# Me and Cousin 'IT'



## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

On the many subjects that tend to irk me to end is whenever some sprinkles just a little too much of 'IT.' I am not sure what is in 'IT' that makes people feel extremely special, but let me tell you something, I find 'IT' horribly annoying if I find this indefinite pronoun without knowing exactly what the author is referring to. In this post, I was trying to be somewhat humorous with the title, especially upon the reference to the hairy monster from the Adam's Family a.k.a. cousin 'IT.'

Yes, in some ways I think 'IT' is a cute creature, especially when it scurries around in the Adam's family mansion squeaking here and there over certain things. I can tell you sometimes you are left wondering what exactly he is talking about. I can express the same feelings toward authors who pepper their manuscripts with the pronoun expecting everyone to understand what he or she talks about in the manuscript. For most cases, I rarely try to follow along with the book; instead, I take my black pen and circle the amount of times a person uses the phrase in a single page. The last novel I read, I remembered counting so many uses of the pronoun 'IT' that I lost count after the number fifty-five.

http://theresurrectionseries.wordpress.com/


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Unfortunately, I think I have to disagree with you philosophically. Everything is subjective, but we've predicated human civilization on trying to create objective truths. One of those objective truths we've tried to create is about what makes a good story. 

Being a person who enjoys living in my current culture, I tend to subscribe to most of its "objective" truths. But just because I believe them doesn't make them true. And, in fact, as soon as a majority of people stop believing them, they will become untrue.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

OK. That's how a free market works. Tastes and preferences express themselves by consumers choosing from available offerings. Participants are free to offer and free to choose. The aggregate of choices represents objective data. Just like with widgets.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Thanks. I think I edited while you were answering. Ain't instant communications great?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with being nice. That's simply a way to engage in social interaction without hurting anyone's feelings. Nice focuses on the person. Criticism focuses on the product, and when done well it confines itself to the product, not the author or the critic. Criticism does not enter the realm of being either nice or nasty.

I'm content with people marketing any way they choose. But I'd observe the market really doesn't care what they want. It includes criticism, people who are nice, and people who are not.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Henry, although I think I know where you're coming from, I think many of us "literary" minded folks may have to wake up to the fact that our culture is changing. Many of the standards that we were raised on is being obliterated right before our eyes. Art IS subjective. What many of your posts seem to suggest (and rightfully so) is that there is (was) a way of doing things before that is quickly shifting to more unstylized conventions. Things like spelling, grammar, and plain old standard English are conventions that aren't subjective. However, the kinds of stories and the way they are told now doesn't always adhere to the literary standards that you and I prefer.

Someone who enjoys watching movies like _Gone with the Wind_ or _The Shawshank Redemption _may scoff at someone else who enjoys watching Godzilla movies (like I do). But by what standard do we judge a play like_ Othello_ to be superior to _Death of A Salesman_. My standards or yours? Does Roger Ebert get to define for me what a good movie is? Or should I choose the movies I want to watch based on my own criteria?

Despite the pulpish appeal of the stories I write, I come from the literary end of the writing world. I spend my days reading Sophocles, Homer, Dunsany, and Tolkien. That doesn't mean that I consider reading Brooks or Clancey a less worthwhile venture. I could care less about all those vampire/werewolf novels out there. But I don't get to tell other people what books they should read or why my literary pursuits are more substantive than theirs.

I'll defend the proper use of the English language to my dying breath. But the fact that some readers prefer more contemporary fare that dispenses with many of the established conventions I look for in the books I read, doesn't diminish the fact, that perhaps standards really are changing. Whether for the better or worse, only time will tell.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

I would advise readers to look at the following thread to understand where HP Parker's comments are coming from. I'm afraid this is more dredging for hits on his blog.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=67659.0



> Thanks everyone for visiting my blog! You all have given me 95 visits to this web page. I really love it.


And I'll bring up a few constructive criticisms about your book, HP, that I hope you will address this time to show that you are not sprinkling chocolate on top of your own banana peach icecream--even though I think the analogy is a poor one.

First, your cover looks more like a biology textbook than a fictional story about resurrecting disciples in modern times. Additionally, your reviewers have noted that your disciples have no individual personality and are treated as a group, which alienates the reader from their emotions and experience. Even your main character Clark is described as lacking in character development.

These are important, fundamental aspects that should be fixed before claiming expertise. Your cover should be changed to be more religious or maybe even philosophy than a biology textbook because according to your reviewers, there is no sci-fi to your book anyway. Nothing in the book really makes this seem in any way plausible, you just seem to revive disciples and wave your hands and say "biomedical scientist". So, even if you think you're attracting sci-fi readers, they're likely to be disappointed. Consequently, I would try to hook a different audience with your book--preferably the one you are really marketing to. You did have a target audience in mind right?

And then there's your blurb:



> Nothing stops Bancroft Enterprises from developing the best in scientific technology, despite the harsh competition (Competition encourages a corporation to develop the best in science. You're linking these thoughts together poorly. Perhaps you mean something like "Despite tough competition, Bancroft Enterprises continues to dominate the field by developing the best in biomedical technology"). At the height of its (pronoun disagreement with either the last nouns--harsh competition or scientific technology-- or the next ones in this sentence) power, biomedical technician Clark Ravensdale performs the nearly-impossible: raising six New Testament figures.
> 
> Though criticisms from the religious and scientific communities persist, both groups use this project as an opportunity to advance their agendas. In midst of division, Clark shies away from discussion (extremely clunky), hoping that the fierceness resides (fierceness resides? really?) and won't deter his workaholic life (the fierceness won't deter his workaholic life?). However, those mixed feelings change (What mixed feelings have even been presented here? Are you hoping that the blurb reader will connect the two groups bickering to advance their agendas with instantaneous change? This is vague and useless to a blurb reader. It's not specific enough to draw emotion, and it's just as disjointed as everything else in this paragraph.).
> 
> While some (Groups? People? Scientists? Dogs? Cats?) have characterized the disciples as primitive, others like Clark ( People? Scientists?) notice the abnormal behaviors and uncanny intellect (Make them seem more real! This is TELLING in your freaking blurb. This does not bode well for everything else in your book.). As more time is spent (by Clark? Maybe "As Clark spends more time living with the disciples, his misconceptions regarding the New Testament change and...") living with the disciples, a realization comes to mind: perhaps there is more truth to the New Testament than some thought.(At the end of the blurb, you really want people to be excited about your premise. Instead, it's unlikely they even got this far. The middle paragraph has to change or you've lost readers. This last paragraph is also in dire need of some attention.)


Now, you threatened to review my book last time according to your review criteria, and I will once again roll my eyes if you try to do so. Because here we have a different thread with the same condescension and apparent lack of understanding of writing and marketing skills trying to convince the rest of us that your way is the only valid way to do anything. This type of position doesn't work. It may get you another 100 hits on your blog because we writers are gluttons for punishment, but I hope not. One of these days, I'm hoping you rewrite your book, release it in both eBook and POD and SHOW rather than TELL us how much you know about writing and the industry in general.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Kevis Hendrickson said:


> I'll defend the proper use of the English language to my dying breath. But the fact that some readers prefer more contemporary fare that dispenses with many of the established conventions I look for in the books I read, doesn't diminish the fact, that perhaps standards really are changing. Whether for the better or worse, only time will tell.


I always wait for a statement like this to come along because it sums up the whole argument. Sometimes I feel like I'm wasting my breath, but I'll comment briefly.

Objectivity gives us good grammar, good sentence structure, proper word usage, and an interesting read. The fact that some old grammar rules are being blasted away does not indicate that they all have. Grammar is a consensual thing amongst a group of people (usually, a very large group, i.e. America), but there are a number of basic rules and rather permanent rules which should not be ignored. We have been given brains capable of translating even the poorest of writing, but that's no excuse not to do the best you can and learn/apply the rules to your writing (and keep growing and improving as you go along). Like a computer system, the language and syntax should be as clear as possible for the potential readers.

And, to make a very necessary correction, truth *does* depend solely upon people and their perceptions. It is *fact* which does not depend upon people.

Truth: I saw a man fitting the defendant's description climbing the ladder, and I found Mrs. Murphy stabbed moments later in her apartment.
Fact: Mrs. Murphy was stabbed to death in her apartment.

The subjective bits are story, likeability of characters, liking the plot, and so on. The objective bits would be something to the effect of an author using different names for the same people (consistency), changing the plot mid-book accidentally (We're going to Mordor to destroy the ring of power..._500 pages_...We've come here to Mordor to negotiate a peace treaty), and other mistakes, accidents, or, in some cases, careless smatterings.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

BrianKittrell said:


> I always wait for a statement like this to come along because it sums up the whole argument. Sometimes I feel like I'm wasting my breath, but I'll comment briefly.
> 
> Objectivity gives us good grammar, good sentence structure, proper word usage, and an interesting read. The fact that some old grammar rules are being blasted away does not indicate that they all have. Grammar is a consensual thing amongst a group of people (usually, a very large group, i.e. America), but there are a number of basic rules and rather permanent rules which should not be ignored. We have been given brains capable of translating even the poorest of writing, but that's no excuse not to do the best you can and learn/apply the rules to your writing (and keep growing and improving as you go along). Like a computer system, the language and syntax should be as clear as possible for the potential readers.
> 
> ...


Henry has made it a campaign to defend what he feels is good writing vs. bad writing and I do understand where some of his grief comes from. But language, as with other parts of human culture, is always evolving and we have to adapt to what you refer to as 'consensual' use of that language. To me _gay_ will always mean happy, gray is spelled _grey_, and _epic fail_ is an oxymoron.

I am not a proponent of nihilistic concepts. And I do think that, as Shakespeare wrote _"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"_. But truth is, standards, like fashions, DO change and no one gets to have the final say on what's good or bad. It's my right to believe that a movie like Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen is the worst film of all time and has absolutely no redeeming value. But the fact that it's what I believe doesn't necessarily make me right.


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> And, to make a very necessary correction, truth *does* depend solely upon people and their perceptions. It is *fact* which does not depend upon people.


Hang on. Isn't Fact simply a subset of Truth?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Christopher Bunn said:


> Hang on. Isn't Fact simply a subset of Truth?


Not exactly. I'd venture to put truth as a subset of fact or perhaps a distant cousin, but fact isn't the same as truth, and it most certainly isn't based upon truth. Barring the want or need to get into a debate over the difference, I will simply say that facts are things which exist regardless of whether or not people believe them. For instance:

Fact: I sold X copies of books today. <- A numerical fact backed by physical proof which cannot be refuted by any measure of testimony or other evidence to the contrary.
Truth: I sold X copies of books today, and the result is a large royalty check. <- A perception of reality based upon a numerical fact. It can be refuted with other opinions, testimony, facts, or evidence to the contrary. Telling of the truth can be subjective, while facts are incontrovertible.

Such is why we have courts and a legal system -- to debate truth against fact and find what fits the best, then let 12 people decide if it makes sense. Since truth is based upon people's subjective opinion and individual perception of the real, it will not be the same across different people, even those who experience the exact same event or incident and later tell of it.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Kevis Hendrickson said:


> Henry has made it a campaign to defend what he feels is good writing vs. bad writing and I do understand where some of his grief comes from. But language, as with other parts of human culture, is always evolving and we have to adapt to what you refer to as 'consensual' use of that language. To me _gay_ will always mean happy, gray is spelled _grey_, and _epic fail_ is an oxymoron.
> 
> I am not a proponent of nihilistic concepts. And I do think that, as Shakespeare wrote _"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"_. But truth is, standards, like fashions, DO change and no one gets to have the final say on what's good or bad.


I couldn't agree more. This same argument crops up on an almost daily basis, and it most often (if not always) results in an argument where no party is left feeling satisfied about anything.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

I'll answer this as a reader...

Those things matter.  Grammar, spelling, punctuation, formatting, cover art -- each has a unique power to make a world of difference when you're being told a story.  Recently I tried a sample of a self published book and the formatting was a disaster from page one, I didn't buy the book because of it.  I don't want to have to read through what you're trying to say to get to the point, I'm not editing your book and I shouldn't be expected to pay for the privilege of overlooking mistakes.  

As an "author" (I use the word loosely, because I'm not yet published)...it's frustrating, but it's the way things are done.  Do I cherish the thought of having to spend copious sums on editing?  No, not really.  Would I love to throw my book out to the masses today?  Sure.  But it's not ready.  As an independent author, you can bend some of the rules--but, at the end of the day, you're accountable to your audience, you're writing for them, so what you put out there should be the best of the best...anything less is how "Indie Authors" got the reputation that currently have.  Rather than justify it, we should be working to change it.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Rather than justify it, we should be working to change it."_

I suspect the market will take care of it. We may not like what it decides, but it has figured it out with thousands of other products.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> I used the picture because it deals with one major issue in the book and that's cloning. Hence the science fiction tinge to it. But from a professional perspective, does the book look amateurish. I commented about Kevis's book cover, dubbing her as the 'Starburst Girl'. Nevertheless, I still said he had an impressive book cover.
> True, and I plan to develop them later in the series (this is only the first book).
> Although I agree wholeheartedly for the reasons you cite, including that it lacks entire a complete sci-fi aspect (because it's not truly sci-fi), I would argue that it *contains *sci-fi elements in there because of the _method _I used to bring them back. Besides, the book raises additional questions that are science-related including: cloning, evolution, and psychology. These are particular topics I do cover in various ways which make the book more sci-fi than what you anticipate. I would recommend you buy a copy and read the book.
> 
> ...


Alright, HP. I've started reading the posts in your blog since the lasts ones I saw, and I'm going to start with a fresh slate with you and forget about everything else that happened in previous threads. I think you are genuinely reforming your image, from what I've read so far, and I can definitely appreciate that. Best of luck to you.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> True, and I plan to develop them later in the series (this is only the first book).


I was talking with my editor about something similar to this, and this can be seen as a cop out to a point. Every effort should be made in the first book in which a character appears to flesh them out, make them feel real, and give them character. The only time this doesn't apply is when the character isn't to be used in a later book or is a rarely occurring person. Now, I haven't read the book to make any judgement one way or another, but it's something to consider for any future works.

The question shouldn't be, "In which book will I flesh out this character?". It should be, "How can I flesh this character out and make them real in this book?" Development can occur later (and it should), but a major character in the current book should be developed as best as possible before moving forward.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> I was talking with my editor about something similar to this, and this can be seen as a cop out to a point. Every effort should be made in the first book in which a character appears to flesh them out, make them feel real, and give them character. The only time this doesn't apply is when the character isn't to be used in a later book or is a rarely occurring person. Now, I haven't read the book to make any judgement one way or another, but it's something to consider for any future works.
> 
> The question shouldn't be, "In which book will I flesh out this character?". It should be, "How can I flesh this character out and make them real in this book?" Development can occur later (and it should), but a major character in the current book should be developed as best as possible before moving forward.


Agreed. The series starter, if that's what this book was, has to hook people in. If readers who received a free review copy are telling you that they're disappointed in character development, imagine how a paying customer will feel. If the reader feels burned on the first book, they are highly unlikely to pick up the second book. The only book I've picked up the 2nd one on, despite not particularly liking the first one, was Harry Potter. Yes, I was one of those that did not like the Sorcerer's Stone. It was just too young for me. I could never get into it. After that though, I was able to appreciate the characters and what Rowling was doing (and this was way before I started writing for myself and being even more picky).

If you have frequent enough five stars on later books, people might give the series another chance, but that's a big risk, imo. Just my two cents.

@Parker: As for subscribing, I rarely do that. I just check in on recent posts from time-to-time. I'll try to do that with yours.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> I was talking with my editor about something similar to this, and this can be seen as a cop out to a point. Every effort should be made in the first book in which a character appears to flesh them out, make them feel real, and give them character. The only time this doesn't apply is when the character isn't to be used in a later book or is a rarely occurring person. Now, I haven't read the book to make any judgement one way or another, but it's something to consider for any future works.
> 
> The question shouldn't be, "In which book will I flesh out this character?". It should be, "How can I flesh this character out and make them real in this book?" Development can occur later (and it should), but a major character in the current book should be developed as best as possible before moving forward.


Very well said! Characters must be developed from the start. I've seen writers jump right into back story at the beginning, and that bores me to tears, too. I want to see character development through their words and actions right now. Then, you can fill in what's missing with flashbacks and interactions with others as you go. The more actions and interactions the reader reads, the more that character is more fully developed. By the time I close that first book, I want to feel like I know that character, even that they were my best friend.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> From Parker's "N*othing Says It Like a Free E-Book*"​
> I gotta admit, nothing says it like getting a free book from places like Smashwords or Kindle Boards. Almost every desperate self-published author uses this method as a means of offering a 'sampling' to the general public. If the public likes it, they'll want to see more as authors hope. While the gist of the idea sounds ever sincere and hopeful for the self-published or 'indie' authors as they like to call themselves, nothing screams louder than the words bad idea.
> 
> Although I understand the motives of promotion and wanting others to read the work, finding reasons why anyone would use this method to further promote a book is stunning, not to mention that it's dumb (at least that's what most readers think, except for others like Henry Baum who thinks that everyone should make their book free).
> ...


Knock this all you want, and maybe it doesn't work for every author, but I HAVE seen authors this has worked VERY well for. Give away the first book in the series, and if the reader likes that book, they will start buying all of the series. And, the .99 price point just makes it that much easier for the reader to pick them all up at once.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

L.A. Tripp said:


> Knock this all you want, and maybe it doesn't work for every author, but I HAVE seen authors this has worked VERY well for. Give away the first book in the series, and if the reader likes that book, they will start buying all of the series. And, the .99 price point just makes it that much easier for the reader to pick them all up at once.


Agreed. Ask a few authors around here what free books have done for them. David Dalglish and his several thousands of dollars a month comes to mind.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

HAParker321 said:


> BTW, Rex. Would you like to subscribe to my blog?
> 
> Parker


Parker,

If you want to have a discussion here in the Writers' Cafe, that's cool. However, if this thread is going to be a solicitation for your blog, I'll have to move it to the Book Bazaar, thanks!

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

Parker . . . could you clarify?

Would that be effort in the writing, effort in the marketing, effort in the web presence, effort in giving away free copies . . . ?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm sorry if I come across as rude in any of this, but I must say that effort alone is not always enough to get yourself out there. Sometimes you have to alter your plans, and for some, they have no problem reducing prices. Some search high and low for reviewers and bloggers, some Spam people, and some have a friend with a popular blog where the friend promotes their work. Some reduce prices to entice readers more. Considering some of the options available, reducing the price seems to be better to me than spamming people.

As to effort, sure, put effort into your promotional efforts and do it tastefully; however, I would be apt to hear from people with greater experience in that area. And, by that, I mean (and, again, not trying to be rude) people who have books above the #600,000 rank in the Kindle store. Discounting everyone who prices low to compete is a bit irresponsible; I'd encourage you to spend some time with us here and see why people do the things they do before writing them off as needing to put more effort in.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> From Parker's "N*othing Says It Like a Free E-Book*"​
> I gotta admit, nothing says it like getting a free book from places like Smashwords or Kindle Boards. Almost every desperate self-published author uses this method as a means of offering a 'sampling' to the general public. If the public likes it, they'll want to see more as authors hope. While the gist of the idea sounds ever sincere and hopeful for the self-published or 'indie' authors as they like to call themselves, nothing screams louder than the words bad idea.
> 
> Although I understand the motives of promotion and wanting others to read the work, finding reasons why anyone would use this method to further promote a book is stunning, not to mention that it's dumb (at least that's what most readers think, except for others like Henry Baum who thinks that everyone should make their book free).
> ...


*blink* Your reasoning against offering freebies, according to your blog post, seems to be:

a) it's dumb ('most' readers think so?)
b) no-one will take your book seriously

That's it? _That's_ your argument?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

On the top left one, I'd probably click to read the blurb for no other reason than to figure out what is sexy about backgammon.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> On the top left one, I'd probably click to read the blurb for no other reason than to figure out what is sexy about backgammon.


Ha! Love it


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> Not just that but also because readers know the quality of your work by the price you sell it for.


... and they download books that are, therefore, obviously crap, because...?

... and they read them and buy others in the series because...?


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> I'm not following what you're saying here.


What she's saying is that you're claiming free doesn't work when it's an established precedent with plenty of data and testimonials to back it up. Customers have always flocked to free, especially when they think they are getting a deal. So, a book with many 5 star reviews from book reviewers that also went free? It gets on specialized free lists and often gets posted on book bloggers. People have reported tens of thousands of downloads and lots of sales, especially if the free book introduces a series, but in general, it's all across the board. The more books you have available, the more likely a free book will attract you additional sales.

Free is a short term hook to get people into your brand. For stores, free is used to get customers into the door. For authors, you're enticing readers into your bookshelf. And zero readers that I know of share your opinion. If the Harry Potter books were to go online for free for any period of time, you would see a massive rush to the stores. No reader would go "no way I'm buying that book. It's free. Obvious bad quality is obvious."

A lesser rush usually happens for any book that goes free temporarily. And the larger the value the reader thinks they are getting with the free deal, the more likely they might sample your other books and maybe even buy. That's the principle. It's not about devaluing the book. It's about offering incentives to readers to spend more money than they planned on by getting them into the door and hooking them faster than they can leave. And if you can land in the top 100 free downloads on Amazon, there are a lot of customers that use that list quite a bit to shop for authors they are willing to invest their hard-earned money on.

As you said, a lot of people think that "It's all subjective" about subjects in which it's not subjective. And the truth is not reflected in your post. If you want to sell books, you have to start thinking like a publisher instead of an author attaching a specific value to a book.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> I'm not following what you're saying here.


I'm saying that your logic seems to be counter to my experience. If every reader judges the quality of my free book by its price, then why do people download it, read it, and then buy others in the series? Because they're looking for low-quality reads?

From what I can see, you have all of one book available for sale, and that not in the Kindle store. What, exactly, is the experience on which you're drawing for the advice you're giving? Or are you just sharing opinions for the fun of it?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Naomi, I sent you a PM.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

nomesque said:


> I'm saying that your logic seems to be counter to my experience. If every reader judges the quality of my free book by its price, then why do people download it, read it, and then buy others in the series? Because they're looking for low-quality reads?
> 
> From what I can see, you have all of one book available for sale, and that not in the Kindle store. What, exactly, is the experience on which you're drawing for the advice you're giving? Or are you just sharing opinions for the fun of it?


That would be my take, pretty much. There is a human tendency of which are all doubtless familiar, to speak with the greatest authority where one has the least knowledge.

I see no logic, nor hint of rationality in any of HP's arguments. A cover of limited quality says absolutely nothing about the quality of the work, though it may say something about the available budget, or something about the writers ability _as an artist_.

We can, conveniently, use my own work as an example of HP's abilities to advise on quality. After reading five whole pages of one book, HP slated it (in several locations, after I mentioned his generally shabby treatment of writers on this forum, as I thought that writers should know what they were getting into - oh, there has been no drop in sales, HP; just sayin'); the book has otherwise gained only 4&5 star reviews, readers have then bought book II in the series, and readers of book II have then made efforts _to find and buy book III. _ It is thus clear to me that HP's critical faculties are lacking, and his attempts to set himself up as the sole arbiter of taste in literature are absurd.

While we are on the subject, HP, your snidely implied assertion on your site that I changed covers due to your advice is erroneous. The site cover art review was entirely responsible as there were comments there from writers whose opinions I respect.

Oh; I forgot price. An ebook has zero intrinsic value bar the download cost. It is all subjective, and determined by the potential buyer. Readers have told me already that I should charge more - it is I who choose not to, at this time. Perceived value is exactly that - perceived, not intrinsic. Price and value are not directly related. The concept of a 'sale' cannot be beyond your grasp; it is hardly a new idea.

Also, and then I'm done, your earlier assertion that 'poor covers' make us look bad is logically flawed - surely the less well executed cover of another book would logically make better covers look even better by comparison? Less skilled writing would logically make better writing look even better by comparison, surely?

He will doubtless argue this. But I will not, as I deem it a pointless exercises and a waste of my time. I leave others to make their own determination on that point.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> This comes from two aspects (1) authors who actually do give their books away for free and having troubles selling a single copy and (2) having a knack for business relationships.





HAParker321 said:


> > It's obvious, you don't know what you're talking about. Bottom line.
> 
> 
> I think I do, sorry.


You've sold 20 books.

I'm going to repeat that.

You've sold 20 books.

What the heck makes you qualified to judge covers, say what will and will not sell, gripe about quality of other indie's writing, and claim certain strategies such as releasing a free book don't work? (Which, for the record, works phenomenally well, and I've got more emails from fans telling me they started my Half-Orc series solely because it was free, and thanking me for it, than you've got sales).


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> As I have said in the previous post, let me repeat it again. Although I know 20 copies are not as much as you seem to think, the monetary value I have gained from selling these copies are just as much in value were I to sell my books @ .99 cents. The difference is that I am selling it through selling hard copies. Were these e-book copies, then it would be a different ball game.
> 
> Parker


If you're selling hard copies, and evidently only hard copies, doesn't that make you even *less* qualified to talk about e-book covers, e-book pricing, and condemn giving away free e-books?


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

HAParker321 said:


> I would beg to differ seeing that I have BA in English and read several books on the topic (which are written by real professionals).
> 
> Parker


Are you for real? Or is this candid camera?


----------



## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

HAParker321 said:


> No, for real. Would you like to know the kinds of books I read?
> 
> Parker


I really would not.


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

HAParker321 said:


> Not even Noah Lukeman's "The Five Pages"? He writes really good.
> 
> Parker


Especially not that one. It was a regurgitation of stuff you can Google for free.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> As I have said in the previous post, let me repeat it again. Although I know 20 copies are not as much as you seem to think, the monetary value I have gained from selling these copies are just as much in value were I to sell my books @ .99 cents. The difference is that I am selling it through selling hard copies. Were these e-book copies, then it would be a different ball game.
> 
> Parker


This post makes no sense at all. The monetary value of 20 hard copies is the same as if you sold them at 99 cents? How so? How much are the hard copies? Would you have sold enough ecopies at 99 cents to equal that amount? Are you sure? That seems pretty speculative to me, and completely unquantifiable. Maybe you have access to Professor Fansworth's "What If" macine. If so, please let me borrow it sometime.

While we are on the subject: "...the monetary value I have gained from selling these copies are just as much in value were I to sell my books @ .99 cents."

Yup. And a bicycle are fun to ride.


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## AKLoggie (Aug 13, 2011)

I'm sure you're feeling pleased that you're driving traffic to your website.  Is that actually creating sales of your book?  I find it doubtful.

I would NEVER EVER buy a book that would not let me read an excerpt.  I assume that it's terrible.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

David McAfee said:


> This post makes no sense at all. The monetary value of 20 hard copies is the same as if you sold them at 99 cents? How so? How much are the hard copies? Would you have sold enough ecopies at 99 cents to equal that amount? Are you sure? That seems pretty speculative to me, and completely unquantifiable. Maybe you have access to Professor Fansworth's "What If" macine. If so, please let me borrow it sometime.
> 
> While we are on the subject: "...the monetary value I have gained from selling these copies are just as much in value were I to sell my books @ .99 cents."
> 
> Yup. And a bicycle are fun to ride.


And, of course,


HAParker321 said:


> He writes really good.


Now, I've looked at the book, and it's published by CreateSpace. It is $15.95 at 352 pages (let's not even get into how overpriced customers will view this. I have a 300-page hardcover coming out for $16.95 next month...). According to CS, it will yield non-pro/pro:

eStore: $4.22 / $7.69
Amazon: $1.03 / $4.50
Elsewhere -- / $1.31

So, all of that is greater than the 35% royalty split on a $0.99 title. Therefore, our friend has made between $26.20 and $153.80 on these hard copies.



> I would beg to differ seeing that I have BA in English and read several books on the topic (which are written by real professionals).


I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.



Half-Orc said:


> I think I do, sorry.
> 
> You've sold 20 books.
> 
> ...


You have drawn the ire of the Davids, sir.



HAParker321 said:


> I don't know, I seem to have had eighty viewers since yesterday.


Well, unfortunately, that has turned up 0 additional sales. Traffic without action is useless traffic. If you intend to market to your audience, I'd post more about things that mattered to your target audience, like biological sciences. Like the characters in your books. Like anything about yourself or your "authorly" doings. There are people who point and laugh at others as a job. They're called critics, and they're a dime a dozen.

Create, don't destroy. You'll be more useful to the world that way.

Oh, and I somehow missed this:



HAParker321 said:


> The biggest problem is that you have a large mix of authors both good and bad using this strategy without the reader's finding out. When they *DO* find out, they are less apt to read or purchase the rest of it.


And that's perfectly OK, too. At least the author and reader have the peace of mind to know it was a free book; the author isn't taking money from someone who hated their book, and the reader isn't shelling out money for something they hated. To me, that's something useful about a free offering. Of course, some may disagree with me that you lose the money from the sale on the free one, but I would say I wouldn't want their money, anyway. Money's not everything, but I agree with Half-Orc that at least some sales or length of time spent actually doing this is necessary to be a self-proclaimed expert.



HAParker321 said:


> but these 'writers' give us a bad name.


And missed that, too. The only thing a writer can do is give himself a bad name or bad reputation. Do we judge all movies on the basis of the horrible ones? Just because they make a crappy, B movie, does that mean theater goers are less likely to go see a movie because of it? Absolutely not. They have their favorite actors, favorite genres, and favorite directors; they'll go see the movies they like by the people they like.

Likewise, readers will cling to the works of their favorite authors. They will test the waters of new authors and make a decision, for better or worse. They'll discover new books while discovering authors they will avoid. Such is life and the way of the world.


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

HA Parker321, these are some of your posts -

>>Not really, *because I'm addressing about the concept of Self-Publishing *in general which does include e-books and its strategies. <<

and

>>I've encountered people who used this strategy and told me that it hasn't worked. Why? *Because either their writings are not so great (which a lot of 'indies' books are)* and some that are. I have published several positive reviews as seem over here:<<

and

>>I would beg to differ seeing that I have BA in English and read several books on the topic (which are written by real professionals). What I am saying here *is not going to get any different that what you are going to get* on the other writers. <<

I've been reading your posts and then I saw the post where you mention that you have a BA in English. 

If you do, you need to ask for your money back. Your grammar isn't what it should be if you're going to play English-and-Grammar-school-teacher around here.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Victoria! You go, girl!

Sometimes the title of a thread just says it all. 


Parker, I'll see your B.A. in English and raise you a Ph.D.. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in Antarctica? If I were your former academic advisor, I'd cringe. 

I now expect to be chastized by the mods for abandoning my usual courtesy. Some members of the board just BEG for it, and once in a while I must oblige. In my opinion, this thread is serving no useful purpose whatsoever.

--Professor 'Archer'


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

But, but . . . professor Archer, it sure is . . . it's allowing us all to sit here and laugh! Surely that accounts for SOMETHING useful?

Yeah, I missed this too:


> The biggest problem is that you have a large mix of authors both good and bad using this strategy without the reader's finding out. When they DO find out, they are less apt to read or purchase the rest of it.


Ok, so by that logic, once a reader finds that they just got a book for free as a means of promoting the rest of that author's work . . . *cough* they will not be buying the rest of that author's work because that's just low down and underhanded? Really? The way I see it, if an author's work is good, and people start finding out that this author's work is good, that author's work will sell. If an author's work is bad, and people start finding out that the author's work is bad, it'll stop selling. How do people find out? By, um, reading that work. What does a free giveaway do? Um, allow people to take a chance on that author's work.

Any questions?

P.S.


> In what sense? Have you done any research on the topic of writing? Do you write better than I do? What qualifications do you have?


I see your research and raise you a publishing company. Yes, I have a small press. Though my personal books may be in a slump in the erealm, they sell in hard copy. And, the authors in my company sell well, too. I'm just trying to figure out how to move my own as well as help them boost theirs, in this erealm. I'm a complete novice in the world of ebooks. The difference between me and you is, I'll readily admit this fact.

As far as how I write, I have my own style. Likely you won't find it "proper" enough to suit your standards. That's fine by me.

Regarding qualifications . . . show me your piece of paper and I'll present one of my own. All it is, is a piece of paper. Anyone can go to any store, by the paper, and draft it to say whatever they want. Cool beans?


----------



## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

Hey, at least we're all helping him build his post count . . . gotta give him props for that


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> It's about subjectivity and the style of writing.


By your second post on this thread, the topic hasn't been about subjectivity and writing styles. The vast majority of this thread has been about how free ebooks are bad, how bad covers are bad, and how bad other authors can be. There has been very, very little about the craft itself.

The biggest point people are trying to make is that you purport to know what you're doing, but you lack any evidence or experience thereof. A BA in English and reading a book does not an expert make, and that's the point I was trying to make with my Holiday Inn Express comment above.



HAParker321 said:


> And somehow you do a better job?


I certainly don't go around complaining about other peoples' works when it's really none of my concern; regardless of what I or others or even you may say, people will do whatever they want to do. Since I've been doing this for a while, I've come to care less and less about what other people do because the effort of moaning and griping could be instead applied to my own work, making my own stuff that much better.



HAParker321 said:


> Let's try $320 because that's the approximate amount I made.


Now, I can no longer talk to you. Either:

1) $15.95 * 20 = $319. YOU didn't make $319 from 20 sales. You split it up with Amazon, and you get less than half that per copy under the best scenario. Everyone here _knows this as an incontrovertible fact_. As I showed, the maximum you could have made under this model is ~$154. There's absolutely no way you can go higher than that with CreateSpace under the best of conditions. There's just not. Since your hard copies yield the largest royalty possible, we don't even have to consider the eBooks. (It would take ~115 copies yielding a royalty of ~$2.79 (at his price point of $3.99) of eBooks to get to ~$319, for those who absolutely must know.)
2) You bought 20 copies and almost doubled the price to others.

Lying about how much you made is not going to garner any additional credibility. Too bad it wasn't a BS of Mathematics.

And, if you did make that much, doubling the price for friends and family says a lot.


----------



## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

What grates you whether it's a "sample" or a completely free book? The readers don't have an issue with that. Why do YOU? Either way, it's a free product engineered to gain more paying fans for that particular writer. PERIOD.


----------



## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

Stop while you're ahead.

I didn't point out typos. You *DO* have issues with grammar, which is what I pointed out.

On top of all of that, you come here with your nose in the air as if you're better than most indie authors and act as if you can assist us. You can't. I can't figure out whether you are malicious or just clueless. I seem to remember a while back where you tried to "review" a book written by an author who is clearly a superior writer (and no I never bought your book but I have read some of your posts. He's a far better writer than you) and you trashed his book on Amazon.com.

If you think that insulting indie authors on an_ indie author forum_ and pretending to have knowledge you clearly don't have (and we can see through all of your bluster) then not only do you need to ask for a refund for your B.A. in English but you also need to sign up for some course in business and marketing. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish here but you've burned bridges with the Amazon fiasco. Don't think for a minute that people have forgotten it and don't think that coming here with a "holier than thou" attitude that you're going to live it down.

That is all.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Ye gods, I don't believe I'm still posting here, but this is one of my pet peeves! 

'He writes good' is not a 'typo', Parker. 
A typo is a typographical error. Poor grammar is poor grammar. I'm sure one can find errors in my posts, too, but if I had started a thread that specifically decried the widespread use of improper grammar, I'd take a little more time with them. 



HAParker321 said:


> I'm not playing English and Grammar school teacher here; it's not the reason why I mentioned it. Secondly, there are mistakes that are called 'typos' that often happen whenever someone writes something spontaneously without much care to go back and 'edit'. Granted, I am writing on a thread and there are Grammatical errors in plenty of my posts, I do not think that makes me any less of a Grammatical expert. Besides, this is not a form of a scholastic publication.
> 
> Parker


I don't enjoy reading poorly-edited books either. Fortunately, the sampling feature has allowed me to avoid most of them. Like all self-pubbed authors, I share the burden of the 'indie' stigma. But I am only responsible for the quality of what_ I publish_, not for anyone else. Writing 'style' _IS _ subjective, though mechanics are not (excluding debatable points in comma useage and so forth). Some writers intentionally break rules in the name of 'style'--which is their privilege. I can usually tell when a writer is making a stylistic choice and when he/she is clueless about proper mechanics. One should know the rules before one breaks them. That said, there are readers for all authors regardless of style/grammatical competence. I hope you find many appreciative readers in the future.

Off to prepare for evening class now. Take care, all.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

stepping in here to clarify a few things.

1) Earlier in the thread, I stepped in to say discussion was good, promotion was bad. I was referring to Parker's request that another member subscribe to his blog. That's a no-no in the Writers' Cafe. Discussing blog posts here is done all the time; we walk a fine line over discussion vs promotion and try to err on the side of allowing discussion.

2) Troll is a four letter word here on KindleBoards. Using it, or calling people other names, will result in posts being edited or removed. And have been in this thread. Don't do it. Strong opinions are fine, but y'all are writers. Use your words. Discuss things without name calling.

3) The minimum standard for conversation here on KindleBoards is civility and politeness. If you think this standard has veen violated, by all means report the post instead of responding in kind.

If you do not think you can discuss things calmly in this thread, move on. Really. There are a lot of threads here on KindleBoards and there is no rule saying that something _has_ to be responded to. 

By the way, you can go to Private Message Options in your profile to put someone on "Ignore." This not only affects PMs but posts by that individual. I suggest you try it if you can't ignore them on your own.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> I've encountered people who used this strategy and told me that it hasn't worked. Why? Because either their writings are not so great (which a lot of 'indies' books are) and some that are.


Soooo... your argument is that a book will not garner sales of the author's other books if it's bad? Well DUH. Any marketing is doomed to eventual failure if the book is bad.



HAParker321 said:


> The biggest problem is that you have a large mix of authors both good and bad using this strategy without the reader's finding out. When they *DO* find out, they are less apt to read or purchase the rest of it.


Then you really need to specify that you're directing your advice to people with bad books, that they expect to fail.



HAParker321 said:


> I have it available on Kindle too, you need to click on the amazon logo to purchase it. I suppose I might need to use something else then. Sorry.


Brian PMed the link to me - but it's marked unavailable for me.



HAParker321 said:


> This comes from two aspects (1) authors who actually do give their books away for free and having troubles selling a single copy and (2) having a knack for business relationships.


In other words, ya got nothing. Look, I don't have a problem with people offering opinions. It's that you seem to be trying to offer _advice_... when you don't have the knowledge or experience to back it up. That's not helpful to anyone.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> Let's try $320 because that's the approximate amount I made.


Well over $3000 and increasing daily, primarily due to giving an ebook away for free.

*steps aside for David to point out that he's at least 10 times as qualified as I am*


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> I have BA in English


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> It's about subjectivity and the style of writing.


Really? Well, then, let's get back to that, shall we? So, as far as I'm aware, there are two basic arguments for objectivity in anything. They go something like this.

A: There is objectivity!
B: Oh yeah? Says who?
A: Says everyone.
B: You mean the society collectively agrees on what is good or bad? Well, that means it's subjective, since tastes change.

or...

A: There is objectivity!
B: Oh yeah? Says who?
A: Says God/Fate/the Cave of Ideals
B: I don't believe in God or Fate or Caves of Ideals
A: Well I do.
B: Yeah, well, your opinion is clearly subjective, since we don't share it.

There may be other arguments for objectivity that I'm not aware of. But I believe that there is no blueprint for how to successfully live your live or how to write/market books. Everyone does the best he or she can. Some people are more successful than others. Sometimes you can figure out why. Sometimes you can't. It's not clearer than that because life isn't easy, and it's darned SUBJECTIVE. In my opinion, worrying about what everyone else is doing and criticizing them is wasting time that would be better spent working on my own writing. Because, as much as I like everybody else, I'm not responsible for them. I'm only responsible for me. Worrying about how they behave will just make me cranky. Instead, I choose to focus on myself and try to work as hard as I can to be the best I can.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> $16 * 20= $320 (Let's be realistic, I wouldn't charge '$15.95' when I offer this to people physically.)
> 
> When I'm ordering physical copies (and on multiple orders), the shipping and production costs are cheaper. Still, I said that's the amount of money I made w/o the inclusion of shipping and production costs.
> I would not be lying if I said that what I made was prior to putting shipping and production costs into consideration. Too bad you don't have a BS in Logic/Philosophy.


'I made $x' is commonly used to denote the end result, or profit margin. Hence the confusion. Too bad you don't have a BA in English. Wait...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Well, I see y'all are back on topic: _It's All Subjective (And Other Fairly Stupid Ideas)_ 
*sigh*
seriously, folks? Haven't you anything better to do?

Betsy


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Whether or not objective truth exists or not is immaterial to the applicability of your behavior. If, indeed, there is an objectively perfect way to self-publish, wouldn't you be better served by following it yourself and illustrating by example? What do you gain by railing against others who do not follow the standards you feel are the right ones? If you're right, then you will obviously become quite successful, and people will be bothering you for your secret. Then you could share with them what the "right" way to do things was, and I'm sure they'd be most attentive. 

At any rate, I shall leave you to it, whatever you deem is the best way for you to move forward. I had kept out of the conversation for four pages. I shouldn't have allowed myself to be sucked back in.

(A pox on arguing on the internets!)

Also, I wish you the best of luck with your self-publishing endeavors, our differing philosophies notwithstanding.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

It's charming to see all this pub philosophy on KB, but some of the views expressed have been so tangled that I can't make up my mind if the posters are post-modernists, post-post-modernists, or disgruntled modernists who think they might want to be post-mdernists but haven't quite got their heads around relativism yet.

I just Kant understand it.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> WRONG.
> 
> $16 * 20= $320 (Let's be realistic, I wouldn't charge '$15.95' when I offer this to people physically.)
> 
> I would not be lying if I said that what I made was prior to putting shipping and production costs into consideration. ...


Yeah, you wouldn't be lying if you had wrote it as "My books generated X dollars of which I got a cut." You said, "I made $320 dollars." You said, specifically:



> Let's try $320 because that's the approximate amount I made.


I'm sorry, but saying you made $320 off your books is a lie. In the realm of reality and logic where the rest of us live, saying you made X amount is the same as saying "I took home X amount" or "I deposited X amount in my bank because that's the money I got." It's not a measure of how much money changed hands and went into different peoples' pockets. "I made X money" means the amount you kept after spending the money; the production and shipping don't just magically vanish because you spent those things up front if you sold them personally to others, and they are always in the equation when selling to strangers over the internet or through retailers.

You're talking about total sales gross like you might talk about total gross salary. These concepts are very different when considering a professional salary against a royalty situation. This is due to the fact that you're not grossing anything other than your royalty; Amazon grosses the $15.95, and you gross your royalty payment of much, much less (and subsequently pay taxes on that amount). I have a strong feeling that you know the difference, but I'm not sure why you're exaggerating the numbers. It's not like $320 is just vastly more impressive than $154, so just use the real, truthful data. Or, do what others here do: don't discuss dollar figures. Both are perfectly acceptable.

If you sell it yourself, yeah, in some bizarre, convoluted way, you have "made" $320, then minus all the charges, it ends up being like $154 bucks with the CS pro plan. The $154 bucks is what you actually made, though.

You didn't claim that the $320 was before shipping and production costs, and you also claim:



> When I'm ordering physical copies (and on multiple orders), the shipping and production costs are cheaper. Still, I said that's the amount of money I made w/o the inclusion of shipping and production costs.


Yes, the marginal shipping cost when ordering more books goes down, but the production cost does not. Another incontrovertible fact that just about everybody around here knows by now is that Print on Demand (POD) services like CreateSpace do not do volume discounts on production costs. Lightning Source does for orders of (I believe) over 500 copies at once because they can handle short runs and long runs. Please, just stop lying and exaggerating things now. It's getting silly.



> Too bad you don't have a BS in Logic/Philosophy.


This has nothing to do with philosophy, and I have no problem with logic in this matter.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Well, I see y'all are back on topic: _It's All Subjective (And Other Fairly Stupid Ideas)_
> *sigh*
> seriously, folks? Haven't you anything better to do?
> 
> Betsy


I'd rather not be here talking about these issues (and I'll probably stop whether this topic stays open or not), but I did feel he was portraying inaccuracies about self-pubbing that could confuse or otherwise harm new people. Even if everyone abandons it, I'm sure we'll see some blog link spam to bump it back up over the next several days or so.

I do not envy your job. ;P

_<<  Brian. But seriously, let's all move on. --Betsy>>_


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> Out of a number of posts that I have been making throughout the Kindle Boards, there are only a handful of people who are not only interested in getting serious help, but also are willing to listen and appreciate the type of assistance I am providing for those who want to improve their books.


Yup, you're right. The others who want help are looking for competent advice.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

It's funny that this thread has gone through 4 or 5 name changes . . . 

Yes, competent advice. More so than selling 20 books gives you . . . unless that's 20 books a day, or an hour.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

It depends on what your goal is. Some writers just want to write the absolute perfect MS. Other writers prefer to sell millions of copies. Sometimes you can marry the two goals. Most of the time you can't. 

Quality is in the eye of the beholder. The eye of the beholder is the reader. Each reader wants something different, hence the popularity of different authors. For one reader, the absolute perfect sentence qualifies as quality writing. Anything less is trash. For another reader, an absolutely gripping story qualifies as quality writing, whether there are typos in the writing itself or not.

One cannot teach quality unless one knows what quality is to the reader.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> The number of copies sold do not function as the 'standard' of quality writing. You guys should know better.


Certainly gives an indication of the quality of the marketing applied to it, though, doesn't it?


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

I don't think you're crass or rude, dude. Ill-informed, yes. Prone to nattering about things you know very little about, yes. Irritating in your continual requests for attention, most certainly. But crass? Not yet. 

So, are you finding that the Pain In The Arse school of marketing has helped you sell many ebooks?


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

HAParker321 said:


> P.S.
> What did you think of my post?


I think you're trying to irritate people. *shrug* I don't see any other vaguely sensible reason for putting that sort of self-important drivel online where potential readers will see it. And I'd prefer to think that it's your marketing skills that are lacking, rather than your character or intelligence.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Ah, to review something based upon two chapters. As useful as the people who post reviews on Amazon based upon the free sample, in my opinion.

Wouldn't this be better in "The Book Bazaar" since it's a book review?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Well, the link to the Book Bazaar is http://www.kboards.com/index.php/board,42.0.html, but I'd wait for Ann or Betsy to either decide on it or move it for you since the post has already been made. And, of course, they may say it's fine to stay here. I'm not the moderator.


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## Les Turner (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm really confused, does somebody keep changing the name of this thread?

And it seems a bit pointless to review a book when you only read the first two chapters. How can you give the book a C+ rating when you read so little of it?


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

Les Turner said:


> I'm really confused, does somebody keep changing the name of this thread?
> 
> And it seems a bit pointless to review a book when you only read the first two chapters. How can you give the book a C+ rating when you read so little of it?


First, I try to keep my thread reviews separate but the problem is that the moderators change it.

Secondly, I can tell what kind writing the book is going to be by looking at the first few chapters. If the style or even the tone of writing is bad, then the rest of the work is bad (most likely). You might want to check out the other standards I have for other authors.

Parker


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

To Clarify:  HAP, as is the case for anyone, is allowed ONE THREAD for each book or blog.  In this case, it's his review Blog.  One thread.  So, yes, we merge new reviews into this single thread when they're posted independently.  

As always, the OP of a thread may rename the thread by modifying the first post.  When we merge, we tend to use the most recent title the OP has used unless the existing title is more descriptive.

Ann
KindleBoards Moderator


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## Les Turner (Mar 13, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> First, I try to keep my thread reviews separate but the problem is that the moderators change it.
> 
> Secondly, I can tell what kind writing the book is going to be by looking at the first few chapters. If the style or even the tone of writing is bad, then the rest of the work is bad (most likely). You might want to check out the other standards I have for other authors.
> 
> Parker


So based on your sentence above I should assume all your reviews are poorly written with missing words? Using your guide I won't bother reading your other reviews because of that first sentence.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> Secondly, I can tell what kind writing the book is going to be by looking at the first few chapters. If the style or even the tone of writing is bad, then the rest of the work is bad (most likely). You might want to check out the other standards I have for other authors.
> 
> Parker


You know what? Style of writing and tone of writing does not make for a bad book. It's a personal preference and should be stated as such.


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

L.A. Tripp said:


> You know what? Style of writing and tone of writing does not make for a bad book. It's a personal preference and should be stated as such.


You do know what I mean by 'style' right? Did you check my other article out?

Parker


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time here.



HAParker321 said:


> A few missed words here and there happen on occasion. It's not the same in combination of other things that come into play.
> 
> Parker


Judge not lest ye be judged first. I'm normally forgiving of reviewers, but when one purports to be an author themselves, I expect the review and their own writing--not just in books, but everywhere--to be of a consistent, higher quality. A few missed words do happen here or there, and some of us don't have the luxury of spell check while on forums, but it should be a little better than what we've seen.

If you're publishing reviews to the internet, the writing should reflect your own skill. It's a review, after all--much shorter and easier to edit and proof. Additionally, you could use reviews to showcase your own mastery of the English language instead of the opposite.

Happy Thanksgiving if I don't see you before then.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> You find my reviews and articles quite useful.


Can't say that I do. I've only read one review posted here, and I found it not useful based upon the fact it was a review of the first two chapters.



> I am always striving to be a better writer, and that's something I'm always open to admitting. With that said, besides the missing words, what other grammatical errors do you see?
> 
> Parker


"Would the lives of these authors be ruined if someone publishes something negative about their reviews?"

- Verb tense agreement: "ruined", past tense (with conditional), "publishes", present tense (with conditional). Quickest fix: publishes -> published. More complex fix (and more appropriate for the context): "Would the lives of these authors be ruined if someone were to publish something negative about their reviews?"
- Context: the sentence does not support the paragraph; you're not speaking of publishing something negative about their reviews, you're speaking of publishing a negative review. Or, you could have said, "publishing something negative about their books" to make the sentence agree with the paragraph.

"If I think the book is trash, I will have no troubles in calling the book trash like James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake."

- Verb disagreement with conditional: If... I will -> If... I would.
- Definite article doesn't fit context as well as an indefinite article, since you're not talking about a specific book. The context indicates you're making a bit of a sweeping statement.
- Would read better if tightened up, rearranged, broken up, and rewritten to be clearer.

For instance: "If I think a book is trash, I have no problem calling the book trash. One such book is James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake." Or, "If I think a book is trash, I have no problem trashing the book in public." Tight and even a little interesting when rewritten and cleaned up.

"Whenever I begin receiving submission from authors of differing sorts, you can guarantee that all of them are of the anxious sort i.e., wanting someone or something to spit out immediate feedback in the most positive manner."

- This sentence is WAY overwritten.

How about: "When I receive submissions from authors, all of them are anxious to receive positive feedback and to receive it quickly."

"If writing books were meant to please all kinds of critics, then there would be positive reviews all the time."

How about: "If every book pleased every critic, we would see only positive reviews."

"Most of the time, these negative criticisms come from one of two critics: the ones who are 'constructive' in their opinions when they analyze the works that self-published writers put out there or the ones who do not care about the feelings the author has or the type of 'sweat and blood' that goes into the work."

How about: "These criticism tend to come from one of two types of critics: the constructive and those who are not."
Then, to get the point across, you could say, "The latter often do not care about the amount of 'sweat and blood' that goes into a work, but they usually aren't concerned with the author's feelings."

"Even in light of what criticism I receive whether that comes from my own family and friends or the cruel critics, I realize that their opinions have a sense of value, no matter how cold or cruel someone's remarks are about a particular piece of work."

- It's been established that we're talking about books.
- We could list possible sources for criticism until the cows come home. Unnecessary and wordy.

How about: "Regardless of the criticism of my own work or the source, I realize that opinions of my work can be used for self-improvement, no matter how cold or cruel the remarks."

Going back to work and to dinner for now.


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## Les Turner (Mar 13, 2011)

Brian, you just hurt my brain. That was awesome.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Les Turner said:


> Brian, you just hurt my brain. That was awesome.


lol So sorry, I hope you have enough turkey tomorrow to cure it. I know I will.


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

> Can't say that I do. I've only read one review posted here, and I found it not useful based upon the fact it was a review of the first two chapters.


You might want to read a few other reviews where I do actually read more than two chapters. 



> "Would the lives of these authors be ruined if someone were to publish something negative about their reviews?"


I did not catch that, thanks. 



> This sentence is WAY overwritten.


Sometimes, I do overwrite; this is one of the few sentences that are like that. That is why I usually go back and I re-read them prior to publishing. Nevertheless I agree with what you said.



> How about: "If every book pleased every critic, we would see only positive reviews."


Are you arguing more about the fact that I overwrite things or just the word order? The first one was legitimate, but the other one...well uhhh... I'm confused.

Parker


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> You might want to read a few other reviews where I do actually read more than two chapters.
> I did not catch that, thanks.
> Sometimes, I do overwrite; this is one of the few sentences that are like that. That is why I usually go back and I re-read them prior to publishing. Nevertheless I agree with what you said.
> Are you arguing more about the fact that I overwrite things or just the word order? The first one was legitimate, but the other one...well uhhh... I'm confused.
> ...


Sorry, I thought you said you were striving to be a better writer. Now, I'm confused.

Once I finish up posting this response to the KindleBoards forum, doing so while I eat a fresh sandwich recently delivered from my local Domino's Pizza and having significant trouble wiping my hands and keeping any grease or sauce from getting onto the keys of my keyboard, I plan to think of how I shall explain to those viewing here--either viewing this thread now or at any time in the future, near or distant--what things other than grammar itself make for quality and concise writing, whether it be rearranging a sentence to make it flow better or read better for the reader or if better wording, subject-verb agreement, tense agreement between verbs, or any other thing of the sort can be brought up to improve the writing substantially.

Or, I could have said:

Things other than grammar are important to good writing.


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> Ah, to review something based upon two chapters. As useful as the people who post reviews on Amazon based upon the free sample, in my opinion.


As the author of the novel, The Hambledown Dream, I was a little excited when Parker's review showed up in my Google alerts the other day and I was actually looking forward to reading a review that ran counter to the many positive reviews of my novel.

However when I digested Parker's review and the background of how he came to review my novel, I was more than a little puzzled.

Firstly, I never actually approached Parker in soliciting a review from him - which in and of itself is insignificant - however, he gives the impression via his blog that I actually sent him a copy of my book. Looking back through my records of all the reviewers I have interacted with over the past year, I can find no correspondence with Parker at all, nor do I have any postal receipts from having sent a parcel to him.

Secondly, Parker has clearly based his review on the first two chapters of my novel - which is manifestly disingenuous on his part and it severely damages his credibility as a reviewer. How can anyone hope to gain a honest appraisal of a literary work when the reviewer bases his review on an incomplete reading of said work?

Having come to this thread via a second Google alert in the past 24 hours, I am now beginning to better understand the limitations of Parker as a reviewer. And it's really disappointing. As I said earlier - I was really hoping to read a balanced, constructive critique of my novel because I value both good and not so good reviews. They help me in addressing my own limitations as a writer and become better at my craft.

But it seems that Parker has simply happened upon my novel via Amazon - read the opening chapters which are indeed available as a preview and has gone onto to construct a poorly executed review based on that. I mean, he can't even get the name of my novel right.

If he is ever to be taken seriously as a reviewer, Parker needs to actually read the entire book he plans to review, no matter how bad it might be. That is the role of a reviewer. That he didn't endeavor to do so with The Hambledown Dream makes his review illegitimate and I can't take anything constructive away from it.

Which I really wanted to...


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

deanfromaustralia said:


> As the author of the novel, The Hambledown Dream, I was a little excited when Parker's review showed up in my Google alerts the other day and I was actually looking forward to reading a review that ran counter to the many positive reviews of my novel.
> 
> However when I digested Parker's review and the background of how he came to review my novel, I was more than a little puzzled.
> 
> ...


Ah, thanks for taking the time to clarify that, Dean. I, too, am thankful for Google alerts. I also had my suspicions as to whether or not Parker was receiving these books from authors needing his review services. In fact, at least in your case, he's claimed that you did when in fact it was him looking at Amazon samples. His giving the reason of "it was so bad I couldn't go past the first two chapters" is just an attempt to hide the fact that he actually wasn't selected to review the work and instead is reviewing a sample of the novel.

I think he would do much better to come up with substance to keep his blog filled with new posts, but it's as if he wants to create posts that bash and which contain falsehoods. Of course, that's easier than coming up with useful, needed, original information that helps people. Always has been, too.

There are cases where reviewers cannot finish a book, but they get much farther than the sample. If they get on down to half or three-quarters, at least they made an effort to go the full stretch. Yes, I prefer a review of a book in its entirety, but I don't expect people to torture themselves with it if they just can't go all the way. This is different, though; this is a review of a sample dressed to be a solicited review.

We need a pole, Caribbean music, and someone cheering us on, "How low can you go!"


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> Ah, thanks for taking the time to clarify that, Dean. I, too, am thankful for Google alerts. I also had my suspicions as to whether or not Parker was receiving these books from authors needing his review services. In fact, at least in your case, he's claimed that you did when in fact it was him looking at Amazon samples. His giving the reason of "it was so bad I couldn't go past the first two chapters" is just an attempt to hide the fact that he actually wasn't selected to review the work and instead is reviewing a sample of the novel.
> 
> I think he would do much better to come up with substance to keep his blog filled with new posts, but it's as if he wants to create posts that bash and which contain falsehoods. Of course, that's easier than coming up with useful, needed, original information that helps people. Always has been, too.
> 
> ...


Hah-hah - Indeed!

As I said, I am not at all opposed to critical reviews of my work - in fact, I encourage it because I believe that they can actually be beneficial in terms of sales. I mean, if your title is resplendent with good reviews, a potential buyer will often go "hang on a minute - something's not right here" and most likely move on.

But right from the get-go, something didn't sit right with Parker's review and my suspicions have more or less been validated by this very thread.

Anyhow - it's all a little amusing.

The search for a good, bad review goes on...


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## Michelle Halket (Nov 30, 2010)

So, I'm very new here to the boards - but I just had to say something about this. I am the Creative Director of Dean Mayes' publishing house and this has got to be one of the strangest things I've encountered. Our books get reviewed daily on bookstores, bloggers sites, book reviewers and reader sites. We've had great reviews, bad reviews and everything in between, sometimes all for the same book. The great thing about reviews is that they help writers make better books, especially well-thought out and crafted reviews. In my online travels, I have run across "DNF"s, which basically means the reader thought the book was so bad that they couldn't finish it. It's usually marked with just that - DNF - and that's it. Generally I find book bloggers to be folks of extreme politeness and even have a code of conduct that they lay out for their site. They don't like stomping all over someone's work without good reason. Never before have I seen such a well-constructed review of a DNF book. 

When I started reading this 'review', I thought it was interesting since Dean's book has received very little negative criticism to date. But negative reviews are good for writers and for us and as much as my pride hurts when I read them, I do so with an open mind. It's pretty hard to do so with this one - since the reviewer didn't keep an open mind through at least the first quarter of the book. That kind of review doesn't help any reader decide whether or not to pick up a copy. 

I would really like to know how he got his 'copy' of the book. I keep track of which reviewers our books are sent to and neither Dean nor myself can remember sending him a copy, so I just don't know what this person is up to besides what many of you have pointed out - trying to get their name out there. However, doing so in such a manner and ruining your credibility with the many talented people here who can help you is just plain odd to me.

Anyway, enough brain power and bandwidth has been spent on this topic, so onwards and here's to reading more great reviews by great reviewers.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Michelle Halket said:


> I would really like to know how he got his 'copy' of the book. I keep track of which reviewers our books are sent to and neither Dean nor myself can remember sending him a copy, so I just don't know what this person is up to besides what many of you have pointed out - trying to get their name out there. However, doing so in such a manner and ruining your credibility with the many talented people here who can help you is just plain odd to me.
> 
> Anyway, enough brain power and bandwidth has been spent on this topic, so onwards and here's to reading more great reviews by great reviewers.


Agreed. I find it interesting that Parker, who is normally so apt to bump and promote this thread, is still absent and silent about the matter. Perhaps he thinks it will go away if he doesn't say anything?

But, Dean and Michelle, I wouldn't worry much about it if he doesn't respond. Small potatoes, as they say.


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

Oh for sure - it's very much that


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Michelle Halket said:


> So, I'm very new here to the boards - but I just had to say something about this. I am the Creative Director of Dean Mayes' publishing house and this has got to be one of the strangest things I've encountered. Our books get reviewed daily on bookstores, bloggers sites, book reviewers and reader sites. We've had great reviews, bad reviews and everything in between, sometimes all for the same book. The great thing about reviews is that they help writers make better books, especially well-thought out and crafted reviews. In my online travels, I have run across "DNF"s, which basically means the reader thought the book was so bad that they couldn't finish it. It's usually marked with just that - DNF - and that's it. Generally I find book bloggers to be folks of extreme politeness and even have a code of conduct that they lay out for their site. They don't like stomping all over someone's work without good reason. Never before have I seen such a well-constructed review of a DNF book.
> 
> When I started reading this 'review', I thought it was interesting since Dean's book has received very little negative criticism to date. But negative reviews are good for writers and for us and as much as my pride hurts when I read them, I do so with an open mind. It's pretty hard to do so with this one - since the reviewer didn't keep an open mind through at least the first quarter of the book. That kind of review doesn't help any reader decide whether or not to pick up a copy.
> 
> ...


Michelle--

I just wanted to thank you for joining KindleBoards. KindleBoards is a lively, vital community of Kindle fans and book lovers, some of whom happen to be authors (and professional book reviewers, cover artists and publishers), too! Welcome!

Betsy


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

> Firstly, I never actually approached Parker in soliciting a review from him - which in and of itself is insignificant - however, he gives the impression via his blog that I actually sent him a copy of my book.


You did, and I have an email to prove it.



> Looking back through my records of all the reviewers I have interacted with over the past year, I can find no correspondence with Parker at all, nor do I have any postal receipts from having sent a parcel to him.


What is your email address, I can send you a copy of what you sent me. The message was sent May 23rd.



> Secondly, Parker has clearly based his review on the first two chapters of my novel - which is manifestly disingenuous on his part and it severely damages his credibility as a reviewer.


As you may have noticed, all the good reviews I put on the other books never have notes on them because the basis of my review is not limited; in fact, I make it quite clear that I read the entire novel. Like I wrote in my recent post, (http://theresurrectionseries.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/countering-the-critics-decrying-the-criticism/), I usually do not bother with certain books because they did not make a sufficient hook to lure me into reading their book. This is something an author should do within the first 2,000 words of his or her story. It's not my fault you can't do that; I usually toss the book aside and say 'Thank God' prior to moving onto another one.



> How can anyone hope to gain a honest appraisal of a literary work when the reviewer bases his review on an incomplete reading of said work?


Again, Dean read my post. You'll get the point.



> Having come to this thread via a second Google alert in the past 24 hours, I am now beginning to better understand the limitations of Parker as a reviewer. And it's really disappointing. As I said earlier - I was really hoping to read a balanced, constructive critique of my novel because I value both good and not so good reviews. They help me in addressing my own limitations as a writer and become better at my craft.


I think my post has enough of that. I think you're more upset because I said something you did not like to hear.



> But it seems that Parker has simply happened upon my novel via Amazon - read the opening chapters which are indeed available as a preview and has gone onto to construct a poorly executed review based on that. I mean, he can't even get the name of my novel right.


Like I said Dean, you provided this through an email. I have the email in my records (May 23, 2011) and I can send it to you for examination.



> If he is ever to be taken seriously as a reviewer, Parker needs to actually read the entire book he plans to review, no matter how bad it might be.


I can do just fine without reading the entire thing and still be right about it. Were I to read your book entirely as you say, I would probably engage in some type of argument similarly because what I said is not something 'feasible' or 'satisfying'. Book bloggers usually judge by the blurb whenever someone decides to engage in reading the entire thing prior to actually reading it. To some extent, I would even argue that these same book bloggers would dump the book within a few chapters if he or she finds the work to be poorly executed. You are probably not going to get anyone who will seriously say the opposite of what I have said here on the board i.e. an actual book reviewer.



> That he didn't endeavor to do so with The Hambledown Dream makes his review illegitimate and I can't take anything constructive away from it.


I love how you call my critique 'illegitimate'; it seems to suggest that you seem to know how everyone ought to review the books that are not really worth wasting breath over. Dean, I think I mentioned as a followup response that I don't waste time reading books further in order to come up with a 'legitimate' bad review. I do have the entire copy of your book and I read up to the third chapter (which way beyond what book bloggers, literary agents, editors, and general readers would do with crappy books). What I would like to know is on what grounds are you trying to say that reviews ought to be based on the entire book?

Parker


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> Agreed. I find it interesting that Parker, who is normally so apt to bump and promote this thread, is still absent and silent about the matter. Perhaps he thinks it will go away if he doesn't say anything?
> 
> But, Dean and Michelle, I wouldn't worry much about it if he doesn't respond. Small potatoes, as they say.


Brian,

I don't make an instant response if I tend to be away from the computer doing other things that might be equally time consuming e.g. 'day job, house chores, family outing, etc.' Normally, that would be thought on the topic were I not to receive a response soon.

Parker


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## acellis (Oct 10, 2011)

I read somewhere recently that any review is a good review. A poor one can't really hurt a best seller, and it provides the exposure needed by a new writer.


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

Michelle Halket said:


> I would really like to know how he got his 'copy' of the book. I keep track of which reviewers our books are sent to and neither Dean nor myself can remember sending him a copy, so I just don't know what this person is up to besides what many of you have pointed out - trying to get their name out there. However, doing so in such a manner and ruining your credibility with the many talented people here who can help you is just plain odd to me.
> 
> Anyway, enough brain power and bandwidth has been spent on this topic, so onwards and here's to reading more great reviews by great reviewers.


Just as I said earlier, I got a copy through an email sent by Dean. I can forward you the copy if you want.

Parker


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

acellis said:


> I read somewhere recently that any review is a good review. A poor one can't really hurt a best seller, and it provides the exposure needed by a new writer.


Agreed, and I do not think that Dean or I would be offended by that. It's just that I believe that the first three chapters of the book did not lure me to read the rest of the book.

Parker


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

*Note:* The basis of this review is limited. Although the author has forwarded me their complete manuscript, I have refrained from further reading because the book lacks a particular element in its writing. All grades are based on honest evaluations and will be supplemented by a couple of examples to prove my point.

*St. Peter Killed God

By KJ Kron*​
* Cold Honest Truth:*

KJ, not St. Peter, killed God.
*
OVERALL RATING: C*

I was not exactly sure whether you were intending to commit blasphemy with using the title above or preferred to use the title to make a sale, I could definitely tell that his book needed some work in either one or the other of the two scenarios. The idea does sound interesting at the start with 'St. Peter' to refer to a Roman Catholic priest who did not believe in the Word of God. I have no idea exactly where he was going, but I do think the idea is worth looking at.

*CHARACTERIZATION: B*

I liked the fact that you stuck to the genuine character guideline i.e., not crowding the beginning of the book with a series of people. The greatest part about that is not having the feeling of being confused with remembering who's who in the realm of fiction. Another thing I like about the book is that there are a series of questions immediately raised in the book that are quite legitimate, very similar to the ones I raise in my own. To some degree there is some legitimate verisimilitude to the realities of bishops, popes, priests, and pastors face on a day to day basis. That is something I do like about the book from the limited amount of information I read.

Click here to see the rest of the review: http://theresurrectionseries.wordpress.com/


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

After making dozens of critiques on poorly written books, I began to notice a repeated pattern among the plethora of responses I get from these authors. Even though I specifically explain to them why I would not want to promote their books or how these books are not readable, I still get the same old replies where I began to realize they can fall into one of the following claims:


You can't make a review like that; you didn't read the entire book!
I don't agree; novel styles are subjective. 
Don't you realize that I'm on a limited budget here?
I'm a critically acclaimed author; I don't have to listen to you!
Oh yeah, what credentials do you have under your belt?

And my personal favorite:


What book copies have you sold lately?

Although this does not account for all authors who I have critiqued, the responses are more or less your stereotypical ones received that come in one variation or another. Before I continue to respond to these claims one by one, I want to make a point:

Amateur authors are _easy _to spot.

Click here to read some more: http://theresurrectionseries.wordpress.com/


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

First of all, the term you are looking for is "unprofessional."

Amateur: a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity

The things you are discussing refer more to the person's lack of professionalism than their skill at writing.

_How to spot an unprofessional author trying to pass themselves off as a reviewer:_

*When the so-called  reviewer mentions their own book in the review in a blatant attempt at self promotion.*

One additional note: Anyone who thinks a book should be "graded" on its cover in a review should not be reviewing. A review should be written to help readers make buying decisions. Someone's personal opinion on a cover shouldn't affect that decision. Readers can see the cover for themselves and formulate their own opinions.

Before you go around calling people "amateurs," perhaps you should look in a mirror.


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

I beg to differ.

Parker

_<<I've moved this to the Book Bazaar, Parker, as you are pushing your blog post and directing people to your blog; we ask that blog authors promote their blogs in the Book Bazaar. I'll also be merging this with your existing blog thread. --Betsy/KB mod>>_


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## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

I am torn between humorous images to post here.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Merging this with another blog post...

HAP, since both your commentary and your reviews direct people to your blog, we're going to place them all in your Book Bazaar blog thread.  Note that the seven day rule applies; so if you are going to post entries about reviews and about commentary, you must either do them in the same post or wait seven days between unless someone else posts a reply.

Thanks.

Betsy


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> I don't think that's a wise idea to do here.
> 
> Parker


I beg to differ.


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

foreverjuly said:


> I beg to differ.


Whatever.

Parker


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> First of all, the term you are looking for is "unprofessional."
> 
> Amateur: a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity
> 
> ...


I will at least +1 this. The reviews, the controversy, and all of it really just boils down to a form of blatant self-promotion--the worst kind, too, in my opinion: the "I'm better than you" attempt.


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

While I took the liberty of taking a decent one month vacation, I revisited my book for a second time to find all the major grammatical errors that occur in my work. Although I do take these concerns seriously as a writer, why I did not bother to go back and immediately review my book were because of two reasons: (1) these accusations could be false and (2) part of my policy implicates that the customer needs to show where these errors occurred. It is not very common for me to go back and correct errors, but having heard of a major plethora of 'grammatical mishaps,' I decided to go back and take a look.

Amongst the midst of 'major mistakes' that were pointed out, I found a majority of these problems contained the following mistakes: (1) awkward sentencing and (2) missing words or punctuation. With all the time I am taking to go back and edit these 'serious errors' I came to realize a few different things.

Click Here to Read the rest: http://theresurrectionseries.wordpress.com/


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

While I'm glad you went back and looked at things, and I'd like to here more, I'm one of those people who doesn't click on links to people's blogs.  If you want to tell us about it, do so, but a post that seems like a teaser to direct people to your blog kind of rubs me the wrong way.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

scarlet said:


> While I'm glad you went back and looked at things, and I'd like to here more, I'm one of those people who doesn't click on links to people's blogs. If you want to tell us about it, do so, but a post that seems like a teaser to direct people to your blog kind of rubs me the wrong way.


It usually is just a door to the blog. You may have missed the other thread.



HAParker321 said:


> Although I do take these concerns seriously as a writer, why I did not bother to go back and immediately review my book were because of two reasons: (1) these accusations could be false and (2) part of my policy implicates that the customer needs to show where these errors occurred.


With your propensity for stating reviews and critiques cannot be wrong, I would have thought you would take them seriously every time. After all, your blog tends to be dedicated to speaking about authors unwilling to "accept the truth". As to requiring a reader/customer to show where these errors were found, is it your policy to pay your reader-editors for providing information to improve your for-sale product?


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

BrianKittrell said:


> It usually is just a door to the blog. You may have missed the other thread.


Maybe I missed some other thread, but I guess I'd appreciate a thread like this being titled "link to my blog". Then I won't waste my time reading a teaser.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

scarlet said:


> Maybe I missed some other thread, but I guess I'd appreciate a thread like this being titled "link to my blog". Then I won't waste my time reading a teaser.


lol Agreed.


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

scarlet said:


> While I'm glad you went back and looked at things, and I'd like to here more, I'm one of those people who doesn't click on links to people's blogs. If you want to tell us about it, do so, but a post that seems like a teaser to direct people to your blog kind of rubs me the wrong way.


Well I like being a teaser to some degree and I would not mind telling you about it (if you want more details).

Parker


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

> With your propensity for stating reviews and critiques cannot be wrong, I would have thought you would take them seriously every time.


What are you talking about? Who are they?



> After all, your blog tends to be dedicated to speaking about authors unwilling to "accept the truth".


I'm geared toward exposing authors who fancy themselves as hotshots in the writing world. Granted, I may come off as such, but what I'm really getting at are these two concerns (1) authors who do not take up the time to study writing and (2) authors who cannot handle criticism.



> As to requiring a reader/customer to show where these errors were found, is it your policy to pay your reader-editors for providing information to improve your for-sale product?


I do not pay them for information; the idea is absurd. However, I do accept criticism and suggestions, seeing that these as 'customer feedback.'

Parker

[quote author=Betsy the Quilter]
*Merging this with another blog post...

HAP, since both your commentary and your reviews direct people to your blog, we're going to place them all in your Book Bazaar blog thread. Note that the seven day rule applies; so if you are going to post entries about reviews and about commentary, you must either do them in the same post or wait seven days between unless someone else posts a reply.

Thanks.

Betsy
*[/quote]


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> What are you talking about? Who are they?


I guess "they" would be the ones providing commentary since that was the subject of your post, and "them" would be the complaints/critiques/commentary which say you have errors in your document.



> I'm geared toward exposing authors who fancy themselves as hotshots in the writing world. Granted, I may come off as such, but what I'm really getting at are these two concerns (1) authors who do not take up the time to study writing and (2) authors who cannot handle criticism.


M'kay. And how does one expose another for having a fanciful state of mind or attitude? Anyone with logic and intelligence can deduce for themselves that, without proof, claims are rather empty. Whistle-blowing also has little effect if the whistle-blower has no influence themselves.



> I do not pay them for information; the idea is absurd. However, I do accept criticism and suggestions, seeing that these as 'customer feedback.'


Criticism/feedback is: "Fix the spelling and grammar in your book." or "The whole plot is ridiculous." Yes, that's free. Expecting readers (your words, "policy implicates") to tell you the location of every error is, in my opinion, billing readers to proof your book.

Let's consider it another way. Who edits and proofreads your books prior to publication?


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

I have to ask: what difference does it make if someone thinks he's a hotshot writer? Even if you expose the conceit, what's ultimately gained from it?

Just curious.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

HAParker321 said:


> I do not pay them for information; the idea is absurd.


Actually, a number of textbook authors (and other mediums where accuracy is extremely important) _do_ offer bounties (usually a mailed cheque for $5) per error discovered, as long as you're the first to discover it. For grammar, because the English language is so difficult get _perfect_, because there is substantial disagreement even between language scholars about some grammar points and misconceptions are so very common even among native speakers, I'm disinclined to say that it would be wise for fiction (you'll get into a lot of arguments). For typos, though, I would think a bounty system would be a) great publicity b) a great way to improve your book.

After all, you want your books to be the best they can be, right?

To HAParker:

_Merging this with another blog post...

HAP, since both your commentary and your reviews direct people to your blog, we're going to place them all in your Book Bazaar blog thread. Note that the seven day rule applies; so if you are going to post entries about reviews and about commentary, you must either do them in the same post or wait seven days between unless someone else posts a reply.

Thanks.

Betsy_


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

> M'kay. And how does one expose another for having a fanciful state of mind or attitude? Anyone with logic and intelligence can deduce for themselves that, without proof, claims are rather empty. Whistle-blowing also has little effect if the whistle-blower has no influence themselves.


If I did not have any influence, there would be no reason for people to visiting my blog or commenting etc. (Assuming that you are referring to me.)



> Criticism/feedback is: "Fix the spelling and grammar in your book." or "The whole plot is ridiculous." Yes, that's free. Expecting readers (your words, "policy implicates") to tell you the location of every error is, in my opinion, billing readers to proof your book.


The aim of that policy is to prevent fraud; hence, the reason why the burden of proof lies on the reader. If you want to talk about phony plot lines, perhaps I should suggest that you look elsewhere to label someone's work 'ridiculous.' I have read enough plots and story lines that are far worse than mine.



> Let's consider it another way. Who edits and proofreads your books prior to publication?


Either myself or my editor.

Parker


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

> Actually, a number of textbook authors (and other mediums where accuracy is extremely important) _do_ offer bounties (usually a mailed cheque for $5) per error discovered, as long as you're the first to discover it.


I haven't heard of that kind of bounties, but there is a strong difference between claiming the book is filled with grammatical errors and (not) proving it and claiming the book is filled with grammatical errors and proving it. The criticism I receive is with the people from the former, not the latter.



> For grammar, because the English language is so difficult get _perfect_, because there is substantial disagreement even between language scholars about some grammar points and misconceptions are so very common even among native speakers, I'm disinclined to say that it would be wise for fiction (you'll get into a lot of arguments). For typos, though, I would think a bounty system would be a) great publicity b) a great way to improve your book.


Hence my policy.

Parker


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

HAParker321 said:


> The aim of that policy is to prevent fraud; hence, the reason why the burden of proof lies on the reader. If you want to talk about phony plot lines, perhaps I should suggest that you look elsewhere to label someone's work 'ridiculous.' I have read enough plots and story lines that are far worse than mine.


I'm not calling your plot ridiculous; I've never read the book. Fraud? Really?



HAParker321 said:


> I haven't heard of that kind of bounties, but there is a strong difference between claiming the book is filled with grammatical errors and (not) proving it and claiming the book is filled with grammatical errors and proving it. The criticism I receive is with the people from the former, not the latter.


So, it's basically a gripe over reviews and criticism? For that, there are numerous other threads which end up with basically the same finish: "Can't do anything about it but move on."


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

I really wanted to keep my mouth shut here and refrain from any further comment but, since HA decided to publish his review of my book at it's Amazon entry in recent days, I thought I should clarify a couple of things. 

Firstly, I never sent HA copy of my manuscript, nor did I ever solicit a review from him. I have detailed records of all my correspondence with potential reviewers and HA simply does not feature in that list. If HA is willing to show me evidence of our correspondence, I would happily recant.

Secondly, in order for a reviewer to be taken seriously, then it is incumbent on them to review the entire work, not just the first two or three chapters. That HAP put a great deal of effort into a review of just two chapters - which make a lot of non-specific statements - without reading the entire work renders the review significantly lacking in credibility.

There is a disturbing trend developing in which book bloggers gather free samples of ebooks and craft reviews based on those samples, in order to make a name for themselves. I highly suspect that HAP falls into that category.

It's disappointing because I am more than open to receiving reviews both good and bad - I encourage them - but they must be reviews that are based on the entire work and not wishy-washy assessments based on the free samples that are available of my work.

You've done me a disservice but, more importantly HAP - you've done yourself a disservice.


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

> Firstly, I never sent HA copy of my manuscript, nor did I ever solicit a review from him.


And as previously mentioned; I have the email with your name attached to it. If you want, I can send you a copy of the email with an attachment on the book. I think I may have mentioned this one, two, three times already. Do you really think I would make this up?



> I have detailed records of all my correspondence with potential reviewers and HA simply does not feature in that list. If HA is willing to show me evidence of our correspondence, I would happily recant.


I have forwarded a copy of the email you sent me to this address: [email protected]
Let me know if you did not get the receipt.



> Secondly, in order for a reviewer to be taken seriously, then it is incumbent on them to review the entire work, not just the first two or three chapters.


Who says that I need to read an entire book to tell you that the book ain't all that great?



> That HAP put a great deal of effort into a review of just two chapters - which make a lot of non-specific statements - without reading the entire work renders the review significantly lacking in credibility.


The biggest issue I had with your work is the show vs. telling that came off the first two chapters. I understand your desire not to use dialogue, but the problem here is that your book makes too many blatant statements that I could easily figure our for myself (e.g. Denny's passion for the guitar = playing it for his girlfriend, playing certain pieces, etc.).



> There is a disturbing trend developing in which book bloggers gather free samples of ebooks and craft reviews based on those samples, in order to make a name for themselves. I highly suspect that HAP falls into that category.


I read people's books thoroughly if I find the book to be entirely interesting. There would no other reason for me to praise a book if I did not like them. Usually, I ask for the author's feedback from the book in case there may be issues he or she would like to touch upon prior to publishing. I gave you the same opportunity when I sent you a review of my book. I waited for quite some time and you know what I got? Nothing. So instead of waiting for a response, I assumed the author received the response and was pleased with the results.



> It's disappointing because I am more than open to receiving reviews both good and bad - I encourage them - but they must be reviews that are based on the entire work and not wishy-washy assessments based on the free samples that are available of my work.


Nothing I said was wishy-washy; I said pointed out those problems because I thought there are a couple of issues.

Parker


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

Email received. 

Okay I stand corrected on that point - however at no time did I receive any correspondence with you regarding the review before you published it. The first time I even knew about the review was when it was flagged in a Google alert. 

My point stands mate, you can't be taken seriously as a reviewer based upon a woefully inadequate reading of the material. If you'd read the entire novel and then reviewed it based on that, then your review in my mind, would have legitimacy. That you didn't speaks volumes about your vigour as a reviewer. 

I'll leave this alone now.


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## HAParker321 (May 19, 2011)

> Email received.


Great!



> Okay I stand corrected on that point - however at no time did I receive any correspondence with you regarding the review before you published it. The first time I even knew about the review was when it was flagged in a Google alert.


I am probably going to have to send the reviews twice from now on. You are probably the first case that did not receive either the review or anything of the sort.



> My point stands mate, you can't be taken seriously as a reviewer based upon a woefully inadequate reading of the material.


If the book did not burst into excessive melodrama, I would have definitely kept reading. That is the main point why I did not like the book within the first three chapters, not to mention the excessive 'telling' elements in the book.

Parker


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