# Thoughts on cover design. This may be controversial...



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

Since specializing in cover design, I have designed well over 400 covers, researched many successful books and their covers in all genres, and generally kept up with trends in book cover design worldwide. Through the knowledge and experience I have gained over this time, I have realized that MANY indie authors are going about their covers the wrong way, and ultimately this is hurting their book sales.

Unfortunately, this is partly my fault.

The reason that I am (partly) to blame is that, as a paid service provider to my client (the author), I've been guilty of trying to give them what they ask for, instead of giving them what they need. It's taken me a long time to figure this out, and I probably should have come to this realization earlier, but however amazing the author's literary talents are, there's a reason why they are writers and not designers. The skills involved in transforming words and sentences into story and imagination are formidable, skills I certainly don't possess. But they don't translate into creating a single image that will convince a potential reader to pick up your book or click on your cover.

It's obvious how important an effective book cover is. It can literally make-or-break your book sales. According to Mark Coker, founder of Smashwords, a good cover is "&#8230;the visual embodiment of everything your book represents. Great covers, through their imagery alone, can communicate genre, topic, mood and setting. A great cover image makes a promise to the reader. It helps them recognize your book as one they'll enjoy reading." In his free ebook, The Secrets to Ebook Publishing Success (terrible cover!), Coker describes how one author went from sales of five or six per day to over a hundred per day only through a change in her book cover. It was also a good book, but without a strong, convincing cover, nobody would ever know.

After designing hundreds of covers, in many different genres, I know what looks good, I know what works and I know what sells. Which leads me to express my plea to authors: You decide what goes on inside your book. Let me decide what goes on the cover.

One of the most common requests I get from clients is to depict a particular scene from the book on the cover. It happens all the time, and is a good example of what doesn't work on a book cover. The potential reader is glancing at your cover for maybe two seconds. TWO SECONDS! There could be an incredibly detailed scene on your cover that shows the protagonist running down the road after her lover in the rain of a downtown Chicago neighborhood, conveying a real sense of lost love, hope and anguish. But in TWO SECONDS nobody is going to see that. What they're going to see is a tiny thumbnail smudge and a typical indie author mistake of trying to put too much information on the cover. That will turn potential readers away far more often than it will convince them to click on that image.

Unfortunately, there is still a perception that traditionally published authors write better books than self-published authors. Whether or not that is true isn't relevant. Books that are perceived to be by indie authors don't sell as well as those perceived to be by traditionally published authors. And the first indicator a potential reader gets on which camp this author falls into is through that thumbnail cover image. Traditional publishing houses will pay $3000-$5000 dollars for a book cover. And it shows in the cover - not through the complexity of the cover, but the simplicity of it. The key to a great cover is NOT through creating a key scene from the book, but through evoking an emotion or telling a story in the simplest way possible, so the reader can see it, understand it and act on it in those crucial two seconds.

Examples of effective covers that sell include the 50 Shades books, Twilight, Game of Thrones books, The Hunger Games books. Some have sold millions of copies. How many of them have a specific scene or character on the cover? None.

I have designed many covers that have scenes created on the cover. Those were designed based on the brief from the author. However, moving forward, I will be strongly recommending that authors do not have covers containing scenes from their book. I realize that may disappoint more than a few authors, and I'm pretty sure I will lose out on work because of this, but if I want my work to represent the best of cover design and ultimately translate into higher sales for the author, then it's a decision I choose to stand by.

*So, what makes an effective cover design?*

Simplicity

Keep it simple. Always. Remember that a potential reader is looking at that cover for only two seconds before deciding to click on it or not. Whatever the cover has to say needs to be conveyed in less time than that. A sign of an amateur cover (and by association, an amateur author) is a cover that is too busy.

Legibility

Far more important than any image on the cover is legibility of the title. If you can't read what it says at the smallest thumbnail size, it won't get clicked on. In short, if the image interferes with the title, change the image.

Genre

The genre of the book needs to be conveyed in those same two seconds that the potential reader is viewing the image and reading the title. Certain genres are automatically represented by certain images, colors, fonts or styles. Stick with what works. A good cover designer will already know this.

Emotion

This is the key ingredient for a great cover design that sells. This is what will convince a potential reader to click for more. The cover needs to convey an emotion quickly and simply, whether that emotion is love, lust, suspense, fear, etc.

Many cover designers will continue to create over-complicated covers that try to cram in too much, and this will cost the authors sales as they will be perceived as "amateur". That is the unfortunate nature of a competitive marketplace, and unlikely to be remedied anytime soon. This will also continue to separate the self-published authors from the traditionally published authors, in terms of quality and sales.

Professional quality covers don't have to cost thousands of dollars, but until authors let professional cover designers do what they do best, their decisions may cost them dearly in the long run.


----------



## Chris Culver (Jan 28, 2011)

I don't know if your post will be controversial, but it is an excellent, informative post. Thanks for writing it.


----------



## Error404 (Sep 6, 2012)

*bookmarks post*


----------



## Alex Owens (Mar 24, 2011)

Very well put!


----------



## Mark Philipson (Mar 9, 2013)

Covers need to be an iconic symbol that conveys a feel for the story and genre as well as invoking a response in the reader. Great post.


----------



## T.K. (Mar 8, 2011)

I agree - great information!


----------



## Preach (May 13, 2013)

Thank you Damon, very insightful  

Controversy or not, for those who don't know Damon, he's one of the best at what he does. In fact I think he designed a couple New York times best selling books. well at least I know he did Jessica Park's books, flat out love, etc.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

If you've got better ideas for my covers, I'm open to them!


----------



## Nicki Leigh (Aug 25, 2011)

Wonderful post. This is all too true when it comes to the design world. As badly as we'd like to see a scene on our covers(or show every character from the book), it usually causes the cover to become too crowded. This is the case I've run into in the past where I struggle to find room for the title and author name.

Thanks for the post.


----------



## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Great post! Thank you for writing it.

It seems everyday I learn something new and valuable from the pros on this board. I never imagined there were so many small, complex--and challenging--steps on this independent journey.


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

The only I'd disagree on is Legibility. I think Concept wins over text size if needed. We can never know really what sells a particular book. Is it certain color, is it certain shape, certain composition.. too many variables and too little time (people scan covers down the list on Amazon, covers don't even get 2 seconds). Unless something hooks your eye up, you can't really read the text that fast, so legibility is overrated. In the miliseconds it takes to scan the cover (like bilboard on the road) you don't necessarily read the text, one thing is enough to hook you up, and again, it can be shape, color, picture of the model, text, symbol etc.

_Text should be as big as possible_ but if there is an amazing image and text gets in the way, image wins, not text. Title can be read right below the image or to right of the image depending on which part of Amazon it is seen. If legible title was everything, all covers would be the same, text only covers.

Good post and great covers tho!


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Some great insight here.

Just out of curiosity, any before and after samples to look at?  I know you pointed out some covers to some big sellers, but I'd love to see some samples from your site just as kind of a before and after from this philosophy change.  

and of course...dammit! Now you're making me rethink everything I have out there.


----------



## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Great post! The truth is that since I began stalking these boards, I've noticed that the most successful authors have generally had the most professional covers. There is definitely a correlation. I'd say that most of the people who frequent these forums do great with their covers, but when I'm on Amazon, I can often tell a self-published book from a traditional one by a quick glance at the cover. I guess those are the legions of self-publishers who don't take advantage of this wonderful forum and read great posts like this!

Don't judge my hopefully soon to be published book by my signature    It's still a work in progress and posts like this are a wonderful help.


----------



## nikkarina (Jan 15, 2013)

Damon knows what he is talking about, he designed both of my book covers the old and the new. And the first one I picked (old one) caused me a lot of problems because it didn't portray my books genre well enough and confused my readers. He tried to steer me away from that one...but I am a stubborn girl. Now, I have gone with a cover by him that better portrays my book and genre. Great stuff Damon!


----------



## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

great post.


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Some great insight here.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, any before and after samples to look at? I know you pointed out some covers to some big sellers, but I'd love to see some samples from your site just as kind of a before and after from this philosophy change.
> 
> and of course...dammit! Now you're making me rethink everything I have out there.


Hi Rick

I don't have any samples on my site, as I only just decided today to speak out about this. I've just been doing whatever the author asks for, including scene creation, instead of trying to guide them to a simpler, more effective cover. Ideally, any newer covers I work on should reflect this trend.

It's tricky - trying to please the author while directing them away from what may be a bad idea, without offending anyone.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Damonza said:


> I don't have any samples on my site, as I only just decided today to speak out about this. I've just been doing whatever the author asks for, including scene creation, instead of trying to guide them to a simpler, more effective cover. Ideally, any newer covers I work on should reflect this trend.
> 
> It's tricky - trying to please the author while directing them away from what may be a bad idea, without offending anyone.


I can imagine. There's that split between trying to honor the customer being always right, with knowing that they're not and trying to convince them of it.

I have to admit you have me very curious.


----------



## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Could not agree more with this post!

When you hire a designer, you're not just hiring them for their photomanipulation skills, but for their knowledge and experience, too. If you've done your research and you've hired a professional designer, then put your trust in them! They know what they're doing! 

Hope that helps!

Rue


----------



## Mel Comley (Oct 13, 2010)

Great post. I loved the cover you created for Michael Wallace's new book.


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Damonza said:


> Hi Rick
> 
> I don't have any samples on my site, as I only just decided today to speak out about this. I've just been doing whatever the author asks for, including scene creation, instead of trying to guide them to a simpler, more effective cover. Ideally, any newer covers I work on should reflect this trend.
> 
> It's tricky - trying to please the author while directing them away from what may be a bad idea, without offending anyone.


So, as a cover designer, with this philosophy, what process do you follow to make sure that the cover represents the genre and emotion without becoming generic? 90% (a made up statistic) of YA Paranormal Romances are going to have the same emotional core. They're going to be dark and mysterious and romantic and appeal to teens. And if you don't do what the author wants you to do (e.g. a scene from the book) Do you read the book? Do you get a synopsis from the author? What kind of conversations do you have?

Note: I agree completely with your post. I'm not challenging you, I jus want to know what your process will be for getting to the genre and the emotion of a specific book.

P.s. I'll be looking for a couple of covers for some upcoming books and I like your philosophy and work.


----------



## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

Doesn't sound controversial to me. It sounds like common sense.



RBC said:


> The only I'd disagree on is Legibility. I think Concept wins over text size if needed. We can never know really what sells a particular book. Is it certain color, is it certain shape, certain composition.. too many variables and too little time (people scan covers down the list on Amazon, covers don't even get 2 seconds). Unless something hooks your eye up, you can't really read the text that fast, so legibility is overrated. In the miliseconds it takes to scan the cover (like bilboard on the road) you don't necessarily read the text, one thing is enough to hook you up, and again, it can be shape, color, picture of the model, text, symbol etc.
> 
> _Text should be as big as possible_ but if there is an amazing image and text gets in the way, image wins, not text.


I do agree with this. I've clicked on many a thumbnail that wasn't readable. I think "legibility" should be expanded to include the image as well as the title - either the title or the image, and preferably both, should be eye-catching and immediately understandable to someone looking at the thumbnail.


----------



## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

Bookmarked. Amazing post, thank you for sharing your thoughts.


----------



## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Not controversial. Good counsel.

You have an instant to convey the essence of your story. Genre. Subject. Level of sophistication.

The cover has to be eye candy that draws reader's interest like flies. A good cover makes a reader want to know more - makes them predisposed to want to read the book. It also conveys a lot of information about the implicit quality of the product. If the cover looks amateurish, I automatically assume that the writing is, too, so I pass. I'm shallow that way. I want a professional level product if I'm going to invest my time reading it. If the cover doesn't say pro, you lost me.

I made many of the mistakes you cite in your post on my first round of covers, and then changed them a year into this. I'm considering doing another change to some of them. I'm sensitive to the impact of the cover in conveying important information, and evoking a sense of what the product inside is like. I don't think you can over-stress the importance of that. It's why I would tinker with a formula that's working. Same reason I go back and rewrite novels that are selling well, if I think I can improve them. I want to improve the reader's experience whenever they look at one of my products, and I'll do whatever it takes to achieve that.

Your post should be required reading for every aspiring author out there. As well as many of the more established ones. It never hurts to hear wisdom repeated.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Have to agree...


----------



## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

Zoe Cannon said:


> Doesn't sound controversial to me. It sounds like common sense.
> 
> I do agree with this. I've clicked on many a thumbnail that wasn't readable. I think "legibility" should be expanded to include the image as well as the title - either the title or the image, and preferably both, should be eye-catching and immediately understandable to someone looking at the thumbnail.


That's a good point, Zoe and RBC! I too have clicked on thumbnail covers that I couldn't quite read clearly, but the image itself was clear and striking, which won me over.

Of course if you can read the title on top of all that, even better! You just don't want to make the text *too* big if it ends up overpowering the image.

But on all else, agreed, Damonza! Great post! I am a big fan of your cover work!


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

NathanWrann said:


> So, as a cover designer, with this philosophy, what process do you follow to make sure that the cover represents the genre and emotion without becoming generic? 90% (a made up statistic) of YA Paranormal Romances are going to have the same emotional core. They're going to be dark and mysterious and romantic and appeal to teens. And if you don't do what the author wants you to do (e.g. a scene from the book) Do you read the book? Do you get a synopsis from the author? What kind of conversations do you have?
> 
> Note: I agree completely with your post. I'm not challenging you, I jus want to know what your process will be for getting to the genre and the emotion of a specific book.
> 
> P.s. I'll be looking for a couple of covers for some upcoming books and I like your philosophy and work.


Hi Nathan

I guess there are 2 ways of looking at it. The benefit of the "generic" look, particularly with YA Paranormal Fantasies (pretty girl, long dress, stormy skies, etc.) is that it is recognizable for anybody looking for that genre. It gets the message across quickly and effectively, and works because of that fact. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It's up to the designer to do something different or unique without losing that "genre brand".

The other -riskier- option, is to step away from that generic look and try something completely unique. Unless the author specifically gives me the go ahead to do that, or leaves the design entirely up to me, I wouldn't even try. I guess it depends on the book and the author. I don't read the manuscript and work off the synopsis and "key elements" as provided by the author. In many cases, the story itself isn't incredibly unique, and the "generic" cover fits because the book itself is relatively generic.

There is no formula. I approach each cover design differently, depending on what is required. Another useful (for me) bit of info is to find out what other covers the author likes.


----------



## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Great post.


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

RBC said:


> The only I'd disagree on is Legibility. I think Concept wins over text size if needed. We can never know really what sells a particular book. Is it certain color, is it certain shape, certain composition.. too many variables and too little time (people scan covers down the list on Amazon, covers don't even get 2 seconds). Unless something hooks your eye up, you can't really read the text that fast, so legibility is overrated. In the miliseconds it takes to scan the cover (like bilboard on the road) you don't necessarily read the text, one thing is enough to hook you up, and again, it can be shape, color, picture of the model, text, symbol etc.
> 
> _Text should be as big as possible_ but if there is an amazing image and text gets in the way, image wins, not text. Title can be read right below the image or to right of the image depending on which part of Amazon it is seen. If legible title was everything, all covers would be the same, text only covers.
> 
> Good post and great covers tho!


This is a good point. Ideally, the text and the image should work together to create one great concept. However, I've also seen many covers that have a great image that's utterly ruined by poor titles, whether it's font selection, placement, size, color or combinations thereof.

In fact, I would say that's one of the key defining characteristics of many indie covers. Great image (often just a good stock photo) with the title crudely added with little thought to overall composition. I see it on many "professionally" designed covers (not from the big publishers though) - Amazing image with a grungy, bevelled, stroked font. It's a reflection of a poor cover designer and creates the perception of an amateur author (and any negative connotations attached thereto). "Legibility" may have been incorrect from my side - I guess it would be better to use "*Title treatment*" as a key element of a cover that sells.


----------



## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

Where is the "controversial" part? All of the bullet points are well known, even for beginners out of the gate.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

A great design would never look generic, even if technically it is formulaic. That's really what successful marketing in general involves.


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

Soothesayer said:


> Where is the "controversial" part? All of the bullet points are well known, even for beginners out of the gate.


It's controversial (for me) because about 70% of the cover briefs I receive ask for the creation of detailed climactic scenes out of the book, regardless of my advice, and the evidence that it's not a great idea. Although it seems many people agree with me, the requests I get don't correlate with that. When I posted this, I was just hoping I didn't lose 70% of my orders...


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

... And when you're a famous writer your NAME is the most important element on the cover


----------



## Scribbler (Apr 27, 2012)

Damonza said:


> Unfortunately, this is partly my fault.


You're forgiven. 

This is a post of much greatness.


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Damonza said:


> The other -riskier- option, is to step away from that generic look and try something completely unique. Unless the author specifically gives me the go ahead to do that, or leaves the design entirely up to me...


I like this. I want one of those covers that, at the end of the year, ends up on all of the book blogger "best covers of 2013" lists. I'll be bookmarking your site and contacting you when I'm ready.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

That is fine for some genres. It wouldn't work for others. The list of books was in a very LIMITED number of genres. Take a look at top authors in other genres and ... not so much.










Simple? No details? Really?

Even Hilary Mantel's _Wolf Hall_ which has a much less "traditional historical" looking cover than Penman's covers can hardly be called lacking in detail. That is probably good advice for some genres but you can't make that kind of simplistic statement about covers for all genres.

I would say the better advice is to study successful novels by authors in your genre and have a designer you trust.


----------



## jacklusted (Nov 29, 2012)

This is a really interesting topic to read as I come towards the end of drafting my first book and looking getting a cover. I've always liked simple covers, either with mostly typographic or with simple style and graphics and well done text. However I know that those kind of covers are rare in sci-fi, the standard being either a shot of planets with spacecraft or some future soldier with a city in the background. 

Reading this makes me think I should try and go for the kind of cover I like, whilst trying to see if it can be done in a way that communicates the genre clearly, as I think it will help my book stand out.

But overall it really makes me realise I have to hire a cover artists and need to get it done properly.


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Damonza, this was a good post and bears out my own experience. Over the past few years I've designed over a thousand covers, including some NYT and USA Today best sellers, and have worked with over a dozen publishers. I can't tell you how many of those projects I've turned in with a grimace because the author insisted on a concept that went against my professional judgment.

Clients already know they're paying not just for my services but for my years of experience and knowledge of what goes into a successful cover. But if they firmly request a specific scene, a clutter of characters, or certain images or poses that go against the genre or detract from the attractiveness of their cover, it's their call. I may gently suggest alternatives but, at the end of the day, it's my responsibility to provide the client with what they want. I can't _force_ someone to make the best decision.


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> That is fine for some genres. It wouldn't work for others. The list of books was in a very LIMITED number of genres. Take a look at top authors in other genres and ... not so much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good cover.

It IS a simple concept. Sword, shield, title and author name, all well executed. The colors, fonts and style give it the historical feel. The battle below gives it some movement, but would be largely irrelevant in terms of whether or not someone actually clicks on that cover. If the focal point was the battle (instead of the sword and shield), it would be far less effective as it would be way too muddled.

A simple cover can still have plenty of detail. A good cover designer will include the detail (if necessary) without cluttering the cover.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I used to play a cover game at B&N. I'd stand across the room and look at a cover-out display of books. I stood just far enough away that I could read neither title nor author. Then I would pick a book. Fifty percent of the time it worked, and I bought the book.


----------



## Rayne Book Covers (Sep 11, 2011)

Damonza said:


> This is a good point. Ideally, the text and the image should work together to create one great concept. However, I've also seen many covers that have a great image that's utterly ruined by poor titles, whether it's font selection, placement, size, color or combinations thereof.
> 
> In fact, I would say that's one of the key defining characteristics of many indie covers. Great image (often just a good stock photo) with the title crudely added with little thought to overall composition. I see it on many "professionally" designed covers (not from the big publishers though) - Amazing image with a grungy, bevelled, stroked font. It's a reflection of a poor cover designer and creates the perception of an amateur author (and any negative connotations attached thereto). "Legibility" may have been incorrect from my side - I guess it would be better to use "*Title treatment*" as a key element of a cover that sells.


I agree with RBC and you. Many great images get ruined by poor font choices. However, there are many great covers with less readable titles in thumbnails. As RBC said, the first thing that attracts a person's eye is the image, text goes next.

Having said that, would just like to mention that I admire your covers. If I wasn't a cover artist myself and had to pick someone else to create a book cover for me, it would most probably be you.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Damonza said:


> Good cover.
> 
> It IS a simple concept. Sword, shield, title and author name, all well executed. The colors, fonts and style give it the historical feel. The battle below gives it some movement, but would be largely irrelevant in terms of whether or not someone actually clicks on that cover. If the focal point was the battle (instead of the sword and shield), it would be far less effective as it would be way too muddled.
> 
> A simple cover can still have plenty of detail. A good cover designer will include the detail (if necessary) without cluttering the cover.


There is a LOT more to that cover than a sword, shield title and author name though. The battle below is not irrelevant at all. If it were irrelevant it wouldn't be there and it takes more than 1/3 of the cover! 

Irrelevant... 

ETA: You CANNOT do all genres the same. In historical fiction, details are NOT irrelevant. That is the Plantagenet lion rampant on that shield and recognizably Richard the Lionhearted in the battle scene you say is "irrelevant". I assure you that these are details that HF readers pay attention to.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> There is a LOT more to that cover than a sword, shield title and author name though. The battle below is not irrelevant at all. If it were irrelevant it wouldn't be there and it takes more than 1/3 of the cover!
> 
> Irrelevant...
> 
> ETA: Honestly, your comment shows more a lack of acquaintance (or respect) for HF readers than anything. You CANNOT do all genres the same.


I think you're the one missing the point, although I wholeheartedly agree that all genres are not equal. I don't think the "simple" cover idea was meant to translate into a "simplistic" cover. That cover has a lot of elements, for sure, but it doesn't look too busy or too complex. Every element works together to convey a straightforward message. In fact the most complicated element (the painting) is used in such a way not to be a distraction or to detract from the overall design. That IS a simple design, although it takes skill to produce that effect.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Greg Banks said:


> I think you're the one missing the point, although I wholeheartedly agree that all genres are not equal. I don't think the "simple" cover idea was meant to translate into a "simplistic" cover. That cover has a lot of elements, for sure, but it doesn't look too busy or too complex. Every element works together to convey a straightforward message. In fact the most complicated element (the painting) is used in such a way not to be a distraction or to detract from the overall design. That IS a simple design, although it takes skill to produce that effect.


Well, I disagree, rather strongly, that it is a simple design. It has multiple complicated elements. He does say in the OP that covers shouldn't be complicated. You want to tell me that isn't a complicated cover? (ETA: ok, you just did tell me that and I tell you that you're wrong. I mean that is as NOT simple a cover as you're likely to see. Well designed, YES! Simple? Not in the least)

I will give you that many of his points are well taken, but that all covers should lack complexity or be simplistic is not a good idea. And that IS what I came away with from his post. Nor do I agree that we should totally leave our covers up to a designer with no say in what goes on the cover of our own books. That was what publishers did in the bad old days and I'm sure as heck not going back to it.


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> There is a LOT more to that cover than a sword, shield title and author name though. The battle below is not irrelevant at all. If it were irrelevant it wouldn't be there and it takes more than 1/3 of the cover!
> 
> Irrelevant...
> 
> ETA: Honestly, your comment shows more a lack of acquaintance (or respect) for HF readers than anything. You CANNOT do all genres the same.


I am the target market for that book. Historical Fiction is actually my favorite genre to read, and one where a professionally designed cover makes a huge difference to sales, more so than many other genres (e.g. erotica). It doesn't change the fact that the _detail_ of that battle is irrelevant to whether somebody clicks on the link to read more info or read a review and buy that book. The _movement_ of the battle below adds to the overall composition of the cover, but the concept is still simple (clear) and well done.

Obviously all genres are not the same, and they will be treated differently conceptually, but a clear, well-executed concept is always going to be more effective that a complex scene recreation when it comes to sales.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Damonza said:


> I am the target market for that book. Historical Fiction is actually my favorite genre to read, and one where a professionally designed cover makes a huge difference to sales, more so than many other genres (e.g. erotica). It doesn't change the fact that the _detail_ of that battle is irrelevant to whether somebody clicks on the link to read more info or read a review and buy that book. The _movement_ of the battle below adds to the overall composition of the cover, but the concept is still simple (clear) and well done.
> 
> Obviously all genres are not the same, and they will be treated differently conceptually, but a clear, well-executed concept is always going to be more effective that a complex scene recreation when it comes to sales.


Clear and simple are not the same thing. That is a very complex scene recreation on that Penman cover which you said someone should never do.

ETA: I'm not going to argue this further because I don't want it to turn into a back and forth between us(and I apologize for one comment I deleted that came across as a personal attack which I didn't mean it to be). I just strongly disagree that you should never do scene recreations on novel covers or that simple is always better.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> Well, I disagree, rather strongly, that it is a simple design. It has multiple complicated elements. He does say in the OP that covers shouldn't be complicated. You want to tell me that isn't a complicated cover? (ETA: ok, you just did tell me that and I tell you that you're wrong. I mean that is as NOT simple a cover as you're likely to see. Well designed, YES! Simple? Not in the least)
> 
> I will give you that many of his points are well taken, but that all covers should lack complexity or be simplistic is not a good idea. And that IS what I came away with from his post. Nor do I agree that we should totally leave our covers up to a designer with no say in what goes on the cover of our own books. That was what publishers did in the bad old days and I'm sure as heck not going back to it.


And there's nothing wrong with your opinion, but you also proved that you're refusing to get the point, which is a shame, because it's really not all that different from what you're saying. Just a different way of looking at the same thing. Not going to try to convince you of something you clearly aren't interested in hearing.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Greg Banks said:


> And there's nothing wrong with your opinion, but you also proved that you're refusing to get the point, which is a shame, because it's really not all that different from what you're saying. Just a different way of looking at the same thing. Not going to try to convince you of something you clearly aren't interested in hearing.


I am not "refusing to get the point". I just disagree with you. 

I think we can agree to disagree at this point. Any further is just beating a dead... whatever.


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> Well, I disagree, rather strongly, that it is a simple design. It has multiple complicated elements. He does say in the OP that covers shouldn't be complicated. You want to tell me that isn't a complicated cover? (ETA: ok, you just did tell me that and I tell you that you're wrong. I mean that is as NOT simple a cover as you're likely to see. Well designed, YES! Simple? Not in the least)
> 
> I will give you that many of his points are well taken, but that all covers should lack complexity or be simplistic is not a good idea. And that IS what I came away with from his post. Nor do I agree that we should totally leave our covers up to a designer with no say in what goes on the cover of our own books. That was what publishers did in the bad old days and I'm sure as heck not going back to it.


It's not a simple design, but it is a simple concept. It's a complex (not complicated) design making up a clear, simple concept.

Obviously the author will have the final say over the cover design, but at some point they may have to decide if they want a lovely complicated (confusing) cover or do they want to sell more books. Ultimately, if the designer knows what they are doing, they shouldn't have any problem creating a great cover that pleases the author and sells, but the author must be open to giving the designer that freedom from the beginning.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> I am not "refusing to get the point". I just disagree with you.
> 
> I think we can agree to disagree at this point. Any further is just beating a dead... whatever.


Agreed. It's all good. And that sample you posted is an excellent cover design, by the way, however one chooses to look at it.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Damonza said:


> It's not a simple design, but it is a simple concept. It's a complex (not complicated) design making up a clear, simple concept.
> 
> Obviously the author will have the final say over the cover design, but at some point they may have to decide if they want a lovely complicated (confusing) cover or do they want to sell more books. Ultimately, if the designer knows what they are doing, they shouldn't have any problem creating a great cover that pleases the author and sells, but the author must be open to giving the designer that freedom from the beginning.


Agreed. I'm a big fan of the single main image concept. The complexity of design shouldn't appear complex. If that makes sense. It should feel clear and focused. You're even seeing this in Epic Fantasy now, which used to be rife with complex scenes.

PS - I may or may not practice what I preach.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Damon, few people here will publicly say your post is controversial.

However...

Once an author is a client, not a commentator on a chat board, all that changes.

Not in every case, obviously...

...but "I want what I want, I'm an indie, I have control, #($( it! I'm hiring you, who are you to tell me I'm wrong?" soon pops up in client-customer negotiations. 

It's fine to say, "Clients should trust me a little more... I can give them a much better product if they'd only listen to me and trust my experience!"

But if you expect a post like this to change the "I'm the one who's hiring you, you will give me what I want" dynamic, well... you'll probably end up disappointed in how that works out for you.

Authors are people.

People want what they want.

May you be granted the serenity to accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to let the customer go away satisfied, rather than just go away.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Damonza said:


> It's not a simple design, but it is a simple concept. It's a complex (not complicated) design making up a clear, simple concept.
> 
> Obviously the author will have the final say over the cover design, but at some point they may have to decide if they want a lovely complicated (confusing) cover or do they want to sell more books. Ultimately, if the designer knows what they are doing, they shouldn't have any problem creating a great cover that pleases the author and sells, but the author must be open to giving the designer that freedom from the beginning.


Well, see I admitted I agree with you on some points and I *do* think that we need to give a designer the chance to do that--design. I expect a cover designer to -- within some parameters of the story -- come up with a design for me to look at and I'm certainly not going to tell her how to do that. But see you're doing it again: Saying that a complex cover is necessarily confusing. *sigh* So I will show some restraint and withdraw (again) from this discussion.

We are not going to agree on this subject and obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to work together on covers. Oddly enough, I get along swimmingly with the designers I do work with although I expect to have a LOT of input in the art for the design. (In my HF covers, I choose the art although the designer decides how to use it) Then again, you probably hate my covers and are being too nice to say so. 

ETA: So seriously, feel free to respond but it would be better if I don't. This is far too much turning into a back and forth between three of us.



Greg Banks said:


> Agreed. It's all good. And that sample you posted is an excellent cover design, by the way, however one chooses to look at it.


Now THERE we agree on the sample. It is a great cover design imo. I would love to steal that design with different details for my next novel... but not a good idea. *sigh*

My final word on this:



> Which leads me to express my plea to authors: You decide what goes on inside your book. *Let me decide what goes on the cover*.


No.


----------



## legion (Mar 1, 2013)

Thanks for this Damonza. Great post!
I'm changing some of my covers soon because I realize they don't work (that's what I get for going cheap/free). 

I look forward to using your services someday--you clearly know what you're talking about!


----------



## Guest (Jun 5, 2013)

Great post.  I still have a lot to learn when it comes to cover design, so thanks for sharing your professional insights.


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Damon, few people here will publicly say your post is controversial.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...


Yeah, you're probably right. However, the response I've received to this discussion here and other places has at least given me the confidence to discuss other concepts with an author, and tell them why some of their ideas may not be suitable, instead of just implementing exactly what they ask for. That's okay for now.


----------



## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Damonza said:


> After designing hundreds of covers, in many different genres, I know what looks good, I know what works and I know what sells. Which leads me to express my plea to authors: You decide what goes on inside your book. Let me decide what goes on the cover.


Word. The cover is all about sales and should be treated as such. It's the stop sign of the book marketing world. A good cover is part of the book selling trifecta.


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> We are not going to agree on this subject and obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to work together on covers. Oddly enough, I get along swimmingly with the designers I do work with although I expect to have a LOT of input in the art for the design. (In my HF covers, I choose the art although the designer decides how to use it) Then again, you probably hate my covers and are being too nice to say so.
> 
> ETA: So seriously, feel free to respond but it would be better if I don't. This is far too much turning into a back and forth between three of us.
> Now THERE we agree on the sample. It is a great cover design imo. I would love to steal that design with different details for my next novel... but not a good idea. *sigh*


Actually, all the back and forth got me to click on your covers to get to your Amazon page, which led me to consider buying your books. Looks like they're right up my street.  I also believe that you'd sell more books with different covers. Anyway, I really appreciate your feedback - because yours was the only voice that disagreed with me, and I was expecting many more (and probably will encounter them again after I've sent them the first drafts).

Take care.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Damonza said:


> Actually, all the back and forth got me to click on your covers to get to your Amazon page, which led me to consider buying your books. Looks like they're right up my street.  I also believe that you'd sell more books with different covers. Anyway, I really appreciate your feedback - because yours was the only voice that disagreed with me, and I was expecting many more (and probably will encounter them again after I've sent them the first drafts).
> 
> Take care.


It's been an interesting debate. You might be right about the covers, but I'm not changing them. 

Take care.

ETA: But I freaking love that Penman cover. I would pay a LOT for a design that good. Even I will admit it is better than what my designer did (and other than giving him the art, the design was his). I drool.


----------



## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Sounds like good advice to me! My cover designer didn't give me what I said I wanted and that's one of things that I'm happiest about!  With my first book, I was really pretty clueless. I showed him some covers in my genre that I liked, told him about my book, and he came up with something much better than I could have thought up on my own.


----------



## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Damonza said:


> It's controversial (for me) because about 70% of the cover briefs I receive ask for the creation of detailed climactic scenes out of the book, regardless of my advice, and the evidence that it's not a great idea. Although it seems many people agree with me, the requests I get don't correlate with that. When I posted this, I was just hoping I didn't lose 70% of my orders...


A question about the cover brief. As a cover designer, what do you want to know about the book to design the cover? Do you just need genre, tone, and maybe an iconic item?

Edit: What's the important info that an author needs to convey to let the cover designer do the best job he can for a particular book. Or does it matter all that much?


----------



## Scarlett_R (Sep 30, 2011)

Great post, and one I'm very familiar with. This is something I've been mulling over in my own mind for the last 6 months... where is the line where I get to say "No, this isn't going to work" and the author will understand?

Then I have to think over, what is my purpose as a book cover designer in the self-publishing industry? If you have to make a decision, what is your higher priority? Compelling, beautiful design that works well and disappoints the author, or an average cover that the author loves and was to their specifications? I still can't find the middle ground, and I always believe that it's the author who is my priority.

I would love to adjust the current mind set of 'author/client is always right' to 'trust the designer' but we're still only in the kinder-years of self-publishing. Everything is new, everything is still trying to find its place within the industry. I support you 100% Damon, but as to finding out _how _to work this out... I'm still at a loss.

Author's have a right to make their suggestions, and I know of author's who have complained about another designer because the designer knocked back everything they said. It wasn't that the designer was wrong, and it's not that the author is right, but our work all comes down to a harmonious collaboration. An exploration to see what could come of it, to see if there is a middle ground. Time and time again I prove myself wrong when a client suggests something I think won't work so in that aspect it's quite healthy for me to be questioned, and I think anyone in any profession should be continuously challenged so that they're forced to grow.

I don't think this one is going to be changed straight away, I see it as something that grows over time, stronger and more stable.


----------



## Damonza (Apr 11, 2013)

David J Normoyle said:


> A question about the cover brief. As a cover designer, what do you want to know about the book to design the cover? Do you just need genre, tone, and maybe an iconic item?
> 
> Edit: What's the important info that an author needs to convey to let the cover designer do the best job he can for a particular book. Or does it matter all that much?


Hi David

We need to know as much as possible - genre, tone, target market, setting (places/time), key elements, important events, character descriptions, synopsis, what emotion you would like the reader to leave with. It's all useful information for a cover designer because any one or a few of those elements can be used to create a cover that sells.


----------



## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

If I hired someone to do covers, I would have no problem collaborating, but I would want to give input and not be dismissed. However, I was looking at bestselling book covers in the Thriller categories today, and realized that most of the trade covers didn't look very professional. These were huge trade books. Not many stood out as being really sharp and professional looking.

In YA, there's lots of people on the covers. That is a design element that attracts YA readers, and they talk about it in their reading groups on Goodreads. The Hunger Games isn't really representative of that age category. I don't disagree with the basic principles, necessarily, but it varies widely between genres. And I think the 50 Shades cover is a good example of one that isn't very appealing. I don't think that's why people bought the book, so I'm not sure those examples make a solid argument. You could argue that books attempting to appeal to both genders are more like the Hunger Games, and in fact, Maureen Johnson already did. That might be why there's no people on the cover.


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Scarlett_R said:


> Great post, and one I'm very familiar with. This is something I've been mulling over in my own mind for the last 6 months... where is the line where I get to say "No, this isn't going to work" and the author will understand?
> 
> Then I have to think over, what is my purpose as a book cover designer in the self-publishing industry? If you have to make a decision, what is your higher priority? Compelling, beautiful design that works well and disappoints the author, or an average cover that the author loves and was to their specifications? I still can't find the middle ground, and I always believe that it's the author who is my priority.
> 
> ...


All we designers can do is present the case of why something doesn't work, hopefully show examples too to make it clearer and then wait for decision. Quite often authors trust designer in my experience so I wouldn't say it's a very bad situation, but there sure are people who don't listen. Still, as long as we do our job and warn people about possible bad things and explain them, we do our job. Whatever decision.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> That is fine for some genres. It wouldn't work for others. The list of books was in a very LIMITED number of genres. Take a look at top authors in other genres and ... not so much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am so late to this party.

The thing with that cover is that there is a visual hierarchy. It isn't a bunch of stuff all over the place, like what happens when people use scenes as cover images. Where do people's eyes fall first? Most likely the bar with the title, then the sword and shield. The scenes on the bottom are low enough in the hierarchy that they are more texture than anything else.

I think hierarchy is a concept that many authors don't get, and that thumbnail-sized cover art makes it more important than ever.

Chris McGrath is a famous SFF cover artist. His older stuff is great, but is more suited for print books. Lately, his work has shifted in style so that his images are often one person, large, in front of a busy, yet very fuzzy background. The eye automatically focuses on the person and everything else is just texture.

http://static.squarespace.com/static/50c53a51e4b0112a45d8dbfb/50c541bbe4b061d0bc6ad147/51491d4be4b0e723895a9ad1/1363746506186/YoD2web.jpg

ETA: Here you can see another of his recent covers--this time with typography. The girl and the title share most of the focus. Everything else fades.

http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Kinds-Hell-Fangborn-Novel/dp/1611097959


----------



## Shalini Boland (Nov 29, 2010)

Great post and subsequent discussion. It's kept me up way later than I planned.

My problem is that I'm a control freak. I'd have good intentions about letting you design what's best for my genre and then I'd say: 'but could you...' and 'maybe you might just...' However, I'm really thinking about changing the cover's for my YA paranormal series. Sales have slowed and I know the covers aren't instantly YAish. Book 3 will be out later in the year and it would be good to brand all 3. Hmmmmm.


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Ava Glass said:


> The thing with that cover is that there is a visual hierarchy. It isn't a bunch of stuff all over the place, like what happens when people use scenes as cover images. Where do people's eyes fall first? Most likely the bar with the title, then the sword and shield. The scenes on the bottom are low enough in the hierarchy that they are more texture than anything else.
> 
> I think hierarchy is a concept that many authors don't get, and that thumbnail-sized cover art makes it more important than ever.


Bang on!!!! If there is one dominant element, then secondary then tertiary element/elements than cover can be simple even if it some elements are simple themselves and feature a battle scene even. That's why Penman's cover works so well. It's greatly balanced.


----------



## ER Pierce (Jun 4, 2013)

This is a great post, very informative. I've always subscribed to the KISS method myself, though I am an amateur designer. (Translation, I work on my own covers only) I went to school for design (Architect/interior) so I have an eye, but I am far from perfect, and I enjoy learning from others in the business, so thank you.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Ava Glass said:


> I am so late to this party.
> 
> The thing with that cover is that there is a visual hierarchy. It isn't a bunch of stuff all over the place, like what happens when people use scenes as cover images. Where do people's eyes fall first? Most likely the bar with the title, then the sword and shield. The scenes on the bottom are low enough in the hierarchy that they are more texture than anything else.
> 
> ...


Of course it isn't "stuff all over the place". I never said that it was. It is very well designed.

Those examples are no doubt good for their genre but they would be so BAD (imo) for Historical Fiction. Genre considerations are essential. What works in one genre does not by any means work in another.

ETA: I'm not a huge fan of the Cornwell covers although I enjoy a lot of his novels. (I hate '1356' but like a lot of them)

Here is one that I like very much, but it wouldn't work in other genres, I suspect:










This type cover may actually be the kind of direction I ask my designer to go in with the next cover as much as I love and lust after the Penman cover. 

Fantasy covers really should look quite different from that. I happen to love the cover of my own _The Shadow Ryana_ and think it is a fantastic and simple cover. Sales on it have slipped badly in the last two months but it has sold very well previously. "Scene" covers are very common in HF though. In its way _The Winter King_ cover is very, very simple in spite of the whole "scene" thing.

ETA: I am the first to say that I don't have a design background or a particularly good eye for design. I have, however, spent a lot of time looking at successful covers in the genres I write.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

The examples are really there to show how his style changed to accommodate the shift to ebook thumbnails. I suppose it would have helped to include some of his older stuff.

What worked in print doesn't work in e, and historical fiction isn't different in that regard.

A historical fiction cover should convey time period, tone, a little of what it's about, and do it easily with a thumbnail.

Here is Philippa Gregory's latest. Girl in color contrasted on a B/W, almost faded background. She's the focal point.

http://www.amazon.com/The-White-Princess-Cousins-ebook/dp/B00A285OOW/ref=zg_bs_157059011_22

It's pretty similar in general concept to the McGrath examples. Person on background that is almost texture.

This cover has a train, a scene of war, and a manor house. They're faded and don't compete with the titles.

http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Giants-Century-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B0052RDHTM/ref=zg_bs_157059011_19

I'm not going to put words in the OP's mouth, but it's possible he meant, "mind the hierarchy," not "everyone must have Twilight style covers." However, I do see representational covers a lot in historical fiction.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

I've heard it said in the past that the _Hunger Games_ and _Fifty Shades of Grey_ covers succeeded because they were supplemented by massive advertising campaigns. Is there any truth to this?


----------



## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

So, most of what everyone said in this thread is pretty much what I have been slowly learning, but one point I am not sure on, and it was probably said and I missed it... 

BUT if you DO NOT pick a scene from the book, then what goes on the cover? Should it not be tied to the story in the book somehow?


----------



## horse_girl (Apr 9, 2010)

This is a lively debate. I appreciate what you've posted, Damonza, and wish I had that information 3-4 years ago, when I was starting out. I've been working through many of my covers to replace them with professionally made covers. Through working with different artists I've learned one thing--trust the artist. I think that needs to be stressed to newbies. As an author, we can supply the tone, characters, and synopsis, but we specialize in the words, not the pictures.

That said, I am trying to learn about cover design and find the posts on KB useful. Thanks for contributing.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

VydorScope said:


> So, most of what everyone said in this thread is pretty much what I have been slowly learning, but one point I am not sure on, and it was probably said and I missed it...
> 
> BUT if you DO NOT pick a scene from the book, then what goes on the cover? Should it not be tied to the story in the book somehow?


I'm almost graphics illiterate, but here's what I understand. You want to send the strongest possible message as to the book's genre and mood. You want to lure people who will like the book to read the blurb, peek at the contents, and to know what they'll be getting. Not, to know what the plotline will be, but to give them some idea if they're getting a comedy or tragedy, light book or thoughtful book, and so on.

So, although you don't want to illustrate a scene that's blatantly _not_ in the book, (and I've laughed at many traditionally published books, over the years, whose covers did just that), there's no need to illustrate a specific scene.


----------



## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Here's my analysis of the Penman cover, which demonstrates a concept from art school quite nicely.

The concept: a good illustration should have IMPACT and _payoff_.

IMPACT is an immediately eye-grabbing feature, the thing you look at first. For the Penman cover, that's the hard contrast of author's last name in white against the black background. It's the highest contrast in the whole image, so it's the first focal point.

The second focal point is the sword/shield/blade area. The blade offers a strong vertical element, drawing the eye to the title. The red/gold color contrast is strongish, but not nearly so compared to the stark black/white of the author name, plus it has a nice muted-but-warm color harmony going on.

So what and where is the _payoff_? _Payoff _is that thing you notice after you've been looking at the image awhile, the thing that makes you go "OMG, look at this thing over here" while you point to an obscure part of the image.

The payoff is the battle scene at the bottom. In thumbnail, and on first glance, this area is largely unintelligible, and that's OK. The name and the shield carry the image on IMPACT. The viewer doesn't pick up the battle scene until payoff, and it's the structured management of contract and eye-pathing that keeps this cover from being busy.

We hear all the time that covers have to look good at thumbnail size, and that's shorthand for saying the IMPACT has to be strong and clear. Payoff is usually not visible at thumbnail size.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> I've heard it said in the past that the _Hunger Games_ and _Fifty Shades of Grey_ covers succeeded because they were supplemented by massive advertising campaigns. Is there any truth to this?


Ad campaigns don't guarantee success any more than a great cover does. No single element goes into a book's success, but they can bring attention to the material itself. Then it's up to the material to capture an audience, and clearly, The Hunger Games and 50 Shades of Grey did just that.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I love that post. I've been doing some covers for friends, and to be honest, as soon as they start talking about "there's this scene I want illustrated", I tell them "Maybe you should look at getting a professional designer", because I don't want that argument. It doesn't work, it's a nightmare for both parties involved, and rarely results in a great cover.

Cover colour/brightness/genre identification are MUCH MUCH MUCH more important than faithfulness to the story.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Ava Glass said:


> The examples are really there to show how his style changed to accommodate the shift to ebook thumbnails. I suppose it would have helped to include some of his older stuff.
> 
> What worked in print doesn't work in e, and historical fiction isn't different in that regard.
> 
> ...


There is no argument that ebook covers with the need to look good at thumbnail size have different cover requirements than older books.

I don't at all like the Follett cover and don't think it looks good either full size or thumbnail. Then again (like that horrible recent Rowling cover) he will sell whatever his cover looks like. Frankly, I think a lot of Big 6 novels have rather bad covers. They depend on other factors (author name and coop placement in bookstores) for sales. The Gregory cover is typical for her since her novels are closer to Historical Romance than anything else. I would say that cover would work well for her. It would certainly warn me away from her book since I'd hate it. 

ETA: And telling people who would hate a novel not to buy it is one valid purpose of a cover. Saves a lot of really bad reviews. 

The 'single figure looking terribly romantic' is a cover I avoid like the plague for my generally fairly "gritty" novels. It would cause a lot of disappointment in my reader. So I do agree that your cover really needs to the tone of the novel.


----------



## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

Greg Banks said:


> Ad campaigns don't guarantee success any more than a great cover does. No single element goes into a book's success, but they can bring attention to the material itself. Then it's up to the material to capture an audience, and clearly, The Hunger Games and 50 Shades of Grey did just that.


Actually, 50 Shades had a following before it was published in book form. It was on fanfiction.net


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

Greg Banks said:


> Ad campaigns don't guarantee success any more than a great cover does. No single element goes into a book's success, but they can bring attention to the material itself. Then it's up to the material to capture an audience, and clearly, The Hunger Games and 50 Shades of Grey did just that.


Sorry. I didn't express myself clearly. I was not saying that the ad campaign guaranteed success. I was trying to say that I'd heard that the ad campaign, or other prior fame of the books, made it unnecessary for the covers to proclaim the genre clearly.

To the extent that that is true, the covers become outliers, and we can't assume that our average lightly promoted material can get away with a vague cover.


----------



## Nicholas Andrews (Sep 8, 2011)

Damonza said:


> Examples of effective covers that sell include the 50 Shades books, Twilight, Game of Thrones books, The Hunger Games books. Some have sold millions of copies. How many of them have a specific scene or character on the cover? None.


False. The first editions I bought of the first three Martin books all had characters and/or scenes depicted on the covers. It wasn't until Martin's name got big enough to sell books on its own strength that they switched to simpler covers. And once the HBO series came along, you could have put anything on the cover and they would have sold. But when the publishers were building Martin's name, they went with more story-centric covers.


----------



## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> Sorry. I didn't express myself clearly. I was not saying that the ad campaign guaranteed success. I was trying to say that I'd heard that the ad campaign, or other prior fame of the books, made it unnecessary for the covers to proclaim the genre clearly.


So this is true. I have never been to fanfiction.net, nor have I ever heard of the author, and all that. BUT thanks to all the advertising, I know exactly what 50 Shades is, and I knew that long before I ever saw the cover. I do not think its cover works, and I think that it is a case where the book is succeeding DESPITE the cover, which does happen.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

VydorScope said:


> So this is true. I have never been to fanfiction.net, nor have I ever heard of the author, and all that. BUT thanks to all the advertising, I know exactly what 50 Shades is, and I knew that long before I ever saw the cover. I do not think its cover works, and I think that it is a case where the book is succeeding DESPITE the cover, which does happen.


This is terrible of me, but I remember, a year ago, hearing someone say: "I'm going to get _50 Shades of Grey_ and read it," and my (silent!) reaction being: "Hmmm, I not only didn't know that she read books, I wouldn't have bet much money on the idea that she _could_ read.)


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

NicholasAndrews said:


> False. The first editions I bought of the first three Martin books all had characters and/or scenes depicted on the covers. It wasn't until Martin's name got big enough to sell books on its own strength that they switched to simpler covers. And once the HBO series came along, you could have put anything on the cover and they would have sold. But when the publishers were building Martin's name, they went with more story-centric covers.


Those covers work on a paperback. Not much for a thumbnail. Could that have been a factor as well?


----------



## Nicholas Andrews (Sep 8, 2011)

Ava Glass said:


> Those covers work on a paperback. Not much for a thumbnail. Could that have been a factor as well?


In my opinion, no. By the time A Feast for Crows came out in 2005, Martin was well-established as one of the best fantasy writers today, and e-books weren't a blip on the radar yet as far as traditional publishers were concerned. And so they came up with this cover:










The lack of creativity suggests to me that they felt his name was strong enough to make the best-seller list no matter what was on the cover. After that, later editions of the earlier books followed suit with this simplistic design choice. I don't think e-books had anything to do with it at all.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NicholasAndrews said:


> In my opinion, no. By the time A Feast for Crows came out in 2005, Martin was well-established as one of the best fantasy writers today, and e-books weren't a blip on the radar yet as far as traditional publishers were concerned. And so they came up with this cover:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really good point. Goes along with the simplistic cover of the Rowling novel. For some authors, you could put a dog turd on a cover and it wouldn't matter.

That's my opinion with Follett who will sell whatever is on the front.

ETA: By the way, I think that GoT original cover works just fine in thumbnail. Legible, you don't lose excessive detail and shows the type of story it is. Thanks for bringing it up. I'd forgotten what those early covers looked like.


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

NicholasAndrews said:


> False. The first editions I bought of the first three Martin books all had characters and/or scenes depicted on the covers. It wasn't until Martin's name got big enough to sell books on its own strength that they switched to simpler covers. And once the HBO series came along, you could have put anything on the cover and they would have sold. But when the publishers were building Martin's name, they went with more story-centric covers.


I could be wrong but I would venture to guess that more copies of the GoT series have sold with the new covers than sold with the old covers. And you can claim that it's because of the author's name and the HBO series but I guarantee you, with those old, bad covers on them there are plenty of lay people that, despite watching the show or being caught up in the hype, wouldn't open their wallet for them. Also, those covers were created and released for a different time. This thread is about cover design in 2013, not 1996.

Btw, here's the first edition hardcover design:








pretty clean.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

NicholasAndrews said:


> In my opinion, no. By the time A Feast for Crows came out in 2005, Martin was well-established as one of the best fantasy writers today, and e-books weren't a blip on the radar yet as far as traditional publishers were concerned. And so they came up with this cover:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then it's like Danielle Steel. Not much on her covers back in the day except her name HUGE.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Maybe when a publisher knows with dead certainty the author's next book will be a bestseller, they deliberately underplay the genre signifiers. With Martin's first books in the series, they'd want to grab hold of every epic fantasy fan they could get. But by AFFC, with a core readership guaranteed, maybe the goal with the covers was to reach as broad an audience as possible.

Or I could be full of it.


----------



## Michael Murray (Oct 31, 2011)

Damonza said:


> Examples of effective covers that sell include the 50 Shades books, Twilight, Game of Thrones books, The Hunger Games books. Some have sold millions of copies. How many of them have a specific scene or character on the cover? None.


Several editions of Game of Thrones had characters on the cover http://www.georgerrmartin.com/cover-art-gallery/?id=249.

I like characters on the cover better than symbols, and generally buy books with an interesting character, but I may well not be the norm

My impression is that the hardcovers tend to have symbolic covers, while many paperbacks have characters on the cover. Did the hardcover Hunger Games with the golden Mockingjay sell better than the paperback with Katniss? Or is it that the hardcover market expects a more symbolic cover?


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

Michael Murray said:


> Several editions of Game of Thrones had characters on the cover http://www.georgerrmartin.com/cover-art-gallery/?id=249.
> 
> I like characters on the cover better than symbols, and generally buy books with an interesting character, but I may well not be the norm
> 
> My impression is that the hardcovers tend to have symbolic covers, while many paperbacks have characters on the cover. Did the hardcover Hunger Games with the golden Mockingjay sell better than the paperback with Katniss? Or is it that the hardcover market expects a more symbolic cover?


Could it be that people who buy the hardcover are already 'sold' on the book for one reason or another, while paperbacks still fall into the impulse buy category? (I should confess that I'm cheap. I've bought paperbacks on impulse, but hardcover fiction, never.)


----------



## Nicholas Andrews (Sep 8, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> I could be wrong but I would venture to guess that more copies of the GoT series have sold with the new covers than sold with the old covers. And you can claim that it's because of the author's name and the HBO series but I guarantee you, with those old, bad covers on them there are plenty of lay people that, despite watching the show or being caught up in the hype, wouldn't open their wallet for them. Also, those covers were created and released for a different time. This thread is about cover design in 2013, not 1996.
> 
> Btw, here's the first edition hardcover design:
> 
> ...


My real point is the OP cannot claim this particular author in his argument because that author didn't suddenly spring onto the scene in the 2010s with the cover designs that support his argument and become a bestseller. He didn't take into account the near twenty year publication history of the series and the multiple editions and covers that came before, or the effect that the HBO series and the marketing campaign around it had on driving sales, rather than what was on the cover.

As far as the original hardcover image is concerned, I much prefer the "scene" covers. I wouldn't have looked twice at the Iron Throne cover back in the day, but the Jon Snow cover immediately caught my eye and led me to buying the book. Since that's what it was changed to for the paperback, it seems the publishers felt that was the way to go as well.

And really? You "guarantee" that "plenty of people" who saw the series wouldn't have bought the books if the covers had stayed the same? I'd like to see some quantifiable evidence for that guarantee. All this is just opinion, my own statements included. None of us are privy to the detailed sales information or marketing strategies employed by the publishers.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NicholasAndrews said:


> My real point is the OP cannot claim this particular author in his argument because that author didn't suddenly spring onto the scene in the 2010s with the cover designs that support his argument and become a bestseller. He didn't take into account the near twenty year publication history of the series and the multiple editions and covers that came before, or the effect that the HBO series and the marketing campaign around it had on driving sales, rather than what was on the cover.
> 
> As far as the original hardcover image is concerned, I much prefer the "scene" covers. I wouldn't have looked twice at the Iron Throne cover back in the day, but the Jon Snow cover immediately caught my eye and led me to buying the book. Since that's what it was changed to for the paperback, it seems the publishers felt that was the way to go as well.
> 
> And really? You "guarantee" that "plenty of people" who saw the series wouldn't have bought the books if the covers had stayed the same? I'd like to see some quantifiable evidence for that guarantee. All this is just opinion, my own statements included. None of us are privy to the detailed sales information or marketing strategies employed by the publishers.


Like you, it was that Jon Snow cover that led me to buy my first copy. (Funny that I'd forgotten that cover but it was few years ago) I wouldn't have bought one of the 'stylized symbol' ones before I was already caught up in the series. But then I don't care for that type of cover in general either.


----------



## Nicholas Andrews (Sep 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Like you, it was that Jon Snow cover that led me to buy my first copy. (Funny that I'd forgotten that cover but it was few years ago) I wouldn't have bought one of the 'stylized symbol' ones before I was already caught up in the series. But then I don't care for that type of cover in general either.


Exactly. I can only speak of my own experience, not what anyone else might be thinking when looking to purchase a book. I agree that just like there is no magic button for marketing your book to become a bestseller, there is no magic formula to covers that will give you an advantage. Design has to be taken on a case-by-cases basis on what's best for the novel, whether it means a simple cover or a complicated one. Once a designer interjects his own biases into the project, they become hurtful rather than helpful. I would personally not hire a designer/artist that had the OP's attitude.

I should also add that I recently commissioned a "scene" cover from Keith Draws for a future book. Some feel the image is a little too busy, and I did have different ideas, but ultimately went with the one I felt in my heart was the right choice for that particular book. Since the cover can be as ambiguous as anything else in "why a book sells," that's all you can really do as a writer.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Now here's a question for the design folks.

If an author is selling only ebooks, is it that important to have the title all appear all that large if it appears again next to the thumbnail? I'm not saying the title be unreadable, just that it be secondary to something else, such as a person. Of course the design would have to be unified and all that.

Sometimes I wonder if it is even necessary to put a title on an ebook cover thumbnail anymore. It doesn't have to do all the work of identifying it. Why not just a visual representation and the title next to it in the list?

I'm just throwing stuff out there because we're having this intense discussion on cover design. I love fonts. I just bought this set, although I worry it's too thin.

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/matt-frost/aegean/


----------



## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

Damonza said:


> It's tricky - trying to please the author while directing them away from what may be a bad idea, without offending anyone.


Publishers have faced that particular problem for many years now, and it's worse with the advent of the internet, twitter, mailing lists, etc. I belong to a pro author group, and it's not uncommon for someone to post an anguished email along with a draft cover their publisher has just sent them (anguished often with good reason, to be honest.)

There's always going to be a disconnect between marketing and art - as an author I'd prefer to sell more books, rather than have a cover which is 100% accurate, but then my background is small business and marketing.


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Ava Glass said:


> Now here's a question for the design folks.
> 
> If an author is selling only ebooks, is it that important to have the title all that large if it appears again next to the thumbnail? I'm not saying the title be unreadable, just that it be secondary to something else, such as a person. Of course the design would have to be unified and all that.
> 
> ...


Personally, I would be willing to test textless cover. But it is risky. Not everyone would do it..

There are some like that tho, books from The Domino Project Seth Godin and Amazon did few years ago (books like Do The Work or Poke The Box). No titles there, no author names.

It may work it may not. Maybe the fact that there is no text on the cover alone will be attraction and will get people to click-through to read description. But again, only if you're willing to experiment and be a black swan. On the positive note, it's easy to change the cover and add text if it doesn't work out even.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

I just feel like it would free up a huge chunk of the design pie. A teeny-tiny thumbnail-sized pie.


----------



## Vanades (Aug 10, 2012)

I've seen a few textless covers, mostly in the erotica section and they always look very amateurish to me, but then those were all raw, unedited images so I guess they were simply  slapped on the ebook so that it had a *cover*and not carefully thought-out designs.

I'm not sure that textless covers work, but then it simply might be because I'm so used to having text on a book cover that I simply expect to see the title and author somewhere. Yet there have been a few covers that had images on it that I would have loved to have as a poster without the text on it.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

NathanWrann said:


> This thread is about cover design in 2013, not 1996.


Damonza is spot on, and Nathan explains WHY with his simple comment above.

Yes, I've been guilty of giving the client what they want over what I know would work best for the book. But I'm now making an effort (like Damonza) to explain to authors what would be the best way to go, and why.

Please note that we're NOT saying that every cover should have a single symbol/object on it and nothing else. *What works best for the book is determined by the book itself*. However it's important to note that today's readers are significantly less patient than the readers of yesteryear. If the book doesn't grab their attention IMMEDIATELY, they will move on to the next book.

This problem of complexity is compounded by the fact that most of our readers are now looking at our book as a thumbnail, not a full paperback or hardcover. Our readers are not leisurely browsers so much as readers who are determined to find their next favourite book...right now.

As designers, it's our job to know exactly what makes an effective cover, RIGHT NOW (not what made an effective cover 15 years ago). We know what signals readers are looking for, and what will catch their eye. We know how to translate the essence of a book to its cover design, so that readers know what they're in for. This means that readers who will love your book are more likely to buy it, and readers who will dislike your book will avoid it (this means fewer negative reviews for the author). We know these things because it's our job to know.

I'm sure Damonza will have similar data, but when I remake an existing cover design (e.g. an author originally went with an amateur designer, but now wants to jazz things up), authors have _consistently reported much higher sales/downloads_. Each of these authors micromanaged their first jobs, but when they hired me, they let me use my best judgement. These authors stuck to what they knew best, and then let me do what I knew best. This lead to success.

*If you can't trust your designer to produce a cover that will sell your book, you're choosing the wrong designer.*

I'm with Damonza all the way. And it's NOT because doing so somehow benefits me. I WANT authors to achieve crazy success with their books. That means that I'm going to keep my ear to the ground and find out how to do that.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> I could be wrong but I would venture to guess that more copies of the GoT series have sold with the new covers than sold with the old covers. And you can claim that it's because of the author's name and the HBO series but I guarantee you, with those old, bad covers on them there are plenty of lay people that, despite watching the show or being caught up in the hype, wouldn't open their wallet for them. Also, those covers were created and released for a different time. *This thread is about cover design in 2013, not 1996. *
> 
> Btw, here's the first edition hardcover design:
> 
> ...


Exactly what design principles have changed in the last 15 years. I must admit my curiosity.


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Ava Glass said:


> I just feel like it would free up a huge chunk of the design pie. A teeny-tiny thumbnail-sized pie.


Well, if your gut tells you to do it... do it!!!  Again, these days you can test things easily so you aren't risking as much as you'd have previously.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

BelindaPepper said:


> Damonza is spot on, and Nathan explains WHY with his simple comment above.
> 
> Yes, I've been guilty of giving the client what they want over what I know would work best for the book. But I'm now making an effort (like Damonza) to explain to authors what would be the best way to go, and why.
> 
> ...


*Any designer who demanded that I turn over complete control to them would certainly be the wrong designer for me. *

And other than it is likely to be seen in thumbnail so must be legible in a small size, I know of NO way that design principles have made major changes in the last 15 years nor are readers any more impatient than they were 15 years ago as far as I know. But authors are _definitely_ less likely to give someone else complete control of their work and that includes cover designers.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

NathanWrann said:


> I could be wrong but I would venture to guess that more copies of the GoT series have sold with the new covers than sold with the old covers. And you can claim that it's because of the author's name and the HBO series but I guarantee you, with those old, bad covers on them there are plenty of lay people that, despite watching the show or being caught up in the hype, wouldn't open their wallet for them. Also, those covers were created and released for a different time. This thread is about cover design in 2013, not 1996...


I think that's making a huge assumption that you have no evidence to support it. The fact is that by the time the new covers came about, Martin's name was far more of a known brand by then. You can't remotely assume that the new covers sold the books when by that point most of the buyers were assuredly buying them _because_ they were specifically looking for the author's works.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> *Any designer who demanded that I turn over complete control to them would certainly be the wrong designer for me. *
> 
> And other than it is likely to be seen in thumbnail so must be legible in a small size, I know of NO way that design principles have made major changes in the last 15 years nor are readers any more impatient than they were 15 years ago as far as I know. But authors are definitely less likely to give someone else complete control of their work and that includes cover designers.


Note that cover designers aren't going to deliberately do something the author hates, even if they do have complete control. The designer will know from discussions with the author _and even from the book itself_ what the author likes. I'm not sure where the correlation is. Cover designer doing what is best for your book sales _doesn't _mean that they will do a design you hate.

Design principles don't change. Marketing techniques do. And your book cover is essentially the most critical piece of advertising material for your book.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Personally, I don't think everything needs to be legible at thumbnail size. I think the cover needs to convey tone, genre, and be eye-catching. I don't have to be able to read every letter of the title or every part of an author's name since I will almost always see the cover next to plain text that has that information for me.  What I want in a cover is that it tells me "hey, this is a professionally done, interesting book in a genre you read!" and says that nice and loud.

I think typography is key, but in terms of how it conveys that the book is quality and how it conveys genre, not in terms of how readable it necessarily is.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

BelindaPepper said:


> Note that cover designers aren't going to deliberately do something the author hates, even if they do have complete control. The designer will know from discussions with the author _and even from the book itself_ what the author likes. I'm not sure where the correlation is. Cover designer doing what is best for your book sales _doesn't _mean that they will do a design you hate.
> 
> Design principles don't change. Marketing techniques do. And your book cover is essentially the most critical piece of advertising material for your book.


It better be better than that I don't _hate_ it if I am paying for it and putting it on MY novel. Let me make it very clear. No one has complete control over my novels but ME.

And since design principles haven't changed, you haven't shown me that what makes a good cover has changed.

ETA: I would never, ever, EVER tell a designer that they can put whatever they want on one of my covers. The very idea is just absurd to me.


----------



## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Excellent post. Well-thought out.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Also, re: the first GoT hardback cover? It's been acknowledged by quite a few old time SF/F pros that they all feel that cover was terrible (and considered terrible at the time as well, not just now) and that GRRM was lucky to sell in spite of it.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Doomed Muse said:


> Personally, I don't think everything needs to be legible at thumbnail size. I think the cover needs to convey tone, genre, and be eye-catching. I don't have to be able to read every letter of the title or every part of an author's name since I will almost always see the cover next to plain text that has that information for me. What I want in a cover is that it tells me "hey, this is a professionally done, interesting book in a genre you read!" and says that nice and loud.
> 
> I think typography is key, but in terms of how it conveys that the book is quality and how it conveys genre, not in terms of how readable it necessarily is.


Good point, Doomed Muse. I do think you need to be able to make out the illustration reasonably well, although you'll lose detail. But some end up with the illustration nothing but a blur which is bad. 

The whole thumbnail thing is a complication.


----------



## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

This is an interesting discussion and I both agree and disagree with the OP. On the agree side, I think yeah, most self published authors don't "get" cover design. But I think "cover artist" and "cover designer" are not the same thing, necessarily. And I think an artist needs to know what they don't know.

When you self publish you are the publisher, and you need to be all the roles that exist in a publishing house. A cover is often conceptualized by a designer in conjunction with marketing, and that concept is outlined in a brief and sent to an artist who makes the magic happen. You need to understand what's selling (marketing) in order to create an effective cover for your target market. So while I agree that a lot of authors don't know that they're poor "designers," being a great artist does not mean you're great at marketing. That doesn't mean an artist shouldn't voice their concerns or opinions, I totally agree that they should.

I also think cover design needs to be a collaborative process between author and artist. The author needs to be clear about what they want, but they need to be ready to adjust their expectations. When I see a bad cover by a SP author, I 100% blame the author.

Case in point.

My covers are pretty simple designs. I spend months thinking about the covers, trying to come up with designs. When I am ready, I approach the designer with a few ideas that are very clear.

For the third cover of my book, for example, I told him I wanted a jet crashing in the background, and in the foreground I want a teen-aged kid running with a little girl he's trying to save - or a kid protectively covering the little girl.

I provided the following images to illustrate what I wanted:
























I also provided images of kids who fit the age profiles of the characters I wanted depicted. What I then said was, "that's the general idea I'm looking for, please play to your strengths when you create it." What I got was the image in my signature (click "Author website" to see larger image). Was it the image I had in my head? No. But it's the right concept, and imo it's effective.

My point is that I may be an author, but a cover is marketing, and not all artists understand marketing. They understand art, and how to implement designs effectively, but marketing is a different skill all together and if an author is doing it alone, they better learn, or seek advice. You, the author, really needs to be familiar with that segment of the market your book targets.

I want the feedback and I want the collaboration. If I come up with a concept a designer can't do confidently, I want to hear it. I'll come up with something else. But I don't want hand holding.


----------



## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

In a bookstore books are placed by genre and if you search online bookstores you can also search by genre. With Amazon et al, when you decide to look at the lists of newest or bestselling you are faced with columns of thumbnails that look like an explosion in a confetti factory. Even when you examine more closely you often find that you have clicked on a book's cover only to discover that it is a genre unrelated to the impression given by it's cover. I find this extremely aggravating.

I work with books, 24x7, but I do still read for pleasure. When looking for new material I will generally scan through Amazon's best selling lists. I will NEVER click on a book that has a shirtless guy or a nude or skimpily dressed female on it. The same goes for dragons or vampires. From experience I know that they are extremely unlikely to be books that I would enjoy. I have occasionally been surprised - usually when dealing with a client's backlist - to find that one with a cover that turns me off is actually a genre that I enjoy, and is well written. Even so I still won't click on each title 'just in case". I don't have that much patience nor time to waste. 

The point that I am making is that as well as attracting new readers, don't repel them by using a cover that can be uncertain as to genre or is a graphical cliche.


----------



## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

Without a great title a great cover can't help much, it seems to me, and it's titling that truly gets the short shrift IMO.

But many thanks for the post, Damonza. (Based on your OP, I'm thinking my request for tweaks to Fortress of Ephemera didn't fuck up the cover too badly!)


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Steve W. said:


> This is an interesting discussion and I both agree and disagree with the OP. On the agree side, I think yeah, most self published authors don't "get" cover design. But I think "cover artist" and "cover designer" are not the same thing, necessarily. And I think an artist needs to know what they don't know.
> 
> When you self publish you are the publisher, and you need to be all the roles that exist in a publishing house. A cover is often conceptualized by a designer in conjunction with marketing, and that concept is outlined in a brief and sent to an artist who makes the magic happen. You need to understand what's selling (marketing) in order to create an effective cover for your target market. So while I agree that a lot of authors don't know that they're poor "designers," being a great artist does not mean you're great at marketing. That doesn't mean an artist shouldn't voice their concerns or opinions, I totally agree that they should.
> 
> ...


I think Steve's post should be hung up in bright shining lights.  This is exactly what I've been trying to say, albeit so ineffectually (I'm recovering from a bad flu...that's my excuse). 

Steve's direction given to the designer worked for his genre and target market, so the designer went with it. However, the designer also did what was best for book sales right now, and that is to create an iconic image that captures a reader's attention (even at small size) and give an instant sense of the book's content. Catering for leisurely browsers is gone. Grabbing readers by the throat is the motto of the day (and this can be achieved even in "softer" genres like romance and chic lit).

The problem comes in when authors have a super specific idea, and are completely non-negotiable on its execution. Because this _often _results in a cover that doesn't sell the book quite as well as an alternative design could.

For example, Steve could have said, _"I want the main characters to be running through a forest, with a dilapidated city in the background, and a jet fighter crashing into the ground behind them. I want the guy to be carrying the girl over his left shoulder, and he should be wearing clothes that look like this. In the foreground, there should be a multitude of rats all scurrying over each other to get away, and amongst them should be a brown rat with a stripe down his back"._
And then he might've mentioned that the book was an adult horror novel.

Presuming the cover designer was either a brilliant illustrator OR had a brilliant illustrator working under him, he could very well have produced a truly kick-ass scene that matched the exact vision Steve had in mind. But would it have been the best design possible, to result in the highest possible sales in the current market? Nope.

Sorry for butchering your story Steve, but you gave such an awesome example that I couldn't help but to extrapolate on the idea.


----------



## Scarlett_R (Sep 30, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> It better be better than that I don't _hate_ it if I am paying for it and putting it on MY novel. Let me make it very clear. No one has complete control over my novels but ME.
> 
> And since design principles haven't changed, you haven't shown me that what makes a good cover has changed.
> 
> ETA: I would never, ever, EVER tell a designer that they can put whatever they want on one of my covers. The very idea is just absurd to me.


First question (this is just something that popped up in my mind and I'd love to know your thoughts): Would you prefer a. A book cover you loved but would not do so well for your sales or b. A book cover you hated and were really disappointed in, but it was proven to sell very, very successfully?

Second part: I don't think the practice of book design has changed so much. Of course it has had to adjust its course due to the self-publishing boom but I think, in my opinion, it is the relationship between a professional and an author, which wasn't ever there before, which has changed.

When dealing with traditional publishers you are working with people in marketing and design who know what's best for the book. The author very rarely got a say, and when they did it was considered but if it didn't work, would be struck off the record.

Now that author's are getting a say--the only say-- there is that possible conflict arising, that what if the author wants something that won't work?

If a concept is pitched to me by the marketing and design department I know they understand where I'm coming from and they would work with ideas they know are trusted, proven, and combine a great use of design principles. If a concept is pitched to me by the author, sometimes I have to step back and really ask myself_ is this possible?_ Because the author doesn't have that experience, even when they envision the cover in their head and I replicate it for them it can make them realise that this wasn't the best idea after all.

If the idea isn't possible, or if I feel it could be possible but wouldn't be right for the book, I then have to translate that in a way in which the author will understand and support my decision. I don't think book design basics has changed a dramatic amount in the past 10-15 years (and I could be totally wrong about that) but how I, as a book designer, deal with concepts, translating those ideas, and conveying them to my clients has been the big change.

I think I'm getting off track here but figured I'd put my 2c in anyway! Good discussion.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

From now on, I'm just going to convey my thoughts by saying, _"What Damonza & Scarlett said."_


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Maybe when a publisher knows with dead certainty the author's next book will be a bestseller, they deliberately underplay the genre signifiers. With Martin's first books in the series, they'd want to grab hold of every epic fantasy fan they could get. But by AFFC, with a core readership guaranteed, maybe the goal with the covers was to reach as broad an audience as possible.
> 
> Or I could be full of it.


I think you're on to something.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Scarlett_R said:


> First question (this is just something that popped up in my mind and I'd love to know your thoughts): Would you prefer a. A book cover you loved but would not do so well for your sales or b. A book cover you hated and were really disappointed in, but it was proven to sell very, very successfully?
> 
> Second part: I don't think the practice of book design has changed so much. Of course it has had to adjust its course due to the self-publishing boom but I think, in my opinion, it is the relationship between a professional and an author, which wasn't ever there before, which has changed.
> 
> ...


You are missing something. No cover I hated and was really disappointed in would go on one of my novels so you are presenting something that isn't a possibility. I do NOT hand over control. If you expected that, Scarlett, I plain and simple wouldn't hire you.

Do I listen to my designer? Of course. If I suggested something and the designer said, "OMG that just wouldn't work" I would probably go with their expertise although I would expect some discussion of why. I would expect some alternative ideas. Usually I give my designer pretty free rein but the final ok is MINE. If they do something and I don't like it (remember that cover just discussed for _The Shadow Gypsy_? It had an element I didn't like that I got feedback on and changed) I would no doubt get some second opinions and if I decided that *I* was right, I would EXPECT the designer to change it. I have never had a designer refuse.

ETA: And considering that I have seen some pretty terrible covers on some Big 6 novels, you'll forgive me if I am in doubt that all of them are that expert on what marketing works. 

I am a bit irritated at this discussion because 1. I always have had great working relationships with my designers and feel as though I'm being put in a position that sounds hostile to designers when I'm not, 2. I think you are asking something that is entirely unreasonable, and 3. what you are asking isn't even a good thing. A LOT of novels got TERRIBLE covers because authors never did have control before. I am sure as heck not giving it up.


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe this has already been touched on, but after reading the beginning post and some near the end, I see a couple glaring misconceptions going on that I just have to mention:

*Myth*: All publishers make good decisions about cover art.
*Fact*: Many trad-to-indie hybrid authors are telling us that they took the rights back for books that didn't sell worth a hoot, changed the cover, and BOOM, sold the hell out of that book. Many complain about the terrible cover art that they were stuck with, and no matter how much they complained, they couldn't get it changed. It killed their book. So, to assume a professional graphic artist who specializes in making book covers and works for a trad publisher always knows what will sell a book is hogwash.

*Myth*: All indie writers are writers only and do not have the artistic eye to know what a good cover is and what cover will sell a book, so they should leave the designing to a professional cover designer.
*Fact*: Many indie writers are amazing graphic artists even without having taken any design courses. I've seen several covers done by indie writers that are by and far better than their trad-pubbed peers' books. And those peers had their stuff done by "professionals".

Simple facts are:

(1) Sometimes a cover artist (be she a graphic designer or a writer who likes to do graphic art) hits the nail on the head, and sometimes she misses entirely. No one can get it exactly right every time. I've seen the pro cover portfolios on many designers' sites, and even there, with just a single artist represented, there are hits and misses (in my opinion, which of course, could be wrong! See #3 below.)

(2) There are differing skill levels among the professionals that can mean all the difference between eye-catching and cringe-inducing. In my opinion, artists each have a particular style, and that style works best in a particular genre. Very few have the chops to work across all genres equally well. I write in several genres, and therefore, buy covers from different artists who display skills for a specific genre.

(3) No one really knows whether a cover will sell the hell out of a book until it's out there in front of the market. You, as a graphic designer, might *think* you know for a fact that your designs will sell the book better than anyone else's. But you would be wrong. You don't know it for a fact. You can only _believe_ it until the proof is there. The good news is that as writers, we can change covers that don't work and try other ones until we get it right. The bad news is, if we've spent a lot of money for it, it makes it a very hard decision, and sometimes we delay making it too long as a result.

For any relationship between writer and cover designer to work, there has to be a recognition of two things: (1) Artists who have the training and experience to make excellent, eye-catching covers, should feel free to express opinions with clients about what works for the genre, color schemes, images, etc, and should also be allowed to say what they think honestly about the writer's input without fear of being fired, assuming they do it in a professional manner; and writers should listen carefully to the opinions expressed and consider carefully before disregarding this advice, while at the same time feeling perfectly free to decline taking said advice. (2) Artists must remember at the end of the day that they are working on a work-for-hire project and they must turn over a project that the writers want, not what they want. If an artist is worried she will be "blamed" for the bad choices, all it takes is a documentation of the conversations that can be referenced later. If the artist is worried about people looking at a cover that she did and blaming her for the poor choices, she can put up a portfolio of book as she would have liked it to be made, and make sure she links to that portfolio in all her communications with future/potential clients. An artist might even work this into any agreement that she has with an author, that she will make the cover the writer wants, and the cover _she_ wants, and she will be permitted to feature both on her site.

Personally, I would never work with an artist who told me "it's my way or the highway". One of the best cover artists out there, Claudia of phatpuppy.com, is exactly the kind of professional people love to work with. She listens to input, responds with her opinion, and then does whatever she can to create what she's being asked to create. Smart writers listen to her, but have the confidence to tell her "no" when the work is not what they want. Her success cannot be denied. A lot of artists could learn from her professionalism (present company not being referenced here at all! Both the OP and Scarlett - the two posts by cover artists I have read - have great reputations from what I've heard.)


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "However it's important to note that today's readers are significantly less patient than the readers of yesteryear. If the book doesn't grab their attention IMMEDIATELY, they will move on to the next book.


When did it change? We've been hearing the same stuff about how new and different today's consumer is for the past fifty years.


----------



## Scarlett_R (Sep 30, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> You are missing something. No cover I hated and was really disappointed in would go on one of my novels so you are presenting something that isn't a possibility. I do NOT hand over control. If you expected that, Scarlett, I plain and simple wouldn't hire you.


I'm sorry if you felt like my initial post was an attack, but it wasn't at all. I was actually just curious as to which way you might take it and what your priority is in that scenario. As I mentioned earlier the most important part of my job is to ensure the author is happy at the end of the project. It was just a question I wanted to ask 



> Do I listen to my designer? Of course. If I suggested something and the designer said, "OMG that just wouldn't work" I would probably go with their expertise although I would expect some discussion of why. I would expect some alternative ideas. Usually I give my designer pretty free rein but the final ok is MINE. If they do something and I don't like it (remember that cover just discussed for _The Shadow Gypsy_? It had an element I didn't like that I got feedback on and changed) I would no doubt get some second opinions and if I decided that *I* was right, I would EXPECT the designer to change it. I have never had a designer refuse.
> 
> ETA: And considering that I have seen some pretty terrible covers on some Big 6 novels, you'll forgive me if I am in doubt that all of them are that expert on what marketing works.
> 
> I am a bit irritated at this discussion because 1. I always have had great working relationships with my designers and feel as though I'm being put in a position that sounds hostile to designers when I'm not, 2. I think you are asking something that is entirely unreasonable, and 3. what you are asking isn't even a good thing. A LOT of novels got TERRIBLE covers because authors never did have control before. I am sure as heck not giving it up.


I'm sorry to hear you say that, from what I've been reading so far I thought the discussion was a healthy talk out about the ways authors and designers come together. Although Damon did warn of its controversy 

As to your points above, I don't disagree with a single one of them. At the end of the day if the author truly wants those changes, wants that specific cover, even after they've been advised by the designer against it, then have at it. It's what the author wants, I've done what I feel is best for the project, and if that is our half way point then that's where I'll meet them and end up with a cover they love (hopefully!). I said before that I believe that a designer/author relationship is based on collaboration, and that it's vital to the process. I encourage all of the authors I work with to share with me their ideas, and try and work them into the concepts I develop.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

I'm gonna preface my post with this:

                  

Just so you all know what mood this is being spoken in. 

(Good) designers aren't simply tools that people use to execute whatever idea pops into their head. They are specialists. If they agree to bend to one's every whim without a single protest, that tells me that either *1)* the client has bloody brilliant ideas (which is entirely possible), or *2)* the designer is desperate for work. If they're desperate for work, they're either in the process of building up their client base and portfolio, or they're not very good.

Let's say that I want to have a furniture maker custom-build a bed for me. I give him the specs- it has to be a double bed, it needs to be made of timber, and I want it to be in that awesome balinese style that I see around so often (thick timber with carved patterns and whatnot). I hire a furniture maker I feel can pull off the job.
The furniture maker might get my input on the exact style I'm going for (do you want little buddhas or elephants carved into the bed-head, or do you just want straight patterns?), but largely, I trust his experience and judgement.
What I don't do is go in and micro-manage the building process. I know nothing about what structural support needs to be built into a bed, what brackets need to be used, how many slats should be laid. I'm certainly not going to tell him what to do with these aspects. I trust that if he's a legit furniture maker, he's going to know about all those things, and take care of it.

A book cover design needs to be more than just a pretty picture. A cover can be pretty whether it has one single object on the cover or an entire scene. But a good designer will ensure that the cover is BOTH pretty AND highly marketable. If the author micro-manages exactly what the cover is going to look like, that would be like me telling the furniture maker how many slats to put into the bed, and which brackets to use (I have no idea about these things).

Can you still demand that your designer does whatever you tell them to do? Sure. Will it result in reduced sales? Unless you're an experienced book designer yourself, almost certainly. Will this increase your chances of the designer firing you as a client? Depends on how desperate the designer is.

If you want a glimpse into the life of a designer, this (somewhat crude) comic pretty much sums it up: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

Consider being treated like nothing more than a tool for years on end. Although I don't want to put words into his mouth, I suspect that Damonza may have had a lifetime's worth of clients who demand to micromanage the design process. Although this may seem like a non-issue, "you're getting PAID, right??", it's actually a huge issue.

Here's why:

1) Every time we are micro-managed into designing a cover that simply doesn't work, that is yet another cover that we cannot include in our portfolio.

And I appreciate that Elle has tried to provide solutions to this above (i.e. explain that the poor design choices are the author's fault, and create an extra cover that shows how you would have personally chosen to do). 
However, these solutions unfortunately don't work, because clients don't like being publicly criticized for their decisions (are we not seeing the results of this in this very thread?), and we can't spend our time creating a second cover (which may include hours/days/weeks of work) that we will not be paid for.

*2)* The cover isn't as successful as it could have been, and that guts us.

If we just wanted to create pretty images, we would be general artists, selling art prints or some-such. We choose to be cover designers because we love books. If a book isn't successful, not only do we feel that we've failed in some way, but it also means that the cover design will be on fewer e-readers and fewer bookshelves. The whole point of creating covers in the first place is thrown aside.

*3)* Having clients micro-manage the design process is in essence saying that they don't think we can do the job. After years of creating successful covers, helping books increase sales and even become bestsellers, this not only makes me cringe, but it makes me wonder why the client is hiring me in the first place.

*4) *Having the client force something that won't work creates unnecessary friction.

I dunno about others, but I find it immensely difficult to explain to a client why they're wrong. Especially when it involves something as personal as their book. I've got books of my own- I totally understand how personal a book becomes. But like Damonza said in his original post, authors should focus on the inside of the book. Leave the outside to the cover designers- that's _their_ specialty.

Another example. I have a life-long dream to fly to the moon. I've worked hard my whole life to achieve that dream. Finally, through sheer hard work and a little luck, I've been chosen to join a team of astronauts to fly to the moon. Even if I were the one footing the bill, does this give me the license to tell the rocket-builders how to build the rocket? Well sure, maybe. But I probably won't make it to the moon.

Authors want to get their story read. Let us help you make that happen.



> In my opinion, artists each have a particular style, and that style works best in a particular genre. Very few have the chops to work across all genres equally well. I write in several genres, and therefore, buy covers from different artists who display skills for a specific genre


I know Elle didn't intend any hurt with the quote above, but let me pose this question:
You feel that designers, as a whole, don't have the chops to work in multiple genres, however authors do?
Rhetorical question.
Certainly, designers may specialise in non-fiction, fiction, children's literature, or adults-only. But if they are restricted to one genre, they're probably not very experienced. They're just creating pretty pictures, but don't know the ins and outs of successful book cover design.



> No one really knows whether a cover will sell the hell out of a book until it's out there in front of the market.


Absolutely true- designers do sometimes fail to hit the nail on the head. However, the more experienced the designer, the greater chance of the book cover being successful. And experience isn't necessarily dictated by price tag. Createspace's cover design service is atrocious, yet their work is priced higher than Damonza's. I would go with Damonza before Createspace any day.



> Myth: All publishers make good decisions about cover art.
> Fact: Many trad-to-indie hybrid authors are telling us that they took the rights back for books that didn't sell worth a hoot, changed the cover, and BOOM, sold the hell out of that book. Many complain about the terrible cover art that they were stuck with, and no matter how much they complained, they couldn't get it changed. It killed their book. So, to assume a professional graphic artist who specializes in making book covers and works for a trad publisher always knows what will sell a book is hogwash.


As someone who's worked with a number of publishers, I'll let you in on some behind-the-scenes info:

Publishers don't always have their own experienced "in-house" designers. They often outsource. Every time they outsource, they increase the chances of hiring a designer who doesn't really have a clue. This prospect increases when the publisher gets stingy and looks for cheap designers (which happens often, in an attempt to increase their bottom line).
Publishers often micro-manage their designers because they want to feel in charge, to the detriment of the book's success.



> Myth: All indie writers are writers only and do not have the artistic eye to know what a good cover is and what cover will sell a book, so they should leave the designing to a professional cover designer.
> Fact: Many indie writers are amazing graphic artists even without having taken any design courses. I've seen several covers done by indie writers that are by and far better than their trad-pubbed peers' books. And those peers had their stuff done by "professionals".


Regarding "professionals", see my above comments.

And absolutely, there are some writers out there who have _brilliant _artistic sense. I've seen writers who can illustrate and paint things a hundred times better than I ever could. Quite often, these writers are able to give input on a project that takes things to the next level. However, unless they live and breathe book cover design (as does a full-time, experienced cover designer), it's unlikely that they will have the knowledge required to create a design that will _best _sell their book.
This is in part illustrated by the sheer volume of book covers that land on the LousyBookCovers website that have fantastic illustrations, but are still abysmal as book covers.

Please note that we are NOT suggesting that authors have NO SAY in their book cover design.  However, if you press on a design that simply won't work, and you are utterly non-negotiable, you risk either *1)* getting a book cover that won't do the best job of selling your book, or *2)* being fired by your designer.

I hope that clears up some of the misconceptions (though, knowing me, I've probably created a whole bunch more)!

Ce la vie.


----------



## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

NicholasAndrews said:


> False. The first editions I bought of the first three Martin books all had characters and/or scenes depicted on the covers. It wasn't until Martin's name got big enough to sell books on its own strength that they switched to simpler covers. And once the HBO series came along, you could have put anything on the cover and they would have sold. But when the publishers were building Martin's name, they went with more story-centric covers.


This. You can't use those three series as examples to support your argument, as they became so big that whatever was on the covers became irrelevant. They've now set some sort of standard for covers in their genre, but anything else would have become the standard if it was the cover of a best-selling book. The argument should be not to deviate from your genre, as it currently stands (because 5 years from now "what works" will likely change, anyway).

I do agree, to a certain extent, that there shouldn't be too much going on. However, as JRTomlin stated, that doesn't work for all genres. The Discworld Novels and Harry Potter are just a couple of examples that contradict what you're saying.


----------



## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> Exactly what design principles have changed in the last 15 years. I must admit my curiosity.


This, plus how the dated feel to those old GoT covers made me remember this:

Intro to HBO's Game of Thrones if it was filmed in 1995: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fPgIIB67bw


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

BelindaPepper said:


> I'm gonna preface my post with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really? Then what are we supposed to take "Leave the outside to us" to mean? That sounds very, very much like you think that the designer should have the final approval.



> I'm sorry to hear you say that, from what I've been reading so far I thought the discussion was a healthy talk out about the ways authors and designers come together. Although Damon did warn of its controversy


I think most of it has been healthy. Apparently it is a good idea to discuss these things before working together, and I didn't know that because I had no idea that there were designers out there who thought that their opinion superseded that of the author. This thread has been enlightening.

I assume there are authors who aren't as annoyed as I am by the "Leave the outside to the designer" comments, but yikes, they absolutely hit me the wrong way, but I honestly don't think that is your opinion. It does need to be a collaboration and let's face it. Not everyone can work together although I've been very lucky in having a great relationship with my cover designers.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> For some authors, you could put a dog turd on a cover and it wouldn't matter.


Just remember, JR... you drove me to this!


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Just remember, JR... you drove me to this!


Yeah, yeah. My fault. I should have known you'd do that. 

ETA: But it's still true. People would have to know why SK had a dog turd on the cover and would buy it in droves.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Yeah, yeah. My fault. I should have known you'd do that.
> 
> ETA: But it's still true. People would have to know why SK had a dog turd on the cover and would buy it in droves.


 Hey, it's called "procrastination" where I come from.

Yeah, I wanna/don't wanna do my pages for the night. Like usual.

But that was just too tempting.

And you're right, even after I created the cover for a laugh, I found myself wondering... "Now what would Stephen do with this?" And felt disappointed there was no real novel by that title coming out by him...

NOTE: I probably should have nudged the "fake pooh" image up a bit to center it better between King and Fecal. But I just did this as a lightning-fast one-off.

Also, I thought about putting "From the author of UNDER THE DOME" below King's name, but then I realized that with King, they seldom feel the need to do that. He's on that extra-high plane of writer-dom where you don't need to tell anyone what else he wrote...

Plus, I hate microscopic text on eBook covers that you can't read until AFTER you've bought the book, at which point it doesn't really matter anyway.

But hey, if anyone wants to preorder FECAL by Stephen King, just send about $2K per copy to [email protected]


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

BelindaPepper said:


> I know Elle didn't intend any hurt with the quote above, but let me pose this question:
> You feel that designers, as a whole, don't have the chops to work in multiple genres, however authors do?
> Rhetorical question.
> Certainly, designers may specialise in non-fiction, fiction, children's literature, or adults-only. But if they are restricted to one genre, they're probably not very experienced. They're just creating pretty pictures, but don't know the ins and outs of successful book cover design.
> ...


You are right, my post was not meant to hurt feelings, merely to shed light. Sometimes both parties, designers and writers alike, think they absolutely KNOW how it is (what the facts are), and they just don't. They're too wrapped up in their expertise and experiences to see anything else but their own world. I'm just sharing _my_ experiences which may not be the same as yours. That shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings. If you see yourself reflected in my comments and feel defensive about it, maybe consider why. I think it's just that we have different outlooks, neither of which is more relevant. But I think it behooves you as a designer to know where your clients are coming from and to give them the respect that they are due, and vice versa.

I stand by my comment that most designers excel at doing covers for certain genres. Same goes for authors and their writing in different genres. You get the rare breed who can "do it all" but it's not common. Same for designers. Most artists (cover artists or other media) have a certain style that's identifiable. That translates to great covers in, for example, fantasy; but what's great for fantasy is not good for a detective mystery. So that artist who does totally fab fantasy covers might just do serviceable covers in this other genre. Time to pick a different cover artist. You might think you can do it all, make a kick-butt cover for any book in any genre. Maybe you can, I don't know your work. But if you can, I would say you are a member of a very small club.

Writers can't stand on a podium and say "I always know 100% what's best for readers." They need reader input for that.
Cover artists can't stand on a podium and say, "I always know 100% what's best for readers." They need reader input for that.

Bottom line, writers have the right to get a cover they want if they pay someone for the work. Period. Should they listen to wise counsel? Of course. Should they disregard their own feelings? No, of course not. Telling a writer that her input is negligible and worthless compared to that of the artist is a great way to go out of business. Nobody likes working with a diva (as I'm sure you know!)

Regarding publishers' artists:
They hire cover artists. Sometimes they hire good ones, sometimes they hire bad ones. Just like us writers do. My point was made in response to a claim that indie writers make poor choices compared to trad pub marketing departments. That's just simply not true.


----------



## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> I stand by my comment that most designers excel at doing covers for certain genres. Same goes for authors and their writing in different genres. You get the rare breed who can "do it all" but it's not common. Same for designers. Most artists (cover artists or other media) have a certain style that's identifiable. That translates to great covers in, for example, fantasy; but what's great for fantasy is not good for a detective mystery. So that artist who does totally fab fantasy covers might just do serviceable covers in this other genre. Time to pick a different cover artist. You might think you can do it all, make a kick-butt cover for any book in any genre. Maybe you can, I don't know your work. But if you can, I would say you are a member of a very small club.


I have to agree with this. I've seen a lot of generalizations in this thread about design, many of which aren't true for the genres I write in. I'm not one who comes into a book with a specific design, so I would probably be pretty flexible about what a designer could make, but I've spent most of my life reading and writing in my genre. I'm sure that's true for other authors here, like JT and Elle. I am writing in a totally different genre for the first time on another pen name, and I spent hours researching that on Amazon for cover ideas. But in my brand genre, I know what's out there, even in the tiniest categories and keywords.

I understand that cover designers are experts, but so am I. I've kinda felt in this thread like a couple of the designers don't realize that many authors are experts in their field, and not just in writing. They are expert readers in their field. I also think that by choosing to be a cover designer, you accept this process as part of the package. It's part of being a professional in this field. It's going to happen, and sure, you can write articles about letting designers make major decisions on covers, but ultimately, it probably won't matter in how your clients react. You could go be another type of artist and not deal with it. Definitely give suggestions and ideas, but being a cover designer to publishers (and self publishers are publishers) means that they have the final say, because they are the client paying you to produce what they want.


----------



## CarlG (Sep 16, 2012)

Several have asked what if anything has changed in book cover design principles in the last 10-15 years. Simply, they have become more iconic with the advent of the ebook and with online selling. Physical point of purchase has allowed textures, typefaces, and content that don't fly on the thumbnail pixel version. It is similar to what has happened to to album covers with the switch from LP to CD format. Think Sgt Pepper by the Beatles. Would that cover sell today?

Designers do have plenty of training, talent, and the eye for design. But they don't know the particular book like the author does. How many can take a project from brief to effective book cover _for that book_ without significant author feedback, I don't know. Certainly the best scenario involves an author with some knowledge of design and a designer with knack for story. Together they need to design not just an effective cover but author _branding_ (whether or not the book is in a series or not).


----------



## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

You know what would be REALLY helpful? If one of the artists shared what a professional quality cover brief looks like. Frankly, I've always wondered what they look like. What information about a book is given by publishers to artists? How is "tone" explained, and how narrow do they define the target audience? i.e. do they say this is a MG book, or do they say this is geared for the 10+ boy market?

Is there a standard format for cover briefs? 

I doubt many artists read the whole book, but I know some do. 

I'd be very curious about this.


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

CarlG said:


> Designers do have plenty of training, talent, and the eye for design. But they don't know the particular book like the author does. How many can take a project from brief to effective book cover _for that book_ without significant author feedback, I don't know. Certainly the best scenario involves an author with some knowledge of design and a designer with knack for story. Together they need to design not just an effective cover but author _branding_ (whether or not the book is in a series or not).


I don't think anyone suggests that designers should design without significant feedback from author. No one means that. This is more of a 'trust your designer more and don't let your ego/personal taste get in the way' post. Good designers will always ask questions about the book, the mood, the characters, look at other books from author, look at other books in genre. Then during the design process feedback will be given and if author has some idea that may not work, designer will point it out and give some examples to support it. After that decision is always with the author. Sometimes personal taste gets in the way, or control freak-thing doesn't let author adjust but in my personal experience, both authors and designers are willing to work together/listen/suggest/adjust.


----------



## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Some of this back and forth reminds me of Mad Men for anyone who watches it. The agency comes up with the ad concept but the customers want to stick their oar in. On the one hand, the ad agency are the experts. On the other hand, the customers are the owners of the brand and they are the ones that live or die by the success of the ad.

Anyway, one of the key roles of Don Draper on Mad Men is to sell the idea to the customer. So maybe designers can make a special effort to sell their concepts to authors and try and explain why their idea is so much better than what the author had in mind. I guess that's what Damonza and some of the other designers are trying to do on a macro scale in this thread.


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

David J Normoyle said:


> Some of this back and forth reminds me of Mad Men for anyone who watches it. The agency comes up with the ad concept but the customers want to stick their oar in. On the one hand, the ad agency are the experts. On the other hand, the customers are the owners of the brand and they are the ones that live or die by the success of the ad.
> 
> Anyway, one of the key roles of Don Draper on Mad Men is to sell the idea to the customer. So maybe designers can make a special effort to sell their concepts to authors and try and explain why their idea is so much better than what the author had in mind. I guess that's what Damonza and some of the other designers are trying to do on a macro scale in this thread.


I would hope that was the intent. But lines like this in the OP, caused me to think otherwise:
_
"After designing hundreds of covers, in many different genres, I know what looks good, I know what works and I know what sells. Which leads me to express my plea to authors: You decide what goes on inside your book. Let me decide what goes on the cover."_

Damonza, who is a very talented artist, I'm not debating that or calling that into question, spent a great deal of time in his post essentially delivering the message that indie authors are not qualified to direct the design of their covers. In _my_ experience, that is incorrect. It also comes across as a tad condescending and arrogant. I don't think that's who Damonza is, though. I've heard only good things about him. I'm just saying that's how it came off to me, and professionals who offer services here on KB to authors should be careful about how their messages come across. It's too easy to develop an undeserved reputation based on the imperfect medium of forum posts.

I do appreciate the message I assume he was trying to deliver which is: Trust the judgment of your professional cover designer and don't dismiss his suggestions out of hand because they don't match what you believe should be the design of your cover. Be open-minded. Respect the creative process.

All the rest of what was said ... meh. Matter of opinion.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

The above comments = gold. 

In fact, I'm gonna repost Carl's comment for emphasis:



> I don't think anyone suggests that designers should design without significant feedback from author. No one means that. This is more of a 'trust your designer more and don't let your ego/personal taste get in the way' post. Good designers will always ask questions about the book, the mood, the characters, look at other books from author, look at other books in genre. Then during the design process feedback will be given and if author has some idea that may not work, designer will point it out and give some examples to support it. After that decision is always with the author. Sometimes personal taste gets in the way, or control freak-thing doesn't let author adjust but in my personal experience, both authors and designers are willing to work together/listen/suggest/adjust.


Steve, the golden standard is for the designer to read the book. If that's not possible, it's best to give _as much detail as possible_ about the story, including key characters, themes, events and locales, so the designer has ample info to work with. The designer should have a thoroughly deep understanding of the book and its purpose. By all means state the book's genre/s too, as target audience is often determined by this.
I hope that helps!


----------



## RHill (Jun 9, 2012)

Great! Give me what I need. I just hope what I need doesn't look like everybody else's cover. I agree that some elements must be genre specific, but I see too many cover clones these days. It makes me think the books all read the same as well. (Not talking about your work--just covers in general).

Truly looking forward to a Damon Za cover...


----------



## Mark Philipson (Mar 9, 2013)

Frank Frazetta said he never read any of the books he made the cover art for. He also said nobody else read them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Frazetta


----------



## lmckinley (Oct 3, 2012)

On designing covers for other people...

I spent a few months working in the picture framing department at Hobby Lobby and part of the job was helping customers choose a frame and mat to go with their picture. I really didn't get much training with this and had to pretend to look wise and knowing when people asked me if their frame looked good. Typically, if they had chosen something ugly, we would show them something else and say, 'how about this?" And much of the time the customer would say, 'Oh that's much better!" because they just didn't have the experience to know what could really be done, ya' know? I think most customers are willing to be flexible when they ask for help. 

But, sometimes customers would pick some horrible color combination or garish frame and we would put it together even though all of us working there hated it. But when the customer came to pick it up, they would just gush about how much they loved it, because that was what they wanted. 

I think that for those of you who design for others, it's GREAT to let people know that their chosen cover may not sell as well, but ultimately, you are not responsible for how well the book sells, anymore than you are responsible for the quality of the editing, etc. What you get to do is give the customer what they want.

I have been realizing lately that although I would not go with a cover I hate, I would rather have a cover that communicates what it needs to (and that I'm okay with) than a cover I really love and want to hang on my wall. Maybe a good designer's job includes talking an author through their priorities when choosing a cover. I think with every cover I cobble together myself, (because I am in the SP as a cheap hobby camp right now), I have to make the same decision. Great thoughts on this thread. Thank you to everyone for sharing.


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

BelindaPepper said:


> The above comments = gold.
> 
> In fact, I'm gonna repost Carl's comment for emphasis:
> 
> ...


Hey that was my post you quoted!  

And as far as reading books when designing covers - it's generally not read if your designer will deliver initial design concepts in less than 10 days. For most SP books, not many designers can manage to read the book fast and deliver designs at the same time. Designers for Publishing houses have ton of time do to a cover, like months, because the launch is planned 6 months in advance etc so they can have 2 months to read the book and come up with concepts. That's why they can tak their time, enjoy the book and then work. But for SP books, results are usually expected much faster. So most helpful thing for designer is to have a nice outline of the book (5-20 pages), description of characters, examples of author's favorite/least favorite covers in the book genre, etc.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

Mark Philipson said:


> Frank Frazetta said he never read any of the books he made the cover art for. He also said nobody else read them.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Frazetta


So, we know that one statement wasn't true. We can take on faith, or on evidence, that the other one was true?


----------



## Mark Philipson (Mar 9, 2013)

"I didn't read any of it... I drew him my way. It was really rugged. And it caught on. I didn't care about what people thought. People who bought the books never complained about it. They probably didn't read them." Misquote on my part.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

And, Frazetta didn't understand the psychology of book readers. Of course they weren't going to complain. They were too busy readiing another book. And if they complained, the complaint would have ended up at the publisher--and does anything think that the publisher would have bothered to forward it?

Besides, my reaction when seeing a cover that bore no resemblance to the contents was always to laugh, not complain.


----------



## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

I write for a small and focused niche market: mid-grade/tween books for horse crazy girls. In Amazon's Children's Horse Books category, mine are holding their own (and beating) books from HarperCollins, Simon & Schuster, and Bloomsbury. Today, my 6th book is #1 on the list, having unseated War Horse.

The covers of most trade pub'd horse books are laughable because the designer clearly knew zero about horses. There are inappropriately dressed girls standing next to horses that are half asleep (drugged, probably) because from the models' expressions, it's clear they've never been this close to a horse before.

Horse photography, like any sport photography, is a very specialized art. All you need do is look at the thousands of bad horse photos on the stock sites. I would be reluctant to hire a cover designer unless they too were a horse person, which might not be an easy-to-find combination.

So I do my own.

I'm also a book designer/typesetter which helps when it comes to the cover's typography. I'm also a horsewoman so I know exactly what a horse should look like doing a certain movement and am able to pick a cover photo that best targets my market.

Having said all this, I agree with the OP. Showing a scene isn't the way to go; capturing the book's theme is, which is what I hope I'm doing. Others may disagree.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Maggie Dana said:


> I write for a small and focused niche market: mid-grade/tween books for horse crazy girls. In Amazon's Children's Horse Books category, mine are holding their own (and beating) books from HarperCollins, Simon & Schuster, and Bloomsbury. Today, my 6th book is #1 on the list, having unseated War Horse.
> 
> The covers of most trade pub'd horse books are laughable because the designer clearly knew zero about horses. There are inappropriately dressed girls standing next to horses that are half asleep (drugged, probably) because from the models' expressions, it's clear they've never been this close to a horse before.
> 
> ...


Where you and he are wrong is in assuming that for all books in all genres there is only one way to go that can work.


----------



## Keri Knutson (Apr 10, 2011)

> You know what would be REALLY helpful? If one of the artists shared what a professional quality cover brief looks like. Frankly, I've always wondered what they look like. What information about a book is given by publishers to artists? How is "tone" explained, and how narrow do they define the target audience? i.e. do they say this is a MG book, or do they say this is geared for the 10+ boy market?
> 
> Is there a standard format for cover briefs?
> 
> ...


Everybody probably is slightly different in what they feel is a good cover brief. When you're delivering several covers a week with a lead time of sometimes only days, it's impossible to read entire books. What I ask for is is their specific target audience and genre/niche (i.e. if it's middle grade, what age range, YA paranormal with more/less romance, etcetera). I ask for their blurb, because whatever hook they're using should be in the blurb. I ask them to tell me what's important to them about the book: thematically and emotionally, as well as plot/material/protagonist. I ask for any recurring themes/motifs/signifiers they think about when thinking about the book. Maybe most importantly, I ask them to let me know what covers in their genre they find most appealing: not to copy a cover, but to get a better handle on what their expectations are and how conversant they are in their own genre -- because some authors are very tuned in, but many newbies are not at all. This is going to help me both meet their expectations and steer them away from something that I know isn't going to work for them. Lastly, I ask them what they DON'T want to see in a cover, because this saves both of us time. After that I do independent research of what's available and what selling in their genre/niche right now. What's been overdone? What's been done badly? Where's the sweet spot for getting a cover that stands out but also fits in to reader expectations. THEN I start on the cover options.

And, yes, I've "fired" a client when it became clear that I couldn't, in good conscience, do what they wanted. It was amicable and I suggested finding a desinger that was more amenable to the author's desire for total control. (For instance, I don't let clients do their own font work. I'll make any changes they want within reason, but the font work is part of the design. If they want something without text, I may work with them, but at that point I take my name off as designer. I've had my own horror stories of wrecked covers that went out with my name on it as a designer and I won't do that again.)

I do believe that the designer and author need to work together (I've been a writer a lot longer than I've been a designer, and consider myself a writer first), but good designer have a level of expertise that their clients don't have -- or else the clients could just make their own covers.

I think two things have gotten lost in this discussion: 1) Damonza was not saying "designers should be able to do whatever they want and the authors can just lump it," I believe he was expressing what every designer has come across: in the desire to make clients some happy in the moment, we're sometimes tempted to go against what we believe and what we know and produce something that is not as effective as it could and should be. Which in the end, does no one a lick of good. Sometimes it's better to stand up and be honest, and sometimes it's better to part ways when something just won't work.

Which brings up the second thing that got lost: sometimes to people are just not a good fit. Both people may be perfectly swell, talented, and professional -- but just don't work well together. Not every designer is right for every writer, and conversly so. It's about finding the happiest medium that can be achieved.

And as Scarlett said, the trick is expressing misgivings about a client's requests or finding a way to steer them towards something that will serve them better. What usually works for me is both mocking up exactly what the client wants and also providing additional designs that I think are going to serve the client better. When I present that, I'll give a list of well-researched reasons why I think they should change what they're asking for. 9 times out of 10, the client usually abandons what was most troublesome about their initial vision. (And this is in the rare instances when there really is a disconnect between what the author wants and what the author needs -- I'm not saying every author is some naif who has ridiculous expectations or unreasonable demands. Speaking in a generality is just that.)

Yes, it's a partnership, but it's also a professional business relationship. If you hire a cover designer, let them be a cover designer. Yes, tell them what you want -- you may well know exactly what you want and it might work fantastically, but remember that you hired them for a reason. Last thing I'm going to say is the big killer is miscommunication -- and that goes both directions.


----------



## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

Wow, this thread has taught me one very important thing. Even though I paid for a designer, I can be fired by the designer?

I think I will stick with Clarissa then. She said when she was doing my custom work that if we couldn't come to an agreement, I could _have my money back_. Definitely new words I will be looking for from now on.


----------



## Keri Knutson (Apr 10, 2011)

> Wow, this thread has taught me one very important thing. Even though I paid for a designer, I can be fired by the designer?
> 
> I think I will stick with Clarissa then. She said when she was doing my custom work that if we couldn't come to an agreement, I could have my money back. Definitely new words I will be looking for from now on.


If you're referring to my comment, it was tongue-in-cheek in reference to another comment upthread -- hence the quotation marks. As I said in the next sentence, it happened once, and it was amicable. I knew it wasn't going to work out (for either of us), so I referred the client to a list of other designers to contact. I've never once kept money for something that wasn't delivered upon, and in fact have done a lot of pro-bono work for people who have had difficulities when left in the lurch by someone else.

Sorry for the confusion. 

ETA: And Clarissa is a great designer -- she's done some really beautiful work.


----------



## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

Keri Knutson said:


> If you're referring to my comment, it was tongue-in-cheek in reference to another comment upthread -- hence the quotation marks. As I said in the next sentence, it happened once, and it was amicable. I knew it wasn't going to work out (for either of us), so I referred the client to a list of other designers to contact. I've never once kept money for something that wasn't delivered upon, and in fact have done a lot of pro-bono work for people who have had difficulities when left in the lurch by someone else.
> 
> Sorry for the confusion.


No confusion. I just never thought of it that way, but I wonder how often it does happen? I don't read many policies about a guarantee of money back, or I never read them before.

I need to study harder! For now, I will stick with Clarissa. It's also good to know if I work with you in the future, you have the same kind of thing.


----------



## Barbara Morgenroth (May 14, 2010)

Maggie Dana said:


> Showing a scene isn't the way to go; capturing the book's theme is, which is what I hope I'm doing. Others may disagree.


Like Maggie I write for a niche market, primarily, horses. I am professional photographer and did the photography for the first two books I published by Atheneum. I did all the photography for a Complete Idiot's Guide. I'm capable of doing this so I do all my own covers.

I did contact a cover designer for one of my women's novels. This person refused to read the book, only read the blurb and based on that presented me a vulgar and insulting image of a woman sticking her finger in her mouth ($3 at Bigstockphotos, it was pretty easy to find). This person intuited incorrectly the book was erotica. No matter how hard I tried to explain this novel and its themes, this person had their ears turned off so I gave up. I found a photo by a French woman that expressed the dreamy sensuality of the book perfectly and designed the cover myself.

I didn't luck out in that experience with the cover designer. Many people do.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Melanie Ray said:


> No confusion. I just never thought of it that way, but I wonder how often it does happen? I don't read many policies about a guarantee of money back, or I never read them before.
> 
> I need to study harder! For now, I will stick with Clarissa. It's also good to know if I work with you in the future, you have the same kind of thing.


You never thought of it that way because you don't "fire" a client. The author is the client, after all. A subcontractor can quit but can't "fire" someone who is paying for their services. This has the relationship backwards which has been one of my problems with a number of posts in this thread. There seem to be a few designers (exceptions I am aware) who think the author works for them instead of the other way around.


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2013)

I think this comic pretty much sums it up:


----------



## callan (Feb 29, 2012)

Sound like some author seriously annoyed you recently ...

Hope it wasn't me


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Exactly what design principles have changed in the last 15 years. I must admit my curiosity.


The same design "principles" that change between genres.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Frankly, some of the best covers I've done for clients were the ones where the author had a strong idea about what they wanted, but gave me enough leeway to make it come to life using my own interpretation. And of course if it didn't accomplish what the author wanted on the first go, we worked on it until it did.


----------



## Maryann Christine (May 18, 2011)

As a reader and a former ad copywriter, I agree with the OP. So far I've kept these thoughts to myself, because I'm a newbie fiction writer and don't have any ebooks published yet. But since someone else already brought up the topic, I'd just like to add my thoughts. Take what you like and leave the rest. 

One, as a reader, when I browse boards like this one or Amazon, I am not necessarily ready to buy a book at that moment or even to click on the titles. But if I see an interesting title, I will mentally file it away in my head to look at later. If I'm multitasking at work or while eating lunch, I may not have time to even click on a description. Various images and words are flitting in and out of my brain, and each message just gets a second to register. 

So, if I can't even read the title and author name in a thumbnail, I have no words to mentally file in my brain. I have an iPad with the crispest resolution you can get (I'm very low-tech here and have no idea what the official name is, but it cost extra). Even with the sharp resolution on my screen, the indy titles I see are sometimes blurry or small and I can't read some of the words. And while I'm not young, I'm not old or visually impaired.

Not being able to read the title and author name causes two problems for me. One, it doesn't stick in my brain and give me something to look at later, when I have more time. Also, if someone else mentions the title, in real life or on the Internet, I won't recognize the title from the first time I saw the thumbnail, because I didn't catch the words.

Two, a small or blurry title gives me the (erroneous) impression that the author is ashamed of his or her work and doesn't want people to know the title or name. Intellectually, I know the author is probably quite proud of their book and put a lot of work into it. But on an emotional level, an attractive picture with an illegible title is like a good-looking person at a party who mumbles their name. When I see them across the room, I'm thinking, hmm, this person might be interesting. But when I get closer, they say, "Hi, I'm Mmmpplrgh Glubbzzz." So I'm like, huh? Giving up on that, I ask what they do, and they say "I flerghhhh...ruhblb..."

Or, to use another metaphor, the hard-to-read titles are like the "low talkers" of Seinfeld. 

I'm an avid reader, as are a few of my friends, so we are word people first, picture people second. If people don't make the words of the title legible on a thumbnail, we might get the impression that the words inside the book may be hard to read too and the author doesn't value clarity. It may not be fair or logical; I'm just talking about quick, emotional responses and decisions we make in our brain in nanoseconds of time. 

This brings me to the second point, which I picked up when I worked as an ad copywriter: If a buying decision involves a lot of money or time, the purpose of a particular communication may not be to sell the entire thing you are marketing in one instant, but rather, it's to help the consumer in the next step of the buying chain. This is something it took me a long time to get when I first began copywriting, but more experienced people in the agency were kind enough to help me. At first, I would always tell the art department to use three different pictures, then I'd write wordy descriptions (hmmm, wordy...not unlike my post here--I see a theme, lol). It ended up looking like a cluttered message and had the message of "low-budget."

I don't want to mention the industry in which most of our clients are involved, because it was somewhat of a niche, and I don't want anyone at work to guess who I am! So I'll just say that the puropose of the ads were not to get the people to buy the service that second. It was a very expensive service, and the people buying it could get burned if they didn't get info on it first. So, the purpose of the ad was to get people to make a sales visit to the ultimate thing we were selling, or to visit the web site. 

In a somewhat similar way, I think the purpose of a thumnail is to get people to visit the description. And there they will be able to read more details about the plot. But if they can't even read the title and author name in the blurb, they may already be thinking it's not worth that extra click. 

However, this really isn't an apples to apples comparision, because the thing we were selling was expensive, and not an impulse buy. Ebooks, on the other hand, are only a few bucks and can be bought on impulse. That makes things easier, but I think some of the basic principles still apply. Unless I already have a strong recommendation from a friend for a boook, or it's from an author I already love, I go through this process...

Does the title sound somewhat interesting? Is it grammatical? Is the image clear and not blurry or murky? Ok, then I will either a.) mentally file that away in my brain for later, or b.) click on the thumbnail to get to the description. Then, that brings up a whole new decision tree.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't confuse things more. I'm just giving another perspective. These thoughts have been swirling around in my brain, and I am at home waiting for something, so I thought I'd take the time to write this all out. Hope it helps someone! No offense is intended, just sharing impressions.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

This isn't hard. Deal with a designer just like any other contractor. Define the job and authority. If the contractor doesn't like it, then don't take the job. If the client doesn't like it, then hire a different contractor. It happens every day with all kinds of things.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JRTomlin said:


> You never thought of it that way because you don't "fire" a client. The author is the client, after all. A subcontractor can quit but can't "fire" someone who is paying for their services. This has the relationship backwards which has been one of my problems with a number of posts in this thread. There seem to be a few designers (exceptions I am aware) who think the author works for them instead of the other way around.


And yet, I've heard it expressed that way in other fields when the contractor is the one to initiate a separation between client and contractor. Obviously, the client would have to agree else a lawsuit could ensue, but I didn't even blink when I read it here as I've heard it before.

Betsy


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Melanie Ray said:


> Wow, this thread has taught me one very important thing. Even though I paid for a designer, I can be fired by the designer?
> 
> I think I will stick with Clarissa then. She said when she was doing my custom work that if we couldn't come to an agreement, I could _have my money back_. Definitely new words I will be looking for from now on.


That doesn't happen often.. client has to piss you off seriously and be really really tough to work with, be disrespectful etc. Very rare. Also, money is always given back, unless a huge chunk of work would be done and author wants to use the part of cover that was finished. Then it would make sense to compensate for work that will be used on the cover. So it's not a dig at authors, but on rare occasions, designers do have the need to ''fire'' client..

And word 'fire' isn't meant as if author works for designer, i_t means designers have choice to work with people they want_. It's common expression too, in many industries.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm kind of late to the party on this thread and don't have time to read through it all at the moment, but how does one know if they have a good cover? I mean, sometimes it's obvious, like I knew the very first covers I had for No Good Deed sucked, but at the time, there weren't many cover artists around. Then a friend and fellow indie author did the one I currently have for that book, and did the font for March Into Hell. We collaborated on Deeds of Mercy, and I did Mark Taylor: Genesis, trying to keep it cohesive with title choices and uniform fonts for the series. At the time she did No Good Deed, thrillers with cityscapes were popular. That was a few years ago and I'm wondering if that has fallen out of favor? 

I guess I'm just wondering if my covers are up to par?


----------



## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

MaryMcDonald said:


> I'm kind of late to the party on this thread and don't have time to read through it all at the moment, but how does one know if they have a good cover? I mean, sometimes it's obvious, like I knew the very first covers I had for No Good Deed sucked, but at the time, there weren't many cover artists around. Then a friend and fellow indie author did the one I currently have for that book, and did the font for March Into Hell. We collaborated on Deeds of Mercy, and I did Mark Taylor: Genesis, trying to keep it cohesive with title choices and uniform fonts for the series. At the time she did No Good Deed, thrillers with cityscapes were popular. That was a few years ago and I'm wondering if that has fallen out of favor?
> 
> I guess I'm just wondering if my covers are up to par?


That is the marketing side of things. As the SP author, you need to do that market research. People suggest looking at the top sellers in your genre to get an idea if your book fits in there, and I agree with that, but even more than that I'd find the publishers who consistently produce the top sellers, and look at their "coming soon" pages on their website. Do that, and you're benefiting from the thousands they spent on marketing.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

If a cover designer claims his work can sell a book, then I'd expect to see a portfolio of covers and total sales of the books. If that can't be provided, I'd dismiss the claim.


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> If a cover designer claims his work can sell a book, then I'd expect to see a portfolio of covers and total sales of the books. If that can't be provided, I'd dismiss the claim.


That would be violating authors right to keep the sales numbers private. You can't just post them. That comes only if author allows and shares the data with you.


----------



## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> I would hope that was the intent. But lines like this in the OP, caused me to think otherwise:
> _
> "After designing hundreds of covers, in many different genres, I know what looks good, I know what works and I know what sells. Which leads me to express my plea to authors: You decide what goes on inside your book. Let me decide what goes on the cover."_
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Creating a design is half the battle. Getting the client to approve the design is the other half. That's the commerce in commercial art. I've worked in ad agencies, and I've been a graphic designer before I learned to program websites. Sales people convince the client to trust the designers. If the designer pulls a diva act you lose clients. Clients know their business. Clients know their customers. Clients know their competition. If you want to sell them a design, you need to earn their trust.

_"After designing hundreds of covers, in many different genres, I know what looks good, I know what works and I know what sells. Which leads me to express my plea to authors: You decide what goes on inside your book. Let me decide what goes on the cover."_

Are you the art director for the project? Are you making all thematic decisions for the project? Have you even read the book? The amount of assumptions in this one line made me stop reading the rest of the post. Telling people to shut up and take what they get is unprofessional. Which is a shame, because a lot of your covers look good. There's some talent beneath the ego. You just need to earn the trust of your clients instead of insulting them.

Managing creative types is a hard business. I work with professionals who listen, and I contract about 6 freelancers a year. I don't have time to hold the hand of a diva. There's enough people screaming that their art should be respected. I hire you to do a job. You are one piece in a bigger puzzle. If you can't convince me that your 'art' is better than my idea, you need to either get better at sales or learn to do what you are told.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

RBC said:


> Hey that was my post you quoted!
> 
> And as far as reading books when designing covers - it's generally not read if your designer will deliver initial design concepts in less than 10 days. For most SP books, not many designers can manage to read the book fast and deliver designs at the same time. Designers for Publishing houses have ton of time do to a cover, like months, because the launch is planned 6 months in advance etc so they can have 2 months to read the book and come up with concepts. That's why they can tak their time, enjoy the book and then work. But for SP books, results are usually expected much faster. So most helpful thing for designer is to have a nice outline of the book (5-20 pages), description of characters, examples of author's favorite/least favorite covers in the book genre, etc.


WOOPS, my bad! Perks of trying to decipher the Topic Summary.  

And I agree. There's only been a handful of times where I've actually read the book before completing its cover, and that was because the author had things planned well out in advance. While they were going through beta readings and edits, I was working on the cover. Obviously, the draft I read wasn't what eventually got published, but it gave me a thorough understanding of the book.

Of course, it helps when the book is actually something I'd read. I've had authors ask me to read their book first, but my eyes would honestly glaze over at the prospect (not because the books were bad, but they just weren't what I enjoy reading). 



Melanie Ray said:


> Wow, this thread has taught me one very important thing. Even though I paid for a designer, I can be fired by the designer?
> 
> I think I will stick with Clarissa then. She said when she was doing my custom work that if we couldn't come to an agreement, I could _have my money back_. Definitely new words I will be looking for from now on.





Betsy the Quilter said:


> And yet, I've heard it expressed that way in other fields when the contractor is the one to initiate a separation between client and contractor. Obviously, the client would have to agree else a lawsuit could ensue, but I didn't even blink when I read it here as I've heard it before.
> 
> Betsy


I used that term because it's widely used, not because I was trying to sound like an ogre. 



RBC said:


> That doesn't happen often.. client has to p*ss you off seriously and be really really tough to work with, be disrespectful etc. Very rare. Also, money is always given back, unless a huge chunk of work would be done and author wants to use the part of cover that was finished. Then it would make sense to compensate for work that will be used on the cover. So it's not a dig at authors, but on rare occasions, designers do have the need to ''fire'' client..
> 
> And word 'fire' isn't meant as if author works for designer, i_t means designers have choice to work with people they want_. It's common expression too, in many industries.


Melissa, check the above quote by RBC. I've been a cover designer for years, and each year I will create hundreds of covers. Out of all of those jobs, I've only ever had to "fire" a client *once*. And the term "fire" is not to be confused with some heated discussion. It was amicable, I recommended other designers who might be able to help them realise their vision, and the client got ALL their money back (despite the fact I'd put 8+ hours into the job already).

Like RBC stated, designers do not believe that the author works for the designer. However, if we're privileged enough to have plenty of experience and plenty of jobs to choose from, we will ultimately choose to do the jobs where we can do work we can be proud of (after all, we can't do them ALL). I suspect this is where Damonza is at.



RBC said:


> That would be violating authors right to keep the sales numbers private. You can't just post them. That comes only if author allows and shares the data with you.


Correct. Only a fraction of authors actually share their sales statistics with me, and so far, NONE of them have allowed me to make these statistics public (sometimes I can share the stats, but I'm not allowed to draw connection to which books the stats belong to).

But I absolutely understand the need for proof, and I encourage people to do the following:
Look at the books that are ranking highly and achieving truckloads of sales. Then look at the books that are nowhere to be seen, literally buried under the hordes of new books published every day. Then look at the books where the author actively struggles on a daily basis to market his/her work, but with little effect. The difference between the successful books and these others is almost always the cover design.

_That isn't to say that the cover makes the book._ But without a great cover, readers will never discover whether the book is good or not in the first place.



> Telling people to shut up and take what they get is unprofessional. Which is a shame, because a lot of your covers look good. There's some talent beneath the ego. You just need to earn the trust of your clients instead of insulting them.
> 
> There's enough people screaming that their art should be respected. I hire you to do a job. You are one piece in a bigger puzzle. If you can't convince me that your 'art' is better than my idea, you need to either get better at sales or learn to do what you are told.


I don't want to put words into Damonza's mouth, and I totally understand where you're coming from, but I think you're misunderstanding his motivations here.

Firstly, I don't think he was trying to be insulting at all.

Secondly, he's not saying, "RESPECT MY ART!" He's saying, if authors trust him to do his job, they will reap the benefits. Let him do what he's good at.

Thirdly, he understands that he is only one piece of a bigger puzzle. But it's precisely when authors/publishers/contractors demand to have their way, come hell or high water, that they inevitably end up with a design that doesn't do its job. And that's why he's making this blanket appeal to people; trust that designers are specialists at what they do. This doesn't mean that you have no input, simply that you need to go into the relationship open-minded, and not try to micromanage a job that doesn't need it.

If authors are in any way offended or up-in-arms about the things written in this thread, it's because of a misunderstanding of intention, not because designers somehow think they're the alpha and omega.


----------



## RHill (Jun 9, 2012)

callan said:


> Sound like some author seriously annoyed you recently ...
> 
> Hope it wasn't me


Mighta been me.


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> You know what would be REALLY helpful? If one of the artists shared what a professional quality cover brief looks like. Frankly, I've always wondered what they look like. What information about a book is given by publishers to artists?


This is my standard form for romance covers. Most of the publishers I've worked with use forms very similar.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RBC said:


> That would be violating authors right to keep the sales numbers private. You can't just post them. That comes only if author allows and shares the data with you.


I don't care. I presume he has some quantitative evidence. Otherwise he has no claim. If someone makes a claim, I dismiss it without evidence. It's up to the guy making the claim to figure out how to back it up. And if he doesn't have the data, how does he know he can increase sales?


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I don't care. I presume he has some quantitative evidence. Otherwise he has no claim. If someone makes a claim, I dismiss it without evidence. It's up to the guy making the claim to figure out how to back it up. And if he doesn't have the data, how does he know he can increase sales?


Well, author can write a testimonial in which he mentions that the cover improved the sales by certain amount or percentage. That would be best option, doesn't mention specific numbers but gives at least a ballpark of how much cover meant (esp. if it was remade). Like CJ Lyons said that her sales improved 50% after she went from DIY to hiring someone.

There are author surveys done that show improvements of sales on average after buying a cover design service.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RBC said:


> Well, author can write a testimonial in which he mentions that the cover improved the sales by certain amount or percentage. That would be best option, doesn't mention specific numbers but gives at least a ballpark of how much cover meant (esp. if it was remade). Like CJ Lyons said that her sales improved 50% after she went from DIY to hiring someone.
> There are author surveys done that show improvements of sales on average after buying a cover design service.


Lacking real and substantial evidence for a specific designer, there is no reason to accept his claims. General surveys tell us nothing about a specific designer who claims he is able to increase sales.

In many industries this is called qualifying the bidder. Bidders for a contract have to demonstrate a capability to do what they claim they can do.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Steve W. said:


> That is the marketing side of things. As the SP author, you need to do that market research. People suggest looking at the top sellers in your genre to get an idea if your book fits in there, and I agree with that, but even more than that I'd find the publishers who consistently produce the top sellers, and look at their "coming soon" pages on their website. Do that, and you're benefiting from the thousands they spent on marketing.


Good advice and I do have some of my own research in that in the past, No Good Deed was in the top 20 in the Kindle Store--but that was two years ago, so that's why I'm wondering if things have changed. Two years ago, my cover worked, and to some extent, it worked in April when a combination of that cover and the March Into Hell cover, along with a Bookbub ad, sent a duo book of the two into the top 50, but I can't look at my covers objectively anymore. Was it mostly just the exposure that did the trick?


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Lacking real and substantial evidence for a specific designer, there is no reason to accept his claims. General surveys tell us nothing about a specific designer who claims he is able to increase sales.
> 
> In many industries this is called qualifying the bidder. Bidders for a contract have to demonstrate a capability to do what they claim they can do.


That's why portfolios exist for designers. Does the main talking for us. Also, moneyback guarantee is there for certain time, I allow 30 or even 60 days (for print covers). If author is not happy with the sales and doesn't see improvement, he can get a refund. I'm sure I'm not the only designer doing it. It shows something too..


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

I know where you're coming from Terrence, but what you're asking for cannot be done by any designer. Period. 

However, as I'm sure you've seen, there's overwhelming evidence that shows that great cover designs increase sales. Now the only thing you need to determine which designer to go with is their reputation- do authors actively praise these designers, and does the designer have a killer portfolio? If you tick both of those boxes, then you can be certain that a cover design from that designer will increase sales. Damonza has both boxes ticked. IMO, that's all the proof he needs.


----------



## B.D. Morris (May 31, 2013)

Thank you for such an insightful post!

Both as a reader and writer I have always preferred the more simplistic covers and I really struggled with this for my debut novel.  While I like my current cover, I have thought about having it redesigned and will definitely keep this in mind if I do so


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I agree with the OP. However, as a designer, I sometimes suggest something to an author and they don't want to take my advice. So I do what they want. I am getting paid to do the work - and I really can't quit on them just because they don't want to do it my way.

There's a fine line between "The customer is always right" and "I'm the designer so I know what I'm doing and you don't." I can suggest something, but in the end I do what the customer wants, because that's how I've run my other businesses.

BUT I totally understand where the OP is coming from.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RBC said:


> That's why portfolios exist for designers. Does the main talking for us. Also, moneyback guarantee is there for certain time, I allow 30 or even 60 days (for print covers). If author is not happy with the sales and doesn't see improvement, he can get a refund. I'm sure I'm not the only designer doing it. It shows something too..


Sure. A designer can show his work. That's real evidence of what he can do on the page. No question about it.

The question arises when he claims those designs increase sales. That's moving into new territory where there is nothing to show.



> I know where you're coming from Terrence, but what you're asking for cannot be done by any designer. Period.


I agree. That's the basis of my challenge.



> Now the only thing you need to determine which designer to go with is their reputation- do authors actively praise these designers, and does the designer have a killer portfolio? If you tick both of those boxes, then you can be certain that a cover design from that designer will increase sales.


That simply shows author praise and a killer portfolio. It doesn't address sales. I agree with your first point. It can't be done. But the idea that I can recognize a killer portfolio, and a killer cover, is interesting in the context of other people telling me I can't.

It's important to recognize the limits of what any contractor can promise. We might still choose to go with the contractor, but after dismissing the notion that he is uniquely qualified to determine the cover that will increase sales. That's what he's asking for when he says, "_Let me decide what goes on the cover."_ There's not enough evidence to delegate that much decision making authority.


----------



## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Nearly all of this fascinating thread addresses fiction. Do the concepts raised here apply to nonfiction covers? If not, what are the differences? And are there differences between narrative nonfiction, like the travelogues I write, vs., say, diet books or personal investment guides?


----------



## Griffin Hayes (Sep 20, 2011)

First off, I agree with the OP.

More often than not a clear, uncluttered cover will work best. Do all designers know what covers will rocket a book to stardom? Course not, but I can guarantee you neither do most authors. If I'm hiring a guy to lay a new floor in my house, I'll certainly listen to him when says go with hardwood over pressed wood. I'm hiring him for his expertise after all. I know I want it to look nice, but if he tells me the edges will start warping in three years, he's prolly right. If I don't trust he/she will do the project justice, we stop working together.

There's also this strange hostility in some of the responses I've seen, as though the OP implies a designer should have full creative control. I don't think anyone behaves that way. It's a given that as the client, if I'm paying, I should be happy. Now if the designer can make a case why my horror novel shouldn't have fluffy pink bunnies on the cover, I'll listen, but if I stubbornly stick to my fluffy bunny guns, it may be me who loses in the end.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

A designer can make the promise that his covers improve sales on the basis of customers informing him that's the case. The only thing that is impossible is for him to prove, undeniably, that customers have given him this feedback (as this is breach of privacy). That's what can't be done. But I think Damonza's work speaks for itself- many of the books he's worked on are ranking highly and even becoming bestsellers. While it's not undeniable proof, it's still proof. The rest of the proof will lie in the author's own data, after getting a cover design done by a competent designer such as Damonza.

There does need to be a little faith. There are PR firms that promise increased exposure and successful promotions. Through strong recommendations and their body of work, we can reasonably assume that they do as they promise. If they could not make the promise of increased exposure, what, exactly, would be their sales pitch? They wouldn't have one. Damonza's price tag (albeit much lower than what it should be) demands that he does more than just create a pretty picture- the cover has to do its job. Through experience, he can make that statement. It's the prerogative of the contractor to either put faith in that statement based on reputation and general proof, or go elsewhere.

I'm certain that not all authors feel that pro book covers are really all they're cracked up to be, and not worth the pretty price tag, and that they disregard Damonza's statements as so much talk. But that's one of the reasons why there are so many amateurish covers on the market (both traditional and self-published). Does that affect designers like Damonza? Not really, besides the fact that us designers look at these covers and think, "If only...." Thus Damonza's statement that he's making a "plea" with authors.

That's my view on things, anyhow, for what it's worth.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Mike McIntyre said:


> Nearly all of this fascinating thread addresses fiction. Do the concepts raised here apply to nonfiction covers? If not, what are the differences? And are there differences between narrative nonfiction, like the travelogues I write, vs., say, diet books or personal investment guides?


The concepts apply to all book cover design. Ultimately, the goal of a great book cover design is to:
1) Get the reader to pick it up from the shelf (or click its thumbnail), and
2) To correctly represent the book, so the reader knows what they're in for.

Exactly HOW this is achieved depends on each individual book, though there are standards according to genre.



Griffin Hayes said:


> First off, I agree with the OP.
> 
> More often than not a clear, uncluttered cover will work best. Do all designers know what covers will rocket a book to stardom? Course not, but I can guarantee you neither do most authors. If I'm hiring a guy to lay a new floor in my house, I'll certainly listen to him when says go with hardwood over pressed wood. I'm hiring him for his expertise after all. I know I want it to look nice, but if he tells me the edges will start warping in three years, he's prolly right. If I don't trust he/she will do the project justice, we stop working together.
> 
> There's also this strange hostility in some of the responses I've seen, as though the OP implies a designer should have full creative control. I don't think anyone behaves that way. It's a given that as the client, if I'm paying, I should be happy. Now if the designer can make a case why my horror novel shouldn't have fluffy pink bunnies on the cover, I'll listen, but if I stubbornly stick to my fluffy bunny guns, it may be me who loses in the end.


Thanks for your comment. But I have a bone to pick with you.

What's wrong with fluffy pink bunnies on horror novels?


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> If a cover designer claims his work can sell a book, then I'd expect to see a portfolio of covers and total sales of the books. If that can't be provided, I'd dismiss the claim.


I found these three covers on his page. Walking Disaster is from one of the most anticipated NA releases of the year. If the publisher trusted him for this, then that's a huge vote of confidence. and it's a big seller.

Flat Out Love and Flat Out Matt and are also highly anticipated books and big sellers. And Jessica Park has other covers in his portfolio. If she (or her publisher) keep going back that's another vote of confidence. I'm sure there are other best sellers and big sellers and repeat customers in his portfolio. These are just a few that I found right off the bat and recognized. These three covers confirm the claim. For me.


----------



## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

I saw nothing controversial in the post. An award winning art director once told me that the best artists listen carefully to what you want and then give you what you need.

I have scenic covers for my YA as seen below, but those aren't actual scenes from the books. They're representative. And in lower fantasy adventure YA and Middle Grade most books traditionally published have scenic style covers. Not all, of course, but in general that's what sells in that category. Probably kids want to see what kind of action and story they'll be getting.

Every genre has different cover needs.


----------



## Scarlett_R (Sep 30, 2011)

Reading the book: I do my best to read each book that I'm working on. I've learned to speed read over the past year and can do it very quickly, and I find it a really vital part of the process. This allows me to draw out the themes and symbolism that the author may not have even realised was written into the story. I don't need to take in the whole arc and know the finer details, but it's still better for me, personally, to be able to see the story from the author's perspective.

Firing a client: It is normal, in _any _business, to be faced with the possibility of firing a client. It happens more-so in artistic fields, and you'll find a lot of scenarios that can cause this to happen here: http://www.clientsfromhell.net. But I know accountants, VA's, artists, developers, marketers, copywriters and others who have had to fire a client and it's always for a variety of reasons. Please don't misunderstand this as designers/accountants/marketers being picky or anything, but it just happens that what they want, and what you can provide, can't come together for whatever reason. Not everyone will be a match and it's better for both parties to find other clients and service providers who will make the process easy. When you run a business there is _no _obligation to accept every single bite that comes your way. You're allowed to maintain a positive, healthy working relationship and being able to identify those who you can't work with, and the client will be better for it when they find someone who can work easily with them.

*But just remember:* This situation is _rare _and in my experience I have never fired a client. Find out your rights when it comes to that situation in the contract (as every single service provider you work with should have one) But business owners have rights to fire clients if the client is making the situation impossible, just like the client has a right to fire the business for the same reason. It's always a two way street.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

NathanWrann said:


> I found these three covers on his page. Walking Disaster is from one of the most anticipated NA releases of the year. If the publisher trusted him for this, then that's a huge vote of confidence. and it's a big seller.
> 
> Flat Out Love and Flat Out Matt and are also highly anticipated books and big sellers. And Jessica Park has other covers in his portfolio. If she (or her publisher) keep going back that's another vote of confidence. I'm sure there are other best sellers and big sellers and repeat customers in his portfolio. These are just a few that I found right off the bat and recognized. These three covers confirm the claim. For me.


Okay, I don't mean this aggressively. As I've said, I'm nearly graphics illiterate, but I'm trying to learn. This is a sincere question. I need to know what makes covers good. Can someone tell me why that third cover is good? It looks like an unreadable genre-vague mess to me, with its only virtue being the clarity of the author's name.


----------



## Scarlett_R (Sep 30, 2011)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> Okay, I don't mean this aggressively. As I've said, I'm nearly graphics illiterate, but I'm trying to learn. This is a sincere question. I need to know what makes covers good. Can someone tell me why that third cover is good? It looks like an unreadable genre-vague mess to me, with its only virtue being the clarity of the author's name.


I don't think we should go there as Damon is not looking for critique on his work, and this thread is specifically about the designer-author relationship; not Damon's port folio of work.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

Scarlett_R said:


> I don't think we should go there as Damon is not looking for critique on his work, and this thread is specifically about the designer-author relationship; not Damon's port folio of work.


I'm happy to not go there, but it was being held up to us as a model of excellence, so I assumed that there'd be nothing wrong with pointing out its good points. I wasn't planning to argue against them--I just didn't see them.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Scarlett_R said:


> I don't think we should go there as Damon is not looking for critique on his work, and this thread is specifically about the designer-author relationship; not Damon's port folio of work.


To be fair, it's also about what makes an effective "cover" (thumbnail, really). Nearly half of the original post is about that. I don't know if critiquing the OP's own covers is a good idea, but a general discussion is valid.


----------



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> I'm happy to not go there, but it was being held up to us as a model of excellence, so I assumed that there'd be nothing wrong with pointing out its good points. I wasn't planning to argue against them--I just didn't see them.


It was held up as an example of an anticipated book, not necessarily for design (some will like it some will not).


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Elisa, I think to understand the success of "Flat Out Matt", you have to look at "Flat Out Love". The book stands out amongst the competitors, yet still captures the vibe of the genre. It's undoubtedly chic-lit (i.e. romance without overdosing on the sappiness), but the bright palette speaks to a younger audience, which is the target. "Flat Out Matt" is a play on the original story. Immediately, previous readers know we're dealing with a continuation. Personal preferences aside, it achieves its goal, which is why I'm sure that author/her publisher will continue to use Damonza in future.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> And in lower fantasy adventure YA and Middle Grade most books traditionally published have scenic style covers. Not all, of course, but in general that's what sells in that category. Probably kids want to see what kind of action and story they'll be getting.
> 
> Every genre has different cover needs.


The problem is many of those needs are from the days of print.

I often wonder where the balance is between blending with the trads and doing what works with thumbs.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Ava Glass said:


> The problem is many of those needs are from the days of print.
> 
> I often wonder whether covers should blend with the trads, just do what works for thumbnails and stand out, or try to find a balance somewhere.


Balance. Indie authors have been lightyears ahead of the traditional publishing industry. Though this is quickly changing, traditional publishers have been focused on what makes for good paperback design, and treating online viewing of covers as an afterthought. As a result, many traditionally published covers are woefully inadequate when it comes to being reduced to thumbnail size.

But at the same time, there are paradigms that designers have to work with. Like CC said, you still have to get the correct message across.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

BelindaPepper said:


> Balance. Indie authors have been lightyears ahead of the traditional publishing industry. Though this is quickly changing, traditional publishers have been focused on what makes for good paperback design, and treating online viewing of covers as an afterthought. As a result, many traditionally published covers are woefully inadequate when it comes to being reduced to thumbnail size.
> 
> But at the same time, there are paradigms that designers have to work with. Like CC said, you still have to get the correct message across.


Ha, you got me before I edited. So where is the balance? Is balance all that necessary in every genre? In romance, the e-first publisher covers are often very discernible from the print.

ETA: I have a feeling cover designers often have problems with SFF authors. That genre has a long history of painted or illustrated scenes that really, really don't work as thumbs. Balance is needed there, but I suspect it takes a lot to convince some authors to let go of their vision of an 80s-style paperback.

ETA2: Which genre conventions can be thrown out entirely, which need to be kept, and which can find a happy medium?


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

NathanWrann said:


> I found these three covers on his page. Walking Disaster is from one of the most anticipated NA releases of the year. If the publisher trusted him for this, then that's a huge vote of confidence. and it's a big seller.
> 
> Flat Out Love and Flat Out Matt and are also highly anticipated books and big sellers. And Jessica Park has other covers in his portfolio. If she (or her publisher) keep going back that's another vote of confidence. I'm sure there are other best sellers and big sellers and repeat customers in his portfolio. These are just a few that I found right off the bat and recognized. These three covers confirm the claim. For me.


Ok. Whose page?


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> I found these three covers on his page. Walking Disaster is from one of the most anticipated NA releases of the year. If the publisher trusted him for this, then that's a huge vote of confidence. and it's a big seller.
> 
> Flat Out Love and Flat Out Matt and are also highly anticipated books and big sellers. And Jessica Park has other covers in his portfolio. If she (or her publisher) keep going back that's another vote of confidence. I'm sure there are other best sellers and big sellers and repeat customers in his portfolio. These are just a few that I found right off the bat and recognized. These three covers confirm the claim. For me.


These, as you repeatedly point out, are "most anticipated XX releases" which means the author has a following in the genre. It has been said here several times that established authors such as Martin (or McGuire) don't have to worry about telling what their novels are like and/or about. These covers to me don't give a clue as to either genre, content or mood.

Of course I don't put out "the most anticipated whatever of the year" so unlike those authors, I have to worry about these things in my cover.


----------



## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Ava Glass said:


> The problem is many of those needs are from the days of print.
> 
> I often wonder where the balance is between blending with the trads and doing what works with thumbs.


That very thought keeps me up at night! 

A lot of young readers have told me they read my books because of the covers, especially those who discover my first book on Wattpad.

There's also an expectations game. My books strongly appeal to the Percy Jackson and Last Airbender fans, but for a slightly older audience, so I need covers (I think) that will be similar to what they expect based on books they've enjoyed before.


----------



## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Griffin Hayes said:


> First off, I agree with the OP.
> 
> More often than not a clear, uncluttered cover will work best. Do all designers know what covers will rocket a book to stardom? Course not, but I can guarantee you neither do most authors. If I'm hiring a guy to lay a new floor in my house, I'll certainly listen to him when says go with hardwood over pressed wood. I'm hiring him for his expertise after all. I know I want it to look nice, but if he tells me the edges will start warping in three years, he's prolly right. If I don't trust he/she will do the project justice, we stop working together.
> 
> There's also this strange hostility in some of the responses I've seen, as though the OP implies a designer should have full creative control. I don't think anyone behaves that way. It's a given that as the client, if I'm paying, I should be happy. Now if the designer can make a case why my horror novel shouldn't have fluffy pink bunnies on the cover, I'll listen, but if I stubbornly stick to my fluffy bunny guns, it may be me who loses in the end.


Dude, your covers are badass!


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

BelindaPepper said:


> Elisa, I think to understand the success of "Flat Out Matt", you have to look at "Flat Out Love". The book stands out amongst the competitors, yet still captures the vibe of the genre. It's undoubtedly chic-lit (i.e. romance without overdosing on the sappiness), but the bright palette speaks to a younger audience, which is the target. "Flat Out Matt" is a play on the original story. Immediately, previous readers know we're dealing with a continuation. Personal preferences aside, it achieves its goal, which is why I'm sure that author/her publisher will continue to use Damonza in future.


Thank you for the response.


----------



## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> That very thought keeps me up at night!
> 
> A lot of young readers have told me they read my books because of the covers, especially those who discover my first book on Wattpad.
> 
> There's also an expectations game. My books strongly appeal to the Percy Jackson and Last Airbender fans, but for a slightly older audience, so I need covers (I think) that will be similar to what they expect based on books they've enjoyed before.


David - wicked covers!

I'm just curious, since we seem to write for a similar audience (I write adventure/light fantasy for the 10+ age group). How hard was it for you to find a cover designer? I found it INCREDIBLY hard. I am picky, but not crazy picky, but I only approached people who had kid-lit covers in their portfolios. It just seems most cover artists neglect this market in their portfolios and I can't understand why. *Hint Hint cover artists in this thread*


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

BelindaPepper said:


> What's wrong with fluffy pink bunnies on horror novels?


Just thought I'd mention this anthology by some KB members:



Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion....

Betsy


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> I think this still works, what do you think?


I personally don't think the Frazetta style works anymore for lots of reasons, but that is just my opinion.


----------



## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Look for illustrators that you like, style-wise. They can usually do any image or scene you want, genre is irrelevant. I've done placid mountain scenes, animals, farm scenes, romantic paintings, space ships and motorcycles, even wizards and dragons. For best results, pick a cover designer and an illustrator and let them communicate so the end result works in concert. Illustrators might not be the best graphic designers and vice versa, so get the best at what they do.


I managed to find a guy who was both an illustrator and graphic designer, so I got lucky. Plus he's affordable so that's a bonus b/c I have a bunch of book in queue. I always wonder, though, why graphic artists seem to neglect the kid-lit market when they are designing pre-made covers. I have a few short stories I'd like to put out for free, but I just can't justify expensive covers for short (free) stories. Perhaps kid-lit authors are still the minority in self publishing circles. I know quite a few, but....


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> It just seems most cover artists neglect this market in their portfolios and I can't understand why. *Hint Hint cover artists in this thread*


I can't speak for other designers but if I neglect the MG and lower YA market it's because of insufficient demand. The vast majority of my clients want romance. Occasionally they also request mystery, horror, science fiction, fantasy, or YA romance. Something else to consider is that many designers on KBoards (myself included) only do light photo manipulation, while illustration is more common in MG fiction. So when someone approaches me about a cover for a children's book, unless they're wanting a very simple concept, I prefer to point them in the direction of an illustrator.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

I agree that illustrated MG covers can't be pre-made. Too much time, too much effort. 

But I could point you to a hundred photo manipulated MG and lower YA  books that rock my socks off. Or some that are 90% type, or you have "hunger-games" style covers that are really impressive, but don't appear (to this non-artist) to be overly complex... But if the demand isn't there, I totally understand.


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Ok. Whose page?


The OP's.


----------



## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> If a cover designer claims his work can sell a book, then I'd expect to see a portfolio of covers and total sales of the books. If that can't be provided, I'd dismiss the claim.


Am I wrong or is this really easy to prove? If my book ranks 100,000 and the cover is redesigned, and the rank is now 1,000. Didn't that increase sales? Wouldn't a handful of test cases with new covers and a couple of release forms from said authors be all that is needed to verify that? Sure there are other factors, but set up the test case so that they all get the same 2 month relaunch strategy.

Ad agencies do it all the time. Units sold before and after an advertising campaign. Book covers are no different.


----------



## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> David - wicked covers!
> 
> I'm just curious, since we seem to write for a similar audience (I write adventure/light fantasy for the 10+ age group). How hard was it for you to find a cover designer? I found it INCREDIBLY hard. I am picky, but not crazy picky, but I only approached people who had kid-lit covers in their portfolios. It just seems most cover artists neglect this market in their portfolios and I can't understand why. *Hint Hint cover artists in this thread*


Thank you! I just approved the art for Book 3 and I'm super pleased with it, too.

I didn't approach cover designers. I approached illustrators on DeviantArt, contacting about 25 who could do professional work but weren't yet established (and thus affordable) and who I hoped were young, eager, and professional in their commitment. Okita, who did the art for me, was all those things. Only about 5/25 contacted me back, not even the guy who said he desperately wanted to add MG covers to his portfolio!

I do the font design and all myself. Can't afford to pay someone else for that after paying for art.

Your covers are great! Look good large and in thumbnail and get across the excitement element that I think is essential for that target market. And you definitely got lucky find someone who could do that.


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> These, as you repeatedly point out, are "most anticipated XX releases" which means the author has a following in the genre. It has been said here several times that established authors such as Martin (or McGuire) don't have to worry about telling what their novels are like and/or about. These covers to me don't give a clue as to either genre, content or mood.
> 
> Of course I don't put out "the most anticipated whatever of the year" so unlike those authors, I have to worry about these things in my cover.


The reason that I pointed them out as "most anticipated" is because that means that they are very valuable properties to either a publisher with deep pockets (Walking Disaster) that could hire anybody to do the cover or a self-publisher who knows the importance of putting a good cover on their livelihood (Flat Out...). In both cases they went to Damonza, which means that he must do good work, on time, that gets the job done (i.e. sells the book). Otherwise they would go to a different designer and Damonza wouldn't get repeat business. When I hire someone to do my covers, I want to hire the person that other best-sellers go back to over and over again.

No, Martin and McGuire, as authors, don't need to worry about telling what their novels are about, but their publishers do.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

NathanWrann said:


> The OP's.


Ok. I'll discuss ideas put froth by the OP, but I won't specifically be discussing him or his work. I know nothing about him.


----------



## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> I don't think it comes down to a specific reader expectation, it is the message. Flat Out Love, I looked, it's a rom-com and that's what it looks like - with lots of stand-out curb appeal. It's a great genre cover, imo.
> 
> SFF still does well with great illustration, the problem is the great illustrators that made those classic covers so amazing don't come cheap. So you get lots of "new" artists that are still learning, doing covers for cheap or cutting corners with photo manipulation, which can be cool - no insult intended in the least. But, I haven't seen any Indie covers that compare with this:
> 
> ...


I don't think it will work to sell books anymore, partly because the sort of book that would go with doesn't sell well anymore, believe me, and it's a bit jumbled looking when in thumbnail.

Don't get me wrong, Frazetta is an amazing artist, and I'm sure artists and old-school fantasy fans would love a cover like it, but times and tastes and needs change. I've had this very discussion with two traditional publishing graphic designers in charge of fantasy lines.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

NathanWrann said:


> The OP's.


Ok. I'll discuss ideas put froth by the OP, but I won't specifically be discussing him or his work. I know nothing about him.

The particular idea I am contesting is the notion that authors should decide what goes in the book, but designers should decide what goes on the cover. That's a degree of delegation of authority that isn't supported by evidence that giving the designer sole discretion leads to higher sales.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> The reason that I pointed them out as "most anticipated" is because that means that they are very valuable properties to either a publisher with deep pockets (Walking Disaster) that could hire anybody to do the cover or a self-publisher who knows the importance of putting a good cover on their livelihood (Flat Out...). In both cases they went to Damonza, which means that he must do good work, on time, that gets the job done (i.e. sells the book). Otherwise they would go to a different designer and Damonza wouldn't get repeat business. When I hire someone to do my covers, I want to hire the person that other best-sellers go back to over and over again.
> 
> No, Martin and McGuire, as authors, don't need to worry about telling what their novels are about, but their publishers do.


Not necessarily. As has been pointed out repeatedly, with established authors the covers are often different than with new authors because readers already know what to expect from them (and the publishers know that). The same cover might well not work for a new author. I don't buy your assumption that they will.

I don't want to hire "the person other best sellers go to" if the kind of cover they do isn't best for the point I'm at in publishing and the kind of novel I write. Just because someone does covers for random best sellers doesn't mean they're the best for my novels.

(ETA: Nor does it mean I would be willing to work with a designer who thought I should have no say over the final design. Not all designers and authors are the right fit however many covers the designer has done)



Terrence OBrien said:


> Ok. I'll discuss ideas put froth by the OP, but I won't specifically be discussing him or his work. I know nothing about him.
> 
> The particular idea I am contesting is the notion that authors should decide what goes in the book, but designers should decide what goes on the cover. That's a degree of delegation of authority that isn't supported by evidence that the designer and his preferences will increase sales.


Very true.


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Ok. I'll discuss ideas put froth by the OP, but I won't specifically be discussing him or his work. I know nothing about him.


I didn't post the covers as a discussion of his work. You said:


Terrence OBrien said:


> If a cover designer claims his work can sell a book, then I'd expect to see a portfolio of covers and total sales of the books. If that can't be provided, I'd dismiss the claim.


So, I pointed out that he has a portfolio and in that portfolio are three that I identified, at a glance, to be best-sellers. I don't think we need to see the publisher's total sales numbers of the books to understand that these books, with these covers, are selling well. Claim made, portfolio to back it up.

No need to discuss him or his work.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Nathan, I will give you this. If I could hire Penman's cover designer, I probably would do it in a heartbeat. But that isn't just any "best selling" cover. There are thousands of "best sellers" every year and I am WAY past being all that impressed.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

NathanWrann said:


> I didn't post the covers as a discussion of his work. You said:So, I pointed out that he has a portfolio and in that portfolio are three that I identified, at a glance, to be best-sellers. I don't think we need to see the publisher's total sales numbers of the books to understand that these books, with these covers, are selling well. Claim made, portfolio to back it up.
> 
> No need to discuss him or his work.


I'll stand on my previous statement, and refrain from any discussion of him or his work.


----------



## morgan_n (Oct 21, 2011)

And then, what about those novels that are not typical of any commercial genre and were never intended by the author to be anything but unique? The cover image would have to be unique as well, totally original, and such covers are all but nonexistent in the indie realm. This is what the traditional publishers pay $3, 000 - $5,000 for, a little beyond my promotion budget, I'm afraid!


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Not necessarily. As has been pointed out repeatedly, with established authors the covers are often different than with new authors because readers already know what to expect from them (and the publishers know that).


I think this is a misconception. Do publishers ONLY want to sell books to people who already know who the author is? When I see "Walking Disaster" on the shelf or on the screen, whether I know about the first book or not, should it still attract me as a potential customer? Isn't there some level of anticipation from the existing fans that the publisher had better deliver a cover that lives up to their expectations?



JRTomlin said:


> The same cover might well not work for a new author. I don't buy your assumption that they will.


I made no such assumption that the same cover would work for another author. But the cover designer who is entrusted with these properties has some level of clout that tells me they know what they're doing. And they will probably know what to do with a "new author," an experienced author, a sequel, a series etc etc.



JRTomlin said:


> I don't want to hire "the person other best sellers go to" if *the kind of cover they do isn't best for the point I'm at* in publishing and the kind of novel I write.


 [/quote]

I don't even know what the part I bolded means. Does that mean that because he has done some best-seller covers, and work for established authors that he won't be able to do effective work for a first time author? That seems ridiculous. Especially if the designer has a portfolio that also includes sequels, series, first-time authors, Big 6 pubbed, self-pubbed and a number of different genres.



JRTomlin said:


> Just because someone does covers for random best sellers doesn't mean they're the best for my novels.


Absolutely true. Nobody is trying to convince you that they are.



JRTomlin said:


> (ETA: Nor does it mean I would be willing to work with a designer who thought I should have no say over the final design. Not all designers and authors are the right fit however many covers the designer has done)


I don't think the OP ever said that the author should have "no say" but if that's how you took it, then that's how you took it. For me, I'm soon to be in the market for a cover designer for a pair of books. When I see the OP's manifesto (on page one of this thread), his willingness to think outside the box*, the quality of his portfolio, his rates AND the fact that he does work for best-sellers, that tells me that he's at the top of the list to have a conversation with when the time is right. If we discuss the book, my ideas, his ideas and I like the way it's going then it's a done deal. as I said:


NathanWrann said:


> For me.


*


Damonza said:


> The other -riskier- option, is to step away from that generic look and try something completely unique. Unless the author specifically gives me the go ahead to do that, or leaves the design entirely up to me, I wouldn't even try. I guess it depends on the book and the author.


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

morgan_n said:


> And then, what about those novels that are not typical of any commercial genre and were never intended by the author to be anything but unique? The cover image would have to be unique as well, totally original, and such covers are all but nonexistent in the indie realm. This is what the traditional publishers pay $3, 000 - $5,000 for, a little beyond my promotion budget, I'm afraid!


Do you have an example? I'd be interested in seeing what you're describing.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> He did other paintings,
> 
> I was referring to the emotion conveyed by the brush, not necessarily this painting - it was the one I found quickly. Frazetta was amazing at giving his paintings life. I think this caliber of artist is preferred to photo manipulation or photos, at least for SFF. I could be completely wrong, but I hope not. The amazing covers is one of the things that drew me to SFF.


Are you talking about illustration in general, or specifically his style? If you want to talk about illustration in general, then why not use one of the SFF artists publishers use today like Chris McGrath or Dan Dos Santos? They are probably influenced by Frazetta (I think McGrath's bio says he was), but their styles are for today, and they seem to have adapted their styles even more for ebooks (see the McGrath examples I posted earlier). Someone who posts here on the boards has a Dos Santos cover that looks nice as a thumbnail. ETA: found it:

http://soulborn-kevinjamesbreaux.blogspot.com/2010/04/soul-born-cover-art-by-dan-dos-santos.html

But yeah, Frazetta was a master, but his style won't work for today's covers, print or e.


----------



## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

How about a Steve Jobs approach?

To his ad agency: "I don't know what I want. But I'll know it when I see it."


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> I think this is a misconception. Do publishers ONLY want to sell books to people who already know who the author is? When I see "Walking Disaster" on the shelf or on the screen, whether I know about the first book or not, should it still attract me as a potential customer? Isn't there some level of anticipation from the existing fans that the publisher had better deliver a cover that lives up to their expectations?
> 
> I made no such assumption that the same cover would work for another author. But the cover designer who is entrusted with these properties has some level of clout that tells me they know what they're doing. And they will probably know what to do with a "new author," an experienced author, a sequel, a series etc etc.
> 
> ...


The Bolded part meant just LITTLE details like what genre, what mood, what market segment were they designing covers for. There are tons of designers out there who have done covers almost entirely for a limited range of genres: mostly romances or mostly fantasy/sf or mostly YA who would be totally inappropriate to hire for another genre. There are ones that do light fanciful covers or maybe dark moody ones who aren't good at other types. Most designers are NOT good at everything any more than most writers are. I happen to think it is_ ridiculous_ to think that a designer is equally good at everything.

If you're really impressed then go for it. What it has convinced me of (to be equally frank) is that there are a couple of designers who posted those "tend to your writing and leave the cover to the designer" remarks whom I wouldn't work with on a bet. But there are always people who just plain shouldn't work together. I have no doubt you and I would end up killing each other.

ETA: On the topic of sequel covers, the demonstrable fact that sequel covers so frequently give very little hint as to genre or theme makes me suspect that the publishers often have another strategy than you are thinking. But obviously we simply have different opinions on that and what is in the MIND of publishers is impossible to prove.


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> The Bolded part meant just LITTLE details like what genre, what mood, what market segment were they designing covers for. There are tons of designers out there who have done covers almost entirely for a limited range of genres: romances or fantasy/sf or YA who would be totally inappropriate to hire for another genre. There are ones that do light fanciful covers or maybe dark moody ones who aren't good at other types. Most designers are NOT good at everything any more than most writers are.


Absolutely true. If Damonza's work didn't appeal to my tastes, his manifesto, comments or sales record wouldn't convince me otherwise. It's a combination of the entire package, no single component.



JRTomlin said:


> If you're really impressed then go for it. What it has convinced me of (to be equally frank) is that there are a couple of designers who posted those "tend to your writing and leave the cover to the designer" remarks whom I wouldn't work with on a bet. But there are always people who just plain shouldn't work together. *I have no doubt you and I would end up killing each other.*


Oh. We can agree on something? lol.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> Absolutely true. If Damonza's work didn't appeal to my tastes, his manifesto, comments or sales record wouldn't convince me otherwise. It's a combination of the entire package, no single component.
> 
> Oh. We can agree on something? lol.


Well, yes, apparently upon very rare occasion we do agree. 

ETA: And that we look for different things in different genres was really my main objection to a lot of this. There is a reason my HF covers look so totally different from my fantasy covers. I don't know how to design and know nothing about fonts and kerns and whatnot but I spent a lot of time looking at covers in my chosen genres so I am not totally ignorant (in spite of the opinion of some designers) when I discuss what I am looking for in a cover.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> I agree with you a lot  - but not in this. The professional designers know product messaging, which means multiple industries, as well as, multiple book genres. But, the less expensive designers seem to have specialized in certain genres. I'm not sure if that is due to preference or circumstance.


Well, I freely admit I don't know any of the top designers at the Big 6, but my experience with designers has been that they do have limitations. That is pretty much true of all human beings. No one is good at everything even in their own field, so until I'm proven wrong... I'll assume I'm right. 

ETA: Of course, I don't mean that they can't design in more than one genre, but I have no doubt that certain genres or types of covers simply would not be a good fit. Hence, when I look for a designer, I look for one who has done at least the general mood or genre that I want done.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> but I spent a lot of time looking at covers in my chosen genres so I am not totally ignorant (in spite of the opinion of some designers)


I mean this in the nicest possible way: I'm pretty sure no one ever said that you were ignorant. You seem to be taking generalised statements personally, and I'm not sure why.



> The professional designers know product messaging, which means multiple industries, as well as, multiple book genres. But, the less expensive designers seem to have specialized in certain genres. I'm not sure if that is due to preference or circumstance.


And that's the crux. The _less _experienced and knowledgeable the designer, the _less _likely they are to be able to move freely between genres, as well as give different covers within a genre a truly unique appeal. And I'm not saying that if a designer can't work in all genres they're not any good. Simply that it's an indication of either their experience level, or their personal preferences regarding work they take on (probably a mix of both).


----------



## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Google Michael Whelan. I think he does pretty well for himself.
> 
> His style. I'm lost, why won't his style (or Rowena, Boris, Whelan), work for current books?
> 
> I agree with you a lot  - but not in this. The professional designers know product messaging, which means multiple industries, as well as, multiple book genres. But, the less expensive designers seem to have specialized in certain genres. I'm not sure if that is due to preference or circumstance.


Rowena and Boris are VERY out of style in publishing. Whelan not as much out of style but starting to be. Best answer I can give is this:

Why do radio stations play Katy Perry and Taylor Swift instead of .38 Special and Blue Oyster Cult?

Tastes and styles change over time. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the art. The artists you listed are good artists. When I was a teen I'd buy a book simply because of a Michael Whelan cover. I started reading fantasy because of a Michael Whelan cover, but if I was a kid today would it still captivate me? I have no idea. Possibly not. Publishers have to fit modern tastes. Look how many classics have had different cover styles over the years.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> His style. I'm lost, why won't his style (or Rowena, Boris, Whelan), work for current books?


A lot of it is precisely the kind of scene-based imagery the OP is talking about here:



> One of the most common requests I get from clients is to depict a particular scene from the book on the cover. It happens all the time, and is a good example of what doesn't work on a book cover. The potential reader is glancing at your cover for maybe two seconds. TWO SECONDS! There could be an incredibly detailed scene on your cover that shows the protagonist running down the road after her lover in the rain of a downtown Chicago neighborhood, conveying a real sense of lost love, hope and anguish. But in TWO SECONDS nobody is going to see that. What they're going to see is a tiny thumbnail smudge and a typical indie author mistake of trying to put too much information on the cover. That will turn potential readers away far more often than it will convince them to click on that image.


There's too much going on to work on a thumbnail.

Why won't Frazetta some of the other older styles work for today's print either? Loin cloths and chain-mail bikinis, dated color palette...it's just not the style anymore. David Alastair Hayden said it well.


----------



## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> I don't think it will work to sell books anymore, partly because the sort of book that would go with doesn't sell well anymore, believe me, and it's a bit jumbled looking when in thumbnail.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Frazetta is an amazing artist, and I'm sure artists and old-school fantasy fans would love a cover like it, but times and tastes and needs change. I've had this very discussion with two traditional publishing graphic designers in charge of fantasy lines.


The OP makes an interesting statement when he says the author doesn't necessarily know what he wants, so the artist steps in. I'll take that cept one step further and say the *reader* doesn't necessarily know what she wants, either.

The components that usually separate pro from amateur covers are: visual complexity and density in image and text. The OP achieves that in the text of Flat Out Love. I agree that an all-text cover works for this title, but the articulation of colors and shapes is confusing and lacks focus. It violates the OP's dictum of simplicity.

The Franzetta Icon cover is confusing but might appeal to comic book readers who go ape over an artist who can draw muscles and figures in violent poses. The presumed good guy (top center) isn't wearing different armor than the other warriors. Is he a rebel taking on his own army? An image like that would never pass for historical fiction.

Once you get into the story, what does the cover matter? You won't recommend the book to a friend on the basis of the cover if the book itself stinks, would you?

My pet theory is that, increasingly, life resembles the lottery with millions of players, with a few big winners, a number of lesser winners, and lots of losers, with rather little to differentiate among the pack. If you arranged a selection of highly articulated covers, could the average reader pick the author who sells in the millions from those books that sell in the thousands, in the dribs and drabs? Could anybody? I doubt it.


----------



## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

So this won't sell books? Better tell that to the people publishing Warhammer and Dungeons and Dragons books. Because they've been aping Frazetta for decades and never stopped.










I'd kill to hire someone half as talented as that.


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Rowena and Boris are VERY out of style in publishing. Whelan not as much out of style but starting to be. Best answer I can give is this:
> 
> Why do radio stations play Katy Perry and Taylor Swift instead of .38 Special and Blue Oyster Cult?
> 
> Tastes and styles change over time. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the art. The artists you listed are good artists. When I was a teen I'd buy a book simply because of a Michael Whelan cover. I started reading fantasy because of a Michael Whelan cover, but if I was a kid today would it still captivate me? I have no idea. Possibly not. Publishers have to fit modern tastes. Look how many classics have had different cover styles over the years.


You need to change the dial. Radio stations I listen to pay .38 Special and Blue Oyster Cult. Long live the oldies stations. 

Damon designed my cover and just from talking to him and his mock ups, you feel like you're in good hands. That goes along way in taking his advice since you feel that in you're good hands. Like Nathan said, it's a "whole package" deal.

I think he makes valid points in the OP, in the end it's still our decision. And Damon even said he might even lose business over his new policy.

I would also imagine the micro-manager customer sucks up a lot of his time, sometimes firing a customer is necessary.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

burke_KB said:


> So this won't sell books? Better tell that to the people publishing Warhammer and Dungeons and Dragons books. Because they've been aping Frazetta for decades and never stopped.


No one's saying Frazetta isn't important or influential, but those two examples you mention updated their color schemes at some point, and I haven't seen any loin cloths or chainmail bikinis in a long while.

Latest Drizzt novel:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Companions-Sundering-Book-ebook/dp/B00BE24W0W/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1370585277&sr=1-1&keywords=forgotten+realms

It's not exactly the same.


----------



## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

burke_KB said:


> So this won't sell books? Better tell that to the people publishing Warhammer and Dungeons and Dragons books. Because they've been aping Frazetta for decades and never stopped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a better, clearer image than the one for Icon; and, yes, it will sell a certain kind of book.


----------



## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

burke_KB said:


> So this won't sell books? Better tell that to the people publishing Warhammer and Dungeons and Dragons books. Because they've been aping Frazetta for decades and never stopped.
> 
> I'd kill to hire someone half as talented as that.


They haven't in the last fifteen years. The art D&D uses changed a lot around 2000. They started using a very different style with covers by folks like Todd Lockwood (great artist and a great guy). They moved away from the gritty, muscly, dark style of fantasy covers just like the rest of the publishing industry, although it took them a little longer to do so. (I don't really think they apes Frazetta either.)

Look, I'm not knocking Frazetta. I love his work. Some of the best fantasy art of the 20th Century. But times change. Most art, music, even our books fall out of fashion given a generation or so. Most of the best selling novels from two generations ago aren't in print and are forgotten.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

BelindaPepper said:


> I mean this in the nicest possible way: I'm pretty sure no one ever said that you were ignorant. You seem to be taking generalised statements personally, and I'm not sure why.


Oh, I don't think it was aimed just at me in particular. The implication was that_ all_ writers (at least the majority of us who aren't designers) can't possibly know anything about what will work and should "mind our own business". I just happen to be amongst that group and the one who is speaking up to say, "Hold on there, Hoss." So I think the "you're ignorant" was aimed at pretty much all authors.

Of course if you say a certain group is ignorant, members of the group will say it is aimed at them.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

burke_KB said:


> So this won't sell books? Better tell that to the people publishing Warhammer and Dungeons and Dragons books. Because they've been aping Frazetta for decades and never stopped.
> 
> I'd kill to hire someone half as talented as that.


Same here. That is freaking fantastic.

I like the new Salvatore covers as well which are pretty "scene" based if I remember correctly.

ETA: Haha! You know what else. The cover to Salvatore's yet to be released_ The Sundering _reminds me very much of the original paperback cover of _Game of Thrones_ which was a style we were told was so terribly dated.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Companions-Sundering-Book-ebook/dp/B00BE24W0W


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> Oh, I don't think it was aimed just at me in particular. The implication was that_ all_ writers (at least the majority of us who aren't designers) can't possibly know anything about what will work and should "mind our own business". I just happen to be amongst that group and the one who is speaking up to say, "Hold on there, Hoss." So I think the "you're ignorant" was aimed at pretty much all authors.
> 
> Of course if you say a certain group is ignorant, members of the group will say it is aimed at them.


The only place I recall reading about the "ignorance" of writers is in _your_ posts. I think you've totally misunderstood the intent of the posts in this thread. But you seem to be determined to call offence to advice which was not meant to be offensive, or focused on every writer (if it were, Damonza would have no clients left), so on that point, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Yep, fantasy covers in adventure/more traditional fantasy are still pretty scene-based:

























I can attest that the scene on each of those covers is taken directly from each novel. Illustration of scenes is still used a lot for some types of covers.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I gave my opinion on the, "Let me decide what goes on the cover." comments. That attitude is simply insulting but the subject has been beaten to death.



Doomed Muse said:


> Yep, fantasy covers in adventure/more traditional fantasy are still pretty scene-based:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very true, Doomed Muse.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

I used that same Sundering cover to show a Frazetta-_influenced_ (it's not exactly the same) style that could work on a modern thumbnail.

The scene-based Drizzt covers are for hardcovers first. Most people here don't have the luxury of all that space. They have thumbnails and less than two seconds of eyeball time. Balances will have to be struck if they want to blend. That Sundering book is an example of something they can try, imo.

I could barely see what those other Drizzt covers were about on my iphone. There was one Forgotten Realms cover image that wasn't discernible even after I clicked on it.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Here are a bunch of Drizzt covers, the modern ones, in small size:








I think they work just fine. They show genre, look like a series (have good branding) and capture the feel of the books.


----------



## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

burke_KB said:


> So this won't sell books? Better tell that to the people publishing Warhammer and Dungeons and Dragons books. Because they've been aping Frazetta for decades and never stopped.
> 
> (Snip cool image)
> 
> I'd kill to hire someone half as talented as that.


Awesome. Love the horse!

Jodi


----------



## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

What would you consider the Harry Dresden covers? I started on them when Butcher was first writing them, though not when they were first published (or in other words, he had two or three out on the shelves by the time I discovered him). I have a few--maybe up to the Ghost one? Maybe one beyond it--that were of the original cover art (no man on the cover). But I do like the newer covers.

















The storm one fits much better with the story, however. Lightening was important in that one. The newer one with the man on it is more generic. I think the only reason why I like the newer covers is the man candy, the guy with his trench coat and his face shadowed by a hat makes for an attractive image.

Jodi


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

The first couple Dresden Files novels were branded more toward the mystery side than the fantasy side. Urban fantasy, especially with a male main character, hadn't really taken off yet.  Roc played up the mystery/PI angle in the early marketing more than the fantasy angle.  Now the series is popular enough and the genre is well known, so it makes sense to rebrand them with covers more in line with the Urban fantasy side of things.


----------



## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Doomed Muse said:


> The first couple Dresden Files novels were branded more toward the mystery side than the fantasy side. Urban fantasy, especially with a male main character, hadn't really taken off yet. Roc played up the mystery/PI angle in the early marketing more than the fantasy angle. Now the series is popular enough and the genre is well known, so it makes sense to rebrand them with covers more in line with the Urban fantasy side of things.


Ah, a genre shift. Okay. That makes sense. 

Jodi


----------



## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

A very interesting thread. For what it's worth, I freely admit I know nothing about design. I know what I like, and I think I know what "works" and what doesn't - but I couldn't tell you why it works or not. I don't have that kind of eye for fonts and positioning.

When I'm looking for a cover (as I'm about to shortly), I mooch around the net and copy links of images that inspire me or call to me and seem relevant in some way to my book. I send all these to my designer with a blurb and genre stuff and let him get on with it. He'll send me a few mock-ups and we go from there, narrowing it down, changing things until I'm happy. It works for me.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Fantasy, _particularly _fantasy geared towards a younger audience, is one of the genres where you *can* have a painterly scene.

But, notice the difference between today's "scenic" covers and the scenic covers of the 80's/ early 90's. "Back in the day", these scenes would contain a _lot _of detail and _low _contrast. The problem? It takes the reader longer to make sense of of images like this. Regardless of whether or not you believe that people are less patient these days, it IS an issue when a cover is reduced to thumbnail size.

Check out these older books:

http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1220752967l/1082252.jpg
http://cdn-i.dmdentertainment.com/cracked/jp/bucholz/B10339.jpg
http://www.goodshowsir.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/The_Omega_Cage.jpg

The problems with these books is the art lacks a strong, immediately recognisable focal point. The more you learn about artistic fundamentals, the more you'll understand why. To abbreviate, it's because of lack of strong contrast, consistent saturation levels across the whole work, and consistent levels of detail. Although there's nothing technically wrong with these images, they're not suitable for today's book industry, because they lack a strong focal point (which automatically translates well when reduced in size).

Conversely, look at these images:

http://www.orbitbooks.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Wards-of-Faerie.bmp
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_t68ar0SFX54/TCoEBbFljzI/AAAAAAAAE-g/qXBxQvhL10I/s1600/kings+of+morning+cover+mockup.jpg
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18m3xv1ohbs6hjpg/ku-medium.jpg
http://www.sanantoniomag.com/The_Serpents_Shadow_Cover.jpg

Firstly, I had a much more difficult time of finding recent novels that actually had a painted scene. Secondly, the covers that DID have some sort of scene, we notice higher contrast (i.e. more light on dark and dark on light), and less detail (larger chunks of the image were out of focus).

For those folk who are disputing for or against scenes: it is certainly easier to create a more iconic, eye-catching and instantly discernable covers when we _don't _paint scenes. However, if you're in the sci-fi/fantasy genre (especially when concerning MG/YA), you can still use scene. But you have to make sure that the detail is dialed back, and contrast is ramped up, and that you have some variation in saturation.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

The more modern cover for some of your older ones (the only one still in print, to my knowledge) is still a scene:


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Actually that's a really good example, because it shows how they've tweaked things for the modern age.

While it's still definitely focused on paperback release (there's a lot going on in that scene that won't read at all in smaller size), they have improved on the original design.

Notice the increased contrast? The characters are a lot darker than their surrounding environment. This creates focus. The background is also painted with  slightly broader strokes- it doesn't have *quite* as much detail as the characters do. It's also less saturated, which indicates depth and brings the characters further into focus.


----------



## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Squint your eyes. Which cover is more aesthetically pleasing? Most would say it's the modern version.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Jenni Norris (Oct 10, 2012)

Thanks for the good advice about book covers. In my case the publishing company matched me with an illustrator (Joanna Scott - fabulous) and she interpreted one of several ideas I put forward. I think my cover art is stunning and I'm sure a lot of children and parents have bought the book because of it. It does depict a scene from the book but giving the illustrator full reign made all the difference.

Best wishes, Jenni


----------



## JenniferHarlow (Jun 8, 2013)

When it came time to find a cover designer I looked at many sites but finally settled on Damonza because he had the best portfolio. I had no idea exactly what I wanted for the cover except I told him I wanted bright colors, something moody, and that somehow telegraphed the book was about superheroes. That was it. He knocked it out of the park. When I got my cover I wanted to put it on canvas and hang it like a work of art. Basically, I let him do his thing (not easy for a total control freak) because through his portfolio he showed me he knew what he was doing better than me. In the end, I knew I had final veto power, but I hired him for said expertise. A cover designer could just give you what you want, they're getting paid no matter how many books you sell, so if a professional without a massive vested interest in your work offers suggestions you'd be very remiss not to listen. JMHO


----------



## VDouglas (May 15, 2011)

Damon is great (I LOVE the Za) and his advice is better. I've seen some amazingly bad covers, but not by Damon. I had actually won an award with one of my self-made covers, but the book wasn't getting the right kind of attention or doing as well numbers as the reviews suggested. Damon designed the cover and its done great since then.




















Doesn't he do great work?!! I was smart enough to just tell him about the book, and let him do what he does. That's why you hire a professional, you choose them for their work, and then trust him to do it.


----------



## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

My experience just as a reader is that the less-known you are as an author, the more your cover needs to hit your genre mark, whether that's girls in flowing dresses or whatever. As your books / series / name becomes more well-known, that's when you can get more stylistic with your covers, because at the point it's the author's name / series name driving sales, and not really the cover. As an example, you use _Game of Thrones / Song of Ice and Fire_ by George R.R. Martin. The current cover is not the original. His original cover was very Fantasy and it did depict a scene / character from the book: one of the Starks on a horse with one of the dire wolves. Yes, the cover now features a cool symbol, but the series is so well-known you could use a brown grocery bag for the cover with the Title and Author written in with a Sharpie and guess what--it's gonna sell. The cover design isn't what's driving his sales at this point.































Obviously you can't make the same argument for _Twilight_, _The Hunger Games_, etc., but I do think it's a fair bet those books had a lot more marketing push behind them than _A Game of Thrones_ initially did.


----------

