# Success and the mental fortitude to accept meager sales as success



## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

I have a question for everyone who is NOT selling 10000 copies a month.  

I read some of the authors here on this forum, who come out with their first book, and it sells 30 copies in month 1, 15 in month 2, 4 copies in month 3.  They then come out with book 2, and it sells 85 copies total.  

And they are happy!  Their posts are like a ray of sunshine!  How do you guys do it?  I mean, if I wrote a book (let's say, it was the Danny McRay Vietnam sniper book, or the Asian Ms. IT romance book, or even the modern romance with Mr. Dark Secret/Mr. Stalker/Mr. Another Guy), put it up on Amazon, and it sold only 500 copies... I'd go and jump off a bridge.  I mean - I put my heart and soul into it, make it as perfect as I can, tell a story that people should want read, and... the world just shrugs.  But how do writers stay positive? 

I mean, I see some posts where people say they published their book, and the numbers are in the low double digits (an entire book! and it sold 17 copies!) - and they are happy campers!  How  How can you not get depressed?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Each person's expectations, goals, and definition of success are different from someone else's. Focus on your sales and your career, not someone else's. If you don't like your results, change your approach and/or your expectations.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

How do your books do, DoG?


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I mean, if I wrote a book (let's say, it was the Danny McRay Vietnam sniper book, or the Asian Ms. IT romance book, or even the modern romance with Mr. Dark Secret/Mr. Stalker/Mr. Another Guy), put it up on Amazon, and it sold only 500 copies... I'd go and jump off a bridge.


I'd recommend searching for a good therapist, then. 



> How How can you not get depressed?


Everyone has their own emotional disposition from which they perceive a particular situation. Are you honestly looking for explanations?


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Anonymous poster trying to rain on everyone's parade. Must resist  . . . 

No seriously, who are you? Do you even HAVE a book in the game? I've seen you around now, not all 106 of your posts, but enough of them. You've been here all of 8 days. And now you're saying something is wrong for people celebrating 85 sales?

Heck yeah they should celebrate 85 sales. Because you don't ever GET to 10,000 books sold in a month, year or whatever without selling those first 85. Or those first 8. Or that first 1.

Success is not just money. Success is the result you get when you never give up.


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

I feel the same way about people who only sell 10000 copies a month. 

FWIW whether it was your intention or not, your thread comes across as a pretty obvious trolling. Pretty sure it was intentional though. I don't really care either way. Just saying.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Heck yeah they should celebrate 85 sales. Because you don't ever GET to 10,000 books sold in a month, year or whatever without selling those first 85. Or those first 8. Or that first 1.
> 
> Success is not just money. Success is the result you get when you never give up.


Yep.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

My guess is that DoG has never written a book and therefore simply cannot understand.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

Sweet Amber said:


> Everyone has their own emotional disposition from which they perceive a particular situation. Are you honestly looking for explanations?


I think it's more an inability to relate to the train of thought "I sold 23 copies of my book ==>I feel great". Maybe it's some mental block in my head. I mean, I can see - 5000 copies a month, OK. But I get some kind of cognitive dissonance when I see happy posts.

Don't get me wrong - it's kind of nice to read somebody writing things like that. But I just don't understand how their minds re-frame this as cause for happiness.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

Monique said:


> How do your books do, DoG?


If I had any books, I am sure they'd do poorly


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Anonymous poster trying to rain on everyone's parade. Must resist . . .
> 
> No seriously, who are you? Do you even HAVE a book in the game? I've seen you around now, not all 106 of your posts, but enough of them. You've been here all of 8 days. A*nd now you're saying something is wrong for people celebrating 85 sales?*
> 
> ...


No, just the opposite - I actually like seeing posts where people celebrate 85 sales. Maybe (and this is just philosophical musing) I am unable to separate, in my head, success in writing books from the idea of making money on them.


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## Z. Rider (Aug 15, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Because you don't ever GET to 10,000 books sold in a month, year or whatever without selling those first 85. Or those first 8. Or that first 1.


THIS. Thank you. This thread was worth it just for this. We all start with that first one, then that first 8, then that first 85, and as long as we focus on how we're doing compared to our own past performance ("Last month I hadn't even published a book--this month sixteen complete strangers bought my book!") rather than how we're doing compared to someone else's performance, it can be pretty easy to be thrilled with our small successes.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

I think most of the solution is perspective. If I write a book and it only sells a few meager copies and then trends toward even fewer copies, so what? It's not the end of the world. Far from it. There's more to life.

Success is a good thing, but it should always be held lightly. Like the good book says (speaking of books), there was once a rich farmer who surveyed all he had. He was pleased with his work and thought, I'll build some barns and store my goods and I shall be even richer. And then God said, that night, "Fool, your life is now required of you."

Celebrate whatever you want, but hold it lightly.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> If I had any books, I am sure they'd do poorly


Are you afraid to try?


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## Darren Kirby (Oct 6, 2014)

I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "money isn't everything"?  Such is the case with most writers.  We write because it pleases us, and when we make a sale it pleases us.  Think about this for a minute:  you write something, edit it, get a nice cover, etc., and someone else in the world looks at the cover, reads the description, even looks at the preview, and decides that what you've written is worthy enough for them to part with their hard-earned dollars.  That's pretty friggin' incredible to me that you wrote something that someone else is willing to plunk down good money for!

Yes, it's a different mindset, but it's one that keeps things realistic.  Every time that I see one of my books sold, I just get so happy about it because that means someone thinks enough of what I wrote to give me money.  Don't get me wrong, earning lots of money with my writing would be awesome, but like Elizabeth Ann West mentioned, you have to start somewhere, and that first sale is where you start.


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## Censored (Oct 31, 2014)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I think it's more an inability to relate to the train of thought "I sold 23 copies of my book ==>I feel great". ... But I just don't understand how their minds re-frame this as cause for happiness.


Because before they published and sold 23 copies, they were selling 0 copies. Because 23 copies represents 23 copies closer to Arbitrary Amount X that you or they define as Success. Or because they understand the power of a positive outlook paired with realistic expectations, especially in an artistic endeavor. Some combination along those lines.

If you will be depressed enough to throw yourself off a bridge when you inevitably fail to achieve what you want right out of the gate, I would suggest a different line of work at a minimum...


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

Monique said:


> Are you afraid to try?


Hell yeah. 

I don't have any life stories that are worth telling, not to mention, I have no talents as a writer.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> Hell yeah.
> 
> I don't have any life stories that are worth telling, not to mention, I have no talents as a writer.


Completely honest question then, why are you here? You have every right to be, of course, but I'm curiuous. Why are you here?


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

Monique said:


> Completely honest question then, why are you here? You have every right to be, of course, but I'm curiuous. Why are you here?


To absorb that special ambiance that comes from interacting with people smarter than me.

Originally, I was here because some of the books in people's signatures looked interesting (I don't search on Amazon by category, so I saw some things that I wouldn't otherwise, and bought them)


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

New author,  no one knows me.  I would be celebrating single digits because it would mean someone took a chance on my book.  That would be my definition of success.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> New author, no one knows me. I would be celebrating single digits because it would mean someone took a chance on my book. That would be my definition of success.


This, or even an old author who got chewed up and spit out of the trad pub world, or a writer who rode the query go round and got no traction but found new opportunities with indie publishing.

Here's a whole giant thread of success stories, with a wide range of levels of success: http://www.thepassivevoice.com/08/2014/indie-authors-quitting-their-day-jobs-redux/


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## Allyson J. (Nov 26, 2014)

I can only echo all the previous replies--EVERY copy sold is a cause for celebration. One more pair of eyes on the work, one more potential fan that will tell their friends who might read it. Etc. Etc. 

Readership is a beautiful thing


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## George Applegate (Jan 23, 2013)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I put my heart and soul into it, make it as perfect as I can, tell a story that people should want read, and... the world just shrugs.


But the world didn't shrug; it doesn't know the book exists. It's like that 132 year old Winchester they just found leaning against a tree in the desert. Just because it's "out there" doesn't mean that anyone in your target audience has seen it yet.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm with you Olivia, I throw a damn party when I finish a book, and I work hard to finish a book every month or so.  I like to party.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I am in somewhat awe of those that finish books.


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## EmmaS (Jul 15, 2014)

Because prawny sales are freaking awesome.

I'll write whether or not anyone ever buys my stories. I like writing. It's fun. It gives me a way to blow off steam and explore ideas.

And then I sell a couple books and $5 lands in my lap? For something I'd do anyway?

Like... Why would I _not _be thrilled by that?


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## 75910 (Mar 16, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I'm with you Olivia, I throw a damn party when I finish a book, and I work hard to finish a book every month or so.  I like to party.


Me too.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

I'd be upset, maybe a little, but that's because I may get dumped by my publisher.

That being said, my actual novels have done well.

However, I wrote a short story. I put a lot into it. It's my only self published work. It had made pocket change, at best. Every couple of months I run it for free and give away a couple hundred copies. I'm okay with that. The idea that SOME people want to read it is enough for me.

Just writing a novel is an accomplishment that people have every right to be proud of. Everyone I know with a passion for writing doesn't do it with the intent of selling a million copies. They do it because it's something they love to do. Complete strangers spending money on it, taking the time to read it and leave feedback, no matter how few there may be, is just a bonus. Despite past success, I have no expectation of future success. I write because I love to write. If a few people buy and read my book, yeah, I'm a happy camper.


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## SmallTownGirl (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm new to this forum, but here are my ideas in response to the topic starter. 

You have to start somewhere. Most people aren't overnight successes. It often is a snowball effect where each successive books help previous ones sell more and help grow your fan base. You have to keep this in mind as you continue to write. You also get better as you write more and more. 

If you have sky high expectations then you are bound to be disappointed. Some people who are successful writers are often people who can't help but not write. They need to tell the stories they have in their heads and they have the fortitude to finish the books they start. They write even when they aren't making much money because they love it : D. 

If you chase only money then chances are you will quit when it doesn't show up right away. Persistence is key!


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> But how do writers stay positive?


We don't. Same as stand up comedians. It's a job, a skill, a craft, and you also have to have a little talent and also be a little lucky. Look, just for example, at the life of Mitch Headberg. Work the circuit, put in the time, get the gigs, sweat for it, get some sales, deal with the hecklers, learn from them as well as from the praise. It's work. It's hard work. Of course writers get down, disillusioned, depressed, despondent, mostly things beginning with 'D'. Just like stand up, we stand up, dust off, do more work, get better, learn the audience, find your audience. Keep going. Then, maybe, like my comedian example, Mitch... well, sometimes that happens. Sometimes other things. Maybe it's only the heirs and assigns who benefit - plenty of examples of that if you look around. Or maybe a long and fun for everyone career doing something you love. That sounds worth aiming for, doesn't it?

But this all applies to everyone, doesn't it? If life was easy everyone would do it (I once had soemone say that phrase made no sense and I eye-rolled til I though my eyeballs would fall out, but never mind). Why does anyone do anything? Why get out of bed in the morning? Why? Because we are motivated, of course. What motivates writers to put up with all the c*rap and keep driving forward... that's the question. Answer is, darned if I know. Just got to, I guess.


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## Midnight Whimsy (Jun 25, 2013)

I think I sort of get what the OP is getting at... maybe.

From an outside perspective, it can be a little baffling to see, "I sold 23 copies, hooray!" because you may be adding onto that exclamation of happiness: "I sold 23 copies, hooray! _I am utterly satisfied with this and will aim no higher._" The second part, that assumption, is what's off.

I celebrated my first 10 copies. And my first 25. And my first 100. But I didn't think at any point "OK, cool, my goals and aspirations are now fulfilled." I was thinking, "Yay, 25 copies! Now onto 50! *fist pump*" As Elizabeth said, you celebrate each step. Celebrating doesn't mean full stop, done now. 

A little off topic, but OP, I have to say something that's been bugging me... Do you think it might be a little tasteless to use a photo of a fairly recently deceased celebrity as your profile pic? Just sayin'.

M.W


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## Jill Nojack (Mar 7, 2014)

This week I started writing the fourth book in my first series because I met my goal of selling 100 copies of the last one. 100 people liked the second one well enough to continue the series. Crikey!

The silly stuff on the inside of my head entertained 100 total strangers over the past two months! 100!

What's not to be joyful about?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Heck yeah they should celebrate 85 sales. Because you don't ever GET to 10,000 books sold in a month, year or whatever without selling those first 85. Or those first 8. Or that first 1.


This! I'm still trying to recapture the excitement I felt the first time I ever checked my sales and saw I'd sold 9 books. To people I didn't know.


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## Z. Rider (Aug 15, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> This! I'm still trying to recapture the excitement I felt the first time I ever checked my sales and saw I'd sold 9 books. To people I didn't know.


It's like cocaine--you're always chasing that first, perfect high.

(Disclaimer: Or so I hear. I'm too cheap to buy coke.)


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

Midnight Whimsy said:


> I think I sort of get what the OP is getting at... maybe.
> 
> From an outside perspective, it can be a little baffling to see, "I sold 23 copies, hooray!" because you may be adding onto that exclamation of happiness: "I sold 23 copies, hooray! _I am utterly satisfied with this and will aim no higher._" The second part, that assumption, is what's off.
> 
> ...


Something like that, yeah. 

Tasteless to use a photo of a dead celebrity? naaahh...


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I think this is actually a fair question.

I'm a pretty upbeat person and I'm probably one of the people he is talking about. I'm thrilled with my very mediocre success. Sure, I would really like to make a lot more money, but I'm just so happy to be able to write as a part time job that I can fit around my childcare family commitments that the money side of it takes second place to the pleasure of it making _enough_ money that I don't have to go back to an office part time instead.

But yeah, there are down days. And I think that if I was more prone to depression or even to mild negative feelings then this career might have chewed me up and spat me out a while ago. Yes, my first book did only sell about 15 copies until I released my second book, yes, my second book only sold about 85 until I released my third. But then it took off. I don't have "no sales" days any more. My books don't generally pay enough each month to cover our mortgage, but they do pay enough to cover the utility bills.

So yes, as others have said, success is relative. It depends what you want. I know what I want. I want to keep increasing my income at a slightly faster rate in the hope that a year from now my husband can give up his job and I can do it full time and support us.

That's about it really. Maybe a nice holiday once or twice a year. Can I achieve this? I don't see why not. Hence I am happy with meagre sales success


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

I think it's very simple. To have a stranger - someone you don't know, even just one - find one's book worthy of both purchase and spending their precious time on it is just pure awesome.

Even more so if you've managed to entertain them for a few hours.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm one of those happy campers who celebrates 50 books sold in a month. I am also a Black woman who writes books aimed at Black women. I feel my job is done when I log into Goodreads and read a discussion chain between readers about my books. I cheer when a reader who I have never met and never interacted with persuades her friends to try one of my books. Would it be wonderful to have a breakout hit? Sure, but I realize that I would have to target my books toward a different demographic, and quite frankly, I don't have any stories that fit that bill. Currently.

I think it is very narrow-minded that so many people think that we all should be in this for the money or instant success. I think it is offensive to spit in the eye of those of us who found self-publishing as a means to reach under-represented markets.


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

Quick question-- how do I put someone on ignore?


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm going to throw this out there. You know how Betsy and Ann frequently remind us that this is an open forum with many lurkers? They are right. I stumbled across a discussion talking about the 7 Day Erotica Challenge. Numerous posts commented on how offensive it was to see authors brag about writing stories to get readers' money.


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I'm going to through this out there. You know how Betsy and Ann frequently remind us that this is an open forum with many lurkers? They are right. I stumbled across a discussion talking about the 7 Day Erotica Challenge. Numerous posts commented on how offensive it was to see authors brag about writing stories to get readers' money.


And that thread is legendary, and changed author's mindsets about possibilities, including launching many people into self-publishing for the first time. THANK YOU for starting it.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I'm one of those happy campers who celebrates 50 books sold in a month. I am also a Black woman who writes books aimed at Black women. I feel my job is done when I log into Goodreads and read a discussion chain between readers about my books. I cheer when a reader who I have never met and never interacted with persuades her friends to try one of my books. Would it be wonderful to have a breakout hit? Sure, but I realize that I would have to target my books toward a different demographic, and quite frankly, I don't have any stories that fit that bill. Currently.
> 
> I think it is very narrow-minded that so many people think that we all should be in this for the money or instant success. I think it is offensive to spit in the eye of those of us who found self-publishing as a means to reach under-represented markets.


well, FWIW, just for the heck of it, I bought (and read!) a 65 page story on Amazon two days ago in the BWWM subgenre (which I didn't even know existed until then).  Can't say that I am particularly tempted to buy book 2, but let it never be said that I am not trying to expand my horizons.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I'm going to through this out there. You know how Betsy and Ann frequently remind us that this is an open forum with many lurkers? They are right. I stumbled across a discussion talking about the 7 Day Erotica Challenge. Numerous posts commented on how offensive it was to see authors brag about writing stories to get readers' money.


And this is why on some threads, I remind everyone public forum. Your words and mine get around. Generic you not specific you.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Miranda_Dean said:


> Quick question-- how do I put someone on ignore?


Roll over Profile > Select Forum Profile > Roll over Modify Profile > Select Buddies/Ignore List ... > Select Edit Ignore List > Add names to the list

Super handy function that makes kboards a much more pleasant venue.


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## A.E. Williams (Jul 13, 2014)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> Hell yeah.
> 
> I don't have any life stories that are worth telling, not to mention, I have no talents as a writer.


I'd take some minor issue with that second statement, there, bub.

You have managed to whip up quite an entertaining thread! 

Now, go get a tape recorder and speak into it. Listen to yourself, and then,(if you don't WANT to type), get thee to Amazon and buy Dragon Naturally Speaking for whatever computer you own.

If you don't have any aspirations to write, then that's an entirely different matter. You are more than welcome to bask in the accomplishments of others...

I find the best Writers write for an audience of ONE - their own inner Reader.

Everyone else can come along for the ride, but nobody's pointing a gun at their heads to compel them.

Now, that also doesn't mean that there aren't successful writers who seek a greater audience, but, when that mythical horde of ravenous reading groupies fails to manifest, then disappointment may be the order of the day. If you seek to avoid that inevitable depressing situation, you take what may come, and savor it.

One must keep oneself a bit humble and appreciate those little victories. ( You all know in my case that is a very VERY small bit, indeed!  )

A.E. Williams


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

Olivia Jaymes said:


> And I still get a rush every time I finish a book.


I'm just the opposite. I get very depressed for a few days after I finish a book. I'm talking about finish as in written, edited, and published. In the final few weeks, the book consumes most of my time, thought processes, and energy as I strive to make it as perfect as I can before I foist it upon an unsuspecting world. Then-- it's gone. It's done, It's finished. The reading public has it, and I feel totally lost for a few days. But then I start on a new book, or focus on one of the books I have in progress, and once again I get lost in the writing process for a few months. That's where I get _my_ rush. Writing is like a narcotic, and I'm addicted. I have to do it, even if I never sell a single book. Of course, selling books allows me to enjoy my habit full time, so it's become important in that regard. If people are writing books _just_ to make money, I can understand them being depressed when sales lag. I also understand if slow sales means authors have to return to a 9 to 5. Anything that takes me away from writing is BAD.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Ugh. Y'all are quoting me and I have a ton of misused words and stuff. I have the flu, so I won't take responsibility for my errors.


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## A.E. Williams (Jul 13, 2014)

scribblr said:


> Anything that takes me away from writing is BAD.


EXCEPT drinking and fornicating...let's be real here.

A.E. Williams


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Man, to get people to read your work is a rush. I sometimes lose sight of that, when I'm slumping (like now). So, yeah, having 500 sales or whatever is an achievement. Finishing a book is an achievement. Being courageous enough to put it up for sale, where it might be ridiculed (and usually is by at least 10% of the people) is an achievement. 

While I know that it can be discouraging to have underperforming books or whatever, it is important not to lose sight that, if there are 10,000 sales or 10 sales, the important thing is that people are reading our work.


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

Jim Johnson said:


> Roll over Profile > Select Forum Profile > Roll over Modify Profile > Select Buddies/Ignore List ... > Select Edit Ignore List > Add names to the list
> 
> Super handy function that makes kboards a much more pleasant venue.


Thank you, Jim.


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## Indiecognito (May 19, 2014)

I can believe that this is a genuine question by the OP, but 500 books should count as an achievement for anyone.

I have a friend who was happy to sell 100 books last year. I've never had the heart to tell him that if I sell far more in a day. The thing is that we aren't hard-wired to feel happy with a given number; we're hard-wired to receive endorphin rushes from progress. So if you sell 500 a day for a while then sales fade, it hurts. But if you sell 3 a day then a year later, 10 a day, you've progressed. It feels good. And hell, 10 people a day reading your work? Amazing! Strangers taking in your words. Think of it.

Numbers are meaningless after a while. Money is nice. But I guarantee that when someone finds themselves making $100,000 a year from writing they'll look to the next level rather than sit tight and hope it just chugs along. We like progress. We like achievements. Improvements. We like_ succeeding._


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

The british library just sent me a letter requesting archive copies of my first book. It might not have sold a gajillion copies and made a load of bank from KU borrows but the fact my book will be added to our literary archive makes me feel i've left something behind for my time on the planet, and long after amazon has been bankrupted by using haribo golden bears as a loss leader, long after money has become redundant, my little book will be sat gathering dust in an archive so one day intelligent alien life-forms can assimilate it and add "cake and arse party" to their understanding of 21st century linguistics.

So no, don't care about the monies. I'm doing this gig so aliens can learn the appropriate way to address each other after rediscovering the lost recipe for Stella Artois.


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## Claire Frank (Jul 28, 2014)

It's a little hard to tell if the OP meant to say: "holy crap, y'all with your sh*t sales numbers should just freaking quit already, because oh my word, it must suck to be you." But maybe it's more "wow, I'm impressed because I don't think I could do what you do and have the patience to build a career over the long haul because I would die if I didn't get immediate results."

I'll go with the latter because I'm an optimist like that. If that's the case, don't be a writer, because that bridge is going to look awfully tempting. And we don't want that. 

Why do people get excited over low sales? 

Because we all start at the beginning. 
Because we love to write and we love our readers and EVERY single reader is something to celebrate.
Because we hear things like, "You better be writing the next book!" and "You kept me up all night reading!" and there's no amount of money in the world that compares to the awesomeness of knowing you told a great story that people loved to read.
Because we finished, accomplished a goal that may have been long standing, and put our work out there for the world.
Because one of the reasons many of us chose to publish our own work is so our books aren't dead in the water if they don't have good sales in the first three weeks. We recognize that for most of us, this is a long game. We may have a sad looking sales dashboard today, but there's no telling what it will look like next month or next year.
Because maybe we're a little nutty. At least I am. I'm okay with it.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

When X-men first came out, the series sold so poorly that it was constantly on the bubble for being canceled. Then it was cancelled. Years later, someone when back and read the old books and realized that there was something of value there that was just a bit ahead of its time, so they re-released.

Meanwhile, when Spider-Man first debuted in Amazing Fantasy #15, he was instantly popular and became a flagship character overnight.

Today, X-men holds the record for the best-selling single issue of a comic book ever (Jim Lee's X-Men #1), and their movies consistently beat Spidey's left right an center despite both suffering from the same attention-span-of-a-boll-weevil editorial staff.

My point is, do you think Marvel cares now that X-Men wasn't an instant slam dunk? Would they have been better off being all drag-ass and abandoning the franchise forever?


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## Indiecognito (May 19, 2014)

B&H, I went looking for a Like button for your post. 

Congratulations!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

scribblr said:


> Anything that takes me away from writing is BAD.





A.E. Williams said:


> EXCEPT drinking and fornicating...let's be real here.


If you were truly optimising your workflow you'd be able to do all three at once.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

True story, haribo gold bears are DELICIOUS soaked in vodka for a few hours. . .


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## frigatebird (Jan 21, 2015)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I mean, if I wrote a book (let's say, it was the Danny McRay Vietnam sniper book, or the Asian Ms. IT romance book, or even the modern romance with Mr. Dark Secret/Mr. Stalker/Mr. Another Guy), put it up on Amazon, and it sold only 500 copies... I'd go and jump off a bridge, for chrissakes.


If you only sold 500 copies...by when?

Like others have said -- you can feel accomplished by your progress while simultaneously vowing to build more. And sometimes also while simultaneously being disappointed with where you are. Building sales is hard work, so you can see and be proud of what you've done while still knowing it's not where you want to be.

I've sold more than 500 books *now,* but I hadn't on the first day, or the first week, or the first month. I think pitching myself off a bridge probably would have been the wrong reaction to that. Instead I published more books and tried to engage in smart business -- because unless you're very, very lucky, that's how you *get* to higher levels of sales. And yeah, I've been proud of my successes at every step, while also sometimes being frustrated and disappointed that they weren't more, and I'm sure that will continue no matter how many books I'm selling.

Thinking that everyone who posts a positive thread is just gosh-darn delighted by selling 5 books over all time is overly simplistic. Because, people. Complicated. Capable of much nuance.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> True story, haribo gold bears are DELICIOUS soaked in vodka for a few hours. . .


Just make sure they are not the sugarless Haribo Gummi bears.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

a reminder (or perhaps notice for the newer folk) that "troll" is considered a four letter word here on KBoards.  Don't use it.

It's a question.  Either answer it in good faith, as some have done, or don't answer if you don't think it's a valid question.

DoG, my feeling is that people are excited that someone other than family or friends want to read something they've written.  I get that as someone who has put art out there.  It's exciting.

Betsy


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## NotHere (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm happy for any sales I can get. Not so much for the money (though that's nice too), but just someone having a smile (or a cry) on their face of appreciation means the world to me.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

frigatebird said:


> If you only sold 500 copies...by when?


I guess within the first month... 500 sold over 25 years of writing publishing just doesn't strike me as a reason to dance on the table. 500 over the first week - yeah, I guess that would be a reason.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

Claire Frank said:


> It's a little hard to tell if the OP meant to say: "holy crap, y'all with your sh*t sales numbers should just freaking quit already, because oh my word, it must suck to be you." *But maybe it's more "wow, I'm impressed because I don't think I could do what you do and have the patience to build a career over the long haul because I would die if I didn't get immediate results."
> *
> I'll go with the latter because I'm an optimist like that. If that's the case, don't be a writer, because that bridge is going to look awfully tempting. And we don't want that.
> 
> ...


it's the bold part. 

and how people manage to stay optimistic over the long haul.


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## BatCauldron (Oct 2, 2013)

I'm going to go ahead and paraphrase myself (I usually find I'm well worth quoting) from a post I wrote in the comments of a blog post by an author marginally more successful than I am.

The thing is, you can't understand why these people are chuffed with their book's performance because you have _no idea_ what their expectations and targets were. Everything is relative. If I set out with a target of 50 books in a month and I sell 85, of course I will be happy. I've blown my target into tiny pieces and then I've trampled those pieces into dust and then I've swept the dust up because I was at my mum's house and she'd literally _only just_ cleaned that floor.

Now, I can only speak for myself, here, but I would suspect that a lot of people probably went through a similar thought-process to me prior to hitting publish. Me, I had a little word with myself about what I actually expected to get out of this venture, thinking about my worst-case scenario, my worst-acceptable scenario, my realistic target, and my 'stretch' (sorry for the business [bullcrap], but my day job sometimes rubs off on me) target.

*Worst-case scenario* - I sell nothing, my car gets written off, I get bitten by a dog, the dog had rabies, people start calling me 'Foamy McRabies', my house bursts into flames, and I find myself on a long-haul flight seated between David Cameron on my left and another David Cameron on my right.

*Worst-acceptable scenario* - I looked into what the UK average sales per trade-pubbed title was. The most recent number I could find was 18 (eighteen) ((EIGHTEEN)) (((!!!))). That number may have increased slightly, but I'm going to wager it's not by ever so much. Even if I double it, that's still a bloody low number, so let's go with that. 36. Sod it, let's round up. 40. Anything less than 40 units sold would be a disappointment to me.

*My realistic target* - this one I won't put here, as it's entirely personal. I'm not there yet, but I have reason to believe I will be. And much sooner than I thought, too.

*My stretch target* - I whacked 50% on top of my realistic target.

So, when I sit and say to myself, "You're doing okay, old boy," know that it is relative to _my_ targets and _my_ expectations which have been set realistically based on the research that I've done, my own knowledge of the market and my target demographic, and also a little bit on my sucking my finger and holding it aloft to see which way the wind is blowing.

But also know that we celebrate more than just the number of sales. Some things aren't as easily quantifiable. I take way more satisfaction from the sale of a paperback than I do an eBook, in spite of the fact that I get less than a quarter of the royalties. Because I think the print edition is very easy on the eyes and I spent a lot of time on the formatting. I want it 'out there' in the world. The satisfaction I get when I receive a message from a reader is worth more even than that.

*Edit: *Removed my last line as it read a little more aggressive than I had intended.


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## jillb (Oct 4, 2014)

I think it all boils down to expectations and perceptive. Before indie publishing, I never dreamed of publishing a single book and having it read let alone 6 so far. 
Sure, it'll be awesome to make $100,000+ /year selling books but one has to be realistic as well. Firstly, in my case, my books are niche NF. The chances of me selling a zillion books is not likely. Secondly, a lot of the successful authors work very hard, often more than full-time hours, everyday, with no distractions. Hard work doesn't guarantee success but it helps your odds. Since I have other commitments like 2 toddlers etc, being able to write on the side to produce another income stream, at home, on my own time with almost no financial investment is something to be grateful for. 

My sales have increased from $3 to almost $200 in 3 months. To me, that's awesome. If it continues or steadies, that's awesome, if it tapers off and drops with just an occasional sale, that's fine too because each additional sale is PASSIVE INCOME with NO RISK.

No, I don't put my heart and soul into my books but I do try to put good books out, books that may help my readers. So yes, every sale, every milestone is celebrated. A place like this, where other indie authors hang out is a wonderful place to cheer each other on.


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## A.E. Williams (Jul 13, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> If you were truly optimising your workflow you'd be able to do all three at once.


Well, that's part of the ADVANCED writing class, don't you think?

Not sure forum decorum wouldn't be severely breached if we examined that subject in the detail it rightfully deserves.

Suffice it to say, that Oscar Wilde said it best...

But PJ O'Rourke wrote about it best .... "How to Drive Fast on Drugs While Getting Your Wing-Wang Squeezed and Not Spill Your Drink"

That's the ACTUAL TITLE, and since we can't link here, -- Google it.

A.E. Williams


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

A.E. Williams said:


> I'd take some minor issue with that second statement, there, bub.
> 
> You have managed to whip up quite an entertaining thread!
> 
> ...


I have a dictaphone, use it semi-regularly. Though I suspect my secretary, to whom I email the .wav files, would be a bit ... surprised if she started transcribing and realized she is transcribing a novel about Sniper Danny McRay's adventures in a Bangkok whorehouse, instead of the usual stuff.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Midnight Whimsy said:


> A little off topic, but OP, I have to say something that's been bugging me... Do you think it might be a little tasteless to use a photo of a fairly recently deceased celebrity as your profile pic? Just sayin'.


I have to say, though DoG has already answered, that I don't see a problem with it, myself. I assumed it to be a kind of tribute (though I have no idea why DoG chose Paul Walker). I do know that my co-mod and kind-of-co-founder-of-KBoards-with-Harvey used a pic of Heath Ledger as her avatar as a tribute for quite some time after his death.

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

A.E. Williams said:


> Well, that's part of the ADVANCED writing class, don't you think?
> 
> Not sure forum decorum wouldn't be severely breached if we examined that subject in the detail it rightfully deserves.


Um, yes....


Betsy


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

BatCauldron said:


> TLR: Why are you even worrying about how people who are not you feel about the success of books that are not yours?


just curious about the mindset of real writers.


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## BatCauldron (Oct 2, 2013)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> just curious about the mindset of real writers.


Heh, you caught it before I removed that line. Fair enough


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## Z. Rider (Aug 15, 2014)

jillb said:


> each additional sale is PASSIVE INCOME with NO RISK.


Such a good point. Once you break even, every copy sold is pure profit that you don't have to do any work for. (You can, of course, do work/make investments to try to make more sales off existing books--promos and all that--but in a vacuum where you don't spend another penny or moment of your time on a book, every sale is like getting paid to sit on the couch.)


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I have to say, though DoG has already answered, that I don't see a problem with it, myself. I assumed it to be a kind of tribute (though I have no idea why DoG chose Paul Walker). I do know that my co-mod and kind-of-co-founder-of-KBoards-with-Harvey used a pic of Heath Ledger as her avatar as a tribute for quite some time after his death.
> 
> Betsy


Personally if he had to pick one of the fast and furious guys, I would have preferred a topless Vin Diesel. Just my opinion.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I have to say, though DoG has already answered, that I don't see a problem with it, myself. I assumed it to be a kind of tribute (though I have no idea why DoG chose Paul Walker). I do know that my co-mod and kind-of-co-founder-of-KBoards-with-Harvey used a pic of Heath Ledger as her avatar as a tribute for quite some time after his death.
> 
> Betsy


As William Shatner once said very perceptively in _Airplane II_ - irony can be pretty ironic sometimes. The way I see it - it it's your time to go, you might as well go while going 150 mph in a Porsche. So Paul Walker (who, by all accounts, was a pretty decent fellow) is a good illustration of that principle. One can think of the avatar as an homage to the principle embodied by Walker.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

Indiecognito said:


> B&H, I went looking for a Like button for your post.
> 
> Congratulations!


Thanks so much.

I don't know it means that much other than It's a nice taxpayer funded insurance policy to know they are keeping copies in case i get drunk on vodka soaked gummi bears and burn all my own copies in a fit of artistic-fuelled rage.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Personally if he had to pick one of the fast and furious guys, I would have preferred a topless Vin Diesel. Just my opinion.












You're welcome.


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> ...and how people manage to stay optimistic over the long haul.


I spent seven years sending out query letters and manuscripts to agents and publishers. And than I gave up. I never stopped writing-- I just stopped trying to get published. That was in 2007-- before the self-publishing revolution started. There was never any question of whether I would stop writing, only if I would ever get a trad deal. I had hoped to earn a living from my writing, and I really thought that dream was dead. So I applied myself to the old 9 to 5 and kept writing at night and on weekends, without ever having any hope that I would see my name on a book in a bookstore.


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## Amity Lassiter (Nov 28, 2014)

I had, literally, NO expectations walking into this. Why would anyone buy my book? And then all of a sudden, I get cheques in the mail. Maybe they can buy coffee or maybe they can make my car payment. But I'm being paid actual money for my stories, and that's a big deal, from someone who spent agonizing years on the query-go-round.

Every time I get a cheque or hit a sales milestone (small as they may be!), I feel like looking for the guy behind the curtain that's going to say "Hahahaha just kidding, you're not an author!" and pull the author rug out from under my feet, but it just doesn't happen. And that's totally worth it.

I actually get more excited these days about newsletter sign ups (from the CTA in the back of my book) or new members in my reader group than sales. Because that is not just someone who was interested in your book, that's someone who is interested in your career. And that is worth way more than the couple bucks I get from them buying my book.


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## A.E. Williams (Jul 13, 2014)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> You're welcome.


We are Groot!

Groot


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Personally if he had to pick one of the fast and furious guys, I would have preferred a topless Vin Diesel. Just my opinion.


Me too. Totally serious. I started lifting about the time the first one came out and his physique was my ultimate goal. I am a totally straight male, but Vin Diesel cuts an impressive form.


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## Karen Mead (Jul 2, 2012)

Considering I have the kind of sales right now that the OP is talking about-- enough that there are readers actively following my stuff, but not enough to make much of an impact financially-- I suggest purchasing and reading all of my books, to get to know the mindset of an author in just such a situation.

Furthermore, it's a good idea to encourage all of your friends and family members to purchase and read my books too; that way, you can all have an in-depth, roundtable discussion, sharing the insight you've gleaned from reading between the lines of my labors of love to speculate about what mysterious factors could possibly motivate me. In fact, the more people you get to buy read my books and join in the discussion, the closer you will be to truly understanding the mind of the author continually treading water in this dark, dank, existential morass.


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## daffodils321 (Oct 31, 2014)

Just from hearing other authors experience, I don't think it's very realistic to sell 500 books your first time out. Maybe over time but not in the first few months. That's something you work up to. And first or even second, third books don't typically sell well without a planned launch. Besides, failed books can be a great learning experience


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Sheet, I was doing a freakin' happy dance the first time I sold a book to someone who didn't know me. Like, a total stranger bought my stuff and read it.

That was really cool. I felt very successful. Then I focused on my next goal, which was getting ONE total stranger to actually LIKE my first book.<shrug>


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I had a business selling non-fiction academic books. I started selling online one year before Amazon existed, and oh may, it was a gold rush. I bought books in bulk, I sent mass emails to my mailing lists. I bought libraries from deceased estates. I've been known to fly to New Zealand, buy books in an auction, and recover the cost from the trip with the sale of a single book the day after I got back.

Them were the days. Then Amazon got big enough to be noticed, and ABE started and all the other guys, and they started listing books that I also sold (because at first they didn't. They were very specialised books). I was a one-woman operation. I didn't want to do the office/warehouse/staff thing because I'd been made redundant from an office job and had decided that office BS and me are not a happy combination.

I was still importing lots of books and sending them to customers. But gradually stuff was eating into my margin. You can't compete against Amazon and the Book Depository. They have deals with postage delivery companies that I could never repeat, and, living in Australia, postage was really expensive anyway. I never officially closed my business, but I'm still selling off stock and not buying new stock. I can see the wall in my hallway again.

The point of this story is that I got a six-figure income stream, and on the outgoing a huge cost in postage and importing new stock. I never made a loss, but I didn't make a massive profit either. My house was full of boxes. I used to break my back every day hauling books to the post office.

Right now, I do none of that. NO STOCK! That's just the most amazing thing ever. I can write anywhere in the world. I'm at the mid-hundreds of copies per month level. I make more, net, than I ever made hauling books. Of course I'm happy even though I don't sell thousands.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

It's a pretty big deal to jump from "I write because I love it and maybe someday someone will want to read it with more than a 'that's nice dear' comment" to "People are paying money to read my work."

Srsly my first self-pubbed story in this name sold four copies the first day (I think one got returned) but it made me walk around in a daze, I was so happy and awed.  It was a huge step forward for me.  Not the last one, maybe, but a big step.


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## Mike Essex (Mar 9, 2014)

It's all about perception. 85 isn't a high number as a statistic but the idea that 85 individual people bought the first book and loved it enough to buy the sequel, that's pretty damn encouraging especially if you're new to writing like I am.


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## Midnight Whimsy (Jun 25, 2013)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> As William Shatner once said very perceptively in _Airplane II_ - irony can be pretty ironic sometimes. The way I see it - it it's your time to go, you might as well go while going 150 mph in a Porsche. So Paul Walker (who, by all accounts, was a pretty decent fellow) is a good illustration of that principle. One can think of the avatar as an homage to the principle embodied by Walker.


That's actually pretty cool, and I retract my tasteless comment. I was thinking, rather uncharitably, that you randomly picked a handsome dude so we'd all think you're a hottie.  But I see not! Though, I have to agree with Cin -- some Vin Diesel abs would have my attention in a blink. 

M.W


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## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

I've been at this since 2007. I have three self-published books in another genre, and decided to try romance writing 1 1/2 years ago. Now, I've almost finished a novelette series, and I'm working on several other projects. Self-publishing has helped feed my need for writing and improve it at the same time. Whether something takes off and becomes a number 1 seller, I'll never know. So I take solace in the fact I can buy a cup of coffee or a nice dinner(Prawny-level sales) with my royalties. I have a fan following and mailing list of fans that keep me going. I won't be a top seller unless I write. And the fact I keep at all this inspite of low sales, makes all the difference. You got to finish and get the book out there before anyone will buy it. My best seller might just be around the corner, or could catch on by some awesome trend, mention. You just never know what can happen, but it won't unless you write the book first.


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## GTC (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm by no means a bestseller, but my smut-sales paid the professional fees for my super straightlaced day job - we all need our own reasons to keep smiling


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

As someone who has had both huge success and early days of low sales, I can say that there is something so fantastic about the early days before you sell a whackload. Back then, I watched daily for any sales and squeed over each one, and beamed over each new review, and was very happy to pocket the money I earned and buy lunch for the family or pay a bill. 

I can say that for me, the real pleasure is in the writing and then in having finished a book. Selling them is the next logical thing and when you do, it's like a circle has been completed. It's an accomplishment. It's being creative and having others respond to what you have created. Many people talk about writing, but far fewer actually finish a book. It's amazing. Then to get it ready for publishing, cover art, editing, etc. and then to actually sell copies? Even 10? To total strangers who aren't your mom and sister and cousin? 10 books, 75, 100 -- even small sales feel FANTASTIC! Most writers I know HAVE to write. We can't stop. It's like breathing. When other people choose to buy and read your books, even if the numbers are low? It's like a drug. Now that I sell higher numbers and make my living off it, the pleasure when seeing my numbers is different. It's not the same as when I started. Don't get me wrong -- it's still FANTASTIC! It's fantastic to write fiction for a living. But those first sales, even when small, feel sooooo good.  Being able to make a living off writing is pure gravy.


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I have a question for everyone who is NOT selling 10000 copies a month.
> 
> I read some of the authors here on this forum, who come out with their first book, and it sells 30 copies in month 1, 15 in month 2, 4 copies in month 3. They then come out with book 2, and it sells 85 copies total.
> 
> ...


The non-best-selling authors are the ones with the least to lose and the most to gain (hope springs eternal!), hence the inner contentment. The best-sellers are the angst-ridden discontents with the most to lose. They don't all whine about falling sales; some can be laid back about it and see it as a challenge to reinvent themselves. The whiners receive nor deserve any sympathy.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Everybody's different. I am a for-the-money writer (or anything else - if it's work, I want to be compensated for it), and I started in early 2010. At that time the only royalty rate Amazon offered was 35%, and I priced my first book at $1.99. So when it sold 182 copies in the first month, all I could think was _what if I had four like that?_ I'm retired and at the time calculated I needed $600 a month in supplemental income to meet expenses. Since at the time I had no expectation of the book selling anything, those sales were encouraging, not discouraging. I admit, though, that there would be a point at which I'd decide to put my effort somewhere else, but it wouldn't have come in the first year or two so long as there were sales at all.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

There is no cup of coffee sweeter to drink than the one you bought with the little royalty check you got for selling 5 copies.


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## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

For me, it's the love of writing, having the opportunity to get better at it through practice, and all the fantastic experiences I've had along the way. Here are a few of the experiences that have kept me going .... Piers Anthony read my children's book, *The Fisherman's Son*, liked it a lot and gave me a review quote for it, after which we corresponded for a while about politics and other things through email. I've been interviewed and had short stories featured on the personal literary blog of Literary Agent Sarah LaPolla. I've been interviewed on radio shows throughout the United States and Canada about my children's books and the topic of childhood stress with my background as a psychologist. I've edited a few books written by people in Hollywood and have been invited to submit some of my short stories for TV show pilots. I even got referred to a top Hollywood agent who works with people by referral only, he read everything I wrote and enjoyed it, and he invited me to continue submitting my future work. And I've won a lot of awards. Does that translate into sales? Only once in a while. Writing is a tough business. To make big sales, you have to have the right book at the right time with the right amount of advertising. I think people who love writing are driven to it, no matter what the outcome.


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

I'll tell you what's depressing. I went the traditional route for quite a few years. A lot of years, actually. I got an agent. That one didn't work out. I got another agent, who was absolutely wonderful and at a top agency. She shopped several of my books and even got me to some acquisitions meetings (my hopes would absolutely skyrocket when that happened), only to be turned down by marketing. We finally got an R&R request from HC, and I worked on that thing for months. When I sent it back to my agent? I got dropped.

Now, I have two of those books that didn't make it up for pre-order, and I have one (JUST ONE) person who has pre-ordered my book. And I have to tell you that after the horrible roller coaster I went through, it's the greatest feeling in the world to know that someone out there in internet land wants to read something I wrote.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Well, it's certainly interesting to get everyone's point of view.  Thanks to all who replied.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

This has actually turned out to be a pretty nice thread. I've enjoyed reading it.


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## NB (Jan 14, 2015)

I am new at this. New to the KB forum and new to indie publishing.

I self-published my first novella in December and have sold 3. It was my wife who helped me see that for what it was. She pointed out that, of a million unknown authors, people on the other side of the world had taken the time to read my work. No name recognition or marketing. But they thought it was worth their time. I'm still both hoping for and dreading my first review.

Whatever. My intent is to savor this first step, like the ratcheting climb at the start of a roller coaster.

Big or small, numbers can drive you mad, or ruin the enjoyment. Of all the successful people I have known, the most inspiring have continued to do what they love regardless of the numbers.

NB


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## chele (Jun 5, 2013)

Success is a funny thing. Goals are funny things. 

I could have the goal to sell 10,000 books a month, but I would consider myself unsuccessful for a long time. It'd be like having the goal of winning a marathon. You don't join the marathon on your first time out running. You train, you slowly build your endurance and speed. Yes, the overall goal might still to be to win the marathon, but in order to keep morale, you set yourself lots of little goals that you can achieve along the way.

The same is true of selling books. Instead of feeling depressed that I'm not yet selling 10,000 a month, I choose to set myself smaller goals that are achievable. Once I get there, I take the next step up and aim for that next one.

No, I'm not currently at 10,000 copies a month. Generally, I don't hit 100 in a month and some months I don't hit 10 sales. 
My current aim is 50 a month over my 3 books, so that whether they sell all in one go, or they sell in dribs and drabs, overall I am selling more than a book a day. 

Once I am getting there, I'll aim for the next target, feeling damn good that I've succeeded in my current one.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

You should be internally validated.

Extrinsic validation is meaningless.

Write what you love. If you write what you truly want to write and what you're capable of, then the extrinisic rewards will follow.

*******
Focus on all the things you control i.e.

quality of book
the right topic (for yourself)
marketing to people

Forget about extrinsic things like sales.

*******
In another post you intimated that financially you're quite set.
Then you should treasure the opportunity to do whatever really is in your heart, without worrying about external validation.


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## Christine Tate (Feb 24, 2014)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I think it's more an inability to relate to the train of thought "I sold 23 copies of my book ==>I feel great". Maybe it's some mental block in my head. I mean, I can see - 5000 copies a month, OK. But I get some kind of cognitive dissonance when I see happy posts.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - it's kind of nice to read somebody writing things like that. But I just don't understand how their minds re-frame this as cause for happiness.


Everything is relative. I think as long as writers see progress they find joy in it. When someone publishes their first book, that first sale is a real rush and very exciting, even if they only sell one book. As time goes on, writers change their focus to look for progress. Now they want to see a few more sell. Then, when they hit a new milestone of, say, 10 books it's a new achievement to celebrate. Writing isn't about the destination. Like everything in life it's about the journey and finding joy along the way as you go.


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## sngraves (Aug 10, 2014)

My only goal is to make enough to pay my bills. If I can cover power, food, medical, and a few incidentals, I'm golden. It helps that I live in a swamp like Shrek and therefore have few real bills. :/


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

Every sell counts. I went full-time faster than most, but I still value every sale.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

I think the problem is the OP is approaching this from the perspective of a person who assumes mega sales are actually the norm and that sales volume is the norm. Neither has EVER been true in publishing. The Pattersons and Kings of the world have always been rare. There is a reason most authors have always had the proverbial "day job." Statistically, very few writers make a full time living from just writing. 

If you look back over the last twenty years of data available through places like Bookscan and others, the average book sells under 5000 copies IN ITS LIFETIME. Forget the million sellers. Forget the big advances. In the real world, on average across all genres, the average book sells under 5000 copies in its lifetime. Some genres with voracious readerships, if averaged by themselves, would reflect higher averages. But some genres, with small, niche audiences, would reflect lower averages. The reality has always been that book sales are not nearly as high as the average person would believe, because the average person is only looking at the bestseller list. 

In the greater publishing world, it is perfectly normal for a magazine to have a circulation of less that 500. I've published in literary journals that had circulations of around 300...of course, those subscribers were libraries, not retail customers. 

Perspective is always a wonderful thing. I have some titles with over 10,000 sales. I have others that never broke 500. I'm proud of every one of them, because each title serves a unique market and made those readers happy.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

While there is always the dream of publishing a story that becomes so beloved that its sales fund a mansion and a private island and people create national conventions to dress up like characters you created... not many people get a shot at that lightning strike. 

Most musicians I know are happy to have a local following that shows up when they play a club. My brother's art may never hang in the Met, but he sold a few pieces at a local show and was thrilled. My friend just finished performing in a local run of Jesus Christ Superstar that got rave reviews.  

Should these people be moaning the fact that the world doesn't appreciate them? 

Those of us who strive to entertain get such a thrill when someone enjoys our efforts.  Would it be awesome if millions did?  Sure!  But there's nothing like the people who are first to believe in you, solely based on something you produced.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think the problem is the OP is approaching this from the perspective of a person who assumes mega sales are actually the norm and that sales volume is the norm. Neither has EVER been true in publishing. The Pattersons and Kings of the world have always been rare. There is a reason most authors have always had the proverbial "day job." Statistically, very few writers make a full time living from just writing.
> 
> If you look back over the last twenty years of data available through places like Bookscan and others, the average book sells under 5000 copies IN ITS LIFETIME. Forget the million sellers. Forget the big advances. In the real world, on average across all genres, the average book sells under 5000 copies in its lifetime.


My thought, too. I've been at the writing game for awhile and have known many mid-list writers. I've known only one who made enough money to quit the day job--and probably wouldn't have, had a spouse not been there as a back-up with medical insurance from a straight job.

The reality for poets is, of course, even worse. You gotta be writing poetry for love, because you're never going to make enough money from it to pay for your next toner cartridge.

I'm not troubled by OP's not knowing that...though sometimes I cringe when I see new, young writers who also don't know it! Are they in for a painful lesson....


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *I think the problem is the OP is approaching this from the perspective of a person who assumes mega sales are actually the norm and that sales volume is the norm. Neither has EVER been true in publishing. *The Pattersons and Kings of the world have always been rare. There is a reason most authors have always had the proverbial "day job." Statistically, very few writers make a full time living from just writing.
> 
> If you look back over the last twenty years of data available through places like Bookscan and others, the average book sells under 5000 copies IN ITS LIFETIME. Forget the million sellers. Forget the big advances. In the real world, on average across all genres, the average book sells under 5000 copies in its lifetime. Some genres with voracious readerships, if averaged by themselves, would reflect higher averages. But some genres, with small, niche audiences, would reflect lower averages. The reality has always been that book sales are not nearly as high as the average person would believe, because the average person is only looking at the bestseller list.
> 
> ...


No, not really. I am well aware that the James Pattersons of this world are outliers. And with 3 million (or however many) titles on Amazon, you don't even need to do math to know that 99% of them can't be selling very well.

But at the same time, logic (at least, my logic) suggests that nobody writes a book and hopes that it only sells 17 copies. Hell, I wouldn't even write a short story if I knew it would sell only 17 copies. I would treat such an outcome as rejection - but writers don't, they are motivated to write two more books! That's what I find remarkable. I know you guys obviously don't, but I do.

I actually like posts where someone says "my first 350-page book sold really great - 200 copies, and I made $113 on it, spent $300 on promotion, and I feel really excited". All this reinforces my faith in humanity. 

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

You keep throwing out suicide and harming one's self very cavalierly. In my opinion, that's not very polite as many people on this board and in public struggle with mental health issues. Even in passing, saying someone should jump off a bridge or off themselves over a lack of sales is truly rude. 

If you are genuinely interested in the optimism it takes to continue in this profession, great. But continuing to make snide comments about suicide is really uncalled for. The world has lost many great artists at too young an age over such tragedies.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Elizabeth makes a good point. DoG, please move on from those kinds of comments.  We lost a member here last year to suicide (not related to book sales).

Betsy


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> And with 3 million (or however many) titles on Amazon, you don't even need to do math to know that 99% of them can't be selling very well.


Actually to reach that top 1% you'd only need 3, maybe 4, sales a day. That should give some perspective as to how competitive this field truly is.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Actually to reach that top 1% you'd only need 3, maybe 4, sales a day. That should give some perspective as to how competitive this field truly is.


no kidding. I think I'll stick to reading for now  Neither my modern romance idea nor my other modern romance idea nor the sniper in the Bangkok brothel idea are likely to be bestsellers


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Every success and bit of improvement, no matter how small, is worth celebrating. 

Should someone who struggled to lose two pounds not celebrate because they didn't lose 50+ pounds like the people on the reality show? No way. 

Why would book sales be any different? If everyone only focused on the BIG accomplishments, then many would get discouraged and quit early on in the game of writing and publishing. It's the same reason that people who break their large goals into tiny, manageable chunks are more likely to reach the big goal than those who don't.


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Your focus on sales is a bit off target, D of G. In the real world of publishing, a bestseller has to sell five copies a week in every store in the country. That's less than one sale per day, but counting only 1,000 book stores, that's 5,000 book sales/week or 130,000 in six months. The net income from those sales from royalties (as opposed to an advance) depends on the price of the book. The higher the price of the book, the greater the net income.

In the world of digital publishing, self-published authors have to decide on the pricing of their books, and whether to price below $2.99 (35% royalty) or between $2.99 and $9.99 (70% royalty). At the highest price ($9.99) with the 70% royalty, the author receives approx. $7 per sale. 1.000 sales would make $7,000. At the opposite end of the pricing scale, a $0.99  book earns the author approx. $0.35. To make $7,000, the author would have to sell 20,000 books. 

So, measuring success by number of books sold is not the same as measuring success by the amount of money earned.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> But at the same time, logic (at least, my logic) suggests that nobody writes a book and hopes that it only sells 17 copies.


Actually, when I first started self-publishing a decade ago, I didn't actually even THINK about the sales. I had no idea what I was doing and was in shock when I got the first sale from someone who wasn't a friend or family member. The first time I read a good review? I about had a Sally Field moment ("You like me! You really, really like me!) The creative mind CREATES and then puts it out there. Now, I publish as a business and maintain spreadsheets and run profit/loss reports and such. But when I first started? It was honestly the thrill of holding my book for the first time and seeing my name on the cover. If it had never sold a single copy, that moment was mine. I had accomplished something that people like you do not have the will to do: I published my book.

People who think writing is easy and that publishing is a get-rich-quick scheme will always be disappointed with low sales. But creative people who write because they HAVE to? Because they are driven to put their stories out there? Every sale is precious because it means a human being made a decision to read your story. The sales are really secondary.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Shelagh said:


> Your focus on sales is a bit off target, D of G. In the real world of publishing, a bestseller has to sell five copies a week in every store in the country. That's less than one sale per day, but counting only 1,000 book stores, that's 5,000 book sales/week or 130,000 in six months. The net income from those sales from royalties (as opposed to an advance) depends on the price of the book. The higher the price of the book, the greater the net income.
> 
> In the world of digital publishing, self-published authors have to decide on the pricing of their books, and whether to price below $2.99 (35% royalty) or between $2.99 and $9.99 (70% royalty). At the highest price ($9.99) with the 70% royalty, the author receives approx. $7 per sale. 1.000 sales would make $7,000. At the opposite end of the pricing scale, a $0.99 book earns the author approx. $0.35. To make $7,000, the author would have to sell 20,000 books.
> 
> So, measuring success by number of books sold is not the same as measuring success by the amount of money earned.


I understand all this  The vague hypothetical scenario that I had in my head is a roughly 300 page ebook (that took probably 1 year to write) selling on Amazon for $2.99. I understand that if you do this for the sake of art or literature, then it doesn't matter what it earns, in dollars. It would be like an artist painting landscapes or trees for himself. But the hypo (at least, in my head) cannot ignore the financial return of 17 sales x 2.99 x 70% = 6 cups of coffee at Starbucks.

I am not arguing with anyone, just musing. I guess I am not an artist at heart


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## frigatebird (Jan 21, 2015)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> No, not really. I am well aware that the James Pattersons of this world are outliers. And with 3 million (or however many) titles on Amazon, you don't even need to do math to know that 99% of them can't be selling very well.


12 million, last I checked. Actually, I just did a quick search and it looks like it's now more like 15-20 million.

Which means that if you sell a couple of copies a *month* you are already in the top 1% of books.


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

When I wrote my first book, I realized a life-long dream. I was so excited. I didn't expect anyone to read it. It was a silly, self-published genre book, after all. I didn't even bother to charge for it, until about a year later, when I checked on its fate. I learned not only were people reading it in good numbers, but they were writing reviews of it. I was stunned. That's when I decided to put a price on it. And that little thing bought me a new stove and refrigerator. What a treat!


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I understand all this  The vague hypothetical scenario that I had in my head is a roughly 300 page ebook (that took probably 1 year to write) selling on Amazon for $2.99. I understand that if you do this for the sake of art or literature, then it doesn't matter what it earns, in dollars. It would be like an artist painting landscapes or trees for himself. But the hypo (at least, in my head) cannot ignore the financial return of 17 sales x 2.99 x 70% = 6 cups of coffee at Starbucks.
> 
> I am not arguing with anyone, just musing. I guess I am not an artist at heart


I do see where you are coming from, but there are writers here who just want to make money. They are ruthless in their approach to writing and publishing. They do market research, find out what is selling, hire editors to perfect their work, set up marketing plans to release books at the right time to maximise sales. To them, it's a business and the bottom line is: can I live off my writing? If the answer is no, they adopt a new strategy or change careers.

Then there's the group of writers who have jobs and can only give a percentage of their time to writing. They dream of becoming full time authors, but it's just a dream. My husband always says that those who succeed are not the ones who won't give up; they are the ones left standing when everyone else has given up.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

metwo said:


> And that little thing bought me a new stove and refrigerator. What a treat!


Ha.

A year ago I moved to a place where I'm much happier. While I have other income streams to keep body and soul together under a roof, the quality of said roof left something to be desired. Without my books, moving, let alone buying new furniture, would have been out of reach.

When my previous computer began showing its age, I had to plan to replace it. Now, if ever my computer bursts into flames, as it very well may if I keep visiting this board, I can just buy a new one. Not the most expensive one, not the cheapest deal around, but the one I want. In fact, I already bought a laptop as backup for the day I see smoke emerging from my desktop computer.

Is this success? It sure feels like it.


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I understand all this  The vague hypothetical scenario that I had in my head is a roughly 300 page ebook (that took probably 1 year to write) selling on Amazon for $2.99. I understand that if you do this for the sake of art or literature, then it doesn't matter what it earns, in dollars. It would be like an artist painting landscapes or trees for himself. But the hypo (at least, in my head) cannot ignore the financial return of 17 sales x 2.99 x 70% = 6 cups of coffee at Starbucks.
> 
> I am not arguing with anyone, just musing. I guess I am not an artist at heart


The real scenario for one of my books is: it's a 372 page book, it took me 6 weeks to write the first draft and another 6 to revise/edit it, and it's on Amazon for $3.99. I probably won't sell many copies of it, and that's okay. It will probably be a handful. The thing is, I would have written it anyway. I *did* write it anyway, like 4 years ago. It was just collecting dust on my hard drive. Why not put it out into the world? A handful of readers is much more rewarding than zero.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

I've had someone tell me, about a book of mine, "It changed my life." It hardly sells one copy a month now. Would I rather have sold 500 copies of a book that was obviously trash than have a book make an impact on someone's life? To have dared to have written what I have written, and to have someone come up to me at a New Year's party and say, "How did you find the courage [to write that book]?" That's the kind of feeling that money can't buy.


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

Richardcrasta said:


> I've had someone tell me, about a book of mine, "It changed my life." It hardly sells one copy a month now. Would I rather have sold 500 copies of a book that was obviously trash than have a book make an impact on someone's life? To have dared to have written what I have written, and to have someone come up to me at a New Year's party and say, "How did you find the courage [to write that book]?" That's the kind of feeling that money can't buy.


Wow, that's wonderful.


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## Revolution (Sep 17, 2012)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> I have a question for everyone who is NOT selling 10000 copies a month.
> 
> I read some of the authors here on this forum, who come out with their first book, and it sells 30 copies in month 1, 15 in month 2, 4 copies in month 3. They then come out with book 2, and it sells 85 copies total.
> 
> ...


I can see your point. Writing a novel is damn hard work. Damn hard. I'm not sure how many hours I've put in total, but considering I've worked on my latest one five hours a day, seven days a week for five months, I really--really want it to do well and 85 copies sold just won't cut it. However, I set myself up for disappointment. I know this business. So if it fails, I won't go jumping off a bridge, I'll be writing the next one.


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## Scila (Apr 13, 2014)

I wish KBoards had a like button. So many people already said what I was thinking!

I have my bad days, the sad ones, where I think that I'll never sell enough to quit the day job and just write, but then I remember that people actually read my book, like strangers, some of them even bothered to write a review or sign for my mailing list!

I'm not going to change the world or even be remembered by these people in six months, BUT for a few hours I entertained them. For someone who is the most boring weird person you'll meet in a long time with zero charisma, to actually make a connection with other people is worth it the effort. (And so far, worth the investment.). I'm not interesting, but at least my stories are! That's pretty cool 

Realistically speaking, if my next novels don't return the investment like the ones I have now, then I'll probably have to stop self-publishing. I won't stop _writing_ because ever since I wrote my first story about a family traveling through time and meeting a prehistorical mega-whale when I was 8, I never stopped even when I didn't consider what I was doing as "writing". It's a compulsion.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> nor my other modern romance idea nor the sniper in the Bangkok brothel idea are likely to be bestsellers


  *quickly covers WIP with the daily newspaper*

in other news, small creative world innit?


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