# Does the race of the hero in a book matter to you?



## glc3 (Jun 24, 2009)

Does the race of the hero in a book matter to you?

Recently a friend and I were talking and he wondered allowed if the fact that our books feature black protagonist might be limiting our sales. I don't believe so but I was wondering what others think.

Read more here: http://www.thedeadwarseries.com/2014/04/does-race-of-hero-in-book-matter-to-you.html


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

It doesn't matter to me.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Race doesn't matter to me as much as culture does.  If the MC doesn't talk in dialect (any dialect - I find that tremendously hard to read) and is intelligent, that's all that matters to me.


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

It doesn't matter to me (as long as they are not speaking a dialect that I can't understand)  There are also many books with white protagonists that aren't selling either, so I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

No.  Zombies aren't actually hot as a genre at the moment because the market is crowded, full of high-quality offerings.


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## lucyvarna (Feb 18, 2014)

I'm much more interested in how well the story is crafted/written.


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## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

Alex Cross did ok. Sold a few hundred million if I remember correctly.


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## Philip Chen (Aug 8, 2010)

Race only matters if it is critical to the development of the story.  

In my science fiction thriller, the ethnicity of the main character actually became the key to solving the central mystery of the book.

It isn't simply the ethnicity of the main character that mattered, but what he had to endure because of it.  As a result, his back story created an unusually emphatic moment when he observed another person having to endure a racist interaction.

Interestingly enough, although I thought that this was a critical element in the story, most people who have commented on the book have not picked up on this theme.  Maybe I made it too nuanced.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I have several multicultural/interracial couples, and they do well, but they are Maori/white (in both directions--new one is Maori heroine, white hero). But frankly I suspect there is less racism, overt or subtle, with a culture most people don't know? It also seems like many books on multicultural "lists" I've seen are Black woman, white man rather than the other way around? But I don't know for sure of course. 

If both parts of the couple are of a non-majority race, perhaps it gets trickier. 

Personally, I want a strong, kind, interesting hero. His race matters a lot less to me than that he's not an asshat.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

I prefer to read about characters from diverse backgrounds. So I'd definitely not be put off by a hero with a different racial background to my own.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

It doesn't matter to me. The only thing that matters to me is the story.


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## I Give Up (Jan 27, 2014)

You'll be hard-pressed to find anyone that would publicly admit that it bothers them. I am biracial, but always identified more with my Irish roots than African. As a result, I would never read anything with a black protagonist when I was younger, because I assumed I wouldn't be able to relate to it. Fortunately, the heavy weight of being biracial in the rural south drove me to to seek comfort in black poets and writers, and I was able to recognize my cultural bias early on.

A lot of people don't though, and no matter how progressive we are becoming, non-white protagonists aren't as marketable. It's not a popular statement to make, but there's a lot of research to prove it. I (most unfortunately) have a lot of family members who probably wouldn't be interested in reading a novel if the protagonist wasn't Caucasian. I don't think that they're racist (at least not _all _of them ) but rather that most of them just have a strong cultural bias.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Viola Rivard said:


> You'll be hard-pressed to find anyone that would publicly admit that it bothers them. I am biracial, but always identified more with my Irish roots than African. As a result, I would never read anything with a black protagonist when I was younger, because I assumed I wouldn't be able to relate to it. Fortunately, the heavy weight of being biracial in the rural south drove me to to seek comfort in black poets and writers, and I was able to recognize my cultural bias early on.
> 
> A lot of people don't though, and no matter how progressive we are becoming, non-white protagonists aren't as marketable. It's not a popular statement to make, but there's a lot of research to prove it. I (most unfortunately) have a lot of family members who probably wouldn't be interested in reading a novel if the protagonist wasn't Caucasian. I don't think that they're racist (at least not _all _of them ) but rather that most of them just have a strong cultural bias.


Interesting points. I believe my own bias comes in if it's a hero from a culture where the men aren't typically big and strong. I'm not proud of that, but there you go, I'm more attracted to the big boys, and I find that I extend that racially.

Different cultures, though, I find interesting, so that would be a different story. If both people were, say, Indian, that would just be interesting. But if it's white heroine, I'd tend to project myself, if you see what I mean.

Eta: in romance. In other genres, it would not matter at all.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I'll give the author a tiny bit more leeway than normal just for a black protagonist, a little more for a Middle Eastern one. Bonus points if they know that Iranians aren't Arabs.

I would give some for Native American protagonists too, but every time I see someone include one, they follow up with an offhand hurtful stereotype.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Rayven T. Hill said:


> Alex Cross did ok. Sold a few hundred million if I remember correctly.


Agreed. Although something I've noticed is that he's never depicted on the covers except in silouhette.

Viola R., I applaud you (and not just for that - you've gone through a lot). At first I wondered if what you thought was true. Race and writing can be a mixed basket. When I was growing up it was impossible to find protagonists who were minorities (of any race) anywhere in scifi/fantasy for young adults. The only time I did find them was in the 'cultural' sections and those were historical books. So I decided to test the theory.

My covers below - the pretty dresses are all different characters but even the protagonist (on the first book) isn't as dark as she should be being Latina. So my next series I tried to find the perfect representation. That's the girl with the sword on the last cover. That book has blown all of my other sales out of the water. It released last month and hasn't stopped climbing. It's in the Top 400 now. Will it stop there? Who knows. But I do know this now - having a black protagonist and cover model did nothing to hinder my sales.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

Not really. As long as I like the character, it doesn't matter.


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## I Give Up (Jan 27, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> Interesting points. I believe my own bias comes in if it's a hero from a culture where the men aren't typically big and strong. I'm not proud of that, but there you go, I'm more attracted to the big boys, and I find that I extend that racially.
> 
> Different cultures, though, I find interesting, so that would be a different story. If both people were, say, Indian, that would just be interesting. But if it's white heroine, I'd tend to project myself, if you see what I mean.


I think personally, if it's a book like say, The Kitchen God's Wife (Amy Tan), or The Color Purple (Alice Walker), or Push (Sapphire) I read those for the cultural escapism, and will want the character will be different than me. When I'm reading a romance book, I want to project myself into the MC, and have an easier time doing so if the protagonist is either white or biracial, with a few exceptions. Stranded, by Pepper Pace comes to mind.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Doesn't matter to me. Good characters + good story + well-written = good for me.

That said, I don't think your blurb is helping you. It's very sparse and tells me nothing about the main character (Sgt. Richards?) and what he goes through.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I prefer it when the author doesn't describe the characters' skin color, hair color, eye color, etc, just their clothes and mannerisms. Let my imagination fill in those details. More often than not, my imagination does and then later I get description that goes contrary to how I already pictured a character. Hate that! So if you are going to describe a character's personal appearance, please do so on that character's first page in the story. I don't have a preference other than that.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

And GLC3 - I read all types - so no. 

Also consider Kurzon's advice. It's all about the first pages and drawing people in. The illustration is gorgeous btw.


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## I Give Up (Jan 27, 2014)

The more I think about it, I feel similar to race in romance as I do age. I was trying to read a book a few weeks back, and partway through the book the heroine revealed that she was significantly older than me, and I found myself up against a total mental roadblock that I just couldn't get over. I very rarely read books where the MC is much older than me, because I have trouble relating. In fact, the only exception I can think of, oddly enough, is _On the Island_. I guess island romances are just the exception for me, lol


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Lol 

I dont think anyone's gonna say, "I'd _ never _ read a book with a [Insert race here] person as the MC." And if they do, they're quite ballsy. But I'm sure there are people like that and they will never read your book because of it. But the definition of loss is up to you.

Personally, I wouldn't want a person like this touching anything I wrote. Will this equate to a loss in sales? Probably. But I'd consider them doing me a favor. I'd consider it nice if they never opened it.

The MC of my WIP is biracial (black & white) and he has a strong dislike for his, uh... lighter side. But I'm purposely trying to be _ incorrect _ with what I write so thats different.

Best of Luck.

Edit: There are people who actively seek out books with MCs who are POC so maybe it evens out?

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## glc3 (Jun 24, 2009)

Love your answer. It's just honest and i think many feel that way but can't put it into words without coming off as racist.



Viola Rivard said:


> You'll be hard-pressed to find anyone that would publicly admit that it bothers them. I am biracial, but always identified more with my Irish roots than African. As a result, I would never read anything with a black protagonist when I was younger, because I assumed I wouldn't be able to relate to it. Fortunately, the heavy weight of being biracial in the rural south drove me to to seek comfort in black poets and writers, and I was able to recognize my cultural bias early on.
> 
> A lot of people don't though, and no matter how progressive we are becoming, non-white protagonists aren't as marketable. It's not a popular statement to make, but there's a lot of research to prove it. I (most unfortunately) have a lot of family members who probably wouldn't be interested in reading a novel if the protagonist wasn't Caucasian. I don't think that they're racist (at least not _all _of them ) but rather that most of them just have a strong cultural bias.


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## glc3 (Jun 24, 2009)

Me too. I think if it's a good story the hero's race shouldn't matter.



lucyvarna said:


> I'm much more interested in how well the story is crafted/written.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

There will be those who assume that a black MC will only be of interest to those who are black, just like many men assume that a female MC means that men have no right to be found between those sheets. 

My forthcoming novel has an almost all-white storyline, but the major theme (told through short stories between the chapters) is about the Japanese American and Native American experience in Seattle. A lot of the characters are gay, but the MC is white and straight (with mental health issues). So I am on a hiding to selling nothing, but then as I write lyrical literary fiction I don't expect to sell much no matter who the characters are.


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## 58907 (Apr 3, 2012)

glc3 said:


> Does the race of the hero in a book matter to you?


It definitely matters to a lot of people. An author friend of mine and I were talking about this today as we're having a hard time thinking of ways to market our MC/IR fiction to mainstream readers in the romantic suspense genre. We write MC/IR romantic suspense and it's not something you find a lot of in the Top 100 of MC fiction on Amazon.



Viola Rivard said:


> As a result, I would never read anything with a black protagonist when I was younger, because I assumed I wouldn't be able to relate to it.


This is interesting. I read mostly Christian romance growing up and didn't at all find those characters un-relatable--and you know they were all Caucasian. They were just enjoyable stories. I was told by an agent who represents Christian romance that readers of that fiction don't want to see minority characters because they can't relate to them. The impression I got (without much elaboration beyond a well-written story with a black female protagonist just wasn't well-received) is that there is this vast chasm of difference between races. I wonder what these readers (and others) think they'll find when reading about minority characters? We all have the same human emotions and go through painful circumstances and/or conflicts that may or may not be similar. Not every black person is going to grow up in the ghetto, speak a dialect you can't grasp, enter another stereotype here, etc. And not everything is about racial struggle. And yes, both of those are general presumptions of why a person can't relate--no pitch forks, please, and I know I'm preaching to the choir. How soon we forget the Cosby Show.  At least the majority of my books have nothing to do with that; just two people solving crimes and coming together in love. 



lala said:


> However, I doubt having a POC MC hurts sales too much if you have a story people want to read. I have *never* seen a non-minority person perusing the AA romance section next to me at a book store and that isn't a genre hurting for readers. I think its most important to market your book correctly and find your readers whatever color they maybe.


True, true, depends on the subgenre, and very true.

Edit: I should probably add that the general readers of Christian romance are older women who (obviously) lived through the 60s and 70s and perhaps that time and overall societal culture has shaped their views.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I'll add that I'm also biracial and I've sort of come to terms that _I'm_ never going to be included. People seem to only use 'exotic' biracial characters and black/white apparently doens't cut it.

Hell, in comics there are literally more half-Vietnamese people than black/white.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

The humans in my stories are of all races. The aliens are hominid and come in all different skin shades--from human-like to green and blue.

I live in a diverse area of Chicago. The "Earth" side of the story takes place here--I wanted the story to reflect the people who actually live here. Also, the story is about humans resisting occupation by so-called Gods. Philosophically, I think that we'll all rise together or fall together, so my three main characters by part IV are of African, Asian, and European descent, and there are supporting characters of all ethnicities. And interracial, and inter-species relationships happen.

I just want to ad, the readers of my stories are mostly Southern, white, and suburban or urban. I've had more trouble getting them to understand the realities of urban geography and Chicagoans penchant to having parties in the snow at the park if it's above 15 degrees, than the race of the characters.


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## 58907 (Apr 3, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> I'll add that I'm also biracial and I've sort of come to terms that _I'm_ never going to be included. People seem to only use 'exotic' biracial characters and black/white apparently doens't cut it.


I got you! I'm releasing two books this summer featuring biracial characters. ;-)


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I learned Alex Cross was black in the third Cross book I read.


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Sometimes it matters. For me, I have a real hard time getting into books where the hero is Finnish. Dunno why.


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

I don't notice characters' race unless the author goes out of their way to slap me in the face with it. Like with accent. I don't want to read any kind of accent (the Redwall books drive me bats). But I'll read any sort of character if they've got an interesting story.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I learned Alex Cross was black in the third Cross book I read.


lol, I'm pretty sure I knew right off the bat, but didn't care. I honestly can't remember if Lincoln was black in the Jeffery Deaver's books or not, but didn't stop me from loving those books as well. (Can't help but picture Denzel as him now) I really think race is something that more and more people don't give any thought to. Sure it was a big issue, but I don't think the generations coming up now even give it a second thought. Books, tv, movies...sure there are few examples where people might see strong racial/culture ties, but I think those are the outliers. Heck, Sam Jackson is in 400 movies a year, outside of Mary Poppins I think the man has played every role there is and I heard he'll be Mary on broadway this summer!!


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2014)

Viola Rivard said:


> The more I think about it, I feel similar to race in romance as I do age. I was trying to read a book a few weeks back, and partway through the book the heroine revealed that she was significantly older than me, and I found myself up against a total mental roadblock that I just couldn't get over. I very rarely read books where the MC is much older than me, because I have trouble relating. In fact, the only exception I can think of, oddly enough, is _On the Island_. I guess island romances are just the exception for me, lol


Newsflash - You can be "old" and still not relate to "old." I have little in common with people my age. Most of them have one foot in the grave already - the "walking dead" literally. ( One of the reasons I prefer "new adult" characters.)


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## I Give Up (Jan 27, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> Newsflash - You can be "old" and still not relate to "old." I have little in common with people my age. Most of them have one foot in the grave already - the "walking dead" literally. ( One of the reasons I prefer "new adult" characters.)


I can relate to that. I never liked YA when I was a teenager, aside from the occasional dystopian. Just couldn't put myself in the right frame of mind to relate to the protagonists.


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## antares (Feb 13, 2011)

glc3 said:


> Does the race of the hero in a book matter to you?


Does it matter to me? No.

Will it matter to some others? Yes, but they are not your market.


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## Issy (Aug 25, 2013)

I had a biracial character in one of my books, and a gay couple in another. But in both instances, the characters just happened that way, the same way other characters come into my head as very tall, or red-haired, or called Oscar. Their race or sexuality weren't plot points, they were just people. But then I have had the occasional question "why was he...." like I was trying to make a point or something. I wasn't. People just are people.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Isabella Brooke said:


> I had a biracial character in one of my books, and a gay couple in another. *But in both instances, the characters just happened that way, the same way other characters come into my head as very tall, or red-haired, or called Oscar. Their race or sexuality weren't plot points, they were just people.* But then I have had the occasional question "why was he...." like I was trying to make a point or something. I wasn't. People just are people.


Yeah, it's this way for me, too. I don't set out to write characters a certain way, they just start telling me their stories and they are the way they are. I'm working on a zombie story, and the MC is a black man. But I didn't say, "hey, you need to write a story about some guy running from zombies, and let's see, he's going to be black", he just is the person he is.

I've got a SF novel with all sorts of human variations in it. It's not like I have a check list, though. They are telling me their story, and showing me who they are, what they think and feel, how they look. It's really neat, actually.

There may be people who will only read white characters, or straight characters, or young characters, or whatever, but there are many more who will see those kinds of characters and say "Finally!". Make your book the best it can be, market it the best you can, and write some more books.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

glc3 said:


> Does the race of the hero in a book matter to you?
> 
> Recently a friend and I were talking and he wondered allowed if the fact that our books feature black protagonist might be limiting our sales. I don't believe so but I was wondering what others think.
> 
> Read more here: http://www.thedeadwarseries.com/2014/04/does-race-of-hero-in-book-matter-to-you.html


Nope and neither does gender. What matters is that the hero be someone I can like. Even anti-heroes have to have some redeemable feature about their personality that make you want them to win the day.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Wansit said:


> Agreed. Although something I've noticed is that he's never depicted on the covers except in silouhette.
> 
> Viola R., I applaud you (and not just for that - you've gone through a lot). At first I wondered if what you thought was true. Race and writing can be a mixed basket. When I was growing up it was impossible to find protagonists who were minorities (of any race) anywhere in scifi/fantasy for young adults. The only time I did find them was in the 'cultural' sections and those were historical books. So I decided to test the theory.
> 
> My covers below - the pretty dresses are all different characters but even the protagonist (on the first book) isn't as dark as she should be being Latina. So my next series I tried to find the perfect representation. That's the girl with the sword on the last cover. That book has blown all of my other sales out of the water. It released last month and hasn't stopped climbing. It's in the Top 400 now. Will it stop there? Who knows. But I do know this now - having a black protagonist and cover model did nothing to hinder my sales.


That's because of the genre Alex Cross is in. Remember, most books don't have a picture of someone on the cover, it's more rare. I personally wouldn't, just because I want to imagine what the character looks like. Kind of like that movie thing you here people say, "I just didn't think they would look like that." Romance is different, but, as I look at all the books on my shelf, I can't see ONE that has the picture of the MC on it.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

I mean, I guess, you could compare it to the whole president/Christianity thing. There won't be a president who'll admit to being an Atheist/Agnostic, regardless if they are or aren't. It just simply political suicide. But I also believe it's all in how it's portrayed. I like to bring up American History X (one of the greatest films ever made). The young black prison buddy of Derek's is black, and he's instantly likeable! Easily, the most likeable character in the movie. It's all in how you portray the story through the character's eyes.

Plus, it's harder to see color in books than it is in film. I personally don't think it matters because a character should (as should a person) be defined by their actions, not their race...


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2014)

antares said:


> Does it matter to me? No.
> 
> Will it matter to some others? Yes, but they are not your market.


Best response in the entire thread. Bravo.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

antares said:


> Does it matter to me? No.
> 
> Will it matter to some others? Yes, but they are not your market.


So, so true.

Personally, I don't care. Just tell me a good story. Entertain me and I won't care if your characters are purple with green polka dots.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Does it matter to me? I think it does. Not that I prefer one over the other, but whenever I'm reading one of Toni Morrison's books, I slip into a fictive dream that shaded differently than let's say Ursula le Guin. I bring with it my perceived differences in how the different races perceive the world. And I'm sure much of that is caricatures my brain has formed from the news or from shows and from friends I have that are black or Hispanic. The only race I find I have a hard time relating to is Asian. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe it's because I've never had an Asian friend, and I haven't seen much in the way of movies or news besides Bruce Lee stuff. It makes books with an Asian protag less enjoyable for me.


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

> Does it matter to me? I think it does. Not that I prefer one over the other, but whenever I'm reading one of Toni Morrison's books, I slip into a fictive dream that shaded differently than let's say Ursula le Guin. I bring with it my perceived differences in how the different races perceive the world. And I'm sure much of that is caricatures my brain has formed from the news or from shows and from friends I have that are black or Hispanic. The only race I find I have a hard time relating to is Asian. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe it's because I've never had an Asian friend, and I haven't seen much in the way of movies or news besides Bruce Lee stuff. It makes books with an Asian protag less enjoyable for me.


My hubby is a senior research scientist for a big drug company. When we have a garden party for his department at work, the neighbors probably think the Chinese have invaded. (Am I allowed to make a joke like that? In forty years, I'll probably be arrested for that, but I'll be dead by then.) They are a mixed group of new immigrants, second generation Asian Americans, couples with one of each, and from many different Asian countries, actually. Regarding prejudice against African Americans, I have to say, probably politically incorrect again, that when I come to one of the few black people to make conversation, I breathe a huge sigh of relief, because I will not be struggling for the next ten minutes to try to understand his or her accent. In many environments these days, the black people are not "different." They are "one of us," meaning blessedly English as a first language speakers.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Hmm, you know, I have to take it back. Amy Tan's books are some of my favorites. Not sure why she pulls it off in such a way that I can relate, where others don't. I wonder if it's because so much of her books are dedicated to the differences in culture, that it feels like she's telling it from a familiar perspective.


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## komura 420 (Aug 25, 2013)

'White people, black people, brown people, yellow people, get rid of 'em all/ All we need is a voluntary, free spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction/ Everybody just gotta keep f*****' everybody til they're all the same color'

-US Senator Jay Bullworth


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

Ros_Jackson said:


> I prefer to read about characters from diverse backgrounds. So I'd definitely not be put off by a hero with a different racial background to my own.


Same here. I think that's part of the reason I enjoy fantasy and fiction set elsewhere and elsewhen.



kurzon said:


> No point pretending there are not a lot of racists out there.


It's not that simple, unless you mean that every person has some beliefs about other people, beliefs accurate or not developed over a lifetime of living with other people who share their beliefs either verbally or by a host of nonverbal methods like eye movement or body tensing or sudden silence.



Cherise Kelley said:


> I prefer it when the author doesn't describe the characters' skin color, hair color, eye color, etc, just their clothes and mannerisms. Let my imagination fill in those details.


Ouch. That's a good way to write only white characters.



GaryCecil said:


> Plus, it's harder to see color in books than it is in film. I personally don't think it matters because a character should (as should a person) be defined by their actions, not their race...


More ouch. Come on, you guys, stop making all of us white people look oblivious. 

I just don't believe that I'm the only white person who feels that, if there's an African American section in the bookstore, I'm not supposed to be there. There's a keep-out vibe strong enough to touch.

It makes me wonder how it feels to be a person who's other most of the time. No! Don't tell me! I don't want to feel obligated to do something about it.



Vaalingrade said:


> I'll add that I'm also biracial


And here I always thought you were Mangan.

Edited to add lots of  so people don't think I'm _angry_ or _strident_ or otherwise unwomanly.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2014)

I wrote an almost memoir kind of book featuring a black family and my best customers have been white people. How do I know this is this technological age? Because I do a lot of hand-selling. My story is what draws people because my book doesn't focus on skin color; it focuses on growing up country in the 1980s and is seemingly very relatable to this particular demographic.


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## 58907 (Apr 3, 2012)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> I just don't believe that I'm the only white person who feels that, if there's an African American section in the bookstore, I'm not supposed to be there. There's a keep-out vibe strong enough to touch.


I believe it's there. I've always wondered why those books have to be segregated. It's not like you can't find your author if the books are alphabetized by author name. And if you want to read exclusively about minorities and they're on the cover, I'm pretty sure you can find them among other books(if the layout is set up like it is at Wal-mart with the covers out. ;-)).

I've heard the argument that black people need to be able to find "their" books, hence the segregation. Ummm....yeah. If you're talking non-fiction then I'm sure it's different, but in romance if everyone is together, I think that'll help my sales ease any tension and the perception that white people don't want to read about minorities and vice versa.

I sometimes want to sneak some books to either shelves while I'm in Wal-mart, hehe.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

KVictoriaChase said:


> I believe it's there. I've always wondered why those books have to be segregated. It's not like you can't find your author if the books are alphabetized by author name. And if you want to read exclusively about minorities and they're on the cover, I'm pretty sure you can find them among other books(if the layout is set up like it is at Wal-mart with the covers out. ;-)).
> 
> I've heard the argument that black people need to be able to find "their" books, hence the segregation. Ummm....yeah. If you're talking non-fiction then I'm sure it's different, but in romance if everyone is together, I think that'll help my sales ease any tension and the perception that white people don't want to read about minorities and vice versa.
> 
> I sometimes want to sneak some books to either shelves while I'm in Wal-mart, hehe.


Yeah, it screws black authors, big time, to have a "black" section. Readers assume that section is dedicated to racial issues. You wonder how many romance and thriller books have been passed over because someone wasn't in the mood for racial debate.


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## Issy (Aug 25, 2013)

When an author doesn't describe race, because they're trying to let the reader fill in the blanks, I think it misses something. After all, the other characters in the book will react to various characters in different ways according to their perceptions of race so it can reveal a lot about one's characters. It doesn't have to be a political essay; just observation. How someone reacts to race will tell a lot about their ages, and background, right down to the words they use to describe race. "Biracial", "dual heritage", "mixed race" or even - with specific meanings in South Africa, and derogatory meanings elsewhere - "coloured". I am from a mixed family and when I was small my cousin was referred to as "half caste" which is pretty vile, to my ears - but that was the time, and those were the people. It is revealing.

It seems to me to be a different issue in the US to the UK, or at least, has different weights and importance to various sections of society. When I wrote my first East Lancashire novel I realised there were no black characters - but in the village, there simply weren't. There are some second-generation Pakistani characters in the next one (out soon!) because that is realistic to the area. 

While an individual character's race does not matter to me, as a reader - the overall reflection of society within that book's worldview DOES matter. I could not read a book set in London or Leeds or Manchester with only white characters - that would be totally unrealistic. And if I read a book set in a tiny rural all-white village, and a black family move in, that's totally plausible BUT I would expect the other characters to react to it, according to their own feelings, because if a non-racist, fluffy, perfect society is depicted, that's not reflecting anyone's experience particularly accurately. And, let's face it, how white folks talk about race when they are (or they think they are...) in all-white company IS different to how they talk if there is a black or Asian person present. All of us writing replies here, publicly, are being very careful, aren't we? That's all well and good but as someone else said above, racism exists, and in all sorts of ways, not always obvious. 

tl;dr - individual character's race does not matter, but overall representation of society does.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Philip Chen said:


> Race only matters if it is critical to the development of the story.


Yes and no.

I just finished reading a series with an exotic locale and a few exotic elements, including the main character's race and culture.

Normally I don't care about the race of the characters, per se, but in these stories it was integral to the plot and added a very exotic/sexy element.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> I just don't believe that I'm the only white person who feels that, if there's an African American section in the bookstore, I'm not supposed to be there. There's a keep-out vibe strong enough to touch.


Seriously. . . ?


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

One of my favorite urban fantasy / mystery series is the Rivers of London series by Ben Aaronovich.  His MC is biracial, and there are, it seems, every combination of mied-races you can imagine - and apparently this is pretty common in London these days. The personification of Mother Thames is, I believe, Nigerian.

In one of the Doctor Who series, one of his (white) companions (was that Donna?) had a black boyfriend that she was planning on marrying. I don't remember there being any fuss about it, that's just the way things were.

So I think you can have any mix of racial heritage in your characters you want, as long as there's no fuss about it and it's all treated matter-of-factly.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> I could not read a book set in London or Leeds or Manchester with only white characters - that would be totally unrealistic.


The plot might involve only one race. Perhaps it is a story, and not a profile of the population.

When I am truly bored and stuck in traffic, I will count how many cars pass where passengers represent more than one race. The count is usually zero. Try it. It helps pass the time with 5 PM gridlock. Aggregate social ideals are often not expressed at the micro level.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm about as pasty as white guys come. I've never given race a second thought. It shouldn't matter. Maybe it does to some people but those people are... well... stupid. Unfortunately I think you can always count on 10% of the population to believe just about anything. Sometimes even higher.

When I write, I don't come out and tell the reader the race of an individual. There are descriptions that are drawn throughout the story, sure but a lot of times the race could go in numerous directions. I think there are stories where it is required. For instance, if you're writing about slave life in the 1800s. But if you're writing a book about war in the middle-east and you need to know if the guy is black or white then you might have missed the whole point of Dr. King's speech (which sadly a lot of people do).

I guess what I'm trying to say is figure out if it's necessary to the plot and/or subplots first. And don't feel obligated to include racial subplots if you do happen to divulge a person's race in the story. Believe it or not, there are people out there who just don't give a damn and get tired of always hearing about it. And they come in all colors.


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## 58907 (Apr 3, 2012)

beccaprice said:


> One of my favorite urban fantasy / mystery series is the Rivers of London series by Ben Aaronovich. His MC is biracial, and there are, it seems, every combination of mied-races you can imagine - and apparently this is pretty common in London these days. The personification of Mother Thames is, I believe, Nigerian.
> 
> In one of the Doctor Who series, one of his (white) companions (was that Donna?) had a black boyfriend that she was planning on marrying. I don't remember there being any fuss about it, that's just the way things were.
> 
> So I think you can have any mix of racial heritage in your characters you want, as long as there's no fuss about it and it's all treated matter-of-factly.


IR relationships seem to be quite common in BBC/UK shows--from what I've seen. And you're totally right--there's no fuss about it.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

I'm also one of those people who imagine the characters a certain way in my mind and am usually a little shocked when I see the writer's idea of the characters or if the book is made into a movie, the director's idea of the characters.

I loved Morgan Freeman as Alex Cross, though. Even though he is not how I imagined the character. But I simply cannot accept Tyler Perry as Alex Cross, although he is closer to Patterson's description in the books.


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

My what an interesting thread.

The race of the hero/heroine doesn't matter to me personally because if it did, my options as a young black girl would have been fairly limited, particularly in speculative fiction where my life as a reader began. I agree with Viola and others that you're not going to find as many people willing to admit that they're turned off by the ethnic background of a character, but they're out there. I don't understand that. I have not experienced life as a dragon rider, a demon hundreds of years old, the brightest witch of my age, or even an old bitter man bent on destroying two families for his revenge and unrequited love, and yet,
those are some of my favorite characters. Also if someone thinks another human ethnic group is less relatable (because they're a different ethnicity) than say a werewolf,  an alien, or any other category of experience they don't personally have? Yeah, racist.

That said, I don't know that the ethnicity of your characters is hurting the sales of your particular book. I have a black female protag in my first series because I enjoy when characters like me are included in my genres, and I didn't want to always be at the mercy of other's willingness to include.  I didn't make her ethnicity the focus of the story but it's a part of her identity so it's a factor. I have assumed that the sales of my book (or lack thereof) are due to being one title by an unknown author in a sea of millions. I'll keep writing and see what happens. I do think in my YA/UF genre my sales might be helped by putting a gorgeous girl in either a massive dress  or skintight clothing on my cover, but I wasn't interested in doing that.

My question is, even if you could prove your hero's ethnicity was a factor in your sales, what if anything would you do differently?


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## Issy (Aug 25, 2013)

beccaprice said:


> So I think you can have any mix of racial heritage in your characters you want, as long as there's no fuss about it and it's all treated matter-of-factly.


Depends on where you are in the UK. (I'm UK.) Some places, yeah, totally normal and everyday. Other places, different people WILL still react so this means - as I said above - the other characters will react. Some people react to a mixed marriage with horror (a tiny minority of EDL/BNP types). Others will be polite but privately express "concern for the children" (I kid you not!) Others will feel awkward and very keen to "say the right thing" and end up stumbling through well-meaning mistakes.

The BBC likes to portray mixed relationships as all sweetness and light in primetime drama like Doctor Who because they are in the business of trying to show us the sort of society "they" all think we ought to aspire to, rather than the slightly unpalatable reality of many people's lives; it's fantasy, and I'm not saying that's wrong, just that how things are portrayed in mainstream media, and how things are, are slightly different.

It's all a very interesting discussion and it's made me think even more deeply about it and how I write about it. Also it's going to depend on genre and how you want the reader to feel, too. Some issues in a light fluffy romance will be glossed over whereas in a gritty heart-breaking drama they might be more central.

Perhaps the title of the whole thread is misleading. Does race matter? can't be answered with yes or no.

It depends...


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## Issy (Aug 25, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> The plot might involve only one race. Perhaps it is a story, and not a profile of the population.


I am definitely starting to think things are different in the US. Everything is way more squashed together here in the UK. In somewhere like London, you could not go a day without interacting with at least two or three different ethnicities.


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## 58907 (Apr 3, 2012)

Isabella Brooke said:


> The BBC likes to portray mixed relationships as all sweetness and light in primetime drama like Doctor Who because they are in the business of trying to show us the sort of society "they" all think we ought to aspire to, rather than the slightly unpalatable reality of many people's lives; it's fantasy, and I'm not saying that's wrong, just that how things are portrayed in mainstream media, and how things are, are slightly different.


What?!?! Are you saying it was all a fantasy that Guinevere was black? And here I thought Arthur had ushered in a new era of Camelot. Ahh, man!


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> The plot might involve only one race. Perhaps it is a story, and not a profile of the population.
> 
> When I am truly bored and stuck in traffic, I will count how many cars pass where passengers represent more than one race. The count is usually zero. Try it. It helps pass the time with 5 PM gridlock. Aggregate social ideals are often not expressed at the macro level.


I get what you're saying, but unless you're talking about a remote/rural location and an isolated population, it's difficult to create a world with only one ethnic group unless that's your intention. If that's not a specific plot element or feature of your world, I don't understand why a writer would want to. The world, and certainly the US, hasn't been homogenized isolated blocks of people for a while now. I can't imagine for example, trying to tell a story set in Seattle that doesn't have any Asian characters, or why it would be important to my plot to not have any.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

winifredburton said:


> My question is, even if you could prove your hero's ethnicity was a factor in your sales, what if anything would you do differently?


I'd go where the money is. If it's like they say and Hispanics become the majority race in the U.S. in my lifetime, and they are the majority of readers, and there's a direct correlation between the race of an MC and sales, I'm naming every MC Juan, Pablo, or Jose. It ain't the race that matters to me, it's the ideas and personality. I can give my views through any color protag.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Isabella Brooke said:


> I am definitely starting to think things are different in the US. Everything is way more squashed together here in the UK. In somewhere like London, you could not go a day without interacting with at least two or three different ethnicities.


In the US, some things are squashed, and some are spread out. However, that doesn't mean the plot involves more than one race. The total mix of people one interacts with might have nothing to do with the plot. It depends on what the interaction is.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Heck, I still can't believe that I haven't heard at least one disparaging remark about SCANDAL.

I wish I believed that it's because society has evolved, but I suspect folks are hating on the show privately.

I remember a forum I frequented when Vin Deisel was at the height of his popularity. The Caucasian female fans would steer clear of his racial ambiguity under the guise of "let's respect his privacy". It felt like they couldn't feel comfortable lusting after him while also acknowledging his race. It felt very dishonest to me.


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## Issy (Aug 25, 2013)

KVictoriaChase said:


> What?!?! Are you saying it was all a fantasy that Guinevere was black? And here I thought Arthur had ushered in a new era of Camelot. Ahh, man!


LOL - actually, who knows? I used to teach, and one of my favourite lessons was about the history of "British" people. I'd do a great big spreadsheet to show how many generational ancestors each person has (30 years ago, 2 parents... 60 years ago, 4 grandparents... 90 years ago, 8 great-grandparents.) By the time you get to the eleventh century, you have more "ancestors" than there was population of Britain (over generalisation not taking into account intermarriage). THEN I would show all the waves of incomers that make up "British" and that includes, of course, the Roman army, who recruited from everywhere including North Africa and who had a policy of moving the young men far away from home because once you were Roman, you were Roman, regardless of background. Of course a horny young Egyptian archer would have got it on with the young ladies of "England" and some of them would have settled, too. Plus Celts, Angles, Saxons, Normans, Vikings, Danes, Jutes, Jews from all over, Hugenots, and a hundred more I have forgotten.

I used to teach this in prisons, often to some hardcore "white supremacists". The BNP (our icky "national" party ie bunch of racists) talked of the idea of being "ethnically English"... well, I would say to the guys at the end of my extravaganza, any one of you who can prove to me you are "ethnically English" with only "white" blood in you (what does that even MEAN?!) go ahead and vote BNP. The more I know of history, the more I get infuriated by how much race influences people's worries these days. I know the US has a particularly painful history in this regard and I cannot speak to that, though.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

winifredburton said:


> I get what you're saying, but unless you're talking about a remote/rural location and an isolated population, it's difficult to create a world with only one ethnic group unless that's your intention. If that's not a specific plot element or feature of your world, I don't understand why a writer would want to. The world, and certainly the US, hasn't been homogenized isolated blocks of people for a while now. I can't imagine for example, trying to tell a story set in Seattle that doesn't have any Asian characters, or why it would be important to my plot to not have any.


I would leave those questions to the individual writer. It all depends on the story, characters, interactions, etc. I don't know why people do lots of things. But I don't see much reason to limit what a writer can do by demanding quotas in a novel.

In terms of creating a world, Id say we can take the world as it is. The way it is has zillions of situations where the people involved are only one race. It has zillions of other situations where they are mixed. Both are fair game for novels and plots.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Isabella Brooke said:


> I am definitely starting to think things are different in the US. Everything is way more squashed together here in the UK. In somewhere like London, you could not go a day without interacting with at least two or three different ethnicities.


Depends on where you go. Demographics change depending on where you are. For instance, you'll find more native americans in my state (Oklahoma) than you would in New York. The more rural areas in Oklahoma have a higher white population than in the cities. Most cities I've lived in have higher minority populations in cities than suburbs or small towns. I don't think it's self-segregation. I think that's just how it worked out.


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## Issy (Aug 25, 2013)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Depends on where you go. Demographics change depending on where you are. For instance, you'll find more native americans in my state (Oklahoma) than you would in New York. The more rural areas in Oklahoma have a higher white population than in the cities. Most cities I've lived in have higher minority populations in cities than suburbs or small towns. I don't think it's self-segregation. I think that's just how it worked out.


So much to learn! Thank you and everyone else who pointed this fact out. I just had this massive over-generalisation of America being so big and Britain being all tiny. Sorry.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Depends on where you go. Demographics change depending on where you are. For instance, you'll find more native americans in my state (Oklahoma) than you would in New York. The more rural areas in Oklahoma have a higher white population than in the cities. Most cities I've lived in have higher minority populations in cities than suburbs or small towns. I don't think it's self-segregation. I think that's just how it worked out.


Hey Daniel (love your covers) you're right it's not necessarily self-segregation but there is a history behind WHY there are more minorities in cities than small towns. Here's some info on Sundown Towns: http://www.tulsalibrary.org/blog/african-american-history-month-oklahomas-sundown-towns


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Depends on where you go. Demographics change depending on where you are. For instance, you'll find more native americans in my state (Oklahoma) than you would in New York. The more rural areas in Oklahoma have a higher white population than in the cities. Most cities I've lived in have higher minority populations in cities than suburbs or small towns. I don't think it's self-segregation. I think that's just how it worked out.


You'd think so, but that's not necessarily true.

We have several Indian reservations here in New York and Native Americans were a huge part of construction crews that built New York.


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I would leave those questions to the individual writer. It all depends on the story, characters, interactions, etc. I don't know why people do lots of things. But I don't see much reason to limit what a writer can do by demanding quotas in a novel.
> 
> In terms of creating a world, Id say we can take the world as it is. The way it is has zillions of situations where the people involved are only one race. It has zillions of other situations where they are mixed. Both are fair game for novels and plots.


Perhaps I was misunderstood. I don't believe in quotas for writers, or that writers should "have" to include anything or anyone in particular in their work. I do believe that certain erasures (particularly ethnicity) are intentional though sometimes subconscious. It's not an act of happenstance.

Unrelated to your comment Terrence. Does anyone else think it's weird that the assumption is that a character's ethnicity would drive/skew a plot? The PP who mentioned his novel where discovering his protag's ethnicity was the key to the plot and that's pretty interesting. Outside of that sort of thing, wouldn't a character's ethnicity provide texture or interest but not derail a plot not about ethnic culture?


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Isabella Brooke said:


> So much to learn! Thank you and everyone else who pointed this fact out. I just had this massive over-generalisation of America being so big and Britain being all tiny. Sorry.


Well, I'm sure there are historical reasons for how different races came to different areas. Obviously, African American populations were higher in the south following the emancipation proclamation because of slavery. If I had to guess I'd say the trend was still higher in southern than northern states. You'll see higher Hispanic populations in the south than the north because a lot immigrated from south american. In Oklahoma, we have a huge population of Native Americans because of the trail of tears. There are actually lands put into a federal trust for the varying Native American tribes (not all Native Americans are the same. There are a lot of different tribes) so they legally have their own "nations" within the U.S. If you drive across Oklahoma on the Interstate, you would pass an enormous number of casinos, many of which rival those in Las Vegas. They're built by the Native Americans and aren't subject to taxation. There's your (potentially) useless Oklahoma fact for the day.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

For the OP:  How do readers know what race the MC is?  I didn't notice.  Of course, I couldn't get through the Look Inside excerpt, but nothing clued me into the characters' race in what I did read.

---

I have to admit that I usually avoid books with minorities that are supposed to be ABOUT the minority experience (rather than just being a good book that just happens to feature someone of that minority) by someone of a different race than the minority they are writing.

My kids are biracial.  I don't think they've every noticed race in books one way or another.  Like, at all.

I am NOT a self-projecting reader.  Not.  At.  All.  I want excitement and interest and something I can really dig into.  I want a new experience.  I don't want to think I am/could be the MC.  Lots of readers do, though, so I've shifted the types of MCs I write because of that.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Isabella Brooke said:


> I am definitely starting to think things are different in the US. Everything is way more squashed together here in the UK. In somewhere like London, you could not go a day without interacting with at least two or three different ethnicities.


Here in America, we're _all about_ the desperate scrabbling to ignore our poor race relations.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Perhaps I was misunderstood. I don't believe in quotas for writers, or that writers should "have" to include anything or anyone in particular in their work. I do believe that certain erasures (particularly ethnicity) are intentional though sometimes subconscious. It's not an act of happenstance.


Well, I cant comment on an authors intention or subconscious in what she doesnt include in her book. Its her book. How do I know her mindset in developing her plot and characters?

Id say lots of things are not included in books, but that doesnt mean they are erased. Erasing presumes intention. I suspect many authors pull things into their books because they fit with the story and plot. That means they leave all kinds of things behind. I cant really tell an author she is wrong about her plot, setting, characters, or novel. I cant go through all the things she didnt include and say she should have. And I sure cant do it without reading the book first. There are no general rules authors have to follow.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Here in America, we're _all about_ the desperate scrabbling to ignore our poor race relations.


I remember a commercial the government put out, maybe 25 or 30 years ago. Two high school aged kids come into the lunch room, one's white, the other black. They get their lunch, chatting, smiling, all friendly, and once they've loaded up their trays, they get out of the chow line, one says, "Boy, I'm glad you and I don't have any racial issues." The other agrees, and then they go off, the white sitting at a table with all whites, and the black sitting at a table with all blacks. That's the predominant American race relation.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Here in America, we're _all about_ the desperate scrabbling to ignore our poor race relations.


Pretty much this.

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

glc3 said:


> Recently a friend and I were talking and he wondered allowed if the fact that our books feature black protagonist might be limiting our sales. I don't believe so but I was wondering what others think.


I don't think having a black protagonist will limit your sales since the cover of your book doesn't clearly show the race of the character. If you did, there probably would be a segment of users who would not buy it.

I put a black couple on the front of my book because I'm specifically targeting readers of black romance books. The 99% of the profiles of the Goodreads users who have added my book to their shelves show that. Will some people pass it over because the leads are black? Yes. I expect that. I'm not marketing to them though.

As a result of that, in essence, having only black characters on the cover will limit my sales. But it will also limit my sales in the same way that sci-fi and mystery readers will pass it over.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Id say lots of things are not included in books, but that doesnt mean they are erased. Erasing presumes intention. I suspect many authors pull things into their books because they fit with the story and plot.


When I created my core characters I decided who they were and what they believed in regards to the plot. Physical appearances came during writing. I'm sure with some of them you could read enough of a description to get different answers from different people. The MC I always pictured as a white male but I don't think his skin tone was ever stated. The female lead was described as a pale red-head. In the sequel there's another major female character whose race was left undefined. Her descriptions come from the MC's POV and she's described as an angel because of her long white hair (her most defining feature). But later she states it was once black as the night. I suppose her race could be interpreted in numerous ways.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

_Does the race of the hero in a book matter to you? _

Nope.

In fact, I find it refreshing to read about non-white characters once in a while.


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> I remember a commercial the government put out, maybe 25 or 30 years ago. Two high school aged kids come into the lunch room, one's white, the other black. They get their lunch, chatting, smiling, all friendly, and once they've loaded up their trays, they get out of the chow line, one says, "Boy, I'm glad you and I don't have any racial issues." The other agrees, and then they go off, the white sitting at a table with all whites, and the black sitting at a table with all blacks. That's the predominant American race relation.


THIS. I've never seen the commercial you're talking about, but it sums up some of my experiences as a person of color in the United States quite nicely, especially the social segregation when I lived in the south. Talking about it is difficult for several reasons, but pretending it's not there, or that talking about it is the problem, doesn't help.


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## 70040 (May 17, 2013)

Will C. Brown said:


> I don't think having a black protagonist will limit your sales since the cover of your book doesn't clearly show the race of the character. If you did, there probably would be a segment of users who would not buy it.
> 
> I put a black couple on the front of my book because I'm specifically targeting readers of black romance books. The 99% of the profiles of the Goodreads users who have added my book to their shelves show that. Will some people pass it over because the leads are black? Yes. I expect that. I'm not marketing to them though.
> 
> As a result of that, in essence, having only black characters on the cover will limit my sales. But it will also limit my sales in the same way that sci-fi and mystery readers will pass it over.


I agree that this isn't a problem if you're not marketing to people who avoid books about people of color. If your target market is everyone, you won't hit that.

Myself, I settled on the group I know best, younger nerdy women of all ethnicities. If other people like it, fantastic.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

I think only the older generations have problems with race. Different era and all that.


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## 58907 (Apr 3, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> The other agrees, and then they go off, the white sitting at a table with all whites, and the black sitting at a table with all blacks.


This still happens today. My dad is a public school teacher(high school) and he sees this in the lunchroom everyday.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

von19 said:


> I think only the older generations have problems with race. Different era and all that.


Agreed. Seems to be a generational thing in some ways. I've met a lot of racists. Most of them were born before 1960. I've met some my own age but not nearly as many and very seldom have I encountered any in their 20s. My experiences have mostly been limited to professional settings so I can't speak to what schools are like.


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## LanelleH (Jul 4, 2013)

Honestly seeing a poc as a main character makes me want to read a book even more, especially if it's young adult.  I just steer clear of books where the only topic seems to be of the character's race.  It's almost like people think that's the only type of experience worth writing when it comes to people of color which annoys me.


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## Marie Long (Jan 11, 2014)

Race doesn't matter to me. In fact, I do like to see diversity in the books I read.


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## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

von19 said:


> I think only the older generations have problems with race. Different era and all that.


I wish this were true, but there was a sickening social media firestorm when some readers of The Hunger Games only realized Rue was black when they saw the film. These were young people posting vitriol.

I actually care more about the MC's gender than race. But I admit, I'm less likely to skip a book with a black protag if the book is about being black simply because it isn't usually relatable to my black experience. But then again, that's why I don't read much romance because they don't often reflect what I consider romantic.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

When I saw the Hunger movie, I figured the movie people just decided to make her district black. I had just read the book, and didn't remember anything about race. OK. Then people started saying the book identified her as black. I still don't remember anything from the book. But, like I said, I didn't know Alex Cross was black until the third book I read.



> Agreed. Seems to be a generational thing in some ways.


Each new generation coming of age says the same thing.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Terrence OBrien said:


> When I saw the Hunger movie, I figured the movie people just decided to make her district black. I had just read the book, and didn't remember anything about race. OK. Then people started saying the book identified her as black. I still don't remember anything from the book. But, like I said, I didn't know Alex Cross was black until the third book I read.
> 
> Each new generation coming of age says the same thing.


I'd have to go back and look. My wife has read them through so many times she might know the answer straight-away. But on that note too, she says she always saw Johanna Mason as a black. I always saw her as a white skin-head. I didn't have a first impression about Rhue. I watched the film first.


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

Nashira said:


> I wish this were true, but there was a sickening social media firestorm when some readers of The Hunger Games only realized Rue was black when they saw the film. These were young people posting vitriol.


I remember that. I read the books first and immediately realized that Rue and her district were mostly black. I always assumed Suzanne Collins was alluding to slavery since that district was agricultural, they worked in fields, and it was more locked down than the other districts.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Regarding the Rue thing, I _completely_ understand. When you create mental images of books and actors fail to meet those standards you get upset. I was upset too (not to the point of spewing vitriol but pretty miffed), so I reread the book to be sure.

And what did I find? Cinna was described once and very briefly as having darker skin. Somehow I had missed that. My mental image was wrong. And Rue? After carefully rereading I noticed something especially intriguing. For *A LOT* of her characters Suzanne Collins gave little to no details on their actual appearance. This was the same for Rue as well, she could have been any race based on the amount of detail that was given, she could have been green.

I found this so interesting because if you asked me to describe every character after I read it, i could easily draw a picture. And if you asked me where I got all these very descriptive details from I would have said, "The book of course."

But they were never there.

So, what does this mean? I have an over active imagination? No. I think it speaks more of Ms. Collins. She was able to write in such a way that I constructed these elaborate fantasies in my mind that I believed to be 100% accurate. That revelation made me sit in my room staring at her book for hours.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I'm sure there will always be racists among us, but I like to think that with each generation, we're getting better about things like race, homosexuality, and gender expectations.

but then, I write fairy tales for a living.


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## minxmalone (Oct 28, 2012)

von19 said:


> And Rue? After carefully rereading I noticed something especially intriguing. For *A LOT* of her characters Suzanne Collins gave little to no details on their actual appearance. This was the same for Rue as well, she could have been any race based on the amount of detail that was given, she could have been green.


I've noticed that when you write a character that is different from what people are expecting, they often see what they want to see. Rue is described specifically as having dark brown skin. And her district is known for agriculture where they all work in the fields. I actually thought it was a pretty ballsy reference to slavery and the antebellum south (which the author acknowledges she did on purpose). Here is a direct quote from the book:

"And most hauntingly, a twelve-year-old girl from District 11. She has dark brown skin and eyes, but other than that, she's very like Prim in size and demeanor."―Katniss Everdeen, while watching Rue's reaping

This is one of the biggest issues in writing multicultural fiction. I had people complain that they didn't know what race my characters were in Book 1 of my series and I just had to laugh. The two brothers in the family are described on page 2 as having "golden-brown skin, dark eyes, and curly black hair". People see what they want to see and disregard anything that doesn't fit their expectations. They aren't doing it out of malice. It's just one more way that the brain assimilates information, by disregarding anything that doesn't fit.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

winifredburton said:


> I can't imagine for example, trying to tell a story set in Seattle that doesn't have any Asian characters, or why it would be important to my plot to not have any.


Having recently spent three months researching a soon to be published novel about Seattle, with a strong focus on the Japanese American community, I would surprisingly have to disagree. My main sources (and beta readers) were two life long Seattleites, one 2nd generation Chinese and the other 3rd generation Japanese. They both viewed Seattle as a very white city and were amused that I had been expecting to find a city with a large Asian population. Neither of them would be at all surprised to read a novel about Seattle that was as white as the snow on Rainier/Tacoma. This is not surprising for a city that kicked out the Chinese in the 19th century and the Japanese in the 20th century, all the while naming itself after a Native American who was forced to sign a treaty. You might guess that my novel is ever so slightly political (to employ a bit of British understatement). Despite all that the MC is white. Most of her friends have no race designated although their forenames might lead readers to make assumptions about their ethnicity. Typical of literary fiction not only are their races unspecified, but so are their looks and their clothes. Spending time describing a character's appearance is not a big feature of the literary fiction genre.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

The hero of the race?










Oh, wait...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Race matters to a lot of *cough* white *cough* people. I should know; I'm related to most of them.

Sure, "I don't buy no books with those <insert slur of choice> on the cover" people aren't a majority, or even a good part of the minority. But racism is far beyond that. My limited focus of everyday casual racism isn't that huge, since I don't encounter it. But I notice it. I've noticed it on KB. I've noticed it on Facebook. I've noticed it in my reviews. etc etc etc. It's there and it's important to recognize it (even if we say screw it, we're moving on).

Many books still default white/describe other. _The Writer_ had an excellent article about this maybe 5 years ago. The author said white authors and readers (in particular) go into a book assuming everyone is white unless their ethnicity is described. No one is described as "the white girl behind the counter" and everyone else is described as "the Asian girl behind the counter." Sometimes, people go with "the guy at the ATM" (codeword: he's white) whereas "the guy at the ATM with the tanned skin of the American tribes" (codeword: he ain't white, because we're telling you). So the author challenged writers to move beyond that and stop making "white" the default in their books.

I've had Goodreads and Amazon remove some of my reviews. One described First Wrong Impressions as the "racial paint-by-numbers." Another complained about the large numbers of people of colour in FWI because it detracted from the story. Still another complained when they discovered Rachel in the Spirit Caller series was aboriginal, since she'd never been described by her skin tone. I can go on and on.

(I won't even get into the gay comments. Most of those are still up because they're just stupid as opposed to offensive, but Amazon did take down a couple really offensive ones).

Anyway, that's my ramble on the subject.


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## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

minxmalone said:


> This is one of the biggest issues in writing multicultural fiction. I had people complain that they didn't know what race my characters were in Book 1 of my series and I just had to laugh. The two brothers in the family are described on page 2 as having "golden-brown skin, dark eyes, and curly black hair". People see what they want to see and disregard anything that doesn't fit their expectations. They aren't doing it out of malice. It's just one more way that the brain assimilates information, by disregarding anything that doesn't fit.


I received a crit suggesting I add more booty jokes so readers would realize my characters were black before mid-story. Literally. Someone put this down in words.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

minxmalone said:


> "And most hauntingly, a twelve-year-old girl from District 11. She has dark brown skin and eyes, but other than that, she's very like Prim in size and demeanor."�-Katniss Everdeen, while watching Rue's reaping


Ahh crap, thanks, how did I miss this? A lot of us didnt catch this I guess. If I would have made this connection it would have saved me a headache lol. I only reread the parts with Cinna and Rue when she first met them and later on. I never thought she would describe her so early on, before we even met her. For books with a lot of characters I need continuous reminders/descriptions because I forget pretty easily unless they're main characters. So I guess I failed to notice this was Rue and because she didn't describe her later on I just automatically assumed she was white.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Nashira said:


> I received a crit suggesting I add more booty jokes so readers would realize my characters were black before mid-story. Literally. Someone put this down in words.


May I tweet/share this?


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## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> May I tweet/share this?


Absolutely!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Nashira said:


> Absolutely!


Thank you. 

Also, UGH.


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## I Give Up (Jan 27, 2014)

Nashira said:


> I received a crit suggesting I add more booty jokes so readers would realize my characters were black before mid-story. Literally. Someone put this down in words.


That's one of those lovely moments where you just want to smack the stupid off them.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Viola Rivard said:


> That's one of those lovely moments where you just want to smack the stupid off them.


Amen.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

That's just... wow.

Sent from the back of a white CIA van using Tapatalk. Please help!


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

So, I guess they've never seen Kim Kardashian's booty, huh? 

Jennifer Lopez' booty? Coco T's?

Hmmm.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel Dennis said:


> That's just... wow.
> 
> Sent from the back of a white CIA van using Tapatalk. Please help!


I'm white, so I can't speak to everyday life as a WOC. I can speak to what I've witnessed (and I'm sure WOC will all tell me bah, that's nothing, which they're 100% right). I've been in stores with aboriginal coworkers and been followed around the store. (I've never been followed in a store since I was 15). Aboriginal coworkers repeatedly commented how they went to pick up <items> at the mall for work and were constantly harassed and followed. My sister's BFF growing up was Chinese, born in Canada. I won't repeat the slurs used against her, but when she moved out here, all of the guys wanted to date her because a) "Asian girls are so exotic" b) "They don't speak English, so can't talk back" c) "They stay thin, so you're guaranteed an obedient, polite, thin girlfriend." Those are just the ones said in my or my sister's presence.

Welcome to the "post-racial" world. It seems a lot like the pre-racial world, to be honest. Only more stupid.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Unfortunately they're everywhere. But is it possible that the negative interactions stand out but the positive ones don't because they're normal? Maybe. I don't know. But I don't think it's as common now as it was fifty years ago. It's not in my circles anyway 

Sent from the back of a white CIA van using Tapatalk. Please help!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Unfortunately they're everywhere. But is it possible that the negative interactions stand out but the positive ones don't because they're normal? Maybe. I don't know. But I don't think it's as common now as it was fifty years ago. It's not in my circles anyway


We should probably ask fellow KBers who are POC to determine if it's common or not, since they live the life. As opposed to both of us, being white, and looking in. Further, since I'm a woman, I also see additional actions that happen to me that my partner, who is male, thought stopped happening during the middle ages.


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## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

Gabriel Garcia Marquez passed away today, and the NYT article about him said this:



> "...wrote fiction rooted in a mythical Latin American landscape of his own creation, but his appeal was universal."


Would that line appear in an article about a white writer, who wrote about white American protagonists? No, because the default assumption is that they're the base standard for 'universal appeal', regardless of however many female, black, Hispanic, Asian, LGBT readers pick up their books.

So unfortunately, yes, race does still matter. Even when its not an issue, its an assumption, and that in some ways can be just as bad.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Also, a timely article: http://www.buzzfeed.com/danieljoseolder/diversity-is-not-enough


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

You know, it's funny. I read so many books set in other countries for school (Mara, Daughter of the Nile, The Master Puppeteer, Red Sails to Capri, Cry the Beloved Country, more I've forgotten the names of), that I just assume that if a book is about a country, it will involve the people who live there. Right now I'm enjoying the heck out of the Last Airbender series with my kids, which is very Asian.

I do avoid books where the author is racist against their character. "Look at me! I'm writing a black MC so I can win points and be so PC!" I despise agenda books. Just tell me a good story. I'm devouring N.D. Wilson's Ashtown Burials series, and it has a multi-racial cast. The MC's mentor is a big black guy I always imagine as Sam Jackson, and he's just so awesome. But the awesome comes from his character and the way he faces down the immortals, not because of his skin.


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## Nicolette Allain (Apr 18, 2014)

Not really.


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## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Gabriel Garcia Marquez passed away today, and the NYT article about him said this:
> 
> Would that line appear in an article about a white writer, who wrote about white American protagonists? No, because the default assumption is that they're the base standard for 'universal appeal', regardless of however many female, black, Hispanic, Asian, LGBT readers pick up their books.
> 
> So unfortunately, yes, race does still matter. Even when its not an issue, its an assumption, and that in some ways can be just as bad.


Thanks so much for pointing this out. Each person who stands up makes me feel a little less crazy.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> We should probably ask fellow KBers who are POC to determine if it's common or not, since they live the life. As opposed to both of us, being white, and looking in. Further, since I'm a woman, I also see additional actions that happen to me that my partner, who is male, thought stopped happening during the middle ages.


Eh, it sucks, but after a while you get used to it. For me it's like having an eternal cold, ever present and annoying, but it can only cripple you if you let it. Its more tiring than anything. But once in a while you'll meet a person who is so nice and open they're like Summer in the way that they warm you up and take away the cold.

I love those people  I met one today.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Nashira said:


> I wish this were true, but there was a sickening social media firestorm when some readers of The Hunger Games only realized Rue was black when they saw the film. These were young people posting vitriol.


Never pay attention to things the internet says. Remember the thing with the Cheerios ad and the adorable little biracial girl? There are a lot of socio/psychopaths on here who aren't even racist, they just like saying racist thing because... BECAUSE.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

I'd just like to say that I don't like it when people don't identify the character's color. I really don't care if in your mind it makes no difference (typically coming from people who are white). When we're talking about color, you can bet that it would matter to the character if they were some nondescript color (which will typically be assumed as white, even by others of different races so says countless studies). My husband is biracial. I know his color has played a role in his life and he's been called nasty names because of his color. Heck, I'm going to go out on a limb and say most anyone non-white has been called something or had something very racist said about them. How could this not shape your character in some way?

There are three things a person sees when they meet you. Gender, age and color. Each of those have a profound effect on not just that person but how society acts toward them. If you don't believe that to be true then you are either autistic (and I mean that literally) or kidding yourself.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

J. R. Blaisy said:


> The young Morse in the ITV series _Endeavour _just concluded had a black girlfriend, a nurse clearly of West Indian extraction but with no trace of a West Indian accent. This is set in 1960s Oxford so she would have had to have been born in the UK during the war. There had been very little immigration from the Caribbean by that time so far as I know, so this seemed unlikely. What was even more unconvincing was that there was no reference at all to the rarity of a inter-racial relationship or the difficulties and surprise they would encounter. Clearly the programme makers were being admirably colour blind, but it is a little distracting in a series whose charm and interest largely depends on accurate depictions of the period.


Maybe the programme makers researched the existence of black Britons a bit better than you. You can start your research here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British#History


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

I write romance--mostly interracial romance, so the character's races are important, but only in the sense that I state which character is which race...and usually my book covers do that for me. 

As for the books I read, the hero or heroine's races are no great importance to me. In fact I grew up on a steady diet of the Danielle Steeles', Nora Roberts' and Barbara Delinskys' etc. Partly because back the '80's there weren't any romance books featuring AA characters in the libraries / bookstores in the area I live in and partly because I simply enjoyed reading the aforementioned author's books. Nowadays I read stories across the board. The race of the hero etc., doesn't matter one iota to me.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

J. R. Blaisy said:


> I would hope they did! And I knew there were black people in Britain from Elizabethan times at least. It's just that there weren't that many, and the programme should have made some mention of the issues likely to have been involved in a mixed relationship. Apart from anything else it would have been more interesting.


If you're actually interested in the topic, BBC's Wartime Farm has an episode that deals with race during WW2, incluing the social mingling of black American troops and British whites at dances and small towns. Plus baseball.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Nashira said:


> I received a crit suggesting I add more booty jokes so readers would realize my characters were black before mid-story. Literally. Someone put this down in words.


Lol


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## J. R. Blaisy (Feb 4, 2014)

Tha


Krista D. Ball said:


> If you're actually interested in the topic, BBC's Wartime Farm has an episode that deals with race during WW2, incluing the social mingling of black American troops and British whites at dances and small towns. Plus baseball.


Thanks for that. Actually it rings a bell -- I may have seen it. As I remember the black American troops were under special restrictions that seem shocking and blatantly racist to us now.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> Never pay attention to things the internet says. Remember the thing with the Cheerios ad and the adorable little biracial girl? There are a lot of socio/psychopaths on here who aren't even racist, they just like saying racist thing because... BECAUSE.


I think this is probably the best advice I've seen. I think the types who got all pissy about the Cheerios commercial are the ones who enjoy the drama (whether it's true or not) because they stand to gain something as a result. The internet is full of fools. Sadly they're usually the ones who scream loudest.

Sent from the back of a white CIA van using Tapatalk. Please help!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

J. R. Blaisy said:


> ThaThanks for that. Actually it rings a bell -- I may have seen it. As I remember the black American troops were under special restrictions that seem shocking and blatantly racist to us now.


As far as I remember, it was because they were Americans, so following their own military rules on segregation. But then they were invited to the local dances by the young ladies, which got all of the white guys worked up  They ever recreated a period dance and brought in expert dancers for it.

I think that's also the episode where...gosh I can't remember her name now...the black young woman was told by the agricultural department that she couldn't go into the rural areas to volunteer on farms; they were fearful of how a black Londoner would be treated. Instead, the papers rallied around her, and several white farmers stepped forward and specifically asked for her to come work for them. They did so because they were afraid others might treat her poorly, so they stepped up to take her knowing she'd be treated well on their farms.

They were able to interview the daughter of the farmer who took on the farming volunteer, who talked about how <the woman's name> was treated, showed pictures, etc.

Just putting it out there for anyone looking for some info on that time period, since you mentioned it.


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

von19 said:


> Seriously. . . ?


As a heart attack. And I'm willing to bet other white people feel the same way but suppress acknowledging it. The books are segregated. That's a pretty powerful symbol.



Daniel Dennis said:


> I'm about as pasty as white guys come. I've never given race a second thought.


OUCH. Why should you? You're the default.



Rayven T. Hill said:


> Alex Cross did ok. Sold a few hundred million if I remember correctly.


Alex Cross gets the stamp of approval because he's written by a white guy.

I think there's a rule that there can only be one successful male POC and one successful female POC in a genre. It's sort of like the rule that the number of characters in a story can't be more than 25% female. (More than 25% and there's a perception those icky wimmens constitute the majority.)

Going back to the OP. I've got a horse in this race. In my trilogy a bunch of black people say to heck with Earth, pile onto a generation ship, and settle on a planet that turns out be inhabited with elf analogues. Ooops. Death and hijinks occur.

So I'm hedging my bet. The covers for the prequel and first book will show no people. The second and third book covers will feature characters.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

My series is about superheroes. I am white, but the leader of the main group is AA. The group splinters, and he goes on to lead one team, a woman another, and a washed up rock star, the third.

I dont mind writing it, and I dont mind reading it. Character trumps all (as in a person's character, not the idea of character versus plot). I have wrestled with the idea of having him on the cover, though...I don't want to be misleading, as he is only slightly more of the MC than the other two. I am hoping to show all three, but that gets busy.

I don't think that's what limits your sales. Like it has been said, the marketplace is crowded, and the answer seems to be diversification of story offerings, as well as increasing the number of titles that are series. I will be grabbing your book soon, I love zombies of all styles.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> OUCH. Why should you? You're the default.


I think this is what's wrong with the world today. You can't go a week without someone going on television and race-baiting. Often times those conversations paint the "default" people as bigots. Then you get people like me who are color-blind to the madness and try to weigh in to show people that not every white guy is a racist and the response is the above quote. Maybe I'm reading too deep into your meaning here but what I read was "your opinion doesn't matter because you're not a minority." If that's the case then you're part of the problem. I base my opinions about people on their actions. Not their skin color. In my view there isn't a default.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

This is an interesting conversation. To me it doesn't matter. But I do want the characters described to me. I read a lot of romance, so maybe that is why. I like to get an idea. Now I read a lot of historical romance and often they are set in england, so most of the characters are white. There are the occasional mixed dukes or earls. 
I see more non white characters when reading historicals set in other areas, there are the native american characters or course, or I have read some with mexican, asian, moroccan, etc. I find more varieties when I read things like romantic suspense, or paranormal. And back list historical romances had more varieties in settings and time period which made it more varied I think. Stuff from the 90's and such.

In the end I don't care. I just want the characters to be compelling and the setting and story to be interesting. 

But yeah, in reading for me its only dictated by the genres and sub genres I read. But I do want to know how someone looks. I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't need description down to nose hair, but hair color, skin color, eye color and other attributes are nice to get. I think that romance always does that anyway.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel Dennis said:


> I think this is what's wrong with the world today. You can't go a week without someone going on television and race-baiting. Often times those conversations paint the "default" people as bigots. Then you get people like me who are color-blind to the madness and try to weigh in to show people that not every white guy is a racist and the response is the above quote. Maybe I'm reading too deep into your meaning here but what I read was "your opinion doesn't matter because you're not a minority." If that's the case then you're part of the problem. I base my opinions about people on their actions. Not their skin color. In my view there isn't a default.


Let's go back to what you said:



> But is it possible that the negative interactions stand out but the positive ones don't because they're normal? Maybe. I don't know. But I don't think it's as common now as it was fifty years ago. It's not in my circles anyway


You (and I, as a white woman) have the privilege to be "colour blind" and not notice race. People of colour _do not have the privilege to forget race._ You, as a white male, are not expected of shoplifting when you walk into a store. You aren't subjected to stop-and-frisk based on racial profiling. If you commit a crime in the US, statistically you'll get less jail time than the Latina or Black who commits the exact same time.

So, yes, in your circles with your eyes looking at the situation, it isn't as common. However, others who live this life have said in this thread that they have a completely different experience because they live it. Just because you don't witness it and you don't live that life, doesn't invalidate the massive racial undercurrents that still exist in western society.

To give you an idea, there is a project called "This is Everyday Racism." Look at it and think about how many times you've heard those things said, or have said yourself not thinking. This is the face of racism today.

There are many others who can explain this better than I can and I'm sure they will.

http://thisiseverydayracism.tumblr.com/


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Just because you don't witness it and you don't live that life, doesn't invalidate the massive racial undercurrents that still exist in western society.


Just to clarify, your point isn't lost on me. I think I didn't express myself the way I intended to because the topic irks me for reasons I already outlined. What annoys me more is someone telling me that _my_ opinions are invalid for any reason especially when I'm not part of the problem. Yes, I'll never be able to fully understand what it's like. I've seen my share of discrimination but it isn't not the same. I get that. I just really don't like being spoken to like I'm part of an inherent racial problem when I've never done anything wrong.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Just to clarify, your point isn't lost on me. I think I didn't express myself the way I intended to because the topic irks me for reasons I already outlined. What annoys me more is someone telling me that _my_ opinions are invalid for any reason especially when I'm not part of the problem. Yes, I'll never be able to fully understand what it's like. I've seen my share of discrimination but it isn't not the same. I get that. I just really don't like being spoken to like I'm part of an inherent racial problem when I've never done anything wrong.


No one is personally blaming you; we are blaming the social constructs that have created the current mess. However, I do believe since we live with inherent social privilege that's hard for us to even tangibly understand without assistance, I'm of the opinion that we should do 5 parts listen, 3 parts questions, 1/2 part comment.

But again, this conversation has turned into two white people talking about race, which is typical of all racial discussions, as well as gender discussions when two men are telling the ladyfolk about what it's like to be women. Instead of useful discussion, this topic has now been reduced to one white person being upset because they are internalizing all of the comments to be about them personally, and another white person trying to hold their hand and walk them through it.

Do you see?

_Which is not how it's supposed to be. _


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Then you get people like me who are color-blind to the madness and try to weigh in to show people that not every white guy is a racist and the response is the above quote. Maybe I'm reading too deep into your meaning here but what I read was "your opinion doesn't matter because you're not a minority." If that's the case then you're part of the problem. I base my opinions about people on their actions. Not their skin color. In my view there isn't a default.


I've never known a person who's race-blind, but I've known people who thought they were. These people told me anecdotes to illustrate their color blindness. Their anecdotes demonstrated their sense of superiority, not their color blindness.

Maybe you are more self-aware than the other people I know. My experience of how people think of themselves makes me doubt it. But I don't know you in person, and you could very well be that unique person who has managed not to be affected by the news and media you have seen and heard since birth. I know I have to struggle to perceive people as individuals and not prejudge them by their skin color, accent, clothing, religion, and sex. I have to struggle when writing not to let lazy preconceptions affect how my characters act.

I personally don't like the word "racist" because it tends to shut down discussion and it doesn't cover the nuances of race awareness. A person may not wish harm to another person who looks or sounds or smells different, and still immediately notice when that other person walks into a room.

Re "your opinion doesn't matter because you're not a minority": Let's just say there's stuff happening that you might not see because of your perspective.

I should probably mention, for people who don't get the reference, that I'm using irony ("the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning") when I talk about other white folks embarrassing me. It's not really embarrassing to _me_ because I'm not lumped in with every white person. I have the privilege of being an individual whereas people from other groups are sometimes considered to be the representative of every other person who looks or talks sort of like them.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> But again, this conversation has turned into two white people talking about race, which is typical of all racial discussions, as well as gender discussions when two men are telling the ladyfolk about what it's like to be women. Instead of useful discussion, this topic has now been reduced to one white person being upset because they are internalizing all of the comments to be about them personally, and another white person trying to hold their hand and walk them through it.
> 
> Do you see?


Yeah, I see where you're coming from. My comments began as a way to help someone understand the context the viewpoint of someone like me in reference to the initial question: does race matter? Somewhere along the way it derailed and I do apologize for my part in that.


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> this conversation has turned into two white people talking about race


White 'splaining?


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Personally, I think everyone understands racism to a degree. Non minorities are subject to "reverse racism" which can be just as bad and hindering. I know some people that are scared to death of touching this subject for fear of being perceived as racist, which I dont think is cool. Discrimination and dehumanization in any form is uncool to me. But the only thing you can really do is laugh about it. Which is what me and my friends do.

Because when you think about it, its absurd. Is any intelligent individual really supposed to believe varying amounts of melanin in their skin makes them more or less of a person? Seriously? 

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## zandermarks (May 20, 2013)

I think one of the barriers that occurs is the reader's underlying fear that the "white guilt" buttons might be pushed. There's still a lot of mixed-up/not-really-resolved subconscious stuff under the hood, even among white readers who consider themselves nonracist and who genuinely hold nonracist views.

So part of the challenge is simply to convey the sense that the water's fine, there's nothing to be afraid of, this isn't about getting heavy with things, and we're going to mix it up and have a good time killing some zombies.

If you're afraid that your cover art may be turning away readers based on the white guilt fear, one option is to find ways to mix it up in the cover art. The protagonist remains the star because he is the star. But if he's working with a team, that can be conveyed as well, and that may have some effect on overcoming that specific fear.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> White 'splaining?


I white 'splained white 'splaining. I feel meta ATM.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

von19 said:


> Non minorities are subject to "reverse racism" which can be just as bad and hindering.


I recommend reading on this subject. Start with, "Why reverse racism isn't real" and go from there. http://feminspire.com/why-reverse-racism-isnt-real/ and then move on to this: http://www.policymic.com/articles/82223/this-comedian-brilliantly-destroys-the-myth-of-reverse-racism-in-less-than-3-minutes


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

zandermarks said:


> I think one of the barriers that occurs is the reader's underlying fear that the "white guilt" buttons might be pushed. There's still a lot of mixed-up/not-really-resolved subconscious stuff under the hood, even among white readers who consider themselves nonracist and who genuinely hold nonracist views.


This made me think of something. It's for the white writers here, so it's slightly off-topic. I recommend "Writing the Other" written by a black woman and a white woman. It's about honestly looking at why you're uncomfortable addressing race in your books, or writing a minority as a main character, etc. I consider it required reading.

http://www.writingtheother.com/


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Yeah, I see where you're coming from. My comments began as a way to help someone understand the context the viewpoint of someone like me in reference to the initial question: does race matter? Somewhere along the way it derailed and I do apologize for my part in that.


It happens. It's the internet, after all


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> this topic has now been reduced to one white person being upset because they are internalizing all of the comments to be about them personally, and another white person trying to hold their hand and walk them through it.


Not sure this is a bad thing. It's a white problem. Why should black people have the burden of fixing it?



Krista D. Ball said:


> gender discussions when two men are telling the ladyfolk about what it's like to be women.


Not quite the same thing.

Must say I'd love to hear men talking about sexism among themselves and using peer pressure to stop it instead of putting the burden on women only.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

syrimne13 said:


> Well, and this very thing has made me wonder about those "studies" that show that non-white characters don't sell as well. They've kind of designed the whole marketing system around them so they won't sell as well.


Maybe. I don't know how readers of romance novels think but I suspect a great many may be looking for someone they relate to. If this is true then unfortunately when you're eyes are browsing by the cover the physical appearance of the people on the cover is going to be the first thing to catch your eye. So along these lines my next question is about market share. If they've determined (using arbitrary numbers here) 20% of the romance market is minorities then I'd expect to see 20% of the novels reflect that. But again, I don't know. I assume there would also be fewer numbers on the shelves because of fewer authors. I'm sure the demographics in publishing aren't the same as nationwide/worldwide demographics but I'd think that because there are so many more white people out there that you'd see a greater number of whites publishing books.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> Not sure this is a bad thing. It's a white problem. Why should black people have the burden of fixing it?


Not saying that. I'd rather not be speaking for other people's perspective and situations. There are plenty of people on KB who can speak better on this topic than I ever could.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

syrimne13 said:


> Are there really "so many more" white people?
> 
> I'm sort of kidding but sort of not. And personally, I think marking something as "for these people" is going to limit market share, no matter how you spin it. *Can you imagine how the Alex Cross books would have sold (comparatively) if they'd been shelved under "black fiction"?*


I don't remember who brought it up earlier (I can't find it), but to add on...what if Alex Cross was also written by a black man?


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

[Dummyquote]According to Tim Wise, racial jokes and slurs toward white folks are less potent because whites hold institutional power over everyone else. This is true throughout history. And since people of color hold little sway in defining the terms of white existence, it's abundantly clear that racial slurs and jokes directed at whites are no more than that: slurs and jokes. They carry little weight, because there's no actual power behind them.[/dummyquote]

Okay, I can't agree with this, sorry Krista. I think they absolutely carry weight. Because I can't oppress my Caucasian neighbor to a severe degree its okay to say racist things to them? So, its okay to be racist but only if its directed at people lighter than me? I can't buy that. Its uhm... you know... weird?


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I don't remember who brought it up earlier (I can't find it), but to add on...what if Alex Cross was also written by a black man?


It's an interesting question. I remember seeing it in an earlier post too. Honestly, until I read this I wasn't aware of the race of the writer of the Alex Cross series. I never gave it a second thought when it was brought up earlier. Probably because I hadn't read the books. But I enjoyed the films (which I'm sure is a blasphemous couple of statements by themselves).


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Krista D. Ball said:


> This made me think of something. It's for the white writers here, so it's slightly off-topic. I recommend "Writing the Other" written by a black woman and a white woman. It's about honestly looking at why you're uncomfortable addressing race in your books, or writing a minority as a main character, etc. I consider it required reading.
> 
> http://www.writingtheother.com/


I write as someone whose debut novel is focused around the theme of state racist actions against Japanese Americans and Native Americans in Seattle. So I am not commenting as someone who has difficulty addressing racism as a main topic or writing characters who are different ethnicities to me, which is lucky as being white Irish/Scottish/Welsh that would be rather limiting.

Where I did have difficulty was in dealing exclusively with a community that suffered so much, which is why I broadened it out from a sole focus on Japanese American Internment. My London-based Japanese American friend was disappointed that I was not just writing exclusively about her community, but I explained that I felt that the suffering was so great that it really should be a Japanese American writing exclusively about it. At the time I had not read Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet: A Novel but I discovered that Jamie Ford did something similar writing about his own perspective (Chinese American) and weaving the internment story into a beautiful novel dealing with complex racisms (including Chinese vs Japanese) and inter-racial harmony (including the friendship between a Chinese American boy and an African American jazz player).


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel Dennis said:


> It's an interesting question. I remember seeing it in an earlier post too. Honestly, until I read this I wasn't aware of the race of the writer of the Alex Cross series. I never gave it a second thought when it was brought up earlier. Probably because I hadn't read the books. But I enjoyed the films (*which I'm sure is a blasphemous couple of statements by themselves*).


You're dead to me.


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## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

Here's the thing about conversations like this:  any time someone throws the words 'privilege' and 'racism' into a conversation, it devolves into an argument where the white person is defending themselves against accusations no one is actually making.  Somewhere along the line, people started thinking that privilege was a four letter word, and racism only had use as an insult or a judgment on a person's character.  In order for honest, open debates on this subject to occur, the kneejerk reactions have to be reigned in.

I'm a white man, as indicated by my avatar obviously.  My sister is Vietnamese, my brother Mexican.  Adopted at birth, all raised together by middle class white parents.  My brother has never been anything but my brother, my sister never anything but my sister.  Theoretically, I should be as race blind as they come, but the thing is, that phrase doesn't actually mean what most people who use it think it means.  My siblings' races don't matter to me, as in they don't affect my view of them as my siblings, equal to me in every possible way, but this is not to mean that their races don't MATTER, period.  Even growing up right next to me in white middle class suburbia, hell ESPECIALLY in that case, it shaped their lives in ways mine wasn't.  That can't be avoided, no matter where you grow up, and pretending otherwise is simply disingenuous.

When you say 'I don't see color, everyone looks the same to me' (paraphrasing), to you it sounds like you're saying race doesn't matter to you and everyone is your equal.  But the thing is, the unconscious implication in that sentiment is that in order to see everyone as equal to you, you have to be BLIND to their race.  You have to NOT see them as black.  You have to subconsciously subtract the element that makes them different from you, before you can see them as the same.

And that is all privilege is.  You, as a white man, have the privilege of not automatically reading that implication in that statement, because your life has never been impacted by a reverse scenario that demonstrated the same effect.  Its not an insult, or an accusation that you did something wrong.    You had nothing to do with being a white man anymore than someone else had something to do with being born a black man.  Privilege is simply a description of the way things are as a result of the societal constructs we've built over countless generations, and pretending it doesn't exist is simply willful stubbornness saying 'well this isn't part of my world view, and my world view is the one that matters.'

Similarly, the mere use of the word racism isn't an insult, because 90% of racism is unconscious.  That's what makes it so insidious and so pervasive.  Sure, there's blatant, over the top racism where people sling racial slurs around and deliberately discriminate, but that's usually what's not being talked about here.  Racism is any attitudes, beliefs, systems or acts that effectively stack the deck against one or more races in favor of another.  And a lot of these are so ingrained in our society that we don't even recognize them as racist until they're pointed out as such to us.....which then usually results in us having the knee jerk reaction of 'but I can't be racist, I'm not a bad person!'  See the trap?  You can engage or subscribe to racist behaviors or beliefs without being a bad person, because you were raised in a certain society and had no internal mechanism for recognizing them as such on your own.  You can do racist things without being a Racist, capital R, who genuinely believes that white people are better than black people, because it simply never occurred to you that they might be racist.  The trick of it is, what do you do once these behaviors or actions are pointed out to you?  Do you bury your head in the sand and insist that because you know yourself to be a good and enlightened person, that any viewpoint that possibly paints your actions in a negative light can't be valid?  Or do you accept, even just on a trial basis, that your life is as shaped by being a white man as a black man's life is shaped by being black, and in order to truly be equals with him, you might have to learn to see the differences between his life and yours instead of being deliberately blind to them? 

Privilege is not a judgment call on anyone who benefits from it.  Its not an admittance of white guilt, its not an apology for being racist, or anything remotely like any of that.  Its simply an awareness that your life has benefited from factors that other races are not privy to, and thus you have no frame of reference for experiencing life the way they have - meaning sometimes, in order to GET IT, you have to just shut up and listen.  

I have privilege.  Ultimately, that's just a disclaimer that I know my world view is not all encompassing, that there are experiences and viewpoints that have never and will never occur to me naturally, and thus, if I want to understand them, its on me to listen when others tell me they exist and what that means.

And yes, I just white 'splained like WHOA, but this is a kneejerk subject for me too, as for many a year I was that dude yelling 'I can't be privileged/racist/blah blah, cuz I have nonwhite siblings and plus I'm not even straight and HOW DARE YOU' before I finally got it.  Nobody was insulting me or calling my character into question, they were just trying to get me to understand that my default settings weren't relevant to someone else's life experiences.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

von19 said:


> [Dummyquote]According to Tim Wise, racial jokes and slurs toward white folks are less potent because whites hold institutional power over everyone else. This is true throughout history. And since people of color hold little sway in defining the terms of white existence, it's abundantly clear that racial slurs and jokes directed at whites are no more than that: slurs and jokes. They carry little weight, because there's no actual power behind them.[/dummyquote]
> 
> Okay, I can't agree with this, sorry Krista. I think they absolutely carry weight. Because I can't oppress my Caucasian neighbor to a severe degree its okay to say racist things to them? So, its okay to be racist but only if its directed at people lighter than me? I can't buy that. Its uhm... you know... weird?


I'm not sure if I 100% agree with his statement, either, but I agree with at least 75%. It also might because of where we live (I don't think we live in the same country?) and the context that I keep hearing the phrase. The phrase itself gets mixed in around here with the MRAs, too, so it is just this icky, icky thing.

I don't pay too much attention to it online, since meh, you've heard one moron on Deadspin, you've heard them all.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> And yes, I just white 'splained like WHOA


Yeah know, I white splained white 'splaing and I white splained racism to a POC because I hadn't had my latte and confused one person with another (sorry von *kissy things* I really did think you were someone else w/ the name of Vo--- that I've some issues w/).

I'm going to go have some caffeine.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

von19 said:


> [Dummyquote]According to Tim Wise, racial jokes and slurs toward white folks are less potent because whites hold institutional power over everyone else. This is true throughout history. And since people of color hold little sway in defining the terms of white existence, it's abundantly clear that racial slurs and jokes directed at whites are no more than that: slurs and jokes. They carry little weight, because there's no actual power behind them.[/dummyquote]
> 
> Okay, I can't agree with this, sorry Krista. I think they absolutely carry weight. Because I can't oppress my Caucasian neighbor to a severe degree its okay to say racist things to them? So, its okay to be racist but only if its directed at people lighter than me? I can't buy that. Its uhm... you know... weird?


Yes, it is weird, and dangerous. Less powerful perhaps, but still powerful.


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> Alex Cross gets the stamp of approval because he's written by a white guy.
> 
> I think there's a rule that there can only be one successful male POC and one successful female POC in a genre. It's sort of like the rule that the number of characters in a story can't be more than 25% female. (More than 25% and there's a perception those icky wimmens constitute the majority.)





Kalen ODonnell said:


> [...] 90% of racism is unconscious. That's what makes it so insidious and so pervasive.


Yes. It's not like one day people decide they're going to be evil: "I'm going to be a racist!" (Well, not in most cases.)


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> When you say 'I don't see color, everyone looks the same to me' (paraphrasing), to you it sounds like you're saying race doesn't matter to you and everyone is your equal. But the thing is, the unconscious implication in that sentiment is that in order to see everyone as equal to you, you have to be BLIND to their race. You have to NOT see them as black. You have to subconsciously subtract the element that makes them different from you, before you can see them as the same.


I think you're parsing words way too deep. I don't look at people and not see color. I see it as an identification marker not unlike hair color, height, weight, gender, etc. At the end of the day I just don't care. It doesn't matter. To me all that matters is whether or not you're a good person. Are you worth spending any time with? Can you be trusted? Would my kids and your kids enjoy playing outside together? Can we enjoy having a beer together? Do we work well together on projects in the office? To the POC on the side of this wall the answer is yes to all of the above and race doesn't seem to be an issue. That's not to say it hasn't ever affected a life experience. But with our interactions it just doesn't matter. In reading through your entire post it almost sounds like you're making the case (unless I misinterpreted your fifth paragraph) that subconsciously everyone is racist on some level whether they know it or not, which is absurd.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> You're dead to me.


I concur! We are writers here sir, we always read the book!
No... lol, sadly, I never even read the Harry Potter books but I saw the movies. They were just sooo huge...!



Kalen ODonnell said:


> When you say 'I don't see color, everyone looks the same to me' (paraphrasing), to you it sounds like you're saying race doesn't matter to you and everyone is your equal. But the thing is, the unconscious implication in that sentiment is that in order to see everyone as equal to you, you have to be BLIND to their race. You have to NOT see them as black. You have to subconsciously subtract the element that makes them different from you, before you can see them as the same.


Omg, this is so perfect in every way. if only I could email you a cookie. I never really bought the color blind thing either. I'd much prefer a friend who acknowledged my race and said thats fine, instead of saying they dont see it.

My friend Shale, however, is almost _too_ aware of my race lol. I hear so many God awful chicken jokes I never want to eat it again. The cool thing about having a friend who acknowledges you is that you can say some pretty borderline offensive things lol. He's dating the daughter of the guy who owns anheuser-busch so he never hears the end of it. The jokes practically write themselves.

Edit: I found a cookie.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

...chicken jokes? What does chicken have to do with race?


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> ...chicken jokes? What does chicken have to do with race?


Just... don't ask...

Being in Oklahoma, I've probably heard a great number of them also...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Huh. I won't ask then!


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Just... don't ask...
> 
> Being in Oklahoma, I've probably heard a great number of them also...


Lol 

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

von19 said:


> Lol
> 
> Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


I'm curious. Do the emoji show up on a phone or other platform? I'm never sure what they mean.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

On my tablet, I get an alien smiling at me...


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## Fishbowl Helmet (Jan 12, 2014)

I does matter to me. I consciously seek out non-white protagonists and have consciously written non-white protagonists.

EDIT: Sorry to be "that" guy, but it's "aloud" rather than "allowed" in that first few lines.

Also, your question is too vague to be useful. Depending on what you mean by "does race matter" the same answer could essentially mean opposite things. "Does race matter?" Yes, I won't read books with non-white protagonists. "Does race matter?" Yes, I want more non-white protagonists.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Monique said:


> I'm curious. Do the emoji show up on a phone or other platform? I'm never sure what they mean.


I downloaded the tapatalk app and it allows you to sign into KB. There's a little options menu with 'insert emoticon' that you can use to post them. Theres quite a bit of them.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Thanks. All I see on my computer is text, no little emoticon.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Fishbowl Helmet said:


> I does matter to me. I consciously seek out non-white protagonists and have consciously written non-white protagonists.


Someone posted on io9 (if I recall correctly) about how they sought out books with non-white characters on purpose because their daughter was going through a phase where she said reading was stupid because no one looked like her.

I remember there was this huge list of stuff everyone posted for this 12 or 13 year old, including comic books, graphic novels, and Ya books. Which was great, but almost none of them had a main character that was non-white. It was rather sad to see, really. It really did stick with me.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I don't remember who brought it up earlier (I can't find it), but to add on...what if Alex Cross was also written by a black man?


The books would not have sold nearly as well because the author would not have been James Patterson.

I have the same problem with my book.



> I'm curious. Do the emoji show up on a phone or other platform? I'm never sure what they mean.


iMac using Safari shows code.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

Do we have a breakdown on authors by race versus protagonists by race? Surely there is some similarity to racial breakdowns in general. People always say "write what you know". Theoretically that should cascade to a fairly similar curve to the general population's racial breakdown.

I will say that as a caucasian, I am a little nervous writing about non-white characters, because I want it to be true, and not a slur, and not disrespectful. But the truth is, a lot of my characters are kind of despicable. There's a definite bit of trepidation involved.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

jtbullet said:


> I will say that as a caucasian, I am a little nervous writing about non-white characters, because I want it to be true, and not a slur, and not disrespectful. But the truth is, a lot of my characters are kind of despicable. There's a definite bit of trepidation involved.


I mentioned it above, but it bears (bares? I never remember which) repeating. "Writing the Other" addresses these kinds of trepidations and I highly recommend it. *Highly* Pre-reading it, I was terrified to even included non-white people in my books because I didn't want to mess it up. Post-reading it, I made a main character a WOC for one of my series. Yes, I made mistakes. Yes, I'm trying to fix them as I learn and understand more. But I tried, and I wouldn't have without that book.


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## jimbro (Jan 10, 2014)

I actually like to see an ethnic/racial mix in stories I read. It sounds more natural to me. Also, as a writer I think it wise to appeal to every demographic and have something for everybody (within reason). It really doesn't matter if the Main Character is of a different race or gender than my own. However I will admit that if EVERY single character is different from me I might not like it as much. But even in this case I'll add the caveat that I've read books that take place entirely in the Ming Dynasty another that took place entirely within the Zulu world and loved both of them (even tho I am neither Chinese nor Zulu). So, for me, I guess a good story trumps everything.

That said, there will always be a few haters who expect every story to center around their own selves and ethnic group. But one look at your Author photo and they wouldn't have bought anyway. The haters are a vanishing breed anyway. The growing (we can argue over how fast or slow, but it is growing) demographic is the NON-haters.


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

jtbullet said:


> Do we have a breakdown on authors by race versus protagonists by race? Surely there is some similarity to racial breakdowns in general. People always say "write what you know". Theoretically that should cascade to a fairly similar curve to the general population's racial breakdown.
> 
> I will say that as a caucasian, I am a little nervous writing about non-white characters, because I want it to be true, and not a slur, and not disrespectful. But the truth is, a lot of my characters are kind of despicable. There's a definite bit of trepidation involved.


Truthfully, I'll probably always have my protagonist be black. Not sure why though. It's probably because of the concept that the protagonist is basically the writer in disguise.
I also think that part of is that it is my subconscious sees it as my contribution to "the struggle". It may be a little taboo to talk about it on this thread, but a lot of minority cultures expect you to be represent that culture if you "make it" or are among the minority of a given field.

"If there aren't that many black protagonists then why aren't you writing a black protagonist? If you don't, then who will?"


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

All I have to say is, I'm black, and I'm just waiting for the day some ignorant person asks me, "Well, you're black, so . . . how come your characters aren't black?"       

I'll make the race of my characters however I want to make them.    In all of the stories I've written since becoming a published author,  I've created black characters, white characters, Latina characters . . .

I do what I want, and I hate ignorance when it comes to race.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

von19 said:


> Because when you think about it, its absurd. Is any intelligent individual really supposed to believe varying amounts of melanin in their skin makes them more or less of a person? Seriously?


The melanin in my skin keeps the wrinkles away, and at my age, that's fine by me.  I wish I were even darker.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

jtbullet said:


> Do we have a breakdown on authors by race versus protagonists by race? Surely there is some similarity to racial breakdowns in general. People always say "write what you know". Theoretically that should cascade to a fairly similar curve to the general population's racial breakdown.
> 
> I will say that as a caucasian, I am a little nervous writing about non-white characters, because I want it to be true, and not a slur, and not disrespectful. But the truth is, a lot of my characters are kind of despicable. There's a definite bit of trepidation involved.


I've spent 95 percent of my life around Caucasians. So I know you folks better than I want to, sometimes.


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> All I have to say is, I'm black, and I'm just waiting for the day some ignorant person asks me, "Well, you're black, so . . . how come your characters aren't black.


Sellout! 

Just joking. That's great that you have that mindset. 
I'll have plenty of diversity in my other books. For example, there's a thriller/superhero book on my project list where 90% of the characters are not black, but the protagonist and his family is.
Nothing wrong with either approach. Just a preference thing.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Will C. Brown said:


> Truthfully, I'll probably always have my protagonist be black. Not sure why though. *It's probably because of the concept that the protagonist is basically the writer in disguise.*


I'd like to pretend this isn't true, but yeah, it probably is. Somewhere, there is an assassin inside me just waiting for the right contract... 



> I also think that part of is that it is my subconscious sees it as my contribution to "the struggle". It may be a little taboo to talk about it on this thread, but a lot of minority cultures expect you to be represent that culture if you "make it" or are among the minority of a given field.
> 
> "If there aren't that many black protagonists then why aren't you writing a black protagonist? If you don't, then who will?"


I think that's a fair comment, though and a good explanation of why you're doing what you're doing.


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## PanGalacticBlog (Apr 11, 2014)

I hope we have outlived race once and for all, but I suspect there are still people to whom this is a factor. I'm not one of them. Maybe one day I write a book from the perspective of a green alien put him/her on the cover then no one from the human race is offended!


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

Will C. Brown said:


> Sellout!
> 
> Just joking. That's great that you have that mindset.
> I'll have plenty of diversity in my other books. For example, there's a thriller/superhero book on my project list where 90% of the characters are not black, but the protagonist and his family is.
> Nothing wrong with either approach. Just a preference thing.


Ha Ha! 

But seriously, I've spent enough time around whites that it's no big deal for me to write about them. (I've been the only black girl in class more times than I care to admit.)

But I enjoy diversity. In one of my upcoming books, there's a major black character.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Thankfully, most people aren't offended by a green person on the cover. Brown, though...we still don't like brown.


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## zandermarks (May 20, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> This made me think of something. It's for the white writers here, so it's slightly off-topic. I recommend "Writing the Other" written by a black woman and a white woman. It's about honestly looking at why you're uncomfortable addressing race in your books, or writing a minority as a main character, etc. I consider it required reading.
> 
> http://www.writingtheother.com/


Thanks! I'll check that out!

I'll also toss in a recommendation of my own:

"Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?"
by Beverly Tatum

It's not about writing, but it very much addresses the "underlying stuff" in a very approachable and nuanced way.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks! I'll check that one out. I don't much about black American culture (not being either), so that could be an interesting read for me.


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

Another bi-racial person here 
I don't care about the character's ethnicity in a story, as long as it's a story I WANT to read.
By that I mean if I want to read a sci-fi, having a Black, White, Asian, etc heroine isn't going to matter to me.

That said, I LOATHE racial stories. 
Stories about a character's racial struggles, irritate me to no end. :/
You'll never find me in African-American or Asian or Hispanic culture isle of a book store, 
but if I read a book with a character of a different ethnicity then I'm pleasantly surprised. 

Edited to add: 
It may well be about identifying with the characters for most readers, 
and me because I really, really love biracial characters.


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## zandermarks (May 20, 2013)

Will C. Brown said:


> Truthfully, I'll probably always have my protagonist be black. Not sure why though. It's probably because of the concept that the protagonist is basically the writer in disguise.
> I also think that part of is that it is my subconscious sees it as my contribution to "the struggle". It may be a little taboo to talk about it on this thread, but a lot of minority cultures expect you to be represent that culture if you "make it" or are among the minority of a given field.
> 
> "If there aren't that many black protagonists then why aren't you writing a black protagonist? If you don't, then who will?"


White guy here with a Black protagonist, and oddly I think my own subconscious is coming from a similar place, albeit from a different direction...that the struggle is real, the pain is real, and that we possess the innate human capacity to overcome and that it is worth it.

All of which is subtext and in no way gets in the way of writing a fun, crazy story about ghosts. But the "porousness" with which my characters operate across the color line (without negating the unique experiences and perspectives of each character and indeed giving them room for their voices) is definitely coming from that place.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

I've never really cared if I can relate to a character, I actually prefer if I dont. Which is probably why I love first person so much, it gives you a unique view through another mindset. If I only read about characters I could physically or mentally relate to I wouldn't read at all lol. 

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Not a bit. When I first started reading Patterson's "Alex Cross" series, I got to the 5th novel, "Pop Goes the Weasel" before I realized Alex Cross was black. It suddenly added a different dimension, that I'd missed in the first ones. 

Several of my favorite characters in my own series are black, Hispanic and Middle Eastern, though the main character is white. They're military. Some, I haven't even gotten around to describing physically and they could be any race. When I served we never saw race in one another, just ability. I try to convey that in my characters.


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

Race doesn't matter a bit to me in a book. I'm more interested in the story and the characters (apart from appearance).

In Barry Hughart's brilliant fantasy _Bridge of Birds_, the main characters are Asian and I loved that book. 
In _Snow Crash_, the main character is Black and Japanese; loved it. 
_The Color Purple_ has a Black female as the MC; loved it. 
Aside from Deets and Blue Duck, _Lonesome Dove_ is populated almost entirely by Caucasian characters; loved it. 
The main characters in _The Godfather_ are Italian-American; loved it.
_Too Late the Phalarope_ (which is overshadowed by author Alan Paton's other book, _Cry the Beloved Country_) is told from the point of view of an older White female (although the narrator's nephew is the main character). Loved it.

In short, I don't look at a book thinking, "Am I going to be able to relate to the MC racially?" My thought is, "Does this sound like a good read?" There's nothing wrong with liking books where the main character looks like you (whether in terms of race, age, gender, what have you), but if you make that a dealbreaker you're going to miss out on a lot of great books.


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Only insomuch as I get really effin' tired of reading about white people all the time. Or, you know, if someone writes offensive stereotypes, that's not awesome.

That said, I agree with previous posters who said it matters to people, though you may have a hard time finding anyone who'll admit it to your face. (My extended family is so painfully racist that they refuse to admit they're not entirely white, so I have no doubt it turns some [icky] people off.)


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## Laura_Wingfield (Feb 6, 2014)

KVictoriaChase said:


> This is interesting. I read mostly Christian romance growing up and didn't at all find those characters un-relatable--and you know they were all Caucasian. They were just enjoyable stories. I was told by an agent who represents Christian romance that readers of that fiction don't want to see minority characters because they can't relate to them. The impression I got (without much elaboration beyond a well-written story with a black female protagonist just wasn't well-received) is that there is this vast chasm of difference between races. I wonder what these readers (and others) think they'll find when reading about minority characters? We all have the same human emotions and go through painful circumstances and/or conflicts that may or may not be similar. Not every black person is going to grow up in the ghetto, speak a dialect you can't grasp, enter another stereotype here, etc. And not everything is about racial struggle. And yes, both of those are general presumptions of why a person can't relate--no pitch forks, please, and I know I'm preaching to the choir. How soon we forget the Cosby Show.  At least the majority of my books have nothing to do with that; just two people solving crimes and coming together in love.


You know, I was thinking something kind of similar last year. One of my friends on an online Christian forum was writing a mystery romance and her protag was black. It was set in South Africa I think and was really interesting. I don't think she ever finished though. But I just thought . . . why haven't I seen any black leads since like . . . middle school? It seems like in between Roll of Thunder Hear My Cry and some short story at university about this black family being scammed by another black family that was it. 
I think you're totally right, the books are out there but they are being segregated. It's really sad. I lived for a short time in Japan and a few people I met there were all: I can't talk to a foreigner because they won't understand me. Me: But you speak English, why won't they understand you? Them: Because I have emotions, see, and foreigners just won't understand that. It's sad to see the same thing happening in the states.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

The main character of The 15th Star (Real Life History Mystery) is the real-life thirteen-year-old-girl, Grace Wisher, who was the African American indentured servant to Mary Pickersgill. She worked on the Star Spangled Banner.
The other hero and heroine fictional characters of The 15th Star are Keiko Zorben (100% Japanese), and Julian Lone Wolf (100% Cherokee Indian), so no, I do not blink at what race anyone is in my books.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

My next but one project will be about a father and daughter dealing with both external racism (they are Black Londoners) and internal homophobia (she is lesbian and he does not like the fact). I am a White Irish Londoner and the characters are black because I like to explore how different prejudices intersect in real (fictional) lives. 

One of my oldest plans (which may never get written) involves a black woman from Tottenham and a white woman from Muswell Hill (those are London suburbs/neighborhoods famous respectively for a football/soccer team and the world's first TV broadcast). So while I do not go out of my way to describe what characters look like and prefer covers that are not dominated by people, I have never worried about writing a character of another ethnic group. 

I don't chose to put white Irish characters into my plots, but added two to my soon to be published novel to avoid the "Why are you ignoring the Irish?" complaints.


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Does the race of the hero matter to your book?


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

Joliedupre said:


> (I've been the only black girl in class more times than I care to admit.)


I was once one of only 8 black students in a high school of 2000 students. Aside from that throughout all my school years I was either the only black person, or one of only two black students in all my classes.

Even now, in my career, I work in a huge department at a large university. The department itself consists of approximately 95 employees, yet I'm the only black full-time staff member. Other than that there are 1 or 2 black part-time student employees.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

PanGalacticBlog said:


> I hope we have outlived race once and for all, but I suspect there are still people to whom this is a factor. I'm not one of them. Maybe one day I write a book from the perspective of a green alien put him/her on the cover then no one from the human race is offended!


Didn't Dr. Seuss write a story with light green and dark green characters with an underlying racism problem?

I wrote my final sociology paper about the movie Alien Nation and the racism in it. I got an A.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Does the race of the hero matter to your book?


It's a significantly bigger issue than that, and this is a massive simplification. Books are notoriously non-representative of the population as a whole. So, no, that might not matter to the hero of your book, but that might matter to the little girl who wants to read about little girls that look like her. That might matter to little boys who want to see superheros look like him. That might matter to grown ups who are tired of never, ever, ever seeing themselves as the love interest, the hero, the villain, or anything else.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Fictionista said:


> I was once one of only 8 black students in a high school of 2000 students. Aside from that throughout all my school years I was either the only black person, or one of only two black students in all my classes.
> 
> Even now, in my career, I work in a huge department at a large university. The department itself consists of approximately 95 employees, yet I'm the only black full-time staff member. Other than that there are 1 or 2 black part-time student employees.


I can't help but wonder why this is? In a perfect world, the proportions in everything would be the same. Are these universities biased when it comes to race? Or is it an underlying and growing problem in the black community, where too many young people are less ambitious?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to judge a person by anything other than their character and ability. However, it seems there are more and more young people of all races who don't have both parents at home to teach and guide them and it seems it's becoming almost epidemic in the inner city black community.

White people tiptoe around race in discussions. Having served in the Marine Corps under some terrific black leaders and alongside many courageous black men, I've never been one to tiptoe. We always talked openly about the subject. But, on the news it's African-American this and African-American that, yet every black man or woman I ever knew refer to themselves as you do, black.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I can't help but wonder why this is?


I shall quote the great Neil deGrasse Tyson: http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/feministatheists/forum/topics/neil-degrasse-tyson-on-why-there-aren-t-more-women-in-science?commentId=2182797%3AComment%3A2410653&xg_source=activity&groupId=2182797%3AGroup%3A35268


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Additional information: On The Erasure of People Of Colour From Dystopian Fiction

http://battymamzelle.blogspot.ca/2014/04/On-The-Erasure-Of-People-Of-Colour-From-Dystopian-Fiction.html#.U1LAevldU3B


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

von19 said:


> I think only the older generations have problems with race. Different era and all that.


Uh, no. Try being a white teacher at a predominantly Mexican school and your eyes will be opened. Before that (recent) experience, I thought racism was dead, too. It looks quite different when you are in the minority.


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I can't help but wonder why this is? In a perfect world, the proportions in everything would be the same. Are these universities biased when it comes to race? Or is it an underlying and growing problem in the black community, where too many young people are less ambitious?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to judge a person by anything other than their character and ability. However, it seems there are more and more young people of all races who don't have both parents at home to teach and guide them and it seems it's becoming almost epidemic in the inner city black community.
> 
> White people tiptoe around race in discussions. Having served in the Marine Corps under some terrific black leaders and alongside many courageous black men, I've never been one to tiptoe. We always talked openly about the subject. But, on the news it's African-American this and African-American that, yet every black man or woman I ever knew refer to themselves as you do, black.


In response to your first question: I actually brought that up with my immediate boss and asked her why that in 2014, (in a department I've now worked in for 14 years) I am still the only black employee in a department of our size? I told her it didn't sit well with me, that out of all the jobs that come up--and there are plenty that come up--every new employee is white. The first thing she said to me was, "Honestly, I hadn't even noticed." To which I replied, it's easy not to notice when you're not in the minority. I asked, for that matter, where's the diversity as a whole? In fairness to her, she took my comments to heart and called a meeting with me, herself and our big boss (who also stated it never occurred to her either), and we discussed the matter. They told me that now that I've brought it to their attention, they're going to work on making it better. I told them not just blacks, but that it would be nice to see other ethnic groups represented in our department as well. But clearly, had I not brought the issue up, the department heads would have simply continued "not noticing".

The ironic thing is that our area alone has five black communities, one of them, (where I originate from) is the largest black community in all of Canada. So there's definitely something wrong with the bigger picture in the overall grand scheme of things if there are virtually no blacks other than myself represented in the department. There are plenty of qualified, well-educated black people in my area, and the surrounding black communities I mentioned earlier. I suggested to my bosses that they be more pro-active and post job postings for jobs that come up in our department and the university in general, on the community centre boards within the black communities. That would at least be a small step.

That said, there are blacks and other ethnic groups working in different areas of the university, but in our particular department, one of the largest at the school, there's absolutely no excuse for a lack of ethnic diversity on this level.

Regarding the term "African American" or "African Canadian", I actually prefer "black". My guess is that the terms AA and AC mostly came about due to the rise in political correctness over the years. Not that there was ever anything wrong with being called black to begin with, since that is what I, "we" are. Many black people embrace the terms African American, African Canadian, yet there are those like myself who prefer being called black. And most of the black people I know prefer it too. I thing personal preference varies to the point where people get confused (and understandably so) as to which term we prefer.

As long as no one calls me "coloured", we're good to go.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I can't help but wonder why this is? In a perfect world, the proportions in everything would be the same. Are these universities biased when it comes to race? Or is it an underlying and growing problem in the black community, where too many young people are less ambitious?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to judge a person by anything other than their character and ability. However, it seems there are more and more young people of all races who don't have both parents at home to teach and guide them and it seems it's becoming almost epidemic in the inner city black community.
> 
> White people tiptoe around race in discussions. Having served in the Marine Corps under some terrific black leaders and alongside many courageous black men, I've never been one to tiptoe. We always talked openly about the subject. But, on the news it's African-American this and African-American that, yet every black man or woman I ever knew refer to themselves as you do, black.


Everyone I know prefers to be called black. Saying African-American is a mouth full lol. But yeah, its pretty much everything you've said. I've noticed that unless its sports or music a lot of people are reluctant to pursue an education. I'd say a whopping 90% of people I went to school with only had a mom at home, or worse, no parent.

There are exceptions, some go to the military because they see it as their only way out, or pursue nursing (though that's mostly girls).

A lot of people cry and moan about the media portraying the black community in a negative light. But in all actuality, the black community isnt very positive. For instance, its been relatively cold in Chicago, this past weekend we had a break in the weather. On Friday and Saturday 40+ people were shot. Thats about one person every hour, in just two days!

There are positives and other elements in this vicious circle that I'm neglecting to mention but I'll just say it all traces back to money.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2014)

Fictionista said:


> I was once one of only 8 black students in a high school of 2000 students. Aside from that throughout all my school years I was either the only black person, or one of only two black students in all my classes.
> 
> Even now, in my career, I work in a huge department at a large university. The department itself consists of approximately 95 employees, yet I'm the only black full-time staff member. Other than that there are 1 or 2 black part-time student employees.


Sherilyn, you can relate!


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2014)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> White people tiptoe around race in discussions. Having served in the Marine Corps under some terrific black leaders and alongside many courageous black men, I've never been one to tiptoe. We always talked openly about the subject. But, on the news it's African-American this and African-American that, yet every black man or woman I ever knew refer to themselves as you do, black.


Sometimes I refer to myself as African-American and sometimes I refer to myself as black. I don't have a problem with the word black. Why should I?


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2014)

von19 said:


> Everyone I know prefers to be called black. Saying African-American is a mouth full lol. But yeah, its pretty much everything you've said. I've noticed that unless its sports or music a lot of people are reluctant to pursue an education. I'd say a whopping 90% of people I went to school with only had a mom at home, or worse, no parent.
> 
> There are exceptions, some go to the military because they see it as their only way out, or pursue nursing (though that's mostly girls).
> 
> ...


I was fortunate enough to grow up in a highly educated household of financial means. Many other blacks are not so fortunate.

Having said that, the last thing I put up with are people trying to put this black person in a box. I'm an individual. Don't try to analyze me like I'm some sort of science project. (Not saying you're doing that. Just saying.)


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> I was fortunate enough to grow up in a highly educated household of financial means. Many other blacks are not so fortunate.


Same. It's pretty saddening to watch your friends settle for a subpar lifestyle instead of broadening their horizons.


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## LanelleH (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't think people realize the market they can tap into if they create a realistic black hero.  In my opinion that's what people nowadays are craving, why do you think TV shows like Scandal are so popular?  Yes because of the great story lines but also because the main character is black woman who isn't the stereotypical "loud sassy best friend" media loves to depict us as.  I say there's a market only due to my personal experience as a middle school bookworm.  

Back then I read tons of books, especially young adult.  In the YA genre most of the books I read had a white main character.  Most.  And when they didn't the theme of book was more then likely about the character's racial experience.  When I'd find a book with a diverse main character that wasn't focused on race I practically clawed at the chance of reading it.  I bet a million dollars I wasn't the only 12, 13, 14 year old girl who felt that way and I'm not.  That sort of inspired me to write my own story with a black MC, I posted it online and it has gotten thousands of views and even though I no longer update it I still get people asking for more chapters.  The main character of my current young adult is black, it has nothing to do with her race.  She's flawed, yes, but not a stereotype and I think that's what people are looking for.


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## I Give Up (Jan 27, 2014)

Barbie Hall said:


> I don't think people realize the market they can tap into if they create a realistic black hero. In my opinion that's what people nowadays are craving, why do you think TV shows like Scandal are so popular? Yes because of the great story lines but also because the main character is black woman who isn't the stereotypical "loud sassy best friend" the media loves to depict us as. I say there's a market only due to my personal experience as a middle school bookworm.


Agreed. Kerry Washington's character on Scandal is an excellent example of this. I got emotional when I watched the first episode. _YES! There's a black woman on television who is strong, intelligent, and isn't the sassy sidekick! _I am just so in love with that woman.

My mother was too embarrassed to admit my father was black, which made things all the more difficult growing up in the rural south where, at least where I hailed from, the N word was synonymous with AA. When I was a child, I wished I was white like the rest of my family, and it was easily the most stressful element of my childhood (and I lived without electricity!)

As an adult, I am very proud of being half-black, and I happily check off "Other" when I'm filling out paperwork that asks for my race. It was a long time coming though. It wasn't until I was in high school that I felt comfortable in my own skin, and regardless of what anyone thinks of the president, I was sobbing through his inauguration speech. I was more proud of that moment than when I published my first book!

Racism isn't as overt as it was in say, the 60's, but it's still rather insidious. Being biracial, my white friends often think that I won't be offended when they make a brazenly racist statement. PSA: Anything that starts with "I'm not racist, but..." is going to piss me off and make you sound racist.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Here's the thing about conversations like this: any time someone throws the words 'privilege' and 'racism' into a conversation, it devolves into an argument where the white person is defending themselves against accusations no one is actually making. Somewhere along the line, people started thinking that privilege was a four letter word, and racism only had use as an insult or a judgment on a person's character. In order for honest, open debates on this subject to occur, the kneejerk reactions have to be reigned in.
> 
> I'm a white man, as indicated by my avatar obviously. My sister is Vietnamese, my brother Mexican. Adopted at birth, all raised together by middle class white parents. My brother has never been anything but my brother, my sister never anything but my sister. Theoretically, I should be as race blind as they come, but the thing is, that phrase doesn't actually mean what most people who use it think it means. My siblings' races don't matter to me, as in they don't affect my view of them as my siblings, equal to me in every possible way, but this is not to mean that their races don't MATTER, period. Even growing up right next to me in white middle class suburbia, hell ESPECIALLY in that case, it shaped their lives in ways mine wasn't. That can't be avoided, no matter where you grow up, and pretending otherwise is simply disingenuous.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this, Kalen.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Uh, no. Try being a white teacher at a predominantly Mexican school and your eyes will be opened. Before that (recent) experience, I thought racism was dead, too. It looks quite different when you are in the minority.


My teachers were white and taught at a 99.9% black school and loved it. Honestly, people in your position are either going to absolutely love it, or hate it. There is no middle ground.

If you lack the capacity to go through hell and back everyday you wont survive. They will eat you alive. But, if you can, and you do, it'll be a lot easier. Once you demonstrate that, and show them you care, *REALLY* care, you'll love it.

I've had teachers skip their anniversaries to be with us, moved to tears when we gave them "thanks for putting up with our b.s." presents, and do some crazy stuff I probably cant mention. But your kids are not racist, I promise.

A lot of them have it tough at home, so they have to be tougher. You'll hear racial slurs, have to quell riots, maybe even have to beat some sense into them. But their anger doesn't come from a hateful or malicious place (even though it 100% seems like it), so its not racism. Its a front.

Once they know you wont back down and can dish out what they throw out they'll settle down. Then you have to show them you care. And from there, you'll win them over. They will love you more than life. They'll absorb whatever you teach. If you have a crazy ex-boyfriend who stalks you, they'll put an end to it (long story), I'm pretty sure they'll jump in front of a bullet for you.

But my teachers were former military or just plain scary or awesome so they never had a problem they couldn't fix.

Honestly, a teacher shouldn't have to go through so much. But its worth it, at least, according to them (you couldn't pay me enough lol). If you can survive teaching in that environment you can survive anything. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the women and men who taught me, and if they called me today and said they had a problem only I could fix, I would be on the first scud missile to their doorstep.

Its that simple.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Barbie Hall said:


> I don't think people realize the market they can tap into if they create a realistic black hero. In my opinion that's what people nowadays are craving, why do you think TV shows like Scandal are so popular? Yes because of the great story lines but also because the main character is black woman who isn't the stereotypical "loud sassy best friend" media loves to depict us as. I say there's a market only due to my personal experience as a middle school bookworm.


Working on it.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Funny, but very true story.

I took classes at Carolina Coastal College when I was still in the Corps. I met a guy and we became friends. He talked kinda funny, but being from the south I think everyone talks funny. He told me he was born in Johannesburg, South Africa, but his parents moved to the US when he was just 3. He explained that his parents had a lot more distinct British accent than he did.

Three weeks into the semester, he was called to the Registrar's office. He'd received several tuition grants that he was told he'd have to pay back for lying on his admissions forms. On every one, he'd checked the box "African-American". He was white, very white in fact. They accused him of fraud, even after he explained he had dual citizenship, which was the box directly below "Race".


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

syrimne13 said:


> In sort of an interesting coincidence, this popped up on my feed today: http://www.buzzfeed.com/danieljoseolder/diversity-is-not-enough
> 
> For whatever it's worth, I've had numerous long-time pro/trad writers tell me that traditional publishing houses are notoriously racist. The ways in which this manifests are myriad, but examples I got fit some of the ones outlined in this article.
> 
> ...


Someone up thread posted this link as well. I tried to add a comment explaining that self publishing is now free, with links and everything, but I don't see my comment on the page.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2014)

Viola Rivard said:


> Agreed. Kerry Washington's character on Scandal is an excellent example of this. I got emotional when I watched the first episode. _YES! There's a black woman on television who is strong, intelligent, and isn't the sassy sidekick! _I am just so in love with that woman.
> 
> My mother was too embarrassed to admit my father was black, which made things all the more difficult growing up in the rural south where, at least where I hailed from, the N word was synonymous with AA. When I was a child, I wished I was white like the rest of my family, and it was easily the most stressful element of my childhood (and I lived without electricity!)
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your story, Viola.  I can understand why accepting all of your heritage, and not just part of it, was difficult for you. My kids are biracial, as well. However, they've grown up with a strong, self-assured black mother, who doesn't think of herself as a victim, and a white father who isn't a racist.

Racists have power over a person-of-color's psyche only if that person-of-color allows it.

As far as black people - strong, confident black people know there's nothing inferior about black skin. (In some other countries you'll find skin-whitening commercials, which I always find amusing. Of course, we're too PC for that in the US.)

~~~

As far as I'm concerned, racists can think whatever they want to think. I live in a free country. If a racist says something racist to me, I'll address it. Other than that, I just let him or her think whatever they want, especially since I know the truth. 

And racists are not just the southern white racists that immediately come to mind for so many. I've found some of the bleeding hearts I've run into just as racist because they feel the need to patronize and pat blacks on our heads. As former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice wrote, "I would rather be ignored than patronized."


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

von19 said:


> My teachers were white and taught at a 99.9% black school and loved it. Honestly, people in your position are either going to absolutely love it, or hate it. There is no middle ground.
> 
> If you lack the capacity to go through hell and back everyday you wont survive. They will eat you alive. But, if you can, and you do, it'll be a lot easier. Once you demonstrate that, and show them you care, *REALLY* care, you'll love it.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that, Von.

I wanted to stick it out, but I was let go after one school year. The next year, budget cuts made them let four more teachers go, so two years was the longest I could have been there, anyway.

That was grade 7-8 remedial reading in the 2008/2009 school year, so half of those 'kids' are for sure out of school now, and the other half will hopefully graduate come this June. I do care about them and hope they all graduate. Sadly, I know that won't be the case.

It was hell on Earth in the beginning. Some of the kids came around during the year, but the bittersweet truth is that the toughest of them didn't come around until they found out I wouldn't be back the next year and we only had a few days of honest harmony together.

I've moved to another state 1,000 miles away since then, so going to visit their high school is out of the question. I do wonder how they are doing, and wish them all the best. In one of the biggest Small World moments of my life, I discovered when I started substitute teaching at the high school here that one of the para educators here is the aunt of one of my students from there! She says he is in big trouble, and it makes me sad. She also says he had nothing negative to say about me, so there is that.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

LBrent said:


> Didn't Dr. Seuss write a story with light green and dark green characters with an underlying racism problem?


Even worse in his earlier career as a political cartoonist, Dr Seuss produced a yellow peril cartoon that depicted all Japanese Americans as working for the enemy. He cannot personally be blamed for 110000 Japanese Americans being sent to concentration camps, but it was difficult for me as someone with strong Japanese American connections to begin my kboards life being told that I was Dr Seuss. That is why I posted so often at first; to get rid of that racist slur and become Madeline L'Engle.


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## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

Another black chick who prefers black. I feel it's more inclusive and powerful - I share a heritage with people throughout the diaspora, not just with African-Americans.

In addition to expanding marketshare, I think adding diversity to one's stable of characters expands the opportunity for conflict/drama. As writer's we often struggle with finding fresh perspectives, so why not make your next character a different ethnicity than you? A different class? A different religion? Someone with a different set of physical, mental, or emotional challenges?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Yeah, 'black' is better. 'African American' sounds like a species name.

Also, I HATE 'POC/People of Color'. I get the spirit behind it in including everyone, but 1) 'pink' is also a color, 2) people 'having no color' is a biblical _insult_ and (most importantly) 3) IT'S JUST 'COLORED PEOPLE' FLIPPED AROUND. I'm tempted to believe it was concocted by racists to sabotage the SJ movement. And no, NAACP doens't count. It was founded in another time.


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## glc3 (Jun 24, 2009)

No I wouldn't change a thing as many readers have also identified with the MC. As we have seen with incidents following the release of the first Hunger Games movie readers have their own ideas of what a character looks like even when an author states their race.



winifredburton said:


> My what an interesting thread.
> 
> The race of the hero/heroine doesn't matter to me personally because if it did, my options as a young black girl would have been fairly limited, particularly in speculative fiction where my life as a reader began. I agree with Viola and others that you're not going to find as many people willing to admit that they're turned off by the ethnic background of a character, but they're out there. I don't understand that. I have not experienced life as a dragon rider, a demon hundreds of years old, the brightest witch of my age, or even an old bitter man bent on destroying two families for his revenge and unrequited love, and yet,
> those are some of my favorite characters. Also if someone thinks another human ethnic group is less relatable (because they're a different ethnicity) than say a werewolf, an alien, or any other category of experience they don't personally have? Yeah, racist.
> ...


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## glc3 (Jun 24, 2009)

I didn't hit them over the head with the MC's race. It's mentioned almost in passing when discussing where the character is from. There is a drawing of the character also in the book but I don't think one could tell what race the MC is without that.



vmblack said:


> For the OP: How do readers know what race the MC is? I didn't notice. Of course, I couldn't get through the Look Inside excerpt, but nothing clued me into the characters' race in what I did read.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


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## glc3 (Jun 24, 2009)

I had the same issue with putting the hero on the cover. while I decided not to do it there is a drawing of him inside.



jtbullet said:


> My series is about superheroes. I am white, but the leader of the main group is AA. The group splinters, and he goes on to lead one team, a woman another, and a washed up rock star, the third.
> 
> I dont mind writing it, and I dont mind reading it. Character trumps all (as in a person's character, not the idea of character versus plot). I have wrestled with the idea of having him on the cover, though...I don't want to be misleading, as he is only slightly more of the MC than the other two. I am hoping to show all three, but that gets busy.
> 
> I don't think that's what limits your sales. Like it has been said, the marketplace is crowded, and the answer seems to be diversification of story offerings, as well as increasing the number of titles that are series. I will be grabbing your book soon, I love zombies of all styles.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> As writer's we often struggle with finding fresh perspectives, so why not make your next character a different ethnicity than you? A different class? A different religion? Someone with a different set of physical, mental, or emotional challenges?


Because I judge the probability of success will be higher if I don't. Same reason I don't write a romance. Im not that talented. I stick with my limited comparative competitive advantages in terms of plots, characters, genre, adverbs, etc.


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## glc3 (Jun 24, 2009)

No, it doesn't. There are several characters of all races in the book. The MC just happens to be black. His speech and actions would not give that away though. [

quote author=S. Elliot Brandis link=topic=183798.msg2592444#msg2592444 date=1397911581]
Does the race of the hero matter to your book?
[/quote]


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## micki (Oct 8, 2010)

I wrote the novel Grace the Maid, set in South Africa. Grace is the MC and I have a film producer interested in making it into a movie. Okay my sales aren't great simply because I suck at marketing....... but I thoroughly enjoyed writing about Grace because she is very similar to my maid that brought up my children. So as to the main question... Does the race of the hero in a book matter...... I honestly don't think so.


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It's a significantly bigger issue than that, and this is a massive simplification. Books are notoriously non-representative of the population as a whole. So, no, that might not matter to the hero of your book, but that might matter to the little girl who wants to read about little girls that look like her. That might matter to little boys who want to see superheros look like him. That might matter to grown ups who are tired of never, ever, ever seeing themselves as the love interest, the hero, the villain, or anything else.


Oh definitely. I agree fiction in general needs more diversity. I write science fiction, and this is especially the case.

I do think it works best when it isn't made into a 'thing'. e.g. it doesn't really matter that a character is black, or gay, or whatever -- it's just how they are.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Also, I HATE 'POC/People of Color'. I get the spirit behind it in including everyone, but 1) 'pink' is also a color, 2) people 'having no color' is a biblical _insult_ and (most importantly) 3) IT'S JUST 'COLORED PEOPLE' FLIPPED AROUND. I'm tempted to believe it was concocted by racists to sabotage the SJ movement. And no, NAACP doens't count. It was founded in another time.


I agree, but I've been told that I'm not allowed to have any say in the matter. Which is very fair. So I'm just gonna try my best muddling along 

ETA: The last point - it was concocted by a black American feminist, though I forget her name ATM. She is a professor at a US college and came up with the term. However, some people believe the term only applies to black and very dark skin. Others believe it applies to everyone non-white. Still others people it applies to everyone non-white and non-Asian.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

For me, I prefer the hero be handsome. That's my bias. I don't care what color he is, but he needs to be good looking. Not model good looking--rugged is good, but I don't want a small, wimpy looking guy. So, I am biased. I just saw Captain America: The Winter Soldier for the second time because my dd is a huge fan. She loves Bucky, but I think The Falcon is the hot one. I could totally picture him as a hero in a book.  Also, I was stoked to see that Michael B. Jordan, from Friday Night Lights and The Wire, was chosen to be the Human Torch in the Fantastic Four. (although I feel really guilty because he's so young! ) ).


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I remember a very heavy television advertising campaign in the 1960s. The slogan was "Black is beautiful." I was too young to figure out who paid for that campaign.


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## Alexis Carrington (Apr 20, 2014)

A quick note, black is a racial category, while African-American is an ethnicity, specifically used to describe the ethnicity of those of the African diaspora who were brought over to the United States as slaves, and their present day descendants in the US.  Think of it like Irish-American and white. Not every white person in the world is Irish-American.  But I constantly see people try to use the term African-American, when I'm pretty sure they just mean black.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2014)

glc3 said:


> Does the race of the hero in a book matter to you?
> 
> Recently a friend and I were talking and he wondered allowed if the fact that our books feature black protagonist might be limiting our sales. I don't believe so but I was wondering what others think.
> 
> Read more here: http://www.thedeadwarseries.com/2014/04/does-race-of-hero-in-book-matter-to-you.html


To me? No. But as far as the reading public...it's hard to say. Publicly, many people will say they don't care, but look on their book shelf. How many of their books are written by authors of a different skin color? Even if it's only on a subconscious level people may gravitate toward the familiar.
That said, I think you should write your hero as you see him/her. If your character is a half-black, half-spanish, mormon, with long blond hair, who grew up in Tibet, then that's how you should write it. It will feel genuine and allow your writing to flow.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Publicly, many people will say they don't care, but look on their book shelf. How many of their books are written by authors of a different skin color? Even if it's only on a subconscious level people may gravitate toward the familiar.


How do consumers know author color? We can research it, but that survey of bookshelf population by author color has to consider how many people take the time to research for color. The Amazon book page doesn't show author color. If a consumer neglects the opportunity to research color, what does their bookshelf tell us about their subconscious?

Its hard to subconsciously gravitate without information to guide the subconscious.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

"The hero's race doesn't matter to me," They said, secure in the fact that 80% for heroes are going to be white anyway. It wasn't even on a conscious level.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Funny, but very true story.
> 
> I took classes at Carolina Coastal College when I was still in the Corps. I met a guy and we became friends. He talked kinda funny, but being from the south I think everyone talks funny. He told me he was born in Johannesburg, South Africa, but his parents moved to the US when he was just 3. He explained that his parents had a lot more distinct British accent than he did.
> 
> Three weeks into the semester, he was called to the Registrar's office. He'd received several tuition grants that he was told he'd have to pay back for lying on his admissions forms. On every one, he'd checked the box "African-American". He was white, very white in fact. They accused him of fraud, even after he explained he had dual citizenship, which was the box directly below "Race".


Sorry, but this cracked me up.

My daughters love and repeatedly watch a movie named Mean Girls. The main character is a Caucasian girl raised in South Africa who has just moved back to the U.S.
and is included in the group of popular girls. It's not a movie about race.

When she's being introduced to the class by her teacher, "Welcome our new student from Africa", the kids turn to a black student and welcome her. The black girl looks confused and says she's from their town.

Everyone looks confused until the Caucasian girl stands up. She's played by Lindsay Lohan.

Later, in the cafeteria, the popular girls (the Mean Girls from the title) are getting to know her and one girl asks if the new girl is from Africa why is she white.

The other girls are scandalized by her question, "OMG, you can't go around asking people why they're white!"

It's a hilariously stupid scene.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> "The hero's race doesn't matter to me," They said, secure in the fact that 80% for heroes are going to be white anyway. It wasn't even on a conscious level.


And straight.


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

> "The hero's race doesn't matter to me," They said, secure in the fact that 80% for heroes are going to be white anyway. It wasn't even on a conscious level.





> And straight.


And probably taller than 5'1".


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

And probably right handed.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2014)

Terrence OBrien said:


> How do consumers know author color? We can research it, but that survey of bookshelf population by author color has to consider how many people take the time to research for color. The Amazon book page doesn't show author color. If a consumer neglects the opportunity to research color, what does their bookshelf tell us about their subconscious?
> 
> Its hard to subconsciously gravitate without information to guide the subconscious.


How would someone know? Beats me. I suppose they flip through the pages and see a picture. (Come to think of it, probably not as big an issue with e-books). And like I said, it may only be on a subconscious level. But then it may be something else entirely. I don't claim to be an expert in sociology. I do know that people tend to gravitate toward the familiar. But I also think this is a minor barrier even if what I said was correct. Nothing so bad as to change the way you write.


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> I HATE 'POC/People of Color'. I get the spirit behind it in including everyone, but [...] IT'S JUST 'COLORED PEOPLE' FLIPPED AROUND.


What's a better term -- "non-white"?

"POC" takes the focus off white people, and "non-white" makes whiteness the focus.

I'm curious to hear what other people think, too. It would be amazing if there was a consensus on Kboards, but today's supposed to be a day of miracles. 



Joliedupre said:


> I'll make the race of my characters however I want to make them.


Millenia Black filed a lawsuit against her publisher because they changed the race of her characters from white to black.

Here's the text of Black's complaint:
http://bestsellingauthor.blogspot.com/2007/01/millenia-blacks-complaint.html

The resolution of the lawsuit:
http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/05/13/millenia-blacks-suit-against-penguin-has-been-resolved-to-her-satisfaction/

And a comment regarding the resolution:
http://dearauthor.com/features/industry-news/millenia-black-settles-lawsuit-with-penguin-over-race/


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

It matters to enough people to affect book sales. It also affects movie ticket sales. 

A black or Latino Harry Potter would probably not have taken the word by storm the way he did, especially if there were a black or Latino character pictured on the cover. Some people say Katniss Everdeen was supposed to be black, or at least not Jennifer-Lawrence-white. Put a dark-skinned Katniss on the cover, and I doubt it would have been the phenomenon it was. Alex Cross didn't appear on a cover, either. I'll bet many of the people reading pictured him as white once they were into the books, just as they did with Katniss, at least part of the time, forgetting. 

I want the day to come when a black Harry Potter can become as hugely popular as a white one, but we are far away from that day. Pretending otherwise only sets us back and ensures that day is much further off.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

On the subject of POC and WOC:

http://shine.forharriet.com/2014/04/activist-loretta-ross-explains-origin.html

Loretta Ross, an activist and PhD candidate, explains the origin of these terms.

/tangent


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

> "The hero's race doesn't matter to me," They said, secure in the fact that 80% for heroes are going to be white anyway. It wasn't even on a conscious level.





> And straight.





> And probably taller than 5'1".





> And probably right handed.


And has six-pack abs.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

brendajcarlton said:


> And probably taller than 5'1".


Hilarious. Really.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

brendajcarlton said:


> And probably taller than 5'1".


There's a Jack Reacher/Tom Cruise joke in there somewhere.


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

> Hilarious. Really.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

SevenDays said:


> There's a Jack Reacher/Tom Cruise joke in there somewhere.


Surely you mean Gary Coleman.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> "The hero's race doesn't matter to me," They said, secure in the fact that 80% for heroes are going to be white anyway. It wasn't even on a conscious level.


If 20% are nonwhite, and they are writing about nonwhites, then whats the problem? That would make a huge number of books with a diverse cast of characters available. And with Amazon KDP, there is no barrier to entry. After reading the thread, I suspect there is market opportunity for authors who can cater to the consumer segment that wants diverse characters.



> How would someone know? Beats me. I suppose they flip through the pages and see a picture. (Come to think of it, probably not as big an issue with e-books). And like I said, it may only be on a subconscious level.


They can't make a subconscious decision about color if they don't know the color.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2014)

One great thing about fantasy is that skin tone doesn't often matter as much. In my series elves are as diverse as humans (even more so) ranging from extremely dark to ivory. And another race I call the first born has ebony skin and silver hair. 
I have in fact, on many occasions been accused of writing strong anti-racism overtones into my books-  and I may have. But it wasn't intentional. I guess it's an example of our personal feelings bleeding out into our writing.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2014)

Terrence OBrien said:


> They can't make a subconscious decision about color if they don't know the color.


True enough. It would be interesting to see an experiment where a black author put of a photo of a white person and see how people would choose.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

BrianDAnderson said:


> True enough. It would be interesting to see an experiment where a black author put of a photo of a white person and see how people would choose.


Im ready to put one of your ebony skin and silver hair pics on my book if it will help. Pointy ears? No problem.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2014)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Im ready to put one of your ebony skin and silver hair pics on my book if it will help. Pointy ears? No problem.


Well, with any luck the aliens will come, and then racial bias will end. Why? Because the human race will all hate green people.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Only time I would know how the author looks like is from avatars here on KB and big names like King, Mary Balogh, etc. King mostly because I used to subscribe to his club in Germany and it came with material. 

Its not something I have ever looked at to pick a book. My first selection point is genre and then opinions of other readers of that genre. If someone writes in the genre/subgenre I read and the blurb sounds interesting and I can see some reviews or recommendations, I'll read it. I don't know in the majority of cases what the author looks like. And I only know now because of ebooks and authors posting and blogging and twittering and yakking all over the place.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

"It's totally okay to reduce entire races of people to a niche." They said, happy to not be a niche themselves.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> "It's totally okay to reduce entire races of people to a niche." They said, happy to not be a niche themselves.


Markets are divided up by niche all the time. Genre is a niche. So us subgenre. YA, women's, men's adventure, LGBT, children's? Niche arises when specific consumer demand is sufficiently concentrated to warrant producers catering to it.

We all fall into a variety of niches. Membership in one niche does not preclude membership in another. Niches intersect. Niche means the market is responding to demand.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2014)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> Millenia Black filed a lawsuit against her publisher because they changed the race of her characters from white to black.


Interesting.

It's great that I'm the publisher of my books.


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