that. Yes, I try to be fair, straight forward and kind, so it was nice that you got that impression of me.

You are right that I didn't choose my words correctly and shouldn't have said I 'discovered' the new forum. This was just out of impulse and I apologise if it seemed devious. I was told about the site, not exactly invited and I was one of the first to join. I liked the look of things there, the friendliness of the first few members, the free spirit it has. I can see that some people might see it as a threat but I don't think it's intended as such.

I don't know what went on with Mike here or why he was banned. He mentioned it to me but I don't know the details. I was absent from here for a couple of weeks so it had all disappeared when I came back. I know that he was a little disgruntled by his treatment here for some time. But, and I may be wrong, I feel the new site was not started out of spite but because some people need more freedom to express themselves.

As for my motives in posting about the site, yes I was hoping that the new forum would gain new members. But I didn't and still don't see it as a rival site. Yes, the subject of discussions are similar but there are also others that are new and different.

So, apologies if I did or said something that upset anyone or if I appeared to be part of some kind conspiracy.

I do still like this forum and I meant what I said. I will keep coming back here, if I may, to post and take part in discussions and conversations and I will also post 'over there'.

I hope this is all okay and nobody takes offense.


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## L.M. Gautreaux (Apr 15, 2012)

I am impressed with the candor and tone of your last post. It sounds much more like posts from you in other threads.

I don't know what occurred either but I'm glad you'll continue posting here. No one should be made to feel they have to pick one or the other. 

I certainly didn't take offense at your post and appreciate you taking the time to explain your thinking.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

L.M. Gautreaux said:


> I am impressed with the candor and tone of your last post. It sounds much more like posts from you in other threads.
> 
> I don't know what occurred either but I'm glad you'll continue posting here. No one should be made to feel they have to pick one or the other.
> 
> I certainly didn't take offense at your post and appreciate you taking the time to explain your thinking.


I should actually thank _you_ for your first post, because it made me realise what was wrong all along with my first take. I never take offense at fair comments that make me take a step back and look at my own mistakes. It can be difficult to read one's own words in way that others do. So you held up a mirror to me and made me see what impression I created, which wasn't a very pretty picture.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

David Adams said:


> I think people are ignoring the most serious, most pressing question in this thread.


I'd take B. A's hooters are small and boxy. I can throw a bag over B's head. Either way you come away smelling like fish, which is nothing new.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> I can throw a bag over B's head. Either way you come away smelling like fish, which is nothing new.


vrabinec, I have enjoyed many of your posts, but I have to say that this post was way more offensive than anything I ever saw Mike post. I wouldn't ask that you be slapped on the wrist for it or banned, I am not a fan of that kind of thing unless it is a personal attack on a specific poster that grows hateful, but I do have to say I think less of you because of it. Tacky and just plain thoughtless to say the least. Ah, well. We all say things that are offensive at times. Too bad. This post made me sad and made you look less intelligent and more unkind.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Sorry to offend and disappoint you, Caddy. I confess I have a vulgar, insensetive, ugly side that comes out sometimes when I'm trying to be funny. I'd alos encourage you to think less of my intelligence, because anything above a moron is an overestimation. Anyway, I'll try to resist the urge from now, though I make no promises. Anne and Betsy are free to ban me. I'd probably get more writing done that way anyway.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Susanne OLeary said:


> I should actually thank _you_ for your first post, because it made me realise what was wrong all along with my first take.


Since you are listed by the admin there as one of the four Mother Hens there, coming here with your "discovery" is more spam than any real discovery. Glad you see it as others have. Good luck with it all and I hope this thread can expire.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Sorry to offend and disappoint you, Caddy. I confess I have a vulgar, insensetive, ugly side that comes out sometimes when I'm trying to be funny. I'd alos encourage you to think less of my intelligence, because anything above a moron is an overestimation. Anyway, I'll try to resist the urge from now, though I make no promises. Anne and Betsy are free to ban me. I'd probably get more writing done that way anyway


Thank you for the gracious apology. It is accepted. lol re: intelligence. I, too, have a vulgar side (and sometimes insensitive) so you may be spanking me at some point (No, don't go there...). Many times posts get me worked up and I type an angry reply and then delete it. I imagine at some point I will make a poor decision and hit "post" and then I will regret it. We are all human and that fact that you apologized makes me think more of you again.  Hey, I am easily pleased, what can I say?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

Let's stop jumping on Susanne about her initial post.  Points made, responses made, Susanne has said she was wrong in the way she first presented this.  Let's take her at her word and move on.

If there's anyone in the Writers' Café who doesn't know about the new forum by now, it's because their power was off longer than mine was.    It's obviously a hot button issue for some members but welcome information for others.  So....

After reviewing this thread as a whole, we think it best fits the category of an author services thread.  As such, Susanne, you and your fellow members, as a collective, are welcome to bump it (all WB members treated as one individual for bumping purposes) once every seven days.  As we're not going to check on the membership status of every single poster (not sure that would be possible anyway), admittedly that will be a judgment call at times which may take into account the general tone of a particular post.

It's a big Internet, there's plenty of room for all kinds of forums and we certainly think people are entitled to belong to as many as they wish.  I belong to more than one Kindle forum myself.  (Though KindleBoards is the best!   )

Everyone have a great day!  (Life is good, the power is back on, the air conditioning is working.  )

Now, cousin Vrabinec, about that post...

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> Since you are listed by the admin there as one of the four Mother Hens there, coming here with your "discovery" is more spam than any real discovery. Glad you see it as others have. Good luck with it all and I hope this thread can expire.


I'm sorry I do not know to which list you are referring? Mother hen? I never accepted such a position.

Many thanks, Betsy, that was very gracious and fair of you.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Cool quilt! (Winter Chair)


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Susanne OLeary said:


> I'm sorry I do not know to which list you are referring? Mother hen? I never accepted such a position.
> 
> Many thanks, Betsy, that was very gracious and fair of you.


You probably didn't know the Admin posted you as one of them...probably without telling you. No big deal. Good luck with everything.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> You probably didn't know the Admin posted you as one of them...probably without telling you. No big deal. Good luck with everything.


Thank you very much! I just saw the post you are referring to. You seem to be much more informed about what goes on over there than I am.

Couldn't resist posting this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0K551W0fzk

Perhaps... we will see you... over there?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> After reviewing this thread as a whole, we think it best fits the category of an author services thread.


Ah, if that's the case and the judge ruled in her favor, then I owe Suzanne an apology for the icky comment. Sorry, Suzanne. My bad.



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Now, cousin Vrabinec, about that post...


See, I think David should get 75% of the blame for that one. I'm just the junkie. He's the pusher.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

I was about to ask how Dave managed to stay out of trouble while getting somebody else into it...

But I guess that's par for the course with a "kobold minion" though...


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> Ah, if that's the case and the judge ruled in her favor, then I owe Suzanne an apology for the icky comment. Sorry, Suzanne. My bad.
> 
> See, I think David should get 75% of the blame for that one. I'm just the junkie. He's the pusher.


Apology accepted.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

The Writers Bistro is some ten days old today, so I thought I'd post an update on how it's going.

So far we have 62 members and a good number of guests each day. I think it was over 80 looking in the other day and new members join daily.

It's a happy, friendly place with lots of interesting, fun threads. This board is taking on a voice all of its own with some great members from all over the US and some from Europe and Australia too. I would love to see more European writers there, though, in order to make it more 'global'.

What I find so appealing, is that there is such a laid back atmosphere, where there is great tolerance and understanding of a writer's struggles and worries and where anyone can ask a question and get a sympathetic response.

The critique section is really good too and I pick up tips and have many 'eureka' moments, finding things that might be small but hugely important when putting together plot and dialogue.

There is a 'general' board where we discuss anything under the sun and even a 'drunken' section for those who might have imbibed and are a little unsteady but want to have a giggle without having to be responsible.

I find myself quite hooked and pop in there at regular intervals when I take a break from writing. I always find someone to chat to and it feels more intimate than a lot of other boards with thousands of members, where you may not be heard or replied to, simply because of the bigger numbers. This makes writing a little less lonely.

It has a kind of 'family' feel, for want of a better word. Lovely to see and long may it last.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, let's not start another fuss over this.  We've said this thread will be considered an "author services thread" and can be bumped once a week.

Susanne did not say WB is better than KB (as KindleBoards is the best forum on the 'Net, we know that couldn't be, right?  )  It's a big Internet, plenty of room...

Everyone chill....

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

T.L. Haddix said:


> We get it. Your board is better than us. We're not worthy.
> 
> Seriously, I think this other board is the best thing to happen to THIS one in a long time. Kudos to whoever set it up.


Well, I'm posting over there (Slappy over there), and I wouldn't say it's better, but it does allow some things this board doesn't. There's a critique section in which I critted the first chapter of Mike's WIP, and another one for a different member. You don't get chapter crits here, since everyone is trying to sell their books and putting up a chapter for critique and seeing it bleed in front of reader's eyes is something most authors don't want to do. Victorine has her blog that she bumps, but that gets lost in the threads and it's limited to people whose work isn't selling all that well, and every now and then I like to crit something that isn't struggling (besides, she limits her word count to 300). I used to crit over on CC al the time, but their forums are slow so I ended up here and I know the people from here better who've joined the new site, so I'm critting work of people I feel closer to than when I'm critting on CC.

Also, I get to talk politics over there. I get why KB doesn't allow it, because it tends to get messy, but I enjoy political discourse, and it's nice to have someplace to get a bit of that with fellow writers. It's a little more secluded there. I don't think readers drop by too often, so there's less chance of an author losing half his perspective reading audience by divulging his politics. Not to mention that every now and then someone like andresanthomas will post a bit of erotica and I can actually read the thing without having half the words blacked out. It's different. It feels different because there aren't a bunch of self-promotion threads to wade through for someone like me who's just looking for a chat with other writers. I hand it to WC for seeing that, and letting this thread ride. I didn't see it that way at first. Hopefully, T.L., you understand.

The implication that the site is the best thing that ever happen to WC, I assume because it drew the riff raff off this site, making it better by their absence, isn't exactly accurate since I and most of the people over there still post here. Like Betsy said, it's a big internet.

*Folks, as I said earlier in the thread, this is considered a promotional "author services thread" and bumps by any member of the WB will mean that any other member must wait for seven days before posting again to the thread. Posts will be removed that violate our bumping rule. My original post is quoted below. Thanks! --Betsy*



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Susanne, you and your fellow members, as a collective, are welcome to bump it (all WB members treated as one individual for bumping purposes) once every seven days.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Another week has gone by since my last update of the Writers Bistro.

There are some very interesting discussions going on and the Jane Austen thread is proving very popular. I recently found a book with Jane Austen's letters so I'm doing a series with excerpts from these letters that Jane Austen wrote to her family and friends through her life. And just for fun, I have 'translated' her veiled insults about some of the people she met into modern language. 

Mike's writing school with all sorts of tips for improving writing techniques is excellent. I have learned a lot from reading those, which have alerted me to certain aspects of writing that I had never thought about before.

There is a lot of other fun stuff and some very good posts. The bistro is proving to be a friendly and welcoming place for writers of all genres and there is terrific support for those who are looking for help and information.

This does not mean that there is any competition between this site and the other one, because they are quite different. Nor does it mean that I or anyone who is also a member of KB has actually left. I like both and find great things both here and there.

http://writersbistro.proboards.com/index.cgi


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I do go to WB and have a read and a giggle. I like the, er, "recap" thread the best. I think it should be updated more frequently, because it is the best part.

OH NO I've said too much! I should get back to my WIP.

FWIW, things seem pretty civilized over there, and I didn't see many dirty words in the publicly accessible area.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

It's a huge giggle, Dalya. It's mad, bad and irreverent. At the moment it's close and friendly, a little rude and mainly fun. The absence of forum decorum gives feeling of freedom but it's slightly risky at the same time.

Right now it's very creative and we have had no nastiness. But I'm sure that will happen too. We will deal with that in our own way.

What is important is the freedom of expression, isn't it?


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Susanne OLeary said:


> What is important is the freedom of expression, isn't it?


I thought it was freedom from the WIP!  

Without writing forums, I'd just have to write all the time.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

dalya said:


> Without writing forums, I'd just have to write all the time.


A person who does nothing but write will eventually have nothing to write about but writing itself.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> A person who does nothing but write will eventually have nothing to write about but writing itself.


Hey! That's the title of my new epic blog about writing about writing!

p.s. I saw the comments about us penguins on the fringe of sanity or whatever and I thought it was very funny. I may pop over there and spread some delight when I wrap up this WIP. Internet addiction is baaaaaaaad. <-- said in my sheeple voice.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Yeah, there's a big difference between getting out in the world so one can be a little more worldly, and obesessing over the next WC post, just to make sure you get the last word in a thread, or making sure you don't miss a good comment at the expense of your writing. I'm with ya, man. I gotta finish my WIP or I'll forever be dreaming about what might happen once I finish it.


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