# Fundraising for my next book! **UPDATE--see latest page)**



## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Hey everyone--I'm coming out with a new book this summer (a new series) and it will be in print and on Kindle, and I'm going hardcover with it. But the problem is, I don't have money.

So what I've decided to do is use the website Kickstarter.com. It's a fundraising effort for creative projects, where you post your project and you get "backers" who pledge money toward the project. The cool thing is that it's all or nothing--if the project doesn't raise the full amount in the time set, nobody pays, and you won't be charged at all unless the project is successfully funded.

My goal is to raise $3,000 dollars for my novel, Incognito, in 90 days. You can read up more on the project and back it here.

I'm really excited for this project, and I hope some people can back it. You can give as little as $1, and you can get rewards starting at $5. If you'd like to help me, not only back the project with money but with words. I can't express enough how important it is to get traffic to this page for the book to be successful. I love this book and I can't wait to get it out to the general public. I'm so glad to have my friends here at Kindleboards!

Dawson


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Wow.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Arkali said:


> Wow.


Wow what?


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

Dawson, dear, you are a wonderfully talented young person with a lot of ambition.  But what in the name of all that is good and holy do you need $3,000 for?  From a business perspective, if the books haven't sold enough volume in paperback and digital format to cover the cost of printing hardcover, don't throw money down the toilet on a hardcover.  The only reason major publishers print hardcover is to sell to libraries, which prefer hardcover.  Publishers make their bread and butter on paperbacks.  And if you look at the bestsellers lists, you'll see that many publishers are even forgoing hardcover for some of their bigger titles.  Nowadays publishers only produce hardcovers for library editions or books with huge collectible value to the fanbase (Harry Potter, Twilight, etc).  There is no rational business reason to blow $3,000 on the book, particularly if your last books didn't generate any profit.  And if your last books DID make a profit, then where is that money?  Because if it just got spent on non-publishing stuff and you didn't have the business wherewithall to invest it in your next project, then there is a bit of vanity at play to ask us to fund your next book, don't you think?


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

What Julie said, far more eloquently than I could have put it.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

What Julie said and I'd probably add that if you really want to do a hardcover, sell enough of the Kindle version and then use that money to produce the hardcover.  

Of course there's nothing wrong with attempting your idea, and I wish you lots of luck with it.  Art often isn't logical.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

I'd also skip the hardback, but (as Dawson says in his Kickstarter write up) 3000 for editing, copy editing, printing, and publicity, sounds quite reasonable.

That's about what I have to hit to break even on my latest novel as well. 

As for Kickstarter, more power to you for using it.  I'll be putting up something for my novel as well one of these days.  If you can get people to donate the money to cover your costs, all of your sales can go into profit.  It's a brilliant system, if you can get enough people to sign up for it.


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## Nick Fox (Oct 26, 2010)

I haven't been around here that long, but it doesn't strike me as very appropriate to be panhandling for money for writing on a board full of writers. You're posting here amongst a group of people who are just like you: none of them have any money for their books either. 

If you want to try to raise money for your next project, I would suggest using a group of people who are more invested in your life and success, such as family members, close friends, your blog readers, your Facebook friends, or even Twitter followers. Personally, I have no incentive to give you money to see your next project, because I've never heard of you before. And I don't say that to sound cruel - it's just the reality of the situation from my perspective, and it's probably also the perspective of about 95% of the people who post here. 

Another suggestion would be using revenue you get from Kindle sales to pay for a hardcover release, if you decide that's the route you want to go. At least that way you still have some stake in your own future, instead of asking others to carry you along at no risk to yourself.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

KerylR said:


> I'd also skip the hardback, but (as Dawson says in his Kickstarter write up) 3000 for editing, copy editing, printing, and publicity, sounds quite reasonable.
> 
> That's about what I have to hit to break even on my latest novel as well.
> 
> As for Kickstarter, more power to you for using it. I'll be putting up something for my novel as well one of these days. If you can get people to donate the money to cover your costs, all of your sales can go into profit. It's a brilliant system, if you can get enough people to sign up for it.


Printing via POD has almost no up front cost. If you use Createspace, you're talking $39 for the Pro plan and the cost of the proof copy, which is under $20 with shipping. You can get good editing and proofreading for a couple of hundred dollars (there are some VERY good folks right here on these boards that offer reasonable rates). Even if you factor in costs for cover art (which again you can get very inexpensive from some wonderfully talented folks here), reformatting for digital (which if you are remotely computer savvy you can do yourself), and administrative incidentals you don't come anywhere near that cost. And as far as publicity, unless you are planning to market direct to bookstores and libraries, I can't fathom spending $3,000 on an indie book for promotion.

And if you ARE targeting bookstores and libraries exclusively, $3,000 won't cover half your costs. You'll have legal expenses, warehousing expenses, shipping expenses...

I run a small press. I make a nice profit. The math in this case does not work if you are doing your business right.


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

I'm brand new to this board too, so all sentiments echoed, not my place to chime in personally. However, if you want to have a hard cover version of your book just to sell to friends, or to hold in your own hands, Blurb does print-on-demand hard covers, and I can attest to their physical quality. You might want to think about that instead of investing so much money into something that probably wouldn't give you a satisfactory return.

Best of luck!


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

See, the hardcover is part of the book itself. It would not do the content justice to release it first in trade paperback. It also says something about how much I care about the book.

By the way, less than a third of the money is going to the first print run.

I think you may have missed the point a bit about Kickstarter--it's not in the sense of pandering for money, it's asking if you want to support an artistic project that you think is cool.

Sorry if you took this in an offensive/peddling manner! Completely not intentional.


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## Nick Fox (Oct 26, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> See, the hardcover is part of the book itself. It would not do the content justice to release it first in trade paperback. It also says something about how much I care about the book.


In what way is the hardcover "part of the book itself?" You might really want a hardcover of your book because you think it's cool, but that's a pretty weak reason to come asking for $3,000.



Dawsburg said:


> By the way, less than a third of the money is going to the first print run.


And how do you plan on spending the rest of it? If you're really serious, I suggest you heed Julie's advice above and 1) not do a hardcover at all and/or 2) be more realistic about costs.



Dawsburg said:


> I think you may have missed the point a bit about Kickstarter--it's not in the sense of pandering for money, it's asking if you want to support an artistic project that you think is cool.


No, I haven't missed the point at all. You don't have any money, and you want some. That's about the long and short of it.

You are essentially asking a group of strangers to support you in your efforts to create something that will benefit only you when it's done. If you really want to have a group of people support an artistic effort, then why not make the "rewards" a little better for those who participate? For example, right now you're offering a free copy of the book for a whopping $30. Why not make that $20 dollars, so it's more in line with the actual cost of a hardback?


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

_Review copies campaign: $250 easily.
Editing: At least $100
Illustrations (this one is going to be illustrated): $200
Cover design: $100
Prizes: ~$150
LightningSource setup: $200
Printing: ~$1000
ISBN: $125
Additional shipping: $175
Promotional materials/miscellany: $200
Cushion money: $200
Kickstarter/Amazon's fees: $300_

That's where it all goes. I'm not doing this the seat-of-my-pants way that a lot of people do or in the way I have in the past--this is going to be a more organized promotion.

And if you examine Kickstarter it's used by artists, filmmakers, and musicians who are doing this even more for themselves than I am. The movement is to promote artistic projects. I don't mean to offend anyone, or make it seem like I'm a panhandling author.


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## NoahMullette-Gillman (Jul 29, 2010)

"Amazon fees!!?!?"

You might be wise to take a look at the authors who ARE doing what you'd like to do and being successful at it. Your business model is nothing like theirs.

If you can manage to make a living selling a hardcover copy of a book as an independent author, then sincerely God bless you! But let me suggest that concentrating your efforts, as an unknown, into selling as many digital copies as possible would cost a fraction of what you're planning and be FAR more likely to succeed.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

NoahMullette-Gillman said:


> "Amazon fees!!?!?"


Kickstarter goes through Amazon payments, which takes 5% of what you earn, and Kickstarter also takes a 5% slice.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

While I happen to agree with a lot of the advice given--let's keep in mind that the OP asked for money--not opinions or advice.    If that's the dream and it works out so be it.  Who are we to step on it?  I'm pretty sure all of us have dreams and most of us know what it feels like to have them stepped on...

As an aside, I don't get the Amazon fees.  Lots of people on this board publish through them and that "fees" sounds odd.  I wish you tons of luck, but I can't say that it's the kind of effort I can personally get behind.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

MariaESchneider said:


> As an aside, I don't get the Amazon fees. Lots of people on this board publish through them and that "fees" sounds odd. I wish you tons of luck, but I can't say that it's the kind of effort I can personally get behind.


Refer to post above; the fees have nothing to do with the book, just with the fundraiser.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

I haven't looked into creating a hardcover, myself, but I thought Lulu.com did hardcovers as well as paperbacks. Have you checked into their pricing? It might save you a few bucks (or it might not).

Good luck with the project!


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## Imogen Rose (Mar 22, 2010)

Good luck with your endeavor.

If it doesn't work out, you can still publish your book for nothing on *Kindle and Nook*.

Minimal upfront costs (proof and shipping, around $15) for p*aperback versions *on Createspace (they will give you a free ISBN). I get *hardbacks* printed via Lulu... again no upfront costs (you don't even need to order a proof in this case) and they provide you with an ISBN.


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## NoahMullette-Gillman (Jul 29, 2010)

kcmay said:


> I haven't looked into creating a hardcover, myself, but I thought Lulu.com did hardcovers as well as paperbacks. Have you checked into their pricing? It might save you a few bucks (or it might not).
> 
> Good luck with the project!


Lulu hardcovers are unreasonably expensive, but they ARE POD. Which means the author doesn't have any expense with them except buying his own proof.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

LightningSource is POD as well, I'm just getting copies of the book to sell myself at events.


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

Dawson, very admirable to see a youngster publishing their first book. 

A hardcover may be all nice and tidy, but when it comes down to logistics, and if you have to raise the money, it's far simpler to go with CreateSpace and a trade paperback. Lower the font, cut the page count, and voila! For $39, you get copies that are lower in price, you get a larger royalty and they'll give you an ISBN, as Imogen said. And you don't need an ISBN to sell digitally.

$39 for the lower priced copies/larger royalty
$35 for the copyright through copyright.gov

$74 right there.

As for editing costs, ask an English teacher?


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

English teacher is a great idea.  Also, sometimes English students will do something like that for free to build their portfolio.  Try your local college.

I know hardcover is very appealing, but honestly, they're very hard to sell.  Even paperbacks are hard to sell.  Self-published books are much more expensive than traditionally published books.  Now, Kindle books are easier to sell because we can price lower than traditional publishers.

Vicki


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

John Fitch V said:


> Dawson, very admirable to see a youngster publishing their first book.
> 
> A hardcover may be all nice and tidy, but when it comes down to logistics, and if you have to raise the money, it's far simpler to go with CreateSpace and a trade paperback. Lower the font, cut the page count, and voila! For $39, you get copies that are lower in price, you get a larger royalty and they'll give you an ISBN, as Imogen said. And you don't need an ISBN to sell digitally.
> 
> ...


John,

I have self-published two books in the past, and I've been around the self-publishing thing since early 2008, so I'm completely familiar with CreateSpace. I use them myself.

I plan to achieve something completely different with Incognito, though. I've learned from my past two books, and I came up with the idea of doing a full-on, professional-looking hardcover, with illustrations, made possible through Kickstarter. The only reason I didn't think of this before was because I didn't have money, but I saw Kickstarter and I saw that it was possible.

I'm not completely abandoning CreateSpace. I'm just using a different self-publishing path, one that is just as viable, though less traveled because of the cost. I'm willing to give a lot to this book, because I feel like if I give it my all then it will give back. (I really do love it.)

Does that make any sense?

As for the editing, I'm going through a writer-friend of mine who does editing and writing for a living. I know he has quality stuff, and I'd like to give him work. (And trust me--I'm in high school, and not all the teachers have the grasp on writing that I'm looking for.)

I'll probably come out with a paperback later on, but I definitely prefer the hardcover because of the kind of book it is. And, especially at events where I'm ordering the books myself, I can sell it for a very reasonable price.

And of course I'm coming out with a Kindle version--I would be brain-dead if I didn't.


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

My first novel was first published in hardcover.  Dude -- they're hard to sell.  My hardcover cost $26.  There's a reason 90% of my sales were to libraries, not individuals.

Also:  I didn't have to pay anyone a four-figure sum to publish my hardcover.  My publisher paid ME a four-figure sum to print it.

Now, I was able to sell a bunch of hardcovers, BUT... that's because my publisher promoted them.  I'd probably sell very few on my own.

For you, I recommend one of two things:

1) Sell your novel to a publisher who pays YOU.

or...

2) Use POD, such as CreateSpace.  No cost for you, and only $40 for their pro plan.

Trust me, you do NOT want to deal with printing, storage, shipping, and all that hassle.  Print On Demand is just what the doctor ordered, in your case.

Good luck!


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## JRLeckman (Dec 22, 2010)

You want my advice. Note the lack of a question mark. You are sixteen and it's my job to teach you kids a thing or two.

Obviously the general consensus is that you're asking for money from strangers. This is a trick politicians use to raise money to gain office. It works for them because they woo and wine and dine prospects in the hope of a bigger return. You are not a politician and need a few hints.

Step 1: You're trying to sell us the cow without letting us taste the milk. You have two previously published stories and supposedly have one far enough along that it's publishable this summer. If I even wanted to consider investing in your dream, it would cost me 2.99 for one of your ebooks. Maybe you should offer prospective backers the opportunity to download one or both of your previous books for free, or even the first few chapters of Incognito. Cost to you is nothing. Potential gain? Who knows, someone on the board could make 8+ figures a year and decide to back you all the way because they like your previous work. Worse case scenario, you get a bad review on Amazon.

Step 2: You claim that the hardback is important to you. I can respect that, but i have no clue why you feel that way. I took the time to research you on the web, and so far I have learned very little about why this book is so I important to you or me. You are just another writer who has a story to tell, we all are.  That's why it's not enough to simply say "Trust me, it's important." Even if you're afraid it sounds silly, be honest about why it's important. This is your main cost, so express to us why you need items so badly.

Step 3: What happens if you don't get the money? If this book is a dream of yours, how come you rely on the kindness of strangers for it? Would you be willing to get a job and pay for it yourself? How come you haven't already? Yes, I know what it's like to have no money, did it for years, and yet I still never felt the need to ask others for it. Instead, I found any option I could to pursue my own dreams. Experience is the greatest teacher, and I wouldn't trade some of the things I learned trying to achieve my dream for easy money. I'm worried that the completion of your book is based solely on this fundraiser and that being unable to raise the money, you will just give up. I am also worried that if you were tp get this money and be unable to publish for whatever reason that you would become this boards personal whipping boy. Taking three grand and running would guarantee hate from the people who took a chance on a young boy's dream.

Someone earlier posted that you weren't looking for opinions. Someone else wished you the best of luck. I hope this comment finds you somewhere in the middle, because I want your dream tp be realized but am afraid that you aren't using all the tools you have to achieve it. I am not saying you can't do it your way, and I am not saying it won't happen your way, but you are going to have to give a little to get. Offering prizes is insufficient. 

And...end lesson.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

JRLeckman said:


> You want my advice. Note the lack of a question mark. You are sixteen and it's my job to teach you kids a thing or two.
> 
> Obviously the general consensus is that you're asking for money from strangers. This is a trick politicians use to raise money to gain office. It works for them because they woo and wine and dine prospects in the hope of a bigger return. You are not a politician and need a few hints.
> 
> ...


That was the best post on this entire thread.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Um, did I say thank you?

The only problem I have with your post is that people still don't get the idea of Kickstarter: most of the people who frequent that site are there to invest in art projects that are cool and don't view it as begging for money.

But even from such a viewpoint, your advice is worth its weight in gold.

1. That's a great idea. Happening right now.

2. Hardback is important because this book's intended to feel old, and a hardcover fits with the idea of mapmaking and old books that's a sort of theme in the book. Most of the hardcover sales will come from hand-selling at events, most likely, because I can buy them for less than 10 bucks a copy and charge less than 20 for them ($16 or $17, which is a great hardcover price). I will admit, though, the majority of the online sales will be kindle or paperback simply because of lower cost. I don't know what the hardcover price will be online.

3. If I don't get the money, I'm going for a less expensive method. If all the worst things happen to this project that possibly could, no way would I ever give up. The goal is to get the book out--I'm simply trying to do so in the best way possible.

Great great great advice. Thank you. THANK YOU.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Good luck to you. I encourage you to follow your dreams and learn from them. I mean, good on you for showing initiative and trying things out!

But um... how do I put this?

There's a rule in publishing. Some of us call it Yog's Law*: *Money flows TOWARD the writer.*

Overtly, this means that you don't pay someone to publish your book - and I think you partly understand that part. You aren't paying somebody to do it all for you. However....

That's not really what makes me itch about your request. The subtext of Yog's Law is that YOU NEVER GO TO A WRITER TO FUND A PUBLISHING PROJECT. Writers are not the money people. They don't get paid enough to fund anything. Money flows toward them, not away from them. If a project is any good, you find money people to fund it.

It's true that indie publishing is changing many aspects of this. However, if you consider that we all are striving for the same dream, it raises a question: Why don't _you_ give me some money to fund my dream? Why ask me to defund my own projects to fund yours?

What writers have to offer each other is collective experience. We've seen a lot of dreams dashed, and we've seen a lot of dreams fulfilled. When we put our heads together, we can see what works, and what doesn't, and what's a waste of time.

And it just happens that this group knows that modern publishing is not like film-making or even fine art. We don't need capital to get started. You can capitalize your own efforts by doing what the rest of us are doing -- launching a writing career with ebooks, writing more, building a rep, and reinvesting earnings into professional covers, and yes, even paper copies.

But that comes later. First you have to build a foundation.

(*The Mighty Yog Sysop is sf writer James D. MacDonald, who formulated and promulgated the rule back in the old old old early days of the internet, when he was a sysop on the GEnie network.)

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> I plan to achieve something completely different with Incognito, though. I've learned from my past two books, and I came up with the idea of doing a full-on, professional-looking hardcover, with illustrations, made possible through Kickstarter. The only reason I didn't think of this before was because I didn't have money, but I saw Kickstarter and I saw that it was possible.


Several of these posts came up while I composing the previous post, but I wanted to respond to this:

$200 is not enough for professional illustrations. If you really want to have a full-on professional hardback (especially if you want it to look "old" like a deluxe edition) you're going to need a much bigger budget.

But, as I said, good for you for trying this out. I'm not being sarcastic at all when I say it is at the very least a fun-sounding learning experience. You will learn a heck of a lot by doing it, and frankly, even if this lot of books doesn't go anywhere, you will STILL have the intellectual property and can try it again better later too.

Camille


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

daringnovelist said:


> Several of these posts came up while I composing the previous post, but I wanted to respond to this:
> 
> $200 is not enough for professional illustrations. If you really want to have a full-on professional hardback (especially if you want it to look "old" like a deluxe edition) you're going to need a much bigger budget.
> 
> ...


Looking "old" and feeling "old are different things, just to state.

And I have a good friend who's an incredible artist who offered to do the illustrations and cover for $300 total. (Which is awesome.)


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Things that generally receive full funding on Kickstarter are public interest arts projects or projects that serve some sort of public good, such as programs like Words Without Borders or projects that bring awareness to diseases or a good cause. Very few non-educational or charitable interests reach their fundraising goal on Kickstarter. (Especially in regards to literature)

Your web-site says you only have $50 of the $3,000 dollars that you're asking for donated so far. It's very hard for individuals, but especially hard for individuals without more experience and a better grasp of this sort of system to receive any money at all. 

Think of it from an investor's perspective. While you are very likely the exception to the rule, it would be pretty hard to convince someone to make a charitable donation to a high school students project, no matter how ambitious they are. *Especially* on a site like KickStarter, where there are so many worthy projects!

Also, I admire your ambition, and I think that's an almost universally echoed sentiment around these parts. I'm 23-years-old, and still struggling to finish my first novel. When I was the same age as you, I was filled with the same ambition and desire to take control of my own destiny. I also thought that I'd have several series of stories completed and be something along the lines of a world famous author right now.

And it's good to have those dreams, but also difficult to temper them, on occasion, with reality. If you look at some of the top selling independent authors at the moment, they would not even be able to get $3,000 from a bunch of strangers to write a book of fiction. It's just not the way things work.

You've been at this for a long time as you've mentioned. Longer then me, for certain. So I can't give you pragmatic advice from that end, but I can tell you as an avid reader, consumer, and a guy maybe a little closer to your age than most, that you ought to not try this in this way right now. Even if the book absolutely was impossible without it being hard cover, it's very unlikely that you're going to develop the interest necessary in it to get that sort of investment. Instead, you should focus on putting together the best product you can, and either trying to publish it "traditionally" or going to digital/paperback route. 

I don't mean to rain on your parade. I've read your description of your brother helping you out, and I think that the encouraging words from everyone here, myself include are important. You're doing at your age what I wish I could have accomplished at your age. But it's also important to remember that there are rules with these things, and that in a way, you're not above the law. I don't want to sound like an egotist or attempting to squash your dreams. I don't want to give you a "stern talking to" as another poster seemed to try to do. I just want to say that this is a journey which will conclude with you be sorrily disappointed if you have real expectations that your plan is going to be a success.

And look: That happens to the best of us. You don't have to go far to find someone in any profession who was certain something made sense when it really didn't. What you're proposing just doesn't make any sense. But, I did sample your books this afternoon on Kindle, and I liked them, so you ought to think about that.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Matthew,

I know it's not going to be a piece of cake, and I know there's a rather significant chance that I will fail.

The definition of courage is being afraid of something, in full knowledge of its risks, and doing it anyway. Whether I succeed or fail, I am young, so I will try it.


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## Christine Merrill (Aug 19, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> The only problem I have with your post is that people still don't get the idea of Kickstarter: most of the people who frequent that site are there to invest in art projects that are cool and don't view it as begging for money.


I can't speak for everyone, but what the hey...

It's not that we don't understand the principal of kickstart, so much as we don't understand how it applies to publishing a book. Because the majority of people here are operating on a shoestring budget, putting up any the upfront costs out of their own pocket, and then selling their books and making money.

Speaking strictly for myself, the initial set up of my self-published book cost $40 or $45 to register the copyright. Everything else, I did for myself with sweat equity. When it made some money, I could afford a better cover, the time to re-edit, an ISBN and advertising. Next, I will re-edit and reset again, do a better cover for a paperback release...

And so it goes. While I admire your vision, I'd be more prone to contribute if you sold me a beta copy of the ebook, and made me believe enough to support your plans to upgrade to a deluxe hardcover edition.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

My first book came out in hardcover too, priced at $28.95. Not many people are willing to shell out that much money for an unknown/unproven author's work, so I echo what Daniel said about them being hard to sell. If you priced them at $25 each and made $10 each, you'd have to sell 300 just to break even. My publisher only sold about 60 copies of my book. I hope you're better at marketing than my publisher was!


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2011)

Dawson,

You know me. You know I run a small press. I know the math probably better than 90% of the people on this board. I crunch the numbers on a daily basis for my business. I know all about positive cash flow and profit/loss analysis and cost/risk ratios. From a purely business perspective, I have to ask: where it all of the money from the first two books?

I understand the point of Kickstarter and all of those similar programs. They are designed to help creative people raise capital for business ventures banks generally won't fund. It is a noble concept. And I have in the past made such investments. But I've done so on projects that the creator convinced me would be successful. You are asking people to invest in your project, and therefore you need more than a "because I want a hardcover and have a dream" to convince them. Where is your business plan? Where is your evidence that you can sell books (i.e. what are the sales figures from your previous two novels?) How much did you make? How much did they actually cost you? What did you do with those profits? My primary concern, as a potential investor, is this: if you haven't made enough profit on the first two books to cover even half of your costs, why should I invest my hard-earned capital in your business venture? If you haven't been able to turn a substantial profit on paperbacks, how are you going to turn a profit on a hardcover? Where is your marketing plan?



> The definition of courage is being afraid of something, in full knowledge of its risks, and doing it anyway.


But this is the point. What risk are YOU personally taking? You are looking to fund this venture with other people's money. There is no inherent risk on your part. You raise the money, the book doesn't sell, you are out nothing but some wounded pride. You may be emotionally invested in the project, but you aren't personally on the hook for the money. It is easy to be brave with other people's money (which is one of the root factors of the financial crash we are still digging out of, by the way). it is not so easy when you have to make personal sacrifices in order to fund your own dreams.

If you came here and said "I have $1,500 already set aside for this project, and here is my marketing plan and my business plan. Here are the sales figures from my last two books." Then I could say "OK, sounds like he has a strong case for his project" and I might take a second look. But you haven't done that, yet.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

> The definition of courage is being afraid of something, in full knowledge of its risks, and doing it anyway.


 Well, that's more the definition of a dream in this case. The definition of courage requires doing something that NEEDS to be done, SHOULD be done and also taking into account that THERE MAY NOT BE A SMARTER WAY TO GET IT DONE. You use courage when all else has failed or when your options are limited. You use courage when you've got nothing else.

Your dream will mean a lot more to you if you earn the money yourself. Many people (and I'm not saying you're one) confuse art with charity. Art should not be supported at all costs or merely because the artist WANTS to make a living at it. If it's not worth the sacrifice on the part of the artist to try and fund it through his own hard work, finding a sponsor is a going to look like a very lazy way out--or someone who is too impatient to take the time to find a more admirable way.

Most of us have worked very hard to get where we are--and I don't mean with publishing, I mean with _life._ Dreams are worth striving for, but there are no shortcuts.


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

FYI: I published a friend's book in hardback on Lulu. 140 pages. Cost per copy: $16.80 (plus s&h)

So let's do a back-of-the-envelope business plan here:

Maybe you want to print 10 of them, just to get started. Cost $160.80 (plus s&h). Let's say 20, because you're a little more optimistic: $321.60; and Lulu gives discounts for big orders; I don't know if 20 qualifies but I'm pretty sure the s&h price goes down.

So you're going to pay your artist $300; and you'll need another $320 for the mini-first run to get started, right? Total $620. Yes, I saw your budget, and you want to do all sorts of other stuff that publishers do. But you don't need to. Review copies? It's unlikely that any newspaper or magazine would review your hardcover however many free copies you sent out. Don't waste your money, don't waste your investors' money. You're far more likely to get reviewers for your ebook with copies given out at no cost to you or your investors.

Editing?/Proofreading: Arkali offers proofreading for $20 retainer plus $1 per goof. That's the deal of the century. For one of my manuscripts, we would be talking $50 to $60, but I'm an editor myself, so I turn in pretty clean stuff. Yours might go higher. Or hey, maybe you're even cleaner than I am and it would be less. But maybe you're not talking about just proofreading, maybe you're talking about a real content edit. If so, $100? I know you said 'at least', but that's still way off, but that's another discussion.

Anyway, best of luck to you.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Steve Silkin said:


> FYI: I published a friend's book in hardback on Lulu. 140 pages. Cost per copy: $16.80 (plus s&h)
> 
> So let's do a back-of-the-envelope business plan here:
> 
> ...


Steve,

No way would I use Lulu to print hardcover--my book is 110 pages more than the one that cost 17 bucks PLUS shipping and handling. LightningSource can print them for about $10 each.

Review copies: about half of them will be sent to places that review indie/self published books on a regular basis (Sacramento Book Review, Midwest Review, Front Street, etc.)

Editing: I can't very well sit down to lunch with Arkali and actually discuss the book with her.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> Steve,
> 
> No way would I use Lulu to print hardcover--my book is 110 pages more than the one that cost 17 bucks PLUS shipping and handling. LightningSource can print them for about $10 each.
> 
> ...


Actually, I'm a her  And with a few exceptions, I do final proofing, not editing, per se. BUT - and this is thrown out there as a thought exercise - let's say I was editing your book. Why, exactly, do we need to go to lunch to discuss your book? Not that I'd turn down a working lunch, but technology is a wonderful thing. You can often get better rates with free-lancers if you look in a different geographic area; someone who lives in a small town in the mid-west can charge a LOT less than someone who lives in NYC.


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## Christine Merrill (Aug 19, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> Editing: I can't very well sit down to lunch with Arkali and actually discuss the book with him.


But even in traditional publishing, most authors don't sit down with the editor. Maybe if you live within a train ride of Manhattan, things are different.

But the rest of us are doing it by mail, email and phone. I see mine once a year for lunch, if I'm lucky and she's in the country (she's in the UK, I'm in Wisconsin). And then it's generally to talk about things other than the current book. Anything we need bookwise can be done with track changes on Word and attached files.


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## tbrookside (Nov 4, 2009)

Since we're popping in and offering advice, I just have to say:

On the off chance you actually manage to secure $3000, you'd almost certainly be infinitely more successful spending $500 getting POD paperback and ebook versions made up and spending $2500 on marketing.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Arkali said:


> Actually, I'm a her  And with a few exceptions, I do final proofing, not editing, per se. BUT - and this is thrown out there as a thought exercise - let's say I was editing your book. Why, exactly, do we need to go to lunch to discuss your book? Not that I'd turn down a working lunch, but technology is a wonderful thing. You can often get better rates with free-lancers if you look in a different geographic area; someone who lives in a small town in the mid-west can charge a LOT less than someone who lives in NYC.


Fixed the gender thing.

Just a note--I live in a small town in the midwest. 

Physically looking at print and talking about a book in person is very, very different than simply using technology to talk about it instead. If I have the opportunity to talk about it in person, that's a great advantage and I will pounce on the opportunity.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not trying to do this "like the rest of us"--because I've published two books that way and it didn't really work. The goals are a bit different, and even if we shared the same goals, I could still use a different method. Why not try it when I'm young?

One of the goals with my book is to come out with a book as professional as it possibly can, and with two brothers that are excellent designers I have a high bar for that. The reason I started the Kickstarter thing was because I found out about Kickstarter--that I could do the things I had always wanted with my book but I couldn't afford.

(I also learned from my last two books to give yourself more time than you think you need between the completion of the book and its publication date  I got Double Life done a week and a half before the first book signing. That wasn't good.)

tbrookside: That's a pretty good point.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

If he doesn't raise the $3000 via Kickstarter, no one is out a dime. If you pledge $30, you get a copy of the hardback (if the project is funded, of course) and a map. That's a reasonable value for $30. 

If you want to see a sample, there's a link on the Kickstarter project page with the first chapter. You can sample the milk. 

Money flows towards the writer? I get that. I guess that means that everyone who is self-pubbing never lets money flow toward a cover artist, professional editing, etc.? When you wear two hats, and one of them is the publisher hat, there may be a need to let some money flow outward. 

I don't think his list of expenses or his goal is unreasonable. It's a fantasy about an apprentice mapmaker and I appreciate his vision of a hardback that attempts to look like an old, antique book. 

I say go for it. My only advice might have been to write the book first and then as a Kickstarter incentive for a $5 or $10 donation he could have given away the ebook.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

tbrookside said:


> Since we're popping in and offering advice, I just have to say:
> 
> On the off chance you actually manage to secure $3000, you'd almost certainly be infinitely more successful spending $500 getting POD paperback and ebook versions made up and spending $2500 on marketing.


Actually, if he does secure the $3,000 from his current fundraiser, he will have to get the hard copies. That's what the investors get back.

Dawson - I know how it is to be young and have a vision. I also know how *hard* it is to sell hard copy books. It's a lot harder to sell them than it is to sell a $2.99 ebook. So, if it's harder to sell the hard copy book, why are you taking a step backward?

I know you're having trouble selling your ebooks. But there's a reason for it. Why? Maybe it's the cover. Maybe the writing needs to be tightened up. Have you joined a critique group? Maybe you need to do more marketing. I haven't seen you around here for months.

IMHO, you need to diagnose the issues with your current ebooks. Once you do that, you'll be that much further ahead to making your hard copy a reality. Why would you want to spend $3,000 just to find out that the same issues lie with the new project as with the old?

Vicki


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, my .02 - ESPECIALLY because you are young, and, I'm guessing, have no expenses: get a job. Any job. Flip burgers if you have to. I'm pretty sure that minimum wage is $7.25 / hr. now. At 20 per week, that's $145 per week, minus 33% for taxes, FICA, etc. That's just shy of a $100 per week. That's about 8 months, maybe less because you can work more hours during the summer, so probably closer to 6 months. That will guarantee you your start-up cash.

P.S.: The above wasn't meant to come across as snotty, so I hope it's not taken that way. That's just real-world "I need money, how'm I gonna get it?" advice as opposed to pie-in-the-sky "This might happen." KickStarter _might_ work for you, it might not. But don't _ever_ wait on or rely on strangers to do for you what you can do for yourself, and that is advice you can take to the bank. My father, who is 89 years old now, is a doctor (still practicing) and both of his parents were school teachers. He paid his way through medical school by going to door-to-door and collecting shirts from people and ironing them for a nickel a shirt. This is going to come across as preachy, but it bears saying: You can rely on yourself. Don't pin your hopes and dreams on other people, especially people you don't know. Figure out a way to do for yourself and you'll never go wrong.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Listen to Vicki. A kinder, wiser person is hard to find, and she's an incredible writer, too.

And she's a mom, so she knows how to give good Mom Advice... (I'm guessing on the quality of her mom advice, but it's a good bet.)



Victorine said:


> Actually, if he does secure the $3,000 from his current fundraiser, he will have to get the hard copies. That's what the investors get back.
> 
> Dawson - I know how it is to be young and have a vision. I also know how *hard* it is to sell hard copy books. It's a lot harder to sell them than it is to sell a $2.99 ebook. So, if it's harder to sell the hard copy book, why are you taking a step backward?
> 
> ...


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Dawson, dear, you are a wonderfully talented young person with a lot of ambition. But what in the name of all that is good and holy do you need $3,000 for? From a business perspective, if the books haven't sold enough volume in paperback and digital format to cover the cost of printing hardcover, don't throw money down the toilet on a hardcover. The only reason major publishers print hardcover is to sell to libraries, which prefer hardcover. Publishers make their bread and butter on paperbacks. And if you look at the bestsellers lists, you'll see that many publishers are even forgoing hardcover for some of their bigger titles. Nowadays publishers only produce hardcovers for library editions or books with huge collectible value to the fanbase (Harry Potter, Twilight, etc). There is no rational business reason to blow $3,000 on the book, particularly if your last books didn't generate any profit. And if your last books DID make a profit, then where is that money? Because if it just got spent on non-publishing stuff and you didn't have the business wherewithall to invest it in your next project, then there is a bit of vanity at play to ask us to fund your next book, don't you think?


This. ^^^

Work hard enough on marketing your current eBooks and you'll make enough to back your own project. Then you won't need to have others fund it, who will want to be paid back. With interest.

Check into Amazon's CreateSpace for a better way to appear in print...


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## tbrookside (Nov 4, 2009)

> Actually, if he does secure the $3,000 from his current fundraiser, he will have to get the hard copies. That's what the investors get back.


That's a good point.

I was speaking more in the spirit of "If someone gave you $3000, and you wanted to sell the maximum number of books, what would be the smartest thing to do?"

You're right in that the hardcover plan boxes her into one particular approach.

I think she's getting really good advice from other posters, especially Julie.

One thing that has to be said, though (and I'll be the grumpy old man to say it), dream or no dream, is this:

For a long time, self-publishing was a sucker's bet. One reason people who self-published were looked at as a little bit foolish is because they would spend thousands of dollars getting hardcovers printed, and then those books would sit in a garage gathering dust because the author was unable to sell them. The entire reason that there's an indie publishing "revolution" now is because changes to POD systems and the rise of ebooks made it possible for authors to directly distribute their work without needing to spend thousands upfront on printing, delivery, and storage. The OP is taking a step _backwards_ in the direction of an approach that is very likely to fail, and I think we need to not pull punches when telling her that.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Dawson's a guy, just as an FYI


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Arkali said:


> Dawson's a guy, just as an FYI


Yup, he's a guy... and not as nice a one as we think! EVIDENCE (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/57cd8635ef/asshole-for-hire)


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> LightningSource can print them for about $10 each. ... about half of them will be sent to places that review indie/self published books on a regular basis (Sacramento Book Review, Midwest Review, Front Street, etc.)


even better! you can get it printed cheaper than i thought you could! so if you print 20, and sell 10 to friends and send 10 out for review at publications that you believe are likely to review it, we're still talking about a project that's highly feasible with an investment of far less than 3k. in any case, best of luck to you.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

CreateSpace.

Virtually no out-of-pocket and they print on-demand as people order them....

https://www.createspace.com/Products/Book/


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Asher MacDonald said:


> If he doesn't raise the $3000 via Kickstarter, no one is out a dime. If you pledge $30, you get a copy of the hardback (if the project is funded, of course) and a map. That's a reasonable value for $30.
> 
> If you want to see a sample, there's a link on the Kickstarter project page with the first chapter. You can sample the milk.
> 
> ...


SOMEONE GETS IT!

Good idea with the eBooks as a reward--should have thought of that.

Craig: with Kickstarter you give because it's a creative project that you want to support; you don't pay the investors back.

Vicki: Basically my first print run of 100 books is a guaranteed sell. One of my marketing campaigns is a partnership with my local library's teen summer reading program (the theme this year ties in PERFECTLY with the mapmaking theme) and we're going to promote the heck out of it around town. There are lots of teens who read hiding in the woodwork of our town who join the SRP, and that's the best way to reach them.

My problem has been in marketing, simply because I have not been going to the places where my audience lives. I'm not marketing to adults who read thrillers, romance, or literary fiction. I'm marketing to kids like me: nerdy teens who read sci fi and fantasy. I can't reach them the way you reach your audience. Sure, lots of people would enjoy it, but it's hard to pitch to them because it's hard to sell nerdy teen sci fi and fantasy to adults who read thrillers, romance, and literary fiction.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

I don't know if Kickstarter lets you change your rewards for contributions, but if they do go back in and you can include an ebook version at every tier. At tier 1, you get news and eventually the ebook. Tier 2 is the map and ebook. Etc. Even someone getting the hardback might appreciate an ebook version as well.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Asher MacDonald said:


> I don't know if Kickstarter lets you change your rewards for contributions, but if they do go back in and you can include an ebook version at every tier. At tier 1, you get news and eventually the ebook. Tier 2 is the map and ebook. Etc. Even someone getting the hardback might appreciate an ebook version as well.


Yeah, you can change your rewards. I'm getting on that!


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> SOMEONE GETS IT!


Please stop this. It is the same thing as when authors trash reviewers when they don't like their work, by saying they "don't get it". People are telling you they don't like the idea. They don't like you coming here asking writers to fund a fellow writer, when most here are struggling to do the same. Many think it's absurd to even ask for money. Others are telling you why hardback is completely pointless unless you're going for libraries (do you really think whether or not its paperback or hardcover will be the deciding factor for these places to review your book? I have a feeling the quality of writing on page 1 will be 1000% more important).

Yet when someone says something somewhat agreeable to you, we get an all caps SOMEONE GETS IT message. It's insulting. We all get what you're trying to do. You've spelled it out clearly. Some people here, myself included, simply think this is a bad idea. And frankly, getting tired of the age excuse as well. Young or old, this idea is flawed from the start. If your first two kindle books sold poorly, and in a sense, failed...why should people pay YOU to write another? Why is your story any more special than anyone else here? I know people here who are waking up at 4 in the morning to write before work, others who are sacrificing lunch breaks to crank out another 500 words. Others are sneaking in writing and promotion between babysitting, grandkids, or their own families. I don't see them asking for handouts..and that is what this is. It's a handout. It isn't some project that will better a community. This isn't a public garden, or clean drinking water, or funding for a new arts center. It is you getting paid to do what many here have sacrificed to do themselves. There is no guarantee of quality. There is no aiding of anyone but yourself.

Sorry if this sounds cynical. Personally, if you're that convinced in this idea, I say just get a job, save the money, and take the risk yourself. Right now, you want everyone to risk money, and you to risk...nothing.

David Dalglish


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2011)

Dawsburg said:


> My problem has been in marketing, simply because I have not been going to the places where my audience lives. I'm not marketing to adults who read thrillers, romance, or literary fiction. I'm marketing to kids like me: nerdy teens who read sci fi and fantasy. I can't reach them the way you reach your audience. Sure, lots of people would enjoy it, but it's hard to pitch to them because it's hard to sell nerdy teen sci fi and fantasy to adults who read thrillers, romance, and literary fiction.


And how will us giving you $3,000 change your ability to market?

I will ask the question yet again: where is your business plan? Where is your marketing plan? Give me a reason to want to invest my money in your project instead of the seventy I have on the burner right now.

You keep digging in your heels, covering your ears, and basically pulling a "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING" to everyone who has offered exceptionally strong, pragmatic, and realistic advice, and only shown interest in the few post that support your pipe dream. You may understanding the POD process from a technical perspective, but you haven't shown any grasp of the business end of it. That is all I am asking of you. Demonstrate that you have the business end down, and then come talk to us about investing in your project.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

He's using Kickstarter the way dozens of other writers have used it. 

Someone recently raised over $9000 for a memoir about living with someone with Alzheimer's. Some magazine named Fuse raised over $2000 to print its second issue. Somebody raised $775 to fund a novel. The money is to be used for editing and printing costs, according to the author. Another author raised nearly $3000 to help with costs for a collection of humor columns she wrote. Some NY broadsheet has raised nearly $6000. What this kid is doing is no different from what anyone else is doing on Kickstarter. 

I can understand some objecting to his manner here, or criticizing his strategy, but i don't think there's anything wrong about his using Kickstarter for its intended use. 

"Hey, I have a book project in the works. Check it out, and if you're interested you have a chance to pre-buy the hardback for $30."

"Hey, I have a book for sale. Check it out, and if you're interested you can buy it for $X.XX." 

Is there really that big of a difference in the two statements?


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## tbrookside (Nov 4, 2009)

Arkali said:


> Dawson's a guy, just as an FYI


Whoops! I scanned the thread too quickly and thought your post saying "I'm a her!" was from the OP. My bad.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

What I'm hearing a lot of, though, is that I should publish it the way that you are. Isn't that the mistake traditional publishers make?

I'm connecting with reading programs at libraries (who use the same theme our library does--it's on a national level) and selling to schools (I've been writing a curriculum for geography and English classes that ties in with the book). These involve having copies of the book, and that costs money--if I can have access to $3000 to market this, why wouldn't I try that?


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Well, Dawsburg, I didn't have time to read all three pages, but I could see where it was going.  Welcome back, my friend.  Where have you been keeping yourself?  What do you think about all this?  Good luck with your endeavor.  If I win the lottery, I'll send you the money.    In the meantime, keep on writing and promoting the best you can on all the relatively free sites like here and Twitter and Facebook.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Brendan Carroll said:


> Well, Dawsburg, I didn't have time to read all three pages, but I could see where it was going. Welcome back, my friend. Where have you been keeping yourself? What do you think about all this? Good luck with your endeavor. If I win the lottery, I'll send you the money.  In the meantime, keep on writing and promoting the best you can on all the relatively free sites like here and Twitter and Facebook.


I've been locked up, singing songs and working on this little project of mine. 

What do you mean what do I think of all of it?


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING"


Billy Crystal just shot through the thread...... good to see you, Miracle Max!!!


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

I can only offer best wishes for every success in your project! Good luck.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> What I'm hearing a lot of, though, is that I should publish it the way that you are. Isn't that the mistake traditional publishers make?
> 
> I'm connecting with reading programs at libraries (who use the same theme our library does--it's on a national level) and selling to schools (I've been writing a curriculum for geography and English classes that ties in with the book). These involve having copies of the book, and that costs money--if I can have access to $3000 to market this, why wouldn't I try that?


I think what you're hearing a lot of is something you don't understand, so you completely miss the point.

People here have done what you're doing, and know people who have done what you're doing, and it's not a very successful technique. It's a great way to lose a lot of money and time. If you want to, as Will Rogers says, pee on the electric fence for yourself, that's your privilege and nobody's trying to stop you. But don't try to convince us that it's a good idea.

I also don't think you realize that there is a diverse group, here. Geeky young sf fans? That's not an alien concept here. There are sf writers here. And a lot of geeks. (Some young, some not so much.) There is a lot of information around here to help you succeed.

Don't be so narrow minded. If you're going to be bold, be bold in thought too. Think outside the box.

Camille


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> What I'm hearing a lot of, though, is that I should publish it the way that you are. Isn't that the mistake traditional publishers make?
> 
> I'm connecting with reading programs at libraries (who use the same theme our library does--it's on a national level) and selling to schools (I've been writing a curriculum for geography and English classes that ties in with the book). These involve having copies of the book, and that costs money--if I can have access to $3000 to market this, why wouldn't I try that?


I'm not going to comment on the second paragraph of what you're saying, although that seems sound. But, regarding your first paragraph:

Traditional publishers are making some mistakes, and it has to do with not being nimble enough to take advantage of new technology (in a nutshell). It has nothing to do with doing it this way or that way because our way is the right way. That came out confusing. Basically - follow Julie's advice. You can never go wrong by writing a sound business plan. Crunch the numbers. Run various scenarios. Don't just do it one way or the other to buck the trend or because it seems like a cool idea - get the numbers to back you up.

PS: I still think you'll get your $3k quicker (maybe even by the end of summer) by grabbing a job than waiting on KickStarter. Could be wrong, though.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

My market doesn't live here on Kindleboards. There are some here, but it's not where they congregate. They live at places like library summer reading programs and spend most of their day at school. Thus, my plan evolves.

The thing you should also think about--look at other Kickstarter projects. How many of them outline exact marketing plans? Lots of them aren't going to sell anything. They're just making something cool.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> My market doesn't live here on Kindleboards. There are some here, but it's not where they congregate. They live at places like library summer reading programs and spend most of their day at school. Thus, my plan evolves.
> 
> The thing you should also think about--look at other Kickstarter projects. How many of them outline exact marketing plans? Lots of them aren't going to sell anything. They're just making something cool.


This is true, but I think Arkali is saying you need to know your audience, and if you pitch something here your audience here is interested in how you plan to profit from it?

What Dawson says is right, though. Kickstarter isn't about funding commercial enterprises as much as it's about funding artistic endeavors or projects that are of benefit to communities.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Asher MacDonald said:


> This is true, but I think Arkali is saying you need to know your audience, and if you pitch something here your audience here is interested in how you plan to profit from it?


Profit from promotion on Kindleboards?


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Arkali said:


> PS: I still think you'll get your $3k quicker (maybe even by the end of summer) by grabbing a job than waiting on KickStarter. Could be wrong, though.


Or both! If you start a job now and save up, you may be able to proceed with your plan even if the Kickstarter fundraiser doesn't meet goal. If I understand correctly, if you fall even $1 shy of your goal, everyone who's pledged gets their money back. If you really believe in this project, and if it means this much to you, you'll do whatever it takes to make it happen. That's how most of us are about our writing -- it's why we've self-published in the first place.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

kcmay said:


> Or both! If you start a job now and save up, you may be able to proceed with your plan even if the Kickstarter fundraiser doesn't meet goal. If I understand correctly, if you fall even $1 shy of your goal, everyone who's pledged gets their money back. If you really believe in this project, and if it means this much to you, you'll do whatever it takes to make it happen. That's how most of us are about our writing -- it's why we've self-published in the first place.


Rather, they don't pay any money unless it reaches the goal. You don't get charged until then.

And if it came to the point of being a dollar short I would throw in my own dollar


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> Profit from promotion on Kindleboards?


lol, believe it or not, we do sell books here.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

John Fitch V said:


> lol, believe it or not, we do sell books here.


I was just trying to clear up the question.  Of course I know we sell books.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Dawsburg said:


> What I'm hearing a lot of, though, is that I should publish it the way that you are. Isn't that the mistake traditional publishers make?
> 
> I'm connecting with reading programs at libraries (who use the same theme our library does--it's on a national level) and selling to schools (I've been writing a curriculum for geography and English classes that ties in with the book). These involve having copies of the book, and that costs money--if I can have access to $3000 to market this, why wouldn't I try that?


Uh, no, what you are hearing is go earn money instead of asking for it. Yes, others are doing it on kickstart, but that doesn't mean I support them or the method either. My issue with it is that you are asking for a handout (a pig is still a pig whether you put lipstick on it or not) when you are perfectly capable of getting the money some other way.

And no, asking someone to buy my book is not the same as saying, "invest in the book before I can buy it." One is a finished product, the other is asking for money upfront for a project that is not yet complete.

Again, it doesn't matter to me whether you go this route or not, I just don't happen to support it.


----------



## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Please stop this. It is the same thing as when authors trash reviewers when they don't like their work, by saying they "don't get it". People are telling you they don't like the idea. They don't like you coming here asking writers to fund a fellow writer, when most here are struggling to do the same. Many think it's absurd to even ask for money. Others are telling you why hardback is completely pointless unless you're going for libraries (do you really think whether or not its paperback or hardcover will be the deciding factor for these places to review your book? I have a feeling the quality of writing on page 1 will be 1000% more important).
> 
> Yet when someone says something somewhat agreeable to you, we get an all caps SOMEONE GETS IT message. It's insulting. We all get what you're trying to do. You've spelled it out clearly. Some people here, myself included, simply think this is a bad idea. And frankly, getting tired of the age excuse as well. Young or old, this idea is flawed from the start. If your first two kindle books sold poorly, and in a sense, failed...why should people pay YOU to write another? Why is your story any more special than anyone else here? I know people here who are waking up at 4 in the morning to write before work, others who are sacrificing lunch breaks to crank out another 500 words. Others are sneaking in writing and promotion between babysitting, grandkids, or their own families. I don't see them asking for handouts..and that is what this is. It's a handout. It isn't some project that will better a community. This isn't a public garden, or clean drinking water, or funding for a new arts center. It is you getting paid to do what many here have sacrificed to do themselves. There is no guarantee of quality. There is no aiding of anyone but yourself.
> 
> ...


This. All of this. I wish there was a little "applause" smiley.


----------



## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> He's using Kickstarter the way dozens of other writers have used it.
> 
> Someone recently raised over $9000 for a memoir about living with someone with Alzheimer's. Some magazine named Fuse raised over $2000 to print its second issue. Somebody raised $775 to fund a novel. The money is to be used for editing and printing costs, according to the author. Another author raised nearly $3000 to help with costs for a collection of humor columns she wrote. Some NY broadsheet has raised nearly $6000. What this kid is doing is no different from what anyone else is doing on Kickstarter.
> 
> ...


I think there is a fundamental difference, a profound one, in fact, between someone searching for funding to write for early onset Alzheimers and someone interested in writing young adult fiction. I fail to see how anyone could effectively make the argument that they are one in the same. I fail to see how anyone could make the argument that people who are inclined to donate to the former would definitely be inclined to donate to the latter. The comparison is asinine. The only similarity is that they happen to be "books". So what? So too were "The Cat in the Hat" and "The Bible".


----------



## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't know about you guys... but after all this cold weather, and with my knees bugging me, and with my back going out on me after shoveling so much snow... I'd like someone to fund my move to Hawai'i. 

Anyone wanna chip in?


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Matthew Stewart said:


> I think there is a fundamental difference, a profound one, in fact, between someone searching for funding to write for early onset Alzheimers and someone interested in writing young adult fiction. I fail to see how anyone could effectively make the argument that they are one in the same. I fail to see how anyone could make the argument that people who are inclined to donate to the former would definitely be inclined to donate to the latter. The comparison is asinine. The only similarity is that they happen to be "books". So what? So too were "The Cat in the Hat" and "The Bible".


That wasn't the only example he used though.

John--that was just in a bit of bad taste.


----------



## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

I couldn't taste anything, actually. I had a cold for a while.


----------



## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Dawsburg said:


> My market doesn't live here on Kindleboards. There are some here, but it's not where they congregate. They live at places like library summer reading programs and spend most of their day at school. Thus, my plan evolves.
> 
> The thing you should also think about--look at other Kickstarter projects. How many of them outline exact marketing plans? Lots of them aren't going to sell anything. They're just making something cool.


Your project isn't like most successful Kickstarter projects. If it was, there would be lots more people here doing just what you're trying to do. Again: Kickstarter generally caters to arts programs and projects that focus on public interest, diseases or general wellness. It's very rarely successful when used for vanity or entertainment projects, so what you're doing does not necessarily have the same chances of working.

It is sort of like following a business model for selling apples when you are, in fact, selling oranges.


----------



## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Diseases and general wellness? Where do you get that? It's about artistic projects. A book is an artistic project.

One of the most famous ones is Punk Mathematics. That's not in any of those categories. It's a math book plus punk rock. I'd call that entertainment.


----------



## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Dawsburg said:


> That wasn't the only example he used though.
> 
> John--that was just in a bit of bad taste.


So let's go over the other examples:

_Some magazine named Fuse raised over $2000 to print its second issue. _

Fuse is a collection of writers and dancers putting together a publication. They have over 15 professional sponsorships, and a large portion of the donors are self-identified all across the internet as members of the Fuse writing team. Very little of the "KickStarter" money was original donation, and the upfront money was contributed by its staff members in order to give their fundraising some momentum. The editor of Fuse owns her own publishing contract and has been fairly upfront about leveraging her connections within her industries to generate the funding.

_Somebody raised $775 to fund a novel.
_

This is rather vague and thus difficult for me to search. Though $775 is not $3,000.

_Another author raised nearly $3000 to help with costs for a collection of humor columns she wrote. 
Some NY broadsheet has raised nearly $6000. _

Both of these examples are of established professionals or professional organizations with bodies of work that have been supported by an already existing readership. They are more commercial in nature than most of the Kickstarter funded projects, but they also have the benefit of credentialed recognition: a a large body of work that investors can refer to and rely upon to satisfy any concerns. You don't have that. You have two ebooks which, apparently (I am only assuming this from what others have said in this thread) have not sold well.

_What this kid is doing is no different from what anyone else is doing on Kickstarter. _

It sure is. It's not a public interest project, it's not supported or created by a professional or someone with pragmatic experience. What this "kid" (?) is doing is exactly what everyone else here is doing, except most everyone else here is attempting to do it without donations. It's certainly admirable to attempt it, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. I think most of the advice offered here has not been along the lines of "SHAME ON YOU!", so there really is no need to be defensive. What most people are pointing out is that this will, in fact, fail. It will fail miserably. And it will likely result in Dawsburg's project suffering as a result.

And he has a lot of potential, so instead of seeing that happen, most people have suggested he work harder at making his product the best it can be without all of this frankly daft expectations.

I also think Daws is a little unnecessarily defensive, because in the end, if he believes enough in this, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks about the fruitlessness of Kickstarter.


----------



## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Dawsburg said:


> Diseases and general wellness? Where do you get that? It's about artistic projects. A book is an artistic project.
> 
> One of the most famous ones is Punk Mathematics. That's not in any of those categories. It's a math book plus punk rock. I'd call that entertainment.


You misunderstood what I was saying.

Most of the successful projects on Kickstarter are funded for charitable purposes, such as bringing public awareness to diseases or general wellness. Such as the Alzheimers example, Words Without Borders, A Film About the History of New Orleans, Artistic Projects related to marine life, and so on.

Edit: As noted above, there are occasional exceptions, but those exceptions are overwhelmingly created by industry professionals or supported by industry professionals.

Your project is essentially a vanity or entertainment project, it does not serve the public good, it serves the Dawsburg good.


----------



## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Matthew Stewart said:


> You misunderstood what I was saying.
> 
> Most of the successful projects on Kickstarter are funded for charitable purposes, such as bringing public awareness to diseases or general wellness. Such as the Alzheimers example, Words Without Borders, A Film About the History of New Orleans, Artistic Projects related to marine life, and so on.
> 
> ...


It's not a charity site. It's an art site. It stipulates such. Specifically.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Half-Orc said:


> Please stop this. It is the same thing as when authors trash reviewers when they don't like their work, by saying they "don't get it". People are telling you they don't like the idea. They don't like you coming here asking writers to fund a fellow writer, when most here are struggling to do the same. Many think it's absurd to even ask for money. Others are telling you why hardback is completely pointless unless you're going for libraries (do you really think whether or not its paperback or hardcover will be the deciding factor for these places to review your book? I have a feeling the quality of writing on page 1 will be 1000% more important).
> 
> Yet when someone says something somewhat agreeable to you, we get an all caps SOMEONE GETS IT message. It's insulting. We all get what you're trying to do. You've spelled it out clearly. Some people here, myself included, simply think this is a bad idea. And frankly, getting tired of the age excuse as well. Young or old, this idea is flawed from the start. If your first two kindle books sold poorly, and in a sense, failed...why should people pay YOU to write another? Why is your story any more special than anyone else here? I know people here who are waking up at 4 in the morning to write before work, others who are sacrificing lunch breaks to crank out another 500 words. Others are sneaking in writing and promotion between babysitting, grandkids, or their own families. I don't see them asking for handouts..and that is what this is. It's a handout. It isn't some project that will better a community. This isn't a public garden, or clean drinking water, or funding for a new arts center. It is you getting paid to do what many here have sacrificed to do themselves. There is no guarantee of quality. There is no aiding of anyone but yourself.
> 
> ...


I agree with David. 100%

Furthermore, I reviewed your first novel. I gave it 3 Stars...for a "pre-teen" book. I looked at your other reviews. To be honest, you just don't have the "street cred" to be asking people to donate so that you can write a third book.

Worse, you are trying to raise money to print a book on paper by posting on KINDLEboards. Get the "Kindle" part? Kind of silly, in my eBook. 

And, you've even gone so far as to ask for said donations in the section of the forum where all the authors hang out. You know the ones, the authors who publish their books on the Kindle. It's good enough for them, why not for you?


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Dawsburg said:


> It's not a charity site. It's an art site. It stipulates such. Specifically.


I know what it stipulates. Specifically. I am also not a bumbling rube, and I happen to have a set of functioning eyeballs. It does not take a lot of surfing on the Kickstarter web-site to see what sorts of projects are generally receiving funding.

Some of the featured projects right now:

A Book of Photography "Bringing to light the deficient India Pubic School System"
An Anthology Celebrating the 25 Largest American Cities
An Art Book Studying and Celebrating the History of New Orleans Mardi Gras Costumes
A Graphic Novel
A Mustache Tattoo Project
A Film To Be the "First Feature Set in Gaza in 15 Years"
A Film Studying the History of New Orleans Culture
A Book of Photography About Marine Life in California

So 6 of the 8 I just listed, on their front freaking page, are pretty clearly philanthropy driven art projects.

You can pretend that people don't understand this, but they do.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Write your book.  Sell it on kindle as a e-book.  Raise money that way to print a hard copy if you need it.

Get a paper route.  Raise money shoveling snow.  But asking other authors for money is just not a great idea.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Matthew Stewart said:


> I know what it stipulates. Specifically. I am also not a bumbling rube, and I happen to have a set of functioning eyeballs. It does not take a lot of surfing on the Kickstarter web-site to see what sorts of projects are generally receiving funding.
> 
> Some of the featured projects right now:
> 
> ...


How is a Mardi Gras costume book a philanthropy?

Truly and honestly I don't care if you specifically give me money. I wasn't really expecting an here. I know authors don't typically have lots of cash (I am one). That doesn't merit such responses as I've gotten.


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## Christine Merrill (Aug 19, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> How is a Mardi Gras costume book a philanthropy?


The area was damaged by floods, so a lot of the actual costumes and attached picture and info may have been lost or at risk. I have a background in professional theater and costume history. I'd definitely shell out for an effort to preserve Mardi Gras info. It's a cultural gold mine.

So, different strokes for different folks.


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Dawsburg said:


> How is a Mardi Gras costume book a philanthropy?
> 
> Truly and honestly I don't care if you specifically give me money. I wasn't really expecting an here. I know authors don't typically have lots of cash (I am one). That doesn't merit such responses as I've gotten.


Mardi Gras is a pretty significant part of the cultural fabric and history of New Orleans as a city. It is at the very heart of its identity.

That's fine. I don't think anyone is aiming to upset you. I am curious though as to what has bothered you about the responses you've gotten? Most people have trie to be helpful, and you've mostly ignored or debated that help. Which is fine! That's your right and all. But you did create this thread with the purpose of bringing to light donations, and have instead chosen to debate the help that you've received because it is apparently not being received in the way you'd like to receive it.

I'm sort of curious about that.

Also! When all is said and done, I'd rather be wrong than right, because if there is such a place on the internet where an upstart writing fiction can get $3,000 in a couple of months basically just-because, I'd like to get on board.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Matthew Stewart said:


> You misunderstood what I was saying.
> 
> Most of the successful projects on Kickstarter are funded for charitable purposes, such as bringing public awareness to diseases or general wellness. Such as the Alzheimers example, Words Without Borders, A Film About the History of New Orleans, Artistic Projects related to marine life, and so on.
> 
> ...


There's a wide variety of projects on Kickstarter. There is no litmus test about them having to serve the public good. Many have been novels. Regardless, the people vote with their wallets. A project gets funded or it doesn't. Projects that aren't funded do not get any money at all. In fact, no money ever changes hands.

Further, not just anyone can put a project up on Kickstarter. There's a vetting process, although I believe someone who has previously had a Kickstarter project may have a limited number of invites to hand out.

Please tell me what is wrong with the following scenario: I want to write a children's book about Fannie the Frog. I am not an illustrator. I believe I have a great story to tell, but I do not have the cash to hire the artist. Why not try to solicit pledges through Kickstarter? No one's arm is being twisted. People read about my project and decide it's interesting enough that they want to help fund it. If they fund at a certain level, they are promised a copy of the book.

What exactly is wrong with availing myself of this option? The world needs to hear the story of Fannie the Frog!


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

Matthew Stewart said:


> Mardi Gras is a pretty significant part of the cultural fabric and history of New Orleans as a city. It is at the very heart of its identity.


And where else can you see.... never mind.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Asher MacDonald said:


> This is true, but I think Arkali is saying you need to know your audience, and if you pitch something here your audience here is interested in how you plan to profit from it?
> 
> What Dawson says is right, though. Kickstarter isn't about funding commercial enterprises as much as it's about funding artistic endeavors or projects that are of benefit to communities.


Actually, what I'm saying is "Make a plan." Even if it's just for you. And if you want the plan to be useful, you need data. Doing hardbacks because they're "cool" (or whatever your gut feeling is) isn't very useful from a business perspective if you don't have the data to back that up. And that's all stuff for you. Sure, investors want to see it, but you can't be nearly as effective without it.


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> There's a wide variety of projects on Kickstarter. There is no litmus test about them having to serve the public good. Many have been novels. Regardless, the people vote with their wallets. A project gets funded or it doesn't. Projects that aren't funded do not get any money at all. In fact, no money ever changes hands.
> 
> Further, not just anyone can put a project up on Kickstarter. There's a vetting process, although I believe someone who has previously had a Kickstarter project may have a limited number of invites to hand out.
> 
> ...


There's nothing wrong with it. I don't know how many times and how many different people have to say that. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just not going to work, that's all.

You are totally within your rights as a citizen of this planet to completely and totally waste your time, and then waste more of your time defending that waste of time. Go right ahead.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Matthew Stewart said:


> Also! When all is said and done, I'd rather be wrong than right, because if there is such a place on the internet where an upstart writing fiction can get $3,000 in a couple of months basically just-because, I'd like to get on board.


Dude, I saw a project months back that got funded. It was only $300, but it was only to produce and release for free as a PDF a short story the writer had already written. That's it. He wanted $300 to go through the laborious process of making a PDF and then uploading it bit by bit by hand to his website. The guy got $330 in funding.

Here's a guy right now who has gotten $13,099 in funding to complete a book on Monadic Design Patterns for the web, whatever that means.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1499410734/monadic-design-patterns-for-the-web-book?ref=category

When you look at Kickstarter, some stuff is cool, some is weird, and some is headscratching. And not everything gets funded. Some cool things die on the vine and some ridiculous things get a wheelbarrow full of cash. What's ridiculous to me may be fascinating to you.

(And also, no doubt lots of friends and family chip in pledges too. Mom really wants to fund your dream!)


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

I have a once-bitten, twice shy take on this.  A well known author could not get a contract for a book from the trad publishing houses and decided to sell it chapter by chapter on the internet.  Book was supposed to be 10 chapters long.  Last summer (actually, summer 2009), chapter seven was posted, after a six month delay.  Still waiting for the rest.


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## OliverCrommer (May 17, 2010)

Julie is making a lot of sense in this thread. I have to agree with her.


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> Dude, I saw a project months back that got funded. It was only $300, but it was only to produce and release for free as a PDF a short story the writer had already written. That's it. He wanted $300 to go through the laborious process of making a PDF and then uploading it bit by bit by hand to his website. The guy got $330 in funding.
> 
> Here's a guy right now who has gotten $13,099 in funding to complete a book on Monadic Design Patterns for the web, whatever that means.
> 
> ...


Monadic Design Patterns are pipeline-building in functional computer programming. Not a vanity project. Again: If Dawsburg was helping build the frontiers of the internet, yes, I would consider throwing him some money.

You're right about not everything getting funded. I still haven't seen a single convincing reason (or really a reason at all, for that matter) as to why Dawsburg's thing is either cool or deserving of funding. He says he cares about it deeply, and that's nice, and that it is a functional part of his story, and that's nice, but that doesn't really separate him from the pack.

And you're also right about a thing being ridiculous to one person being cool to another. Like I said: I hope I am wrong.

I'm just pretty certain I'm not wrong. There's not $3,000 in project donations for this project, and Kickstarter's intentions as a site aren't going to make that money magically appear.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Matthew Stewart said:


> There's nothing wrong with it. I don't know how many times and how many different people have to say that. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just not going to work, that's all.
> 
> You are totally within your rights as a citizen of this planet to completely and totally waste your time, and then waste more of your time defending that waste of time. Go right ahead.


It has worked! Freewheel, a graphic novel, pledged to $2200.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/55881295/freewheel-volume-two-by-liz-baillie?ref=category

Here's a guy who asked for $500 to finish his second novel. He needed time to write and his job was getting in the way, or something like that. He got funded. Hey, he asked and he got it. People can tsk tsk all they want, but no one forced anyone to make a pledge:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260428906/help-me-write-my-second-novel

There are 20 pages, each with six projects, of successfully funded books that I can see.

Returns and Exchanges, a novel funded for $5000:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1716880718/returns-and-exchanges-a-ground-breaking-novel-for


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> Diseases and general wellness? Where do you get that? It's about artistic projects. A book is an artistic project.
> 
> One of the most famous ones is Punk Mathematics. That's not in any of those categories. It's a math book plus punk rock. I'd call that entertainment.


Teaching math isn't entertainment. You can do it in an entertaining way, but no, they aren't the same.

Btw: If you want to get more traction on your project, you might talk more about the curriculum you're basing around it. If you take some time to do some research on how many kids have problems with geography and how your curriculum could overcome that, I suspect you'd get people interested on a more philanthropic level.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Arkali said:


> Teaching math isn't entertainment. You can do it in an entertaining way, but no, they aren't the same.
> 
> Btw: If you want to get more traction on your project, you might talk more about the curriculum you're basing around it. If you take some time to do some research on how many kids have problems with geography and how your curriculum could overcome that, I suspect you'd get people interested on a more philanthropic level.


That's an awesome idea! I'll update that in right now!


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Asher:

You seem to be doing very little research on who the authors of these books are or who their donors are, and I'm not going to sit here for the rest of the evening giving you individual reasons for why each example that you are providing is fundamentally different than Dawburg's project. 

You also seem to be doing very little listening in this thread, as a great majority of the advice given out has been overwhelmingly positive and productive and you're still insistent that everyone is implying Dawsburg is doing something wrong by posting that here. If that's the case, don't quote me in the post, because I'm not saying it's wrong to post it here. 

Yuri Kruman, your $5,000 project listed above, is another very clearly different example. I'll let you fill in the pieces for the rest.


----------



## JoeMitchell (Jun 6, 2010)




----------



## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Arkali said:


> Teaching math isn't entertainment. You can do it in an entertaining way, but no, they aren't the same.
> 
> Btw: If you want to get more traction on your project, you might talk more about the curriculum you're basing around it. If you take some time to do some research on how many kids have problems with geography and how your curriculum could overcome that, I suspect you'd get people interested on a more philanthropic level.


Concur. This would totally help. My wife is a teacher, and we bought a lot of self-published books at the Texas Book Festival this past autumn because of their educational value to children, even though they were mostly young adult and children's stories that weren't explicitly designed for that purpose.


----------



## Nick Fox (Oct 26, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> Please stop this. It is the same thing as when authors trash reviewers when they don't like their work, by saying they "don't get it". People are telling you they don't like the idea. They don't like you coming here asking writers to fund a fellow writer, when most here are struggling to do the same. Many think it's absurd to even ask for money. Others are telling you why hardback is completely pointless unless you're going for libraries (do you really think whether or not its paperback or hardcover will be the deciding factor for these places to review your book? I have a feeling the quality of writing on page 1 will be 1000% more important).
> 
> Yet when someone says something somewhat agreeable to you, we get an all caps SOMEONE GETS IT message. It's insulting. We all get what you're trying to do. You've spelled it out clearly. Some people here, myself included, simply think this is a bad idea. And frankly, getting tired of the age excuse as well. Young or old, this idea is flawed from the start. If your first two kindle books sold poorly, and in a sense, failed...why should people pay YOU to write another? Why is your story any more special than anyone else here? I know people here who are waking up at 4 in the morning to write before work, others who are sacrificing lunch breaks to crank out another 500 words. Others are sneaking in writing and promotion between babysitting, grandkids, or their own families. I don't see them asking for handouts..and that is what this is. It's a handout. It isn't some project that will better a community. This isn't a public garden, or clean drinking water, or funding for a new arts center. It is you getting paid to do what many here have sacrificed to do themselves. There is no guarantee of quality. There is no aiding of anyone but yourself.
> 
> ...


Finally, SOMEONE SAID IT. It needed to be said. Thank you!


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Okay, updated to include the curriculum and eBook rewards!


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

scarlet said:


> Get a paper route.


Both David Dalglish and I delivered newspapers while writing our first novels. I used to show up at 3am to fold the newspapers, and got home at 7:30 to start my day. Man, I don't miss that year.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

The problem, though, is that I live in a small town where job is a foreign term. For the few little jobs they DO have hiring, they usually take the adults. I'm not kidding--most of the workers at jobs that typically go to teens belong to adults. Tough times


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Dawsburg,

If you think fundraising will work for you,  I hope you get it to work.  But I don't think this is the place to ask for money, so I think you should just re-group and stop trying to justify it here.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

modwitch said:


> Well, first rule of good marketing is to create noise, so congratulations, you've done that in spades .
> 
> I'm really curious about this. One really important aspect of marketing is knowing your market. There are plenty of authors on this forum who write sci fi and fantasy that sell really well to teens as ebooks, and more who write only ebooks for a YA audience. In my opinion, as an elderly creaky old woman, teens live on the internet. You reach them... on the internet. Or in the library, but teens that hang out in libraries don't spent $16 on a hardcover, unless the universe has shifted even more than I think it has.
> 
> There is potential here, but I still don't see hardcover as the key. Find the schools who are adopting ereaders. Offer them your curriculum for free, and a modest price for the ebook. Have a great, interactive website with your old map illustrations.


Anymore a lot of teens don't use the Internet, they use Facebook. And they don't like it when people try to sell them something on Facebook.

A lot of the time kids' parents buy them books (not in my family, but in lots of them) and I can have paperbacks as well if needed (yes, I'm consenting to that).

I'm going to do the website thing--my brother designed my current one and we're working on a redesign and it will have the maps.


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## NoahMullette-Gillman (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm reasonably sure that Facebook is still online lol! Do you have an offline version? A _hardcover_ version of Facebook?

(JOKING!)


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## Nick Fox (Oct 26, 2010)

I find it a little odd that the OP realizes that people don't want to be bothered with this sort of thing via Facebook, yet he feels perfectly comfortable coming here and foisting it on all of us.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

modwitch said:


> Oh God, am I old enough FB has moved off the internets
> 
> Lots of authors are very successfully marketing ebooks to teens. I'd think that's an important puzzle for you to solve. It seems very strange to me that you need to go offline to market successfully to teens.


A lot of the books popular with teens are vampire romance books (or simply romance) right now--far, far out of my genre.

Nick: I've tried to say that I'm not trying to make you hand me $3k.


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## Free books for Kindle (Jan 8, 2010)

Perhaps I'm reading this all wrong, but it seems be similar to getting an advance to write/finish a book from a publisher. The main difference is that it's crowdsourced (and instead of rights, Dawsburg is offering copies etc).

While asking a bunch of (starving and struggling) authors to fund it understandably rankles, you can't blame a kid for trying. Especially when not everyone who reads this area of the forum is starving and/or an author.  

Heck, he's only 16 and has already worked out that asking peeps on the internet to fund a project beats working at McDonalds or a paper round and paying for it that way.  Basically the crowd will decide if the book is worth funding. If they like the idea, Dawsburg gets his cash. If they don't, it tells him that the offer wasn't compelling enough.  Either he does it anyway or it's back to square one to come up with a more compelling offer. 

If nothing else it's an interesting experiment and if you are 16 there's plenty of time to try out off the wall stuff like this.  Furthermore, people are more likely to forgive you/give you a helping hand. 

While I won't be investing myself, I can see why someone might. Providing he doesn't do something daft in the remainder of his youth, I would almost bet on Dawsburg making it big one day (and those early hard copies of his teenage books could be worth a fortune in a near all electronic book world).


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

NoahMullette-Gillman said:


> I'm reasonably sure that Facebook is still online lol! Do you have an offline version? A _hardcover_ version of Facebook?
> (JOKING!)


"Ooh, they have the Internet on computers now!"


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

LOL @ Daniel 

Dawson, if you live out in the country - ie. where there are lots of farms / ranches, that is a GREAT source for employment for employment for teenagers.  I know - I worked in a hayfield for several summers.  Another bonus, it's usually cash money.  It's worth checking into.  Oh - also, it'll build up lots of muscle, which is helpful when you're a geek


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Oh God, am I old enough FB has moved off the internets
> 
> Lots of authors are very successfully marketing ebooks to teens. I'd think that's an important puzzle for you to solve. It seems very strange to me that you need to go offline to market successfully to teens.


Teens live on their cellphones. Texting and tweeting has replaced email. Email is the next to last resort for contact for a lot of teens -- the only thing worse than having to email is having to make an actual phone call.

Dawson is 16. He's not exactly poised to ride a rocket to literary success at this age. He has an idea for a book that includes a cool-looking hardback because that fits the theme of his story. He may have dreams of big money (Eragon!), but I suspect he really just wants the money to print up his book and sell a few copies.

The idea that he needs a better business plan is certainly a point worthy of discussion, but his business plan needs to include finishing high school, and going to college might be a good idea for a writer too. While I am dubious about his project on Kickstarter and think he could have taken a more tactful approach on these boards, I admire him for his ambition to write a book at his age and his actually getting Kickstarter to approve his project. He has ideas and energy. When I was his age I was reading comic books and playing Dungeons and Dragons. So good for him.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

Free books for Kindle said:


> While asking a bunch of (starving and struggling) authors to fund it understandably rankles, you can't blame a kid for trying. Especially when not everyone who reads this area of the forum is starving and/or an author.


Actually, I can.



Free books for Kindle said:


> Heck, he's only 16 and has already worked out that asking peeps on the internet to fund a project beats working at McDonalds or a paper round and paying for it that way. Basically the crowd will decide if the book is worth funding. If they like the idea, Dawsburg gets his cash. If they don't, it tells him that the offer wasn't compelling enough. Either he does it anyway or it's back to square one to come up with a more compelling offer.


I must be from a different age. Asking strangers for money beats working? Better yet, asking the crowd which includes struggling writers in the same business as him is a good thing? There are places and organizations to go tor grants and subsidies for projects like this. A little research would have found them but that would have been work.



Free books for Kindle said:


> If nothing else it's an interesting experiment and if you are 16 there's plenty of time to try out off the wall stuff like this. Furthermore, people are more likely to forgive you/give you a helping hand.


Unless you continue asking after most people have turned you down or given you valid alternatives and advice.



Free books for Kindle said:


> While I won't be investing myself, I can see why someone might. Providing he doesn't do something daft in the remainder of his youth, I would almost bet on Dawsburg making it big one day (and those early hard copies of his teenage books could be worth a fortune in a near all electronic book world).


Something daft like working?


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Asher MacDonald said:


> Teens live on their cellphones. Texting and tweeting has replaced email. Email is the next to last resort for contact for a lot of teens -- the only thing worse than having to email is having to make an actual phone call.
> 
> Dawson is 16. He's not exactly poised to ride a rocket to literary success at this age. He has an idea for a book that includes a cool-looking hardback because that fits the theme of his story. He may have dreams of big money (Eragon!), but I suspect he really just wants the money to print up his book and sell a few copies.
> 
> The idea that he needs a better business plan is certainly a point worthy of discussion, but his business plan needs to include finishing high school, and going to college might be a good idea for a writer too. While I am dubious about his project on Kickstarter and think he could have taken a more tactful approach on these boards, I admire him for his ambition to write a book at his age and his actually getting Kickstarter to approve his project. He has ideas and energy. When I was his age I was reading comic books and playing Dungeons and Dragons. So good for him.


Asher,

It sounds really cheesy, but I'm working with my mom on a business plan. It's not like I haven't thought about these things. I _know_ the advice I have been given. I've published that way. (Granted I would definitely change my post on this board; I was expecting there would be few replies and they would be "good luck!" posts and it would sink to the bottom). The thing is, I want to try something different. If it desperately fails--think of it this way. Family Force 5. Big band with teens. When they were in THEIR early teens, they were called the Brothers. They sucked.

That's not because they weren't serious. But nobody remembers the Brothers except for them.

If this is successful, then it's a great launch point. If it's not, then it will be for learning. However I will do everything possible to try to make this book work.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

*For the LOVE OF GOD, let the boy print his book!! Good Lord!!*


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## JoeMitchell (Jun 6, 2010)

swolf said:


> *For the LOVE OF GOD, let the boy print his book!! Good Lord!!*


Wow! That's the funniest thing I've seen all month, and so appropriate! Thank you!!


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## Dawn McCullough White (Feb 24, 2010)

JoeMitchell said:


>


Oh yeah


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I had a longer post typed up earlier, but I deleted it.  

The facts are this: Dawsburg has a lot to learn, but he's not going to learn it sitting on his duff.  There is no reason he should not ask for money on kickstarter -- that's what the site is for.

The issue of contention here, really, is whether he should come here and ask US, and then be offended by the entirely predictable reaction.  Well, you know, he didn't know enough to predict the reaction.  And so he doesn't listen.... maybe he's not ready to listen yet.  Maybe he's got other lessons to learn first.

So my only message to Dawsburg at this point is something like what Scarlet said: don't defend, just do.  If you meet resistance in one place, learn what you can from it, and move on.  Make it all a learning experience -- and you don't learn by defending.

(And to those scoffing at his ability to find a job for this.... he said he lives in the midwest.  He's not kidding when he says there aren't jobs.  And things are about about to get a whole lot worse, because even though they extended unemployment benefits, that doesn't actually apply to those of us who live in the most depressed states.  We ran out of the extended benefits a LONG time ago and are not eligible.)

Camille


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

daringnovelist said:


> (And to those scoffing at his ability to find a job for this.... he said he lives in the midwest. He's not kidding when he says there aren't jobs. And things are about about to get a whole lot worse, because even though they extended unemployment benefits, that doesn't actually apply to those of us who live in the most depressed states. We ran out of the extended benefits a LONG time ago and are not eligible.)


I know its tough finding a job but there are a lot of other options available to people looking to raise money for noble endeavors. They all require a lot of work especially if you have no credentials to fall back on or proven success. It also requires patience. If Dawson is serious about his book and wants to do it to fit whatever vision he has in mind then there is no rush to do it today, tomorrow or even next year. Unless he has some kind of unfortunate accident, he has years ahead of him to do this during which he can earn the money needed.

The government, non-profit organizations and other groups are always giving out grants and subsidies for certain projects. Writing a book isn't one of them but they do commission studies all the time which later go into books and papers. Holding a fund raiser at your school or in your local community is another option. In all cases, the process isn't quick or easy. Kickstarter and other places like it are good places to seach for backing but not a forum.

I'll leave out my paranoid and cynical thoughts about giving money to people who promise you something in the future.


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> I had a longer post typed up earlier, but I deleted it.
> 
> The facts are this: Dawsburg has a lot to learn, but he's not going to learn it sitting on his duff. There is no reason he should not ask for money on kickstarter -- that's what the site is for.
> 
> ...


I think the issue of contention is whether or not his time/efforts would be better served focusing more closely on another aspect of the process, actually.


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## Nick Fox (Oct 26, 2010)

Matthew Stewart said:


> I think the issue of contention is whether or not his time/efforts would be better served focusing more closely on another aspect of the process, actually.


Well, we have different issues of contention then. 

I do think Camille's point is a good one, though. Regardless of what people think (myself included), Dawson is free to try his hand at Kickstarter, even though it's a safe bet he'll be disappointed. My main issue was the idea that his book counted as an "artistic project" worthy of funding, when any other writer here could make the exact same argument about his/her work. Coming to a community of writers with that was never going to turn out well, even in a community of people as kind as this one. But like Camille said, that's a lesson learned, and Dawson might move on and find a different group of people who would be more receptive to funding his project.


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

Nick Fox said:


> Well, we have different issues of contention then.
> 
> I do think Camille's point is a good one, though. Regardless of what people think (myself included), Dawson is free to try his hand at Kickstarter, even though it's a safe bet he'll be disappointed. My main issue was the idea that his book counted as an "artistic project" worthy of funding, when any other writer here could make the exact same argument about his/her work. Coming to a community of writers with that was never going to turn out well, even in a community of people as kind as this one. But like Camille said, that's a lesson learned, and Dawson might move on and find a different group of people who would be more receptive to funding his project.


I agree with what your saying, so maybe we just have several issues of contention.

I don't think there is much steam left in this debate. We'll see how he progresses with the fundraising. April is sooner than we think!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> I'm not marketing to adults who read thrillers, romance, or literary fiction. I'm marketing to kids like me: nerdy teens who read sci fi and fantasy. I can't reach them the way you reach your audience. Sure, lots of people would enjoy it, but it's hard to pitch to them because it's hard to sell nerdy teen sci fi and fantasy to adults who read thrillers, romance, and literary fiction.


OK, now you need to stop, take a breath, and look around. You're just proving you don't really know the majority of people on this board, my friend.

David Dagliesh: Half-Orc Saga. (Nerdy fantasy for all ages)

Daniel Aronsen: Flaming Dove, etc. (Nerdy fantasy for... all ages)

Amanda Hocking: My Blood Approves, etc. (Nerdy urban fantasy primarily aimed at YA market)

Myself: Ember (Nerdy paranormal suspense/comic bookish fantasy aimed at YA market and up)

I could go on and on and on and on and on... But I'll stop at four.

You want people to send you money, I get that. You want $3K upfront before a thing's published. Yeah, that'd be nice... how are your other books selling?

Amanda Hocking started nine months ago, worked her tail off, and is selling books in quantities that reach six figures now.

You have two other books. Market the heck out of 'em and raise $3K and more by yourself! Then invest it in whatever you want! 

We all face the same uphill struggle in reaching an audience, my friend. But it can be done, with great writing and a little sweat equity. The folks here who are doing well are working hard, not asking for handouts.

Be the young writer who does it on his own, by working hard.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> Diseases and general wellness? Where do you get that? It's about artistic projects. A book is an artistic project.
> 
> One of the most famous ones is Punk Mathematics. That's not in any of those categories. It's a math book plus punk rock. I'd call that entertainment.


Your youth and inexperience is showing.

Being naive and uninformed is one thing; not listing and becoming stubborn and ignoring sound advice? Well, those are behaviors unlikely to inspire potential investors, anyway.

Market the heck out of your books and you'll raise $3K and more in no time.

Amanda's audience, Dave Dagleish's audience, Dan Aronsen's audience are all exactly the same as yours... And Amanda sells better than any of us.

If that's not "your audience" you just don't have one.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> The problem, though, is that I live in a small town where job is a foreign term. For the few little jobs they DO have hiring, they usually take the adults. I'm not kidding--most of the workers at jobs that typically go to teens belong to adults. Tough times


You have two books out already.

Market them. Sell many copies. Raise money. Invest in yourself.

THAT's your job. It's the job each of us takes on when we self-publish.

What is not our job? Paying you to write more books that you won't spend time marketing hard enough to make your own money to invest in Book Four.

I grew up in a town of 350. I picked rock out of a field for a local farmer, and used the money to buy a Smith-Corona typewriter in the early 1980s.

Then I got a paper route and used that to keep myself in paper, ribbon, correction fluid, comic books and sunflower seeds.

I wrote a lot of stuff. Very little got published, I kept writing.

At no time did I go door to door saying, "Could you please give me some money? I'm writing a book."

No, I went door to door saying, "Ms. Smith, I'm here to collect for the month of April. That'll be $7.50. How have you been enjoying the Herald?"

I did that for ~75 subscribers for four years. I wrote on my own time.

You have it better. You have two novels out. Novels that apparently aren't selling, because you're pouring time that could be spent marketing them into trying to get others to pay you to write a third.

Just a bad concept all around.

I'll say it again... Amanda Hocking's 200K+ fans aren't "your market," you don't have an audience. She writes novels for the same target age group.

Hang out marketing yourself here long enough, you'd know things like that and not be putting your foot in your mouth with statements like, "My market isn't here."


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

swolf said:


> *For the LOVE OF GOD, let the boy print his book!! Good Lord!!*


What this picture REALLY needs? A "the two Davids" facelift!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Final Note:

Dawsburg, I have diagnosed your real problem. You're putting so much time and energy into this writing thing, but I know your secret...

You're living next to this gal:










Dawsburg, Joey Potter is your girl-next-door and you haven't made a move on her yet, man!

Forget this writing stuff and GET BUSY with her....

And forget about this gal...










Trust me, dude, she's just bad news. You gotta be all about Joey...

And while you may think that this is your biggest threat:










...trust me, Pacey's just the beginning.

If you don't move on this Joey chick, and I mean NOW... this guy's gonna end up with her...










...And believe me, dude, NO ONE wants to see that!

KISS THE GIRL, DAWSBURG! KISS HER, YOU FOOL!

Or you may end up like this guy:










Hint: He's not as happy as he looks... because he didn't KISS THE GIRL! 

Here's some mood music:

_There you see her
Sitting there across the way
She don't got a lot to say
But there's something about her
And you don't know why
But you're dying to try
You wanna kiss the girl

Yes, you want her
Look at her, you know you do
It's possible she wants you, too
There is one way to ask her
It don't take a word
Not a single word
Go on and kiss the girl

Sing with me now
Sha-la-la-la-la-la
My, oh, my
Look at the boy too shy
He ain't gonna kiss the girl
Sha-la-la-la-la-la
Ain't that sad
Ain't it shame, too bad
You gonna miss the girl

Now's your moment
Floating in a blue lagoon
Boy, you better do it soon
No time will be better
She don't say a word
And she won't say a word
Until you kiss the girl

Sha-la-la-la-la-la
Don't be scared
You got the mood prepared
Go on and kiss the girl
Sha-la-la-la-la-la
Don't stop now
Don't try to hide it how
You wanna kiss the girl
Sha-la-la-la-la-la
Float along
Listen to the song
The song say kiss the girl
Sha-la-la-la-la-la
Music play
Do what the music say
You wanna kiss the girl

You've got to kiss the girl
Why don't you kiss the girl
You gotta kiss the girl
Go on and kiss the girl_


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)




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## Rory Miller (Oct 21, 2010)

I just heard of kickstarter the other day. Theres a movie called "Gringos at the Gate" that chronicals the US-Mexico soccer rivalry and what it means to Mex-Americans torn by the rivalry and the recent surge of American success in this rivalry.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Printing via POD has almost no up front cost. If you use Createspace, you're talking $39 for the Pro plan and the cost of the proof copy, which is under $20 with shipping. You can get good editing and proofreading for a couple of hundred dollars (there are some VERY good folks right here on these boards that offer reasonable rates). Even if you factor in costs for cover art (which again you can get very inexpensive from some wonderfully talented folks here), reformatting for digital (which if you are remotely computer savvy you can do yourself), and administrative incidentals you don't come anywhere near that cost. And as far as publicity, unless you are planning to market direct to bookstores and libraries, I can't fathom spending $3,000 on an indie book for promotion.
> 
> And if you ARE targeting bookstores and libraries exclusively, $3,000 won't cover half your costs. You'll have legal expenses, warehousing expenses, shipping expenses...
> 
> I run a small press. I make a nice profit. The math in this case does not work if you are doing your business right.


I don't know how long his book is. Mine came in at 263K words. A .01 a word there's 2,630 dollars of editing, and that didn't include a proof read. (I will be hunting for a new editor for the next one.) When I looked for editors (before learning about KB) .01 a word was the lowest price I found.

So, maybe long books are bad business, but it does seem very feasible to come up with a 3k business plan.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Keryl,

Re-read the thread... young Dawsburg's brainstorm didn't exactly get an enthusiastic reception. Not a good idea, esp. if soliciting from other indies facing the exact same challenges as any other writer.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Good job on the movie.  That might actually help with the curriculum end of things, too.  There's good money to be made in curriculum, too, if you get with a company that will sell it.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2011)

KerylR said:


> I don't know how long his book is. Mine came in at 263K words. A .01 a word there's 2,630 dollars of editing, and that didn't include a proof read. (I will be hunting for a new editor for the next one.) When I looked for editors (before learning about KB) .01 a word was the lowest price I found.
> 
> So, maybe long books are bad business, but it does seem very feasible to come up with a 3k business plan.


You're looking in the wrong places. There are folks on this very forum who providing editing and proofreading for much less. My project coordinator Faith Carroll only charges a 1/2 word for line editing and proofreading. And there are other folks on this forum who also provide inexpensive services for fellow indies.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

KerylR said:


> Mine came in at 263K words. A .01 a word there's 2,630 dollars of editing, and that didn't include a proof read. (I will be hunting for a new editor for the next one.) When I looked for editors (before learning about KB) .01 a word was the lowest price I found.
> 
> So, maybe long books are bad business, but it does seem very feasible to come up with a 3k business plan.


Keryl,

What Julie said. Look around in here, there are much better prices to be found. Also, if your tome is that long, a good editor might be able to suggest a way to split it into two books, or a trilogy, thus breaking up the costs and giving you the added benefit of increased sales.

It's also possible that, at 263K words, it's just too long and with the help of a good editor, it could be trimmed considerably and make it an even better read in the end.

ASIDE:

Not to beat a horse that was thought to be long-dead, but there are a wealth of reasons why Dawsburg's idea didn't go over well here with a number of us.

1) Dawsburg has two other books already published, and has shown little interest in promoting them sufficiently to generate his own funds to finance this project for his third book. Because he'd rather receive $3K up front before he writes a single word.

2) He has ignored several solid alternative approaches suggested by more experienced writers on the board, such as "write the novel and ePub it first, then fund the hardcover and curriculum off the sales generated by that." At least then, he'd have three books out there to generate revenue to fund his hardcover/curriculum project. Advice along these lines has been completely ignored by him... because he'd rather receive $3K up front before he writes a single word.

3) He has not yet demonstrated - by producing even a sample chapter of his proposed novel, nor by his current track record with his two previous novels - that this third novel would be of sufficient literary quality that it would be WORTH producing a hardcover and curriculum to support it. (I mean, how many school districts are going to form a geography curriculum around a novel no one's read yet, by an author no one's head of yet, when there are many classics (Around the World in 80 Days by Jules Verne comes to mind) of sufficient literary merit that could accomplish the same goal and be guaranteed to be solid reads? No, he'd rather receive $3K up front before he writes a single word.

4) He has not demonstrated the intellectual maturity at his age (refusing to listen to advice and alternative plans speaks to both intellectual and emotional immaturity) to make this seem like a good path. Who knows how good a student he is? Does he excels sufficiently as both a writer and in geography to produce both a novel and a curriculum? But he's invested in his presuppositions and expends no effort an answer such reasonable questions. Because he'd rather receive $3K up front before he writes a single word.

5) There is no "proof of market" that there are school districts just waiting for a 14-15 year-old to provide a "geeky SF and fantasy" novel with a self-produced curriculum to support it, all by the same teenager with virtually no track record, beyond two novels already produced that he lacks the discipline to promote to self-fund his third novel. Instead, he insists he has "a business plan" for the third novel - an effort he apparently has no interest in expending on his first two novels - and asks potential investors to take a leap of faith that suddenly he's matured into this discipline promoter, as well as an expert novelist and someone more accomplished than a geography Ph.D. of producing a valid geography curriculum for students. Those are three incredible leaps of faith; had he demonstrated himself in even one of these areas, or two, perhaps the third would be easier to believe... but it's doubtful he's demonstrated any of this given that he already has to novels out that have failed to generate sufficient sales to fund his ambitions for the third. Because he's a one note guy: he'd rather receive $3K up front before he writes a single word.

6) He has demonstrated, on this thread, a naivete of marketing by misidentifying his market... claiming that "his audience" isn't to be found here because he writes "geeky SF and fantasy" ... a genre that describes more than a healthy portion of the writers on this board. He'd rather receive $3K up front before he writes a single word.

7) Falsely believes that publishing his novel in a fancy, leather-bound hardcover version conveys on it some sort of magical "now it's a better novel" quality by so doing. He's too focused on receiving $3K up front before he writes a single word.

 Has ignored advice from numerous participants on this board on the most basic and practical level: we'd ALL love to get $3K up front before writing a single word. But that's not how the indie author scene works! It's just not. No, first you prove yourself. You produce a work. You develop a track record of sales success. And if you're really diligent, you end up with sufficient income to fund the project yourself... not to mention that if Book Three does take off and become such a runaway hit... it'll be a MUCH easier sell to school districts when you make it available in that fancy leather hardcover and supporting curriculum. Because they'll know, at minimum, that Dawsburg is NOT Dawson Leery. (Another starry-eyed dreamer, but one who never asked Pacey, Joey or Jen for $3K up front before he wrote a single word.)

So... while this fund-raising project is appropriate for some... (and Dawsburg has repeatedly ignored feedback when confronted with the fact that his third novel is NOT in the same vein as other projects funded by this organization) ... it's not the way to go here. His is NOT a path most KB authors would recommend others go down.

'Nuff finally said?


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You're looking in the wrong places. There are folks on this very forum who providing editing and proofreading for much less. My project coordinator Faith Carroll only charges a 1/2 word for line editing and proofreading. And there are other folks on this forum who also provide inexpensive services for fellow indies.


Yeah, next project will come in at a much lower cost.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Keryl,
> 
> What Julie said. Look around in here, there are much better prices to be found. Also, if your tome is that long, a good editor might be able to suggest a way to split it into two books, or a trilogy, thus breaking up the costs and giving you the added benefit of increased sales.
> 
> It's also possible that, at 263K words, it's just too long and with the help of a good editor, it could be trimmed considerably and make it an even better read in the end.


Well, besides the fact that you have to pay for the editor for the whole long book to get recs to make it smaller...

It certainly possible (and likely) that it could be cut further. (I took close to 15% out for the final version, then added 5% stuff it really needed.) However, 5 Betas, 1 incompetent editor, and several post publication readers couldn't find a way to turn it into two or three books. But if you want a free copy to offer your .02 on, I'll be happy to send you one. PM me.


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## davidhburton (Mar 11, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


>


Dawson, regardless of whether you attain your goal with Kickstarter or not, I wish you all the best with your project and your writing endeavors. You have a lot of ambition for someone so young and I'm sure you will become a great success. Good luck!!


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> ...before he writes a single word.
> ...before he writes a single word.
> ...before he writes a single word.
> ...before he writes a single word.
> ...


Actually... I think this is unfair. I was one of the people who originally said I thought he was barking up the wrong tree, and I stand by that. However, where are you getting the idea that he hasn't even started writing the book? Did I miss something? If that is the case, then I might agree with some of your points, but I really don't think that's true at all.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2011)

Arkali said:


> Actually... I think this is unfair. I was one of the people who originally said I thought he was barking up the wrong tree, and I stand by that. However, where are you getting the idea that he hasn't even started writing the book? Did I miss something? If that is the case, then I might agree with some of your points, but I really don't think that's true at all.


I think he meant more along the lines of hasn't even demonstrated that he has started writing, nor has shown a writing sample.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think he meant more along the lines of hasn't even demonstrated that he has started writing, nor has shown a writing sample.


Right. I got that. And I could be wrong. It just seems like an unfair assumption to think that he hasn't even written a single word on Incognito. My assumption (yeah, yeah) is that he's at least got a manuscript. It just seems like Craig is assuming that all he has is an idea percolating in his brain.

ETA: Scanned through the thread (just Dawson's posts) and didn't see any specific mention. The closest I found was this: "No way would I use Lulu to print hardcover--my book is 110 pages more than the one that cost 17 bucks PLUS shipping and handling." That does imply a manuscript, at least.

For the record, I don't necessarily think this fund-raising plan is a good idea, but, I've said my piece. And I actually agree with several of Craig's points, I just think it was unfair to throw in there (every single point) that Dawson hasn't even made rudimentary notes on a napkin when that is not the case.

Second edits: Just to be thorough, I went back to kick-in-the-pants and the first chapter is actually posted, so...


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## NoahMullette-Gillman (Jul 29, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Keryl,
> 
> What Julie said. Look around in here, there are much better prices to be found. Also, if your tome is that long, a good editor might be able to suggest a way to split it into two books, or a trilogy, thus breaking up the costs and giving you the added benefit of increased sales.
> 
> ...


You know what? Most of that may be true, but calm down. I had plenty of foolish ideas when I was a teenager. Let the kid be.


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## Free books for Kindle (Jan 8, 2010)

NoahMullette-Gillman said:


> I had plenty of foolish ideas when I was a teenager.


+1 I also seem to remember not listening to adults older than me either. The video is pretty good though. Very nicely produced.

Dawsburg obviously committed a major gaff asking authors here to fund the project. If he'd popped up here pointing out a potential way of getting cash to fund parts of a novel's production and used his own project as an example, there would probably be quite a lot of interest. If he gets his $3K, I bet there'll be a hell of a lot more interest in his approach.

The idea of crowdfunding this kind of project isn't totally without merit. Starting to happen a lot in the indie film industry.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

If you watch the video I say that I wrote the first draft in 2009. The book's almost complete. You can even read the first chapter if you so desire.


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## davidhburton (Mar 11, 2010)

Free books for Kindle said:


> +1 I also seem to remember not listening to adults older than me either. The video is pretty good though. Very nicely produced.
> 
> Dawsburg obviously committed a major gaff asking authors here to fund the project. If he'd popped up here pointing out a potential way of getting cash to fund parts of a novel's production and used his own project as an example, there would probably be quite a lot of interest. If he gets his $3K, I bet there'll be a hell of a lot more interest in his approach.
> 
> The idea of crowdfunding this kind of project isn't totally without merit. Starting to happen a lot in the indie film industry.


+1


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

davidhburton said:


> +1


+500


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

Dawsburg said:


> If you watch the video I say that I wrote the first draft in 2009. The book's almost complete. You can even read the first chapter if you so desire.


Despite my better judgement, I am going to ask a silly question.

Why did you opt to post the video here? Are you looking for feedback on it, funding or do you have some other motive?


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

kyrin said:


> Dspite my better judgement, I am going to ask a silly question.
> 
> Why did you opt to post the video here? Are you looking for feedback on it, funding or do you have some other motive?


Not sure, I guess I just decided to put it up.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Arkali said:


> Right. I got that. And I could be wrong. It just seems like an unfair assumption to think that he hasn't even written a single word on Incognito. My assumption (yeah, yeah) is that he's at least got a manuscript. It just seems like Craig is assuming that all he has is an idea percolating in his brain.
> 
> ETA: Scanned through the thread (just Dawson's posts) and didn't see any specific mention. The closest I found was this: "No way would I use Lulu to print hardcover--my book is 110 pages more than the one that cost 17 bucks PLUS shipping and handling." That does imply a manuscript, at least.
> 
> ...


Arkali and Julie,

It's a fair point to say that I engaged in overkill on the phrase "but he'd rather receive $3K up front before he writes a single word." Normally, I'd refrain, except that in Dawsberg's case, he's proven to have a tin ear to any and all words of caution or correction... from several sources. Yet it was overkill and probably diminished the effectiveness of the points being made.

That being said, Julie was correct, it was based on Dawsburg not demonstrating any signs of effort and I tend not to assume... either way.

So, happily, I see Dawsberg has revealed (which I don't believe he had previously) that he has a sample chapter available and the book is almost written.

That's WONDERFUL, Dawsburg, seriously. Good work on forging ahead.

That being said, I do think you'd be well-advised to plan based NOT on the what-if of raising $3K ahead of time, but on releasing this third book as an eBook first, then marketing the devil out of it AND your other two books, and raising the funds for this additional application/project yourself.

Why?

Because despite the overkill I engaged in in making my point, these are some of the challenges you will be facing. You will face school boards questioning your credentials for writing a curriculum compared to folks who actually do hold Ph.D.s in geography. You will face people saying, "Why use this book when we can use Jules Verne's Around the World in 80 Days.

And believe it or not? Many of them will be far more abrupt and skeptical than me.

That being said, my young friend... I'm going to download your sample chapter and I sincerely hope to be blown away!


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2011)

Free books for Kindle said:


> +1 I also seem to remember not listening to adults older than me either.


And it is that inability to accept advice from experienced adults that he will have to OVERCOME if he expects school boards to listen to him or adults to invest in the project. "Because I want it" or "Because I think it's a good idea" hold no weight whatsoever in business negotiations. Particularly at a time of massive education budget cuts. School boards are loathe to spend money on _professionally vetted_ books right now, let alone a self-published title by a teenager.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Arkali and Julie,
> 
> It's a fair point to say that I engaged in overkill on the phrase "but he'd rather receive $3K up front before he writes a single word." Normally, I'd refrain, except that in Dawsberg's case, he's proven to have a tin ear to any and all words of caution or correction... from several sources. Yet it was overkill and probably diminished the effectiveness of the points being made.


Actually, my main beef was just that I felt it was unfair to say "before he writes a single word". I actually agree with your points, for the most part. Just in the interest fairness, he's got a manuscript. Not that it really changes your points 

And Julie, what you said.

I know that at the age of 16 there's a tendency to think anyone over the age of 18 is a moron, or they just don't get what you're doing, because... you know, we're old fogies. But trust me, the smartest thing you can do is pay attention to people who've done it before and try to learn from their experience. Not that you'll listen to that, either, because hell, what do I know?


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## s0nicfreak (Jun 10, 2010)

Dawsburg said:


> My problem has been in marketing, simply because I have not been going to the places where my audience lives. I'm not marketing to adults who read thrillers, romance, or literary fiction. I'm marketing to kids like me: nerdy teens who read sci fi and fantasy. I can't reach them the way you reach your audience. Sure, lots of people would enjoy it, but it's hard to pitch to them because it's hard to sell nerdy teen sci fi and fantasy to adults who read thrillers, romance, and literary fiction.


I did not read the entire thread, so sorry if someone has mentioned these things or you have said you don't want to do these things, but I have a few additional ideas to raise money. Whether it is your money or donated money, $3000 is way too much to invest if you aren't completely sure the book will make you at least that much back, so I would say you need to make at least that much from books _before_ you consider investing that much. 

Say on the front page of your site that you're trying to raise money for hardcovers and why.
In your description of your other books talk about what you're trying to do and say that proceeds from the books go towards this. 
I would recommend releasing an ebook of the book you're trying to get funding for asap, but it is understandable if you don't want to. If you do, find a Kindle case that feels like an old hardcover, sign up for Amazon associates, and using that link to the case on your site, saying that this helps with the feel of the book when reading the ebook but again for the full effect one must read the hardcover. 
*Go to some anime conventions* - there's several in the midwest, the people that go definitely fit in to your teen or adult but like teen stuff sci-fi/fantasy fan demographic, and convention goers are going to be some of the rare teen scifi/fantasy fans that actually have money - and hand out cards that show a picture of or from your book, briefly talk about what you're going to do, and have your site URL. If you can manage to make the money from ebooks to do this, get a table at anime conventions and "sell" stickers or something else cheap (maybe put the book on smashwords and give codes to download the book?) in exchange for donations toward the hardcovers. Take it from a fellow nerd, nerds _love_ to support their fellow nerds. To be honest if you talk about what you are doing on some anime convention forums you might be able to find volunteers to make and hand out cards or stickers in exchange for a hardcover once you raise the money.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

The project seems to be picking up pace; I've been getting at least one new backer every day for about five days.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Hello everyone! It's been quite a ride since I first posted this topic way back in January.

The first project was unsuccessful--and it wasn't very much of a surprise to me because it had never had much momentum. The goal was too ambitious and the killer for me was that it took a lot of grassroots marketing and because the timeframe was too dang long.

So on April 13th, the day after the project was unsuccessful, I decided to restart it with a much shorter timeframe and a goal of just $1000.

Today, with three days before the end, I have made it--$1,019 as of a few minutes ago.

Check it out.

So I have both a story of failure and success.

Dawson


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Dawsburg said:


> Hello everyone! It's been quite a ride since I first posted this topic way back in January.
> 
> The first project was unsuccessful--and it wasn't very much of a surprise to me because it had never had much momentum. The goal was too ambitious and the killer for me was that it took a lot of grassroots marketing and because the timeframe was too dang long.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a success to me...


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm glad to see some success stories concerning fund raising for authors with Kickstarter.com. I had posted a brainstorm about Kickstarter.com a month or so ago, but didn't get much of a response from other writers here. Looking through this thread, I think I see why .


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

rexjameson said:


> I'm glad to see some success stories concerning fund raising for authors with Kickstarter.com. I had posted a brainstorm about Kickstarter.com a month or so ago, but didn't get much of a response from other writers here. Looking through this thread, I think I see why .


Kickstarter has immeasurable value, and lots of authors are afraid to take advantage of it. This bothers me. I want others to have the level of success that I've had.

I'm excited for the book, though. It's gonna be a great deal of fun. 

Dawson


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Kickstarter's great. I had an established fan base already (and truthfully hadn't heard of Kickstarter) so I did it myself in 2009 for the current novel. I'll be doing it again in a couple months for book two.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Good luck with the book, Dawson.

Vicki


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

Dawsburg said:


> Kickstarter has immeasurable value, and lots of authors are afraid to take advantage of it. This bothers me. I want others to have the level of success that I've had.
> 
> I'm excited for the book, though. It's gonna be a great deal of fun.
> 
> Dawson


It wasn't a matter of fear. It was a matter of professionalism. No one said Kickstarter was a bad idea. They questioned if it was right and professional to attempt to gain funds from your fellow writers who may or may not be struggling to produce their own books. It was a concept that you had trouble grasping then and now.

People mentioned that your aims were too high. They gave reasons why your original concept might meet resistance here and elsewhere. You got a lot of good advice and didn't seem to heed any of it. It wasn't because people were afraid, it was because they were trying to help you. Lo and behold, they were right. You missed you didn't make your original goal. In the end, you had to lower your expectations which a lot of people recommended.

I'm glad you were successful in your fund raising efforts but success at gaining funds for your concept does not equate with putting out a successful book. In any case, good luck with your book.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

kyrin said:


> It wasn't a matter of fear. It was a matter of professionalism. No one said Kickstarter was a bad idea. They questioned if it was right and professional to attempt to gain funds from your fellow writers who may or may not be struggling to produce their own books. It was a concept that you had trouble grasping then and now.
> 
> People mentioned that your aims were too high. They gave reasons why your original concept might meet resistance here and elsewhere. You got a lot of good advice and didn't seem to heed any of it. It wasn't because people were afraid, it was because they were trying to help you. Lo and behold, they were right. You missed you didn't make your original goal. In the end, you had to lower your expectations which a lot of people recommended.
> 
> I'm glad you were successful in your fund raising efforts but success at gaining funds for your concept does not equate with putting out a successful book. In any case, good luck with your book.


I must say that I was extremely humbled by the first project. Even as I was defending myself on this thread, sweating with the deep dark knowledge: "The goal is too big."

So yes, I am eating my words, stubborn as I am. (but really, the second project got its initial momentum from the original backers "transferring" their pledges. It's allowed.)

I'm ready to get to work now. And I'm very excited; the reality hasn't quite set in yet.

Dawson


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