# Printing fiction on white paper? Really?



## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

It's an easy mistake to make during the ordering process of your self-published book - printing fiction on white paper! In most circumstances I think all fictional work should be printed on cream paper and all non-fiction on white paper (I think poetry can get away with being either).

I think the only other exception to this might be young children's books (also usually printed in larger books).

I'm not sure why this is important but I think it makes a big difference to the finished product.
What do you think?


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## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

White paper looks amateurish to me. Plus the glare ! The glare on the beach is blinding, even with  s! The horror! 

But I'm curious to learn others' opinions on the matter.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Obviously, you have never read small press anthologies.

Seriously, wars have started over a less divisive subject than this.

Message: who cares?


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

Who cares? I would like to think that as an indie author you should care about every aspect of your book - you should care a lot. I've seen hundreds of books from indie authors that don't care and I don't care to buy them.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

It's certainly something that crossed my mind when I was looking over CreateSpace's options. Cream gets my vote, at least for fiction.

The point about glare is is a good one! I probably wouldn't have thought of that, given the pains I take to avoid the Yellow Face...it burns us, Precious.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

I choose cream, because I'd heard it was the more popular, but when my sister saw it, she couldn't understand why. She pulled out the nearest Harry Potter and showed me it was white. I think it's a personal preference really.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Rinelle Grey said:


> I choose cream, because I'd heard it was the more popular, but when my sister saw it, she couldn't understand why. She pulled out the nearest Harry Potter and showed me it was white. I think it's a personal preference really.


This.

That's why I'm saying "who cares"? Do whatever you like best. Many books are printed on white paper.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

The white just doesn't look like a real book to me.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

If I could I would get Create Space to print in grey text on black paper. 

But seriously I have seen traditional published books in all shades of white/cream. It just personal preference.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

LYC_Ryan said:


> I'm not sure why this is important but I think it makes a big difference to the finished product.
> What do you think?


White paper is necessary on nonfiction if the nonfiction book features photos. It creates contrast that improves the legibility of the photos.

Almost no fiction utilizes photos, so the concern is more about legibility and eye-comfort while reading. Cream is used for that reason in most fiction.


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

Yeah white is very glaring, especially if you are reading the book in the sunshine. I'm struggling to recall seeing any traditionally published fiction on white paper. At the end of the day there's no rule saying you can't but then if 99% of all fiction is published in cream and you want your book to feel like a traditionally published novel then surely you should go with cream no matter what.


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> White paper is necessary on nonfiction if the nonfiction book features photos. It creates contrast that improves the legibility of the photos.
> 
> Almost no fiction utilizes photos, so the concern is more about legibility and eye-comfort while reading. Cream is used for that reason in most fiction.


Yeah really good point about the use of pictures and my eyes feel far more comfortable reading from cream paper.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I just had a look on my shelf and i have quite a number of books that were printed on white paper, including the small press anthologies I already mentioned, as well as all trade paperback format books I have.

No matter what you do, a self-published book will be distinguishable from a mass paperback to those who know. Whether it be the cover, the layout or the paper type, and the fact that it's got "createspace" printed on the last page, people who go looking for it will be able to tell.

I'm not saying that this difference is a bad difference. It's just a difference.

This is the charm of a self-published book: that it is a little bit different. People are buying a niche product created with love and care. I am not ashamed that it is a little bit different from a mass-printed trade-published book. I don't want to sell it as such.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

LYC_Ryan said:


> Who cares? I would like to think that as an indie author you should care about every aspect of your book - you should care a lot. I've seen hundreds of books from indie authors that don't care and I don't care to buy them.


Dude, too much coffee?
Where does one go to see hundreds of indie books before buying them? 'Cause I'd sure like to get my titles added to that shelf!


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## hyh (Jul 21, 2013)

The problem is when cream isn't really cream.

I've just been through this dilemma myself as I'm about to upload my first book to Createspace soon and I went through the archives here and also did a general Google search and turned up a lot of complaints from people saying that the "Createspace cream" is actually more "yellow" and can make the book look really ugly. I even did a cross-reference on Google Images and found pictues people had posted of CS "cream" compared to other papers...and it did look very yellow to me. 

So for that reason, I've decided to go with white paper for CS but possibly cream for Lightning Source, which seems to have more reliable "cream" paper.

Hsin-Yi


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

Quiss said:


> Dude, too much coffee?
> Where does one go to see hundreds of indie books before buying them? 'Cause I'd sure like to get my titles added to that shelf!


I'm referring to the care taken in both print an ebook. Although I've always loved the idea of a book store that only stocked and sold indie books!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

H.Y. Hanna (Big Honey Dog Mysteries) said:


> I've just been through this dilemma myself as I'm about to upload my first book to Createspace soon and I went through the archives here and also did a general Google search and turned up a lot of complaints from people saying that the "Createspace cream" is actually more "yellow" and can make the book look really ugly. I even did a cross-reference on Google Images and found pictues people had posted of CS "cream" compared to other papers...and it did look very yellow to me.


I've put CS cream against trad-pubbed cream papers, side-by-side and noticed minimal, if any, difference.

Keep in mind that some folks who write such things have an innate anti-Amazon (and therefore anti-CreateSpace) bias.

Not to say that all cream papers are created equal, but the differences can indeed be exaggerated. I've seen folks present "photo evidence" of their yellowed cream paper and it becomes very obvious that their photo-taking has featured manipulated lighting, poor exposure, and even in some cases "Photoshopping" to produce the desired effect.

Folks tend to think "photos never lie," but it really depends on what you're looking for. Revealing true skin tone, for example, is as easily manipulated as paper color.

Not many people may remember this, but either Time or Newsweek got in a LOT of hot water after O.J. Simpson was arrested for the Brown-Goldman murders, because they ran his booking photo and it was very darkened and made O.J. look especially sinister. However, the very same week, another news magazine ran the exact same booking photo without the adjustments, and it looked much more like the O.J. most people were familiar with. Opened up a whole debate in the 1990s about "Photoshopping" of photos in publishing. (As well as a topic about the racial aspects of that choice.)

And I bring this up not to side-spin this thread into an "O.J. debate," just using it as an example of how photos don't always "tell the truth." They can be manipulated.

In person, I notice very little difference. And as someone who's been around older books all his life (I started out as a bookmobile addict in my small town, since the library it visited from was about eight miles away) I can tell you that ALL cream-colored paper yellows somewhat with age. The older the book, the yellower the paper. Even to the extent that some very old books can take on almost a tan/brownish hue. It's just the nature of the paper.

And yes, I realize this may spark a lot of "Oh, but CS cream is WAY worse and yellows WAY sooner," but I'm stating right now... I will not engage in that debate. Done it before, and no interest in rehashing old material.

But since you're new, Hanna, I did want to clue you in that the whole "CS cream is horrible and yellow-y" thing is blown out of proportion.

And people will disagree with me on that, but consider their agenda.

That's all.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Quiss said:


> Where does one go to see hundreds of indie books before buying them? 'Cause I'd sure like to get my titles added to that shelf!


Any and every dealer room at a book conference or convention!


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## Catana (Mar 27, 2012)

So obviously, the hundreds of thousands of novels printed on white paper by trad publishers are just amateurish. Seriously, from some of the complaints I've seen, sometimes I wonder if indie writers have even read much, other than their own work and that of their friends.


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> I just had a look on my shelf and i have quite a number of books that were printed on white paper, including the small press anthologies I already mentioned, as well as all trade paperback format books I have.
> 
> No matter what you do, a self-published book will be distinguishable from a mass paperback to those who know. Whether it be the cover, the layout or the paper type, and the fact that it's got "createspace" printed on the last page, people who go looking for it will be able to tell.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. But when you create something with 'love and care' that usually involves caring - and caring about little details like what paper stock your work will be printed on and not left to the toss of a coin. For me, presentation is a massive part of my final decision in whether I purchase a product or not because it usually reflects how much care went into the product itself (but then I'm particularly crazy for detail!).

I'm not saying that white paper alone would put me off (indeed you usually can't tell when you order the book online) but it could tip the scales if I was buying from a bookstore and the cover was average as well.



> The problem is when cream isn't really cream.
> 
> I've just been through this dilemma myself as I'm about to upload my first book to Createspace soon and I went through the archives here and also did a general Google search and turned up a lot of complaints from people saying that the "Createspace cream" is actually more "yellow" and can make the book look really ugly. I even did a cross-reference on Google Images and found pictues people had posted of CS "cream" compared to other papers...and it did look very yellow to me.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, I wasn't aware of this. If that's the case it's a real shame and indeed could force an indie author to go with the white paper. The ideal colour is a very light cream I believe.


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## SandraMiller (May 10, 2011)

Obviously, good books of either kind can and have been printed on lots of different shades of paper.

But from CS's options, I prefer the cream.  All of my books are set up on the cream.

When I set up the Music Mage, I specified cream.  Then when I ordered my first copy (the proof had been fine, this was the first production copy) they printed it on white.

Honestly, I wondered if I should even bring it up to them.  Really, with the cover it has, the white paper looked awesome when you were holding the book in your hands.

Then I tried to read it.  I'm migraine-prone, and something about those black letters on that particular white page really set me off.  It probably doesn't bother anybody else, but I hated the idea that it might.  So I contacted them.  I wanted to be sure no future orders would be filled with white paper.

They didn't seem to believe me at first.  But I sent them a photo of the book, next to one of my cream copies, and they not only verified the book was set up correctly, but sent me a new copy to replace mine.  And it was printed on cream paper.  I've never seen them make that mistake again.

So it all ended well.  But I kept the white copy...it's the one I have on my personal display shelf, because it's just so darn pretty.

As long as I don't have to read it


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

> I've put CS cream against trad-pubbed cream papers, side-by-side and noticed minimal, if any, difference.
> 
> Keep in mind that some folks who write such things have an innate anti-Amazon (and therefore anti-CreateSpace) bias.
> 
> Not to say that all cream papers are created equal, but the differences can indeed be exaggerated. I've seen folks present "photo evidence" of their yellowed cream paper and it becomes very obvious that their photo-taking has featured manipulated lighting, poor exposure, and even in some cases "Photoshopping" to produce the desired effect.


That's reassuring!



> So obviously, the hundreds of thousands of novels printed on white paper by trad publishers are just amateurish.


Again, I honestly can't recall seeing a traditionally published fiction book on pure white paper - light cream perhaps but not white paper. I don't read as much as probably most people here so I'm tempted to have a walk through Waterstones or WHSmith just to check.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

LYC_Ryan said:


> That's reassuring!
> 
> Again, I honestly can't recall seeing a traditionally published fiction book on pure white paper - light cream perhaps but not white paper. I don't read as much as probably most people here so I'm tempted to have a walk through Waterstones or WHSmith just to check.


I suggest you do that very thing.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

I had to print my books on white paper because I wanted the smallest book (5.06 x 7.81) available that was the closest to mass-market paperback size. And honestly, I have quite a few trad. pubbed fiction books that are on white paper. The paper simply yellows/creams over time.

But I do want to try the cream option and see what it looks like, so I will probably do that when I release my omnibus in TPB form.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Wow, I never knew there were any distinctions made about cream vs. white.  Now that I think about it, I do see a bit of a pattern.  But I can't imagine caring...


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

Notebook paper. Anyone?


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Part of the fun of self-publishing (and self formatting and self designing) is controlling all the small things.  Now when I walk into a book store and browse the shelves, I can shake my head at the clumsy margins, poor kerning, and blinding white paper chosen by the so-called professional "designer."


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

In a random sample taken 2 minutes ago, cookbooks are generally printed on bright white paper.  Jimmy Buffett was on ecru, Michael Chricton on cream and Dan Brown had one white and one cream.  A small press book was on white (but not bright white) and the Complete Cat was on ecru.  Craft books are also on white.
I hope this helps.


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## Redbloon (Mar 27, 2013)

Something else to throw into the mix. People with dyslexia find it easier to read against a yellowish background - which is why Barrington Stokes, who specialise in books for dyslexia, print on paper ranging from mid cream through to yellow. The font is also important I believe. 

Disclaimer - there are other publishers of dyslexia friendly books.

Just checked my bookshelf and all fiction books were printed on various shades of cream. I had just never noticed before.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

This is interesting.  It appears that we now have a generation of reader/writers coming along that doesn't know, understand or like the conventions of publishing, basically, from the time of Gutenberg.  They read most of their books online or from a device, and encounter websites with all sorts of background/text coloration.  They rarely go to bookstores, which are disappearing, or the public library, which is cutting back on funding.  Wikipedia has replaced reference books.

I'll bet few of you remember the Britannica salesman coming to your home to sell your parents a set of encyclopedias to help educate their children, to get ahead in life. 

Self-publishing gives the writer wide choices because the writer bears to cost of publication.  Thus you have the cream or white check boxes, and also, choice of fonts.  Historically, almost all books have been printed on white paper in serif fonts (typefaces) e.g., Times New Roman.  Sans serif fonts, like Helvetica, may be preferable online, but serif fonts still rule on paper.

The books that most likely were printed with cream stock were short books like The Prophet, by Kahlil Gibran, a favorite of older adolescents, say, in a hardback edition by Knopf under the Borzoi imprint, in sewn signatures.  The cream stock was generally thicker, which gave the book a larger spine so that it would show up better on the bookshelf.  The cream color lent an air of preciousness or perceived value.  Also, the right margin of such books might be uncut, with rough edges like parchment, so as to resemble, say, messages from God.


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## SVD (Jan 15, 2013)

I didn't like CreateSpace's cream either. I went with white.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Lindy Moone said:


> White paper looks amateurish to me. Plus the glare ! The glare on the beach is blinding, even with  s! The horror!
> 
> But I'm curious to learn others' opinions on the matter.


I'm an amateur and use the cream paper.

It's a matter of individual tastes and preferences. In a market this large, we will find lots of differences. Sounds like scrupulous attention to stuff that doesn't matter much.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Rinelle Grey said:


> I choose cream, because I'd heard it was the more popular, but when my sister saw it, she couldn't understand why. She pulled out the nearest Harry Potter and showed me it was white.


So does that mean HP is an amateurish, non-fiction book?


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

David Stephens said:


> Createspace cream is absolutely ghastly and I would never dream of printing anything on it. Why they chose that awful paper is beyond me. It's also too stiff, too thick, and has far too hard a surface for fiction.


I could be wrong here, but I have to wonder if it depends upon where the book is being printed, which Amazon distribution location.

I've used cream on more than a dozen CS books now and it looks fine, the pages aren't stiff or thick, comparable to books I buy at a book store. My print locations have been Lexington, Kentucky, and Charleston, South Carolina. Or maybe I've just been lucky.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

Deke said:


> Part of the fun of self-publishing (and self formatting and self designing) is controlling all the small things. Now when I walk into a book store and browse the shelves, I can shake my head at the clumsy margins, poor kerning, and blinding white paper chosen by the so-called professional "designer."


I had to chuckle at this. I don't do it with books, but as a former newspaper editor, I do it all the time with newspapers I see at stores and in racks. Also, a growing number of U.S. newspapers are no longer designed and produced locally, sometimes not even written and edited locally, and I can always tell. It's in the details.


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## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

I thought I'd like cream, but when the books came, I found that the cream looked too dark, especially next to the blazing white paper that the cover was printed on.  Even viewed edge-on on a shelf, it looked bad with the contrast between cover and interior whiteness.  It looked almost like a telephone book or newsprint.  One book in the order was incorrectly printed on white.  It looked *much* better.  It took me all of 5 seconds to decide to switch all of them over to white.

In a perfect world, I'd make the pages a bit darker and make the cover paper less white so that the interior paper didn't look so dingy next to it.  But I appreciate that CS makes POD practical and I am happy to live with less control over the paper in exchange for the convenience.

Does it look/feel like a trad pub book?  Not really, but I did not have to print thousands of them in order to get a reasonable price and in order to give an option to those who want/need paperbacks.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2013)

I recall the case of a NY Times #1 author whose book was so popular that the printer ran out of its normal paper.
Then the book came out with 3 different stocks of cream and white paper throughout each copy.
The public still bought the book because it was a good read.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

David Stephens said:


> And I've done the same test with exactly the opposite result. The difference is gigantic.
> 
> Virtually all fiction from major publishers that I've come across over many decades, both trade paperback and hardcover, is printed on paper that could best be called off-white, never cream, and never anything approaching CS cream.
> 
> For those who disagree, go find me one trade paperback from a major publisher that uses paper even remotely similar to CS cream and maybe I'll give your argument some credence.


My book on the left, on cream paper. Trade paperback, NYT Bestseller, on the right. I'm not sure what color the paper is supposed to be, but right now, it's about the same color as mine, only more yellowed at the edges. For comparison, the inside cover of my book is white.


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

> Part of the fun of self-publishing (and self formatting and self designing) is controlling all the small things. Now when I walk into a book store and browse the shelves, I can shake my head at the clumsy margins, poor kerning, and blinding white paper chosen by the so-called professional "designer."


Exactly!



> In a random sample taken 2 minutes ago, cookbooks are generally printed on bright white paper. Jimmy Buffett was on ecru, Michael Chricton on cream and Dan Brown had one white and one cream. A small press book was on white (but not bright white) and the Complete Cat was on ecru. Craft books are also on white.
> I hope this helps.


The white vs cream debate concerns only fictional books.



> Self-publishing gives the writer wide choices because the writer bears to cost of publication. Thus you have the cream or white check boxes, and also, choice of fonts.


Whilst I agree that it's liberating for authors to have such a choice, it doesn't mean they should go against the norm just because they can.



> CS cream is an abomination that should be outlawed. If you want your book to look ugly and amateurish, by all means use CS cream.


I've just checked the self-published books I own and there's nothing wrong with them, perhaps you had a bad batch or something. My argument is not that the shade of cream is vastly different from traditionally published novels but that white doesn't feel right for fiction. It feels like reading a school text book.



> 50 Shades of Cream.
> 
> Most readers don't care.


There's a whole thread of readers here that do care.


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

> My book on the left, on cream paper. Trade paperback, NYT Bestseller, on the right. I'm not sure what color the paper is supposed to be, but right now, it's about the same color as mine, only more yellowed at the edges. For comparison, the inside cover of my book is white.


Yup. Looks the same to me. I should say also that the other issue with the CS white paper for fiction books is that that is has a more glossy texture.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> There's a whole thread of readers here that do care.


What does that tell us about consumers?


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

> But we're biased as authors. I bet if you ran a poll, the average person is not going to care about the shade of cream being used. The only color I cannot stand is pee-yellow. But seriously? I have more issues with the fonts inside the books than paper color, and I'm not about to compare 50 shades of cream.
> 
> If you write a good book, readers will be more engrossed in your story than the paper color.


Yeah I agree that White vs Cream paper is not the most important factor in the entire make-up of the book. The writing itself; the cover; the formatting; the spelling/grammar are all more important but it is still a design choice that you must make so you have to base that decision on something. I'm just waiting for someone to post a pic of a pure white traditionally published fiction book. I've spoken to 3 readers who have read more than 600 books between them and they can't ever recall reading one on pure white paper and would certainly prefer cream over white.

If it doesn't bother you, count yourself lucky! lol


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

> What does that tell us about consumers?


...that they care? Aren't we all consumers here?


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

DDark said:


> But we're biased as authors. I bet if you ran a poll, the average person is not going to care about the shade of cream being used. The only color I cannot stand is pee-yellow. But seriously? I have more issues with the fonts inside the books than paper color, and I'm not about to compare 50 shades of cream.
> 
> If you write a good book, readers will be more engrossed in your story than the paper color.


Which is all true.

Even so, I'm with Deke on this one. I come from a design background, and one of the most appealing things about self-publishing is the ability to control the entire process. I suppose that for most SP authors, it's more of an annoyance, chore, or added cost than anything else, but to me, it's a major perk.

I care about what color the paper is, and whether the title is kerned properly. I don't give a damn whether anybody else does or not. If I do my job properly, they'll benefit even if they never consciously notice it.

If anything, I'm annoyed that CS only offers _one_ shade of cream to choose from. That's characteristic of our benevolent overlords, though. They'll do anything to save a buck, and that's the only reason they're still in business. They have my blessing.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Speaking as an avid reader, my problem is not the color of the paper within. Cream or white, no biggie to me, as long as the font color is black or in enough contrast for me to read. My gripe is the quality of paper. In the last 2 years, I have noticed a downward degradation of paper quality in printed books, whether hardcover or trade paperback. Some of them feel like newsprint or maybe (hyperbolically speaking) toilet paper. The only books that seem to be keeping quality are non-fiction books with heavyweight paper.

Having said that, someone told me that if I checked out a book from the library or bought it from a book club, then the paper quality of the hardcover is not so good. I had no idea they print differently for bulk and retail. I think that's totally unfair. Those poor libraries are getting poor quality books? What about all the poor readers (like myself) who can't afford to buy every printed book we want to read?

To see if this was true, at a recent visit to a brick-and-mortar bookstore, I checked out their trade paperbacks, and they are the same quality as those I found in the library. And I didn't see too much of a difference between the hardcovers in the libraries and bookstores. So I don't know where that person in the previous paragraph got her information.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

This is one of those things like Comic Sans or Dubstep where people people lose it over something completely innocuous, isn't it?

Oh, internet, never change.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> This is one of those things like Comic Sans or Dubstep where people people lose it over something completely innocuous, isn't it?


The real nemesis among typefaces is Papyrus. Sometimes I just about lose consciousness when I encounter it in the wild.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

As a reader, I can't say that I care or even notice.

That being said, I just pulled three books at random. A Dick Francis hardback from 1995, a 2013 nonfiction hardback by Bob Lutz, _Icons and Idiots_, that I gave hubby for his birthday, and the paperback edition of Harvey's book that just came out. Harvey's book and the Lutz book are both cream, the Francis book is white (or at least looks white to me), despite its age. Hubby doesn't care, either. I guess we're bad consumers! LOL!

But if the publisher/designer/author cares, I can see that. I'm sure there are details of creation of one of my quilts that are not noticed by the client, but they make me happy.

Betsy


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## Chashton (Jul 24, 2013)

As an author. I really don't care. If you're going to harshly judge a book over something as irrelevant as the color of its paper, then you're ridiculous and I don't need you as a reader.

As a reader. I really especially don't care. If the book is good, and I like it, the last thing I'm thinking about is the paper. This thread is pretty silly, but I need posts.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)




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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I picked cream because I wanted the warmer look for my book, and so far I've been delighted with it - it's definitely a soft white/cream, not yellow in any way.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

LYC_Ryan said:


> Exactly!
> 
> The white vs cream debate concerns only fictional books.


Ah, there in lies the rub. I don't write fictional books. I write real books. I do wish I could tap into that fictional book market. My production rate would go through the roof! LOL Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> The real nemesis among typefaces is Papyrus. Sometimes I just about lose consciousness when I encounter it in the wild.


I never understood this sentiment about any font personally. I guess it is just a personal taste thing.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

VydorScope said:


> I never understood this sentiment about any font personally. I guess it is just a personal taste thing.







That font causes cancer, you know. It's a known fact of science.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Quote

In a random sample taken 2 minutes ago, cookbooks are generally printed on bright white paper.  Jimmy Buffett was on ecru, Michael Chricton on cream and Dan Brown had one white and one cream.  A small press book was on white (but not bright white) and the Complete Cat was on ecru.  Craft books are also on white.
I hope this helps.

The white vs cream debate concerns only fictional books.

Well Mr Ryan it is so nice to know that A Salty Piece of Land, Jurassic Park, The Da Vinci Code, Angels and Demons and The Complete Cat (by Cleveland Armory) are all non-fiction since you are telling me that this debate only concerns fiction.  
Thank you for this though, you just got put in cin's special box.
I personally found it interesting that cookbooks were on bright white paper and other non fiction books were just on white but not bright white paper.  
Oh and there are at least 8 different shades of white, not counting the off whites.

Oh and at Betsy, you can gladly send me a quilt and I will let you know if I see the details.  (It isn't like my grandmother and great grandmother made quilts or anything.)


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> That font causes cancer, you know. It's a known fact of science.


Ah, well. Who wants to live in this world for ever anyways?


----------



## AriadneW (Feb 16, 2013)

I went with cream for the CS proofs of mine, didn't like it and switched to white.

I'll look in my bookcase but I don't think I've ever noticed what colour the paper is in the books I've bought.


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

> The real nemesis among typefaces is Papyrus. Sometimes I just about lose consciousness when I encounter it in the wild.


Oh hell don't get me started on that!
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,159507.msg2293277.html#msg2293277



> As an author. I really don't care. If you're going to harshly judge a book over something as irrelevant as the color of its paper, then you're ridiculous and I don't need you as a reader.
> 
> As a reader. I really especially don't care. If the book is good, and I like it, the last thing I'm thinking about is the paper. This thread is pretty silly, but I need posts. Cool


Yeah I wouldn't harshly judge a book by the colour of the paper, it would just irk me (or blind me if I was reading in sunlight!) I would never give a book a bad review just because it was written on white paper lol. We're just discussing the differences between the 2 types lol. Out of curiosity, why do you need posts?



> Well Mr Ryan it is so nice to know that A Salty Piece of Land, Jurassic Park, The Da Vinci Code, Angels and Demons and The Complete Cat (by Cleveland Armory) are all non-fiction since you are telling me that this debate only concerns fiction.
> Thank you for this though, you just got put in cin's special box.
> I personally found it interesting that cookbooks were on bright white paper and other non fiction books were just on white but not bright white paper.
> Oh and there are at least 8 different shades of white, not counting the off whites.


Sorry I must have completely mis-read what you wrote  I see what you were saying now. Yeah I'm referring mainly to the CS white (which to me is simply pure white) against the CS cream. I'm thinking cook/craft books would have more gloss as well.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

LYC_Ryan said:


> Oh hell don't get me started on that!
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,159507.msg2293277.html#msg2293277
> 
> Yeah I wouldn't harshly judge a book by the colour of the paper, it would just irk me (or blind me if I was reading in sunlight!) I would never give a book a bad review just because it was written on white paper lol. We're just discussing the differences between the 2 types lol. Out of curiosity, why do you need posts?
> ...


The ones I looked at were on regular paper and not glossy. Let me go check something right quick.
Went and looked. Some craft books were glossy and some weren't. On the cookbooks, regular cookbooks and junior league cookbooks were on regular paper. Now my coffee table cookbooks were on glossy paper.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

LYC_Ryan said:


> Oh hell don't get me started on that!
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,159507.msg2293277.html#msg2293277


What is funny about that is that it seems like (based on my personal experience) the average person likes the font, you know the actual consumer who is being targeted, but those that are in the design industry do not seem to like it. It is kind of like when the famous movie critics hate a move, but it becomes the best selling move of all time.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

1. Pick cream paper.
2. 
3. Best seller.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm trying to figure out if my screen is white or cream. Oh! It has a toggle. That's nice. 

I've sold a lot of books, and only eight paperbacks. I don't think that's is going to change anytime soon. While I used cream, I don't think the use of either one would end the universe for me as an author or a reader.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

David Stephens said:


> Createspace cream is absolutely ghastly and I would never dream of printing anything on it. Why they chose that awful paper is beyond me. It's also too stiff, too thick, and has far too hard a surface for fiction.
> 
> CS cream is an abomination that should be outlawed.












 Just kidding... you can lower your volume down off "11," though.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

LynnBlackmar said:


> I'm trying to figure out if my screen is white or cream. Oh! It has a toggle. That's nice.


On E-Readers I MUCH prefer black background with a grey text.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Just think what would happen if CreateSpace started offering eggshell. 

*Head explodes*


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

LYC_Ryan said:


> It's an easy mistake to make during the ordering process of your self-published book - printing fiction on white paper! In most circumstances I think all fictional work should be printed on cream paper and all non-fiction on white paper (I think poetry can get away with being either).
> 
> I think the only other exception to this might be young children's books (also usually printed in larger books).
> 
> ...


You pick the paper color based on the colors in your cover art. Period. Do you see the cover art for Hang On below in my signature? My first proof had cream paper because Threads had cream paper. When it arrived, it was ghastly. The pages looked dirty against the white in the cover. I immediately went in there and fixed it. The revised proof was beautiful.

Please don't make up rules that mess people up. Okay?


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## Bookside Manner (Aug 24, 2013)

I sell so few print books I can't see it making a difference whether the paper is white or cream. It's something I never really thought about, as a writer or a reader.

What I want to know is, when will ebooks give us the option of green text on black background, for that old school Geocities look?


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## HarryK (Oct 20, 2011)

Kelly Cozy said:


> What I want to know is, when will ebooks give us the option of green text on black background, for that old school Geocities look?


For the true Geocities look, throw in some blinking text while you're at it!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)




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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Kelly Cozy said:


> I sell so few print books I can't see it making a difference whether the paper is white or cream. It's something I never really thought about, as a writer or a reader.
> 
> What I want to know is, when will ebooks give us the option of green text on black background, for that old school Geocities look?


Well we did have that thread about animated covers...


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> As an author. I really don't care. If you're going to harshly judge a book over something as irrelevant as the color of its paper, then you're ridiculous and I don't need you as a reader.
> 
> As a reader. I really especially don't care. If the book is good, and I like it, the last thing I'm thinking about is the paper.


Ditto. I own fiction that is cream and fiction that is white.

I went with white because the cream by CS is ugly to me. If it were lighter I would choose it. To me, it looks old and depressing. As a reader I probably wouldn't have noticed that on a book I bought as long as the story was good.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

LYC_Ryan said:


> Oh hell don't get me started on that!
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,159507.msg2293277.html#msg2293277


You are now my favorite.



LYC_Ryan said:


> Out of curiosity, why do you need posts?


To win.



VydorScope said:


> What is funny about that is that it seems like (based on my personal experience) the average person likes the font, you know the actual consumer who is being targeted, but those that are in the design industry do not seem to like it. It is kind of like when the famous movie critics hate a move, but it becomes the best selling move of all time.


This gives you a clue about why the average person cannot be trusted to design things. It's one of the reasons, at any rate. If we just let anybody go around pretending to be a graphic designer or typographer, we'd wind up in world that would look like...well...the internet.



Mimi said:


> <American Psycho pic brevity snip>


See, I love that scene. Maybe I'm secretly a psychotic who feeds cats to ATMs and stabs hobos in alleyways, but the differences between those business cards are meaningful. I totally sympathize with Bateman's lightheadedness when he realizes that he doesn't have the most tasteful cards in the office. Not _quite._

How could anything be the same after that?


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

H.Y. Hanna (Big Honey Dog Mysteries) said:


> The problem is when cream isn't really cream.
> 
> I've just been through this dilemma myself as I'm about to upload my first book to Createspace soon and I went through the archives here and also did a general Google search and turned up a lot of complaints from people saying that the "Createspace cream" is actually more "yellow" and can make the book look really ugly. I even did a cross-reference on Google Images and found pictues people had posted of CS "cream" compared to other papers...and it did look very yellow to me.
> 
> ...


I just started reading this thread and I'm stopping right here to say I _*LOVE*_ your dog. What a great looking Dane.

And just to keep this withing spitting distance of the topic; he/she is cream colored, right.

EC slinking away...


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

> I sell so few print books I can't see it making a difference whether the paper is white or cream. It's something I never really thought about, as a writer or a reader.


It's not something that would potentially harm your sales anyway because amazon don't state which paper it's printed on.



> Ditto. I own fiction that is cream and fiction that is white.


This is quite fascinating - on the one hand I've spoken to people who have read over 600 fiction books between them and never read one on white paper whilst others here are saying they own a mix of white and cream. I'm looking forward to my next visit to the bookstore to see for myself.



> You pick the paper color based on the colors in your cover art. Period.


hmmmm this is a new and interesting perspective, I can certainly see the temptation to go for white paper if the cover is generally white. In fact I designed a cover for someone recently which was based on a white background and when I saw the final print version with white pages it suited it perfectly - however it was non-fiction.

----

So for me - 
fiction = cream, rougher paper
non-fiction = pure white, glossier paper

It's not the most important issue but to some certainly makes a difference to the 'feel' of the novel. If I was a writer that didn't think it made a difference either way and I knew my target audience was made up of readers that didn't mind either way and also readers that preferred cream, then surely it would be logical to print my fiction on cream and please everyone.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

For anyone interested ...

On the shelves above me are 30 mass market fiction paperbacks, every single one of them in cream, though a half dozen or so are quite old and it could just be the pages have colored with age.

There is also a stack of 12 trade paperbacks in fiction, of those four are cream and the rest are white. All were published within the last decade.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

It's always a great day on KB when we find something new to argue about.


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## Andrea Harding (Feb 27, 2013)

I read a blurb. 

If I like the blurb, I buy the book.
If I don't like the blurb, I don't buy the book.

I can't say paper colour has ever even entered my head.

It could be printed on rhino hide for all I care. No, wait, they're endangered. Perhaps not rhinos. But you get my point.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Andrea Harding said:


> It could be printed on rhino hide for all I care. No, wait, they're endangered. Perhaps not rhinos. But you get my point.


The birth of a rhino is a beautiful thing:


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

swolf said:


> It's always a great day on KB when we find something new to argue about.


No, it isn't.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

This is almost enough to convince me to go change my book to white paper. Except it would mean redoing the spine, and that's too much effort.

I don't think most readers pay much attention to the paper color (I certainly never did), it's only just authors that agonise over every decision.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

I never noticed the difference until I accidentally picked white.  When I opened it, it looked really wrong to me.  So then I pulled down a bunch of fiction titles from my shelf and realized why.


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## hyh (Jul 21, 2013)

EC Sheedy said:


> I just started reading this thread and I'm stopping right here to say I _*LOVE*_ your dog. What a great looking Dane.
> 
> And just to keep this withing spitting distance of the topic; he/she is cream colored, right.
> 
> EC slinking away...


Aw, thank you, EC!!  Her name is Honey and she's actually the inspiration for my debut canine mystery series, Big Honey Dog Mysteries. (And yes, you're right - she is sort of cream-coloured, although the official name for it is "fawn" ;-) )

Hsin-Yi


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## zandermarks (May 20, 2013)

If readers are paying attention to what color paper my book is printed on, then I probably haven't done my job very well.


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## EvilTwinBrian (Jun 20, 2013)

I do most of my reading on my kindle app (sepia for daytime, black background for night).

On paper, though, I've read a lot of fiction in the setting sections of role-playing games, so I'm used to large, two-column text on white paper (matte and glossy). The paper color never stood out to me, but I am a fan of the look, feel and smell of the classic mass market paperback books I've got sitting on the shelves.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

zandermarks said:


> If readers are paying attention to what color paper my book is printed on, then I probably haven't done my job very well.


Right! This is _especially true_ if paper color matters.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2013)

LYC_Ryan said:


> Again, I honestly can't recall seeing a traditionally published fiction book on pure white paper -


Either you don't read all that much, or it is a British thing. I have a shelf full of books in all shades of white.

Paper stock choices are a matter of _expense_. Cream color paper tends to be more expensive, and will therefore be used predominately for hardcover books. But for trade paperbacks, white (or eggshell or some variant thereof) is VERY common. And you will almost never see mass market paperbacks in cream (that paper more often is a small step above newsprint).

It is also genre specific. When you do see cream or off-colors in paperbacks, it will usually be with literary work. Trade published genre works are less likely to have cream paper.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Ok, you guys made me look. All of the fiction books on my bookshelf are of a cream, or off white variety. Most are mass market, I have some trade paper backs, Penguin, Mira and Harper. Those are new and from the last couple of years. One is brand new. All off white. Or cream, or whatever its called. I have never seen a create space book, so I don't know what that looks like. But I have seen the picture that was inserted in the thread earlier by Mary I believe and that is what my books look like.

I could never read from a bright white sheet. I don't comfortably read from a computer printout. Its just too bright for my eyes. The letters start swimming after a while. I think that is why I always loved the e-ink on my kindles. Gentle contrast, no bright white glaring in my eyes. Its why I can't read long text off a computer screen or a tablet.

I have also gotten about 30 books from the library in the last year. Those were mostly new releases and all of those were cream, not white. A combination of hard cover, trade back and a few mass markets.

The only white things I can find are some books with lots of photographs in it and some of the cookbooks are a bit whiter. But since I use them and abuse them, they have thankfully yellowed over time.

So I could not find one white fiction book on my shelf. Not saying they don't exist, just not at my house. Or in the library books I read.

But then not all white is the same either.



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Either you don't read all that much, or it is a British thing. I have a shelf full of books in all shades of white.
> 
> Paper stock choices are a matter of _expense_. Cream color paper tends to be more expensive, and will therefore be used predominately for hardcover books. But for trade paperbacks, white (or eggshell or some variant thereof) is VERY common. And you will almost never see mass market paperbacks in cream (that paper more often is a small step above newsprint).
> 
> It is also genre specific. When you do see cream or off-colors in paperbacks, it will usually be with literary work. Trade published genre works are less likely to have cream paper.


Hmm, I guess I could call my cream eggshell. None of them are white though and I pretty much only read genre fiction. But eggshell isn't white. To me white is a computer paper. Eggshell is cream, or off white.
I think we are starting to confuse each other with the off white colors.


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## Derrick M. (Jul 27, 2013)

Just from a quick walk around my book store, fiction sections only, I would take a guess at a 4:1 ratio of cream over white. Personally they both look fine to me. My only issue with white being that it shows dirt, dust and finger prints much more than cream. Other than that, I don't really care.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2013)

Atunah said:


> I think we are starting to confuse each other with the off white colors.


Methinks you are correct.

But I also think that there is confusion between _whiteness_ and _brightness._ Brightness refers to how much blue light is reflected off the paper. Brightness is a reflection of paper quality because brighter paper yellows more slowly. Brighter papers will tend to be stronger and less suspeptible to jamming in equipment. The ISO requirements set certain parameters for different types of presses. Offset presses, like those used by trade publishers, can run with a less bright paper (lower quality paper). Digital presses, of which POD are included, need a higher grade of paper to run. The lower brightness paper used on offset presses won't work on a digital press.

So what some people are claiming is "cream", I think, is actually just the less bright paper used on offset presses.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Crafter checking in:  To me most cookbooks are a bright white as opposed to just plain white, several of my books were either on plain white or ecru (but not cream because cream is darker), now the craft books were generally on eggshell white.
Oh and to the one that mentioned computer paper are you talking standard white or bright white?  The packages are usually labeled.
Sorry I have stitched too many angels and the wings usually require 4 or 5 varying shades of white.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Must be a regional American thing.

Not a single one of my hardcovers or paperbacks is on cream-colored paper.

ETA

Okay… depends on what you call white, I suppose. My hardcovers and paperbacks are definitely not bleached white of the blinding kind. To me they look grayish. I'd call cream-colored that yellowish paper they used to print Bibles on and luxury editions of e.g. LotR.


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## Tim_A (May 25, 2013)

I'm sitting in Waterstones coffee shop right now, having just looked at a whole bunch of books on the shelves. While this wasn't an exhaustive poll - I didn't check every book in the shop - but the books I looked at (most of the bestsellers, the front table & some genre), I'd say around 80% were on cream and 20% on white. Now this wasn't a coated white like you see in some non-fictiion & textbooks, but looked more like a bleached white on the usual low quality paperback stock, IYSWIM. But definitely white.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

cinisajoy said:


> Crafter checking in: To me most cookbooks are a bright white as opposed to just plain white, several of my books were either on plain white or ecru (but not cream because cream is darker), now the craft books were generally on eggshell white.
> Oh and to the one that mentioned computer paper are you talking standard white or bright white? The packages are usually labeled.
> Sorry I have stitched too many angels and the wings usually require 4 or 5 varying shades of white.


I grabbed standard white computer paper. I also have bright in the house which is still white, but brighter. 
But no matter the brightness of the white, I could not get anywhere near the white with any of the books on my shelf. They all looked off white, cream, light tan, eggshell, whatershallwecallit. All light cream, no white. So I can make a stack of white computer paper I have in the house, about 4 different white shades. They are still all white and all are still different looking than my books on the shelf.

I think I confused myself now.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Atunah said:


> I grabbed standard white computer paper. I also have bright in the house which is still white, but brighter.
> But no matter the brightness of the white, I could not get anywhere near the white with any of the books on my shelf. They all looked off white, cream, light tan, eggshell, whatershallwecallit. All light cream, no white. So I can make a stack of white computer paper I have in the house, about 4 different white shades. They are still all white and all are still different looking than my books on the shelf.
> 
> I think I confused myself now.


And depending on the background color all your paper will change colors or shades.


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## wilsonharp (Jun 5, 2012)

I believe, but I'm not certain, that mass market paperbacks are generally printed on pulp. (Where the term 'pulp fiction' comes from.)

If that is the case, then most manufacturers would not spend the extra resources to bleach pulp paper back to white, but will leave it the cream color that the pulping process produces.

Trade paperbacks, on the other hand, generally use a stock paper that has not been reprocessed. The paper is generally white and must be treated to acquire the cream color.

Most of my bookshelf is mass market paperback, and cream color. I have a few trade paperback books that are cream, but they aren't pulp paper, they are treated stock paper. Most of my trade paperbacks are white.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Ty Johnston said:


> I could be wrong here, but I have to wonder if it depends upon where the book is being printed, which Amazon distribution location.
> 
> I've used cream on more than a dozen CS books now and it looks fine, the pages aren't stiff or thick, comparable to books I buy at a book store. My print locations have been Lexington, Kentucky, and Charleston, South Carolina. Or maybe I've just been lucky.


I was just wondering the same thing! This thread inspired me to compare my CS books with a few books in my office (mostly hardcovers and mass market -- I only had one trade paperback to compare) and the color of the CS pages are VERY similar to the colors of the hardcover and trade paperback pages I compared. And the pages aren't stiff or thick either.

I usually get books printed from Charleston, with the occasional batch from Lexington. (I have to say I'm not terribly happy with the quality control from Lexington...I've seen lots of bent and miscut pages from that plant.)


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

wilsonharp said:


> I believe, but I'm not certain, that mass market paperbacks are generally printed on pulp. (Where the term 'pulp fiction' comes from.)


Inaccurate.

The low-grade paper used on a "mass market paperback" is NOT the source of the term "pulp fiction." At all.

No, that term arose out of the 1890s-1950s, ultra-cheap genre fiction magazines that gave writers like Ray Bradbury, Isaac Asimov, Robert Bloch, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Phillip K. Dick, Robert Heinlien, and Dashiell Hammett, among others, their first chance to write for (very low) pay.

These magazines, usually with cover prices ranging from a dime to, toward the end of their market dominance, a quarter, were sold on sensationalism, but often were the training grounds for several generations of SF, fantasy, and detective/mystery authors who needed to gain experience and hone their craft.

These magazines were typically 7x10, 128 pages in length, and apart from the cover, contained mostly text on the interior.

They bore names like SPICY DETECTIVE, BLACK MASK, DIME DETECTIVE, MARVEL TALES, STARTLING STORIES, UNKNOWN, WEIRD TALES, and the like.

Magazines that began as pulps and lasted beyond the 1950s into modernity include Argosy and Ellery Queen's Mystery Magazine, but beginning in the 1940s, due to paper rationing during WWII, most fiction pulps that survived switched to smaller formats and ultimately became "slicks." (Printed on higher-grade paper.)

These were the magazines that gave rise to the term "pulp fiction," not mass-market paperbacks.

Popular characters who were first brought to life in these fiction pulps include:

Tarzan, Buck Rogers, Conan, Doc Savage, Fu Manchu, Hopalong Cassidy, John Carter of Mars, Kazar, Kull, Nick Carter, The Shadow, Solomon Kane, and Zorro.

The quality of paper, with its ragged, untrimmed edges, used in "pulp magazines," was notably lower than the type of paper used in mass-market paperbacks. In fact, their paper was far more comparable to newsprint stock common to the era.



Wikipedia said:


> Pulp magazines (often referred to as "the pulps") are inexpensive fiction magazines published from 1896 through the 1950s. The typical pulp magazine was 7 inches (18 cm) wide by 10 inches (25 cm) high, 0.5 inches (1.3 cm) thick, and 128 pages long. Pulps were printed on cheap paper with ragged, untrimmed edges.
> 
> The term pulp derives from the cheap wood pulp paper on which the magazines were printed. Magazines printed on higher quality paper were called "glossies" or "slicks". In their first decades, pulps were most often priced at ten cents per magazine, while competing slicks were 25 cents apiece. Pulps were the successor to the penny dreadfuls, dime novels, and short fiction magazines of the 19th century. Although many respected writers wrote for pulps, the magazines are best remembered for their lurid and exploitative stories and sensational cover art. Modern superhero comic books are sometimes considered descendants of "hero pulps"; pulp magazines often featured illustrated novel-length stories of heroic characters, such as The Shadow, Doc Savage and The Phantom Detective.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Inaccurate.
> 
> The low-grade paper used on a "mass market paperback" is NOT the source of the term "pulp fiction." At all.
> 
> ...


In the 1940's Ray Bradbury was turning out a short story a week. If you can find it "_A Memory of Murder_ published in 1984 (newer than I thought it was) is his short stories from the early 1940's.

And the paper is either cream or very discolored.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Books have different colored paper?!?

Really?

Never noticed. Honestly.

Been reading since I was 3 and I've NEVER NOTICED.

I mean I MIGHT have noticed if it was red construction paper or something...

...maybe.

So long as it has words on it, I don't givea rip.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ashy said:


> Books have different colored paper?!?
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


Handing you a red construction valentine with lots of words.


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## RobinBreyer (May 12, 2013)

It is interesting that this has gone on for 5 pages. It is really an inane topic. Some people care, others don't and it really doesn't matter because our definitions of white and cream are not all the same. It is really a matter of paper quality. The best papers are not a brilliant white, but are acid free and designed to last. They are very pale, for the most part. Traditionally published books use papers in keeping with the price. Hard covers use better, longer lasting paper, mass market paperbacks use cheap paper (often slightly gray), and trade paperbacks use something in the middle. It all depends on what the publishers and printer agree to use. The problem with Createspace cream is that it is just the same paper as the white paper but tinted cream. It isn't the same as the higher quality off-white paper that are in most of the better quality books on my book shelves. But I have to say I have seen some very pale paper in some fictional trade paperbacks that were traditionally published. This is not an issue of quality of indie books, this is a preference. Be it the reader or the self-publisher, this isn't a topic we are going to agree on as it is as individual as there are people out there. While not very high in flaming, this topic has people on both sides that keep saying the other side is wrong. Frankly, taking sides is useless. Do what you want and make an informed decision and all will be well. Considering where the bulk of money comes from with self-published titles, this isn't something that I have any worry about. I did a cream printing for my first edition and I intend to do a white printing for my second edition. I want the book to look clean and new and white is what I want. It may be a brighter white than some traditionally published books, but there are plenty out there printed on very white paper. And reading in the sun would never be one of my considerations because I've always found that reading anything in bright sunlight is impossible. It just wouldn't occur to me to factor that in

We all have different experiences and preferences and libraries. We aren't going to agree on this so why get so bugged by what other people decide to do. It doesn't make sense. To each their own.


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## SandraMiller (May 10, 2011)

RobinBreyer said:


> The problem with Createspace cream is that it is just the same paper as the white paper but tinted cream.


Hmm...that doesn't match my experience with my single, accidentally-white copy. The white paper feels noticeably thinner, and less stiff, than the cream paper. (In fact, if I recall correctly, when you design your covers you have to calculate a thicker spine for cream paper.)

Maybe the difference in the feel was a fluke thing with my copy (which was admittedly a fluke to begin with?)

Not that it really matters, in the end--it's all pretty much personal preference. And my preference isn't based on weight or thickness, but on the way dark black letters on really white papers make my eyes hurt. YMMV


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

RobinBreyer said:


> It is interesting that this has gone on for 5 pages. It is really an inane topic. Some people care, others don't and it really doesn't matter because our definitions of white and cream are not all the same. It is really a matter of paper quality. The best papers are not a brilliant white, but are acid free and designed to last. They are very pale, for the most part. Traditionally published books use papers in keeping with the price. Hard covers use better, longer lasting paper, mass market paperbacks use cheap paper (often slightly gray), and trade paperbacks use something in the middle. It all depends on what the publishers and printer agree to use. The problem with Createspace cream is that it is just the same paper as the white paper but tinted cream. It isn't the same as the higher quality off-white paper that are in most of the better quality books on my book shelves. But I have to say I have seen some very pale paper in some fictional trade paperbacks that were traditionally published. This is not an issue of quality of indie books, this is a preference. Be it the reader or the self-publisher, this isn't a topic we are going to agree on as it is as individual as there are people out there. While not very high in flaming, this topic has people on both sides that keep saying the other side is wrong. Frankly, taking sides is useless. Do what you want and make an informed decision and all will be well. Considering where the bulk of money comes from with self-published titles, this isn't something that I have any worry about. I did a cream printing for my first edition and I intend to do a white printing for my second edition. I want the book to look clean and new and white is what I want. It may be a brighter white than some traditionally published books, but there are plenty out there printed on very white paper. And reading in the sun would never be one of my considerations because I've always found that reading anything in bright sunlight is impossible. It just wouldn't occur to me to factor that in
> 
> We all have different experiences and preferences and libraries. We aren't going to agree on this so why get so bugged by what other people decide to do. It doesn't make sense. To each their own.


I have not until your post seen anyone that has said the other side is wrong. Most of us have gone and looked at actual books to see what the norm is. 
And if this topic is so inane to you, why the long post?
Yes some people do read outside in the bright sun.

You obviously seem bugged by this topic since you are saying other people are bugged by it.
Besides this is a fun topic to put off whatever else one should be doing.

Oh and let me be the first to welcome you to cin's special box. Enjoy.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> In the 1940's Ray Bradbury was turning out a short story a week.


True.

Which is why I liked and participated in the Konrath 8-hour challenge. Back in the days that folks like Bradbury were writing a short story a week, writers didn't have the luxury of endless revisions... they couldn't, or they'd never earn enough to make rent. They resolved to get better with each new story, not to make each new story perfect first.

There are merits to either approach. And drawbacks.

But the Konrath Challenge was a nice reminder that one doesn't need to take forever, or get everything perfect, or get all overwrought, in order to produce a piece of short entertainment.

One can, indeed, also be productive. 

Just think: if one had enough short story ideas, they could dedicate their first year of being an indie to short fiction. Five shorts a week, all at $0.99.

That'd give one around 260 short stories to market, and would certainly make one visible and noticeable, so that when one decided to take time off to work on a novel, they'd have a stream of income to live off of, at least somewhat, and one's readership would be primed for that novel when it arrived.

And under a more reasonable, leisurely pace, one could do one such short story a week, have 52 releases after a year, and have four days a week devoted to that novel, which should be close to ready for release by then.

The pulp stories were not great literature, but they entertained folks and gave writers practice and projects to improve their skills on. Look at the writer Ray Bradbury became by cutting his teeth there! Or any of the others I named, which was not an exhaustive list by any means.

I know lots of people fret over ideas like this, and they're entitled to their opinions. I do think it's not end-of-the-world stuff to gain some wisdom from earlier generations of writers, though.

Is Stephen King's "Quitters, Inc." a perfect short story? Is it literature on the level of his novel 11-22-63? No and no.

What exactly would he have gained, though, had he spent weeks crafting and recrafting Quitters, Inc.? Would he have ever gotten around to 11-22-63?

At some point, I see the wisdom in saying, "This is as good as it's going to get. Time to move on to the next thing."

Which isn't a defense of being a sloppy writer. Not at all.

It is a defense that productivity is not the nemesis of quality. It is a defense of the pulp-era idea that one gets better through writing a LOT, not through re-writing and revising the same one thing over and over and over again.

And, umm... choose a yellowish/off-white background color on your word processor, I guess, because I needed to find some way to tie this back into the paper-color topic, LOL...


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## EthanRussellErway (Nov 17, 2011)

Dude, paperback books are so 5 minutes ago!


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## justagirl (Aug 7, 2013)

For shorter releases especially, I want the book to be as small as possible - which means choosing white so I can have the 5.05 x 7.81 trim size, at least for my own works. 

But, I think perhaps I'm one of those rare people who read better with brightness? Smaller fonts and cream papers are some of the reasons why it's more difficult for me to sustain my reading habit if I'm holding a printed book versus a reading on a screen.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

SandraMiller said:


> Hmm...that doesn't match my experience with my single, accidentally-white copy. The white paper feels noticeably thinner, and less stiff, than the cream paper. (In fact, if I recall correctly, when you design your covers you have to calculate a thicker spine for cream paper.)


Yep, there is a difference other than color, you need to calculate your spine differently depending on the color paper, (can't remember which is which though).


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

I never really thought about it before. I just assumed all books were on white paper but I just had a look at a couple close to hand and I guess they do look kind of creamy. When I saw that option on Createspace I just figured it would show up looking like my bathroom wall, haha. Might switch one over and have a look.


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## LYC_Ryan (Aug 9, 2013)

> Yep, there is a difference other than color, you need to calculate your spine differently depending on the color paper, (can't remember which is which though).


Wow! I'm a book cover designer and I didn't know that!  I always wondered why you had to choose white/cream on Creastespace when downloading the cover template - now I know I why! Although I have to say I don't think it's ever made any major noticeable a difference to the spine (I'll have to compare the 2 and see what the difference actually is).

I think the biggest issue here though (as already pointed out by some) is different peoples interpration of 'white'. I'm talking about the CS white which is a4 copier paper white whereas traditionally published books are very light cream. The CS cream in my opinion looks absolutely fine but I think it depends where the book was printed. All the ones I have are from Charleston.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Handing you a red construction valentine with lots of words.


LOL! Thanks, cin!


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## SandraMiller (May 10, 2011)

Found it!



> For black and white-interior books:
> White paper: multiply page count by 0.002252
> Cream paper: multiply page count by 0.0025


from https://www.createspace.com/Products/Book/CoverPDF.jsp

It isn't much of a difference, but it's enough that you can feel it in the paper if you have the books side by side.


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## zandermarks (May 20, 2013)

> Quote from: zandermarks on Yesterday at 06:49:27 AM
> 
> If readers are paying attention to what color paper my book is printed on, then I probably haven't done my job very well.





Dolphin said:


> Right! This is _especially true_ if paper color matters.


Actually, what I meant was that my words should have enough page-pull to keep them from thinking about anything else. If the paper seems too bright, hopefully they will attribute it to their own dilated pupils as the non-stop action of the prose keeps their hearts racing and the adrenaline rush has them flipping the pages frantically.

At least, that's the goal.

Oh, yes: And papercuts. I want them to get papercuts (and not even _notice_ the papercuts) from all that frantic page-flipping.

Then I want them to turn to the bedside clock and say: "Oh snap! It's that late? I have to go to work in the morning! Okay...just _one_ more chapter."

So, yeah. If I'm doing it right, they're not even thinking about the paper.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

zandermarks said:


> Actually, what I meant was that my words should have enough page-pull to keep them from thinking about anything else. If the paper seems too bright, hopefully they will attribute it to their own dilated pupils as the non-stop action of the prose keeps their hearts racing and the adrenaline rush has them flipping the pages frantically.


I figured that was what you actually meant, but it's true anyway. Most design isn't meant to be consciously observed. The best paper is the one that the reader won't notice. If the paper seems too bright, fix it instead of doing nothing and hoping that your prose will compensate.

Looking back on the thread, it seems like the primary points are 1) white paper can be difficult to read, especially under bright lights, 2) CreateSpace cream paper may or may not suck, 3) care should be taken to harmonize the cover design and the paper color.

I'm still leaning towards cream on this one (for fiction, at least). The points about white paper being difficult to read seem persuasive enough to me that I'd change the cover before changing the paper.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

DDark said:


> True, but keep in mind consumers who buy the books may not share your taste. Most don't care about the different shades. We do, but it's an awful lot of time spent on something the average reader doesn't put much thought into. Everyone selects their preference, but I don't think there's a right or wrong here, and that's where this thread was going. Consumers just want to read a good story, and they want legible fonts. They're not going to hold the paper up to their shelved books and compare the 50 shades of cream.


I think there is a right answer, though; that was my point. Art is about taste, but design isn't. Let's compare our options again.

We've heard three complaints about cream: 1) some cream papers suck, 2) it can clash with white elements on a cover, and 3) who cares?

What are the objections to white paper? A) it can be hard to read (especially in sunlight), B) the high contrast can cause physical pain to the reader, and C) it makes things harder on dyslexic readers than they need to be.

There's an objectively correct answer, based on these (admittedly limited) data. A), B), and C) all carry some objective weight in my mind. 1) might sway you if your only cream option does indeed suck, and that does come down to somewhat of a judgment call. 2) can and should be avoided in the first place if you accept A), B), and/or C). 3) does nothing except mark you out as a careless craftsperson. It's clear to me that cream should be used unless D) you need to print full color. Even in fiction, I've seen plenty of examples where the book is cream paper and there are just glossy white inserts with illustrations.

When average consumers begin consciously comparing your design to others, you've probably done something wrong already. The point is never to have readers comparing and contrasting the color of your paper-the point is for the color to be the best possible. It shouldn't give the reader a headache, or be illegible in sunlight. Those features should be quietly assumed. The reader need never observe them consciously, and in fact, the reader might never be conscious of discomfort while reading a white paper book in sunlight. It doesn't matter. A good designer-and a good vendor of goods-cares about unconscious discomfort as much as any other kind.

If you don't care, that's fine! By all means, go on not caring. The best way to signal your ambivalence is probably to stop refreshing the thread to remind us that you don't care.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Cream versus white? Yeah, it's a consideration when I'm getting ready to publish my pb, but 5 pages worth of discussion? Wow. I never realized how important this subject was.

Snark aside, most readers don't care. If a book SOUNDS interesting enough, the tint of the paper will make no difference. If it does, then your book/description is probably on the cusp anyway and if said reader declines to buy because of paper color, then really they're just looking for an excuse not to buy it anyway.


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## journeymama (May 30, 2011)

I admittedly didn't read through all the pages of this thread, but wanted to put my vote in for cream for fiction. I also think biography and memoir looks great on cream paper.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

Dolphin said:


> There's an objectively correct answer, based on these (admittedly limited) data. A), B), and C) all carry some objective weight in my mind. 1) might sway you if your only cream option does indeed suck, and that does come down to somewhat of a judgment call. 2) can and should be avoided in the first place if you accept A), B), and/or C). 3) does nothing except mark you out as a careless craftsperson. It's clear to me that cream should be used unless D) you need to print full color. Even in fiction, I've seen plenty of examples where the book is cream paper and there are just glossy white inserts with illustrations.


As others have pointed out, the CS white is not bright white or glossy white, it's a bit off white. So, I kinda fail to see how it's "objectively correct" in this situation. We're not talking printer copy white vs. cream, but off-white vs. beige (with a touch of pee yellow, or at least that's how my book looks). I would think it'd be a bigger problem for people writing non-fiction.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

LynnBlackmar said:


> ...with a touch of pee yellow...


See this is what bugs me about the folks who rail against CS Cream.

They can't just make it about their preference/choice. They HAVE to use insulting language.

"Pee yellow" is a very bright yellow in most cases, and not accurate at all.

I have both my books that are in print versions on CS Cream, both are about two years old, and neither look any more yellowed than any mainstream print books of similar vintage.

You want to prefer White, great. That's your choice. You're as free to do that as I am to choose CS Cream.

But please, consider your wording. You could have said "a hint of yellow" and gotten the same meaning across without being offensive.

Between stuff like this, and those who want to bring about Armageddon (earlier in this thread) in an effort to have CS Cream "stricken from the earth," how is sane, rational discourse supposed to even be possible?

And no "that's not how I meant it, I was referring to a shade of yellow" excuses, please. We're all supposedly writers here; we should understand the power and consequences of our word choices. CS Cream bears no resemblance to brilliant yellow urine.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> See this is what bugs me about the folks who rail against CS Cream.
> 
> They can't just make it about their preference/choice. They HAVE to use insulting language.
> 
> ...


This book is brand new. I just pulled it out of the box. It has a distinct yellow shade to it, especially next to the inside cover (which is matte white, I might note). Some in this thread have suggested different batches or locations could be producing different shades. That very well may be true.

I also never said I preferred white, you assumed that. I did state that it was my own book I was looking at.

I don't love either CS color, that's the problem, and I don't think this argument is as cut-and-dried as many people insist.

EDIT: Wow, it's 5am here, I've been up for several hours, and no, I'm not at my top writing game, thank you for pointing it out. I didn't attack you, or anybody preferring white, but expressed my unhappiness with Createspace's options. And I did say "a touch", as you insisted I should have, so I am a little confused as to why the onslaught? Is there a better description for that color? A touch of sticky note yellow? I don't know how else to describe it at 5am on little sleep.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Would you compare the hair of a blonde friend to urine as well?

There are many words for yellow. Including "yellow."  

Also, the post was intended more generally. If you wish to take it as purely personal, that's your choice, but... why?

And yeah, it's late and we both lack sleep. Your post was the tipping point for a generalized reaction to something several folks have been doing. Not just you.

But since I reacted to your post, I can understand why you'd take it personally. Sorry. The comment about "pee" was the only personal bit intended. Your chosen wording for a shade of yellow pushed me into seeing red, but it was a generalized reaction beyond that.


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## RobinBreyer (May 12, 2013)

Let me rephrase one point I addressed a little too simplistically before. I said that the two papers from Createspace are the same except for color. What I was talking about is the quality of paper. I am quite aware that the cream paper is slightly thicker as I have most of my books setup with cream paper, at least at this point. In most books, the color of paper indicates how bleached the paper is. The whiter a paper is the more it has been processed. The reason that most books are printed on an off white paper is because the paper isn't bleached as much. The Createspace cream paper, rather than being less bleached than the white paper, is actually dyed cream, like the colored copy paper you can get from places like Kinko's (or FedEx Office I or whatever they are called these days). So from Createspace you have the choice of bleached white or dyed cream, neither one matches the industry norm of paper that hasn't been as heavily bleached. The Createspace cream paper is almost as far off as the white from what you will find coming from traditional publishers. So if you want your book to look exactly like a traditionally published book, you probably need to find a vanity press that will print it on standard stock, which usually has a color somewhere in between Createspace's white and cream. If you are using Createspace for the cost, convenience, or any other reason, you just need to use whichever paper you think looks better for your book. It's a personal preference and there is no right or wrong choice. If you think cream looks more professional that is great, but choosing white is just as valid an option if that is what you think looks better.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

RobinBreyer said:


> A wall of text.


But it's not about what "looks better." That's a silly reason to choose a paper. It's a good reason if there aren't any other factors to consider, but it's a silly reason when there are.

Again, points raised against white paper have been A) it can be hard to read (especially in sunlight), B) the high contrast can cause physical pain to the reader, and C) it makes things harder on dyslexic readers than they need to be. The provenance of CS cream doesn't matter as long as it can address these issues successfully. In fact, neither does its subjective attractiveness. There are concrete bases for choosing cream over white-even non-standard or unattractive cream-and they override purely cosmetic considerations.

And again, cosmetic preferences are subjective. Some folks have chimed in supporting CS cream. I haven't seen it, so I can't judge it on a subjective basis. All I know is that there are meaningful, objective reasons to prefer it to white.

"Same except for color" indeed. That's why you choose cream.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Zzzzzz...... Huh? Wha?

This thread is still active?

Don't wake me for this, Google...


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

Okay, I can't resist giving one more data point. I'm a reader. I've read thousands of books. I can think of only two situations when I noticed the page color. One was, reading those Easy Eye Gothics that were printed in a sort of pale green. The other, reading a copy of Lady Audley's Secret that had been printed on such acidic paper that it had turned dark brownish yellow, and each page crumbled to pieces as I turned it.


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## RobinBreyer (May 12, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> But it's not about what "looks better." That's a silly reason to choose a paper. It's a good reason if there aren't any other factors to consider, but it's a silly reason when there are.
> 
> Again, points raised against white paper have been A) it can be hard to read (especially in sunlight), B) the high contrast can cause physical pain to the reader, and C) it makes things harder on dyslexic readers than they need to be. The provenance of CS cream doesn't matter as long as it can address these issues successfully. In fact, neither does its subjective attractiveness. There are concrete bases for choosing cream over white-even non-standard or unattractive cream-and they override purely cosmetic considerations.
> 
> ...


You bring up valid points, except that by an large, textbooks are printed on very white paper. My understanding is that very white paper has a couple of drawbacks besides what you mention. Since it has been more heavily processed, it takes more work to ensure that it isn't heavily acidic and it tends to be more expensive. Paper cost is probably the single driving factor. For all the perfect bound books out there (Trade paperbacks and mass market paperbacks) paper cost is a bigger factor. Many mass market paperbacks were printed on a grayish toned paper that wasn't far removed from newsprint. While the points you raise seem quite logical. I don't see the evidence in the books on my shelves. If dyslexia played a role, all textbooks would be printed on paper with a natural creamy tone rather than bright white. Same for your other two points. That leaves cost (which isn't a factor with Createspace), quality (again not a factor with Createspace), and personal preference for choosing between white and cream.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Like a dog with a bone.... or a Frisbee.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

RobinBreyer said:


> If dyslexia played a role, all textbooks would be printed on paper with a natural creamy tone rather than bright white. Same for your other two points. That leaves cost (which isn't a factor with Createspace), quality (again not a factor with Createspace), and personal preference for choosing between white and cream.


Because textbook publishers go out of their way to cater to dyslexic students in all of their releases? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Rather than bandying about straw men, let's agree to disagree. I think the others are right that this discussion has run its course.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

For the most part, I think it's a matter of taste/preference in these times. Also, I remember a thread a while back (or it may have been on the Create Space forums) about choosing white or cream based more on the colors in your cover.

Here are a couple of older threads from CS on the topic of white vs cream (with pictures):

https://www.createspace.com/en/community/thread/24700

And post six on this one has some samples of different papers with b/w and color printing options:

https://www.createspace.com/en/community/thread/17202

I had to turn off my F.lux to see the colors better, as I have it set to darken the monitor a bit. I have trouble reading things on bright backgrounds.


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## The Cover Counts (Apr 19, 2012)

I don't know if anyone has posted something like this, but here are 2 books, both from CreateSpace. One in cream and one in white.

Hope it's helpful to see them side by side.


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