# A Writing Book Recommendation



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Libbie Hawker, who posts here as ElHawk, has a great new writing book out that I highly recommend, Take Off Your Pants!: Outline Your Books for Faster, Better Writing. I've written a gazillion books by now, and one would think that I've either learned all of the applicable lessons or I'm simply incapable of picking them up. But I definitely snagged some useful tips, and if you're a newer writer, this book is gold. Cheap gold, too! $2.99 as of this post.


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## Z. Rider (Aug 15, 2014)

Purchased and cracked open already. I literally just read K.M. Weiland's Outlining Your Novel a couple weeks ago and found it disappointing. I'm optimistic about Libbie's book after reading the Look Inside, though. (At the very least, she's gotten me excited to find out what else she has to say.)


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## Genre Hoarder (Oct 4, 2014)

Thank you for the link! I've heard Libbie talk about her outlining process in podcast interviews. It's nice to have it in a book I could easily refer back to.


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## KGGiarratano (Aug 14, 2013)

I picked up a copy. I'm always looking for ways to improve my "system."


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## Z. Rider (Aug 15, 2014)

I'm halfway through the book now, and at $2.99 it was a _steal_. Love it.


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## Randall Boleyn (Mar 8, 2012)

ElHawk's blurb advise video was so spot-on, how can one resist such a suggestion as her title. I am lost and blocked with pantsing a part two of series. I hope Libbie's system is the direction I need. I just bought her book, (thanks Michael) am now shutting down the Kboards, and hoping to find my way to begin writing again.


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## Simply Unbound (Mar 7, 2015)

This looks like just what I need.

Copy bought.


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## nonbreaking space (Dec 11, 2014)

i picked it up because why not?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

It's really good! I highly recommend it.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks for the recco, Michael. I picked it up this morning and finished it a few minutes ago. Classic advice with a fresh new perspective. I emailed Libbie to tell her that I had to take a break mid-read to jot down some notes on my WIP because her advice got me thinking about a couple fresh angles on characters and linking the protag to the antag and also on beefing up the 'cymbal crashes'. Great stuff for a few bucks.


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## Z. Rider (Aug 15, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> I emailed Libbie


I did too. My first ever writing-guide fanmail gush.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I picked this up a few days ago, but have been too busy to crack it open. Thanks for the rec. I'll check it out tonight.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks, guys! I'm really glad you've enjoyed the book so far. And super-happy so many of you are finding it useful.

I'll continue to work on these short how-to books for authors until I've exhausted all my useful information (which should be soon, ha ha.) For interested parties, the next one will be How to Write Historical Fiction that Sells, which tells my methods for analyzing the current HF market, picking subjects likely to do well with audiences, and the insights I've cobbled together about what HF readers are *really* after. I expect it to be out in...oh, probably early June.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

What I found interesting about this book, Libbie, is that it can be used as little or as much as one wants. Your system works in such a way that a pantser can still use it. They might not do the chapter parts that you talk about at the end, but they can 100% use the initial 5 step (if I recall) summary. Even that provides a bit of overall focus to help pantsing go faster and smoother.


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## KReadnour (Jul 8, 2014)

Thanks Michael for posting this information. I already found the book useful!  Thanks ElHawk for sharing this useful technique!! I just never know what new information I'll learn when I stalk this board!! Amazing.


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## Keith Rowland (May 20, 2014)

Thanks for the link, just downloaded it now hopefully make a start on reading it tonight


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> What I found interesting about this book, Libbie, is that it can be used as little or as much as one wants. Your system works in such a way that a pantser can still use it. They might not do the chapter parts that you talk about at the end, but they can 100% use the initial 5 step (if I recall) summary. Even that provides a bit of overall focus to help pantsing go faster and smoother.


Yes -- there are definitely parts where you can adapt it to be pants-friendly. When I feel like pantsing, I leave out the "beat" portion of the outline and just use the steps that come before as a very rough guide, and let my brain go crazy to fill in all the blanks.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> Yes -- there are definitely parts where you can adapt it to be pants-friendly. When I feel like pantsing, I leave out the "beat" portion of the outline and just use the steps that come before as a very rough guide, and let my brain go crazy to fill in all the blanks.


It makes for a multi-purpose book, which I really like.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Will check it out. I'm always interested in ways to outline more effectively.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Carol (was Dara) said:


> Will check it out. I'm always interested in ways to outline more effectively.


I am writing a short story as a bonus at the end of a novel coming out this year, so I tried the first part of Libbie's book. I just did the first 5 step stage (character, goal, etc) and then trimmed her brainstorm outline to just a couple of things. It took 20 minutes - I spend more time thinking about how best to trim her outline for a short story than actually brainstorming the short story - and I have a solid outline for a 5000 words short story that I can now bang out in a day when I have the time.

Like, it's soooooo versatile. I'm in love.


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## Scott_SA (Jan 31, 2015)

I'm about halfway through it, and it's helping me with the story I'm currently planning.

Although I am a little stuck on the character arc. I'm working on a noir-ish sci-fi story, and I usually have old Bogart movies playing in the back of my mind. In many of his movies, the protagonist doesn't seem to change or improve. He just manages to get through the current problem. I'm not sure if this is a genre thing, or if there's something that just hasn't "clicked" in my brain yet.


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## Simply Unbound (Mar 7, 2015)

Scott_SA said:


> I'm about halfway through it, and it's helping me with the story I'm currently planning.
> 
> Although I am a little stuck on the character arc. I'm working on a noir-ish sci-fi story, and I usually have old Bogart movies playing in the back of my mind. In many of his movies, the protagonist doesn't seem to change or improve. He just manages to get through the current problem. I'm not sure if this is a genre thing, or if there's something that just hasn't "clicked" in my brain yet.


I think you're right. Some genres just don't feature strong character arcs.

_Jurassic Park_ comes to mind. The characters are static, living or dying based on the traits they have at the start of the adventure. Character growth and development are practically non-existent, because the book is about a concept rather than characters.

Granted, I'd say _Jurassic Park_'s greatest flaw is the weak characters. Perhaps Libbie should send a Kindle pre-loaded with a copy of her book back to Michael Crichton via time machine


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## Michael W Griffith (Sep 6, 2014)

Bought it, read it, and busy incorporating lots of good ideas into my standard workflows.  Also picked up "The Anatomy of a Story" by John Truby, as Libbie suggested.  As a guy with over fifty "craft" books on my shelf, these two are probably in my top five.


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## MySky (Sep 8, 2014)

I don't know what a "pantser" is, but for those of you who have read this book, do you think it would be helpful for a person who does not use outlining?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MySky said:


> I don't know what a "pantser" is, but for those of you who have read this book, do you think it would be helpful for a person who does not use outlining?


Only if you're willing to experiment with outlining at some level. If you don't use outlining and have no intention to do so, I doubt you'd get much out of it.


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## MySky (Sep 8, 2014)

Thanks, Jim Johnson. My mind just doesn't work that way.


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

I'll pick this up when I figure out how to without a credit card. I don't usually use outlining per say, but when I read the sample, I got the impression it's more of an outline book, but can be used for those who do not.


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## Michael W Griffith (Sep 6, 2014)

MySky said:


> I don't know what a "pantser" is, but for those of you who have read this book, do you think it would be helpful for a person who does not use outlining?


I think the book would be of great help to you whether you're a "pantser" or a "plotter." Whether you end up with a pretty outline or not, there are structural elements of any good story that you'll need to consider before or while writing, or during the revision stage. Just one of many examples is the "nested triangles" concept. If you haven't heard it before, I'd bet you'll find it helpful. If you have heard it before (I had), it never hurts to get a slightly variant take on the idea.


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## Z. Rider (Aug 15, 2014)

Michael W Griffith said:


> I think the book would be of great help to you whether you're a "pantser" or a "plotter."


I agree. The understanding the book gives you on story and character arc would help any kind of fiction writer.


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## Linda Acaster (May 31, 2010)

Okay, I'm convinced.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Scott_SA said:


> I'm about halfway through it, and it's helping me with the story I'm currently planning.
> 
> Although I am a little stuck on the character arc. I'm working on a noir-ish sci-fi story, and I usually have old Bogart movies playing in the back of my mind. In many of his movies, the protagonist doesn't seem to change or improve. He just manages to get through the current problem. I'm not sure if this is a genre thing, or if there's something that just hasn't "clicked" in my brain yet.


I've noticed that in some genres (especially noir) the overall theme is really cynical and dark. In that case, the change your character needs to make might be to grow MORE cynical still. Maybe the fact that he agrees to take on the beautiful but distressed dame's case just shows that he's really still a sucker at heart and he needs to have reality pound the last vestiges of naivete out of him. 

I'd really encourage you to look for some sort of character arc to use. It doesn't need to be momentous or deep, but that desire to watch somebody go on a "betterment" journey really sinks some serious hooks into the human psyche. It can be as simple as learning to stand up to the Cat in the Hat and telling him to stop being such a goofball before Mom gets home. It doesn't need to be "big," but ensuring that it's present will do so much for the emotional connection readers will form with your work.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Simply Unbound said:


> I think you're right. Some genres just don't feature strong character arcs.
> 
> _Jurassic Park_ comes to mind. The characters are static, living or dying based on the traits they have at the start of the adventure. Character growth and development are practically non-existent, because the book is about a concept rather than characters.
> 
> Granted, I'd say _Jurassic Park_'s greatest flaw is the weak characters. Perhaps Libbie should send a Kindle pre-loaded with a copy of her book back to Michael Crichton via time machine


I disagree! Granted, it's been a while since I've read the novel version of JP, but I recall in the film version that Dr. Grant needed to be a little more open-minded to the idea of dealing with kids--if not actually becoming a father someday. He's the one who ends up saving the children from the dinos and gets them back to safety, thus overcoming his aversion to children and deciding that kids aren't all THAT bad. Laura Dern's character--no, Helen Hunt? (what was her character's name? See, it's been a while...) needed to be more independent, and she achieved that. The two kids, I remember from the novel version (I was in eighth grade when I read it, so this is reaching waaay back) needed to be less naive about danger, in the case of the boy, and more in control of her reactions in the case of the girl. Their grandfather needed to learn a hard lesson about playing God--he certainly went on that character journey!

Sometimes it takes practice and deliberate analysis to find the arcs in the most genre-y of genre fiction, but if the story grabs hold of readers' imaginations, you'll find them buried in there somewhere. This is what we respond to inside a story.


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## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

I bought this yesterday and read it straight through. I agree with the OP, it's an excellent recommendation. Even if you're a die hard Pantser understanding your character's flaw and therefor destined journey from the get go gives you immediate robust parameters to help corral your story and make it tight and relevant.

I'm (trying to) work on an episodic ensemble piece and I'm tying myself in knots. Reading this has really helped me put some structure around what I should be shining the torch on. 

Thanks OP and BIG THANKS to you Libbie!


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## Scott_SA (Jan 31, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> I'd really encourage you to look for some sort of character arc to use. It doesn't need to be momentous or deep, but that desire to watch somebody go on a "betterment" journey really sinks some serious hooks into the human psyche.


I ended up switching protagonists. I realized the "ally" had a very significant role throughout the story and also provided me with a few strong character arc possibilities (which would be improvements in his life). I'm not 100% happy with my conflicts yet. Changing the main character has also changed the feel of the story. But I'm going to sleep on them tonight and see if I can come up with better ones tomorrow.

Thanks!


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## MacMcAdams (Dec 25, 2014)

Off topic... El Hawk - Your Tidewater cover is so incredible.


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## Mark Tyson (Sep 22, 2014)

I bought it, I am reading and so far I am very disappointed that it didn't come with a cigar (like the one in your photo!) The book's great though! I am using it to outline my next series (4books)


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

Just a reminder, for those of you who loved the book.  Please consider leaving an honest review


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## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

MirandaDean said:


> Just a reminder, for those of you who loved the book. Please consider leaving an honest review


YOU'RE SO RIGHT!!! It hadn't even crossed my mind! Thanks for reminding, I'm heading over to Amazon immediately......


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## Simply Unbound (Mar 7, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> I disagree! Granted, it's been a while since I've read the novel version of JP, but I recall in the film version that Dr. Grant needed to be a little more open-minded to the idea of dealing with kids--if not actually becoming a father someday. He's the one who ends up saving the children from the dinos and gets them back to safety, thus overcoming his aversion to children and deciding that kids aren't all THAT bad. Laura Dern's character--no, Helen Hunt? (what was her character's name? See, it's been a while...) needed to be more independent, and she achieved that. The two kids, I remember from the novel version (I was in eighth grade when I read it, so this is reaching waaay back) needed to be less naive about danger, in the case of the boy, and more in control of her reactions in the case of the girl. Their grandfather needed to learn a hard lesson about playing God--he certainly went on that character journey!
> 
> Sometimes it takes practice and deliberate analysis to find the arcs in the most genre-y of genre fiction, but if the story grabs hold of readers' imaginations, you'll find them buried in there somewhere. This is what we respond to inside a story.


First of all, I would agree that the movie features stronger character arcs than the novel does.

And sure, the novel does have character arcs, but there are so many characters, all of whom are poorly developed, that I have a hard time considering their arcs to be arcs. The whiny girl is still whining at the very end of the book. The grandfather is evil and he remains evil, so he must die! (Note that he's more evil and contemptible in the book than in the movie.) Two or three points hardly make an arc.

I'm not denying that there are character arcs. I just don't think they play a _prominent_ role in this particular book. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Slightly off topic ... but if you wanted to argue that the _reader_ is the main character in Jurassic Park, and that Crichton is taking us on a trip through his park in order for us, the readers, to grow as characters, I'd agree in a heartbeat.

I've also read Crichton's book Timeline, which features more prominent character arcs. So there's that.

In any case, I am enjoying your book! I think your strategy is practical, and I can already see how I'll apply it to a new story concept I'm developing.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Jurassic Park sucked. Oh yeah. I just said it. BRING IT ON.


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## LoriP (Jun 2, 2014)

I bought it!  I'm hoping it'll help me figure out how to add more to a story I'm working on. I'm already getting some ideas. Thanks!


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## Simply Unbound (Mar 7, 2015)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Jurassic Park sucked. Oh yeah. I just said it. BRING IT ON.


IT'S ON!

I ... I ... I found Jurassic Park wholly underwhelming.

That's all the defense I can muster on its behalf


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Simply Unbound said:


> IT'S ON!
> 
> I ... I ... I found Jurassic Park wholly underwhelming.
> 
> That's all the defense I can muster on its behalf


I hated it.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

On a spur of the whim notion I decided to pick up this book. I'm someone who generally writes by the seat of their pants (although I do tend to have a paragraph-or-so summary setting up the main problem) and I've been trying to get into outlining a little bit more, but none of the books I've read prior have worked for me. I'm a very organic sort of writer, in that I don't often know the actual 'plot' until I'm in the middle of writing it. I also struggle when I start thinking about 'structure' and 'making sure of pacing' and all the technical things that outliners tend to focus on.

That being said, I'm about halfway through this book and I love it so far. It's very character-focused, it's very big-picture focused, and I can simply just not do the things that don't work for me (like the list of scenes). It's the first book about writing that hasn't left me feeling like I'm doing something wrong because I can't think about all the structural things while writing the story. So.

For those who are pantsers, I would recommend this book anyway because I think it has a lot to offer regardless of how someone writes.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Wow, thank you guys for the great reviews! I appreciate it, and I'm glad you guys have found it so helpful.

Mark, wish I could send everybody a cigar, but I need them all for myself. 



MacMcAdams said:


> Off topic... El Hawk - Your Tidewater cover is so incredible.


Thanks! I love it. The art is by Lane Brown, who is doing six more covers for me this year, for all my 2015 new releases. In fact I just got the first one today and it's predictably awesome. Lake Union picked up Tidewater after it'd been self-published, and I am very happy that they've kept the illustration for the cover, although the design is a little different.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

I also highly recommend these self-editing books:

"Showing and Telling in Fiction": http://www.amazon.com/Showing-Telling-Fiction-Writers-Guides-ebook/dp/B00J3CUEZM 

"Rivet Your Readers with Deep Point of View" by Jill Elizabeth Nelson: http://amzn.to/1gdSFBD 

"Mastering Showing vs Telling in Your Fiction" by Marcy Kennedy http://amzn.to/1u8mjUL 

"The Emotion Thesaurus: A Writer's Guide to Character Expression" http://writershelpingwriters.net/bookstore/

_Wishing everyone much success in their writing journey._


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

elizabethsade said:


> On a spur of the whim notion I decided to pick up this book. I'm someone who generally writes by the seat of their pants (although I do tend to have a paragraph-or-so summary setting up the main problem) and I've been trying to get into outlining a little bit more, but none of the books I've read prior have worked for me. I'm a very organic sort of writer, in that I don't often know the actual 'plot' until I'm in the middle of writing it. I also struggle when I start thinking about 'structure' and 'making sure of pacing' and all the technical things that outliners tend to focus on.
> 
> That being said, I'm about halfway through this book and I love it so far. It's very character-focused, it's very big-picture focused, and I can simply just not do the things that don't work for me (like the list of scenes). It's the first book about writing that hasn't left me feeling like I'm doing something wrong because I can't think about all the structural things while writing the story. So.
> 
> For those who are pantsers, I would recommend this book anyway because I think it has a lot to offer regardless of how someone writes.


Which book are you referring to?


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Sherry_Soule said:


> Which book are you referring to?


The one recommended in the thread, by ElHawk.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Sherry_Soule said:


> Which book are you referring to?


...

the one mentioned in the original post of the thread? (Also, nice threadjack with your product placement!)

EDIT: ninja'd by elizabethsade *shakes fist*


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> ...
> 
> the one mentioned in the original post of the thread? (Also, nice threadjack with your product placement!)
> 
> EDIT: ninja'd by elizabethsade *shakes fist*


Hee! I'm just fast because I'm at work and not wanting to do my actual work. 

I did just finish the book and I think the first half really was the best when it came to how I write. I think the pacing and outlining bits will be useful after a book is written and I'm re-structuring it a bit for edits (right now that's a thing, since I'm only halfway through my second novel, I'm guessing by 4-5 in there will only be minor re-writes needed).

So, overall I found it really useful, even if I don't really think I'll use much of the super outline-y bits. (I do love the scene and chapter goals, though - I'll definitely be using those in my edits!)


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> ...
> 
> the one mentioned in the original post of the thread? (Also, nice threadjack with your product placement!)
> 
> EDIT: ninja'd by elizabethsade *shakes fist*


SORRY! That was not my intention.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

I picked it up too. Is it good? It made me question everything about my WIP and potentially set me back a month. So yes. It is good. Great job!


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## Colorwheel (Nov 21, 2014)

I'm really enjoying this! I want to outline and think it will help, but it hasn't clicked for me yet. I like the character/motivation-centric approach, and I'm looking forward to trying it out.

So thank you for writing it, and thanks for recommending it!


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## SJ Kelley (Feb 13, 2015)

I picked it up and read it this morning. Great tips, and I like how it's nice and compact; no fluff. I like how the focus is on the characters and how the plot naturally grows out of that. I'm a big fan of Blake Snyder's Save the Cat but it was missing that crucial character bit I think, and I tried to mix the two plot forms together. I just finished Act 1 of my WIP and retro-outlined that, and will try to work my Save The Cat broad beats into a logical series of character-driven scene-by-scene beats tomorrow!


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## timstevens (Jul 4, 2012)

Bought it, on the strength of Michael's recommendation (thanks!), and have read about one third so far. It's great stuff, and quite apart from the advice, Libbie, you're a hell of a writer. 

One thing I struggle with is the character arc aspect. I write action thrillers, and have three ongoing series. In one of them, the anti-hero is a burnt-out former assassin who's trying to atone for his past actions. No problem with an arc there. But the other two series are open-ended - I'll keep writing 'em till my readers beg me to stop - and it's much harder to sustain an arc over that many books. I wonder if readers are less responsive to the arc idea once they've been hooked by a series character.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

timstevens said:


> One thing I struggle with is the character arc aspect. I write action thrillers, and have three ongoing series. In one of them, the anti-hero is a burnt-out former assassin who's trying to atone for his past actions. No problem with an arc there. But the other two series are open-ended - I'll keep writing 'em till my readers beg me to stop - and it's much harder to sustain an arc over that many books. I wonder if readers are less responsive to the arc idea once they've been hooked by a series character.


I wonder if you could focus on book-specific character arcs? Like, have them all related to the 'main' arc, or the antagonist's/whomever's main flaw, but also just make incremental steps? Or introduce new problems that relate to the flaw, tie them all together? I think as long as you have a book-related arc and deliver a satisfying book with some sort of arc, people will be okay. Later in the book she talks about having miniature arcs in scenes and chapters and I think that's something you could work with?

(This is just my opinion as a newbie author and someone who focuses heavily on characters in her writing.)


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## timothyu (Nov 1, 2014)

Picked it up, and switching to it from the writing book I've been working through in free time for the last couple of days. Sounds like at the very least it won't be preachy and dogmatic, but a list of usable techniques. I'd also second the person who mentioned the emotion thesaurus. I'm constantly glancing at it while writing to get bits of inspiration. Rachel Bach's 2k to 10k is the only other book I can think of which actually changed how I write substantially. Though I find the Six Core Competencies from Story Engineering a really useful framework - I can't stand the authors writing though.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

timstevens said:


> Bought it, on the strength of Michael's recommendation (thanks!), and have read about one third so far. It's great stuff, and quite apart from the advice, Libbie, you're a hell of a writer.


Thanks! 



> One thing I struggle with is the character arc aspect. I write action thrillers, and have three ongoing series. In one of them, the anti-hero is a burnt-out former assassin who's trying to atone for his past actions. No problem with an arc there. But the other two series are open-ended - I'll keep writing 'em till my readers beg me to stop - and it's much harder to sustain an arc over that many books. I wonder if readers are less responsive to the arc idea once they've been hooked by a series character.


You can give a character a new flaw to overcome in each book. My historical series has the same main character in three of the four books, and she has a different personal flaw she needs to work on in each one. The flaw in each subsequent book develops naturally out of the events in the prior book, of course. That's one way to approach a series with the same character(s).


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Read this a few days ago. LOVED it.

(Also: Libbie's fiction is awesome. Check out Tidewater to see what I mean)


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> Yes -- there are definitely parts where you can adapt it to be pants-friendly. When I feel like pantsing, I leave out the "beat" portion of the outline and just use the steps that come before as a very rough guide, and let my brain go crazy to fill in all the blanks.


I picked up the book while listening to the podcast  I agree you can take some parts while leaving others and still gain from it. I'm primarily a pantser, but I would call myself an organised pantser. I usually make a list of 40 chapter headings with a goal for each chapter, and then if I feel like it, I add to them with beats. Quite often, half of the list will be remain as a "waypoint" and not have a beat.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I picked up the book while listening to the podcast  I agree you can take some parts while leaving others and still gain from it.


For me, that's true of all writing books these days, and it doesn't diminish a book's value. Even where I disagree, thinking about _why_ I disagree is useful.

When I read a new writing advice, my reaction is generally one of three things:

1. Yeah, obviously.
2. Not for me, it isn't!
3. Hmm, _maaaybe._
4. Wow, really? Yeah, I've got to try that.

Libbie's book had a surprising amount of #4, and virtually nothing from #2. So yeah, great purchase on my part.

I'm at the point where I've written so much that I have my own system, and it's working pretty well, although of course I'd still like to improve. _How_ to improve is always the question for me. I'm pretty consistent once I've learned a lesson, but boy, can I be a slow learner. Anything that can help me tackle my remaining deficiencies is extremely valuable.


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## Z. Rider (Aug 15, 2014)

MichaelWallace said:


> Anything that can help me tackle my remaining deficiencies is extremely valuable.


Yes!

Because I'm in a small group that reads and discusses writing craft books every week, I've read more writing craft books over the last year than ever (the group discussion ones on top of the ones I've read on my own), and I've been suffering from severe more-of-the-same-itis. I was starting to wonder if there was any point in continuing to read writing craft books at this stage. Happily Libbie's book was a "YES!" on that score. (And I've been dying for Sunday to get here so I can discuss it with my group. We all blasted through it, but I think it clicked less for one of us than the others, which always makes for more interesting discussion than unanimous cheering.)

And I really, really appreciated how Libbie gave her thoughts on pantsing vs. outlining in the opening, then dropped it to focus on what she had to teach. I've read too many craft books that raise the argument throughout, which only serves to annoy people who feel like they're in the one camp and bore the people who are in the other. I got a good bit out of Steven James' _Story Trumps Structure_, for example, but man, it was despite his frequent opinionating, not because of it.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

You guys are seriously super-awesome. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the support this book has been getting since I released it, and everybody who didn't hear about it on SPP heard about it here. So thank you! (And those who got it super early will be glad to know that the freshly copy-edited edition was uploaded a couple days ago, huzzah! Ha ha, typos.)



dgaughran said:


> Read this a few days ago. LOVED it.
> 
> (Also: Libbie's fiction is awesome. Check out Tidewater to see what I mean)


David, you're too nice to me.

Once I'm out of Editing Hell I'll start working on my little analysis of the current historical fiction market, and then I'll be doing one that shows how I apply principles of poetry and music to my prose. And then the extent of my knowledge is pretty much tapped out. That's all I know how to do--may it be of use to other writers!


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

I'm such a whoreder when it comes to purchasing and reading books on writing. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## timstevens (Jul 4, 2012)

ElHawk said:


> Thanks!
> 
> You can give a character a new flaw to overcome in each book. My historical series has the same main character in three of the four books, and she has a different personal flaw she needs to work on in each one. The flaw in each subsequent book develops naturally out of the events in the prior book, of course. That's one way to approach a series with the same character(s).


Good tip - will consider it. Thanks.


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## timstevens (Jul 4, 2012)

Plus, I've learned a new word (always a good thing) from your book: _bloviate_. I'll make a point of using it tomorrow.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm almost a total pantser, but I enjoy reading books on writing, seeing it from others points of view. If I can read a book on writing and get even one idea or insight or even if it just reinforces what I already think, then I consider it time well spent. I would really like to learn to plot more. When I do it's very disjointed. I can sometimes think a few chapters ahead, and when I stick to it I find I write much faster as I semi-know what is going to happen. But the truth is more often than not my characters say 'yeah, that's no happening, just shut up and type when I tell you'.   unfortunately for me, they know they're in charge  

anyway, d/l'd the book and am looking forward to spending some time with it soon


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm a fiction pantser. (Outliner with NF) Perhaps a book titled "Put Your Pants Back On" might find an audience.  (Have to be careful with the cover though.)


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

My pants are never going back on, Al!

Picked it up because I love the She-King books, and because I am addicted to craft books. Loved it. I am devoted to a different method of beats, but I think doing the character arc outline first is going to be a really useful tool.

In fact, I was itching to sit down immediately and use it.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

eleanorberesford said:


> My pants are never going back on, Al!
> 
> Picked it up because I love the She-King books, and because I am addicted to craft books. Loved it. I am devoted to a different method of beats, but I think doing the character arc outline first is going to be a really useful tool.
> 
> In fact, I was itching to sit down immediately and use it.


Oh, yay! Glad you liked my other stuff, too. The She-King series is getting fancy new covers this spring.

Once I'm done with edits, I have four new books to outline, so I'll be revisiting the contents of my little handbook often in the future.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Krista, you had me on the floor. LOL!  
It takes real ba**s to make a statement like that
around here. The way you put it is hilarious.

Lib, happy to see you back & posting. You epitomize
the adage: self-taught, best-taught. You're one of the sharpest,
as far as I'm concerned. You've done it & continue to do it.

Re: the way I work: I never, ever plot/outline anything. The minute
I get wind which direction the story is going in...I drop it. Lose
interest. I don't want to know how it ends, or how to get there.
Having sated thus, if I were a plotter, I'd definitely be buying your
book. Knowing you, it's chock-full of useful info & advice.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Krista, you had me on the floor. LOL!  
It takes real ba**s to make a statement like that
around here. The way you put it is hilarious.

Lib, happy to see you back & posting. You epitomize
the adage: self-taught, best-taught. You're one of the sharpest,
as far as I'm concerned. You've done it & continue to do it.

Re: the way I work: I never, ever plot/outline anything. The minute
I get wind which direction the story is going in...I drop it. Lose
interest. I don't want to know how it ends, or how to get there.
Having sated thus, if I were a plotter, I'd definitely be buying your
book. Knowing you, it's chock-full of useful info & advice.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Kirkee, you're sweet. Thanks. 

Kenneth, thank you for your enthusiasm! I appreciate it. I learned what I know by reading other, smarter people's books. I just wanted to condense the method I developed by from their wisdom into something I could communicate with other authors. I feel like all credit should go to the people I studied so I could understand story better (John Truby, Annie Dillard, Dwight V. Swain, Stephen King, etc.)


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## Susan Alison (Jul 1, 2011)

Libbie - I haven't really got into your book yet but I'm sure I'll be inspired when I do - however, I had to come on here and say - THANK YOU SO MUCH for the word, 'bloviate'. What a fabulous word! I love it. I'm practising for the next time a beribboned canvasser comes to my door and then it will come into its own. 

Bell: "Ring, ring."
Me, opening door and seeing beribboned canvassers:  "Please take your bloviation elsewhere. Thank you."  *shuts door*


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## TessOliver (Dec 2, 2010)

Just clicked it and I'm looking forward to diving in.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Haha. Yeah, bloviate is a pretty awesome word.


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## Annabel Chant (Feb 24, 2015)

I've downloaded this, too. I've just finished story arcs, and am about to take my pants off  

It's great so far


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

eleanorberesford said:


> My pants are never going back on, Al!
> 
> Picked it up because I love the She-King books, and because I am addicted to craft books. Loved it. I am devoted to a different method of beats, but I think doing the character arc outline first is going to be a really useful tool.
> 
> In fact, I was itching to sit down immediately and use it.


Wait, I'm confused. People actually wear pants while writing? I choose this line of work so I can go to my office every day without pants. (Though, I suspect my neighbors hate me because of my bamboo blinds which don't do an adequate job of blocking my office windows)


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## ThomasL (Jun 2, 2014)

I just bought this book and I'm looking forward to learning from it. 

This is my first post and I hope to be joining your ranks in the near future!


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Libbie, this is pure gold. Thank you for putting it together and sharing it with us. This deserves a bump and a strong recommendation to buy.


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> You can give a character a new flaw to overcome in each book. My historical series has the same main character in three of the four books, and she has a different personal flaw she needs to work on in each one. The flaw in each subsequent book develops naturally out of the events in the prior book, of course. That's one way to approach a series with the same character(s).


I'd love to hear more. I read the book but was struggling on how to apply this to a series. Wanted to read it again but I want to let it sink in a few days before I go back for a second read.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

AshRonin said:


> I'd love to hear more. I read the book but was struggling on how to apply this to a series. Wanted to read it again but I want to let it sink in a few days before I go back for a second read.


I'm not sure there's much more to say about it than that!  Just do a new outline for each new book. Same principles apply. Make sure the new character flaw in each new book arises from the events of the previous book.

So for example, in my Egyptian series, the first book is about a mother. She has a child by the end of the book and believes her child has a male soul trapped in a female body. In the second book, the main character (that child, grown up) has a flaw that has to do with the way she was raised, believing she was both male and female in one body. In this book, she falls in love with a man who is outside her caste. In the third book, the forbidden romance between them has a lot to do with her new flaw to overcome and over the course of the story, her relationship with her children sours. In the final book, she has to put her relationship with her kids to rights. Each book has a new problem and a new flaw to overcome.

In more "epic" works with lots of main characters per book, you may have to stretch character arcs over multiple books. That's what I'm doing in the new series I'm working on. In total there are fourteen main characters spread out over three books, and only one of them has an arc resolve in the first book (and she gets a new arc in the second book.) I had to outline that series all in one big go, as if it were one huge novel, in order to make sense of the arcs. It took a long time, but I really like the story, so it was worth all the crazy effort.


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## Calliope03 (Feb 3, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> I'm not sure there's much more to say about it than that!  Just do a new outline for each new book. Same principles apply. Make sure the new character flaw in each new book arises from the events of the previous book.
> 
> So for example, in my Egyptian series, the first book is about a mother. She has a child by the end of the book and believes her child has a male soul trapped in a female body. In the second book, the main character (that child, grown up) has a flaw that has to do with the way she was raised, believing she was both male and female in one body. In this book, she falls in love with a man who is outside her caste. In the third book, the forbidden romance between them has a lot to do with her new flaw to overcome and over the course of the story, her relationship with her children sours. In the final book, she has to put her relationship with her kids to rights. Each book has a new problem and a new flaw to overcome.
> 
> In more "epic" works with lots of main characters per book, you may have to stretch character arcs over multiple books. That's what I'm doing in the new series I'm working on. In total there are fourteen main characters spread out over three books, and only one of them has an arc resolve in the first book (and she gets a new arc in the second book.) I had to outline that series all in one big go, as if it were one huge novel, in order to make sense of the arcs. It took a long time, but I really like the story, so it was worth all the crazy effort.


Loved the book! I'm sitting here copying all my notes into a txt file so I can start plotting this trilogy. You mentioned Harry Potter in your book, and it sounded like he had to fight the same flaw until the end... Since my trilogy isn't made up of true standalone books, I'm struggling with how to make the ending of book 1 and 2 satisfying, since my MCs can't really overcome their flaws until the final book. And I'm also trying to decide if I should plot it as one big book (all plot points in 300k) but also do that on a smaller level (all the plot points in each book).

I'm also having a hard time figuring out how the flaw connects to the theme... or why there's only one theme. Before this, I thought my series had a few themes going on at once (with maybe one main one.)

Also--if you have a series, do you have the same theme for all the books until the end? My series spans several subseries, and I was thinking it might be good to have the same major theme (and subthemes) running through all the books so readers who love the first will happily jump to the second. But maybe that could also end up feeling redundant.

Anyway-- I loved the book and got some of my other author friends to pick it up.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

Would this be a good book for someone trying out Phase outlining for erotica short stories (10k words or less)?


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Navigator said:


> Would this be a good book for someone trying out Phase outlining for erotica short stories (10k words or less)?


You may not use much of what she gives you, but I did find what she said interesting in that it taught me how to reframe how I look at my stories? I don't think her outlining process itself would be very useful for erotica, but I do think the way she frames a story (the 'three legged stool') will at the very least give you a potentially different way to look at how everything goes on.

So yes, I think it would be helpful, you're just going to take away different things than someone who does a different kind of outline.

I'm currently doing a phase outline for my short story and I plan to go back to this book because I think keeping some of her key tenants in mind is useful while I'm doing the phase outline. So.


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## mel p (Oct 22, 2014)

I am one of those people who starts but never finishes. I guess I would consider myself more of a pantser than a plotter. But, since I haven't exactly been successful with this methodology, I was definitely open to suggestion. I got Libby's book and I really really think it is going to help me succeed in actually finishing a book. I highly recommend this to anyone who is looking for a new approach!

And did anyone see David Gaughran's blog today? I already saw that he had posted in this string, but check out his recommendation on his blog. Outstanding!

https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2015/04/17/fighting-with-both-hands/


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

A few days ago I was lurking and saw this post started by my friend, Michael Wallace, who I think is a gifted (and hard-working) writer.  I figured that if it has his endorsement, it's worth a look.

Worth a look?  What an understatement.  This book has been an incredible revelation for me.  Based on the title, I thought it was mainly about how to write efficiently through outlining.  That might be the main thrust of the thing, actually, and I intend to try that.  But for me, this was the first time I really thought about what a story actually is.  I thought I knew, but I didn't.  As Tom Clancy often wrote, I didn't even know what I didn't know.  I've been walking around in a trance for a couple of days as I chew on what I'm learning.  

I'm not that bright of a guy.  I need Rosetta Stones to help me along.  And this is one.

I've had to step away from writing.  I haven't published in a year, haven't checked reviews, bought ads or even talked/posted about it.  I'm sure all my books have 7-digit rankings, although I haven't looked.  But I'm pretty excited about the new ideas that I've only begun to understand based on this amazing book.  I'm very thankful that I found this resource, and I can't wait to get back to all of this.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Good to see you again, Dave, and glad to hear that you're writing again.



> I'm not that bright of a guy. I need Rosetta Stones to help me along. And this is one.


I say the same thing about myself, although I prefer to use the term "slow learner." The good news is that we slow learners hang on tenaciously to those lessons learned.


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