# Mid-tier novel writer income?



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Fairly basic question... how much money do mid-tier novel writers make each month?

Are you one of them? Do you know any and can list their income? 

I'm interested mainly in those who make $30,000+ a month. How common are these types? You find a lot of lower income novel writers (around 5k a month or so) and then some that are waaaaay above that and probably close to 6 figures a month. But... where are the mid-tier authors?!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I think you have a waaaayy extremely optimistic definition of mid-tier. Anyone who makes more than 30K a month is not going to be responding here. They'll be in the Bahamas.

Unless it's a typo and you mean per year?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Unless there are two typos ("$30,000+ a month" and "round 5k a month or so") the original poster has a totally unrealistic idea of what 'mid tier' authors make and what would constitute mid or lower tier income.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Since when is $360,000 a year mid-tier. Isn't middle-income like $60,000 a year (for a family)? I consider that amount of money high end. A lot of trade published authors aren't making near that. I consider $8,000 (before taxes) a high mid-tier.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> I think you have a waaaayy extremely optimistic definition of mid-tier. Anyone who makes more than 30K a month is not going to be responding here. They'll be in the Bahamas.
> 
> Unless it's a typo and you mean per year?


Yes, PER MONTH income!

What do you believe is mid-tier income for novel writers?


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## batmansero (Oct 10, 2014)

Isn't there a list somewhere in these forums regarding sales?  Could that help?


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## kirtkinkly (Oct 30, 2014)

Well, I guess that makes me below the low-tier then. Good to know.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Yes, PER MONTH income!
> 
> What do you believe is mid-tier income for novel writers?


I'm going to guess $1,500. I consider myself doing very well at $19,000 this month.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

$5000 is lower tier      

Rue


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Yes, PER MONTH income!
> 
> What do you believe is mid-tier income for novel writers?


You have GOT to be joking.

High-end: more than 100K per year

Middle: average to lower living wage in whatever country you're in. Probably more realistically anywhere upwards from $2500 a month.

Some people may even want to define a living wage higher-tier. Some people might call "middle tier" the average median income for SP writers, about which we, Hugh Howey notwithstanding, don't have a flippin' clue.

The trouble is that all SP income surveys are self-reported, and this tends to heavily over-estimate income. I've tried to answer surveys where the questions are just so irrelevant it's not funny, because you're so far out of what they expect the answers to be.

This board gives an extremely skewed view of SP earnings. There are an awful lot of SP writers, ones we never hear about, but who may lurk here, but never comment, whose earnings are in the vicinity of hundreds or less a year.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Yes, PER MONTH income!
> 
> What do you believe is mid-tier income for novel writers?


Like, $3k. 

$30k is certainly not mid-tier. That's wealthy.


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

Oh my goodness. Where are you getting your numbers from, DD? 

For me, around $2,000 a month would be "mid-tier". Over $5,000 a month is very successful. $30,000 would be... wow. Is there a tier above top tier?


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Regardless of the dollar amount, I don't consider my income to be "writer" income. I consider it "small digital publishing house" income.  

I wouldn't compare what I do as a self-publisher to what any level of trad-pub writer makes, because I don't have the same job. There's a small overlap, sure, but it's just not the same thing.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Dalya / Mimi / etc. said:


> Regardless of the dollar amount, I don't consider my income to be "writer" income. I consider it "small digital publishing house" income.
> 
> I wouldn't compare what I do as a self-publisher to what any level of trad-pub writer makes, because I don't have the same job. There's a small overlap, sure, but it's just not the same thing.


Good point, Dalya/Mimi! 

Rue

P.S. Really good to see you back on the boards.


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## David Wisehart (Mar 2, 2010)

Low: $0-$50 per month
Middle: $50-$2,000 per month
High: $2,000+ per month

Example 1: A mid-tier trad writer with one new book per year, a $10,000 advance per book, a pittance in additional royalties, and a teaching job to pay the rent.

Example 2: A mid-tier self-published writer with ten books published, each earning $100 per month, minus some regular publishing and advertising costs, and a full- or part-time job to pay the rent.

Anyone supporting themselves consistently and entirely from novel writing, whether trad or indie, is on the high end.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Yeah, I wouldn't call 30k a month mid-tier.  3-5k a month, perhaps.

But those of us earning that much aren't all in the Bahamas. We're mostly squirreling away those dollars for the low times and writing and working like crazy to keep them coming.  As DalyaMimi said, we're small businesses and publishers, not just writers. And that's a ton of work.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I have the slight suspicion the OP is toying with us. $30,000 per month is a LOT of money in any profession, especially writing, where pay is notoriously low.


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## Lovelife (Dec 15, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> I have the slight suspicion the OP is toying with us. $30,000 per month is a LOT of money in any profession, especially writing, where pay is notoriously low.


I don't think DD is messing around. I understand what he means. He just is thinking differently than a lot of others on here. I don't think he's trying to compare this money to "normal" jobs first of all. From my understanding his experience is going from $0/month to $15,000-$20,000/month in about 3-4 months time.

I think he should have explained more in the original post so people knew where he was coming from, but I honestly think because of his experience and belief that anyone can do what he did if they wanted to that his idea of low-mid-high money is different than many others on here.

I think when he thinks of top teir authors money he's thinking of Howey and Ward and so on. Though I have no idea how much they make you can get an idea that it's probably at least one year been in at least half a million. There are quite a few erotica authors that when you look at their book ranks and how many books they have and can estimate how much they are selling/borrowing you can get an idea that there are quite a few who are easily bringing in the $30k he was asking about. And plenty who are bringing in more. I don't know if they're on this forum though. I've done a lot of research recently in erotica and crunched numbers and seen quite a bit of high income.

So, I understand what he's asking and if the top tier are people like Ward and so forth then I'd even say that maybe $30k/month isn't necessarily a mid tier even. Maybe a low mid tier. I think it's just perspective here.

Of course I'm completely speculating here as I don't know DD personally and have barely talked with him.

As for my own opinion. I agree and personally think that 30k/mo is low mid tier. But, I think I'd ad more than 3 tiers to start with.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

In that case we have some serious tier inflation on this thread.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Lovelife said:


> I don't think DD is messing around. I understand what he means. He just is thinking differently than a lot of others on here. I don't think he's trying to compare this money to "normal" jobs first of all. From my understanding his experience is going from $0/month to $15,000-$20,000/month in about 3-4 months time.
> 
> I think he should have explained more in the original post so people knew where he was coming from, but I honestly think because of his experience and belief that anyone can do what he did if they wanted to that his idea of low-mid-high money is different than many others on here.
> 
> ...


Yes, that sums it up nicely 

I make X amount of money in erotica -- people say romance writers make WAAAAY more... how much is that? I've not come into contact with these 'mid-tier' authors making 30-50k+ a month for 'successful' novel writers. I know some who were making 6 figures in one month -- but where are the others? Or does the gap go from 2-5k a month or 100k-250k+ a month? Is there no mid-tier range of high 5 figure authors who are not truly 'elite' level earners?

Are you either a low-tier or lotto winner when it comes to novels?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I understand your point, dirtiestdevil. I just think I and most people on this thread take issue with your definitions. I have no figures to give you, but I'm guessing that the number of 'top-tier' earners and the number of 'mid-tier' earners as you define them are similarly small - eg you might have 100 top-tier earners and perhaps 150 mid-tier earners (if that, and even then - and without any evidence to prove it - I think that might be overstating it). 

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but FWIW I think most of the people who replied to your original $5k a month thread would probably consider themselves to be mid-tier earners, in this field at least. And if I was earning $30k a month I'd definitely be in the Bahamas now.


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## Lucas030 (Oct 14, 2014)

If you are working full time at this you can definitely increase your income by $10.000+/month within a year.

If you are more a publisher than an author you can outsource the whole work. With an investment of about $20.000 you can produce 100 books per year (short stories). I think everything above is impossibile for one person if you want to publish decent quality books.

So let's say you make about $100/book per month (some books running better than others but that's the average and my own experience; because of KU it is easy to reach this sum). 100 books * $100/month = $10.000/month or $120.000/year.

That's the absolute minimum and If your marketing skills are good (good niches, good keywords, social media platforms behind your pen names, blogs + email lists and so on) you can make much more.

And now think about the possibility to create audio books, paper backs, smartphone apps or earn money as an affiliate and so on. So you are able to build up different income streams with your already existing content.

So I think you have to differ between real authors (who are writing for passion) and publishers who want to make money.

I don't want to say that you have to publish crappy books. That doesn't work for long term. Also a $0.99 book has to deliver a decent quality.

Now think about this: If you have an income of $30.000+/month ...do you really think it is profitable to concentrate on publishing books With this income there are more profitable ways for you increase your income (like other businesses, real estates and things like that). And on this level it is also more important to split the risk with other investments to be safe for the future. Eg. I have also books in a non fiction niche and a big fan base in my back hand. For the next year I plan to sell physical products in my niche because the profit is much higher than with new ebooks. So I'm not interested in increasing my book income. And I think most people who are on this level have the same thoughts. So it would be hard to find someone above $30k, $40k or $50k who is already publishing books (besides bestselling authors).


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## Lovelife (Dec 15, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Yes, that sums it up nicely
> 
> I make X amount of money in erotica -- people say romance writers make WAAAAY more... how much is that? I've not come into contact with these 'mid-tier' authors making 30-50k+ a month for 'successful' novel writers. I know some who were making 6 figures in one month -- but where are the others? Or does the gap go from 2-5k a month or 100k-250k+ a month? Is there no mid-tier range of high 5 figure authors who are not truly 'elite' level earners?
> 
> Are you either a low-tier or lotto winner when it comes to novels?


Glad I wasn't completely off the mark. 

I have to say... I want to meet these authors making 6 figures a month! That's awesomesauce.


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## NoahPorter (Sep 15, 2013)

Some of these threads lately are insanity.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

NoahPorter said:


> Some of these threads lately are insanity.


This.



David Wisehart said:


> Low: $0-$50 per month
> Middle: $50-$2,000 per month
> High: $2,000+ per month


These look like good, albeit perhaps slightly high figures, to me.

The proportion of novelists earning $2,000+ per month from their novels must be terribly small.



David Wisehart said:


> Anyone supporting themselves consistently and entirely from novel writing, whether trad or indie, is on the high end.


Very much so - in fact well toward the top small percentage of the high end, I think.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Here are the most recent definitions1:

Cup of coffee and a muffin: >$10/month
Dinner for the family: >$100
A few bills: $101 - $1000
Car payment and some of the mortgage: $1001 - $2000
Mortgage payment: $2001 - $4000
Mortgage payment and plasma screen with surround sound: $4001 - $6000
New car: $6001 - $7500
Nicer new car: $7501 - $10000
That boat I've been wanting: $10001 - $15000
Paying for the dock I damaged with my new boat: $15001 - $20000
Screw this timeshare, let's get a vacation home: $20001 - $50000
Let's just buy the lake: $50000+

1 My butt


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Lucas030 said:


> If you are working full time at this you can definitely increase your income by $10.000+/month within a year.
> 
> If you are more a publisher than an author you can outsource the whole work. With an investment of about $20.000 you can produce 100 books per year (short stories). I think everything above is impossibile for one person if you want to publish decent quality books.
> 
> ...


You're much smarter than I am when it comes to this... ty for the brainstorming! I've got some research to do now...


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Okay, when I picked myself up off the floor from laughing, I gave this question some serious thought. (I am going to answer in £ not $ as it is easier for me)

I would consider a low level earner to be anything under 1 k per month

I would consider a comfortable mid-lister to be earning 1 - 6 k per month

Anything over that is top tier for me, with the serious elite earners making up maybe the top 2% way above that.

I've spoken in depth with a lot of indie authors about income and I have to tell you that most of the authors I have met are actually on the first tier (under 1K a month), that's pretty normal for indie authors in their first year or two (generally before they can afford to go full time). Once they go full time their income usually reflects that of an average job income, i.e. the 1 - 6 k bracket.
There are some authors on here that earn considerably more than that, and they are very generous with their knowledge, experiences, and other relevant information, but they definitely don't make up the majority.

It's a wonderful profession to be in, because unlike a regular job where you might have a structured pay scale to work up, you can work hard and suddenly find a market and be rewarded greatly. But the flip side is that it is hard work and you might not find a market and you might earn very little for quite a long time. That's the gamble....

I don't always earn enough to be a mid-tier (my definition of) or to justify it as a full time job, but luckily I don't have to. My husband also contributes to our income and so I can look after the kids and consider this a part-time job. And I make a part-time income at present which reflects that. But hey, when the kids are old enough to go to school, then I will go full time with this and hopefully bring in what I did in the pre-child days when I was a high earning professional. That's the dream anyway.

DD, I have actually found you to be a very valuable member of the writers cafe, and read all your posts with great interest, but your success is not the norm as far as I can tell from nearly two years of chatting here.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Phew! I'm glad I'm not the only one. I was starting to think I'd walked into Rich Kids of Instagram.


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

I can see where the OP is coming from, I don't think it's insanity. I've been scraping low 5 figures a month across all platforms for the last few months and it's easy for me to see there are a load of people selling more than me. Loads and loads. I'm probably in the low middle of my subgenre, and _nowhere_ near the top of my genre.

I don't know. With luck and work I hope to keep it steady, if not raise it to the mythical 30k a month, lol. But it would take many consistent months of that before I felt confident to move to the Bahamas. It's too scary and too inconsistent to count on it-- even just replacing my 13 year old car with literally the cheapest new car on the market (and on end of year sale) gave me the heebie-jeebies. I live off what I used to make at my day job with the occasional sushi splurge, but other than that, I squirrel it away.

I wonder how many authors that make a bit of money (middle end, high end) worry constantly that it'll stop at any moment. Surely someone like HM Ward feels secure?


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## Amber Rose (Jul 25, 2014)

I completely get where DD is coming from, although I guess we were thrown off by the term "Mid-tier". Certainly, there is nothing mid about $30k/month. 

But we've seen the threads about how much W Stinnet is making, and Rosalind recently said she makes (made?) $60k, and those are just two authors who choose to be public with their numbers. If you analyse the best seller lists, and see how long some INDIE books are on the top 20 or top 40, you can easily workout that A LOT of authors make this kind of money, in a given year. 

Back of napkin maths: 

$30k / $2 pay out = 15,000 books per month = 500 books per day. 

But most authors have more than one book (some even have more than one book on the bestseller list!), and they sell print copies, and they sell on other markets etc etc. Suddenly, if you are an established name, but not a household name, with 10 books in your backlist and five markets, moving 500 books per day seems feasible. 

Also, money makes money. So just because you consider yourself a writer, and that is the only work you do, does not mean that you cannot put the money you make to work for you, and make even more through investments etc, while still writing. I would consider that to be part of the $30k income.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Lionel's Mom said:


> I wonder how many authors that make a bit of money (middle end, high end) worry constantly that it'll stop at any moment. Surely someone like HM Ward feels secure?


I'm nowhere near in that league.

I've never felt "secure" about any of this income. Not my self-published book income, and not my trade-published book income (though I feel slightly less insecure about that because at least it's in more professional hands than my own - I'm a professional writer, not a professional publisher, after all).

So far, I make what most people would probably consider about "two-thirds of a living" from it. But I suspect that as it grows (I hope) and I eventually "make a living" from it (I hope) that will make me feel less, not more, secure about it. The more it increases, the bigger the disaster its disappearance would represent?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Mid-teir is relative to each of us and our own situation.

If you're talking mid-tier for ALL indies, it's going to be pretty low. 

In my brain, mid level is a very big level with lots of min-tiers. So $2000-$20000 could be considered mid-tier.


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

zoe tate said:


> So far, I make what most people would probably consider about "two-thirds of a living" from it. But I suspect that as it grows (I hope) and I eventually "make a living" from it (I hope) that will make me feel less, not more, secure about it. The more it increases, the bigger the disaster its disappearance would represent?


Well, I certainly wish you all the luck, and you seem super together (I think from other threads you've mentioned you're pretty young). 
I'm glad you wrote this because I was wondering what is wrong with me for freaking out so hard. 
When I made 2300 a month at my day job (single mom, just me and my kid, living simply) and had no savings at all, none, I never felt as insecure as I do now. In fact, I rarely worried.

I see so many people who start to make money from their writing and that lights the fire to write more and better and faster and harder, but it's almost completely crippled my output. All those old sayings like "be careful what you wish for" just taunt me all the time. I'm going to buckle down and learn about investing in the new year to hopefully get some peace of mind. I'm in my forties so feel like I need to play catch up.


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

This thread makes me want to start drinking and forget to stop.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

What Monique just said - mid-tier is going to be a relative concept. 

Personally, I'd consider a mid-lister someone who can make a living wage off of writing, but isn't going to be getting any front page NY Times stories anytime soon or buying that private jet liner.  I'd probably call someone who's making $60k - $100k / year mid-tier.  That's based on no other definition other than my own reasoning. 

On that flip side, Joe Konrath said in a recent post he considers himself a mid-lister (at least compared to Lee Child) and from what he's disclosed he's pulling in a bit more than that.

My guess is that anyone who isn't currently considered at the very top or very bottom of their genre will consider themself mid-tier...the range of such probably being pretty darn wide.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

First goal: 10k a year to replace a Part-time job. 

Next goal: World Domination.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

kirtkinkly said:


> Well, I guess that makes me below the low-tier then. Good to know.


Yep, me too.

I think I'd qualify as a "mid-tier" novelist, making three times what I did at my old job. Well, if it weren't for the OPs numbers, I'd think that.

Dang, better get back to writing. KBoards! You're a time suck!

Seriously, $30K a month is $1000 a day, man. That's not "mid-tier". That's a highly successful author.


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## Miss Tarheel (Jul 18, 2014)

For me, the low end is $0-$1500 a month. Mid tier is $1,501 to $3000 a month. Then, the high end is $3,001 to $5000 a month. If you're making over $5k a month from writing then you aren't at the high end income of writing, you're just making straight bank at that point.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

If there are only three tiers, low, medium and high, then low tier would be part time writers who need a full time job to survive. Mid-tier would be those like me that have replaced their job income and working full time as a writer with no other means of income. High tier writers are those that only have to release one book a year, live on the beach and travel all over the world, not having to expense it as "research".

To break it down monetarily I would think it looks like this:
$0 - $50K a year is a part time job. You need to be 150% of your previous salary to quit.
$50K - $200K a year is a full time writer who has quit their day job.
$200K - $1M a year you'll find at a resort in the Caribbean for a few weeks in the winter.

$1M a year and up own those Caribbean resorts and write part time again.


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## nellgoddin (Jul 23, 2014)

Eelkat, I'm glad you have that Rolls.

As for the tiers, yeah, it's all relative. I mostly work to beat my own numbers and don't worry about anyone else's much.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

All of these people claiming big money in this thread are anonymous accounts with nothing to back up their sproutings. I am going to believe Wayne and Rosalind and H.M. Ward and Hugh. I have no time for sock puppets and as far as I'm concerned, they're taking us for a ride.

I'm done with this bragging with nothing to back it up.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Wayne Stinnett said:



> Yep, me too.
> 
> I think I'd qualify as a "mid-tier" novelist, making three times what I did at my old job. Well, if it weren't for the OPs numbers, I'd think that.
> 
> ...


1k a day is pretty good money. And it seems people here are taking offense to 'mid-tier' when they're still factoring in 5k and under a month authors. 5k a month from writing is still damn good money, no doubt. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's accomplishments by listing it as 'lower-end'. But in the grand scheme of things, there is A LOT of money on the table. And > 5k a month is fairly small peanuts.

You might make $100 a day selling lemonade on the side of the road -- jambajuice is still selling THOUSANDS more a day.

I'm dividing authors up into brackets beyond what they're used to being seen as -- this isn't mcdonald's competing with dino's hamburger grill down the street. 5k and under is still 'small-time' when you compare those numbers to the big hitters. 10k-20k is lower end at the next level. The mid-listers would be 30k-80k I'd say. And heavy hitters are all above those numbers. Now where are these mid-listers!


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Lionel's Mom said:


> I can see where the OP is coming from, I don't think it's insanity. I've been scraping low 5 figures a month across all platforms for the last few months and it's easy for me to see there are a load of people selling more than me. Loads and loads. I'm probably in the low middle of my subgenre, and _nowhere_ near the top of my genre.
> 
> I don't know. With luck and work I hope to keep it steady, if not raise it to the mythical 30k a month, lol. But it would take many consistent months of that before I felt confident to move to the Bahamas. It's too scary and too inconsistent to count on it-- even just replacing my 13 year old car with literally the cheapest new car on the market (and on end of year sale) gave me the heebie-jeebies. I live off what I used to make at my day job with the occasional sushi splurge, but other than that, I squirrel it away.
> 
> I wonder how many authors that make a bit of money (middle end, high end) worry constantly that it'll stop at any moment. Surely someone like HM Ward feels secure?


What genre do you write in?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> $1M a year and up own those Caribbean resorts and write part time again.


In my limited experience with friends who are earning in that range... they don't actually write part time. They write more and work harder than just about anyone else I know. Writing income doesn't stick around if you just quit doing the work, not at those levels or anything close to those levels. It takes a ton of work to get there and stay there.

Patty- I PM'd you. You know me 

In the end, I don't care if people believe how much I'm making or whatever. I'm on no huge bestseller lists (though a bunch of minor ones all over Amazon, for example). 30k a month sounds crazy (and feels crazy), but there's no security in it. All of it can go away next month. There is no point except maybe JK Rowling never-need-to-work-again monies where you can just sit back and coast. I'm working harder, writing more, and learning even more now that I'm getting somewhere with it. I spent a lot of years spinning my wheels listening to the wrong people and bad advice. I'm making up for lost time now, but it means a ton of work, and if I want it to continue, I have to keep putting in the hours.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Jack; said:


> The problem is people are constantly underestimating what they're capable of. Just look at all the "not possible!" responses in this thread.
> 
> So when you think something's impossible, of effing course it's going to be! You think it is! How could it not be? That doesn't mean thinking something is possible will make it so, but it's for sure not going to be possible if you think it's not.


I don't really think that's a problem for most writers. Maybe it's a problem for most wannabe writers. But I think that most writers "fail" because they quit, and they quit because writing is one crushing disappointment after another. I think people are only saying things are "impossible" because they've actually tried to reach for the impossible, and they haven't found it quite so easy to grasp.

This is the typical writer's journey:

First, you write a chapter and you show it to a friend, and they tell you all the things you did wrong, and you feel awful and it takes time to get back on the horse again.

Then, you write a whole book, and you show it to some actual writers, and they rip it to shreds, and you feel lost and confused, because you just spent a lot of time working really hard on this thing, and it's not actually good.

So, you work on fixing that book up or you write another book, and then you either self-pub it or you submit it to some places, and you don't sell anything or you get form rejections.

And this goes on for some time. You write more books. They go nowhere. And many times, you think to yourself, "Why the hell am I doing this? This is stupid. I must suck at this. If I didn't suck, I'd be getting somewhere, right?"

But the universe is cruel. She strings you along. A good review here. A successful promo there. Little things that keep you trying, for no good reason, no good reason at all. You lie to yourself and tell yourself that you are the exception to the rule, that you are the writer who languished in obscurity for years only to break out and become respected for all your hard work.

And in the end, you don't do it for respect or money or any of that, anyway. You do it because you can't not. You're a writer. That is your tragedy.
.
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.
.

Not saying there aren't people out there who don't achieve success beyond their wildest dreams and all. But I don't think the problem for most writers on this board is the fact that they don't try. I think the fact that they keep trying in the face of abject failure after abject failure is actually a testament to their spirit.


----------



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> All of these people claiming big money in this thread are anonymous accounts with nothing to back up their sproutings. I am going to believe Wayne and Rosalind and H.M. Ward and Hugh. I have no time for sock puppets and as far as I'm concerned, they're taking us for a ride.
> 
> I'm done with this bragging with nothing to back it up.


I think P Diddy said it best:



> You ain't gotta like me, you just mad
> Cause I tell it how it is, and you tell it how it might be.


----------



## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm still trying to make it to the lowest tier.


----------



## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> What genre do you write in?


Paranormal romance (no werewolves, which is prob why I'm in the low tier, lol). I'm writing a contemporary for nanowrimo but have zero expectations. Contemp is so competitive.

I went anonymous here because I think I lol'd at something controversial once and that very day all (yeah, I've got 'em) my bad reviews got massively upvoted. I don't have a street team or tons of friends or "sock puppets" to counteract something like that.
But I love it here and think there's lots of helpful, nice people and I only have one real-life writer friend so it's nice to have people who understand certain things.

Imagine if I spoke to my old office coworkers about how fearful I was to suddenly be making more money than I ever had before, and it was affecting my ability to work? Some people here understand that. My old coworkers would tell me to jump off a bridge.

Anyway, back to the OP,
I agree with Wayne's assessment of the tiers.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

dirtiestdevil said:


> I'm dividing authors up into brackets beyond what they're used to being seen as -- this isn't mcdonald's competing with dino's hamburger grill down the street. 5k and under is still 'small-time' when you compare those numbers to the big hitters. 10k-20k is lower end at the next level. The mid-listers would be 30k-80k I'd say. And heavy hitters are all above those numbers. Now where are these mid-listers!


I just have no idea why you think that's midlist. You think the average trad midlister makes that?

This whole thread baffles me.


----------



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Monique said:


> I just have no idea why you think that's midlist. You think the average trad midlister makes that?
> 
> This whole thread baffles me.


Yes, I do. Some companies make 200k a year and feel good. There are corporations making millions and and some above them making billions a year. Do you think they consider the 200k mom and pop shop to be mid-lister? No!

It depends on your level.

This isn't comparing stats on the middle school basketball team. This is comparing incomes of NBA players. Those already in the big leagues.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

zoe tate said:


> This.
> 
> These look like good, albeit perhaps slightly high figures, to me.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure the number is all that small although it might depend on your definition of small. I'm pretty sure there are a few thousand of us making in that income range. By the way FWIW, I am definitely in the $2000+ a month (but WAAAY below the $30000 a month) and consider myself a midlist writer (the term mid-tier is meaningless-has never been used in writing/publishing that I know of). But then I don't think writers are special snowflakes and do think our incomes should be compared to other professions and not in a category all of our own as someone suggested.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Yes, I do. Some companies make 200k a year and feel good. There are corporations making millions and and some above them making billions a year. Do you think they consider the 200k mom and pop shop to be mid-lister? No!
> 
> It depends on your level.
> 
> This isn't comparing stats on the middle school basketball team. This is comparing incomes of NBA players. Those already in the big leagues.


Successful midlist authors in traditional publishing are LUCKY if they can make $30,000 a *year*, much less a month. Corporations have nothing to do with it. Neither do millionaire sports figures. We are talking WRITERS here. The millionaires in writing are so far outliers they might as well be on Alpha Centauri.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

ㅈㅈ said:


> I'm making up for lost time now, but it means a ton of work, and if I want it to continue, I have to keep putting in the hours.


That right there is what separates the hobby writer from the successful author. Hard work and dedication.


----------



## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

_Comment edited out due to extreme snark._

Never mind.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

There is a serious lack of perspective going on here. It's unlikely anyone posting here is one of the many MANY folks swimming in the 2,000,000 ranks.

We're claiming the ocean isn't all that deep while standing on a stack of bloated, submerged bodies.


----------



## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

I agree with this who think a mid tier definition of 30k a month is living in lala land.  That's a million bucks every 3 years.  How can that be mid tier?  I'm damn happy to be making a few thousand a month with my writing, and I get the feeling there are plenty of others on this board that think that qualifies as successful.  

I don't begrudge others who have a much bigger success than I do, but when you set the bar so high that you have to be Hugh Howey to be considered successful, that's pretty extreme.


----------



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

JRTomlin said:


> Successful midlist authors in traditional publishing are LUCKY if they can make $30,000 a *year*, much less a month. Corporations have nothing to do with it. Neither do millionaire sports figures. We are talking WRITERS here. The millionaires in writing are so far outliers they might as well be on Alpha Centauri.


 

kboards...

Carry on!

--

Now to anyone who actually knows of novel writers making over 20-30k a month, anyone?


----------



## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Maybe try asking this on one of the new Erotica forums?

I think you may have got more of a response before the new policy came in place. I haven't seen many of those members since the changes were announced. And I'm pretty sure some of them more than qualified for the "mid-tier" income you're looking for.

Hope that helps!

Rue


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

This thread is reminding me of the sociology question: What social class are you in?  Interesting in the fact that one person's mid tier would be considered low tier to others.  Example 100k  a year would seem low to someone else making that or more a month.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> kboards...
> 
> Carry on!
> 
> ...


August:


----------



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

ruecole said:


> Maybe try asking this on one of the new Erotica forums?
> 
> I think you may have got more of a response before the new policy came in place. I haven't seen many of those members since the changes were announced. And I'm pretty sure some of them more than qualified for the "mid-tier" income you're looking for.
> 
> ...


I've not heard of these new little forums? are they on kboards?


----------



## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Monique said:


> Here are the most recent definitions1:
> 
> Cup of coffee and a muffin: >$10/month
> Dinner for the family: >$100
> ...


ROFLMAO!!!!!!


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I could live nicely on Wayne's taxes.


----------



## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

You and me both, Cin.  

DD, check the Erotica threads. There was talk of a new forum (not on the KBoards) in one of those. Don't remember which one, though.

Rue


----------



## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> kboards...
> 
> Carry on!
> 
> ...


I know many.


----------



## batmansero (Oct 10, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> I've not heard of these new little forums? are they on kboards?


It's in a thread about the Erotic Authors Forum being down. One of the moderators has started a new forum to replace it. Join up info is here


----------



## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Now to anyone who actually knows of novel writers making over 20-30k a month, anyone?


I think what most people on this thread are trying to tell you nicely is that there _really_ aren't that many of them. Certainly not as many as you seem to think.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

dirtiestdevil said:


> kboards...
> 
> Carry on!
> 
> ...


I can think of a dozen or so off the top of my head. But why do you want to know? While it is nice to know what is possible, I suppose, in the end you should probably go write a book


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Yes, I do. Some companies make 200k a year and feel good. There are corporations making millions and and some above them making billions a year. Do you think they consider the 200k mom and pop shop to be mid-lister? No!
> 
> It depends on your level.
> 
> This isn't comparing stats on the middle school basketball team. This is comparing incomes of NBA players. Those already in the big leagues.


I'm not sure if you have any idea how insulting you're being to lots of people. Or maybe you do?  Either way these posts are reality adjacent and I shall leave you to them.


----------



## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

What is the point of this thread? As far as I can tell, someone wants us to do his research homework for him. I think that's it, at any rate. I'm not even sure.


----------



## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

I pretty much agree with the majority of those who have responded, but...this might be a case analogous to asking the difference between mean, median, and mode income. You'll get different answers, none of which are wrong.


----------



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> August:


That's a fuckton of taxes! Have you not incorporated yourself or registered as an LLC to negate some of those with s-corp elections?


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

dirtiestdevil said:


> kboards...
> 
> Carry on!
> 
> ...


I never said I don't know any. I know several, but I don't really see any reasons why I should tell you who they are. You should be able to figure it out for yourself anyway.



Lydniz said:


> I think what most people on this thread are trying to tell you nicely is that there _really_ aren't that many of them. Certainly not as many as you seem to think.


That too although whether he really ever thought that is very questionable.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

People don't tend to stay friends with people who go blabbing their business to others, let alone in a public forum.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Thus, you aren't getting any answers to your question.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

ruecole said:


> Maybe try asking this on one of the new Erotica forums?
> 
> I think you may have got more of a response before the new policy came in place. I haven't seen many of those members since the changes were announced. And I'm pretty sure some of them more than qualified for the "mid-tier" income you're looking for.
> 
> ...


I spent several months as a top 100 erotica author in 2013 and I broke 5 figures in a month *once*. Selena Kitt only claims to be making $500k a year, and I very seriously doubt that there are a whole lot of other erotica authors pulling in anywhere near what she does. So I'm going to echo the sentiments of the other posters in here who have been calling BS on the anonymous sock puppet accounts.


----------



## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

ㅈㅈ said:


> In my limited experience with friends who are earning in that range... they don't actually write part time. They write more and work harder than just about anyone else I know. Writing income doesn't stick around if you just quit doing the work, not at those levels or anything close to those levels. It takes a ton of work to get there and stay there. I'm working harder, writing more, and learning even more now that I'm getting somewhere with it. I spent a lot of years spinning my wheels listening to the wrong people and bad advice. I'm making up for lost time now, but it means a ton of work, and if I want it to continue, I have to keep putting in the hours.


This. Just...so much this. To clarify, I don't make a million a year or anything, but I make a nice six figure living (but less than the mid-tier definition here, lol) and I wouldn't even consider slowing down. And I agree with un-named cat faced poster (who I also know. Hello, kitty ;op) that the people I DO know making this are the hardest working people around. They don't stop when the getting is good. It just makes them push harder. Just my .02!


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Yes: there are novel writers who earn less than the very top sellers, but who also earn more than almost everyone else who writes novels.


----------



## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

There are a lot of indies making $30,000+ per month.  I don't know how many, but there are quite a few.  If I had to guess, I'd say a couple hundred, at least, and probably more.  I know a lot of people myself who make that much or more.  It is not as uncommon as you think.  And while, $30,000 a month is a great income, people making that are not slurping brandy in front of the fire with King and Patterson.

There is a difference in income between indie midlisters and trad midlisters because we make so much more per book.  10,000 books a month at $4.95 each is $30k a month in royalties.  That 10,000 could be 1,000 each of 10 books.  A trad author would probably make $7-8k on the same sales, and that only if they'd earned out.

Labels are fairly pointless, and they seem to do very little but give people reason to argue or take offense.  Midlist in an old industry term, probably obsolete now.  But someone selling 10,000 total monthly copies across a bunch of books would have been considered midlist by the industry.  That person is now able to make serious money as an indie, and that's a good thing.


----------



## Sargon (Oct 5, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> That's a [expletive]ton of taxes! Have you not incorporated yourself or registered as an LLC to negate some of those with s-corp elections?


Hey DD, I own 2 S-corps and an LLC (all unrelated to writing), and just because your business is an S-corp doesn't mean you automatically pay less in taxes. If something is an expense, you deduct it -- whether you are S-corp or sole proprietor. Having an S-corp doesn't automatically allow you to start deducting things that were not legit business expenses already. All of the S-corp profits are subject to personal income taxes. I'm not an accountant or a tax expert, but I think for a single person doing all the earning (like a writer), you'd be hard pressed to find much gain in an S-corp aside from liability protection.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Sargon said:


> Hey DD, I own 2 S-corps and an LLC (all unrelated to writing), and just because your business is an S-corp doesn't mean you automatically pay less in taxes. If something is an expense, you deduct it -- whether you are S-corp or sole proprietor. Having an S-corp doesn't automatically allow you to start deducting things that were not legit business expenses already. All of the S-corp profits are subject to personal income taxes. I'm not an accountant or a tax expert, but I think for a single person doing all the earning (like a writer), you'd be hard pressed to find much gain in an S-corp aside from liability protection.
> 
> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


My tax guy said I shouldn't even bother thinking about incorporating until I'm over 450k a year in earnings, because the actual savings aren't really that much and the extra hassle you get to go through is a lot more. I tend to listen to the guy with the degrees and the license and the 20+ years doing taxes for freelancers and small businesses.


----------



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Sargon said:


> Hey DD, I own 2 S-corps and an LLC (all unrelated to writing), and just because your business is an S-corp doesn't mean you automatically pay less in taxes. If something is an expense, you deduct it -- whether you are S-corp or sole proprietor. Having an S-corp doesn't automatically allow you to start deducting things that were not legit business expenses already. All of the S-corp profits are subject to personal income taxes. I'm not an accountant or a tax expert, but I think for a single person doing all the earning (like a writer), you'd be hard pressed to find much gain in an S-corp aside from liability protection.
> 
> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


The s-corp is generally done to minimize self-employment taxes. From how it was explained to me -- as a sole prop, you pay social security (12.9%)+ medi (2.9%?) + self employment (14%?) on ALL your income.

As an s-corp, you can pay yourself a 'salary' which will be taxed for ss, m, and self employment. This salary has to be 'commensurate' to the work you do, so it doesn't look like you're scamming the gov. by earning 100k a year and paying yourself $1.

Say you earn 100k and you pay yourself a writer's salary of 40k a year. That leaves 60k left that you can take out as a 'distribution/draw' from the company -- and this is NOT taxed for self employment. So you save yourself the 14% or whatever the amount is. You are only taxed on the salary, not the distribution. From all the sources I saw, plus deductions and all the other little things you can do as a corporation, it seems that you can save a lot of money going that route.

And if you plan to hire on ghost writers, employees, and the like.


----------



## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

David Wisehart said:


> Low: $0-$50 per month
> Middle: $50-$2,000 per month
> High: $2,000+ per month


Woohoo!! I made middle level! I only made it by ten bucks, but I made it!!!!


----------



## Sargon (Oct 5, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> The s-corp is generally done to minimize self-employment taxes. From how it was explained to me -- as a sole prop, you pay social security (12.9%)+ medi (2.9%?) + self employment (14%?) on ALL your income.
> 
> As an s-corp, you can pay yourself a 'salary' which will be taxed for ss, m, and self employment. This salary has to be 'commensurate' to the work you do, so it doesn't look like you're scamming the gov. by earning 100k a year and paying yourself $1.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's true. Forgot about that aspect! Literally spaced on it. We keep our salaries reasonable but not high for that very reason. Argh, now I feel like a bone-head.


----------



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Sargon said:


> Yeah, that's true. Forgot about that aspect! Literally spaced on it. We keep our salaries reasonable but not high for that very reason. Argh, now I feel like a bone-head.


Using that line of thought, even someone making 10k-20k a year could potentially benefit from incorporating themselves. And you can get medical insurance through your new corporation etc. There's a lot of little tricks and tactics you can do if you want to take the time (or pay someone  ) to learn them. I'm only just starting on it now!


----------



## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

ㅈㅈ said:


> My tax guy said I shouldn't even bother thinking about incorporating until I'm over 450k a year in earnings, because the actual savings aren't really that much and the extra hassle you get to go through is a lot more. I tend to listen to the guy with the degrees and the license and the 20+ years doing taxes for freelancers and small businesses.


I think you should consider asking someone who is familiar with writers specifically (preferably with self-published writers). I think writers who make money more or less passively from royalties year after year after the writing work is done are a strange case compared to most freelancers and small businesses. I think almost any tax pro will give you a safe answer, but an expert on copyright income might give you a money-saving safe answer.

I haven't got any licenses and can't give you legal or tax advice, but I think there is more potential benefit to it than your tax guy may be aware of, because of the unusual nature of income from copyrights.

If you look at the trad pub model, the publishing company makes profits. When you self-pub and take over their part of the job, it might not be unreasonable to consider some of that as profit rather than salary if you set things up right. Intuitively, I don't think it makes sense for writers to be taxed (SE taxed, I mean) this year for income that comes from work done years ago. All those old copyrights are property, not labor, and it seems logical that you could set things up so that the income from them is taxed more like investment income. Anyway, I'm planning on hiring a pro or two to look into this soon. I'm looking forward to learning more about it.


----------



## batmansero (Oct 10, 2014)

kward said:


> Realistically I would break down the three tiers as follows:
> 
> Low - $1-$10/month
> Mid - $11-$999/month
> High - $1000+/month


Looking at that model I think I want to earn '_stupidly-higher-than-the-highest-highererererer_' amount  I don't want to limit my thinking like that though.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Those of you calling us who choose not to post our real names "sock puppets" might want to look up the definition of the word, btw. Also, look at post counts. Some of us have been around a very long time (I've been here since 2010, I mean, I remember when Amanda Hocking used to post here).  Not exactly fake accounts created yesterday for some nefarious purpose. 

I'd put tiers, if you have to have them, somewhere like this:

Low- 0-$400 a month
Mid- $500-$3000 a month
High- $4000-$10,000 a month
Killing it- $10,000+ a month

Keep in mind, just because you kill it one month (or hit high or whatever) doesn't mean it will continue. There's no point at which you coast, I don't think. I imagine if I stopped writing right now, I might make 10-15k this month, but it would fade out quickly after that without more books in my series (not to mention how much not fulfilling pre-orders would wreck my cred with readers).  The nice thing about freelancing and the publishing/writing business is that their is no ceiling. You can make billions.  It might not be likely, you might not be willing to sacrifice and do what it takes (it might not be reasonable for you to, either, if you have obligations/health issues/etc), or you might get whacked with the bad luck stick, but earning a good living from writing is very possible. 

However, the "midlist" for indies is probably a very broad and ultimately pretty useless category.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Nathan Elliott said:


> I think you should consider asking someone who is familiar with writers specifically (preferably with self-published writers). I think writers who make money more or less passively from royalties year after year after the writing work is done are a strange case compared to most freelancers and small businesses. I think almost any tax pro will give you a safe answer, but an expert on copyright income might give you a money-saving safe answer.
> 
> I haven't got any licenses and can't give you legal or tax advice, but I think there is more potential benefit to it than your tax guy may be aware of, because of the unusual nature of income from copyrights.
> 
> If you look at the trad pub model, the publishing company makes profits. When you self-pub and take over their part of the job, it might not be unreasonable to consider some of that as profit rather than salary if you set things up right. Intuitively, I don't think it makes sense for writers to be taxed (SE taxed, I mean) this year for income that comes from work done years ago. All those old copyrights are property, not labor, and it seems logical that you could set things up so that the income from them is taxed more like investment income. Anyway, I'm planning on hiring a pro or two to look into this soon. I'm looking forward to learning more about it.


He is used to working with writers. I was referred to him by local full time fiction writers who have used him for years. I'm pretty sure I'm going to trust the guy with 20+ years experience and a license, thanks


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

ROFL.  The OP's managed to pull EVERYBODY out of the woodwork for this one.

There are probably 500 writers in the ENTIRE United States making $30k+ a month.

There are, by the way, over 2 million living writers with published novels.

Now, most "midlist" writers, meaning people pubbed by a major house, make $10k-$30k per YEAR.

The entire span of the traditional midlist is $5k-$150k per year.

Bestselling trad writers make $50k per year and up.


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Lucas030 said:


> If you are working full time at this you can definitely increase your income by $10.000+/month within a year.
> 
> If you are more a publisher than an author you can outsource the whole work. With an investment of about $20.000 you can produce 100 books per year (short stories). I think everything above is impossibile for one person if you want to publish decent quality books.
> 
> ...


Wow. There is exactly nothing in this post that is correct.


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Now, finally, as to what writers who are making $30k and up a month feel like.....

Just about everyone is squirreling away month because we don't trust Amazon or ANYBODY that this will keep happening.

A few continue to see it as a lucky accident and take dips in stride.

The rest still have a gutwrenching sense of panic when we see the day's sales plunge to zero when the clock starts over.  Because the fall is that much harder.

The changes with KU are hitting almost everyone.  And people who were making $1mil a month have thousands more reasons to resent it than people making $100 a month.


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> The s-corp is generally done to minimize self-employment taxes. From how it was explained to me -- as a sole prop, you pay social security (12.9%)+ medi (2.9%?) + self employment (14%?) on ALL your income.
> 
> As an s-corp, you can pay yourself a 'salary' which will be taxed for ss, m, and self employment. This salary has to be 'commensurate' to the work you do, so it doesn't look like you're scamming the gov. by earning 100k a year and paying yourself $1.
> 
> ...


This is what my tax attorney told me.


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

JK Rowling made that much money because...she never coasts.    Even now, she's incredibly involved with all kinds of monetization of her IP.

And no kitty isn't a "sock puppet" or a troll.  She just got tired of getting the one-stars for calling DWS on his nonsense.

I'm not a sockpuppet, either.  I got tired of the plagiarists.  Who have, BTW, disappeared since I went anon.

And I can't freaking WAIT to upgrade my star again.


----------



## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Victoria J said:


> _Comment edited out due to extreme snark._
> 
> Never mind.


Lol I love this.


----------



## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

I make about eighty-six thousand a year in my field of work, and less than one and a half thousand a month in Amazone Kindle sales. Good to know I'm poor.


----------



## Catnip (Sep 7, 2013)

My current income is low-tier by any standard, but if I was making into 5 figures a month, I don't think I'd be discussing it anywhere online. 

I wouldn't be moving to the Bahamas either. I don't think I could ever feel secure in this business, even if I was making 6 or 7 figures a year. Which is why I plan to put every penny I can into other investments. When I can live comfortably off dividends & interest, *thats* the time to go and spend my days on the beach (or a snowy mountain somewhere, in my case  )


----------



## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'm saving up to buy Saturn.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> I'm saving up to buy Saturn.


Saturn went out of business. Might I suggest a Lexus?


----------



## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Heh heh. I didn't say _a_ Saturn.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

dirtiestdevil said:


> The s-corp is generally done to minimize self-employment taxes. From how it was explained to me -- as a sole prop, you pay social security (12.9%)+ medi (2.9%?) + self employment (14%?) on ALL your income.
> 
> As an s-corp, you can pay yourself a 'salary' which will be taxed for ss, m, and self employment. This salary has to be 'commensurate' to the work you do, so it doesn't look like you're scamming the gov. by earning 100k a year and paying yourself $1.
> 
> ...


This is not accurate.

As a sole proprietor, you pay income tax on your net income at whatever your rate is -- between 10% and 40% depending on your overall income and what deductions you're entitled to. In addition, you pay "self-employment tax", which is social security for the self employed on your net self employment income ONLY. That full rate is 15.3% -- which assumes you're not above the income threshold to pay in to SS and have not already paid the maximum amount for the year through your wage job. That 15.3% is assessed on something around 94% of your net schedule C income. Half that figure is subtracted as an 'adjustment' from your Gross Income. . . . so not counted in your total taxable income for income tax purposes.

As an S corporation, with you as sole owner, you MUST pay yourself a salary that is _reasonable_ for the work you do and how much money the corporation is making. On your salary, you still pay YOUR half of social security and medicare, and income tax at whatever your rate is. The Corporation, in addition, must pay the other half of your ss/med and may also be required to pay unemployment and/or other benefits depending on your state. On the additional distribution you are paid, you will ONLY pay income tax and, if a qualified distribution, it may be at a lower rate than your ordinary income.

But you can't just pick a number for your salary. I would *strongly* suggest anyone who wants to use this strategy, to not try to do so on their own but have the support of a tax professional experienced in corporate AND personal taxation, who will know how to argue for you when the agents come asking questions. The thing is: if you're the ONLY OWNER of your S-corp, which earns $100K from YOUR EFFORTS ONLY, it is not likely that a $40 K salary is going to look 'reasonable'. And the longer you're in business, the more history they have to look at.

Also -- you CAN have employees and/or higher contract labor as a sole proprietor; you do not need to be a corporation to do so.

Bottom Line: a corporation may be the most tax advantageous entity for one person, but it may NOT be so for another. You really have to look at your over all tax situation. AND, as always, there are a ton of considerations that are NOT TAX BASED that should also be taken into account. So before deciding anything, Do Your Research, and seek guidance from a QUALIFIED tax professional and/or financial adviser.

_I am an Enrolled Agent and employed by H&R Block. Any tax advice contained in this message is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any member here, to avoid any federal tax penalty that may be imposed on the taxpayer._


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2014)

NoahPorter said:


> Some of these threads lately are insanity.


I don't consider the thread insane. I just thought there would be something of value. Sadly, I found nothing.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Seriously, $30K a month is $1000 a day, man. That's not "mid-tier". That's a highly successful author.


Exactly!


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## darkline (Mar 30, 2014)

To me, for a self-published author:
Low - $1-$300/month
Average - $300-$1000/month. I believe most self-pusblished writers earn that much.
Above average - $1000-$3000/month. 
Mid- $3000-$5000/month
High - $5000-10000/month
Very high - $10000+/month

$30000 a month is definitely not a mid-tier writer income.


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## Ruth Ann Nordin (Sep 24, 2010)

I have an LLC with an S-Corp election.  I sought the advice of an attorney (familiar with business law) and an accountant (who specializes in small businesses) while setting the business up.  I wouldn't make any decisions like this without the advice of professionals.  Running an LLC with an S-Corp isn't as hard as it initially seems.  The important thing is setting up payroll, and I went with Paychex (based off my accountant's recommendation) for that.  It makes the whole process run a lot smoother if you're not worried about the nuts and bolts of what taxes to pay and when.  That's what I pay Paychex and my accountant to do.  I also used my accountant's advice on what to use as my salary.  

Each case will vary.  I do think the LLC with S-Corp offers benefits an LLC alone won't, and it's worth having.  However, in writing, income is not something you can rely on, so buying anything in the Bahamas or taking an elaborate vacation is out of the question for me.  Everything goes into the rainy day fund, and I pay my taxes as early in the year as possible.  So before the voucher payment is due, I send the payment in.  I've heard of too many authors who aren't making as much as they did last year.  In 2013, I published six books.  This year, I published eight.  And I barely earned as much this year as I did last year, which means I made less money per book.  The reality is, sales go up and down.  In 2013, I made more in September and October than I did this September and October (despite having a new book out in both of these months.)  You can't depend on writing income to be stable.  Sales fluctuate too much from month to month.  My advice is to do everything you can to buffer yourself in case something bad happens.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

If you are bringing in $10k plus per month, I'm thinking it's time to start investing in other things. Stock market, real estate, other businesses. Put that money into something that has greater long haul stability. Max out a few 401ks for tax purposes.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Kalypsō said:


> If you are bringing in $10k plus per month, I'm thinking it's time to start investing in other things. Stock market, real estate, other businesses. Put that money into something that has greater long haul stability. Max out a few 401ks for tax purposes.


Well -- each person can only 'max out' ONE 401K. You may have more than one, but the total that can go in them collectively doesn't change. That maximum, incidentally, is $17,500. If you're over 50, however, you can contribute more via a 'catch up' provision -- up to another $5,500.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Well -- each person can only 'max out' ONE 401K. You may have more than one, but the total that can go in them collectively doesn't change. That maximum, incidentally, is $17,500. If you're over 50, however, you can contribute more via a 'catch up' provision -- up to another $5,500.


I don't really know anything about 401ks except that you can use them as tax shelters. But thanks for the info!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Kalypsō said:


> I don't really know anything about 401ks except that you can use them as tax shelters. But thanks for the info!


I wouldn't characterize them as tax shelters. They're voluntary retirement plans available through many private for profit employers. Contributions may not be included in your income for the year -- depends on the type -- and earnings grow un-taxed until you start drawing from the account when you are, in fact retired. If you pull the money out before you're retired, there are generally stiff penalties. So it shouldn't be considered a rainy day fund -- if you think you might need the money before you're about 60, you want to look at other options.

As usual . . . . it would be wise to consult a qualified financial adviser.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

It's just something I heard from Tim Ferriss of Four Hour Work Week. That guy is my hero. He actually said 401ks are kind of stupid for most people. But that he has them and uses them for tax reasons. Personally, when I get to the $10k per month level, I'm going into rental real estate again. I love real estate, it gets me really excited personally. But everyone has their own thing. Some might be more suited to the stock market.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Kalypsō said:


> It's just something I heard from Tim Ferriss of Four Hour Work Week. That guy is my hero. He actually said 401ks are kind of stupid for most people. But that he has them and uses them for tax reasons. Personally, when I get to the $10k per month level, I'm going into rental real estate again. I love real estate, it gets me really excited personally. But everyone has their own thing. Some might be more suited to the stock market.


Me too! I grew up in a Real Estate family and would love to get into it, myself. I was an Agent for eight years when I was in my twenties, and didn't like that, at all. I'd rather be the investor. My parents had rentals, built houses, and were flipping houses before flipping was cool. I'd like to have three or four rentals by the time I retire and do some flipping. That would be fun.

I'm also a stock market addict. When I'm not reading or writing (or hanging out on KB), I'm studying stock charts. What I love about trading stocks is that it is something a person can get into with a relatively small amount of money and be in profit pretty quickly. Of course, you can also lose it all pretty quickly.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Don't stop the funk!


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Don't Stop the Funk said:


> Don't stop the funk!


Don't Stop The Funk is my other hero.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> This is not accurate.
> 
> .....
> 
> _I am an Enrolled Agent and employed by H&R Block. Any tax advice contained in this message is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any member here, to avoid any federal tax penalty that may be imposed on the taxpayer._


And once more, as I found out quite thoroughly, NO TWO TAX PEOPLE EVER AGREE ON ANYTHING! 

One person tells me this, another tells me that. They both claim to be right and legal and they're both 'professionals'. And I did this back and forth across MANY cpa's, ea's, tax attorneys, etc.

At the end of the day you just have to pick one you feel comfortable with and give it a go. If you're waiting for a consistent answer... it will NEVER happen!

_I am a disgruntled cpa shopper. None of this advice should be taken to heart or used to convince your spouse of your accuracy in case of a domestic dispute._


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## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> Heh heh. I didn't say _a_ Saturn.


I guess rings really are a girl's best friends.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Well -- each person can only 'max out' ONE 401K. You may have more than one, but the total that can go in them collectively doesn't change. That maximum, incidentally, is $17,500. If you're over 50, however, you can contribute more via a 'catch up' provision -- up to another $5,500.


Solo 401ks go to $52k with employer's contribution.

I'm setting my salary based on the advice of my CPA and tax attorney. My attorney's setting up my living trust and advising me on other IP issues and childrens' trusts, etc. But the kids don't get a trust until the house is paid off.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

ʬ said:


> Solo 401ks go to $52k with employer's contribution.


That's true -- assuming you have the income.

It would definitely be smart to talk about retirement planning while you're talking about tax planning with the qualified professional.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> That's true -- assuming you have the income.


Wasn't that kind of the point of the thread?


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I wouldn't characterize them as tax shelters. They're voluntary retirement plans available through many private for profit employers.


It is a tax shelter. "Tax shelter" doesn't mean illegal or liquid. It means something that has a legal reduced tax burden.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxshelter.asp

"DEFINITION OF 'TAX SHELTER'
"A legal method of minimizing or decreasing an investor's taxable income and, therefore, his or her tax liability. Tax shelters can range from investments or investment accounts that provide favorable tax treatment, to activities or transactions that lower taxable income. The most common type of tax shelter is an employer-sponsored 401(k) plan."

Anyhow, you can squirrel away WAY more with a defined benefit account!!! But it's safer for older people. Again...after the house is paid off.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> That's true -- assuming you have the income.
> 
> It would definitely be smart to talk about retirement planning while you're talking about tax planning with the qualified professional.


We were talking about $30k+ plus, right? LOL.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

darkline said:


> To me, for a self-published author:
> Low - $1-$300/month
> Average - $300-$1000/month. I believe most self-pusblished writers earn that much.
> Above average - $1000-$3000/month.
> ...


I like this breakdown. It makes sense. Under the OP's distorted view of things, I have never even achieved "low tier", i.e., $5000/month. My best month ever was three years ago at the beginning of Select (when it was worthwhile), I made $3000, well below the $5000 needed to be "low tier". Then I had 6 titles. Now, with twice as many titles, I made $104 last month and have sold 3 books so far this month. I must be the dirt and slime upon which the tiers are built.


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## o.gasim (Oct 5, 2014)

I'm with Nell here,



nellgoddin said:


> I mostly work to beat my own numbers and don't worry about anyone else's much.


For last month to this month I have met that goal.


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## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

David Wisehart said:


> Low: $0-$50 per month
> Middle: $50-$2,000 per month
> High: $2,000+ per month
> 
> ...


Midlist authors are the working heart and soul of the publishing industry. I've been in this crazy game 20+ years as a pro and agree the numbers above look much more like midlist than $30K per month.

However, IMHO, whether an author is mid-tier/midlist has more to do with how the author's books sell than how much they make a month. A top-tier author could make $30K per month off his 1 or 2 bestsellers. A mid-tier author could make $30K per month of his 20 or 30 midlist books.

Thanks!

Robert Stanek


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