# I've been banned!!



## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

So I find this very funny. I got the following when I tried to make a post on the Absoulte Write Water Cooler:



> "You have been banned for the following reason:
> Just get the hell off my site. You're relentlessly snotty, rude, and you're a [expletive] bald-faced liar. I'm done with you.
> 
> Date the ban will be lifted: Never"


What makes this really funny is the the most recent post made to the Ridan thread said this:



> I have to take a moment to post here.
> 
> I just spent the last two days reading from my last post, which was back on #85 or something, right through to here. WOW. I would love to *give Robin a highfive*. This thread should be mandatory reading for all new publishers on how to deal with criticism on Absolutewrite. So many other threads have devolved into something out of a horror flick by unprofessional publishers or their authors. Robin, you've done a *remarkable job keeping your cool under more than a few detractors and critics*, critics who posed questions I, as a writer, appreciated by the way. *Professionalism and diplomacy is clearly not something you're lacking. *


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

Ouch.  That note does sound rather final.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Had you had run-ins before?


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## Katja (Jun 4, 2011)

Any site that treats it's users with a comment like that just proves it's run by a childish admin who doesn't care about the community. Whatever the reason is and even if it was literally true you were a bald-faced liar (I'd feel sorry for you, if your face wasn't bald, but that's just me), that's no way to ban someone.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Do take it as a distinction. Some of the world's greatest writers were banned at some time in their lives.

(I hear Huckleberry Finn keeps getting banned in certain school districts).

On the plus side: at least you know you were banned, and these people were brave enough to inform you. In India, where many of my readers are, I will often be banned by a guy with a big smile who plunges the knife into my back when I turn around.

A famous writer said, "If I am not offending a lot of people, I am not doing my job."


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## Katja (Jun 4, 2011)

@rsullivan9597 - There's lots of messages there. You want the whole thread or? Lots to quote. Or just your latest?


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Just the one that said something like ... "I just spent the last two days reading from my original post #82 and I just wanted tovsay..."

It should be near the end - maybe second from the last as I responded. If there were responses to it afterward -I of course can't see them.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> Had you had run-ins before?


No warnings, no straighten up and fly right. Sure there have been posts where someone said x and I said y but I never berated anyone etc.


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## Katja (Jun 4, 2011)

You apparently should be able to log in after you are not logged in anymore.

"free to tell her she can clear the cookies from her browser (which logs her out), and read just fine, she just can't log in here and post on my bandwidth to badmouth AW, anymore."


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Robin,

I'm sorry to hear you've been banned.  The message from the administrator is indeed harsh (*bookmarking it SoI can find it again in case I need it* ). However, I'm not sure what your intent is here by having a post copied to here.  If you want commiseration abut your banning, you don't need the quote.  If you want to continue that discussion here, or make a case that you were wrongly banned, or something, one post selected by you will not prove your point.  (I'm not saying you were or weren't, just that, well, it falls under the "what happens somewhere else stays somewhere else" rule--it's between you and them.)

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

It has to do with how independent authors are treated on AbsoluteWrite, Betsy. For those of us who have been there, we find this kind of thing humorous. Robin was posting numbers about how independent authors are doing and why we should be taken seriously. It just doesn't go well over there .


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Rovin,
> 
> I'm sorry to hear you've been banned. The message from the administrator is indeed harsh (*bookmarking it SoI can find it again in case I need it* ). However, I'm not sure what your intent is here by having a post copied to here. If you want commiseration abut your banning, you don't need the quote. If you want to continue that discussion here, or make a case that you were wrongly banned, or something, one post selected by you will not prove your point. (I'm not saying you were or weren't, just that, well, it falls under the "what happens somewhere else stays somewhere else" rule--it's between you and them.)
> 
> ...


No agenda - and no I have no intention or desire to make some case or carry some banner. I really was just sharing something that happened with my kindleboard friends. Originally my post was made so that I could get someone just to update my thread so that people didnt think I was ignoring any posts made ther in the future. Which is there now.

The other reason for posting is the irony of the situation as the banning idicates how rude I am and the postr mentioned my thread should be "mandatory reading for how to act properly - it boggles me to se that disparity.


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## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

I'm genuinely puzzled. Am I missing something? I didn't read the whole thread, just the start and the end, but I can't see what you did that might have annoyed the site owner, and other posters were thanking you for your response and its non-confrontational manner, and expressing interest in Ridan. Then a post directing readers to this thread if they want to know why you have been banned.

Darned odd.

Lexi


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## TheSFReader (Jan 20, 2011)

Lexi Revellian said:


> I'm genuinely puzzled. Am I missing something? I didn't read the whole thread, just the start and the end, but I can't see what you did that might have annoyed the site owner, and other posters were thanking you for your response and its non-confrontational manner, and expressing interest in Ridan. Then a post directing readers to this thread if they want to know why you have been banned.
> 
> Darned odd.
> 
> Lexi


The thread that started it all is not the Ridan Publishing one, but the Can I try and traditionally publish after making a kindle/e-pubbing? one.

However, I fond particularly ominous the last one posted on the Ridan Publishing thread :


> ...And I strongly suggest that anything she says anywhere should be taken with not just a grain, but a healthy pinch of salt, to be completely frank.


:throw up:


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

The Ridan Thread was not the thread that got me banned. It is just the thread that I wanted an announcement in that I was banned so that people didn't wonder why I wasn't respoinding. I didn't know the moderator already did that - so I'm glad they did.

The "banning" came as a result of this thread but I don't see anything agregious in it either. Again really not trying to start anything here. Just licking my wounds with my friends.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Wound licking is fine, further copying of quotes from AW is not, as it just brings the disagreement here.  

Betsy


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## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

rsullivan9597 said:


> The Ridan Thread was not the thread that got me banned. It is just the thread that I wanted an announcement in that I was banned so that people didn't wonder why I wasn't respoinding. I didn't know the moderator already did that - so I'm glad they did.
> 
> The "banning" came as a result of this thread but I don't see anything agregious in it either. Again really not trying to start anything here. Just licking my wounds with my friends.


I think I get it now. You disagreed with MacAllister, were staying calm and making sensible points, and others were agreeing with you. She lost her rag and had a hissy fit.

Would that be it?

Lexi


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## TheSFReader (Jan 20, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Wound licking is fine, further copying of quotes from AW is not, as it just brings the disagreement here.
> 
> Betsy


Ooops sorry, won't do again...


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

Their community is poorer for losing you. On the positive side, you have more time to post here now


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

I doubt you will miss them as much as some few will miss you.


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## Lisa Scott (Apr 4, 2011)

Wow.  I can't imagine a circumstance in which you would be a snotty, rude, liar.  I'm sure you had a lot of helpful information to share.  Anyway, we're keeping you.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I have been on many threads on AW where Robin has been contributing. At all times she has kept her cool in the face of extreme provocation from some members. A lot of members there are arch-defenders of trade publishing and there is a small band of members that seem to hover around the self-publishing threads and attack any self-publisher in tandem.

I have done the rounds myself a couple of times. It's getting pretty hostile over there, which is a shame. I find myself spending most of my forum time here, when it used to be the other way around. The self-publishing forum is becoming pretty quiet, as each thread descends into a bickerfest. I can't see that changing.

I just read the thread where Robin was banned (along with another AW member who is considering self-publishing). I can't see what Robin did to anyway justify a ban. In fact, on a number of occasions I have been impressed with her calmness under pressure, when some members were clearly spoiling for a fight and being quite rude, aggressive, and insulting.

Dave


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## Katja (Jun 4, 2011)

@dgaughran - I agree with you. The only rude one there seems to be the admin. :/ Doesn't really give a nice impression of the place.


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## Kenneth Rosenberg (Dec 3, 2010)

Hmmm, interesting.  I just looked over that AW thread, too.  It strikes me that apparently some people just don't want to hear the truth.  Good for you, Robin, for trying.  I guess sometimes it's true what they say; "The truth hurts..."


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## Mel Comley (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry Robin, but I've always found you to be the total opposite. One of the most helpful members of this community.

I'd never heard of that site until the other day but rest assured I won't be going near it.

Glad I'm here.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> Their community is poorer for losing you. On the positive side, you have more time to post here now


Thanks for that - wound feels better - and yes I will have more time for here ;-)


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Welcome to the club.

There is a reason they call that place "Absolute Hate".


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

I just read the thread as well. Clearly, they must all be upset because their local Borders had to close


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Alain Gomez said:


> I just read the thread as well. Clearly, they must all be upset because their local Borders had to close


Which, of course, is our fault.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

As they said in your Ridan thread, your company is doing better than most others at not only author sales but also author retention. Your behavior in the thread in question was far less provocative than the ridiculous insults and accusations leveled at Ridan publishing in which there was systematic intent to discredit you in everything from marketing prowess (often based on website being updated by people that swore up and down that it mattered more than anything else because they were marketing experts) to favoritism based on signatures, to connections to your husband and how it was obvious that he was getting all of your focus in marketing and support or about how the deal with Orbit was showing cracks in your model.

I mean, honestly, it's amazing you lasted as long as you did. The administrator of that board has an agenda, and unfortunately, it has nothing to do with facilitating the open discussion of the state of the publishing industry. Heck, they are intentionally excising the voice of a successful publisher at a gain of... nothing. I've read many of the threads you've been involved in there. Any subjective reader, and I most certainly am in this since I have nothing against the traditional crowd, can see that this action was unwarranted. Unfortunately, I can't say I'm surprised.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Lexi Revellian said:


> I think I get it now. You disagreed with MacAllister, were staying calm and making sensible points, and others were agreeing with you. She lost her rag and had a hissy fit.
> 
> Would that be it?
> 
> Lexi


I want to respect Betsy's wishes and not debat that here - I have my own site where I just posted on this topic we can discuss the details there. I'm just here for support and comfort which is always so welcoming at this site.


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

dgaughran said:


> Which, of course, is our fault.


Most definitely.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Lisa Scott said:


> Wow. I can't imagine a circumstance in which you would be a snotty, rude, liar. I'm sure you had a lot of helpful information to share. Anyway, we're keeping you.


Very sweet sentiment - see....*that's* what I'm talking about - I love this board.


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## JoeMitchell (Jun 6, 2010)

Sorry you got banned, Robin.  I read the post that's linked and it's almost comically hypocritical, and sad.  I'm really glad that Harvey and the mods don't act like that, personally attacking forum members they disagree with 'because they can'.  I'd say you should be happy to be gone from there, but it's still a big loss for that community.  I know you've contributed to this one quite a bit in the past.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Alain Gomez said:


> I just read the thread as well. Clearly, they must all be upset because their local Borders had to close


Thank you Alain for what was literally a LOL moment!


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## KVWitten (Apr 11, 2011)

Bummer.  I feel left out - I want to be banned too!!

I left 'that site' about six weeks ago when it became crystal clear that certain individuals did not approve of self-publishing.  The details aren't important but I no longer felt welcome there.

Luckily I had already found this site - and I'm glad I did.  There's a great bunch of people here and I enjoy being part of it.


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## Philip Chen (Aug 8, 2010)

The only posters that I have banned from The Independent Authors Forum have been purveyors of buxom Russian babes, fake Rolex watchers, and someone who told a racist joke.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I don't usually have much of a temper.  But if you hit me on a day when everything is going wrong...well, all bets are off.  I only posted perhaps three times there because I found it so intimidating.  I went to check on my post a couple of weeks ago and was apalled as to what it had degenerated to.  I..um...voiced an opinion about how perhaps some people should get over themselves and said I wouldn't be back.  I received an email that Mc had answered my post...but I never went back to read it and I never will as I'm sure it will be too upsetting for me.  Perhaps I'm banned too which would make me proud to be in such good company, Robin.  

Selfishly, I'm glad you are back here.  You are a wonderful contributor and are very sharing with your wisdom and your support.  Welcome home.  I'm never leaving kb again for anything.  The mods here are as sweet as the day is long.  There...not so much.


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## Lisa J. Yarde (Jul 15, 2010)

Banning someone over what are essentially differences of opinion and approaches to publishing is a little too Nazi for me. Thanks for reminding why I keep off that post, and a few others


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## TheSFReader (Jan 20, 2011)

Lisa Scott said:


> Wow. I can't imagine a circumstance in which you would be a snotty, rude, liar. I'm sure you had a lot of helpful information to share. Anyway, we're keeping you.


What I see is that she may have inadvertantly stepped on the administrator's sore point (and may I say that a medic may need to check if there's not something rotten there ?), leading to a reflex reaction ... While it may happen (and usually lead to some backpedalling/excuses etc), in this case, the Admin seem to have formed the opinion that they were justified.

What distresses me most is not Robin beeing banned (as some say, it will let her post here more), but that since AW is considered a good source for finding about Publisher's legitimacy, the damage done to Ridan seem to me completely out of proportion!

Well anyway, Robin, I guess they will be missing one of their few anchor points to reality ... While we may gain some


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## Tom Junior (Apr 4, 2011)

Meh.... I'd say just laugh and move along. I've heard nothing about the AW boards, other than Indies aren't really welcome there. I never even bothered to register. The writer's cafe is the nicest place for an "indie" that I've found. You challenged some ideas that people are desperately wanting to hold onto. 

If people want to buy tickets to ride the Hidenburg, what can you do but wish them Bon Voyage?



I'm glad you're here and I enjoy reading your posts!


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

T.J. Dotson said:


> If people want to buy tickets to ride the Hidenburg, what can you do but wish them Bon Voyage?


ROF...love it!!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I've always found you helpful and friendly over here and have found your knowledge and the specific information you're willing to share to be invaluable.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

Revolution is never easy. Those who have power want to stay in power. And make no mistake, there is nothing less than revolution going on in the publishing industry...


> _*rev·o·lu·tion*_
> -noun
> 1. an overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed.
> 2. Sociology . a radical and pervasive change in society and the social structure, especially one made suddenly and often accompanied by violence. Compare social evolution.
> 3. a sudden, complete or marked change in something: the present revolution in church architecture.


Oh, and power to the people!


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

Haters gotta hate. It's just the way it is...
What's really sad is when site admins themselves cannot handle healthy discussions, and administratively squash the opinions of the opposing POV.

I've seen it happen elsewhere.

Some people cannot handle the truth. Be glad to be rid of AW and their venom, Robin. 



KindleChickie said:


> Revolution is never easy. Those who have power want to stay in power. And make no mistake, there is nothing less than revolution going on in the publishing industry...
> Oh, and power to the people!


Right on!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I don't hang out on Absolute Write, so I can't comment on what happened over there.  But I've always found you to be polite and informative here, Robin.  I hope this does no damage to your publishing company.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

It won't do any damage to Robin's publishing company.

Even when people were casting aspersions on her and her work, there were still plenty of others asking when submissions will be open, and asking how she has achieved her phenomenal sales.

Any unbiased reading of the thread will come to the conclusion that Robin is very smart and knows how to publish a book well, and sell it in huge numbers.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Rovin,
> 
> I'm sorry to hear you've been banned. The message from the administrator is indeed harsh (*bookmarking it SoI can find it again in case I need it* ). However, I'm not sure what your intent is here by having a post copied to here. If you want commiseration abut your banning, you don't need the quote. Betsy
> KB Moderator


I don't get what's wrong with her bringing this up, exactly. We talk about the Amazon boards, complain about B&N, bad reviews, Pixel of Ink, agents, publishers, ill treatment of all kinds. So why not Absolute Write? She didn't even malign them, just quoted them.


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## DonnaBurgess (Jan 1, 2011)

@Robin--you rock! I read nearly everything you post because I know I'll learn something.

I used to lurk at AW, back when I was a naive girl & thought the best way to become published was finding an agent. Never posted because, frankly, _[removed by moderator; no name-calling, please]_. Obviously, I was right 

Let them stick to what they're doing over there--bitching about this rejection and that response time, and sitting on finished mss. rather than publishing them, because that's how it was done ten years ago.

I love KB--I've yet to see another group of authors as supportive.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2011)

Congratulations!

I suppose it is a good thing I never post over there.  If they banned you of all people, the site would EXPLODE if I was there.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> I suppose it is a good thing I never post over there. If they banned you of all people, the site would EXPLODE if I was there.


ROF...oh, you soooo have to go there.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Jon Olson said:


> I don't get what's wrong with her bringing this up, exactly. We talk about the Amazon boards, complain about B&N, bad reviews, Pixel of Ink, agents, publishers, ill treatment of all kinds. So why not Absolute Write? She didn't even malign them, just quoted them.


As I said in a later post, licking wounds and commiserating is fine. Asking for advice how to handle a professional situation is fine. However, we have cut off in the past, and will in the future, disagreements from other forums (Facebook and Amazon included) that spill over to KindleBoards. In those cases, what happens outside KindleBoards stays outside KindleBoards.

We prefer to focus here on what makes KindleBoards a great place. My fellow moderators are great, they act professionally (though we're all volunteers) and the membership is great. We have a "KindleBoards way" which does not involve bashing outsiders, and I like to keep it that way. Thanks to all of you for keeping this discussion as positive as it has been.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> I suppose it is a good thing I never post over there. If they banned you of all people, the site would EXPLODE if I was there.


This *might* be a great Pay-Per-View opportunity though Julie.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> We prefer to focus here on what makes KindleBoards a great place. My fellow moderators are great, they act professionally (though we're all volunteers) and the membership is great. We have a "KindleBoards way" which does not involve bashing outsiders, and I like to keep it that way. Thanks to all of you for keeping this discussion as positive as it has been.


And practically speaking, when you bash another board, you risk a board war, which is damaging to both parties. I think this is a wise policy.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

I've always appreciated your info and your attitude, Robin, whether here, at AW, or on your own site. Though I'm not up-to-date on the most recent AW threads (busy gardening all weekend  ), you've always shown grace under pressure there in every thread I've read, and the reaction to you by some folks always seemed over-the-top.

David's right that there is a group who hangs around the self-pub forums there specifically to slam self-publishing, which is too bad. Maybe that's true on other boards as well, but obviously not this one. KB is the best place to get good information on self-publishing, and you know we'll always be happy to see you here.


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## Doug DePew (Mar 26, 2011)

Harper Alibeck said:


> Sometimes being calm and reasonable when conducting a rational debate/discussion is viewed as a threat by people who have a rigid stake in an idea.


Calm and reasonable is the biggest threat to many people.


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## Romi (Apr 4, 2011)

Glad to hear this thread has been positive overall, since AW IS a great place for people with a certain kind of goal; it's just a different goal from the one a lot of us have over here...I only speak for myself. Besides all of that, you can still always go there to get your work critiqued, regardless of publication paths.

I think what happens on "the other board" is that a lot of writers are wading through the background checks, and trying to figure out ALL of their options, including self-published. In these instances, it would be great to always have someone from the "self-published" side speak to all the potential successes and realities, which the "on the fence" writers may not be aware of.

Unfortunately, different messageboards have different views, and providing ALL the facts can have a negative result. It's not ideal, but all you can do is trust that writers will do enough research in multiple places, to figure out things on their own. They'll survive without our input.

I used to be regular poster on AW before I dropped my agent. Haven't posted there since, and I'm totally cool with that. I build my tribes around my views and beliefs...views change...tribes change


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## kathieshoop (Feb 18, 2011)

Harsh is right! I haven't been over there to read, but it sounds strange to me. I see what you write on other blogs and I can't say I've ever even characterized your comments as coming across as irritated or prickly, let alone rude.  Well, one less thing to do for you! Revel in it.


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## Daisy Dexter Dobbs (Mar 1, 2011)

I suppose I'm in the minority because I've never visited or read/posted anything at AW. So when I first read your post, Robin, I thought it was a joke. I was waiting for the punchline...but there wasn't one. I'm absolutely floored by what happened and by that person's immaturity and rudeness. I honestly don't know what to say, other than I'm sorry you had to go through that.


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## Tom Junior (Apr 4, 2011)

jnfr said:


> David's right that there is a group who hangs around the self-pub forums there specifically to slam self-publishing, which is too bad. Maybe that's true on other boards as well, but obviously not this one. KB is the best place to get good information on self-publishing, and you know we'll always be happy to see you here.


Which is why I only post here. I've lurked around a few boards, even the Amazon ones and I didn't like what I saw there. I like it here, because the people are nice and the moderators keep things orderly.

Our self-pubbing discussions are always positive and focus on building people's confidence. Its just not true elsewhere. So just label me a Kindle Boards only kind of guy.


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## Lynn Mixon (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm sorry you've been treated so shabbily, Robin. 

I've never been a member on the other board, mainly because of the reputation they've earned about dealing with opinions that don't agree with their worldview. With a feedback loop like that, they've become blind to real world events in publishing. I feel sorry for the newer writers that accept their point of view as gospel. Many of them are in for a rude shock.

Chin up. We still love you.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> I suppose it is a good thing I never post over there. If they banned you of all people, the site would EXPLODE if I was there.


Another LOL moment - thanks for that Julie!!


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Daisy Dexter Dobbs said:


> I suppose I'm in the minority because I've never visited or read/posted anything at AW. So when I first read your post, Robin, I thought it was a joke. I was waiting for the punchline...but there wasn't one. I'm absolutely floored by what happened and by that person's immaturity and rudeness. I honestly don't know what to say, other than I'm sorry you had to go through that.


Ditto. Never been there either - and now I don't think I ever will


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## RachelAstor (Apr 2, 2011)

Oh my word, that seems... uncalled for.


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

It really is kind of scary over there, isn't it? I have an account but I've never posted.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Unbelievable. That they'd ban Robin _and_ Kevin O. McLaughlin at the same time speaks volumes.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I never even created an account there. I've read a few posts, but I just had this feeling of danger the whole time when tempted to post. It's certainly not self-pub friendly.

Sorry that it happened to you, though. It always seemed like you enjoyed the back-and-forth with the others over there.


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

My only guess is the person misread what  you posted.  Perhaps missing the word "not" in that last sentence.  You gotta be careful with the people who just skim those posts.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> Their community is poorer for losing you.


This is the bottom line. It's a shame that they didnt see your contributions as positive. I've always gone to AW in search of information and intelligent debate. Whether intentional or not, they are quashing debate and discussion. That only makes their forum weaker and less valuable.


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

This is just wrong. I mean the admin's outrageously rude message. While the fact of getting banned can be discussed and argued whether it was justified or not (for the record, I think it was not), the cussing out message it wrong, no matter how you look at it. It's enough for me to form a very clear opinion about the site owner.


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## SeanBlack (May 13, 2010)

Very rude and completely uncalled for. Robin, you are a class act.

The facts are that publishing is changing rapidly and a lot of the old rules just don't apply anymore. Shouting down someone who is saying that writers have options they didn't have before is plain silly.


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## Lexus Luke (Feb 5, 2011)

Ahahahaha. Not at you, Robin. I've been kicked out of bars more professionally than that.

My first thought was to avoid that forum (I'd never heard of it). Then, I thought, what would happen if successful indies start posting their sales/profit numbers there. 

Hmmmm. I'll bookmark it and will when my debut novel sells like hotcakes.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm sure you were never rude--you've always been polite and helpful over here on KB, and I've missed your posts.

It's their loss.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I hang out there quite a bit. You have to understand that it's a site with a lot of people who have been on there for 5 years or more, which means they have a fixed view of the definition of "publishing." (They're by no means the only ones) There are some very nice people on there who are very helpful as far as writing mechanics go, but that's predominantly what that forum is geared toward. If I was looking for advice about what to do with my MS once it's finished, which I'm starting to do as I near completion, then I'd research a bunch of resources, and use AW sparingly. 

As far as you being condescending and rude, I've been a hell of a lot more condescending and rude on there than you ever thought of being, so there's probably more to it. Maybe they think you're using the board to promote your site too much or something. I dunno.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Unbelievable. That they'd ban Robin _and_ Kevin O. McLaughlin at the same time speaks volumes.


Thanks, Moses. =)

Yeah, I got banned as well, same thread, same reason. A little less profanity used in my ban notice. I figure I'm in good company, getting banned with Robin.

Mind if I come over here to hang out more often? I think I'd really enjoy just chatting in a non-hostile environment.


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## EGranfors (Mar 18, 2011)

The world, especially the virtual world, is full of crazies. I don't get it (the banning) but I'd never go back, that's for sure.


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## John Hartness (Aug 3, 2009)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Mind if I come over here to hang out more often? I think I'd really enjoy just chatting in a non-hostile environment.


We'd all love to have you, Kevin. We actually enjoy reasoned debate here, and can usually keep ourselves calm while we talk about things.

I just read most of that thread and was really happy that the debate over self-pubbing I had with a bunch of people at Magical Words last week stayed very calm and polite, and I even got the chance to share a beer with most of those folks this weekend! That's how people who disagree are supposed to behave - like adults, with ADULT BEVERAGES! 

Either way, sorry you guys got banned, but glad you'll be around here more often.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Thanks, Moses. =)
> 
> Yeah, I got banned as well, same thread, same reason. A little less profanity used in my ban notice. I figure I'm in good company, getting banned with Robin.
> 
> Mind if I come over here to hang out more often? I think I'd really enjoy just chatting in a non-hostile environment.


Kevin,

Welcome back to KindleBoards. This is a kindler gentler Internet forum. We're pretty active as moderators, but we allow spirited discussion as long as it doesn't violate Forum Decorum and generally stays civil. Looking forward to more of your posts!

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I think I'd really enjoy just chatting in a non-hostile environment.


That's exactly what I hang around here for! It's a nice place just to chat.


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## TheSFReader (Jan 20, 2011)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Yeah, I got banned as well, same thread, same reason. A little less profanity used in my ban notice. I figure I'm in good company, getting banned with Robin.
> 
> Mind if I come over here to hang out more often? I think I'd really enjoy just chatting in a non-hostile environment.


Definitely good company.
Please take a seat, a glass of your favorite "ADULT BEVERAGE" (see above) and discover how an environment can be friendly... 
As for non-hostile, it seems you haven't seen any of the shark freenzy threads or the David's pictures.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2011)

Banned! what a sweet musical word to my ears. 

Back when the Internet and the world as we know it were new, many so-called critique sites opened up. They usually were operated by brain-dead admins, who, btw, hated being called brain-dead. That was one banning of mine. Then a famous movie producer opened a site that included some neat stuff for short stories, novellas and flash fiction. There were private offices, cliques, message boards with food fights, and an overwhelming clog of liberal--no make that radical liberal, socialist, etc.--writers. A whisper of PLAGIARISM! went around and I was thought to be Manson revisited and a baby killer to boot. Second banning. Zoetrope, or as I called it, Zoetripe. I'm told by a few old friends that they still see the plagiarist in every dark corner there. Hilarious.

There was a particularly nasty site back then called Scrawl, run by pissed off misogynists in several incarnations. Don Rickles would have been a boy scout on that site. Third banning. Oh yeah, on FB i've been kicked off of a couple of pages for simply poking at spam or putting up smartass posts. To me being banned fits the profile of a writer who eschews the traditional publishing racket. I self published my first book back in 2001 before there were ebooks. If there were I hadn't heard of them then. 

After reading what your admin wrote, I'd say that place is very much like some of the old sites that were biased, dismissive, and unfriendly--especially if you were conservative or republican or independent. Or, simply outspoken. So I'm proud of my bannings, though I make every attempt at my advanced age to be cordial to all. I have no time or desire to dive into a hornet's nest--there's no honey in there. 

Of course, I'm hardboiled.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Unbelievable. That they'd ban Robin _and_ Kevin O. McLaughlin at the same time speaks volumes.


I missed that. Why did they ban McLaughlin?

It is interesting how vociferous many are on that board in denouncing self-publishing. Seems more like an emotional reaction than well-reasoned response.


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## horse_girl (Apr 9, 2010)

Sorry to hear about the banning, but maybe it happened for a good reason (trying to stay positive)--you get to spend more time here, where people are actually civil.

I hardly go on AW anymore. One of the loudest speakers against self-pubbing is someone who used to have books with the same small publisher I did and encouraged me to leave. It was the best thing I did--going the self-pub route, but she went with a different small publisher, one I rejected because of their rights grab in their contract, because their contract changed after I had the guts to say something on AW and get Victoria Strauss's help. The small publisher hardly changed, but the author "friend" (tongue firmly planted in cheek) turned savage on self-publishing.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but I wanted to emphasize the point others have made about AW--they are great for learning how to write and to work in the legacy system, but members there turn their noses up at self-publishers. They can be downright vicious of any self-publishing success, but it's all a matter of insecurity and being in so deep in working a system of publishing in so much flux that they can't see the way out. Self-publishing is scary, and there is jealousy about those who make it work, because they don't know how. Sometimes it's easier to damn something you don't understand than to try to understand it and make it work for you too.

I hardly go there anymore, because I would be banned myself, I'm sure. At some point, I would begin arguing, and those who will not listen are not worth my time.

Now that I've said all that, those who have been banned, you're better off here on KB. It's a much friendlier place for writers of all backgrounds.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Having read Mike's post, I just wanted to say that if anyone WANTS to be banned so they can wear it like a badge of honor, I'm here for them.  PM me.


Betsy


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Having read Mike's post, I just wanted to say that if anyone WANTS to be banned so they can wear it like a badge of honor, I'm here for them. PM me.
> 
> 
> Betsy


Can we nominate people?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Having read Mike's post, I just wanted to say that if anyone WANTS to be banned so they can wear it like a badge of honor, I'm here for them. PM me.
> 
> 
> Betsy


You should have a walk of shame for anyone that gets banned like the cardinals at the Vatican. Maybe flip the offender's screen around so it's like we're turning our backs to them.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Monique said:


> Can we nominate people?


Um, no.  Behave yourself, Monique, I'm itching to use my new moderator's taser. 











vrabinec said:


> You should have a walk of shame for anyone that gets banned like the cardinals at the Vatican. Maybe flip the offender's screen around so it's like we're turning our backs to them.


I'll take it up in the smoke filled Admin rooms... 

Betsy


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Pretty!


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Um, no.  Behave yourself, Monique, I'm itching to use my new moderator's taser.


I'm willing to endure a tazing to nominate. Gotta suffer for your art, right?

*starts accepting bribes for the first nomination*


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)




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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Asher MacDonald said:


> I missed that. Why did they ban McLaughlin?
> 
> It is interesting how vociferous many are on that board in denouncing self-publishing. Seems more like an emotional reaction than well-reasoned response.


You can see it in the same thread where Robin got banned. I'm trying to hold my tongue.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> You can see it in the same thread where Robin got banned. I'm trying to hold my tongue.


Yeah, I saw Kevin's post after I posted in reply to yours.

It's funny. They have a rule that you can't refer to traditional publishing as traditional publishing or legacy publishing. You have to refer to it as "trade publishing." They seem a bit touchy over there.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

(Shaking off taser) OW! BETSY, that thing STINGS! OWWW!!!


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Good Heavens! I read the thread where they were saying a "self-published book" couldn't be sold to a publisher.  Are they crackers?  And rude.  I wouldn't set foot in that place.  As far as I'm concerned, it's a badge of honor to have been banned from there.


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## Ryne Billings (May 15, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Um, no.  Behave yourself, Monique, I'm itching to use my new moderator's taser.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm... I've been hit with the ban hammer on one site. A mod taser might be fun.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

So - the next thread I see when I come back here is Michael Wallace being courted by a big publisher.  

I'm glad the experts over at Absolutely er, Not so Write?  will see that the popular view there may have to be tweaked.  But I doubt it.  For the most part, the people on that one thread were AbsolutelyEntrenched.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Half-Orc said:


> I'm willing to endure a tazing to nominate. Gotta suffer for your art, right?
> 
> *starts accepting bribes for the first nomination*


For you, David, it's the Zardoz-Daglish hybrid photo. Careful...

Betsy


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Thanks, Moses. =)
> 
> Yeah, I got banned as well, same thread, same reason. A little less profanity used in my ban notice. I figure I'm in good company, getting banned with Robin.
> 
> Mind if I come over here to hang out more often? I think I'd really enjoy just chatting in a non-hostile environment.


Kevin, I just saw your reasonable and intelligent post at Absolutely Whatever. I saw "banned" underneath your name. Then I read subsequent posts from some very angry and rude people. So my question is, were you banned because you were too polite?


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## Retired (May 6, 2011)

Robin, {{hugs}}. I always enjoy reading what you have to say, and I'm always moved that you'd take so much time to help indie writers figure out this business. That or you type faster than Superman, which is just about as admirable.  And if you have more time to say it here? Their loss, our gain.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> Yeah, I saw Kevin's post after I posted in reply to yours.
> 
> It's funny. They have a rule that you can't refer to traditional publishing as traditional publishing or legacy publishing. You have to refer to it as "trade publishing." They seem a bit touchy over there.


Well, the term "traditional publishing" really is an invented term first used by vanity presses to attract marks...er...I mean customers. It is verbage that is unique to self publishers. In fact, I am often leery of any publisher that insists that he/she is a "traditional" publisher, as it usually means the person is a self-publisher himself and has all sorts of strange ideas about what a "traditional" publisher does.

I use the term in writer forums when talking to indies, because it is part of the indie jargon, but I don't use it when talking to folks in the industry.


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## BarbraAnnino (Jan 27, 2011)

Lexus Luke said:


> I've been kicked out of bars more professionally than that.


Love this.

The blog she owns here http://theselfpublishingreview.blogspot.com/ pretty much sums up her viewpoint on self-pubbing.

_"What's the catch? I'm an editor, and expect published books to be polished. I'm going to count all the errors I find in spelling, punctuation and grammar and when I reach fifteen I'm going to stop reading. I'll work my way through up to five pages of boring prose or bad writing before I give up. And I'll list on this blog every single book I'm sent, including the books I've not completed, along with how far I got through each one."_

I think people like this might benefit from creating rather than destroying what others have created. You can practically here the diabolical laugh. No thanks, wackadoodle.


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## Andre Jute (Dec 18, 2010)

By golly, some people do get pompously self-important. I find it highly significant, and most amusing, that the less worthwhile they are, the less they themselves produce, the more likely they are to ban those who disagree with them.

A writer without enemies isn't much intellectual chop.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2011)

BarbraAnnino said:


> Love this.
> 
> The blog she owns here http://theselfpublishingreview.blogspot.com/ pretty much sums up her viewpoint on self-pubbing.
> 
> _"What's the catch? I'm an editor, and expect published books to be polished. I'm going to count all the errors I find in spelling, punctuation and grammar and when I reach fifteen I'm going to stop reading. I'll work my way through up to five pages of boring prose or bad writing before I give up. And I'll list on this blog every single book I'm sent, including the books I've not completed, along with how far I got through each one."_


Wait, is she an editor, or a proofreader? because all of the editors I know don't waste their time counting typos. They are normally too busy looking at theme, form, characterization, plot, continuity, etc.

The next time someone calls me unsupportive of indies, I'm going to reference this site and say "No, I'm just evil. THIS is unsupportive. See the difference?"


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Thanks, Moses. =)
> 
> Yeah, I got banned as well, same thread, same reason. A little less profanity used in my ban notice. I figure I'm in good company, getting banned with Robin.
> 
> Mind if I come over here to hang out more often? I think I'd really enjoy just chatting in a non-hostile environment.


By all means Kevin - come on over - someone will deliver root beer floats soon.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Julie, if you do go on a wild ride at AW one week (or day, however long they allow you to), please send me a message letting me know where I can find the happy fun time. For some reason, I'm giggling just thinking about it !


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

rsullivan9597 said:


> So I find this very funny. I got the following when I tried to make a post on the Absoulte Write Water Cooler:
> 
> What makes this really funny is the the most recent post made to the Ridan thread said this:


Um, it's possible the banning was a reference to something else, or maybe it was an accident, and someone whose name was beside yours on the user list was supposed to be banned. Just a thought.

ETA: (after seeing others who've been banned) What the HUH


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2011)

Dang, that's insane.  I've always loved your blog and your comments, Robin--your analysis has always been very helpful.

It's like the publishing industry has turned into the wild west, complete with lynch mobs and posses, inbred communities, the gold rush to ebooks, and corporate executives railroading their way over honest, hardworking writers who just want their own plot of land...


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## PMartelly (May 1, 2011)

Robin, you have always been one of the most informative posters on here... and I felt that way even when I was a lurker. 
I'm sorry you were banned. But I would like to say that I think it's awesome that you held to your beliefs and shared them. Many people in this thread have said that they don't post on AW because of the unfriendly environment. Some of us haven't even signed up. You, however, were brave enough to contribute to the discussion, even if it meant you would be banned! I know I speak for all of us when I say that we appreciate your contributions to this community :]

That said, it's truly terrible to see things turn out this way. I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about indies/self-publishers. "Traditional publishing" and "indie/self-publishing" are essentially different ways of accomplishing the same goal -- to do what you love while trying to earn an income/extra income. Where's the fire?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"corporate executives railroading their way over honest, hardworking writers who just want their own plot of land..."_

I got my 70% plot.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I got my 70% plot.


For now...


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _"corporate executives railroading their way over honest, hardworking writers who just want their own plot of land..."_
> 
> I got my 70% plot.


Heh. You're more like a sharecropper. We all are.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well, the term "traditional publishing" really is an invented term first used by vanity presses to attract marks...er...I mean customers. It is verbage that is unique to self publishers. In fact, I am often leery of any publisher that insists that he/she is a "traditional" publisher, as it usually means the person is a self-publisher himself and has all sorts of strange ideas about what a "traditional" publisher does.
> 
> I use the term in writer forums when talking to indies, because it is part of the indie jargon, but I don't use it when talking to folks in the industry.


Same with me. Here, I refer to it as "traditional" publishing only because that's what people here call it. However, anywhere else, it's trade publishing...because that's what it is.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Heh. You're more like a sharecropper. We all are."_

Sharecroppers get 25% of net.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Whoa. Seemed like a lively discussion and not anything anyone should be banned over. Robin, I'm newish around here but I follow your blog and have learned quite a bit from your posts these last few months. Thanks for the information you share with us all. 

I would imagine people who are content in their traditional publishing don't have much incentive to research what is really going on with self-publishing at the moment. It's a shame even when they are presented with information from those who have been there are are doing it, they still are dismissing the information based on what was and not was is.


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

Asher MacDonald said:


> It is interesting how vociferous many are on that board in denouncing self-publishing. Seems more like an emotional reaction than well-reasoned response.


Yes, that's my gut reaction, too, Asher. Which is why I don't bother to expend energy arguing with those who spew venom about self-publishing. I truly believe the best response is to simply write more and better books for those who matter most: the readers.

Readers will decide what is worth reading. If the books they choose to read come from non-traditional sources (indie authors), in the end that's all that will matter.


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## Lexus Luke (Feb 5, 2011)

BarbraAnnino said:


> Love this.
> 
> The blog she owns here http://theselfpublishingreview.blogspot.com/ pretty much sums up her viewpoint on self-pubbing.
> 
> ...


Oh no. Why would any self-published author send an already biased anti-self-pub wackadoodle a copy? Thanks for the info.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

SeanBlack said:


> Very rude and completely uncalled for. Robin, you are a class act.
> 
> The facts are that publishing is changing rapidly and a lot of the old rules just don't apply anymore. Shouting down someone who is saying that writers have options they didn't have before is plain silly.


Off-topic but your covers are bloody excellent.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks guys for all the wonderful support. Especially those that mention the information I give out is helpful. I'm also surprised that more than a few of you read my blog.  Sometimes you're not sure if someting is worth the effort but it would appear that it is - so I'll keep it going.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

rsullivan9597 said:


> Thanks guys for all the wonderful support. Especially those that mention the information I give out is helpful. I'm also surprised that more than a few of you read my blog. Sometimes you're not sure if someting is worth the effort but it would appear that it is - so I'll keep it going.


You have been sharing your experiences so generously and your post are always helpful (yes, I read your blog, too), so I hope you will continue 'keep going' and that you won't be discouraged by a few narrow-minded people, who want to continue clinging to their obsolete believes -- if they want to be left behind, there's no point in trying to push them forward. But it's sad how the thing played out, it was especially disappointing to see the owner-of-the-site's behavior/reaction -- childish and rude, not professional at all.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Wait, is she an editor, or a proofreader? because all of the editors I know don't waste their time counting typos. They are normally too busy looking at theme, form, characterization, plot, continuity, etc.


Exactly!


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

I get very little "free time" - between child and day job and cat and writing and general household/bodily maintenance, I have to select my rec activities carefully. I have found no reason to stay at forums where I am constantly afraid of being dog piled or banned, or where I have to bite my tongue the entire time. I have never been banned - I don't hang around that long at places where the wind blows too hot or cold for me. Forum posts are free words I could have used elsewhere, so if I don't find a forum productive, instructive or entertaining, I walk away. 

That having been said, a number of forums are pretty clear on their valuing of traditionals, agents and advances, so I can't fault them for me not being a good fit there - we just hold different values, so I tend to walk away. Or just lurk in the occasional useful thread. Life is too important to spend biting one's tongue or fighting the wind, in my opinion.

Sorry you got banned, though, Robin. This place seems rather nice, anyway.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2011)

rexjameson said:


> *****, if you do go on a wild ride at AW one week (or day, however long they allow you to), please send me a message letting me know where I can find the happy fun time. For some reason, I'm giggling just thinking about it !


I thought about it, but then decided against it.

1. While I have strong opinions, I prefer to share them with people that might actually benefit from hearing them (even if they don't always agree)
2. It would take away from my alloted time at KB   
3. After searching the forums, apparently they actually like me there (well, at least they like the _Bards and Sages Quarterly_ because I pay on time ).

So it would probably be counter-productive, even if it would be amusing.

Besides, I've already been banned from a forum (Lulu.com) for doing a lot worst than Robin. So anything after that would seem anticlimatic.


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## BarbraAnnino (Jan 27, 2011)

Carradee said:


> Um, it's possible the banning was a reference to something else, or maybe it was an accident, and someone whose name was beside yours on the user list was supposed to be banned. Just a thought.
> 
> ETA: (after seeing others who've been banned) What the HUH


She very publicly and specifically stated Robin and Kevin were banned, so no mistake. That message Robin received is available for all to read. http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6217778#post6217778 I'm not even a member and I can read it.

Class act.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Well, Robin, are your wounds linked yet?


I think a good twenty-four plus hours of hugs and commiseration should have helped your recovery considerably.    At this point, I think there are lots of other good conversations going on here on KindleBoards, in and out of the Writers' Cafe.  I think everyone should move on and find one.  I know there's a bunch of critique requests out there. Those are always exciting.  

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

elalond said:


> You have been sharing your experiences so generously and your post are always helpful (yes, I read your blog, too), so I hope you will continue 'keep going' and that you won't be discouraged by a few narrow-minded people, who want to continue clinging to their obsolete believes -- if they want to be left behind, there's no point in trying to push them forward. But it's sad how the thing played out, it was especially disappointing to see the owner-of-the-site's behavior/reaction -- childish and rude, not professional at all.


Childish and rude certainly come to mind - another irony in this is a post to my blog that said....



> I am extremely disapointed at the *childish * way you have acted over this.
> 
> I read the thread, and not only were you *rude and obnoxious*, disrespectful of anyone who had an opinion that didn't match yours, you frequently seem to pull figures out of your ass, citing them as fact, but you also came across as a very unprofessional and immature person to deal with.
> 
> In addition to your frequent rants and tantrums, you also, in this very post, INCORRECTLY quoted the moderator who banned you.


Made we wonder if they read the same post I did


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## HelenHanson (Sep 13, 2010)

We are defined in part by our enemies.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Don't go there and say you are e-published when you have self-published an ebook. You're poking the bear in the eye with a sharp stick if you do so.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

As Betsy said. . .it's probably time to move on. . . . .

Have you read the Crazy Insane Purse Thread? Shopping always makes me feel better. 

Ann
KB Moderator


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