# The Audible Romance Pay Per Minute Rate for Q4 2017 is $0.0004778



## Becca Fanning (May 17, 2014)

Hopefully someone got crazy high volume to make that rate worthwhile, because I definitely did not.

Edit: This rate is for revenue split. Double it if you paid up front for narration.


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## AlexisR (Apr 3, 2015)

So... am I reading my agreement correctly that I can't un-enroll my included titles until the end of their Audible contract term (7 years)?


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## scarletlanternpub (Feb 21, 2016)

Not only is the rate absolutely terrible, but it is drastically hurting my normal sales. This is ten times worse than kindle unlimited (where a novel length read through is "roughly" equal to a sale). I didn't expect to be rolling in money, but this is far worse than even my worst expectations.


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## S. C. (Jul 21, 2017)

If that rate is right (I am not in the program so can't verify), then that is equivalent to $0.57336 per finished hour.  Not very good.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

the question--and I'm just posing it, I'm not saying it's so--is: are these extra listens, or are they replacement listens? Did you (the collective you) lose money this month because sales were replaced by audible romance listens? Or is this a few pennies on top of what you would have earned anyway, more or less?


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## Rachelle Ayala (Nov 15, 2011)

S. C. said:


> If that rate is right (I am not in the program so can't verify), then that is equivalent to $0.57336 per finished hour. Not very good.


Actually, you missed a decimal. it is $0.056 per finished hour, or a nickel an hour and it bites.


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## scarletlanternpub (Feb 21, 2016)

GeneDoucette said:


> the question--and I'm just posing it, I'm not saying it's so--is: are these extra listens, or are they replacement listens? Did you (the collective you) lose money this month because sales were replaced by audible romance listens? Or is this a few pennies on top of what you would have earned anyway, more or less?


My sales seem significantly worse since I've enrolled. Granted I only have a handful of books out there so small sample size.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

GeneDoucette said:


> the question--and I'm just posing it, I'm not saying it's so--is: are these extra listens, or are they replacement listens? Did you (the collective you) lose money this month because sales were replaced by audible romance listens? Or is this a few pennies on top of what you would have earned anyway, more or less?


For me, sales have plunged. From what I hear from other romance writers, it is YMMV. Many are reporting far worse sales, but some are fine. I certainly hope that as Audible keeps pushing this, the subscribers and the rate will rise, if they aren't propping it up with subsidies the way they seem to do with KU.


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## bobfrost (Sep 29, 2013)

.0004778 for split royalties
.0009556 if you did everything yourself.

A 13 hour book would be worth $0.3726 per full "read" at split narration, or $0.7453 at full value if you weren’t paying a narrator a cut.

How much the finished minutes are worth depends on how many times the book is listened to. At 1 full listen, it’s obviously shockingly low. As the number of listening minutes climb, so does the value of the finished minute...

If you were listed to fully 500 times, that would be $186 on split narration, or roughly $0.2385 per finished minute.

$0.4769 per minute for non split. $372

Still total trash.

At this page rate, the subscriber paying $15 per month is getting 15,697 minutes of audio per month even if we are talking about self narrated work with no splits. 

That's 523 minutes per day. 8.7 hours per day of audiobook content.


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## S. C. (Jul 21, 2017)

Rachelle Ayala said:


> Actually, you missed a decimal. it is $0.056 per finished hour, or a nickel an hour and it bites.


You are right, thanks. I guess if they go right to a low ball rate it's a good way to see how many more authors they can attract or repel. Rather than setting a good rate and lowering it later.

It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have that lock in for the rest of the 7-year term. That is what I call an onerous contract.


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## S. C. (Jul 21, 2017)

bobfrost said:


> .0004778 for split royalties
> .0009556 if you did everything yourself.
> 
> A 13 hour book would be worth $0.3726 per full "read" at split narration, or $0.7453 at full value if you weren't paying a narrator a cut.
> ...


This will decimate sales. I guess they want to destroy Kobo's new audio and Google Play's audio too. We are the ones that get burned in the middle.


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## Jill James (May 8, 2011)

I had 0 minutes read so I didn't know what the rate was. I had 2 actual sales which is just sad.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Boy, am I glad I've never done audiobooks.  Are narrators getting the same lousy pay rate?  If they are, why would any of them ever agree to do this work anymore?  The pay rate is 2.8 cents an hour.  If you worked a job at McDonald's for an hour, you'd at least get minimum wage.  

I don't think any author can make a reasonable payout even with high volume.  The rate is just too low.


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## scarletlanternpub (Feb 21, 2016)

Avis Black said:


> Boy, am I glad I've never done audiobooks. Are narrators getting the same lousy pay rate? If they are, why would any of them ever agree to do this work anymore? The pay rate is 2.8 cents an hour. If you worked a job at McDonald's for an hour, you'd at least get minimum wage.
> 
> I don't think any author can make a reasonable payout even with high volume. The rate is just too low.


This rate is just for the new audible romance package. Normal audible sales are a separate thing. This is kindla like Kindle Unlimited, but for audiobooks... just WAY worse.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

.


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## bobfrost (Sep 29, 2013)

A 13 hour book is probably 120,000 words in length (narrators tend to run about 9,300 words per finished hour).

That's a fairly long book. If we cut that back to a smaller novel the numbers get even worse. You'd need to have 1,000 people fully-listen to your audiobook to get the same kind of money I quoted above with a 60,000 word title.

It takes longer than an hour for a narrator to finish a complete hour of finalized ACX-quality narration. 

ACX themselves say this:

We have found that it generally takes a total of around 6.2 hours for a Producer to complete one hour of an Audiobook.

6.2 hours per finished hour... 

That's 80.6 hours for a 13 hour 120,000 word title, or 40.3 hours for a 6.5 hour 60,000 word book. 

500 full-listens @ 50% narrator split on a 13 hour book = $186 for the narrator... 

Federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. 80.6 hours of that is over $584

The narrator would be earning $2.31 per hour for this effort assuming they hit the success of 500 full listens on a 13 hour book.

You'd need 1,569 full listens of a 120,000 word book before your narrator would be taking home minimum wage for their time and effort... half that if you're self-narrating.

You'd need 1.22 million minutes listened to in order for your narrator to make minimum wage for their time on a royalty split 50/50 13 hour title.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> For me, sales have plunged. From what I hear from other romance writers, it is YMMV. Many are reporting far worse sales, but some are fine. I certainly hope that as Audible keeps pushing this, the subscribers and the rate will rise, if they aren't propping it up with subsidies the way they seem to do with KU.


I'm assuming your 'normal' (as much as there is such a thing) numbers are large enough to make a drop-off easy to identify and source back to the introduction of Audible Romance. The challenge with anything like this is attributing an income loss to a specific thing, especially in Audible, where the market for indies has been incredibly volatile for the past couple of years. But if you're seeing a drop, I'm inclined to believe the connection.

Also, I'm glad i don't write romance.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Yeah, the fact that once you enroll a title in the program you're locked in for the whole seven year term, not just to this program but any program they come up with going forward sucks. And is exploitative IMO. But so is the seven year term in general. (Very anti-competitive...)

I had no listens through the program for this period. My overall listens on my romance titles were up slightly due to a few free promos. I had enrolled in the program because I figured this program was going to knock out any other romance listens on ACX so at least this way I might be getting something for those titles. I'm wide with my audio and have consistently made 2x as much on wide as I do through ACX. But just a note for those considering wide, some of my wide payouts per title are this low, too, for full-length novels. I think they're subscription or library sales although I don't have the detail information to support that. But the numbers/payouts (higher numbers, lower payouts) are what make me think that.

I hadn't realized until this thread how much this screws any audio narrator who did royalty share and whose author chose to enroll in the program.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

bobfrost said:



> The narrator would be earning $2.31 per hour for this effort assuming they hit the success of 500 full listens on a 13 hour book.
> 
> You'd need 1,569 full listens of a 120,000 word book before your narrator would be taking home minimum wage for their time and effort... half that if you're self-narrating.
> 
> You'd need 1.22 million minutes listened to in order for your narrator to make minimum wage for their time on a royalty split 50/50 13 hour title.


And that's why many of us are going to stipulate that we won't narrate romance royalty share if the author is going to enroll it in the program.

Because yay. One more stupid thing to negotiate.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

At that payout rate they've essentially guaranteed that no one else will ever enroll in the program. Certainly not enough people to keep it viable for the customers.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Also, we’ve been told by ACX reps that you can leave the romance package by simply emailing or calling. Nothing will get their attention faster than a bunch of authors bailing on their program.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

GeneDoucette said:


> I'm assuming your 'normal' (as much as there is such a thing) numbers are large enough to make a drop-off easy to identify and source back to the introduction of Audible Romance. The challenge with anything like this is attributing an income loss to a specific thing, especially in Audible, where the market for indies has been incredibly volatile for the past couple of years. But if you're seeing a drop, I'm inclined to believe the connection.
> 
> Also, I'm glad i don't write romance.


Yeah, pretty obvious. I have had books in ACX for about four years, so I am pretty familiar with the sales curve. I emailed the person who invited me to join the program and asked her if I could get out of it for all but four books. We will see. I am proof listening to a book now that will cost almost $4,000, so I am concerned. I have no beef with Audible in general other than that I wish they would include my books in promos more (as do we all, probably), but this is pretty bad. I guessed wrong here.

I should have added: also, the change to WhisperSync. The fact that my ACX titles cost so much more and my Audible Studios and Brilliance titles are still 1.99 is a killer. Double whammy on ACX. I am wondering whether Audible actually wants indie published titles anymore. They may be trying to discourage them. It is hard to interpret this any other way.


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## scarletlanternpub (Feb 21, 2016)

JeffreyKafer said:


> Also, we've been told by ACX reps that you can leave the romance package by simply emailing or calling. Nothing will get their attention faster than a bunch of authors bailing on their program.


I hope that's the case. I just sent a rather angry email to support demanding my titles be removed.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

You can also leave ACX exclusivity before the 7 years with an email, with two caveats: 1- you didn't do royalty share, 2-you're okay with never being able to go back into exclusive, because they won't let you change your mind on this.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Yeah, pretty obvious. I have had books in ACX for about four years, so I am pretty familiar with the sales curve. I emailed the person who invited me to join the program and asked her if I could get out of it for all but four books. We will see. I am proof listening to a book now that will cost almost $4,000, so I am concerned. I have no beef with Audible in general other than that I wish they would include my books in promos more (as do we all, probably), but this is pretty bad. I guessed wrong here.
> 
> I should have added: also, the change to WhisperSync. The fact that my ACX titles cost so much more and my Audible Studios and Brilliance titles are still 1.99 is a killer. Double whammy on ACX. I am wondering whether Audible actually wants indie published titles anymore. They may be trying to discourage them. It is hard to interpret this any other way.


the whispersync change back in May 2017 was a huge thing for everyone, yes. At least it sounds like you aren't doing royalty share, which widens your options.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> For me, sales have plunged. From what I hear from other romance writers, it is YMMV. Many are reporting far worse sales, but some are fine. I certainly hope that as Audible keeps pushing this, the subscribers and the rate will rise, if they aren't propping it up with subsidies the way they seem to do with KU.


This. My audio sales were decent and then plummetted. I don't even really know how to market audio...seems out of my control in a way.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Does Amazon seriously expect authors to sign up to this bs at this rate?

I have a boxset that is 19 hours 24 minutes. I paid my narrator upfront. A full listen under this program would earn me $1.11.

Currently that boxset earns $5.49 average per sale. 

I'd take an 80% cut in pay to enroll in this program? Are they crazy?

My audiobooks will earn around $36K this year. Amazon would prefer I made $7200 or so I guess.

This completely and utterly breaks the economic sums on making audiobooks. I know I can spend $400 per finished hour because my books will earn enough over a year to recoup my investment.

At this rate we're talking multiple years - four or five at least JUST TO BREAK EVEN!

C'mon GooglePlay and Apple - come out with a FAIR subscription program and I'll put my next audiobook series in it!


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

I have two books in the Romance Package. Both had a lot of minutes listened to. I got .73c for my near 13-hour audiobook for a full listen and .57c on the shorter one. I did make money but not even close to what I was expecting. Thankfully I pay upfront so I don't have to feel bad for my narrator. I plan to stay in for the time being to see if they can find a solution to this train wreck but I will absolutely not add my other two books into the program. With authors no longer trusting acx and attempting to pull their audiobooks out of the program combined with no new material going in, I see no way for the Romance Package to survive.


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## morrighansmuse (Mar 27, 2016)

I had zero listens since I just enrolled my books. I held back on my RS one until my narrator told me this week that it would be a good program and so I did. Oh well... I just hope I can still get my books out since I just added them and so far, they haven't been selected.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

jmb3 said:


> With authors no longer trusting acx and attempting to pull their audiobooks out of the program combined with no new material going in, I see no way for the Romance Package to survive.


This exactly. Even if ACX is hard-nosed about making people stay in, they won't get new content. And romance listeners are voracious listeners. They won't stand for old content.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

........ said:


> C'mon GooglePlay and Apple - come out with a FAIR subscription program and I'll put my next audiobook series in it!


They _can't_. The only reason KU works is because Amazon doesn't care if it makes a profit. They subsidize program losses through profitable divisions like AWS because the KU customers shop in the other parts of the Amazon store and buy TVs and tennis shoes. Google and Apple don't have megastores, and their user base is mostly made up of people who buy their phones/computers/etc. There's no reason for them to run their book operations (whether ebook or audio) at a loss to attract new customers. Even if they wanted to, the margins on most of the other products they sell in their stores are too low to justify it.

For a subscription service to work you have to either a) severely limit subscriptions to the point where they're only marginally attractive to customers, b) cut the payout to the content producer to nothing like Audible did here or c) subsidize payments from an outside source. Oyster and Scribd did the latter using venture capitalist money to prop them up. Oyster's ran out and they went belly up. Scribd kept going but only because they cut back on the number of books you could borrow and massively reduced their inventory of the genres readers tend to consume the fastest like romance, plus a huge chunk of their paying customers are there for the document repository and not to read ebooks. Playster just announced in December that they're doubling their subscription fees to $29.95. This is _not_ a successful business model for books.

At some point without BIG subsidies either the customer decides that the subscription costs more than it's worth or the content producers yank all of their content from the program and go back to selling their work.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

I hate to sound stupid, but where are you folks seeing these numbers? Two of my books are enrolled in the Romance Package, but my ACX dashboard doesn't show anything other than a few sales for this month. Does that mean I had zero minutes listened to, or am I looking in the wrong place?


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Look at the actual royalty statement you got today.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

LadyG said:


> I hate to sound stupid, but where are you folks seeing these numbers? Two of my books are enrolled in the Romance Package, but my ACX dashboard doesn't show anything other than a few sales for this month. Does that mean I had zero minutes listened to, or am I looking in the wrong place?


If you scroll all the way to the bottom of your summary report, you see the book/s you have in the romance package and the minutes it was listened to. If it was a piece of paper, it would be a separate piece.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Is this the "digital on demand royalty"? If so, it's peanuts. It's laughable. But I can't see any minutes...

Ok. Finally figured out that:

1. My books are enrolled after all and
2. This program sucks the big one and 
3. I will be writing to ask to be taken out of the program ASAP.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

I just emailed to request that my books be un-enrolled and gave my reasons. Not sure it will be successful but it's totally a ridiculous program at the payout rate.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

S. C. said:


> This will decimate sales. I guess they want to destroy Kobo's new audio and Google Play's audio too. We are the ones that get burned in the middle.


Yup. And you know what? IT WILL WORK as long as people enroll with them despite the shit rates and no indication they plan to do better. So if you don't want that to happen, you know what you have to do to stop it? Don't participate. Tell your friends and colleagues not to participate. Don't just complain. Make the change.



Huldra said:


> Meanwhile, on Findaway...


THIS.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> They _can't_. The only reason KU works is because Amazon doesn't care if it makes a profit. They subsidize program losses through profitable divisions like AWS because the KU customers shop in the other parts of the Amazon store and buy TVs and tennis shoes. Google and Apple don't have megastores, and their user base is mostly made up of people who buy their phones/computers/etc. There's no reason for them to run their book operations (whether ebook or audio) at a loss to attract new customers. Even if they wanted to, the margins on most of the other products they sell in their stores are too low to justify it.
> 
> For a subscription service to work you have to either a) severely limit subscriptions to the point where they're only marginally attractive to customers, b) cut the payout to the content producer to nothing like Audible did here or c) subsidize payments from an outside source. Oyster and Scribd did the latter using venture capitalist money to prop them up. Oyster's ran out and they went belly up. Scribd kept going but only because they cut back on the number of books you could borrow and massively reduced their inventory of the genres readers tend to consume the fastest like romance, plus a huge chunk of their paying customers are there for the document repository and not to read ebooks. Playster just announced in December that they're doubling their subscription fees to $29.95. This is _not_ a successful business model for books.
> 
> At some point without BIG subsidies either the customer decides that the subscription costs more than it's worth or the content producers yank all of their content from the program and go back to selling their work.


Netflix has 117 million customers worldwide. Even on the $9.99 plan that's over a BILLION dollars in revenue a month coming in.

How many KU subscribers are there? Five million? Twenty? We'll never know. Even if it's five million then Amazon has fifty million a month in subscriber income to play with.

And ebooks aren't movies and tv shows like Netflix is contending with. eBooks are tiny in comparison. Far less infrastructure required.

The model that works is to take the monthly subscriber income, slice off X for the authors and keep Y for costs and profit.

Google and Apple can easily run profitable subscription programs. The eBook file sizes are tiny, they already have websites up and running - all they need to do is add that borrow button. They already track where you read to.

Subscription programs fail when they promise a set amount per borrow. But the payment per page model can remain profitable because the more subscribers you have, the more the income increases. The more pages they read, the pool just gets diluted more. They always take their 30% or whatever.

Ten million KU subscribers handing over $100 million a month to Amazon. They're having us compete over a tiny slice of that...

Oyster, etc, went down because they were promising fixed payouts. Divide by pool and you can't run out of money so long as your costs are handled.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

This is outrageous. I don't blame authors for pulling out. Hopefully Amazon will make changes, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that :-(


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## KylieG (Oct 30, 2015)

I can't say it was a total loss. I made one cent total for my two books in the program.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2018)

KylieG said:


> I can't say it was a total loss. I made one cent total for my two books in the program.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

........ said:


> Netflix has 117 million customers worldwide. Even on the $9.99 plan that's over a BILLION dollars in revenue a month coming in.


The subscription model for ebooks and a service like Netflix aren't exactly the same. Netflix gains access to content by paying a licensing fee to the owner. Programs for ebooks and audio books pay for unit consumed. Netflix will also drop unpopular content, that doesn't earn it's keep. I'm not sure how many authors would be willing to accept a flat fee for unlimited access to their work.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Anyone want to fill me in on what this is all about?

I was under the impression there were 2 options

1. paying a narrator upfront
2. splitting the 40% with a narrator. So they get 20% you get 20%. 

What's all this griping about pay per minute rate? Is this for authors or narrators?


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

JeffreyKafer said:


> Look at the actual royalty statement you got today.


So, I enrolled both my audiobooks, and can't find a royality report for February yet. I'm guessing, it doesn't show up if you didn't earn anything? Or are you all in another time zone where it is already March 1? It's still Feb. 28 here, and I don't see anything for February yet on my dashboard. Is this a sign of "no sales" or just that Feb. isn't over for me yet?

**Just to note, I tried out the program to get more exposure with the Romance listeners. I have pretty much noticed no sales for 3 months. In fact, I had a -1 sale, maybe from someone returning a book that joined the program. Not sure until I get my Feb. report.

Not looking good to stay in this program, though, I want to check my report first before I pull my audiobooks. 
OH, and I paid my narrator a flat fee. SO, only I'm getting screwed on the program.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

lyndabelle said:


> So, I enrolled both my audiobooks, and can't find a royality report for February yet. I'm guessing, it doesn't show up if you didn't earn anything? Or are you all in another time zone where it is already March 1? It's still Feb. 28 here, and I don't see anything for February yet on my dashboard. Is this a sign of "no sales" or just that Feb. isn't over for me yet?
> 
> **Just to note, I tried out the program to get more exposure with the Romance listeners. I have pretty much noticed no sales for 3 months. In fact, I had a -1 sale, maybe from someone returning a book that joined the program. Not sure until I get my Feb. report.
> 
> ...


They're talking about the January royalty statement. The february statement won't arrive until the end of March.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

lilywhite said:


> Yup. And you know what? IT WILL WORK as long as people enroll with them despite the [crap] rates and no indication they plan to do better. So if you don't want that to happen, you know what you have to do to stop it? Don't participate. Tell your friends and colleagues not to participate. Don't just complain. Make the change.
> 
> THIS.


Exactly. And if history tells us anything, it's that they will NEVER do better for us. History clearly shows that Amazon will nickel and dime us in as many ways as they can think of, until people WISH it were like the good old days.

Pretty sure this is the moment where EVERYONE should be demanding their books are withdrawn from the program, and sending a clear message to Amazon that Creators Don't Work For Free Just So Amazon Can Profit.

It's a disgusting abuse of people's trust, and a clear indication of where things are headed if Amazon are allowed to keep their near monopoly on everything.


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2018)

It's time for a career change.

Become a narrator who gets paid up front.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Looks like enough people complained that they're now doing some version of all-star bonuses for "early adopters". Doesn't impact me since I had no listens, but for those of you who did...at least it's something.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Just got this email from ACX:

In the short time since the launch of Audible Romance in November 2017, we have been focused on growing the audience for authors and actors whose works are included in the package. We created the offering to increase the reach and audience of romance audiobooks by bringing the works of authors and narrators to romance fans in an innovative, all-you-can-listen model that meets the needs of their voracious consumption patterns. We are happy to announce that in the first few months of the offering, customers are listening to content included in the Romance Package at rates that exceeded our initial projections. However, this has affected royalty payments in unintended ways.

To celebrate and thank participants in the early days of the first-ever all-you-can-listen service dedicated to romance audio, we are offering an early adopter bonus on top of Q4 2017 royalty earnings of the Package. *Bonuses will be allocated based on how much customers listened to your titles, and we will be distributing these bonuses within the next few days.* We anticipate that as the program grows, royalties from the Package will reflect an additional revenue stream on top of unit sales. We are also examining the Romance Package based on current and projected listener behaviors to ensure we grow a sustainable offering that supports authors, narrators and romance fans alike. We remain focused on continuing to attract listeners with a pioneering new service that revolutionizes romance audiobook consumption.

***

(Bold is mine)

So, I read this as they are trying to bribe those with the biggest losses to stick with them, and possibly adding something to everyone's earnings.


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## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

David VanDyke said:


> Just got this email from ACX:
> 
> In the short time since the launch of Audible Romance in November 2017, we have been focused on growing the audience for authors and actors whose works are included in the package. We created the offering to increase the reach and audience of romance audiobooks by bringing the works of authors and narrators to romance fans in an innovative, all-you-can-listen model that meets the needs of their voracious consumption patterns. We are happy to announce that in the first few months of the offering, customers are listening to content included in the Romance Package at rates that exceeded our initial projections. However, this has affected royalty payments in unintended ways.
> 
> ...


I was totally reading it as maybe they've gotten a lot of people upset about the payout, and they are trying to sweeten the deal. Since I finally got my February statement saying I had no sales which meant no listens for the group, it doesn't seem to affect me. So, not really sure if I want to continue anyway. Unless things get better next month, it might be worth pulling out.

**They need to make more a benefit for being in it I would think.


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## S. C. (Jul 21, 2017)

There is a petition started about the romance package terms and rate for authors and narrators to read and sign if you are interested:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PZ9CyjwRtJ1SKiLclQBEqmT3fVxBP3BEktrSbOM7Pgk/edit


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

Unless I missed something, I didn't see the text of any actual petition. I saw only a list of names. Is the actual petition going to be added later?

Instead, why not petition to drop all subscription models? Or why not simply pull all your books out and refuse to enroll them in any subscription model package? 

Judging by the haste with which Zon reacted, we the authors have the power. If we all simply refuse to enter our works into any subscription model, what can Zon do? Sure, a few authors will still enroll but if there's unity among the vast majority of us, Zon simply cannot make this model work with only a few entries.

Power to the authors. Which is where it belongs.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

okey dokey said:


> It's time for a career change.
> 
> Become a narrator who gets paid up front.


Pretty much. But then, the model has always been, "Everyone deserves to be paid fairly for a book except the author." You don't see editors, cover artists, the guys who run the press, etc, waiting to be paid based on copies sold. Only the author gets that privilege.


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## RomanceAuthor (Aug 18, 2014)

Huldra said:


> Meanwhile, on Findaway...


what about findaway?


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

RomanceAuthor said:


> what about findaway?


They're a fantastic alternative to the ACX/Audible BS.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

lilywhite said:


> They're a fantastic alternative to the ACX/Audible BS.


They're also an easy way to go wide in audio. I suspect Amazon/Audible/Apple together are the vast bulk of the audio market, but Findaway is a painless way to reach lots of other distributors. Of course, to use them, you'd have to distribute to the 3 As nonexclusively, and naturally Findaway does get a cut, so that alternative won't be for everyone.

The narrator model is very different. In ACX, you put up your project and try to connect with a narrator yourself. Findaway connects you with narrators, arranges auditions for those you want to audition, etc. that's great for someone like me (who had a project sitting on ACX for a long time with no takers). It may not be as important for someone with books that sell really well (and are thus good candidates for royalty share). Findaway narrators all work on a fee basis.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Dragovian said:


> Pretty much. But then, the model has always been, "Everyone deserves to be paid fairly for a book except the author." You don't see editors, cover artists, the guys who run the press, etc, waiting to be paid based on copies sold. Only the author gets that privilege.


On the other hand, generally only the author (as an individual) gets the chance to win the lottery if the book catches fire.

However, we all know that lottery profits are mostly built on hope, not actual winnings. And, the publisher never has any downside (unless the thing flops so badly they don't even get a positive ROI).


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## S. C. (Jul 21, 2017)

Vidya said:


> Unless I missed something, I didn't see the text of any actual petition. I saw only a list of names. Is the actual petition going to be added later?
> 
> Instead, why not petition to drop all subscription models? Or why not simply pull all your books out and refuse to enroll them in any subscription model package?
> 
> ...


That's weird. I see the letter when I click on the link. As for what the petition is requesting, it's not my petition. I am just passing it on. You could start your own petition if you want to protest against all subscription models.

I agree that a united stand among authors will make a difference. That said, I think subscription models are here to stay. What is needed is a transparent contract, not a black hole where we aren't given the details of the calculation. We know we make from 35%-70% from a sale. We have no idea what the % of the pot we are getting in this Audible romance package. For that matter, we also don't know what % we are getting as page reads from Kindle Unlimited after Amazon takes their cut.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Just tried calling to find a way to pull out of the Romance program. They are closed for support on Sunday. So, had to send an email. I'll let you all know what happens. Really disappointed with how this program has been. I think it's killing my sales, and I've seen no minutes listened. So, I just hope I can get my audiobooks out of it.


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

S. C. said:


> I agree that a united stand among authors will make a difference. That said, I think subscription models are here to stay.


If authors stand united, subscription models cannot stay. No matter how often Zon offers them, if writers simply refuse to put their works in, how can any such model survive? They need OUR works enrolled in them to survive. We don't have to accept it as inevitable or a matter of course that subscription models are here to stay. It's totally in the hands of the content creators.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Vidya said:


> If authors stand united, subscription models cannot stay. No matter how often Zon offers them, if writers simply refuse to put their works in, how can any such model survive? They need OUR works enrolled in them to survive. We don't have to accept it as inevitable or a matter of course that subscription models are here to stay. It's totally in the hands of the content creators.


I wonder if the smart move might not be to put book 1 of series into the sub, rather like permafree, and make them buy the rest if they want them.


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

David VanDyke said:


> I wonder if the smart move might not be to put book 1 of series into the sub, rather like permafree, and make them buy the rest if they want them.


I expect once every writer made the same move, readers would also make the smart move of listening to only the first in every series and not paying for the rest. Audio is far more expensive than e-books, so why wouldn't they simply sample the "free" stuff?


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## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

Was there any kind of inkling from Audible what sort of payments might be expected by authors? Did it promise more - or anything at all? Just curious... it seems an absurd ROI for authors. Who would ever sign up for this?


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

The only way for this program to get fresh material under its current conditions is if Audible produces more romance audiobooks and adds them into the program. I suppose they could pick up entire series and produced them all. I don't believe the author has a choice on whether to join the Romance Package or not if Audible is producing their audiobooks. Same goes for other studio produced audiobooks that Audible may have an agreement with. It's the indie authors who will not be adding more books to the program, and that's a good chunk of the audiobooks in there. I actually did make money in the Romance Package but only a fraction of what I was expecting seeing as both of mine were heavily listened to in the program. I won't be adding my other two. 

And to answer the question why anyone would sign up for this in the first place - we thought it was going to the next big thing. ACX called me months before the program started and asked to add my books. The details were very iffy back then as they were still working out all the details but basically, it was being marketed as KU for audiobooks. At the time, they could not say what we'd get paid, only that it would be per minute listened to. We romance authors were being asked to take a leap of faith... and we did, in droves.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

And then I signed up because all the big names had already signed up for it and I figured pennies were better than nothing because the program was going to destroy paid romance audiobook sales.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Vidya said:


> I expect once every writer made the same move, readers would also make the smart move of listening to only the first in every series and not paying for the rest. Audio is far more expensive than e-books, so why wouldn't they simply sample the "free" stuff?


For the same reason people don't ONLY read free books. If the free book is good enough, and they want them, people will pay for the rest.

Why do people pay $5 for a Starbucks when they won't pay $5 for an ebook? Because, in that moment, they crave the coffee.

Best to always look at people's actual behavior, rather than to expect theoretical rationality.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

You have to sign your Audible Studios books up. The author gets a choice. 

I do not believe the skip to the good parts thing has had an impact. That is simply marketing, giving you snippets so you can decide whether you want to listen. They are not just about sex, and they are very short. As a huge audio listener from way back, no listener is just going to listen to a few paragraphs. Unless of course the snippets are unappealing to them. They are basically like the Look Inside on an Amazon paperback. 

The problem is not number of minutes listened to from what I have seen. Plenty of people have a great many minutes. The problem is the rate. And no it is not like KU. The same book that earns me 3.50 a read in KU earns me about 80 cents in this. Since it cost me $5k to produce, that does not really work on an ongoing basis. I do wonder however if Audible basically thinks that with a few exceptions, they do not really want ACX content anymore. I can see many if not most royalty share narrators dumping that (most of the higher end ones did already when audio went to flat 40% royalties instead of 50-85. Not enough upside potential.) I cannot imagine a narrator with any experience or standing agreeing to such a payment arrangement now unless the author were truly gigantic. (In which case the author would not be doing royalty share anyway.)


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

“I figured pennies were better than nothing”

Zon counts on us thinking this way. the day we stop thinking this way is the day Zon loses its hold over us and we get back the power as the content creators, which is exactly where the power should lie.

“the program was going to destroy paid romance audiobook sales.”

the program can't destroy paid romance audiobook sales if few authors put their books in the program. There can be no program without the content we provide.


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## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

After flip-flopping over whether to put my sole romance audiobook in this thing, reading this thread has helped me decide.

Hell no.


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## scarletlanternpub (Feb 21, 2016)

Has anyone heard/seen anything about these supposed bonuses yet? My email to ACX to remove my books from the romance package has also gone unanswered so far.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

scarletlanternpub said:


> Has anyone heard/seen anything about these supposed bonuses yet? My email to ACX to remove my books from the romance package has also gone unanswered so far.


Mine too. It was positive to see the addition to the pot of payouts, but I'm guessing, you had to get a decent amount of minutes listened to qualify.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't think anybody has heard any bonus info yet. And the word I got from on high is that no, authors will not be allowed to remove any books. Unfortunately.


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## scarletlanternpub (Feb 21, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I don't think anybody has heard any bonus info yet. And the word I got from on high is that no, authors will not be allowed to remove any books. Unfortunately.


Ugh, well no more books of mine will be going into this program.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I don't think anybody has heard any bonus info yet. And the word I got from on high is that no, authors will not be allowed to remove any books. Unfortunately.


But, of course, Audible can remove your book at any time for whatever reason. As usual, Amazon/Audible holds all the cards.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I don't think anybody has heard any bonus info yet. And the word I got from on high is that no, authors will not be allowed to remove any books. Unfortunately.


I'm trying not to have a conniption fit here. Why WHY WHY WHY did I sign up for this? I got $15 and change from the program! I'm so disgusted at myself and at ACX. This is unconscionable not to let us out. No one in their right mind would have accepted this rate.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

TwistedTales said:


> I'm not in audible or romance so none of this affects me, but I'm really confused as to Amazon's strategy. They've managed to lock up I think it's 10,000 romance books into this program, but given how it's playing out, surely the more experienced authors will never sign up another book. So, did they do this just to lock up 10,000 indie romance books? How do they intend to attract new content? Are they assuming you'll all get over it and think a little something is better than nothing? And even if authors do think that, when it comes to audio the cost of production is high, not to mention the narrators won't like this either. How is anyone supposed to earn back their investment, much less make profit?
> 
> I don't understand what Amazon expect to happen next.


Probably run a contest offering publication to the winner, but ya gotta put your book into Audible to enter.


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## Allyson J. (Nov 26, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> I'm not in audible or romance so none of this affects me, but I'm really confused as to Amazon's strategy. They've managed to lock up I think it's 10,000 romance books into this program, but given how it's playing out, surely the more experienced authors will never sign up another book. So, did they do this just to lock up 10,000 indie romance books? How do they intend to attract new content? Are they assuming you'll all get over it and think a little something is better than nothing? And even if authors do think that, when it comes to audio the cost of production is high, not to mention the narrators won't like this either. How is anyone supposed to earn back their investment, much less make profit?
> 
> I don't understand what Amazon expect to happen next.


Agreed. This is disastrous from every angle. It sucks for authors, who won't be putting any more work into the program. It sucks for narrators, who won't agree to royalty share because of the program. And it must suck for Amazon/Audible, because readers will burn through 10k books, get bored, and cancel the subscription.

I am humiliated for putting a series into this program.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Yes, that's the last audiobook I put into the program.


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## Rachelle Ayala (Nov 15, 2011)

A note about the bonuses was sent, but no amount was posted. Just expect to receive it in the same account you receive regular royalty distributions [like that is so important]. And it is relative to how much customers listened to each title.


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## TheLass (Mar 13, 2016)

I just don't understand how anyone could have signed up for this in the first place.
A 7 year contract, no way to terminate early, no idea what the rates will be. *7 Years?!*


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Check your bank accounts. I received my “bonus.” It was $140. I only made $5 in the program (some of my stuff only went live at the tail end of the quarter). It’s more than I thought they would dole out and nowhere near enough.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2018)

If Amazon won't LET YOU OUT of the deal, then
what Terms of Service can you violate so Amazon will KICK YOU OUT

That might be the way to go


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

I got $25 and I had no minutes for the period.


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

“If Amazon won't LET YOU OUT of the deal, then what Terms of Service can you violate so Amazon will KICK YOU OUT”

I would assume one way would be to post the same audiobook on various different sites.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Payment hits banks this morning. I got a bonus over 5 times the original amount, which adds up to a fairly nice payment and appears to be what they are giving. Problem of it being a bonus, of course, but it does seem to signify that they're serious. I don't know how they thought people wouldn't be stunned originally, though. 

As to why people put books in it--because if Amazon is doing something anyway that will greatly affect the landscape, you need to choose to be in, or to lose out. Most people put backlist in. Some authors have said their audio sales have remained steady since the subscription plan started (whether they had books in it or not), but many people's audio sales dropped way off, especially of backlist. That has been true for me. (It's not 7 years BTW, it's remainder of contract. That could be more like 3 years or less for folks like me with older audio. It would be 7 years if you put in frontlist, however.)

This payment does help, as I just wrote a check yesterday for almost $4,000 for my latest ACX book, and I had been wondering whether to go ahead with the contract for the next one. Now I'll probably gamble again and do it.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

The more I read this thread, the more I realize how big time a bullet I dodged. It's honestly sickening that the value of creative work is being trashed on like this. Maybe I'm going too far in stating that Amazon doesn't understand or much less care about how hard authors work. I will avoid subscription programs at all cost from now on.

To our fellow authors stuck in this mess: I'm so sorry! I hope there is a way out of the program for your titles but at least for now you can refuse to put more in.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I read the contract very carefully and knew exactly what I was getting into with this program.
> 
> *My books are not well known and these particular sweet romances were languishing in ACX, despite my best attempts to promote them on social media. I thought it would be a good way to get more exposure for the books and maybe get something back for my narrators, who had agreed to do a royalty split.*
> 
> I also plan to put my first books in each series into the program. If listeners like them, they can buy the next ones or read them in ebook or paperback.


I apologize for the double post but I'm too lazy to go back and edit my previous post. 

Lorri's comment in bold is the reason why audiobooks are starting to look more like a hassle to this author. I feel terrible that my titles are not making money in ACX and that the narrators basically worked for free. I have no idea what to do about this except to keep writing and marketing. It seems unfair that no only are authors getting screwed, but narrators too and their equipment is expensive! Anyway, this discussion is giving light to some serious issues in our business.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Many narrators already would not do royalty share, since Audible changed the contract terms. (Used to be up to 85% royalty. I have five books under those terms. Big difference between a 65% royalty and a 40% one.) Now there is much less upside potential. Although the bonus-included payout was quite good and about what I would have expected, I would guess that many more narrators will get out of royalty share entirely. 

The narrator really matters. If you cannot get a great one, I would not do audio.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

Did the narrators get a matching bonus?


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## GoneToWriterSanctum (Sep 13, 2014)

I don't consent


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

loraininflorida said:


> Did the narrators get a matching bonus?


If you're on royalty share, the bonus would be split in half.


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## KylieG (Oct 30, 2015)

Cassie Leigh said:


> I got $25 and I had no minutes for the period.


Yes, I made one cent from two books and got a $25 bonus.


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## Nate Hoffelder (Jun 9, 2014)

Hey everyone, I am working on a follow up post on this story.

Has anyone gotten a response from Audible?

I've only gotten the silent treatment; what about you?


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## Nate Hoffelder (Jun 9, 2014)

the reason i ask whether Audible has contacted you is that I have heard nothing, and yet Audible made this claim over on Facebook just a couple days ago:

"We are in touch with participating authors and rights holders in the Romance Package with updates and information. To preserve this Facebook Group as a place for our listeners, we will not be sharing those business conversations here, but ask that authors, narrators and rights holders contact their business representative. Thank you!"

I am trying to find out if that is true or not.


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

Does anyone know if the payout rate for Audible Romance was ever adjusted? Or did they find some other method for enticing authors into the program?


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

I went back to the first payout and in Jan 2018 they had a consumption rate of 0.002252. In Oct 2018, the latest payout had a consumption rate of 0.003900. I suck at math so I'm not sure how the per minute rate is factored but it's still not a lot. I'm one of the early adopters so I get a bonus on top of the quarterly payout but I don't think that's offered to anyone coming into the program now (and have no idea how long the bonuses will last). The good news is Audible is still very committed to the program and authors are still adding their audiobooks because, like KU, it gives listeners a chance to discover new authors. Plus, Audible is producing more titles in their studios and offering Audible Originals even to indies now (I have one coming on the 15th). The big downside I see to the Romance Package, aside from the low pay, is that it's conditioning some listeners to expect their audiobooks to be 'free' and they get frustrated when an author only puts a couple of audiobooks from the series in and leaves the rest out to be purchased with a credit.


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

jmb3 said:


> I went back to the first payout and in Jan 2018 they had a consumption rate of 0.002252. In Oct 2018, the latest payout had a consumption rate of 0.003900.


If the rate is indeed 0.0039 per minute, the math adds up like this: .0039 x 60 minutes x 13 hours (just a guess at an average book) and the total is $3.04 - which sounds alright to me. I get 1/4 (Narrator split) of $17.95, which equals $4.49 per book. If i sold approximately twice as many books (as I did with KU reads), then I'd feel like I was earning $6.08 instead of $4.49 - so an increase in revenue of about 25%.


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## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

Okay, so the consumption rate is not per minute. I have no idea what it is exactly but I had my husband do the calculations with just the minutes and amount earned. 

In Jan2018 I had 1,669,161 minutes listened and earned $966. That is .00057 x 60 x 12 = .41c earned for a 12-hour audiobook. 
In Oct2018 I had 1,787,627 minutes listened and earned $2788. That is .00156 x 60 x 12 = $1.12 earned for 12-hour audiobook. 

So, it's getting better but nowhere near KU levels. 

That being said, I calculated the rate I get when the bonus is factored in and these numbers are awesome. Hopefully, one day they will get to this level without having to add the bonus (only early adopters get this extra bonus). 

Jan 2018 it was - .0057  $4.10 per audiobook
Oct 2018 it was - .0061  $4.39 per audiobook


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