# Let's talk Audio books



## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

How many of you are taking your books to audio?  Over the last few months I've gotten most of mine done via ACX.  Mostly because I got a request from a paramedic who was blinded on the job (I write a series about a self suicidal paramedic). I've run into a few snags with narrators flaking out on two of the projects and am having to start over.  I'm using the royalty split method so there is no cost to produce them. Also the audio of a scene or two makes great promo pieces. You split the profits 50/50 with the narrator.  Still when it is all said and done I'm glad I did it.  In the first month I've sold 31 audio copies of book #1.

Anyone else doing this?  If so how is it working out for you?


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Hi, I'm just embarking on this now. I've had a few auditions and am going through them this week. I've been thinking about it for a long time, but with KU offering audio too, I thought I'd get off my hands and give it a shot.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

4 done, and 4 in production at the moment. Before now, I tentatively decided NOT to do my Devan Chronicles series as it doesn't sell as well as I feel it needs to (if I want the audio to take off) but now I am rethinking. I might add another 4 to production, meaning ALL of my books will be in audio.

My sci-fi has done so well it paid all its up front costs in 90 days and I am hearing the same story all over the place in different genres. Audio is going to be huge, it already is getting there right now for me. Because I am a Brit I missed the early years of kindle 2007-2011. I am determined that I AM NOT missing out on the early years of the audio boom.

The next boom is, of course, German and Spanish translations. They scare me though. I don't know any native speakers who could rewrite my books into those languages and have my utter trust--by that I mean, someone who can read my work and choose the right words and dialogue to keep the feel of my work as I would want it to feel. (not just be technically correct).


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## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

DaCosta said:


> Hi, I'm just embarking on this now. I've had a few auditions and am going through them this week. I've been thinking about it for a long time, but with KU offering audio too, I thought I'd get off my hands and give it a shot.


Huh, I hadn't heard KU was doing this. Happy accident.


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## CristinaRayne (Apr 17, 2014)

Trying, but so far after a month, no auditions have been submitted. Maybe the title is just not suited for audio or I'm just unlucky...who knows?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

CristinaRayne said:


> Trying, but so far after a month, no auditions have been submitted. Maybe the title is just not suited for audio or I'm just unlucky...who knows?


From what I have learned, limited to my own narrations and auditions, there is no such thing as "not suited" for audio. There are just more profitable and less profitable. I don't know the title or the price range you offer, but I suspect you are offering royalty share on a title the narrators feel are too low in sales rank (ebook) for them to make a profit quickly enough. I am only guessing, but I bet if you offer to pay up front you will get auditions by the bucket load.


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## CristinaRayne (Apr 17, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> From what I have learned, limited to my own narrations and auditions, there is no such thing as "not suited" for audio. There are just more profitable and less profitable. I don't know the title or the price range you offer, but I suspect you are offering royalty share on a title the narrators feel are too low in sales rank (ebook) for them to make a profit quickly enough. I am only guessing, but I bet if you offer to pay up front you will get auditions by the bucket load.


I'm offering either upfront or royalty share & the ebook is ranked well, so like I said, who knows?


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## JavierCabrera (Jul 21, 2014)

So how much an audiobook goes for? I read somewhere in this forum the upfront cost can go up to $2,000, but anyone has a real example? Because if we talk about numbers in general basis, anything can go up to $2k.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

CristinaRayne said:


> I'm offering either upfront or royalty share & the ebook is ranked well, so like I said, who knows?


Okay then... that is REALLY puzzling. It sounds like you're doing all the right things. I could ask my narrator to take a look at your proposal if you like. Maybe he will have an insight or some feedback? PM me the link if that interests you.


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## Nancy Warren (May 5, 2014)

I am just planning to embark on Audio myself. I am Canadian and still not eligible for ACX so I am going to do it through the kind offices of Joe Nobody and his company. 

I think it's great to have more options available for readers/listeners.

I'm struggling with which book to put into Audio first and I'd love some feedback. My best selling project of all time is a short story called The Christmas Grandma Ran Away from Home. I was thinking of putting that up first because it's short, so would hopefully be easier.

But then, it's only a short story and I have no idea if anyone buys short stories in audio.

My other option is to start with my romance series, or my mystery series. And again, I can't decide. The mystery series has sold better, but I have a feeling romance readers are a bigger audio market.

Any thoughts?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JavierCabrera said:


> So how much an audiobook goes for? I read somewhere in this forum the upfront cost can go up to $2,000, but anyone has a real example? Because if we talk about numbers in general basis, anything can go up to $2k.


4 sci-fi books (mine) all between 100k and 140k words = $18k up front BUT you can pay less or more depending upon the rate you offer and end up agreeing to. $225 pfh is the guild rate that lets narrators use the guild system for their medical and retirement stuff (learned that this week on SPP) but I knew before that offering 200-400 was the sweet spot for me. I din't know why back then, but I'm guessing THAT was part of why. 

You really can pay anything up to $1000 pfh or as little as $100pfh


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

JavierCabrera said:


> So how much an audiobook goes for? I read somewhere in this forum the upfront cost can go up to $2,000, but anyone has a real example? Because if we talk about numbers in general basis, anything can go up to $2k.


You have options...from cheapest upfront to not so cheap

Royalty Share - this means you go exclusive to ACX, and you take 20% of the profit, and the narrator takes 20%. This is for a 7 years, with auto-renewing 1 year terms after that. If you can go this route it cost you $0 up front which makes it very attractive to authors, not so much to narrators. The risk is mainly on the narrator in this case.

Hybrid deal - Some authors have worked out deals where they pay SOME up front, and do 3-year (or whatever) limited term on royalty share. This reduces the upfront the author has to cough up, and spreads the risk out a bit more evenly

All upfront - Typically for a professional narrator you are talking $200-$400 per finished hour. My shortest book is 87k words and that is about 10 finished hours which put the up front cost at $2000-$4000 dollars. This puts all the risk on the author.

Of course if you have a good silent room, a good mic, and a good reading voice you could always do it yourself, but most authors do not have that. Most of us are far better off paying a professional to do it right.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

There even more option. You could go to a publisher of audio like Tantor or Brilliance. You could go to a narrator, pay up front, BUT NOT go exclusive to ACX with the files and therefore distribute not only to Audible and iTunes through ACX, but also to websites selling your book on CD etc. There are tons of options, but most use ACX because its an easy way to deal with the money side of things. (a bit like KDP) 

Unlike KDP you don't have control of pricing and for us that is very disconcerting because we are so used to having the ability to run discount promos. Not having that power pretty much means that audio sells itself or it doesn't sell at all. Visibility of the eBook associated with the audio is your only leverage. I "think" my permafree book one was a big audio sales generator and is why I did so well the first four months. I could be wrong. I was running FB ads like crazy too back then and they seemed to work. Stopped now though. The ROI reversed itself after four months I found.


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## jamielakenovels (Jan 14, 2014)

I've been waiting for someone to want to audition for forever so since it seems like no one's interested, I'm just going to hire someone to do it, or do it myself on my own dime.  But I'm curious to try at least one title and see if there's interest.


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## starkllr (Mar 21, 2013)

CristinaRayne said:


> Trying, but so far after a month, no auditions have been submitted. Maybe the title is just not suited for audio or I'm just unlucky...who knows?


I had the same thing happen, so I went actively searching on ACX for narrators I liked instead of waiting for one to find me (I did Royalty Share), and I found 5-10 that I liked based on their samples. I contacted all of them. They didn't all respond back to me, but 3 of them did, and one of them ended up being a perfect fit and she did my first three novels.


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## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

jamielakenovels said:


> I've been waiting for someone to want to audition for forever so since it seems like no one's interested, I'm just going to hire someone to do it, or do it myself on my own dime. But I'm curious to try at least one title and see if there's interest.


That happened to me for about a month as well. So I started making offers to narrators I liked. The ones that followed through were very professional and gave me good product. So out of nine books seven went off without a hitch, two flaked out and I'm having to start over with one currently in production, and one I'm willing to wait for because she is awesome and she had 4 others lined up ahead of me.


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## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

JavierCabrera said:


> So how much an audiobook goes for? I read somewhere in this forum the upfront cost can go up to $2,000, but anyone has a real example? Because if we talk about numbers in general basis, anything can go up to $2k.


It can if you pay by the hour, then all of the royalties are yours, but if you do a split it doesn't cost you anything. I've found a lot of really good narrators who work this way. Especially if you have a lot of good reviews on Amazon.


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## jamielakenovels (Jan 14, 2014)

Kindlemojodotcom_Tom said:


> That happened to me for about a month as well. So I started making offers to narrators I liked. the ones that followed through were very professional and gave me good product. So out of nine books seven went off without a hitch, two flaked out and I'm having to start over with one currently in production.


Fantastic! Can you recommend some non-flakey narrators I might approach?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

jamielakenovels said:


> Fantastic! Can you recommend some non-flakey narrators I might approach?


I've only used one. I chose him after I had a half dozen auditions and liked his voice and professionalism. His name is Mikael Naramore.

https://www.acx.com/narrator?p=APXS7C6LJ4HOJ


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## jamielakenovels (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks, Mark.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

starkllr said:


> I had the same thing happen, so I went actively searching on ACX for narrators I liked instead of waiting for one to find me (I did Royalty Share), and I found 5-10 that I liked based on their samples. I contacted all of them. They didn't all respond back to me, but 3 of them did, and one of them ended up being a perfect fit and she did my first three novels.


Same here. I had to contact them, listening to their samples, picking the ones I thought had the right sound, and sending them the link to the book. Some say yes, some say no.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

I went hunting for the narrators by searching genre, gender etc and approaching those I liked. Don't wait for them to come to you.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I have three in audio and am proofing the fourth now. I pay top dollar, but it's WELL worth it. I'm sure I wouldn't be selling nearly as much with a lesser narrator. I listened to hundreds of audiobooks in my pre-writer days, and I know for sure that the narrator matters. Almost more than the story! There are people who could read the phone book and I'd still listen. So--get the very, very best narrator you can.

I did get a bunch of auditions. I had a couple avid readers of my stuff, as well as my beta readers, help me pick the best one. And I'll just add here that my narrator had never narrated an audiobook before. (She's a Hollywood actress.) She blew all the others out of the water, though, including a couple of Audie-nominated narrators and some ladies who read for best-selling romance authors. Just no comparison. So despite the cost, despite her inexperience, despite the slowness (some narrators can do a book in 2 weeks--the first ones took her 2-3 months each, though she's done the 4th one in a month), I was right, because that gal sells books. I've had two books in the Top 15 on Audible in Contemp Romance, and that's just remarkable. A few days ago, I had three in the top 100. That's on her. 

As to how long it takes to pay off--6 weeks to 4 months, for the two I've had out there (because it can be well over $4,000/book--90-115K books). ACX dashboard is down for maintenance, so I can't see how the new one's doing, but I think it'll pay off on the quicker side. I do believe there's a big advantage in having more books out, think I'll start doing better now that I have 3 books. That's a bonus of my narrator's slowness--I have time for a book to pay off before I have to shell out for the next one! 

BUT--I didn't do audio until I was already selling well, until I could afford the upfront cost. I'm not so sure it's a great investment until you start doing all right, having some visibility. You can't promote audio separately in any really productive way, from what I've seen. You can promote your books in general and some of that will spill over to audio, and if you're selling very well, Audible will do their own promo--and that's the gold mine. But that doesn't happen until you're already hitting very good numbers.

Oh, and genre--audio isn't like Kindle books. Romance does NOT dominate. "Men's genres" tend to do better. Thriller, sci-fi, mystery, nonfiction. Some male writers report selling nearly as many audiobooks as Kindle books. For me, there's no comparison at all. Max units I've sold on an audiobook is still only about 25% of the Kindle numbers for that month. (And for paperbacks, by the way--laughable.) For a better idea, you could look at the bestseller list on Audible, see what genres do well.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

I can add some anecdotal evidence to the men's genres selling well. My husband will read - at a push - half a book a year. Magazines are his limit. But, he'll happily 'digest' audiobooks like there's no tomorrow.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Can I ask those of you who've already produced audiobooks what 'back matter' etc you include? Copyright info, newsletter sign-up, web address? What can I expect the narrate to read out, if anything in addition to the manuscript?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

DaCosta said:


> Can I ask those of you who've already produced audiobooks what 'back matter' etc you include? Copyright info, newsletter sign-up, web address? What can I expect the narrate to read out, if anything in addition to the manuscript?


I don't have any of that in there. Just "This has been 'My book,' by Rosalind James. Read by Claire Bocking. Copyright 2014, by Rosalind James." That's the standard. I've never heard anything else in an audiobook.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Me too - no links


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Just a note to Rosalind. You got me all curious talking about your narrator. I am someone that is struggling to get into audio books. Meaning I have a hard time concentrating on listening. I have eye issues so I am trying to get my brain to get used to them more for the times when I can't read words. 

I found some narrators that I like, others I just can't even. I think it is incredibly important to get the right narrator. A book can be ruined if its off. 

So checking yours out I totally love your narrator Rosalind. And one of the things I love is the speed at what its read. Some of the narrators are so sloooooooooooow. I think that is why some of them have not worked for me. They put me to sleep. I found yours to be spunky and lively, just right for a contempo romance. And the accents sounds real to me, not fake. If you know what I mean. I liked it so much just on that clip I'll be doing a immersion read on the first in your series.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Atunah said:


> Just a note to Rosalind. You got me all curious talking about your narrator. I am someone that is struggling to get into audio books. Meaning I have a hard time concentrating on listening. I have eye issues so I am trying to get my brain to get used to them more for the times when I can't read words.
> 
> I found some narrators that I like, others I just can't even. I think it is incredibly important to get the right narrator. A book can be ruined if its off.
> 
> So checking yours out I totally love your narrator Rosalind. And one of the things I love is the speed at what its read. Some of the narrators are so sloooooooooooow. I think that is why some of them have not worked for me. They put me to sleep. I found yours to be spunky and lively, just right for a contempo romance. And the accents sounds real to me, not fake. If you know what I mean. I liked it so much just on that clip I'll be doing a immersion read on the first in your series.


Awesome! And a note: the narrator who did Susan Elizabeth Phillips' books up until the latest three or so, Anna Fields, was one of the best ever. Tragically, she was killed a few years ago. But check her out.

And I know what you mean about speed. Claire whips right along. 

Sorry to hear about your eyes.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

No links, but I have heard a few audio books that I bought with a website url at the end. Something like "Copyright 2014 by xyz publishing. For more books by this author, visit xyz.com"

I should have done something like that with mine... its too late now.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> 4 sci-fi books (mine) all between 100k and 140k words = $18k up front BUT you can pay less or more depending upon the rate you offer and end up agreeing to. $225 pfh is the guild rate that lets narrators use the guild system for their medical and retirement stuff (learned that this week on SPP) but I knew before that offering 200-400 was the sweet spot for me. I din't know why back then, but I'm guessing THAT was part of why.


Curious about this Mark, because in the US, voice talent are SAG-AFTRA members, and there is no pre-negotaited audiobook rate. It's separately negotiated with each publisher, and they note that there are about two dozen union audiobook contracts out there.

http://www.sagaftra.org/audiobooks

The closest fixed rate sheet is the older sound recording rate sheet here:

http://www.sagaftra.org/files/sag/documents/soundrecordings_ataglance_2014.pdf

Note that the narrator rate is $192 per hour, not including any editing time. That's just the studio time. Which is why the old rate sheet didn't work for publishers. Do you know if ACX has a pre-negotiated rate? I would be interested to know that.

There are over 4,600 books offered for production on ACX, and only about 20 that are offering a cash rate of $200 or more per finished hour, and aren't 'dead' projects (have been on the site for several months). At $200 per finished hour, that still is only working out to about $40 per labor hour, which is not a lot for a person trying to make a living, so I think it's very fair.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

DaCosta said:


> Hi, I'm just embarking on this now. I've had a few auditions and am going through them this week. I've been thinking about it for a long time, but with KU offering audio too, I thought I'd get off my hands and give it a shot.


There are no ACX titles associated with KU. (I should say, no ACX titles were moved across in the initial pull into KU). Audible is already a membership program anyway, and most sales are membership sales, not retail sales, and are discounted. So - don't get fooled by the retail price and the royalty percentage number, becasue the revenue you will make is based on the discount rate they apply based on member sales (and how member sales did that month). The membership sales "price" recently has been working out to about half the retail price. You still get retail sales, and retail sales via iTunes, but most sales (for me anyway) are member sales.


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## CristinaRayne (Apr 17, 2014)

starkllr said:


> I had the same thing happen, so I went actively searching on ACX for narrators I liked instead of waiting for one to find me (I did Royalty Share), and I found 5-10 that I liked based on their samples. I contacted all of them. They didn't all respond back to me, but 3 of them did, and one of them ended up being a perfect fit and she did my first three novels.


I did this as well, but so far no one has responded.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

The dashboard at ACX is under some sort of work and might be messing up messaging. Even if that isn't a problem, keep contacting people. They are out there. I've had good responses from people, and found most were kind, even if saying no.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

555aaa said:


> Curious about this Mark, because in the US, voice talent are SAG-AFTRA members, and there is no pre-negotaited audiobook rate. It's separately negotiated with each publisher, and they note that there are about two dozen union audiobook contracts out there.
> 
> http://www.sagaftra.org/audiobooks
> 
> ...


I don't know about pre-negotiated. I think its more of a recommended rate, but like I said I only heard this from this weeks SPP. They had an ACX and audio related podcast. It was really good.


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## starkllr (Mar 21, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> I don't have any of that in there. Just "This has been 'My book,' by Rosalind James. Read by Claire Bocking. Copyright 2014, by Rosalind James." That's the standard. I've never heard anything else in an audiobook.


Me, neither. The question did come up just the other day in a FB group for ACX Narrators. Someone was wondering, if the author included a sample chapter of the next book at the end of the book, should that be included in the narration? I think the general consensus was to probably include it, but I'm not sure what I think one way or the other about it.


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## starkllr (Mar 21, 2013)

jamielakenovels said:


> Fantastic! Can you recommend some non-flakey narrators I might approach?


I'm very happy with the woman I'm working with now. Her name is Pam Daugherty. But she's booked for my next book, and I know she's got a busy schedule in general. Still, she's definitely worth checking out.

I had an amazing audition from a woman named Melissa Redmond on ACX. but unfortunately, she doesn't do straight Royalty Share (if your book qualifies for the stipend program on ACX, she'll consider it), and I couldn't afford her.

Also check out Dallas Maupin. She and I kept missing each other on the timing, but I think I would have been happy to have her do my books based on her auditions.

You should be able to find all three of them on ACX in a quick search.

The woman who did my first three books, Heather Jane Hogan, had to stop taking narration jobs at the end of last year, but it'd be worth a look to see if she's returned to taking jobs, because she was fantastic with my books. Hope that helps a bit.


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## Renata F. Barcelos (Jun 28, 2012)

Would absolutely love to have my books on audible. I devour audiobooks daily, and it pains me not to have them in audio, but since I'm not in the US,, ACX can't be used...

Has anyone tried to go to Tantor or Brilliance? How does it works?


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## rachelmedhurst (Jun 25, 2014)

I've just put mine up to be auditioned for. Will see if I get anything, if not by the weekend, will go hunting for a British narrator.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

starkllr said:


> Me, neither. The question did come up just the other day in a FB group for ACX Narrators. Someone was wondering, if the author included a sample chapter of the next book at the end of the book, should that be included in the narration? I think the general consensus was to probably include it, but I'm not sure what I think one way or the other about it.


I don't put my sample chapter of the next book in the audio version, although it's in all my Kindle books. I've listened to hundreds of audiobooks, as I've said, have never heard a sample chapter in one of them, so that's why I didn't do it.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> I don't put my sample chapter of the next book in the audio version, although it's in all my Kindle books. I've listened to hundreds of audiobooks, as I've said, have never heard a sample chapter in one of them, so that's why I didn't do it.


I would think you would need to be really sure you would have the same narrator for the next book if you did?


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## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> I would think you would need to be really sure you would have the same narrator for the next book if you did?


I'm not sure that matters. I use the sample chapters as promos on my website and my you tube channel.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Since the author doesn't set the price on an audiobook and pricing is by length, I think there could be a negative perception of getting "ripped off" that you get to Chapter 40, think there's more to go, and then Chapter 41 is a sample chapter of the next book. Just my sense.


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## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> Since the author doesn't set the price on an audiobook and pricing is by length, I think there could be a negative perception of getting "ripped off" that you get to Chapter 40, think there's more to go, and then Chapter 41 is a sample chapter of the next book. Just my sense.


I've been using them for over a year, but my novels are pretty short, so the prices are a little cheaper.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Renata F. Barcelos said:


> Would absolutely love to have my books on audible. I devour audiobooks daily, and it pains me not to have them in audio, but since I'm not in the US,, ACX can't be used...
> 
> Has anyone tried to go to Tantor or Brilliance? How does it works?


ACX is open to the UK and US. If you live somewhere else you could PM Joe Nobody and ask if he is still accepting new people. Joe helped me with my first book before ACX came over here.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> Since the author doesn't set the price on an audiobook and pricing is by length, I think there could be a negative perception of getting "ripped off" that you get to Chapter 40, think there's more to go, and then Chapter 41 is a sample chapter of the next book. Just my sense.


This is because audio is sold differently. The longer the book, the higher the price. A chapter can be 50mb or more and that can easily be an extra 20 minutes of audio, so hosting and DL fees come into it as well. I would guess, and it is only a guess, that listeners might bitch if they pay extra for a sample chapter they don't like or want.


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## Renata F. Barcelos (Jun 28, 2012)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> ACX is open to the UK and US. If you live somewhere else you could PM Joe Nobody and ask if he is still accepting new people. Joe helped me with my first book before ACX came over here.


Wow, that's great advice, thanks! Will PM him right now.


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## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

Renata F. Barcelos said:


> Wow, that's great advice, thanks! Will PM him right now.


I have also heard that you can set up a dedicated USA proxy (they are very cheep like $2.00/mo) and get an Amazon.com (US) account and do business that way. I've given authors a kindlemojo.com email to use for this, but haven't heard back from any of them as of yet.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Kindlemojodotcom_Tom said:


> I have also heard that you can set up a dedicated USA proxy (they are very cheep like $2.00/mo) and get an Amazon.com (US) account and do business that way. I've given authors a kindlemojo.com email to use for this, but haven't heard back from any of them as of yet.


Yes, this is so. You have to choose the correct state though. I think Simon Whistler of the Rocking Self Publishing Podcast did this before ACX arrived in the UK.


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

Just started with ACX. Uploaded a sample, waited a week or so and got one audition in. I think he's as new to all of this as I am, so we are taking our time and both learning. Just got the first 15 minutes approved a couple of weeks ago.

It's such a weird experience hearing my characters brought to life by somebody else.


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## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

DebBennett said:


> Just started with ACX. Uploaded a sample, waited a week or so and got one audition in. I think he's as new to all of this as I am, so we are taking our time and both learning. Just got the first 15 minutes approved a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> It's such a weird experience hearing my characters brought to life by somebody else.


Yeah, but it's pretty cool though. It's amazing how some of them preform your work. A lot of the narrators are real craftspeople.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Kindlemojodotcom_Tom said:


> Yeah, but it's pretty cool though. It's amazing how some of them preform your work. A lot of the narrators are real craftspeople.


They really are. I have been working with Mikael Naramore on my books. He's done 5 now and they are really well done if I do say so myself, and I do! I have the retail samples set up on my website: http://www.impulsebooks.co.uk if you want to hear them.

What I wanted to say is that when you deal with audio, try to let the narrator do his thing without too much interference unless there is something obviously amiss. By this I don't mean let them mess it up or give you poor quality, but if there's something like SFX or music, or something that you're not sure about, ask the narrator's advice and give his opinion more weight than your own. BECAUSE, like cover designers, they tend to know their medium better than we do.

I have some books that I want in audio and I want Mikael to do them, but I asked his opinion about using a female narrator as well. So they would alternate. He would do male pov, she would do female. I asked for his opinion and recommendations because I am used to listening to books that use one narrator for male AND female and like that. My books so far are that way, but I felt it might be nice to do something different. It's things like that you need professional advice on I think, and I trust his judgement.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> What I wanted to say is that when you deal with audio, try to let the narrator do his thing without too much interference unless there is something obviously amiss. By this I don't mean let them mess it up or give you poor quality, but if there's something like SFX or music, or something that you're not sure about, ask the narrator's advice and give his opinion more weight than your own. BECAUSE, like cover designers, they tend to know their medium better than we do.


Yeah, I agree. When I hire a pro do do a job, it does not matter if its a book cover or a install an HVAC system - I hire them because they are experts and have skills and knowledge I do not. If I can not trust them, I should not hire them.

No one is perfect, obviously, but I would err towards trusting the expert I hired to do the job.


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## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

DebBennett said:


> Just started with ACX. Uploaded a sample, waited a week or so and got one audition in. I think he's as new to all of this as I am, so we are taking our time and both learning. Just got the first 15 minutes approved a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> It's such a weird experience hearing my characters brought to life by somebody else.


Were you happy with it?


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm seriously considering putting some of my titles on audio.

1. Have any of you narrated your own books, and if so, how did that turn out?
2. Given that you have your own narration recorded, is there a way to bypass aggregators such as ACX and upload the book to KDP yourself?


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## BlairErotica (Mar 1, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> I'm seriously considering putting some of my titles on audio.
> 
> 1. Have any of you narrated your own books, and if so, how did that turn out?
> 2. Given that you have your own narration recorded, is there a way to bypass aggregators such as ACX and upload the book to KDP yourself?


You can certainly find places to sell mp3s of a book you've done, but for my money that is a lot of work I don't want to get into. I LIKE aggregators. I can't afford a personal assistant, and they are the next best thing until I can.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

BlairErotica said:


> You can certainly find places to sell mp3s of a book you've done, but for my money that is a lot of work I don't want to get into. I LIKE aggregators. I can't afford a personal assistant, and they are the next best thing until I can.


I appreciate that, but that isn't my question. Given that I do not wish to share royalties, is there a way to upload to Amazon like we can with e-books in KDP?


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

this is slightly off topic, but does anyone know how the cut breaks down between the production studio and the narrator if the narrator does the recording at home? i'm trying to figure this out because my son and i are working on getting a production company off the ground and we want to use some narrators who have their own recording equipment but don't live in our area.  I've heard the break is 50/50, but i'm guessing that's for in-studio recording. 

also, i have one book in ACX, a suspense, and it took about 6 months to break even.  BUT sales really slow down after 6 months. so say the book earned 4K in the first 6 months...it might only earn $500.00 the next 6 months. that's been my experience anyway. i'm close to hitting the one-year mark, and it will be interesting to see if it makes much of anything in year 2.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Anne Frasier/Theresa Weir said:


> this is slightly off topic, but does anyone know how the cut breaks down between the production studio and the narrator if the narrator does the recording at home? i'm trying to figure this out because my son and i are working on getting a production company off the ground and we want to use some narrators who have their own recording equipment but don't live in our area. I've heard the break is 50/50, but i'm guessing that's for in-studio recording.
> 
> also, i have one book in ACX, a suspense, and it took about 6 months to break even. BUT sales really slow down after 6 months. so say the book earned 4K in the first 6 months...it might only earn $500.00 the next 6 months. that's been my experience anyway. i'm close to hitting the one-year mark, and it will be interesting to see if it makes much of anything in year 2.


It doesn't matter if you use a production company that has its own building and multi-million dollar studio, or a narrator doing your book in his spare room set up as a DIY studio. The split is the same. When you pay up front you get 40% and ACX gets the rest. When you do royalty split, you get 25%, the narrator gets 25% and ACX gets 50%

My first four books took less than 90 days to earn out, but that is measured from when the first book was released. They were released staggered from end of feb to mid april. At the end of May I had my money back. Sales seemed to have slowed now, and are running at about 1/3 of their best but maybe that's the summer slump thing? Not sure but kindle sales for me are also down.

ACX doesn't know or care if your narrator has millions in studio equipment. All it cares about is that the files meet its minimum quality standards. Obviously it matters to us, the authors, but only from a listener's pov. Simon Whistler is a great narrator. He also does the Rocking Self Publishing Podcast and he has mentioned many times that his "studio" is basically a sound-proofed cupboard with compute equipment ad professional microphone and mixer etc. As long as sound quality is high, there is no need for anything else really.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

my post probably wasn't clear. not unusual for me.  i'm not talking about how ACX cuts the pie. i'm talking about the arrangement production companies typically have with their narrators. what percentage of the up-front fee does the narrator get. this doesn't have to be ACX that we're talking about. so say the production company makes $3,000.00 recording a book. what percentage does the production company pay the narrator if the narrator records her own material? i'm just trying to figure out what is fair to pay my narrator. i'm not even sure i'll be using ACX. i'm guessing that narrators who record in the studio get less from the production company since the production company isn't involved in the actual recording.

just my guess:

narrator records in studio: 50/50 cut.  in the 3K scenario, each makes $1,500.00. 

narrator records at home and sends file to production studio: 60/40 cut(just a guess), with the narrator getting 60%  or should the narrator get more?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Anne Frasier/Theresa Weir said:


> my post probably wasn't clear. not unusual for me.  i'm not talking about how ACX cuts the pie. i'm talking about the arrangement production companies typically have with their narrators. what percentage of the up-front fee does the narrator get. this doesn't have to be ACX that we're talking about. so say the production company makes $3,000.00 recording a book. what percentage does the production company pay the narrator if the narrator records her own material? i'm just trying to figure out what is fair to pay my narrator. i'm not even sure i'll be using ACX. i'm guessing that narrators who record in the studio get less from the production company since the production company isn't involved in the actual recording.
> 
> just my guess:
> 
> ...


Well you see, a lot of the so-called production companies on ACX are just indie narrators like we are indie authors. They have LLC for tax purposes just as I have my imprint/company set up. So when you pay for example, 300pfh to a production company that is the narrator's money. HUGE EDIT HERE: I said that ACX takes 30% from narrators because of a discussion via PM where I was told this (a narrator had pushed this idea to an author friend as a fact to get more money) Later in this thread another narrator blew this idea out of the water as WRONG. ACX take nothing from narrators.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> They really are. I have been working with Mikael Naramore on my books. He's done 5 now and they are really well done if I do say so myself, and I do! I have the retail samples set up on my website: http://www.impulsebooks.co.uk if you want to hear them.
> 
> What I wanted to say is that when you deal with audio, try to let the narrator do his thing without too much interference unless there is something obviously amiss. By this I don't mean let them mess it up or give you poor quality, but if there's something like SFX or music, or something that you're not sure about, ask the narrator's advice and give his opinion more weight than your own. BECAUSE, like cover designers, they tend to know their medium better than we do.
> 
> I have some books that I want in audio and I want Mikael to do them, but I asked his opinion about using a female narrator as well. So they would alternate. He would do male pov, she would do female. I asked for his opinion and recommendations because I am used to listening to books that use one narrator for male AND female and like that. My books so far are that way, but I felt it might be nice to do something different. It's things like that you need professional advice on I think, and I trust his judgement.


I just heard the sample of Hard Duty, he's a wonderful narrator! Good job.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Well you see, a lot of the so-called production companies on ACX are just indie narrators like we are indie authors. They have LLC for tax purposes just as I have my imprint/company set up. So when you pay for example, 300pfh to a production company that is the narrator's money. ACX takes 30%. So pay $3000 to a production company/narrator, he gets $2000 and ACX get's $1000 for brokering the deal. That's how I "think" it works.


so ACX also takes a cut of the initial production cost? ack. i guess that kinda makes sense, but i didn't realize it. it would be a little like paying to upload books to KDP on top of the 30% KDP takes from sales.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Well you see, a lot of the so-called production companies on ACX are just indie narrators like we are indie authors. They have LLC for tax purposes just as I have my imprint/company set up. So when you pay for example, 300pfh to a production company that is the narrator's money. ACX takes 30%. So pay $3000 to a production company/narrator, he gets $2000 and ACX get's $1000 for brokering the deal. That's how I "think" it works.


i had to double check that, and it looks to me like ACX doesn't take a cut of the production cost.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Anne Frasier/Theresa Weir said:


> i had to double check that, and it looks to me like ACX doesn't take a cut of the production cost.


I thought they took a commission (I think) for being listed on ACX? I am happy to be proven wrong though. That's good news from narrator's pov.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Another advantage to narrating my own book--besides the royalty issue--is that I found typos that my betas, my editor, and I missed. And that was in the initial out-loud read-through to re-acquaint myself with the narrative and find spots that might be troublesome when spoken.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2014)

> this means you go exclusive to ACX, and you take 20% of the profit, and the narrator takes 20%. This is for a 7 years, with auto-renewing 1 year terms after that.


A towering rip-off for the rights holder. Nobody ever signs a seven-year exclusive for all back-end revenues. Shameful.

No reason at all to sell audiobooks through ACX with that kind of crap deal being offered.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> I'm seriously considering putting some of my titles on audio.
> 
> 1. Have any of you narrated your own books, and if so, how did that turn out?
> 2. Given that you have your own narration recorded, is there a way to bypass aggregators such as ACX and upload the book to KDP yourself?


1. Yes. I won't do that again.

2. KDP is only for books. You can get into the Amazon mp3 store by using a different aggregator that distributes music. Your audiobook is treated as spoken word. But - you can't set the price. cdbaby is an example of an aggregator that will upload you to both iTunes and Amazon's mp3 store. You cannot get into Audible that way, and people don't buy audiobooks off of the Amazon mp3 store to my knowledge. Audible, like Kindle, is its own little closed-in proprietary world. The mp3 store, by contrast, is open and there is no copy protection.

{edited 8/13} My colleagues at cdbaby have informed me that Audible has an exclusive contract with iTunes and Amazon for audiobook distribution and that both companies have been removing audiobooks out of their mp3 and music stores (respectively).


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

abdanna said:


> A towering rip-off for the rights holder. Nobody ever signs a seven-year exclusive for all back-end revenues. Shameful.
> 
> No reason at all to sell audiobooks through ACX with that kind of crap deal being offered.


It's worse than that, because about 2/3 of sales (my numbers) are via member credits, and those are about 50% off the list price (there is an adjustable formula that changes monthly - also my numbers from last month). So - if you have a $10 retail list audiobook, on the 40% exclusive deal, and you get a 50/50% split with the narrator, you actually only get 10% of the retail list for 2/3 of the sales ($1 in this case).


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

555aaa said:


> 1. Yes. I won't do that again. [Narrating one's own book.]


Did something go wrong. Was it too much work? Why won't you do it again?


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2014)

> So - if you have a $10 retail list audiobook, on the 40% exclusive deal, and you get a 50/50% split with the narrator, you actually only get 10% of the retail list for 2/3 of the sales ($1 in this case).


So not only do you give away a seven year exclusive and 80% of the money, you lose control over pricing?

Disgusting. Wouldn't take this deal if it came with a free house.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> Did something go wrong. Was it too much work? Why won't you do it again?


I just don't have "the voice." It is also a pain to make a recording space both quiet enough and dead enough.

So now I have people. You can check out our latest project rough cuts on the Soundcloud link on my signature.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

abdanna said:


> So not only do you give away a seven year exclusive and 80% of the money, you lose control over pricing?
> 
> Disgusting. Wouldn't take this deal if it came with a free house.


You don't have to take that deal - you can just pay the narrator up front and earn a 40% royalty.

Up to you.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Dwallock said:


> Real quick side note--- I just ordered a microphone and a pop screen sound filter. I will be recording my short stories into audio versions


I'm curious about the DIY option. Don't you need more equipment, including an interface, recording/editing software, headphones, cables, etc? What equipment are you using, and how did you select it?

Also, if anyone else here has suggestions on equipment, I would like to hear it.


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## Loosecannon (May 9, 2013)

1) Yay, the ACX dashboard just went back up..!!
2) For self-recording tips and info check out this info at ACX's site:
http://www.acx.com/help/authors-as-narrators/200626860
http://www.acx.com/help/video-lessons-resources/200672590

3 key things you need: A quiet space, i.e. an interior room away from leaf blowers, car/airplane/loud neighbor noises, a good microphone (The Blue Yeti is a good choice ~$80-99), a quiet PC + recording software like Audacity for PC or Garage Band for Mac. Then you'll need to be able to edit out bad spots/add silence where needed and export to the required ACX specifications for final MP3s. Do your homework it's pretty technical stuff - but not impossible for an 'average' person that is dedicated.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2014)

> You don't have to take that deal - you can just pay the narrator up front and earn a 40% royalty.
> 
> Up to you.


Could sell the book on my own site and keep all the money. Could pay the narrator better too. Don't have to sign away the rights for seven years either.

You're right. It is up to me. It's my book.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Mike McIntyre said:


> I'm curious about the DIY option. Don't you need more equipment, including an interface, recording/editing software, headphones, cables, etc? What equipment are you using, and how did you select it?
> 
> Also, if anyone else here has suggestions on equipment, I would like to hear it.


The Rode NT-1 is the lowest noise condenser mic out there. It's about $250 and it is quieter than the Neumann U87 which is the gold standard pro mic (at about $3500). I have that and a couple AKG condenser mics, a Presonus AudioBox 24 bit 2 channel USB A/D box (that I don't like), and a dbx 266 compressor that I pretty much just use as a limiter or don't use at all. I edit in Sony SoundForge, which is perfectly adequate, and for multi-track I use Cubase Artist 7 because I am too cheap to buy ProTools. You won't need multi-track for a normal audiobook which is just 1 track of mono. You only need SoundForge or something similar. I haven't used Audacity recently except the old Linux version that ran on the KDE desktop. I advise against USB mics because you computer needs to be too close (because USB cables can't be more than a few feet long) and so it can be too noisy. All our studio recordings are done on the U87 or AKG 414 and I will say they sound great.

I also forgot about the headphones. You need them, and you want the closed-ear kind (the kind DJs use so you can't hear anything outside). You really need to edit with headphones and most people need to record with them.

But I still don't recommend doing it except for fun.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

abdanna said:


> Could sell the book on my own site and keep all the money. Could pay the narrator better too. Don't have to sign away the rights for seven years either.
> 
> You're right. It is up to me. It's my book.


Exactly. This is the same decision we all have to make with Select, plain KDP, and all the other channels. In the end you have to decide where your best interests are. Do I sell 10 copies a month from my own website and keep all the money (If I could sell 10) or do I sell 400 a month at audible for 50% of the money (last month's numbers) It just comes down to volume in the end. You need traffic on a par with Amazon/Audible, and it has to be buying public looking for stuff like yours. That's it.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2014)

> This is the same decision we all have to make with Select, plain KDP, and all the other channels.


Not quite. With ACX you also have to sign a *seven year exclusive*. Further, you have to do it for free and cover all the costs of production yourself. There isn't a cent of up-front money. That is a complete rip-off for the rights holder. On top of that, you have to give up 60% of the retail price and you don't control that price either. That's a rip-off-coated rip-off.



> Do I sell 10 copies a month from my own website and keep all the money (If I could sell 10) or do I sell 400 a month at audible for 50% of the money (last month's numbers)


Is Audible going to guarantee those numbers? Or is it more likely my audiobook gets shoved in the back room with the "top men" after I've signed a seven year exclusive for nothing?

Since Audible will do nothing to promote my audiobook, I will have to do all the marketing myself, and if I'm going to do all the marketing myself, I'm going to keep that traffic on my site, thank you very much.

My strategy is no different than those of you who have mailing lists. You want control over your customer relationships. I'm just taking the next step.



> It just comes down to volume in the end. You need traffic on a par with Amazon/Audible, and it has to be buying public looking for stuff like yours.


How much traffic does Amazon/Audible send to my book pages? Oh, we don't know that either, do we? Hmmm.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm having trouble finding information on the ACX site. Could be just me.

If I provide the audio according to their specs and opt for a non-exclusive, upfront fee payment, what are the out-of-pocket fees? Obiously there'd be none for a narrator. What else does ACX charge for and how much? It's probably dependent on number and length of audio files. A link to that information is all I need.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

abdanna said:


> Not quite. With ACX you also have to sign a *seven year exclusive*. Further, you have to do it for free and cover all the costs of production yourself. There isn't a cent of up-front money. That is a complete rip-off for the rights holder. On top of that, you have to give up 60% of the retail price and you don't control that price either. That's a rip-off-coated rip-off.


You don't have to take a 7 year exclusive deal at Audible. There is the lower royalty option. That's all I meant. Same as with Select. Take exclusive or don't. With Audible, yes you pay for the production of your audio, and its a LOT. Mine cost me a fortune, but luckily I recouped the cost. I was willing to chance it, others may not be. With Kindle, you also pay for production of the ebook (writing it for months, editing, cover, formatting). Even if you do it all yourself you should put a value on your time and effort. Not sure what I would say my hourly rate is though.

I wish we did have power over the price at Audible. If we did, I could easily see the rise of a bookbub catering to Audible, and I might sell a [crap]-ton of audiobooks... sigh I can dream!



> How much traffic does Amazon/Audible send to my book pages? Oh, we don't know that either, do we? Hmmm.


You are very confrontational. Did I do something to offend?


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2014)

> You are very confrontational. Did I do something to offend?


Of course not. At the same time I'm not going to declare an offer holy and blessed just because it comes from a big company(tm). The royalty rate is meaningless if you have no control over pricing. Ultimately all you're doing is making Audible bigger and more attractive and getting nothing in return except part of part of some price you don't even control.

It's a bad deal. With the exclusive, it's a disaster.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

For those who may be confused, as audio can be a bit confusing: You can do royalty share, with which you don't pay upfront, but you split any proceeds 50/50 with the narrator (so you each get 20% of royalties, which are 40% of the amount the audiobook SELLS FOR (which is not its list price)). The disadvantage of this method is that you probably won't get the very top narrators--they are unlikely to want to do a royalty share unless you are a bestselling author, in which case you'll probably want to pay upfront! Sort of a Catch-22. 

Or you can pay upfront, non-exclusive. You can distribute everywhere, but you take a lower percentage of royalties. (I'm not sure how much.) I don't think many people choose this option, as in reality, Audible and iTunes have the lion's share of the audiobook market, and you aren't that likely to sell many on your own or with others anyway. But if you think the audiobook market may change significantly in 7 years, and it certainly may, and you don't want to be locked in, this can be a good option.

Or, thirdly, you can choose to pay upfront, and go exclusive with Audible (which also includes iTunes). For this, under the current terms, you get 40% of sales price.

Alternatively, if you sell very well, you can wait to see if one of the audio outlets (Brilliance, Tantor, or one of the smaller ones), or ACX itself, contacts you. Upside of this: they pay the upfront cost, possibly an advance against future royalties as well, and you don't have the time and hassle (and it IS time and hassle) of managing the project yourself--selecting a narrator, proofing the audiobook, etc. Downside: (except with ACX) you have no control. The narrator is hugely important to audiobook sales, and you won't get to choose. That would be a big downside, to me. Also, except for ACX, those other outlets don't seem to have a whole lot of marketing clout in audio either, so it doesn't seem to me that you gain much in terms of visibility from their funding the project. 

Oh, to add, because it's come up: If you write fiction, I don't think the DIY option is very feasible, unless you're an actor. A fiction narrator isn't just a reader--he/she is an actor. It's a skill set. 

That's my analysis of the options. Everybody has to choose for themselves, as with everything in this game. Risks any way you slice it, just your own assessment of what the best risk/reward option is for you.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

abdanna said:


> Of course not. At the same time I'm not going to declare an offer holy and blessed just because it comes from a big company(tm). The royalty rate is meaningless if you have no control over pricing. Ultimately all you're doing is making Audible bigger and more attractive and getting nothing in return except part of part of some price you don't even control.
> 
> It's a bad deal. With the exclusive, it's a disaster.


Those of us that are making serious money with ACX are highly entertained by your posts. Feel free to go ahead and take 100% of the sale from your website. We paupers will just need to squeeze by on the 40 and previously 50% contracts some of us still hold.


abdanna said:


> Of course not. At the same time I'm not going to declare an offer holy and blessed just because it comes from a big company(tm). The royalty rate is meaningless if you have no control over pricing. Ultimately all you're doing is making Audible bigger and more attractive and getting nothing in return except part of part of some price you don't even control.
> 
> It's a bad deal. With the exclusive, it's a disaster.


No it's not - anyway - tell us about your current audio experience.

We at KBoards are always hungry for information - especially when it's going to boost our income. Where can I see your audio titles?


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> Or you can pay upfront, non-exclusive.


Other than for a narrator and recording fees, how much do you pay under this agreement?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> Other than for a narrator and recording fees, how much do you pay under this agreement?


Same as for exclusive--whatever the narrator charges. More experienced narrators seem to be in the $200-400 pfh range--that's where you'll get more auditions. I've always paid in the $300-400 pfh range, because that's what the narrators I was interested in charge.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> Same as for exclusive--whatever the narrator charges. More experienced narrators seem to be in the $200-400 pfh range--that's where you'll get more auditions. I've always paid in the $300-400 pfh range, because that's what the narrators I was interested in charge.


I'm not paying a narrator. I'm the narrator. So, what are the up-front costs I would pay to ACX in this situation?


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## Not Here Anymore (May 16, 2012)

I'm new to audiobooks, too. Just posted my first title on ACX last weekend. (Insert hope/panic here!) A few questions for the veterans: 

How did you decide on your narrator? Interpretation of the characters/pace/ability to do accents? 

What feedback have you gotten from listeners? In general do listeners want a straight narrative or do they want the story read with animation?

And did you hit the "dislike" button for any of your auditions? I just can't bring myself to do that. Am I too tender-hearted? What happens if you hit the dislike button? Does the audition disappear? Is it a sorting tool?


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Sara Rosett said:


> I'm new to audiobooks, too. Just posted my first title on ACX last weekend. (Insert hope/panic here!) A few questions for the veterans:
> 
> How did you decide on your narrator? Interpretation of the characters/pace/ability to do accents?
> 
> ...


My first narrator was recommended by a friend - no auditions. My second narrator came from 10-15 auditions and I picked the one that was closest to the audiobook narrators in that genre market. My third narrator came from 25 auditions and it came down to accents & her ability to vocalize the distinctive cast of characters.

As for the like/dislike/maybe - I'm pretty sure that's an internal producer-only sorting feature that the narrators can't see. Someone back me up...otherwise I'm going to feel slightly bad. I use that thing mercilessly.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> I'm not paying a narrator. I'm the narrator. So, what are the up-front costs I would pay to ACX in this situation?


Sorry, I don't know. I don't think there are any. You upload the files in the format required by ACX, and they put the book up. As far as I know, that's it.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> I'm not paying a narrator. I'm the narrator. So, what are the up-front costs I would pay to ACX in this situation?


Al, it doesn't cost anything. I've done two books this way. There is no ACX setup fee. You just claim your book, say you are the producer, select either exclusive or non-exclusive, upload your files, wait, wait, wait for them to get reviewed, and then sit back and watch the money roll in. It's actually pretty straightforward.

If you want to go ahead, go for it - but my suggestion is to first post a sample to SoundCloud, link back here, and hopefully we can give you helpful and not snarky feedback. SoundCloud has free accounts and it has lots of handy widgets for linking from your website, and also a "buy now" widget.


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## Not Here Anymore (May 16, 2012)

Wansit said:


> As for the like/dislike/maybe - I'm pretty sure that's an internal producer-only sorting feature that the narrators can't see. Someone back me up...otherwise I'm going to feel slightly bad. I use that thing mercilessly.


I hope it works like that--otherwise it reminds me too much of 1-star reviews!


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

555aaa said:


> Curious about this Mark, because in the US, voice talent are SAG-AFTRA members, and there is no pre-negotaited audiobook rate. It's separately negotiated with each publisher, and they note that there are about two dozen union audiobook contracts out there.


I can speak to this, being a SAG-AFTRA narrator. The union negotiated a rate of $225 pfh with Audible for ACX books.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Anne Frasier/Theresa Weir said:


> so ACX also takes a cut of the initial production cost? ack. i guess that kinda makes sense, but i didn't realize it. it would be a little like paying to upload books to KDP on top of the 30% KDP takes from sales.


What? No, this is totally not true. ACX does not take ANY portion of the pay-for-production budget.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

JeffreyKafer said:


> I can speak to this, being a SAG-AFTRA narrator. The union negotiated a rate of $225 pfh with Audible for ACX books.


What about when ACX goes around that union-negotiated rate and offers a flat $1,800 for 90,000 words? Can SAG-AFTRA narrators still apply?

-----------

Welcome to the Audible Studios/Voice 2014 Audiobook Casting Call, featuring Pivot Points: Five Decisions Every Successful Leader Must Make. The narrator selected from this audition will receive a contract to narrate this audiobook for Audible Studios worth approximately $1,800. This audiobook contract is open to female actors who are legal residents of the 50 United States and the District of Columbia who are the older of 18 years old or the age of majority in the state in which they reside at the time of entry or the United Kingdom who are aged 18 or older at the time of entry and are a registered attendees of Voice 2014

https://www.acx.com/titleview/A2BJJOBGPKGCKK


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2014)

Kindlemojodotcom_Tom said:


> How many of you are taking your books to audio? Over the last few months I've gotten most of mine done via ACX. Mostly because I got a request from a paramedic who was blinded on the job (I write a series about a self suicidal paramedic). I've run into a few snags with narrators flaking out on two of the projects and am having to start over. I'm using the royalty split method so there is no cost to produce them. Also the audio of a scene or two makes great promo pieces. You split the profits 50/50 with the narrator. Still when it is all said and done I'm glad I did it. In the first month I've sold 31 audio copies of book #1.
> 
> Anyone else doing this? If so how is it working out for you?


I believe everything happens for a reason.

This morning, I was PMing Mark Cooper, over at another forum, about another matter, and he mentioned audiobooks. I told him that I wasn't interested right now, but definitely later.

Then this afternoon, I was lurking at KBoards, and I came across this thread. This thread has been here for awhile, but in the past I ignored it, because in the past I wasn't interested in audiobooks.

I went to ACX, filled out my information, searched for narrators with the voice I want for my books, listened to their voice and the way they read, sent my first choice a message, and she got back to me about two hours later.  (I didn't expect that, especially since I'm going with the 50/50 plan.)

Thank you for this thread, especially Tom for starting it and for answering my questions in the PM I sent you, and Mark for making me think about audiobooks in the first place.

I'm way having too much fun with this indie life.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2014)

> Feel free to go ahead and take 100% of the sale from your website.


Thank you, I will. I also get the names of my customers, I get to send them a newsletter, I can pay my narrator better and I can promote all of my other books and products without having ten thousand competing products advertised all over my book pages if Audible actually ever sends me any traffic. I also have total control over the price, I can offer coupons, giveaways and sales any time I feel like it. 

Works out better for everyone. If Audible decides to offer us a deal that isn't the business equivalent of being chased across a frozen lake by wolves, we'll reconsider.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Wansit said:


> What about when ACX goes around that union-negotiated rate and offers a flat $1,800 for 90,000 words? Can SAG-AFTRA narrators still apply?


Yes, but it just won't count toward their health and pension. In the case of Audible Studios productions (NOT ACX), there is a union agreed upon lesser rate for less experienced narrators. Again, this does not apply to ACX.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

abdanna said:


> Thank you, I will. I also get the names of my customers, I get to send them a newsletter, I can pay my narrator better and I can promote all of my other books and products without having ten thousand competing products advertised all over my book pages if Audible actually ever sends me any traffic.


This is all well and good if you have any traffic. I've sold audiobooks on my own website before and I can assure you that it's such a miserable experience from a technical standpoint that you will probably cave after 6 months.

1) iPods use a different format than MP3 players. You'll spend hours simply creating the different versions and testing them. You'll need to offer both versions to your customers. And make sure you test on multiple browsers on multiple operating systems.
2) most shopping carts don't handle digital downloads that well. You'll want to pay someone to customize it to your needs. This is especially true if the book is longer than 8 hours because not all iPods are created equal. Some will require you to break the file into 2 or more parts and your cart needs to know how to handle that. 
3) audiobooks are big friggin files. A simple download link doesn't work, because if it's not served correctly, it will timeout for the customers.
4) oh and you'll get people on their tablets and such wanting to download the book. Doesn't always work. Especially on iPads, which seem to require all syncing be done through iTunes.
5) you get to collect and report sales tax. That's always fun.
6) finally, when you run into all kinds of unforeseen problems, you get to be customer support. Talking on the phone with people and troubleshooting why they can't get your audiobook that they paid for is soooo much fun.

All because you want 100% of the profits. It is absolutely not worth it.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

abdanna said:


> Of course not.


Okay good... so moving on a little. I started the audio road from a position of having none at all, and deciding that a piece of something was better than a piece of nothing because I really had no idea how well, or even IF, my books would sell as audio editions. I DO agree about price. I HATE that about Audible because promotions are impossible.

I am so spoiled with the ease of pricing elsewhere.

In various surveys and questions from Amazon, I always bring this up about Audible, and although I doubt they will ever give us pricing control, they might be able to develop a system of coupons or maybe something like countdown that Select uses? I have no clue, but they need something to encourage us to promote audio more. At the moment the only way to promote the audio is to push hard on my permafrees and hope there is spillover into audio. I have seen some evidence this IS the case, and whenever I have a BB on the kindle I get a few extra audio sales, but it isnt a big number because the audience at BB is obviously looking for the ebook. We need a BB dedicated to audio, but without price control or a way to offer discounts it would be pointless.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Al Stevens said:


> I'm not paying a narrator. I'm the narrator. So, what are the up-front costs I would pay to ACX in this situation?


As far as i know after 5 books done, there are none. ACX take more than enough from you over time by selling your stuff. If you go exclusive for the 7 years you are getting 40% (i'm on 50% atm) of the sales price (not the retail price) and on a $25 book like mine that means I get $7.04 per book (going on past numbers) That means acx/audible get the rest (60%) They seem happy with that  I say going on past numbers because let's say all my books were suddenly whisper synced (i wouldn't let it happen, but lets pretend) that $7.04 could suddenly become $1.04


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JeffreyKafer said:


> What? No, this is totally not true. ACX does not take ANY portion of the pay-for-production budget.


This bogus info was my fault, Jeff. I was told this in a PM by an author friend who was being pressured by a narrator to help "defer" the 30% that ACX "steals" out of a narrator's pocket as their commission for listing on the site! It turned out to be a case of confusion over taxing. So no harm no foul.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

sibelhodge said:


> I have a quick question re the copyright announcement on the audiobook. Do you add it in yourself, something like: "Book Title by Sibel Hodge. Read by Blah Blah. Copyright 2014, by Sibel Hodge." Or does the narrator automatically add that bit in?
> 
> Thanks so much  xx


The narrator adds it automatically, but I assume he is using an ACX script or guidelines. On my dash there is a place to enter this info, and I think my narrators use the numbers he finds there.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Just read this thread. It has relevance regarding audio and the promotion side: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,192452.0.html


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> If you go exclusive for the 7 years you are getting 40% (i'm on 50% atm) of the sales price (not the retail price) and on a $25 book like mine that means I get $7.04 per book


I'm missing something. How is $7.04 40% of $25? Are audio books discounted that much? Is there a middleman?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Al Stevens said:


> I'm missing something. How is $7.04 40% of $25? Are audio books discounted that much? Is there a middleman?


$7.04 is an average calculated by dividing unit sales into the actual dollar amount that went into my bank last time. It's the only way to work out what you'll get from Audible because of the way they sell there. The dashboard shows three types of sale plus a bounty. I have only ever received the bounty of $50 once. You get that for being the first audiobook a new member buys. In other words, your book got Audible a new member. Kaching!

So the three types of sale are:

Cash
Audible member using cash
Audible member using his credits.

The thing is, all three are worth differing amounts. Also, my books retail for $25, but actual cash sales price on Audible is $20. So $20 for cash, half of retail for members using a credit, and something else (that is in between) for member discount using cash. My dashboard tells me how many of each I get, but not how much each is worth <shrug> And don't forget, if a credit is used that is $12.50 of which I get 50% less tax etc etc etc.

Anyway, I only know my royalty is $7.04 per book by dividing the sales into income on my first and only royalty report. That was before ACX opened in the UK and my reports switched to quarterly. This time each sale might be worth $8 or $5! I have no bloody idea until the money lands. I have set up my spreadsheet using $7.04, but I have it so that I can enter a price in a cell and they all update. It's no biggy, except all I know is an estimated earnings until the 25Aug (ACX says)


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

$7.04 is pretty good. It usually averages out to around $5 - $6 per unit under the previous scheme.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JeffreyKafer said:


> $7.04 is pretty good. It usually averages out to around $5 - $6 per unit under the previous scheme.


Well like I said. My first royalty month was a short one, because the first book came out two weeks before the end of Feb. The following month would have given me a new number, but ACX withheld it at my request to add to my first quarter payment, because cheques cost a lot to convert to sterling and there is a fee to pay it into the bank as well. ACX were understanding and were happy enough NOT to pay me LOL! When I converted over to the UK ACX and direct deposit though, I also got stuck with the quarterly system.

I have no idea if my per unit royalty will be more or less than $7.04 this first quarter. My newest book is much longer, but is still in QC. I am guessing that it will be $30 retail or thereabouts. Its over 18 hours long. Surely that one will be worth $10 to me maybe? Who knows! All the books I have in production are under the old 50% system.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

List price on my books is $19.95, and royalty averages $5/book. Note though that that's with the former 50% royalty. If I were getting the current 40% royalty, it would be 20% of list price instead of 25%. 

Figure 20% of list price and you are probably very close. $19.95 is a 9-9.5-hour book. About 90K, but my books "read" fast.

I do get bounties sometimes. Not enough to buy a pony or anything, just a nice extra.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2014)

> This is all well and good if you have any traffic.


Not a problem.



> All because you want 100% of the profits. It is absolutely not worth it.


It is when I don't have to give 75% of my book away to Audible. Audiobooks are no more complicated than podcasts when it comes to distribution, and any mobile device can play an mp3. Almost all of them can play .ogg too.

Audible is doing nothing worth 75% of the list price.



> List price on my books is $19.95, and royalty averages $5/book.


I'm terribly sorry.


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## Pamela (Oct 6, 2010)

All my 5 books in Audio have Whispersync.  The buyer pays $1.99 if they bought the Kindle book, for the audio version.  I get a hefty $.25 cents per book. 

This is the reality.  I'm probably going to get stomped on here.  I agree that many narrators are very talented.  But they get compensated more than the actual person who spent months writing a book - then had it formatted, edited, and bought the cover for the book.  Many times narrators get thousands for narrating, plus they get as much in royalties as the author with a 50/50 split.  (Unless the author pays them out of their own pocket a really big chunk of change.)

I keep wondering why authors seem to always get the short end of the stick.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2014)

> I keep wondering why authors seem to always get the short end of the stick.


Because they insist on these all-or-nothing deals. "It's Audible or nothing!" they cry. That gives Audible the leverage they need to pry 75% of the value of your book out of your hands and into their bank account.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

abdanna said:


> Audiobooks are no more complicated than podcasts when it comes to distribution, and any mobile device can play an mp3. Almost all of them can play .ogg too.


You don't know what you're talking about. An iPod will not bookmark, for example, unless the file is in the .m4b format. Heck, it won't even recognize it as an audiobook. It is NOT as simple as distributing a podcast. But you'll find out on your own. Be sure to let us know how it goes.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Pamela said:


> Many times narrators get thousands for narrating, plus they get as much in royalties as the author with a 50/50 split.


I don't think it's both.

Perhaps we should ask Jeffrey: How many hours of your time go into the production of a finished hour of audio? How much does the typical narrator have invested in equipment or have to pay for studio time? I have a personal home recording studio for my music. I have a substantial investment in that facility. That stuff isn't cheap.

Narrating requires skill, training, and experience. Reviewing and editing the narration requires considerable effort and, again, technical skills. Shouldn't they get at least as much per hour as you'd pay a plumber for a house call?


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> I don't think it's both.
> 
> Perhaps we should ask Jeffrey: How many hours of your time go into the production of a finished hour of audio? How much does the typical narrator have invested in equipment or have to pay for studio time? I have a personal home recording studio for my music. I have a substantial investment in that facility. That stuff isn't cheap.
> 
> Narrating requires skill, training, and experience. Reviewing and editing the narration requires considerable effort and, again, technical skills. Shouldn't they get at least as much per hour as you'd pay a plumber for a house call?


I am not Jeffrey, but 4-6 hours of work per finished hour seems to be the average. So a 10 hour book like mine takes 60 hours to produce. That is a significant investment, IMO.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2014)

> It is NOT as simple as distributing a podcast. But you'll find out on your own. Be sure to let us know how it goes.


I've been selling audiobooks on my own for months.  The list of apps that can play mp3 and ogg files on iOS would fill this thread to 35 pages. VLC, for example:






can play anything. Literally _anything_.

This is presuming I don't turn my audiobooks into apps, at which point I can add features that iTunes can only dream of.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

abdanna said:


> I've been selling audiobooks on my own for months.


Great! And how many have you sold?


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> I am not Jeffrey, but 4-6 hours of work per finished hour seems to be the average. So a 10 hour book like mine takes 60 hours to produce. That is a significant investment, IMO.


That's about right for the narrator doing all the work himself. As narrators get to a certain level, they realize it's most cost effective to outsource the editing, QC, and mastering. That can run upwards of $75 per finished hour, which the narrator pays out of pocket. You can understand why seasoned narrators are less than willing to take on royalty share deals. They have all the risk.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2014)

> Great! And how many have you sold?


Several.

Is it that I don't bow down to Audible or I don't use iTunes that seems to have you so insistent that I am some kind of heathen? Running your own bookstore is simply not that hard. I'm not going to give Audible three out of every four dollars I earn with my books and my marketing work.


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## Pamela (Oct 6, 2010)

VydorScope said:


> I am not Jeffrey, but 4-6 hours of work per finished hour seems to be the average. So a 10 hour book like mine takes 60 hours to produce. That is a significant investment, IMO.


I absolutely agree with Al. I think my narrators are great. I paid an upfront fee of several hundred dollars for one of them + the 50/50 split. When you think that 60 hours to narrate is an enormous amount of time--it's less than 2 weeks at 8 hours a day. A writer spends months, even years, writing the book. The equipment narrators use is a one time deal. Writers spend money on each book for editors, formatters, covers, and then they have to do promotions. The narrators seldom spend money on promotions, and if we writers don't do it there are no sales or royalties for those narrators. So who gets the better deal? Not the writers for sure.

I know that narrators have enormous skills and need acting ability. That I applaud. I just think the writers continuously get short-shifted.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Short shifted? It's YOUR BOOK. If anyone is short shifting you, you're doing it to yourself. Narrators are hired guns. There is no reason why we should shoulder ANY of the risk. Remember, if we take on a Royalty share deal, we are putting our financial livelihood in the hands of you, your writing, and your ability to market. And we maybe out considerable production costs. Plus we only get the revenue from the audio. You get the revenue from all the other platforms.

Authors really need to stop comparing the time it takes to write a book versus the time it takes to narrate one. I'm not paid based on the amount of time I spend working, I'm paid for the value that work provides. And at 175 audiobooks, I'd say I've earned my rate.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Pamela said:


> All my 5 books in Audio have Whispersync. The buyer pays $1.99 if they bought the Kindle book, for the audio version. I get a hefty $.25 cents per book.
> 
> This is the reality.


Only if you allow it. You can break that sucker i you want, just take your kindle book and reformat it so that it no longer matches the audio. BUSTED.

Make a copy of the original in case you ever want to go back to whisper sync.


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## Paul K (Jan 11, 2014)

Mark, to what lengths do you need to go to to bust it? Would combining two chapters do the trick? Or something more elaborate?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Paul K said:


> Mark, to what lengths do you need to go to to bust it? Would combining two chapters do the trick? Or something more elaborate?


I broke mine by taking my three longest chapters and breaking them into six. I use names and numbers for my chapter like so: 23 ~ Charlie Epsilon 24 ~ End Game etc So I named the new chapters (and all mine have sub headings too, so I had to make up 3 new ones) renumbered the entire book's chapters so they followed on correctly, and then brought the TOC and NCX etc up to date. Because chapter headings and subheading are read by the narrator in my audio and my kindle books were now different, the auto whisper bot checker thingy failed and WS broke. Price goes back up.

Some have said this lack of whisper hurts sales. I don't know, I might try one with WS to see, but I didn't want WS in the first six months because i was trying to recoup production costs fast. It worked.


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## Pamela (Oct 6, 2010)

Thanks Mark - I really appreciate your input.  I didn't know you could change the book and bust the Whispersync after it was already done.

I'm going to contact my narrators and get their responses before I do anything.  If they want the Whispersync, then I won't change the books.  I believe they should have a say in the decision.

To Jeffrey - you are so talented and entitled to a great career.  Sorry.  This is not a battle at all.  I'm just pointing out that writer's talents are sometimes devalued by the system.  I certainly couldn't narrate a book.  I tried with my own.  Besides hating the sound of my own voice, it was hard work.  My throat got dry and sore, I would mispronounce a word and think, Darn, I'd have to go back and start that page, or paragraph or chapter, all over again.  My two narrators have wonderful abilities and I value them highly.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Mark,
How quickly after you reformat does the Whispersync option go away? If there is any kind of lag, don't you risk one-star reviews from upset consumers? Also, does "busting" Whispersync in this fashion violate the ACX terms, possibly leading to removal of the audiobook? (If it's not against the ACX terms, I wonder why authors aren't allowed to opt out of Whispersync?)


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Mike McIntyre said:


> Mark,
> How quickly after you reformat does the Whispersync option go away? If there is any kind of lag, don't you risk one-star reviews from upset consumers? Also, does "busting" Whispersync in this fashion violate the ACX terms, possibly leading to removal of the audiobook? (If it's not against the ACX terms, I wonder why authors aren't allowed to opt out of Whispersync?)


Terms: No idea! But Amazon have a FAQ on their help section about how to fix typos and stuff without breaking WS. I read that and did the opposite. I have kept the original ebook files and added WS to the file name so I can restore them once I decide I can afford to risk it. Don't forget Audible sells abridged versions of books too. They definitely won't WS from the get go.

If an audiobook doesn't passthe WS check, the audio isn't rejected at the QC stage, it just isn't sold with the WS logo and lower price.

It's about as quick as changing a cover. It won't break WS for people who already own the kindle book of course, because they have the old one in their libraries and Amazon doesn't push new versions without a special request and even then they still often won't do it.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

So you purposely punish your readers?  . You take away the ability to use whispersync and do immersion reading on the readers device. The reader was willing to not only buy your ebook, but also your audio book. 

Its been one of my favorite features to get into audio books. Retraining my brain basically. I can switch back and forth between the audio and the book within the book. It is so convenient. I have added narration to books I own this way right through my reading app. Its wonderful. 

I am thankful to Rosalind for keeping the whispersync then. I just started her book. Got the book and then added to narration with whispersync. Its been a pleasure. Sad that some want to take that away from their readers on purpose. Oh well.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Atunah said:


> So you purposely punish your readers? .


Yup! I purposely decided that I would like to eat this month, so I made sure I could by keeping the royalty up to $7 per book instead $1! My bad.

Actually being serious for a minute, now that I've repaid my production costs I might try WS for a while just to compare the difference. Many authors tell me that only a small number of audio buyers would bother with WS because they love audio not kindle. I'm that way myself, but I don't think audio listeners are stupid. They KNOW they can get a $20 audiobook for a $1 if they go and download the permafree kindle book, and pay $4.99 each for the others. In fact, because audio is so expensive, I think they are MORE likely to do this than less.



> I am thankful to Rosalind for keeping the whispersync then. I just started her book. Got the book and then added to narration with whispersync. Its been a pleasure. Sad that some want to take that away from their readers on purpose. Oh well.


Ros is super cool. She sells like 600 books a day. My 40 a day isn't in the same league. She could probably afford to make all her books permafree and still eat. I can't.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

I don't think many people use Whispersync for the "immersive experience." I think they are just good at 2nd grade math. It's not difficult to realize that instead of buying the audiobook all carte for $15, it's a better deal to buy the ebook for $5 and then grab the audiobook for another $2. I know I've done it and then just disregarded the ebook.

Curiously, the total earnings for the author is almost the same if I'd just bought one or the other.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JeffreyKafer said:


> Curiously, the total earnings for the author is almost the same if I'd just bought one or the other.


Not really:

No WS : Royalty on book 1 $0 plus audio $7.04 = $7.04
With WS :Royalty on book 1 $0 plus 50%x$2.34 = $1.17

So I need to sell 6 Whisper sync audio books to make the same as before


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

What percentage do you earn from ebook sales? 75?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JeffreyKafer said:


> What percentage do you earn from ebook sales? 75?


I sell at $4.99 and get 70% but book 1 is free. I get 50% for audio. I know that my book 1 audio sells (when Whispered) for $2.34 on the sales page.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

right, so someone like me who is ONLY trying to get the cheap audiobook will spend $5 on the ebook and then $2.99 on the audiobook. So you've made $3.50 on the ebook and $1.50 on the audiobook for a total of around $5. This is about the same as most people make on selling JUST the audiobook.

My point is that with Whispersync broken, you've probably not increased your revenue, because I'm not going to buy both the ebook and Audiobook without it.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I figure that WhisperSync gives me a rankings boost on the ebook as well as the audiobook, and may make somebody who was wavering about getting the audiobook--or getting the book at all--go ahead and do it, since it's a deal. It also seems to make them converts to audiobooks. I've been listening to some folks who've listened to one of mine as their first audiobook, and who especially love the WS functionality, raving about how cool it is to be able to listen. And that's all good for everybody, surely. That's how i see it, anyway. Any loss of revenue as sort-of a marketing expense. I've always seen "visibility" as my #1 goal in these first two years.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Rosalind James said:


> I figure that WhisperSync gives me a rankings boost on the ebook as well as the audiobook, and may make somebody who was wavering about getting the audiobook--or getting the book at all--go ahead and do it, since it's a deal. It also seems to make them converts to audiobooks. I've been listening to some folks who've listened to one of mine as their first audiobook, and who especially love the WS functionality, raving about how cool it is to be able to listen. And that's all good for everybody, surely. That's how i see it, anyway. Any loss of revenue as sort-of a marketing expense. I've always seen "visibility" as my #1 goal in these first two years.


I can tell you that I have been liking the whispersync feature so much with your book so far that I will be continuing on in the series with both ebook and audio. That is combination of how much I like your narrator and how affordable it will be to get the audio book, once I get the ebook.

For those that aren't sure what the benefits are with whispersync and of course each reader is different. For me it lets me start reading the book with my eyes. Then I can touch one button, throw on my head phones quickly with my bluetooth clip on and I go and do housework stuff. If I think I got distracted and didn't catch the last few minutes, I can go look at my tablet, page back on the immersion reading page and read along with the audio until I know where I was. It highlights the words as its spoken by the narrator. Its also helpful to do at the same time. Read the highlighted words as its being narrated. My eyes get messed up sometimes where I can't focus on the words as good and reading along with the audio really helps.

It helps people with dyslexia, folks with other eye issues, etc. Its just plain convenient and its making a audio user out of someone like me that has been trying for years to get into audio books. I can go back and forth between reading with eyes and reading with ears as I please.

And yes of course the price of the audio book is an incentive for me. I wouldn't get them otherwise to begin with. So I own the ebook and I get a deal on the audio book. It is either that, or I only buy the ebook. Those that don't have the ebook, nor want it, they just go and buy the audio book out right. There are plenty of those folks. I am like an additional purchaser that would otherwise not purchase the audio. And why would I pay more money for an audio book if I can't even use the features that are most important to me, whispersync.


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## Pamela (Oct 6, 2010)

I sent emails to my narrators. Both want me to break the Whispersync.

Here's the reply from one of them:

________________________
_"Hi Pam,

I say go for it and break the whisper sync, 25 cents is just too little. Thank you for asking me. Oh and I found that movie "I know that voice" it's on my instant queue. As soon as I have time I look forward to watching it."_
______________

I deleted his name on purpose, but he's the narrator for 3 of my novels. My other narrator was positive about breaking Whispersync as well.

_____________________
_She says: "As for whispersync...I have no idea about any of it! great sleuthing on your end. I am up to try anything!! More money would be awesome if that's possible. What are the next steps? What do you need from me? I am game for any of your suggestions."_
________________________

(By the way - anyone who wants to see some really talented narrators - watch "I know That Voice." It's free if you have Amazon Prime on their site. It's mostly narrators for cartoons, but what they do with their voices is amazing and fun to watch.)


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

That's really cool to know, Atunah. Thanks for sharing. Really glad you've been enjoying hearing Claire read. I know I do.  I think she's going to win an Audie someday, on some book. I really do.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Rosalind James said:


> That's really cool to know, Atunah. Thanks for sharing. Really glad you've been enjoying hearing Claire read. I know I do.  I think she's going to win an Audie someday, on some book. I really do.


I think you hit the jackpot with her. I have listened to so many samples of audio books over the years and some I just can't imagine listening to a full book. I think what really works in your case are the accents. They are believable and not over the top or cheesy. And again I just like the speed of the reading. Perfect for CR I think.

Its interesting to read the reviews on audible for the different audio books and how people rate them. The narrator can make or break the book I think.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Atunah said:


> I think you hit the jackpot with her. I have listened to so many samples of audio books over the years and some I just can't imagine listening to a full book. I think what really works in your case are the accents. They are believable and not over the top or cheesy. And again I just like the speed of the reading. Perfect for CR I think.
> 
> Its interesting to read the reviews on audible for the different audio books and how people rate them. The narrator can make or break the book I think.


I think you're exactly right. And for those who are wondering whether it's worth paying the big bucks to get a really good narrator: it is if Audible does this in consequence:

https://twitter.com/audible_com/status/500401569154990081

I about fell off my chair.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JeffreyKafer said:


> right, so someone like me who is ONLY trying to get the cheap audiobook will spend $5 on the ebook and then $2.99 on the audiobook. So you've made $3.50 on the ebook and $1.50 on the audiobook for a total of around $5. This is about the same as most people make on selling JUST the audiobook.
> 
> My point is that with Whispersync broken, you've probably not increased your revenue, because I'm not going to buy both the ebook and Audiobook without it.


Hey Jeff, I'm confused. I'm not trying to increase revenue, but protect current revenue from loss. AND this is relevent right now becaue book 1 and 4 have just gone WS!! Maybe Amazon read this thread.

I don't get anything for the kindle book as its free and usually get $7.04 for the audio book. But now it's whispered, and suddenly I STILL get nothing for the kindle book as its free and only $1.17 (or something) for the audio book. So I am down $6 per audio sale

How is that the same looked at from any angle at all?

EDIT: I'm not looking to increase my income by breaking WS. I'm trying to protect current Audio income by breaking it. In my (admittedly limited but increasing) audio experience, audio listeners will buy the ebook to save money but not bother to read it, while ebook readers just never buy the audio at all. They prefer "real" reading the same way paper buyers prefer "real" books.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> I figure that WhisperSync gives me a rankings boost on the ebook as well as the audiobook, and may make somebody who was wavering about getting the audiobook--or getting the book at all--go ahead and do it, since it's a deal. It also seems to make them converts to audiobooks. I've been listening to some folks who've listened to one of mine as their first audiobook, and who especially love the WS functionality, raving about how cool it is to be able to listen. And that's all good for everybody, surely. That's how i see it, anyway. Any loss of revenue as sort-of a marketing expense. I've always seen "visibility" as my #1 goal in these first two years.


I think rankings boost and converting people to audio is awesome in theory, but since going audio fully half my income is now audio (because royalty is higher not sold units) but 2 out of my four books just went WS, and has cut my total income per month by close to 25% over night. I wouldn't mind so much if we could use WS like a promo thing. Where we set it on book1 so that get the ebook free, get the audio book for $4 or something, but it seems totally random. I now have book 1 and 4 WS and to be honest I am NOT happy that 4 is WS.


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## Pamela (Oct 6, 2010)

Hi Mark,  I've suspected that KBoards is monitered by Zon.  People were complaining about indies not getting pre-sales.  Suddenly, after the thread goes viral, there is a new pre-sale for everyone's books on Amazon.

It's frightening to think about what happened to you.  In the case of a 50/50 split - it's the narrators who get screwed because at least we authors get a Kindle sale.  They get 25 cents per book that they spent hours narrating.  (So unfair - so Zon if you're listening--it's not out there for the narrators to see.)

Both my narrators want me to break Whispersync.  I want to do it as well.  

Mark, How can they continue to have your books in Whispersync, when the books and the audio don't match

Readers who get the Kindle and audiobook together and try to use Whispersync are going to be complaining bloody murder.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Pamela said:


> Hi Mark, I've suspected that KBoards is monitered by Zon. People were complaining about indies not getting pre-sales. Suddenly, after the thread goes viral, there is a new pre-sale for everyone's books on Amazon.
> 
> It's frightening to think about what happened to you. In the case of a 50/50 split - it's the narrators who get screwed because at least we authors get a Kindle sale. They get 25 cents per book that they spent hours narrating. (So unfair - so Zon if you're listening--it's not out there for the narrators to see.)
> 
> ...


As far as I know they can't if they don't match. Books 2 and 3 went WS last time. I fixed them and they have stayed fixed. Now its books 1 and 4. I've uploaded a fix for 4 but I sent a newsletter out today for fans to grab the audio of book 1 quick before I upload the fix on that one. Don't get me wrong. I KNOW how great WS is for readers. I am a heavy audio listener but because I know how much they cost to make I NEVER use WS. I rarely buy kindle at all if I can get the audio. I just use my audible credits. That's enough of a discount for me, and I prefer spending money to feeling guilty.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I don't get anything for the kindle book as its free and usually get $7.04 for the audio book. But now it's whispered, and suddenly I STILL get nothing for the kindle book as its free and only $1.17 (or something) for the audio book. So I am down $6 per audio sale


Right, your argument here is valid, because you're giving the book away. But for the others that you're selling, you're not losing much income at all. Because as you said, people are only buying both to get the audio cheap. As a result, you still make $5+ per customer (and that will vary depending on how much the WS price is).


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JeffreyKafer said:


> Right, your argument here is valid, because you're giving the book away. But for the others that you're selling, you're not losing much income at all. Because as you said, people are only buying both to get the audio cheap. As a result, you still make $5+ per customer (and that will vary depending on how much the WS price is).


But Amazon choose if and when to WS a book. THey have decided now for some reason to do 1 and 4 not 2 and 3. Personally from a greed pov and hopefully a "hook" I would prefer book 1 alone or book 1 and 2. That would be a more promotional way I feel. Still, you have to live with the reality and make it work. I am trying.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

For those who are thinking about narrating their own books, which will save you a lot of money, I suggest a peek here:

https://librivox.org/pages/volunteer-for-librivox/

Librivox is where you can download free public domain audio books. The site linked is about volunteering to be a reader, and it includes tips for how to best record an audiobook.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

If you plan to do your own narration, I strongly recommend this product:

http://www.entertainers-secret.com/

I have used it for years in my public speaking work, comedy, ventriloquism, and it's saved my butt more than once. You can get it from Amazon and many other sources.

It's eight bucks from this site (the best deal I've found) 
http://ventriloquism101.com/products/specials.htm (scroll down the page)


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## anewwriter (Aug 4, 2010)

like Libravox...you can download podiobooks submission guidelines. I am going to follow that and try to get a book accepted into acx....here is a link https://leanpub.com/podiobooks-submission-guidelines


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm preparing to record my first audiobook. It'll be my WIP, a 25,000-word memoir, which is about due to go beta. I decided on a shorter book just to get the hang of the discipline. I'm no stranger to speaking and recording, but rarely at the same time.

I have a little workspace set up and I'm building some sound-deadening panels now. Mic, pop screen, headphones, incadescent light, water bottle, Entertainer's Secret, and the computer across the room in a sound box to dampen the sound of the cooling fan.

The hardest part will be turning off the air conditioning while recording. Cooler weather is coming (even to Florida), and I'll most likely work at night in short, one-chapter spurts.

Now what to do with the studio cats?


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I started a trial run of book narration today. Everything went well except for one thing. I have two cats who live in the studio. Usually when I'm recording music or writing at the computer, they are quiet. But when they hear me talk, they have to get into the act and add their own vocal performances to the track. They might have to go in the house while I'm recording a book.

Anybody else considering doing their own narration? If so, we could get a thread started on that subject, maybe exchange fragments and critique one another.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

It's an exciting experiment you're embarking upon. I could never record my own. I've heard recordings of my own voice and I don't like it. You know how you sound different when recorded? I couldn't believe how "nasally" my voice sounds in recordings. I was horrified that everyone hears me like that, when in my head I sound like Brad Pitt! I don't look like him though.

On another audio book subject. Codes. I'm trying a giveaway on my Facebook again after Audible refunded me some unclaimed codes. In the past I haven't found success giving away stuff on FB, but I have managed to give four so far. My FB is in my sig if readers/listeners are interested.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Nobody likes their own voice when they first hear it. I bet you'd do just fine.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> Nobody likes their own voice when they first hear it. I bet you'd do just fine.


True, but most people don't have that "radio voice" or whatever you want to call it that works well for narration. In addition to the right "sound" you need to have the trained skill of speaking clearly and all that goes with that. Again, most people in my experience do not have that. You may, I have no way of telling via this means of communication, and that is great! It just is a mistake to think that because YOU can do it, everyone can/should. 

If anyone wants to try, I say go for it. You never know your own limits until you test them. Record a chapter and share it with trustworthy reviewers and see what they say. Might find out there is a career for you in narration.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

VydorScope said:


> True, but most people don't have that "radio voice" or whatever you want to call it that works well for narration.


That "radio voice" is just what I try to avoid. Because it sounds like what it is: a radio announcer. "But wait! There's more! Just pay separate processing and handling."

True, some people can't do it. But most can if they try. Enunciation and natural dynamics are important. And a good pace. Anyone who can talk on a telephone and be understood has a chance. But you never know until you try. Many people try too hard to sound "professional," and it comes out stiff and unnatural. You're telling a story not selling Ginsu knives.

The video on this page discusses it.
http://www.acx.com/help/authors-as-narrators/200626860

Whatever works for you. One thing that puts people off is the time it takes. Someone posted here that they have four to six hours invested in each finished hour of narration, and that sounds reasonable. Many people don't have the patience.

Of course, this being my first book narration, I might find my own work totally unacceptable.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

After running a music studio for a few years, doing original music and marketing it with varying success, I find that audio recording, done well, is a consuming activity. Mixing and mastering are like editing and cover design--best farmed out. So I use narrators rather than invest the time and money in doing it myself.  I need writing time as it is.

But if doing your book excites you or is just fun, go for it! It can be part of the whole connecting with the reader process, although I have to admit that I enjoy Richard Burton reading Dylan Thomas more than Dylan Thomas reading Dylan Thomas.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> True, but most people don't have that "radio voice" or whatever you want to call it that works well for narration. In addition to the right "sound" you need to have the trained skill of speaking clearly and all that goes with that. Again, most people in my experience do not have that. You may, I have no way of telling via this means of communication, and that is great! It just is a mistake to think that because YOU can do it, everyone can/should.
> 
> If anyone wants to try, I say go for it. You never know your own limits until you test them. Record a chapter and share it with trustworthy reviewers and see what they say. Might find out there is a career for you in narration.


I say go for it as well, but be aware that unlike kindle ebooks, audio is forever. Once it's on sale, you can't say "Oh bugger, Joe became Jamie halfway through!" It MUST be right first time. There's no do over once it's for sale.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I say go for it as well, but be aware that unlike kindle ebooks, audio is forever. Once it's on sale, you can't say "Oh bugger, Joe became Jamie halfway through!" It MUST be right first time. There's no do over once it's for sale.


So true, Mark. I re-edited ALL my other books after my first audiobook was recorded. With audio, you hear every single word. There's no skimming.

I'm not talking about typos--if you do find an actual error, you fix it during the recording process. I'm talking about where you've over-used a word or a phrase, where the writing could just have been better or smoother. Trust me, you (and the listener) will notice every one of those times.

I've listened to a lot--a LOT--of audiobooks. A good book can become great in audio, with the right narrator (and I'd say to only do it yourself, for fiction, if you're a really good actor. That's what the narrator is.) A book that isn't so great can become worse, because you do hear every word. And a great book can become fantastic.

(All of the above, of course, being subjective, but still, there'll be a general consensus. In other words, that review average. My narrator definitely makes my own books better, and her review average shows it!)


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> So true, Mark. I re-edited ALL my other books after my first audiobook was recorded. With audio, you hear every single word. There's no skimming.
> 
> I'm not talking about typos--if you do find an actual error, you fix it during the recording process. I'm talking about where you've over-used a word or a phrase, where the writing could just have been better or smoother. Trust me, you (and the listener) will notice every one of those times.
> 
> ...


Oh man, I totally agree. When you read a book, you tend to skim over things like " Roz said, Mark said " etc. If done right, you use them sparingly any way, but in audio EVERY SINGLE ONE is in your ear. It quickly becomes apparent when something is over done. My oldest books are fantasy. I haven't put them into audio yet, but bearing in mind how old they are and how much I have learned in the meantime, I'm going to re-edit/work them before allowing my narrator to look at them!


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

^^All of the above^^

If I've learned anything from this exercise, it is that before publishing an e-book or print edition, I should read the whole thing out loud to myself as if narrating it. There are constructs that read well enough in silence--that might even seem almost literary--but that fall apart when narrated. I haven't yet learned to recognize them until I've tried to speak them, but when edited to make them more speakable/listenable, they usually become more readable too.


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## Brevoort (Jan 27, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> If I've learned anything from this exercise, it is that before publishing an e-book or print edition, I should read the whole thing out loud to myself as if narrating it.


That is one of the most productive things you can do with your time during the revision and editing process.

I live in the journalistic/non-fiction world. Reading one's own work out loud, whether it be destined for print, radio, or television is a standard and never neglected step. It might seem to be a huge time sink but as you have likely discovered, it pays huge dividends. You can take it one further step if you like, and I recommend that you do; have it read by a good text to speech engine. Text-speech engines are available for just about every device out there and the quality is very good. Some are excellent. _(You can safely save up to 30% of your time doing this by having the speech engine speed up its reading, and without altering voice pitch.)_

I noted the comments earlier in this thread about some not liking the sound of their own voices. I have spent many years working in broadcast journalism and I have been in studio for many a new reporter's first few goes in front of the microphone. All, every one of them, myself included when I started, cringed and shrank upon hearing ourselves as others hear us.

But ask yourself this; has anyone ever remarked that you sound like a half strangled parrot, or a mumbling cave dweller? Nope, they haven't. With few exceptions we all sound pretty good to each other.

That said, there are many techniques for improving how you sound in front of a microphone and unless you are a natural in the studio you are probably going to have to learn some of them.

While writing this I followed an earlier link here to acx.com and did some exploring. There is a very impressive and professional series of tutorials and lessons on how to do your own recording. I really cannot add much to it because it is very good indeed so you might want to check it out.

But there is one thing that I believe would really make life much easier for the DIY audiobook maker. Find someone to sit on the other side of the studio glass to act as a combined audio engineer and producer. A second set of ears will save you hours of re-recording of mistakes you didn't pick up during the recording, correcting pronunciations, and having to redo a whole session because your phone was too close to the microphone and fed a buzz into the audio stream. A producer cum audio technician also frees you from the technology and allows you to concentrate on the script.

And one final point if I may. Others have touched on this, but, there is an immense amount of physical work involved in audio recording. Long sessions are punishing. Just a one hour session can leave you drained for the day.

And that one hour will not be one hour in the finished audiobook.

Over the years of producing hour long and more documentaries I have found that it will take a professional sound studio with a producer and an audio engineer about two hours of raw recording with a narrator to produce one hour of unedited narration. It will then take another two or even three hours to edit together the various takes, rerecord sections, balance sound levels, and then mix to a final take. An individual who does not have the experience and training will take much much longer to get that one hour.

A lot of standard mysteries and thrillers clock in around 10 or 12 hours, and more. So, you are looking at weeks of heavy work.

But if you like it, can commit to meticulous production standards, and can physically take the strain, then by all means do it. Many, many people have.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Oh man, I totally agree. When you read a book, you tend to skim over things like " Roz said, Mark said " etc. If done right, you use them sparingly any way, but in audio EVERY SINGLE ONE is in your ear. It quickly becomes apparent when something is over done. My oldest books are fantasy. I haven't put them into audio yet, but bearing in mind how old they are and how much I have learned in the meantime, I'm going to re-edit/work them before allowing my narrator to look at them!


Well can't you just tell the narrator to leave them out? I would think you might tweak things here and there like this.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> Well can't you just tell the narrator to leave them out? I would think you might tweak things here and there like this.


No, I want MY books to BE MINE muhahaha. Basically, I write them, he acts them. I don't want to farm out my side of the equation. Besides, what if he does stuff I don't agree with? That would suck. He would be forced to re-record anything I didn't like. Besides, it's not all about he said she said. Its a matter of bringing my experience to old work. I think they'll benefit from it, and I want the audio to be the best it can be.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> No, I want MY books to BE MINE muhahaha. Basically, I write them, he acts them. I don't want to farm out my side of the equation. Besides, what if he does stuff I don't agree with? That would suck. He would be forced to re-record anything I didn't like.


I am just thinking about my books. I have some long stretches of dialog between 3-4 people that would get confusing without the "said" tags. But if the narrator consistently voiced it right there would be no need for the said tags.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Brevoort said:


> <snip>
> But there is one thing that I believe would really make life much easier for the DIY audiobook maker. Find someone to sit on the other side of the studio glass to act as a combined audio engineer and producer. A second set of ears will save you hours of re-recording of mistakes you didn't pick up during the recording, correcting pronunciations, and having to redo a whole session because your phone was too close to the microphone and fed a buzz into the audio stream. A producer cum audio technician also frees you from the technology and allows you to concentrate on the script.
> <more snipping>


Big thumbs up on this, especially when you're getting started. Your eyes need to be on the script, not the meters. Your engineer's going to hear all those plosives, clothes swishes, tummy rumbles, mic stand bumps, etc that you're not going to hear. And if you misread a sentence, they will hopefully catch it right away (he said what??)

The read-through before recording is really useful. We did a group read-thru on my current project and used that to get running time and do quite a bit of editing before we even started recording. Our project is a full-cast drama, so just for reference, we will have about 150 minutes of running time, and for that we used about 18 hrs of studio time (including running a link between a studio in New Zealand and the US) and we have several hundred hours of editing time. Frankly, I'm sick of the damn thing! It will hopefully release Oct 1. You can hear samples on my soundcloud page which is linked on my signature.

Good points all!


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> But if the narrator consistently voiced it right there would be no need for the said tags.


It's not the narrator's job to edit your book to make it suitable for audio.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

JeffreyKafer said:


> It's not the narrator's job to edit your book to make it suitable for audio.


Yes and no. As employer hiring an expert to do a job, I would expect that expert to bring knowledge to the table to assist with getting the job done. In this case that would include making suggestions about how to make things sound the best they can when being read.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

They say you should always have a professionally produced book cover. I'd say that goes ten times so for a pro audio recording. If you are multi-talented and capable of narrating and producing your own work to professional standard, you have my respect and admiration. I would never dream of attempting it. I've done public speaking, am able to sustain a reasonably interesting tone etc., but would no more try to narrate a book than fly a plane.

I employed a professional at $425 pfh. And boy, was it worth it from a quality viewpoint. Whether it will be reflected in sales, I don't know, but the UK actor, Nicholas Camm transformed my book. The characters came to life in a way I'd never imagined they could. His interpretation of them has changed the way I write those characters (I write series). His skill with accents and the nuances he introduces to dialogue have knocked me out. I could spend a century trying to do what he has done, and I'd get nowhere near it. With Nick's narration skills, I believe I'll earn out at some point. With mine, it would raise much laughter, but little money.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has a sales comparison to offer with self-narrated books V pro-narrated? Perhaps someone started off with self-narration, then decided on a pro for future books?  

Good luck
Joe


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

As with book covers, there are some DIY audio books that are just as good as professional ones. Writing and reading are not mutually exclusive skills. But in general, I suspect that DIY audio is just as good as DIY book covers.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JeffreyKafer said:


> It's not the narrator's job to edit your book to make it suitable for audio.


This is my feeling, but I'm sure that if an author and narrator agree upon ground rules it could work. I just don't like the uncertainty myself. I would always wonder which parts the narrator felt "weren't good enough" compared with the bits I felt were essential. I would rather prepare the script myself and take the glory AND the blame.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Some authors employ ghost writers too.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

Went through the thread but didn't see anything that answers my question, which is, do romance writers typically hire narrators, and if they do, is it worth it? I'm considering it for the future, but if there's no point, I wont bother.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

One of the narrating issues I'm hitting with my non-fiction book is how to effectively speak bulleted list entriess and parenthetical phrases.

On a lighter side, this might help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4qii8S3gw


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Puzzle said:


> Went through the thread but didn't see anything that answers my question, which is, do romance writers typically hire narrators, and if they do, is it worth it? I'm considering it for the future, but if there's no point, I wont bother.


I don't know the answer, but I know how Iwould research it if I were you. Look on Amazon at the bestest and greatest romance sellers/books and see if they have audio editions. If they do, you can be pretty sure they hired narrators for them. So follow the books to audible and listen to samples. Make a shortlist of your favourite narrators and then search them on ACX. You should see their going rate. If all your favourites are in the same range, you can be pretty confident that you'll be paying within that range. If they vary wildly, you can choose based upon sample AND price for a good deal.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> Yes and no. As employer hiring an expert to do a job, I would expect that expert to bring knowledge to the table to assist with getting the job done. In this case that would include making suggestions about how to make things sound the best they can when being read.


 Their expertise is to bring your words to life with their narration/acting not editing words out. I would be tweaked if a narrator started taking words/sections out. That's a slippery slope that can turn ugly very quickly.

And they're independent contractors not your employees. You don't want the IRS thinking you're an employer.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> I would be tweaked if a narrator started taking words/sections out. That's a slippery slope that can turn ugly very quickly.


Oh agreed, Alan, but I assumed they'd agreed upon it before hand. Unsolicited editing of my words? No way. All that would happen would be no payment and a new narrator, but as I said, if agreed upon before hand then fine. I still wouldn't do it myself though.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Oh agreed, Alan, but I assumed they'd agreed upon it before hand. Unsolicited editing of my words? No way. All that would happen would be no payment and a new narrator, but as I said, if agreed upon before hand then fine. I still wouldn't do it myself though.


Yeah, I am not talking about "hey edit my story for free while you do the audio." I accept that I am a writer and not a voice actor. So I would expect the expert I contracted to do the work to have knowledge and experience that I do not. I would want to tap that resource to make the audio book as good as it can be.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Here's a new wrinkle I'm struggling with... I'm having my first book re-edited. I already have the audiobook. I'm not keen in removing it from the market since I haven't broken even yet, but the book version will probably be different once I upload the revised version. Is it unprofessional/unethical to leave the audiobook up there? I won't be producing a new version for the audiobook once the book is re-edited.

The advice upthread about re-editing and thinking about the audiobook as you write is excellent that way you don't rush into it like I did.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> Here's a new wrinkle I'm struggling with... I'm having my first book re-edited. I already have the audiobook. I'm not keen in removing it from the market since I haven't broken even yet, but the book version will probably be different once I upload the revised version. Is it unprofessional/unethical to leave the audiobook up there? I won't be producing a new version for the audiobook once the book is re-edited.
> 
> The advice upthread about re-editing and thinking about the audiobook as you write is excellent that way you don't rush into it like I did.


No it's not unethical, but then I WOULD say that wouldn't I? I've been making my ebooks different than the audio routinely to break WS, but that doesn't work anymore I have found. I couldn't remove my audio even if I wanted to because I'm exclusive for 7 years, but I wouldn't if I could. The kind of editing I am talking about is NOT plot changing or story changing, it's splitting chapters in two and/or a word choice here or there. Nothing that would spoil enjoyment.

As for thinking about the audio as you write the draft etc. That just makes sense in today's environment. Back in 2000 when my first books came out audio wasn't on my horizon. Now it's just part of the publishing process the same as kindle,and paperbacks are.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Thinking about audio when you write for ebook and print editions makes a lot of sense to me now. One of the nits I have with my WIP is that I sometimes write long sentences with no logical place for the narrator to take a breath. Since it's a WIP, I can correct that, but for my published books, I'll have to make allowances--mark breathing places on the manuscript in advance.

You'd think I'd know better. I write big band arrangements, and phrasing for wind instruments always takes the need for breaths into consideration.

Self-narrators should learn about what is called "diaphragmatic breathing," a natural technique that brass and reed players learn early on to help them sustain air support during long phrases and to support tone, projection, etc. I'm sure pro narrators know all about it. (We don't typically use it during conversation, fitting what we say to our available breath, but when you're speaking other people's words...


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I had a very low sales day for audio and it coincided with that weird drop at Amazon. Makes me wonder if a lot of my sales of audio are from people browsing the kindle sales page rather than browsing Audible directly.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

A nod to JeffreyKafer and any other narrator in this thread. I have a bunch auditions for my book now, and they are ones submitted by those charging 200-400pfh. Up till now I have been hunting through the 0-50pfh narrators, and there are some good readers in there. I think you can find a diamond in the rough but there is a LOT, A LOT, of slush to go through. On the flip side these auditions I got, they are taking my somewhat formal erudite writing style and making it flow naturally- _without changing the words_! I did not realize that was a possibility.

Obviously merely charging a high price or low price does not guarantee quality level, but man these auditions really changed my perception. There is a vast difference in skill between what I found in the weeds, and what is coming to me now. I highly recommend anyone heading down this path really think hard about finding the cash to get one of the better voice actors. It really makes a big difference.

I am convinced.


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## CristinaRayne (Apr 17, 2014)

VydorScope said:


> A nod to JeffreyKafer and any other narrator in this thread. I have a bunch auditions for my book now, and they are ones submitted by those charging 200-400pfh. Up till now I have been hunting through the 0-50pfh narrators, and there are some good readers in there. I think you can find a diamond in the rough but there is a LOT, A LOT, of slush to go through. On the flip side these auditions I got, they are taking my somewhat formal erudite writing style and making it flow naturally- _without changing the words_! I did not realize that was a possibility.
> 
> Obviously merely charging a high price or low price does not guarantee quality level, but man these auditions really changed my perception. There is a vast difference in skill between what I found in the weeds, and what is coming to me now. I highly recommend anyone heading down this path really think hard about finding the cash to get one of the better voice actors. It really makes a big difference.
> 
> I am convinced.


This is what I had to do to find my narrator, except I found quite a few quality ones within the 100-200pfh range. I was about ready to wash my hands of the whole thing because the audition process was so frustrating, but then I thought "what the heck" and raised my price range. Hopefully in the long run it'll turn out to be a good investment, but I wanted to try audio books at least once. Thanks everyone who has contributed to this thread. All the info really helped me make my final decision.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

CristinaRayne said:


> This is what I had to do to find my narrator, except I found quite a few quality ones within the 100-200pfh range. I was about ready to wash my hands of the whole thing because the audition process was so frustrating, but then I thought "what the heck" and raised my price range. Hopefully in the long run it'll turn out to be a good investment, but I wanted to try audio books at least once. Thanks everyone who has contributed to this thread. All the info really helped me make my final decision.


I have gotten 1 or 2 from the 100-200pfh range also that have been great. I mean the price they charge is not REALLY an indication of quality, but it sure is heck seems to hold fairly consistently. You get what you pay for and all that.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> You get what you pay for and all that.


Except for our indie books of course!  Price doesn't have anything to do with quality then


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Except for our indie books of course!  Price doesn't have anything to do with quality then


TRUTH!!!!


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I just hit a small problem. Homophones. Usually context will tell the reader which meaning applies. But here's the one that stumps me:

_Diabetes is often found in one's genes. (And, as you get older, in your jeans.)_

How should the narrator handle that one? Add a parenthetical "spelled with a j?"


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> I just hit a small problem. Homophones. Usually context will tell the reader which meaning applies. But here's the one that stumps me:
> 
> _Diabetes is often found in one's genes. (And, as you get older, in your jeans.)_
> 
> How should the narrator handle that one? Add a parenthetical "spelled with a j?"


Blue jeans?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

travelinged said:


> Blue jeans?


Good choice.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks. Since I'm not publishing the e-book until I get a first take on the audio book, I'll go for the blue jeans.


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## A.W.Hartoin (Dec 27, 2011)

Has anyone submitted their audiobook for Audie award? My narrator thinks we should, but I don't know anything about APA.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

A.W.Hartoin said:


> Has anyone submitted their audiobook for Audie award? My narrator thinks we should, but I don't know anything about APA.


The deadline for 2015 is Oct 17th for titles published Aug 1 2014 thru Oct 31 2014. It costs $175 + $50 late fee. If your narrator is an APA member it costs $100 plus the late fee. There are three categories which still require physical CD submittals (package design, multi-voiced performance, and audio drama - also audiobook of the year apparently also requires CDs).

FYI there is a special category for narration by the author.

I am submitting for audio drama this year.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Looking for idioms that might trip up the audio narration:

I'm reading my WIP aloud before publishing the e-book and print editions to see how well the narration will go in the audio edition. I hit this sentence last night:

"...my son-in-law is type 1 too." (talking about diabetes)

That sentence doesn't read well without a potential for confusion. As in "type one two." I'll change it in the draft to "also," and be careful in the future about those kinds of homophobes slipping into my text.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> Looking for idioms that might trip up the audio narration:
> 
> I'm reading my WIP aloud before publishing the e-book and print editions to see how well the narration will go in the audio edition. I hit this sentence last night:
> 
> ...


Why not be totally clear and say "...my son-in-law is a also a type one diabetic."?


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

So I got me an Audible Approved Narrator and we are about 50% through the book now. He is doing a great job. It has been a lot of fun. He sends me 2-3 chapters at a time to review/approve which is great. That way there are no surprises at the end. That was the system he told me he preferred without me asking, and I am very happy to spend my nights going through the audio and catching any mistakes (which are extremely few). 

The only real problem will be raising enough money to pay him for the next book.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Naw, you'll rake it in on this one!!!


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

travelinged said:


> Naw, you'll rake it in on this one!!!


I sure hope you are right.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

travelinged said:


> Why not be totally clear and say "...my son-in-law is a also a type one diabetic."?


It is already totally clear when read in context.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

I'm mulling over an audio book…recording it myself. I have a good mic and a decent voice.  My upcoming MG novel, however, has both chapters from the hero's POV, and short interstitial passages from another character's POV. The short passages were market not with chapter headings, but a little illustration. So how would I mark them in the audio-version? Is there a word for something not quite a chapter? Do audio books describe illustrations?  Obviously, I am not an audio book consumer.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Deke said:


> I'm mulling over an audio book...recording it myself. I have a good mic and a decent voice. My upcoming MG novel, however, has both chapters from the hero's POV, and short interstitial passages from another character's POV. The short passages were market not with chapter headings, but a little illustration. So how would I mark them in the audio-version? Is there a word for something not quite a chapter? Do audio books describe illustrations? Obviously, I am not an audio book consumer.


Glad to hear it. I was beginning to think I was the only DIY narrator here.

The word is "scene," and the separator word for *** is "wingding," which is meant to separate scene breaks that coincide with page breaks.

Does the narrative depend on the illustrations? If not, think about treating the short passages as sidebars. Insert short pauses at the beginning and end of the passage and try a slight change of voice. Maybe slight pitch and meter changes. That works well if the POVs are in first person, but you can try it for third person.

Being a musician, I'd think about inserting short audio passages of music to signal the scene breaks, kind of like the background music on old time radio dramas. There are plenty of royalty-free music clips available online. You'd fade them in and out for effect.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

For musical interludes, check out this site:

http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Thanks.  "Scene break" may work just fine. I had thought about using music too…some sort of theme to show we're shifting character POV. That is a great idea.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Deke said:


> I'm mulling over an audio book...recording it myself. I have a good mic and a decent voice. My upcoming MG novel, however, has both chapters from the hero's POV, and short interstitial passages from another character's POV. The short passages were market not with chapter headings, but a little illustration. So how would I mark them in the audio-version? Is there a word for something not quite a chapter? Do audio books describe illustrations? Obviously, I am not an audio book consumer.


Illustrations and photographs which are integral to the book (this occurs most often in non-fiction, but sometimes in fiction, too) are handled in the following manner:
The author assembles all of them onto a PDF, submits them to ACX/Audible, and then they are sent as a downloadable supplement to the audiobook. In this manner, the consumer can listen to the audiobook and see the images referred to in the narrative as he listens.

Deke, if this is your first attempt at doing an audiobook, you'll find this issue to be the least of your worries. Just keep your shoulder into it and climb that learning curve.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Mike Dennis said:


> Illustrations and photographs which are integral to the book (this occurs most often in non-fiction, but sometimes in fiction, too) are handled in the following manner:
> The author assembles all of them onto a PDF, submits them to ACX/Audible, and then they are sent as a downloadable supplement to the audiobook. In this manner, the consumer can listen to the audiobook and see the images referred to in the narrative as he listens.


Thanks. I didn't know they did that. The book would need to have been written with this in mind. Figure numbers need to be specifically cited in the narrative. Just saying "...shown below" won't do. Another case where the content is written with audio in mind.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Are epigraphs usually narrated?


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## Pamela (Oct 6, 2010)

I have two narrators.  Each is an actor and both use different voices for each character.  In Deadly Memories my narrator does amazing French accents, with different voices for each of the French characters.  I have a male narrator who does females brilliantly.  I really feel lucky.  

I didn't sell any for days, and just got a dump of sales today. Odd.

I had no idea one could add illustrations.  Great for those who have maps in their books.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Deke said:


> Thanks. "Scene break" may work just fine. I had thought about using music too...some sort of theme to show we're shifting character POV. That is a great idea.


No, you just pause. Don't add little music dings or such things. Listeners will find it annoying.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Radio drama revival crews are using musical interludes very much like the old-time radio shows did. I don't think listeners are finding it annoying. Of course, it has to be done tastefully.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Audiobooks are NOT radio drama revivals! Please stop making that comparison. How many single narrator audiobooks have you listened to that employ that crutch?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I have 100s of books in my library now. All use single narrators, all use pauses, none use music except in start and end credits, and none use extensive SFX.

Music and SFX are two of those things that everyone thinks should be a good idea, but like the old "wouldn't animation/music/advertising be great" in ebooks debate, they rarely are.

Remember all that enhanced eBook hoohah  that comes up every so often? It never comes to anything because that stuff distracts the reader. I think music and such in audio books fits the same category.the real problem with music is that whether a listener likes it or not is very subjective and determined by readers taste. They either love it or hate it. So 50/50, but you'll never see a listener say  they hate a book because it DIDN'T have music or SFX in it.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Mark is my new best friend.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Please stop telling what I may and may not compare. I've been annoying audiences since before most of you were born.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

You may be older than me, but I've got a LOT more experience in this field than you. So please listen to me when I tell you that little wingding musical things or "themes" to introduce a character POV or hackneyed and out of place in a modern audiobook. This is NOT a radio drama. And it sure as hell ain't a melodrama.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Don't get locked into a paradigm just because that's how it's always been done. Keep your options open. The whole trad publishing industry almost got rollercoastered by e-books and self-publishing because they resisted for so long.

I doubt that I'd use intervals for scene breaks, but then I don't write the kind of passage breaks that Deke described. I might however, use musical intervals between chapters kind of like the intros to the Harry Potter audio books.

Changes are market-driven. As soon as some blockbuster uses sound effects and background music, the lemmings will fall in line. The problem is, not many technicians or narrators know how to do it.



> And it sure as hell ain't a melodrama.


And I hope it doesn't get to be.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Gentlemen...

just sayin'.  You've both made your points.  Agree to disagree and move on.

Thanks.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

So since this thread is still going, an update on my audio experiences...

My narrator is new to audiobooks (which is probably why he agreed to a royalty split as I can't think why anybody would agree otherwise to doing all the work upfront with no guarantees!). We're a few chapters in now and I'm loving it.

Initially I found it really hard to take a step back and let him decide how my characters should sound. But it's like film where the director makes these decisions. I'm glad I backed off and let him interpret characters and scenes. It took me a while to get into his voice and what he's doing, but I'm finding a whole new dimension my novel now as I', listening to a stranger - a man - breathe life into these people.

Ir's awesome.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Thanks for the tips.  Fortunately in todays magical world its easy to try different things.

As a newbie I'd welcome suggestions on the best audio books people know of. Which ones really stand out as great examples of the craft?


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## CristinaRayne (Apr 17, 2014)

The best audio book I've ever listened to was Neil Gaiman's _Neverwhere_. Of course, the ones doing the "narration" (it was more an adaptation) were Christopher Lee, James McAvoy, Benedict Cumberbatch, Anthony Head, etc so that may have had something to do with it.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I like the Harry Potter books. We have "HP & the Deathly Hallows" on CD and it's really listenable. I like "Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe" too. Two different accents, one male, the other female. Good contrast.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2014)

My audiobook is ready!  I'll start promoting to my social networks and such tomorrow.  So exciting!  

Thank you, again, to Mark Cooper for putting the idea of forging ahead with an audio book into my brain.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

These were the 2014 Audie finalists in fiction:

Doctor Sleep; by Stephen King; Narrated by Will Patton; Simon & Schuster Audio

The Golem and the Jinni; by Helene Wecker; Narrated by George Guidall; HarperAudio

The Good House; by Ann Leary; Narrated by Mary Beth Hurt; Macmillan Audio

The Imposter Bride; by Nancy Richler; Narrated by Tavia Gilbert; Tantor Media

Jacobâ€™s Oath; by Martin Fletcher; Narrated by George Guidall; Macmillan Audio

The Ocean at the End of the Lane; by Neil Gaiman; Narrated by Neil Gaiman; HarperAudio


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Joliedupre said:


> Thank you, again, to Mark Cooper for putting the idea of forging ahead with an audio book into my brain.


I second that. Mark's accounts of his audiobook experiences were what pushed me into getting serious about it.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Another minor glitch with my audio WIP:

The WIP is a first-person memoir. I found that in several places I'd tell the reader about what he or she might "read" elsewhere in the book. It occurred to me that "read" might not properly convey the idea to an audio listener. I changed those places in the baseline manuscript to language that fits both sitations.

('m waiting to publish the e-book and print editions until I've gotten past all these little nits.)


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Thanks for the list of good books to listen to. Are there any good tutorials for us DIY'ers. I've got a good mic and have been recording in Garage Band on my mac. Haven't tackled editing yet.


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## J.B. (Aug 15, 2014)

CristinaRayne said:


> Trying, but so far after a month, no auditions have been submitted. Maybe the title is just not suited for audio or I'm just unlucky...who knows?


I've heard that narrators, the good one's are avoiding the revenue share model. Mostly because they can do all that work, and not see payback if the book doesn't sell well.

This well written post discusses the whole, 'how do you promote your audio book' issue in great detail: http://www.laura-e-kelly.com/i-made-acx-audiobooknow-do-i-do/#audience and touches on this concern.

I write short erotica, so it's easier to pay the upfront costs and just go find narrators you like and make them an offer.

The one I wanted (Jennifer Saucedo) jumped on it within hours of my proposal.

I'm not sure what the answer is for writers of longer works.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Deke said:


> Thanks for the list of good books to listen to. Are there any good tutorials for us DIY'ers. I've got a good mic and have been recording in Garage Band on my mac. Haven't tackled editing yet.


The ACX website itself has some good links for DIY'ers.

What noise floor are you getting to in your recordings? You "need to" get below -60dB without using a noise gate and that can be a challenge in terms of quieting your recording space.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Let's talk audio books and KU for a minute. I have one title in select and the audio will be in production soon. Will iI only get $1.54 for the audio as well as $1.54 for the kindle version?


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Let's talk audio books and KU for a minute. I have one title in select and the audio will be in production soon. Will iI only get $1.54 for the audio as well as $1.54 for the kindle version?


That would not be a good thing. The earn out goal posts move rapidly into the distance.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

"What noise floor are you getting to in your recordings? You "need to" get below -60dB without using a noise gate and that can be a challenge in terms of quieting your recording space."

Not sure what you mean by this.  I'm using a quality cardioid mic and it doesn't pick up much background noise. Sounds very pleasant on play back. I'm not even getting any popping P's even without a guard. I assume that once I have it all edited I'll be able to set levels for the final output.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

travelinged said:


> That would not be a good thing. The earn out goal posts move rapidly into the distance.


A fan sent me a screenshot of his audible app. He was so excited because he had just downloaded 30 "free" audio books from the KU store. I was all "Yay... holy crap what am I gonna do! " haha! He says because he can only have 30, he is going to listen to them all and buy the best few.

Hmmm. These audio books are probably whisper synch to $2.99 or something anyway, so we would only lose another $1.46 right? Just another dollar or two, who cares... Right?


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> A fan sent me a screenshot of his audible app. He was so excited because he had just downloaded 30 "free" audio books from the KU store. I was all "Yay... holy crap what am I gonna do! " haha! He says because he can only have 30, he is going to listen to them all and buy the best few.
> 
> Hmmm. These audio books are probably whisper synch to $2.99 or something anyway, so we would only lose another $1.46 right? Just another dollar or two, who cares... Right?


Sure. WTF? It's only money after all. [gulp!]


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

[nobbc][/nobbc]


travelinged said:


> Sure. WTF? It's only money after all. [gulp!]


Hah! Still, not everyone likes audio (I know, weirdos right?) so it's not like EVERYONE will just grab a free audio book is it? I mean, some of them will borrow the kindle version and then buy it, and some won't. Some will borrow the audio and then buy it for... 1.99 as a whisper synch and save that $18 dollars won't they?


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## Brevoort (Jan 27, 2014)

Deke said:


> "What noise floor are you getting to in your recordings? You "need to" get below -60dB without using a noise gate and that can be a challenge in terms of quieting your recording space."
> 
> Not sure what you mean by this. I'm using a quality cardioid mic and it doesn't pick up much background noise. Sounds very pleasant on play back. I'm not even getting any popping P's even without a guard. I assume that once I have it all edited I'll be able to set levels for the final output.


If I may jump in here to help a bit, sorry if it is intrusive.

The Noise Floor in a recording is the product of every bit of audio noise that is generated before you start recording the main performance, in your case, the human voice. All recording systems produce noise and the goal of every recording technician and producer is to reduce the noise as much as possible, even to the point of never ending noise suppression obsession.

Obvious sources such as fans, fluorescent lights, and air conditioners are straightforward to deal with. But the workings of all of the electronic equipment also produces noise, so too does far off traffic that you are unconsciously aware of, a solitary crow five houses down, the very slightest wheeze your sleeping cat makes in the studio. Just the increased heat generated by your computer which you have now covered with a blanket to quiet the fan pumps noise into the recording.

The advice to get it to a maximum of -60 dBu is very good and you should strive for that as a goal to be bettered. Professional recording studios fight their way down to -90 dBu and many a bar bet has been won and lost over who could do better.

Plug in all the equipment you will be using, turn on the mic, lights, etc and so on and let the software record several minutes of the so-called silence in your booth. Do not try to use noise limiters, plugins etc at this stage.

Analyze that recording and go noise hunting.

During the final mix you may want to run some noise gates in the pauses, or even go right into the wave-form and delete the noise during the pauses. _(This extra work is why recordings are so very expensive to produce and intensely stress producing.)_

As mentioned, the ACX site has some excellent tutorials and recording lessons. In addition there is an amazing amount of professional audio advice on the net.

A final point about noise. You know how there will always be a typo in your book that has escaped 8 beta readers, three editors, and a thousand readers only to be picked up by a particularly nasty typo nazi? Well, the same thing exists in the audio world, and I guarantee that outside listeners will hear stuff in your recording that you would have bet big money was not there.

_(*Source*: many years as a producer, director, performer in TV & Radio recording studios - but never an actual audio engineer)
_
Rick 
Calgary


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Oooooh! My new audio, Wolf's Revenge, is "headed to retail" according to my ACX dashboard.

PS: Royalties after WS etc have settled down from $7.04 to $5.90 now. So not the end of the world after all.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

My first audio book is live!


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

VydorScope said:


> My first audio book is live!


That's great! Can you post a link?


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

555aaa said:


> That's great! Can you post a link?


Sure!


http://www.audible.com/pd/Sci-Fi-Fantasy/The-Enemy-of-an-Enemy-Audiobook/B00O4DCA9S/


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> Sure!
> 
> 
> http://www.audible.com/pd/Sci-Fi-Fantasy/The-Enemy-of-an-Enemy-Audiobook/B00O4DCA9S/


Nice cover. Grats on getting it to audio, mate.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Looks nice! Thanks for posting.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks, I love the cover - but it is just temporary until I afford custom art.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> Thanks, I love the cover - but it is just temporary until I afford custom art.


No its not. As far as I know you can't change stuff at ACX the way you can at KDP. I think you'll find that cover is permanent.


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## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> No its not. As far as I know you can't change stuff at ACX the way you can at KDP. I think you'll find that cover is permanent.


Yes you can - but you have to email the new cover to ACX. I'm a terrible tweaker, and rang them when I discovered I couldn't change _Remix_'s cover.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Lexi Revellian said:


> Yes you can - but you have to email the new cover to ACX. I'm a terrible tweaker, and rang them when I discovered I couldn't change _Remix_'s cover.


Cool! That is excellent news, Lexi. I have no plans to change mine, but never say never eh? I'm glad they are open to this sort of thing. Is this policy though? I hope it wasn't just a special favour to you.


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## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

No, it's just what they do. Perhaps one day Amazon will get them to make it more user-friendly like KDP.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Has anybody done audiobooks and NOT gone through Audible?

Of course there are a lot of ways if you produce a physical CD, but I noticed that other independent services like CDbaby can get digital files into Amazon. (They have a list at the bottom of this page at Amazon.)

I'm playing right now with recording podcasts and putting them up on YouTube for practice. I'd LIKE to be able to do short permafree audiobooks as well, but not sure how I want to distribute. Audiobook listeners will want MP3s, I'd think, not a YouTube video. Hosting for podcasts is either expensive or a really bad user experience. (I'm thinking, though, of at least offering a "short story of the month" or something from my website -- only one at a time.)

Camille


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Yes, I have an audiobook out now that is not on Audible.

I use disk masters for CDs, and cdbaby for digital downloads.

Here's the link on cdbaby.

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/hgwellsfullcastaudio

You get to set your own prices on cdbaby, and they can push your audio to iTunes and Amazon's mp3 store, although those are more set up for music.

If I was going to do a free podcast each month I'd probably do it on SoundCloud. There are free accounts which give you about an hour of recorded material time and pretty reasonably priced pro accounts which give you several hours. The quality at SoundCloud is good and many big companies use it. You should check out the Big Five's (Hachette, Simon & Schuster, etc) audiobook pages on SoundCloud. I keep encouraging folks here to get their own SoundCloud accounts and post their narration during development as a way to build interest.

Here's the link to this book as a CD: (the book link is NOT my book!)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Island-Doctor-Moreau-Wells/dp/1940650119

and here it is in the mp3 store where it is very overpriced. Amazon and iTunes algorithmically set an "album" price which is high

http://www.amazon.com/Island-Doctor-Moreau-Various-artists/dp/B00O5GFNFW

The folks at cdbaby have warned me however that Amazon has been expunging audiobooks out of the mp3 store. There is a lot more visibility at Audible anyway and Amazon has a pretty heavy marketing program for Audible right now.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Thanks!

Soundcloud is definitely on my list.  I don't know what I'll be doing in terms of volume yet, so I don't know how the limitations would affect me.

Youtube works for my podcasts because I can embed it and I learned most of what I know about sound doing film anyway.  But when I do it "for reals" I'll might be doing things like novellas (I have a couple of serials, and such that would be fun to do in sound).  I actually have some things that are full length that I might want to give away as an audio book, so right now, I'm just looking at options.

Of course, with permafree, I might be able to get it onto some public domain site like Librivox.

Camille


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## J.B. (Aug 15, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> My audiobook is ready! I'll start promoting to my social networks and such tomorrow. So exciting!
> 
> Thank you, again, to Mark Cooper for putting the idea of forging ahead with an audio book into my brain.





daringnovelist said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Soundcloud is definitely on my list. I don't know what I'll be doing in terms of volume yet, so I don't know how the limitations would affect me.
> 
> ...


Please keep us posted in this thread on how it goes for you if you try any of above. Especially getting into Librivox.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

According to their website, Librivox places their recordings into the public domain. Permafree, on the other hand, usually means you are giving away copies of your copyrighted books. There's a difference.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Al Stevens said:


> According to their website, Librivox places their recordings into the public domain. Permafree, on the other hand, usually means you are giving away copies of your copyrighted books. There's a difference.


Well, they don't actually place it in the public domain -- It has been a while since I've read their TOS, but they are a site which people record public domain books, and they freely distribute them. (Similar to Gutenberg, but for Audio.) I thought they did a Commons license of some sort.

Because audio creates a new copyrighted work -- even when the book itself is in the public domain -- much of their language is designed to make sure the audio artist knows that the recording itself is being treated the same way as the public domain work they are recording. They don't normally deal with works that are themselves under copyright.

I'll have to look closely, because their _intention_ and mine are the same -- freely distributable works, but with proper attribution. They don't intend for the recordings to be edited and remixed for someone else's purpose, or for their voice artists to be legally plagiarized (i.e. someone else is not free to put their name on the recording).

But I realize I need to look closely at the licensing language: it's possible that, because they have people "adapting" written works by turning them into audio, they might offer a more open license than I want to give.

All the same, I'm not fully sure that I care.

Camille


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

If you really want to just give the audio away, but retain the copyright, then you're better off using podiobooks.com


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JeffreyKafer said:


> If you really want to just give the audio away, but retain the copyright, then you're better off using podiobooks.com


The question is where the readers I want to reach are.

Camille


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> The question is where the readers I want to reach are.


So do both. If you're giving it away, give it away everywhere.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JeffreyKafer said:


> So do both. If you're giving it away, give it away everywhere.


Absolutely. However, truly doing it _everywhere_ takes time and effort. The question is first where the readers are you want to reach. Don't waste time doing it blindly.

I brought up Librivox because my readers tend to like classics and more people I know who listen to audiobooks know about it. I don't know enough about Podiobooks to know whether it's worth the trouble or not. I associate it with serialized fiction, and a quick look shows that they don't have much in my genres. It seems like a real podcast is more suited for that. But if there is a building community in my genres... then yeah, of course.

Camille


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Is there a marketing incentive to doing an audio book for an e-book 1st in the series that is perma-free? Given that whispersync practically gives away the audio book, making it an incentive for readers to buy the e-book in order to get the discounted audio book, what's the point? To drive them to a free download? Sorry if I'm not making myself clear.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Its the other way around. The permafree drives traffic to your series, and because whisper synch some of those free downloaders spill over into audio. Those who like the first book in audio (and audio is awesomely addictive) buy the rest. My most popular audio is permafree in kindle. It makes sense when you think a bout it. If you get 1700 free downloads a month, even a small percentage buying the audio adds up.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> Soundcloud is definitely on my list. I don't know what I'll be doing in terms of volume yet, so I don't know how the limitations would affect me.
> 
> Camille


In terms of volume? I think you should go to eleven.


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## Karen Commins (Oct 1, 2014)

Greetings, all! I'm an audiobook narrator who is a little late to this party, but I've read all of the preceding comments in the thread.

Those of you who are thinking about creating audiobooks may benefit from reading Penny Sansevieri's article in the Huffington Post blog earlier this week:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/penny-c-sansevieri/audiobooks-the-next-big-t_b_6067044.html

She detailed the steps that she went through to produce her book using ACX.

I wrote the following reply, which is yet to be posted to the site:

Greetings, Penny! As a professional audiobook narrator who does a lot of work through ACX, I was delighted to read this detailed article about the process.

I want to clarify one thing about payment. You wrote:

"You can also get your book production for free by doing a reader royalty share, but it's not the quickest or most efficient way to get your audiobook created. "

The production costs are not actually FREE on a royalty share contract. A royalty share contract is a DEFERRED PAYMENT option to pay the production costs out of the royalties. It's an attractive option for those authors who don't have the cash up front.

Labeling the production as "free" is really a dis-service to the professional narrators and editors who strive to make an indie author's book sound competitive with audiobooks produced by big 5 publishers in top NYC and LA studios.

As you stated, the rule of thumb is that 6 hours of real time are needed to produce 1 finished hour of audio. A 10-hour book therefore could require 60 hours or more of effort from the narrator and her editing/proofing team. Most people cannot work for 60 hours without some sort of payment.

Therefore, many narrators refuse to take a straight royalty share contract. All of the risk for sales lies with us. The author still makes money from the other editions, but the narrator can only make money from the sales of the audiobook.

ACX currently adds a $100 per finished hour (PFH) stipend to some royalty share books of its choosing. An author may request the stipend by writing to ACX.

If ACX doesn't add the stipend, many authors are offering contracts of $100 PFH stipend plus royalties. This way, some of the production costs are paid to the narrator up front, and the author can attract more experienced talent for her production.

I have compiled and categorized a document with articles that are helpful to authors who are beginning to create audiobooks. I added this one to it and invite your readers to download a copy:

http://www.KarenCommins.com/othermedia/AudiobookResourcesForAuthors.docx

Thanks for the excellent article. I'm looking forward to the next one on audiobook marketing!


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Karen, the link to your docx doesn't work here.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Quick question for Mark. I looked for this on the ACX site but didn't find it.

When you submit to ACX, what do they require in the way of cover art?


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## Karen Commins (Oct 1, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> Karen, the link to your docx doesn't work here.


Hi, Al. Thanks for the note. My Docx link worked for me. The file was automatically downloaded to my system. Did you check your download directory?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Al Stevens said:


> Quick question for Mark. I looked for this on the ACX site but didn't find it.
> 
> When you submit to ACX, what do they require in the way of cover art?


Just had a quick look at my art files. They are 2400x2400 jpg RGB 300dpi files. They must be square. Any designer you use probably has experience with Audible by now.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Karen Commins said:


> Hi, Al. Thanks for the note. My Docx link worked for me. The file was automatically downloaded to my system. Did you check your download directory?


Got it. Instead of opening the document or saving it to Downloads, it opens a Save As dialog. something not seen often in this context. It confused me (which happens more and more these days). Thanks for the into.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Just had a quick look at my art files. They are 2400x2400 jpg RGB 300dpi files. They must be square. Any designer you use probably has experience with Audible by now.


Nope. He doesn't. Because he's me. Thanks. I know what to do now.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> Quick question for Mark. I looked for this on the ACX site but didn't find it.
> 
> When you submit to ACX, what do they require in the way of cover art?


Just FYI here is the offical answer:

http://www.acx.com/help/rights-holders/200474610#cover-art-specs

ACX's faq has lots of good information in it, worth your time to read up.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Karen Commins said:


> Greetings, all! I'm an audiobook narrator who is a little late to this party, but I've read all of the preceding comments in the thread.
> 
> Those of you who are thinking about creating audiobooks may benefit from reading Penny Sansevieri's article in the Huffington Post blog earlier this week:
> 
> ...


Everyone who is thinking of doing their first audiobook should reread all of Karen's post, paying close attention to the part about producing an audiobook that will be competitive with those produced by the Big 5 in New York and Los Angeles.


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## J.B. (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> From what I have learned, limited to my own narrations and auditions, there is no such thing as "not suited" for audio. There are just more profitable and less profitable. I don't know the title or the price range you offer, but I suspect you are offering royalty share on a title the narrators feel are too low in sales rank (ebook) for them to make a profit quickly enough. I am only guessing, but I bet if you offer to pay up front you will get auditions by the bucket load.


Yep - pay up front and they will come


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## timothymckean (Dec 20, 2014)

JullesBurn said:


> Yep - pay up front and they will come


I'll reinforce what Karen and others have said about this. Taking a royalty share offer on ACX is HUGE risk to the narrator and ZERO risk to the author. The narrator will put in around 6 hours of work for every finished hour the book ends up being with no guarantee of payment. Unless you are a well established author with a history of reliable sales this is a scary venture.

As a result, the narrators that will audition for royalty share books will be those that are new and looking to grow their experience and portfolio, and those that work at this part time and this is "extra" income for them outside of their day job. You will not necessarily be attracting professional, full-time narrators that have spent thousands of $$ on recording gear, acoustically correct studio environments, and training and rely on this income to feed their families and pay the mortgage.

If you are able to pay a reasonable rate up front ($200 - $400 pfh), you will absolutely attract a better range of narrators to audition for your book, and it will be done faster and more reliably.


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