# A Disgruntled Librarian's Take on the Amazon/Overdrive Issue



## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

_I've seen this issue raised on Facebook, but here's a librarian's take on privacy issues with Amazon & Overdrive & their library interface. Personally, I don't have an issue with it as a consumer, but she certainly does._

"Libraries Got Screwed by Amazon and Overdrive

October 18, 2011

Below is my 10 minute rant about why the Kindle format lending from Overdrive is anti-user, anti-intellectual freedom, anti-library, and something that all librarians should be aware of and disturbed by. Amazon and Overdrive did wrong by us, and we bent over and took it. Watch to learn more. Warning: some language may be NSFW.
Note: Hopefully the video will stay up this time. I posted it last night and it was flagged and taken down within an hour. I'll give you two guesses which company was behind that&#8230;"

http://librarianinblack.net/librarianinblack/2011/10/wegotscrewed.html


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## Seleya (Feb 25, 2011)

In my usual bookstore they know what I buy, make suggestions regarding books I might interested on and so on and so forth, should I request a memory swipe of the personnell every time I leave?  

Honestly it feels eccessive to me, if one cares this much about personal privacy then it's better to stay 'off the grid' entirely, no internet.

...Oh, and no credit card or cell-phone either.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

Some of the responses are interesting. One uses the "First world problem" canard, which basically says "How can you concern yourself with X when Y is so much worse". Perhaps Y really is worse, but that doesn't address whether X is an issue. It's like saying "how can you be concerned about a broken leg when there are people who are much more injured?" or "how can you be concerned about having your house robbed when you still have more even after being robbed than many people in the world do?" In triage, yes, the most injured get first priority. But the less injured aren't told to go home and forget about it. And the fact that there are people who are extremely poor doesn't mean that someone who's house is robbed is told to go home. And further, the people who use the First World Problem fallacy often aren't themselves doing a thing about Third World Problems, and complain just as much about their own problems - which are themselves First World Problems - as does anyone else.

Then there are the "don't worry about privacy, you can trust Big Brother!" posts. One poster accused librarians of being "nannies" for being concerned about readers privacy rights. History has shown that we have every reason to be concerned about privacy, even if we can trust people today, we may not be able to tomorrow. There have been times and places where reading the wrong books can get you in a lot of trouble. Just because today you can safely read what you wish doesn't mean you will be able to do in the future. I'm glad we have librarians keeping an eye out for threats, they see things that the rest of us do not.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

QuantumIguana said:


> Then there are the "don't worry about privacy, you can trust Big Brother!" posts. One poster accused librarians of being "nannies" for being concerned about readers privacy rights. History has shown that we have every reason to be concerned about privacy, even if we can trust people today, we may not be able to tomorrow. There have been times and places where reading the wrong books can get you in a lot of trouble. Just because today you can safely read what you wish doesn't mean you will be able to do in the future. I'm glad we have librarians keeping an eye out for threats, they see things that the rest of us do not.


I suppose the issue seems moot to me because Amazon already knows what my family is reading because of what we've bought. So does B&N. So does Sony & Kobo - I've picked up books from them all. So does Adobe Digital Editions, for that matter. And it's not like Amazon's hiding anything - they state right up front that any notes, etc, you take are saved in case you buy the book or check it out again - it's a pretty big clue.

One response that interested me was the one where a librarian says she's tempted to tell patrons to use the pirate sites. And another that said "And here we are, handing over private and personal information of our patrons to Amazon.com- how ridiculous!!" What information does she think they're "handing over" that Amazon doesn't already have, aside from interest in a particular book? Not to mention that if I didn't want Amazon to know I was reading the book, I wouldn't be getting it via the Kindle/Overdrive route.

I just can't get that excited about it myself, but did find it interesting, along with the folks who have their knickers in a wad over the Silk browser on the Fire.


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## KayakerNC (Oct 7, 2009)

My take:
The sky is falling!   
Maybe we should all wear our tin-foil hats to the library.  Sheesh!


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## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

She's waaaaaay over concerned.  Maybe everyone except she knows any info that flies through the air or crawls through the wires is stored some place.  Get over it.


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## cork_dork_mom (Mar 24, 2011)

Amazon recommends popcorn flavors for me (purchased a popcorn popper for a friend).   Should I be alarmed?


P.S.
I like the tin foil hat wearing to the library - being a librarian I could use the chuckle!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I only listened to half of it, and I think she's not being unreasonable from her point of view.  Privacy issues and library records have often come under siege.  However, I actually like that there is going to be a list of books I've checked from the library that I can access fairly easily, as sometimes I can't remember what the name of the book I checked out a month ago or last year was.  So there are plusses and negatives.  I'm going to go with the plusses.  

Betsy


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## Hoosiermama (Dec 28, 2009)

I guess I haven't really thought about the privacy issue with Amazon remembering my purchases. I like it from the standpoint that I tend to be an impulse buyer, and authors change the look of the cover, and Amazon knows that I already bought that book. I can't tell you how many times I used to see a paperback and think "oooh, that looks good", scan a few pages, and buy it...only to realize part way through that the story sounds vaguely familiar , or else find the book already at home . 

At least this way, I KNOW i read a book, even if my old brain can't remember it.


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## LaraAmber (Feb 24, 2009)

Was she not paying attention?

If you have a Kindle, the fact that Amazon knows what books you bought is a big no-duh.  That's how you get your books.  They weren't hiding in the slightest that they would know what library books you checked out.  The "you could buy it later and not lose your notes" was a publicly mentioned feature.   

Oh, and Amazon has almost zip say in what prices libraries get charged for ebooks.  That's the publishers.

If one was reading books that might cause one to worry about repercussions, one would realize that sending electronic notes to the cloud and downloading the books online might not be the smartest idea.  Most library patrons don't need to worry about the thought police banging down their door, they are reading romance novels and spy thrillers, not planning to overthrow the government.   

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that when I used my local library, they had a file listing every book I ever checked out.  But because it's a local library instead of a server farm, it's magically safer and could never be breached or misused.  I actually trust Amazon more because they have the money to throw at the most advanced firewalls and encryption programs and random checks to make sure their employees aren't misusing data.  They can also invest in programming to have personal data (mailing address, email address, credit card numbers) all sectioned off from "account 1238994203-2 has access to the following books" but can still have a staff member set up the "hey your book is expiring" email without that person also having access to your home address or credit card number.  Tiny library system with limited budgets and staff, not so much.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

It would be tinfoil hattery if it there wasn't a very long history of people in authority being very interested in what books people read. Perhaps it isn't as issue today, but it has been in the past and could easily be an issue in the future. 

Oh, wait, I forgot to worship Amazon. There, it is all better.


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

I understand being concerned over privacy issues but what is the difference between Amazon knowing this information because I bought a book through them or because I checked out a book through them?  

It seems to me that a person who is worried about Amazon knowing this information wouldn't have a Kindle in the first place.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

I just can't bring myself to care. Amazon's servers know what I have bought......do people buy a lot of things they are ashamed of?  I can see that the info may be interesting in aggregate or for my "you might like this too" ads (which are automated and one one at Amazon actually saw it or cared) but I don't think I am important enough that anyone is going care that Chad himself just bought a cast iron skillet. I don't have anything to hide. I guess I could see that people who have a lot to hide would care...but then they should pay cash for everything. If you are buying your cast iron skillet to bash your neighbor's head make sure you pay cash and don't buy from Amazon so they can't track you.....oh wait...buy it from Amazon cuz I want you to get caught...

I can't think of anything "private" I'm worried about there. Call me up and I'll tell you all about the last book I read. Maybe people should stop leaving reviews because that's admitting that you bought or read that book.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I think it's a tempest in a teapot. If you aren't comfortable letting Amazon know what books you read or check out, you shouldn't use their service. Put on your fake beard and Groucho Marx glasses and buy your books for cash from a used book store. (But don't ever go to the same store twice!)

Anyone using a Kindle has already made that decision. And I think it's pretty cool that Amazon sends you a reminder that your book is about to expire, and gives you the opportunity to buy it or check it out again. An advertisement...good heavens! What is the world coming to when an American can get exposed to an advertisement?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I will say that a lot of people probably don't think about the fact that Amazon knows EVERYTHING you've ever bought from them. (They've, literally, got 15 years worth of purchases on me!) People mostly like the accurate recommendations, or laugh when amazon gets it wrong. But they don't really think about the fact that their buying history _does_ say something about them. Not that I know what! 

I'm waiting for one of the L&O:CSI shows to use someone's "major online retailer" purchases to collar a bad guy. 

For me, I am aware of the risks and privacy issues. And am willing to take the bad with the good, as Betsy said. Will it be important someday that in August of 2006 I bought a plastic 'case' for a 4" knife . . . .but _there's no record of me ever buying a knife!_ 

I don't, I admit, have a lot of sympathy for someone who, say, enjoys the fact that they can look up a receipt on Amazon from 3 years ago to prove something for a tax deduction, but then whine about 'lack of privacy'. I guess I figure you can't have it both ways. I've heard these people talk. . . . I generally stay out of such 'discussions'.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

Do people buy things they are ashamed of? It has nothing to do with being "ashamed". Throughout history, there have been books that can get you in trouble. Maybe they won't get you in trouble now, but you can't tell if books will get you in trouble in the future. Terry Pratchett said (I paraphrase slightly) that the "the innocent have plenty to fear. Mostly from people who say things like 'the innocent have nothing to fear.'"

I'm not so concerned about what Amazon knows about my books as I am with who Amazon might tell what books I have. How much resistance Amazon puts up to such requests is important. Our attitudes we have toward this influences how companies behave.


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## mikeschr (Dec 7, 2010)

QuantumIguana said:


> It would be tinfoil hattery if it there wasn't a very long history of people in authority being very interested in what books people read. Perhaps it isn't as issue today, but it has been in the past and could easily be an issue in the future.
> 
> Oh, wait, I forgot to worship Amazon. There, it is all better.


Yes, the comment about authority is true, but you'd have to be an idiot not to realize that getting library books through Amazon would mean that Amazon knows what books you've borrowed. The checkout process takes you to Amazon's web site, for heaven's sake.
They already know what books I've bought - where's the difference?
If that were a worry of mine, I wouldn't get the book via the Kindle in the first place.

I don't see anyone worshipping Amazon in this thread - just people who've thought the question through, and realize this doesn't add any privacy risk that isn't already there.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2011)

My amazon account was never caught red-handed gossiping in public about me.

My local library staff, on the other hand?  Yeah.  And I pay their salaries.


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## Carolyn62 (Sep 5, 2011)

I'm not sure it they are on Kindle, but I suggest reading John Twelve Hawks' books Scarey!


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

QuantumIguana said:


> I'm not so concerned about what Amazon knows about my books as I am with who Amazon might tell what books I have. How much resistance Amazon puts up to such requests is important. Our attitudes we have toward this influences how companies behave.


At the risk of being an Amazon worshiper, they've resisted it up to now (N.C. case). Cynics will say it was to avoid collecting taxes - and that no doubt played a part, but it seems to me that they also realize it's in Amazon's best interest to protect their customers as well, because they want to keep those customers.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

I've got a Kindle (as most of us do) - so Amazon knows what I'm reading; my public library posts all over the place that all of their records are subject to Homeland Security requests & my library keeps a record of what I've checked out.

I'd have to go DTB & cash to be able to drop off the grid & keep my reading choices private. My sister & brother-in-law only buy DVDs & DTBs so as to not let others make a record.

And I've read John Twelve Hawks stuff!


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## NightGoat (Feb 2, 2011)

Shall I wait for the Men in Black to burst in, kick over my Amazon alter and haul me off to Gitmo... uh, I got to go.


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## Seamonkey (Dec 2, 2008)

"Premium prices".. I thought that the publishers were setting the prices, not Amazon.. so complain to them.

And to be honest, I belong to the group of people known as KINDLE OWNERS and I've chosen to play by their rules and even have a special offers kindle on order, so I guess I accept that they will be sending advertising my way.

I dont consider myself to be much of a "library patron" and haven't for years let libraries dictate what is available to me or to protect me from the evils of the world.

As for the BUY button.. well of course they would make that the most prominent feature.  And I'm quite capable of avoiding the purchase of a book I just read for free.  And thanks to AMAZON, if I did accidentally purchase, they would probably make it incredibly easy for me to back out of the deal.

I've been online for a long time and long ago realized that any site (including Kindleboards) that throws local advertising my way, or even more directed advertising (Amazon, AOL, etc) my way, has to have collected information on me.  I have resisted Facebook, but that's a personal choice.

As for notes.. make them on paper and Amazon cannot "read and store" them..  
This librarian is clearly angry.. and I get what she's saying, but does she really think Kindle owners don't know what the situation is already? (or maybe she's worried about app users?)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

While her video seems to be a little overly dramatic to me, I think she has a valid point from a librarian's point of view.  And it would suffice to let patrons know that Amazon will be keeping track of what they read outside the library's own records.  And then the patrons can make the decision for themselves, as we all have.  Nothing wrong with being an informed consumer.

Betsy


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## rlkubi (Dec 7, 2009)

Who cares?  Surprise she is from CA.


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## clawdia (Jul 6, 2010)

I think it falls into the category of people who basically need to 'get a grip'.  Once you start prowling the internet, much less buying on the internet, there's more information available in what's basically a public format than most people ever consider.  Privacy can only be protected if one stays off line, pays bills in cash, doesn't use a savings card at the local grocery store (and, again, pays in cash), etc.

The world has evolved into a place where the idea of Big Brother pales in comparison to the reality in which we live.
You either deal with it, or you buy a piece of land (for cash, from a private individual) and keep your property entirely off the grid, along with all the other things I've already mentioned and then some.  There used to be talk of how everyone in a small town knows everyone else's business - true then, and true now - but now the fact is that, if someone is looking hard enough and looking in the right places, anyone in the world can access data that will clue them in on anyone else's business.

As a collective society, we - however inadvertently - decided to trade privacy for convenience a while back.  It's too late now to choose the path not taken because we've already taken the path of least resistance.

Would I prefer to be that isolationist who lives in the middle of a forest in a home I built myself using solar and/or wind technology, who has no bank account and shops anonymously in towns 100 miles from home?  Sure I would.
Can I afford to do it?  Not a chance.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

The video is not working so I can't watch it. Based on the comments I am going to yawn and not worry about much.

I understand why a Librarian would be worried about privacy issues. It is a slippery slope and Librarians have found themselves on the frontline of the privacy battle many, many times. Then again, if the consumer is not aware that their purchases are being tracked they are at the very least highly uninformed. 

Everything we do digitally is tracked and filed some place. The Government can subpeona (sp) those records. Companies use those records to make recommendations. 

We can complain about Amazon but the reality is that if we want to decrease how frequently we are tracked we should stop using the internet, credit cards, cell phones, home phones, and the vast majority of modern devices which make our lives so much more efficient. I am not willing to do that so I guess I'll just have to deal with the fact that Amazon will be keeping track of books I check out of the library.

Just like they keep track of the books I buy for my Kindle

And my Christmas shopping

And my personal shopping.


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## NanD (May 4, 2011)

OK. I was a litttle curious about this. I'm reading a series that I'm checking out of the library. I returned a book last week and it still showed in my archives/library. There is a check box with actions next to it. It offers "remove from library" or "purchase the book". I picked "remove from library"..Guess what. Nothing shows now.

So I don't see what the big deal is. Other than, if you don't want Amazon to track what you buy/borrow, don't get it from Amazon.


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## wvpeach (Jul 12, 2010)

This librarian is obviously not thinking this issue through. For instance she complains that it's a marketing tool that Amazon sends out a warning notice a couple of days ahead of the loan being up and reminds people that they can buy this book if they would like and keep any notes and highlights they made in it. That might be extremely important for a student who is writing a paper on the book and needs more time and the option to keep any notes they made in the book. 
 Amazon has to store those notes and since that library book does not become a permanent part of the persons library unless purchased, why would Amazon take up server space storing notes on a library book a person may never pick up again let alone look at their notes on the book. Why would Amazon use server space to keep notes a person may never use again?? Just think of all the book club people that may make some notes on a borrowed library book and never use that again. If Amazon just started keeping all those notes they would use vast amounts of server space for very little value. 

  IE They let people know if you want us to keep your notes buy a copy of this book. 

 Secondly the choice of language alone this so called librarian uses is enough reason to make one wonder about her credibility. No need to be vulgar, and certainly librarians should have a better use of language than this person exhibits.


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## KingAl (Feb 21, 2011)

wvpeach said:


> Amazon has to store those notes and since that library book does not become a permanent part of the persons library unless purchased, why would Amazon take up server space storing notes on a library book a person may never pick up again let alone look at their notes on the book. Why would Amazon use server space to keep notes a person may never use again?? Just think of all the book club people that may make some notes on a borrowed library book and never use that again. If Amazon just started keeping all those notes they would use vast amounts of server space for very little value.
> 
> IE They let people know if you want us to keep your notes buy a copy of this book.


Amazon DOES store your notes, since they will show up if you ever buy the book in the future.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

I got half way through that before I turned it off. 

Someone needs to get some help. Some serious, serious help.


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## Seamonkey (Dec 2, 2008)

I realize I haven't been in a brick & mortar library for years but I never saw a librarian wearing handcuffs for a necklace.  Just saying..


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## teri (Sep 13, 2010)

wvpeach said:


> Secondly the choice of language alone this so called librarian uses is enough reason to make one wonder about her credibility. No need to be vulgar, and certainly librarians should have a better use of language than this person exhibits.


I agree, I'm no prude but I have to admit that the language she used made it hard to take her seriously.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Like or dislike the woman, let's discuss her issue and not her issues as you see them.  Either her argument has merit to you or it doesn't.  The rest is irrelevant, thanks.

Betsy


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## wvpeach (Jul 12, 2010)

KingAl said:


> Amazon DOES store your notes, since they will show up if you ever buy the book in the future.


 Not on library books, thus the notice. They let you know they will be keeping the notes long enough to allow you time to buy the book. Should the loan expire and the book is not in the library you lose the notes. Thus this notice the crazy Librarian with a chip in her shoulders is important for some people. Kid with a term paper trying to save some money may want to try to extend the loan ( which I do not think you can do with library books at this point. ) failing that they may need to buy the book to have their notes saved.

Amazon cannot just save every untethered note out there. I would imagine that little old ladies in book clubs will line up for library lending. Just imagine the notes thousands of ladies in book clubs might make in a library book and then let the loan expire and never get that book or ie buy it. You'd quickly have millions X millions of notes sitting untethered to any book in use in a actual Amazon customer library. That would use server space and no big company takes that lightly as server space and cloud storage costs money not to mention the money your losing because you could have put that storage to better use.

Nope I do not believe library book notes are being kept for any length of time past the loan expiration date - unless the book is purchased and becomes a part of the customers regular Amazon library. Thus the message this nutty Librarian lady is complaining about.


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

wvpeach said:


> Not on library books, thus the notice. They let you know they will be keeping the notes long enough to allow you time to buy the book. Should the loan expire and the book is not in the library you lose the notes. Thus this notice the crazy Librarian with a chip in her shoulders is important for some people. Kid with a term paper trying to save some money may want to try to extend the loan ( which I do not think you can do with library books at this point. ) failing that they may need to buy the book to have their notes saved.


Nope, Amazon keeps the notes and highlights as long as you do not delete the book from your "manage your kindle" page.

Check out The 4th question on the FAQs

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=amb_link_357502782_1?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200747550&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-9&pf_rd_r=0ZX8GCFVE31DGBE0CRE4&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=1318658762&pf_rd_i=1000718231


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## wvpeach (Jul 12, 2010)

I would think Betsy that people using a potty mouth type of language would be perfectly valid when considering their argument. 

  Lets face some facts here this lady uses some language that is both offensive, confrontational and over the top. 

  She may find it perfectly acceptable for instance to say she is " pissed " off over and over again to herself. But I certainly hope she refrains from talking like that around children at the library.  

  And she may very well be extremely " pissed" off as she is fond of saying. 

  Maybe she should go get " pissed off " at something that has some merit.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I understand her concerns, but her problem is that Kindle owners -- as we see her -- don't share her concerns. She wonders how to tell her patrons and then comes up with very alarmist terminology. It's as simple as: _ Amazon's practice of collecting data, which you're probably familiar with from purchases you've made with them in the past, is still in practice with library rentals. If this is a concern for you, and you need greater privacy, you might want to consider a different device. _

I loved the convenience of using my Kindle for library books, including the notification. I meant to try it once and liked it so much that I borrowed a second book. The first book? Bought it. (Darn you, Amazon!)

Anyhow, I'm quite aware Amazon knows more about me than anyone else on the planet.


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## wvpeach (Jul 12, 2010)

kindlegrl81 said:


> Nope, Amazon keeps the notes and highlights as long as you do not delete the book from your "manage your kindle" page.
> 
> Check out The 4th question on the FAQs
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=amb_link_357502782_1?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200747550&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-9&pf_rd_r=0ZX8GCFVE31DGBE0CRE4&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=1318658762&pf_rd_i=1000718231


 I stand corrected, and that is awesome. Still the premise of my original post still stands. I am sure Amazon has a reason for notifying folks that the loan is about to expire besides just selling books. And even if the reason is purely to sell books. So? If she can explain to me why a company would not offer a sale of a loaner then maybe her rant would have some merit. Amazon is not making money on library lending so its a free service, one that I am sure some buying the book after the loan will help them re compass their costs on for storing all that info.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> Anyhow, I'm quite aware Amazon knows more about me than anyone else on the planet.


No question.

The issue is whether Amazon will thus treat you better after it achieves world domination.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Elk said:


> No question.
> 
> The issue is whether Amazon will thus treat you better after it achieves world domination.


When I sell the rest of you out for getting my Kindle 20 a week before the rest of you? Yes, I believe that they will.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

tkkenyon said:


> Yeah, the part about Amazon emailing you with notices is kind of weird, now that I think about it.
> 
> It is weird that our local, public library system, supported by our local tax dollars, is being outsourced to a corporation, which is a private entity (oops, _person,_ a corporation is a private _person,_) and thus governed by different rules and regulations.
> 
> ...


I find the reminder to be a convenience to the customer, not anything "weird". There've been times I'd wished I'd gotten a reminder about an ePub library book - 3 days is time to kick myself in the rear to get most any book read if I'm not done with it yet.

Library eBooks have been "outsourced" from the get-go - to Overdrive, Netlibrary/EBSCO, and there's at least one other company out there.

And as far as the video being "pulled", it's been there for over a week now, so maybe it was a youtube glitch rather than a pull, I'm guessing she's much less of important to Amazon and/or Overdrive than she'd like to think.


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## RedGolum (Nov 2, 2011)

If you use an ereader, your choices are part of the product the seller of the ebook supplies to publishers.

If you check out a library book, the government can request that the records of the books you checked out be sent in. That included ebooks, DTB, and websites visited at the library computer.

Local libraries may not be complaint, but that doesn't mean the State can't force them to release those records, or start keeping them. 

The time to start being concerned was over twenty years ago.  Bit late now.


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## clawdia (Jul 6, 2010)

RedGolum said:


> The time to start being concerned was over twenty years ago. Bit late now.


Exactly.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Elk said:


> No question.
> 
> The issue is whether Amazon will thus treat you better after it achieves world domination.


I am starting to appease them now. I have bought many a Kindle, recommended Kindles to tons of folks, and buy books for my Mother and I.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

ProfCrash said:


> I am starting to appease them now. I have bought many a Kindle, recommended Kindles to tons of folks, and buy books for my Mother and I.


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## caracara (May 23, 2010)

"Kindle has allowed Amazon to harvest all this borrowing data..."
Last I checked Amazon created the Kindle, it is their device. Duh Amazon knows what the Kindle is doing!

"jeopardizes intellectual freedom" "reading rights"
Last I checked Amazon was a cooperation, not a government run entity, meaning they are allowed to filter what they don't want to sell, meaning there is no jeopardizing going on!

"charging premium prices for digital content" right after you bad mouthed the advertisement to buy the book from Amazon...
I would hate to see the price is Amazon didn't put there little ad in there!


So y'all are saying I should buy more stuff from Amazon, so I'm safe in the future?! OK! Will start immediately! =)


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

caracara said:


> "charging premium prices for digital content" right after you bad mouthed the advertisement to buy the book from Amazon...
> I would hate to see the price is Amazon didn't put there little ad in there!


Didn't watch the video so I'm not completely certain where this quote comes from. . . .but it seems to be complaining about what Amazon charges for a book (which you may want to buy after having borrowed it from the library). Well, Amazon is not setting the prices for most of the books. The publishers are.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

Haven't been able to watch the video either. No one has mentioned what the librarian says about Overdrive. Does Overdrive keep copies as well? Having to use Adobe Digital Editions to sideload onto the Nook, I would imagine that there is something somewhere, most likely on my PC, that leaves a digital footprint.

When she complains about prices, is it regarding how much the patron to pay to buy a copy of the book or how much the library has to pay? If its the latter, wouldn't Overdrive be the one setting the price? Which still might be set by the publisher - I don't know what the arrangement is.

As far as the e-mail notice, I too appreciate it. My bricks & morter library sends an e-mail when the book is past due. While they are generous to to give you a week before fees begin, I'd still rather do things the right way - return on time, renew before its past due, etc...


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## Tatiana (Aug 20, 2010)

tkkenyon said:


> Yeah, the part about Amazon emailing you with notices is kind of weird, now that I think about it.


My local library sends me an email reminder notice three days before my DTB, tapes, DVD, cd's etc. are due. I've always appreciated it since it alelrts me to finish what I've borrowed before the return date. I look at the notice from Amazon in the same way.


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

I can't believe some people actually think Amazon sending out an expiration notice is a bad thing    I personally love when companies send me out reminders that a payment is due or something is about to expire.


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## bordercollielady (Nov 21, 2008)

I just responded on the blog.. Give me a break.... its obvious she is anti-Kindle.  Nobody forces anyone to have a Kindle.. and maybe others are concerned,  but there is nothing on my Kindle that I care if others know about..  I don't live my life that way.  And all of us are used to Amazon's "sale" pitches.. geez - just don't push the button!!  sorry - but it really hit me the wrong way...    Tired of the Nanny state.. I don't need someone to tell me what's good for me.

Now what frustrates me - is how Google ads have highjacked IE's back arrow.... thats something to complain about!


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## howyoudoin (Aug 26, 2011)

One comment on her site hit home.

It's a disgruntled librarian worried that her job might become obsolete.

I see no reason why a prejudiced and opinionated person with a propensity to use the internet as a chronicle of her professional life deserves to be entrusted with my data any more than Amazon does.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

howyoudoin said:


> One comment on her site hit home.
> 
> It's a disgruntled librarian worried that her job might become obsolete.
> 
> I see no reason why a prejudiced and opinionated person with a propensity to use the internet as a chronicle of her professional life deserves to be entrusted with my data any more than Amazon does.


What about that comment "hit home"? Even if you could conclude that she was scared about being out out of a job, it is an ad hominem fallacy to dismiss what she is saying. That she may have some other motives does not necessarily mean she was wrong. Some people are too eager for the end of libraries.

Prejudiced? She has a different opinion than you do. She might be wrong, but that doesn't mean she is prejudiced.

Opinionated? What in the world is wrong with having an opinion? Should we only listen to the opinions of those who don't have opinions? Or should we instead listen to only your opinion?

And why in the world should a "propensity to use the internet as a chronicle of her professional life" be any sort of disqualifier?


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

> Tired of the Nanny state.. I don't need someone to tell me what's good for me.


What nanny state? There's no nanny state involved. This isn't the state, it's just one person's opinion.



> Now what frustrates me - is how Google ads have highjacked IE's back arrow.... thats something to complain about!


I seem to recall that nobody is forcing you to use IE...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

bordercollielady said:


> Now what frustrates me - is how Google ads have highjacked IE's back arrow.... thats something to complain about!


bcl-

is that something that is happening to you only while on KB? we had another question about it.

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

And a reminder to discuss the issues posed by the librarian and to avoid personal comments, thanks.

Betsy


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

QuantumIguana said:


> Some people are too eager for the end of libraries.


There are those actively pursuing and desirous of the end of libraries?

Certainly there are those that would choose something else given limited available public funding for all services, but there is an anti-library faction?


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> bcl-
> 
> is that something that is happening to you only while on KB? we had another question about it.
> 
> Betsy


It also happens to me, I thought it was something else work messed around with. I'll try and pay attention to see if it happens other places as well. I want to say its happened on Yahoo News, but I'm not 100%.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Do you think she's happy about the new lending directly from Amazon? She'll have to give less of those speeches about Nosy Rosie Ammy that she's worried about.  

You know, I disagree with her, think that most Kindle owners have already dealt with how they feel about Amazon knowing what they read, but I can appreciate that she's out there asking the questions and thinking about the issues.


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## mikeschr (Dec 7, 2010)

Elk said:


> There are those actively pursuing and desirous of the end of libraries?
> 
> Certainly there are those that would choose something else given limited available public funding for all services, but there is an anti-library faction?


Certain fringe groups think libraries are "socialist".
http://blog.libraryjournal.com/annoyedlibrarian/2011/10/10/the-rage-to-defund-libraries-goes-off-the-deep-end/


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

MichelleR said:


> You know, I disagree with her, think that most Kindle owners have already dealt with how they feel about Amazon knowing what they read, but I can appreciate that she's out there asking the questions and thinking about the issues.


I agree with this. . . .but it sure seems like she's gone off half-cocked without really thinking things through before ranting. . . . .

But then, I'm always a bit skeptical when people are just a bit too passionately _against_ something. "Methinks thou dost protest too much."


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

She seems to have tied Amazon's Kindle library program in with other library & privacy issues going on in California.  It's not uncommon for people to see everything through the lenses of their own issues.

I'm thinking just about everything that can be said on this one has been said...surely there's another topic we can beat to death for awhile?


Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> She seems to have tied Amazon's Kindle library program in with other library & privacy issues going on in California. It's not uncommon for people to see everything through the lenses of their own issues.
> 
> I'm thinking just about everything that can be said on this one has been said...surely there's another topic we can beat to death for awhile?
> 
> ...


I agree. . .it's probably about time to start stressing about when the Fires will be billed and when the shipping status will change and whether or not they'll ship in time for anyone to get them ON release day. . . . .and I think there are one or two threads about that around here somewhere. 

(Mine has not yet been charged to my card.)


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## tinytoy (Jun 15, 2011)

Meh.  This gets a big ol' WHO CARES from me.  If I were concerned about privacy and insistent that Amazon not know what I am reading than I would not own a Kindle, would not borrow e-books, nor would I purchase any books from Amazon.  I suppose I'd buy my books from the used book store, paying with cash only, disguise clad.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm thinking just about everything that can be said on this one has been said...surely there's another topic we can beat to death for awhile?


So what did you name your Kindle?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

"Disgruntled Librarian."

Betsy


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## PhillyGuy (Dec 18, 2010)

Intellectual freedom?

What about the intellectual freedom of people who are living from paycheck to paycheck and couldn't easily buy an eReader? The moment libraries started with eBooks, regardless of format, they were making a decision to favor the convenience of the middle class over the maintenance of a wide variety of reading materials available to the poor. This isn't just theory. I've seen a big reduction in the nonfiction hardcover selection at our nearby smallish public library. Of course, this is due partly to the recession, but eBooks have to be a factor as well.

As far as privacy is concerned, a wonderful librarian, who likes to chat with patrons about what they are about to read, knows a heck of lot more about what I read than anyone at any commercial company.

About a year ago, our library wiped out the on-line history of every book I had ordered on inter-library loan over many years. What about asking whether I want privacy before you give it to me? I would say, no, please let me see my reading history, and if you want to look over my shoulder, go ahead! 

I know I am different from many on the board in that I don't care too much whether a book is paper or on eInk. Now, I do prefer the Kindle to paper newspapers.


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## bordercollielady (Nov 21, 2008)

QuantumIguana said:


> What nanny state? There's no nanny state involved. This isn't the state, it's just one person's opinion.
> 
> *** Yes -its one person's opinion that I should live in fear of Amazon's "anti" privacy activities. But says she wants everyone to rise up and fight this conspiracy. That's a nanny state... when one person or group thinks they have the answer for everyone. They don't.
> 
> ...


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## bordercollielady (Nov 21, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> bcl-
> 
> is that something that is happening to you only while on KB? we had another question about it.
> 
> Betsy


It happens on KB - but not just here.. I think it is related to using Google Toolbar.. I like the toolbar but I'm about ready to disable it. I've tried some fixes I've found but none of them seem to work permanently.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

I'm aware of it and there's nothing wrong with a librarian (or anyone else) talking about it because it is an issue for some people.  Educating people about what is happening with data is never a bad thing.

I'm not all that thrilled that my credit card gets "frozen" if the credit card company determines I am in an unusual place or I make an unusual purchase.  As someone said, if I want to protect my privacy I'd have to be off-grid and use cash.  In reality the books I read is the least of my privacy concerns, whether it's from a library or Amazon.  

Thanks for sharing.  It's always good to be informed.


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## fuschiahedgehog (Feb 23, 2010)

PhillyGuy said:


> Intellectual freedom?
> 
> What about the intellectual freedom of people who are living from paycheck to paycheck and couldn't easily buy an eReader? The moment libraries started with eBooks, regardless of format, they were making a decision to favor the convenience of the middle class over the maintenance of a wide variety of reading materials available to the poor. This isn't just theory. I've seen a big reduction in the nonfiction hardcover selection at our nearby smallish public library. Of course, this is due partly to the recession, but eBooks have to be a factor as well.


The same could be said about other digital content - my library has tons of DVDs, CDs, etc.


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## bordercollielady (Nov 21, 2008)

MariaESchneider said:


> . Educating people about what is happening with data is never a bad thing.


But that assumes that the person being "educated" is ignorant of the situation and needs to be enlightened. The point I'm making is that maybe some of us know what happens with data (I've been in the IT industry for 34 years) and doesn't feel uncomfortable about it. Some of us aren't worried about Big Brother.


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## PhillyGuy (Dec 18, 2010)

fuschiahedgehog said:


> The same could be said about other digital content - my library has tons of DVDs, CDs, etc.


This is a good point. And before CD's, there were tapes. And before that, phonograph records.

However -- there is a difference. If the library is going to loan music at all, the patron has to have a device to play it. But with books, they have a choice as to whether to buy a book everyone can read, or only some.


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## samanthawarren (May 1, 2011)

My grandmother tends to get righteous when she sees news stories where the government did such-and-such to track this-or-that person and there's a question as to whether they should have gotten a warrant first or some other legal issue. What I always tell her seems to fit very well in this discussion: If you're so concerned about the government following you, you shouldn't be doing things that would make the government want to follow you in the first place. Contrary to popular belief, the government doesn't have infinite manpower. They're not following the purchasing habits of every person in the world. But there are bad people out there, and if we expect protection from attacks like 9/11, we have to allow certain concessions. It's just the way it is. I'm not worried about Amazon tracking my lending habits. My family, maybe for some books , but definitely not Amazon.



PhillyGuy said:


> However -- there is a difference. If the library is going to loan music at all, the patron has to have a device to play it. But with books, they have a choice as to whether to buy a book everyone can read, or only some.


There isn't a difference, really. The same issue came into play when CDs were becoming popular and tapes were on their way out. The libraries had to choose whether to purchase CDs or tapes (soon, maybe even MP3s), DVDs or VHS. They can't be played on the same devices. This isn't a new battle. And it's not even a "some people can't read ebooks" problem in a lot of places. Most of the local libraries here have a Kindle or two that can be borrowed to read ebooks.


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## fuschiahedgehog (Feb 23, 2010)

PhillyGuy said:


> This is a good point. And before CD's, there were tapes. And before that, phonograph records.
> 
> However -- there is a difference. If the library is going to loan music at all, the patron has to have a device to play it. But with books, they have a choice as to whether to buy a book everyone can read, or only some.


On the other hand, people with limited mobility, vision problems, arthritic hands, etc may find the kindle/ebook versions much more accessible. And every dollar they spend on the latest blockbuster movie on DVD is also one dollar less that goes towards books that everyone can read.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

bordercollielady said:


> It happens on KB - but not just here.. I think it is related to using Google Toolbar.. I like the toolbar but I'm about ready to disable it. I've tried some fixes I've found but none of them seem to work permanently.


Happens to me and I don't have any toolbars. Work only offers plain IE, and version 7 at that. Nothing else has been approved for use.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

bordercollielady said:


> But that assumes that the person being "educated" is ignorant of the situation and needs to be enlightened. The point I'm making is that maybe some of us know what happens with data (I've been in the IT industry for 34 years) and doesn't feel uncomfortable about it. Some of us aren't worried about Big Brother.


Well, sure. The message didn't need to be delivered quite so...vehemently.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

PhillyGuy said:


> Intellectual freedom?
> 
> What about the intellectual freedom of people who are living from paycheck to paycheck and couldn't easily buy an eReader? The moment libraries started with eBooks, regardless of format, they were making a decision to favor the convenience of the middle class over the maintenance of a wide variety of reading materials available to the poor. This isn't just theory. I've seen a big reduction in the nonfiction hardcover selection at our nearby smallish public library. Of course, this is due partly to the recession, but eBooks have to be a factor as well.
> 
> ...


 Uhm, what about the libraries that lend out Kindles as well as the books? I know there is at least one very large library in Texas that lends out the kindles (and other readers) as well as the books. There are also school libraries that have kindles for use in the library for students. This is NOT about who has money or not; it's another way of lending. If your library hasn't taken steps to make it easy to obtain digital books, talk to them about it. I did. There are usually public meetings where you can express your interest in having Kindles being lendable. My library opted against doing it, BUT they have public use computers. If you want to read digital books on the computers in the library, you can.

People who choose to buy products generally have "first advantage." But digital books are not taking away opportunity or books from those who don't have one.


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