# Possible heads up? Amazon cracking down on rear TOC?



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

A potential heads up. An author friend of mine had their book taken down and the infamous content warning put on their page because, as Amazon put it:

"The HTML Table of Contents is present in the back of the content.  Please provide the Table of Contents at the beginning of the book as per Section 3.3.6 in the Amazon Kindle Publishing Guidelines.  You can see this issue at location 592."

Wondering if this is another case of Amazon trying to swat a few flies by by using a rocket launcher.  Either way, it strikes me as a bit draconian, especially considering some popular software programs - like Calibre - default to a rear TOC.


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

I've noticed that the KDP guidelines have gone from requiring an HTML TOC to simply suggesting one, so I imagine a lot of people will just leave them off. I would not be surprised if many rear TOCs were only there to meet spec.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

That's a bit scary if it's true. I'm all for cracking down but this seems a bit harsh.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Yes, I was talking to this same author about it this morning and she said she got no warning email, no nothing, just straight to pulling down the book. She writes short serial romance, and has her TOC in the back so the Look Inside isn't mostly TOC.

As usual a few bad apples spoil it for everyone, and Amazon gets out the sledgehammer instead of the scalpel.

One of the only times being lazy has benefitted me--I was going to move the TOC on my short serial stuff, for the same reason (which seemed quite sound to me) but hadn't gotten around to it.


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## Fishbowl Helmet (Jan 12, 2014)

I wonder if Amazon is going after just the self-published authors or mid-listers because it's fairly common for the Big Five/Six to have their TOCs listed at the back. One rather well-known mystery writer has all his TOCs at the back. Wonder if Amazon is going to pull his content till it's "fixed."


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

It's a little odd that Amazon doesn't start Look Inside at the book's start position.


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

Okay, I must be missing something. All my TOC are at the front (thank goodness), but why does Amazon care as long as there is a TOC? Is this something scammers are using in a new fraudulent way?

Edit: yep, scammers causing trouble for everyone else. check.   ::sigh::


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

lilywhite said:


> As usual a few bad apples spoil it for everyone, and Amazon gets out the sledgehammer instead of the scalpel.


Exactly. I can't stand the people doing the "CLICK HERE FOR A SPECIAL MESSAGE SO I GET PAID" crap. However, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to bounce someone around in a book - a legit TOC link, end notes, something written in a "choose your own ending" format. Problem is, I guess it's really hard to automatically purge the bad without hitting the good too. Would require tons of labor to do it manually as well.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Exactly. I can't stand the people doing the "CLICK HERE FOR A SPECIAL MESSAGE SO I GET PAID" crap. However, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to bounce someone around in a book - a legit TOC link, end notes, something written in a "choose your own ending" format. Problem is, I guess it's really hard to automatically purge the bad without hitting the good too. Would require tons of labor to do it manually as well.


Yeah. :\ I wish it was possible to have human eyes give at least a cursory glance on upload, to look for a few "scammer flags."



T76 said:


> Maybe, Amazon have been hearing about scammers using TOC at the end of the book to maximise page reads in Unlimited, and the only way to crack down on them is to stop everyone doing it.


I think this is definitely it, but a warning would have been warranted, IMO. Especially for short serial stuff that's, like, 80 KENPC at best. Those are NOT the scammers that are causing the darn problems.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I recently looked at a non-fiction book which had a TOC, Author's Note, Editor's Note, and timeline. In total, this content was the entirety of the free sample. There's a reason why authors place this info at the back of the book. When I'm looking for a sample, I'm looking to see if I will like the content of the book. I'm not looking to read the author's note.


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## AlexaGrave (Jun 11, 2015)

Well, this sucks. I've been placing my (rather short) ToCs at the back for my short stories. Like others have mentioned, in a shorter work if the ToC is up front there will hardly anything to sample! I'm guessing if I move it up front for at least 1 or 2 of my stories, they may get like only a paragraph of actual story sample.

Scammers got to ruin things for everyone.  

Guess I'll mark that as a "to be fixed" when I do an update of my Other Works By sections later in the year and hope they don't get on my case before then. Sigh.

Funny thing is if they don't want it in the back, how does it get through the initial approval? It's too late to change my current pre-order, but I guess going forward I should put the ToC in the front.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Amazon could solve the problem for legit authors by allowing us to specify the percentage of the book's content to show in the Look Inside/sample. There's no reason it should be the same for every book.


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## Jane Killick (Aug 29, 2014)

Amazon TOS wants TOC in front? It's been a long time since I've read those 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

It's unfortunate Amazon is going heavy-handed on the TOC placement, but I'm not surprised.  

For those of you with short fiction who are worried about the Look Inside, you can request KDP to lengthen the Look Inside. I did it for several of my short stories. Then there's no reason to move the TOC to the back at all.

Hope that helps! 

Rue


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2016)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I recently looked at a non-fiction book which had a TOC, Author's Note, Editor's Note, and timeline. In total, this content was the entirety of the free sample. There's a reason why authors place this info at the back of the book. When I'm looking for a sample, I'm looking to see if I will like the content of the book. I'm not looking to read the author's note.


If your book is so short that having the TOC at the front negatively impacts the preview sample, the work is too short to need a TOC. The purpose of a TOC is to help a reader navigate a longer work. If the work is so short that the TOC is going to hurt the preview, the work doesn't need a TOC.

That said, non-fiction is notorious for front-loading too much nonsense. I was judging books for the Ben Franklin awards and one of the titles had almost THIRTY PAGES of front matter before it actually got to the book! TOC, author notes, blurbs from other authors, reproducing reviews from Goodreads...just pages and pages of WTF?


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Only thing I can think of is the author had a link at the beginning leading to the TOC in the back. I can see that getting taken down, especially if reported by someone. If it's just a straight-up TOC in the back with no link leading to it, that's troubling. I'm still guessing it was reported.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Domino Finn said:


> Only thing I can think of is the author had a link at the beginning leading to the TOC in the back. I can see that getting taken down, especially if reported by someone. If it's just a straight-up TOC in the back with no link leading to it, that's troubling. I'm still guessing it was reported.


She definitely did not have a link to the TOC. It was just located at the back so it wouldn't clog up the Look Inside. I'm pretty quick to start grumbling about scammers, and this is absolutely not a case of that. And the fact that the book was PULLED with no warning bothers me a LOT. She should have gotten an email identifying the problem and giving her a chance to fix it.

Also, I just did a quick sweep through the few books I've reported for being 900+ pages with links to "CLICK HERE FOR AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE" that go to the back, and all of them are still up. But this tiny book, maybe 80 KENPC, got pulled down with no warning or chance to explain or fix it?


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

I've always put my TOC and copyright at the back so a reader doesn't have to wade through it on a Look Inside or a sample  (as a reader, I hate having to do that).  Didn't see any reason not to since Amazon picked it up just fine for the link.

Well buggers. Now I'm going to have to reformat all my books (I had planned to redo the first ones I put up in 2011, but....)    Just what I needed. More work. 

Le sigh.  Well, on the bright side, I guess I'll stop being annoyed with Scrivener putting them up at the front, right after the cover.

ETA--so far as I know, the TOC at the end doesn't automatically get you a full book read. When I first began dropping my old books into KU (just before the launch of KU2), I could clearly see that a couple had been picked up, someone read 50 pages, and then no reads.  Once you've got more borrows you can't see that, of course, but right at the start.....I definitely did NOT get a full read because the TOC was at the back. I suppose that only works if someone actually uses the TOC.

As always, thanks to the good people here who help us keep up with this fast-changing business.  And boo, hiss, to the scammers who have brought this down on our heads.  Those back of the book TOCs have worked fine for four, going on five years...


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## NightWriterCT (Jan 4, 2016)

My Dog's Servant said:


> Le sigh. Well, on the bright side, I guess I'll stop being annoyed with Scrivener putting them up at the front, right after the cover.
> 
> As always, thanks to the good people here who help us keep up with this fast-changing business. And boo, hiss, to the scammers who have brought this down on our heads. Those back of the book TOCs have worked fine for four, going on five years...


Seconded.


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## 80593 (Nov 1, 2014)

I've just changed all mine and uploaded new files. I'd rather have left them where they were, but it's not worth risking a quality notice over. I've always put them in the back because I think it just looks cleaner for the Look Inside/sample. My chapters are only titled with numbers so the table of contents isn't terribly useful to the reader anyway.

Edit: And am I imagining things, or was Let's Get Digital where I got the idea to put them in the back in the first place? So it's not like it's either a new thing or part of the KU scam. It's a pretty common design choice. I'm glad they're cracking down on the scam but the usual sledgehammer approach is a bummer. Especially when they don't bother to notify anyone or give a warning. Yanking a book down and slapping up a quality notice is pretty harsh.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

As a reader who rarely uses "look inside" except to check something commented on here, I prefer them at the front.  Having them at the back affects how much I think I still have to read. When it's just a couple pages, no big deal.  However, authors are also adding all sorts of other back matter--chapters from the next book, bio, author's notes.  A book I just finished had the story end at 89%; the rest was all back matter.

As for ToC's in general--there's a linkage between the ToC, if done properly, and the "time left in chapter" that many, including my co-mod Ann, use as their reading.  So a ToC is important for readers for other than just to navigate.

Betsy


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

Just moved mine back to the front now (after pushing them to the back not long ago...) Cheers for the heads up.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> A potential heads up. An author friend of mine had their book taken down and the infamous content warning put on their page because, as Amazon put it:
> 
> "The HTML Table of Contents is present in the back of the content. Please provide the Table of Contents at the beginning of the book as per Section 3.3.6 in the Amazon Kindle Publishing Guidelines. You can see this issue at location 592."
> 
> Wondering if this is another case of Amazon trying to swat a few flies by by using a rocket launcher. Either way, it strikes me as a bit draconian, especially considering some popular software programs - like Calibre - default to a rear TOC.


I belong to a couple of secret groups, and this has happened to a few of the authors that have TOCs at the back of the book. Their books are in KU. I think they're cracking down on KU authors with TOCs in the back.

So, yes, if you have a TOC at the back and are in KU you might want to change it now.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Betsy....I remember Ann has commented before about the back matter throwing off her sense of how much is left to read. Do you think that's a common annoyance for many readers?

Putting first chapters of other books at the back of a title is a time-honored tradition in traditional publishing (something a low midlister, such as I was, once hoped to achieve). I've experimented with it with two recent ebooks and can't see that it's made any difference on sales of the books with the demo chapters. Based on Ann's comments in other threads, I'd been thinking about taking them out again to just clean up the file. Sounds like that's a good idea, huh?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

phillipgessert said:


> I've noticed that the KDP guidelines have gone from requiring an HTML TOC to simply suggesting one, so I imagine a lot of people will just leave them off. I would not be surprised if many rear TOCs were only there to meet spec.


I have never put one in my novels, only in my boxed sets and my non fiction. My last two books have them, but only because I decided to try out titling the chapters.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

My Dog's Servant said:


> Betsy....I remember Ann has commented before about the back matter throwing off her sense of how much is left to read. Do you think that's a common annoyance for many readers?
> 
> Putting first chapters of other books at the back of a title is a time-honored tradition in traditional publishing (something a low midlister, such as I was, once hoped to achieve). I've experimented with it with two recent ebooks and can't see that it's made any difference on sales of the books with the demo chapters. Based on Ann's comments in other threads, I'd been thinking about taking them out again to just clean up the file. Sounds like that's a good idea, huh?


I am one of those readers also that gets throw off if the books is finished at an early percentage and the rest is other stuff. With a paper book, I had a visual, just by looking at the spine at how much story I had left. With my kindles now I have the percentage. Used to be a reading bar, which I preferred in the past. Same idea though. It can make a story really abrupt if I thought I had 15% left to go and suddenly, wam bam, the end. . I am not happy then at all.

I read a lot of trade published books still and yes, many have some blurbs of other books, but I do not encounter a large percentage of that. I still get at least 95% of actual story. They tend to not go overboard. Last one I read had the beginning of the next in the series and the book stopped at 98%. That was MacMillan I believe. Others put a few blurbs up of other authors. I actually prefer the blurbs as I don't read partial books, which includes beginning chapters. But a blurb can get me interested in a book. Short blurbs, 2 per page is what I usually see. And still most books are at the 97 98% mark. 
So when I come across one that ends much before that, I notice.

As to the TOC, as its been said, its not just to use the go to. Which is very important of course. But also when you use the thingie, no clue what it is called. You swipe up and then you get a little book within a book to flip back to something earlier, it remembers where you been. But it also has the arrows to go from chapter to chapter. So you can flip to something back. I often do that to quickly see again what year a book it set. So I can figure out how old the characters are now. I forget numbers easy. 

If the stuff isn't set right, this wont work. Same with time left in chapter, time left in book. Its what I set most of my books to. Sometimes pages, but not all have pages.

I also can't really recall seeing books with the TOC in the back to be honest. Maybe non fiction? I don't read that. But pretty much every book I read has it in the front. As I am one of those readers that starts a book at the cover, it gives me an idea how many chapters there are, how long I might take to read it and in how many sessions. Just makes things easier for readers. For me at least. But I want my ebooks to look and feel as close to paper books as they can and some stuff has to be in ebooks to make that happen as we don't have the visual anymore. 
I think its that sense of size, length. I need that anchor or I am just reading into the abyss 

I do know the newest update 5.7.3 just came out yesterday, now has additional points of remembering in the flip up thingie. Like the reader keeps more info on what one has read and where that was. So now if I use go to to go to chapter 2 then 4 than 2 and so on, it gives now all those options in a scroll through at the bottom. Before it was just 2 points. Before and now. Maybe they are more capable now also to know what someone actually read? OR maybe its just to make reading even more convenient.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> As for ToC's in general--there's a linkage between the ToC, if done properly, and the "time left in chapter" that many, including my co-mod Ann, use as their reading. So a ToC is important for readers for other than just to navigate.


There are different "TOC" types. The one that's linked up with the device is the logical/NCX TOC file. The one folk "put at the back" is the HTML TOC.

My question is this: Are the authors seeing issues ones who are ONLY using an HTML TOC? Or do they also have a logical TOC that's linked to the devices' "Go To" menu?

The ONLY way to get to an HTML TOC in the back that isn't linked to the "Go To" menu is via a link somewhere else in the book (or paging all the way to the back). If it is linked, then it doesn't really matter where the TOC shows up.

I find it strange that Amazon would take down a book for violating something that isn't a "rule" but simply "strongly suggested".

So is that what's really happening? Or do the authors being cited have ONLY a non-logical, unlinked HTML TOC in the back of their books?

I have my pitchfork at the ready, but before I start brandishing it, I'd like to know _for sure _what's happening.


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## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

Is this only happening to people in KU, or is Amazon now demanding that everyone move their TOC?


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## AlexaGrave (Jun 11, 2015)

As far as short works not needing a ToC. I had them in there for two reasons. One, for easy links to my Other Works, Newsletter Link, and About the Author section. And two, because a couple of my titles are actually two shorter short stories combined, so having links so readers can jump to each story.

I mean, I'll go through now and fix them and then see what the Look Inside is like for each. Then I'll probably do as someone suggested and contact Amazon to have the Look Inside extended for the ones needed.

And I have to admit, I wasn't aware in the user agreement that the ToC was supposed to be in front (yes, I know dumb of me not read it all thoroughly). I think I've just heard of so many putting them in the back and people discussing it as an option that I didn't think it was a no-no!


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

phillipgessert said:


> I've noticed that the KDP guidelines have gone from requiring an HTML TOC to simply suggesting one, so I imagine a lot of people will just leave them off. I would not be surprised if many rear TOCs were only there to meet spec.


Bingo. If they enforce this nonsense, my TOCs will just go completely.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

I have a feeling the move from required TOC to suggested was because the older Kindles without NCX TOC capabilities are becoming less common as people buy newer models. Ideally I just prefer the NCX version; the HTML TOC's are some of the most unappealing design aspects in an ebook, in my opinion.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

PhoenixS said:


> Or do the authors being cited have ONLY a non-logical, unlinked HTML TOC in the back of their books?
> 
> I have my pitchfork at the ready, but before I start brandishing it, I'd like to know _for sure _what's happening.


In this particular instance that Rick is talking about (we both know this author), the TOC is an HTML TOC located at the back of the book. There is no link to it within the body of the book, in the front or otherwise. It was her understanding that it was a better design choice, both because a TOC for a 15K-word serial episode is a bit silly and because it takes up most of the Look Inside; that was the only reason for doing it and there was never any intention, nor any obvious way, of triggering folks to go to the TOC in the back and therefore get all the page reads. Hell, she gets all the page reads anyway; it's a popular serial and it's not like it takes a long time to read.

I don't know what the authors Lisa is talking about have going on, but that's the description of the one case of which I have knowledge.


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> I have a feeling the move from required TOC to suggested was because the older Kindles without NCX TOC capabilities are becoming less common as people buy newer models. Ideally I just prefer the NCX version; the HTML TOC's are some of the most unappealing design aspects in an ebook, in my opinion.


What do you mean?

Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3 
Chapter 4
Chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 7
Chapter 8

^^Solid craftsmanship


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

This is why I never think it's a good thing when Amazon cracks down on anything, even stuff I personally find unethical. They usually hit the legit authors and miss a lot of the truly scammy stuff anyway.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2016)

You have a short piece of work, but you don't want the Look Inside to take up the Look Inside space.

Try a different format.

Instead of:

Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 4
Chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 7
Chapter 8
Chapter 8
Chapter 10
Newsletter Signup
About the Author
Other books in this series

Format it this way:

Chapter 1  Chapter 2  Chapter 3  Chapter 4  Chapter 5  Chapter 6  Chapter 7  Chapter 8  Chapter 9  Chapter 10  Newsletter Signup  About the Author  Other books in this series


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

phillipgessert said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> Chapter 1
> Chapter 2
> ...


I've never found chapter numbers that appealing, really


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> This is why I never think it's a good thing when Amazon cracks down on anything, even stuff I personally find unethical. They usually hit the legit authors and miss a lot of the truly scammy stuff anyway.


It's part of their delicately-crafted scorched-earth approach.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

lilywhite said:


> In this particular instance that Rick is talking about (we both know this author), the TOC is an HTML TOC located at the back of the book. There is no link to it within the body of the book, in the front or otherwise. It was her understanding that it was a better design choice, both because a TOC for a 15K-word serial episode is a bit silly and because it takes up most of the Look Inside; that was the only reason for doing it and there was never any intention, nor any obvious way, of triggering folks to go to the TOC in the back and therefore get all the page reads.


My question is really whether she _also _has a logical/NCX TOC. Can a reader click "Table of Contents" from a device's "Go To" menu? Or is that option grayed out? If it's grayed out, it could absolutely be an innocent oversight.

No accusations here. I've put the HTML TOCs at the back of all our titles. Our box sets have abbreviated TOCs in the front that a reader can click to go to the beginning of any book they want in the set, but the full by-chapter TOCs for the boxes are also in the back. My expectation is that most readers will use the NCX TOC to navigate by, which I also include, of course, and which gives readers the stats like how much is left in each chapter, etc.

I can see where Amazon might see having an HTML TOC (suggested) _without _the accompanying NCX TOC (required) -- whether intentional or no -- as being a shenanigans trigger.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Atunah said:


> As to the TOC, as its been said, its not just to use the go to. Which is very important of course. But also when you use the thingie, no clue what it is called. You swipe up and then you get a little book within a book to flip back to something earlier, it remembers where you been. But it also has the arrows to go from chapter to chapter. So you can flip to something back. I often do that to quickly see again what year a book it set. So I can figure out how old the characters are now. I forget numbers easy.
> 
> If the stuff isn't set right, this wont work. Same with time left in chapter, time left in book. Its what I set most of my books to. Sometimes pages, but not all have pages.
> 
> ...


Atunah...thank you for this very informative post. This discussion is definitely making me rethink formatting....which I confess, was built on my personal preferences and ways of checking books, which don't seem to jibe with what a lot of readers follow.

I confess, I'm not sure about the book-within-a-book "thingee" ( my go-to word of choice, too!  ). I just looked on my Fire, Fire HD, and iPhone Kindle app on several different books and don't see that. I get the bar with the location, but not the book or more detailed reference or arrows pointing anywhere. I asked my sister to check on her iPad and we discovered that it looks a little different there and with different functionality. Haven't done the upgrade so will be interesting to see what that changes.

But the good thing out of this is I'm definitely not going to fret over Scrivener putting that TOC at the front anymore!

Anyway, thanks a million again. Your perspective as a reader is a real gift to this list. Ditto Betsy and Ann and others. Truly MUCH appreciated!


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

My Dog's Servant said:


> Atunah...thank you for this very informative post. This discussion is definitely making me rethink formatting....which I confess, was built on my personal preferences and ways of checking books, which don't seem to jibe with what a lot of readers follow.
> 
> I confess, I'm not sure about the book-within-a-book "thingee" ( my go-to word of choice, too!  ). I just looked on my Fire, Fire HD, and iPhone Kindle app on several different books and don't see that. I get the bar with the location, but not the book or more detailed reference or arrows pointing anywhere. I asked my sister to check on her iPad and we discovered that it looks a little different there and with different functionality. Haven't done the upgrade so will be interesting to see what that changes.
> 
> ...


Hah, the flip thingie is on the kindles. Not the tablets or the apps. I do have a fire and a android phone with the app, but have no clue what it looks like on ithingies as I never had any of those. But no flip thingie on my android phone and I don't think on my fire. I don't really read on those things so I a not really familiar with how they look like. Only if my kindles are dead and need charging will I pull out a tablet. 

Now I need to find out what the proper word for the flip thingie is. I am sure Amazon gave it a name.

eta: Its called page flip. I'll forget that name by tomorrow and be back calling it the flip thingie in a flash.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Phoenix...thanks for the clarification (you're another one of the list's gifts!). [Breathing sigh of relief. ] I have the NCX TOC working just fine in the Go To's, plus the full HTML TOCs at the back, so I guess I'm good.

Atunah...thanks for checking. Flip page thingee works perfectly fine for me! (I have a B&W Nook, so hadn't bought a Kindle, though I keep thinking I'd better by one because of COURSE I need FOUR reading devices plus a smart phone and four computers with the Kindle app to read one book at a time! )

I'd agree with the non-fiction TOC at the front so long as it had descriptive titles.


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## new_writer (Feb 2, 2016)

What are the chances they're only cracking down now on this rule (when before they never cared) because of all those helpful reports from Kboard authors about evil people playing tricks with the TOC? 

How many page was that "evil scammers using TOC so let's report everyone we find, guys!" thread again? 

Hey, the good news is, now all those bad people won't be taking a share of your KU pot! Let's just hope, though, that you're still around to be getting your share, too...


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

PhoenixS said:


> My question is really whether she _also _has a logical/NCX TOC. Can a reader click "Table of Contents" from a device's "Go To" menu? Or is that option grayed out? If it's grayed out, it could absolutely be an innocent oversight.
> 
> No accusations here. I've put the HTML TOCs at the back of all our titles. Our box sets have abbreviated TOCs in the front that a reader can click to go to the beginning of any book they want in the set, but the full by-chapter TOCs for the boxes are also in the back. My expectation is that most readers will use the NCX TOC to navigate by, which I also include, of course, and which gives readers the stats like how much is left in each chapter, etc.
> 
> I can see where Amazon might see having an HTML TOC (suggested) _without _the accompanying NCX TOC (required) -- whether intentional or no -- as being a shenanigans trigger.





My Dog's Servant said:


> Phoenix...thanks for the clarification (you're another one of the list's gifts!). [Breathing sigh of relief. ] I have the NCX TOC working just fine in the Go To's, plus the full HTML TOCs at the back, so I guess I'm good.


Here's the thing: the Kindle Publishing Guidelines specifically say NOT to put a HTML TOC at the back. The OP cited the relevant sectionThe section number in the OP is old. It's now section 5.1. I feel like the above quoted posts aren't taking this into account.



> *Place the HTML TOC towards the beginning of the book and not at the end of the book.* This ensures that a customer paging through the book from the beginning encounters the TOC naturally. Incorrect placement of the TOC affects the accuracy of the "Last Page Read" feature. Correct placement ensures that the TOC appears in sample downloads of the book.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Back in the old erotica gold rush days, it used to be standard to put a 'steamy excerpt' in front before the TOC and author notes. That way buyers could get a taste of what the book was about when clicking the "look inside". I don't see why that method can't be adapted now. And quite frankly that's been a thing that Print Books have done for years. ... 

Soo.. 

- Choice Excerpt
- TOC
- Book Content

And there you have it. A delicious marketing sandwich, that is compliant with Amazon's rules.


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## farrago (Oct 29, 2013)

Woot. I got a QC notice error at 5035 which as the Back of Book matter, the TOC. And yes, David Gaughran suggests putting the TOC at Back of book. So I do--for all of my units. But only one got the QC notice. I emailed David and he said he was hearing about the QC notices about TOC in back. I had the formatter move it to the front. Not touching the other books. I emailed amazon and asked for answers and if this was a new rule--it needed to be announced for all authors--not selective. I asked for the answer to come from 2nd tier Supervisor. I'm supposed to hear something tomorrow. I'm just hanging fire. My unit was not removed. And there was no QC tag on it on Amazon. Thousands of ebook have the TOC in back. 

I don't have a clue how to work a scam with a TOC. I also do not put chapters of other units in back matter. I have a one page short note to the reader and sometimes a brief description of another book. But, I don't do that often because I may change the title, the cover, like playing paperdolls. I'm just gonna wait to see how things shake out. Whatever the rules are, I'll follow 'em. TOC does not count in KENP whether in front or back. Says Amazon. 

I have heard of Amazon taking a book down, but only when the QC notice was ignored. Or perhaps it went to Spam. I open every single email from Amazon and reply at once. I've always had courteous replies. Not certain this adds to the discussion.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

PhoenixS said:


> I find it strange that Amazon would take down a book for violating something that isn't a "rule" but simply "strongly suggested".


It is "strongly suggested" to have an HTML TOC. It's a rule to put it in the front and not the back.


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

Atunah said:


> I read a lot of trade published books still and yes, many have some blurbs of other books, but I do not encounter a large percentage of that. I still get at least 95% of actual story. They tend to not go overboard. Last one I read had the beginning of the next in the series and the book stopped at 98%. That was MacMillan I believe. Others put a few blurbs up of other authors. I actually prefer the blurbs as I don't read partial books, which includes beginning chapters. But a blurb can get me interested in a book. Short blurbs, 2 per page is what I usually see. And still most books are at the 97 98% mark.
> So when I come across one that ends much before that, I notice.


Just wanted to say excellent post, Atunah. I especially liked the idea of including a blurb of the next book in the back.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

farrago said:


> I emailed amazon and asked for answers and if this was a new rule--it needed to be announced for all authors--not selective. I asked for the answer to come from 2nd tier Supervisor. I'm supposed to hear something tomorrow. I'm just hanging fire.


Going by the revision history of the guidelines, it's not new. Amazon just seems to be enforcing it now.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

new_writer said:


> What are the chances they're only cracking down now on this rule (when before they never cared) because of all those helpful reports from Kboard authors about evil people playing tricks with the TOC?
> 
> How many page was that "evil scammers using TOC so let's report everyone we find, guys!" thread again?
> 
> Hey, the good news is, now all those bad people won't be taking a share of your KU pot! Let's just hope, though, that you're still around to be getting your share, too...


Which would be all well and good, except the scammers aren't fiddling with the TOC, they're just putting a link to get the reader to go to the back of the book, thus triggering a full read of the book.

As far back as I can remember, it's been suggested to put the front matter -- TOC, copyright, dedication, etc. -- in the back so readers don't have to page through it if the book started at the cover. Some books had pages and pages of stuff up front (mostly trad pub conversions, but new books as well), which you either had to flip over or find the first chapter through the Go To link.

In KU, Amazon supposedly sets the beginning of the book at Chapter One, regardless of where the publisher puts the start point. Supposedly. This is why having a scamming link to the back of the book shouldn't even work. But there you go. Just like the KENPC isn't so "normalized", apparently nothing else is either.

I only have a TOC in the front because Scrivener puts it there and I can't change it. I was going to start putting the file for longer works into Sigil or something and fix that, but now I guess there's no point. Now I'm wondering if I should fix all the stuff I have up...


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

Hi. I'm one of the authors who got this QC notice from Amazon. I was nervous about posting about it yesterday because I was pretty upset, plus a little embarrassed to have a quality notice on one of my book pages. But it seems like people have concerns and questions, so I figured I'll just go ahead and share more details. 

This happened to one of my romance serial episodes under my other pen name. I put the TOC in the back because 1) these books are short and I didn't want it to clog up the Look Inside, 2) when I first started self-publishing, I read that this was a good design choice, and 3) it's the default option in Calibre (which I use), and to be honest, I had no idea how to change it until yesterday. Oh and 4) I had no idea it was against the TOS.

So, the HTML TOC sat in the back. I had no link in the frontmatter that went to the TOC in the back because I'd like to get page reads from people actually reading my book, you know? And the book did have the logical TOC that you can get to from the device menu as well. I double-checked. It was there. I'd had no other email from Amazon until yesterday, but I double-checked my spam folder just in case. But there were no other emails. So, the first one I got from them was the quality issue notice telling me they'd taken my book off of sale from the store. I think it seems a bit extreme personally, but there you have it.

Interestingly, ALL my books had the TOC in the back and yet only one got the boot. I went ahead and started changing them all though, because I can't afford to have books taken off sale randomly. After I'd fixed the issue, it took about 18 hours for the book to go back on sale (it's back up as of about ten minutes ago), but I did take a hit in earnings. It was the only one in that series on the HNR so it was the one getting all the eyeballs, so all the books dropped in earnings and ranks overnight. Yay.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Shelley K said:


> It's part of their delicately-crafted scorched-earth approach.


+1


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Worrying stuff - so good to hear this has been sorted out. Thanks for the update, Cady.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=APILE934L348N I can't find the relevant section in the TOS. It's certainly not at 3 (Term and Termination) and 5.1 has nothing specific, except it does say we have to comply with Amazon's "Programme Policies" for content, which again don't seem to have anything specific about TOS position. What am I missing?

I wonder whether this is a misguided attempt to go after book stuffing, as in authors putting loads of irrelevant bonus/unrelated content at the back, and the people doing the checking haven't understood what they're supposed to be looking for?


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

I'm confused by the internal NCX TOC and the HTML TOC. I use Vellum and usually select 'No Table of Contents" but a message pops up from Vellum that it goes in the back for Kindle. But I have no idea if this is a NCX or HTML version. Any Vellum users know?


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

CadyVance said:


> Hi. I'm one of the authors who got this QC notice from Amazon. I was nervous about posting about it yesterday because I was pretty upset, plus a little embarrassed to have a quality notice on one of my book pages. But it seems like people have concerns and questions, so I figured I'll just go ahead and share more details.
> 
> This happened to one of my romance serial episodes under my other pen name. I put the TOC in the back because 1) these books are short and I didn't want it to clog up the Look Inside, 2) when I first started self-publishing, I read that this was a good design choice, and 3) it's the default option in Calibre (which I use), and to be honest, I had no idea how to change it until yesterday. Oh and 4) I had no idea it was against the TOS.
> 
> ...


Yikes. Thanks for being so open about your experience, Cady. Sorry to hear about the lost earnings.

Finally got all my Table of Contents shifted to the front. Not easy for almost 30 books across several pen names, but I don't want to take any chances.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I've never created a TOC for any of my books. 
I use H1 to format my chapter headings so that a TOC appears when people "goto" the TOC on their device.  

I've never quite seen a reason for a reader to navigate to the front or the back to click on Chapter Eight. How many readers remember chapter numbers? 
I suppose a TOC was convenient for older devices when readers might want to find the author notes or whatnot, but at this point a TOC is just clutter.


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

KaiW said:


> I'm confused by the internal NCX TOC and the HTML TOC. I use Vellum and usually select 'No Table of Contents" but a message pops up from Vellum that it goes in the back for Kindle. But I have no idea if this is a NCX or HTML version. Any Vellum users know?


I'm not a Vellum user, but that'll be the HTML TOC. The NCX / Logical is not positioned within the flow of the book (front / back) at all.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

phillipgessert said:


> I'm not a Vellum user, but that'll be the HTML TOC. The NCX / Logical is not positioned within the flow of the book (front / back) at all.


Cheers Phillip. So this basically sounds like if I format using Vellum that I have no choice but to have a HTML TOC whether I want one or not? Yikes, that might get get me in trouble with this new rule then


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

KaiW said:


> Cheers Phillip. So this basically sounds like if I format using Vellum that I have no choice but to have a HTML TOC whether I want one or not? Yikes, that might get get me in trouble with this new rule then


I could be wrong, but I think they're pretty quick about updating for stuff like this--in the meantime, you may be able to get by with uploading the TOC-less ePub (rather than the MOBI) to KDP.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Shelley K said:


> It's part of their delicately-crafted scorched-earth approach.


Yep, nuking everything but the cockroaches.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Ava Glass said:


> It is "strongly suggested" to have an HTML TOC. It's a rule to put it in the front and not the back.


Silly me. https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A140JEYVI0P8KQ

"To use the navigation document as an HTML TOC, enter it in the <spine> section of the OPF *where you would like it to appear in the flow of your content.*
Including it in the flow of your content will provide easy navigation for customers on devices without chapter-to-chapter navigation in the Kindle Go To menu.

Tip: To avoid interrupting the customer's reading progress, *we recommend placing it* at the front of the book."

ETA: Bolding mine.


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## Brad West (May 21, 2014)

KaiW said:


> I'm confused by the internal NCX TOC and the HTML TOC. I use Vellum and usually select 'No Table of Contents" but a message pops up from Vellum that it goes in the back for Kindle. But I have no idea if this is a NCX or HTML version. Any Vellum users know?


Just to confirm the above, all of this is about the HTML TOC, which appears as a page in your book. Regardless of user preference, Vellum always generates a logical TOC ("NCX"), which informs navigation controls like the "Go To" pulldown and sidebar, and doesn't have any sort of position.

Unfortunately, on Amazon, there is no perfect option for an HTML TOC:
[list type=decimal]
[*]In the *front*, and it will be seen in Look Inside (because, as Phillip points out, Amazon is seemingly not able to go from the Start Page, as stores like iBooks do). Sometimes that's desirable (like in non-fiction), but often it's not.
[*]In the *back*, and it's a bit unusual (compared to print books), and it can mess with Last Page read (the reason mentioned in the guidelines)
[*]*Absent* entirely, and there's no way for a reader to access the TOC on older Kindles (e.g. the "Keyboard") that don't have Go To popups built from the logical TOC
[/list]
Prior to these events, we've long wrestled over whether (2) or (3) is worse. We've read the guidelines many times and through many revisions, but unfortunately the guidelines can't always be relied on. Option 1 (in the front) has always been the default for Kindle eBooks made with Vellum. Because of many requests to keep the TOC out of the Look Inside, because of the widespread use of option 2, and because option 3 is a lesser experience for readers with older Kindles, we recently added in-the-back as an option.

Although we haven't yet heard from a Vellum user who was directly affected by this, we are discussing revisiting these options. If Amazon is now abiding by these guidelines, it could be that an absent HTML TOC is a valid (if discouraged) option, and so we are considering making this an option in Vellum. But we don't want to do that if it's going to cause issues as well: Amazon doesn't always follow its guidelines literally. We are paying attention, though, and if we're able to determine (as best we can) that an absent HTML TOC is a viable option, we'll make that an option in Vellum as soon as we're able to.

P.S. Phoenix raises an interesting question about whether this is only a problem for books without a logical TOC (NCX). If we hear from a Vellum user (and again, so far we haven't), we'll have our answer, and will share it here.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Ugh, do I really have to reformat everything or is this just for KU books?


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Brad West said:


> ... We are paying attention, though, and if we're able to determine (as best we can) that an absent HTML TOC is a viable option, we'll make that an option in Vellum as soon as we're able to.


May I just derail for a moment to let Brad know how impressed I am with how responsive Vellum has been to formatting concerns and to responding to issues raised here on KB. I don't use a Mac, so I don't use Vellum, but based on the level of thoughtful commentary and customer service responses I've seen from them (Brad) on KB, I wouldn't hesitate for a second in recommending Vellum to Mac users. I am old, I am jaded, I do not impress easily. So thank you, Brad, for making me just a little less jaded today...


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## renamed (Nov 27, 2015)

Thanks so much to the OP for the heads up. I've contacted my formatter to ask to have my first book fixed (it's the only one with the TOC in the back). This is the first time I've actually had steady sales that last more than a few weeks and the thought of my first book being pulled right now gives me stress I don't need.


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

PhoenixS said:


> Silly me. https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A140JEYVI0P8KQ
> 
> "To use the navigation document as an HTML TOC, enter it in the <spine> section of the OPF *where you would like it to appear in the flow of your content.*
> Including it in the flow of your content will provide easy navigation for customers on devices without chapter-to-chapter navigation in the Kindle Go To menu.
> ...


That's just frustrating.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

CadyVance said:


> That's just frustrating.


This whole business makes me cranky. And for your book to be pulled like that... Crankier still. Especially when so many of the scammy ones are still up: Bonus: 100 FREE BOOKS!!! And one that even boasts in the blurb: "Several languages included." Too bad English isn't one of them. Grrr.

Thank you for posting your experience, Cady. And hugs to you for having to go through it. I hope it means Amazon is manually starting to do something about those scambundles, and that they just have more training to do with the folk involved.


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## Jake Kerr (Aug 6, 2014)

KDP specifically tells you WHERE to put the ToC:



> Overview
> 
> Make sure each of your books or chapters already has a header name or a number.
> To do this, use the Styles feature to apply a style to each chapter or section heading.
> ...


As you can see, they tell you to put it AFTER the copyright but BEFORE the content.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2016)

AlexaGrave said:


> Well, this sucks. I've been placing my (rather short) ToCs at the back for my short stories. Like others have mentioned, in a shorter work if the ToC is up front there will hardly anything to sample! I'm guessing if I move it up front for at least 1 or 2 of my stories, they may get like only a paragraph of actual story sample.
> 
> Scammers got to ruin things for everyone.
> 
> ...


Why would anyone need a TOC on fiction, much less a short story? Kindle remembers the place I left off, so ... why?


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

CoryODoole said:


> Why would anyone need a TOC on fiction, much less a short story? Kindle remembers the place I left off, so ... why?


Most everyone I've worked with needed them solely to meet spec. My usual workflow involved building a sensible print version, and an ebook version that inexplicably included a pointless TOC.

So basically, they had an absurd spec and a broken Look Inside, many thousands of books have been made to work around this, and now those many thousands are seemingly at risk of being yanked for QC.

There should not be a TOC unless the book is meant to be navigated by one. Every part of a book is meant to be functional. Requiring a TOC is about as silly as requiring an Index. We're meant to make informed decisions about the structure of a book. Arbitrary rules like these will continue to pose problems for as long as they make them.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

CoryODoole said:


> Why would anyone need a TOC on fiction, much less a short story? Kindle remembers the place I left off, so ... why?


I use the TOCs in the fiction I read all the time. Useful if I want to go back and re-read a section.


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

PhoenixS said:


> This whole business makes me cranky. And for your book to be pulled like that... Crankier still. Especially when so many of the scammy ones are still up: Bonus: 100 FREE BOOKS!!! And one that even boasts in the blurb: "Several languages included." Too bad English isn't one of them. Grrr.
> 
> Thank you for posting your experience, Cady. And hugs to you for having to go through it. I hope it means Amazon is manually starting to do something about those scambundles, and that they just have more training to do with the folk involved.


Thanks. I'm a lot happier now that the book is for sale again. I was worried it would take days to resolve. I still don't quite understand how a TOC in the wrong spot (according to their "guidelines") warranted actually removing the book, but I think I give up trying to find logic in the situation, haha.

And I'm glad that they do seem to be trying to fix the deluge of scam books with the links to the back of the book. That said, it doesn't seem like any of the ones I've spotted have been yanked yet.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2016)

katherinef said:


> Ugh, do I really have to reformat everything or is this just for KU books?


That's what I would like to know, too. Are all the books we know so far to have been affected by this in KU?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2016)

No wonder amazon messes with stuff. A deluge of complaints and when they try to fix it, everyone gets all up in arms. Seems Amazon can't win. I had a novel idea: concentrate on what your doing, as a writer, and leave the complaining to customers. Maybe then they'd leave things the hell alone for a while.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

CadyVance said:


> Hi. I'm one of the authors who got this QC notice from Amazon. I was nervous about posting about it yesterday because I was pretty upset, plus a little embarrassed to have a quality notice on one of my book pages. But it seems like people have concerns and questions, so I figured I'll just go ahead and share more details.
> 
> This happened to one of my romance serial episodes under my other pen name. I put the TOC in the back because 1) these books are short and I didn't want it to clog up the Look Inside, 2) when I first started self-publishing, I read that this was a good design choice, and 3) it's the default option in Calibre (which I use), and to be honest, I had no idea how to change it until yesterday. Oh and 4) I had no idea it was against the TOS.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry that happened to you.  I had *just* put the TOC in the back of my boxset because I reformatted the thing with Vellum and figured out how to do it. My reason for doing so was because with four books and 80+ chapters, that's a lot of TOC for readers to wade through at the front of a book. Since reading this thread this morning, I went ahead and reformatted it, yet again, with the TOC in the front. I wanted to put an apology to readers in there with it and explain it wasn't my choice, but I didn't. 

It wouldn't have been a big deal to re-format if my macincloud account hadn't screwed up ten days ago. I have it just to do Vellum, and when it messed up, I was issued another IP address. (I think that's what it is--new password and stuff too). When I opened it, I had to redownload Vellum as well, and get my license key again. Of course, that meant everything I'd finished and downloaded to that macincloud/Vellum combo was gone. Ugh. Also, when I tried to upload my re-formatted file today, the preview wasn't working. I tried and tried, and then did the downloadable previewer. I guess it looked okay, but that previewer isn't the same.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

jakedfw said:


> KDP specifically tells you WHERE to put the ToC:
> 
> As you can see, they tell you to put it AFTER the copyright but BEFORE the content.


In their guidelines for creating the files with WORD, yes, it's there. In their guidelines for creating via HTML, it is "recommended". I can point to the HTML version page all day and someone else can point to the WORD version page -- in the end, they say different things -- and few folk will read both versions.



SummerNights said:


> That's what I would like to know, too. Are all the books we know so far to have been affected by this in KU?


http://www.walterjonwilliams.net/2016/03/amazon-may-they-choke-on-my-vomit
Walter had a BookBub ad running when his was pulled. It is offered wide, and is NOT in KU.

Which, I can still point to the KDP page where it says the TOC is "recommended" NOT required to be at the back. That's a mighty big scythe they're using to cut a swath across files created via Vellum, Calibre, hand-coded HTML and folk who like to keep things tidy.


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## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

Hmm.  The publishing guidelines mention that a rear TOC messes up the sync-to-furthest-page-read feature.  I had not considered that before. 

It never seemed to be important to them before the KU page count thing, though.  They mention it in very few of the places where they discuss TOCs.  In fact, I found many places where Amazon tells you how to make a TOC, and only one place that mentions where they want you to put it.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2016)

PhoenixS said:


> http://www.walterjonwilliams.net/2016/03/amazon-may-they-choke-on-my-vomit
> Walter had a BookBub ad running when his was pulled. It is offered wide, and is NOT in KU.
> 
> Which, I can still point to the KDP page where it says the TOC is "recommended" NOT required to be at the back. That's a mighty big scythe they're using to cut a swath across files created via Vellum, Calibre, hand-coded HTML and folk who like to keep things tidy.


   What a nightmare! I guess I'd better get to work. I have two boxed sets with the TOC in the back because, you know, longest TOC's ever. Maybe I'll just do away with them altogether, or just link to individual books but not chapters. I can't believe they're taking books down for this without contacting people first.


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## Brad West (May 21, 2014)

MaryMcDonald said:


> My reason for doing so was because with four books and 80+ chapters, that's a lot of TOC for readers to wade through at the front of a book.


If you're building a box set, Vellum has an option to only list the volumes of the set in the HTML TOC, and not every chapter within. More on that can be found here:
http://help.180g.co/vellum/box-sets/#toc

_Note: as mentioned there, this only affects the HTML TOC. Every chapter will still be declared in the logical TOC (NCX), and shown in pop-ups, etc._


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Just want to echo Phoenix's earlier statements, Brad. You guys at Vellum are awesome.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2016)

How I wish I had Vellum for PC. Looks so nice! Seriously considering buying a mac just for this.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Brad West said:


> If you're building a box set, Vellum has an option to only list the volumes of the set in the HTML TOC, and not every chapter within. More on that can be found here:
> http://help.180g.co/vellum/box-sets/#toc
> 
> _Note: as mentioned there, this only affects the HTML TOC. Every chapter will still be declared in the logical TOC (NCX), and shown in pop-ups, etc._




Okay, now I'm confused. What is the logical TOC? *ETA: Never mind. I see what you mean. *I just uploaded the new file with the TOC at the front, but I might have time to re-do it the way you said as per the volumes, but not sure what you mean by the logical TOC. And by time, I mean I have major promos starting on Saturday, so I can't afford to mess it up.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Andrew Murray said:


> How I wish I had Vellum for PC. Looks so nice! Seriously considering buying a mac just for this.


You can 'rent' macincloud. That's what I'm doing. I went ahead and chose the $20/month option, but you could also just pay per hour as needed.


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

MaryMcDonald said:


> Okay, now I'm confused. What is the logical TOC? I just uploaded the new file with the TOC at the front, but I might have time to re-do it the way you said as per the volumes, but not sure what you mean by the logical TOC.


HTML TOC: The visible TOC within the book itself, analogous to a print TOC, on an actual ebook page. Not required by Amazon, but suggested, and apparently if it's there it had better be at the front.

Logical / NCX TOC: The navigation accessible via the reader's menu, usually labeled "Go To" or similar.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

MaryMcDonald said:


> Okay, now I'm confused. What is the logical TOC? I just uploaded the new file with the TOC at the front, but I might have time to re-do it the way you said as per the volumes, but not sure what you mean by the logical TOC. And by time, I mean I have major promos starting on Saturday, so I can't afford to mess it up.


The logical TOC is the one in the 'go to...' menu at the top of kindle books. It's separate, so it doesn't interfere with the flow of the book.

Edit: Phillip beat me to it. Alas. I'm so slow.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2016)

MaryMcDonald said:


> You can 'rent' macincloud. That's what I'm doing. I went ahead and chose the $20/month option, but you could also just pay per hour as needed.


Ooh, thank you!


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Monique said:


> Just want to echo Phoenix's earlier statements, Brad. You guys at Vellum are awesome.


Thirded.

The Brads are awesome. They seriously go above and beyond.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

PhoenixS said:


> Silly me. https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A140JEYVI0P8KQ
> 
> "To use the navigation document as an HTML TOC, enter it in the <spine> section of the OPF *where you would like it to appear in the flow of your content.*
> Including it in the flow of your content will provide easy navigation for customers on devices without chapter-to-chapter navigation in the Kindle Go To menu.
> ...


Those aren't the guidelines. They're here.

https://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/AmazonKindlePublishingGuidelines.pdf



> 5.1 HTML TOC Guidelines
> Place the HTML TOC towards the beginning of the book and not at the end of the book. This ensures that a customer paging through the book from the beginning encounters the TOC naturally. Incorrect placement of the TOC affects the accuracy of the "Last Page Read" feature. Correct placement ensures that the TOC appears in sample downloads of the book.


Why is that help page different than the guidelines? Well, that's Amazon for you. Kinda like how they've decided to enforce the rule now.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Ros_Jackson said:


> https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=APILE934L348N I can't find the relevant section in the TOS. It's certainly not at 3 (Term and Termination) and 5.1 has nothing specific, except it does say we have to comply with Amazon's "Programme Policies" for content, which again don't seem to have anything specific about TOS position. *What am I missing?*


This document:

https://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/AmazonKindlePublishingGuidelines.pdf


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

A guideline isn't a rule.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)




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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Rick Gualtieri said:


>


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Lydniz said:


> A guideline isn't a rule.


"The HTML Table of Contents is present in the back of the content. Please provide the Table of Contents at the beginning of the book as per Section 3.3.6 [now section 5.1] in the Amazon Kindle Publishing Guidelines. You can see this issue at location 592."

Definition-wise, guidelines aren't rules. I'll concede that. However, in this situation, Amazon is treating them as such. It is "suggested" to have a HTML TOC. If one exists, it must be in the front.

In publishing (or whatever), who says "submission rules"? It's always "submission guidelines." Those guidelines, however, are expected to be followed.

Shutterstock's "submission guidelines." They're rules. It's just the preferred term.

http://www.shutterstock.com/contributorsupport/articles/kbat02/000006656


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Thanks for the heads up.

I guess I'm not really seeing the point of including a TOC at all, unless it's a mega-box set, in which case it can be helpful for the reader to check the sample and clearly see what they're getting (e.g. a ton of content). I could see the same argument for nonfiction, as the chapter names give a clear overview of what to expect. But even then, I dunno - unless you do some nice formatting, most of them are just a barrage of unreadable links that blur together. 

The linked TOCs look ugly and are borderline nonfunctional on even the crispest Kindle - a deluge of 30 links all at once that are difficult to click correctly and also difficult to read. They're also a pain in the ass to get working correctly, depending on what compiling program you use. 

I've never included one for a standard novel/novella and gotten zero complaints over 600+ reviews and forty titles for this practice. 

Just make sure the NCX is correctly pulling the chapter names - so that the logical TOC works correctly, which is much better and much easier to navigate (as others have mentioned) - and you're good to go. 

TLDR: in 99% of cases I would just remove them altogether and save the headache. 

Nick


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

In my novels I had the TOC in the back because I thought it was required and having Chapter 1...Chapter 100 starting off the book seemed foolish.  Today I deleted all of those and uploaded new versions.  For my non-fiction or my short story collections I've always had them at the front so readers could navigate to the section or story they wanted.  Those I've left alone.


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## Jake Kerr (Aug 6, 2014)

> In their guidelines for creating the files with WORD, yes, it's there. In their guidelines for creating via HTML, it is "recommended".


As noted a few times above, this kind of misrepresents the section. Amazon has "recommended" that you include an *HTML ToC*, however, once you follow this "guideline," they make the location pretty clear by saying the reader expects the ToC in the front of the book. That's "why" (the word they use) they recommend having an HTML in the first place--reader expectation!

Regardless, the section is now changed and explicitly says the beginning of the book. https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A140JEYVI0P8KQ


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Threads like this are one of the reasons I'm still a faithful KBoards participant after more than 6 years. All my html TOCs are at the back of my books, as are the copyright pages. So I'd better get busy and redo them all.

As a reader, I use the Go To feature frequently, and that's for fiction. I even once had an email from an unhappy reader who as I remember had purchased the Kobo version of one of my books and found it had no TOC (that would have been via Smashwords and the good old Meat Grinder). I don't like just a list of chapters and my TOCs have a short descriptive sentence for each chapter. The page flip feature in the Paper Whites and Voyage that Atunah described makes that unnecessary (the purpose being to make it easy to tell what the chapter you want to go to is about). I'll take that out now too. Not that many people are using older Kindles, I suppose, and it was a nicety that will just have to be abandoned.


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## LFGabel (Nov 28, 2015)

If you go through CreateSpace first, there is an option to have them create a Kindle version for you. How does Createspace handle ToC?


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

WasAnn said:


> This is just so annoying.
> 
> I use Calibre (because I'm old and don't like change, plus it's super easy to use) and I always just let the mobi converter put it in the back. I just converted a new book to do my read-through and clicked for NO TOC and my logical TOC inside the Fire HDX worked fine with all the chapters, but no messy HTML TOC was present.
> 
> ...


You're no longer required to use an HTML TOC at all, so you can even leave out the one you described that's just got the parts of a book. Seems ok to omit the HTML TOC entirely.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

PhoenixS said:


> http://www.walterjonwilliams.net/2016/03/amazon-may-they-choke-on-my-vomit
> Walter had a BookBub ad running when his was pulled. It is offered wide, and is NOT in KU.
> 
> Which, I can still point to the KDP page where it says the TOC is "recommended" NOT required to be at the back. That's a mighty big scythe they're using to cut a swath across files created via Vellum, Calibre, hand-coded HTML and folk who like to keep things tidy.


This is one of the cases I'd heard about.


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## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

WasAnn said:


> This is just so annoying. I'm very annoyed that I've got to go through all those books and go through all this mess to fix something that isn't broken.


But that's the point. Amazon has been letting it slide for years and now no longer does. As far back as _Amazon Kindle Publishing Guidelines, version 1.9_ (that we in our office downloaded from Amazon on June 1, 2011) it says:

*All Kindle books should have both logical and HTML TOCs. Users expect to see an HTML TOC when paging through a book from the beginning*

and

*Publishers must place an HTML page with a table of contents at the beginning of the book, so that users can easily jump to given locations within it (typically to a given chapter). The HTML TOC must be linked so that users can click and get to a specific location. A table of contents that is not made of links is not useful on Kindle.*

and

*Please ensure the HTML TOC is located towards the beginning of the book and not at the end of the book. (This ensures that a customer paging through from the start encounters the TOC naturally. Inaccurate placement affects the accuracy of the "Last Page Read" feature. Correct usage also ensures that the TOC appears in the book's sample.)*

Most of us (and I include us here in our office, too) have been placing it at the back of the book, if we include it at all, so it won't hog the limited space of the sample.

As for, "Why do it?" On the page that *jakedfw* referred to:

_https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A140JEYVI0P8KQ_

...they say:

*Why it Matters
Some older devices don't support a logical TOC, so an HTML TOC lets readers on all devices find parts of your book easily.*

There you go.

However, you make a good point here:



WasAnn said:


> I really think having a long list of 40+ chapters is sort of ugly and pointless in the front of a novel


The response to that is, "That depends."

There are two types of Table of Contents: enumerative and descriptive. I agree that the enumerative ones (_Chapter 1, Chapter 2, [...] Chapter 23_) are pointless, as well as wasteful of the sample space. So, if we now have to include a Table of Contents listing, make it a descriptive one, one that attaches a piece of text to the chapter. It can be very short (_"CHAPTER 1. I AM BORN."_) or one of the long Victorian ones (_"Chapter 12, in which Elizabeth discovers Genevieve's secret and must make a decision"_).

In any case, if we now are required to have them, make them useful to the reader, not just a bunch of numbers.

And while Phillip Gessert:



phillipgessert said:


> You're no longer required to use an HTML TOC at all, so you can even leave out the one you described that's just got the parts of a book. Seems ok to omit the HTML TOC entirely.


...is technically correct in saying that an HTML TOC is not "required" (a dangerous word to assume too much about if there ever was one), when Amazon says that it is "*Strongly Recommended by Amazon*" (see again the link by *jakedfw*, above) my advice would be that one omits it at one's peril. All it would take is one disgruntled customer to complain about "quality" and your book will be blocked and removed from sale until you fix it.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

It seems to me that *if* Amazon is doing this in order to crack down on in-document links to the end of the book to trigger full reads, they're going about it in the wrong way. A TOC is *only one type* of in-document link and true scammers will just insert another link. Targeting TOC does nothing to solve the problem at all.

What Amazon *can* do to solve it...:

1. get a Real Person (TM) to look at each book and check for this sort of stuff (and a host of other issues), and communicate with the writer if there are any issues.
2. Abandon Select. The problem exists because borrows/page reads are guaranteed payouts. If they were scammed sales, most people who bought a scammed book would simply return it.


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

What I don't understand is how this amounts to such a poor reader experience that the book must be removed from sale. I'm baffled that they're not sending out an email giving you time to fix it before they block the book, especially since this is considered a pretty standard formatting option.

In fiction, it makes more sense to me to have the TOC in the back because a reader's not likely to want to jump around before reading the book. Once they've read the book, they may want to use the TOC to jump back to a chapter. The exception is box sets or anthologies. Non-fiction is a different matter. I can understand wanting a TOC at the front because a reader may want to jump to a chapter that has the information they're interested in.

And if Amazon is wanting to crack down on the scamming going on, it seems to my non-programmer brain that it would be easier to require that the TOC be in the back and then flag any books that have internal links (which look different than an external link to a website) in the first 90% of the book and have those titles reviewed.


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## farrago (Oct 29, 2013)

jakedfw said:


> As noted a few times above, this kind of misrepresents the section. Amazon has "recommended" that you include an *HTML ToC*, however, once you follow this "guideline," they make the location pretty clear by saying the reader expects the ToC in the front of the book. That's "why" (the word they use) they recommend having an HTML in the first place--reader expectation! Regardless, the section is now changed and explicitly says the beginning of the book. https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A140JEYVI0P8KQ


.

You are exactly correct. I asked Amazon and a 2nd Tier responder emailed me today: All TOC must be front matter. New Guidelines. so. Had my formatter move all to the front. Done.


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## Jane Killick (Aug 29, 2014)

farrago said:


> I asked Amazon and a 2nd Tier responder emailed me today: All TOC must be front matter. New Guidelines.


Thanks for forwarding that on.

They issue new guidelines, don't let people know, then punish people for not implimenting them. This strikes me as unfair.

It would have been better to alert writers with an email and give them a deadline by which changes can be made.

Punish the scammers without notice, sure, but honest writers. This is another thing I need to find time to do. Le sigh.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I'm not in KU as I said, but I'm in various Facebook groups where others talk about promo, KU, TOC in the back  etc. I just heard of a book taken down on her Bookbub day due to TOC placement.

So I gave in.

I just updated all books and replaced my rear TOC with a map for the series instead. I can pretend this is an upgrade on MY terms, and not what it really is: bending to the will of the MAN


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## AaronShep (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm afraid I don't understand what the fuss is about, against placing the TOC at the beginning. It's not like each chapter has to be listed on a separate line. For a novel with 10 numbered chapters, here's what a TOC of mine would look like, with a separate link for each number:

Contents​
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10​
That's all you need! It doesn't even have to take a full page.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

AaronShep said:


> I'm afraid I don't understand what the fuss is about, against placing the TOC at the beginning. It's not like each chapter has to be listed on a separate line. For a novel with 10 numbered chapters, here's what a TOC of mine would look like, with a separate link for each number:
> 
> Contents​
> 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10​
> That's all you need! It doesn't even have to take a full page.


We know, and it looks horrible so we don't do it.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> We know, and it looks horrible so we don't do it.


LOL! I have never seen the point in putting a TOC anywhere for a novel without chapter titles. My latest series has chapter titles, a new thing for me to try out, but they are at the front. The idea is for the titles to tempt people to buy the book; they won't do that in the back.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

LilyBLily said:


> Since I don't do my own formatting, this discussion leaves me confused.
> 
> I found a TOC (that appeared to have links) at the end of one of my novels while using the Kindle Reader for PC. The formatter created that TOC and put it there. Am I supposed to contact the formatter and have that TOC moved, or eliminated? Is the book supposed to have a different kind of TOC?


It would be advisable. Amazon are obviously deciding to take down everything with a TOC at the back, so best to get in first.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Doglover said:


> LOL! I have never seen the point in putting a TOC anywhere for a novel without chapter titles. My latest series has chapter titles, a new thing for me to try out, but they are at the front. The idea is for the titles to tempt people to buy the book; they won't do that in the back.


Absolutely with you there. I use chapter titles, but before now I used them in short form in the front, and full in the back. I now have them in full in the front, and a nice map in the back. Double-whammy... sorta.


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

AaronShep said:


> I'm afraid I don't understand what the fuss is about, against placing the TOC at the beginning. It's not like each chapter has to be listed on a separate line. For a novel with 10 numbered chapters, here's what a TOC of mine would look like, with a separate link for each number:
> 
> Contents​
> 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10​
> That's all you need! It doesn't even have to take a full page.


If they want the TOC in the front, they can have it there. My issue was more that they removed a book from sale without warning because the TOC was in the "wrong" place.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi all. I'm looking into this and trying to speak with an Amazon contact about the issue.

Putting the ToC at the back is something I do in all my titles, and something I have always recommended in my books, blog posts, etc. It was standard "best practice" advice when I started in 2011, I've been doing it (and recommending it) ever since, and I know lots of other people have always recommended this approach too. There must be tens of thousands of books out there with rear ToCs, if not more. 

I'll be saying all that to Amazon and explaining why I think it's more reader friendly. I'll also be complaining in very strong language about these heavy handed Quality Notices and how it's targeting writers doing nothing really that wrong while egregious scammers go continually unpunished - guys engaged in KENP boosting scams, review purchasing, title keyword stuffing, etc. etc. Amazon doesn't seem to care much about that, and, indeed, sometimes even rewards the worst offenders with a fat Amazon Publishing contract. Which... yeah.

I think the whole situation surrounding Quality Notices is simply unacceptable. And I'll be blogging about it too - unless the conversation with Amazon goes better than I think it will...


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Holy hell! They're now awarding scammers publishing contracts?   FFS....


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I should have phrased that more carefully. I mean that, well, we all know there are writers out there who like to... color outside the lines, shall we say, and engage in ethically questionable behavior when it comes to getting an edge. I see these guys get picked up by Amazon Publishing all the time, when it is quite clear what's going on. Amazon doesn't seem to care. It's their store/publishing house and all that, it just sticks in the craw a little when they are so heavy handed with writers who aren't trying to game the system. 

It always seems like scammers/shady types come up with some ruse to squeeze a few extra sales which results in a negative reader experience (whether that's Hot New Releases squatting, title keyword stuffing, or whatever), and then Amazon combats it by coming up with a dumb automated system which catches a load of people in the net who aren't doing anything.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

dgaughran said:


> I should have phrased that more carefully. I mean that, well, we all know there are writers out there who like to... color outside the lines, shall we say, and engage in ethically questionable behavior when it comes to getting an edge. I see these guys get picked up by Amazon Publishing all the time, when it is quite clear what's going on.


You mean legit authors who might be using not quite kosher methods to get on the bestseller lists, rather than scamming per se? Makes me feel a little bit better, tho now I feel like I need to shore up my marketing technique....


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## JustWriting (Mar 5, 2013)

dgaughran said:


> Amazon combats it by coming up with a dumb automated system which catches a load of people in the net who aren't doing anything.


I think this is the crux of the problem. I'm sure most of us are in favour of Amazon combating the scammers, but it is beyond me why they choose the methods they do. There's nothing more infuriating than seeing the 'scam' books still online (and often high in the charts) while those authors who play fair and turn out good product are penalised.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

KaiW said:


> You mean legit authors who might be using not quite kosher methods to get on the bestseller lists, rather than scamming per se? Makes me feel a little bit better, tho now I feel like I need to shore up my marketing technique....


Exactly.

And it's nothing new - it has been this way since I started in 2011. Some authors have always engaged in shady stuff like continually republishing books to re-qualify for Hot New Releases, purchasing reviews, keyword stuffing in titles, trading off other authors' names by calling their MC James Clancy and having the book being written by Tom Patterson, etc. etc.

That kind of stuff doesn't seem to be any barrier to getting promo-ed by Amazon or a contract from Amazon Publishing, unfortunately. A policy which stands in marked contrast to the heavy handed approach with these Quality Notices to authors not engaging in this type of behaviour.

I've no problem saying that to Amazon. I'm not planning to name names or anything, it's not my job to police the Kindle Store, but I will mention the issue in general terms to try and get something down about these Quality Notices.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

There are two types of Table of Contents: enumerative and descriptive. I agree that the enumerative ones (_Chapter 1, Chapter 2, [...] Chapter 23_) are pointless, as well as wasteful of the sample space. So, if we now have to include a Table of Contents listing, make it a descriptive one, one that attaches a piece of text to the chapter. It can be very short (_"CHAPTER 1. I AM BORN."_) or one of the long Victorian ones (_"Chapter 12, in which Elizabeth discovers Genevieve's secret and must make a decision"_).

[/quote]

I don't think Chapter 1 chapter 2 is pointless. One of my books is a lengthy saga with quite a large cast of characters and with a family tree in the front of the book. Readers like to flip back and forth to the family tree, and may also like to check back on an earlier chapter. I find chapter headings often act as spoilers. One would just have to read the chapter headings for the whole story to be revealed.

If the TOC is in the back of the book how would readers know it was there?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I find chapter headings often act as spoilers. One would just have to read the chapter headings for the whole story to be revealed.


But this is a craft issue. If a chapter heading is a spoiler, whose fault is that? We can surely craft our stories better than that. I use things like 1 ~ Blind Hunter , 2 ~ Marine, 3 ~ A kind of Magic

It's just a name that is, hopefully, intriguing to see in the search inside. There's no need for them to be spoilers. I've seen books that use the name of the POV character, like 1 ~ Janet, 2~ Tom etc, though I don't see the point of that personally.

The TOC in the back idea was purely to conform to our belief that Amazon would ding us for not having a TOC (which they used to do around 2011, 2012) while also maximising the search inside. That maxing out was for shorter stories I know, but I did it too despite my books mostly being 100k plus. Later, the NCX became the important thing, and HTML TOC became a visual key in the search inside only--though by then I was already using front and back.

I've changed my books now, so it doesn't matter, BUT the principle does. Level playing field means everyone playing by the same rules (which in reality is fantasy) and I try to follow rules. My upbringing I guess.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

KaiW said:


> Holy hell! They're now awarding scammers publishing contracts?  FFS....


Maybe this is a good thing. Think of Josh "Fat Jew" Ostrovsky. He got a Comedy Central deal via essentially scamming the system (stealing jokes via social media). The extra spotlight caused an uproar and he got dropped like ten pounds of crap in a five pound bag.

Scams like this mainly work from the shadows. Shine enough light and all that "talent" gets exposed for the cockroaches they really are.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Wrecking Ball Technique to deal with customer complaints.

This isn't new.


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## Barbara Morgenroth (May 14, 2010)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> If the TOC is in the back of the book how would readers know it was there?


As far as I'm concerned it just needs to show up in the device's navigational section. Bookmarks, location, sync to furthest page, TOC. Unless it's someone's first time using a reader, I'm confident they know where these functions are. 
But if Amazon wants the bloody thing in the front, that's not a problem.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

Ava Glass said:


> This document:
> 
> https://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/AmazonKindlePublishingGuidelines.pdf


Thanks Ava.


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## Thisiswhywecan&#039;thavenicethings (May 3, 2013)

Just popping in to post (with permission) a copy of a letter an author friend of mine from another board received in response to his query to KDP support.



> I'm following up on the recent email communication you had with me yesterday regarding the rules and guidelines of where the TOC should be located.
> 
> I received the following response from one of our Kindle Content Quality supervisors:
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

ReGina W said:


> Just popping in to post (with permission) a copy of a letter an author friend of mine from another board received in response to his query to KDP support.


"Lately we have been getting several author contacts about this and other type of scenarios, so Kindle Content Quality added new guidelines about having TOC at the back of the book and other navigation issues to improve the customer experience."

I have no words for this 

Apparently, this is happening because of authors contacting KDP to complain about this and other types of scenarios -- whatever that means?

And then they change the guidelines (so this is indeed a new requirement) and instead of letting us know, they start pulling books down? 
Way to go, Amazon...


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

> "Lately we have been getting several author contacts about this and other type of scenarios, so Kindle Content Quality added new guidelines about having TOC at the back of the book and other navigation issues to improve the customer experience."


As my son says, there is neither enough head nor enough desk for the amount of headdesk this requires.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

Kyra Halland said:


> As my son says, there is neither enough head nor enough desk for the amount of headdesk this requires.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

New Assigned Reading:  Amazon's latest guidelines.

Sigh. The plotline sucks, you know? And character arcs? Hah!

Reformatting those old books just moved to the front of my To Do list.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Kyra Halland said:


> As my son says, there is neither enough head nor enough desk for the amount of headdesk this requires.


I love this.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

> "Lately we have been getting several author contacts about this and other type of scenarios, so Kindle Content Quality added new guidelines about having TOC at the back of the book and other navigation issues to improve the customer experience."


Ugh. Sometimes I could take a few of my fellows authors and give them a good shake. Ok some people were scamming, and that sucks. But you know what sucks more? When Amazon tries to fix a problem.

It's how we went from getting paid a decent rate per sale, to getting paid only for the pages that someone read.

For chrissakes -- quit worrying about what other people are doing. I know that will fall on deaf ears. Because everyone is so focused on catching cheaters, that they are willing to harm themselves to get even.

Scammers aren't going anywhere. They will find some other way to scam after this is over. And now people who write "choose your own ending" types of books will get screwed. Just like Children's book authors and short story writers got screwed in KU2.

For Pete's sake... when will we learn? Amazon doesn't fix problems with subtlety. The fix things by punishing the innocent along with guilty. Every fix takes a little bit more freedom from us as a whole.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

People reporting cheaters are NOT to blame for this. 

Scammers are responsible.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Monique said:


> People reporting cheaters are NOT to blame for this.
> 
> Scammers are responsible.


Exactly. Of course, it would help if Amazon wouldn't be so heavy-handed when dealing with them. It sucks when legit authors get caught in the middle. But this would not even be an issue if it wasn't for the scammers. Put the blame where it belongs!

Rue


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

ruecole said:


> Exactly. Of course, it would help if Amazon wouldn't be so heavy-handed when dealing with them. It sucks when legit authors get caught in the middle. But this would not even be an issue if it wasn't for the scammers. Put the blame where it belongs!
> 
> Rue


Ayup.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

JLCarver said:


> I'm not an Amazon police officer. My time is better spent writing and not worrying about somebody making a few extra bucks by back matter TOCs.


And that's fine. That's your choice.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

Urban Mogul said:


> Ugh. Sometimes I could take a few of my fellows authors and give them a good shake. Ok some people were scamming, and that sucks. But you know what sucks more? When Amazon tries to fix a problem.
> 
> It's how we went from getting paid a decent rate per sale, to getting paid only for the pages that someone read.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree. I mean, since when is it our business to police the Kindle store? If we let these things correct themselves in a more organic manner (for example, through customer complaints,) Amazon might not be so draconian in their actions. In the end, the scammers never seem to go away anyway.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Monique, you’re a waste of space.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Be sure to blame the readers too, not just fellow authors!  We've been happily reporting scammers for months.  In my opinion, if more people had started reporting the scammers when they first showed up, it wouldn't have blown up into the mess it is with honest authors getting caught in the crossfire.

For those that think they shouldn't "police" the Amazon store, are you not also customers/readers/buyers/borrowers?  Your buying/borrowing experience in the Amazon store hasn't been affected while browsing or unknowingly downloading some of this junk?

I would like to shake some people who continue to conflate sales with borrows, but we don't always get what we want, do we?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

First, we have NO idea what has actually caused this latest round of TOC notices. We can make assumptions, but they're still just assumptions. Y'all are pinning it all on a handful of author reports. Isn't it likely that there's far more to it than that? That either a large contingent of readers complained or the reason is something we don't know about yet. Since when has Amazon listened to authors?  The increase in the scams isn't just noticed by a handful of authors but readers as well. Not to mention, this TOC change doesn't address the real scamming issue. I'm starting to think it's related to something else entirely. But even if the cause of the crackdown is authors complaining about scammers; I'm fine with that. We do need to help to clean up our own community, imho. If people choose not to, that's certainly their right, but blaming the ugly landscape on people hoping to clean it up doesn't make sense to me. Some people like to keep their head down and if a "crime" is committed as long as it's not their money or their property or their life, they don't care. Some of us do. *shrug* And to all sorts of varying degrees. I don't seek out scammers to report, but if I come across it, I will. I think that's the right thing to do. I don't like cheaters. If I can help remove them, I'm happy to spend a few seconds doing so.

I understand the frustration with the way Amazon handles it. It's absurd that they are removing books from sale for a minor transgression without warning. That blows. But the people at fault are Amazon for their draconian implementation and the scammers who created the need for it.

By doing nothing, I feel somehow complicit. I realize not everyone feels that way.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

crebel said:


> Be sure to blame the readers too, not just fellow authors! We've been happily reporting scammers for months. In my opinion, if more people had started reporting the scammers when they first showed up, it wouldn't have blown up into the mess it is with honest authors getting caught in the crossfire.
> 
> For those that think they shouldn't "police" the Amazon store, are you not also customers/readers/buyers/borrowers? Your buying/borrowing experience in the Amazon store hasn't been affected while browsing or unknowingly downloading some of this junk?
> 
> I would like to shake some people who continue to conflate sales with borrows, but we don't always get what we want, do we?


Exactly! NOBODY wants to be the Amazon police. At the same time, trying to run or shop in a legitimate business in a neighborhood riddled with crack houses isn't a healthy viable long term strategy.

I don't have a problem if someone writes better than me or out-markets me, but when people point at my neighborhood and then decide to shop elsewhere because now they think we're all part of the problem, that irks me ever so slightly.

Not saying I'm part of the solution. Not even sure what the solution is, but doing nothing certainly isn't it.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

The thing about TOCs in the back is that they mess with the last page read. Amazon lists this as a reason why they want them in the front.

KU is a system where the last page read determines the amount of payout. If someone in KU has a TOC in the back (against guidelines), simply going to that TOC will trigger a full payout whether or not those pages were read. This is why Amazon is cracking down even if the books are innocuous.


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

JLCarver said:


> But why is it yours? What are you gaining by reporting books that really have nothing to do with your income stream? Maybe they make a couple extra cents through KU, but the number of "scammers" out there are a drop in the bucket in the larger picture.


In most instances, I'd agree with you that what other people do doesn't affect my business. This is different. The scammers absolutely affect the income of every author in KU because they dilute the pot by inflating the monthly pages read by millions. That changes the payout per page read for every author. Not only that, these scammers are getting All-Star Bonuses! That's not a "drop in the bucket." I'm nowhere near qualifying for an All-Star Bonus, but these scammers are taking that money from the people who earned it. I'd be pretty pissed if I found out I was #51 one month and missed out on that extra money because someone uploaded dozens of books that were scamming. At the very least Amazon should have taken a little bit of time to scan the list of All-Stars to make sure they weren't utilizing the scam tactic to get there.

As a reader, I've stopped searching the Amazon site for ebooks because it's a pita to wade through all the crap, which is sad because I used to be on there several times a week getting ebooks.


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## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

What's ironic is that all the Dorothy Thomson books are still up, yet other authors are having their books pulled for a rear TOC.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

I think I am getting it now. That the price per page is going down because the pot is being diluted? I think in that case then yes, something has to be done. To be fair though, to the scammers...who actually write proper books, some of them...all they have done is found a loophole and exploited it. I wouldn't vilify them. My concern would be with the system itself.
I am all for a fix. I have novels under a separate pen name and I would like the prize per page to go up. I wouldn't do what the scammers do, simply because it looks pretty naff having all that marketing junk at the front of a book. 
Dog eat dog world. All scrambling over each other to rise to the top. What happened about writing a great story? The art of it? Makes me kinda sad.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

What's ironic is that all the Dorothy Thomson books are still up, yet other authors are having their books pulled for a rear TOC.

This all sucks, it really does.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

M M said:


> What's ironic is that all the Dorothy Thomson books are still up, yet other authors are having their books pulled for a rear TOC.


At least one of them is down with a quality notice.


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

After spending the last 24 hours investigating, I have come to the conclusion it's a deluge bordering on a pandemic.

Do an Amazon search for "Victorian era romance." Or "duchess romance". Or anything keyword romance related.

Note the sheer number of pages. Note the file sizes. Note the internal book files. Note the keyword-stuffed titles. Note the repeated use of the same covers. Note the weight loss box sets in the author's profiles. Repeat ad nausea with similar keyword searches.

If you did a youtube search for kindle sales, you'll run across the core: people selling courses on how to game the system by using link switching and click farms. They're outsourcing it. They're seriously actually outsourcing the page reads of their own books because it's just that lucrative.

EDIT: Do that search for "victorian era romance" and *NOTE THE DATES OF RELEASE*


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

It's weird that people (including Amazon employees, apparently) are saying it's a new guideline. I can see the guideline in older versions of the document. 

To me, what's new is a directive to enforce it.


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

When you start running across some of these serial uploaders, you'll find multiple uploads per day across multiple accounts. Books copy-pasted with switched overs, some internal content rearranged. This is a day job for some people, which they outsource at the expense of everyone in KU.


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

I was under the impression it's a "few scammers" trying to gain "a few reads" here and there. I really was. I was like, "Nah, just shut up and keep writing." But then I did a little digging.

It's not a guy sitting and uploading. Nope, not at all. It's basically done on an industrial scale across multiple accounts. It's actual outsourcing of each task. Reviewing, clicking the link at beginning of the books to go to end, packaging, etc. The more you look into it, the more you'll realize just how big of a problem it has become. It's now so bad it has ruined some of the search algorithms for the affected genres. Further, I'm now firmly convinced it is the reason we have seen such a precipitous rate drop last month. Some of these industrial-scale uploaders managed to even snag all-star bonuses. *That's* how good they've become at it.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Sever Bronny said:


> After spending the last 24 hours investigating, I have come to the conclusion it's a deluge bordering on a pandemic.
> 
> Do an Amazon search for "Victorian era romance." Or "duchess romance". Or anything keyword romance related.
> 
> ...


I been saying this here for a while now, but I guess unless you are a heavy romance reader, you wouldn't have noticed so much. It has ruined my beloved genre. I cannot browse for books anymore. Done. I went back to reading authors I used to read with backlists and only stuff that readers I know recommend. And the books I already own. I used to browse in the sub categories of romance. It was one of my favorite things to do at the end of a long week, to just browse the new releases to see what jumps at me. Discover a author that has republished out of print stuff, oh look, a nice looking time travel romance, or a intriguing historical romance in a neat setting.

All that is done now for me. I do not browse anymore. If its not in my account yet, its at the library, with known authors/publishers or gets recommended by my reader friends.

It makes me really really sad what this scamming has done to my favorite genre. After all the grief we already get for reading romance, this is just another blow below the belt. That we are being used this way and again belittled.


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## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Sever Bronny said:


> I was under the impression it's a "few scammers" trying to gain "a few reads" here and there. I really was. I was like, "Nah, just shut up and keep writing." But then I did a little digging.
> 
> It's not a guy sitting and uploading. Nope, not at all. It's basically done on an industrial scale across multiple accounts. It's actual outsourcing of each task. Reviewing, clicking the link at beginning of the books to go to end, packaging, etc. The more you look into it, the more you'll realize just how big of a problem it has become. It's now so bad it has ruined some of the search algorithms for the affected genres. Further, I'm now firmly convinced it is the reason we have seen such a precipitous rate drop last month. Some of these industrial-scale uploaders managed to even snag all-star bonuses. *That's* how good they've become at it.


My great hope is that Amazon will task a few of their lawyers with bringing these scammers to court. It would not cost Amazon all that much, but it would cost the scammers dearly.

I wonder if there are any criminal actions involved here. As I understand it now, the scammers may be liable in U.S. civil court for damages. They are clearly violating the terms of service, which is similar to a breach of contract. But do their actions constitute fraud? 
They certainly made significant financial gains in addition to damaging Amazon's business model. If their activities short-circuited sales algorithms, then they did some damage indeed.

Here's hoping the Zon takes them to the woodshed.


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## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Atunah said:


> I been saying this here for a while now, but I guess unless you are a heavy romance reader, you wouldn't have noticed so much. It has ruined my beloved genre. I cannot browse for books anymore. Done. I went back to reading authors I used to read with backlists and only stuff that readers I know recommend. And the books I already own. I used to browse in the sub categories of romance. It was one of my favorite things to do at the end of a long week, to just browse the new releases to see what jumps at me. Discover a author that has republished out of print stuff, oh look, a nice looking time travel romance, or a intriguing historical romance in a neat setting.
> 
> All that is done now for me. I do not browse anymore. If its not in my account yet, its at the library, with known authors/publishers or gets recommended by my reader friends.
> 
> It makes me really really sad what this scamming has done to my favorite genre. After all the grief we already get for reading romance, this is just another blow below the belt. That we are being used this way and again belittled.


I'm sorry this is the case. This is heartbreaking for readers as well as authors.

If you haven't already, I encourage you to write Amazon Customer Service and tell them just what you posted here. What you describe is a worst case scenario for any business. And I can guarantee that you are not alone in feeling this way.

Scammers have ruined an entire segment of the ebook market on Amazon.

M


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## Monie (Oct 4, 2014)

C.F. said:


> As a reader, I've stopped searching the Amazon site for ebooks because it's a pita to wade through all the crap, which is sad because I used to be on there several times a week getting ebooks.


A couple people have pointed this out and I think this is important to note. Amazon use to my go to place to check out book list and random reading finds. But since some authors have started title stuffing, mis-categorizing, and scamming it has become hard to shop Amazon for books. This might be the reason that services like Bookbub have become popular. They save readers a trip to the unpleasant Kindle section on Amazon.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

So I got curious. I bought one of Dorothy Thomson's book (not borrowed.. I don't use KU).  And here are some objective obersavations. 

As a reader.. I would'nt recognize this as a scam. In fact it would seem like a great deal. Six whole books for $1.99 or in the case of KU FREE. The table of contents is actually really well designed visually.  Again, as a reader it would look like a convenience to me. I can easily navigate to a Novella in the collection and read it. 

Craftwise.. well the writing isn't bad. It's not great. But it's not terrible either. I've read worse. 

Ethics wise.. it's terrible. 

But to the average reader, who knows nothing about KU... the book is an overall pleasant experience. What's insidious about this, is how incredibly cleverly it's been executed. The average reader wouldn't feel scammed. In fact, the reader is getting nothing but benefits. 

Authors in KU are the ones losing out. As we've been reduced to fighting for money in a pool. Instead of simply being paid for each book we sell. 

But readers aren't going to report this. Because for them.. there's no real impact.


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## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

This is why I'm glad I am wide. I can't compete with factories of scammers that Amazon apparently has no system in place to vet.  It bothers me a lot, but at least I am paid honestly at the other sites, rather than sharing a pot with scammers.

And as a customer, I don't have to wade through a ton of crap to find something to read - only to find out weeks later that what I bought isn't as advertised.


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

JLCarver said:


> I've been looking at buying a new car. Specifically, I like the Nissan Rogue, and I've been looking at them online. Lately, every time I get in my current clunker of a car, and I go for a quick drive to the grocery store or I go to the gym, I swear to God, I see fifty Nissan Rogues on the streets. They're everywhere! Does that mean that hundreds more people are flocking to Nissan dealers to buy the Nissan Rogue? No. Those cars have always been there, and the only thing that's changed is that my brain is now more likely to notice them, because I'm subconsciously searching for them.
> 
> The scammers are always going to be there. There will always be the unscrupulous few who think they can make a quick buck on these things, and maybe some of them will succeed and laugh their way to the bank. It happens. It's a fact of our flawed world. (And all those people who are selling courses on how to run this scam, here's the kicker: they're scamming the would-be Amazon scammers, not so much scamming Amazon and screwing KU up for the rest of us.)
> 
> If you start looking for scammers, you're going to find them. You're going to start seeing them all over the place like I keep seeing Nissan Rogues clogging my city streets. Do you think Amazon doesn't see them? Do you think they're getting paid right away? Scammers are the reason we have a two-month payout window. Amazon is trying to catch them, because the people who game the system cheapen their product. It is in their best interest to weed out the bad seeds. They're trying to stop the payments before it reaches the bank. I'm sure they miss some. Some will slip through the cracks. But eventually, it will catch up to the scammers. This is why I think my energy is better spent writing and improving my product, minding my own house, and putting out something that is going to stick around for a while and not be a flash in the pan like these scammer books inevitably become.


Someone just stole your car. Are you going to report it, or buy another one and ignore it because there will always be thieves?


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

They aren't the unscrupulous few. They're tons of them. The lists are clogged with them. They are getting other authors' All-Star bonuses and lowering the per page payout. That's a pretty big deal.


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## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

JLCarver said:


> That's not even close to the same thing.


It's exactly the same thing.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

For someone whose time is better spent writing, improving your product and minding your own house, you've spent a lot of time here doing the opposite. It's easy to get sucked into threads, but are you practicing what you're preaching? I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you don't want to report them, that's fine. But I'm not sure why you're spending so much time here and minding my house (telling me what I should be be doing with my time.) I don't mean this in an aggressive way, but do you see what I mean?


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

*sigh* Yes, yes. You all are right. I give up.  

Ya’ll a bunch of idiots.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

JLCarver said:


> That's not even close to the same thing.


Nor was your example remotely close to the KU issue.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

We're right! She said it.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Today's not a writing day for me. So... I'll make another post .

I get what J.L was trying to say. I'm also assuming that I feel similarly to her (?) in some ways. I don't think JL deserves some of the very pointed and snarky comments that are being tossed her way.

Save that vitriol for the scammers. And maybe even toss some Amazon's way. *Because basing payout and bonuses on the number of pages read, is what caused this mess.* Not anything that JL said.

I suspect Amazon will move to correct this. And I'm not looking forward to it. Common sense should tell all of us, simply removing the books that employ these tactics won't fix it. There will be a hard fix and as usual the innocent will suffer along with the guilty.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

I wonder if amazon would have taken care of this by now if the scammers had wrecked the search results for "thrillers" or "military SF" instead of "regency romance."


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

M M said:


> This is why I'm glad I am wide. I can't compete with factories of scammers that Amazon apparently has no system in place to vet. It bothers me a lot, but at least I am paid honestly at the other sites, rather than sharing a pot with scammers.


If you're one of the lucky ones being paid fairly out of the Google Play pot because you have books up there, then good for you. Google Play is closed to new accounts, and has been now for months because -- at least in part and as they've publicly stated-- of scammers.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

I've got no problems with Amazon removing scammers, for the record. That's a good move. But the TOC in the back isn't even a common one, it's usually a link to the back for a riddle answer or sweepstakes, or a link to a book that's the last of 20 or something. They're missing the barn with their bazooka and taking out the grazing cattle all too often, pretty much as expected.

I can't wait for the rate to jump now that Amazon is cracking down, though. How is everybody going to spend their extra thirteen-hundredths of a cent per page? Even if it goes up more than that, does anybody really think Amazon doesn't manipulate the rate to exactly what they want it to be? 

I hope they never get it into their pointy heads that the best way to remove link-to-back scamming is to ban all links. Because that's what they'd do, before they'd quality control enough just to catch the violations, you realize.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Urban Mogul said:


> So I got curious. I bought one of Dorothy Thomson's book (not borrowed.. I don't use KU). And here are some objective obersavations.
> 
> As a reader.. I would'nt recognize this as a scam. In fact it would seem like a great deal. Six whole books for $1.99 or in the case of KU FREE. The table of contents is actually really well designed visually. Again, as a reader it would look like a convenience to me. I can easily navigate to a Novella in the collection and read it.
> 
> ...


Did you see the fake review blurbs in the frontmatter? The guy is pretending Romance Times reviewed the titles.


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## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

PhoenixS said:


> If you're one of the lucky ones being paid fairly out of the Google Play pot because you have books up there, then good for you. Google Play is closed to new accounts, and has been now for months because -- at least in part and as they've publicly stated-- of scammers.


This is true, but at least at GP the scammer payments weren't made from a pot at the expense of legitimate authors. I do agree though, that Amazon, GP and the rest have the same potential for fraud. Because that's what it is. They each need to mind their own store and not rely on others to report issues like these.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

M M said:


> This is true, but at least at GP the scammer payments weren't made from a pot at the expense of legitimate authors. I do agree though, that Amazon, GP and the rest have the same potential for fraud. Because that's what it is. They each need to mind their own store and not rely on others to report issues like these.


You're mistaken. We had a portion of our catalog on GP. Scammers were selling books (at least a dozen that I personally saw) by our authors that we did not have on GP. We caught one person -- early, thankfully, BECAUSE WE REPORTED THE SCAMMER -- selling books of ours that were in Select. Not only were they making money on books by our authors without authorization and without any of that money going to our authors, our catalog of Select titles was at risk of being booted at best out of Select and losing the borrow money they'd been making or at worst being booted off Amazon altogether. The scammers were selling books to customers who we were prepping to buy from the authors by releasing our inventory on GP a few strategic books at a time. Not exactly the same thing as the KU pot, but the same kind of loss in principle.

Legitimate authors' rights were being abused. We were speaking out about it. And GP took the ultimate bludgeon to the problem by shutting down the site to new accounts.


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## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

The copyright infringement is also bad. Maybe I could have worded it better but my point was that if Amazon is paying only a finite amount from a pot, they should ensure their system has oversight and action is taken against scammers.  Exactly what I expect from Google Play and all other vendors.  They are equally at fault for scammers perpetuating abuse in their stores if they don't do anything about it. Bad is bad.


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## TessOliver (Dec 2, 2010)

Google Play had shown a lot of promise in the beginning, but it spiraled out of control fast. 

I might be in the minority with this, but I would be willing to suffer a longer review time on my books if it meant that scams would be stopped at the gate. It might even stop legit books from being pulled once they are already on sale. KDP could warn us if there was something that needed to be changed before it went live. Sure would save people from the stress of having a book taken off sale without warning. 

I confess that I have stomped, snorted and wrung my hands when a title took longer than 24 hours to go live, but if I knew what to expect, for example four days in review, I could plan ahead for the delay. I don't know if that would help the problem or not. I'm basically just thinking aloud on my computer.


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## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

TessOliver said:


> Google Play had shown a lot of promise in the beginning, but it spiraled out of control fast.
> 
> I might be in the minority with this, but I would be willing to suffer a longer review time on my books if it meant that scams would be stopped at the gate. It might even stop legit books from being pulled once they are already on sale. KDP could warn us if there was something that needed to be changed before it went live. Sure would save people from the stress of having a book taken off sale without warning.
> 
> I confess that I have stomped, snorted and wrung my hands when a title took longer than 24 hours to go live, but if I knew what to expect, for example four days in review, I could plan ahead for the delay. I don't know if that would help the problem or not. I'm basically just thinking aloud on my computer.


I agree with you. Apple reviews each and every book. I haven't heard of problems of this scale in their store.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

M M said:


> I agree with you. Apple reviews each and every book. I haven't heard of problems of this scale in their store.


Because Apple is not Amazon and doesn't resort to kneejerk reactions, nor relies on customers to do their vetting for them.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

JLCarver said:


> But why is it yours? What are you gaining by reporting books that really have nothing to do with your income stream? Maybe they make a couple extra cents through KU, but the number of "scammers" out there are a drop in the bucket in the larger picture.


The Koziel clown in the other thread was getting 1 million page reads PER DAY. Do you really think that "couple extra cents" doesn't affect the size of everyone else's payout? That it doesn't endanger the whole system? I believe, 100%, that it does. If you don't, that is absolutely fine, and I admire those who can be Zen about this, and I envy them their calm. Me? I am pissed.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

JLCarver said:


> I've heard that bandied about before, how these apparent scammers are getting all these extra bonuses, but no one has ever given any proof. Maybe I missed the proof, and that's entirely possible.


You did. There was a link about a week ago to one of these scammers, and a notice on the product page that the author was a KU All-Star. My friends who got low-tier or no All-Star bonuses were significantly ticked off. When a few million pages reads in a month doesn't get you a bonus and it always has, then yeah, seeing some guy get literally 750K-1M page reads a day and posting on YouTube to teach everyone the same scam can make you see red.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Ava Glass said:


> I wonder if amazon would have taken care of this by now if the scammers had wrecked the search results for "thrillers" or "military SF" instead of "regency romance."


+ 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> My great hope is that Amazon will task a few of their lawyers with bringing these scammers to court. It would not cost Amazon all that much, but it would cost the scammers dearly.
> 
> I wonder if there are any criminal actions involved here. As I understand it now, the scammers may be liable in U.S. civil court for damages. They are clearly violating the terms of service, which is similar to a breach of contract. But do their actions constitute fraud?
> They certainly made significant financial gains in addition to damaging Amazon's business model. If their activities short-circuited sales algorithms, then they did some damage indeed.
> ...


I hate to throw a wet blanket on this, but it will never happen. What argument can Amazon give a court? That they were negligent in checking the content? That they themselves made it possible? No, they'll have to revamp the computer system that counts page reads. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a 90K word novel can't be read 2.4 seconds after it was downloaded. Each page of the book has to be accessed and a prescribed amount of time on each page, not just the last page.


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I hate to throw a wet blanket on this, but it will never happen. What argument can Amazon give a court? That they were negligent in checking the content? That they themselves made it possible? No, they'll have to revamp the computer system that counts page reads. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a 90K word novel can't be read 2.4 seconds after it was downloaded. Each page of the book has to be accessed and a prescribed amount of time on each page, not just the last page.


They did sue those sites selling fake product reviews, but yeah your points are well made.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

M M said:


> I agree with you. Apple reviews each and every book. I haven't heard of problems of this scale in their store.


To do the same, Amazon would have to staff KDP with more than a skeleton crew of overworked, non-empowered people.


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## Ann Grant (Jul 16, 2015)

Atunah said:


> I been saying this here for a while now, but I guess unless you are a heavy romance reader, you wouldn't have noticed so much. It has ruined my beloved genre. I cannot browse for books anymore. Done. I went back to reading authors I used to read with backlists and only stuff that readers I know recommend. And the books I already own. I used to browse in the sub categories of romance. It was one of my favorite things to do at the end of a long week, to just browse the new releases to see what jumps at me. Discover a author that has republished out of print stuff, oh look, a nice looking time travel romance, or a intriguing historical romance in a neat setting.
> 
> All that is done now for me. I do not browse anymore. If its not in my account yet, its at the library, with known authors/publishers or gets recommended by my reader friends.
> 
> It makes me really really sad what this scamming has done to my favorite genre. After all the grief we already get for reading romance, this is just another blow below the belt. That we are being used this way and again belittled.


I have a short story in an anthology that ended a promotion today. I checked the categories and ranks a couple of times this afternoon. At one point the anthology looked like the only normal book on a chart page that lists 20 at a time. I felt like I was wading through crap with hip boots on. I knew there was spam on Amazon, but this blows my mind. And last week I uploaded a new version of a book to correct three typos, worried somebody might complain and get the book blocked, and the spammers are running spam education videos on youtube.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

Ann Grant said:


> I have a short story in an anthology that ended a promotion today. I checked the categories and ranks a couple of times this afternoon. At one point the anthology looked like the only normal book on a chart page that lists 20 at a time. I felt like I was wading through crap with hip boots on. I knew there was spam on Amazon, but this blows my mind. And last week I uploaded a new version of a book to correct three typos, worried somebody might complain and get the book blocked, and the spammers are running spam education videos on youtube.


I made the mistake of releasing the first book for my pen name at the beginning of March, and I'm seeing similar in its categories, especially when it's filtered for new releases. A lot of this is keyword-stuffed titles and identical covers; I haven't gone through and checked for more dodgy stuff yet. A TOC at the back isn't on my list of things to look for.

I've never had a book bomb so badly on its release. My publishing standards (cover, blurb, writing, keywords) are about what they always were. I'm not saying I'm doing everything perfectly, but zero sales in a popular genre? That gives me pause when it comes to releasing my next novel into Select, because where is the visibility boost if people can't find anything on Amazon? Atunah has stopped browsing the site for new releases; how many other readers are doing the same?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

My Dog's Servant said:


> Betsy....I remember Ann has commented before about the back matter throwing off her sense of how much is left to read. Do you think that's a common annoyance for many readers?
> 
> Putting first chapters of other books at the back of a title is a time-honored tradition in traditional publishing (something a low midlister, such as I was, once hoped to achieve). I've experimented with it with two recent ebooks and can't see that it's made any difference on sales of the books with the demo chapters. Based on Ann's comments in other threads, I'd been thinking about taking them out again to just clean up the file. Sounds like that's a good idea, huh?


Coming way late to this thread . . but since my name was invoked, I thought I'd comment on this from back on page 2. . . . though I do see that Atunah has addressd the back-matter issue a bit. I haven't read past page 2 yet, though . . . apologies if this is old news. 

FWIW, ToC at the back is NOT generally an issue as it's generally not particularly long. What is annoying is if people, without making it obvious, have large amounts of back matter -- excerpts from other books, etc. You're reading along and think you have a good chunk of the book left and it just ends!  Leaves a bad impression on me as a reader. I try to remember to check but if I've read several that have been no problem I might get out of the habit so it can, occasionally, hit me by surprise. Anything more than 5% to 10% of the book being back matter that is UNRELATED to the actual book is annoying.

Also, FWIW, I can't remember the last time I noticed that the ToC was actually at the back of a book. Like Atunah I start at the cover: open kindle book wherever it 'starts' and immediately go to the cover and start paging through. If I don't see one, I don't go looking. If I saw a link I wouldn't click it. I don't care about the ToC as "Table of Contents" but only to the extent that it makes the 'page flip' and 'time in chapter' things work.

But I do think there usually is a ToC, even if they're just numbered. If there's a PROBLEM with the ToC _being_ in the front it's more related to the sample size. Early on there were books that had so much front matter -- or maybe it was just formatted badly -- that the 10% sample was finished before you'd been able to read more than a few paragraphs of the actual book. THAT is why people started putting them at the back -- so the sample would contain MORE of the story. That said, I think that problem was more caused by extraneous front matter than just a ToC

I like to use 'time in chapter' because, when I'm reading before bed, I can judge whether I'll be able to stay awake long enough to finish a chapter or if I should just give up for the night.   The page flip, which lets you flip through quickly without losing your place -- much like you can with a paper book -- is useful if it feels like I'm getting to the end but there seems to be a lot of book left -- I can look to see if there is a lot of back matter. Or when I'm getting bored and I want to try to get a sense of whether I should keep reading or give up entirely.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

CoryODoole said:


> Why would anyone need a TOC on fiction, much less a short story? Kindle remembers the place I left off, so ... why?


See my just previous post . . . . don't know how but somehow there has to be something that tells the kindle where the chapters are so that I, the reader, can use the features of the kindle. Such as knowing how long to the end of the chapter, and being able to flip through if I choose to.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Terrific article by David Gaughran on the subject:

https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2016/03/11/amazon-takes-aim-at-scammers-but-hits-authors/


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Blah. I am just going to email Jeff B.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2016)

Ros_Jackson said:


> I made the mistake of releasing the first book for my pen name at the beginning of March, and I'm seeing similar in its categories, especially when it's filtered for new releases. A lot of this is keyword-stuffed titles and identical covers; I haven't gone through and checked for more dodgy stuff yet. A TOC at the back isn't on my list of things to look for.
> 
> I've never had a book bomb so badly on its release. My publishing standards (cover, blurb, writing, keywords) are about what they always were. I'm not saying I'm doing everything perfectly, but zero sales in a popular genre? That gives me pause when it comes to releasing my next novel into Select, because where is the visibility boost if people can't find anything on Amazon? Atunah has stopped browsing the site for new releases; how many other readers are doing the same?


I've had the exact opposite experience. I released my new book in KU as an experiment (first time for me) last week and it's doing amazingly well. In fact, it's my best release ever and I'm not even promoting it in any special way. It kind of makes me sad because I'm not a fan of subscription services at all.


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## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

SummerNights said:


> I've had the exact opposite experience. I released my new book in KU as an experiment (first time for me) last week and it's doing amazingly well. In fact, it's my best release ever and I'm not even promoting it in any special way. It kind of makes me sad because I'm not a fan of subscription services at all.


This is great to hear. I always love to read about authors meeting with success.


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## SophiaDan (Mar 11, 2016)

Interesting I use rear TOC with no problems.  I will be removing it (3 books) just in case.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2016)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> This is great to hear. I always love to read about authors meeting with success.


Thank you so much!


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## mythsnake (Oct 22, 2014)

I don't have html TOCs in any of my books, but the one title I have in KU does have a glossary of Nahuatl terms, and I'd taken the time to link the first usage of each word in the book back to the glossary, for reader ease if they wanted to consult it. But now I had to take that out so I don't get a nastygram from the Zon (or getting people thinking I'm trying to scam page reads)


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

mythsnake said:


> I don't have html TOCs in any of my books, but the one title I have in KU does have a glossary of Nahuatl terms, and I'd taken the time to link the first usage of each word in the book back to the glossary, for reader ease if they wanted to consult it. But now I had to take that out so I don't get a nastygram from the Zon (or getting people thinking I'm trying to scam page reads)


Wait. Slow down. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Footnotes, Glossaries, and other intellectual features are NOT included in this. I've not heard a single complaint about them. And in fact, scammers that are doing this aren't writing books with that level of sophistication. If you feel nervous you can write KDP support and ask them about your glossary. But there's no way Amazon should or would crack down on something like that.

I know it's good to be aware and proactive. But removing a very useful feature from your book, doesn't seem like a wise move. At least not until you hear something directly from KDP.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Urban Mogul said:


> Wait. Slow down. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Footnotes, Glossaries, and other intellectual features are NOT included in this. I've not heard a single complaint about them. And in fact, scammers that are doing this aren't writing books with that level of sophistication. If you feel nervous you can write KDP support and ask them about your glossary. But there's no way Amazon should or would crack down on something like that.
> 
> I know it's good to be aware and proactive. But removing a very useful feature from your book, doesn't seem like a wise move. At least not until you hear something directly from KDP.


Er. I have ZERO trust that a KDP representative at the other end of the "contact us" button will actually 1. know what's going on, 2. reply with the truth. I even have zero trust that most people in the Amazon help centre will know the exact details and/or interpret them correctly. I have zero trust that if three of us emailed them with the same question, we'd get three answers with the same information. Most likely, we'd get three versions ranging from "it's OK" to "this is prohibited under the new TOS".

As I said upthread, but I will say it again, there are two ways Amazon can solve this mess, but I also have zero trust that they will actually do this, simply because they need to prove that they're Not Apple:

1. Have each submission vetted by a Real Person (TM) along the lines of Apple and Kobo.
2. Abandon Select for ebooks, because the guaranteed payout is what creates the issues.

But they won't do this. As for me, this entire thread is a giant illustration why you should go wide, yesterday, and why you should work on getting people on your mailing list and control your own audience over trying to rely on Amazon to do your marketing.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

SummerNights said:


> I've had the exact opposite experience. I released my new book in KU as an experiment (first time for me) last week and it's doing amazingly well. In fact, it's my best release ever and I'm not even promoting it in any special way. It kind of makes me sad because I'm not a fan of subscription services at all.


Congratulations! That gives me hope that it's something I've done wrong and can fix, rather than a distortion of the whole market.

However, just so we're comparing apples to apples, are you talking about a new pen name with no crossover from your old audience? Because that's what makes my release a test of not just the genre but the whole Select/Amazon system. I wanted, as an experiment, to let the new release list and the algos to do the heavy lifting for the first month so that I could get a realistic idea of how good the niche is. That's why I've done no external paid-for advertising. It's early days and I need to fix my keywords, but it's not looking good.


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## mythsnake (Oct 22, 2014)

Urban Mogul said:


> Wait. Slow down. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Footnotes, Glossaries, and other intellectual features are NOT included in this. I've not heard a single complaint about them. And in fact, scammers that are doing this aren't writing books with that level of sophistication. If you feel nervous you can write KDP support and ask them about your glossary. But there's no way Amazon should or would crack down on something like that.
> 
> I know it's good to be aware and proactive. But removing a very useful feature from your book, doesn't seem like a wise move. At least not until you hear something directly from KDP.


I may have been hasty, out fear for Amazon's overreaction tendencies, but I also feel itchy about the fact that anyone who clicks the links to go directly to the glossary automatically triggers a full read. I hope Amazon fixes this glitch with their page reads so I can put it back without challenging my sense of fair play. The glossary is still there if people want to navigate to it (and I added a note on the first page to that affect), but it just won't be as convenient to readers as it was before this mess.


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