# UPDATE--New, stupid, and completely overwhelmed.



## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Life is good! Just wanted to let all you helpful people know I hired Mr. Tom Shutt, editor at Main Line Editing, to help me and the updated version is on Amazon!   I couldn't be more pleased with his work and have backed off the proverbial ledge! 

I might have quit my precious hobby if it wasn't for all the help and encouraging words I received here on KBoards. So here's a huge virtual hug, along with a thank you to everyone from the bottom of my heart. 

PS. Especially you, JTanner! You are greatly appreciated. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to repay your kindness.  


Mindy



This is not whining, I promise you, but I just don't know where else to go. If you read this in its entirety, thank you, and if you can provide any guidance or advice, well...I appreciate kindness.  

My first and only book has received 13 reviews for an overall 4.6 rating. Good, right? Lol. But the one that killed me was a one star, "This author is in dire need of an editor". 

Previously, as only an avid reader, I would catch the obvious typos, but nothing more. My focal point was on the storyline. Once I entered Author forums I quickly found out how mistakes affect the book, genre, and essentially, the entire world of self publishing. With no funds for an editor, I scrubbed, read advice columns, and scrubbed some more. I've bookmarked in KBoards so often I'm afraid they'll ban me as a stalker. 

It's all so overwhelming. I'm drowning. Just a week ago, I received this from an experienced thriller reviewer via email:

"Just finished your book. It really is very good. Some constructive criticism - you desperately need some editing for incorrect word usage & a few garbled sentences. These errors brutally disrupt the unimpeded flow of the story & make it very hard to get back into the 'zone'.

That said, I think your story, itself is first-rate; I was kept guessing until the end, your pacing & plotting is excellent, your characters quite believable & lovable & your scenes of violence truly terrifying.

If you can clean up the rough spots, you've really got something, here - not to mention a heroine that is definitely interesting enough (loved the Inn & her family dynamic) to use in a series.

With the current errors, I'd give it a 3 1/2 stars. Once they're removed, I'd cheerfully upgrade it to a 4 - 4 1/2."

I've since stopped everything. Book two is on hold, book one's audio is on hold, and I can't find my mojo again. I don't feel worthy of being apart of the published world and am ashamed. I've not written a word in a week. All the editing programs I've found are costly and like I said, I can't pay an editor. I've even posted three different FB shout-outs (different accounts) for English or Creative Writing Majors/Graduates/Professors. No luck. 

My first daunting step is to correct the ", to ," in dialogue throughout the entire book and I need to dissect every line again, and I will, but how do I correct what I don't know? I was a business major. Lol. I can't find the garbled sentences or incorrect word usages the reviewer references. 

I can't find a critique group with an opening nor can I find fellow thriller writers who have time for an inexperienced and new member. I'm ashamed in other forums when they immediately discount my material as degrading to the self publication world because I used a passive voice somewhere or as another poster said had my "character dangling a participle". I've looked into recommended reading materials (Stephen King, etc) and it all became just...so much. To put it mildly, I'm in a funk. 

I don't want to embarrass other self publishers. I just want to write my stories and not feel so stupid. Please tell me you've felt the same a time or two? 

Any kind words of wisdom from the experienced? 

Thank you,
Mindy


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2015)

First *hugs*  If you're at a 4.6 rating with grammatical errors, I'd say it's a pretty good sign you have an awesome story that just needs a bit of polish.

If you can't afford to hire out for editing at all, then maybe take a look at ProWritingAid.  The free version will be slow to use (only 3,000 words at a time), but might at least help you spot more of the errors.  The paid version is fairly cheap, $35-40/year, which removes the limit and lets you use their Word plug-in.  I've found it fairly useful to at least guide to places where I need to review something and then make a decision on what changes (if any) to make.  The key thing is making sure to thoroughly exam the suggestions because most of the time they are intended as guidance not absolutes.

Another option might be if you have a small amount of funds available, ask an editor to do a brief edit on just the first chapter or two to help you learn the consistent mistakes so you can go through and do the rest.  It will be significantly cheaper than having the whole book done and at least give you a starting point.  I've seen several who have even mentioned that option on their sites for those with lower budgets.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

First, there's no reason to feel stupid. Having errors in a non-edited book is entirely normal. Not being able to see them yourself is entirely normal.

This is why editors are valuable and necessary to writers whether new or experienced.

Second, you cannot trust those online editing tools without more experience. They can be helpful when you've reached a more confident understanding of craft, but at this point all they can do is confuse you or steer you wrong.

Third, I'm in a pay it forward mood and while you haven't asked, I'm offering. Hit me up via PM and we'll arrange where you can send me the first section of your book and I'll clean it up at a grammatical level. Depending on how that goes, maybe I'll do more. I don't know. This is an experiment I guess.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

To fix ", use Find and Replace. Type ", into Find and ," into Replace. I think this should work. (Not an editor.)


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

J. Tanner said:


> First, there's no reason to feel stupid. Having errors in a non-edited book is entirely normal. Not being able to see them yourself is entirely normal.
> 
> This is why editors are valuable and necessary to writers whether new or experienced.
> 
> ...


J. Tanner you are awesome!

Mindy, you are so not stupid! *big hug* Congrats on the great reviews. It's really hard for me to edit my own books. I actually can't do it because my brain reads it the right way, the way I intended, rather than what it really says. I will read my manuscript over and over and be so pleased with all the errors I catch... then I get it back from the editor and it's completely red marked with the most obvious errors. Sounds like you do better than me! Hang in there, grammatical errors can be fixed and you are a writer! You will get your mojo back.


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## E.M. Cooper (Feb 27, 2015)

Hello, Mindy

I don't count as 'experienced', but I think many writers drift in and out of that awful overwhelmed status. It takes courage to keep fighting it. It sounds like you have a great book, so it's worth finding a way to continue. I understand the difficulty of funding professionals that could help your book shine.

Natural Reader is useful for editing (http://www.naturalreaders.com/index.html). It has a free option.

There are many excellent free online sources such as the Purdue Online Writing Lab: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/section/1/ 
It's a terrific grammar resource.

There are also free online editing courses: http://study.com/articles/List_of_Free_Online_Editing_Courses.html

I know how hard it is, and I wish you well.


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

You guys! I'm close to tears with appreciation. Not exactly sure how to quote from multiple posts, so here's my shorthand version:

Anma...((hugs))! Will definitely check out ProWritingAid. Sounds perfect for me. 

J. Tanner...if I wrote historical romance, I'd refer to you as a knight in shining armor. Thank you! I PM'd you, please let me know if you don't receive it. You were my first. Lol!

Abderian...Brilliant *slaps hand to forehead*, of course! Why didn't I think of that? Forest, trees...

Sunshine...what a ray you are ((hugfest commence)). Is hugfest even a word? It should be.

E. M. Cooper...you sound experienced and knowledgable to me. Thank you, I'll definitely check those out!

You guys ROCK!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I read the first few pages. It's not in such bad shape, Mindy54. You have nothing to be embarrassed about, IMO. You have a reasonable command of sentence-level mechanics. Is it up to what a good editor would produce? No. But most writers' prose isn't. That's why editors exist: the vast majority of authors are storytellers, not make-utterly-perfecters. What I'm seeing: yes, the convention in the U.S. is to put periods and commas inside quotation marks, not outside, so that needs to be fixed; you should only be putting one space after a period, but it looks like you're usually putting in two; you don't have a universal command of comma rules, which most people don't; yes, there's the occasional misused word ("humored" when you need "amused"; "worn" when you need "wore"); and you seem to be unaware of some fiction conventions, such as putting different people's actions and dialogue in separate paragraphs. But all in all, it was way cleaner than I expected, given the criticism you say you've been getting. Buck up. 

In addition to taking advantage of J. Tanner's kind offer, pick up a well reputed traditionally published book in your field and really examine it. Where do the paragraphs break? How long do they tend to be? How is the dialogue marked (with "he says"? with action tags? with nothing? with a mixture)? What consistent punctuation patterns do you see? How does the author mark internal thoughts? What's capitalized and what isn't? Etc. For instance, here's an image from the Look Inside of a Scott Turow book. See the punctuation inside the quote marks? See how the dialogue is separated into short (often just one line) paragraphs? See where Turow uses the action tag "Raymond points" instead of a speech tag (such as "Raymond says")? And see where he uses no tags at all? See where contractions are used and where they aren't? Where does the author use sentence fragments? You can pick a lot of technique up just by looking carefully at how books in your genre are put together. You don't want to mimic other authors' styles, but you do want to try to internalize the norms everyone's using.










(Edited image for bad language.)


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

I also use Prowritingaid. Your computer should have a text to speech program to read the text back to you. You can catch a lot of errors hearing the text. I use an online critique group called Scribophile. Free to join. It's a tit for tat system so you'll have to critique other writing to get enough karma points to post yours. If you join, look me up: A.R. Tan. Good luck.


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Becca Mills - thank you. I've thought of doing this, but here's my follow-up question...you know how we have to put a blank line after each paragraph for Amazon eBook formatting? Would I put one after each statement?

"What's the weather like?" Amanda asked.

"Overcast and cold." Jack said looking up at the clouds. 

  Next paragraph...

Or is it put together:

  "What's the weather like?" Amanda asked.
  "Overcast and cold." Jack said looking up at the clouds. 

  Next paragraph...


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

artan said:


> I also use Prowritingaid. Your computer should have a text to speech program to read the text back to you. You can catch a lot of errors hearing the text. I use an online critique group called Scribophile. Free to join. It's a tit for tat system so you'll have to critique other writing to get enough karma points to post yours. If you join, look me up: A.R. Tan. Good luck.


Thank you! I will search for the text to speech on my computer. Agree that will definitely help me. As far as the Scribophile, I'll join and look you up, but until I improve, well it probably isn't a good idea for me to critique others just yet  I'll check it out though in case I can learn from observing. Once I gain my confidence I'll jump in! Appreciate it.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Mindy54 said:


> Becca Mills - thank you. I've thought of doing this, but here's my follow-up question...you know how we have to put a blank line after each paragraph for Amazon eBook formatting? Would I put one after each statement?
> 
> "What's the weather like?" Amanda asked.
> 
> ...


Actually, I think most of us don't use that formatting style (a whole blank line between paragraphs). Notice again how the Turow book looks. There's no extra white space between paragraphs. The text looks equally dense throughout. I think my own books are formatted to have just a hair of extra space between paragraphs.

But yes, if you want to put an entire blank line between paragraphs, then there'd be a blank line after every single paragraph, whether it has one word or two hundred words.

Above, you would not put a period before "Jack said, looking up at the clouds" because it's part of the same sentence with the dialogue. Speech tags are separated from their dialogue with commas except when you need to use a question mark:

"What's the weather like?" Amanda asked.

"Overcast and cold," Jack said, looking up at the clouds.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Mindy54 said:


> ...you know how we have to put a blank line after each paragraph for Amazon eBook formatting?


We do? I don't and nearly every kindle book I've ever read doesn't.

It sounds like you've found some good help here (good old KBoards). Best of luck!


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Mindy, Amazon have a forum called Write On (I think) which is specifically for this sort of thing. You might also find other critique groups online or perhaps you have a friend or a student studying English? I don't want to make you feel worse, but this is the sort of thing: "I don't feel worthy of being apart of the published world" that makes people think you need an editor. A part is two words in this context.

When I discovered kdp, I suddenly realised that the manuscript I had kept for thirty years could get published. The problem was, it was in hard copy, as typed on a typewriter before the advent of computers, so I had to copy type the whole thing. It is 85,000 words and by the time I had finished I was sick of the sight of it, so I didn't bother to read it through. I know better now, of course, but I went ahead, terrified it would be laughed at. I got a four star review which said 'I would not have kept reading a lesser work because of the typos'. You can imagine how stupid I felt. I had typed it so fast, I had 2 instead of " a lot. But I cleaned it up, uploaded it again and commented that it had been corrected.

We all get bad reviews at times and if you are not first class at grammar or punctuation or the use of words, find a friend or a group. If people give you good reviews despite its flaws, you must be doing something right.

Have a look in your local library; they may know of a writers' group you can join.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

To fix double spaces, hit the space bar twice in Find and once in Replace. This one does work because I use it myself.


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## barbie888 (Aug 26, 2013)

Mindy54,
I don't think you need the apology in the front matter saying self-published, self-edited, errors...
I feel as though that's asking for a harsh critique from your readers.
Drop the self this and self that. Soften up the errors line like, "Any mistakes are fully mine"


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Oh, Mindy, get rid of the self published bit at the front, for all our sakes, please! Most readers have never heard of self publishing and if they have, it is a turn off. The great unwashed have no idea and will think if it is any good, it will be picked up by a 'proper' publisher. We don't want the world to know we self publish, that is a definite sales killer. 

If you must put all those acknowledgements in, put them at the back. Nobody wants to read them and they are taking up a huge chunk of your look inside. How many books do you read where you actually read the acknowledgements? I can tell you how many I read - zero. It is bad enough when people I know tell me about their wonderful kids and their wonderful husband, I certainly don't want to read about them from someone I don't know.

You sound as though you are apologising for being on Amazon, among all the others publicly exposing their thoughts to the world. That is no way to get sales.


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

Sam Kates said:


> We do? I don't and nearly every kindle book I've ever read doesn't.


I might have a clue of what happened here (because it's happened to me). If you've used "Building your Book for Kindle", they explain about inserting empty spaces between paragraphs (as in... it's an option). They use a pretty strange example



> Next to the word "After", you can enter a value for your preferred space after a paragraph (in the example below, Word will allow a 10 point space after a paragraph, before the next paragraph).
> 
> Kindle Direct Publishing (2012-04-15). Building Your Book for Kindle (Kindle Locations 67-6 Kindle Edition.


As an inexperienced publisher I used every standard example given in the book to format Mindguard, before I found out that there's nothing "standard" about having a 10 point space after every paragraph. I have since changed it.

That being said: Mindy - I understand (perhaps more than others) what you're going through because I'mnot a native English speaker, so there's always that anxiety of writing something that sounds "off" to native speakers. I also can't afford to professionally edit yet, but I did send the book to native speakers for beta-reading, so they could let me know if there's any weird usage of the English language. But typos and the like will always slip through the cracks, no matter how hard you work.

What I try to do is use a different format of the text every time I edit. For example, I go over the manuscript on my computer a few times, then I print it out on A4 paper, after which I actually upload it to CreateSpace and send a physical copy to myself, to test it. Seeing the same text in different formats actually helps my brain stay alert and not see the action as "repetitive". Perhaps it would help you too.

Also, the best way to learn how to edit, I think, is by just looking at other books. But just don't panic and there's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Most people (who know what self-publishing is) understand that self-published works might contain a small number of errors. As long as their number is not overwhelming, I don't think most will mind.



Doglover said:


> Oh, Mindy, get rid of the self published bit at the front, for all our sakes, please! Most readers have never heard of self publishing and if they have, it is a turn off. The great unwashed have no idea and will think if it is any good, it will be picked up by a 'proper' publisher. We don't want the world to know we self publish, that is a definite sales killer.
> 
> If you must put all those acknowledgements in, put them at the back. Nobody wants to read them and they are taking up a huge chunk of your look inside. How many books do you read where you actually read the acknowledgements? I can tell you how many I read - zero. It is bad enough when people I know tell me about their wonderful kids and their wonderful husband, I certainly don't want to read about them from someone I don't know.
> 
> You sound as though you are apologising for being on Amazon, among all the others publicly exposing their thoughts to the world. That is no way to get sales.


I second, third and quadruple this!


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

Hey Mindy.

I am what they call a "hybrid author" - which means that I publish traditionally through a local publisher as well as independently by myself.

ALL of my traditional releases go through several edits by at least TWO different editors and I absolutely love working with editors. 

Why?

Because my grammar is pathetic. My sense of tense is totally abysmal. When it comes to proper sentence structure I suck harder than a thousand backed up toilets.

And that is after FORTY YEARS of writing and selling my fiction.

I can't afford an editor for my independent books either. 

Don't sweat it. Do your best. Get yourself a few good beta readers that you trust. Make do. Get by.

I look through some of my Kindle reviews and I see happy glowing four star reviews that are singing my praises more sweetly than Caruso sailing on a high "C", sitting right plunk next to those toady little one star reviews that say something along the lines of "Somebody get that keyboard away from that fellow before he hurts himself, would you?".

Don't sweat it.

Listen - you just have to remember that writing is nothing more than talking on paper. You do your best not to trip over your own tongue but every now and then you blurt something out that just sounds stupid. Your friends - your readers - well they don't mind - except for that weird one who always talks about quilting and is constantly correcting your bad habit of tripping over your past participles.

I took a look at the "LOOK INSIDE" at your Amazon listing. I didn't see any glaring issues.

If it helps, I find the best way to proof read a manuscript is to actually read it out loud while I edit.

Or maybe I just like listening to the sound of my own voice...


Hang in there kid. This gig can be fun.


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

Don't feel bad for feeling overwhelmed. I've written 30+ books, most of them for a publisher, and I still get overwhelmed by all the new stuff there always is to learn. I have naturally good grammar (phew, since I really don't understand the rules at all when people explain them) but I still make dumb mistakes all the time. I actually barter with my copy editor--I do her covers and she does the editing. Can you work out an arrangement like that with someone?

But even if you have an editor, you still need to self edit. We all do.

One thing I've done that is super helpful, is to make a "revision blueprint" of stuff to look for in my books after they're written. There's a long list of words I tend to overuse, or misuse, or mis-spell (how do you even spell that?) or spell the British way (since I'm from the UK). If you make a list of mistakes you make, ie putting the period outside quotes, then you will know what to look for.

I also made myself a long list of useful tools when I first started self publishing, and here's the section on writing aids. These are from 2013 so hopefully they're still there:

Use edit minion to check for overused words, etc http://prod.uctivity.com
Use http://www.hemingwayapp.com to check for convoluted sentences, etc
Search and destroy any double spaces
List of words to look for (was, felt, just, well, very, etc)
Check comma usage but keep minimal
Check times and numbers
List of common mistakes made (their/they're/there, your you're, where/were, etc)
List of my common typos and transpositions
List of things I always miss (check prev crits)
List of grammar goofs I make a lot (check prev edits)
Make decisions on serial commas etc so I'm consistent 
Whitesmoke is a grammar checker

Readability http://www.online-utility.org/english/readability_test_and_improve.jsp

Text to speech. Listen all the way through with Natural Reader

...

Of these, I found I really only need to use Natural Reader--the text to voice program--which reads my work aloud and helps me catch stuff my eye glides over, like missing words (my biggest problem) or the wrong word.

As you continue you'll make less mistakes. I didn't get published until I'd written ten books, but now you have the opportunity to learn and grow in the public eye so it makes sense to learn faster


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Mindy, what program are you writing with? If it's Word, PM me and I'll send you a template pre-formatted for upload to Amazon and instructions.

Something you need to understand is that you can't afford NOT to have an editor. Even if you have to pay to get your book edited a chapter at a time as you save the money, it will pay for itself in sales. I've been editing for 30 years, and I'm not qualified to edit my own work. No one makes mistakes on purpose, and when we read our own work, we see what is supposed to be there, not what is. We also understand what we're trying to say, but that doesn't mean we've written it in a way that other people will see the same vision in their heads. I have two beta readers that I call my "confusion editors". If I write anything that is confusing in any way whatsoever, it will confuse them. 

And guess what? We've all been new at some point, and we've all done some dumb things. Since you're still breathing, nothing you've done should stop you from correcting your problems and moving forward to the next mistake. I have seven books out, and I keep hoping the next one will actually be good.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

Giving you a big *cyber hug*!

All writers need help at times. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. And no matter how many times I go over my own manuscript or have someone else proofread it, I still find typos. (Actually, the best way to find typos is to listen to the entire MS read out loud.)

Even though, I do developmental edits for writers, I hire editors to look over my work. I like to use at least two editors to make sure my work is polished because as writers we are often too close to our own writing to see the flaws.

I also use critique partners (CP). Every serious writer should have a CP (and use a professional editor at some point). Your CP is one of your most valuable allies when venturing into the world of publishing. A CP will tell you when you're writing is awesome--or when it sucks. A great CP will also encourage you when the rejections start pouring in, and be the one to sympathize with you about publishing woes.

Editing is a long, hard process. It can take even the most experienced writer a great deal of time, effort, and patience, but the end results are well worth it.

I have a list of places to find a CP on my blog if you want to try to find one for future projects: http://fictionwritingtools.blogspot.com/search/label/critique%20partners

And I'd be happy to critique your first 25 pages if you'd like. You can PM me or email me to discuss. 

BTW, we all feel discouraged at times and sometimes a negative review can make an author want to never write again! But now you understand the issue and it's an easy fix going forward. _Don't give up!_


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

brkingsolver said:


> Something you need to understand is that you can't afford NOT to have an editor. Even if you have to pay to get your book edited a chapter at a time as you save the money, it will pay for itself in sales.


It _may _pay for itself in sales. No guarantees.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> It _may _pay for itself in sales. No guarantees.


Okay, it _may_ pay for itself.  It _will_ get rid of those snarky reviews that cite editing issues, and it _may_ make people more likely to buy your second book.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

brkingsolver said:


> Okay, it _may_ pay for itself.  It _will_ get rid of those snarky reviews that cite editing issues, and it _may_ make people more likely to buy your second book.


Agreed!


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

In addition to all the great advice you've already been given, I would add this: what a reviewer means by "dire need of an editor" and what you think they mean can be two very different things. You read that sentence and think, "Oh no, I should give up because it's all wrong and terrible!" The reviewer, on the other hand, noticed a few mistakes and chose the word "dire" because one of them was his big grammar pet-peeve.

My advice is, at the very least, find a few beta readers who can help point out awkward sentences or places where the plot becomes confusing, even if they can't do a line by line proofread. Then, if possible, try to hire an editor to proofread your work. Developmental and copy editing can be $.006 or more per word, but you can often find proofreaders for around $.0025. It's still an investment of a couple hundred dollars (but at least it's not thousands!), but think of it this way- a 5-week writing class at your local adult ed would cost at least that much and might not really address your weaknesses. Once you get your corrected manuscript back, you'll see what mistakes you tend to make and know what to look for in the future. That alone is worth the investment. And it could lead to stronger sales of the current book, or to much more strongly written future books if that's your goal.


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

It's absolutely ok to feel overwhelmed, Mindy. It happens to everyone, likely for every book. 

I'm not an expert in editing questions (other than to tell you that you need a good editor, or a great CP with good grammar skills). But I can help with formatting tips, if you have some basic knowledge of MS Word. I've written a detailed step-by-step instruction on how to format your manuscript for eBook conversion here: How To Format Your Novel For Smashwords. It all works just fine for Amazon. 

Good luck with everything! You're in the best possible place to ask for advice, here.


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## Nancy_G (Jun 22, 2015)

Mindy, I just wanted to send you a hug and know we're all in this together. Kudos to all the wonderful writers who swooped in with tough love and helped her out of her self-defeating funk (hopefully!). I love seeing this. Mindy, you'll be fine. Keep the passion of storytelling.Take the advice of these fantastic people. I've also had those days of feeling like crap, as I'm sure we all have, so don't give up! If you ever want to talk, PM me.  In the meantime, don't stop writing!


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> It _may _pay for itself in sales. No guarantees.


It will have more chance of paying with sales if that self published label is gone!


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

You guys are literally THE BEST! And I definitely came to the "write" place. Lol. The insight and advice provided has been eye-opening and bonus, I feel friendships forming already. 

Sometimes all that is really needed is a friend. Either for a virtual hug or soft kick in the pants. I appreciate both and please, consider all those wonderful hugs returned. I'm squeezing!

If you need me, please send a PM. I will be busy editing (read; finding my mojo)  but would love a chance to return the shoulder favor, someday. 

Happily indebted,
Mindy


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Doglover said:


> It will have more chance of paying with sales if that self published label is gone!


This. Absolutely.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Doglover said:


> It will have more chance of paying with sales if that self published label is gone!


Agreed!


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

brkingsolver said:


> Okay, it _may_ pay for itself.  It _will_ get rid of those snarky reviews that cite editing issues...


Getting your book copy edited can prevent more of those reviews, but unfortunately it won't get rid of the snarky reviews you already have. Those are there forever.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Getting your book copy edited can prevent more of those reviews, but unfortunately it won't get rid of the snarky reviews you already have. Those are there forever.


But if all goes well, they get buried. A lot of us have those from when we were newbies -- including me. Not the end of the world!


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## LRWLee (Mar 17, 2015)

Don't feel stupid! If anything I salute you!! 

I hate reading books that are what your reviewer described. In fact, I won't. I start seeing problems and put the book down immediately. 

I say that to say this...you are taking the criticism seriously. And taking action to fix the problem. Not all newbie authors do and they continue to hurt not just themselves but the entire indie community. 

So, actions I suggest would be perhaps doing a Kickstarter campaign. You already have some feedback and just need some funds to make your great idea the best it can be.

Don't be overwhelmed, we are all beginners at a different level. SOme day you'll look back on this and smile fondly knowing how much you grew from it. 

Linda


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## BlinkFarm (Oct 25, 2015)

Jennifer Lewis said:


> Use edit minion to check for overused words, etc http://prod.uctivity.com
> Use http://www.hemingwayapp.com to check for convoluted sentences, etc


Wow, those will save me a metric crap-ton of time* on my second drafts. I've always done all the things they do by eye, using MS Word's 'find' function where appropriate. Now I can just go through and find the highlights. Love it. I wish I knew about these apps a long time ago...thanks for sharing!

*I just realized that time has no weight...or does it?


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

Lots of editors are happy to edit in stages - letting you pay as you go along. Or just paying for a small chunk, and using the feedback to do the rest yourself.

Or have you though of joining a small local writing group? Or setting one up yourself? Sometimes it's invaluable for mutual support and extra sets of eyes!


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Thank you Linda and Deb! I now cringe over my level of desperation in the initial post of this thread, but I'm so glad I put it all out there.  I've been amazed at the level of support everyone has shown this newbie, and I'm so very appreciative. As are others who have also gained confidence or beneficial information from this thread. 

I'm honored to be a part of this impressive group of people and aim to pay-it-forward in the future. 

Happy reading, happy writing!


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Jennifer Lewis said:


> Use edit minion to check for overused words, etc http://prod.uctivity.com
> Use http://www.hemingwayapp.com to check for convoluted sentences, etc


I tried editMinion on my WIP, and feel it can be useful. But do I have to go through the whole thing manually? Is there a way to copy or export the notated text?

On hemingway, it does't work in Chrome. I'll have to try using another browser.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Congratulations on being able to tell an excellent tale. That is the part of the craft that authors need. Editing is a skill set most of us do not naturally have. You can learn, and you can hire. Indies are _publishers_, not just writers, so learning how-to or hiring editors, formatters, and cover artists has fallen into our laps.

Think of yourself as having successfully navigated the first part of being a successful publisher. You have an author that can write-you. Now you can work on the publishing skills to get them up to par with your storytelling. It's an involved process, which is why everyone doesn't write books or build a body of work. You can do it!


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Lisa Grace said:


> Congratulations on being able to tell an excellent tale. That is the part of the craft that authors need. Editing is a skill set most of us do not naturally have. You can learn, and you can hire. Indies are _publishers_, not just writers, so learning how-to or hiring editors, formatters, and cover artists has fallen into our laps.
> 
> Think of yourself as having successfully navigated the first part of being a successful publisher. You have an author that can write--you. Now you can work on the publishing skills to get them up to par with your storytelling. It's an involved process, which is why everyone doesn't write books or build a body of work. You can do it!


Love your POV! Thanks for a perfect summary of this beautiful process and your inspirational message. I thought I was beginning to see the bigger picture, but let me ask one more question...

A thread was posted that referenced the OP's experience with two books. He (or she, can't remember) said their first book was "indie-published", while their second book was "self-published". Am I confused, or is that not the same thing?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Mindy54 said:


> Love your POV! Thanks for a perfect summary of this beautiful process and your inspirational message. I thought I was beginning to see the bigger picture, but let me ask one more question...
> 
> A thread was posted that referenced the OP's experience with two books. He (or she, can't remember) said their first book was "indie-published", while their second book was "self-published". Am I confused, or is that not the same thing?


To me, it's the same thing. Indie denotes a level of professionalism that self publish doesn't always have.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Mindy - 

You absolutely are not stupid. You do need an editor.

One of the problems with finding a "critique group" is that most of them are going to focus on developmental issues. They don't want to go through correcting commas.  It sounds like you are getting good feedback on your story. You don't know the mechanics of writing. This can be learned and you should learn as much as you can. Even if you do hire an editor, you will wind up paying more the more work they have to do.  Use the resources posted in this thread to start learning as much as you can. The advice to have someone edit at least a chapter and give you some advice about your common mistakes is gold. When you don't know what you don't know, it is hard to fix.

I am definitely not in the "don't sweat it" camp. I'm with Kingsolver. If you are serious about publishing as more than a hobby, you can't afford NOT to get an editor. You will never know how many readers you will lose over the editing. Most of them will not leave reviews, they just won't buy your books. I am not a grammar Nazi, but I have read several self-published books I enjoyed yet I declined to pick up the sequel. Why? There were consistent editing issues that were constant minor distractions. I have plenty of reading choices and limited time. Why not pick up a book with a good story AND good mechanics?

I'm not saying that to be mean. I'm trying to give you honest feedback from my reader persona. You will lose readers if you don't get your books edited.

Don't stop writing. I know it is hard when you are going through something this distressing and emotional, but don't stop. We've all had set-backs. You can do this.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Mindy54 said:


> Love your POV! Thanks for a perfect summary of this beautiful process and your inspirational message. I thought I was beginning to see the bigger picture, but let me ask one more question...
> 
> A thread was posted that referenced the OP's experience with two books. He (or she, can't remember) said their first book was "indie-published", while their second book was "self-published". Am I confused, or is that not the same thing?


It is the same thing. Indie means independent; either way it is best not to reveal it to anyone. I think being self published is the best way to go, personally. My daughter's fiancé recently remarked that if I keep getting such good reviews, I might soon get a proper publisher. Bloody cheek! I don't think he meant it in a derogatory way, but people just do not understand. As I told him, why would I want one of those? Less control, less output and less money.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Mindy54 said:


> A thread was posted that referenced the OP's experience with two books. He (or she, can't remember) said their first book was "indie-published", while their second book was "self-published". Am I confused, or is that not the same thing?


Whoever said that _might've _meant their first book was published by a small (independent) press, while their second book was self-published. But I think most of us use "indie" and "self-published" to mean the same thing.


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

IreneP said:


> Mindy -
> 
> You absolutely are not stupid. You do need an editor.
> 
> ...


Irene, you're not mean at all! What you are, is absolutely correct. My hobby is very important to me, which is why I posted such a pathetic cry for help  But, I've learned so much this weekend and it has provided me the confidence to back down from the ledge of exasperation. With the encouragement everyone has offered I'm inspired to be the best I can possibly be, before publishing book two. My goal is to heavily tap into the recommended resources I've recently learned of to correct book one and adopt those methods for all future work.

I'm going to get this right  Thank you for adding your perspective. I find it to be "gold", as well.


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Lisa and Becca, ahhh, got it! Thanks for clarifying. 

Doglover, Who would ever want to be proper anyway? That's no fun!


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## Tony_A20 (Dec 8, 2011)

Readers enjoy stories for many reasons. Those reasons always include suspension of disbelief, and clarity. Anything that interrupts a reader’s attention detracts from a story’s enjoyment. A grammatical error or the misuse of a word is akin to tripping over a brick.

A tiny, infrequent error such as a misplaced comma may not even be seen by an astute reader the first time it is encountered, but the second time it will be noticed. A major error such as a misused word will always cause a reader to stumble and look back in confusion. Errors, regardless of the interest generated by the story premise, never recommend an author to readers.

Grammar is a basic tool of the writing trade. To reduce the incidence of unintentional errors, authors must know, understand, and apply accepted rules of grammar. This requires study and work. 

To avoid word misuse, a dictionary is the least defence possible. Failure to use a dictionary is an inexcusable error and incumbent upon readers as well as writers.

In addition to grammar, rules of style are always applied to meet conventions imposed by national usage, publisher preference, or venue. These too must be learned and applied because they may also be regarded as writing errors. For instance, the word "defence" used above, has a spelling used throughout the English speaking world, yet in the United States of America, it is spelled, "defense." Style rules also require a dedicated effort to learn.

Finding and eliminating grammatical errors and word misuse is the prime reason authors must edit their text. Learning how is not difficult, but it does take time, effort, and money to buy needed references. Improvement is worth the cost. There is no excuse for an author not to learn how to edit. Editing is a skill within the capabilities of every literate person. Any person erudite enough to write has the ability to edit.

JMO
Tony


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm a firm believer in the idea that to do something at a "professional" level, you either have to hire a professional or you have to put in the time to make yourself a professional. If you don't have money to hire, then you'd better have time.

People always act as if editors are these sort of sacrosanct individuals that we must revere. But the truth is, they are just people who know stuff. And the things they know are not secrets. The stuff they know is actually taught to all children in public schools, so the information is out there, people. Anyone can be an editor. You just have to learn the rules of the English language. Or, rather, you need to look up the rules.

-Find a reputable, free source
-Every time you have a question about something, any time you are the teensiest bit unsure about how to do something, LOOK IT UP IN YOUR SOURCE.
-As time passes, you will look up less and less, because you will be sick of stopping to look crap up and you will retain the information because it is inconvenient not to. If you don't retain it, you can always look it up.

And then you need to have the book read aloud to you with text-to-speech, using something like Natural Reader, so that you can catch things like missing words.

You can be your own editor. But it's going to take a lot of work. (Here are the few errors I saw: You know you've got dialogue tag problems. You also are bolding things that don't need to be bolded. Check out this article on titles: http://homeworktips.about.com/od/mlastyle/a/titles.htm)

So, either start saving up money for an editor or start putting in the time.

Good luck!


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## Azalea (Mar 22, 2014)

Welcome, Mindy.  

I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been mentioned, though I'll agree that getting a portion of your novel edited so you can see YOUR common mistakes, and what to do about them, is a great idea. It's that whole "theory" vs. "example" thing. I don't know about you, but the "rules" of grammar don't make sense to me now, and they didn't when I was in school and the teachers would try to explain them. Luckily, I was an avid reader, and could just pull my knowledge from books. From there, if I was given an EXAMPLE, I could always duplicate it easily enough for the classwork. 

Plenty of editors are willing to give a free sample, or to do a portion of your novel for a small fee. 

I'm confident that you will do well in the long run, because you have the right attitude.


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Tony_A20 said:


> Improvement is worth the cost.


Tony, thank you for sharing your wisdom. The quote above is now posted in my office as a reminder of how motivational five little words can be.

Valeriec80, I love that statement about how editors "are just people who know stuff"! You are so right and as I was in complete awe of their knowledge, I hadn't seen it in quite that perspective. Now I will. And I've added the Homework Tips website to my resource list. Thanks so much for taking the time to provide your insight.


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Azalea Ellis said:


> Welcome, Mindy.
> 
> I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been mentioned, though I'll agree that getting a portion of your novel edited so you can see YOUR common mistakes, and what to do about them, is a great idea. It's that whole "theory" vs. "example" thing. I don't know about you, but the "rules" of grammar don't make sense to me now, and they didn't when I was in school and the teachers would try to explain them. Luckily, I was an avid reader, and could just pull my knowledge from books. From there, if I was given an EXAMPLE, I could always duplicate it easily enough for the classwork.
> 
> ...


Azalea - I'm not sure where you are from as I don't see it mentioned by your avatar, but I'm an American (deep southern type) woman. Raised (mostly) in North Carolina with the last 13 years of my life spent in beautiful Alabama.

I mention this only to say I hope you're not offended if I allow a little of my country charm to show by saying...BLESS YOUR HEART, GIRLIE  

You were spot on when you said the "rules" of grammar don't make sense. The part of my upbringing when I lived in Germany provided an unfortunate academic gap. Ages 11-14 were spent in an American Department of Defense School, with all other years in a North Carolina public school.

Not that these were bad schools, in fact they were ranked fairly high in academic scores, it was just a gap in instructional materials. The areas I missed were grammar (sentence structure and punctuation) and geography. I'm sure there are more, it's just been more prevalent in those two subjects.

I'm not making excuses for my lack of knowledge, just explaining a bit of my background. This thread has been a blessing for me. The experience, knowledge, and advice provided by established, successful authors and seasoned readers?? Completely priceless! Thank you for your input. I'd say we're kindred spirits and I'm happy to (virtually) meet you


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

If you have a gap in your education as to grammar and style, buy Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style".

http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Index-William-Strunk/dp/0024182001/ref=sr_1_4?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1447037169&sr=8-4&keywords=strunk+and+white

I would hazard that everyone who has answered you has it or has at least read it.


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

brkingsolver said:


> If you have a gap in your education as to grammar and style, buy Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style".
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Index-William-Strunk/dp/0024182001/ref=sr_1_4?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1447037169&sr=8-4&keywords=strunk+and+white
> 
> I would hazard that everyone who has answered you has it or has at least read it.


Looks perfect! I've never heard of it, probably because I didn't "go" to college until I was 36 years old. Lol. I see Amazon isn't selling it anymore, but I'll order a paperback from a 3rd party.

Can't wait to get my hands on it **prepping highlighters and colored sticky notes** 

Thanks again BR!


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## ShadyWolfBoy (Sep 23, 2015)

Mindy54 said:


> Looks perfect! I've never heard of it, probably because I didn't "go" to college until I was 36 years old. Lol. I see Amazon isn't selling it anymore, but I'll order a paperback from a 3rd party.
> 
> Can't wait to get my hands on it **prepping highlighters and colored sticky notes**
> 
> Thanks again BR!


That's an older edition apparently.

Amazon is stocking the new edition here: www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-William-Strunk-Jr/dp/020530902X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1447039254&sr=1-1

... may have to take a look at this myself.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Glynn Stewart said:


> That's an older edition apparently.
> 
> Amazon is stocking the new edition here: www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-William-Strunk-Jr/dp/020530902X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1447039254&sr=1-1
> 
> ... may have to take a look at this myself.


Read the reviews. The version you link to is a revision of the original Strunk book published in the early 1900s, not an updated Strunk and White. Be sure you know what you're ordering.


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Ah, yes. I see what you mean. The one star reviews clear up any confusion. Here's just one:

"This is a public domain version of an old 1919 copy of a grammar text by William Strunk Jr. It is not useful. Writing standards are different in 2011 compared with 1919.

"The Elements of Style (4th Edition)" by William Strunk (Author), E. B. White (Author), Roger Angell (Foreword) is what you want to buy."

I'll wait on the paperback, but thanks!


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## ShadyWolfBoy (Sep 23, 2015)

brkingsolver said:


> Read the reviews. The version you link to is a revision of the original Strunk book published in the early 1900s, not an updated Strunk and White. Be sure you know what you're ordering.


The version I linked to was the updated 1999 fourth edition (the very edition the review Mindy is quoting says to purchase).


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Glynn Stewart said:


> The version I linked to was the updated 1999 fourth edition (the very edition the review Mindy is quoting says to purchase).


Very weird. When I click on your link Glynn, it does take me to correct version. But, when I click to download the kindle version on that page, it redirects me to the other (bad) book.

Are you seeing the same thing?


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Mindy - rather than Strunk & White, I have an AP style guide on my desk. This is obviously not in my best interests as AP is more geared toward journalism and Strunk is more literary. My point is - WE ALL still need reference guides. You are not alone.

For down-and-dirty grammar, I suggest:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/grammar-girl

I rely on Grammar Girl all the time. You've seen those word-a-day vocabulary calendars? Why not choose a Grammar Girl article a day? Grammar Girl explains things in an easily accessible style and you will soon take for granted knowledge you never knew you needed.

You have such a positive attitude. I know you are on the road to success.


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## SasgoraBooks (Aug 27, 2015)

Another endorsement here for ProWritingAid. It can't replace a real editor, but it is great at helping you clean up your prose when you can't afford one.


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

My editor is excellent and only charges $1/1k. They're out there, just keep looking!

Honestly? Whether you can diy and do it well is up for debate. Very few people can and they tend to have a particular way of thinking and working around words. I can't,  not with all the style guides in the world on my desk.

I'm definitely in the camp of saving and paying for an editor. A book sale is a business transaction - you wouldn't forgive a cafe for giving you half strength coffee because they couldn't afford the beans, right?

  

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

I recommend Strunk and White as a basic intro to grammar and style. It's short and easy to understand and use. For advanced editing, I just gifted my editor with a copy of the Chicago Manual of Style, but I think it's beyond what she needs at this point and it's a bit pricey. When I worked for a newspaper, we handed every new reporter and copy editor a copy of Strunk and White and told them to read it before they started work. Then we handed them the AP style guide.


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## suzflt (Mar 19, 2013)

I totally feel you, Mindy. I've been in the game for 35 years, had seriously vicious reviews on Amazon and bad reviews in the media ... and it still hurts. DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE NOT DOING JUST WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING. Really. So getting an editor is a glorious thing ... frees up our brain to do the creating, no?

Pat on back. You can do it. Just hang in there ... Suzanne


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

IreneP said:


> Mindy - rather than Strunk & White, I have an AP style guide on my desk. This is obviously not in my best interests as AP is more geared toward journalism and Strunk is more literary. My point is - WE ALL still need reference guides. You are not alone.
> 
> For down-and-dirty grammar, I suggest:
> http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/grammar-girl
> ...


Irene, this person, this 'Grammar Girl'....yeah, great timing, as I just had an opening for a BFF!  I've bookmarked quick-and-dirty tips, too. Thanks so much and have a very productive week.

Mindy


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## SamAlbion (Oct 19, 2015)

hey Mindy....

have you tried printing off your manuscript and reading it aloud?  If it's difficult to speak aloud, it's difficult to read. That will catch the garbled sentences.    

Incorrect word usage -- another easy fix.  You have spelling and grammar check, right?  

Some people who write reviews couldn't write a book if they tried.  Their advice sounds witty, and wordy, but... 

If you can't yourself find these "garbled sentences or incorrect word usages the reviewer references", then maybe they don't exist.  Maybe.  

Don't give up!


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

DarkarNights said:


> Another endorsement here for ProWritingAid. It can't replace a real editor, but it is great at helping you clean up your prose when you can't afford one.


Thanks Darkar. I plan on doing exactly what you're saying. Editor first, ProWritingAid to supplement. 



spellscribe said:


> I'm definitely in the camp of saving and paying for an editor. A book sale is a business transaction - you wouldn't forgive a cafe for giving you half strength coffee because they couldn't afford the beans, right?


Spellscribe, well said! I think I once murdered someone for half strength coffee. (In a story, of course.) 



suzflt said:


> DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE NOT DOING JUST WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING. Really.


Suzanne, ^^^THIS! I think you just mentioned the root of all evil. Self-doubt can be crippling or motivational, but wondering if you even belong, if you're doing what you're truly meant to be doing, or if it's all just a dream that will always be outside of your reach, well...game over.

This thread has taught me that if I use the resources provided and benefit from the lessons learned of seasoned professionals, that dream is well within reach. Truly remarkable when you think about it.

Takes a village to raise an Indie


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Hi Mindy
I have not had time to read all the replies but you could try Andrea Harding (I think she's in the yellow pages here) as I know she has done payment plans for people in the past. I'm sure she could work out something affordable for you. Otherwise do what I did, I sold some things on ebay to pay for my first editor then let the income from the book pay for the second one, by book three I was well into profit    If you're serious then you need to think long term.  Fix it professionally if you can then you can stop worrying about it and get writing again sooner rather than later x


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

Just wondering if anyone thinks the free grammarly plugin would be worth it here as an interim measure? I use it and know that it's teaching me where to appropriately use commas and picks up a lot of stuff a basic spell check misses. 

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## ShadyWolfBoy (Sep 23, 2015)

Mindy54 said:


> Very weird. When I click on your link Glynn, it does take me to correct version. But, when I click to download the kindle version on that page, it redirects me to the other (bad) book.
> 
> Are you seeing the same thing?


... oh Amazon.

I was only looking at the paperback - this is one of the few things I wouldn't buy an ebook for.

There are apparently EIGHT kindle versions. None of them appear to be the correct fourth edition version.

Buy the paperback?


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2015)

SamAlbion said:


> If you can't yourself find these "garbled sentences or incorrect word usages the reviewer references", then maybe they don't exist. Maybe.
> 
> Don't give up!


Right! Reviewers are not always infallible.


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Excellent points! Thank you guys


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## Mindy54 (Oct 26, 2015)

Life is good! Just wanted to let all you helpful people know I hired Mr. Tom Shutt, editor at Main Line Editing, to help me and the updated version has gone live   I couldn't be more pleased with his work.

I might have quit my precious hobby if it wasn't for all the helpful advice and encouraging words I received here on KBoards. So here's a huge virtual hug, along with a sincere thank you, to everyone from the bottom of my heart. 

PS. Especially you, JTanner! You are greatly appreciated. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to repay your kindness.  

Mindy
(Posted in original post also)


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