# Amazon is intermittently admitting to errors in it's KU page reporting.



## Becca Fanning

TLR - If you have books enrolled in KDP Select and you think your reported page reads have been unusually low recently, you should send an email to [email protected], [email protected], and [email protected] Provide them with data and if your numbers don't look right, *be firm*. You might get results that are worth your time. Others have.

For the past few weeks dozens of authors have been reporting that their page read counts on new releases have been...off. Not off by ten percent, but by 50-95%. These are for consistent releases with expected patterns of performance (as expected as you can be in this industry). I don't want this discussion to get bogged down in conjecture about bad books, bad promos, etc. *Sales numbers and sales ranks are as expected, but page reads are drastically lower.*

As authors have started to come together in their genre-focused forums and support groups, they started to compare their data and take action. Emails began to fly, initially meeting with a stalwart wall of "We looked into your pages read and can confirm that they are accurate." Most of us took that and gave up. But one didn't. They insisted on getting someone on the phone and elevating their issue up the chain.

After thirty minutes on the phone, insisting something wasn't right, something kind of miraculous happened: On Friday Sept 30, *Amazon admitted that there's a problem on their end and that they have to get their legal team involved*. Since then, a handful of authors have gotten emails stating that a "small number of pages" were erroneously left out of their reports and were now being credited. One author saw their September page total go up by a little over 1,000 KENP and another saw it go up by over 30,000 KENP.

But so far, those small handful of responses are the only thing we've gotten. Interestingly enough, the author who first broke through the Amazon shieldwall and got the admission that there was something wrong hasn't received an email about additional page credit yet. In fact, concurrent with these developments this weekend, Amazon was still emailing authors with massively suppressed page reads that everything was fine.

Just to make a few points clear: the pool of authors who have noticed things aren't right includes those with fewer than five books under their belt and NYT bestselling authors with over 100 books who regularly break into the top 100 or top 50. This issue does not seem to be system-wide: it's only affecting new releases (perhaps since July, but mostly those published in September). These are books which are selling well, ranking well, but the reported pages are vastly lower.

I had a promo push on September 23. The book sold 80 copies and had 100 pages read. The prior books in the series had about the same sales but 20 times the page reads on their promo day.
I had a promo push on September 30. The book sold 118 copies and had 300 pages read. This should have been 10-15 times higher based on prior series releases.

If you recently published and your page reads look off, you should reach out to Amazon and let them know. The worst case scenario (unless you're me) is that they tell you that everything is fine and you're right back where you started. We're in a weekend, and it's not clear what will happen next week. But Amazon reaching out to individual authors seems to indicate that only the squeaky wheels are getting grease.


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## ImaWriter

Check out this thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242084.0.html

ETA a comment to my above brevity. 

There's info in the above thread that includes additional experiences others are having with Amazon reporting.


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## Becca Fanning

ImaWriter said:


> Check out this thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242084.0.html


That seems like a whole different issue, right? Leaving that link without comment seems to imply that that thread covers this issue, which it doesn't. But I am glad to see another data driven thread about Amazon wonkiness, so thank you.


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## RinG

Thanks for posting Becca. I'm watching my new release closely. Page reads seem a little low to me, but not enough yet to say either way. Nowhere near the level of difference you're reporting, but lower than I expected.

I'm really hoping Amazon picks up on this, and fixes it all around for everyone! With so little data on our end, it's always hard to tell if numbers are lower than they should be, or just lower than you hoped!


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## bbhamel

I'm seeing seriously low pages read right now, like absurdly low. I had a new release that followed my normal promo schedule, same length as all my books (so same kenpc), and it got less than half the pages read as similarly ranked books did. I had another book reach 250 in the paid store and peak at around 19k pages read on its best day.

I've talked to other authors with even worse stories than that. People, check your pages read, and compare them to previous books. Something happened in September and it's not good for us.


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## LadyG

I haven't published anything new recently and I certainly don't get thousands of pages read on a daily basis, but mine abruptly dropped to zero. I've not had one single page in eight days now. That's definitely not normal for me.


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## PearlEarringLady

LadyG said:


> I haven't published anything new recently and I certainly don't get thousands of pages read on a daily basis, but mine abruptly dropped to zero. I've not had one single page in eight days now. That's definitely not normal for me.


Did the drop coincide with anything - Select renewal, new file upload, price change, anything that might be going through the KDP publishing process? (Just considering all options - I'm suspicious of Select renewals.)

I've had four releases recently, in June, July, early September, later September. The first was a normal pattern of pages read (a quick take-off, increasing steadily over 2+ weeks). The last 3 all saw a slower take-off, a brief spike and then a drop to lower levels. But I haven't seen zero levels and I can't be sure if this is a problem or just books that readers are less interested in.


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## Indiecognito

bbhamel said:


> I'm seeing seriously low pages read right now, like absurdly low. I had a new release that followed my normal promo schedule, same length as all my books (so same kenpc), and it got less than half the pages read as similarly ranked books did. I had another book reach 250 in the paid store and peak at around 19k pages read on its best day.
> 
> I've talked to other authors with even worse stories than that. People, check your pages read, and compare them to previous books. Something happened in September and it's not good for us.


Just to offer my own experience, I got in touch with Amazon over this as well, after talking to a few other authors about the issues. I'm having the same experience. Tanking page reads, while sales are spiking. It's bizarre and unsettling.


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## LadyStarlight

I'm adding my voice to this. I have several books in the top 1,000 along with a sizable backlist and reads are abysmal compared to past similar ranks. There is definitely something wrong or going on.


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## Steven Kelliher

My KENP literally went from hundreds/thousands per day to zero this week, with no warning. Very strange.


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## Becca Mills

This seems concerning. Authors are at Amazon's mercy, when it comes to reporting electronic sales/borrows/page-reads. That's the case for traditionally published authors, too. We all need to be able to trust their mechanisms.


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## unkownwriter

My page reads have basically died, but I put it off as not having released anything in that niche lately. Maybe there's something going on other than that, but I have no real basis to complain. But, I had eight sales reported, one was paid and two show as returns. What happened to the other five? No idea. I thought it was Book Report at first, but now I'm thinking it's on Amazon's end.


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## Indiecognito

Another couple of observations:

1) My page reads occasionally jump up by 500-1000 at a time. Or by 2 pages. Two pages in an hour, say, is not typical for someone with 69 published books whose reads are normally in the tens of thousands a day. 

2) I'm running a couple of advertising campaigns that are going well in terms of click-through. Normally this reflects in sales, but particularly in pages read. Well, the sales, for whatever reason, are outweighing the page reads. Which is completely atypical. Given that it now seems to be a pattern for quite a few authors, here's hoping Amazon figures this out stat. I have a bad feeling that KU3 has been rolling out with major bugs, or that this is some anti-scammer tactic gone awry, that's simply ended up hurting a lot of authors who work their butts off to get their books in front of readers' eyes.


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## LadyG

PaulineMRoss said:


> Did the drop coincide with anything - Select renewal, new file upload, price change, anything that might be going through the KDP publishing process? (Just considering all options - I'm suspicious of Select renewals.)


Nope. Nothing. Most of my books renewed in late August or early September. I haven't made any changes to anything. In fact, I've been on sort of a hiatus from writing for a few weeks because my personal life has been a bit unsettled.


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## Not any more

I'm used to thousands of page reads per day across nine books. So far today, Book Report says I've made 73 cents. This following two cross-promos and giving away 750 books the past two days. Pages read started to tank the last week of Sept, but they really were below normal all through Sept, which was 2/5 that of August.


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## Going Incognito

This issue drove me out of lurking status last week to ask if Zon launched KU3 and just didn't tell anyone. 
I'm down to 1/4 of my normal, very steady income in the flip of a switch. I've emailed. I've yet to hear back.


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## raminar_dixon

Yep, something is super wrong.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LY1FN6Q

New release on Friday is showing lots of sales today and yesterday, but ZERO pagereads. Not possible. I have multiple authors and readers all telling me that, yep, they are indeed reading it with KU. There should be thousands of pagereads by now, but there's not.

I've emailed everyone I know at Amazon. I'll let you know if I hear anything.


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## Going Incognito

Indiecognito said:


> Well, the sales, for whatever reason, are outweighing the page reads. Which is completely atypical. Given that it now seems to be a pattern for quite a few authors, here's hoping Amazon figures this out stat. I have a bad feeling that KU3 has been rolling out with major bugs, or that this is some anti-scammer tactic gone awry, that's simply ended up hurting a lot of authors who work their butts off to get their books in front of readers' eyes.


One cognito to another, I'm with you.

My graph is averaging waaaaaay lower than normal, but here's a brand spanking new release. Sales spike. No borrow spike? Seriously? Reads just keep dropping and dropping.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

brkingsolver said:


> So far today, Book Report says I've made 73 cents.


Welcome to my world 

But seriously, this is very worrying for those of you who should be getting 1000s of page reads. I hope Amazon has got some sort of system that can go back and eventually pay you for the correct reads.


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## KaraKing

Here's my story....

The kindle version of The Power of the Pussy consistently ranks around 800 and has daily page reads in the 6k-8k range. On Sept 30th I updated it with a new cover and a new category. I went to check and my rankings fell to the 2800 range!!! Also my page reads are waaaaaay down in the 3-4k range since I made the changes. I can't imagine these two little changes would make such a drastic and dramatic change over night. 

I think this happening to new releases and anyone who is making changes to their titles that requires the review process. I am SO happy I came a cross this post because I was baffled. 

Also, after I freaked out I immediately went back in to put the old cover back and my review process is going on the 48 hour mark which is unusually slow. They usually crank out the changes in 24 hours. Something is going on over there. Thank you for this post because I will be contacting them asap. I will update you guys if I get any info.


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## LadyStarlight

Please every one, keep posting and keep sharing. This is a very serious issue. Amazon needs to be held accountable for this glitch, or intentional change they've made without notifying us.


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## Some Random Guy

Chalk me up as another baffled puppy.  Usually, my throughput is 40% sales 60% KU, sometimes right up to 1/3-2/3.  I put out a new release at the end of Aug and not only were the pages read in Sept about two-thirds or less than my previous release at the end of May, but the sales-KU ratio was way out of whack for the first time since the introduction of KU2.  Considering June is supposed to be a slower month than Sept, and this year, June beat the pants off Sept in terms of KU reads for me...  Go figure.


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## Ros_Jackson

New release in Select on 1st October, and I've got a rank in .com but no sales and no pagereads. Either Amazon is really slow reporting, or I've had people download through KU and read no pages. For me, it's still too early to tell. It might be completely normal ghost borrows, but I'll be watching this thread with interest.


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## Sam Kates

I released a novella two weeks ago. For the first week, I had page reads averaging 50 per day (I know, prawny, but still) and then zilch. Until reading this thread, I thought it was down to my poor visibility (and it could yet be), but maybe not. I'm afraid I can't assist with e-mailing Am because I have no historic data to present an argument - just thought I'd share here to show that it might be affecting us lesser hitters, too.


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## Indiecognito

KaraKing said:


> Here's my story....
> 
> The kindle version of The Power of the [kitten] consistently ranks around 800 and has daily page reads in the 6k-8k range. On Sept 30th I updated it with a new cover and a new category. I went to check and my rankings fell to the 2800 range!!! Also my page reads are waaaaaay down in the 3-4k range since I made the changes. I can't imagine these two little changes would make such a drastic and dramatic change over night.
> 
> I think this happening to new releases and anyone who is making changes to their titles that requires the review process. I am SO happy I came a cross this post because I was baffled.
> 
> Also, after I freaked out I immediately went back in to put the old cover back and my review process is going on the 48 hour mark which is unusually slow. They usually crank out the changes in 24 hours. Something is going on over there. Thank you for this post because I will be contacting them asap. I will update you guys if I get any info.


This is brilliant detective work. I had recently updated backmatter in three of my best sellers, so my data is consistent with your theory. And it explains the new release issue as well. Anyone who emails Amazon should mention this. Thanks for the input!


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## Steven Kelliher

It's really difficult to read this stuff. I have no way of knowing whether or not Amazon's stats and payouts are fair. It certainly seems strange that I went from a few thousand pagereads per day to literally 0 for a week now. That's insane.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## tresero

I did a test. 2 books, 2 different authors, 2 different amazon accounts (yes legit, 2 different publishers).

I had 2 different people read them, so 1 person one book, one person the other book. That was close to 4 hours ago. Zero page reads have shown up. One was a new release 9/28 the other a back catalog that has no sales or reads anymore except sporadically. So, I can be 99% sure that any page reads that show up are due to those readers. So far, I don't have to worry about it since I apparently have no reads.


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## SidK

Steven Kelliher said:


> My KENP literally went from hundreds/thousands per day to zero this week, with no warning. Very strange.


Same here. In my case I was getting *500 - 1000* KENPC's a day and then a sudden drop to *0* for multiple days in a row.


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## AliceS

September was the worst month this year for me. I had been having consistent reads all along and a couple sales a week. I did some promos that bumped day of and crashed after. I've had nothing - no sales and a smattering of KENPS for the past 2 weeks. I chalked it up to ineffective marketing, but now I've got to wonder...


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## lovewritingsmut

I'm currently in the top 100 on Amazon with fewer than 5k reads.  It's ridiculous.  
Granted it's only day 2, but I have over 500 sales.  Whether or not Amazon is admitting it, there is something seriously wrong with page read tracking and/or reporting right now.


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## Becca Mills

When did folks start noticing this problem?

ETA: I know Becca Fanning said "the last few weeks," but I'm wondering if we could come up with something more like a single day or a range of a few days when it seemed to begin.


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## raminar_dixon

^^
beaten by the Boydster 



Becca Mills said:


> When did folks start noticing this problem?


I started seeing reports of this problem on or about September 15th. I believe it was ongoing before that, however.


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## Becca Mills

Boyd said:


> September 5th


Wow, so it's been a while. Thanks, Boyd.


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## KaraKing

Okay I just sent my email.

I think everyone having issues should email them so they know that a lot of people are being affected.


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## Becca Mills

Does anyone think it'd be unhelpful/counterproductive if I blogged about this?


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## KaraKing

Anyone else have a huge drop in ranking? My loss of reads is making my rank fall. I know some of you said your rank is normal... anyone out there seeing anything weird with their ranking? I don't want to be the only one. lol


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## tresero

And then there's this. #8 ranked amazon author? 1 book?

https://www.amazon.com/Nadezhda-Belenkaya/e/B01J8ODTXS/


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## Chrissy

Becca Mills said:


> Does anyone think it'd be unhelpful/counterproductive if I blogged about this?


Helpful.

I think summarizing the issue and the suspected cause in one place is a good thing.


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## Becca Mills

tresero said:


> And then there's this. #8 ranked amazon author? 1 book?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Nadezhda-Belenkaya/e/B01J8ODTXS/


And that book is ranked 392,610. Something's definitely weird there!

ETA: Nevermind -- the ebook is ranked 6 in the store. That's why her author rank is so high.

EagainTA: It's a Kindle First pick this month. Ergo the massive spike.


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## Not any more

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Welcome to my world
> 
> But seriously, this is very worrying for those of you who should be getting 1000s of page reads. I hope Amazon has got some sort of system that can go back and eventually pay you for the correct reads.


I had 73 cents when I woke up this morning, and eight hours later, still 73 cents. My sales are recording, but no page reads. This morning, Book Report also reported no reads for yesterday, zero revenue for this month, and refreshing didn't help. Book Report is acting normal now, but my sales for today have disappeared (not returned), i.e. the money showed up for a while, then disappeared again.

I hate these days when I'm stuck home with nothing to do but watch Zon do weird things.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

tresero said:


> And then there's this. #8 ranked amazon author? 1 book?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Nadezhda-Belenkaya/e/B01J8ODTXS/


It's from an Amazon imprint, so totally legit.


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## AllyWho

tresero said:


> And then there's this. #8 ranked amazon author? 1 book?


What's your point in linking to this author, are you implying it is a scam? That is an Amazon imprint, they put a lot of heft behind books they publish. It's also against k-board rules to link to another author's book in such a fashion.


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## DaniO

tresero said:


> And then there's this. #8 ranked amazon author? 1 book?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Nadezhda-Belenkaya/e/B01J8ODTXS/


That's an Amazon Crossing book, so I guess it's being promoted heavily by Amazon.



Becca Mills said:


> Does anyone think it'd be unhelpful/counterproductive if I blogged about this?


I think it would be helpful.


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## tresero

AliceW said:


> What's your point in linking to this author, are you implying it is a scam? That is an Amazon imprint, they put a lot of heft behind books they publish. It's also against k-board rules to link to another author's book in such a fashion.


I wasn't implying anything. In fact I was wondering how it seems that that book is getting ranks. Delete if you need to.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

tresero said:


> And then there's this. #8 ranked amazon author? 1 book?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Nadezhda-Belenkaya/e/B01J8ODTXS/


Lots of helpful votes on the 3 reviews (4 and 2 star)


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## Going Incognito

tresero said:


> And then there's this. #8 ranked amazon author? 1 book?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Nadezhda-Belenkaya/e/B01J8ODTXS/


It's one of 5-6 "Kindle First" options this month. I think it's a prime thing? 1st of every month Amazon sends out a 'get one of these books a month before anyone else can.' I usually don't pick one, they all usually look kind of... not for me.


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## tresero

Going Incognito said:


> It's one of 5-6 kindle first options this month. I think it's a prime thing? 1st of every month Amazon sends out a 'get one of these books a month before anyone else can.' I usually don't pick one, they all usually look kind of... not for me.


Thanks, that would explain the Nov 1 release date.


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## AllyWho

tresero said:


> I wasn't implying anything. In fact I was wondering how it seems that that book is getting ranks. Delete if you need to.


As I and others replied, that title is an Amazon imprint. They have extra tools at their disposal to launch their titles, including giving Prime members a free copy before release. I'm not sure how it is relevant to a discussion about pages read?


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## Going Incognito

Here's a Kindle 1st link, w that book. 
https://www.amazon.com/kindle-dbs/kindlefirst/ref=kf_lp_rw_gp_to_hz?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=kft_2016_delivers


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## Going Incognito

AliceW said:


> As I and others replied, that title is an Amazon imprint. They have extra tools at their disposal to launch their titles, including giving Prime members a free copy before release. I'm not sure how it is relevant to a discussion about pages read?


I'm thinking it was meant as a 'here's another example of weirdness in the Amazon matrix,' kinda thing.


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## tresero

Going Incognito said:


> I'm thinking it was meant as a 'here's another example of weirdness in the Amazon matrix,' kinda thing.


Exactly, and sorry.


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## LeonardDHilleyII

LadyStarlight said:



> Please every one, keep posting and keep sharing. This is a very serious issue. Amazon needs to be held accountable for this glitch, or intentional change they've made without notifying us.


I agree. I had two huge spikes and then nothing for well over a week now. I've even run ads and sold books. No pages read showing up though, and it's usually much higher.


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## Going Incognito

tresero said:


> Exactly, and sorry.


Welcome to the shark tank, btw.


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## chloegarner

All right, so my numbers are small enough that I can track individual readers, download by download, and I'd assumed that I'd just hit a period where people weren't reading, but it's rare for people to read one of my books in more than two or three days (600 KENP apiece) and while I can count three or four downloads on one book in the last week, two or three on another, and two on a box set, I've been getting 25-50 pages a day on just one of the three.  That's a really, really long time to take on one book, for my normal readers, and no one has opened the other books at all.

My numbers don't remotely qualify as statistical, though.  Could just have a slow reader.


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## Lysandra_Lorde

I'll throw my ring into the hat. I had close to 4K downloads through SPRT a few days ago. The resulting KENP from a 525KENP book? Just under 5K page reads over 5 days. That would mean that some 13 odd people or so, out of nearly 4,000 borrowed my book... I mean I could just be totally wrong, but that seems horrendously low. I mean that's less than 0.5% per 1,000 eyeballs. I was expecting 1% on the low end, 3% on the high.


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## mcarl215

I just thought I had a meh month until I sat down with Excel and really analyzed my data. I should have made twice what I did. Emails to Amazon have gone out.

If you haven't looked closely at your numbers yet, do it.


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## Allyson J.

Last week I had a free run for the first book in a KU pen name's series...I got 11 downloads and NO page reads. But, I am now getting page reads on a book that has not been in KU since January of 2015. I have no idea what's going on.  

ETA: Romance series


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## Indiecognito

Allyson J. said:


> Last week I had a free run for the first book in a KU pen name's series...I got 11 downloads and NO page reads. But, I am now getting page reads on a book that has not been in KU since January of 2015. I have no idea what's going on.
> 
> ETA: Romance series


It almost sounds like one of their servers is set on the wrong date.


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## eroticatorium

Thanks for this, I've escalated my earlier request with KDP-support. A book I released last week has been under 70k rank this whole time and still has not had a single reported sale or page read. (Like others my sales in general are doing fine, better than expected even, especially since I would expect plummeting pages to lead to a downturn in sales.)


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## bobfrost

I'll throw in that I to have seen a massive decline since early September. Page reads have been cut in half pretty much across the board from my normal baseline, and my most recent novel release earned less than a third of what my typical releases earn out in a 30 day period despite ranking consistently with my catalog.

Perhaps to put it in better perspective, prior to September, I can't remember my last month where I didn't average $1,000 per day or more. Today, despite several recent releases and a book climbing the charts hard and fast, I'm might fall short of $200.

Something is going on, and I don't think it's on my end.


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## Lysandra_Lorde

karenharley said:


> Me, too! On one freebie (SPRT also), my page reads flatlined the day the promo started.
> On another freebie on overlapping days, the page reads are lowish but within a normal-ish range.
> 
> Glitch city.


Good to know I'm not alone! Lol.


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## Becca Mills

Blogged about this here. Sunday afternoon isn't the best time to catch people's attention, but fingers crossed.


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## SM Barrett

This is starting to look like a Kindle Select-wide issue, and not just something that certain authors are seeing. 

If it's a system problem, all writers should see some correction, not just a few.

If every individual writer has to contact Amazon and deal with stonewalling, that is a significant issue, because it might represent SOP for any issue in the future.


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## bobfrost

Here's another blog on the issue from hidden gems:

http://hiddengemsromance.com/amazons-indie-authors-not-earning/


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## PhoenixS

**********


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## PhoenixS

More anecdotal data around low page read numbers:

I ran the same 3-book series on promo in June and Sept. Book 1 was free via BookBub in June and Book 2 free via BB in Sept. Comparatively, we saw more downloads of the freebie and many more sales of the paid books in Sept. 

JUNE:
Book 1 - Free -  55,000 DLs
Book 2 - 99¢ - 1137 sales - best rank #308
Book 3 - $3.99 - 430 sales

SEPT:
Book 1 - 99¢ - 1490 sales - best rank #156
Book 2 - Free - 56,500 DLs
Book 3 - $1.99 - 1417 sales - best rank #195

Even so, over the same 15-day period encompassing the promo days and after, we've seen about 1/3 fewer page reads in September for this series. 

ETA: To put numbers to what that looks like, in June it was about 1.1 million reads during that 15 days compared to about 716K during that same 15-day period in Sept. That's about a $1700 difference


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## Lysandra_Lorde

Thanks for the input on that, Phoenix  I wish I could confidentially say. Probably around rank 15K at the lowest, and 10K at the highest. It went into free for 3 days, and it's paid started at 9K or something, I think.


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## Crystal_

I hadn't even considered looking at books published with updates. I don't have the data in front of me, so I can't say if my falling pages are normal post release drop or something more severe (I'm reasonably sure I updated two of the books in my main series during September). They are showing 30-50% drops in pages, but they're also coming off a promo. I'll have to check more in depth when I get home and have all my data handy. From a quick glance, the pages look low considering sales are holding steady.


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## 13893

I don't know if this is relevant, but I updated some covers a few weeks ago and lost the also boughts on two of the books - both of which have been out for years. I complained to KDP and got the standard tough stuff cream puff boilerplate reply.


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## goneaway

bobfrost said:


> I'll throw in that I to have seen a massive decline since early September. Page reads have been cut in half pretty much across the board from my normal baseline, and my most recent novel release earned less than a third of what my typical releases earn out in a 30 day period despite ranking consistently with my catalog.


Pretty much exactly this.


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## Some Random Guy

bobfrost said:


> I'll throw in that I to have seen a massive decline since early September. Page reads have been cut in half pretty much across the board from my normal baseline, and my most recent novel release earned less than a third of what my typical releases earn out in a 30 day period despite ranking consistently with my catalog.


Pretty much my situation


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## Gertie Kindle

I haven't had any new releases or changed anything, although my page reads have been down.

But here's my wonkiness if you want to call it that. I checked my stats a couple of hours ago and I had about 200 page reads. All of a sudden, I have 1673 page reads. Most of those are for a trilogy of full-length novels. No one person could have read all three books in about three hours although there are some very fast readers out there. 

Not that I'm complaining, but maybe Amazon is starting to catch up?


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## 77071

Well, crap.  Here I thought it was just me Amazon had decided not to work for anymore.  :/  This is usually one of my strongest months and the sales and reads are all down, despite a recent release.


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## shellabee

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> But here's my wonkiness if you want to call it that. I checked my stats a couple of hours ago and I had about 200 page reads. All of a sudden, I have 1673 page reads. Most of those are for a trilogy of full-length novels. No one person could have read all three books in about three hours although there are some very fast readers out there.


That could be a case of a reader who's had a few books on his or her device and ready them over the past week or two but didn't sync until today. The 1400+ reads accumulated on the device until the Kindle could call home.

At least that's how I understand it works.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

shellabee said:


> That could be a case of a reader who's had a few books on his or her device and ready them over the past week or two but didn't sync until today. The 1400+ reads accumulated on the device until the Kindle could call home.
> 
> At least that's how I understand it works.


You're probably right.


----------



## Crystal_

I do a lot of promos, so it's hard to say definitively. Overall, my pages look about 10-20% lower than what they should be given the rank and sales. That's not enough to tell me there is a reporting issue. On the book I updated in September specifically, the pages look about 20-30% too lower for the ranking/sales (compared to previous months). That's within the margin of error to where it could be me/something other than a page reporting issue, but it's more of a clear difference than the overall pages.


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## Queen Mab

I have more reads reported on the month to date sales report than I do on the graph today, which is confusing, but at least the numbers are going up! Like some others in this thread, I just came off a cross-promo and was waiting to see what would happen.


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## LittleFox

I write Urban Fantasy (for those who were looking at genre). 

My pages read went from a steady 1500 - 2500 a day, to 20 on September 12th. I ran a promo on September 16th and got 45 sales then, 12 sales day 2. There was a total of 150 pages read over that weekend, and they went back down to 0 for the following week. They started to rise up to 100 ish a day on September 26th, and are beginning to return to above 1000 a day now. I emailed them about the problem August 18th and received no reply, but now I'm concerned about their reporting and potential income lost over those missing days.


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## Christy777

I just published a new novella Friday night. It got up to the 13,000 rank and has had 27 sales, but only 170 pages read in total! The book is 135 KENCP, and my sister checked out the book and read it on day one (and synced her device) so that accounts for 135 pages read right there.

In the meantime, I have SHORT STORIES published over a year ago with 0 sales with a rank in the 100,000s that are getting 160 pages and 35 page reads. Short stories selling 0 to 1 copies published over a year ago, are beating my new release in page reads for the day. 

I know I'm small time, but sheesh.


----------



## Lydniz

I thought I wasn't affected, because my figures are normal overall, but I've just looked at my pen name and seen that pages read on one book (released in June) dropped from a steadyish 500-1500 per day to nearly zero for about a week around 5 September. They seem to be back to normal now, though.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Has anyone checked to see if the page reads are missing just from .com, or on all the Amazon platforms? I've got a minuscule number of page reads, but they are on Amazon UK and nothing on .com.


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## RinG

It occurs to me that perhaps Amazon is trying to change something to deal with the the 'skip to the end counts as a full read' issue that the spammers have been playing on, but is messing up and missing genuine reads?


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## PearlEarringLady

Rinelle Grey said:


> It occurs to me that perhaps Amazon is trying to change something to deal with the the 'skip to the end counts as a full read' issue that the spammers have been playing on, but is messing up and missing genuine reads?


This is my guess, too. There was a lot of talk at one time about how easy it would be to bury markers in the book and use those as a guide to exact amounts read, rather than the last page read number. But if the placement of markers or the reading of them is out of kilter, you could see these effects.


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## RinG

Even if they're just trying to set a time started/time finished, it could easily be too slow for a prolific reader.

I still can't tell if my pages are down or not. I'm inclined to say they are, since I'm seeing no page reads bump for my new release, but it's so hard to say for sure!


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Rinelle Grey said:


> Even if they're just trying to set a time started/time finished, it could easily be too slow for a prolific reader.


Good point. I hadn't thought of that. There was some talk that a lot of romance writers are affected, and they do tend to be very prolific and fast readers.



> I still can't tell if my pages are down or not. I'm inclined to say they are, since I'm seeing no page reads bump for my new release, but it's so hard to say for sure!


I'm in the same postion. The pages read for the new fantasy are nowhere near what I'd expect, compared with the last 3 releases, but this could just be a duff book, who know?


----------



## JessieVerona

A friend had a heavy promo push this last week and gave me these numbers. This book of hers is approximately a year old so whatever is going on it's definitely hitting older books as well as those released recently.

Her book has 460 KENPC. Promo results:

54 sales and 1,834 pages read
840 sales and 6,421 pages read (book reached rank of 88 paid at .com store)
124 sales and 9,035 pages read (reached ranks between 150 and 250)

She said in August this same book was averaging 5,000 to 6,000 page reads per day on an average of only 7 sales per day. 

Page reads are clearly broken. I'm not sure how authors remain in KU if this isn't fixed immediately.


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## badtothebone

I'm aware of a CURRENT top 100 Amazon US overall author with over 700 sales and just 10K in page reads. Things are broken.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Yup, 'Zon is kinda FUBAR'd right now. Noticed it in early September & wasn't sure at the time, but then ran a FFP Promo & knew for sure (Thanks to Phoenix!). Been watching and things are still wonky.  I might be an outlier thought, since I just pulled four books from wide & put them in KU, and I also have several pre-orders & a new release in KU. 
The past three days have looked suddenly better, but I'm holding my breath right now and hoping I did not make a mistake putting 4 of my breadwinner books in KU.

Of course, falling smack on my face is usually how I learn my lessons, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is some major change going on with KU calculations for page reads.


----------



## Becca Fanning

It's very important that if you notice a problem with your page reads that you reach out to Amazon to let them know. Please don't wait for others. It's possible that each situation needs it's own investigation and that there will be no blanket solution.

Not every author who has emailed in has gotten satisfaction, but *no author who has remained silent has gotten satisfaction*.

-Bec


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## RinG

My biggest problem is how do I know for sure that I'm having an issue? I'm still seeing some page reads. Not as much as my last release, but it was the last in a serial, this is the first in a related one. And it's been 6 months since then. I just really can't tell for sure. It's very frustrating!


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Rinelle Grey said:


> It occurs to me that perhaps Amazon is trying to change something to deal with the the 'skip to the end counts as a full read' issue that the spammers have been playing on, but is messing up and missing genuine reads?


This affects me as a reader. Sometimes I get ansty when reading a mystery and I skip to the end. I usually read the last two chapters. If it's interesting, I'll go back and read the chapters I skipped over. Sometimes, and this holds for any genre, I'll get bored with the book but still want to know the ending so I'll skip and read the last two chapters. I'm definitely not doing this to create artificial page reads. Just my reading habit.


----------



## Becca Fanning

Rinelle Grey said:


> My biggest problem is how do I know for sure that I'm having an issue? I'm still seeing some page reads. Not as much as my last release, but it was the last in a serial, this is the first in a related one. And it's been 6 months since then. I just really can't tell for sure. It's very frustrating!


None of us know for sure. We don't have borrow information, and that's on purpose. All we can do is look at patterns and be confident in our books and concerned about our future as KDP Select Authors.

I just got the "everything is fine with your reports" response, ten days after sending my email. I immediately replied, thanking the person for their hard work but insisting that this be elevated to a higher tier of support. I explained that I had borrowed my own book and flipped through it, but those pages never appeared in my report. I made mention that hundreds of authors are now comparing data and we're all seeing the same thing, and that we are aware that there is something wrong enough with their reporting that their legal department has to get involved.

I ended it by providing more data and making it clear that I've built my writing business around KDP Select, I'm a KDP All Star and I require the same diligence as any other author.


----------



## A Woman&#039;s Place Is In The Rebellion

ebbrown said:


> Yup, 'Zon is kinda FUBAR'd right now. Noticed it in early September & wasn't sure at the time, but then ran a FFP Promo & knew for sure (Thanks to Phoenix!). Been watching and things are still wonky. I might be an outlier thought, since I just pulled four books from wide & put them in KU, and I also have several pre-orders & a new release in KU.
> The past three days have looked suddenly better, but I'm holding my breath right now and hoping I did not make a mistake putting 4 of my breadwinner books in KU.
> 
> Of course, falling smack on my face is usually how I learn my lessons, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is some major change going on with KU calculations for page reads.


This is me. Naturally, I recently put my 2 romance series into KU (that pen name has always been wide) and have been shocked by the lack of page reads, even after promo. My income in Sept is...scary. Keep an eye on BB ads everyone--now that I have access to them, the whole system is sure to fall apart!


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## KaraKing

My rankings on both my kindle titles have plummeted to levels I haven't seen in years. Still no response from Kdp and my book is still in the review process! It's like it's stuck in review mode. Something is going on over there. 

Am I the only one whose rankings have fallen way down? From the 800's to 3800 today!!! I was 2800 yesterday. When will it stop?  

It seems those being affected are either  new releases or have made changes to their titles recently. Anyone not in these two categories having issues?


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## Going Incognito

KaraKing said:


> It seems those being affected are either new releases or have made changes to their titles recently. Anyone not in these two categories having issues?


If you mean that the author as a whole is tanking after a new release and/or making changes, then that's me, too. But if you mean just the new release titles or updated titles are crashing, then no. Every title I have is nosediving, new or old, untouched or updated. Nosediving HARD. I've gone from a very solid $20k a month income for over a year to $5k in the throwing of an Amazon switch. I'm now at a very steady average that is exactly 1/4 of my normal.


----------



## Steven Kelliher

I mean ... is there any legal action that can be taken?

I'm a very small fish in this pond, but dropping from an average of 1k pagereads per day for 6 weeks with NO PROMOS down to zero, is strange to say the least. 

Everyone who was reading the book finished it on the same day? And nobody else has picked it up despite sales?

Seems bigger authors here have much more legit statistics to show them. I don't like the fact that we have no way of knowing how accurate (nor not) Amazon's reporting is.


----------



## JalexM

Amazon has been having alot of problems lately, from also boughts and also views being interswitched, to series pages being messed up, and now to pages read, I just released a new book and I've never been sticky before but i've gotten an average of 500 pages read a day since tuesday, but it's a new release so i'm not sure if that's bad or good yet.


----------



## Going Incognito

Oh, and I don't do anything scammy. No click to the ends. Nothing.


----------



## Becca Fanning

WasAnn said:


> While that is certainly true, the sad fact is that a lot of us aren't big enough names to get the same kind of diligence from Zon. Many of us will get an "everything is fine" email and no matter how much we stomp and ask to speak to the manager, we will get put on the bottom of the pile while those who have some pull are taken care of.
> 
> So, if one of those that can get serious attention from KDP would let those of us who get nothing more than a pat on the head know what they find out, it would be a kindness.


I understand the sentiment but I disagree. I know the author that pushed and pushed and got someone to admit something was wrong. Their books are very good, but they're a rising star, not quite on Amazon's radar. The only thing that mattered was that they persevered where I (and others) had given up. You and Amazon have a business relationship, and if you operate in good faith with them then you can demand the same from them. It doesn't matter if you sold one book two years ago or if you're selling hundreds a day.

Don't count yourself short.


----------



## Crystal_

WasAnn said:


> While that is certainly true, the sad fact is that a lot of us aren't big enough names to get the same kind of diligence from Zon. Many of us will get an "everything is fine" email and no matter how much we stomp and ask to speak to the manager, we will get put on the bottom of the pile while those who have some pull are taken care of.
> 
> So, if one of those that can get serious attention from KDP would let those of us who get nothing more than a pat on the head know what they find out, it would be a kindness.


If enough authors contact them, they'll have to look into it. I'm planning on sending a detailed email as soon as I'm at my computer (currently traveling). A lot of Kboards authors are big authors. I'm someone no one has heard of and I've nabbed one of the top 50 All Star bonuses for the last few months.


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## eroticatorium

I emailed them yesterday about books stuck in review for several days now, and they said they are aware of issues but will take five days to get back to me (they've already been in review for three days, so this totally sucks, they'd be earning cash right now, it's a niche that's blowing up).


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## Moist_Tissue

My bet is some engineer, in a good faith effort to automate and expedite the upload approval process, accidentally tinkered with something that affected page reads. As a result, there is probably manual review, approval, and tallying of pages. Just a wild guess.


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## Becca Fanning

It's also worth mentioning that September's money will be the last we get until AFTER the holiday season. For some of us, pages lost are Christmas presents that can't be afforded.


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## JaclynDolamore

I only have one title of note and it's been moving up the charts basically since the beginning of September, so I can't tell what "normal" page reads should look like. Maybe they should be even better, for all I know. That's what is disturbing about this... I don't know that I should email them, because my page reads look reasonably solid, but if this is affecting so many people it's hard to feel confident...


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## Becca Mills

Moist_Tissue said:


> My bet is some engineer, in a good faith effort to automate and expedite the upload approval process, accidentally tinkered with something that affected page reads. As a result, there is probably manual review, approval, and tallying of pages. Just a wild guess.


It could also be, as Rinelle said, that they're trying to implement a system that really does keep track of pages-read incrementally, not just at the end. Maybe they broke or clogged up the reporting while tinkering with it? If a new tracking system requires changes to each ebook's coding, that might explain why the problem seems to be affecting new releases in particular: new releases have the new coding, but older books are still being reported in the old way. (All total guesses on my part, of course.)



Rinelle Grey said:


> My biggest problem is how do I know for sure that I'm having an issue? I'm still seeing some page reads. Not as much as my last release, but it was the last in a serial, this is the first in a related one. And it's been 6 months since then. I just really can't tell for sure. It's very frustrating!


See, this is why this problem is so serious, IMO. We need to be able to trust the reporting system. Everyone understands (or should understand) that glitches happen, but Amazon's vendors have to be able to trust that, in the end, they will be paid for every digital product sold. Since digital commerce is functionally invisible, trust is key. Problems like this break trust. Now every single KU author is looking at their pages-read and wondering. Terrible.


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## 77071

I don't know if this is related, but there's some wonkiness in the Amazon wish list area, for me at least.  It hasn't added anything for at least 24 hours, even when it says it's been added (or re-added).


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## unkownwriter

Becca Fanning said:


> It's also worth mentioning that September's money will be the last we get until AFTER the holiday season. For some of us, pages lost are Christmas presents that can't be afforded.


Yeah, and for some of us, it's food that won't be on the table, but, prawn.

I've spent the morning going through my statements since May, and as far as I can tell, my issue is with Book Report. They're off on some things, but not enough for me to have panicked.

I truly have no idea if my page reads are messed up or if it's just that my niche market isn't interested in my stuff any more. Normally, a new release would bring all the previous books back up, but it didn't happen this time. The last of those I'd released was in late May, so I probably lost momentum.

In August, I had a new novel out (different pen name), which made for a decent month considering everything else. September was sucky. I had eight sales and five returns. I've only had five returns over the last five years!

Anyway, I'm just going to keep plugging away and try to meet my goals for this month. Whatever is going on, I hope it works out soon, because this sort of thing, without any explanation from Amazon, is crazy.


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## dianapersaud

Moist_Tissue said:


> *My bet is some engineer, in a good faith effort to automate and expedite the upload approval process, accidentally tinkered with something that affected page reads. *As a result, there is probably manual review, approval, and tallying of pages. Just a wild guess.


This is why there should be quality control testing BEFORE the "update" is released and live.
Somebody (or maybe a group) didn't do a thorough job.

My husband works in quality control (not for Amazon) and is crazy good at finding issues and he always catches errors when Engineering does "small" fixes. You would be surprised at how often "small fixes" create large problems.


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## Becca Fanning

I just called into Amazon (866-216-1072) and went to an operator. I told the person that I was a KDP Author and needed to speak to someone in their KDP tech support department. I was quickly transferred and spoke to a nice gentleman who asked me for some of my ASINs.

I gave him two or three egregious offenders (though not any dates, just the ASINs). He asked me if I knew that I only got page reads for borrows and not sales. I confirmed that I understood that. He put me on hold for a minute or two then came back and said that there is an ongoing problem on the pages appearing in the reports and that he would have to transfer my information to another department so they could go over it.

HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART: They are only checking ASINs that they are made aware of via phone. I had sent them several ASINs via email and they sent me back the boilerplate everything is fine email. Only when I called in and gave them ASINs did they agree to check them. I confirmed that they will only check the ASINs I give them, so I gave them the last 20 books I published.

Emails might not be enough: you should call in.


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## AllyWho

Becca Fanning said:


> Emails might not be enough: you should call in.


Not everyone lives in the US. Calling Amazon might not be an option for many international prawns, who firstly don't have historical data to "know" something is wrong with reads, and secondly (because they are prawns) can't afford a horrifically expensive call to Amazon.


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## Becca Fanning

AliceW said:


> Not everyone lives in the US. Calling Amazon might not be an option for many international prawns, who firstly don't have historical data to "know" something is wrong with reads, and secondly (because they are prawns) can't afford a horrifically expensive call to Amazon.


I know sometimes KDP will authorize your account for direct phone support. An author under those circumstances might be able to request a phone call from them? I don't know otherwise, sorry.


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## bbhamel

FOR ANYONE UNSURE:

Go into your authorcentral account and find a few books that look like the book that might be problematic (as many as you can; even just 1 similar book would be fine). If they're of a similar kenpc length and genre, that's ideal, but get what you can. Then go compare those books in your bookreport (or whatever you use to track this data) and grab their ranks off authorcentral to make sure they're equivalent. I took days 4, 5, and 6 of four books and compared them to days 4, 5, and 6 of a book I believe has issues. I found the book ranked similarly (within 30 slots), had an almost identical kenpc, and was on the same pen as two of the books, but had 50% fewer pages read. That trend continued for the book's lifespan, never improving to the point where it would be reasonable to assume anything but a glitch.

This issue seems to only be effecting people that launched after September 5th, so if your backlist titles look normal, that's fine.


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## Steven Kelliher

Piggybacking on Becca's post ^^^

I just called in and finally got transferred to the KDP office. The man I spoke with assured me that Amazon is aware of the problem and has received a lot of Emails and calls this week about it. He actually said it has been "elevated far above my position, to our highest team."

That, folks, leads me to believe this is a big, big deal and has been identifies as a major problem by Amazon. He assured me my complaint would be escalated to that team and I should be called or Emailed by them without a form response. 

I'll update here when/if that happens. 

Glad other (bigger) authors wrote about it here. I was just assuming my pagereads dropped off. I'm a noob. But, then again, it doesn't make sense that I went from an avg. of about 700 pages per day to goose eggs.


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## bobfrost

More back and forth emails with Amazon. First assurances that there are no problems, and now...

An email stating that their technical team is looking into it.

Ugg


----------



## Sam Kates

AliceW said:


> Not everyone lives in the US. Calling Amazon might not be an option for many international prawns, who firstly don't have historical data to "know" something is wrong with reads, and secondly (because they are prawns) can't afford a horrifically expensive call to Amazon.


Yep - that pretty much describes me.


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## Patty Jansen

Sam Kates said:


> Yep - that pretty much describes me.


Seriously, you guys never heard of Skype? I dropped $20 in my account in early 2015, called the US tax office (spent about 40 minutes listening to some daft recorded info while being on hold), and ring a relative in Europe every month and talk for about 30 minutes, and the money still hasn't run out. These are all people who don't have Skype. It just produces a local phone call on your behalf.


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## McKinneyAuthor

I published a novella on Sept 26 and minus a few buys from relatives, it's been dead in the water. As my first published work, I had chalked it up to not having a dedicated following yet. However, with it being in KU, I had expected some borrows and reads at the very least. I've only received one page view outside of my husband reading a few pages to see if they would show up, and it seems they did. I've noticed my ranking going up and down, so now I'm wondering if my page reads aren't showing up either. Either way, I hope this is resolved soon. I can't tell if anything is wrong with my reports because I have no prior releases to compare it to.


----------



## Sam Kates

Patty Jansen said:


> Seriously, you guys never heard of Skype? I dropped $20 in my account in early 2015, called the US tax office (spent about 40 minutes listening to some daft recorded info while being on hold), and ring a relative in Europe every month and talk for about 30 minutes, and the money still hasn't run out. These are all people who don't have Skype. It just produces a local phone call one your behalf.


Not so much the money (though I have to be choosy where I spend my dosh), but the time differences and working full-time, blah, blah, blah. The biggest for me is the lack of historic data - only just started self-pubbing again (most of my titles are with a small press, and wide) and haven't been in KU long enough to build up a clear picture. Even so, something seems off - I'd just struggle to convince Amazon of it.

From nowhere, 71 page reads appeared today, but _for yesterday_, and they haven't affected the novella's ranking one iota. It's screwy.

Will continue to follow this thread with interest.


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## 9 Diamonds

Thanks for the alert and all the advice on this. I'll drop them an email straightaway.


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## JVRudnick

Like others I too am off by thousands daily...so I emailed and I just got this Hello,

This is a second email regarding the pages read.

In the answer email about the royalties and payments for the pages read of the book. The information indicated that all the numbers where right, at this moment we discover that there is a problem with the update of the information that is displayed in the system, because of this we will need more time to verify the numbers again and confirm that the amount of pages read is the right one.

Please note and keep in mind that this is not a problem that may cause the loss of royalties, is a problem in the up date of the system when the information is displayed. The team in charge of the records is going to take the case and will contact you with the proper information.

they will contact you in 24 - 48 hours.

Thank you --

So....i also see NEWLY added 5k worth of reads just in the past hours...

SO....call or email folks!


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## AllyWho

Patty Jansen said:


> Seriously, you guys never heard of Skype?


Skype doesn't work where I am. We don't have broadband out here, or even a cell signal. And it's tough when you are juggling children and other commitments to work around time zone differences. It doesn't seem logical to me that Amazon is ignoring emails and only a phone call will get through.


----------



## RedAlert

A display problem only??  I have been following this thread with increasing dismay.  It looks like Amazon is not exactly forthright.  Dang, what a shame.  If the various authors had not banded together, would Amazon have opted to correct the counts of those few that complained?

I'm in the camp that thinks KU 3.0 arrived broken.  I know that computer code can run to billions and one tiny thing can destroy a program.  But, SEPT 5TH??  That's a long time without a comment from Amazon.

They told JV that all the numbers in the first email results were correct, and that it was just an update problem.  They needed more time to confirm the numbers.  Then, they dump a few thousand reads to his account.  I guess the problem could be ongoing and catching up to today for his number count.  But, it doesn't make any sense.  I guess the take away is that the first email didn't do anything, and the second one produced a different answer.

"...because of this we will need more time to verify the numbers again and confirm that the amount of pages read is the right one."  Wut?  This is babble.

I recently bought a paperback from Amazon.  So far, it seems to be ready for delivery tomorrow by the USPS.  But, the USPS very carefully pointed out that it didn't necessarily vouch for whether the book was actually in their hands.  That book better show up!

I love buying stuff from Amazon.  They have literally never let me down.  The vendors are reliable.  I have only returned one item, because it was obvious that it was used, and in a category of item that it wasn't acceptable.  And that return was easy and unquestioned.  So, I am disheartened by all of this.  

Amazon needs to square this with its authors.  I propose that they put an extra million or so into the shared pot to make up for many, many authors not getting their due.  Increase that payout to ensure goodwill and trust returns to the 'Zon Universe.


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## SomeoneElse

RedAlert said:


> Amazon needs to square this with its authors. I propose that they put an extra million or so into the shared pot to make up for many, many authors not getting their due. Increase that payout to ensure goodwill and trust returns to the 'Zon Universe.


I for one will be very interested to see if the payout reflects a drop in page reads or not. (Either a smaller pot, or a higher payout per page or both.) Although, the mention upthread of a displaying problem gives me hope that Amazon still has the data somewhere, so hopefully they can sort everyone out.

As for me, I really don't know if I'm affected. September was my best month ever for page reads, but that was off the back of my first free promo and book 4 of my series coming out late August, so maybe it should have been higher? I had no new releases in Sept, but I did update 2 of my books.


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## katrina46

she-la-ti-da said:


> My page reads have basically died, but I put it off as not having released anything in that niche lately. Maybe there's something going on other than that, but I have no real basis to complain. But, I had eight sales reported, one was paid and two show as returns. What happened to the other five? No idea. I thought it was Book Report at first, but now I'm thinking it's on Amazon's end.


i'm not all in KU, so my page reads were never spectacular, but I went from maybe 7,000 a day to 30-100 page reads in September. It does seem odd. I didn't release in September because I was working on something for wide, but to dry up over night instead of tapering off gradually? Maybe I should send an email just to be on the safe side. All they can do is say it's fine you just sucked last month.


----------



## SidK

What email address are you guys sending the emails to?


----------



## Kate.

I've had a slightly different kind of weirdness. I don't know if it's related, but it started on Sept 5th.

Page reads began tending down despite sales remaining even. In addition, I've had a two-day spike every seven days (so a five day lull, two day spike) on the US Sunday and Monday. It's a substantial spike (>5k pages). I've never seen this before. Screenshot:


----------



## RedAlert

LSMay said:


> I for one will be very interested to see if the payout reflects a drop in page reads or not. (Either a smaller pot, or a higher payout per page or both.) Although, the mention upthread of a displaying problem gives me hope that Amazon still has the data somewhere, so hopefully they can sort everyone out.
> 
> *As for me, I really don't know if I'm affected.* September was my best month ever for page reads, but that was off the back of my first free promo and book 4 of my series coming out late August, so maybe it should have been higher? I had no new releases in Sept, but I did update 2 of my books.


Well, that is very worrisome. Amazon is stating a system-wide meltdown (again, I say that it is odd that it is lasting so long,) and I think the presumption should be that you are affected. Call them up, get a count, see what they say.

And, don't tell them that you aren't sure! You are not an exception, if they are truly having a system glitch of this magnitude. You are affected by virtue of being in KU, period. It's their fault. Have them do a manual count, or whatever they do. Seems like they are kicking it to higher powers for resolution. If you don't do it, you will never really know--and from this moment forward, you will always question your counts.


----------



## Richardcrasta

Not just KU, but non-KU sales reporting.

In September, i earned more on Google Play (with 10% or less of the market) than on Amazon, where I have many more titles, with 75% of the market. 

How could that be?


----------



## katrina46

Richardcrasta said:


> Not just KU, but non-KU sales reporting.
> 
> In September, i earned more on Google Play (with 10% or less of the market) than on Amazon, where I have many more titles, with 75% of the market.
> 
> How could that be?


Actually, I know quite a few authors who can say that. I myself have had better months on GP. Visibility is easier over there because it isn't so saturated. The algos are stickier and permafrees work great. It's one of my favorite sites to publish to.


----------



## RedAlert

Kate. said:


> I've had a slightly different kind of weirdness. I don't know if it's related, but it started on Sept 5th.
> 
> Page reads began tending down despite sales remaining even. In addition, I've had a two-day spike every seven days (so a five day lull, two day spike) on the US Sunday and Monday. It's a substantial spike (>5k pages). I've never seen this before. Screenshot:


I hope someone comments on this. That IS weird. Right there, right on the day. What is weird is it's a spike followed by a big drop. Except for the 5th, you have double days on each peak. It's like you have a slow leak.

It doesn't make any sense at all. If Amazon has a glitch in its counting system, why does your Kenp look like that? You have a uniform count of 5 days between each spike, as you slowly sink. I hope that other authors look at their graphs to see if there are similarities. That would be very interesting.

If anyone knows why about this, come back.


----------



## jhubbard

Kate. said:


> I've had a slightly different kind of weirdness. I don't know if it's related, but it started on Sept 5th.
> 
> Page reads began tending down despite sales remaining even. In addition, I've had a two-day spike every seven days (so a five day lull, two day spike) on the US Sunday and Monday. It's a substantial spike (>5k pages). I've never seen this before. Screenshot:


That is weird. Is there any chance that this could be related to school starting up - people (adults + kids) reading more on Saturday and Sunday, because the weekdays have become packed with stuff; then it records when they synch their devices (Sunday and Monday)? Maybe over the summer everyone's a little more freeform?


----------



## Kate.

jhubbard said:


> That is weird. Is there any chance that this could be related to school starting up - people (adults + kids) reading more on Saturday and Sunday, because the weekdays have become packed with stuff; then it records when they synch their devices (Sunday and Monday)? Maybe over the summer everyone's a little more freeform?


That's something I considered, but I've never seen it before. My numbers are usually fairly steady or have predictable lifts following promos, like in the first two thirds of the chart. (The climb around late July was from a new release.) I'd love to know if anyone else is seeing the same phenomenon.


----------



## RinG

I've seen spikes similar to this when page reads are falling. Not quite so regular though. Nothing I could predict.


----------



## 41419

Between the perma-issue of KU scammers, Also Bought/Also Viewed problems on books launched this summer, hundreds of thousands of books missing from Kindle Exclusives, and this issue with KU reporting (and generally plummeting KDP service levels), Amazon/KDP is having a hell of a time at the moment. 

Hope they right the ship, and soon.


----------



## thesmallprint

For lightning service, tell 'em your book's about drones.


----------



## katrina46

dgaughran said:


> Between the perma-issue of KU scammers, Also Bought/Also Viewed problems on books launched this summer, hundreds of thousands of books missing from Kindle Exclusives, and this issue with KU reporting (and generally plummeting KDP service levels), Amazon/KDP is having a hell of a time at the moment.
> 
> Hope they right the ship, and soon.


I just published part one of a serial a couple days ago. I wrote it for KU, but put it wide at the last minute until they fix some of these issues. It's already made me as much on Barnes and Nobles as I'm earning with these wonky page reads, so it was a no brainer.


----------



## Some Random Guy

So I wake up this morning and find an email from Amazon Accounts Payable concerning my royalties from the AU store.  I go to my online reports and see that they intend to pay me the Australian store royalties for August on October 5th!  Vurt da furk


----------



## Becca Fanning

Right now we, as authors, are in a great position. We've gotten them to now admit to most (all?) who call in that there is a problem on their end that requires further investigation. It sounds like the RWA might also reach out to Amazon on our behalf (an act which would have me join their ranks when otherwise I wouldn't have). This is all great.

But what happens next is tricky. 24 hours ago their official position was to try to get us to ignore the problem. Remember: 

"We’ve thoroughly reviewed all of your KU/ KOLL borrows and can confirm that the pages read displayed in your dashboard are accurate."

We might have enough of a foot in the door to press them to give us borrow numbers now. The real issue is credibility, and giving us more transparent access to our borrow information would do a lot to prevent these issues in the future. The best case for Amazon right now is to pump up the KDP pool for September and make it rain pages on us so we'll continue the status quo. The best case for authors is to press them to get better information.

I know that prior attempts to get this information have failed, but we've never had a tangible, demonstrable indication that Amazon has been less than competent with our data. Now we do.


----------



## shunterni

I'm not in KU but I followed the advice above and wrote in about my also-boughts not repopulating and the free status problems. Got an email back from Amazon saying they will be looking into things. Excuse me while I scoop my jaw off the floor.

I agree with Becca, if we're going to get accountability, the time is now. I want to put a book into KU next month, but I need to be able to trust my numbers. This is making me not trust them.


----------



## Going Incognito

Ok, somebody talk me off the ledge. Or push me over. 
I'm thinking about Becca's 'now may be the time' post, coinciding with Amazon making October 'Powered by Indies' month. With everything going on right now, from reporting issues to also boughts, everything, I'm thinking of getting a Twitter account. 
Tweeting things like

How many of my books were even borrowed? How much money is in the pot this time? Who's keeping Amazon honest? #poweredbyindie #for[expletive]ssake #KUWTF?

Or/and-

New release with no borrows? Still no response from Amazon. How is Amazon treating their indies? #poweredbyindie

Trust issues #poweredbyindies

Release the borrows! #poweredbyindie

Don't worry about the Amazon behind the curtain. Everything is reporting fine! #poweredbyindie

I deleted my email, is it powered by indie or indies?

Stuff like that. Maybe getting a group together? Retweeting each other's stuff? Linking to blog posts mentioned here with #poweredbyindie on it?

Good idea? Slitting my own throat?


----------



## ernestgordontaulbee

I'm willing to be the guinea pig here.

I put my novel _A Sibling in Always_ in KU in late July. Being literary fiction, I expected nothing but received over 4,000 page reads in August. It was doing near as well in September, then everything flat lined on the 23rd. That seems to be about the time everyone else started reporting problems.

I took the advice in this thread to heart and contacted Amazon yesterday, and I am waiting for them to reply.

I have only been in the KDP community for a few months. I am willing to be the gadfly who annoys KDP until the situation is resolved. Worse case scenario for me I am kicked off KDP and out of KU. Big whoop. I am not getting any traction anyway. If that happens I just "go wide," and publish through other means.

I love the opportunity KDP presents, but if it doesn't report accurately, I would prefer to try other options anway.


----------



## CassieL

Going Incognito said:


> Ok, somebody talk me off the ledge. Or push me over.
> I'm thinking about Becca's 'now may be the time' post, coinciding with Amazon making October 'Powered by Indies' month. With everything going on right now, from reporting issues to also boughts, everything, I'm thinking of getting a Twitter account.
> Tweeting things like
> 
> How many of my books were even borrowed? How much money is in the pot this time? Who's keeping Amazon honest? #poweredbyindie #for[expletive]ssake #KUWTF?
> 
> Or/and-
> 
> New release with no borrows? Still no response from Amazon. How is Amazon treating their indies? #poweredbyindie
> 
> Trust issues #poweredbyindies
> 
> Release the borrows! #poweredbyindie
> 
> Don't worry about the Amazon behind the curtain. Everything is reporting fine! #poweredbyindie
> 
> I deleted my email, is it powered by indie or indies?
> 
> Stuff like that. Maybe getting a group together? Retweeting each other's stuff? Linking to blog posts mentioned here with #poweredbyindie on it?
> 
> Good idea? Slitting my own throat?


IMHO? That's poor form. This is a business relationship. Treat it as such. There's a problem with your distributor, you take it up with them and give them a reasonable chance to fix it.


----------



## Not any more

I haven't released or updated anything in a long time. I make most of my money from a single 5-book series, including a 2-book bundle of the first two books and a 5-book boxed set. Generally 65-70% of my revenue is from page reads. Doing some analysis as suggested above:

400 KENP average per book,
Borrows/sales for the year = 1.69. (The first quarter wasn't very good and I didn't do much promoting)
Borrows/sales Apr.1-Aug.31 = 2.06
Borrows/sales Sept. 1-Oct. 4 = 1.07 (I ran a bunch of promos in Sept. and saw almost no results - gave away 780 books last weekend and I'm getting follow-on sales, but no reads)

Right now, I'm seeing a single dump of a few hundred pages read every morning and no updates until the following day. Should I assume that I've saturated my market? No one wants to read my books any more? So sad.


----------



## Going Incognito

Cassie Leigh said:


> IMHO? That's poor form. This is a business relationship. Treat it as such. There's a problem with your distributor, you take it up with them and give them a reasonable chance to fix it.


True. And I asked for honest opinions, I can totally understand that thought. Though my very first, sarcastic, thought is, 'have you met Amazon?'

They are only concerned with customer experience and public opinion. On the customer experience front, this isn't effecting customers/readers. They're buying/borrowing/reading unaware of any of this. Other than the fact that not knowing how many units are borrowed is a customer experience issue, public airing of indie laundry may be the only shot indies have of getting the borrow numbers.

No other distributor in the world can get away with the vendor asking, "how many units did you move for me?" by responding, "none of your business, just take this money based on our made up pot calculations."


----------



## Moist_Tissue

Amazon views authors are customers, too, which is why legal is involved at this point. I think folks should create a bulleted letter, listing every failure observed in the last year. Beginning with KU1 through the scamlets to the gazillion page bundles to high profile scams to now this. Highlight that your faith in Amazon as a business partner is shaken. Give them an ETA to respond with a resolution.

If they don't respond, share your experience--as a business owner--to your customer base.


----------



## LadyStarlight

Moist_Tissue said:


> Amazon views authors are customers, too, which is why legal is involved at this point. I think folks should create a bulleted letter, listing every failure observed in the last year. Beginning with KU1 through the scamlets to the gazillion page bundles to high profile scams to now this. Highlight that your faith in Amazon as a business partner is shaken. Give them an ETA to respond with a resolution.
> 
> If they don't respond, share your experience--as a business owner--to your customer base.


Bumping for support.


----------



## Becca Mills

ernestgordontaulbee said:


> I'm willing to be the guinea pig here.
> 
> I put my novel _A Sibling in Always_ in KU in late July. Being literary fiction, I expected nothing but received over 4,000 page reads in August. It was doing near as well in September, then everything flat lined on the 23rd. That seems to be about the time everyone else started reporting problems.
> 
> I took the advice in this thread to heart and contacted Amazon yesterday, and I am waiting for them to reply.
> 
> I have only been in the KDP community for a few months. I am willing to be the gadfly who annoys KDP until the situation is resolved. Worse case scenario for me I am kicked off KDP and out of KU. Big whoop. I am not getting any traction anyway. If that happens I just "go wide," and publish through other means.
> 
> I love the opportunity KDP presents, but if it doesn't report accurately, I would prefer to try other options anway.


What you're describing sounds more like falling off the 30-day cliff -- the end of sales/borrows produced by Amazon's promotion of your book on its new-releases list. If so, it's totally normal.


----------



## Guest

Going Incognito said:


> aybe getting a group together? Retweeting each other's stuff? Linking to blog posts mentioned here with #poweredbyindie on it?
> 
> Good idea? Slitting my own throat?


Bad idea for a few of reasons.

1) IF you wanted to attack Amazon guns blazing, it's only logical to do that if you are not doing business with them. 
2) Slitting your own throat? Maybe, who knows how easy it would be for them to mess with your visibility in the store
3) If anything, this could ruin your rep with readers as they wonder why you are on Amazon if you have such issues with them that you feel the need to attack them aggressively in public. 
4) I think it's perfectly legit to blog about what is going on and your views on the issue. The options aren't silence or mob attack... there is a middle ground. 
5) Ultimately, Amazon may not yet understand what is happening. They respond to emails and phone calls. They aren't doing this on purpose (we have to assume). So something broke in the system and until they know what it is and can fix it, they can't offer much guidance.

Lastly, if this doesn't resolve itself, you don't have to worry about starting a twitter campaign, it will happen of its own accord.

I got destroyed in this glitch (KU reads dropped to zero on the 15th and only started coming back a few days ago). But until I see evidence that Amazon is ignoring the problem or pretending it doesn't exist (which they aren't, they acknowledged the problem to me in an email) then all I can do is sit tight for a bit.


----------



## S.R.

Going Incognito said:


> Ok, somebody talk me off the ledge. Or push me over.
> I'm thinking about Becca's 'now may be the time' post, coinciding with Amazon making October 'Powered by Indies' month. With everything going on right now, from reporting issues to also boughts, everything, I'm thinking of getting a Twitter account.
> Tweeting things like
> 
> How many of my books were even borrowed? How much money is in the pot this time? Who's keeping Amazon honest? #poweredbyindie #for[expletive]ssake #KUWTF?... ...
> 
> Good idea? Slitting my own throat?


I completely get the frustration that leads to a temptation to do something like this...but I wouldn't recommend it.

I had an econ professor in business school who I think summed up the best option when it comes to situations like this. He told the story of a company that had a poor working environment (for various reasons). Ultimately, the company went from being on the top of its game to suffering financial losses because it was so dependent on the intellectual property of the employees it treated so poorly - and those employees began leaving in droves.

_*"They didn't understand that their most important assets had feet"*_ was his summation of the company's undoing.

KU assets also have feet. As long as authors stick with the program, Amazon is not incented to change. If they lose enough authors from the program that they begin losing subscribers... they'll have an incentive to look at changes that would bring authors back to the program. Until that happens, I don't expect much to change in our favor.

Admittedly, I have little to lose by leaving KU, I had two books in the program for a short stint and had already unchecked the renewal box before this latest debacle began to unravel. I've got 10 days before I can take my books wide...and watching all of this just makes me more determined to build a broader base for my platform.


----------



## Going Incognito

Ok, fair enough. I'm going to go simmer down and pour my grand over the top ideas into writing my next chapter, where, in fiction, it has a chance at actually changing the world and helping the guy get the girl. That way, when this stuff does calm down, I'll have more product to peddle. 
Thank you all.


----------



## GARael

brkingsolver said:


> I haven't released or updated anything in a long time. I make most of my money from a single 5-book series, including a 2-book bundle of the first two books and a 5-book boxed set. Generally 65-70% of my revenue is from page reads. Doing some analysis as suggested above:
> 
> 400 KENP average per book,
> Borrows/sales for the year = 1.69. (The first quarter wasn't very good and I didn't do much promoting)
> Borrows/sales Apr.1-Aug.31 = 2.06
> Borrows/sales Sept. 1-Oct. 4 = 1.07 (I ran a bunch of promos in Sept. and saw almost no results - gave away 780 books last weekend and I'm getting follow-on sales, but no reads)
> 
> Right now, I'm seeing a single dump of a few hundred pages read every morning and no updates until the following day. Should I assume that I've saturated my market? No one wants to read my books any more? So sad.


This sounds similar to what's been happening with one of my series. About 75% of my revenue is from page reads as well, and lately, I've been at about a tenth of my "bad day" page numbers. Makes me a bit wary to put an upcoming 3-book series into KU until this is all sorted out.


----------



## eroticatorium

What are you guys actually saying in your emails? They finally got back to me and said there is no problem.


----------



## phil1861

eroticatorium said:


> What are you guys actually saying in your emails? They finally got back to me and said there is no problem.


I got the same from an email, nothing to see here (could have been as I can't tell if there is/isn't an issue provided what limited intel I have) but I also called the number.

The annoying thing is, I had to pass through: a triage (who was pretty chatty and personable), a level one who couldn't help with anything, a level two who also couldn't help with anything but who promised he was going to raise my request to the next highest level.

Levels one and two have 0 visibility into your book's account and had only visibility into what I have, my kdp console information. As I also had another issue with visibility after a free run that has tanked my rank, both levels could only shrug their shoulders and tell me they didn't know what the algos do and were responsible for, couldn't tell me what also bought lists my book showed on or used to show on, and can't do anything about it if it was a problem. The only thing he could do was have their level 3 support get back on the reporting issue.

At the moment, waiting to see if this produces anything at all.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## eroticatorium

WasAnn said:


> I'm pretty sure that's close to what a lot of us got. This time I wrote with the ASINs and that I already knew there was a significant and widespread problem, that I didn't want to hear that everything is fine, that it needed to be escalated right up to the team investigating it for the other thousand or so authors who also have the problem. We'll see what I get back this time.


I replied back with one recently published book and gave an ASIN, but that still annoys me. I have more than 1000 books in KU. Do I need to send an email about each of them? Do I have to call and try to read each ASIN out over the phone? C'mon, amazon, just admit there's a problem and tell us how long it will take to fix it.


----------



## Becca Fanning

To try to get our borrow information, our message needs to come from the right place, be concise and be seen by the right people.

Venue: I don't think tweets will accomplish much. It's too complicated of an issue happening to too small of a demographic for it to go viral. I think Facebook is the better avenue: we all have a presence there and most of our readership does as well. It also lends itself better to more lengthy messages.

Message: It's gotta be quick and concise. We want to communicate to laypeople what the problem is and why they should care. The problem is Amazon has seemingly lost track of credit that should be paid to authors, and that makes authors want to leave Amazon. So we want to know how many customers are borrowing our books, like we used to. I think some kind of graphic with text overlay, those are popular on Facebook. Then a paragraph with our Call to Action. Our call to action should include a pre-written email that readers can fire off to [email protected] 

Audience: Facebook and, if we really want it to have an impact, our mailing lists. We might lose a few subscribers, but I think our readers want us to succeed and be compensated by the fifth largest corporation in the world. I think they'll be ok with one email about an issue that really affects us in an immediate way. Harnessing the power of our mailing lists means each of our voices gets multiplied by dozens to thousands.


----------



## anotherpage

Becca Fanning said:


> Right now we, as authors, are in a great position. We've gotten them to now admit to most (all?) who call in that there is a problem on their end that requires further investigation. It sounds like the RWA might also reach out to Amazon on our behalf (an act which would have me join their ranks when otherwise I wouldn't have). This is all great.
> 
> But what happens next is tricky. 24 hours ago their official position was to try to get us to ignore the problem. Remember:
> 
> "We've thoroughly reviewed all of your KU/ KOLL borrows and can confirm that the pages read displayed in your dashboard are accurate."
> 
> We might have enough of a foot in the door to press them to give us borrow numbers now. The real issue is credibility, and giving us more transparent access to our borrow information would do a lot to prevent these issues in the future. The best case for Amazon right now is to pump up the KDP pool for September and make it rain pages on us so we'll continue the status quo. The best case for authors is to press them to get better information.
> 
> I know that prior attempts to get this information have failed, but we've never had a tangible, demonstrable indication that Amazon has been less than competent with our data. Now we do.


If your reports excel matches the inside. Its accurate. No author can start stating i should have got X amount of reads this month. That's bogus as no one can determine what readers do. As long as the KU reads match the excel its accurate.


----------



## ashleyrose

If Amazon is saying there is no problem, then why put any more books in Select?  If we would stop using that program, the program would not have inventory and would disappear.  Right?  Nothing new from me is touching Select until the problem is fixed...and there is definitely a problem.


----------



## AllyWho

lostones said:


> No author can start stating i should have got X amount of reads this month. That's bogus as no one can determine what readers do...


This is my concern with demanding to know borrows - how does that help? I can see authors then assuming every single borrow should result in a full count of pages read. But readers don't all sit down and read 100% of a book as soon as they borrow it. You cannot know the particular behaviour of every reader. Personally I think demanding to know borrows is simply going to muddy the water further. What author wants to be told they have a high number of borrows and few pages read because readers are abandoning the book? Knowing number of borrows (presupposing Amazon would ever release that data) will create a whole different set of problems.


----------



## lyndabelle

Wow! Look what happens when you're away from the board for the weekend. 

I had lower KU page reads and thought it was because of my first review for my new release being a one star. (Not the best way to start a release, of course) And I released one of my top selling series as an omnibus edition on Sept. 12, which seemed to be doing well. The next week, things tanked. But the one star was on Sept. 21. So, thought things were horrible because of that. (I have gotten another better review which has helped the ranking, but the damage may be done). So, maybe the bugs have been worked out cause the page reads have started up again over the weekend for me, but there haven't been any the last two days. I know when a new month starts, it's like things reset. I did a promo at the beginning of Sept. thinking it would help the new release too. 

September was a very weird month!

And if October is Indie Month, I haven't really seen any advertising for it on Amazon. I've only seen the library events going on. I don't even think Barnes and Noble is getting in on the Indie Month thing either. Maybe some are with local authors. Will have to check out.

I'll have to watch my reads and see if they go up some. Sort of glad I planned the next promo near the end of the month with Halloween so all this can get sorted out first. Makes me wonder what could be going on. Thanks for the heads up. Will follow the thread to see what happens.


----------



## Becca Mills

AliceW said:


> What author wants to be told they have a high number of borrows and few pages read because readers are abandoning the book?


Er ... <raises hand>

Not that I'm in KU, but that seems like a pretty darned valuable piece of feedback to get.


----------



## AllyWho

Becca Mills said:


> Not that I'm in KU, but that seems like a pretty darned valuable piece of feedback to get.


The problem is bulk data will cause more problems, if Amazon simply said you had X borrows. You are going to need to know the number of pages read for each individual borrow for it to have any value. Otherwise all you can do is divide pages read by borrows and approximate how many pages each reader makes it through. Which is exactly what many of us do now, by dividing pages read by KENPC to approx number of borrows (which will always return a conservative number of borrows as it assumes every one is a full read). I can see the tears and tantrums now as indies protest their book is a work of art and of course every reader reads every single page, how can they possibly only have Y reads with X borrows? Then there will be emails demanding another investigation, more data etc.

If you want feedback about if people are reading the book or abandoning it there are other ways that are within your control, to seek that feedback. Don't rely on Amazon to hand you data about your reader behaviour or to provide you with feedback about the quality of your story.


----------



## JalexM

AliceW said:


> The problem is bulk data will cause more problems, if Amazon simply said you had X borrows. You are going to need to know the number of pages read for each individual borrow for it to have any value. Otherwise all you can do is divide pages read by borrows and approximate how many pages each reader makes it through. Which is exactly what many of us do now, by dividing pages read by KENPC to approx number of borrows (which will always return a conservative number of borrows as it assumes every one is a full read). I can see the tears and tantrums now as indies protest their book is a work of art and of course every reader reads every single page, how can they possibly only have Y reads with X borrows? Then there will be emails demanding another investigation, more data etc.
> 
> If you want feedback about if people are reading the book or abandoning it there are other ways that are within your control, to seek that feedback. Don't rely on Amazon to hand you data about your reader behaviour or to provide you with feedback about the quality of your story.


This is a poor argument seeing how we used to see how many borrows we got when we were paid at 10% read instead by the page. It is valuable to know if the problem is your book or if you're getting any borrows at all.


----------



## A past poster

I'm coming to this thread late, and I confess that I haven't read every page. Thankfully, I have only one book in KU, and I'm taking it out as soon as the term is up. What has surprised me--shocked me, really--is that  corrections won't be made to KU books unless the authors call Amazon KDP directly. Unless I don't understand what's going on here, what it means essentially is that thousands of authors whose books are in KU who don't read kboards or participate in other forums may never find out that there is a glitch; or they may suspect that something is wrong but they may not handle it effectively by calling KDP. In other words, they may not get what is due them.


----------



## Crystal_

JalexM said:


> This is a poor argument seeing how we used to see how many borrows we got when we were paid at 10% read instead by the page. It is valuable to know if the problem is your book or if you're getting any borrows at all.


We saw how many borrows we got where people read to 10%. We didn't see the borrows where people read 0-9.9%.


----------



## JalexM

Crystal_ said:


> We saw how many borrows we got where people read to 10%. We didn't see the borrows where people read 0-9.9%.


It's still a better data point than not seeing borrows at all.


----------



## Not any more

Response from Amazon Executive Customer Relations:

"I understand you are concerned about lower than expected pages read in your reports. We’ve thoroughly reviewed all of your KU/ KOLL borrows and can confirm that the pages read displayed in your dashboard are accurate."

That's disappointing since all of my books just renewed. Going to uncheck that auto-renew now.


----------



## KaraKing

brkingsolver said:


> Response from Amazon Executive Customer Relations:
> 
> "I understand you are concerned about lower than expected pages read in your reports. We've thoroughly reviewed all of your KU/ KOLL borrows and can confirm that the pages read displayed in your dashboard are accurate."
> 
> That's disappointing since all of my books just renewed. Going to uncheck that auto-renew now.


I just got the same lame response. 

I wrote back asking to be escalated to management. I will try calling tomorrow. If they don't fix this issue And continue to deny there is a problem then I am out of Select ASAP. I've been loyal to select for almost 5 years but this is ridiculous. I don't mind the wonkiness. I know mistakes happen but the denial and brushing us aside is what makes me really upset.


----------



## LadyG

brkingsolver said:


> Response from Amazon Executive Customer Relations:
> 
> "I understand you are concerned about lower than expected pages read in your reports. We've thoroughly reviewed all of your KU/ KOLL borrows and can confirm that the pages read displayed in your dashboard are accurate."
> 
> That's disappointing since all of my books just renewed. Going to uncheck that auto-renew now.


I just got the same response. And today, after 9 days of zero pages read, I'm suddenly showing 128 pages from my least popular book. Odd.


----------



## RedAlert

It's fundamentally unfair to not be able to see all the data.  It shouldn't be a trade secret when the author just wants to improve his/her product and create a good customer relationship--good for the author, good for Amazon.  And also, wants to get paid for their work, if only a little per page.  Hey, it's their system, they made it up, they're the ones implementing it.  They need to fix it forthwith.

It's a control issue.  It's also a trust issue.  It's a business model that works in favor of Amazon.  The right book can make a mint in KU.  That's why it's an attractive proposition.  And easy to use.  But, not if they are going to jack with the numbers.

I'm not in favor of public shaming campaigns.  So far, people have wanted to verify that there is a problem, and what exactly is wrong, and just, what's going on.  That's not so bad, publicly, not when authors' livelihoods are at stake.  But, you're not going to force Amazon to do anything.

Amazon probably doesn't want anyone to know anything about whatever is going on because authors will leave KU.  And someone in the food chain did something stupid, and he/she will not want it out there, either.

Okay, so there's the new Amazon AI:  that's who's at fault.  It figured out that stupid humans don't know their counts, anyway.  Good to go!

Did you know that Jeff Bezos is the second richest billionaire?  Expedite, and just email Jeff.  The minions will only tell you that the numbers are correct, and you get NOTHING.  After all, you don't know any different.  And, your money isn't even pocket change to Bezos.  Your money is the change the maid finds between his couch cushions.

I find it very hard to believe that Amazon has not fixed this problem since September 5th.  Very, very curious about this.

I think you have to bide a bit more.


----------



## Indiecognito

brkingsolver said:


> Response from Amazon Executive Customer Relations:
> 
> "I understand you are concerned about lower than expected pages read in your reports. We've thoroughly reviewed all of your KU/ KOLL borrows and can confirm that the pages read displayed in your dashboard are accurate."
> 
> That's disappointing since all of my books just renewed. Going to uncheck that auto-renew now.


Same reply today. Not happy at all.


----------



## JalexM

emilycantore said:


> Could those threadjacking to say they now want borrow information perhaps go start another thread?
> 
> This is about the KU page reads problem... not your desire to get more detailed data from Amazon. You think this is great leverage to demand a whole lot of stuff? Go right ahead... but let's keep this thread on track.
> 
> This is a serious issue that needs attention and we don't need to muddy the waters by thinking its leverage to get something else.
> 
> Back to the thread... I spent some time yesterday breaking down daily sales to page read ratios. Early September is when things suddenly jolted. A statistician would say there was a material change! Going from a ratio of 3:1 borrows:sales to 1:1 or reversed is incredibly suspect.


It's not thread jacking as if we did have borrow information we could figure out who exactly is having a problem and who is just having slow sales. It's related to the problem at hand.


----------



## AllyWho

JalexM said:


> It's not thread jacking as if we did have borrow information we could figure out who exactly is having a problem and who is just having slow sales. It's related to the problem at hand.


It is thread jacking, and it's not going to help. How does knowing author A has 100 borrows and author B has 200 in any way help determine the issue? Unless you are given ALL data about reader behaviour, including how many pages each individual reads, its going to be meaningless to compare your borrows to anyone else's. Just like comparing pages read with someone else is meaningless unless your two titles are strongly related in terms of genre, age, length, rank etc. Even if you knew borrows, some authors will refuse to believe that they aren't getting 100% read throughs. As I said up thread, asking for borrows just muddies the water. It won't resolve the problem at hand.


----------



## 13893

I got this response:



> Hello Ms. Rigel,
> 
> We'll need a little time to look into your KENPC concerns. I've reached out to our Technical Team to investigate this issue and we'll contact you with more information as soon as we hear back from them.
> 
> Thanks for your patience.
> 
> Regards,


I included specific ASIN numbers in my query and the reasons why I felt the KU page read numbers were off.


----------



## anotherpage

AliceW said:


> This is my concern with demanding to know borrows - how does that help? I can see authors then assuming every single borrow should result in a full count of pages read. But readers don't all sit down and read 100% of a book as soon as they borrow it. You cannot know the particular behaviour of every reader. Personally I think demanding to know borrows is simply going to muddy the water further. What author wants to be told they have a high number of borrows and few pages read because readers are abandoning the book? Knowing number of borrows (presupposing Amazon would ever release that data) will create a whole different set of problems.


Exactly. Would it be nice to know borrows? Of course but it means nothing when we are paid according to page reads not borrows. There are many books i have borrowed and read 6 months later. Now if an author got all annoyed and said that Amazon was not counting those reads they would be wrong. They keep count once i read not before.

Secondly if you try to base reads of book 2 and 3 on how people read the first book you will get skewed results. I get way more reads on a the first in a series than i do on the 2nd and 3rd. People drop off. It's the nature of the beast.

Third. Let's face it. Amazon is prone to make mistakes but they are also very quick to fix them. I remember early this year they messed up everyone's excel, then removed them all and redid it within 24hrs.

That's why i say do 2 things:

1. Don't look at page reads and sales until one day after ( most get updated overnight )
2. Screen grab your month to date KU normalized reads and compare it with the excel. If they match, it's correct. (Anything beyond that is speculation).


----------



## anotherpage

JalexM said:


> It's not thread jacking as if we did have borrow information we could figure out who exactly is having a problem and who is just having slow sales. It's related to the problem at hand.


I disagree. Borrows do not = reads.

I can borrow and not read. Borrows mean nothing, except one step in the process.


----------



## JalexM

AliceW said:


> It is thread jacking, and it's not going to help. How does knowing author A has 100 borrows and author B has 200 in any way help determine the issue? Unless you are given ALL data about reader behaviour, including how many pages each individual reads, its going to be meaningless to compare your borrows to anyone else's. Just like comparing pages read with someone else is meaningless unless your two titles are strongly related in terms of genre, age, length, rank etc. Even if you knew borrows, some authors will refuse to believe that they aren't getting 100% read throughs. As I said up thread, asking for borrows just muddies the water. It won't resolve the problem at hand.


It does help, it's data that helps paint a picture of previous performance to know if you're having an issue or not. Without it, you don't know if it's amazon's problem or your momentum has fell off, because of that lack of data, their blowing up Amazon's customers service without data points to help their cause.
For some many authors claiming to run their book releasing as a business, it's surprising hearing them say that they don't mind a lack of data that could help approve their _business_.


----------



## Becca Mills

emilycantore said:


> Could those threadjacking to say they now want borrow information perhaps go start another thread?
> 
> This is about the KU page reads problem... not your desire to get more detailed data from Amazon. You think this is great leverage to demand a whole lot of stuff? Go right ahead... but let's keep this thread on track.
> 
> This is a serious issue that needs attention and we don't need to muddy the waters by thinking its leverage to get something else.


Becca Fanning is the one who advocated using the situation to press for borrow numbers. Is it possible to threadjack one's own thread?


----------



## Nope

Borrows mean someone clicked on your book - it's a discrete number, the aggregate of which lets the author know how many people may be reading their books (after a little math), but exactly how many are clicking on the covers. Sales + borrows = individual transactions. This is extremely useful data, and can be leveraged separately from page reads.

I'm curious, if the page reads are not getting counted, then are the borrows? Without the borrow data, how can we know if ranks are being accurately reflected?

We already know that free promos are not accurately reflecting rank.

Rank = visibility.

And visibility is everything.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## Just Another Vampire Writer

After a week of no pages read at all from any of my books (not normal), today I woke up to find over 1000 pages read. Weird.


----------



## lilywhite

Crystal_ said:


> We saw how many borrows we got where people read to 10%. We didn't see the borrows where people read 0-9.9%.


Nor did we have any way to know how many people quit at 10.1%. It was a useless piece of information for anything besides conversion and income.


----------



## Crystal_

After more careful consideration, I'm still unsure of whether my pages are low for the normal reasons (ads less effective as I reuse them, lack of promos, last release was just okay) or if they're off. I am going to email Amazon about the titles in my main name and I will call if emails are ineffective. I expect a "we're looking into it."

It's alarming that Amazon isn't being forthright about this. I love being in KU/Select and my strategy for the next six to twelve months is based around it, but if this isn't resolved in time for my next release, I don't see how I can justify putting it in KU/Select.


----------



## Kessie Carroll

I'm glad to see this thread. I haven't had any page reads due to not promoting. But today I checked my chart, and I had a new page read spike from about two weeks ago. So, um, yeah, something broke in Sept.


----------



## Becca Fanning

One thing that might be helpful in the days going forward is to write down your total pages read for September (Book Report makes this easy) and/or generate a report from your KDP dashboard.


----------



## Christy777

LadyG said:


> I just got the same response. And today, after 9 days of zero pages read, I'm suddenly showing 128 pages from my least popular book. Odd.


Yup, I got that same response! Such BS! I have old shorts published before KU2 that got more page reads than a book that went live Friday night. Old shorts rank today in the 370,000s. New book rank (with 0 page reads today) in the 22,000s. Seriously? Seriously? Everything is fine?!


----------



## LittleFox

I received the same email brushing me off this morning. I politely asked them to escalate the problem as having a book on promotion achieve a rank below 5,000 in the Amazon store, and still only have a couple of hundred pages read didn't make any sense.


----------



## amdonehere

I haven't joined in until now because I don't sell huge like some of you and I can't tell for sure based on my own sales history. But now I am seeing a pattern of:

1. very huge dip in KU reads on a few days

2. my book ranking fluctuates so dramatically it makes very little sense. Also the rankings don't seem to match the number of downloads. I show more sales than what the rankings would indicate (and yes that's after I waited 12-24 hrs for the ranking to catch up).

OTOH, since I don't sell in the hundreds nor do I reach page reads in the tens of thousands, I really can't be sure if it's just because some days my book just isn't selling. What weirds me out is how fast the ranking would dip and dip so low, and then it picks back up again.


----------



## LeonardDHilleyII

brkingsolver said:


> Response from Amazon Executive Customer Relations:
> 
> "I understand you are concerned about lower than expected pages read in your reports. We've thoroughly reviewed all of your KU/ KOLL borrows and can confirm that the pages read displayed in your dashboard are accurate."
> 
> That's disappointing since all of my books just renewed. Going to uncheck that auto-renew now.


I had just put all of my books back in a few weeks ago. I had two huge spikes and then the nosedive on the same day as everyone else. I had also run promotions right after the spike for the books that had risen in rank, but have had no pages read at all (none that have shown anyway). It is odd. Sadly, we have no real data to access, only what the graph shows (IF it is working). I've not received a reply as of it, but I expect it to be the same as those above.

Here's something no one has mentioned and did anyone else notice this? Around the time of the nosedive, I went to Amazon's main page and noticed numerous glitches. Constant flashing of the entire page occurred when I was trying to use the search engine, and this only occurred on their page. I scrolled down to access KDP but only a blank screen came up, as if the link was broken. Amazon was the only website where I encountered this.


----------



## 77071

Anybody seen this yet? http://www.pcmag.com/news/348480/amazon-bulks-up-prime-with-free-ebooks

It might not be related, but it's one thing they've changed...


----------



## katrina46

Kessie Carroll said:


> I'm glad to see this thread. I haven't had any page reads due to not promoting. But today I checked my chart, and I had a new page read spike from about two weeks ago. So, um, yeah, something broke in Sept.


Are we sure something broke in September? Or did it just get worse and a lot more noticeable. I'm not being flippant, but how does anyone know they ever paid us right? We just trusted they did and look where that'd get us now if we ignored this.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Any bets on whether it's not a reporting issue at all, but that they simply don't have the data? I would be willing to put money on Amazon pushing a software change to try to give them an accurate page-read count rather than the "last page read" method they've been using, and it broke their data gathering system. The data isn't there for them to recover, and they're floundering like mad trying lie and come up with enough BS to cover up the problem, because if this is the case and it continues it's going to be the end of KU.

It's not like this isn't a trivial thing for people with books in KU to test. If your reads have gone to zero, borrow your own book and see if the page reads show up in the reports. If they don't, then you know it's not a problem with your book or your readers, it's a problem with Amazon.


----------



## hopecartercan

Denise Templey said:


> Have you seen the new announcement in the KDP Community (next to your Reports tab)?
> 
> Announcement: Update on KENPC Inquiries
> "We've recently received a number of contacts regarding KENPC counts and have been investigating each case to make sure our KENPC reporting is timely and accurate. We regularly monitor pages-read systems for accuracy and to ensure we are recording all legitimate reading activity, including a month-end audit. In the past week, we uncovered one timing-based reporting issue affecting less than 0.2% of pages read which we fixed on 9/28. We are also now in the process of completing our September month-end audit."


I believe them on this. I had my highest ever pages read on 9/28. It was as if they took all of my missing page-reads and gave them to me on that one day.


----------



## KaraKing

KelliWolfe said:


> Any bets on whether it's not a reporting issue at all, but that they simply don't have the data? I would be willing to put money on Amazon pushing a software change to try to give them an accurate page-read count rather than the "last page read" method they've been using, and it broke their data gathering system. The data isn't there for them to recover, and they're floundering like mad trying lie and come up with enough BS to cover up the problem, because if this is the case and it continues it's going to be the end of KU.
> 
> It's not like this isn't a trivial thing for people with books in KU to test. If your reads have gone to zero, borrow your own book and see if the page reads show up in the reports. If they don't, then you know it's not a problem with your book or your readers, it's a problem with Amazon.


This is EXACTLY my thoughts. Something happened and they're scrambling over there to fix it and in the meantime blowing us all off. That's what makes me upset. Don't lie to me and don't brush me off like nothing is wrong. At least they are beginning to admit there is an issue because before they were just blowing us all off. And it's more than just missing page reads; some of our rankings plummeted, and my updates are not going through. They send the email that everything is live but the changes are not there. So, there's a lot more going on over there than just this page read issue.


----------



## tresero

Kara,
I had the same issue.  A book that was updated in March is still being delivered as the old version. They sent me an email saying everything is perfect and the people should contact amazon to get an update. What? If it works, why would they need to email support.


----------



## bellamedia

I called this morning like many others have. The CSA I spoke with immediately said they saw the issue across my books and that that they are working on. She then said she had to complete a form for me for their legal team and someone would be contacting me. Not sure what that is about. 

Has anyone else heard anything similar to that?


----------



## KelliWolfe

KaraKing said:


> This is EXACTLY my thoughts. Something happened and they're scrambling over there to fix it and in the meantime blowing us all off. That's what makes me upset. Don't lie to me and don't brush me off like nothing is wrong. At least they are beginning to admit there is an issue because before they were just blowing us all off. And it's more than just missing page reads; some of our rankings plummeted, and my updates are not going through. They send the email that everything is live but the changes are not there. So, there's a lot more going on over there than just this page read issue.


They broke their keywords system over a year ago. There's a faulty process in the routine that transfers keywords from the KDP publisher database to the search database, so that the search keywords get stuck and will no longer update no matter how often you change them. I discovered the issue and was able to get support to duplicate the problem over the phone - how books were showing up in searches using keywords that were no longer in the list, and weren't showing up using the new keywords that were in the list. Then as soon as I was off the phone they promptly denied via all follow-up emails that there was any sort of problem and never fixed it.

But how many people exhaustively test their keywords after their books go up and keep records of their old keywords to be able to see this and realize what is happening? And even if they do, Amazon just blows them off. It's their _modus operandi_. First they pretend that they don't understand what problem is being reported, hoping that you'll go away. Then they send out the form email that says, "We can't find a problem. It's just you." Then they promise to take it up with the high level support staff, and you don't hear from them for weeks or months. Then they go back to denying that there was ever a problem in the first place. It *mostly* works, so why spend a fortune on developer time trying to fix it? After all, what are the indie publishers going to do, pull their books and go elsewhere?


bellamedia said:


> I called this morning like many others have. The CSA I spoke with immediately said they saw the issue across my books and that that they are working on. She then said she had to complete a form for me for their legal team and someone would be contacting me. Not sure what that is about.
> 
> Has anyone else heard anything similar to that?


It's going to say that you won't sue them or join in a class action suit over their screwup. They'll give you something to shut you up and make you go away. Unless they had screwed up BIG TIME, they would not immediately be lawyering up. There have been other problems with KU in the past, and they've never done this.


----------



## DogNamedNobody

This issue isn't isolated to a few authors. It's happening to all of us. It looks like the system broke around September 20. KENPC went flatline, like in death! But this isn't the only problem. When KENPC goes down, rank goes down, and real sales go down. So we're getting screwed all around.


----------



## SeanHinn

I thought maybe KU readers just stopped caring about the book. That could still be true but...


----------



## SomeoneElse

judechapman said:


> This issue isn't isolated to a few authors. It's happening to all of us. It looks like the system broke around September 20. KENPC went flatline, like in death! But this isn't the only problem. When KENPC goes down, rank goes down, and real sales go down. So we're getting screwed all around.


The date most people have been throwing around is Sept 5th - although if you updated your book around Sept 20, that might be when you were first affected.


----------



## Gwoof

Thanks for all the sharing, guys. My reads dropped from about 500 a day to zip on August 20th. 
I just called the 1-866-216-1072 and got an operator who asked me for my email address and then walked me through having author central call me. 
The author central operator asked me for my ASIN and then told me I was at the wrong place and transferred me 
to a guy who sounded pretty drunk who asked for no identifying information but assured me that they are aware there is a problem and I will be contacted as soon as it is resolved. I said thank you and I would call again on Friday to check. 
Now let's see if my page counts suddenly return.


----------



## DogNamedNobody

LSMay said:


> The date most people have been throwing around is Sept 5th - although if you updated your book around Sept 20, that might be when you were first affected.


It was dropping all along but Sept 20 is when it went flat line. I'm just glad I'm not alone!


----------



## katrina46

Becca Mills said:


> Er ... <raises hand>
> 
> Not that I'm in KU, but that seems like a pretty darned valuable piece of feedback to get.


I'd love to know that. Am I , or I guess I should say WAS I getting page reads because people liked my stories and read them from start to finish, or was I getting them because a bunch of people were reading the first portion only? I've always hated not knowing. And sometimes it's not that it's a bad book. I myself have so many books on my kindle I've started ones i've enjoyed and then stopped it for another that I was curious about. I probably have three books right now i need to finish. It's a good thing I buy my books or those authors would be waiting a long time for payment. But it would be valuable to my business to know my borrows versus my page reads. If I saw I was getting borrows but people were taking forever to read it or even start it, I'd have to wonder if it was worth putting anything at all into KU since I could be selling that book elsewhere.


----------



## tresero

katrina46 said:


> I'd love to know that. Am I , or I guess I should say WAS I getting page reads because people liked my stories and read them from start to finish, or was I getting them because a bunch of people were reading the first portion only? I've always hated not knowing. And sometimes it's not that it's a bad book. I myself have so many books on my kindle I've started ones i've enjoyed and then stopped it for another that I was curious about. I probably have three books right now i need to finish. It's a good thing I buy my books or those authors would be waiting a long time for payment. But it would be valuable to my business to know my borrows versus my page reads. If I saw I was getting borrows but people were taking forever to read it or even start it, I'd have to wonder if it was worth putting anything at all into KU since I could be selling that book elsewhere.


Not that I don't want the information as well, but selling a book still doesn't give you that information. You just know it sold and it wasn't so horrible they wanted a refund.


----------



## Randall Wood

First: Nobody in the business world ever said "No, that's okay, I don't need more information." 

Two: Amazon is one of the biggest tech companies on earth. It has both unlimited talent and money to throw at this problem. The first glitch was detected on or about September 5th. That means they've had a month to fix this and it hasn't happened yet. This makes me wonder if the data can even be recovered. 

Third: For those out there thinking about leaving Select/KU to show Amazon your concern, you can do so without actually leaving. Just unclick the renewal box. If enough people do so, they will notice. 

Personally I thinking/hoping the issue will be solved, when and to what degree of satisfaction is now the question. But like most people with no choice, we wait. Amazon knows we have no choice, so if they are just tinkering with KU, installing and debugging KU3,  then they are doing so at their own pace, confident that we will still be there when they are done. The stupid part of this is that they could have just warned us of the switch and we would have been fine with it. 

So, like I said, we wait.

Where's my scotch!?!


----------



## Randall Wood

Almost forgot,

Has everyone checked their DRM settings lately?


----------



## KaraKing

LSMay said:


> The date most people have been throwing around is Sept 5th - although if you updated your book around Sept 20, that might be when you were first affected.


Yes, it seems to have all started around the 5th for most but as time progressed more and more were becoming affected... and then as other authors (like myself) made changes, then they got swept up into it. I didn't have any issues until I made those changes and that was Sept 28th. I am so mad at myself for making those changes. Ugh!


----------



## tresero

Randall Wood said:


> Almost forgot,
> 
> Has everyone checked their DRM settings lately?


I don't use DRM and never have.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## GARael

I just took screenshots of my KENP graph and book sales reverting to much lower numbers, then back again within the span of a minute. Something is definitely going on with reporting.


----------



## katrina46

To me it seems they didn't fix it in September because they don't know how. Otherwise, why get a legal team to deal with a tech problem. If it was so simple they'd say we had a reporting issue. We've compensated your account now like they've done all the times they had accounting software issues and paid late. Of course it's all speculation since no one knows what the hell happened. I don't think it's confined to page reads though. I always get some sales everyday and I've flatl ined for the past week. I thought that might just be me, but I know other writers who sell consistently and they say they have too. And if the data is actually lost all they can really do is make a one time offer to each author for whatever amount in exchange for you agreeing not to push the issue. It's a real nightmare for them at this point, or can easily turn into one. It's a nightmare for me because I pay my bills with my earnings, so hopefully it won't take them long to take action in some way.


----------



## 41419

I'm baffled that (a) people actively don't want more information and (b) that the same people can't see there is a clear link between that and this current situation.

When KU2 was launched I warned about the lack of transparency, something I warned about again when the scammer issue reared its head. KU2 has no "paper trail" - we have less information even than under KU1 (which was quite opaque). We never really know if 10 readers have read our 500-page book completely or if 500 readers ditched it after 10 pages. We can try and reverse-engineer that with looking at rank shifts, but, honestly, that's next to impossible with the way that page read reports are delayed and backfilled. (One might conclude Amazon wants this opacity, but I digress.)

Where it gets very relevant to this situation is that we can't stand up and say with 100% confidence that page reads are definitely missing. We can point to rank shifts and trends, but we can't be definitive. Before KU, we could be definitive. We could say that X rank = Y sales and there are sales missing from our reports.

So... when/if this immediate problem gets fixed, I recommend people hold on to that righteous feeling of wanting to get something done and also apply it to the issue of a complete lack of transparency in KU2. Amazon has had well over a year to provide us with more data than the crumbs we have been getting since July 2015. And Amazon has done nothing. 

We can't even answer a question as simple as "How many readers do I have?" That's unacceptable. (And that's before we get into the non-trivial issue of not having a functioning system for counting what readers have actually read... and then basing an entire author compensation system on that non-functioning system.)


----------



## D-C

dgaughran said:


> I'm baffled that (a) people actively don't want more information and (b) that the same people can't see there is a clear link between that and this current situation.
> 
> When KU2 was launched I warned about the lack of transparency, something I warned about again when the scammer issue reared its head. KU2 has no "paper trail" - we have less information even than under KU1 (which was quite opaque). We never really know if 10 readers have read our 500-page book completely or if 500 readers ditched it after 10 pages. We can try and reverse-engineer that with looking at rank shifts, but, honestly, that's next to impossible with the way that page read reports are delayed and backfilled. (One might conclude Amazon wants this opacity, but I digress.)
> 
> Where it gets very relevant to this situation is that we can't stand up and say with 100% confidence that page reads are definitely missing. We can point to rank shifts and trends, but we can't be definitive. Before KU, we could be definitive. We could say that X rank = Y sales and there are sales missing from our reports.
> 
> So... when/if this immediate problem gets fixed, I recommend people hold on to that righteous feeling of wanting to get something done and also apply it to the issue of a complete lack of transparency in KU2. Amazon has had well over a year to provide us with more data than the crumbs we have been getting since July 2015. And Amazon has done nothing.
> 
> We can't even answer a question as simple as "How many readers do I have?" That's unacceptable. (And that's before we get into the non-trivial issue of not having a functioning system for counting what readers have actually read... and then basing an entire author compensation system on that non-functioning system.)


This was the reason I went wide with my bestselling series in March 2015. The lack of transparency is ridiculous, and it's gotten worse. Amazon have authors over a barrel. We can't point to an error, because we don't have the data. All we can do is vote with our feet...


----------



## LeonardDHilleyII

dgaughran said:


> I'm baffled that (a) people actively don't want more information and (b) that the same people can't see there is a clear link between that and this current situation.
> 
> When KU2 was launched I warned about the lack of transparency, something I warned about again when the scammer issue reared its head. KU2 has no "paper trail" - we have less information even than under KU1 (which was quite opaque). We never really know if 10 readers have read our 500-page book completely or if 500 readers ditched it after 10 pages. We can try and reverse-engineer that with looking at rank shifts, but, honestly, that's next to impossible with the way that page read reports are delayed and backfilled. (One might conclude Amazon wants this opacity, but I digress.)
> 
> Where it gets very relevant to this situation is that we can't stand up and say with 100% confidence that page reads are definitely missing. We can point to rank shifts and trends, but we can't be definitive. Before KU, we could be definitive. We could say that X rank = Y sales and there are sales missing from our reports.
> 
> So... when/if this immediate problem gets fixed, I recommend people hold on to that righteous feeling of wanting to get something done and also apply it to the issue of a complete lack of transparency in KU2. Amazon has had well over a year to provide us with more data than the crumbs we have been getting since July 2015. And Amazon has done nothing.
> 
> We can't even answer a question as simple as "How many readers do I have?" That's unacceptable. (And that's before we get into the non-trivial issue of not having a functioning system for counting what readers have actually read... and then basing an entire author compensation system on that non-functioning system.)


 Exactly.


----------



## dorihoxa

I get the feeling Amazon people are reading this thread, following it 24/7...


----------



## Lydniz

dorihoxa said:


> I get the feeling Amazon people are reading this thread, following it 24/7...


I'd rather they got off the internet and did something about it.


----------



## SomeoneElse

dgaughran said:


> So... when/if this immediate problem gets fixed, I recommend people hold on to that righteous feeling of wanting to get something done and also apply it to the issue of a complete lack of transparency in KU2. Amazon has had well over a year to provide us with more data than the crumbs we have been getting since July 2015. And Amazon has done nothing.


While I wouldn't say no to more data from Amazon, I struggle to see how authors could use that data to definitively say there was an error in this situation. If you know you had 10 borrows yesterday and 10 borrows the day before, but there are twice as many page reads for the day before, you can't know if that's an error or if your readers yesterday were a bit slower. Or if they borrowed it to read over the weekend, or just haven't connected their kindles to Wi-Fi since they finished reading.

You could maybe say your reads are unusually low for your number of borrows, but that's not really any more definitive than saying your reads are low, period.


----------



## dorihoxa

Just got the confirmation. I'm a very, very small fish in the pond, so I didn't even dare think I was being affected by this, but last night, I asked a KU subscriber friend of mine to read a couple chapters of my book, and she read 3. Guess how many pages read are showing? 
*ONE! *


----------



## katrina46

dorihoxa said:


> I get the feeling Amazon people are reading this thread, following it 24/7...


Well I hope so. Maybe if they see enough comments about unchecking the renewal box they might take some action that actually leads to results.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I've had page reads on 3 of my books this month (under 100 total). None of them are on .com. Two were in the UK and one in India. I'm still wondering if it's just a problem with .com.


----------



## katrina46

tresero said:


> Not that I don't want the information as well, but selling a book still doesn't give you that information. You just know it sold and it wasn't so horrible they wanted a refund.


Yeah, but you aren't waiting around for them to read it to get your money, so that's a big difference from borrows versus page reads.


----------



## Some Random Guy

M'kay - My August AU royalties showed up in my account this morning, 23 days ahead of schedule.  But only AU royalties and none from the other stores.  If y'all want concrete proof that something's totally screwed up, there you go.  Hint: no KU in Australia - it's all straight sales.


----------



## Darren Writes

JVRudnick said:


> Like others I too am off by thousands daily...so I emailed and I just got this Hello,
> 
> This is a second email regarding the pages read.
> 
> In the answer email about the royalties and payments for the pages read of the book. The information indicated that all the numbers where right, at this moment we discover that there is a problem with the update of the information that is displayed in the system, because of this we will need more time to verify the numbers again and confirm that the amount of pages read is the right one.
> 
> Please note and keep in mind that this is not a problem that may cause the loss of royalties, is a problem in the up date of the system when the information is displayed. The team in charge of the records is going to take the case and will contact you with the proper information.
> 
> they will contact you in 24 - 48 hours.
> 
> Thank you --
> 
> So....i also see NEWLY added 5k worth of reads just in the past hours...
> 
> SO....call or email folks!


Helpful, thanks. Quoted for easy access in future.


----------



## A past poster

dorihoxa said:


> I get the feeling Amazon people are reading this thread, following it 24/7...


They read everything we post about them.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Hello everyone.

*If a user reads a book entirely in page flip mode without zooming back in, their reads will not be counted as KENPC and you will not be paid for them.
*
Yesterday I conducted an experiment. I took a several years old short from my college creative writing days and published it on Amazon.

I opened the book, "read" (viewed) the first page, then tapped into page flip mode. I read all the way through without closing page flip, and closed the book.

Today, my dashboard records one page read.

*I read the entire book but only the first page was counted.*

Some readers on Facebook are saying that when they open books they pop open in page flip mode without any action on their part. Some readers may think this is now the default reading mode.


----------



## MMacLeod

A few thoughts:

Information is great. I love more data. How much is it worth to everyone to have it? Because collecting it and reporting it isn't free, and this is another system that would have to be built and maintained, and could experience its own glitches. Are you willing to give up $.0002 or $.0003 per page to find out for absolute certain whether 10 people borrowed your book but only 5 read it? Or that your 1000 age reads did indeed come from 2 people reading 500 pages each and not 10 people reading 100 pages? Because they won't build that system for free unless it is a system Amazon needs. So is it a system you need so much for increasing your sales that you're willing to accept a lower rate to cover the cost?

I updated an older book in mid September that generally gets at least 1000 page reads per day and had never gotten fewer than 500 in a day since it was published in April. From October 2-4, it didn't even break 100 pages each day. This morning it's only 9am and the graph already shows almost 1000 reads for today. I feel pretty confident this is a correction from the earlier days. And it happened even though I never contacted customer service at all, let alone demanded an escalation to a supervisor. So even if you haven't brought your books to their attention yet, it appears that the fixes are being applied system wide.

It may seem like Amazon has infinite resources to throw at a problem, but in reality, there are probably 6 software developers at most who are responsible for this particular chunk of code, which probably broke when some other group of 5-6 developers rushed to meet a deadline and didn't test their new code thoroughly. And that number of 10-12 developers between the two groups is generous. Sure, Amazon employs lots of people. Sure they could hire more. But those people wouldn't have any idea what is going on with this particular problem. Diagnosing and fixing a software problem takes time and expertise. This thread was started 4 days ago, which is when people started emailing support. That means that if Amazon wasn't aware of the problem already, they've been working on it for less than a week. It's not like they're looking for a loose screw, and it's not like there's a manual they can check to see how to fix it. This is trial and error, and they have to make sure that a potential fix doesn't break something else. If you've never lived with a software engineer who has spent a few weeks trying to diagnose and fix a major bug in their code that refuses to be fixed, count yourself lucky. If you have, I bet you've gone through a lot of wine. I know I have.

Finally, Amazon is a multi-billion dollar, multinational corporation. The contribution that all authors, even the big names, combined make toward their bottom line is negligible. The contribution that any one of us here makes on our own is too small to be quantified. It is a guarantee that they will never provide all the information authors want. They will never send out emails admitting they are working on a problem that they don't yet know how to fix, and they will probably never disclose all of the details of the problem if they don't have to. And yes, it's depressing and nerve-wracking when you rely on money from Amazon for your livelihood and you feel like you're in the dark. On the other hand, most of us wouldn't be making anything at all under the traditional publishing model as it was even a decade ago, and we're all getting way more transparency than the lucky few authors who were chosen back then ever did (or even now- ask a trad pub author how much data they get from their publisher, or how much or how often they get paid). There is a huge amount of risk in writing for a living. And a huge potential reward, both emotionally and financially. But if every glitch produces panic, this might not be the right business to be in, or at the very least it might not be a good idea to rely on it completely for income because it's not likely to ever be as secure as any of us would like. That's definitely an important thing to consider before making the leap to a full time career. I'm not saying don't ask for something better or expect fair treatment, etc. Just, be really aware of the possibility that this is as good as it is going to get and know whether or not that works for you.


----------



## Guest

I sent in an email three days ago to request an update on this issue and still have not heard back. 

This is the first time Amazon has failed to respond in 24 hours (for me anyway). 

Anyone else getting an extremely slow response from them to inquiries?


----------



## AliceS

Excellent points MMacLeod! Well said.


----------



## Some Random Guy

rmclean said:


> I sent in an email three days ago to request an update on this issue and still have not heard back.
> 
> This is the first time Amazon has failed to respond in 24 hours (for me anyway).
> 
> Anyone else getting an extremely slow response from them to inquiries?


Same here. Queried them on Monday. Nothing heard.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I just sent them this:

Hello,

I believe I have identified a bug with the Page Flip feature and Kindle Unlimited on the Kindle app and devices. It appears that a user can read an entire book in Page Flip mode and then exit the app, and although the pages have been displayed on the device and have been read, they are not counted and do not appear as KENPC read on my dashboard.

Yesterday, an author on a message board I frequent showed the results of an experiment they conducted by uploading a book to the Kindle store, enrolled in KU, and read the entire book in Page Flip.

I did the same and confirmed the result. I published a book, opened it, immediately went into Page Flip, read the entire book word for word, and closed it without exiting page flip within the book itself.

Only the first page has been counted on my dashboard.

Is this an error with PageFlip or is it functioning as intended? I'm concerned that readers can read my entire book and the pages will not count and I won't be paid.


----------



## tresero

rmclean said:


> I sent in an email three days ago to request an update on this issue and still have not heard back.
> 
> This is the first time Amazon has failed to respond in 24 hours (for me anyway).
> 
> Anyone else getting an extremely slow response from them to inquiries?


I sent 2 (from different accounts) and haven't heard a word.


----------



## tresero

I just published a book. Book 1 in a spinoff off my best selling series. Not only did the series page reads get cut in half in Sept, this new book, should have at least 5-10k page reads in the first day. My list isn't huge, but it's over 10k, and I can guarantee you that the reported 18 page reads and 42 sales is not accurate. But, we already know there's a problem.


----------



## jason2505

MMacLeod said:


> A few thoughts:
> 
> There is a huge amount of risk in writing for a living. And a huge potential reward, both emotionally and financially. But if every glitch produces panic, this might not be the right business to be in, or at the very least it might not be a good idea to rely on it completely for income because it's not likely to ever be as secure as any of us would like. That's definitely an important thing to consider before making the leap to a full time career. I'm not saying don't ask for something better or expect fair treatment, etc. Just, be really aware of the possibility that this is as good as it is going to get and know whether or not that works for you.


Great post! I especially agree on the quoted part. It's a good reminder, because I am in the same boat like many of you.
My pages read have been cut down in half since the end of august, although I have published several new books. I've been publishing for 2 years now, and this glitch concerns me more than the shift from KU1 to KU2 last year. I really hope that amazon takes this seriously and fixes it. Hopefully we'll get an update soon.


----------



## Indiecognito

My latest data offerings:

a) Occasionally I set the time/date preferences on my phone to a day ahead of where we are (this is mostly to take advantage of a weakness in Candy Crush). If I do this at 10 p.m. EST and then go into my KDP reports, which I've done occasionally when I'd forgotten about the altered date on my phone, I usually see page reads projected into the following day. Hundreds or thousands, depending. 
On the evening of September 30, I set my phone to October 1st. When I looked at my reports, page reads were at zero for the following day. The next evening I did the same. Same results; zero. My conclusion based on this is that it's not purely .com that's affected, as those page reads most likely come from across the Atlantic (.co.uk, .de, etc), where tomorrow happens earlier. The last few days, the pattern ended, and reads returned to something like normal.

BUT

b) Yesterday I ran a free promo on first in series and had a few thousand downloads. Within hours I was already seeing sell-through to book two and the subsequent books. But this morning I awoke to lower page reads than I've had in days. And once again, the numbers are moving very, very slowly, 14 pages at a time, or even fewer. I estimate that today will be one of the "down" days that I have about every five days now, for no discernible reason. My graph shows my reads cutting in half, and while they recover the next day, they don't get a huge spike to make up for whatever I lost. 
By the way, sales were fine this morning. But reads tanked. Again.

I'm extremely frustrated with this system right now. I feel like I'm throwing money at promotions that should have excellent results--and in fact, that the results ARE excellent, but that I'm not seeing the rewards because they're concealed by the glitch in someone's faulty code.


----------



## jason2505

tresero said:


> I sent 2 (from different accounts) and haven't heard a word.


I sent 2 mails as well, haven't heard back yet.


----------



## GeneDoucette

Been lurking on this thread since it started. I'm not in KU so have little to offer (aside from sympathy). I'm thinking something is up in the background on Amazon, though, since I've been seeing depressed sales numbers on my best-selling book for two days, while the rank has remained static and/or risen. Meanwhile, the Audiobook rank has been climbing steadily over the same period, and I'm assuming Audible books aren't a part of the same ecosphere.


----------



## SidK

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I've had page reads on 3 of my books this month (under 100 total). None of them are on .com. Two were in the UK and one in India. I'm still wondering if it's just a problem with .com.


That could be it. I got some KENPCs on the dashboard and thought the problem was being fixed but a closer look revealed that they all came from UK. My US KENPCs are still '0' even though the sales are happening. I used to always get more KENPC read throughs than sales before Sept. 15th.


----------



## LadyStarlight

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I just sent them this:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I believe I have identified a bug with the Page Flip feature and Kindle Unlimited on the Kindle app and devices. It appears that a user can read an entire book in Page Flip mode and then exit the app, and although the pages have been displayed on the device and have been read, they are not counted and do not appear as KENPC read on my dashboard.
> 
> Yesterday, an author on a message board I frequent showed the results of an experiment they conducted by uploading a book to the Kindle store, enrolled in KU, and read the entire book in Page Flip.
> 
> I did the same and confirmed the result. I published a book, opened it, immediately went into Page Flip, read the entire book word for word, and closed it without exiting page flip within the book itself.
> 
> Only the first page has been counted on my dashboard.
> 
> Is this an error with PageFlip or is it functioning as intended? I'm concerned that readers can read my entire book and the pages will not count and I won't be paid.


It's true. I tested it myself. We don't get credit for pages read with this page flip feature. This would mean, there is no way they'll pay us for the pages we lost because they were never recorded in the first place.

Every one should mass email about this until we get a response.


----------



## DogNamedNobody

katrina46 said:


> Yeah, but you aren't waiting around for them to read it to get your money, so that's a big difference from borrows versus page reads.


It's also UK. Most of my sales are there, so it must be all of Amazon.


----------



## Randall Wood

tresero said:


> I don't use DRM and never have.


Neither do I. I ask because I remember glitches in the past changing settings for some. I don't see it with my books, but that doesn't mean its not happening to others.

If this turns out to be the result of the page-flip feature Amazon should have the data. How they will credit it is a whole other issue.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Randall Wood said:


> Neither do I. I ask because I remember glitches in the past changing settings for some. I don't see it with my books, but that doesn't mean its not happening to others.
> 
> If this turns out to be the result of the page-flip feature Amazon should have the data. How they will credit it is a whole other issue.


No, they shouldn't, the data isn't being recorded. If you page flip all the way through a book and don't zoom back in, the Kindle never tells Amazon you read it. There is no data to record.

Every page read this way is just gone and they never see it, hence KDP shouting at us that everything is normal and nothing is being miscounted or dropped. I believe that's what they're seeing.


----------



## Randall Wood

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> No, they shouldn't, the data isn't being recorded. If you page flip all the way through a book and don't zoom back in, the Kindle never tells Amazon you read it. There is no data to record.
> 
> Every page read this way is just gone and they never see it, hence KDP shouting at us that everything is normal and nothing is being miscounted or dropped. I believe that's what they're seeing.


I think it depends on the level of employee you are talking to. How it appears to us and how it appears to a lower rung employee are likely very different than it appears to someone who can actually access the code/data.

I just have a hard time believing that Amazon doesn't gather EVERY piece of data on customer behavior that they can. It would be very...un-Jeff like for them not to.

But I'll agree with you on them not catching it. There may very well be a forest/trees problem happening. If that is the case the kboards eyes have done them a favor.

We'll see what they do with this information.

Considering the timeline: Page-flip implementation in June? Or was it July? I forget. Increased adoption over the next month or two. The problem steadily grows until its big enough to be noticed in September. And here we are now. So the theory fits.

And we wait some more.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

LadyStarlight said:


> It's true. I tested it myself. We don't get credit for pages read with this page flip feature. This would mean, there is no way they'll pay us for the pages we lost because they were never recorded in the first place.
> 
> Every one should mass email about this until we get a response.


I'm testing it now. Will give it an hour or two to see if the page reads come up. So far I've borrowed & gone through two of my books in KU and the page reads have not moved.


----------



## tresero

ebbrown said:


> I'm testing it now. Will give it an hour or two to see if the page reads come up. So far I've borrowed & gone through two of my books in KU and the page reads have not moved.


Do you get credit for reading a book in your own account?


----------



## Lysandra_Lorde

tresero said:


> Do you get credit for reading a book in your own account?


Yes, you do  unless it was changed recently.


----------



## KaraKing

I just unchecked my renewals and sent my third email. They never responded to my second email. How do you call KDP support? Does anyone have the phone number? I never even knew we could call them?

Check out my sales graph and author ranking graph...


----------



## Becca Mills

KaraKing said:


> I just unchecked my renewals and sent my third email. They never responded to my second email. How do you call KDP support? Does anyone have the phone number? I never even knew we could call them?
> 
> I wish I could show you guys my sales graph and author ranking graph... it's a very steep slope. I don't know how to put pics in here.


Check Becca Fanning's posts upthread. I think she posted the number she called.


----------



## GwynnEWhite

I need to add my voice to this. Page reads on one of my books has dropped by 75%. Emailing Amazon now but i don't hold out much hope...


----------



## phil1861

When you call the number: 

You'll get a US triage operator (mine was pretty chatty and personable)

You'll be shunted to another level of support, level 1 who will not be able to help you, will only have the same information you do in your panel, and will have to send you to level 2. 

Level 2 won't have anything to add to it either, if you mention ranking they will tell you it's an algo and they have no control over that. If you ask for an audit of your pages read, they will say it needs to go to a higher level and they will get back. 

You should also take a look at your also bought lists. Going free and then coming back off has tanked rankings and some of that is suspected to be a loss of visibility via also bought lists (not on your book, on the other books you should be linked to). If you've suffered a huge drop in ranking after a free run, you should also enquire about also bought linking and any issues you find. 

Using yasiv.com I looked at books my first in series and best seller should have been linked to based on this. I'm not sure what data this uses other than a web crawl through Amazon's system, but books that showed as a link actually didn't show my book in the also bought. (Now I could be all wet on how this is supposed to work) but that was the only thing I could point to that looked definitive on the visibility front as well as asking for the page read audit. (Know this is conflating two different concurrent issues but if you're going to call, make it count).


----------



## bobfrost

Yeah, pages read inside page-flip aren't counted as KU pages-read. Bug confirmed.

The only way to get them to count is to exit page-flip on the page you're reading. If someone uses page-flip to glance ahead, or prefers to read inside page-flip entirely, you won't get paid for the pages they read.


----------



## KaraKing

Just got off the phone with them. They are acknowledging the issue with the page reads. They expect it to be fixed within a week but of course, there's no telling. She agreed that my rankings are not normal, even considering the changes I made. She then informed me that there are no issues within my book but that most likely the loss in page reads is affecting my rankings across the board and thus affecting sales. She said hopefully when the glitch is corrected my book will get back to where it should be but for now all I can do is remain patient and hopeful.

I think I was not previously a part of the issue until I made those changes and then somehow going through review process got me swept up into the mess and that's why I'm seeing such a dramatic shift rather than the more gradual ones that others are seeing.

They took my ASINs and said they will look into missing page reads. But the good news is they are aware of the problem, and they are fixing the problem. They are no longer ignoring us and/or brushing us off... well, over the phone they don't. Emails into KDP support are still getting the generic "everything is fine" response. So, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU CALL IN: 866-216-1072 

They were very helpful and kind... which made me feel a lot better than the email responses did. So, when in doubt... call!


----------



## bellamedia

KaraKing said:


> Just got off the phone with them. They are acknowledging the issue with the page reads. They expect it to be fixed within a week but of course, there's no telling. She agreed that my rankings are not normal, even considering the changes I made. She then informed me that there are no issues within my book but that most likely the loss in page reads is affecting my rankings across the board and thus affecting sales. She said hopefully when the glitch is corrected my book will get back to where it should be but for now all I can do is remain patient and hopeful.
> 
> I think I was not previously a part of the issue until I made those changes and then somehow going through review process got me swept up into the mess and that's why I'm seeing such a dramatic shift rather than the more gradual ones that others are seeing.
> 
> They took my ASINs and said they will look into missing page reads. But the good news is they are aware of the problem, and they are fixing the problem. They are no longer ignoring us and/or brushing us off... well, over the phone they don't. Emails into KDP support are still getting the generic "everything is fine" response. So, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU CALL IN: 866-216-1072
> 
> They were very helpful and kind... which made me feel a lot better than the email responses did. So, when in doubt... call!


That's the exact same thing I saw with my author and sales ranking. They just fell off of the cliff. Many are saying they started seeing this in September, however for me, everything started to tank around the end of August. We'll never get back these lost pages reads or revenue. I likely lost out on a bonus in august and sept because of this as well.

I'm wondering if this is the reason that they are stating they had to send things to legal. Time to read the TOS to see what happens when there is a glitch in Amazon's platform that resulted in lost revenue... I'm guessing nothing.


----------



## tresero

bobfrost said:


> Yeah, pages read inside page-flip aren't counted as KU pages-read. Bug confirmed.
> 
> The only way to get them to count is to exit page-flip on the page you're reading. If someone uses page-flip to glance ahead, or prefers to read inside page-flip entirely, you won't get paid for the pages they read.


I can't imagine that being a huge issue. It's pretty obvious when page flip is on and it's annoying to look at the box and small fonts.


----------



## GwynnEWhite

I ran my numbers back to April and I can say with certainty that they first tanked in August. By mid-September, I was so concerned that I set up KCD for October. I have emailed them, but I'm thinking I should phone.


----------



## phil1861

Same here, first started sinking lower in the rankings first week of August after making changes to my categories. Chalked it up to back to school life disruptions in my primary readership. August was my first low month in the last 5, September even worse. Going free last week was the major hit I took overall in rank.


----------



## Lady Vine

KaraKing said:


> Just got off the phone with them. They are acknowledging the issue with the page reads. They expect it to be fixed within a week but of course, there's no telling. She agreed that my rankings are not normal, even considering the changes I made. She then informed me that there are no issues within my book but that most likely the loss in page reads is affecting my rankings across the board and thus affecting sales. She said hopefully when the glitch is corrected my book will get back to where it should be but for now all I can do is remain patient and hopeful.
> 
> I think I was not previously a part of the issue until I made those changes and then somehow going through review process got me swept up into the mess and that's why I'm seeing such a dramatic shift rather than the more gradual ones that others are seeing.
> 
> They took my ASINs and said they will look into missing page reads. But the good news is they are aware of the problem, and they are fixing the problem. They are no longer ignoring us and/or brushing us off... well, over the phone they don't. Emails into KDP support are still getting the generic "everything is fine" response. So, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU CALL IN: 866-216-1072
> 
> They were very helpful and kind... which made me feel a lot better than the email responses did. So, when in doubt... call!


Why would missing page reads affect rank? Isn't it the borrow itself that counts toward rank?


----------



## Cherise

Lady Vine said:


> Why would missing page reads affect rank? Isn't it the borrow itself that counts toward rank?


Yes it is. But a customer service representative isn't likely to be as familiar with how things work as we suppliers are.


----------



## Lady Vine

Cherise said:


> Yes it is. But a customer service representative isn't likely to be as familiar with how things work as we suppliers are.


The thing is, though, people's ranks have nosedived due to the page read problem, so there must be some connection. If people are borrowing books as normal, the ranks should be rising as normal, no? Just trying to understand how deep this problem runs.


----------



## phil1861

Page reads = $$
Downloads = ranking and visibility (the other thing happening right now after free runs) affects #s of downloads. Both are impacting Select members and people who have perma-free books noting a slow down in DLs overall and wild fluctuations in ranking.


----------



## Indiecognito

Lady Vine said:


> The thing is, though, people's ranks have nosedived due to the page read problem, so there must be some connection. If people are borrowing books as normal, the ranks should be rising as normal, no? Just trying to understand how deep this problem runs.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure that ranks don't work as we've suspected. I think more pages read = higher rank = closer to All-Star status.


----------



## chloegarner

I had thought that it was someone who had borrowed my books once under KU1 reborrowing them and rereading them when I released a new book (triggering new page reads, because they didn't have any registered before), but I had a full set of reads across a series without any of them seeing a ranking bump.  (Like, several of them are ranked worse than 1 million - I know when someone borrows a book.)  It's conceivable that someone borrowed them before and is just now reading them, but I can track as people read one book and borrow the next.  I don't think I had outstanding borrows on the later books.

I think it's possible that we're getting borrows that aren't resulting in rank improvements.  Which would explain the ranking drops people with more volume are seeing.


----------



## DogNamedNobody

Randall Wood said:


> Considering the timeline: Page-flip implementation in June? Or was it July? I forget. Increased adoption over the next month or two. The problem steadily grows until its big enough to be noticed in September. And here we are now. So the theory fits.
> 
> And we wait some more.


How interesting! My highest KENP numbers were in May. In June, they went down 33% and have been on a steady decline every since. The biggest decline was in September, more than 50% from the previous month. Now it's virtually flatline. I think you nailed it!


----------



## Superkev

Looks like I am the newest member of this dubious club :/ 

I was wondering why with all the enthusiasm that had surrounded my newest book, at least in the circles I had promoted it in, I had only one sale and very low page reads. Today I checked and no sales for the last two days and 1 KENP shown for the last two days straight. I don't know anyone who opens a book and reads only one page.


----------



## SomeoneElse

Superkev said:


> I don't know anyone who opens a book and reads only one page.


To be fair, this does happen. Not because they hate your writing from the first page, but because a number of readers download the book and open it to check that it downloaded correctly. Then they close it and (often) read it later.


----------



## eacopen

I've been hearing about this problem but assumed I wasn't affected by it. My numbers are so teeny that I just assumed I'd hit a wall. 
But my two books in Select renewed their term on October 3rd. I've had a few sales (5 since renewing) not no page reads since the renewal. And my page reads for September are down 54%. 
But what can I do about it? Call Amazon and complain? Will they actually DO anything or is this just going to be more wasted effort on my part? I average about 300 page reads a day. I've never had more than one day in a row with zero page reads.


----------



## UnderCovers

eacopen said:


> I've been hearing about this problem but assumed I wasn't affected by it. My numbers are so teeny that I just assumed I'd hit a wall.
> But my two books in Select renewed their term on October 3rd. I've had a few sales (5 since renewing) not no page reads since the renewal. And my page reads for September are down 54%.
> But what can I do about it? Call Amazon and complain? Will they actually DO anything or is this just going to be more wasted effort on my part? I average about 300 page reads a day. I've never had more than one day in a row with zero page reads.


You can do something about it. Everyone can do something about it. If you're in KU, you are affected. Page Flip is not recording pages. This isn't a debatable issue. Multiple people have been able to repeat this test and they are all getting the same results. The pages are not being counted. Page Flip automatically opens on some devices in some operating systems. Readers do not have to enable it in *some* cases. So call Amazon and tell them to fix it. It's not fair to anyone who is in KU. You should get paid for every single page someone reads.


----------



## BloodHound

That’s when I became suspicious SuperKev. At the beginning of July I started getting odd 2-10 page read figures that I had never encountered before. My books are lengthy, reference, textbook, types which people often jump around in because of the extensive TOC and Index. My theory at the time was Amazon was testing something out to counteract people doing this. I deduced this because Amazon had previously reduced people’s page count with Kenp to decrease payouts. The problem is all page reads ended after July 8th leading to some heated discussions with Amazon. I had done some extremely heavy marketing but results were counterintuitive to what had happened in the past. I pointed out to Amazon over and over something peculiar was going on with the page reads function but it took this thread to validate what I was arguing. I think whatever, was rolled out piecemeal and only affected larger blocs lately. IMO It’s a move to decrease payouts and reallocate monies to better known authors.


----------



## R.U. Writing

Hmmm...I made a couple Hot New Release lists this afternoon (#8 in Post-Apoc at the moment), but have zero page reads. Is that normal?


----------



## Superkev

BloodHound said:


> That's when I became suspicious SuperKev. At the beginning of July I started getting odd 2-10 page read figures that I had never encountered before. My books are lengthy, reference, textbook, types which people often jump around in because of the extensive TOC and Index. My theory at the time was Amazon was testing something out to counteract people doing this. I deduced this because Amazon had previously reduced people's page count with Kenp to decrease payouts. The problem is all page reads ended after July 8th leading to some heated discussions with Amazon. I had done some extremely heavy marketing but results were counterintuitive to what had happened in the past. I pointed out to Amazon over and over something peculiar was going on with the page reads function but it took this thread to validate what I was arguing. I think whatever, was rolled out piecemeal and only affected larger blocs lately. IMO It's a move to decrease payouts and reallocate monies to better known authors.


Now that you mentioned it, I remember that as well, I thought was because I only had two titles out (one under another pen name) but my page reads were definitely less than I would have expected, with some 1-5 KENP days, and they most certainly are now with my new release.

Question is, what will Amazon do to make it right, and to whom do I voice my displeasure that will make any difference? Just my luck to launch a book right as this shyte storm peaks.


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass

Just to throw another wrinkle into the subject. A friend of mine's book cannot be read in the Kindle Cloud. It can be read on all other devices but not the cloud. They received several complaints from readers that were unable to open it. Amazon confirmed the book was loaded correctly and they don't know what the problem is. It has been turned over to the technical team. I published a book the same day and everything works just fine for me.

I am sure that cloud reads don't amount to many pages, but it is one more thing to add to the mix.


----------



## eacopen

UnderCovers said:


> You can do something about it. Everyone can do something about it. If you're in KU, you are affected. Page Flip is not recording pages. This isn't a debatable issue. Multiple people have been able to repeat this test and they are all getting the same results. The pages are not being counted. Page Flip automatically opens on some devices in some operating systems. Readers do not have to enable it in *some* cases. So call Amazon and tell them to fix it. It's not fair to anyone who is in KU. You should get paid for every single page someone reads.


Ok, so who do I contact and what is the best way to do so? I've never had to deal with Amazon before.


----------



## phil1861

eacopen said:


> Ok, so who do I contact and what is the best way to do so? I've never had to deal with Amazon before.


Call (866) 216-1072, you'll need to be pretty specific as to what your issue is and not tak "it's the algo's" or "we can't see your page reads" as a go away, nothing to see here.


----------



## heynonny

Just tried to check in on my KDP numbers just now and the report is down with a big red sign: "We are working to update these reports. Check back soon."

Fingers crossed they are addressing the issue.


----------



## Becca Fanning

> We have completed our monthly audit of September pages-read data. We regularly monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior. Total audit adjustments for the month were an increase of roughly 2% of pages read (though the amount will vary from author to author). We are currently updating reports and changes should be visible within the next day.
> 
> We expect the September fund to increase again compared to August and will release the new figure by mid-month as usual.
> 
> Thanks for the recent questions from some authors about how Page Flip is being used by customers and its possible impact to pages read. Page Flip is designed to make it easy to explore and navigate in books while automatically saving your place, and that is how customers are using it. We checked for effects on pages read before launching Page Flip, and investigated it again to re-confirm that there is no impact. We do not see any material reading volume happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely.
> 
> We greatly appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors - please keep it coming. If you have specific questions about your account, please contact us at...


Pages are starting to be added to our September reports. Right now I'm showing 1-2% additional pages.

All I'm going to say is that we didn't have hundreds of authors notice something was wrong because of a 1-2% discrepancy.


----------



## phoenixwaller

Woo, my first post on the boards...

Ok now onto serious business. I saw the mention of page flip, and also performed an experiment, though slightly altered from those above. I took my newest short on a pen name (with a whopping 0 KENP in the week since it came out, in erotica no less) and borrowed it. Amazon lists the story as 26 pages on the sale page. 

I read the first half on my old e-ink basic kindle. Then the second half on my android phone. When I switched devices it synced properly from the kindle to the phone. But when I went back to the kindle to check if it was syncing the other way it remained firmly at 50%. Even a force sync didn't advance it. So that is an added concern about page flip when you consider people who might read across devices. 

Now here's where it gets really weird... It's been about an hour since I finished reading. At first only the first 17 pages showed as read, now I have 35 pages as read on a 26 page story. Since it's been at dead 0 since Saturday when it released I'm kinda thinking that it would be odd to have that jump of an extra 10 pages coinciding with my test. 

Just some random extra for anybody who is interested, this pen name does not have a strong record of sales. I'm reviving the name, but the last published pieces before Sep 20 were from 2012, so essentially starting from 0. The cover is a dud, I can tell just from my free promotion that the cover is a dud. *shrug* Oh and I'm tracking the KENP on the month-to-date unit sales tab rather than the sales dashboard graph, which still shows 0.


----------



## ......~......

phoenixwaller said:


> Now here's where it gets really weird... It's been about an hour since I finished reading. At first only the first 17 pages showed as read, now I have 35 pages as read on a 26 page story. Since it's been at dead 0 since Saturday when it released I'm kinda thinking that it would be odd to have that jump of an extra 10 pages coinciding with my test.


KENPC is usually higher than the number you'll find on the sales page. So your KENPC for that short story is probably 35.

To see what your KENPC is go to "KDP Select Info" under the menu next to your book. The KENPC should be on the bottom of the page. If it's a new release, they might not have determined the KENPC yet. It usually takes a day or two after publication to show up.


----------



## phoenixwaller

NeedWant said:


> KENPC is usually higher than the number you'll find on the sales page. So your KENPC for that short story is probably 35.


Aah, thanks. KU was still in the future the last time I really tried to jump into self-publishing so I hadn't noticed that before. It shows as 36 KENP on my select info so that's a bit better.

I guess I also read in regular mode not page flip, since I don't want to squint at my phone. However, I do think that the not syncing the location from the android app is interesting. It means that info is being lost somewhere along the way.


----------



## anotherpage

Becca Fanning said:


> Pages are starting to be added to our September reports. Right now I'm showing 1-2% additional pages.
> 
> All I'm going to say is that we didn't have hundreds of authors notice something was wrong because of a 1-2% discrepancy.





andycat said:


> Yep, seems to be. My reads for September are now up about 25K, and other authors are reporting increases anywhere from 2-8% being credited to their September KENP.
> 
> Not sure it fixes everything, but it's nice to see some movement!


Is this being corrected for everyone ( across the board)? Or only for those who contacted them? And is it only for the month of September this issue?


----------



## anotherpage

andycat said:


> I didn't contact them (I didn't think I had an issue), so it seems to be across the board. However, I know a few people who haven't seen anything yet. It might be taking awhile to propagate across the system. (I also notice my page reads for today have been frozen since this started.  heh.)
> 
> I also noticed a bit of a boost for October but I only record final totals at month end so I can't say how much exactly. I know at least one day from earlier this week is showing higher reads. No other months seem affected (for me.)


ah ok thanks Andy. Good to know at least they are doing across the board if you didn't contact them.


----------



## N E Conneely

lostones said:


> Is this being corrected for everyone ( across the board)? Or only for those who contacted them? And is it only for the month of September this issue?


I contacted them this morning (and they told me Legal would get back to me in 24 hours). Right now it looks like August and September are going up. I'm guessing October will too (or is), but I haven't been keeping close track of those numbers because it's early in the month.


----------



## Guest

Becca Fanning said:


> Pages are starting to be added to our September reports. Right now I'm showing 1-2% additional pages.
> 
> All I'm going to say is that we didn't have hundreds of authors notice something was wrong because of a 1-2% discrepancy.


On the KDP forums, if you look on the right, there was also an update on the 5th in addition to the one you posted. In that one they say:



> We've recently received a number of contacts regarding KENPC counts and have been investigating each case to make sure our KENPC reporting is timely and accurate. We regularly monitor pages-read systems for accuracy and to ensure we are recording all legitimate reading activity, including a month-end audit. In the past week, we uncovered one timing-based reporting issue affecting less than 0.2% of pages read which we fixed on 9/28. We are also now in the process of completing our September month-end audit.


This is actually in line with my KU reads coming back on the 28th (although very few, but better than none)

Anyway, looks like they are going to sweep this under the carpet. I agree with you, 1-2% decline is NOT what people here have been experiencing, not even close. Not to mention people falling like a stone in terms of rank (which will set them back on what progress they were making).

Very disappointing that it looks like they are just going to hang the authors out to dry who got hit with this glitch.


----------



## BloodHound

Amazon credited me for quite a few days in July plus a few sales. I had calculated the problem had begun in early July based upon the introduction of the page flip feature in late June. They know they owe me for August, September, and October which I doubt I'll see. In other words they tossed me a bone. I'll be abandoning their program at end of 90 days.


----------



## JessieVerona

Looks like right now they're trying to figure out the least amount they can adjust September by to get all those pesky loud-mouthed authors to just shut up and go away already. Looks like they're hoping 2% is the magic number...

ETA: Authors all over the net have been mentioning page reads that have dropped in the neighborhood of 50% to 90% so I'm not exactly sure how Amazon came up with this bizarre 2% adjustment plan. Surely authors who have lost 80% of their page reads overnight aren't going to take their 2% and be grateful for their tiny cup of gruel?


----------



## BloodHound

Interesting thing is they’re not admitting to where the problem originated from. If it deals with the page flip feature it can’t just be withdrawn from thousands of devices overnight. In other words the damages could be ongoing for many months. Is it smart to stay with the program if you could be getting it in sales.


----------



## Guest

JessieVerona said:


> Looks like right now they're trying to figure out the least amount they can adjust September by to get all those pesky loud-mouthed authors to just shut up and go away already. Looks like they're hoping 2% is the magic number...


I could be misreading it, but I suspect they are referring to all page reads.

So if there only 20% of authors are experiencing issues but the other 80% aren't... then 2% of ALL page reads could be coming from only 20% of the authors (which would mean massive 50%+ drops for those authors, while the rest don't experience any issues).

If anything, those not experiencing issues are probably experiencing a BUMP in reads with less competition.

That's my guess.. because the people who got slammed by this suffered way more than 2% drops.


----------



## JRTomlin

I was one of those with no drop and have had a bum in page reads, so you might be right.


----------



## dorihoxa

This is what I got today:



> Thanks for your inquiry. We looked into the concerns you expressed along with those of other authors in response to inquiries about KENPC reporting. I have pasted our latest forum post on the subject below:
> 
> ----------------
> 
> "We have completed our monthly audit of September pages-read data. We regularly monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior. Total audit adjustments for the month were an increase of roughly 2% of pages read (though the amount will vary from author to author). We are currently updating reports and changes should be visible within the next day.
> 
> We expect the September fund to increase again compared to August and will release the new figure by mid-month as usual.
> 
> Thanks for the recent questions from some authors about how Page Flip is being used by customers and its possible impact to pages read. Page Flip is designed to make it easy to explore and navigate in books while automatically saving your place, and that is how customers are using it. We checked for effects on pages read before launching Page Flip, and investigated it again to re-confirm that there is no impact. We do not see any material reading volume happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely."


They're now denying the Page Flip effects. Great. So far I haven't seen anything new on my dashboard, not even the 2%.


----------



## jason2505

dorihoxa said:


> This is what I got today:
> 
> They're now denying the Page Flip effects. Great. So far I haven't seen anything new on my dashboard, not even the 2%.


I got the same mail. No info if my account has been affected or not (although I am sure it must be affected, KENPs are down by nearly 50 % in september).


----------



## dorihoxa

jason2505 said:


> I got the same mail. No info if my account has been affected or not (although I am sure it must be affected, KENPs are down by nearly 50 % in september).


I wasn't sure either, until I confirmed it by asking a friend to read a few pages of my book. The pages didn't show. I think everyone is being affected, but since we have no specific data, we will probably never find out  Too bad because I won't be publishing in KU anymore.


----------



## Becca Fanning

Please keep this in mind everyone:

First Amazon said there was *nothing wrong.*

Then they said *0.2%* discrepancy.

Now they're saying *2%* and they gave us a few pages.

We need to keep the pressure on them. Emails and calls. I know I didn't get what I should've gotten, and I doubt anyone else did either.

The low page read problem is still happening, right now. This issue isn't solved. *They need to look again.*


----------



## Thetis

dorihoxa said:


> This is what I got today:
> 
> They're now denying the Page Flip effects. Great. So far I haven't seen anything new on my dashboard, not even the 2%.


I got the same response yesterday, and my page reads are definitely down by more than 2%.

Most of my books are in KU. I've unchecked the auto-enroll box on them all.


----------



## avppublishing

We've noticed a plunge in some of our men's titles as well.  I'll probably go ahead and send an email to them this morning.  It would be nice if they followed up corrections with an email to the author/publisher! (Hey, we credited you X pages!)

Mariska


----------



## jason2505

avppublishing said:


> We've noticed a plunge in some of our men's titles as well. I'll probably go ahead and send an email to them this morning. It would be nice if they followed up corrections with an email to the author/publisher! (Hey, we credited you X pages!)
> 
> Mariska


That's what I'd expect as well. It seems like I got credited 25k pages as well for september, although - if I compare it to august (I didn't change anything with my ads, I even published more books!) - I lost around 400k pages in total! This really makes me wonder how that can be a fair solution...


----------



## Not any more

Other than the original response saying that everything is wonderful in this best of all possible worlds, Zon isn't communicating with me. Not on the dashboard, either. There is a major disconnect between the dashboard and Book Report. Sales are showing on BR, but with no money for days. I get a few pages read when I wake up each morning, and that's it for the day. From a pages read per sales ratio of greater than 2:1 for the past six months, for October it's 0.5:1. I also notice that my books' rankings are falling even when they're selling. I have no idea what's going on.


----------



## JessieVerona

Becca Fanning said:


> Please keep this in mind everyone:
> 
> First Amazon said there was *nothing wrong.*
> 
> Then they said *0.2%* discrepancy.
> 
> Now they're saying *2%* and they gave us a few pages.
> 
> We need to keep the pressure on them. Emails and calls. I know I didn't get what I should've gotten, and I doubt anyone else did either.
> 
> The low page read problem is still happening, right now. This issue isn't solved. *They need to look again.*


Wish KBoards had a "like" button. Hope we all don't just let them get away with this.


----------



## LeLana Croft

JessieVerona said:


> Looks like right now they're trying to figure out the least amount they can adjust September by to get all those pesky loud-mouthed authors to just shut up and go away already. Looks like they're hoping 2% is the magic number...
> 
> ETA: Authors all over the net have been mentioning page reads that have dropped in the neighborhood of 50% to 90% so I'm not exactly sure how Amazon came up with this bizarre 2% adjustment plan. Surely authors who have lost 80% of their page reads overnight aren't going to take their 2% and be grateful for their tiny cup of gruel?


I lost about 75% on my post-apoc pen name. I'm pulling out of KU. I plan on learning a way to make this work without KU. Learning to market better will be at the top of the list.

I'm tired of Amazon holding all the cards, not sharing the data, screwing with us and flat out lying. Anyone remember when they said we'd be paid .10 per page? Oh...wait...they are still saying that...https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=AI3QMVN4FMTXJ

_Here are some examples of how it would work if the fund was $10M and 100,000,000 total pages were read in the month:

The author of a 100 page book that was borrowed and read completely 100 times would earn $1,000 ($10 million multiplied by 10,000 pages for this author divided by 100,000,000 total pages).
The author of a 200 page book that was borrowed and read completely 100 times would earn $2,000 ($10 million multiplied by 20,000 pages for this author divided by 100,000,000 total pages).
The author of a 200 page book that was borrowed 100 times but only read halfway through on average would earn $1,000 ($10 million multiplied by 10,000 pages for this author divided by 100,000,000 total pages)._

I know I've never seen that.

I believe the person who can show how to effectively make money WITHOUT KU will be the new all star in my book.


----------



## phil1861

Focus everything on building your email list; direct communication with your readers. That's what I've been doing the past two months using Nick Stephenson's strategy. It's a slow build, but at least starts building a lot more control to you regardless of Amazon or any other distributor. It does mean getting dirty in the weeds in learning how to market and prime your subscriptions in a particular way, focus on business tools and strategies to build the list and in general spending more time honing and tweaking along with writing new content - but it also has a long term view that has at least had more to recommend it over letting Amazon have me over a barrel. 

Exclusivity works as long as you get something worth it to you in return. Punctuated free runs work as long as you get something in return like extra visibility (not been happening) and a tail of that visibility working out in higher sales volume (not been happening) so at this point Select has taken more than given the past two months. 

I'm leaving two books in and the rest come out in two weeks. I know subscriptions are the wave of the future and I'm not through with the concept, but at the moment I'm through with this one for the near future.


----------



## PhoenixS

**********


----------



## jason2505

I mean, everyone makes mistakes - amazon is no exception. I am fine with that. The thing is, how do you communicate it. And up until now, I don't have the feeling that the concerns of the authors are taken seriously. 

If amazon would say: "Folks, we've got a problem on our side, we are doing everything to fix it asap", I'd be okay with it. If all the data is lost and they can't tell how many KENPs have been read uncounted, I am fine with it, too (although I know that many people think otherwise). They just should admit it. And do everything they can to fix their system so that things go back to normal again, because I am quite sure that the bug/glitch is still existing, because the KENPs haven't even recovered a little bit since 28/9.


----------



## Guest

jason2505 said:


> I mean, everyone makes mistakes - amazon is no exception. I am fine with that. The thing is, how do you communicate it. And up until now, I don't have the feeling that the concerns of the authors are taken seriously.
> 
> If amazon would say: "Folks, we've got a problem on our side, we are doing everything to fix it asap", I'd be okay with it. If all the data is lost and they can't tell how many KENPs have been read uncounted, I am fine with it, too (although I know that many people think otherwise). They just should admit it. And do everything they can to fix their system so that things go back to normal again, because I am quite sure that the bug/glitch is still existing, because the KENPs haven't even recovered a little bit since 28/9.


This is the smart way to do things.

That said, I'll play Devil's advocate for a second. The marketing, support, sales and executive folks probably all thought exactly what you wrote.

Then, in accordance with some process, someone sent the response strategy over to the legal department who likely said: "STOP!"

The problem with admitting "guilt" is that while you or I might appreciate the honesty, the legal team is more worried about others who will respond with lawsuits.

I can't say for sure that happened here, just that it wouldn't surprise me at all. When I was in the corporate world, about 90% of the things that the company did that made zero sense to the public, was actually the legal department covering the company's butt.


----------



## Becca Mills

eacopen said:


> I've been hearing about this problem but assumed I wasn't affected by it. My numbers are so teeny that I just assumed I'd hit a wall.
> But my two books in Select renewed their term on October 3rd. I've had a few sales (5 since renewing) not no page reads since the renewal. And my page reads for September are down 54%.
> But what can I do about it? Call Amazon and complain? Will they actually DO anything or is this just going to be more wasted effort on my part? I average about 300 page reads a day. I've never had more than one day in a row with zero page reads.


This sounds natural to me. Your second book, published in early July, would've come off the 60-day new release list in early September, greatly reducing its visibility from that point forward. This probably explains September's page-reads being only half of August's. If you're averaging 300 pages/day, I'd think going four days with no pages wouldn't be statistically anomalous; it's like going four days with no sales if you've only been getting a sale a day. It can't hurt to call check, but I bet you're experiencing the normal drop-off into invisibility of unpromoted books. But of course, no one can say for sure, and that's the larger impact of these problems: our trust in the Amazon's mechanisms is broken. Now even typical drop-offs will look suspect. When you're talking digital products, the trust has to be there. Amazon has shot itself in the foot.


----------



## Chrissy

jason2505 said:


> I mean, everyone makes mistakes - amazon is no exception. I am fine with that. The thing is, how do you communicate it. And up until now, I don't have the feeling that the concerns of the authors are taken seriously.
> 
> If amazon would say: "Folks, we've got a problem on our side, we are doing everything to fix it asap", I'd be okay with it. If all the data is lost and they can't tell how many KENPs have been read uncounted, I am fine with it, too (although I know that many people think otherwise). They just should admit it. And do everything they can to fix their system so that things go back to normal again, because* I am quite sure that the bug/glitch is still existing, because the KENPs haven't even recovered a little bit since 28/9*.


Have you consider the possibility that it's no longer a bug/glitch but a permanent algo change affecting how/when page reads will be rewarded?


----------



## jason2505

Chrissy said:


> Have you consider the possibility that it's no longer a bug/glitch but a permanent algo change affecting how/when page reads will be rewarded?


If that is the case and the KU-payout stays about the same, I have no reason to stay in KU. But I'll wait for better things to come now and hope for the best


----------



## scribblydoodler

I have had one title that has earned an all star bonus (for kid's books) every month for the past seven months. Over the last three days it has had just one single page read. It's all very strange, and if it's the new KU reality, then obviously there is absolutely no point remaining in KU.


----------



## KingSweden

J.S.Chapman said:


> This issue isn't isolated to a few authors. It's happening to all of us. It looks like the system broke around September 20. KENPC went flatline, like in death! But this isn't the only problem. When KENPC goes down, rank goes down, and real sales go down. So we're getting screwed all around.


My flatline was at beginning of this week, though this is my first rodeo with KU - I have no reference point.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KaraKing

Becca Fanning said:


> Please keep this in mind everyone:
> 
> First Amazon said there was *nothing wrong.*
> 
> Then they said *0.2%* discrepancy.
> 
> Now they're saying *2%* and they gave us a few pages.
> 
> We need to keep the pressure on them. Emails and calls. I know I didn't get what I should've gotten, and I doubt anyone else did either.
> 
> The low page read problem is still happening, right now. This issue isn't solved. *They need to look again.*


I second this notion! To the phones, people! To the phones!!!


----------



## KaraKing

avppublishing said:


> We've noticed a plunge in some of our men's titles as well. I'll probably go ahead and send an email to them this morning. It would be nice if they followed up corrections with an email to the author/publisher! (Hey, we credited you X pages!)
> 
> Mariska


FYI... they're not responding well to emails. Email inquiries trigger a response of "everything's fine". I didn't get anywhere until I called. And when you call you have to press the issue and get to KDP tech support. Give them AISN #'s.


----------



## KaraKing

LeLana Croft said:


> I lost about 75% on my post-apoc pen name. I'm pulling out of KU. I plan on learning a way to make this work without KU. Learning to market better will be at the top of the list.
> 
> I'm tired of Amazon holding all the cards, not sharing the data, screwing with us and flat out lying. Anyone remember when they said we'd be paid .10 per page? Oh...wait...they are still saying that...https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=AI3QMVN4FMTXJ
> 
> _Here are some examples of how it would work if the fund was $10M and 100,000,000 total pages were read in the month:
> 
> The author of a 100 page book that was borrowed and read completely 100 times would earn $1,000 ($10 million multiplied by 10,000 pages for this author divided by 100,000,000 total pages).
> The author of a 200 page book that was borrowed and read completely 100 times would earn $2,000 ($10 million multiplied by 20,000 pages for this author divided by 100,000,000 total pages).
> The author of a 200 page book that was borrowed 100 times but only read halfway through on average would earn $1,000 ($10 million multiplied by 10,000 pages for this author divided by 100,000,000 total pages)._
> 
> I know I've never seen that.
> 
> I believe the person who can show how to effectively make money WITHOUT KU will be the new all star in my book.


Yeah, and remember when they said that KU would reward authors with longer, more quality works? Then somehow scammers with short, crappy books reaped all the rewards. I went from making around $1,200 from Select borrows down to $700 with KENPC reads.... how the hell was that a reward? This whole KU thing has been a nightmare and it just gets worse and worse with each passing month. When will we say "enough is enough" and get the cojones to leave? Well, I'm at that point now and ready to go wide. Boxes are unchecked and the formatter is creating my files now.

Many are reporting a greater income on google play than KU... I say, it's time to go.


----------



## KaraKing

Okay, i just got my "we did an audit, all is well" email from them. I have seen an increase in my page reads but it's no where near where it should be and my ranking has been killed from all of this. I don't see our rankings recovering without a push from those affected because they're not even mentioning this side effect/issue. I responded with this:

Thank you for the update and for the audit and I hope that when I go into my reports that everything looks normal compared to my sales history, but what about my rankings I have worked HARD marketing and promoting and sending my readers to amazon and ONLY amazon for over 4 years, I have had an amazing rank continuously hovering around the #800s and now I am at 4-5k? There is more to the issue than just missing page reads. This loss in page reads has affected my ranking and/or there is something else going on. Please see the attached graphs. When will the ranking issue get fixed? Thank you all for your hard work over there, I know this has not been easy for you all at KDP, we appreciate the feedback but we need more information and additional investigation into this issue, please.

And I sent them these graphs, which I am reposting...


----------



## DCBourone

My sales/ranking chart duplicates KaraKing's EXACTLY.

On Sept. 29 a complete disconnect between sales/page reads activity and RANK occurred.

For the last seven months Injured Reserves has never gone above 17k rank, or below 40k rank.

Beginning on Sept. 29 rank chart showed NO ACTIVITY/RESPONSE, even though page reads (minor)
show on five individual days.

Just spent about two hours on phone with various Amazon reps.  None of them knew anything
whatsoever about any ongoing issue.

One very smart dude spent the last hour composing a note to 1. Customer Service higher-ups 2.
and "a technical department"--he was extremely helpful, best case scenario, told me to expect
follow up.  I directed him to this forum, he examined posts for about ten minutes, agreed "it
appeared there might be a problem"--minor note: he knew nothing about Writer's Cafe, nothing
about individual categories within books, etc. etc. etc.

Someone pointed out presence/influence/interest of Amazon legal suggests they 1. Know there is
a problem 2. Are anticipating/protecting from potential legal issues/suits.  Exactly.


----------



## N E Conneely

DCBourone said:


> Someone pointed out presence/influence/interest of Amazon legal suggests they 1. Know there is
> a problem 2. Are anticipating/protecting from potential legal issues/suits. Exactly.


I never did get the contact from Legal that I was told would happen. I'm off to call them again because what I'm seeing isn't normal for my books.


----------



## Nope

I don't want to hijack the thread, this is just a general question: Should we start a thread listing all of Amazon's recent "issues", not as a place to complain, but as a positive place to gather data on known KDP/KU bugs, the status of the "fixes", what needs addressing, how we as Indies ( collectively, a billion dollar market segment) should address these issues and how, individually, we can work around them in the short term or overcome them? I mean we have uncounted page reads, apparently uncounted borrows, Page Flip issues, Free promo fails, also boughts/views confusion and whatever else is going on - it's not just affecting short term income, it's affecting careers/business growth. And the issues all seem to be connected, creating a visibility suck. I wonder if the Big5 books are having similar problems or if this is an Indie only situation.

Thoughts?

ETA: Not "connected" in a conspiratorial sense, but in an inverse-synergy way, where all of the separate issues, collectively are creating significant downward pressure on visibility and sales/reads and income.


----------



## Moist_Tissue

P.J. Post said:


> I don't want to hijack the thread, this is just a general question: Should we start a thread listing all of Amazon's recent "issues", not as a place to complain, but as a positive place to gather data on known KDP/KU bugs, the status of the "fixes", what needs addressing, how we as Indies ( collectively, a billion dollar market segment) should address these issues and how, individually, we can work around them in the short term or overcome them? I mean we have uncounted page reads, apparently uncounted borrows, Page Flip issues, Free promo fails, also boughts/views confusion and whatever else is going on - it's not just affecting short term income, it's affecting careers/business growth. And the issues all seem to be connected, creating a visibility suck. I wonder if the Big5 books are having similar problems or if this is an Indie only situation.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> ETA: Not "connected" in a conspiratorial sense, but in an inverse-synergy way, where all of the separate issues, collectively are creating significant downward pressure on visibility and sales/reads and income.


To be truthful, I think a Facebook group specifically about this issue and how to organize around is needed.


----------



## Thetis

I'm trying to call them so I can get my books out of KU, but how the $%*& did anyone get someone on the phone who knows what they're doing!? Or understands English!? I've been transferred twice already and I'm on hold again...


----------



## David VanDyke

I happened to re-upload seven of my KU books day before yesterday. All I did was tweak keywords. I did not re-upload new book files.

Beginning yesterday, every single one of those books experienced a jump in page reads, sometimes 100% or more.

Some of them experienced no discernible jump in retail (red line sales). Some retail sales actually fell.

It may be grasping at straws, but it's possible that re-uploading your books might now fix the problem, even if we don't quite know why.

At least, it is unlikely to hurt.

I've just this minute re-uploaded every single one of my KU books. I will report tomorrow if I see effects on all the other ones. I suggest some of you do the same, with some or all of your KU books.


----------



## KaraKing

Thank you David... I think I need to go tweak my keywords! lol 

At this point, it can't hurt! I will update on my end as well. *Crossing fingers*


----------



## 75845

A simple email may be enough to get out of KU if there is clearance from above for the junior staff to release anyone who asks. I got out when the All Star fund was launched on the grounds that I entered a KU advertised as extra visibility for all and then the All Star fund was launched to enhance visibility for the already successful few. I am toying with another such email as some of my books renewed 23rd September while Amazon were working on the problem already (the 0.2%). I would think that there are grounds for a general release if asked, especially as legal eagles are being sighted (or cited). Even more so if the launch of Page Flip has anything to do with the problems. My reads are flatlined, but then they always are. I should get back to writing books.


----------



## Becca Fanning

Amazon just stripped me of 720,000 pages. Went from 2,090,000 to 1,350,000.


----------



## Gator

Becca Fanning said:


> Amazon just stripped me of 720,000 pages. Went from 2,090,000 to 1,350,000.


Yikes! 

P.S. You lost 740K pages, but still....


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## David VanDyke

Becca Fanning said:


> Amazon just stripped me of 720,000 pages. Went from 2,090,000 to 1,350,000.


Holy mother of a dyslexic dog. What the fudgesicle? That's awful.


----------



## Superkev

David VanDyke said:


> I happened to re-upload seven of my KU books day before yesterday. All I did was tweak keywords. I did not re-upload new book files.
> 
> Beginning yesterday, every single one of those books experienced a jump in page reads, sometimes 100% or more.
> 
> Some of them experienced no discernible jump in retail (red line sales). Some retail sales actually fell.
> 
> It may be grasping at straws, but it's possible that re-uploading your books might now fix the problem, even if we don't quite know why.
> 
> At least, it is unlikely to hurt.
> 
> I've just this minute re-uploaded every single one of my KU books. I will report tomorrow if I see effects on all the other ones. I suggest some of you do the same, with some or all of your KU books.


I was going to have to do this anyhow as I found some typos that somehow slipped past and I am not quite satisfied with my cover art either -- I can never seem to get the cover right on the first try LOL. I will be re-uploading later tonight and will probably tweak my key words as well, if I see any significant changes or upswing in numbers I will let you all know as well.

I am also going to lower my price to 2.99 for good measure.


----------



## BloodHound

Becca, an interesting thing I came across last night is I was getting different readouts on pages read with different browsers which was very strange. It wasn't related to an old cache's either. It seemed they can takeaway just as fast as they give. Your figures might normalize in a few hours or a day.


----------



## GT59

Last night and this evening, my page read numbers have frozen around 7:30-8pm EST and don't budge after that.  Anyone else experiencing this?  My page reads have always increased quite a bit between 8pm - midnight.


----------



## David VanDyke

Here's a blog post I wrote up for Teleread.

https://teleread.org/2016/10/08/amazon-kdp-select-authors-are-losing-page-reads-apparently-due-to-software-glitches/

Feel free to comment either here or there, and let me know if I got anything wrong.


----------



## jason2505

David VanDyke said:


> Here's a blog post I wrote up for Teleread.
> 
> https://teleread.org/2016/10/08/amazon-kdp-select-authors-are-losing-page-reads-apparently-due-to-software-glitches/
> 
> Feel free to comment either here or there, and let me know if I got anything wrong.


David, this is great stuff - fantastic blog post! I hope someone at kdp reads it


----------



## B.A. Spangler

David VanDyke said:


> Here's a blog post I wrote up for Teleread.
> 
> https://teleread.org/2016/10/08/amazon-kdp-select-authors-are-losing-page-reads-apparently-due-to-software-glitches/
> 
> Feel free to comment either here or there, and let me know if I got anything wrong.


Excellent write up - thank you for posting.


----------



## Becca Fanning

My September pages have returned to their proper level. I don't know what caused the hiccup last night, but I did check my dashboard then to make sure it wasn't a Book Report error. I did put in a call last night to Amazon but the department was closed and they took my information.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Becca Fanning said:


> Amazon just stripped me of 720,000 pages. Went from 2,090,000 to 1,350,000.


WHAT!!


----------



## dorihoxa

Becca Fanning said:


> Amazon just stripped me of 720,000 pages. Went from 2,090,000 to 1,350,000.


Oh God ...did you call? Email? What did they say?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Becca Fanning said:


> My September pages have returned to their proper level. I don't know what caused the hiccup last night, but I did check my dashboard then to make sure it wasn't a Book Report error. I did put in a call last night to Amazon but the department was closed and they took my information.


That's a relief . Hope they stay at their proper level .


----------



## tresero

It seems that maybe some people have had a sort of fix, me on the other hand, have seen no adjustment and as I posted above, my new release is 90% below page reads of the last 6 releases in the same series. Am I the only one not seeing any relief? I should have been over a million page reads last month, and I'm 25% off of that.


----------



## KaraKing

Well I made some minor tweaks and went through review but it didn't do anything. In fact part two's rankings are the worst they've ever been. This really sucks!


----------



## David VanDyke

My translator, Frank Dietz, also pointed out that Page Flip mode seems to be correlated to Enhanced Typesetting, and for me, it appears that there is a loose correlation between the books that I re-uploaded regaining page read levels, and the fact that they had Enhanced Typesetting enabled.

Again, this is speculation, but it's possible that a re-upload "reboots" something within a book that has Enhanced Typesetting enabled, eliminating some or all of the problem of missed page reads for that book.

I'm still watching my numbers for all books that I re-uploaded yesterday, but I will say that I'm running ahead of my recent reduced average today. I'll report as I find out more.


----------



## Thetis

FYI, for anyone who's had enough and wants out of KU, they *are* allowing authors to get out. You'll get the standard, "We'll forward this on to the proper department," line but they will terminate enrollment quickly after that... which I find a bit strange as if they're hoping that irate authors will be placated by allowing them out, but maybe I'm just overly suspicious of them at this point.


----------



## Indiecognito

My last couple of days are way up in terms of sales/borrrows. That likely has to do with a promotion I did earlier in the week. That said, I did a similar promo last month and had nothing like these results, so something definitely appears to have changed. It both makes me happy and grumpy to see the numbers back to where they should be, knowing that they SHOULD have been here a month ago.


----------



## Not any more

I just skimmed through this entire thread, and notice that none of the true heavy hitters in KU have commented. I also went back to October last year, and quite frankly, it s**ked, lowest revenue month since KU2 started. 

With 111,000 books released in the past month, half of those in KU, and October being a traditional release month for the big publishers ...


----------



## David VanDyke

brkingsolver said:


> With 111,000 books released in the past month, half of those in KU, and October being a traditional release month for the big publishers ...


BRK, that might explain it if retail sales dropped along with page reads. In my case, my page reads have held steady or risen with the season, but my page reads dropped by 30% over two weeks.


----------



## going going gone

Another data point: no changes here that I can see. (though my page reads didn't spike with my last release on Aug 31, but as I understand it, that was well before the problem. (?) 60% of my income is still KU/KOLL income.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Becca Fanning said:


> My September pages have returned to their proper level. I don't know what caused the hiccup last night, but I did check my dashboard then to make sure it wasn't a Book Report error. I did put in a call last night to Amazon but the department was closed and they took my information.


Yikes. Glad to hear it was fixed.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Did somebody mention seeing only one page read several times over the past few months? I thought that was just somebody downloading but not reading right away. Could it be related?


----------



## David VanDyke

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Did somebody mention seeing only one page read several times over the past few months? I thought that was just somebody downloading but not reading right away. Could it be related?


That's been pretty much proven to be a Page Flip software problem. If the reader doesn't leave Page Flip mode, only one page read is ever recorded.


----------



## Allyson J.

I'm starting to see a rise in sales for my main name. Ranking is abysmal. No reads yet for my pen name. 
I still have from the 28th to the 6th with nothing reported.


----------



## Used To Be BH

tresero said:


> It seems that maybe some people have had a sort of fix, me on the other hand, have seen no adjustment and as I posted above, my new release is 90% below page reads of the last 6 releases in the same series. Am I the only one not seeing any relief? I should have been over a million page reads last month, and I'm 25% off of that.


I may be completely off-base here, but by any chance is your most recent series book on your series page yet? This is a much lesser Amazon problem, but I find that they are slow to update that information--like months slow, and contacting support does nothing.

The reason I ask is that my two series books not listed with the others on my series page persistently do worse in pages read, and based on the problem you're experiencing, I wonder if something like that could be a contributing factor.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Did somebody mention seeing only one page read several times over the past few months? I thought that was just somebody downloading but not reading right away. Could it be related?


I've seen the same one page reads. I also thought readers were losing interest after one page, or just checking that it had downloaded correctly.


----------



## Sarah Shaw

brkingsolver said:


> I just skimmed through this entire thread, and notice that none of the true heavy hitters in KU have commented.


Wow, what's your definition of a 'heavy hitter'? At least one person who had been earning $20,000 or so a month said she'd lost 3/4 of her revenue. I'd feel pretty darn successful with the quarter remaining!


----------



## tresero

Bill Hiatt said:


> I may be completely off-base here, but by any chance is your most recent series book on your series page yet? This is a much lesser Amazon problem, but I find that they are slow to update that information--like months slow, and contacting support does nothing.
> 
> The reason I ask is that my two series books not listed with the others on my series page persistently do worse in pages read, and based on the problem you're experiencing, I wonder if something like that could be a contributing factor.


It's not that old, only 5 days or so and also, it's book 1 of a spinoff. The real issue is that page reads are down 90% from every other release I've had in the last year. I have a list over 10k and 1k clicked to the Amazon page. Yet, in 5 days, this book only has 2,000 page reads. Normally would be way north of 10k, probably near 20k by now. My other books are down by at least 25%, more like 40% for most. Only page reads affected. Sales are normal.


----------



## tresero

Sarah Shaw said:


> Wow, what's your definition of a 'heavy hitter'? At least one person who had been earning $20,000 or so a month said she'd lost 3/4 of her revenue. I'd feel pretty darn successful with the quarter remaining!


I personally know someone who does 100k plus a month and is down 25% - 30%. Yeah, it affects everyone just about.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

David VanDyke said:


> That's been pretty much proven to be a Page Flip software problem. If the reader doesn't leave Page Flip mode, only one page read is ever recorded.


Thanks. Time to tally-up and make that call.


----------



## avppublishing

KaraKing said:


> I have seen an increase in my page reads but it's no where near where it should be and my ranking has been killed from all of this. I don't see our rankings recovering without a push from those affected because they're not even mentioning this side effect/issue. I responded with this:
> 
> Thank you for the update and for the audit and I hope that when I go into my reports that everything looks normal compared to my sales history, but what about my rankings


Thanks for this, Kara. This is what we're seeing with my husband's books. Basically, the authors who chose to enroll in KU are being punished and now are being outranked by those who did not enroll. Aggravating. He's been publishing for a while, and was complaining about rankings to me before I even saw this thread! Even when reads started picking up, rankings have not really followed. Sales for a particular book over a few days last week normally would have pushed it down to 20k and it's sitting at 100k right now, even following a few good days!


----------



## phil1861

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Did somebody mention seeing only one page read several times over the past few months? I thought that was just somebody downloading but not reading right away. Could it be related?


Me, right now, fourth book in my series, one page read for the last several days.


----------



## RuthNestvold

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Did somebody mention seeing only one page read several times over the past few months? I thought that was just somebody downloading but not reading right away. Could it be related?


Me too. I've had a rash of 1-5 pages being read a day this whole month. With books that are 900+ KENP long, it's very frustrating.


----------



## Patty Jansen

I have two short story collections in Select. My page reads are not huge (Hey! Short story collections) but they do get borrows every week because they're in my autoresponder. I leave this graph to speak for itself. Not sure what to make of it.


----------



## Randall Wood

Oh, to be a fly on the wall at Amazon right now.

I imagine there is a room occupied by people from several departments including KU/KDP, Upper Management, and of course, Legal. Its full of tired people who took off their ties hours ago. The table is covered in empty coffee cups and cold pizza. They all weigh less than they did yesterday and all of them trying to find the best way out of this problem. If somebody’s phone buzzes they all jump at once. 

On the white board there’s a combination of the old triangle diagram. Fix this fast - restore/back-date accurate reporting - avoid exposure.

You may pick two. 

I do not envy them. Good luck guys.


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass

Randall Wood said:


> Oh, to be a fly on the wall at Amazon right now.
> 
> I imagine there is a room occupied by people from several departments including KU/KDP, Upper Management, and of course, Legal. Its full of tired people who took off their ties hours ago. The table is covered in empty coffee cups and cold pizza. They all weigh less than they did yesterday and all of them trying to find the best way out of this problem. If somebody's phone buzzes they all jump at once.
> 
> On the white board there's a combination of the old triangle diagram. Fix this fast - restore/back-date accurate reporting - avoid exposure.
> 
> You may pick two.
> 
> I do not envy them. Good luck guys.


Been there, done that. One of the reasons I started writing books for a living. I thought I had escaped the world of screwed up software.


----------



## Moist_Tissue

People don't really wear ties at Amazon. Dress code is casual. Very casual. Chances are people are working on this through remote access.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Randall Wood

Moist_Tissue said:


> People don't really wear ties at Amazon. Dress code is casual. Very casual. Chances are people are working on this through remote access.


They were metaphorical ties. 

What should I have said?

Crocs?


----------



## Indiecognito

Atlantisatheart said:


> Hello,
> First time poster, long time reader of the boards.
> 
> Just to put my two pence in.
> 
> I have more than one hundred and fifty books on Amazon, mainly novella's 25,000 - 35,000 words each. I first noticed a problem back in July. It seemed the more books that I uploaded the less pages read I actually got. July was awful - usually with four books up a month i can hit 100,000 pages a day. I had seven books up in July and was barely hitting 20,000 pages. Another seven books in August and the figures were starting to pick up, but not by that much. I can't even estimate the amount of pages that I've lost because it feels like an impossible task to even think about trying to do the math.
> 
> I feel as though I might as well have given my books to a piracy site and been done with it. Amazon have washed their hands of the whole thing and are lying through their teeth. We're all getting the run around, and why the hey should I upload any more books to Unlimited when I no longer trust Amazon to organise a **** up in a brewery? (Sorry, needed to vent.)
> 
> I can understand them getting their legal department involved because I can see a class action on the horizon if they don't compensate us for loss of earnings.


It's so interesting to read this. This is how I've felt for months; writing my butt off, uploading then...nothing. This is after 12 consecutive months of making anywhere from 12k-20k each month.

I feel your pain.


----------



## Sam Kates

Atlantisatheart said:


> Hello,
> First time poster, long time reader of the boards.
> 
> Just to put my two pence in.
> 
> I have more than one hundred and fifty books on Amazon, mainly novella's 25,000 - 35,000 words each. I first noticed a problem back in July. It seemed the more books that I uploaded the less pages read I actually got. July was awful - usually with four books up a month i can hit 100,000 pages a day. I had seven books up in July and was barely hitting 20,000 pages. Another seven books in August and the figures were starting to pick up, but not by that much. I can't even estimate the amount of pages that I've lost because it feels like an impossible task to even think about trying to do the math.
> 
> I feel as though I might as well have given my books to a piracy site and been done with it. Amazon have washed their hands of the whole thing and are lying through their teeth. We're all getting the run around, and why the hey should I upload any more books to Unlimited when I no longer trust Amazon to organise a **** up in a brewery? (Sorry, needed to vent.)
> 
> I can understand them getting their legal department involved because I can see a class action on the horizon if they don't compensate us for loss of earnings.


I find this incredibly depressing. I'm just about to go part-time in my day job to free up writing time and I'm beginning to think I could be making a huge mistake. My plan was to go with KU for all new stuff (I'm already wide with my earlier works) but that's looking increasingly foolhardy. 4-letter expletive beginning with F. Sorry, I needed to vent, too.


----------



## Allyson J.

I agree that lately it's felt like the more books I release, the less money I make. I was about to abandon a pen name because I wasn't seeing sales/reads even after promos. Now, I'm wondering if it wasn't Amazon and/or the page flip fiasco. Who knows?!


----------



## Indiecognito

Allyson J. said:


> I agree that lately it's felt like the more books I release, the less money I make. I was about to abandon a pen name because I wasn't seeing sales/reads even after promos. Now, I'm wondering if it wasn't Amazon and/or the page flip fiasco. Who knows?!


Me too. It was like pouring money and effort down a bottomless pit. The only reason I was able to sustain myself was that I did so well last year (and because I never quite my other job). This isn't a course of action for the faint-hearted, that's for sure.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Moist_Tissue said:


> People don't really wear ties at Amazon. Dress code is casual. Very casual. Chances are people are working on this through remote access.


That's not as much fun as:



Randall Wood said:


> Oh, to be a fly on the wall at Amazon right now.
> 
> I imagine there is a room occupied by people from several departments including KU/KDP, Upper Management, and of course, Legal. Its full of tired people who took off their ties hours ago. The table is covered in empty coffee cups and cold pizza. They all weigh less than they did yesterday and all of them trying to find the best way out of this problem. If somebody's phone buzzes they all jump at once.
> 
> On the white board there's a combination of the old triangle diagram. Fix this fast - restore/back-date accurate reporting - avoid exposure.
> 
> You may pick two.
> 
> I do not envy them. Good luck guys.


I like this better. Sounds like they're sweating.


----------



## A past poster

Atlantisatheart said:


> I can understand them getting their legal department involved because I can see a class action on the horizon if they don't compensate us for loss of earnings.


Have you read the TOS? As I recall, Amazon put everything they possibly could in it, including that you can't sue them. You can only go to arbitration, which I believe rules out suing them in a class action. I'm not a lawyer so I could be wrong. Someone on this board would know.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Moist_Tissue

Randall Wood said:


> They were metaphorical ties.
> 
> What should I have said?
> 
> Crocs?


Do you remember that howling wolf t-shirt? Think of a conference room full of long-haired, croc-wearing with socks dudes wearing that howling wolf shirt. That's Amazon.


----------



## amdonehere

I noticed in this thread that several had said they saw problems on Sept 28. I had a significant dip in KENP reads that day and a dip in sales on Sept 29. Since then, I've been lower than before these dates, but there were 2 dates in Oct where I had significant dips again. I have to go back and check which dates they were

Maybe we can all share the specific dates where we saw drastic dips? If we can pinpoint a pattern, it would help to bring the issue to Amazon too?


----------



## Guest

AlexaKang said:


> I noticed in this thread that several had said they saw problems on Sept 28. I had a significant dip in KENP reads that day and a dip in sales on Sept 29. Since then, I've been lower than before these dates, but there were 2 dates in Oct where I had significant dips again. I have to go back and check which dates they were
> 
> Maybe we can all share the specific dates where we saw drastic dips? If we can pinpoint a pattern, it would help to bring the issue to Amazon too?


good luck with this... it's all one big giant mess.

I went to zero in KU reads on Sept 15 and they came back on the 28th and have picked up since then.

hehe maybe Amazon is routine everyone through some system change that totally screws you for a few weeks.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Randall Wood said:


> Oh, to be a fly on the wall at Amazon right now.
> 
> I imagine there is a room occupied by people from several departments including KU/KDP, Upper Management, and of course, Legal. Its full of tired people who took off their ties hours ago. The table is covered in empty coffee cups and cold pizza. They all weigh less than they did yesterday and all of them trying to find the best way out of this problem. If somebody's phone buzzes they all jump at once.
> 
> On the white board there's a combination of the old triangle diagram. Fix this fast - restore/back-date accurate reporting - avoid exposure.
> 
> You may pick two.
> 
> I do not envy them. Good luck guys.


Our electricity dept has just implemented a new billing system. Not only did it cause havoc with incorrect bills, but also compromised everyone's confidential data. Their website is now down - but the new system is working 'fine'  Your very visual image came to mind.


----------



## jason2505

Indiecognito said:


> It's so interesting to read this. This is how I've felt for months; writing my butt off, uploading then...nothing. This is after 12 consecutive months of making anywhere from 12k-20k each month.
> 
> I feel your pain.


I feel you as well. I had 100k+ pages a day in july, now I am down to 30k. After I got the standard email reply, I mailed them again to point out that I am sure something is wrong on their end that they should double-check it. I am now waiting since 48 hours, but no reply. If I don't hear back till tomorrow, I'll call them as well.


----------



## RuthNestvold

I never got an answer from Amazon at all, and since I'm in Germany, I don't care to call them at international rates. So I just sent an email asking that all my books still in Select be removed from the program. Here's hoping they do it. I'm getting really tired of this.


----------



## JVRudnick

Have been following this thread with great interest as my own numbers are skewed as well...have been in touch with Amazon as well and await some kind of news...

Only changes I've seen in my own graphs were a few days back I all of a sudden got 5k page reads added -- no where near my normal of 10-15k per day like it should be....and nothing since, ie all are under 1k per day....

And yesterday my sales spiked up and yet today, they sit back at 0 sold today....sigh....

Something is wrong. I know it from past intensive study of my own numbers....and from what I hear--there's a lot of us in this boat....sigh...

So....Amazon...over to you....when will a change occur?


----------



## KelliWolfe

So Amazon lied about page reads when they did the KU 2.0 switchover, and they're doing so today. We ought to be used to it by now.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

I found the message re: Page Flips on the official KDP system to be telling. They didn't say that the Page Flips are registering pages like they should, but that they have not seen significant reading behavior using that feature which does not log as a page read. But, then, if the Page Flip feature isn't recording pages read, how in the world are they able to say they don't see significant reading behavior? They wouldn't even know.

Also, I think it's important that Amazon NEVER promised anyone would make more money or have a better sales ranking by enrolling in KDP Select. Those are promises and observations winners of the KU Lottery and certain large signal indie blogs made, sometimes surprisingly AFTER they had said no way, no how to KDP Select's new programs. 

Be in KDP Select if you want to be in KDP Select, and certainly ask for better reporting and accurate reporting. But start making plans now for making the most of the program for yourself, over an above just publishing and walking away. So many have said how wonderful the earnings are in KU that now 51% of all 30 day new releases are Kindle Unlimited Eligible. 

I would expect more subtle changes for Amazon to keep the status quo. I know they want at least the magic 1 million titles in the program. But I don't think they want an ebook store with EVERY book in Kindle Unlimited because that cuts into their profits. They want that 30%, too.


----------



## KaraKing

Just a quick update: My rank for TPOP seems to be recovering, finally! 

However, I'm only half way to where I was before the big dip in rank. Even my author rank is getting better; although I'm nowhere close to where I was before this craziness started. However, the twist in my story is that Part Two's rank (which I did NOT call in and report the ASIN# on this book) is still doing bad and when I made updates the review process went through but the changes did not. Which is weird because that was the same issue I had with part one. 

It just goes to show that the issues we're experiencing are all across the board and not just missing page reads. Rankings are off, sales are down, updates are not processing correctly, and much more... but different issues seem to be affecting different books differently (but not all books).    

***
_*And strangely enough, I just got an email from KDP, literally while I was typing this! In response to my earlier email to them (posted earlier in this thread): *_

"Thank you for the new information. We are sending this to our business team for investigation. We'll follow up with you when we have more information."
***

So... they are listening and if you're having issues you should call and give them your ASIN# and share with them your specific problem. I will be calling about Part Two tomorrow.


----------



## PhoenixS

**********


----------



## GT59

I got the very same message from CR-Exec a couple of hours ago.


----------



## tresero

I got the same message. More stalling I'm guessing.


----------



## katrina46

My page reads have been going back up the past few days. Not like they were, but I put my latest release wide last week because of this mess, so that could have something to do with them not climbing as high. It does seem they might be working on it, though. I actually made a little money.


----------



## jason2505

tresero said:


> I got the same message. More stalling I'm guessing.


I got the mail as well. At least it sounds like they are investigating the whole thing in more depth now.


----------



## David VanDyke

I got the "business" email as well.

I said I'd report results from tweaking and republishing. 

Background: I tweaked and republished all my KU books based a situation of a few days earlier, where KDP sent me a nastygram saying seven of my books had keywords that were out of line (had the word "kindle" in them--these had been this way for years BTW). Okay, fine, removed those and saw an immediate jump in page reads but not retail sales, which argues against a jump in discoverability. Why would page reads go up, then? My only reasonable theory was that the republishing process somehow rebooted the books' ability to register page reads. That or it was a complete coincidence, but with seven books seeing an immediate boost, probably not. It could also have been reporting lag for those books only that caused the day before to be low and the next day to be high.

Overall, though, my page reads began trending higher. I did release a German version book, but subtracting out those page reads, my blue line is still trending higher.

Republishing all the other books did not seem to have the same obvious effect that republishing the seven offenders did. Some went up, some went down, all within the expected range of statistical variation.

My two new KU box sets did not contribute significantly to this rise, despite being both above the 3000 cap, because they both seem to be stuck in Page Flip limbo. Most days they show fewer than 100 page reads, which is preposterous for a 3000-KENP book that has sold hundreds of retail copies. I am seriously considering republishing from scratch with new ASINs to see if that reboots the process. 


Has anyone done that, by the way? If so, to what result?

Yet, overall, my page reads continue to creep upward instead of downward, which is a good thing, though still unexplained.


----------



## KaraKing

Rank is even better today. I'm almost where I was before the crash but my page reads are still way down. Sigh.


----------



## David VanDyke

KaraKing said:


> Rank is even better today. I'm almost where I was before the crash but my page reads are still way down. Sigh.


That's my experience. It may be that they've corrected the ranking issue but the page read issue is harder to crack.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## phil1861

WasAnn said:


> I'm starting to wonder if this might have been a cluster of problems brought about by some other major change. I'm generally quiet about these things, but I sort of tackled it like I went after researching the scam books this spring. Naturally, I haven't done two months of research yet, but I did go scanning a boat load of books (including those I could figure out from those remarking on the posts) and a couple of things really stand out. Maybe those impacted can remark to see if this is true for you.
> 
> 1) Permafrees dropped significantly further in visibility, possibly not shown to browsers as an option as much. This impacted rank of that book as well as follow on books, tangentially impacting all the catalog since it narrowed the point of entry for an author's work to browsers. Further impact to sales and borrows.
> 
> 2) Older books in catalogs dropped rank precipitously, despite being the "anchor" of an author's work and performing well for long periods of time. Same further on impacts as #1.
> 
> 3) Rather than impacting only wide books not in KU, older books or series in KU with the first one permafree also took a visibility hit.
> 
> Separately:
> 
> 1) Page flip feature destroyed reads and is being under-reported in terms of impact by Amazon. I read in page flip on all but one of my devices and that represents about 90% of my reading. A quick, informal survey of several others reports the same thing for larger screen reading, particularly with voracious readers.
> 
> I don't have time to do another two month long bit of research and I doubt the problem will remain for that long anyway, but I'm wondering if they didn't do an algo change that shifted focus from steady performers to giving a boost to newer work. Based on comparison of dates published for the couple of hundred I looked at, I'm seeing a trend of folks who rely on steady performers for entry into their catalog, which also boosts new work. And it seems there's a rather large percentage of people reporting impacts that have an "anchor" catalog. Romance is harder and faster churning, so the water is more muddy there, but those in other genres seem to fit this pattern fairly well.
> 
> The fact that so many of you are reporting your rank moving back up (including me) indicates it's more than a page flip issue.
> 
> Could it be that there was an algo change that just happens to coincide with the page flip feature being noticed? A change that perhaps gave a lesser advantage to older works?


For the most part, this is true for mine. They Met at Shiloh released in 2011 but all this year up until a free run on the 28th/29th was in a consistent range at 5K in the paid store. I had committed to a cross promo free the last two days so put it free once more. But, at the point that it went free again, it was already high in the rankings and going down so I can't report that anything has righted with it from what it had before. I did re-add the mobi file just to see if that reset anything, but page reads are still low and as of this morning little has changed with it.


----------



## David VanDyke

WasAnn said:


> I'm starting to wonder if this might have been a cluster of problems brought about by some other major change. I'm generally quiet about these things, but I sort of tackled it like I went after researching the scam books this spring. Naturally, I haven't done two months of research yet, but I did go scanning a boat load of books (including those I could figure out from those remarking on the posts) and a couple of things really stand out. Maybe those impacted can remark to see if this is true for you.
> 
> 1) Permafrees dropped significantly further in visibility, possibly not shown to browsers as an option as much. This impacted rank of that book as well as follow on books, tangentially impacting all the catalog since it narrowed the point of entry for an author's work to browsers. Further impact to sales and borrows.
> 
> 2) Older books in catalogs dropped rank precipitously, despite being the "anchor" of an author's work and performing well for long periods of time. Same further on impacts as #1.
> 
> 3) Rather than impacting only wide books not in KU, older books or series in KU with the first one permafree also took a visibility hit.
> 
> Separately:
> 
> 1) Page flip feature destroyed reads and is being under-reported in terms of impact by Amazon. I read in page flip on all but one of my devices and that represents about 90% of my reading. A quick, informal survey of several others reports the same thing for larger screen reading, particularly with voracious readers.
> 
> I don't have time to do another two month long bit of research and I doubt the problem will remain for that long anyway, but I'm wondering if they didn't do an algo change that shifted focus from steady performers to giving a boost to newer work. Based on comparison of dates published for the couple of hundred I looked at, I'm seeing a trend of folks who rely on steady performers for entry into their catalog, which also boosts new work. And it seems there's a rather large percentage of people reporting impacts that have an "anchor" catalog. Romance is harder and faster churning, so the water is more muddy there, but those in other genres seem to fit this pattern fairly well.
> 
> The fact that so many of you are reporting your rank moving back up (including me) indicates it's more than a page flip issue.
> 
> Could it be that there was an algo change that just happens to coincide with the page flip feature being noticed? A change that perhaps gave a lesser advantage to older works?


I have a permafree title that has continued to steadily climb on its own, without promotion, so for me, no, that hasn't happened.

Also for me, my older books are doing fine; it's my brand-new books that are showing massive under-reporting, probably due to page flip.


----------



## Indiecognito

I have an older book that had over 8,000 pages read and 8 sales yesterday, and its rank isn't great (13,000-ish). Maybe there are thousands of books with more page reads than that; I don't know. But that's my data for today. I'm pretty sure that in the good ol' days its rank would have been quite a lot higher.


----------



## Hope

David VanDyke said:


> I got the "business" email as well.
> 
> I said I'd report results from tweaking and republishing.
> 
> Background: I tweaked and republished all my KU books based a situation of a few days earlier, where KDP sent me a nastygram saying seven of my books had keywords that were out of line (had the word "kindle" in them--these had been this way for years BTW). Okay, fine, removed those and saw an immediate jump in page reads but not retail sales, which argues against a jump in discoverability. Why would page reads go up, then? My only reasonable theory was that the republishing process somehow rebooted the books' ability to register page reads. That or it was a complete coincidence, but with seven books seeing an immediate boost, probably not. It could also have been reporting lag for those books only that caused the day before to be low and the next day to be high.
> 
> Overall, though, my page reads began trending higher. I did release a German version book, but subtracting out those page reads, my blue line is still trending higher.
> 
> Republishing all the other books did not seem to have the same obvious effect that republishing the seven offenders did. Some went up, some went down, all within the expected range of statistical variation.
> 
> My two new KU box sets did not contribute significantly to this rise, despite being both above the 3000 cap, because they both seem to be stuck in Page Flip limbo. Most days they show fewer than 100 page reads, which is preposterous for a 3000-KENP book that has sold hundreds of retail copies. *I am seriously considering republishing from scratch with new ASINs to see if that reboots the process. *
> 
> Has anyone done that, by the way? If so, to what result?
> 
> Yet, overall, my page reads continue to creep upward instead of downward, which is a good thing, though still unexplained.


How do you do this? Unpublish the current listing and create a completely new listing with the same content?

On 10/5 I released the third book in a series that has been selling moderately well for me. The first two books have stuck in the ranks from 8,00-20,000 for a couple of months and I thought for sure book three would do just as well. I've had very few sales and fewer page reads on it though. Rank is high, in the 80,000's. On 10/5, I borrowed the book and read through it. I thought the page reads registered, but I realized this morning that the banner that normally appears on the product page telling you the date you bought/borrowed a book was missing from this one. So I borrowed it again, and now there's a banner saying I borrowed it today, 10/10. It did open on the last page, so maybe the original page reads did register on the 5th. But I paged through the whole thing again a couple of hours ago just to see, but haven't seen any page reads on my report yet.

I know it could just be a dud of a book... 

Edited to add: As soon as I released book 3, books 1 &2 dropped to the mid 40,000's in rank and stayed there until late last night. They are starting to recover today, but still aren't back at where they were.


----------



## Hope

Indiecognito said:


> I have an older book that had over 8,000 pages read and 8 sales yesterday, and its rank isn't great (13,000-ish). Maybe there are thousands of books with more page reads than that; I don't know. But that's my data for today. I'm pretty sure that in the good ol' days its rank would have been quite a lot higher.


I agree, your rank should be much higher. I have a couple of books that bounce around the 13,000 mark in rank and I've never gotten anywhere near 8,000 page reads in a day. Unless your book is super long, of course. Mine isn't, so that would make up for some of it, but still...


----------



## H.C.

I'm at 5 straight days without a page read?

During the rest of my time combined I only had one day without a page read. Seems strange.


----------



## KaraKing

WasAnn said:


> Could it be that there was an algo change that just happens to coincide with the page flip feature being noticed? A change that perhaps gave a lesser advantage to older works?


Yes, I do think there's been a change to the algos and it happened a few months ago. It also happened to both my kindle and my paperback. I noticed a few months ago when searching that my book started showing below newer books with far less ranking. Then, two books in particular that I always beat out in ranking suddenly knocked me off my spot and I can't seem to get back there. So yes, I have noticed that newer books seem to be performing better than older books. Algo changes compounded with page read fiasco... hmmm. Still doesn't explain why changes aren't going through review properly, but that could be due to KDP staff being over whelmed?


----------



## tresero

David VanDyke said:


> I have a permafree title that has continued to steadily climb on its own, without promotion, so for me, no, that hasn't happened.
> 
> Also for me, my older books are doing fine; it's my brand-new books that are showing massive under-reporting, probably due to page flip.


My permafree is fine, and older books are lower, but the problem is new releases still not showing page reads. 90% below typical.


----------



## AliceS

I've had no or single digit reads combined with 2 500-ish spikes for the past 2 weeks. That's with promotion... I'm glad to see other people are questioning their numbers because it means it might mean that my promos weren't useless.


----------



## Indiecognito

katygirl said:


> I agree, your rank should be much higher. I have a couple of books that bounce around the 13,000 mark in rank and I've never gotten anywhere near 8,000 page reads in a day. Unless your book is super long, of course. Mine isn't, so that would make up for some of it, but still...


It's not short, but not incredibly long, either--a few hundred pages. Anyhow, I've been a little puzzled at my numbers over the last few days for sure.


----------



## Avis Black

It sounds to me like Amazon is running a bot that is checking the authenticity of page reads and borrows, and this bot is creating a huge reporting lag.  It's possible this bot is reporting in batches, and the strange, jerky bounces in book ranks that people are seeing are caused by this.


----------



## David VanDyke

katygirl said:


> How do you do this? Unpublish the current listing and create a completely new listing with the same content?


Yes, that's what I'm trying with one of the two box sets, the one that's selling less.


----------



## Hope

David VanDyke said:


> Yes, that's what I'm trying with one of the two box sets, the one that's selling less.


I would love to hear how it goes. I hope it helps. Please keep us updated.


----------



## David VanDyke

Avis Black said:


> It sounds to me like Amazon is running a bot that is checking the authenticity of page reads and borrows, and this bot is creating a huge reporting lag. It's possible this bot is reporting in batches, and the strange, jerky bounces in book ranks that people are seeing are caused by this.


Not according to my experiment. My own full borrow/all pages read of my own book showed up within 12 hours. A different borrow using my iPhone and page flip mode for a different book showed 1 page only read, also within hours.

The main books that are ridiculously flat (two 3000-KENP box sets with hundreds of retail sales) now have 9 days of track record and the borrows are negligible. Something would have shown up with 9 days, and my experiments would not have shown up so fast, if that's what was happening to me.


----------



## A past poster

My sales have flat lined for the past two days, and this is after a promotion. The only book I have in KU hasn't had page reads since Sept. 13.


----------



## Going Incognito

I've got a multi-author bundle getting sales that hasn't had a single page read reported since sept 24.

That 2% correction thingy that put money into our September bucket- I've since had some removed like Becca has. 

Anyone else with the paperback options on their dash that has every unpublished title on their dash missing a cover?


----------



## dorihoxa

The paperback line disappeared from my dashboard. So, so strange


----------



## Nancy_G

Going Incognito said:


> I've got a multi-author bundle getting sales that hasn't had a single page read reported since sept 24.
> 
> That 2% correction thingy that put money into our September bucket- I've since had some removed like Becca has.
> 
> Anyone else with the paperback options on their dash that has every unpublished title on their dash missing a cover?


Yes, my unpublished work is missing a cover now, which is fine with me.


----------



## Queen Mab

I republished an unpublished story recently and the cover (missing on the dashboard) went right back up. Just thought I'd add that to the mix...


----------



## KelliWolfe

Testing in production. Pure win.


----------



## Randall Wood

Now I imagine those same Amazon people all screaming "Hold on for a damn minute, will you!!" .....frickin authors just can't quit their bitchin!.  

So we had Prime Reading, the paperback dashboard thing, and the page-flip addition, all at once. Plus a possible algo change. 

"Who's the dumbass that said 'Let's do it all at once!' 

-fingers point-

"Great idea, Carl!"


----------



## KingSweden

Taking a stab at the suggestion to re-upload all I did was sub out one keyword. Have a Countdown Deal next week, we'll see what happens...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## horrordude1973

I just got this email back from them. I contacted them a few days ago and this was their reply. Sounds like they are working on it:

“We have completed our monthly audit of September pages-read data. We regularly monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior. Total audit adjustments for the month were an increase of roughly 2% of pages read (though the amount will vary from author to author). We are currently updating reports and changes should be visible within the next day.

We expect the September fund to increase again compared to August and will release the new figure by mid-month as usual.

Thanks for the recent questions from some authors about how Page Flip is being used by customers and its possible impact to pages read. Page Flip is designed to make it easy to explore and navigate in books while automatically saving your place, and that is how customers are using it.  We checked for effects on pages read before launching Page Flip, and investigated it again to re-confirm that there is no impact. We do not see any material reading volume happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely.”


----------



## Hope

I just looked at my new release.  My page length just decreased by 16 pages.  I haven't done anything to it.


----------



## RuthNestvold

I got the "Thank you for this information" email too, like a lot of other people up-thread. 

A couple of data points: 

- A fan contacted me after reading my blog post, said she was going to read Island of Glass, and contacted me again when she was done. Those pages registered, but she didn't use page flip mode. 

- The rankings of my books have all gone belly-up -- but strangely enough, when I checked yesterday, Yseult had climbed back up from 200,000+ to around 70,000 -- after 20 pages read. Huh? That definitely looks like the page-flip problem to me. 

- My sales for everything have tanked, not just older books. I personally think that whatever algorithm they are using now factors in how prawny an author is to start with. :/


----------



## Going Incognito

Randall Wood said:


> Now I imagine those same Amazon people all screaming "Hold on for a damn minute, will you!!" .....frickin authors just can't quit their b*tchin!.
> 
> So we had Prime Reading, the paperback dashboard thing, and the page-flip addition, all at once. Plus a possible algo change.
> 
> "Who's the dumbass that said 'Let's do it all at once!'
> 
> -fingers point-
> 
> "Great idea, Carl!"


That made me literally lol, thank you.

And thanks, Carl! *to be read in the 'Thanks, Obama!' voice.*


----------



## Gertie Kindle

As a reader, I hate page flip. When I tried to sync an audiobook to the ebooks, page flip doesn't allow it to happen. And it's not as if I turned on page flip myself. If I accidentally tap the wrong place on the screen, it turns on page flip.


----------



## MarionMyles

I can't honestly tell if my page reads are off or not but what I have noticed is my sales have disappeared. The last sale I had was 4 days ago and since I'm running Facebook ads I have a pretty good idea of my sales conversion per ad click. Has anyone else noticed a complete drop off of sales these past few days?


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Loosecannon

I've been following this thread for quite a while now, and the drop in page reads issue seems to be very odd, and perplexing. Some have seized on the Page-Flip being buggy as the possible reason but I am not sure that it isn't just a another bug in the overall system.

The key thing I have noticed is that it is not too easy to tell if your page-reads are decreasing normally or it is a systemic error caused by Amazon somehow intentional (algorithm changes) or unintentional (just incorrect lower counts due to errors). As the problem orginally seemed to be noticed by more people as occuring at some timeframe within Sept. and Amazon seeming to acknowledge via tech support that issues in that timeframe were legitimate; I decided to focus my analysis on this snapshot in time. (despite seeing some other zero day patterns in a smaller way appearing in early August too).

I publish one author's group of over 50+ titles of which 90% are in Select. Using the Sales Dashboard I looked at each of those titles KENP read for 90 days view to see if I could see any specific patterns. At first it was almost random or inconclusive, and I ended up discarding all the bottom 25% as slow sellers anyways. Of the rest I then began to see some chunks of time in September that had recurring zero days. Looking at the previous 90 days I also discarded a few more that had normally occuring dry spells of 3 or more zero days in the previous 60 days. That left about 12 titles that seemed to have a pattern of 3 or more days in a row (or more) - this data was transferred to a spreadsheet so I could see the overlaps. (image below - purple boxes are zero pages day for that title)

What I noticed was a set of 'chunks' where numerous titles all had zero pages read, _9/02-9/07_, _9/08-9/12_, _9/12-9/22 or 23_. To me this really feels like an error of some sort due to a reporting code change (perhaps on the backend), that effected some titles groups as opposed to others. You can see the earliest chunk on my graph is only effecting one series. Then maybe even a attempted fix that then affected other titles than the earlier problems. Only a theory...but maybe others could look for similar time 'chunks' of zero page days reported too. And, see if like me, older titles had longer zero day drought periods which could point to a algo change favoring newer releases.

Would be great if we could get DataGuy to jump in with some more statistical analysis on this mystery for us...Hugh tell us if your Sept. page counts are looking wonky at all...inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## KelliWolfe

The problem isn't page flip. 

1. The feature is only available to a limited subset of our readers. Older Kindle devices that make up a big chunk of the user base haven't had firmware updates issued that would allow it at all. Not all users with newer hardware or the Kindle app on their iPhone/iPad or Android devices have run the updates needed to get the new feature. And it's not available at all on the PC reader software. That leaves a very substantial portion of our readers who don't have access to it.

2. A lot of the users who have access to the feature probably don't know about it

3. Most people reading fiction aren't going to use it at all. It's really not particularly useful if you're reading a short story or novel. Yes, there are a small number of cases where it can be, but for the most part people aren't going to be using page flip to read entire novels.

While we may be losing some tiny fraction of page reads to people using it, especially if your book is non-fiction, it doesn't make any sense to blame the sudden massive drop-off in page reads on it.


----------



## Hope

Ren Benton said:


> I updated an old book to add the description of my new book to the back matter. It's now 29 KENP shorter.
> 
> Since the beginning of September, I've seen high-performance AMS ads die, returns double, and sales and KU cut in half. I hope someone is benefiting from whatever they did while I change every plan I had for the next year to reflect the new reality.


This wasn't KENP. It's the page count on the book listing page. I think KENP did go down, but I don't remember what it was for sure.


----------



## Some Random Guy

Oh for frack's sake. I just did a quick run through my bookshelf and four of my six books dropped 5 pages each in terms of KENP length recently without my uploading any changes.  It's less than 1%, granted, but still.  First the KU crap over the last few weeks (or I suspect, months... my last two releases haven't behaved normally), and now they're nickel and diming on KENP.  Has the almighty Zon figured out its current KU business model is too much of a loss leader?


----------



## Hope

Eric Thomson said:


> Oh for frack's sake. I just did a quick run through my bookshelf and four of my six books dropped 5 pages each in terms of KENP length recently without my uploading any changes. It's less than 1%, granted, but still. First the KU crap over the last few weeks (or I suspect, months... my last two releases haven't behaved normally), and now they're nickel and diming on KENP. Has the almighty Zon figured out its current KU business model is too much of a loss leader?


What about page length on the product pages? Any difference there?


----------



## Some Random Guy

katygirl said:


> What about page length on the product pages? Any difference there?


My books are available in paperback so the product pages display the print lengths which are unrelated to KENP


----------



## David VanDyke

KelliWolfe said:


> The problem isn't page flip.


The problem may not ONLY be page flip, but I tried it out myself and it does exactly what I suspected: it yields only 1 page read, no matter how many pages are flipped.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

KelliWolfe said:


> The problem isn't page flip.
> 
> 1. The feature is only available to a limited subset of our readers. Older Kindle devices that make up a big chunk of the user base haven't had firmware updates issued that would allow it at all. Not all users with newer hardware or the Kindle app on their iPhone/iPad or Android devices have run the updates needed to get the new feature. And it's not available at all on the PC reader software. That leaves a very substantial portion of our readers who don't have access to it.
> 
> 2. A lot of the users who have access to the feature probably don't know about it
> 
> 3. Most people reading fiction aren't going to use it at all. It's really not particularly useful if you're reading a short story or novel. Yes, there are a small number of cases where it can be, but for the most part people aren't going to be using page flip to read entire novels.
> 
> While we may be losing some tiny fraction of page reads to people using it, especially if your book is non-fiction, it doesn't make any sense to blame the sudden massive drop-off in page reads on it.


You may be right, but I just checked every one of my 40+ books. Page flip is enabled on all of them.


----------



## Hope

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> You may be right, but I just checked every one of my 40+ books. Page flip is enabled on all of them.


And Page flip is easily enabled accidentally. I've done it over and over without meaning to. I can read a book quite easily in this mode on my ipad mini.


----------



## Not any more

David VanDyke said:


> I said I'd report results from tweaking and republishing.
> 
> Background: I tweaked and republished all my KU books based a situation of a few days earlier, where KDP sent me a nastygram saying seven of my books had keywords that were out of line (had the word "kindle" in them--these had been this way for years BTW). Okay, fine, removed those and saw an immediate jump in page reads but not retail sales, which argues against a jump in discoverability. Why would page reads go up, then? My only reasonable theory was that the republishing process somehow rebooted the books' ability to register page reads. That or it was a complete coincidence, but with seven books seeing an immediate boost, probably not. It could also have been reporting lag for those books only that caused the day before to be low and the next day to be high.
> 
> Overall, though, my page reads began trending higher. I did release a German version book, but subtracting out those page reads, my blue line is still trending higher.
> Yet, overall, my page reads continue to creep upward instead of downward, which is a good thing, though still unexplained.


To continue the magical thinking, I tweaked all of my books keywords and prices. Page reads per day doubled, then doubled again. Still not great, but in two days doubled what I had in the previous week.

Next, I plan to draw a pentacle and dance nude under the full moon while beseeching the Great God Bezos to bring rain to my crops.


----------



## Hope

brkingsolver said:


> To continue the magical thinking, I tweaked all of my books keywords and prices. Page reads per day doubled, then doubled again. Still not great, but in two days doubled what I had in the previous week.
> 
> Next, I plan to draw a pentacle and dance nude under the full moon while beseeching the Great God Bezos to bring rain to my crops.


How much tweaking did you do? On pricing did you change the price you have them listed at? Or do you think just deleting it and then putting it back up would be enough? The great god Bezos doesn't like us.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

A user on another forum (same one where I first saw the page flip thing before testing it) says they spoke with KDP.

According to them, the rep said that KDP has implemented some kind of a change to combat fraud.

It's highly likely that it's not functioning properly, casting too wide a net, etc. and that's why people have been having issues.


----------



## KelliWolfe

I find that a far more believable scenario. How many times have we seen Amazon go after a problem like the KU scammers with all the grace and finesse of a sledgehammer-wielding lunatic on PCP, and crush a bunch of innocent bystanders in the process?


----------



## Hope

KelliWolfe said:


> I find that a far more believable scenario. How many times have we seen Amazon go after a problem like the KU scammers with all the grace and finesse of a sledgehammer-wielding lunatic on PCP, and crush a bunch of innocent bystanders in the process?


Wow. That's a really accurate description, lol. Oh boy....


----------



## David VanDyke

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> You may be right, but I just checked every one of my 40+ books. Page flip is enabled on all of them.


Page flip is enabled by device and app, not by book, I believe. Though "Enhanced Typesetting" is apparently necessary for page flip to work.


----------



## David VanDyke

brkingsolver said:


> To continue the magical thinking, I tweaked all of my books keywords and prices. Page reads per day doubled, then doubled again. Still not great, but in two days doubled what I had in the previous week.
> 
> Next, I plan to draw a pentacle and dance nude under the full moon while beseeching the Great God Bezos to bring rain to my crops.


If you're being serious, hey, that's pretty magical. Or miraculous. Who cares, if it works?


----------



## JRTomlin

brkingsolver said:


> To continue the magical thinking, I tweaked all of my books keywords and prices. Page reads per day doubled, then doubled again. Still not great, but in two days doubled what I had in the previous week.
> 
> Next, I plan to draw a pentacle and dance nude under the full moon while beseeching the Great God Bezos to bring rain to my crops.


All we old-timers will tell you that what is required is the ritual sacrifice of a black goat.


----------



## KelliWolfe

JRTomlin said:


> All we old-timers will tell you that what is required is the ritual sacrifice of a black goat.


Wait. I thought _Apple_ wanted the black goats, and Beelzebezos required tossing virgins into the Well of Death. Oh, shoot. I've been doing it backwards the whole time, haven't I?


----------



## Gertie Kindle

katygirl said:


> And Page flip is easily enabled accidentally. I've done it over and over without meaning to. I can read a book quite easily in this mode on my ipad mini.


Yes, I've done it too.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

David VanDyke said:


> Page flip is enabled by device and app, not by book, I believe. Though "Enhanced Typesetting" is apparently necessary for page flip to work.


Look on your product page. It will say "page flip: enabled."


----------



## KelliWolfe

Awesome. Blame the victim, and if you don't see it, it doesn't exist.

Perhaps you should lay the blame on Amazon's doorstep, where it rightfully belongs. They implemented a system that was poorly designed and thought out from the outset. The thing is that *they don't care*. They never have. They're perfectly happy to sell plagiarized books - because they get their cut regardless. They don't care if the page reads system breaks - because they get their subscription fees regardless.

They lied about being able to determine the actual number of pages being read. They did an arbitrary cut of 20% of our books' KENPC pages across the board. They still haven't figured out the first problem, and now people are reporting _another_ reduction in KENPC pages. They were able to accurately report the number of borrows in KU 1.0, but deliberately hid that information from us in KU 2.0. Now they've screwed something up so that people are seeing up to an 90% loss in their page reads.

Sales are one thing - those are tied to financial transactions that *must* be rigorously accounted for. But at this point why should anyone trust Amazon to accurately report anything that happens in KU?


----------



## Crystal_

David VanDyke said:


> Page flip is enabled by device and app, not by book, I believe. Though "Enhanced Typesetting" is apparently necessary for page flip to work.


I don't think so. Two of my books say Page Flip enabled. Three fail to mention it (I haven't checked the others). What I want to know is: how do I disable Page Flip? There's no rhyme or reason to two of the five books in my series being enabled. All of them were formatted and uploaded the same way. It's confounding.


----------



## tresero

888888 said:


> You got me wrong I DO blame Amazon. But I've worked at a large Fortune 20 Tech co and know they don't do [crap] until people complain.
> 
> Also not sure how you are a "victim" if some "scammer" is exploiting KU. So the payout goes down a bit consider it a cost of doing business. It's better than the alternative as we can see now LOL .Based on your logic I must be a HUGE VICTIM as I push millions of reads LOL.
> 
> Large tech cos also will never release a "perfect" solution and there will always be "exploits", you just have to live with them.
> 
> The rest of the stuff you mentioned in your post is 100% spot on and they have been secretly reducing KENPC on books (old/new) AFTER the 20% cut on KU 2.0. They don't care about us we are just cattle to them waiting to be slaughtered.
> 
> *Anyway I only posted here as I know Amazon trolls this forum and hoping they know not everyone is blind to THEIR "SCAM". And that their reporting is SUSPECT. Will be moving 20% of my list out of KU as a result. ADAPT OR DIE.*
> 
> Bye bye and back to publishing!


If that's the case, KU is finished. Not sure it is yet, but we have 5 days to find out.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

KU was a strategic move to put Oyster and SCRIBD out of business. It worked beautifully. Now that it's achieved it's task the flaws are becoming more visible. The KU system is vulnerable to scams. Amazon can't really track pages (and pay) for pages read accurately. Worst of all the system shifts a lot of the business risks onto indies. Amazon has done a good job of protecting themselves from the pitfalls of the system. Since the money comes from a pool their financial loss is limited. 

I've been at this since 2011. I've watched things go from $2.09 per sale to the current half-penny per page read. Now this latest scenario which feels a lot like KU3's stealth launch.  Amazon's big mistake will be underestimating how much indie authors really contribute to KU's success.


----------



## Going Incognito

Ren Benton said:


> Maybe it's not a success. I remember when Scribd was forced to cut its romance catalog because subscribers' reading habits vastly exceeded expectations and they were losing money. I've been wondering if Amazon's intention is to drive publishers out of KU and shift their subscription model entirely to Prime Reading, which they can rule with an iron fist. It doesn't make sense for them to keep two reading subscriptions, and they want the whole world in Prime.


I could totally see that. 
Hand picked titles, $500 a pop to use them for a set period. No pay for borrows or reads. No one screaming for data. No scammers, no embarrassing for Amazon to admit exists sexy books invited. KU? What KU? Oh, that failed experiment that hemorrhaged money? Yeah. We don't do that anymore.


----------



## KelliWolfe

KU is not and never has been about making a profit from ebook subscriptions. It's not a viable business model. The other subscription services have either shut down or had to drastically curtail their offerings (by essentially eliminating romance and erotica) or else limiting the number of books which can be borrowed to the point where it makes very little sense to participate. Oyster lasted until the venture capital ran out. Scribd is staying afloat with fresh infusions of VC money and the fact that a huge chunk of their subscribers are there for access to the shared document repository rather than to borrow ebooks.

KU's success lies in luring people into the Amazon storefront where they then buy other items. In that sense, Amazon has said it is successful, the average KU subscriber spending more when they go to the store than readers who don't subscribe. This is why information on our books on our own product pages is steadily shrinking so Amazon can instead display other higher-priced items. Amazon doesn't care if the customer buys or borrows your book. You got them into the store, so you served your purpose.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## 75845

Scribd went much further than culling most romance titles (the ones that remained were probably tied to trade contracts), as they later limited premium books (presumably trade published) to 3 reads per month. I mostly read trade stuff on Scribd so immediately began using up my audio book credits so I could cancel.  I do not know how that developed since I left nearly a year ago . At most I read 3 books a month on Scribd so would end up paying nearly as much per book as I am prepared to pay to buy (being a cheapskate with a massive TBR list). 

I will probably put books into Scribd when I go wide. Plans to focus my non fiction on the KU student market have been cancelled and I've asked KDP if they will unenroll all my books that automatically re-enrolled in September while this was unfolding without KDP warning its suppliers that they were going skew whiff. I only made the request a few hours ago so it will be a while before I know if I go wide in a day or so or a day or so before Christmas.


----------



## Going Incognito

Ren Benton said:


> Considering I know at least one author who accepted the invitation with no advance and no royalty (the only benefit to him the "exposure" for his other books), it becomes even more attractive to Amazon.


Really? Every author I know who accepted (5? Maybe 8?) were all offered $500. Wow. Wonder how they decide who to offer cash to.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

I think several things are going on here. Personally, my pages fell a bit, but September has always been my worst month and they fell exactly where I expected them to fall. I don't know what it is about September for me, but I always see a noticeable drop. My October is already back up. So, what do I think is happening?
1. Amazon has finally plugged the furthest page read vs. actual pages read problem. A lot of people were getting inflated numbers that way. I think the people feeling the switch the most will be those who have those huge big box sets where people download them and only read one story. Before, a lot of people were getting credit for a read of the entire thing when maybe only one thing was being read. I don't think that's the case now, though. People have been doing some testing in other groups and that seems to be confirmed as far as most people can tell. I also think those who don't get a lot of pages read to begin with will feel the pinch because it's simply more noticeable to them.
2. Amazon further bore down into the KENP code. They're trying to eradicate anything that artificially inflates pages. I'm not saying everyone is purposely doing it (although the sheer number of people asking how to inflate their KENP would indicate some people are trying to do it). Amazon will keep tweaking until there's no way to do it, but it's an ongoing process.
3. Amazon recently changed the way All-Star bonuses are computed. It used to be that if you had John Smith as author on three books, John Smith and Jane Doe as authors on two books, and John Smith and Frank Jones as authors on two books that John Smith would get credit toward an All-Star bonus for each configuration. Now everything is broken out. John Smith alone tallies page reads for a bonus, John Smith and Jane Doe tally reads for a bonus together, and John Smith and Frank Jones tally page reads together. They don't overlap. Why is that significant? I think Amazon is clearly trying to cut down on the graft and the way people were manipulating to double-dip. I don't think it's important in and of itself as much as I think it's part of the bigger picture. Amazon seems dedicated to working against the scam issues right now. That means they often over correct.
4. Page Flip seems to be an issue. I personally don't have Page Flip as an option on my Kindle so I can't comment but enough people have tested it to make me think it probably is. I'm sure Amazon is working on it but I'm sure that it's frustrating for people and I totally understand that they're angry. I would be angry, too.
5. The entire system seems to be delayed, with also boughts coming in late and hurting new releases. I've seen it twice now. Once with also viewed and also boughts flipping for weeks and once with a new release that saw also boughts come in way late and affect the launch. That is also frustrating but when you're dealing with technology you have to expect glitches.

As for the Prime Reading, I think people are seeing what they want to see. Prime Reading isn't meant as a way to replace KU. It's simply meant as a way to entice more Prime members to subscribe to KU. They're curating content by picking one title by one author (for the most part) and leaving everything else out to draw readers into being fans by offering a sampling of stuff. I have not heard of anyone not being paid to be in the program and I know a good 50 authors included, so I honestly can't see them not paying someone. That sounds like miscommunication to me.
I think Amazon is working on the issues but that's little comfort to those seeing huge losses. I don't blame people for being angry but I'm taking a "wait and see" approach. I'm just kind of watching the situation right now.


----------



## Going Incognito

Ah, Amanda's thoughts do make sense. I hadn't heard about the new way to do All-Star bonuses, tho admittedly it's been a while since I got one. And I personally have never read an entire bundle myself. Some books in a bundle aren't to my liking. 
There's currently no way to keep books we pub from being 'enabled' is there? Seems to be a crap shoot. Crap.


----------



## Going Incognito

And you never bundle, correct Amanda? No bundles of books 1-5 together or anything? Nothing but standalones and you aren't nearly as affected. Interesting. Thank you.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Going Incognito said:


> And you never bundle, correct Amanda? No bundles of books 1-5 together or anything? Nothing but standalones and you aren't nearly as affected. Interesting. Thank you.


I do three-book omnibuses in each series (just bundle as I go) but I don't offer them at really low prices and I don't move very many units so my bundling is kind of non-existent.


----------



## Anarchist

Amanda M. Lee said:


> ...


----------



## Abalone

There's always the off chance of Hallmark starting to sell ebooks in the romance category. But if it's anything like their god-awful in-house films... eek!


----------



## Going Incognito

It sure is something that knowing our borrow data would help with. Are a million people borrowing bundles and reading an ave of one or two stories? Or are a thousand people borrowing bundles and reading them all. And on the one multi author bundle I have that is showing sales but still has zero page reads on the entire thing since sept 24, Amazon are you really telling me that people are buying it but not one single person borrowed it? 
Ugh. 

So, if scammers have been stopped, people are getting paid for actual, real pages read, even if delayed, and the page flip is really working as Zon intended, come oct 15 we should see those 10 cents a page payments Amazon always intended from the very beginning, per their example. Sweet. Bring it on. *rolls eyes*


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Not any more

I keep reading on this forum about Amazon "losing money" from KU. Someone is going to have to explain to me how that is possible. Their payout is predicated on an income stream they've already collected ('the pot'). I think the chances of Zon ending or radically modifying KU as far as readers are concerned are practically nonexistent. Changes for authors? Probably. Trying to fix the issues as Amanda says above? Probably. Trying to screw authors? Probably not. 

One of the things people need to keep in mind is that screwing authors and getting bad publicity does not enhance Amazon's profit or business model. Are we often collateral damage? Yes, but that's because we've chosen to get in bed with them. This whole ebook publishing and distribution thing is still relatively new and evolving.


----------



## Going Incognito

brkingsolver said:


> I keep reading on this forum about Amazon "losing money" from KU. Someone is going to have to explain to me how that is possible. Their payout is predicated on an income stream they've already collected ('the pot'). I think the chances of Zon ending or radically modifying KU as far as readers are concerned are practically nonexistent. Changes for authors? Probably. Trying to fix the issues as Amanda says above? Probably. Trying to screw authors? Probably not.
> 
> One of the things people need to keep in mind is that screwing authors and getting bad publicity does not enhance Amazon's profit or business model. Are we often collateral damage? Yes, but that's because we've chosen to get in bed with them. This whole ebook publishing and distribution thing is still relatively new and evolving.


There's no way that pot is legit. Not when they have to add millions to it every month. Not at the rate books are being added to KU every day. There's no way a legit 'the 10 bucks a month from KU users go into a pot' can consistently pay the same basic not quite a half cent rate every time if it's a real division of funds. It's not possible the KU readers rise at the exact same rate every month perfectly keeping up with so many books get added to KU every month, keeping the payouts so very close to stable.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

brkingsolver said:


> I keep reading on this forum about Amazon "losing money" from KU. Someone is going to have to explain to me how that is possible. Their payout is predicated on an income stream they've already collected ('the pot'). I think the chances of Zon ending or radically modifying KU as far as readers are concerned are practically nonexistent. Changes for authors? Probably. Trying to fix the issues as Amanda says above? Probably. Trying to screw authors? Probably not.
> 
> One of the things people need to keep in mind is that screwing authors and getting bad publicity does not enhance Amazon's profit or business model. Are we often collateral damage? *Yes, but that's because we've chosen to get in bed with them. This whole ebook publishing and distribution thing is still relatively new and evolving.*


I don't think Amazon is purposely trying to screw authors. I think Amazon is doing what it does best -- looking out for Amazon. I read Amanda's post twice just to absorb all the information. If I was a gambler I'd put money on her observations being spot on. Pages read were probably inflated under the previous system and some adjustments were made. We were all waiting for KU3 and I think KU3 has happened.

KU is popular because thousands of indie authors encouraged their followers to join. We put our books in and then directed tons of traffic to Amazon using Facebook ads. As a result inventory on competing web sites shrunk -- and reading ebooks has become primarily Amazon centric. Now things have shifted so does that mean we'll see a shift to more authors going wide?

This whole thing is interesting to say the least.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Amanda M. Lee said:


> 1. Amazon has finally plugged the furthest page read vs. actual pages read problem.


It's *possible*, but I consider it very unlikely without firmware updates to existing Kindles. Amazon has always collected the "last page read" data to synch your reading location across devices. Until KU 2.0 there was no need at all for them to track actual pages read, so it's highly doubtful that they had code in place to send that data from the reading devices to the Amazon servers. From a software standpoint they wouldn't want to have to deal with the network bandwidth and database/server I/O if they didn't have to, because that type of data is extremely "chatty" and resource intensive. So they'd have to add the functionality into all the existing devices via a firmware update, but we haven't seen that happen on millions of older devices, like the first generation Kindle Fires which haven't had a firmware update since early 2015 before KU 2.0 was rolled out.

It's remotely possible that Amazon was already collecting all of this data, but then why were they still relying on the "last page read" value for page reads 16 months after KU 2.0 came out, especially after finding out how easy it was to generate "fake" page reads with a link straight to the back of the book?



brkingsolver said:


> I keep reading on this forum about Amazon "losing money" from KU. Someone is going to have to explain to me how that is possible. Their payout is predicated on an income stream they've already collected ('the pot'). I think the chances of Zon ending or radically modifying KU as far as readers are concerned are practically nonexistent. Changes for authors? Probably. Trying to fix the issues as Amanda says above? Probably. Trying to screw authors? Probably not.


You're making the assumption that "the pot" is strictly made up of money that they've collected from KU subscriptions. Without having access to the number of subscriptions they sell every month, you can't make that claim. When you consider that trad-pubbed books in KU aren't paid for from that pot, and that the outlay remains quite stable despite Amazon giving away tens of thousands of free KU subscription months over the holidays, it seems quite unlikely that it's the case. It's quite possible for them to be bleeding money through KU, but since it's a loss leader for them it really isn't an issue. For Amazon, it's a trivial amount. The KU figures are a fraction of the ebook figures which are a small fraction of the digital sales figures. It would be nothing more than a footnote if they even bothered to break it out in the quarterly earnings reports.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I ran a test and books are still counted as full reads if you skip to the end via the TOC. For this purpose, I uploaded a full length novel. I made sure I was the only one who dowloaded it in KU by pulling it after I did.

My own experiments have shown so far that:

1. The file format has no effect. Vellum, Scrivener, word file, it doesn't matter.

2. Including a bonus book or using multiple volumes in Vellum has no effect.

3. Page flip is enabled by book. Books either have it or don't, regardless of whether a Kindle device has the capability. The apps most definitely have it.

4. Using Vellum does not disable pageflip on a book. The book I used to test page flip was formatted in Vellum.

So far, nothing has been isolated that had any verifiable, testable impact on reads beyond pageflip.

However, several of the authors I'm on contact with are reporting that they're getting between 30 and 100 reads for every sale when 200 to 500 reads for every sale would be more normal depending on total book KENPC. Many authors are seeing a reduction in their total reads by as much as 90%.

There is simply no way reader behavior or fraudulent activity accounts for that.

All of the reports from authors for the last six weeks point to a massive, systemic bug that they don't have a handle on. There's no way 90% of the reads in the store were fraudulent up until September 5.

More importantly, the data for September will be released soon. If it turns out that the overall reads in the store remained stable or increased from August to September, it effectively proves that this is not a new normal or intentional and that there is a glitch that's randomly cutting off 90% of reads from legitimate authors.

People are starting to panic. I'm starting to panic. Amazon really needs to address this in a definite concrete way and give us some transparency.



Going Incognito said:


> There's no way that pot is legit. Not when they have to add millions to it every month. Not at the rate books are being added to KU every day. There's no way a legit 'the 10 bucks a month from KU users go into a pot' can consistently pay the same basic not quite a half cent rate every time if it's a real division of funds. It's not possible the KU readers rise at the exact same rate every month perfectly keeping up with so many books get added to KU every month, keeping the payouts so very close to stable.


Kindle Unlimited was not intended to turn a profit (reader subscription revenues > cost of the program). It's a loss leader, plain and simple. The more things Amazon gets people to subscribe to- Prime, video services, Kindle Unlimited, etc- the more the consumer is hooked into their ecosystem and less likely to migrate away from it. If they have a Kindle tablet and use Kindle Unlimited and their whole digital media library (books, movies, mobile games, apps) is on Amazon, they're far, far less likely to just randomly drop all that and migrate to Apple, especially when Amazon makes using their Apps on apple painful (can't make any in app purchases)

The costs of KU have nothing to do with this. Amazon more than likely was legit trying to make the program fair to prevent people pulling out. In August, the top KU bonuses were out of reach for authors with less than 12 million reads. Something went screwy, scammers using large numbers of books that aren't highly visible in the store, skewed the system, and Amazon acted to prevent that and normalize reads and bonuses.

As a result, they broke the system. Authors need to keep up pressure on them to get this fixed as soon as possible.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

The entire cost of KU is a rounding error on Amazon's balance sheet and the effect of locking people into their digital ecosystem to rely on them as their sole content provider is a huge return on a fifteen million dollar per month investment, which is nothing for one of the biggest companies on earth.

This isn't a belt tightening or a strategy, they tried to fix something to make sure people stay in the successful KU program and they screwed it up.


----------



## 75845

Amazon cannot fix the furthest page read problem without losing most non fiction authors and a lot of their student subscribers. As a lecturer I did not expect students to read the entirety of each book they listed in their bibliography as part of the skill in essay writing is to learn how to focus in on the relevant parts of a book.  Why would a non fiction author be in KU if they only get paid for 30 pages of their 300 page book that otherwise would have been bought just so the reader could read those important 30 pages? If Amazon drove out non fiction a lot of subscribers would jump ship. Non fiction books are not read in the same way as novels and if Amazon try to remunerate non fiction writers as if they wrote a novel then KU will quickly become a fiction library.


----------



## Chrissy

KelliWolfe said:


> It's *possible*, but *I consider it very unlikely without firmware updates to existing Kindles.* Amazon has always collected the "last page read" data to synch your reading location across devices. Until KU 2.0 there was no need at all for them to track actual pages read, so it's highly doubtful that they had code in place to send that data from the reading devices to the Amazon servers. From a software standpoint they wouldn't want to have to deal with the network bandwidth and database/server I/O if they didn't have to, because that type of data is extremely "chatty" and resource intensive. So they'd have to add the functionality into all the existing devices via a firmware update, but we haven't seen that happen on millions of older devices, like the first generation Kindle Fires which haven't had a firmware update since early 2015 before KU 2.0 was rolled out.
> 
> It's remotely possible that Amazon was already collecting all of this data, but then why were they still relying on the "last page read" value for page reads 16 months after KU 2.0 came out, especially after finding out how easy it was to generate "fake" page reads with a link straight to the back of the book?
> You're making the assumption that "the pot" is strictly made up of money that they've collected from KU subscriptions. Without having access to the number of subscriptions they sell every month, you can't make that claim. When you consider that trad-pubbed books in KU aren't paid for from that pot, and that the outlay remains quite stable despite Amazon giving away tens of thousands of free KU subscription months over the holidays, it seems quite unlikely that it's the case. It's quite possible for them to be bleeding money through KU, but since it's a loss leader for them it really isn't an issue. For Amazon, it's a trivial amount. The KU figures are a fraction of the ebook figures which are a small fraction of the digital sales figures. It would be nothing more than a footnote if they even bothered to break it out in the quarterly earnings reports.


I just checked to make sure I remembered correctly.

On August 18th I got an email from to be sure and update my Kindle e-reader with new software.

So, I believe the software "hooks" for any fixes could easily have been put in then.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Amazon has been confirming that they changed something over the phone. It's not speculation at this point, no need to debunk it.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Chrissy said:


> I just checked to make sure I remembered correctly.
> 
> On August 18th I got an email from to be sure and update my Kindle e-reader with new software.
> 
> So, I believe the software "hooks" for any fixes could easily have been put in then.


*YOU* did. But millions of older Kindle devices have not gotten firmware updates in 18 months or more, since well before the KU 2.0 changeover from flat fees per borrow to payment by page reads.


----------



## jason2505

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Amazon has been confirming that they changed something over the phone. It's not speculation at this point, no need to debunk it.


Did you talk to them? If so, did they go into more detail than "something" or how they will proceed with this?


----------



## David VanDyke

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Look on your product page. It will say "page flip: enabled."


Granted, but the app and device must also support it.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

jason2505 said:


> Did you talk to them? If so, did they go into more detail than "something" or how they will proceed with this?


I've talked to several people who have. Unfortunately my last contact with them got the form email the sent quoting their forum post as a response.

The nature of the change was not disclosed, only that there was one.


----------



## jason2505

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I've talked to several people who have. Unfortunately my last contact with them got the form email the sent quoting their forum post as a response.
> 
> The nature of the change was not disclosed, only that there was one.


If that is true, I wonder why they made this change without notifying the authors but instead doing it more or less secretly. This way everything seems way less transparent.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Couple possible reasons they haven't announced it:

1. They're still testing it

2. They were going to, but realized it was broken first

3. They don't want to announce a change to scammers so the scammers can figure out how to pivot and take advantage of it

4. They actually have announced it, just in a weasely wordy way. Observe:

_"We regularly monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity" 10/6

"to ensure we are recording all legitimate reading activity" 10/5_


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## David VanDyke

I'm starting to get past the whole anxiety over this and trying to take a step back and evaluate the current state of wide vs. Select income. Fortunately I have some personal data and experience as I stayed wide until last fall (2015) when I switched over to Select for all my sci-fi.

In rough terms, for my sci-fi only, per month I was making $5K-$8K from Amazon, about $2K from all others, despite the same level of marketing for all vendors. 

As an aside, my mysteries and a small urban fantasy series brought in about $1000 a month total, split about 50/50 between Amazon and others.

When I went Select on all my sci-fi, my Amazon income roughly doubled overnight, so I was seeing $10K-$16K per month. Totally worth it for the last year. I credit it to fishing in a fresh KU pond (for me) and the increased rankings from borrows. I also bumped up my retail prices by a dollar with no ill effects (averaging $4.99 for follow-on books in series).

Currently, after coming off a pretty good summer (May sucked, but June, July and August were fine) this September page read issue hit. September looks to be a $9K Amazon month, the lowest since I've started all-in with Select. As far as I can tell, for me, absent other influences (such as a brand-new series that I will be releasing the first book this holiday season) if Amazon drops to $8K, I might as well go wide again.

Note that all these numbers are pretax gross and some of the income is owed to other authors for box sets. Note also that my German editions seem to have been unaffected by the page read problem, which means the English language page read problem is actually more severe by contrast.

Bottom line, this is a wake-up call. I still believe going Select was the right move at the time -- it put at least $60K extra in my pocket -- but this illustrates how the cheese can move and I have to move with it, and how it's safer, if not actually more profitable, to stay wide.


----------



## Atunah

There was a fairly recent update to update a fairly recent update to all kindles after the 2nd Paperwhite.  My Voyage just got it and my Oasis I got it myself. It was 5.8.2, which was already recent and now its 5.8.2.1

Yes, some still use older kindles, but since the PW1 came out in 2012, many more by now are using newer type kindles with the newer software. Starting with PW2, came out in 2013 I believe, they all have the same software. They might have to use some imaginative page counting for the older devices. There are also lots of folks that read with wifi off at all times. Just makes better battery life. Then they turn it on here and there to sync stuff. Who knows what that does to the page counting.

There was actually an update for my old basic kindle with buttons not that long ago also. Not as recent as the newer devices, but not 18 months either. I also got one on my K3. That device goes back to 2010. I don't think there'll be anything for the K1 anymore, the few that are still in operation. Mine still works, but I don't read on it anymore.

I do hope they fix whatever is going on. I like KU as a subscriber and I would hate to see a lot of folks leave the program. So far I haven't seen anything drop out of the stuff I have on my wishlists. I have 100's and 100's of tbr on my KU wishlists.



LilyBLily said:


> Then where do the voracious romance readers go? Amazon or any other company making it harder for them to find the books they want (reasonably priced) will push those readers somewhere. I want to put my books where the romance readers go--and Prime doesn't sound like their tipple at all.


I am a voracious romance reader and I had a Scribd sub until they yanked pretty much 99 percent of my wishlist out of the program. I then cancelled. Then I re-subscribed to KU as it was the time they implemented KU2 and so more full novels were coming in. I had cancelled before for nothing but shorts being in it. Browsing on amazon, KU or non KU is useless at this point with so much miscategorizing, so I rely on other readers for KU reads recs. There are groups on goodreads dedicated to that and threads on the amazon romance forum. I also use the newly designed goodreads on my kindle recommendations, which seem to be pretty spot on at this point. They are based on my ratings and other folks ratings. As I have no use for amazon "also bought". I need to know "also liked".

I shifted most of the Scribd reading over to libraries. I now have access to 3 libraries, 2 free local and state and another I pay for. Its half the price of Scribd, but I can read what I want and how much I want.

I use wishlists for KU exclusively to find my next read. So I rarely come across anything new in the program, unless another reader points me to it. I just read through my wishlists. I just cannot stand the mess that I have to wade through to find the good stuff in the Kindle store. But readers in romance have gotten together to sift through the stuff and tell each other what is in KU and what is good.

At this stage Prime Reads is not enticing to me. There are 25 books in my favorite romance genre in it, so not enough. But then its free with Prime, so there is that.


----------



## Hope

Chrissy said:


> I just checked to make sure I remembered correctly.
> 
> On August 18th I got an email from to be sure and update my Kindle e-reader with new software.
> 
> So, I believe the software "hooks" for any fixes could easily have been put in then.


I did too. My kindle is around 5 years old, I think. I didn't bother with it because I haven't charged it or turned it on in close to two years, though. I use my ipad to read with these days.


----------



## tommy gun

Was going to put my new series in and go for these page reads as I have always been wide.
Release is end December I may still do so (one series is not going to make or break me, hopefully).
Just hoping this resolves soon and I can finalize my decision.


----------



## JRTomlin

tomgermann said:


> Was going to put my new series in and go for these page reads as I have always been wide.
> Release is end December I may still do so (one series is not going to make or break me, hopefully).
> Just hoping this resolves soon and I can finalize my decision.


I am not disagreeing with people who have had problems, some of them serious. I want to point out though that others of us, and I think it is a majority, haven't had problems. I have just had two months of very high page reads.

That is something to keep in mind while making a decision.


----------



## J.R. Tate

I contacted Amazon yesterday morning around 10:30 AM Central time and I have yet to get a response. So much for their 24 hour quote on getting back to you. But I have to hope that they are completely bogged down with lots of people messaging them about this issue so that way they'll have to eventually make a big announcement and work on this problem.

We can speculate all day about this and it's apparent that Amazon is giving out many different excuses to everyone - preventing scammers, page-flip, etc... I hope we get an official answer to what is happening and an answer on how they are going to fix it. I know it'd ease a lot of minds if so, mine included. I don't want to pull out of KU - the majority of my income came from page reads... but if I have to, I'll pull all of my books out and expand in other markets. If they don't properly report page reads, I won't have anything to lose. 

It's like clocking in for an 8 hour shift and only getting paid for the first 30 minutes. That doesn't sit well with me.


----------



## Going Incognito

JRTomlin said:


> I am not disagreeing with people who have had problems, some of them serious. I want to point out though that others of us, and I think it is a majority, haven't had problems. I have just had two months of very high page reads.
> 
> That is something to keep in mind while making a decision.


Question that I can't remember if I've seen yet. You are still copacetic. So is Amanda. Neither of you write romance, correct? 
Is romance getting hit harder? How's Rosalind doing? If she's ok, is erotic romance getting hit even harder? It's bundles galore in erotic romance. The readers are voracious. Do erotic romance readers behave like scammers? Skimming over all that boring plot, jumping to the good bits, etc. Picking their fav authors/scenes to read out of a huge bundle? Are romance authors seeing the 60%-90% hits to income while non romance authors are seeing the 0%-30% hits?


----------



## JRTomlin

I haven't figured out exactly who is getting hit. I am certainly watching my sales and page reads very closely for anything that looks off. So far I am one of the lucky ones. 

Obviously I don't do romance. Is there something about romances that would cause them to have more problems? I can't imagine what it would be, but I suppose picking favorite scenes could be part of it with recent changes. Maybe it's just that there are more of them so more of them are having this problem. I haven't seen Rosalind say she was having problems and I suspect she would if it were the case, but you'd have to ask her to be sure. 

I really feel for the people who have gone through this, but can't say I'm sorry not to have been one of them.


----------



## David VanDyke

Just today I am seeing a sudden and normal-looking rise in the 2 box sets that seemed the most anomalous. Instead of sitting at fewer than 100 all day, every hour or two it's adding a couple hundred page reads.

I did put in a note to KU readers requesting they turn off page flip mode and uploaded it two days ago.

So, the apparent return toward normalcy might be a result of some readers doing what I asked, or it might be early evidence of a general fix.

***added: I'm seeing a generalized rise in most of my books page reads. Many of them have exceeded yesterday's page count and it's only a bit after noon. These include books that do not have my request to turn off page flip.

***added: I have access to one of my co-author's accounts and I looked at his books and I see the same thing, an increase of perhaps 50% today so far.

How is everyone else doing?


----------



## Hope

I'm seeing improvement as well.  I have 100 more page reads today than I had yesterday all day long.  Sales today are 1 less than I had all day yesterday.  It's just after 12:30 pm here, so maybe a change is underway.  I hope so.  I know there are some that have really taken a hit on this thing.


----------



## Crystal_

Going Incognito said:


> Question that I can't remember if I've seen yet. You are still copacetic. So is Amanda. Neither of you write romance, correct?
> Is romance getting hit harder? How's Rosalind doing? If she's ok, is erotic romance getting hit even harder? It's bundles galore in erotic romance. The readers are voracious. Do erotic romance readers behave like scammers? Skimming over all that boring plot, jumping to the good bits, etc. Picking their fav authors/scenes to read out of a huge bundle? Are romance authors seeing the 60%-90% hits to income while non romance authors are seeing the 0%-30% hits?


Romance authors are the main offenders when it comes to bonus books. Though I have seen many reports of authors with no bonus books having issues. I'm 100% romance (new adult/contemporary/erom). My reads were down in Sept and seem to be bouncing back, but I'm also in Prime Reads and am seeing sellthrough from that.

So I can't say.



888888 said:


> Pretty sure this is the case. Romance publishers are being hit the hardest "by design". We are the biggest volume by far (its not even a competition) and readers are not only voracious but impatient.
> 
> I've noticed many reviews on my books where readers clearly state they "got impatient" and "skipped ahead" to the "good stuff".
> 
> So basically voracious romance readers read like this there's not much you can do, and as a result the pubs are getting screwed. Thanks Amazon!


See, I disagree. Amazon has been insisting that KU pays by page read, not by farthest page. If that's true, then KU is supposed to operate this way. Whether that's fair or not is another conversation, but it wouldn't bother me. I don't think my readers are skimming and I don't think all romance readers skim. It's a certain type of reader and a certain type of book (no judgement on either party), and it is probably more common in erotic romance for obvious reasons.


----------



## J.R. Tate

I am seeing a slight improvement on page reads today as a whole, but I also had a new release today. My other books are still lagging. Still no word from Amazon. Still hoping it is because they are completely bogged down from all of the messages in regard to this.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Then there are the romance readers who skip over the "good bits". Some because they don't like to read sex scenes and only read the book because it's a good romantic story. Others because they're bored with sex scenes.

I certainly skip to the end of mysteries quite often just because I get impatient and I may or may not go back and read the pages I skipped.

If Amazon just pays for pages actually read, they are taking into account the many types of readers out there. And if there's one thing Amazon knows, it's their readers.


----------



## RuthNestvold

Amanda M. Lee said:


> 1. Amazon has finally plugged the furthest page read vs. actual pages read problem. A lot of people were getting inflated numbers that way. I think the people feeling the switch the most will be those who have those huge big box sets where people download them and only read one story. Before, a lot of people were getting credit for a read of the entire thing when maybe only one thing was being read. I don't think that's the case now, though. People have been doing some testing in other groups and that seems to be confirmed as far as most people can tell. I also think those who don't get a lot of pages read to begin with will feel the pinch because it's simply more noticeable to them.
> 2. Amazon further bore down into the KENP code. They're trying to eradicate anything that artificially inflates pages. I'm not saying everyone is purposely doing it (although the sheer number of people asking how to inflate their KENP would indicate some people are trying to do it). Amazon will keep tweaking until there's no way to do it, but it's an ongoing process.
> 3. Amazon recently changed the way All-Star bonuses are computed. It used to be that if you had John Smith as author on three books, John Smith and Jane Doe as authors on two books, and John Smith and Frank Jones as authors on two books that John Smith would get credit toward an All-Star bonus for each configuration. Now everything is broken out. John Smith alone tallies page reads for a bonus, John Smith and Jane Doe tally reads for a bonus together, and John Smith and Frank Jones tally page reads together. They don't overlap. Why is that significant? I think Amazon is clearly trying to cut down on the graft and the way people were manipulating to double-dip. I don't think it's important in and of itself as much as I think it's part of the bigger picture. Amazon seems dedicated to working against the scam issues right now. That means they often over correct.
> 4. Page Flip seems to be an issue. I personally don't have Page Flip as an option on my Kindle so I can't comment but enough people have tested it to make me think it probably is. I'm sure Amazon is working on it but I'm sure that it's frustrating for people and I totally understand that they're angry. I would be angry, too.


For me personally, box sets, page inflation, and all-stars can't have anything to do with it. I'm not in any box sets with anyone else, least of all any all stars. The only "page inflation" in my epic and historical fantasies are glossaries and lists of characters and an author's note with historical background -- all of which I think is legit, and even if it weren't it would not account for a 98% drop in pages read on my Big Fat Fantasies, both of which are plus / minus 900 KENP (and dropping).

As weird as it might seem, the only thing that makes any sense to me with Yseult and Shadow of Stone is the page-flip issue.

No improvement for me in pages read today.


----------



## JRTomlin

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Then there are the romance readers who skip over the "good bits". Some because they don't like to read sex scenes and only read the book because it's a good romantic story. Others because they're bored with sex scenes.
> 
> I certainly skip to the end of mysteries quite often just because I get impatient and I may or may not go back and read the pages I skipped.
> 
> If Amazon just pays for pages actually read, they are taking into account the many types of readers out there. And if there's one thing Amazon knows, it's their readers.


True on all counts, Gertie. I am one of those 'bored with sex scene' readers and skip over about 95% of sex scenes in romances. They rarely have anything to do with the plot and I simply don't read for sex. Do those pages I skip over count as read since I page through them? An interesting question. I assume so but do you have to spend time ON the page for it to count as read? Not sure.

I also read a lot of mysteries, but I rarely skip to the end, so... I can't speculate on how common that is. Probably common because you're not the first I've seen say that. I will say that the page reads on my two mysteries have been pretty high, so if people are doing that, it doesn't seem to be a problem.


----------



## PhoenixS

JRTomlin said:


> I am not disagreeing with people who have had problems, some of them serious. I want to point out though that others of us, and I think it is a majority, haven't had problems. I have just had two months of very high page reads.
> 
> That is something to keep in mind while making a decision.


Ah, but you had a BookBub Feature in September, didn't you? Here's where it becomes a more *is it or isn't it* question.

We had a good August and an even better September. I complained in private groups pretty immediately that our August promo tail was very poor in comparison to other months, but chalked it up to summer and the possibility that our historical romances were getting a bit fatigued, since we'd just come off a terrific June with a contemporary romance series. Looking at September in isolation, it's our second-highest revenue-generating month in the last year. I could look at that, see it's higher than August, and conclude we weren't affected.

BUT when I compare it to a pretty much identical promo run in June for the same series, the September promo performed better overall. Yet our page reads are down by 1/3 of what historical behavior and comparative behavior would suggest they should be. No, we can't predict what any individual reader will do, but we CAN look at that historical behavior and predict -- all else being equal -- what readers in the aggregate will do.

Looking at my personal account, the lack of a promo tail is much clearer. Down about 60-70% from my August promo, with a sharp plunge on Sep 4 from which it never really recovered even with another promo mid-September with over 6K books given away.


----------



## JRTomlin

PhoenixS said:


> Ah, but you had a BookBub Feature in September, didn't you? Here's where it becomes a more *is it or isn't it* question.
> 
> We had a good August and an even better September. I complained in private groups pretty immediately that our August promo tail was very poor in comparison to other months, but chalked it up to summer and the possibility that our historical romances were getting a bit fatigued, since we'd just come off a terrific June with a contemporary romance series. Looking at September in isolation, it's our second-highest revenue-generating month in the last year. I could look at that, see it's higher than August, and conclude we weren't affected.
> 
> BUT when I compare it to a pretty much identical promo run in June for the same series, the September promo performed better overall. Yet our page reads are down by 1/3 of what historical behavior and comparative behavior would suggest they should be. No, we can't predict what any individual reader will do, but we CAN look at that historical behavior and predict -- all else being equal -- what readers in the aggregate will do.
> 
> Looking at my personal account, the lack of a promo tail is much clearer. Down about 60-70% from my August promo, with a sharp plunge on Sep 4 from which it never really recovered even with another promo mid-September with over 6K books given away.


But unlike you, I have had an extremely good promo tail that is only now tapering off.

And if my page reads were being severely under-reported, they wouldn't have gone sky high during the promo. I am simply saying that judging historically, I can detect no drop in page reads with the novel I promoted, with the ones I didn't, or during the promo tail. Quite the contrary, my page reads are by far the highest they've ever been.

That doesn't invalidate your experience or that of others, obviously, but it does say that isn't a universal problem.

ETA: Believe me, Phoenix, I would notice if my page reads were down.


----------



## katrina46

My problem believing that this is Amazon fixing something that would drastically change some people's income is that they sent a mass email about KU2 before it happened. They sent an email about the page reads cap. They didn't just make changes and let us wonder what the hell was going on. I doubt they'd purposely do it this way for fear of a mass panic and unchecking of Select renewal boxes. They're surely smarter than that. I still think they don't know what the hell is going on themselves, or are afraid to say because it was an accident, a glitch, and all they could say is oops our bad.


----------



## MMacLeod

katrina46 said:


> My problem believing that this is Amazon fixing something that would drastically change some people's income is that they sent a mass email about KU2 before it happened. They sent an email about the page reads cap. They didn't just make changes and let us wonder what the hell was going on. I doubt they'd purposely do it this way for fear of a mass panic and unchecking of Select renewal boxes. They're surely smarter than that. I still think they don't know what the hell is going on themselves, or are afraid to say because it was an accident, a glitch, and all they could say is oops our bad.


I tend to agree. They've also told people via telephone that it would take about a week to fix. That was mentioned in this thread by someone who had been given the information directly from a customer service rep. It's only just approaching the one week mark, and that was an estimate. I think they made what was supposed to be a behind the scenes, routine change, it didn't work as intended, and it's taking time to diagnose and fix. The last thing any business wants to do is admit to a problem before they know the scope of it or have a good idea of how to fix it.


----------



## David VanDyke

I'm getting anecdotal confirmation from other authors in my box set group that they are seeing a significant rise today.


----------



## Colin

> Quote from: brkingsolver on Today at 03:00:54 AM
> Next, I plan to draw a pentacle and dance nude under the full moon while beseeching the Great God Bezos to bring rain to my crops.
> 
> LOL. Sounds like a plan!


Until someone can come up with a better option, I'll take dancing lessons, wait for the next full moon, and go for it!


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## PhoenixS

JRTomlin said:


> But unlike you, I have had an extremely good promo tail that is only now tapering off.
> 
> And if my page reads were being severely under-reported, they wouldn't have gone sky high during the promo. I am simply saying that judging historically, I can detect no drop in page reads with the novel I promoted, with the ones I didn't, or during the promo tail. Quite the contrary, my page reads are by far the highest they've ever been.
> 
> That doesn't invalidate your experience or that of others, obviously, but it does say that isn't a universal problem.
> 
> ETA: Believe me, Phoenix, I would notice if my page reads were down.


I won't try to argue your particular situation, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying in regard to our promo. The SMP author with a BB ad had a very good tail in September too. Rankwise, it looks like a better tail than your promo had. Her BB was Sept 16 (almost a week before yours) and Books 1-3 (The Louisiana Knights series, just to be fair with disclosure) are still around #6K-#7K in rank. We had over 1.6M page reads, spiking up from about our 1-1.2M average. If I didn't have June to compare with, I'm not sure I would have been clued to an issue either. I was expecting 2M reads.

What I'm trying to point out is that while we had a VERY GOOD run in September with higher-than-average page reads, I still believe our account was affected and that our numbers should have been about 33% higher.


----------



## JVRudnick

Sorry to have to ask...but is this Page-Flip thingy something that I can turn OFF for all my books somehow? & if so where do I do that?


----------



## J.R. Tate

JVRudnick said:


> Sorry to have to ask...but is this Page-Flip thingy something that I can turn OFF for all my books somehow? & if so where do I do that?


Unfortunately, no. It's a feature on the actual kindle/ipad/iphone/etc. The reader would be the one to have to do this.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

J.R. Tate said:


> Unfortunately, no. It's a feature on the actual kindle/ipad/iphone/etc. The reader would be the one to have to do this.


Which I intend doing. It messes up my audio sync.


----------



## JRTomlin

PhoenixS said:


> I won't try to argue your particular situation, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying in regard to our promo. The SMP author with a BB ad had a very good tail in September too. Rankwise, it looks like a better tail than your promo had. Her BB was Sept 16 (almost a week before yours) and Books 1-3 (The Louisiana Knights series, just to be fair with disclosure) are still around #6K-#7K in rank. We had over 1.6M page reads, spiking up from about our 1-1.2M average. If I didn't have June to compare with, I'm not sure I would have been clued to an issue either. I was expecting 2M reads.
> 
> What I'm trying to point out is that while we had a VERY GOOD run in September with higher-than-average page reads, I still believe our account was affected and that our numbers should have been about 33% higher.


They aren't the same genre and didn't have the same starting point. For that particular novel, it was extremely good, the best it has ever had and it's not my first BB promo for it so I *do* have history to judge by.

Let me put it this way, Phoenix, I think if it were universal there would be a lot more than 18 pages in this thread after several weeks. That doesn't mean it isn't a serious problem that could start affecting me tomorrow (or today for that matter).

You just haven't convinced me that the problem is on all the KU novels out there. 

ETA: However, I am hoping a fix is in or in the works. Then it won't matter much which of us it right.


----------



## Indiecognito

To add my two cents, my reads today are 3 times what they were on October 1st. They've improved steadily over the last several days, sitting at about twice what they'd been before that. 

I would say that my September was at least 1/3 lower than it should have been in terms of page reads.


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## J.R. Tate

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Which I intend doing. It messes up my audio sync.


My Kindle is so old that it doesn't even have page-flip (first version of the Kindle Touch) and if it did, I'd turn it off too... just for all the problems it seems to be causing everyone and it doesn't seem like a feature I'd like anyway.


----------



## RuthNestvold

Indiecognito said:


> To add my two cents, my reads today are 3 times what they were on October 1st. They've improved steadily over the last several days, sitting at about twice what they'd been before that.


Obviously, Amazon has decided to pick on me to see if they can make me commit suicide.

They won't win! I will run screaming to Kobo and B&N! Naked in the snow, uphill all the way! Uphill both ways! Argh! I'm more of a Stubborn Old B*tch than they know!

But they still haven't set my books free, even though I asked days ago. :/


----------



## Atunah

One can't really turn off page flip on the kindles. Its like any other feature, you either use it or you don't. Its there like changing fonts, or using the go-to menu, or anything else. Now I don't read on my tablets much, fire and Nexus and android phone. But I have sat at the doc office and it was there. But only because I chose it. By tapping, tap again and its back to normal reading page. I do think its easier to activate it on a tablet than it is on a kindle. Since you have to swipe up from the bottom to get to it. 

I am still totally baffled at anyone reading like that though. All the extra stuff around the text would give it away that it is not the regular reading mode. But then I like my ebooks to look as close to books as I can. Extra words and icons and such would drive me insane. 
So far I haven't seen any other reader use page flip to read an actual book. Since it was talked about here, I went everywhere I can go where readers hang out and I haven't seen even one mention of it yet. Most don't even know what the heck page flip is. 
But hey, wouldn't be the first time I remain baffled at something.


----------



## J.R. Tate

Atunah said:


> One can't really turn off page flip on the kindles. Its like any other feature, you either use it or you don't. Its there like changing fonts, or using the go-to menu, or anything else. Now I don't read on my tablets much, fire and Nexus and android phone. But I have sat at the doc office and it was there. But only because I chose it. By tapping, tap again and its back to normal reading page. I do think its easier to activate it on a tablet than it is on a kindle. Since you have to swipe up from the bottom to get to it.
> 
> I am still totally baffled at anyone reading like that though. All the extra stuff around the text would give it away that it is not the regular reading mode. But then I like my ebooks to look as close to books as I can. Extra words and icons and such would drive me insane.
> So far I haven't seen any other reader use page flip to read an actual book. Since it was talked about here, I went everywhere I can go where readers hang out and I haven't seen even one mention of it yet. Most don't even know what the heck page flip is.
> But hey, wouldn't be the first time I remain baffled at something.


My kindle is so old that I don't even think it'll have the option to do the page-flip. Seems real easy to turn off and back on... hopefully it's an obvious enough change that the reader will realize when they go into page-flip mode so they can change it back. Not a feature I'd care to have, I don't think.


----------



## Atunah

J.R. Tate said:


> My kindle is so old that I don't even think it'll have the option to do the page-flip. Seems real easy to turn off and back on... hopefully it's an obvious enough change that the reader will realize when they go into page-flip mode so they can change it back. Not a feature I'd care to have, I don't think.


If you have anything older than the 2nd Gen Paperwhite, it won't have it. My basic with buttons, K3 don't have it. My husbands 1st gen PW doesn't have it. 
For me it doesn't really add anything I didn't already have before. I already had the simple page flip for a long time. Now they added a page with 9 images. Try making any text out on a 6 inch screen divided into 9 sections lol. I have used the regular page flip and its nice to see all the pages/locations one can rotate through. I use it mostly to go back to a chapter head to see what year it was. Math, not my thing.

Since regular page flip has been part of the software for quite some time, I wonder what changed with the added features to page flip. Course again, I don't read on tablets so I can't say what has or hasn't been there. I just open book, read on those for short bursts.

And yes, its pretty obvious one is not in regular reading mode. Its like a screen within a screen. Or in the kindles case, it can be 9 screen in one.


----------



## Atunah

For those that don't know what it looks like, page flip that is. Here are 2 images from a kindle. One with full page page flip and one with 9 images page flip. Only the 9 images one is new, the other one has been with us for quite some time. I am trying to get a pic from my Nexus to show the app. But its updating as I haven't used it in a while. I'll add the image.

















And here from Android tablet, kindle app


----------



## J.R. Tate

Thanks for the info! Yeah, my Kindle is too old to have this but I'm not brokenhearted about that.


----------



## horrordude1973

I tink I've only ever used page flip when going through my own books when writing a sequel to find what I said about who lol.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

I sometimes use the original page flip (didn't know that's what it was) to check on total locations and what location I'm at when I'm reading. I wish I could turn that 9-screen page flip off, although when you read in landscape, it's only three screens.


----------



## Atunah

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I sometimes use the original page flip (didn't know that's what it was) to check on total locations and what location I'm at when I'm reading. I wish I could turn that 9-screen page flip off, although when you read in landscape, it's only three screens.


You don't need to turn it off, just don't click the logo thing on the bottom. Its an extra step you have to do to get to it.


----------



## Nothing To See

JRTomlin said:


> Let me put it this way, Phoenix, I think if it were universal there would be a lot more than 18 pages in this thread after several weeks.


I'm positive that there's a lot more hate and discontent about this issue currently than is reflected on this forum. I'm in contact with a number of other authors who saw decreases in pages read for September similar to what Phoenix mentioned (my personal estimate is somewhere around 25-30%). Many of us are talking privately on Facebook or other venues, but I haven't spoken with anyone who released in September who didn't see a hit in their pages read compared to prior releases. A lot of authors are withholding releasing currently because we're not convinced the problem is fixed.

I'm by no means claiming that the issue is universal, but I think it's much broader than is reflected on this forum. Many of us are discussing these issues in private settings and reevaluating whether or not to remain in KU.

I've seen some shrugging and "well, most readers don't use Page Flip" when it comes to the fact that our testing shows that pages read aren't being reported unless the reader full-screens page flip at the end. Regardless of the actual number of pages read being lost (which we have no way of knowing because they go unrecorded), *pages read aren't being recorded and paid*. That's a big deal. It should be a big deal. The number of actual pages being unrecorded is irrelevant - _we aren't being paid for a percentage of pages read that we should be, and we have no idea how many that is._ We're taking Amazon at their word when they tell us that Page Flip has a negligible impact on our bottom line - just like we're taking them at their word when they tell us to rest assured that our projections based on our prior years of sales/borrow data are collectively incorrect and that they're in fact paying us correctly.



Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I ran a test and books are still counted as full reads if you skip to the end via the TOC.
> 
> So far, nothing has been isolated that had any verifiable, testable impact on reads beyond pageflip.
> 
> However, several of the authors I'm on contact with are reporting that they're getting between 30 and 100 reads for every sale when 200 to 500 reads for every sale would be more normal depending on total book KENPC. Many authors are seeing a reduction in their total reads by as much as 90%.
> 
> There is simply no way reader behavior or fraudulent activity accounts for that.
> 
> All of the reports from authors for the last six weeks point to a massive, systemic bug that they don't have a handle on. There's no way 90% of the reads in the store were fraudulent up until September 5.
> 
> More importantly, the data for September will be released soon. If it turns out that the overall reads in the store remained stable or increased from August to September, it effectively proves that this is not a new normal or intentional and that there is a glitch that's randomly cutting off 90% of reads from legitimate authors.
> 
> As a result, they broke the system. Authors need to keep up pressure on them to get this fixed as soon as possible.


I agree with all of this. All testing I know of points to no correction having been made on the "furthest page read" vs individual page read issue. Test books show pages registered for skipping pages to the end, including for bonus books. An actual correction hasn't been made to the pages read issue.

If there's been an attempt to correct for fraud based on some kind of algorithmic determination of fraudulent-looking reader behavior, it's picking up way too many honest readers and authors in it and casting far too wide a net.


----------



## Loosecannon

FYI
Oh, I just looked at Amazon's page flip 'page' https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b?ie=UTF8&node=13632018011 and was surprised to see that they are showing that on an iPhone is looks like a very read-able way to go through a book. Others here too have reported that it is a fast/easy way to read (without being too small) on theKindle iPod app.

I think their interface folks better get thinking about a way to fix tracking if used that way as users always use things their way, not necessarily the way the designers thought they would use them.


----------



## katrina46

Nothing To See said:


> I'm positive that there's a lot more hate and discontent about this issue currently than is reflected on this forum. I'm a pretty regular top 10 KU author and I'm in contact with a number of other authors who saw decreases in pages read for September similar to what Phoenix mentioned (my personal estimate is somewhere around 25-30%). Many of us are talking privately on Facebook or other venues, but I haven't spoken with anyone who released in September who didn't see a hit in their pages read compared to prior releases. A lot of authors are withholding releasing currently because we're not convinced the problem is fixed.
> 
> I'm by no means claiming that the issue is universal, but I think it's much broader than is reflected on this forum. Many of us are discussing these issues in private settings and reevaluating whether or not to remain in KU.
> 
> I've seen some shrugging and "well, most readers don't use Page Flip" when it comes to the fact that our testing shows that pages read aren't being reported unless the reader full-screens page flip at the end. Regardless of the actual number of pages read being lost (which we have no way of knowing because they go unrecorded), *pages read aren't being recorded and paid*. That's a big deal. It should be a big deal. The number of actual pages being unrecorded is irrelevant - _we aren't being paid for a percentage of pages read that we should be, and we have no idea how many that is._ We're taking Amazon at their word when they tell us that Page Flip has a negligible impact on our bottom line - just like we're taking them at their word when they tell us to rest assured that our projections based on our prior years of sales/borrow data are collectively incorrect and that they're in fact paying us correctly.
> 
> I agree with all of this. All testing I know of points to no correction having been made on the "furthest page read" vs individual page read issue. Test books show pages registered for skipping pages to the end, including for bonus books. An actual correction hasn't been made to the pages read issue.
> 
> If there's been an attempt to correct for fraud based on some kind of algorithmic determination of fraudulent-looking reader behavior, it's picking up way too many honest readers and authors in it and casting far too wide a net.


This ain't the only forum in town as they say and I know a whole lot of writers having issues. They just don't post about them here.


----------



## AllyWho

JRTomlin said:


> Let me put it this way, Phoenix, I think if it were universal there would be a lot more than 18 pages in this thread after several weeks.


Despite what some people might think, k-boards isn't the only authors forum in town. In fact many business oriented indies don't frequent here because this board is public and members aren't vetted. There are numerous closed and private groups where this is being discussed and where authors are sharing numbers etc.


----------



## Virginia Wade

Yes, we are pulling our hair out on other forums. *sigh* 

Been lurking and silently commiserating.


----------



## BloodHound

Gotta agree with Mercia. The people likely taking a heavy beating, in my estimation, are the non-fiction writers who use extensive TOC’s, hyperlinking, and large Indexes that lead to a lot of jumping around. I get it, Amazon is saying tough luck that’s fraud and so do away with those things. Write like our fiction writers. It’s bad enough they weren’t supporting most non-fiction writers to begin with why take even more from them.


----------



## tresero

BloodHound said:


> Gotta agree with Mercia. The people likely taking a heavy beating, in my estimation, are the non-fiction writers who use extensive TOC's, hyperlinking, and large Indexes that lead to a lot of jumping around. I get it, Amazon is saying tough luck that's fraud and so do away with those things. Write like our fiction writers. It's bad enough they weren't supporting most non-fiction writers to begin with why take even more from them.


It's been proven multiple times that Amazon can't tell what pages were read. That isn't the problem. If you go to the end of the book, you get credited with all the pages. I don't see any way amazon can even check that. What are they going to do, put a timer on each page? Maybe they could tell if you skip, but... It's something else.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

888888 said:


> *Let's just hope Amazon discreetly owns up to their mess and the payout per read for Sept is at least .006(30% bump).*


I predict the page read payout will come to .0046 to .0048 and the total number of reads (as determined by dividing the fund amount by the page rate) will be shown to have increased from September to October, confirming that what people are seeing is a bug, which is why Amazon is telling people eight different things when they ask why it's happening and when it will be fixed.

If 30% of all page reads in the entire program were fraudulent, even by casting a very wide algorithmic net as Nothing To See suggests, Amazon wouldn't try something half-assed like this that ends up driving successful authors out, they'd formulate a plan and launch a new payout system.

Also, the page read system has been active for a year. They've been shutting down accounts for procedurally generated activity for months. They've known about the scamlets since at least December of last year.

Something is broken and authors need to keep contacting them constantly until they fix it and give us more details.

My personal theory is that everything they did to curb scams so far failed, August was particularly bad for it (based on bonus/reads info from authors I will not name) and this is the result of someone walking into a room full of engineers and screaming that if this isn't fixed by Monday, everyone is fired.


----------



## katrina46

Virginia Wade said:


> Yes, we are pulling our hair out on other forums. *sigh*
> 
> Been lurking and silently commiserating.


I know. I'm one of them.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I'm a top ten KU author. I won't state exact numbers for fear of being identified, but I've had more than 3 books in the Top 5, more than 5 books in the Top 10, more than 10 in the Top 20, and every novel I've ever published but one has been in the top 100, and the one that didn't make it peaked at 101.

Right now I'm sitting on two completely finished full length novels. I had planned to release two standalones and a trilogy in the next six months, in KU. Now I'm not sure I can release them in KU at all and I'm looking at wide promo strategies.

It really looks like they changed the way page reads are being counted and they won't tell us how. The best we get is "a change".

PageFlip is allowing people to read and Amazon isn't recording the reading activity. They may not be tracking pageflip activity at all, we don't know other than them telling us it's fine.

Legit authors are being hurt and we want to work within their guidelines. How can we do that if they won't tell us what they are?

I don't know how they expect us to do business as authors in this climate.

Today I got a quality notice and one of my books has been flagged for typos. (Eight typos out of a 80,000 word book, by the way).

For all I know, if I fix it, it'll kill the page reads on that title when it updates. I thought they wanted quality?

I'm not the only one who feels this way. I talk to a lot of other successful, regular Top 10 authors and they all feel the same way. You just have to look at the Top 100 now to see that none of us are publishing.

I can guarantee you the big authors are ALL talking about it. I did nothing else today but talk with people and try to track down a possible cause of this problem and figure out where we go from here.


----------



## KelliWolfe

tresero said:


> It's been proven multiple times that Amazon can't tell what pages were read. That isn't the problem. If you go to the end of the book, you get credited with all the pages. I don't see any way amazon can even check that. What are they going to do, put a timer on each page? Maybe they could tell if you skip, but... It's something else.


Timers won't work because of the vastly different amounts of content that can appear on a page. You can have a dense wall of non-fiction text that would take minutes to read and absorb, or you could have a couple of lines of brief dialog wrapping up a chapter that you could scan in well under a second before moving on to the next page, with a full range of everything in between.


----------



## SparkWrite

A rep from ECR (executive client relations) called me yesterday and we talked for about half an hour. I sent an email last week to KDP about how my page reads seemed "off" and sent screen shots of my release in September that had weird reported KENP, like 800 pages one day and then 8 pages the next, and then over 1000 two days later. I was surprised to get the call from ECR, and he said they're trying to gather as much info as they can about what's going on with authors' experiences with this KENP issue, and since I sent detailed "evidence" he wanted to talk to me.

I mentioned to him that many authors are reporting that pages read in page flip aren't being recorded as KENP read and he asked if anyone had tested this out. I said I'd read about some authors testing it out and then reporting only one page read. He said he's really interested in getting in contact with authors who have tested this out, especially anyone that could show some sort of data that only one page read is being registered. Anyhow, If anyone is willing and interested in sharing their experience with this rep at ECR let me know and I'll pass your contact info onto him. It could only be helpful to everyone if we can give KDP more insight into what we're experiencing.


----------



## Gone Girl

We miss you, Harvey Chute.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

SparkWrite said:


> A rep from ECR (executive client relations) called me yesterday and we talked for about half an hour. I sent an email last week to KDP about how my page reads seemed "off" and sent screen shots of my release in September that had weird reported KENP, like 800 pages one day and then 8 pages the next, and then over 1000 two days later. I was surprised to get the call from ECR, and he said they're trying to gather as much info as they can about what's going on with authors' experiences with this KENP issue, and since I sent detailed "evidence" he wanted to talk to me.
> 
> I mentioned to him that many authors are reporting that pages read in page flip aren't being recorded as KENP read and he asked if anyone had tested this out. I said I'd read about some authors testing it out and then reporting only one page read. He said he's really interested in getting in contact with authors who have tested this out, especially anyone that could show some sort of data that only one page read is being registered. Anyhow, If anyone is willing and interested in sharing their experience with this rep at ECR let me know and I'll pass your contact info onto him. It could only be helpful to everyone if we can give KDP more insight into what we're experiencing.


Wow. Everybody that's having the issue needs to get in touch.

Also, Amazon needs to open up some kind of direct line. Playing this game of telephone with them where they talk to one person and expect the info to disseminate (and tell different people different things) is ridiculous.


----------



## SparkWrite

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Wow. Everybody that's having the issue needs to get in touch.
> 
> Did they ask you to collect contact info and send to them? Can't we contact them directly?
> 
> Also, Amazon needs to open up some kind of direct line. Playing this game of telephone with them where they talk to one person and expect the info to disseminate (and tell different people different things) is ridiculous.


He asked me to forward email addresses to him of people who have evidence page flip isn't working. Sorry, but he asked that I not share his contact info. I want to stay in his "good books" as he said I can contact him anytime with questions. Please PM me if you have evidence of the page flip KENP issue and I'll try my best in connecting you with this rep as he genuinely sounded like he wants to hear as much info as he can about this.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Totally understandable, no problem.

I PM'd you my email address.


----------



## TheLass

Why would the rep need to go to authors to show evidence of Page Flip not working, doesn't he trust the technical team to show him what's happening?


----------



## phil1861

TheLass said:


> Why would the rep need to go to authors to show evidence of Page Flip not working, doesn't he trust the technical team to show him what's happening?


Trust, but verify.

In my working world, never take the complaint of a user at face value. Users lie, exaggerate, and generally cause their own problems somehow. 90% of email problems (I'm an Exchange admin and Active Directory Architect) are on the client, not the mailbox.

People on the back end of things, who aren't users of a system but only design and maintain it, don't know how a user actually uses that system. Half of these people probably do not even have a kindle themselves, don't read fiction, and don't buy ebooks.

If the user can demonstrate the problem with evidence and not just hearsay, then that is what I would want to see. I didn't provide enough evidence in my phone call or in my email about free runs tanking my ranking and about page reads to draw any attention. Since this is a common complaint, they just say its the algos and they have nothing to do with them. Watching a problem happen, of sorts, is what they need to see in order to take any of this seriously.


----------



## LeLana Croft

phil1861 said:


> Trust, but verify.
> 
> In my working world, never take the complaint of a user at face value. Users lie, exaggerate, and generally cause their own problems somehow. 90% of email problems (I'm an Exchange admin and Active Directory Architect) are on the client, not the mailbox.
> 
> People on the back end of things, who aren't users of a system but only design and maintain it, don't know how a user actually uses that system. Half of these people probably do not even have a kindle themselves, don't read fiction, and don't buy ebooks.


This is true on so many levels. Which is why they should have a select group of authors that they can go to to ask, and not just the top earners, but also some mid-listers.

But this isn't like this is something that is happening to NEW books. This is happening to ones that have been published a while and then things just stop.

What really irks me is the fact that all this time, Amazon has been telling us that they will pay us by page reads, that they can't track. So either they are lying to us or just guessing.

There really needs to be a push from authors to add the amount of borrows to the dashboard. Not just the page reads, but the borrows under KU, so we can see a truer performance. I know there are times when I've downloaded a book and haven't opened it for a month because I got busy.

That will also help us keep track of how the book is doing. If we see a lot of borrows, but not a lot of page reads, we can re-evaluate the book, which in turn creates a better customer experience.


----------



## Nothing To See

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> You just have to look at the Top 100 now to see that none of us are publishing.
> I can guarantee you the big authors are ALL talking about it. I did nothing else today but talk with people and try to track down a possible cause of this problem and figure out where we go from here.


All of this.

The problem for me isn't even the glitch. I can understand a glitch - I totally get it. If Amazon updated something and it caused an unexpected screw up with the reads that cost me reads, okay. I don't_ like_ a 30% cut in reads, but I can absorb a month that's a loss.

What irks me is Amazon's response to this issue. Reps giving a thousand different answers and copy/pasted email responses aren't the professional kind of responses I'd expect from executive customer service. The blanket response to the community forum that Page Flip isn't a problem is just incorrect.

People have tested Page Flip - a number of them have posted to this thread. It results in one page read if the person flips through the book and then exits without full-screening the page. Is it likely the reason for the massive decline in pages read? Probably not. *But, for me, it's the principle of the thing. We have a specific issue here with pages going unregistered, and Amazon's response is to say, 'Nope, not an issue.' 
*
It might not account for a_ significant_ portion of the problem, but the fact is, it's a problem and Amazon is flat-out telling us not to worry about it. Their pages read payment system requires trust that they're in fact registering reads and paying us accurately. I know that there's an issue resulting in reads just not being registered, but they're telling me it's no problem. So how in the world can I trust they're counting other reads correctly or paying me accurately?



TheLass said:


> Why would the rep need to go to authors to show evidence of Page Flip not working, doesn't he trust the technical team to show him what's happening?


*If any reps are reading, here's how to replicate this issue:*

1.) Upload a test book to KDP.
2.) Open the book in Page Flip.
3.) Read through the book in the page flip mode (not skimming, spending an appropriate amount of time on each page the way a reader would).
4.) At the end of the book, simply exit the app.

_Unless the reader taps back to normal view at the end of the read within the app itself, the pages read in page flip mode don't count._

Now, do I think this accounts for the gross decline in pages read in September (and October, from what I'm hearing from a few authors who've published in October)? No. It's much more likely there's another glitch still causing issues.

*But the fact remains that there are certainly readers using this method to read; there are pages going unregistered for which we're not being paid; and simply saying "well, we don't think the unregistered pages are a lot" isn't a good response.*

Someone on this thread already said it (forgive me for not being able to find the quote right now) - *it's the equivalent of clocking into work and only being paid a portion of your work time.*


----------



## Going Incognito

Case in point:










_size fixed . --Betsy_


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

LeLana Croft said:


> But this isn't like this is something that is happening to NEW books. This is happening to ones that have been published a while and then things just stop.


This isn't correct. I'm in contact with an author right now who published this weekend. His reads were off right out the gate, by 90% of his last release. He has a huge facebook following, incredibly robust mailing list, and voracious, active fanbase. I know from his numbers that he easily clears six figure reads on publication day just by sending out his book to his newsletter. He did everything exactly the same and got less than 15% of normal.

That to me indicates that there is some kind of system that's meant to remove fraudulent reads and it's picking up legit reader activity.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Nothing To See

http://authorearnings.com/report/october-2016/?src=tw

Huh. So we have data demonstrating a sudden drop in indie author earnings, as we have indie authors on here complaining about a sudden inexplicable drop in author earnings.


----------



## tresero

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> This isn't correct. I'm in contact with an author right now who published this weekend. His reads were off right out the gate, by 90% of his last release. He has a huge facebook following, incredibly robust mailing list, and voracious, active fanbase. I know from his numbers that he easily clears six figure reads on publication day just by sending out his book to his newsletter. He did everything exactly the same and got less than 15% of normal.
> 
> That to me indicates that there is some kind of system that's meant to remove fraudulent reads and it's picking up legit reader activity.


That's what I saw on my release last week. Down 90% from a normal release. Because of that, no visibility and the book tanked. I will not put out another book in KU until this is fixed. I should have been in the top 100 just from my list, I didn't even break 3000.


----------



## katrina46

Atlantisatheart said:


> LeLana, it's happened to all of my new books, so I'm not sure where you got that idea from.


I think she might have meant it's not happening ONLY to new books.


----------



## dragontucker

So I am guessing the KU issue is still not fixed? I have been waiting to release but am afraid. I don't wanna throw months of hard work down the drain releasing now.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

dragontucker said:


> So I am guessing the KU issue is still not fixed? I have been waiting to release but am afraid. I don't wanna throw months of hard work down the drain releasing now.


See:



tresero said:


> That's what I saw on my release last week. Down 90% from a normal release. Because of that, no visibility and the book tanked. I will not put out another book in KU until this is fixed. I should have been in the top 100 just from my list, I didn't even break 3000.


I have a finished novel and a second I'm putting the finishing touches on. I very much want to release, but I'm sitting on them. I'd advise anyone else to do the same.

When they release the monthly sales report, fund amount, and we have the numbers to work out the total reads for September, we will know more.

I'm not optimistic for any increase (indicating that there has been an across the board reduction in reads for everyone, thus each read is worth more). I still predict the page payout will be between .0046 and .0048 and the total number of reads (select fund/page read rate) will be higher in September than it was in August, indicating growth, not a decline.


----------



## dragontucker

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> See:
> 
> I have a finished novel and a second I'm putting the finishing touches on. I very much want to release, but I'm sitting on them. I'd advise anyone else to do the same.
> 
> When they release the monthly sales report, fund amount, and we have the numbers to work out the total reads for September, we will know more.
> 
> I'm not optimistic for any increase (indicating that there has been an across the board reduction in reads for everyone, thus each read is worth more). I still predict the page payout will be between .0046 and .0048 and the total number of reads (select fund/page read rate) will be higher in September than it was in August, indicating growth, not a decline.


Thanks  Sit on it for how long though? LOL. It could be months before they fix the issue. Or.....it may just be the "new" way amazon works for all we know.


----------



## LeLana Croft

katrina46 said:


> I think she might have meant it's not happening ONLY to new books.


UGH. I meant to JUST NEW books. I was trying to say that yes, it's happening to new books, but older books as well.

I need cookies I think.  Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Until it's fixed. They've admitted there's a problem but they've given us confusing info on how big it is or what it may be.

In their own official statements, they first said .02% (that's two tenths of one percent, or two thousands) and then it was 2%.

So first they said two out of every thousand reads weren't recorded, then they said it was two out of every hundred.

That's either six million or sixty million reads, respectively, and no one that I talk to has said they're missing 2%, more like 30% at least and as high as 90%. Who would even notice 2% in the first place?

It's clearly hitting some people more than others.

They may actually be giving us the right number- that's actually what I expect, because the rate isn't going to change significantly and higher reads will be reported from September to August.

So when you publish you run the risk of making no money from KU on your book.

Risk of it flopping or no one reading it is one thing, but the people I'm talking to are veterans who have been doing this for years, have large, steady newsletters, active fanbases, and promo that works time after time. 90% off the expected result is indicative of a severe problem here.


----------



## phil1861

To be honest, if you're delaying a release it's your own income that you're affecting; Select is an option but not a forced enrollment. I realize that systems and expectations and plans were around outcomes with Select, but waiting for them to fix this particular issue is only harming your own future earnings. 

We've no indication that I've seen that there's a general issue with books not in Select though from Phoenix's string there was some chatter about perma-free books and ranking, so personally I wouldn't delay; I just wouldn't enroll in Select right now. My august release of Death's Confessor was rough but not out of line with any other book I've released in slowly building but I got no help from KU. I do not regret launching it then though I probably wouldn't have enrolled it in Select had we seen this issue then.


----------



## Going Incognito

Nothing To See said:


> http://authorearnings.com/report/october-2016/?src=tw
> 
> Huh. So we have data demonstrating a sudden drop in indie author earnings, as we have indie authors on here complaining about a sudden inexplicable drop in author earnings.


Quoted for truth. Maybe now we'll see answers??


----------



## Not In Kansas Anymore

I'm an relatively successful author experiencing the same issues. My main concern is that this is not a glitch and that this will slowly become the new normal. Why? Because since the implementation of KU 2.0 transparency on pages read has been an issue. For me no huge changes in income was apparent so I went with the flow. A new normal there.

But this time...There has been a drastic change in income. my reader base increases but my revenue plummets? How do you complain? To whom do you complain? Especially when the company over it all says there's no problem, when clearly *THERE IS A HUGE PROBLEM*

If it was just me, I might think twice. But the fact is that every author that I am close to that has released a book for the month of September have all reported a significant drop in income. A drop so large that it can't be explained away by "oh it's just this time of year" etc.

It's a huge drop to the point that Amazon really needs a direct line, because so far it just feels like it's being swept under the rug and shrugged off.


----------



## PhoenixS

**********


----------



## 75845

Nothing To See said:


> http://authorearnings.com/report/october-2016/?src=tw
> 
> Huh. So we have data demonstrating a sudden drop in indie author earnings, as we have indie authors on here complaining about a sudden inexplicable drop in author earnings.


Those aren't real sales figures Author Earnings simply take a rank and apply the average number of sales that normally get that rank. In other words it was rendered next to useless by Amazon's decision to give a rank boost for each download on Kindle Unlimited. The sales figures given in the report is based on the presumption that every author gets 50% KU reads and 50% sales. Your can also ignore the opening graphs on trends since Feb 2014 as Author Earnings have drastically altered their methodology more than once and Amazon changed it for them with the borrow boost when KU launched.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

phil1861 said:


> To be honest, if you're delaying a release it's your own income that you're affecting; Select is an option but not a forced enrollment. I realize that systems and expectations and plans were around outcomes with Select, but waiting for them to fix this particular issue is only harming your own future earnings.


There's no mathematical logic to taking a book I worked for 2+ months on for 10+ hours a day 5 days a week while managing an FB presence and author platform and risking that I won't make enough money to make a profit against cover design and promo costs.

If you release a book now, it makes 10% of its potential, and they then fix the problem, you're wasting the most important period of a book's lifespan and burning its chance to reach its potential earnings.


----------



## chloegarner

PhoenixS said:


> With the caveat that I haven't read the report yet, AE usually infers sales and income from book rankings. If books are being credited for the borrows -- and there's a lot of ad hoc evidence to suggest that hasn't changed -- then there's no correlation between the page reads issue and the AE report about the earnings drop.
> 
> And since page reads are inferred (Data Guy uses a multiplier that, in the past, has been good for non-romance but fell short for romance borrows vs reads), that means if authors here are seeing an average of a 20-50% drop in page reads that *should* be credited, and if the page read payment doesn't go up substantially for Sept forward, then authors are earning even less than what AE's report is showing.
> 
> But again, the AE report's spiders would NOT be able able to see the anomalies we're seeing in real life.
> 
> If that doesn't seem in line with what the new report indicates after I have a chance to delve into it, I'll revise this comment, but this is how the past reports have been calculated.


I think you've got it right. What AE is capturing is the simultaneous drop in rank that a lot of the people here are noting. I have a low enough sell-through to be able to track when a reader who downloaded a copy of one of my books reads it. (Usually, I can tell when they finish it, because my page reads exactly matches my KENP count... but that's another complaint.) I had someone go through and read every page of a 4-book series over the course of about a week, in late August or early September, without a download on any of the last three. I don't think I had any outstanding downloads on any of those three. I think we're getting downloads without rankings boosts as well as pages read that aren't being reported, and that's where the AE report is capturing the behavior - lower rankings on books in KU than where they would have been, in previous quarters.

Rank speculation, but that's what I see.


----------



## Indiecognito

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> There's no mathematical logic to taking a book I worked for 2+ months on for 10+ hours a day 5 days a week while managing an FB presence and author platform and risking that I won't make enough money to make a profit against cover design and promo costs.
> 
> If you release a book now, it makes 10% of its potential, and they then fix the problem, you're wasting the most important period of a book's lifespan and burning its chance to reach its potential earnings.


Not to mention that if an author (eg yours truly) is holding onto, say, the third book in a series and the first two were released in KU, said author (me) risks seriously cheesing off their readers.


----------



## Nothing To See

PhoenixS said:


> With the caveat that I haven't read the report yet, AE usually infers sales and income from book rankings. If books are being credited for the borrows -- and there's a lot of ad hoc evidence to suggest that hasn't changed -- then there's no correlation between the page reads issue and the AE report about the earnings drop.
> 
> And since page reads are inferred (Data Guy uses a multiplier that, in the past, has been good for non-romance but fell short for romance borrows vs reads), that means if authors here are seeing an average of a 20-50% drop in page reads that *should* be credited, and if the page read payment doesn't go up substantially for Sept forward, then authors are earning even less than what AE's report is showing.
> 
> But again, the AE report's spiders would NOT be able able to see the anomalies we're seeing in real life.


Point taken.  If what you're saying above is accurate (authors are possibly earning even less than what AE's report is showing), that's even more disturbing.


----------



## AllyWho

emilycantore said:


> The page read issue is dramatically affecting rank however.


No it's not. Pages read has zero to do with rank. It's the borrow that triggers an increase in sales rank. Pages read only affects the amount of the royalty. I've noticed a few people in this thread getting confused about the difference between reads and borrows and how they impact rank.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

If there's a problem recording reads, how do we know there isn't one recording borrows, too?

We can't even begin to tell because Amazon doesn't tell us how many raw borrows we get.


----------



## Going Incognito

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> If there's a problem recording reads, how do we know there isn't one recording borrows, too?
> 
> We can't even begin to tell because Amazon doesn't tell us how many raw borrows we get.


Meh, who needs data? I mean, it's not like we're running a business here or anything.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Amazon confirmed to an author conference this year that borrows (when a reader clicks the download button, regardless of reading activity) impact sales rank.

I was in the room and heard it directly from them.

The sales ranking is relatively simple. They weight today's sales against yesterday's, assign every book a point value based on that, and rank them. It's also fairly predictable.

The search algorithm that customizes search results for every individual user is much more complex. Reading activity on a book may impact how likely it is that a book appears in your search results, which are personalized for you, the individual customer. It takes into account book metrics as well as your past browsing activity and even where people hover their mouses on the page.


----------



## J.R. Tate

SparkWrite said:


> A rep from ECR (executive client relations) called me yesterday and we talked for about half an hour. I sent an email last week to KDP about how my page reads seemed "off" and sent screen shots of my release in September that had weird reported KENP, like 800 pages one day and then 8 pages the next, and then over 1000 two days later. I was surprised to get the call from ECR, and he said they're trying to gather as much info as they can about what's going on with authors' experiences with this KENP issue, and since I sent detailed "evidence" he wanted to talk to me.
> 
> I mentioned to him that many authors are reporting that pages read in page flip aren't being recorded as KENP read and he asked if anyone had tested this out. I said I'd read about some authors testing it out and then reporting only one page read. He said he's really interested in getting in contact with authors who have tested this out, especially anyone that could show some sort of data that only one page read is being registered. Anyhow, If anyone is willing and interested in sharing their experience with this rep at ECR let me know and I'll pass your contact info onto him. It could only be helpful to everyone if we can give KDP more insight into what we're experiencing.


I sent you a PM with my email address.

Today my page reads are slightly up again but I had a new release yesterday... call me crazy for going ahead and doing it but I had it as a pre-order before all of this hit the fan. I do have a couple of books only registering one page read each today so I'm pretty suspicious that this is not getting fixed. Amazon finally responded to my email today that I sent on Sunday with the generic response of - we are forwarding this to our business office and will research it further. Blah blah.

I really hope we get some answers soon!


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Email back and politely request a phone call.


----------



## PhoenixS

**********


----------



## ToniD

PhoenixS said:


> But rage reads vs borrows vs ranks -- pretty easy to see the correlations there. Without the need for a PhD.


Ha ha, love it! A good deal of rage reads going on around this issue 

Seriously, thanks Phoenix as always for the continuing analysis.


----------



## 75845

The Google Play closure is easily worked around by going via the likes of XinXii. The reason Google Play is not available at Smashwords and D2D is that those aggregators like to have roughly the same payout percentage for each retailer and Google Play pays much less. This is no problem for XinXii as they have different rates for each retailer. Be warned though that if you struggle with Amazon's customer service you will not enjoy XinXii unless they have massively improved in recent years (e.g., more than a month to reply to an email).


----------



## PhoenixS

**********


----------



## AllyWho

emilycantore said:


> No, people *believe* pages read has zero to do with rank. We have no confirmation this is the case.


Yes we do. It's been tested over and over. Reads do NOT impact sales rank - the borrow does.

I see people in this thread getting stressed because they have reads and their rank isn't going up. And it isn't going to because reads doesn't impact sales rank. You're worrying about the wrong metric. But hey *shrug* believe whatever you want, despite the pile of evidence and test results.


----------



## KaraKing

David VanDyke said:


> Bottom line, this is a wake-up call. I still believe going Select was the right move at the time -- it put at least $60K extra in my pocket -- but this illustrates how the cheese can move and I have to move with it, and how it's safer, if not actually more profitable, to stay wide.


Wise words. The cheese has indeed moved.


----------



## Chrissy

Mercia McMahon said:


> *The Google Play closure is easily worked around by going via the likes of XinXii.* The reason Google Play is not available at Smashwords and D2D is that those aggregators like to have roughly the same payout percentage for each retailer and Google Play pays much less. This is no problem for XinXii as they have different rates for each retailer. Be warned though that if you struggle with Amazon's customer service you will not enjoy XinXii unless they have massively improved in recent years (e.g., more than a month to reply to an email).


You can also get your books in Google Play using StreetLib and PublishDrive.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Page reads don't affect rank.

Here's an explanation of how the sales rank algo works: http://selfpublishingadvice.org/amazon-sales-rank-taming-the-algorithm/

This is a solid article on how the search engine/product display algo works: http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/2016/04/mythbusting-the-amazon-algorithm-reviews-and-ranking-for-authors/

Seriously though, this isn't relevant right now. What does it matter what rank is like or what they did to the algo if you get a high charting book and you don't get paid?

A top selling author showed me his graph this afternoon. He's in the Top 100 right now. He's getting 500+ sales per day and less than 60k reads per day. That's about 120 pages per sale. In the past, it would be reasonable to expect five times that number.

The reads line on the graph (the blue line) typically follows a trend of the red line (sales) which is to say that it follows the same general shape but without the intense daily variations. His blue line is cruising along steadily and refusing to rise about 70,000 reads per day no matter what increase in sales he sees.

All of those sales are from a voracious and dedicated fan community that he's built. Those expectations are based on past experience- like me, he's been self publishing for four years and has lots of releases under his belt, in the old system, in KU 1, and in KU 2.

It makes no sense, looks horribly broken, and doesn't pay. If this is the new reality of KU I just can't publish in it and I wouldn't advise anyone to do so, either.


----------



## Anarchist

emilycantore said:


> It's simplistic to believe page reads don't affect rank or other factors just because experimentation with super low rank books doesn't conclusively show it. Amazon aren't hiring all those PHDs just so they can write a simple algo.


You made a bold assertion without evidence.

You got called out on it by multiple members, one of whom has a lot of data at her fingertips and an unparalleled grasp of their meaning.

Now you're saying you're just speculating.

This is the epitome of a losing battle. lol


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## ......~......

Atlantisatheart said:


> That's their lie and they are sticking to it. Time to go wide.


Either that or format with Vellum. None of the Vellum formatted books I've seen have Page Flop (oops, that was an honest mistake but I'm keeping it ) enabled.


----------



## Crystal_

Atlantisatheart said:


> Posted By:	kdpadmin
> Created in:	System: Global Announcement
> Posted:	Oct 12, 2016 4:07 PM
> Page flip is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes.
> 
> That's their lie and they are sticking to it. Time to go wide.


I know authors who are having problems who don't have PageFlip enabled. PageFlip may be a problem, but I don't think it's the only problem.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Atlantisatheart said:


> Posted By:	kdpadmin
> Created in:	System: Global Announcement
> Posted:	Oct 12, 2016 4:07 PM
> Page flip is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes.


If it's not counting pages by design, how do they know how much it's being used and how many pages are being read with it?

That makes absolutely zero sense.

People are clearly using it to read, even if it's not the main issue.

If something else is causing this, it would allay a lot of our fears and we'd shut up about page flip if they just told us that yes, there is a problem, and tell us what it is.



NeedWant said:


> Either that or format with Vellum. None of the Vellum formatted books I've seen have Page Flop (oops, that was an honest mistake but I'm keeping it ) enabled.


I formatted the book I used to test PageFlip with Vellum.

It doesn't matter. We have zero control over whether it's enabled or not.



Crystal_ said:


> I know authors who are having problems who don't have PageFlip enabled. PageFlip may be a problem, but I don't think it's the only problem.


Same.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Nothing To See

Atlantisatheart said:


> Posted By:	kdpadmin
> Created in:	System: Global Announcement
> Posted:	Oct 12, 2016 4:07 PM
> Page flip is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes.
> 
> That's their lie and they are sticking to it. Time to go wide.


1.) Great. Page Flip wasn't designed to be used for reading, so using it that way doesn't count toward pages read. Nevertheless, our readers are still reporting using it that way.

2.) It's "not being used for reading in any material way". How is Amazon measuring this? We know pages read on page flip are simply not recorded. So how do they know it's not being used in any material way?

Again, I don't think Page Flip is the sole cause of decreased page reads, by any means. But...



Atlantisatheart said:


> I agree it's not the only problem, but if they can't acknowledge the pageflip problem, why are they going to acknowledge their other problems?


----------



## ......~......

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I formatted the book I used to test PageFlip with Vellum.
> 
> It doesn't matter. We have zero control over whether it's enabled or not.


I wonder how you managed that. What file format did you upload to KDP? I have yet to see a Vellum book with that option enabled. None of mine have it.


----------



## Nope

.


----------



## AllyWho

NeedWant said:


> I have yet to see a Vellum book with that option enabled. None of mine have it.


Ditto. I format with Vellum and none of my titles have page flip enabled.


----------



## 75845

Page Flip is copied from Google Play. I've using the Google Play version to read books on a small smart phone. The type is perfectly clear and its easier to move to the next page. 

How would a techie know that someone using page flip was using it to read or just to find something later in the book?


----------



## NotAPenguin

Kindle is claiming readers do not read using page flip. Then why do books open in page flip mode in so many devices? It's automatic and READERS ARE USING IT!


----------



## LeLana Croft

Atlantisatheart said:


> Page flip is a navigational tool and using it for navigation *does not count toward pages read by design*. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes.
> 
> That's their lie and they are sticking to it. Time to go wide.


The part that's bolded actually confirms exactly everything that everyone's been saying. This was a full on admittance.


----------



## LeLana Croft

AliceW said:


> Ditto. I format with Vellum and none of my titles have page flip enabled.


I also use Vellum and mine DO have the pageflip enabled.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I used Vellum to generate a .mobi file.

I have other Vellum books that don't have it including another test I ran this week. I didn't do anything differently.



LeLana Croft said:


> The part that's bolded actually confirms exactly everything that everyone's been saying. This was a full on admittance.


They gave readers a way to read our books without the page reads being recorded and without us being paid. Now they say no one is using it, but they say they also don't measure when it's being used? They say it doesn't record page reads, and we've confirmed that with testing. So how can they tell if it's being used to read books at all?

I, personally, have used it. It actually looks nice on my iPhone and iPad. Readers are reporting to us that they use it. For romance readers, it's probably very appealing- it allows them to keep reading very fast, which they tend to do, without the annoying page turn animations and delay.

Even if that's not the problem, (who knows at this point?) they didn't even tell us about this until now and they decided to address this and only this and not the general panic that's starting in the author community over massively reduced reads for no apparent reason while Amazon tells some people there's been a change and other people nothing or they're forwarding it to the business/technical/some other team and then never replying again.


----------



## Crystal_

I agree that Amazon is handling this poorly. I don't fault anyone for going wide. Personally, I'm trying to view this as a business decision. My stress levels are making it difficult. At this point, staying in KU is clearly not good for my mental health. But I can't tell if it's good for my business.

I really want to stay in KU. My series starter just started its Prime Reads run and I have no desire to try to roll my main moneymaking out of KU, one select period at a time. But I'm still on the fence about where my Nov 1 release is going.

I want to put it in KU.

I may put it in KU even if all this stuff is going on, and hope that the reports of problems are mostly anomalies, but I don't feel good about that option.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

emilycantore said:


> Wow... I'm stunned. I keep thinking this can't get any worse and then it does. Firstly page flip doesn't affect pages read... and now they admit it does and those pages are deliberately not counted.
> 
> Just this thread alone contains people using page flip to read entire books!
> 
> Time to ask Amazon en masse if any of our titles have recorded just 1 single page being read from a customer.
> 
> They'd also have customers who went from reading high page numbers per month to seriously dropping off when they started using page flip. I'm sure the romance community could give some survey data on how many use page flip to gulp down books.


Not really, they weasel-worded.

This is what they said the first time.

_Thanks for the recent questions from some authors about how Page Flip is being used by customers and its possible impact to pages read. Page Flip is designed to make it easy to explore and navigate in books while automatically saving your place, and that is how customers are using it. We checked for effects on pages read before launching Page Flip, and investigated it again to re-confirm that there is no impact. We do not see any material reading volume happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely. _

They said the checked the impact of page flip, and the pages that weren't recorded because of it are small in number because they say so.

All they did was repeat that, but this time admit that yes, PageFlip doesn't record reads and they designed it that way.

I'm aghast. They designed a feature of the Kindle to show readers the text of my book without recording that they saw it and without paying me for that reading in KU.



Crystal_ said:


> I agree that Amazon is handling this poorly. I don't fault anyone for going wide. Personally, I'm trying to view this as a business decision. My stress levels are making it difficult. At this point, staying in KU is clearly not good for my mental health. But I can't tell if it's good for my business.
> 
> I really want to stay in KU. My series starter just started its Prime Reads run and I have no desire to try to roll my main moneymaking out of KU, one select period at a time. But I'm still on the fence about where my Nov 1 release is going.
> 
> I want to put it in KU.
> 
> I may put it in KU even if all this stuff is going on, and hope that the reports of problems are mostly anomalies, but I don't feel good about that option.


When I first heard this was going on, I thought the same thing- it must be an intermittent issue. However, I talk to dozens of authors regularly on various channels, forums, and through personal contact and everyone who has published something since the first week in September is seeing this issue to one degree or an other. I have yet to see someone show me reliable data that shows that the problem isn't affecting them.

I want to release and release in KU. It's been great for me and great for readers but if the money isn't there it's no longer justified.


----------



## Going Incognito

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> They designed a feature of the Kindle to show readers the text of my book without recording that they saw it and without paying me for that reading in KU.


This.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I'm going to obscure these numbers slightly to protect the person's identity.

Another just informed me that they have books with the following sales/reads today:

10/9500
_150/1,100_
5/3500
5/3000

An old book is bringing in ten times more reads than an new book with ten times the sales.

There is no way that is not broken.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Nothing To See

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I'm aghast. They designed a feature of the Kindle to show readers the text of my book without recording that they saw it and without paying me for that reading in KU.


We should all be irate about this. We're not being paid for page reads by design.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## Indiecognito

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I'm aghast. They designed a feature of the Kindle to show readers the text of my book without recording that they saw it and without paying me for that reading in KU.


This x 2. All I know is that my next series is going to be distributed wide immediately. I find it offensive that they would throw us this garbage. And I'm the least easily offended human on the planet.


----------



## 75845

emilycantore said:


> I have an author friend in one of these groups who writes in the same genre as my pen-name. She makes more sales and has more page reads - but has a worse rank than my book with fewer sales and fewer page reads. We've been comparing and discussing a lot since this whole problem came up. Her aggregate pages and sales are higher than mine overall for that book. Our books came out within a week of each other. Hers is 2000 words longer than mine and our KENPCs are 13 pages different.
> 
> It's about a close as a pure split test experiment as you could hope to find. We're even writing series and our books float near each other.


I'm afraid its not a good comparison because you are missing the key datapoint: how many borrows per page read.

Author A sells more and gets more page reads. This may mean that everyone who downloads reads the whole book.
Author B sells less gets less page reads, but has a higher ranking. This might indicate that Author B has an inticing blurb that does not fit in with the opening chapter resulting in a higher number of borrows but a lower percentage of complete read throughs.

Your example tends to support the theory that Amazon were being honest in stating that borrows would be treated like a sale and have stuck to that policy and the notion that reads are not a relevant factor would also fit best with your example. But without the datapoint of numbers of borrows and percentages read before returning the book only Amazon can know, but its not a very useful piece of information for them.

Amazon's main concern is not hiring PhDs, but keeping customers happy and they found out from KU1 that short stories do not keep them happy enough so KU2 was designed to keep novelists and other long form writers happy. Removing the borrow = sale for ranking would leave many authors unhappy, because then a borrow is not just a lost sale but a lost ranking boost. Reads could be used to determine if a rank is maintained longer akin to maintaining sales rank, but it would not serve Amazon's financial interest. Amazon wants a customer to keen coming back to their site, so a customer who remains happy with KU but only ever reads half the book will be better for Amazon as they will be visiting the site twice as often as the customer still busy reading the second half of her downloaded books. Happy customers paying the KU subscription for less outgoings in page reads is the perfect result for Amazon. Better profits result from pairing your income and paring your outgoings. The shorter reads in KU1 served Amazon's purpose (bringing fixed fee subscribers back to the site more often), but it broke down when too many cancelled KU because shorter reads did not serve the subscribers' wants.


----------



## Crystal_

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> When I first heard this was going on, I thought the same thing- it must be an intermittent issue. However, I talk to dozens of authors regularly on various channels, forums, and through personal contact and everyone who has published something since the first week in September is seeing this issue to one degree or another. I have yet to see someone show me reliable data that shows that the problem isn't affecting them.
> 
> I want to release and release in KU. It's been great for me and great for readers but if the money isn't there it's no longer justified.


It's hard to say. I have friends who say their pages are normal. I have friends who say their pages are lower but within a normal range. I have friends who say their pages are low, but they use bonus books and other things that may be currently triggering problems. Hell, I have a pair of co-author friends who have different takes on the pages on the book they wrote together.

It would be great, for my mental health, if Amazon announced a fix in the next week or two. If not, I really don't know what I'm going to do.


----------



## pwtucker

Just another data point here. 

My books are all in KU. Since August 11 my income has fallen by 50% in an even downsloping line. No sudden drop offs or anything dramatic. Both the red sales line and blue KU line follow roughly the same path down. My two main earners have slowly dropped in rank during this same time period as well. Book 1 in my series has dropped from #800 to about #2900, and Book 2 has dropped from #1,200 to about #5,200.

Since I've not published anything since mid July or run any promos, this seems normal to me. 

I have Book 3 slated to publish at the beginning of Nov. I'm going to be watching this thread closely to see what transpires between now and then.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I've been looking at the numbers for days now.

I can't justify publishing a book when it appears overwhelmingly likely that it will make 1/10th of what the last one did, assuming it performs equally. That's simply not enough.

Their response to this has been terrible. Why can't they just tell us what's going on?

So far they've played a game of telephone with us, speaking to seemingly random author-publishers on the phone while ignoring others and telling different people different things.

Meanwhile, our business models are imploding.

We have data that shows consistent performance from book to book suddenly cratering with a 90% reduction and they insist everything is fine and a minor unnamed and unexplained issue affected 2% (or .02%? That's a huge difference when the total is in the billions) of reads were affected. Yet somehow everyone is seeing 30-90% reductions.

I just saw this article, another author reporting the same thing:

https://teleread.org/2016/10/08/amazon-kdp-select-authors-are-losing-page-reads-apparently-due-to-software-glitches/

On top of all that, they designed a feature into the kindle device/software that displays our content without paying us for it, and dissembled and used vague wording to try to deny it and then turned around admitted that yes, this new feature lets users read an entire book without the author being paid.

Now they assure us that these reads are negligible (while also telling us that they are intentionally not being counted- how can you tell if something that isn't counted is a negligible amount?) while everyone contacting them directly about the problem gets a form letter telling them the business department, whoever that is, is looking at it, whatever that means.

I would be so much more confident about my publishing future if they would just:

-Definitively confirm there's a problem
-Tell us what it is
-Tell us how they plan to fix it
-HONESTLY tell us the scope of the issue
-Tell us when we can expect it to be fixed
-If there's been a change, tell us what it is
-If they expect us to format our books a certain way, tell us how

Is that too much to ask?

At this point I'm even afraid to update my backmatter links, out of fear an updated file will completely tank my back catalog income. My publishing business is completely frozen until they say something definitive.


----------



## Brad West

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I used Vellum to generate a .mobi file.
> 
> I have other Vellum books that don't have it including another test I ran this week. I didn't do anything differently.


Page Flip requires Enhanced Typesetting. Currently, Amazon isn't able to apply Enhanced Typesetting to Kindle eBooks created with Vellum that:

Use drop caps, as is the default for Book Styles like Meridian and Kindred
Include SVG images, which are used for ornamental breaks, heading ornaments, and images for Twitter and Facebook
We of course have no idea whether Page Flip affects reads, but hopefully that clarifies why some Vellum eBooks have Page Flip enabled and some do not.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Thank you for clarifying. I really appreciate that.

For everone else: It absolutely affects reads, they just announced that if a user reads the whole book that way, we don't get paid.

There's something else at play though, because several of the people who have told me they have the issue (and shown me their graphs) don't have pageflip enabled.

By the way, because I've seen people arguing about this:

For pageflip to work, the book has to be enabled and the device has to be compatible with it.

All the apps have it a considerable amount of reading activity takes place on phones and tablets.

Readers have been reporting that it opens by default in some cases.


----------



## Atunah

AliceW said:


> Ditto. I format with Vellum and none of my titles have page flip enabled.


I have 2 of yours books on my kindle and I do have the regular page flip. I don't have the bird view with 9 pages on one page. But no mortal human could ever read on that one, so if they use page flip, its the regular one page one and that one is available.

I posted the 2 different pictures up thread of the regular page flip, which has been on the kindles for months now and the new page flip bird view that is new. On android app there is no old or new page flip with your books. So whatever is going on, if it is related to page flip at all, would only affect apps on android and ithingies. I can't recall now how long fires have had it. Since the readable page flip has been on kindles for quite some time and the other cannot be read, it wouldn't be the kindle (e-ink) readers having any effect on this.

Curious things.


----------



## pwtucker

Has anybody heard from an author with an Amazon rep? I'd be curious to know if their reps have shared any insight into what's going on.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Not a one, but the only authors I know who had reps have had their reps retract most of their contact over the last year.

In any case, the representatives don't represent you to Amazon, they represent Amazon to you. They operate under the same guidelines as the frontline KDP reps that answer your emails, which is: If someone asks about page reads, tell them it's normal and that they  need to promote better if they want to make money.

From what I've heard Amazon is even more selective about who gets a rep than ever.

I wouldn't expect anything clear from them to begin with. People have talked to KDP employees at multiple levels, in customer service, in technical, and in the administrative end, and they all say different things at different times.

The only statement they make publicly is a dismissive answer about PageFlip. Twice now.


----------



## tresero

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Not a one, but the only authors I know who had reps have had their reps retract most of their contact over the last year.
> 
> In any case, the representatives don't represent you to Amazon, they represent Amazon to you. They operate under the same guidelines as the frontline KDP reps that answer your emails, which is: If someone asks about page reads, tell them it's normal and that they need to promote better if they want to make money.
> 
> From what I've heard Amazon is even more selective about who gets a rep than ever.
> 
> I wouldn't expect anything clear from them to begin with. People have talked to KDP employees at multiple levels, in customer service, in technical, and in the administrative end, and they all say different things at different times.
> 
> The only statement they make publicly is an angry sounding, lady doth protest too much statement about PageFlip. Twice now.


Exactly. Reps don't get involved in this stuff. And I know at least one who has told me that.


----------



## Cherise

Brad West said:


> Page Flip requires Enhanced Typesetting. *Currently*, Amazon isn't able to apply Enhanced Typesetting to Kindle eBooks created with Vellum that:
> 
> Use drop caps, as is the default for Book Styles like Meridian and Kindred
> Include SVG images, which are used for ornamental breaks, heading ornaments, and images for Twitter and Facebook
> We of course have no idea whether Page Flip affects reads, but hopefully that clarifies why some Vellum eBooks have Page Flip enabled and some do not.


Vellum formatting marathon for the win!

For now.


----------



## NotAPenguin

We need to get our readers to admit directly to KDP that they are reading with this feature.

I keep finding proof of it in magazine articles and all over FB, tumblr snd Twitter.  People either love it or hate it but they are definitely reading with it.

If we stop complaining about this they will never ever fix it.


----------



## Cherise

Atunah said:


> I have 2 of your [Vellum Formatted] books on my kindle and I do have the regular page flip. I don't have the bird view with 9 pages on one page. But no mortal human could ever read on that one, so if they use page flip, its the regular one-page one and that one is available.


Maybe Vellum doesn't defeat reading in Page Flip after all, then.


----------



## Nothing To See

Brad West said:


> Page Flip requires Enhanced Typesetting. Currently, Amazon isn't able to apply Enhanced Typesetting to Kindle eBooks created with Vellum that:
> 
> Use drop caps, as is the default for Book Styles like Meridian and Kindred
> Include SVG images, which are used for ornamental breaks, heading ornaments, and images for Twitter and Facebook
> We of course have no idea whether Page Flip affects reads, but hopefully that clarifies why some Vellum eBooks have Page Flip enabled and some do not.


This is actually really helpful information.

As an aside, a friend received an email from KDP support noting that one of his KU books was not available in the latest Kindle format, which would enable Enhanced Typesetting and Page Flip, among other noted features. The letter said that support had gone ahead and reformatted it for him to make it compatible with those new features, and that he should just confirm and publish to enable the newly formatted book if he wanted to accept the changes.

Reformat to make sure some of my reads aren't counted? Um...sure. Okay.

Off to make sure my books are formatted using only the two styles mentioned above.


----------



## Atunah

Cherise said:


> Maybe Vellum doesn't defeat reading in Page Flip after all, then.


It does defeat it on the apps though apparently. And since the kindle app version really is the one that is new and readable, It has to be coming from that. If that is the issue here. 
I only read on my kindles so I can't relate to those reading on phones and tablets, but I know many do. But many also read on their kindles, so who knows.


----------



## Cherise

Nothing To See said:


> This is actually really helpful information.
> 
> As an aside, a friend received an email from KDP support noting that one of his KU books was not available in the latest Kindle format, which would enable Enhanced Typesetting and Page Flip, among other noted features. The letter said that support had gone ahead and reformatted it for him to make it compatible with those new features, and that he should just confirm and publish to enable the newly formatted book if he wanted to accept the changes.
> 
> Reformat to make sure some of my reads aren't counted? Um...sure. Okay.
> 
> Off to make sure my books are formatted using only the two styles mentioned above.


Why bother, if KDP support is just going to 'fix it' to be compatible with Page Flip?

BTW, someone said up thread that KDP is letting authors get out of Select early. If you want out, all you have to do is request out for each book by ASIN, using the 'Contact Us' form.

I'm giving them till the end of October, and if the issues aren't addressed by then, I'm pulling all my books that are in Select and widely distributing them. And of course widely releasing new books, too.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Cherise said:


> Why bother, if KDP support is just going to 'fix it' to be compatible with Page Flip?
> 
> BTW, someone said up thread that KDP is letting authors get out of Select early. If you want out, all you have to do is request out for each book by ASIN, using the 'Contact Us' form.
> 
> I'm giving them till the end of October, and if the issues aren't addressed by then, I'm pulling all my books that are in Select and widely distributing them. And of course widely releasing new books, too.


Sounds like a plan. I'm willing to wait a bit longer because I have promos scheduled. But, I can't help thinking that part of the plan is to drive us out of KU.


----------



## RinG

I'm actually wondering how much of this accounts for the differences. I've been following this thread closely, but not commenting, since I haven't had any definite effects on my pages read. I just checked, and pretty much all of my books, other than one that barely gets any sales/page reads anyway, don't have advanced typesetting enabled.

So I'd love to know if having advanced typesetting/page flip enabled or not correlates to whether people are seeing a problem or not.


----------



## AllyWho

Atunah said:


> I have 2 of yours books on my kindle and I do have the regular page flip. I don't have the bird view with 9 pages on one page. But no mortal human could ever read on that one, so if they use page flip, its the regular one page one and that one is available.


Thanks for that. Odd though because I use the drop cap, which Brad says upthread is one of the things that disables page flip. There's a wee mystery. Not that it bothers me, as those books are out of KU now.

Plus I have something else to stress over now, what Atunah thinks of my books! lol I stalk your GR ratings because they are ones I trust and use to find more books to read


----------



## Atunah

AliceW said:


> Thanks for that. Odd though because I use the drop cap, which Brad says upthread is one of the things that disables page flip. There's a wee mystery. Not that it bothers me, as those books are out of KU now.
> 
> Plus I have something else to stress over now, what Atunah thinks of my books! lol I stalk your GR ratings because they are ones I trust and use to find more books to read


Be afraid, be very afraid 
I already liked the first one, I have the 2nd and 3rd sitting in my KU slots since you mentioned you gonna yank them. 
You can be sure in any case that I do not read with page flip though. 

Your books are disabled for page flip on the apps, so the new page flip does not work. Just the old one on the e-ink kindles. But I figure someone would have noticed something in the last few months with that one if there was an issue.


----------



## tresero

Cherise said:


> Why bother, if KDP support is just going to 'fix it' to be compatible with Page Flip?
> 
> BTW, someone said up thread that KDP is letting authors get out of Select early. If you want out, all you have to do is request out for each book by ASIN, using the 'Contact Us' form.
> 
> I'm giving them till the end of October, and if the issues aren't addressed by then, I'm pulling all my books that are in Select and widely distributing them. And of course widely releasing new books, too.


I just tried getting 2 books out and they said no.


----------



## Going Incognito

Rinelle Grey said:


> I'm actually wondering how much of this accounts for the differences. I've been following this thread closely, but not commenting, since I *haven't had any definite effects on my pages read*. I just checked, and pretty much all of my books, other than one that barely gets any sales/page reads anyway, *don't have advanced typesetting enabled.*
> 
> So I'd love to know if having advanced typesetting/page flip enabled or not correlates to whether people are seeing a problem or not.


No effects, not page flip enabled. And your one that is- barely gets any sales/page reads.
I'm down in income 75%, every book I have is page flip enabled.
Just sayin'.


----------



## Brad West

Nothing To See said:


> Off to make sure my books are formatted using only the two styles mentioned above.


To further clarify, Kindred and Meridian are just example styles. Currently, any use of one of Vellum's drop caps causes Enhanced Typesetting to be disabled, as does any use of one of Vellum's built-in images (for ornamental breaks, etc.). Making use of the About the Author Facebook/Twitter links, for example, is enough to cause Enhanced Typesetting to not be applied.

Additionally, this is only the case if you upload the Kindle-specific mobi file, something we always recommend for best results. (For compatibility, the Generic EPUB file created by Vellum uses PNG images instead of SVG images, and PNG images work fine with Enhanced Typesetting.)

Lastly, don't be surprised if, when you upload a Vellum-generated mobi file to KDP, the KDP Online Previewer times out on you. This is a months-long issue with the KDP Online Previewer, and doesn't mean there's a problem with your book. (Though we have an unverified hunch that it's also related to Enhanced Typesetting.)

Hope that helps.


----------



## meh

TOS.


----------



## tresero

judygoodwin said:


> I'm just curious to see when the higher selling authors will start banding together to start that class action lawsuit that Amazon seems to be preparing itself for.
> 
> I can only imagine what such a trial would look like with the proof of not paying with these flip reads.


Well it would take a law firm with a lot of money. Amazon can pay way more. Even if the lawsuit happens, you will see pennies at the most of the settlement. Now if authors abandon KU, that's a much better solution. If, of course, they never admit to anything. If they are just stalling to find a fix and retroactively pay us, I will be happier, not happy, happier, and hope they learn. Not holding my breath though.

A side note.

Many of you may not follow software that much, but I was involved from the early 80's on as a programmer and researcher.

In the 80's there was company called WordPerfect, they owned the space and couldn't' be knocked off their perch.
There was also a company called Lotus 123, they had a lock on the spread sheet business.
Of course, we can't forget about Borland and dBase.

Then along came Microsoft. They had a good operating system MS-DOS, it wasn't a monopoly, but they came out with Office.
But don't forget IBM, they were the 10000 pound giant in the room. They had IBM DOS.

Then the web came along and disrupted it all. My first website was built before Google was even a twinkle in anyone's eye. We had Mosaic. Then a company called Netscape came along. How could they lose? Oops, the little company called Microsoft finally got serious and released the Netscape killer called Internet Explorer. Bye Netscape, 90% saturation by IE. Then IE sucked and a company called Google decided to branch out and created a browser called Chrome (after Mozilla sort of competed). Bye Microsoft, you are now the new IBM.

Oh, remember Earthlink? or how about Compuserve? Many companies lived and died by picking winners.

Anyway, I could go on, but the point is: Tech changes. I'm not a futurist, but if you think Amazon will be the dominant company forever, just ask these former "untouchable monopolies." As much as this fiasco sucks for all of us, it's a good lesson on strategy. Have a plan in case your biggest account screws you.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Atunah said:


> Be afraid, be very afraid
> I already liked the first one, I have the 2nd and 3rd sitting in my KU slots since you mentioned you gonna yank them.
> You can be sure in any case that I do not read with page flip though.
> 
> Your books are disabled for page flip on the apps, so the new page flip does not work. Just the old one on the e-ink kindles. But I figure someone would have noticed something in the last few months with that one if there was an issue.


I did start a thread several weeks ago asking about single page reads. The consensus seemed to be that it was readers just checking to make sure the book downloaded okay. Now we know better.


----------



## tresero

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I did start a thread several weeks ago asking about single page reads. The consensus seemed to be that it was readers just checking to make sure the book downloaded okay. Now we know better.


correlation isn't causation.


----------



## JustWriting

This may have already been mentioned upthread, but is the drop in pagereads related to whether a book does or does not have *Enhanced Typesetting* enabled? This seems a prerequisite for pageflip to be enabled.

Some authors have mentioned their pagereads seem unaffected - is that because their books are NOT enhanced typesetting enabled?
Some authors have reported that only SOME of their books are affected - do the ones affected have enhanced typesetting enabled?

If an author's pagereads are normally low anyway it may not be possible to draw any real conclusion from their figures as any discrepancy could just be the normal ups and downs of sales, but for those who typically get high volumes of pagereads (maybe 100k+/day) it should be possible to check the performance of those books with or without Enhanced Typesetting.


----------



## BloodHound

Complaints like this are typically handled by the FTC. They don't investigate though until somebody files a complaint which can be filed online.


----------



## ......~......

emilycantore said:


> This is really why collective author action will ultimately be required. We don't have a union, we don't have a single place to report stuff like this nor a body that can speak with power for us.
> 
> If we had a body representing us, we'd probably launch an "unenroll from KDP Select" day over this matter.
> 
> Amazon is the big dog but they aren't the big dog they used to be. They had enormous market size that has been slowly cut down by Apple and the rest.
> 
> If enough of us refuse to play this game of attrition against the other retailers for short-term gain, KU would need to get a hell of a lot better.
> 
> If enough of us forced the issue, we'd probably be able to kill exclusivity. It just requires enough popular authors to go wide simultaneously.


This would be amazing.

I, of course, would stay all in and reap the benefits of less competition for a couple of months.


----------



## Cherise

JustWriting said:


> This may have already been mentioned upthread, but is the drop in pagereads related to whether a book does or does not have *Enhanced Typesetting* enabled? This seems a prerequisite for pageflip to be enabled.
> 
> Some authors have mentioned their pagereads seem unaffected - is that because their books are NOT enhanced typesetting enabled?
> Some authors have reported that only SOME of their books are affected - do the ones affected have enhanced typesetting enabled?
> 
> If an author's pagereads are normally low anyway it may not be possible to draw any real conclusion from their figures as any discrepancy could just be the normal ups and downs of sales, but for those who typically get high volumes of pagereads (maybe 100k+/day) it should be possible to check the performance of those books with or without Enhanced Typesetting.


Yes.



Brad West said:


> To further clarify, Kindred and Meridian are just example styles. Currently, any use of one of Vellum's drop caps causes Enhanced Typesetting to be disabled, as does any use of one of Vellum's built-in images (for ornamental breaks, etc.). Making use of the About the Author Facebook/Twitter links, for example, is enough to cause Enhanced Typesetting to not be applied.
> 
> Additionally, this is only the case if you upload the Kindle-specific mobi file, something we always recommend for best results. (For compatibility, the Generic EPUB file created by Vellum uses PNG images instead of SVG images, and PNG images work fine with Enhanced Typesetting.)
> 
> Lastly, don't be surprised if, when you upload a Vellum-generated mobi file to KDP, the KDP Online Previewer times out on you. This is a months-long issue with the KDP Online Previewer, and doesn't mean there's a problem with your book. (Though we have an unverified hunch that it's also related to Enhanced Typesetting.)
> 
> Hope that helps.


----------



## Colin

Not sure that this has any relevance to the discussion, but I have just re-uploaded a book newly published earlier today, after making a small tweak to the book page blurb. When I hit save and publish, this message flashed up: *Error computing royalties Your changes have been saved, but your book has not been published. There was an error encountered computing royalties. Please try again later.*

I tried again a minute later and all went through as normal. Very strange.


----------



## jason2505

Colin said:


> Not sure that this has any relevance to the discussion, but I have just re-uploaded a book newly published earlier today, after making a small tweak to the book page blurb. When I hit save and publish, this message flashed up: *Error computing royalties Your changes have been saved, but your book has not been published. There was an error encountered computing royalties. Please try again later.*
> 
> I tried again a minute later and all went through as normal. Very strange.


----------



## RinG

I've been checking the book of those who are reporting no issues, and thus far the majority of them have page flip enabled! So that doesn't seem to be the entire problem.

However, I did get this report from a reader. Anyone else seeing the same thing?



> As a reader, I suppose I should mention that I can't read books with enhanced typesetting (at least not those with pictures to start chapters and fancy fleurons and lots of non-text) on my two-year-old Kindle Fire. I've returned four Prime Reading books that were graphically enhanced in the past week because I could only see 3/4 of the page, no matter what I did to text size or orientation. The ONLY way I could see it all was in the page flip view, which is far too small for me to read. As I had 1000 other book choices, I didn't hassle with it further, just returned them.= Zero reads. I suspect this began with page flip's introduction because I never noticed it before.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Great, so older Kindles can only read in page flip. That must be why it's having a "negligible impact."

I'm convinced they simply broke the system. We need answers.

Re: All this legal talk.

One group of authors that I'm a part of is already approaching professional organizations and their legal teams about this.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Anarchist

NeedWant said:


> I, of course, would stay all in and reap the benefits of less competition for a couple of months.


I like the way you think.


----------



## Thetis

tresero said:


> I just tried getting 2 books out and they said no.


Call them. That's what I did - I called the number in this thread, got transferred four times, finally got to the right department, explained why I wanted out, had my request submitted up the food chain, and got the confirmation that all of my books had been withdrawn from Select within 24 hours.


----------



## Richardo72

I'm seriously considering leaving KU. Something is broken, and the denial from Amazon is just rude.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Richardo72 said:


> I'm seriously considering leaving KU. Something is broken, and the denial from Amazon is just rude.


It's way more than rude. It's cruel. I was just entering the final revisions of project I've been working on for over a year, a book I've dreamed of writing, spent years building a fanbase... and now this happens and all we get are terse announcements on a message board most authors never look at. They can send us an email about censorship after World War II but not a short message to assure us there's a problem and it's being worked on.

Or tell us there is no problem and the planned it. Which is it? When are we going to find out?

Oh, and let's not forget that this started the same week they sent out those #poweredbyindie emails.


----------



## badtothebone

Someone suggested I post numbers from a book I launched at the beginning of this week. I'm not going to disclose my pen-name, or anything, so you'll have to take what I say on faith– I can't see a way of uploading a screenshot onto this board.

Yesterday I received 225 sales. page reads barely updated all day, and finally topped out at a whopping 1,625. That works out at 7.5 Page reads per sale, which is insane. This is for book which is currently rated at 4.8 stars, so I can't believe that it's not going down well. While it's early in America, I've yet to see any spike in reading activity today.

The idea that this issue is fixed is patently absurd. I don't know how much of a role page flip is playing, but the fact is this issue is now stretching into at least its second month without resolution, and it has tanked two of my books so far. We are getting to the stage where authors will simply have to pull out of kindle unlimited to maintain their incomes. I will be investigating legal options, and I imagine others might as well.

I don't understand why individual books seem to perform differently to each other, but it makes releasing into a crapshoot. I have a five book calendar to release until year end. Right now I don't know what the hell I'm going to do with them.

I would warn other authors that at this point releasing into Unlimited may not be a death sentence for your book– But it could be. You'll have to make up your mind whether this is a risk worth taking.


----------



## David VanDyke

SparkWrite said:


> He asked me to forward email addresses to him of people who have evidence page flip isn't working. Sorry, but he asked that I not share his contact info. I want to stay in his "good books" as he said I can contact him anytime with questions. Please PM me if you have evidence of the page flip KENP issue and I'll try my best in connecting you with this rep as he genuinely sounded like he wants to hear as much info as he can about this.


Pass mine on. I've spoken with ECR before. I did a blog post on Teleread about this in which I tried out the page read test and it returned 1 page read. David (at) davidvandykeauthor.com. That's not my KDP sign-in email address, though.


----------



## Mxz

Just adding that I don't make much money but the problem affected my books too.  A few days I noticed one page read or 3 on book that are read 1-3 times "completely" per day.  One book dropped from an 80k ranking to 300k.  Last month I released a new book and was puzzled why it barely had any page reads for a niche of a genre where 80% of the money made is off of page reads.  So it doesn't matter if you make a lot or a little, you could be affected too. I called, they said they'd investigate, but my pages haven't gone up yet.


----------



## Allyson J.

For the month of October, I've had 8 sales and no page reads across two romance series (one wide, one in KU). That's like slow DAY numbers. I have a new release (wide) coming in two weeks. I've decided to postpone my KU new release for a while, as I'm anxious to book promos for either pen name. Sales on other vendors are fine, even after I raised my prices.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## raminar_dixon

1800+ KENPC bundle.

380,000 words long.

Several well-known authors in their genre (romance, bad boy romances)

Released on Oct. 1st with plenty of buzz.

$1300 spent so far on various promotions (ENT, MRR, KND, FB ads, lots more), most of which have already run.

Great also-boughts (some others linked in the top 50).

Multiple days since release with 100+ sales each day.

A publisher/author with a track record of success and nearly 5 years of experience.

Average pagereads for the month so far?

*2,200 per day.*

Ranking?

*Tanking.*

Days spent waiting for a real response from Amazon? (other than "keep waiting")

*10.*

All the other bundles I released on October 1st are seeing a similar kind of pattern. A pattern of *suck*. Those 7 bundles make up well over a million words. Average pagereads on those million+ words so far? 14,000 per day. That's around *$61* a day (given past payouts) on more than a _million_ words of highly-promoted romance and erotica within popular subcats, with pro-quality cover art, and pretty stellar also-boughts.

Regular-length novel/novella sales and pagereads? Mostly normal. Perhaps _slightly_ less than usual.

There's no way the pagereads on my bundles are correct. This kind of ranking slide and the anemic pagereads goes against all my experience thus far. And yes, I have experienced plenty of miserable failures. This is new. On my end, everything is in its right place, and the expectation of a good release feels extremely well-supported. Instead, I feel like I'm swimming against a raging current. A current made of mud.

And I'm not alone. There's 27 pages of discussion about it here...but there's 40+ at DD. And our pages are much longer there, lol. That's not the only other place authors are talking about this either, and I continue to hear similar stories from most of them.

Amazon...what the heck, bro?


----------



## pwtucker

raminar_dixon said:


> And I'm not alone. There's 27 pages of discussion about it here...but there's 40+ at DD. And our pages are much longer there, lol. That's not the only other place authors are talking about this either, and I continue to hear similar stories from most of them.


Can you share the link to the thread in the DD forum? I've no idea what/where that is.


----------



## raminar_dixon

pwtucker said:


> Can you share the link to the thread in the DD forum? I've no idea what/where that is.


DD is here: http://dirtydiscourse.com/

Be aware that it's a private, pay-walled community composed almost entirely of romance and erotica authors.


----------



## bobfrost

Page flip is a minor distraction here. Sure, it's costing us a few pages, but even in the least optimistic scenario it can't possibly be having the effect we are seeing right now.

The numbers raminar just posted aren't page flip related issues. That's pointing at potentially huge issues on amazons end.

Either the overall KU subscriber base has suddenly collapsed (unlikely, especially considering I have a book currently pulling down over 100,000 page reads per day), or Amazon isn't properly counting pages read in books such as raminars bundle. 

The numbers he posted go directly against everything I know about KU page reads. A huge bundle with hundreds of sales shouldn't be nailing down 2200 page reads per day. Something is very wrong there.

There must be a reason behind this. Those numbers fly in the face of logic. Lets not sit here and bicker about page flip when clearly something far bigger is going on.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Atlantisatheart said:


> Posted By:	kdpadmin
> Created in:	System: Global Announcement
> Posted:	Oct 12, 2016 4:07 PM
> Page flip is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes.
> 
> That's their lie and they are sticking to it. Time to go wide.


They amended the announcement last night.

It now reads,

Posted By:	kdpadmin
Created in:	System: Global Announcement
Posted:	Oct 12, 2016 9:49 PM
Some authors have asked questions about Page Flip's usage not counting towards page counts. Page Flip is a navigational tool. By design, using it for navigation does not count toward pages read. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes _*in reader behavior*_

Emphasis mine.



bobfrost said:


> Page flip is a minor distraction here. Sure, it's costing us a few pages, but even in the least optimistic scenario it can't possibly be having the effect we are seeing right now.
> 
> The numbers raminar just posted aren't page flip related issues. That's pointing at potentially huge issues on amazons end.
> 
> Either the overall KU subscriber base has suddenly collapsed (unlikely, especially considering I have a book currently pulling down over 100,000 page reads per day), or Amazon isn't properly counting pages read in books such as raminars bundle.
> 
> The numbers he posted go directly against everything I know about KU page reads. A huge bundle with hundreds of sales shouldn't be nailing down 2200 page reads per day. Something is very wrong there.
> 
> There must be a reason behind this. Those numbers fly in the face of logic. Lets not sit here and bicker about page flip when clearly something far bigger is going on.


I agree, actually.

I'm starting to think Amazon is talking about pageflip and *only* pageflip in these announcements because they're trying to deflect with it.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Even if PageFlip is a red herring, it's not reassuring when they make an announcement that they've analyzed the data they're not collecting and everything is fine, and completely ignore all the other potential problems being reported.

Also what, exactly, about this is not intended for reading?


----------



## 75845

I'm waiting three days for a reply to my email requesting withdrawal from KU. Much longer and they will get a breach of contract declaration from me and I will go wide whether they want me to or not. If they answer no I'll keep arguing with them, probably with a breach of contract declaration without going wide. Hint Amazon lurkers: reply to the email.

The annoying thing for me is that I put the books in because I planned for the first time ever to launch a book in Select, but haven't finished it yet, due to health complications. Those books auto-renewed during September while all this kerfuffle was taking place and Amazon was keeping schtum. Amazon can release me at no cost as these books hardly ever get reads. As ever I have high hopes that the next book is The One and that it would activate interest in the others. As I don't sell much in Amazon (although it better than elsewhere when wide) being banned by KDP for declaring UDI will not harm my (non) sales. Now off to read KDP Select contract and give myself a Rowan and Martin laugh-in.


----------



## Going Incognito

Even if page flip isn't everything, it def is A THING. If they fixed that, then we could see where we stood, and figure out the next fubar thing. 
There's no trust. 
I'm looking at a book with 1 page read. Hmmm. Page flip read?
I'm looking at another with 25 pages read. Did one person get 25 pages in and stop? Or did 25 people read that book in page flip? No clue. No idea how many people borrowed it. 
I'm looking at one book with dead on 100 pages read now for two days. A perfect 100? Sure. Maybe. But since I can't trust anything at all, who knows?


----------



## pwtucker

I'm curious as to why this seems to only be affecting some authors and not all. Technical problems like Page Flip and so forth should be affecting all KU authors, no?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Exactly. They give us no data, when there's an obvious and community-wide report of a massive downturn in reads they deny it and tell us it's in our heads, and then they post a contradictory announcement that says they've analyzed data they don't collect and everything is fine.

Or do they collect data on reading in PageFlip? If they have the data why not just credit us for that reading activity? Aren't they supposed to be paying us when a reader views our content? Isn't that what we and they agreed to when they offered KU and we signed up?

The announcement is so vague I don't even know what's going on. The updated version just made it worse.

They couldn't be destroying trust in this program any harder if they tried.



pwtucker said:


> I'm curious as to why this seems to only be affecting some authors and not all. Technical problems like Page Flip and so forth should be affecting all KU authors, no?


The reason that most of us are assuming that this is a bug and not intentional is that we don't know how widespread it is.

If you look at the numbers upthread it's pretty clear that if it's not everyone, many many people who have published a book after the first week in September are seeing hugely reduced reads with no explanation why.


----------



## jcalloway

doctorshevil said:


> If you look upthread, people who format in Vellum using a style that does caps drop at the beginning of a chapter, and/or who use ornamental breaks, are not seeing the Page Flip issue (yet) because Amazon hasn't enabled it for those formats. I happen to be one of those people. But I'm sure Zon are working on it, so at best it's only a temporary reprieve.


Not exactly. I format with Vellum.

Here's a book from yesterday: 
















I have three more books just like it today.

I add ornament breaks in chapters to separate POV changes and use flourishes on numbered chapter pages, but no drop caps.

The book from the screengrabs hasn't been updated in any way in over a year (not even keyword or price changes). It used to pull in 2-5k page reads per day. It's dropped to almost nothing since July.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Most of us who have been in this industry for years know what we're doing. If Raminar says that his new bundle is getting next to no reads by comparison, I believe him.

The "big names" (I'm regularly in the top 20 so I'm going to call myself a big name) are professionals. I'm a writer but I also have an MBA and studied business statistics and math. I've made a career of this and when things don't work I usually know why.

These page read numbers are broken. I've never seen anyone report a 90% drop from one book to the next.

An out and out flop would usually be something like a 50% drop, and not _everyone at once._ All the authors I'm talking to are reporting this dip.


----------



## Indiecognito

I just unchecked an entire series from KU renewal. Formatted with Vellum. No drop caps, which may account for some of the lack of performance. Either way, it makes zero financial sense to leave the books in, rather than put them wide and permafree the first.


----------



## Indiecognito

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Most of us who have been in this industry for years know what we're doing. If Raminar says that his new bundle is getting next to no reads by comparison, I believe him.
> 
> The "big names" (I'm regularly in the top 20 so I'm going to call myself a big name) are professionals. I'm a writer but I also have an MBA and studied business statistics and math. I've made a career of this and when things don't work I usually know why.
> 
> These page read numbers are broken. I've never seen anyone report a 90% drop from one book to the next.
> 
> An out and out flop would usually be something like a 50% drop, and not _everyone at once._ All the authors I'm talking to are reporting this dip.


I used to have a mailing list of about 1400, it's now almost 15,000. And my book releases are less lucrative than they were with 1/10 the list. So I'm with you; this is bizarre and completely nonsensical.


----------



## raminar_dixon

FWIW, none of the bundles that are experiencing this issue were formatted with Vellum.

They were all uploaded as extremely plain Microsoft Word documents.

I did it that way on purpose since they were so huge to try and curtail any hiccups or glitches.



Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Most of us who have been in this industry for years know what we're doing. If Raminar says that his new bundle is getting next to no reads by comparison, I believe him.
> 
> The "big names" (I'm regularly in the top 20 so I'm going to call myself a big name) are professionals. I'm a writer but I also have an MBA and studied business statistics and math. I've made a career of this and when things don't work I usually know why.
> 
> These page read numbers are broken. I've never seen anyone report a 90% drop from one book to the next.
> 
> An out and out flop would usually be something like a 50% drop, and not _everyone at once._ All the authors I'm talking to are reporting this dip.


Thanks.


----------



## mwright

Was told to come add my clusterf*ckery to this shebang!

So here's what I'VE noticed!

1) August was my second best month of the year. Then September hit... and I bottomed out like a glass bottomed boat on a barrier reef.
2) In an effort to test the page reads snafu, I did a freebie promo on the final week of September. 

From Sept 28 until the 30th, WRITING MR RIGHT was freebied. 
3783 downloads during that three day period. Given I always see a spike in pages from KU readers during my freebie promos, it's always Promo money well spent. And yet on a book with 379 kenpc...
Page reads during and after - 
Sept 28th - 110 pages (2229 total across all titles)
Sept 29th - 315 pages (2657 day total)
Sept 30th - 151 pages (2371 day total)
Oct 1st - 744 pages (3610 day total)

So by this tally, my BIGGEST peak after over 3k downloads was two full reads. This is a very well reviewed title of mine. Something is hugely amiss, especially since...

Other freebies I've run.
SAVING HER BEAR - July 27 - 29th
5600 free downloads.
Jul 28th - 2536 pages (overall page reads 10k) SPIKE
Jul 29th - 667 pages (5787 day total)
Jul 30th - 2614 pages (9415 day total) SPIKE
July 31st - 652 pages (6411 day total)

Both spikes happened while the title was still free. My most recent freebie promo had NO spike to speak of. During or after. None. For the first time in my career, a promo didn't pay for itself.


Another interesting event.

On October 11th, 12th, and 13th, I suddenly had a spike of 3099 pages read for my title The Bears of Blackrock (kenpc 774). Very odd given this book has been unpublished since September 7th... So either a handful of people snatched that book months ago and all had a book club style thunder read, or Amazon just randomly credited me for pages they didn't feel like giving me in the beginning of September (part of the reason I unpublished the title.)




Overall, my averages are halved, my best sellers have gone from thousands of pages a day to ZERO pages on some days, and I'm wary to publish or promo anything for fear I'm throwing my hard work into a trash fire. Stressful enough to make a good girl turn to smut. (wink wink nudge nudge, say no more)


----------



## meh

TOS.


----------



## Sailor Stone

Some data for what it is worth and a question:
I am a small fish in this discussion. But, I just put my first book in KU and did a promo launch 16 days ago. I have averaged 32 sales per day and 1143 pages read per day on a 295 KU page book. That averages to just under four book equivalents being read in KU per day so far. Is that number considered high, low, or about right for the amount of sales? Thanks.


----------



## KerryT2012

pwtucker said:


> I'm curious as to why this seems to only be affecting some authors and not all. Technical problems like Page Flip and so forth should be affecting all KU authors, no?


I have spoken to several authors who are under the assumption that no one wants to read their books. Until, I highlight that there has been an issue which has been going on for weeks now. They just thought it was the summer slump or that no one wanted to read their books anymore. Amazon has managed to not only destroy the business of authors, but their morales too


----------



## Indiecognito

Sailor Stone said:


> Some data for what it is worth and a question:
> I am a small fish in this discussion. But, I just put my first book in KU and did a promo launch 16 days ago. I have averaged 32 sales per day and 1143 pages read per day on a 295 KU page book. That averages to just under four book equivalents being read in KU per day so far. Is that number considered high, low, or about right for the amount of sales? Thanks.


Those sales are great. But the 1143 pages read seems very low to me. I mentioned a while back having 10 sales on a book, 8000 pages read (it's longer than yours, but not six times as long)


----------



## SandraMiller

What if--Amazon can tell that Page Flip is being used...but not *how* it is being used? I used it on my Android device just last night to look something up in one of my past books. I flipped super fast through dozens of pages, found what I wanted, read a few pages around it...all in Page Flip. Amazon likely knows that I was in Page Flip, moving through the book.

But I bet they can't tell what I flipped past and what I stopped and read. If they weren't expecting readers to use it for actual reading, they may not have bothered collecting any timestamps along with the activity. How do you set a minimum time it might take a reader to actually read a page? They probably didn't even want to have that conversation. They probably do know when Page Flip is used, but they can't tell when a page is scrolled right past without pausing, and when it is actually displayed.

This would put them in an interesting quandary...they know there is the possibility it is being used this way. They can't prove it isn't. They can't verify that it is. They have data, but not data they can use to resolve this. The only option, were they to admit it, would be to pay for every page ever scrolled past in Page Flip--and no way will they do that. So they can't admit anything. And best of all, the only way to remedy it going forward would be with a software update.

If that's even close to true, I don't envy them. It's a massive, nasty headache. The best thing *for them* would be for them to settle on some mostly-arbitrary payment (say 2%?) as a bone to toss to authors, and then get that update out ASAP. And never, ever confirm that anything ever went pear-shaped.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Could be. They've never specifically said they're tracking how much reading is going on in pageflip. Only that they've looked at the data.

Uh, what data?

I don't think that's the main issue, though, or the cause of the low page reads.

They have also definitely not fixed anything. Releases put out this week are still reporting extremely low page reads.

This is what I think happened: As September rolls around they update a bunch of things and multiple things are broken. I'm thinking the Kindle software department didn't talk to KDP about KU at all when they designed PageFlip. Also, KDP instituted some kind of change to combat fraudulent activity and it's now reading huge amounts of legit activity as fraudulent. This is what it looks like. It would be nice if they'd just tell us what's going on.


----------



## Gone To Croatan

SandraMiller said:


> If that's even close to true, I don't envy them. It's a massive, nasty headache.


Maybe they should have thought about that before pushing people into KU.

There is no way to reliably tell which pages people read, and which they didn't. Trying to do so is a fool's errand.

The funny part is that they planned it as a way to tie customers to Amazon, but it's actually become a way to push authors away from Amazon.


----------



## tresero

doctorshevil said:


> If you look upthread, people who format in Vellum using a style that does caps drop at the beginning of a chapter, and/or who use ornamental breaks, are not seeing the Page Flip issue (yet) because Amazon hasn't enabled it for those formats. I happen to be one of those people. But I'm sure Zon are working on it, so at best it's only a temporary reprieve.


I just reformatted my new release with Jutoh doing the same thing (I just added an svg divider at the end), and now no page flip. I am making a video on my indie pub site on how to do it. But, yes, I believe it's temporary until Amazon automatically converts them. That will kill non-fiction text books and the like though. The SVG files are made for math and other things.


----------



## Steven Kelliher

So ... is it inappropriate for me to bring up legal talk?

Should we be organizing in some way? 

As has been mentioned, the noobie authors (myself included) are too small to really know if there's anything nefarious going on. My pagereads dropped at the beginning of October from an average of around 1k per day to zero. ZERO. All of a sudden. And I had a day recently with 12 pages, 100 pages, etc. So, everyone finished my book on the same day? I went from 1k to 2k pagereads per day for 60 days to zilch?


----------



## tresero

mwright said:


> Was told to come add my clusterf*ckery to this shebang!
> 
> So here's what I'VE noticed!
> 
> 1) August was my second best month of the year. Then September hit... and I bottomed out like a glass bottomed boat on a barrier reef.
> 2) In an effort to test the page reads snafu, I did a freebie promo on the final week of September.
> 
> From Sept 28 until the 30th, WRITING MR RIGHT was freebied.
> 3783 downloads during that three day period. Given I always see a spike in pages from KU readers during my freebie promos, it's always Promo money well spent. And yet on a book with 379 kenpc...
> Page reads during and after -
> Sept 28th - 110 pages (2229 total across all titles)
> Sept 29th - 315 pages (2657 day total)
> Sept 30th - 151 pages (2371 day total)
> Oct 1st - 744 pages (3610 day total)
> 
> So by this tally, my BIGGEST peak after over 3k downloads was two full reads. This is a very well reviewed title of mine. Something is hugely amiss, especially since...
> 
> Other freebies I've run.
> SAVING HER BEAR - July 27 - 29th
> 5600 free downloads.
> Jul 28th - 2536 pages (overall page reads 10k) SPIKE
> Jul 29th - 667 pages (5787 day total)
> Jul 30th - 2614 pages (9415 day total) SPIKE
> July 31st - 652 pages (6411 day total)
> 
> Both spikes happened while the title was still free. My most recent freebie promo had NO spike to speak of. During or after. None. For the first time in my career, a promo didn't pay for itself.
> 
> Another interesting event.
> 
> On October 11th, 12th, and 13th, I suddenly had a spike of 3099 pages read for my title The Bears of Blackrock (kenpc 774). Very odd given this book has been unpublished since September 7th... So either a handful of people snatched that book months ago and all had a book club style thunder read, or Amazon just randomly credited me for pages they didn't feel like giving me in the beginning of September (part of the reason I unpublished the title.)
> 
> Overall, my averages are halved, my best sellers have gone from thousands of pages a day to ZERO pages on some days, and I'm wary to publish or promo anything for fear I'm throwing my hard work into a trash fire. Stressful enough to make a good girl turn to smut. (wink wink nudge nudge, say no more)


Exactly, and I noted that many pages ago, but here is my data from a release of a spinoff last week.

I went back 2 series. This was the first 3 days

(Jan 29) Spinoff 1 book 1 - 12,625 pages, 117 sales
(Feb 20) Spinoff 1 book 2 - 15,405 pages, 96 sales
(Mar 5) Spinoff 1 book 3 - 27,512 pages, 116 sales
(Mar 26) Spinoff 1 book Complete - 6,843 pages, 32 sales

(May 25) Spinoff 2 book 1 - 10,715 pages, 77 sales
(July 8 ) Spinoff 2 book 2 - 10,026 pages,132 sales
(July 23) Spinoff 2Complete - 5,672 pages, 168 sales

Remember that Bundles in the long run sell better, but when first put out, are slow because many on the list have already read the books individually. Also my email list has added about 2500 subscribers since then.

Here is my latest released last week first 3 days.
961 page reads, 75 sales

90% loss of the average.


----------



## Sailor Stone

Indiecognito said:


> Those sales are great. But the 1143 pages read seems very low to me. I mentioned a while back having 10 sales on a book, 8000 pages read (it's longer than yours, but not six times as long)


Thanks for the quick response Indie InCognito. I suspected it should be higher also a few days ago and I sent Amazon an email questioning this but I didn't understand how to phrase my questions properly and they responded by raising my print page count from 179 pages up to 212 pages (this in the meta data the reader sees on the book page). They have sent me a form letter asking to respond yes or no if my issue was solved to my satisfaction and I am going to try and use that to get them to actually look at what I am asking them to address now that I understand how others here have approached them. I suspect they will blow me off but I will come back to this thread with Amazon's response


----------



## Going Incognito

Sailor Stone said:


> Some data for what it is worth and a question:
> I am a small fish in this discussion. But, I just put my first book in KU and did a promo launch 16 days ago. I have averaged 32 sales per day and 1143 pages read per day on a 295 KU page book. That averages to just under four book equivalents being read in KU per day so far. Is that number considered high, low, or about right for the amount of sales? Thanks.


There are authors who do get more sales than borrows, but the vast majority get waaaaay more borrows than sales. So 4 borrows for every 32 sales seems super super low.


----------



## Steven Kelliher

This whole situation just shows that Amazon has a massive issue when it comes to transparency. We literally have no access to their internal data and no way of knowing whether we're actually being compensated based on how many pages are read. 

Massive, massive problem that I doubt would hold up under legal scrutiny.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Um... People are reading in page flip. Just search Twitter. And those are just the people talking about it!

More than a few devices seem to open in page flip mode. It looks gorgeous and very readable. People are reading in it and we aren't getting paid.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Look- even Grannie is using it. And she uses that extra tap to get out of page-flip and bsck into regular reading mode.

We all know how lazy people are and how important one tap can be.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6fUKOadnt6g&feature=youtu.be


----------



## 75845

I wondered about Page Flip counting one page when its designed not to count any and then thought that it is to avoid a page count being missed as someone switches between reading mode and Page Flip (which of course is a reading mode to anyone with mid range eyesight and a mid range smartphone).

My judgement is that Kindle Direct Publishing are in breach of contract in relation to the KDP Select Program Terms and Conditions because it does not grants them permission to introduce software updates that prevent pages reads being recorded. I recommend writing your emails to KDP in legalese.


----------



## Steven Kelliher

Guys ... this page-flip thing is clearly a red herring. It's a way to explain away something they can't explain, which is the MASSIVE discrepancy in KENPC numbers this season.


----------



## Amanda Wolfe

I am another author affected. 

I have just one book in KU. So far it goes like this: last month the book had 24 sales and 2300 pages read. That is less than 100 pages read per 1 sale. The book itself is 200 pages. Before it all started I usually had 300 pages read per 1 sale. Flip is enabled, unfortunately. And I also noticed a few 1-page reads which never happened before.


----------



## LeonardDHilleyII

Going Incognito said:


> Even if page flip isn't everything, it def is A THING. If they fixed that, then we could see where we stood, and figure out the next fubar thing.
> There's no trust.
> I'm looking at a book with 1 page read. Hmmm. Page flip read?
> I'm looking at another with 25 pages read. Did one person get 25 pages in and stop? Or did 25 people read that book in page flip? No clue. No idea how many people borrowed it.
> I'm looking at one book with dead on 100 pages read now for two days. A perfect 100? Sure. Maybe. But since I can't trust anything at all, who knows?


I've been experiencing the same. Several days at 20-25 page reads on some books. Some with only 1 page read. Mine are full length novels. I had planned to release a new novel this month, which is a sequel. But with this problem, I'm not certain whether I should. Or if I do, skip KU and just go wide?


----------



## SparkWrite

David VanDyke said:


> Pass mine on. I've spoken with ECR before. I did a blog post on Teleread about this in which I tried out the page read test and it returned 1 page read. David (at) davidvandykeauthor.com. That's not my KDP sign-in email address, though.


Done. I just emailed the rep and included your email David and the other few I received from people who have some evidence they can share about this page flip= no page reads issue.

I also included the following KDP announcement in the email:

Posted By: kdpadmin
Created in: System: Global Announcement
Posted: Oct 12, 2016 4:07 PM
Page flip is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes.

I said how this is a huge concern to authors since readers are using page flip to read entire books and not just navigate through them, which means we aren't paid for pages read. I asked for info on how the issue is being addressed and how it'll be resolved.

I'll keep you all posted on anything I hear.


----------



## anonymous26

I'm the business partner of a top 100 KU author. . I've put together the data for the last three releases--all of which were ranked in the overall top 100:

Here's the data I have from the first 8 days of release for each.

June release:
KENPC: 314
SALES: 6666
PAGE READS: 1,386,871
Avg page reads/sale: 208

August release: 
KENPC: 305
SALES: 3506
PAGE READS: 681,438
Avg page reads/sale: 194

September release: 
KENPC: 383
SALES: 3086
PAGE READS: 509,465
Avg page reads/sale: 165

The difference in pages read per sale between the June and August releases is slight (around 6%)--and the June release had around 3% more pages so those numbers are fairly consistent. However the discrepancy between pages read per sale between the August and September releases is significant. We saw a 15% decrease in that number--meanwhile the September release had an almost 25% higher KENPC. The September release definitely did not reach the page reads we were expecting based on past data.

It's disconcerting to say the least. But we're equally worried about the new prime program. First they short us on page reads and now they make it impossible to get a good ranking in the store. The six Kindle first books were bad enough but if we're competing with a thousand books that can be downloaded by the millions then there is little hope of a successful book launch. Just check out the top 100.  This page read problem is well-timed because it is hiding another pink elephant in the room. 

The author I work with pulled all her books from other sites where she was always very successful. She talked her readers into getting the kindle app so they could enjoy her books for one low monthly subscription price but it looks as if the program is coming apart at the seams. At least for the authors.


----------



## NotAPenguin

It's definitely not a red herring. People are reading it in and the pages aren't counted. If your books have a high volume of borrows it's potentially a tremendous impact.

There may be other issues at hand but this is theft, plain and simple.

People are using page flip to read. These pages are not calculated. We do not get paid for them.


----------



## whitewitch

Has anyone with a sizable mailing list tried polling their subscribers about whether or not they have read an entire title in Page Flip? My mailing list is so small it wouldn't provide statistically valuable data, but maybe it's worth a try. Just a thought.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## CozyReads

doctorshevil said:


> If you look upthread, people who format in Vellum using a style that does caps drop at the beginning of a chapter, and/or who use ornamental breaks, are not seeing the Page Flip issue (yet) because Amazon hasn't enabled it for those formats. I happen to be one of those people. But I'm sure Zon are working on it, so at best it's only a temporary reprieve.


Another lurker who registered to provide input on this serious issue and say: probably not true. One of my Vellum-formatted ebooks with drop caps has several 1-page-read days in September/October and another Vellum-formatted ebook with drop caps has at least two 1-page-read days. Although I don't have proof that the single page is from page flip reading, I have to suspect that it is.


----------



## Going Incognito

whitewitch said:


> Has anyone with a sizable mailing list tried polling their subscribers about whether or not they have read an entire title in Page Flip? My mailing list is so small it wouldn't provide statistically valuable data, but maybe it's worth a try. Just a thought.


The few I've had contact with go, "What is this page flip thing you speak of?" Then, when explained, go, "Oh yeah, that! I hated it at first but it's too hard to get out of it, so I gave up and just started reading that way. I like it now, actually."


----------



## bobfrost

There are two forms of page-flip.

The basic form seems to work on any book.

Enhanced page flip only works on books that have enhanced typesetting. 

In both instances, books can be read with page-flip and don't generate pages-read within page-flip.

Some people are claiming their e-readers are opening books with enhanced typesetting directly into page-flip mode, and that they have to actually exit the mode to read normally. Books without enhanced typesetting open into regular reading mode, and have to be forced into the regular basic page-flip to utilize that feature. 

Using certain vellum templates seems to turn off enhanced typesetting, and that may limit the potential damage page-flip is doing to pages read.

But I still believe the amount of pages lost to page-flip are minimal regardless of formatting.


----------



## 75845

I've written again to KDP and declared breach of contract due to their 12 Oct 2016 admission that Page Flip does not count pages. I have earned zero (the norm for me) since my books auto-renewed so I am free to say goodbye. The breach is only in relation to Select Terms and Conditions, so I've told them I am freed from exclusivity as they ended the contract yesterday and I am merely accepting that their breach ended it. I have not separated my personal and business accounts, so just in case I've turned my Kindle to flight mode in case my account is completely cancelled once my books show up in iTunes and Nook. Being a mere gamete of a crustacean I can do this, but most of you probably cannot as you have a lot of monies due from KDP. 

There is little doubt, however, that KDP are in breach of contract. Imagine if they allowed you to purchase a new wide screen TV direct from your Fire Tablet and forgot to record the sales. You can guarantee that Samsung (the maker of the wide screen TV I use as a monitor) would sue for breach of contract and loss of sales.  

In my email to KDP support I explained that on Google Play I use their version of Page Flip to read as due to my disability a page swipe on a small smartphone is easier to handle (excuse the pun) than fingersmithing an invisible margin to turn the page. So reading by page flip is possible although I didn't know that that was what the recent update was changing. I'll continue to read via eInk as the buttons avoid the invisible ink margin problem.


----------



## tresero

bobfrost said:


> There are two forms of page-flip.
> 
> The basic form seems to work on any book.
> 
> Enhanced page flip only works on books that have enhanced typesetting.
> 
> In both instances, books can be read with page-flip and don't generate pages-read within page-flip.
> 
> Some people are claiming their e-readers are opening books with enhanced typesetting directly into page-flip mode, and that they have to actually exit the mode to read normally. Books without enhanced typesetting open into regular reading mode, and have to be forced into the regular basic page-flip to utilize that feature.
> 
> Using certain vellum templates seems to turn off enhanced typesetting, and that may limit the potential damage page-flip is doing to pages read.
> 
> But I still believe the amount of pages lost to page-flip are minimal regardless of formatting.


It has nothing to do with Vellum, they just happen to embed SVG files. I just did the same thing in Jutoh on my new release which tanked and enhanced typesetting is off.

I have a video on how to do it for Jutoh, it's quite simple, took me about 1 minute to add.

This is my site, and nothing's for sale, so hopefully it isn't against TOS to put this here.

http://indieauthorspot.com/articles/jutoh-page-flip-hack


----------



## pwtucker

Just so I can keep this straight, the main issues at play are:

1) Page Flip being used to read entire books without authors being compensated
2) Massive drop in KU reads (sometimes up to 90%) that may or may not be Page Flip related and mostly for books pubbed since Sept.
3) New Prime Program boosting 1000 books to the top of the charts greatly reducing the chances of a good launch

Do I have those right? Anything else?


----------



## Randall Wood

Boyd said:


> Authors and publishers are vendors in Amazon's online store. Authors are not employees of Amazon (Unless they are). If you click on accept of Amazon's TOS, I believe that makes it a breach to sue them as everything has to go through arbitration from my understanding.
> 
> So unionizing.. nope. I don't see that working. (Former Teamster here) Class action lawsuit? I don't see that happening. Now, I am not a lawyer, nor am I giving legal advice here. I've never even stayed in a Holiday Inn... so take this with a grain of salt.


I doubt Amazon fears the outcome of any lawsuit, but I imagine they would avoid anything coming close to a discovery session. Having the inner workings of KU out in the open for all to see? Not gonna happen.

I'm confident this will be fixed, its the when and how and to what degree the damage will be that remains to be seen.


----------



## pwtucker

Also, I wonder if it's worth inserting a page at the start of the novel asking readers not to read the book in Page Flip mode? Something like:

"Dear Reader, due to an ongoing problem with Amazon's Page Flip feature, any and all pages read in that mode will result in this author not getting paid. Thus I ask you to please not read the book in Page Flip, as I most earnestly desire the moneys."


----------



## 75845

I wonder if they have already been trying to fix this. iOS Kindle app was updated for bug fixes on 29th September and Android on 4th October, within the time frame of when Amazon began to publicly acknowledge publisher concerns (circa 23rd September) when you allow for quality control on the fixes. Although if you can believe the reviews on Google Play the quality in the quality control was somewhat lacking.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************.


----------



## whitewitch

Mercia McMahon said:


> iOS Kindle app was updated for bug fixes on 29th September and Android on 4th October


That's pretty amazing, actually. After a flatline for most of September, I received a huge spike on September 29/30th and another on October 4th, then it flatlined again. The "huge spike" was relative to my dismal September; it was still less than half of what I'd normally receive in pages read on an average day.

A new title went live yesterday and I have yet to receive a single page read from it, which is just not normal. I usually launch with at least 2-3,000 pages read on the first full day after publishing.

This is so discouraging.


----------



## Concerned_Author0202

Here's an easy copy/paste email to share with your author friends:

Open letter to authors in Kindle Unlimited:

You might not be aware, but last month, a number of indie authors who released books started noticing huge decreases in their numbers of KU page reads, as compared to previous releases. At first, we individually chalked it up to the time of year, or lower-performing books, but then we started comparing numbers and noticing a trend of depressed reads that was pretty tough to ignore.

Some people are noticing page reads that are up to 90% lower than their normal releases, which is a *MASSIVE* decrease. The extent of decrease to vary from author to author, and some are even noting huge drops in reads for older backlist books.

Obviously, none of us are engineers with knowledge of Amazon's inner workings, so we have no idea what could possibly be happening. Some people think there's a glitch that's causing page reads to tank; other people believe there's been some kind of fraud detection attempted that's catching honest readers and authors in its net.

Still other authors have pointed to the implementation of new Enhanced Typesetting and Page Flip as a potential issue. If you've never heard of Page Flip, here's a screenshot of what it looks like (http://imgur.com/08rCmxS).

Multiple authors have tested this for themselves (as noted on Kindle Boards), and found that if a reader reads using Page Flip and exits the app without clicking back to the normal setting at the end of the book, all of the pages read go unrecorded.

Yesterday, Amazon posted a public response on the Kindle Community Forums about the Page Flip issue:

_Some authors have asked questions about Page Flip's usage not counting towards page counts. Page Flip is a navigational tool. By design, using it for navigation does not count toward pages read. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior._

*By design*, Amazon is presenting the content of your books to readers and allowing the pages read on Page Flip to go unrecorded as read pages.

You read that correctly.

They're also assuring us that Page Flip is not being used for reading in any material way. How do they know whether it's being used for reading, if pages read aren't being recorded?

Is Page Flip causing all of the issues we're seeing?

We can't possibly know the answer to that question. Maybe there's one glitch; maybe there are a thousand glitches; maybe there are no glitches at all. Maybe this is a new system or algorithm Amazon has implemented. We have no idea.

*Here's what we do know. We know our data, and our page read trends since KU 2.0 was introduced. And we know what are "normal" reads for us, and what are not, based on data from prior releases.

*So, if you're seeing unusually decreased page reads, what can you do?

Authors have emailed Amazon and been given conflicting responses. As a result, many people have taken to Kindle Boards as a last resort to voice their concerns and compare experiences.

Kindle Boards is a public forum where authors are comparing notes when it comes to this issue. If you're noticing decreases in your page reads, *PLEASE *join the *PUBLIC* conversation! Let other authors know this is happening to you, too!

1.) You can create an *ANONYMOUS* account (it's a public forum) and join the conversation here - http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242225.0.html

2.) You can also poll your readers and ask them - are you using Page Flip to read my books?

3.) You can email Amazon if you're seeing unusual page read activity at [email protected] or [email protected]

Whatever you choose to do, please don't remain silent if you're seeing issues with your page reads!

This note is meant to be distributed. Please send this to your author friends, post on public and private forums, and ask them to join the conversation!


----------



## soyarma

Hey Folks;

I thought I'd add some data to the mix. I have had phenomenal page reads over Sept and thus far into Oct. They have been my best ever. However, none of my books have enhanced typesetting. I upload as word DOCX files that KDP converts for me. 

One of my boxsets has 0 sales and 5k reads today. No pageflip.

My wife's books have enhanced typesetting enabled and she definitely has lower page reads than I do. She's going to do some tests with a few of her books to see if re-uploading the way I do will disable enhanced typesetting and then see what happens to page reads.

I'll keep you posted.


----------



## Going Incognito

soyarma said:


> Hey Folks;
> 
> I thought I'd add some data to the mix. I have had phenomenal page reads over Sept and thus far into Oct. They have been my best ever. However, none of my books have enhanced typesetting. I upload as word DOCX files that KDP converts for me.
> 
> One of my boxsets has 0 sales and 5k reads today. No pageflip.
> 
> My wife's books have enhanced typesetting enabled and she definitely has lower page reads than I do. She's going to do some tests with a few of her books to see if re-uploading the way I do will disable enhanced typesetting and then see what happens to page reads.
> 
> I'll keep you posted.


Ugh, but how? I upload word .docx files that KDP converts for me, and every title I have IS enabled.


----------



## The 13th Doctor

I just uploaded a .docx file this afternoon and the pageflip and enhanced typesetting seem to be enabled, according to the product page.

(The book isn't in KU, I should add)


----------



## soyarma

Two things that come to mind is that I use Word's auto-em dash thing where you type two hyphens, then a word, then a space and it converts to a proper em-dash (I see a lot of books that still have -- in them). 

The other is that I do a thing for section breaks where I type a bunch of dashes and word converts it to a full width line. 

I'll do a bit of experimenting and see if I can pinpoint it.


----------



## KaraKing

I came in here to update... saw there were seven new pages on the thread, just got through it all and now I'm depressed and have a headache.  

I wanted to report that my rankings have finally gone back to normal, but my sales AND page reads are still way down!? It all looks like a downhill slope starting Sept 29th when I made those updates.

My KENPC counts have changed too! Didn't other posters earlier in the thread mention their KENPC count went down since this all started? This is the 2nd time they've lowered mine.   

****Please everyone go check your book's assigned KENPC count and see if your books have been lowered!!!*** *


----------



## dorihoxa

KaraKing said:


> I came in here to update... saw there were seven new pages on the thread, just got through it all and now I'm depressed and have a headache.
> 
> I wanted to report that my rankings have finally gone back to normal, but my sales AND page reads are still way down!? It all looks like a downhill slope starting Sept 29th when I made those updates.
> 
> My KENPC counts have changed too! Didn't other posters earlier in the thread mention their KENPC count went down since this all started? This is the 2nd time they've lowered mine.
> 
> ****Please everyone go check your book's assigned KENPC count and see if your books have been lowered!!!*** *


Mine haven't changed for any of my books. Pages still way down though


----------



## RuthNestvold

The KENPC numbers for my books haven't changed, but my pages read are still almost flatlined, with a few little blips here and there.


----------



## NotAPenguin

This is great, thanks. Passing this along!



Concerned_Author0202 said:



> Here's an easy copy/paste email to share with your author friends:
> 
> Open letter to authors in Kindle Unlimited:
> 
> You might not be aware, but last month, a number of indie authors who released books started noticing huge decreases in their numbers of KU page reads, as compared to previous releases. At first, we individually chalked it up to the time of year, or lower-performing books, but then we started comparing numbers and noticing a trend of depressed reads that was pretty tough to ignore.
> 
> Some people are noticing page reads that are up to 90% lower than their normal releases, which is a *MASSIVE* decrease. The extent of decrease to vary from author to author, and some are even noting huge drops in reads for older backlist books.
> 
> Obviously, none of us are engineers with knowledge of Amazon's inner workings, so we have no idea what could possibly be happening. Some people think there's a glitch that's causing page reads to tank; other people believe there's been some kind of fraud detection attempted that's catching honest readers and authors in its net.
> 
> Still other authors have pointed to the implementation of new Enhanced Typesetting and Page Flip as a potential issue. If you've never heard of Page Flip, here's a screenshot of what it looks like (http://imgur.com/08rCmxS).
> 
> Multiple authors have tested this for themselves (as noted on Kindle Boards), and found that if a reader reads using Page Flip and exits the app without clicking back to the normal setting at the end of the book, all of the pages read go unrecorded.
> 
> Yesterday, Amazon posted a public response on the Kindle Community Forums about the Page Flip issue:
> 
> _Some authors have asked questions about Page Flip's usage not counting towards page counts. Page Flip is a navigational tool. By design, using it for navigation does not count toward pages read. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior._
> 
> *By design*, Amazon is presenting the content of your books to readers and allowing the pages read on Page Flip to go unrecorded as read pages.
> 
> You read that correctly.
> 
> They're also assuring us that Page Flip is not being used for reading in any material way. How do they know whether it's being used for reading, if pages read aren't being recorded?
> 
> Is Page Flip causing all of the issues we're seeing?
> 
> We can't possibly know the answer to that question. Maybe there's one glitch; maybe there are a thousand glitches; maybe there are no glitches at all. Maybe this is a new system or algorithm Amazon has implemented. We have no idea.
> 
> *Here's what we do know. We know our data, and our page read trends since KU 2.0 was introduced. And we know what are "normal" reads for us, and what are not, based on data from prior releases.
> 
> *So, if you're seeing unusually decreased page reads, what can you do?
> 
> Authors have emailed Amazon and been given conflicting responses. As a result, many people have taken to Kindle Boards as a last resort to voice their concerns and compare experiences.
> 
> Kindle Boards is a public forum where authors are comparing notes when it comes to this issue. If you're noticing decreases in your page reads, *PLEASE *join the *PUBLIC* conversation! Let other authors know this is happening to you, too!
> 
> 1.) You can create an *ANONYMOUS* account (it's a public forum) and join the conversation here - http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242225.0.html
> 
> 2.) You can also poll your readers and ask them - are you using Page Flip to read my books?
> 
> 3.) You can email Amazon if you're seeing unusual page read activity at [email protected] or [email protected]
> 
> Whatever you choose to do, please don't remain silent if you're seeing issues with your page reads!
> 
> This note is meant to be distributed. Please send this to your author friends, post on public and private forums, and ask them to join the conversation!


----------



## 75845

My books are all exited early from Kindle Select. 3 days without response for a polite customer would you mind letting me go early. About 3 hours after turning formal and legal I got an Executive Customer Service apology for the delay, all books removed, and my Page Flip complaints referred upwards to the Business Team. They need to hire better relationship managers. Clearly the tech team are not talking to the business team who are not talking to the legal team. The outcome may have been different without that admission of Page Flip non reads being deliberate. I suspect the original version of that message bypassed the legal eagles eerie. 

Of course they can let me go easily because I sell nothing and I can safely return wide because my hope that all in at KU would kick start sales of my obscure little collection of books. So its back to not selling everywhere instead of just not selling at Amazon. Anyway I'm glad to be gone as exclusivity does not sit well with me and I have an odd fondness for the Smashwords Store.


----------



## jcalloway

Mercia McMahon said:


> My books are all exited early from Kindle Select. 3 days without response for a polite customer would you mind letting me go early. About 3 hours after turning formal and legal I got an Executive Customer Service apology for the delay, all books removed, and my Page Flip complaints referred upwards to the Business Team. They need to hire better relationship managers. Clearly the tech team are not talking to the business team who are not talking to the legal team. The outcome may have been different without that admission of Page Flip non reads being deliberate. I suspect the original version of that message bypassed the legal eagles eerie.
> 
> Of course they can let me go easily because I sell nothing and I can safely return wide because my hope that all in at KU would kick start sales of my obscure little collection of books. So its back to not selling everywhere instead of just not selling at Amazon. Anyway I'm glad to be gone as exclusivity does not sit well with me and I have an odd fondness for the Smashwords Store.


Mercia, did they let you go free without a smack on the wrist, or did they let you go but ban you from using Select in the future?


----------



## Cherise

jcalloway said:


> Not exactly. I format with Vellum.
> 
> Here's a book from yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have three more books just like it today.
> 
> I add ornament breaks in chapters to separate POV changes and use flourishes on numbered chapter pages, but no drop caps.
> 
> The book from the screengrabs hasn't been updated in any way in over a year (not even keyword or price changes). It used to pull in 2-5k page reads per day. It's dropped to almost nothing since July.


"To further clarify, Kindred and Meridian are just example styles. Currently, any use of one of Vellum's drop caps causes Enhanced Typesetting to be disabled, as does any use of one of Vellum's built-in images (for ornamental breaks, etc.). Making use of the About the Author Facebook/Twitter links, for example, is enough to cause Enhanced Typesetting to not be applied.

*Additionally, this is only the case if you upload the Kindle-specific mobi file, something we always recommend for best results. (For compatibility, the Generic EPUB file created by Vellum uses PNG images instead of SVG images, and PNG images work fine with Enhanced Typesetting.)*

Lastly, don't be surprised if, when you upload a Vellum-generated mobi file to KDP, the KDP Online Previewer times out on you. This is a months-long issue with the KDP Online Previewer, and doesn't mean there's a problem with your book. (Though we have an unverified hunch that it's also related to Enhanced Typesetting.)

Hope that helps." http://www.kboards.com/.../topic,242225.msg3380408.html...


----------



## Alarmcall

Hey, I'm new to the discussion but I've been lurking for 3 days now.

I'm an established author and I normally make $20-18k per month from my catalog all through legit means.

New releases normally do great but now as KaraKing mentioned BSR's are way WAY down. Like to the ground.

Normally a new release after 4 days would be at 3,500 BSR and now, it's sitting at 14k. And Page reads are ridiculously low sitting at like 30k when they used to do 50-60k per day.

I've emailed KDP and called. Still haven't heard back.

We are (mostly) all experiencing the same issue,and who the hell knows what's causing it.

But enough of the small talk, I have two things to add: 
1. Let's piggyback on the great post above by Concerned_Author0202 and put together an email template that every impacted author can use to email Amazon (again) that lays out *a)* what were are experiencing & *b)* a snap shot of how KENP's used to perform vs. now (Sept & Oct.)? 
Then we can each ping them daily until they respond with something that resembles a solution.

*Who's with me on this? * *Why let this energy go to waste? *

I'm happy to include the text I used as a first draft to get us rolling on this.

2. Are we all *too historical to notice* that tresero posted pretty thorough video of a possible solution IF in fact page flip/Enhanced Types setting is the cause of our pain? I just used the hack and am waiting for my updated book to appear in the store. Will post the results.

As an aside, I tried the page flip feature on my Kindle Whitepaper and, I'm telling you now, no one is reading a book using that Sh*t. The type is so tiny in the "birds eye view" you can't see a thing. Check it out here: https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=13632018011

So I think that, if anything, it's the "save your place" and "swipe away" Features, that's maybe causing the problem since you can totally read an entire book that way as one user already showed.


----------



## 75845

jcalloway said:


> Mercia, did they let you go free without a smack on the wrist, or did they let you go but ban you from using Select in the future?


Pure abject apology. There was not even the standard "you may not re-enter these books in KDP Select within the next 90 days." This is not the first time I've got out on breach of contract grounds. Last time I got out due to the All Stars promotion being launched just after I entered KU. On that occasion I did get the standard 90 day warning. I think they know they've screwed up legally and it is probably a case of ask no questions in case it becomes a legal case.


----------



## Cherise

anonymous26 said:


> But we're equally worried about *the new prime program*. First they short us on page reads and now they *make it impossible to get a good ranking in the store*. The six Kindle first books were bad enough but if *we're competing with a thousand books that can be downloaded by the millions* then there is *little hope of a successful book launch*. Just check out the top 100. This page read problem is well-timed because it is hiding another pink elephant in the room.


Eureka.

You're right.


----------



## Alarmcall

anonymous26 said:


> I'm the business partner of a top 100 KU author. . I've put together the data for the last three releases--all of which were ranked in the overall top 100:
> 
> Here's the data I have from the first 8 days of release for each.
> 
> June release:
> KENPC: 314
> SALES: 6666
> PAGE READS: 1,386,871
> Avg page reads/sale: 208
> 
> August release:
> KENPC: 305
> SALES: 3506
> PAGE READS: 681,438
> Avg page reads/sale: 194
> 
> September release:
> KENPC: 383
> SALES: 3086
> PAGE READS: 509,465
> Avg page reads/sale: 165
> 
> The difference in pages read per sale between the June and August releases is slight (around 6%)--and the June release had around 3% more pages so those numbers are fairly consistent. However the discrepancy between pages read per sale between the August and September releases is significant. We saw a 15% decrease in that number--meanwhile the September release had an almost 25% higher KENPC. The September release definitely did not reach the page reads we were expecting based on past data.
> 
> It's disconcerting to say the least. But we're equally worried about the new prime program. First they short us on page reads and now they make it impossible to get a good ranking in the store. The six Kindle first books were bad enough but if we're competing with a thousand books that can be downloaded by the millions then there is little hope of a successful book launch. Just check out the top 100. This page read problem is well-timed because it is hiding another pink elephant in the room.
> 
> The author I work with pulled all her books from other sites where she was always very successful. She talked her readers into getting the kindle app so they could enjoy her books for one low monthly subscription price but it looks as if the program is coming apart at the seams. At least for the authors.


Someone fill me in, what's the "new Prime Problem"?


----------



## RuthNestvold

I finally got a response from Amazon: 

Hello Ruth,

Thanks for providing these details.The business team audited our systems using the specific information you shared regarding pages read and sales and did not find any systematic issues impacting your results.

We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors.They are important inputs to how we continue to invent on behalf of our Kindle customers.

Best regards,

Jeremy Stoffel

I was always a big supporter of Amazon, but now they have lost me. I have unpublished the books I've had the biggest losses on, will send another email regarding breach of contract, and will go wide. I tried to pull my books politely, but so far no luck.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Their business team?

Is the business team qualified to diagnose technical issues? What if there's a problem in the system that's preventing reads from showing up at all, so they're unmeasured? How would the business team know that?



WasAnn said:


> If you're going to do an email template PLEASE make sure that it doesn't focus on only new releases. It's everyone, even if you only updated backmatter or touched your dashboard. For mine it was ALL the enhanced typeset ones. ALL of them, but ONLY them.


This is why I can't even fix my backmatter. My business is paralyzed and my readers are missing out. We definitely need to emphasize it.



Alarmcall said:


> Someone fill me in, what's the "new Prime Problem"?


Probably the new Prime Reads, a new program that's like an expanded KOLL.

Remember before KU, when there was KOLL?

Readers could borrow one book a month (Select books only) and authors were paid from the original Select fund, that's how it came to be in the first place. Back then a borrow was worth $2-3.

They're bringing something back- if you have Prime (the 79.99 a year thing that gives free shipping) you can borrow UNLIMITED titles from a smaller selection of books, without paying the $10 monthly fee.

Clear as mud?

Amazon has been approaching authors offering a flat fee for them to put a backlist book in this Prime Reads program. The author gets paid ones, users get unlimited downloads, whether they Prime sub or not.

Now, this problem we see could be related to *that*. Maybe Amazon is erroneously recording Kindle Unlimited borrows as Prime Reads borrows and not counting them towards our payout?


----------



## KelliWolfe

Selena_Kitt said:


> It's $99 now. And will likely go up another $10 when/if (conjecture but I suspect it's heading this direction) they roll all KDP books into Prime.


Possible. Or they could offer KU at a reduced rate for Prime members the way they announced they're doing with the new Music Unlimited ($7.99 / month instead of $9.99).


----------



## Yamila Abraham

tresero said:


> It has nothing to do with Vellum, they just happen to embed SVG files. I just did the same thing in Jutoh on my new release which tanked and enhanced typesetting is off.
> 
> I have a video on how to do it for Jutoh, it's quite simple, took me about 1 minute to add.
> 
> This is my site, and nothing's for sale, so hopefully it isn't against TOS to put this here.
> 
> http://indieauthorspot.com/articles/jutoh-page-flip-hack


Does this video show us how to use Jutoh to somehow disable the 'enhanced typesetting' problem that's causing us to lose our page reads? (Sorry, wasn't clear to me).


----------



## Anne Berkeley

I don't know whether to be relieved or upset that it's not just me. I emailed them twice and received the same cut and paste response. "Our system is reporting accurately." Bull-puckey. After having consistent page reads for close to a year and suddenly flatline at a big fat zero, I had/have a hard time believing it's coincidental.


----------



## tresero

Yamila Abraham said:


> Does this video show us how to use Jutoh to somehow disable the 'enhanced typesetting' problem that's causing us to lose our page reads? (Sorry, wasn't clear to me).


Yes


----------



## NoBlackHats

I have two cozy mysteries.  The first one is live and is showing Enhanced Typsetting is not enabled.  The second one, uploaded as a pre-order and going live on Sunday, shows ET is enabled, even though it is the same file type and was uploaded identically to the first book. 

Would love to know how to disable that...


----------



## 75845

Maybe its my imagination, but I think KDP are being very sneaky.

When I wrote my breach of contract email I am certain that the announcement was entitled 10/12 Update on KENPC Inquiries, but gave a post or update date of 13 October because they changed the wording today. Now it claims that it was posted 12 October, but the changed text remains.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## 75845

It may interest you to know that in September Amazon hit financial trouble in Japan because they were over generous with publishers when launching KU in that country. It launched in August and they began re-negotiating with publishers in September. KU is not a happy bunny at the moment.

https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/10/04/1441207/amazons-kindle-unlimited-is-a-victim-of-its-success-in-japan


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Oh my God. Are they screwing us on purpose? Did they set this up to force us all out so they can claim the program is healthy while authors exit all at once?


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Steven Kelliher

In the span of 24 hours, I went from an average of 900 pagereads per day for 7 weeks to ... check this, TWO pages read yesterday after a string of ZERO for two weeks. 

How does that make sense?


----------



## KelliWolfe

If Amazon wanted to kill KU, they'd just do it. They took a $170 million writedown on losses from the Fire Phone. Any losses they'd sustain from dropping KU would be a drop in the bucket compared to that.

I don't think Amazon is worried about Google or Apple at all. Neither of them have the volume of indie books available to make a subscription service appealing. Neither of them have the kind of store to use the subscription service as a loss leader the way that Amazon does. Neither of them has the sales volume to get better rates from the traditional publishers than Amazon.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

We wouldn't have to worry like this if they'd tell us something concrete. When are we going to get answers?


----------



## GeneDoucette

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Oh my God. Are they screwing us on purpose? Did they set this up to force us all out so they can claim the program is healthy while authors exit all at once?


what's the saying? never assume malice when stupidity is an equally good explanation?


----------



## PhilipColgate

I keep seeing this talk of a "union" of indie authors. Unions are for employees. Indies are, well, independent. The whole problem with KU is that you're a quasi employee of Amazon. The solution is to truly be independent and go wide. I've been debating it for months and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.


----------



## tresero

PhilipColgate said:


> I keep seeing this talk of a "union" of indie authors. Unions are for employees. Indies are, well, independent. The whole problem with KU is that you're a quasi employee of Amazon. The solution is to truly be independent and go wide. I've been debating it for months and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.


No you aren't. You're a vendor. Still no union though.


----------



## PhilipColgate

tresero said:


> No you aren't. You're a vendor. Still no union though.


Correct. That's why I put "quasi employee." Here's what I should have written: as a vendor, you become a de facto employee of Amazon by ONLY doing business with them. Therefore, why would you want a union to further limit your independence? As a vendor, it's one thing to have a single giant client and several smaller ones, but it's rarely a good idea to have ONLY one client, regardless of how much of a whale it is.


----------



## 75845

PhilipColgate said:


> I keep seeing this talk of a "union" of indie authors. Unions are for employees. Indies are, well, independent. The whole problem with KU is that you're a quasi employee of Amazon. The solution is to truly be independent and go wide. I've been debating it for months and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.


Your comment made me realise that a UK author exclusive to Amazon and with no other author related earnings would be considered under law as an Amazon employee and print earnings from CreateSpace would not change the situation. Under tax law a freelancer must have more than one client. Fortunately they changed the company law system to make it more advantageous to become an employee of your own company (as sole shareholder, sole director, and sole employee).


----------



## PhilipColgate

Mercia McMahon said:


> Your comment made me realise that a UK author exclusive to Amazon and with no other author related earnings would be considered under law as an Amazon employee and print earnings from CreateSpace would not change the situation. Under tax law a freelancer must have more than one client. Fortunately they changed the company law system to make it more advantageous to become an employee of your own company (as sole shareholder, sole director, and sole employee).


That's interesting. I don't know anything about UK law. I'm an American lawyer (please don't hold it against me).


----------



## Nothing To See

PhilipColgate said:


> Here's what I should have written: as a vendor, you become a de facto employee of Amazon by ONLY doing business with them.


So if we're in KU and exclusive to Amazon, only doing business with them (at least for e-books), are you saying that we're de-facto employees of Amazon and no longer simply vendors? In a legal sense, I mean?


----------



## bobfrost

emilycantore said:


> Remember when Amazon said we'd get some crazy high figure per page?
> 
> Currently we've been getting $0.0046-0.0048.
> 
> A 50% drop in page reads, while keeping the same size pot starts to push that per page rate up to $0.001.


What? No it doesn't...

50% drop in page reads with the same size pot would push the per-page rate up to just a little shy of one penny per page (about 0.009).

If that happened, our overall pages would be less, but the climb in income would make up for it. It would make pages-read in September and October worth twice their August values and our income would raise to the amounts we expected to be earning.

One of the big problems with September and October speculation is we're all assuming the rate is 0.0045 per page as it was in August. A substantial raise to that rate would largely mitigate or even erase the perceived income decline that we've seen. However, given Amazon's history of frequent and fairly steady declining per-page rate, it is difficult to imagine them reversing course by any such wide margin.


----------



## PhilipColgate

Nothing To See said:


> So if we're in KU and exclusive to Amazon, only doing business with them (at least for e-books), are you saying that we're de-facto employees of Amazon and no longer simply vendors? In a legal sense, I mean?


No. LEGALLY, we're still vendors. But FACTUALLY, we behave like employees on a variety of fronts. First, we rely solely on Amazon to distribute our products and determine our income. Second, we signed their Terms of Service without negotiating any of its terms. I've read every word and, not surprising, it's written as broadly and favorably to Amazon as anyone can imagine. They can essentially ban, block, or screw any us over for any vague reason they see fit. Third, we drastically change our products to meet Amazon's strict standards and pricing.

I'm not trying to open a new can of worms. I'm just pointing out that it's not very "indie" to be all-in at Amazon. They consistently screw over authors. They market Kindles to customers with, among other things, boasting that there are over a million books in KU and something like a million books priced at $2.99 or less. In other words, hey we have indie slaves turning out cheapo content for you, sign up. What do we get in exchange for this huge value we add to their book business? A half cent per page read WHEN they decide to correctly calculate it or if they don't flip out and band or suspend us for something vague. They don't even have a 1-800 number to call for customer service for authors. Just stop and think about that for a second. You can Google just about any business and pick up the phone and call them. Amazon says to us, "Keep writing but never call us." Email them 10 times and receive 10 different answers from customer service reps in third world countries.

When I started publishing a year ago (almost to the day), I was so happy to be published that I didn't care. Now I've researched and I care.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

The rate for September will be between .0046 and .0048.

You know why they don't tell us the fund amount until after sales reports release? Because they decide what the rate is going to be and then make up a number to justify it.

Page reads will be increased from August to September, too.

They already told us as much. The announcement they made said they'll increase the fund again and the "problem" (it'd be nice if they tell us what it is) only affected 2% of reads.

That's their corporate line. There will be no surprise tomorow, where reads went down 50% from the previous month and they just decided to rebalance the system without telling us.

The question is, does this look like a 2% drop?


----------



## LadyStarlight

I think if the page rate doesn't go up in the reports tomorrow or over the weekend, then it's time for us to stop talking and band together to take legal action. There is no way that page reads were down for that many people and it not be reflected in the overall pot. NONE. 


Time for a lawsuit, if nothing else to shine a light on this issue.


----------



## Hope

katygirl said:


> How do you do this? Unpublish the current listing and create a completely new listing with the same content?
> 
> On 10/5 I released the third book in a series that has been selling moderately well for me. The first two books have stuck in the ranks from 8,00-20,000 for a couple of months and I thought for sure book three would do just as well. I've had very few sales and fewer page reads on it though. Rank is high, in the 80,000's. On 10/5, I borrowed the book and read through it. I thought the page reads registered, but I realized this morning that the banner that normally appears on the product page telling you the date you bought/borrowed a book was missing from this one. So I borrowed it again, and now there's a banner saying I borrowed it today, 10/10. It did open on the last page, so maybe the original page reads did register on the 5th. But I paged through the whole thing again a couple of hours ago just to see, but haven't seen any page reads on my report yet.
> 
> I know it could just be a dud of a book...
> 
> Edited to add: As soon as I released book 3, books 1 &2 dropped to the mid 40,000's in rank and stayed there until late last night. They are starting to recover today, but still aren't back at where they were.


I wrote the above on 10/10. As of 10/11, things began to recover. Yesterday and today I've had a lot more page reads. my new release had topped out at a rank of 104,000, and now all three books are sitting around 14,000. Today is the best earnings day I've ever had. Page reads for y new release are now matching the page reads of book 2. I had days of 0 or less than 100 on it before.

A few pages back, someone else noted that starting on 10/11, she saw a lot of page reads and it was continuing through today. She said the pages reads were for a book she had unpublished the first week of September. Sorry, I don't remember who posted that.

I wonder if they are slowly rolling out some kind of fix but don't want to say so because they don't want to admit they messed things up? Maybe this is a fluke of some sort? I don't know. These are the first books that I've had that have sold, so I don't have a long history to look back on, but I really feel like something went wrong with my new release. I don't know. I hope it continues and I hope it extends to everyone else.


----------



## tresero

katygirl said:


> I wrote the above on 10/10. As of 10/11, things began to recover. Yesterday and today I've had a lot more page reads. my new release had topped out at a rank of 104,000, and now all three books are sitting around 14,000. Today is the best earnings day I've ever had. Page reads for y new release are now matching the page reads of book 2. I had days of 0 or less than 100 on it before.
> 
> A few pages back, someone else noted that starting on 10/11, she saw a lot of page reads and it was continuing through today. She said the pages reads were for a book she had unpublished the first week of September. Sorry, I don't remember who posted that.
> 
> I wonder if they are slowly rolling out some kind of fix but don't want to say so because they don't want to admit they messed things up? Maybe this is a fluke of some sort? I don't know. These are the first books that I've had that have sold, so I don't have a long history to look back on, but I really feel like something went wrong with my new release. I don't know. I hope it continues and I hope it extends to everyone else.


My page reads are still down 35% or so closer to 50%. Not a single adjustment for Sept. I average close to or over 5 figures a month. It's impossible to lose that many page reads. Average reviews 4.7. Many with well over 100 verified.


----------



## Hope

tresero said:


> My page reads are still down 35% or so closer to 50%. Not a single adjustment for Sept. I average close to or over 5 figures a month. It's impossible to lose that many page reads. Average reviews 4.7. Many with well over 100 verified.


I'm sorry. I don't know what I'd do if that were me. I hope this all ends very soon for everyone. Amazon's lack of response is unconscionable.


----------



## Nic

PhilipColgate said:


> No. LEGALLY, we're still vendors. But FACTUALLY, we behave like employees on a variety of fronts.


Side note: there are several countries in the EU which define this status quo as being "pseudo self-employed" and they demand of the employer (here Amazon) that they pay regular, work-typical wages, health and work benefits, and of course also taxes. Legally and lawfully so.


----------



## Mari Oliver

NotAPenguin said:


> It's definitely not a red herring. People are reading it in and the pages aren't counted. If your books have a high volume of borrows it's potentially a tremendous impact.
> 
> There may be other issues at hand but this is theft, plain and simple.
> 
> People are using page flip to read. These pages are not calculated. We do not get paid for them.


FYI...I've tried turning the page flip off on my tablet and it's not possible. Tapping on the screen to get out of it makes the page really small and the font unreadable. Some books have it, some don't. I've read 3 books in the past 2 weeks that all have the page flip. There is no way to get rid of it for me, which sucks because it's annoying. I don't have books in KU, but figured I'd post here for the rest of you so that you're aware some e-readers can't turn off the page flips. With all of these problems, I'll definitely be going wide when I'm finally ready to publish.


----------



## RedAlert

Bypass the minions and email Jeff.  Not that I think that he deals with emails personally.  But, might as well.  You can't really say that Amazon is helping you in any way.

The Union idea won't work, IMO.  Have to make the hard decision whether to leave KDP Select because of lost income.  It is incredible that Amazon would admit that they designed a component to deliberately not count pages that so impacts an author's income.  This is in the face of multiple people stating that they read in page flip mode.

Page Flip is just one thing that authors very smartly (kudos to all of you) figured out for Amazon.  It just makes you want to vomit to read that they know it doesn't count correctly, and that there is an "negligible" impact, just not to THEIR bottom line.  I think that if they owed me one red cent, I'd want them to pay it to me.  It's not for them to say it isn't important.  Really, that attitude reeks.

But, I also believe that there are other issues.  Anything from software updates to viruses to new apps could be wreaking havoc.  There are viruses out there that have truly created a nightmare scenario for businesses to deal with.  Or, Amazon is just fiddling about in prep for Prime Read.  The big mystery is why people are seeing this seesawing back and forth with their page reads.

Assuming that everybody here told the truth, one thing seems clear:  representatives are not on the same page.  Each level has a different script.  Each person tells the part that they know, which is secretive and designed just to answer you and provide customer service without really helping you.  And they can't really help you, anyway, because they have to fix the overall problem, which a minion can't do.  Especially when they deny there is a problem anyway.

It is so disheartening.  Why Amazon would damage itself so in quest of...what?

Email Jeff.  A few hundred thousand emails on Page Flip might get noticed in his box.  Subject line:  "Page Flop."  (That was a good one!)


----------



## KerryT2012

I am adding my numbers too for consideration. I sent them to ECR Support and [email protected] and I have only had a phone call with Dan Slater and a copy and paste response from IT:


Amazon	
Your Account	Amazon.com
Message From Customer Service
Hello,

We'll need a little time to look into your KENPC concerns. I've reached out to our Technical Team to investigate this issue and we’ll contact you with more information as soon as we hear back from them.

Thanks for your patience.

Best regards,
Jeremy Stoffel
Thank you.
Amazon.com



I released two books this year. 
Book 1 in the series on the 24th May 2016. The sales and page reads were as follows:
05/25/2016 - Sales - 56 - Page Reads - 8,726
05/26/2016 - Sales - 70 - Page Reads - 7,801
05/27/2016 - Sales - 147 - Page Reads - 12,784

Book 2 in the same series was released on the 14th August 2016. The sales and page reads were as follows:
08/15/2016 - Sales - 46 - Page Reads - 4,405
08/16/2016 - Sales - 18- Page Reads - 3,004
08/17/2016 - Sales - 13 - Page Reads - 2,098

The second book is nearly half of the sales from Book 1, which I found strange seeing as people were lined up to read book 2. And to make matters worse, I spent more money on promotions for book2, than I did for book 1. Which made me feel as if I was paying Amazon to publish, I wish I could afford to throw money away. I just can't. I am just stuck at the moment, because there is no money in this business. I am paying Amazon and the other promotional sites, for nothing!


----------



## jason2505

Wow, my pages read have hit their lowest point for month. I didn't change anything with my ads or promotions, I even published more books. This is so dissapointing. Especially the way amazon deals with it. Although page flip may not be the only or main issue for this - today I bought a book and read it on my iPhone with page flip. It's a comfortable way to read in my opinion. The statement that amazon doesn't count pages read this way BY DESIGN is a slap in the face. Nothing else.


----------



## KaiW

Just a thought, but might this be Zon's way of dealing with the voracious romance reader subscriber issue? One other subscription model (Scribd I think?) pulled romance from the subscription programme as it was costing them too much & got a lot of public flack over it. Perhaps this is Amazon's v sneaky way of culling these authors privately ...


----------



## soyarma

After reporting yesterday that my books do not have enhanced typesetting, and sales are fine, I realized that my 3rd book does have enhanced typesetting. I reviewed its page reads and found that it has nearly identical page reads to my second book. For me, at least, it seems like page flip is not harming my reads on this book. 

My wife also released an omnibus of one of her trilogies yesterday and it got 1700 page reads with no targeted ads, just discovery. It has enhanced typesetting turned on.


----------



## 75845

In the world of Big Tech the modus operandi is to deny there is a problem until the fix is already written. Note what the earliest contributions from KDP was: "There was a problem for 0.2% and we've fixed it." Then "There was a problem for 2% and we've fixed it." At the same time updates for the Kindle app were being prepared for iOS (released 29 Sept) and Android (released 4 Oct). The public answers appears as "Page Flip is nothing to do with this," but that often translates in Big Tech as "Page Flip has everything to do with this, but all you want is the system fixed so you don't need to know information that could be used to sue us." The biggest problem is that Big Tech is notoriously bad at fixing things and very good at avoiding responsibility (and taxes).


----------



## RuthNestvold

YAY! After my angry email yesterday, Amazon finally wrote back, releasing my books from KDP Select. No more sales for half a cent each!


----------



## NotAPenguin

Someone in another forum posted how they tested reading their own book and at the end they flipped back to the middle and only the first half of the book counted. So if any scrolling backwards counts against you when you close the book that could be the other piece of the puzzle.

That being said, Page flip is definitely contributing to the issue. More and more readers are saying they can't get OUT of page flip and have no choice but to read this way.


----------



## dorihoxa

Just received a newsletter from Mark Dawson. He is seeing weird reports, too. He advises no to worry because "like everyhting else, this will pass, too" but it's getting really hard not to freak out


----------



## stoney

TwistedTales said:


> Yes, some people in the Prime beta were paid nothing. They were told it _would be good exposure_.


*That* should make any freelancer cringe and run the other way.



dorihoxa said:


> Just received a newsletter from Mark Dawson. He is seeing weird reports, too. He advises no to worry because "like everyhting else, this will pass, too" but it's getting really hard not to freak out


Sadly, some authors have to pay their bills and when their income gets slashed to the degree that many have? Wait and see is hard to put on the table for dinner.


----------



## Chrissy

TwistedTales said:


> Whether this loss of pages read is due to "page flip" or some other redefining of what Amazon call a page read is unknown. *To not pay me for pages read by simply redefining what that means is outright dishonest.*
> 
> I suspect Amazon are deliberately lowering KU earnings. I think eventually they'll offer everyone the option of being invited into Prime. For the most part the author will be paid nothing. Yes, some people in the Prime beta were paid nothing. They were told it would be good exposure. The problem with that logic is that *once the Prime reader has access to more free books then they'll be far less inclined to ever pay for one, so the "exposure" will be worthless.*
> 
> Amazon executives have been set the objective to increase profit. That means their bonuses and promotions are tied to reducing costs. Although you might not think KU costs much, a company is like a military outfit. The top send orders from on high and they go all way down to a team leader with five staff. Every single level will look to cut any costs they can. KDP and KU are not immune. Unfortunately, due to their previous targets, *Amazon management have almost no experience in maximizing profit while maintaining the loyalty of their customer and supplier base. It's why this "secret" KU3.0 has been delivered so badly.*
> 
> How do you argue with a company that holds all of the cards and then decides to cheat?
> 
> Of the hundred or more companies I've worked with at a senior level, those that became high handed and arrogant are now out of business, struggling or average. Why? Because a company is made up of its wider ecosystem. *Without the goodwill of suppliers, partners, alliances, customers, and even competitors, a company will fail. Amazon are making enemies and that'll be what takes them down.* One day when they're vulnerable everyone will wipe them out, even if it's simply by not doing anything to help them.
> 
> In the meantime, we have an arrogant distributor who think they can do whatever they want. The only way to deal with arrogance is to be equally as rude back. That means, *Amazon, I'm not interested in your KU model.* I won't be getting "exposure" through your lousy Prime offer either. I'll spend my good money on selling my books anywhere I can through hardcore advertising because in this world sales are king.
> 
> Of course, you have to look at the other side of this equation. For authors, one way or another, some will earn a lot less. Just because a certain level of earnings were achievable under one model doesn't mean that once it changes those earnings can be retained. That's the risk of playing in some else's sewer.
> 
> *I won't waste any time trying to bring Amazon to account.* They're right in that I don't have the levers, plus it would redirect my energy away from creating good books. And that's the real future. *Good books will always sell* to varying amounts. I don't write to market. I don't write romance/erotica. I don't give away books or even discount them, so many of my readers are payers.
> 
> While I wait for my KU books to roll out I'll build a plan to go wide. *I can't be wasting my time arguing with a company that won't listen to me for a whole pile of reasons I can't change*. So, unless there's a good explanation on its way to us, which I seriously doubt, it's time to move on.


+1000!


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## katrina46

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> The rate for September will be between .0046 and .0048.
> 
> You know why they don't tell us the fund amount until after sales reports release? Because they decide what the rate is going to be and then make up a number to justify it.
> 
> Page reads will be increased from August to September, too.
> 
> They already told us as much. The announcement they made said they'll increase the fund again and the "problem" (it'd be nice if they tell us what it is) only affected 2% of reads.
> 
> That's their corporate line. There will be no surprise tomorow, where reads went down 50% from the previous month and they just decided to rebalance the system without telling us.
> 
> The question is, does this look like a 2% drop?


I'd say it's more than 2% since these boards only represent a fraction of writers effected. Not everyone posts here. Not every one shares their info. But we did trust people who expect us to put our careers solely in their hands when they won't even tell us how many borrows our own books get. What did we expect and why are we so surprised?


----------



## Nothing To See

dorihoxa said:


> Just received a newsletter from Mark Dawson. He is seeing weird reports, too. He advises no to worry because "like everyhting else, this will pass, too" but it's getting really hard not to freak out


Mark Dawson is seeing unusual reporting, too?

Well, it's not going to pass unless Amazon fixes it, so, uh....


----------



## raminar_dixon

I can confidently say that if this issue isn't resolved soon then I'm out of KU. Why would I stay if pagereads aren't being recorded properly? It was bad enough that we didn't get the borrow data so we knew how far customers read, if they quit reading after chapter 1, etc. Now it seems we have wholly unreliable reporting information that the business division claims is working just fine.

Uh..._no_.


----------



## Nothing To See

raminar_dixon said:


> I can confidently say that if this issue isn't resolved soon then I'm out of KU. Why would I stay if pagereads aren't being recorded properly? It was bad enough that we didn't get the borrow data so we knew how far customers read, if they quit reading after chapter 1, etc. Now it seems we have wholly unreliable reporting information that the business division claims is working just fine.
> 
> Uh..._no_.


Maybe it is working just fine. You know, not recording pages read *by design*.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Nothing To See said:


> Maybe it is working just fine. You know, not recording pages read *by design*.


I wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## KelliWolfe

raminar_dixon said:


> I can confidently say that if this issue isn't resolved soon then I'm out of KU. Why would I stay if pagereads aren't being recorded properly? It was bad enough that we didn't get the borrow data so we knew how far customers read, if they quit reading after chapter 1, etc. Now it seems we have wholly unreliable reporting information that the business division claims is working just fine.
> 
> Uh..._no_.


The problem with this is that Amazon has never had the capability to properly record page reads. They've never been able to do more than give an estimate based on the "last position read" information returned by the readers' devices/apps. This is what enabled so much cheating with stuffing in "bonus" content then putting a link directly to the back of the book. Given that they built KU 2.0 on the assurances that they could do something that it's been proven time and again that they cannot, a situation like this was inevitable. And they'll keep having problems, and the blatant scamming will continue, until they implement a system that can accurately count and page reads as they claimed that they could 16 months ago.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

KelliWolfe said:


> The problem with this is that Amazon has never had the capability to properly record page reads. They've never been able to do more than give an estimate based on the "last position read" information returned by the readers' devices/apps. This is what enabled so much cheating with stuffing in "bonus" content then putting a link directly to the back of the book. Given that they built KU 2.0 on the assurances that they could do something that it's been proven time and again that they cannot, a situation like this was inevitable. And they'll keep having problems, and the blatant scamming will continue, until they implement a system that can accurately count and page reads as they claimed that they could 16 months ago.


So anything they change about Kindles that touches on how they record the last position read could be breaking the system?

When are they going to tell us something concrete about this?


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

One thing we should all think about imho... *can one company really support and sustain an entire industry indefinitely?*. Because that's the situation right now. Amazon has become the sole source of income for a majority of indie authors. That means when something goes wrong at Amazon an entire profession is endangered. Like it or not Amazon is currently a huge publishing monopoly.

So when they fix this problem (and they will) what's next? Do we all just go back into KU and forget this ever happened? Or are folks planning back up strategies for the next (and possibly much worse) disruption?


----------



## Thetis

A few others have noted this and I'll add my experience with this enhanced typesetting feature here as well.

I use Vellum for all of my books. While not all have drop caps, most have ornamental breaks, and therefore, do not have enhanced typesetting enabled.

They were still affected by this KU page read disaster. Some books registered the single page read even without enhanced typesetting. Before we realized there was a reporting issue, I assumed there must be someone picking up this book (which doesn't sell well anyway), opening it, deciding they didn't want to read it, and never going back to it. That would be an odd thing to do considering a reader can preview the first two chapters of the book... so when it became a pattern, I began to suspect there was a much bigger issue than readers not bothering to check out the preview.

I'm not convinced the enhanced typesetting has anything to do with the reporting errors since it affected most of my titles, and they all have it disabled.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> So anything they change about Kindles that touches on how they record the last position read could be breaking the system?
> 
> When are they going to tell us something concrete about this?


Lots of things could be breaking the system. It doesn't even have to directly be related to how they record the last position read. They could have made a change to the server code that accepts incoming data from the reader devices/apps and introduced a bug. So the server receives a "last position read" message from a given device. It then has to parse out that last postion as a number from the rest of the message. It's entirely possible to screw that parsing code up so that it inadvertently strips off the top digit, so if the real last position received was 3197, it would only send 197 to the database. There are a million different ways to screw this up, and it doesn't have to be anything obvious.

And Amazon is *never* going to tell us anything concrete about what broke. Ever. The data is gone. It's not retrievable. If they told us what broke, they'd leave themselves open to financial liability that they're not going to risk. They will fudge the numbers on the page reads of the people who complain the loudest, likely based on their historical page read data from what we've seen people reporting so far (which has ignored new releases and thus shows that it's them screwing around rather than fixing the problem), while ignoring the people who don't complain directly. This is the same way that they handle common problems like claims of plagiarism and such. They deny responsibility and do that absolute minimum that they have to do to make individual problems go away.


----------



## writemore

Thetis said:


> A few others have noted this and I'll add my experience with this enhanced typesetting feature here as well.
> 
> I use Vellum for all of my books. While not all have drop caps, most have ornamental breaks, and therefore, do not have enhanced typesetting enabled.
> 
> They were still affected by this KU page read disaster. Some books registered the single page read even without enhanced typesetting. Before we realized there was a reporting issue, I assumed there must be someone picking up this book (which doesn't sell well anyway), opening it, deciding they didn't want to read it, and never going back to it. That would be an odd thing to do considering a reader can preview the first two chapters of the book... so when it became a pattern, I began to suspect there was a much bigger issue than readers not bothering to check out the preview.
> 
> I'm not convinced the enhanced typesetting has anything to do with the reporting errors since it affected most of my titles, and they all have it disabled.


Same. I agree, it doesn't have anything to do with the enhanced typesetting.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## raminar_dixon

Gentleman Zombie said:


> One thing we should all think about imho... *can one company really support and sustain an entire industry indefinitely?*. Because that's the situation right now. Amazon has become the sole source of income for a majority of indie authors. That means when something goes wrong at Amazon an entire profession is endangered. Like it or not Amazon is currently a huge publishing monopoly.
> 
> So when they fix this problem (and they will) what's next? Do we all just go back into KU and forget this ever happened? Or are folks planning back up strategies for the next (and possibly much worse) disruption?


I'm going to follow the money. Wherever I can sell my books and make the most money is where I'll be. I won't forget what happened, though. Just like I haven't forgotten all the other changes they made over the years that weren't exactly helping to put money in my pocket. Those negative changes pale in comparison, in my eyes at least, to the near-total lack of responsiveness or any reasonable attempt at competition being offered by other retailers. Amazon beat them all like redheaded stepchildren, or so the ancient proverb says.

At any rate, I learned a few years ago not to depend on one retailer for anything, so now, whatever Amazon does or doesn't do won't blow my life apart at the seams. This resistance to their (or any other company's) shenanigans also probably has a lot to do with my lifestyle and the other important choices I made along the way. Suffice to say, I'm good even if people around the world decide to stop reading books tomorrow.

So, will I go back to them/KU?

Yeah. I've made a metric buttload of money with KU since it started. If Amazon resolves this issue to my satisfaction, I'll keep using the program. It might have some problems, and it certainly isn't perfect for a variety of reasons (like this lovely long thread illustrates), but when it works, _it works_. Plus, I personally feel that the model of companies paying content creators for views, pagereads, downloads, etc. as customers use them is going to be the future for some time to come. Doesn't mean I have to like it, and I kinda don't...but it would not surprise me at all if one day physical paper books are the only thing authors get paid for sales on and virtually all digital content is paid similarly to the way it is handled with Netflix, KU, and others.

If they don't address this issue, then there's no need to stick around, is there? The money won't be there for me, or for many other authors just based on the responses here and on other forums. I'm not going to sit back and not get paid what I'm supposed to be paid while Amazon profits off my content. My time is worth way more than that.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## KelliWolfe

Atlantisatheart said:


> If they fix it and pay what they owe then I'll keep my most profitable series in there for now - but I have two pen names and I'll be moving the second one wide - my main pen name has a new series, already written and mainly full length novels rather than novellas, that I was planning to launch at Christmas I will now be taking that wide. I can't afford to keep all of my eggs in Amazon's basket, not after this fubar.
> 
> For me, I think it's not even that they've had problems - if we knew they were working on it and we knew they were going to pay what they owe then that's fair enough, but it's the whole denial, outright lies, and silence thing that has forged a lack of faith in the company to do the right thing. I also don't like that they've gone ahead an implemented a programme designed not to capture page reads, breaching their contract with us, and stealing our royalties, because that's what it is - theft of intellectual property that they've admitted they aren't going to pay us for - that's piracy, and wait until that hits the mainstream media. First they don'y pay their taxes and now they are pirates - the press should have a field day with that.


Amazon has been behaving like this as long as KDP has been around. Report a book as plagiarized. First they deny, then they deny that they're responsible, then if you finally get them to take the book down they do not compensate you, the original content producer, for the sales made of your work. Nor do they refund the money to the person who purchased the plagiarized material. *They keep the money themselves.*, including whatever royalty payments they are able to claw back from the plagiarist. This is why they don't work harder to fight piracy on the site. There's no percentage in it for them to do so. They keep the money, and the customer is happy. That's all they care about.


----------



## NotAPenguin

That's just it though. We need to get the press involved. Tweet, blog and generally not shut up about it.  I've seen some people on Twitter tweeying directly to @kdpamazon  but very few. It's going to take more than that to get their attention.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

KelliWolfe said:


> Amazon has been behaving like this as long as KDP has been around. Report a book as plagiarized. First they deny, then they deny that they're responsible, then if you finally get them to take the book down they do not compensate you, the original content producer, for the sales made of your work. Nor do they refund the money to the person who purchased the plagiarized material. *They keep the money themselves.*, including whatever royalty payments they are able to claw back from the plagiarist. This is why they don't work harder to fight piracy on the site. There's no percentage in it for them to do so. They keep the money, and the customer is happy. That's all they care about.


Even if they "pay us back" how do we trust it?

First they tell us .2%, then 2%, and they had to be badgered into finally admitting that PageFlip displays our content and we don't get paid for it. They designed it that way.

Anybody get their September report yet?


----------



## katrina46

NotAPenguin said:


> That's just it though. We need to get the press involved. Tweet, blog and generally not shut up about it. I've seen some people on Twitter tweeying directly to @kdpamazon but very few. It's going to take more than that to get their attention.


Someone or a lot of writers could send this to the same guy who quoted kboard members in the KU thread a couple of years ago. This one is way more newsworthy. The biggest book retailer on the planet not pay authors properly. I'd write about it.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Tinfoil hat time. The reason they don't report borrows (even though they were doing so for KU 1.0 and there's absolutely no good reason not to) is because they've been drastically under-reporting page reads all along, and they don't want us to know how bad it is. They're in full panic mode now, which is why they're letting people out of KU and apologizing when they do it, because this is a big enough problem that it has the potential to expose the page-reads mishandling that's been going on for almost a year and a half.

Remember how their first response back at the very start of the topic was to start talking about their legal department when people emailed to find out what was going on? When have they ever done that for any kind of reporting issue or glitch before?


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

KelliWolfe said:


> Tinfoil hat time. The reason they don't report borrows (even though they were doing so for KU 1.0 and there's absolutely no good reason not to)


They only reported when the reader reached the 10% mark. Even then we never knew exactly how many readers were borrowing our books and not reaching that threshold.


----------



## KelliWolfe

SevenDays said:


> They only reported when the reader reached the 10% mark. Even then we never knew exactly how many readers were borrowing our books and not reaching that threshold.


True. But the borrow is recorded to affect rankings immediately, whether the borrower ever opens the book or not. So the data is available and being used, it just isn't being made available to us. Why not? Why hide it? It's a useful metric, and no different than reporting on the number of free downloads we get, which aren't tied to any financial transaction either.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

KelliWolfe said:


> True. But the borrow is recorded to affect rankings immediately, whether the borrower ever opens the book or not. So the data is available and being used, it just isn't being made available to us. Why not? Why hide it? It's a useful metric, and no different than reporting on the number of free downloads we get, which aren't tied to any financial transaction either.


That's a really good point.


----------



## Nothing To See

KelliWolfe said:


> Remember how their first response back at the very start of the topic was to start talking about their legal department when people emailed to find out what was going on? When have they ever done that for any kind of reporting issue or glitch before?


Well, if I said I'd pay us for pages read, but launched a new feature that presents content to readers while allowing for page reads to go unrecorded, I'd talk to legal, too.



NotAPenguin said:


> That's just it though. We need to get the press involved. Tweet, blog and generally not shut up about it.


There have been a LOT of people talking about it on Facebook - authors and customers.



katrina46 said:


> Someone or a lot of writers could send this to the same guy who quoted kboard members in the KU thread a couple of years ago. This one is way more newsworthy. The biggest book retailer on the planet not pay authors properly. I'd write about it.


Was this journalist's contact info posted in this thread, or could someone post it?


----------



## N E Conneely

KelliWolfe said:


> Remember how their first response back at the very start of the topic was to start talking about their legal department when people emailed to find out what was going on? When have they ever done that for any kind of reporting issue or glitch before?


I'm still waiting to hear back from the legal department. When I last called they said they had no timeline on when I would hear something.


----------



## Loosecannon

Agreed, maybe just maybe we'll get lucky and they'll start giving us that info due to this fiasco.

Knowing that you had 100 Pages read in one day with 10 borrows vs. 100 Pages read and  1 borrow would be very helpful to know. Understandably some borows will not be read the same day, but at least we could see patterns as we gained that sort of data on a title over time.


----------



## KelliWolfe

<Tinfoil On>Or you might see that somehow you never get more than 100 pages per borrow on a 250 KENPC book, even though you've got a stack of organic 5 star reviews claiming it's the best book ever written.</Tinfoil On>


----------



## Going Incognito

Rates up. 0.0049?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

The page rate for September is .004974.

This will no doubt 90% decrease in reads that authors are seeing.

So no, they didn't rebalance the system. As soon as they send the email with the fund amount, we will see that overall reads are not significantly changed and probably went up from August to September.

The rate didn't increase generously to compensate us for lower reads. This isn't even the highest it's ever been.

Meanwhile people are seeing 90% decreases. What's going on here?


----------



## NotAPenguin

We have to fight this. There's no other choice.

Who knows a reporter?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Well, there's David Streitfeld. He's covered Amazon a lot.

http://www.davidstreitfeld.com/
@DAVIDSTREITFELD
[email protected]


----------



## Anarchist

dorihoxa said:


> Just received a newsletter from Mark Dawson. He is seeing weird reports, too. He advises no to worry because "like everyhting else, this will pass, too"


In my opinion, Dawson is the voice of reason in this matter.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Anarchist said:


> In my opinion, Dawson is the voice of reason in this matter.


Great, he can pay my mortgage.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Anarchist

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Great, he can pay my mortgage.


Are the options being bandied about in this thread going to pay your mortgage this month?

Next month?

The month after?

The month after that?

If so, please explain how.

I think it's reasonable to assume Amazon will eventually sort this mess out. They're unlikely to back pay, but they'll get it sorted out. So if you're doing well in KU and leave because of this issue, it seems to me you'll be shooting yourself in the foot if you're concerned about next month's mortgage. After all, it takes time to gain traction on other retailers.

It takes even more time to file a lawsuit.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

We've been waiting it out for six weeks. Amazon has released four different statements that all say "everything is normal, stop complaining".

Waiting it out is suicide. _Something_ is reducing our reads dramatically. Is it PageFlip? I don't know, but they already told us it doesn't count our reads, *by design.* It shows readers our content without recording it *by design*. It allows them to read and *we don't get paid, **by design*.

_*What have they done by design that they haven't told us about?
*_
How can we even trust the numbers they give? First it was .02%, then it was 2%.

That doesn't sound like a big deal, until you realize how big of a number 2% of the approximately 16,000,000,000 August reads would be.

60 million reads "affected". How many of those were mine? Yours?

They have zero accountability, zero transparency, and they're going to send us their usual enthusiastically worded emails and ignore people with *proof* that their business models have imploded overnight for no reason at all.

Mark Dawson can sit back and say to wait, he can just keep selling his Facebook course to make up the difference.

Me? I'm sitting on two novels, have a WIP, and plans for three more after that. I've been promising fans those books for over a year. I've put blood, sweat, and tears into getting them ready.

I don't dare even correct typos or update backmatter. What's left of my income might instantly crater for no reason.

Now for no possible reason to do with me, I don't know if I'll be able to even recoup the promotional costs of launching the books.

Amazon just rang the bell and proclaimed my career is over as I know it. So don't tell me to wait it out.

This isn't a glitch. I accepted that for the first six weeks of this. I assumed it would be fixed. It's clearly getting _worse_ and there has been no adjustment to the system. There's no sign they've eliminated fraudulent reads or done anything about scammers at all. All the people I see affected are hard working authors who poured themselves into building platforms and loyal fan bases over years of effort and Amazon won't even do any of us the common courtesy of a response. When we contact them we get form letters now.

I'd tell your readers what I may have to tell mine. Depending on how bad it is, it might be "sorry, I cant publish in KU anymore" or "sorry, I can't afford to write anymore."


----------



## KaraKing

RedAlert said:


> Bypass the minions and email Jeff. Not that I think that he deals with emails personally. But, might as well. You can't really say that Amazon is helping you in any way.
> 
> The Union idea won't work, IMO. Have to make the hard decision whether to leave KDP Select because of lost income. It is incredible that Amazon would admit that they designed a component to deliberately not count pages that so impacts an author's income. This is in the face of multiple people stating that they read in page flip mode.
> 
> Page Flip is just one thing that authors very smartly (kudos to all of you) figured out for Amazon. It just makes you want to vomit to read that they know it doesn't count correctly, and that there is an "negligible" impact, just not to THEIR bottom line. I think that if they owed me one red cent, I'd want them to pay it to me. It's not for them to say it isn't important. Really, that attitude reeks.
> 
> But, I also believe that there are other issues. Anything from software updates to viruses to new apps could be wreaking havoc. There are viruses out there that have truly created a nightmare scenario for businesses to deal with. Or, Amazon is just fiddling about in prep for Prime Read. The big mystery is why people are seeing this seesawing back and forth with their page reads.
> 
> Assuming that everybody here told the truth, one thing seems clear: representatives are not on the same page. Each level has a different script. Each person tells the part that they know, which is secretive and designed just to answer you and provide customer service without really helping you. And they can't really help you, anyway, because they have to fix the overall problem, which a minion can't do. Especially when they deny there is a problem anyway.
> 
> It is so disheartening. Why Amazon would damage itself so in quest of...what?
> 
> Email Jeff. A few hundred thousand emails on Page Flip might get noticed in his box. Subject line: "Page Flop." (That was a good one!)


I totally agree with you. If we all band together and send out mass emails to Bezos but all with the SAME SUBJECT LINE... that has to get noticed by someone. It may be our only way to get around the minions.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

A large number of authors sending in emails all at once would be great.

A large number of authors sending in emails all at once alongside their readers would be even better.


----------



## Anarchist

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> A large number of authors sending in emails all at once would be great.
> 
> A large number of authors sending in emails all at once alongside their readers would be even better.


----------



## dorihoxa

So let's just do it! We all have emails. We all have Jeff's email. We all know what to say. 

What's the subject line?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

They have the September fund amount on the official boards.

Reads from August to September decreased by 300,000. 3.457 billion pages in August, 3.199 in September.

Someone check my math. That's an 8.5% decrease.

That's a hell of a lot more than 2% of reads, especially against expected growth.

What's going on here, Amazon?


dorihoxa said:


> So let's just do it! We all have emails. We all have Jeff's email. We all know what to say.
> 
> What's the subject line?


My suggestion would be to have our readers ask about page flip, why they designed new kindles not to pay us, and what they're going to do about authors leaving KU.

_We_ should be asking the same questions, as well as asking what is going on with these numbers they've been feeding us.

They said .02% of reads were affected, then less than 2%, and reads are *down* 8.5% against expected growth, so September is off by 10% or more and October is looking worse- but the losses aren't evenly distributed.

Did they break it? Is this funneling to get authors to quit? *What did they do?*

_These numbers do *not* add up._


----------



## ......~......

Anarchist said:


> In my opinion, Dawson is the voice of reason in this matter.


I agree with this. I guess if someone isn't making much with KU it wouldn't make much difference if they pull out or not. But if you are making money with KU, I see no reason to go wide now. I'd wait and see what happens before doing anything that drastic.


----------



## KaraKing

NotAPenguin said:


> That's just it though. We need to get the press involved. Tweet, blog and generally not shut up about it. I've seen some people on Twitter tweeying directly to @kdpamazon but very few. It's going to take more than that to get their attention.


I just tweeted them. It's @AmazonKdp fyi and I also tweeted to @AmazonKindle. If anyone is tweeting about this make sure to use the hashtag #PageFlip or some other hashtag you all think is better but one we can all agree to use when tweeting about this issue. If enough of us use #PageFlip we can get some momentum under that hashtag. Spread word to other author tweeters.


----------



## samsea

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> They have the September fund amount on the official boards.
> 
> Reads from August to September decreased by 300,000. 3.457 billion pages in August, 3.199 in September.
> 
> Someone check my math. That's an 8.5% decrease.
> 
> That's a hell of a lot more than 2% of reads, especially against expected growth.
> 
> What's going on here, Amazon?
> My suggestion would be to have our readers ask about page flip, why they designed new kindles not to pay us, and what they're going to do about authors leaving KU.
> 
> _We_ should be asking the same questions, as well as asking what is going on with these numbers they've been feeding us.
> 
> They said .02% of reads were affected, then less than 2%, and reads are *down* 8.5% against expected growth, so September is off by 10% or more and October is looking worse- but the losses aren't evenly distributed.
> 
> Did they break it? Is this funneling to get authors to quit? *What did they do?*
> 
> _These numbers do *not* add up._


That is so depressing... reads are down oveer 14 percent yet pay is up less than 10. And I've placed all my books in KU this month. Servers me right for not hanging around here more.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

The increase in the rate was about 6%.

Honestly that makes it sound more inflated. We're talking about an increase of about one thousandth of one cent per page.

You know what I think might be going on here?

Amazon has decided romance readers and romance authors are all frauds. They're taking away our reviews, they seem to have put in place some system to drastically reduce romance readers (I think their fraud detection they've been hinting at is flagging legitimate romance reader activity as fraudulent and taking our reads) and they made it so anyone who skims our book gets our content for free.

*We need to know what they did and we need to keep asking until they tell us. *



Anarchist said:


> Are the options being bandied about in this thread going to pay your mortgage this month?
> 
> Next month?
> 
> The month after?
> 
> The month after that?
> 
> If so, please explain how.
> 
> I think it's reasonable to assume Amazon will eventually sort this mess out. They're unlikely to back pay, but they'll get it sorted out. So if you're doing well in KU and leave because of this issue, it seems to me you'll be shooting yourself in the foot if you're concerned about next month's mortgage. After all, it takes time to gain traction on other retailers.
> 
> It takes even more time to file a lawsuit.


This started in September. It's getting worse, not better, and Amazon's response is more dismissive and confused than ever.

Amazon obviously isn't handling this problem. I had a schedule and plans. I have completed books. I have backmatter that needs updating.

This isn't a hobby. My business is paralyzed right now. My readers are being denied content I promised them now. Not in two months, not whenever they fix this, now.

It's already been six weeks and they have already offered flat denials of any issue and told us that PageFlip doesn't count our reading on purpose. Do you honestly have faith they'll just fix that?

And, like I said. If Dawson wants to wait he can just raise the price on his courses for authors.

The rest of us can't afford to take a furlough for three months at the drop of a hat. Maintaining an author platform requires constant activity and releases.

Six weeks. Almost seven now. It's already halfway through October. When the problem is still happening in mid November and people see a 5% increase in payout against 90% reduced reads, what then?


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## ......~......

Atlantisatheart said:


> But it's not down for everybody and those people just got a handy payout - no wonder some are defending Amazon - until they lose 70% of their income and then they won't be so happy to have Amazon's back.


For me it's not about having Amazon's back, it's about having mine. I feel for the people affected but as long as I'm making money, I won't be going wide. Why would I? As a matter of principle? Solidarity? I doubt you'd be talking about pulling out of KU if you weren't affected.


----------



## Crystal_

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> The increase in the rate was about 6%.
> 
> Honestly that makes it sound more inflated. We're talking about an increase of about one thousandth of one cent per page.
> 
> You know what I think might be going on here?
> 
> Amazon has decided romance readers and romance authors are all frauds. They're taking away our reviews, they seem to have put in place some system to drastically reduce romance readers (I think their fraud detection they've been hinting at is flagging legitimate romance reader activity as fraudulent and taking our reads) and they made it so anyone who skims our book gets our content for free.


This is not the way Amazon has ever operated. They want people on their site, period. The only way I'd buy this is if romance readers are simply worse customers than readers in other genres. But I don't actually buy this, because it doesn't seem like departments talk to each other.


----------



## KaraKing

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> We've been waiting it out for six weeks. Amazon has released four different statements that all say "everything is normal, stop complaining".
> 
> Waiting it out is suicide. _Something_ is reducing our reads dramatically. Is it PageFlip? I don't know, but they already told us it doesn't count our reads, *by design.* It shows readers our content without recording it *by design*. It allows them to read and *we don't get paid, **by design*.
> 
> _*What have they done by design that they haven't told us about?
> *_
> How can we even trust the numbers they give? First it was .02%, then it was 2%.
> 
> That doesn't sound like a big deal, until you realize how big of a number 2% of the approximately 16,000,000,000 August reads would be.
> 
> 60 million reads "affected". How many of those were mine? Yours?
> 
> They have zero accountability, zero transparency, and they're going to send us their usual enthusiastically worded emails and ignore people with *proof* that their business models have imploded overnight for no reason at all.
> 
> Mark Dawson can sit back and say to wait, he can just keep selling his Facebook course to make up the difference.
> 
> Me? I'm sitting on two novels, have a WIP, and plans for three more after that. I've been promising fans those books for over a year. I've put blood, sweat, and tears into getting them ready.
> 
> I don't dare even correct typos or update backmatter. What's left of my income might instantly crater for no reason.
> 
> Now for no possible reason to do with me, I don't know if I'll be able to even recoup the promotional costs of launching the books.
> 
> Amazon just rang the bell and proclaimed my career is over as I know it. So don't tell me to wait it out.
> 
> This isn't a glitch. I accepted that for the first six weeks of this. I assumed it would be fixed. It's clearly getting _worse_ and there has been no adjustment to the system. There's no sign they've eliminated fraudulent reads or done anything about scammers at all. All the people I see affected are hard working authors who poured themselves into building platforms and loyal fan bases over years of effort and Amazon won't even do any of us the common courtesy of a response. When we contact them we get form letters now.
> 
> I'd tell your readers what I may have to tell mine. Depending on how bad it is, it might be "sorry, I cant publish in KU anymore" or "sorry, I can't afford to write anymore."


I completely agree with you. This is NOT a wait it out situation. This is NOT just another change to the program, so adjust or die situation. There is so much more than just the Page flip issue going on, granted the theft via page flip is a huge issue and it is inexcusable, it is not the only problem here. My page reads are down 30% but so are my sales across the board. I make changes to my book and they don't go through correctly. I'm sitting in Erotica right now and I didnt put myself there! There's much more to this than KU making some adjustments. Something is WRONG. They need to admit it, fix it, and make up for the loss... it's the right thing to do. Or... don't admit it but at least fix it! The page flip fiasco needs to be corrected IMMEDIATELY. This is blatant theft whether intentional or not. If we tolerate something this immoral, if our standards are THAT LOW, then what's next? Getting paid our crumbs on Amazon gift cards? Like, where will it end? We're seriously acting like the dumb girlfriend that tolerates abuse over and over again but will never leave her abuser... because he pays the bills.

I've been here long enough to see that every time they make a change to the program it lowers our income, time and time again, it never goes up, it always goes down... when will it stop?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Amazon has hinted that they did something new to combat fraud. They've been telling people that over the phone. They mentioned fraud in both announcements about dropped pages and the audit this month.

What if this fraud system is flagging legit activity? I know romance readers who will read 2+ books in a _day_.

If that's not what they're up to, then what are they doing?

They were happy to volunteer that pageflip doesn't count reading, by design. What aren't they telling us here?


----------



## KaraKing

KelliWolfe said:


> True. But the borrow is recorded to affect rankings immediately, whether the borrower ever opens the book or not. So the data is available and being used, it just isn't being made available to us. Why not? Why hide it? It's a useful metric, and no different than reporting on the number of free downloads we get, which aren't tied to any financial transaction either.


Exactly. There's no reason to keep this information from us. They tell us everything else, why keep this a secret?


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Anarchist

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> And, like I said. If Dawson wants to wait he can just raise the price on his courses for authors.
> 
> The rest of us can't afford to take a furlough for three months at the drop of a hat. Maintaining an author platform requires constant activity and releases.
> 
> Six weeks. Almost seven now. It's already halfway through October. When the problem is still happening in mid November and people see a 5% increase in payout against 90% reduced reads, what then?


So let's say you "_can't afford to take a furlough for three months_." You need money to pay your mortgage. Fair enough. But it begs the question...

What option do you have that will make up the shortfall in the next three months?

Will leaving KU do it? Not likely.

Will filing a lawsuit do it? Nope.

Will getting 50 authors - oh hell, let's be generous and say 100 authors - to email Bezos do the trick? C'mon... lol

Understand that I'm not telling you what to do. I'm not even making suggestions. Do whatever you want (and prosper or suffer the consequences).

I merely said that Dawson's position is reasonable. Just because his coffers are larger than yours doesn't mean he's less affected. And the fact that he has a course to sell is just a testament to his business acumen (diversify).

Dismissing his position by suggesting he pay your mortgage is tactless.


----------



## Indiecognito

Hey guys, this is a great and important thread, and needs to keep going. I respectfully request that you not inspire a lockdown on it. I (we all) get how infuriating and frustrating this situation is. But PLEASE, let's keep this thread open and not descend into squabbles.


----------



## JRTomlin

Atlantisatheart said:


> But it's not down for everybody and those people just got a handy payout - no wonder some are defending Amazon - until they lose 70% of their income and then they won't be so happy to have Amazon's back.


Seriously, what do you want?

Any of us who haven't been hit are well aware that we could be tomorrow, but exactly what are we supposed to do about it? Complain to Amazon about what is happening to someone else? With no data to back it up?

I'm sorry that this has hurt you, but there is nothing I can do about it.


----------



## RipleyKing

GreatUnpublished, for the old-timers here, they may remember them, they had a nasty habit of under-reporting all their sales, which authors confirmed by testing the system. They then had to fold their business because of a class-action lawsuit, but reopened under the new name of Booksurge. 

Authors discovered they were being underpaid by testing that system, and Booksurge's marvelous new dashboard, supposed to report real-time sales as they happened, but they had to face authors by the hundreds not happy with the thefts of their money. There may have been a class-action lawsuit there, too. Not sure. Booksurge sold out to Createspace.

Yes, Amazon.

Amazon has a history of lowering the amount authors earn, and so we adapted. We continuously adapt to lower and lower payouts. Under-reporting sales could have been the norm for Amazon since Dec. 2010, when KU 1 came out, and maybe only a few noticed, but never said anything. Too afraid to rock the boat. I can remember many authors flat-lined, and many had no real choice but to either stay wide, or jump on Zon's train. Many jumped on just to survive.

KU 2 blew many more authors out of the water, where their small but steady sales flat-lined, and stayed flat. They either went wide, or pushed anyway they could to get them reads. Some gave up.

Now this. It all sounds too familiar to me. History, repeating itself. 

Amazon has had years to position themselves to survive anything we can throw at them, even a class-action lawsuit, or loads of bad press. They can take it all and roll with the punches. They can take everything we can throw at them. Everything but this one single thing. 

Leave Amazon, not just KU 2, and never look back. 

Some of you can't leave. I understand more than most what it means to live on squat and foodstamps. I have tape around my EBT card, holding it together. 

The history is there. As much as I hate to say it, the history is there.

Money talks. The only real language Amazon understands.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

KaraKing said:


> I just tweeted them. It's @AmazonKdp fyi and I also tweeted to @AmazonKindle. If anyone is tweeting about this make sure to use the hashtag #PageFlip or some other hashtag you all think is better but one we can all agree to use when tweeting about this issue. If enough of us use #PageFlip we can get some momentum under that hashtag. Spread word to other author tweeters.


If you put a link to your tweets then we can re-tweet.


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## KaraKing

Atlantisatheart said:


> I don't want to pick a fight, Anarchist. I've read some posts written by you when I've been lurking the boards and you're a sarcastic tongue in cheek kind of a guy (I think you're a guy), but right now - when a lot of people have lost so much without reasoned explanation, tactless would be to take the *iss and lol them. Just saying.


Exactly.


----------



## Cherise

Nic said:


> Side note: there are several countries in the EU which define this status quo as being "pseudo self-employed" and they demand of the employer (here Amazon) that they pay regular, work-typical wages, health and work benefits, and of course also taxes. Legally and lawfully so.


No way is Amazon going to do this. If pressured to, they will just close KDP to citizens of the EU.


----------



## Anarchist

Atlantisatheart said:


> I don't want to pick a fight, Anarchist. I've read some posts written by you when I've been lurking the boards and you're a sarcastic tongue in cheek kind of a guy (I think you're a guy), but right now - when a lot of people have lost so much without reasoned explanation, tactless would be to take the *iss and lol them. Just saying.


I'm belittling the notion that getting a bunch of authors to email Bezos will effect change. A Change.org campaign has a better chance, which is to say none at all.

It wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings. But I'm disinclined to walk on eggshells around the easily offended.


----------



## JRTomlin

KaraKing said:


> I just tweeted them. It's @AmazonKdp fyi and I also tweeted to @AmazonKindle. If anyone is tweeting about this make sure to use the hashtag #PageFlip or some other hashtag you all think is better but one we can all agree to use when tweeting about this issue. If enough of us use #PageFlip we can get some momentum under that hashtag. Spread word to other author tweeters.


That is something I can and will do. 

I'll use #PageFlip


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Perhaps we all need to add a bit of front matter to our books: "Dear KU Reader, please don't use page flip to read my book as I might not get paid for it."


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## KaraKing

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> If you put a link to your tweets then we can re-tweet.


Great idea. Although my account is taboo... warning those with family friendly twitters accounts! lol

There's two of them:

https://twitter.com/KaraKing/status/786998038845726720

https://twitter.com/KaraKing/status/786997763338756096

Let's agree to use #PageFlip as a common hash tag in our twitter rants


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## KaraKing

JRTomlin said:


> That is something I can and will do.
> 
> I'll use #PageFlip


Thank you JR... that is very kind of you.


----------



## Going Incognito

888888 said:


> I suggest other people either adapt or leave the program Amazon isn't going to change [crap] based on their responses/actions.
> ...
> 
> My other suggestion would be to adapt to the changing environment. You can still make money in KU you just have to adjust your tactics to the changing algos.
> 
> ADAPT OR DIE.


Adapt how? We cant figure out what combo one two punch they've done. Besides the making a device that doesn't count your pages thing. How do we adapt to that? The one thing we've pinned down for sure?


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## Nothing To See

Going Incognito said:


> Adapt how? We cant figure out what combo one two punch they've done. Besides the making a device that doesn't count your pages thing. How do we adapt to that? The one thing we've pinned down for sure?


Make sure your readers know you're 1.) not being paid for those reads 2.) How to ensure you do get paid for reads


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## JRTomlin

Even if it doesn't influence Amazon, maybe it will discourage use of pageflip.

For anyone who wants a 'family friendly' link, here is one: https://twitter.com/JRTomlinAuthor/status/787014658888564736

Warning, my timeline is family friendly but highly political. So enter at your own risk. 

Another tweet link, this one to @Amazonkindle: https://twitter.com/JRTomlinAuthor/status/787015277359706112


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## KaraKing

On the phone with them... again. This time we're not discussing the random drop in rank (they seemed to have fixed that issue, thank the Lord above!) Today, we're covering the other attributes of my demise!

#1) My sales _and_ page reads have decreased by 30% on all three of my books.
#2) One book is stuck in Erotica and Genre Fiction and I never put it in there to begin with? Ever. And any attempt I make at getting out of those categories refuses to go through? 
#3) The final gem... my assigned KENPC page count went down on my books... for the second time. UGH!

Good news is that she mentioned the words glitch! I got the impression that they know something is going on, they're just not going to admit it to it, perhaps because they don't even know what it is.

We really need to call in and report our individual issues, they are investigating things over there and the more info they have, the better they'll be able to fix this.

Call 866-216-1072 and ask for KDP tech support, and tell them your specific issues.


----------



## 888888

In my opinion the page flip issue isn't the big thing effecting page reads. It's a new "fraud detection" algo that has hit all voracious romance readers. I took a 30% or 15K hit in Sept so I feel your pain.

Adapting to a changing environment with limited information is what business is about 

I won't share tips on a public forum as its taken $XX,XXX to figure stuff out but just know it's still very possible to make KU work (yes I'm in romance).

If you PM me I can send you a few tips that may help (they won't be earth shattering so don't expect that). But you are best to figure things out on your own as the algos will keep changing.

BTW I am nowhere near as talented as some of the romance juggernaughts on here (I've never even had a book break top 100), but just remember volume is king 



Going Incognito said:


> Adapt how? We cant figure out what combo one two punch they've done. Besides the making a device that doesn't count your pages thing. How do we adapt to that? The one thing we've pinned down for sure?


----------



## RuthNestvold

I just wrote a long blog post summarizing what's been going on in the last week or so:

https://ruthnestvold.wordpress.com/2016/10/14/a-chronicle-of-the-amazon-page-flip-controversy-or-how-to-piss-off-a-ton-of-your-vendors-all-at-once/

Here's the tweet to it:

https://twitter.com/Ruth_Nestvold/status/787020121885683712

I will now go share some of the other tweets above.


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## jloome

Hi Everyone.

I just want to offer a few different perspectives on this.

I'm a low-medium market author; I write detective novels as LH Thomson. I have only had three of my seventeen books in KU.

I have experienced the same decline in SALES as the rest of you have in KU, and it started in August. I'm now down about ten grand on the year and given that I only make about $40K as an ebook author, it's hurting.

I've noted a few things about this. 

1. I've been talking to amazon executive and kdp support about this for months. They have categorically denied there is a problem, even though any attempt to promote my books (through permafree promotions etc) actually causes my sales to DECLINE. 

2. The 'carry on' sales in my main series after a bookbub or other major promotion have dropped sharply; what would once cause sixty-plus days of selling more than fifty books a day now causes thirty in the case of a bookbub, and less than THREE in the case of a promo through a smaller-but-effective vendor like freebooksy.

3. On multiple occasions, my author ranking has dropped tens of thousands of places overnight for no apparent reason; this in turn seems to lead to sales declines due to less visibility.

In an attempt to reverse this trend, I did the exact OPPOSITE of everyone here and went into KU in August, even though I've found in the past it costs me more sales than I make back. Shares have not made up the difference 

BUT

They have been consistent. I have had no sudden declines in shares, just sales.

My belief is that Amazon has introduced an aggressive new anti-cheating algorithm and it is hitting people it shouldn't. In my case, I was sent a note saying "we believe you may have been cheating" back in late July or early August; I called Amazon executive (I'm a bit nuts, they hear from me too much) and was told it was a mistake, sent out in error.

Now, there's some interesting backstory here. When I started out on Kindle in 2011, I cheated. I couldn't believe people were getting hundreds and thousands of reviews and I couldn't get sight of one, practically; I also believed, based on how easy it was and how many reviews they obtained quickly (without mailing lists, quite often) that many,  many others were cheating. 

I was facing losing my job and needed to make a living; I'm also mildly autistic and dreaded going back to the workplace. So, I cheated.

I got away with it, too. But after a few of months and about forty fake reviews, my guilt conscience took over and I took them down and admitted what I'd done to Amazon. I got a letter back saying basically 'not to worry, you stopped, we won't penalize you further.'

However, since then, I have had occasional glitches where my raking or sales would just drop thousands of places to nothing. This only happened once or twice a year, and had always fixed itself by the time Amazon tried to address it. 

I believe what is happening is that the cheat algorithm associates books it KNOWS to be used for fraud with those it is UNSURE of (i.e. a cheat used your permafree to sign up sock puppet accounts) and to be safe, denigrates the score of the latter slightly. 

In August, after a couple of years of making all my sales through word-of-mouth (I'm antisocial due to anxiety) and people having read my permafree, my declining sales led me to sign up for Nick Stephenson's marketing course.

I improved my SEO, and my permafree shot up to the top eight hundred books on Amazon. My sales doubled... for two days. Then they plummeted to near zero.

The system thought I had cheated to get such an improvement; it's the only reasonable explanation. 

Right now, KU is chock-full of scam books that use one of two methods (that I know of, at least) to scam Amazon; in the first, they use the error in skipping ahead via the TOC to register reads. That's the most common. Some others I believe may be using phony page counts from Createspace; I suspect this because I accidentally pasted in the body of one of my books part-way through chapter three, and didn't notice for a few weeks that its page count had doubled inc createspace AND in KU, even though the KU book is a separate file with many less pages.

So in effect people can use createspace to artificially inflate the page count, then put a separate, different file on KU with many less pages, but get credited for the larger number.

I discovered this by accident although now it probably just adds to Amazon and its algorithm thinking I'm guilty when I'm just a) mildly autistic and b) exercise bad judgment when paying the rent is on the line.

Anyway, everything people here are reporting looks to me to be related to the cheat algorithm. It is probably relating many of your books to cheats, because they have used a permafree of yours or other cheap book to sign up an account, or have used bots to read both your books as well as theirs, for the appearance of legitimacy.

Me? I made a mistake five years  ago, owned up to it, was pardoned, and now am watching my livelihood circle the toilet.

Strangely, when I signed all my books (including my former permafree) up for KU three days ago, the sales went up across the board. I suspect just getting rid of a permafree alone might have been part of that.


----------



## Used To Be BH

KaraKing said:


> On the phone with them... again. This time we're not discussing the random drop in rank (they seemed to have fixed that issue, thank the Lord above!) Today, we're covering the other attributes of my demise!
> 
> #1) My sales _and_ page reads have decreased by 30% on all three of my books.
> #2) One book is stuck in Erotica and Genre Fiction and I never put it in there to begin with? Ever. And any attempt I make at getting out of those categories refuses to go through?
> #3) The final gem... my assigned KENPC page count went down on my books... for the second time. UGH!
> 
> Good news is that she mentioned the words glitch! I got the impression that they know something is going on, they're just not going to admit it to it, perhaps because they don't even know what it is.
> 
> We really need to call in and report our individual issues, they are investigating things over there and the more info they have, the better they'll be able to fix this.
> 
> Call 866-216-1072 and ask for KDP tech support, and tell them your specific issues.


They may not know what it is yet, and as others have pointed out earlier, the legal department has forbidden them to talk about it. Irritating as it is, that's the way most major corporations would respond these days.

I almost passed out when I saw an actual KDP support phone number. I wasn't sure such a thing actually exists.

What you say about data is 100% true. It sounds as if everyone isn't affected, or at least can't be sure, but anyone who's noticed an odd pattern should report it.

Amazon may be gagged by the legal department as far as frank public discussion of the issue is concerned, but we can still be reasonably sure of a few things. One is that Amazon still wants KDP Select, and right now KU (and AMS ads, for those who get a good ROI) are really the only solid reasons for anyone to stay in KU. Even those of us who haven't made much by going wide in the past would have no reason not to if KU continues to degenerate. Amazon keeps throwing more money into the pot each month and made at least some effort to stabilize compensation per page for a reason, either because KU is working well for it, or because it's a good hook to keep people in Select, or both. Amazon may not care about us, but it does care about Amazon. I can't help but think that if its business plan needs KU, it's going to have do something fairly substantial to fix the program. After all, the introduction of a Music Unlimited plan suggests Amazon is trying to expand the Unlimited brand, not get ready to fold it.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

The way they handled that PageFlip announcement where they reworded it within hours suggests to me that someone panicked or flew off the handle and posted that, and once the cat was out of the bag (that ever important by design) the legal team stepped in and forced them to rewrite it the way they did (which went from making a flat statement to adding a bunch of language stating nothing has changed).

They've flat out said to people on the phone that legal is involved.



jloome said:


> Hi Everyone.


I hope you don't mind I shortened your quote.

Thanks for sharing your experience, it's a really important thing IMHO.

This problem:

-Isn't universal
-Seems to be hitting romance more but is not exclusive to it
-Isn't being directly acknowledged

Meanwhile, Amazon has mentioned "fraud" multiple times in announcements.

That explanation makes the most sense to me. They put in an aggressive anti-fraud system and it's way too aggressive.

What else could it be?

*emilycantore*

I wrote erotica myself. I'm sure many, many more romance writers in the indie world have a history with it than they'd care to admit.

I know what you mean about getting smashed over and over again.

That's why I'm convinced this is Amazon taking a sledgehammer to a task that needs a scalpel.

I was there for the erotica content standards changes, where Amazon slashed people's catalogs from nearly a hundred books (like in my case) down to two or three and forced us to play a game of tag to figure out what they would and would not accept. It was a response to a sudden problem they didn't plan for (news coverage in the UK). There was a lot of odd behavior on Amazon's part. Random phone calls to authors without any rhyme or reason as to who they reached out to. Contradictory instructions from frontline support, ECR, and whoever made the phone calls.

It was chaos. It was panic.

It was a lot like this. Hence my growing suspicion that everyone suggesting that Amazon messed something up and overcorrected a problem here is right.


----------



## GeneDoucette

I'm interested in the downthread comment that non-KU sales have been effected. I've been seeing a lot of weird numbers, but my entire catalog has been in flux all summer, so I have nothing to show. If this 'glitch' is something that impacts the entire environment--not just KU, but the entire recommendation engine--that would be very interesting.


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## JRTomlin

emilycantore said:


> Unenrol your books from KDP Select today. You may have months to wait before going wide but at least that move means it is your choice and means you won't unintentionally go in for another term.
> 
> KU is lucrative and many of us have seen that but good books sell, no matter what. I've moved mass catalogs in and out of KU. KU is the fast treadmill - keep running and money flows. Wide is slow and steady. Your backlist makes stable money.
> 
> I don't know what genre exists that apparently only makes a decent income on KU but not wide?
> 
> So go wide. Your income will take a dive maybe or maybe not. Some are saying the drop in KU means they might not be able to pay the mortgage - these people definitely need to go wide! If a single distributor changing something can cripple your life, you're living on the knife edge every month.
> 
> If you've taken a hit big enough to kill your mortgage payment then take some concrete steps today:
> 
> 1) Unenrol from KDP Select. Open a spreadsheet and record all dates your books come out.
> 
> 2) Email Amazon and ask for all titles to be released from exclusivity
> 
> 3) Start formatting. Make a new version for Draft2Digital. Look up aggregators who distribute to Google Play (if you don't have an account). These places will take a cut but it's the quickest way to go wide and cover all the major players. D2D pays monthly via PayPal.
> 
> 4) If Amazon lets you go, upload everything to D2D first. Then GooglePlay direct or to the aggregator you chose.
> 
> 5) If Amazon keep you in, keep fighting to get out and get prepared to distribute titles the moment they are out of Select.
> 
> KDP Select is 3 months, max. No matter what order your books come out, by the three month mark you catalog is wide.
> 
> In the meantime, look at your life, your expenses and cut like crazy. D2D pay monthly so an upload today doesn't pay until November. I have titles not coming out until end December so end Jan or end Feb is the earliest I'll see wide income for them.
> 
> *You need to make a choice.*
> 
> If you won't be able to pay the mortgage unless KU delivers some miracle then you need to move on going wide now. Write to Amazon to get out of KDP Select. Format your epubs for D2D. Pick a distributor for GooglePlay and learn their system.
> 
> Even if Amazon delivers a miracle that scrapes you back to profit, do you want to live like that?
> 
> Finally, if you really are writing in a genre that only sells well in KU and you've made yourself reliant on that income to be full-time --- you may need to pivot to a different genre and start writing.
> 
> I wrote erotica and so I experienced multiple apocalypses associated with that genre. I went from $36K a year with GooglePlay down to $6K because they changed something. Erotica authors have been smashed like this many times. It's why I pivoted and changed genres. And if my new genre gets kicked down, I'll pivot again.
> 
> This is a long game and a difficult one. You can't write just a few books and enjoy those backlist earnings.
> 
> If you're making serious KU income then you are good enough to make a living wide. You can still put some books in KU to test. KU may come back and you can dive in again. The game is long.
> 
> If you've built your career on KU to the point you might not be able to pay the mortgage, then I'm sorry but you've made a career error. You can fix it though.
> 
> Go wide, keep writing, cut expenses and eventually other money will flow. It's difficult but us erotica writers have done it.
> 
> So can you.


No. I am not giving up a good chunk of my income because you say to.


----------



## hopecartercan

I just published a book early this morning. It is enrolled in KDP Select. I just found out from a customer who bought it that Amazon is saying that my book is not compatible with Kindle Cloud Reader. I went and purchased my book and tried to read it in Cloud Reader myself. I found out the customer was correct. Do you guys think that what's going on with my book is part of the missing page read problem?

ETA: Please excuse my post if this has already been discussed in this 30+ page topic.


----------



## Alarmcall

hopecartercan said:


> I just published a book early this morning. It is enrolled in KDP Select. I just found out from a customer who bought it that Amazon is saying that my book is not compatible with Kindle Cloud Reader. I went and purchased my book and tried to read it in Cloud Reader myself. I found out the customer was correct. Do you guys think that what's going on with my book is part of the missing page read problem?


Is the book PageFlip enabled?


----------



## hopecartercan

Alarmcall said:


> Is the book PageFlip enabled?


Yes, it is.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

*So, page flip is enabled on everything.
*
I've heard from two different authors who tested this with books that aren't marked with page flip in the store. They open in page flip anyway.

So there's that, and other authors telling me that Amazon has contacted them to ask that they make their formatting PageFlip compatible, or just informing them that Amazon did it for them.


----------



## Nothing To See

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> *So, page flip is enabled on everything.
> *
> I've heard from two different authors who tested this with books that aren't marked with page flip in the store. They open in page flip anyway.


Hold on. It's enabled for everything? Even books without the enhanced typesetting?


----------



## JRTomlin

emilycantore said:


> You've already made it clear in your comments that this issue hasn't affected you... so why this rude response to me? I'm not talking to you. I think that's clear.
> 
> No one is pressuring you to do anything and yet you're acting like people are.
> 
> My advice isn't for *you*. It's for anyone who has been hit and is reeling.
> 
> I know that panic - Erotica has been crushed in the past.
> 
> I'm bewildered you would send such a rude message. It's not helpful and very antagonistic. You want the thread locked? This is how it happens. Please don't do that again.


I reacted that way because what you wrote very much did NOT read as though you were speaking to only people who have taken a hit.



> Unenrol your books from KDP Select today. You may have months to wait before going wide but at least that move means it is your choice and means you won't unintentionally go in for another term.
> 
> KU is lucrative and many of us have seen that but good books sell, no matter what. I've moved mass catalogs in and out of KU. KU is the fast treadmill - keep running and money flows. Wide is slow and steady. Your backlist makes stable money.
> 
> I don't know what genre exists that apparently only makes a decent income on KU but not wide?
> 
> So go wide. ...


That very much seems to be addressed to everyone. And I am not 'reacting as though '_people_' are pressuring me. Only two people seem to be putting pressure on other authors.

And I wasn't rude. Telling someone 'no' when they tell you what to do is not 'rude'. However, if what you were saying was *intended* for only those who have taken a hit, with whom I have made it clear I sympathize, then there is no reason for you to get up in arms because I won't take advice not intended for me.

Good luck to you.


----------



## NotAPenguin

I can't imagine this will be fixed quickly. It took them so long to develop this to begin with. Even if page flip is only part of the problem, our ability to make money in kindle unlimited is severely compromised.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Nothing To See said:


> Hold on. It's enabled for everything? Even books without the enhanced typesetting?


That's what I'm hearing from my two author friends who tested.

Here's another thing I just read on another forum:

Amazon doesn't actually count the pages. It's all percentages. Remember how they used to pay us for 10% of a borrowed book? They still do that, they just pay on a percentage basis now. So instead of a flat amount per 10%, it's an amount for every X%. A page isn't a "page" it's a percentage of the book.

When we get X page reads it's actually X percent of the book that's read.

PageFlip might be breaking the last page read location that the Kindle reports back to Amazon. People on Reddit are talking about this, too.

If that's true, then people wouldn't need to read entire books in PageFlip, or use it much at all. As much as opening it might means that user's reading activity isn't measured. We don't know. If that's true it's a huge bug in the system and it would have little to nothing to do with reader activity at all.


----------



## Guest

Please, moderators, DON'T LOCK THIS THREAD. This topic is too important.
I have author friends who are losing a mass of their earnings. Reasonably predictable earnings that has meant this is THEIR job. Not like me, a hobbyist.
And what hurts those who have carved a career out of this, could hurt us all. 
This topic needs scaling up. Amazon have to look into this and help the situation. It is the creatives who built them. And we are indebted to Amazon for giving people the opportunity. (We dont mean to moan)
Please, Amazon... fix this up. I am begging you, personally, like a sap.
To anyone arguing here: we are all pretty peed off here. Let's not fight. We all have a dog in this fight. We have to unite and be passionate and strong.
Back to Amazon: I have faith in you. Please, push your fixes and research into this and lets all make money together.
Happy authors=great books=satisfied customers=win for all.
xx


----------



## dorihoxa

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> That's what I'm hearing from my two author friends who tested.
> 
> Here's another thing I just read on another forum:
> 
> Amazon doesn't actually count the pages. It's all percentages. Remember how they used to pay us for 10% of a borrowed book? They still do that, they just pay on a percentage basis now. So instead of a flat amount per 10%, it's an amount for every X%. A page isn't a "page" it's a percentage of the book.
> 
> When we get X page reads it's actually X percent of the book that's read.
> 
> PageFlip might be breaking the last page read location that the Kindle reports back to Amazon. People on Reddit are talking about this, too.
> 
> If that's true, then people wouldn't need to read entire books in PageFlip, or use it much at all. As much as opening it might means that user's reading activity isn't measured. We don't know. If that's true it's a huge bug in the system and it would have little to nothing to do with reader activity at all.


This makes so much sense


----------



## tresero

KaraKing said:


> I completely agree with you. This is NOT a wait it out situation. This is NOT just another change to the program, so adjust or die situation. There is so much more than just the Page flip issue going on, granted the theft via page flip is a huge issue and it is inexcusable, it is not the only problem here. My page reads are down 30% but so are my sales across the board. I make changes to my book and they don't go through correctly. I'm sitting in Erotica right now and I didnt put myself there! There's much more to this than KU making some adjustments. Something is WRONG. They need to admit it, fix it, and make up for the loss... it's the right thing to do. Or... don't admit it but at least fix it! The page flip fiasco needs to be corrected IMMEDIATELY. This is blatant theft whether intentional or not. If we tolerate something this immoral, if our standards are THAT LOW, then what's next? Getting paid our crumbs on Amazon gift cards? Like, where will it end? We're seriously acting like the dumb girlfriend that tolerates abuse over and over again but will never leave her abuser... because he pays the bills.
> 
> I've been here long enough to see that every time they make a change to the program it lowers our income, time and time again, it never goes up, it always goes down... when will it stop?


My 3rd spinoff bundle is being sold with the first series content. I even downloaded the .mobi file from KDP and it's the correct one. The book has the correct cover, correct inside cover, and all the wrong content.

I also did the ratios on page reads/sales. I average since Jan 850 pages read per sale. My new release from the 6th, is averaging 45 pages per sale. That's less than 5% of normal.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Has anyone noticed if their last-position-read is synching correctly across their devices/apps? If that's broken along with audiosynch, then it would definitely narrow things down.


----------



## Guest

Happy you guys are drilling down and experimenting. You should work for Amazon you lot... have it cleared up in no time 
Seriously. Amazon should have this covered. The community is doing a wonderful job of bringing stuff to light.


----------



## 77071

It's time for me to release my next book.  I obviously WON'T be putting it in Kindle Unlimited.    However, should I also delay its release on Amazon altogether?  I can release elsewhere and tell my readers there is trouble with Amazon.  Or will I still get proper payment and rank for sales, without KU?  

I just feel like things are so messed up right now, I don't want to end up with some kind of hiccup in the system just giving it away.  (Like I'm pretty sure I ended up doing with the last one.)


----------



## Guest

HSh
I'd wait a week or two, see if it clears up maybe? Unless you HAVE to pub right now of course.
I am holding off on pen name releases until this mess is sorted or they admit this will be the new norm (if it is, Ill go wide and keep the day job)


----------



## phoenixwaller

KelliWolfe said:


> Has anyone noticed if their last-position-read is synching correctly across their devices/apps? If that's broken along with audiosynch, then it would definitely narrow things down.


I noted a ways back in this thread that my eInk kindle is reporting correctly to my android phone, but the phone does not sync back, even when I force sync both devices.


----------



## TromboneAl

Part of the root of problems like this is what I call a tolerance for complexity.

Amazon sold books and paid authors a royalty on each sale. Not a bad system. Simple. Easy to administer.

Then they came up with letting readers borrow books, and paid per borrow. Still pretty simple and easy to administer.

Then they decided they would pay based on the actual pages read. At this point, someone should have said,










"Are you kidding me? Is this an April Fools joke? We're going to keep track of every time someone turns a page? Forget it. That will turn into a mess. Forget it."

But apparently no one said that.


----------



## The one with all the big dresses on the covers

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> *So, page flip is enabled on everything.
> *
> I've heard from two different authors who tested this with books that aren't marked with page flip in the store. They open in page flip anyway.
> 
> So there's that, and other authors telling me that Amazon has contacted them to ask that they make their formatting PageFlip compatible, or just informing them that Amazon did it for them.


From what I can understand from following all the comments on here (see Atunah's below particularly) the new page flip is the 9 page one and is the one linked to enhanced typesetting. The other one has been around for awhile. I'm also pretty sure that it's the older, one page, version that people are using to read (surely!). It also seems to depend heavily on what device you're reading on.

This matches up with my experience - when I published my first book in *January*, page reads were low enough that I was able to notice 1 page days. At the time I just found it amusing "it's funny how I never actually have a zero page day - instead there will be one page - yay for making half a cent ".

The combination of those bits of information leads me to strongly suspect that the non recording page flip thing has been around since the first, one page, page flip functionality was introduced. It's just that with the larger issues currently going on (glitches? Algo change? Anti fraud change? Who knows!) authors suddenly had a reason to go digging and experimenting and trying to identify glitches. Plus authors with enough track record to know something was wrong had their page reads drop enough to notice the one page effect.

This is just from following others' posts and experiments though so if I've got it wrong, please let me know!



Atunah said:


> For those that don't know what it looks like, page flip that is. Here are 2 images from a kindle. One with full page page flip and one with 9 images page flip. Only the 9 images one is new, the other one has been with us for quite some time. I am trying to get a pic from my Nexus to show the app. But its updating as I haven't used it in a while. I'll add the image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here from Android tablet, kindle app


----------



## Guest

vellum... some folk I know are reporting that Amazon are stripping the vellum formatting in books. If this is a permanent feature, Vellum as a business is not looking great right now. Poor guys 
What are Amazon playing at?
Vellum formatting is so lush.


----------



## Patty Jansen

Andrew Murray said:


> vellum... some folk I know are reporting that Amazon are stripping the vellum formatting in books. If this is a permanent feature, Vellum as a business is not looking great right now. Poor guys
> What are Amazon playing at?
> Vellum formatting is so lush.


Please substantiate and don't perpetuate rumours. Let the affected people talk for themselves and outline exactly what is happening.

Also: Amazon screws up something, and somehow that's Vellum's fault?

Let's just be clear about one thing:

All these screw-ups, whether big or small, from people losing mortgage money to my perfect flatline page reads this month for my two measly KU short story collections (SO FRIGGIN GLAD I'm not in Select for anything major), to the page flip fiasco and the inadequate and downright stupid responses we've been getting are AMAZON's fault.

Not ours.
Not any third-party vendor's.

AMAZON's.


----------



## Indiecognito

Andrew Murray said:


> vellum... some folk I know are reporting that Amazon are stripping the vellum formatting in books. If this is a permanent feature, Vellum as a business is not looking great right now. Poor guys
> What are Amazon playing at?
> Vellum formatting is so lush.


If this is true then GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH.


----------



## AllyWho

Andrew Murray said:


> vellum... some folk I know are reporting that Amazon are stripping the vellum formatting in books. If this is a permanent feature, Vellum as a business is not looking great right now.


That's a kindle setting, Amazon is not stripping out formatting to damage Vellum users. It is something controlled by the user, like font size. I have my default kindle setup as Bookerly which strips all the fancy formatting.

The amount of scaremongering and false information being circulated in this thread is scary. I think it should be locked as its just fuelling mass hysteria without any basic fact checking or understanding of the true issues.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18

AliceW said:


> That's a kindle setting, Amazon is not stripping out formatting to damage Vellum users. It is something controlled by the user, like font size. I have fancy formatting disabled on my kindle. The amount of scaremongering and false information being circulated in this thread is scary.


Hmm. How did you do that, and is that for a regular Kindle such as Voyage or Oasis? I have to switch from Publisher's Font to Bookerly on a per book basis if the book has a Publisher's Font, which doesn't disable all the fancy formatting. Scene breaks and chapter headings stay "fancy," but drop caps become plain. I wouldn't want to lose everything attractive, but I do want to choose my own preferred font for reading and am willing to give up pretty drop caps to achieve that.


----------



## CozyReads

I reformatted one of my books in Vellum and uploaded it yesterday. During the file upload, KDP stripped out my drop caps and my pretty scene separators, which does not make me happy. At all. I'm going to try tweaking the file and re-uploading to see if I can get them back. 

And I agree: this is NOT a Vellum problem. It's an Amazon problem.  

Edited to add: I don't have fancy formatting turned off and the other books in my series with the exact same Vellum formatting are displaying all the graphical elements just fine. The only difference is that the other books were reformatted several months ago and the one book was reformatted yesterday. This isn't misinformation or fear-mongering, it's fact.


----------



## Guest

AliceW said:


> That's a kindle setting, Amazon is not stripping out formatting to damage Vellum users. It is something controlled by the user, like font size. I have my default kindle setup as Bookerly which strips all the fancy formatting.
> 
> The amount of scaremongering and false information being circulated in this thread is scary. I think it should be locked as its just fuelling mass hysteria without any basic fact checking or understanding of the true issues.


What ARE you talking about? I am not trying to scare anyone. I am simply sharing what authors who have experienced this have told me. Please, dont jump down my throat.
I am quite aware that fonts sizes etc can be changed, thank you. But drop caps and fancy looking chapter breaks cannot. And PAGEFLIP strips it. You are asking for a thread to be locked on an extremely serious matter. No one knows the extend of these blips, we are all sharing what little we know in order to discover the solution. Your outburst is unhelpful in this matter.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Guest

I NEVER blamed Vellum. In fact, I was hoping to use them for a book next week! I love what they do. Huge fan.
As you said, AliceW, why not do some fact checking for yourself.
I am trying to make people aware of what I heard. God, I hope the guys at Vellum can sort it with Amazon... its their baby.


----------



## Nathan Elliott

Atlantisatheart said:


> ... Next they'll be doing it to back catalogues like they did when they first reformatted all of our books to make them standard. ...


What are you referring to? Was that a long time ago? Was it related to KF8 coming out? Are you referring to the way they seem to convert all the pretty KF8 CSS into somewhat standardized HTML tags for the MOBI version and the Look Inside version?


----------



## KelliWolfe

Atlantisatheart said:


> That's bad news for all of those authors who seem to have been protected from this by formatting with vellum then, because that looks like Amazon are opening up everyone to this glitch. Next they'll be doing it to back catalogues like they did when they first reformatted all of our books to make them standard. Be aware vellum users and watch for changes to your reads. Geez, Amazon are worse than the Borg.


Another interesting question is what stripping out this formatting is doing to their KENPC counts.


----------



## Patty Jansen

Atlantisatheart said:


> I don't think that he meant it's vellum's fault, just that why would you bother buying vellum if Amazon are stripping it back?


1. They are not stripping back any basic formatting. In my case, not even the the fancy stuff.
2. Vellum are one of the most responsive companies I know. Unlike Amazon, they will jump to any problem quickly and fix it, often within days.


----------



## Guest

Regular drop caps and fancy ornamental breaks seems to be the issue for my source. The more word-like styles are fine... apparently.


----------



## Brad West

SweetReads said:


> I reformatted one of my books in Vellum and uploaded it yesterday. During the file upload, KDP stripped out my drop caps and my pretty scene separators, which does not make me happy. At all. I'm going to try tweaking the file and re-uploading to see if I can get them back.


Can you get in touch with us and send us a pointer to your book? We'd like to see what's happening here.

A common problem users encounter is that when Amazon first generates a Look Inside, it will be in the older mobi7 format, which can't display drop caps or the images used for ornamental breaks. It can take a few days before Amazon generates a version of your Look Inside with the full formatting.

A downloaded book (or even just a sample) should display all the formatting you expect. Please let us know if that's not the case.


----------



## Guest

Patty... I know, I heard their podcast today. I love what they do. 
I can't imagine why anyone thought I was bashing Vellum. I'm defending them!


----------



## tresero

Brad West said:


> Can you get in touch with us and send us a pointer to your book? We'd like to see what's happening here.
> 
> A common problem users encounter is that when Amazon first generates a Look Inside, it will be in the older mobi7 format, which can't display drop caps or the images used for ornamental breaks. It can take a few days before Amazon generates a version of your Look Inside with the full formatting.
> 
> A downloaded book (or even just a sample) should display all the formatting you expect. Please let us know if that's not the case.


It's not a vellum anything. I did the same thing with Jutoh. They haven's stripped anything yet (it's been 24 hours) and I don't have page-flip on the books I added the svg to.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Patty Jansen

Andrew Murray said:


> Patty... I know, I heard their podcast today. I love what they do.
> I can't imagine why anyone thought I was bashing Vellum. I'm defending them!


It totally didn't come across to me like that.

Also, it really helps if everyone in this thread only reported stuff that actually happened to THEM, not their friends, or any "I have heard" stuff, because if you don't know the exact details, information is easily distorted.


----------



## Guest

Thank you for coming into this conversation, Brad. I hope you didn't think I was bashing you? Did you?
Anyway... I was shocked to hear from some authors who said formatting was being reverted. It was a theory (not fact, theory) in light of the amazon mess that pageflip was having some affect on things, pages read and the beautiful look of vellum books.


----------



## Guest

Patty, your right. It's just a shock to hear this stuff. I'll refrain from commenting.
I'm just hoping for a good outcome here... page reads, Vellum, happy authors, etc...


----------



## Gertie Kindle

emilycantore said:


> Apparently PageFlip breaks Audiosync, which is just more evidence pages/percentages aren't being tracked as a reader progresses. If it was then audiosync would be able to keep up.


Yes, I mentioned that several pages back. Impossible to read every post and keep up, I know.

I never could audiosync a book when page flip popped up and that's the biggest reason I don't like it as a reader.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Nathan Elliott

Atlantisatheart said:


> You'll have to forgive my memory of what this was, but I remember back when they introduced KU2 that the said they were going to normalise / reformat all of our back catalogues so that they could make page count standard across the board for counting page reads. I have no idea what they did but we all got the page amounts for our books at the same time and none of them matched anybody else's - but we also all had higher page amounts back then too - they seem to have been reducing them down ever since.
> 
> Anybody more tech savvy remember that?


Thanks. Not being in KU, I guess I didn't pay attention to the discussion of that. I wish I had. I took great care with formatting and I hope they didn't mess it up. Does anybody know whether that actually affected the way the books display, or just the page counts for KU?


----------



## Brad West

Andrew Murray said:


> Thank you for coming into this conversation, Brad. I hope you didn't think I was bashing you? Did you?
> Anyway... I was shocked to hear from some authors who said formatting was being reverted.


Not at all, but I would agree with Patty that we would appreciate some actual examples over second- or third-hand reports.

If Amazon is indeed stripping formatting out of books (and not just presenting their mobi7 version in some cases), then we'll certainly look into why. But the first we've heard of this is on this page: none of our users have contacted us about this. (We do, on the other hand, receive many questions about Look Inside, which is why I mentioned it above).

We are obviously trying to stay abreast of this thread, but there's so much going on here that it is probably not the best place to break into a troubleshooting session. If some one is noticing this with their books, we really recommend contacting us directly:
https://help.vellum.pub/contact/


----------



## jchance

Those who have Vellum can upload several pages of Lorem Ipsum prettily formatted as a test file, if you're in doubt.


----------



## Guest

I will be using your service next weekend. I may go with a simpler style by nature of my book but I'm confident it will all work out in the end. Loved your podcast btw.


----------



## ......~......

As far as Vellum I can only think of my last release. The Look Inside is still stripped after more than a month after release. Once I released the book I bought it and the version I got was stripped. I contacted Vellum and that's how it showed for them too once they downloaded a sample. Then about two hours later the correct formatting suddenly kicked in right after I reuploaded my file. I don't think the reuploading did it because once you buy or borrow a book you can only ever get that first version you downloaded.


----------



## jchance

NeedWant said:


> As far as Vellum I can only think of my last release. The Look Inside is still stripped after more than a month after release. Once I released the book I bought it and the version I got was stripped. I contacted Vellum and that's how it showed for them too once they downloaded a sample. Then about two hours later the correct formatting suddenly kicked in right after I reuploaded my file. I don't think the reuploading did it because once you buy or borrow a book you can only ever get that first version you downloaded.


So the formatting kicked in on the Look Inside?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

jchance said:


> Those who have Vellum can upload several pages of Lorem Ipsum prettily formatted as a test file, if you're in doubt.


I wouldnt. If you upload gibberish to the store Amazon may think you're a scammer.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18

AliceW said:


> That's a kindle setting, Amazon is not stripping out formatting to damage Vellum users. It is something controlled by the user, like font size. I have my default kindle setup as Bookerly which strips all the fancy formatting.


That is just not true, at least not on Kindle-Kindles or the Android Kindle app. I did my last book with Vellum. I bought the book and have what Amazon sends out. I have it on a Kindle Keyboard, a Voyage, and an Oasis. All are set to the Bookerly font. All still have the chapter headings (with images) I chose, all have the Small Cap lead ins to chapters and scenes, and all have the scene break indicators. When I checked before publishing by sideloading the Vellum file to my Kindles, the only formatting lost was the drop cap. There was still a drop cap, it just wasn't in the pretty romance font I chose, so I didn't use a drop cap.

I can recognize at least some Vellum-generated books on my Kindles because they have the above formatting, and that's all with Bookerly.

Is some device other than a Kindle-Kindle behaving as you describe?

As to Look Inside, Heaven knows. One of my books that's been up for years is screwed up out of the blue right now. I want to redo them all with Vellum anyway, but I'm half afraid to upload right now as so far I haven't been affected by the lowered page counts - so far as I can tell.


----------



## jchance

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I wouldnt. If you upload gibberish to the store Amazon may think you're a scammer.


No. You upload a test book, do your thing, and unpublish it immediately. I (and others) have done this multiple times for various reasons.


----------



## ......~......

jchance said:


> So the formatting kicked in on the Look Inside?


No. Just on my Kindle. The Look Inside is still stripped.

ETA: By stripped I mean it's in the older MOBI7 format.


----------



## jchance

emilycantore said:


> They're saying this is dangerous though. Publishing a gibberish book and reading through it triggers a payout... so it is scammy, from Amazon's point of view. I'm not using my account to test anything by uploading junk.
> 
> You could be risking your account is the point.


It's not dangerous. First, you don't have to flip through it to see if the formatting is still there. It'll open to your first chapter. Drop cap there? Fine, you're done. Second, if you feel the need to flip through it, use PageFlip so you won't steal that 2.9 cents from Amazon for your 6 page test book.

You're really worrying about nothing.


----------



## jchance

NeedWant said:


> No. Just on my Kindle. The Look Inside is still stripped.
> 
> ETA: By stripped I mean it's in the older MOBI7 format.


So you redownloaded the book and got a new file to show? You said in your previous post that couldn't happen. Do you mean the sample you grab during publishing to check?

I think the reupload probably played a part.


----------



## amdonehere

Just chiming in on one bit that may be helpful to the conversation here.

Amazon is not afraid of a lawsuit by us. It is not. A lawsuit will cost way too much money for a majority of us so unless a real big hitter KU all-star here decides to file suit and put his/her money in to pay a lawyer, it's not going to happen. (In that case Amazon would probably find it much cheaper to settle and put an NDA gag on that author, and both would walk away happy unless that author wants to be a martar and never do business on Amazon again.)

Amazon has a battalion of lawyers in-house and outside ready to defend at the moment of a filing by any of us. And good luck trying to find a lawyer or law firm who would think it's a good idea to take on Amazon. No lawyer would touch this with a ten foot pole without a very hefty retainer. You better be Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, next action movie: Elon Musk v. Jeff Bezo.

Then there'll be thousands of years of evidence gathering, which the Amazon army of lawyers will react by stall and stall, and the data provided will fill a warehouse and be unreadable and uninterpretable, and by the time anything comes to anything, this whole thing would have blown over already.

So forget the legal talks. What would really get Amazon to act is viral social media, if you all are so inclined. Start tweeting. Keep tweeting. If you know a journalist of a news channel blogger and. can convince them to write about it, and they report on and and tweet some more, Amazon will have to act.


----------



## pwtucker

I know some journalists. I'm going to send out some emails.


----------



## ......~......

jchance said:


> So you redownloaded the book and got a new file to show? You said in your previous post that couldn't happen. Do you mean the sample you grab during publishing to check?
> 
> I think the reupload probably played a part.


I deleted the book from my cloud and downloaded it again that way. The mobi file looked normal when I tested it before publication. It was after I purchased the published version that I got the stripped version.

The reason I think reuploading didn't do it was because it changed right after so it probably didn't have time to go through yet. Also because previous books I've purchased or borrowed I can only ever get that first version even if I delete and purchase it again.


----------



## jchance

NeedWant said:


> I deleted the book from my cloud and downloaded it again that way. The mobi file looked normal when I tested it before publication. It was after I purchased the published version that I got the stripped version.
> 
> The reason I think reuploading didn't do it was because it changed right after so it probably didn't have time to go through yet. Also because previous books I've purchased or borrowed I can only ever get that first version even if I delete and purchase it again.


Oh, I see what you're saying. For the life of me, I don't know why a file would be stripped then magically look the way it was supposed to later. That's a new one on me.


----------



## AllyWho

ellenoc said:


> That is just not true, at least not on Kindle-Kindles or the Android Kindle app. I did my last book with Vellum. I bought the book and have what Amazon sends out. I have it on a Kindle Keyboard, a Voyage, and an Oasis. All are set to the Bookerly font.


I format with Vellum, I have fancy headers, drop cap and fleurons. None of that formatting comes across to my kindle with Bookerly. My understanding and my experience is that Bookerly standardises all the fonts etc so nothing fancy shows. Maybe you have a different setting somewhere else? *shrug*

People are passing on second hand rumours by saying Amazon is stripping Vellum formatting as though it's a massive conspiracy theory. Many of the issues people are laying at Amazon's door have far more ordinary origins. Like kindle settings. Or not understanding the difference between borrows and reads. There's a mob panic in here that frankly isn't productive. While people scream the sky is falling, I'm going to do my own analysis as it applies to *my* business and make my decisions based on facts, not speculation, fear mongering and Chinese whispers.


----------



## RedAlert

Anarchist said:


> I'm belittling the notion that getting a bunch of authors to email Bezos will effect change. A Change.org campaign has a better chance, which is to say none at all.
> 
> It wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings. But I'm disinclined to walk on eggshells around the easily offended.


Keeping in mind that Betsy never sleeps, I disagree with your comment. You are the one that cut the number of possible emails down to 100. I said something like, hundreds of thousands. Or, something far in excess of 100. And yes, while it is an unlikely event, there have been times in history where concentrated efforts have produced results. It just depends on how badly you want something for a specified group.

But, we don't even know if Jeff Bezos knows what is happening within his Amazon. That is why people should email him directly, despite the fact that YOU think it is a waste of time. In the past, people have reported on KB that they had good results from a single email directed to Jeff.

I'll disregard your abrasive "eggshells" comment. I'm interested in this mystery and want it solved so people can feel better. As hard as it is to write a book, no one should have to go through this. Some will prosper, some will fade, but NO ONE should have to watch their stuff wither and die because of Amazon's business plan.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Cherise

Atlantisatheart said:


> Funny you should mention this - I'm in the UK and my mortgage insurance policy covers me for up to 1 mil of legal cover which includes work related disputes - I'm sure any barrister here in the UK would relish taking on Amazon, I can think of a few high profile ones that would do it for free, especially when they are so hated over here for not paying their taxes. Again - just saying. I've been in court more times than I care to remember taking on the system - not entirely sure I'd want to do that again with Amazon, but our legal system over here might be better suited than the US.


But Amazon is domiciled in the US.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## KelliWolfe

Atlantisatheart said:


> Funny you should mention this - I'm in the UK and my mortgage insurance policy covers me for up to 1 mil of legal cover which includes work related disputes - I'm sure any barrister here in the UK would relish taking on Amazon, I can think of a few high profile ones that would do it for free, especially when they are so hated over here for not paying their taxes. Again - just saying. I've been in court more times than I care to remember taking on the system - not entirely sure I'd want to do that again with Amazon, but our legal system over here might be better suited than the US.


Might want to go read over the TOS you signed before you were allowed to create your KDP account. You relinquished your right to sue Amazon in exchange for the ability to publish and sell your books in their store. At best any dispute would go through arbitration, and you can bet that you'd lose your account and any ability to ever publish there again as part of the process.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## amdonehere

Atlantisatheart said:


> Funny you should mention this - I'm in the UK and my mortgage insurance policy covers me for up to 1 mil of legal cover which includes work related disputes - I'm sure any barrister here in the UK would relish taking on Amazon, I can think of a few high profile ones that would do it for free, especially when they are so hated over here for not paying their taxes. Again - just saying. I've been in court more times than I care to remember taking on the system - not entirely sure I'd want to do that again with Amazon, but our legal system over here might be better suited than the US.


I'm glad to hear UK has a better process but it still doesn't help. A legal process whether litigation or arbitration will take way to long just with the evident gathering process. If you think you can help us by finding a UK lawyer then please by all means do that. But I think what would be more productive is if you can get BBC Or Guardian to do a news report on this. Heck, get the UK Mail. That'll do the trick too. Amazon cannot sit and not react to an international news article. Can you please send them a news tip about this?


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## moxie2

AliceW said:


> I format with Vellum, I have fancy headers, drop cap and fleurons. None of that formatting comes across to my kindle with Bookerly. My understanding and my experience is that Bookerly standardises all the fonts etc so nothing fancy shows. Maybe you have a different setting somewhere else? *shrug*
> 
> People are passing on second hand rumours by saying Amazon is stripping Vellum formatting as though it's a massive conspiracy theory. Many of the issues people are laying at Amazon's door have far more ordinary origins. Like kindle settings. Or not understanding the difference between borrows and reads. There's a mob panic in here that frankly isn't productive. While people scream the sky is falling, I'm going to do my own analysis as it applies to *my* business and make my decisions based on facts, not speculation, fear mongering and Chinese whispers.


Why do you always do this? ellenoc and Andrew Murray are only trying to help. You always pounce on anyone who ever post anything expressing difficulties, and judging them. Not matter what they're upset about, it's always their fault. It's always because they must have inferior products. And the problem must be them because YOU are not affected by the same problem. Their complaints are never legitimate because YOU resolved it for yourself. Fine. You made your point. You do everything right and we don't. We're just whiners and crybabies. You're perfect and the rest of us are not. Now can you please have some mercy and let the rest of us stupid/lazy/inferior mortals talk to each other and try to find our way?


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## Nic

Atlantisatheart said:


> They have a UK headquarters and pay UK authors from that site which means they are bound by UK law.


Which would also apply e.g. to their Luxembourg headquarters and the European legislations regarding pseudo self-employment laws. Mind, I doubt a case could be made by those authors who are wide or non-exclusive. But KU and Prime Read could directly lead to problems, if it were brought to the attention of a couple of countries.

And if Amazon ceased to offer a whole continent access to KU or even KDP, a continent on which they want access to paying customers, the result might be the final tipping of the scale. Amazon isn't a company with such good standing in the EU given its past shenanigans. Others would jump to gobble up that market. As someone else pointed out, such things can lead to the demise of whole companies. I doubt that would be something readily embraced. As also was pointed out, good press, or the threat of a bad press can be a lever.


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## Guest

AliceW said:


> I format with Vellum, I have fancy headers, drop cap and fleurons. None of that formatting comes across to my kindle with Bookerly. My understanding and my experience is that Bookerly standardises all the fonts etc so nothing fancy shows. Maybe you have a different setting somewhere else? *shrug*
> 
> People are passing on second hand rumours by saying Amazon is stripping Vellum formatting as though it's a massive conspiracy theory. Many of the issues people are laying at Amazon's door have far more ordinary origins. Like kindle settings. Or not understanding the difference between borrows and reads. There's a mob panic in here that frankly isn't productive. While people scream the sky is falling, I'm going to do my own analysis as it applies to *my* business and make my decisions based on facts, not speculation, fear mongering and Chinese whispers.


I am not passing on second hand rumors... perhaps, though, I am passing on second hand facts. These facts come from authors who have been affected. Personally, I like to know what bumps could crop up so I can avoid them and adapt. As much as I'm no fan of 'the sky is falling' attitude, I also hate burying my head in the sand. I like to know my options. We can all agree on the one thing, that this whole thing is a mystery.
Anyway, YOU make your own choices and I will make mine. You dont have to police me, just move on and ignore me. But let me make one thing abundantly clear, I have no reason to make up stories. I dont enjoy gossip and drama. I like to get paid like anyone else.
Have a great weekend.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Where can you see 'borrows' as opposed to 'page reads' ?


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## 75845

If you want to talk about social media or email campaigns think back to the time Amazon took on Hachette and lost. KDP asked us authors to email the Hachette US CEO and many did (I did saying ignore all those fanboys and just keep doing what you're doing) and apparently Bezos did approve of the email campaign, even though for many it sunk Amazon's business reputation. Big name self-publishers started a change.org petition which did not go viral and achieved nothing except maybe a parenthesis in a NYT article. In the end the Big 5 got the deal they wanted and new ebook prices on Amazon shot up. KDP's email fiasco came at a time when Amazon was losing the public relations war. That is what Amazon will worry about. They lost the PR war because it was much loved authors vs capitalist tech behemoth. It would be hard to replicate that situation.

I think for those of you losing big amounts that Mark Dawson is half right. A waiting game is preferable not because it will pass, but because it is better to fight these battles after the faults are fixed and you can say to Amazon, "Okay you've more time on your hands now, so where's our money?"


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## GeneDoucette

AlexaKang said:


> Just chiming in on one bit that may be helpful to the conversation here.
> 
> Amazon is not afraid of a lawsuit by us. It is not. A lawsuit will cost way too much money for a majority of us so unless a real big hitter KU all-star here decides to file suit and put his/her money in to pay a lawyer, it's not going to happen. (In that case Amazon would probably find it much cheaper to settle and put an NDA gag on that author, and both would walk away happy unless that author wants to be a martar and never do business on Amazon again.)
> 
> Amazon has a battalion of lawyers in-house and outside ready to defend at the moment of a filing by any of us. And good luck trying to find a lawyer or law firm who would think it's a good idea to take on Amazon. No lawyer would touch this with a ten foot pole without a very hefty retainer. You better be Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, next action movie: Elon Musk v. Jeff Bezo.
> 
> Then there'll be thousands of years of evidence gathering, which the Amazon army of lawyers will react by stall and stall, and the data provided will fill a warehouse and be unreadable and uninterpretable, and by the time anything comes to anything, this whole thing would have blown over already.
> 
> So forget the legal talks. What would really get Amazon to act is viral social media, if you all are so inclined. Start tweeting. Keep tweeting. If you know a journalist of a news channel blogger and. can convince them to write about it, and they report on and and tweet some more, Amazon will have to act.


In the banking industry (where my full time job is) this is called reputational risk. That's something Amazon will care about, but the aforementioned heavy hitter has to be involved.


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## A past poster

GeneDoucette said:


> In the banking industry (where my full time job is) this is called reputational risk. That's something Amazon will care about, but the aforementioned heavy hitter has to be involved.


I think you've nailed it: reputational risk is huge for any company, including Amazon, but why does a heavy hitter have to be involved? Look at what has happened to Wells Fargo. They hurt millions of people, and it got publicity. Now the reputation of the bank is down the tubes. There are probably several thousand authors on this board, but there are thousands more whose books have been involved in what has happened who probably aren't aware of what's been going on. They're probably thinking that their low numbers are seasonal or that their books are failing.


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## sela

Look, peoples, Amazon has 80%+ share of the indie market and almost that much of the book market itself. It is the elephant to our flea.

We indie authors are like krill to Amazon's whale. Millions of tiny bits of revenue that add up to a mouthful of money and there are another 3,000 books published every day. We're not going to have much of any impact -- even if a few dozen ganged up and protested publicly -- because most of us can't afford not to use Amazon KDP and the only thing that would have an effect was if the krill went extinct. Even then, Amazon has trad-publishers and every other thing they sell in the Everything Store if publishing stopped tomorrow.

Even the big indies can't afford to leave Amazon. Amazon, however, can afford to lose a few big name indie authors who take their toys and leave. There are new big hitters made every week, month and year. 

That's life in the marketplace. It's a battle. Gird your loins appropriately.


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## KelliWolfe

Sela, do you ever get tired of being right?


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## sela

KelliWolfe said:


> Sela, do you ever get tired of being right?


LOL I wish that was true, because then I wouldn't make so many mistakes in life.


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## CozyReads

KelliWolfe said:


> Another interesting question is what stripping out this formatting is doing to their KENPC counts.


FYI - despite the pretty stuff being stripped, the basic Vellum formatting wasn't touched and my KENPC count was on target.



Brad West said:


> Can you get in touch with us and send us a pointer to your book? We'd like to see what's happening here.
> 
> A common problem users encounter is that when Amazon first generates a Look Inside, it will be in the older mobi7 format, which can't display drop caps or the images used for ornamental breaks. It can take a few days before Amazon generates a version of your Look Inside with the full formatting.
> 
> A downloaded book (or even just a sample) should display all the formatting you expect. Please let us know if that's not the case.


My downloaded sample in the Kindle cloud reader didn't have the drop caps or other graphical elements. I'll double check this on my actual Kindle and will be in touch via the Contact Us form on your site!


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## Brad West

SweetReads said:


> My downloaded sample in the Kindle cloud reader didn't have the drop caps or other graphical elements.


The Cloud Reader is one place where Amazon continues to use its older mobi7 format, which cannot display drop caps, ornaments, etc. Consider it the equivalent of a first-generation Kindle.

Here's more on the difference between this older format and formats like KF8, and where Amazon continues to use mobi7:
https://help.vellum.pub/kindleformats/

We'd expect that a sample sent to a device (or just to the Kindle app for Mac) would display the formatting you expect, but yes, please contact us if you see otherwise.


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## Cherise

Sela said:


> Look, peoples, Amazon has 80%+ share of the indie market and almost that much of the book market itself. It is the elephant to our flea.
> 
> We indie authors are like krill to Amazon's whale. Millions of tiny bits of revenue that add up to a mouthful of money and there are another 3,000 books published every day. We're not going to have much of any impact -- even if a few dozen ganged up and protested publicly -- because most of us can't afford not to use Amazon KDP and the only thing that would have an effect was if the krill went extinct. Even then, Amazon has trad-publishers and every other thing they sell in the Everything Store if publishing stopped tomorrow.
> 
> Even the big indies can't afford to leave Amazon. Amazon, however, can afford to lose a few big name indie authors who take their toys and leave. There are new big hitters made every week, month and year.
> 
> That's life in the marketplace. It's a battle. Gird your loins appropriately.


OK, you made me look up krill, and it is the family prawns belong to. 

And yeah, like Dalya before her, Sela's right.


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## Ebook Itch

You think we've got it tough now? You need to read this book and grok its contents...The future is bright for writers. I can't think of a single time in the history of the world that it's been a better time to be a writer. Here's one for the writers...

*FICTION FACTORY*

I.

_AUT FICTION, AUT NULLUS._

"Well, my dear," said John Milton Edwards, miserably uncertain and turning to appeal to his wife, "which shall it be - to write or not to write?"

"To write," was the answer, promptly and boldly, "to do nothing else but write."

John Milton wanted her to say that, and yet he did not. Her conviction, orally expressed, had all the ring of true metal; yet her husband, reflecting his own inner perplexities, heard a false note suggesting the base alloy of uncertainty.

"Hadn't we better think it over?" he quibbled.

"You've been thinking it over for two years, John, and this month is the first time your returns from your writing have ever been more than your salary at the office. If you can be so successful when you are obliged to work nights and Sundays - and most of the time with your wits befogged by office routine - what could you not do if you spent ALL your time in your Fiction Factory?"

"It may be," ventured John Milton, "that I could do better work, snatching a few precious moments from those everlasting pay-rolls, than by giving all my time and attention to my private Factory."

"Is that logical?" inquired Mrs. John Milton.

"I don't know, my dear, whether it's logical or not. We're dealing with a psychological mystery that has never been broken to harness. Suppose I have the whole day before me and sit down at my typewriter to write a story. Well and good. But getting squared away with a fresh sheet over the platen isn't the whole of it. The Happy Idea must be evolved. What if the Happy Idea does not come when I am ready for it? Happy Ideas, you know, have a disagreeable habit of hiding out. There's no hard and fast rule, that I am aware, for capturing a Happy Idea at just the moment it may be most in demand. There's lightning in a change of work, the sort of lightning that clears the air with a tonic of inspiration. When I'm paymastering the hardest I seem to be almost swamped with ideas for the story mill. Query: Will the mill grind out as good a grist if it grinds continuously? If I were sure..."

"It stands to reason," Mrs. Edwards maintained stoutly, "that if you can make $125 a month running the mill nights and Sundays, you ought to be able to make a good deal more than that with all the week days added."

"Provided," John Milton qualified, "my fountain of inspiration will flow as freely when there is nothing to hinder it as it does now when I have it turned off for twelve hours out of the twenty-four."

"Why shouldn't it?"

"I don't know, my dear," John Milton admitted, "unless it transpires that my inspiration isn't strong enough to be drawn on steadily."

"Fudge," exclaimed Mrs. Edwards.

"And then," her husband proceeded, "let us consider another phase of the question. The demand may fall off. The chances are that it WILL fall off the moment the gods become aware of the fact that I am depending on the demand for our bread and butter. Whenever a thing becomes absolutely essential to you, Fate immediately obliterates every trail that leads to it, and you go wandering desperately back and forth, getting more and more discouraged until-"

"Until you drop in your tracks," broke in Mrs. Edwards, "and give up - a quitter."

"Quitter" is a mean word. There's something about it that jostles you, and treads on your toes.

"I don't think I'd prove a quitter," said John Milton, "even if I did get lost in a labyrinth of hard luck. It's the idea of losing you along with me that hurts."

"I'll risk that."

Continue --> https://www.amazon.com/Fiction-Factory-John-Milton-Edwards-ebook/dp/B00SIBGCIC


----------



## sela

emilycantore said:


> Perhaps, but we're all suppliers of unique products. I want the new Hugh Howey and not the readalike. Authors leaving KU can have an outsize impact - especially if a reader loves their books.
> 
> When I joined KU as a reader I checked what titles I could borrow. I joined up although I very nearly didn't because many authors I love weren't in the program.
> 
> For as much as there are genres and readalikes, people want certain authors and will check if they can borrow before deciding on an ongoing subscription.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Amanda M Lee could significantly affect KU subscriber numbers all by herself! Throw a few more of the big cozy authors in there and although we are tiny compared to Amazon, we can materially affect KU subscriber numbers.
> 
> As a reader I've considered cancelling my subscription because there is only *just* enough titles in KU that I'm interested in. All it takes is a few of those KU authors to go wide for their next release and me, mecurial customer, will unsub.


I agree with you, but the problem is that we are disparate as indie authors. We are individual business people. We have a tiny tidbit of power vis a vis Amazon. There are new authors publishing for the first time every day. If you look at the top 100 bestsellers, they are almost 90% KU, Amazon Imprint or Trade Published. Indies outside of KU have little visibility at least in the bestsellers lists. That means that KU looks pret-ty darn necessary for anyone starting out as an indie. Even if Amanda left, that would only shunt a few new lesser selling authors in her category to the top to replace her. It would take a Hugh Howey-led revolt, along with Konrath and other seriously well-known and biggies before Amazon would stand up and take notice.

That's not going to happen.

Look at what happened to all the mom and pop stores when Walmart took over. Dead. Couldn't compete. It was sell your product and sell it for cheap through Walmart or have your business fail - unless you could sell yourself as a boutique product or higher end product.

Each indie has to do what they think is best for their business and their stage of career. If there are problems with any aspect of a publisher's business, it's important for us indies to talk to each other so we are informed and act accordingly. But sadly, I don't see that we can do much other than alert Amazon of the issues we experience. I believe Amazon wants to make as much money as it can -- and that indies have to use Amazon if they want the same. Amazon is using growth as a means to achieve digital retail dominance in the longer term. What it does will not necessarily be best for any or all of us. So we have to always and only think of our own best interest.

For me, that meant being exclusive when I started out as an indie and was finding and building my audience, and then going wide when I reached a critical mass. I still cycle books in and out of KU when sales start to slump on other retailers and between times when I can get a Bookbub for my permafrees or boxed sets. I am considering launching a series specifically for KU and seeing if I can exploit KU's increased visibility. I wouldn't hesitate to take anything wide when I saw Amazon sales falling and my own promotional efforts not amounting to much. As large as it is, KU is only a part of Amazon's book business. It is a hungry but small part of the overall market for books. To base your entire business on KU is great when starting out and when you are killing it like Amanda, but for others, at a later stage of their careers, going wide may be the wiser move in the long term.

BUT who can say? This business is still in the middle of a disruption. There is no crystal ball we can use to see down the line a few years. You have to be ready to pivot on a dime in this business. Luckily, KU is only for 90 days at a time.


----------



## Cherise

Boyd said:


> I just tested this out
> 
> Cloud Reader does not show vellum's formatting. The Kindle app on my Samsung S6 does show the vellum formatting.


Can someone test a new book and see if Page Flip works on a newly uploaded Vellum formatted book with drop caps or SVG embellishments uploaded as a Vellum mobi?

That's the question pertinent to this thread. If we can disable Page Flip, then maybe we can bring our page reads back up.

Up thread, someone said Amazon was making these books Page Flip compatible upon upload. Now we wonder if that was just in the cloud and not on devices. Also, we wonder if it is device dependent. Might Page Flip work on these on Kindles but not in the Kindle app, etc.


----------



## CruiseQueen

Sam Kates said:


> I released a novella two weeks ago. For the first week, I had page reads averaging 50 per day (I know, prawny, but still) and then zilch. Until reading this thread, I thought it was down to my poor visibility (and it could yet be), but maybe not. I'm afraid I can't assist with e-mailing Am because I have no historic data to present an argument - just thought I'd share here to show that it might be affecting us lesser hitters, too.


Very dispiriting. I too am a new author. I've had a small but steady number of sales since publishing in June this year (22 to date) and initially was getting regular page reads across both titles. Since 3rd September, no page reads at all, yet sales have continued. I just find it really difficult to believe I'm not getting ANY page reads whatsoever any more. I've emailed Customer Support but they just said they'd checked and the count was accurate.


----------



## GeneDoucette

Marian said:


> I think you've nailed it: reputational risk is huge for any company, including Amazon, but why does a heavy hitter have to be involved? Look at what has happened to Wells Fargo. They hurt millions of people, and it got publicity. Now the reputation of the bank is down the tubes. There are probably several thousand authors on this board, but there are thousands more whose books have been involved in what has happened who probably aren't aware of what's been going on. They're probably thinking that their low numbers are seasonal or that their books are failing.


Sure. But the article exposing Wells Fargo came out three years ago, exposing a practice two decades old. It's only in the news now because the news article from three years ago led to a state attorney general investigation, which led to the federal CFPB fine, which was news. Wells Fargo's mess was twenty years in coming. I don't think anyone here wants to start from the grass roots. What you want is someone who will publicly and loudly embarrass Amazon, but that someone should have a voice already.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Has the press gotten wind of this yet?  I'm not finding much of anything when I Google it.


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## Guest

Me neither... it is like a dry land of info.


----------



## CozyReads

Boyd said:


> I just tested this out
> 
> Cloud Reader does not show vellum's formatting. The Kindle app on my Samsung S6 does show the vellum formatting.


I just tested my book, too, and this is exactly what I found. No fancy graphics in Cloud Reader, but on my oldish Kindle, the fancy formatting is there.

False alarm on my end - sorry about that.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

NotAPenguin said:


> Has the press gotten wind of this yet? I'm not finding much of anything when I Google it.


Just for curiosity's sake, who do you think is going to cover this and why do you think it's a story? On a local level it appeals to no one so weekly and smaller dailies are out. As a business story, the interest is also muted so regional newspapers will focus on the stories most important to them (like the auto business, crops, etc.). This is important to authors, who as a group, don't account for very much of the population. Also, it's not important to all authors. This is massively important to a small group of people and of little or no interest to the masses. There aren't any facts here, no internal documents, no proof.
The true problem is that almost every case needs to be looked at individually and broken down because there are a multitude of reasons for lower numbers. I personally always have a crappy September. My numbers don't seem off for this time of year and I've got a ton of books to compare data. September is always my worst month. On another, some people are saying they went from 50 page reads a day to none. I can understand being upset about that -- I truly can and am not minimizing feelings or how this is affecting people -- but 50 page reads a day is essentially one reader in most instances. So if the volume is lower in September and one person doesn't read when they usually might ... .
The truth is, each case is different. For the individual who saw 30 percent sales and read drops and then said her book was showing up in erotica when she didn't put it there, that answer seems pretty clear. The bots picked up on that book and put it in erotica, which cuts visibility. This wouldn't happen if Amazon could trust people to put their stuff in the right categories but that's not going to happen so they need crawlers. So Amazon has to police the site and (of course!) that word triggered the bots. Is it page flip or less visibility?
Each book has to be looked at as a separate entity. Books are not popular forever. They don't stay at the same levels forever. Promotions change things. Cliffs change things. Nothing is ever even, never level, in this business.
Is something going on? I have no idea. I'm not going to fight with everyone because I don't believe the same things others do. That's simply a way for people to call me names and hate on me and I'm kind of tired of that. I do feel that there seems to be a sort of mass hysteria picking up here. It reminds me of an episode of "America's Next Top Model." In that episode, one of the models got a skin rash on her face and one of the other models talked to her mother at home and her mother mentioned a story on the news about flesh eating bacteria. Before you knew it, all of the other models were screaming "flesh eating bacteria" and refused to go near her. What was it? Impetigo. It happens in stressful situations. It's not catchy unless you're rubbing up against someone. So, after being diagnosed, the photographer decided not to put a human child at risk (the models were doing milk ads with toddlers that week) and had the model pose with a doll. Instead of being relieved because it wasn't flesh eating bacteria, the other models turned on the woman because they said she was getting special treatment by posing with a doll. For some odd reason, I cannot stop thinking about the episode when I read this thread.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

So far three people I've talked to have gotten this exact email in response in inquiries. Has anyone else gotten this yet?

_Hello,

Thanks for providing these details. The business team audited our systems using the specific information you shared regarding pages read and sales and did not find any systematic issues impacting your results. Keep in mind that we may make adjustments in the future based on findings from our routine audits. Please note that individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

Regarding Page Flip, this is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior.

We've completed our September audit and updates and did not find any systemic issues. We perform ongoing audits to ensure the accuracy of our reporting.

Sales rank is a complicated metric which includes many factors such as the popularity of other books being released and purchased at that time. Our data shows that sales rank patterns vary over time based on factors like the popularity of new releases, seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors. They are important inputs to how we continue to invent on behalf of our Kindle customers._

"Your concerns have been noted and will be promptly ignored."

They're sticking to no problem in September so people should probably asking "what about October?"

Like every official statement they make, this is carefully worded.

I mean, "in no material way" is meaningless. What's a material way? Who decides what material is?


----------



## Cherise

SweetReads said:


> I just tested my book, too, and this is exactly what I found. No fancy graphics in Cloud Reader, but on my oldish Kindle, the fancy formatting is there.
> 
> False alarm on my end - sorry about that.


But does Page Flip work on it? That is the question.


----------



## tresero

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> So far three people I've talked to have gotten this exact email in response in inquiries. Has anyone else gotten this yet?
> 
> _Hello,
> 
> Thanks for providing these details. The business team audited our systems using the specific information you shared regarding pages read and sales and did not find any systematic issues impacting your results. Keep in mind that we may make adjustments in the future based on findings from our routine audits. Please note that individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.
> 
> Regarding Page Flip, this is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior.
> 
> We've completed our September audit and updates and did not find any systemic issues. We perform ongoing audits to ensure the accuracy of our reporting.
> 
> Sales rank is a complicated metric which includes many factors such as the popularity of other books being released and purchased at that time. Our data shows that sales rank patterns vary over time based on factors like the popularity of new releases, seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.
> 
> We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors. They are important inputs to how we continue to invent on behalf of our Kindle customers._
> 
> "Your concerns have been noted and will be promptly ignored."
> 
> They're sticking to no problem in September so people should probably asking "what about October?"
> 
> Like every official statement they make, this is carefully worded.
> 
> I mean, "in no material way" is meaningless. What's a material way? Who decides what material is?


Yes, I just got this after a week and my initial contact was about a new book released in October. In other words, zero relevancy to my stated issue.

This is the new normal, get used to it.


----------



## boxer44

I just got that same "canned response" from Amz when I asked about 'flip' and pages read.  Hmmm, time to escalate??


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Did you contact KDP support for that? Go over their heads and email Jeff Bezos directly.

That canned answer was written by their legal department, in all likelihood.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Oh this is a good idea. OK so let's start emailing Jeff. Should we also ask our readers to? 

Maybe a bullet list of salient points we can all reference would be helpful


----------



## rickblackmon

I just received the same canned answer to my second submission to support as many of you have received. "The business team audited our systems using the specific information you shared regarding pages read and sales and did not find any systematic issues impacting your results. Please note that individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc." I feel as if I have been talked down to. I immediately forwarded the email to [email protected]  I think that's the correct address.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Okay so maybe something like:

Entire community seeing dramatic decrease that has no historical comparison

Readers complaining about page flip and saying they read in it 

Many devices opening in page flip mode 

Tests reveal that page count is inaccurate when flipping BACKWARDS book counts only to the point where you close the book at ( I believe this is a major major factor and designed to stop spammers)

Unilaterally penalizing legitimate author is for scammers 

Anything else?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

People who are having this issue should seek to escalate it with the [email protected] address, imho. So give them the same info you tried to give KDP. Tell them you tried to work with KDP and you're being blown off.

Show them your graphs, spreadsheets and math. Anyone who can interpret those things can clearly see something is happening on our end. The more detail you provide, the better.

KDP may be stonewalling those of you who email in to cover their own end. Talking to their frontline support isn't working, so it's time to go over their heads.

I'd stress that your'e seeing a problem with October releases, first and foremost.


----------



## RuthNestvold

I got about the first half of that canned answer, and that when I wrote back with Page Flip not counting pages read and breach of contract. They let me out of KDP Select pretty fast after that.  

So glad to not have to give away my books for half a penny a piece anymore!


----------



## Guest

I'm sorry, I don't care if people smite me, but this is verging on criminal. Basically some CAN read a full book in page flip. So you may get 1 page... half a cent? Or NOTHING.
This is disgusting.
I hope they fix it soon.


----------



## Going Incognito

Hey, I just got that same email. Must be 'answer the peons already, would you?' day. All three of my canned responses have been to emails I did send to [email protected] BTW. So...


----------



## Emma Smith

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Just for curiosity's sake, who do you think is going to cover this and why do you think it's a story? On a local level it appeals to no one so weekly and smaller dailies are out. As a business story, the interest is also muted so regional newspapers will focus on the stories most important to them (like the auto business, crops, etc.). This is important to authors, who as a group, don't account for very much of the population. Also, it's not important to all authors. This is massively important to a small group of people and of little or no interest to the masses. There aren't any facts here, no internal documents, no proof.
> The true problem is that almost every case needs to be looked at individually and broken down because there are a multitude of reasons for lower numbers. I personally always have a crappy September. My numbers don't seem off for this time of year and I've got a ton of books to compare data. September is always my worst month. On another, some people are saying they went from 50 page reads a day to none. I can understand being upset about that -- I truly can and am not minimizing feelings or how this is affecting people -- but 50 page reads a day is essentially one reader in most instances. So if the volume is lower in September and one person doesn't read when they usually might ... .
> The truth is, each case is different. For the individual who saw 30 percent sales and read drops and then said her book was showing up in erotica when she didn't put it there, that answer seems pretty clear. The bots picked up on that book and put it in erotica, which cuts visibility. This wouldn't happen if Amazon could trust people to put their stuff in the right categories but that's not going to happen so they need crawlers. So Amazon has to police the site and (of course!) that word triggered the bots. Is it page flip or less visibility?
> Each book has to be looked at as a separate entity. Books are not popular forever. They don't stay at the same levels forever. Promotions change things. Cliffs change things. Nothing is ever even, never level, in this business.
> Is something going on? I have no idea. I'm not going to fight with everyone because I don't believe the same things others do. That's simply a way for people to call me names and hate on me and I'm kind of tired of that. I do feel that there seems to be a sort of mass hysteria picking up here. It reminds me of an episode of "America's Next Top Model." In that episode, one of the models got a skin rash on her face and one of the other models talked to her mother at home and her mother mentioned a story on the news about flesh eating bacteria. Before you knew it, all of the other models were screaming "flesh eating bacteria" and refused to go near her. What was it? Impetigo. It happens in stressful situations. It's not catchy unless you're rubbing up against someone. So, after being diagnosed, the photographer decided not to put a human child at risk (the models were doing milk ads with toddlers that week) and had the model pose with a doll. Instead of being relieved because it wasn't flesh eating bacteria, the other models turned on the woman because they said she was getting special treatment by posing with a doll. For some odd reason, I cannot stop thinking about the episode when I read this thread.


I fully understand that you are one of the top authors on Amazon, and I am currently less than krill. I am not writing to you about my own data, which isn't worth mentioning, but in order to alert you to the terrible problems affecting romance authors. Many top romance authors have seen their earnings decimated over the past month or so despite having books comfortably esconsced within the top 100 in the Amazon store. Simply put, these authors are getting page reads that are only a minute fraction of what they would ordinarily get for books with the same ranking. These are authors who have lost anywhere from thousands to tens of thousands of dollars in income over the past two months - most were affected after the mysterious September 5th change, a few others felt the pinch beginning as far back as June/July. These are authors with very dedicated readerships, their fans are voracious readers who read books much faster than general readers, and consume several romance novels per day. Personally, I'm far more of a romance reader than a writer-- I can easily read romance at well over 600 words per minute, and I make good use of the buffet of books on offer in KU. My reading habits haven't suddenly changed, and a quick glance at romance groups on Goodreads and Facebook shows that there are thousands of voracious romance readers out there just like me, so what the heck is happening with page reads? It is impossible that romance has suddenly dried up as a popular category. It would appear that there is or has been something very odd going on related to pages read under Kindle Unlimited.

So far, no one can figure out what is happening. Kudos to you if your income was not affected, but given the extraordinarily sudden and gravely precipitous income drop for so many successful authors, you appear to be one of the lucky few who was not affected. I understand that you don't seem to have a dog in this fight, and don't want your name pulled into it, but there's no reason for you to make light of the misery that is affecting people-- these are authors who depend on this income to support their families. A kinder response, one that didn't attempt to apply the tainted brush of mass hysteria to authors who are truly suffering, would have been greatly appreciated.


----------



## tresero

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Did you contact KDP support for that? Go over their heads and email Jeff Bezos directly.
> 
> That canned answer was written by their legal department, in all likelihood.


Yes, it stemmed from a phone call, then the canned responses. This was from an escalation.


----------



## J.R. Tate

I finally got a response about my email I sent last weekend to Amazon...

Let me preface this with saying that I know several have already posted this response and also mentioned it... but TWO different representatives emailed me back ?? with the same exact response... which it is no mystery they have a standard, copy & paste response they are told to give everyone. Anyway, here is mine, just times it by two. Not sure why they did that...

Hello, 

Thanks for your inquiry. We looked into the concerns you expressed along with those of other authors in response to inquiries about KENPC reporting. 

We recently completed our September audit and regularly monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior. The KDP business team has not found any systematic issues impacting your results. Please note that, as always, individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

Regarding Page Flip, this is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior.

We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors.

Regards,

Ricky A 
Kindle Direct Publishing

Blah blah blah.... It's time to make some decisions.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Is it just me, or does that directly confirm there is a filter of some kind?


----------



## J.R. Tate

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Is it just me, or does that directly confirm there is a filter of some kind?


Definitely - I also wonder if they are getting so bombarded with emails from authors that they aren't able to keep up with who they are replying to and who they haven't messaged back yet. My two emails were within about twenty minutes of each other. From two different people, no less.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Emma Smith said:


> I fully understand that you are one of the top authors on Amazon, and I am currently less than krill. I am not writing to you about my own data, which isn't worth mentioning, but in order to alert you to the terrible problems affecting romance authors. Many top romance authors have seen their earnings decimated over the past month or so despite having books comfortably esconsced within the top 100 in the Amazon store. Simply put, these authors are getting page reads that are only a minute fraction of what they would ordinarily get for books with the same ranking. These are authors who have lost anywhere from thousands to tens of thousands of dollars in income over the past two months - most were affected after the mysterious September 5th change, a few others felt the pinch beginning as far back as June/July. These are authors with very dedicated readerships, their fans are voracious readers who read books much faster than general readers, and consume several romance novels per day. Personally, I'm far more of a romance reader than a writer-- I can easily read romance at well over 600 words per minute, and I make good use of the buffet of books on offer in KU. My reading habits haven't suddenly changed, and a quick glance at romance groups on Goodreads and Facebook shows that there are thousands of voracious romance readers out there just like me, so what the heck is happening with page reads? It is impossible that romance has suddenly dried up as a popular category. It would appear that there is or has been something very odd going on related to pages read under Kindle Unlimited.
> 
> So far, no one can figure out what is happening. Kudos to you if your income was not affected, but given the extraordinarily sudden and gravely precipitous income drop for so many successful authors, you appear to be one of the lucky few who was not affected. I understand that you don't seem to have a dog in this fight, and don't want your name pulled into it, but there's no reason for you to make light of the misery that is affecting people-- these are authors who depend on this income to support their families. A kinder response, one that didn't attempt to apply the tainted brush of mass hysteria to authors who are truly suffering, would have been greatly appreciated.


You mean the part where I said I understand being upset and am not trying to minimize the feelings of others?


----------



## Sam Kates

CruiseQueen said:


> Very dispiriting. I too am a new author. I've had a small but steady number of sales since publishing in June this year (22 to date) and initially was getting regular page reads across both titles. Since 3rd September, no page reads at all, yet sales have continued. I just find it really difficult to believe I'm not getting ANY page reads whatsoever any more. I've emailed Customer Support but they just said they'd checked and the count was accurate.


It's difficult to be sure with only a couple of titles in KU (like us) and without them having been in there long. It could be a dropping away in visibility - I've been around a while but struggle big time to be noticed (though hope to remedy this soon when I free up a few hours each week to concentrate on promoting) - but it could also be that we're caught up in whatever is going on at Amazon. What this thread shows is that _something_ is going on - too many authors have been affected for it to be a coincidence.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

They cast a damn wide net with their fraud detection. This is hitting everyone I know.

I can't believe this.

I'm completely shocked. I suspected it was something like this but they flat out admitted it.

They've decided our readers are fraudulent and they don't even tell us what they did.


----------



## J.R. Tate

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> They cast a damn wide net with their fraud detection. This is hitting everyone I know.
> 
> I can't believe this.
> 
> I'm completely shocked. I suspected it was something like this but they flat out admitted it.
> 
> They've decided our readers are fraudulent and they don't even tell us what they did.


I'm -very- tempted to respond to the emails I got and mention how if they are truthfully doing this because of "fraudulent activity", do they REALLY think that 90% of my readers were scamming? Because yes, like the general consensus shows of those hit by this issue, it's on average a drop of 90% of page reads. I don't want to poke the bear. Unfortunately, it feels like they have us right where they want us.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I'd ask that and forward the email to basically everybody.

That's the question, isn't it? What is fraudulent reading and how do they determine this?

Why is it so widespread? This is everybody now.


----------



## NotAPenguin

This is it. They just don't want to pay us.  I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt but now I am not. 

This is theft plain and simple. I am furious.

So now we have three confirmed issues:

1. Page flip shenanigans 

2. The scroll back page recording glitch

3. Legitimate authors penalized by overzealous (and wrong!) filtering 

I highly doubt they will fix anything and I hope we can all really let them have it over it 

We definitely need to get the press involved because they are not going to listen to us. Their rude and dismissive replies have proved that beyond a doubt


----------



## J.R. Tate

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I'd ask that and forward the email to basically everybody.
> 
> That's the question, isn't it? What is fraudulent reading and how do they determine this?
> 
> Why is it so widespread? This is everybody now.


I just replied with this:

How do you determine what is fraudulent reading activity and what isn't? My page reads drastically have been cut by about 50% to 90% and not just due to the normal downward trends of sales/series age/genre that can happen. I don't really feel like fraudulent readers would be that high of a percentage. I've talked with several authors who have noticed this.

We will see how long it takes them to respond (if they do at all.)


----------



## Emma Smith

Amanda M. Lee said:


> You mean the part where I said I understand being upset and am not trying to minimize the feelings of others?


Apologies for not understanding your comment. I suppose I didn't interpret it in the way you had intended it because it appeared to be part of a sentence about krill authors and the vagaries of not getting one's usual 50 pages a day. I didn't realize that you were expressing your sympathies to the many scared and confused authors who have just seen their livelihoods plummet, experiencing personal income drops of thousands of dollars or more in the past two months. Yes, this issue has affected the top romance earners in the store, people who regularly launch sub-100 in the entire Amazon store. But I am glad that you understand their feelings and would never try to minimize anyone's feelings by comparing their very real fears to a mass hysteria incident from a reality TV show.

There is no need to continue this conversation. I am glad that you have been unaffected by this disaster, and I hope you continue to remain unaffected by it. Your sympathies towards the rest of us, large fish and krill alike, are heartening. It's good to know that indie authors support each other.


----------



## 56139

emilycantore said:


> Apparently PageFlip breaks Audiosync, which is just more evidence pages/percentages aren't being tracked as a reader progresses. If it was then audiosync would be able to keep up.


This is very interesting. I'm following this thread very closely even though I am not in KU. OK, two things...

First, this Whispersynch thing. I had a BIG book release in Audio in June (isn't that when pageflip started?) and it was never synced up to the ebook, even though it released WITH Whyspersynch - with the discount and everything. This book was with a publisher and so I didn't worry too much about it. Yes, I was annoyed. My fans were annoyed, but whatever. I was busy so I forgot all about it until I just read your post.

I'm not sure what this has to do with everything yet, but it's definitely related.

Second. I'm a BIG romance author. I'm wide and have been almost exclusively since I started writing. I have had a few books in and out of KU at different times, but I'm a wide author. I think this is affecting SALES as well. My sales are pretty steady but I have a system in place to ensure that. Other authors at my same level... not so much. Most of my KU friends aren't saying much, but the ones who are are reporting everything you guys are saying here. And just looking at ranking I know how many of the Top Non-KU Romance Authors are selling and I know they are ALL down in ranking and in sales.

Even though I am still making above my "freak-out" threshold for monthly sales money, this latest release might not be as big as the last one in August, even with the SAME number of sales. There's lots of reasons that might be - October is a pretty competitive month for romance. It's a book four in a five-book series. It's not cont, it's suspense etc etc etc. But I have a long sales history and looking at it now, yes. Something is wrong. Very, very wrong.

This is not my first rodeo with Amazon's lies. I've got a lot of personal experience in dealing with their dishonesty - they will SAY ANYTHING they feel is necessary to shut you up or keep you happy. But I'm floored at the level of fraud happening here.

This is most definitely related to the scam problem in April, the PageFlip change, and the Amazon Prime reading. I have a call with them next week. If I get anything new out of her, I will post.


----------



## KelliWolfe

This is depressingly similar to the shift to KU 2.0 last year. Certain genres hit much harder than others, with many seeing drops of 90% or more of their income. Is this just going to be a yearly thing, now?


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## thesmallprint

Take your books out of KU. I have.


----------



## pwtucker

Another ECR response to report here. I wrote in arguing that if Page Flip is allowing readers to access my content in any form beyond the Sample available on my product page WITHOUT my getting paid for it, regardless of quantity, then that is a breach of both faith and contract. That it doesn't matter if they read 10 pages or the whole book. What matters is that in principle Page Flip allows readers to read my content without my getting paid.

This was their response:

Hello,

We are unable to remove books from the Page Flip feature.

Per our previous response, page flip is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design.

We are unable to provide additional information in this area.

Regards,

Jason White
Kindle Direct Publishing


----------



## BloodHound

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Is it just me, or does that directly confirm there is a filter of some kind?


That's what I've been saying all along. They've got something new in the algo that is bumping page reads down or targeting them as fraud even though it's legit. They've changed the rules for thier benefit and that's criminal.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

PeanutButterCracker, thank you so much for talking to Amazon.

If I may I suggest you ask them straight up how they mark reads as fraudulent, why so many are dropping, and how we avoid it.

That's my question here.

_*What is "legit" reading activity and what is "fraudulent"?*_

If it's *legit* and they *want us* to do it, why won't they tell us?


----------



## Emma Smith

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I'd ask that and forward the email to basically everybody.
> 
> That's the question, isn't it? What is fraudulent reading and how do they determine this?
> 
> Why is it so widespread? This is everybody now.


Yes- this seems to be a very important point!

Maybe Amazon's bots don't realize how fast we read? Voracious romance readers seem to read much faster than the 200-400 words per minute that most studies attribute to average readers. I read at over 600 words per minute, and can go even faster if I skim. Us romance readers pretty much fly through books.

Maybe Amazon's bots don't realize how many books voracious readers read daily? I don't watch much TV, I spend my leisure time reading. I can easily read one book a day, even two or three, especially if they are around 250 pages or less.

Has Amazon recently started flagging voracious readers with legit KU subscriptions as scammers just because they read fast, read often and leave a lot of book reviews? Are authors no longer getting credited with page reads from voracious readers?


----------



## J.R. Tate

I did ask the question of how they are determining what is fraudulent and what isn't... It was through email though, so I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for a response, considering it took them almost a week for the initial question.


----------



## Indiecognito

Well, here's my two-part theory:

New Releases: the spike in reads that should be there is interpreted as "fraudulent," so a lot of those pages read never get recorded. That would explain the odd ratios between sales and reads. It also means a new release is inherently worthless in terms of numbers.

Editing and re-uploading a file affecting reads: triggers something. The system needs to ensure that the book is still legit, but somehow this is broken. It's penalizing these books, as if they've been tampered with.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

The author communities are on fire wit this.

I just heard that some *very* big names are seeing the same kind of huge, inexplicable downturns.


----------



## Nothing To See

Emma Smith said:


> Yes- this seems to be a very important point!
> 
> Maybe Amazon's bots don't realize how fast we read? Voracious romance readers seem to read much faster than the 200-400 words per minute that most studies attribute to average readers. We can pretty much fly through books.
> 
> Maybe Amazon's bots don't realize how many books voracious readers read daily? I don't watch much TV, I spend my leisure time reading. I can easily read one book a day, even two or three, especially if they are around 250 pages or less.
> 
> Has Amazon recently started flagging voracious readers with legit KU subscriptions as scammers just because they read fast, read often and leave a lot of book reviews? Are authors no longer getting credited with page reads from voracious readers?


Yes, this would be my question. If there's a filtering system in place, they either figured out a way of determining reads coming from bot accounts (in which case, awesome) or they've decided that certain things (e.g., reading fast, often, and leaving reviews) should discount those reads as fraudulent.


----------



## Guest

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> The author communities are on fire wit this.
> 
> I just heard that some *very* big names are seeing the same kind of huge, inexplicable downturns.


When you mean, big names, you mean names NOT just in romance? Any groups you can point me toward? I WANT this to explode until Amazon fix this.


----------



## 75845

It wouldn't surprise me if the go ahead for Page Flip was in part due to the hope that good bits only romance readers would use Page Flip and Amazon would not have to pay the authors so much. That was probably what lay behind Scribd's romance cull, but it would mean that romance authors risk KU not just pulverizing sales, but also the income that compensates for the sale. I guess that the tech teams mostly use large format smartphones and don't realize that the small screens most of us use are of such high pixel ratings that reading novels in their entirety is not only possible, but with the easier page swipe preferable for the likes of me who has to stab at the margin five times in normal mode to get to the next page. So this will effect all genres (and non fiction worst of all), but I would not be surprised if the Business Team primarily okayed it as a good way to cut payments to romance authors.


----------



## sela

Guys, I don't see that Amazon would do anything to discourage authors or readers from publishing or reading.

Seriously.

They may have introduced a bug into their algorithms or systems in an effort to fight the patent frauds and scams that have been poisoning KU, but to do something to deliberately deny certain authors or categories or genres page reads? I just don't see it.

They want to grow -- _everything_.

They want to grow KU subscribers, authors in KU, Prime subscribers, Prime Reading, every Amazon program. They know that the more buy in they get from customers for every program, the larger their share of customers will be for _everything_ -- eBooks, print books, audiobooks, video, music, merchandise...

Their own data shows that Prime subscribers and KU subscribers buy more other stuff in the rest of the store, so they will not deliberately muck around with their programs.

Scribd got out of romance because romance readers are so voracious that they make it unprofitable. Scribd's business model was premised on those subscribers who signed up and then forgot or didn't read enough to equal the price of subscription. Scribd couldn't make a profit with the huge consumption of romance books.

Amazon has a totally different business model that is not premised on the subscription model itself. I really think that digital books are a gateway drug -- the reefer given out for free -- that hooks the unsuspecting kid on the narcotics in the rest of the store.

I am a Prime member and I buy everything I can from Amazon because of the 2 day shipping. Seriously -- if I want something? I check Amazon first and always buy from them if the product is in the Prime system. It arrives in two days neatly packed in a pristine box. I imagine KU readers are the same. Why go to iBooks or Barnes and Noble to pay for an eBook if you can find something to read in KU? You can read even more than you normally would.

Do I think something is going on with the page reads? Sure do. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Do I think Amazon is deliberately trying to screw us over? I mean, anymore than usual? Nope. I think the page reads thing is a glitch that will be fixed once the complaints percolate up to the decision makers.

Never assume malice when incompetence (or inefficient processes) will suffice.

That said, I do think authors have to contact Amazon, let them know what they're seeing, and raise it up a level, writing to Jeff if necessary. The squeaky wheel gets oiled after all...


----------



## jchance

Sela said:


> Do I think something is going on with the page reads? Sure do. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
> 
> Do I think Amazon is deliberately trying to screw us over? I mean, anymore than usual? Nope. I think the page reads thing is a glitch that will be fixed once the complaints percolate up to the decision makers.
> 
> Never assume malice when incompetence (or inefficient processes) will suffice.


Agreed. I don't even care about the why. We're never going to get a straight answer out of Amazon anyway, because of their opaque operating policies. I just want it _fixed_.


----------



## ClaireR

So, I got the canned email response as well. Somehow I doubt they have seriously investigated each of our books, analyzed the data we sent through, and manually reviewed each problem, all suddenly on the same day. 
I have books that get low sales and reads, so easy to track the page flip issue. I just can't believe that almost everyone is borrowing my book and never read more than 1 or 2 pages. Some people, sure, but everyone? This page flip problem is huge. To me. Maybe a couple of hundred pages missed a day is an insignificant amount to Amazon, and in terms of hard cash it is, but it is not insignificant for my own self esteem. When I see a couple of hundred pages read per day, it feels good to know that a few people read and enjoyed my story that day. When I see 2 pages, I have no idea if 2 people read and enjoyed my story or if every day a couple of people decided my book sucked outright and couldn't get past the first flipped page


----------



## KelliWolfe

Even if they fix it, how do they expect anyone to ever trust their reported page read numbers again? If you publish a new book, are the page reads low because something is off with the cover or blurb, or is Amazon mis-reporting again? It's an even worse problem for new authors who don't have any kind of baseline to judge performance.

It wouldn't be so bad if they had just owned up to the problem. Software glitches people can certainly understand. It's the fact that they've lied about it from the beginning and they're continuing to do so, even as the truth of the matter slowly emerges, that's destroying their credibility. They're still insisting that there's no problem at all, even as they quietly credit tens and even hundreds of thousands of page reads at a time back to people.


----------



## 75845

Sela said:


> Guys, I don't see that Amazon would do anything to discourage authors or readers from publishing or reading.
> Seriously.
> They may have introduced a bug into their algorithms or systems in an effort to fight the patent frauds and scams that have been poisoning KU, but to do something to deliberately deny certain authors or categories or genres page reads? I just don't see it.
> They want to grow -- _everything_.
> They want to grow KU subscribers, authors in KU, Prime subscribers, Prime Reading, every Amazon program. They know that the more buy in they get from customers for every program, the larger their share of customers will be for _everything_ -- eBooks, print books, audiobooks, video, music, merchandise...


That fallacy doesn't cut it anymore since Amazon began renegotiating publisher contracts in Japan less than a month after KU launched there. Amazon does not tolerate non-profitable divisions, because profit means investment opportunities. Yes they want more KU subscribers, but they also want to keep a lid on KU expenses, which is primarily pay-outs to authors. Most of KDP's employees are non-book people and they are not interested in creating successful self-publisher careers; their sole interest is a successful Amazon. Success = income > costs. Of course they are always looking for ways to keep the costs down.

Page Flip fits right into the incompetence rather than malice trope: why should publishers complain about not being paid for pages the reader is just skimming past? They are forgetting that that author has almost certainly lost a sale once the customer downloads to borrow. If the reader bought the book they pay for every page even if they skim most pages (as in non fiction readers), but to pay only for those pages read in normal mode means that the author earns a small fraction of the sale. The presentation on adopting Page Flip would sound perfectly reasonable to non book executives as it would improve the division's bottom line. It is not so good in practice if you are the book's author or publisher.


----------



## AllyWho

emilycantore said:


> I've seen a few use the term "hysteria", which is pretty insulting. I'm down 50%. Many other authors have it just as bad or worse.
> We have evidence that the drop is widespread.


Define "widespread"? Because despite what some here want to believe, k-boards is not the entire indie community. It's not even close. Authors here are a tiny percentage of the entire community. For every person in here running around like a headless chicken, there are several others who have seen no change in patterns of reads/sales and others who are doing better than average. I have titles in KU, I have titles wide and I've not seen any discernible change. I'm in other groups where people aren't seeing anywhere near the catastrophic drops in reads some are claiming, or their drops are normal with the 30 day cliff. People affected are vocal and concerned, I get that, but they are not the majority of the indie community.

People in here are complaining about page flip, but I believe someone mentioned it was introduced in June, yet everyone is focused from mid-September onward. If page flip is such a catastrophic game changer that affected reads, why didn't people notice it from June onward? Why doesn't it affect everyone, but only a minority? There are many different issues at play, but with the prevalence of the mob mentality in here (and yes, the hysteria), multiple issues are all being rolled into one. For example, some people are complaining about a drop in pages read when it's pretty obvious from their ranks, release schedule or lack of promo that the drop is entirely normal.


----------



## ......~......

AliceW said:


> For example, some people are complaining about a drop in pages read when it's pretty obvious from their ranks, release schedule or lack of promo that the drop is entirely normal.


This.

I don't doubt some people really do have something fishy going on with their pages read, but the loudest voices complaining about this and imploring everyone to go wide like the sky is falling...well, their book ranks aren't that great to begin with. There was a guy in this thread who took his books off Amazon completely but they were all in the 3 million and over rank so I doubt he lost much by doing that.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

If this is caused by sales or borrow spikes, someone should let MRR and BookBub know their services are going to be useless now.


----------



## tresero

NeedWant said:


> This.
> 
> I don't doubt some people really do have something fishy going on with their pages read, but the loudest voices complaining about this and imploring everyone to go wide like the sky is falling...well, their book ranks aren't that great to begin with. There was a guy in this thread who took his books off Amazon completely but they were all in the 3 million and over rank so I doubt he lost much by doing that.


Ummm okay. You have no idea what my ranks are because I don't publish my pens. I'm not huge, but is 1 million page reads a month until this happened big enough? Yea, romance. Avg 4.8 stars across all books. No links to back of the book, never have.


----------



## Crystal_

I'm very uncertain about my forthcoming book and where it will be. I haven't seen problems on the scale others have but I haven't published since early August.

I urge everyone who is seeing problems to check your sales and borrows (est, of course) per day and compare them to this chart to see if the totals look right. If borrows are down but totals are normal there may genuinely be a drop in KU readers/subscribers.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ETnMeRhc5gU/V_VoPB6z7-I/AAAAAAAAE98/Tv8g7P7z7FgRhxaBa7Dbu0ABiP--KTa6wCLcB/s400/DG%2Bsales-rank%2Bchart.jpg


----------



## ......~......

tresero said:


> Ummm okay. You have no idea what my ranks are because I don't publish my pens. I'm not huge, but is 1 million page reads a month until this happened big enough? Yea, romance. Avg 4.8 stars across all books. No links to back of the book, never have.


Well, as I said:



> I don't doubt some people really do have something fishy going on with their pages read


I can only judge by what people who have their books linked or use their author names here. You don't seem to have either, so I can't really speak for your situation.


----------



## Anna Drake

emilycantore said:


> This will probably not happen though...
> 
> I know this whole experience is shocking and full of fear but it's time to look at the idea: _this is the new normal_.
> 
> This is what I think, too. If it were a just glitch, Amazon, which is stuffed full with programming wizards, would have it fixed by now. Their responses are wonky, and no place do they say there is something they think needs to be repaired. Not even when pagefilp is mentioned as a possible problem. Welcome to KU3.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Amazon has broken things so many times that I'm just not buying that they could have fixed it by now.

They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into admitting that they did something.

Last time they implemented an anti-fraud measure, they not only informed us but bragged about it, because authors were complaining.

Something really fishy is going on here.


----------



## ......~......

emilycantore said:


> Are you serious? You're attacking authors with your claims. You have zero evidence. Yeah, I could post a graph showing the same decline as others but for what? To show some anonymous poster what they can already find in this thread?
> 
> What is the point of this? Why are you bothering to participate in this thread at all?


I'm not attacking anyone.

And yeah I'm anonymous but so are most of the posters here that are talking about the evils of KU/Amazon. So I don't really see what your point is?

You've already told several posters to stop posting here or just to shut up about this. I'll post wherever I please unless a mod tells me otherwise. Just because I don't think the sky is falling doesn't mean I shouldn't participate in this thread. And frankly, it's reactions like yours that get threads like this locked. So let's be civil and not jump people's throats, okay?


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks, locking thread to give a cooling off period while I review.  Chill for a few minutes.

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Sam Kates

Please let's not get this thread locked. Please let's stop being personal. 

(Yeah, I could be one of the people Amanda referred to as losing his 50 reads a day because my one reader finished my book, but I don't intend remaining invisible for ever and I need to know how this plays out for future reference. So, please, be nice.)

ETA: Betsy, you locked this while I was typing - don't know how my post took or I'm able to edit it?


----------



## katrina46

Sela said:


> Guys, I don't see that Amazon would do anything to discourage authors or readers from publishing or reading.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> They may have introduced a bug into their algorithms or systems in an effort to fight the patent frauds and scams that have been poisoning KU, but to do something to deliberately deny certain authors or categories or genres page reads? I just don't see it.
> 
> They want to grow -- _everything_.
> 
> They want to grow KU subscribers, authors in KU, Prime subscribers, Prime Reading, every Amazon program. They know that the more buy in they get from customers for every program, the larger their share of customers will be for _everything_ -- eBooks, print books, audiobooks, video, music, merchandise...
> 
> Their own data shows that Prime subscribers and KU subscribers buy more other stuff in the rest of the store, so they will not deliberately muck around with their programs.
> 
> Scribd got out of romance because romance readers are so voracious that they make it unprofitable. Scribd's business model was premised on those subscribers who signed up and then forgot or didn't read enough to equal the price of subscription. Scribd couldn't make a profit with the huge consumption of romance books.
> 
> Amazon has a totally different business model that is not premised on the subscription model itself. I really think that digital books are a gateway drug -- the reefer given out for free -- that hooks the unsuspecting kid on the narcotics in the rest of the store.
> 
> I am a Prime member and I buy everything I can from Amazon because of the 2 day shipping. Seriously -- if I want something? I check Amazon first and always buy from them if the product is in the Prime system. It arrives in two days neatly packed in a pristine box. I imagine KU readers are the same. Why go to iBooks or Barnes and Noble to pay for an eBook if you can find something to read in KU? You can read even more than you normally would.
> 
> Do I think something is going on with the page reads? Sure do. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
> 
> Do I think Amazon is deliberately trying to screw us over? I mean, anymore than usual? Nope. I think the page reads thing is a glitch that will be fixed once the complaints percolate up to the decision makers.
> 
> Never assume malice when incompetence (or inefficient processes) will suffice.
> 
> That said, I do think authors have to contact Amazon, let them know what they're seeing, and raise it up a level, writing to Jeff if necessary. The squeaky wheel gets oiled after all...


I never thought they were doing it one purpose. In fact, i think they're trying to fix it. I don't have a lot in KU, so I was only getting around 7,000 page reads a day. Then when this started I was getting around 30-100. Yesterday I got 15,086 dropped into my account out of the blue. I'd like to know if anyone else got a huge spike recently. Today I'm down to 200, but that 15,000 tells me their doing something.


----------



## JETaylor

I asked for an audit of how many of my books have had Page Flip used on them so I can try to measure back to the 50% loss in page reads.  We will see how this plays out.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## sela

Mercia McMahon said:


> That fallacy doesn't cut it anymore since Amazon began renegotiating publisher contracts in Japan less than a month after KU launched there. Amazon does not tolerate non-profitable divisions, because profit means investment opportunities. Yes they want more KU subscribers, but they also want to keep a lid on KU expenses, which is primarily pay-outs to authors. Most of KDP's employees are non-book people and they are not interested in creating successful self-publisher careers; their sole interest is a successful Amazon. Success = income > costs. Of course they are always looking for ways to keep the costs down.
> 
> Page Flip fits right into the incompetence rather than malice trope: why should publishers complain about not being paid for pages the reader is just skimming past? They are forgetting that that author has almost certainly lost a sale once the customer downloads to borrow. If the reader bought the book they pay for every page even if they skim most pages (as in non fiction readers), but to pay only for those pages read in normal mode means that the author earns a small fraction of the sale. The presentation on adopting Page Flip would sound perfectly reasonable to non book executives as it would improve the division's bottom line. It is not so good in practice if you are the book's author or publisher.


I wasn't clear enough in my original post. Let me try to clarify: Amazon only cares about Amazon's bottom line, which is future profitability based on current growth. Whatever contributes to that bottom line is encouraged and whatever detracts from that bottom line is discouraged. Indie authors are merely suppliers providing Amazon with cheap products used to lure customers into their everything store. They will be squeezed for margin as much as is possible. Like Amazon does to every supplier.

"Your margin is my opportunity." Jeff Bezos

Indie authors have a lot of margin. Our startup costs are extremely low to almost non-existent. Our profit margins can be immense.

I never meant to imply that Amazon cares about indies any more than it cares about any other supplier or wouldn't do anything to hurt suppliers. Suppliers either contribute to Amazon's growth and bottom line or they don't. If they don't, oblivion. If they do, algorithm love.

What I meant to imply was that Amazon is not going to sabotage a program or individual authors if they are making Amazon more profitable. They may make algorithm changes that hurt particular authors or genres, but only if that is seen as making customers happier / increased share of market greater/ the bottom line better.

They can F-Up and design a program or tweak an algorithm in a way that hurts their bottom line, and angers readers, but if they do, you can bet they will try to fix it ASAP. Future profitability ---> increased market share ---> more and more happy customers ---> a great selection of cheap products. Our books are at the door-crasher lost leader base of that chain.

In the pyramid of merit, indie authors come last, even though we are the base on which all else rests. Amazon has monetized the slush pile. It found a way to make money off all the books that the trade publishers would never publish because they could never make money off them. Books with a small audience, with a niche audience, with almost no audience. Even if a $2.99 book sells one copy a week, that's still almost $50/year. If you have a hundred thousand books like that, it's passive income.

Amazon introduced the KU 1.0 program, resulting in many of us indies losing significant income due to the low payout per borrow. My books are all $4.99 so the pittance of a $1.30 payout was a loss for me each time my book was borrowed. Those authors with short works or books priced between $0.99 < $2.99 made out well.

Amazon nixed the KU 1.0 program, substituting KU 2.0, destroying disrupting the careers of thousands of erotica and short fiction authors without any consternation. Two weeks notice.

Amazon tweaked the KENP to correct inequities, which had a direct consequence for author revenues.

Amazon adjusts the amount it pays authors for each page read, even if it can't really count them, based on its own goals. We don't know until a few weeks after the sales month is over what we will be earning.

Like I said before, krill to a whale.

So don't get me wrong: Amazon will do whatever it thinks will increase its customer happiness and / or contribute to its bottom line. If that hurts indie authors, they can take their books and go elsewhere.

Except, not.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Sam Kates said:


> Please let's not get this thread locked. Please let's stop being personal.
> 
> (Yeah, I could be one of the people Amanda referred to as losing his 50 reads a day because my one reader finished my book, but I don't intend remaining invisible for ever and I need to know how this plays out for future reference. So, please, be nice.)
> 
> ETA: Betsy, you locked this while I was typing - don't know how my post took or I'm able to edit it?


I think my threadlock didn't take, though my intent was always to reopen it. 

Folks, let's discuss the issue, not each other.

And show some empathy. It's fine to say if you are experiencing the issues or not--but let's not negatively characterize other people's concerns.

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Sam Kates

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I think my threadlock didn't take, though my intent was always to reopen it.


Good, and thank you - for many of us, this is too important for it to be locked over petty squabbling a few heated remarks.


----------



## RipleyKing

> I don't doubt some people really do have something fishy going on with their pages read, but the loudest voices complaining about this and imploring everyone to go wide like the sky is falling...well, their book ranks aren't that great to begin with. There was a guy in this thread who took his books off Amazon completely but they were all in the 3 million and over rank so I doubt he lost much by doing that.


Yes I did. I pulled all of them off Amazon, and I won't be back. Ever.

Try to look at it from my perspective.

If this is the new norm, then what happens next? What will you do the next time Zon decides to kick you all in the yabbos?

I live on squat and foodstamps, and I want off this poverty train. 16 books published, and I was nothing more than a flat line? My wife is both physically and mentally disabled. Every single penny counts. I've been flatlined for months, and months, nothing. Yet, when they made that adjustment for everybody, I sold three books and had 250 page reads, in one day, and then nothing since. Yes, I saw on my reports that one page glitch to show for everything bad being discussed here. Now that I know the truth, how else should I feel?

I've lived through too much history to hope things will get better.

I didn't lose much, I lost everything. Every tiny gain I had made.

My sales and page reads are not even worthy of gracing my reports, and if that's the case, no movement in rank. How many out there are just like me? Looking at that flatlined report each and every day . . . then seeing those one page glitches?

Every penny counts with me. And if this is what happened to me, it's happening to every small author out there on Zon who only gets a sale or two a day, with nothing at all to show for it.

Now sales listed.

No pages read. Maybe that one page glitch thing.

No movement in rank.

Wondering day after day why they have failed.

How many us would be ranked higher, if only there was real honesty on Zon's part? Everybody here?

I can and did move on. I had that choice, so I took it. I did that to give myself a fighting chance, elsewhere.

Yes, this debate can get heated. Everybody sees THEIR truth, and out of that a bigger picture forms.

Page 35? I said what I said, think of it what you will. I think Zon proved me right.

Edit: And I liked wearing my shirt in public places.


----------



## ......~......

RipleyKing said:


> Yes I did. I pulled all of them off Amazon, and I won't be back. Ever.


And that's your right. But that kind of thinking is not realistic for people who are actually making money on Amazon or who want to make money.

If I were in your situation, I'd take a long hard look at my books, covers, writing, blurbs, etc. Then when I was sure all of those were up to par, I'd do some promo. While Amazon is probably under reporting pages read right now, that's really not a reason to throw in the towel. It's not Amazon's fault that your books aren't resonating with readers or that readers don't even know your books exist. That's not their job, it's yours.

As I said, you have every right to do what you think is best for your business or just your sanity. But telling people to leave Amazon altogether? That's not good advice on any level. Amazon is king in this business and if you decide not to publish on Amazon, you might as well not publish at all.


----------



## RipleyKing

Amazon only has the power we give them.


----------



## ......~......

RipleyKing said:


> Amazon only has the power we give them.


Without Amazon, indie publishing wouldn't be a thing now.


----------



## RedAlert

Getting ready with an alternative business plan, in case this is the new norm.  I went over to CreateSpace, to understand that part of the eco system.  And, they are complaining of decreased sales, too.  Could be someone from here, but they are complaining about October sales.

I am trying to understand the potential consolidation of CS into KDP as has been suggested.  I am a person who dislikes change, and so I am not liking the idea of CS, which I might use, being under the auspices of the rules of KDP.  Some have said that they will appreciate seeing their physical books reported on their KU dashboards, but I dunno, what's another line that trends downward?

I didn't want to end up with a bunch of garage books in the trunk of my car at conventions.  So, off to investigate Amazon Advantage to see if that is of any use.  I'll be into Plan C pretty soon.


----------



## RipleyKing

Not true. What gave Amazon that ability to overshadow everyone else was all the new promo newsletters were all Amazon exclusive (remember that?), but after a few years of pointing out that authors with other distributors were sick of the Amazon exclusivity, they started to include other distribution nodes. When everybody got sick and tired of the outrageous review requirements in those same promo newsletters, they dropped those, too. For the most part. What is said and what is done, to this day, are still two separate things.

Amazon positioned themselves to be king, but they still only have the power we give them, or continue to give them. They were not first to self-publishing, and they will not be the last. I owe no loyalty to them.


----------



## GeneDoucette

RedAlert said:


> Getting ready with an alternative business plan, in case this is the new norm. I went over to CreateSpace, to understand that part of the eco system. And, they are complaining of decreased sales, too. Could be someone from here, but they are complaining about October sales.
> 
> I am trying to understand the potential consolidation of CS into KDP as has been suggested. I am a person who dislikes change, and so I am not liking the idea of CS, which I might use, being under the auspices of the rules of KDP. Some have said that they will appreciate seeing their physical books reported on their KU dashboards, but I dunno, what's another line that trends downward?
> 
> I didn't want to end up with a bunch of garage books in the trunk of my car at conventions. So, off to investigate Amazon Advantage to see if that is of any use. I'll be into Plan C pretty soon.


To be fair, I'm wide, and this past week has been really bad for sales, and the whole month has been lousy on Createspace. I'm making over 50% of my sales on Audible this month. None of that has anything to do with an issue with Amazon counting pages, it's just a slow time. Same problem with sales on other sites.


----------



## sela

RipleyKing said:


> How many us would be ranked higher, if only there was real honesty on Zon's part? Everybody here?


I want to address this because people seem to think that there is some kind of idea of fairness or equality in Amazon's business dealings or algorithms.

Amazon actively wants to sell books. (or have them be borrowed if in KU)

Selling books makes them money (although it's debatable about what share book sales have for Amazon's bottom line).

Amazon has developed algorithms to sell books. Amazon wants to sell books to the readers most likely to buy them. Amazon shows the books most likely to be purchased by customers, based on past purchasing history.

The algorithms figure all this out. If they work right, readers looking for particular books are shown books that they are most likely to purchase. That's why there are also-boughts in the bottom of a book's product page. Along with the popularity lists, that's how customers find new books to buy.

It's not fair or equitable. Any given author's books will not be shown to people who are unlikely to want to buy them. If their books aren't selling well, they won't be shown because they are less likely to be purchased than a book in the same genre and category that is already selling well. Amazon algorithms reward success. They reward velocity. Books that are selling well, will be shown to more readers, and so on.

Fairness or equity have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

In fact, Amazon privileges certain books over others: They privilege books in KU as incentive for authors to enrol. Their books get boosted visibility by being in KU. Amazon also selectively promotes its own imprints. There are probably incentives built into trade publisher contracts to promote their books in some way.

For example, if you are a fan of purple-skinned alien romances, Amazon is going to notice that, and it will show you other purple-skinned alien romances when you are searching for more. Will it show you _every_ purple-skinned alien romance novel out there in some fair and equitable way? NOPE. It will show you the best selling purple-skinned alien romance books first, including those in one of the Amazon imprints, or a trade book, or one in KU over some ordinary indie. If you keep searching, it will show you the less and less well selling versions.

Amazon wants to show the books to customers who are most likely to buy them. If a book is not selling -- for whatever reason, whether content or presentation -- it will not be shown very often. If a book is selling, it will show up more frequently.

If an author's books are not selling, they should look first to their book's product page, including cover, product description, categories, keywords, price and preview. If any of those are sub-par, the book will not be clicked on enough to sell in any great number. Covers sell books. Get the best one you can. If those elements of the product page are good, but the product is somehow inappropriate, whether due to missing genre and category expectations, quality, etc, it will not sell. If the product page is good, and the product is good, there may just be such a small niche market that it only sells very infrequently. Amazon can't sell a book to people who do not want it, for whatever reason they don't want it.

Needwant is right -- it is the indie author's job today to get everything right about the product and product presentation. Amazon's job is to create the algorithm that will sell the right book to the right customer. It does that better than any other retailer.


----------



## KelliWolfe

rmclean said:


> The reason why Amazon refuses to acknowledge that a major issue occurred is simple legal counsel - you don't open yourself up to lawsuits if you don't have to.


Except that every single one of us waived that right when we agreed to the KDP TOS. So why bother? They can't be held liable for any financial losses we might claim due to bugs or system down time.

Why should they invoke the legal department IMMEDIATELY, when they've never done so before and they continue to claim that there is no problem at all? Why are they suddenly letting people out of Select without any of the usual nastygrams and theatrics that they like to throw around? Why are they backfilling tens of thousands of page reads into people's reports without a word of explanation? Why are they suddenly willing to risk losing the trust and good will of writers who get over a million page reads a month and are thus a *proven* draw to the KU program by telling them that the 90% drop in page reads they're seeing is correct?


----------



## JalexM

NeedWant said:


> Without Amazon, indie publishing wouldn't be a thing now.


The blessings of the past doesn't forgive the sins of the present.



KelliWolfe said:


> Except that every single one of us waived that right when we agreed to the KDP TOS. So why bother? They can't be held liable for any financial losses we might claim due to bugs or system down time.
> 
> Why should they invoke the legal department IMMEDIATELY, when they've never done so before and they continue to claim that there is no problem at all? Why are they suddenly letting people out of Select without any of the usual nastygrams and theatrics that they like to throw around? Why are they backfilling tens of thousands of page reads into people's reports without a word of explanation? Why are they suddenly willing to risk losing the trust and good will of writers who get over a million page reads a month and are thus a *proven* draw to the KU program by telling them that the 90% drop in page reads they're seeing is correct?


You signing a TOS doesn't forgive a business off all legal troubles.


----------



## JalexM

Boyd said:


> No, it just insures it goes to arbitration first according to their TOS we all agreed to before publishing. Game, set, match?!


True, just wanted to clarify signing a TOS doesn't mean a company owns you.


----------



## pwtucker

Has anybody in SF/F seen a significant drop? I write epic fantasy and I haven't. Just curious.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## jloome

The most galling part about this is that it is affecting sales, not just borrows. I've had hardly any books in Kindle Unlimited (until recently; I'm trying the opposite of what seems intuitive at this point) but ever since my last BookBub in April, Amazon's Algorithm has been HAMMERING me every time I get ahead slightly in sales from a promo. 

It basically seems to be responding to spikes in sales by assuming I'm cheating, then limiting followup visibility and sales. I can show people a three-year graph of my sales, and basically it has misread every promotion I've bought since April as cheating, and you can see it: two days of solid sales, follow by a crash to near zero. It happens again and again.

See, here's the problem with this: it makes no logical sense. How do I benefit from BUYING my own books?!? If I could afford to buy enough to seriously affect the sales rank, I suppose, but I was selling an average of about fifty books, total, per day! So there's absolutely NO WAY that thirty of those were cheats! 

But that's what this is costing me, on average: 50-60% of my sales and income. 

This week, I put all of my books into Kindle Unlimited, including delisting my permafree. This was a) before I knew this might actually stem from KU, as it mostly seems to be affecting people there; and b) in an attempt to follow the current sales "trend" outlined in Author Earnings, which suggests Amazon is favoring exclusivity more.

So far, it has worked, SLIGHTLY. I'm up a little across the board over the last four days, in income and sales. 

What basically appears to be happening is that to combat cheating, Amazon is forcing out "perma free" books that are commonly used to cheat (I know mine was by the "customers also bought" often being KU short 'scam' titles after I ran a promo), and KU accounts associated with accounts known to be cheating.

This is sort of the equivalent of an IP Range Ban, but for advertising: they're taking a scorched Earth approach to cleaning up their marketplace due to dwindling market  share. 

Unfortunately, many of us getting caught in this are getting ZERO help or sympathy from Amazon, even though we are in effect "acceptable losses" in their battle with cheaters.

In my case, I am high-functioning autistic, and held a very stressful career for many years, but have few other skills. So this is my best chance to contribute to my family's livelihood. 

It's very callous. I understand it, and it will work itself out overtime  by getting rid of "spike" based profit and forcing writers to build "organic" growth through fan bases and quality. 

So I see entirely why they're doing it. But the callous disregard for my family's well-being when I've earned Amazon tens of thousands of dollars is not something I'm likely to forget. I've had offers from trad pubs for my work before and always turned it down in favor of self-pubbing because I liked the profit margins, the long-term potential of royalty income and the control. But the headaches and constant worrying about making the monthly budget are making it a difficult route to consider continuing to follow.

I have another series I've been working on, with the first two nearly in the can. I'll likely  publish those on Amazon (and wide) because nobody wants a series pitch at a trad house, just a first book. But my numerous and sundry one-offs and future series will all be sent out. It's just pragmatic at this point. I turned down a four-book deal with Random House/Alibi to continue publishing my detective series with Amazon, and now its revenue is simply too low, and unfairly so.


----------



## Emma Smith

pwtucker said:


> Has anybody in SF/F seen a significant drop? I write epic fantasy and I haven't. Just curious.


This is an excellent question. It would be highly productive if we can compile a list based on genre/categories and % drop. This would certainly resolve the problem of forum members attacking each other.

We already know that mainstream indie romance novelists have seen enormous income drops-- some losing far greater than 50% in income in September. These authors aren't bit players, these are women who are supporting their families based on their writing, typically earning a very healthy six figures per year. They are extremely market savvy, have huge fan bases, network extensively and publish quality books prolifically. These are authors who are regularly in the top 100 in the entire Amazon store, and were on track to make the same kind of six figures that they always make until the September 5th disaster. (We also know that there were some romance authors who were affected earlier in the summer, but things became much worse across the entire romance community in September).

So we know that something disasterous happened with KU page reads for romance authors. Right now it makes sense to find out what other genres were affected, the % loss and when that loss began. If you are one of the lucky authors who has not been affected, please identify your genre as well, so we can try to make as much sense of this as possible.

Amazon is all about data, so the more coherent data we can assemble, the better we will be able to understand what is happening.


----------



## ......~......

JalexM said:


> The blessings of the past doesn't forgive the sins of the present.


Agreed. I'm not suggesting people ignore problems or stay in KU. I just think it's silly to pull your books off Amazon completely.



Atlantisatheart said:


> It's a symbiotic relationship.
> 
> Are you saying that you're going to tie yourself to Amazon for the rest of your career because they gave you a start? So when the next Amazon comes along and entices all the other authors away, you'll be the last man standing by Amazon's side? That doesn't sound like a very good business plan.
> 
> I was in KOLL - I stayed loyal when they brought in KU1 and people ran for the hills. I stayed for KU2 when they pooped from a great height on novella's (I just worked harder). But you know what? I'm all out of loyalty, so when the next Amazon comes along - I'm gone. If they don;t fix the mess and pay me what they took away (nothing more- nothing less) I'm wide.
> 
> You have Amazon's back if you want - but I very much doubt they've got yours.


You're taking something I said out of context and creating a story around that. I have no problem with people leaving KU and going wide. I wouldn't do it myself because I'm doing well with KU at the moment. What I'm against is people leaving Amazon entirely. That's career suicide. If a new company rises up that can rival KDP, guess what? I'll be the first to sign up. I don't owe Amazon anything and they don't owe me anything either. A lot of people seem to think that Amazon owes them a living. Guess what? They don't and never have. And BTW, I used to write erotica and quit my day job to do so. Guess what happened literally a week or so after? KU2. Did I cry about the evils of Amazon and pull all my stuff from their site? No. I pulled all my erotica out of KU and focused on writing novels instead.

So no, I don't have Amazon's back and they certainly don't have mine and never have.


----------



## Nic

Emma Smith said:


> This is an excellent question. It would be highly productive if we can compile a list based on genre/categories and % drop. This would certainly resolve the problem of forum members attacking each other.


This reminds me of the porncalypse and how they first went after the short erotica, and then erotica per se. Now it is romance. It is easy to see the pattern there.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


----------



## RipleyKing

> What I'm against is people leaving Amazon entirely. That's career suicide.


No it's not.

I can sell books around the world without Amazon, no problem.

B&N, Apple, Google Play, no problem.

I see marketing myself a problem up to a point, but I can start with a little cash, and work my way up, I have options available most writers don't (or won't) consider. It will take time, but this isn't a sprint.

I have nothing but time, and when you find yourself at the bottom, the only place to go is up.


----------



## Nic

I just did a search for articles on the topic, and found this well-written article by David:

https://teleread.org/2016/10/08/amazon-kdp-select-authors-are-losing-page-reads-apparently-due-to-software-glitches/

What I also found were at least half a dozen articles of major broadsheets and news magazines going on about the page flip feature Amazon introduced and what it may mean for authors, articles which date from June 2016 to as far back as July 2015. These are actually the magazines and journalists to contact about the recent problems with page flip, because to them it was pandered as a means to count each single page. That could make a few headlines, if it were pointed out to them, that not only is there no page count, but that this feature now also steals income from authors directly.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Sam Kates said:


> Good, and thank you - for many of us, this is too important for it to be locked over petty squabbling a few heated remarks.


I had been out all day and needed to catch up--wanted to lock the thread while I read so that I could catch up, as posts were flyin'! But it was all good.

NeedWant, EmilyCantore--agree to disagree, put each other on ignore, do whatever you have to do to stop addressing each other. Not every post needs to be responded to. If you've stated your case, you're done. If you continue arguing with each other, making personal comments, you *will* be placed on post approval. You're done in this thread with the kind of bickering you've been doing.

Everyone have a great day.

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## NotAPenguin

I don't understand why they are filtering legitimate authors page reads. It's despicable.


----------



## jason2505

NotAPenguin said:


> I don't understand why they are filtering legitimate authors page reads. It's despicable.


Today I got a mail from the kdp rep stating that everything is fine with my account and the KENPs counted. I have experienced a loss of 50 % since august, but no problems on their end. aha.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

So has there been any consensus on which categories have been hardest hit and which ones have been less impacted? It seems from reading here and elsewhere Romance and Erotic Romance writers  have experienced the most drop in reads. Are there any romance writers who are in KU that weren't impacted at all? 

I'm one of those who don't think page flip is the major issue. My inkling is that Amazon tweaked how it calculates pages read.  So those in categories where readers go through books quickly were hit hardest.  It sort of makes sense that mystery authors might not be as impacted - as I'd assume a mystery reader would carefully read each page.  (i.e. spend more time on each page).


----------



## phil1861

jloome said:


> The most galling part about this is that it is affecting sales, not just borrows. I've had hardly any books in Kindle Unlimited (until recently; I'm trying the opposite of what seems intuitive at this point) but ever since my last BookBub in April, Amazon's Algorithm has been HAMMERING me every time I get ahead slightly in sales from a promo.
> 
> It basically seems to be responding to spikes in sales by assuming I'm cheating, then limiting followup visibility and sales. I can show people a three-year graph of my sales, and basically it has misread every promotion I've bought since April as cheating, and you can see it: two days of solid sales, follow by a crash to near zero. It happens again and again.
> 
> See, here's the problem with this: it makes no logical sense. How do I benefit from BUYING my own books?!? If I could afford to buy enough to seriously affect the sales rank, I suppose, but I was selling an average of about fifty books, total, per day! So there's absolutely NO WAY that thirty of those were cheats!
> 
> But that's what this is costing me, on average: 50-60% of my sales and income.
> 
> This week, I put all of my books into Kindle Unlimited, including delisting my permafree. This was a) before I knew this might actually stem from KU, as it mostly seems to be affecting people there; and b) in an attempt to follow the current sales "trend" outlined in Author Earnings, which suggests Amazon is favoring exclusivity more.
> 
> So far, it has worked, SLIGHTLY. I'm up a little across the board over the last four days, in income and sales.
> 
> What basically appears to be happening is that to combat cheating, Amazon is forcing out "perma free" books that are commonly used to cheat (I know mine was by the "customers also bought" often being KU short 'scam' titles after I ran a promo), and KU accounts associated with accounts known to be cheating.
> 
> This is sort of the equivalent of an IP Range Ban, but for advertising: they're taking a scorched Earth approach to cleaning up their marketplace due to dwindling market share.
> 
> Unfortunately, many of us getting caught in this are getting ZERO help or sympathy from Amazon, even though we are in effect "acceptable losses" in their battle with cheaters.
> 
> In my case, I am high-functioning autistic, and held a very stressful career for many years, but have few other skills. So this is my best chance to contribute to my family's livelihood.
> 
> It's very callous. I understand it, and it will work itself out overtime by getting rid of "spike" based profit and forcing writers to build "organic" growth through fan bases and quality.
> 
> So I see entirely why they're doing it. But the callous disregard for my family's well-being when I've earned Amazon tens of thousands of dollars is not something I'm likely to forget. I've had offers from trad pubs for my work before and always turned it down in favor of self-pubbing because I liked the profit margins, the long-term potential of royalty income and the control. But the headaches and constant worrying about making the monthly budget are making it a difficult route to consider continuing to follow.
> 
> I have another series I've been working on, with the first two nearly in the can. I'll likely publish those on Amazon (and wide) because nobody wants a series pitch at a trad house, just a first book. But my numerous and sundry one-offs and future series will all be sent out. It's just pragmatic at this point. I turned down a four-book deal with Random House/Alibi to continue publishing my detective series with Amazon, and now its revenue is simply too low, and unfairly so.


Hmmmm, where those promos free or paid?

Something Pheonix's thread was addressing was a sudden loss of visibility and therefore ranking after free runs of which certainly hit me at the end of Sept. I'd not run my first in series in awhile, had a good long tail from a BookBub free promo in Feb of this year and stayed at a steady top 10 civil war history up until coming off that free run. After that, visibility tanked, had a day and a half of sales above 10 and little after. Book is now about to fall off the top 100 and that has hit everything else.

My genre is historical fiction. Borrows accounted for 90% of the activity on this first book plus sales, but that kept it at 4 to 6K pretty consistently. I do not believe that since Feb that I'd run this title for free until end of Sept. I'd contacted KDP about Also bought issues, an accounting of my page reads, but the same pat answer back so that is either a: the truth, there was nothing up or b: nothing that I needed to be told about.

If there's one thing I've learned in the tech world when dealing with users, you don't give them rope to hang you with. Revealing too much about a problem and resolution leaves you open to questions you'd rather not have to answer.

So, your speculation intrigued me as it applies to something of what I've now seen personally for myself.


----------



## Colin

Gentleman Zombie said:


> So has there been any consensus on which categories have been hardest hit and which ones have been less impacted? It seems from reading here and elsewhere Romance and Erotic Romance writers have experienced the most drop in reads. Are there any romance writers who are in KU that weren't impacted at all?


One of our best-selling historical fiction authors has seen his page reads drop by more than 40% during September.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## MissingAlaska

I've been reading this thread since it started and don't know what to think about this.  It's hard to say if my meager sales have been affected.  Am I at a 90-day cliff? Or is the minor drop in my sales something else?

In the past few months, there has been a lot of talk about fraud and blackhat methods on Amazon. We've discussed obvious fake books published by the dozens dominating categories and pushing aside legitimate books. There was the news article about the guy that set up a server to promote hundreds of books by offering them for free, downloading them by the thousands under numerous fake accounts, and making a fortune in the process. I think most of us would admit that fake reviews - whether by review trading or other means -- are common. Readers, to include many here on Kboards, have complained that they could not longer find books by browsing - and had to rely solely on recommendations from friends. I think we can all admit that competition for advertising is making it more difficult to use services like Bookbub - so good books ARE getting lost in this hurricane of dross on Amazon.  

Amazon had to do something to fix these problems; otherwise, it would be easy for Google or Apple to disrupt their business model. I would agree with others that Amazon has implemented aggressive anti-fraud measures. Some unproven speculation along this line:

- Some on this thread have noted that their free books no longer fuel sales.  Given how easy it was for someone to use bots to download free books to fuel overall sales, it would make sense that Amazon has nullified the effects of free books entirely in their algorithm. I'm speculating that they've probably eliminated free books from also-boughts too.

- Amazon recently banned reviews from those who received free products - but excluded ARC book reviews.  Given how blatant some authors have been about review trading (websites dedicated to review trading, offers to trade reviews on Goodreads where the author's name is visible, etc), I was shocked that they didn't crack down on books too. Except, maybe they did. If your reviews are linked to anyone trading reviews, maybe Amazon's algorithm punishes you for that now?

- Page-read scams - whether by bot or by cheap labor in a third world country - were pretty obvious. Amazon had to do something to make sure that real readers were reading their books. This is particularly tough to do. They probably have implemented a maximum reading speed for a page where anything that trips higher than that is fraud.  The question is how they determined the reading speed (and coincidentally whether this will just cause the black-hat bots to "read" slower in the future).  Did this trip up authors with fast readers in genres like romance or erotica?

- Page read scams with bots also affect book rank. Let 1,000 robots download your book - even if they don't read it -- and that book will hit #1 of that category.  I wonder if Amazon changed their algorithm so that a borrow no longer affects rank.  If they did this, maybe they changed it so that 100% page reads -- at an "appropriate" reading pace -- trigger a "borrow" and change in rank. (Maybe a few authors need to track their rank in relation to page reads for a while to test this?)

Again, this is wild speculation with no data - but it could explain some of the patterns we're seeing (in addition to the page-flip issue).


----------



## doolittle03

I wonder if we could discuss a bit more about this new Prime KU program and its impact on regular KU? I think it is significant, even more than page flip, but I can't get a handle on how. I experienced a 30% drop in Sept. in historical romance, just to add to the data. 

Also: thanks so much to the authors for discussing these issues in the open. you didn't have to--you could've stuck with your private forums and avoided blow back, but you spoke out, and many of us are quietly being helped here. Cheers.


----------



## heynonny

I wondered about certain genres getting hit harder than others as well. The books in my historical romance pen name have completely tanked. Even after a free promo run in late September, when I noticed there hadn't been sales and I needed juice the tank, there were no sales following decent downloads, which was a bummer. 

The other pen name is in a different romance genre, and while my latest release (also in Sept) was disappointing, it wasn't a complete flop.

OTOH, as a reader, it has been frustrating to see the same books recommended to me over and over based on my browsing history no matter what I did. Maybe I wasn't alone. I wonder now if there has been a tweak to Zon's search engines which was very disruptive to the Also Boughts and recommends.


----------



## eroticatorium

It sounds like historical fiction was hardest-hit, at least anecdotally on this forum so far. That's surprising. I mostly do erotica, and I wasn't hit as hard as a lot of others -- I was credited back some page reads for September, which helped a lot (I didn't push them for it on the phone either, just sent a couple emails, they never said they were going to do anything, it just happened).

My reads have mostly come back. Still down a little bit, though I chalk that up to publishing less on Amazon and more on Smashwords as a result of the mess.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I've only had one sale all month and a few page reads - including some still sitting on the *sigh*one or two page reads. Could be a reader deciding they didn't like the story after reading only one page   , someone checking it downloaded ok and will read later, or could be a reader using page flip   . I've never seen one-page reads until recently.


----------



## katrina46

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I've only had one sale all month and a few page reads - including some still sitting on the *sigh*one or two page reads. Could be a reader deciding they didn't like the story after reading only one page  , someone checking it downloaded ok and will read later, or could be a reader using page flip  . I've never seen one-page reads until recently.


I've been getting that 1 page read a lot. I'm no literary genius, but i think I can hold them past the first 500 words. I don't think it's me. Most already read more than that when they checked out the look inside feature and decided to borrow the book, after all.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

katrina46 said:


> I've been getting that 1 page read a lot. I'm no literary genius, but i think I can hold them past the first 500 words. I don't think it's me.


I don't think it has anything to do with how well anything is written. Strictly as a reader, I know when something is going to hold my interest (more often than not it has nothing to do with the writing and everything to do with tone) and I dump stuff on the first page every single week. I'm going to guess, because I have so many books out, that I have 100 people reading one page of my stuff and tossing it every day. I'm not exaggerating. Everyone I know reading in KU does pretty much the same thing. We don't read "Look Insides." We download and discard. For every ten things I download, I would say I read two past the front page. It's not about quality but taste.


----------



## Anna Drake

doolittle03 said:


> I wonder if we could discuss a bit more about this new Prime KU program and its impact on regular KU? I think it is significant, even more than page flip, but I can't get a handle on how. I experienced a 30% drop in Sept. in historical romance, just to add to the data.
> 
> Also: thanks so much to the authors for discussing these issues in the open. you didn't have to--you could've stuck with your private forums and avoided blow back, but you spoke out, and many of us are quietly being helped here. Cheers.


I believe Prime Unlimited Reading will impact KU a great deal. The books in Prime will probably get a large number of reads which will push their visibility up in KU, too. I would think as their visibility increases, ours will decline. But Prime Unlimited wasn't available last month, so I'm not sure what to think of that dip. I still go back, though, to Amazon insisting there aren't any problems. This makes me believe we are facing the new normal for KU.

I'm withdrawing one series from Select, and I'll be taking the other out when its books expire. So far this month, I've sold two books and had very few page reads, although my website has had visitors daily. That usually doesn't happen unless people are reading my books. And some of those dang reads have included the dreaded... 1. Ugh.

I, too, appreciate all the feedback given here. Indie authors rock!


----------



## katrina46

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with how well anything is written. Strictly as a reader, I know when something is going to hold my interest (more often than not it has nothing to do with the writing and everything to do with tone) and I dump stuff on the first page every single week. I'm going to guess, because I have so many books out, that I have 100 people reading one page of my stuff and tossing it every day. I'm not exaggerating. Everyone I know reading in KU does pretty much the same thing. We don't read "Look Insides." We download and discard. For every ten things I download, I would say I read two past the front page. It's not about quality but taste.


If I wrote in your genre I would agree, but I write erotica and romance. Erotica readers habits are a bit different. I think they tend to peek inside the look inside feature more to see if they think you'll hit that niche just right. They might, however, skip to the good parts, which could cost me some reads.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

katrina46 said:


> If I wrote in your genre I would agree, but I write erotica and romance. Erotica readers habits are a bit different. I think they tend to peek inside the look inside feature more to see if they think you'll hit that niche just right. They might, however, skip to the good parts, which could cost me some reads.


That's a good point. I read erotica and romance sometimes and do the same thing, though.


----------



## katrina46

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That's a good point. I read erotica and romance sometimes and do the same thing, though.


I"m sure some people do. I never had that many page reads to begin with because I only put a few things in KU for visibility and the rest wide. GP and Barnes and Nobles are good to me. I noticed a drop in my income on Amazon with all this. It's just not freaking me out since I have so little in there. I suppose if they've change something it might be the new norm, but I've never had 1 page read before, so who knows?


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Anna Drake said:


> I believe Prime Unlimited Reading will impact KU a great deal. The books in Prime will probably get a large number of reads which will push their visibility up in KU, too. I would think as their visibility increases, ours will decline. But Prime Unlimited wasn't available last month, so I'm not sure what to think of that dip. I still go back, though, to Amazon insisting there aren't any problems. This makes me believe we are facing the new normal for KU.
> 
> I'm withdrawing one series from Select, and I'll be taking the other out when its books expire. So far this month, I've sold two books and had very few page reads, although my website has had visitors daily. That usually doesn't happen unless people are reading my books. And some of those dang reads have included the dreaded... 1. Ugh.
> 
> I, too, appreciate all the feedback given here. Indie authors rock!


I don't think Prime Reading is going to affect us anywhere near what some others think. If you're in KU and Prime, you automatically read in KU and people get the reads. Prime is curated content that doesn't include full series. It's a sample. So, if someone likes it, they should (in theory) want to read other stuff by that author. Amazon is trying to drive people to KU with the sample. They aren't trying to pump up Prime because that doesn't help fluff their bottom line. New sign-ups for KU is the end goal.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

katrina46 said:


> I"m sure some people do. I never had that many page reads to begin with because I only put a few things in KU for visibility and the rest wide. GP and Barnes and Nobles are good to me. I noticed a drop in my income on Amazon with all this. It's just not freaking me out since I have so little in there. I suppose if they've change something it might be the new norm, but I've never had 1 page read before, so who knows?


See, I lost 50,000 page reads a day in September but I was expecting it. That's when I launched a new book in my weakest-selling series and September is always worse for me. Every year, like clockwork, sales drop for me in September and begin picking up in October. Then there's a gradual build until January, where sales soar until May, then drop a bit in June and coast at that level until September. Then they drop a great deal and I start it all over again. It's hard to quantify page reads from last year because we were barely into the new system. I think volume overall was low in September.


----------



## jloome

phil1861 said:


> Hmmmm, where those promos free or paid?
> 
> Something Pheonix's thread was addressing was a sudden loss of visibility and therefore ranking after free runs of which certainly hit me at the end of Sept. I'd not run my first in series in awhile, had a good long tail from a BookBub free promo in Feb of this year and stayed at a steady top 10 civil war history up until coming off that free run. After that, visibility tanked, had a day and a half of sales above 10 and little after. Book is now about to fall off the top 100 and that has hit everything else.
> 
> My genre is historical fiction. Borrows accounted for 90% of the activity on this first book plus sales, but that kept it at 4 to 6K pretty consistently. I do not believe that since Feb that I'd run this title for free until end of Sept. I'd contacted KDP about Also bought issues, an accounting of my page reads, but the same pat answer back so that is either a: the truth, there was nothing up or b: nothing that I needed to be told about.
> 
> If there's one thing I've learned in the tech world when dealing with users, you don't give them rope to hang you with. Revealing too much about a problem and resolution leaves you open to questions you'd rather not have to answer.
> 
> So, your speculation intrigued me as it applies to something of what I've now seen personally for myself.


Yes, they were all spikes from freebie promos. This DOES NOT, as the person below suggests, only affect reads. It seems to affect ANY dramatic spike. However, given how most of us market our books, dramatic spikes are normal.

I have raised all of this with Amazon and just get pat, bullshit answers. 'We expect to see a spike after a promo,' they said. They refused to address what happens AFTER the spike, which is the big problem.

Your situation mirrors mine.


----------



## phil1861

jloome said:


> Yes, they were all spikes from freebie promos. This DOES NOT, as the person below suggests, only affect reads. It seems to affect ANY dramatic spike. However, given how most of us market our books, dramatic spikes are normal.
> 
> I have raised all of this with Amazon and just get pat, [bullcrap] answers. 'We expect to see a spike after a promo,' they said. They refused to address what happens AFTER the spike, which is the big problem.
> 
> Your situation mirrors mine.


This would seem then, if built now into the algos to disincentivise our normal MO, to be something new to the ecosystem. I think (though Phoenix can best answer that herself) to be along the lines of what she was seeing with free promotions with her business and tanking visibility after a promotion. If so, other than page reads in KU, there's little incentive to utilize any of the built in promotion aspects of Select.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## jloome

phil1861 said:


> This would seem then, if built now into the algos to disincentivise our normal MO, to be something new to the ecosystem. I think (though Phoenix can best answer that herself) to be along the lines of what she was seeing with free promotions with her business and tanking visibility after a promotion. If so, other than page reads in KU, there's little incentive to utilize any of the built in promotion aspects of Select.


Does it affect JUST KU reads, or KU promos?

For permafreebies, obviously, it's downloads. But I didn't use select promos for anything. Perhaps they only reward sell-ons after KU promos now instead of permafrees.

I think they're probably trying to be "precise while carpetbombing", taking a broad stroke to the problem but going after each area that is particularly at issue. So with KU, it's likely speed of reading, which is why so many romance authors are hit. With permafreebies, it's ANYONE, as they're all used by sockpuppeters to set up accounts.

I took my book off permafree four days ago and put everything INTO Kindle Unlimited. So far my income is up about 30%. My hope is that by actively doing the opposite of what they didn't like, I can pick up some steam in the Algorithm again.

The more I study the affects of this, the more I think they know exactly what they're doing. But the fallout and side-effects are really troubling. For example, my "permafree" had, for the first time, been regularly in multiple top 100 lists because I changed my SEO. Was I also getting more sequel sales but just not being credited for them? Is Amazon hiding sales and "escrowing" them until they figure out who the cheats are, or are they doing the more obvious thing which is limiting visibility so dramatically that you ONLY get permafree spinoff sales?

I'm certain this is an anti-fraud algorithm that is very, very aggressive. Because of my autism, I have difficult days with my mental health; on a couple of occasions I've been near nervous collapse and have contacted KDP, basically ranting "why are you doing this to me?" and have seen sudden massive jumps in sales fro two days... almost like someone gave me a break for two days, then someone else looked at the account activity and said "nope!'.

(I'm talking sales that are in the teens but used to be in the forties and fifties per day suddenly going back into the forties, but for two days.)

Last week, as they're obviously testing this, I had five days where my sales were (roughly, going by memory) 21-21-21 for the first three days, then 14-14 for the next two days, then 7-7 for the next two days.... at which point I contacted KDP and whined again, and suddenly the second seven jumped to 'eight' just before midnight.

Seriously, it's a tiered anti-fraud system and it's overly aggressive. That's what this is.


----------



## phil1861

jloome said:


> Does it affect JUST KU reads, or KU promos?
> 
> For permafreebies, obviously, it's downloads. But I didn't use select promos for anything. Perhaps they only reward sell-ons after KU promos now instead of permafrees.
> 
> I think they're probably trying to be "precise while carpetbombing", taking a broad stroke to the problem but going after each area that is particularly at issue. So with KU, it's likely speed of reading, which is why so many romance authors are hit. With permafreebies, it's ANYONE, as they're all used by sockpuppeters to set up accounts.
> 
> I took my book off permafree four days ago and put everything INTO Kindle Unlimited. So far my income is up about 30%. My hope is that by actively doing the opposite of what they didn't like, I can pick up some steam in the Algorithm again.
> 
> The more I study the affects of this, the more I think they know exactly what they're doing. But the fallout and side-effects are really troubling. For example, my "permafree" had, for the first time, been regularly in multiple top 100 lists because I changed my SEO. Was I also getting more sequel sales but just not being credited for them? Is Amazon hiding sales and "escrowing" them until they figure out who the cheats are, or are they doing the more obvious thing which is limiting visibility so dramatically that you ONLY get permafree spinoff sales?
> 
> I'm certain this is an anti-fraud algorithm that is very, very aggressive. Because of my autism, I have difficult days with my mental health; on a couple of occasions I've been near nervous collapse and have contacted KDP, basically ranting "why are you doing this to me?" and have seen sudden massive jumps in sales fro two days... almost like someone gave me a break for two days, then someone else looked at the account activity and said "nope!'.
> 
> (I'm talking sales that are in the teens but used to be in the forties and fifties per day suddenly going back into the forties, but for two days.)
> 
> Last week, as they're obviously testing this, I had five days where my sales were (roughly, going by memory) 21-21-21 for the first three days, then 14-14 for the next two days, then 7-7 for the next two days.... at which point I contacted KDP and whined again, and suddenly the second seven jumped to 'eight' just before midnight.
> 
> Seriously, it's a tiered anti-fraud system and it's overly aggressive. That's what this is.


KU promo, two day free, so no love there from them on the back to paid.

In the accounting of it all, dropping rank = less algo love = fewer page reads for me at least which leads to more dropping rank. The one page a day thing is recent, from about middle of summer or so. They put a lot of things into play about the same time, to the point that it shows on the recent AE report.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

phil1861 said:


> KU promo, two day free, so no love there from them on the back to paid.
> 
> In the accounting of it all, dropping rank = less algo love = fewer page reads for me at least which leads to more dropping rank. The one page a day thing is recent, from about middle of summer or so. They put a lot of things into play about the same time, to the point that it shows on the recent AE report.


The Author Earning Report shows that small to middle-sized publishers are earning more than before -- which is essentially still us because people are setting up their publishing houses. It's not a drop in the market but a shift in the way things are being reported.


----------



## tresero

I sent a survey this morning to my list regarding KU and page-flip and also my latest book (that is 90% down from release norms). It's been a few hours only so these numbers will change as more people respond.

I suggest if you have a list, you also ask. They were very supportive (I worried that they wouldn't care) and very forthcoming in their answers. All was done anonymously, so there was no pressure on them to answer untruthfully. Many also entered comments or emailed me back.

This is romance. Romance and erotica are taking the biggest hits which led me to believe it isn't just a page-flip thing, but much bigger.

Results as of now (360 responses) I anonymized my titles since I don't really need my pens exposed. If you know them, please respect that.

1. Did you read my last book xxx? Yes 30%, No 31%, On my list 36.1%. I'm not interested 3%

2. If you did, did you borrow in KU? KU 54.7%, Bought 45.3%

3. If you borrowed how far did you read (69 responded so far)
These aren't official since it was a text answer: 
80% all of it
10% halfway thru
10% other or haven't started

4. Will you read books that aren't in KU?
57.6% yes
36% I don't have KU
6.4% no

5. Do you read in page-flip mode?
20.2% yes
44.2% no
35.6% I don't know what page-flip mode is.

6. Did you have page-flip mode on at any point while reading xxx:
7.4% yes
58.1% no
34.4% I don't know

Comments (hand picked, many were just supporting authors)

Page flip has come up on some of my books and I don't like it.

I tried to unable it I can't get to , can let me know how I will unable it. Thanks

I read all my books on flip page regardless of that kindle should sort this out pronto it's still being read.

I did not know what page flip was. It looks great for readers. I will not ever use it if the authors do not get paid when readers use page flip.

I can't stand the flip-page mode....sometimes when I try to get it back to regular screen it knocks me out of the book and when I bring it back up it doesn't take me back to the page I was reading. .will complain to 
Amazon, sorry didn't know anything about it till now...thanks for letting us know. ....

As far as I know, there isn't a way to turn that feature off. It is stupid and unfair that this stops you from getting paid.

I was unaware that page-flip was a choice. I received an update 2 months ago & it was just there. I will now switch it off as i find it irritating anyway!
----
Make of it what you will, but that's cold, hard data. When I call on Monday, they won't be able to tell me everything is fine. Of course, they probably will since I believe this is by design. Again, I think page-flip is a problem, but not the main problem.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with how well anything is written. Strictly as a reader, I know when something is going to hold my interest (more often than not it has nothing to do with the writing and everything to do with tone) and I dump stuff on the first page every single week. I'm going to guess, because I have so many books out, that I have 100 people reading one page of my stuff and tossing it every day. I'm not exaggerating. Everyone I know reading in KU does pretty much the same thing. We don't read "Look Insides." We download and discard. For every ten things I download, I would say I read two past the front page. It's not about quality but taste.


But why are we only seeing the one page reads now? If readers were stopping because they didn't like the tone of the first page wouldn't we have been seeing this from the start of KU2?


----------



## My Dog&#039;s Servant

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with how well anything is written. Strictly as a reader, I know when something is going to hold my interest (more often than not it has nothing to do with the writing and everything to do with tone) and I dump stuff on the first page every single week. I'm going to guess, because I have so many books out, that I have 100 people reading one page of my stuff and tossing it every day. I'm not exaggerating. Everyone I know reading in KU does pretty much the same thing. We don't read "Look Insides." We download and discard. For every ten things I download, I would say I read two past the front page. It's not about quality but taste.


Question, Amanda....are you downloading with a Kindle reader/app, or from a computer when you're borrowing for KU? I rely on Look Inside for a lot of my purchases, but then, I do a lot of my browsing/buying on the computer. If I'm on a reader and going through "Books", I have to download a sample since there's no Look Inside (at least, not on my Kindle Fire or my phone). So maybe with KU it's just easier to download the book and sample if you're searching from a reader? (I'm not a KU subscriber so I don't know.)


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> But why are we only seeing the one page reads now? If readers were stopping because they didn't like the tone of the first page wouldn't we have been seeing this from the start of KU2?


My guess would be that a variety of different things play into that, including the "furthest page read" vs. "actual pages read" snafu which appears to be working itself out. I know some people say that they can still trigger a full read by going to the end, but we've been doing some testing and that doesn't appear to be the case in most instances. Before it didn't matter if everything was read. You got credit for the furthest page read and that was that. I don't believe that's the case any longer.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Okay, I just saw a thriller writer report over one hundred sales and five hundred page reads on their latest launch.

The author verified with some regular readers (newsletter subs) that they read the entire book.

It's a full length novel so it should be ten times that number just from people who have directly stated they read it.

This is a thrilller/suspense from an established author.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

My Dog's Servant said:


> Question, Amanda....are you downloading with a Kindle reader/app, or from a computer when you're borrowing for KU? I rely on Look Inside for a lot of my purchases, but then, I do a lot of my browsing/buying on the computer. If I'm on a reader and going through "Books", I have to download a sample since there's no Look Inside (at least, not on my Kindle Fire or my phone). So maybe with KU it's just easier to download the book and sample if you're searching from a reader? (I'm not a KU subscriber so I don't know.)


I would say I do about 65 percent of my borrowing from my Kindle and the other 35 percent when I'm bumming around on Amazon on my laptop and just send it to my Kindle. I never look at the "Look Inside" regardless.


----------



## Nope

I think it's clear that something has changed in the Amazon ecosystem, even if we look no further than the bizarre and wildly inconsistent rankings that free promotions are generating. Also, it's pretty clear that the churn coefficient has vastly accelerated recently. I'm not sure the "why" of it matters.

My last promo was fairly decent, and should have generated reasonable visibility - it did not. My perma-free dropped in ranking in spite of increasing DLs (it was not the promo book, but affected, I think, because of the associated affiliated codes that came from the book that was promoted). I went from steady page reads to none. I understand visibility is fickle, the Zon algos more so, I understand that this may have been due to an organic depression in demand, but similar promotions have historically generated significant page reads - as compared to zero.

Again, something, or more likely somethings, has demonstrably changed, (it's really not a debate at this point), regardless of whether "your" sales/reads have been adversely affected or not. And, whatever it is, it's much deeper and pervasive than KU page reads.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but things I think we know:

1. This seems to be an Indie "problem", not a Zon imprint or a Big 5 "problem".
2. The bestsellers lists are increasingly and overwhelmingly populated by Zon imprints.
3. Free promotions are generating unpredictable and dramatically worse rankings compared to recent historic norms.
4. Rankings are churning much faster, eliminating the positive effect of sales/borrow spikes.
5. Page reads are down across the platform, but inconsistently so - and income is not a factor.
6. Sales are fluctuating as well, but again, not in a consistent or predictable manner.
7. There are "reports" that the Zon may have introduced fraud prevention into their current algos.
8. The Zon has an internal promotions platform. The Zon likes people using their stuff. The Zon does not like external manipulation.
9. The Zon has aggressively pursued gaining control of their review process.
10. The Zon is aggressively fighting scammers.
11. The Zon's re-calibration tool of choice is a chainsaw.
10. And whatever else I'm forgetting...

Therefore, my guess:

It seems to me that the differentiating factor between those affected and those that appear to be immune might be promotional activity and "box set, guilt by association" syndrome (see "social media fans are friends and family" initiative). Those writers with heavy promotions, especially if they use more "questionable" promotion sites or utilize extremely frequent promotions, especially for perma-frees, have been hit the hardest compared to writers that have not run a promotion recently, say since September. Bookbub "appears" to be an exception. I have no real data for this, just lots of coincidences in my sales and what I've seen reported by others, and of course, the stuff noted above. I think all of this may be the result of a combination of promoting Zon's own internal promotion platform, fraud prevention and improving organic visibility within the Zon ecosystem over third-party manipulation promotions.

For those unaffected, a few questions to think about:

1. When was the last promo you ran?
2. Was it free or paid?
3. With which promo sites?
4. Are you in any box sets with authors that promote heavily?
5. Are you involved with any other cross-promotion with authors that promote heavily?

But, know what? If I'm wrong about promotional activity having anything to do with anything, then yippee! That's good to know as well, because...

Whatever is going on, it is the new normal. I seriously don't care why. (And I don't believe Page Flip has anything to do with rankings or visibility or promotions - sure, it may have something to do with under reported page reads, but that could also be a result, at least in part, of people borrowing your book less because they're not seeing it anymore.) *The real question is, how do we market and promote our books to generate positive results in the here and now, because the old strategies (this summer) don't appear to work anymore.*


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

If the system is flagging legit reads as fraud and scraping them from our books it doesn't matter how we promote.

Amazon said flat out in those emails, they're filtering *reads*. It's not something authors are doing.


----------



## jloome

P.J. Post said:


> I think it's clear that something has changed in the Amazon ecosystem, even if we look no further than the bizarre and wildly inconsistent rankings that free promotions are generating. Also, it's pretty clear that the churn coefficient has vastly accelerated recently. I'm not sure the "why" of it matters.
> 
> My last promo was fairly decent, and should have generated reasonable visibility - it did not. My perma-free dropped in ranking in spite of increasing DLs (it was not the promo book, but affected, I think, because of the associated affiliated codes that came from the book that was promoted). I went from steady page reads to none. I understand visibility is fickle, the Zon algos more so, I understand that this may have been due to an organic depression in demand, but similar promotions have historically generated significant page reads - as compared to zero.
> 
> Again, something, or more likely somethings, has demonstrably changed, (it's really not a debate at this point), regardless of whether "your" sales/reads have been adversely affected or not. And, whatever it is, it's much deeper and pervasive than KU page reads.
> 
> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but things I think we know:
> 
> 1. This seems to be an Indie "problem", not a Zon imprint or a Big 5 "problem".
> 2. The bestsellers lists are increasingly and overwhelmingly populated by Zon imprints.
> 3. Free promotions are generating unpredictable and dramatically worse rankings compared to recent historic norms.
> 4. Rankings are churning much faster, eliminating the positive effect of sales/borrow spikes.
> 5. Page reads are down across the platform, but inconsistently so - and income is not a factor.
> 6. Sales are fluctuating as well, but again, not in a consistent or predictable manner.
> 7. There are "reports" that the Zon may have introduced fraud prevention into their current algos.
> 8. The Zon has an internal promotions platform. The Zon likes people using their stuff. The Zon does not like external manipulation.
> 9. The Zon has aggressively pursued gaining control of their review process.
> 10. The Zon is aggressively fighting scammers.
> 11. The Zon's re-calibration tool of choice is a chainsaw.
> 10. And whatever else I'm forgetting...
> 
> Therefore, my guess:
> 
> It seems to me that the differentiating factor between those affected and those that appear to be immune might be promotional activity and "box set, guilt by association" syndrome (see "social media fans are friends and family" initiative). Those writers with heavy promotions, especially if they use more "questionable" promotion sites or utilize extremely frequent promotions, especially for perma-frees, have been hit the hardest compared to writers that have not run a promotion recently, say since September. Bookbub "appears" to be an exception. I have no real data for this, just lots of coincidences in my sales and what I've seen reported by others, and of course, the stuff noted above. I think all of this may be the result of a combination of promoting Zon's own internal promotion platform, fraud prevention and improving organic visibility within the Zon ecosystem over third-party manipulation promotions.
> 
> For those unaffected, a few questions to think about:
> 
> 1. When was the last promo you ran?
> 2. Was it free or paid?
> 3. With which promo sites?
> 4. Are you in any box sets with authors that promote heavily?
> 5. Are you involved with any other cross-promotion with authors that promote heavily?
> 
> But, know what? If I'm wrong about promotional activity having anything to do with anything, then yippee! That's good to know as well, because...
> 
> Whatever is going on, it is the new normal. I seriously don't care why. (And I don't believe Page Flip has anything to do with rankings or visibility or promotions - sure, it may have something to do with under reported page reads, but that could also be a result, at least in part, of people borrowing your book less because they're not seeing it anymore.) *The real question is, how do we market and promote our books to generate positive results in the here and now, because the old strategies (this summer) don't appear to work anymore.*


Organically. They're shaping their marketplace so that outside influences can't control it, whether that's free book sites, permafrees or what have you. But their algorithms are DEFINITELY (they've told me this) tied to the age of your book. So if you build a solid fan list, advertise before launch and have a great cover and editing, you'll supposedly be on an even footing with everyone else, and it will be all down to consumer preference.

I don't believe this will work for a minute. But it's an interesting effort. As I've said, I actually sort of applaud them for doing this, as Kindle has become about who markets and cheats best, not who writes good books. But the lack of precision and how it's impacting me personally, and other authors, sucks the big one.

Also, there are many factors in this that can make authors look the guilty party, such as association with cheat books just because downloading a "permafree" makes an easy entry point to the marketplace. For all we know, some of the effective book advertising sites may have been using bots to download our "permafrees" to show how effective their ads are. So we can't even tell if our prior promos were honest.

That vagueness is why they're doing this, but it's awful being on the wrong side of the line they think is acceptable when I've been busting my ass for four years to do this honestly.

My personal suggestion: if your book is being heavily affected by this, change your approach. Amazon is a search algorithm, not a retailer. If associating with your work helps cheats, you have to disassociate from the cheats. If you were making all your money off of KU bots without even knowing it (very possible; they read your book to 'legitimize' the bot activity), you're never going to get it back anyway, so you might as well try going wide and selling as many copies as possible.

If you're a permafree/mostly sales author like me, maybe do what I'm doing (it seems to be slowly working) and get rid of your permafree, put it to 99 cents as a disincentive to cheats but still cheap enough to intro people to your series. You're NOT going to get the sales off permafree anyway (I know, my sales are actually up about 30% since switching).

In other words, if there is an area of your part of the Amazon ecosystem that is attracting fraudsters, get out of that area, at least for a while, while their algorithms figure out who is and isn't a real person.


----------



## jloome

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> If the system is flagging legit reads as fraud and scraping them from our books it doesn't matter how we promote.
> 
> Amazon said flat out in those emails, they're filtering *reads*. It's not something authors are doing.


It's not just reads, it's sales as well, particularly off of 'freebie' spikes.


----------



## J.R. Tate

jloome said:


> Kindle has become about who markets and cheats best, not who writes good books.


BAM! No truer words have ever been spoken!

Edited to add: I still hope Amazon finds a way to fix how they are tracking fraudulent reads and decipher them CORRECTLY from people actually reading books. The sins of a few are hurting the honesty of many.


----------



## S.R.

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My guess would be that a variety of different things play into that, including the "furthest page read" vs. "actual pages read" snafu which appears to be working itself out. I know some people say that they can still trigger a full read by going to the end, but we've been doing some testing and that doesn't appear to be the case in most instances. Before it didn't matter if everything was read. You got credit for the furthest page read and that was that. I don't believe that's the case any longer.


I haven't done testing, but I wonder if a change I've seen in my own reports lately supports this. It used to be that I'd wake up in the morning to find the majority of pages read for the day already logged in my KENP numbers... I'd often get a couple or few more chunks that would drop in later in the day or evening but overall, pages came in larger, less frequent additions to the graph.

Lately, I've noticed a big change mostly because I was leaving BookReport open after that first morning check. Now, it cha-chings frequently throughout the day, but adding pennies at a time - like Amazon is counting and depositing pages as they're read vs. the way they used to come in fewer and bigger (maybe delayed due to the "furthest page" method) page total chunks...I don't know, but I definitely have noticed a difference.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## tresero

TwistedTales said:


> Although I agree the Prime beta of 1,000 books will have minimal impact, it's the payment model that is the risk.
> 
> If Amazon could "pay once, borrow many" then that solves a lot of problems. No more pesky pages read tracking, simplified payment model, upfront control of costs, adds to the Prime offer, utilizes an existing investment in Prime membership, potential to eliminate or significantly minimize scammers, puts Amazon in control of what an author is paid. Prime is projected to have 88 million subscribers within I think it was five years, so that's their primary subscription platform.
> 
> Downside of going to a "pay once, borrow many" model is that some authors will refuse to participate. For the big sellers they might be able to hit on an agreed value, but for the bulk they won't care. So, minimal downside to Amazon. Most authors are interchangeable commodities to them.
> 
> I don't care about what they've done to "page flip" or "fraud filtering". That merely tells me they're capable of lying, but I already knew that so no need for outrage. That pales in comparison to the "pay once, borrow many" model. For us middle players that's the real death knell of Amazon's subscription model.
> 
> As for the downturn in sales/pages read. I think it's cause by a number of factors:
> - They modified the system with "fraud filtering" and "page flip".
> - They've lost KU subscribers or they're not reading as much or they're not giving away as many "trial" subscriptions.
> - The US economy is on a downturn thanks to the election.
> 
> I also suspect they'd be able to adjust the business rules for "fraud filtering". It would make sense to be able to move the parameters around particularly if it's based on percentage read by session time. It would enable them to move targets to stop scammers from learning the "rules".


If you read my survey results of my list (now close to 500 respondents, but mostly the same percentages) you will see, at least in my case, KU isn't a make or break deal. I'm moving my back catalog out of KU and working on promo strategies. If you don't ask your readers, you are guessing.


----------



## RipleyKing

Just for the giggles, I decided to check my stats on Zon today. Now, keep in mind that I pulled all my books off the 14th, and today is the 16th, and I'm registering 75 page reads today. Yes, today. Opps, now 91 page reads today, within the last five minutes. that brings my grand total to 332 page reads for the many months I've been in KU2.


I can't wait to see what happens next.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

SallyRose said:


> I haven't done testing, but I wonder if a change I've seen in my own reports lately supports this. It used to be that I'd wake up in the morning to find the majority of pages read for the day already logged in my KENP numbers... I'd often get a couple or few more chunks that would drop in later in the day or evening but overall, pages came in larger, less frequent additions to the graph.
> 
> Lately, I've noticed a big change mostly because I was leaving BookReport open after that first morning check. Now, it cha-chings frequently throughout the day, but adding pennies at a time - like Amazon is counting and depositing pages as they're read vs. the way they used to come in fewer and bigger (maybe delayed due to the "furthest page" method) page total chunks...I don't know, but I definitely have noticed a difference.


This is exactly the pattern change I'm experiencing, too. Periodic lumps before; more frequent dribbles all day long now.


----------



## S.R.

SevenDays said:


> This is exactly the pattern change I'm experiencing, too. Periodic lumps before; more frequent dribbles all day long now.


Interesting, so it's not just me. I wonder if this much finer granularity in reporting that some of us are seeing could also be giving greater visibility to 1-page reads that may have been lost in the larger reporting dumps that happened before?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

The reads and probably sales are being analyzed before they are reported. That's going to draw a lot of CPU cycles on Amazon's end.

I've tested and reads take at least 12 hours to appear on the dash from actual reading in the Kindle app on an always connected device.

The really scary possibility here is that the filter is so processing power intensive that it's glitching out and dropping data.

So, some reads are being incorrectly removed as fraudulent. Others may just vanish if the system can't handle the load it's under. KDP isn't a huge priority for Amazon and they're not going to devote huge resources to this fraud problem.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

SallyRose said:


> Interesting, so it's not just me. I wonder if this much finer granularity in reporting that some of us are seeing could also be giving greater visibility to 1-page reads that may have been lost in the larger reporting dumps that happened before?


Reading this thread I've been pondering the same thing. I suspect that, yes, more frequent reporting is highlighting these smaller amounts. It's even more prominent when you use Book Report, for sure.

Yesterday I had one page read on a book that's permafree, which I found somewhat amusing and interesting.


----------



## jloome

RipleyKing said:


> Just for the giggles, I decided to check my stats on Zon today. Now, keep in mind that I pulled all my books off the 14th, and today is the 16th, and I'm registering 75 page reads today. Yes, today. Opps, now 91 page reads today, within the last five minutes. that brings my grand total to 332 page reads for the many months I've been in KU2.
> 
> I can't wait to see what happens next.


I pulled my book out of permafree four days ago and I'm still getting free units counted every day; just a handful each day, but enough that it's either VERY late reporting, or they've been holding back sales/downloads.


----------



## TromboneAl

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Where can you see 'borrows' as opposed to 'page reads' ?


Pretty sure you can't. We can talk about them and estimate them, but you can no longer see the number of borrows.

Before the page read stuff happened, one could see the number of borrows for which 10% of the book had been read, but no longer.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Chrissy

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> The reads and probably sales are being analyzed before they are reported. That's going to draw a lot of CPU cycles on Amazon's end.
> 
> I've tested and reads take at least 12 hours to appear on the dash from actual reading in the Kindle app on an always connected device.
> 
> The really scary possibility here is that the filter is so processing power intensive that it's glitching out and dropping data.
> 
> *So, some reads are being incorrectly removed as fraudulent. Others may just vanish if the system can't handle the load it's under. KDP isn't a huge priority for Amazon and they're not going to devote huge resources to this fraud problem.*


Amazon runs AWS - Amazon Web Services - which runs systems for customers like: Adobe Systems, Bristol Myers Squibb, Comcast, Intuit, Johnson & Johnson, Netflix and Nokia.

Believe me they can more than handle the KDP/KU system. If reads or sales are dropping it is NOT due to system over load.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

They're analyzing it on the fly and the processing requirements cause a delay.

Sales data is probably being processed as one of the criteria for filtering reads, or reads filtering just slows the entire system down.

Amazon will not "filter" sales. If people click and pay for a book they're not going to hold the money and not account for the sale. That would be a criminal, not civil offense and an arbitration clause isn't going to protect them should they be caught. They'd never do that.

An algo change on the other hand, is possible.

Amazon straight up said they're filtering reads. That's where we should focus our attention.



Chrissy said:


> Amazon runs AWS - Amazon Web Services - which runs systems for customers like: Adobe Systems, Bristol Myers Squibb, Comcast, Intuit, Johnson & Johnson, Netflix and Nokia.
> 
> Believe me they can more than handle the KDP/KU system. If reads or sales are dropping it is NOT due to system over load.


It's probably not all on one server and KDP is a fairly small part of Amazon and probably has limited resources by comparison.

I'd have to check, but the cloud services are probably another company entirely separate but under the Amazon umbrella. A9, which develops their algorithms, is a subsidiary but separate company for example.


----------



## Decon

It really is hard to work out what is going on. I never used to get many borrows on my books.

I deleted 98% of my shorts to tidy up my brand. What I'd noticed with KU, was that people would download a short and it would show as 1 page read, then in 90% of cases... nothing more. As I said, that was easy to work out because borrows on my full works was none existent. Even then, I would only get those 1 page borrows after a free day of a short. What that told me was the when readers realized it was only a short, they weren't interested.

Fast forward, and after I deleted my shorts, borrows increased month on month with September my best month at 20,000 page reads. I couldn't tell if there were any 1 page reads because I had borrows everyday and the minimum they equated to was a full book read.

In Otcober, I have a different story. I flatlined for 10 recent days interspersed with 1 or 2 page reads showing. This Thursday I had a feebooksy and had 3500 free downloads. that was followed the day after by 40 or so sales with a rank of 5,000. I would have expcted 3/4000 page reads on that book with those sort of figures over the next few days, but no, that book has had no page reads, only 1600 page reads on a different book.

I really don't know what to make of it, but something has changed.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

We don't have to work it out, they told us they're flagging reading activity as fraudulent and removing it from our reports and payments.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My guess would be that a variety of different things play into that, including the "furthest page read" vs. "actual pages read" snafu which appears to be working itself out. I know some people say that they can still trigger a full read by going to the end, but we've been doing some testing and that doesn't appear to be the case in most instances. Before it didn't matter if everything was read. You got credit for the furthest page read and that was that. I don't believe that's the case any longer.


I'm going to have to change my reading habits. I'm not very patient anymore and I frequently skip to the last two chapters to find out what happened. If it's a good book, I'll go back and read what I skipped and reread those last two chapters. That habit might just be hurting other authors and I'm stopping as of now. I think I'll only read novellas from now on.


----------



## jloome

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> We don't have to work it out, they told us they're flagging reading activity as fraudulent and removing it from our reports and payments.


I've been discussing this with both KDP staff and Amazon executive relations since MAY. It's not just reads, it's also the algorithm clamping down on free books of any sort. So we can't just 'concentrate on reads'. This anti-fraud system is affecting more than just reads. It's affecting free downloads, sales positioning, display positioning.... we have at least two best-selling authors in this thread who have seen SALES declines similar to the KU reads, so it is not just one issue.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

TromboneAl said:


> Pretty sure you can't. We can talk about them and estimate them, but you can no longer see the number of borrows.
> 
> Before the page read stuff happened, one could see the number of borrows for which 10% of the book had been read, but no longer.


Thanks. Thought I was missing something.


----------



## Decon

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> We don't have to work it out, they told us they're flagging reading activity as fraudulent and removing it from our reports and payments.


Sorry I must have missed this, who have they told? I thought if this happened they would send a warning email.


----------



## Hope

SallyRose said:


> I haven't done testing, but I wonder if a change I've seen in my own reports lately supports this. It used to be that I'd wake up in the morning to find the majority of pages read for the day already logged in my KENP numbers... I'd often get a couple or few more chunks that would drop in later in the day or evening but overall, pages came in larger, less frequent additions to the graph.
> 
> Lately, I've noticed a big change mostly because I was leaving BookReport open after that first morning check. Now, it cha-chings frequently throughout the day, but adding pennies at a time - like Amazon is counting and depositing pages as they're read vs. the way they used to come in fewer and bigger (maybe delayed due to the "furthest page" method) page total chunks...I don't know, but I definitely have noticed a difference.


The same thing is happening with me regarding BookReport It trickles in all day, but then about 8-9:00 in the evening, it stops. I've stayed up until midnight a few times, and when it turns over, I'll have anywhere from 800-1200 page reads instantly drop in at midnight.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Decon said:


> Sorry I must have missed this, who have they told? I thought if this happened they would send a warning email.


There's an email upthread. Several people have gotten it. They all say:

We recently completed our September audit and regularly monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior. The KDP business team has not found any systematic issues impacting your results. Please note that, as always, individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.



jloome said:


> I've been discussing this with both KDP staff and Amazon executive relations since MAY. It's not just reads, it's also the algorithm clamping down on free books of any sort. So we can't just 'concentrate on reads'. This anti-fraud system is affecting more than just reads. It's affecting free downloads, sales positioning, display positioning.... we have at least two best-selling authors in this thread who have seen SALES declines similar to the KU reads, so it is not just one issue.


I meant more that there are still people talking about how we need to "figure this out" when Amazon has started admitting to people that they're doing what you describe.

We know what's happening just not how it works of if it is functioning as intended (which I sincerely doubt).


----------



## Hope

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't think Prime Reading is going to affect us anywhere near what some others think. If you're in KU and Prime, you automatically read in KU and people get the reads. Prime is curated content that doesn't include full series. It's a sample. So, if someone likes it, they should (in theory) want to read other stuff by that author. Amazon is trying to drive people to KU with the sample. They aren't trying to pump up Prime because that doesn't help fluff their bottom line. New sign-ups for KU is the end goal.


This sounds like a logical explanation. It just makes sense. I have both KU and Prime and I haven't bothered to look at what's in Prime because of KU. *If* there's a decent variety of books in Prime, not entire series, but one here and there, and I didn't already have KU, I would be more likely to sign up for KU if I liked what I read in Prime.


----------



## TheLass

katygirl said:


> This sounds like a logical explanation. It just makes sense. I have both KU and Prime and I haven't bothered to look at what's in Prime because of KU. *If* there's a decent variety of books in Prime, not entire series, but one here and there, and I didn't already have KU, I would be more likely to sign up for KU if I liked what I read in Prime.


But authors with books in Prime will likely get improvements in visibility that other authors won't enjoy. There's already a thread where someone in the beta has seen an increase in their rankings.


----------



## Hope

TheLass said:


> But authors with books in Prime will likely get improvements in visibility that other authors won't enjoy. There's already a thread where someone in the beta has seen an increase in their rankings.


  I don't know...honestly, I just hope things get better for everyone, and fast.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

TheLass said:


> But authors with books in Prime will likely get improvements in visibility that other authors won't enjoy. There's already a thread where someone in the beta has seen an increase in their rankings.


The content is switched every three months so other authors will be included.


----------



## Nancy_G

katygirl said:


> The same thing is happening with me regarding BookReport It trickles in all day, but then about 8-9:00 in the evening, it stops. I've stayed up until midnight a few times, and when it turns over, I'll have anywhere from 800-1200 page reads instantly drop in at midnight.


Yep, same for me. Stops recording at 8:00 and then enters at midnight of around 1200 page reads.


----------



## Joseph Malik

I launched on 30 September. Woe is me.

My sales and ranking are consistent, with one or two sales per day, and spikes on my promo days. However, my page reads are going from a few thousand to a few _dozen_, day to day. Up and down, with spikes typically, but not always, on promo days (I'm in the middle of a blog tour right now, so I'm doing a different promo nearly every day for 20 days).

There are three possibilities, here, the way I see it.

One: I've written a book that is so incredibly, stunningly, can't-put-it-down awesome that people are burning through it non-stop as soon as they open it up, and then nothing happens until the next stop on the tour that has good reach, where a few more people will pick it up and read it cover to cover in a few hours. And this is all happening because my book is so amazingly, breathtakingly, super-awesome that they have to read it through in one sitting. (Which I hope is what's happening. And I hope they're telling their friends and this will be a slow burn that eventually takes the publishing world by storm. But I doubt it.)

Two: The page reads are consistent, but the reporting is all jacked up as Amazon goofs around with it. On any given day I'll have a few dozen people pick up my book and generate 3,000 KENP between them (when the reporting is correct); the next, I'll have a few dozen people still reading, but Amazon has tweaked the reporting and that day it's only generating one KENP per reader. The sales seem to bear this out. If this is the case, then they're screwing me out of a few bucks a day. Mostly, though, they're screwing up my metrics, so I can't tell what promo is working and what isn't.

Three: I suck, and every time I promote on a site with great reach a couple of thousand people pick up my book, read a couple of pages, and quit. I still have the number of that truck-driving school, so if this is the case, I'm good, here.


----------



## What Writes at Midnight

Nancy G said:


> Yep, same for me. Stops recording at 8:00 and then enters at midnight of around 1200 page reads.


That reporting congestion has been around for a long while. Probably not specific to the issues at hand here.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Or it has nothing to do with you because we are all at a stunning and UNFAIR disadvantage.

They've recently implemented at least THREE things that cheat us of page reads (and possibly sales).

1. Page flip reads not counting (duh)

2. Percentage read counting wherever readers close the book. So even if they finish the entire book and then scroll back to check something out, you don't get paid for what they read just up to wherever they closed the book at. (Reallllly need a better way to explain that).

3. Some sort of scam filter that removes pages read if they happen too fast or in some other way Zon doesn't like. (*May be impacting romance authors more due to the voracious speed and quantity they absorp books).

So, don't take it personally. Seems we are almost all effected to some degree, though it seems to be much more glaring for high-volume authors in popular genres.



Joseph Malik said:


> I launched on 30 September. Woe is me.
> 
> My sales and ranking are consistent, with one or two sales per day, and spikes on my promo days. However, my page reads are going from a few thousand to a few _dozen_, day to day. Up and down, with spikes typically, but not always, on promo days (I'm in the middle of a blog tour right now, so I'm doing a different promo nearly every day for 20 days).
> 
> There are three possibilities, here, the way I see it.
> 
> One: I've written a book that is so incredibly, stunningly, can't-put-it-down awesome that people are burning through it non-stop as soon as they open it up, and then nothing happens until the next stop on the tour that has good reach, where a few more people will pick it up and read it cover to cover in a few hours. And this is all happening because my book is so amazingly, breathtakingly, super-awesome that they have to read it through in one sitting. (Which I hope is what's happening. And I hope they're telling their friends and this will be a slow burn that eventually takes the publishing world by storm. But I doubt it.)
> 
> Two: The page reads are consistent, but the reporting is all jacked up as Amazon goofs around with it. On any given day I'll have a few dozen people pick up my book and generate 3,000 KENP between them (when the reporting is correct); the next, I'll have a few dozen people still reading, but Amazon has tweaked the reporting and that day it's only generating one KENP per reader. The sales seem to bear this out. If this is the case, then they're screwing me out of a few bucks a day. Mostly, though, they're screwing up my metrics, so I can't tell what promo is working and what isn't.
> 
> Three: I suck, and every time I promote on a site with great reach a couple of thousand people pick up my book, read a couple of pages, and quit. I still have the number of that truck-driving school, so if this is the case, I'm good, here.


----------



## Lady Vine

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with how well anything is written. Strictly as a reader, I know when something is going to hold my interest (more often than not it has nothing to do with the writing and everything to do with tone) and I dump stuff on the first page every single week. I'm going to guess, because I have so many books out, that I have 100 people reading one page of my stuff and tossing it every day. I'm not exaggerating. Everyone I know reading in KU does pretty much the same thing. We don't read "Look Insides." We download and discard. For every ten things I download, I would say I read two past the front page. It's not about quality but taste.


This would mean that all books open to the first chapter of the books and not the cover, title page or contents. Is this the case? Also, the KENPC is higher than the listed book pages, so wouldn't you need to register about 2 KENPC pages to make one listed page?


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Lady Vine said:


> This would mean that all books open to the first chapter of the books and not the cover, title page or contents. Is this the case? Also, the KENPC is higher than the listed book pages, so wouldn't you need to register about 2 KENPC pages to make one listed page?


Everything I read opens at the first chapter or prologue I believe. That's what I've noticed, anyway. I can page back to see the title page and other front matter but the bulk of the books I open on my Kindle -- including trades -- open at chapter one or the prologue.


----------



## J.R. Tate

Mine all open at chapter one as well and I have to go backward to see the other stuff.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## pwtucker

Data point: I haven't run any promo's since July 15, at which point I ran about four or five Book Barbarian/ENT style promos for a $3.99 book that was dropped to $0.99. I have no books in boxed sets, never have, and my books are about 800 KENPC and have had steady ranking since they launched May/July. I don't have any permafree books either. 

Maybe as a result I've not been flagged as having any suspicious activity and consequently not been penalized by losing reads/sales.


----------



## JRTomlin

I *think* that the difference in those who have tanked and those who haven't may be perma-frees. Why this should be I have no idea, but it seems to be a fairly consistent factor. I have done recent promotions, including in Freebooksy and some places that it is possible (and this is NOT an accusation) could pump their results artificially.  However, I am in doubts that advertising a 5 day Select freebie would be enough to flag you, and in fact the results of that promotion were better than I expected since it wasn't a Bookbub one. At about the same time I ran a Bookbub promotion for the first novel in my trilogy. The two promotions together seemed to build off each other which is, I think, why I saw better than average results (and I mean better than average for my sales history).  And I have not had a perma-free novel in about the last five years.

I suspect that Amazon is right that whatever has happened, Page-Flip is not a big factor. In my opinion, that does not make it all right. Amazon agreed to pay us for all legitimate page reads. They aren't disputing they are legitimate so we should be paid for them. I must admit that for me, the Page-Flip issue is a matter of principle. 

This is probably our new normal for as long as it lasts. Many centuries ago Heraclitus said 'The only constant is change', or something like that, so we just have to adjust in one way or another. Of course, that's easy for me to say since I'm not one of the ones affected, but that doesn't mean I won't be the next time.


----------



## phoenixwaller

michaelsnuckols said:


> ...
> 
> - Page read scams with bots also affect book rank. Let 1,000 robots download your book - even if they don't read it -- and that book will hit #1 of that category. I wonder if Amazon changed their algorithm so that a borrow no longer affects rank. If they did this, maybe they changed it so that 100% page reads -- at an "appropriate" reading pace -- trigger a "borrow" and change in rank. (Maybe a few authors need to track their rank in relation to page reads for a while to test this?)


I'm still a couple pages behind, but wanted to address this part of your theory while it is fresh in my mind. (I'm 99% sure somebody else would have said the same, but in case not...)

If Amazon changed things so that a minimum threshold of percentage is required to appropriately flag the borrow, then it's even more important that they start reporting borrows again. Even something like Borrows vs. average percentage read. Some will read all the way and some a few pages, but knowing if more people are reading through, or abandoning, would really help authors to know if their books aren't hitting their audiences. Amazon wants quality, and that kind of info helps us give readers a better product.


----------



## Atunah

Atlantisatheart said:


> Yep, and with my reader hat on I have to say how annoying that is. Part of the joy of reading is looking at the cover with expectation and then opening the book to delve in. I think it takes away a little of the magic and makes me remember what I miss about a physical book in my hands.
> 
> Sorry, I digress.


Its why since the first kindle book I have read in 2008, I have always started each book by the cover. I have used every version of the go-to there is on every book I read. But first I get the popup of "about this book" for every book I newly open on my kindle. Its how I jog my memory and see what the book is about, blurb and all. If I read it, I now use the basic page flip bar to go all the way back and start at the cover. In the past it was the go-to, before we had the slide bar on the kindles.

I open every single KU book I download to my kindle. Just to make sure it works but mostly to put it at the top of the recent list. I never ever look at the "look inside" of any book. I also do not read samples. I don't like partical stories floating in my head, I have enough full stories in there as it is. 

But I read my ebooks like I always read books. From the cover on. Sets the mood for me.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Indiecognito

JRTomlin said:


> I *think* that the difference in those who have tanked and those who haven't may be perma-frees. Why this should be I have no idea, but it seems to be a fairly consistent factor. I have done recent promotions, including in Freebooksy and some places that it is possible (and this is NOT an accusation) could pump their results artificially. However, I am in doubts that advertising a 5 day Select freebie would be enough to flag you, and in fact the results of that promotion were better than I expected since it wasn't a Bookbub one. At about the same time I ran a Bookbub promotion for the first novel in my trilogy. The two promotions together seemed to build off each other which is, I think, why I saw better than average results (and I mean better than average for my sales history). And I have not had a perma-free novel in about the last five years.


I don't have permafrees or pageflip enabled books, but my sales/borrows are very wonky.


----------



## phoenixwaller

J.R. Tate said:


> Mine all open at chapter one as well and I have to go backward to see the other stuff.


isn't that just the start tag we're supposed to use anyway? I honestly kinda like it cause while I only keep my cover and copyright stuff before content I remember a time when a lot of what I would consider backmatter would be slushed before the story, and a few still put a large chunk of junk up there. 3 pages of thanking an editor, another 2 about the artist who did the cover, 2 more in an about the author... I'm impatient and am much happier skipping all that personally


----------



## JRTomlin

Well you notice the 'think'.  I still suspect perma-free is somehow at least part of what is going on, although how or why I have no clue. Then again, I've been known to wrong.

As far as perma-free, there is no doubt we aren't paid for those. Amazon has said so, but I doubt it's a large factor.


----------



## phil1861

JRTomlin said:


> I *think* that the difference in those who have tanked and those who haven't may be perma-frees. Why this should be I have no idea, but it seems to be a fairly consistent factor. I have done recent promotions, including in Freebooksy and some places that it is possible (and this is NOT an accusation) could pump their results artificially. However, I am in doubts that advertising a 5 day Select freebie would be enough to flag you, and in fact the results of that promotion were better than I expected since it wasn't a Bookbub one. At about the same time I ran a Bookbub promotion for the first novel in my trilogy. The two promotions together seemed to build off each other which is, I think, why I saw better than average results (and I mean better than average for my sales history). And I have not had a perma-free novel in about the last five years.
> 
> I suspect that Amazon is right that whatever has happened, Page-Flip is not a big factor. In my opinion, that does not make it all right. Amazon agreed to pay us for all legitimate page reads. They aren't disputing they are legitimate so we should be paid for them. I must admit that for me, the Page-Flip issue is a matter of principle.
> 
> This is probably our new normal for as long as it lasts. Many centuries ago Heraclitus said 'The only constant is change', or something like that, so we just have to adjust in one way or another. Of course, that's easy for me to say since I'm not one of the ones affected, but that doesn't mean I won't be the next time.


Whatever it was, it was enough to tank my first in series after a two day promo. Not sure if it had anything to do with who I ran through, but on a lark I tried the eBook Booster service and didn't really get much out of it (never paid for them to book before if we have questions about fraudsters and such coming from certain advertisers).

So you ran a full 5 day? Spread the promotion out over multiple days I would think then? Could be something in that, consistent activity and not a one day spike.


----------



## Indiecognito

JRTomlin said:


> Well you notice the 'think'. I still suspect perma-free is somehow at least part of what is going on, although how or why I have no clue. Then again, I've been known to wrong.
> 
> As far as perma-free, there is no doubt we aren't paid for those. Amazon has said so, but I doubt it's a large factor.


It's quite possible that it's another glitchy part of the business. There just seems to be so much wrong that I'd say every theory is valid at this point!


----------



## Atunah

Atlantisatheart said:


> Yep, I flick back to the cover every time. I don't like that pop up, it tells me how long it takes to read the book - like I'm under starters orders, and when the power goes out (I live on a small Scottish isle - it can happen when a sheep farts in the wrong direction) and I get my three fully charged kindles out to read - I'll take my own sweet time, thank you very much.


Now I have this image of you, three kindles and an island full of sheep.  Sounds heavenly.

I don't mid the time thing, I already know how long it takes me to read a book, but I like to read the blurb on top. Sometimes it also helps where it shows how many books are in the series and what book this one is.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## PhoenixS

JRTomlin said:


> Well you notice the 'think'. I still suspect perma-free is somehow at least part of what is going on, although how or why I have no clue. Then again, I've been known to wrong.


No permafrees here either. Last promo in mid-Sept, our BookBub'd book hit the rank expected, but none of the others did, including my personal book with over 6000 DLs. Tail on the BB'd book was very good but still less than expected. Tail on the other free books was nearly non-existent. The SMP catalog was down about 30% in expected reads overall (my personal was down even more). We had 11 freebies that run. Four had promo, and the other 7 were piggy-backed only for a total of just over 74,000 free downloads and a little over 3400 sales above average. Got the same canned response yesterday that others got from Ammy that all was right with the world.

What the thread on the freebie issues seemed to point to was that permafrees were, in fact, holding whatever ranks they had prior to Sept 5 so long as they weren't promo'd. Promo seemed to trigger whatever glitch in the algo calculations, and as soon as they were promo'd, they saw their ranks tumble as well. So as long the permafrees were not being promoted, they were actually being *advantaged*.


----------



## JRTomlin

PhoenixS said:


> No permafrees here either. Last promo in mid-Sept, our BookBub'd book hit the rank expected, but none of the others did, including my personal book with over 6000 DLs. Tail on the BB'd book was very good but still less than expected. Tail on the other free books was nearly non-existent. The SMP catalog was down about 30% in expected reads overall (my personal was down even more). We had 11 freebies that run. Four had promo, and the other 7 were piggy-backed only for a total of just over 74,000 free downloads and a little over 3400 sales above average. Got the same canned response yesterday that others got from Ammy that all was right with the world.
> 
> What the thread on the freebie issues seemed to point to was that permafrees were, in fact, holding whatever ranks they had prior to Sept 5 so long as they weren't promo'd. Promo seemed to trigger whatever glitch in the algo calculations, and as soon as they were promo'd, they saw their ranks tumble as well. So as long the permafrees were not being promoted, they were actually being *advantaged*.


Interesting. So it may be a spike of downloads on perma-frees that triggers it. I don't know that many people would want to have a perma-free they were afraid to promote though. But then I'm hardly an expert on perma-frees. )


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

A spike on permafrees triggers the filter?

I see no basis for that. I'm pretty sure all of the people I'm in touch with about this haven't used even a Select run much less a oermafreebie since 2014.


----------



## jloome

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> A spike on permafrees triggers the filter?
> 
> I see no basis for that. I'm pretty sure all of the people I'm in touch with about this haven't used even a Select run much less a oermafreebie since 2014.


I've been seeing a basis for it for months. So has at least one other poster in this thread. I was getting the "we're actively working to prevent fraud" email a month ago.

Yes, a spike on permafreebies triggers it. It first hit mine after my last BookBub in May, and I can demonstrate that the post-freebie sales rate has been 50% of what it was a year earlier for ever permafreebie promo I've run since.

Additionally, since taking my book off permafree four days ago, my sales are up by more than 30% and are up again today. Plus, my formerly permafree is in the top 50 of two mystery paid categories in the UK.

It has a massive effect on permafrees. Again, it seems to be if your book has been downloaded and used by sock puppeters, which I know mine has by the "customers also bought" books being 20-odd-page KU scam books.

It seems the exception to the rule on post spike sales is Bookbub but even there, the impact it had on sales is about half what it was (just still very good on sheer size). Where I'd normally get a run of about two months of sales increasing up to 100% after a bookbub add, my last one saw it tail off after about four weeks.


----------



## NotAPenguin

A lot of the authors effected (including myself) do not have any perma frees. I don't even do anything free. I think it encourages bad reviews. 

It's systemic and it's some sort of filter PLUS page flip and wherever sort of scroll back issue we are dealing with.

Is anyone who does massive volume in KU NOT seeing a major deficit?


----------



## pwtucker

What is massive volume?


----------



## jloome

NotAPenguin said:


> A lot of the authors effected (including myself) do not have any perma frees. I don't even do anything free. I think it encourages bad reviews.
> 
> It's systemic and it's some sort of filter PLUS page flip and wherever sort of scroll back issue we are dealing with.
> 
> Is anyone who does massive volume in KU NOT seeing a major deficit?


As I said earlier in the thread, I'm fairly sure at this point it affects each area differently based on fraudulent behavior in that area. So if your books are read too quickly and by flagged accounts, they'll block those KU borrows from registering. If a permafree spikes massively which could allow a flood of puppet accounts, any associated books will have their visibility reduced to discourage it.

It's a series of measures involving anything that can be borrowed or downloaded for free, in other words.

If you have bot accounts reading KU books to cheat, for example, you would have to mix it up by having the bots read other legitimate books, to avoid being caught. So they have to try and figure out which reads are legit and which fake. As bots are usually pretty simple, they'll use a series of steps including read speed, number of titles read per day, and differentiation in rate of page turns based on per page word count.

But that's actually less surgically precise than it sounds. For example, as noted, many romance readers skip read.

Similarly, if you have a 'permafree' that is downloaded regularly to legitimize 'sock puppet' accounts, Amazon's best route to stopping that is to get rid of the easy route in; so they a) made it mandatory to have $50 in purchases per account, making sock puppets much more expensive (given that they could only be used a few times before being spotted) and b) reduce the benefit of permafrees, so people stop price matching just to give away a a sample.

This makes huge amounts of sense in attacking and addressing their problem. But it's also a fundamental market shift in how their algorithms treat behavior; we either adapt or try to fight it. I'm betting on the former, based on Amazon's market share, and so far getting rid of my permafree has worked. I'm having my best day in a month today.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

I was lower in September but I'm back to my normal 500,000 pages a day in October. I'm always lower in September so I was expecting it.


----------



## JRTomlin

NotAPenguin said:


> A lot of the authors effected (including myself) do not have any perma frees. I don't even do anything free. I think it encourages bad reviews.
> 
> It's systemic and it's some sort of filter PLUS page flip and wherever sort of scroll back issue we are dealing with.
> 
> Is anyone who does massive volume in KU NOT seeing a major deficit?





Amanda M. Lee said:


> I was lower in September but I'm back to my normal 500,000 pages a day in October. I'm always lower in September so I was expecting it.


Thanks, Amanda.

I think that answers his question.


----------



## pwtucker

Yup.


----------



## Northern pen

Are people noticing significantly shorter tails on 0.99 promos ?


----------



## Abalone

It seems to depend on the weather, Robyn. In other words, no idea. There's too many variables. I noticed a small dip in KENPC for September but not a huge one. Maybe I got lucky. Who knows. I have no permafees and rarely do free days through KDPS. I don't believe in giving out your hard work for free. It often attracts a certain person who's never happy about what they get or do in life. And that translates to awful reviews. .99 is the lowest I'll ever go. 

For what it's worth, I've had a .99 special lose its appeal over a 72 hour period, peaking at only 8K and standing down to around 13-17K depending on day to day sales. I've had introductory .99 works enter the huddle at 15K, peak in the high hundreds and hold steady in the low to mid thousands for weeks. I thread superstition sometimes. My successful days are always Thursdays and Fridays.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Has ANYONE heard anything new?


----------



## David VanDyke

katygirl said:


> The same thing is happening with me regarding BookReport It trickles in all day, but then about 8-9:00 in the evening, it stops. I've stayed up until midnight a few times, and when it turns over, I'll have anywhere from 800-1200 page reads instantly drop in at midnight.


KDP reporting seems to run on GMT. If you set your computer clock to GMT, it will report smoothly every hour of every day, without that gap and jump at midnight.


----------



## Hope

David VanDyke said:


> KDP reporting seems to run on GMT. If you set your computer clock to GMT, it will report smoothly every hour of every day, without that gap and jump at midnight.


Good to know. Thanks!


----------



## NotAPenguin

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I was lower in September but I'm back to my normal 500,000 pages a day in October. I'm always lower in September so I was expecting it.


That is VERY good to hear. Do you believe you were effected by the glitch? I'm in the same range normally and my page reads are very low.

Is anyone else seeing a normalizing ATM?

I suspect if this gets fixed, we won't hear a peep about it. Not officially anyway.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

NotAPenguin said:


> That is VERY good to hear. Do you believe you were effected by the glitch? I'm in the same range normally and my page reads are very low.
> 
> Is anyone else seeing a normalizing ATM?
> 
> I suspect if this gets fixed, we won't hear a peep about it. Not officially anyway.


No. I don't believe I was affected. Like I said, Septembers are always bad for me. That's a low volume month for me and that's exactly what I saw.


----------



## RedAlert

It still makes no sense.  Why didn't Amazon just say something like, "Because we have lost millions of dollars due to permafrees, you can no longer have any permafrees."

How do you think Amazon is handling its own free countdown days?  Is it safe to have a countdown run when you launch?

The spike thing triggering the algo is also bewildering.  If that were the case, how could you possibly promote your book??  It's insane.  If Amazon won't tell you what they're doing, how can you possibly plan to thread the needle?

I won't have a dog in the hunt until 2017, but if this is the way it is, I'll settle for the tedium of going wide.  I loved how someone up thread suggested to avoid the algo spots that trigger.  Problem is, I'm too stupid to figure all that out.  I'm not likely to keep a spread sheet on what triggers the negative algos.  Especially when they are not paying the .10 they promised to begin with.  Or, what they suggested would be nearly the case when they changed over.  For .0005 or whatever, is it worth all the headaches to come?  I'm never going to be an A List writer, anyway.  I'm more concerned with CreateSpace.  They're going to mess that up, too, wait and see. 

I missed the Golden Age of EBook Publishing.  I have to accept it, make a plan, and move forward.


----------



## jloome

NotAPenguin said:


> That is VERY good to hear. Do you believe you were effected by the glitch? I'm in the same range normally and my page reads are very low.
> 
> Is anyone else seeing a normalizing ATM?
> 
> I suspect if this gets fixed, we won't hear a peep about it. Not officially anyway.


It's behaviorally tied and they'll probably tweak it repeatedly until unnoticeable, coupled with behavior changes by authors.

My permafree seems so "tainted" by sockpuppet association that I don't think it'll ever be usable as a free promo again, if they keep this system up. I've run at least fifteen promos since it started, going back to the summer, and it has spiked every one of htem after two days. Every time.

It's now five days since I shifted it to .99 cents and it has performed better day after day. It was in the top sixty-five in two different mystery subs yesterday in the UK, and the top 20,000 paid in U.S. and the sequels are beginning to sell again.

The only case where the immediate spikes didn't happen was BookBub, but it still was severely curtailed compared to last year's ads. Bbub is so powerful it could start an imprint tomorrow and actually make an impact in the market, and is almost certainly getting some deference from the Zon.


----------



## NotAPenguin

People are seeing major dips without perma frees... Only that one author seems to be fine out of every high volume author I have spoken to. Anyone else?


----------



## dragontucker

I wonder if some genres are being hit harder than others? Perhaps a thread for this would be useful?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

We have an author here who publishes science fiction who's been hit and I know an thriller author who's been hit. There must be more.


----------



## jloome

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> We have an author here who publishes science fiction who's been hit and I know an thriller author who's been hit. There must be more.


Also mystery, historical fiction and one non-fiction so far.

It seems across the board; any book that can be accessed without payment, i.e. under sub or free, is preferential for fraudsters as they work in volume. So that's likely what is affected.


----------



## Nothing To See

dragontucker said:


> I wonder if some genres are being hit harder than others? Perhaps a thread for this would be useful?


I think the working theory is there are certain genres being hit harder, like romance (although I've personally heard of sci-fi and thriller authors with similar page read issues). If there's an overactive fraud filter, it would stand to reason that it might hit certain genres harder than others because of reader behavior (eg, voracious reading habits or speed-reading).


----------



## A past poster

Has anyone else noticed that the Amazon algorithms have been heavily weighted toward favoring books published by Amazon? Those books, which are in KU, don't seem to be having a problem.  There are members of this board who have published under one of the Amazon imprints who haven't participated on this thread.


----------



## NotAPenguin

jloome said:


> Also mystery, historical fiction and one non-fiction so far.
> 
> It seems across the board; any book that can be accessed without payment, i.e. under sub or free, is preferential for fraudsters as they work in volume. So that's likely what is affected.


Any book period

Not just freebies

Why are people getting stuck on that? It's everyone except that witch book author apparently

And who knows, maybe she should be getting 1,000,000 a day


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

NotAPenguin said:


> Any book period
> 
> Not just freebies
> 
> Why are people getting stuck on that? It's everyone except that witch book author apparently
> 
> And who knows, maybe she should be getting 1,000,000 a day


I'm going to put "that witch book author" on my business cards.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Oh, and just to add, I know quite a few people not having issues, including a romance author who does twice as much volume as me, other mystery writers, other romance writers, other science fiction writers and other paranormal writers. In the smaller groups where I hang out more people aren't being affected than are being affected.


----------



## jloome

NotAPenguin said:


> Any book period
> 
> Not just freebies
> 
> Why are people getting stuck on that? It's everyone except that witch book author apparently
> 
> And who knows, maybe she should be getting 1,000,000 a day


You're misunderstanding my obviously poorly worded post! When I say 'freely available,' that means anything they don't have to pay for by the individual unit; if you're a scammer, KU is great, because you can use other books for sock puppet review accounts and to convince fraud software that bots are legit, but only pay one monthly fee.

I include that in the 'loved by fraud' arena; so anything free or easy to misuse, basically. Paid-per-unit books don't fall into that because it would cost the fraud artist too much.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Fraudulent accounts definitely borrow other books in an attempt to appear legitimate but I don't buy that there's enough of them doing that to cause a dramatic across the board drop in reads if the system is working correctly and only detecting real fraud.


----------



## NotAPenguin

jloome said:


> You're misunderstanding my obviously poorly worded post! When I say 'freely available,' that means anything they don't have to pay for by the individual unit; if you're a scammer, KU is great, because you can use other books for sock puppet review accounts and to convince fraud software that bots are legit, but only pay one monthly fee.
> 
> I include that in the 'loved by fraud' arena; so anything free or easy to misuse, basically. Paid-per-unit books don't fall into that because it would cost the fraud artist too much.


Ah, gotcha

So Amazon is screwing us bc of the bottom of the barrel scum. What are we going to do about it?

Is it wrong to hope the scammer guys all develops an uncomfortable rash?


----------



## NotAPenguin

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I'm going to put "that witch book author" on my business cards.


Lol sorry I'm not good with names.

I'm getting feedback from people with prominent rank and their page read numbers look crazy low to me. CRAZY LOW.

Shrug. I don't know what to make of it. Not sure who you are talking to bc I'm also talking to prominent romance authors who do over a million on a regular day and none of them are having normal reads.

Im pretty much yapping to every author I know (yeah realize it's a big community but I do know a lot of authors). Guess you're friends are just lucky? That seems really odd. Maybe people with reps are getting special treatment.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

NotAPenguin said:


> Lol sorry I'm not good with names.
> 
> I'm getting feedback from people with prominent rank and their page read numbers look crazy low to me. CRAZY LOW.
> 
> Shrug. I don't know what to make of it. Not sure who you are talking to bc I'm also talking to prominent romance authors who do over a million on a regular day and none of them are having normal reads.
> 
> Im pretty much yapping to every author I know (yeah realize it's a big community but I do know a lot of authors). Guess you're friends are just lucky? That seems really odd. Maybe people with reps are getting special treatment.


I'm talking to big names, too, and they don't seem to be having huge issues. Sorry.


----------



## Used To Be BH

RedAlert said:


> It still makes no sense. Why didn't Amazon just say something like, "Because we have lost millions of dollars due to permafrees, you can no longer have any permafrees."
> 
> How do you think Amazon is handling its own free countdown days? Is it safe to have a countdown run when you launch?
> 
> The spike thing triggering the algo is also bewildering. If that were the case, how could you possibly promote your book?? It's insane. If Amazon won't tell you what they're doing, how can you possibly plan to thread the needle?
> 
> I won't have a dog in the hunt until 2017, but if this is the way it is, I'll settle for the tedium of going wide. I loved how someone up thread suggested to avoid the algo spots that trigger. Problem is, I'm too stupid to figure all that out. I'm not likely to keep a spread sheet on what triggers the negative algos. Especially when they are not paying the .10 they promised to begin with. Or, what they suggested would be nearly the case when they changed over. For .0005 or whatever, is it worth all the headaches to come? I'm never going to be an A List writer, anyway. I'm more concerned with CreateSpace. They're going to mess that up, too, wait and see.
> 
> I missed the Golden Age of EBook Publishing. I have to accept it, make a plan, and move forward.


With regard to the first point, yes, logically Amazon should just have forbidden permafree books if that was what it wanted to do. Actually, because the TOS already prohibits books from being priced lower on other outlets than they are on Amazon, the company wouldn't need to change a thing. It could simply demand under current TOS that the price on other outlets be raised to the price on Amazon. The fact that its practice has so radically differed from its own written policy always puzzled me.

That said, this pattern may make sense from Amazon's point of view. When I was teaching, I saw something similar with some administrators. They saw a teacher doing something they didn't like, but rather than deal with the teacher (and the arguments the teacher would make), they created restrictive policies designed to change the teacher's behaviour without having to have the awkward discussion. In the process, of course, they negatively impacted a whole bunch of other teachers who weren't doing anything inappropriate in the first place but then got saddled with all kind of burdensome regulations. I can see some of Amazon's officials figuring they'd have to respond to complaints from a lot of people if they just eliminated permafree, so instead they let people keep permafree but silently changed the algorithm to penalize it.

Naturally, it would be better if Amazon was open about what it was doing and why. I do, however, see Amazon's point a little. If someone explains the steps being taken to prevent scams, the scammers will be able to adapt more easily. While that is true, I believe Amazon also needs to take into consideration the very thing the school administrators in my analogy didn't: the way in which the approach affects innocent people. From the examples earlier in the thread, it sounds as if a lot of people are getting caught in algorithms designed to punish behavior of which they aren't actually guilty. Having a permafree first in series is a common marketing technique, not just a tool of scammers.

With regard to how one can do promos with an algorithm in place to punish spikes, someone hinted earlier that perhaps Amazon is trying, without actually saying it, of course, to get people to focus on the promotional mechanisms Amazon provides: free promos, countdowns, AMS ads, that sort of thing. (Of course, one has to be in Select to do any of that, and people who have price-matched to get permafree obviously can't.) I'm going to give Amazon the benefit of the doubt and assume it isn't really trying to force everyone into Select, but it does sound as if it has set up algorithms to catch what it has identified as inappropriate behavior but hasn't crafted those algorithms narrowly enough to avoid huge amounts of collateral damage. I'd imagine the algorithm excludes spikes caused by Amazon promos but doesn't account for other kinds of legitimate promotional activity.

The same thing is probably true of the KU issue that started the thread in the first place. Page Flip may contribute, but we have only anecdotal evidence people are reading books that way. We don't have reliable statistics, so we can only guess how significant a factor that could be. Knowing, however, that Amazon is trying to reduce fraudulent KU reads, it's easy to theorize that those algorithms also are casting too wide a net.

We probably all agree with the general goal of curtailing scams and frauds. It's just too bad Amazon hasn't yet developed a more nuanced approach to those issues.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I'm talking to big names, too, and they don't seem to be having huge issues. Sorry.


That's definitely intersting (and confusing) to hear. Are they romance category? Do they have reps?

Thank you Amanda


----------



## sela

I'm not a big fan of KU. I think it's a reality that we indie authors have to deal with. I hold my nose and take the plunge now and then, putting my books in KU to see how they do. I think it can work well for new authors and authors who have the kind of books that KU readers crave.

That said, I haven't seen any hard data on the drop in page reads / sales that took place in September, which many suggest is the result of some new glitch in the algorithms or perhaps some new process put in place to fight scammers.

I don't want to downplay concerns about any author's sales. Any time your income drops significantly, it's scary.

However, I posted my stats for the last couple of years and you can see that my income varies tremendously from month to month.

I post it again for your consideration:



You can see that one month, I earned $32K while another month I earned just over $12K. I can attribute those differences to:

1) Bookbub month
2) New release month
3) Month with no Bookbub or new release
4) Several months without a new release
5) Hitting various cliffs

There are many reasons why my revenues go up or down. If a whole lot of people start seeing the same kind of drop in page reads at the same time, I am apt to consider that something is going on with Amazon. I have not seen anyone post hard numbers though, so how can I know if what we are seeing is due to seasonal fluctuations, like Amanda suggested, or some glitch in Amazon's algorithm, or some corrections to the page read glitch that are hitting KU authors hard?

Here's my data for the time before and during my current run in KU:



You can see I put a series in KU in September and saw a rise, and then fluctuations around an average. My data isn't all that helpful because I wasn't in KU before September in any big way.

It would sure help to see people affected by this to post their graphs so we can all see the decline. I'm not saying it isn't happening, or that this isn't a real thing. It would just be helpful to see some hard data instead of claims without anything to back them up.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Also there are so many of us, in each level of volume- even regular 25k bonus all star types like I assume Amanda and I are polling - I just want to get to the bottom of this.

Is anyone else in a relatively high volume having normal reads on a new release? And if so, what genre and do you have a rep?


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

NotAPenguin said:


> That's definitely intersting (and confusing) to hear. Are they romance category? Do they have reps?
> 
> Thank you Amanda


Yes to the first. At least one has a rep to the second. I have no idea on the others but I'm going to guess not.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

NotAPenguin said:


> Also there are so many of us, in each level of volume- even regular 25k bonus all star types like I assume Amanda and I are polling - I just want to get to the bottom of this.
> 
> Is anyone else in a relatively high volume having normal reads on a new release? And if so, what genre and do you have a rep?


What do reps have to do with it?


----------



## Used To Be BH

Marian said:


> Has anyone else noticed that the Amazon algorithms have been heavily weighted toward favoring books published by Amazon? Those books, which are in KU, don't seem to be having a problem. There are members of this board who have published under one of the Amazon imprints who haven't participated on this thread.


The most recent Author Earning Report shows a drop in indie market share for the first time in 27 months. The Big Five had a little uptick, small and medium publishers a somewhat bigger one, but the biggest jump (more than half of what indies lost) went to Amazon imprints.

That doesn't necessarily mean Amazon is skewing the algorithms. It probably does mean Amazon is advertising its books more. Physical bookstores used to do that all the time. Barnes and Noble, for example, had its own press for reprints and bargain books, and those inevitably got the best display space when compared to comparable works from other publishers.

Those imprints have been around for a while, but not that many titles were released, and they tended to be spread out, at least from what I could tell. With the advent of Kindle Scout, the flow of imprint books (Kindle Press) increased substantially, and there are releases much more often (like every few days). Assuming Amazon throws some advertising at each one (what would be the point otherwise?), that means more of the finite time each shopper is on Amazon they will be looking at ads for imprint books. How much effect that has is difficult to say, but it will have some.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Amanda M. Lee said:


> What do reps have to do with it?


No idea. I'm trying to figure out why some people are affected so dramatically and others not. Seems like that might be a factor. Maybe some people are having their reads screened and some are not.

That itself seems odd to me. But from what you are saying, that is what is happening.

Either that or it's 100% reader behavior- skimming or reading certain (even MOST) authors very quickly.

Again, you and your mysterious (maybe even witchy?) friends are the only ones who are reporting normal high profile reads on new releases as far as I know. That's why I keep asking.

Anyone? Bueller?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Reps are useless and will repeat the same thing the frontline KDP customer service reps say in form letter emails.

They don't represent you to Amazon, they represent Amazon to you. The best they could possibly offer is putting an author in touch with someone actually has some technical or management insight into what KDP is doing.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

NotAPenguin said:


> No idea. I'm trying to figure out why some people are affected so dramatically and others not. Seems like that might be a factor. Maybe some people are having their reads screened and some are not.
> 
> That itself seems odd to me. But from what you are saying, that is what is happening.
> 
> Either that or it's 100% reader behavior- skimming or reading certain (even MOST) authors very quickly.
> 
> Again, you and your mysterious (maybe even witchy?) friends are the only ones who are reporting normal high profile reads on new releases as far as I know. That's why I keep asking.
> 
> Anyone? Bueller?


I think you're assuming that everyone is complaining when that's not the case. Those being affected would naturally complain ... and loudly. Those not being affected go on about their days. That's the bulk of authors I know -- and I know a lot of them. No one is minimizing the feelings of others and I can understand it's frightening. That doesn't mean the bulk of people are being affected by any stretch of the imagination. If you think reps are wandering around tallying reads, you have another thing coming, though.


----------



## Used To Be BH

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Fraudulent accounts definitely borrow other books in an attempt to appear legitimate but I don't buy that there's enough of them doing that to cause a dramatic across the board drop in reads if the system is working correctly and only detecting real fraud.


The system is not working correctly, at least not entirely. The problem with the point you make, as with so many other potentially valid points, is that we don't really have enough data. We can speculate about how many fraudulent accounts borrow legitimate books, but we don't know.

Using the earlier impact of click farms on social media as a somewhat similar case, I recall seeing statistics that fake accounts often liked more legitimate FB pages than ones they were trying to artificially inflate. The closer a particular social media outlet got to gaining control over the situation, the more legitimate things the scammers interacted with to camouflage their activities.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

We can't know for sure, but we can infer. The most obvious thing a bot account could do to look legitimate is randomly download and read other books.

I really doubt that they're responsible for a significant fraction of total reads or that some authors have 90% bot account reads for no reason.

It's a good guess, and I think highly likely, that Amazon wants to catch those fraudulent accounts more to balance the KU bonus payouts but they've made their criteria too wide or the system too sensitive and it's flagging legit reads.

Amanda M Lee, on your account that's bringing in 500k reads a day, how many books were published after September 5th? Almost everyone I've talked to agrees that was when this system was implemented.

I'm getting completely normal reads off my backlist. This only appears to affect new books. If you have a robust backlist as I suspect you do, it makes perfect sense that you wouldn't see much impact.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> We can't know for sure, but we can infer. The most obvious thing a bot account could do to look legitimate is randomly download and read other books.
> 
> I really doubt that they're responsible for a significant fraction of total reads or that some authors have 90% bot account reads for no reason.
> 
> It's a good guess, and I think highly likely, that Amazon wants to catch those fraudulent accounts more to balance the KU bonus payouts but they've made their criteria too wide or the system too sensitive and it's flagging legit reads.
> 
> Amanda M Lee, on your account that's bringing in 500k reads a day, how many books were published after September 5th? Almost everyone I've talked to agrees that was when this system was implemented.
> 
> I'm getting completely normal reads off my backlist. This only appears to affect new books. If you have a robust backlist as I suspect you do, it makes perfect sense that you wouldn't see much impact.


I've had five titles under two names published since then. Other than delayed also boughts on one title, they've all been performing normally.


----------



## Used To Be BH

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think you're assuming that everyone is complaining when that's not the case. Those being affected would naturally complain ... and loudly. Those not being affected go on about their days. That's the bulk of authors I know -- and I know a lot of them. No one is minimizing the feelings of others and I can understand it's frightening. That doesn't mean the bulk of people are being affected by any stretch of the imagination. If you think reps are wandering around tallying reads, you have another thing coming, though.


Yes, that's another data problem. The folks here, well informed as they may be, aren't necessarily a representative sample. We don't actually know for sure how much the average KDP author is being affected.

Perhaps the best course, as some have tried to do earlier, would be to identify common variables that exist in all or most cases of affected authors. Earlier generalizations have not held up completely. For instance, it isn't just romance writers, and it isn't just people with permafree titles. The idea that it's mostly people getting hit with guilt by association because fraudulent accounts may be borrowing their books could be a good one, but since we don't know who borrows our titles, that's a pretty hard theory to prove or disprove.

The question, then, is what other common elements might exist among affected authors?


----------



## Used To Be BH

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> We can't know for sure, but we can infer. The most obvious thing a bot account could do to look legitimate is randomly download and read other books.
> 
> I really doubt that they're responsible for a significant fraction of total reads or that some authors have 90% bot account reads for no reason.
> 
> It's a good guess, and I think highly likely, that Amazon wants to catch those fraudulent accounts more to balance the KU bonus payouts but they've made their criteria too wide or the system too sensitive and it's flagging legit reads.
> 
> Amanda M Lee, on your account that's bringing in 500k reads a day, how many books were published after September 5th? Almost everyone I've talked to agrees that was when this system was implemented.
> 
> I'm getting completely normal reads off my backlist. This only appears to affect new books. If you have a robust backlist as I suspect you do, it makes perfect sense that you wouldn't see much impact.


I apologize for not being clear. I didn't mean to suggest that anyone was getting 90% of their reads--or anything close--from bot activity. What I was thinking was that a much lower threshold might get people unfairly lumped with possible cheaters. I agree with you that Amazon is probably casting too wide a net.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think you're assuming that everyone is complaining when that's not the case. Those being affected would naturally complain ... and loudly. Those not being affected go on about their days. That's the bulk of authors I know -- and I know a lot of them. No one is minimizing the feelings of others and I can understand it's frightening. That doesn't mean the bulk of people are being affected by any stretch of the imagination. If you think reps are wandering around tallying reads, you have another thing coming, though.


Haha. No, I don't think they are sitting there counting pages. I'm looking for (wait for it) ... Information! ANY INFORMATION. I am asking for anyyyyyone else with normal high volume page reads to pipe up.

Massive numbers of authors are blogging and tweeting about this. It's not a handful of people who are just having bad luck or unsuccesful books. Not sure why you are trying to say that or what you gain from it. I'm happy for you that you aren't affected. Thats good! I put in it my second hand fact pile along with everyone else who has shown me their charts.

Amazon has confirmed they are screening page reads. They have also confirmed that pages read in page flip are not counted. Readers have confirmed that they are reading in page flip. Even if you don't know it, everyone could be impacted by that.

If you aren't affected, I'm a little curious why you are even concerning ourself with this thread?


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

NotAPenguin said:


> Haha. No, I don't think they are sitting there counting pages. I'm looking for (wait for it) ... Information! ANY INFORMATION. I am asking for anyyyyyone else with normal high volume page reads to pipe up.
> 
> Massive numbers of authors are blogging and tweeting about this. It's not a handful of people who are just having bad luck or unsuccesful books. Not sure why you are trying to say that or what you gain from it. I'm happy for you that you aren't affected. Thats good! I put in it my second hand fact pile along with everyone else who has shown me their charts.
> 
> Amazon has confirmed they are screening page reads. They have also confirmed that pages read in page flip are not counted. Readers have confirmed that they are reading in page flip. Even if you don't know it, everyone could be impacted by that.
> 
> If you aren't affected, I'm a little curious why you are even concerning ourself with this thread?


I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to comment without permission. Good to know.


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass

NotApenguin. Just to confirm what Amanda is saying. My page reads held steady at around 30K per day in Sept. With 3 pen names with 25 books across 4 genres.

Most of the other authors I know are not reporting any fall off. I know a Romance writer making $400K per year and they have not had any fall off on page reads. 

I am not saying that some authors aren't experiencing problems. Only that not all authors are. As a former software engineer I am very curious to understand what is going on. Believe me, I know how software can become screwed up. A small change here, impacts a large function over there. But, usually is breaks everyone, not just a few.

This is why it is so confusing. If it was an Amazon algo change, you would think it would impact everyone across the board and that is not happening.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to comment without permission. Good to know.


Lol I didn't say that.


----------



## NotAPenguin

G.L. Snodgrass said:


> NotApenguin. Just to confirm what Amanda is saying. My page reads held steady at around 30K per day in Sept. With 3 pen names with 25 books across 4 genres.
> 
> Most of the other authors I know are not reporting any fall off. I know a Romance writer making $400K per year and they have not had any fall off on page reads.
> 
> I am not saying that some authors aren't experiencing problems. Only that not all authors are. As a former software engineer I am very curious to understand what is going on. Believe me, I know how software can become screwed up. A small change here, impacts a large function over there. But, usually is breaks everyone, not just a few.
> 
> This is why it is so confusing. If it was an Amazon algo change, you would think it would impact everyone across the board and that is not happening.


Thank you! Alright this is getting very interesting.

Would you mind sharing the genres?

I've seen multiple charts of people in the top 20 that seem absolutely ridiculously low to me. My reads are not dramatically impacted either but I don't have a new release.

It's SO confusing!


----------



## tresero

G.L. Snodgrass said:


> NotApenguin. Just to confirm what Amanda is saying. My page reads held steady at around 30K per day in Sept. With 3 pen names with 25 books across 4 genres.
> 
> Most of the other authors I know are not reporting any fall off. I know a Romance writer making $400K per year and they have not had any fall off on page reads.
> 
> I am not saying that some authors aren't experiencing problems. Only that not all authors are. As a former software engineer I am very curious to understand what is going on. Believe me, I know how software can become screwed up. A small change here, impacts a large function over there. But, usually is breaks everyone, not just a few.
> 
> This is why it is so confusing. If it was an Amazon algo change, you would think it would impact everyone across the board and that is not happening.


Steady? Wouldn't you expect your sales to grow month over month? That's how a business works.

The big question is how do you know you aren't affected? Steady? That's not really a test. I've posted my numbers multiple times, and I get about the same page reads as you, maybe higher until Sept. I attributed Sept to a month with no releases (well, a release in Kindle Worlds, but that doesn't show on KDP, another screwy disconnect but I digress).

Oct, had a new release and going solely by historical numbers, the release is 90% down. Other releases with around the same KENPC average 200 pages or so per sale. This release is averaging 45 and it's been 12 days now. Sure it could be a dog, but... As I also posted, I did an anonymous survey of my users and out of 700 responses so far since yesterday, 70 have confirmed reading the entire story. KDP shows 5291 pages read. The book is 225 KENPC, so not even counting the dozens that haven't said they read the whole thing, that should be 15750 pages read. That's conservative, only readers who answered the survey and said they finished it. So, I'm down at least 66% of page reads more like 90% when reality takes over. I'm guessing 66% of my readers are bots, that answer surveys?

Yes, there is a problem, If you aren't affected, I'm happy for you, but I still question how you know you aren't affected.


----------



## NotAPenguin

tresero said:


> Yes, there is a problem, If you aren't affected, I'm happy for you, but I still question how you know you aren't affected.


This is also my concern and why I'm canvassing as thoroughly as possible before I release anything new...

Again I've seen some very high-profile authors and newer but successful authors impacted.

Everyone I've talked to about this is the same (present company excluded I guess? Wink, nudge say no more) We just want the problem solved. And there is a problem, even if it's impacting some more than others.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

tresero said:


> Steady? Wouldn't you expect your sales to grow month over month? That's how a business works.
> 
> The big question is how do you know you aren't affected? Steady? That's not really a test. I've posted my numbers multiple times, and I get about the same page reads as you, maybe higher until Sept. I attributed Sept to a month with no releases (well, a release in Kindle Worlds, but that doesn't show on KDP, another screwy disconnect but I digress).
> 
> Oct, had a new release and going solely by historical numbers, the release is 90% down. Other releases with around the same KENPC average 200 pages or so per sale. This release is averaging 45 and it's been 12 days now. Sure it could be a dog, but... As I also posted, I did an anonymous survey of my users and out of 700 responses so far since yesterday, 70 have confirmed reading the entire story. KDP shows 5291 pages read. The book is 225 KENPC, so not even counting the dozens that haven't said they read the whole thing, that should be 15750 pages read. That's conservative, only readers who answered the survey and said they finished it. So, I'm down at least 66% of page reads more like 90% when reality takes over. I'm guessing 66% of my readers are bots, that answer surveys?
> 
> Yes, there is a problem, If you aren't affected, I'm happy for you, but I still question how you know you aren't affected.


Reads don't grow in a vacuum. New releases put reads higher. Books falling in ranking as they tumble over cliffs put reads lower. There is no such thing as exponential growth. A multitude of factors play in. I manage to keep my reads in a certain window with frequent releases. My November, for example, should have huge reads. My October has very good reads. My Seprember was lower, but again, I was expecting it because volume always shrinks for me during that month. I think it has to do with my reader base being extremely busy with back to school stuff. Reads don't just keep growing forever each time you publish a book, though. A multitude of factors play into it.


----------



## RedAlert

@ Bill Hiatt - Thank you for your well-reasoned reply.

"With regard to how one can do promos with an algorithm in place to punish spikes, someone hinted earlier that perhaps Amazon is trying, without actually saying it, of course, to get people to focus on the promotional mechanisms Amazon provides: free promos, countdowns, AMS ads, that sort of thing. (Of course, one has to be in Select to do any of that, and people who have price-matched to get permafree obviously can't.)"

Well,  it's becoming too much for me.  I am becoming weary of Amazon's relentless efforts to show me every freaking product in their store in order to get me to buy something.  They have increased their advertising everywhere, which is annoying now, and the whole thing is exhausting.  Gotta say, if the above became the situation where my efforts to promote outside of Amazon actually punishes me, and I find out, I am gone, gone, gone.  I think I am gone anyway at this point, but I'll never be tempted by them.

I'm just going back to writing as much as I can, making a marketing plan that doesn't include this bull$h**t from Amazon, and hope to make a modest living that is peaceful and quiet.  I want freedom, some excitement from innovative advertising whatevers, and that's it.  My goal is five regular readers, which should get me some peanut butter cups, for which I have developed a craving.

Despite the attempts at reassurance that this is normal, I don't believe it is.  I have read this board for years.  Something is wrong.  I dislike change, for sure, but it's not that.  And, I just want to say, that I LOVE buying stuff from Amazon.  But, I want to choose.  For anything I buy, and anything I write.

Thank you for your post.  You added a perspective that I did not see before.


----------



## Becca Mills

NotAPenguin said:


> Haha. No, I don't think they are sitting there counting pages. I'm looking for (wait for it) ... Information! ANY INFORMATION. I am asking for anyyyyyone else with normal high volume page reads to pipe up.
> 
> Massive numbers of authors are blogging and tweeting about this. It's not a handful of people who are just having bad luck or unsuccesful books. Not sure why you are trying to say that or what you gain from it. I'm happy for you that you aren't affected. Thats good! I put in it my second hand fact pile along with everyone else who has shown me their charts.
> 
> Amazon has confirmed they are screening page reads. They have also confirmed that pages read in page flip are not counted. Readers have confirmed that they are reading in page flip. Even if you don't know it, everyone could be impacted by that.
> 
> If you aren't affected, I'm a little curious why you are even concerning ourself with this thread?


Well, it's a good thing she is though, right? Because she's the kind of person you're asking to hear from (high volume, not affected). Perhaps you're not be hearing from more people like Amanda because they're not following this thread -- reading 50 pages of posts on a problem that's not affecting you is a big ask, so the thread selects for people who *are *having the problem. Amanda's unusually generous with her time, I suspect.


----------



## ImaWriter

NotAPenguin said:


> If you aren't affected, I'm a little curious why you are even concerning ourself with this thread?


Seriously? 

I can think of a couple of reasons. Because she--and Sela, since she's been chiming in here as well--are both trying to be helpful and offer insights. Those insights might be the other side of the coin, but are still valid. Because she is a long-time member of this forum, and a respected one at that. Because not everyone is being hugely and adversely impacted by this. You want data. She is sharing data. "Massive numbers of authors" may have an issue, but it seems to me that a far greater number have nothing to say. Are all those authors paying no attention to their earnings? I think not.

Clearly, there's something going on here. And a lot of authors are hit by it. You all have my sympathies.

Other than that, I don't have anything of consequence to add. I'm not in KU and not impacted by this, but I have been following the thread and felt compelled to address your remark. (In case you need to ask why I'm concerning myself with this thread.)


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Becca Mills said:


> Well, it's a good thing she is though, right? Because she's the kind of person you're asking to hear from (high volume, not affected). Perhaps you're not be hearing from more people like Amanda because they're not following this thread -- reading 50 pages of posts on a problem that's not affecting you is a big ask, so the thread selects for people who *are *having the problem. Amanda's unusually generous with her time, I suspect.


I also have an easy writing week and my phone close while watching horror movies.


----------



## AllyWho

tresero said:


> Steady? Wouldn't you expect your sales to grow month over month? That's how a business works.


Book sales don't have positive inertia. You cannot do nothing and expect growth every month. As Amanda said, it takes a regular release schedule and promotion to keep sales ticking along and growing.

I'm a prawn, I haven't noticed any change. I'm in groups with a range of authors from bestsellers to newbies and there might be one or two seeing a downturn. That's it. Apart from the vocal minority in this thread, I'm not seeing the *massive* and *widespread* catastrophic drop some are claiming. In the other groups I'm in, the majority aren't affected or seeing anything funky other than the regular fluctuations that are expected without promo or a new release. But since people who aren't affected are expected to shut up and keep quiet, all you are going to hear is those who have bought the Amazon conspiracy theory. I think that's called confirmation bias...


----------



## NotAPenguin

Becca Mills said:


> Well, it's a good thing she is though, right? Because she's the kind of person you're asking to hear from (high volume, not affected). Perhaps you're not be hearing from more people like Amanda because they're not following this thread -- reading 50 pages of posts on a problem that's not affecting you is a big ask, so the thread selects for people who *are *having the problem. Amanda's unusually generous with her time, I suspect.


Lol, yes of course! I did thank her the first few times she said it.

I'm in other forums where everyone is having this issue...

Oh and totally agree September is usually bollocks! Maybe that made the situation seem worse. But there is a situation. And it's extremely concerning!

I just want to get to the bottom of it, like (almost) everyone else!


----------



## Sarah Shaw

NotAPenguin said:


> Haha. No, I don't think they are sitting there counting pages. I'm looking for (wait for it) ... Information! ANY INFORMATION. I am asking for anyyyyyone else with normal high volume page reads to pipe up.
> 
> Massive numbers of authors are blogging and tweeting about this. It's not a handful of people who are just having bad luck or unsuccesful books. Not sure why you are trying to say that or what you gain from it. I'm happy for you that you aren't affected. Thats good! I put in it my second hand fact pile along with everyone else who has shown me their charts.
> 
> Amazon has confirmed they are screening page reads. They have also confirmed that pages read in page flip are not counted. Readers have confirmed that they are reading in page flip. Even if you don't know it, everyone could be impacted by that.
> 
> If you aren't affected, I'm a little curious why you are even concerning ourself with this thread?


Wow, that's a pretty complete self-contradiction. I'm sitting here trying to figure out whether I want to put my first book in KU. The LAST thing I need is for the people who are being affected to scream so loudly that they drown out all other data points. If you are truly interested in information you ought to be begging more authors who aren't affected to come forward as well. Otherwise you're just skewing the data and making it impossible for anyone to draw any meaningful conclusions.


----------



## JRTomlin

NotAPenguin said:


> Haha. No, I don't think they are sitting there counting pages. I'm looking for (wait for it) ... Information! ANY INFORMATION. I am asking for anyyyyyone else with normal high volume page reads to pipe up.
> 
> Massive numbers of authors are blogging and tweeting about this. It's not a handful of people who are just having bad luck or unsuccesful books. Not sure why you are trying to say that or what you gain from it. I'm happy for you that you aren't affected. Thats good! I put in it my second hand fact pile along with everyone else who has shown me their charts.
> 
> Amazon has confirmed they are screening page reads. They have also confirmed that pages read in page flip are not counted. Readers have confirmed that they are reading in page flip. Even if you don't know it, everyone could be impacted by that.
> 
> If you aren't affected, I'm a little curious why you are even concerning ourself with this thread?


It is interesting that you demand that a big seller post that they weren't affected, and then berate her for doing exactly what you demanded.


----------



## ......~......

NotAPenguin said:


> Everyone I've talked to about this is the same (*present company excluded I guess? Wink, nudge say no more*) We just want the problem solved. And there is a problem, even if it's impacting some more than others.


 

At least she put her name to her data, even though it's not what you wanted to hear. Where are these top 20 authors that are seeing 90% page cuts? Have they come forward publicly?


----------



## Anarchist

NotAPenguin said:


> If you aren't affected, I'm a little curious why you are even concerning ourself with this thread?


When everyone is like this...










... it's helpful to have folks like Amanda and Sela do this...


----------



## Bbates024

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I also have an easy writing week and my phone close while watching horror movies.


I love horror movies, we just finished watching the Conjuring 2 and Lights out. both were pretty fun. I'm tempted to rent 31 but Rob Zombie really let me down with Lords of Salem.... So now I don't know.

Anything new out there I should be checking out Amanda?


----------



## Moist_Tissue

NotAPenguin said:


> Haha. No, I don't think they are sitting there counting pages. I'm looking for (wait for it) ... Information! ANY INFORMATION. I am asking for anyyyyyone else with normal high volume page reads to pipe up.
> 
> Massive numbers of authors are blogging and tweeting about this. It's not a handful of people who are just having bad luck or unsuccesful books. Not sure why you are trying to say that or what you gain from it. I'm happy for you that you aren't affected. Thats good! I put in it my second hand fact pile along with everyone else who has shown me their charts.
> 
> Amazon has confirmed they are screening page reads. They have also confirmed that pages read in page flip are not counted. Readers have confirmed that they are reading in page flip. Even if you don't know it, everyone could be impacted by that.
> 
> If you aren't affected, I'm a little curious why you are even concerning ourself with this thread?


To be frank, Amanda has been an established poster on this board for quite some time. I--perhaps, just me alone--am finding it suspect that an established poster is being questioned while all these new accounts (most, if not all, just joined in the last few days & only post in this thread) are not. It's long been established that any reader or author (old & new) can post in any thread as long as they don't violate TOS.

**hears Betsy charging the cattle prod & scampers away**


----------



## NotAPenguin

Anarchist said:


> When everyone is like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... it's helpful to have folks like Amanda and Sela do this...


Absolutely! I love this. I am definitely not the cat in the scenario. I am just trying to get info- which I got and thanked one author for several times. I just wanted to build on the info we already had.

I was genuinely curious when I asked that by the way. I wasn't implying that anyone was smug or arrogant. I'm not sure why people are inferring that. I don't make character judgments on people I just met on the Internet. I'm more of a "we're all in this together" kind of person.


----------



## Crystal_

NotAPenguin said:


> Thank you! Alright this is getting very interesting.
> 
> Would you mind sharing the genres?
> 
> I've seen multiple charts of people in the top 20 that seem absolutely ridiculously low to me. My reads are not dramatically impacted either but I don't have a new release.
> 
> It's SO confusing!


I understand why authors don't want to share their charts (and I certainly wouldn't ask you to share someone else's information), but second and third hand information is not enough to nail down what the problem is. Instead, it causes more panic. Am I hearing about the same top 20 author in all these references? Or am I actually hearing about all 20 of them? It only makes things more muddy.

Now, if one of these people who is sharing charts with you would like to post their ranking, sales, KENPC per day, and book lengths, that would be helpful.

I've said this before but I'll say it again: I get 100k+ US pages most days, so I'd say I'm high volume. I'm not sure if I'm affected or not. Reads are lower than they have been, but rankings are lower too. I haven't had a new release since August (another reason why reads are likely down), but I have updated books in Aug and Sept. I can't say either way. Not the most helpful information, but not definitively a problem either.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Bbates024 said:


> I love horror movies, we just finished watching the Conjuring 2 and Lights out. both were pretty fun. I'm tempted to rent 31 but Rob Zombie really let me down with Lords of Salem.... So now I don't know.
> 
> Anything new out there I should be checking out Amanda?


I haven't seen anything new that's good in a long time. I watch horror movies whether they're good or bad, though. I'm working my way through the Friday the 13th collection right now. Jason is about to take Manhattan. It's a weak movie but I watch it anyway. Over the next two weeks I'm only writing three witch shorts (and having a big Halloween party on Saturday) so I'm doing a lot of housework and decorating while writing chapters here and there and watching an endless stream of horror movies. I think I'm going for 28 Days Later and 28 Weeks Later once I finish with the Friday the 13th collection before sliding over to some zombie fun.


----------



## smw

Quick, everyone start getting grumpy with each other over perceived slights.  Surely that will help us get to the bottom of the Amazon issue.


----------



## RuthNestvold

Okay, I'm a prawn, making a couple hundred bucks a month on Amazon, so those who only want info from big sellers can ignore me.  But it still might contribute to an idea of what is going on here. 

September was a 25% loss for me, but since the beginning of October, I pretty much got wiped out. My page reads suddenly dropped by about 90%, and my sales were down as well.

The promo theory doesn't apply to me really. The only thing I've done for the last couple of months are Patty Promos and FB ads. The latter I tend to do for a couple of weeks, until they seem to wear themselves out, and I turn them off again. 

The permafree theory might apply, but I haven't been checking the ranks for a while, so I can't judge. I have three permafrees, one of which gets so few downloads, it's immaterial.

I'm pretty sure PageFlip is hurting me, since the last time I started an FB campaign for my Pendragon books, instead of seeing a jump in pages read to compensate+ for what the ads cost, like I'm used to, I was seeing 1 page read here, 3 pages read there, another 10 pages read elsewhere. That made no sense given my previous experience with FB ads, and I turned them off. To me now, those 1 page reads really look like a Page Flip problem. 

But recent posts on this thread have gotten me thinking again. If the Amazon KENP algorithm has been refined in such a way that it punishes skimming, the fact that I have been hit so hard just might have to do with the nature of the books that used to provide me with the most page reads. (After the dismissive attitude in the "support" emails, I wrote a nasty letter and managed to get the rest of my books pulled from Select.) 

Most of my pages read came from 2 Big Fat Fantasies with about 900 KENP pages each. Both books have a lot of history, a lot of sex and romance, and a lot of battle scenes, straddling multiple genres. Maybe:

- the romance readers skip the history and battle scenes
- the historical fiction readers skip the sex and romance
- the Arthurian fiction fans who prefer chivalry to high mud fantasy skim through lots of both
- the traditional fantasy readers skim a lot because there isn't enough magic

What if some new skimming algorithm is punishing authors with books that readers tend to get through too fast? Either romance readers who devour books, or books like my Pendragon Chronicles, that draw a lot of different readers who are looking for different things and skip the stuff they don't want? 

Just a thought to toss into the theory pool.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

Just from what I've read on other boards I'm 100% convinced Amazon did change something. I don't think this is mass hysteria. It seems to have  hit certain genres harder than others. My guess is that this is the perfect storm combo of scammers being heavily concentrated in romance and erotica. We know their bots borrow legitimate books in order to mask their "mass automated" promotion of their freebies.  So romance writers are getting hit the hardest. It's obvioiusly not all romance writers as some are reporting better numbers than ever. Whatever the combination of factors is Amazon is never going to tell us. So people are going to panic, especially when %50 or more of their page read income vanishes over night. Or when the rank on their permafrees plummet after spending $$$ on a promotion. 

To those affected it''s a big deal.  Luckily I took a break this year from writing romance and I'm glad I did. I can't imagine going through this right now.


----------



## phoenixwaller

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I watch horror movies whether they're good or bad, though.


Any room in there for anime horror? Cause if so, Corpse Party. It's technically 3 half hour episodes of an OVA series, but just right for movie length. It's gory and creepy.

Live action but subtitled... Parasite Eve. It's old but good.


----------



## Nothing To See

NeedWant said:


> At least she put her name to her data, even though it's not what you wanted to hear. Where are these top 20 authors that are seeing 90% page cuts? Have they come forward publicly?


I'm seeing decreases of 30%. Like most of my colleagues, I don't come to kboards regularly, because it's public. I'm only here because I think (hope) that Amazon keeps tabs on this board. Most of us aren't commenting publicly - at least under our pen names - for obvious reasons. I also have no intention of posting my numbers or data because it would be too easy to identify me. I can think offhand of maybe ten other top 20 romance authors I've spoken with personally who've seen similar issues. None of us are going to come to kboards and out ourselves.

Sept is not usually a down month for me - exactly the opposite. Kids go back to school, moms (my primary audience) have more time to read.


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass

tresero said:


> Steady? Wouldn't you expect your sales to grow month over month? That's how a business works.
> 
> The big question is how do you know you aren't affected? Steady? That's not really a test. I've posted my numbers multiple times, and I get about the same page reads as you, maybe higher until Sept. I attributed Sept to a month with no releases (well, a release in Kindle Worlds, but that doesn't show on KDP, another screwy disconnect but I digress).
> 
> Oct, had a new release and going solely by historical numbers, the release is 90% down. Other releases with around the same KENPC average 200 pages or so per sale. This release is averaging 45 and it's been 12 days now. Sure it could be a dog, but... As I also posted, I did an anonymous survey of my users and out of 700 responses so far since yesterday, 70 have confirmed reading the entire story. KDP shows 5291 pages read. The book is 225 KENPC, so not even counting the dozens that haven't said they read the whole thing, that should be 15750 pages read. That's conservative, only readers who answered the survey and said they finished it. So, I'm down at least 66% of page reads more like 90% when reality takes over. I'm guessing 66% of my readers are bots, that answer surveys?
> 
> Yes, there is a problem, If you aren't affected, I'm happy for you, but I still question how you know you aren't affected.


I can well imagine your frustration. But, all I can do is layout what I see with my own numbers. A book, over a year old, with no advertising and no new release in that genre for the last 4 months. Performed the same in sept as it did in Aug. To me, that is steady. Should the book have performed better? I don't think so. I was happy that it was the same.

Another book, different genre, Second in the series, Released in Sept performed the same as the first, released in August. Again, to me = steady.

As I said, all I can do is report what I see with my numbers. That does not mean I am questioning what you see with yours.


----------



## NotAPenguin

We have established I think (?) that books published after September 5th have been the most likely to be effected. But not all! We have also established that. Not all books are discernibly effected.

The more I hear from people, the more I'm starting to believe that it's hitting romance hardest because of the speed with which those readers devour the books.

Or maybe those books are being skimmed for the naughty bits and that's the trigger. If so, that's a bummer on a bunch of levels. Because that would mean people are skipping big parts of the books!


----------



## tresero

AliceW said:


> Book sales don't have positive inertia. You cannot do nothing and expect growth every month. As Amanda said, it takes a regular release schedule and promotion to keep sales ticking along and growing.
> 
> I'm a prawn, I haven't noticed any change. I'm in groups with a range of authors from bestsellers to newbies and there might be one or two seeing a downturn. That's it. Apart from the vocal minority in this thread, I'm not seeing the *massive* and *widespread* catastrophic drop some are claiming. In the other groups I'm in, the majority aren't affected or seeing anything funky other than the regular fluctuations that are expected without promo or a new release. But since people who aren't affected are expected to shut up and keep quiet, all you are going to hear is those who have bought the Amazon conspiracy theory. I think that's called confirmation bias...


Did you even read my post? What part of new release didn't you understand? I'm no small fry either, not huge, but when you go from 1 million page reads a month to 500k in a month, and then you put out a new release to your bigger list, and you tank even more... Questions need to be asked.

I guess you didn't read the part either where I surveyed my readers and can prove KDP is blocking something. Either that or 2/3 of the respondents are liars?

I know some authors think they aren't affected either, at least not as much, but again, how do you know you aren't affected? What if you're page reads should be 10% higher or 20%, you can't know that.


----------



## AllyWho

tresero said:


> I know some authors think they aren't affected either, at least not as much, but again, how do you know you aren't affected? What if you're page reads should be 10% higher or 20%, you can't know that.


Did you read my post? I said yes there seems to be an issue, but people are rolling all sorts of problems into one massive grievance against Amazon. People are hypothesising and guessing, with very little hard data and it's all Chinese whispers and conspiracy theories. For every person in this thread saying there is a problem, I've probably seen 10 people in other forums saying there is no issue. My ranks/sales/reads are consistent with what I expect. I'm not rushing off to sign up for a class action lawsuit which frankly, would get laughed out of court.

If you have PROOF that you are missing pages read, then send it to Amazon. If you can PROVE that you had x readers read y pages (such as screen shots and verifiable data) and they're not showing on your KDP dashboard, send that to Amazon. You can't just extrapolate what you *think* you should have in reads because a few readers said they use page flip.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Bill Hiatt said:


> We don't actually know for sure how much the average KDP author is being affected.


Actually, we do. We've had the overall numbers for September, and someone upthread calculated that pages read were down 8.5%. That right there is the average. So the 90% drop people are a very small minority, and most people are seeing either a small drop or none at all.

If you want more anecdotal evidence of this, I'm in a private group of 35 or so authors, various genres, ranging from prawns to big hitters (defined as a new release automatically hitting a 3-figure rank). Of those, only 1 has reported a sudden drop of 40-45%in pages read (she's a big hitter, writing mystery). She's had a Bookbub since then, which has mitigated the effect. A few others have reported slight downturns, but without being able to say definitively whether it's the algos or just organic changes. Most haven't noticed anything untoward. I had two new releases in September, but revenue is only slightly up on August. Is that because of the Amazon changes, or did I just put out a couple of duds? Can't say for sure.

If this is (at last) a determined effort by Amazon to weed out the scammers, I for one am pleased about that. Less pleased (obviously) that it's hit some people so devastatingly hard. However, if Amazon really is discounting pages read for possible fraudulent activity, this is a major change. Up to now, they've accepted all recorded sales, borrows and pages read, and only made adjustments to how they apply those numbers to rank, or how much they pay us. To decide (for whatever reason) that a number of recorded pages read will be ignored and not paid for - that's a huge difference in attitude. But it does seem to be the new normal, so I guess we just have to live with it.

One other point related to page flip: seeing just 1 page read in the reports is by no means something new, or just related to page flip. I have instances of a single page read dating back to the first few days of KU2. I always assumed it was just someone opening the book to check it downloaded or some such, and then reading it later. Page flip may have increased the incidence of single page reads, but it's not the sole cause.


----------



## 13893

If Amazon has assumed a "we don't pay for pages skipped" in the KU system, that's not actually fair. A novel is a novel is a novel, and the "good parts" exist in relationship to the "mundane parts" or "functional parts," for lack of better terms. The good parts have no meaning without the world they live in, and to write a coherent story the author has to take the time to write them all. 

The attitude reminds me of when I was a medical transcriptionist and we were paid by the character typed. Some clients didn't want to pay for the "spaces" between words and sentences. My response was always, "Fine. I'll take them out then." 

Suddenly the value of the spaces became apparent. 

This is just a philosophical post. But if in the pursuit of cracking down on the fraudsters - a noble goal - Amazon decides not to paid for the "skipped" pages read, I don't see how authors can remain in KU. The business model just fails, unless I'm missing something.


----------



## ......~......

Nothing To See said:


> I'm seeing decreases of 30%. Like most of my colleagues, I don't come to kboards regularly, because it's public. I'm only here because I think (hope) that Amazon keeps tabs on this board. Most of us aren't commenting publicly - at least under our pen names - for obvious reasons. *I also have no intention of posting my numbers or data because it would be too easy to identify me.* I can think offhand of maybe ten other top 20 romance authors I've spoken with personally who've seen similar issues. None of us are going to come to kboards and out ourselves.


And that's really the problem right there. The authors affected don't have to come here and out themselves but have they publicly talked about this anywhere else? If they don't, then why should anyone take this seriously? A bunch of anonymous posters talking about people they know doesn't really illuminate this issue in any significant way. We need data, rankings, charts and all that good stuff if people really want to get to the bottom of this.

I don't doubt some authors are affected but I'm not really sure how prevalent this is. The anonymous posters in this thread say they and most authors they know are affected. An author who is a longtime poster and whose author name is public says she wasn't affected and that most of the authors she knows weren't either. Who do we take seriously? Both might be right, but if the anonymous posters remain anonymous, there's nothing we can really look at to see if they know what they're talking about.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

LKRigel said:


> If Amazon has assumed a "we don't pay for pages skipped" in the KU system, that's not actually fair. A novel is a novel is a novel, and the "good parts" exist in relationship to the "mundane parts" or "functional parts," for lack of better terms. The good parts have no meaning without the world they live in, and to write a coherent story the author has to take the time to write them all.
> 
> The attitude reminds me of when I was a medical transcriptionist and we were paid by the character typed. Some clients didn't want to pay for the "spaces" between words and sentences. My response was always, "Fine. I'll take them out then."
> 
> Suddenly the value of the spaces became apparent.
> 
> This is just a philosophical post. But if in the pursuit of cracking down on the fraudsters - a noble goal - Amazon decides not to paid for the "skipped" pages read, I don't see how authors can remain in KU. The business model just fails, unless I'm missing something.


Since that is how we were told the program worked from the beginning, I don't see that. We were told only pages read would be counted. Instead it was furthest page read and if you jump to the back of the book for some reason you got a full read regardless.


----------



## LadyG

NotAPenguin said:


> If you aren't affected, I'm a little curious why you are even concerning ourself with this thread?


Because she is one of the kindest, most helpful authors here at KBoards, and she's being incredibly generous with her time. She's pretty well-respected around here for a reason, and it might be beneficial to you to actually *read *some of her replies instead of just dismissing her.

Personally, I'm just a prawny little nobody whose sales bottomed out in September, too. But since I haven't released anything new since May and my last round of promotions was in June, that could very well be my own fault. I'm following this thread because I just don't know if I've been affected or not; I went nine days with zero page reads, which is unusual for me but alas, not unheard of. Since I generally bring home less than $100/month from my books, a bad month really hurts my pride a lot more than it hurts my wallet.


----------



## tresero

AliceW said:


> Did you read my post? I said yes there seems to be an issue, but people are rolling all sorts of problems into one massive grievance against Amazon. People are hypothesising and guessing, with very little hard data and it's all Chinese whispers and conspiracy theories. For every person in this thread saying there is a problem, I've probably seen 10 people in other forums saying there is no issue. My ranks/sales/reads are consistent with what I expect. I'm not rushing off to sign up for a class action lawsuit which frankly, would get laughed out of court.
> 
> If you have PROOF that you are missing pages read, then send it to Amazon. If you can PROVE that you had x readers read y pages (such as screen shots and verifiable data) and they're not showing on your KDP dashboard, send that to Amazon. You can't just extrapolate what you *think* you should have in reads because a few readers said they use page flip.


I did send it to Amazon. But, I may as well send it to the moon. They will eventually get back to me with a form letter, again. I did get a call from Customer Relations today about a different issue and I brought it up. Standard line, we find no problems with our filtering and audited September, and we will take your suggestions into account. The book wasn't released until Oct, so that's how well they listen. Notice the keyword, filter.

And it has nothing to do with page-flip, I never said it did. The readers reported, on an anonymous survey, reading the complete book. Whether they were in page-flip or not wasn't the question I asked, it was how far have you read if you borrowed in KU. Either KDP is many, many days behind in reporting, 65%+ of my respondents are lying, or Amazon is filtering.

And I'm in other forums as well,and yes, many people are seeing this, some aren't. Most are averaging about 20 - 30% hits. You will notice also, that I didn't say all my sales were down 90%, I said my new release is down 90% over the last 9 releases historical data. I release about 1x a month, it's fairly easy to track this stuff. Anyway, people want stats, I give them and you tell me I'm extrapolating data. I've had more than 700 readers respond to the survey, I hardly call that a few. Statistics and confidence levels, they run presidential polls with less sample size.

And when did I ever in this entire thread mention class action?

This is the last time I will post data, obviously it doesn't matter to those who "know" that this is just a small glitch affecting only a few people.


----------



## ......~......

LKRigel said:


> If Amazon has assumed a "we don't pay for pages skipped" in the KU system, that's not actually fair.


It's actually completely fair. Why should Amazon pay you for the pages your readers skip? I remeber when KU1 was a thing and novelists were up in arms about the 10% thing and how shortform writers (*cough*erotica*cough*) were getting paid as much as them. Now we have pages read and if you can't keep your readers' attention through the whole book, why should you get paid for the whole thing?


----------



## 13893

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Since that is how we were told the program worked from the beginning, I don't see that. We were told only pages read would be counted. Instead it was furthest page read and if you jump to the back of the book for some reason you got a full read regardless.


I guess technically that's right. I assumed it meant as far as the furthest page read. But if it really means only for the cherry-picked pages read, then I stand by my comment. I don't see how authors can afford to stay in a program like that.

Sadly, the scammers ruin it for the rest of us.


----------



## Cherise

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I'm going to put "that witch book author" on my business cards.


*Can't stop laughing!*


----------



## 13893

NeedWant said:


> It's actually completely fair. Why should Amazon pay you for the pages your readers skip? I remeber when KU1 was a thing and novelists were up in arms about the 10% thing and how shortform writers (*cough*erotica*cough*) were getting paid as much as them. Now we have pages read and if you can't keep your readers' attention through the whole book, why should you get paid for the whole thing?


I shouldn't have used the word "fair." Fairness has nothing to do with it. I really mean workable or affordable.


----------



## Anarchist

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think I'm going for 28 Days Later and 28 Weeks Later once I finish with the Friday the 13th collection before sliding over to some zombie fun.


In the spirit of forum harmony, if there's one thing we can all agree on, surely it's that _28 Days Later_ is awesome.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

LKRigel said:


> I guess technically that's right. I assumed it meant as far as the furthest page read. But if it really means only for the cherry-picked pages read, then I stand by my comment. I don't see how authors can afford to stay in a program like that.
> 
> Sadly, the scammers ruin it for the rest of us.


I think it's probably an issue if your reading base is made up of skimmers. Say a lot of readers only read certain books for the naughty bits, well, that's going to hurt a lot of romance authors. If your readers are made up of people who read cover to cover, though, it's probably a good thing. This could be another one of those "good for some, not good for other" things. It's something to watch and see how it shakes out.


----------



## 13893

Anarchist said:


> In the spirit of forum harmony, if there's one thing we can all agree on, surely it's that _28 Days Later_ is awesome.


yep


----------



## NotAPenguin

I think we all just want to understand how deep the problem is, and if it's something we or Zon can remedy. Skimming? By genre? Overblown KENCP?

I'm so confused by people who are insisting there is no problem. That's obviously not the case. Zon rolled out a bunch of new things in Glitchtember and its impacting reads - but not unilaterally. Sidebar: It feels like it's getting a tad aggressive (or defensive?) in here and people are looking for things to quibble about.  Completely unnecessary and off-topic.

Where dem reads at?


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## SomeoneElse

PaulineMRoss said:


> Actually, we do. We've had the overall numbers for September, and someone upthread calculated that pages read were down 8.5%. That right there is the average. So the 90% drop people are a very small minority, and most people are seeing either a small drop or none at all.


Remember that Sept has one day fewer than August, so we should have expected an approx. 3% drop in page reads anyway. But it all gets more complicated if you factor in any sort of seasonality/peak reading days etc.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

NotAPenguin said:


> I'm so confused by people who are insisting there is no problem.


I don't recall anyone saying that, only that they personally hadn't encountered a problem, or others they'd spoken to. It's obviously a real problem, but not a universal issue.


----------



## 555aaa

The whole page read thing was dumb to start with and they should can it, and when this switch happened from "KU1" a lot of these problems were foreseen.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I just heard from an RWA chapter member that RWA has spoken to Amazon and confirmed there is a systemic issue with page reads.

They didn't say what the systemic issue is exactly, but it's overwhelmingly likely that it has nothing to do with readers skipping parts of books.

I say that because Amazon can't measure skimming or skipping on their end, that's not how the Kindles work. It's technically impossible.

I don't have a timetable for it being fixed, but RWA was advised to check back in a week.


----------



## 77820

Anarchist said:


> In the spirit of forum harmony, if there's one thing we can all agree on, surely it's that _28 Days Later_ is awesome.


I totally agree.


----------



## 9 Diamonds

Today my KENP shot up, after about ten days in the doldrums, by 6,350%.


----------



## eroticatorium

9 Diamonds said:


> Today my KENP shot up, after about ten days in the doldrums, by 6,350%.


Mine wasn't that much, but still a big increase for today.


----------



## jloome

WasAnn said:


> I guess that scotches the presumption that it's just certain writers who can't keep a reader's attention having problems. That's good to know.
> 
> On the upside, I tinkered with things and mine went back to normal. I don't write romance so mine wasn't as seriously impacted.


I got a call from Kindle executive customer relations today; a repeat of the same messaging. I said it's obvious this is an issue involved in algorithm changes and got a rather nice and humble "we can't really say anymore". I reiterated the concerns on here and the human impact, and said all most people would like is proper information to make decisions.

Once again today, income is up having gotten rid of my permafree. Five straight days of gains; it's definitely an anti-fraud algorithm.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

RWA should check back in about a week? Fingers crossed, candles lit because I have a Freebooksy on Thursday.


----------



## Indiecognito

9 Diamonds said:


> Today my KENP shot up, after about ten days in the doldrums, by 6,350%.


I had a big fat surge today, too.


----------



## CassieL

I also had a huge page reads surge today, but it was making up for low page reads for the last five or six days.  I recently put two books back into KU (about the beginning of the month) and they were steadily in a certain range until the last five days.  That surge puts the average across those days back into that range.


----------



## David VanDyke

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Everything I read opens at the first chapter or prologue I believe. That's what I've noticed, anyway. I can page back to see the title page and other front matter but the bulk of the books I open on my Kindle -- including trades -- open at chapter one or the prologue.


Try creating a new TOC entry at the very start with an anchor to the beginning of the book. I believe the reader searches for the first TOC entry and takes you there. I call it "Book Cover" and quite often it seems to work so the book opens to the book cover. Sometimes it doesn, but al least it opens to page 2 most of the time. I can't seem to do anything that absolutely guarantees it will.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

I'm currently working on a non-fiction that's part fiction and I need it to open at the introduction. There will also be a foreward, but it absolutely has to open at the beginning. Hope I can fix it so that works.


----------



## David VanDyke

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I'm currently working on a non-fiction that's part fiction and I need it to open at the introduction. There will also be a foreward, but it absolutely has to open at the beginning. Hope I can fix it so that works.


Hopefully there will be a foreword, not a forward. 

If you want it to open at the introduction, make that your first anchored TOC entry. Check it out in the Kindle previewer, and tweak as needed.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

David VanDyke said:


> Hopefully there will be a foreword, not a forward.
> 
> If you want it to open at the foreword, make that your first anchored TOC entry. Check it out in the Kindle previewer, and tweak as needed.


I knew it was wrong when I typed it. Sometimes, the elderly brain doesn't work.


----------



## Abalone

Indiecognito said:


> I had a big fat surge today, too.


As did I. I refreshed my page about 20 times thinking it was a fluke. *shrug*


----------



## Anna Drake

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I just heard from an RWA chapter member that RWA has spoken to Amazon and confirmed there is a systemic issue with page reads.
> 
> They didn't say what the systemic issue is exactly, but it's overwhelmingly likely that it has nothing to do with readers skipping parts of books.
> 
> I say that because Amazon can't measure skimming or skipping on their end, that's not how the Kindles work. It's technically impossible.
> 
> I don't have a timetable for it being fixed, but RWA was advised to check back in a week.


Wow, Amazon has suggested there is a problem? That's excellent news to me. So far, all I'd read were statements saying Amazon thought things were okey dokey. I found that attitude alarming. You can't fix something you don't believe is broken.

I'm a highly prawny prawn. Still, things don't look normal to me. My page reads are down considerably, and I've done nothing different. Oddly, I've had daily hits at my website. That doesn't happen for me when people aren't reading. Plus, I've had a like or two on my Facebook page. Again that doesn't happen without an audience. Somehow, I can't believe all of my reads are being counted.

For those whose reads are as they should be, congratulations. I'm happy for you. For the rest of us, there's chocolate, or gin, or pizza, or possibly other outlets.


----------



## phoenixwaller

David VanDyke said:


> If you want it to open at the introduction, make that your first anchored TOC entry. Check it out in the Kindle previewer, and tweak as needed.


just a note here, that the previewer has been off on the last couple pieces I've put up. I put my "start" anchor at the header on the first page, and it's repeatedly showing me the disclaimer portion of my copyright page for most devices instead.

My books DO open in the right place when I check them on actual devices, but not on the previewer.

Your mileage may vary.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I just heard from an RWA chapter member that RWA has spoken to Amazon and confirmed there is a systemic issue with page reads. {...} I don't have a timetable for it being fixed, but RWA was advised to check back in a week.


This is possibly the first confirmation that there is an actual error, rather than just a change in the algos that affects different authors to a greater or lesser degree. And also that they plan to fix it, which is great news for those seeing devastating drops in pages read. Fingers crossed for everyone affected.


----------



## dragontucker

I had a big surge in KU page reads when midnight just hit. But....it might be from other factors. BTW.....how is permafree a bad thing now?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

What is your computer's system time set to? If it doesn't match theirs the graph does strange things at your local midnight.


----------



## jason2505

PaulineMRoss said:


> This is possibly the first confirmation that there is an actual error, rather than just a change in the algos that affects different authors to a greater or lesser degree. And also that they plan to fix it, which is great news for those seeing devastating drops in pages read. Fingers crossed for everyone affected.


Sorry for being dumb... what stands RWA for?


----------



## PearlEarringLady

jason2505 said:


> Sorry for being dumb... what stands RWA for?


Romance Writers of America - a very powerful organisation (with enough clout to get Amazon's attention, apparently, for which we can only be grateful).


----------



## jason2505

PaulineMRoss said:


> Romance Writers of America - a very powerful organisation (with enough clout to get Amazon's attention, apparently, for which we can only be grateful).


Thanks


----------



## AaronShep

phoenixwaller said:


> My books DO open in the right place when I check them on actual devices, but not on the previewer.


The Start position is adjusted by Kindle tech staff AFTER you upload and proof your book. There's no way you can guard against them changing it in a flowing ebook. For that reason, I've taken to putting notices in likely places saying this is NOT the start of the book, please page backward if it opens here.


----------



## phoenixwaller

AaronShep said:


> The Start position is adjusted by Kindle tech staff AFTER you upload and proof your book. There's no way you can guard against them changing it in a flowing ebook. For that reason, I've taken to putting notices in likely places saying this is NOT the start of the book, please page backward if it opens here.


Eh, well that's interesting. Not that it really matters much for what I've seen, cause whatever they do agrees with what I do. I use the anchor text to signal the start of content and I've never had it appear elsewhere.

Even if the KDP techs mess with it I'll keep putting in my anchors. Last I uploaded on Smashwords the meatgrinder still liked them, and if I decide to upload to Google Play again I think I need them too. I'll just consider it good practice to keep building my internal anchors and bookmarks like I always have.


----------



## A.R. Williams

AliceW said:


> If you have PROOF that you are missing pages read, then send it to Amazon. If you can PROVE that you had x readers read y pages (such as screen shots and verifiable data) and they're not showing on your KDP dashboard, send that to Amazon. You can't just extrapolate what you *think* you should have in reads because a few readers said they use page flip.


Ironically enough, it's the authors who have submitted historical data, with the logical conclusion that X amount of borrows would not suddenly drop to Y amount of reads that helped convince Amazon that there was a problem.

Otherwise, Amazon would still be saying: "These aren't the droids you're looking for--move along."

And in regards to your comment about proof, doesn't it bother you in the slightest, that you're dealing with a system in which no hard proof can be obtained? A system of 0's and 1's where you have absolutely no ability to double check the veracity of what you're being told?


----------



## A.R. Williams

NeedWant said:


> It's actually completely fair. Why should Amazon pay you for the pages your readers skip? I remeber when KU1 was a thing and novelists were up in arms about the 10% thing and how shortform writers (*cough*erotica*cough*) were getting paid as much as them. Now we have pages read and if you can't keep your readers' attention through the whole book, why should you get paid for the whole thing?


Amazon should pay you for the pages readers skip because the system doesn't work like they said it does. If someone enjoys a book, despite the manner in which they choose to read it--authors should be paid.

If a reader enjoys reading books backwards--the author should be paid.

If readers enjoy reading only the even chapters--the author should be paid.

If a reader only wants to enjoy the "happy endings"--the author should be paid.

Amazon designed a system that has no ability to record the actual pages read. Why should they then be able to complain or judge how an actual (non-scam) reader takes pleasure in reading the book they borrowed.

If someone buys a novel, they pay for the whole thing. If someone goes to a movie and arrives late, or leaves early, or goes to the bathroom in the middle of it--they pay for the whole thing. If someone rents a movie and don't watch it, they pay for the whole thing.

So, if an actual (non-scam) reader enjoys reading a book a certain way, and by reading it that way, they still want to read more work from an author because they enjoyed the work--then Amazon should pay for that reader's enjoyment.

Personally, I think they've made the system too complex, and based it on a payment method they have no actual ability to record in the manner that they said they would record it.


----------



## ......~......

A.R. Williams said:


> Amazon should pay you for the pages readers skip because the system doesn't work like they said it does. If someone enjoys a book, despite the manner in which they choose to read it--authors should be paid.
> 
> If a reader enjoys reading books backwards--the author should be paid.
> 
> If readers enjoy reading only the even chapters--the author should be paid.
> 
> If a reader only wants to enjoy the "happy endings"--the author should be paid.


That's what sales are for, not borrows. Before readers had to reach 10% before we got paid, now we're supposedly paid by the page. If Amazon has figured out how to actually do that or is starting to, then no, authors shouldn't be paid for the whole book if a reader is skipping and skimming their way through. That defeats the whole purpose of being paid by the page.

Many novelists cheered when the pages read system was announced. Now that Amazon is actually figuring out how to count the pages read, some might not be so enthusiastic. If it leads to novels with less filler I'm all for it, though.



> Personally, I think they've made the system too complex, and based it on a payment method they have no actual ability to record in the manner that they said they would record it.


I can agree with that. The whole pages read system is a mess. I long for the days of KU1.


----------



## phoenixwaller

NeedWant said:


> I can agree with that. The whole pages read system is a mess. I long for the days of KU1.


Or the pre-KU days when we got showed KOLL borrows. I swear I preferred borrows to sales back then cause I was priced in such a way that I made more on borrows than sales.

Course that might have also been because the market was smaller in 2012


----------



## ......~......

phoenixwaller said:


> Or the pre-KU days when we got showed KOLL borrows. I swear I preferred borrows to sales back then cause I was priced in such a way that I made more on borrows than sales.
> 
> Course that might have also been because the market was smaller in 2012


Aren't KOLL borrows from Prime customers and they only get one borrow per month? I started publishing in 2013 so can't really remember anything about KOLL.

For a second there I thought you were from the future.


----------



## phoenixwaller

NeedWant said:


> Aren't KOLL borrows from Prime customers and they only get one borrow per month? I started publishing in 2013 so can't really remember anything about KOLL.
> 
> For a second there I thought you were from the future.


YEP  Loved those once a month prime borrows from back in the day. They paid GOOD!

And yea, typo'd on the year. It's almost 4 am and I've been trying to get a good render on a cover image for hours, brain is done and wants me to go read before bed.


----------



## SomeoneElse

A.R. Williams said:


> Amazon should pay you for the pages readers skip because the system doesn't work like they said it does. If someone enjoys a book, despite the manner in which they choose to read it--authors should be paid.


Taken to the logical extreme, paying for pages skipped means paying for a full read when someone only reads the last page - which really shouldn't happen (see ku scams). It doesn't make sense to pay out for pages the reader never laid an eye on.


----------



## A.R. Williams

LSMay said:


> Taken to the logical extreme, paying for pages skipped means paying for a full read when someone only reads the last page - which really shouldn't happen (see ku scams). It doesn't make sense to pay out for pages the reader never laid an eye on.


I can agree with that. But how confident are you that they'll be able to do that?

-do they have a way of measuring how fast a page is read?

Some people skim, or just read faster, than others who may want to savor each word.

-what happens when someone skips ahead, then goes back?

they don't want people getting paid twice per page, but it will only record a page once. What happens with people who jump back and forth to either see how far, or to see what happens, or to see what POV character starts the next chapter

So they need a system that records how fast a page is read, can keep up with people who jump back and forth (while still recording the length of time to read a page), and be able to keep track of all that information until the next time they connect to the internet.

That's a lot of difficult programming.


----------



## Lady Vine

LSMay said:


> Taken to the logical extreme, paying for pages skipped means paying for a full read when someone only reads the last page - which really shouldn't happen (see ku scams). It doesn't make sense to pay out for pages the reader never laid an eye on.


And like someone said upthread, you can't have the end without the beginning and the middle. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

But at the end of the day, those are the terms authors agreed to by enrolling their books. If you do feel cheated, leave the program. Sales are straightforward and not subject to Amazon's whims.


----------



## KelliWolfe

But... But... But... I thought this was just seasonal variations. Or reader volatility. Or swamp gas. Or ball lightning. Just normal fluctuations in the number of pages being read from month to month. Amazon flatly stated time after time after time to every single inquiry that they had looked into the matter and there were *no* page read discrepancies. So this can't be right. RWA is making this up.


----------



## Colin

> RWA is making this up


Relax. Fiction writers would never countenance making things up!


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

KelliWolfe said:


> But... But... But... I thought this was just seasonal variations. Or reader volatility. Or swamp gas. Or ball lightning. Just normal fluctuations in the number of pages being read from month to month. Amazon flatly stated time after time after time to every single inquiry that they had looked into the matter and there were *no* page read discrepancies. So this can't be right. RWA is making this up.


All I have to say is this better have a HEA, or at least a HFN.


----------



## Amberlyn Holland

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I just heard from an RWA chapter member that RWA has spoken to Amazon and confirmed there is a systemic issue with page reads.
> 
> They didn't say what the systemic issue is exactly, but it's overwhelmingly likely that it has nothing to do with readers skipping parts of books.
> 
> I say that because Amazon can't measure skimming or skipping on their end, that's not how the Kindles work. It's technically impossible.
> 
> I don't have a timetable for it being fixed, but RWA was advised to check back in a week.


Just curious if you could point me to more information about this? I'm a member of RWA and they are usually really good about informing members when they see something hinky by posting to their news section and/or sending out an email. But I can't find it on the website (which is sometimes hard to navigate).


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

RWA leadership is directly involved and I got the info from someone involved in RWA chapter leadership.


----------



## Used To Be BH

LKRigel said:


> Sadly, the scammers ruin it for the rest of us.


I'm sure we can all agree on that! I don't think Amazon is trying to make our lives miserable. It is responding to a real problem, about which many of us have also complained. Unfortunately, the response seems to have had unintended consequences.

Some of the other posts seem to suggest that Amazon is still looking at the problem. The range of different responses suggests the problem is probably extremely complex (and more than one problem). Outside this thread, some people are reporting having their best sales and borrows ever. Others aren't affected or are seeing only small downturns. Others are massively affected. The complexity unfortunately makes the issue harder to solve, but I will try to remain optimistic if Amazon is still trying to do something with it.


----------



## LadyG

Amberlyn Holland said:


> Just curious if you could point me to more information about this? I'm a member of RWA and they are usually really good about informing members when they see something hinky by posting to their news section and/or sending out an email. But I can't find it on the website (which is sometimes hard to navigate).


I was just thinking the same thing.



Acrocanthosaurus said:


> RWA leadership is directly involved and I got the info from someone involved in RWA chapter leadership.


Which chapter? I've heard nothing from the leadership of my RWA chapter.


----------



## Nothing To See

KelliWolfe said:


> But... But... But... I thought this was just seasonal variations. Or reader volatility. Or swamp gas. Or ball lightning. Just normal fluctuations in the number of pages being read from month to month. Amazon flatly stated time after time after time to every single inquiry that they had looked into the matter and there were *no* page read discrepancies. So this can't be right. RWA is making this up.


Totally. Amazon literally announced they filter page reads and PageFlip doesn't count reads but this is clearly hysterical women complaining about people flipping through their poorly written sex books. 

ETA - Obviously, people who don't want to post their pen names, screenshots of their dashboards, incomes, and names of all their author friends are misinformed about everything and have no legitimate concerns about page read issues. If they were actually successful, they'd out themselves and everyone they know just to satisfy the curiosity of people on a public forum.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

LadyG said:


> I was just thinking the same thing.
> 
> Which chapter? I've heard nothing from the leadership of my RWA chapter.


I'm not going to risk directly naming this person. I know from experience that Amazon employees hold grudges and I'm not going to expose my friend for the same reason I'm not offering any specific details about myself on a public board.

All RWA did was confirm what we knew. The front line customer support reps aren't going to offer any confirmation of anything ever beyond "looking into it"


----------



## NotAPenguin

Nothing To See said:


> Totally. Amazon literally announced they filter page reads and PageFlip doesn't count reads but this is clearly hysterical women complaining about people flipping through their poorly written sex books.
> 
> ETA - Obviously, people who don't want to post their pen names, screenshots of their dashboards, incomes, and names of all their author friends are misinformed about everything and have no legitimate concerns about page read issues. If they were actually successful, they'd out themselves and everyone they know just to satisfy the curiosity of people on a public forum.


Lol exactly! Thank you whoever posted the RWA info. Maybe the sky isn't falling!

I think my blood pressure just normalized. I'm hearing about people seeing spikes on other boards as well but it's random who and when. Could they really be fixing this one account at a time?

That seems 'nanas.


----------



## Sarah Shaw

Nothing To See said:


> Totally. Amazon literally announced they filter page reads and PageFlip doesn't count reads but this is clearly hysterical women complaining about people flipping through their poorly written sex books.
> 
> ETA - Obviously, people who don't want to post their pen names, screenshots of their dashboards, incomes, and names of all their author friends are misinformed about everything and have no legitimate concerns about page read issues. If they were actually successful, they'd out themselves and everyone they know just to satisfy the curiosity of people on a public forum.


I haven't heard anybody here remotely claiming that people who've experienced page dips are making things up. I _have_ heard people who are not experiencing page dips reporting their experience. Which is exactly what we want. Maybe people could continue to report their own experience without sniping at others whose experience is different? Thanks. That'd be nice.


----------



## katrina46

Bill Hiatt said:


> I'm sure we can all agree on that! I don't think Amazon is trying to make our lives miserable. It is responding to a real problem, about which many of us have also complained. Unfortunately, the response seems to have had unintended consequences.
> 
> Some of the other posts seem to suggest that Amazon is still looking at the problem. The range of different responses suggests the problem is probably extremely complex (and more than one problem). Outside this thread, some people are reporting having their best sales and borrows ever. Others aren't affected or are seeing only small downturns. Others are massively affected. The complexity unfortunately makes the issue harder to solve, but I will try to remain optimistic if Amazon is still trying to do something with it.


Unintended consequences is usually what happens when Amazon "fixes" something, like the TOC issue that dinged a lot of legit authors.


----------



## SidK

Alright, I am going to volunteer my chart for KENPC reads over the last 90 days.








Sept 22, 2016 was the first day of 0 KENPC for me in months and all those flatlined blue circles near '0' are actually almost all 0s. There have been a few reads in between them but they were much less than from the earlier period. Almost all the page reads are from my two space opera books as I get only intermittent reads from the remaining two war-fiction novels I have in KU.

I am a new author so I don't know whether this is the Page Reads problem or this is the normal decline. But the *sudden drop* from 22nd Sept. makes me suspicious.

Experienced authors, let me know what you think.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Sarah Shaw said:


> I haven't heard anybody here remotely claiming that people who've experienced page dips are making things up. I _have_ heard people who are not experiencing page dips reporting their experience. Which is exactly what we want. Maybe people could continue to report their own experience without sniping at others whose experience is different? Thanks. That'd be nice.


Really? Because all through the last 20 pages there have been any number of people who said they didn't believe anything at all out of the ordinary was happening even when members who normally get a million page reads a month were reporting drops of 50% or more, and accused the people insisting that there really was a problem of overreaction and even hysteria. To the point where some members were demanding the pen names/earnings/page read data of people _posting on private forums_ to back up the assertions being made that this was widespread and not just related to a handful of prawny "Chicken Littles" on kboards who never got more than 50 page reads a day anyway.

It's not like this is exactly the first time that Amazon has screwed the pooch, either, but there are some members here who would defend Amazon to their last breath if Jeff Bezos streamed videos of himself dismembering live kittens while the board of directors applauded.


----------



## katrina46

Lady Vine said:


> And like someone said upthread, you can't have the end without the beginning and the middle. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.
> 
> But at the end of the day, those are the terms authors agreed to by enrolling their books. If you do feel cheated, leave the program. Sales are straightforward and not subject to Amazon's whims.


Well, to be fair to those who stay and yet still complain, sales are somewhat subject to Amazon's whims. When they give visibility to someone just because they're in KU they have to take that visibility away from someone else who isn't in the program. I've heard people say that isn't true, but I don't see how it can't be. Not everyone can have visibility or no one would have it. For someone to get it, someone else has to lose it.


----------



## RedAlert

NeedWant said:


> That's what sales are for, not borrows. Before readers had to reach 10% before we got paid, now we're supposedly paid by the page. If Amazon has figured out how to actually do that or is starting to, then no, authors shouldn't be paid for the whole book if a reader is skipping and skimming their way through. That defeats the whole purpose of being paid by the page.
> 
> Many novelists cheered when the pages read system was announced. Now that Amazon is actually figuring out how to count the pages read, some might not be so enthusiastic. If it leads to novels with less filler I'm all for it, though.
> 
> I can agree with that. The whole pages read system is a mess. I long for the days of KU1.


Kind of a long time to finally being able to count pages that pay authors. Perhaps Amazon should figure out such an important thing before implementing the system. It's really unacceptable. Just a thought.


----------



## C. Gockel

> Thanks. That'd be nice.


So, my personal books are actually getting MORE page reads this month. The KU box set I'm in seems to be doing a little less well than similar box sets have done in the same genre in the past. (It's still doing so well that I'll probably start another one as soon as this one closes. If you're in sci-fi and want to be in a KU set between January 10th and April 10th let me know.)

Skipping through box sets and only reading the pages you want to read, and only being PAID for the pages people want to read seems completely reasonable to me. It also seems likely to me that it is much more this than people reading in the page flip mode. I'm sure that occurs, but I'm not sure how much.


----------



## NotAPenguin

KelliWolfe said:


> Really? Because all through the last 20 pages there have been any number of people who said they didn't believe anything at all out of the ordinary was happening even when members who normally get a million page reads a month were reporting drops of 50% or more, and accused the people insisting that there really was a problem of overreaction and even hysteria. To the point where some members were demanding the pen names/earnings/page read data of people _posting on private forums_ to back up the assertions being made that this was widespread and not just related to a handful of prawny "Chicken Littles" on kboards who never got more than 50 page reads a day anyway.
> 
> It's not like this is exactly the first time that Amazon has screwed the pooch, either, but there are some members here who would defend Amazon to their last breath if Jeff Bezos streamed videos of himself dismembering live kittens while the board of directors applauded.


Yes, this 1000%. And some were weirdly aggressive about it too!

I'm glad no kittens were dismembered this time lol. Kelli Wolfe, you've got a friend.


----------



## Used To Be BH

katrina46 said:


> Well, to be fair to those who stay and yet still complain, sales are somewhat subject to Amazon's whims. When they give visibility to someone just because they're in KU they have to take that visibility away from someone else who isn't in the program. I've heard people say that isn't true, but I don't see how it can't be. Not everyone can have visibility or no one would have it. For someone to get it, someone else has to lose it.


As far as I can tell, it's not that Amazon arbitrarily gives visibility to KU books. It's that (at least as long as KU borrows continue to contribute to ranking), all other things being equal, for two books with the same sales, but one is in KU and one not, the one in KU is probably going to rank higher and hence be more visible. Actually, since leaving KU means leaving Select, books out of KU also aren't being advertised through AMS, so that's another visibility hit.

That said, your basic point, that people can be unhappy with KU but feel kind of stuck with it, is definitely valid. Over time one might cultivate compensatory sales by going wide, but in the short term it's possible that leaving KU would cause a drop in income. If your KU page reads have dropped 50%, you will naturally be worried--but making them drop 100% isn't going to strike everyone as a wonderful solution.


----------



## sela

SidK said:


> Alright, I am going to volunteer my chart for KENPC reads over the last 90 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sept 22, 2016 was the first day of 0 KENPC for me in months and all those flatlined blue circles near '0' are actually almost all 0s. There have been a few reads in between them but they were much less than from the earlier period. Almost all the page reads are from my two space opera books as I get only intermittent reads from the remaining two war-fiction novels I have in KU.
> 
> I am a new author so I don't know whether this is the Page Reads problem or this is the normal decline. But the *sudden drop* from 22nd Sept. makes me suspicious.
> 
> Experienced authors, let me know what you think.


Holy crap. That is darn suspicious. That's what we need to see. I have been in and out of KU since it was first introduced and I have never seen a graph like that -- except AFTER I pulled my books out and they were no longer available. That graph -- especially of others have similar graphs -- speaks to some flaw in the page reads algorithms.

Thanks.

This is precisely what we need. For people who are afraid to post their pen name and connect it to their graph, you can post here anonymously (as long as you don't start talking to yourself etc. -- the mods can tell your IP) and make sure to only display data that doesn't directly identify you.


----------



## Anarchist

KelliWolfe said:


> Really? Because all through the last 20 pages there have been any number of people who said they didn't believe anything at all out of the ordinary was happening even when members who normally get a million page reads a month were reporting drops of 50% or more, and accused the people insisting that there really was a problem of overreaction and even hysteria. To the point where some members were demanding the pen names/earnings/page read data of people _posting on private forums_ to back up the assertions being made that this was widespread and not just related to a handful of prawny "Chicken Littles" on kboards who never got more than 50 page reads a day anyway.


I think you're inferring things that were never implied. In this thread, we've seen folks say (I'm paraphrasing)...

"_I'm not seeing this issue on my end_."

"_The effects you're seeing could be due to factors X, Y, and Z_."

"_It'd be nice to have some data to validate the claims_." (I've not seen anyone rudely *demand* pen names or data.)

Amanda mentioned the onset of mass hysteria in the context that many (presumably) effected members were attributing their declining page reads and sales to Amazon's (alleged) wrongdoing when both effects might be due to other factors. I never got the impression that she was saying, "_There's no problem_." Rather, I got the impression she was saying, "_There are a lot of things going on, making it all but impossible to identify what's happening with any real accuracy. So, talk about lawsuits, mass mailings, etc. is probably premature._"



KelliWolfe said:


> ...but there are some members here who would defend Amazon to their last breath if Jeff Bezos streamed videos of himself dismembering live kittens while the board of directors applauded.


Hyperbole won't lend you credibility.

I've not seen anybody in this thread say, "_Amazon is faultless_." Rather, I've seen several members say, "_There are clearly problems at Amazon. Are those problems the cause of whatever you're seeing on your end? Maybe. Maybe not. It's hard to tell at this point._"

In other words...


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

I was referring to hysteria more when people started going after Vellum and assigning malice on Amazon's part, like they were purposely going after some authors.


----------



## sela

Someone asked me to post this graph on their behalf as more evidence for our consideration:



It seems that this author's visibility has dropped significantly in late August, with a few blips, so that KU readers are not downloading and reading. But that's just my eyeball of the data.


----------



## katrina46

Sela said:


> Holy crap. That is darn suspicious. That's what we need to see. I have been in and out of KU since it was first introduced and I have never seen a graph like that -- except AFTER I pulled my books out and they were no longer available. That graph -- especially of others have similar graphs -- speaks to some flaw in the page reads algorithms.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> This is precisely what we need. For people who are afraid to post their pen name and connect it to their graph, you can post here anonymously (as long as you don't start talking to yourself etc. -- the mods can tell your IP) and make sure to only display data that doesn't directly identify you.


That's exactly what mine looks like. I was going along nicely and then overnight I nearly flat lined. Then I got huge spike a couple days ago, and then flat lined again. Actually, you got the spike the same day I did, too, October 16th.. That's what I find the most interesting.


----------



## sela

I just had another thought:

Amazon always encourages authors to be wary of external promotions because of the possibility for fraudulent sales, borrows, downloads, etc. I know there was an issue with Freebooksy for a while and some authors reporting issues with also-boughts after a Freebooksy promo in the summer. I wonder if those authors who used certain external promoters who may have had some fraudulent issues (intentional or otherwise) may have been flagged and monitored more closely?

Perhaps Amazon implemented a new program to monitor page reads and filter them but it only applied to new releases.

Just thinking out loud and probably wrong...


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Sela said:


> I just had another thought:
> 
> Amazon always encourages authors to be wary of external promotions because of the possibility for fraudulent sales, borrows, downloads, etc. I know there was an issue with Freebooksy for a while and some authors reporting issues with also-boughts after a Freebooksy promo in the summer. I wonder if those authors who used certain external promoters who may have had some fraudulent issues (intentional or otherwise) may have been flagged and monitored more closely?
> 
> Perhaps Amazon implemented a new program to monitor page reads and filter them but it only applied to new releases.
> 
> Just thinking out loud and probably wrong...


That Freekbooksy thing was overt. Perhaps it would be interesting to find out who advertised -- and where -- over the past two months.


----------



## Going Incognito

Here's a book report graph for you guys. Now, I didn't get book report until recently, so it only has data back to July 9, which is after my crash started with borrows. Imagine June's blue averages around 650 a day. Imagine back before June, going back a good year, where the blue averaged anywhere between 500 and 650, depending on normal fluctuations. Sales stay about the same. Reads however... Since the end of June, just go down, down, down. I had a new release at the end of Aug that didn't even register. Another new release oct first that did, but not for long. My personal reads crash started about the same day page flip was released, btw. For those who don't have book report- red is sales, blue is KU reads.










_Fixed image width for you; you can do it yourself by adding a width to the first img tag, like this:
[nobbc]







[/nobbc].  --Betsy_


----------



## AllyWho

SidK said:


> Alright, I am going to volunteer my chart for KENPC reads over the last 90 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sept 22, 2016 was the first day of 0 KENPC for me in months and all those flatlined blue circles near '0' are actually almost all 0s.  There have been a few reads in between them but they were much less than from the earlier period. Almost all the page reads are from my two space opera books as I get only intermittent reads from the remaining two war-fiction novels I have in KU.


Graphs are great visual tools, but there is so much going on behind the scenes that you need to know to interpret them. I look at this graph and see new author, 90 day cliff, maybe no promo? and the "sudden drop" is only a couple of hundred pages read to zero and up again. It looks dramatic until you read the scale on the side. And there are the other factors that we know create a drop, like the 30/60/90 day cliffs.


----------



## dragontucker

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That Freekbooksy thing was overt. Perhaps it would be interesting to find out who advertised -- and where -- over the past two months.


Is Freebooksy still good to use? I am about to book a promo with them. But I keep hearing people bring them up in this discussion.


----------



## SidK

Sela said:


> Amazon always encourages authors to be wary of external promotions because of the possibility for fraudulent sales, borrows, downloads, etc. I know there was an issue with Freebooksy for a while and some authors reporting issues with also-boughts after a Freebooksy promo in the summer. I wonder if those authors who used certain external promoters who may have had some fraudulent issues (intentional or otherwise) may have been flagged and monitored more closely?





Amanda M. Lee said:


> That Freekbooksy thing was overt. Perhaps it would be interesting to find out who advertised -- and where -- over the past two months.


I advertised on Freebooksy!!! 

I had a Kindle Free Promotion from August 6th to August 10th and got over a 1,000 free downloads on August 7th, the day of the Freebooksy promotion. I didn't do any promotions after that.

If it is related to Amazon algorithms targeting certain promotions, it is strange that the effect would be felt towards the end of September, almost a month and a half after the promotion was over.

By the way, what was the issue with Freebooksy? I missed that discussion on Kboards. Does anyone have a link to that thread?


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

SidK said:


> I advertised on Freebooksy!!!
> 
> I had a Kindle Free Promotion from August 6th to August 10th and got over a 1,000 free downloads on August 7th, the day of the Freebooksy promotion. I didn't do any promotions after that.
> 
> If it is related to Amazon algorithms targeting certain promotions, it is strange that the effect would be felt towards the end of September, almost a month and a half after the promotion was over.
> 
> By the way, what was the issue with Freebooksy? I missed that discussion on Kboards. Does anyone have a link to that thread?


FreeBooksy was one of the few plates that didn't vet their submissions. A few weeks ago (probably closer to six weeks, I believe, but could be wrong) a group of people (or maybe one person working on a massive scale) booked a ton of FreeBooksy promos for scam books. These were obviously scam books that were very short and poorly written. The day the ads came out, the individual(s) in question moved the price of the books up to something paid and essentially hijacked the also boughts of a bunch of people and skewed the rankings through subterfuge. FreeBooksy acknowledged the problem, and now i believe they have a human looking at submissions instead of everything being automated. It was a real mess in certain circles for a good two weeks.


----------



## Allyson J.

dragontucker said:


> Is Freebooksy still good to use? I am about to book a promo with them. But I keep hearing people bring them up in this discussion.


I had a Bookbub in May, a new release in July, and I ran Freebooksy, ENT, Robin Reads, One Hundred Free Books promo at the end of August. By September, my free downloads and sales flatlined. And by flatlined, I mean not even any downloads of the free book that I'd just heavily promo'd all summer.

Could be a 90 day cliff, or it could be that I was penalized for using a suspicious promo site like Freebooksy.


----------



## katrina46

Bill Hiatt said:


> As far as I can tell, it's not that Amazon arbitrarily gives visibility to KU books. It's that (at least as long as KU borrows continue to contribute to ranking), all other things being equal, for two books with the same sales, but one is in KU and one not, the one in KU is probably going to rank higher and hence be more visible. Actually, since leaving KU means leaving Select, books out of KU also aren't being advertised through AMS, so that's another visibility hit.
> 
> That said, your basic point, that people can be unhappy with KU but feel kind of stuck with it, is definitely valid. Over time one might cultivate compensatory sales by going wide, but in the short term it's possible that leaving KU would cause a drop in income. If your KU page reads have dropped 50%, you will naturally be worried--but making them drop 100% isn't going to strike everyone as a wonderful solution.


I myself am the perfect example. I hate KU, not the idea of a subcription service, but the way it was implemented. Still, I put things in from time to time. The serial I'm currently in the middle of is wide. It was meant for KU. I was going to simultaneously do another for wide. I was literally getting ready to publish the first installment into kU when this thread started and I thought better of it. I'd love to put my next serial in, but if this isn't fixed before I do the first installment it'll have to go wide as well.


----------



## Going Incognito

Hmm, wonder which multi pronged KU problem hit sept 22 ish, like SidK above? I included my free graph to show why pages are moving again a little on this title.
Tho, like I said, I've been floundering since the end of June. 









_Well done, GI! --Betsy_


----------



## SidK

AliceW said:


> Graphs are great visual tools, but there is so much going on behind the scenes that you need to know to interpret them. I look at this graph and see new author, 90 day cliff, maybe no promo? and the "sudden drop" is only a couple of hundred pages read to zero and up again. It looks dramatic until you read the scale on the side. And there are the other factors that we know create a drop, like the 30/60/90 day cliffs.


Possibly. I haven't made up my mind whether I believe it to be Page Reads issue or the natural decline. I haven't even contacted Amazon as I am being patient and will see what happens when I release my next book and promote it. Then I might write to them. But I can afford to take a 'Wait and See' approach as I don't depend on the writing income; I can see why people who count on publishing to pay their bills would be upset.

FWIW; here is some more data

_Starship Conquistador_ was published on April 22, 2016. So it's cliffs were over by July 22nd. _Battleship Avenger_ was published on July 9, 2016, so its 90 day cliff ended recently on Oct 9th. Most of my KENPCs are from those two books.

The only promo as I mentioned upthread was between Aug 6th - 10th.



Amanda M. Lee said:


> FreeBooksy was one of the few plates that didn't vet their submissions. A few weeks ago (probably closer to six weeks, I believe, but could be wrong) a group of people (or maybe one person working on a massive scale) booked a ton of FreeBooksy promos for scam books. These were obviously scam books that were very short and poorly written. The day the ads came out, the individual(s) in question moved the price of the books up to something paid and essentially hijacked the also boughts of a bunch of people and skewed the rankings through subterfuge. FreeBooksy acknowledged the problem, and now i believe they have a human looking at submissions instead of everything being automated. It was a real mess in certain circles for a good two weeks.


Thanks, I am going to be more cautious about booking promos going forward.



TwistedTales said:


> I'll play. I don't know how to post a chart, but I have one sci fi book published for two months that looks the same as SidK.


Here is what I did. 
1.) Open the Chart screen on KDP Dashboard. 
2.) Screenshot -> Alt + Print Screen
2.) Open MS Paint, go to 'Edit' then 'Paste'
4.) Crop out the chart from the larger picture, paste into a new, blank MS Paint canvas and save it.
5.) Upload the image file to a blog. 
6.) Paste the image file url in between img /img tags and include [].


----------



## Indiecognito

Amanda M. Lee said:


> FreeBooksy was one of the few plates that didn't vet their submissions. A few weeks ago (probably closer to six weeks, I believe, but could be wrong) a group of people (or maybe one person working on a massive scale) booked a ton of FreeBooksy promos for scam books. These were obviously scam books that were very short and poorly written. The day the ads came out, the individual(s) in question moved the price of the books up to something paid and essentially hijacked the also boughts of a bunch of people and skewed the rankings through subterfuge. FreeBooksy acknowledged the problem, and now i believe they have a human looking at submissions instead of everything being automated. It was a real mess in certain circles for a good two weeks.


I had those also-boughts. I don't imagine readers were excited to see a pile of one-star books in the list.


----------



## JRTomlin

I don't feel like doing a screenshot of my KENP chart but I'll give my numbers reluctantly, frankly, because the slights to people who haven't seen a fall have gotten tiresome. I was seeing a slight downward trend already, but nothing unexpected, after a couple of September promotions including a Bookbub one.

Oct 5 - 17,592
Oct 6 - 17,600 
Oct 7 - 14,791
Oct 8 - 13,605
Oct 9 - 14,103

There is nothing unusual about variation from day to day of several thousand page reads, so a drop of 500 isn't too startling. And just as a FYI regarding Bookfreesy, I did a promotion with them on Sept 21 that had around 2000 downloads. I may have lucked out in that not causing scrutiny, or they may have simply not found much suspicious. Who knows.

I am honestly not sure what all this tells us.


----------



## Guest

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I was referring to hysteria more when people started going after Vellum and assigning malice on Amazon's part, like they were purposely going after some authors.


No one WENT after Vellum. People (including myself) was wondering why certain authors had the formatting of their books, messed with. And we were wondering, not TELLING, if these things all played a factor... because IF they did then it would change our approach. The whole thing is a darn mystery and, YES, a lot of it is whispers and theories, but we are trying to do something Amazon hasn't as yet... get the the heart of the issue and figure out what the heck is going on.
Are we not all on the same side, Vellum, authors, etc? Please forgive me while I get my knickers in a twist but this situation is CRUD. Sorry.


----------



## 75845

As this thread is about page reads, which means current activity in a way that sales does not, I was wondering if there could be any major events that had readers reading something else (a new Harry Potter) or doing something else. So for those genres impacted most did something major get published.

For me as a non bestseller the key thing remains Page Flip, not in terms of sole blame for the numbers, but because Amazon implemented something that did not count pages on a service paid by pages read. Whatever the truth of the matter I am delighted that this thread happened as it allowed me to rethink my forthcoming non fiction book, which was planned for KU, but will definitely not go there now, as Page Flip and clamp downs on click to the end (aka appendices) will hit non fiction really hard. So those reporting problems and sussing out the Page Flip link that led to Amazon's admission was very useful to me. As was those who reported that their Septembers were in line with expectations.


----------



## ......~......

Amanda M. Lee said:


> FreeBooksy was one of the few plates that didn't vet their submissions. A few weeks ago (probably closer to six weeks, I believe, but could be wrong) a group of people (or maybe one person working on a massive scale) booked a ton of FreeBooksy promos for scam books. These were obviously scam books that were very short and poorly written. The day the ads came out, the individual(s) in question moved the price of the books up to something paid and essentially hijacked the also boughts of a bunch of people and skewed the rankings through subterfuge. FreeBooksy acknowledged the problem, and now i believe they have a human looking at submissions instead of everything being automated. It was a real mess in certain circles for a good two weeks.


I first noticed those books in my also boughts in July. I started a thread about it here on July 12. It was happening for months.


----------



## sela

Going Incognito said:


> Hmm, wonder which multi pronged KU problem hit sept 22 ish, like SidK above? I included my free graph to show why pages are moving again a little on this title.
> Tho, like I said, I've been floundering since the end of June.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Well done, GI! --Betsy_


I understand that some authors might not want to show their actual data with numbers but without actual numbers, we can't tell if a drop in page reads is significant or not. For example, if the month's average is 800 page reads per day and you drop to 300 per day, that is different than if you went from 8000 to 300. Drops can look precipitous but we need hard numbers to determine if the drops are significant or normal fluctuations.


----------



## jloome

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That Freekbooksy thing was overt. Perhaps it would be interesting to find out who advertised -- and where -- over the past two months.


What happened with Freebooksy? That was where my permafree problems started, after a series of promos with them that got ridiculously (albmost bookbubbish) numbers of downloads?

Might explain why some permafrees are affected. Again, day six now since getting rid of mine, sales still back in the normal range for the first time since Spring.


----------



## jloome

Amanda M. Lee said:


> FreeBooksy was one of the few plates that didn't vet their submissions. A few weeks ago (probably closer to six weeks, I believe, but could be wrong) a group of people (or maybe one person working on a massive scale) booked a ton of FreeBooksy promos for scam books. These were obviously scam books that were very short and poorly written. The day the ads came out, the individual(s) in question moved the price of the books up to something paid and essentially hijacked the also boughts of a bunch of people and skewed the rankings through subterfuge. FreeBooksy acknowledged the problem, and now i believe they have a human looking at submissions instead of everything being automated. It was a real mess in certain circles for a good two weeks.


Oh. LORDY.

This is what happened to me. I had FOUR promos that got it like this (based on the 'customers also bought') and ever since (this is August), the sequels to my permafree have been severely suppressed, to less than half their prior sales.

I could tell from my BookBubs earlier this year that the sales algorithm wasn't being as generous with sell-ons but put it down to timing; then that happened in August and I assumed it was the same problem people reported in September with KU.

Oy vey. I had more than five thousand downloads off those Freebooksy ads; no wonder my rankings have been in upheaval since.


----------



## jloome

Allyson J. said:


> I had a Bookbub in May, a new release in July, and I ran Freebooksy, ENT, Robin Reads, One Hundred Free Books promo at the end of August. By September, my free downloads and sales flatlined. And by flatlined, I mean not even any downloads of the free book that I'd just heavily promo'd all summer.
> 
> Could be a 90 day cliff, or it could be that I was penalized for using a suspicious promo site like Freebooksy.


Nah, same as me. Exactly. I took my permafree off free five days ago and gambled that was the issue, and made it exclusive to Amazon at 99 cents. It has gone up into the sub top 100s and sales are back near normal.

Wow, Neither part told us. It's like they all suck immensely as human beings or something. A general note mailed out by Freebooksy would have resolved so much grief.


----------



## Going Incognito

Sela said:


> I understand that some authors might not want to show their actual data with numbers but without actual numbers, we can't tell if a drop in page reads is significant or not. For example, if the month's average is 800 page reads per day and you drop to 300 per day, that is different than if you went from 8000 to 300. Drops can look precipitous but we need hard numbers to determine if the drops are significant or normal fluctuations.


Fair enough. I'll take all the eyeballs I can get. I just wish I had anything that showed pre-June/July.


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## sela

Going Incognito said:


> Fair enough. I'll take all the eyeballs I can get. I just wish I had anything that showed pre-June/July.


Thanks!

Is this for one book or several?

That is just so weird to see one day with 3,000 or 5,000 pages read and then nothing for a week and then 3,000 or 1,500 and then nothing. Is this a normal pattern for people in KU?


----------



## PhoenixS

I wouldn't rush to point at JUST Freebooksy. The freebie issue is (was?) affecting most free books. The BookBub books seem to have gotten a pass. And I've routinely been seeing 3 publishers' books in the Top 20 that have undoubtedly botted their way to the top, along with a Warrior Forum type site that's been pushing books to #1. But otherwise legit books weren't able to hit expected ranks in September. I've been trying to get eyes-on from Amazon on this thread with about 50 datapoints of graphed data that clearly demonstrate an issue. http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242084.0.html

As noted upthread, permafrees seemed to hold their ranks from their pre-Sept 5 or so positions until they were promoted, and then they would be caught up in the rank-wonk too.

It *appears* that whatever freeloads were not counted toward rank were also not being counted toward poplist placement on the other side. That meant SELECT books were not getting the typical bump up the poplist charts and that PERMAFREES were tumbling in rank AND losing poplist placement too.

Does this affect KU reads/borrows? YES! Anyone browsing for KU books who browses by filtering the poplist (likely a lot, if not the majority, of browsers) weren't seeing their promoted freebies get the anticipated visibility. It's why so many folk aren't seeing an expected spike in page reads after successful free promos.

It's affecting Permafrees the SAME as it's affecting Select books. So it's not punishing only permafrees and certainly isn't making Select Free an attractive option.

Or wasn't. Melanie in that thread reported her Oct 9-10 promo ran as expected both rank-wise and return to poplist-wise. So maybe this was one of many issues being fixed. I have several freebies making another run starting Oct 20. I'll track ranks and do some compares. Meanwhile, no one else has been reporting ranks and numbers so I'm in the dark about where we're at currently with freebies.

In any case, most of the data points I have pointing to wildly fluctuating ranks compared to downloads were from a group promo where pretty much everyone saw issues whether they were running additional ads like Freebooksy or not. I ran one small ad additionally on only one of our two books, and both books were affected.

So while I think there's correlation between promotion for free books and lack of tail on the other side, based on the collected data, I'm not comfortable pointing fingers at any one ad site. The ONLY known factor is that BookBub features escaped the free rank suppression unscathed. As well as some of the prolific scammers. Since the poplist algos have clearly punished BookBub features on the tail end for years, I can't believe favoring BB and scammers was Amazon's intended result from whatever tweaks it made.


----------



## Going Incognito

Sela said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Is this for one book or several?
> 
> That is just so weird to see one day with 3,000 or 5,000 pages read and then nothing for a week and then 3,000 or 1,500 and then nothing. Is this a normal pattern for people in KU?


One book. Weird, right? Def not a normal KU pattern. It's like they're saving up a pot of reads til they can verify a few thousand and drop them in. Then what? They get busy for a few days, before going oh yeah, should prob verify a few more thousand of those reads that are piling up while I've got a few minutes.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Sela said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Is this for one book or several?
> 
> That is just so weird to see one day with 3,000 or 5,000 pages read and then nothing for a week and then 3,000 or 1,500 and then nothing. Is this a normal pattern for people in KU?


No. This is my graph for the book that hit on September 5th for me. Now, granted, it's in my lowest selling series and did have that switching "also boughts" and "also viewed" problem that lasted almost five days and kind of muted the release. That was the also boughts, though, not the reads. The line is pretty much what I would expect for this particular series.


----------



## Colin

Boyd said:


> Apparently I got modded for mentioning tinfoil hattery?! My post is gone. Shucks. Tinfoil cooks up some good taters.


Foiled again!


----------



## Going Incognito

Amanda M. Lee said:


> No. This is my graph for the book that hit on September 5th for me. Now, granted, it's in my lowest selling series and did have that switching "also boughts" and "also viewed" problem that lasted almost five days and kind of muted the release. That was the also boughts, though, not the reads. The line is pretty much what I would expect for this particular series.


Right! A sloping fall off over time. Not my weird borkedness above. 
Same 'normal' slope as this one. This was pubbed back in March, so it's already fallen a lot, but it's a normal slope.


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## Colin

Boyd said:


> I guess that's a wrap.


Yep!


----------



## dragontucker

Hate to ask this again. But, do you guys think there is still a problem with promoting permafree books with Freebooksy? I certainly don't want to spend $100 if it's only going to hurt my book and not do any good.


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## ......~......

It's nice seeing people posting graphs. And look - they didn't need to reveal their pen names to do it!


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## Going Incognito

But even 'normal' curves aren't _right._
This one was pubbed almost exactly a year ago today. Mid October, 2015. It was _stable._ It was still plugging along just fine. July it had 70k page reads a month. Sept had 17k. Normal looking curve, but still not normal behavior for a steady book waaaay past any cliffs.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## PhoenixS

**********


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## KelliWolfe

I've got a 3 book set that comprises the last of my books in KU. The first was released in May, but I unpublished it and rewrote it then re-released it in late July. #2 was published in mid-August and #3 on August 29th. All of them were hovering around the 20-50k ranks from the time they went live until September 22nd. On the 23rd all 3 of them dropped off the rankings cliff at once to about 150k, and they've been staying there. The data was there in the Author Central book rank charts and I verified it on Amazon.com.

I checked the Author Central charts today and that has effectively been erased. The drop on the 23rd now shows only 20-30k, and the rankings have *mostly* recovered. Nothing shows that they were ever ranked in the 150ks. Page reads have bumped up from the low, but are still only peaking at about 50% of what they were before the 23rd.

I used 2 free days for the 1st book on September 10/11, but I didn't run any extra promotions.

I don't know that the data is especially useful, but it does indicate that they are continuing to work on the problem.


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## chloegarner

Amanda M. Lee said:


> No. This is my graph for the book that hit on September 5th for me. Now, granted, it's in my lowest selling series and did have that switching "also boughts" and "also viewed" problem that lasted almost five days and kind of muted the release. That was the also boughts, though, not the reads. The line is pretty much what I would expect for this particular series.


Respectfully, I disagree. I think the difference between your curve and Incognito's is that yours can't identify individual readers. (The volume of data obscures individual behavior.) My curves look exactly like incognito's - integer multiples of each book read, usually over 1-2 days. I can tell what day any given reader starts any given book, and whether they took 1, 2, or 3 days to do it, or if they abandoned it midway through. I see one readthrough on my series in August from the UK, and what I saw was consistent with that normal pattern. What I saw from Amazon US at the same time was books that, for a single download, would have pages reported on 5 days out of 8, all in very small amounts that don't add up to a full read. Maybe they abandoned it midway, but I've never seen pages spread that flat for a single read like that before, and this is across all titles, starting after the 23rd. (I look at the groupings of pages and add them up: that's a full read, that's a full read, that's a partial read... that's garbage.) I've never seen anything like it at all. It has the same step-down people are anecdotally seeing, but for me it goes from integer multiples of KENPC for each book to just a slurry of non-data. I find myself wondering if there's a time filter on reporting, so if spammers are switching reading accounts on and off quite quickly, their writing accounts don't get paid for any pages after the reading or writing account shuts down. Kind of a clawback. At this point, assuming I have 2 full reads coming through on the one book that's reporting daily pages, I've got about a month and a half to wait.

My business computer and my writing computer are separate, so I would need to take a few extra steps to get data posted, and it's hard to see the signal for the noise when you put all of the books on top of each other; it's also hard to form a cohesive narrative without all of them showing the same behavior at the same time. Most of these books are years old, and the three that are recent have weeks in between them for publishing date, so I don't think this is a cliff.

From a promo perspective, I did a cross-promo late in September. The dates don't appear to sync up at all.


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## dragontucker

PhoenixS said:


> I'm assuming you read my loooong comment maybe 8 posts above yours and now want additional opinions on the subject of Freebooksy, permafrees and promotion.
> 
> I think it's impossible to tell until enough folk chime in with consistently captured rank vs download numbers since Oct 1. I'm taking the gamble for my Select books. But I won't have data on my books to share before Oct 25. I'll be running 11 freebies -- 1 via BookBub, 3 more with substantial promos (including Freebooksy), and 1 with minimal promo. The other 6 will be tag-alongs with no scheduled promos of their own.


Yes. I did  LOL. I am scared about using Freebooksy now. I wish you the best of luck though. I might still use them. Not 100% sure yet though. Guess we need more data.


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## Hailstorm

Well, for what it's worth re: Freebooksy a while back. Got close to 1500 downloads, peaked only at about 500 and got zero read through. Zero, even though a review from the promo popped up shortly on a sequel. I will say that I updated my book prior to the run, so maybe with the Sept. glitches, ranking was affected. The Zon may be seriously glitchy or not as cozy with Freebooksy as it once was. Who really knows at this point?


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## Abalone

Amazon would be capable of catching the referrer of the download. But is it really that or is the Page Flip doing it? The more I think about the more I find myself sitting on the couch pondering for hours what Amazon did in September and why they didn't test Page Flip before pushing it en-mass. Apart from the other day's generous boost, I wonder if we'll see more of it in the coming weeks.


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## PearlEarringLady

PhoenixS said:


> Melanie in that thread reported her Oct 9-10 promo ran as expected both rank-wise and return to poplist-wise. So maybe this was one of many issues being fixed. I have several freebies making another run starting Oct 20. I'll track ranks and do some compares. Meanwhile, no one else has been reporting ranks and numbers so I'm in the dark about where we're at currently with freebies.


I've added my recent data to your free-rank-wonkiness thread, Phoenix. A 5-day free promo in early October seemed to give close to expected ranks, and there's been clear uplift in pages read since, and also sell-through to other books, so this looks to be settling down somewhat (I'll leave it to you to determine when it's definitively fixed).



dragontucker said:


> I am scared about using Freebooksy now.


Don't be.  As soon as the issue was pointed out to them, they fixed it within a couple of days, and it seems to be staying fixed.


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## Graeme Reynolds

I've noticed something rather screwy going on with my figures recently also. The attached graph shows 3 Bookbubs hitting over a 6 week period. Average sales across 15 titles were about 10 copies a day prior to the promotions hitting.
For the first book I padded sales out with heavy promotion either side of the bookbub. The second book was just a BB on its own and the third book had 1 promo beforehand and 2 afterwards with some of the cheaper providers.

What is worrying is that pretty much as soon as the $0.99 period ended, sales dropped back to the 10 a day average across all titles.

Page reads usually average around 5k a day across all titles but had been in decline early in the summer and were at around the 2.5-3k average level. I'm certainly not seeing the increase in page reads I would expect from a single bookbub, let alone 3 across three different titles in that period either.


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## RinG

Just to add to the data pool, these are my book report graphs for my latest 3 releases. One in March, one in July, and one at the beginning of October. I haven't included amounts, because in this case I think it's the shape of the graph that counts. I, personally, can't tell which one is which!
























The giant spike at the beginning is all my preorders dropping at once, not a sales spike that would result in a big ranking spike that might cause a borrows spike.

Initially, I thought my latest release was being very slow, especially after hearing the issues everyone else was reporting, but when I compared the actual data, it's pretty much identical to all the others.


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## Acrocanthosaurus

Rinelle Grey said:


> Just to add to the data pool, these are my book report graphs for my latest 3 releases. One in March, one in July, and one at the beginning of October. I haven't included amounts, because in this case I think it's the shape of the graph that counts. I, personally, can't tell which one is which!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The giant spike at the beginning is all my preorders dropping at once, not a sales spike that would result in a big ranking spike that might cause a borrows spike.
> 
> Initially, I thought my latest release was being very slow, especially after hearing the issues everyone else was reporting, but when I compared the actual data, it's pretty much identical to all the others.


The distance between that blue line should start to rise from your red line over time.

As people read the book, reads will begin to accumulate at an increasing rate until they peak, since it takes time to read. There should be people starting as others finish, with the bulk of reads coming on a short delay of a day or two after the spike in borrows corresponding to the spike in sales.

It should be easy to figure out what to expect.

Take the length of your book in KENPC and multiply it by the number of sales you had during the period you're looking at. That's a high number. Divide that in half, that's a low number assuming an average of 50% read through.

So

I get ten sales on a 100 page book I should expect 500 to 1000 reads from that day's activity, spread out over the next few days.

That's lowballing it. My own data from several novel releases this year indicates that many more people borrow than buy.

If they dropped off but did not dramatically improve I'd chalk that up to low read throughs, but particularly that second graph doesn't look right, like reader behavior.


----------



## AllyWho

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Take the length of your book in KENPC and multiply it by the number of sales you had during the period you're looking at. That's a high number. Divide that in half, that's a low number assuming an average of 50% read through.
> So
> I get ten sales on a 100 page book I should expect 500 to 1000 reads from that day's activity, spread out over the next few days.


But *sales* has nothing to do with borrows/reads. How can you take the number of sales, multiple it by KENPC and say that's how many reads your should expect? Or are you saying that sales and borrows are an identical number? So if you have 10 sales you also have 10 borrows? In which case, what research is that based on?

Telling people sales should result in x number of reads just highlights everything that is wrong with the misinformation in this thread


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## Acrocanthosaurus

I'm not saying they are identical. Based on my own numbers, borrows should actually be higher than sales.

We don't know how many raw borrows we get so we have to find something that works for estimation purposes.

On my bestseller this year I was getting about 750 page reads for every one sale. Based on the length of the book that's over one borrow per sale.

If we weren't in the dark about raw borrow numbers this would be much easier.

If someone has a 300 page book and is seeing <100 pages per sale something is really wrong.


----------



## dragontucker

I read an article on a very recent blog that claimed permafree books are bad news now on Amazon. I am not sure if there is any truth to this article or not. But basically, it said that Amazon updated it's algo and free books are considered to be "scammy." It said you might be hurting your books by have a free book on Amazon. Do you guys think there is any truth to this? I love having free books on amazon because they are great promotion tools and give readers a chance to try out your work


----------



## MissingAlaska

dragontucker said:


> I read an article on a very recent blog that claimed permafree books are bad news now on Amazon. I am not sure if there is any truth to this article or not. But basically, it said that Amazon updated it's algo and free books are considered to be "scammy." It said you might be hurting your books by have a free book on Amazon. Do you guys think there is any truth to this? I love having free books on amazon because they are great promotion tools and give readers a chance to try out your work


Consider the recent scam that was in the news about the guy raking in big bucks by having automated bots download his free books by the thousands to give them a boost in ratings (which ranked them highly when the went to paid). Some authors are reporting that perrmafrees are no longer effective as well. I would not be surprised if Amazon eliminated all of the ranking benefits of free.


----------



## KelliWolfe

michaelsnuckols said:


> Consider the recent scam that was in the news about the guy raking in big bucks by having automated bots download his free books by the thousands to give them a boost in ratings (which ranked them highly when the went to paid). Some authors are reporting that perrmafrees are no longer effective as well. I would not be surprised if Amazon eliminated all of the ranking benefits of free.


That hasn't worked in years, though. Free downloads do not count towards rankings on the paid charts. As soon as you switch from free to paid your rankings reset.


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## NotAPenguin

AliceW said:


> But *sales* has nothing to do with borrows/reads. How can you take the number of sales, multiple it by KENPC and say that's how many reads your should expect? Or are you saying that sales and borrows are an identical number? So if you have 10 sales you also have 10 borrows? In which case, what research is that based on?
> 
> Telling people sales should result in x number of reads just highlights everything that is wrong with the misinformation in this thread


Oh no, there absolutely is a direct correlation. When a new book has more than 1000 sales a day then I expect a certain number of corresponding borrows, which should continue to rise gently and then fall IF you have a big boost. If the book takes off and stays above 1000 sales a day, both sales and page reads rise but borrows should have a nice gentle slope downwards after the sales drop off. Because people be readin'.

That's what is freaking us out. There's much less of a relationship recently amongst those of us who make most of our money from borrows. IN MY CIRCLE.

Not speaking for everyone.

Not. Speaking. For. Everyone.

Carry on.

&#128516;


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## rickblackmon

Atlantisatheart said:


> Has anybody noticed anything hinky with their author ranking today? My rank jumped 30 places into the top 30, where it shouldn't be, considering I've pulled books and page reads are low, and then settled two spots lower twenty minutes later. No extra page dumps in my charts though.


I'm not in the top 30, but I jumped 2500 places today... With almost no sales.


----------



## Crystal_

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> The distance between that blue line should start to rise from your red line over time.
> 
> As people read the book, reads will begin to accumulate at an increasing rate until they peak, since it takes time to read. There should be people starting as others finish, with the bulk of reads coming on a short delay of a day or two after the spike in borrows corresponding to the spike in sales.
> 
> It should be easy to figure out what to expect.
> 
> Take the length of your book in KENPC and multiply it by the number of sales you had during the period you're looking at. That's a high number. Divide that in half, that's a low number assuming an average of 50% read through.
> 
> So
> 
> I get ten sales on a 100 page book I should expect 500 to 1000 reads from that day's activity, spread out over the next few days.
> 
> That's lowballing it. My own data from several novel releases this year indicates that many more people borrow than buy.
> 
> If they dropped off but did not dramatically improve I'd chalk that up to low read throughs, but particularly that second graph doesn't look right, like reader behavior.


There isn't any normal borrow behavior. Different books will have different ratios, even with the same author. I suppose if you're in a series you might have a pretty good idea of the ratio. Otherwise, you can't really know. A new book might appeal to a different audience. It might be less or more appealing to KU readers for any given reason. I have three series and all three of them have different buy/borrow ratios.

I agree that there is a problem, but to get to the bottom of it, we need clear information. Borrows could be lower on any given book for any number of reasons.


----------



## dragontucker

michaelsnuckols said:


> Consider the recent scam that was in the news about the guy raking in big bucks by having automated bots download his free books by the thousands to give them a boost in ratings (which ranked them highly when the went to paid). Some authors are reporting that perrmafrees are no longer effective as well. I would not be surprised if Amazon eliminated all of the ranking benefits of free.


Thanks. But, can permafree books actually harm the ranking of your paid books in the connected series? That was what I read that was concerning. I guess nobody knows. I would be interested to hear from authors with permafree books. Is the ranking typical? How about the paid books in the series? Everything normal? Just something interesting to think about.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Crystal_ said:


> There isn't any normal borrow behavior. Different books will have different ratios, even with the same author. I suppose if you're in a series you might have a pretty good idea of the ratio. Otherwise, you can't really know. A new book might appeal to a different audience. It might be less or more appealing to KU readers for any given reason. I have three series and all three of them have different buy/borrow ratios.
> 
> I agree that there is a problem, but to get to the bottom of it, we need clear information. Borrows could be lower on any given book for any number of reasons.


Every single book I've released since KU2 has followed a near identical pattern actually. Different numbers and ranks (within a certain range) but absolutely the same shape mountains and valleys. This is true for my friends as well. The borrows climb slightly behind sales and have a longer tail, esp for longer books or bundles.

I'm sort of surprised so many people are saying they never noticed this. It's like clockwork, unless you have a flop. Until now. Some author friends are still having that gentle slope, but the page read numbers are 30% lower (or more).

I'm calling this KU3 and I'm afraid to launch in it.


----------



## PhoenixS

**********


----------



## KelliWolfe

I honestly never thought to look to see if anyone was borrowing the books on their free days rather than grabbing the free downloads. I wasn't even aware it was an option. I could have sworn at one point when looking at the product pages during a free run that the borrow button was either not there or had been disabled so that the free download was the only option available to the readers.

I'll take your word that it works that way - you deal with that a *lot* more than I do.  

It does seem rather odd that Amazon would set it up to work that way, though. That was the whole reason why they split the free and paid lists a few years back, so that free books flipped to paid wouldn't own the top 100 lists. Then again, I can't think of anything they've done in the last couple of years that actually makes sense, so...


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I don't think that Amazon is trying to phase out KU as some suggest.

It would be against their usual strategy to "phase out" KU by forcing legit content producers to leave while it completely fills up with scammers because they're the only ones who can make money in it. They push it as a flagship program and promote it very heavily to their customers.

The past major actions they took were both to improve customer experience: First they switched to paying books by percentage read rather than a flat payout when a reader passes 10%, then they took steps to limit the benefits of uploading huge books of gibberish and enticing readers to click all the way to the end, such as limiting and recalculating KENPC and prohibiting non-TOC internal links.

Now they admittedly implemented some kind of fraud measure they won't explain, again trying to cut down on scamlets in the store.

Unfortunately, they have a job for a scalpel and they're using a sledgehammer. I don't think this is intentional- Amazon is tuning the system, but they will never, ever confirm that.

Why? Look at this thread. A couple of their frontline support personnel admit there is a filter in a few emails and it spreads like wildfire.

Authors sometimes have some tunnel vision about what Amazon is doing.

KDP is not the Kindle division and the Kindle division does not control Amazon.

I'd bet money that PageFlip is something that the Kindle app team designed to appeal to readers, without any input from any other department under the Kindle/eBook arm of Amazon, and subsequently dumped in the lap of KDP and the technical people to get it to work with self publishing and Kindle Unlimited.

What I'm saying here is never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by the left hand not knowing what the right is doing.

The thing is, we have all the evidence here to tell us that Amazon is panicking over this internally, trying to get PageFlip and the fraud detection system to work. They've confirmed to people that there is a problem but the front line support people are sending us a form letter written by the legal team- it's obvious already that KDP has said things that they legal department has forced them to talk back already. See the edits made to the PageFlip announcement and the confusion of different reps telling different people different things.

This is not a new normal. 50% of monthly reads -which would be 1.5 _billion_- are not being generated on legit books by scambots covering their tracks, that is flat out absurd. It's also clearly not affecting everyone equally.

I have confidence that this will be fixed, and the best thing to do is wait- but not wait idly. If you have data, send it to Amazon and inform them of potential issues.



KelliWolfe said:


> I honestly never thought to look to see if anyone was borrowing the books on their free days rather than grabbing the free downloads. I wasn't even aware it was an option. I could have sworn at one point when looking at the product pages during a free run that the borrow button was either not there or had been disabled so that the free download was the only option available to the readers.
> 
> I'll take your word that it works that way - you deal with that a *lot* more than I do.
> 
> It does seem rather odd that Amazon would set it up to work that way, though. That was the whole reason why they split the free and paid lists a few years back, so that free books flipped to paid wouldn't own the top 100 lists. Then again, I can't think of anything they've done in the last couple of years that actually makes sense, so...


I haven't done free runs since the KU 1.0 days, but people absolutely borrow instead of "buying" freebies under Select.

The way KU works feels very much like, if your strategy is optimal, buys are a way to drive borrows, not the other way around.

Could Amazon be interested in changing that? Yes, but they would do that through changes to the product search and display algorithm, not by cheating reads somehow.

Again I'm confident that no one at Amazon is intentionally trying to screw authors. This all screams unintended consequences to me.


----------



## JRTomlin

KelliWolfe said:


> I honestly never thought to look to see if anyone was borrowing the books on their free days rather than grabbing the free downloads. I wasn't even aware it was an option. I could have sworn at one point when looking at the product pages during a free run that the borrow button was either not there or had been disabled so that the free download was the only option available to the readers.
> 
> I'll take your word that it works that way - you deal with that a *lot* more than I do.
> 
> It does seem rather odd that Amazon would set it up to work that way, though. That was the whole reason why they split the free and paid lists a few years back, so that free books flipped to paid wouldn't own the top 100 lists. Then again, I can't think of anything they've done in the last couple of years that actually makes sense, so...


I disagree that it doesn't make sense. It makes a lot of sense.

Yes, people do borrow free books, I suspect out of habit if they usually borrow, but not in such vast numbers that when they come off free they 'dominate' the paid lists. The one Phoenix used as an example came off at around #500. I think my last BB may have come off around #1000 (wouldn't swear to it though). It was high enough that it was at the top of all of its subcategories but not not on the main Top 100.

What it does is give the KU novel enough of a boost that they are somewhat rewarded for being in KU, but not excessively so. I suspect that is working exactly as intended.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I haven't done free runs since the KU 1.0 days, but people absolutely borrow instead of "buying" freebies under Select.


This actually happens a lot during my free runs. As a reader, I prefer to borrow rather than download because I have way too many books in my library. Also, the fact that I can only have ten books out at a time forces me to read the books I borrow.


----------



## PhoenixS

I just did a percentage compare for our catalog on the .com store between Jan 1 through July 31 and Aug 1 through Sept 30. While there will be fluctuations and variations among single titles, of course, trending across a larger dataset over an extended amount of time will generally soften the effect of outliers. This is for a dataset that started with 73 titles on Jan 1 and ends with 79 titles on Sept 30.

Jan 1 - July 31
------------
28% of income via sales
72% via borrows
581 page reads to 1 sale

Aug 1 - Sept 30
------------
34.8% via sales
65.2% via reads
394 reads to 1 sale

Interestingly, while I've been estimating that we got about 30% fewer reads than expected during Aug and Sept, the page-reads-to-sales ratios actually bear this out. 394/581 = 67.8%. Or down 32.2%. Even with promo. And even with a Sept promo that was initially more successful than any of our other 2016 promos.

We also went from just over a quarter of our income coming from sales to just over a third.

Just adding some data points to the hive mind.

Our sales charts *look* fairly normal too. Except for the ones where there isn't any tail for some of the promo'd free books (the non-BB'd ones). Otherwise, without the historical context of how our catalog typically trends, folk here would look at our charts and declare they're following normal behavior.


----------



## Atunah

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> This actually happens a lot during my free runs. As a reader, I prefer to borrow rather than download because I have way too many books in my library. Also, the fact that I can only have ten books out at a time forces me to read the books I borrow.


Yeah, that is one reason. I have like over 3000 books in my library, I just borrow it. But most of all I wouldn't really notice if a book is free if I just look at KU books on my kindle or in the store. The price is kind of small and it looks exactly the same with the big nice borrow for free button right there for me. Since I don't subscribe to any ad sites for free books anymore, only time I know a book is free is in the emails I get from ereaderiq where I sign up for specific books or authors. Otherwise, I don't pay attention to that at all. Usually I add a KU book to my wishlists, so its not going to be free anymore anyway by the time I get to it.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

What Writes at Midnight said:


> PhoenixS, interesting! If you REALLY wanted to drive yourself nuts, you could do a month-by-month ratio breakdown and see if there was a noticeable cliff where the changes "took effect."


You don't do this?

I'm honestly a little baffled that people aren't keeping track of buy:read ratios and squeezing every out of inference out of their metrics that they can to figure out if their books are hitting the spot with readers or not.



Graeme Reynolds said:


> I've noticed something rather screwy going on with my figures recently also. The attached graph shows 3 Bookbubs hitting over a 6 week period. Average sales across 15 titles were about 10 copies a day prior to the promotions hitting.
> For the first book I padded sales out with heavy promotion either side of the bookbub. The second book was just a BB on its own and the third book had 1 promo beforehand and 2 afterwards with some of the cheaper providers.
> 
> What is worrying is that pretty much as soon as the $0.99 period ended, sales dropped back to the 10 a day average across all titles.
> 
> Page reads usually average around 5k a day across all titles but had been in decline early in the summer and were at around the 2.5-3k average level. I'm certainly not seeing the increase in page reads I would expect from a single bookbub, let alone 3 across three different titles in that period either.


Wow, I missed this the first time.

This is pretty clear evidence that there's a fraudulent read filter glitch.

A spike of that size with no corresponding read spike is crazy.

Bookbub promos are curated, so I find it difficult to believe that they'd send out a book in their newsletter that borrowers wouldn't care to read.

It looks overwhelmingly likely from this graph that you probably did have a read spike and the fraud filter incorrectly ate it.

Have you sent this chart to Amazon?


----------



## JRTomlin

PhoenixS said:


> I just did a percentage compare for our catalog on the .com store between Jan 1 through July 31 and Aug 1 through Sept 30. While there will be fluctuations and variations among single titles, of course, trending across a larger dataset over an extended amount of time will generally soften the effect of outliers. This is for a dataset that started with 73 titles on Jan 1 and ends with 79 titles on Sept 30.
> 
> Jan 1 - July 31
> ------------
> 28% of income via sales
> 72% via borrows
> 581 page reads to 1 sale
> 
> Aug 1 - Sept 30
> ------------
> 34.8% via sales
> 65.2% via reads
> 394 reads to 1 sale
> 
> Interestingly, while I've been estimating that we got about 30% fewer reads than expected during Aug and Sept, the page-reads-to-sales ratios actually bear this out. 394/581 = 67.8%. Or down 32.2%. Even with promo. And even with a Sept promo that was initially more successful than any of our other 2016 promos.
> 
> We also went from just over a quarter of our income coming from sales to just over a third.
> 
> Just adding some data points to the hive mind.
> 
> Our sales charts *look* fairly normal too. Except for the ones where there isn't any tail for some of the promo'd free books (the non-BB'd ones). Otherwise, without the historical context of how our catalog typically trends, folk here would look at our charts and declare they're following normal behavior.


Phoenix, I am baffled. How is a 7% from drop from 72% to 65% 1/3?


----------



## KelliWolfe

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> You don't do this?
> 
> I'm honestly a little baffled that people aren't keeping track of buy:read ratios and squeezing every out of inference out of their metrics that they can to figure out if their books are hitting the spot with readers or not.


Because most of our sample sizes are too small to generate meaningful results.


----------



## SomeoneElse

JRTomlin said:


> Phoenix, I am baffled. How is a 7% from drop from 72% to 65% 1/3?


I believe she calculated the page-reads-to-sales ratio was down 30%, whereas the 72% and 65% were percentages of income from page reads for each time period. 7% less income came from reads, but the page-read-to-sales shows how many more reads they would have expected for the number of sales they got, so is a better metric for overall drop (because we all know seasonality and promos can have a significant impact.)


----------



## PhoenixS

JRTomlin said:


> Phoenix, I am baffled. How is a 7% from drop from 72% to 65% 1/3?


Because we're looking at 2 sets of data percentages. When working with percentages, you can't just subtract one from the other.

The first is the easier one to explain. Sales to reads. I added up all the sales in each time period and divided that number into the number of reads. That gave me 581 pages per sale in the first period and 394 pages per sale in the second period. The difference between those is 32%. (581 x .32 = 186 ; 581 - 186 = 395)

The second set of percentages is income. So during the first period, for every $100, 28% of that -- or $28 -- came from sales. During the second period, $35 would have come from sales. That means sales increased 20% - from $28 to $35. Reads decreased from $72 to $65, or by 10%. So not only did reads not keep pace with the 20% increase in sales, they lost an additional 10%. Or a total loss of 30%.

Ah, LS May got here before me


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## JRTomlin

LSMay said:


> I believe she calculated the page-reads-to-sales ratio was down 30%, whereas the 72% and 65% were percentages of income from page reads for each time period. 7% less income came from reads, but the page-read-to-sales shows how many more reads they would have expected for the number of sales they got, so is a better metric for overall drop (because we all know seasonality and promos can have a significant impact.)


Ah, I disagree with using that metric but thanks for the explanation. 

I do not think you can count on the percentage of sales to page reads saying in the same range, especially without knowing whether sales are up or down. If I have a successful promotion and get a larger % of sales than usual, should I really complain?

ETA: "It was our second best income month in the past year..." and she's complaining? I think that shows what is wrong with that metric. I am more interested in income staying up than which income stream the income comes from.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Atunah said:


> Yeah, that is one reason. I have like over 3000 books in my library, I just borrow it. But most of all I wouldn't really notice if a book is free if I just look at KU books on my kindle or in the store. The price is kind of small and it looks exactly the same with the big nice borrow for free button right there for me. Since I don't subscribe to any ad sites for free books anymore, only time I know a book is free is in the emails I get from ereaderiq where I sign up for specific books or authors. Otherwise, I don't pay attention to that at all. Usually I add a KU book to my wishlists, so its not going to be free anymore anyway by the time I get to it.


This is interesting. From your perspective there is no advantage in making a book free.


----------



## PhoenixS

JRTomlin said:


> Ah, I disagree with using that metric but thanks for the explanation.
> 
> I do not think you can count on the percentage of sales to page reads saying in the same range, especially without knowing whether sales are up or down. If I have a successful promotion and get a larger % of sales than usual, should I really complain?
> 
> ETA: "It was our second best income month in the past year..." and she's complaining? I think that shows what is wrong with that metric. I am more interested in income staying up than which income stream the income comes from.


The metric does demonstrate a trend, however. More sales = more visibility = more borrows. These things have in the past always worked in tandem. They don't exist in a vacuum. Not in 2012 with the one Prime borrow per month. And not now.

As for complaining, think of it this way: If you were working at McDonald's for $10/hr and put in 50 hours last week and they paid you $500, which is more than your typical $400 for a 40-hr week, but the expectation was that you'd get time-and-a-half overtime pay for those extra 10 hours, would you take your paycheck quietly and celebrate that you made $100 more that week, or would you go to management and ask them where that missing extra $50 went?


----------



## CozyReads

PhoenixS said:


> As for complaining, think of it this way: If you were working at McDonald's for $10/hr and put in 50 hours last week and they paid you $500, which is more than your typical $400 for a 40-hr week, but the expectation was that you'd get time-and-a-half overtime pay for those extra 10 hours, would you take your paycheck quietly and celebrate that you made $100 more that week, or would you go to management and ask them where that missing extra $50 went?


THIS. So much.

I just wish there was a way to prove that Amazon is holding back our missing $50 y


----------



## Gertie Kindle

PhoenixS said:


> The metric does demonstrate a trend, however. More sales = more visibility = more borrows. These things have in the past always worked in tandem. They don't exist in a vacuum. Not in 2012 with the one Prime borrow per month. And not now.
> 
> As for complaining, think of it this way: If you were working at McDonald's for $10/hr and put in 50 hours last week and they paid you $500, which is more than your typical $400 for a 40-hr week, but the expectation was that you'd get time-and-a-half overtime pay for those extra 10 hours, would you take your paycheck quietly and celebrate that you made $100 more that week, or would you go to management and ask them where that missing extra $50 went?


I did that once and got fired. Not McD's.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I did that once and got fired. Not McD's.


*twirls Evil Villain mustache* That's a nice KDP account you've got there. Be a real shame if anything happened to it. Yep, a real shame...


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Something wonky is definitely going on. I had an ENT on October 7, gave away well over a thousand books, and not only has there been no sales bump on the next three books in the series, but pages read are in the toilet, too. Normally I get a decent bump, even when I'm running much smaller promos. 

Fishy. Fishy. Fishy.


----------



## sela

SevenDays said:


> Something wonky is definitely going on. I had an ENT on October 7, gave away well over a thousand books, and not only has there been no sales bump on the next three books in the series, but pages read are in the toilet, too. Normally I get a decent bump, even when I'm running much smaller promos.
> 
> Fishy. Fishy. Fishy.


Could it be that Amazon is trying to nullify the effects of promos from the small marketing companies (not Bookbub because Big Pub uses it) so that authors will all go into KU and use Amazon promotions instead? Just throwing it out there.

Could there be some little sub-routine in the algorithm that detects visitors from various websites or emails and then hides the rest of the books in the series for a week?

IF (incoming website = FreeBookMarketer.com) THEN (temporarily remove BOOK 2, 3, 4, 5 from also-boughts for one week).

Don't know if that kind of thing is possible but it would be scary if so.

/thin aluminium sheet head covering


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Sela said:


> Could it be that Amazon is trying to nullify the effects of promos from the small marketing companies (not Bookbub because Big Pub uses it) so that authors will all go into KU and use Amazon promotions instead? Just throwing it out there.
> 
> Could there be some little sub-routine in the algorithm that detects visitors from various websites or emails and then hides the rest of the books in the series for a week?
> 
> IF (incoming website = FreeBookMarketer.com) THEN (temporarily remove BOOK 2, 3, 4, 5 from also-boughts for one week).
> 
> Don't know if that kind of thing is possible but it would be scary if so.
> 
> /thin aluminium sheet head covering


At this point I honestly don't know what to think!


----------



## Graeme Reynolds

> Wow, I missed this the first time.
> 
> This is pretty clear evidence that there's a fraudulent read filter glitch.
> 
> A spike of that size with no corresponding read spike is crazy.
> 
> Bookbub promos are curated, so I find it difficult to believe that they'd send out a book in their newsletter that borrowers wouldn't care to read.
> 
> It looks overwhelmingly likely from this graph that you probably did have a read spike and the fraud filter incorrectly ate it.
> 
> Have you sent this chart to Amazon?


I dropped them a message asking them to look into it. No response yet. I'll keep you updated as to what they say.


----------



## dragontucker

SevenDays said:


> Something wonky is definitely going on. I had an ENT on October 7, gave away well over a thousand books, and not only has there been no sales bump on the next three books in the series, but pages read are in the toilet, too. Normally I get a decent bump, even when I'm running much smaller promos.
> 
> Fishy. Fishy. Fishy.


Maybe your readers have not gotten around to buying the next books yet? I guess you know "how quickly" they do so. But just thought I would bring that up.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

dragontucker said:


> Maybe your readers have not gotten around to buying the next books yet? I guess you know "how quickly" they do so. But just thought I would bring that up.


It's possible, but it doesn't fit the pattern of past promos--even much smaller ones where I only give away a couple of hundred or so books. Two weeks out and the opposite of a bump just doesn't jive at all.


----------



## Gator

Sela said:


> Could it be that Amazon is trying to nullify the effects of promos from the small marketing companies (not Bookbub because Big Pub uses it) so that authors will all go into KU and use Amazon promotions instead? Just throwing it out there.


You mean treat publishers "the way a cheetah would pursue a sickly gazelle," as Jeff Bezos put it? Nah. Not _again_.



> Could there be some little sub-routine in the algorithm that detects visitors from various websites or emails and then hides the rest of the books in the series for a week?
> 
> IF (incoming website = FreeBookMarketer.com) THEN (temporarily remove BOOK 2, 3, 4, 5 from also-boughts for one week).
> 
> Don't know if that kind of thing is possible but it would be scary if so.


Very easy to code it that way in the database stored procedure Amazon runs to determine each ASIN's most recent "also boughts."


----------



## Nope

I posted this 12 or so pages back, in the midst of the Page Flip...discussion:



> I think it's clear that something has changed in the Amazon ecosystem, even if we look no further than the bizarre and wildly inconsistent rankings that free promotions are generating. Also, it's pretty clear that the churn coefficient has vastly accelerated recently. I'm not sure the "why" of it matters.
> 
> My last promo was fairly decent, and should have generated reasonable visibility - it did not. My perma-free dropped in ranking in spite of increasing DLs (it was not the promo book, but affected, I think, because of the associated affiliated codes that came from the book that was promoted). I went from steady page reads to none. I understand visibility is fickle, the Zon algos more so, I understand that this may have been due to an organic depression in demand, but similar promotions have historically generated significant page reads - as compared to zero.
> 
> Again, something, or more likely somethings, has demonstrably changed, (it's really not a debate at this point), regardless of whether "your" sales/reads have been adversely affected or not. And, whatever it is, it's much deeper and pervasive than KU page reads.
> 
> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but things I think we know:
> 
> 1. This seems to be an Indie "problem", not a Zon imprint or a Big 5 "problem".
> 2. The bestsellers lists are increasingly and overwhelmingly populated by Zon imprints.
> 3. Free promotions are generating unpredictable and dramatically worse rankings compared to recent historic norms.
> 4. Rankings are churning much faster, eliminating the positive effect of sales/borrow spikes.
> 5. Page reads are down across the platform, but inconsistently so - and income is not a factor.
> 6. Sales are fluctuating as well, but again, not in a consistent or predictable manner.
> 7. There are "reports" that the Zon may have introduced fraud prevention into their current algos.
> 8. The Zon has an internal promotions platform. The Zon likes people using their stuff. The Zon does not like external manipulation.
> 9. The Zon has aggressively pursued gaining control of their review process.
> 10. The Zon is aggressively fighting scammers.
> 11. The Zon's re-calibration tool of choice is a chainsaw.
> 10. And whatever else I'm forgetting...
> 
> Therefore, my guess:
> 
> It seems to me that the differentiating factor between those affected and those that appear to be immune might be promotional activity and "box set, guilt by association" syndrome (see "social media fans are friends and family" initiative). Those writers with heavy promotions, especially if they use more "questionable" promotion sites or utilize extremely frequent promotions, especially for perma-frees, have been hit the hardest compared to writers that have not run a promotion recently, say since September. Bookbub "appears" to be an exception. I have no real data for this, just lots of coincidences in my sales and what I've seen reported by others, and of course, the stuff noted above. I think all of this may be the result of a combination of promoting Zon's own internal promotion platform, fraud prevention and improving organic visibility within the Zon ecosystem over third-party manipulation promotions.
> 
> For those unaffected, a few questions to think about:
> 
> 1. When was the last promo you ran?
> 2. Was it free or paid?
> 3. With which promo sites?
> 4. Are you in any box sets with authors that promote heavily?
> 5. Are you involved with any other cross-promotion with authors that promote heavily?
> 
> But, know what? If I'm wrong about promotional activity having anything to do with anything, then yippee! That's good to know as well, because...
> 
> Whatever is going on, it is the new normal. I seriously don't care why. (And I don't believe Page Flip has anything to do with rankings or visibility or promotions - sure, it may have something to do with under reported page reads, but that could also be a result, at least in part, of people borrowing your book less because they're not seeing it anymore.) The real question is, how do we market and promote our books to generate positive results in the here and now, because the old strategies (this summer) don't appear to work anymore.


So, unless you're a Bookbub favorite, business as usual appears to have changed rather dramatically over the last six weeks. So what does that mean for promotions moving forward?


----------



## KelliWolfe

Sela said:


> Could it be that Amazon is trying to nullify the effects of promos from the small marketing companies (not Bookbub because Big Pub uses it) so that authors will all go into KU and use Amazon promotions instead? Just throwing it out there.
> 
> Could there be some little sub-routine in the algorithm that detects visitors from various websites or emails and then hides the rest of the books in the series for a week?
> 
> IF (incoming website = FreeBookMarketer.com) THEN (temporarily remove BOOK 2, 3, 4, 5 from also-boughts for one week).
> 
> Don't know if that kind of thing is possible but it would be scary if so.
> 
> /thin aluminium sheet head covering


I ran a promo on one of my free-first-in-series on Oct 14/15. My free downloads tripled on the 14/15/16, and starting on the 15th there was a distinct uptick in sales that has persisted. It behaved very much like all the other promos I've run for the last year. None of these books are enrolled in Select, though. I wonder if that could account for the difference?


----------



## sela

What Writes at Midnight said:


> I dunno...one of Amazon's overarching operating principles has always been DRIVE TRAFFIC to Amazon. Their affiliate program, for example, was a huge factor in their success. Their content-rich website is that way because it gives people plenty of reason to be on the site. It'd be weird if they were deliberately discouraging authors from getting traffic to their site.
> 
> UNLESS they are working with data that says freebie-downloaders are NOT shoppers. That's doubtful, though - it's more likely to be the opposite - that freebie downloaders love product, and buy whatever they can afford. But even if that's the case, why then keep allowing freebies and hyping giveaways?
> 
> I think it has to be something else going on.


When I first started in KDPS, I would run a free promo for a week for a book and then when it went back to paid, the rank would stay high for a while and there would be a real boost in sales of that book after. From what I understand, Amazon has tweaked its algorithms to change that. Now, and correct me if I'm wrong, your book goes back to where it was before the promo almost immediately. The free run does not help the rank of the book itself after the price changes back. So, clearly Amazon can and does tweak algorithms to affect visibility of books. It doesn't really like free books, even though they clearly do help sell follow-on books in the rest of the series or else they would allow authors to set books to free as part of the program -- instead of the "price match" gamble.

I agree that Amazon does want to drive traffic to its site. It's goal is to sell books, and use them to sell everything else. HOWEVER, it also wants to control how people consume books. It wants to dominate. You can't use Amazon ads unless you're in KU. You can only give books away free via price match, at Amazon's whim, or if you are in KU. You only get 70% in some markets if your books are in KU.

One store to rule them all, one store to find them, one store to bring them all and in the darkness bind them in the land of ...

Sorry. Forgot myself there for a minute.


----------



## TromboneAl

Sela said:


> When I first started in KDPS, I would run a free promo for a week for a book and then when it went back to paid, the rank would stay high for a while and there would be a real boost in sales of that book after. From what I understand, Amazon has tweaked its algorithms to change that. Now, and correct me if I'm wrong, your book goes back to where it was before the promo almost immediately. The free run does not help the rank of the book itself after the price changes back.


Yes. From my understanding, at one point a free download counted as a tenth of a sale. They then changed it such that a free download does not affect ranking.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Sela said:


> One store to rule them all, one store to find them, one store to bring them all and in the darkness bind them in the land of ...


In the land of Bezos where the sales reps lie...


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## Colin

KelliWolfe said:


> In the land of Bezos where the sales reps lie...


Where page reads are not counted in the blink of an eye...


----------



## sela

PhoenixS said:


> Sela, if you missed this comment, it discusses Select and free-to-paid ranks as they've been since KU2 (maybe KU1), which is a little different from your understanding, I believe. It's why it -- literally -- pays to scam books up the free list.
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242225.msg3384903.html#msg3384903


Yeah. I wasn't talking about current KU but that big change that took place back in the day. I was only using that as an example of how Amazon can adjust the impact of various promos on visibility post-promo. If they can do that, and if it's in their interest to have more authors use Amazon-centric promos instead of paying other external promo sites, it may be in their long-term interest to do so.

Too many free books given away from sites with low reach? And sites and books that have low sell-through? Make those promos less appealing and eventually, people will stop using them and turn to Amazon's programs instead.

The little promo sites have small reach compared to Bookbub or Amazon's own promotions, so that may be a way to dis-incentivize these smaller promo sites with small mailing lists and results.

I'm not saying Amazon is doing this. We have evidence that something is going on, but due to the way things go with Amazon, we have no idea what, when, where and how. We are left to speculate. We have to speculate. We have to understand what the current tweak is so we can adapt and adjust our business to the new conditions and playing field.


----------



## Nothing To See

*Regular (non page flip mode) doesn't appear to be registering page reads.*

I've tested this personally on three books today (using the Kindle Voyage and iphone app). If you are in REGULAR READING MODE (i.e., not page flip) and you borrow a KU book and read all the way to the end and *then* decide to go back to any earlier place in the book, it will only register that you read to that earlier place.

Let's say I read a 500-page book in KU. I'm reading in regular mode (*not Page Flip*), the way I always do. I get to the end, and decide I'm going to go re-read a favorite part. Where was my favorite part, again? Oh, back on page 10. Ok, I go back to page 10. Then I read to page 15 and close my book.

The author just got paid for 15 pages, even though I read the whole book.

Please, test this for yourselves.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Nothing To See said:


> *Regular (non page flip mode) doesn't appear to be registering page reads.*
> 
> I've tested this personally on three books today (using the Kindle Voyage and iphone app). If you are in REGULAR READING MODE (i.e., not page flip) and you borrow a KU book and read all the way to the end and *then* decide to go back to any earlier place in the book, it will only register that you read to that earlier place.
> 
> Let's say I read a 500-page book in KU. I'm reading in regular mode (*not Page Flip*), the way I always do. I get to the end, and decide I'm going to go re-read a favorite part. Where was my favorite part, again? Oh, back on page 10. Ok, I go back to page 10. Then I read to page 15 and close my book.
> 
> The author just got paid for 15 pages, even though I read the whole book.
> 
> Please, test this for yourselves.


Yes! I keep hearing this on other boards. This is a major issue especially if you have a pretty cover!

If they scroll back to read anything you don't get credit! That's insane. They have to fix this!


----------



## dragontucker

Well, I am about to release my book. Should have it out tomorrow or the next day. I am a bit scared this problem is gonna make my launch worthless. But.....doesn't seem like it's getting fixed anytime soon. Or...maybe it's already fixed? LOL


----------



## NotAPenguin

It's definitely not fixed. And it's not going to get fixed unless we insist on it and we spell it out really clearly.


----------



## Going Incognito

Boyd said:


> This is the thread that never ends... yes KU goes on and on my friends... Some people started using it, not knowing what it was... and they'll continue using it forever, just because... This is the thread that never ends... yes KU goes on and on my friends... Some people started using it, not knowing what it was... and they'll continue using it forever, just because... This is the thread that never ends... yes KU goes on and on my friends... Some people started using it, not knowing what it was... and they'll continue using it forever, just because...
> 
> sang to the tune of:


I want some of what you're having.


----------



## Anarchist

Boyd said:


> This is the thread that never ends... yes KU goes on and on my friends... Some people started using it, not knowing what it was... and they'll continue using it forever, just because... This is the thread that never ends... yes KU goes on and on my friends... Some people started using it, not knowing what it was... and they'll continue using it forever, just because... This is the thread that never ends... yes KU goes on and on my friends... Some people started using it, not knowing what it was... and they'll continue using it forever, just because...
> 
> sang to the tune of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Lyrics*:
> 
> I don't know where I'm goin'
> But I sure know where I've been
> Hanging on the promises in songs of yesterday
> An' I've made up my mind, I ain't wasting no more time
> Here I go again, here I go again
> 
> Tho' I keep searching for an answer
> I never seem to find what I'm looking for
> Oh Lord, I pray you give me strength to carry on
> 'Cause I know what it means to walk along the lonely street of dreams
> 
> Here I go again on my own
> Goin' down the only road I've ever known
> Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
> An' I've made up my mind, I ain't wasting no more time
> 
> Just another heart in need of rescue
> Waiting on love's sweet charity
> An' I'm gonna hold on for the rest of my days
> 'Cause I know what it means to walk along the lonely street of dreams
> 
> And here I go again on my own
> Goin' down the only road I've ever known
> Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
> An' I've made up my mind, I ain't wasting no more time
> But here I go again, here I go again,
> Here I go again, here I go
> 
> 'Cause I know what it means to walk along the lonely street of dreams
> Here I go again on my own
> Goin' down the only road I've ever known
> Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
> An' I've made up my mind, I ain't wasting no more time
> Here I go again on my own
> Goin' down the only road I've ever known
> Like a drifter I was born to walk alone
> 'Cause I know what it means to walk along the lonely street of dreams
> 
> Here I go again on my own
> Goin' down the only road I've ever known
> Like a drifter I was born to walk alone


----------



## jaehaerys

Everything is Amazon. Everything is cool when you're part of their team.


----------



## SandraMiller

Boyd said:


> This is the thread that never ends... yes KU goes on and on my friends... Some people started using it, not knowing what it was... and they'll continue using it forever, just because... This is the thread that never ends... yes KU goes on and on my friends... Some people started using it, not knowing what it was... and they'll continue using it forever, just because... This is the thread that never ends... yes KU goes on and on my friends... Some people started using it, not knowing what it was... and they'll continue using it forever, just because...


I think I love you. I thought I was the only one in the world who remembered that song 

For real though...it seems like the hits just keep coming. I hope they get this all fixed


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

SandraMiller said:


> I think I love you. I thought I was the only one in the world who remembered that song


You're not the only one! I sing it with my four-year-old. She even has a Lamb Chop handpuppet. 

(I have to wear Lamb Chop and do knock-knock jokes.)


----------



## SandraMiller

SevenDays said:


> You're not the only one! I sing it with my four-year-old. She even has a Lamb Chop handpuppet.
> 
> (I have to wear Lamb Chop and do knock-knock jokes.)


Oh, that's awesome! I tried to get my kids hooked on Lamb Chop, but they never liked Shari Lewis as much as I did. In fairness, that's a high bar to clear.

</threadjack>


----------



## HillOnLong

Nothing To See said:


> *Regular (non page flip mode) doesn't appear to be registering page reads.*
> 
> I've tested this personally on three books today (using the Kindle Voyage and iphone app). If you are in REGULAR READING MODE (i.e., not page flip) and you borrow a KU book and read all the way to the end and *then* decide to go back to any earlier place in the book, it will only register that you read to that earlier place.
> 
> Let's say I read a 500-page book in KU. I'm reading in regular mode (*not Page Flip*), the way I always do. I get to the end, and decide I'm going to go re-read a favorite part. Where was my favorite part, again? Oh, back on page 10. Ok, I go back to page 10. Then I read to page 15 and close my book.
> 
> The author just got paid for 15 pages, even though I read the whole book.
> 
> Please, test this for yourselves.


Chiming in to confirm that this appears to be true. Amazon only credits you 1 page read if the reader returns to start after finishing reading the entire story first (no page flip was used).


----------



## Hope

C.S. Longhill said:


> Chiming in to confirm that this appears to be true. Amazon only credits you 1 page read if the reader returns to start after finishing reading the entire story first (no page flip was used).


I'm getting more of the one page reads than I ever have before. Around 2 per day-I rarely got them before. I'm a low volume seller.


----------



## Guest

Just spent the last 4 hours reading all 57 pages of this thread. Mind blown. I think I looked at this when it first appeared but I dismissed it as ('Amazon are having problems, but I guess they'll fix them without me getting all worried over nothing').

The stuff in this thread is just absolutely staggering. How Amazon are in deniability is insane. What do they think we're idiots? It seems that in this KU pay per page system they just report whatever they feel like to authors. Not just skimming off the top in these reported cases, but wiping out the vast majority of page reads in their entirety. Did they think we wouldn't notice? My first thought is they want us out of the KU program (or they want certain genres out of the program) but if that's the case what a disgraceful (and probably illegal) way to go about it. 

I've been a bit quiet on the book releasing front of late, but I put something out 24 hours ago and it has 8 page reads. I know first days are always delayed or something but that is just ridiculous. I was reading one person posting about a boxset they put out that had like 300 sales a day and only 2 - 3000 reads a day - I mean, that is theft. It's the end of KU at the very least. 

I guess I'll wait around another day or so to see if they report the page reads I'm expecting, and if they don't, I'll pull it from select as I'm still in the get out window. 

Very messed up. I mean, if people are seeing 30 - 90 percent drop offs, there's got to be a mass exodus from KU. If people are borrowing your book and you're not getting paid for it, it's basically giving your book away for free. I'd love to know the true extent of who is being affected by this and if it's still ongoing.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Guest

Atlantisatheart said:


> It is definitely still ongoing.
> 
> I had a boxset to put out last week and didn't put it into KU and that's obviously selling better than expected because people can't download it.
> 
> I also had a time sensitive (Halloween) book from my most popular series that needed to go out and I couldn't bring myself not to put it in KU (because of my readers expectations of finding it there) and that is selling as normal but the page reads are truly awful, probably down about 60% from what would be expected on a 300+ page read.


Thanks for the info. Sigh.

I get how readers will be revolting against some authors for pulling out of KU (I know my readerbase is probably 80 - 90 percent borrowers, at least I knew back in KU1) but they have to understand that the KU program is currently broken and Amazon is refusing to do anything about it. No one can survive on free.


----------



## CassieL

ShaneJeffery said:


> I've been a bit quiet on the book releasing front of late, but I put something out 24 hours ago and it has 8 page reads.


I have 8 page reads this morning as well after being in the 1,000 pages per day range the last few days.

But that's been my type of experience with the Zon for years. I'll sell 7 or 8 copies of a book for three days straight and then it just goes to zero. I'll have climbing borrows that look like the book is catching on and then it just dies like someone turned off a switch. Only reason I'm chiming in here now is because I found the fact that we both had 8 page reads (instead of 1 or 2) bizarrely coincidental.


----------



## Guest

Cassie Leigh said:


> I have 8 page reads this morning as well after being in the 1,000 pages per day range the last few days.
> 
> But that's been my type of experience with the Zon for years. I'll sell 7 or 8 copies of a book for three days straight and then it just goes to zero. I'll have climbing borrows that look like the book is catching on and then it just dies like someone turned off a switch. Only reason I'm chiming in here now is because I found the fact that we both had 8 page reads (instead of 1 or 2) bizarrely coincidental.


My new book (a novel) has been live for 26 hours. I got the 8 page reads somewhere in the first 12 hours. And that's it. No more updates. There's no way no one has borrowed it and not reading it. So the report is either delayed or false. If I don't see movement in the next 24 hours then I'll have all the proof I need to exit the program. The only thing that would keep me in in these circumstances would be assurances from Amazon that they're working on fixing the problem and we'll be backpayed. But according to this thread, they wont' even admit a problem exists except in the minimalist and vaguest terms. Which means Amazon can't be trusted with anything, ever. This is total corruption.


----------



## Guest

Okay so I was looking through the top Paranormal Romance authors just now (that's my genre), and I can't see that anyone's left KU. What does that mean? Are they holding out to see what happens, or are they not being affected by this? This question is relevant because the reason some of us are in KU in the first place is we can't compete against the top authors because they're all in KU and borrows weigh them down in the charts. I don't understand why they would keep their books in KU if they were seeing the discrepancies reported here.


----------



## Nothing To See

mckat said:


> They might have already opted out and are just waiting for their terms to expire.


That's exactly it. I've unchecked all of my backlist but they don't expire until Nov/Dec.


----------



## crow.bar.beer

The stupidest thing about all of this is how* easy *it is to program the Kindle software to keep a log of each page that has been displayed. It's obvious now that Amazon has *never* put in place a way to _actually_ track individual pages read, only a lot of half-measures that help them "surmise" how much is being read.

Wow. IMO, there's a middle manager somewhere in that corporation that should be fired, because this is playing fast and loose with vendor payouts in a grossly obscene and incompetent way. 

It's the equivalent of an electricity company not installing a meter, but hiring someone to pass by the house at random times to see when the lights were and weren't off. Congratulations, Amazon, you're a stalwart of technological innovation.


----------



## Guest

mckat said:


> They might have already opted out and are just waiting for their terms to expire.


Then why are their latest releases this month in KU?


----------



## Guest

Boyd said:


> I don't know if this is the norm for you, but it is for me. My page reads on a new release really don't show up in any significant numbers till about the 48 hour mark.


I know in the past there's been delays. I'd only be a little concerned if I hadn't read this thread. I'm going to hold off pulling out for another day at least.


----------



## Guest

mckat said:


> I can't speak for everyone, but some have built a large reader base with KU and transitioning from KU only to wide is something that has to be done gradually. With a catalog of over 70 titles, going wide isn't an overnight thing. Current readers are used to KU with XYZ series and don't understand/necessarily care about the issues authors face. They care about the books. Going "sorry, no more KU" overnight can be a jarring and potentially damaging move. Do I like it? No. Am I going to make the transition in a way that limits the backlash as much possible? Yes.


That is a possibility. But putting new titles into KU that are going to make 40 percent or less than what they would normally due to a faulty system Amazon have washed their hands of is hard to believe. It could be though that I'm just looking at the wrong sample of authors. I wish I knew whether they're affected and just taking it or if they're not affected. I guess it doesn't matter though to what I'll do. If amazon aren't going to pay me for page reads then the books need to come out (well, it's the new releases that are the most affected). It would be nice though to see some indication that the people at the top making the necessary moves in order to fight this. KU has massively devalued books for readers, but if no one was in KU people would be more willing to buy again. In theory.


----------



## Guest

RBN said:


> Possibly because they have business plans with promotions already scheduled months in advance and can't make changes overnight.


KU promotions? What are they again?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,243034.0.html

There is a major technical error with Kindles and the apps that's probably causing most, if not all of this problem.

Kindles are not recording reads properly, so we're not getting paid for content that users have actually read. (No pageflip)

Authors need to contact Amazon, by going straight to the top- [email protected]

This problem is bigger than KDP, although it would be nice to see them go to bat for us and help get it fixed.

Here's the long version:



Acrocanthosaurus said:


> I tested this, and it is true. _We are straight up not being paid for pages even though users have read them._
> 
> If a user reads to the end of a book, then backtracks within the book file, the system assigns your reads based on where they were when they closed the file, effectively "unreading" everything past that point even if they've seen it.
> 
> This graph is from my test book:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See how it reports one page read?
> 
> Another person borrowed the book. This is what she did:
> 
> 1. Opened the book.
> 2. Read to the end, without opening page flip mode.
> 3. Flipped back to the first page, without opening page flip mode.
> 
> One read was recorded.
> 
> I want to make this 100% clear:
> 
> If a user reads to the end of a book file and then flips back, their stopping point will be marked as the percentage of the book the user read and you will not be paid for any pages read beyond that point even if the user actually read them.
> 
> The person who tested this for me read the book word for word. She did not skim or flip through at an abnormally fast rate.
> 
> This is not page flip. *We are straight up not being paid for pages actually being read. *
> 
> I suggest that anyone who isn't convinced try this themselves. Upload a book and follow those steps.
> 
> Here is a quick bit of analysis:
> 
> There is actually no such thing as a "page" in the normal sense in the KENPC system. When your KENPC is generated, the system does not somehow know which words are on specific, numbered pages.
> 
> Instead, KENPC is a way to standardize a percentage-based payment system for reading activity in a book.
> 
> Your book is divided into chunks of about 180 words.
> 
> Let's look at an example:
> 
> I write a 1800 word short story and uploaded it to KDP.
> 
> KDP scans it and assigns it a total value of 18 KENP.
> 
> Someone downloads, and reads 1,543 words of the story and stops without finishing.
> 
> That's 85.7% of the file.
> 
> Percentage of file read x total length in KENP:
> 
> .857x18 = 15.43 KENP read
> 
> Round down. I get 15 KENP.
> 
> This is calculated based on the furthest point the user reaches, as reported to Amazon by the device when it synchs.
> 
> The problem here is that Kindles are now reporting back to Amazon with the *final location viewed* rather than the *final location reached*.
> 
> In other words: It used to measure how far I walked along a path. Now it measures where I stop moving, even if I reached the end of the road and walked back.
> 
> So if I walk all the way to the end of the path and turn around, then sit on a chair halfway back, Amazon treats it as if I never passed the chair and ignores my steps from that point to the actual end.
> 
> This is also conclusive evidence that Amazon is not technically capable of tracking individual pages. (or, at least, the system isn't doing it now)
> 
> Your Kindle does not know if you skipped pages. It does not know if you have read a page before in another book.
> 
> KENP are not pages like pages of a book- they're a standardized unit that KDP uses to generate total value of one complete read-through of your book. They do not exist in the traditional sense of a page which is a set of specific words that appear in a set location within a book.





Acrocanthosaurus said:


> [email protected]
> 
> On a related note:
> 
> This is why KDP has been insisting in their replies that everything looks normal, business team has audited, etc.
> 
> To them it does look normal. They're checking what the Kindles have reported and seeing the same thing we see. I honestly think they are telling the truth there.
> 
> The problem is in the pipeline before reads are recorded. They simply go missing.
> 
> Here's an analogy:
> 
> A reader sends you a bunch of letters. The mailman loses half of them before they're postmarked. You, expecting these letters, ask the post office where the rest of them are. The post office checks which letters were postmarked and tells you that they've all been delivered.
> 
> They're wrong, but they don't know it because no record of the missing letters was ever made.
> 
> Same thing here. To KDP everything looks normal. Nothing appears to be missing because it was never there in a way they can see in the first place. The reads are not being recorded..
> 
> Amazon needs to be made aware, at the highest levels, that Kindles arent't reporting the data correctly and it needs to be fixed. KDP needs to go to bat for us on this and get the correct department to address this ASAP.


----------



## RandomThings

Been reading this super long thread and decided to add my details to the mix. Now, while I've been selling some books, it's been between 1000 - 1500 dollars a month. Tiny compared to some of you folk, but it has been fairly consistent for a year or more. Until three days ago, it'd been nearly two years since I'd had a day without at least a single sale. 

I have a series, first book is permafree and the rest are in KU. Everything was fine until september, when the sales dropped by a little more than half. Then again for October (so far.) leading to my very first days without a single sale. 

Still getting reasonably consistent KU reads according to the graph, but looking in the actual sales data on bookreport, I've had a number of 1 page reads on odd books in the series. Normally if someone has bought the second book, they go on to read the others. 

Add to this, I put a bundle together to offer a number of books at reduced price and had one sale. One full KU read (or lots of part reads admittedly) but whenever I've bundled before, they've sold well. 

A promo must have fired up because I had hundreds of free downloads, then 1 sale the next day, then 20 sales, then 0 for two days. 

Speaking of those two days of zeros. According to my sales graph, that's what happened. According to bookreport only one of those days have zero sales. Now it could just be that I'm reaching the natural end of my genres readers, but, the daily downloads have been consistent for well over a year. Some movement up and down per day, but on average a consistent number each month and same with read through. For Sept / Oct I'm getting the same number of permafree downloads but none of the read though. 

At the start of Nov, I have a ENT promo scheduled. Once that has done, I am tempted to lose the permafree for a bit and see what happens. If, as others have reported, it helps with sales.


----------



## KelliWolfe

My money says that this is the fraud detection scheme Amazon implemented to solve the "link to the back of the book" problem.

Publisher (scammer or not) puts a hyperlink on the front page that takes the reader to the back of the book, expecting to be credited for page reads for the whole book. 

The reader clicks on the link and goes to the back of the book, and then navigates back to the front of the book where the story actually starts.

Amazon's new system of recording page reads from "last position navigated to" was obviously implemented to defeat this pattern of behavior.

Now, if they had just implemented a system that actually recorded page reads in the first place as they assured us that they were able to do when KU 2.0 was rolled out, none of this would be happening.


----------



## HillOnLong

ShaneJeffery said:


> That is a possibility. But putting new titles into KU that are going to make 40 percent or less than what they would normally due to a faulty system Amazon have washed their hands of is hard to believe. It could be though that I'm just looking at the wrong sample of authors. I wish I knew whether they're affected and just taking it or if they're not affected. I guess it doesn't matter though to what I'll do. If amazon aren't going to pay me for page reads then the books need to come out (well, it's the new releases that are the most affected). It would be nice though to see some indication that the people at the top making the necessary moves in order to fight this. KU has massively devalued books for readers, but if no one was in KU people would be more willing to buy again. In theory.


There are also authors who believe it's just a mistake and that Amazon will fix it and things will go back to normal after that. If that ends up happening then putting new releases into KU is still the option that makes them the most money. (Not to mention that the pie with wide releases just isn't big enough for romance authors who were making +$20k a month in Amazon.)


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

KelliWolfe said:


> My money says that this is the fraud detection scheme Amazon implemented to solve the "link to the back of the book" problem.
> 
> Publisher (scammer or not) puts a hyperlink on the front page that takes the reader to the back of the book, expecting to be credited for page reads for the whole book.
> 
> The reader clicks on the link and goes to the back of the book, and then navigates back to the front of the book where the story actually starts.
> 
> Amazon's new system of recording page reads from "last position navigated to" was obviously implemented to defeat this pattern of behavior.
> 
> Now, if they had just implemented a system that actually recorded page reads in the first place as they assured us that they were able to do when KU 2.0 was rolled out, none of this would be happening.


This is an interesting theory and quite possible, but they unleashed bots months ago to handle the link problem and, as far as I can tell, it worked because people had to get rid of the links. That was long before September. In fact, that was in roughly April or so, I believe (it might've been March).
Whatever is happening here is only affecting some people. It's not affecting everyone. Given all the groups I'm in I would say that less than 1/4 of authors are being affected. Yes, I know people are going to say that "everyone I know is losing money," but given the fact that there was only a six percent differential from August to September (when you factor in the extra day) that's hardly possible.
There either has to be a common theme or something else going on. If it were PageFlip and this new problem then everyone would be affected at the same percentage. That's clearly not the case, so it has to be something else.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I think there is a fraud filter but this (the lost reads from readers paging back in a book) is a separate issue.

It wouldn't surprise me if KDP isn't aware of the problem. It's not under their control or purview. Hence the need to inform them.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Amanda M. Lee said:


> There either has to be a common theme or something else going on. If it were PageFlip and this new problem then everyone would be affected at the same percentage. That's clearly not the case, so it has to be something else.


I agree. Just like page flip alone wasn't enough to account for all the problems being reported, neither is this. The thing is that we have no idea what Amazon has done or what they might have broken. It's quite possible that people are going to stumble across more issues like this as they continue testing to find the problem.


----------



## What Writes at Midnight

Amanda M. Lee said:


> If it were PageFlip and this new problem then everyone would be affected at the same percentage. That's clearly not the case, so it has to be something else.


Wait, don't you think sample size would make a difference?

Like, say ten people enter a lottery. Nine people buy 1 ticket each and the tenth buys 50. The odds of having a winning ticket are three in ten. The tenth would be all like, "Hey, consistently, people will win 15 times!" While three of the other nine are all like, "I won! It really can happen!" and the other six are all like, "There's no point to this."


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

What Writes at Midnight said:


> Wait, don't you think sample size would make a difference?
> 
> Like, say ten people enter a lottery. Nine people buy 1 ticket each and the tenth buys 50. The odds of having a winning ticket are three in ten. The tenth would be all like, "Hey, consistently, people will win 15 times!" While three of the other nine are all like, "I won! It really can happen!" and the other six are all like, "There's no point to this."


Except people making $100,000 a month are reporting the same issues as people who make $100 a month. It's not ALL people making $100,000 a month, though. It's not ALL people making $100 a month. That's the point. If it was something that affects everyone -- like PageFlip or this new discovery -- then everyone should be seeing the same relative issue and that's not the case.


----------



## What Writes at Midnight

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Except people making $100,000 a month are reporting the same issues as people who make $100 a month. It's not ALL people making $100,000 a month, though. It's not ALL people making $100 a month. That's the point. If it was something that affects everyone -- like PageFlip or this new discovery -- then everyone should be seeing the same relative issue and that's not the case.


Hmm. I don't see this. What I see is that there's a threshold at which it's noticed. Below this threshold, it will look random. Above it, it will look consistent. We don't know where this threshold is and it might be a moving target.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

We're not talking about page flip now, this is separate. 

Also, it affects everyone. It will impact people differently but everyone is losing page reads because of this.


----------



## writemore

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Also, it affects everyone. It will impact people differently but everyone is losing page reads because of this.


I agree with you. I think it's happening to everyone but some notice more than others for whatever reason - catalog size, genre, the behavior of their readers, etc.


----------



## CLStone

I was anticipating this getting resolved rather quickly, assuming Amazon would figure out the problem and fix and back to normal.

I'd wanted to release a little miniseries via KU in November, but I'm second guessing that plan at the moment.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Tin foil hat time! But yesterday's tinfoil seems to be tomorrow's headlines, these days.

How do we know that the page reads actually only dropped 8% from August to September? We already know that Amazon cannot actually count pages read. We know that they've had massive problems with scammers, up to and including them getting All Stars bonuses. We know that Amazon sets the KU pot to whatever they want to make the payout come out to whatever they want it to be. And we know that they've consistently lied to us about issues regarding KU since at least the KU 2.0 switchover. 

So how do we know they're not making up the page read numbers - to make the program look better or more attractive, to cover up the scamming, or simply because they can't get realistic numbers out of their system? This would explain why we could see both an insignificant drop in the reported numbers while large numbers of writers are seeing massive page read drops.

See, Amanda keeps bringing up a very relevant point. Either there was only an 8% drop in page reads in September, which is well withing normal monthly variations and means that all of these reports of page reads not being counted on a massive scale are *vastly* overblown, or else that 8% drop Amazon reported isn't true.

Can't have it both ways.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> We're not talking about page flip now, this is separate.
> 
> Also, it affects everyone. It will impact people differently but everyone is losing page reads because of this.


I honestly don't believe it's affecting me. I've gone over all of my books, I've compared releases, I've compared the time frame each year, and I'm exactly where I should be. I know quite a few other authors who aren't affected either and they all watch their numbers closely.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

KelliWolfe said:


> Tin foil hat time! But yesterday's tinfoil seems to be tomorrow's headlines, these days.
> 
> How do we know that the page reads actually only dropped 8% from August to September? We already know that Amazon cannot actually count pages read. We know that they've had massive problems with scammers, up to and including them getting All Stars bonuses. We know that Amazon sets the KU pot to whatever they want to make the payout come out to whatever they want it to be. And we know that they've consistently lied to us about issues regarding KU since at least the KU 2.0 switchover.
> 
> So how do we know they're not making up the page read numbers - to make the program look better or more attractive, to cover up the scamming, or simply because they can't get realistic numbers out of their system? This would explain why we could see both an insignificant drop in the reported numbers while large numbers of writers are seeing massive page read drops.
> 
> See, Amanda keeps bringing up a very relevant point. Either there was only an 8% drop in page reads in September, which is well withing normal monthly variations and means that all of these reports of page reads not being counted on a massive scale are *vastly* overblown, or else that 8% drop Amazon reported isn't true.
> 
> Can't have it both ways.


If that were the case Amazon would do a better job adjusting the page payout. When you figure in one fewer day in September compared to August, there's only a roughly 6 percent change. Amazon has auditors. Do you really think they would risk their entire business model for what is a drop in the bucket to them?


----------



## H.C.

Hmm so I had been close to zero for the last three days and I went in and added a meaningless keyword and within the hour I had 365 page reads! This is from someone who has only had that kind of page read maybe 8 times in the last 30 days.


----------



## Sarah Shaw

KelliWolfe said:


> Tin foil hat time! But yesterday's tinfoil seems to be tomorrow's headlines, these days.
> 
> How do we know that the page reads actually only dropped 8% from August to September? We already know that Amazon cannot actually count pages read. We know that they've had massive problems with scammers, up to and including them getting All Stars bonuses. We know that Amazon sets the KU pot to whatever they want to make the payout come out to whatever they want it to be. And we know that they've consistently lied to us about issues regarding KU since at least the KU 2.0 switchover.
> 
> So how do we know they're not making up the page read numbers - to make the program look better or more attractive, to cover up the scamming, or simply because they can't get realistic numbers out of their system? This would explain why we could see both an insignificant drop in the reported numbers while large numbers of writers are seeing massive page read drops.
> 
> See, Amanda keeps bringing up a very relevant point. Either there was only an 8% drop in page reads in September, which is well withing normal monthly variations and means that all of these reports of page reads not being counted on a massive scale are *vastly* overblown, or else that 8% drop Amazon reported isn't true.
> 
> Can't have it both ways.


Of course you can- if, as people are reporting, many people are not affected at all, some are affected mildly and some are affected massively. This is in line with what people are saying. That could easily result in the overall drop in page reads being 8%. What this all boils down to is that we don't have the data to draw any kind of conclusion here. We don't know how many people are affected and we don't know what's causing the problem.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Herefortheride said:


> Hmm so I had been close to zero for the last three days and I went in and added a meaningless keyword and within the hour I had 365 page reads! This is from someone who has only had that kind of page read maybe 8 times in the last 30 days.


Yeah, it takes more than an hour for keyword changes to take affect. It sounds as if you had one reader who read your entire book offline and then synced his Kindle and you got credit for everything all at once. I doubt very much it had anything to do with you changing a keyword.


----------



## Error404

Amanda M. Lee said:


> This is an interesting theory and quite possible, but they unleashed bots months ago to handle the link problem and, as far as I can tell, it worked because people had to get rid of the links. That was long before September. In fact, that was in roughly April or so, I believe (it might've been March).
> Whatever is happening here is only affecting some people. It's not affecting everyone. Given all the groups I'm in I would say that less than 1/4 of authors are being affected. Yes, I know people are going to say that "everyone I know is losing money," but given the fact that there was only a six percent differential from August to September (when you factor in the extra day) that's hardly possible.
> There either has to be a common theme or something else going on. If it were PageFlip and this new problem then everyone would be affected at the same percentage. That's clearly not the case, so it has to be something else.


You've commented a lot on these issues and posted a graph of your Amazon dashboard, but I'm curious: have you've tried to replicate the PageFlip and not-counting-pages errors on your books? I'm eager to know if you're affected by these errors or if your books/account are somehow immune (which may lead to a new error being discovered). Go for the gold standard and give it a test! We'll wait here


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Error404 said:


> You've commented a lot on these issues and posted a graph of your Amazon dashboard, but I'm curious: have you've tried to replicate the PageFlip and not-counting-pages errors on your books? I'm eager to know if you're affected by these errors or if your books/account are somehow immune (which may lead to a new error being discovered). Go for the gold standard and give it a test! We'll wait here


Yeah, I'm writing and cleaning for a Halloween party. I don't really have time for that. Plus, I have no books I could test on. They all update pages every hour.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Amanda M. Lee said:


> If that were the case Amazon would do a better job adjusting the page payout. When you figure in one fewer day in September compared to August, there's only a roughly 6 percent change. Amazon has auditors. Do you really think they would risk their entire business model for what is a drop in the bucket to them?


All the tradpub corporations have auditors, too, yet it is a time-honored tradition with them to screw authors out of their royalties using all kinds of creative accounting techniques. Look at the nonsense that Harlequin got caught pulling a couple of years back, and yet they're still in business and writers still flock to them.

Wells Fargo has auditors, and look at what they got caught doing. Yet they're still in business and their customers haven't abandoned them en masse.

But Occam's Razor says that you're right, and this is a tempest in a teapot. The simplest solution is that there is a fairly small number of people being affected to any large degree, but the vast majority aren't being impacted at all, or if they are then the effect is too small to be noticed in the ordinary noise of the data.


----------



## Error404

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Yeah, I'm writing and cleaning for a Halloween party. I don't really have time for that. Plus, I have no books I could test on. They all update pages every hour.


I've read these threads, too, and I know people upload test books and use those to see the page counts. Besides, this thread is older than your Halloween party cleaning and very important to your writing, and yet you haven't tried it? I'd be dying of curiosity with my own books if I had any in KU. How can you stand not knowing?


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Error404 said:


> I've read these threads, too, and I know people upload test books and use those to see the page counts. Besides, this thread is older than your Halloween party cleaning and very important to your writing, and yet you haven't tried it? I'd be dying of curiosity with my own books if I had any in KU. How can you stand not knowing?


Because I have work to do and my overall numbers are exactly where I would expect them to be. You couldn't pay me to put up a test book and risk one of my fans getting nonsense. That's against Amazon's TOS and I would never risk it. I've monitored my books and my reads were exactly where I expected for September and right now they're exactly where I expect them for October. I do know. I know that I'm exactly where I expected to be.


----------



## TheLass

It would be interesting to find out.  Are there any other big names who could do the test?  A reader on the other thread has speculated that the spam filters bypass 'verified' authors (might be a sensible thing for Amazon to do if the filters hog processing time or something).


----------



## Error404

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Because I have work to do and my overall numbers are exactly where I would expect them to be. You couldn't pay me to put up a test book and risk one of my fans getting nonsense. That's against Amazon's TOS and I would never risk it. I've monitored my books and my reads were exactly where I expected for September and right now they're exactly where I expect them for October. I do know. I know that I'm exactly where I expected to be.


Not sure how your fans would know under a different name. Take a chance for the KBoards team and: Test it! Test it! The more info we have the more it helps everyone!


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Error404 said:


> Not sure how your fans would know under a different name. Take a chance for the KBoards team and: Test it! Test it! The more info we have the more it helps everyone!


No. I'm not risking my account for anything. Have a nice day.


----------



## Error404

TheLass said:


> It would be interesting to find out. Are there any other big names who could do the test? A reader on the other thread has speculated that the spam filters bypass 'verified' authors (might be a sensible thing for Amazon to do if the filters hog processing time or something).


This is what I'm curious about, too. Amanda's mentioned in the past how she's an All-Star. It'd be great for verification that she and other big names are/aren't affected.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Locking topic briefly while I get caught up. Peace, everyone.

_OK. Unlocking so y'all can continue as I know this is an important topic.

I've removed some posts that crossed the line; after we've done further review, additional posts may be removed.

Error404, your question to Amanda has been asked and answered. Move on if you wish to stay active in the thread.

Everyone, a gentle reminder that personal comments are not allowed and may result in banning or being placed on post approval._

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## KevinMcLaughlin

I'm *not* an all star, and my reads have not been impacted. For reference, I made 67,481 page reads in October 1-20, and 109,938 last month. Scaling the days, that works out to an estimate of 101,222 for the month of October, or about 92% of September's reads.

I'm experiencing an 8% decline in page reads, and overall about a 13% decline in revenue coming in (sales have dipped more than page reads). The reason it is that low is that I noticed a much sharper decline early in the month and increased my marketing to help compensate. I was down as much as 20% early on; it's picked back up.

What I am seeing is pretty typical for most businesses in the US right now. Of note: my Author Rank was *going up* in early October at the same time that my income was going down. What this implies is that overall, book sales are down sharply, and my additional marketing efforts - even though they did not reverse the income reduction completely - were actually resulting in my faring better than many other authors (thus the Author Rank boost).

This isn't at all what some folks were experiencing back in September, where their KU reads suddenly and completely crashed. That was clearly an error of some sort.

But if you're seeing a drop in October income in the 20-60% range, it's *probably* because of the elections. Step up the promotion campaigns a little, stay the course on everything else you're doing, and wait for the middle of November when things will clear up again.


----------



## PhoenixS

Amanda M. Lee said:


> You couldn't pay me to put up a test book and risk one of my fans getting nonsense. That's against Amazon's TOS and I would never risk it.


First, I absolutely agree that Amanda doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to do for whatever reason.

Second, since I've mentioned using test books in this thread, I want to assure her that the test book in my personal account and those few I know we use in other folks' accounts are real books. In my case, it's a twinpack of short stories under a pen name and in another author's case it's even a full novel under a pen name that they've abandoned to follow a more lucrative genre. The rest are mainly short stories. But ALL are legitimate content.

Third, I would NEVER advocate ANYONE put up a book of nonsense as a test book. And asking someone to just throw content up seems to be asking for just that. No. Lurkers, no, please, do NOT do this.


----------



## sela

It's possible that what Amazon has done applies to new releases, since many of the scammers were releasing hundreds of scam books a day. So maybe, the new fraud detection system only affects new books or books after they have been updated in any way, rather than every book in KU.

The main scam in KU 2.0 was the padded book with translations and extra books not identified in the product page, with the link to the back of the book for a contest or secret or other lure. The unsuspecting KU subscriber download the book, saw the link to the back with a lure in it, and clicked to the back of the book, triggering a full read. There were click farms set up to get all those full page reads from fake accounts.

This showed us that Amazon had no idea how many actual pages were actually read.

They _still_ have no idea, apparently.

If someone can read an entire book, flip back to the front, and then sync their Kindle and get only page reads for the last page when movement stopped, Amazon is still clueless about exactly how many _actual_ pages are being _actually_ read.

This issue would only affect books read on Kindles, and not books read in the Kindle Cloud reader, since I would expect those page reads are always synced. Correct me if I'm wrong. What about Kindle Apps on desktops, iPhones or iPads, tablets, etc.? Do they sync the same way as a Kindle or cloud reader?


----------



## KevinMcLaughlin

Yeah, it's totally one thing to go take a risk with your own business to find something out. If you want that sort of test data, go test it.  But asking someone else to violate a TOS agreement to fulfill my curiosity would be very uncool.

FWIW, I would strongly recommend NOT putting up "test books". Like Amanda and Phoenix have said, this could have very negative consequences for you. Don't do it. Some of us are running tests on old titles in KU that are not getting reads (and have not a while). That's OK, and a pretty good way to test. Don't mess around with your Amazon account over a blip like this, though. This is your business - your relationship with Amazon actually matters.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

All the test books I use are short fiction I wrote in college.


----------



## TheLass

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> FWIW, I would strongly recommend NOT putting up "test books". Like Amanda and Phoenix have said, this could have very negative consequences for you.


No, as Phoenix says, there's nothing wrong with putting up "test books" if those books are valid content.


----------



## Nothing To See

Sela said:


> This issue would only affect books read on Kindles, and not books read in the Kindle Cloud reader, since I would expect those page reads are always synced. Correct me if I'm wrong. What about Kindle Apps on desktops, iPhones or iPads, tablets, etc.? Do they sync the same way as a Kindle or cloud reader?


I used old shorts from an ancient pen name that gets no reads anymore. The reader who tested used a Kindle Voyage to read those. I tested using an old book of someone else's by using the Kindle App on my iphone. I personally read on my iphone or cloud, but I'm not sure how often Kindle cloud syncs and I didn't test cloud.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks, I've removed some posts based on my previous warning in this thread and some that responded to those.  Let's move on.  



Betsy
KB Moderator


----------



## Going Incognito

I went looking before posting, but I can't remember where I found it. I read that more than 11 thousand titles dropped out of KU between oct 15 and Oct 20th. My understanding is that thousands of titles are added to KU every month, balancing out and surpassing any that fall out, but if that's true, if over 11,000 titles were pulled out over a five day span- either people are getting mad and having their books pulled at a huge rate- or Zon is kicking out lots of titles. Can anyone else confirm?


----------



## Indiecognito

Going Incognito said:


> I went looking before posting, but I can't remember where I found it. I read that more than 11 thousand titles dropped out of KU between oct 15 and Oct 20th. My understanding is that thousands of titles are added to KU every month, balancing out and surpassing any that fall out, but if that's true, if over 11,000 titles were pulled out over a five day span- either people are getting mad and having their books pulled at a huge rate- or Zon is kicking out lots of titles. Can anyone else confirm?


A lot of authors have pulled all their books. I've pulled some as well. Not sure if it's 11,000, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised.


----------



## Going Incognito

Oh, I also read somewhere, here? I've been reading everything everywhere. I read that books in KU and books not in KU are on different servers. Now I'm as technologically inept as they come, but could books/authors in KU also be on different servers? Could the reason some books/authors are sooooo affected and others aren't be cause those authors are on diff Zon servers? Maybe one server is flipping out and everyone on it is seeing this huge drop? 
I've heard that if you join mailerlite? I think it's that one. Maybe mailchimp? That your email delivery rate depends on if you get lucky on your server assignment. So if that can happen with mailing list places...?


----------



## Colin

Going Incognito said:


> Oh, I also read somewhere, here? I've been reading everything everywhere. I read that books in KU and books not in KU are on different servers. Now I'm as technologically inept as they come, but could books/authors in KU also be on different servers?...


Good point. Perhaps it is (partially) server related.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## Going Incognito

PhoenixS said:


> So, when Amazon did a HUGE purge of scam titles/accounts back in the spring, it was verifiable via a sharp betterment in rank to one of those *legitimate* test books that we allow to languish in the #2M ranks  I looked at the decreases by day in rank from Oct 9-20. I found a marked decrease in the number of ranks lost between the 12th and 14th, with more moderate decreases on the 15th and 16th. Per the chart below, if the normal rank loss is about 3000 ranks per day, then there should have been a cumulative loss of 15,000 ranks for those 5 days. In fact, the loss is 5623 ranks. Or 9377 fewer than expected. And that's working from an estimated average, so 11K is entirely possible. So, while not conclusive evidence, it does point toward a good possibility that your source is correct, and that these were books removed from the live store completely.
> 
> Date Rank Loss
> 20	4186
> 19	2911
> 18	2636
> 17	3600
> 16	1349
> 15	1868
> 14	878
> 13	613
> 12	915
> 11	2336
> 10	3366
> 9 3502


Oh! So they weren't books pulled from KU but books pulled from Zon completely?


----------



## jason2505

Colin said:


> Good point. Perhaps it is (partially) server related.


The questions is, how will we know? KDP acts as if everything is fine on their end and just seems to make business as usual.


----------



## Colin

jason2505 said:


> The questions is, how will we know? KDP acts as if everything is fine on their end and just seems to make business as usual.


Indeed. Another good point!


----------



## NotAPenguin

Unfortunately they are still denying things publically. I am hoping they are at least attempting to fix things behind the scenes. That RWA post a while back is literally the only thing giving me hope.


----------



## phoenixwaller

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Whatever is happening here is only affecting some people. It's not affecting everyone. Given all the groups I'm in I would say that less than 1/4 of authors are being affected.
> 
> ...
> 
> There either has to be a common theme or something else going on. If it were PageFlip and this new problem then everyone would be affected at the same percentage. That's clearly not the case, so it has to be something else.


Something about those sections I pulled out struck a chord, and made me wonder if those seeing massive and mid-range drops are part of an internal beta group, or on a server with beta software.

A beta makes sense to me. You have to stress test new code before it goes wide. Putting it on a server with new stuff incoming makes sense to test that part, hence the everything after a date, and a few older servers to see how they perform. Two different code changes, to see which performs better could also explain things between those seeing 90% drops and 40% drops.

My bigger concern is that, if it IS a beta, why haven't they rolled back the code? Did one team not talk to another letting them know they were going to do this, are the people manning the phones and emails not getting enough information back to the techs, or is this expected behavior and they're tweaking before going wide with it?


----------



## The 13th Doctor

Okay, it looks like I've just been hit with the KU misreporting thing.

I have a couple of books in KU, the rest wide. For my 40kpc book, I've just seen a report of 1 page read on my KDP dashboard.

Granted, the person may have just read the first page, thought "meh" and decided not to read any more, but I thought I would just post this information to add to other people's data in this thread, if it is of any help.

And just to add some more info, which is probably not relevant but hey-ho -

I aspire to be a prawn (sales-wise!)
The book is in "romance > science fiction" and "science fiction > Post-apocalyptic" categories.
The book is Page Flip enabled (not intentionally by me)
It was recently added to KU (in the last month)
The UK ranking is embarrassingly low (seven figures!)
The KU borrow was made in the UK.


----------



## KevinMcLaughlin

Nanny Ogg said:


> Okay, it looks like I've just been hit with the KU misreporting thing.
> 
> I have a couple of books in KU, the rest wide. For my 40kpc book, I've just seen a report of 1 page read on my KDP dashboard.
> 
> Granted, the person may have just read the first page, thought "meh" and decided not to read any more, but I thought I would just post this information to add to other people's data in this thread, if it is of any help.
> 
> And just to add some more info, which is probably not relevant but hey-ho -
> 
> I aspire to be a prawn (sales-wise!)
> The book is in "romance > science fiction" and "science fiction > Post-apocalyptic" categories.
> The book is Page Flip enabled (not intentionally by me)
> It was recently added to KU (in the last month)
> The UK ranking is embarrassingly low (seven figures!)
> The KU borrow was made in the UK.


What tool did you use to format the file you uploaded to KDP? I ask because there is some evidence of a connection in this regard.


----------



## 75845

Another perfectly innocent way to get a one page read if the person who is recataloging their Kindle and opens up a page to find out whether Wool belongs in Dystopia or Agri-Economics.


----------



## The 13th Doctor

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> What tool did you use to format the file you uploaded to KDP? I ask because there is some evidence of a connection in this regard.


I think it was a .doc or .docx file. Might have been scrivener (the book's a few years old now, can't quite remember)


----------



## dragontucker

I had a lot of those "1 page reads" a few months ago. I always thought it was strange. Doesn't seem to be happening anymore though.


----------



## 75814

I haven't really seen a change in my page reads. A slight drop maybe, but nothing as drastic as some other people have noticed.

What I _have_ noticed is a drastic drop in sales. I did an ad push on a Countdown deal about two weeks ago and normally, that would at least break even. And though the book being advertised did jump in the ranks, the sales were pretty much nil. Right now, my revenue from October is less than half of my monthly average.

So I don't think it's PageFlip as my pages are pretty consistent. But I do think Amazon has either screwed something up or is tinkering with something behind the scenes. If there's some kind of glitch or they're making changes, that could explain why only some authors are affected while others aren't.


----------



## katrina46

Wow, this thread was started on October 2 and it's October 21 now. This whole month is blown. I made sure not to renew anything due to fall out of KU in November. I can only wait and see so long before I decide I don't like what I see.


----------



## dragontucker

Actually, guess I spoke too soon. I just got only 1 page read today  First time in a while that has happened.


----------



## Maia Sepp Ross

Amanda M. Lee said:


> There either has to be a common theme or something else going on. If it were PageFlip and this new problem then everyone would be affected at the same percentage. That's clearly not the case, so it has to be something else.


Speaking from a purely technological perspective, this is incorrect. It makes perfect *logical* sense that this would be the case, but software and hardware bugs sometimes affect only a small percentage of the user population, sometimes for reasons that aren't readily apparent to technology professionals (and because of the incredibly strong push to market that you'll see at a place like Amazon, sometimes a company *never* knows why a particular issue affects a small number of users and why it affected those users in particular. They might develop a patch, fix the problem, and then immediately move on to the next feature release.)

I worked for Kobo for a fair bit in a senior technology capacity. Publishing platforms are incredibly complex, and bugs like this are very very difficult to track down and remediate. It might very well be PageFlip, and only affecting a small % of the user population. Or it might be something else. What might also be happening is multiple, overlapping problems and one problem is obfuscating the second. Could be a hardware and a software bug working in concert.

Here's what I can say for sure. I'm glad I don't have to fix it


----------



## Patty Jansen

Talking about fixing, and this being a writers' forum and all that....

How come this thread has gone for SIXTY pages and no one has yet killed that errant apostrophe in the title?


----------



## Moist_Tissue

Patty Jansen said:


> Talking about fixing, and this being a writers' forum and all that....
> 
> How come this thread has gone for SIXTY pages and no one has yet killed that errant apostrophe in the title?


It's all about the reader's experience. If readers lose themselves in the title, forget about grammar/syntax/spelling.


----------



## JRTomlin

Patty Jansen said:


> Talking about fixing, and this being a writers' forum and all that....
> 
> How come this thread has gone for SIXTY pages and no one has yet killed that errant apostrophe in the title?


Best question of the entire thread.


----------



## eroticatorium

Moist_Tissue said:


> It's all about the reader's experience. If readers lose themselves in the title, forget about grammar/syntax/spelling.


I did scream at my laptop, but for some reason that didn't fix it. I blame Tim Cook.


----------



## Maia Sepp Ross

NotAPenguin said:


> Though I will say that the scroll back issue seems to be universal for anyone who has been willing to test, as does the page flip issue since Amazon is continuing to deny that anyone reads in it HA HA HA.


Both are issues I'd investigate if I was working on this problem.

One other thing I'd add is that if this was a simple problem/fix, it would have been resolved before any public entity was even aware of it. It feels like a complex issue to me.


----------



## Mxz

Going Incognito said:


> I went looking before posting, but I can't remember where I found it. I read that more than 11 thousand titles dropped out of KU between oct 15 and Oct 20th. My understanding is that thousands of titles are added to KU every month, balancing out and surpassing any that fall out, but if that's true, if over 11,000 titles were pulled out over a five day span- either people are getting mad and having their books pulled at a huge rate- or Zon is kicking out lots of titles. Can anyone else confirm?


I asked them to take out a few of my books (all before the term end date), and they took one out, so I'm thinking it's a mix of people pulling out books and maybe some being dropped from the program.


----------



## Gator

Patty Jansen said:


> How come this thread has gone for SIXTY pages and no one has yet killed that errant apostrophe in the title?


I did here a few weeks ago, but it doesn't propagate through. The OP needs to update the thread title or else every individual responder needs to update the subject for every comment made on this thread.


----------



## Gator

Going Incognito said:


> I went looking before posting, but I can't remember where I found it. I read that more than 11 thousand titles dropped out of KU between oct 15 and Oct 20th. My understanding is that thousands of titles are added to KU every month, balancing out and surpassing any that fall out, but if that's true, if over 11,000 titles were pulled out over a five day span- either people are getting mad and having their books pulled at a huge rate- or Zon is kicking out lots of titles. Can anyone else confirm?


I've been tracking the numbers almost daily for years. No, 11K titles didn't drop out of KU between Oct. 15th and 20th. KU _gained_ 3,682 titles in that period. Since the beginning of the year, KU has added an average of 786 titles daily.

The number of titles in KU peaked in September, and KU has lost 4,253 titles since then. Since the Kindle Store has continued to grow while KU shrank, KU has declined from 29.7% of all Kindle Store titles to 29.4%.

However, if KU had continued to grow at the rate it was growing before the decline, then we'd see about 26K more titles in KU than there are now. The decline looks like a combination of KDP Select publishers pulling their titles, not renewing them, and Amazon yanking the scamtastic titles. (For comparison, an average of 15,800 renew daily in KDP Select.)

That's a loss of 1.8% so far from the expected growth. Not enough for Amazon to care when they already have 1.42 million titles in KU. Even if they lost 400K, they'd still have a million titles in KU. And Amazon is probably only considering the 4,253 titles dropped from the September peak, which is a loss of 0.3%. Amazon's not going to tear up over _that_.


----------



## Abalone

Or those authors had auto-renew not checked.


----------



## BloodHound

In the absence of any transparency, denials, or fixes by Amazon the best hypothesis or most reasonable argument might be that Amazon sees no problems and what's happening is what they intended to happen. Bottom line any complaints should be directed to the FTC where Amazon does not have a good track record. I mean really how many times does the same letter being posted from Amazon, denying everything, for that to sink in with people. Large corporation don't give you fairness you have to force the issue in many cases.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Gator said:


> That's a loss of 1.8% so far from the expected growth. Not enough for Amazon to care when they already have 1.42 million titles in KU. Even if they lost 400K, they'd still have a million titles in KU. And Amazon is probably only considering the 4,253 titles dropped from the September peak, which is a loss of 0.3%. Amazon's not going to tear up over _that_.


It doesn't matter if Amazon has a million titles in KU if they are titles that no one wants to read. In this game quality, not quantity, matters. For the vast majority of books on Amazon, a handful of sales in a year is the norm. Only a small subset generate any meaningful number of sales, and those are the ones that Amazon has to have in the Select program for it to be successful. If people can't find books they want to read in KU, they will not sign up and they will not renew their subscriptions.

The question is going to be whether the bean counters calling the shots at Amazon remember that books are not interchangeable widgets before they completely wreck the program with their boneheaded decisions and attitude towards the writers who make the program successful.


----------



## crow.bar.beer

Their utter incompetence and/or laziness is what is so shocking (so shocking I don't even think we're addressing this enough). 

A tiny, tiny file on the Kindle or app could tally every page that was displayed in a book. It's something an old Atari system could accomplish with its joystick tied behind its back. 

That they've obviously never done this demonstrates they were never that serious about actually tracking every page read, because that's exactly how you do it. 
Like, the only actual way to do it, honestly. 
And they didn't. 
And that's pathetic, it's dishonest, and it's unfair to authors who've given them exclusivity. 

It needs to be immediately rectified.  *And* they need to start sharing with us how many pages were actually read from each borrow. They've shown they can't be trusted with such a lack of transparency. A vendor at Wal*Mart has physical evidence. We get nothing.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Maia Sepp said:


> Speaking from a purely technological perspective, this is incorrect. It makes perfect *logical* sense that this would be the case, but software and hardware bugs sometimes affect only a small percentage of the user population, sometimes for reasons that aren't readily apparent to technology professionals (and because of the incredibly strong push to market that you'll see at a place like Amazon, sometimes a company *never* knows why a particular issue affects a small number of users and why it affected those users in particular. They might develop a patch, fix the problem, and then immediately move on to the next feature release.)
> 
> I worked for Kobo for a fair bit in a senior technology capacity. Publishing platforms are incredibly complex, and bugs like this are very very difficult to track down and remediate. It might very well be PageFlip, and only affecting a small % of the user population. Or it might be something else. What might also be happening is multiple, overlapping problems and one problem is obfuscating the second. Could be a hardware and a software bug working in concert.
> 
> Here's what I can say for sure. I'm glad I don't have to fix it


Under normal circumstances I would agree. However, the argument is that PageFlip reads are not being counted. Amazon says no one reads in PageFlip and they're not meant to count in PageFlip. Other people say a lot of readers do it in PageFlip. The reads are never supposed to count in PageFlip. So, if PageFlip is the big issue, shouldn't everyone be affected roughly the same? That's not some sort of software glitch. That's a fact of the program's design. While variables like how many readers you personally have who read in PageFlip could be an issue, if PageFlip is managing to decimate 90 percent of some authors' reads then it should at least be apparent as a problem for everyone and that's not the case. That's why I say it has to be something else. The same for the thing where you flip to the beginning or middle of the book and lose reads after the fact. Everyone says that's happening 100 percent of the time (I have not tested it) so if it affects everyone, shouldn't everyone be seeing a fall because of it? Neither one of those things would be a program issue that allows for variations. It has to be something else that affects one section of authors, whether it be a server issue or something else.


----------



## 75845

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Under normal circumstances I would agree. However, the argument is that PageFlip reads are not being counted. Amazon says no one reads in PageFlip and they're not meant to count in PageFlip. Other people say a lot of readers do it in PageFlip. The reads are never supposed to count in PageFlip. So, if PageFlip is the big issue, shouldn't everyone be affected roughly the same? That's not some sort of software glitch. That's a fact of the program's design. While variables like how many readers you personally have who read in PageFlip could be an issue, if PageFlip is managing to decimate 90 percent of some authors' reads then it should at least be apparent as a problem for everyone and that's not the case. That's why I say it has to be something else. The same for the thing where you flip to the beginning or middle of the book and lose reads after the fact. Everyone says that's happening 100 percent of the time (I have not tested it) so if it affects everyone, shouldn't everyone be seeing a fall because of it? Neither one of those things would be a program issue that allows for variations. It has to be something else that affects one section of authors, whether it be a server issue or something else.


Page Flip would not be expected to affect all books in the same way and you provided the reason in your comment: only some use Page Flip for reading. It is a feature copied from Google Play Books, I discovered it there by accident and after initially switching back to see the full screen I went back because it is easier to flick through the pages. Therefore Page Flip is more likely to be used in certain genres known for having skimming readers among the fan base (e.g., romance or non fiction). It will also vary by author as a romance author who writes in an engrossing way may find less readers wanting to skim than a writer whose primary skill is in the scenes that few readers want to skip. As Page Flip is recent and used by a minority it would be statistically unlikely to affect all successful writers in equal proportion. It is more likely to be used by readers who always skim and even with a compulsive skimmer a good writer can slow you down. I know that I can only skim an okay book. A bad book is too painful to speed read and a good book hooks me into reading it in slow gear.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Mercia McMahon said:


> Page Flip would not be expected to affect all books in the same way and you provided the reason in your comment: only some use Page Flip for reading. It is a feature copied from Google Play Books, I discovered it there by accident and after initially switching back to see the full screen I went back because it is easier to flick through the pages. Therefore Page Flip is more likely to be used in certain genres known for having skimming readers among the fan base (e.g., romance or non fiction). It will also vary by author as a romance author who writes in an engrossing way may find less readers wanting to skim than a writer whose primary skill is in the scenes that few readers want to skip. As Page Flip is recent and used by a minority it would be statistically unlikely to affect all successful writers in equal proportion. It is more likely to be used by readers who always skim and even with a compulsive skimmer a good writer can slow you down. I know that I can only skim an okay book. A bad book is too painful to speed read and a good book hooks me into reading it in slow gear.


Yes, but there's no rhyme or reason to who is being affected. Yes, some people say romance, but they're hardly the only ones. So, if it's one sort of reader, then it would make sense for only romance readers to be affected, or only mystery readers to be affected. It's across a very small board and hops multiple genres. No one should be completely unscathed if it's PageFlip.


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## sela

Every month, people start threads asking about whether Amazon is slow to update the page reads, etc. Most of the time, they realize that it was just an errant lag in reporting, and everything goes back to normal.

The September chasm (at least for some people) was more than just one of those slow reporting lags or else it would have gone back to BAU and we all would have moved on.

Obviously, something real happened to affect some authors' page reads.

Not everyone was affected -- at least, not everyone has reported significantly lowered page reads for September. Some may not have noticed or were unaffected.

Amazon has pulled its usual deny-deny-deny-admit something but not say what it was, move along, nothing to see anymore schtick.

My own suspicious are thus:

Amazon implemented some new system that is intended to counter the book-stuffing-link-to-the-back-scamming free-run-scamming-price-changing click-farming scammers who stole so many page reads from the rest of the honest authors in KU.

Sadly, like many fixes of this type, the fix probably created some harms of its own for those same honest authors in KU. Maybe the scam fixing programs only affect some authors -- those who have a new release or those who have a free promo, since both those have been used by scammers for their ill-gotten gains.

Considering there are up to 3,000 books published a day on Amazon, it would take a small army to vet each book by hand. Amazon probably can't justify the cost for those book vetters so instead, it uses automated systems to detect fraud. Those automated systems can gave unintended consequences and negative side-effects on honest indie authors in KU.


_edited to conform with Forum Guidelines -- please PM me if you have any questions -- Ann_


----------



## Gone Girl

We miss you, Harvey Chute.


----------



## Maia Sepp Ross

Amanda M. Lee said:


> So, if PageFlip is the big issue, shouldn't everyone be affected roughly the same? That's not some sort of software glitch. That's a fact of the program's design.


No, not at all, regardless of how logical what you're saying sounds and feels. It could quite easily be some element of PageFlip that's causing the issue (and many apps like this have so many thousands of lines of hidden code that grab performance and user metrics, financial data, etc. that the app you see and use is actually just one layer of what's actually going on in your interaction during client/server interactions such as a user reading a Kindle book that reports their reading activity back to a cluster of servers that crunch that data.)

Whatever feature(s) are the cause of the issue, there are so many variables that go into architecting and maintaining a system of this complexity that it's quite possible that a single feature, in concert with other unknown variables, could cause these types of behaviours in a small user subset. My gut, like I said earlier, is that this is a complex, cross-functional bug. And complex, cross-functional bugs are business as usual in today's "cloud" (there is no cloud, btw) based Internet. I've been involved in identifying and remediating tons.

The apps that run on the Internet and the Internet itself are all complex and multi-faceted and affect and are affected by: software, firmware, hardware, networking elements, interacting with taxation, business, security, and monitoring systems as well as unintended and unexpected impacts from patches to the system for non-related issues. And the list goes on.

So, having a bug that affects a small user cohort = totally normal behaviour. The only thing I'm surprised about is that we haven't seen something like this from Amazon earlier.

ETA: Part of the reason I'm saying this is due to the fact that PageFlip is a new feature - and nothing to do with how this feature should or should not be used. New features are always risky and can have unintended consequences.


----------



## Maia Sepp Ross

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It has to be something else that affects one section of authors, whether it be a server issue or something else.


I'm always curious when people say "server issue" what they mean by that. (I'm a sysadmin - a server administrator, not a programmer). I don't know anything about how Amazon sets up their gear -- and for a product like Kindle books, they'll have acres of servers from a global perspective, and the servers hosting the actual books we all sell will be in some sort of cluster that's replicated to all of their global locations, and it'll serve that data to the closest client, meaning that readers in Australia get served data from Sydney, and I get data from their Toronto colos. So it's a massive geographically load-balanced redundant server farm. A single change logged in Toronto will be replicated to at least some part of their global infrastructure. Personally, I'd like to know how they upgrade and patch that infrastructure to maintain a unified, cohesive whole.

Regardless, the point I wanted to make was that the note I just posted about PageFlip could actually relate to any feature or element of the system, including something inside their server farm architecture. I would check that as well, if I was working on this. Which I'm not. Yay!


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## Maia Sepp Ross

One other thing I'd like to add: If anyone is having any interactions with Amazon on this, and they can reproduce any sort of buggy behaviour - video it and send the footage to Amazon. Actually seeing a bug play out on someone's device is like gold for troubleshooters.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## PhoenixS

**************


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## Acrocanthosaurus

There would be so much less panic and complaining and gnashing of teeth if Amazon would make a very simple statement like: We have identified an ongoing issue and are working to correct it.

I don't want an apology or even an explanation, I just want to continue writing books.


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## sela

Hey, I love Amazon -- even when I criticize it. Amazon is a game changer that made indie publishing viable for the first time. It took away the stigma and the big middle man and let us indies sell our books directly in its marketplace. Many of us -- many more than ever before -- are making a good, decent, great and even fantastic living largely in part due to Amazon's willingness to disrupt the old system. 

That doesn't mean we have to shut the F up and swallow. We are now business people running individual businesses. That means we should act as professionals and we should expect to be treated that way. 

My criticism of Amazon is that it is so darn opaque. It doesn't always treat us as partners who deserve to be kept informed and to be honest, nor do we all act that way all the time either. It would be nice for Amazon to acknowledge publicly (even if only in a KDP email) that there is/was a problem, they are working on it, and it will be fixed. Treat us like business partners, and not children.  

Because of the whole mess, I am rethinking going all in to KU. Until this all happened, I was going to give it a shot. My sales are slowly falling on the other retailers and there are about 4 months before I'm eligible for another Bookbub. Now is the time to go all in. I have a few new releases I was going to put in KU to test the waters.

BUT... I am not sure any longer. I hate the idea of being all in. I hate being at the mercy of one big corporation that sees me and treats me like an injured gazelle. Who knows what new scam and new fix will arise in the next 90 days or how it will affect the visibility of my books? This is not pocket change for me. This is my livelihood and that of my family. It is my future and eventually, my retirement.


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## Indiecognito

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> There would be so much less panic and complaining and gnashing of teeth if Amazon would make a very simple statement like: We have identified an ongoing issue and are working to correct it.
> 
> I don't want an apology or even an explanation, I just want to continue writing books.


I'm so with you. I've been feeling paralyzed, frustrated and unsure of how to proceed. It's even eating away at my motivation to write, which shouldn't be tangled into the mess, but it is. Because the fact is that I don't know anymore what to do with the books when they're completed.


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## Anarchist

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> There would be so much less panic and complaining and gnashing of teeth if Amazon would make a very simple statement like: We have identified an ongoing issue and are working to correct it.


Amazon has zero incentive to publicly disclose problems. It gains nothing from doing so.

Sure, some authors may threaten to leave. But their exodus isn't likely to have much of an impact on Amazon's long-term goals. If the _top 1,000 authors_ left KDP, that would be different. But I'd be gobsmacked if 5% of that number actually pulled the trigger after these latest issues.

Therefore, no incentive.


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## KZoe

Gator said:


> I've been tracking the numbers almost daily for years. No, 11K titles didn't drop out of KU between Oct. 15th and 20th. KU _gained_ 3,682 titles in that period. Since the beginning of the year, KU has added an average of 786 titles daily.
> 
> The number of titles in KU peaked in September, and KU has lost 4,253 titles since then. Since the Kindle Store has continued to grow while KU shrank, KU has declined from 29.7% of all Kindle Store titles to 29.4%.
> 
> However, if KU had continued to grow at the rate it was growing before the decline, then we'd see about 26K more titles in KU than there are now. The decline looks like a combination of KDP Select publishers pulling their titles, not renewing them, and Amazon yanking the scamtastic titles. (For comparison, an average of 15,800 renew daily in KDP Select.)
> 
> That's a loss of 1.8% so far from the expected growth. Not enough for Amazon to care when they already have 1.42 million titles in KU. Even if they lost 400K, they'd still have a million titles in KU. And Amazon is probably only considering the 4,253 titles dropped from the September peak, which is a loss of 0.3%. Amazon's not going to tear up over _that_.


I believe my data is the 11,000 titles being quoted here and I want to clarify that it's the _Romance_ category in KU that I'm tracking, not KU total. The number of romance titles listed in KU did shrink from 133,714 books on 10/15 to 122,323 on 10/20 which is highly unusual.


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## Gentleman Zombie

I'm starting to be of the unpopular opinion that scammers may have been inflating page reads for indies across the board. In fact, fake automated pages reads might just have been a much bigger problem than Amazon is ever going to admit publicly. That would mean lots of indie authors were completely unaware that a significant percentage of their page-reads in KU weren't from real readers at all.  But were from scammers trying to mask their scambooks.. by borrowing and reading legitimate books. 

When the scammers got ganked.. the artificially inflated page reads stopped across the board (and the associated borrows). Toss in an algorithm change that punishes spikes in free download and an entire industry gets slammed. It would explain why some are effected and others aren't. Those in genres where the scammers were heavily present got the brunt of it.

That's just my guess and I already know that it's a one most will balk at.  Either way, I just put two more things in KU, they aren't doing much. But they aren't hot niche/genre books and I've done zero promo. I actually think things will balance out eventually, Amazon is just making it harder for aggressive marketing to push a book to the top (and thus earn more money).


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## NotAPenguin

KZoe said:


> I believe my data is the 11,000 titles being quoted here and I want to clarify that it's the _Romance_ category in KU that I'm tracking, not KU total. The number of romance titles listed in KU did shrink from 133,714 books on 10/15 to 122,323 on 10/20 which is highly unusual.


Oh that IS odd! Where do you get your numbers? Maybe more books being moved into erotica?

I would love to hear that it's being remedied but I don't think that will happen unless lots of media pressure is applied. I would love even more to hear (or see!) that it's fixed!


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## KelliWolfe

Gentleman Zombie said:


> I'm starting to be of the unpopular opinion that scammers may have been inflating page reads for indies across the board. In fact, fake automated pages reads might just have been a much bigger problem than Amazon is ever going to admit publicly. That would mean lots of indie authors were completely unaware that a significant percentage of their page-reads in KU weren't from real readers at all. But were from scammers trying to mask their scambooks.. by borrowing and reading legitimate books.
> 
> When the scammers got ganked.. the artificially inflated page reads stopped across the board (and the associated borrows). Toss in an algorithm change that punishes spikes in free download and an entire industry gets slammed. It would explain why some are effected and others aren't. Those in genres where the scammers were heavily present got the brunt of it.


Except if that many page reads were being thrown out, shouldn't we see more than in 8% drop for the month (6% if you adjust for the extra day in August)? That's within the normal monthly variation, and we don't hear this kind of screaming about that. Lots of whining and moaning when it happens, but not the kind of plummets in page reads that have been discussed here.

Consider that this would have to account for both the scammer's *own* page-reads being thrown out as well as the massive drop in legitimate page reads being reported. You'd expect the scammers to be hitting their own pages at least as much as the ones they use for camouflage, so you're down to a 3-4% drop in overall page reads that have to explain the catastrophic losses people are reporting.


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## Hope

dragontucker said:


> Actually, guess I spoke too soon. I just got only 1 page read today  First time in a while that has happened.


I'm getting at least two a day, and some days more than that. It's depressing.


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## SomeoneElse

KZoe said:


> I believe my data is the 11,000 titles being quoted here and I want to clarify that it's the _Romance_ category in KU that I'm tracking, not KU total. The number of romance titles listed in KU did shrink from 133,714 books on 10/15 to 122,323 on 10/20 which is highly unusual.


I wonder if Amazon is somehow cleaning up categories then.

One of my books was in the SFF category (which it arguably belongs in, but I never put it there, only used 'portal fantasy' as a keyword after picking two more fundamental categories.) And when I happened to look yesterday, it was no longer in that category (it had also picked up a new category, which was just a carbon copy of an old one with kindle books stuck before it.)

The only change I've made to it was the price, and that change hadn't gone through when I noticed the categories were different.


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## PhoenixS

**************


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## Ros_Jackson

KZoe said:


> I believe my data is the 11,000 titles being quoted here and I want to clarify that it's the _Romance_ category in KU that I'm tracking, not KU total. The number of romance titles listed in KU did shrink from 133,714 books on 10/15 to 122,323 on 10/20 which is highly unusual.


I would treat that number with caution. The last time there was a problem of this scale with KU I made a note of the numbers of books enrolled, and noticed that there was a drop, but the drop was very inconsistent from hour to hour and would change by several thousand up or down. I think the synchronisation of different data centres plays a part.


----------



## Hope

LSMay said:


> I wonder if Amazon is somehow cleaning up categories then.
> 
> One of my books was in the SFF category (which it arguably belongs in, but I never put it there, only used 'portal fantasy' as a keyword after picking two more fundamental categories.) And when I happened to look yesterday, it was no longer in that category (it had also picked up a new category, which was just a carbon copy of an old one with kindle books stuck before it.)
> 
> The only change I've made to it was the price, and that change hadn't gone through when I noticed the categories were different.


My categories have changed multiple times without me making any changes to my listing. I have a Halloween themed cozy mystery that was put in a witches & wizards category when there weren't any witches or wizards in it. For at least a couple of weeks after it was released it went between that one and culinary cozies. Back and forth. I have no idea what it means.

Actually, I just checked it and it's back in that witches & wizards category.


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## 75814

LSMay said:


> I wonder if Amazon is somehow cleaning up categories then.
> 
> One of my books was in the SFF category (which it arguably belongs in, but I never put it there, only used 'portal fantasy' as a keyword after picking two more fundamental categories.) And when I happened to look yesterday, it was no longer in that category (it had also picked up a new category, which was just a carbon copy of an old one with kindle books stuck before it.)
> 
> The only change I've made to it was the price, and that change hadn't gone through when I noticed the categories were different.


If they are, they haven't gotten around to superhero. After a period where it was mostly superhero books, now it's back to being clogged with paranormal romance.


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## Cherise

My Scottish time travel romance got stuck in galactic empires at some point...


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## 75845

Top level categories such as SFF and Romance are the only ones most trade publishers are interested it (as it blends with the bookshop experience), so it makes sense if Amazon stop their Al Go Bots from moving books into top level categories or stop placing all books in a sub category also in the category it is subbing. Whether that is what is happening is another matter, but protecting those top levels that the big trades love would make sense for Amazon's bottom line.


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## Gator

KZoe said:


> I believe my data is the 11,000 titles being quoted here and I want to clarify that it's the _Romance_ category in KU that I'm tracking, not KU total. The number of romance titles listed in KU did shrink from 133,714 books on 10/15 to 122,323 on 10/20 which is highly unusual.


Yes, it looks unusual. While I track the total romance category numbers and the total KU numbers, I don't track the romance category within KU. The romance category in the Kindle Store shows daily incremental increases in the number of titles during that period, from 403,025 titles to 404,335 titles, or a growth of 1,310 titles. The romance category averaged an increase of 209 titles daily for the year up through Oct. 15th, so that's a 25.5% increase over the long-term average during that time frame, indicating romance publishers were still enthused (hopeful?) about the category.

When a category (KU Romance) shrinks by 11,400 titles, yet the total group (KU) increases by 3,700 titles, that means:

1.) Those titles were replaced by new titles, but in other categories, or
2.) Those titles were moved to other categories, or
3.) Amazon's programmers are fudging the numbers, or
4.) A combination of the above reasons.

With the increase in romance titles during the period, it doesn't look like #2 is viable. #3 doesn't even have to be deliberate. It can be from mistimed data syncs, disconnected network nodes, etc.


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## Colin

Cherise said:


> My Scottish time travel romance got stuck in galactic empires at some point...


Wow.... stuck in galactic empires?

Beam me up, Scotty!


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## Cherise

Colin said:


> Beam me up, Scotty!


Heh!


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## Abalone

One of my first few novellas, a Korean drug lord saga is now gaining sales and KENPC despite having gotten coffee money this year and last. Jesus, Amazon, please fix this issue. I want my monies as do all these lovely people. 

*SLAMS HEAD ON DESK*


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

A KBoarder on another thread downloaded and read through a copy of one of my children's books that hasn't had a sale or page read for a few months. We wanted to see if it would generate the dreaded 1 page read if he read it to the end and went back to the beginning without closing the book. This is the date and time of his post saying that it had been done *October 21*, 2016, 05:14:35 AM ». It is now *October 23* and still no sign of a page read. The book is registering 0. Is this the usual length of time one has to wait, or have the page reads gone the way of all the other missing page reads? 

In the past 3 days I've had a total of 5 page reads on one book and no sales over 10 books, but my author ranking went from 173,544 on Oct 21 to 93,173 to date. That's just for 5 page reads .


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## Abalone

It might be delayed, Jan. I would say the hamsters at the giant wheels within Amazon have fell asleep due to eating too much pelleted kibble. My silly and likely very annoying humor aside, I would wait 24 hours and then send an email to Amazon. I myself recall reading how reads may not register if Amazon finds a way for the two people to be related in any way, including friendship. I, personally, think it's all hogwash.


----------



## Guest

Abalone said:


> It might be delayed, Jan. I would say the hamsters at the giant wheels within Amazon have fell asleep due to eating too much pelleted kibble. My silly and likely very annoying humor aside, I would wait 24 hours and then send an email to Amazon. I myself recall reading how reads may not register if Amazon finds a way for the two people to be related in any way, including friendship. I, personally, think it's all hogwash.


You seriously think it's just delayed after everything that's gone on in this thread? KU is BROKEN


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Abalone said:


> It might be delayed, Jan. I would say the hamsters at the giant wheels within Amazon have fell asleep due to eating too much pelleted kibble. My silly and likely very annoying humor aside, I would wait 24 hours and then send an email to Amazon. I myself recall reading how reads may not register if Amazon finds a way for the two people to be related in any way, including friendship. I, personally, think it's all hogwash.


It's already been 2 days, do you mean wait another 24 hrs?


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## Chrissy

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> It's already been 2 days, do you mean wait another 24 hrs?


I know you didn't ask me... here's my two cent anyway. 

Between the existing Amazon page read problems and the Internet disruption that hit the United States last Thursday/Friday (which did impacted parts of Amazon), I would NOT wait.


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## KelliWolfe

Abalone said:


> It might be delayed, Jan. I would say the hamsters at the giant wheels within Amazon have fell asleep due to eating too much pelleted kibble. My silly and likely very annoying humor aside, I would wait 24 hours and then send an email to Amazon. I myself recall reading how reads may not register if Amazon finds a way for the two people to be related in any way, including friendship. I, personally, think it's all hogwash.


You're thinking of reviews, not reads.


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## sela

Did he sync his Kindle?

If he closed his Kindle and didn't have WiFi on the page reads won't be recorded until he syncs again, right?


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

sela said:


> Did he sync his Kindle?
> 
> If he closed his Kindle and didn't have WiFi on the page reads won't be recorded until he syncs again, right?


I'll have to ask.


----------



## eroticatorium

At around the same time this stuff started happening, I saw a major shift towards buying bundles over stories, and towards buying bigger bundles over smaller ones. That change has shown to be durable, even as my pages have mostly recovered.

Are y'all seeing this change? I'm curious if that is part of Amazon's algo shift or whatever (or is an unintentional byproduct of it), or if it's more specific to me and changes I've been making, etc.

The change is consistent throughout my bundles, all of which are erotica but 60+ pen names, numerous bundles of various niches, gay, straight and lesbian, etc.


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## Amanda M. Lee

eroticatorium said:


> At around the same time this stuff started happening, I saw a major shift towards buying bundles over stories, and towards buying bigger bundles over smaller ones. That change has shown to be durable, even as my pages have mostly recovered.
> 
> Are y'all seeing this change? I'm curious if that is part of Amazon's algo shift or whatever (or is an unintentional byproduct of it), or if it's more specific to me and changes I've been making, etc.
> 
> The change is consistent throughout my bundles, all of which are erotica but 60+ pen names, numerous bundles of various niches, gay, straight and lesbian, etc.


Of the people I know having issues, almost all of them have said the exact opposite, that their bundles are plummeting in reads in comparison with regular titles.


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## Acrocanthosaurus

If the reduced page reads come from page flip and the syncing problem where the Kindles aren't reporting read pages after returning to an earlier point, I would expect bundles to be most affected as they would encourage flipping around in the title.


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## eroticatorium

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Of the people I know having issues, almost all of them have said the exact opposite, that their bundles are plummeting in reads in comparison with regular titles.


That makes sense, it seems like bundles should be dropping because of this stuff, it's strange that I seem to be the only one seeing the exact opposite.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> If the reduced page reads come from page flip and the syncing problem where the Kindles aren't reporting read pages after returning to an earlier point, I would expect bundles to be most affected as they would encourage flipping around in the title.


I'm having a syncing problem between my phone and my tablet. When I switch from the tablet to the phone, it opens at the last page read on the phone, not last page read on the tablet. But, this is with a purchased book, not a KU book. Even so, it might be symptomatic of the problem with KU books. I'll have to see if that happens with a borrowed book.


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## Marcus Herzig

Hey yo,

long time lurker here. I read stuff on KBoards all the time, gathering information and making up my mind about all sorts of issues, but I usually stay quiet unless I think I have something substantial to contribute or I'm able to add a new perspective. I think that time has come, so bear with me.

I've been following this thread from the beginning, reading or at least skimming all 63 pages. I haven't had anything to contribute so far because honestly, I'm not even a prawn. I'm an amoeba, aspiring to be a prawn one day. But I have been in the process of finishing and publishing a new book in the last few weeks, and I found the thought that people might be reading it without me getting credited (i.e. PAID) for it properly quite disconcerting, to say the least. 

Long story short, my new book went on sale last week, and given the circumstances, I decided to get a KU subscription so I could borrow my own book and run my own test. So that's what I did. 

Note: I'm in Germany and I'm an Amazon.de customer, but I write in English for the English language market. I've never EVER had a single page read from Germany, which makes me think that my test has produced uncontaminated results, i.e. any page reads from Germany are most likely my own. Also, I have a Kindle Keyboard, so page flip is not an issue here.

Anyway, here's what I found:

1. It's true. If you read to any point in a borrowed book and then skip back to the beginning before closing the app or shutting down your Kindle device (henceforth referred to as "closing the book"), the author only gets credited for 1 page read even though the reader has read more than just 1 page.

2. However, if you open a book, skip all the way to the end and read only the last page and then close the book, the author gets credited for the entire book even though the reader hasn't actually read all of it. This is where this bug/glitch/whatever is actually working in our favor, and I think this hasn't been mentioned in this thread before. Then again, it doesn't really help us authors much because, realistically, how many readers do that? Exactly. 

So my conclusion, which has mostly been established in this thread before, is that Amazon doesn't actually register the pages you read but only the last page you were on when you closed the book.

Now here's why this is less of a problem than it may seem: most people don't read a book in one go and then skip back to the beginning before they close the book. Most people will take days or even weeks to finish a book, and every time they take a break, Amazon registers the last page read and the author gets paid accordingly. 

However, here's why it's still a problem, though: there ARE power readers who do actually read a book in one go. They are the kind of people who are willing to fork out $9.99 a month to read as many books as they can. And if those readers skip back to the beginning before they close the book, the author only gets paid for 1 page. That's not acceptable. 

Now imagine the following situation, which happens to be a pretty accurate description of my own reading behavior. Let's say I borrow a book that has a 500 KENPC. It takes me several days to finish it. Every time I take a break, Amazon registers the last page read, and the author gets paid for the amount of pages I've read. So far, so good. BUT think about the day I finish that book. Let's say I have 50 pages left to go. 450 of the 500-page book have already been registered, so that's fine. But then I read the last 50 pages and when I'm done I skip back to the beginning before I close the book. I actually do that all the time. When I finish a book on my Kindle, I skip back to the beginning before I close it. It gives me closure. Sue me. 

The important point is: those last 50 pages read will not get registered and the author will not get paid for them. And that is not acceptable because a lot of readers will behave like that, and if we're talking about 1000 or 10,000 or 50,000 readers whose last 10 or 50 or 100 pages read don't get registered... well, you do the math.

Even if it's not as big a problem as some of us may think, it's still a problem. And I think some people here who have hundreds of thousands or even millions of page reads a month may not even notice it or shrug it off. But for the majority of small fish/prawn/krill/amoeba here, it's a problem that may amount to a substantial loss of income.


----------



## AllyWho

Marcus Herzig said:


> So my conclusion, which has mostly been established in this thread before, is that Amazon doesn't actually register the pages you read but only the last page you were on when you closed the book.


This isn't anything new - we've known for several months that Amazon can't establish actual pages read but only the last page on the book when the device is synced. It's also why the scammers were using links to take people directly to the last page, to trigger a full payout.


----------



## phoenixwaller

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I'm having a syncing problem between my phone and my tablet. When I switch from the tablet to the phone, it opens at the last page read on the phone, not last page read on the tablet. But, this is with a purchased book, not a KU book. Even so, it might be symptomatic of the problem with KU books. I'll have to see if that happens with a borrowed book.


It does, at least last week or so it did, haven't checked since. I read partially through a borrowed book on my eInk kindle, then finished in my phone. Synced both devices, but it never reported back from the phone. Even worse, the PHONE knows I finished, but every time I open it tells me that the last synced location was from the eink kindle, halfway through the book.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

phoenixwaller said:


> It does, at least last week or so it did, haven't checked since. I read partially through a borrowed book on my eInk kindle, then finished in my phone. Synced both devices, but it never reported back from the phone. Even worse, the PHONE knows I finished, but every time I open it tells me that the last synced location was from the eink kindle, halfway through the book.


Sounds like this is more of a problem than page flip. I'm sure many sync back and forth between devices, probably a lot more than read with page flip.

What kind of phone do you have? I have the Fire phone which I bought to make sure of the best reading experience between devices. Used to work just fine.


----------



## phoenixwaller

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Sounds like this is more of a problem than page flip. I'm sure many sync back and forth between devices, probably a lot more than read with page flip.
> 
> What kind of phone do you have? I have the Fire phone which I bought to make sure of the best reading experience between devices. Used to work just fine.


I have an s6 edge, and my kindle app version on it is 7.4.0.32 in case anybody starts collecting that data


----------



## Used To Be BH

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I'm having a syncing problem between my phone and my tablet. When I switch from the tablet to the phone, it opens at the last page read on the phone, not last page read on the tablet. But, this is with a purchased book, not a KU book. Even so, it might be symptomatic of the problem with KU books. I'll have to see if that happens with a borrowed book.


I have sometimes had similar issues. As far as I can tell, if I shut down my Kindle Fire, it knows where I stopped the last time if I start reading the same book again from the same device. However, if I open the book on my phone, it doesn't have the last stopping place on the Kindle recorded, and vice versa. In other words, a fast shutdown may not allow the devices to properly sync. If I manually sync before shutting down, I don't have that same problem.

I doubt, however, that this is a source of lost pages read. If, for example, I finish a book and shut down my device immediately after, it apparently doesn't always sync the stopping point to the cloud. However, it does the next time the device is powered up, even if I don't touch that book. (Yes, I tested.) It could be an minor annoyance for a reader, but ultimately the pages get recorded.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Marcus Herzig said:


> 2. However, if you open a book, skip all the way to the end and read only the last page and then close the book, the author gets credited for the entire book even though the reader hasn't actually read all of it. This is where this bug/glitch/whatever is actually working in our favor, and I think this hasn't been mentioned in this thread before. Then again, it doesn't really help us authors much because, realistically, how many readers do that? Exactly.


This isn't part of the glitch, it's always behaved this way.

KU doesn't actually count pages. There are no pages to count- KENPC pages are just a metric to assign your book a value based on its length. They don't actually know which sequences of words are on what "page".

You get paid by the furthest point the reader reaches, percentage wise. If a reader stops at 75% of your book, you get paid for .75 x (your book's word count/number of words in one KENPC page). It's actually more complicated than that since they don't just count words to figure length and formatting is a factor, but that's the basic version of it.

Think of it this way: Pages in a real book are like pieces in a puzzle. If I pull out once piece, it's a specific thing. I can stick it back in the puzzle, then pull it out again later and it will always be the same. Just like if I rip out a page of a book and then glue it back and rip it out again the words on that page won't change.

KENPC is more like a container of liquid. Amazon knows that there's five gallons of water in my jug and they know if I pour out 5 gallons (read 20% of the book) but if I put the water back and do it again they don't know which water molecules came and went.

The glitch here appears to be that the Kindles are no longer detecting the furthest point read, or aren't recording it for some reason and only recording/reporting the last place the user _stops reading_.

So: I have a walking path. It's one mile long. Halfway along the path, there's a chair. Amazon is supposed to measure how far I walk.

Unfortunately, it can't measure my steps, or where my feet have touched, or anything else. It can only detect when I stop moving.

I walk to the end, then start back, and stop in the chair.

Instead of measuring the furthest distance I walked, which would be one mile away at the end of the path, it's just measuring the distance from my starting point to my stopping point without taking into account how I actually got there.

So it only thinks I walked a half a mile, but I actually walked the entire distance. It was supposed to put down a flag where I stopped and turned around, but instead it flagged the chair.

This is probably indicative of a large problem with the apps and devices. If they "forget" pages read because of a bug triggered by this specific user behavior they may also be forgetting pages read because of other issues raised by unexpected, or even normal, reader behavior using the Kindle platform.

This all started at a given date so there's probably some kind of a bug somewhere in the way a change or multiple changes are interacting after some kind of update early in September.


----------



## RinG

Is this flipping back to the front and pages not counting new though? Did anyone test this before the issues started in September? Maybe it has all this way, and no one knew?


----------



## AllyWho

Rinelle Grey said:


> Is this flipping back to the front and pages not counting new though?


No. it's not new, we've known about it for ages. There was a big thread months ago when it was discovered Amazon can't count actual pages read, only the location where the reader stopped. Here's one blog post from back in April about how Amazon can't count pages read, that prompted the discussion at the time. 
http://www.annchristy.com/ku-scammers-on-amazon-what-you-need-to-know/


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## Acrocanthosaurus

Even if it's already been around, it could still be tied to the ongoing issue somehow. Maybe it's not this alone but PageFlip interacts with it in some way.

If I had to bet I'd put money on there being no glitch, _singular_, but a combination of things that are causing pages not to be counted and the last location read issue is only part of the picture. It could be something as simple as the Kindles bugging out and sending readers back to the cover or the the Kindles setting a furthest read location on page one and then never updating it or something like that.

The maddening thing is that there is no way on our end for us to test all the possibilities. Honestly, we shouldn't have to. Amazon is the big company with the QA department.


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## KelliWolfe

AliceW said:


> No. it's not new, we've known about it for ages. There was a big thread months ago when it was discovered Amazon can't count actual pages read, only the location where the reader stopped. Here's one blog post from back in April about how Amazon can't count pages read, that prompted the discussion at the time.
> http://www.annchristy.com/ku-scammers-on-amazon-what-you-need-to-know/


We knew that they only calculated pages from the last position read - which is why the scammers used the link to the back of the book trick. Calculating our reads from the last position _navigated toj_ seems to be new, and part of the anti-fraud system implemented to defeat the link trick.

RETRACTED. Apparently this was known and I just missed it when I read the article the first time. Apologies, Alice. *sigh*


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Not sure if this is germane but:

Initially, when they introduced the ability to sync books across devices, it was billed as 'furthest page read'. And that's what it was. If you needed it reset to the beginning, you had to contact Amazon. This was sometimes necessary if two different people wanted to read the same book and the second didn't want it to keep opening to the end.

Sometime after this they enabled the ability for the user/account holder to reset the furthest page read through MYC&D (though it was MYK then, I think.) Better, at least.

About that time it started asking if you wanted to actually GO to that page -- so you can say 'no' and stay where you are. 

Maybe 2 years ago (?) they switched to "most recent page read". That was good for books with back matter because, before, if you went to the back to look at something, your book would continually try to sync to that point -- a problem when footnotes were really end notes and just a section at the back of the book. Now, the sync point is wherever you left off. 

Also, initially for the page to be registered, you had to exit out of the book back to home -- just closing the book on one device didn't always work. That's been improved in recent years, however.

In all cases, the user can turn syncing OFF. Useful if there are two of you on the account who frequently read the same books. Or if you only ever read on one device; you don't really need it. I think the default setting, however is ON, so one would have to go to the trouble to turn it OFF.

Of course, if the reader does all book acquisition via download to computer and leaves the wireless off, none of the above works regardless. Syncing just can't happen if the device can't 'phone home'. I think, personally, that doing this defeats one of the great features of a Kindle, but there are some who do, either out of a sense of lost privacy or because they don't have reliable wireless where they are and it just ends up being easier. Lots of people also download to remove any DRM and I have to think that would affect things as well . . . 'cause the book then loaded on the kindle is NOT the book Amazon sold them, technically. Removing DRM may be removing the ability to track pages.

Just some thoughts . . . .


----------



## RinG

KelliWolfe said:


> We knew that they only calculated pages from the last position read - which is why the scammers used the link to the back of the book trick. Calculating our reads from the last position _navigated toj_ seems to be new, and part of the anti-fraud system implemented to defeat the link trick.


Actually, if you go to the linked article, it quite clearly says that going back to the start produced no pages read in April. So this isn't a new issue.


----------



## MissingAlaska

Ann in Arlington said:


> I think, personally, that doing this defeats one of the great features of a Kindle, but there are some who do, either out of a sense of lost privacy or because they don't have reliable wireless where they are and it just ends up being easier. Lots of people also download to remove any DRM and I have to think that would affect things as well . . . 'cause the book then loaded on the kindle is NOT the book Amazon sold them, technically. Removing DRM may be removing the ability to track pages.
> 
> Just some thoughts . . . .


This is much more common than many of us realize. I follow /r/books on Reddit and frequently see discussions of this very thing. People don't like the Big Brother aspect of Amazon following how they read their books. I've also heard of readers who use KU as a way to build their library (copying the files and stripping DRM) rather than a lending library. Oddly enough, some feel that this is a way of getting back at a company that punished their favorite authors in the dispute with major publishers several years ago (they have no realization of how this affects indie publishers). We'll obviously never get page reads from this group. What percentage these readers represent and whether their numbers are growing or shrinking is the question.

Secondly, I'm still curious whether other authors are seeing problems after 5-day free runs. I'm finishing one on my most reliable seller (first time free too with almost 1,000 downloads) -- the first books of a series that normally gets about 500-1000 reads read-throughs a day. My KU numbers have plummeted to 10-20 pages. Is Amazon somehow eliminating KU page reads during the free days? Even the sequels are getting nothing (which should be the exact opposite - though it might be too early to tell).


----------



## J.A. Sutherland

So ... 60+ pages in, does anyone have a handle on where we are with this issue? Specifically:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Are any authors groups (I saw RWA mentioned) in talks with Amazon on this issue?
[*]Does anyone have a link to the actual Kindle Unlimited terms and conditions for authors? There's only one mention of it in the KDP T&C, and that's simply that "your book will be in Kindle Unlimited".[/list]
[*]Is anyone else seeing indications that this has been corrected? Or that the major issue has been corrected?
[/list]

For #3, my own data seems to indicate that whatever caused the drop in reads has been corrected:










For me, Reads dropped below sales revenue for the first time in late-May/early-June, then have rebounded in mid/late-September and returned to the ratio I'd had consistently before.


----------



## SidK

J.A. Sutherland said:


> [list type=decimal]
> [*]Is anyone else seeing indications that this has been corrected? Or that the major issue has been corrected?
> [/list]


I think Amazon is slowly but steadily making corrections and improvements. For the last few days, I have had reads on all days except one. For a period I was seeing a sequence of zero read days, that seems to have stopped.

Of course, my reads aren't back to the level before this 'issue' but that seems to support the theory of some that there may have been multiple glitches and thus Amazon is working on them one at a time.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

A KBoarder on another thread downloaded and read through a copy of one of my children's books that hasn't had a sale or page read for a few months. We wanted to see if it would generate the dreaded 1 page read if he read it to the end and went back to the beginning without closing the book. This is the date and time of his post saying that it had been done  October 21, 2016, 05:14:35 AM �. It is now October 23 and still no sign of a page read. The book is registering 0. Is this the usual length of time one has to wait, or have the page reads gone the way of all the other missing page reads?  
UPDATE
It is now 3 days with still no sign of even one page read. I've have asked KDP politely how long one is expected to wait until page reads show up. They usually respond quite promptly,(sent Sunday 9 pm my time) but no reply up to now  .


----------



## 75845

Ann in Arlington said:


> Of course, if the reader does all book acquisition via download to computer and leaves the wireless off, none of the above works regardless. Syncing just can't happen if the device can't 'phone home'. I think, personally, that doing this defeats one of the great features of a Kindle, but there are some who do, either out of a sense of lost privacy or because they don't have reliable wireless where they are and it just ends up being easier. Lots of people also download to remove any DRM and I have to think that would affect things as well . . . 'cause the book then loaded on the kindle is NOT the book Amazon sold them, technically. Removing DRM may be removing the ability to track pages.


Battery life is probably a bigger reason for turning off wifi. I always turn my Kindle onto flight mode when travelling even though its an e-Ink - its those two hour journeys just to visit friends on the other side of London that gets me worried although the Kindle battery should last a week. Another reason for turning off wifi is being near sensitive equipment and then forgetting to turn it back on again.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Mercia McMahon said:


> Battery life is probably a bigger reason for turning off wifi. I always turn my Kindle onto flight mode when travelling even though its an e-Ink - its those two hour journeys just to visit friends on the other side of London that gets me worried although the Kindle battery should last a week. Another reason for turning off wifi is being near sensitive equipment and then forgetting to turn it back on again.


sure . . . . there are good reasons to turn it off temporarily. What I'm really talking about are the people who don't use it at all. Who'd, actually, be just as happy -- or happier -- with a device that had no wireless capability at all. 'Cause turning it off sometimes will only temporarily affect things -- once you turn it back on, all the data will be sent.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> A KBoarder on another thread downloaded and read through a copy of one of my children's books that hasn't had a sale or page read for a few months. We wanted to see if it would generate the dreaded 1 page read if he read it to the end and went back to the beginning without closing the book. This is the date and time of his post saying that it had been done October 21, 2016, 05:14:35 AM �. It is now October 23 and still no sign of a page read. The book is registering 0. Is this the usual length of time one has to wait, or have the page reads gone the way of all the other missing page reads?
> UPDATE
> It is now 3 days with still no sign of even one page read. I've have asked KDP politely how long one is expected to wait until page reads show up. They usually respond quite promptly,(sent Sunday 9 pm my time) but no reply up to now .


So frustrated for you! 

I am considering including an author's note in all my KU books along the lines of this:

"Dear Reader, 
Thank you for reading this ebook. If you have borrowed this book through the Kindle Unlimited subscription program, I kindly ask that you click to the last page of this book when you are finished reading and exit the book. This will ensure that the author is properly credited for the book borrow. Thank you."


----------



## 41419

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> A KBoarder on another thread downloaded and read through a copy of one of my children's books that hasn't had a sale or page read for a few months. We wanted to see if it would generate the dreaded 1 page read if he read it to the end and went back to the beginning without closing the book. This is the date and time of his post saying that it had been done October 21, 2016, 05:14:35 AM �. It is now October 23 and still no sign of a page read. The book is registering 0. Is this the usual length of time one has to wait, or have the page reads gone the way of all the other missing page reads?
> UPDATE
> It is now 3 days with still no sign of even one page read. I've have asked KDP politely how long one is expected to wait until page reads show up. They usually respond quite promptly,(sent Sunday 9 pm my time) but no reply up to now .


Before I get worried about this, did they page through the book as quickly as possible? Or did they read it normally and then flick back to the start? I ask because Amazon might have fraud detection measures to disregard the first.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

dgaughran said:


> Before I get worried about this, did they page through the book as quickly as possible? Or did they read it normally and then flick back to the start? I ask because Amazon might have fraud detection measures to disregard the first.


It is a short children's book and he read right through as normal and even commented on the illustrations. In fact he said he read it more than once. He used a Kindle Browser reader and I confirmed that he synced it.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

michaelsnuckols said:


> Secondly, I'm still curious whether other authors are seeing problems after 5-day free runs. I'm finishing one on my most reliable seller (first time free too with almost 1,000 downloads) -- the first books of a series that normally gets about 500-1000 reads read-throughs a day. My KU numbers have plummeted to 10-20 pages. Is Amazon somehow eliminating KU page reads during the free days? Even the sequels are getting nothing (which should be the exact opposite - though it might be too early to tell).


I think Phoenix has seen some reduced effects, but I've had a good result from mine (3-7 Oct). It was a bit curious, though, because I hadn't really been affected by the pages read disaster, so far as I could tell - a slight reduction, but it could easily have been organic. But this particular book rolled over to a new Select term on 30th September, and the very next day pages read dropped from ~1500 per day to just 24, and stayed abnormally low for several days. After the free promo (4200 d/l over 5 days with paid promo every day), pages read jumped back up to normal levels again and continued to climb to (currently) 4-6K per day. Sales are well up, too, although I've kept the price at 99c so that may be having an impact. And all the other books in the series are seeing upticks in sales/pages read.

So for me, the 5-day free promo has worked really well, just as I would have expected before all these changes. But I know others are seeing reduced effectiveness, so... I dunno.


----------



## David VanDyke

AliceW said:


> No. it's not new, we've known about it for ages. There was a big thread months ago when it was discovered Amazon can't count actual pages read, only the location where the reader stopped. Here's one blog post from back in April about how Amazon can't count pages read, that prompted the discussion at the time.
> http://www.annchristy.com/ku-scammers-on-amazon-what-you-need-to-know/


Just to be clear--by "stopped" you mean "furthest page read."

Because if before, back with the TOC-at-the-back problem, KDP registered where you closed the book, they would not have cared whether the TOC was in the front or the back, and the scamlinks that sent readers to the back before starting the book again at the front wouldn't have mattered.

Now, though, in attempting to fix the "furthest page read" problem, they've apparently made it even worse, even more random, depending on when and where the user happens to close the book. If the user reads in the expected manner, all well and good. But if the user deviates, such as by going to the book's beginning or at some point in the middle, page reads never get recorded.


----------



## David VanDyke

ebbrown said:


> So frustrated for you!
> 
> I am considering including an author's note in all my KU books along the lines of this:
> 
> "Dear Reader,
> Thank you for reading this ebook. If you have borrowed this book through the Kindle Unlimited subscription program, I kindly ask that you click to the last page of this book when you are finished reading and exit the book. This will ensure that the author is properly credited for the book borrow. Thank you."


I just did this for all my books. I put a similar notice at the start and at the end of the text. I also put a note at the very end of the file saying "please close the book here to ensure the author gets paid."

I also removed the TOCs I usually put in, and I removed all front matter. In other words, I've tried to remove everything that might entice a reader to go backward in the book.

I have noticed a steady upward trend in my page reads since doing so. It may be wishful thinking, but it may be working, at least in some cases. Logically, it will gradually take effect as older versions are read and newer readers get the new versions.


----------



## David VanDyke

dgaughran said:


> Before I get worried about this, did they page through the book as quickly as possible? Or did they read it normally and then flick back to the start? I ask because Amazon might have fraud detection measures to disregard the first.


David, I don't think they have such a fraud detector.

As a test, about two weeks ago, I borrowed two of my own books, both very similar. One I clicked straight to the back and closed. One I flipped through at max speed by setting a mug on my page-down button (Kindle app). In both cases, I got a full read.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

All evidence points to the fraud detection system (which they have confirmed exists) being reader based rather than author based. An Amazon employee told a member of a forum that I belong to that the filter should only flag accounts that read thousands of books a day.

Could it be oversensitive or functioning incorrectly? It could.

I think it's highly unlikely that we as individuals could trip the fraud system ourselves and frankly, I wouldn't want to get flagged just to see how it works.


----------



## Guest

Marcus Herzig said:


> Now here's why this is less of a problem than it may seem: most people don't read a book in one go and then skip back to the beginning before they close the book. Most people will take days or even weeks to finish a book, and every time they take a break, Amazon registers the last page read and the author gets paid accordingly.


Unfortunately, we tested this extensively in an author group and, guess what. If you read the book a bit at a time, the pages do register. However, if after you reach the last page (and I'm talking two days later) you go all the way to the beginning of the book, the registered pages disappear! At least, that was the case when we tested a few days ago.


----------



## Crystal_

SummerNights said:


> Unfortunately, we tested this extensively in an author group and, guess what. If you read the book a bit at a time, the pages do register. However, if after you reach the last page (and I'm talking two days later) you go all the way to the beginning of the book, the registered pages disappear! At least, that was the case when we tested a few days ago.


I haven't been keeping careful track, but I did feel like my past income dropped in Sept vs where it was when I'd checked days before.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## 75845

SummerNights said:


> Unfortunately, we tested this extensively in an author group and, guess what. If you read the book a bit at a time, the pages do register. However, if after you reach the last page (and I'm talking two days later) you go all the way to the beginning of the book, the registered pages disappear! At least, that was the case when we tested a few days ago.


That would be unfortunate for those who go back to the title page to read the details before writing their review on Goodreads.


----------



## TromboneAl

Thanks for reading my book. I hope you enjoyed it. STOP! Whatever you do, do NOT go back to look at the cover or I will starve. Thanks again.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

SummerNights said:


> Unfortunately, we tested this extensively in an author group and, guess what. If you read the book a bit at a time, the pages do register. However, if after you reach the last page (and I'm talking two days later) you go all the way to the beginning of the book, the registered pages disappear! At least, that was the case when we tested a few days ago.


Can you lay out an exact procedure so we can test this?


----------



## sela

SummerNights said:


> Unfortunately, we tested this extensively in an author group and, guess what. If you read the book a bit at a time, the pages do register. However, if after you reach the last page (and I'm talking two days later) you go all the way to the beginning of the book, the registered pages disappear! At least, that was the case when we tested a few days ago.


Yikes!

I asked my son whether he reads all the way to the end and stops there when he reads on his Kindle. He said he always goes back to the start after he finishes the last page.  He wants to look at the cover again.


----------



## Cherise

So just put the cover again at the end of each book?


----------



## Maggie Dana

sela said:


> Yikes!
> 
> I asked my son whether he reads all the way to the end and stops there when he reads on his Kindle. He said he always goes back to the start after he finishes the last page.  He wants to look at the cover again.


Am guilty of the same behavior. Want to see that cover again. From now on, I shall exit the book, wait a few seconds, then open it again. I bet a lot of readers are like Sela's son and me.

ETA: Just read Summer Nights's post again and see that closing the book after a full read, and days later going back into it and returning to the beginning deletes all the pages read. This is bad. When I finish a book I really enjoy, I invariably go back and not only look at the cover, I re-read the first couple of pages, just to remind myself how the story began.


----------



## Guest

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> Can you lay out an exact procedure so we can test this?


We tested with six short stories that were getting zero page reads before we started borrowing them and reading them ourselves.
This is obviously a glitch that was introduced while they were trying to change/fix something. At least I hope so!


----------



## sela

Cherise said:


> So just put the cover again at the end of each book?


Brilliant fix, but my son also likes to re-read the first chapter on occasion.


----------



## Nic

sela said:


> Brilliant fix, but my son also likes to re-read the first chapter on occasion.


Essentially this means that for those readers you get circa $0,005 for a read. If this was introduced over late summer, then the drop is well explained. I've asked around among the readers of ebooks among family and friends and at least 2 in every 10 behave that way. That would account for a 20% drop.


----------



## Decon

From October 2nd to Oct 10th I had 9 page reads.  From the 11th Oct to the 25th I have had 14,863 Following a freebooksy promo on the 13th Oct. 

No complaints from me, but obviously I wouldn't want to get paid 0,005 for a full book read. I trust Amazon to get this right if they haven't already. To do otherwise would get bad press.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Original post
A KBoarder on another thread downloaded and read through a copy of one of my children's books that hasn't had a sale or page read for a few months. We wanted to see if it would generate the dreaded 1 page read if he read it to the end and went back to the beginning without closing the book. This is the date and time of his post saying that it had been done October 21, 2016, 05:14:35 AM �. It is now October 23 and still no sign of a page read. The book is registering 0. Is this the usual length of time one has to wait, or have the page reads gone the way of all the other missing page reads? 
UPDATE 1
It is now 3 days with still no sign of even one page read. I've have asked KDP politely how long one is expected to wait until page reads show up. They usually respond quite promptly,(sent Sunday 9 pm my time) but no reply up to now .
UPDATE 2
I've had the usual unhelpful reply from KDP. I made it clear that it was 3 days since the book was read, but I guess I will now have to make that 4 days and convert it to hours. I will also have to make it clear that the book was synced .

Thanks for your inquiry.
Please note that your total KENP Read can take between 24-48 hours to update in your reports. In some cases, customers' devices might not be online, but once they connect, the pages they have read will be counted.

We regularly audit and monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior. The KDP business team has not found any systematic issues impacting your results. Please note that, as always, individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors.


----------



## H.C.

Hello,

Thank you for your message. The business team audited our systems using the specific information you shared regarding pages read and sales and did not find any systematic issues impacting your results. Keep in mind that we may make adjustments in the future based on findings from our routine audits.

Here is part of the response I just received back today. Several of my friends who read my book through KU and also read other Kboard author books agreed to read my book and then check the page reads using pageflip. After reading through the whole book there were only a couple page reads generated.

Another reader I spoke with said she always reads using pageflip and I see through online comments and videos that many people are doing this. But BELOW they say no one reads like this (even though I noted in the email that videos on youtube, comments in forums, and my own readers confirm that people do indeed read this way and we are getting screwed over when someone flips to the front of the book.


Please note that individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

Regarding Page Flip, this is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior.

Regards,

Jonathan 
Kindle Direct Publishing


----------



## Going Incognito

Every time I read these Zon responses to emails from myself and all of you, all I come away with is a very official and even polite offer for us to all go enjoy pleasuring ourselves.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Going Incognito said:


> Every time I read these Zon responses to emails from myself and all of you, all I come away with is a very official and even polite offer for us to all go enjoy pleasuring ourselves.


Oh, I don't think the intent is for it to be pleasurable at all.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## KelliWolfe

Atlantisatheart said:


> The trouble is; How can they admit it?
> 
> From what we all know to be true, our readers ARE reading this way. We ARE all losing page reads, and they ARE in breach of the contract we have all signed up to every time we upload a book.
> 
> I noticed this back in July. It's obviously been a problem since they introduced page flip and as more and more readers read this way we are all starting to notice it, some of us big time.
> 
> How many millions of pages do they owe us? And with absolutely no way to count those pages how would they ever make amends for what they have done?
> 
> Obviously they can't let it continue and are probably working on a patch to catch those page reads, but they can never get the lost pages back.


I've said it before and I'll say continue saying it until it sinks in. Amazon reported an 8% drop in page reads between August and September, which is well within the normal variation from month to month. It simply doesn't leave room for a 20% across the board drop, much less the much more massive losses people are regularly reporting. That leaves two possibilities.

1. The effects of page flip and the other pages we're not being credited for are inconsequential for the most part, except for a few individual writers who are going to have to figure this out on their own with KDP support.

2. Amazon has lied about the number of page reads in their monthly reports, in which case they have no interest in ever admitting that there is any problem or making amends for diddly squat. If they do that, then they have to admit that the page reads number they reported is bogus, and they cannot do that.

Now, take your pick as to which you prefer, but those are the only two scenarios. The page read count for September is either correct, or it isn't. If it's correct, then what's been reported in this thread is a tempest in a teapot. If it is not correct, then we've got a real problem that isn't going to be solved by Amazon backfilling a few million page reads into people's reports to keep things quiet.


----------



## TromboneAl

>Obviously they can't let it continue and are probably working on a patch to catch those page reads, but they can never get the lost pages back.

My inner optimist predicts that, at some point, Amazon will say:

As a result of the recent class action against us, we have discovered an error in how our software counts the number of pages read. We have fixed this problem going forward. In addition, all authors will receive a lump-sum payment based on the overall estimate of the ratio of pages actually read to pages reported.

To clarify, we've determined that our software underestimated by 90%. So, for example, if you had 10,000 page reads during the period, you will be compensated by receiving payment for an additional 90,000 page reads.

Merry Christmas!


----------



## KelliWolfe

TromboneAl said:


> >Obviously they can't let it continue and are probably working on a patch to catch those page reads, but they can never get the lost pages back.
> 
> My inner optimist predicts that, at some point, Amazon will say:
> 
> As a result of the recent class action against us, we have discovered an error in how our software counts the number of pages read. We have fixed this problem going forward. In addition, all authors will receive a lump-sum payment based on the overall estimate of the ratio of pages actually read to pages reported.
> 
> To clarify, we've determined that our software underestimated by 90%. So, for example, if you had 10,000 page reads during the period, you will be compensated by receiving payment for an additional 90,000 page reads.
> 
> Merry Christmas!


Except that would expose them to charges of criminal fraud, as the page read counts they have reported every month don't support the assertion that there has been a massive drop in page reads for more than an insignificant number of individual authors.


----------



## H.C.

How can they continue to say that "No one reads with page flip" when readers are all over the net saying they do and writers are reporting that they have witnesses it.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Herefortheride said:


> How can they continue to say that "No one reads with page flip" when readers are all over the net saying they do and writers are reporting that they have witnesses it.


Because if they did anything else then they'd have to admit that they cannot actually measure the number of pages being read and we're not being *paid* for the actual number of pages being read, under the terms specified in the Select agreement we all signed. If they admit that we're not being paid, then writers bail from the program. If writers bail from the program, readers bail from the program. If readers bail from the program, then they're not going into the Amazon store as much and so not spending as much. And if people aren't spending as much in the store, Beelzebezos won't be able to afford to buy a new yacht next quarter.

And all for the want of a horse shoe nail.


----------



## Hope

Thanks for providing these details. The business team audited our systems using the specific information you shared regarding pages read and sales and did not find any systematic issues impacting your results. *Keep in mind that we may make adjustments in the future based on findings from our routine audits.*

Please note that individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

Regarding Page Flip, this is a navigational tool and using it for navigation does not count toward pages read by design. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior.

We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors. It helps us create a better platform for authors which in turn brings more content to Kindle readers.

Regards,

Jonathan 
Kindle Direct Publishing
http://kdp.amazon.com

Is the bolded line new? I can't remember if I had seen that in other people's responses and I'm hoping it is and that it's because they realize there is a problem. (I see herefortheride also got a response today that has the same line).


----------



## Becca Fanning

KelliWolfe said:


> I've said it before and I'll say continue saying it until it sinks in. Amazon reported an 8% drop in page reads between August and September, which is well within the normal variation from month to month. It simply doesn't leave room for a 20% across the board drop, much less the much more massive losses people are regularly reporting. That leaves two possibilities.
> 
> 1. The effects of page flip and the other pages we're not being credited for are inconsequential for the most part, except for a few individual writers who are going to have to figure this out on their own with KDP support.
> 
> 2. Amazon has lied about the number of page reads in their monthly reports, in which case they have no interest in ever admitting that there is any problem or making amends for diddly squat. If they do that, then they have to admit that the page reads number they reported is bogus, and they cannot do that.
> 
> Now, take your pick as to which you prefer, but those are the only two scenarios. The page read count for September is either correct, or it isn't. If it's correct, then what's been reported in this thread is a tempest in a teapot. If it is not correct, then we've got a real problem that isn't going to be solved by Amazon backfilling a few million page reads into people's reports to keep things quiet.


My current theory is a little different. Keep in mind that Amazon will blanket deny everything until they have an official position:

Amazon is keeping pages read in quarantine while they decide whether or not their fraud detection system is working. So while my report said X and your report said Y, we have no way of adding up all our pages in all our reports and seeing if the math makes sense. The precedent for this is when they docked pages from scammers and distributed that money to us 3+ months later in the "adjustments" line of our payments. I think they're sitting on a pool of over a billion pages read for September and they don't know what to do with them yet.

In other words, I don't think there are any authors who got our missing pages. There are too many author communities with open sharing of data that someone would've gotten word that Mary Smith's dormant bodice ripper romance suddenly got 200k page reads every day in the month of September. I think our pages were read (Pageflip and return to front "bugs" are outliers IMHO) and Amazon counted them, but they haven't distributed them to us yet. Again, just a theory.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Becca Fanning said:


> Amazon is keeping pages read in quarantine while they decide whether or not their fraud detection system is working. So while my report said X and your report said Y, we have no way of adding up all our pages in all our reports and seeing if the math makes sense. The precedent for this is when they docked pages from scammers and distributed that money to us 3+ months later in the "adjustments" line of our payments. I think they're sitting on a pool of over a billion pages read for September and they don't know what to do with them yet.


It doesn't fit the facts. The page reads have already been reported and there was not a significant drop to account for the kind of decline that is being thrown about. Why would Amazon include page reads they had detected as fraud in the monthly payout reports when the entire point is to _exclude_ those page reads so they're not paid for? That makes no sense. But for just a moment assume that they did include those page reads in the report - when they had no intention of paying for them because they had decided that they were invalid. Wouldn't that mean that Amazon _deliberately_ diluted the payout with all of these clicks they had no intention of paying for to drive the price per page rate down?

The September numbers are either right and there is nothing to see here, or Amazon has been playing with the numbers and they're about to get busted with their hand in the cookie jar. Pick one.


----------



## 75845

In relation to those noting the disparity between claims of big drops in reads and only an 8% drop in the KDP payout.

1. PageFlip is new. Most readers will only discover it when they accidentally click the middle of the page. That is how I discovered it in Google Play and I discovered the Amazon version through this thread. So until there is a universal awareness of reading via PageFlip the impact will be varied and is likely to remain so. It may appeal more to some readers than others to stay in PageFlip rather than tap back into normal mode. Butter finger types like me find it easier on a smartphone to swipe to the next page than find the invisible margin in normal mode. PageFlip may effect some genres more than others, because it attracts the sort of users who will prefer PageFlip. It is a problem of counting fish: too many imponderables.

2. Amazon can make up whatever figure they like. Putting it as an 8% drop may be them taking the financial hit in payments rather than giving a sounder basis for them to take a hit in the courts. KU has always been a case of trusting Amazon or alternatively ignoring their claims about payouts so long as your own payments kept coming in.

3.If there is an anti fraud patch problem they may be testing it on some genres or authors and not others. That would give the result of some seeing severe drops while the overall reduction is normal.

Whatever is going on I think the KU party is over for non fiction. Amazon's clumsy tinkering will hit non fiction in a future update, even if it is not disproportionately hitting it already (I suspect the latter). I'm glad that this thread helped me to get out before putting my non fiction end of month publication into KU.


----------



## Nothing To See

The page read issue is not happening solely in page flip.  If you read a book to the end in NORMAL non page-flip reading mode and click back to page 1, only 1 page counts.

Initially, we thought this was a page flip issue, but it is NOT.  This is happening in regular reading mode.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Nothing To See said:


> The page read issue is not happening solely in page flip. If you read a book to the end in NORMAL non page-flip reading mode and click back to page 1, only 1 page counts.
> 
> Initially, we thought this was a page flip issue, but it is NOT. This is happening in regular reading mode.


But as was pointed out to me earlier in this topic, that has been an ongoing issue for months. For all we know it has been going on since the inception of KU 2.0. Why would it suddenly be responsible for all the reports we've heard of people's page reads going towards zero almost overnight at the same time?


----------



## Some Random Guy

KelliWolfe said:


> It doesn't fit the facts. The page reads have already been reported and there was not a significant drop to account for the kind of decline that is being thrown about. Why would Amazon include page reads they had detected as fraud in the monthly payout reports when the entire point is to _exclude_ those page reads so they're not paid for? That makes no sense. But for just a moment assume that they did include those page reads in the report - when they had no intention of paying for them because they had decided that they were invalid. Wouldn't that mean that Amazon _deliberately_ diluted the payout with all of these clicks they had no intention of paying for to drive the price per page rate down?
> 
> The September numbers are either right and there is nothing to see here, or Amazon has been playing with the numbers and they're about to get busted with their hand in the cookie jar. Pick one.


And yet back in May, a lot of us got an adjustment to our royalty payments labelled "Multi-month KU/KOLL Adjustment" without a change in prior pages read or sales, and with no announcement from the Zon. At the time, there was speculation that they were redistributing the scammer take. In my case, it wasn't a trivial amount. They can do it again and never admit a thing or retroactively adjust pages read. If there was a problem affecting Sept that the Zon wishes to atone for without any retro adjustments, we may see another "Multi-month KU/KOLL Adjustment" in the November payout.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Eric Thomson said:


> And yet back in May, a lot of us got an adjustment to our royalty payments labelled "Multi-month KU/KOLL Adjustment" without a change in prior pages read or sales, and with no announcement from the Zon. At the time, there was speculation that they were redistributing the scammer take. In my case, it wasn't a trivial amount. They can do it again and never admit a thing or retroactively adjust pages read. If there was a problem affecting Sept that the Zon wishes to atone for without any retro adjustments, we may see another "Multi-month KU/KOLL Adjustment" in the November payout.


However that was money taken away from scammers and redistributed to others. That money was given to someone else in reports and then taken away before payouts. Who do you think Amazon is going to take money away from this time to redistribute?


----------



## KelliWolfe

Eric Thomson said:


> And yet back in May, a lot of us got an adjustment to our royalty payments labelled "Multi-month KU/KOLL Adjustment" without a change in prior pages read or sales, and with no announcement from the Zon. At the time, there was speculation that they were redistributing the scammer take. In my case, it wasn't a trivial amount. They can do it again and never admit a thing or retroactively adjust pages read. If there was a problem affecting Sept that the Zon wishes to atone for without any retro adjustments, we may see another "Multi-month KU/KOLL Adjustment" in the November payout.


But in that case the numbers were "right." Amazon simply shifted money from the page reads deemed fraudulent to those deemed legitimate.

If we assume that their numbers are right this time, then we're back to the tempest in a teapot scenario and there's not much going on that normal seasonal variation can't explain. A lot of people like Amanda are saying that this is the case with their numbers, so we can't rule this out.

Either one trusts that the numbers are essentially right and only a handful of authors are going to go round and round with Amazon until they either get an adjustment check or withdraw from Select, or the reported numbers are incorrect by a substantial amount and Amazon is going to have to come up with a very good explanation for that which doesn't also leave their previous months' reports open to attack. If they admit to screwing one month's page reads by 10%, there is going to be an immediate demand to know how and why, and whether they've under-reported the numbers in other months.


----------



## Jericho

*Got mine today.

Hello,

Thanks for providing these details. The business team audited our systems using the specific information you shared regarding pages read and did not find any systematic issues impacting your results. Please note that individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

We continue to regularly audit and monitor pages read results. We will make adjustments in the future based on findings from our routine audits.

We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors. It helps us create a better platform for authors which in turn brings more content to Kindle readers.

Regards,

Jonathan 
Kindle Direct Publishing
http://kdp.amazon.com

However, I provided them with proof that they needed to analyze this issue.

Also, I posted a new novel up under a pen at the end of last week. There was a spike in reads, as one would expect, then it went back to what my normal read count was before the novel upload, and stayed there, even though the novel has had purchases and changes in rankings.

Yesterday, I had multiple sales of the novel, it reported only three, and three page reads.

What I noticed is at 11:59 pm the page count will read one thing (for example 89, where mine was at all day long yesterday). Then precisely at 12:00am it will have a completely different reading.

Can someone please film the page reads/page count issues happening and post it to multiple locations, including here, so that other authors are aware and so Amazon can stop denying this is happening?


----------



## Some Random Guy

Amanda M. Lee said:


> However that was money taken away from scammers and redistributed to others. That money was given to someone else in reports and then taken away before payouts. Who do you think Amazon is going to take money away from this time to redistribute?


How about their own pockets? I mean if they figure out they buggered up and owe their suppliers more money, they might be inclined to sweeten the royalty payout. Is it likely? Who knows. After all, they redistributed the scammer money that no one thought we'd ever see. I was merely pointing out that the Zon has at least once, without warning, done the unexpected to fix an issue where it ended up putting more money in our pockets.


----------



## rickblackmon

Folks, we're beating a dead horse here, everything has been said ad nauseam. I've supplied numbers, ASINs, charts, emailed to Bezos multiple times and have been sent all of the canned replies also detailed. Talk about court, lawsuits, etc seems to overlook the fact we signed arbitration agreements. All the while we're agonizing over this, Amazon is playing the trump card.. It didn't happen.


----------



## Colin

rickblackmon said:


> ...Amazon is playing the trump card...


Please keep politics out of this.


----------



## David VanDyke

Jericho said:


> What I noticed is at 11:59 pm the page count will read one thing (for example 89, where mine was at all day long yesterday). Then precisely at 12:00am it will have a completely different reading.


That's because page reads run on GMT. This is normal. If you set your computer time to GMT, you will see the page read reporting without a gap. Retail sales, though, run on your local time no matter what you set your computer on, it seems.


----------



## David VanDyke

rickblackmon said:


> Folks, we're beating a dead horse here, everything has been said ad nauseam. I've supplied numbers, ASINs, charts, emailed to Bezos multiple times and have been sent all of the canned replies also detailed. Talk about court, lawsuits, etc seems to overlook the fact we signed arbitration agreements. All the while we're agonizing over this, Amazon is playing the trump card.. It didn't happen.


Arbitration agreements have no effect on criminal cases (in the US). I would like to see a cohesive organization (RWA maybe?) with some clout file a criminal complaint of fraud, if only as a wake-up call to Amazon, and to get publicity in order to put pressure on them.


----------



## boxer44

I'd be real curious to know here if anyone truly believes Amazon is committing fraud for the "relative" peanuts that a page read means, or a thousand pages or a million page reads.  Authors launched the original success of Amazon, but now, it's just one branch of many.  Sure, largest bookseller, but it's still a small branch of the entire corporation - and very unlikely to commit "fraud" intentionally.

IF, in fact, something is amiss here, it's probably a programming glitch, not an intent to defraud authors - should we notify Amazon, of course, otherwise they may never know it, or they might know it and are working on it.  We get auto-responses because that's how it operates.  Eventually, it will (or may have already) come to the attention of Amazon ... they just don't share it.  Last time, it eventually discovered the issue, and dumped money into a payout ... that doesn't sound like fraud to me.  Just sayin' ...


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## David VanDyke

boxer44 said:


> I'd be real curious to know here if anyone truly believes Amazon is committing fraud for the "relative" peanuts that a page read means, or a thousand pages or a million page reads. Authors launched the original success of Amazon, but now, it's just one branch of many. Sure, largest bookseller, but it's still a small branch of the entire corporation - and very unlikely to commit "fraud" intentionally.
> 
> IF, in fact, something is amiss here, it's probably a programming glitch, not an intent to defraud authors - should we notify Amazon, of course, otherwise they may never know it, or they might know it and are working on it. We get auto-responses because that's how it operates. Eventually, it will (or may have already) come to the attention of Amazon ... they just don't share it. Last time, it eventually discovered the issue, and dumped money into a payout ... that doesn't sound like fraud to me. Just sayin' ...


For me, the issue is putting pressure on them to fix the situation. Is it fraud? The effect is the same, if not rectified. I'm not interested in harming Amazon, just in forcefully demanding they correct the problem.


----------



## Becca Fanning

KelliWolfe said:


> It doesn't fit the facts.


It's a little bit of a leap but I think it fits the facts.



> The page reads have already been reported and there was not a significant drop to account for the kind of decline that is being thrown about.


And that's my point. What we know is that in the month of September, the KDP pool was $15.9m (I think) and the page read rate was .00497. That means that there were 3.199 billion pages read. What we assume is that if I added up my pages read with yours and every other authors that we would reach 3.199 billion pages read. I don't think that happened. I think if you added them all up, you would reach a lower number. The other pages are still being sorted out.



> Why would Amazon include page reads they had detected as fraud in the monthly payout reports when the entire point is to _exclude_ those page reads so they're not paid for? That makes no sense.


Well, it makes no sense if everything is working properly. I think they know something isn't right, because they've never experienced this kind of scrutiny with their technical systems on this scale. The problem is (I'm guessing) that they haven't figured out the issue yet.



> But for just a moment assume that they did include those page reads in the report - when they had no intention of paying for them because they had decided that they were invalid.


Clearly fraudulent pages are, I assume, discarded. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the ones missing from the authors who are all reporting drops of 30-70%.



> Wouldn't that mean that Amazon _deliberately_ diluted the payout with all of these clicks they had no intention of paying for to drive the price per page rate down?


I think they took all the pages reported and are still figuring out how/if to credit a portion of them. It's better to lowball our payout now and come back with bonus adjustments later than to bump the page rate to 0065 or something and then realize that they need to either reduce the rate to pay for legit pages or dump another 6mil into the fund.



> The September numbers are either right and there is nothing to see here, or Amazon has been playing with the numbers and they're about to get busted with their hand in the cookie jar. Pick one.


*shrug* The only one who knows for sure is Amazon. I'm just floating a theory. All I want is assurance of proper credit for what we earn.


----------



## sela

I think this flip back to the front glitch is new or else the link scammers from earlier in the year wouldn't have made any money. They relied on readers clicking to the back before reading the first story. I bet this is a new program element aimed at preventing all those intervening pages being counted as "read".


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## G.L. Snodgrass

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't 100 percent of the KU poll get distributed to authors. (Plus any money Amazon kicks in._ Amazon isn't making money off of KU. There is no incentive to defraud. Amazon doesn't care if Author x or Author Y has the pages read. Unless the readers get upset because of scamming. Their only incentive is to keep the readers happy and enough authors happy that they stay in KU.

Overall page reads in all of KU for September decreased by 6 percent. It could either be seasonal or a computer glitch. Either way, if the problem was the same across all authors, the loss in page reads would be made up in the increase of the percentage of the payout.

If the loss was not equal across all authors - Why not? The problem will not get resolved until someone can show amazon that *all* authors who did X had a drop in page reads when compared to Authors who did Y.

The page flip issue. The 1 page read due to returning to the beginning, etc. may have resulted in reduced pages being read, but Amazon believes that should impact all authors equally and therefor be made up in the increased payout percentage.

What is unique or different about those authors who report 20-90% drop off Was it the server they were on? Was it the day they loaded their books? Was it a corrupted database file? Was it the normal ups and downs. I don't know.

I'm not questioning whether it happened. I am questioning the charges of fraud. There is no incentive for Amazon to risk it. Not for the piddling amount when compared to the rest of the store. If Amazon gained a reputation for *Intentionally* defrauding its suppliers over a system that was a loss leader. It would be one of the dumbest business moves in the history of commerce. And Amazon isn't in the business of making dumb mistakes.

I'm not saying Amazon hasn't made a mistake here. I am saying, Fraud was not it.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Jericho

David VanDyke said:


> That's because page reads run on GMT. This is normal. If you set your computer time to GMT, you will see the page read reporting without a gap. Retail sales, though, run on your local time no matter what you set your computer on, it seems.


Thanks for clarifying. That puts my mind at ease for that issue.

Has anyone that you know of filmed or done a screencast of the page reads to have video proof this is happening?

Personally, I've had concerns about uploading any projects out of fear they won't get credited.


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## Guest

I think KU1 was a far better model, which should have been tweaked to factor in book length and paying out a flat fee.
Novels... your full rate
Novellas and shorts... half (maybe?)
Special art books, comics, picture books... full or half (dunno)
Then, when you add your metadata to the dashboard for a new release... you get the expected pay based on a borrow.
Please don't tell me about scammers... the current model they are trying to make work to beat scammers has failed. Maybe more so than KU1
At least with a hybrid tier system they don't have to engineer a complex and convoluted system to count pages, which they can never correctly track due to a readers habit.
The whole thing is ridiculous.


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## Amanda M. Lee

Andrew Murray said:


> I think KU1 was a far better model, which should have been tweaked to factor in book length and paying out a flat fee.
> Novels... your full rate
> Novellas and shorts... half (maybe?)
> Special art books, comics, picture books... full or half (dunno)
> Then, when you add your metadata to the dashboard for a new release... you get the expected pay based on a borrow.
> Please don't tell me about scammers... the current model they are trying to make work to beat scammers has failed. Maybe more so than KU1
> At least with a hybrid tier system they don't have to engineer a complex and convoluted system to count pages, which they can never correctly track due to a readers habit.
> The whole thing is ridiculous.


All that's going to do is make everyone who only wants to milk the pool put a $9.99 price on everything and add 80 "bonus books" in so they can get a larger payout.


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## G.L. Snodgrass

Atlantisatheart said:


> Sorry, you're wrong.
> 
> It is contractual fraud.
> 
> You signed a contract with Amazon and in it they said that they get the exclusive rights to your book and in return they collect every page read which is entered into a pot and each page is worth a token amount for that month.
> 
> Now they have admitted that they designed page flip that does not count pages read, ergo, just one page read in page flip means that Amazon are defrauding that author out of that token payment.
> 
> It isn't even ignorance of the law. They admitted that they designed it that way. Under fraud law (in the UK) anything that is known to circumvent paying what is owed is fraud - whether you believed a specific design would be used in a certain way is irrelevant - it can - it is - therefore it is fraud. Not because the intent was there, but because they did not consider what would hapen if it was used in that way - ergo - Ignorance of the law is no defence.


We will have to agree to disagree.

1. The contract I signed says that the laws of the U.S. and Washington state apply to this contract. I live in Washington state, but I assume that the contract is that way because Amazon is headquartered here.

I don't know about your contract, but this is what mine says.

... We (amazon) will set, *in our discretion*, the criteria for determining how much of your content is read ...

BOLD added by me.

-- The rest is a theory --

2. I am not saying that all pages are being read. I am saying that Amazon believes that the design is the same for everyone and therefore any discrepancies would be equal across the board and be made up in the larger percentage of payout. If Page flip is resulting in 10% fewer pages for everyone but that results in the page read payout increasing 10% then authors are getting the same amount of money. Plus Amazon is kicking in extra money, more than enough to cover any minor discrepancies. So authors are getting more than Amazon is obligated to pay.
3. To prove fraud, you would have to prove that their design hurt some authors more than others? And that, once they knew it, they took no steps to fix it. I would argue that if you or anyone could prove such a thing, something more than anecdotal evidence. Amazon would move heaven and earth to fix it and kick in enough money to cover peoples losses. But, to prove it, you would have to show how author doing X was treated different than author doing Y. And that this differences were not a breach of the TOS on the author's part. At some point in the future Amazon or someone may prove that this is going on. Or maybe someone already has proven it and Amazon may very well be moving heaven and earth as we talk.
4. I don't think Page Flip or 1 page payout if readers return to the beginning are a failure. I am saying that Amazon did it intentionally. (Matching Google +, Anti-scamming). Amazon believed if it impacted authors, it would impact them all the same and be made up in the larger payout.

Question? if you got paid the same amount of money whether Page Flip or 1 page reporting was enabled or not. Would it still be fraud? I believe Amazon would make the argument that you where getting the same amount. It might be a bad argument. But it would take a lot to prove the opposite in a court of law.

Again, I am not saying there is no problem, nor am I saying that Amazon is correct in denying there is a problem. I am saying that I don't believe it would be considered fraud.


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## Acrocanthosaurus

Whether or not it's justified legally with weasel words it's still am amazing breach of trust.

They have a real pattern of this. The whole thing is incredibly deceptive.


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## Guest

Amanda M. Lee said:


> All that's going to do is make everyone who only wants to milk the pool put a $9.99 price on everything and add 80 "bonus books" in so they can get a larger payout.


Err... how so? I meant a flat fee in the sense of $1.50 or whatever it was before... I think you misunderstood my point.


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## Guest

So...
$ 1.50 for a borrow on a novel, picture book, or non fiction boxset
$ 0.75 for a short story or novella


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## KelliWolfe

Andrew Murray said:


> So...
> $ 1.50 for a borrow on a novel, picture book, or non fiction boxset
> $ 0.75 for a short story or novella


This puts us right back to the situation we had at the beginning of the year where Amazon was being flooded by scamlets of material mostly scraped from the web and dumped into a short. Quick and easy to put together, requires very little sophistication for the scripts that automate the process, and you can hit the 10% payout trigger simply by opening the book so your click farmers can work through a ton of them in a hurry.

There is no way to scam-proof KU. It is going to attract scammers like garbage attracts flies because of the nature of the system. It's like a slot machine that pays out $10 every time you put in a quarter. It's easy money for very low up-front costs and there's no penalty for getting caught, other than losing your account. Well, we know that the scammers have no trouble at all opening new accounts when one gets shut down, and most of them are already running multiple accounts. So no matter what Amazon does, they're going to be playing catch-up with the scammers. Even if Amazon were to hire people to personally vet every book that went into KU, the scammers would just hire dirt-cheap ghostwriters from India or The Philippines to provide "real" content for their click farms.

Right now, all you have to do is have a KU subscriber borrow more than 2038 pages to break even on the subscription cost. Lots of romance readers blow through that in a week. For the cost of a month subscription you can make $40 back without the subscriber going out of the bounds of normal reader behavior. There's no way to fix that without either seriously reducing the payout per page or increasing the effective cost of the subscription, either by making it cost more or by limiting the number of books that can be borrowed in a month.


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## G.L. Snodgrass

Atlantisatheart said:


> Under UK law the burden of proof would be with Amazon to show that each author's readers were reading in exactly the same way.
> Under the law the word 'assumed' would be proof of negligence. They would have to show hard facts that each and every author was treated in exactly the same way.
> Obviously each author is not getting the same amount that they would get were there not a problem with page flip.
> 
> The most glaringly obvious problem with your proposed reasoning would be. How many of my readers read with a device that can not support page flip and how many of yours do? How many of my readers turn back to the front cover to see the hunky half naked guy as opposed to a sunset on another book? How many readers close their book at the end as opposed to at the beginning?
> 
> Without the cold hard facts from every reader - Amazon can't make the assumption that all authors are paid equally and fairly.


I am saying that to get a case of Criminal Fraud (Vice Arbitration) accepted to be tried. you, or in this case, the federal or state prosecutor would have to show that someone had been injured. You would have to convince the prosecutor that author X was treated differently and it was in a large enough amount or to enough people to justify the case. Amazon would argue that all authors were treated to the same "Discretion" and if their was any discrepancy, it was more than covered by the extra money they kicked in.

In all honesty, Nothing I have seen or read would convince a prosecutor to open a criminal complaint against Amazon. They'd get laughed out of court.

Again, I am not saying your pages are being counted accurately. I am saying that Amazon believes they are being counted in accordance with Amazon's algorhythm and that algorhythm meets the requirements of the contract.

Please don't take this to mean that I agree with Amazon's methods or policies. I am only saying that I don't believe you could get this tried in court as a criminal case of fraud.


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## SomeoneElse

G.L. Snodgrass said:


> 3. To prove fraud, you would have to prove that their design hurt some authors more than others? And that, once they knew it, they took no steps to fix it. I would argue that if you or anyone could prove such a thing, something more than anecdotal evidence. Amazon would move heaven and earth to fix it and kick in enough money to cover peoples losses. But, to prove it, you would have to show how author doing X was treated different than author doing Y.


There's no way it affects everyone equally.

The overarching argument to everyone being affected equally assumes that large numbers will iron everything out. On average - it's assumed - everyone's readers will use page flip in the same numbers. But hand-waving and saying the pages you do get are worth more doesn't account for the little guy. And there are far more little guys.

Say 20% of readers use page flip. An author with sufficient volume will be down 20% on reads, but can be compensated with a 20% increase in payout (or dismissed with the idea that 20% of all pages went unrecorded, so it's still a 'fair' payout compared to others.)

Now imagine an author who gets about 2 borrows (with full reads) a month. If one of his readers uses page flip, he's down 50% on his income. Maybe the payout compensates for a person down 20% on their income, but that extra 30% is basically stolen from him.

Okay, you might say, but he could get 2 readers without it the next month and get 100%. Which is 'unfair' the other way. So in the long run, it should all work out. Except you're only locked in to KU for 3 months, which is nowhere near long enough to guarantee someone with single digit borrows per month gets the right amount overall.

Sure, it's small amounts of money, but as an author with a tiny readership, those dollars really do matter.


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## Guest

KelliWolfe said:


> This puts us right back to the situation we had at the beginning of the year where Amazon was being flooded by scamlets of material mostly scraped from the web and dumped into a short. Quick and easy to put together, requires very little sophistication for the scripts that automate the process, and you can hit the 10% payout trigger simply by opening the book so your click farmers can work through a ton of them in a hurry.
> 
> There is no way to scam-proof KU. It is going to attract scammers like garbage attracts flies because of the nature of the system. It's like a slot machine that pays out $10 every time you put in a quarter. It's easy money for very low up-front costs and there's no penalty for getting caught, other than losing your account. Well, we know that the scammers have no trouble at all opening new accounts when one gets shut down, and most of them are already running multiple accounts. So no matter what Amazon does, they're going to be playing catch-up with the scammers. Even if Amazon were to hire people to personally vet every book that went into KU, the scammers would just hire dirt-cheap ghostwriters from India or The Philippines to provide "real" content for their click farms.
> 
> Right now, all you have to do is have a KU subscriber borrow more than 2038 pages to break even on the subscription cost. Lots of romance readers blow through that in a week. For the cost of a month subscription you can make $40 back without the subscriber going out of the bounds of normal reader behavior. There's no way to fix that without either seriously reducing the payout per page or increasing the effective cost of the subscription, either by making it cost more or by limiting the number of books that can be borrowed in a month.


Well, of late, we've had a slurry of hastily written novels... some complete gibberish as if written by a machine, (there was some thread about it somewhere here) so... dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. And this page read thing is evidently not working. Scammers found a way and now, as a result, real author's are getting a whack.


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## ......~......

Andrew Murray said:


> So...
> $ 1.50 for a borrow on a novel, picture book, or non fiction boxset
> $ 0.75 for a short story or novella


Put picture books in the $0.75 category and you might be onto something.


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## Guest

NeedWant said:


> Put picture books in the $0.75 category and you might be onto something.


Why?
Do you know how long a decent picture book takes to produce? I wrote and drew mine... it took me almost six months. Just as labor intensive as a novel, of which I've also produced under a pen name.


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## SomeoneElse

Andrew Murray said:


> Why?
> Do you know how long a decent picture book takes to produce? I wrote and drew mine... it took me almost six months. Just as labor intensive as a novel, of which I've also produced under a pen name.


While I respect that a lot of work goes into it, artists have never been paid on how long it took them to make a work. I spent 7 years tinkering with my first published novel. Some writers churn books out in 3 months - and many of those books have earned far more than mine.


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## ......~......

Andrew Murray said:


> Why?
> Do you know how long a decent picture book takes to produce? I wrote and drew mine... it took me almost six months. Just as labor intensive as a novel, of which I've also produced under a pen name.


They're short. If a novella gets $0.75 then so should a picture book. As far as how long it takes, that varies person to person. Some take months to write novellas as well. Readers certainly get more reading time with a novella than a picture book.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## TheLass

NeedWant said:


> Readers certainly get more reading time with a novella than a picture book.


Lol, adult readers perhaps.


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## Guest

NeedWant said:


> They're short. If a novella gets $0.75 then so should a picture book. As far as how long it takes, that varies person to person. Some take months to write novellas as well. Readers certainly get more reading time with a novella than a picture book.


Oh, I hear ya.  True about novellas, too. In fact, shorts can be harder to produce sometimes... less words to waste.
Yeah, as a picture book writer and illustrator I'd take 0.75 cents over the 2 cents I'd currently make. Sorry for my confusion. been a long day... a long life!!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest

Readers certainly get more reading time with a novella than a picture book.

Err... tell that to a parent with two young kids!!!!!!!!!! The re-read is huge!  I'll take Tolkien over Peppa Pig, any day!

You know what? My perspective is more from the art side. The craft of bright illustrations can be draining time wise. The best picture books can be little works of art.


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## ......~......

Andrew Murray said:


> Readers certainly get more reading time with a novella than a picture book.
> 
> Err... tell that to a parent with two young kids!!!!!!!!!! The re-read is huge!  I'll take Tolkien over Peppa Pig, any day!
> 
> You know what? My perspective is more from the art side. The craft of bright illustrations can be draining time wise. The best picture books can be little works of art.


Since when is writing not an art?

Picture books aren't a good fit for something like KU, not in its current form anyway.


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## ......~......

TheLass said:


> Lol, adult readers perhaps.


Aren't the adults usually the ones reading to their kids?


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## Guest

NeedWant said:


> Since when is writing not an art?
> 
> Picture books aren't a good fit for something like KU, not in its current form anyway.


I never said it wasn't... what are you on about? LOL Hey, I write myself... I have a pen name. I know the effort it takes to write. Picture books would be a good thing for KU if the model was changed like I suggested. It is my suggestion, my idea, my point of view... that's all.


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## ......~......

Andrew Murray said:


> I never said it wasn't... what are you on about? LOL Hey, I write myself... I have a pen name. I know the effort it takes to write. Picture books would be a good thing for KU if the model was changed like I suggested. It is my suggestion, my idea, my point of view... that's all.


And I disagreed with your suggestion. I don't think picture books should be paid as much as novels. Sorry if that upsets you.


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## G.L. Snodgrass

Atlantisatheart said:


> Maybe not in the US, but in the EU, especially the UK, we love an underdog and we love to nail big foreign companies to the cross.
> 
> But still, it's a moot point. I can't really see anyone bothering to take Amazon on in the courts for any reason - although, let's be honest, Amazon would rather pay out than have to go with full disclosure of it's tech and dirty little secrets.
> 
> I'd have to agree with my son here when he says that - when you want something done these days it's better to appeal to friends in a group like anonymous than to the courts. Now that would make a statement to Amazon if they lost days of business and money earned each month, they might then understand how we feels, and it might only be a 'drop in the ocean' where Amazon's finances are concerned, but then apparently so is our page reads.


Wow! Just Wow!!


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## G.L. Snodgrass

LSMay said:


> There's no way it affects everyone equally.
> 
> The overarching argument to everyone being affected equally assumes that large numbers will iron everything out. On average - it's assumed - everyone's readers will use page flip in the same numbers. But hand-waving and saying the pages you do get are worth more doesn't account for the little guy. And there are far more little guys.
> 
> Say 20% of readers use page flip. An author with sufficient volume will be down 20% on reads, but can be compensated with a 20% increase in payout (or dismissed with the idea that 20% of all pages went unrecorded, so it's still a 'fair' payout compared to others.)
> 
> Now imagine an author who gets about 2 borrows (with full reads) a month. If one of his readers uses page flip, he's down 50% on his income. Maybe the payout compensates for a person down 20% on their income, but that extra 30% is basically stolen from him.
> 
> Okay, you might say, but he could get 2 readers without it the next month and get 100%. Which is 'unfair' the other way. So in the long run, it should all work out. Except you're only locked in to KU for 3 months, which is nowhere near long enough to guarantee someone with single digit borrows per month gets the right amount overall.
> 
> Sure, it's small amounts of money, but as an author with a tiny readership, those dollars really do matter.


I don't disasgree. Unfortunately, Accordding to the contract, Amazon gets to decide what page reads mean. It might not be fair, but that doesn't make it fraud.


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## Guest

LSMay said:


> While I respect that a lot of work goes into it, artists have never been paid on how long it took them to make a work. I spent 7 years tinkering with my first published novel. Some writers churn books out in 3 months - and many of those books have earned far more than mine.


Funny thing about this point, and it's not that I disagree with you, is that I could swear we had the same debate when KU2 first rolled around... with novelists crying victory that at last their labor intensive books would be rewarded better than those pesky snappy shorts. 
Funny how things change... how fickle the industry is.
I still stand by the fact that I'd reward art books the same as novels. I have written a novel ( two actually ) and have produced a picture book ( I know the challenges and work that has gone into each ) both equal in terms of craftsmanship it took to produce.
Anyway, this is swinging off topic.
The novelist in me would like KU2 to morph into something better.


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## Moist_Tissue

Atlantisatheart said:


> I'd have to agree with my son here when he says that - when you want something done these days it's better to appeal to friends in a group like anonymous than to the courts.


I'm sorry. I might be misreading you, but are you advocating for a hacker group--like anonymous--to take down Amazon because a handful of authors are having issues with page reads?


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## Guest

NeedWant said:


> Picture books aren't necessarily art books, at least in my opinion. Their art is...simplistic at best.


 Okay, I get it... you don't like picture books.


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## ......~......

Moist_Tissue said:


> I'm sorry. I might be misreading you, but are you advocating for a hacker group--like anonymous--to take down Amazon because a handful of authors are having issues with page reads?


Yes. Because if they're suffering why shouldn't all authors?


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## Guest

NeedWant said:


> They have their place. Do I think they should be paid as much as novels which take considerably more effort to produce? Absolutely not.


Last comment... because we are really derailing this thread... but novels do not take considerably more effort to produce. That is such a blanket statement. Some do, sure, but some don't. I've written two novels over three months... both doing pretty well. The picture books took longer for me and for significantly less reward.


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## phoenixwaller

NeedWant said:


> They have their place. Do I think they should be paid as much as novels which take considerably more effort to produce? Absolutely not.


I don't make picture books, so I don't have a dog in this race...

However, having dealt with a range of artists from $20,000 for a single painting fine artist to web comic artists, I know the effort they have to put in. Honestly people who use regular characters have it even harder because they have to practice a TON in order to consistently draw a single character, just like a historical fiction author will research to get all the details right.

At the end of the day they're two different skill sets, so it's hard to equate, but from my interactions I know several artists who are amazed that I can write about them over and over, while I'm easily as impressed by their work. There is easily just as much effort IMHO to make a quality picture book as there is in a novel.

That said, KU really is not a good platform for picture books. The short nature is one reason, the other is that kids like the re-read but an author only gets paid for the one, and at those half a cent per page prices it makes more sense to me to just sell them outright.


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## ......~......

phoenixwaller said:


> That said, KU really is not a good platform for picture books. The short nature is one reason, the other is that kids like the re-read but an author only gets paid for the one, and at those half a cent per page prices it makes more sense to me to just sell them outright.


That I can agree with. I'm mainly talking about picture books in KU. It's not a good place for them and I wouldn't put mine in if I did picture books. Plus, I would think they would do better as print editions anyway.


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## Betsy the Quilter

A quick lock to let me catch up. Check out some of our many other threads while I read!

_EDIT: OK, I've removed a few posts that derailed the thread. Let's everyone agree to disagree (or agree to agree as the case may be) on the subject of picture books vs novels as that is NOT what this thread is about. Further discussion on that subject WILL be removed. Thanks._

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Atlantisatheart

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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

My head hurts trying to make any sense of the last couples pages.


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## Guest

Atlantisatheart said:


> It always amazed me when Amazon claimed that they wanted people to visit the store to 'rent' a book more frequently because they stayed and purchased more.
> 
> Let's see; one download of a novel that will take eight hours to read, or two to three visits a night to get shorts and novella's? I think their math is off. Hopefully they've realised that and will go back to something resembling KU1 in the near future to get more footfall.


I don't know why they would go back to the KU1 model. Right now they have all the numbers, data and control. Introduce page flip, manufacture KU so turning to the beginning of the book erases pages read, throw in a supersonic fraudulent detection system to systematically erase whatever, adjust KENPC, lower the page per payout. All the bestsellers are scared of getting pushed back in the store by dropping out of KU, and all the midlist are forced to stay in to be competitive at all. The other chains continue to die out and Amazon reigns supreme.


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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Some Random Guy

Atlantisatheart said:


> True. It's just a matter of time before the big five get on their knees to Amazon and indies won't matter anymore anyway.


And then, it's the end of the world as we know it


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## Moist_Tissue

Atlantisatheart said:


> So, it's okay for some of us to lose money as long as it isn't you - got it.


Wow. This mindset is unbelievable. You want to take down the entire system of Amazon, which would not only impact all authors, but it would also impact other vendors who rely on Amazon as their primary means of business. It would also affect customers and their banks who would need to issue new credit or debit cards to the millions of customers whose account information was breached through a hack.

But as long as you feel justified because you may have lost--what? A dozen? A hundred? A thousand page reads? Okay.


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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## 555aaa

I don't think that there is something nefarious going on, but I do think that Amazon uses KU to experiment with different models (and code) for subscription services that they might want to roll out in bigger markets. The amount of money involved is pretty small for a company with over $100 billion in annual sales. The KU team is probably pretty tiny. I know that's not an excuse. 

ETA: What makes KU inherently scammable is that it is both unlimited and has a high artist payout. On a service like Spotify, there's an unlimited $10 monthly subscription, but the artist payout is around 0.1 to 0.2 cents per track, so a scambot would have to stream 10,000 plays of the same song to break even. It's just not practical. It's also a losing proposition for 99% of the artists there.


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## sela

555aaa said:


> I don't think that there is something nefarious going on, but I do think that Amazon uses KU to experiment with different models (and code) for subscription services that they might want to roll out in bigger markets. The amount of money involved is pretty small for a company with over $100 billion in annual sales. The KU team is probably pretty tiny. I know that's not an excuse.


Thank you. I think people using the fraud term are wrong. If anything, the September fiasco is probably the result of Amazon's attempt to prevent the scams that we all have been complaining about since KU was instituted.

It's true that KU and even book sales are a small part of Amazon's overall business. Losing thousands of page reads due to a glitch in an anti-fraud program is a huge thing for us indie authors, but it's like a flea on an elephant to Amazon.


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## Nic

G.L. Snodgrass said:


> I am saying that to get a case of Criminal Fraud (Vice Arbitration) accepted to be tried. you, or in this case, the federal or state prosecutor would have to show that someone had been injured. You would have to convince the prosecutor that author X was treated differently and it was in a large enough amount or to enough people to justify the case. Amazon would argue that all authors were treated to the same "Discretion" and if their was any discrepancy, it was more than covered by the extra money they kicked in.
> 
> In all honesty, Nothing I have seen or read would convince a prosecutor to open a criminal complaint against Amazon. They'd get laughed out of court.
> 
> Again, I am not saying your pages are being counted accurately. I am saying that Amazon believes they are being counted in accordance with Amazon's algorhythm and that algorhythm meets the requirements of the contract.
> 
> Please don't take this to mean that I agree with Amazon's methods or policies. I am only saying that I don't believe you could get this tried in court as a criminal case of fraud.


Amazon has to abide by the laws of the markets it sells in, meaning that UK or EU laws apply for UK and EU authors. Amazon has local headquarters in the UK and in Luxembourg, never mind that it has to abide by local laws anyway already.

If you now respond by saying that then they will stop the KDP program in the UK or the EU, then think again. This could be enough to yank a very long tail here in Europe, and Amazon just might have to reconsider selling anything at all here. Not just books. Losing their EU market share should be big enough a chunk to demand even Amazon's closer attention. Google tried it with both France and the EU, and ended up accepting legal constraints rather than opting out of the EU market.


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## Guest

RWA has confirmed that they are reaching out to Amazon about this. Let's see what happens.


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## Nic

SummerNights said:


> RWA has confirmed that they are reaching out to Amazon about this. Let's see what happens.


If they do that, and it's proven, then I will sign up for an affiliate membership just to support them.


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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## TheLass

SummerNights said:


> RWA has confirmed that they are reaching out to Amazon about this. Let's see what happens.


The advantage of having a union (association/organisation/whatever you want to call it) acting for you. Shame there isn't one for indie authors, you'd imagine it would have a lot of clout.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Atlantisatheart said:


> Actually, I've lost somewhere in the region of 1.5-2 million pages, but who's counting right? Certainly not Amazon.


The kicker is that despite all of the analysis and speculation, none of us really know for sure how much we lost. We can do our own experiments, (like Jan and others did) and see that pages are not being counted, but we don't know exactly how many pages we lost in total. We don't have access to Amazon's data. It could be two hundred or two gazillion.

I had six books in KU that never really did a lot of page reads - over the last 2 months I had tons of "1 page read" days. Although they had a moderate amount of paid sales, I just thought they were poor performers in KU. However, when I yanked 3 books from wide (my steady sellers) and put them in KU, I was shocked to see suddenly 10-25K page reads per day. My graph completely spiked UP right around the time everyone else was reporting problems. It seems a little hinkey that all of a sudden putting 3 more books in KU would cause such a drastic change, but there it is.

I agree that it would be fabulous if RWA tried to hash through the issue with Amazon.


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## Atlantisatheart

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## Abalone

An indie-author's union sounds interesting. I'm afraid it won't work because everyone has their own thing to do and wouldn't have time for the required meetings, the dues would have to vary between persons and we'd never decide on a cover for our union guide.


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## Colin

Abalone said:


> An indie-author's union sounds interesting. I'm afraid it won't ..... and we'd never decide on a cover for our union guide.


And you'd have to formulate a powerful blurb.... er....mission statement!


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## boxer44

Anyone wonder if a part of the "down in sales and reads" comes from Amazon marketing some of the authors it has corralled into its own labels.  It has several different models (Kindle Scout, etc) that it now contracts and promotes.  That alone will impact the individual Indie market in the sense that at the very least it will "steal" new readers from any author, and even the established authors with a good following will not gain new readers.  

It's probably not the entire picture here, but any authors Amazon picks up in it's support programs will more likely gain readers at a higher rate than most Indies will - it's too tough to compete at the PR level with a company like Amazon -


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## crow.bar.beer

Abalone said:


> An indie-author's union sounds interesting. I'm afraid it won't work because everyone has their own thing to do and wouldn't have time for the required meetings, the dues would have to vary between persons and we'd never decide on a cover for our union guide.


It's also illegal for us to form a union. The most we can do is an association like RWA that dabbles in advocacy and awareness and stuff like that. *shrugs


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## JVRudnick

Does anyone care to share what they've written to put in their books about this to the reader?

Something like 'please do not close the book on any other page than the last one as Zon is...." type of thingy?

Is there a general consensus of what you can/should/must say?


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## Moist_Tissue

Amazon recently had the big breakfast with a few invited indie authors. Was this issue discussed?

Re: alliances

Author Fringe is an alliance of indie authors who do training and conferences (I believe). Why not connect with them or the already existing orgs.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

boxer44 said:


> Anyone wonder if a part of the "down in sales and reads" comes from Amazon marketing some of the authors it has corralled into its own labels. It has several different models (Kindle Scout, etc) that it now contracts and promotes. That alone will impact the individual Indie market in the sense that at the very least it will "steal" new readers from any author, and even the established authors with a good following will not gain new readers.
> 
> It's probably not the entire picture here, but any authors Amazon picks up in it's support programs will more likely gain readers at a higher rate than most Indies will - it's too tough to compete at the PR level with a company like Amazon -


That wouldn't explain why my children's book, that I know was read, still shows 0 page reads after 4 days. Or does Amazon have children's books in their Kindle Scout programme?


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## Guest

Amazon can say whatever they want but the fact that right now they are releasing people immediately from KU when they ask speaks volumes.
They know something's wrong.


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## 75845

SummerNights said:


> Amazon can say whatever they want but the fact that right now they are releasing people immediately from KU when they ask speaks volumes.
> They know something's wrong.


They are not doing this on request, but when the request comes with the words "breach of contract." They only responded to my request , made before the Page Flip admission, when I sent a second email using the Page Flip admission as the basis of a breach of contract claim.


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## Guest

Mercia McMahon said:


> They are not doing this on request, but when the request comes with the words "breach of contract." They only responded to my request , made before the Page Flip admission, when I sent a second email using the Page Flip admission as the basis of a breach of contract claim.


I did not use the words you mention. I did mention this thread though, lol. They took my books out of Select within hours (I only had two books in but still...) Other authors are reporting the same.


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## 75845

Atlantisatheart said:


> Well flea bites can go septic. Wasn't Al Capone jailed for tax evasion? Amazon have already been taken to task in the EU for dodging taxes on digital downloads, and this might just be what governments need to get them to pay the taxes that they've been dodging as well. That's billions of dollars. It only takes one little thing to bring down a giant. We might be fleas to Amazon, but then Amazon is just a tick to the EU.


Best to stick to the facts. Al Capone was imprisoned for tax evasion because the court found that he had evaded taxes. Amazon are not charged with evading tax, but of colluding in illegal state aid from Luxembourg in order to legally avoid tax, who ironically were led at the time by the guy who is now President of the European Commission that is bringing the case. It is similar to the case against Ireland and Apple, but the Irish case is far more likely to succeed. The Luxembourg case was a matter of using an EU wide ruling on VAT, while the Irish case is about Ireland's own tax laws. If they are true to form the EU is more likely to find in favour of the company benefiting from an EU law. I suspect that both cases will fail, as I think that Ireland will win its appeal against the judgement that Apple owes them billions in tax and the Luxembourg case will probably stall if that happens.

I doubt that a fraud charge could be made to stick under English law as that involves an intention to obtain money or withhold payments. It might be theft, but that crime can be committed accidentally, whereas I believe fraud has to be intentional.


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## Ros_Jackson

Abalone said:


> An indie-author's union sounds interesting. I'm afraid it won't work because everyone has their own thing to do and wouldn't have time for the required meetings, the dues would have to vary between persons and we'd never decide on a cover for our union guide.


ALLi is worth considering: https://www.allianceindependentauthors.org/ I'm not a member though so I can't comment on its value.


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## Atlantisatheart

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## RuthNestvold

SummerNights said:


> Amazon can say whatever they want but the fact that right now they are releasing people immediately from KU when they ask speaks volumes.
> They know something's wrong.


Yep. Aside from numerous responses along the lines of those many others have posted in this thread, when I responded with breach of contract, Amazon promptly released the rest of my books that were still in Select, even though they still had months to go. I blogged about it here:

https://ruthnestvold.wordpress.com/2016/10/14/a-chronicle-of-the-amazon-page-flip-controversy-or-how-to-piss-off-a-ton-of-your-vendors-all-at-once/

I have absolutely no idea why my books were hit so hard, but my Page Reads plummeted by at least 90%. I am very happy to no longer be in KDP Select, even if it means major readjustment in marketing for me. Before September, I was a big fan of Amazon, and advised readers of my blog to start out with KDP Select. Right now, I can't advise it to anyone. I know there are people who haven't been hit by whatever "adjustments" Amazon has recently made, but it has become abundantly clear to me that if I want to make a living as a writer, I can't reliably base my income on Amazon.


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## 75845

Atlantisatheart said:


> The EU did win against Amazon which is why people now have to pay digital download tax - respective of each EU country.


What is a digital download tax? VAT is British English for sales tax and has been charged on digital goods since at least 2008. VAT was paid all along by Amazon and for years they got to pay at Luxembourg's low rate because that is how the EU regulations were written until the UK and Germany complained that their citizens were buying all the books and Luxembourg was getting all the VAT. The 2015 VAT changes on digital goods had nothing to do with a court case, although it had a lot to do with Amazon and resentment of Luxembourg.

TL/DR Amazon have not evaded any taxes, although one EU Commissioner thinks their tax bill should have been higher. Lawyers are laughing all the way to the bank.


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## Atlantisatheart

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## Gone To Croatan

Atlantisatheart said:


> US companies who can well afford to pay tax are all dodging them.


No, they're not. Otherwise the government would have them in court.

Amazon pay very little tax because they make very little profit. Their business model has been 'growth at any cost!' for years; It's far more efficient for them to reinvest money into the company than to take it as profit and hand hundreds of millions a year over to the Tories.

Besides which, there's no such thing as a 'tax on business'. One way or another, every business will offload that tax onto their customers, employees or shareholders. In rare cases, it may be beneficial if most of the employees or customers are in other countries, but otherwise it's always just another way to screw the locals.

And I think it's safe to say that the government make far in tax from Amazon sales in VAT, fuel tax, road tax and all the other taxes involved in getting a product from Amazon to the customer than Amazon make in profit.


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## Indiecognito

On a slightly different note, today I'm registering ZERO sales. Anyone else? That isn't just highly unusual, it _never _happens.


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## JohnMilton

I can't tell what is going on.  I just did a free promotion and following it I got 11 pages and now 2 today so far.  I can't tell if that is real, or if it means I had 11 people open it yesterday in page flip and 2 today.  I am prawny, but so far, with the exception of single page reads, follow through when the book is opened is pretty consistent.  For the most part I am tracking full reads if someone starts.


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## JVRudnick

So...how long "after" one adds that "please go to  the end of the ebook before quitting so that the author gets paid" message to the .mobi -- does one see a change in their READS


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## H.C.

I've had one if not more sales almost every day this month and now on 6 days dry run  =  (


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## Indiecognito

TwistedTales said:


> I had a zero sales day on 24 October, something I haven't seen in two years. Stunning! I can't work out what happened that day. Page reads are zig zagging all over the map, which has also never happened before October. They tended to trend rather than zig zag, but now every day I can have 100% on the previous day or 50% less.
> 
> Very unusual behavior.


I swear, I've got to stop looking for a few weeks. It's too depressing.


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## KelliWolfe

JVRudnick said:


> So...how long "after" one adds that "please go to the end of the ebook before quitting so that the author gets paid" message to the .mobi -- does one see a change in their READS


But the thing is that we don't know that is what is responsible for the drop in page reads. Is it responsible for some? Sure. So is page flip. But it's very unlikely that behavior is responsible for people seeing 90% drops in their page reads. Yes, some readers flip back to some position closer to the front of the book after reading, but 90% of them going back to the cover? You're not going to be able to convince me of that one.

I think we're looking at a 2% loss from page flip and something in that ballpark for the last-position-navigated reads adjustment. Something else is causing the massive drops experienced by some authors while others aren't seeing any significant declines.


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## GoneToWriterSanctum

I'm not in KU. The only Amazon-exclusive book I have right now is in J. A. Konrath's Kindle World.

I was in KU2 until January of this year, when I decided to back out of it and go wide.

Given all of the subject matter in this thread, all of the goings-on in KU with pages read or not read, and Amazon's lack of transparency about any issues that may be happening with page reads, I have to ask a question.

I'm not trying to tick anyone off, and I ask that you answer the question without using me for a punching board.

Can Amazon earn back enough trust from you, as an author, to trust their reporting of pages read?

For me, it seems as if Amazon is causing major trust issues for anyone that has been "shorted" page reads. All we have is Amazon's word...but, since Amazon is releasing authors from KU when the words "breach of contract" appear, and that the issue apparently hasn't been corrected...well, can you trust them again?

I'll be interested in the responses.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Does this make sense?

I persuaded my trad published writer friend to go Indie. She uploaded her book (after much trial and error) and it was available for sale and in KU. There was no publicity/marketing and for a few days the Amazon bestsellers ranking was blank. Then on 25th October
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #217,074 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
•	#2130 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > General Humor
•	#3579 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > Humorous
•	#25877 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction
I assumed she'd had a sale or some page reads and told her to watch her sales dashboard.
then
27th Oct
• #490,166 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
o	#4023 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > General Humor
o	#7108 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > Humorous
o	#13245 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Romance

But there is a flat green line on her sales graph and blue dots showing 0 page reads. Disappointing to say the least. How long should she wait before contacting KDP?


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## rickblackmon

TwistedTales said:


> I had a zero sales day on 24 October, something I haven't seen in two years. Stunning! I can't work out what happened that day. Page reads are zig zagging all over the map, which has also never happened before October. They tended to trend rather than zig zag, but now every day I can have 100% on the previous day or 50% less.
> 
> Very unusual behavior.


Mine are jumping all over. More today than any day this month, and it's only 1:00PM/


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## JVRudnick

not interested in the page flip debacle....but in the closing of a .mobi on any page but the last one....ie should a reader think...hey great book and then go all the way back to look at the cover say one more time and then close the book--it's been reported here that such a move gets one a count of 1 for pages read for the whole book....

there's tons of this here already....one should not TLR IMHO....sigh....


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## KelliWolfe

JVRudnick said:


> not interested in the page flip debacle....but in the closing of a .mobi on any page but the last one....ie should a reader think...hey great book and then go all the way back to look at the cover say one more time and then close the book--it's been reported here that such a move gets one a count of 1 for pages read for the whole book....
> 
> there's tons of this here already....one should not TLR IMHO....sigh....


I understand the mechanics of it perfectly well. But as with page flip, the question is whether it is reasonable to attribute that behavior to such a large percentage of users that it makes sense that individual writers are losing literally millions of page reads a month to it.

I'm sorry, but I don't think so. And I think if that _was_ the case then we'd be seeing it across the board. Writers with the kind of sales Amanda and Rosalind have wouldn't be telling us that they're seeing no change in their numbers. They're huge sellers in the genres that seem to have the most trouble, and they're all-in with KU.

So the navigation trick isn't the culprit, except for some small fraction of page reads that are insignificant compared to the true problem.


----------



## Anarchist

T. M. Bilderback said:


> Can Amazon earn back enough trust from you, as an author, to trust their reporting of pages read?


It's always going to be a matter of faith. There has never been a way to audit Amazon's numbers. If one of my books sells 25 copies today, how do I know that it didn't really sell 30? If one of my books registers 2,000 page reads, how do I know that 2,500 pages weren't read?

There's no way to know for certain.

I trust Amazon. But it's like trusting that the airbags in your car will deploy properly in a collision. Know way to know for certain.


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## Indiecognito

TwistedTales said:


> I didn't see any of this in September, but October definitely flaked all over the place. I'm writing two books right now to finish a trilogy and it can be a bit distracting. If it paid my bills then I'd being having a fit, but it doesn't so I'm trying not to get annoyed by it. At least you know you're not alone in this sinking ship!


True!  The only reason I don't pull everything wide is that my current books are in a series that's been introduced in KU, and I'd suffer major reader wrath if I pulled them now. 
However, in response to an earlier question on trust? I have no idea if I can trust Amazon now or ever.


----------



## AllyWho

KelliWolfe said:


> I understand the mechanics of it perfectly well. But as with page flip, the question is whether it is reasonable to attribute that behavior to such a large percentage of users that it makes sense that individual writers are losing literally millions of page reads a month to it.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't think so. And I think if that _was_ the case then we'd be seeing it across the board. Writers with the kind of sales Amanda and Rosalind have wouldn't be telling us that they're seeing no change in their numbers. They're huge sellers in the genres that seem to have the most trouble, and they're all-in with KU.
> 
> So the navigation trick isn't the culprit, except for some small fraction of page reads that are insignificant compared to the true problem.


This ^ +1.

From my observations, the issue seems to be more keenly felt by authors with lower ranks where they can actually see 1-page read days. While yes it looks catastrophic to "plunge" from a few hundred reads a day to 1, comparatively (and financially) it's a small amount and one could argue simply the normal drop off directly related to the book's rank.

I'm not seeing big sellers, those with millions of pages, reporting any significant shift in patterns.


----------



## CassieL

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Does this make sense?
> 
> I persuaded my trad published writer friend to go Indie. She uploaded her book (after much trial and error) and it was available for sale and in KU. There was no publicity/marketing and for a few days the Amazon bestsellers ranking was blank. Then on 25th October
> Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #217,074 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
> •	#2130 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > General Humor
> •	#3579 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > Humorous
> •	#25877 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction
> I assumed she'd had a sale or some page reads and told her to watch her sales dashboard.
> then
> 27th Oct
> • #490,166 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
> o	#4023 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > General Humor
> o	#7108 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > Humorous
> o	#13245 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Romance
> 
> But there is a flat green line on her sales graph and blue dots showing 0 page reads. Disappointing to say the least. How long should she wait before contacting KDP?


That could be one borrrow that hasn't yet been read and then a decline in rank because of no more borrows. Perfectly normal.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Cassie Leigh said:


> That could be one borrrow that hasn't yet been read and then a decline in rank because of no more borrows. Perfectly normal.


OK Thanks. Will have to organise for someone to actually read some pages to see if they register.


----------



## Guest

AliceW said:


> This ^ +1.
> 
> From my observations, the issue seems to be more keenly felt by authors with lower ranks where they can actually see 1-page read days. While yes it looks catastrophic to "plunge" from a few hundred reads a day to 1, comparatively (and financially) it's a small amount and one could argue simply the normal drop off directly related to the book's rank.
> 
> I'm not seeing big sellers, those with millions of pages, reporting any significant shift in patterns.


I am, via another group of authors I'm talking with off this board... some who make the mid six figures (hardly small change) They've seem massive drops.
Seems like there is no rhyme or reason to the madness... I guess that is what is the most frustrating. It's almost like a lottery. 
I hope (have faith) that the situation may correct itself. But we won't know about it... it will just be a dead of the night tweak somewhere.
I'm not sure Amazon want to piss authors or readers off on purpose... but perhaps I'm being optimistic about that.
I have to be at this stage or I'll go crazy... sapped too much energy already.


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## SomeoneElse

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Does this make sense?
> 
> I persuaded my trad published writer friend to go Indie. She uploaded her book (after much trial and error) and it was available for sale and in KU. There was no publicity/marketing and for a few days the Amazon bestsellers ranking was blank. Then on 25th October
> Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #217,074 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
> •	#2130 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > General Humor
> •	#3579 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > Humorous
> •	#25877 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction
> I assumed she'd had a sale or some page reads and told her to watch her sales dashboard.
> then
> 27th Oct
> • #490,166 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
> o	#4023 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > General Humor
> o	#7108 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > Humorous
> o	#13245 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Romance
> 
> But there is a flat green line on her sales graph and blue dots showing 0 page reads. Disappointing to say the least. How long should she wait before contacting KDP?


As far as I know, she must have had something (a sale or a borrow) to get a sales rank. However, it could easily have been a 'ghost borrow' (someone who borrows but never reads) or even someone who borrowed it and just hasn't got to it yet. 
Sure, you could try contacting KDP, but there's no evidence that anything has gone wrong. If they're dismissing people who *know* they've had reads (at least publicly), I can see them dismissing this.


----------



## Cherise

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Does this make sense?
> 
> I persuaded my trad published writer friend to go Indie. She uploaded her book (after much trial and error) and it was available for sale and in KU. There was no publicity/marketing and for a few days the Amazon bestsellers ranking was blank. Then on 25th October
> Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #217,074 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
> •	#2130 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > General Humor
> •	#3579 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > Humorous
> •	#25877 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction
> I assumed she'd had a sale or some page reads and told her to watch her sales dashboard.
> then
> 27th Oct
> • #490,166 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
> o	#4023 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > General Humor
> o	#7108 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Humor & Satire > Humorous
> o	#13245 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Romance
> 
> But there is a flat green line on her sales graph and blue dots showing 0 page reads. Disappointing to say the least. How long should she wait before contacting KDP?


What doesn't make sense to me is that she launched a book with zero promotion. Be a true friend and let her know how to promote her book, pronto, so she gets some sales!


----------



## Guest

T. M. Bilderback said:


> I'm not in KU. The only Amazon-exclusive book I have right now is in J. A. Konrath's Kindle World.
> 
> I was in KU2 until January of this year, when I decided to back out of it and go wide.
> 
> Given all of the subject matter in this thread, all of the goings-on in KU with pages read or not read, and Amazon's lack of transparency about any issues that may be happening with page reads, I have to ask a question.
> 
> I'm not trying to tick anyone off, and I ask that you answer the question without using me for a punching board.
> 
> Can Amazon earn back enough trust from you, as an author, to trust their reporting of pages read?
> 
> For me, it seems as if Amazon is causing major trust issues for anyone that has been "shorted" page reads. All we have is Amazon's word...but, since Amazon is releasing authors from KU when the words "breach of contract" appear, and that the issue apparently hasn't been corrected...well, can you trust them again?
> 
> I'll be interested in the responses.


----------



## Guest

re the KU flap: At the beginning of the Industrial Revolution there were many machines that temporarily failed and there were two kinds of responses from people. Some people said the hell with people and outfits using machines, they could not be trusted. Other people said this is the beginning of a new world and we need patience with these machines the way we have patience when we break in a new horse. Anyone who thinks Amazon is deliberately cheating or just incompetent has no evidence to support these ideas and logic and evidence say have patience, it's a revolution and a new world and the bugs and gremlins need to be found and taken care of.


----------



## rickblackmon

icarusxx said:


> re the KU flap: At the beginning of the Industrial Revolution there were many machines that temporarily failed and there were two kinds of responses from people. Some people said the hell with people and outfits using machines, they could not be trusted. Other people said this is the beginning of a new world and we need patience with these machines the way we have patience when we break in a new horse. Anyone who thinks Amazon is deliberately cheating or just incompetent has no evidence to support these ideas and logic and evidence say have patience, it's a revolution and a new world and the bugs and gremlins need to be found and taken care of.


There are those of us who need the Amazon income in order to pay the bills, and to pay for the medications the doctor has prescribed (And I do have insurance, but there is co-pay.) Over the past two months, my reads and income have fallen 93%, so I'm supposed to sit back and smile sweetly, and wait quietly while Amazon treats me like a mushroom (Keeps me in the dark and piles crap in the form of canned responses that say all is well.)? I don't think so.


----------



## KelliWolfe

icarusxx said:


> re the KU flap: At the beginning of the Industrial Revolution there were many machines that temporarily failed and there were two kinds of responses from people. Some people said the hell with people and outfits using machines, they could not be trusted. Other people said this is the beginning of a new world and we need patience with these machines the way we have patience when we break in a new horse. Anyone who thinks Amazon is deliberately cheating or just incompetent has no evidence to support these ideas and logic and evidence say have patience, it's a revolution and a new world and the bugs and gremlins need to be found and taken care of.


This isn't 1835. Testing software before release isn't some new concept. Amazon is dealing with mature technologies and there is no good reason that this should be so difficult. It doesn't help when they outright lie to people about what they're doing (re page flip) and their abilities to carry out the terms of their agreement with us (accurately counting page reads), and deny-deny-deny ongoing problems despite the copious evidence presented to them.


----------



## Lysandra_Lorde

rickblackmon said:


> There are those of us who need the Amazon income in order to pay the bills, and to pay for the medications the doctor has prescribed (And I do have insurance, but there is co-pay.) Over the past two months, my reads and income have fallen 93%, so I'm supposed to sit back and smile sweetly, and wait quietly while Amazon treats me like a mushroom (Keeps me in the dark and piles crap in the form of canned responses that say all is well.)? I don't think so.


Posts like yours terrify me :/ I'm sorry you have to go through this. Believe your data, there is something very very wrong going on and it is being looked into. I truly hope everyone affected bounces back. I've heard that Sabrina Paige just left KU, too.


----------



## anotherpage

KelliWolfe said:


> I understand the mechanics of it perfectly well. But as with page flip, the question is whether it is reasonable to attribute that behavior to such a large percentage of users that it makes sense that individual writers are losing literally millions of page reads a month to it.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't think so. And I think if that _was_ the case then we'd be seeing it across the board. Writers with the kind of sales Amanda and Rosalind have wouldn't be telling us that they're seeing no change in their numbers. They're huge sellers in the genres that seem to have the most trouble, and they're all-in with KU.
> 
> So the navigation trick isn't the culprit, except for some small fraction of page reads that are insignificant compared to the true problem.


I have seen no change in mine either. In fact mine have gone up.


----------



## 75814

T. M. Bilderback said:


> I'm not in KU. The only Amazon-exclusive book I have right now is in J. A. Konrath's Kindle World.
> 
> I was in KU2 until January of this year, when I decided to back out of it and go wide.
> 
> Given all of the subject matter in this thread, all of the goings-on in KU with pages read or not read, and Amazon's lack of transparency about any issues that may be happening with page reads, I have to ask a question.
> 
> I'm not trying to tick anyone off, and I ask that you answer the question without using me for a punching board.
> 
> Can Amazon earn back enough trust from you, as an author, to trust their reporting of pages read?
> 
> For me, it seems as if Amazon is causing major trust issues for anyone that has been "shorted" page reads. All we have is Amazon's word...but, since Amazon is releasing authors from KU when the words "breach of contract" appear, and that the issue apparently hasn't been corrected...well, can you trust them again?
> 
> I'll be interested in the responses.


Yes, I can. Because $#!% happens. Amazon made a mistake that's causing problems. It will be fixed sooner or later. And even with the decreased numbers I've seen this month, it's still more than I made on all the other platforms combined. So I'm going to ride it out because things will settle and go back to normal eventually.


----------



## 75845

Atlantisatheart said:


> VAT is tax, and digital download tax is what campaigners trying to stop it being implemented called it to draw attention towards the government getting their greedy little paws on more tax payers cash - akin to the bedroom tax campaign for social housing - and because Amazon wouldn;t pay their taxes the governements lobbed it onto the consumer.
> 
> In 2015 Amazon had sales of 5.3bn in the UK and paid 11.9m in tax. JK Rowling probably paid more tax than Amazon did. (I can neither confirm nor deny JK Rowling's tax bill.) I admit Amazon aren't alone in dodging tax here; Starbucks, Facebook,Google, Apple... US companies who can well afford to pay tax are all dodging them.


You are confusing sales tax with tax on corporate profits. What Amazon was doing (along with Apple, Kobo, Nook, and Google) was setting up offices in Luxembourg to legally avail of their 3% VAT rate. VAT rates in the EU are set by individual member states and so there was nothing illegal in what Luxembourg or those companies did, but an EU commissioner is trying to argue that Luxembourg was wrong to offer such a low rate. All that changed in 2015 was that a company with an office in the EU is treated the same as a company like Smashwords without a physical base in the EU: VAT is charged at the rate of the consumer's country not the country of the supplier. VAT is a sales tax that is much higher in most EU countries as raising income tax loses more votes at the next election. This has nothing to do with Amazon spending most of their earnings and therefore having little profit to be taxed on.

VAT on ebooks did not begin in 2015, it was supposed to be charged by everyone for consumer purchases since 2008 or thereabouts, but a lot of people selling ebooks from their own websites did not realise that until the 2015 changes. Amazon's low tax on profits has nothing to do with the consumer being charged VAT: the consumer has always paid VAT, which Amazon has always collected and always passed on the government (once just Luxembourg now to each government whose citizens buy from them).


----------



## RedAlert

I don't think Amazon would ever allow a plea to be paid to be placed in a book.  It would be admitting that something was wrong with the Kindle.

People are discounting the effect of Page Flip.  What about those reports that if a reader reopens a book, no matter the interval, that all reads disappear?  I believe it was said that it was the situation outside of Page Flip, too.  This is a huge concern.

Also, I would resent being told how to read a book.  I thumb through my paperbacks as I wish.  If I want to reread something, I will.  Otherwise, I'll go someplace where I can read in peace.  

I am glad that our big stars have not had immense declines.  It is possible that they are housed in special places.  You know, deluxe suites!  The rest of the hopefuls are outside in tents.  (If one of the biggies came in here and announced that last week they had a trillion sales, but today they had two, everyone would be outta here.)

All I want for the holidays is a fixed Amazon.  But, it's been too long.  I just can't believe this c**p.  I also think this is KU 3.0.

There was that one poster who is NOT in KU who claimed that he had decreased sales, but that person got the brush off and referred to this thread.  I want to know if this problem is affecting KDP, for those not in KU.  I was hoping to publish in the Amazon store (keeping in mind that I might suck and not get any sales,) just not in KU for the moment.  Also, any problem with hard copy versus digital, where paperback sales are affected?  Or, is that too spotty for analysis?

I feel for ya all.


----------



## SomeoneElse

RedAlert said:


> There was that one poster who is NOT in KU who claimed that he had decreased sales, but that person got the brush off and referred to this thread. I want to know if this problem is affecting KDP, for those not in KU. I was hoping to publish in the Amazon store (keeping in mind that I might suck and not get any sales,) just not in KU for the moment.


It was probably not appropriate to direct that poster to this thread, but let's be real: at least a few times a month, when everything is normal, threads are started about sales/reads plummeting... and it turns out to be just that one user. I don't blame people for defaulting to 'brush off.'

Also, about inserting the 'plea' - I don't think Amazon checks the content in enough detail to notice.


----------



## S.R.

I conducted a "page flip" test of my own - results below. 

After reading in this thread that someone could borrow and read an entire book and then flip back to the cover before closing and all of the pages read would be erased, I was shocked! How could Amazon release a new feature without even the basic testing that would reveal a flaw like this? 

And yes, I completely understand how unexpected software glitches crop up, I worked for very large tech companies for a couple of decades. I also know the extensive internal and beta testing we conducted to flush out and correct problems before they were passed along to customers. It's one thing for Amazon to underestimate how a navigational feature will be used (i.e. for reading mode) and then correct it when/if it is proven otherwise. It's another thing to not even test the feature adequately enough before introduction to know that it erases actual pages read...especially since that's how authors are paid.

Anyway, I realized I had a nonfiction book (KENP 130) that I wrote and released to learn the publishing process...and then promptly forgot about it. It was still enrolled in KU, and hadn't had a page read in many months. It was the perfect test case.

On Tuesday (10/25), I downloaded the book with my KU subscription (I'd never borrowed it before), and opened and read the first 10%. I closed the app (I read using the Kindle app on an iPad). Within 2-3 hours, 13 pages read were logged onto my KDP dashboard report. Perfect, everything was operating as it should. Once those pages were logged, I opened the book again and read to the end. When I reached the last page, I tapped the screen and navigated back to the cover, paused a couple of seconds and closed the book.

And then I waited...and waited...and waited...for my remaining 117 pages to show up on my dashboard. ZIP, NADA, ZILCH. The original 13 pages are still on my chart, so it appears that once pages are logged, they remain (at least in my test). But, if someone were to borrow, read offline and have flipped back to the cover at the end of the book then it would certainly not register more than 1 page (best case) when the app synched. Or, if they're connected to wifi and take a break while reading, (like I did), some pages might register, others not.

I continued to wait for my missing pages until I passed the supposed 48hr mark, just to make sure that Amazon can't magically make them appear when I inquire and pretend it was a normal "reporting lag." (Yes, at this point I'm fairly cynical). I hit that mark this afternoon and then emailed all of the information to a contact I had on the Executive Customer Relations team at Amazon and requested a call to discuss.

When/if I hear something, I'll report it here.


----------



## rickblackmon

LSMay said:


> It was probably not appropriate to direct that poster to this thread, but let's be real: at least a few times a month, when everything is normal, threads are started about sales/reads plummeting... and it turns out to be just that one user. I don't blame people for defaulting to 'brush off.'
> 
> Also, about inserting the 'plea' - I don't think Amazon checks the content in enough detail to notice.


They might not check it themselves, but I would bet the farm they would be told... taken to task for their actions by some reader. They would know it and would it would likely be called a violation of the TOS.


----------



## boxer44

This note on my sale record page today:  

QUOTE:    Data Delay
Metrics data are currently delayed. Data for your campaigns will be available in full when this issue is resolved.
END QUOTE:


Up until today in the same slot it said AMZ is having a glitch in the data reading and it should be fixed by 10/27 - it's not. So, Amz is working on it - there is no way any of us can know sales or no sale or reads, whatever.  Up and down slides happen all the time in the reader / buyer world ... we can either ride it out, or remove our work.  

I'm riding it out, and writing another novel while this plays out.  I find it extremely unlikely Amz is intentionally burning us for what amounts to a peanuts amount of money ...


----------



## tresero

boxer44 said:


> This note on my sale record page today:
> 
> QUOTE: Data Delay
> Metrics data are currently delayed. Data for your campaigns will be available in full when this issue is resolved.
> END QUOTE:
> 
> Up until today in the same slot it said AMZ is having a glitch in the data reading and it should be fixed by 10/27 - it's not. So, Amz is working on it - there is no way any of us can know sales or no sale or reads, whatever. Up and down slides happen all the time in the reader / buyer world ... we can either ride it out, or remove our work.
> 
> I'm riding it out, and writing another novel while this plays out. I find it extremely unlikely Amz is intentionally burning us for what amounts to a peanuts amount of money ...


I don't see this on my sales dashboard, but it is the worst day of the month for me.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

boxer44 said:


> This note on my sale record page today:
> 
> QUOTE: Data Delay
> Metrics data are currently delayed. Data for your campaigns will be available in full when this issue is resolved.
> END QUOTE:
> 
> Up until today in the same slot it said AMZ is having a glitch in the data reading and it should be fixed by 10/27 - it's not. So, Amz is working on it - there is no way any of us can know sales or no sale or reads, whatever. Up and down slides happen all the time in the reader / buyer world ... we can either ride it out, or remove our work.
> 
> I'm riding it out, and writing another novel while this plays out. I find it extremely unlikely Amz is intentionally burning us for what amounts to a peanuts amount of money ...


That's on my advertising report for me, not on my sales page. There's nothing on the sales page that I can see.


----------



## amdonehere

I'm a prawn comparing to many of you, but my KU reads are still wonky. Since this all started, I've been getting this pattern of many days of low reads, then a shocking spike (as if Amazon is giving me back all the uncounted pages), and then goes back down to inexplicably low, and another shocking spike.

I've gone through 2 cycles of this pattern now. I doubt a bunch of KU readers suddenly discovered my books on the same day and decided to read together. Also, I ran a low key promo 2 weeks ago and there was no impact on the low read count. I've got a stronger stack promo coming up next week so we'll see.

I'm not complaining about the spikes and if Amazon is giving me back the page counts, then great. But something is off.


----------



## Jericho

SallyRose said:


> I conducted a "page flip" test of my own - results below.
> 
> On Tuesday (10/25), I downloaded the book with my KU subscription (I'd never borrowed it before), and opened and read the first 10%. I closed the app (I read using the Kindle app on an iPad). Within 2-3 hours, 13 pages read were logged onto my KDP dashboard report. Perfect, everything was operating as it should. Once those pages were logged, I opened the book again and read to the end. When I reached the last page, I tapped the screen and navigated back to the cover, paused a couple of seconds and closed the book.
> 
> And then I waited...and waited...and waited...for my remaining 117 pages to show up on my dashboard. ZIP, NADA, ZILCH. The original 13 pages are still on my chart, so it appears that once pages are logged, they remain (at least in my test). But, if someone were to borrow, read offline and have flipped back to the cover at the end of the book then it would certainly not register more than 1 page (best case) when the app synched. Or, if they're connected to wifi and take a break while reading, (like I did), some pages might register, others not.
> 
> I continued to wait for my missing pages until I passed the supposed 48hr mark, just to make sure that Amazon can't magically make them appear when I inquire and pretend it was a normal "reporting lag." (Yes, at this point I'm fairly cynical). I hit that mark this afternoon and then emailed all of the information to a contact I had on the Executive Customer Relations team at Amazon and requested a call to discuss.
> 
> When/if I hear something, I'll report it here.


It's great to hear some have been testing this rather than simply relying on the representatives at the Zon to address it openly before they have a solution to the issue.

I've suggested this before to no avail, but if it were possible to get a screencast, or video, of these tests to further address the issue to make it impossible to ignore the proof, that would also be very helpful. Video evidence can account for a lot. For those who have KU and are still interested in testing this could prove fruitful.

There have been a few author boards in different arenas now speaking to this problem. I'm hopeful they will fix it soon as this has been a wonderful platform for so many authors and readers.



boxer44 said:


> This note on my sale record page today:
> 
> QUOTE: Data Delay
> Metrics data are currently delayed. Data for your campaigns will be available in full when this issue is resolved.
> END QUOTE:
> 
> Up until today in the same slot it said AMZ is having a glitch in the data reading and it should be fixed by 10/27 - it's not. So, Amz is working on it - there is no way any of us can know sales or no sale or reads, whatever. Up and down slides happen all the time in the reader / buyer world ... we can either ride it out, or remove our work.
> 
> I'm riding it out, and writing another novel while this plays out. I find it extremely unlikely Amz is intentionally burning us for what amounts to a peanuts amount of money ...


I agree. I haven't seen this message, possibly because I'm not running an advertising campaign. I have however received three separate messages from the Zon suggesting nothing was amiss with the data I provided them pointing to the fact that since Sept. 9 I've had "1 page reads" 35 times. I joined KDP select around Sept. 7 or 8.

When I first noticed it I thought this was normal. Then it became apparent there was a pattern of higher sales and page reads on some days, then other days of nothing. Almost every two days like clockwork. The titles that that had low page reads, to the best of my knowledge, never recuperated.

It's heartbreaking to think I could've been earning so much more for my efforts. Without this thread and those around the interweb discussing this issue I would've assumed it was just me sucking.

Glad to know that's not the case, as the increase when I'm not tanking suggests otherwise. However, I'm sure my first novel and the other shorts I've uploaded have been hurt in the process as rankings rely on sales and page reads.

While I work on another novel, I'm trying to stay focused on the writing and get ready for the day this is remedied and we can all get back to business as usual.


----------



## JRTomlin

Jericho said:


> It's great to hear some have been testing this rather than simply relying on the representatives at the Zon to address it openly before they have a solution to the issue.
> 
> I've suggested this before to no avail, but if it were possible to get a screencast, or video, of these tests to further address the issue to make it impossible to ignore the proof, that would also be very helpful. Video evidence can account for a lot. For those who have KU and are still interested in testing this could prove fruitful.


Testing is easier said than done. I don't have a book that has zero reads to test or I would.

It has to be a book that has no reads and is getting no reads which and is on our own account. That probably isn't that common for most of us.


----------



## Hope

AlexaKang said:


> I'm a prawn comparing to many of you, but my KU reads are still wonky. Since this all started, I've been getting this pattern of many days of low reads, then a shocking spike (as if Amazon is giving me back all the uncounted pages), and then goes back down to inexplicably low, and another shocking spike.
> 
> I've gone through 2 cycles of this pattern now. I doubt a bunch of KU readers suddenly discovered my books on the same day and decided to read together. Also, I ran a low key promo 2 weeks ago and there was no impact on the low read count. I've got a stronger stack promo coming up next week so we'll see.
> 
> I'm not complaining about the spikes and if Amazon is giving me back the page counts, then great. But something is off.


I've had this happen twice, as well.


----------



## phoenixwaller

JRTomlin said:


> It has to be a book that has no reads and is getting no reads which and is on our own account. That probably isn't that common for most of us.


except maybe for those of us who went dormant for a couple years 

I've got 2 novels and a novella currently with many months(maybe 2-3 years) of 0 page reads, and likely to stay that way unless I run some halloween freebie promotions since I'm currently focused on a pen name before reviving my real name.

Unfortunately, I've already bought them all (I made a habit of doing this on freebie promotion days) so I dunno if a KU borrow would show up properly for me.


----------



## SomeoneElse

Jericho said:


> Glad to know that's not the case, as the increase when I'm not tanking suggests otherwise. However, I'm sure my first novel and the other shorts I've uploaded have been hurt in the process as rankings rely on sales and page reads.


Rankings don't rely on page reads - only borrows. When you get those 1 page reads, your rank will still get the same boost as if the full read was recorded. Unless, of course, there's another bug in that system, but my rankings still rise as expected when I get 1 or 2 page days.


----------



## Nic

Mercia McMahon said:


> You are confusing sales tax with tax on corporate profits. What Amazon was doing (along with Apple, Kobo, Nook, and Google) was setting up offices in Luxembourg to legally avail of their 3% VAT rate. VAT rates in the EU are set by individual member ....


All of which doesn't negate the tax argument per se, nor the fact that it is illegal for a business active in the EU and the UK to not adhere to EU/UK trade and labour laws. They got a tax deal from Luxembourg which resulted in a much lower corporation tax, which is a direct breach of fair competition laws. Amazon has been having a problem with basic EU laws for ages, and already been made to see the light in several cases.


----------



## AllyWho

Jericho said:


> However, I'm sure my first novel and the other shorts I've uploaded have been hurt in the process as rankings rely on sales and page reads.


Reads have nothing to do with rank. This is just another example of the false/alarmist information being thrown around in this thread. Borrows (and sales) trigger a rank bump, reads are simply the way Amazon calculates the royalty.


----------



## Jericho

LSMay said:


> Rankings don't rely on page reads - only borrows. When you get those 1 page reads, your rank will still get the same boost as if the full read was recorded. Unless, of course, there's another bug in that system, but my rankings still rise as expected when I get 1 or 2 page days.





AliceW said:


> Reads have nothing to do with rank. This is just another example of the false/alarmist information being thrown around in this thread. Borrows (and sales) trigger a rank bump, reads are simply the way Amazon calculates the royalty.


Woo hoo!! That's some of the best news I've heard in a while. Wait! That means I'm not actually a best seller yet. Damn!


----------



## LeonardDHilleyII

SallyRose said:


> I conducted a "page flip" test of my own - results below.
> 
> After reading in this thread that someone could borrow and read an entire book and then flip back to the cover before closing and all of the pages read would be erased, I was shocked! How could Amazon release a new feature without even the basic testing that would reveal a flaw like this?
> 
> And yes, I completely understand how unexpected software glitches crop up, I worked for very large tech companies for a couple of decades. I also know the extensive internal and beta testing we conducted to flush out and correct problems before they were passed along to customers. It's one thing for Amazon to underestimate how a navigational feature will be used (i.e. for reading mode) and then correct it when/if it is proven otherwise. It's another thing to not even test the feature adequately enough before introduction to know that it erases actual pages read...especially since that's how authors are paid.
> 
> Anyway, I realized I had a nonfiction book (KENP 130) that I wrote and released to learn the publishing process...and then promptly forgot about it. It was still enrolled in KU, and hadn't had a page read in many months. It was the perfect test case.
> 
> On Tuesday (10/25), I downloaded the book with my KU subscription (I'd never borrowed it before), and opened and read the first 10%. I closed the app (I read using the Kindle app on an iPad). Within 2-3 hours, 13 pages read were logged onto my KDP dashboard report. Perfect, everything was operating as it should. Once those pages were logged, I opened the book again and read to the end. When I reached the last page, I tapped the screen and navigated back to the cover, paused a couple of seconds and closed the book.
> 
> And then I waited...and waited...and waited...for my remaining 117 pages to show up on my dashboard. ZIP, NADA, ZILCH. The original 13 pages are still on my chart, so it appears that once pages are logged, they remain (at least in my test). But, if someone were to borrow, read offline and have flipped back to the cover at the end of the book then it would certainly not register more than 1 page (best case) when the app synched. Or, if they're connected to wifi and take a break while reading, (like I did), some pages might register, others not.
> 
> I continued to wait for my missing pages until I passed the supposed 48hr mark, just to make sure that Amazon can't magically make them appear when I inquire and pretend it was a normal "reporting lag." (Yes, at this point I'm fairly cynical). I hit that mark this afternoon and then emailed all of the information to a contact I had on the Executive Customer Relations team at Amazon and requested a call to discuss.
> 
> When/if I hear something, I'll report it here.


 Frighteningly troubling, and not in the Halloweenish sort of way. I keep seeing odd 'reads' with some of my books, 20-30 pages. The 1-page reads trouble me, especially since my novels are long. I've unchecked the KU renewal for all of my novels until this issue gets resolved (If it gets resolved).


----------



## RedAlert

LSMay said:


> It was probably not appropriate to direct that poster to this thread, but let's be real: at least a few times a month, when everything is normal, threads are started about sales/reads plummeting... and it turns out to be just that one user. I don't blame people for defaulting to 'brush off.'
> 
> Also, about inserting the 'plea' - I don't think Amazon checks the content in enough detail to notice.


It starts with one person. It pays to at least be polite to someone with a problem. The problem may turn out to be a serious threat to the community as a whole. It wasn't off topic in my opinion. I guess I was interested to know if launching in KDP is still viable. How can you do an effective launch in this environment?

I am terribly disappointed in Amazon and their unwillingness to tell authors what is happening. Something is happening here. Not just one person bitching about cruddy sales.

If Amazon finds out about a plea page, they'll hunt down every last author who put one in and make him/her revise the book. And I agree with the other poster. Readers will innocently contact Amazon and make an inquiry as to why their Kindle isn't working right. After all, they love their author! Hmmmm....

I'm in favor of calm, quiet, patient waiting, but it's been too long. At least, too long to wait for an explanation. An explanation would go a long way. Instead, their bots tell you that there is no problem. Read customer complaints about Amazon. There is a problem!


----------



## Abalone

I have little faith in Amazon to address this before the new year. If they do, I won't make wild promises like doing the Lambada in the buff with a thorned rose in m mouth. I lost that bet once already when I was younger.


----------



## ZLM

Being not enrolled in Select myself, I have no stake in this, but today my Kindle app for my Android updated. Not sure about the Kindle itself, or on my laptop, but is it possible there was a fix in there? It only mentioned a general bug fix in the patch notes that displayed, no details.


----------



## BloodHound

lostones said:


> I have seen no change in mine either. In fact mine have gone up.


Only Amazon can say who is affected and they're not talking and likely will not. IMO it is also likely not a selective filter or mistake because that would be criminal unless there system has been hacked. In other words the problems are probably effecting the vast majority but quite a few just aren't spotting it. Plus just because you think things look normal doesn't mean you haven't been skimmed as badly as others or just to a lesser degree. All I know is there is enough circumstantial, anecdotal, and material evidence to say there is likely some pretty big flaws in their system. In fact enough real evidence has trickled out now that many pages weren't being recorded in the first place by design of the page flip feature that many weren't aware of. Bottom line is if Amazon chooses to remain silent and show no transparency, as thieves often do, then they are deserving of the negative publicity. That is not to say they are thieves but if you act similar to one you may face the consequences.


----------



## Abalone

ZLM said:


> Being not enrolled in Select myself, I have no stake in this, but today my Kindle app for my Android updated. Not sure about the Kindle itself, or on my laptop, but is it possible there was a fix in there? It only mentioned a general bug fix in the patch notes that displayed, no details.


Could be, ZLM. Companies never give the downlow on everything fixed like they do with regular computer software. Test it out on your books or a friends?


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

[quote author=Red Alert]

If Amazon finds out about a plea page, they'll hunt down every last author who put one in and make him/her revise the book. And I agree with the other poster. Readers will innocently contact Amazon and make an inquiry as to why their Kindle isn't working right. After all, they love their author! Hmmmm....

[/quote]

I guess I'll be the guinea pig. I've amended several of my KU books with a simple "Dear Reader" note at the end of the book. It's at the end of the book and asks readers to kindly exit at the end of the book to ensure the author is credited for the book borrow. I did not say anything about kindles not working correctly or anything like that. The issue Amazon cracked down on was that scammers were putting links in the *front* of the book to send readers to the end which artificially recorded the entire book as read. I can't see why a note at the *end* asking the reader to exit at the end would violate anything in the TOS. If I put it on the first page with a link to the end where I asked them to exit, that's a different story.

Of course, I'll let you all know if there's some kind of smackdown.


----------



## doolittle03

I'm curious if having a link to a mailing list or other titles has any effect? e.g. If I have links to other titles at the end of the book and the reader clicks on those, have they effectively "finished" the book and the percentage reached in the book is recorded?


----------



## chrisuk78

JRTomlin said:


> Testing is easier said than done. I don't have a book that has zero reads to test or I would.
> 
> It has to be a book that has no reads and is getting no reads which and is on our own account. That probably isn't that common for most of us.


I have one. I can give the URL if anyone wants to PM to do a test. I cancelled my own KU account last month and don't really want to renew.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

JRTomlin said:


> Testing is easier said than done. I don't have a book that has zero reads to test or I would.
> 
> It has to be a book that has no reads and is getting no reads which and is on our own account. That probably isn't that common for most of us.


I can't get KU in SA. I've had someone test My Bheki children's book, which they read on 21st Oct. Still no page reads showing .
No one has bought or borrowed either of my Leon Chameleon PI books for several months, so if anyone would like to try those they are welcome. They are short children's books. Perhaps we could arrange for different experiments.


----------



## CozyReads

phoenixwaller said:


> Unfortunately, I've already bought them all (I made a habit of doing this on freebie promotion days) so I dunno if a KU borrow would show up properly for me.


It wouldn't work properly. Once you buy a book, even if you delete it from your content, the borrow/pages wouldn't register on your account.


----------



## NotAPenguin

Are people still saying they are not effected?

I can't believe this is still happening.

Does anyone think it was deliberate, or an effort to pay indies less?


----------



## JRTomlin

Yes, there are people who not only say it but in fact are not affected.


----------



## AllyWho

NotAPenguin said:


> Are people still saying they are not effected?


Yes. Because a large number of us aren't affected. You simply don't hear about the tens of thousands of authors with no issue because we have nothing to complain about. I'm having a great October.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## S.R.

NotAPenguin said:


> Does anyone think it was deliberate, or an effort to pay indies less?


I think there are clearly problems affecting Amazon's ability to accurately pay authors what they are due, but I don't think there was any malice involved or deliberate attempt to pay indie authors less. To me, it seems that Amazon has been careless (reckless?) in introducing new features and capabilities (page flip and likely new filters to combat fraud), without adequately testing the side effects.

Amazon is always pushing the boundaries. It has given indies a huge opportunity that didn't exist prior to its entrance into the ebook market and I don't want to lose sight of that. However, I do hope that in the future it will put more rigorous and diligent testing behind changes. And with the current situation, I hope it will decide to be more forthcoming about the issues and the fixes - and more proactive/transparent in correcting mistakes.

It's the ongoing silence and/or continued denial of problems in the face of hard evidence that's doing the most damage IMHO.


----------



## 75845

ebbrown said:


> I guess I'll be the guinea pig. I've amended several of my KU books with a simple "Dear Reader" note at the end of the book. It's at the end of the book and asks readers to kindly exit at the end of the book to ensure the author is credited for the book borrow. I did not say anything about kindles not working correctly or anything like that. The issue Amazon cracked down on was that scammers were putting links in the *front* of the book to send readers to the end which artificially recorded the entire book as read. I can't see why a note at the *end* asking the reader to exit at the end would violate anything in the TOS. If I put it on the first page with a link to the end where I asked them to exit, that's a different story.
> 
> Of course, I'll let you all know if there's some kind of smackdown.


Hopefully your readers get to read your note at the end. The first book I read on KU cut the author's note halfway through a paragraph to insert Amazon's pleading page.


----------



## MarkParragh

> It's the ongoing silence and/or continued denial of problems in the face of hard evidence that's doing the most damage IMHO.


Indeed. This makes it really hard to overlook the basic fact that everyone who deals with Amazon has little choice but to take them at their word. Even if you aren't in KU but only sell books, you throw your book over the wall and Amazon comes back and says "you sold X books today, and here's your cut." How do you really know you sold X books?

This is just part of life. Trad published authors have been in the same situation since the dawn of time. But when Amazon has really obvious problems tracking page reads in KU, when the figures they put on the chart in my KDP dashboard don't match up with the spreadsheet they give you when you hit "Generate Report" at the bottom of the page - basically when you can't tell what the hell is going on from day to day, it shines a light on the degree of trust you have to have to do this, and simultaneously makes it harder to trust what you're being told.

It's corrosive to our relationship with Amazon, and that's not good for anyone.


----------



## Colin

AliceW said:


> Yes. Because a large number of us aren't affected. You simply don't hear about the tens of thousands of authors with no issue because we have nothing to complain about. I'm having a great October.


It's good to know that you are having a great October. I have access to over one hundred KDP sales reports and the picture is pretty mixed - some are unaffected and others are being hit. Let's hope that another Amazon screw up doesn't spoil your November!


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Colin

Atlantisatheart said:


> Wouldn't that be called Karma?


Possibly.... ;-)


----------



## SomeoneElse

NotAPenguin said:


> Are people still saying they are not effected?
> 
> I can't believe this is still happening.
> 
> Does anyone think it was deliberate, or an effort to pay indies less?


I have had more days than I'd like with 1 or 2 pages read, but my monthly total is looking like it will be on the low side of average - nothing to panic over.

But I've said all along, for many it's impossible to tell if you're affected. I had my best month ever in September, but given the marketing I was doing, I should have had my best month ever. There's no way for me to know if those numbers should have been higher. Even for those whose numbers are lower, it's often hard to tell how much of that is seasonal factors or dropping off cliffs or what have you.

I really don't think any issue here is deliberate. If Amazon wanted to pay us less, they have 2 very easy, very legal ways to do it - redefine what a 'page' is so we have fewer pages each, or put less money in overall, so each page is worth less. Sure, people would complain, but people are complaining now, so I don't think the risk of upsetting us by dropping our payouts outweighs the risk of legal action and/or bad press from miscounting the pages read.


----------



## BloodHound

AliceW said:


> Yes. Because a large number of us aren't affected. You simply don't hear about the tens of thousands of authors with no issue because we have nothing to complain about. I'm having a great October.


Sweeping generalizations like this still amaze me because they defy logic. There is simply no way to tell how many are affected because Amazon exhibits no transparency and they intend to keep it that way based upon past behavior. For all you know there may be tens of thousands who were affected and never got by Amazon's first line of defenses which is the contact us button.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

For what it's worth. Today I suddenly got 313 page reads, the exact number of pages for the book that showed up on book report. So a reader obviously read it right through, either in bits, or chapters before going back online. But the same book has been stuck on 2 page reads in India since the beginning of the month (I know the reader could have decided they didn't want to read more, but I am suspicious).


----------



## Guest

What Writes at Midnight said:


> Pure speculation here. What if Amazon really is making it so that freebie promos do not result in payable pages read because, free. What if the 1-pages-read phenomenon DURING free promos is not page flip, but all about Amazon still recording a borrow for rank credit and not paying the author for pages read.
> 
> That of course would mean that, assuming it's been all rolled out, anybody running a free promo would only see their freebies gaining one-page reads during the promo AND whenever the book borrowed during the promo was read, even if weeks later. They might see some freebies gaining normal page reads that were from previous days' (when not free as a purchase) downloads. Or, if some authors see regular pages read for the freebie during free promos, that could be because it's being rolled out to authors. Or, if some authors see regular pages read for some books but only one-page read for others, that could be because it's being rolled out to BOOKS.
> 
> It would not explain huge downturns of accounts not associated with freebies. UNLESS there are bugs, and it's not working as it should.
> 
> Again, pure speculation.
> 
> But if so - why not just announce this?


This has been discussed in a lot of groups and many authors seem to think it's true. They say if a reader borrows a book while it's free, the author won't get those pages credited anymore. I have no way of knowing if this is true but it could explain to some extent why some authors are being hit harder than others.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Colin

Atlantisatheart said:


> I don't give away free books... Well, apart from the free reads amazon are not paying me for.


It sounds to me like you are suffering from AAGS: Amazon Accidental Give-away Syndrome. Don't worry, you are not alone...


----------



## Atunah

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> For what it's worth. Today I suddenly got 313 page reads, the exact number of pages for the book that showed up on book report. So a reader obviously read it right through, either in bits, or chapters before going back online. But the same book has been stuck on 2 page reads in India since the beginning of the month (I know the reader could have decided they didn't want to read more, but I am suspicious).


The oldest book I have in my KU account at the moment I borrowed on August 2015. Yep, you heard that right, 2015. It logged probably about 10 pages. I just haven't gotten to it yet. I always have all 10 of my slots full, but don't read some of the books for many many months, more than a year even it seems. I just checked and 4 books in my slots are from 2015. I always have 2 slots for immediate rotation reading. All those books would have logged at least one page, me checking if the formatting is correct, etc. Or re-reading the blurb to see if I am now in the mood to read that book.

1 month of wait is nothing for me, nothing. I have purchased books from 2008 I haven't gotten to yet. Obviously I can't do that with KU so much, but there are 10 slots to fill after all so I can have a little reading list going.

Other KU readers are not very patient. They borrow, read a page or 2, don't get hooked, return and get something else. Its a buffet. You can try a bite and then get something else if you didn't like it. Costs the same.


----------



## Indiecognito

What Writes at Midnight said:


> Pure speculation here. What if Amazon really is making it so that freebie promos do not result in payable pages read because, free. What if the 1-pages-read phenomenon DURING free promos is not page flip, but all about Amazon still recording a borrow for rank credit and not paying the author for pages read.
> 
> That of course would mean that, assuming it's been all rolled out, anybody running a free promo would only see their freebies gaining one-page reads during the promo AND whenever the book borrowed during the promo was read, even if weeks later. They might see some freebies gaining normal page reads that were from previous days' (when not free as a purchase) downloads. Or, if some authors see regular pages read for the freebie during free promos, that could be because it's being rolled out to authors. Or, if some authors see regular pages read for some books but only one-page read for others, that could be because it's being rolled out to BOOKS.
> 
> It would not explain huge downturns of accounts not associated with freebies. UNLESS there are bugs, and it's not working as it should.
> 
> Again, pure speculation.
> 
> But if so - why not just announce this?


I appreciate the theory, but for most of us it doesn't work out. Most authors will give away free first in series and see follow-through in reads and sales. So there should, presumably, still be pages read for the subsequent books that aren't and probably never have been free.


----------



## KelliWolfe

LSMay said:


> I really don't think any issue here is deliberate. If Amazon wanted to pay us less, they have 2 very easy, very legal ways to do it - *redefine what a 'page' is so we have fewer pages each*, or put less money in overall, so each page is worth less. Sure, people would complain, but people are complaining now, so I don't think the risk of upsetting us by dropping our payouts outweighs the risk of legal action and/or bad press from miscounting the pages read.


Emphasis added. They did that already. It resulted in a roughly 20% across the board reduction in pages in peoples' books. As in this situation, some were impacted more than others.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Colin

Atlantisatheart said:


> AAGS, you say? I just put it down to Amazon's normal default setting; FUBAR.


Yes. That as well.


----------



## S.R.

KelliWolfe said:


> Emphasis added. They did that already. It resulted in a roughly 20% across the board reduction in pages in peoples' books. As in this situation, some were impacted more than others.


It wasn't completely across the board.

The one book I had enrolled in KU at the time they rolled out KENP 2.0 saw an increase in page count by approx. 12%. Before Amazon rolled out the new counts, I had wondered why a lot of authors that had lower word count books than me were assigned higher KENP (in some cases significantly so). Even after my count increased, I was on the low side of others. I don't know enough about the formatting ins and outs that lead to the variability, but I concluded my particular method is not advisable for a book enrolled in KU. 

No doubt if I'd been on the decreasing page count side of the equation I would have been annoyed, but I do believe KENP 2.0 was an attempt to level the page count playing field. I have no idea how many books went up vs. down, but just like in this current situation, I have a feeling that the authors given increased counts were a lot less vocal than the ones dealt page count reductions.


----------



## AllyWho

KelliWolfe said:


> They did that already. It resulted in a roughly 20% across the board reduction in pages in peoples' books.


It wasn't across the board. From what I saw it impacted those formatting with Jutoh, or padding their ebooks to try and increase their KENPC, who were affected most. Many people either had no change at all, or their KENPC went up slightly.


----------



## KelliWolfe

SallyRose said:


> It wasn't completely across the board.





AliceW said:


> It wasn't across the board. From what I saw it impacted those formatting with Jutoh, or padding their ebooks to try and increase their KENPC, who were affected most. Many people either had no change at all, or their KENPC went up slightly.





KelliWolfe said:


> They did that already. It resulted in a *roughly* 20% across the board reduction in pages in peoples' books. As in this situation, *some were impacted more than others*.


Did I stutter in there somewhere? I'm pretty sure I applied a reasonable qualification to reflect that it wasn't every single person in KU and they weren't all reduced equally. I'm not sure how to make that more clear. Obviously it's a gross failing on my part.

From the posts here in WC it was fairly well accepted that there was an overall drop of about 20% - some people were hit significantly worse depending on content and formatting, others were hardly touched at all. In many cases there was no rhyme or reason to it, _just like the situation now_. And much like now there was no transparency to the process, which left a whole lot of people angry and frustrated. Maybe Amazon had a good reason for it and maybe they didn't, but the people looking at 20% less per borrow had no idea which because Amazon follows the same Double Secret Probation rules for KENPC that they do for counting page reads.

If there's a ton of speculation and rumor and accusation about all of this stuff flying around, there's only Amazon to blame. If they didn't insist on trying to be clever and insist that their policies and procedures remain vague to the point of madness so they can change the rules on us at a whim (unlike the other publishers who are much, much more straightforward in things like their content policies), there would be no reason to speculate. We'd know But that's just how Amazon chooses to do business, so we get lots of grist for the rumor mill.


----------



## Jericho

AliceW said:


> It wasn't across the board. From what I saw it impacted those formatting with Jutoh, or padding their ebooks to try and increase their KENPC, who were affected most. Many people either had no change at all, or their KENPC went up slightly.


Not sure this is true. I've never heard of Jutoh. I'm not padding my books. I do have links at the end of my book to other titles, but the story is the bulk of the page reads. (If I understand what you're implying)

I've got a title up right now that has 1 page read as of 12:00 am PST. If it sticks, this makes 36 times this has happened to my account since Sept. 8th when I started. I'll send this in to (Ecr) so they can then tell me there is no issue based on their data. I'll probably include the bit about the "test" mentioned earlier. Fingers crossed on a video or screencast of some sore so I can send that in the next time it happens. I don't have KU, in case anyone is wondering why I don't do it myself.

I put titles up, they get "1 page read." Welcome to my world.


----------



## S.R.

KelliWolfe said:


> Did I stutter in there somewhere? I'm pretty sure I applied a reasonable qualification to reflect that it wasn't every single person in KU and they weren't all reduced equally. I'm not sure how to make that more clear. Obviously it's a gross failing on my part.


Wow!  If I misinterpreted you, I'm sorry. My intention wasn't to ruffle feathers, I was simply responding to the "across the board reduction in pages" comment by pointing out that in my personal case, my pages went up. End of story. Hopefully, we can each respectfully share information and data points for the good of piecing together the whole story on these things.


----------



## rickblackmon

AliceW said:


> It wasn't across the board. From what I saw it impacted those formatting with Jutoh, or padding their ebooks to try and increase their KENPC, who were affected most. Many people either had no change at all, or their KENPC went up slightly.


I don't own Jutoh and I don't pad. I'm down 93%.


----------



## 75814

NotAPenguin said:


> Does anyone think it was deliberate, or an effort to pay indies less?


Oh yeah, it's deliberate. Right now on Amazon Island, inside a hollowed-out volcano (naturally), Jeff Bezos is sitting in his Mao suit, stroking a fluffy white cat, and cackling. PageFlip is just another step in his master plan for world domination.



AliceW said:


> It wasn't across the board. From what I saw it impacted those formatting with Jutoh, or padding their ebooks to try and increase their KENPC, who were affected most. Many people either had no change at all, or their KENPC went up slightly.


I don't think Jutoh is a factor, or if it is, it's not the only factor. All my books are formatted in Scrivener and I've seen a big drop this month in revenue.


----------



## AllyWho

Perry Constantine said:


> I don't think Jutoh is a factor, or if it is, it's not the only factor. All my books are formatted in Scrivener and I've seen a big drop this month in revenue.


I was referring to the change to KU2 that Amazon rolled out back in February. Some people, primarily those using Jutoh or inflating their ebooks length through formatting, saw an approx 20% drop in their KENPC.

As far as I'm aware, no one has mentioned method of formatting in recent issues?


----------



## NotAPenguin

Perry Constantine said:


> Oh yeah, it's deliberate. Right now on Amazon Island, inside a hollowed-out volcano (naturally), Jeff Bezos is sitting in his Mao suit, stroking a fluffy white cat, and cackling. PageFlip is just another step in his master plan for world domination.
> 
> I don't think Jutoh is a factor, or if it is, it's not the only factor. All my books are formatted in Scrivener and I've seen a big drop this month in revenue.


That's what I thought! He has a shark tank for dipping romance authors who get too frisky.

I use scrivnr too and my pages are lowish. I'm not a good example for a variety of reasons but all my stuff is low across the board. Sales and borrows &#128549;


----------



## GoneToWriterSanctum

Perry Constantine said:


> Oh yeah, it's deliberate. Right now on Amazon Island, inside a hollowed-out volcano (naturally), Jeff Bezos is sitting in his Mao suit, stroking a fluffy white cat, and cackling. PageFlip is just another step in his master plan for world domination.


"Do you expect me to talk, Bezos?"

"No, Mr. Author, I expect you to die."


----------



## Guest

NotAPenguin said:


> Are people still saying they are not effected?
> 
> I can't believe this is still happening.
> 
> Does anyone think it was deliberate, or an effort to pay indies less?


Um yeah, I think it's deliberate.

If it wasn't deliberate, wouldn't it have been fixed by now? Wouldn't they have (clears throat) NOT LIED


----------



## 75845

I think the Jutoh issue was that KENPC 1.0 counted the code, which Jutoh has a lot of.

Good coding would be:

"Hello World."

Jutoh would be something like

<p class = "normal">"Hello World

Jutoh also adds a lot of span spam.

<p class = "no indent">"Hello World"

My suspicion is that KENPC 2.0 counted the output text rather than the code, which would see Jutoh numbers fall.

Obviously this is unrelated to the current issue as it doesn't matter what the KENPC is if a large proportion of pages go uncounted.


----------



## tresero

Mercia McMahon said:


> I think the Jutoh issue was that KENPC 1.0 counted the code, which Jutoh has a lot of.
> 
> Good coding would be:
> 
> "Hello World."
> 
> Jutoh would be something like
> 
> <p class = "normal">"Hello World
> 
> Jutoh also adds a lot of span spam.
> 
> <p class = "no indent">"Hello World"
> 
> My suspicion is that KENPC 2.0 counted the output text rather than the code, which would see Jutoh numbers fall.
> 
> Obviously this is unrelated to the current issue as it doesn't matter what the KENPC is if a large proportion of pages go uncounted.


Ummm, no, but good theory. I have jutoh books that still sit at 110 words per KENPC2 page, so...


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## tresero

Atlantisatheart said:


> 110 words... gobsmacked!
> 
> Tell me - what is your secret... no, wait, don't. Anything more than write in word, convert to webpage filtered, save, yes, upload and I'm a headless chicken.
> 
> But still... 110 words


I will admit though that most are at 140 or so, but a far cry from the 200 others are reporting  I even have one at 98.


----------



## 75814

AliceW said:


> I was referring to the change to KU2 that Amazon rolled out back in February. Some people, primarily those using Jutoh or inflating their ebooks length through formatting, saw an approx 20% drop in their KENPC.
> 
> As far as I'm aware, no one has mentioned method of formatting in recent issues?


Ah, my mistake, I misunderstood.


----------



## AllyWho

Perry Constantine said:


> Ah, my mistake, I misunderstood.


No worries  we took a side trip back in time to February & should have made it clearer. A few posters thought we were attributing the KENPC reduction & Jutoh to whatever is going on Sept/Oct, when its not.


----------



## AllyWho

rickblackmon said:


> I don't own Jutoh and I don't pad. I'm down 93%.


My comment was in reference to what happened to KENPC back in February.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Has anyone considered that some evil hacker might be gleefully tampering with page reads and randomly adding and taking them away to mess with our heads (and carefully collected data)?


----------



## NotAPenguin

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Has anyone considered that some evil hacker might be gleefully tampering with page reads and randomly adding and taking them away to mess with our heads (and carefully collected data)?


I wish that was the case. That would mean it would get fixed in the next big update!

I really think they decided they were paying us too much- scammers and non scammers alike!


----------



## Guest

https://www.amazon.com/Big-Eagle-Kristin-Thompson-ebook/dp/B01M9GJZWQ/ref=zg_bsms_digital-text_48
Whatever amazon are trying to do, which is hurting some real authors, it ain't working.


----------



## ClaireR

Have you reported it? The look inside is just one para repeated over and over. Paid rank 240.
This is so disheartening


----------



## Nothing To See

Andrew Murray said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Big-Eagle-Kristin-Thompson-ebook/dp/B01M9GJZWQ/ref=zg_bsms_digital-text_48
> Whatever amazon are trying to do, which is hurting some real authors, it ain't working.


Check out the movers and shakers list.


----------



## CozyReads

Seriously, Amazon? Seriously!!!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/movers-and-shakers/digital-text


----------



## Guest

There are MANY like that in the current movers and shakers... it is disheartening. And in-spite of the fact that some of you writers are not seeing big drops (good for you btw, there is hope) a lot of my author friends are. It's rubbish like this that hurts us all in the end. Even though all of our opinions are different, and some of us fight, I'm sure we can all agree... whatever amazon does, they can't stop this. It will cease, then the scammers will start again. Amazon= just put page reads back to normal for everyone. Your FIXES ain't working.


----------



## bobfrost

That is a huge scam in action! Tons of books sitting in the top 200 with crap fake covers and inside it is a thousand pages of two pasted paragraphs over and over!

There must be hundreds of kindle unlimited accounts mass borrowing these things to put them at these ranks! This is insane!


----------



## JRTomlin

Atlantisatheart said:


> Wouldn't that be called Karma?


So you think people who haven't been affected should be punished.

Very nice.


----------



## Hope

SweetReads said:


> Seriously, Amazon? Seriously!!!
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/movers-and-shakers/digital-text


Unreal. What do we do? Does anyone think it will help to report each title individually? It would take a long time, but this is nuts.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Nothing To See said:


> Check out the movers and shakers list.


Thank you for providing these details. The business team audited the sales ranks using the specific information you shared regarding the movers and shakers list and did not find any systematic issues impacting the lists. Keep in mind that we may make adjustments in the future based on findings from our routine audits.

Please note that individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors. It helps us create a better platform for authors which in turn brings more content to Kindle readers.

Regards,

KelliW
Kindle Direct Publishing


----------



## Hope

How is it even possible for them to get those scam books up that high?  That's thousands of borrows/purchases per book.


----------



## Guest

KelliWolfe said:


> Thank you for providing these details. The business team audited the sales ranks using the specific information you shared regarding the movers and shakers list and did not find any systematic issues impacting the lists. Keep in mind that we may make adjustments in the future based on findings from our routine audits.
> 
> Please note that individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.
> 
> We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors. It helps us create a better platform for authors which in turn brings more content to Kindle readers.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> KelliW
> Kindle Direct Publishing


Is this real, or satire?


----------



## Guest

https://www.amazon.com/Big-Bull-Wesley-Duran-ebook/dp/B01M8O4NS3/ref=zg_bsms_digital-text_37#reader_B01M8O4NS3
My fav story so far. A wondrous yet familiar tale you'll want to read... over and over and over and over...


----------



## J.A. Sutherland

Andrew Murray said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Big-Bull-Wesley-Duran-ebook/dp/B01M8O4NS3/ref=zg_bsms_digital-text_37#reader_B01M8O4NS3
> My fav story so far. A wondrous yet familiar tale you'll want to read... over and over and over and over...


WTAF?

How does this even get past a cursory inspection?


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Andrew Murray said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Big-Bull-Wesley-Duran-ebook/dp/B01M8O4NS3/ref=zg_bsms_digital-text_37#reader_B01M8O4NS3
> My fav story so far. A wondrous yet familiar tale you'll want to read... over and over and over and over...


It even starts mid-sentence!!! Quite shameless. Do they really imagine that no one will notice?


----------



## KelliWolfe

Andrew Murray said:


> Is this real, or satire?


Does it really even matter at this point?


J.A. Sutherland said:


> How does this even get past a cursory inspection?


There are no cursory inspections.


PaulineMRoss said:


> It even starts mid-sentence!!! Quite shameless. Do they really imagine that no one will notice?


That's exactly what they think. Who is going to click on that cover? The blurb says _Children stories_, and that's it. Readers aren't even going to notice it. Their eyes are going to bounce right off and go to the next book in the list. It's camouflage.


----------



## CozyReads

PaulineMRoss said:


> It even starts mid-sentence!!! Quite shameless. Do they really imagine that no one will notice?


They don't care if anyone notices. These are smash-and-grab scammers. Once the borrow rings are done borrowing/reading, the "books" will be pulled from the store and they'll repurpose the content to begin a new round of gaming the system.


----------



## chrisuk78

KelliWolfe said:


> Thank you for providing these details. The business team audited the sales ranks using the specific information you shared regarding the movers and shakers list and did not find any systematic issues impacting the lists. Keep in mind that we may make adjustments in the future based on findings from our routine audits.
> 
> Please note that individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.
> 
> We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors. It helps us create a better platform for authors which in turn brings more content to Kindle readers.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> KelliW
> Kindle Direct Publishing


   

I just had to compare that to the response I received a few weeks back when I asked why my book was no. 1 in my subcategory for two days in a row during a countdown, when my dashboard registered zero sales. This book has consistent steady sales since early 2014, so I "know" or have a very good idea, that to be number one in the sub cat it has to sell around 7 - 10 copies for at least 2 days. During the 5-day countdown, my sales were zero for two days, and registered only one or two sales during the countdown for the remaining days. However, I was the best seller for an entire 48 hours, and no. 2/3 for the rest of the countdown, which rank-wise, is what I expected.

I queried support how I could go from 3/4 sales a day and hang around 5 to 15 in my category, to be the best seller in the category without achieving any sales. After the expected generic answer I got a response from Executive Customer Relations.

"Thanks for sending us your concerns. We've checked our systems using the data you've provided and have found no systematic problems. We also perform ongoing audits to ensure the accuracy of our systems and reporting are maintained.

Keep in mind that sales rank is a complicated metric which includes many factors such as the popularity of other books being released and purchased at that time. Our data shows that sales rank patterns vary over time based on factors like the popularity of new releases, seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors. It helps us create a better platform for authors which in turn brings more content to Kindle readers."

Not copying and pasting much then.


----------



## phoenixwaller

Seriously, that's when amazon should call in the people from mechanical turk, I mean tedious tasks like that are half the reason they made it in the first place, and if you've ever browsed turk listings you know they pay less than peanuts. 

$5, check out these hundred books, flag for repeating content, lorem ipsum, etc. I mean it would be barely a cursory inspection, but better than now.


----------



## Guest

Does it really even matter at this point?

Yep, matters to me.


----------



## J.A. Sutherland

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Has anyone considered that some evil hacker might be gleefully tampering with page reads and randomly adding and taking them away to mess with our heads (and carefully collected data)?


It's the Russians.


----------



## Guest

J.A. Sutherland said:


> It's the Russians.


Email Hilary, quick!


----------



## KelliWolfe

I can't help but think that we're going to see a lot more of this in the run up to Christmas. There's a lot of extra traffic in the store and more KU free months handed out to provide cover for these guys to hide in.


----------



## TellNotShow

Andrew Murray said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Big-Bull-Wesley-Duran-ebook/dp/B01M8O4NS3/ref=zg_bsms_digital-text_37#reader_B01M8O4NS3
> My fav story so far. A wondrous yet familiar tale you'll want to read... over and over and over and over...


Clicking on the author name of this "book" you find that the "author" published five books the same day. Every one of them is two paragraphs repeated thousands of times. Two of the five begin mid-sentence.

Here's where it gets really interesting. The current outright Kindle store rankings of the five "books" are 240, 243, 244, 246, and 248.
Not even the Warrior forum all madly clicking away to the end of each book could produce such consistent ranking, surely. Obviously, it proves bots are involved.

Then here's the bit where I go all Conspiracy Theory Freaky. What if it's Amazon themselves doing this? (It'd explain why we never hear of them prosecuting anyone for what is obviously fraud.) Bezos's nephew, daughter-in-law, son, wife's second cousin thrice removed, all with KDP accounts, and a lone programmer working at Amazon, sticking it to those pesky authors who think they actually deserve 70% of AMAZON's money, just for supplying CONTENT! Outrageous! So, one programmer earns his grand a week making all these scambooks come and go. He has access to as many KU accounts as he wants to press the button on. Amazon keeps advertising that the pool's going up, but they keep taking a higher share of it. There's a novel in here at the least, and it has a whiff of possibility about it, given the other scummy things large corporations are doing. (https://musictechpolicy.com/2016/10/15/google-and-amazon-leverage-copyright-loophole-to-use-songs-without-paying-songwriters/ for one)

Here's the bit where I calm down and get practical. Who among us has access to someone who can get screenshots of these five "books" into a national news supplier? It's obviously an article that should be written, and RIGHT NOW we can see these five books, almost exactly ranked, proof that Amazon's systems are pathetic, and KU is not an honest system that pays its suppliers fairly. Screenshots of the covers, the repetitive Look Inside samples, and the rankings should be published to a large audience. Who among us can get it there?


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

TellNotShow said:


> Clicking on the author name of this "book" you find that the "author" published five books the same day. Every one of them is two paragraphs repeated thousands of times. Two of
> 
> Here's the bit where I calm down and get practical. Who among us has access to someone who can get screenshots of these five "books" into a national news supplier? It's obviously an article that should be written, and RIGHT NOW we can see these five books, almost exactly ranked, proof that Amazon's systems are pathetic, and KU is not an honest system that pays its suppliers fairly. Screenshots of the covers, the repetitive Look Inside samples, and the rankings should be published to a large audience. Who among us can get it there?


Okay, I'll play (although I will probably regret it). How is a national news organization going to care about this? I mean, on the front page of USA Today, what do you see happening? 
1. FBI probes Clinton emails
2. 55th accuser alleges groping by Trump
3. Three people killed in murder suicide
4. Obamacare premiums go up
5. Gas prices go down.
6. Five books that shouldn't be there are on Amazon's movers and shakers list

Um ... how do you think that's going to work. I'm honestly asking.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Yep. No one cares but us. Well, some of us, anyway. To be fair, no one else really has a reason to.


----------



## J.A. Sutherland

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Okay, I'll play (although I will probably regret it). How is a national news organization going to care about this? I mean, on the front page of USA Today, what do you see happening?
> 1. FBI probes Clinton emails
> 2. 55th accuser alleges groping by Trump
> 3. Three people killed in murder suicide
> 4. Obamacare premiums go up
> 5. Gas prices go down.
> 6. Five books that shouldn't be there are on Amazon's movers and shakers list
> 
> Um ... how do you think that's going to work. I'm honestly asking.


Well, the media does hate Amazon almost as much as Uber.


----------



## amdonehere

This is really terrible. Those scam books are taking up almost 40 slots. But they aren't in KU and they're selling at retail price of $9.99. How can this be? What are they doing to get that many real sales?


----------



## SomeoneElse

TellNotShow said:


> Here's the bit where I calm down and get practical. Who among us has access to someone who can get screenshots of these five "books" into a national news supplier? It's obviously an article that should be written, and RIGHT NOW we can see these five books, almost exactly ranked, proof that Amazon's systems are pathetic, and KU is not an honest system that pays its suppliers fairly. Screenshots of the covers, the repetitive Look Inside samples, and the rankings should be published to a large audience. Who among us can get it there?


Yes, it sucks that those books have even made it into the store, let alone so high up, but that doesn't mean it's going to pay off. Users on these boards have had their accounts suspended for suspicious activity that was a whole lot less suspicious than those books.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

AlexaKang said:


> This is really terrible. Those scam books are taking up almost 40 slots. But they aren't in KU and they're selling at retail price of $9.99. How can this be? What are they doing to get that many real sales?


What are you talking about? They're all in KU (at least the ones I saw).


----------



## amdonehere

Amanda M. Lee said:


> What are you talking about? They're all in KU (at least the ones I saw).


I'm talking about these in the "Movers and Shakers" from the link above.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

I don't know why the tag isn't showing up for you, but those are all in KU.


----------



## KelliWolfe

We need to get the reviewers from B&N to come over and give some love to these books.


----------



## LindsayBuroker

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Okay, I'll play (although I will probably regret it). How is a national news organization going to care about this? I mean, on the front page of USA Today, what do you see happening?
> 1. FBI probes Clinton emails
> 2. 55th accuser alleges groping by Trump
> 3. Three people killed in murder suicide
> 4. Obamacare premiums go up
> 5. Gas prices go down.
> 6. Five books that shouldn't be there are on Amazon's movers and shakers list
> 
> Um ... how do you think that's going to work. I'm honestly asking.


#6 is WAY more interesting than gas prices and Obamacare.

Zzzzzzzzzzz

Probably more interesting than 1 and 2, too, since that's such played out news. That's actually a pretty pitiful lineup, USA Today!

Er, what was the topic of the thread?


----------



## Anarchist

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Okay, I'll play (although I will probably regret it). How is a national news organization going to care about this? I mean, on the front page of USA Today, what do you see happening?
> 1. FBI probes Clinton emails
> 2. 55th accuser alleges groping by Trump
> 3. Three people killed in murder suicide
> 4. Obamacare premiums go up
> 5. Gas prices go down.
> 6. Five books that shouldn't be there are on Amazon's movers and shakers list
> 
> Um ... how do you think that's going to work. I'm honestly asking.


It's not going to happen.

The only way this will get visibility is via social. And for that, it needs a catchy, Buzzfeed-like headline like "_Here's Why 7,346 Authors Want To Burn Jeff Bezos At The Stake_."


----------



## KelliWolfe

Well, there's one hook you could use, and that's that almost all of these are in the childrens' books section. They've taken up 40-ish slots in the top 100 list. People tend to get a bit more riled up over issues affecting kids and they'd probably be a lot more sympathetic to childrens' book authors than they would be to most genre authors.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Anarchist said:


> It's not going to happen.
> 
> The only way this will get visibility is via social. And for that, it needs a catchy, Buzzfeed-like headline like "_Here's Why 7,346 Authors Want To Burn Jeff Bezos At The Stake_."


Don't miss this one weird tip to get all your page reads back.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Don't miss this one weird tip to get all your page reads back.


Brilliant. 

Now you just need to put together a video series for $499.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

KelliWolfe said:


> Brilliant.
> 
> Now you just need to put together a video series for $499.


Starring my dog and five-year-old grandaughter. Nothing sells like dogs and kids.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

This confirms my suspicions that the scamming problem at Amazon is much worse than they've let on.  The pages read issues and other problems we see are actually Amazon fighting a very quiet battle against rampant abuse and scamming of the KU system. The end result being some innocent authors are being caught up as collateral damage. The scammers aren't going away - we're talking overnight fortunes being made here. It's much much too tempting. 

Amazon will never ever admit this publicly, and in their shoes, I wouldn't either. 

The thing is - there is nothing any of us can do about this. This is Amazon's battle. Yup many of us are in the crossfire. The best we can do is duck-and-cover.  The only thing I blame Amazon for is launching their pages read system, with no real safeguards against abuse.  They are now trying to plug the systems weaknesses after the fact.  We all know how well that sort of scenario usually works out.


----------



## tresero

Gentleman Zombie said:


> This confirms my suspicions that the scamming problem at Amazon is much worse than they've let on. The pages read issues and other problems we see are actually Amazon fighting a very quiet battle against rampant abuse and scamming of the KU system. The end result being some innocent authors are being caught up as collateral damage. The scammers aren't going away - we're talking overnight fortunes being made here. It's much much too tempting.
> 
> Amazon will never ever admit this publicly, and in their shoes, I wouldn't either.
> 
> The thing is - there is nothing any of us can do about this. This is Amazon's battle. Yup many of us are in the crossfire. The best we can do is duck-and-cover. The only thing I blame Amazon for is launching their pages read system, with no real safeguards against abuse. They are now trying to plug the systems weaknesses after the fact. We all know how well that sort of scenario usually works out.


What overnight fortunes? These books will never get paid out.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Gentleman Zombie said:


> This confirms my suspicions that the scamming problem at Amazon is much worse than they've let on. The pages read issues and other problems we see are actually Amazon fighting a very quiet battle against rampant abuse and scamming of the KU system. The end result being some innocent authors are being caught up as collateral damage. The scammers aren't going away - we're talking overnight fortunes being made here. It's much much too tempting.
> 
> Amazon will never ever admit this publicly, and in their shoes, I wouldn't either.
> 
> The thing is - there is nothing any of us can do about this. This is Amazon's battle. Yup many of us are in the crossfire. The best we can do is duck-and-cover. The only thing I blame Amazon for is launching their pages read system, with no real safeguards against abuse. They are now trying to plug the systems weaknesses after the fact. We all know how well that sort of scenario usually works out.


Amazon has a system to detect if content published on one account appears on another account, and when that happens they automatically request copyright confirmation.

Yet no one thought to put in a check for book files with the same sentence repeated tens of thousands of times. They obviously have automated systems to review book content but it doesn't detect the most basic and obvious way to scam KU.

Instead of doing that, their solution is to institute an obviously and flagrantly broken fraudulent reading activity detection system. Oh, and ignore at least two ways that Kindles don't record *legitimate* activity.

This is ludicrous.


----------



## TellNotShow

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Okay, I'll play (although I will probably regret it). How is a national news organization going to care about this? I mean, on the front page of USA Today, what do you see happening?
> 1. FBI probes Clinton emails
> 2. 55th accuser alleges groping by Trump
> 3. Three people killed in murder suicide
> 4. Obamacare premiums go up
> 5. Gas prices go down.
> 6. Five books that shouldn't be there are on Amazon's movers and shakers list
> 
> Um ... how do you think that's going to work. I'm honestly asking.


You're completely right, of course. But I didn't ever expect it might get on the front page - just, you know, somewhere.

The fact the books are so easily found, and are making it onto those bestseller lists, and keeping OUR books off those lists, shows that Amazon's system does NOT work the way they say it does. It ISN'T working. The whole KU thing doesn't accurately measure pages READ, as Amazon keep assuring us it does. If it did, there wouldn't be any point in these people publishing these books. SOME of them are getting through the first net, some the next net, some are making it all the way through, and some of these scammers are being paid. They ARE receiving a share of OUR monies. Therefore, Amazon are themselves committing fraud against their suppliers, because they're not paying suppliers for what they've contracted to pay them for - which is their actual share of pages READ.



KelliWolfe said:


> Well, there's one hook you could use, and that's that almost all of these are in the childrens' books section. They've taken up 40-ish slots in the top 100 list. People tend to get a bit more riled up over issues affecting kids and they'd probably be a lot more sympathetic to childrens' book authors than they would be to most genre authors.


Wow, I didn't know it was so many books. You're right, that's a great hook. 40% of Amazon's Top 100 childrens books teach your children that books are made up of two less than literate paragraphs repeated 10,000 times. "I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again.I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again. I will not bother ever reading a book again." 
Etcetera etcetera etcetera.

It could be argued that it's teaching children not to bother with books, or reading. Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.Repetitive and boring. Repetitive and boring.

Woops. I'm doing it again... (Must have learned it as a kid.)


----------



## TellNotShow

Acrocanthosaurus said:


> If what we've seen is Amazon's solution, it shows how incompetent they are.
> 
> Amazon has a system to detect if content published on one account appears on another account, and when that happens they automatically request copyright confirmation.
> 
> Yet no one thought to put in a check for book files with the same sentence repeated tens of thousands of times. They obviously have automated systems to review book content but it doesn't detect the most basic and obvious way to scam KU.
> 
> Instead of doing that, their solution is to institute an obviously and flagrantly broken fraudulent reading activity detection system. Oh, and ignore at least two ways that Kindles don't record *legitimate* activity.
> 
> This is ludicrous.


Exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Woops. Sorry.

Exactly.


----------



## KelliWolfe

tresero said:


> What overnight fortunes? These books will never get paid out.


How do you know? Some of these people got All Stars Bonuses a few months back. That's how on top of this problem Amazon is. Maybe they're catching some of these people, but they're the ones like this scammer who are being stupid and pushing the limits. They get noticed and reported. But for each one of these, how many do you think there are who play it smart and keep their heads down? It's not difficult to figure out how to do it.

It takes 2220 page reads to hit the break even point on a $9.99 KU subscription. Lots of romance readers will go through that in a _week_, so you can have bots or paid readers mimic that behavior to earn back about $40 each month for the $9.99 investment. 2220 pages is about seven 350 page books. Create a stack of accounts with 7 - 14 of those books in each account, and then cycle your pool of bots/readers through them. If you're reasonably smart about it you can keep the traffic and payouts on each account low enough that none of them trips the fraud detection system.

If *I* can think of that, do you think the Warrior Forum types haven't perfected a system for doing this ages ago? The only reason we're talking about this now is because someone was being greedy and/or stupid and called attention to herself. If she had spread the reads out over more accounts so that those books didn't hit the top lists none of us would have ever noticed, would we?


----------



## 75814

KelliWolfe said:


> Well, there's one hook you could use, and that's that almost all of these are in the childrens' books section. They've taken up 40-ish slots in the top 100 list. People tend to get a bit more riled up over issues affecting kids and they'd probably be a lot more sympathetic to childrens' book authors than they would be to most genre authors.


People get riled up over issues affecting kids when it's something like sex or language. Not every issue affecting kids gets people riled up--not even child poverty is enough to get people to give a crap these days. So nonsense books turning up on Amazon's best-seller list? That doesn't even reach the public attention level of Kanye saying something stupid.


----------



## tresero

KelliWolfe said:


> How do you know? Some of these people got All Stars Bonuses a few months back. That's how on top of this problem Amazon is. Maybe they're catching some of these people, but they're the ones like this scammer who are being stupid and pushing the limits. They get noticed and reported. But for each one of these, how many do you think there are who play it smart and keep their heads down? It's not difficult to figure out how to do it.
> 
> It takes 2220 page reads to hit the break even point on a $9.99 KU subscription. Lots of romance readers will go through that in a _week_, so you can have bots or paid readers mimic that behavior to earn back about $40 each month for the $9.99 investment. 2220 pages is about seven 350 page books. Create a stack of accounts with 7 - 14 of those books in each account, and then cycle your pool of bots/readers through them. If you're reasonably smart about it you can keep the traffic and payouts on each account low enough that none of them trips the fraud detection system.
> 
> If *I* can think of that, do you think the Warrior Forum types haven't perfected a system for doing this ages ago? The only reason we're talking about this now is because someone was being greedy and/or stupid and called attention to herself. If she had spread the reads out over more accounts so that those books didn't hit the top lists none of us would have ever noticed, would we?


I guarantee you "these" books won't get a payout. Are there other scammers? Sure.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

SweetReads said:


> They don't care if anyone notices. These are smash-and-grab scammers. Once the borrow rings are done borrowing/reading, the "books" will be pulled from the store and they'll repurpose the content to begin a new round of gaming the system.


It takes two months to get a payout from Amazon. The scammers have to stay undetected for that length of time to make any money from it. But this example is SO outrageously blatant, there's no possibility of it escaping either Amazon's fraud detection bots or the eagle eyes of Kboarders. So I wonder whether it's not meant to be a real scam. Maybe it's Amazon's programmers testing their fraud detection software?


----------



## phoenixwaller

PaulineMRoss said:


> It takes two months to get a payout from Amazon. The scammers have to stay undetected for that length of time to make any money from it. But this example is SO outrageously blatant, there's no possibility of it escaping either Amazon's fraud detection bots or the eagle eyes of Kboarders. So I wonder whether it's not meant to be a real scam. Maybe it's Amazon's programmers testing their fraud detection software?


I'd personally hedge my bets on scams that blatant being the cover. Put a number of ones attracting attention out front like that, knowing they'll be taken down, but in the meantime the more covert ones are going undetected cause fraud detection is on the noticeable ones.


----------



## Gator

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Okay, I'll play (although I will probably regret it). How is a national news organization going to care about this? I mean, on the front page of USA Today, what do you see happening?
> 1. FBI probes Clinton emails
> 2. 55th accuser alleges groping by Trump
> 3. Three people killed in murder suicide
> 4. Obamacare premiums go up
> 5. Gas prices go down.
> 6. Five books that shouldn't be there are on Amazon's movers and shakers list
> *Russian Programmer Earns $1.8 Million A Year On Amazon! How You Can, Too!*
> 
> Um ... how do you think that's going to work? I'm honestly asking.


There. Fixed it for ya.


----------



## E.M. Cooper

As a children's book author, I just splurged 100 US dollars on a Freebooksy ad for the first in a series (while launching the last book). I feel like I've chosen the wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong weekend.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

phoenixwaller said:


> I'd personally hedge my bets on scams that blatant being the cover. Put a number of ones attracting attention out front like that, knowing they'll be taken down, but in the meantime the more covert ones are going undetected cause fraud detection is on the noticeable ones.


Well, maybe. But the fraud detection software is completely automatic. Whatever algorithms it uses, it must surely apply them equally to all books, or else what's the point? So even the covert ones SHOULD be spotted IF they're doing the things the software is set up to catch. Heaven knows, there are enough false positives to suggest that the rules are pretty strict. But this is all wild speculation. Who knows what's really going on? Not me!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Andrew Murray said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Big-Eagle-Kristin-Thompson-ebook/dp/B01M9GJZWQ/ref=zg_bsms_digital-text_48
> Whatever amazon are trying to do, which is hurting some real authors, it ain't working.


----------



## Crystal_

Wouldn't most of these issues be fixed by mandatory review by an actual human, say for all books published in KDP. I wouldn't mind paying a fee the way Apple developers do (I believe it's $100/yr) to make that happen, but I understand why don't people doubt Amazon's ability to implement this policy fairly.


----------



## jason2505

This is such a joke. Real authors getting hit by KU and their latest fraud detection systems, but these kind of books are allowed to sell and rank in the top 300 BSR. 

Again, what annoys me the most is KDPs communication. Always the same standard replies and no sign of individual support.


----------



## JumpingShip

AlexaKang said:


> This is really terrible. Those scam books are taking up almost 40 slots. But they aren't in KU and they're selling at retail price of $9.99. How can this be? What are they doing to get that many real sales?


What if they are being bought with stolen credit card info? We read about hacked corporate computers all the time. It could be a way for hackers to massively cash in. They want cash, not goods, and this is a way to get it.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## MissingAlaska

There is a part of me that wonders if trade publishing isn't behind some of this.  Tie up visibility with scams and you eliminate the indie threat.


----------



## H.C.

michaelsnuckols said:


> There is a part of me that wonders if trade publishing isn't behind some of this. Tie up visibility with scams and you eliminate the indie threat.


Sounds like a plot for a good KU novel!


----------



## Anarchist

Gator said:


> Russian Programmer Earns $1.8 Million A Year On Amazon! How You Can, Too!


haha That's pretty good.

Added a couple tweaks...

*15-Year-Old Russian Programmer Earns $1.8 Million A Year Creating Amazon Books (Writing Just Two Small Paragraphs)!*


----------



## KelliWolfe

I can't be the only one thinking of it.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I hope everyone is using the report links at the bottom of the page for these and marking them  as TOS violations. Amazon doesn't care about one star reviews on products.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## Gator

PhoenixS said:


> Looks like those scambooks have been/are now being removed.


The 40 consecutive scam books in the "Movers and Shakers in the Kindle Store" list continue to move up in sales ranks, from the high 400s the day before yesterday, mostly to the mid-200s yesterday, and mostly to the mid- and high 100s today, though not completely consecutive on the list any longer (#43 to #99). These 40 $9.99 books continue to get large numbers of borrows daily since they were published October 26th.

I'm wondering why Amazon hasn't removed them yet. Maybe they're watching to see just how greedy this person is?


----------



## Gator

Anarchist said:


> haha That's pretty good.
> 
> Added a couple tweaks...
> 
> *15-Year-Old Russian Programmer Earns $1.8 Million A Year Creating Amazon Books (Writing Just Two Small Paragraphs)!*


Ha! Yours is better than mine!


----------



## sela

Here's a screenshot of the movers and shakers. You can see some are no longer available but others are still selling. You might think that someone at Amazon might check out the movers and shakers and bestsellers lists to see if there are more. I guess not.


----------



## sela

37 of the top 100 movers and shakers are now these scam booklets. We have The Dog and Donkey next to Lee Child's latest.



Amazon may not care about these scam books pushing out indie romance authors, but Lee Child?


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if these scammers do this on weekends because the response is slower and it's easier to get away with it.

The wizard scamlet has been in he store before, I saw it earlier this year. It appears to be pretty much effortless to get these through.


----------



## MCwrites

Has anyone noticed page reads going backwards? 

I just happen to be obsessively updating on one tab with book report open in another and on a couple of occasions the KENP read number has rolled back. For example, say the dashboard is showing 4025 pages read, then ten minutes later it's saying it's only had 3887 read. 

Not sure if that's a normal thing- I'm pretty green here. But I figured once a page was read, it was considered payable and counted, so not sure why it would roll back for any reason?


----------



## KelliWolfe

sela said:


> 37 of the top 100 movers and shakers are now these scam booklets. We have The Dog and Donkey next to Lee Child's latest.
> 
> Amazon may not care about these scam books pushing out indie romance authors, but Lee Child?


Does anyone actually look at that list? I didn't even know it existed until yesterday, and I still have no idea how to navigate to it from the Amazon front page.

If these books were pushing him out of the genre top 100 lists or the overall store top 100 list I could see where his publisher might get a little agitated, but these scam books are all categorized as children's books so that isn't happening.


----------



## Gator

MCwrites said:


> Has anyone noticed page reads going backwards?
> 
> I just happen to be obsessively updating on one tab with book report open in another and on a couple of occasions the KENP read number has rolled back. For example, say the dashboard is showing 4025 pages read, then ten minutes later it's saying it's only had 3887 read.
> 
> Not sure if that's a normal thing- I'm pretty green here. But I figured once a page was read, it was considered payable and counted, so not sure why it would roll back for any reason?


It seems to be normal now. The Kindle software isn't capable of counting pages read. It just records the location the KU reader was on when the book closes and sends that info to the mother ship. If your reader skips back to earlier in the book, the new location is recorded and sent to the mother ship on the next data sync.

Your reader backtracked 138 pages in your book, so you'll not get paid for those pages.

_ETA:_ Maybe it's not the new normal. Some authors reported that their pages disappeared, but they didn't report that the missing pages returned minutes later, as the authors in this thread have reported. That would indicate this "glitch" isn't a glitch but is actually the way Amazon's NoSQL database returns query results, where speed is more important than accurate data. Nothing to worry about. Just requery (refresh the page).


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

They are checking on some things. Just got an email to tell me to remove the tag 'Kindle' from one of my books (forgot I'd put it in ages ago).


----------



## Hope

MCwrites said:


> Has anyone noticed page reads going backwards?
> 
> I just happen to be obsessively updating on one tab with book report open in another and on a couple of occasions the KENP read number has rolled back. For example, say the dashboard is showing 4025 pages read, then ten minutes later it's saying it's only had 3887 read.
> 
> Not sure if that's a normal thing- I'm pretty green here. But I figured once a page was read, it was considered payable and counted, so not sure why it would roll back for any reason?


Did it roll backward on BookReport or on the kdp dashboard? I have both open in tabs next to each other. I have never seen it happen in BookReport, but on the dashboard, I'll refresh it, and the pages read will roll back maybe a hundred or so. When I see that, I immediately refresh the page and it goes back to where it was. It looks to me like a glitch of some sort on the page itself, because I have never actually lost any page counts. They always come back immediately when I refresh the page.


----------



## SomeoneElse

katygirl said:


> Did it roll backward on BookReport or on the kdp dashboard? I have both open in tabs next to each other. I have never seen it happen in BookReport, but on the dashboard, I'll refresh it, and the pages read will roll back maybe a hundred or so. When I see that, I immediately refresh the page and it goes back to where it was. It looks to me like a glitch of some sort on the page itself, because I have never actually lost any page counts. They always come back immediately when I refresh the page.


I've seen this on days I've been obsessively checking my reads/sales. I don't know the technicalities of why, but if page reads are very new, they can disappear after a refresh. Some of mine have taken a minute or so (and a refresh) to come back. But they always do come back - I've never seen any disappear and stay gone.


----------



## Hope

LSMay said:


> I've seen this on days I've been obsessively checking my reads/sales. I don't know the technicalities of why, but if page reads are very new, they can disappear after a refresh. Some of mine have taken a minute or so (and a refresh) to come back. But they always do come back - I've never seen any disappear and stay gone.


Mine always come back, too. I've only been full time for the last two months, so I am very obsessive and keep a close eye on it.


----------



## 75814

I just checked the movers and shakers. Not one of the scam books appears to be there anymore.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

I'm keeping my books in KU for now because KU2 has done way better for me than wide. That might change at some point, but for now, I'm sticking.

What I am going to do is cancel my KU subscription. Because of the odd way I read, I'm sure I've done some very deserving authors out of their full page reads.


----------



## JumpingShip

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> They are checking on some things. Just got an email to tell me to remove the tag 'Kindle' from one of my books (forgot I'd put it in ages ago).


Clearly, that is WAY more important than scam books. You can't get anything by Amazon!


----------



## Going Incognito

Perry Constantine said:


> I just checked the movers and shakers. Not one of the scam books appears to be there anymore.


I'm still seeing them, all over the first page.


----------



## katrina46

This thread is so long now I might have missed it, but is anyone else back to normal now? All of my page reads and sales seem to be back to where they were. They've been holding steady for several days now.


----------



## Gator

Going Incognito said:


> I'm ill seeing them, all over the first page.


Those are different titles that rode the botmobile to sales ranks 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 259, 260, and 261 in the last hour.

The scammer is just taunting Amazon.


----------



## Going Incognito

Gator said:


> Those are different titles that rode the botmobile to sales ranks 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 259, 260, and 261 in the last hour.
> 
> The scammer is just taunting Amazon.


Wow. Just... wow.


----------



## 75814

Going Incognito said:


> I'm still seeing them, all over the first page.


Those weren't there when I posted my comment. Compiling the ASINs to email to KDP right now.


----------



## KelliWolfe

*Why?* Stop doing KDP's work for them. Maybe if it gets to the point where more of the top lists are flooded with these things and customers start to complain then Amazon will actually have to get off of their butts and do something to address the problem, rather than dealing with all of these as one-offs and pretending that everything is A-OK.

It's their problem. Let them fix it. Until it really blows up in their faces, all that reporting individual books popping into the top lists does is prolong Amazon's ability to deny that any real issue exists.


----------



## 75814

KelliWolfe said:


> *Why?* Stop doing KDP's work for them. Maybe if it gets to the point where more of the top lists are flooded with these things and customers start to complain then Amazon will actually have to get off of their butts and do something to address the problem, rather than dealing with all of these as one-offs and pretending that everything is A-OK.
> 
> It's their problem. Let them fix it. Until it really blows up in their faces, all that reporting individual books popping into the top lists does is prolong Amazon's ability to deny that any real issue exists.


You do what you want, I'll do what I want.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Perry Constantine said:


> Those weren't there when I posted my comment. Compiling the ASINs to email to KDP right now.


It might actually be more effective if you could screen-cap and document, to trad publishers pushed down by these scammers, that _they_ are being hurt. E.g., if a Random House e-book was being pushed down by the scam books, sending evidence to Random House might result in much greater pressure on Amazon than anything we could come up with.

Just a thought. An evil thought, yes, but a thought.


----------



## JRTomlin

KelliWolfe said:


> *Why?* Stop doing KDP's work for them. Maybe if it gets to the point where more of the top lists are flooded with these things and customers start to complain then Amazon will actually have to get off of their butts and do something to address the problem, rather than dealing with all of these as one-offs and pretending that everything is A-OK.
> 
> It's their problem. Let them fix it. Until it really blows up in their faces, all that reporting individual books popping into the top lists does is prolong Amazon's ability to deny that any real issue exists.


Oh, you think it isn't the authors' problem who are being pushed off the list? Not sure they'd agree.


----------



## Gator

Gator said:


> Those are different titles that rode the botmobile to sales ranks 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 259, 260, and 261 in the last hour.
> 
> The scammer is just taunting Amazon.


Hmm. That's interesting. In the last hour, these books have moved up to sales ranks 146 to 157 (skipping a couple places), with the "previously unranked" notifications. That means they each rode the botmobile for about 750 to 800 borrows within an hour about 4 to 6 hours ago.

The scammer is just showing off, 'cause he can.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Getting back to the thread topic for a moment ...

I've read this thread through from the beginning and been keeping up, day to day, with further developments. I've also been following the news over on the KDP forums.

My non-writing background is DP/IT. I began programming and doing systems work back in 1971, so I have some experience.

Regarding my personal sales, they cliffed in September, and October might as well not have happened at all, for all the good it did me. Unfortunately, I'm still starting out and sales statistics would likely be irregular from week to week anyway, but the dramatic drop in pages read (and even orders) was surprising, especially since I was selling at (for me) a good clip at the end of August.

Here are some thoughts that I've had (though, of course, I can't "prove" anything):

1. The irregularity of authors that have been hit. If, e.g., Stephen King's manager noted a 90% drop in KU reads, you could be certain that there'd be hell to pay. Same for other large sellers. It would not be technically hard to put flags in the books of the large sellers that would say to the new Kindle software, "Use the old way of determining page count, not the new one." Do I know this is happening? No. But it is certainly technically simple to do.

2. The irregularity of authors being hit might even be a test feature of the new Kindle software. E.g., to determine the difference in the old page count method vs. the new page count method, authors could be selected for one method or the other based on something as simple as a hash-count of the author's last name. Do I know this is the case? No. But it would also be easy to set up.

Later Edit: And, combining 1 with 2 is also possible; that would explain just about all the page-read symptoms we're seeing, including, e.g., someone who complains and then starts to see things return to normal (following the #1 hypothesis, their books might, subsequent to the complaint, be flagged to use the old method).

3. One truly troubling aspect is the possibility that _orders_ and _sales_ are somehow affected. Notjohn, a long-time poster over on the KDP forums, reports that his paperback (CreateSpace) sales are overtaking his e-book sales, a truly bizarre result. How a straight sale could be affected by KU software I have no idea. We could be seeing a whole separate problem here. I hope not, but I'm at the point where I, myself, have become suspicious of the accuracy of the Orders graph.

4. The bit about the pages-read count being the current page on which a reader is sitting when they exit the book is mind-blowingly stupid. Not even a Computer Systems 101 student would make such a mistake. And, my full-sized volume, The Dinosaur Chronicles, is a collection. I can just see a reader reading a story or two and then setting the pointer back to the TOC. (Note: I have not tested this myself, but I have seen suspicious 1, 4, 6, 8-page reads on the blue graph.)

One thing that appears not to have changed: Borrows look like they still affect ranking fairly rapidly. Sales, because sales are so much more of Amazon's business, appear to affect rankings on a staggered basis (to spread out the updating) in one to several hours after the sale.


----------



## KelliWolfe

JRTomlin said:


> Oh, you think it isn't the authors' problem who are being pushed off the list? Not sure they'd agree.


Yes, it's a problem for us. But it isn't our problem to *fix*. It's a systemic issue that can only be addressed by Amazon making some desperately needed changes to their process.

The problem is that Amazon does nothing like that without a LOT of incentive. By reporting these incidents and letting Amazon continue dealing with only the worst offenders on a one-off basis, the problem never rises to a point where they feel compelled to do anything to fix it.

Now, if Bezos was to pull up the main store's top 100 list one morning and see 60 scammer titles in there, phone calls would be made and emails would be sent and things would _happen_. So why not leave the scammers alone and make themselves such a thorn in Amazon's side that they are compelled to do something to fix the problem instead of just banning a couple of accounts that will be replaced with new ones before the notification email from KDP hits their inbox?


----------



## ImaWriter

Gator said:


> ...the botmobile ...


Have you no shame? Did you get consent to use that? I'm pretty sure Phoenix slapped a TM on that. 

jk


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## sela

Hot New Release: The Donkey in Meadow and other gems:


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Popping in to ask people to watch the tone.  Discuss passionately, but let's not make personal comments about each other...and remember, this IS a discussion board.  Members are allowed to post their opinions. 

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## sela

HOLY COW - The Donkey in Meadow is now up to #46 in the Kindle Store Hot New Releases!  #128 in the Kindle Store! Will it break 100?

Place yer bets, Ladies and Gents...


----------



## sela

Now, The Donkey in Meadow is #3 on the Movers and Shakers!


----------



## KelliWolfe

_The Crying Chicken_. OMG. I am laughing so hard. I don't know why it's so funny, but it is. 

I am almost to the point of believing that this really is someone just screwing with Amazon for the fun of it, as was speculated a couple of pages back.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## bobfrost

That's because the scammer is using hundreds of US KU accounts. 

I'd guess 500 KU accounts or more.

3000 kenpc books = almost $15 per borrow. 500 borrows = nearly $7500 for each book published.

Times 50 titles... $375,000 in a few days. 

And this may have been going on in smaller numbers for months. Or years...


----------



## PhoenixS

bobfrost said:


> That's because the scammer is using hundreds of US KU accounts.
> 
> I'd guess 500 KU accounts or more.
> 
> 3000 kenpc books = almost $15 per borrow. 500 borrows = nearly $7500 for each book published.
> 
> Times 50 titles... $375,000 in a few days.
> 
> And this may have been going on in smaller numbers for months. Or years...


Like minds... I posted something similar in the other scambook thread (which would normally have been merged with this one -- but the only good way to do that would be to pull these last couple of pages into that thread). Honestly, with the first book at #128, I think your 500 borrows is about half what the actual number is to hit the ranks they have.


----------



## LadyStarlight

bobfrost said:


> That's because the scammer is using hundreds of US KU accounts.
> 
> I'd guess 500 KU accounts or more.
> 
> 3000 kenpc books = almost $15 per borrow. 500 borrows = nearly $7500 for each book published.
> 
> Times 50 titles... $375,000 in a few days.
> 
> And this may have been going on in smaller numbers for months. Or years...


There. Are. Just. No. Words. 

Meanwhile, a lot of us are seeing a catastrophic drop in income without any consolation from Amazon that we're not imagining things.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Plus getting yelled at by KDP because we've got "Kindle" in our keyword lists, and other assorted silliness.

And for every one of these guys like this that we see, how many more are there skating by under the radar? A hundred? A thousand? It isn't as though it takes a rocket scientist to set up one of these scammer systems.


----------



## Gator

ImaWriter said:


> Have you no shame? Did you get consent to use that? I'm pretty sure Phoenix slapped a TM on that.
> 
> jk


Not only do I have no shame, I even told Phoenix I was stealing it!


----------



## Gator

PhoenixS said:


> #128-138 now. One of the ones pulled made it to #127 early this morning (CT).
> 
> Another thought: They could be autoset for 1000 *sales/reads* each. That would keep them just outside the Top 100. And it may not have been Amazon that even pulled the earlier ones. As soon as all 1000 copies were *bought and read*, the scammer may have been the one to pull them. $14 X 1000 = $14,000 per book. The 10 books that are up right now = at least $140,000 in profit assuming the books are being bot read or click-farm read. That's a pretty good day's take. No need really to keep them up beyond that point.


You hit the nail on the head, Phoenix, but I think you underestimate his greed. He's going to go right past 1,000 borrows with each BotMobile and keep going. (#106 to 116 now.)


----------



## tresero

Atlantisatheart said:


> None of these books have any ranking in the UK store.


How do you even find this? The movers and shakers.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## jason2505

LadyStarlight said:


> There. Are. Just. No. Words.
> 
> Meanwhile, a lot of us are seeing a catastrophic drop in income without any consolation from Amazon that we're not imagining things.


This.


----------



## H.C.

They caught and scolded me for having "KU" and "Kindle" in my keywords and wouldn't let my book release but these guys can sit in the Top 10 movers and shakers for HOW LONG??


----------



## TellNotShow

Forget the Movers and Shakers list - these pieces of garbage are now ranked in every spot from 56 to 65 outright in the Kindle store.

Oh, how I wish they'd keep going and become 1 to 10.

Of course, it's also kinda scammy that one of Amazon's own books, four years after release, has 7,000 reviews and is at number 75 in the store. I read it soon after its release, and to tell you the truth, I'm actually more entertained by the two repeating paragraphs in "The Donkey in Meadow." I mean, it starts with the line "Indeed, even morons have a couple traps." Also, I think Denzil the Jackass may be based on Jeff Bezos, and Mr Wolf based on the scammers. Or possibly the other way round - it's getting hard to tell one scammer from another.


----------



## H.C.

I've heard that if you put the stories together there is a message. Talking about what they do, why they do it, etc told through the two paragraph stories.


----------



## MCwrites

Gator, Katygirl, LSMay, (sorry not sure how to multi-quote) thanks.

Good to know it's likely not anything to worry about. I'm not sure if those exact page reads ever came back on KDP because I had to stop being obsessive for a few hours, lol, but I did stick around long enough to see it add back exactly 1 page read before it updated again.

Also, this thread is about the only thing that's been able to distract me from the election.


----------



## TheLass

TellNotShow said:


> Of course, it's also kinda scammy that one of Amazon's own books, four years after release, has 7,000 reviews and is at number 75 in the store. I read it soon after its release, and to tell you the truth, I'm actually more entertained by the two repeating paragraphs in "The Donkey in Meadow." I mean, it starts with the line "Indeed, even morons have a couple traps." Also, I think Denzil the Jackass may be based on Jeff Bezos, and Mr Wolf based on the scammers. Or possibly the other way round - it's getting hard to tell one scammer from another.


Yeah, it won't be a good situation if/when Amazon publishes the only books that sell.


----------



## MCwrites

Donkey in the Meadow is #55 in the top 100 paid


----------



## Colin

MCwrites said:


> Also, this thread is about the only thing that's been able to distract me from the election.


Election? What election?


----------



## Colin

MCwrites said:


> Donkey in the Meadow is #55 in the top 100 paid


Could the donkey possibly be linked to this election you talk about?

We need to know!


----------



## MCwrites

Colin said:


> Could the donkey possibly be linked to this election you talk about?
> 
> We need to know!


It's a conspiracy! The donkey did it.


----------



## Colin

MCwrites said:


> It's a conspiracy! The donkey did it.


Yes. A conspiracy of elephantine proportions.


----------



## H.C.

I'm afraid to look where "Clever Man" has climbed to  

I reported this stuff yesterday and all are still listed. Meanwhile my book couldn't make it through review because I had KU in the keywords


----------



## MCwrites

Colin said:


> Yes. A conspiracy of elephantine proportions.


I see what you did there...

Herefortheride, it is a little disheartening, isn't it? What I don't understand is how it could possibly be on the top 100 list. Is that all borrows, or are people actually buying it?


----------



## H.C.

MCwrites said:


> I see what you did there...
> 
> Herefortheride, it is a little disheartening, isn't it? What I don't understand is how it could possibly be on the top 100 list. Is that all borrows, or are people actually buying it?


These are ALL borrows. There are like 500+ bot accounts. This is a massive operation. They are getting multiple full read throughs per minute.


----------



## SidK

MCwrites said:


> Donkey in the Meadow is #55 in the top 100 paid


Donkey in the Meadow is such a great piece of literature with verdant lyricism, sparkling witticism, and erudite criticism that it is on its way to win the Noble Prize in Literature for 2017.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Herefortheride said:


> These are ALL borrows. There are like 500+ bot accounts. This is a massive operation. They are getting multiple full read throughs per minute.


And, the bots probably know to exit the book at the back end.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> And, the bots probably know to exit the book at the back end.


Smart bots.


----------



## H.C.

ebbrown said:


> Smart bots.


Can they teach my customers to stop using pageflip?


----------



## Fieldykins

MCwrites said:


> Donkey in the Meadow is #55 in the top 100 paid





SidK said:


> Donkey in the Meadow is such a great piece of literature with verdant lyricism, sparkling witticism, and erudite criticism that it is on its way to win the Noble Prize in Literature for 2017.


Guys, it's called "*The* Donkey *In* Meadow."

You're giving them too much credit here...


----------



## CozyReads

I see this is an amazing, brazen and deliberate attempt at using parables to show all of us (and Amazon) how messed up Kindle Unlimited has become.

Take The Clever Man (ranked #65 in the store as I write this) paragraphs:



> Some wild goats meandered down from the slopes to the field where the ranch goats were nibbling. The rancher was extremely satisfied. "It would be ideal if you get back home with us," he said to the wild goats, "and i will give you a fabulous supper. "He trusted they would join his group and make it greater.
> 
> That night he gave the wild goats a dining experience, yet to his own particular goats he gave just the scraps. When he opened the animal dwellingplace entryway the following day, the wild goats hurried back to the slope. "What's the matter?" called the agriculturist. "We saw what your own goats had," they said. We'd soon starve on the off chance that we stayed with you."


Here's how I interpret the parable:

Rancher = Amazon (or Jeff himself)
Wild Goats = Authors who have been wide and are considering KU
Rancher's "own goats" = Authors who have stayed loyal to Amazon/KU and are now subsisting on scraps
The moral of the story according to the Wild Goats: going (or staying) all-in with KU means that you will soon starve.

There are probably other ways to interpret this parable, but that's the message I received.


----------



## KelliWolfe

SweetReads said:


> Here's how I interpret the parable:
> 
> Rancher = Amazon (or Jeff himself)
> Wild Goats = Authors who have been wide and are considering KU
> Rancher's "own goats" = Authors who have stayed loyal to Amazon/KU and are now subsisting on scraps
> The moral of the story according to the Wild Goats: going (or staying) all-in with KU means that you will soon starve.
> 
> There are probably other ways to interpret this parable, but that's the message I received.


^^^ <3


----------



## H.C.

KelliWolfe said:


> ^^^ <3


If you actually read all of the stories they connect and tell a great story about Amazon. It's actually pretty clever.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

SweetReads said:


> I see this is an amazing, brazen and deliberate attempt at using parables to show all of us (and Amazon) how messed up Kindle Unlimited has become.
> 
> Take The Clever Man (ranked #65 in the store as I write this) paragraphs:
> 
> Here's how I interpret the parable:
> 
> Rancher = Amazon (or Jeff himself)
> Wild Goats = Authors who have been wide and are considering KU
> Rancher's "own goats" = Authors who have stayed loyal to Amazon/KU and are now subsisting on scraps
> The moral of the story according to the Wild Goats: going (or staying) all-in with KU means that you will soon starve.
> 
> There are probably other ways to interpret this parable, but that's the message I received.


Ha! 

It's one of Aesop's Fables, I know that much.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## Colin

SevenDays said:


> Ha!
> 
> It's one of Aesop's Fables, I know that much.


The Man, the Boy, and the Donkey is also an Aesop's Fable.

Spooky!


----------



## MCwrites

Chelsea Field said:


> Guys, it's called "*The* Donkey *In* Meadow."
> 
> You're giving them too much credit here...


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Told you it was a hacker messing with our heads  . I can only imagine what it's doing to the techs trying to sort out this mess. The whole thing is like a mystery story to be solved by clues left by the perpetrator  . 
Who is going to play Sherlock Holmes in the film version?


----------



## passerby

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Who is going to play Sherlock Holmes in the film version?


I vote for Phoenix.


----------



## Colin

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> The whole thing is like a mystery story to be solved by clues left by the perpetrator .
> *Who is going to play Sherlock Holmes in the film version*?


Gene HACKman?


----------



## Anna Drake

Colin said:


> Gene HACKman?


LOL


----------



## Going Incognito

Chelsea Field said:


> Guys, it's called "*The* Donkey *In* Meadow."
> 
> You're giving them too much credit here...


So it's beastiality erotica in the children's book categories?!?


----------



## KelliWolfe

Someone did mention Tijuana a page or two back...


----------



## Going Incognito

KelliWolfe said:


> Someone did mention Tijuana a page or two back...


Lol!


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

Wow....  this all makes weird sense somehow. 

I really do think it's someone trying to point out to to the "everything's fine" crowd how easily Amazon can be scammed. There are subtle scammers doing this exact same thing right now - who have never been caught.  

We authors are the goats and Amazon is the farmer.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Gentleman Zombie said:


> We authors are the goats and Amazon is the farmer.


I believe it's much more like the monkey and the frog...


----------



## Going Incognito

Someone elsewhere mentioned that The Clever Man's cover was all binary code, adding to the theory this is a finger to Zon. Clicked on it to look closer but got an error page. So clicked on the others- error pages. Seems like round two is about to be pulled down. Anyone betting on a round three?


----------



## amdonehere

You guys think this is fun? Let me tell you what's REALLY fun. I'm in a multi-authors anthology that is about to be released tomorrow. Our pre-order is on the top of the HNR for Anthologies/Short Stories. Look where our book is stuck in between.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/digital-text/7588876011/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_kstore_1_5_last

We've reported those to Amazon multiple times. Zon keeps telling me they're taking this seriously and some appropriate department is looking into this. So far nothing's happening. We can't change categories while the book is in pre-order.

God forbid authors have skulls on their horror book covers during Halloween, but scam books, No Problem!


----------



## 75845

I thought from this was first being mentioned that it was probably a group of direct action activists. They won't care about hurting legitimate authors as its all about the lolz and their kudos rankings about the activisterati.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

I do wonder if this isn't deliberately illustrative so people can see how this works.

If they'd spread this out over 500 books instead of 50-ish and given them all much fewer reads but still the same overall number, they'd collect the money.

Yes, by avoiding the top charts they'd miss out on getting bonuses for the "authors" (which these people were doing earlier this year) but they can just make up that amount by spreading more reads over more fake books.

It's impossible to tell because most of these books are at 9.99 with no keywords and simple titles/blurbs that would otherwise be invisible to users.

Yeah, this is someone making a point or a really incompetent scammer who learned their lesson and will do it better next time.


----------



## KelliWolfe

AlexaKang said:


> You guys think this is fun? Let me tell you what's REALLY fun. I'm in a multi-authors anthology that is about to be released tomorrow. Our pre-order is on the top of the HNR for Anthologies/Short Stories. Look where our book is stuck in between.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/digital-text/7588876011/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_kstore_1_5_last
> 
> We've reported those to Amazon multiple times. Zon keeps telling me they're taking this seriously and some appropriate department is looking into this. So far nothing's happening. We can't change categories while the book is in pre-order.
> 
> God forbid authors have skulls on their horror book covers during Halloween, but scam books, No Problem!


I'm not seeing any scam books in there.


----------



## SandraMiller

I didn't either...but I think Alexa means the Hot New Release list, which is currently dominated by, if not scam books, at least arguably miscategorized ones.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/new-releases/digital-text/7588876011/ref=zg_bs_tab_t_bsnr


----------



## Maia Sepp Ross

Going Incognito said:


> So it's beastiality erotica in the children's book categories?!?


HA!!!


----------



## KelliWolfe

SandraMiller said:


> I didn't either...but I think Alexa means the Hot New Release list, which is currently dominated by, if not scam books, at least arguably miscategorized ones.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/new-releases/digital-text/7588876011/ref=zg_bs_tab_t_bsnr


Ah, I see. Yeah, I really don't think those count as manga. You also have to wonder if the author actually has the rights to those images.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## ......~......

Gentleman Zombie said:


> I really do think it's someone trying to point out to to the "everything's fine" crowd how easily Amazon can be scammed.


We all know there are scammers on Amazon. I'm not sure what their "point" would be here.


----------



## JRTomlin

Mercia McMahon said:


> I thought from this was first being mentioned that it was probably a group of direct action activists. They won't care about hurting legitimate authors as its all about the lolz and their kudos rankings about the activisterati.


This.


----------



## JRTomlin

Gentleman Zombie said:


> Wow.... this all makes weird sense somehow.
> 
> I really do think it's someone trying to point out to to the "everything's fine" crowd how easily Amazon can be scammed. There are subtle scammers doing this exact same thing right now - who have never been caught.
> 
> We authors are the goats and Amazon is the farmer.


Yes, it is totally news that Amazon can be scammed and those of us who have not lost sales *must be punished*.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Atlantisatheart said:


> It's tin foil hat time here, but... was the page flip 'flaw' that discounts pages if you flip back to the beginning designed that way to catch out the scammers who put links in the front of the book to get an honest reader to flick to the back? They then flick back to the front to read the scam book - figure out it's poop and close it...
> 
> Could that be why Amazon were so adamant that we we're not to put out Tables in the back so that honest authors didn't get caught out, and didn't realise that honest readers read in strange and mysterious ways?
> 
> Any one...? I don't like the tin foil hat - it's makes crinkly noises.


What you've suggested makes a lot of sense. It's the cheap-ass way to try to get around having to recode the page-count algorithm to use a bit table, one bit for each KENPC page read. In the end, that's how KU is going to have to work. The bit table would be included in the e-book in ASCII-hex, in a big html comment area. To avoid hacking, the table would be encrypted and loaded with irrelevant spots, so that anyone trying to figure out which bits apply to which pages would be forever lost. Any halfway decent systems analyst could lay something out for Amazon. (And if you're reading this, Jeff, my rates are reasonable.) Whenever the book is closed, the number of flagged pages is counted, and _that_ value is sent up to Amazon--a direct count, and NOT a page number.

One other thing that's going to have to be done: Amazon is going to have to start charging a minimal sum, say $10, for each new title uploaded. This would be a one-time fee per title, and the moneys would go to the salaries of staff hired to quick-eyeball new submissions for validity. I'd have no problem with that.


----------



## JRTomlin

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What you've suggested makes a lot of sense. It's the cheap-ass way to try to get around having to recode the page-count algorithm to use a bit table, one bit for each KENPC page read. In the end, that's how KU is going to have to work. The bit table would be included in the e-book in ASCII-hex, in a big html comment area. To avoid hacking, the table would be encrypted and loaded with irrelevant spots, so that anyone trying to figure out which bits apply to which pages would be forever lost. Any halfway decent systems analyst could lay something out for Amazon. (And if you're reading this, Jeff, my rates are reasonable.) Whenever the book is closed, the number of flagged pages is counted, and _that_ value is sent up to Amazon--a direct count, and NOT a page number.
> 
> One other thing that's going to have to be done: Amazon is going to have to start charging a minimal sum, say $10, for each new title uploaded. This would be a one-time fee per title, and the moneys would go to the salaries of staff hired to quick-eyeball new submissions for validity. I'd have no problem with that.


The problem is that for the real scammers $10 even for every title wouldn't be likely to even make them pause. I would pay it. I have no problem with that, but unfortunately I don't think there is even a chance it would work. Probably the only solution is eyeballs on the submissions, although Amazon deciding to go that route? Well, they've surprised me before. At this point I hope they do. And if $10 per submissions was required to pay for it, that would be fine. I just don't think a fee by itself would do the job.


----------



## anotherpage

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> One other thing that's going to have to be done: Amazon is going to have to start charging a minimal sum, say $10, for each new title uploaded. This would be a one-time fee per title, and the moneys would go to the salaries of staff hired to quick-eyeball new submissions for validity. I'd have no problem with that.


I have a problem with that. As there is no transparency, what's to say that Amazon starts charging for uploads and continues with the KU issues. No, I'm not offering them even more money. Fix the problem, don't create more problems.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

JRTomlin said:


> The problem is that for the real scammers $10 even for every title wouldn't be likely to even make them pause. I would pay it. I have no problem with that, but unfortunately I don't think there is even a chance it would work. Probably the only solution is eyeballs on the submissions, although Amazon deciding to go that route? Well, they've surprised me before. At this point I hope they do. And if $10 per submissions was required to pay for it, that would be fine. I just don't think a fee by itself would do the job.


Agreed. I never intended the fee to be a deterrent, just to cover the cost of the human previewers. Besides checking for obvious scam content, they could also take a quick look at the formatting, and perhaps a few other items of interest as well.

BTW, such a job--previewing Kindle submissions--would have crazy elements of both interest and boredom. Frequent breaks would probably be necessary.

BTW2: Answering the "Are you a human?" question with "no" does not work--the forum software does not have a sense of humor.


----------



## phoenixwaller

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> One other thing that's going to have to be done: Amazon is going to have to start charging a minimal sum, say $10, for each new title uploaded. This would be a one-time fee per title, and the moneys would go to the salaries of staff hired to quick-eyeball new submissions for validity. I'd have no problem with that.


I'm also not a fan of a fee for upload.

Besides there is no way it costs near $10 per title for a cursory check. I'd give it about $0.10 per title tops, and that's getting five eyeballs on each. We don't need people evaluating the content more than scanning for the repeating paragraphs, checking for weirdness about start locations or TOC at the back, maybe in those 3000 KENP books a chunk of lorem ipsum.

Seriously, amazon frigging made the mechanical turk platform, and this is perfect grunt work for it. $0.02 a title is a decent rate there. Or start out at a penny a title, and more experienced checkers who have a good track record get more.


----------



## KelliWolfe

They can take it out of the freakin' delivery charge that no other ebook distributor anywhere charges.


----------



## amdonehere

KelliWolfe said:


> Ah, I see. Yeah, I really don't think those count as manga. You also have to wonder if the author actually has the rights to those images.


You don't see the 2 books that are 35 pages porn/child porn that possibly lead to malware?


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

AlexaKang said:


> You don't see the 2 books that are 35 pages porn/child porn that possibly lead to malware?


I see at least one of them has been yanked.


----------



## Going Incognito

I don't think we should have to pay a fee to pay people to vet the books when Zon is swimming in money, Zon designed a faulty system, Zon should cover the costs of fixing the broken system they designed. This isn't the authors fault. Like they can't afford to pay. They don't want to pay. They have no more interest in keeping scammers from scamming than they do in keeping counterfeit goods from being sold. As long as they profit from it and it's not rubbed in their face or costing them too much, they don't care.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Going Incognito said:


> I don't think we should have to pay a fee to pay people to vet the books when Zon is swimming in money, Zon designed a faulty system, Zon should cover the costs of fixing the broken system they designed. This isn't the authors fault. Like they can't afford to pay. They don't want to pay. They have no more interest in keeping scammers from scamming than they do in keeping counterfeit goods from being sold. As long as they profit from it and it's not rubbed in their face or costing them too much, they don't care.


Bingo!


----------



## johnpirillo

I've been horribly close to flat in reads for going on two months into three now.  i began some time back putting the tocs at the end of my stories to allow readers to get more of the story in to help them buy. 


Are you guys saying that Amazon is killing my reads because the toc is in the back and not the front? Toc, being the table of contents. I thought it didn't matter where it was.


Is anyone else having extremely low reads that has recently put their tocs in the back of their stories?


Thanks, John.


----------



## johnpirillo

Amazon already makes millions of dollars from us, why would we need to pay them to do a job they should be doing from the beginning? How much would it cost them to hire proofreaders to spot check all the books being uploaded? They could hire poor college students or outsource it like most corps do and get it done for next to nothing. It wouldn't even make a dent in their bank account.


----------



## Crystal_

I don't really care who pays to check titles. I just want humans checking them.


----------



## TellNotShow

CozyReads said:


> I see this is an amazing, brazen and deliberate attempt at using parables to show all of us (and Amazon) how messed up Kindle Unlimited has become.
> 
> Take The Clever Man (ranked #65 in the store as I write this) paragraphs:
> 
> Here's how I interpret the parable:
> 
> Quote
> Some wild goats meandered down from the slopes to the field where the ranch goats were nibbling. The rancher was extremely satisfied. "It would be ideal if you get back home with us," he said to the wild goats, "and i will give you a fabulous supper. "He trusted they would join his group and make it greater.
> 
> That night he gave the wild goats a dining experience, yet to his own particular goats he gave just the scraps. When he opened the animal dwellingplace entryway the following day, the wild goats hurried back to the slope. "What's the matter?" called the agriculturist. "We saw what your own goats had," they said. We'd soon starve on the off chance that we stayed with you."
> 
> Rancher = Amazon (or Jeff himself)
> Wild Goats = Authors who have been wide and are considering KU
> Rancher's "own goats" = Authors who have stayed loyal to Amazon/KU and are now subsisting on scraps
> The moral of the story according to the Wild Goats: going (or staying) all-in with KU means that you will soon starve.
> 
> There are probably other ways to interpret this parable, but that's the message I received.


This is genius, but I think there should have been a third paragraph. (I know, right, a three paragraph book, a bit much!)

The third paragraph is where the farmer keeps poisoning the fields, because even though his goats then die, he's happy to sell poisoned goatmeat, because even though people who enjoy goatmeat then die, he's not just a goatfarmer, he sells lots of other products too, and it makes no difference to him if the whole world goes off goatmeat because it's mostly poisoned now. The goats were only there to bring the farmer customers for everything else, and none of it matters anymore, because the farmer now makes all his own rules, is accountable to no one because he's impossible to audit, he pays no tax but spends the money he makes buying up all the other farms (and much of the wilderness) instead, and already he weighs 900 pounds and can throw his weight around however he wants to and get away with it.


----------



## dragontucker

Is it normal for the KU Graph to be in "triangles?" Like....it's a spike, no reads, spike, no reads etc. That is the pattern of my KU graph. Kinda annoying to see after a while. It just doesn't seem right. But....I guess it could be.


----------



## SomeoneElse

dragontucker said:


> Is it normal for the KU Graph to be in "triangles?" Like....it's a spike, no reads, spike, no reads etc. That is the pattern of my KU graph. Kinda annoying to see after a while. It just doesn't seem right. But....I guess it could be.


It depends on the size of your spikes. Low volume sellers tend to have graphs that look like that because they might have one book read on Tuesday, nothing on Wednesday, and another read on Thursday. If your spikes are several thousand pages, then 0 pages, that sounds a bit off, but if your spikes are only a few hundred pages, that sounds normal.


----------



## Jericho

Bringing the topic back to the page read issue for a moment--

Just curious -- If I had video evidence that the "1 page read" was a real issue would Amazon be interested in seeing it? Or would others?

And if so would it do anything?


----------



## Anarchist




----------



## JRTomlin

Crystal_ said:


> I don't really care who pays to check titles. I just want humans checking them.


Agree. I don't think we should really have to but if that was what it took, it would be worth it.


----------



## 77071

I think it's a bad idea to suggest *we* pay for Amazon to do *their* job. Honestly more on the principle than the actual amount they might charge per title / author.

If they want the store to go down in flames, well, I'm not happy about it. A lot of us are suffering. (Yes, worst month in years here. No comments from the peanut gallery about how it's my fault and I'm not releasing fast enough, thanks. I'm releasing a book a month as usual, thanks.)

Something's broken, but why should I volunteer to pay for them to fix it? *They still haven't even admitted anything's wrong.* Should I offer to bend over, too?

I did not think Amazon could earn my anger so quickly, my distrust so thoroughly...or my disgust, either. Amazon is supposedly the best at algorithms, outside of Google. And they can't stop this kind of...stuff?

Yeah, right. I guess there's something newer and shinier than actually making the store work properly. Maybe launching a rocket. Yep. Maybe rolling out a new music subscription. There's always something shinier!!!

Fuck that.


----------



## LadyStarlight

HSh said:


> I think it's a bad idea to suggest *we* pay for Amazon to do *their* job. Honestly more on the principle than the actual amount they might charge per title / author.
> 
> If they want the store to go down in flames, well, I'm not happy about it. A lot of us are suffering. (Yes, worst month in years here. No comments from the peanut gallery about how it's my fault and I'm not releasing fast enough, thanks. I'm releasing a book a month as usual, thanks.)
> 
> Something's broken, but why should I volunteer to pay for them to fix it? *They still haven't even admitted anything's wrong.* Should I offer to bend over, too?
> 
> I did not think Amazon could earn my anger so quickly, my distrust so thoroughly...or my disgust, either. Amazon is supposedly the best at algorithms, outside of Google. And they can't stop this kind of...stuff?
> 
> Yeah, right. I guess there's something newer and shinier than actually making the store work properly. Maybe launching a rocket. Yep. Maybe rolling out a new music subscription. There's always something shinier!!!
> 
> [expletive] that.


Thank you so much. I couldn't have expressed my anger more...eloquently.


----------



## Richardcrasta

They can take the fee out of the 35% I lose in every Third World country where I get a 35% royalty rate instead of 70% for not being in KDP select.

What I've not been able to gather from this thread is whether, as a result of this mess, non-KDP writers are also losing sales (i.e., actual sales not appearing on their reports). I seem to be.


----------



## SomeoneElse

Richardcrasta said:


> They can take the fee out of the 35% I lose in every Third World country where I get a 35% royalty rate instead of 70% for not being in KDP select.
> 
> What I've not been able to gather from this thread is whether, as a result of this mess, non-KDP writers are also losing sales (i.e., actual sales not appearing on their reports). I seem to be.


I don't recall anyone in this thread talking about a sales drop. There was a thread maybe a week ago where someone mentioned it, and there's been discussion around the US election as a possible cause for slow sales.

But, as has been mentioned in this thread, you can never know for sure. Amazon gives you a number. You have no means to verify the number. However, Amazon's actions have suggested there is an underlying problem with reads, and various posters have tested and found reads going unrecorded. As far as I know, there is no such evidence that there is a problem with number of sales.


----------



## 75814

LSMay said:


> I don't recall anyone in this thread talking about a sales drop. There was a thread maybe a week ago where someone mentioned it, and there's been discussion around the US election as a possible cause for slow sales.


I had a sales drop. Reads were fairly consistent for me, but sales were really down. Especially surprising considering I pushed a big ad campaign on Facebook and Amazon for a box set on a Countdown deal.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Atlantisatheart said:


> Good point - I'll get my son to do that now, because computers are not my friend. Thanks.


I've tried to teach the spouse how to do a screen cap, but she just takes a digital pic with her camera and later plugs the memory chip into the slot on the side of the laptop.

Hey, it works, right?


----------



## Lady Vine

Richardcrasta said:


> They can take the fee out of the 35% I lose in every Third World country where I get a 35% royalty rate instead of 70% for not being in KDP select.
> 
> What I've not been able to gather from this thread is whether, as a result of this mess, non-KDP writers are also losing sales (i.e., actual sales not appearing on their reports). I seem to be.


You're losing it on PLENTY of first world countries too, my friend.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

phoenixwaller said:


> I'm also not a fan of a fee for upload.
> 
> Besides there is no way it costs near $10 per title for a cursory check. I'd give it about $0.10 per title tops, and that's getting five eyeballs on each. We don't need people evaluating the content more than scanning for the repeating paragraphs, checking for weirdness about start locations or TOC at the back, maybe in those 3000 KENP books a chunk of lorem ipsum.


Also, $10 is unaffordable for some of us. I'm not sure that some of my children's books would even make that money back


----------



## RedAlert

FWIW.  I ordered some books from Amazon, and for the first time ever, Amazon has not removed money from my bank.  Usually, it's almost instantaneous.  It's been 3 days.  

I know that their tracking system is really not accurate, but some sort of psychological comfort given to participants, but this is weird.  I expect that sometime this week, the money will transfer away, but this is the first time ever that they started the "clock" without being paid first.

I have in the past received duplicate orders, which I've had to refuse at the warehouse, so to speak.  So, it's not like they don't make mistakes.  But, this is unusual for Amazon.  We are an effective team, you know, where I order stuff and they take the money and ship.  But, not this week.

If it were just other stuff, not books, I would still think it was weird, but because it's actually books, it makes me wonder even more.


----------



## tresero

RedAlert said:


> FWIW. I ordered some books from Amazon, and for the first time ever, Amazon has not removed money from my bank. Usually, it's almost instantaneous. It's been 3 days.
> 
> I know that their tracking system is really not accurate, but some sort of psychological comfort given to participants, but this is weird. I expect that sometime this week, the money will transfer away, but this is the first time ever that they started the "clock" without being paid first.
> 
> I have in the past received duplicate orders, which I've had to refuse at the warehouse, so to speak. So, it's not like they don't make mistakes. But, this is unusual for Amazon. We are an effective team, you know, where I order stuff and they take the money and ship. But, not this week.
> 
> If it were just other stuff, not books, I would still think it was weird, but because it's actually books, it makes me wonder even more.


You aren't charged until they ship. Could that be the issue?


----------



## unkownwriter

Going Incognito said:


> I don't think we should have to pay a fee to pay people to vet the books when Zon is swimming in money, Zon designed a faulty system, Zon should cover the costs of fixing the broken system they designed. This isn't the authors fault. Like they can't afford to pay. They don't want to pay. They have no more interest in keeping scammers from scamming than they do in keeping counterfeit goods from being sold. As long as they profit from it and it's not rubbed in their face or costing them too much, they don't care.


Yes, this is Amazon's fault, they need to fix it. They make enough from their cut of our sales, plus whatever that delivery fee is for, to more than pay for human eyes to monitor the KU applicants. They don't have to look at the whole store, just stuff to be enrolled in KU. Like someone mentioned, they even have their own employment services place, that turk something, to hire it out cheap.

The thing is, I believe they don't want to fix anything. I think they'd be perfectly happy to just keep rolling along, because no matter how many of us take our books out of KU, there's a dozen newbies who don't know any better coming along every day to take our place. Half of them don't even have sense enough to read what the enrollment terms even mean and they'd never know they were being cheated. If they did figure it out, then there's another dozen or two ready to take their place. Win win for Amazon.

Those who haven't been affected, I'm happy for you. Makes your lives easier. You're hoping it never does hit you, or that the next screw up doesn't, right? Good luck with that. But please be courteous enough to let those of us who have been hit by this talk about it and try to get some consolation from our fellows, because we sure ain't getting no sympathy from any of you.


----------



## Colin

she-la-ti-da said:


> Those who haven't been affected, I'm happy for you. Makes your lives easier. You're hoping it never does hit you, or that the next screw up doesn't, right? Good luck with that. But please be courteous enough to let those of us who have been hit by this talk about it and try to get some consolation from our fellows, because we sure ain't getting no sympathy from any of you.


Like.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

she-la-ti-da said:


> Those who haven't been affected, I'm happy for you. Makes your lives easier. You're hoping it never does hit you, or that the next screw up doesn't, right? Good luck with that. But please be courteous enough to let those of us who have been hit by this talk about it and try to get some consolation from our fellows, because we sure ain't getting no sympathy from any of you.


That's a bit harsh. Innumerable people in this thread have expressed sympathy and understanding. Heaven knows, we all appreciate how vulnerable we are to Amazon glitches, and even if we haven't been affected this time, it could be our turn next time, as you so rightly point out. I hope this gets fixed for you, and soon, and I hope everyone will keep this thread running with any new information that comes to light.


----------



## SparkWrite

Jericho said:


> Bringing the topic back to the page read issue for a moment--
> 
> Just curious -- If I had video evidence that the "1 page read" was a real issue would Amazon be interested in seeing it? Or would others?
> 
> And if so would it do anything?


Jericho, yes! I had an ECR rep call me a few weeks back who wanted to be in contact with authors who had concrete evidence of the issue with page filp not counting pages read. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it to him.


----------



## 77071

LSMay said:


> I don't recall anyone in this thread talking about a sales drop.


That is what I'm talking about when I said my earnings are lowest in years.

I don't know if it's an algorithm thing or something else, but it's definitely different here. (And as I've said, my release rate & other details are the same.)


----------



## Jericho

SparkWrite said:


> Jericho, yes! I had an ECR rep call me a few weeks back who wanted to be in contact with authors who had concrete evidence of the issue with page filp not counting pages read. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it to him.


Sent.


----------



## Anarchist

she-la-ti-da said:


> But please be courteous enough to let those of us who have been hit by this talk about it and try to get some consolation from our fellows, because we sure ain't getting no sympathy from any of you.


I'll paraphrase what this sounds like to me:

"_If you can't say something that will make me feel better, please don't say anything at all_."


----------



## Colin

Anarchist said:


> I'll paraphrase what this sounds like to me:
> 
> "_If you can't say something that will make me feel better, please don't say anything at all_."


Careful, Anarchist, or we'll call in Karma Police!


----------



## Anarchist

Colin said:


> Careful, Anarchist, or we'll call in Karma Police!


Okay, that made me laugh.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

FWIW.
Every couple of days I've been sending a polite email to KDP explaining that a reader has downloaded my book and read it while online, and ending the email with: It is now over 240 hours ago and according to your estimation the page reads should go through to my dashboard within 24 - 48 hours. Could you let me know when you think they will appear on my dashboard?

I change the subject heading each time.

I don't even get the usual canned reply


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> FWIW.
> Every couple of days I've been sending a polite email to KDP explaining that a reader has downloaded my book and read it while online, and ending the email with: It is now over 240 hours ago and according to your estimation the page reads should go through to my dashboard within 24 - 48 hours. Could you let me know when you think they will appear on my dashboard?
> 
> I change the subject heading each time.
> 
> I don't even get the usual canned reply


I'd send it again and cc good ol' Jeff. It couldn't hurt.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> FWIW.
> Every couple of days I've been sending a polite email to KDP explaining that a reader has downloaded my book and read it while online, and ending the email with: It is now over 240 hours ago and according to your estimation the page reads should go through to my dashboard within 24 - 48 hours. Could you let me know when you think they will appear on my dashboard?
> 
> I change the subject heading each time.
> 
> I don't even get the usual canned reply


Has anyone considered the possibility that if you know the person reading your book, and point that out to Amazon, it looks fraudulent so that is actually activity that would trip their fraud detectors?


----------



## David VanDyke

CozyReads said:


> It wouldn't work properly. Once you buy a book, even if you delete it from your content, the borrow/pages wouldn't register on your account.


I don't believe that's true. I borrowed a book of my own for testing purposes, and had to delete the purchased copy in order to do it. I was able to delete the purchased copy, borrow the book, read the book, and successfully check pages read and registered.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Has anyone considered the possibility that if you know the person reading your book, and point that out to Amazon, it looks fraudulent so that is actually activity that would trip their fraud detectors?


I actually said that a reader on a forum had downloaded it. Even if it was a friend/relative that had downloaded/bought it, how would that be fraudulent? Surely your friends are allowed to buy your books.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

SevenDays said:


> I'd send it again and cc good ol' Jeff. It couldn't hurt.


Good idea. I might also mention that it's my fifth email with no reply.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> FWIW.
> Every couple of days I've been sending a polite email to KDP explaining that a reader has downloaded my book and read it while online, and ending the email with: It is now over 240 hours ago and according to your estimation the page reads should go through to my dashboard within 24 - 48 hours. Could you let me know when you think they will appear on my dashboard?
> 
> I change the subject heading each time.
> 
> I don't even get the usual canned reply


I hope your water-on-a-stone drip-drip-drip method bears fruit. Perhaps it will.

After a time, I would have a hard time keeping the e-mails polite. I would e-mail Amazon myself about all this, but my sales are still statistically low enough to suffer extended droughts _naturally_, even though what I'm seeing is just bizarre, and coincides with others' September fall and October drought. It's quite discouraging. Based on my graphs and sales alone, the suggestion of shenanigans (accidental or deliberate) is there, but the proof is minimal. And, I certainly can't write in to complain about others' sales cliffs.

I _have_, for the time being, taken my long title out of the automatic KU renewal. That would occur in December.


----------



## David VanDyke

AlexaKang said:


> This is really terrible. Those scam books are taking up almost 40 slots. But they aren't in KU and they're selling at retail price of $9.99. How can this be? What are they doing to get that many real sales?


Money laundering for a 30% premium, especially using stolen credit cards. Any way to turn illegitimate digital cash into "clean" deposits is a target.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I actually said that a reader on a forum had downloaded it. Even if it was a friend/relative that had downloaded/bought it, how would that be fraudulent? Surely your friends are allowed to buy your books.


Except we have no idea how it was read. Was it fast? Did they flip through pages? Read the pages? Hop to page 212 (or whatever it was). My guess would be that a lot of these test methods are exactly what Amazon is looking for in their fraud detector these days.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Except we have no idea how it was read. Was it fast? Did they flip through pages? Read the pages? Hop to page 212 (or whatever it was). My guess would be that a lot of these test methods are exactly what Amazon is looking for in their fraud detector these days.


I'm wondering if we're giving Amazon too much credit for cleverness. Any programming staff that would count as "pages read" the page number on which you happen to be sitting at the time you close the book, would not be a staff to which I'd offer much credibility. I think any type of fraud detection logic that's now included in the Kindle reading software is boneheadedly simple and poleaxe subtle.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Except we have no idea how it was read. Was it fast? Did they flip through pages? Read the pages? Hop to page 212 (or whatever it was). My guess would be that a lot of these test methods are exactly what Amazon is looking for in their fraud detector these days.


It's a children's book of only 44 pages. It was read through twice and the illustrations commented on (to me - not reviewed). The reader was online when it was read. It was done as a 'normal' reader would read it.

If you'd like to try it with a Leon Chameleon book of 100 pages you are welcome . They haven't had any page reads for a while.


----------



## David VanDyke

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> 3. One truly troubling aspect is the possibility that _orders_ and _sales_ are somehow affected. Notjohn, a long-time poster over on the KDP forums, reports that his paperback (CreateSpace) sales are overtaking his e-book sales, a truly bizarre result. How a straight sale could be affected by KU software I have no idea. We could be seeing a whole separate problem here. I hope not, but I'm at the point where I, myself, have become suspicious of the accuracy of the Orders graph.


Notjohn is a well-known troll over at the KDP forums and I wouldn't trust what s/he says, based on some truly bizarre ideas s/he promulgates, and the constancy of his/her diatribes against well-established promotion methods such as permafree. S/he seems to constantly be putting out bad advice in hopes of discouraging or derailing the newbies that often go there first. I wouldn't be surprised if that report is a complete fabrication.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

David VanDyke said:


> Notjohn is a well-known troll over at the KDP forums and I wouldn't trust what s/he says, based on some truly bizarre ideas s/he promulgates, and the constancy of his/her diatribes against well-established promotion methods such as permafree. S/he seems to constantly be putting out bad advice in hopes of discouraging or derailing the newbies that often go there first. I wouldn't be surprised if that report is a complete fabrication.


Notjohn is opinionated and likes to tout his services and wares every chance he gets (and if it works for him, so what?). And, sometimes I think he posts in a forum just to keep his presence in the forefront. He does, however, offer occasional good information and advice; a person just needs to discern that from the less-good advice. Nevertheless, I don't think he or she has fallen to the level of Troll just yet.

Regarding the e-sales vs. CreateSpace sales report: You could be right. But, what's Notjohn's benefit in making up such a report? Just for the notoriety? Possible, I guess, but I think unlikely.

As far as posts and reports and knowing anything goes, I'm just sitting at a monitor, keying messages and occasionally getting replies. See, there's no real universe out there, and you all don't really exist. It's all just a computer satisfying my imaginings.


----------



## Lydniz

Actually, notjohn is also a KBoards poster, so you might want to bear that in mind when you start bandying descriptions about.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Just read a Look Inside where it says 'Make sure you turn to the last page where we have a free gift waiting for you!! '
Is this allowed? I can't see a link to the last page.


----------



## Jericho

dragontucker said:


> Is it normal for the KU Graph to be in "triangles?" Like....it's a spike, no reads, spike, no reads etc. That is the pattern of my KU graph. Kinda annoying to see after a while. It just doesn't seem right. But....I guess it could be.


My graphs look like shark teeth!


----------



## PhoenixS

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Just read a Look Inside where it says 'Make sure you turn to the last page where we have a free gift waiting for you!! '
> Is this allowed?


Not allowed.

Disruptive links and promises of gifts or rewards are never allowed.
https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A3CFOBV9O6PLD7

If the formatting of a book results in a poor experience or genuine reader confusion, or is designed to unnaturally inflate sales or pages read, we will take action to remove titles and protect readers. This also includes disruptive or unnecessary enticement to click on elements within TOCs. Continued addition of these types of elements in your titles could affect your account status, up to and including termination.
https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A1MMQ0JHRBEINX#links


----------



## David VanDyke

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Just read a Look Inside where it says 'Make sure you turn to the last page where we have a free gift waiting for you!! '
> Is this allowed? I can't see a link to the last page.


If it's a scammer, I'd report it. If it's a legit author, perhaps clue them in.


----------



## Gator

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> FWIW.
> Every couple of days I've been sending a polite email to KDP explaining that a reader has downloaded my book and read it while online, and ending the email with: It is now over 240 hours ago and according to your estimation the page reads should go through to my dashboard within 24 - 48 hours. Could you let me know when you think they will appear on my dashboard?
> 
> I change the subject heading each time.
> 
> I don't even get the usual canned reply


Did you give the reader's device info (Kindle serial number and firmware version), KU account number, or even his Amazon login email address so IT troubleshooters can try to track it down?

If not, your email messages are the equivalent of "One of your four million customers sent you a letter in the mail. I don't know who, but I know _*when*_, and you should have received it by now. Please find that letter and give me credit for it."


----------



## KelliWolfe

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Except we have no idea how it was read. Was it fast? Did they flip through pages? Read the pages? Hop to page 212 (or whatever it was). My guess would be that a lot of these test methods are exactly what Amazon is looking for in their fraud detector these days.


Except we still have zero indication that Amazon has any ability to track these activities on a per-page basis. Exactly the opposite, in fact.

It's far more likely given what we know (or think we know) that their fraud detection system is based on the number of books borrowed by a subscriber in a given period, total number of pages read in a given period, traffic from IP addresses, patterns in book borrowing across subscriber accounts, etc. It would be similar to the systems in place to identify click fraud in online advertising.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

It's almost certainly based on how many books a reader's device reports they've opened in a day.


----------



## Ava Glass

After everything, Amazon _still_ wants to fully automate All-Star bonuses. 

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/457456



> KEY RESPONSIBILITIES
> · Own the KDP Select All-Stars bonus program from end to end including owning building and launching a fully automated solution for the All-Stars bonus program.


BTW, this job also involves the KDP Select Global Fund



> · Leverage data and deep analysis to support key product and business decisions including the KDP Select Global Fund monthly payout.
> 
> · Proactively anticipate and re-actively address author questions about the All-Stars bonus program and KDP Select Global Fund.
> 
> · Present written business recommendations and Working Backwards documents to help shape the Indie Publishing product roadmap.
> 
> · Own building, launching and driving usage of self-service features that help indie authors succeed with KDP Select.


----------



## KelliWolfe

It seems insane that they would dump that much money into a system to figure out the Global Fund rather than just picking a number between $0.0045 and $0.0050 per page and sticking with it so we wouldn't have to play guessing games every month. They'll spend millions designing, building, and maintaining the software.

Hell, just give Jeff a Magic 8-Ball and have him ask it questions about whether to raise or lower the payout. It would be cheaper and given the way Amazon has been going lately it would probably be a lot more accurate.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## LadyStarlight

Ava Glass said:


> After everything, Amazon _still_ wants to fully automate All-Star bonuses.
> 
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/457456
> 
> BTW, this job also involves the KDP Select Global Fund


I just....can't......


----------



## TellNotShow

PhoenixS said:


> If the formatting of a book ... is designed to unnaturally inflate sales or pages read, we will take action to remove titles and protect readers. This also includes disruptive or unnecessary enticement to click on elements within TOCs. Continued addition of these types of elements in your titles could affect your account status, up to and including termination.


And yet, if we Look Inside all the self-pubbed books in Amazon's Top 100, particularly those with shirtless men on the covers, and more particularly those by authors who are very regularly in the Top 100, we see that many of them contain at least one, and often two or three, of the author's other books, inflating the page counts from, say, 80 pages to 320, or from 350 pages to 700. 
Often, there will be a note that says something like, "Because I LOVE all you wonderful readers so much, for a limited time, I've included Book One, Book Two, and Book Three for FREE. And they're right after Book Four, and they ALL have a new EPILOGUE!"
(Not all authors include the new epilogues, some just put one or two of their old books then a "What I'm Working On Now!" chapter/link.

I'm all for authors being paid fairly, and maybe that's how these particular authors think they're making it fair. Certainly Amazon's not being fair. It's hard to argue that they don't know some people's pages aren't being registered - let's face it, they designed the systems, they know they don't work, and it's not that complicated to build a system that does work. They just didn't want to, and still don't. Because AMAZON are getting paid, 10 bucks a month per reader - why would they want to pay out any more than they can get away with paying? 
Paying what's owed to authors decreases Amazon's net income. 
Given the way they snipe a few cents for delivery fees even though no other retailer does, and given that only a tiny percentage of those deliveries actually cost Amazon anything because most people use their own wi-fi anyway, it's pretty obvious Amazon utilise whatever tricks they can to increase their own bottom line by taking whatever they can get away with off their suppliers. 
("What is it about 70% royalties YOU don't understand?")
Those delivery fees add up to MILLIONS of dollars.
As will all these page reads that aren't registering.
And if anyone feels the need to tell me it makes no difference to Amazon, as the great benevolent completely honest wondercompany pays us from a fixed pool, please PM me, I have bridges in all the world's major cities I'll do you a good deal on. You DO wanna own your own bridges, right?

And yes, before anyone asks, I have reported several of those books, some of them multiple times, and nothing ever changes. So maybe we should all be adding a few of our older books to our KU books, with a new single paragraph epilogue at the end of each one, as this seems to be allowed. It won't stop Amazon paying out half a cent instead of the few dollars they owe us when some people read our books, but it would even things up a little.
If only we could do this AND still live with ourselves.


----------



## 555aaa

Ava Glass said:


> After everything, Amazon _still_ wants to fully automate All-Star bonuses.
> 
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/457456
> 
> BTW, this job also involves the KDP Select Global Fund


Read thru it. Depressing to read that every problem has, in Amazon's mind, an algorithmic solution which will be overseen by a junior manager.


----------



## Jericho

They can claim, "We've looked at the data and can't find a systematic issue affecting your results." Video proof says otherwise. 

While many of you are distracted by the scammers who are scamming Amazon. Never forget, scammers aren't keeping track of your "page reads" and they don't determine what to "pay you" for your hard work. 

Lose sight of what's important, or fall under the influence of those who seek to misguide you, an acknowledgement of the issues, or a solution to redress your grievances will continue to evade you.


----------



## jaehaerys

I have 3 books in KU and generated 1 sale on book 1 since late September when I released that first book. I have no page reads, but I do have 1 positive review.

Not sure what any of that means, but I do have a random thought to share...

There are books being read that are not having their pages counted.
Is the opposite also happening just as often? Meaning, are there also many books out there (aside from the scammers) that are not selling, but Amazon is attributing page reads to them anyway?

Given the fogginess of stats available to any individual author, is everyone being sold a bill of goods here for the purposes of stable growth in selling KU memberships?

I feel for all the indies out there feeling forced to put up with Amazon's opaque model - no way of knowing what's real and what isn't. What's that line in JFK when one of Kevin Costner's employees feels he and his staff have gone too far down the rabbit hole? 

Something like:
"How do you know who your Daddy is? Because your Mama told you so."

Indeed, this seems to be Amazon's stance.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Gator said:


> Did you give the reader's device info (Kindle serial number and firmware version), KU account number, or even his Amazon login email address so IT troubleshooters can try to track it down?
> 
> If not, your email messages are the equivalent of "One of your four million customers sent you a letter in the mail. I don't know who, but I know _*when*_, and you should have received it by now. Please find that letter and give me credit for it."


I told them it was a Kindle Browser. If they are going to bother investigating they should ask if I have the other details, which I'm sure I can get. When I send my next email I will ask if they require those details in order to investigate if they have a problem 

ETA I have send a further email also asking if they require more details.


----------



## Jericho

Regardless of the Zon's stance, two things are certain: 1. The "page read" issue is real and it's not only a "1 page read" result, there is a variance. 2. "Page flip" as the singular cause of this issue is patently misleading and provably inconsistent with existing evidence. (There are other methods that will yield this result.)  

The "tests" by many authors with similar results points to this as being more than simply anecdotal evidence (video proof diminishes that claim as well), absent the data not provided to authors from the Zon officially.


----------



## RedAlert

TellNotShow said:


> And yet, if we Look Inside all the self-pubbed books in Amazon's Top 100, particularly those with shirtless men on the covers, and more particularly those by authors who are very regularly in the Top 100, we see that many of them contain at least one, and often two or three, of the author's other books, inflating the page counts from, say, 80 pages to 320, or from 350 pages to 700.
> Often, there will be a note that says something like, "Because I LOVE all you wonderful readers so much, for a limited time, I've included Book One, Book Two, and Book Three for FREE. And they're right after Book Four, and they ALL have a new EPILOGUE!"
> (Not all authors include the new epilogues, some just put one or two of their old books then a "What I'm Working On Now!" chapter/link.
> 
> I'm all for authors being paid fairly, and maybe that's how these particular authors think they're making it fair. Certainly Amazon's not being fair. It's hard to argue that they don't know some people's pages aren't being registered - let's face it, they designed the systems, they know they don't work, and it's not that complicated to build a system that does work. They just didn't want to, and still don't. Because AMAZON are getting paid, 10 bucks a month per reader - why would they want to pay out any more than they can get away with paying?
> Paying what's owed to authors decreases Amazon's net income.
> Given the way they snipe a few cents for delivery fees even though no other retailer does, and given that only a tiny percentage of those deliveries actually cost Amazon anything because most people use their own wi-fi anyway, it's pretty obvious Amazon utilise whatever tricks they can to increase their own bottom line by taking whatever they can get away with off their suppliers.
> ("What is it about 70% royalties YOU don't understand?")
> Those delivery fees add up to MILLIONS of dollars.
> As will all these page reads that aren't registering.
> And if anyone feels the need to tell me it makes no difference to Amazon, as the great benevolent completely honest wondercompany pays us from a fixed pool, please PM me, I have bridges in all the world's major cities I'll do you a good deal on. You DO wanna own your own bridges, right?
> 
> And yes, before anyone asks, I have reported several of those books, some of them multiple times, and nothing ever changes. So maybe we should all be adding a few of our older books to our KU books, with a new single paragraph epilogue at the end of each one, as this seems to be allowed. It won't stop Amazon paying out half a cent instead of the few dollars they owe us when some people read our books, but it would even things up a little.
> If only we could do this AND still live with ourselves.


I read your post several times. What is it that those authors you have reported have done wrong? I am still soaking up "how to do things." It seems like you are complaining that certain authors have added whole books(?) at the end of a book? Or, "here are my other books?" Are you saying that this is a way around whatever restrictions there are on bundles? Because, to me, if an author wants to give away a book or two by including them in a book, it's their business. Is this against TOS?
Also, however an author speaks to his/her readers is also personal business practice.

I am asking because I am honestly confused. You stated that you have reported such authors. For what, again? Even trad pubbed books have "here are my other books" pages. How many times have noobies been advised to put previews in the back of a book? I've seen trad pubbed books with preview chapters in the back.

This isn't what I plan to do, but other authors have the right to style their work in the way they think they can market. I would consider such a concoction of books to be a weird bundle of sorts. What's wrong with that?

I've seen trad pubbed books with pages of even different authors' books in the back. That's part of the publishing house's idea of marketing. I expect one day to see mention of someone else's book in the back of an indie book, without a review to make it against TOS. Would that also be wrong?

I have noticed that the indie world wants to model itself after trad pub, whereas the beauty of being indie is the freedom to be innovative. But, learning how to market is really hard, and emulation is not a bad start, I guess.


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## Amanda M. Lee

RedAlert said:


> I read your post several times. What is it that those authors you have reported have done wrong? I am still soaking up "how to do things." It seems like you are complaining that certain authors have added whole books(?) at the end of a book? Or, "here are my other books?" Are you saying that this is a way around whatever restrictions there are on bundles? Because, to me, if an author wants to give away a book or two by including them in a book, it's their business. Is this against TOS?
> Also, however an author speaks to his/her readers is also personal business practice.
> 
> I am asking because I am honestly confused. You stated that you have reported such authors. For what, again? Even trad pubbed books have "here are my other books" pages. How many times have noobies been advised to put previews in the back of a book? I've seen trad pubbed books with preview chapters in the back.
> 
> This isn't what I plan to do, but other authors have the right to style their work in the way they think they can market. I would consider such a concoction of books to be a weird bundle of sorts. What's wrong with that?
> 
> I've seen trad pubbed books with pages of even different authors' books in the back. That's part of the publishing house's idea of marketing. I expect one day to see mention of someone else's book in the back of an indie book, without a review to make it against TOS. Would that also be wrong?
> 
> I have noticed that the indie world wants to model itself after trad pub, whereas the beauty of being indie is the freedom to be innovative. But, learning how to market is really hard, and emulation is not a bad start, I guess.


There is a subset of authors out there bundling in a certain manner to pad KENPC. It's hurting legitimate bundlers. I think it will be a moot point eventually. I look for Amazon to ban bundles from KU before it's all said and done. We're not quite there yet, though.
What's essentially happening is that an author is taking eight books (it's not always that number but I'm picking one number to make it easier). They take those eight books and put one on the cover. Then they offer the rest for free as "bonus" books. Then they change the configuration and put a different cover on it. It's the same content, just rearranged. They'd do this eight times to get as close to the KENPC limit as possible.
A true bundle is meant as a way to give customers value for their purchase. Three books for a couple of bucks off to encourage people to jump into a series late. What's happening here is that people don't trust their work to stand on its own so they're trying to trick readers into going through the same content multiple times and inflating the KENPC to do it. It's a way of abusing the system.
What's going to happen is that Amazon is going to lower the total KENPC a book can claim (my guess is to 1,000 pages) and then they're going to ban books that aren't single titles. Since you can read as much as you want in KU, there really is no reason to have bundles in it and Amazon will have no choice due to all the fraud. Then we'll see the legitimate bundlers caught up in the problem, there will be a lot of handwringing and crying, people will burn Amazon in effigy, etc.
It's really too bad people can't be trusted to do the right thing, but Amazon will come through with a chainsaw to fix it because there will always be users and abusers out there. When do I think this will occur? Probably at least six months. It depends on how brazen people get. I guess we'll have to wait and see.


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## PhoenixS

RedAlert said:


> I read your post several times. What is it that those authors you have reported have done wrong? I am still soaking up "how to do things." It seems like you are complaining that certain authors have added whole books(?) at the end of a book? Or, "here are my other books?" Are you saying that this is a way around whatever restrictions there are on bundles? Because, to me, if an author wants to give away a book or two by including them in a book, it's their business. Is this against TOS?
> Also, however an author speaks to his/her readers is also personal business practice.


By making bonus content available in the form of complete books, authors are padding their books out for the express purpose of getting more page reads. Some authors are including the same few bonus books at the end of every one of their titles. The bonus content is not clearly stated on the covers or in the description. That often means that readers purchasing, say a Book 4 of a series, have usually (not always, I'm generalizing here) already read Books 1-3. By the author including Books 1 through 3 after Book 4 in the file and maybe adding a bonus Epilogue for Book 4 AFTER Books 1-3, that forces readers who've already read Books 1-3 to skip through all those hundreds of lovely pages in order to read the epilogue for Book 4. The author gets paid for an extra 500 or 600 page reads even though the majority of their readers are skipping right over them. Ka-ching! An extra $2.50-3.00 is generated for the author for just about every legit read.

The INTENT is what matters here. Authors are doing this, not out of the kindness of their hearts and being generous with their readers, but with the SOLE PURPOSE of scamming the KU payout system by content-stuffing. And no, for the *majority* of the customers, it's not a windfall. Not if they're getting served duplicate content they've already purchased or borrowed and read before.

_Or what Amanda also said while I was typing and multitasking.  _


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## sela

Atlantisatheart said:


> I have absolutely no problem in them banning bundles at all - especially the multi author ones that annoyingly screw up the data and release of genuine 'new' books, and push everyone's author rankings down while tying up readers for hours and hours when (as Amazon should see it) they should be back purchasing books - and charging .99c/p for a bundle should also be banned. Depending on the size of the 'genuine' series of books being offered they should have to start at a reasonable price, say $2.99. I'm not sure why Amazon have let this go on for so long.
> 
> Ok, let the screaming begin.


Well, I am against scamming, and by scamming, I mean using loopholes in the system to try to get pages read that are not actually being read by actual readers. That is illegitimate money.

People who use loopholes to get illegitimate money are scammers plain and simple. They are breaking rules and ethics, if not laws.

So, I am against the book-padding scammers who deliberately organize a collection of repeated books to bypass Amazon TOS, and arrange things so that the reader has to skip over pages to get to the intended and advertised content, thus getting page reads that are not really being read.

If a person thinks this is fine and dandy, they are wrong. It is cheating. Yes, Amazon set it up this way but Amazon never intended to pay for pages not read. Just because it can't actually count pages as accurately as we thought doesn't mean it's right to scam them. It's not right. Your daddy taught you that, and if he didn't yo momma should have. You know it's not right. Just because Amazon is a huge corporation and often feels soulless doesn't make it right to scam them. It hurts legitimate authors trying to find and maintain a business / career. There will be black hat types who don't give a sh*t about legitimate authors, but other authors should at least not break the rules knowingly and scam because it ends up hurting all of us when Amazon comes in with some ham-fisted fix. Don't scam. I shouldn't even have to write that.

I don't see bundles as scams. Some people just want the whole series in one book so they don't have to go back to KU and find the next book, etc. They buy and borrow bundles specifically so they can get all the books at once. Bundling in and of itself is not scamming. It is a legitimate business practice done because some readers prefer them over individual books.

Using bundles that repeat material again and again with the intent to get illegitimate page reads is scamming.

Giving away free content at the back of the book, such as the first chapter of the next book as a preview, is not a scam. That is an old practice that is part of a marketing strategy for the series.

Giving away a first book in another series is not a scam, if it is advertised in the product description. It is a way to get new eyes on the other series. Padding the book with a dozen other books not advertised in the hopes of getting illegitimate page reads is a scam. Shouldn't even have to be said.

Pricing a book (or bundle of books) at 99c for a limited time sale -- or even forever -- is not a scam. It is a pricing tactic used to get sales and increase visibility and gain new readers. You may not agree with it, but it's done because readers respond. I want to retain the right to price as I see fit. I use 99c sales to attract new readers and gain visibility. I normally price my books $4.99 for a full length novel and $9.99 for a collection but I do run 99c sales for my books and collections and see nothing wrong with it.

Multi-author collections are not scams. They are advertising tools. They attract new readers and help with visibility. If you can get into legitimate collections, you should. They are good for the bottom line and for visibility, especially for prawny authors. They are not scams in and of themselves.

Each of these tactics can be used by scammers, but they are also tools used by legitimate authors to help increase sales and visibility.


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## KelliWolfe

Part of the problem would be solved if Amazon would split out the KU rankings in the lists the way that they did with free titles.

A borrow isn't the same as a sale. There's no *price* on a borrow to make it equivalent. As far as the reader is concerned it's just another free download, and there's no real value attached to it. You can borrow a $9.99 book in KU without having to think twice about it. If you read 10 pages and don't like it, you just return it. If you forget about it and decide you don't want to read it at all, you return it. You're going to think a lot harder before you click the "Buy" button on that $9.99 book, though. If it doesn't look great and sound great, you're probably not going to get it. (Yes, I realize people return books in the store as well, but it's quite rare because most people like to think that they've gotten some value for their money.) So treating the two transactions as though they're equivalent is seriously skewing the rankings in the store.

Thousands of people will download a free title that they wouldn't pay 99 cents for. And thousands of people will borrow books through KU that they wouldn't pay for. Lumping them together in the rankings makes no sense.


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## Amanda M. Lee

KelliWolfe said:


> Part of the problem would be solved if Amazon would split out the KU rankings in the lists the way that they did with free titles.
> 
> A borrow isn't the same as a sale. There's no *price* on a borrow to make it equivalent. As far as the reader is concerned it's just another free download, and there's no real value attached to it. You can borrow a $9.99 book in KU without having to think twice about it. If you read 10 pages and don't like it, you just return it. If you forget about it and decide you don't want to read it at all, you return it. You're going to think a lot harder before you click the "Buy" button on that $9.99 book, though. If it doesn't look great and sound great, you're probably not going to get it. (Yes, I realize people return books in the store as well, but it's quite rare because most people like to think that they've gotten some value for their money.) So treating the two transactions as though they're equivalent is seriously skewing the rankings in the store.
> 
> Thousands of people will download a free title that they wouldn't pay 99 cents for. And thousands of people will borrow books through KU that they wouldn't pay for. Lumping them together in the rankings makes no sense.


It's an enticement to get authors to join Select. That won't go anywhere because it's purely the reason a lot of people go with Select. Amazon knows that.


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## KelliWolfe

I know they won't change it, but it's a broken system. Just like when you poke through the top 100 author lists in so many genres and you see dozens of people with a couple of books in their catalogs (usually ranked around 500k or so) but are credited on one of those 99 cent megabundles so suddenly they're listed above people who make half a million dollars or more a year. Because yeah, that make a lot of sense.


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## sela

KelliWolfe said:


> Part of the problem would be solved if Amazon would split out the KU rankings in the lists the way that they did with free titles.
> 
> A borrow isn't the same as a sale. There's no *price* on a borrow to make it equivalent. As far as the reader is concerned it's just another free download, and there's no real value attached to it. You can borrow a $9.99 book in KU without having to think twice about it. If you read 10 pages and don't like it, you just return it. If you forget about it and decide you don't want to read it at all, you return it. You're going to think a lot harder before you click the "Buy" button on that $9.99 book, though. If it doesn't look great and sound great, you're probably not going to get it. (Yes, I realize people return books in the store as well, but it's quite rare because most people like to think that they've gotten some value for their money.) So treating the two transactions as though they're equivalent is seriously skewing the rankings in the store.
> 
> Thousands of people will download a free title that they wouldn't pay 99 cents for. And thousands of people will borrow books through KU that they wouldn't pay for. Lumping them together in the rankings makes no sense.


Sorry, but it sounds a bit like sour grapes to me. Yes it's hard to compete with KU books, since they are incentivized, but that's the reality of doing business with Amazon. It's hard to sell books, period. There is a simple solution: write books that readers want to buy. Package them competitively. Market them smartly.

There's no way that authors would agree to put KU books into a separate "list" that is different from the main books bestsellers lists. No way. KU authors are exclusive and when you are exclusive, you get perks. Being in a separate list outside of the main list would be a disincentive.

Besides, authors in KU also sell books to non-KU customers and rely on that income. Their books have to appear in the regular book bestsellers lists to be fair to that part of their business.


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## Amanda M. Lee

KelliWolfe said:


> I know they won't change it, but it's a broken system. Just like when you poke through the top 100 author lists in so many genres and you see dozens of people with a couple of books in their catalogs (usually ranked around 500k or so) but are credited on one of those 99 cent megabundles so suddenly they're listed above people who make half a million dollars or more a year. Because yeah, that make a lot of sense.


I wouldn't be surprised if that changes soon. Amazon changed the way All Star bonuses were credited, taking that into account this past summer. Now it's the combination that counts toward the bonus, not the individual author name. So John Smith's numbers get credited for any book he's the sole author on. If John Smith is in a boxed set with ten other authors, those eleven authors get those numbers countered together for a bonus, but only in that configuration. If that configuration earns a bonus then all of the authors have to share it.


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## KelliWolfe

sela said:


> Sorry, but it sounds a bit like sour grapes to me. Yes it's hard to compete with KU books, since they are incentivized, but that's the reality of doing business with Amazon. It's hard to sell books, period. There is a simple solution: write books that readers want to buy. Package them competitively. Market them smartly.


No, it's the exact same reason why Amazon split the free titles out of the bestseller lists back in 2012. Free titles were crowding out the paid books, because people will grab things that are free even if they aren't ever going to use them - or read them. People here have said they have hundreds of free books they've downloaded that they may never get around to reading. It makes no sense to treat them as the same, so Amazon doesn't.

A borrow is not the same as a sale. There's no financial penalty associated with picking a book you don't like the way that there is for a sale. It's more like downloading those free books. If you get around to reading it, fine. If you don't, you just return it and you're not out anything. People don't behave that way when they're _buying_ books. So ranking them together is like ranking apples and oranges.

I know _why_ it's done. But that doesn't mean that it isn't causing distortions in the system, the exact same way that all the free titles were doing to the paid books in the top 100 lists before Amazon took them out. Because as far as the readers are concerned, a book in KU is essentially no different than a permafree. We may get paid something for them, but the reader doesn't know or care how or what because they're not involved in that part of the transaction. It's just a "free" book they get to read.


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## Mark E. Cooper

I have no skin in this game, but I do wonder if Prime Reading will be KU's successor. Authors might be given a yearly fee for books that are entered, and no page reads or royalty. A bit like Netflix for books.


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## David VanDyke

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if that changes soon. Amazon changed the way All Star bonuses were credited, taking that into account this past summer. Now it's the combination that counts toward the bonus, not the individual author name. So John Smith's numbers get credited for any book he's the sole author on. If John Smith is in a boxed set with ten other authors, those eleven authors get those numbers countered together for a bonus, but only in that configuration. If that configuration earns a bonus then all of the authors have to share it.


Do you have evidence of this? Because they won't split royalties among more than one author, why would they split bonuses?

I'm pretty sure only the publishing author gets the money, and after that's it's out of Amazon's hands.


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## Amanda M. Lee

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I have no skin in this game, but I do wonder if Prime Reading will be KU's successor. Authors might be given a yearly fee for books that are entered, and no page reads or royalty. A bit like Netflix for books.


No. That works counter to Amazon's goal. KU brings in the added fee with KU and offers authors something for exclusivity (which they desperately want). Prime Reading is highly curated content that is meant to direct readers to KU. No one has an entire series in Prime Reading. It's a sample to get people to buy KU memberships. Absolutely no one would stay behind for Prime Reading without page or unit reads and Amazon is well aware of that.


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## Amanda M. Lee

David VanDyke said:


> Do you have evidence of this? Because they won't split royalties among more than one author, why would they split bonuses?
> 
> I'm pretty sure only the publishing author gets the money, and after that's it's out of Amazon's hands.


Do I have evidence that they're calculating bonuses differently? Yes. They said they were. I probably should've stated that the bonus would be distributed to the publishing author's account and it would be up to them to split it between authors. However, those numbers don't count toward bonuses for the individual authors now. The one collection has to earn a bonus on its own and then it would be up to the publishing author to split the money. Before, the authors in the collection could count the reads toward their private bonuses. That is not the case any longer.


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## Jericho

SallyRose said:


> I conducted a "page flip" test of my own - results below.
> 
> After reading in this thread that someone could borrow and read an entire book and then flip back to the cover before closing and all of the pages read would be erased, I was shocked! How could Amazon release a new feature without even the basic testing that would reveal a flaw like this?
> 
> And yes, I completely understand how unexpected software glitches crop up, I worked for very large tech companies for a couple of decades. I also know the extensive internal and beta testing we conducted to flush out and correct problems before they were passed along to customers. It's one thing for Amazon to underestimate how a navigational feature will be used (i.e. for reading mode) and then correct it when/if it is proven otherwise. It's another thing to not even test the feature adequately enough before introduction to know that it erases actual pages read...especially since that's how authors are paid.
> 
> Anyway, I realized I had a nonfiction book (KENP 130) that I wrote and released to learn the publishing process...and then promptly forgot about it. It was still enrolled in KU, and hadn't had a page read in many months. It was the perfect test case.
> 
> On Tuesday (10/25), I downloaded the book with my KU subscription (I'd never borrowed it before), and opened and read the first 10%. I closed the app (I read using the Kindle app on an iPad). Within 2-3 hours, 13 pages read were logged onto my KDP dashboard report. Perfect, everything was operating as it should. Once those pages were logged, I opened the book again and read to the end. When I reached the last page, I tapped the screen and navigated back to the cover, paused a couple of seconds and closed the book.
> 
> And then I waited...and waited...and waited...for my remaining 117 pages to show up on my dashboard. ZIP, NADA, ZILCH. The original 13 pages are still on my chart, so it appears that once pages are logged, they remain (at least in my test). But, if someone were to borrow, read offline and have flipped back to the cover at the end of the book then it would certainly not register more than 1 page (best case) when the app synched. Or, if they're connected to wifi and take a break while reading, (like I did), some pages might register, others not.
> 
> I continued to wait for my missing pages until I passed the supposed 48hr mark, just to make sure that Amazon can't magically make them appear when I inquire and pretend it was a normal "reporting lag." (Yes, at this point I'm fairly cynical). I hit that mark this afternoon and then emailed all of the information to a contact I had on the Executive Customer Relations team at Amazon and requested a call to discuss.
> 
> When/if I hear something, I'll report it here.


Could this be because, as others have stated, once the book has registered with Amazon that it has been read it will not add more pages? For example if someone were to borrow a book and not read the entire book in one sitting is there any evidence to suggest that the kdp will then update the book with further page read progress?

So, if someone reads a few pages one day, that registers with KU and then a week later reads a few more pages, that also registers with KU, and the author continues to get credit for the book until the book is completed. (This is the common accepted theory)

I ask because there is information existing in this forum and others that once the book has been read kdp/ku will not credit the book as being read again.

If this is the case does this function only kick in once the book has been read in its entirety?

Or once the book has been read and closed at whatever point the reader stops, does the credit for that book end there? And then any additional page reads are not credited to the author?

Has this been tested? Were those tests conclusive in suggesting this portion of the KU page read is functional and accurate?


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## Jericho

AliceW said:


> Because a large number of us aren't affected. You simply don't hear about the tens of thousands of authors with no issue because we have nothing to complain about. I'm having a great October.


You may still be receiving "1 page reads" or less than the accurate page reads and those pages are being masked by other additional page reads where the reader did not perform the actions that would result in a "1 page read" issue. So, in essence it's great you had a wonderful month, but the possibility remains because of the discrepancy of what is reported and what you got, means you could have had an even greater month. Just saying.


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## Jericho

KelliWolfe said:


> I understand the mechanics of it perfectly well. But as with page flip, the question is whether it is reasonable to attribute that behavior to such a large percentage of users that it makes sense that individual writers are losing literally millions of page reads a month to it.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't think so. And I think if that _was_ the case then we'd be seeing it across the board. Writers with the kind of sales Amanda and Rosalind have wouldn't be telling us that they're seeing no change in their numbers. They're huge sellers in the genres that seem to have the most trouble, and they're all-in with KU.
> 
> So the navigation trick isn't the culprit, except for some small fraction of page reads that are insignificant compared to the true problem.


How can you state this so emphatically? And if it is causing an issue for some, is that not cause for concern into whether the entire accounting of the page reads is flawed?

I would love to see your data (or any data for that matter), not anecdotal claims, that proves this is not an issue across the board.

The page read issue could have lower numbers not just "1 page read". For example a book may report "12 pages read" when in fact there were many more read and not reported. Then, because of that books popularity, those "12 pages read" could be masked by someone else's reads who were 185, or whatever, then it all gets thrown into the same pot. So, those "12 pages read" virtually disappear.

There are enough people on this thread and _many many_ other threads and boards on here, Facebook, twitter, reddit, etc... that suggest that this is a real issue. Not something to be swept under the rug simply because a few well known authors are having a great month. And Kudos for them if they are, that's not the point. The point is there is a provable flaw in the page read system. Period.

It's not a witch hunt or an Amazon are "bad guys" issue. It's an accounting issue. Amazon provides a wonderful opportunity for many unknown and self-published authors to make some money from their efforts. They've set up terms many have agreed to. If there is a flaw in the system that jeopardizes the legitimacy of those terms, they should want to know so they are 1. to be able to fix the issue to alleviate losses to authors and to themselves and continue further complications, 2. to potentially exculpate them from any liability concerns, and, 3. to accurately adhere to the terms they've set and others have voluntarily agreed to.

It's a little thing called honor and fair play. Otherwise, it's like playing a game with someone where all the players have agreed to the terms of play and then one player constantly changes the rules for further advantage to themselves. Have you ever played a game with people like this? It's not very fun.


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## SomeoneElse

Jericho said:


> You may still be receiving "1 page reads" or less than the accurate page reads and those pages are being masked by other additional page reads where the reader did not perform the actions that would result in a "1 page read" issue. So, in essence it's great you had a wonderful month, but the possibility remains because of the discrepancy of what is reported and what you got, means you could have had an even greater month. Just saying.


I'm low enough volume to have noticed something about 1 page reads: quite often, they turn into more page reads. As in, the same user comes back. For example, last week I had a mid-week 1 page read from the UK. Over Fri/Sat I got the rest of the reads. Sure, I can't 'know' this was the same person, but I track my rank well enough to know that was my only UK borrow on that book in weeks.

Even in the US, two days ago I had one page read on the second book in my series, again a low seller. Rank tracking tells me I had two borrows that week, and now, two days later, I have the exact amount of pages for two reads. I noticed the same pattern with book 3, too (which had no borrows for the whole of October, so I can be pretty sure those reads came from the two readers I've had in the past couple of days.)

I don't know what's causing the one page thing - whether there's a device that now opens a book as soon as you download it, or maybe Amazon is now recording 1 page when a book is started with Wi-Fi enabled, and the rest of the pages when the book is closed (and Wi-Fi is enabled.) But maybe the 1 pages aren't a bad a sign as they seem?


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## PearlEarringLady

Jericho said:


> I would love to see your data (or any data for that matter), not anecdotal claims, that proves this is not an issue across the board.


The data that proves this is not an issue across the board is the total number of page reads for September. It was just 6% down on the previous month (allowing for number of days in the month). That alone tells you that the number of people drastically affected was quite small. It doesn't make it any less serious for those people, and I'm not trying to airbrush the problem out of existence, but it does appear that a great many people were either not affected at all, or only to a small degree.

As Amanda has said several times, we should be looking for common factors within the group of people affected, to try to nail down if there's something different or unusual about them.


----------



## Lady Vine

KelliWolfe said:


> No, it's the exact same reason why Amazon split the free titles out of the bestseller lists back in 2012. Free titles were crowding out the paid books, because people will grab things that are free even if they aren't ever going to use them - or read them. People here have said they have hundreds of free books they've downloaded that they may never get around to reading. It makes no sense to treat them as the same, so Amazon doesn't.
> 
> A borrow is not the same as a sale. There's no financial penalty associated with picking a book you don't like the way that there is for a sale. It's more like downloading those free books. If you get around to reading it, fine. If you don't, you just return it and you're not out anything. People don't behave that way when they're _buying_ books. So ranking them together is like ranking apples and oranges.
> 
> I know _why_ it's done. But that doesn't mean that it isn't causing distortions in the system, the exact same way that all the free titles were doing to the paid books in the top 100 lists before Amazon took them out. Because as far as the readers are concerned, a book in KU is essentially no different than a permafree. We may get paid something for them, but the reader doesn't know or care how or what because they're not involved in that part of the transaction. It's just a "free" book they get to read.


Not to mention that it's extremely misleading. You'll actually find lots of KU books on the BESTSELLER lists that sell fewer copies than non-KU books not on the list, or lower down on the list. This type of chicanery has existed for a long time in publishing, though. I didn't expect anything less from Amazon.


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## Jericho

LSMay said:


> I'm low enough volume to have noticed something about 1 page reads: quite often, they turn into more page reads. As in, the same user comes back. For example, last week I had a mid-week 1 page read from the UK. Over Fri/Sat I got the rest of the reads. Sure, I can't 'know' this was the same person, but I track my rank well enough to know that was my only UK borrow on that book in weeks.
> 
> Even in the US, two days ago I had one page read on the second book in my series, again a low seller. Rank tracking tells me I had two borrows that week, and now, two days later, I have the exact amount of pages for two reads. I noticed the same pattern with book 3, too (which had no borrows for the whole of October, so I can be pretty sure those reads came from the two readers I've had in the past couple of days.)
> 
> I don't know what's causing the one page thing - whether there's a device that now opens a book as soon as you download it, or maybe Amazon is now recording 1 page when a book is started with Wi-Fi enabled, and the rest of the pages when the book is closed (and Wi-Fi is enabled.) But maybe the 1 pages aren't a bad a sign as they seem?


I love to see this data. I say this because I've seen video proof that the "1 page read" is reported from a single source kindle reader, then the additional pages are never registered. It is an issue.

Again, it doesn't have to be only a registered "1 page read" the book could have lowered numbers than the actual page reads of the book. There is evidence of this. That's what makes it a huge problem. Because what it amounts to is there being no way to accurately tell if the reader and the page reads accounting are properly aligned. This affects the author because 1. the book is exclusive to Amazon under the terms of _their_ agreement. (if they change it, and the author can be enrolled in KU and still go wide that's great, but for now) 2. they are not receiving proper compensation for this product they're providing to the KU program. Amazon, still gets their cut.

Why are you so willing to give an "assumption of accuracy" when it comes to your payout?

If you worked "eight hours" at your job and your employer paid you for "one hour" would you not be concerned, and would you sit on your hands hoping they'd get you back for the additional time worked/owed? Or would you want to know why you were only paid for one hour? And seek a remedy to make certain your efforts were being properly monetized? Not just hoping they will be?


----------



## Jericho

PaulineMRoss said:


> The data that proves this is not an issue across the board is the total number of page reads for September. It was just 6% down on the previous month (allowing for number of days in the month). That alone tells you that the number of people drastically affected was quite small. It doesn't make it any less serious for those people, and I'm not trying to airbrush the problem out of existence, but it does appear that a great many people were either not affected at all, or only to a small degree.
> 
> As Amanda has said several times, we should be looking for common factors within the group of people affected, to try to nail down if there's something different or unusual about them.


6% is quite a drop for one day (if you're meaning August 31 days, to September 30 days) that's still very significant.

If a great many people are affected even to a small degree, when all is said and done, that's a large amount, monetarily speaking. Right?

Is the onus of correction on the authors? Or is it on Amazon?


----------



## SomeoneElse

Jericho said:


> Why are you so willing to give an "assumption of accuracy" when it comes to your payout?
> 
> If you worked "eight hours" at your job and your employer paid you for "one hour" would you not be concerned, and would you sit on your hands hoping they'd get you back for the additional time worked/owed? Or would you want to know why you were only paid for one hour? And seek a remedy to make certain your efforts were being properly monetized? Not just hoping they will be?


Just to clarify, I never said all pages are being registered. I never said anything was accurate. All I did was provide my experience that, while I was getting 1 page reads, I was also getting the rest of the page reads from those borrows. I thought it might have been useful to people like yourself who are concerned about the one page reads, because it shows that the one page reads, _in themselves_, are not necessarily an issue. I thought it might help people find the issue in the right place.

Why are so quick to attack anyone who adds to the conversation?


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## PearlEarringLady

Jericho said:


> 6% is quite a drop for one day (if you're meaning August 31 days, to September 30 days) that's still very significant.
> If a great many people are affected even to a small degree, when all is said and done, that's a large amount, monetarily speaking. Right?


The 6% was for the whole month, after adjusting for the fact that September was a day shorter than August. That means that the *average* drop in pages read was 6%. That then means that those people who lost 50-90% of their pages read were far above the average, and therefore atypical, and that a great many more people either suffered a much smaller drop, or saw no detectable drop at all.

As far as monetary loss, if the number of pages read goes down, the payout per page goes up. *In theory* this should balance out. Obviously, for those suffering huge losses, that doesn't work.


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## KelliWolfe

Perhaps we're simply being credited with a single page read at the time of borrow as a "placekeeper" or something for the software system Amazon has managing the back end. NULLs are bad in numeric fields, and they may have chosen to use 1 instead of 0 as the default value for some reason.


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## Jericho

LSMay said:


> because it shows that the one page reads, _in themselves_, are not necessarily an issue. I thought it might help people find the issue in the right place.
> 
> Why are so quick to attack anyone who adds to the conversation?


What is the "right issue" in your opinion, if the "1 page read" issue that pays $0.01 to the author is not the correct issue?

I'd love to see the data that you were credited for the rest of the page reads. Simply because other posters have noted this is not the case often enough for it to be an issue.

When did I attack you? I never stated anything about you personally. Nor do I intend to. I may have addressed your premise, but that was all.


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## SomeoneElse

KelliWolfe said:


> Perhaps we're simply being credited with a single page read at the time of borrow as a "placekeeper" or something for the software system Amazon has managing the back end. NULLs are bad in numeric fields, and they may have chosen to use 1 instead of 0 as the default value for some reason.


I wondered that, but I have at least one borrow in October where that wasn't the case (my rank jumped, so I know the book was borrowed, but no pages registered for that book on that day.)

I have noticed that, while I used to watch my rank jump, _then_ my reads register on my graph, these days the two things happen in the opposite order. (I.e., I get page reads on the graph, then a few hours later my rank jumps.) So they might have done something to make registering pages more immediate that involves one page as soon as it's opened.


----------



## Jericho

KelliWolfe said:


> Perhaps we're simply being credited with a single page read at the time of borrow as a "placekeeper" or something for the software system Amazon has managing the back end. NULLs are bad in numeric fields, and they may have chosen to use 1 instead of 0 as the default value for some reason.


Because you say "perhaps" ... I can rightly assume you don't know for sure. That is an issue. Not knowing for sure whether or not the author is being credited correctly is an issue. Also, I've seen video evidence that this is not the case.


----------



## Jericho

LSMay said:


> I wondered that, but I have at least one borrow in October where that wasn't the case (my rank jumped, so I know the book was borrowed, but no pages registered for that book on that day.)
> 
> I have noticed that, while I used to watch my rank jump, _then_ my reads register on my graph, these days the two things happen in the opposite order. (I.e., I get page reads on the graph, then a few hours later my rank jumps.) So they might have done something to make registering pages more immediate that involves one page as soon as it's opened.


I was told the "rank" is not affected by "page reads" so these two while related do not necessary correlate to higher ranking. A borrow determines rank. (Correct me if I'm wrong) Page reads are what the author earns for their product. (Again, correct me if I'm wrong.) However, while the rank of a book could be relatively high because of borrows, that same book may not have been read at the time of the borrow. The payout is based off of "page reads" not borrows.

If the page reads are inaccurate, the author is not being paid correctly. Those who have tested this model know that the page reads are inaccurate, therefore, authors may not be getting accurate compensation.


----------



## SomeoneElse

Jericho said:


> What is the "right issue" in your opinion, if the "1 page read" issue that pays $0.01 to the author is not the correct issue?
> 
> I'd love to see the data that you were credited for the rest of the page reads. Simply because other posters have noted this is not the case often enough for it to be an issue.
> 
> When did I attack you? I never stated anything about you personally. Nor do I intend to. I may have addressed your premise, but that was all.


I felt the implication that everything I said was wrong and/or lies and that what I'm doing in providing my experience is somehow akin to encouraging people not to pay others fairly somewhat attacking. Perhaps that wasn't your intention.

Let me clarify - I believe there is an issue with pages not being recorded for some people. I believe you've seen situations where one page has been read, and then the other pages read have not been recorded. All I'm trying to say is that I've seen cases where the one page read thing didn't lead to no further pages read. So maybe the issue causing no pages to be recorded is separate from the mechanism that records one page.

I was trying to assist those people affected by this issue in narrowing down what the glitch is. At no point did I ever state that I didn't believe they were having an issue, or that their concerns weren't valid.



Jericho said:


> I was told the "rank" is not affected by "page reads" so these two while related do not necessary correlate to higher ranking. A borrow determines rank. (Correct me if I'm wrong) Page reads are what the author earns for their product. (Again, correct me if I'm wrong.) However, while the rank of a book could be relatively high because of borrows, that same book may not have been read at the time of the borrow. The payout is based off of "page reads" not borrows.


No - the rank is not affected by the page reads. But in order to have page reads, there must first be a borrow. The rank tells me if I have a borrow. I'm low volume, but I track things carefully. It used to be fairly regular that I would see a rank jump with no sale (a borrow) then reads. Now it's fairly regular that I see the reads out of nowhere, and a few hours later there's a rank jump (a borrow.)

My worst books are borrowed once or twice a month. Rank jumps can be over 1 million places - unmistakable. It would be a huge coincidence if, the same day one was borrowed, the person who borrowed it two weeks ago started it. Possible, yes, but that's why I waited until I'd seen more pages appear after a 1 page read 3 times before I mentioned it.


----------



## ......~......

KelliWolfe said:


> No, it's the exact same reason why Amazon split the free titles out of the bestseller lists back in 2012. Free titles were crowding out the paid books, because people will grab things that are free even if they aren't ever going to use them - or read them. People here have said they have hundreds of free books they've downloaded that they may never get around to reading. It makes no sense to treat them as the same, so Amazon doesn't.
> 
> A borrow is not the same as a sale. There's no financial penalty associated with picking a book you don't like the way that there is for a sale. It's more like downloading those free books. If you get around to reading it, fine. If you don't, you just return it and you're not out anything. People don't behave that way when they're _buying_ books. So ranking them together is like ranking apples and oranges.
> 
> I know _why_ it's done. But that doesn't mean that it isn't causing distortions in the system, the exact same way that all the free titles were doing to the paid books in the top 100 lists before Amazon took them out. Because as far as the readers are concerned, a book in KU is essentially no different than a permafree. We may get paid something for them, but the reader doesn't know or care how or what because they're not involved in that part of the transaction. It's just a "free" book they get to read.


Equating KU books to free books or permafrees is beyond ridiculous. I have to pay a monthly fee to be in KU. It's not free by any means.


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## Jericho

LSMay said:


> I felt the implication that everything I said was wrong and/or lies and that what I'm doing in providing my experience is somehow akin to encouraging people not to pay others fairly somewhat attacking. Perhaps that wasn't your intention.


Not sure how you're reading that into the copy I wrote, but it's the furthest thing from my mind. To clarify, my concern is only with the "page reads issue," not rankings, or scamming, or who's lying or or who is not affected. I'm concerned only with those who are affected by the page read issue, which is the main purpose of this topic thread.



LSMay said:


> Let me clarify - I believe there is an issue with pages not being recorded for some people. I believe you've seen situations where one page has been read, and then the other pages read have not been recorded.


This is accurate. This is the issue I'm addressing. As this pertains to author pay.



LSMay said:


> I was trying to assist those people affected by this issue in narrowing down what the glitch is. At no point did I ever state that I didn't believe they were having an issue, or that their concerns weren't valid.


If authors are recording this and reporting it, no matter how few, addressing it is beneficial to all, correct? And if it is beneficial to all it helps to assess whether its a symptom of a larger problem, is it a sickness with a known cure? An epidemic? A pandemic?


----------



## KelliWolfe

NeedWant said:


> Equating KU books to free books or permafrees is beyond ridiculous. I have to pay a monthly fee to be in KU. It's not free by any means.


You pay for the subscription, not for the books. KU decouples the price of the book from the borrow. The price of the book is no longer of any relevance to whether you read it or not, as it would be for a sale. If you want to read thirty books a month that are priced at $9.99 with your subscription, you can. Price is no longer an impediment to reading the book. For all practical purposes, once you have a subscription the books are free. You no longer have to wonder whether you should spend the $4.99 on that thriller. You don't have to look at the $7.99 romance and wonder if it's really worth it, or if you should keep looking for something that has better reviews. You borrow it and you don't have to care.

This makes KU borrows much more akin to snagging free books than to a sale where you actually have to evaluate in each case whether the book is worth the price or not. Ask yourself, honestly, how many books have you borrowed that you never would have paid the cover price for?

I'll answer for myself. I read maybe 40% of the books I download through KU. Half of the ones I don't read I return without ever even opening, because they were impulse borrows and the impulse passed. For whatever reason, when I go back later they don't appeal, so I return them. The rest get returned as DNFs. The writing was bad, or the author didn't bother with basic proofreading, or the story just didn't hold my interest, or the author was writing something like a Regency without bothering to do any basic research first... Whatever. The point is that there is no cost associated with choosing bad books. I'm not out anything. I just return them, no muss , no fuss. I'm not kicking myself because I just spent $9.99 on an unedited piece of drivel and wishing I'd bought that other book I was looking at instead.

I'm much more careful about the books that I actually buy. The cover and blurb can't be iffy. I'll check the Look Inside to make sure there aren't obvious spelling and grammar mistakes in the first paragraph. I check the reviews, usually the one and two stars first. I don't generally bother doing much of that if I'm borrowing it through KU, because there's no financial penalty if I make a bad choice.


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## Jericho

I'd like to add one more point to this discussion as it pertains to "page reads". If the KU registers a "1 page read" or even fewer than the total amount of pages actually read, are we to assume that in all instances Amazon is systematically going through each registered page read in their audits to check the accuracy?

It is reasonable to assume that the reason Amazon ECR has been stating, "We've looked at the data and can't find a systematic issue affecting your results." Is because once the "1 page read" is accounted for, on their end, everything looks perfect. They've _had_ to address the issue once _many_ authors voiced their personal data suggesting the contrary.

But for all intents and purposes, Amazon is reporting their findings accurately, because that is what they are seeing on their end. That's why video evidence stipulating the discrepancies are important and invalidate that claim that they "can't find a systematic issue affecting the results." It's not because their isn't one, it's because it may not be showing on their end, or they may not be actively looking for one.

Either way, there is provable information that exists both in anecdotal claims from multiple authors, and in video evidence that states that if they were to look for a systematic issue affecting the results, they would find some.


----------



## ......~......

KelliWolfe said:


> You pay for the subscription, not for the books. KU decouples the price of the book from the borrow. The price of the book is no longer of any relevance to whether you read it or not, as it would be for a sale. If you want to read thirty books a month that are priced at $9.99 with your subscription, you can. Price is no longer an impediment to reading the book. For all practical purposes, once you have a subscription the books are free. You no longer have to wonder whether you should spend the $4.99 on that thriller. You don't have to look at the $7.99 romance and wonder if it's really worth it, or if you should keep looking for something that has better reviews. You borrow it and you don't have to care.
> 
> This makes KU borrows much more akin to snagging free books than to a sale where you actually have to evaluate in each case whether the book is worth the price or not. Ask yourself, honestly, how many books have you borrowed that you never would have paid the cover price for?
> 
> I'll answer for myself. I read maybe 40% of the books I download through KU. Half of the ones I don't read I return without ever even opening, because they were impulse borrows and the impulse passed. For whatever reason, when I go back later they don't appeal, so I return them. The rest get returned as DNFs. The writing was bad, or the author didn't bother with basic proofreading, or the story just didn't hold my interest, or the author was writing something like a Regency without bothering to do any basic research first... Whatever. The point is that there is no cost associated with choosing bad books. I'm not out anything. I just return them, no muss , no fuss. I'm not kicking myself because I just spent $9.99 on an unedited piece of drivel and wishing I'd bought that other book I was looking at instead.
> 
> I'm much more careful about the books that I actually buy. The cover and blurb can't be iffy. I'll check the Look Inside to make sure there aren't obvious spelling and grammar mistakes in the first paragraph. I check the reviews, usually the one and two stars first. I don't generally bother doing much of that if I'm borrowing it through KU, because there's no financial penalty if I make a bad choice.


I've had similar experiences with KU. I don't pay attention to price. I do read the reviews if there are any. Some months I read/borrow a lot of books, some months I don't borrow any but I still pay that monthly fee. It's not free and it doesn't feel free to me. If the book sucks, that author doesn't get paid for it because I don't read it. All they get is a rank boost from the borrow.

Now from the author's perspective: if I was exclusive to Amazon and in KU, what would the benefit of having a separate KU list be? None. KU borrows lead to a better rank which in turn leads to more paid sales and vice versa. If that benefit was gone, then I wouldn't be inclined to be exclusive to Amazon. Which defeats the whole purpose of Select/KU.


----------



## 75845

KelliWolfe said:


> Perhaps we're simply being credited with a single page read at the time of borrow as a "placekeeper" or something for the software system Amazon has managing the back end. NULLs are bad in numeric fields, and they may have chosen to use 1 instead of 0 as the default value for some reason.


That is possible, although only if claims that these single page reads became prevalent recently are incorrect (or Amazon changed the database mid program for some other reason). I still think its a Page Flip credit designed to ensure that a page is not lost to the author when a reader moves in an out of Page Flip. A page read costs so little that it would seem a worthwhile cost to pay authors extra pages than lose them one page. Unfortunately the techies probably aren't readers and don't know that although they made the Page Flip screen slightly more narrow than in Google Play it is still perfectly readable and easier to turn pages on a smartphone than "reading" mode. That or people like me who read the About This Book to catalogue it.


----------



## Jericho

Mercia McMahon said:


> I still think its a Page Flip credit designed to ensure that a page is not lost to the author when a reader moves in an out of Page Flip.


It is not just "page flip" that causes a "1 page read" issue. Also, it is not only "1 page read" registered. A lower than actual pages read is also part of the problem.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Let's not derail the thread.  Let me note that threads do ramble a bit, especially ones that have gone on this long.  Discuss the bits you want to discuss and ignore the others.  I've done some mild editing to keep the thread on track.

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Jericho

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Let's not derail the thread. Let me note that threads do ramble a bit, especially ones that have gone on this long. Discuss the bits you want to discuss and ignore the others. I've done some mild editing to keep the thread on track.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Betsy
> KB Mod


Thank you.

It's only for clarity of the topic to seek a remedy to the "page read" issue that I noted the derailments. I'm sure these discussions tend to waver a bit, but its great to know there is some support for our concerns with this page read topic. Your contribution is duly noted and appreciated!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Jericho said:


> Thank you.
> 
> It's only for clarity of the topic to seek a remedy to the "page read" issue that I noted the derailments. I'm sure these discussions tend to waver a bit, but its great to know there is some support for our concerns with this page read topic. Your contribution is duly noted and appreciated!


To be clear, the edits I've made recently have been to tone down personal comments made. Please stop making comments about other members and continue to address the issues at hand. While some mild snark is acceptable, recent posts have gone beyond that.

You know, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Good rule to live by.

I've made some additional edits.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## RedAlert

I just want to thank those that took the time to answer my questions regarding the bundling issue.  What an education.


----------



## Jericho

In the spirit of troubleshooting this complex issue:

What are some of the methods people are using to note the "page read" issue? What are some of the variances of results?

For example, there are those on reddit, Facebook, and on kboards discussing this issue at length as simply a "page flip" issue that yields these results. (While this is part of the overall problem, there are other methods that yield similar results) 

There are others who state it is a matter of simply scrolling backwards after the full read and then the reported "page reads" are wherever the last scrolled marker in the book is before being closed. 

There are those who have identified a "1 page read" if their TOC (table of contents) at the end of the book hyperlinks them back to the beginning of the book. 

Others have reported the "TOC" will not always result in "1 pages read" but will yield lower page read counts than what was experienced by the reader. 

Some have stated the page read issue if they switch from a desktop computer to a hand-held device or vice versa.

At this point, it may be extremely helpful to Amazon, while they search for a solution to this hiccup, to have a "master list" of attempted tests and all of their results (like a scientific approach). Basically, authors acting as a large group of product-testers who can help identify problem areas to make the whole platform work at its optimal level. 

In this way, the culprit area can be better assessed as well as better addressed, earlier, rather than later. Then, if this list were forwarded to ECR (not to bombard them with complaints, but actionable results), they would have important data to enhance their research into the issue.

As ECR has stated, "We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors. It helps us create a better platform for authors which in turn brings more content to Kindle readers." 

Amazon benefits. And authors benefit. Win-win. Then this awesome platform can not only continue, but thrive beyond any known expectations!


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

There are at least two issues:  The page-flip-no-pages-read issue, and the pages-read = point at which book is closed issue.

As to why some people are affected and others not, two hypotheses may apply (this is a simplified recapitulation of a post I made on the 30th):

1. If, e.g., Stephen King's manager noted a 90% drop in KU reads, you could be certain that there'd be hell to pay.  Same for other large sellers.  It would not be technically hard to put flags into the books of the large sellers that would say to the new Kindle software, "Use the old way of determining page count, not the new one."  Do I know this is happening?  No.  But it is certainly technically simple to do.

2. The irregularity of authors being hit might even be a test feature of the new Kindle software.  E.g., to determine the difference in the old page count method vs. the new page count method, authors could be selected for one method or the other based on something as simple as a hash-count of the author's last name.  Do I know this is the case?  No.  But it would also be easy to set up.

Combining 1 with 2 is also possible; that would explain just about all the page-read symptoms we're seeing, including, e.g., someone who complains and then starts to see things return to normal (following the #1 hypothesis, their books might, subsequent to the complaint, be flagged to use the old method).

I think this post got lost when the thread went off-track about the scam books climbing the "hot" charts, so I'm repeating the ideas here for further consideration.


----------



## Jericho

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> There are at least two issues: The page-flip-no-pages-read issue, and the pages-read = point at which book is closed issue.
> 
> As to why some people are affected and others not, two hypotheses may apply (this is a simplified recapitulation of a post I made on the 30th):
> 
> 1. If, e.g., Stephen King's manager noted a 90% drop in KU reads, you could be certain that there'd be hell to pay. Same for other large sellers. It would not be technically hard to put flags into the books of the large sellers that would say to the new Kindle software, "Use the old way of determining page count, not the new one." Do I know this is happening? No. But it is certainly technically simple to do.
> 
> 2. The irregularity of authors being hit might even be a test feature of the new Kindle software. E.g., to determine the difference in the old page count method vs. the new page count method, authors could be selected for one method or the other based on something as simple as a hash-count of the author's last name. Do I know this is the case? No. But it would also be easy to set up.
> 
> Combining 1 with 2 is also possible; that would explain just about all the page-read symptoms we're seeing, including, e.g., someone who complains and then starts to see things return to normal (following the #1 hypothesis, their books might, subsequent to the complaint, be flagged to use the old method).
> 
> I think this post got lost when the thread went off-track about the scam books climbing the "hot" charts, so I'm repeating the ideas here for further consideration.


Thank you! I know what you mean, now we're back on track! Before I continue though, your quote, "I began programming and doing systems work back in 1971, so I have some experience." Made me laugh when I first read it.

Anywho, back to the discussion, would a marker be possible to set up from an author's perspective? i.e. would it be against amazon's terms of service to institute a "create your own adventure" book with clickable hyperlinks throughout the book that target the issue without violating the TOS? For example, if you want adventure "a" click here. adventure "b" click here. then somewhere at the end of the book, make a link that goes back to the beginning of the book with a "see what your adventure would be like if you chose ..." and in this way it's not to cheat the system; make it of value to the reader first and foremost, but at the same time make it a loss leader for the author to test the results and share those results directly with Amazon?

Just a thought.

I saw a video the other day where the author clicked through the entire book, but not in "page flip" and the TOC (table of contents) at the end of the book brought them back to the front of the book, therefore creating a "1 page read." A bit different than the traditional "page flip, scrolling issue."

In this way, creating a book that duplicates this result for the purposes of data may be helpful to the techies as they work this out.


----------



## Gator

PaulineMRoss said:


> The 6% was for the whole month, after adjusting for the fact that September was a day shorter than August. That means that the *average* drop in pages read was 6%. That then means that those people who lost 50-90% of their pages read were far above the average, and therefore atypical, and that a great many more people either suffered a much smaller drop, or saw no detectable drop at all.


September's page read drop was only 4.35% from August, and that's within historical norms, which is probably why Amazon didn't see any red flags before the complaints started rolling in.

Evidence:

$15.8 million Aug. 2016 KDP Select Global Fund / $0.004575 per KENP / 31 days = 111.4 million pages read per day

$15.9 million Sept. 2016 KDP Select Global Fund / $0.004974 per KENP / 30 days = 106.55 million pages read per day

106.55 million pages / 111.4 million pages = 0.95646 or 95.646%

100% - 95.646% = *4.35% drop from August to September 2016*.

*Previous Months*

Is a 4.35% drop reason for concern? Let's compare September to previous months:

May 2016: 105.3 million pages read per day
June 2016: 104.2 million pages read per day
July 2016: 104.0 million pages read per day

That's an average of 104.5 million pages read per day.

106.55 million pages / 104.5 million pages = 1.0198 or 101.98%

101.98% - 100% = 1.98% gain

A monthly gain of 2% two months later is nothing to lose sleep over. It's normal, steady growth for a mature program.

Why were August's page reads so high? Besides being a summer month in the northern hemisphere when readers have a little more time to read, a likely culprit is Amazon's 2nd annual Prime Day on July 12th, where Prime members got good deals, including deep discounts on KU subscriptions. More KU customers means more page reads. New customers commonly use the subscription far more the first month than they do in subsequent months. Also, when I look at August's daily gains and losses in KU eBooks, I can see that Amazon could have been more aggressive in culling eBooks out of KU (as Amazon did in earlier months).

So, nothing for Amazon to be alarmed about when comparing September to earlier 2016 numbers.

*Previous Years*

We can also compare these numbers to September KDP Select results from previous years.

In summer 2014, KU was in initial growth mode, and September borrows exceeded August's by 11.4%. September was the second full month of KU, so this is within the expected growth range.

In summer 2015, KU was again in initial growth mode, since KU had truckloads of new novels added when eBooks began to be paid by pages read instead of per borrow read past 10%, and the 1st annual Prime Day hit July 15th, with a ton of new KU subscribers. Amazon recalibrated KENPCs in both August and September 2015, so it's difficult to compare results precisely. September page reads exceeded August's by 6.54% if we don't account for the recalibration.

But comparing initial monthly growth with the slower monthly growth of a more mature market isn't really a useful comparison. For example, Sept. 2013 had 15,152 borrows per day (equivalent to about 3.351 million pages read per day), Sept. 2014 had 109,650 borrows per day (equivalent to about 24.25 million pages read per day), Sept. 2015 had 78.90 million pages read per day, and Sept. 2016 had 106.55 million pages read per day. While it's difficult to maintain the same percentage growth year after year in any business, this is very respectable year-over-year growth in absolute numbers of KDP Select borrows/pages read every year.

*Slow Growth Months*

What about when KDP Select wasn't in initial growth mode? Borrows dropped from 15,701 borrows per day in August 2013 to 15,152 borrows per day in September 2013. That's a 3.50% drop. Pretty close to the 4.35% drop we had this year. Neither are worrisome when compared to historical numbers.

For example, the three months preceding August 2013 had 15,841, 16,369, and 17,394 borrows per day, for an average of 16,535 borrows per day.

15,152 borrows / 16,535 borrows = 0.91636 or 91.64%

100% - 91.64% = 8.36% drop

An 8.36% drop in 2013's slowly growing market vs. a 2% gain in 2016's slowly growing market? Now you can see why Amazon's not panicking over September's KU results.

I'm not saying there aren't multiple problems with counting page reads. I'm saying, in aggregate, Amazon didn't view the September numbers as alarming because they didn't significantly diverge from expectations.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jericho said:


> Thank you! I know what you mean, now we're back on track! Before I continue though, your quote, "I began programming and doing systems work back in 1971, so I have some experience." Made me laugh when I first read it.
> 
> Anywho, back to the discussion, would a marker be possible to set up from an author's perspective? i.e. would it be against amazon's terms of service to institute a "create your own adventure" book with clickable hyperlinks throughout the book that target the issue without violating the TOS? For example, if you want adventure "a" click here. adventure "b" click here. then somewhere at the end of the book, make a link that goes back to the beginning of the book with a "see what your adventure would be like if you chose ..." and in this way it's not to cheat the system; make it of value to the reader first and foremost, but at the same time make it a loss leader for the author to test the results and share those results directly with Amazon?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> I saw a video the other day where the author clicked through the entire book, but not in "page flip" and the TOC (table of contents) at the end of the book brought them back to the front of the book, therefore creating a "1 page read." A bit different than the traditional "page flip, scrolling issue."
> 
> In this way, creating a book that duplicates this result for the purposes of data may be helpful to the techies as they work this out.


Unless my joke about Amazon using unpaid interns to write the Kindle software has a basis in fact, the KU IT team should already have test beds available. It should not take them ten minutes to verify or disprove the reports that must be flooding in to them.

What's probably holding things up is the reluctance of management to okay doing this the right way, viz.: to use a KENPC-page-read bit table that marks pages read _individually_, and that, upon close of book, counts the flagged pages and reports that _tally_ up to Amazon. Such a bit table, located as ASCII-hex in, say, html comments in the book, would have to be heavily encrypted and include encryption nulls (NOT the same thing as Hex 00's) to keep hackers from just setting a few bits and opening and closing a volume. But, that would be just a bit of ugly code and not actually that difficult. Also, if the coding is good enough, setting a page flag might even mean UN-setting a bit. Additionally, checksums could be hidden in the flags table to detect alteration attempts, which would result in immediate account cancellation.

What the KU team evidently lacked was an analyst with some years of practical application experience, and we're seeing the result.

As to creating a "Find-Your-Fate" type of e-book, I can't see how that would violate any kind of TOS clause, but I'm not KDP.


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## Typerider

Amanda M. Lee said:


> There is a subset of authors out there bundling in a certain manner to pad KENPC. It's hurting legitimate bundlers. I think it will be a moot point eventually. I look for Amazon to ban bundles from KU before it's all said and done. We're not quite there yet, though.
> What's essentially happening is that an author is taking eight books (it's not always that number but I'm picking one number to make it easier). They take those eight books and put one on the cover. Then they offer the rest for free as "bonus" books. Then they change the configuration and put a different cover on it. It's the same content, just rearranged. They'd do this eight times to get as close to the KENPC limit as possible.
> A true bundle is meant as a way to give customers value for their purchase. Three books for a couple of bucks off to encourage people to jump into a series late. What's happening here is that people don't trust their work to stand on its own so they're trying to trick readers into going through the same content multiple times and inflating the KENPC to do it. It's a way of abusing the system.


Hello. First post and I'm going to disagree. You can't pad your KENPC by bundling. You can piss off your readers who thought they were buying a 300 page novel only to find it's a 60 page story with a bunch of junk on the end.

Why is so much erotica bundled? (And why the coy references to men without shirts on? It's explicit sex. Smut is a word a lot of the writers use to refer to themselves. I don't. I write erotica. ) One reason is: some kinds of readers only want shorts. They want a story to read on break or at lunch or in bed. They want something they can read and delete. Others want a bundle, they like the writer's style, the way the author presents their specific kink, and they want a bunch of stories at a better price.

That's catering to the readers.

Another reason is to keep republishing to stay near the top with books coming out three times a week. Do this with a few different names and you can block the competition.

I'm all for Amazon doing something about it. But I'm not in favor of posts that create an "us/them" mentality. Because that would make me "them" and I'm a big fan of "us." Anyway - you can't pad your page reads by sneak-bundling. They just won't read it all.


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## Jericho

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Unless my joke about Amazon using unpaid interns to write the Kindle software has a basis in fact, the KU IT team should already have test beds available. It should not take them ten minutes to verify or disprove the reports that must be flooding in to them.


Let's hope this _is not_, and _is_ the case.



Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What's probably holding things up is the reluctance of management to okay doing this the right way, viz.: to use a KENPC-page-read bit table that marks pages read _individually_, and that, upon close of book, counts the flagged pages and reports that _tally_ up to Amazon.


Would these pages be staggered or determinable for each page? for every 1,2,3, pages ... etc. or for every 5, 10, 15, pages ... etc.? If it was staggered would it account for interim pages or last flagged page?



Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Such a bit table, located as ASCII-hex in, say, html comments in the book, would have to be heavily encrypted and include encryption nulls (NOT the same thing as Hex 00's) to keep hackers from just setting a few bits and opening and closing a volume. But, that would be just a bit of ugly code and not actually that difficult. Also, if the coding is good enough, setting a page flag might even mean UN-setting a bit. Additionally, checksums could be hidden in the flags table to detect alteration attempts, which would result in immediate account cancellation.


This could be an interesting embed deterrent for tampering while at the same time allowing for accuracy.



Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What the KU team evidently lacked was an analyst with some years of practical application experience, and we're seeing the result.


With all of KU's presumable access to top-notch/top-tier programmers with massive coding skills a beta test of this sort would/should've alleviated this potentiality earlier than at this point. (which you rightfully alluded to earlier)

It's so far out of hand at this point, with the denying of data to prove its (page read issue) existence, that a few notes stating "we're aware of it and we're working on a fix) could've alleviated many author's concerns for the time being. The speculation they prefer it this way, is a little dubious and doubtful and counterintuitive to creating the platform at all.



Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> As to creating a "Find-Your-Fate" type of e-book, I can't see how that would violate any kind of TOS clause, but I'm not KDP.


Maybe others can also chime in on this part as well. It may be a good test on the author end as a way to test information and work with, rather than, against KU IT.


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## Jericho

7seasonsgirl said:


> Result, I didn't publish my new book and I'm waiting since the beginning of September to see if things change. I depend on my KU reads and if they don't work properly there's no way I publish. It would be like I worked for months for nothing. I have statistics for all my books for each country and for more than a year.
> It's easy not to spot the problem when you sell a lot and this is why I can't see the 1 page reads or the 12 pages etc. when my books had more than 40000 reads in a month, but I know it happens for all my books.
> 
> That's all I can say for now, I try to check the numbers from different angles but it takes time. In any case I won't promote any book righ now, I feel like my last promotion caused more harm than good.


Totally understand this position. I've abstained from publishing for a couple of weeks now, not because I want to, but I know for my account specifically, I am not receiving correct earnings because I've tested it. The incorrect payment can be a major deterrent for authors uploading further projects from what I've heard and experienced myself.

I have a question for you, do you have a clickable Table of Contents at the back of your book? Not one that hyperlinks from the beginning to cheat the system, but one placed there in the formatting process?

There's video online that suggest this is one culprit in the "page read issue" and not a result of the "page flip" result many have commented on. Trying to troubleshoot. Thanks.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Jericho

Gator said:


> I'm not saying there aren't multiple problems with counting page reads. I'm saying, in aggregate, Amazon didn't view the September numbers as alarming because they didn't significantly diverge from expectations.


Good point. However, depending on what the author's take home is a 4.35% drop can be quite a bit. Also as we've seen the 4.35% drop is not uniform. There are authors who are reporting as much as a 50% drop on their accounts. Which should be a cause for concern KU, but I understand why you stated it wouldn't send up red flags to KU.

I wonder what the percentage of those affected vs. unaffected authors are, and the percentage of those who've noticed and have reported it to KU vs. those who noticed and assumed it was a normal occurrence?

It also makes me wonder how a 4.35% drop universally is possible when individual authors are reporting such higher drops? Are those page reads, as some have queried, being replaced at a later time, or are they weirdly being attributed to other authors?

I had one title (50 kenp) that was published on Aug. 31 and had 3 sales between Sept. 2-8 (no sales since) and absolutley zero reads until (Sept. 11 at 89 page reads) then zero again until (Oct. 2 at 49 page reads) then zero again until, (Oct. 20 with 500 page reads). The same exact day I released a novel in a completely different pen name. Since then, back to zero on that particular title where it remains until today. Very odd. Those two titles are not even remotely close to being in the same genre, pen name, or interest. It's wonky wonk screwy for sure.


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## TellNotShow

RedAlert said:


> I read your post several times. What is it that those authors you have reported have done wrong? I am still soaking up "how to do things." It seems like you are complaining that certain authors have added whole books(?) at the end of a book? Or, "here are my other books?" Are you saying that this is a way around whatever restrictions there are on bundles? Because, to me, if an author wants to give away a book or two by including them in a book, it's their business. Is this against TOS?
> Also, however an author speaks to his/her readers is also personal business practice.
> 
> I am asking because I am honestly confused. You stated that you have reported such authors. For what, again? Even trad pubbed books have "here are my other books" pages. How many times have noobies been advised to put previews in the back of a book? I've seen trad pubbed books with preview chapters in the back.
> 
> This isn't what I plan to do, but other authors have the right to style their work in the way they think they can market. I would consider such a concoction of books to be a weird bundle of sorts. What's wrong with that?
> 
> I've seen trad pubbed books with pages of even different authors' books in the back. That's part of the publishing house's idea of marketing. I expect one day to see mention of someone else's book in the back of an indie book, without a review to make it against TOS. Would that also be wrong?
> 
> I have noticed that the indie world wants to model itself after trad pub, whereas the beauty of being indie is the freedom to be innovative. But, learning how to market is really hard, and emulation is not a bad start, I guess.


I see that others have done a great job of answering your questions, and better than I could have too. But I would like to say, don't be so quick to decide not to put previews of your next book in the back of the books you publish. Particularly if you write a series, this is a great marketing tactic, especially if the next book starts strongly - it can hook readers immediately, and help you sell more books. And it's not scammy in any way - there's a big difference between padding a book with extra novels to up the KENPC, and putting the beginning of your next book in for people to sample it and spark their interest.


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## PearlEarringLady

Atlantisatheart said:


> Yep, I'm in the UK and I'm seeing all this too. I first noticed it in July. The KU reads finishing at 2am is just strange - it's always been at 5am and my book sales seem to struggle to get through around the same time. That's probably prime time in the US for purchases and reads too - when my sales and reads used to shoot right up there and now they don't


I've noticed this, too. The last few days I've been jet-lagged, so I've been getting up at 4-5 am, and previously I'd expect to see sales drifting in right up to 8 or even 9am UK-time. Now - nothing.

But then, maybe my sales are just rubbish at the moment anyway. I honestly can't tell if the apparent wonkiness I see in my own numbers is because something is broken or it's just normal variation. That's why it's so important that those who've seen BIG discrepancies keep posting about them.


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## Jericho

7seasonsgirl said:


> These are the only links I have and while I'm writing I now wonder if for example someone clicks to my Facebook page or any other link before closing the book if it influences the page reads. Another thing to check I guess.


This is why I asked. I'm wondering if it is a TOC issue or a link issue, because I know many authors link to different things in their books. It'd be interesting to test this and see if clicking the link outside of a book causes a "1 page read" result. I know for a fact the TOC in the back of the book will cause this result, but there seems to be many different causes for this page read issue. This is why I suggested a master list of tests and results.

If you test it please post your results or PM me. I'd be very interested in knowing if this creates this outcome.


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## Jericho

PaulineMRoss said:


> I've noticed this, too. The last few days I've been jet-lagged, so I've been getting up at 4-5 am, and previously I'd expect to see sales drifting in right up to 8 or even 9am UK-time. Now - nothing.
> 
> But then, maybe my sales are just rubbish at the moment anyway. I honestly can't tell if the apparent wonkiness I see in my own numbers is because something is broken or it's just normal variation. That's why it's so important that those who've seen BIG discrepancies keep posting about them.


Agreed. Many authors are noting the discrepancies, but then feel like it's a personal reflection of their work, when in fact this may not be the case at all. There's something else to it for a lot of instances. I say this without knowing your work obviously, but I too have noticed the stagnation of the page reads and sales for more than a few hours at a time, sometimes an entire day, even on days I've tested my own titles and then know exactly how many pages should be showing up in the display. It's vitally important for this discussion to stay focused and continue for this very reason.


----------



## Gator

Jericho said:


> It also makes me wonder how a 4.35% drop universally is possible when individual authors are reporting such higher drops?


I think it's because the scammers' efforts are so pervasive (and successful!) that they're masking the magnitude of the honest KDP Select publishers' losses.


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## Jericho

Gator said:


> I think it's because the scammers' efforts are so pervasive (and successful!) that they're masking the magnitude of the honest KDP Select publishers' losses.


With those books comprising of mainly two paragraphs repeated over and over, I personally have doubts as to whether this is responsible for such a large discrepancy in page reads. I also wonder how long someone would read a book like that before closing it, as the look inside feature demonstrates its flaw quite readily.

They've since been removed, or at least a large portion of the ones listed here on kboards and as a reaction, the "page read" results should've snapped back to pre-Sept. normality if that was a viable culprit. The movers and shakers list, for now at least, seems to be returned to its previous author status consistency. Also, I wonder how long they could've been there without drawing attention? Once kboards caught wind of it, for example, they were gone in a flash. To my thinking, there's probably another reason behind this mild 4.35% drop reporting, when authors are noticing major disruptions (though I won't speculate as to what that may be). But time will tell if that proves correct or not ....


----------



## Jericho

7seasonsgirl said:


> Sorry I don't have KU. I monitor everything else but I can't test my books with KU.
> 
> As for the page reads updates, the reason I know they stop around 2 o'clock is that immediately my new day starts. Example, yesterday the account for the 1st november was at 5213 at 2 o'clock and at 2h10 I had already 440 pages for the 2 november. Today, my account for the 2 november was at 4356 at two o'clock when I started working and my new day had already 47 pages at 2h15. Until now the amount for the 2 didn't change, it doesn't change anymore, and the amount of the 3 november has gone up to 101, 134, 186, 212. You can see how small numbers are added each time. Then it can go without change for a long time, and add a bigger amount of pages or continue to add small numbers all day. I haven't yet noticed a pattern there.


I've seen similar reporting myself, not exactly the same numbers, but the stagnation and hiccuping of page read numbers for sure, as well as the jump in change of times. Some posters here on boards have posited it is the GST that Amazon uses for their time zone. However, I've had no movement in page reads for about nine or ten hours, then fifteen seconds into 12am my time, and boom, I have more page reads reported than the entire previous day. Wonky wonk.


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## B.A. Spangler

Sadly, I believe a few of my books have fallen victim to whatever this flip-flop, page-turning, non-reporting thing is.
After a successful ad launch, I had a few days of 0 page reads. Finally, asked a few review readers with KU to give it a test and even tested it myself. Zero page reads.
In my test, I flipped through to the end of the book, closed the book, returning to my kindle library. The next day, I opened the book in the online reader. The online reader correctly placed me at the furthest page read. The page location was known but the KU pages were never recorded.

I'm the parwniest of prawns, but still deserve credit for pages read in exchange for the exclusivity given to KDP.

I've seen enough evidence with my books to recognize the KU page read reporting is broken. It's time to request a leave of KDP and return to wide.


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## Gator

Jericho said:


> With those books comprising of mainly two paragraphs repeated over and over, I personally have doubts as to whether this is responsible for such a large discrepancy in page reads.


Sadly, that's only one of many methods the KU scammers use.



> I also wonder how long someone would read a book like that before closing it, as the look inside feature demonstrates its flaw quite readily.


No person need download or open the KU eBook. It's all bot activity doing the borrows and page reads.



> They've since been removed, or at least a large portion of the ones listed here on kboards and as a reaction, the "page read" results should've snapped back to pre-Sept. normality if that was a viable culprit. The movers and shakers list, for now at least, seems to be returned to its previous author status consistency. Also, I wonder how long they could've been there without drawing attention? Once kboards caught wind of it, for example, they were gone in a flash.


Those 50 Aesop's Fables scam eBooks were the product of only one scammer who demonstrated the capability of about 1,500 bots active for about 48 hours. Imagine a scammer who acted more discreetly, who used 1,000 of his 6,000 bots with their fake Amazon accounts and had 5 legitimate eBooks to publish. The bots would borrow each eBook, "read" the entire 500 KENP, close the eBook and later download the next eBook at a random time during the week. The 1,000 borrows spread out over a week wouldn't keep any of the eBooks on the "Movers and Shakers" list for long. At the end of the week, the scammer would unpublish the eBooks, then republish them with new ASINs, titles, and pen names and repeat the previous steps the following week with the next 1,000 bots.

That's 11.25 million pages read per month. At $0.0048 per page, that's $54,000 per month or $648,000 per year. Now imagine that scammer setting up 4 other members of his family and friends with the same scheme. Now imagine 10 scammers doing the same thing. That's 562.5 million KU pages read per month without being blatantly obvious to anyone not looking for them.

So only 10 scammers with "know-how" and 50 scam KDP accounts could grab 17.6% of September's total pages read.

The bad news is that there are probably a lot more than 10 scammers with "know-how" and 50 scam KDP accounts.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jericho said:


> Let's hope this _is not_, and _is_ the case.
> 
> Would these pages be staggered or determinable for each page? for every 1,2,3, pages ... etc. or for every 5, 10, 15, pages ... etc.? If it was staggered would it account for interim pages or last flagged page?


I think you may be confusing displayable pages with KENPC pages. KENPC pages are "standard candle" pages that are unrelated to actual viewed pages. Think of them as _zones_ in an e-title. Usually there are more KENPC pages than practical actual pages. E.g., my collection is 198 Kindle "pages" long (for customer estimate, though now overridden by the paperback page count), but has 312 KENPC "pages."

There would be an applicable bit for each of the 312 pages, in this example. (The actual bit table would be far larger, of course, and contain bunches of irrelevant bytes, and flagging a page as "read" might involve setting OR unsetting a bit.) Any time any part of one of these KENPC "zones" is displayed on a Kindle-type device, the bit for that zone would be affected. When the book is closed, the software would count up all affected zone bits and send that tally to Amazon.

So if, e.g., you had a collection of short stories, and you read story A on your Kindle, and it ran from pages 20 to 25 (KENPC zones 35 to 43, say) and then read story B from pages 60 to 70 (KENPC zones 88 to 103, say), at close of book the software would report 9 + 16, or 25 KENPC "pages" read.

Something like that would work.


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## jason2505

Gator said:


> Sadly, that's only one of many methods the KU scammers use.
> 
> No person need download or open the KU eBook. It's all bot activity doing the borrows and page reads.
> 
> Those 50 Aesop's Fables scam eBooks were the product of only one scammer who demonstrated the capability of about 1,500 bots active for about 48 hours. Imagine a scammer who acted more discreetly, who used 1,000 of his 6,000 bots with their fake Amazon accounts and had 5 legitimate eBooks to publish. The bots would borrow each eBook, "read" the entire 500 KENP, close the eBook and later download the next eBook at a random time during the week. The 1,000 borrows spread out over a week wouldn't keep any of the eBooks on the "Movers and Shakers" list for long. At the end of the week, the scammer would unpublish the eBooks, then republish them with new ASINs, titles, and pen names and repeat the previous steps the following week with the next 1,000 bots.
> 
> That's 11.25 million pages read per month. At $0.0048 per page, that's $54,000 per month or $648,000 per year. Now imagine that scammer setting up 4 other members of his family and friends with the same scheme. Now imagine 10 scammers doing the same thing. That's 562.5 million KU pages read per month without being blatantly obvious to anyone not looking for them.
> 
> So only 10 scammers with "know-how" and 50 scam KDP accounts could grab 17.6% of September's total pages read.
> 
> The bad news is that there are probably a lot more than 10 scammers with "know-how" and 50 scam KDP accounts.


Wouldn't that put him into the allstar bonus range and thus get KDPs attention?


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## KelliWolfe

Yes. The smart ones spread this out over a lot more publisher and subscriber accounts to keep the activity levels low so they don't attract attention.


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## B.A. Spangler

How many have found their books shorted on page reads and have been successful in leaving KDP upon request?


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## SandraMiller

I haven't done it, but it sounds like several have been successful. If I were to do that, I would send them a formally worded email, pointing out that you have demonstrated methods with which readers can consume your content through Kindle Unlimited and you will not be compensated. I would point out that this constitutes breach of contract and ask for all of my books to be released immediately. I know that approach was successful several pages back, and it seems reasonable to me. Your contract says you should be paid by page read, and they are demonstrably not doing that


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## Jericho

Gator said:


> So only 10 scammers with "know-how" and 50 scam KDP accounts could grab 17.6% of September's total pages read.
> 
> The bad news is that there are probably a lot more than 10 scammers with "know-how" and 50 scam KDP accounts.


Without actionable data to prove this is a reality, this is speculative at best. There's no proof that these "scammers" are operating in this way, this is simply imagining that they could, if so motivated.

This also does not take into account the "real-world, provable" drop in sales authors or having. Nor does it address how authors are seeing "1 page reads" across multiple genres and across multiple pen names. This is not speculation and requires no imagining. This "page read" issue is a reality, reported by _more than ten_ authors on this board alone. Those with the know-how of how their personal accounts react to things like "book launches", "promotions", "freebies", "page count estimations," and "holiday/summer variances".

Scammers can't and don't control that aspect of the problem, or what authors are themselves seeing and reporting as anomalies to the regular behavior of their accounts, no matter how many books they may launch and how many bots "may" read their pages or not.

The safe bet, to my mind, is there's something else causing this discrepancy. 48-hours of a scammer's delight is not enough to disrupt author's experiences dating back to July. Never the twain shall meet.

And as others have pointed out that type of behavior would be so egregious that it would attract Amazon's attention in more than just the months of Aug, Sep, and Oct.

Think about it this way, Amazon is suing fake reviewers (or threatening to) ... while at the same time not acknowledging that this "page read" is a real issue, and has always had scammers with no prosecutions to date. To my thinking, if they know about it, and can do anything to stop it, they do. Otherwise they disavow it as a possibility until further notice. Authors have given them data about the "page read" issue in real time and it is mainly ignored or denied. Scammers don't have anything to do with that type of behavior. So the discrepancy is most probably elsewhere.


----------



## Jericho

SandraMiller said:


> I haven't done it, but it sounds like several have been successful. If I were to do that, I would send them a formally worded email, pointing out that you have demonstrated methods with which readers can consume your content through Kindle Unlimited and you will not be compensated. I would point out that this constitutes breach of contract and ask for all of my books to be released immediately. I know that approach was successful several pages back, and it seems reasonable to me. Your contract says you should be paid by page read, and they are demonstrably not doing that


This is an important point. Specifically the breach portion. To my thinking, that is one reason why it is so important for a continued discussion of the "real world" realities of author discrepancies of the "page read" issue.


----------



## B.A. Spangler

SandraMiller said:


> I haven't done it, but it sounds like several have been successful. If I were to do that, I would send them a formally worded email, pointing out that you have demonstrated methods with which readers can consume your content through Kindle Unlimited and you will not be compensated. I would point out that this constitutes breach of contract and ask for all of my books to be released immediately. I know that approach was successful several pages back, and it seems reasonable to me. Your contract says you should be paid by page read, and they are demonstrably not doing that


thank you - bookmarked and will refer back if I decide to send in a request. I'm doing more tests, but certainly not seeing pages read when I know they have been.


----------



## David VanDyke

Jericho said:


> I've seen similar reporting myself, not exactly the same numbers, but the stagnation and hiccuping of page read numbers for sure, as well as the jump in change of times. Some posters here on boards have posited it is the GST that Amazon uses for their time zone. However, I've had no movement in page reads for about nine or ten hours, then fifteen seconds into 12am my time, and boom, I have more page reads reported than the entire previous day. Wonky wonk.


If you're anywhere to the west of GMT, and have your computer set to local time, you will see this every day, because the page reads will pause in your view from midnight GMT until midnight your time.

If midnight GMT is 6 p.m. your time, you will see no page reads from 6 until midnight your time. Then, right at midnight, you will see all the pages read in the last 6 hours.

Retail sales, however, seem to work off your local time, so you will see retail sales continue to rise until midnight, plus or minus a small statistical variance.

If you want your page reads to accrue smoothly, simply set your computer to GMT. This may cause other problems for you, such as email times inaccurately marked, but it will solve your page-read-jump problem.


----------



## 75845

Another imponderable to throw into the was there an overall drop in the page reads:  the readily scammable nature of KU may have seen a huge upsurge in scamming that hid a large downturn in the page reads on many but not all regular authors. We know that the nature of scams is that it is an arms race to try to gain some payment before Amazon closes the loophole or the accounts. Consequently the more organised scammers pull a new scam in big numbers to maximize profits in the short window that they have to make any profits with that particular scam. The longer that Amazon allows KU to be a scammable gravy train the more that it will attract the attention of those who know how to do crime properly and are looking for a convenient laundry.

The sharper among you will note that this means that the sidetrack into scammy books was not such a sidetrack after all, even if I am right in thinking that the chart topping scams were direct action activists trying to expose the dirty laundry that hides in the non charting basket.

There is also a lot of trust here in the statistics that big business is feeding you. A quick check in the media about recent scandals in the banking and automotive sectors should disavow you of such trust. Until a lawyer succeeds in discovery against Amazon or there is a whistle blower we are all just whistling in the wind while Amazon pipes its own music.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

UPDATE

For those of you who have been following the mini saga of my emails to KDP about _Bheki and the Magic Light_ page reads - I had a phone call from Executive Customer Relations . I was asked if the reader would be willing to share details of the device used so they could check that the device settings were correct. I have supplied the email address of the reader.
The agent was aware of the author forums concerning page read problems and reiterated their obvious policy that all was ok their end and she was only dealing with my particular problem.
I checked the ranking of Bheki and on the day the reader downloaded it the ranking shot from 2 million up to #143,016.


----------



## Jericho

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> UPDATE
> 
> For those of you who have been following the mini saga of my emails to KDP about _Bheki and the Magic Light_ page reads - I had a phone call from Executive Customer Relations . I was asked if the reader would be willing to share details of the device used so they could check that the device settings were correct. I have supplied the email address of the reader.
> The agent was aware of the author forums concerning page read problems and reiterated their obvious policy that all was ok their end and she was only dealing with my particular problem.
> I checked the ranking of Bheki and on the day the reader downloaded it the ranking shot from 2 million up to #143,016.


Congrats! That's fantastic news. Hope everything works out for you!


----------



## Gertie Kindle

David VanDyke said:


> If midnight GMT is 6 p.m. your time, you will see no page reads from 6 until midnight your time. Then, right at midnight, you will see all the pages read in the last 6 hours.
> your page-read-jump problem.


I was wondering about that. Thanks for the explanation.



Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> UPDATE
> 
> For those of you who have been following the mini saga of my emails to KDP about _Bheki and the Magic Light_ page reads - I had a phone call from Executive Customer Relations . I was asked if the reader would be willing to share details of the device used so they could check that the device settings were correct. I have supplied the email address of the reader.
> The agent was aware of the author forums concerning page read problems and reiterated their obvious policy that all was ok their end and she was only dealing with my particular problem.
> I checked the ranking of Bheki and on the day the reader downloaded it the ranking shot from 2 million up to #143,016.


At last, a baby step. Please keep us posted. It's interesting she pointed out that she was only working on your problem and is aware of the forum posts here and I'm sure many other forums.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> At last, a baby step. Please keep us posted. It's interesting she pointed out that she was only working on your problem and is aware of the forum posts here and I'm sure many other forums.


I will give you the updates when, and if, I get them.


----------



## Gator

jason2505 said:


> Wouldn't that put him into the allstar bonus range and thus get KDPs attention?


You're right to point that out. He'd need to use at least six pen names for each KDP account to stay under the radar.


----------



## RuthNestvold

B.A. Spangler said:


> How many have found their books shorted on page reads and have been successful in leaving KDP upon request?


They let me go when I mentioned breach of contract, since I wasn't being paid for pages read as they had stipulated. I think I posted the email that did the trick further upstream. It's on my blog for sure, where I wrote about my trials and tribulations last month.


----------



## B.A. Spangler

RuthNestvold said:


> They let me go when I mentioned breach of contract, since I wasn't being paid for pages read as they had stipulated. I think I posted the email that did the trick further upstream. It's on my blog for sure, where I wrote about my trials and tribulations last month.


Appreciate it. I heard back from KDP and am interested to see where they go with this. If a fix doesn't come soon, I've nothing to lose going wide.


----------



## Gator

Jericho said:


> Without actionable data to prove this is a reality, this is speculative at best. There's no proof that these "scammers" are operating in this way,


I'm sorry you haven't seen the proof yourself, but I have, due to past experience. I was once a technical business consultant for a web site that was going to be the next Facebook. I was hired only after they were attacked by scammers, unfortunately. I knew what the scammers were capable of (and they showed me a few new tricks, too). The business ignored my technical advice on how to prevent the scammers from generating false online activities and grabbing the income. Much as Amazon has been doing with KU, the business did the absolute minimum for what they thought would allow them to prevent or catch the scammers. They were so naive that they were always two steps behind the scammers in reaction mode, not prevention mode.

The web site went out of business in just a few short months. That's not going to happen to Amazon because the burden of the losses is completely on the shoulders of those earning the income from the monthly Global Fund.



> this is simply imagining that they could, if so motivated.


Tens of thousands of dollars a month, every month, is *huge* motivation. Huge.



> This also does not take into account the "real-world, provable" drop in sales authors or having. Nor does it address how authors are seeing "1 page reads" across multiple genres and across multiple pen names. This is not speculation and requires no imagining. This "page read" issue is a reality, reported by _more than ten_ authors on this board alone. Those with the know-how of how their personal accounts react to things like "book launches", "promotions", "freebies", "page count estimations," and "holiday/summer variances".
> 
> Scammers can't and don't control that aspect of the problem, or what authors are themselves seeing and reporting as anomalies to the regular behavior of their accounts, no matter how many books they may launch and how many bots "may" read their pages or not.


What I mean by "scams so pervasive, they mask the KDP publishers' losses" is that we could have had the exact same page read rate in September as we had in August (111.4 million page reads per day), and, due to the "page-flip" problem, "backtrack after finishing the eBook" problem, Amazon's latest tactics to eliminate scammers, possible bugs in updates to Kindle devices and apps problems, possible bugs in the new Amazon Prime Unlimited Reading program, possible bugs in KU's data syncs, and any other bugs we haven't mentioned yet, we could have had 70,000 KDP pubishers, each missing an average of more than 10,000 pages read (or 7,000 KDP pubishers, each missing an average of more than 100,000 pages read) during the month of September. Those KDP publishers could have had an average 50% loss in pages read.

The missing 707.9 million pages read, replaced by the fake 562.5 million pages read produced by the scammers in the scenario I described earlier, would show Amazon that September only had 4.35% fewer page reads per day than August did. In other words, nothing for Amazon to worry about, because that's within the range they expect in a non-initial growth phase.


----------



## Jericho

Gator said:


> I'm sorry you haven't seen the proof yourself,


It's not that _I alone_ haven't seen the proof of this happening with Amazon as it was posited. It's that _no one_ has. Unless they work for Amazon or have direct information from Amazon specifically.



Gator said:


> Tens of thousands of dollars a month, every month, is *huge* motivation. Huge.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as speculation is fair game, and there are those who have an interest in walls of numerical information, what about the speculative numerical breakdown of losses to authors?
> 
> 
> 
> Gator said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, nothing for Amazon to worry about, because that's within the range they expect in a non-initial growth phase.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand Amazon doesn't have anything to worry about, but what about the authors who are suffering real-world, real-time losses that are being denied and remain unaccounted for?
> 
> Why should Authors worry so much about what scammers are doing? They have no idea who those scammers are. No authority to stop them. Or knowledge on how to stop them (other than reporting them). No knowledge of the true damages or losses Amazon has suffered due to the actions of a speculative few? No data to support speculative estimates. Etc...?
> 
> Why should they spend their time, as an author, concerning themselves with those losses when they have their own losses, real unrecovered losses _for the real work they've already done_ and the work they've willingly submitted to Amazon _under Amazon's stipulations and terms_ which they are upholding on their end per the terms of the agreement, in earnest, and working diligently to provide to a service that guaranteed them a certain rate for their products?
> 
> Scamming may be an issue. And it may offset some of the discrepancies; true (of course I would argue hardly more than a small fraction without actionable provable non-specualtive data suggesting otherwise).
> 
> However, as an author there's nothing to be done about it. There is something that needs to be done about the "page reads" issue that is blatantly ignored and denied. Authors can't do anything about an imaginary situation with ghosted phantom assailants. That's someone else's job. Authors didn't agree to a contract to work as fraud security agents _and_ provide content for the public at large for consumption. If that was the case, we should _all_ definitely be getting paid more.
> 
> Scammers are gonna scam. That's what scammers do. That's why Amazon employs fraud protection measures, and I'm assuming fraud protection insurance policies so that they are reimbursed the cost of those potential losses. What about the authors? What's their insurance policy reimbursement potentiality?
> 
> Bottom line is, authors are missing pages in their reporting, not speculatively, but in actual reality. As much as 50% in some reports. This reporting directly plays into Author payouts. The payouts are a result of efforts and products the authors provide to a service that benefits from those efforts and products, but one that also stipulates specific criteria so they are compensated for this work fairly. There's a discrepancy occurring that is going largely unaddressed. Scammers aren't making Amazon deny the "page read" issue. Nor are Scammers making Amazon purposefully and blatantly ignore data that suggests the actuality of these "page reads" are at a loss to the Author; not to Amazon, but at a loss to the content producers.
> 
> Amazon gets paid no matter what the loss is to the Author. Scammers don't have diddly-squat to do with that. Furthermore, when scammers are caught, guess what?, Amazon isn't out those losses for the most part. They can refuse payment to the scammers for books consumers paid for already. Books whose deposits are safely deposited into Amazon's coffers, that's a win for Amazon. They're still making money on the transaction fees for downloaded books, that goes into Amazon's coffers; another win. They still get exposure; yet another win. They still receive insurance reimbursements for those losses when they can prove it was beyond Amazon's control or knowledge or preventability; ding, ding, one more win for Amazon.
> 
> Authors are being told to kick bricks essentially every-time they receive this message, "We've looked at the data and can't find a systematic issue affecting your results. We apologize, but we just don't have any more information to offer." or any derivation thereof. Regardless of being provided data to the contrary.
> 
> On top of that, they're aware a problem exists and are choosing to help specific authors, individually, rather than all of those who are attributing "1 page reads" to their overall payout.
> 
> What is the speculation of losses to the authors? Why is this so rarely a point of contention and focus?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Jericho

Gator said:


> The missing 707.9 million pages read, replaced by the fake 562.5 million pages read produced by the scammers in the scenario I described earlier, would show Amazon that September only had 4.35% fewer page reads per day than August did. In other words, nothing for Amazon to worry about, because that's within the range they expect in a non-initial growth phase.


Last thing I'll mention about this scammers "possibility." None of those numbers being offered are _factual_. They're all guesses. Sure, they may seem like educated guesses, and that's interesting and all, but they're not real numbers. They're all guesses that make it seem like a plausible reason for the gap slippage. Nothing about those numbers are real. They're all speculative. All of them. We don't know that 562.5 million pages are fake reads anymore than we know that 707.9 million pages are the real number of missing pages for author's uploaded products. It looks cool, and _sounds_ authoritative, but it's not _real_. Plain and simple. My guess is as good as anyone's at this point. These are just numbers. Could it be a good guess, sure, I'll contend there's some interesting points being made and it's certainly a fun speculation topic. Unfortunately, the only thing we know for sure is that scammers always scam Amazon, or try to. And Authors in this program are not getting accurate page reads, which ultimately diminishes their pay.


----------



## BloodHound

Reading some of the latter posts I'm becoming more and more convinced that what is going on is exactly what Amazon intends to be taking place, even though many of the assumptions about what's causing it may be totally incorrect. Amazon without question has done something to the algo and page read system that is affecting the bottom line of many legitimate authors. Plus its not hurting Amazon one bit and it's apparent from their response they couldn't give one iota. Amazon is balancing the books with regard to scammers squarely on the back of legitimate authors and it's disgusting,  Since all my books are so heavily hyperlinked I've probably lost more money than I first imagined. The only alternative is to withdraw Nov 17 from KU which limits my ability to advertise my other books. I certainly though don't intend to keep giving Amazon free untraceable money.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Jericho said:


> Last thing I'll mention about this scammers "possibility." None of those numbers being offered are _factual_. They're all guesses. Sure, they may seem like educated guesses, and that's interesting and all, but they're not real numbers. They're all guesses that make it seem like a plausible reason for the gap slippage. Nothing about those numbers are real. They're all speculative. All of them. We don't know that 562.5 million pages are fake reads anymore than we know that 707.9 million pages are the real number of missing pages for author's uploaded products. It looks cool, and _sounds_ authoritative, but it's not _real_. Plain and simple. My guess is as good as anyone's at this point. These are just numbers. Could it be a good guess, sure, I'll contend there's some interesting points being made and it's certainly a fun speculation topic. Unfortunately, the only thing we know for sure is that scammers always scam Amazon, or try to. And Authors in this program are not getting accurate page reads, which ultimately diminishes their pay.


Except that we know for a fact that they have been able to get All Stars bonuses in the past. So we know that it's real and we know that it's significant. How much so, I seriously doubt whether even Amazon can say for sure. But given the number of scam books which have been pointed out over the past several months by people here on kboards, it's _significant_. Because those are just the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## Going Incognito

BloodHound said:


> Reading some of the latter posts I'm becoming more and more convinced that what is going on is exactly what Amazon intends to be taking place, even though many of the assumptions about what's causing it may be totally incorrect. Amazon without question has done something to the algo and page read system that is affecting the bottom line of many legitimate authors. Plus its not hurting Amazon one bit and it's apparent from their response they couldn't give one iota. Amazon is balancing the books with regard to scammers squarely on the back of legitimate authors and it's disgusting, Since all my books are so heavily hyperlinked I've probably lost more money than I first imagined. The only alternative is to withdraw Nov 17 from KU which limits my ability to advertise my other books. I certainly though don't intend to keep giving Amazon free untraceable money.


This. So much this.


----------



## Jericho

KelliWolfe said:


> Except that we know for a fact that they have been able to get All Stars bonuses in the past. So we know that it's real and we know that it's significant. How much so, I seriously doubt whether even Amazon can say for sure. But given the number of scam books which have been pointed out over the past several months by people here on kboards, it's _significant_. Because those are just the tip of the iceberg.


Let's look at those hypothetical numbers and see which one plays into our payout as authors more: 707.9 million missing page reads creditable to authors, but unaccounted for, multiply that by $0.0049 payout per page, that equals, 707.9*.0049 = $3,468,710 right? Now let's look at the other number 562.5 (totally made up page reads, like the first number, but whatever) 562.5 * $0.0049 = $2,756,250 right?

One figure, $3,468,710, is taken straight from Author's pockets. The other figure, $2,756,250, is taken from Amazon's pocket and potentially (but probably not) given to scammers.

As an Author, my concern would be primarily with the first figure. The $3,468,710, I'm not getting for my efforts that created the uploaded products, that Amazon has already made (x) amount from, and deposited in their bank accounts safe and sound.

Rather than the $2,756,250 Amazon is insured for, and is probably not paying out to scammers in full. And if they are, again, it's insured. So if they manage to get the coveted All Star Bonuses, there's little I can do about that, it's already done.

Unlike the author's funds that are missing that have yet to be addressed and repaid.

If they do pay the scammers, aside from being insured, they're probably paying out only a fraction of that, after doing what they claim when they say, "We continue to regularly audit and monitor pages read results" and would most likely find this anomaly in the 60-day grace period it takes to receive a payout.

For this reason, to my thinking, concerning myself with what scammers do to Amazon, which is so far out of my control, both in actions on Amazon's behalf, and for what actions Amazon takes against the scammers, that it's a distraction from the real issue, my missing $3,468,710 for unattributed page reads.

And I personally liken focusing so much energy about that issue: 1. in a thread dedicated to page reads information (where I'm sure there's a scammer thread somewhere), and 2. over sympathy for the authors who are missing funds due to the faulty system; to being an apologist for Amazon. Basically, saying it's okay Authors are not getting fairly compensated for their products sold through Amazon because, you know, scammers.

To put it another way, if I was in a Vegas casino and I won $3,468,710 playing black jack at one table. Then I went to collect my money while some other schmo, I don't know, never met, and never saw, and had no contact with, "scammed" the casino for $2,756,250 playing black jack at a different table then went to a different little window to collect, I'd expect the Casino bosses or security or whoever to break the schmo's legs when they found out, and give me my payout fair and square. Not the other way around. And once I did collect, I'd probably hit the buffet, then return to the black jack table to do it all over again, because I'm an addict like that. I love the rush.


----------



## Gator

Jericho said:


> It's not that _I alone_ haven't seen the proof of this happening with Amazon as it was posited. It's that _no one_ has. Unless they work for Amazon or have direct information from Amazon specifically.


The day I was hired as a consultant for that other company, I told the company owner I knew his management team had fired the original IT subcontractors from India and subcontracted another IT team in China to start handling the web site exactly 11 days before.

I'd never met anyone in the company, the management team, or the subcontractors previously, nor did I have access to their servers or computers for data management or contract agreements, so the owner was surprised at my assertion.

"How did you know that? You couldn't possibly know that! It's not public knowledge."

People who handle computers leave fingerprints. The scammers scamming KU leave fingerprints, too. Training or experience will tell you many things a private company is unwilling to reveal publicly.



> I understand Amazon doesn't have anything to worry about, but what about the authors who are suffering real-world, real-time losses that are being denied and remain unaccounted for?
> 
> Why should Authors worry so much about what scammers are doing?
> ...
> Scamming may be an issue.


For that other company I mentioned, in the beginning, the scammers were a minor, but annoying, problem. By not designing the web site from the start to block the scammers and by not putting in the necessary time and effort to control the scams later, the IT teams and management were quickly spending more than 90% of their days dealing with the scammers instead of doing their jobs to improve, maintain, and run the web site.

Amazon has set aside a very finite amount of resources to provide for the Kindle platform, including KU. If Amazon uses these resources to deal with the scammers, that leaves little or no time for Amazon to deal with KDP publishers' problems. Tell me, are KDP publishers feeling ignored by Amazon when they have problems and is Amazon taking excessive amounts of time to fix even simple things? Perhaps it's because Amazon KDP IT employees are so overwhelmed, they have little time available for KDP publishers these days. 'Cause, ya know, scamming may be an issue.



> And it may offset some of the discrepancies; true (of course I would argue hardly more than a small fraction without actionable provable non-specualtive data suggesting otherwise).


Considering how many bots it would take to get 10 eBooks to #56 through #66 sales rank in the Kindle Store in one day (climbing in 11 consecutive slots at every step), and the other 40 eBooks in consecutive sales rank slots that improved from the upper 400s to the mid-300s to the upper 200s to the lower 200s in just the few hours I was watching, we have an alarming pattern of evidence. In case you're wondering, this would require bots operating about 1,500 KU accounts to download the eBooks and read the pages.

This first group of 40 eBooks was published on Oct. 26th, the second group of 10 eBooks on Oct. 27th, with no sales or borrows until they went into action this weekend. All contained two repeating paragraphs of Aesop's Fables and were priced at $9.99. The file sizes were each 5 to 10 MB, meaning the publisher intended to get the full 3,000 max page reads for each eBook. The groups of eBooks had pen names for exactly five titles each.

This is provable, non-speculative data indicating the capabilities of a single KU scammer or a few scammers working in tandem with the same script. The hypothetical scenario I described earlier isn't using real numbers: It's just an example of the magnitude possible if several scammers were operating their thousands of bots, but more discreetly.



> However, as an author there's nothing to be done about it.


Nothing? Think like Jeff Bezos; it'll come to you.



> What is the speculation of losses to the authors? Why is this so rarely a point of contention and focus?


Since Amazon software doesn't actually count pages, it's doubtful even Amazon knows.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## 56139

Atlantisatheart said:


> So, If Amazon doesn't know then what you're actually saying is we aren't getting those pages back and we should just suck it up and wait for the Amazon to get around to realising that there are glitches and problems and fixing them, and in the meantime we're just going to have to bend over and take it?
> 
> Or am I missing something?


I think this is KU3. They're not trying to fix it - they designed it this way. Maybe they will make some changes early next spring if people keep complaining. But major overhauls of this system happen very slowly and that's probably what they are looking at. In fact, I'd bet they are really out of ideas of how to prevent scammers at the moment so they are taking the do-nothing approach. Just let the complainers talk themselves to death and it will die. They hope, anyway.

But sales are down everywhere. I know enough people on the USA and NYT list these past few weeks to understand what kind of numbers are needed to make them. I was on the USA list three weeks ago and I know what I sold. The list threshold is low, thus, sales are down.


----------



## Gator

Atlantisatheart said:


> So, If Amazon doesn't know then what you're actually saying is we aren't getting those pages back and we should just suck it up and wait for the Amazon to get around to realising that there are glitches and problems and fixing them, and in the meantime we're just going to have to bend over and take it?
> 
> Or am I missing something?


You say you're technologically challenged, but I'd say you know exactly how things work!


----------



## 555aaa

Jericho said:


> Last thing I'll mention about this scammers "possibility." None of those numbers being offered are _factual_. They're all guesses. Sure, they may seem like educated guesses, and that's interesting and all, but they're not real numbers. They're all guesses that make it seem like a plausible reason for the gap slippage. Nothing about those numbers are real. They're all speculative. All of them. We don't know that 562.5 million pages are fake reads anymore than we know that 707.9 million pages are the real number of missing pages for author's uploaded products. It looks cool, and _sounds_ authoritative, but it's not _real_. Plain and simple. My guess is as good as anyone's at this point. These are just numbers. Could it be a good guess, sure, I'll contend there's some interesting points being made and it's certainly a fun speculation topic. Unfortunately, the only thing we know for sure is that scammers always scam Amazon, or try to. And Authors in this program are not getting accurate page reads, which ultimately diminishes their pay.


Well, using data from AuthorEarnings and other sales data which has been published here and on the AE report spreadsheets, it's pretty clear that the little scamlet we had over the weekend was something like 50 million page reads in a day or two, which is about half the average daily page reads across KU.

It's possible that between the deliberately authored scam books and shady promo sites, a significant fraction of the total page reads in KU doesn't come from actual readers.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## Jericho

ECR ignored this and didn't respond when it was sent to them. Maybe some are correct that they don't care and are not interested in a fix, so, I'm posting it here so other authors can see one version that can cause a "1 page read". There are other videos with other variances to be released at a later date.

Scammers can't cause this, AMAZONPAGEREADTEST_AND_RESULTS


----------



## TellNotShow

Jericho said:


> ECR ignored this and didn't respond when it was sent to them. Maybe some are correct that they don't care and are not interested in a fix, so, I'm posting it here so other authors can see one version that can cause a "1 page read". There are other videos with other variances to be released at a later date.
> 
> Scammers can't cause this, AMAZONPAGEREADTEST_AND_RESULTS


The youtube video is set to private


----------



## Jericho

Jericho said:


> ECR ignored this and didn't respond when it was sent to them. Maybe some are correct that they don't care and are not interested in a fix, so, I'm posting it here so other authors can see one version that can cause a "1 page read". There are other videos with other variances to be released at a later date.
> 
> Scammers can't cause this, AMAZONPAGEREADTEST_AND_RESULTS





TellNotShow said:


> The youtube video is set to private


Should be fixed now.


----------



## 75845

555aaa said:


> Well, using data from AuthorEarnings and other sales data which has been published here and on the AE report spreadsheets, it's pretty clear that the little scamlet we had over the weekend was something like 50 million page reads in a day or two, which is about half the average daily page reads across KU.
> 
> It's possible that between the deliberately authored scam books and shady promo sites, a significant fraction of the total page reads in KU doesn't come from actual readers.


I'm afraid that is just plucking figures out of the air. Author Earnings makes a rough and ready guess at sales to KU earnings ratios despite page reads probably not factoring into rank. Direct action activists could set bots to download but not read books and they could get their protest ware at the top of the chart without being accused of earning filthy capitalist lucre (setting the price $9.99 helps). If Amazon ranking tells you anything about page reads its in a formula that no-one knows. Author Earnings will tell you nothing at all about page reads. Amazon will tell you nothing about anything.


----------



## jason2505

Jericho said:


> ECR ignored this and didn't respond when it was sent to them. Maybe some are correct that they don't care and are not interested in a fix, so, I'm posting it here so other authors can see one version that can cause a "1 page read". There are other videos with other variances to be released at a later date.
> 
> Scammers can't cause this, AMAZONPAGEREADTEST_AND_RESULTS


Did you send this to kdp? I mean, how much more obvious can the glitch get?


----------



## KelliWolfe

The scammer issue is made more complex by the fact that most of them probably have their bots set up to read a number of legitimate books as well in order to hide their activities by mimicking real reader behavior and not leaving easily identifiable patterns. It doesn't cost them anything except a little time, and if it can disguise them long enough to get a payout then it's well worth that.


----------



## Acrocanthosaurus

Jericho said:


> ECR ignored this and didn't respond when it was sent to them. Maybe some are correct that they don't care and are not interested in a fix, so, I'm posting it here so other authors can see one version that can cause a "1 page read". There are other videos with other variances to be released at a later date.
> 
> Scammers can't cause this, AMAZONPAGEREADTEST_AND_RESULTS


They seriously just ignored video proof if page reads going uncounted?

Did they not reply at all?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Fixed. I was able to watch it. Hope Amazon also watch it.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

WasAnn said:


> When I was done and sitting there with all those charts and sheets, all I kept thinking was that this was A/B testing. I can't prove it, but you're stuck with two lumps of stuff that are very different. An A pile and a B pile.
> 
> I think you're right and this is A/B testing. I think the methodology for choosing who goes into which pile isn't something I can tease out (maybe server based, maybe simple split), but everything lines up far too neatly into two camps for it not to be a split.
> 
> What I'm wondering is...which is the one giving them the results they'll like and use. Is it those who are negatively impacted or those who aren't?


Yup. In an earlier comment I posited that maybe authors are being split into two groups--one getting nailed with the new algorithm and the rest still on the old method. The distinction could be based on something as simple as a hash count of the writer's last name.

With the requirement that a work has to be in KU in order for you to use AMS ads BEING LIFTED, one of the last reasons for staying in KU is gone. Unless Amazon fixes this, I'm outta KU and have already unchecked the auto-renew flags.

AND ... regarding A/B testing:

IF this testing had been set up by an experienced analyst and not a graduate of Mr. Philpott's third-grade class, "Introduction to the Apple II," A/B testing would have been done THIS WAY:

1. The new algorithm (Method B) would have been added to the existing Kindle code (Method A), BUT
2. Both old and new algorithms for determining page counts would be active, and result in two values.
3. BOTH values would be reported to Amazon.
4. During the transition period, authors would continue to be paid based on the old algorithm (Method A).
5. Statistical analysis of the two values returned would be used to determine if Method B had any major shortcomings, or if there were bizarre differences in the results from Methods A and B.

THEN,

1. If Amazon decided that Method B was the way to go, they could decide this at the Amazon end; NO FURTHER DOWNLOADS to Kindles would be needed.
2. If Amazon decided that Method B sucked, Method A could continue to be used, AGAIN WITHOUT FURTHER DOWNLOADS.

If it turned out that method B was accepted, and then later a Method C was to be tried, that code would replace the outdated Method A and this testing procedure would be repeated.

If it turned out that method B was NOT accepted, then Method C could replace the Method B code and testing could resume with the new scenario.

Stuff like this would happen with decent systems analysis. Amazon: My rates are reasonable, but for you, $500/hour. Get in touch.


----------



## S.R.

Jericho said:


> ECR ignored this and didn't respond when it was sent to them. Maybe some are correct that they don't care and are not interested in a fix, so, I'm posting it here so other authors can see one version that can cause a "1 page read". There are other videos with other variances to be released at a later date.
> 
> Scammers can't cause this, AMAZONPAGEREADTEST_AND_RESULTS


Nice to capture it on video! Just to add another data point since you mentioned that your book didn't have PageFlip enabled and had the TOC at the back that you used to jump back to the front of the book...

The book I tested (results quite a few pages back in this thread) does have PageFlip and the TOC is in the front. I read using the Kindle app on my iPad and on books with PageFlip I have to go into that mode to navigate (other than standard swiping pages forward or back while reading). Anyway, as soon as I tap the screen, it jumps into PageFlip mode and down in the lower left corner there's a small square icon formed with dots (not sure what it's called). Tapping it displays even more pages per screen and more navigation options. That's how I navigated back to the cover after reading to the end of my test book. Navigating from the last page of the book to the cover before closing the book resulted in ZERO additional pages read (I should have received an additional 117 -- 130 total KENP with 13 read/registered in part one of the test).

I sent my test info to an ECR rep on 10/27 and so far have received no response/acknowledgment. Whether it's purposely being ignored, or I'm at the back of some overwhelming queue of complaints, there's no way to know. Time will tell, I suppose.

I think it's clear at this point, that any backward navigation before closing a book erases pages read in that session. Personally, I no longer believe it's a new issue (i.e. introduced with PageFlip), since it can be reproduced using a standard TOC. I think it's been there all along and only discovered now because of the intense investigation of what's behind the cause of the significant drop in page reads that some authors have experienced. I tend to believe, as has been mentioned, that there's a larger A/B test going on that hit some authors and not others...and that's where the big/recent discrepancies in pages are coming from. I believe everyone has lost pages due to Amazon not being able to count actual pages read. It seems they don't even capture furthest page read unless it's also, coincidentally, happens to be furthest page "closed."

As an author it's a pretty horrifying realization, but also as a KU reader it makes me feel a little sick. I wonder how many times I've unknowingly cheated an author out of getting paid? How many times have I gotten to the end of a book I really enjoyed and flipped back to the front to check out the list of other books by the author? Some of the time, certainly. Even once is too many.


----------



## KelliWolfe

SallyRose said:


> I think it's clear at this point, that any backward navigation before closing a book erases pages read in that session. Personally, I no longer believe it's a new issue (i.e. introduced with PageFlip), since it can be reproduced using a standard TOC. I think it's been there all along and only discovered now because of the intense investigation of what's behind the cause of the significant drop in page reads that some authors have experienced. I tend to believe, as has been mentioned, that there's a larger A/B test going on that hit some authors and not others...and that's where the big/recent discrepancies in pages are coming from. I believe everyone has lost pages due to Amazon not being able to count actual pages read. It seems they don't even capture furthest page read unless it's also, coincidentally, happens to be furthest page "closed."


It was pointed out to me earlier in the topic that this is not new. It was documented at least as far back as April.


----------



## S.R.

KelliWolfe said:


> It was pointed out to me earlier in the topic that this is not new. It was documented at least as far back as April.


Interesting - I must have missed the post about the April link. Getting hard to keep track of all of the info in this thread 

I don't have any way to prove it now, but I'd bet that if we could go back to the start of KU 2.0 and run these tests, we'd find the same result as today. The original 2.0 scammers showed that Amazon could only pick up last page read. It looks like a very simplistic/misguided view was used when deciding to roll out a program based on page reads, and it assumed that readers only progress front to back in a book and then close when finished or abandoned. Troubling for all authors, especially bad for nonfiction authors where jumping around topic to topic is the norm.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

Count me in the speculative camp that scamming on amazon is pervasive and a much bigger problem than we've been led to believe.  We know some scammers make millions. Last week's bit of hacktivism shed some light on how easily the system can be bled for money (and top 100 bestseller spots).

I'm a simple man who barely passed high-school algebra. So maths are not my strong point.  

But here's how I see the impact

+ Rampant scamming prompted Amazon to make Algorithm and ranking changes. 
+ Those changes impacted legitimate authors as well as scammers. 
+ Scammers adapted quickly - and are now being much more subtle. 
+ Scammers being more stealthy is artificially inflating the collective pages read. 
+ These inflated page reads are in turn masking the downturn in page reads that is occurring. 

I'm a member of a private authors group. This group has some chart-topping authors in it (I'm a prawn). A good percentage of these talented folks have experienced drops anywhere from 50% to 90% of their incomes. I can't name names....but these are people who are big in some genres.  They definitely are not making this up --- and they are the types who keep excessive watch of their historical data.  I've been around for a long time and I have no reason to lie about this.

Something fishy is going on.  And I believe it's due to Amazon sweeping two issues under the rug: 

+ How widespread/common page read scams are. 
+ Their automated measures to combat page read theft -- has had an unexpected impact on real authors.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Gentleman Zombie said:


> I'm a member of a private authors group. This group has some chart-topping authors in it (I'm a prawn). A good percentage of these talented folks have experienced drops anywhere from 50% to 90% of their incomes. I can't name names....but these are people who are big in some genres. They definitely are not making this up --- and they are the types who keep excessive watch of their historical data. I've been around for a long time and I have no reason to lie about this.


I don't think anyone here thinks they're making this up. It is also true that there are big sellers who also keep watch of their historical data who have not seen any drop at all (eg Amanda). There are many others who've had drops but can't say whether they're natural or not. In my private authors' group of around 35, only one reported a sizable drop and one reported a drop in *sales* but not pages read. So I'm inclined to agree with thoe who see this as split testing.

This is an important situation, and the more data is shared, the better chance there is of persuading Amazon to fix things quickly. Please ask your friends to keep reporting on developments.


----------



## CozyReads

A/B testing offers an easy explanation for why some authors are affected while others aren't. If it's true, that's further proof that Amazon could care less about indie authors and we're just a cog in their ever-churning wheel of profit. Nice to know that authors' livelihoods are possibly being jeopardized due to something like this. 

Sigh...all my KU renewal boxes are now unchecked.


----------



## Jericho

Jericho said:


> ECR ignored this and didn't respond when it was sent to them. Maybe some are correct that they don't care and are not interested in a fix, so, I'm posting it here so other authors can see one version that can cause a "1 page read". There are other videos with other variances to be released at a later date.
> 
> Scammers can't cause this, AMAZONPAGEREADTEST_AND_RESULTS





Acrocanthosaurus said:


> They seriously just ignored video proof if page reads going uncounted?
> 
> Did they not reply at all?


No they didn't reply. I sent them a slightly modified version, no big changes to the overall video. I have noticed though that they've tampered with my account some since this has got some attention, because I have books I never touch at the top of my bookshelf in KDP, as well as one from a dormant pen name.

*I've been informed the information in pink was incorrect and I highlighted it so myself and others may learn from my mistake.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Jericho said:


> I sent them a slightly modified version, no big changes to the overall video. I have noticed though that they've tampered with my account some since this has got some attention, because I have books I never touch at the top of my bookshelf in KDP, as well as one from a dormant pen name.


That doesn't mean anything. All of the books in your library are cycled through every three months and get jostled to the top of your library list. That's normal.


----------



## Jericho

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That doesn't mean anything. All of the books in your library are cycled through every three months and get jostled to the top of your library list. That's normal.


Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was strange because 1. it didn't happen to all the books for that pen name. 2. I've not experienced any cycling before on my account, and 3. the dormant pen name doesn't have a book up, it was an unpublished book (non active) no other books on that pen name.

And the only time it has happened to my account before, which ironically was the same exact book that's at the top of my bookshelf now was on 9/24, because I got a notification for a keyword issue where I'd mistakenly put the word "kindle" in a keyword as I copy and pasted without editing it. Which btw was only noticed because I changed the price to amazon's suggested price rather than much lower.

But that's helpful info I'll use moving forward. I wouldn't want to put out incorrect information.


----------



## Jericho

CozyReads said:


> Sigh...all my KU renewal boxes are now unchecked.


I'm torn as to the best course of action in this regard. To my thinking, if I were to remove myself from this program before they remedy the situation, then are they still entitled, per the contractual obligations of their TOS, to adjust the composition for accuracy according to an audit? Or are they relieved of any liability because of my voluntary severance from the program?

Kinda like if you get fired from your job, they owe you unemployment (in some states), but if you quit, well, then you quit, that's on you and they don't owe you jack. But then again, how much more in real earnings losses will I incur in the process?

I actually have faith Amazon will do the right thing here. I find it worthless on their part to purposefully build such an amazing platform with the goal to defraud and scam so many authors out of a few dollars here and there (even though it does amount to quite a lot in total). I'm of the belief that they've not responded to the data because the situation is so pervasive and they haven't figured it out yet, and so therefore are working on a solution before they admit to the problem.

Personally speaking, I think Amazon is providing a wonderful opportunity for many people and my _hope_ is that they will do right by the authors in this situation, and recover back earnings losses.

In my case, I've demonstrated many many instances to ECR this has occurred on my account. I've got other tests to share as well for later. However, for the ones that are related to the "1 page reads" or "lowered page reads" because the TOC in the back of the book there is concern as the TOC was not hyperlinked and unseen until the end of the book. I estimate that readers had to read through the entire book to get to the TOC. Which means I should be compensated at some point on good faith that those books were read in their entirety. This is of course outside the page flip issue, and backtrack issue, but it's a thought.

The curious thing about the "1 page read" and similar results, to me, is that the "look inside feature" covers many more pages than simply 1 page. I know this isn't attributed to the page reads during the borrow, but the concept that a reader would only read one page then shut of the book (in most occurrences) is outside my expectation of the norm. The reader, sees the cover, reads the blurb, and decides to borrow the title, in most cases. They are aware of the book for the first 10% (or somewhere around there). Then to only read one page and never return to the title again is strange behavior. While I'm sure this does happen on some occasions, it is far from normal reading behavior.

I only joined KDP, because I noticed an unusually high amount of returns in a short period of time where my guess is people were reading shorter works and returning them so they wouldn't be charged. I feel confident this is the case, because after I joined KDP, I've had only two returns in two months. Which is an understandable rate of return, from what I gather.


----------



## CassieL

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That doesn't mean anything. All of the books in your library are cycled through every three months and get jostled to the top of your library list. That's normal.


Actually I think that three-month cycling only happens for books in Select. I have some that are unpublished now but were in Select when I unpublished them that cycle to the top of the list but some that were wide when I unpublished them that don't. Essentially any change to the book cycles it to the top of your listing.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## tresero

I'm guessing this thread has run it's course. No news and Amazon seems to not care. 

If anyone hears anything from the RWA, please update us.

Thanks


----------



## Jericho

tresero said:


> I'm guessing this thread has run it's course. No news and Amazon seems to not care.
> 
> If anyone hears anything from the RWA, please update us.
> 
> Thanks


I've got a couple of other test videos I'm going to post soon. If anyone has any interest in that. Each one is a different variation that shows the disturbing results. Stay tuned.


----------



## jason2505

Jericho said:


> I've got a couple of other test videos I'm going to post soon. If anyone has any interest in that. Each one is a different variation that shows the disturbing results. Stay tuned.


I definitely am, as well as in KDPs response.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

jason2505 said:


> I definitely am, as well as in KDPs response.


I'm waiting to hear back after my phone call with KDP.


----------



## Cherise

Jericho said:


> I've got a couple of other test videos I'm going to post soon. If anyone has any interest in that. Each one is a different variation that shows the disturbing results. Stay tuned.


Make sure that any video link you send to Amazon has the correct privacy settings so they can view the video this time.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I'm waiting to hear back after my phone call with KDP.


Did the KDP folks promise you a "response by" date?

I've recently had several demonstrable jiggles in the ranking of my collection, with a subsequent grand total of 15 pages read. Were it a novel, and the novel truly sucked, I could see it as possible. But if you don't like one story in a collection (or antho), you try out one or two more. Ah well, I need to start getting my ducks in a row for when ol' T. Rex comes off KU. :/


----------



## Jericho

Cherise said:


> Make sure that any video link you send to Amazon has the correct privacy settings so they can view the video this time.


Great note! Will do. However, because I used a link tracker, I'm pretty certain they didn't even click on it. Could be wrong. But I set it up to make sure I could tell if they watched it or not. But I'll make absolutely certain I set it up correctly next time.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jericho said:


> Great note! Will do. However, because I used a link tracker, I'm pretty certain they didn't even click on it. Could be wrong. But I set it up to make sure I could tell if they watched it or not. But I'll make absolutely certain I set it up correctly next time.


Oh, just send them a tape. In Betamaxx.


----------



## Jericho

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Oh, just send them a tape. In Betamaxx.


I've been recording it on a reel-to-reel then downloading it to vinyl but only because the quality is superb to digital. Then I send it via snail mail, but it takes a lot of patience, positive reinforcement, and pinot to make this snail do anything quickly.


----------



## tresero

Jericho said:


> I've been recording it on a reel-to-reel then downloading it to vinyl but only because the quality is superb to digital. Then I send it via snail mail, but it takes a lot of patience, positive reinforcement, and pinot to make this snail do anything quickly.


You forgot the DA-88 to ADAT then DAT


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

tresero said:


> You forgot the DA-88 to ADAT then DAT


Oh, hell, let's go all the way and send the file in paper tape. 

(I'm glad I wasn't drinking when I read these last two messages.)


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Oh, hell, let's go all the way and send the file in paper tape.
> 
> (I'm glad I wasn't drinking when I read these last two messages.)


No. You should put each image on a separate page and then compile them into "page flip" animation.


----------



## tresero

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Oh, hell, let's go all the way and send the file in paper tape.
> 
> (I'm glad I wasn't drinking when I read these last two messages.)


Our age is showing, and I am drinking  Had to add some levity.


----------



## H.C.

Did you guys get to the bottom of this yet? Some videos floating around youtube with authors recording the page flip no page read interactions and the "read the whole book but want to check a map and then lose the whole read example.

I have a mpa in the front of my book if someone reads to say, page 100 and then goes to check out the map and then comes back to page 100 to continue on do I just lose all the pages?


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Herefortheride said:


> I have a mpa in the front of my book if someone reads to say, page 100 and then goes to check out the map and then comes back to page 100 to continue on do I just lose all the pages?


I'm not 100% clear on how it works if the device is connected all the time via wifi, but if not, the page recorded is the current page whenever the reader closes the book. If they read to page 100, turn back to the map, then carry on from page 100, then close the book, the next connection will record all those pages read. It's only if they turn back to the map and close the book there that the pages are lost.

But it might be different if the device is always connected. Someone upthread said that pages already recorded on your graph can actually be removed later if the reader goes back to the beginning, but I haven't seen any confirmation of that.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> No. You should put each image on a separate page and then compile them into "page flip" animation.


That flip animation is one of the best I've seen. Thanks for posting!


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Update:  The KENPC pages-read issue is still ongoing.  Had three recent ratings bumps that had to be borrows, and gained a total of 15 KENPC pages out of it all.

Hope someone at Amazon gets their act together Real Soon.  Even though I'm not suffering near as much as those of you out there losing hundreds and thousands, it is still annoying and depressing.  I mean, why have KU in the first place if you can't manage it?  Duh.


----------



## Abalone

That sounds like an improvement, Joe. Unless I'm reading that wrong?


----------



## PearlEarringLady

RBN said:


> I'll report back when I have more than three numbers to support that piece of the puzzle, but the timing of the plunge and apparent recovery relating so closely to the placement/removal of links is at least suggestive to me that this is one more source of page leakage.


This is interesting, although so many people have links at front and back of books that I'd have thought more people would be affected, if this were a problem.

This effect could also be caused by A/B testing, which has been suggested upthread. You make a change, your book gets put into one or other set. You make another change, it gets switched to the other set. But we're all floundering at the moment. As the scientists say - more research is needed!


----------



## jason2505

PaulineMRoss said:


> This is interesting, although so many people have links at front and back of books that I'd have thought more people would be affected, if this were a problem.
> 
> This effect could also be caused by A/B testing, which has been suggested upthread. You make a change, your book gets put into one or other set. You make another change, it gets switched to the other set. But we're all floundering at the moment. As the scientists say - more research is needed!


I had a friend click through one of my books in KU that has had zero pages for a few month. He clicked through it two days ago without telling me the number of pages, so that I could tell him how much registered  Guess how many: zero.

But no, amazon, everything's fine on your end, I understand that.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Abalone said:


> That sounds like an improvement, Joe. Unless I'm reading that wrong?


If you're asking if it's better than a 1-page read, I guess so.

My collection has two forewords in the front, one comical, one serious. My guess is that that people are reading the stories and then coming back to read the forewords, and then exiting. Especially because the first foreword begins,

"It is I, your scaly host, welcoming you to my compendium of tall tales and short excuses. If you despise forewords as much as I do, then just go--jump immediately to the meat of this volume!"

:/

As to the outside link thing: I do have a link at the back of the book, but it's to my editing services page and it is a text link, not LIVE. In other words, not clickable, so I don't think I have an issue there.


----------



## hopecartercan

jason2505 said:


> I had a friend click through one of my books in KU that has had zero pages for a few month. He clicked through it two days ago without telling me the number of pages, so that I could tell him how much registered  Guess how many: zero.
> 
> But no, amazon, everything's fine on your end, I understand that.


That's interesting...I had a book that I released about a week ago. It made it to the top 100 for it's category, but it's had zero page reads and one sale. It's been in the top 100 for its category for 2 DAYS! Normally, it would take at least 100 or so sales/borrows to make the list.


----------



## sela

I never even thought about the possibility of links at the back of the book to the next book in the series being an issue. Someone should contact Amazon about this and ask if the reader has to physically close the book and _then_ open a new book for reads to register. Someone should also do a test of this.

Too many potential ways that pages are not counted...


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

sela said:


> I never even thought about the possibility of links at the back of the book to the next book in the series being an issue. Someone should contact Amazon about this and ask if the reader has to physically close the book and _then_ open a new book for reads to register. Someone should also do a test of this.
> 
> Too many potential ways that pages are not counted...


Agreed. It's very worrying.


----------



## dragontucker

RBN said:


> Someone upthread suggested that clicking links exited the book without counting the pages read during that session. That struck a chord with me because on September 30, I added a link to New Book in the back of Old Book, which had previously contained no external links. Subsequently, during the month of October, Old Book experienced a 92,000-page plunge in KENP.
> 
> To test whether exiting-via-link accounted for the plunge in my case, I removed the link on November 4. It's early, of course, so the apparent trend could be a complete coincidence (as KDP continues to insist everything is), but page counts so far have bumped steadily upward: 6283, 7307, and 9754. As of 3 a.m. Central US time this morning, there are already 4706 pages counted, so I anticipate the upward trend will continue today as borrows of the linked version work their way out and the linkless version is read (and exited in a fashion that records the pages) more, hopefully back toward September's daily average of over 12,000 pages/day.
> 
> I'll report back when I have more than three numbers to support that piece of the puzzle, but the timing of the plunge and apparent recovery relating so closely to the placement/removal of links is at least suggestive to me that this is one more source of page leakage.


Hmmm. Interesting. Wouldn't a mailing list signup link result in the same error too?


----------



## hopecartercan

sela said:


> I never even thought about the possibility of links at the back of the book to the next book in the series being an issue. Someone should contact Amazon about this and ask if the reader has to physically close the book and _then_ open a new book for reads to register. Someone should also do a test of this.
> 
> Too many potential ways that pages are not counted...


This


----------



## dragontucker

BTW guys, I write in "Coming of Age" Fantasy. I have had 34 paid sales in the last 4 days. But....I have not had any KU page reads since these sales began to come in. Does that seem like it could be odd? Perhaps the KU reads are dragging behind? Just seems like I would have some KU readers along with the sales.


----------



## Going Incognito

Here y'all go. I'll save you the five day wait for an email response to what is obviously is a problem:

Thanks for your inquiry. We regularly audit and monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior.

The KDP business team has not found any systematic issues impacting your results. Please note that, as always, individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.

We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors.


----------



## Row

I sure hope everyone continues to report these issues to KDP. Especially with proof that pages read aren't being credited. Only way to get things fixed is to keep the pressure on. Be firm.


----------



## jason2505

Going Incognito said:


> Here y'all go. I'll save you the five day wait for an email response to what is obviously is a problem:
> 
> Thanks for your inquiry. We regularly audit and monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior.
> 
> The KDP business team has not found any systematic issues impacting your results. Please note that, as always, individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.
> 
> We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors.


It's just a screaming injustice that they ignore such evident proofs. Nowhere else this would be possible.


----------



## Going Incognito

jason2505 said:


> It's just a screaming injustice that they ignore such evident proofs. Nowhere else this would be possible.


Agreed.

Course nowhere else can a vendor ask the seller 'how many units did you move for me?' and be told, 'none of your business, now take this made up number we both know isn't right as payment and shut up about it already.'


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Going Incognito said:


> Here y'all go. I'll save you the five day wait for an email response to what is obviously is a problem:
> 
> Thanks for your inquiry. We regularly audit and monitor pages-read systems for accuracy with a particular focus on making sure we have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior.
> 
> The KDP business team has not found any systematic issues impacting your results. Please note that, as always, individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, etc.
> 
> We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors.


I actually have to sit on my hands to keep myself from sending off this missive to KDP:

Dear KDP:

I have noticed that over the past couple of months, borrows of my book, The Dinosaur Chronicles (B019OAVLL, are no longer corresponding to a normal pages-read count. I have researched this matter and have come to the conclusion that my work is suffering from your current Kindle software release, and I am requesting that you recompile my (already-uploaded) EPUB file with the flag set that tells the Kindle software to use the old method of counting pages. Your tech team will know what I'm talking about.

I know you will thank me for my inquiry. I know that you regularly audit and monitor pages-read systems for accuracy, with a particular focus on making sure you have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior.

I know that your KDP business team will not find any systematic issues impacting my results. And I will note that, as always, individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, and the phases of the moon.

And I know that you always appreciate the questions and feedback that you get from me.

But still--PLEASE RESET THE FREAKIN' A/B FLAG ON MY TITLE AND LET ME GET BACK MY PAGE READS, OKAY?

...

Yup, I'm still sitting on my hands here. But as the days go by I get more and more tempted.

And now that I've composed this, should I lose my patience, I can just copy-and-paste from Kboards.


----------



## Jill Nojack

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I actually have to sit on my hands to keep myself from sending off this missive to KDP:
> 
> Dear KDP:
> 
> I have noticed that over the past couple of months, borrows of my book, The Dinosaur Chronicles (B019OAVLL, are no longer corresponding to a normal pages-read count. I have researched this matter and have come to the conclusion that my work is suffering from your current Kindle software release, and I am requesting that you recompile my (already-uploaded) EPUB file with the flag set that tells the Kindle software to use the old method of counting pages. Your tech team will know what I'm talking about.
> 
> I know you will thank me for my inquiry. I know that you regularly audit and monitor pages-read systems for accuracy, with a particular focus on making sure you have correctly filtered out fraudulent reading activity, while including all legitimate customer behavior.
> 
> I know that your KDP business team will not find any systematic issues impacting my results. And I will note that, as always, individual title performance can vary and be impacted by a number of different factors such as seasonality, genre trends, series age, and the phases of the moon.
> 
> And I know that you always appreciate the questions and feedback that you get from me.
> 
> But still--PLEASE RESET THE FREAKIN' A/B FLAG ON MY TITLE AND LET ME GET BACK MY PAGE READS, OKAY?
> 
> ...
> 
> Yup, I'm still sitting on my hands here. But as the days go by I get more and more tempted.
> 
> And now that I've composed this, should I lose my patience, I can just copy-and-paste from Kboards.


Dear Joseph:

Thank you for contacting Amazon. Unfortunately, we are unable to complete your request. The system is working as designed.

The majority of Kindle authors have given us positive feedback that they enjoy being paid with "exposure" rather than with filthy lucre.

Please let us know if we can assist you further.

The Kindle Press Team


----------



## hopecartercan

dragontucker said:


> BTW guys, I write in "Coming of Age" Fantasy. I have had 34 paid sales in the last 4 days. But....I have not had any KU page reads since these sales began to come in. Does that seem like it could be odd? Perhaps the KU reads are dragging behind? Just seems like I would have some KU readers along with the sales.


Seems like to me you should be getting page reads, too.


----------



## Genre Hoarder

This could be totally unrelated, but I received a notice from Amazon that they were processing a payment in regards to an adjustment to my KOLL/Page Reads. It advised that I check my dashboard, and sure enough, there is an adjustment spanning May 1 - August 31 page reads. Fluke or a miracle? Either way, I'll take it. Hope that means everyone gets an adjustment.


----------



## hopecartercan

Genre Hoarder said:


> This could be totally unrelated, but I received a notice from Amazon that they were processing a payment in regards to an adjustment to my KOLL/Page Reads. It advised that I check my dashboard, and sure enough, there is an adjustment spanning May 1 - August 31 page reads. Fluke or a miracle? Either way, I'll take it. Hope that means everyone gets an adjustment.


I'm happy you're getting some of the money they owe you. Did it come out of the blue? Or had you complained to them?

ETA: When did you get the notice? Today?


----------



## Genre Hoarder

hopecartercan said:


> I'm happy you're getting some of the money they owe you. Did it come out of the blue? Or had you complained to them?
> 
> ETA: When did you get the notice? Today?


I complained early last month and got the canned response that everyone else got. Then, today out of the blue, I received the notification of an adjustment. No explanation, no apology, just a statement saying royalties for were pending clearance and to log into my dashboard. I had to go through every month to see what they were talking about. I found the adjustment under May's payments. I had to click on that time period and under it was a list of adjustments beginning May 1st and ending on August 31st. They were all listed as KOLL Page Reads adjustments. While I appreciate the payment (who wouldn't?), it'd be nice to know why all of a sudden and a breakdown of what book/s were these monies for.


----------



## rickblackmon

Genre Hoarder said:


> I complained early last month and got the canned response that everyone else got. Then, today out of the blue, I received the notification of an adjustment. No explanation, no apology, just a statement saying royalties for were pending clearance and to log into my dashboard. I had to go through every month to see what they were talking about. I found the adjustment under May's payments. I had to click on that time period and under it was a list of adjustments beginning May 1st and ending on August 31st. They were all listed as KOLL Page Reads adjustments. While I appreciate the payment (who wouldn't?), it'd be nice to know why all of a sudden and a breakdown of what book/s were these monies for.


Where did it show up on the KDP reports? I just looked at the months beginning with May under payments and saw 1 adjustment that said multi-month adjustment. None of the other months showed anything. Mine took a nosedive beginning Sept 23. I appreciate your posting the info.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## Jericho

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> UPDATE
> 
> For those of you who have been following the mini saga of my emails to KDP about _Bheki and the Magic Light_ page reads - I had a phone call from Executive Customer Relations . I was asked if the reader would be willing to share details of the device used so they could check that the device settings were correct. I have supplied the email address of the reader.
> The agent was aware of the author forums concerning page read problems and reiterated their obvious policy that all was ok their end and she was only dealing with my particular problem.
> I checked the ranking of Bheki and on the day the reader downloaded it the ranking shot from 2 million up to #143,016.


I'm curious about this ... say they contact you with info your friend's device settings are askew. What does that mean for the other unreachable customers out there who may have settings askew that are also affecting author reads? Seems like a strange way to search for fix or troubleshoot the problem. If I understood this correctly. Just a thought I had the other day.


----------



## Jericho

AMAZON_PageRead_Test_and_Results_#3

(This is the short version. The longer unedited version I'm making available only to ECR.)

I thought I'd post another test I did with some startling easily provable/produced results. I will have another couple of tests and future follow-ups for previously conducted tests. (hint: there is an issue here, not just with these results, but newer findings outside of 'page flip', coming soon...)

What I've learned: It's not a total cure all, but, I've personally gone through my entire catalog for all pens and removed any back of the ebook TOCs trying to eliminate any reason to go backwards from the last page. It will not change all reader back-track behavior, and does not totally get rid of "1page reads" issue completely, but hopefully it will result in some boost in page reads down the line. (I use Calibre to format from Word and it was automatically adding TOCs in back of my ebooks--thought I'd pass it along in case it helps others. Formatting may be why some are getting hit more heavily.)

Question: If one were to unpublish a title in KU before the end of the term, is it a breach if the Zon cannot accurately report page reads per the terms of their contract?

Ciao for now.


----------



## LadyG

Just playing Devil's Advocate for a minute here. I'm not sure just how much your video really proves. I am not disputing the fact that there is something hinky going on, but it seems like Amazon could come back with a lot of explanations for what you're showing them.  For example, if you've already read through your own book, new page reads won't show up. Or perhaps they could argue that Book Report is not their program, so they can't control what does or doesn't show up. Or they could point out that their reports are always delayed and your sales report page was never guaranteed to be instantaneous. 

Again, I'm not saying that there's not a problem. My own reports are screwy, too. But I just don't think your videos are the resounding lightning bolts of truth that you think they are.


----------



## Genre Hoarder

PhoenixS said:


> I'm a little confused by this. Most of us got an adjustment in May, simply referred to as a "multi-month" adjustment, that was recompense for scammed page reads. The Payments reports are for royalties that have been...well...paid. I would think any adjustment for prior royalties not yet paid would be attached to the next payout, which would be for September royalties, and we likely wouldn't see that adjustment until the payments for Sept start posting around Nov 25. I'm not sure why Amazon would post adjustments it hasn't paid retroactively. Or perhaps I'm not understanding correctly.


To clarify, I just received the notification for multi-month adjustment. It hasn't officially been paid to may account yet. On my dashboard it says "Pending confirmation from bank", but I can see what the adjustment is for those months. They have it dated May 1 - Aug. 31 of this year. I don't expect to receive the monies until the next payment later this month.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

UPDATE on Bheki.

KDP contacted the reader by phone and they went through various settings and the agent believes there's an issue with the Kindle Cloud Reader's Whispersync setting, which the reader is not convinced could be the problem. So that could be yet another thing to consider  
I ended up with 11 page reads while they did the testing  . 
I will wait a few days to see if the agent comes back to me - or if I suddenly get the correct number of page reads.


----------



## sela

I honestly can't believe how bad KU is that someone's settings in Kindle Cloud Reader can mean the pages read are not counted and paid out or a link at the back might mean the book is not counted -- at all -- or flipping back to the cover might negate all pages read. How many other snags like this are present in KU? How much more would everyone be making if all these little bugs were ironed out, let alone any big SNAFUs resulting from anti-fraud processes meant to prevent scams?


----------



## Going Incognito

Oops never mind, I take back anything bad I ever said. (No, I don't) Amazon Prime will soon be cleaning my house as another Prime perk!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-hiring-full-time-house-204600197.html


----------



## jason2505

sela said:


> I honestly can't believe how bad KU is that someone's settings in Kindle Cloud Reader can mean the pages read are not counted and paid out or a link at the back might mean the book is not counted -- at all -- or flipping back to the cover might negate all pages read. How many other snags like this are present in KU? How much more would everyone be making if all these little bugs were ironed out, let alone any big SNAFUs resulting from anti-fraud processes meant to prevent scams?


Again, worst of all is amazon's PR approach to this. Just repeating over and over again that there is no problem although there definitely authors affected (no matter how many are, just 1 should be enough to let them take this seriously), that is just not correct IMO. Especially if you remember the different messages from "there is NO problem" to "there is a 2% problem" to "everything's fine again" - makes me only shake my head.


----------



## jason2505

Going Incognito said:


> Oops never mind, I take back anything bad I ever said. (No, I don't) Amazon Prime will soon be cleaning my house as another Prime perk!
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-hiring-full-time-house-204600197.html


Fitting that I got a mail today that the costs for prime in germany will be raised from 49€ to 69€ - the higher expenses for the home assistants have to be earned somewhere


----------



## AsianInspiration

sela said:


> How much more would everyone be making if all these little bugs were ironed out


None, on average, right? Since everyone is taking from the same pool, more page reads just means less money per page, right?


----------



## JVRudnick

Haven't noticed any posts here, on Book Report?

But my own is wonky wonky. I have sold--least the Reports section on KDP says that I sold three BoxSets yesterday.

Each should get me $6.32 for a sale--and on Book Report--it says I've sold 3 - but shows Zeros for the royalties....

Hmm....


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

JVRudnick said:


> Haven't noticed any posts here, on Book Report?
> 
> But my own is wonky wonky. I have sold--least the Reports section on KDP says that I sold three BoxSets yesterday.
> 
> Each should get me $6.32 for a sale--and on Book Report--it says I've sold 3 - but shows Zeros for the royalties....
> 
> Hmm....


That's not wonky, that's normal. It won't show a dollar amount until the payment is processed.


----------



## jason2505

JVRudnick said:


> Haven't noticed any posts here, on Book Report?
> 
> But my own is wonky wonky. I have sold--least the Reports section on KDP says that I sold three BoxSets yesterday.
> 
> Each should get me $6.32 for a sale--and on Book Report--it says I've sold 3 - but shows Zeros for the royalties....
> 
> Hmm....


sales sometimes get paid one day later. I've encountered this often. Someone told this might be due to the credit card payments which take longer from some customers.


----------



## Gator

AsianInspiration said:


> None, on average, right? Since everyone is taking from the same pool, more page reads just means less money per page, right?


Correct. The only difference would be the distribution amounts to individuals. The KDP publishers shortchanged more than others would receive higher amounts; the KDP publishers shortchanged less than others would receive lower amounts. The total Global Fund distribution for September would still be $15.9 million if Amazon made corrections (which I doubt they will, unless the corrections are made after fraud is detected).


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Let's not stray into politics, folks . . . . . some posts have been removed.


----------



## Jericho

LadyG said:


> For example, if you've already read through your own book, new page reads won't show up. Or perhaps they could argue that Book Report is not their program, so they can't control what does or doesn't show up. Or they could point out that their reports are always delayed and your sales report page was never guaranteed to be instantaneous.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that there's not a problem. My own reports are screwy, too. But I just don't think your videos are the resounding lightning bolts of truth that you think they are.


Here is my current page read for those two books I've tested as of Nov. 8, 2016 at 10:44am. Still nothing changed seven and eight days later.

"150 Extremely Power Affirmations for Success $0.06 12	0	0
250 Extremely Powerful Affirmations for Leadership	$0.01	1	0	0"

Second of all, if you watch the video you see that the book says "NEW!" That means I've never read through it at all.

Consistently attempting to diminish my efforts to look at this issue help absolutely no one. Neither is it helpful to say I have a problem and oh well, it's more helpful, as a business person, and an "Amazon Partner" to attempt to analyze the issue and troubleshoot it for possible corrections, solutions, points of differentiation, and clarity. .

I never said the tests were the lighting rods of truth. But I know I'm not making anything up. Each title I test, I've only borrowed once and read through once. Period.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks, let's keep it civil.  Don't make me get out the cattle prod.

I've done some editing. There's a fine line between snark and a personal attack.  If in doubt, don't say it.  And emoticons can help.

Betsy


----------



## JohnMilton

For what is worth, since my sales are small enough I see the single page reads, I am still seeing them, but within half a day, I am also seeing a corresponding increase to something that seems normal.  I have also seen a rebound on sales units and page reads to what used to be normal for me.  I wonder if they are starting to put fixes into place that monitor the way people are reading.


----------



## rickblackmon

JohnMilton said:


> For what is worth, since my sales are small enough I see the single page reads, I am still seeing them, but within half a day, I am also seeing a corresponding increase to something that seems normal. I have also seen a rebound on sales units and page reads to what used to be normal for me. I wonder if they are starting to put fixes into place that monitor the way people are reading.


Or it might have to do with Australia now having access to KU.


----------



## TellNotShow

sela said:


> I honestly can't believe how bad KU is that someone's settings in Kindle Cloud Reader can mean the pages read are not counted and paid out or a link at the back might mean the book is not counted -- at all -- or flipping back to the cover might negate all pages read. How many other snags like this are present in KU? How much more would everyone be making if all these little bugs were ironed out, let alone any big SNAFUs resulting from anti-fraud processes meant to prevent scams?


It seems to me that IF ALL these different things are real, there are far too many different problems for them to be accidental. Amazon's tech just cannot be that bad, their site wouldn't work if it was. They got into this ebook thing intending to pay content suppliers (authors/publishers) a maximum of 35% of sale price, and had to up it when Apple entered the fray and offered a flat 70%. All this KU stuff seems designed to bring the payout percentage back down to where Amazon wanted it. And in a way where they never have to admit to what percentage they're actually keeping.


----------



## AsianInspiration

TellNotShow said:


> It seems to me that IF ALL these different things are real, there are far too many different problems for them to be accidental. Amazon's tech just cannot be that bad, their site wouldn't work if it was. They got into this ebook thing intending to pay content suppliers (authors/publishers) a maximum of 35% of sale price, and had to up it when Apple entered the fray and offered a flat 70%. All this KU stuff seems designed to bring the payout percentage back down to where Amazon wanted it. And in a way where they never have to admit to what percentage they're actually keeping.


That just doesn't make any sense at all.

If they wanted to reduce the payment with shady methods, all they needed to do is to artificially increase the number of pages read every month. Say there are normally 10b pages read, they can simply claim that there were 20b pages read. It'd basically be impossible for authors to detect.

Why would they use such convoluted methods that makes it a lot easier to find out? They wouldn't.

Besides, again, reducing the number of pages read does not reduce the total payment. It simply increases the amount per page read. Amazon gains nothing from this. Not that they lose anything from it, either.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

AsianInspiration said:


> That just doesn't make any sense at all.
> 
> If they wanted to reduce the payment with shady methods, all they needed to do is to artificially increase the number of pages read every month. Say there are normally 10b pages read, they can simply claim that there were 20b pages read. It'd basically be impossible for authors to detect.
> 
> Why would they use such convoluted methods that makes it a lot easier to find out? They wouldn't.
> 
> Besides, again, reducing the number of pages read does not reduce the total payment. It simply increases the amount per page read. Amazon gains nothing from this. Not that they lose anything from it, either.


Indeed. All Amazon would need to do would be to fiddle the total pages read (as you say), or fiddle the pay pool, if they wanted to reduce the payout. Heck, all they'd need to do is say, publicly, that the economics of the KU program require a temporary reduction in payout, and we'd grumble but accept it.

As to, "Not that they lose anything from it, either." Right now, the apparent unequal and irregular detection of pages read is killing Amazon's credibility, at least with us writers. And, I'm also beginning to distrust the Orders graph. No matter how big the company, when credibility is lost, it is hard, Hard, HARD to get it back. (E.g., after Microsoft tried to sneak-update my PC to Windows 10, I swore I would never trust Microsoft again, about anything, period. Bill Gates could come to my door with a check for $1,000,000, and I'd accept it gratefully, but it still wouldn't make me trust Microsoft again. In fact, I'd use part of that million to buy a Unix box.)


----------



## 75845

I can easily believe that Amazon's IT department is that bad. Counting pages read on devices is a whole level of complexity to the power of ten beyond anything else they do on their site. They made a cattle prod for their own back. The simple solution to KU1 being full of leaflets was to follow Scribd's example and only allow shorts in if they are free. They could have had a halfway house between KU1 and KU2 with a full payment for the book based on its KENPC, but a KU1 type counting to 10%. There is sill plenty that could have gone wrong and there will always be an arms race with the scammers and page flip should still not have been introduced as not counting towards the 10%, but pages read is such a complicated system when readers (the customers not the devices) will not do as Amazon assumes they will do. Such as not press the home key when they reach the end of the book.


----------



## jason2505

My friend recorded a video how he reads through one of my books via KU as well. my reports say ZERO pages, though. It's ridiculous. I emailed KDP again, I mean, how can they still deny something is off?


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

jason2505 said:


> My friend recorded a video how he reads through one of my books via KU as well. my reports say ZERO pages, though. It's ridiculous. I emailed KDP again, I mean, how can they still deny something is off?


"I mean, how can they still deny something is off?"

Really, _really_ good drugs?

This situation is severely straining my sarcasm emission controls. I'm finding it difficult to keep from letting go with both barrels.


----------



## tresero

I emailed amazon 2 months ago, got the form letter back and sent another one to Jeff (yeah, Jeff reads them  and reply to the ticket. That was 6 weeks ago. I resent the email 2 weeks ago, and still not one reply.

I have no faith that they even give a you know what. It's all fine in their eyes, so go away pesky author. My income has gone from 5 figures a month to low 4 figures. Basically the same as I had 18 months ago with less books and half the mailing list.

Oh well.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Atlantisatheart said:


> I think until it is visibly having an effect on top authors like Amanda who make the biggest impact then no, Amazon doesn't give a hoot. It would take the biggest fish in the pond kicking up a fuss for something to be done or enough books pulled out of KU to make a difference to the readers for them to lift their snouts out of the trough and do something to fix it.


What I fear is that the top KU sellers have been exempted from this recent change, and thus Amazon will never hear a complaint from them. Heck, for all we know, the top sellers might even be given credit for a full-book read upon borrow. Who knows?


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What I fear is that the top KU sellers have been exempted from this recent change, and thus Amazon will never hear a complaint from them. Heck, for all we know, the top sellers might even be given credit for a full-book read upon borrow. Who knows?


I think it's very clear from many posts upthread that some very big sellers have been affected by whatever it is that's changed, as well as prawnier authors. It also seems to be the case that, overall, the numbers affected have been small, so while it's been devastating for a few people, most people are unaffected. No need to postulate special treatment for anyone.


----------



## AsianInspiration

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What I fear is that the top KU sellers have been exempted from this recent change, and thus Amazon will never hear a complaint from them. Heck, for all we know, the top sellers might even be given credit for a full-book read upon borrow. Who knows?


Very unlikely. How're they going to determine who is a "top seller"? manually? With code? Unnecessary work for no benefit.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

PaulineMRoss said:


> I think it's very clear from many posts upthread that some very big sellers have been affected by whatever it is that's changed, as well as prawnier authors. It also seems to be the case that, overall, the numbers affected have been small, so while it's been devastating for a few people, most people are unaffected. No need to postulate special treatment for anyone.


You are probably right, but once reliability in a system has been shown shaky, trust is the next thing to go.

But do you really think Stephen King, e.g., didn't pen a separate agreement with KDP regarding his e-titles? If I were in his shoes, I'd demand assumption of full pages read for each borrow. And, he'd get away with it.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

AsianInspiration said:


> Very unlikely. How're they going to determine who is a "top seller"? manually? With code? Unnecessary work for no benefit.


 Don't they already have this? How do they determine, each month, who gets the KU bonus payments?


----------



## 41419

Australia seems to have debuted in my KU reports with a single page read. Either a fitting start or I really got to work on that opening...


----------



## rickblackmon

AsianInspiration said:


> Very unlikely. How're they going to determine who is a "top seller"? manually? With code? Unnecessary work for no benefit.


 I doubt Stephen King uses KU. I just looked at his first three and none are in.


----------



## rickblackmon

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> You are probably right, but once reliability in a system has been shown shaky, trust is the next thing to go.
> 
> But do you really think Stephen King, e.g., didn't pen a separate agreement with KDP regarding his e-titles? If I were in his shoes, I'd demand assumption of full pages read for each borrow. And, he'd get away with it.





AsianInspiration said:


> Very unlikely. How're they going to determine who is a "top seller"? manually? With code? Unnecessary work for no benefit.


 I doubt Stephen King uses KU. I just looked at his first three and none are in.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

rickblackmon said:


> I doubt Stephen King uses KU. I just looked at his first three and none are in.


He's got about a half dozen in (unless there's another Stephen King writing his kind of stuff). Admittedly, these KU's are not his most popular. The point I was trying to make is that a heavy hitter going into KU could very likely cut his or her own deal, with none of us the wiser.


----------



## tresero

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> He's got about a half dozen in (unless there's another Stephen King writing his kind of stuff). Admittedly, these KU's are not his most popular. The point I was trying to make is that a heavy hitter going into KU could very likely cut his or her own deal, with none of us the wiser.


There is, at least one scammer using his name.


----------



## crebel

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> He's got about a half dozen in (unless there's another Stephen King writing his kind of stuff). Admittedly, these KU's are not his most popular. The point I was trying to make is that a heavy hitter going into KU could very likely cut his or her own deal, with none of us the wiser.


http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242680.msg3380025.html#msg3380025


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

crebel said:


> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242680.msg3380025.html#msg3380025


Fascinating. Thanks for the link to a story I hadn't heard.


----------



## David VanDyke

I had an extended conversation with someone at KDP ECR (40 minutes or so). I pressed her hard and she absolutely refused to admit that anything even might be wrong. She continually parroted the party line, to the point that I know she was either reading from a script or had it memorized. She refused to engage me when I explained all of the several ways page reads are being miscounted, even when I said I had hard proof. When I offered to send her proof she said they appreciated all feedback, but she was clearly not interested.

To me, this means that ECR has absolutely been coached, probably by Legal, to hold the line and not give an inch on this, to give us no ammunition. Their earlier admission that there was a 0.2% problem and then a 2% problem probably simply caused them more headaches, from their point of view.

Her stonewalling did not seem to be designed to get me off the phone, but to let me tire myself out, and to avoid directly ticking me off. But as they say, "when you're guilty and you're caught, deny, deny, deny."

Some of my books look normal, but some of them still have bizarre page read profiles. My recent BookBub has definitely not had as powerful an effect as the one before it.

_The world is changing. I feel it in the water..._


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> He's got about a half dozen in (unless there's another Stephen King writing his kind of stuff). Admittedly, these KU's are not his most popular. The point I was trying to make is that a heavy hitter going into KU could very likely cut his or her own deal, with none of us the wiser.


Amazon has made separate deals with big authors (J.K. Rowling) but that money is separate from the KU Pool. It is something Extra that Amazon pays to entice readers to KU.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

David VanDyke said:


> Some of my books look normal, but some of them still have bizarre page read profiles. My recent BookBub has definitely not had as powerful an effect as the one before it.


Any correlation between original publication date and the ones with problems? How about most recent upload-of-text date and the ones with problems?


----------



## David VanDyke

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Any correlation between original publication date and the ones with problems? How about most recent upload-of-text date and the ones with problems?


The worst performers are definitely the most recent ones. However, those were unrelated to the BookBub, though I have done lots of promoting of them. Re-uploading has had a possible discernible positive effect. Putting in a "close the book" notice has had little discernible positive effect. Republishing the same book completely with a new ASIN has had no positive effect. I am experimenting with removing all TOCs and external links to see if that helps influence reader behavior to read and close the book completely.


----------



## Jericho

David VanDyke said:


> I am experimenting with removing all TOCs and external links to see if that helps influence reader behavior to read and close the book completely.


I've removed all TOCs from the back of my entire multi-pen catalog, it has helped some with page reads. But I still consistently get a "1 page read" reporting in KDP and on Book Report, after excluding back of the book TOCs on new books published, as well as on older titles, almost every single day.

I have more videos with variations of testing, that I've yet to post, that show when the last page read is on the last page of the book, I get the correct page reads counts for every book. Even if I take the cursor and zip right to the end of the book and close it in under two to three minutes regardless of length. Works fine.

Backtracking without a TOC link results in whatever page is the last page the book is on, so if the last page is on the cover, it's "1 page read." Video for this as well.

Over the last few days my sales and page reads have tanked severely. Starting to feel punished for posting videos online. (though this may be a little bit of paranoia on my part, the favoritism talk with algos doesn't help  ) My author rank is locked in one place, even though my newer books have been as high as Top #50 in my sub-categories even today 11/10.

I'm waiting for results for tests on the 'link exit out' near the end of the book. I'll have that in an hour or so, I'll post the video with results when I can.

I spoke to someone at the (866) 216-1072 number today. I informed them I've had this issue, with proof, for two straight months now. I also informed them I sent videos via email to Emily at ECR. I also informed her the links were never clicked on nor were my emails responded to, completely ignored. Those emails were sent, with different videos, on 11/1, 11/5, and 11/8. Still no reply, and because I link-tracked the videos, I know there's been no clicks on the links at all.

The person on the phone today stated I should be contacted within 24 to 48 hours by someone looking into my account, but never asked for links to the videos or the growing Amazon Page Reads PDF binder I've put together with the over 35+ incidents of this exact occurrence on my account regardless of pen name. She said they _may_ ask for it when they contact me.

I recorded the phone call for my records. Kept everything cheery and professional. I'll see what happens and report my findings when I can.

Of the two test videos I posted online, with the "1 page read" and the "12 page read" both caused by TOC linking, as of today, 11:08 pm 11/10, these are the results in both KDP and Book Report.

# Title Kindle Edition Normalized Pages Read*

1	150 Extremely Power Affirmations for Success 12 (tested on 11/1/2016)

5	250 Extremely Powerful Affirmations for Leadership 1 (tested on 10/31/2016)

I also, informed the agent on the phone the test videos that demonstrate the results of a "1 page read" and "12 page read" results for easily manipulated TOC linking have not updated even though both books were read in their entirety on video.


----------



## Jericho

David VanDyke said:


> I am experimenting with removing all TOCs and external links to see if that helps influence reader behavior to read and close the book completely.





Jericho said:


> I'm waiting for results for tests on the 'link exit out' near the end of the book. I'll have that in an hour or so, I'll post the video with results when I can.


I got my results back for the "link exit out" test I did. It's just the first one, I've got another test I'm going to try, so it's not definitive by any means, but so far it _doesn't_ look like it impacted my page reads. I linked to another book on amazon's page, which opened in a different browser, from my ebook, and it gave me the correct page reads that it should have. (I have a video of this too) So, there may be a silver-lining on that front.

In my test I closed the book after I linked out from the linked position. I'm trying to assess if its the link out or the page position that impacts page reads. For example if a link is at the end of the book vs. the beginning of a book, or if it's only where the book is closed that matters most.


----------



## jason2505

Jericho said:


> I got my results back for the "link exit out" test I did. It's just the first one, I've got another test I'm going to try, so it's not definitive by any means, but so far it _doesn't_ look like it impacted my page reads. I linked to another book on amazon's page, which opened in a different browser, from my ebook, and it gave me the correct page reads that it should have. (I have a video of this too) So, there may be a silver-lining on that front.
> 
> In my test I closed the book after I linked out from the linked position. I'm trying to assess if its the link out or the page position that impacts page reads. For example if a link is at the end of the book vs. the beginning of a book, or if it's only where the book is closed that matters most.


Thanks for your efforts! I really appreciate it.

I sent a mail to KDP yesterday with a video link as well, still waiting for the reply.


----------



## Hope

Jericho said:


> Over the last few days my sales and page reads have tanked severely. Starting to feel punished for posting videos online. (though this may be a little bit of paranoia on my part, the favoritism talk with algos doesn't help  ) My author rank is locked in one place, even though my newer books have been as high as Top #50 in my sub-categories even today 11/10.


My sales and page reads have also taken a severe nosedive the past several days. I really hope it's just because of the election. Fridays and Saturdays are my slowest days, so I'm hoping it will pick up Sunday and be back to normal.


----------



## H.C.

I wonder how many authors are bombarding them? I got an e-mail back a couple days ago and it was the same babble. I asked specific questions and they didn't address any of them.


----------



## S.R.

David VanDyke said:


> I had an extended conversation with someone at KDP ECR (40 minutes or so). I pressed her hard and she absolutely refused to admit that anything even might be wrong. She continually parroted the party line, to the point that I know she was either reading from a script or had it memorized. She refused to engage me when I explained all of the several ways page reads are being miscounted, even when I said I had hard proof. When I offered to send her proof she said they appreciated all feedback, but she was clearly not interested.


This is the sense I get too. A rep from the ECR team had reached out to me about some general page read questions I'd submitted through the primary KDP contact link. I naively thought Amazon was actually interested. By then I had conducted a page read test and I sent her the background/process on the test I ran, the result of missing pages on my report, book ASIN, etc. and said I wanted her to have all of the information in hand so that we could have a discussion about the issue.

That was 16 days ago (and counting). I have a feeling I was going to get the "scripted" conversation and as soon as I provided specific data that I wanted to discuss...crickets.


----------



## Hope

David VanDyke said:


> I had an extended conversation with someone at KDP ECR (40 minutes or so). I pressed her hard and she absolutely refused to admit that anything even might be wrong. She continually parroted the party line, to the point that I know she was either reading from a script or had it memorized. She refused to engage me when I explained all of the several ways page reads are being miscounted, even when I said I had hard proof. When I offered to send her proof she said they appreciated all feedback, but she was clearly not interested.
> 
> To me, this means that ECR has absolutely been coached, probably by Legal, to hold the line and not give an inch on this, to give us no ammunition. Their earlier admission that there was a 0.2% problem and then a 2% problem probably simply caused them more headaches, from their point of view.
> 
> Her stonewalling did not seem to be designed to get me off the phone, but to let me tire myself out, and to avoid directly ticking me off. But as they say, "when you're guilty and you're caught, deny, deny, deny."
> 
> Some of my books look normal, but some of them still have bizarre page read profiles. My recent BookBub has definitely not had as powerful an effect as the one before it.
> 
> _The world is changing. I feel it in the water..._


This is very disheartening. I had hoped that they were working on things, even if they wouldn't admit to it. I suppose they still could be, but, it's gone on for so long...


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

katygirl said:


> This is very disheartening. I had hoped that they were working on things, even if they wouldn't admit to it. I suppose they still could be, but, it's gone on for so long...


Indeed. In my career, I've had to write a thousand lines of raw code and get it working perfectly over a two-day period. This CANNOT be anywhere near this difficult.

Is it too early to begin discussing a mass-unpublish?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

David VanDyke said:


> My recent BookBub has definitely not had as powerful an effect as the one before it.


If writers begin complaining to BookBub about poor results perhaps BookBub will complain to KDP


----------



## CozyReads

It's very clear that Amazon has no interest in resolving whatever page reads issues there are or digging deeper to figure out why page reads on new releases are randomly throttled. The parroted talking points are designed to wear authors down until they slink quietly away, perhaps to contemplate going wide. 

At this point, publishing a new title and opting into Select is like playing KDP's version of Russian Roulette. If you're lucky, the publish chamber will be empty and your book will perform normally regarding sales and page reads. If you're unlucky and the bullet hits your book, it will be DOA in the Kindle store. 

Not a great way to run a business


----------



## TromboneAl

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> If writers begin complaining to BookBub about poor results perhaps BookBub will complain to KDP


Nice idea. Let's get that 800-pound gorilla on our side!



> Amazon's tech just cannot be that bad, their site wouldn't work if it was.


I have a theory that there is one group of programmers (smart) that works on the Amazon sales system, and another group (dumb) that deals with everything else.


----------



## jason2505

jason2505 said:


> Thanks for your efforts! I really appreciate it.
> 
> I sent a mail to KDP yesterday with a video link as well, still waiting for the reply.


It's rdiculous. The same standard reply. I will go wide 2017 if nothing changes.


----------



## 41419

David VanDyke said:


> Some of my books look normal, but some of them still have bizarre page read profiles. My recent BookBub has definitely not had as powerful an effect as the one before it.


I think we were BB boxset buddies. I saw you a few places ahead of me in the charts. How was your KU halo?


----------



## Joseph Malik

Amazon logged two page reads yesterday. 

Two.

I had two sales; my usual KENP is between 600-1200.

Two. Freakin'. Page reads.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

It's very disheartening when you see your book's ranking shoot up and nothing on your dashboard.


----------



## jason2505

Joseph Malik said:


> Amazon logged two page reads yesterday.
> 
> Two.
> 
> I had two sales; my usual KENP is between 600-1200.
> 
> Two. Freakin'. Page reads.


KDP replied to a video a friend made where he actually reads my book, but the reports didn't register any pages.

"Thank you for your reply. We've looked at the data and can't find a systematic issue affecting your results. We apologize, but we just don't have any more information to offer.

Regards,

Josh Tong 
Executive Customer Relations 
Kindle Direct Publishing"

In other words, they just keep on denying it. As dissapointed as I am, I will see this as a red flag to leave KU. I wish all the best to you for the future, no matter if you are affected or not, with your publishing business.


----------



## Lydniz

Joseph Malik said:


> Amazon logged two page reads yesterday.
> 
> Two.
> 
> I had two sales; my usual KENP is between 600-1200.
> 
> Two. Freakin'. Page reads.


Not to minimise your problem, but depending on the length of your book, that might just be the equivalent of going from three people reading your full book to no people reading your full book, which is not too hard to imagine.


----------



## Abalone

Why aren't authors contacting the press? A lot of the papers minus The Washington Post would love to grill Amazon over coals for screwing authors over this.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Abalone said:


> Why aren't authors contacting the press? A lot of the papers minus The Washington Post would love to grill Amazon over coals for screwing authors over this.


Some of this may, in fact, be happening. The problems are that this is a very technical issue and the victims aren't particularly politically important.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Abalone said:


> Why aren't authors contacting the press? A lot of the papers minus The Washington Post would love to grill Amazon over coals for screwing authors over this.


Because that's not true. This is a small issue affecting a very small number of people and the greater reading audience won't care. It's a big issue to the people being affected (and rightly so) but the general public does not care and it's not a story that will attract readers.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Because that's not true. This is a small issue affecting a very small number of people and the greater reading audience won't care. It's a big issue to the people being affected (and rightly so) but the general public does not care and it's not a story that will attract readers.


You are absolutely right.

Further, this situation, for those of us affected, only works to the benefit of the ABC ("package") stores. It doesn't even work to the benefit of Amazon, as the KU pool is distributed anyway, unless we want to believe that the KU pool figure is being munged.

Shoot me now.


----------



## JRTomlin

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> It's very disheartening when you see your book's ranking shoot up and nothing on your dashboard.


It is but is also something that happens. Pretty frequently you get borrows by people who don't read it until later. I have one book I borrowed about a month ago. I have every intention of reading it -- eventually. 

*gives David a guilty look* I swear I'm going to read it. Honest.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

JRTomlin said:


> It is but is also something that happens. Pretty frequently you get borrows by people who don't read it until later. I have one book I borrowed about a month ago. I have every intention of reading it -- eventually.
> 
> *gives David a guilty look* I swear I'm going to read it. Honest.


I currently have 8 titles borrowed via KU. The most recent one was 10 days ago. The one in my library the longest was borrowed on October 15. I certainly have every intention of reading all of them, but I also borrow from the library. I have quite a few on hold and when my name comes up in the queue, those books get priority because I've a limited time to read them.

That said, I do plan on letting my subscription to KU lapse when it's up next month -- I'll just go with what's available via Prime Reading and KOLL. It's too much pressure. There are plenty of non-KU books I want to read as well but I feel like I really ought to prioritize the KU ones. But I'm not always in the right mood. As it is, I may not get to all those I've borrowed before it expires.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Lynn is a pseud--uh said:


> I borrowed a book through KOLL three months ago. It's still sitting on page 1. I swear I keep thinking I'm going to get to it. I am. I just can't seem to actually do it.


See, KOLL works for me (and I've finished my earlier post now, too . . . accidental premature post  ).

When I browse Amazon or have books recommended to me, I wishlist them. If they're KU/KOLL/Prime, they go on a special list. When I'm ready to get a new KOLL book, I go to my wishlist and pick one out and then borrow it. So I know it's something I'm ready to read _now_ and not something that just looks good that I'll get to eventually.


----------



## Atunah

I got you all beat.  
Oldest KU borrow on my kindle/account is from August 2015. I have 4 that I borrowed in 2015. Couple in February, April, May of this year, couple in summer. And the last I got on the 8th which I am reading now. As long as I have one slot open I am good. I'll get to the others at some point. A few are not in KU anymore. So someone is going to get reads a year and a half later. Others 6 months later. Its how I roll.  

I am a mood reader, so its the main reason I have not gotten to them yet.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

I also cancelled my KU subscription, mainly because of the continuing problems many of us are experiencing with page reads. The way I read, I'm sure some page reads weren't registering. 

As a reader, I always read or at least tried to read, my KU books first so I did keep them circulating.


----------



## Atunah

Lynn is a pseud--uh said:


> Me too. Which is just one more reason why I don't do KU as a reader. I'm in the middle of many, _many_ books. I would end up having to return stuff all the time that I really wanted to finish someday just because I need more space to borrow. In fact, I do that with library books all the time. And it's stressful in one sense because I'm sure there are good books I've just forgotten all about that I didn't finish reading.


I am more of a one book at a time kind of reader so that isn't an issue for me. I might at times start 3 or so, if I can't figure out what mood I am in. 
I know some KU readers just get a bunch of books, check a page, return, get the next batch. Doesn't cost them more. I do see readers like that out there quite a bit. But they just grab stuff if it looks interesting. I vet everything so I know kind of what I am getting. But 10 slots are plenty to fill up and keep a couple open for immediate rotation. 
But I mean if you have to keep returning, it doesn't really matter with KU. Its unlimited, so its like a buffet. I might be a tad more organized than the average KU reader, I don't know. I just always vet what I read no matter how I get the book on my kindle. Makes no difference to me. And if I am not in the mood for a specific subgenre, tone or theme, then I wait to read it. My last decision was between a SFR, a CR, a time travel or a historical mystery. I found that at the moment, I want to go back in time. Far far back in time. I might not leave again for some time.


----------



## JRTomlin

Mostly I have kind of binge read various genres. For a while I read just about every single medieval mystery I hadn't read (starting with KU but not limited to it). And then I felt like reading some regular mysteries. I just haven't been in the right mood for historical fiction although at some point I'll read a lot of those. I haven't at all wanted to read romances and those haven't even been going on my wish list, but probably eventually I'll decide to binge read romances.


----------



## Atunah

JRTomlin said:


> Mostly I have kind of binge read various genres. For a while I read just about every single medieval mystery I hadn't read (starting with KU but not limited to it). And then I felt like reading some regular mysteries. I just haven't been in the right mood for historical fiction although at some point I'll read a lot of those. I haven't at all wanted to read romances and those haven't even been going on my wish list, but probably eventually I'll decide to binge read romances.


I think I am going to start the binge reading. More of series binge reading. I just started a book in my favorite historical mystery and I had to go back the last to catch up as I forgot most of what happened. I read the last 2 years ago. The problem is that everything is in a series and I can't keep up. Then when I finally get back to one, I can't remember any of the action. Its driving me mad. Lots of series in KU so I guess plowing through those is an option. Otherwise I'll have to stop starting new series and go for either standalones, or short finished series of no more than 3-5 books.

I am following over 300 series in fictfact. Those are all series I have started, and I am caught up with very few of those. 
I need more reading hours in the day and a few more lifetimes.


----------



## 75845

Not only are those in KU holding onto books they take a long time to read, but some of us are reading books after leaving. All you need is a Kindle you don't mind turning to airplane mode after you download your last set of books. Today I've finally finished my first read through the Harry Potter series with most of the reading done since I left KU. I've also got a Jim Johnson and an Amanda Lee so I hope they get paid. I'm less concerned about Rowling, but it would be nice if Amazon slipped her the rightful wages as well. As you imagine the difference between when there was a ranking boost and when I actually read those books will be wide, and no page reads can be registered until I finish them all, because as soon I turn off airplane mode Amazon deletes all KU books from my Kindle.


----------



## Philip Gibson

Until recently, I never saw KENP page reads on my dashboard below 100 and never above 1,000.  Usually, they were in the 200 to 600 range.  That was until things started going wonky.  And now, my most recent my page reads have been:

247
257
17
0
1
1,304 (with 12 hours still to go)

It's the 1,304 page reads that makes me think something is changing (hopefully for the better).  It looks to me like an adjustment to compensate for previous days' reads not being recorded.

Could it be?

Philip


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Philip Gibson said:


> Until recently, I never saw KENP page reads on my dashboard below 100 and never above 1,000. Usually, they were in the 200 to 600 range. That was until things started going wonky. And now, my most recent my page reads have been:
> 
> 247
> 257
> 17
> 0
> 1
> 1,304 (with 12 hours still to go)
> 
> It's the 1,304 page reads that makes me think something is changing (hopefully for the better). It looks to me like an adjustment to compensate for previous days' reads not being recorded.
> 
> Could it be?
> 
> Philip


Sundays are my biggest days for page reads. Mondays are the second biggest. Depending on when the page reads were registered, I'm guessing those pages were actually finished late last night. When my Sunday rolls into Monday I get an absolutely huge bounce Monday mornings. That's on a consistent basis. At 1,304 pages, I'm going to guess that's about five total reads on books. Is that about right? I'm terrible at math so I apologize if it's wrong. I'm going on the 247 and 257 numbers, which makes me think those days were one total read (from front to back). The problem is that dropping from those numbers to one, 17 or 0 isn't that big of a shift if you're talking about one or two reads a day. I'm not saying it's not a big deal to you, but when you're talking about 1-5 readers on any given day those numbers can make fluctuations appear wild when they might not actually be wild.


----------



## Philip Gibson

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Sundays are my biggest days for page reads. Mondays are the second biggest. Depending on when the page reads were registered, I'm guessing those pages were actually finished late last night. When my Sunday rolls into Monday I get an absolutely huge bounce Monday mornings. That's on a consistent basis. At 1,304 pages, I'm going to guess that's about five total reads on books. Is that about right? I'm terrible at math so I apologize if it's wrong. I'm going on the 247 and 257 numbers, which makes me think those days were one total read (from front to back). The problem is that dropping from those numbers to one, 17 or 0 isn't that big of a shift if you're talking about one or two reads a day. I'm not saying it's not a big deal to you, but when you're talking about 1-5 readers on any given day those numbers can make fluctuations appear wild when they might not actually be wild.


Yes, you are right. That 1,304 number would be around 5 books read cover to cover. That has never happened which is why I think it may be an adjustment accounting for the previous days' reads not being recorded.

Philip


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## SomeoneElse

Philip Gibson said:


> Yes, you are right. That 1,304 number would be around 5 books read cover to cover. That has never happened which is why I think it may be an adjustment accounting for the previous days' reads not being recorded.
> 
> Philip


I have fluctuations like that all the time. I won't rule out any kind of 'adjustment,' although I didn't see one, but it could just be that someone binge-read 5 of your books. My best days are always when someone power-reads through my series. Alternatively, someone could have read the pages over the last few days and then turned on their Wi-Fi on your 1304 day so Amazon collected the data.


----------



## tommy gun

I have read the entire thread over several days.
My brain is melting with all the information.

Am I correct in saying that it appears that the page reads issue MAY be partially being resolved?
I have a new series coming out that I wanted to explore KU with.  First book is out mid December.  I am feeling nervous about it but will still try for that first 90 days.  I can always go wide after.

Hoping that Amazon is starting to resolve these issues.


----------



## rickblackmon

tomgermann said:


> I have read the entire thread over several days.
> My brain is melting with all the information.
> 
> Am I correct in saying that it appears that the page reads issue MAY be partially being resolved?
> I have a new series coming out that I wanted to explore KU with. First book is out mid December. I am feeling nervous about it but will still try for that first 90 days. I can always go wide after.
> 
> Hoping that Amazon is starting to resolve these issues.


Mine have not gotten back to the pre sept 23 level, or anywhere near.


----------



## SomeoneElse

tomgermann said:


> I have read the entire thread over several days.
> My brain is melting with all the information.
> 
> Am I correct in saying that it appears that the page reads issue MAY be partially being resolved?
> I have a new series coming out that I wanted to explore KU with. First book is out mid December. I am feeling nervous about it but will still try for that first 90 days. I can always go wide after.
> 
> Hoping that Amazon is starting to resolve these issues.


From what I can gather, the majority of authors are either not being affected, or being affected so little that they don't notice it. For smaller-volume authors in particular, it can be hard to tell if a drop in reads is caused by normal things (time passing since last release etc.) or Amazon errors.

At this point, fewer people are commenting on the issues - there's really no way to tell if that means their issues have gone away or not. Perhaps they just got sick of talking about them.

If I were releasing a book now, I'd still release in KU and take that chance. If it tanks, as you say, you can go wide after 90 days, or even try your luck with the 'breach of contract' phrase to get them to release you sooner.


----------



## 9 Diamonds

Philip Gibson said:


> Until recently, I never saw KENP page reads on my dashboard below 100 and never above 1,000. Usually, they were in the 200 to 600 range. That was until things started going wonky. And now, my most recent my page reads have been:
> 
> 247
> 257
> 17
> 0
> 1
> 1,304 (with 12 hours still to go)
> 
> It's the 1,304 page reads that makes me think something is changing (hopefully for the better). It looks to me like an adjustment to compensate for previous days' reads not being recorded.
> 
> Could it be?
> 
> Philip


We had a similar adjustment last month and then afterwards things seemed okay, but only for a week. Now our pages read are uncommonly low. Today I withdrew all our titles from KU -- we're taking them wider with a big company who contacted us about distributing our catalog (current and forthcoming) into their network. Even if this hadn't happened, I'd still take all the titles out of KU until the whole KENP system is fixed.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

LSMay said:


> At this point, fewer people are commenting on the issues - there's really no way to tell if that means their issues have gone away or not. Perhaps they just got sick of talking about them.


I think we've all just given up expecting an explanation from Amazon.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I think we've all just given up expecting an explanation from Amazon.


I have. My longer work exits KU this December, and I'll have to learn how to distribute it using other means, like D2D. At least, as far as I know, the AMS ad campaign requirement that a work be in KU to advertise has been lifted. (Is this still so? Anyone know?)

Between the KU thing and the election results here in the U.S., I am in one hell of a depressed mood. Still, other folks have it worse. Double still: it makes motivating myself difficult. I've got another book almost finished and the thought of even opening the file in my word processor nauseates.

The one thing that keeps me going is the ability to post messages in forums frequented by intelligent people. If I didn't have that, I'd go nuts.


----------



## RubyMadden

I'm here to add that with two new releases in the last month, my borrows (pages read) are about 1/3rd what they typically should be...


----------



## rickblackmon

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I have. My longer work exits KU this December, and I'll have to learn how to distribute it using other means, like D2D. At least, as far as I know, the AMS ad campaign requirement that a work be in KU to advertise has been lifted. (Is this still so? Anyone know?)
> 
> Between the KU thing and the election results here in the U.S., I am in one hell of a depressed mood. Still, other folks have it worse. Double still: it makes motivating myself difficult. I've got another book almost finished and the thought of even opening the file in my word processor nauseates.
> 
> The one thing that keeps me going is the ability to post messages in forums frequented by intelligent people. If I didn't have that, I'd go nuts.


And I'd be there with you and the squirrels.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## tresero

It's funny. I've been around the tech business since the early 80's. Everyone thinks they are invincible when they are at the top.
Here are a few names, just to let you know how quickly things can, and will change. What that change will be, I don't know.

IBM
Wordstar
Lotus 123
Dbase
Wordperfect (had about 95% of the market before Word came along)
Microsoft (yeah, they are still big, but not what they were by any means.)
Xerox

I could continue, but you get the drift. I still don't know that Amazon is doing anything on purpose, I doubt it, but when a hole in the market appears, someone else will usually take it.

Apple appears to be unwilling, so they won't. B&N are pretty much toast. So, Kobo? I doubt it. Unfortunately at the moment Amazon has 99% of us by the short hairs. Yes, some will make more outside Amazon, but those are the exceptions, not even close to the rule.


----------



## David VanDyke

My page reads are recovering. The one thing that seems to have made a difference (I say _seems_ with no real proof, merely correlation) was stripping out all TOCs and all external links to make it less likely for readers to exit without closing the books.

I did have a BookBub three weeks ago, and it's possible some of the increase is merely read-through from that. Previous BBs caused much more immediate increases, so this seems anomalous, but perhaps it's a matter of people's Kindles being fuller this time around, and them taking more time to get to my books.

It's hard to isolate the signal from the noise.


----------



## Jericho

David VanDyke said:


> My page reads are recovering. The one thing that seems to have made a difference (I say _seems_ with no real proof, merely correlation) was stripping out all TOCs and all external links to make it less likely for readers to exit without closing the books.
> 
> It's hard to isolate the signal from the noise.


It _seems_ I'm seeing similar results as well for the exact same reason, minus the external links. I've left those for now. What is your formatting process/software? (curious for anyone who's having this issue and wants to respond)

Like you said, trying to isolate the signal.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

David VanDyke said:


> My page reads are recovering. The one thing that seems to have made a difference (I say _seems_ with no real proof, merely correlation) was stripping out all TOCs and all external links to make it less likely for readers to exit without closing the books.
> 
> I did have a BookBub three weeks ago, and it's possible some of the increase is merely read-through from that. Previous BBs caused much more immediate increases, so this seems anomalous, but perhaps it's a matter of people's Kindles being fuller this time around, and them taking more time to get to my books.
> 
> It's hard to isolate the signal from the noise.


I didn't have any external links in my books and I'm still not seeing much in the way of page reads.


----------



## David VanDyke

Jericho said:


> It _seems[i/] I'm seeing similar results as well for the exact same reason, minus the external links. I've left those for now. What is your formatting process/software? (curious for anyone who's having this issue and wants to respond)
> 
> Like you said, trying to isolate the signal.
> _


_

I use LiberWriter, which I guess codes my upload into HTML. I'm not all that tech-savvy._


----------



## rickblackmon

tresero said:


> It's funny. I've been around the tech business since the early 80's. Everyone thinks they are invincible when they are at the top.
> Here are a few names, just to let you know how quickly things can, and will change. What that change will be, I don't know.
> 
> IBM
> Wordstar
> Lotus 123
> Dbase
> Wordperfect (had about 95% of the market before Word came along)
> Microsoft (yeah, they are still big, but not what they were by any means.)
> Xerox
> 
> I could continue, but you get the drift. I still don't know that Amazon is doing anything on purpose, I doubt it, but when a hole in the market appears, someone else will usually take it.
> 
> Apple appears to be unwilling, so they won't. B&N are pretty much toast. So, Kobo? I doubt it. Unfortunately at the moment Amazon has 99% of us by the short hairs. Yes, some will make more outside Amazon, but those are the exceptions, not even close to the rule.


I have to disagree with you about IBM. I worked for them for forty years and draw a pension. They also pay for our health insurance. Their stock has gone up over $50 a share since I retired in 1996. They make more money than ever, but they aren't in a business that is prominent in the news. An excerpt from their 2015 Earnings Report: IBM is unique. It is the only company in our industry that has reinvented itself through multiple technology eras and economic cycles. Today, IBM is much more than a "hardware, software, services" company. IBM is now emerging as a cognitive solutions and cloud platform company. Today, the IBM data and analytics business is the industry leader, generating revenue of $18 billion in 2015. For the full year, we generated revenue of $81.7 billion, down 1 percent. We achieved operating earnings per share of $14.92 and delivered operating net income of $14.7 billion. And they have a female president!


----------



## tommy gun

Hi Rick, I think the previous point was companies get too big, lose focus and then get devoured (or at least get hurt) by the new smaller companies that can quickly respond to changes.

I ended up looking at a lot of cases like that in College then University.  Big companies CAN come back but are usually stuck in their ways and slowly die off.  
Not all companies but they are more susceptible to missing out on niches that they are not filling which leads to comp.
So IBM learned.
Stelco didnt, and at some point Apple with all the I's will take a hit.
It seems that Amazon can fall into that category too.  Fail at any one element for too long and someone else will move in if there is profit to be made.  But that needs to be identified early.

sorry just my 2 cents.


----------



## H.C.

Have any of the "big fish" taken action on this?


----------



## MajesticMonkey

Herefortheride said:


> Have any of the "big fish" taken action on this?


I've seen various big name romance authors who have notified readers they are pulling their books out (all this past week). Have even seen a few readers that are writing letters to Amazon because of this.


----------



## katrina46

tresero said:


> It's funny. I've been around the tech business since the early 80's. Everyone thinks they are invincible when they are at the top.
> Here are a few names, just to let you know how quickly things can, and will change. What that change will be, I don't know.
> 
> IBM
> Wordstar
> Lotus 123
> Dbase
> Wordperfect (had about 95% of the market before Word came along)
> Microsoft (yeah, they are still big, but not what they were by any means.)
> Xerox
> 
> I could continue, but you get the drift. I still don't know that Amazon is doing anything on purpose, I doubt it, but when a hole in the market appears, someone else will usually take it.
> 
> Apple appears to be unwilling, so they won't. B&N are pretty much toast. So, Kobo? I doubt it. Unfortunately at the moment Amazon has 99% of us by the short hairs. Yes, some will make more outside Amazon, but those are the exceptions, not even close to the rule.


I never understood why people always say B&N are toast. They were saying they wouldn't be around next year back in 2012, yet I get a payment from them every month. This month in particular, I'm doing very well. I once saw a post offering advice that said one of the things you should do is not worry about B&N because they won't be around this time next year. That post is a couple of years old now, I think. I'm glad I didn't listen to that advice, because I'd have missed out on 24 payments between then and now.


----------



## rickblackmon

tomgermann said:


> Hi Rick, I think the previous point was companies get too big, lose focus and then get devoured (or at least get hurt) by the new smaller companies that can quickly respond to changes.
> 
> I ended up looking at a lot of cases like that in College then University. Big companies CAN come back but are usually stuck in their ways and slowly die off.
> Not all companies but they are more susceptible to missing out on niches that they are not filling which leads to comp.
> So IBM learned.
> Stelco didnt, and at some point Apple with all the I's will take a hit.
> It seems that Amazon can fall into that category too. Fail at any one element for too long and someone else will move in if there is profit to be made. But that needs to be identified early.
> 
> sorry just my 2 cents.


I understood what he was doing. IBM remade itself several times. In the late 1950's, Tom Watson Sr, who was the founder didn't believe in computers and wanted to stay with the gray iron machines. His son, Tom Jr. saw it as the way of the future. The elder retired and Junior bet the company on computers. I started the next year. Coincidence? Maybe. Nah.. couldn't be.


----------



## Jericho

Jericho said:


> It _seems_ I'm seeing similar results as well for the exact same reason, minus the external links.


Spoke too soon. Still getting hit with "1 page reads" despite trying to figure it out on my end.


----------



## Jericho

Jericho said:


> Spoke too soon. Still getting hit with "1 page reads" despite trying to figure it out on my end.


----------



## Jericho

Jericho said:


> Spoke too soon. Still getting hit with "1 page reads" despite trying to figure it out on my end.


Meant to just modify the last post. But oh well. Since ECR said they'd call after 24 to 48 hours on Nov. 10th, and haven't, nor have they return my emails. They haven't clicked my links to the videos, the books I've tested are all in the same exact page read count as they were on Oct. 31, Nov. 1, Nov. 2 etc..., regardless of proof they've been read, and they've ignored, most other authors who've tried to notify them have been ignored or stonewalled or given the regular form letter, it's clear to me they aren't interested in a solution and are not concerned with how this is financially impacting the authors who provide Amazon's customers with content.

For those who say it's probably a _beta test_, like that's supposed to be all there is to it, Amazon at this point, after months and months of denials, are hurting those authors financially and legally not upholding their part of the deal. They've offered no solutions, and no remedies. If it is a beta test, and they're aware of the issue, and are aware how it's financially damaging to some authors but not others, they're playing favorites and diminishing the legal "level playing field." I'm sure this will be met with a barrage of shrugs from those who are not as heavily impacted by the missing funds, or it will be followed up with hostility by the Amazon apologists. I can't control that, I've tried all I can do to troubleshoot the problem from my end, but that's nearly impossible, when you know there's a problem, it's been denied, you've proven it, and aren't able to speak with the programmers for a solution and ECR claims they care when they clearly are just giving lip-service to the "outlying complainers." This is infuriating! I feel for those Aussies who are just getting involved or any other country who is about to be giving away their labor and efforts and skills for, no exaggeration, pennies. I think it may be petition time. This is outright b.s.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Jericho said:


> Spoke too soon. Still getting hit with "1 page reads" despite trying to figure it out on my end.


I'm not even getting the 1 page reads anymore. No page reads at all for 3 days, and since Oct 4th I've only had 2 sales.


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## Abalone

I'm just sitting here pretending there's an army of fluffy bunnies who use Kindles and are causing all this mess.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I'm doing a free promo on The Race this weekend. Is this glitch affecting the downloading of free books?


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I'm doing a free promo on The Race this weekend. Is this glitch affecting the downloading of free books?


Free downloads seem to be working as expected (for me, anyway). I had a FreeBooksy yesterday that did really well for me.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

PaulineMRoss said:


> Free downloads seem to be working as expected (for me, anyway). I had a FreeBooksy yesterday that did really well for me.


Thanks. Good to know. I'll report back after the weekend.


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## PhoenixS

**************


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## PhoenixS

**************


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## CozyReads

Jericho said:


> I think it may be petition time. This is outright b.s.


What kind of petition do you propose that would be more effective than authors repeatedly reporting the problem via email and phone? Amazon's not a democracy; it's a dictatorship. The only real way to protest missing pages read (and free yourself from the glitches) is to pull your books out of KU and publish them wide.


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## Jericho

CozyReads said:


> What kind of petition do you propose...


The kind of petition that states in clear language that (x) amount of signed authors are aware of a systematic problem with the page reads accounting, i.e. the payment structure in relation thereof, and (x) amount of authors have attempted to contact KDP and/or ECR (x) amount of times to no avail, and no solutions, or have received repeated reports of a non-issue in regard to data suggesting a systematic issue affecting page read results.

The kind of petition that asks, from a bunch of wild-eyed enthusiastic authors holding up a Ziploc bag with a goldfish named Flipper in one hand, and a list of standard partnership accountability demands in the other, "who's coming with me?" to a group of cubicle slaves with bored looks on their faces as they stare back blankly.


----------



## SomeoneElse

Jericho said:


> The kind of petition that states in clear language that (x) amount of signed authors are aware of a systematic problem with the page reads accounting, i.e. the payment structure in relation thereof, and (x) amount of authors have attempted to contact KDP and/or ECR (x) amount of times to no avail, and no solutions, or have received repeated reports of a non-issue in regard to data suggesting a systematic issue affecting page read results.
> 
> The kind of petition that asks, from a bunch of wild-eyed enthusiastic authors holding up a Ziploc bag with a goldfish named Flipper in one hand, and a list of standard partnership accountability demands in the other, "who's coming with me?" to a group of cubicle slaves with bored looks on their faces as they stare back blankly.


While I respect that you're trying to do something, I don't really see that working. They know - perhaps not exact numbers, but they know a lot of authors have contacted them a lot of times. They know they've told us nothing. They're deliberately telling us nothing, most likely on the advice of their legal team.

As to the problem, they either know a lot more than us, or they don't care, or both. I just can't see a petition changing their position on any of that.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I've been selling through KDP since 2010. It is now the 18th of the month and for the first time ever I haven't had a single sale or page read on .com (except for the experimental reads of Bheki) where I usually have the most sales  . I've had page reads on .UK and in India .
Stuck for words  .


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I've been selling through KDP since 2010. It is now the 18th of the month and for the first time ever I haven't had a single sale or page read on .com (except for the experimental reads of Bheki) where I usually have the most sales . I've had page reads on .UK and in India .
> Stuck for words .


Indeed. For more than a month now I've been wondering if I should start distrusting orders and sales _as well as_ the pages read.


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## Jackson Lear

My November has been dismal. I had 1 book in KU that averaged 8,000 - 16,000 monthly page reads since July (it's launch), but November has seen only 1,000. The last 2 weeks have had only 38 pages read.

So I ran a freebie to boost KU a little. I had 500 downloads and 0 pages read. That doesn't align with every other freebie I've tried in the past. There is *always* at least 1 person reading a page or two.

I also just launched a new book. I had decent purchases, nothing earth-shattering, but in July on day 1 I had 1,000 pages read. This launch? 0.

I sent an email to Amazon, got the typical response, and was expecting a big spike in page reads as they fixed whatever issue was plaguing me. Nope. No spike. 0 page reads.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Atlantisatheart said:


> Yep, I'm actually wondering the same thing myself. Sales are all over the place, but only on the ,com site, everywhere else it seems to be running near to normal.
> 
> I've just finished pulling all 117 books out of KU. I'd like to keep them in the UK and EU stores where things seem to be running to normal, but I don't think that's possible? Anybody know any different?


You could try selling by "Individual Territories" and unchecking just the U.S.; that might work. BTW, the ebook details pages in the Bookshelf have changed just recently, so you may not be aware of this option. May be worth trying on a couple of titles.

Er, scratch that. That would eliminate direct sales in the U.S. as well.


----------



## TellNotShow

Atlantisatheart said:


> Yep, I'm actually wondering the same thing myself. Sales are all over the place, but only on the ,com site, everywhere else it seems to be running near to normal.
> 
> I've just finished pulling all 117 books out of KU. I'd like to keep them in the UK and EU stores where things seem to be running to normal, but I don't think that's possible? Anybody know any different?


A bit late for the 117 books you already have, but it makes a good argument for uploading a UK version AND a US version in future, perhaps even using the appropriate spellings for each. More work, of course - but as different books with different ASINs you could certainly be in KU in the UK and not the US.


----------



## H.C.

My sales dropped off to close to zero over the past couple weeks but I'm still averaging 200-300 page reads every other day. My spreadsheet on page reads looks like shark teeth =  p  But it's consistent shark teeth. People seem to binge read through my book. Happy to be getting some type of action.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I don't believe it! I'm doing a FREE run on _The Race_ and the bestseller list is not even showing on the book's Amazon.com page.  It looks as if no one has ever downloaded the book on .com. I've refreshed the page several times with no luck. It's showing ok on the other sites. Not a single free download showing up to now.
A four-letter word comes to mind.

Product Details
File Size: 1338 KB
Print Length: 42 pages
Simultaneous Device Usage: Unlimited
Publisher: Just4kix Books (January 11, 2014)
Publication Date: January 11, 2014
Sold by: Amazon Digital Services LLC
Language: English
ASIN: B00D30CIJU
Text-to-Speech: Enabled 
X-Ray:
Not Enabled 
Word Wise: Enabled
Lending: Not Enabled
Enhanced Typesetting: Enabled

Would you like to give feedback on images or tell us about a lower price?

ETA It seems to be back  Phew.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


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## PhoenixS

**************


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

PhoenixS said:


> That happens a lot. Nothing to worry about . The book doesn't disappear from the bestseller lists where folk may be finding it. By the time folk get to the book's product page, they're usually not looking at its ranking the way rank-obsessed authors do  They're looking at the presentation, the Look Inside and the Reviews to make their final decision whether to download or not.


The free ranking on the book page has gone from #50,503 to #19,085 and I have ONE free download showing on my dashboard.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

It looks like the bit about being able to use AMS marketing without having to have the title in KU is now official:

Announcement: Advertising with Amazon Marketing Services Available to All KDP Authors

https://kdp.amazon.com/community/ann.jspa?annID=1192


----------



## johnpirillo

Is anyone considering a class action lawsuit against Amazon? Three months is a long time to let something like this go. I bet they wouldn't wait that long if it was their money being lost and not ours. It doesn't matter if it's only a small percentage being affected, it's still too many if it's only one! 

I've lost thousands and thousands of reads and I'm wondering if not sales as well now. 

Time to put the money where our mouths are.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

johnpirillo said:


> Is anyone considering a class action lawsuit against Amazon? Three months is a long time to let something like this go. I bet they wouldn't wait that long if it was their money being lost and not ours. It doesn't matter if it's only a small percentage being affected, it's still too many if it's only one!
> 
> I've lost thousands and thousands of reads and I'm wondering if not sales as well now.
> 
> Time to put the money where our mouths are.


You gave up your right to sue when you agreed to their TOS. At best you can buck for arbitration.


----------



## ......~......

johnpirillo said:


> I've lost thousands and thousands of reads and I'm wondering if not sales as well now.


Or maybe people just aren't reading/borrowing/buying what you're selling.


----------



## Jericho

Amanda M. Lee said:


> You gave up your right to sue when you agreed to their TOS. At best you can buck for arbitration.


*only spitballing this comment, in the interest of the wording and language in the legally binding materials presented.

From what I've read, this may be partially true, but not entirely true. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) You didn't give up your rights to sue. You did however agree not to sue in the form of a "class, consolidated or representative action..." however, you can sue individually. It will not go to court and it will be settled in arbitration by the "(AAA) American Arbitration Association" for amounts less than "$10,000," if I understand it correctly... and only in small claims, in the "court of the State of Washington, USA." (Of course, you'd have to be able to _prove_ how much you were due from accrued losses. With missing page reads this may be next to impossible.)

As stipulated in the contract no "representative action..." and because you'd be the prosecution, you have no rights to a lawyer under the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution, so you'd potentially have to represent yourself against Amazon's attorneys. (Again, please correct anything that is incorrect, I'm only engaging this conversation topic as a fun mental exercise.)

To file a lawsuit the claimant must file "within six-months" of the libel claims after the statement is available. So the window is still open as far as that goes on an individual basis, if it's been for the last three months, which could be a reason for the constant stalling with call centers or from Amazon in general. If the claims are found to be "frivolous" they can recoup attorney's fees from the prosecution, but would not do so "unless the arbitrator determines the claims are frivolous."

While there may be some caveats to these stipulations in the contract I'm sure they've covered their bases.

Outside of that, the exception that could potentially nullify some aspects of the contract (this is for conversation only, like a fan would who enjoys _ Law and Order_ a lot), are in the wording, here: "We will set, in our discretion, the criteria for determining how much of your content is read and how to determine the proportionate allocation of the fund..."

The part that is interesting is, they've determined and "set the criteria," i.e. the KENCP, "We use KENPC to measure the number of pages customers read in your book, starting with the Start Reading Location (SRL) to the end of your book." and it is determined by the "last page read" in theory "to be determined based on your share of total pages read by Kindle Unlimited (KU)", but they have failed to substantiate legitimately data that supports a "reader" has in fact accurately exited their ebook reader on the "last page read," and not in an area that would positively or negatively impact the page read accounting, i.e. on a page not attributed to the last page _physically_ read, accounting towards a KENCP total, i.e. by simply exiting on a page prior to the last page read, according to the criteria they've set. This in essence brings into question the standards for said criteria, i.e. the "last page read," and brings into question the page accounting reliability, "The new KENPC version will be applied uniformly to all KDP Select books and used to measure all pages read." mainly because the "last page read" is an acute mental activity, and not simply the physical act of exiting on the, "last page read," as the act of exiting the ereader is sometimes mutually exclusive with the criteria determination, while at other times mutually inclusive with the determination. (Obviously, I am not a lawyer and just find this stuff fun for entertainment purposes only)

I am aware of a pending class action against Amazon representing "Sellers," and some "buyers" who reported similar responses to their queries for similar issues regarding seller accounting when contacting the call center as others here have discussed. "When you call Seller Support, IF you can get someone who understands and can speak English, they just quote the canned reply...same with email. They don't actually listen or read or look into anything to see what the real problem is. And it always results in, "I'll pass your information on the correct department and they will be in touch with you shortly!" Apparently shortly is anywhere from 1 day to 3 weeks." *I have no idea if this has gone forward or has any legal standing, because I'm unaware of "Sellers" contractual stipulations.

However, I do recognize a call center pattern.

Is it possible there are methods to quell interest in pursing this issue in a unified manner, by those in this thread, or by agents in the call centers, with aims to dissuade authors from attempting other means of bringing attention to the problem (group activities, press, etc...), or from authors gaining remedies for unaccounted page reads, or from looking into the issue in any further substantial way, or for stalling beyond the "six month" window for litigation? Possibly.

The language of the contract certainly discourages a unified effort. And _some_ companies do hire out to firms, or employ agents internally, meant to quell online group dissension or interests or activities deemed negative towards the company. It does make one wonder though, why, whenever the topic of a unified effort arises a "concerned" poster quickly diminishes the topic, or attempts to redirect, either with unrelated information, hostility towards the querying poster, or excuses, or an overly concerned attitude for losses to Amazon, while maintaining a flippant disinterested dismissive attitude towards any interest shone towards author's losses, or any investigation thereof. Is it really because there is _nothing_ authors can do? Or is it because this is the preferred perception?

Perhaps, I've seen _House of Cards_ one too many times. Anyway thanks for playing.


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass

Jericho said:


> *only spitballing this comment, in the interest of the wording and language in the legally binding materials presented.
> 
> From what I've read, this may be partially true, but not entirely true. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) You didn't give up your rights to sue. You did however agree not to sue in the form of a "class, consolidated or representative action..." however, you can sue individually. It will not go to court and it will be settled in arbitration by the "(AAA) American Arbitration Association" for amounts less than "$10,000," if I understand it correctly... and only in small claims, in the "court of the State of Washington, USA." (Of course, you'd have to be able to _prove_ how much you were due from accrued losses. With missing page reads this may be next to impossible.)
> 
> As stipulated in the contract no "representative action..." and because you'd be the prosecution, you have no rights to a lawyer under the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution, so you'd potentially have to represent yourself against Amazon's attorneys. (Again, please correct anything that is incorrect, I'm only engaging this conversation topic as a fun mental exercise.)
> 
> To file a lawsuit the claimant must file "within six-months" of the libel claims after the statement is available. So the window is still open as far as that goes on an individual basis, if it's been for the last three months, which could be a reason for the constant stalling with call centers or from Amazon in general. If the claims are found to be "frivolous" they can recoup attorney's fees from the prosecution, but would not do so "unless the arbitrator determines the claims are frivolous."
> 
> While there may be some caveats to these stipulations in the contract I'm sure they've covered their bases.
> 
> Outside of that, the exception that could potentially nullify some aspects of the contract (this is for conversation only, like a fan would who enjoys _ Law and Order_ a lot), are in the wording, here: "We will set, in our discretion, the criteria for determining how much of your content is read and how to determine the proportionate allocation of the fund..."
> 
> The part that is interesting is, they've determined and "set the criteria," i.e. the KENCP, "We use KENPC to measure the number of pages customers read in your book, starting with the Start Reading Location (SRL) to the end of your book." and it is determined by the "last page read" in theory "to be determined based on your share of total pages read by Kindle Unlimited (KU)", but they have failed to substantiate legitimately data that supports a "reader" has in fact accurately exited their ebook reader on the "last page read," and not in an area that would positively or negatively impact the page read accounting, i.e. on a page not attributed to the last page _physically_ read, accounting towards a KENCP total, i.e. by simply exiting on a page prior to the last page read, according to the criteria they've set. This in essence brings into question the standards for said criteria, i.e. the "last page read," and brings into question the page accounting reliability, "The new KENPC version will be applied uniformly to all KDP Select books and used to measure all pages read." mainly because the "last page read" is an acute mental activity, and not simply the physical act of exiting on the, "last page read," as the act of exiting the ereader is sometimes mutually exclusive with the criteria determination, while at other times mutually inclusive with the determination. (Obviously, I am not a lawyer and just find this stuff fun for entertainment purposes only)
> 
> I am aware of a pending class action against Amazon representing "Sellers," and some "buyers" who reported similar responses to their queries for similar issues regarding seller accounting when contacting the call center as others here have discussed. "When you call Seller Support, IF you can get someone who understands and can speak English, they just quote the canned reply...same with email. They don't actually listen or read or look into anything to see what the real problem is. And it always results in, "I'll pass your information on the correct department and they will be in touch with you shortly!" Apparently shortly is anywhere from 1 day to 3 weeks." *I have no idea if this has gone forward or has any legal standing, because I'm unaware of "Sellers" contractual stipulations.
> 
> However, I do recognize a call center pattern.
> 
> Is it possible there are methods to quell interest in pursing this issue in a unified manner, by those in this thread, or by agents in the call centers, with aims to dissuade authors from attempting other means of bringing attention to the problem (group activities, press, etc...), or from authors gaining remedies for unaccounted page reads, or from looking into the issue in any further substantial way, or for stalling beyond the "six month" window for litigation? Possibly.
> 
> The language of the contract certainly discourages a unified effort. And _some_ companies do hire out to firms, or employ agents internally, meant to quell online group dissension or interests or activities deemed negative towards the company. It does make one wonder though, why, whenever the topic of a unified effort arises a "concerned" poster quickly diminishes the topic, or attempts to redirect, either with unrelated information, hostility towards the querying poster, or excuses, or an overly concerned attitude for losses to Amazon, while maintaining a flippant disinterested dismissive attitude towards any interest shone towards author's losses, or any investigation thereof. Is it really because there is _nothing_ authors can do? Or is it because this is the preferred perception?
> 
> Perhaps, I've seen _House of Cards_ one too many times. Anyway thanks for playing.


1. You are always entitled to a lawyer. You just have to pay for them yourself. Or get them to work on contingency based compensation.
2. If you can find a lawyer willing to take this case. Please let us know. I don't think you will be able to. The amount of money involved is too small and the KU contract too well written. 
3. You will have to prove that pages were not read in accordance with what Amazon determines as page reads. Not what you think should be page reads. In other words. Because the contract says that Amazon has discretion of what constitutes page reads, they get to choose the process/parameters. You will have to prove that Amazon broke their own process not that they are using the wrong process.
3. You have the option of leaving KU at the end or 3 months. Or you can ask to leave early.

I am not saying that it is fair, or right. I am saying this is the way it is. Law suits are not going to work. The only thing that would make Amazon change their process is if enough authors left KU to upset Amazon's customers.


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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## johnpirillo

Or maybe people just aren't reading/borrowing/buying what you're selling.

No, actually I've given away over two thousand ebooks over this last three month period and while I have seen some spikes in sales commiserate with that, the reads have remained absymally small, when in the past the sales would jump significantly and reads dramatically so.

Doesn't make sense to me. I am releasing new material on a regular basis and get good feedback from it, so this is all the more confusing. Thanks anyway, guys. I guess I just got lucky with my work at the WRONG time. Oh well!


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## Gertie Kindle

Atlantisatheart said:


> I'd like to play.
> 
> Personally, what I would do would be to immediately file for all specs on their algorithms and all related programmes used to assess pages read and calculate rankings - under full disclosure to be able to better assess how Amazon works and be able to explain it in arbitration, of course - just to watch their heads spin around uncontrollably and their eyes swivel in their heads.
> 
> I would assume they would settle rather rapidly then.
> 
> Just a thought.


No, Amazon would fight tooth and nail to protect their algorithms, etc. And they would probably win.


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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Gertie Kindle

Atlantisatheart said:


> If you were Amazon would you not rather settle than risk having the algo's out there? I know I would.


That's not the way it works. Your first clue that they will fight is that they haven't admitted there's anything wrong.

Another thing. If you do get an attorney to act on contingency, you'll most likely have to pay expenses up front. Amazon has much deeper pockets than any of us do.


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## Joshua Guess

So I've only discovered this post the last few days, but I have an interesting update. It's mostly circumstantial but pretty weird anyway. 

I was facing some of the problems mentioned in this thread myself: odd reporting, weird dips in pages read, all kinds of stuff. I'm bordering on not being able to write full-time as it is, and these things hit me like a truck made of bad news. 

After reading the first thirty or so pages of this thread, I sent the expected email to KDP. I got the same canned response today--we've looked at your account, etc--from the executive customer relations people. My reads have picked back up, which I kind of expected given I'm running a couple promos at the moment, but it seems weird that after three straight days of flat reads, it would pick up after someone looked at my account. Probably pure coincidence. 

What's making me scratch my head is that I'm now seeing hourly updates after 9 PM EST. I know because the Zon is set on GMT or whatever, the three hours between nine and midnight are the dead zone for page reads. Yet tonight they're chugging along, new one added every hour. That's a first. 

I have to think something on the back end is going on, just like the rest of you, and that the act of checking accounts is resetting something. Maybe the people doing it are even deliberately making a change of some kind. We have no way of knowing. Yet there is a difference. The counting of page reads between nine and midnight is totally new for me. I don't know what it means, if anything, but it's making me theorycraft all over the place. Except I'm not at all a tech dude, so I have nowhere to go but in circles.


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## hopecartercan

What Writes at Midnight said:


> Hi Joshua,
> 
> That's interesting. I can tell you that this atypical adding of page reads during these hours has been going on with me, too, intermittently. I don't have a call in to support. I'm not saying the link you see is coincidental, but it might be. Or it might be that they reset something that's getting you up to speed.
> 
> It's not a complete catch-up, though. The midnight page reads dump is still happening on my end.
> 
> It certainly seems as if Amazon is working with more than one data set on several fronts.


Same thing's happening to me, too. I used to get no page reads from 8PM-Midnight EST. Now they trickling in from 8-12. Then I get a smaller dump at @ 12:30. And no, I haven't contacted the Zon about fishiness with my account--even though I should have.


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## tresero

I'm on PST and I haven't had a page read increase since 7 PST, or 10 PST. I've been stuck at around 20k for the day as usual. I will get some sales as well around midnight.


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## G.L. Snodgrass

Atlantisatheart said:


> I'd like to play.
> 
> Personally, what I would do would be to immediately file for all specs on their algorithms and all related programmes used to assess pages read and calculate rankings - under full disclosure to be able to better assess how Amazon works and be able to explain it in arbitration, of course - just to watch their heads spin around uncontrollably and their eyes swivel in their heads.
> 
> I would assume they would settle rather rapidly then.
> 
> Just a thought.


I understand. But, just because you file for information. A judge doesn't have to grant it and usually wont unless you can show a very good reason. They do not like fishing expeditions. Also, Amazon would bury you under paperwork, and then appeal any undesired rulings. it would take years. for 3 months of lost income. This is why a lawyer wouldn't take the case. Their isn't enough in damages to justify the cost of pursuing the case.

And, even if by some miracle you did get access to the algorhythm being used at the time. Amazon could change the algorhythm from that point forward.

Amazon wouldn't settle. They'd drag it out as long as possible then change the formula.


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## Anna Drake

Folks, KU for some of us appears to be dead. For what reason, I don't know, but no amount of whining or begging or threatening  is going to change the parent company's mind. Are they running a test or are they simply down on some of us, or is this some sort of great cosmic accident? Who knows, and they certainly aren't going to tell us. I've done the only thing that seems to make sense. I've bid them adieu. Going wide is way more complex, but it still offers us a chance to stay in the game. I am interested, though, for those of us who have experienced this downturn, what path are you plotting?

Me? I've put one book out through D2D and Smashwords. I added a second book this morning. I wish us all luck.


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## David VanDyke

Some page reads have suddenly started showing up since the GMT cutoff. Perhaps they've changed something in the algo. There's still a smaller jump at midnight.


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## Sailor Stone

I'm trying to figure out what I should expect for pages read compared to books sold so I can get an average/ratio for each book I have in KU. I was thinking it would help point out when I may not be getting credit for pages read when I should be. I remember having some one page read days on one of my books earlier this summer and I thought it was odd. I'd like to investigate it further but have nothing to compare what I have to what is "normal". Does anybody already have any data on how many pages read they average per book sale?


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

TwistedTales said:


> Interestingly, since many of our books are no longer available in KU our sales on Amazon are improving again, especially for those books no longer in KU. It implies some KU members are buying books.


I think that's true, and I'm pulling all of mine out of auto-renewal. Until we hear that KU's been fixed, for those of us who've gotten hosed, KU is useless anyway.


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## PearlEarringLady

TwistedTales said:


> - demanded authors admit to fraud on the off-chance they'll reopen their accounts once closed


Whoa - really? Not heard that one before.


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## johnpirillo

I could go on, but when you look at everything that's happened in the past year it's pretty awful. We're treated like trash and tomorrow they could do something else that will wipe out another group of author's earnings without warning. Remember the introduction of KU2.0? They wiped out legitimate shorts authors with that. 

Could you explain what you meant by "They wiped out legitimate shorts authors with that." Are you talking about a few, or the majority or what?


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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Atlantisatheart said:


> I now write novellas of 30-35,000 and novels of 55-65,000.


On the 30k-35k items, do they actually sell? And, what do you price them as? (If I'm being too nosy, just say so.)


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## Laran Mithras

I have around 80 books between two pennames. Sales in my erotica line have been increasing substantially since September. Page reads have fallen over 50% during the same time-frame. On my vanilla books, page reads dropped to zero with several onesies never completing page reads (unusual). For example, one particular story sells one or two a month, and page reads are always 145 pages for each borrow - I don't think I've ever had less than 100% page read-through on it. Back in September, a page count of 3 showed up and then nothing - and nothing _since_.

I definitely think something is going on, especially considering my erotica sales are increasing substantially while my page reads are falling just as dramatically. Every couple of weeks since early September, I get odd page-read spikes that pop back to where my pre-September average was. But even those few odd days are only the average for pre-September, not my growth line. I should be having page reads in the 4,000s (based on 3 years of sales averages), not hovering down at 1100.

As a result, I de-listed all of my erotica books from KU, with the last due to fall out in January. *KU isn't worth the hassle* and something smells very bad to me here about Zon's apparent lackluster pursuit of whatever this problem is. Just hearing about the "admit fraud" emails tells me the attorneys know something is bad and Amazon liable, so they get these authors to basically forfeit litigation by admitting fraud.

Something really, really stinks here.


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## notjohn

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> 3. One truly troubling aspect is the possibility that _orders_ and _sales_ are somehow affected. Notjohn, a long-time poster over on the KDP forums, reports that his paperback (CreateSpace) sales are overtaking his e-book sales, a truly bizarre result. How a straight sale could be affected by KU software I have no idea. We could be seeing a whole separate problem here. I hope not, but I'm at the point where I, myself, have become suspicious of the accuracy of the Orders graph.


 I write mostly non-fiction, and some of it is fairly difficult, so it's rational to spend ten dollars on a book you can thumb through and mark up, rather than five dollars on a digital version. So I don't think my result is bizarre.

But interesting, yes, it certainly is. While my Amazon sales have fallen quite sharply in September, October, and November, that isn't nearly as noticeable on Apple and Barnes & Noble. And my paperback sales have, if anything increased. Last month I had two books that sold twice as many copies on Createspace (all Amazon sales, as it happens; the Expanded Distribution sales seem to come in spurts, several months apart) as Kindle editions on Amazon.com. And most books that sold in both formats (I have 26 Kindle books, only 11 Createspace editions) did indeed sell better in print than on KDP US store. The exceptions were three novels.

Adding all markets together (Amazon.com, the other-country Kindle stores, Google Play, and Draft2Digital), I still probably sell more e-books than paperbacks. But not by much, and not nearly as much in earlier months and years.

I don't have any opinion on Kindle Unlimited and pages-read, because I don't have any books in Select this year.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## J.A. Sutherland

Jericho said:


> Outside of that, the exception that could potentially nullify some aspects of the contract (this is for conversation only, like a fan would who enjoys _ Law and Order_ a lot), are in the wording, here: "We will set, in our discretion, the criteria for determining how much of your content is read and how to determine the proportionate allocation of the fund..."


This is the key phrase that makes the discussion relatively moot: "... in our discretion ...". They get to decide. If they decide, in their discretion, that page flip reads count as 1, or that going back to page 1 counts as 1, for pages read, then that's it. The contract is that they get to decide and modify how the pool is split up.


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## Laran Mithras

In response to some of the posts that followed mine, I have also seen an increase in actual paperback sales (CreateSpace) that coincides with my increasing Kindle sales.

Yet the page reads are decreasing. If all were equal, I should be seeing 4500+ page reads per day. Instead, I am hovering (no matter the new release) at 1100. I find it odd.

I will admit that perhaps KU subscribers are leaving the program. But really, that just means the program is failing and most of us shouldn't be in it, anyway.


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## Gator

TwistedTales said:


> In theory, you can sue anyone for anything. You might be thrown out of court within the first five nanoseconds, but I believe anyone can pitch a law suit. Remember the person who sued McDonalds because their coffee was too hot? Or the class action claiming a food chain made them overweight. I don't think any of them got anywhere.


Stella Liebeck got some money out of it. In _Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants_, the jury awarded millions in compensatory and punitive damages, but the judge reduced both in 1994. Both McDonald's and Liebeck appealed and then settled out of court for an undisclosed amount less than $600,000.


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## Alpaca Lou

TwistedTales said:


> There are some grey areas in the law around what's considered reasonable and implied. In theory, you can sue anyone for anything. You might be thrown out of court within the first five nanoseconds, but I believe anyone can pitch a law suit. Remember the person who sued McDonalds because their coffee was too hot? Or the class action claiming a food chain made them overweight. I don't think any of them got anywhere.


The McDonald's coffee lawsuit was actually very legitimate. She lost 5% of her skin (3rd degree burns requiring skin grafts, including her groin region,) had burns on 16% of her body, was disabled for 2 years. 3rd degree burns in the groin region is a pretty big deal; the sensation nerves do not come back.

They made the coffee about 180 degrees Fahrenheit, which can completely burn through human skin in 12 seconds, as happened to 5% of her skin. Meanwhile, home brewed coffee and many other restaurants served it at around 140 degrees, which is still hot but you'd have more time to get it off and avoid permanent disfigurement. Her 1980s car had no cup holder, so she held the coffee between her legs, and I'm not sure if the lid was properly attached.

The "fast food made me fat" lawsuits were ridiculous, but the hot coffee lawsuit was not, in my view.


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## JRTomlin

As has already been pointed out, she didn't sue because 'it was too hot'. She sued because when she spilled it, it caused 3rd degree burns - a burn so severe it destroys the skin through the depth of the dermis and into underlying tissues. There is absolutely no reason on earth for coffee to be served at that temperature. Coffee served at a normal temperature will usually only cause a 1st degree burn.

It was a fantastic PR job that MacDonald's managed to turn into the victim into the bad guy in the case. I have always been struck by the skill this took.


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## phoenixwaller

I forget where I saw a more in-depth about that lawsuit, but she wasn't the first who was hurt or complained either. Her attorneys did a good job of tracking down so many previously filed complaints about the coffee being too hot to prove that McD's knew it was a problem and ignored it.


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## LeonardDHilleyII

phoenixwaller said:


> I forget where I saw a more in-depth about that lawsuit, but she wasn't the first who was hurt or complained either. Her attorneys did a good job of tracking down so many previously filed complaints about the coffee being too hot to prove that McD's knew it was a problem and ignored it.


I watched this video clip about the case on Youtube the other day:


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## Gissel Escudero

I'm warning my fellow Spanish and Latin authors about this issue, and they've also noticed the huge drop in read pages. In the meantime, I'm pulling out all my books from KU. Has anyone here tried selling through and author blog using a third party like Sellfy? I'm going to do that with premium editions (they'll have extra content like short stories and free wallpapers). I've asked my readers and they seem willing to buy directly from me.


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## J.A. Sutherland

TwistedTales said:


> I have to admit I don't remember much about the case and in my flaky recall it was a guy who sued! I also didn't remember what happened in either case. My only takeaway was you can sue for anything, legitimate or otherwise.
> 
> In response to anyone saying you can't pitch a lawsuit against Amazon, I think you can. Whether it's worth the time, money and effort or not is another matter.


Of course you can sue.

The fundamental difference between the cases sited and suing Amazon, though, is that KU authors agreed to a contract in which they've, effectively, given Amazon the sole discretionary power to decide what's paid and how it's calculated.

There's no valid cause of action and no damage to sue for.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

I've figured it all out, folks, and it's the fault of many authors here who've been clamoring for the feature for a long time.

The reason KU pages aren't being paid?  It's Amazon's version of Permafree!

Okay, so I'm in a weird mood this a.m. ...


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## LeonardDHilleyII

Gissel Escudero said:


> I'm warning my fellow Spanish and Latin authors about this issue, and they've also noticed the huge drop in read pages. In the meantime, I'm pulling out all my books from KU. Has anyone here tried selling through and author blog using a third party like Sellfy? I'm going to do that with premium editions (they'll have extra content like short stories and free wallpapers). I've asked my readers and they seem willing to buy directly from me.


 As soon as mine drop out of KU, it's doubtful I'll return to KU. Still getting 1 page 'reads,' and I like your suggestion of selling from a blog. I plan to look into doing this via my website.


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## J.A. Sutherland

TwistedTales said:


> They are different cases and I only quote them as examples of cases that have been attempted, successfully or otherwise. I'm not saying it's worth the trouble and expense, but there is an implied agreement in every contract. If anyone believes the intent has been abused or there's the possibility of fraudulent actions then maybe there's an opening there, but you'd need to engage a lawyer to know whether it'd have any legs.
> 
> I wouldn't bother, but stranger things have happened.


There's an _explicit_ agreement in every contract and it's what's spelled out in the contract -- that's why we have them, after all.  This contract was pretty clear.


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## GoneToWriterSanctum

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> As soon as mine drop out of KU, it's doubtful I'll return to KU. Still getting 1 page 'reads,' and I like your suggestion of selling from a blog. I plan to look into doing this via my website.


I dropped out of KU back in December-January. I didn't like having all of my eggs in one basket, and I felt that I was ignoring other readers.

Glad now that I did.


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## Gissel Escudero

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> As soon as mine drop out of KU, it's doubtful I'll return to KU. Still getting 1 page 'reads,' and I like your suggestion of selling from a blog. I plan to look into doing this via my website.


I'm suggesting the direct sales experiment to other authors. Like, it's OUR readers we're talking about. They should be OUR clients. Seems like Amazon is taking too much and giving too little. Not even visibility. I bet I get more people to see my books on my blog than Amazon does on its site. Specially now that there is one page per region (with reviews and sales scattered here and there instead of being all together for more impact).


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## Arches

TwistedTales said:


> They are different cases and I only quote them as examples of cases that have been attempted, successfully or otherwise. I'm not saying it's worth the trouble and expense, but there is an implied agreement in every contract. If anyone believes the intent has been abused or there's the possibility of fraudulent actions then maybe there's an opening there, but you'd need to engage a lawyer to know whether it'd have any legs.
> 
> I wouldn't bother, but stranger things have happened.


Here's some free legal advice--don't sue Amazon. Stay in KU or go; stay in CreateSpace or go; and stay in the Kindle Store or go, but suing is crazy.


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## RubyMadden

RubyMadden said:


> I'm here to add that with two new releases in the last month, my borrows (pages read) are about 1/3rd what they typically should be...


Email I sent to KDP today...
----------------------------------

Dear KDP,

I'm writing to voice my concerns about the pages read issue that is widespread for many authors 
>> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242225.0.html <<.

The pages read are substantially lower than is typical for my latest two releases 
(ASIN's: ###### & ########). Despite nearly $$$ put into advertising over the last few weeks, 
neither of these titles have earned back anywhere near what other individual titles did, in the past year. 
Something is wrong. Earlier titles have far outperformed in pages read. I recently learned that I'm not 
the only author affected.

Due to this, I have deselected my titles from being renewed in the KU program until this widespread matter 
is resolved.

I hope you'll investigate this matter and value the content providers that we are for your KU platform.

Sincerely,

Ruby

_[Note: ASIN #'s removed and $ amount put into advertising]_


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## sela

Gissel Escudero said:


> I'm suggesting the direct sales experiment to other authors. Like, it's OUR readers we're talking about. They should be OUR clients. Seems like Amazon is taking too much and giving too little. Not even visibility. I bet I get more people to see my books on my blog than Amazon does on its site. Specially now that there is one page per region (with reviews and sales scattered here and there instead of being all together for more impact).


While I really love the idea of direct sales, it means that your readers have to be so loyal that they are willing to jump through yet another hoop to buy your books.

They have to go to your website and use whatever purchasing system you have put in place to buy your books. Then, they will have to receive the digital book in the right format for their reading preferences -- ePub, Mobi, PDF, etc. Plus, how do they find your book in the first place? You can use advertising of course, but you lose out on the organic sales via Amazon's amazing algorithms.

Amazon is so successful because it makes it so easy to find and buy books. Plain and simple.

Your existing readers, many of whom find you via Amazon's search engine, buy your books using Amazon's very easy retail interface. They can search for books and buy all on the same platform. Their books magically appear in their Kindle App or device and they can read immediately.

Until you can provide the same value to your readers, or some competitive advantage, you will only have a few really hardcore readers willing to buy from your website.

Think of it -- they will have to enter information on your website in order to pay, they will have to download your digital book and then they will have to load it onto their device or into their reading app / machine. That's a lot of extra work for each reader/customer considering they have already done so for Amazon.

The only way I could see this working well would be if you have a LOT of existing hardcore readers, have a great mailing list, have a great store interface, and can charge much less than Amazon does. For example, if your book is currently $4.99 on Amazon, you could charge $3.49 on your site. You would have to add in the cost of the transaction, which varies, depending on the merchant software you use. Then, you would have to have some kind of system set up that sends them the eBook in the proper format for their particular reading device / preferences. Will you accept returns? What about the effect on sales visibility on Amazon if you funnel off a lot of readers from their platform? Sure, a launch may result in a number of direct sales, but those will not be recorded by Amazon and so won't affect your visibility on that platform.

These are all things to keep in mind when moving forward with a store on your website.

I think Amazon has the market cornered for a reason -- they offer fantastic service and selection. Until we can beat that, or offer some really significant incentive to make our own website stores more attractive, Amazon will be an essential tool in the indie author's business. The key is to figure out how to perform really well on Amazon. It sucks that they hold all the cards, and control the table, but that's the way it is. We have to work around and with them to be successful.


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## RubyMadden

I agree with most everything you said, but I no longer agree about this...

*"Amazon is so successful because it makes it so easy to find and buy books. Plain and simple."*

As a reader, I find that there is so much junk weighing down the Top 100's that finding new stuff is a challenge. Plenty of good books get lost in the Amazon jungle, with algorithms over-favoriting certain titles, authors and tropes. Instead of opening up their Top 100's to Top 200's or Top 300's, they've siloed what's available. Most customers (readers) are complaining about using search terms (key words) to find what types of books they want to read with irrelevant titles showing up in the searches.


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## SomeoneElse

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> As soon as mine drop out of KU, it's doubtful I'll return to KU. Still getting 1 page 'reads,' and I like your suggestion of selling from a blog. I plan to look into doing this via my website.


My theory is 1 page reads are part of a new system for counting reads. On several occasions, I've had low selling books that I've seen with one page read, and a few hours (or one time a few days) later the rest of the pages come through for that borrow (this is on low selling books where I know there weren't other borrows within at least a week of that borrow.)

I know others have had issues when they don't get the rest of the pages - with my own, I don't think that has happened since September (although I have one page read on a book yesterday that's yet to turn into more.) But if anyone out there is seeing a few one page reads at times, but normal numbers overall, I don't think they need to worry. Of course, if you never get the rest of the pages, then you have an issue.

I've wondered if a book naturally registers a page when opened on certain devices, and I even considered that it's a way of recording the time you start a book and the time you finish it (because if it only took you 2 minutes, you're probably a bot or a scammer), but that's all speculation. I don't get 1 page first for every copy of a book - it might depend if people read with Wi-Fi on or not?


----------



## sela

RubyMadden said:


> I agree with most everything you said, but I no longer agree about this...
> 
> *"Amazon is so successful because it makes it so easy to find and buy books. Plain and simple."*
> 
> As a reader, I find that there is so much junk weighing down the Top 100's that finding new stuff is a challenge. Plenty of good books get lost in the Amazon jungle, with algorithms over-favoriting certain titles, authors and tropes. Instead of opening up their Top 100's to Top 200's or Top 300's, they've siloed what's available. _*Most customers (readers) are complaining about using search terms (key words) to find what types of books they want to read with irrelevant titles showing up in the searches.*_


While Amazon may not work as well for you personally, it continues to work well enough to please a whole whack load of readers so much so that Amazon keeps dominating. I think a lot of us authors are frustrated with Amazon's search function because of the way other authors abuse the keyword system and exploit the loopholes to try to get their books at the front of the queue. I seriously doubt that most customers are complaining about using search terms or else Amazon would do something to address it. I would love to see evidence that readers are complaining, because then something might be done. Amazon takes its customers seriously. We authors are not customers. We're suppliers. Suppliers have margins that Amazon sees as their opportunity.

Unless its services really fall in quality so that readers go elsewhere for their books, it will continue to dominate. What we need is a fantastic competitor to come along who disrupts Amazon. I don't think that will happen anytime soon. The ones who could compete with Amazon either can't or won't do so seriously.

We're stuck.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Sela, lots of people *shop* elsewhere for their products and then go to Amazon to buy them. This isn't restricted to book purchases by any means, but we've had readers in WC tell us that they do not use Amazon to search for books. They rely on Goodreads and the book blogs and newsletters instead.

I have a theory that this is why we've been seeing a diminishing return on promotions, lately. We see a sharp spike as people who get the promotion go in and get the book, followed by an exponential decay to the same ranking as before. The simplest explanation for that type of behavior is that there just aren't as many readers using the genre top 100 lists to shop for books anymore. We get downloads from the readers who see the promotion and a trickle of organic downloads from the few people left using Amazon as their search tool, but not enough of them to make the books stick unless you can get into the store top 100 list or one of the really popular genre lists like the main romance category.


----------



## Atunah

I never use the top 100 to look for books as they don't usually contain the stuff I like reading. I also don't browse on Amazon anymore for books. I used to, extensively. But because of all the keyword stuffing and books being stuffed into wrong categories and all the scammers, it has become useless to me. Its especially bad in romance. 
So I use other readers recommendations from boards, blogs and also goodreads. All of those still get me to then buy the book from Amazon, I just don't browse on Amazon. I like my books in one place and wouldn't want to give all my info to a bunch of authors out there to be honest. The less places have my address and CC info, the better. Seems that everytime I get a book from a place not Amazon, if falls into some well in my calibre somewhere. And unless I think about using the send to kindle applet, I forget about those books if I don't see them on my kindle in my cloud. Even then they show up as docs and don't have a cover so don't look as professional as Amazon purchased books. 

So yeah, not even for my most favorite authors would I buy from someones website.


----------



## Jill Nojack

Atunah said:


> I never use the top 100 to look for books as they don't usually contain the stuff I like reading. I also don't browse on Amazon anymore for books. I used to, extensively. But because of all the keyword stuffing and books being stuffed into wrong categories and all the scammers, it has become useless to me. Its especially bad in romance.
> So I use other readers recommendations from boards, blogs and also goodreads. All of those still get me to then buy the book from Amazon, I just don't browse on Amazon. I like my books in one place and wouldn't want to give all my info to a bunch of authors out there to be honest. The less places have my address and CC info, the better. Seems that everytime I get a book from a place not Amazon, if falls into some well in my calibre somewhere. And unless I think about using the send to kindle applet, I forget about those books if I don't see them on my kindle in my cloud. Even then they show up as docs and don't have a cover so don't look as professional as Amazon purchased books.
> 
> So yeah, not even for my most favorite authors would I buy from someones website.


And it's not just Indies who are putting their work in the wrong categories for exposure. I like Arthurian myth, and the top options in the small Arthurian category now include many different versions of Harrry Potter and Harry Potter related books as well as Stephen King's Black Tower series. Which, as far as I remember didn't have an Arthurian connection.

Harry gets the girl at the end, right? So perhaps those should also be in the Romance category, too.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Atunah

Jill Nojack said:


> And it's not just Indies who are putting their work in the wrong categories for exposure. I like Arthurian myth, and the top options in the small Arthurian category now include many different versions of Harrry Potter and Harry Potter related books as well as Stephen King's Black Tower series. Which, as far as I remember didn't have an Arthurian connection.
> 
> Harry gets the girl at the end, right? So perhaps those should also be in the Romance category, too.


Its a big mess all around. 
Don't know about Harry and the ladies as I never read Harry Potter and have no interest in that stuff. 

But its interesting that you mention Arthurian stuff. I just finished a book in my favorite historical mystery series and it leaned on some of the myth in the plot. So I wanted to see if I can find some either historical romance, contempo romance in the suspense realm or some more historical mysteries strong with romantic elements with some sort of arthurian theme and the results in the Amazon store were laughable to say the least. I found nothing that matched what I wanted. Not sure what made me think that suddenly the search would be useful on Amazon. Wishful thinking?


----------



## Joshua Guess

Jill Nojack said:


> And it's not just Indies who are putting their work in the wrong categories for exposure. I like Arthurian myth, and the top options in the small Arthurian category now include many different versions of Harrry Potter and Harry Potter related books as well as Stephen King's Black Tower series. Which, as far as I remember didn't have an Arthurian connection.
> 
> Harry gets the girl at the end, right? So perhaps those should also be in the Romance category, too.


I just finished a reread of The Dark Tower, and while I agree with the point about HP and the category problems in general (Game of Thrones being in Science Fiction for years, for example), The Dark Tower is explicitly based on Arthurian legend. Roland is a descendant of Arthur Eld, his world's version of King Arthur. His guns are forged from that world's Excalibur, etc. Whether that qualifies it for the category or not is debatable and I lean toward not, but it has undeniable connective tissue.


----------



## RubyMadden

KelliWolfe said:


> Sela, lots of people *shop* elsewhere for their products and then go to Amazon to buy them. This isn't restricted to book purchases by any means, but we've had readers in WC tell us that they do not use Amazon to search for books. They rely on Goodreads and the book blogs and newsletters instead.
> 
> I have a theory that this is why we've been seeing a diminishing return on promotions, lately. We see a sharp spike as people who get the promotion go in and get the book, followed by an exponential decay to the same ranking as before. The simplest explanation for that type of behavior is that there just aren't as many readers using the genre top 100 lists to shop for books anymore. We get downloads from the readers who see the promotion and a trickle of organic downloads from the few people left using Amazon as their search tool, but not enough of them to make the books stick unless you can get into the store top 100 list or one of the really popular genre lists like the main romance category.


I agree with Kelli completely.

General Remarks: It's been deteriorating all year long. Whereas $100-500 in 3rd party ad promos would get a decent to good return once upon a time, now $1000 in ad promo *might* get a decent return. This is the first time I haven't seen an ROI. And this is despite my NL growing by thousands as well as follows & likes for all social media. As is, I have no plans to put any more $ into ad promos for 2017. And to be competitive on FACEBOOK ADS, you need literally $3-5K to make a dent to get into the upper Top 500 for the entire store. Only then, if you can sustain that type of ad budget, will you stay in the Top 1000.


----------



## 75845

Harry Potter does have a scene about a sword in a lake and a sword that can only be used by a true ... [I'll stop the spoilers there]. I think Arthurian legend also has room for the odd wizard and precocious boys. So Potty Mouth is not entirely devoid of arthurial intent.


----------



## sela

KelliWolfe said:


> Sela, lots of people *shop* elsewhere for their products and then go to Amazon to buy them. This isn't restricted to book purchases by any means, but we've had readers in WC tell us that they do not use Amazon to search for books. They rely on Goodreads and the book blogs and newsletters instead.
> 
> I have a theory that this is why we've been seeing a diminishing return on promotions, lately. We see a sharp spike as people who get the promotion go in and get the book, followed by an exponential decay to the same ranking as before. The simplest explanation for that type of behavior is that there just aren't as many readers using the genre top 100 lists to shop for books anymore. We get downloads from the readers who see the promotion and a trickle of organic downloads from the few people left using Amazon as their search tool, but not enough of them to make the books stick unless you can get into the store top 100 list or one of the really popular genre lists like the main romance category.


You're right, of course.

I'm one of them. I tend to browse my local big box bookstore and then go online to buy the eBook. I also get recommendations from friends and family. Most people find books through other means. But they know to go to Amazon to buy those books.

So, back to my argument about why a storefront on an author's website is only going to be minimally important for a career, those readers will still go to Amazon after hearing about a book from other sources. Amazon isn't showing signs of losing ground. Whatever way readers find their books, they go to Amazon to buy them. Finding your readers is so much easier on Amazon because it really is a big search engine with a store attached to it. Which is why Google could be a competitor to Amazon and Amazon knows it. Too bad Google doesn't know it. 

Or at least, too bad Google wasn't acting like they knew it.


----------



## Jill Nojack

Joshua Guess said:


> I just finished a reread of The Dark Tower, and while I agree with the point about HP and the category problems in general (Game of Thrones being in Science Fiction for years, for example), The Dark Tower is explicitly based on Arthurian legend. Roland is a descendant of Arthur Eld, his world's version of King Arthur. His guns are forged from that world's Excalibur, etc. Whether that qualifies it for the category or not is debatable and I lean toward not, but it has undeniable connective tissue.


I'll give you that one. But it certainly wouldn't be what I would be looking for in the category. Then again, while I have enjoyed many Steven King, I only liked the first one of the Dark Tower series and found the rest of them not up to snuff. But I have a preference for his early writing anyway. So it might just be me. Probably is.


----------



## sela

Jill Nojack said:


> And it's not just Indies who are putting their work in the wrong categories for exposure. I like Arthurian myth, and the top options in the small Arthurian category now include many different versions of Harrry Potter and Harry Potter related books as well as Stephen King's Black Tower series. Which, as far as I remember didn't have an Arthurian connection.
> 
> Harry gets the girl at the end, right? So perhaps those should also be in the Romance category, too.


It's true that there are books in the search lists that are there because of the way Amazon allots keywords. I've read HF readers complain about urban fantasy romance novels ending up in the high fantasy category because there is a mention of telepathy or magic or wizards, so it can be accidental. However , if you spend a few moments on Amazon's search lists, you can see how authors are deliberately using keywords in their titles etc. to hit the top of the lists. There are marketing gurus out there right now preaching this approach. Hence, you see titles as obvious as the two examples below

I searched for science fiction romance and this was book 3 on the list:

_*Scifi Romance: Bride for the Alien Warrior (BBW Paranormal Alien Alpha Male) (Fantasy Interracial Stranded Short Stories) *_

This one by the same author even gets in Billionaire.

_*Romance: Scifi Romance: Gravity (Paranormal Alien Billionaire Romance) (Fantasy Space Opera New Adult Romance)
*_

The thing is, while the stuffed titles and keywords may get these two books at the top of the search list, you can tell from the book ranks that they are not selling a lot despite appearing high on the search list. Luckily for this author, Amazon's bots have not detected that these books include repeat copies of various stories. It's a clear example of breaking TOS, trying to get maximum exposure and maximum eyes on stories.

If you write a book people want to read, those books sell with little or no promotion and no stuffed titles. I understand that authors feel they have to do everything they can to get visibility, and it's hard to get noticed if you are a new author because of the massive competition, but these are gimmicks that might or might not work, but might also get you slapped down by Amazon.

Here's an example that seems to work:



It currently ranks 359 in the Kindle store, was released November 12th and has 140+ reviews. So, keyword stuffed titles may work, although I suspect there is more involved than just keyword stuffed titles.

So, while I agree that the search function is not optimal, because some authors are manipulating keywords and titles, etc. to hit the top of certain categories, and that Amazon's own system puts books where they apparently don't really belong based on some keywords, for the most part, Amazon is the go-to place to find and buy books. Anecdotal evidence about using other sources to find books, while telling, doesn't really prove that Amazon's search function is broken.

Authors still face the basic problem of visibility if they start their own bookstore on their website in the hopes of not relying on Amazon. While your most rabid fans might buy books off your website, the problem remains how _new_ readers will find you. Amazon works so well because it really is a clearinghouse for every book there is with a super easy ecommerce function. It's hard to beat.


----------



## Jericho

Going back to the page reads issue for a second. I had an interesting four-hour conversation (That's right, folks, four-hours! Talk about taking one for the team.) with six different people at KDP and ECR today, three of which either intentionally or unintentionally hung up on me at various times in our conversation (and no, before you ask, I was never rude, or belligerent, or hostile. What I was, was persistent and insistent.) And guess what folks... "We've looked at the data and can't find a systematic issue affecting your results. We apologize, but we just don't have any more information to offer."


----------



## H.C.

We were discussing this on reddit and a medium size author there said one of the phone assistants at Amazon said they've been bombarded by e-mails and calls from authors showing discrepancies and the author got the impression this comment "slipped out" as she changed the subject when asked for detail.


----------



## Jericho

Herefortheride said:


> We were discussing this on reddit and a medium size author there said one of the phone assistants at Amazon said they've been bombarded by e-mails and calls from authors showing discrepancies and the author got the impression this comment "slipped out" as she changed the subject when asked for detail.


One of the women I spoke with today told me they hadn't heard of, or had no memory of this issue from other authors except for my particular case.

When I asked them for the contact information of the person responsible for looking into my case, I got disconnected. That was the second time today, for the exact same question. I was then hung up on by a ECR...literally hung up on, after she said gave me the canned response that they couldn't find an issue with my account. (I told her the phone call was being recorded, click)

They've never acknowledged the videos I sent them multiple times demonstrating how easy it was to manipulate the page reads with a negative impact to the author. Even though I've sent in video proof reading a book all the way through and then going back to the beginning and that was the page reads results, after the "sync last page read" was activated on the device.

The two videos I posted with testing and results still have exactly the same results today as they did on Oct. 31, and Nov. 1. 
150 Extremely Power Affirmations for Success	$0.06	12	0	0
250 Extremely Powerful Affirmations for Leadership	$0.01	1	0	0

(for those who may have missed it)

Test 2:
http://bit.ly/2fWxKP4

Test 1:
http://bit.ly/2f0T8la

I have other videos, with more tests variations proving that KENPC is easily manipulatable with a negative impact to only the author.

Three hang ups in one day. Then a few hours of them dodging the issue. They don't care. They never watched the videos, but told me there was no problem with my account, they never looked at the PDF documentation I sent, and they refused to offer me a proof they did an audit, or a copy of the audit for my records for accuracy. They just don't care that it's harming authors. They don't care about us.

(I was never rude, or impolite, or demanding, just insistent that they specify when the person handling my case would contact me.)

I've since removed all my books for all my pens out of KU. That was the last straw. I'm tired of trying to work with them and they're not acknowledging a problem and my page reads are still getting "1 page read" every couple of days for months on end.

Four hours on the phone today, talking with multiple reps who pretend to be my friend, or hang up on me, emails with over 50 incidents of "1 page reads" on my account over 2 1/2 months for them to tell me the exact same wordage they told me in email three on Oct. 24th. They don't care about us. They aren't trying to fix it. And they gave me an attitude for looking into the issue.

So, I'm out. 2014-2016 RIP KENPC KU...

Happy Thanksgiving to all and to all a good night!


----------



## Gissel Escudero

sela said:


> While I really love the idea of direct sales, it means that your readers have to be so loyal that they are willing to jump through yet another hoop to buy your books.
> 
> They have to go to your website and use whatever purchasing system you have put in place to buy your books. Then, they will have to receive the digital book in the right format for their reading preferences -- ePub, Mobi, PDF, etc. Plus, how do they find your book in the first place? You can use advertising of course, but you lose out on the organic sales via Amazon's amazing algorithms.
> 
> Amazon is so successful because it makes it so easy to find and buy books. Plain and simple.
> 
> Your existing readers, many of whom find you via Amazon's search engine, buy your books using Amazon's very easy retail interface. They can search for books and buy all on the same platform. Their books magically appear in their Kindle App or device and they can read immediately.
> 
> Until you can provide the same value to your readers, or some competitive advantage, you will only have a few really hardcore readers willing to buy from your website.
> 
> Think of it -- they will have to enter information on your website in order to pay, they will have to download your digital book and then they will have to load it onto their device or into their reading app / machine. That's a lot of extra work for each reader/customer considering they have already done so for Amazon.
> 
> The only way I could see this working well would be if you have a LOT of existing hardcore readers, have a great mailing list, have a great store interface, and can charge much less than Amazon does. For example, if your book is currently $4.99 on Amazon, you could charge $3.49 on your site. You would have to add in the cost of the transaction, which varies, depending on the merchant software you use. Then, you would have to have some kind of system set up that sends them the eBook in the proper format for their particular reading device / preferences. Will you accept returns? What about the effect on sales visibility on Amazon if you funnel off a lot of readers from their platform? Sure, a launch may result in a number of direct sales, but those will not be recorded by Amazon and so won't affect your visibility on that platform.
> 
> These are all things to keep in mind when moving forward with a store on your website.
> 
> I think Amazon has the market cornered for a reason -- they offer fantastic service and selection. Until we can beat that, or offer some really significant incentive to make our own website stores more attractive, Amazon will be an essential tool in the indie author's business. The key is to figure out how to perform really well on Amazon. It sucks that they hold all the cards, and control the table, but that's the way it is. We have to work around and with them to be successful.


First, nobody has to stop selling through Amazon and other retailers. We're talking if it's worth staying in KU.
Second, the only "hoop" with direct sales through a website would be to click a button, but the item (via credit card or PayPal) and download it. Without registering anywhere.
Third, readers wouldn't "have to go to the website." They would be there already. The thing they wouldn't have to do is go to Amazon (or other retailers). If they find you right on Amazon, they can still buy your books there, no problem. I'm even going to let them have the premium editions for free if they buy any of my books through other retailers and write a review on them. (Sites like Sellfy provide you discount codes and all that stuff.)
Four, with digital commerce platforms you can zip all kinds of files in a single package: EPUB, MOBI, and PDF (plus free wallpapers, in my case). And yes, it's possible to return a book. And they charge you a much lower percentage of your royalties.
Fifth, I no longer care about losing visibility on Amazon, BECAUSE THEY'RE GIVING ME NONE, APPARENTLY :-D I'M driving my readers to their site. I'd rather have it the other way around.
It's not a good thing that "Amazon is holding all the cards," so I'm willing to do the experiment and see what comes out of it. KU has been a huge disappointment.


----------



## Philip Gibson

I keep checking this thread, hoping to see that:

1.  Amazon has fixed the page reads problem

or

2.  Amazon is working on the page reads problem

or

3.  Amazon has acknowledged there is a widespread page reads problem.


Has there been any such progress?  I can't tell.

Philip


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Philip Gibson said:


> I keep checking this thread, hoping to see that:
> 
> 1. Amazon has fixed the page reads problem
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Amazon is working on the page reads problem
> 
> or
> 
> 3. Amazon has acknowledged there is a widespread page reads problem.
> 
> Has there been any such progress? I can't tell.
> 
> Philip


Nope. Nope. And nope.


----------



## TheLass

Gissel Escudero said:


> First, nobody has to stop selling through Amazon and other retailers. We're talking if it's worth staying in KU.
> Second, the only "hoop" with direct sales through a website would be to click a button, but the item (via credit card or PayPal) and download it. Without registering anywhere.
> Third, readers wouldn't "have to go to the website." They would be there already. The thing they wouldn't have to do is go to Amazon (or other retailers). If they find you right on Amazon, they can still buy your books there, no problem. I'm even going to let them have the premium editions for free if they buy any of my books through other retailers and write a review on them. (Sites like Sellfy provide you discount codes and all that stuff.)
> Four, with digital commerce platforms you can zip all kinds of files in a single package: EPUB, MOBI, and PDF (plus free wallpapers, in my case). And yes, it's possible to return a book. And they charge you a much lower percentage of your royalties.
> Fifth, I no longer care about losing visibility on Amazon, BECAUSE THEY'RE GIVING ME NONE, APPARENTLY :-D I'M driving my readers to their site. I'd rather have it the other way around.
> It's not a good thing that "Amazon is holding all the cards," so I'm willing to do the experiment and see what comes out of it. KU has been a huge disappointment.


Yes, I thought the post you responded to was rather defeatist.

The real problem with selling ebooks on a website is the need for customers to sideload (correct term?) the files. Gumroad have a 'send to kindle email' function, I don't know what's involved in setting that up. I assume the same issue exists with Apple and co.


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## sela

Gissel Escudero said:


> First, nobody has to stop selling through Amazon and other retailers. We're talking if it's worth staying in KU.
> Second, the only "hoop" with direct sales through a website would be to click a button, but the item (via credit card or PayPal) and download it. Without registering anywhere.
> Third, readers wouldn't "have to go to the website." They would be there already. The thing they wouldn't have to do is go to Amazon (or other retailers). If they find you right on Amazon, they can still buy your books there, no problem. I'm even going to let them have the premium editions for free if they buy any of my books through other retailers and write a review on them. (Sites like Sellfy provide you discount codes and all that stuff.)
> Four, with digital commerce platforms you can zip all kinds of files in a single package: EPUB, MOBI, and PDF (plus free wallpapers, in my case). And yes, it's possible to return a book. And they charge you a much lower percentage of your royalties.
> Fifth, I no longer care about losing visibility on Amazon, BECAUSE THEY'RE GIVING ME NONE, APPARENTLY :-D I'M driving my readers to their site. I'd rather have it the other way around.
> It's not a good thing that "Amazon is holding all the cards," so I'm willing to do the experiment and see what comes out of it. KU has been a huge disappointment.


Of course, no one has to stop selling via Amazon. I didn't say that. Nor did I say whether it was worth staying in KU. Each author has to decide that based on results, not bromides. What I did try to suggest was that opening a storefront on an author website is not going to solve the problem because you are then competing with Amazon and if Apple and Barnes & Noble and Kobo can't effectively compete with Amazon, how can any given indie author?

The problem I see is that when an author pulls out of KU, the visibility of their books will fall even farther so it's important to promote them. To have a successful author storefront means attracting customers who are willing to buy through the author's website instead of Amazon. A lot won't be because they already have Amazon. You, author (and I mean generic author) have to provide some kind of incentive or value for them to take the time to visit your website and use your storefront to buy books instead of what they already use -- Amazon for the largest majority of eBook sales. If your books are available on Amazon, what are you offering your customer to entice them to your storefront? I would think price would be the only way to tempt them. If you make it too many hoops to jump through, they will simply go to Amazon instead.

The biggest issue indie authors face is visibility. You can have the greatest work of literature ever but if no one knows about your book, no one can buy it. Amazon -- so far -- has been the king of providing indie authors with visibility via its algorithms and KU and other programs. Competing with Amazon is a difficult task.

All I can say is good luck with that!

Finally, I am going to start a storefront on my website and try to make it as customer-friendly as possible. Why? Not because i think I can circumvent Amazon, or beat them at their game, but in case something bad happens and I lose my Amazon account for whoever knows what infraction I might make against their convoluted TOS. It's like a backup backup plan that I just don't see going anywhere, but is like insurance against the worst case scenario.

But do I think my storefront is going to give me a big return on investment? Nope. For me, Amazon is 60% of my revenues, with Apple at about 25% and B&N about 10%. Kobo and GP make up the paltry rest.

YMMV


----------



## Lady Vine

Gissel Escudero said:


> First, nobody has to stop selling through Amazon and other retailers. We're talking if it's worth staying in KU.
> Second, the only "hoop" with direct sales through a website would be to click a button, but the item (via credit card or PayPal) and download it. Without registering anywhere.
> Third, readers wouldn't "have to go to the website." They would be there already. The thing they wouldn't have to do is go to Amazon (or other retailers). If they find you right on Amazon, they can still buy your books there, no problem. I'm even going to let them have the premium editions for free if they buy any of my books through other retailers and write a review on them. (Sites like Sellfy provide you discount codes and all that stuff.)
> Four, with digital commerce platforms you can zip all kinds of files in a single package: EPUB, MOBI, and PDF (plus free wallpapers, in my case). And yes, it's possible to return a book. And they charge you a much lower percentage of your royalties.
> Fifth, I no longer care about losing visibility on Amazon, BECAUSE THEY'RE GIVING ME NONE, APPARENTLY :-D I'M driving my readers to their site. I'd rather have it the other way around.
> It's not a good thing that "Amazon is holding all the cards," so I'm willing to do the experiment and see what comes out of it. KU has been a huge disappointment.


Yes to all of this! If you're no longer getting visibility on Amazon, and your readers are visiting your site already, you're really not losing out by getting them to buy direct. This has always been my goal, and I'm more determined than ever now to get that set up. You can offer deep discounts and still make what you would selling through the retailers. I don't know about anyone else, but if I could save a couple of bucks simply by taking an extra couple of minutes to load the books myself, I'd gladly do that.

The great thing is, you're not forcing anyone to buy from you. Provide the links to all stores, and let the reader decide if they want to shop direct (and save money) or shop with Amazon.


----------



## Gone To Croatan

KelliWolfe said:


> The simplest explanation for that type of behavior is that there just aren't as many readers using the genre top 100 lists to shop for books anymore.


Yes. I don't remember the last time I looked at a top 100 list on Amazon, because they' were stuffed so full of books I don't want to read that it became pointless.

I do still use the 'also boughts', but I mostly buy books I've heard of elsewhere. Amazon have really screwed up their ebook store over the last couple of years, and don't even seem to care. I think I've actually spent more money through iBooks than I have on Amazon ebooks in the last year.


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## KelliWolfe

It's against almost EVERY retailer's TOS to have your books available at a lower price somewhere else. You can get away with it on your author/publisher site for a while, but for how long? And are you willing to put your accounts at risk to do it?

And that 'send to Kindle' email function? Not a good bet. Baen Books Reveals Amazon's Byzantine Policies on Kindle Email Delivery. Yeah, you might get away with it for a while, but for how long? And once Amazon shuts off the spigot because you're a competitor, then what? Think they just might take a long, hard look at your publisher account for TOS violations while they're at it?


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## KelliWolfe

Edward M. Grant said:


> So charge the same price, but give them 'points' for each purchase that they can use to buy books for free once they've collected enough.


Unless you're Amanda very few of us have the kind of catalog to make that any real incentive to a reader, who for the same price would rather just go to Amazon, do the one-click thing, and have the book magically show up on her Kindle.

And what happens when your poor customer drops her Kindle in the bathtub? How do you make sure that she gets a copy of your book on her new Kindle? A lot of the 3rd party digital sales platforms basically say, "Once you've downloaded it, it's all on you" so that if your device/computer dies and you don't have backups, you're just SOL. After the first lost book, they're going right back to Amazon or Google or one of the services that keeps track of all of those things for them.


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## Gissel Escudero

Same or lower price is a problem if you're selling through several retailers, that's why I thought of premium editions. Same price, more content. If somebody loses the files they've downloaded, I wouldn't mind they'd ask for a copy. (I've given free copies of other books to those readers who have helped me catch those pesky typos, and they liked that a lot.) I'm basically going to try to drive Amazon customers to MY place, not the other way around. Amazon will rule if we do nothing. And I've lost most of my visibility there, anyway.


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## sela

Gissel Escudero said:


> Same or lower price is a problem if you're selling through several retailers, that's why I thought of premium editions. Same price, more content. If somebody loses the files they've downloaded, I wouldn't mind they'd ask for a copy. (I've given free copies of other books to those readers who have helped me catch those pesky typos, and they liked that a lot.) I'm basically going to try to drive Amazon customers to MY place, not the other way around. Amazon will rule if we do nothing. And I've lost most of my visibility there, anyway.


Again I say to you -- good luck! I would love it if we indies weren't as dependent on Amazon for our livelihoods. If you think you can compete with Amazon's visibility, customer service and programs, go for it. Apple can't or doesn't want to. Neither can Barnes & Noble or Kobo.

Seriously, your best bet is to go with one of the distributors like Draft 2 Digital or Smashwords, or direct to if you don't mind the extra work involved. Your best bet is to do a lot of advertising, to get your books in front of new readers. That is a skill set in and of itself and most of the readers go to Amazon to buy books anyway.

The website storefront? It's a novelty item. You might catch a few readers who come to your website and if it's really streamlined, you can probably get a few sales, but I would view it like I view print sales. No more than a few percentage points of revenue.

I mean, if you're as big as Konrath or Bella, then maybe... But otherwise? If you lack visibility on Amazon -- despite its algorithms and desire to actually sell books -- I suspect you will have a hard time getting visibility for your website storefront.

Go for it! I just don't have much hope for that approach or it would already be a thing because successful indies or indies frustrated with Amazon would already have done this and posted about their success.

Maybe to some I sound defeatist. To me, I'm being realistic. Compete with Amazon? Drive traffic to your website and away from Amazon? I don't see it happening in any meaningful way.


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## KelliWolfe

Gissel Escudero said:


> If somebody loses the files they've downloaded, I wouldn't mind they'd ask for a copy. (I've given free copies of other books to those readers who have helped me catch those pesky typos, and they liked that a lot.)


That works fine for a reader here and there. How is it going to scale when you've got hundreds or thousands of readers using your site to get their books?

People here already complain about the time wearing their publisher hat takes away from their writing. How much more time are you willing to give up to be a retailer/distributor?

It isn't that all of these problems can't be solved. They can, with the application of enough time and money. It's just not going to be cost-effective. There's a reason that sites like Amazon, eBay, Etsy, Cafe Press, etc. exist. It's because trying to do all of this on your own is really freakin' hard, and customers don't really want to have to go visit a million different websites to get the things that they want (and enter all their personal information, including credit card/payment info at all of them). They want to go to Amazon where they can one-click their way through their shopping list and be done with it. Or Google Play or iTunes where they can do all of their book/music/app shopping using the same interface and all of their information is already stored there - and the companies are big enough to be considered "safe" by consumers.

We did the _everyone sells from their own website_ thing. It was called the 1990s. Amazon ate those people alive because they understood consumers. I'm sorry, but you're not going to turn back the clock on that one.


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## sela

KelliWolfe said:


> It's against almost EVERY retailer's TOS to have your books available at a lower price somewhere else. You can get away with it on your author/publisher site for a while, but for how long? And are you willing to put your accounts at risk to do it?
> 
> And that 'send to Kindle' email function? Not a good bet. Baen Books Reveals Amazon's Byzantine Policies on Kindle Email Delivery. Yeah, you might get away with it for a while, but for how long? And once Amazon shuts off the spigot because you're a competitor, then what? Think they just might take a long, hard look at your publisher account for TOS violations while they're at it?


Yeah, totally agree and thanks for pointing that out.

An author can charge less, but if Amazon finds out, it will price-match you! Then, you'll lose money on Amazon...

So there really is very little incentive for readers to buy from an author's storefront.

Look at the big publishers -- they have a hate on for Amazon and in response, are trying to sell books through their websites, but the vast vast majority of their sales are from Amazon and other retailers. For a reason -- readers just don't go to publisher websites to buy books, or even to visit.

Traffic to my website is likely a FRACTION of what it is to Amazon or other retailers. Most of my visitors find my website after reading my books they bought from -- AMAZON!

I might be able to sell to Facebook followers, but even so, most of them will just click to Amazon to pick up my books, because that's where 60 - 70% of my readers shop. Everything is set up nicely for them to one-click and voila -- the book is on their Kindle. I just can't compete.

In fact, truth be told, I should drive traffic TO Amazon. That has worked the best for me. My advertising on Facebook drove readers to Amazon to buy my books and I had a really great year because of it.

*shrug*

If an author's books aren't selling well on Amazon? My advice to them would be to write new books. If they have done everything possible to present their books in the best light, and still no luck with sales? Study books that sell well on Amazon. Write books like those. Do it the best they can. Get great genre appropriate covers, present the book well by having it edited and writing a great killer blurb. Use the right keywords to get the book in front of the right readers. Tweak until they find success.


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## Jericho

sela said:


> If an author's books aren't selling well on Amazon? My advice to them would be to write new books. If they have done everything possible to present their books in the best light, and still no luck with sales? Study books that sell well on Amazon. Write books like those. Do it the best they can. Get great genre appropriate covers, present the book well by having it edited and writing a great killer blurb. Use the right keywords to get the book in front of the right readers. Tweak until they find success.


What if an author has done all of the above, knows that their book(s) sell and get reads, only that those reads, and potentially sales, are not being be accounted for accurately by the KU program, and their queries to fix the issue are not being answered or are being totally dismissed, so all that effort described above amounts to a hill of beans when it comes to author compensations. Should they continue to go through those steps and still publish on Amazon and in the KU program as Amazon would prefer?

Amazon is unharmed in this scenario... so all is as it should be?


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## sela

Jericho said:


> What if an author has done all of the above, knows that their book(s) sell and get reads, only that those reads, and potentially sales, are not being be accounted for accurately by the KU program, and their queries to fix the issue are not being answered or are being totally dismissed, so all that effort described above amounts to a hill of beans when it comes to author compensations. Should they continue to go through those steps and still publish on Amazon and in the KU program as Amazon would prefer?
> 
> Amazon is unharmed in this scenario... so all is as it should be?


Setting up an author website to try to sell books is not going to address the issue with page reads. At best, you might capture a few sales that might otherwise have gone to Amazon but would it be enough to make up for the loss in KU page reads? Only you can tell. At worst, you will lost even more visibility on Amazon and then lose even more money and the storefront will not make up the difference.

I have no doubt that there are issues with page reads on Amazon in KU. The page flip issue is one. The flip back to the front of the book issue is another. The dampening down of visibility after a free promo via an external promotion is another. They seem to be affecting different authors in different ways and to different degrees. None of us have any leverage as individuals to do much of anything about it. The only real option is to leave Amazon, but that's like biting off your nose to spite your face unless it was en mass and that is just not going to happen because there is nothing that can compete. The second option is to remove your books from KU, but by removing your books from KU, your books will lose even more visibility and so you need a strategy and tactics to get visibility back or visibility on the other retailers to make up for it.

Best advice -- write more books that have a market.


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## Jericho

sela said:


> Setting up an author website to try to sell books is not going to address the issue with page reads. At best, you might capture a few sales that might otherwise have gone to Amazon but would it be enough to make up for the loss in KU page reads? Only you can tell. At worst, you will lost even more visibility on Amazon and then lose even more money and the storefront will not make up the difference.
> 
> I have no doubt that there are issues with page reads on Amazon in KU. The page flip issue is one. The flip back to the front of the book issue is another. The dampening down of visibility after a free promo via an external promotion is another. They seem to be affecting different authors in different ways and to different degrees. None of us have any leverage as individuals to do much of anything about it. The only real option is to leave Amazon, but that's like biting off your nose to spite your face unless it was en mass and that is just not going to happen because there is nothing that can compete. The second option is to remove your books from KU, but by removing your books from KU, your books will lose even more visibility and so you need a strategy and tactics to get visibility back or visibility on the other retailers to make up for it.
> 
> Best advice -- write more books that have a market.


So basically, they've got everyone by the short and curlies... and they know it, and so therefore don't care, and won't be held accountable for defrauding authors out of compensation for their fraudulent penny skimming activities.

So basically, it's on purpose and they're fine with it because so many know about it, they know about it, and yet, nothing gets done to fix the issue. How long will they continue to be the biggest if this behavior continues? The En Masse is happening. Authors are leaving every day. Every day. Someone packs up their books and heads out in search of greener pastures. Meanwhile, Amazon keeps their unaccounted for funds, their visibility, and then picks and chooses from those that are left which authors they can scam from next. Brilliant!


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## KelliWolfe

Sometimes reality isn't pretty. It's just what we're stuck with, and we have to do the best we can with what we've got. I am not a big Amazon fan, and I have a major dislike for KU.

Right now I'm considering going all-in to KU with my Olivia Blake catalog, because after over a year of being wide more than 80% of the income on it is still from Amazon. And the income on the other sites is *falling*, not growing. New releases? Promotions? Make no difference at all. They sit. They do nothing.

But on Amazon? I did one minimal round of promotions back in April for less than $100 that blasted me way past anything I'd seen in the previous four years on my main pen name. My latest, a contemporary Gothic, has climbed the freebie ranks all on it's own and hit #7 in the Gothic category earlier this week. All three of my permafrees on that pen name are sticking in the Top 100 lists. How much better would I be doing if I had KU downloads to go with my sales?


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## Lady Vine

Discount codes are what Smashwords and ARe use to avoid Amazon's price-matching. That's what I'll use.

Running a store is not for everyone, clearly. If you honestly can't see any way of making money from it, it's probably best you continue to focus your efforts on catering to Amazon's market. Most of you tend to write books specifically for that market. Some of us don't. There are many niche genres whose readers shop from author sites. One of the genres I'll be moving into, for example, is very specific to a certain type of reader (no, not erotica, lol), and I won't be selling these books anywhere _but_ on my website. What's more, I know where my audience is, and that they're used to buying from individual stores.

I don't consider myself stuck at all. Amazon is often less than 50% of my sales, and, if I'm being honest, I'd like it to stay that way. But I appreciate that this isn't the case for most.


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## tommy gun

Umm.  So KU is not working the way it is supposed to.  

I think the answer would be pull out of KU and go wide.  Create your own storefront and use discount codes to your readers for a cheaper price in exchange for their email added to your mailing list.

But KU is the problem.  So if Amazon is still selling 70% of your books?  Stay on Amazon.

Sorry but it seems a lot of people want all the way out.  Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.  
I am entering the KU land for the first time with my new series.  If I get a tiny number of page reads and some boost in ratings then I will evaluate based on what I think is happening.  If the KU thing does not work and I think I am losing money every day then guess what?  I'll be wide again at the end of the 90 days.
Oh and since there are 4 books in the series, while book 2 may end up in KU for a run the other 2 would not.
Amazon will still sell my books.

Just my 2 cents


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## sela

Jericho said:


> So basically, they've got everyone by the short and curlies... and they know it, and so therefore don't care, and won't be held accountable for defrauding authors out of compensation for their fraudulent penny skimming activities.
> 
> So basically, it's on purpose and they're fine with it because so many know about it, they know about it, and yet, nothing gets done to fix the issue. How long will they continue to be the biggest if this behavior continues? The En Masse is happening. Authors are leaving every day. Every day. Someone packs up their books and heads out in search of greener pastures. Meanwhile, Amazon keeps their unaccounted for funds, their visibility, and then picks and chooses from those that are left which authors they can scam from next. Brilliant!


There are 1,442,038 books in KU. There are 1,703 books released in KU every day. Every single day. Visibility is an issue even if you are exclusive to Amazon. Competition for eyeballs on pages, sales and borrows is incredibly tough. You don't have to allege scams and fraud to explain why some books are not getting reads. Plain fact is that it is darn hard to get people to look at let alone borrow and read your books.

I don't know why anyone's books in particular are not getting read. We know that there are glitches in the system and have proof that there are problems. However, there is that pesky TOS thing that clearly gives Amazon the right to determine how to determine how pages are counted. When you sign on to KU, you have to accept that they can count them any way they want. They have very good lawyers who can wordsmith the hell out of things.

We can complain, and then we have to decide what is next -- suffer in silence and accept whatever comes with the territory, making the best of it or leave. Fighting Amazon is like me fighting my big sister when I was six and she was fifty pounds heavier than me with a much longer reach. All it did was make her laugh and me feel angry and foolish.


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## Jericho

tomgermann said:


> Umm. So KU is not working the way it is supposed to.
> 
> I think the answer would be pull out of KU and go wide. Create your own storefront and use discount codes to your readers for a cheaper price in exchange for their email added to your mailing list.
> 
> But KU is the problem.
> 
> Just my 2 cents


Just 2 cents is exactly what you'll get too... And in that 90 day span, readers will read your work and part of that audience will move on until you upload something new, which is your labor, but you'll be left without getting proper pay... and the reader will be fine, Amazon will be fine, but you'll be the only one who loses.

Don't mind me, I'm just furious that I've supported this problem by investing more titles in the system only to get hosed as one poster put it. It also infuriates me that so many people are saying (not you specifically but others on here), 'it's a terrible broken system, that will literally take your work and pay you one freaking penny for it, but it could be worse, you could go wide, and try and see what life is like out there in the cold...' It's not much worse than one freaking penny. One freaking penny! One penny doesn't keep half a light on. Hell, they charge at least six cents to transfer the products to readers, and that price is going up. Just another way to take money away from the content producers pocket.


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## Jericho

sela said:


> You don't have to allege scams and fraud to explain why some books are not getting reads.
> 
> However, there is that pesky TOS thing that clearly gives Amazon the right to determine how to determine how pages are counted. When you sign on to KU, you have to accept that they can count them any way they want. They have very good lawyers who can wordsmith the hell out of things.


A system that defrauds people by telling them there's nothing wrong when it's easy to prove that there is, is a scam. Plain and simple. That's it. Nothing complicated about it.

If people want to be an apologist for that system that's on them.

Why are those "very good lawyers" employed? To make it easier for them to get away with doing what they're doing.

Are they employed for the authors' benefit? I think we all know the answer to that.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## KelliWolfe

Jericho, no one is being an apologist for Amazon. Yes, it's broken. Yes, they're screwing people over. Yes, visibility sucks because of all the crap going on.

But the facts are that Amazon is by far the largest ebookstore in the world right now. Kindle Unlimited is number two. KU by itself pays out more to indies every month than B&N's income for it's _entire electronic division_ - devices, indie ebooks, tradpub ebooks, apps, etc. Visibility on the other platforms is worse, and unlikely to get any better because they don't seem to be making any changes to fix the problem - despite people like me begging their tech support team for years to fix their problems and make things better for the readers and the publishers by adding things like more categories and keywords.

I don't like it, but that's reality. And reality dictated that I go through all of my distributors today and yank every single one of my Olivia Blake titles so I can enroll them in Select. Frankly it makes me throw up in my mouth a little to do it, but when I'm looking at my spreadsheets for the year and I look at the numbers, the other distributors really aren't leaving me any choice if I want to keep doing this as my day job. It's not worth sacrificing the additional income, rank boosts, and visibility on Amazon for the pittance that all of them together make up every month. So I held my nose and delisted everything.


----------



## Jericho

sela said:


> There are 1,442,038 books in KU. There are 1,703 books released in KU every day. Every single day. Visibility is an issue even if you are exclusive to Amazon. Competition for eyeballs on pages, sales and borrows is incredibly tough. Plain fact is that it is darn hard to get people to look at let alone borrow and read your books.


The point isn't how many books are on amazon and are getting sold for every other author. The point is, if you sell you should be compensated fairly. End of story. If you've sold anything, one, two, hundreds of copies, those pages and sales should be accounted for accurately and paid for accurately. Not doing that is criminal.



sela said:


> I don't know why anyone's books in particular are not getting read.


Again, it doesn't matter... if those books _are read_ they should be paid accordingly. If the system is broken no amount of apologizing for it will take away from that simple fact.



sela said:


> We know that there are glitches in the system and have proof that there are problems.


Yes we do.



sela said:


> However, there is that pesky TOS thing that clearly gives Amazon the right to determine how to determine how pages are counted.


This does not grant carte blanche to ignore obvious problems in the system and defraud people, otherwise the lawyers would've figured out a way to stipulate in the contract that we can defraud you and you can't do anything about it.

Besides they may be actively changing the wording each time someone points out there is an issue to their advantage.



sela said:


> When you sign on to KU, you have to accept that they can count them any way they want. They have very good lawyers who can wordsmith the hell out of things.


This is within reason. And they say how they count them,



sela said:


> We can complain, and then we have to decide what is next -- suffer in silence and accept whatever comes with the territory, making the best of it or leave. Fighting Amazon is like me fighting my big sister when I was six and she was fifty pounds heavier than me with a much longer reach. All it did was make her laugh and me feel angry and foolish.


United we stand. Divided we fall. ~ Benjamin Franklin.

Figuring out ways to quiet the righteous tone of frustration directed at a broken system, by those who apologize for this system, and make excuses, or flat out lie and state there is no problem, or those who try to redirect with unrelated information, or blanket facts with erroneous numbers, or whatever... is a way of trying to keep authors who are impacted separated to they have the illusion that they are powerless against a behemoth that only remains as such because dissenters are ignored, redirected, and diminished.

Authors are missing money for their efforts and products. That's all there is to it. Amazon is refusing to address the issue. That's all there is to it. If the system worked as they said it did, there wouldn't be so many people on here, and multiple other venues voicing their concerns about it.


----------



## Jericho

KelliWolfe said:


> Jericho, no one is being an apologist for Amazon.


Yes, there are. There are people on here decidedly trying to redirect the frustration in an attempt to quiet that frustration by making excuses and talking about unrelated issues.



KelliWolfe said:


> But the facts are that Amazon is by far the largest ebookstore in the world right now.


On the backs of whom?



KelliWolfe said:


> Kindle Unlimited is number two. KU by itself pays out more to indies every month than B&N's income for it's _entire electronic division_ - devices, indie ebooks, tradpub ebooks, apps, etc. Visibility on the other platforms is worse, and unlikely to get any better because they don't seem to be making any changes to fix the problem - despite people like me begging their tech support team for years to fix their problems and make things better for the readers and the publishers by adding things like more categories and keywords.
> 
> I don't like it, but that's reality. And reality dictated that I go through all of my distributors today and yank every single one of my Olivia Blake titles so I can enroll them in Select.


By placing them into a flawed system only exacerbates the issue. It's literally sending the wrong message that it's okay to exploit this work and pay pennies for it. IMPO.



 KelliWolfe said:


> Frankly it makes me throw up in my mouth a little to do it, but when I'm looking at my spreadsheets for the year and I look at the numbers, the other distributors really aren't leaving me any choice if I want to keep doing this as my day job. It's not worth sacrificing the additional income, rank boosts, and visibility on Amazon for the pittance that all of them together make up every month. So I held my nose and delisted everything.


So getting paid pennies is not sacrificing the work?

PENNIES! "1 page reads" pay pennies. That is pittance. How can a person knowingly invest in a system and support a system that they know will actively pay them pennies for their work and claim that that is a better alternative?

To me, this is baffling.

P.S. I really like your Oliva Blake branding.

_Use [nobbc][/quote][/nobbc] at the end when you are inserting a response in the midst of a quote or responding to a partial quote. Or use the "insert quote" found in each post behind yours if you scroll down below the edit box. Edited to make it easier for members to read. --Betsy_


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## Jericho

KelliWolfe said:


> Jericho, no one is being an apologist for Amazon. Yes, it's broken. Yes, they're screwing people over. Yes, visibility sucks because of all the crap going on.
> 
> But the facts are that Amazon is by far the largest ebookstore in the world right now. Kindle Unlimited is number two.


And for the record, I never said Amazon wasn't the largest platform, or that they _can_ create a platform for unsurpassed visibility. We all know that. That's why we're here. But if they're not paying the author correctly for that advantage? What's the point? They're still ripping people off. If they spread an author's name far and wide, but don't pay them for correctly for their sales... it's still harming the author financially. Can't pay rent on reputations and visibility. Gotta have that green stuff.

And if they can provide visibility... don't you think they can take it away just as easily?


----------



## PearlEarringLady

sela said:


> You don't have to allege scams and fraud to explain why some books are not getting reads. Plain fact is that it is darn hard to get people to look at let alone borrow and read your books.


This thread is not about books not being read. It's about books that ARE being read, but authors are not getting paid for that.



> We know that there are glitches in the system


I don't think they're glitches any more. I think it's deliberate changes in the algorithms, and we still don't know what they are. The issues with pageflip and the skip-back-to-the-start issue are sidetracks, I think, because they've almost certainly been going on for months if not longer. But something big changed in September, so that a small number of authors saw a catastrophic drop in pages read overnight, and that hasn't been explained satisfactorily. There were other issues, too, like the free rankings, that seem to have stabilised, but the major pages read issue hasn't been resolved for most people affected (as far as I know).



> We can complain, and then we have to decide what is next -- suffer in silence and accept whatever comes with the territory, making the best of it or leave.


Here I totally agree with you.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks,

Just got back from Thanksgiving dinner with my sister-in-law and some friends. It was lovely. Peaceful. Full of good humor and thankfulness.

Locking this thread while I read through what's been happening.

Peace.

EDITED TO ADD: *I'm going to go ahead an reopen the thread with a warning. Let's make points about the errors in the payment system and whether or not the Amazon system is broken without calling fellow members apologists or secret agents or whatever. Name calling and unproven accusations are not allowed here and will get a member placed on post moderation quicker than you can say cranberry sauce.

You (generic you) have been warned.

Keep it civil. Be kind to each other. It's the KBoards way.*

Betsy
KB Mod


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## KelliWolfe

Jericho said:


> And for the record, I never said Amazon wasn't the largest platform, or that they _can_ create a platform for unsurpassed visibility. We all know that. That's why we're here. But if they're not paying the author correctly for that advantage? What's the point? They're still ripping people off. If they spread an author's name far and wide, but don't pay them for correctly for their sales... it's still harming the author financially. Can't pay rent on reputations and visibility. Gotta have that green stuff.
> 
> And if they can provide visibility... don't you think they can take it away just as easily?


The point is that there is still more money in KU than out of it, for most of us. Keeping the lights on trumps just about everything else.

I've been outspoken against KU since Amazon implemented it two years ago. It isn't any better now than it was then. Frankly, it's worse. But...

At the same time, none of the other major distributors have done anything substantial to improve their self-publishing systems in years. Nook Press is Pubit with a slower and glitchier UI. Apple has done nothing except yank erotica out of the ranking categories. Google and Kobo have done nothing to improve their publisher systems since the betas. Google actively suppresses indie titles in their searches and category browsing. Kobo has gone to great lengths to make their website substantially worse from both a reader and publisher perspective, plus they abandoned the US market to Amazon. In other words, they've done exactly nothing for us.

In that same time Amazon has added author pages, series pages, a lot more categories, search filters based on genre and length, RSS feeds to our blogs for our author pages, the ability to follow authors, etc. etc. etc. They started Montlake Press and Kindle Worlds and Kindle Scout. Yes, they're dicking us hard with the things they've done in KU. But at the same time they've actually put some effort into getting better at selling ebooks and cultivating indie authors, which apparently no one else can be bothered with.

These are our choices. They're not good choices. The same choice won't work out the same for everyone. They can be different for a person's various pen names. I'm keeping my Kelli catalog wide because I make anywhere from 30-50% of my income on the other distributors. But even given the way Amazon is jerking us around on KU, going wide isn't necessarily better.

Edit: And I'll just add that traditional publishers have been screwing writers out of royalties since Gutenberg. It's pretty much an industry tradition.


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## Gertie Kindle

KelliWolfe said:


> Edit: And I'll just add that traditional publishers have been screwing writers out of royalties since Gutenberg. It's pretty much an industry tradition.


I've been thinking this for quite some time. Same withe music industry, same with the fashion industry and I'm sure a lot more. That doesn't excuse any of them.


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## katrina46

KelliWolfe said:


> The point is that there is still more money in KU than out of it, for most of us. Keeping the lights on trumps just about everything else.
> 
> I've been outspoken against KU since Amazon implemented it two years ago. It isn't any better now than it was then. Frankly, it's worse. But...
> 
> At the same time, none of the other major distributors have done anything substantial to improve their self-publishing systems in years. Nook Press is Pubit with a slower and glitchier UI. Apple has done nothing except yank erotica out of the ranking categories. Google and Kobo have done nothing to improve their publisher systems since the betas. Google actively suppresses indie titles in their searches and category browsing. Kobo has gone to great lengths to make their website substantially worse from both a reader and publisher perspective, plus they abandoned the US market to Amazon. In other words, they've done exactly nothing for us.
> 
> In that same time Amazon has added author pages, series pages, a lot more categories, search filters based on genre and length, RSS feeds to our blogs for our author pages, the ability to follow authors, etc. etc. etc. They started Montlake Press and Kindle Worlds and Kindle Scout. Yes, they're dicking us hard with the things they've done in KU. But at the same time they've actually put some effort into getting better at selling ebooks and cultivating indie authors, which apparently no one else can be bothered with.
> 
> These are our choices. They're not good choices. The same choice won't work out the same for everyone. They can be different for a person's various pen names. I'm keeping my Kelli catalog wide because I make anywhere from 30-50% of my income on the other distributors. But even given the way Amazon is jerking us around on KU, going wide isn't necessarily better.
> 
> Edit: And I'll just add that traditional publishers have been screwing writers out of royalties since Gutenberg. It's pretty much an industry tradition.


I think it somewhat depends on your genre. Kellie Wolf is erotica. I told you how good I've been doing on other sites this month. You don't need a mega bundle to charge 9.99 anywhere but Amazon. You don't get as many sales, but you don't need as many because readers still pay decent over there as opposed to looking for free in KU and 99 cent stories. Plus the algos are very sticky. Olivia Blake is romance. That's a harder sell and might do better in KU.


----------



## tommy gun

Hmm, Betsy if I could get called 'Ninja' that would be awesome.
Do you have any leftover turkey you would be willing to share?


----------



## sela

I missed some of the edited material, so if anyone was calling me a secret agent or apologist for Amazon, I hope to dispel that misapprehension. 

I have hated on KU since it started. I hated KU 1.0 and I dislike KU 2.0. I don't like the concept and I don't like the way Amazon administers it. I dislike intensely the fact that Amazon tells us what we will be paid _after_ the fact. I dislike intensely the way it lowers/raises and adjusts the KENP and payout with no notice. I dislike the way it changed programs with two weeks notice, harming a whole lot of authors writing short fiction in one fell swoop. I dislike exclusivity with a passion.

Hence, I don't play the game -- at least, not all in. I cycle my lower-selling series in and out when I am in between Bookbubs, to try to keep reaching new readers. I will not put all my eggs in one basket, so I keep my best selling series wide. I don't like the idea of being totally reliant on any retailer. Amazon is not my friend. It is not really even a business partner, because that would suggest we are on some kind of equal footing, which we are not.

At the same time, we are all reliant on Amazon because it does what it does so well. It has pretty much cornered the market. It has succeeded by putting customers first and privileging growth over short term profits. It has also succeeded by being ruthless, in its pricing strategies. It figured out the way into the pocket books of middle class America using books as a loss leader to sell everything else. It enabled all of us to have a chance to bypass the old gatekeepers and have a chance at selling books that the trade publishers would never touch.

I try to make my points for one reason: I think authors should focus their energy where it will give them a positive ROI, which is not railing against Amazon. It is in understanding yourself as a writer and what you want to accomplish as an author and then figuring out how to accomplish that via indie publishing.

Trying to fight Amazon?

Might as well tilt at windmills...


----------



## notjohn

KelliWolfe said:


> Right now I'm considering going all-in to KU with my Olivia Blake catalog, because after over a year of being wide more than 80% of the income on it is still from Amazon. And the income on the other sites is *falling*, not growing. New releases? Promotions? Make no difference at all. They sit. They do nothing.


Okay, for every 100 books you sell, Amazon accounts for 80 and the other guys for 20. Do the math: that's twenty-five percent! Are you willing to give up 25 percent of your income?

As for income falling elsewhere, I've found the opposite to be true: it has held steady on Draft2Digital while Amazon's has fallen sharply in September, October, and November. Possibly some of that has to do with the US election. I've noticed that Apple's share of 2016 royalties has gone up, while B&N's has declined along with Amazon's. I attribute that to the fact that Apple sells quite a few books out of the country. Similarly, Amazon's out-of-country sales have also held steady; it's the US store sales that have dropped.

FWIW, I just did a quick check. For every $5 I earn through Apple, I earn $4 from B&N and $1 each from Kobo and Scribd (unlike KU, Scribd pays a royalty on books borrowed). Tolino also sells enough to deserve a bar of its own, but the amount is not worth calculating.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

KelliWolfe said:


> Sometimes reality isn't pretty. It's just what we're stuck with, and we have to do the best we can with what we've got. I am not a big Amazon fan, and I have a major dislike for KU.
> 
> Right now I'm considering going all-in to KU with my Olivia Blake catalog, because after over a year of being wide more than 80% of the income on it is still from Amazon. And the income on the other sites is *falling*, not growing. New releases? Promotions? Make no difference at all. They sit. They do nothing.
> 
> But on Amazon? I did one minimal round of promotions back in April for less than $100 that blasted me way past anything I'd seen in the previous four years on my main pen name. My latest, a contemporary Gothic, has climbed the freebie ranks all on it's own and hit #7 in the Gothic category earlier this week. All three of my permafrees on that pen name are sticking in the Top 100 lists. How much better would I be doing if I had KU downloads to go with my sales?


^^This. Diminished returns on my wide books this past year was enough to make me go back to KU. Despite the issues, it was the right move and I am actually kicking myself for waiting so long.



sela said:


> At the same time, we are all reliant on Amazon because it does what it does so well. It has pretty much cornered the market. It has succeeded by putting customers first and privileging growth over short term profits. It has also succeeded by being ruthless, in its pricing strategies. It figured out the way into the pocket books of middle class America using books as a loss leader to sell everything else. It enabled all of us to have a chance to bypass the old gatekeepers and have a chance at selling books that the trade publishers would never touch.
> 
> I try to make my points for one reason: I think authors should focus their energy where it will give them a positive ROI, which is not railing against Amazon. It is in understanding yourself as a writer and what you want to accomplish as an author and then figuring out how to accomplish that via indie publishing.
> 
> Trying to fight Amazon?
> 
> Might as well tilt at windmills...


^^ Agree. Amazon doesn't care if you pull your books out of KU, or even unpublish your books entirely. But at this point, I feel like that's cutting off your nose to spite your face. 
We all know something was wonky with the page reads. Each author has to decide how to deal with that, just like we have to adapt to all the changes in this biz.


----------



## KelliWolfe

notjohn said:


> Okay, for every 100 books you sell, Amazon accounts for 80 and the other guys for 20. Do the math: that's twenty-five percent! Are you willing to give up 25 percent of your income?
> 
> As for income falling elsewhere, I've found the opposite to be true: it has held steady on Draft2Digital while Amazon's has fallen sharply in September, October, and November. Possibly some of that has to do with the US election. I've noticed that Apple's share of 2016 royalties has gone up, while B&N's has declined along with Amazon's. I attribute that to the fact that Apple sells quite a few books out of the country. Similarly, Amazon's out-of-country sales have also held steady; it's the US store sales that have dropped.
> 
> FWIW, I just did a quick check. For every $5 I earn through Apple, I earn $4 from B&N and $1 each from Kobo and Scribd (unlike KU, Scribd pays a royalty on books borrowed). Tolino also sells enough to deserve a bar of its own, but the amount is not worth calculating.


20%. Not 25%. And falling. And it isn't as though it's a complete write-off, because even at worst I will earn some fraction of it back with KU. I've done the math and I can live without it for 3 months, even if the worst case does play out, so it's a calculated risk.

I'm not looking at short term trends. I don't care about the election. It's a blip. I've got 5 years' worth of data publishing wide - I'm not looking at individual months, and I'm not singling out US-only retailers.

Google - Despite adding a new pen name and new releases, sales there have dropped by more than 50% in the last 24 months. There was a time when I was consistently making more there than I was on Amazon, but changes to their algos to favor tradpub titles over indies has taken that off the table, and every month it drops a little more. At this rate it won't be long before I can't even maintain 4 figures a month there.

Kobo - 24 months ago I was clearing well over 4 figures a month there. Now I'm in the low 3 figures and it's dropping every month, again despite adding a new pen name and a big stack of new releases. They've made changes to their store and algos that make visibility next to impossible.

Apple - I only do well there during the months that someone decides to promote one of my series. That's a total crap shoot, and in the months when they don't promo my income there looks about like Kobo.

Smashwords doesn't break 3 figures a month, but it still brings in more than Scribd and Tolino and all the other smaller sites combined.

So what have I really got to lose? Not much.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

tomgermann said:


> Hmm, Betsy if I could get called 'Ninja' that would be awesome.
> Do you have any leftover turkey you would be willing to share?


Sure, "Ninja" tomgermann, here ya go:










Enjoy!


----------



## tommy gun

FOOD!!!!!!!!! 
NOM NOM NOM NOM!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BloodHound

Edit: And I'll just add that traditional publishers have been screwing writers out of royalties since Gutenberg. It's pretty much an industry tradition.
[/quote]

When I see a statement like that I interpret it to be: Ha, I'm making a lot of money and I'm willing to let possible if not likely criminal activity proceed against others as long as I get what I need. You'd never hear anybody in the hippie generation making such statements and hiding behind such well-versed civility. OMG Since its tradition we should all lay down expect to be run over. If you're as outspoken as you claim about KU there are government agencies that will listen anonymously and investigate. Plus if you're that well informed its common knowledge Amazon has a very poor track record with them. God bless there are still people like Jericho willing to speak up.


----------



## KelliWolfe

BloodHound said:


> Edit: And I'll just add that traditional publishers have been screwing writers out of royalties since Gutenberg. It's pretty much an industry tradition.
> 
> When I see a statement like that I interpret it to be: Ha, I'm making a lot of money and I'm willing to let possible if not likely criminal activity proceed against others as long as I get what I need. You'd never hear anybody in the hippie generation making such statements and hiding behind such well-versed civility. OMG Since its tradition we should all lay down expect to be run over. If you're as outspoken as you claim about KU there are government agencies that will listen anonymously and investigate. Plus if you're that well informed its common knowledge Amazon has a very poor track record with them. God bless there are still people like Jericho willing to speak up.


*sigh*
I'm not making a lot of money. Most months I'm a hair away from having to go back to my day job. Which is precisely why I'm going all-in on KU with my Olivia Blake catalog. Because no matter how badly Amazon is screwing up or is screwing us over, they are STILL light years better than their "competition." And I'm using that term very, very loosely.

Do I like it? No. But unlike the hippie generation I'm a realist. I'm not living in some fantasy world based on how I think the world *should* be, rather than how it really is. Big corporations are going to screw us out of every single dime they possibly can so the CEO can buy that second yacht and afford a bigger vacation home in the Hamptons. Doesn't matter if it's Harlequin or Amazon or Google. They'll all throw us under the bus in a heartbeat if it will give them a better quarterly report. My only interest is maximizing what my business can get out of it. If that means playing with an Amazon who cheats us out of page reads as opposed to Google and Kobo trying to hide us and treat us like something that came out of the cat box, that's what I'll do.

Government agencies aren't going to do a blessed thing to Amazon. Or at least they aren't going to do anything to them that has any bearing on us. They got them to cough up some more taxes. That's all the government cares about. They certainly DO NOT care about Amazon screwing you and me out of a few dollars here and there on page reads. Even if that "few" is a bit more than a few.


----------



## H.C.

I see "Clever man" and "boy with donkey" both dropped out of the hot 100...finally.


----------



## Sailor Stone

Has taking out links to author websites and other such things from the back of books helped to restore the pages read on books that had crashed earlier this summer and fall? I see where some authors have tried that on this thread but as to whether it worked/helped or not hasn't been fully answered.
FWIW - I don't think this issue is resolved at all. I have ten books in KU now and I am only promoting one. That one book seems to be doing okay on pages read but I have no way of really knowing. Throughout October it was ranked between 1000 and 25000 on paid rankings and averaged about one thousand pages read a day. To me that seems low but I have no way of knowing. 
What is worrisome is that over the last week I have had three of my books that I am not promoting each show one page read. I don't get how three books can all of a sudden have this happen (who reads one page?) unless my links in them to my website are kicking the book back to the front after they read it.
Any insight is much appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Sailor Stone said:


> What is worrisome is that over the last week I have had three of my books that I am not promoting each show one page read. I don't get how three books can all of a sudden have this happen (who reads one page?) unless my links in them to my website are kicking the book back to the front after they read it.


The one-page-read issue bobs up from time to time, and it may have become more of an issue recently, I don't know, but there have _always_ been single pages recorded. I had my first on 2nd July 2015, the second day of KU2, and they've recurred many times since then. You just don't notice them unless your pages read are low anyway, or if you occasionally go off and check numbers in countries with lower rates of borrowing. I have always assumed that they occur when someone downloads a KU book from their Kindle/other device and it opens automatically at Chapter One. If the punter decides not to read any more just then - voila, one page read.

It looks to me as if a fan downloaded three of your books all at once, but hasn't yet started reading them.


----------



## Sailor Stone

PaulineMRoss said:


> The one-page-read issue bobs up from time to time, and it may have become more of an issue recently, I don't know, but there have _always_ been single pages recorded. I had my first on 2nd July 2015, the second day of KU2, and they've recurred many times since then. You just don't notice them unless your pages read are low anyway, or if you occasionally go off and check numbers in countries with lower rates of borrowing. I have always assumed that they occur when someone downloads a KU book from their Kindle/other device and it opens automatically at Chapter One. If the punter decides not to read any more just then - voila, one page read.
> 
> It looks to me as if a fan downloaded three of your books all at once, but hasn't yet started reading them.


I never thought of the download causing the one page read. That is heartening to consider. Thanks.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

As a reader, I probably download a good 15 KU books a week. I open the first page, realize I know right away if it's going to be for me (yes, on the first page) and start dumping. I probably continue reading two of the 15 after the first page. It has nothing to do with writing ability and everything to do with the story being to my taste. I can guarantee multiple people a day start my stuff and discard after reading one page because of the snark and immaturity. People message and tell me.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Amanda M. Lee said:


> As a reader, I probably download a good 15 KU books a week. I open the first page, realize I know right away if it's going to be for me (yes, on the first page) and start dumping.


So you don't use the Look Inside? Just asking.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> So you don't use the Look Inside? Just asking.


I only use the Look Inside if I'm buying a physical book (which is so rare now it might happen twice a year).


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Amanda M. Lee said:


> As a reader, I probably download a good 15 KU books a week. I open the first page, realize I know right away if it's going to be for me (yes, on the first page) and start dumping. I probably continue reading two of the 15 after the first page. It has nothing to do with writing ability and everything to do with the story being to my taste. I can guarantee multiple people a day start my stuff and discard after reading one page because of the snark and immaturity. People message and tell me.





Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> So you don't use the Look Inside? Just asking.


I do as Amanda does -- though I probably don't dump quite so many so fast  -- and, no, I don't use Look Inside.

Over the last year that I've had KU I've always had at least 6 borrowed and usually the limit of 10. And I don't get to them right away, but almost all get opened when they get downloaded so they 'register' as one page. Most I do read to the end, but there are a large minority of KU books that I start and decide not to finish -- could be anywhere from 5% to 30%. But I might have borrowed it some time ago and still haven't 'read' past the first page. 

Look Inside isn't a feature that works for me. Mainly, my problem is that if I start reading something, it sticks in my brain. So I want to finish it directly. If I don't and then I pick the book up again later, I'm never sure whether I've actually read the whole thing! So I DON'T read a sample unless I intend to finish it. Or, dump it as DNF if I decide it's not for me. And I keep track of that so I know for myself, later. And that's why I don't use Look Inside -- in addition to the fact that I don't want to read on my computer: if I do, I end up with a snippet of a book that is in my brain that confuses my organization.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

@Amanda & @Ann

Thanks for the perspective.


----------



## KelliWolfe

And why bother if the book is in KU and you can just return it if you don't like it after reading the first couple of pages anyway? It's not like you're buying it and want to make sure that you're getting good value *before* you sink your money into it.


----------



## sela

I think it's completely fair to complain about Amazon policies and processes and still use them as a retailer. They are the biggest after all and indies rely on them for revenues. That doesn't mean we shouldn't note discrepancies and raise them with Amazon when we find them. I don't discount anyone's experience. Some people have seen a huge drop in page reads in September, October, and November. Is it because of the 30 / 90 day cliffs? Or is it due to some new program Amazon has rolled out, a beta test of some anti-scam program? I can't say in any given case unless I see an author's sales history.

We _know_ that the page flip function can result in an entire book being read with only one page being recorded. Amazon says this is not a big factor in page read totals. We also know that many people download books and then open to the first page to check if they have been opened and then never read, resulting in one page read. We don't know how much of those single KENP is due to this or the page flip function. How does an author know if they are experiencing these bugs and whether they are a big factor in page reads total? I don't know for sure. It's so hard to know whether page read declines and increases are due to any one thing. We only have partial information. Amazon has total information but they aren't telling.

So... what is an author to do?

If you note discrepancies that you can't explain, share the information. It's important that we talk to each other because we as individuals have no power. Sharing knowledge helps us make more informed decisions about business, including whether to go into KU or wide, etc. However, I am highly suspect that we can do anything collective. Amazon is one of the biggest corporations EVER and it is not likely going to respond to suppliers. It will likely only respond to the complaints of customers. If customers are happy, Amazon will likely shrug at a few dozen or even a few hundred dozen authors writing to complain or posting on Facebook etc. Amazon is still the big kahuna and will stay that way until another competitor comes along who can beat Amazon at its on game.

Until then, we indies have to make the best of it. Being indie means independent, and provides us with freedom, but it also exposes us to considerable risk. We don't have that collective power that the trad publishers have to negotiate.

Making the best of it means understanding what you face as a business person and working around that and within that reality. Sure, complain, share experiences, but I don't have much faith that we can do much to address it. There are too many happy customers, and too many happy suppliers. Until those two factors change, Amazon will likely continue to do exactly what it wants.

That may sound defeatist. To me, it sounds like harsh reality.

Look at your bottom line: on the whole, are your sales better with with Amazon KU, or Amazon + Wide? Assess and act accordingly. Write more books. Write them the best you can. Present them the best you can in a genre appropriate way. Promote your books as best you can. That's all any of us can do.

YMMV


----------



## TellNotShow

KelliWolfe said:


> The point is that there is still more money in KU than out of it, for most of us.


Most of who?
Erotica writers? Romance writers? KBoards authors?

The "us" you speak of is an "us" decided by you, according to your own perception of who "us" is, and how YOU believe that "us" is doing in KU and out of it.

I get that. Sort of. I'm sometimes tempted to believe everyone else's experience must be like mine - in which case they'd run screaming away from KU, even without the recent evidence of Amazon systematically scamming us out of some of our rightful payments.

The problem is, some people, lacking much experience at all either way, form beliefs and make decisions based on stuff they read here.
So, for some balance:
I think I'm a pretty good test of the KU or Wide argument, because I have two series, same length, same genre, different pen names, one long term KU, the other long term wide. Both have had plenty of promo, and both had series starters at #1 in free on Amazon due to Bookbub promo.
Certainly, the KU half of this particular "us", is finding that there's not much money in KU at all. Results were never that great in KU, even though those books were doing well on Amazon while they were wide. To begin with, KU paid for most of what they lost from not being wide. But not for long. And even after hitting the top of Amazon's free store, the results have been underwhelming compared to being wide.
While the other half, the wide half, is finding there's plenty of money to be had on Apple and B&N and Amazon, plus a little on Google Play and Kobo as well. That series continues to sell on all retailers, albeit very little on two of them. (Still, even that few extra hundred a month is great to have.) And it continues to sell on Amazon (although its ranking is terrible there because of the punishment of not being exclusive), and it makes more money just on Amazon than the other series, despite the other series ranking higher.

Just saying - there are different people getting different results, and while some people get no traction on other retailers, that doesn't mean everyone fails everywhere else and decides to run back to KU. In fact, there are many people here who tell you of their success on Apple or GP or Nook or Kobo,, and a few very vocal people keep treating those words as if they're somehow not real. But they are real, and plenty of people are succeeding on one or more of these various different retailers.

Also, jumping in and out of the other retailers pretty much makes for certain failure there - just as it would if we stopped selling our books at Amazon for three months then went back and expected to get immediate sales.

The point is, there isn't just one way to succeed. Choose a path and stick to it awhile, and give it everything you have. There's no way of absolutely knowing if your path was the perfect one for you - but if it's working, be happy with that, and keep moving forward.



sela said:


> Making the best of it means understanding what you face as a business person and working around that and within that reality. Sure, complain, share experiences, but I don't have much faith that we can do much to address it. There are too many happy customers, and too many happy suppliers. Until those two factors change, Amazon will likely continue to do exactly what it wants.
> 
> That may sound defeatist. To me, it sounds like harsh reality.
> 
> Look at your bottom line: on the whole, are your sales better with with Amazon KU, or Amazon + Wide? Assess and act accordingly. Write more books. Write them the best you can. Present them the best you can in a genre appropriate way. Promote your books as best you can. That's all any of us can do.
> 
> YMMV


Despite the best efforts of some, such as Jericho, who continues to bash his head against the Amazon wall for us all - thank you to all who have tried - Amazon WILL do whatever they want, no matter how unreasonable, unfair, or even illegal (if the illegality can't easily be proved in a way that doesn't cost the accuser more than they have).

In my opinion, this advice from Sela is the best any of us will get. So suck in some deep breaths, and when the bell rings, get up from the stool and start punching again - and keep doing so until the end of the fight. (PS: The fight doesn't end unless you give up or die. Don't ever give up, even when your punches aren't landing - you'll get your second wind sooner or later. Or you'll die - we will all do that. And when you do, wouldn't it be best to be remembered as someone who kept getting up and kept punching?)


----------



## 75845

There is little doubt that over time Kindle Unlimited will suffer the echo chamber effect. Those genres that do well will have a good representation in the library, while other authors of other genres will talk in their networks about how the current KU membership is not really interested in those type of books. Then those KU members who were interested in those types of books will cancel as they find less that interests them to justify the monthly fee, which to some customers is a lot of money. This effect was already seen in KU1 and Amazon changed it at short notice to create KU2, which had its own echo chamber effect. One particular echo chamber effect to watch out for is non fiction authors and the student market they attract. If large swathes of non fiction authors decide that KU is too novel based (e.g., if actual pages read was ever introduced or books with appendices were punished) would the student market stay for the novel reads or would they go because they had lost their cheap essay resources? Its horses for courses and I'm glad I've already got my non fiction ass out of there.


----------



## David VanDyke

notjohn said:


> Okay, for every 100 books you sell, Amazon accounts for 80 and the other guys for 20. Do the math: that's twenty-five percent! Are you willing to give up 25 percent of your income?


Umm, yeah... 20 out of 100 is 25%.

Right.

*facepalm*.


----------



## KelliWolfe

He was using Amazon Page Read math.


----------



## H.C.

KelliWolfe said:


> He was using Amazon Page Read math.


----------



## SimboSmith

I just thought I'd add my tuppence-worth... I had a huge drop in pages read as well, but I have a guidebook, which I'm guessing is one type of book that suffers badly from this. People generally don't read guidebooks from start to finish, they jump all over the place to find whichever bit of info they need. But at the same time... they might also jump straight to the end, if that's where the info is.

So maybe I was benefitting from the people who jumped forward, and suffering from the ones who jumped back. Swings and roundabouts. I figured it would just roughly even out in the end. But in practice my page reads have plummeted. Really plummeted... massively! Just like a lot of people in this thread. So I can't figure that out.


----------



## TellNotShow

> Okay, for every 100 books you sell, Amazon accounts for 80 and the other guys for 20. Do the math: that's twenty-five percent! Are you willing to give up 25 percent of your income?





KelliWolfe said:


> He was using Amazon Page Read math.


No, that's more like Amazon's "Sales Royalties math." 
As in, "We call it 70% royalties. And it IS 70%, truly it is - minus 2 or 3, okay then, sometimes 4 percent for a delivery fee, even though delivery doesn't actually cost anything because people use their wifi. Although if you wanna make the books better with maps or photos or stuff, well that'll be extra, because maybe someday someone won't be using wifi, and here at Amazon we don't have any bandwidth, so we have to charge you, just in case, yeah? 
Oh yeah, it's 35% in lots of countries. 
Oh, just one more thing, it's 35% everywhere else too if you price below $2.99 or above $9.99. 
Oh sorry, there's something else, not that you'll notice, it's just that in some countries, we charge a $2 International Delivery Fee - so if your book is 99 cents there, hey, you get 35 cents and we only keep $2.65, which is fair because you're getting almost 12%, right? 
And when you've made a book free, we still charge the reader the $2 fee in those countries, just to keep it a level playing field and be REALLY fair to everyone, and, well, we keep the whole lot for ourselves so there's nothing to argue about. So yeah, your share is actually 70% there, but without the 7, you know, so yeah, zero% as it should be, because, ummm, we're The Zon! Cheer loudly! Yay... Royalties. Yay... yay..."

Now THIS is Amazon Page Read math:

Hmmm, we'll pay, oh, we're feeling generous this month, let's call it 0.5 cents per page. 
Only, the way we now prefer to count them, books actually only have 1 page. (Well, that's how we program them, because, seriously, it scrolls all the way down if you want it to, one gigantic page, yeah? And it's our right to do this under our TOS, you signed it so don't bother complaining, we'll count the page however we want.)
Therefore, 1 x 0.5 = 0.5 cents each time someone in KU reads a book. 
We call it Amazon Page Read math. Cool ain't it?
Yay.
Zon.
Yay.


----------



## Gissel Escudero

RBN said:


> The Kindle Store as accessed through the Books tab on a Fire doesn't even offer Look Inside. I don't know how it works in other apps, but it may be that everyone not shopping through the .com has no option other than downloading in order to look at the contents.


Now you can embed free samples on your website or blog, via snippets of HTML code. People can click on the cover image and a new tab opens where they can read the sample. Or you can embed the sample as a window within the website/blog. Looks great, by the way.


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## Ann in Arlington

Gissel Escudero said:


> Now you can embed free samples on your website or blog, via snippets of HTML code. People can click on the cover image and a new tab opens where they can read the sample. Or you can embed the sample as a window within the website/blog. Looks great, by the way.


Which is nice, I suppose, if you're on a tablet, phone, or computer.

Useless on an eInk Kindle.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

TellNotShow said:


> And when you've made a book free, we still charge the reader the $2 fee in those countries, just to keep it a level playing field and be REALLY fair to everyone, and, well, we keep the whole lot for ourselves so there's nothing to argue about. So yeah, your share is actually 70% there, but without the 7, you know, so yeah, zero% as it should be, because, ummm, we're The Zon! Cheer loudly! Yay... Royalties. Yay... yay..."


I haven't found that to be the case in SA. If I set my book to FREE, the readers get it free in SA, where they are normally charged the extra delivery fee.


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## Gissel Escudero

RBN said:


> It also relies on the reader being on your website at the time. Not even 1% of my readers have ever visited my site. That is NOT where they're looking for writing samples.


Well, the Share links (which open those tabs to read the free samples) can be plugged anywhere else. Like, at the end of your books, tweets or any other promotional material. Not useful with eInk Kindle devices indeed, but I'd like to know how many people are reading books there anyway. As far as I know (I may be wrong, of course, but that's what I've read), eInk devices sales are decreasing.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

SimboSmith said:


> I just thought I'd add my tuppence-worth... I had a huge drop in pages read as well, but I have a guidebook, which I'm guessing is one type of book that suffers badly from this. People generally don't read guidebooks from start to finish, they jump all over the place to find whichever bit of info they need. But at the same time... they might also jump straight to the end, if that's where the info is.
> 
> So maybe I was benefitting from the people who jumped forward, and suffering from the ones who jumped back. Swings and roundabouts. I figured it would just roughly even out in the end. But in practice my page reads have plummeted. Really plummeted... massively! Just like a lot of people in this thread. So I can't figure that out.


Your situation is exactly the reason that I have lately come to the opinion that a borrow should generate a fixed, stipulated number of pages read--say 2/3 of the KENPC count, with a 50 minimum and 2000 maximum (after 1/3 reduction). Let Amazon find another way to deal with the scammers and at least give the ordinary us a shot at our reads.

This would eliminate any kind of dependency on the counting of pages, given that Amazon doesn't seem to want to do it the right way, viz., by using a bit-table of KENPC pages actually viewed; it also gets rid of the Page-Flip issue.

And to bring back a modified version of a proposal for which I was shot down earlier: After some calculations, I think that just a $1 one-time-per-title fee would be more than sufficient for Amazon to be able to hire people to eyeball KDP submissions to determine if they are real or scam. It would beat down the bogus titles on the one hand and give the rest of us more in per-page rate AND more in exposure--not having to compete with artificial crap in the top 100 listings. If we go this route, then I also think that the stipulated KENPC count per borrow should be the full value (not 2/3), subject to a 50 minimum and the current 3000 maximum.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Your situation is exactly the reason that I have lately come to the opinion that a borrow should generate a fixed, stipulated number of pages read--say 2/3 of the KENPC count, with a 50 minimum and 2000 maximum (after 1/3 reduction). Let Amazon find another way to deal with the scammers and at least give the ordinary us a shot at our reads.


So you want to combine the worst of both worlds from KU 1.0/2.0 as far as scamming? Because that's what would happen. The store would be flooded with 3000 KENPC garbage books that would just have to be borrowed - not read - by their click farms. People would start getting even worse about bundling - "Read my short story and get my two novels included in the back as a bonus!" It would be a step backwards for Amazon, and they're not going to do that.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

KelliWolfe said:


> So you want to combine the worst of both worlds from KU 1.0/2.0 as far as scamming? Because that's what would happen. The store would be flooded with 3000 KENPC garbage books that would just have to be borrowed - not read - by their click farms. People would start getting even worse about bundling - "Read my short story and get my two novels included in the back as a bonus!" It would be a step backwards for Amazon, and they're not going to do that.


Please also read the 2nd half of my post. that's why you'd have the humans to look at the oeuvres.

Edit: Of course any setup can be abused. A scammer could, e.g., upload a 200-page title and, after getting approval, upload an update to the title that is 1950 page long. That, however, could be thwarted by having any significant increase in size, on an update, force another human-eyes review.


----------



## Anarchist

sela said:


> That may sound defeatist. To me, it sounds like harsh reality.


It sounds like reason.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

I can't decide how I feel about people "checking" the books. Gatekeepers make me nervous (for obvious reasons). Sure, at first it will be easy to weed out some of the scammers. What happens when that's done, though? Who gets to decide what's quality and what's not? Whenever you're dealing with humans there is some degree of personal preference going into the process. I seem to remember there was one checker who no one wanted getting a gander at their erotica titles at one time because he was more often to block them when others would let them pass. So, was there something wrong with those titles or was this guy just a prude? When you extrapolate that to other genres, who gets to decide what's a good book and what's a scam book? To me that opens a worrisome can of worms.
All that being said, I think there should be a human checking things. Some of this stuff ... like the same paragraph repeated over and over, the link scam at the beginning of books, padded titles with eight bonus books, etc. Those should all be eliminated.
A flat fee for books does not fix the first KU problem. Amazon wanted subscribers but people were mostly shoving short things into KU to trigger as many payouts as possible and subscribers were dropping out of KU because they wanted novels. Amazon tried to point authors to what readers wanted, authors didn't listen, and that's why you got KU2. Amazon feels the need to incentivize longer reads because that's what more readers (notice I didn't say all)  tend to want and they have to shape the ecosystem in a certain manner to keep those subscribers. If you do a base pay and then prorate on the length of the book, all you're going to get is people stuffing more and more books in the titles. If you do a base pay and then prorate based on the price of the book, all of the scammers will move their books up to the max $9.99. There's no program that's scam proof.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Amanda M. Lee said:


> A flat fee for books does not fix the first KU problem. Amazon wanted subscribers but people were mostly shoving short things into KU to trigger as many payouts as possible and subscribers were dropping out of KU because they wanted novels.


By paying per page count, subject to 50 minimum and 3000 maximum, short things would get about 23-24 cents per borrow. That'd be fair for those that write and for those that appreciate short works. We wouldn't be going back to the KU1 "flat fee."

Later Edit: By giving the short works a 50-KENPC minimum, I'm trying to recognize the fact that writing short stories _is_ an art, and that some folks do appreciate that art. With the frenetic pace of modern life, it should also be the case that the appreciation of good short stories should be on the increase; why this appears not so bewilders me at times. Of course, writing short fiction that is full-bodied enough to bite into does take a bit of talent. Most short tales that I've read have characters that are, um, "paper-thin."


----------



## KelliWolfe

Amanda M. Lee said:


> There's no program that's scam proof.


The money quote. This is because for the $9.99 price of a subscription fee a scammer can generate many, many, many times that much in page read revenue. The exact same kind of things happen with music subscription services. There are bots that generate artificial listens, scam tracks that get uploaded, click fraud, etc. The pay in/pay out imbalance of any digital subscription service guarantees that this is going to happen.


----------



## SomeoneElse

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> By paying per page count, subject to 50 minimum and 3000 maximum, short things would get about 23-24 cents per borrow. That'd be fair for those that write and for those that appreciate short works. We wouldn't be going back to the KU1 "flat fee."


I can't really see the benefit of your idea, apart from having a definitive payment so you don't have to wait to know your earnings. You're saying if someone reads half a 500 page book, that author should get nothing, but if someone reads all of a 60 page book, that author gets paid. How is that fair? The first author entertained the reader for more than 4 times as many pages.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

LSMay said:


> I can't really see the benefit of your idea, apart from having a definitive payment so you don't have to wait to know your earnings. You're saying if someone reads half a 500 page book, that author should get nothing, but if someone reads all of a 60 page book, that author gets paid. How is that fair? The first author entertained the reader for more than 4 times as many pages.


Er, am I not writing in English? The 500-KENPC book author would get credited for the 500. A 200-KENPC author would get credited for 200. A 37-KENPC short would get credited for 50. A Dostoevskyesque saga of 3240 pages would get a credit of 3000.

Again, this only works if you have human eyes on the titles being submitted (see earlier posts).


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> By paying per page count, subject to 50 minimum and 3000 maximum, short things would get about 23-24 cents per borrow. That'd be fair for those that write and for those that appreciate short works. We wouldn't be going back to the KU1 "flat fee."


And what's to stop people from padding with bonus books to increase length?


----------



## SimboSmith

i'm sure amazon could fix it quite easily if they wanted to.
the kindle is basically just a computer, after all. and surely it's not beyond the wit of a modern-day computer to keep a record of all of the pages that have been viewed  for longer than... say, 30 seconds (or whatever number you want to pick).
when you remember that a kindle is already perfectly capable of remembering our bookmarks on pages, highlights on pages, notes on pages, and other readers notes on pages... why not the pages themselves?


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## Committed Scribe

There's an easy solution to that problem Amanda. One book should have only one title. Amazon shouldn't allow twenty bonus titles with one short story. Just this one rule will get rid of most of the garbage from KU.


----------



## SomeoneElse

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Er, am I not writing in English? The 500-KENPC book author would get credited for the 500. A 200-KENPC author would get credited for 200. A 37-KENPC short would get credited for 50. A Dostoevskyesque saga of 3240 pages would get a credit of 3000.
> 
> Again, this only works if you have human eyes on the titles being submitted (see earlier posts).


What you said here:


Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Your situation is exactly the reason that I have lately come to the opinion that a borrow should generate a fixed, stipulated number of pages read--say 2/3 of the KENPC count, with a 50 minimum and 2000 maximum (after 1/3 reduction). Let Amazon find another way to deal with the scammers and at least give the ordinary us a shot at our reads.
> 
> This would eliminate any kind of dependency on the counting of pages, given that Amazon doesn't seem to want to do it the right way, viz., by using a bit-table of KENPC pages actually viewed; it also gets rid of the Page-Flip issue.


made it sound like you were suggesting the author was not paid until 2/3rds of the pages were read. Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

LSMay said:


> What you said here:
> made it sound like you were suggesting the author was not paid until 2/3rds of the pages were read. Thank you for clarifying.


Edit: I originally misinterpreted LSMay's response. To keep things clear, I'm repeating the other half of my referenced post:

And to bring back a modified version of a proposal for which I was shot down earlier: After some calculations, I think that just a $1 one-time-per-title fee would be more than sufficient for Amazon to be able to hire people to eyeball KDP submissions to determine if they are real or scam. It would beat down the bogus titles on the one hand and give the rest of us more in per-page rate AND more in exposure--not having to compete with artificial crap in the top 100 listings. If we go this route, then I also think that the stipulated KENPC count per borrow should be the full value (not 2/3), subject to a 50 minimum and the current 3000 maximum.

Apologies to LSMay. My posts were proposing a method of attack that did not rely on trying to count pages-read at all--just assume that a borrow meant a full read. That, overall, would even things out among the writership, as the payout pool is fixed and only the payout portion (per writer) would be adjusted. Reputation and reviews would eventually weed out the lesser titles.


----------



## sela

I liked the old system -- you know -- the one where you put a book up for sale and people buy it or not. End of story. 

New author needing visibility? Price at 99c or run a free promo for the first in your series. 

However, I am not king of the world. Amazon will keep or end KU depending on whether it serves their goals, whatever they are. All we can do is play the game as best we can based on our own goals.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Committed Scribe said:


> There's an easy solution to that problem Amanda. One book should have only one title. Amazon shouldn't allow twenty bonus titles with one short story. Just this one rule will get rid of most of the garbage from KU.


I have no problem with that and believe that will become the rule sooner rather than later. However, other people have issues with that. Some people will merely get rid of title pages and say the "book" is one long story even though it's one story and bonus books. It will happen. That's also not the rule now so people will abuse the system.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## TellNotShow

Or, instead of us wasting all our time here making proposals of what Amazon should do to stop this scam and that scam and the other, neverending new scams that KU makes sure will continue to grow like weeds, we should stay the diddleslide out of KU and live in the part of the world we enjoy.
Like this world:



sela said:


> I liked the old system -- you know -- the one where you put a book up for sale and people buy it or not. End of story.
> 
> New author needing visibility? Price at 99c or run a free promo for the first in your series.


I like that world. I don't even use 99 cents. I have a long-running series where, apart from the permafree starter, no book has ever sold for less than $2.99. Ever. On any retailer. When it runs out of readers, I'll have made close enough to $2 a copy for all of them, and it's already been more money than I ever imagined I could make writing books.

And yes, I know, many of you enjoy the KU world, because you were making nothing before it, and something now. But what you don't know, can't know, is that you may have been about to break through anyway. Anyway - give away your power if you want, but in my unwanted opinion, you'd be better off believing you succeeded because of your work, not because KU did it for you.

Without KU, none of these scams would exist. For a company that's done as many smart things as it has, this one seems really stupid. Then again, maybe they just enjoy paying whatever they feel like paying, a completely unknown and unregulated percentage - snake in the henhouse or what?

We churn this over and over, and try to think up ways we can get Amazon to fix it, and the prevailing belief seems to be that This Is As Bad As It'll Get, and They'll Fix It Somehow. 
But what many fail to grasp is that they don't want to fix it - this is their plan, it's going swimmingly, and this is just one more dip in earnings along the way, just the latest in a long line of adjustments where Amazon lower the percentage they pay us, and that it will continue to drop.
Author/publishers have been indignantly jumping up and down blaming "scammers" for everything, but seriously, it's not as if Amazon couldn't fix it if they wanted to.

Is there a bigger scam than one where a massive corporation tells its suppliers it will no longer state what percentage they're charging to be the retailer for their books, and will decide at the end of each month how much to pay, and have implemented various systems that make it impossible for the suppliers to get paid their fair share, even of that?
I'm yet to see one. Oh wait - oh yeah, this one.

Between Amazon manipulating their algorithms to make all outside advertising effective, and manipulating the bestseller and poplists in such a way that only their own books or books with paid Amazon ads have visibility, it's only going to get worse there.

So... no, my words won't be good enough. But actually, this is one of those Smarter Than Me people I've done well by listening to, and she says it better than i could:


sela said:


> However, I am not king of the world. Amazon will keep or end KU depending on whether it serves their goals, whatever they are. All we can do is play the game as best we can based on our own goals.


----------



## KelliWolfe

TellNotShow said:


> And yes, I know, many of you enjoy the KU world, because you were making nothing before it, and something now. But what you don't know, can't know, is that you may have been about to break through anyway. Anyway - give away your power if you want, but in my unwanted opinion, you'd be better off believing you succeeded because of your work, not because KU did it for you.


Or some of us may know quite well how wide works and have given it an honest shot for an extended period, but still gotten nothing out of it. And yes, while we *might* break out tomorrow, we also might never break out. There are no certainties in this business, but that doesn't mean that we just have to sit around waiting for the Breakout Fairy to sprinkle us with sales dust. If one approach doesn't work, you try something else. If wide is going nowhere, you don't lose much by giving KU a try.


----------



## katrina46

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I can't decide how I feel about people "checking" the books. Gatekeepers make me nervous (for obvious reasons). Sure, at first it will be easy to weed out some of the scammers. What happens when that's done, though? Who gets to decide what's quality and what's not? Whenever you're dealing with humans there is some degree of personal preference going into the process. I seem to remember there was one checker who no one wanted getting a gander at their erotica titles at one time because he was more often to block them when others would let them pass. So, was there something wrong with those titles or was this guy just a prude? When you extrapolate that to other genres, who gets to decide what's a good book and what's a scam book? To me that opens a worrisome can of worms.
> All that being said, I think there should be a human checking things. Some of this stuff ... like the same paragraph repeated over and over, the link scam at the beginning of books, padded titles with eight bonus books, etc. Those should all be eliminated.
> A flat fee for books does not fix the first KU problem. Amazon wanted subscribers but people were mostly shoving short things into KU to trigger as many payouts as possible and subscribers were dropping out of KU because they wanted novels. Amazon tried to point authors to what readers wanted, authors didn't listen, and that's why you got KU2. Amazon feels the need to incentivize longer reads because that's what more readers (notice I didn't say all) tend to want and they have to shape the ecosystem in a certain manner to keep those subscribers. If you do a base pay and then prorate on the length of the book, all you're going to get is people stuffing more and more books in the titles. If you do a base pay and then prorate based on the price of the book, all of the scammers will move their books up to the max $9.99. There's no program that's scam proof.


That would be Carlos F and he's a very good example. He's why erotica writers wouldn't publish on the weekends for so long. It didn't always take a lot to offend him. He blocked one of mine years ago and I never could figure out why. So yeah, you're running a risk when you have a human deciding. Bonus stories aren't always scams. I do serials that aren't even in KU. I do permafrees and put the first installment of the next serial in the back so they can read it if they want. It's very effective marketing to get them hooked on the next serial before they even leave the first one. No erotica reader ever felt scammed at getting an extra free short, so I wouldn't want to get dinged by a reviewer who just takes a look and decides that looks fishy to them.


----------



## ......~......

TellNotShow said:


> Anyway - give away your power if you want, but in my unwanted opinion, you'd be better off believing you succeeded because of your work, not because KU did it for you.


 

KU doesn't write my books for me or do my covers last time I checked. I don't think they even promote my books for me!


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## 555aaa

sela said:


> I liked the old system -- you know -- the one where you put a book up for sale and people buy it or not. End of story.


Me too, but I don't see any sign of KU going away at all and I could see the opposite - that if you use KDP, you can only use KU, or maybe you have to use KU in a manner analogous to Audible. They could mandate that your books can be bought either a la carte or via subscription and then modulate your royalties, for both page reads and a la carte sales, based on if you are exclusive or not.


----------



## Atunah

For that that might be wondering about the longevity of KU, Amazon has put prepaid subscriptions on Cyber Monday sale again. One can get a up to 2 year plan pre-paid and save some money. Looks like they feel pretty good about it if they are still doing that. I am still on a 2 year plan I got a year and a half ago on prime day. It runs out in July. 

There are 6 month, 1 year and 2 year plans. And they can be gifted. Right along with the on sale kindle readers for the holidays.


----------



## TellNotShow

Atunah said:


> For that that might be wondering about the longevity of KU, Amazon has put prepaid subscriptions on Cyber Monday sale again. One can get a up to 2 year plan pre-paid and save some money. Looks like they feel pretty good about it if they are still doing that. I am still on a 2 year plan I got a year and a half ago on prime day. It runs out in July.
> 
> There are 6 month, 1 year and 2 year plans. And they can be gifted. Right along with the on sale kindle readers for the holidays.


You'd feel good too if you could tell suppliers you'd pay them however much you feel like paying after the fact, and never have to tell them what percentage you're giving them.

Anyone that thinks KU is going away, or that Amazon has any interest in making it more transparent to us, or even "fixing" what we see as broken, is delusional. They don't care - because they have found a way of collecting the money for books, then paying out only a small percentage of that money to the suppliers. That's all that matters to them. They're completely happy the way things are. It's the best possible deal FOR THEM. And they'll continue to adjust the percentage in their own favour, boiling the frog as the months and years pass.


----------



## sela

TellNotShow said:


> You'd feel good too if you could tell suppliers you'd pay them however much you feel like paying after the fact, and never have to tell them what percentage you're giving them.
> 
> Anyone that thinks KU is going away, or that Amazon has any interest in making it more transparent to us, or even "fixing" what we see as broken, is delusional. They don't care - because they have found a way of collecting the money for books, then paying out only a small percentage of that money to the suppliers. That's all that matters to them. They're completely happy the way things are. It's the best possible deal FOR THEM. And they'll continue to adjust the percentage in their own favour, boiling the frog as the months and years pass.


Amazon could tell via its access to "big data" that many many people buy ebooks and open but don't read them, or never read them at all. It saw that as a margin they could exploit. Instead of paying the author the full share of the sale price, (35% or 70%) they would only pay the author for actual pages read. The rationalization for this scheme was that this would reward good books and encourage authors to write good books. But the much-celebrated _The Goldfinch_ by Donna Tartt was bought by very many and ready by very few. Yet, her publishers still got every penny owing to them.

KU short-circuits this and only pays for pages read -- if that.

While it's true that an eBook isn't really "owned" the same way that a physical book is, it is still -- or was until KU -- a market transaction between buyer and seller with Amazon as the middle man. Now, it's a transaction between Amazon and Authors. Amazon pays us for what portion of our books its customers read. That's a whole different kettle of fish -- and a whole different power dynamic.


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## KelliWolfe

Absolutely right. In the Amazon store, our customer is the reader. In KU, our customer is _Amazon_.


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## GoneToWriterSanctum

My plan is simple: I write the story, and I put it up for sale. 

Period. 

The only place that one of my stories can be borrowed is Scribd, and when they stop paying full royalty for stories, I'll "undistribute" there.


----------



## David VanDyke

T. M. Bilderback said:


> My plan is simple: I write the story, and I put it up for sale.
> 
> Period.
> 
> The only place that one of my stories can be borrowed is Scribd, and when they stop paying full royalty for stories, I'll "undistribute" there.


That's fine, if you put principle above profit. But for the Ferrengi among us, it's sometimes better to accept getting cheated on a larger percentage if the pool is big enough to make the end result favorable. These are digital goods, after all, and there is no "loss" in the same way there would be if physical good were being shoplifted or if the consignee were not paying properly.

It's really not all that different from what trade publishers have been doing for years on the back end i.e., royalties after the advance earns out. They nearly always cheat the author, and if not, they pay 6 months to 2 years late, after using all this money as an interest-free business loan.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## darkline

The KU helped my latest pen name to be discovered. I'm at the point when I don't need KU, but I'm staying in KU because my readers want it. Maybe I'll earn more going wide, but I'm content with my current situation. I haven't had a new release in half a year, but thanks to KU reads, all my books are in 10,000-20,000 in Kindle Store and I make a steady income in the $2000-3000 range without any promo or new releases.

However, my new series won't be in KU. We shall see what's more successful in the long run.


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## 75845

TwistedTales said:


> When Amazon introduced "page flip" they redefined the meaning of a "page read". Yes, according to their contract they may define the term however they please, but what's next?


No you cannot define a page read as being deliberately not recording a page read. The public admission of page flip's deliberate non counting of pages was the basis for my breach of contract get out from KU early. They get to define how page length is calculated, they do not get to choose not to count pages.


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## notjohn

T. M. Bilderback said:


> My plan is simple: I write the story, and I put it up for sale.
> 
> Period.
> 
> The only place that one of my stories can be borrowed is Scribd, and when they stop paying full royalty for stories, I'll "undistribute" there.


Gotta love those two- and three-dollar payments from Scribd! I have a $4.95 book on Draft2Digital that, when I tried it for three months on KU, proved to be valued at 70 cents. (Not the royalty! The value of the book as calculated with a 60 percent royalty. i was getting 42 cents for a 100% read.)


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## Committed Scribe

KelliWolfe said:


> Or some of us may know quite well how wide works and have given it an honest shot for an extended period, but still gotten nothing out of it. And yes, while we *might* break out tomorrow, we also might never break out. There are no certainties in this business, but that doesn't mean that we just have to sit around waiting for the Breakout Fairy to sprinkle us with sales dust. If one approach doesn't work, you try something else. If wide is going nowhere, you don't lose much by giving KU a try.


Kelli Wolfe, I saw you have a bunch of titles on Google Play. Most of them have positive reviews. Aren't they selling well enough to kiss KU goodbye? Asking because am still trying to decide whether to go wide or remain with KU. My book genres closely resemble yours..at least what I saw on GPlay. If wide is not working for you, I might as well give it a pass.

Thanks


----------



## KelliWolfe

Committed Scribe said:


> Kelli Wolfe, I saw you have a bunch of titles on Google Play. Most of them have positive reviews. Aren't they selling well enough to kiss KU goodbye? Asking because am still trying to decide whether to go wide or remain with KU. My book genres closely resemble yours..at least what I saw on GPlay. If wide is not working for you, I might as well give it a pass.
> 
> Thanks


My Kelli Wolfe catalog is doing well enough that I am leaving it wide. I've had portions of it in KU in the past, but it has never made as much money in Select as it makes wide. With my Olivia Blake catalog, which is romance rather than erotica, 80% of my income was coming from Amazon. And the percentage coming from the other distributors was slowly shrinking, despite the addition of new titles. By going into KU, the most I'm putting at risk is that 20%, and I ought to make up for at least some of the sales losses on the other channels.

Since my page read graph right now looks like the launch trajectory for the space shuttle, I'm going to be cautiously optimistic that the worst case scenario probably isn't going to happen. I've already blown past my previous record for page reads in a day, and my books have only been in KU for 3 full business days. Even if my page reads level off where they were that very first day they were all in, I'd still make more from KU than I would have made staying wide.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

notjohn said:


> Gotta love those two- and three-dollar payments from Scribd! I have a $4.95 book on Draft2Digital that, when I tried it for three months on KU, proved to be valued at 70 cents. (Not the royalty! The value of the book as calculated with a 60 percent royalty. i was getting 42 cents for a 100% read.)


Scribd kicked out 3/4 of my catalog because they are romance. Another reason I went back to KU.


----------



## David VanDyke

TwistedTales said:


> Really? You think it's ok to be cheated? Do you think it's ok to cheat others as well?
> 
> The problem with lowering your own ethics, or accepting lower ethics from others, is there's no limit to how low they go.
> 
> When Amazon introduced "page flip" they redefined the meaning of a "page read". Yes, according to their contract they may define the term however they please, but what's next?
> 
> Half of my books are out of KU now and my sales are climbing, comfortably replacing the loss of KU page reads. Once I have them all out and can load them to iBooks and Google then I'll start the full advertising campaigns for all platforms. That should give me a sales kick across the board.
> 
> I've always been "all in" from the start and now I'm wondering if I was sold a pup. I'm a straight up marketer, by that I mean I believe in advertising. I never did use whatever the latest "workaround" or "quirk" is in the KU and Amazon model. I don't shy away from the cost of advertising. I build it into my expense line and price and package product to fit with the costs.
> 
> Advertising works. That's why every business does it. I'm not sure being out of KU is going to be such a bad thing, at least not for me.


You're quoting me out of context and straw-manning the quote.

The contrast was between refusing to participate in KU because it might be cheating you out of some page reads, vs. participating in KU despite that fact, if by participating, you make more money.

The analogy is to the trade pubs before digital, wherin the choice was to vanity publish, or to seek a publisher despite the odds of being cheated, if by getting published you made more money.

Nobody likes the idea that the system is rigged. But if the choice is to write and make a living, or to write and not make a living, I'll take the living, even if Amazon is rigging the system.

If, of course, you can do as well or better by leaving KU behind, more power to you.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

KU pages-read problems are still in effect, it seems. But first consider this:

    Christmas is coming, the geese are getting fat;
    Please do put a penny in the old man's hat.
    If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do;
    If you haven't got a ha'penny, then God bless you! 

Because today I got the notorious 1-page read _without_ the ratings bump, indicating that a previously-downloaded copy of my major work has been read, to the tune of 1 KENPC.  Given that it's a collection of short stories, with two forewords at the front, this 1-page read being in any way legitimate is highly unlikely.

Of course, now I have my ha'penny!


----------



## doolittle03

I had a 2 page read this month on a book that left KU at the beginning of this year. Best guess is the reader started at Chapter One, read the book and returned to the the Author's Note when they reached the end and then exited the book. That's 2 pages. But at least in my new world view, the book was probably read. Silver linings!

I just learned the India market is tax-holding 10 percent (I believe that's the amount) so there goes another 44 cents I'll never see.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

doolittle03 said:


> I had a 2 page read this month on a book that left KU at the beginning of this year. Best guess is the reader started at Chapter One, read the book and returned to the the Author's Note when they reached the end and then exited the book. That's 2 pages. But at least in my new world view, the book was probably read. Silver linings!
> 
> I just learned the India market is tax-holding 10 percent (I believe that's the amount) so there goes another 44 cents I'll never see.


Amazon for some reason has contracted _Singapore_ to do the Indian market. _They're_ the ones withholding the 10%. How that's going to wash out in the end is anyone's guess. You can now, I think, go to your Bookshelf and exclude the Indian market from worldwide distribution if you think it's no longer worthwhile.

Here's a link to the details of the arrangement:

https://kdp.amazon.com/community/ann.jspa?annID=1101

On the other hand, if you leave the Indian market ON and take Singapore OFF, wouldn't the withholding then be technically illegal? Of course this is all academic.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Amazon for some reason has contracted _Singapore_ to do the Indian market. _They're_ the ones withholding the 10%. How that's going to wash out in the end is anyone's guess. You can now, I think, go to your Bookshelf and exclude the Indian market from worldwide distribution if you think it's no longer worthwhile.
> 
> Here's a link to the details of the arrangement:
> 
> https://kdp.amazon.com/community/ann.jspa?annID=1101
> 
> On the other hand, if you leave the Indian market ON and take Singapore OFF, wouldn't the withholding then be technically illegal? Of course this is all academic.


WTF? So ... we get taxed twice? Once for India/Singapore, AND in our home countries?


----------



## 75845

Lots of non-US authors are charged 30% withholding tax by the US. Not however the the Singapore message on the KDP forum does not appear in the Announcements side bar. Make of that what you will.


----------



## TellNotShow

SevenDays said:


> WTF? So ... we get taxed twice? Once for India/Singapore, AND in our home countries?


Welcome to our world - and by "our" I mean most people from countries that aren't the US or the UK.

You're up in arms over being taxed extra on your INDIA sales? Try having 5% of your US SALES taxed by the IRS before your own country has a go, as happens to Australians. And us Aussies are LUCKY compared to many, who are losing the full 30% because their countries have no tax treaty at all with the US. It's just how it is - no complaints, it's simply a cost of doing business. (Although, incidentally, the other retailers don't seem to do it, presumably because they've set themselves up to do business and pay their taxes in other countries. No further comment from me about that. Although, I sometimes wonder if us foreign indies actually pay more taxes to the IRS than Amazon do on their whole business earnings - it would be an interesting comparison.)

It doesn't just end with that 30% being taken - everyone THEN gets taxed by their own country.
For me, even that 5% is quite a lot of money - for those losing 30% it must be horrendous.

Also, at one point Amazon was taking MORE than that 5% from my US sales, around 7% some months, and different amounts from the sales of other countries, in a seemingly random fashion. Sometimes the correct amount, many times not. Small differences here and there.
I hadn't checked on it for several months, because, you know, there's laws and stuff about that - and because of those laws, I had an expectation that Amazon would pay me correctly. (does this remind you of anything?)

When I wrote to KDP about it, they did their usual, Thanks for your blabla, and continually shirked their responsibility, hoping I'd just go away. In the end, because I kept asking for what they owed me (from memory, it cost me around USD400) they told me it was nothing to do with them, and that I'd have to take it up with the IRS. Then they never answered my emails about it again, no matter what I said.
Do we REALLY believe Amazon ACCIDENTALLY made a mistake? And that they actually paid MY MONEY to the IRS? And that it's not THEIR responsibility?
It hasn't happened since, and that was well over a year ago. Must have been an easy fix...

Check everything, people. 
I'd suggest we rename Amazon the Nickel And Dime Stealers, except the acronym would be NADS, and... never mind.

Actually, the thing that really gets me about the Singapore thing, is that they're running a poorer country's sales through a rich country, and either making things more expensive for the readers in India, or paying us less - because you can bet that whyever they're doing it, it's putting a higher percentage of the money in Amazon's coffers.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Maybe Amazon is just pulling a Harlequin.


----------



## TellNotShow

KelliWolfe said:


> Maybe Amazon is just pulling a Harlequin.


There was something about their wording that made me think the very same thing.


----------



## David VanDyke

TwistedTales said:


> I'm not misquoting you. You repeated your position that it's ok if someone chats providing overall you come out ahead.


Yes, you are misquoting me. You are making up words I never said. I have to wonder why you are fabricating something I never said. You are apparently more concerned about creating a straw man and demolishing it, than actually discussing things honestly.

Here is what I said, copied and pasted from above: "It's sometimes better to accept getting cheated on a larger percentage if the pool is big enough to make the end result favorable."

In no way, except in your own mistaken mind, does that mean "it's ok if someone ch(e)ats" (your exact quote). It means exactly what it says: "It's sometimes better to accept getting cheated on a larger percentage if the pool is big enough to make the end result favorable."

In fact, most people do this every day, though they hate to admit it. When they buy from a store like Wal-Mart that compensates for shoplifting within its prices, they are, in effect, accepting the reality of cheating. But they buy from Wal-Mart anyway, rather than from a more secure store, because it's advantageous. If they stood on principle, they would make sure to shop only in stores with strong anti-shoplifting measures.

In the same way, anyone with an Apple product accepts the fact that Apple has been implicated many, many times in oppressing workers in its Asian factories and doing business with bad actors, including the Chinese PLA, which runs labor camps for political prisoners.

None of these things are "okay." Recognizing and accepting the fact (though not the rightness) that Amazon is not being honest with authors is, however, an individual decision that each of us must make.

As I said, if you don't want to stay in KU and you can make more money elsewhere, more power to you. But quit playing PC-puritan finger-shaker at those who do. It's not a moral issue. Nobody's being enslaved. Everyone has the choice of deal or no deal. The deal may suck, and Amazon may suck, but at the end of the day, barring some REAL moral issue like sweatshops or labor camps making your fancy iPhones, it's a personal choice.


----------



## H.C.

David VanDyke said:


> Yes, you are misquoting me. You are making up words I never said. I have to wonder why you are fabricating something I never said. You are apparently more concerned about creating a straw man and demolishing it, than actually discussing things honestly.
> 
> Here is what I said, copied and pasted from above: "It's sometimes better to accept getting cheated on a larger percentage if the pool is big enough to make the end result favorable."
> 
> In no way, except in your own mistaken mind, does that mean "it's ok if someone ch(e)ats" (your exact quote). It means exactly what it says: "It's sometimes better to accept getting cheated on a larger percentage if the pool is big enough to make the end result favorable."
> 
> In fact, most people do this every day, though they hate to admit it. When they buy from a store like Wal-Mart that compensates for shoplifting within its prices, they are, in effect, accepting the reality of cheating. But they buy from Wal-Mart anyway, rather than from a more secure store, because it's advantageous. If they stood on principle, they would make sure to shop only in stores with strong anti-shoplifting measures.
> 
> In the same way, anyone with an Apple product accepts the fact that Apple has been implicated many, many times in oppressing workers in its Asian factories and doing business with bad actors, including the Chinese PLA, which runs labor camps for political prisoners.
> 
> None of these things are "okay." Recognizing and accepting the fact (though not the rightness) that Amazon is not being honest with authors is, however, an individual decision that each of us must make.
> 
> As I said, if you don't want to stay in KU and you can make more money elsewhere, more power to you. But quit playing PC-puritan finger-shaker at those who do. It's not a moral issue. Nobody's being enslaved. Everyone has the choice of deal or no deal. The deal may suck, and Amazon may suck, but at the end of the day, barring some REAL moral issue like sweatshops or labor camps making your fancy iPhones, it's a personal choice.


As someone who lives in China and resides not far from Ipad factories I can tell you some of the politically motivated comments in this response are fabrications. Likely based on watching too much cable news.


----------



## David VanDyke

TwistedTales said:


> I'm not going to pick apart your analogies because they're not the same thing at all. Suffice to say we don't share the same values. The only organization I am shaking my finger at is Amazon. Their behavour has not been acceptable. I won't bother citing the long list of bullying, misleading and cheating they have done to many authors to date. If you're "okay" with it then that's up to you, just as it's my choice to decide what behavour I'll accept.


Again, I never said it was okay to be cheated. I challenge you to show me where I said it was okay to be cheated. You repeating your words, not mine, will never somehow change the fact that I never said that.

You are disagreeing with something I never said, and you are ascribing values to me I do not hold.

Having pointed this out twice now, if you continue to claim I said cheating was okay, I'd say your claims will be crossing the line from misrepresentation to outright lying.


----------



## David VanDyke

TwistedTales said:


> You stated, "sometimes it's better to accept being cheated on a larger percentage if the pool is big enough to make the end result favorable"
> 
> That's where we're coming unstuck. To me, it's the *"sometimes it's better to accept being cheated..."* My interpretation is you're saying you "accept" cheating (yes, I use the term "okay" to mean the same as "acceptable").


Precisely. You have chosen--not unintentionally, but intentionally--to interpret my words in a twisted way that I have repeatedly denied meaning.

In other words, I've explained quite clearly what I mean and what I meant meant, yet you still keep falsely claiming I meant something else.

Here are different examples of the same principle:

If a police officer accepts being punched in order to tackle a criminal, that in no way condones the criminal assault on the police officer. It's simply an acceptance of the personal and professional cost of getting the job done. Standing on principle in this case is rather like the police officer refusing to do the job because of the risk of getting assaulted.

If a shop owner accepts shoplifting as the price of doing business and chooses to stay in business, s/he in no way is condoning the shoplifting. S/he may well do all in his or her power to stop the shoplifting, but staying in business still involves accepting the fact that he or she will never be able to stop all the shoplifting.

It's embodied in the Serenity Prayer: to change the things you can, to accept the things you can't change (and it certainly seems like we can't change Amazon's possibly cheating us) and the wisdom to know the difference.


----------



## Becca Mills

David VanDyke said:


> Having pointed this out twice now, if you continue to claim I said cheating was okay, I'd say your claims will be crossing the line from misrepresentation to outright lying.





TwistedTales said:


> I have to go so I can't continue this war of words. Good luck to you (& I mean that because my frustration is with Amazon and not you).


Let's put the wrap on this issue, okay? The source of the disagreement seems to me to revolve around the question of whether participation in a tainted system, even in the role of victim, necessarily represents an endorsement of that system, and I suspect that question's well into the knotty-moral-quandaries-about-which-good-people-disagree category.

So ... how 'bout them Bears?!


----------



## RedAlert

It IS a quandry.  Whether to play the only game in town and be cheated, or stay clear and make far, far less for far more work.  I change my mind almost daily.  Amazon has a lot to offer in terms of convenience (and, I do shop at Walmart, and will not apologize for it.)  But the idea of trying so hard for so long and then getting paid .05 or less, well, that s*cks.  The lack of transparency or simple courtesy as to what is paid and how it's derived also s*cks the whazzoo.

I am almost coming to terms with just writing for myself, and putting it out there for perhaps a few to enjoy.  To me, in my mind, KU3 came along, and Zon showed such disrespect that they couldn't even tell authors the new plan.  It's gone on too long for it to be a glitch, a programming error, or whatever.  It reminds me of 9 to 5 where Lily Tomlin's line is "...and a little respect!"  Or, Oliver's "Please, Sir!  Can I have some more?"  You don't treat people like this.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

TellNotShow said:


> Welcome to our world - and by "our" I mean most people from countries that aren't the US or the UK.
> 
> You're up in arms over being taxed extra on your INDIA sales? Try having 5% of your US SALES taxed by the IRS before your own country has a go, as happens to Australians. And us Aussies are LUCKY compared to many, who are losing the full 30% because their countries have no tax treaty at all with the US. It's just how it is - no complaints, it's simply a cost of doing business. (Although, incidentally, the other retailers don't seem to do it, presumably because they've set themselves up to do business and pay their taxes in other countries. No further comment from me about that. Although, I sometimes wonder if us foreign indies actually pay more taxes to the IRS than Amazon do on their whole business earnings - it would be an interesting comparison.)
> 
> It doesn't just end with that 30% being taken - everyone THEN gets taxed by their own country.
> For me, even that 5% is quite a lot of money - for those losing 30% it must be horrendous.
> 
> Also, at one point Amazon was taking MORE than that 5% from my US sales, around 7% some months, and different amounts from the sales of other countries, in a seemingly random fashion. Sometimes the correct amount, many times not. Small differences here and there.
> I hadn't checked on it for several months, because, you know, there's laws and stuff about that - and because of those laws, I had an expectation that Amazon would pay me correctly. (does this remind you of anything?)
> 
> When I wrote to KDP about it, they did their usual, Thanks for your blabla, and continually shirked their responsibility, hoping I'd just go away. In the end, because I kept asking for what they owed me (from memory, it cost me around USD400) they told me it was nothing to do with them, and that I'd have to take it up with the IRS. Then they never answered my emails about it again, no matter what I said.
> Do we REALLY believe Amazon ACCIDENTALLY made a mistake? And that they actually paid MY MONEY to the IRS? And that it's not THEIR responsibility?
> It hasn't happened since, and that was well over a year ago. Must have been an easy fix...
> 
> Check everything, people.
> I'd suggest we rename Amazon the Nickel And Dime Stealers, except the acronym would be NADS, and... never mind.
> 
> Actually, the thing that really gets me about the Singapore thing, is that they're running a poorer country's sales through a rich country, and either making things more expensive for the readers in India, or paying us less - because you can bet that whyever they're doing it, it's putting a higher percentage of the money in Amazon's coffers.


Way to overreact to what I said. I'm just surprised that we're--any of us--being double taxed. I thought that's why folks overseas put in their tax information, so they wouldn't be subject to US taxes. I didn't realize all it got you guys was a reduced rate.


----------



## sela

David VanDyke said:


> Again, I never said it was okay to be cheated. I challenge you to show me where I said it was okay to be cheated. You repeating your words, not mine, will never somehow change the fact that I never said that.
> 
> You are disagreeing with something I never said, and you are ascribing values to me I do not hold.
> 
> Having pointed this out twice now, if you continue to claim I said cheating was okay, I'd say your claims will be crossing the line from misrepresentation to outright lying.


David, I understand completely what you meant. It's an imperfect system. It's unfair, but it's 80% of the eBook market. Participating in it does not mean we condone injustice or unfair business practices. It simply means there is no other game in town if you want to put food on the table and for many of us, this is our bread and butter.

My country has serious flaws and a tainted history of abuse of ethnic minorities, but I still live here. By living here, I don't approve of what the government did or does that I disagree with, but this is my home. It is one of the better nations in which to live. That doesn't mean I support wrong doing or think it's fine to abuse and treat minorities unfairly, and I do try to influence the government to stop, but I still have to live.

Same goes for using Amazon as a retailer. If you hope to have a career as an indie author, it's pretty much a necessity. We complain all the time about the negatives and share info when we think there is something wrong, but we have little choice about using Amazon if we hope to keep earning a living writing books.

In the end, it's a decision that each of us has to make. It is not a choice that has no personal consequences so there are big stakes involved. We each have to live with our own choices. Better to focus on our own choices and not start accusing each other of condoning injustice or claiming that by participating on Amazon we think cheating is a good or acceptable practice.

That's just not true.


----------



## notjohn

SevenDays said:


> Way to overreact to what I said. I'm just surprised that we're--any of us--being double taxed. I thought that's why folks overseas put in their tax information, so they wouldn't be subject to US taxes. I didn't realize all it got you guys was a reduced rate.


Australia's withholding tax on royalties is also 30 percent for countries without a mutual tax treaty.

France's is 33.3 - 75 percent, EU nations excluded.

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/global/Documents/Tax/dttl-tax-withholding-tax-rates.pdf


----------



## TellNotShow

SevenDays said:


> Way to overreact to what I said.


Oh my, Seven Days, I'm so TERRIBLY SORRY, overreacting as I did to what you said.

From now on I'll be careful not to say what I think.

Or to share any information I know about a subject that's being discussed.

Or to share anything else that I think is important, for example, the bit where I warned people to check Amazon's figures re sales tax, as they ripped me off blind for several months then refused to make good on what they owed me.

But please, feel free to explain to me what an appropriate reaction is. Seriously. I didn't even disagree with anything you said. All I did was share some related information, and add a related warning.

I'm very capable of overreacting, but that wasn't it. Actually, if you thought it was, you'll think this is too, I suppose. I give up.


----------



## David VanDyke

sela said:


> David, I understand completely what you meant. It's an imperfect system. It's unfair, but it's 80% of the eBook market. Participating in it does not mean we condone injustice or unfair business practices. It simply means there is no other game in town if you want to put food on the table and for many of us, this is our bread and butter.
> 
> My country has serious flaws and a tainted history of abuse of ethnic minorities, but I still live here. By living here, I don't approve of what the government did or does that I disagree with, but this is my home. It is one of the better nations in which to live. That doesn't mean I support wrong doing or think it's fine to abuse and treat minorities unfairly, and I do try to influence the government to stop, but I still have to live.
> 
> Same goes for using Amazon as a retailer. If you hope to have a career as an indie author, it's pretty much a necessity. We complain all the time about the negatives and share info when we think there is something wrong, but we have little choice about using Amazon if we hope to keep earning a living writing books.
> 
> In the end, it's a decision that each of us has to make. It is not a choice that has no personal consequences so there are big stakes involved. We each have to live with our own choices. Better to focus on our own choices and not start accusing each other of condoning injustice or claiming that by participating on Amazon we think cheating is a good or acceptable practice.
> 
> That's just not true.


This.


----------



## David VanDyke

By the way, on the topic of taxation or double-taxation, the US withholding is just that, withholding, right? Can't everyone recover what is withheld by filing the correct paperwork?


----------



## anotherpage

I can't believe this thread is still going. Shut it down OP. There is no issue.


----------



## anotherpage

David VanDyke said:


> By the way, on the topic of taxation or double-taxation, the US withholding is just that, withholding, right? Can't everyone recover what is withheld by filing the correct paperwork?


Yes. You just have to give them the paperwork and they put you at 0%


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

lostones said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going. Shut it down OP. There is no issue.


The thread may have gotten a bit creaky and may have wandered from time to time, but the KU pages-read issues (at least the Page Flip and Exit Point issues) are still there.

Edit: I personally think the Exit Point issue is the main killer.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

lostones said:


> Yes. You just have to give them the paperwork and they put you at 0%





David VanDyke said:


> By the way, on the topic of taxation or double-taxation, the US withholding is just that, withholding, right? Can't everyone recover what is withheld by filing the correct paperwork?


But only if you're in a country that has a tax treaty with the US.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> But only if you're in a country that has a tax treaty with the US.


Not my area of expertise, but I think even if you're in a country with which the US does not have that particular treaty provision, you can probably still recover the withholding by filing a return to the IRS. . . I think it would be a 1040NR and it would have to be filed yearly to recover any withholding. ****But don't quote me on that; as I said: not my area of expertise!  ****

Depending on the amount of tax, it may or may not be worth it to bother. Especially if you need to pay someone to do the paperwork for you. When it becomes worth it is going to depend on the person. A couple hundred dollars probably usually won't be. But a couple thousand may be. For those in this situation it's probably at least worth researching it so you'll know when it becomes worth it to file the forms.


----------



## AuthorX

lostones said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going. Shut it down OP. There is no issue.


I can say with near certainty that there is an issue. I don't know if it's a technical error, Amazon is calculating things differently or there is a sudden mass-exodus from KU, but something is wrong.

I have been in KU since the beginning and every book I've released has been in KU. My mailing list of 4000 are most likely predominantly KU subscribers. And I'm in contemporary romance, which has a massive KU base.

With that said, every time I release a book and do an email blast to my list, there is generally a surge in page reads that coincide with a surge of sales. The surge in page reads is generally much higher than that of sales.

I just had a release 4 days ago and did an email blast. My sales spiked 500%, while my page reads remained flat. The book has nothing but 5 star reviews. How am I supposed to believe that suddenly, for some mysterious reason, people want to buy my new releases, but KU subscribers just aren't interested? I gave plenty of time to make sure there was not delayed reporting or something.

As a test, I checked out my own book via KU and flipped through every page very slowly before notifying anyone of the release. First day registered 1 page read for the book, when I was almost certainly the first person to check my book out and most certainly did a full read through. Since then I have had another day with only 1 page read while sales have remained high. How is that _not _an issue?

We're giving Amazon a LOT of our trust by handing them exclusive rights to our content, and if something is not working we are missing out on income that we could be getting at other vendors. Amazon should have engineers working day and night to figure out what the issue is, even if it is only affecting a small % of us. And if there is no technical problem, they should let us know what exactly they changed so we can set new expectations and decide if we want to stay exclusive with the new KU.


----------



## Guest

lostones said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going. Shut it down OP. There is no issue.


You don't work for Amazon by any chance do you?


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Andrew Murray said:


> You don't work for Amazon by any chance do you?


Actually the first thought that came to my mind. I avoided posting it as I didn't care to be modded. 

I really do not understand Amazon's reluctance to fix the problems. Whether Amazon fixes the problems or not, they are out the same amount of money--the monthly KU distribution pool. And, any kind of decent fix would not affect the customers--the readers--in any way; they wouldn't even be aware of any fix.

It's just bewildering.


----------



## KelliWolfe

You just answered your own question. They're out the same amount of money every month and it doesn't affect the customers, so why would they go to the bother and expense of fixing it (and knowing Amazon, breaking something else even worse in the process)?

So a few disgruntled authors pull their books out of KU and go wide. Well, we've seen that before. Most of them will go 2 or 3 months without seeing any significant sales on the other channels and jump right back into Select. Even if they're bringing in pennies in Select compared to what they were making before, pennies is still better than the nothing that they're making outside of Amazon. And even if they do make money and stay wide, there are plenty of new authors coming into Select every single day to take their place.

So why would Amazon bother fixing something that to them isn't really a problem?


----------



## ......~......

lostones said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going. Shut it down OP. There is no issue.


Amen.

This thread was useful when it started but now it's just going in circles and circles and circles.

_Edited to remove unsolicited feedback on others' work. If you don't find this thread useful, it might be best to focus on those you do. -- Becca_


----------



## David VanDyke

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Actually the first thought that came to my mind. I avoided posting it as I didn't care to be modded.
> 
> I really do not understand Amazon's reluctance to fix the problems. Whether Amazon fixes the problems or not, they are out the same amount of money--the monthly KU distribution pool. And, any kind of decent fix would not affect the customers--the readers--in any way; they wouldn't even be aware of any fix.
> 
> It's just bewildering.


From working in large organizations in my previous life (30 years with the government/military in some form or another) I can tell you that usually, something like this comes down to two things: inertia, plus the individual decision-maker in control of the process, usually some middle manager.

Inertia is what make it hard to change something within an organization, and it usually proceeds from excessively dispersed authority plus fear of doing anything dangerous to one's career. It's almost always safer to do nothing within a bureaucracy, than to do something that would open you up to criticism.

Only a leader/manager can overcome this inertia, by making a decision that involves some risk. Intervening in a process that is working, albeit badly, might fix it, but it also might break it completely. So assuming there's one individual with both the authority and the courage to make the change, s/he still has to overcome organizational inertia, including the possibility of an "abominable no-man," as CN Parkinson calls them, who has the power to stop any reform in its tracks, usually on some obscure legal or technical grounds.

If the individual leader gathers courage enough to attempt to fix the process, and gets past the abominable no-men, there also exists the possibility that a rival will try to block the reform, or even sabotage the effort. This latter is, for example, the reason why I believe (from some interesting insider scuttlebutt) that Kindle Worlds has never fulfilled its promise--it's not actually part of KDP within the Amazon organization, and therefore the two sections, and especially their bosses, are rivals, and do not help one another to succeed, do not mesh well, etc.

(see also: Author Central and Createspace. In a rational world, these four pieces would all be integrated under one leader). Sometimes, things come down to nothing more than two powerful people hate each other and will do anything to ensure their enemies fail--and screw the customer (or the citizenry).

There is also the matter of personality. We seem to expect other people to act rationally, when we have ample evidence that a significant minority act irrationally, or even self-destructively, and they get away with it for a long time before they actually implode or wreck their own organizations. So it's perfectly possible that there is a personality issue at work here and, without intervention at the Bezos level, it will not get fixed. And we really have no idea how Bezos views this, because his staff will filter what reaches his desk or gets briefed in his meetings.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

David VanDyke said:


> From working in large organizations in my previous life (30 years with the government/military in some form or another) I can tell you that usually, something like this comes down to two things: inertia, plus the individual decision-maker in control of the process, usually some middle manager.
> 
> Inertia is what make it hard to change something within an organization, and it usually proceeds from excessively dispersed authority plus fear of doing anything dangerous to one's career. It's almost always safer to do nothing within a bureaucracy, than to do something that would open you up to criticism.
> 
> Only a leader/manager can overcome this inertia, by making a decision that involves some risk. Intervening in a process that is working, albeit badly, might fix it, but it also might break it completely. So assuming there's one individual with both the authority and the courage to make the change, s/he still has to overcome organizational inertia, including the possibility of an "abominable no-man," as CN Parkinson calls them, who has the power to stop any reform in its tracks, usually on some obscure legal or technical grounds.
> 
> If the individual leader gathers courage enough to attempt to fix the process, and gets past the abominable no-men, there also exists the possibility that a rival will try to block the reform, or even sabotage the effort. This latter is, for example, the reason why I believe (from some interesting insider scuttlebutt) that Kindle Worlds has never fulfilled its promise--it's not actually part of KDP within the Amazon organization, and therefore the two sections, and especially their bosses, are rivals, and do not help one another to succeed, do not mesh well, etc.
> 
> (see also: Author Central and Createspace. In a rational world, these four pieces would all be integrated under one leader). Sometimes, things come down to nothing more than two powerful people hate each other and will do anything to ensure their enemies fail--and screw the customer (or the citizenry).
> 
> There is also the matter of personality. We seem to expect other people to act rationally, when we have ample evidence that a significant minority act irrationally, or even self-destructively, and they get away with it for a long time before they actually implode or wreck their own organizations. So it's perfectly possible that there is a personality issue at work here and, without intervention at the Bezos level, it will not get fixed. And we really have no idea how Bezos views this, because his staff will filter what reaches his desk or gets briefed in his meetings.


I've worked in orgs as well, and my penchant for jumping on the conference room table and yelling "bullsh*t!" has cost me a couple of jobs, so I know whereof you speak.

Nevertheless, you're just a bundle of happiness and light today. Stay away from any funeral--you'll gloom it up.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

NeedWant said:


> Amen.
> 
> This thread was useful when it started but now it's just going in circles and circles and circles.


But the low sellers used to be high sellers. If the cover, blurb and writing was selling up to a few months ago and hasn't changed then surely they are not the problem. I've proved that one of my books was read through more than once and the page reads didn't show up (and it was previously published by Penguin). 
We are continuing with the thread because we are hoping that someone, somewhere will come up with an answer 

_Edited to remove portion of quoted post. -- Becca_


----------



## Becca Mills

Andrew, I removed your post because my edit to NeedWant's post left you looking like you were going off on them for no reason.

Folks, it'd be nice to keep this thread open so that we have a central place to report any future developments. So if you're no longer interested in this issue (or never were), please move on to other threads.

Edited to add: LSMay, I've removed your post as well. The material you were reacting to is no longer on the thread.


----------



## anotherpage

Andrew Murray said:


> You don't work for Amazon by any chance do you?


No I don't work for them.

Just irritates me when people keep griping about something when nothing can be done.

If there is a problem, tell amazon and move on.

Rehashing the problem over and over again on this forum isn't going to help.

If Amazon does nothing, either sue them or put your books elsewhere.

If KU has some issue, alert them to it. This thread is going in circles.

if they don't fix it. I'm not sure there is an answer.


----------



## anotherpage

NeedWant said:


> Amen.
> 
> This thread was useful when it started but now it's just going in circles and circles and circles.
> 
> _Edited to remove unsolicited feedback on others' work. If don't find this thread useful, it might be best to focus on those you do._


Exactly. Let's move on to the next Amazon problem. Like.... not paying me $1000,000 a page flip


----------



## Becca Mills

lostones said:


> Exactly. Let's move on to the next Amazon problem. Like.... not paying me $1000,000 a page flip


You know, that just might tempt me back into Select! 

But seriously, assuming it's true there's nothing authors can do to influence Amazon's practices (and I'm not sure that's the case), some folks find it helpful to discuss seemingly insolvable problems and some folks find it helpful to move on and think about other things. Those in the latter group should resist the urge to disparage those in the former. There're plenty of other threads.


----------



## David VanDyke

Becca Mills said:


> You know, that just might tempt me back into Select!
> 
> But seriously, assuming it's true there's nothing authors can do to influence Amazon's practices (and I'm not sure that's the case), some folks find it helpful to discuss seemingly insolvable problems and some folks find it helpful to move on and think about other things. Those in the latter group should resist the urge to disparage those in the former. There're plenty of other threads.


Exactly. It's not like anyone is forced to read this thread. Why come here and tell others what they ought to not be discussing? Just move on to one of the other 100+ active threads that you do get something out of.


----------



## ......~......

NeedWant said:


> _Edited to remove unsolicited feedback on others' work. If you don't find this thread useful, it might be best to focus on those you do. -- Becca_


And that's why this thread is on page 102. If something changes with my sales and pages read, the first place I'd look is my own books, not assume that somehow Amazon is cheating me out of something. I guess some people can't comprehend that something might be off on their end.

(And for the record, the removed portion of my post didn't comment on a specific author's work.)


----------



## Becca Mills

NeedWant said:


> And that's why this thread is on page 102. If something changes with my sales and pages read, the first place I'd look is my own books, not assume that somehow Amazon is cheating me out of something. I guess some people can't comprehend that something might be off on their end.
> 
> (And for the record, the removed portion of my post didn't comment on a specific author's work.)


Other threads, NeedWant. Further posts along these lines will be removed.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

I'll reiterate what Becca has said:  if you don't find this thread useful, move on--lots of other threads.  

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Gertie Kindle

NeedWant said:


> And that's why this thread is on page 102. If something changes with my sales and pages read, the first place I'd look is my own books, not assume that somehow Amazon is cheating me out of something. I guess some people can't comprehend that something might be off on their end.
> 
> (And for the record, the removed portion of my post didn't comment on a specific author's work.)


And maybe there's nothing wrong with the unnamed author's work but he/she is just lousy at marketing. A book doesn't necessarily have to be good to sell. It just has to be a book that people want to read backed up by good marketing ... and a little bit of luck.


----------



## ......~......

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> And maybe there's nothing wrong with the unnamed author's work but he/she is just lousy at marketing. A book doesn't necessarily have to be good to sell. It just has to be a book that people want to read backed up by good marketing ... and a little bit of luck.


That's definitely true. Good books keep readers coming back though.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## KelliWolfe

It must just not be a very good book.  /sarc


----------



## Gertie Kindle

KelliWolfe said:


> It must just not be a very good book. /sarc


Buyable but not "readable."


----------



## TellNotShow

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Buyable but not "readable."


Or perhaps only 22 people finished it, reviewed it, chanted Amazon Amazon Amazon, Bezosbebus, Bezosbebus, Bezosbebus, stood on one leg and turned around three times, anti-clockwise, before lifting their Kindles to the sky and holding them there till they ran out of battery - thereby triggering the last remaining way that Amazon records page reads, so the author/publisher could be paid his half a penny per "read."


----------



## Laran Mithras

New book for me released. Historically speaking, I should see an enormous spike in page reads. Sales are way up, paperbacks are through the roof, reads are still falling, even lower than the day before release.

That leads back to what I've already said: either there's a problem with page reads reporting; or there's a huge drop-off in KU subscribers.

Either way, *that makes KU not worth the bother*. All of my books have been pulled and my new ones not enrolled. Have fun getting ripped for your work in KU.


----------



## Maggie Dana

While I've read all the posts on this thread, I cannot remember if the following has been suggested. If it has, I hope you will forgive my bad memory.

Anyway, has anyone gone into a Kindle readers' forum (like the ones on kboards or even Goodreads) and asked readers (via a survey, perhaps?) if they are using page flip rather than normal view? If we actually got substantial numbers (have no idea what "substantial" would amount to), would Amazon pay attention? Another question to ask might be along the lines of, "Do you ever go back to the beginning of a book once you've finished it?"

I know I do, but I don't have a KU subscription, so I am not messing with author's page reads.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Maggie Dana said:


> While I've read all the posts on this thread, I cannot remember if the following has been suggested. If it has, I hope you will forgive my bad memory.
> 
> Anyway, has anyone gone into a Kindle readers' forum (like the ones on kboards or even Goodreads) and asked readers (via a survey, perhaps?) if they are using page flip rather than normal view? If we actually got substantial numbers (have no idea what "substantial" would amount to), would Amazon pay attention? Another question to ask might be along the lines of, "Do you ever go back to the beginning of a book once you've finished it?"
> 
> I know I do, but I don't have a KU subscription, so I am not messing with author's page reads.


I, too, go back and forth. That's why I dropped my KU subscription. I don't want to lose page reads for other authors.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Perhaps we should change the title of this thread, or start another one titled "*Support group for authors suffering from missing page reads*". This will then only be of interest to those of us who are actually concerned about the missing page reads.


----------



## Guest

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Perhaps we should change the title of this thread, or start another one titled "*Support group for authors suffering from missing page reads*". This will then only be of interest to those of us who are actually concerned about the missing page reads.


Yeah, it's pretty sad to see the people not affected by this bashing those who are affected.


----------



## David VanDyke

Maggie Dana said:


> While I've read all the posts on this thread, I cannot remember if the following has been suggested. If it has, I hope you will forgive my bad memory.
> 
> Anyway, has anyone gone into a Kindle readers' forum (like the ones on kboards or even Goodreads) and asked readers (via a survey, perhaps?) if they are using page flip rather than normal view? If we actually got substantial numbers (have no idea what "substantial" would amount to), would Amazon pay attention? Another question to ask might be along the lines of, "Do you ever go back to the beginning of a book once you've finished it?"
> 
> I know I do, but I don't have a KU subscription, so I am not messing with author's page reads.


Multiple authors in this thread have reported polling their own readers and, if my memory and impression serves me, up to 20% of people read in a "nonstandard" manner, i.e., doing one or more of the following: going back to the beginning to look at the cover, going back to the beginning to look at front matter, going back to favorite scenes, clicking external links (which may, in some cases, cause page reads to be lost).

Anything that causes a reader to close a book anywhere other than at the end (or the last page read) will cause the author to lose legit reads.


----------



## David VanDyke

PhoenixS said:


> I'm working with an author right now who put his new release in KU yesterday. Report shows 22 pages read. Over 500 sales so far today and in the #200s. I'll know better tomorrow how many borrows there were today once we see best ranks overnight, but this is a popular author whose last book hit #60 during release in early November and has remained sub #1000 with 56 reviews and a 4.7 average. That Nov release has over 1.5 million page reads -- which is still about 30% UNDER what we believe it should have.
> 
> This author has a 9-book series that's sold over 850,000 copies, with a couple of spinoff series. This month's new release is a standalone in that universe. 22 pages is pretty unrealistic. I for one, can't comprehend that it's something off on *his* end.


This is what concerns me. I've seen the same thing happen to some, but not all, of my new releases. It almost looks binary, as if the books were put into one of two bins that had different functionality--one relatively normal, one hugely anomalous.

I have a long KU book going live in a couple of days and I will get another look then. It's on the .de site, a book translated into German, and my German books seem to be less affected, so I'm hoping it will work as it should.

I'm still of the belief that removing external links, front matter and TOCs has helped some of my books by reducing the number of readers closing the book anywhere but at the end.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

David VanDyke said:


> This is what concerns me. I've seen the same thing happen to some, but not all, of my new releases. It almost looks binary, as if the books were put into one of two bins that had different functionality--one relatively normal, one hugely anomalous.


Yes. I have a friend who's put out two releases under a new pen name. The first showed expected levels of pages read, based on previous books. The second, 6 weeks later and with similar sales performance, had pages read about 15% of the level of the first. That's way too big a difference to be accounted for by page flip/exit page/other reader behaviour. It can only be some kind of internal Amazon setting/programming/whatever.


----------



## 39416

I just got my very first one page KENP, on my most popular book, a book that it would probably take 3 KENP just to get past the TOC. So I guess I've finally been page flipped. I am very small potatoes in the self-pubber world of sales, so if it's reached my level of sales, that's bad.


----------



## H.C.

I read using pageflip. it's just more convenient for me. But I'm not in KU and not costing authors money. 

According to Amazon's TOS they are to pay us for every page read.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

loraininflorida said:


> I just got my very first one page KENP, on my most popular book, a book that it would probably take 3 KENP just to get past the TOC. So I guess I've finally been page flipped. I am very small potatoes in the self-pubber world of sales, so if it's reached my level of sales, that's bad.


There have always been single-page KENPs, predating page flip by many months. I had my first 1-page on 2nd July 2015 (they're more noticeable to prawny sellers, especially those of us who check non-US numbers occasionally). Yours MAY be because of page-flip, but it could also be for some innocuous reason, such as the reader opened the book to check if it had downloaded OK but decided to read it later.


----------



## David VanDyke

Herefortheride said:


> I read using pageflip. it's just more convenient for me. But I'm not in KU and not costing authors money.
> 
> According to Amazon's TOS they are to pay us for every page read.


Yes, but they reserve to right to define what a "page read" is.

They could define a "page read" as absolutely anything. Seriously. They could say a page read happens whenever a customer proves they've eaten toast today.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

PaulineMRoss said:


> Yes. I have a friend who's put out two releases under a new pen name. The first showed expected levels of pages read, based on previous books. The second, 6 weeks later and with similar sales performance, had pages read about 15% of the level of the first. That's way too big a difference to be accounted for by page flip/exit page/other reader behaviour. It can only be some kind of internal Amazon setting/programming/whatever.


I suspect a fraud prevention system that's still being calibrated on the back end. That's my guess as to why Amazon has been so "hush-hush" about things. They don't want anyone to know about their security measures just yet. It's been a crazy fire-monkey this year in ebooks! Remember, just not so long ago some authors were receiving erroneous account bans for supposed "automated page reads" and now this.

But in the end. Amazon is the biggest game in town. It's really hard to make money without them- which is a real shame. I keep waiting for someone to come along and shake things up a bit. That's what's really needed.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Gentleman Zombie said:


> I suspect a fraud prevention system that's still being calibrated on the back end. That's my guess as to why Amazon has been so "hush-hush" about things. They don't want anyone to know about their security measures just yet.


This has been going on (for me) since September. Any calibration should have been done by now. I think you're attributing more intelligence to the KU IT team than is warranted, alas. 

Your point about Amazon being about the only game in town also merits an alas. Alas.

And yes, as badly as Amazon has stubbed its toe here, you'd think that maybe B&N would take the opportunity, scrounge up $1,000,000 for a first-class IT team, and provide a decent alternative. Ah, well.


----------



## MiriamRosenbaum

PaulineMRoss said:


> ... (they're more noticeable to prawny sellers...


Can someone clue me in on the lingo? What does 'prawny' mean? 

On topic: Just how bad is the KU right now? Are we talking a loss of revenue within the 10-15%, or is it more along the lines of 50%+?


----------



## Guest

Prawny means a new author or an author who doesn't sell much. Like the ocean... some sharks, big fish, small fish and then prawns!


----------



## PearlEarringLady

MiriamRosenbaum said:


> Can someone clue me in on the lingo? What does 'prawny' mean?


As Andrew said, a small seller, someone not even on the midlist.



> On topic: Just how bad is the KU right now? Are we talking a loss of revenue within the 10-15%, or is it more along the lines of 50%+?


The one-line summary is that most people are either unaffected, or can't distinguish any changes from normal fluctuations, while a small number of people have suffered big drops in pages read (anything from 30% up to 90%), sometimes on individual books, especially new releases, but sometimes across the catalogue. There seems to be no pattern to it that's detectable so far.



Gentleman Zombie said:


> I suspect a fraud prevention system that's still being calibrated on the back end.


This is my opinion too. If so, it seems to be pretty buggy.


----------



## 75845

I'm a pre-prawn in sales terms (aka a crustacean gamete) and left KU over page flip, which I use to read and would recommend to anyone else with a manual disability (swipes are a lot less muscle strain than taps). However I wonder about the reports on "I released a book today and have less reads than sales." Even the keenest readers of new books presumably have a tendency to read other books and are unlikely to open the downloaded book straight away. There is no logical connection between page reads (which requires reading the book) and sales (which simply adds to the TBR). Or maybe I'm just odd having about 700 books in my TBR despite reading about 100 books per year.


----------



## Lydniz

I've started reading books in page flip too (I'm not in KU, honest!). I find it much easier to deal with.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Mercia McMahon said:


> I'm a pre-prawn in sales terms (aka a crustacean gamete) and left KU over page flip, which I use to read and would recommend to anyone else with a manual disability (swipes are a lot less muscle strain than taps). However I wonder about the reports on "I released a book today and have less reads than sales." Even the keenest readers of new books presumably have a tendency to read other books and are unlikely to open the downloaded book straight away. There is no logical connection between page reads (which requires reading the book) and sales (which simply adds to the TBR). Or maybe I'm just odd having about 700 books in my TBR despite reading about 100 books per year.


I'm fairly prawny myself, but even I can see a pattern with new releases. It's surprising how quickly page reads kick in, and then they build up over a few days to their maximum level. That's usually when authors would notice that they're not picking up as expected. I take your point about the delay in reading, but some readers DO download and start reading a book at once. There have been enough people in this thread detailing the problem, including people with a ton of data, like Phoenix Sullivan, that surely the issue is not still in doubt?


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

PaulineMRoss said:


> I'm fairly prawny myself, but even I can see a pattern with new releases. It's surprising how quickly page reads kick in, and then they build up over a few days to their maximum level. That's usually when authors would notice that they're not picking up as expected. I take your point about the delay in reading, but some readers DO download and start reading a book at once. There have been enough people in this thread detailing the problem, including people with a ton of data, like Phoenix Sullivan, that surely the issue is not still in doubt?


What is telling is "the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." Namely, no one at Amazon has said, "We've tested the Page Flip and Exit Point issues ourselves and can find no problem."

It is doubly curious because it would take Amazon's KU IT team less than 30 minutes to verify or dispel these reports. And not three months.


----------



## Colin

MiriamRosenbaum said:


> Can someone clue me in on the lingo? What does 'prawny' mean?


In publishing terms, a prawn is a crustacean who is barely earning a crust.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What is telling is "the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." Namely, no one at Amazon has said, "We've tested the Page Flip and Exit Point issues ourselves and can find no problem."
> 
> It is doubly curious because it would take Amazon's KU IT team less than 30 minutes to verify or dispel these reports. And not three months.


Go back and read the thread again. They _have_ said that.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

KelliWolfe said:


> Go back and read the thread again. They _have_ said that.


They've said that Page Flip is working as designed in not counting pages, not that it's not costing authors money.

Just did a quick scan, but my eyes may have missed it. Where did they address the Exit Point issue?


----------



## 75845

PaulineMRoss said:


> There have been enough people in this thread detailing the problem, including people with a ton of data, like Phoenix Sullivan, that surely the issue is not still in doubt?


It was Phoenix's last post that raised the doubt for me. Yes lots of people including her posting there must be something wrong because reads are so most lower than sales for new releases, but maybe the KU membership is changing to be more of the TBR crowd and therefore the reading pattern is shifting. It was always inevitable that the echo chamber evolution would hit KU, i.e., the membership affects what gets borrowed, which affects what's put in the system, which affects who cancels their membership, which affects what's put in KU, which affects who cancels their membership, and so on. It was never likely with a system like KU that any data no matter how tonned would be a effective guide over time as the system will change as the membership evolves.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Mercia McMahon said:


> It was Phoenix's last post that raised the doubt for me. Yes lots of people including her posting there must be something wrong because reads are so most lower than sales for new releases, but maybe the KU membership is changing to be more of the TBR crowd and therefore the reading pattern is shifting. It was always inevitable that the echo chamber evolution would hit KU, i.e., the membership affects what gets borrowed, which affects what's put in the system, which affects who cancels their membership, which affects what's put in KU, which affects who cancels their membership, and so on. It was never likely with a system like KU that any data no matter how tonned would be a effective guide over time as the system will change as the membership evolves.


Perhaps. But you're talking gradual change here. My drop-off was like rolling off a table. And others have said the same.

Edit: One thought just occurred to me. Surely there's an author who's been affected by this phenomenon who's also an attorney. If they have enough data for a "preponderance of the evidence" that Amazon is in breach of contract, they could sue practically as a hobby, or even do the arbitration bit if they can't get around that.

Heck, maybe that's been done, and hushed-up, and the attorney's books have been flagged to use the old page-counting method again. :/


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Colin said:


> In publishing terms, a prawn is a crustacean who is barely earning a crust.


A term coined by our own Carol. If I remember correctly, she was calling us Amazon pawns and it came out prawns. It certainly has stuck.


----------



## Colin

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> A term coined by our own Carol. If I remember correctly, she was calling us Amazon pawns and it came out prawns. It certainly has stuck.


Yes, I'm pretty sure it's a genuine KBoardism.


----------



## EC Sheedy

Colin said:


> Yes, I'm pretty sure it's a genuine KBoardism.


I thought the originator of "prawn" was Dalya from way back. I miss her. Funny and smart.


----------



## Colin

EC Sheedy said:


> I thought the originator of "prawn" was Dalya from way back. I miss her. Funny and smart.


I think you're right. It was Dalya who invented the 'publishing prawn' - so it's a Dalyaism.


----------



## Ava Glass

Some new job openings in the area of digital royalties. These are the people who make the programs that calculate KU earnings.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466768
https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466771
https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466767
https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466835



> Our team deals with all aspects of Kindle royalties and analytics, including building software systems that determine royalties for Kindle Unlimited


There's also an opening for a position to make sure content providers are paid on time and in the right amount.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/467090



> With an emphasis on an exceptional vendor experience and robust internal controls, the goal of this position will be to pay all content providers on time and in the amount, payment method, and currency they expect.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

Seems like this hasn't been resolved yet. Which makes me wonder... is this not a good time to enroll an entire series in KU? My goal is to "refresh" the series for the next 90 days in KU, then go wide again with the final book in February.


----------



## notjohn

David VanDyke said:


> up to 20% of people read in a "nonstandard" manner, i.e., doing one or more of the following: going back to the beginning to look at the cover, going back to the beginning to look at front matter


I always page back to the cover and work forward, just as if it were a print edition. I cannot imagine opening a book at the first text page. How would I know who wrote it? Who published it? Other books by same author? Sheez.


----------



## H.C.

My former classmate messaged me to tell me he read my book the other day in one sitting and really enjoyed it. He's in KU and I didn't see any page reads for over 24 hours so I asked him if he could open the book read it till the last page and then close the book. He did that and within a couple hours I had a read through. Then I asked him to go back in (to the final page where he left off) and flip back to the map (at the front). 

All the page reads disappeared.


----------



## meh

TOS.


----------



## MajesticMonkey

Herefortheride said:


> My former classmate messaged me to tell me he read my book the other day in one sitting and really enjoyed it. He's in KU and I didn't see any page reads for over 24 hours so I asked him if he could open the book read it till the last page and then close the book. He did that and within a couple hours I had a read through. Then I asked him to go back in (to the final page where he left off) and flip back to the map (at the front).
> 
> All the page reads disappeared.


This is so messed up. Unbelievable how little they appear to have cared about doing a good job for the authors when they put this whole thing together.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Herefortheride said:


> My former classmate messaged me to tell me he read my book the other day in one sitting and really enjoyed it. He's in KU and I didn't see any page reads for over 24 hours so I asked him if he could open the book read it till the last page and then close the book. He did that and within a couple hours I had a read through. Then I asked him to go back in (to the final page where he left off) and flip back to the map (at the front).
> 
> All the page reads disappeared.


That's frightening. And frustrating. And angering.

I wonder just how long that "unpaging" effect lasts. E.g., if you had waited a day and THEN asked him to flip back to the map, and exit, would the pages still have disappeared?

If someone screen-captured a Reports page with the blue graph going negative, how in Hades would Amazon attempt to explain _that_?

Answer: VAT.
(Joking. At least, I hope so.)

Thought: The graphing software may be smart enough not to go negative with negative data. HOWEVER ...
screen-caps of two Month-to-Date report displays (which show the KENPC pages), and which include the date/time at the bottom right of the screen, would demonstrate the _removal_ of KENPC pages, and this would be as good as a smoking gun.

Further thought: If anyone is able to capture this, DON'T do screen-caps. Take PICTURES, even if with a digital camera. That'll get around the accusation of manipulating the pixels in any screen capture (because manipulating pixels in a camera-generated jpg leaves marks). Also, you'll also get the camera timestamps on the two jpgs.

And even further thought: Taking two short mpgs of going to the Amazon Reports page, opening up the Month-to-Date report, and zooming in to that, and then to the bottom right of the screen, would be even more persuasive.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Herefortheride said:


> All the page reads disappeared.


That's the second report I've seen of that. So it's definitely a thing.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Ava Glass said:


> Some new job openings in the area of digital royalties. These are the people who make the programs that calculate KU earnings.
> 
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466768
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466771
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466767
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466835


Thanks for posting this! As someone who has been doing that sort of IT work for 25 years, I can say those are very junior positions they are advertising for  Not that there's anything wrong with junior programmers if you've got the right set up to use them effectively (very few places do), but unless the problem is a having a few great senior staff who just need grunt work done, these jobs don't suggest any near-term improvements.


----------



## Ava Glass

edwardgtalbot said:


> Thanks for posting this! As someone who has been doing that sort of IT work for 25 years, I can say those are very junior positions they are advertising for  Not that there's anything wrong with junior programmers if you've got the right set up to use them effectively (very few places do), but unless the problem is a having a few great senior staff who just need grunt work done, these jobs don't suggest any near-term improvements.


Those aren't all of the listings. Here's one that's a bit higher level:

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466770


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

edwardgtalbot said:


> Thanks for posting this! As someone who has been doing that sort of IT work for 25 years, I can say those are very junior positions they are advertising for  Not that there's anything wrong with junior programmers if you've got the right set up to use them effectively (very few places do), but unless the problem is a having a few great senior staff who just need grunt work done, these jobs don't suggest any near-term improvements.


Exactly. When the Kindle pages-read mechanism can't even spare two bytes for a high-water-mark value, you know the IT work is substandard.

Or done by unpaid interns.

In diapers.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Ava Glass said:


> Those aren't all of the listings. Here's one that's a bit higher level:
> 
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/466770


Yep, that one is a notch higher. I don't know what their range is, but most big companies go 4-6 levels with their main IT positions. This is a Level 2 position, and I would assume they would have at least two above it. It *is* good news that they are hiring this much, no question. Does anyone know if it's uncommon for them to have four or five positions open in this narrow area? It kind of seems like they have either recognized the need to scale way up, or they just let a bunch of people go who weren't performing. Or a variation on the second one - they decided to bring more it in house instead of offshore. If so, we'll probably see results by sometime next year.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

edwardgtalbot said:


> If so, we'll probably see results by sometime next year.


January or October? 

Seriously, the end-user (here, KU reader) not using the software as designed is the oldest, lamest-a$$ excuse in all of data processing / IT. And, in the past this naivete has even cost people their lives. For an application this critical, Amazon should have had the benefit of at least one experienced, savvy, cynical systems analyst. I cannot believe this to have been the case.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> January or October?


Were I a betting man, I'd say closer to October . Here's the thing - Amazon's technical competence for the past decade has been excellent when it comes to the buying experience. They do have occasional hiccups, but overall they have had very few IT sorts of problems. But when it comes to vendors, they have always from day one of integrating with vendors been much worse. I remember coding to their interface for an e-commerce site back in 2003 and it was garbage. Clearly their attitude towards all back end vendor stuff, including KDP, is still similar. I can't tell you the exact cause, but presumably it comes down to the amount of money they spend on it. BUt we're a captive audience 

This is going slightly afield from the topic of KDP problems, but the other sad thing is that they have roughly the same attitude towards the kindle line and some of their other hardware. That can be forgiven for generation one or two, but by now there should be so many more features on the kindles and they should have given up on the attempt to lock out Google Play with their own inferior version of Android.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

EC Sheedy said:


> I thought the originator of "prawn" was Dalya from way back. I miss her. Funny and smart.





Colin said:


> I think you're right. It was Dalya who invented the 'publishing prawn' - so it's a Dalyaism.


Carol is formerly Dalya, so we're all right.


----------



## RubyMadden

PhoenixS said:


> I'm working with an author right now who put his new release in KU yesterday. Report shows 22 pages read. Over 500 sales so far today and in the #200s. I'll know better tomorrow how many borrows there were today once we see best ranks overnight, but this is a popular author whose last book hit #60 during release in early November and has remained sub #1000 with 56 reviews and a 4.7 average. That Nov release has over 1.5 million page reads -- which is still about 30% UNDER what we believe it should have.
> 
> This author has a 9-book series that's sold over 850,000 copies, with a couple of spinoff series. This month's new release is a standalone in that universe. 22 pages is pretty unrealistic. I for one, can't comprehend that it's something off on *his* end.


May I ask for an update on this?


----------



## Becca Mills

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Carol is formerly Dalya, so we're all right.


Carol is formerly Dara. Mimi is formerly Dalya.


----------



## katrina46

PhoenixS said:


> I'm working with an author right now who put his new release in KU yesterday. Report shows 22 pages read. Over 500 sales so far today and in the #200s. I'll know better tomorrow how many borrows there were today once we see best ranks overnight, but this is a popular author whose last book hit #60 during release in early November and has remained sub #1000 with 56 reviews and a 4.7 average. That Nov release has over 1.5 million page reads -- which is still about 30% UNDER what we believe it should have.
> 
> This author has a 9-book series that's sold over 850,000 copies, with a couple of spinoff series. This month's new release is a standalone in that universe. 22 pages is pretty unrealistic. I for one, can't comprehend that it's something off on *his* end.


Yeah, there are a lot of authors who were doing really well before this. It's hard to believe they all just tanked overnight at the same time.


----------



## katrina46

I still find the thread useful if for no other reason than I can see the issues still exist and it helps me decide whether to put my next serial into KU or not. What's going on in the market place is always useful knowledge.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Becca Mills said:


> Carol is formerly Dara. Mimi is formerly Dalya.


Hmmm.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Herefortheride said:


> My former classmate messaged me to tell me he read my book the other day in one sitting and really enjoyed it. He's in KU and I didn't see any page reads for over 24 hours so I asked him if he could open the book read it till the last page and then close the book. He did that and within a couple hours I had a read through. Then I asked him to go back in (to the final page where he left off) and flip back to the map (at the front).
> 
> All the page reads disappeared.


    

Perhaps I should get Leon Chameleon PI to investigate "The case of the missing page reads." 

Might be funny if it didn't involve people's livelihoods


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

katrina46 said:


> I still find the thread useful if for no other reason than I can see the issues still exist and it helps me decide whether to put my next serial into KU or not. What's going on in the market place is always useful knowledge.


Is it even worth doing any paid marketing if everything is so wonky?


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Becca Mills said:


> Carol is formerly Dara. Mimi is formerly Dalya.


I read a great series of books that used "formerly" in it to mean "the ghost of". Really good steampunk. The series was Parasol Protectorate. The first one called Soulless. Ghosts like formerly Merryway and other ghosts acting as messengers and spies hahah.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## 9 Diamonds

I'm so glad we're pulling all our titles out of KU.


----------



## katrina46

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Is it even worth doing any paid marketing if everything is so wonky?


I have a ton of stuff wide, so it's worth it for me, but the last time I promoted stuff in KU last month it didn't do as well as it had in the past. That's why I'm iffy about putting my next one into KU. I usually try to throw something new in once in a while, but I might be better off wide for the time being.


----------



## Guest

The way things are with the program currently, imo, are completely unacceptable.

KU for author is a faith / trust based program.

We rely on Amazon to report accurate numbers to our sales reports.

We rely on Amazon to pay us correctly.

If there is any consensus that this may not be happening, then it needs to be addressed, not ignored. 

To lie to authors, to cheat and steal from them - to treat them as nothing - completely blackens KU and Amazon's reputation for the unforeseeable future. 

In the short term they may get their fill being completely unprofessional and screwing them over, but 2 - 3 years down the track, anyone affected by this will remember what Amazon's word is worth. 

It's gone on far too long for anyone to say its a glitch. At this point, it's deliberate. 

Look at what's happening on youtube. Content creators will revolt. 

ATM what does KU have going for it other than that all the bestsellers are in it?

It used to be you wrote a story, and you got paid a flat rate whether it was sold or borrowed. Pages read is a complete screw over and most of us would be making more money if KU didn't exist.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Is it even worth doing any paid marketing if everything is so wonky?


I'll let you know. I'm trying a Bargainbooksy this Friday.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I'll let you know. I'm trying a Bargainbooksy this Friday.


Good luck . Will be interested in the results .


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I'll let you know. I'm trying a Bargainbooksy this Friday.


I'm doing RobinReads tomorrow and a historical fiction cross promo this weekend. Same book. I'll let you know as well.

But, all my page reads, freebies and sales keep disappearing so I'm afraid reporting will be wildly inaccurate.


----------



## GoneToWriterSanctum

ShaneJeffery said:


> The way things are with the program currently, imo, are completely unacceptable.
> 
> KU for author is a faith / trust based program.
> 
> We rely on Amazon to report accurate numbers to our sales reports.
> 
> We rely on Amazon to pay us correctly.
> 
> If there is any consensus that this may not be happening, then it needs to be addressed, not ignored.
> 
> To lie to authors, to cheat and steal from them - to treat them as nothing - completely blackens KU and Amazon's reputation for the unforeseeable future.
> 
> In the short term they may get their fill being completely unprofessional and screwing them over, but 2 - 3 years down the track, anyone affected by this will remember what Amazon's word is worth.
> 
> It's gone on far too long for anyone to say its a glitch. At this point, it's deliberate.
> 
> Look at what's happening on youtube. Content creators will revolt.
> 
> ATM what does KU have going for it other than that all the bestsellers are in it?
> 
> It used to be you wrote a story, and you got paid a flat rate whether it was sold or borrowed. Pages read is a complete screw over and most of us would be making more money if KU didn't exist.


This^^^times 1000!


----------



## raminar_dixon

As I said awhile back, I removed my books from KU and went wide. This is my official, in-depth report:

The results have been fine. 

My catalog is making around 15-20% less than I was in KU a few months ago. However, I've only had one new release since then. Still, I'd say I'm _probably_ making a good bit more than I would be if I were relying on pagereads right now through KU.

How much of this is related to old releases being seen as new releases at retailers like B&N? No telling.

How do I know what my pagereads might be? I don't. I'm not some mystical seer of alternate dimensions (by day, at least).

I can only go by what I'm seeing other experienced authors reporting to me and how a few of the big multi-author bundles I pubbed in KU are currently performing (terribly, awfully awful by the way).

Also, I'm seeing a major upswing in the number of non-KU books that I've been scheduling lately for promotions at TNL and Hot Stuff Romance.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

raminar_dixon said:


> How do I know what my pagereads might be? I don't. I'm not some mystical seer of alternate dimensions (by day, at least).


That's easy. Take the number of sales and multiply by 1.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Good luck . Will be interested in the results .


I'll let y'all know either way, but I'll give it three days for effect, and hope that I at least make back the ad cost.

Edit: If I'd had to pawn the silverware to get the money for the advertisement, would that have been an ad hock decision?


----------



## raminar_dixon

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> That's easy. Take the number of sales and multiply by 1.


Perhaps.

I've found, however, through extensive research, that multiplying by *salmon* to be a far superior method.


----------



## MiriamRosenbaum

It boggles the mind that a company as huge and wealthy as Amazon allows this kind of thing.

They make mountains of money - what's the salary of a few IT grunts compared to that? They could hire an entire army, and not even blink.

Am I missing something here? Why would Amazon allow such an important issue to go unresolved for so long? If anything, it makes them look bad.


----------



## doolittle03

TwistedTales said:


> I've got a messy situation with parts of series out so I can't load to apple and Google yet. One thing I have noticed is as soon as books started coming out of KU the sales line went up. Stranger still, the page reads have been winding down much slower than I expected. I can honestly say I'm seeing a slight improvement in total number of books going out each day rather than a loss and I'm not even on any other platforms yet.
> 
> Very strange.


I have a theory about this b/c I've seen the same thing happen with other books that I've taken out of KU. I think that 0.00 figure on the product page next to the regular price bugs people. I know it bugs me when I see something is free for a certain group and I'm not in the club. I realize KU is not free--not by a long shot--but the perception is there on the product page. It's an incentive to sign up for KU but that 0.00 could also turn people off from buying. It could be when it's gone, the buyers come out of the woodwork.

It's just a theory. Keeps me from thinking about the two books I have in KU that have 1 page reads each since the beginning of December. Probably just boring books. Or they haven't been read yet. Or some other excuse that will keep me in denial.


----------



## katrina46

MiriamRosenbaum said:


> It boggles the mind that a company as huge and wealthy as Amazon allows this kind of thing.
> 
> They make mountains of money - what's the salary of a few IT grunts compared to that? They could hire an entire army, and not even blink.
> 
> Am I missing something here? Why would Amazon allow such an important issue to go unresolved for so long? If anything, it makes them look bad.


Because they'd have to admit they have a problem and they don't like to do that is my guess, especially when it involves admitting they've underpaid a whole lot of people. They really aren't doing anything any other corporation wouldn't do in that situation. The burden of proof is on the author as long as they deny.


----------



## Becca Mills

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I read a great series of books that used "formerly" in it to mean "the ghost of". Really good steampunk. The series was Parasol Protectorate. The first one called Soulless. Ghosts like formerly Merryway and other ghosts acting as messengers and spies hahah.


That series has been on my TBR list for _years_.


----------



## David VanDyke

MiriamRosenbaum said:


> It boggles the mind that a company as huge and wealthy as Amazon allows this kind of thing.
> 
> They make mountains of money - what's the salary of a few IT grunts compared to that? They could hire an entire army, and not even blink.
> 
> Am I missing something here? Why would Amazon allow such an important issue to go unresolved for so long? If anything, it makes them look bad.


Because Amazon is not monolithic. Unless Bezos directs something, his underlings are doing underling things, which might have nothing to do with rational customer or vendor service. Might be infighting, might be some motivations completely removed from what we would call common sense. Might be coverups.


----------



## David VanDyke

doolittle03 said:


> I have a theory about this b/c I've seen the same thing happen with other books that I've taken out of KU. I think that 0.00 figure on the product page next to the regular price bugs people. I know it bugs me when I see something is free for a certain group and I'm not in the club. I realize KU is not free--not by a long shot--but the perception is there on the product page. It's an incentive to sign up for KU but that 0.00 could also turn people off from buying. It could be when it's gone, the buyers come out of the woodwork.
> 
> It's just a theory. Keeps me from thinking about the two books I have in KU that have 1 page reads each since the beginning of December. Probably just boring books. Or they haven't been read yet. Or some other excuse that will keep me in denial.


Logically, there will be a nice buffer period for pulling out of KU where you will still be getting page reads for all those books in peoples' queues. Naturally you will see your sales line go up, especially for sequels, as most people who want to read the next book will go ahead and pay retail, though they would have KU'ed it if it were available. Kind of like when you have restaurant coupons: some will choose where to eat based on the coupons they have, but some will eat where they want, and the coupon is merely a nice bonus.


----------



## David VanDyke

I just released a new, long (779 KENPC) 10th book in my series on the .de (German language) site and my page reads look normal. So, that's good news. 

However, I still have a box set in English with 3000 KENPC and 10x the sales that has fewer daily page reads than this one already has.

I wonder if books that exceed the 3000 limit get some kind of penalty?

Anyone have any books in the 2000-2900 page range for comparison with their 3000+ books?


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

David VanDyke said:


> I wonder if books that exceed the 3000 limit get some kind of penalty?


I do know that individual volumes with more than 3000 KENPC only give read credit for 3000 (an attempt to stamp out bogus junk-in-the-middle books).

I wouldn't _think_ this would apply to a bundle, but we all know by now how robust the IT programming is for Kay Yoo.


----------



## David VanDyke

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I do know that individual volumes with more than 3000 KENPC only give read credit for 3000 (an attempt to stamp out bogus junk-in-the-middle books).
> 
> I wouldn't _think_ this would apply to a bundle, but we all know by now how robust the IT programming is for Kay Yoo.


Yes, that's why I say it's a 3000-KENPC volume when it's really over 4000. It's limited to 3000, but it's only getting a third or fewer the page reads I estimate it should be getting.

Thus, the desire to compare it to a book that's just UNDER the 3000 cap, to see if there might be something in the algorithm that's being triggered by books over the cap.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

David VanDyke said:


> Yes, that's why I say it's a 3000-KENPC volume when it's really over 4000. It's limited to 3000, but it's only getting a third or fewer the page reads I estimate it should be getting.
> 
> This, the desire to compare it to a book that's just UNDER the 3000 cap, to see if there might be something in the algorithm that's being triggered by books over the cap.


Are you saying that the "boxed set" is a single book you manually merged from the other books, and not individual KDP files gathered by Amazon and sold as one unit? (I've never done a "boxed set" before, so I don't know.) Asking out of curiosity.


----------



## KaraKing

ShaneJeffery said:


> The way things are with the program currently, imo, are completely unacceptable.
> 
> KU for author is a faith / trust based program.
> 
> We rely on Amazon to report accurate numbers to our sales reports.
> 
> We rely on Amazon to pay us correctly.
> 
> If there is any consensus that this may not be happening, then it needs to be addressed, not ignored.
> 
> To lie to authors, to cheat and steal from them - to treat them as nothing - completely blackens KU and Amazon's reputation for the unforeseeable future.
> 
> In the short term they may get their fill being completely unprofessional and screwing them over, but 2 - 3 years down the track, anyone affected by this will remember what Amazon's word is worth.
> 
> It's gone on far too long for anyone to say its a glitch. At this point, it's deliberate.
> 
> Look at what's happening on youtube. Content creators will revolt.
> 
> ATM what does KU have going for it other than that all the bestsellers are in it?
> 
> It used to be you wrote a story, and you got paid a flat rate whether it was sold or borrowed. Pages read is a complete screw over and most of us would be making more money if KU didn't exist.


Yes!!! Well said.


----------



## David VanDyke

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Are you saying that the "boxed set" is a single book you manually merged from the other books, and not individual KDP files gathered by Amazon and sold as one unit? (I've never done a "boxed set" before, so I don't know.) Asking out of curiosity.


There is no such thing as individual files gathered by Amazon and sold as a unit.

A box set is a book that has more than one book in it, and is labeled and sold as such. Functionally, it's no different from a big book. Except in this case, it's over the 3000 page cap. I am interested in seeing if anything barely under the cap is similarly affected.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

David VanDyke said:


> There is no such thing as individual files gathered by Amazon and sold as a unit.


I think they're referring to when Amazon gathers everything in a series and offers a price to buy the entire series. That's still individual books, though.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## David VanDyke

PhoenixS said:


> We have a single-author romance box with a 2210 KENPC. It's hanging in the #7000 range right now, probably long enough that it's taking about 20 sales-equivalents per day to maintain.
> 
> It's getting about 3-4 sales per day on .com, so likely 16-17 borrows per day.
> 
> Page reads on .com are bouncing between about 7K and 11K per day, with an average of about 9K per day, or the equivalent of about 4 full reads per day.
> 
> How does that compare to yours?


That's far, far better. Mine's getting 20 red sales a day (at 99c) and 3-4K reads.


----------



## PhoenixS

**************


----------



## David VanDyke

Yes it's those sets, and I'm comparing them to my ordinary, shorter books.

I'm also comparing them to themselves--before the seismic shift this summer, AFII was showing 2x-5x the page reads the similar AFIII is getting, with a similar 99c red sales profile.

I also had AFIV at 2.99 the the first month and a half, with AFII and AFIII at 99c. Their page reads profiles were almost identical, despite AFIV at 2.99 getting about a one-third the sales and running at a much lower (higher number) ranking. So I don't think it was, for example, masses of KU readers suddenly choosing to buy at 99c instead of borrowing for free, and I don't see why KU readers should change their behavior en masse so radically in about 10 months.

To put it in more perspective, here are the numbers of AF2, 3 and 4 for November on .com:

AF2 (published Nov 19, 2015) Sales: 119. Reads: 112363, over 900/sale

AF3 (Published Oct 1, 2016) Sales: 576  Reads: 117901, about 200/sale  (note the huge difference between sales of 2 and 3 with similar page reads)

AF4 (Published Oct 10, 2016) Sales: 250  Reads: 50615, about 200/sale (note how this conforms to AF3's profile, but not AF2's)

Each of these are multi-author sets in the same genre, all exceeding the 3000 cap. But they seem to be operating under different rules between 2 and 3/4.

For the comparative month (January 2016), AF2 had 752 sales and 405657 page reads, almost 600/sale.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

David VanDyke said:


> To put it in more perspective, here are the numbers of AF2, 3 and 4 for November on .com:


These numbers are fascinating - thanks for posting them.

May I ask - is it just your box sets that are affected, or have you got individual books showing the same issue?


----------



## Philip Gibson

David VanDyke said:


> There is no such thing as individual files gathered by Amazon and sold as a unit.
> 
> A box set is a book that has more than one book in it, and is labeled and sold as such. Functionally, it's no different from a big book. Except in this case, it's over the 3000 page cap. I am interested in seeing if anything barely under the cap is similarly affected.


Although Amazon don't gather books themselves into a box set, they do display bundles of books in a series (I've always had to ask for them). They then create a series page which lists all the books with their individual buy buttons. They also provide the price to buy the entire series, but I don't see a button for customers to buy the entire series.

I wish they would provide such a buy button.

Philip


----------



## Not any more

Herefortheride said:


> My former classmate messaged me to tell me he read my book the other day in one sitting and really enjoyed it. He's in KU and I didn't see any page reads for over 24 hours so I asked him if he could open the book read it till the last page and then close the book. He did that and within a couple hours I had a read through. Then I asked him to go back in (to the final page where he left off) and flip back to the map (at the front).
> 
> All the page reads disappeared.


If this is happening, it's due to some kind of change in their programming. I know that when I read a book, at the end I take it back to the cover. It's just habit to put things away.

December is shaping up to be the worst month since I put all my books into KU in July 2015. The past five days, I have 0 pages read. From an average in August of 5,600 pages a day, 2,000 pages a day in September, to barely 1,000 pages a day in November. My revenues have always been about 2/3 pages read, and that has flipped.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

brkingsolver said:


> If this is happening, it's due to some kind of change in their programming. I know that when I read a book, at the end I take it back to the cover. It's just habit to put things away.
> 
> December is shaping up to be the worst month since I put all my books into KU in July 2015. The past five days, I have 0 pages read. From an average in August of 5,600 pages a day, 2,000 pages a day in September, to barely 1,000 pages a day in November. My revenues have always been about 2/3 pages read, and that has flipped.


I've gone as long as 9 days with no page reads, but mine weren't nearly as high as yours with only a few hundred a day or less and some days none, so I don't feel so bad that mine have flat-lined. However, I do feel for you with such a huge loss of earnings


----------



## 9 Diamonds

Clearly the system is not being fixed. I've no regrets about pulling all our catalog out of it.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

9 Diamonds said:


> Clearly the system is not being fixed. I've no regrets about pulling all our catalog out of it.


Did you go Smashwords or D2D? Or use some other approach? (Being nosy again.)


----------



## doolittle03

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Did you go Smashwords or D2D? Or use some other approach? (Being nosy again.)


Joseph, I'm not 9 Diamonds but I like SW and D2D so I use both for their different markets. SW has a store that get me lots of sales for some reason and D2D has a universal book link that I use everywhere to send folks to whatever store they want.

The 1-page reads on 2 of my books hasn't changed in 8 days now. And I'm irritated with Amazon as a customer (I know they're following this thread) GUYS! You have data on just about everything about me, so when I try to buy a book through BookBub, why-oh-why do you redirect me to amazon.ca without sending me to the book's *.ca *product page? Why do I have to capture the exact link and change it to .ca to get the blasted book?! It's a lot of steps, Amazon. Just send Canucks to the _exact page_ when we click the link if it's not too much trouble.


----------



## David VanDyke

PaulineMRoss said:


> These numbers are fascinating - thanks for posting them.
> 
> May I ask - is it just your box sets that are affected, or have you got individual books showing the same issue?


Just the box sets, and only recent ones.


----------



## David VanDyke

brkingsolver said:


> I know that when I read a book, at the end I take it back to the cover. It's just habit to put things away.


I'm not attributing fault to you, but by doing that, you deny the author the pages read.

It's Amazon's fault.

But, now that I know this, I always make sure to close the book at my last page read, or at the end. It's only fair to the author.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

David VanDyke said:


> But, now that I know this, I always make sure to close the book at my last page read, or at the end. It's only fair to the author.


Agree. But I'll bet not 2% of the KU readership are aware of this.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Agree. But I'll bet not 2% of the KU readership are aware of this.


I don't think most readers probably bother to go back to the beginning before closing a book. I certainly don't. But I could be unusual.


----------



## Not any more

David VanDyke said:


> I'm not attributing fault to you, but by doing that, you deny the author the pages read.
> 
> It's Amazon's fault.
> 
> But, now that I know this, I always make sure to close the book at my last page read, or at the end. It's only fair to the author.


Obviously I won't be doing it any more. But if this is what's happening now, it's a change they've made that they need to fix. I'm releasing a new book next week, and if the page reads don't come in, I'll be pulling most of my backlist out the end of the month. Without the reads, exclusivity makes zero sense.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

I'm running a robin reads promo today and I've either got two full reads of the book or 566 one page reads.


----------



## RinG

It seems to me, if the rankings are now vaguely in line with the number of borrows/page reads (which I think is what Phoenix was saying), that it seems that there has perhaps been some sort of algorithm change in how people are specifically finding books to read in KU. Not being a KU reader (and not having a kindle), I'm not sure if there is a different process than there is for just people searching for a book to buy. Is this the case?


----------



## dragontucker

I just had a new release and had some KU reads come in after emailing my email list. Not a ton....but more than I have ever seen. I had over 600 page reads today. I know....it's sad. But....it's my all time high. Looks like a reader read both book two and three of my series  So....that is some good news perhaps?


----------



## Colin

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I'm running a robin reads promo today and I've either got two full reads of the book or 566 one page reads.


I'm guessing that you have 283 two page reads...


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Colin said:


> I'm guessing that you have 283 two page reads...


And they all fell asleep after reading two pages. If they all have insomnia again tomorrow night &#127769; maybe they'll read another two pages. Maybe they'll even tell all their friend about this wonderful book that puts them right to sleep. Wow. I've found a whole new niche of readers.


----------



## RubyMadden

PhoenixS said:


> Let's see, I posted that on Friday, Dec 2. Here are ranks for the book:
> 
> 6th Dec Highest: 116
> Lowest: 143
> 5th Dec Highest: 120
> Lowest: 139
> 4th Dec Highest: 109
> Lowest: 140
> 3rd Dec Highest: 115
> Lowest: 259
> 2nd Dec Highest: 274
> 
> On Dec 4, when it hit #109, it still had fewer than 8000 page reads (about 20 full reads).
> 
> Dec 5 it started rallying some, with 17,000 page reads by mid-afternoon, after bouncing around between #120 and #140 that day.
> 
> Some of this may be attributable to reporting lag. And we know some folk stockpile KU books, and that page reads can increase with a snowballing effect up to certain point. But compare those page reads numbers to the Nov release that on Dec 5 was bouncing between #1000 and #1100 with about 35,000 page reads.
> 
> Which, I'll reiterate for the Nov release, we still think is below average. In fact, a release in spring, which did not see the same sustained high ranks as the Nov release, had MORE page reads cumulatively during its first month than the Nov release has had.
> 
> It's still early days for the December book, however, to predict where it will eventually wind up...


Thank you! I would agree, the page reads # seems too low as compared to the ranking... 
Keep tracking, please!


----------



## RubyMadden

BLOG >>> https://rubymadden.com/2016/12/09/the-ku-conundrum/

Please SHARE!!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

RubyMadden said:


> BLOG >>> https://rubymadden.com/2016/12/09/the-ku-conundrum/
> 
> Please SHARE!!


Thanks. Read and digested your blog post .
I think your sample letter to Jeff Bezos might have more impact if the readers say they have noticed their favourite authors are pulling out of KU and if more pull out then KU won't be worthwhile for them. Losing customers is something they don't want


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks. Read and digested your blog post .
> I think your sample letter to Jeff Bezos might have more impact if the readers say they have noticed their favourite authors are pulling out of KU and if more pull out then KU won't be worthwhile for them. Losing customers is something they don't want


Here's the thing about losing customers. Most big companies don't care (except the cable companies because Roku and other devices are finally beginning to hit them noticeably hard).

They don't care because if they lose someone for whatever reason, someone else from a similar company that is angry with that company for some reason, will sign up with the first company. They shift customers back and forth all the time. All Amazon has to do is hit the advertising a little harder, bring in more Prime members which then encourages more customers to conveniently shop on Amazon.

See my first example. The cable companies. Amazon competes against them with their Fire Stick, Prime Video, and now subscriptions to Starz, Showtime, HBO, etc. So, they lose some KU subscribers and they pick up movie channel subscribers.

Sure, no company wants to lose market share, but do they really, in the long run, lose that share? Or do they pick up the losses from Itunes, B&N, Kobo and just as those companies pick up the losses from Amazon. Amazon just seems to stay ahead of the game and they know how to do it very well.

Okay, everyone. Go ahead and yell at me and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.


----------



## 75845

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Okay, everyone. Go ahead and yell at me and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.


Actually you are correctly pointing out the key weakness of the Kindle Unlimited business model: for many financially struggling book readers a KU subscription means being an exclusive reader so that you can justify the monthly cost and among the rivals losing out is non KU books on Amazon. That factor will gradually come more and more to shape KU subscribers who aren't in the income bracket to treat it like a gym membership.


----------



## sela

I suspect that the reason Amazon likes KU is because it means those voracious book buyers can spend their money on other stuff in the everything store. Instead of a voracious reader spending $50 on ten books, they spend $9.99 on unlimited books and then $40 on non-book items.


----------



## Not any more

RubyMadden said:


> BLOG >>> https://rubymadden.com/2016/12/09/the-ku-conundrum/
> 
> Please SHARE!!


I just tweeted it. My experience exactly. With a new release coming out next week to kick off a new series, I've spent more on promos and advertising than I've made the past three months. Almost exactly what I made in August alone...


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## RubyMadden

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks. Read and digested your blog post .
> I think your sample letter to Jeff Bezos might have more impact if the readers say they have noticed their favourite authors are pulling out of KU and if more pull out then KU won't be worthwhile for them. Losing customers is something they don't want


Great suggestion, I'll amend it.


----------



## RubyMadden

sela said:


> I suspect that the reason Amazon likes KU is because it means those voracious book buyers can spend their money on other stuff in the everything store. Instead of a voracious reader spending $50 on ten books, they spend $9.99 on unlimited books and then $40 on non-book items.


You nailed it, I agree. They design a lot of their programs with that in mind. Treat it like a portal.


----------



## KelliWolfe

sela said:


> I suspect that the reason Amazon likes KU is because it means those voracious book buyers can spend their money on other stuff in the everything store. Instead of a voracious reader spending $50 on ten books, they spend $9.99 on unlimited books and then $40 on non-book items.


Isn't their margin on ebooks substantially higher than that on just about anything else, though? Especially when you add in their delivery charge.


----------



## RubyMadden

brkingsolver said:


> I just tweeted it. My experience exactly. With a new release coming out next week to kick off a new series, I've spent more on promos and advertising than I've made the past three months. Almost exactly what I made in August alone...


I'm sorry to hear it. It just plain sux... I really hope it's actually something they can figure out and fix. But from the way they've responded thus far to authors who've contacted KDP, they seem to be sweeping it under the rug and acting like nothing has changed. Frustrating!


----------



## Desert Rose

Atlantisatheart said:


> Amazon is becoming one of those annoying sites where ads are blasting you on every page. Sponsored products under the books have overloaded the simplicity of the details page. The site looks a mess - like ebay.


I may be an atypical shopper, but when a business starts looking desperate - either Amazon with their ads all over product pages, or when my Walmart put up screens blasting ads over their endcap displays - I start to wonder if that business is in trouble.


----------



## H.C.

Preparing an upcoming trip to Japan I just realized that I had been reading the entire guidebook in pageflip mode without even realizing it. When I opened the book it's already in pageflip and I don't even know how to get out of it.


----------



## RedAlert

Dragovian said:


> I may be an atypical shopper, but when a business starts looking desperate - either Amazon with their ads all over product pages, or when my Walmart put up screens blasting ads over their endcap displays - I start to wonder if that business is in trouble.


Yeah, I agree with that. It's been too long for this problem to still be ongoing. If they wanted this/these problem(s) fixed, it would have been done. They have the money (?) and means to fix it. What a shame. They could at least have hired a crew to say something else than "there is no problem." No wonder the author community is restless and rebelling.


----------



## katrina46

Lara Blunte said:


> I have a story much like everyone else's. After a year I understand trends, dips, etc -- but to get something to fall precipitously when I am advertising -- AND IN AMAZON (AMS) AS WELL -- is pretty amazing.
> 
> I now sometimes have days that start at 1.05$ (when before an incredibly bad day was 10$) and STAY at 1.05$ for 24 hours. That means that out of 6 books (now 4 because I am removing them) NOT ONE READER PASSED A SINGLE PAGE ALL DAY...
> 
> Amazon says they find nothing wrong with that. It keeps happening -- today is one of those days. I've had .50c days.
> 
> BUT the worst thing I've noticed is that before when I did a promo ALL the book page counts would rise: mostly the book that was advertised, but the others as well.
> 
> The last 85$ ad I did in November gave me a paltry amount of KENP for the book advertised and ALL THE OTHER ONES FROZE. If you look at a graph of that day in terms of ranking of the books (in author central) there is a HUGE DIP, like a big V on that day for ALL books -- except the one that I advertised which rose very moderately. Not anything like promos I did before.
> 
> That is not only bucking a trend, it is REVERSING it with a vengeance...Why did those books take a particular dip that day? On the following days they all went up in the ranking to a sort of normal/low place again though I wasn't advertising anymore or doing anything...
> 
> I think that when Amazon sees page counts rising (as during a promo) they may be interpreting it as suspicious behavior and freezing the count for that day or those days.
> 
> I have been doing ads in Bub these days and I can see that people are clicking through, but I am having 1$ and 2$ day (sales and KENP combined).
> 
> The problem with all this is that it cannot be proven -- I have shown them the pages that are frozen all day, taking screen prints -- how not ONE page moved in any book. I've shown them what used to happen in promo days (rise) and what happened now (big dip). I've shown them the graph diving in spite of advertising WITH THEM as well as Bub and others.
> 
> They send me back the response that they see nothing wrong with it.
> 
> I'm taking all my books out of Select. I would say it's wise of anyone who has felt the dip to do the same. Too bad, it was really great for almost a year but either 1/ there is something wrong with their software and they won't admit it or 2/ they have change the way to count the pages and the new system is crazy and obviously not worth us being exclusive or 3/ they are trying out some new crazy software on some guinea pigs and it's working VERY badly, everyone is losing pages, and they can't admit that either or everyone would be clamoring at their door.
> 
> They do admit that they make "trials" of new things (like the new dashboard) by segments of authors, which is fine -- except when it involves our money.
> 
> If there is never an admission from Amazon that something was off, but it has been fixed -- and we are paid the pages that were lost when the system wasn't working -- I think it's madness to stay.
> 
> Maybe they want a lot of us out. Who knows?
> 
> I have a Bub coming up and am sorry that all my books aren't out yet. I can just see the KENP pages dipping those days and them saying everything is fine when I did a Bub 3 months ago and KENP was amazing...
> 
> Also, doing free days is no longer working there. I had 5000 downloads in 2 days and when it reverted to paid I was at the same place or worse in the ranking.
> 
> And, also, I do a search for my books and there they are in a vertical row and beneath them as a SPONSORED product a cover with red satin and something like The Duke and the Maid, a naughty Victorian novel about how...the Duke likes to spank the maid...Don't all of you run to buy it...
> 
> It gave me a laugh, but darn, I did pay to promote my books for a year, they aren't salacious at all cause I'm too lazy to describe all that, and someone paid to encroach on the search of my name with the continuing saga of Kiki the spanked maid.
> 
> I wonder if Kiki and the Duke do well in KENP...


I hate when I see sponsored ads on my book page. You work hard to get readers to your book and then Amazon says, "Wait, before you buy that book, you might prefer this one instead. It drives me nuts.


----------



## 5ngela

I like KU. It would be sad if more and more authors leave KU. But if authors decide to leave KU, I hope they make their books wide. I never like exclusivity.


----------



## SpringFever

RubyMadden said:


> I agree with Kelli completely.
> 
> General Remarks: It's been deteriorating all year long. Whereas $100-500 in 3rd party ad promos would get a decent to good return once upon a time, now $1000 in ad promo *might* get a decent return. This is the first time I haven't seen an ROI. And this is despite my NL growing by thousands as well as follows & likes for all social media. As is, I have no plans to put any more $ into ad promos for 2017. And to be competitive on FACEBOOK ADS, you need literally $3-5K to make a dent to get into the upper Top 500 for the entire store. Only then, if you can sustain that type of ad budget, will you stay in the Top 1000.


I think these days you need the support of a good base of fellow authors, the reach they have is better than money any day. They help and support each other, with mail swaps, giveaways, list building, and help make you a success. Outside of that support system, things get tougher. 
Something money spent on ads will never replace. Of course, box sets are also good for visibility, and for authors to again work together. Unfortunately, you might find getting in a box set difficult given the climate now, after certain organizers have spoiled things with their selfish behaviour.

For Facebook ads, you do need a good chunk of money to splash on them. But once the money is gone, and if your ROI isn't good, you are back to square one. It's very true, that money isn't everything. Which is where the author support group wins every time, because, on the whole, other authors are very generous, giving with their time, their trust and expertise. We work better as a group. Several other authors mailing lists at the beginning of a launch are golden, much better than risking money on untested new ads.

So my advice would be to never harm your reputation, and nurture your relationships with others in your genre. Those relationships are golden.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

We are having a similar problem with the roll out of a new billing system for our electricity accounts. One pensioner who normally pays R1500 was charged R9000 - and the municipality claim "there is nothing wrong with the new system." Numerous irate letters to the newspaper all elicit the 'nothing wrong' response. 
I've just had a bill for R0.00 for the current month's charges, which makes me nervous that next month there will be a double charge  .


----------



## 9 Diamonds

Lara Blunte said:


> I'm taking all my books out of Select. I would say it's wise of anyone who has felt the dip to do the same.


I agree, and have done this very thing, and am not enrolling new releases in Select.


----------



## SpringFever

katrina46 said:


> I hate when I see sponsored ads on my book page. You work hard to get readers to your book and then Amazon says, "Wait, before you buy that book, you might prefer this one instead. It drives me nuts.


I believe this is the future. They want to earn money from those ads, they've seen how FB ads have contributed to some author's careers and want a slice of it. Soon it will be who is the best marketer, not the best writer. Good books will always have a chance to shine.... If you can find them.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

SpringFever said:


> I believe this is the future. They want to earn money from those ads, they've seen how FB ads have contributed to some author's careers and want a slice of it. Soon it will be who is the best marketer, not the best writer. Good books will always have a chance to shine.... If you can find them.


I think it's always been the best marketed book rather than the best writer that gets into the bestseller list. Trad publishers like writers who are also entertaining speakers and will travel the country (or world) speaking at book launches. This is the way they sell books and generate interest. One publisher confessed that they had some writers who they wouldn't let near the book-buying public


----------



## I See What You Did There

SpringFever said:


> RubyMadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with Kelli completely.
> 
> General Remarks: It's been deteriorating all year long. Whereas $100-500 in 3rd party ad promos would get a decent to good return once upon a time, now $1000 in ad promo *might* get a decent return. This is the first time I haven't seen an ROI. And this is despite my NL growing by thousands as well as follows & likes for all social media. As is, I have no plans to put any more $ into ad promos for 2017. And to be competitive on FACEBOOK ADS, you need literally $3-5K to make a dent to get into the upper Top 500 for the entire store. Only then, if you can sustain that type of ad budget, will you stay in the Top 1000.
> 
> 
> 
> I think these days you need the support of a good base of fellow authors, the reach they have is better than money any day. They help and support each other, with mail swaps, giveaways, list building, and help make you a success. Outside of that support system, things get tougher.
> Something money spent on ads will never replace. Of course, box sets are also good for visibility, and for authors to again work together. Unfortunately, you might find getting in a box set difficult given the climate now, after certain organizers have spoiled things with their selfish behaviour.
> 
> For Facebook ads, you do need a good chunk of money to splash on them. But once the money is gone, and if your ROI isn't good, you are back to square one. It's very true, that money isn't everything. Which is where the author support group wins every time, because, on the whole, other authors are very generous, giving with their time, their trust and expertise. We work better as a group. Several other authors mailing lists at the beginning of a launch are golden, much better than risking money on untested new ads.
> 
> So my advice would be to never harm your reputation, and nurture your relationships with others in your genre. Those relationships are golden.
Click to expand...

Very true. There are always blips in the industry, but professional connections are invaluable. So is trust. Not everyone has a Dory-like memory.

There's a thread about the recent boxed set scams here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,243297.25.html. It's good to stay educated. Unscrupulous people are everywhere.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Folks . . . let's stay on topic . . . . meandering though it may be.  

Some off topic posts re: issues best left private between individuals (or replies to such) have been removed.


----------



## Not any more

I unchecked all the boxes. As soon as I get through this new release, will set up to go wide on Dec. 26. Most of my books were originally published through Smashwords as well as Amazon, so all I have to do is upload the current versions (front and back matter changes) and hit 'publish'. Six total page reads over seven books since Dec. 5. What ever the reason is for the drop off, I could have sold one 99 cent book at another retailer and equaled my KU earnings. I'll swallow exclusivity if it pays, but not when it doesn't.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

brkingsolver said:


> I unchecked all the boxes. As soon as I get through this new release, will set up to go wide on Dec. 26. Most of my books were originally published through Smashwords as well as Amazon, so all I have to do is upload the current versions (front and back matter changes) and hit 'publish'. Six total page reads over seven books since Dec. 5. What ever the reason is for the drop off, I could have sold one 99 cent book at another retailer and equaled my KU earnings. I'll swallow exclusivity if it pays, but not when it doesn't.


Yup. Doing a slow burn myself. I'm running a Bargain Booksy for a couple of days, and I've seen some sales and some rating bumps that can't be explained by sales (and are thus borrows). Number of pages read so far? ZERO. As stated before, I've unchecked all my titles from auto-renewal.

The big Q, as it has been, is why are some authors "golden" and not seeing this? I've postulated the A/B categorization of works, marking them to use either the old or new method of counting pages, as have others. But this stuff has been going on for SO LONG, testing time should be over and everyone in KU should by now be seeing the same activity.

KU seems to have become FU. 

Edit: After much thought, about the only real-world explanations I can come up with for why Amazon hasn't just fallen back to the previous release of Kindle software are these:
1) They outsourced the Kindle development, to some independent company, maybe in India, and don't actually have the source code, and Amazon has failed to renew the maintenance contract ...
2) The last update was done in such a way that someone REALLY messed up and killed the ability to fall back. If so, that is a DP/IT error that not only demands a termination, but also a mob hit. Seriously.

Grrrrrr......


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> The big Q, as it has been, is why are some authors "golden" and not seeing this?


Yes, indeed. And another aspect that interests me: why are some authors affected across the board, whereas others are only hit with specific books?



> Edit: After much thought, about the only real-world explanation I can come up with for why Amazon hasn't just fallen back to the previous release of Kindle software is this:


Your explanation assumes that this is a glitch/bug/programming error. There is also the possibility that the changes are working exactly as Amazon intended, or, more realistically, that it's 90% of the way there, but they're happy to accept some collateral damage to achieve... well, whatever it is they're trying to achieve.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

It's getting quite depressing to think that my dashboard has been flat-lined for so long that I actually got excited about a 1 page read    .


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

PaulineMRoss said:


> Yes, indeed. And another aspect that interests me: why are some authors affected across the board, whereas others are only hit with specific books?


Introducing Page Flip for Kindle
June 28, 2016 12:47 PM
We wanted you to know about a great new Kindle feature we think readers will love.

Page Flip is a re-imagined Kindle navigation experience that makes it easy to explore books while always saving your place. With Page Flip, readers can easily flip back and forth between pages to reference different parts of the book while they read.

Page Flip automatically saves the page you're reading in a book, pinning it to the side of your screen for easy navigation. Flip back and forth in a book with confidence, knowing you can instantly jump back to reading with a simple tap of your pinned page.

Zoom out to get a bird's eye view of the book and quickly find what you're looking for. At a glance, easily recognize specific pages as you jump around. Pictures, charts, your highlights, and the layout of each page are easy to see with Page Flip's pixel-accurate thumbnails that automatically adjust as you change your font and margin settings.

*"As an author, I love knowing that my work is presented with fluid clarity, freeing my readers from the page shuffling that can cloud and spoil the narrative," said Laura Hillenbrand, best-selling author of Unbroken. "With Page Flip, books become vastly more accessible, navigable, interactive, and enthralling."*

Page Flip works with Kindle books that have Enhanced Typesetting enabled. The feature will be delivered as part of a free, over-the-air update starting June 28 to Kindle E-readers and the free Kindle app for iOS, Android, and Fire OS.

Click here for additional details and to see Page Flip in action.

_I wonder what her page reads are like_


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Introducing Page Flip for Kindle
> 
> *"As an author, I love knowing that my work is presented with fluid clarity, freeing my readers from the page shuffling that can cloud and spoil the narrative," said Laura Hillenbrand, best-selling author of Unbroken. "With Page Flip, books become vastly more accessible, navigable, interactive, and enthralling."*
> 
> _I wonder what her page reads are like_


As a best-selling author, I'm sure she got a separate deal and may even get the assumption of full reads for every copy of her books borrowed. Assuming she's in KU to begin with.
And, she's _not_, as far as I can tell. At least not with her two biggies.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass

PaulineMRoss said:


> ...
> Your explanation assumes that this is a glitch/bug/programming error. There is also the possibility that the changes are working exactly as Amazon intended, or, more realistically, that it's 90% of the way there, but they're happy to accept some collateral damage to achieve... well, whatever it is they're trying to achieve.


This^^^


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

G.L. Snodgrass said:


> This^^^


That would still mean that it's crappy systems analysis or crappy programming. 

But I understand what you're trying to say.


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> That would still mean that it's crappy systems analysis or crappy programming.
> 
> But I understand what you're trying to say.


Or a specific set of criteria established by management. Perhaps the IT team just built the system to specs. The problem might be with the specs and not with the code.

I personally believe this is the case. The KU software is performing exactly as Amazon wants it to.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## tresero

Atlantisatheart said:


> I finally saw proof positive with my own eyes of page deletions - one of my very old books that was being read - on the 8th it had 147 pages read - 9th had 163 - just now 147 - did somebody flip or did amazon skim?
> 
> I can't tell for most of my other books because the page reads are too high, but on that one - gotcha.
> 
> I think instead of written records I'm going to start taking photographs on my iphone to see if i can catch them at it again.


I'm completely lost. This seems like normal behavior. If you had a book that had 163 in the middle of the day and then at the end had 147 that would be an issue. You are saying that over a few days, page reads varied. That is normal. Sorry, it's the truth.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

G.L. Snodgrass said:


> Or a specific set of criteria established by management. Perhaps the IT team just built the system to specs. The problem might be with the specs and not with the code.


THAT is the _definition_ of "crappy systems analysis."


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## H.C.

tresero said:


> I'm completely lost. This seems like normal behavior. If you had a book that had 163 in the middle of the day and then at the end had 147 that would be an issue. You are saying that over a few days, page reads varied. That is normal. Sorry, it's the truth.


Negative. Look back at my own "test" done last week. My page reads disappeared on command as I directed my reader on using pageflip.


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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## H.C.

Atlantisatheart said:


> It reminds me of the car scene in Ferris Bueller - when they put it up on blocks and put it in reverse to take the miles off... Our readers are reading backwards!


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## katrina46

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> It's getting quite depressing to think that my dashboard has been flat-lined for so long that I actually got excited about a 1 page read  .


Especially when you know it should probably read 300 or so, huh? We're basically giving away our books for less than half a cent.


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## Desert Rose

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> *"As an author, I love knowing that my work is presented with fluid clarity, freeing my readers from the page shuffling that can cloud and spoil the narrative," said Laura Hillenbrand, best-selling author of Unbroken. "With Page Flip, books become vastly more accessible, navigable, interactive, and enthralling."*


And yet, supposedly people aren't READING in this interactively enthralling manner. Sure, Amazon.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

katrina46 said:


> Especially when you know it should probably read 300 or so, huh? We're basically giving away our books for less than half a cent.


Indeed. I can think of only two benefits left in KU:

1) The rating bump you get on a borrow.
2) The ability to run a countdown deal while retaining the 70% royalty, even if your deal starts under 2.99.

That's it. There's nothing else.


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## #############

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Indeed. I can think of only two benefits left in KU:
> 
> 1) The rating bump you get on a borrow.
> 2) The ability to run a countdown deal while retaining the 70% royalty, even if your deal starts under 2.99.
> 
> That's it. There's nothing else.


Pretty sad but I have to agree.


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## tresero

Atlantisatheart said:


> How is it normal behaviour to have 147 pages read the first day then it went up to 163 read the next and then back DOWN to 147 again?? 147-163-147 - are you seeing a pattern here? or am I just really good at math?
> 
> You didn't design amazons page capture software did you? We'll just tot up 163pages and then snatch some away again... How is that NORMAL??
> 
> Wait, I'm getting Amazon deja vu here... Head - wall - Bang!


What went up to 163, the same day? or the next day. That's why I'm lost. If day one had 147 pages, then day 2 had 163, those are two different days.

In other words, was the same exact days page count going up the next day, or was the 147 the same and day two added 163. See the confusion.

And thanks for the insult.


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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

TwistedTales said:


> I'm still confused. Are you saying that on the report for December 8 there were 147 pages read, and then the next day the total showing for December 8 changed to 163, only to change again to 147 on the third day. So, three different totals showed against the total on the report for December 8.
> 
> If that's the case then the total for December 8 (for that book) kept changing over a period of three days.
> 
> That's retrospective adjusting, which they say they do, but I didn't know it was done by changing the reports data that way. I thought they usually put through an adjustment against payment periods.


I think you need to look at month-to-date unit sales. It doesn't matter if one person has read 10 pages or ten people have read one page, it's still a total of 10 pages read and these pages can't go down to 5 pages unless something is amiss with the page reporting.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## edwardgtalbot

Atlantisatheart said:


> That is the month to date unit sales - i record them every night - 5 am UK time.


What changes did you notice in the daily KENP numbers? Did one of the days change from an initial reading, or is there a mismatch between the daily report and the monthly report?


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Atlantisatheart said:


> That is the month to date unit sales - i record them every night - 5 am UK time.


This is what I was trying to explain to TwistedTales


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Seneca42

TwistedTales said:


> We were reasonably successful in KU. It'll be hard work for us to build sales to replace the KU reads we're giving up, but Amazon need to clean up their act. They might. They might not. But at least a sale is a sale and I don't have to sit around feeling vulnerable to Amazon's latest KU idiocy. I honestly don't see their behavior or the system improving in the near term, if anything, I suspect it could get worse.


I just pulled all four of my books out of KU. Enough is enough for me. For the past two weeks I've been getting super odd page read totals. Like 3, 6, 13 type days. Never ever had those days in the past year since I started in KU (always get over 100 page reads, but usually more like 400-500... never ever had below 100 though, unless the day was zero. Now that's all I'm getting).

After getting hosed in September during the infamous glitch, it's now happening again and I've had enough. Would I stay in a job where they randomly paid me for the work I did? Sometimes giving me $10 a day, sometimes $100, but I'd never know which? Hell no. So I can't justify staying in KU.


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## Lady Vine

TwistedTales said:


> Amazon need to clean up their act.


No, they really don't. Some aren't affected (or can't tell whether or not they are), some don't care, and the rest realise that they simply have nowhere else to go.


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## MiriamRosenbaum

Lady Vine said:


> No, they really don't. Some aren't affected (or can't tell whether or not they are), some don't care, and the rest realise that they simply have nowhere else to go.


This, sadly.

I'd love to get into KU and Select, but reading this thread quickly persuaded me not to.

Here's to hoping Amazon can fix whatever it is they've messed up.


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## Seneca42

TwistedTales said:


> Even with those numbers my business sense tells me not to build my revenue on something that can't be trusted. I've been running my own businesses for over twenty years across multiple countries so I trust my instincts more than I trust Amazon. KU may make me money in the short term, but it leaves me vulnerable to an increasingly chaotic KU model.


That's the thing though. Even the notion that it's making you (or anyone) money relies on the assumptions that;

1) The readers wouldn't purchase the books
2) The KU reads work "most" of the time properly (a big assumption/hope)
3) That supporting KU isn't ultimately cutting your own throat long term (cannibalizing paid sales and driving unit costs down beyond what's reasonable)

KU could be costing you, me or anyone money today (ie. it's not even a short term gain).

Personally I'm just following the "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." First glitch, okay. Second glitch, no explanation, naw, that's it.

There's no reason to be in KU other than pure desperation (ie. the belief that readers won't read you if you aren't in KU). It's a faith-based system, so if one doesn't trust KU, then I don't see how one can rationalize staying in it at this point (other than desperation).

Maybe I'm overly cynical at this point, but regardless of what pain I might suffer, I'm done with it.


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## GoneToWriterSanctum

TwistedTales said:


> Hmm, the question whether KU cannibalizes sales is one that usually triggers arguments. I don't know whether it does or doesn't because it depends on whether the person would have bought that book or as many books if they weren't in KU.
> 
> Setting that one aside, I do agree it's a question of confidence, not just in your books, but also your marketing skills. Readers already buy our books, but can I sell more to make up the numbers I'm losing in KU reads? I don't know is the short answer. I have no idea what I can sell through the other platforms, nor do I know if the tactics I plan to use will uplift my Amazon sales. What I do know is this isn't a "one shot" game. I get to try different tactics to see which ones work best. Eventually, much like my initial launch as an author, I'll learn what works. It's really more a question of how long it will take to recover the revenue.
> 
> As for authors choosing to stay in KU. I think calling them "desperate" is a bit harsh. I think authors stay in for all different reasons, so it can't be attributed to just one. I stayed for two years, not out of desperation, but more because I believed it was worthwhile and I did trust Amazon's reporting. They broke that with "page flip", the inability to count pages, and the woeful way they've been dealing with author's questions about their lost page reads. I might not be in their situation, but I don't want to find myself where they are in a month, a year or worse, in five years.
> 
> I don't need to stand in front of bus and be hit by it to know that's not a good place to be.


I firmly believe the answer is:
1. Write
2. Publish everywhere
3. Sell
4. Repeat

At least, with this formula, you know what you'll make from any sales you have. I like being able to see a sale, and know how much that sale brings me. I no longer trust Amazon to show page reads accurately, and haven't for some time. I never liked being exclusive, and I never liked knowing how much I would be paid for page reads.

Now, I'm not sure I would be able to tell how many page reads I really have.

Shame on Amazon. I never thought it would come down to not trusting them to report accurately.


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## Joseph Malik

Seneca42 said:


> I just pulled all four of my books out of KU. Enough is enough for me. For the past two weeks I've been getting super odd page read totals. Like 3, 6, 13 type days. Never ever had those days in the past year since I started in KU (always get over 100 page reads, but usually more like 400-500... never ever had below 100 though, unless the day was zero. Now that's all I'm getting).


This has been happening to me since launch on 30 September. I have noticed, though, that on the days when my page reads stay that low, _they start at that number and then never update throughout the day._ They'll be at that number when I wake up (I'm a compulsive 5 AM runner), and then I won't get another page read all day. I'll get sales, but no more page reads. This makes me wonder if the issue is a glitch in the coding that updates the page reads. Maybe some authors' numbers only update, say, at 1 AM, and then get skipped for the rest of the day; or maybe every time your page reads update, you're throwing dice as to whether it will update again or just leave you at that number. It would make these numbers make sense, and it would be a coding glitch that would be a pain in the ass to chase down, especially if it was intermittent. They may not even be aware of it.

I would love to see my updates with aggregating page reads on the days that I have 3, 5, 12 page reads.


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## KelliWolfe

T. M. Bilderback said:


> I firmly believe the answer is:
> 1. Write
> 2. Publish everywhere
> 3. Sell
> 4. Repeat
> 
> At least, with this formula, you know what you'll make from any sales you have. I like being able to see a sale, and know how much that sale brings me. I no longer trust Amazon to show page reads accurately, and haven't for some time. I never liked being exclusive, and I never liked knowing how much I would be paid for page reads.


What if even with the iffy page reporting you *still* make many times in KU what you were making publishing wide?

I had my Olivia Blake catalog wide for a year. I'd been publishing wide since 2011, so it's not like I didn't know how that worked. At the end of the year, the results were disappointing, to put it mildly, and steadily dropping off despite new releases because _there's almost no visibility on the other sales channels_. I put the books in KU last month and the books are already earning multiples of what they were bringing in wide. My page reads and ranks are still going up, not down.

So should I have kept doing what obviously wasn't working and hope for a miracle to save me, or did it make more business sense to put my books in KU and see how they'd do there instead?

There's no one answer here. This is what pays the bills, so my books go where the money is. If that's KU, I'll hold my nose and enroll my books in Select.


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## GoneToWriterSanctum

KelliWolfe said:


> What if even with the iffy page reporting you *still* make many times in KU what you were making publishing wide?
> 
> I had my Olivia Blake catalog wide for a year. I'd been publishing wide since 2011, so it's not like I didn't know how that worked. At the end of the year, the results were disappointing, to put it mildly, and steadily dropping off despite new releases because _there's almost no visibility on the other sales channels_. I put the books in KU last month and the books are already earning multiples of what they were bringing in wide. My page reads and ranks are still going up, not down.
> 
> So should I have kept doing what obviously wasn't working and hope for a miracle to save me, or did it make more business sense to put my books in KU and see how they'd do there instead?
> 
> There's no one answer here. This is what pays the bills, so my books go where the money is. If that's KU, I'll hold my nose and enroll my books in Select.


Kelli,

I am fully aware that many authors have come to depend on Amazon completely for their income. So, if there is no way to establish an instant replacement by going wide, I would guess that's the only option available for those authors. If you do better with your Olivia stories in KU, that's great, and I support your choice.

But, for those of us that don't write full-time, and have a day job, it might be worth the patience.

Yes, my goal is to write full-time someday, but that day isn't here yet. But I won't depend on KU to help me there. Too many of my author friends and acquaintances have been burned since July. Amazon won't admit that there's anything wrong, _and that's what bothers me the most!_ If they won't be honest about these glitches about page reads, how do we depend on anything that they tell us?

Amazon's business was built on a foundation of books. Now, it seems that they're willing to dismiss the very authors that helped them to be number one rather than admit something is wrong.

I don't feel that it's a wise business decision to depend completely on a company that isn't honest with its foundation contributors.

But, if KU makes ends meet for any of you, by all means, the decision is yours, and I wish anyone making that choice well.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

KelliWolfe said:


> What if even with the iffy page reporting you *still* make many times in KU what you were making publishing wide?
> 
> _there's almost no visibility on the other sales channels_


If KU is working for you, you gotta stay in. Me, I think I'm getting 1/2 cent per full read, with the rare registration of a full set of pages. Your second comment, in italics, is what worries me. Well, I guess I'll find out.


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## Seneca42

TwistedTales said:


> As for authors choosing to stay in KU. I think calling them "desperate" is a bit harsh. I think authors stay in for all different reasons, so it can't be attributed to just one.


I should have used a different word. Or rather, reflected that it's how I'm thinking about my situation. I'm confident that the system is broken at this point, so the only reason for me to stay around would be out of desperation (ie. stay with something that gets me "something" rather than risk not having it).

If you know you are getting ripped off (which I'm confident of in my situation now) the only reason to continue to subject myself to that is if I were desperate.  Which I'm not... so out into the non-KU world I go.


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## Seneca42

Joseph Malik said:


> This has been happening to me since launch on 30 September. I have noticed, though, that on the days when my page reads stay that low, _they start at that number and then never update throughout the day._


didn't mention it, but yes, this is the case. If I get a super low day (3 or 6 or whatever), it stays there all day. Clearly something is busted


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## tommy gun

Ummm.  Generally the belief is that Amazon is not coming clean about the problems listed previously.  Page reads for some, not all authors, maybe, is off.  For some a lot.
So Amazon has no transparency.
Amazon is potentially not demonstrating an ethical business practice.

I'll ask.  I am not saying this is happening, but I'll ask and throw gas on the fire.
How do we all know our ebook sales figures are correct?
There is no physical good being sold (like a tv).  How do we know that 50 sales are really 50 sales?  It could be 55 or 150 sales in a day.

The income would go into their coffers and never get paid out.  I know this would not make sense for such a big company in case it ever came out (Ford Pinto comes to mind).  But if there is no physical good being sold?  And ebooks are not the biggest part of the company.

Would anybody be looking at that?

Sorry I had to ask.  It takes paranoia to an extreme level I think......  But who knows what their sales numbers really are.


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## AuthorX

tommy gun said:


> Ummm. Generally the belief is that Amazon is not coming clean about the problems listed previously. Page reads for some, not all authors, maybe, is off. For some a lot.
> So Amazon has no transparency.
> Amazon is potentially not demonstrating an ethical business practice.
> 
> I'll ask. I am not saying this is happening, but I'll ask and throw gas on the fire.
> How do we all know our ebook sales figures are correct?
> There is no physical good being sold (like a tv). How do we know that 50 sales are really 50 sales? It could be 55 or 150 sales in a day.
> 
> The income would go into their coffers and never get paid out. I know this would not make sense for such a big company in case it ever came out (Ford Pinto comes to mind). But if there is no physical good being sold? And ebooks are not the biggest part of the company.
> 
> Would anybody be looking at that?
> 
> Sorry I had to ask. It takes paranoia to an extreme level I think...... But who knows what their sales numbers really are.


No one fears that their sales are off because they can be easily quantified. Simply go to Amazon and buy your book 1 time or as many times as you'd like. The sales will appear on your dashboard.

Borrows used to be somewhat quantified because you could see your own borrow, and they actually told you how many people were borrowing it (past 10%)...

The problem now is that we have no idea how many people are borrowing our books, and people are running tests and NOT all of their pagereads are getting tallied. Amazon has offered no explanation as to why we can borrow a 400 KENPC book, flip through the entire thing, and somehow have many less pages (and often only 1) on our dash. It's shocking that Amazon is not acknowledging an issue that is very easy to replicate.


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## KelliWolfe

With a sale, there is an external record of the transaction that can be used for verification. With the page reads, the only record of the transactions are held by Amazon. To paraphrase Stalin, it doesn't matter who reads the pages. All that matters is who counts the page reads.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

tommy gun said:


> How do we all know our ebook sales figures are correct?


Once one set of reports is shown dubious, everything comes under question. I asked your question probably 50 pages ago in this thread.

Sales manipulation is possible but less likely, as you can always get a friend or acquaintance to do a straw purchase for you, and then you can see if it appears on your orders graph (and, eventually, in the month-to-date report). Of course, if you're a big seller, such a test would be hard to detect and, if you're losing sales, you might never know.

And BTW, AuthorX, you can only ever buy your e-book once. The system prevents you from buying it again. (Unless this has really recently changed. Nope--just tried it, and the system wouldn't let me.)


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## KelliWolfe

You can delete the book from your account and repurchase it.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

KelliWolfe said:


> You can delete the book from your account and repurchase it.


Yes, I suppose you can do that. I did it myself, once, trying to get a newer version of my text (before I knew about asking for the "push"). Of course, if I were manipulating sales, I would certainly write the code to not fiddle sales going back to the author/publisher him/her/itself. Of course, if I were writing the Kindle code, I'd spend two bytes for a high-water-mark read point, so that if someone read to page 240 and backed up to the TOC before exiting, the read would count as 240 and not 1. But then, I'm silly that way.


----------



## David VanDyke

For those debating the whole cannibalization question, it's pretty easy to settle as a individual, within your own book list.

When you went into KU, did the money earned on that book and/or that series increase or decrease?

All the theorizing and reasoning in the world doesn't matter. Only the empirical matters. Do you make more within KU or more out of it? It should be easy to compare as long as you're matching apples to apples (your own identical books), and you have all the data.


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## H.C.

David VanDyke said:


> For those debating the whole cannibalization question, it's pretty easy to settle as a individual, within your own book list.
> 
> When you went into KU, did the money earned on that book and/or that series increase or decrease?
> 
> All the theorizing and reasoning in the world doesn't matter. Only the empirical matters. Do you make more within KU or more out of it? It should be easy to compare as long as you're matching apples to apples (your own identical books), and you have all the data.


The question is more about TOS not just $. Are we getting dupped out of our agreement?


----------



## Seneca42

tommy gun said:


> Sorry I had to ask. It takes paranoia to an extreme level I think...... But who knows what their sales numbers really are.


I honestly don't think they want KU to be broken. This is turning into a big problem that they don't want in my opinion. If you look at the top free lists for various categories, it used to have a ton of KU titles, now hardly any of them are in KU.

People are leaving the program in my guestimation.

This recent glitch I'm experiencing I think is probably caused by the same thing as in September. I think they are trying to fight scammers, making modifications to their system/algos to do so, and breaking the system for random authors at random times. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

I believe all these issues are them combating scammers (which is not an issue with the direct sales side of the business).

But yes, you are right, they technically could hide sales on the direct side. I still trust them on that side of the business though. I think in the end they are going to have to shut down KU because they don't seem to be able to stop the scammers without blowing things up for authors.


----------



## H.C.

It's not that difficult to stop them. Just takes more eyes on submitted work. The price would be infintesimal compared with how much they spend/loss currently.


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## PearlEarringLady

Seneca42 said:


> After getting hosed in September during the infamous glitch, it's now happening again and I've had enough.


This is an interesting comment. So, if you don't mind my asking, did you have the problem in September with one or more books, which then recovered and have hit the problem again? Or was there no recovery and this is another book or set of books? Just trying to get a handle on exactly how people have been affected.


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## 9 Diamonds

Seneca42 said:


> I honestly don't think they want KU to be broken. This is turning into a big problem that they don't want in my opinion. If you look at the top free lists for various categories, it used to have a ton of KU titles, now hardly any of them are in KU.
> 
> People are leaving the program in my guestimation.


Oh yes indeed.


----------



## Guest

Herefortheride said:


> The question is more about TOS not just $. Are we getting dupped out of our agreement?


100 percent we are.

We know for a FACT if a reader borrows our book and reads it in Pageflip, we do not get paid, EVEN THOUGH THEY READ THE BOOK.

Also, if a reader reads to the end of the book and then goes back to the first page, we do not get paid, EVEN THOUGH THEY READ THE BOOK.

This will be affecting even the bestsellers. This is just a little decoration at the front of the garden of Amazon screwing us over. The discrepancy in reporting for some authors is so high that it can't have anything to do with this. In many situations, authors will release a book and then watch as it zooms up the charts logging many sales, but almost nothing in terms of page reads.

Without an admission from Amazon and promise to make amends, this is nothing short of theft outright. On top of the fact they are already stealing from us.


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## KelliWolfe

Kindle Unlimited Eligible  (1,462,401)  60 of the top 100 paid books in the store are in KU. 38 of the top 100 free books in the store are in KU.

It's very possible there's a seasonal dropoff in free days right now because people are waiting until closer to the holidays to run promotions. Right now people tend to be very busy with shopping and getting ready for guests and finishing up the school term, etc. They don't have as much time to read, but in a couple of weeks tons of people will be on vacation.


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## 5ngela

ShaneJeffery said:


> 100 percent we are.
> 
> We know for a FACT if a reader borrows our book and reads it in Pageflip, we do not get paid, EVEN THOUGH THEY READ THE BOOK.
> 
> Also, if a reader reads to the end of the book and then goes back to the first page, we do not get paid, EVEN THOUGH THEY READ THE BOOK.
> 
> This will be affecting even the bestsellers. This is just a little decoration at the front of the garden of Amazon screwing us over. The discrepancy in reporting for some authors is so high that it can't have anything to do with this. In many situations, authors will release a book and then watch as it zooms up the charts logging many sales, but almost nothing in terms of page reads.
> 
> Without an admission from Amazon and promise to make amends, this is nothing short of theft outright. On top of the fact they are already stealing from us.


I don't know whether it's true or not because I am not author. But from now on, I won't go back to the first page after I finished the story. Hope that's help because I really like KU despite hating the exclusivity part.


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## Seneca42

PaulineMRoss said:


> This is an interesting comment. So, if you don't mind my asking, did you have the problem in September with one or more books, which then recovered and have hit the problem again? Or was there no recovery and this is another book or set of books? Just trying to get a handle on exactly how people have been affected.


Last two weeks of Sept my KU reads went to 0. In October they picked back up and were fine ever since (in fact, had my best KU month ever in October). Things were normal until two weeks ago when they dropped to 80'ish a day, then the last week to 16'ish a day. Yesterday was 3 ku page reads 

So there most definitely a recover in October and November... then crash in December.


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## Seneca42

KelliWolfe said:


> Kindle Unlimited Eligible (1,462,401) 60 of the top 100 paid books in the store are in KU. 38 of the top 100 free books in the store are in KU.
> vacation.


Yes. In the paid category the KU presence has gone UP. I ascribe this to many more Amazon imprints being there now. As well as big authors being able to be in KU without exclusivity (yes, amazon exempts some authors from exclusivity).

I checked the top 100 free scifi category the other day. Of 100 books, 17 were in KU.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Seneca42 said:


> As well as big authors being able to be in KU without exclusivity (yes, amazon exempts some authors from exclusivity).


I also suspect some big-name authors are granted full read counts automatically, on every borrow. If so, there's no wonder that they're not complaining about the current situation.


----------



## Joseph Malik

Seneca42 said:


> didn't mention it, but yes, this is the case. If I get a super low day (3 or 6 or whatever), it stays there all day. Clearly something is busted


Apparently, people read 515 pages of my book somewhere between 1200 and 0430 today but suddenly stopped reading. KENP have been stuck for 3 hours.

"Welp, 3 AM. Guess I better quit reading and get ready for work." Really?


----------



## Seneca42

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I also suspect some big-name authors are granted full read counts automatically, on every borrow. If so, there's no wonder that they're not complaining about the current situation.


Heck, I'll go one further. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon pays them the equivalent of the direct purchase price per borrow (making it 100% painless for them to list in KU). It makes good business sense to do so, you lose money on those authors, but net-net you still grow the subscriber base. And you really stick it to the traditional publishers.

Also sticking it hard to the indies mind you, but it doesn't seem like they care.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Seneca42 said:


> Yes. In the paid category the KU presence has gone UP. I ascribe this to many more Amazon imprints being there now. As well as big authors being able to be in KU without exclusivity (yes, amazon exempts some authors from exclusivity).
> 
> I checked the top 100 free scifi category the other day. Of 100 books, 17 were in KU.


Amazon worked out a deal for a different pay scale for some trade pubbed authors to be in KU for a set amount of money (and that's honestly very few authors). What self-pubbed authors are in KU without being exclusive?


----------



## tresero

Seneca42 said:


> Yes. In the paid category the KU presence has gone UP. I ascribe this to many more Amazon imprints being there now. As well as big authors being able to be in KU without exclusivity (yes, amazon exempts some authors from exclusivity).
> 
> I checked the top 100 free scifi category the other day. Of 100 books, 17 were in KU.


Just to be fair, KU is very genre driven. I had a few of my sci-fi shorts in KU and very few reads. My romance pen averages 1,000,000 pages a month. My romance readers are almost all in KU, even though they would buy if a book is not in KU. I did a survey of my reader list, it's way, way back in this thread, but if you find it, it may give you some idea of percentages (in romance at least).


----------



## MiriamRosenbaum

KelliWolfe said:


> To paraphrase Stalin, it doesn't matter who reads the pages. All that matters is who counts the page reads.


That's horrifying, brilliant, and gut-wrenchingly funny at the same time!   

You win the internets.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Seneca42 said:


> So there most definitely a recover in October and November... then crash in December.


Fascinating - thanks. That's possibly the first time I've seen that pattern.


----------



## Seneca42

PaulineMRoss said:


> Fascinating - thanks. That's possibly the first time I've seen that pattern.


If you want more data. The one anomaly over the past two weeks is that one day had 1890 page reads. The kicker? It was on a box set that I delisted two months ago (but which was still in KU until end of Dec).

So explain to me how an offering no longer on Amazon somehow got 1890 page reads in one day?

The best explanation someone thought up was that someone read the box set while disconnected from the internet, then when they reconnected their kindle (months later?) the reads suddenly got recorded. But even that makes no sense as each book is about 420-460 KU reads... it's a three-book box set... even if someone could read all three books in one day, it still doesn't add up to 1890. Btw, that box set has had zero KU reads since I delisted it (other than this one 1890 day).

As I say, I'm done trying to understand KU.

Also, just for people's interest. I unenrolled and let customer support know why and ask they confirm my unenrollment (just want an erecord in case they don't unenroll me and try to trap me for another term). An Executive Customer Response agent emailed back (first time I've ever had that happen - clearly my email got bumped up the chain of command). They just said "yes you're unenrolled. Thanks for doing business with amazon".

hahaha. Completely ignored / did not address, any of the issues I listed as reasons why I was leaving. Something is clearly fubar for my contact to get bounced up to ECR, and then for ECR to basically say "thanks, bye."

The email did put my mind at ease though. KU (for me) is unusable. So really, I have zero choice but to move on from it.


----------



## Becca Mills

Seneca42 said:


> If you want more data. The one anomaly over the past two weeks is that one day had 1890 page reads. The kicker? It was on a box set that I delisted two months ago (but which was still in KU until end of Dec).
> 
> So explain to me how an offering no longer on Amazon somehow got 1890 page reads in one day?


As I understand it, anyone who's borrowed your book through KU keeps it in their KU library until they return it, even if you take the book out of KU in the meantime. So I suppose you could continue to get reads on this set for months to come. I know I have a couple books in my KU library that have been there for months.


----------



## tresero

Becca Mills said:


> As I understand it, anyone who's borrowed your book through KU keeps it in their KU library until they return it, even if you take the book out of KU in the meantime. So I suppose you could continue to get reads on this set for months to come. I know I have a couple books in my KU library that have been there for months.


That is absolutely the case.


----------



## Allyson J.

I have a romance pen name series that--this enrollment term--saw no page reads, even when I ran promos. We're talking since September. Flatline. $0. So, fed up with no longer making any money from the series, I clicked not to re-enroll in KU, which is set to expire in a few days. Now, out of nowhere, no promos, no price change, nothing, I'm getting FULL reads.


ETA: Back in Sept, I had lots of page reads on a book that hadn't been in KU since 2014. It does happen.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Slightly off-topic: I promised earlier in this thread that I would let you folks know how my Bargain Booksy promo for The Dinosaur Chronicles went (an SF promo is currently $35).

Long story short: For sales, I only made it about 1/5 of the way to breaking even. I also _think_ I got some KU borrows (based on rating bumps), but there's no sure way to tell, unless someone leaves a review and mentions the promo. KENPC page counts are currently flatlined.

So, it didn't work out for me. The BB folks were easy to work with, however, and happy to answer questions. Other folks have reported good results for their oeuvres. Also, your promo ad stays on the site for at least several days (even weeks?) after your scheduled promo day, so it is possible to get residual interest in a work even after it comes off the bargain price.

And speaking of price:

I've set the price for TDC to 3.95, up from the 2.99 it had been before the promo. I'm doing this in anticipation of it falling out of KU on the 15th. Many have speculated that a "more professional" price level might generate interest in works otherwise taken as KU throwaways. (Heck, if that's the case, maybe I should set it at $5.95.  )

Even with the disappointing BB promo, I can still hope to get a review or two, perhaps, and make the book qualify for other promos.

We'll see.


----------



## 39416

I really didn't want to believe the whole Page Flip thing, but I have to now agree, it's real. I've been in KU a while, with multiple books, and am prawny enough that when someone borrowed one of them, between the graphs I could pretty much figure out how far they got in the read and how long it took them. They almost always went to the end of the book, and quickly. I am now experimenting with AMS ads and I got 7 borrows of my books last week that stuck there for the week at very low page counts. I've never really experienced that before. It's not universal across all my books, others still get borrowed and do the full/fast thing. So I kind of think it's the luck of the draw. If you get a reader who reads it in Page Flip and after finishing it goes back to some point in the beginning of the book, you're screwed. If they read it without Page Flip you're fine. Never thought I'd be happy to be a prawn but when I look at the page reporting I think is missing on my little venture, I can only imagine how it must feel to the big sellers.


----------



## RightHoJeeves

My takeaway from this thread is that KU is not for me. I don't want to try build a business on something that can apparently not deliver what it says, and offers no avenue of recompense when things go wrong. Screw that.


----------



## Seneca42

RightHoJeeves said:


> My takeaway from this thread is that KU is not for me. I don't want to try build a business on something that can apparently not deliver what it says, and offers no avenue of recompense when things go wrong. Screw that.


well, technically Amazon would say things never go wrong  That's why some are so mad. It's not the lost revenue, more that Amazon refuses to acknowledge there is any lost revenue or issues with page reads.

The most disheartening thing throughout all this has been their refusal to admit anything is wrong. It feels like they are actively covering the problem up rather than being honest and dealing with it openly... which is surprising because there are tons of case studies that say the worst thing a corporation can do is cover things up (it only makes the problem 100 times worse in the long run).


----------



## KelliWolfe

Yes, but in the dictionary under _arrogance_, there's a picture of Amazon's corporate HQ. They know that they're too big to have to care. This is a problem that impacts a tiny number of vendors, and Amazon is notorious for screwing over their vendors pretty much on a whim. It's not a customer-facing issue. We're not customers. We're just widget suppliers.


----------



## Colin

KelliWolfe said:


> ... We're just widget suppliers.


Are short story writers midget widget suppliers?

Just a thought. I'll go away now.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Seneca42 said:


> The most disheartening thing throughout all this has been their refusal to admit anything is wrong. It feels like they are actively covering the problem up rather than being honest and dealing with it openly... which is surprising because there are tons of case studies that say the worst thing a corporation can do is cover things up (it only makes the problem 100 times worse in the long run).


I can actually understand why they would do this. Admitting to an error in calculating how much a supplier should be paid is a whole can of worms that I'm sure their legal department would rather not open. So even if it IS an error (and we don't know that it is), admitting it would be crazy.

The other reason for secrecy is if (as I suspect) the intent of these changes is to clamp down on scammers. No point doing that if you publicise what you're doing and the methods used, because the scammers will be implementing workarounds within hours.

What disheartens ME is the lack of any obvious pattern to these issues. It's all seemingly random, which is scary. Plus, we've seen a whole raft of issues, like free ranking and also-bought weirdness, as well as loss of pages read, and we're no nearer to knowing what exactly is going on or why. No one appears to be compiling data systematically, so we don't even know basic things like what proportion of authors has been affected. Very few people are sharing detailed numbers. So we're just as much in the dark as we were when this ginormous thread started.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Seneca42

PaulineMRoss said:


> I can actually understand why they would do this. Admitting to an error in calculating how much a supplier should be paid is a whole can of worms that I'm sure their legal department would rather not open. So even if it IS an error (and we don't know that it is), admitting it would be crazy.
> 
> The other reason for secrecy is if (as I suspect) the intent of these changes is to clamp down on scammers. No point doing that if you publicise what you're doing and the methods used, because the scammers will be implementing workarounds within hours.


This doesn't make sense to me though. It cannot be that hard to identify when an author has been impacted and to first acknowledge it and secondly update them when whatever happened to their account has been rectified. The fine print in the KU contract I'm sure protects Amazon legally. Given the program is optional, KU can hide behind legalise by saying "Sometimes things will break, you can't sue us for that. It's part of the risk of being in KU. If you aren't prepared to take that risk, don't join KU."

The reason I think (obviously purely a guess) why they refuse to admit to an author when they've been impacted are:

1) I don't think they know.  I don't think the system is competent enough for them to see from the data "oh yep, this person was clearly impacted." And like any business, if they can't prove it (to themselves) they can't authorize a corrective action.

2) Whoever is in charge of KU is probably trying to patch the leaks in the boat as fast as they can in hopes that it doesn't rise up to the point where C-level execs ask what the heck is going on. Someone probably got massively chewed out when the story broke of the guy who made $3M scamming KU and so the orders were sent down "Fix it at any cost."... now in attempting to do that, KU is breaking in other ways. But whoever is in charge of the fix likely isn't going to tell the bosses that until so many authors are bailing that they can't hide it any longer.

I mean, all speculation and wide conjecture, I'll admit. But it's what makes sense to me. Because the logical thing to do would be to admit when an author(s) is impacted to maintain a positive relationship with said author(s).


----------



## eroticatorium

Allyson J. said:


> I have a romance pen name series that--this enrollment term--saw no page reads, even when I ran promos. We're talking since September. Flatline. $0. So, fed up with no longer making any money from the series, I clicked not to re-enroll in KU, which is set to expire in a few days. Now, out of nowhere, no promos, no price change, nothing, I'm getting FULL reads.
> 
> ETA: Back in Sept, I had lots of page reads on a book that hadn't been in KU since 2014. It does happen.


I've noticed that too. The best way to stimulate page reads is to unenroll a book from KU and wait for the deadline to approach. In the last two weeks or so, page reads will appear no matter how terrible your rank is. I called shenanigans on this some time ago, but I couldn't find my broom so nothing ever came of it.


----------



## Anarchist

PaulineMRoss said:


> I can actually understand why they would do this. Admitting to an error in calculating how much a supplier should be paid is a whole can of worms that I'm sure their legal department would rather not open. So even if it IS an error (and we don't know that it is), admitting it would be crazy.


This.

All day, this.

In addition to maximizing shareholder value, a publicly-traded company must mitigate its potential liability. Admitting that the problems in this thread exist would be inconsistent with that priority.

Amazon should be asking itself, "What's the worst possible outcome if we deny, deny, deny, and it's later revealed that we're at fault?"

Class action? No.

Mass exodus of top-selling authors? Not likely.

p*ssed off customers? C'mon. The very idea is laughable.

The worst that can happen is a few lawsuits. Because let's be honest... unless an author can *PROVE beyond a doubt* that h/she is owed thousands of dollars (and this thread is clear evidence that doing so would be difficult), the number of lawsuits with a chance in hell of winning would be minimal.

So in light of the above, why on earth would Amazon publicly admit to the problems highlighted in this thread?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Anarchist said:


> This.
> 
> All day, this.
> 
> In addition to maximizing shareholder value, a publicly-traded company must mitigate its potential liability. Admitting that the problems in this thread exist would be inconsistent with that priority.
> 
> Amazon should be asking itself, "What's the worst possible outcome if we deny, deny, deny, and it's later revealed that we're at fault?"
> 
> Class action? No.
> 
> Mass exodus of top-selling authors? Not likely.
> 
> p*ssed off customers? C'mon. The very idea is laughable.
> 
> The worst that can happen is a few lawsuits. Because let's be honest... unless an author can *PROVE beyond a doubt* that h/she is owed thousands of dollars (and this thread is clear evidence that doing so would be difficult), the number of lawsuits with a chance in hell of winning would be minimal.
> 
> So in light of the above, why on earth would Amazon publicly admit to the problems highlighted in this thread?


Perhaps loss of trust in Amazon would make people think twice. Trust is like innocence and virginity - once it's gone, it's gone for good


----------



## Seneca42

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Perhaps loss of trust in Amazon would make people think twice. Trust is like innocence and virginity - once it's gone, it's gone for good


This.

Many businesses behave ethically not because they want to, but because its SMART business. To previous post and shareholders. If a company gets caught ripping off their employees or covering up dirt, shareholders wonder "If they were willing to do that, what else are they willing to cover up? Just how much risk am I exposed to here that I don't know about."

I know this thread is filled with "it makes good business sense to cover it up"... but no, it doesn't, not in the least.

The one time where a company can run the risk is if they are really really really sure they won't get caught AND they are so big that even if they do customers and vendors can't go anywhere else. Which may be the case here.

But it's bad business sense.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## TheLass

Atlantisatheart said:


> Oh dear - did my UK sense of humour get lost in translation again?
> 
> Thanks for interpreting, Ann.


  You didn't have enough smilies.


----------



## TellNotShow

Colin said:


> Are short story writers midget widget suppliers?
> 
> Just a thought. I'll go away now.


Yes. And if they supply 1-9 short stories, they're single digit midget widget suppliers.


----------



## rickblackmon

I have 80+ books in KU, reads have been down since September 23, but have been trending up until today. Not one page read and the only sale I had was one I bought myself to see if was working. Back in Sept and Oct, I reported it to zon and I have all of the form letters in my file to show for it. I am ready to declare them the winner and give it up.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Atlantisatheart said:


> Oh dear - did my UK sense of humour get lost in translation again?


The question is, is it still satire if it's the truth?


----------



## smw

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> The question is, is it still satire if it's the truth?


One could very easily argue that it isn't really satire if it *isn't* true.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

smw said:


> One could very easily argue that it isn't really satire if it *isn't* true.


I had to think twice before understanding your point.

That's cold.


----------



## Joseph Malik

I really think it's an updating glitch. 

I've been stuck at 374 page reads since 5 AM, but around noon today I jumped ~100,000 in overall rank, yet it's still showing no sales. 

I think we're getting the sales and reads but it's intermittently not updating our ledgers throughout the day, and if an entire day goes by without your numbers updating, I think you just lose, and it starts again at 0 reads and 0 sales for the next day at 0001 hrs. Then, maybe it will update you correctly throughout the day tomorrow, maybe it won't.


----------



## Cherise

TellNotShow said:


> Yes. And if they supply 1-9 short stories, they're single digit midget widget suppliers.


*Belly laugh!*


----------



## Becca Mills

smw said:


> One could very easily argue that it isn't really satire if it *isn't* true.


Indeed, the best satire is 103% of the truth.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Colin

TellNotShow said:


> Yes. And if they supply 1-9 short stories, they're single digit midget widget suppliers.


So I guess if they type their short stories using the popular two fingered technique, that would make them double digit single digit midget widget suppliers.


----------



## Lydniz

Atlantisatheart said:


> This is like Schrodinger's cat all over again. I'll just twiddle my thumbs, nobody will notice.
> 
> Joke! (Just to be on the safe side.)


That makes you a fidget midget widget supplier.


----------



## Colin

Lydniz said:


> That makes you a fidget midget widget supplier.


There's nothing wrong with legit fidget midget widget suppliers. It's the non-legit fidget midget widget suppliers who are scamming the system and who are probably responsible for the Amazon crackdown that is hurting legit fidget midget widget suppliers - and others.

Nearly back on topic!


----------



## Lydniz

Colin said:


> There's nothing wrong with legit fidget midget widget suppliers. It's the non-legit fidget midget widget suppliers who are scamming the system and who are probably responsible for the Amazon crackdown that is hurting legit fidget midget widget suppliers - and others.
> 
> Nearly back on topic!


Well if the non-legit fidget midget widget suppliers would have the decency to _fugit_, then that would allow the legit fidget midget widget suppliers to budget promos once again.

OK, better stop before I get hacked to death by an angry mob.


----------



## Colin

Lydniz said:


> OK, better stop before I get hacked to death by an angry mob.


Or an angry mod...


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## SpringFever

Atlantisatheart said:


> Did I mention I'm psychic - or psychotic... anyway, here goes...
> 
> Problem? What problem?
> 
> Us? Noooo... It's you... You're not writing enough...
> 
> It's seasonal... school holidays... the election... black friday... Christmas...
> 
> It's the customer - they're reading habits have changed. Yes, all of them at once.
> 
> Page flip? Working as intended.
> Scammers? We'll have to get back to you on that.
> 
> Breach of contract? How many books would you like us to release immediately?
> 
> We see nothing wrong on our end


I think you've covered every reply Amazon has made since this began. I've come to the conclusion they either truly don't know there's a problem (worrying), or they don't care, or there was a KU 3, and they never told us.

I started to notice a shift in August, with also boughts not giving the same boost as before. Over the next two or three months, whatever else they changed crept it. I don't believe it's page flip, because not everyone has seen the same drop.

What I do believe is it's here to stay and you have to make your decisions based on what you see in your own dashboard. The field is no longer level.

The good news... When KU 4 comes along, none of this will matter. (sarcasm)


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

SpringFever said:


> I've come to the conclusion they either truly don't know there's a problem


They know. Anyone who can walk and breathe at the same time would know.


----------



## Chrissy

Did you get a sense that Amazon is still working on/looking for a fix?


----------



## RubyMadden

Chrissy said:


> Did you get a sense that Amazon is still working on/looking for a fix?


Yes, very much so.


----------



## Lydniz

I hereby resolve never ever to make another funny on any thread ever. Because that's just naughty.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks, posts which do not encourage conversation here but send traffic to a member's blog are not allowed here EXCEPT in the Book Bazaar or in the "Have You Posted to Your Blog Lately" thread. We ask that, at the least, an excerpt/synopsis be posted in the thread so that members do not have to leave the thread in order to discuss the topic.

Thank you. 

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Hey, folks--

Clean up in aisle 7!

Locking while we discuss and do some mopping up.

_EDIT: OK, folks, I've removed some posts that, over time, were taking this thread in the wrong direction, including one that took people to an outside link. A reminder that we ask for the conversation to take place here.

PM me if you have any questions. /edit_

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Laran Mithras

Amazon isn't aware? LMAO. No business fields so many complaints, adjusts accounts when caught, and then suddenly isn't aware.

*Amazon is aware.* They choose to do nothing about it because they're making more money and there's not a thing any of us can do about it.

I have canceled renewal on my 80 books. Many have already come off. I even put a note on my author's page for my bio stating all my books were coming off. Down to less than half titles in KU, my page reads have returned to the formerly "bad" level (half normal) instead of the "ridiculous" level of 1/6th normal. No reason to stay in KU. My sales are up across almost all my titles, but page reads are 1/6th of what they were 4 months ago in the titles still remaining in KU (except for the last two days)?

The "pity" spike from Amazon does not fool me to stay in. I'll rely on real sales.


----------



## Joseph Malik

637 reads at 0500 this morning. No more reads at all today. 3 click-thrus on my ad and one sale, but not a single page read. Not one.

I'm telling you, page read updates are not coming through.


----------



## dragontucker

Just wanted to report some good news!!

I just had my all time highest KU reads day ever  It's not much for many here. But....so far I am at 1045 page reads! I am kinda thrilled. Shows me that KU seems to be working. I just had a new release like 10 days ago so that has a lot to do with it. Guess my book reads are stacking on top of each other. This is book 3 of my series  Just wanted to share the good news! Maybe things are changing for the better


----------



## AlecHutson

Congrats, Dragontucker!

I'll pile on to the 'good news' tangent regarding KDP reads. I released my first book 11 days ago, an epic fantasy. I've done no promotion or marketing outside of my social media posts, but I've been very pleased with my KDP reads, especially given that, since I'm a brand-new author, I had absolutely no expectations going in. But I've averaged 1900 reads a day since launch, with a high of 4100 two days ago. Maybe I'm getting credited for someone else's reads? Now I just wish a few of those read-throughs would turn into reviews so I could start using the good promotion sites!


----------



## dragontucker

AlecHutson said:


> Congrats, Dragontucker!
> 
> I'll pile on to the 'good news' tangent regarding KDP reads. I released my first book 11 days ago, an epic fantasy. I've done no promotion or marketing outside of my social media posts, but I've been very pleased with my KDP reads, especially given that, since I'm a brand-new author, I had absolutely no expectations going in. But I've averaged 1900 reads a day since launch, with a high of 4100 two days ago. Maybe I'm getting credited for someone else's reads? Now I just wish a few of those read-throughs would turn into reviews so I could start using the good promotion sites!


Wow! You should feel really happy. That has to be really motivating considering it's your first book. I wish I was getting those sort of page read numbers. Congrats and thanks for the congrats too


----------



## dragontucker

Jeff Tanyard said:


> Congratulations, dragontucker.


Thank you. I appreciate it


----------



## RubyMadden

A follow-up to those interested in the outcome of my call with Executive KDP Customer Care. *My website and blog is in my profile signature*. I'll have the BLOG up later. Cheerio!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

RubyMadden said:


> A follow-up to those interested in the outcome of my call with Executive KDP Customer Care. *My website and blog is in my profile signature*. I'll have the BLOG up later. Cheerio!


Ruby, looking forward to your post here with a brief summation about the call, and then giving members the option to go to the blog to read more... As I said earlier, directing people to your website or blog rather than having the conversation here is not how we like to do things.

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Kwrite

As someone about to publish their first book, I've been following this thread closely. I'm currently signing up with all of the vendors due to the KU issue, but originally planned to sign up for KU. I do hope Ruby comes back to report what she learned today.


----------



## RubyMadden

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Ruby, looking forward to your post here with a brief summation about the call, and then giving members the option to go to the blog to read more... As I said earlier, directing people to your website or blog rather than having the conversation here is not how we like to do things.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Betsy
> KB Mod


True, and with all due respect - this issue affects more than just members of the forum. However, some members continue to take this thread outside of the scope intended.

If you have issue with this, than feel free to delete my profile. 
Happy Holidays!

Ruby

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Betsy the Quilter

RubyMadden said:


> True, and with all due respect - this issue affects more than just members of the forum. However, some members continue to take this thread outside of the scope intended.
> 
> If you have issue with this, than feel free to delete my profile.
> Happy Holidays!
> 
> Ruby


Ruby,

I completely agree about the scope of the problem...I don't see an issue with you having a blog entry and discussing the issue here, just as you've been doing. The purpose of the Writers' Cafe is to have discussions here, not to drive traffic elsewhere. If you are not comfortable following forum rules, this is not the place for you. Let me know.

As for staying on topic, in a thread that has gone on as long as this has, things will occasionally veer off topic. It seems to me that it's still generally on course and our recent cleanup has helped keep it there. If you want to discuss our moderation of this thread, please PM me so as to help keep the thread on topic, which I know you want.

Betsy


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## H.C.

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Ruby,
> 
> I completely agree about the scope of the problem...I don't see an issue with you having a blog entry and discussing the issue here, just as you've been doing. The purpose of the Writers' Cafe is to have discussions here, not to drive traffic elsewhere. If you are not comfortable following forum rules, this is not the place for you. Let me know.
> 
> As for staying on topic, in a thread that has gone on as long as this has, things will occasionally veer off topic. It seems to me that it's still generally on course and our recent cleanup has helped keep it there. If you want to discuss our moderation of this thread, please PM me so as to help keep the thread on topic, which I know you want.
> 
> Betsy


On top of that I visited her blog and she hasn't even made the post yet. There is something about "tune in later". Why tell us to check out the issue if you haven't even wrote the post yet?


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## jason2505

Herefortheride said:


> On top of that I visited her blog and she hasn't even made the post yet. There is something about "tune in later". Why tell us to check out the issue if you haven't even wrote the post yet?


Give her a break. You dont know how long the post is and I guess she wants to have it done well. Appreciate that she shares her insights


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## Betsy the Quilter

Folks, 

Let's not make this thread about a member. Let's stay on topic. Thanks.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Guest

I'd like to continue. I want to get to the bottom of this mess like we all do. I am sincerely happy for those who have not been affected... it's great, then maybe it isn't universal which gives me hope.

I don't know if said person has closed their account, nor at this point do I care that much... but if they are around, please, consider the idea of sharing your call (at least for those who championed you before). Help your fellow creatives so we can move the debate forward... please?

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## SpringFever

Andrew Murray said:


> True, and it's so sad.
> I hope the op of the news comes back and shares. It would be of great service to us all. I'll remain skeptical of course... but I can tell you one thing, if I found out the issue and the solution... I would shout it from the rooftops. I would even share it with my enemies. Why? Because it's good karma to do so.


So much this! We're in it together.

This thread has been all about sharing what works, what might work, it's been collaborative. And now it's not?

Now we have to join a new tribe to find the answers? I love this forum, and the help everyone so generously, and freely, gives. If everyone with answers tried to pull people away, it would crumble.

#Sharingiscaring


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## Seneca42

fyi post is up. 

My reading of it was basically Amazon continuing to say they see no issues on their end. Truly mind boggling. 

Thank you ruby for sharing. Really put my mind at ease about leaving KU.


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## 9 Diamonds

Thank you for sharing all of that, Ruby. It's very helpful and close to what I've experienced and am doing too.


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## NAK Baldron

1,016 words. Loads of edits too. No blog post today.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## PhoenixS

While I appreciate the time it took to put together the post, I'm not sure what new and interesting light it sheds on the issue. Most of us have been in touch with ECR. We talk, they listen, then they assert everything is fine. And they use the exact same scripted language to assure us it is. This is exactly what each of us who've contacted KDP Support or ECR have been told verbally or in writing going back 100 pages now:


> The Executive KDP rep expressed that Amazon has been doing ongoing audits to see if they can find any system-wide issues that might be creating an unidentified problem. And, as many have shared with us, thus far � they haven�t come across anything that seems off or wrong.


Nothing new. They don't move off the playbook.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

PhoenixS said:


> Nothing new. They don't move off the playbook.


And it's all a joke. _The Dinosaur Chronicles_ goes out of KU at midnight Pacific time (tonight/this a.m.) and yesterday (the 15th) and today I've already gotten KU reads after 18 days of zip.

Sorry; this won't change my mind. Already looking at D2D and Smashwords TOSes. Leaning toward Smashwords because they also have an in-house bookstore. If anyone here cares to offer comment or suggestion on SW vs. D2D, I'll be happy to listen. (If this is another thread, pls. direct me.)


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## PhoenixS

**************


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## Becca Mills

I don't think the chart in the blog post supports the conclusions Ruby Madden draws here:



> Many authors have speculated that the KU Program is failing, with readership slipping and KU members cancelling their subscriptions. This is where I have to step in and from anyalyzing the DATA, quite the opposite was true through August 2016, the KU program was constantly growing. But since September, it has been eroding.
> 
> So, if we take the # of pages read in November and compare against August, we can get a rate of overall erosion --> 13%.


While it's true that KU page-reads _seem _to have declined recently, this appearance might just be a result of picking a high point from which to start measuring. The chart Ruby cites shows steady growth of KU page-reads/day between August 2014 and January 2016, when reads hit a high of 117.5 million. Since that point, reads/day have bounced around between that figure and about 100 million. August 2016 represents the second highest number of reads/day on record (111.7 million), which makes the November 2016 figure, 101.1 million, seem markedly lower, but that November figure is actually in the midst of the 2016 values:










So, I don't think we can really say the program's "failing" for lack of books or readership. We'd need more months to be able to tell that. What we have in the last four months might just be part of the normal variation. Pluck August out of the above graph, and everything would look pretty darned stable.


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## 75845

Becca Mills said:


> So, I don't think we can really say the program's "failing" for lack of books or readership. We'd need more months to be able to tell that. What we have in the last four months might just be part of the normal variation. Pluck August out of the above graph, and everything would look pretty darned stable.


Wherever figures come from they lack any reliability because it appears that KU is being massively scammed, but obviously KDP won't say if it is or not. If it is then reader numbers are redundant because of the number of scam accounts needed to succeed in that nefarious industry, Nor do total page read count for much, especially if they include a lot of 3000 page reads of randomly generated characters (the ones that constitute words, not novels).

The only true measurement is if an individual book is still earning enough of KU to justify exclusivity. Everything else is guesswork based on Amazon's obscurantism.


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## EvanPickering

So, I know I'm absurdly late to the party here, but...

How can one tell if KDP select numbers are off? What are the signs of people that have had probs?

In general, I *think* mine are fine. I base this off the fact that as my sales go up/down my pagereads tend to have done the same. Is this specifically a problem for people who have steady sales and a sudden plummet of pagereads?

Sorry for all the questions. Wondering if I should send an email or if I have no real reason to.  If someone could give me a cliffs that'd be awesome I can't read 113 pages of thread   

thanks my dudes


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## David VanDyke

EvanPickering said:


> How can one tell if KDP select numbers are off? What are the signs of people that have had probs?
> 
> In general, I *think* mine are fine. I base this off the fact that as my sales go up/down my pagereads tend to have done the same. Is this specifically a problem for people who have steady sales and a sudden plummet of pagereads?


That's been the biggest tipoff for me: the page reads per sale average dropping from, say, 900 reads per sale (on a 3000-page box set) to 200. In other words, a box set that sells 20 per day, 600 per month, goes from 18K page reads per day/over 500K per month to 4K/day or 120K/month


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

*"The Executive KDP rep expressed that Amazon has been doing ongoing audits to see if they can find any system-wide issues that might be creating an unidentified problem. And, as many have shared with us, thus far, they haven't come across anything that seems off or wrong."*

This is quite alarming. While we thought that Amazon was denying there was a problem (perhaps for legal reasons) and were hopefully working frantically in the background to correct it, it now seems that they can't even recognise that there is a problem. As Dr Phil says, "You can't fix what you don't acknowledge".


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## GoneToWriterSanctum

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> And it's all a joke. _The Dinosaur Chronicles_ goes out of KU at midnight Pacific time (tonight/this a.m.) and yesterday (the 15th) and today I've already gotten KU reads after 18 days of zip.
> 
> Sorry; this won't change my mind. Already looking at D2D and Smashwords TOSes. Leaning toward Smashwords because they also have an in-house bookstore. If anyone here cares to offer comment or suggestion on SW vs. D2D, I'll be happy to listen. (If this is another thread, pls. direct me.)


Joseph,

I use both. D2D for Apple and a couple of other small eBook places, Smashwords for a couple of places (like Overdrive) that aren't available through D2D, and I'm in the Smashwords store. For Kobo, Google Play, and Barnes And Noble, I'm direct.

I hope that helps you.


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## PearlEarringLady

Becca Mills said:


> So, I don't think we can really say the program's "failing" for lack of books or readership. We'd need more months to be able to tell that. What we have in the last four months might just be part of the normal variation. Pluck August out of the above graph, and everything would look pretty darned stable.


This is a great view of the relevant data. Leaving January out of things, since the KENPCs were adjusted on 1st Feb, it's striking how stable the numbers are over the year, given the previous constant upward trend, and September isn't much of a sharp downturn, more a reversion after an anomalously high August.

It suggests to me that, even though some authors/books have been catastrophically affected, overall only a small number of the KU pool has had a problem. Either that or the increase in scammed pages read has balanced the decline.


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## unkownwriter

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> And it's all a joke. _The Dinosaur Chronicles_ goes out of KU at midnight Pacific time (tonight/this a.m.) and yesterday (the 15th) and today I've already gotten KU reads after 18 days of zip.
> 
> Sorry; this won't change my mind. Already looking at D2D and Smashwords TOSes. Leaning toward Smashwords because they also have an in-house bookstore. If anyone here cares to offer comment or suggestion on SW vs. D2D, I'll be happy to listen. (If this is another thread, pls. direct me.)


I doubled up on my tin foil hat because suddenly, a release this month is acting as it did for the past two years: fairly good downloads and some sales with follow through to the earlier works. Not like September at all. September was bad, October worse, and November? Well, November was a joke. One of those jokes people tell with a wink and then wonder why you aren't laughing, it was all in good fun.

Want to know why that foil was bolstered? Those same works roll out of KU this month. Coincidence? I'm not the only one reporting better results as books begin to expire in KU. Also note, the payout is above .005 cents again.

My theory is we are at the beta testing stage of KUv3. Most of us have been expecting it for a while now. Those not yet affected should be watching their accounts closely. I doubt some of those who are making significant money will be affected as harshly as those like me, who basically make pocket change, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. Some may continue to deny anything is going on.

Something else I've thought about is how everyone seems to sign up to KU. There are some pretty horrible books in a program that's called "select". What if these changes are a round-about way to discourage some people from using KU? It would make more sense to actually put some standards in place, but Amazon has an aversion to doing that. And it would take live people, trained to apply said standards. So unless the entire program is about to collapse, I don't see that happening.

There's been a confluence of changes that hit at the same time, which may be why some were hit so hard (I basically lost 99% of my income). Print beta, Page Flip, Prime reading, probably something to curtail the worse of the scammers, possibly some change to the algos to reduce the affect of borrows for at least some KU books (I'd say mostly shorts). I think it wasn't any one thing, but everything hitting around the same time period. Something broke, they can't seem to figure out what, and there's no way in Hades they're going to admit it anyway. What would the shareholders think?

Now, excuse me while I order some heavy duty aluminum foil. The signals are burning this one up.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## edwardgtalbot

she-la-ti-da said:


> Something else I've thought about is how everyone seems to sign up to KU. There are some pretty horrible books in a program that's called "select". What if these changes are a round-about way to discourage some people from using KU? It would make more sense to actually put some standards in place, but Amazon has an aversion to doing that. And it would take live people, trained to apply said standards. So unless the entire program is about to collapse, I don't see that happening.


I don't think these changes are trying to discourage people from putting horrible books in Select - even Amazon I'm sure knows that this kind of disruption is far more likely to cause authors with more sales and who pay more attention to leave than others, and those are likely to be the better books on average not the worse ones.

I think we need to accept that A) There is some sort of problem and B) We really know very little about what Amazon is doing about it other than not telling us anything useful. Maybe they indeed have done something on purpose. Maybe they are completely clueless. Or maybe some combination. I know way (way) back in this thread there were posts about experiments with page flip and going back to the start of the book after reading, both of which caused reads that should have appeared not to appear. In theory they are a re-creatable problem. The specific details of book launches that Ruby shared are also something that should provide good data. But hundreds of people have shared details like this with Amazon, and as Phoenix notes, their responses haven't changed. On a related note, I'm not sure what date Author Earnings did their data collection for the October report but it seems likely that it was before we would have seen any kind of major departure from KU due to this issue. I'm primarily talking about departure of authors with books in the top 10-20K ranks, as the percentage of page reads by books other than those is fairly low. When they do their next report, in theory there is enough data there to get an idea whether these problems have had an impact. They can look at the changes in specific authors and books and do some comparisons with similar deltas between previous reports.


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## 5ngela

Atlantisatheart said:


> Isn't that the reason why Amazon didn't want to flush the scam books, those $10 a month scam accounts made KU look pretty good to the investors, and if Amazon knew about them and we're including them in their KU figures, representing them as a growing market, is that legal?
> Can KU survive in its present form without those scam accounts bolstering the 'fund'?
> What if the whole KU project has been based on a scam lie only underpinned by the scammers? Take away the scammers and what do you have left? For that we'd need to know how many scam accounts are out there, I suppose.


Personally I think KU function is to destroy Oyster and Scribd regardless whether they make profit or loss. I have a feeling that if Scribd goes bankrupt or something like that, Amazon will "shut down" KU. But I really hope that I am wrong because I like KU.


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## KelliWolfe

KU's goal isn't to get rid of Oyster (which is already gone) or Scribd. It's to get more people into the Amazon storefront where they will then buy other merchandise.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## EvanPickering

David VanDyke said:


> That's been the biggest tipoff for me: the page reads per sale average dropping from, say, 900 reads per sale (on a 3000-page box set) to 200. In other words, a box set that sells 20 per day, 600 per month, goes from 18K page reads per day/over 500K per month to 4K/day or 120K/month


Hmm interesting. I just calculated my first 180 days rate (410pagereads/sale) to my last 90 days (283pagereads/sale). Do you think that's a big enough dropoff to consider emailing amazon or no? FWIW in the past 90 days I released Book2 of my series, though it hasn't really taken off yet in all fairness. Still, i expected to get more pagereads, not less lol.

Thanks for the response. Trying to figure out if I should email amazon


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## Seneca42

WasAnn said:


> No matter which way we slice it, it is unlikely that Amazon is on the "dunno" side of all such options. That means the most likely scenario is that they are absolutely and 100% sure about both what's happening and why it's happening.
> 
> Based on some of the informal research and tallies, I'm going to double-down on my previous assertions:
> 
> 1) This was a trial run for KU3 and some books ticked over the new automated scam book detector, which implements penalties on visibility in order to suppress said books.


your whole post convinced me this is likely what is happening.

I'll just add, that more importantly re: beta testing, is that you have to let it run its course (beta testing doesn't really work if you cut it short or fix the problems mid-test). You have to let people drop out of KU to see just how far you can push them before people start to bail.

So they are likely trying to find that sweet spot where, ya, the system isn't perfect, but it's catching scammers and has an attrition rate on KU authors that is acceptable.

The only thing that boggles my mind is the perception a lot of people have that Amazon doesn't know what it's doing. I mean, they can hire PhD's in any discipline they need (and I'm sure they do)... they not only know everything they are doing, they know it like NASA knows sending a rover to Mars. Yes, the CR's have no clue what's going on, but the people building and assessing the system surely do.

And in the one in a billion chance they don't... that's even scarier!


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## Ebook Itch

Atlantisatheart said:


> What if the whole KU project has been based on a scam lie only underpinned by the scammers? Take away the scammers and what do you have left? For that we'd need to know how many scam accounts are out there, I suppose.


Well, that Russian Coder had 80,000+ fake accounts on one server. Then a week or two later "Clever Man" and the Goat Books steamed into the top 100 of Amazon without any problems. I do think Amazon is slowly taking care of the problem (like Google in the early days of SEO.)


----------



## Becca Mills

Seneca42 said:


> your whole post convinced me this is likely what is happening.
> 
> I'll just add, that more importantly re: beta testing, is that you have to let it run its course (beta testing doesn't really work if you cut it short or fix the problems mid-test). You have to let people drop out of KU to see just how far you can push them before people start to bail.
> 
> So they are likely trying to find that sweet spot where, ya, the system isn't perfect, but it's catching scammers and has an attrition rate on KU authors that is acceptable.
> 
> The only thing that boggles my mind is the perception a lot of people have that Amazon doesn't know what it's doing. I mean, they can hire PhD's in any discipline they need (and I'm sure they do)... they not only know everything they are doing, they know it like NASA knows sending a rover to Mars. Yes, the CR's have no clue what's going on, but the people building and assessing the system surely do.
> 
> And in the one in a billion chance they don't... that's even scarier!


NASA also sent an orbiter hurtling in Mars's surface because they intermixed imperial and metric units. Incompetence is everywhere. It should be a bumper sticker. 

Why Amazon doesn't just hire people to do an eyes-on check of submitted manuscripts beats me. This is one of those things a human can handle quickly and easily. The scam books telegraph a gestalt impression of scamminess; that's the kind of thing algorithms struggle with and human brains handle like breeze. Honestly, if they're feeling super cheap, Amazon could hire workers in a developing English-speaking nation to vet books at $.01 each. I'd rather they hire well paid professionals onshore, people who would be a long-term asset to KDP, but it's still perfectly doable if they don't want to spend the money.


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## Seneca42

Becca Mills said:


> NASA also sent an orbiter hurtling in Mars's surface because they intermixed imperial and metric units. Incompetence is everywhere. It should be a bumper sticker.


yes, but when mistakes happen they figure out why. Nasa doesn't say "hmm...everything looks fine on our end. Let's send another orbiter up there and see if it crashes also." 

I just find the notion that Amazon doesn't know what is going on (at this point) to be almost impossible to believe. Especially given all of this I'm sure is in response to them getting scammed $3M by that guy in Vancouver. They are likely watching their system like a hawk to identify other scammers.

And if they don't know what is going on, it's even scarier. Because what that means is their system is so huge and so complex that it's beyond even their ability to manage... ie. they can't find the error that crashed the orbiter.


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## KelliWolfe

Seneca42 said:


> yes, but when mistakes happen they figure out why. Nasa doesn't say "hmm...everything looks fine on our end. Let's send another orbiter up there and see if it crashes also."
> 
> I just find the notion that Amazon doesn't know what is going on (at this point) to be almost impossible to believe. Especially given all of this I'm sure is in response to them getting scammed $3M by that guy in Vancouver. They are likely watching their system like a hawk to identify other scammers.
> 
> And if they don't know what is going on, it's even scarier. Because what that means is their system is so huge and so complex that it's beyond even their ability to manage... ie. they can't find the error that crashed the orbiter.


Amazon had a bug in their code that updated their search engine database with the keywords from the KDP side for at least 8 months that I know of before I gave up and quit checking to see if they'd fixed it. Keywords would get "stuck" and no matter what you changed them to in KDP, they wouldn't update in the search engine.

I sent KDP support detailed instructions on how to replicate the problem with specific example books. I keep all of my old keyword sets and date them, so I was able to go back and determine exactly when it stopped working. It was easy to show that the keywords that were tied to the book in search were not the ones currently in KDP, and that the ones in KDP didn't work at all. Their support team called me and I spent over an hour on the phone walking them through the whole process until they understood exactly what the problem was and agreed that it was definitely broken. The final result was that it was not fixed for at least several months (if it ever was) and they later denied that there was any problem at all.


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## Becca Mills

Seneca42 said:


> yes, but when mistakes happen they figure out why. Nasa doesn't say "hmm...everything looks fine on our end. Let's send another orbiter up there and see if it crashes also."
> 
> I just find the notion that Amazon doesn't know what is going on (at this point) to be almost impossible to believe. Especially given all of this I'm sure is in response to them getting scammed $3M by that guy in Vancouver. They are likely watching their system like a hawk to identify other scammers.
> 
> And if they don't know what is going on, it's even scarier. Because what that means is their system is so huge and so complex that it's beyond even their ability to manage... ie. they can't find the error that crashed the orbiter.


I don't think it's that they _can't_, per se. Rather, I think KDP is a tiny and probably underfunded corner of a $300 billion company. If indie publishers were as important to Amazon as that orbiter was to NASA, or if the failure were so public and embarrassing, I think the problem would get solved quickly. We all know that Amazon performs amazingly well in the areas they focus on.


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## PhoenixS

Ebook Itch said:


> Well, that Russian Coder had 80,000+ fake accounts on one server. Then a week or two later "Clever Man" and the Goat Books steamed into the top 100 of Amazon without any problems. I do think Amazon is slowly taking care of the problem (like Google in the early days of SEO.)





Seneca42 said:


> I just find the notion that Amazon doesn't know what is going on (at this point) to be almost impossible to believe. Especially given all of this I'm sure is in response to them getting scammed $3M by that guy in Vancouver. They are likely watching their system like a hawk to identify other scammers.


There are a couple of scammers that have been operating, one for months, the other for a couple of years. They are running books free, repubbing them and running them again cyclically. Every single day they have 5 or 6 books in the Top 30 free, often in the Top 20 free. One has about 100 titles and the other about 200 titles in their catalog that they keep cycling through. I know I've alerted Amazon numerous times over months. I know others have noticed and alerted Amazon too. And yet there are their books in the Top Free lists. Every. Single. Day. For months. The books always clustered together. No way is that behavior organic. It's clearly bot-driven.

Those scammers' books are taking the top 5-10% of the best visibility legitimate authors have in getting free works noticed. Every. Single. Day. I could see such behavior being allowed for a few weeks as Amazon built a case against them so when they took down the accounts the scammers couldn't start up again or engage in other recourse. But these publishers and their books have been called out by name for MONTHS. Pointed to. Noted. Built evidence against.

And those scammers still operate months and years later despite the evidence.

Amazon has also been presented with abundant evidence of other scams and clear violations of the TOS going back 6 months now. Those of us whistle-blowing are being told to mind our own accounts and not do similar while the scammers profit month after month.

I once believed Amazon did care. I see Amazon attacking some of the scammers and reclaiming some of the ground the scammers have taken, and want to believe that they do care. I have seen instances where publishers with multiple books all stuffed with the same titles have had their accounts closed. I become heartened that inroads are being made.

But the last 6 months where Amazon has turned a blind eye to a preponderance of evidence delivered over and over to ECR regarding a varied handful of egregious scams has disabused me of the idea that Amazon does care across the board.

And by not caring, by not acting on the evidence they have in hand, they are ENABLING the scammers, pure and simple.

They brushed me off about the free rank issues in September. Gave me party-line answers, non-answers, and answers that weren't about the issue at hand. And then they ignored me. And then the problem that wasn't a problem was fixed. I'll note they never once acknowledged there WAS a problem there either.

The response to the KU page issue is a response cut from the same cloth. We're sitting here on reams of evidence, and they're turning a blind eye to it hoping we all grow weary of the fight and go away... And that attitude makes me just a little angrier. Every. Single. Day.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

PhoenixS said:


> There are a couple of scammers that have been operating, one for months, the other for a couple of years. They are running books free, repubbing them and running them again cyclically. Every single day they have 5 or 6 books in the Top 30 free, often in the Top 20 free. One has about 100 titles and the other about 200 titles in their catalog that they keep cycling through. I know I've alerted Amazon numerous times over months. I know others have noticed and alerted Amazon too. And yet there are their books in the Top Free lists. Every. Single. Day. For months. The books always clustered together. No way is that behavior organic. It's clearly bot-driven.
> 
> Those scammers' books are taking the top 5-10% of the best visibility legitimate authors have in getting free works noticed. Every. Single. Day. I could see such behavior being allowed for a few weeks as Amazon built a case against them so when they took down the accounts the scammers couldn't start up again or engage in other recourse. But these publishers and their books have been called out by name for MONTHS. Pointed to. Noted. Built evidence against.
> 
> And those scammers still operate months and years later despite the evidence.


I hear you. It is so disheartening to even look at the free lists most days. Most of my promotion efforts hinge on keeping at the top of subcategory lists because of the benefit of the exposure. When the lists are clogged up with scammers and nothing ever gets done, it feels like banging my head against the wall trying to make some sort of impact with my own books. And yeah, it's tough not to be bitter sometimes.


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass

Phoenix. I am curious. How are scammers making money off of books being free. I don't understand the mechanics of it. Why do it? I am not disputing that it is done, just trying to understand.


----------



## Seneca42

PhoenixS said:


> And by not caring, by not acting on the evidence they have in hand, they are ENABLING the scammers, pure and simple.


The good thing is that this is almost like any other business/market. Eventually this behavior will damage reputations and drive new markets. I know it may seem unthinkable at this stage that anyone could ever challenge Amazon, but the world is filled with titans who stumble and fall.

Cable providers thought they could do whatever they wanted, and some customers let them (to this day), but many others cut the cord (and are lost as customers for life). Anytime a business gets a monopoly share of a market, they get arrogant, damage their reputation, and then competition swoops in to take advantage. By then it's too late for the incumbent to change their ways, as their reputation is solidified.

What this entire debacle has shown me is long-term I have to be wide because it is not at all clear that Amazon will be the winner long-term, not operating like this. Their core business will never waiver, but ebooks? Imagine the disruption if just ONE major marketplace (walmart for instance) decided they wanted to seriously eat into that market? Offering an exclusivity platform like KU, but one that favors the author more?

What Amazon is doing today, will sow the seed of people being open to that market shift.

I've said it in other posts, this is NOT good business logic. I know it seems like it is today, because no one can challenge Amazon. But in three years, what's happening today could be what destroys business then.

But who knows, the way the world is going maybe Bezos will be president in 2020.


----------



## Carey Lewis

Becca Mills said:


> I don't think it's that they _can't_, per se. Rather, I think KDP is a tiny and probably underfunded corner of a $300 billion company. If indie publishers were as important to Amazon as that orbiter was to NASA, or if the failure were so public and embarrassing, I think the problem would get solved quickly. We all know that Amazon performs amazingly well in the areas they focus on.


With everything Amazon has their hands in now, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that they don't know. I think indie publishing isn't a big deal to them. Once upon a time, yes. Now, certainly not. My girlfriend watches The Voice religiously, and every week, there's Carson talking about Amazon helping out with some counting system with the votes or however the hell that show works. With the reach Amazon has, I think KDP plays a small role in what they have, and much more than that, what they aim to do.

I think it's very plausible that they're looking at what they see on their end and just go "nope, we don't see a problem" and leave it at that. They might not have the time or resources to dedicate anything more to the issue than that. If they don't see a problem, then there's no problem. As small as they are, even if someone did want to help, it's probably hard for them to go up the chain of command.

I think some of us might be giving the KDP appendage of Amazon entirely too much credit. How's the saying go? You'll never go broke underestimating stupidity?


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## Colin

Seneca42 said:


> ... Anytime a business gets a monopoly share of a market, they get arrogant, damage their reputation, and then competition swoops in to take advantage...


Yep.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Seneca42

Carey Lewis said:


> I think it's very plausible that they're looking at what they see on their end and just go "nope, we don't see a problem" and leave it at that. They might not have the time or resources to dedicate anything more to the issue than that. If they don't see a problem, then there's no problem. As small as they are, even if someone did want to help, it's probably hard for them to go up the chain of command.


Maybe I just have a different past experience that causes me to view things with a certain bias. But it doesn't matter how "big" a company is... the department managing any given facet of that business is a dedicated resource (it's a business within a business, likely with its own Vice President and org structure). So unless amazon didn't hire anyone to ensure reliability of the KU system, it's almost a guarantee that one or many people's jobs hinge on this. There is no way they are saying "Ah, I don't see a problem, so lets just ignore thousands of authors complaining." Unless of course they want to be fired.

Do things sometimes get botched? Yes. But never for months on end. The one and only time that does happen is if a business is severely under resources... has fired a bunch of people for screwing up... and hasn't fully replaced them yet. Then you can get a gap where something is broken but no one fixes it.

Which when I think of it may have happened after the $3M scam that garnered a lot of publicity. Odds are many people got fired over that. So some new team, not up to speed yet, is trying to secure the system (unfortunately, breaking it in the process).

All conjecture I fully admit, but the notion that they don't know things are broken is literally unthinkable to me.


----------



## Chrissy

Carey Lewis said:


> *I think it's very plausible that they're looking at what they see on their end and just go "nope, we don't see a problem" and leave it at that.* They might not have the time or resources to dedicate anything more to the issue than that. If they don't see a problem, then there's no problem. As small as they are, even if someone did want to help, it's probably hard for them to go up the chain of command.


Perhaps they don't see a problem because the system is working exactly as they [Amazon] intend it to.


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## Carey Lewis

Seneca42 said:


> Maybe I just have a different past experience that causes me to view things with a certain bias. But it doesn't matter how "big" a company is... the department managing any given facet of that business is a dedicated resource (it's a business within a business, likely with its own Vice President and org structure). So unless amazon didn't hire anyone to ensure reliability of the KU system, it's almost a guarantee that one or many people's jobs hinge on this. There is no way they are saying "Ah, I don't see a problem, so lets just ignore thousands of authors complaining." Unless of course they want to be fired.
> 
> Do things sometimes get botched? Yes. But never for months on end. The one and only time that does happen is if a business is severely under resources... has fired a bunch of people for screwing up... and hasn't fully replaced them yet. Then you can get a gap where something is broken but no one fixes it.
> 
> Which when I think of it may have happened after the $3M scam that garnered a lot of publicity. Odds are many people got fired over that. So some new team, not up to speed yet, is trying to secure the system (unfortunately, breaking it in the process).
> 
> All conjecture I fully admit, but the notion that they don't know things are broken is literally unthinkable to me.


Do we know thousands have complained? I've written one email and gotten the "all clear" response. I don't get enough page reads to say I have a problem definitively. There have been people on this thread that have said they've written a few emails. I would think the vast majority of people in KDP A) Don't even know about these boards, B) think it's normal behavior because their books aren't appealing to people and think there is no problem or C) following along, lurking, waiting for the problem to be fixed.

I would like to think they're working on a solution too, but I think we have a different level of faith in people. At this point, with how long this has been going on, it wouldn't surprise me that they don't think there's a problem. I think we're making a bigger problem out of this than they're seeing it as, if they even see a problem.


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## AlecHutson

Atlantisatheart said:


> I've noticed with some of the older books that I'm still waiting to drop out of KU is that pages and sales seem to come in blocks - almost as if it took another download, or more reads to push the first pages through the system. I can't really determine that with the newer books that I've had to put in to finish the series, because they have too many pages and sales. Anyone else getting blocks as in two days nothing and then ka-ching?


Hi Atlantis! I'm very new to KDP and publishing in general, but I've noticed the same thing. My book over the last week has had daily reads of 700, 2012, 4142, 979, 2810, 3620, and 502 today, with a few hours left to go. I can understand some variation, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Everyone isn't picking up and putting down my book on the same days. I actually came to the same conclusion as you - that the reads are not flowing regularly but 'bunching' up in the system and being released in spurts.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Carey Lewis said:


> They might not have the time or resources to dedicate anything more to the issue than that.


Uh, no. One intern with a PC and twenty minutes could verify both page-counting problems, as reported to KDP _ad nauseum_.

Even an _unpaid_ intern could do it.


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## Seneca42

Carey Lewis said:


> I would like to think they're working on a solution too, but I think we have a different level of faith in people.


my views have nothing to do with people, just the facts - making business decisions based on "faith" is not my style. I have no clue what amazon's approach to all this is - I can't ascribe any kind of intent on their part, I have no clue what is going on inside there. All I'm saying is I know how corporations are structured (they are all structured the same way, they don't just make up how they do things - org structures are an industry standard) and this notion that they wouldn't be aware of these issues is literally impossible... and if they aren't, that's ten times scarier because it means the whole system is mismanaged.

If they are just covering up the issue, that's at least reassuring in that they know. If they don't know, then forget it, that system has no hope long term. The scammers will figure out ways to stay one step ahead of them.

The fact one guy was able to scam $3M out of them, suggests mismanagement may be the case.

Anyway, all unpleansant thoughts. Each must come to their own conclusions.

On the positive side, those remaining will benefit if authors drop out  So everyone wins. Those who think its broken can get away, those who think it isn't can enjoy the benefits of less authors to compete with.


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## Anarchist

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Uh, no. One intern with a PC and twenty minutes could verify both page-counting problems, as reported to KDP _ad nauseum_.
> 
> Even an _unpaid_ intern could do it.


If you've ever worked for a large company, you would know it never works like that.

Issues are identified and *prioritized* for investigation and resolution.

Just because Bezos can hire his neighbor's code-savvy 15-year-old kid to find and fix an issue doesn't make doing so a viable solution. That's not how large companies work. That's how bootstrapped ventures work.

I think a lot of authors are caught in an echo chamber. They think the problems they're experiencing should take precedence over other issues Amazon is facing. Fact is, there are bigger issues right now with FBA (those of you who know big FBA sellers, ask them. They'll tell you). And like KDP, FBA is just one microcosm of the Amazon ecosystem.

Think about every facet of Amazon's business, from web services and cloud drive to Prime video and Dash. Now, consider the fact that there are probably daily issues that surface in every one of them. Assigning *QUALIFIED* resources to these issues is a challenge.

Issues with KDP may be a low priority.


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## Colin

Anarchist said:


> ... Issues with KDP may be a low priority.


They might be a low priority* now*, but these issues - if left unresolved - will almost certainly result in future damage to Amazon's reputation.


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## edwardgtalbot

Colin said:


> They might be a low priority* now*, but these issues - if left unresolved - will almost certainly result in future damage to Amazon's reputation.


Will they? I'm not so sure. At least, not damaged in a way that matters to their business. No one knows the scope of the problem (except maybe Amazon). We don't have any hard data on who's leaving KU. We know that their contracts are worded in such a way as to make even the clearly flawed things people have found difficult to win a legal case against. While certainly a few customers of impacted authors are upset about this, they are a drop in the bucket as far as Amazon is concerned. I honestly can't see anything that would have me truly concerned about reputation damage that would hurt the business. Probably the closest thing to it is what Phoenix noted about scammers. If scammers take over too much of the lists, THAT could hurt the reputation. But nothing else that we know for a fact (as opposed to the speculation) seems like it is a big risk to Amazon. Even having to shut down KU due to problems is not to my mind a particularly big risk to Amazon.

As a side note, my experiences working for several big companies in IT tells me that Anarchist is exactly right. And it's even worse than that, actually. There are so many competing priorities coming down from various high levels of any big company that it's not uncommon at all for big problems to go unresolved for long periods of time if higher priorities are coming down from the executive suite. Companies that avoid this are the exception not the rule.


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## Colin

edwardgtalbot said:


> Will they? I'm not so sure. At least, not damaged in a way that matters to their business. No one knows the scope of the problem (except maybe Amazon). We don't have any hard data on who's leaving KU. We know that their contracts are worded in such a way as to make even the clearly flawed things people have found difficult to win a legal case against. While certainly a few customers of impacted authors are upset about this, they are a drop in the bucket as far as Amazon is concerned. I honestly can't see anything that would have me truly concerned about reputation damage that would hurt the business. Probably the closest thing to it is what Phoenix noted about scammers. If scammers take over too much of the lists, THAT could hurt the reputation. But nothing else that we know for a fact (as opposed to the speculation) seems like it is a big risk to Amazon. Even having to shut down KU due to problems is not to my mind a particularly big risk to Amazon.
> 
> As a side note, my experiences working for several big companies in IT tells me that Anarchist is exactly right. And it's even worse than that, actually. There are so many competing priorities coming down from various high levels of any big company that it's not uncommon at all for big problems to go unresolved for long periods of time if higher priorities are coming down from the executive suite. Companies that avoid this are the exception not the rule.


You make some very good points, but it remains to be seen how this will pan out. With access to more than a hundred KDP accounts, I'm seeing some pretty bleak stats. People talk. Authors talk more than most.  And some of them - when not talking - even write books! Reputational damage takes time to filter through, but damage does happen, especially when the mighty think they are immune to such trivialities.


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## KelliWolfe

The reputational damage - if it happens - will only be with the authors. Authors aren't customers, authors are vendors. Amazon does not and never has cared about vendors. They will kick publishing giants like Hachette and MacMillan square in the nuts. They won't blink if 10,000 indie writers get their knickers in a twist. At the end of the day, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to their business. The entire bookstore - both the main store and KU - only exist to pull customer into the main storefront where they will spend more money buying other items. It isn't costing them money, and apparently it isn't costing them customers because if it was, it would be a high priority fix.

The long and short of it is that no one outside of the indie authors is going to care about this issue, ever. Amazon doesn't care and can't be made to care. It will get fixed, if it gets fixed, when Amazon gets around to it. In the meantime our only choice is the same as it has always been - does it make better business sense to us as individuals to have our books in Select or wide?


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## David VanDyke

In the history of firms "on top," it's usually possible to show in hindsight when the cracks in the castle started showing up before the walls started to crumble. Usually it's when they started letting situations like this slide, and one of them festers into an infection that destroys the corporate body. If not this one, then one five, or fifteen, or fifty years from now.

And every big corporation, even forward-thinking and disruptive ones, will eventually be displaced and disrupted. It's the nature of real free-market capitalism. Gimbel's is gone and Macy's is merely one among many. KMart used to be king until Wal-Mart came along. IBM is no longer dominant, nor is HP or Microsoft. AOL had its turn, as did Yahoo, and MySpace. Boeing once had nearly the entire airliner market in the Free World until Airbus rose to challenge them, and so on.

I think it will be a while before Amazon is displaced, but nits make lice, as they say. Small problems, left unaddressed, become big problems.


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## RipleyKing

Konrath and Data Guy weighed in on this over at Konrath's blog.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## KelliWolfe

Atlantisatheart said:


> I beg to differ. What Amazon seem to be overlooking is that Authors are customers, and we have family and friends, and friends have friends, etc. That's reputation right there.


Amazon has a reputation for screwing over their vendors - who also have family, friends, etc. The impact isn't enough for them to care. And let's be honest, outside of possibly immediate family and very, very close friends, no one is going to stop ordering stuff from Amazon because we complain about them shorting us on page reads.


> What they also seem to forget is that authors are the funnel to their store, and that funnel can be turned off if authors choose to go wide. We've all spent years driving trade towards the amazon store, now those going wide will be trying to do the opposite and taking their readers somewhere else, anywhere else.


They don't believe this is going to happen, because authors have a long, long, long history of allowing themselves to get screwed without walking away. Look at KU 2.0. Tens of thousands of people who were making good money writing shorts had their incomes cut by 90-95% overnight. There was big talk about bailing and going wide, but the vast majority of them stayed in KU and are now getting pennies for it. Amazon cut KENPC by 15-20% for everyone more or less across the board. There was grumbling, but did anyone leave? After 3 months of people knowing that Page Flip was causing pages to remain unread and the losses due to people navigating back to the front of the book, has there been a mass exodus from KU? No.

And even if people pull their books out of KU, they certainly aren't going to pull them out of the Amazon store. The funnel isn't going away.


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## H.C.

What ever happened to the publishers of "Clever Man" and "Boy with Sheep"? 

Reprimanded at all? Still scamming?


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## Seneca42

KelliWolfe said:


> Amazon has a reputation for screwing over their vendors - who also have family, friends, etc. The impact isn't enough for them to care. And let's be honest, outside of possibly immediate family and very, very close friends, no one is going to stop ordering stuff from Amazon because we complain about them shorting us on page reads.


You're 100% correct and will remain correct... until you aren't.  Or maybe you'll always be correct. Who knows.

Side story, personally I'm not all that upset with Amazon (business is business, I don't expect them to watch out for my interests, or vice versa). I'm going wide and I'll make that work and I'll be better for it in the long run. Or it won't work, and I'll crawl back with my tail between my legs, and I'll take whatever scraps Amazon decides I'm allowed to have. But I won't submit until I have no other choice.

Ironically, the ones most upset with amazon are my friends and family. They were actually yelling at me saying 'why the hell are you staying in KU, they are using you." hehe. I tried to explain the nuance of it all, but that's all they saw. They see the $2'ish payout as using authors.

I'll still buy from Amazon (as I say, I'm not upset over all this), but ironically they won't. And they'll go and tell others not to. In retail they say 1 angry customer will go tell 10 others, who will tell others... there's a ripple effect. That's why businesses don't tell customers, even the ones who are clearly wrong, to go to hell. Just too much damage can be caused.

So ya, Amazon can probably afford to ignore all this. But, it's still a bad way to run your business... because you never know what the tipping point is until you've past it and it's too late to fix it.


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## 5ngela

KelliWolfe said:


> KU's goal isn't to get rid of Oyster (which is already gone) or Scribd. It's to get more people into the Amazon storefront where they will then buy other merchandise.


Let's hope so. I really really hope that I am wrong. Let's hope that KU does not suddenly shut down, the moment Scribd shut down.


----------



## 9 Diamonds

KelliWolfe said:


> The reputational damage - if it happens - will only be with the authors. Authors aren't customers, authors are vendors. Amazon does not and never has cared about vendors. They will kick publishing giants like Hachette and MacMillan square in the nuts. They won't blink if 10,000 indie writers get their knickers in a twist. At the end of the day, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to their business. The entire bookstore - both the main store and KU - only exist to pull customer into the main storefront where they will spend more money buying other items. It isn't costing them money, and apparently it isn't costing them customers because if it was, it would be a high priority fix.
> 
> The long and short of it is that no one outside of the indie authors is going to care about this issue, ever. Amazon doesn't care and can't be made to care. It will get fixed, if it gets fixed, when Amazon gets around to it. In the meantime our only choice is the same as it has always been - does it make better business sense to us as individuals to have our books in Select or wide?


Well said, Kelli and I agree with it all. Your last point about our choice as indie publishers and authors is especially salient. Thanks.


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## Kate.

5ngela said:


> Let's hope so. I really really hope that I am wrong. Let's hope that KU does not suddenly shut down, the moment Scribd shut down.


I'd be surprised if they did... KU has taught _a lot_ of readers to use the subscription method. If KU shut down it would create a vacuum in the market for a new competitor to fill.

I could see them gradually scaling the program down, though. Lower payouts = less authors enrolled = less readers subscribed.


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## Guest

5ngela said:


> Let's hope so. I really really hope that I am wrong. Let's hope that KU does not suddenly shut down, the moment Scribd shut down.


If KU was suddenly shut down, the charts would go back to sales only. KU readers would be forced to pay for books again and authors would make more money.

Free / Permafree would be a lot more effective than it is now.

Authors would quit select and flush the other platforms with their books, which would give them a chance to grow instead of die.

Seems like all win to me.


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## PearlEarringLady

RipleyKing said:


> Konrath and Data Guy weighed in on this over at Konrath's blog.


Do you have a link for this? Because I don't see it on Konrath's blog.


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## H.C.

The last four days of page reads 590, 625, 212, 165 and today....*1 KENP*


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## AlecHutson

PaulineMRoss said:


> Do you have a link for this? Because I don't see it on Konrath's blog.


It's in the comment section of the latest post. And it's an interesting read - their conclusion is that there is no malfunction in page reads, rather that Amazon has started pushing their own imprints more and subtly tweaked the marketing algorithms so that their titles get more visibility. Just from lurking the last few months, that doesn't seem to explain why certain authors have seen the 90% fall off of reads that have been reported.


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## Gertie Kindle

Herefortheride said:


> The last four days of page reads 590, 625, 212, 165 and today....*1 KENP*


i had a 1 page read the other day on a collection that hardly ever gets read. Today, it has 70 page reads. i have to believe that one person borrowed the book, checked out the first page at the time, and is now actually reading the book.


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## PearlEarringLady

AlecHutson said:


> It's in the comment section of the latest post. And it's an interesting read - their conclusion is that there is no malfunction in page reads, rather that Amazon has started pushing their own imprints more and subtly tweaked the marketing algorithms so that their titles get more visibility. Just from lurking the last few months, that doesn't seem to explain why certain authors have seen the 90% fall off of reads that have been reported.


It's really disappointing to see anyone at this stage still denying there's a problem. Data Guy I can excuse, because he's looking at big numbers and the overall picture, but anyone who's read this thread would know that some individuals, who monitor their numbers very carefully, have lost up to 90% of their page reads overnight. That is NOT a tweaked algorithm or the result of waning interest in a genre or increasing quality or reader discernment in the marketplace, and frankly it's offensive to suggest it is.


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## Guest

I just had a read of Konrath's blogger comments ... And all I come away with is that he has not read through this thread. He only can see as far as his own page reads not being affected, plus provides zingers such as "Amazon doesn't have a history of screwing authors. They have a history of overpaying authors." Using the fact that short story authors made money with KU1 & that scammers cleaned up on KU2 as examples.

One of his actual presumptions to why people are seeing page reductions is that Amazon were overreporting in the months before. 

Others joining in the conversation provided some serious elitism and contempt for smaller authors starting out.


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## Joseph Malik

Herefortheride said:


> The last four days of page reads 590, 625, 212, 165 and today....*1 KENP*


I have days exactly like this. Yesterday was one.

2 sales, 5 clickthrus, 1 KENP. The day before, I had 1300 KENP with 4 clickthrus and 2 sales; a good day, but normal for a good day. But the day before that I had 637 KENP at 0500 when I went out for my run, and not another KENP all day. Really? People just stopped reading my book at around 4 AM? Really?

I'm telling you, there's a glitch in the routine that updates the KENP. It appears that sometimes it fails to update, and the next time -- assuming it works the next time -- you get whatever reads have happened since the update that they missed. It doesn't aggregate. On the days when I have single or double-digits, the KENP doesn't appear to refresh at all, all day; at 2300 last night I still had 1 KENP, the same as I had at 0445. Freakin' ONE.

A few days ago I had 13 at 0500 and not another page read all day, even though I had clickthrus and sales.

I'm pretty sure the KENP update feature is broken.


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## Joseph Malik

Herefortheride said:


> What ever happened to the publishers of "Clever Man" and "Boy with Sheep"?
> 
> Reprimanded at all? Still scamming?


I sent some dudes to their house. It won't happen again.


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## hopecartercan

Quote from: Herefortheride on Yesterday at 06:22:23 PM
What ever happened to the publishers of "Clever Man" and "Boy with Sheep"?

Reprimanded at all? Still scamming?



Joseph Malik said:


> I sent some dudes to their house. It won't happen again.


Thank you, Joseph Malik.


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## Joseph Malik

The real bitch about this whole thing is that I'm still making more on KENP than I am on sales, even with the accounting all screwed up. I'm getting about 3 to 1 KENP reads to sales. I'm sure it's much, much higher, but that's what I'm getting credit for.

I'll probably stay in KU until Book II comes out next summer and then go wide.


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## PearlEarringLady

Joseph Malik said:


> 2 sales, 5 clickthrus, 1 KENP.


What's a clickthrough?



Joseph Malik said:


> I'm still making more on KENP than I am on sales, even with the accounting all screwed up.


I've always done that on the fantasies, which are long (600-1100 KENPC). The number of full readthroughs is almost the same as sales numbers, but the revenue for pages read is twice as much as from sales. The Regencies get a higher level of full readthroughs but a lower level of revenue since the books are way shorter (300-400 KENPC).


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## Desert Rose

Herefortheride said:


> The last four days of page reads 590, 625, 212, 165 and today....*1 KENP*


RNG is RNG. No, wait, that explanation only works in video games.


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## Joseph Malik

PaulineMRoss said:


> What's a clickthrough?


Clicks on my AMS ad. Eyeballs-on.


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## 75845

Amazon will never scrap KU as its a means to keep their own publications at the top of the hit parade, which in turn adds another incentive to exclusivity as they use Select as the farm team for Amazon Publishing. They might scrap page reads if it drove authors away from the farm team. Kindle Store is a supermarket that realised they make more money selling their own brand products. Only Randy House Penguin outsell Amazon on the Kindle Store.

I wouldn't trust anything that Data Guy says on  page reads especially when he ponders about Amazon Publishing. Data Guy spent the first two years of his Author Earnings reports in denial about the strength of Amazon Publishing in order to set everything up as indie vs Big Five, despite Amazon Publishing being number 1.5 in the Big Five. AFAIK he continues to calculate sales on the basis of Select authors getting a 50%/50% split on buys and borrows, even though authors are no longer paid for the borrow. Amazon ruined Author Earnings when they launched KU with a ranking boost for each download and Amazon did that primarily to boost their own product, which probably explains the slow roll-out of KU outside America.


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## TheLass

Mercia McMahon said:


> Amazon will never scrap KU as its a means to keep their own publications at the top of the hit parade, which in turn adds another incentive to exclusivity as they use Select as the farm team for Amazon Publishing. They might scrap page reads if it drove authors away from the farm team. Kindle Store is a supermarket that realised they make more money selling their own brand products. Only Randy House Penguin outsell Amazon on the Kindle Store.


One thing I learned on the Konrath blog (perhaps something that was obvious to everyone else but I'm rather new to all this and hadn't given it any thought) is that Amazon Publishing authors get a much smaller royalty percentage. No wonder Amazon are pushing them so much, we should expect their share of the market to grow and grow.


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## Seneca42

TheLass said:


> One thing I learned on the Konrath blog (perhaps something that was obvious to everyone else but I'm rather new to all this and hadn't given it any thought) is that Amazon Publishing authors get a much smaller royalty percentage. No wonder Amazon are pushing them so much, we should expect their share of the market to grow and grow.


I was shocked to hear this also. Goes to show the power of Amazon. It makes sense... I mean they are clearly throwing their marketing and algo weight behind their own book. So if you can sell 100 times more books at 50% the royalties per unit, who would say no to that? You still come out miles ahead, establish your reputation as an author, and everything else you write you go back to getting 70% on with a massive reader base to leverage.


----------



## Alan Petersen

Anarchist said:


> If you've ever worked for a large company, you would know it never works like that.
> 
> Issues are identified and *prioritized* for investigation and resolution.
> 
> Just because Bezos can hire his neighbor's code-savvy 15-year-old kid to find and fix an issue doesn't make doing so a viable solution. That's not how large companies work. That's how bootstrapped ventures work.
> 
> I think a lot of authors are caught in an echo chamber. They think the problems they're experiencing should take precedence over other issues Amazon is facing. Fact is, there are bigger issues right now with FBA (those of you who know big FBA sellers, ask them. They'll tell you). And like KDP, FBA is just one microcosm of the Amazon ecosystem.
> 
> Think about every facet of Amazon's business, from web services and cloud drive to Prime video and Dash. Now, consider the fact that there are probably daily issues that surface in every one of them. Assigning *QUALIFIED* resources to these issues is a challenge.
> 
> Issues with KDP may be a low priority.


I don't even know what's this thread is really about. I don't worry about things I can't control. So I tend to ignore these types of threads. But after 116 pages and it's still hanging around, I had to come snoop around. I only perused the last two pages and the OP. But your post made me chuckle.

I used to work as a business analyst for a big Fortune 100 company. I would take end-user needs for system changes, fixes, upgrades, etc. and write up the specs for the programmers. In the beginning, I could walk to the main programmer but then they put all these layers of "improvements" so that any change... even a quick tweak of the code, I had to write a business need/justification, fill out a long change/modification request form, then dial into a weekly cabal of managers and plead my case. Then they would it mull it over, review my paperwork, and decide if my request would make it into the monthly cycle were the programmers would make changes.

If I didn't put in my request in time or if the allotted hours available of IT work for that month was already used, I would have to wait until the next month. Or even if I was in time, if the cabal deemed it minor, it might take months for the work to be done.

If it was an emergency, it better be Defcon 2 type issue, because if you cry wolf too much it goes against you in your yearly review. So of course, unless a problem is going to shut down a production line or cost the company millions, you did not go there. If it cost suppliers or outside vendors issues, big deal.

I would chuckle with the programmers when I would go over to their desk and ask about the work, they would say they could fix right it away, but of course they couldn't do that because they had to go through their own red tape. And the IT managers would always pad the hours so if the programmers said it would take them one hour of work, the managers would come back and put three hours.

Amazon is an even larger behemoth than the company I worked for, so yeah, this idea that they can hire an intern to "take care" of the supposed issues, just not gonna happen... ever. I'm glad I don't work in that world anymore. And I just dealt with internal stuff. I can't imagine having to deal with customers, publishers, writers, emailing their solutions all the time.


----------



## Alan Petersen

How it works.


----------



## Crystal_

TheLass said:


> One thing I learned on the Konrath blog (perhaps something that was obvious to everyone else but I'm rather new to all this and hadn't given it any thought) is that Amazon Publishing authors get a much smaller royalty percentage. No wonder Amazon are pushing them so much, we should expect their share of the market to grow and grow.


Apub is essentially tradpub. This is completely normal for tradpub. I can't speak for the other Apub branches, but Montlake only puts out a small handful of books compared to all romance titles. I don't see them taking over the charts anytime soon.


----------



## Anarchist

Alan Petersen said:


> I used to work as a business analyst for a big Fortune 100 company.


I _thought_ that was you down the hall.

Seriously, we probably worked for the same company.


----------



## unkownwriter

WasAnn said:


> Ruby's info is basically a copy of what everyone of us received. I'll admit that being on the phone makes one feel like there's progress, but after hanging up and processing the info...well...there was no info. Not even an admission.
> 
> At this point, I'm agreeing with several others here.
> 
> Initial input: We Know There is a Problem-->We know that _they_ know we find KU issues a problem.
> 
> Track 1:
> They do not understand the depth of the problem
> or
> They do not find the data an actual problem because this was intended.
> 
> Track 2:
> They completely understand the depth of the problem and find it an acceptable side effect of something they've put in place
> or
> They cannot ever completely understand the depth of the problem because they are looking only at individuals and huge aggregates, rather that seeking the source of the problem and it takes too much manpower to try and do that. Not enough decent mid-listers left KU as a result, so they'll never work it out.
> 
> Track 3:
> The problem only actually exists for some people and they know why, but find it an acceptable side effect
> or
> The problem only actually exists for some people and they can't parse out why these people are being impacted, but can't admit that.
> 
> No matter which way we slice it, it is unlikely that Amazon is on the "dunno" side of all such options. That means the most likely scenario is that they are absolutely and 100% sure about both what's happening and why it's happening.
> 
> *Yeah, I don't believe for a minute Amazon isn't aware of what's been happening. If nothing else, someone reads this board over there. They could hardly have missed this thread.
> 
> Judging by the adoration and jubilation that met KUv2, I suspect they thought people would be happy to have something being done about the scam books, and either not notice the other things, or think it was just them (like I did, until I started seeing others having the same issues) and not connect anything.*
> 
> Based on some of the informal research and tallies, I'm going to double-down on my previous assertions:
> 
> 1) This was a trial run for KU3 and some books ticked over the new automated scam book detector, which implements penalties on visibility in order to suppress said books.
> 
> *I've seen plenty of people over the last few months complaining that perma free and free doesn't work like it used to. Getting a "borrow" doesn't seem to have the same rank boost it once did, also.*
> 
> 2) Some authors (with certain sales, familiarity, or longevity) are on a white-list of sorts that will automatically ignore their books and not flag, hence, the strange lack of impact to some authors. Strangely, it is often those with actual personal contacts at Zon who are not impacted...or, in my case, are suddenly UNimpacted after making contact.
> 
> *This totally explains why there are some who insist there's nothing wrong, because nothing is wrong, for them. And I'll add, not yet. Because we don't know if this won't change in the future, and then we'll be expected to help them cry in their beer. Being a "big" author at Amazon doesn't mean anything. I've seen more than one five or six figure a month author suddenly fall out of favor with Amazon, and then the gnashing and wailing starts.*
> 
> 3) KU3 (my humble guesses based on limited data) involves anti-scam measures and also Free Promo suppression (which may or may not have meant to include KU Free Promos, but was definitely meant to penalty permafrees). It is meant to suppress any page reads that tick off the scam algo, which would include reads during free promos. It is also meant to diminish the impact and reach of outside newsletter promos, while enhancing those that Amazon (and Goodreads, more on that later), promote. It is meant to bounce up those with social proofing early, and punish those books without sufficient social proof, getting back to the Amazon roots a bit. It is meant to diminish sharp bounces.
> 
> *I wonder about that reads during a free promo. I had that a few months back, just before things started to go wrong for me. Of course, I have nowhere near enough page reads to trigger any sort of spam alert, so it's a head scratcer.
> 
> This falls into what I said, that Amazon wants to filter books in Select without having to a) put human hands in it and b) not have to say to people they don't qualify. It makes sense that they want quality books for readers to remain in the program, but they don't want the bad press when people start complaining about being locked out of the program.*
> 
> 4) Gaining white list status was not worked out well before hand. More than likely an algo was used that had some serious fails. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a whole lot of folks were spending time adding authors manually once things went bad.
> 
> *One of those Third World CS people messed up. The data entry guy was lazy that day and skipped some names. Could be anything, or a combination. Likely, it wasn't foreseen that so many people would start comparing notes and catch on.*
> 
> 5) KU3 trial was a mixed bag in results and has been rolled back to some extent. They'll try again.
> 
> *That would explain why some of us are seeing rebounds, especially if they've let the enrollment expire. It could be a way to get us to sign up again, and in a few months we probably won't notice when the upgrade restarts.*
> 
> At this point, it all boils down to decisions we as authors have to make individually for our businesses. Bottom line.
> 
> I think Zon seriously underestimates how very carefully authors examine numbers. I think they realize a few wildly successful people do and figure that why they're successful, but didn't really count on us unknown millions doing the same. They aren't going to admit anything, particularly if this was part of an anti-scam KU3 update. It all comes down to the goals and aims of each author.
> 
> Right now, my trust is very low. KU3 was harsh...then suddenly, it wasn't for me anymore. Such a thing irritates me and erodes trust further. Sure, somehow I got off this hades-train, but that shouldn't happen. We should all be off it if we're honest and that they consider this an okay impact, is uncool.
> 
> But, yeah, I'm still all-in. Why? Because I tried to go wide and couldn't get long term traction even with bookbubs. Without making personal contacts at Google and Apple and B&N to work out placement, it's simply not worth it. And if it requires personal contact, then the platform is hosed.


WaAnn said it better than I did, so I wanted to quote her post in its entirity. Anyone who missed it should read it and take note. It's not a few whiny low-earning authors complaining, it's people who are losing serious income (and my losses are very serious to me, small as they may seem to some). There are issues, and whatever the reasons, they are impacting people who haven't done anything wrong.



PaulineMRoss said:


> It's really disappointing to see anyone at this stage still denying there's a problem. Data Guy I can excuse, because he's looking at big numbers and the overall picture, but anyone who's read this thread would know that some individuals, who monitor their numbers very carefully, have lost up to 90% of their page reads overnight. That is NOT a tweaked algorithm or the result of waning interest in a genre or increasing quality or reader discernment in the marketplace, and frankly it's offensive to suggest it is.


It is offensive, Pauline. The people who want to put it off as a few complainers, people who are causing their own problems for whatever reason, or how ever they want to justify it are doing a disservice to their fellow authors, who are trying to make a go of this writing thing just as they are. Some of us may not be as successful, we may not have an Amazon rep, or a huge mailing list or get written up in the papers, but we are still worthy of being listened to.



ShaneJeffery said:


> I just had a read of Konrath's blogger comments ... And all I come away with is that he has not read through this thread. He only can see as far as his own page reads not being affected, plus provides zingers such as "Amazon doesn't have a history of screwing authors. They have a history of overpaying authors." Using the fact that short story authors made money with KU1 & that scammers cleaned up on KU2 as examples.
> 
> One of his actual presumptions to why people are seeing page reductions is that Amazon were overreporting in the months before.
> 
> Others joining in the conversation provided some serious elitism and contempt for smaller authors starting out.


I hope you weren't surprised by the elitism, because it's been around for a long time. I've seen it too often, and done by people who most others look up to as shining lights of the indie publishing world.

Remember when KUv2 came around, and there was the equivalent of dancing in the street? Now those scammy short story writers -- especially the ones who wrote that nasty erotica -- were going to get cut down to size! Oh, yeah. No more $1.35 for short stories.

I can't help but note the irony that now the scammers are putting up 3K word "books" and getting *$13.50* a read. There's some math in there about how much more they're getting now, while my income shrank in the opposite direction.

If I sound bitter, it's because I am. With good reason, too. Whether some want to admit it or not, there's a huge difference between authors Amazon wants to boost and the rest of us. It's gotten to the point where it's so much more difficult to break into the big sales, which is to be expected in a way, because so many people are publishing their stuff, but when Amazon steps in and fiddles with stuff to knock some down (and they have their own imprints now, so you have to know they going to be boosted above all) while standing by and letting people flat out cheat them out of millions of dollars, you have to wonder what the big picture is.

Some one said we have to decide whether staying in KU is to our benefit. I'm afraid for a lot of us, that answer is "no". I'm going to try to build up sales on other platforms, because Amazon hasn't left me much choice. Either way, I may sell nothing, but at least I'm trying, instead of hoping this was all some coder's mistake and it will be straightened out in a year or so.


----------



## JETaylor

Alan Petersen said:


> I don't even know what's this thread is really about. I don't worry about things I can't control. So I tend to ignore these types of threads. But after 116 pages and it's still hanging around, I had to come snoop around. I only perused the last two pages and the OP. But your post made me chuckle.
> 
> I used to work as a business analyst for a big Fortune 100 company. I would take end-user needs for system changes, fixes, upgrades, etc. and write up the specs for the programmers. In the beginning, I could walk to the main programmer but then they put all these layers of "improvements" so that any change... even a quick tweak of the code, I had to write a business need/justification, fill out a long change/modification request form, then dial into a weekly cabal of managers and plead my case. Then they would it mull it over, review my paperwork, and decide if my request would make it into the monthly cycle were the programmers would make changes.
> 
> If I didn't put in my request in time or if the allotted hours available of IT work for that month was already used, I would have to wait until the next month. Or even if I was in time, if the cabal deemed it minor, it might take months for the work to be done.
> 
> If it was an emergency, it better be Defcon 2 type issue, because if you cry wolf too much it goes against you in your yearly review. So of course, unless a problem is going to shut down a production line or cost the company millions, you did not go there. If it cost suppliers or outside vendors issues, big deal.
> 
> I would chuckle with the programmers when I would go over to their desk and ask about the work, they would say they could fix right it away, but of course they couldn't do that because they had to go through their own red tape. And the IT managers would always pad the hours so if the programmers said it would take them one hour of work, the managers would come back and put three hours.
> 
> Amazon is an even larger behemoth than the company I worked for, so yeah, this idea that they can hire an intern to "take care" of the supposed issues, just not gonna happen... ever. I'm glad I don't work in that world anymore. And I just dealt with internal stuff. I can't imagine having to deal with customers, publishers, writers, emailing their solutions all the time.


Process improvements at its best. I still work as a business analyst in a major player in the insurance industry, so yes. This is the way project management and business as usual fixes have evolved. From lean get it done attitude that was able to swing on a dime when issues came up to the process overload where nothing really gets addressed. And the front lines are usually not kept in the loop. It's become a bureaucratic nightmare, and considering so many these days are modeling what Amazon has in place, it seems like this is an issue in their shop as well.

I am no longer putting all my eggs in the Amazon basket because up until this point, I had thought they were much more agile in addressing issues, but it seems they may be stepping into this same process improvement mindset, which in my opinion, is just a dirty word for bureaucracy.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Alan Petersen said:


> I don't even know what's this thread is really about. I don't worry about things I can't control. So I tend to ignore these types of threads. But after 116 pages and it's still hanging around, I had to come snoop around. I only perused the last two pages and the OP. But your post made me chuckle.
> 
> I used to work as a business analyst for a big Fortune 100 company. I would take end-user needs for system changes, fixes, upgrades, etc. and write up the specs for the programmers. In the beginning, I could walk to the main programmer but then they put all these layers of "improvements" so that any change... even a quick tweak of the code, I had to write a business need/justification, fill out a long change/modification request form, then dial into a weekly cabal of managers and plead my case. Then they would it mull it over, review my paperwork, and decide if my request would make it into the monthly cycle were the programmers would make changes.
> 
> If I didn't put in my request in time or if the allotted hours available of IT work for that month was already used, I would have to wait until the next month. Or even if I was in time, if the cabal deemed it minor, it might take months for the work to be done.
> 
> If it was an emergency, it better be Defcon 2 type issue, because if you cry wolf too much it goes against you in your yearly review. So of course, unless a problem is going to shut down a production line or cost the company millions, you did not go there. If it cost suppliers or outside vendors issues, big deal.
> 
> I would chuckle with the programmers when I would go over to their desk and ask about the work, they would say they could fix right it away, but of course they couldn't do that because they had to go through their own red tape. And the IT managers would always pad the hours so if the programmers said it would take them one hour of work, the managers would come back and put three hours.
> 
> Amazon is an even larger behemoth than the company I worked for, so yeah, this idea that they can hire an intern to "take care" of the supposed issues, just not gonna happen... ever. I'm glad I don't work in that world anymore. And I just dealt with internal stuff. I can't imagine having to deal with customers, publishers, writers, emailing their solutions all the time.


I worked in an environment like that once. Drove me to drink. It's the only thing I'm indebted to it for.

(yeah, that's a paraphrase of W. C. Fields)


----------



## Anarchist

Good analysis by TwistedTales. And in my opinion, full of sound predictions regarding what's to come.


----------



## Jill Nojack

TheLass said:


> One thing I learned on the Konrath blog (perhaps something that was obvious to everyone else but I'm rather new to all this and hadn't given it any thought) is that Amazon Publishing authors get a much smaller royalty percentage. No wonder Amazon are pushing them so much, we should expect their share of the market to grow and grow.


Amazon authors also get paid that share of the royalty (50%) for KU borrows. That usually works out better for the author than the KENP. However, we do get paid the "average royalty for the month", so in those months where there is a huge pricing promotion, the payout it is actually less than KENP. The one thing I do like about it, though, is that it "KU proofs" the book.

My point is that, in general, when an Amazon-published book is borrowed and read, the cost to Amazon is higher than if the book was self published.


----------



## Seneca42

she-la-ti-da said:


> Some one said we have to decide whether staying in KU is to our benefit. I'm afraid for a lot of us, that answer is "no". I'm going to try to build up sales on other platforms, because Amazon hasn't left me much choice. Either way, I may sell nothing, but at least I'm trying, instead of hoping this was all some coder's mistake and it will be straightened out in a year or so.


This is a great thing though  If those of us experiencing problems are correct, gotta think two or three years down the road. Eventually the squeeze amazon is putting on indies will get even tighter. It's clear that not enough indies will raise a stink about this to bother amazon, so they'll learn the wrong lesson from this (ie. that they can do whatever they want). People will wake up when things get bad for them (if it happens) and scramble to get wide. But it will take time to build wide, whereas you'll already have done so.

So I view all this as a blessing in disguise. Heck, I suspected being in KU was cannibalizing my direct sales. Already seeing my direct sales tick up after only unenrolling one book less than a week ago (the rest come out end of Dec, early Jan).

Nothing wrong with leaving the beach early when someone yells Tsunami  They may be enjoying the beach longer than you, but you'll be glad you did when the tsuanmi hits (and if it doesn't hit, oh well, good for them. The smart thing was still to get out of dangers way).


----------



## tommy gun

Kelli,  I would bet a lot of writers are not aware of page flip and other issues.
Why bail or complain if they aren't on kboards or one of the other forums that is discussing the issue?
After all, everyone knows that books don't work out and fall off lists all the time right?


----------



## Seneca42

TwistedTales said:


> Funny thing though, today I got an email from a fan who is in KU. I blogged stating our next release won't be available through KU and she assured me would buy my books anyway. She also asked if KU was unfair to authors and if it was then she would dump her subscription. This is the reputational damage Amazon are ignoring. I've a theory that KU is losing subscribers for all sorts of reasons and that'll be one of them. At the end of the day, it's the person who stumps up the cash, namely the reader, that'll dictate the game.


I think your analysis was bang on. The only variable not there (and which no one can predict) is what impact reader and author behavior has on the competitive landscape. If indies start going wide does that spark investment by Kobo and B&N and others to up their game when they see a competitive opportunity to seize discontent with Amazon? Does Walmart step into this at some point? Does a player that doesn't even exist spring up in two years? Do readers get sick of KU because for every good book there are 25 bad ones?

I know in Canada, everyone has a kobo (well, 45% of the market is kobo) and many hate amazon. Perhaps that's why I see them as less impervious than folks in the US might see them... it's by no means impossible to very quickly crash and burn in a world where people have options (no matter how big you are).


----------



## RedAlert

Ebook Itch said:


> Well, that Russian Coder had 80,000+ fake accounts on one server. Then a week or two later "Clever Man" and the Goat Books steamed into the top 100 of Amazon without any problems. I do think Amazon is slowly taking care of the problem (like Google in the early days of SEO.)


I don't think they are taking care of the problem. I've faithfully kept up with this thread, and don't see any improvement. I agree that Amazon knows what's going on and is hiding it. I see the point of not blabbing about a problem, but that goes hand in hand with fixing the problem. This has gone on too long. I agree that it is either KU3, or there was an unintended consequence that they have adopted.

I am still trying to become an author and have studied marketing on KB, taking in each story of success or failure, and trying to at least lay out a pathway to follow. While I reserve the right to change my mind, at this moment it isn't looking too good for KU, which grieves me much. But, it seems like a losing proposition.

Someone else on this thread mentioned that you wouldn't want to work for someone who paid you when they felt like it. That seems to be what is continuing to happen. I mean, what's up with getting paid as you exit? You tick the box to leave KU and suddenly you get money? That to me is just a system designed to jerk you around.

I am now looking into how to function outside of KU while still existing in the Amazon marketplace in a least frustrating mode. I have adjusted my expectations down to almost nothing, really, and just gonna write for myself, something I have to do. But, I will state that I do want to be paid on a per unit basis, not just when an algorithm decides to pay me.


----------



## Seneca42

RedAlert said:


> Someone else on this thread mentioned that you wouldn't want to work for someone who paid you when they felt like it. That seems to be what is continuing to happen. I mean, what's up with getting paid as you exit? You tick the box to leave KU and suddenly you get money? That to me is just a system designed to jerk you around.


that was me.

I think a better way I could have expressed the sentiment though would have been to say... in the direct sale marketplace YOU own the customer. Amazon is merely the middleman who takes a cut.

In KU, it's Amazon that owns the customer, YOU are merely the middleman who provides the content. Amazon becomes your boss, whereas in direct sales you are Amazon's partner and you're the boss of your own business (you set your prices, not them... unlike KU where they set the price and decide which books get the most visibility and whatever else... it's THEIR business, you just work there).

Or that's how I've come to see it now.

.


----------



## Ebook Itch

Seneca42 said:


> Does a player that doesn't even exist spring up in two years? Do readers get sick of KU because for every good book there are 25 bad ones?


I've wondered a while now when Facebook is going to get into the game. I mean, most people have their app on their phone already, so it wouldn't be hard to deliver them content. And tons of authors spend a LOT of money on FB ads to push traffic to Amazon. Facebook started up instant articles a while back, which pays writers of the article, so they already have the skeleton of a system - and billions of eyeballs daily.

I'm also waiting to see what Apple does. They bought BookLamp over 2 years ago.

https://techcrunch.com/2014/07/25/apple-booklamp/
http://airshipdaily.com/blog/07292014-booklamp-apple
http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/25/apple-acquires-startup-booklamp-for-between-10m-to-15m-
http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2013/visualizing-the-data-of-stephen-king/

If Apple came out with a way to more easily discover the next book to read and tied it to a KU-type subscription, they might have a winner.

Many people have been complaining about Amazon search and book discoverability for a while now.

Discoverability is one of the next big problems that need to be solved with so much content being published every single day...

https://gigaom.com/2013/01/17/why-online-book-discovery-is-broken-and-how-to-fix-it/


----------



## RipleyKing

Why did people's page reads suddenly go down the toilet?

You can read a book in PageFlip.

PageFlip was designed not to count a page as being read.

Amazon admits that PageFlip was designed that way, calling it a navigation tool only, yet even their own YouTube adverts show exactly how you can read a book in PageFlip, as it is clearly more than just a navigation tool, but an *enhanced reading experience!*

It was obviously designed to scr*w you out of your money, yet you're not supposed to know it. Now that you do, Amazon denies it.

People on this thread are questioning their sales numbers, too, and for good reason. Let's not forget that. They stated reasons for that.

None of their numbers are adding up the way they like. They used to add up, but now they don't.

Some complain and *seem* to be fixed, other complain and they're not fixed. Amazon for them, is still broken. Are you really fixed? Did they just make you happy while still possibly skimming from the top?

Nothing is going to be fixed by Amazon, because it isn't broken. They keep telling us that, over and over again. This IS the new norm!

The elitist smoke being blown up our butts IS insulting. We have no clue. We're booktards. We just suck.

They're right, and we're wrong, again!

Only, that's not true. We know that's not true.

From the very beginning (2010) Amazon has stacked the deck in their favor, and again and again small writers such as myself have watched their sales tank with each new innovation, where you had to pay to play.

Some of us never seem to recover, it's called singing those fixed income blues, where even $10.00 a month can be hard to scrape up, and that's what hurts most of all. Because readers for me are few and far between, according to the elite, I simply must suck. I was singled out by name by them, more than once. Their yes men and women piled on. How does it feel, fellow booktards? Shall we all suck together?

At least they haven't singled you out by name, over and over.

Only, this board provided, and still provides real answers for real problems. How to start from zero, and work your way up. How to do it with nothing in the bank, and still work your way up. But, and it's a big but, you may find going wide is better than Amazon. I don't think Amazon likes us that much anymore.

I'm not great, but I like to think I know what I'm doing when it comes to writing a story. I'm not a popcorn read, using the term loosely, I admit that. My new pen name, Nikki Blood writes literary serial, xxx erotica, and it's selling, but I doubt I would even move one unit at Amazon.

My other books (sixteen of them) are just now starting to be noticed, and I pulled everything out of Amazon. I unpublished them all, me at the very bottom with nothing to lose, and I'm now wide, and I'm now selling books. I sold five last week. I sold three books all this year with Amazon . . . I never really had page reads, just a mild case of the bumps. 

I got over them. 

I still have work to do to expand my distribution nodes.

My one ad: 33,000 impressions, 16 clicks, and I spent $4.00 USD so far this month. I have $11.00 left in my ad account. It started the third of this month with just $15 USD. I'm being seen around the world, the only way I can be seen. I have an affiliate link to them on my blog, just Google me, and if you like their program and would do me the courtesy . . .

I made ten dollars more than I did this entire last year with Amazon. Or, I made $10 these last two months, or when I cut ties with Amazon and decided I have had enough.

I don't trust Amazon to sell even one book directly from me, based on everything I've read in this thread, and other threads, as Amazon keeps lowering the profits to what? Zero? Be grateful we even let you publish in the first place?

Charge us to publish? Pay a yearly fee to keep our books on their database? Oops, that's Lightning Source. Maybe a couple of others most of us DON'T USE! For obvious reasons.

Make up your own minds, to be sure. Look to the history of Amazon, from 2010 on up. How the money we make just keeps going down and down with each new program and innovation. And, with them, it seems like if you can't pay, you can't play.

The elite can French my booty for all I care. I know I don't suck. I have confidence in my words.

Did I miss anything in boiling this down to the bottom line?

I feel so much better.


----------



## Ebook Itch

> "I very frequently get the question: 'What's going to change in the next 10 years?' And that is a very interesting question; it's a very common one. I almost never get the question: '*What's not going to change in the next 10 years?*' And I submit to you that that second question is actually the more important of the two - because you can build a business strategy around the things that are stable in time. ... In our retail business, we know that customers want low prices, and I know that's going to be true 10 years from now. They want fast delivery; they want vast selection. It's impossible to imagine a future 10 years from now where a customer comes up and says, 'Jeff I love Amazon; I just wish the prices were a little higher,'[or] 'I love Amazon; I just wish you'd deliver a little more slowly.' Impossible. And so the effort we put into those things, spinning those things up, we know the energy we put into it today will still be paying off dividends for our customers 10 years from now. When you have something that you know is true, even over the long term, you can afford to put a lot of energy into it."


http://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-brilliant-advice-for-anyone-running-a-business-2015-1

So, for writers, his advice would boil down to make the readers happy. It only takes 1,000 "true fans" to be able to write full-time. And that's a marvelous thing. KU/KDP has changed in the past and will continue changing.

In the past, only those select few who got through the gatekeepers (publishers) were able to eek out an existence as a writer. These days, many more writers are able to supplement their income or even go full-time with writing.

We're seeing some of the effects of Amazon, Smashwords, et al monetizing the slush pile of old. So many changes have happened in the last couple years alone in the publishing industry, and many more are coming, I imagine.

The one thing that won't change is making readers happy and setting up a way to communicate with them directly - i.e. building a mailing list. (The money is in the list!)

Amazon seems to be striving toward finding a way to find the nuggets in the slush pile and reward people who consistently make readers happy. It's going to take some time to perfect it, but I see them heading in the right direction.

In the early days of Google, it was easy to game their search engine algos. They spawned a whole new industry - SEO. Gradually, over time, they learned how to make it harder to game their system. Amazon is doing the same.

And like Google, I think they try to automate the processes as much as possible with machine learning, etc. in order to keep costs low and make it easier to scale.

In my opinion, we've been looking at KU 3.0 (unnamed and unannounced) and have been since August of this year (if not earlier).

Anyone know how many people/companies are self-publishing in total?


----------



## tresero

What many of you I think are overlooking in the "Amazon can go down" arena is hardware.

At least in the US, Kindle is king. Even if you don't own a Kindle, you can get the app for just about everything. Kobo? Kobo who? (just saying, I've never even seen one). Nook, well we saw how that turned out.

There needs to be some hardware company (Apple?) that doesn't really consider books a primary income source except to sell hardware. Right now, you can't really sell books off your site. At least not without manual intervention. So if a fan wants to buy from your website, you have to either use something like bookfunnel, or send directions about adding email to your account, sending an @kindle.com email address, blah blah blah.

That's not to say it can't or won't happen, but as long as Amazon owns both hardware and content, it will be very difficult for someone to break into the market. Open source won't work on hardware, you still need deep pockets to manufacture and advertise.

Just something else to think about.


----------



## 75845

tresero said:


> At least in the US, Kindle is king. Even if you don't own a Kindle, you can get the app for just about everything. Kobo? Kobo who? (just saying, I've never even seen one). Nook, well we saw how that turned out.
> ...
> Just something else to think about.


Yes the ability to use apps are something to think about, like apps for Kobo and Nook. For those who still like ereaders the Nooks are in Barnes and Nobles stores and Nook was doing very well until Amazon came up with Select. Android phones and iPhones tend to come preinstalled with apps for the manufacturers ebook service. There is plenty of scope for others to step in if Amazon starts shedding exclusive authors. After all what are those Oyster guys doing at Google?


----------



## AlecHutson

Joseph Malik said:


> I have days exactly like this. Yesterday was one.
> 
> 2 sales, 5 clickthrus, 1 KENP. The day before, I had 1300 KENP with 4 clickthrus and 2 sales; a good day, but normal for a good day. But the day before that I had 637 KENP at 0500 when I went out for my run, and not another KENP all day. Really? People just stopped reading my book at around 4 AM? Really?
> 
> I'm telling you, there's a glitch in the routine that updates the KENP. It appears that sometimes it fails to update, and the next time -- assuming it works the next time -- you get whatever reads have happened since the update that they missed. It doesn't aggregate. On the days when I have single or double-digits, the KENP doesn't appear to refresh at all, all day; at 2300 last night I still had 1 KENP, the same as I had at 0445. Freakin' ONE.
> 
> A few days ago I had 13 at 0500 and not another page read all day, even though I had clickthrus and sales.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the KENP update feature is broken.


I've come to the same conclusion about reads being delayed or bunching after having been in KDP for two weeks. The swings are just too wild. The last six days reads on my book have been 4100, 1000, 2800, 3600, 600, 2200. I don't really care as long everything is being reported. I guess the fear is that on those days where reads are 20-25% of the other days that they're not actually going into the system. I mean, clearly people are working their way through my book, given what's happening on other days. I can't imagine that 80% of them stop reading on Wed and pick it up again on Fri.


----------



## Seneca42

tresero said:


> That's not to say it can't or won't happen, but as long as Amazon owns both hardware and content, it will be very difficult for someone to break into the market. Open source won't work on hardware, you still need deep pockets to manufacture and advertise.
> 
> Just something else to think about.


Of course, this is the reason why everyone agrees that amazon looks unstoppable. But that's also how unstoppable companies fall, when they think there's no threat. In today's tech world, anyone can mount a threat in no time at all. The only thing stopping them is they either don't see the ROI they'd like OR they don't feel like facing off against Amazon.

The ROI is the big problem.

Just out of fun speculation, my guess would be the challenge wouldn't come from a single vendor but rather some kind of partnership. Walmart would lead the charge and pair with the other ebook companies. Walmart is Amazon's direct competitor, and they are the one's with the deep pockets to mount a real challenge... but they lack the expertise, which is where nook, kobo, etc. come in. All their readers would be sold in Walmart, maybe free $10-20 book card with them, plus an online Walmart bookstore (which then lead into walmarts attempts to build an online estore, which doesn't seem to be working so well yet).

Point is, literally, in 6-12 months Amazon could find itself with the entire industry bearing down on it through Walmart with a ton of angry authors who feel they were mistreated swarming to the new offer (ie. some Walmart exclusivity program like KU).

All I'm saying, it's easy to see Amazon as unbeatable and unstoppable when no one is challenging them. If someone mounts said challenge, it can change very very fast.

Hence why it's always a bad business decision to play with your reputation, because you just never know what's coming down the pike.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Seneca42 said:


> Point is, literally, in 6-12 months Amazon could find itself with the entire industry bearing down on it through Walmart with a ton of angry authors who feel they were mistreated swarming to the new offer (ie. some Walmart exclusivity program like KU).


Not to be difficult, but what percentage of authors who regularly have books in the top 5000 (mostly what Amazon cares about) are angry enough to sign on with Walmart? My guess is we're talking authors of less than 10% of those books. Don't get me wrong, I don't assume Amazon will always be on top. But we have got to stop any conclusions about the number of impacted/angry authors based on anything except hard data. As I noted earlier, even KU itself is something I believe Amazon would jettison and not think twice if too many authors jumped ship and they felt they didn't want to pay more. Yes, it makes customers more sticky but it's not big enough for Walmart to jump in with both feet and try to counter. As bad as the problems are with KU, my read on the overall situation is that very few authors that Amazon really "needs" are impacted enough to do anything drastic.


----------



## Jill Nojack

Seneca42 said:


> Point is, literally, in 6-12 months Amazon could find itself with the entire industry bearing down on it through Walmart with a ton of angry authors who feel they were mistreated swarming to the new offer (ie. some Walmart exclusivity program like KU).
> 
> All I'm saying, it's easy to see Amazon as unbeatable and unstoppable when no one is challenging them. If someone mounts said challenge, it can change very very fast.


Amazon depends on their hardware being the big draw to keep people in the Kindle environment, so they make it inconvenient to buy books from other stores. But if a competitor created a simple program that placed downloaded files directly on to the Kindle device (basically just moving them into the correct directory on that device and then advising the reader it is synched), the problem is no longer a problem. The only way Amazon could prevent this is to prevent people from moving books onto their Kindles from their PCs, other locations on their tablet, etc. Suddenly, buying from other stores isn't as inconvenient as it was, but if Amazon prevents moving books from other sources to the device, customers would have a problem with it.


----------



## Seneca42

edwardgtalbot said:


> But we have got to stop any conclusions about the number of impacted/angry authors based on anything except hard data.


this made me chuckle  How do we get hard data? Has anyone considered emailing Amazon and asking? (hehe, sorry, just having a little fun).


----------



## H.C.

I noticed on my book's page it says "page flip *enabled*"

Shouldn't I just request for this to be disabled? And we can see what happens?


----------



## tresero

Herefortheride said:


> I noticed on my book's page it says "page flip *enabled*"
> 
> Shouldn't I just request for this to be disabled? And we can see what happens?


What do you use for formatting?

If it's jutoh, you can follow this tutorial. (nothing for sale)

http://indieauthorspot.com/articles/jutoh-page-flip-hack


----------



## H.C.

Why don't we all send emails to Amazon requesting pageflip to be disabled for our select titles? Should add mega money to our coffers!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Jill Nojack said:


> Amazon depends on their hardware being the big draw to keep people in the Kindle environment, so they make it inconvenient to buy books from other stores. But if a competitor created a simple program that placed downloaded files directly on to the Kindle device (basically just moving them into the correct directory on that device and then advising the reader it is synched), the problem is no longer a problem. The only way Amazon could prevent this is to prevent people from moving books onto their Kindles from their PCs, other locations on their tablet, etc. Suddenly, buying from other stores isn't as inconvenient as it was, but if Amazon prevents moving books from other sources to the device, customers would have a problem with it.


Someone has already invented that--Amazon. It's called "Send to Kindle." I can use it to send DRM free books to my Kindle. It will convert them to the appropriate format and they will be available for any of my devices.

There also is (or was) Calibre which will take books, convert them to the Kindle format and save them to your Kindle. I haven't tried it. It's so much easier to just buy from Amazon....



Herefortheride said:


> Why don't we all send emails to Amazon requesting pageflip to be disabled for our select titles? Should add mega money to our coffers!


Because it will annoy the readers who use pageflip?

Betsy


----------



## H.C.

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Someone has already invented that--Amazon. It's called "Send to Kindle." I can use it to send DRM free books to my Kindle. It will convert them to the appropriate format and they will be available for any of my devices.
> 
> There also is (or was) Calibre which will take books, convert them to the Kindle format and save them to your Kindle. I haven't tried it. It's so much easier to just buy from Amazon....
> 
> Because it will annoy the readers who use pageflip?
> 
> Betsy


I dont get paid for those reads. And if it would "annoy" them to have to read "correctly" then why should I be worried.

Ann- I'm not sure how much you read into these things but we are all losing money off of this. LOTS of money because of pageflip. Amazon is stealing from us.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Herefortheride said:


> I dont get paid for those reads. And if it would "annoy" them to have to read "correctly" then why should I be worried.
> 
> Ann- I'm not sure how much you read into these things but we are all losing money off of this. LOTS of money because of pageflip. Amazon is stealing from us.


Ann? Is that addressed to me? If so, despite popular opinion, Ann and I are not the same person. 

I'm saying that the solution is for Amazon to fix something that apparently is broken and that I understand it is connected to Page Flip, but that Amazon isn't going to screw with the reader experience if they can help it. I'll admit, I haven't read every post here, and I may have forgotten some of the earlier stuff in the thread. Page flip was introduced in June--has the problem existed since then, or did something else happen since then that, in conjunction with Page flip, caused the problem? Have people not been getting paid since June? I know there's a gap between earning royalties and getting paid for them.

EDIT: I should add that, I do believe contacting Amazon about the issue, as many as people as possible, is worth doing. I just don't think they'll disable page flip.


----------



## Guest

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Ann? Is that addressed to me? If so, despite popular opinion, Ann and I are not the same person.
> 
> I'm saying that the solution is for Amazon to fix something that apparently is broken and that I understand it is connected to Page Flip, but that Amazon isn't going to screw with the reader experience if they can help it. I'll admit, I haven't read every post here, and I may have forgotten some of the earlier stuff in the thread. Page flip was introduced in June--has the problem existed since then, or did something else happen since then that, in conjunction with Page flip, caused the problem? Have people not been getting paid since June? I know there's a gap between earning royalties and getting paid for them.
> 
> EDIT: I should add that, I do believe contacting Amazon about the issue, as many as people as possible, is worth doing. I just don't think they'll disable page flip.


Page Flip is unlikely to be connected to the post September decline in pages read, however Amazon have stated that readers do not use Page Flip to read books, so any pages read in page flip will not be counted. This runs counter to research which suggests a significant portion of readers do use page flip to read books. And if they're reading books they've borrowed in page flip, authors do not get paid for it.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

ShaneJeffery said:


> Page Flip is unlikely to be connected to the post September decline in pages read, however Amazon have stated that readers do not use Page Flip to read books, so any pages read in page flip will not be counted. This runs counter to research which suggests a significant portion of readers do use page flip to read books. And if they're reading books they've borrowed in page flip, authors do not get paid for it.


So I understand. Interesting that there are people who read that way. I would have said it wasn't common.

Betsy


----------



## H.C.

Betsy the Quilter said:


> So I understand. Interesting that there are people who read that way. I would have said it wasn't common.
> 
> Betsy


It's common and Amazon's own ads say using pageflip "is an enhanced *reading* experience".


----------



## 77071

TBH it's kind of hard not to.  At least on mine.  I constantly have to remember to change out of it if I'm reading in KU.  Whereas if I'm reading a book I paid for I don't bother since the "page count" doesn't matter.  :/


----------



## Gertie Kindle

HSh said:


> TBH it's kind of hard not to. At least on mine. I constantly have to remember to change out of it if I'm reading in KU. Whereas if I'm reading a book I paid for I don't bother since the "page count" doesn't matter. :/


I simply cancelled my KU subscription.


----------



## stevenbright

This is a good step forward for our efforts as authors. We must continue to cooperate.


----------



## Jill Nojack

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Someone has already invented that--Amazon. It's called "Send to Kindle." I can use it to send DRM free books to my Kindle. It will convert them to the appropriate format and they will be available for any of my devices.
> 
> There also is (or was) Calibre which will take books, convert them to the Kindle format and save them to your Kindle. I haven't tried it. It's so much easier to just buy from Amazon....


What I meant by this is that if another store put thier books directly into your device, then it would be no different than buying them from Amazon. I apologize. I thought that was what I said.

You wouldn't need to downlload them to send them. It would be instaneous. That is not a possibility at this time at any other store. It could, however, be coded right into their software, but all of the players had been hyper-focused on their own devices,. I use Calibre, I use send to Kindle. but until I can buy it on Kobo and get it straight into my Kindle device, it's not as convenient as buying it from Amazon.

I mostly read on my Aura H2O these days, though, so for me it's a moot point. It's easier to get the books from Calibre to that because I can do it wirelessly.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Ann in Arlington

RBN said:


> And screw everyone who _buys_ your book and is "annoyed" because they want to read it "incorrectly," too!
> 
> A "readers are the enemy" stance is profoundly self-defeating for a writer.


Yeah . . . that position doesn't endear me . . . and I'm purely a reader.

Regardless, I barely use page flip -- it is absolutely useful if you want to go back and check on something but, to read a whole book with it? I can't see the point. It's no easier -- harder actually on the Kindle -- and requires setting the print size up to be able to read the smaller pages that have other stuff in the back ground, which is distracting. I'm dead sure there are people that use it and use it for a whole book; I find it very hard to believe it's a majority of Kindle, Fire, or Kindle app users, or, even, a significant minority.


----------



## Guest

RBN said:


> And screw everyone who _buys_ your book and is "annoyed" because they want to read it "incorrectly," too!
> 
> A "readers are the enemy" stance is profoundly self-defeating for a writer.


There's a lot of books out there that don't have page flip enabled. I think I read somewhere vellum gets rid of it (as well as other formatting programs). So some authors have it figured out.

And on that note, why shouldn't they? We have to look out for ourselves. This isn't about "readers are the enemy". If Page Flip was counted as reads Authors wouldn't have any incentive to bypass the feature. Readers should be angry at Amazon, not authors.


----------



## 5ngela

Jill Nojack said:


> What I meant by this is that if another store put thier books directly into your device, then it would be no different than buying them from Amazon. I apologize. I thought that was what I said.
> 
> You wouldn't need to downlload them to send them. It would be instaneous. That is not a possibility at this time at any other store. It could, however, be coded right into their software, but all of the players had been hyper-focused on their own devices,. I use Calibre, I use send to Kindle. but until I can buy it on Kobo and get it straight into my Kindle device, it's not as convenient as buying it from Amazon.
> 
> I mostly read on my Aura H2O these days, though, so for me it's a moot point. It's easier to get the books from Calibre to that because I can do it wirelessly.


Personally I prefer to buy book on Kindle and send them to other ereaders. Right now I feel like I was "trapped" to use Kindle because I want to read book from Kindle Unlimited.


----------



## 77071

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I simply cancelled my KU subscription.


My subscription runs out in Feb and I doubt I'll be renewing.


----------



## H.C.

RBN said:


> And screw everyone who _buys_ your book and is "annoyed" because they want to read it "incorrectly," too!
> 
> A "readers are the enemy" stance is profoundly self-defeating for a writer.


You are twisting my words.

I'm not saying readers are the enemy at all. I'm saying pageflip should not be an option if it violates our contract (which it currently does). Page flip is not such an "annoyance" that the content producers should be cheated out of their royalties for the option of pageflip.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Seneca42 said:


> this made me chuckle  How do we get hard data? Has anyone considered emailing Amazon and asking? (hehe, sorry, just having a little fun).


Heh, I'm glad I produced a chuckle! Seriously, you and I disagree (I think) about the likelihood of Amazon being taken down by authors abandoning it for something better than comes along. But it's a "friendly" disagreement  I do think that it would be possible for Author Earnings to do a reasonable estimate of authors leaving KU. I'm not certain whether their raw data currently contains everything you'd need, nor have I taken the time to do the calculations. But their data collection method would certainly allow for it.


----------



## H.C.

ShaneJeffery said:


> There's a lot of books out there that don't have page flip enabled. I think I read somewhere vellum gets rid of it (as well as other formatting programs). So some authors have it figured out.
> 
> And on that note, why shouldn't they? We have to look out for ourselves. This isn't about "readers are the enemy". If Page Flip was counted as reads Authors wouldn't have any incentive to bypass the feature. Readers should be angry at Amazon, not authors.


This^^


----------



## Donna White Glaser

ShaneJeffery said:


> There's a lot of books out there that don't have page flip enabled. I think I read somewhere vellum gets rid of it (as well as other formatting programs). So some authors have it figured out.


Does Vellum get rid of Page Flip? And what are the other formatting options that may also do so?


----------



## Atunah

Jill Nojack said:


> What I meant by this is that if another store put thier books directly into your device, then it would be no different than buying them from Amazon. I apologize. I thought that was what I said.
> 
> You wouldn't need to downlload them to send them. It would be instaneous. That is not a possibility at this time at any other store. It could, however, be coded right into their software, but all of the players had been hyper-focused on their own devices,. I use Calibre, I use send to Kindle. but until I can buy it on Kobo and get it straight into my Kindle device, it's not as convenient as buying it from Amazon.
> 
> I mostly read on my Aura H2O these days, though, so for me it's a moot point. It's easier to get the books from Calibre to that because I can do it wirelessly.


Actually, there is a store that has it set up to buy books and have them directly send over wifi to your kindle. Allromance ebooks. It only works on non drm books of course, mobi and adobe acrobat. You must set up approved email addresses first in the kindle account for the kindles email address. After that its one click. There are issues. Since this is using Amazon's own cloud service, they have already removed this option for another store I can't recall the name off now. Because of course they end up footing the bill for books sold somewhere else. For the storage and using the system. ARe has had it for years now though so they must be ok with them. I still don't buy books there.

Because those books still will show up as docs on devices and 99 percent of the time won't have any cover attached to it. I have to fiddle with everything in calibre on docs to get a cover on it. So even though I know how to do all that, I still wouldn't buy books anywhere else. I am all about convenience and I want all my books in one place, looking exactly the same. Most people are all about convenience. They want to click a button and be done. 
Docs send to kindle are always separate from the books. Even in my account you have to go to the doc drop down to see them. So they are never exactly shown as regular books. Which makes them less to me and I wouldn't pay for it.

Its always been one of the joys of kindles. One doesn't have to fiddle with anything. You can sit on the balcony and buy a book, browse books, get samples. I can now go check out recs on goodreads and go straight to the store page from goodreads on my kindle. I can look up stuff I don't know on wikipedia. Its all there. I don't have to plug it into a computer at all. The only times I do that is when I do a manual update on my kindles, which I didn't have to do either. Otherwise, it never gets attached to it. I don't need to. If I have a webpage or recipe, I can use sendtokindle on it.

********************
Pretty much all books I have do have the page flip enabled I think. But its an extra step to get into it, but I can see if its there by the little icon on the bottom. Its actually 2 steps to get in so not something that happens by itself for me. It also looks horrible to read it, really bad. All that distracting icons, popups, borders, on tablets you get all the battery icons and all that if you are in it. I don't know of any readers that actually read in that. And I hang around readers all the time. But hey, it gets banded about that for some reason everyone likes to read in this ugly tiny mode one has to specially select. I am just a reader though, what do I know.


----------



## Becca Mills

Atunah said:


> Pretty much all books I have do have the page flip enabled I think. But its an extra step to get into it, but I can see if its there by the little icon on the bottom. Its actually 2 steps to get in so not something that happens by itself for me. It also looks horrible to read it, really bad. All that distracting icons, popups, borders, on tablets you get all the battery icons and all that if you are in it. I don't know of any readers that actually read in that. And I hang around readers all the time. But hey, it gets banded about that for some reason everyone likes to read in this ugly tiny mode one has to specially select. I am just a reader though, what do I know.


I read mostly on my phone these days, and I end up in Page Flip fairly frequently. It happens when I accidentally touch near the bottom of the screen -- just one brush against the screen down there will do it. Sometimes, if I'm wrapped up in the story, I don't notice for a while, even though the print has become teensy. I know that sounds weird, but hey, chalk it up to the power of good plotting! I've never had it happen on one of my Kindles, just in the phone app.


----------



## S.R.

Since this whole issue started, it's made me reevaluate my habits as an author and a reader. I've made some changes that may not make a difference in the bigger picture (to Amazon), but make me feel better anyway:

1) My KU subscription runs out next week. I'll buy my books from now on. I don't like that I've contributed to authors not getting paid by doing something as simple as switching back to the front of the book to check the "also by" list before closing the book. I just want to read, I don't want to have to worry about _how_ I read, and all of the ways that I might unknowingly cheat an author out of payment.

2) As a reader, I hate PageFlip. I read on my iPad and have a habit of tapping the screen when I read to check the time - which used to just light up the clock and header info. Now that same move I've always done jerks me into page flip mode. It's jarring and annoying and there's no way to turn it off! Which led to my 3rd decision....

3) I'm no longer a Kindle exclusive reader. I've been reading on a Kindle since Amazon released the very first version of the ereader...I've done it for so long, it didn't occur to me to switch...until I got so annoyed by PageFlip...and I realized I read on an iPad, why am I sticking with Kindle? I should be supporting other stores and helping to grow the competition. Now, if it's a book I want, and the author is wide, I buy on iBooks.

4) As an author, my books are now wide. I opted out of KU in October (which was the plan for the books enrolled at that time before this all came up). The original plan was to put my new series in, but I decided to stay out completely. It just made sense for me. Maybe I'll dabble with it again in the future - when I've got enough books to put a series in and keep most wide. Maybe. For now, Amazon's cavalier attitude and denials have left a bad taste in my mouth.


----------



## Atunah

Becca Mills said:


> I read mostly on my phone these days, and I end up in Page Flip fairly frequently. It happens when I accidentally touch near the bottom of the screen -- just one brush against the screen down there will do it. Sometimes, if I'm wrapped up in the story, I don't notice for a while, even though the print has become teensy. I know that sounds weird, but hey, chalk it up to the power of good plotting! I've never had it happen on one of my Kindles, just in the phone app.


I guess this is where I am confused. I have a few times read a few pages on my phone, android. Even long before there was a page flip. Its still exactly the same amount of steps before. If I accidentally touched the screen before it pulled up the font menu stuff on the top. It still does the same, with the added tiny popup in the middle now. So you touched the screen before, changed font, size, color or brightness and then touched again. Its still the same. The font in the popup is so tiny in that mode, I'd have to turn font up all the way. But most of all it is so very ugly. I don't know how to do a screenshot on my phone right now. But in addition to the tiny popup in the middle, I get a huge orange BUY FOR $1.99 button right above the popup, next to a big play button to add audible narration. That is on most books that have audible. It even puts the name of the narrator there. That huge orange button alone would startle me out of anything. Besides the fact that without changing the font larger, I couldn't make out words. And I already read at a further up size, but not that large. 
I also have bars on the bottom and all my phone icons show in that mode. Its the most hideous thing I have ever seen. Doesn't even look remotely like a book page at that point.


----------



## Carey Lewis

I read on my phone, a pretty old Android. The Kindle App barely works on it. I've read an entire book in Page Flip, mainly because I was getting tired of waiting for the next page to load and didn't have that problem in Page Flip. The font is a little smaller, but definitely not unreadable. I didn't have to wait for the next page to load because it was already there. I didn't find it inconvenient at all, it's just slightly worse than Kindle. My preference to read on my phone is Overdrive and Moon Reader. The Kindle App takes awhile to open and sometimes crashes. I guess my point is that I don't think I'm alone in thinking the app is too 'weighty' and if a faster way to go through a book comes along, people will take it.

Maybe it's different reading a KU book because I don't have KU so I don't see Audible or an orange box pop up.


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## 75845

I own a Kindle, but also a Kobo, and a Nook. In addition I have three versions of a retailer's product - Android devices for Google Play Books, who invented page flip for a system that lacks a pay per page read setup. I cheated slightly with those numbers as one of the androids is cleverly designed as a Nook. The Kobo Mini is my favourite and given the choice (and my annual payment to the Rakuten Kobo bonus scheme) I'll buy on Kobo unless the Kindle version is substantially cheaper. Being British I can no longer buy from Nook without flying to the United States. When on Google Play I love page flip when on my Kindle e-ink I can't use page flip, although I can on the Android or Windows apps.


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## tresero

Donna White Glaser said:


> Does Vellum get rid of Page Flip? And what are the other formatting options that may also do so?


If you use Jutoh, try this: http://indieauthorspot.com/articles/jutoh-page-flip-hack

Basically you just need to add an svg file somewhere in your document. Amazon will figure this out eventually, but for now, it works.

All my books are non-pageflip enabled, and I had a very slight increase in reads. I agree, and my survey of readers (way back in the thread towards the beginning), shows about 10% read in page flip, and remember, some readers confuse page flip with the look of pages when you swipe.

YMMV


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## KelliWolfe

I'm really beginning to think that this is a fraud detection system running haywire. The sales behavior during my promos makes absolutely no sense and is contrary to everything I've seen for the last five years. It only makes sense if Amazon is suppressing sales and borrows/page reads coming in through certain affiliate codes.

Is it possible that the scammers were using affiliate codes to somehow try to double dip, and Amazon is keying off of similar behavior to stop payouts? This might explain why people have reported much worse results through unsegmented lists than used to be the case, while segmented lists are still largely working as usual. The consensus here was they were mixing borrows/reads of legitimate books with those of their scam books to disguise their activity. We saw a lot of weirdness in our also-boughts which we assumed was because of this behavior. These guys were doing everything possible to squeeze extra money out of the game, so why not have their bots/farmers use affiliate codes to scrape up a little extra?

I don't have any sort of proof that anything of the sort is happening. I just know that I've been running various promos on two different pen names in two different genres with one set in KU and the other not, and the results on both are pointing to the same thing. Unfortunately it's just one set of data points. 

EDIT: Let me add that I don't think that this is the entire problem. It could not be responsible for the 90% losses some people are reporting. I'm just wondering if it's one piece of the puzzle.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

TheLass said:


> One thing I learned on the Konrath blog (perhaps something that was obvious to everyone else but I'm rather new to all this and hadn't given it any thought) is that Amazon Publishing authors get a much smaller royalty percentage. No wonder Amazon are pushing them so much, we should expect their share of the market to grow and grow.


I'm not surprised, and frankly that's okay. For their own books they pay for editing, covers, advertising etc., like any traditional publisher.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## KelliWolfe

Don't click on the download link. You need to *right* click on the download link and save it (Save Link As...). That will save the actual .SVG file. If you try to save the one on the page that opens up, you'll just get the JPG or PNG file that your browser renders from it.


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## tresero

Atlantisatheart said:


> I have a really stupid question (because putting me in front of a computer is like tossing someone out of a plane without a parachute) but when i click on that download link it comes up as a big page with a little drawing - is that normal? If that is normal (and I haven't missed a step), then how do I then download that, and if I mange that (which will be a Christmas miracle in itself) ... do I need to downsize? (Yes, I'm the techno version of Odie, I know - sigh.)


It's an svg file, it has no size per se. you probably missed a step.


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## SidK

TwistedTales said:


> Companies eventually kick the dogs out.


Now we know who lets the dogs out! 

I have come to believe the 'Page Reads' problem might be restricted to US KU or at least affecting it disproportionately. I am getting about equal number of (_or more!_) KENPC reads from UK, Aus, Ger and CA stores individually as from the US store. Strangely, Australia is leading for the number of reads.


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## John Anthony

On Friday evening I contacted KDP support and asked them to look into my recent KENP numbers. I've had decent reads on one of my novels since mid-November---it's a Christmas book---but my KENP numbers dropped to zero on Tuesday, and remained there all week. That prompted my message to support. 

I've silently followed this thread for a few weeks. Until Friday, I hadn't noticed an issue on my end, but have remained alert. Note that my books were both created using Vellum and Page Flip is NOT enabled. 

By late last night, I had not yet heard back from KDP support (still haven't), so I cancelled the KDP Select auto-renew option for both of my books. They'll now be out of KDP Select in February and I'll go wide using D2D. 

This morning, my KENP numbers jumped back to their normal level. Whether this is the result of support, or prompted by my withdrawal from Select, I'm not sure. I've not yet heard back from support, so I can't say. 

I cannot say definitively that this is related to the issue everyone else is facing, but wanted to add my specific situation to the topic being discussed. 

I'll also add that I only have two books, and neither are best sellers yet, by any stretch of the imagination. However, they've given me a decent return. KENP's were right around 1500/day until last Tuesday. As of this morning, they're back up to 1100, after having flatlined for almost a week.


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## Seneca42

TwistedTales said:


> I've got to admit, leaving KU is a relief. With all the games played, crazy tropes and Amazon messing around with it, it's nice to have to take it seriously anymore. I mean, I'll monitor it, but in business, we call it SEP - someone else's problem. That isn't entirely true in that the KU games affect the sales side by hogging the ranks and skewing towards specific sub genres, but still, I don't have to worry about Amazon's rules, unpredictable behavior and denials. That's a nice place to be.


well look at that. Two of my books come out Dec 25/27. After two weeks of zero reads (well 3 one day, 15 the other, if that counts as "reads")... suddenly today reads are coming back.

Not gonna fool me this time KU. I don't care if I get 10,000 page reads a day, I'm out. The sense of relief I got over already removing one book was just to great.

I'm now starting to think this is not a random algo that's part of some anti-scamming effort accidentally sweeping up innocent authors. I'm starting to think this is being done on purpose (randomly, but on purpose). Perhaps suppressing various books to favor others (ie. amazon imprints).

Either way, I'll never know, and now I'll never need to care what it is  Soon enough I'll be 100% out and whatever KU's problems are, they won't be mine.


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## Usedtoposthere

I have 4 books with an Amazon imprint. My indie books are doing better, even though the imprint books are newer. 

If there's discrimination in favor of imprint books (beyond the exposure Amazon gives you on release and the more frequent promos, which are the reason you go with an imprint in the first place)--it's not happening to my books. Just pointing that out.


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## Seneca42

TwistedTales said:


> There are so many possible reasons other than Amazon are being fraudulent.


well they are fraudulent. For example, everyone seems to report that as your book is about to come out of KU suddenly your page reads spike. That's fraudulent in my view... I mean, to your favor, but still  (my box set had nearly no reads as I unpublished it, but was still in KU, a week ro two before coming off KU, BOOM 1800 reads in one day). It's comical. Now same thing is starting to happen with teh books coming out in the next week.

fraudulent is the wrong word though... more that the system is "rigged". The only question is whether it's done on purpose, by accident, or worst of all, is occurring without anyone (within amazon) even knowing it or being able to identify it.

I find the whole thing absurdly comical at this point.


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## 75845

Seneca42 said:


> well they are fraudulent. For example, everyone seems to report that as your book is about to come out of KU suddenly your page reads spike. That's fraudulent in my view... I mean, to your favor, but still  (my box set had nearly no reads as I unpublished it, but was still in KU, a week ro two before coming off KU, BOOM 1800 reads in one day). It's comical. Now same thing is starting to happen with teh books coming out in the next week.
> 
> fraudulent is the wrong word though... more that the system is "rigged". The only question is whether it's done on purpose, by accident, or worst of all, is occurring without anyone (within amazon) even knowing it or being able to identify it.
> 
> I find the whole thing absurdly comical at this point.


It doesn't need to be either an indication of normal case fraud or rigging, but merely a low cost way of Amazon trying to attract you back, especially as your 1800 pages will be taken from the general pot for those still exclusive. They do things like that. When leaving KU there is a rank punishment for few days and then the graph recovers (i.e., there is a U shaped dip in the gradual slope), but you need to take a non selling book out of KU to notice this. They do something similar if you switch from CreateSpace to IngramSpark and suddenly it takes 30 days apparently to get your book, but if you hold your nerve a week later it is just a five day wait on deliveries (again you'll only notice this with a non-selling paperback). So increase reads on unticking or actually leaving is more likely to be a please come back move rather than suddenly crediting actual page reads.

They also do this with readers. If you sign up to KU after a few months away you get another trial month. So a lot of the page reads are from readers who never pay Amazon a cent for the subscription, especially as just before the trial ends you can download ten books and turn off your wifi for a few further weeks of free reading.

Personally for the alternative options for the general decline in page reads (setting aside page flip) my vote goes to those who like the books that dominate KU stay in and those that find insufficient to justify the cost churn out or dip in and out every few months.


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## RipleyKing

With all this information, all the screenshots, all the graphs; people in denial, people with hope that this is all a mistake and it will sort itself out, people backing away from the program for whatever reason; only you people can take this one step farther, and do so for everyone's sake. 

Print copies of all of it, and use this information to contact the U. S. Department of Justice. 

Tell your stories. Thousands of dollars each day vanishing from (possibly thousands of) author's pockets is a crime. If enough of you do this, they will have no choice but to look into the matter, and force Amazon to either fix their mistakes once and for all, or force them to actually look at every single author account. If this is theft, heads will roll. Amazon will still exist, and so will we, but they would have been served notice that this dam* well better not happen again. 

Don't quote TOS, this has nothing to do with TOS. This is a potential crime. One that needs to be reported, and investigated. 

This is our real power. The collective power of all indie authors. To ignore this, our true power, to stop this from ever happening again to any and all authors, by anyone and everyone . . .

Would any of you take this stand? Draw that line in the sand once and for all, wielding the only true power we have for those authors here, now, and those to come?


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## Traci Lane

I don't understand how it can be legal that KU, which pays authors by pages read, can implement a system that allows subscribers to read pages without them being recorded. That's crazy.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Traci Lane said:


> I don't understand how it can be legal that KU, which pays authors by pages read, can implement a system that allows subscribers to read pages without them being recorded. That's crazy.


Yeah, there are several issues here (and IANAL, BTW):

1) Is it a civil tort? Probably. That KDP let people out of their KU agreements early whenever they uttered the magic words, "breach of contract," is almost self-condemning. But I think the KDP agreement forces us to use binding arbitration, either by phone or in various locations around the country that are actually amenable to the KDP publisher (us). Determining actual losses would be difficult. I don't know what "discovery" rights the members to binding arbitration have. (I.e., the rights to demand internal KDP sales and borrow figures, e.g.) Perhaps a shark in our audience here could explain.

2) Is this criminal fraud? This is hard to prove. If it _were_ criminal fraud, then I don't think binding arbitration would apply. For criminal fraud, someone willing to put their neck on the block would have to file a complaint, and THEN a prosecutor with a suitable set of 'nads would have to file charges against Amazon. And if it ever came to trial, trying to explain what is likely going on, to a set of twelve jurors so that they would understand how half a penny a page adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, would be a challenge.

It's all nuts.


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## RipleyKing

They admitted what page flip does, and then they admitted what page flip doesn't. Use their own words against them. It's theft.


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## katrina46

Mercia McMahon said:


> It doesn't need to be either an indication of normal case fraud or rigging, but merely a low cost way of Amazon trying to attract you back, especially as your 1800 pages will be taken from the general pot for those still exclusive. They do things like that. When leaving KU there is a rank punishment for few days and then the graph recovers (i.e., there is a U shaped dip in the gradual slope), but you need to take a non selling book out of KU to notice this. They do something similar if you switch from CreateSpace to IngramSpark and suddenly it takes 30 days apparently to get your book, but if you hold your nerve a week later it is just a five day wait on deliveries (again you'll only notice this with a non-selling paperback). So increase reads on unticking or actually leaving is more likely to be a please come back move rather than suddenly crediting actual page reads.
> 
> They also do this with readers. If you sign up to KU after a few months away you get another trial month. So a lot of the page reads are from readers who never pay Amazon a cent for the subscription, especially as just before the trial ends you can download ten books and turn off your wifi for a few further weeks of free reading.
> 
> Personally for the alternative options for the general decline in page reads (setting aside page flip) my vote goes to those who like the books that dominate KU stay in and those that find insufficient to justify the cost churn out or dip in and out every few months.


Yeah, this is nothing new. I often let old books fall out of KU and enter new ones. I get a spike the day before it falls out every time and that's been going on for a year.


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## eroticatorium

Just a thought i had that could explain some of the sales trends recently.

You know how Amazon has switched from one keyword box to seven? If you go into an old book, your long keyword strings are shoved into one box which doesn't allow for that many characters, you have to fix it before you can move on.

What if Amazon is simply ignoring keywords that don't fit the new requirements? Even if you haven't updated it, all those extra keywords are ignored, even if you could fit them into seven keyword boxes instead of one.

Since some of us probably used to put all our keywords into one string and others used fewer keywords or more commas, some of us see little effect and others are decimated because almost all of our keywords are being ignored.

I realize that can't explain all of it, but it could be a part of it. Does anyone have older books set up in different ways that can be compared?


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## David VanDyke

eroticatorium said:


> Just a thought i had that could explain some of the sales trends recently.
> 
> You know how Amazon has switched from one keyword box to seven? If you go into an old book, your long keyword strings are shoved into one box which doesn't allow for that many characters, you have to fix it before you can move on.
> 
> What if Amazon is simply ignoring keywords that don't fit the new requirements? Even if you haven't updated it, all those extra keywords are ignored, even if you could fit them into seven keyword boxes instead of one.
> 
> Since some of us probably used to put all our keywords into one string and others used fewer keywords or more commas, some of us see little effect and others are decimated because almost all of our keywords are being ignored.
> 
> I realize that can't explain all of it, but it could be a part of it. Does anyone have older books set up in different ways that can be compared?


An interesting idea, but not applicable to the page read problem. The issue isn't that books are not being found, borrowed and/or bought. The issue is that some we know are being borrowed (by ranking analysis) are not showing the expected page reads--not even close.

Apples and oranges.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

eroticatorium said:


> Just a thought i had that could explain some of the sales trends recently.
> 
> You know how Amazon has switched from one keyword box to seven? If you go into an old book, your long keyword strings are shoved into one box which doesn't allow for that many characters, you have to fix it before you can move on.
> 
> What if Amazon is simply ignoring keywords that don't fit the new requirements? Even if you haven't updated it, all those extra keywords are ignored, even if you could fit them into seven keyword boxes instead of one.
> 
> Since some of us probably used to put all our keywords into one string and others used fewer keywords or more commas, some of us see little effect and others are decimated because almost all of our keywords are being ignored.
> 
> I realize that can't explain all of it, but it could be a part of it. Does anyone have older books set up in different ways that can be compared?


As David said, not the same problem. 
I proved the loss of page reads when a fellow KBoarder downloaded my Bheki children's book and read it through (twice) and returned to the beginning before closing it. The book moved ranking from 2 million to 44, 800 - but not a single page read. We both spoke to the KDP rep who went through the process to see what was happening. During the experiment I ended up with 11 page reads. When I asked if I would be credited for the entire book I did not receive a reply. 
The page reads on all my books are way down, so I can only conclude that readers are enjoying them so much that they are returning to the beginning to see what other books I've written before closing the book.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> As David said, not the same problem.
> I proved the loss of page reads when a fellow KBoarder downloaded my Bheki children's book and read it through (twice) and returned to the beginning before closing it. The book moved ranking from 2 million to 44, 800 - but not a single page read. We both spoke to the KDP rep who went through the process to see what was happening. During the experiment I ended up with 11 page reads. When I asked if I would be credited for the entire book I did not receive a reply.
> The page reads on all my books are way down, so I can only conclude that readers are enjoying them so much that they are returning to the beginning to see what other books I've written before closing the book.


You actually got a KDP rep to follow you through the steps of the experiment? And then they refused to say if you'd be credited for the full read?

There are some really good Yiddish and German words that come to mind, but I'm afraid I'll get modded out of here if I mention them.

Good grief.


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## Sonya Bateman

eroticatorium said:


> Just a thought i had that could explain some of the sales trends recently.
> 
> You know how Amazon has switched from one keyword box to seven? If you go into an old book, your long keyword strings are shoved into one box which doesn't allow for that many characters, you have to fix it before you can move on.
> 
> What if Amazon is simply ignoring keywords that don't fit the new requirements? Even if you haven't updated it, all those extra keywords are ignored, even if you could fit them into seven keyword boxes instead of one.
> 
> Since some of us probably used to put all our keywords into one string and others used fewer keywords or more commas, some of us see little effect and others are decimated because almost all of our keywords are being ignored.
> 
> I realize that can't explain all of it, but it could be a part of it. Does anyone have older books set up in different ways that can be compared?


I just got the new 7-box system about a week ago, and I'd been using the six short keywords, one long string method before. I went and checked out an older book, and they've put the whole long string in the last keyword box without shortening it to the new character restrictions.

So I guess those keywords strings are grandfathered in. Which is, in a way, disappointing ... I hoped this would lead to something I could fix! Drat.


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## RipleyKing

> 2) Is this criminal fraud? This is hard to prove. If it were criminal fraud, then I don't think binding arbitration would apply. For criminal fraud, someone willing to put their neck on the block would have to file a complaint, and THEN a prosecutor with a suitable set of 'nads would have to file charges against Amazon. And if it ever came to trial, trying to explain what is likely going on, to a set of twelve jurors so that they would understand how half a penny a page adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, would be a challenge.


First off, they admitted what page flip does, and doesn't do, and Amazon has no real excuse. It was designed for readers to read in (and we understand in full their adverts for page flip) *plus* as a navigation tool, *and was intentionally designed not to count pages read. *

*Not one single person has to FILE a complaint,* but by alerting the DOJ to our plight with all the information available, every single author who thinks this is the right thing to do based on six months now, and counting (first noticed in June?), of Amazon's whatever, cutting incomes 10%, 50%, or more, or possibly not reporting income in the first place, _all those cases of the bumps,_ each bump income we did not receive, the DOJ could and should launch an investigation into Amazon's business practices with their indie authors.

I know. Let us all consider our careers now.

Done?

It is not Amazon that will not make or break us. We do not need Amazon to sell books to customers.

Rock the boat?

Hide our heads in the sand?

Stick up for our rights?



> Business isn't a free-for-all where they get to do whatever they want. When it comes to payment calculations they are held accountable. But I agree with others that the "page flip" thing and their inability to really count pages is walking a very fine line with what the courts might consider reasonable. The main defence Amazon have to that is (a) there is no transparency, so building a case around what authors are losing would be difficult and (b) not enough authors are likely to form a large enough group to fund an action. That said, if they push it too far then some lawyer might take it on pro bono, they can be prickly that way.


Fund an action? Why do we need to fund an action, when the US Department of Justice is free to use by any author, any and all of us if we so choose to, at any time? Don't they have a Consumer Affairs Division for just this reason?

We file nothing, we alert them. We fund nothing, once alerted the DOJ takes the reins. They investigate based on our findings. They force the transparency. They get back every single dime due to ever single author, and then they might even punish Amazon with whatever they see fit.

If Amazon goes so far as to actually drop all indie authors, I'm not saying it's not going to hurt, but it will never stop us from selling books to fans who want to read them!

*We don't need Amazon to sell books to readers. *

But, what this will do is, it will insure _*once and for all*_ that indie authors do have a collective power to protect themselves, all of us, and those to come. No union. No useless association. Just us, sticking up for ourselves in no uncertain terms.

Have I done this? Yes. I took screen shots, I added links, I wrote a nice long letter. I emailed and sent a hard copy.

I paid postage.

I took on GreatUnpublished as Old Warrior. Joe Nassise can and should confirm this. I did write a glowing review for Riverwatch, which he used for many years. I warned authors about Booksurge, to no avail, but when enough of them had their fill of the theft . . . I warned authors about Double Dragon, what happened to me at You Write On. I took on the elite. I spoke the truth.

I also lost. I lost friends. I lost credibility, until they themselves got hit, never have I gained back even one shred of credibility.

I lost two publishing contracts! I lost them before Konrath published his first book, all because I took a stand for my fellow authors. Yet, I never, ever, backed down!

What hasn't the elite said about me in public or private? Yet, I was right, and didn't back down.

Every single time I have taken a stance to help every author alive for the last twenty plus #*&%ing years it has cost me everything. Me, personally, everything. And yet, I will never back down.

We have real power. If you're fearless enough to use it. It costs nothing to use this power. It might cost individuals in the short term, but not in the long term.

Once again, if this costs me everything, so be it. Forever label me a booktard. Make sure you tell everybody my books suck. Leave some new hate reviews.

At least I can look myself in the mirror, and I sleep good.


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## RipleyKing

They exist to protect us. From corporations, to government entities gone wrong, no single person in the USA is above the law. But they can't help us if nobody tells them about it. IT IS FREE! to speak up for ourselves. To demand a look at our problem, to demand what it rightfully ours.


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## Anarchist

RipleyKing said:


> They exist to protect us. From corporations, to government entities gone wrong, no single person in the USA is above the law. But they can't help us if nobody tells them about it. IT IS FREE! to speak up for ourselves. To demand a look at our problem, to demand what it rightfully ours.


There is a significant cost: time.

I'd rather spend my time building assets and testing new marketing strategies. I'm willing to adapt to changing circumstances, even if those circumstances are unfair. In my experience, there is more potential in adaptation than agitating for justice.


----------



## RipleyKing

You don't have to reveal you did what I consider the right thing to do for all of us. Mail to your state Attorney  General office, too. You never have to say a word to us if you did, or didn't do this. Make up your own minds. 

However, many of you have openly wondered what might come next. What new innovation or program comes next to scr*w us out of our hard-earned cash. 

All we want is for readers to buy one of our books, read it, and hope they like it enough to want more from us.

If we ignore this now . . .


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## RipleyKing

> Every so often it makes a difference, mostly not, but occasionally they've been known to bring down an empire.


----------



## Anarchist

TwistedTales said:


> I'm not one for hanging around an unfair playing field if I can avoid it. In this case, at least I can put some distance between myself and KU, even if I can't fully remove its impact. My version of adaptation will be to go wide and market hard.


The voice of reason. 



TwistedTales said:


> But for people with more will than my own to charge at the beast, best of luck. Every so often it makes a difference, mostly not, but occasionally they've been known to bring down an empire.


Indeed. If folks want to pursue that path, more power to them. I'll be sitting out this revolution.


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## RipleyKing

> There is a significant cost: time.


It took me a weekend, same paper and some ink.


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## Anarchist

RipleyKing said:


> It took me a weekend, same paper and some ink.


And what has been the result?

Don't get me wrong, Ripley. If this is what you want to do, Godspeed. I prefer to spend my time in ways that'll have greater tangible impact on my life (scaling my businesses, connecting with loved ones, etc.).


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## Sonya Bateman

RBN said:


> Did you search Amazon to see if your book comes up using any of the words that fall beyond the limit of that last field? Not cutting them off on your end and not cutting them off in the store are not necessarily the same things (and knowing how consistent Amazon is across systems...).
> 
> I did a price adjustment on an old book, and it wouldn't let me save until I shortened that last keyword to within the new limit, so if you ever change anything, you'll have to comply, anyway. Might as well start juggling words around to make them fit now.


Very true. I'm updating the entire (older) series soon, so I might as well do it then. It'll be a fun little jigsaw puzzle...


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## RipleyKing

What I've done in the last twenty plus years, no matter what the cost to me, it wasn't wrong. It wasn't in vane. I'd gladly do it again. Good luck.


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## TellNotShow

On Konrath's blog, he posited that maybe Amazon have been paying authors for page reads they never actually got -- I don't want to mislead anyone, so for clarity, this is exactly what *Konrath said: "...has anyone considered that numbers have gone down because Amazon those numbers have previously been over-reported by Amazon?"*

Why would Amazon over-report KU numbers?

Someone else commented something about how the inflation of KU reads by scammer accounts lifts Amazon's KU bottom line, making it appear better to shareholders. 
It'd also make KU appear better to KDP publishers who were trying it out.
And it'd get KU a lot of good publicity -- something I've only recently thought about is the level of success some KU promoters were actually having. (We tend to assume people think in the same terms we do, that their numbers have similar meaning to our numbers. I often do, anyway.)
Certainly, a few big names do great from KU, that's undisputed. 
But I've begun to realise there are a LOT of people who post here and elsewhere about how great KU is (or WAS), and how they're making so much more money in KU than when they were wide, etcetera -- but then later, when lamenting the loss of their page reads income, they begin to quote actual numbers, we see that their extremely vocal earlier claims of "KU tripled my income," were based on going from, say $50 a month to $150 a month. Indeed, one poster here (I won't mention names) said they went full time on the back of KU, but several months later when they shared numbers, their best month EVER brought in total revenue of around $1300. Presumably there were expenses out of this. But now, that person is one of those saying they're getting almost no page reads, that something is wrong, that they're back to where they were before KU, earning almost nothing.
I use this example only to make the observation that, maybe, a lot of the people who've been vocal about how great KU is were people who never really sold many books before they went into it -- and maybe, just maybe, Amazon DID over-report those numbers.

If they did over-report on a lot of small accounts, that's genius. The positive publicity it created for KU was huge. A LOT of people saying it doubled or tripled their income -- and a few people saying it decimated theirs.
As a mid-lister, my own KU experiment failed miserably. Higher rankings than my non-KU books, way less income. Both series had Bookbubs plus other promo -- it was a very fair experiment, as even as I could make it. There are many high-ranking KU books from this genre too -- presumably they don't make all that much either.

Thing is, Amazon could EASILY have afforded to over-pay many, many small publishers all this time -- they had a massive margin to work with. Several huge authors reported that KU decimated their income from the start. H.M Ward, for one, reported her numbers here -- and it was heartbreaking. This vastly lower income to the biggest sellers suggests that the Borrow Payout in KU1, and the page read amount in KU2 in turn, lowered the payments to author/publishers who were actually selling. 
It's well known that most books people buy don't get read -- yet the per page amount means we end up with around about what we get from a sale. That's IF the book is long, and IF the borrower finishes it. And as Sela so brilliantly pointed out in this thread, Amazon took the difference and added it to their own margin.
So IF they paid some (or even ALL) of that money out as extras to a lot of small (and some medium, and a few already big-selling, high profile) publishers and built KU's reputation one glowing report at a time, what a brilliant way of getting away with lowering the percentage paid out to suppliers.
I think that's where we are now -- or soon will be, when they finish rolling this out to EVERYONE. Indie income halved, Amazon's doubled.

I don't know anything about the laws relating to this. I'm not even in the US. But it seems to me like if Amazon made a "mistake" and over-reported on a lot of accounts, then they fixed the "mistake" down the track but didn't take back the "over-payment" it wouldn't be construed as something illegal. Genius. If this is what they did.
Although it does seem like it might be manipulating the perceived value of a publicly listed company, so there's that.

It seems to me that a small percentage of people seem to be (as yet) unaffected. A lot of big earners have had their income halved, or worse. And a lot of small earners had their income increase dramatically, and it's now going back to what it used to be, or worse. There are some pretty logical assumptions that can be made from all this, but the most logical is that Amazon is paying out WAY less money to suppliers of ebooks than they used to.

The fact that ONE scammer had 80,000 KU accounts seems like a pretty clear indication that there is chokingly thick smoke and many strangely shaped mirrors to this thing called KU. 
Maybe there's nowhere near as many actual readers paying for KU as we (or Amazon's shareholders) imagine. Maybe there never was. Maybe it's all been built on sand. Maybe it was just Amazon's way of changing their average payout to us from somewhere around 60% of retail to somewhere around 30%.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

TellNotShow said:


> On Konrath's blog, he posited that maybe Amazon have been paying authors for page reads they never actually got -- I don't want to mislead anyone, so for clarity, this is exactly what *Konrath said: "...has anyone considered that numbers have gone down because those numbers have previously been over-reported by Amazon?"*


I had to see that quote for myself. It's there.

Good grief. Maybe Amazon has found itself a Baghdad Bob to front a lie or two.
Hey, Konrath: Baghdad Bob did it better.


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## PearlEarringLady

TellNotShow said:


> It seems to me that a small percentage of people seem to be (as yet) unaffected.


This is something we don't know and can't even begin to estimate. As with KU1 and KU2, it tends to be the people who are most adversely affected who are speaking out. My impression is that that's a small minority of authors. In my FB author group of 3 dozen or so people across a range of genres, only 5 people have been affected. The rest either haven't, or any fluctuations are within the boundaries of normal variation.

I do think there's an element of reducing overpayments, either by putting robust fraud detection in place (which Amazon have said they're doing) or closing loopholes. For instance, I suspect that any KU borrows that happen at a time when the book is free are now being discounted, ie their pages read will be ignored, on the grounds that if the book is free, the author shouldn't get any payment for it. I can see the logic in that. The use of the most recent reading point rather than the furthest reading point is a correction for the skip-to-the-back technique beloved by the scammers. It may underpay sometimes, but the previous arrangement would have routinely overpaid. I imagine they've got some way of countering all those 'bonus' books bundled with the headline book, as well.

Whatever changes Amazon is putting in place, I don't expect them to tell us about them, because they know perfectly well that indies will immediately turn on a dime to take advantage of them. But I suspect their policy now is to discourage any activity designed solely to increase pages read. And by discourage, I mean make unprofitable.


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## eroticatorium

PaulineMRoss said:


> I do think there's an element of reducing overpayments, either by putting robust fraud detection in place (which Amazon have said they're doing) or closing loopholes. For instance, I suspect that any KU borrows that happen at a time when the book is free are now being discounted, ie their pages read will be ignored, on the grounds that if the book is free, the author shouldn't get any payment for it.


I definitely still get pages credited while books are temp-free. I get some of that almost every day (it happened yesterday).


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## PearlEarringLady

eroticatorium said:


> I definitely still get pages credited while books are temp-free. I get some of that almost every day (it happened yesterday).


The pages read that show up on the daily graph aren't necessarily from borrows that same day. They can be from days, weeks or even months ago. But nowadays I notice a distinct drop in pages read on days when the book is actually free.


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## Amanda M. Lee

PaulineMRoss said:


> This is something we don't know and can't even begin to estimate. As with KU1 and KU2, it tends to be the people who are most adversely affected who are speaking out. My impression is that that's a small minority of authors. In my FB author group of 3 dozen or so people across a range of genres, only 5 people have been affected. The rest either haven't, or any fluctuations are within the boundaries of normal variation.
> 
> I do think there's an element of reducing overpayments, either by putting robust fraud detection in place (which Amazon have said they're doing) or closing loopholes. For instance, I suspect that any KU borrows that happen at a time when the book is free are now being discounted, ie their pages read will be ignored, on the grounds that if the book is free, the author shouldn't get any payment for it. I can see the logic in that. The use of the most recent reading point rather than the furthest reading point is a correction for the skip-to-the-back technique beloved by the scammers. It may underpay sometimes, but the previous arrangement would have routinely overpaid. I imagine they've got some way of countering all those 'bonus' books bundled with the headline book, as well.
> 
> Whatever changes Amazon is putting in place, I don't expect them to tell us about them, because they know perfectly well that indies will immediately turn on a dime to take advantage of them. But I suspect their policy now is to discourage any activity designed solely to increase pages read. And by discourage, I mean make unprofitable.


I totally agree. I'm part of multiple groups and the people complaining about huge drops in reads are the very small minority rather than the majority. There's even one group I'm part of where no one is having issues. We're talking big and small sellers. It's not a "vast majority" of authors by any stretch of the imagination. That does not mean those feeling the pinch aren't important, but it's hardly all authors.
I also think this is a correction from before. That's why the box set people are getting hit so hard. They used to get paid as long as people flipped to the end of the book. Now they're just getting paid for the books read and it's jarring. I think it's only going to get worse for box set people because I expect another cap to be instituted at some point, perhaps 1,000 KENPC maximum.
I always knew there would be a correction, just like i always knew that the flat fee would never stick. Amazon warned people months before they made the change to KU2 and no one listened. They sent out an email telling authors what KU readers wanted, the length, and no one listened to them.
KU is not going to be for everyone and everyone has to make the decision for themselves. If it's not working for you, definitely get out. It can't possibly work for everyone.


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## Seneca42

whether it's:

* over reporting KU reads as a marketing tactic (then correcting or stopping those over reports later)
* not counting KU reads resulting from borrows during free periods
* flip pages not counting
* scam detection gone awry 
* reads getting backlogged and then reported later 
* page reads getting erased if the user returns to page 1
* random suppression of books to give other books a boost
* implementation of KU3

what kind of program is open to this level of speculation? Not one you can have any faith in. At best you can say "it's working for me, and that's what matters." 

But simple, barebones truth is KU is a total black box, whether it's page reads or even the royalties (no one has any clue what amazon makes from KU subscriptions and what % of that creates the pot... and then whether that pot gets paid out accurately based on page reads - which we know it doesn't because scammers were taking millions from it). 

And Amazon's response to everyone who has asked for some clarification is "When we look inside the black box we don't see anything abnormal."  hehe - Thank you, my mind can rest at ease now.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Seneca42 said:


> And Amazon's response to everyone who has asked for some clarification is "When we look inside the black box we don't see anything abnormal."


Forget the black box. Someone needs to give the KU folks "a green metal cube about fifteen centimeters on a side."

+5 points to the folks who can identify this.


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## Amanda M. Lee

The difference is you get paid on a sale whether the person reads the book or not. KU pays for pages read, so while some correlations can be made, they're not really equal.

Also, I've never heard of 400 sales putting you in the top five of the Kindle store. It takes a lot more sales than that.


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## Kay Bratt

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Also, I've never heard of 400 sales putting you in the top five of the Kindle store. It takes a lot more sales than that.


Same. Maybe top 5 of a category, but not Overall Store.


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## Sonya Bateman

Amanda M. Lee said:


> The difference is you get paid on a sale whether the person reads the book or not. KU pays for pages read, so while some correlations can be made, they're not really equal.
> 
> Also, I've never heard of 400 sales putting you in the top five of the Kindle store. It takes a lot more sales than that.


I think she's talking about the French Kindle store, there.


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## Seneca42

7seasonsgirl said:


> As for those who aren't affected, all my author friends are affected and two of them already left KU completely and even more curious a few others refuse to say it out loud because as one said: I don't like to talk about what doesn't work. Her books are still on the top, her page reads are half what they were but she can't do anything so why would she discuss her numbers? I'm sure there are many other authors who think this way.


For sure.

Also, I think back in October when this happened a lot of people stayed in the program (I know I did). There's a desire for cognitive continuity there... why complain overtly if you aren't even leaving. And ironically, most of us didn't want this to be true (we were in KU afterall... so we aren't anti-KU authors). I think this time, far more people are actually leaving KU and are more open to now vocalizing their frustration (and aren't worried about being charged with over-reacting to natural peaks and valleys).

Those who have been hit twice by KU (or more) now no longer have doubt that something is wrong.


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## Amanda M. Lee

Kay Bratt said:


> Same. Maybe top 5 of a category, but not Overall Store.


Even then it would have to be a small category.


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## TheLass

7seasonsgirl said:


> As for those who aren't affected, all my author friends are affected and two of them already left KU completely and even more curious a few others refuse to say it out loud because as one said: I don't like to talk about what doesn't work. Her books are still on the top, her page reads are half what they were but she can't do anything so why would she discuss her numbers? I'm sure there are many other authors who think this way.


As PaulineMRoss says about the numbers (un)affected: "we don't know and can't even begin to estimate".

We can't extrapolate from a handful of groups and authors. And I have the impression that most people make so little they wouldn't be able to tell if they were affected or if it was just a normal variation.

Anyway the numbers are secondary, it's bad that this has happened to anyone at all. Hopefully a good explanation/solution will surface soon.


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## PhoenixS

PaulineMRoss said:


> The pages read that show up on the daily graph aren't necessarily from borrows that same day. They can be from days, weeks or even months ago. But nowadays I notice a distinct drop in pages read on days when the book is actually free.


I'm one who believes our accounts are affected. The SMP account is down about 25-30% in page reads overall since August from what I can tell.

For us, page reads after our big monthly campaign in October where we had about 42,000 freeloads barely blipped. THAT was completely abnormal reader behavior. _We've not had a month like that before or after._ Not in 5 years or 2.5 million freebies. Even September where our visibility during our free runs was cut off completely because of whatever was going on with the free ranks wasn't as bad post-promo as October was.

However, our November campaign saw some improvement. The first chart is a book from one account and the second is a book from a different account (which seems to have been hit harder than the first one). It's clear page reads were on the increase and being counted while the books were free.

In the first chart, it's also easy to see that reads peaked on Nov 30, a couple of days after the free promo ended. That's consistent with the lift of the book in the poplists.

Th huge valleys in the second book are a bit more disconcerting. As are the comparative lack of page reads.

I use the same sites to advertise books in both accounts. The only difference is that I queried KDP Support about the first account, but not the second. I'm querying them this week about the second and will watch during our Dec 26-30 and Jan 2-6 campaigns to see if there's any improvement in the second account. That said, the first account, while improving, is still 25-30% short of where it would have been back in the summer.

In any case, while it's quite possible there's some suppression happening to page reads (and dare I say cross-sales as well?) during free runs, some of those reads -- even in accounts affected by whatever's going on -- are being recorded and paid.

But that's what makes this whole thing so frustrating. It's so hard to get a handle on the issue because the symptoms are so variable even from one account to another.


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## PearlEarringLady

PhoenixS said:


> In any case, while it's quite possible there's some suppression happening to page reads (and dare I say cross-sales as well?) during free runs, some of those reads -- even in accounts affected by whatever's going on -- are being recorded and paid.


Yes, but you can't tell from the graph when the book was borrowed. The page reads that show up on free days may be from way back, when the book wasn't free. What I seem to see is a reduction in pages read on and just after a free day, followed by a slower than expected rise. It's consistent with the idea that books borrowed on a free day are marked as a purchase, not a borrow, so the pages read then or later aren't registering. But my numbers are low - typically 10-15K pages over all books per day - so what I see may just be normal variation, I dunno.

Not sure how they'd even be able to suppress cross-sales. You'd think that a sale is a sale., and since money changes hands it would have to be recorded. But still, my recent free promos have been producing a tail of pages read, but not so much on sell-through, so you may be right.



> But that's what makes this whole thing so frustrating. It's so hard to get a handle on the issue because the symptoms are so variable even from one account to another.


Ain't that the truth.


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## Anna Drake

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I totally agree. I'm part of multiple groups and the people complaining about huge drops in reads are the very small minority rather than the majority. There's even one group I'm part of where no one is having issues. We're talking big and small sellers. It's not a "vast majority" of authors by any stretch of the imagination. That does not mean those feeling the pinch aren't important, but it's hardly all authors.


Amanda, that might be true for your groups, but that does not prove your groups represent KU writers as a whole. When it comes to statistics, anecdotal evidence is notoriously inaccurate. Random samples are the only way to truly test what's out there.

_fixed quote format. --Betsy_


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## 75845

TellNotShow said:


> Why would Amazon over-report KU numbers?


Because it serves the Amazonian mantra "It's about the market share, stupid." It starves competitors of the ability to compete if you starve them of authors. Just ask Nook.


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## Amanda M. Lee

Anna Drake said:


> Amanda, that might be true for your groups, but that does not prove your groups represent KU writers as a whole. When it comes to statistics, anecdotal evidence is notoriously inaccurate. Random samples are the only way to truly test what's out there.


Which was the point I'm making. People are assuming that because random people are saying they're seeing drops that everyone is seeing drops.


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## Seneca42

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Which was the point I'm making. People are assuming that because random people are saying they're seeing drops that everyone is seeing drops.


No one knows the extent of the problem. Maybe it's very small, maybe it's very large; maybe it's both depending on the day or week. Anyone concluding that it's either with definitive assurance is jumping the shark big time.

The only one who knows is Amazon (and even they may not know).


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## PhoenixS

**************


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## 75845

A brief note on the much misunderstood concept of statistical significance. It only applies when all over variables have been accounted and then having honed what is a watertight argument you test to see if that result is statistically significant. Statistics being significant should never be used to warrant an element of a waterloose argument.


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## Sonya Bateman

PhoenixS said:


> I use the same sites to advertise books in both accounts. The only difference is that I queried KDP Support about the first account, but not the second. I'm querying them this week about the second and will watch during our Dec 26-30 and Jan 2-6 campaigns to see if there's any improvement in the second account. That said, the first account, while improving, is still 25-30% short of where it would have been back in the summer.


Phoenix -- when you queried KDP (I'm assuming you sent them questions and / or data about the drops in page reads), did you get the canned "nothing to see here, move along" reply, and then you saw improvement in that account anyway? Curious because I've seen my KU reads drop significantly since late August / early September, after a shorter-than-expected BookBub tail (free first-in-series) -- I've been following this gigantic thread all along and just figured it wouldn't do any good to contact Amazon, since they were handing out the same responses to everyone. But maybe I should...

And thanks so much for providing all the data you do!


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## PearlEarringLady

PhoenixS said:


> While we can't know 100% for sure, of course, all the forensic clues lead to a pretty clear conclusion: That at least *some* of the page reads from borrows that occurred while it was free were being counted as payable page reads. That does NOT preclude the possibility that some page reads from borrows that happened from certain referral urls are being suppressed. That I can't tell for sure. Something appears to be suppressing 25-30% of them somehow, but I don't know what that something is.


Yeah, good points. Your data is a lot more robust than my piddly little numbers.  I still find it quite astonishing that, three months after the page-reads-apocalypse, we still know virtually nothing about what is going on, and why, and how it is that some people/books are catastrophically affected and others are somewhat affected and yet others appear to be unaffected. It drives me nuts looking for the pattern in all this random noise. It's like one of those where's Wally/Waldo pictures - maybe there's nothing to find, but I can't stop looking. Aargh!


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

PaulineMRoss said:


> Yeah, good points. Your data is a lot more robust than my piddly little numbers.  I still find it quite astonishing that, three months after the page-reads-apocalypse, we still know virtually nothing about what is going on, and why, and how it is that some people/books are catastrophically affected and others are somewhat affected and yet others appear to be unaffected. It drives me nuts looking for the pattern in all this random noise. It's like one of those where's Wally/Waldo pictures - maybe there's nothing to find, but I can't stop looking. Aargh!


What I find fascinating is that, after three months, nothing's _leaked_ from Amazon. Surely too many people know what's going on, to keep it a secret for any length of time. :/


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## Carey Lewis

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What I find fascinating is that, after three months, nothing's _leaked_ from Amazon. Surely too many people know what's going on, to keep it a secret for any length of time. :/


It's not Watergate. I doubt if Amazon knows/ thinks anything is awry. It's a far bigger deal to us than it is to them.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## BlubberyPenguin

I'm at about 40k+/- paid rank for a KU title for like 2-3 sales a day (I'm assuming the rest are borrows), but my daily page reads are only 100+

Is that normal or should I be hounding the zon support


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## TromboneAl

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Forget the black box. Someone needs to give the KU folks "a green metal cube about fifteen centimeters on a side."
> 
> +5 points to the folks who can identify this.


They would fail the test. They are not human.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## LGAdams

Wow, this is awful. I had a bad September in my personal life, so I slacked off looking at my reporting. When my revenue was off, way off, I thought it was the summer slump and stuff like that.

I lost 9 days of revenue in September. 2 days at half, 7 days of ZERO. When it recovered, it went to half of what it was before (pagereads were at about 25-35K/day, then to 12-16K/day)

I got my act back together in November and assumed I could knuckle down and fix it.... but no? I mean, what to do now? Bookbub seems like crap ROI, newsletter and ARCs being suppressed, what the heck are we supposed to do?

I put in an email to KDP support regarding 9 days of loss, but I'm not optimistic about the results.

tl;dr resumed consciousness after slacking off to find my career is kablooie, omg


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## Maia Sepp Ross

Alan Petersen said:


> I used to work as a business analyst for a big Fortune 100 company. I would take end-user needs for system changes, fixes, upgrades, etc. and write up the specs for the programmers. In the beginning, I could walk to the main programmer but then they put all these layers of "improvements" so that any change... even a quick tweak of the code, I had to write a business need/justification, fill out a long change/modification request form, then dial into a weekly cabal of managers and plead my case. Then they would it mull it over, review my paperwork, and decide if my request would make it into the monthly cycle were the programmers would make changes.


And the best part...? Where I am, this model is called "Agile." I despise it - it's the reason I left the tech business. And "cabal" is the exact right word for it


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

This morning I was heard to exclaim, "Good grief!" I actually had 313 page reads, which is the complete book. This after an *entire month* of only 11, 9 and 146 page reads on 10 books. The book's ranking moved up about 300 places.

Yet on Dec 10th another of my books shot up from #6,452,052 to #187,876. Yes from 6.5 million to 187k and had ONE page read. I know there are several factors involved in ranking, but that's a huge jump for one page read. It dipped just below 1 million on Dec 18th and is now about #167,887 with no further sales or page reads.

(Not sure how to do a screen grab, which is more impressive when you see the graph . )

Does this make any sort of sense?


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## Amanda M. Lee

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> This morning I was heard to exclaim, "Good grief!" I actually had 313 page reads, which is the complete book. This after an *entire month* of only 11, 9 and 146 page reads on 10 books. The book's ranking moved up about 300 places.
> 
> Yet on Dec 10th another of my books shot up from #6,452,052 to #187,876. Yes from 6.5 million to 187k and had ONE page read. I know there are several factors involved in ranking, but that's a huge jump for one page read. It dipped just below 1 million on Dec 18th and is now about #167,887 with no further sales or page reads.
> 
> (Not sure how to do a screen grab, which is more impressive when you see the graph . )
> 
> Does this make any sort of sense?


Pages read has absolutely nothing to do with rank. You get the rank boost when someone borrows the book. You get the pages when they bother to read it. The pages read has absolutely nothing to do with the rank boost.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> This morning I was heard to exclaim, "Good grief!" I actually had 313 page reads, which is the complete book. This after an *entire month* of only 11, 9 and 146 page reads on 10 books. The book's ranking moved up about 300 places.
> 
> Yet on Dec 10th another of my books shot up from #6,452,052 to #187,876. Yes from 6.5 million to 187k and had ONE page read. I know there are several factors involved in ranking, but that's a huge jump for one page read. It dipped just below 1 million on Dec 18th and is now about #167,887 with no further sales or page reads.
> 
> (Not sure how to do a screen grab, which is more impressive when you see the graph . )
> 
> Does this make any sort of sense?


What Amanda said. You get the rating bump on the borrow; you actually get _paid_ when the pages are counted. _IF_ the pages are counted!

Just recently had a bump on a short of mine ("Transit in B-Flat") and am breathlessly awaiting the ha'penny on its 1-page read. 

Re: Screen Grab:
If you're running a Windows PC, there are two ways:

1) Press the PrtSc or PrtScn key on your keyboard. This will copy the screen into the Clipboard. You can then paste the saved screen into Paint, or even into WordPad or most other word processors or painting programs.

2) Press the Windows key on your keyboard and, from the menu that pops up, select "Snipping Tool". Then wait about 4 seconds for it to come up. You can then use the mouse (hold down and drag) to create a rectangle that will then come up in the Snipping Tool program, and which you can then save as a file. Snipping Tool is great when you don't want to save the entire screen (esp. if it has personal or sensitive info and you need to send part of a screen image to a third party). You can play with Snipping Tool ahead of having to use it the next time, to get your feet wet.


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## daveconifer

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Pages read has absolutely nothing to do with rank. You get the rank boost when someone borrows the book. You get the pages when they bother to read it. The pages read has absolutely nothing to do with the rank boost.


Piggy-backing on this: not that I'm doubting anything said in this thread, but what would Amazon have to gain by under-counting page reads? Unless the process has changed, they're still paying out the same amount. Page reads merely dictates how they divide the payment.

I'm not sure I understand some of the accusations directed at 'Zon. I don't keep up on this stuff, so I'm surely missing something...


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What Amanda said. You get the rating bump on the borrow; you actually get _paid_ when the pages are counted. _IF_ the pages are counted!
> 
> Just recently had a bump on a short of mine ("Transit in B-Flat") and am breathlessly awaiting the ha'penny on its 1-page read.
> 
> Re: Screen Grab:
> If you're running a Windows PC, there are two ways:
> 
> 1) Press the PrtSc or PrtScn key on your keyboard. This will copy the screen into the Clipboard. You can then past the saved screen into Paint, or even into WordPad or most other word processors or painting programs.
> 
> 2) Press the Windows key on your keyboard and, from the menu that pops up, select "Snipping Tool". Then wait about 4 seconds for it to come up. You can then use the mouse (hold down and drag) to create a rectangle that will then come up in the Snipping Tool program, and which you can then save as a file. Snipping Tool is great when you don't want to save the entire screen (esp. if it has personal or sensitive info and you need to send part of a screen image to a third party). You can play with Snipping Tool ahead of having to use it the next time, to get your feet wet.


Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

daveconifer said:


> Piggy-backing on this: not that I'm doubting anything said in this thread, but what would Amazon have to gain by under-counting page reads? Unless the process has changed, they're still paying out the same amount. Page reads merely dictates how they divide the payment.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand some of the accusations directed at 'Zon. I don't keep up on this stuff, so I'm surely missing something...


You are absolutely correct. Unless the monthly pool amount itself is being fiddled, Amazon has no gain from undercounting pages. The issue here is the inequitable allocation of pages-read moneys.

Note however that, because it matters not to Amazon one way or another how the same amount of money is spread around, the conclusion that follows is that there's little incentive to fix the pages-read problems (two of which have been fairly clearly established: the Page-Flip issue and the Exit-Point issue).


----------



## Pizzazz

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I totally agree. I'm part of multiple groups and the people complaining about huge drops in reads are the very small minority rather than the majority.


Thank you.


----------



## David VanDyke

daveconifer said:


> Piggy-backing on this: not that I'm doubting anything said in this thread, but what would Amazon have to gain by under-counting page reads? Unless the process has changed, they're still paying out the same amount. Page reads merely dictates how they divide the payment.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand some of the accusations directed at 'Zon. I don't keep up on this stuff, so I'm surely missing something...


Because the problem is a side-effect of something they want to happen. Somebody made his or her bones from Page Flip and/or the anti-scam algo change, and they're unwilling to do whatever it takes to unscrew the side-effect, which is intermittent improper page counting.


----------



## AYClaudy

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Pages read has absolutely nothing to do with rank. You get the rank boost when someone borrows the book. You get the pages when they bother to read it. The pages read has absolutely nothing to do with the rank boost.


I think this has been the typical algorithm Amazon used.... but I'm starting to wonder if that changed as well. I had a new release this month and instead of the normal trend of the rank going up and the page reads rising with a day or two lag, the rank seemed to more closely follow the page reads. I've been noticing the same thing with my other book in KU. I know that's only one anecdotal piece, and a lot goes into ranking-- but just throwing it out there. Just because something has always been the case, doesn't mean it will stay the case (Especially in Amazon world).

Also, as far as KU errors-- the book that I recently released had good sales and the reads were up there-- but it should be noted they did not get nearly as high as previous releases. This new book peaked at about 70% of what my past book peaked at and that one was placed in KU a month after release. But that could be due to the month...

BUT I did update an older book yesterday with new links (which also made me have to update the key words-- which I still stuffed even though I'm not sure that's a good idea with this new format  ) and its page reads this morning are higher than any day they've been this month.


----------



## MissingAlaska

AYClaudy said:


> I think this has been the typical algorithm Amazon used.... but I'm starting to wonder if that changed as well. I had a new release this month and instead of the normal trend of the rank going up and the page reads rising with a day or two lag, the rank seemed to more closely follow the page reads. I've been noticing the same thing with my other book in KU. I know that's only one anecdotal piece, and a lot goes into ranking-- but just throwing it out there. Just because something has always been the case, doesn't mean it will stay the case (Especially in Amazon world).


I've had the same thoughts since September. My ranking seems to track pages read as much as sales - but again anecdotal at best. I personally believe that Amazon would be a fool not to factor pages read into its ranking algorithms (assuming they deal with fake books and fake reads).


----------



## Not any more

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I totally agree. I'm part of multiple groups and the people complaining about huge drops in reads are the very small minority rather than the majority. There's even one group I'm part of where no one is having issues. We're talking big and small sellers. It's not a "vast majority" of authors by any stretch of the imagination. That does not mean those feeling the pinch aren't important, but it's hardly all authors.
> I also think this is a correction from before. That's why the box set people are getting hit so hard. They used to get paid as long as people flipped to the end of the book. Now they're just getting paid for the books read and it's jarring. I think it's only going to get worse for box set people because I expect another cap to be instituted at some point, perhaps 1,000 KENPC maximum.
> I always knew there would be a correction, just like i always knew that the flat fee would never stick. Amazon warned people months before they made the change to KU2 and no one listened. They sent out an email telling authors what KU readers wanted, the length, and no one listened to them.
> KU is not going to be for everyone and everyone has to make the decision for themselves. If it's not working for you, definitely get out. It can't possibly work for everyone.


I read all the griping about page reads even as I watched my income drop this fall. From a best-ver month in JAugust, to half that (but still great) September, to an absolutely flat second week in December where I made $58 the whole week. The first twelve days of the month showed 5,500 pages read, a far cry from the 175,000 in August.

New release on Dec. 13 with a big promotional push. 10 days later, I have 450 sales and over 50,000 pages read, 40% from the moribund back list, and it gets better every day.

Merry Christmas, indeed.


----------



## cdk

> Pages read has absolutely nothing to do with rank. You get the rank boost when someone borrows the book. You get the pages when they bother to read it. The pages read has absolutely nothing to do with the rank boost.


Are we sure this is still the case. I know the conventional wisdom is that page reads do not affect rank, but they seem to in small increments. It may not be evident to people who always sell a lot of books, but I have a book that usually hovers around 700K during nonpromotional periods. Whenever the book is borrowed, the rank drops to the 100K range and then begins to increase again. When the book is finally read at a later date, the rank of the book drops in small increments - for example from 721K to 719K, which is too small to be a borrow. This wasn't always the case. I figure it's possible the drop in rank could be attributed to Amazon closing accounts and removing books, but the slight drop in rank always coincides with page reads being recorded on my KDP dashboard. I don't know what else to attribute to the minor drop in rank other than page reads, but I'm open to suggestions.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

So I think we can infer -- that Amazon doesn't like box sets anymore. But what other behaviors don't they like? And how can authors avoid getting stung by Amazon's efforts to control scamming? 

As much as it pains me to say it-- Authors who do what Amazon likes, get rewarded.  Do what they don't like (even unintentionally) and you get the smack down. 

So what are the rules now... what does Amazon want from authors? And how can we structure our ebooks so that they don't get dinged for false page reads?


----------



## eroticatorium

cdk said:


> Are we sure this is still the case. I know the conventional wisdom is that page reads do not affect rank, but they seem to in small increments. It may not be evident to people who always sell a lot of books, but I have a book that usually hovers around 700K during nonpromotional periods. Whenever the book is borrowed, the rank drops to the 100K range and then begins to increase again. When the book is finally read at a later date, the rank of the book drops in small increments - for example from 721K to 719K, which is too small to be a borrow. This wasn't always the case. I figure it's possible the drop in rank could be attributed to Amazon closing accounts and removing books, but the slight drop in rank always coincides with page reads being recorded on my KDP dashboard. I don't know what else to attribute to the minor drop in rank other than page reads, but I'm open to suggestions.


I've read suggestions that Amazon tracks clicks and what people do on a page, and that it can affect your rank. So maybe getting lots of clicks, or the people who do look at the page check out the reviews or the Look Inside, Amazon might consider that a very slight show of support (which seems logical enough: out of the millions of books that get very few sales, the ones that will eventually get sales might be identifiable because they are getting clicks and almost-buys whereas the ones that will never sell a thing get no attention whatsoever).


----------



## Colin

eroticatorium said:


> I've read suggestions that Amazon tracks clicks and what people do on a page, and that it can affect your rank. So maybe getting lots of clicks, or the people who do look at the page check out the reviews or the Look Inside, Amazon might consider that a very slight show of support (which seems logical enough: out of the millions of books that get very few sales, the ones that will eventually get sales might be identifiable because they are getting clicks and almost-buys whereas the ones that will never sell a thing get no attention whatsoever).


This sounds fairly plausible. I've noticed that when I spend a certain amount of time clicking on various books for various reasons, the search order of those books has subsequently improved. It's purely observational, but if true, could give click farming operators new opportunities to skew the system.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Colin said:


> This sounds fairly plausible. I've noticed that when I spend a certain amount of time clicking on various books for various reasons, the search order of those books has subsequently improved. It's purely observational, but if true, could give click farming operators new opportunities to skew the system.


They improve for you, not for everybody. Amazon weights your search results by your personal preference.


----------



## Colin

Amanda M. Lee said:


> They improve for you, not for everybody. Amazon weights your search results by your personal preference.


True.


----------



## 9 Diamonds

After a few weeks of monitoring borrows on our titles and seeing the pages read appearing, I think Amazon seems to have fixed things -- for us at least. Everything seems to tally as it should and there don't appear to be any huge shortfalls or discrepancies.


----------



## Joseph Malik

I added an svg file last week, hoping that it would disable Page Flip. Everything was working great -- page reads up, no crashes to single digit KENP -- until yesterday. Yesterday and today I've had sales, but zero page reads. Two days in a row with zero reads. Really? 

Clickthrus and purchases in line with ~1000 reads a day for the past five days, and roughly that many reads, and then two days with the same click-through and sales rates . . . and zero reads.

I'm telling you, it's an updating glitch. It's hit or miss for some of us when it should be adding the page reads throughout the day. Sometimes it just doesn't connect.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Joseph Malik

Third day at zero reads. Nine clickthroughs today. No sales, though. Nine clickthroughs generally gets me 500-1000 page reads.

And something interesting: when I preview the book, the .svg file that I added is no longer there. I checked it in my Kindle Previewer offline, and it shows up fine. So, I just re-uploaded my epub with the svg in the front, and I'll check it tonight. 

If an svg file makes it impossible to use Page Flip, might Amazon have found a way to strip it?


----------



## tresero

Joseph Malik said:


> Third day at zero reads. Nine clickthroughs today. No sales, though. Nine clickthroughs generally gets me 500-1000 page reads.
> 
> And something interesting: when I preview the book, the .svg file that I added is no longer there. I checked it in my Kindle Previewer offline, and it shows up fine. So, I just re-uploaded my epub with the svg in the front, and I'll check it tonight.
> 
> If an svg file makes it impossible to use Page Flip, might Amazon have found a way to strip it?


I have always considered it a temporary fix.


----------



## Carey Lewis

Guys, everything is fine! Since Dec. 9th, I've had three days with page reads. Those days are a 3 page read day, a 1 page read day, and a whopping 11 page read day. That's normal reader behavior. When readers find a book they love, they want to cherish it for a long time.   I wish there was a bigger eye rolling emoticon.

Actually my reads were bad for awhile, then went way up again for about a month, and then my book went out of KU. I decided to reenter it and have gotten the above page reads since. I've never gone more than four days without a page read before, so I'm willing to bet there's some truth to this A/B testing - when I re-enrolled, I got put into the bad group.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Joseph Malik said:


> Third day at zero reads. Nine clickthroughs today. No sales, though. Nine clickthroughs generally gets me 500-1000 page reads.


I don't want to discourage you from monitoring your sales graph closely, but I should point out that having only one book out will result in wild fluctuations in numbers from day to day. If I look at pages read for my individual books, they can swing between under 100 and 1800 (and back again!) within a single week. There's just no predicting it.

On the other hand, I haven't had a single day this month with zero pagesread for any book. Many, many days with zero sales, but none with zero pages read. So that does suggest something's amiss with yours.


----------



## 9 Diamonds

PaulineMRoss said:


> On the other hand, I haven't had a single day this month with zero pagesread for any book. Many, many days with zero sales, but none with zero pages read. So that does suggest something's amiss with yours.


Much the same for us. I think you may be right there, Pauline.


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## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## Lydniz

Atlantisatheart said:


> Make of this as you will.
> 
> I was doing a little pruning to my books yesterday and changed the data on over forty books, nothing major,a keyword here, slight price shift there. Now when I went to bed 4AM UK time these books were still rolling through the updating cycle and my sales were totalling 88 for the day - when I checked them this morning at 10AM UK time the sales were on 160. Given the fact that the cut off should have clicked in about 5AM UK time - in one hour my sales doubled for the day
> 
> I think Amazon has a BIG problem somewhere that doesn't just hit page reads.


I'm not sure this phenomenon is a problem as such. I quite often get a sales and page reads dump first thing in the morning. This is not new.


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## H.C.

It's been "cannon" for sometimes that if you change your keywords and resubmit that you get a page reads boost. I use this tool sparingly if my numbers flatline (always seems to work).


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Herefortheride said:


> It's been "cannon" for sometimes that if you change your keywords and resubmit that you get a page reads boost. I use this tool sparingly if my numbers flatline (always seems to work).


I didn't notice that working for me - been flatlined with page reads and sales for ages. Will give it a try.


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## 9 Diamonds

Ah the borrows are picking up for the end of year . Page reads to follow ...


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## BlouBryant

PaulineMRoss said:


> ...., but none with zero pages read. So that does suggest something's amiss with yours.


I guarantee you that it's possible to go days (many in fact) without page reads. That may speak to my cover/blurb/overall quality, but I can confirm that 0 (zero) is achievable.



BB


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Update on _The Dinosaur Chronicles_ since it's gone ex-KU:

Direct sales appear to have gone up. Also, in conjunction with going ex-KU, I upped the price to make it look less like an Indie offering. This too may have been a factor.

And now, at 70% of 3.95, every time I see a sale, I think, "Well, there go 550 borrows!"



Yes, my snark meter is pegging. On this, the last day of the year ...


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## LGAdams

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> And now, at 70% of 3.95, every time I see a sale, I think, "Well, there go 550 borrows!"


Wellll really just one or two borrows, right? 550 individual borrows would be pretty great.


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## Seneca42

LGAdams said:


> Wellll really just one or two borrows, right? 550 individual borrows would be pretty great.


think he was being sarcastic  Ie. with KU glitches 550 borrows = 1 purchase at 70% in terms of royalties.


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## bsgibbs

I'm really confused. I am a new author, so I am in the struggle to get noticed and don't have a sales history to use as a comparison. But on Dec 30, my two books in a series both peaked after a steady decline (one up to about 48K and the other to 116K).  But as of today, the only evidence in my KDP report to show why this would happen is a 15 page read for one of the books.  Neither book is showing any sales, and the 2nd book has no page reads.  What could explain this? I wrote Amazon a nicely worded letter to ask what is going on. 

I also had a strange experience with Createspace in which a sale seemed to disappear.  During the day a sale appeared but later in the day it was gone. Then the next sale another sale appeared.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

bsgibbs said:


> I also had a strange experience with Createspace in which a sale seemed to disappear. During the day a sale appeared but later in the day it was gone. Then the next sale another sale appeared.


I also saw this - but wasn't 100% sure about seeing the sale so dismissed it as an error on my part.


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## Ros_Jackson

bsgibbs said:


> I'm really confused. I am a new author, so I am in the struggle to get noticed and don't have a sales history to use as a comparison. But on Dec 30, my two books in a series both peaked after a steady decline (one up to about 48K and the other to 116K). But as of today, the only evidence in my KDP report to show why this would happen is a 15 page read for one of the books. Neither book is showing any sales, and the 2nd book has no page reads. What could explain this? I wrote Amazon a nicely worded letter to ask what is going on.


Ghost borrows. That's when someone borrows your book but doesn't read it yet - you are credited with the borrow by a jump in rank immediately. This is normal, common, and nothing to worry about.

You will also see fluctuations in rank as books are taken on and off Kindle, but usually only downwards. The exception is when a lot of books ahead of yours are unpublished, which can be the result of Amazon cracking down on scammers or authors unpublishing themselves. However, what you've described sounds like ghost borrows.


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## bsgibbs

Ros_Jackson said:


> Ghost borrows. That's when someone borrows your book but doesn't read it yet - you are credited with the borrow by a jump in rank immediately. This is normal, common, and nothing to worry about.
> 
> You will also see fluctuations in rank as books are taken on and off Kindle, but usually only downwards. The exception is when a lot of books ahead of yours are unpublished, which can be the result of Amazon cracking down on scammers or authors unpublishing themselves. However, what you've described sounds like ghost borrows.


Thank you! It's hard enough to be new, struggling to get noticed. Wondering whether a system problem is keeping any hard fought results from materializing is worse.


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## dragontucker

I got a "1 page read" today. My KU reads have been down the last few days after being up for a few weeks. I hate it when I see one page has been read. I feel like it's an error since it's been discussed here.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

dragontucker said:


> I got a "1 page read" today. My KU reads have been down the last few days after being up for a few weeks. I hate it when I see one page has been read. I feel like it's an error since it's been discussed here.


I can guarantee a good twenty people start my books and quit after one page on any given day. Most people I know absolutely realize if they're going to like something that soon.


----------



## PhoenixS

***********


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## tommy gun

I put my first book into KU on December 20th.  Not getting a lot of page reads but sometimes it looks strange.  300 page reads and then 7 page reads the next few days.

I thought when someone 'borrowed' the book you would get a rank boost?  My ranking has been in line with what I have seen from the sales.  The borrows are either not happening unless they are 1 a day, occassionally OR they arent being reported.

Thankfully I only have this one short series in.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

tommy gun said:


> I put my first book into KU on December 20th. Not getting a lot of page reads but sometimes it looks strange. 300 page reads and then 7 page reads the next few days.
> 
> I thought when someone 'borrowed' the book you would get a rank boost? My ranking has been in line with what I have seen from the sales. The borrows are either not happening unless they are 1 a day, occassionally OR they arent being reported.
> 
> Thankfully I only have this one short series in.


Is 300 pages close to the KENPC of one full read? To me that makes sense. It sounds as if one person sat down and read the entire book in a sitting. Then it sounds as if someone else didn't. The problem with extrapolating with numbers like that when you're dealing with one read it that the swings on the graph seem huge (when they're really not).


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I feel like giving up. I've had 3 sales in the last 30 days and no page reads on 27 of those days  . This is not normal for my books. I would do some advertising, but we proved the page reads were not being counted on at least one of my books, so it seems like a waste of time  .


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## tommy gun

Thank you Amanda.

I've been catching up on the thread regularly and keep losing sight of reality.  page reads fluctuate and only having one book in means bigger fluctuation. 
Just a new to KU guy who is worrying about making the wrong decision.....
Yes pages are just over 300.


----------



## David VanDyke

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I feel like giving up. I've had 3 sales in the last 30 days and no page reads on 27 of those days . This is not normal for my books. I would do some advertising, but we proved the page reads were not being counted on at least one of my books, so it seems like a waste of time .


Jan, maybe going wide is the answer for you. No more page read issues, and you can experiment with varying promotions strategies without Select handcuffing you at all.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

David VanDyke said:


> Jan, maybe going wide is the answer for you. No more page read issues, and you can experiment with varying promotions strategies without Select handcuffing you at all.


I tried going wide a few years ago, but the payment was a problem. You had to have a US bank account, or PayPal (I can't receive PayPal payments). With some websites I couldn't get past entering my address. They had a drop-down menu of countries, including SA, but if you didn't put in a US zip code you couldn't go any further. I gave up.


----------



## H.C.

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I feel like giving up. I've had 3 sales in the last 30 days and no page reads on 27 of those days . This is not normal for my books. I would do some advertising, but we proved the page reads were not being counted on at least one of my books, so it seems like a waste of time .


Why are you in KU? You should be trying your luck wide.

I mean if nothing here is working for you why not drop out and try something else?


----------



## Not any more

After a record August, sales and pages read tailed off throughout the fall, hitting a low of a $58 week in December. Promotions didn't do a lot of good, but I've been promoting the same books for the past two years. Finished the last book in my series in Nov. 2014.

Released new book on Dec. 13. Total pages read went from 0 to 30,000 a day in two weeks, seem to be leveling at around 24,000 a day. 30-50% of those reads are on the 5 books that had died. The past week was my best month ever.

Back to working on my next book.


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## dragontucker

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I can guarantee a good twenty people start my books and quit after one page on any given day. Most people I know absolutely realize if they're going to like something that soon.


That is good to hear. I thought maybe it was an error. I read something about it a while back. But....maybe someone did just read the first page and not like it. Or.....they had to quit reading because they had to go to lunch or something lol.


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## Gertie Kindle

Those one page reads didn't start for me until about about a year ago. Before that, I never had a one page read. Maybe two or three, but not one. I finally started a thread about it, actually a year ago today.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,229005.msg3188841.html#msg3188841


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I feel like giving up. I've had 3 sales in the last 30 days and no page reads on 27 of those days . This is not normal for my books. I would do some advertising, but we proved the page reads were not being counted on at least one of my books, so it seems like a waste of time .


What David VanDyke said.

Or, you could pull, say, three volumes out of KU, up the price of each by a buck, to end in x.95, and see what happens to them.

And as to the payment issue, surely things have improved in the last few years. You could always do a "contact us" at Smashwords or D2D and specifically ask what's available for authors based in SA.

And yes, I know your name's not Shirley.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What David VanDyke said.
> 
> Or, you could pull, say, three volumes out of KU, up the price of each by a buck, to end in x.95, and see what happens to them.


Yes, but Jan tried going wide a few years ago and had a problem with payment info.



Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I tried going wide a few years ago, but the payment was a problem. You had to have a US bank account, or PayPal (I can't receive PayPal payments). With some websites I couldn't get past entering my address. They had a drop-down menu of countries, including SA, but if you didn't put in a US zip code you couldn't go any further. I gave up.


Jan, I know it would be a pain, but maybe you should have them pay you by check? Or contact D2D and SW to ask them if things have changed or how they could help you.


----------



## AllyWho

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I tried going wide a few years ago, but the payment was a problem. You had to have a US bank account, or PayPal...


That's not correct. I'm outside the US and don't have a US bank account and payment with other vendors has never been an issue. I am paid by either PayPal, wire transfer or cheque depending on vendor and available methods of payment. I've not encountered any vendor that requires a US zip code?


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## David VanDyke

A few years is forever in this business, and payment systems are constantly modernizing.

I googled a few things like "PayPal South Africa" and "Electronic Payment Services South Africa" and found several possibilities. It appears PayPal can be used to receive money in SA and you have to transfer the money to a bank within 30 days (this is a 2013 article, though, so things may have changed) and a cursory glance shows other dot-za payment services that specifically say they service SA.

I bet you can figure out some way to do it.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

AliceW said:


> That's not correct. I'm outside the US and don't have a US bank account and payment with other vendors has never been an issue. I am paid by either PayPal, wire transfer or cheque depending on vendor and available methods of payment. I've not encountered any vendor that requires a US zip code?


Thanks, but I can't receive PayPal payments unless I open a bank account with another bank and put in a hefty amount that gets no interest. Cheques get lost in the post and cost a fortune to bank and take weeks before going through (I used to receive cheques from Amazon). Altogether, it was going to be more trouble than it was worth. I think I'll just have to sit it out and maybe try a bit of marketing later on


----------



## katrina46

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks, but I can't receive PayPal payments unless I open a bank account with another bank and put in a hefty amount that gets no interest. Cheques get lost in the post and cost a fortune to bank and take weeks before going through (I used to receive cheques from Amazon). Altogether, it was going to be more trouble than it was worth. I think I'll just have to sit it out and maybe try a bit of marketing later on


Whatever you do I wouldn't give up. KU 2 hurt me, but I bounced back and now I do better than I did in KU1. Granted, I am wide, but my real point is that there are always ups and downs in publishing. Things could head North as fast as they headed South. It can change either way overnight.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

katrina46 said:


> Whatever you do I wouldn't give up. KU 2 hurt me, but I bounced back and now I do better than I did in KU1. Granted, I am wide, but my real point is that there are always ups and downs in publishing. Things could head North as fast as they headed South. It can change either way overnight.


Thanks for the encouragement. I will start sending positive thoughts to Amazon


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks, but I can't receive PayPal payments unless I open a bank account with another bank and put in a hefty amount that gets no interest. Cheques get lost in the post and cost a fortune to bank and take weeks before going through (I used to receive cheques from Amazon). Altogether, it was going to be more trouble than it was worth. I think I'll just have to sit it out and maybe try a bit of marketing later on


Have you investigated Payoneer? I don't use it myself, but I hear they set up a U.S. bank account for you and you access that via an international debit card of some kind. If anyone here uses Payoneer, maybe they can chime in.

Definitely investigate before using, and try to get feedback from other users first.

BTW: In my earlier post, when I suggested removing a few books from KU, upping their prices by a buck, and seeing what would happen, I was NOT, as one poster inferred, suggesting you remove them from KDP.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Have you investigated Payoneer? I don't use it myself, but I hear they set up a U.S. bank account for you and you access that via an international debit card of some kind. If anyone here uses Payoneer, maybe they can chime in.
> 
> Definitely investigate before using, and try to get feedback from other users first.
> 
> BTW: In my earlier post, when I suggested removing a few books from KU, upping their prices by a buck, and seeing what would happen, I was NOT, as one poster inferred, suggesting you remove them from KDP.


Thanks. I do use Payoneer for my Amazon payments, and what a pleasure that has been after years of cheques/checks going missing. They originally only took payments from a few places, but they have increased their scope of late. Having read of the problems some people had trying to get books removed from other places so they could return to KU I'm reluctant to mess with anything. But I will think about it.


----------



## Philip Gibson

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks. I do use Payoneer for my Amazon payments, and what a pleasure that has been after years of cheques/checks going missing. They originally only took payments from a few places, but they have increased their scope of late. Having read of the problems some people had trying to get books removed from other places so they could return to KU I'm reluctant to mess with anything. But I will think about it.


I also use Payoneer and am very happy with the service. Except, that is, this rather odd feature of their terms and conditions I received from them recently:



> Thank you for you your email and we apologize for the late response.
> 
> Kindly note that receiving funds from a pension program through our services is against the Terms and Conditions. All Payments received via our services have to be against a product you sell or a service you provide. (Such as you receive now from Amazon)
> 
> In such case you will need to contact the pension program to see what options they offer to send the funds to you in Laos.


Philip


----------



## KelliWolfe

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I tried going wide a few years ago, but the payment was a problem. You had to have a US bank account, or PayPal (I can't receive PayPal payments). With some websites I couldn't get past entering my address. They had a drop-down menu of countries, including SA, but if you didn't put in a US zip code you couldn't go any further. I gave up.


Jan, you might consider publishing wide through Streetlib. While they have a US branch, the "main" company is based out of Italy and isn't nearly as US-centric. They've got more stores that they distribute to than anyone else, including Google Play. Super nice and helpful people, too.


----------



## Laran Mithras

Update on my situation: 3/4s of my 75 or so books are out of KU. The rest should be out by the end of this month.

I approached this decision with trepidation. How was this going to impact my monthly income? In effect, my sales were up overall for 2016, but flattened a few times (April and September). Meanwhile, page reads went from 3K per day to 500 per day with some days well below 100. So I removed all of my penname books.

The result, sales are up. Instead of getting 40 cents for a KU read, I'm now getting $2 for a sale. 
Another interesting observation, my page reads stayed flat, or sort of. Page reads *climbed* during December the more books I pulled out. I'm at 700 pages per day right now with an end-of-December spike to 3K page reads.

Hmm. I might go with "they screwed me on page reads temporarily." Is there a problem? I believe so. Book releases usually followed by enormous spikes in page reads were instead showing *decreases*. Smelt bad.

So, out I came. Scary, considering KU was giving me hundreds per month in income. Now that I'm out, I'm making far better money and I'm *not wide*. I think the all-or-nothing approach to selling books here or there or everywhere isn't a necessity. For now, I'm selling my books on Amazon where I am the one determining my price and profit. Are they being honest on sales? I sure hope so, though I have also seen a few very strange spikes. My paperbacks have also increased, so coming out of Kindle hasn't stung even the tiniest bit. I still might go wide.

How does it feel being out of KU? Much better. No more worries and hassles with their "we'll pay you what we want" attitude in ever-changing "you're shafted" KU versions.

As to Amazon's competition, we all know one thing for certain: everything always changes. Someone, somewhere is going to come along and offer a better book-publishing service. Just takes time.


----------



## Seneca42

Laran Mithras said:


> How does it feel being out of KU? Much better. No more worries and hassles with their "we'll pay you what we want" attitude in ever-changing "you're shafted" KU versions.


This. I can't tell you how much freer I feel now that I'm out.

The most important thing above all else to me is to always stay in a productive frame of mind for writing. That means anything that annoys me and impinges on my ability to get into the "writing zone" doesn't have a place in my life. Not saying I'm a delicate flower, merely that I minimize distractions.

KU for me, with the glitches I was experiencing, was becoming enough of a distraction that it had to go. December was my best month ever as direct sales shot up. This month my permafree strategy is doing WAY better than I ever expected. Five days into being permafree, one $5 promo, and already 350 downloads.

Saying goodbye to KU was the best decision ever. Now, we'll see if I'm still saying that in a year though


----------



## dragontucker

Just wanted to report that I am having my best KU day ever  It's not much....but it's officially my best day ever at right over 1200 page reads today. I know....it's low, but it shows me the potential in KU. I cannot wait until I start to have 10k page read days.


----------



## 5ngela

For author outside KU, I hope they can join Scribd. That way they can still be in subscription game without being exclusive to Amazon.


----------



## H.C.

This thread has lost it's steam. 

Did KU win?


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Herefortheride said:


> This thread has lost it's steam.
> 
> Did KU win?


I'm just tired of screwing with KU. I've left. (Well, as soon as the last of my titles doesn't renew, in February.)

Also, what this means is that when I go to my KDP "Reports" page, I no longer have to scroll the page down.


----------



## H.C.

I'm hoping my second in the series, Black Dragon Deceivers will help me punch through.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

TwistedTales said:


> Nah, I think some left KU and others stayed. All of my books were out by end of 2016. I released another book and it's been selling around 20 or so a day. The promo runs have just started and I decided to give it one tour of KU. I want to see what it does to the ranks and how the reads play out. Well, it sold well over a hundred in a one day/one ad promo and earned one page read in KU. I could pull it out as it's still within the 5 day period, but I think I'll let it run the full 12 weeks and track the results. I have plenty of other series to use as the launch pad for the other sites I'm loading onto.
> 
> The advantage of using this book as a test is that it's new. I have numbers and ranks pre KU so I can track the post KU impact. Our books were always well read in KU and there's no reason why this one wouldn't be either, however I'm skeptical it will be. Although we still pulled good page read numbers in KU, I believed they were lower than they should have been based on historical performance. This book will be a clean test.
> 
> If it doesn't return decent page reads despite having solid sales then I'll know there's something very wrong with KU. So far, and its hasn't been very long yet, it's done nothing worth noting. In fact, other books now out of KU are getting more page reads. It's ranking between 2 - 3,000 right now in the .com store and that also suggests it's not getting many downloads. It's ranked about right for the sales.
> 
> So, I don't think KU won exactly. All this thread did was highlight there might well be a problem. Some people like me will be testing it. It takes time to run these sorts of trials because you need to set up situations and accrue data. Of course, experience will vary based on many factors so I'll only prove what's true for me.


I hope you will come back with the results.


----------



## 75845

Just a little note to add on Page Flip. My Android app opens books in full screen mode, but not in Page Flip however if I tap at the bottom of the screen to exit full screen mode so that I can use another app. When the device leaves full screen mode Kindle automatically transfers to Page Flip. So that is an easy way to discover Page Flip and I think it must have arrived in one of the more recent updates as I only discovered that Page Flip existed on Kindle through this thread, although admittedly I usually read my Kindle books on an e-ink Kindle. When I opened the Kindle app on my large tablet (its 75% of the length and width of my laptop screen) it does the same as the phone, but with the difference that a screen of that size is much more readable in Page Flip. To add to KU worries I had just in normal mode acceptting the sync forward to where I had read in the Kindle, but Page Flip asked me again if I wanted to sync forward and in the bottom left where it normally offers to chance to go page to last page in normal mode it was offering to take me back to the page prior to the sync forward. Given the suspicion that KU counts the last page read not the furtherest page read that it is a worrying glitch.

Just adding that to the conversation; after Amazon's Page Flip admission I left KU as both a publisher and a reader.


----------



## Laran Mithras

*I lost all steam with KU, yes*. My books are still dropping out (all are cancelled). Last one will be out of the program beginning of February. 

Decided to only sell through Amazon and begin going wide with the rest. Someone mentioned Scribd's sub service and I thought looking into it was worth a shot. Being lazy, I signed on with Draft2Digital and checked all the pubs. Getting all my books on there is going to take weeks.

My KU page reads continue to climb (oddly enough) the more books that come out of the program. At this point, I don't care if they're screwing me on page reads, fudging me on page reads, delaying reporting my page reads, or glitching them. I just want to be done with it.

I have strong doubts of ever returning all of my books to KU. I don't think I would ever put more than a single book in as a test - if that. *I think I'd rather wait for a worthy competitor.*


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Laran Mithras said:


> *I lost all steam with KU, yes*. My books are still dropping out (all are cancelled). Last one will be out of the program beginning of February.
> 
> Decided to only sell through Amazon and begin going wide with the rest. Someone mentioned Scribd's sub service and I thought looking into it was worth a shot. Being lazy, I signed on with Draft2Digital and checked all the pubs. Getting all my books on there is going to take weeks.
> 
> My KU page reads continue to climb (oddly enough) the more books that come out of the program. At this point, I don't care if they're screwing me on page reads, fudging me on page reads, delaying reporting my page reads, or glitching them. I just want to be done with it.
> 
> I have strong doubts of ever returning all of my books to KU. I don't think I would ever put more than a single book in as a test - if that. *I think I'd rather wait for a worthy competitor.*


I can't fault your reasoning--I'm going that way, too. What made you choose D2D over SW? (Just collecting testimonials at this point.)


----------



## Laran Mithras

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I can't fault your reasoning--I'm going that way, too. What made you choose D2D over SW? (Just collecting testimonials at this point.)


Another thread here by one of the successful authors kept stressing "never Smashwords." Apparently a lot of problems with payments and such. The thread was from 3 years ago, so perhaps they improved.

However, I considered the message and used D2D instead. I have not yet delved into author-experience with D2D yet. Perhaps I should...


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Laran Mithras said:


> Another thread here by one of the successful authors kept stressing "never Smashwords." Apparently a lot of problems with payments and such. The thread was from 3 years ago, so perhaps they improved.
> 
> However, I considered the message and used D2D instead. I have not yet delved into author-experience with D2D yet. Perhaps I should...


I recall reading somewhere where an author used _both_ SW and D2D. How can that work? SW and D2D go after many of the same markets. Or do you just have to be careful on the markets you select to cover from each aggregator and avoid overlap? What happens if there _is_ an overlap?


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I recall reading somewhere where an author used _both_ SW and D2D. How can that work? SW and D2D go after many of the same markets. Or do you just have to be careful on the markets you select to cover from each aggregator and avoid overlap? What happens if there _is_ an overlap?


D2D's customer service is outstanding compared to SW. Their interface is also much easier. When authors use both, they use D2D as their main distributor and SW for all the outlets that D2D doesn't cover.

If you ever decide to go back to Select/KU, you'll find it infinitely easier to take your books down from D2D than it is from SW.

I think I read somewhere that SW is going to start paying monthly instead of quarterly.

The big advantage to SW is the coupons and the coupon sales they have every year.


----------



## Cactus Lady

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I recall reading somewhere where an author used _both_ SW and D2D. How can that work? SW and D2D go after many of the same markets. Or do you just have to be careful on the markets you select to cover from each aggregator and avoid overlap? What happens if there _is_ an overlap?


With both D2D and Smashwords, you can select which stores to distribute to. I use D2D for the big ones - Kobo, Apple, B&N, and the other places they distribute to. So on Smashwords, I de-select distribution to those stores and select the places Smashwords distributes to that D2D doesn't (whatever you do, do NOT select to distribute to Flipkart. I think they've stopped selling ebooks, and Smashwords was going to stop distributing to them anyway because they were so difficult to work with, but just in case. Don't go to Flipkart.) Smashwords also has its own storefront, which D2D does not. I occasionally get a good chunk of sales there, and you can also do free/discount coupon codes for your books at the Smashwords store. It's a good way to send out free copies (reviewers, giveaways, whatever).

Oh, and one problem with Smashwords has been that they pay quarterly, but they just announced that this year they're moving to monthly payments (don't know if they're keeping the $10 threshold to get paid, but D2D also has a $10 threshold).


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

My thanks to Gertie & Kyra for the SW/D2D info. 'Tis appreciated!


----------



## DebDougall

Laran Mithras said:


> Another thread here by one of the successful authors kept stressing "never Smashwords." Apparently a lot of problems with payments and such. The thread was from 3 years ago, so perhaps they improved.
> 
> However, I considered the message and used D2D instead. I have not yet delved into author-experience with D2D yet. Perhaps I should...


I took all my books out of KU in the last quarter of 2016 and put them wide using D2D which was a walk in the park.

I've never used Smashwords but I can certainly vouch for D2D. It's the easiest platform to publish on and their customer service is prompt and excellent.


----------



## Laran Mithras

D2D is indeed extremely easy to use - I would say even easier than Kindle's upload process.

Started uploading some of my backlist and newest releases. Had one title blocked that I didn't want blocked and worked with CS the very same day to fix it. Painless.


----------



## David VanDyke

I have a new hypothesis about what's happened regarding the KU page read reduction. It may explain some of what's going on, or it may illusory, but I'm throwing it out for critique.

If new algos can detect double-publishing in Select, might the KU algo discard/suppress page reads from one or both copies?

It might, say, divide page reads by the number of copies it finds--if the book is published twice in Select, it counts all page reads divided by 2, etc.

Or it might only credit page reads from the earliest published version.

Or some combination of these.

This would neatly explain why my box sets of KU books have performed so dismally in page reads compared to similar sets last year. My ordinary releases seem to be having no issues.


----------



## eroticatorium

David VanDyke said:


> I have a new hypothesis about what's happened regarding the KU page read reduction. It may explain some of what's going on, or it may illusory, but I'm throwing it out for critique.
> 
> If new algos can detect double-publishing in Select, might the KU algo discard/suppress page reads from one or both copies?
> 
> It might, say, divide page reads by the number of copies it finds--if the book is published twice in Select, it counts all page reads divided by 2, etc.
> 
> Or it might only credit page reads from the earliest published version.
> 
> Or some combination of these.
> 
> This would neatly explain why my box sets of KU books have performed so dismally in page reads compared to similar sets last year. My ordinary releases seem to be having no issues.


My box sets are doing very well in KU. When I had a downturn, they seemed less affected than ordinary books. Whatever happened was turned off my account in December, it seems, and my box sets have been doing great in KU. Sales have also taken a noticeable shift towards larger and more expensive bundles.


----------



## Laran Mithras

I never did put out any boxed sets under this name.

I have very few books remaining in KU and my page reads are still going up. The only difference is that my page reads for December and January are showing less wild swings. Instead of 2000 page swings, I'm getting 100-300 page swings.

*Possible that something might either have been: a) fixed or; b) turned off.*

However heartening that might sound, I've doubled my income *by getting out of* KU. A 2.99 90 page novella was getting me a little over 40 cents in KU (IF the reporting was accurate cough cough) while a sale (those are increasing) gets me $2.00. Any future foray back into the nightmare of KU will be with only one book at a time.


----------



## 39416

Amazon has never officially admitted to the Page Flip one-page-reported problem have they? (I still get those one-pagers every once and a while, which _never _happened before Page Flip.)


----------



## Becca Mills

David VanDyke said:


> I have a new hypothesis about what's happened regarding the KU page read reduction. It may explain some of what's going on, or it may illusory, but I'm throwing it out for critique.
> 
> If new algos can detect double-publishing in Select, might the KU algo discard/suppress page reads from one or both copies?
> 
> It might, say, divide page reads by the number of copies it finds--if the book is published twice in Select, it counts all page reads divided by 2, etc.
> 
> Or it might only credit page reads from the earliest published version.
> 
> Or some combination of these.
> 
> This would neatly explain why my box sets of KU books have performed so dismally in page reads compared to similar sets last year. My ordinary releases seem to be having no issues.


A system like that would make perfect sense, from Amazon's perspective.

Of course, they wouldn't need it if they just had a good way to permanently count actual pages actually read. If they did, there'd be no risk of giving double credit for pages when a reader finds a book they've already read in a boxed set and skips over it.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

loraininflorida said:


> Amazon has never officially admitted to the Page Flip one-page-reported problem have they? (I still get those one-pagers every once and a while, which _never _happened before Page Flip.)


I got my first 1-pager on the day after KU2 was introduced (2nd July 2015). There have always been 1-pagers. There might be more now but they're not a new thing and they're not just because of page flip.

Amazon has said that page flip doesn't count pages read by design, because it's a navigation aid, not intended for reading with. They say that the number of people using it to read by isn't significant. They don't recognise it as a problem.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I've just had 22 page reads - the first page reads since Dec 22nd!!

I'm also having a problem with SALES. I started a thread about the missing payment. No reply from KDP. I wonder how many other sales payments have disappeared because writers have so many they can't keep track? (there is at least one advantage of having single figure sales  )
http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=246202.new;topicseen#top


----------



## Gertie Kindle

PaulineMRoss said:


> I got my first 1-pager on the day after KU2 was introduced (2nd July 2015). There have always been 1-pagers. There might be more now but they're not a new thing and they're not just because of page flip.
> 
> Amazon has said that page flip doesn't count pages read by design, because it's a navigation aid, not intended for reading with. They say that the number of people using it to read by isn't significant. They don't recognise it as a problem.


my one page read started over a year ago. But, I havent gotten one in a while.


----------



## Laran Mithras

loraininflorida said:


> Amazon has never officially admitted to the Page Flip one-page-reported problem have they? (I still get those one-pagers every once and a while, which _never _happened before Page Flip.)


As far as I know, they keep denying it - and ignoring evidence to the contrary.


----------



## 39416

An author on another forum complained to Amazon about the Page Flip thing and got this response:

"We've checked our records and found that the Page Flip software isn't affecting authors in a material way."


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

loraininflorida said:


> An author on another forum complained to Amazon about the Page Flip thing and got this response:
> 
> "We've checked our records and found that the Page Flip software isn't affecting authors in a material way."


If that quote is accurate, it's BS. Because of the way Page-Flip works (reportedly), there wouldn't _be_ any
records to check.


----------



## ThrillerWriter

TwistedTales said:


> I've been running a trial with a new release. It's a three week trial and I have one week left to run.
> 
> Preliminary numbers are:
> 
> Two weeks sales: approx 550
> One week KU page reads: approx 13,000
> 
> They're currently levelling out to around 2,500 per day, which is pretty low. If this is as good as it gets then going wide is my best option.


What genre?


----------



## mach 5

December reports are out. 

.0052

To me, this string of half a cent and higher for several months, especially December, shows there's a problem.


----------



## David VanDyke

Pardon, but are there more than 2? I thought this is only the second above 0.5?


----------



## mach 5

I have October .00519xxx
November .005374
Dec .0052xxx

edited to add that, for example, December 2015 was .004609


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Another one-page read. Will patiently wait to see if it turns into a two-page read.

Still no sale showing on the month-to-date graph for the sale showing on the dashboard on 4th January. Be interesting to see what happens to the report at the end of the month. I expect the sale will just disappear  .


----------



## SimboSmith

If you think your numbers are low the i definitely recommend emailing them to check it out. I used to get 40 to 50,000 page reads a month until September, then it dropped off to zero (I had one solitary day of 1,000 between September and December, and that was literally it, apart from a few 1s, 2s, etc). So I finally emailed them last week and they sent me a standard reply saying thanks, they've looked into it, but couldn't find anything wrong. But my stats have suddenly come back to life again. My last three days have been 1,500, 4,000 and 3,000 -- after three months of nothing. That can't be a coincidence.


----------



## Laran Mithras

TwistedTales said:


> Two weeks sales: approx 550
> One week KU page reads: approx 13,000
> 
> They're currently levelling out to around 2,500 per day, which is pretty low. If this is as good as it gets then going wide is my best option.


That's sad, considering the work we put into writing. Either we're being cheated by the company or by the program paying so little. I'm sure that $65.00 for KU reads for one week doesn't come close to the profit margin on 275 1-week sales. Even if you're in the KU sweet spot, you're getting probably 1/8th read-income compared to a straight sale.


----------



## Laran Mithras

I couldn't agree more with everything you posted, Twisted.  

Something big is happening and we're feeling it.


----------



## K&#039;Sennia Visitor

TwistedTales said:


> Indeed!


 This is totally off topic, I just wanted to tell you that when I was brainstorming titles for my series, Twisted Tales kept popping up. I knew I'd heard the name somewhere so I probably couldn't use it, but it wasn't until I saw your post here that I realized where I'd seen it before. "giggles muchly"

I don't have anything new or unique to say about KU. I'm just glad I got out last summer and will never, ever go back.


----------



## GoneToWriterSanctum

Queen_of_Shorts said:


> I don't have anything new or unique to say about KU. I'm just glad I got out last summer and will never, ever go back.


Agreed. I was out a year ago, and I've never looked back.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

TwistedTales said:


> My trial is still running. I have around four days of promotions left to go.
> 
> 740 sales after 17 days = average 43 per day globally. It started at 20 a day and is now tending to settle at 30 - 40 a day without any email advertisers.
> 
> 27,000 page reads after 11 days = average of 2,500 per day. Now levelling at around 4,500 per day. So, KU is slowly trending upwards, but still not well enough to justify the exclusivity.
> 
> Interestingly, this book is selling comparatively well in the UK and Australia. Neither are markets I've ever done well in.
> 
> I've also managed to sell some books on iBooks without marketing. Not many yet, but I haven't had any campaigns for the other platforms yet. The books that have been loaded are sitting idle while I wait for this campaign run to finish.


How did the trial go?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

TwistedTales said:


> Thanks for following up because the results were not what I expected.
> 
> *RESULTS*
> After two weeks of solid campaigning the numbers are as follows:
> 
> - Total sales in 2 week period: approx 1,000
> - Total page reads in same 2 week period: approx 44,000
> 
> I haven't compiled the sales breakdown between the three regions, but ranks ended up around:
> 
> - US 2,700
> - U.K. 1,200
> - AUS 800
> 
> Reviews have been positive so far. Sales of other books are slowly climbing.
> 
> Our AMS click to sale landed at around 16%, which was uncommonly high. Even FB ads returned well. We had a lot of follows, likes and positive comments. FB was definitely resulting in good sales numbers particularly in UK and Aus.
> 
> *KU ASSESSMENT*
> I'm very disappointed with the reads. Part of the problem is I can only guess at the downloads based on the rank, but I kept a daily record and thought the ranks matched the sales reasonably well.
> 
> Daily reads are trending towards 5,000 a day, but it's fluctuating a lot.
> 
> I'm not sure what to make of this result. Obviously KU has significantly underperformed compared to sales. There can only be so many causes for that:
> 
> - KU readers don't like the style or genre.
> - There are less KU readers in our genre.
> - KU readers are reading less or are slower to read what they download.
> - Amazon's reporting of page reads is flawed or delayed.
> 
> I doubt it's the book. We're an established author name and always had solid pages reads. Even now, we have books out of KU for over three months getting page reads.
> 
> Unless the page reads pick up over the next few months then I'm not sure I'll put another book in KU.
> 
> *RELATED OBSERVATIONS*
> Interestingly, we've been slowly converting and loading our other books to iBooks and Google. We haven't done any marketing for these books, but we've already started selling on both platforms at full price and even had a positive review. I don't know how they found the books because we've done nothing to promote them, and they've only been up for a few weeks.
> 
> *FUTURE PLANS*
> Next month we've set up a launch for our best selling series. All of the advertisers are wide. It'll be interesting to see how well we can do on iBooks and Google. Amazon will be promoted as a side effect of advertising the books on the other sites. Based on the early sales on the other sites, I'm hoping it will go reasonably well. If that's the case then we might be able to build a reader base on the other sites. Assuming we can do that then it'll be another nail in the KU coffin.
> 
> The next thing we need to decide is whether to move books across to Pronoun or D2D. Another poster pointed out Bookreport works with D2D. I adapt click ads throughout a day so that instant feedback is important.


Thanks for the update. So AMS worked better than expected, but KU underperformed.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Sales have about bottomed out for me, but page reads have definitely picked up. The only promo I'm doing is AMS. Oddly enough, I'm getting page reads for a wide variety of books without AMS or any other promo. Some of them have never sold on their own. 

Unfortunately, page reads don't pay enough to make up for the lack of sales.


----------



## Becca Mills

Katheris said:


> Is there a way to deactivate this feature? I checked the options and did not found anything there.


I don't think so, Katheris. I think the feature is built into the Kindle/Kindle app software.

On another subject (putting on my moderator hat), there were reports, so I've done a little trimming of posts in this thread. Please, let's err on the side of kindness to one another.


----------



## CruiseQueen

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I feel like giving up. I've had 3 sales in the last 30 days and no page reads on 27 of those days . This is not normal for my books. I would do some advertising, but we proved the page reads were not being counted on at least one of my books, so it seems like a waste of time .


Yeah I too am feeling fed up. I've had four 'one-page reads' in the last few days. I've emailed and am going to escalate it


----------



## H.C.

CruiseQueen said:


> Yeah I too am feeling fed up. I've had four 'one-page reads' in the last few days. I've emailed and am going to escalate it


How exactly can you escalate besides removing your titles from Select? They aren't going to admit anything is wrong.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Herefortheride said:


> How exactly can you escalate besides removing your titles from Select? They aren't going to admit anything is wrong.


Sometimes the "drip of water on a stone" method does produce results, I guess. Even if KDP fixed all the problems, I'm not sure I'd want back in unless their 90-day renewal periods were cut to 30 days, or unless they used an immediate-credit-at-time-of-borrow method. I really can't see going through the KU hassle again.


----------



## Thetis

Why are books that previously had page-flip disabled suddenly switching to enabled with absolutely no changes to the file itself? Not even a price change (which wouldn't alter the uploaded file but I mean NOTHING has changed... yes, they were formatted with Vellum and have SVG images).

This happened recently and I don't see any new discussion about it, but there are a lot of comments on this post. Certainly could have missed it. ;-)


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Thetis said:


> Why are books that previously had page-flip disabled suddenly switching to enabled with absolutely no changes to the file itself? Not even a price change (which wouldn't alter the uploaded file but I mean NOTHING has changed... yes, they were formatted with Vellum and have SVG images).
> 
> This happened recently and I don't see any new discussion about it, but there are a lot of comments on this post. Certainly could have missed it. ;-)


I think the obvious answer is that Amazon found a way around that particular problem -- which was inevitable. Besides that, though, even with an SVG image single page Page Flip was available for any book (and had been for a very long time). Multiple page Page Flip was disabled by the SVG file but that was always going to be for a limited time (although has anyone confirmed on their devices that this is no longer a thing?).


----------



## Denise Lewis

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think the obvious answer is that Amazon found a way around that particular problem -- which was inevitable. Besides that, though, even with an SVG image single page Page Flip was available for any book (and had been for a very long time). Multiple page Page Flip was disabled by the SVG file but that was always going to be for a limited time (although has anyone confirmed on their devices that this is no longer a thing?).


I have tested several books, and some have the multiple page flip enabled, and some don't.

Amanda, currently the multiple page flip is "not" enabled on your books (I know, because I've been reading them.  ) But, I tested out some of the books that I know were not formatted in Vellum, or do not have an SVG file attached to them through any other formatting program, and they do still have the page flip enabled.

I've been following this thread since the beginning, and just wanted to throw this in. But, now I'm curious what you use to format with.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Denise Lewis said:


> I have tested several books, and some have the multiple page flip enabled, and some don't.
> 
> Amanda, currently the multiple page flip is "not" enabled on your books (I know, because I've been reading them.  ) But, I tested out some of the books that I know were not formatted in Vellum, or do not have an SVG file attached to them through any other formatting program, and they do still have the page flip enabled.
> 
> I've been following this thread since the beginning, and just wanted to throw this in. But, now I'm curious what you use to format with.


Vellum


----------



## mach 5

My previously non-page flip vellum files are now page flip enabled except for the newest one. I wonder if they are actually having to adjust book by book?


----------



## Thetis

mach 5 said:


> My previously non-page flip vellum files are now page flip enabled except for the newest one. I wonder if they are actually having to adjust book by book?


I think so because all of mine are formatted with Vellum but not all have been enabled yet.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Thetis said:


> I think so because all of mine are formatted with Vellum but not all have been enabled yet.


It doesn't matter if they say "Page Flip enabled" for single page Page Flip. It does for multi page, but it doesn't for single page. Everyone's books are single Page enabled.


----------



## AllyWho

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It doesn't matter if they say "Page Flip enabled" for single page Page Flip. It does for multi page, but it doesn't for single page. Everyone's books are single Page enabled.


This ^

There are *two types of page flip*, formatting with Vellum will only (for now) disable *one* type of page flip. The single page flip which is a navigational tool for readers, is still able to be used on Vellum formatted books. If authors trying to figure out how to disable page flip starts to affect the reader's experience and ability to navigate a book, I'm pretty sure Amazon will make a back end change to over ride it and ensure it still works regardless.


----------



## K&#039;Sennia Visitor

I have an idea about how KU'ers are being paid now. No proof or evidence, just a crazy writerly idea that I felt I must share. 

  So what if the way it works is they start out with a pool of money that they're willing to give KU authors. Then they start with their list of "VIP" authors like Amanda and others who are super prolific and super popular. Amazon doesn't want to lose them, so they split the pool evenly amongst those VIP authors, making sure to give them a good enough amount that they don't split. There is prolly some sort of calculation by how many books they have and possibly by how many borrows they get. But the important thing is to give these authors a satisfactory amount so they don't complain or leave. 

  And from there, whatever is left after giving to the VIP's is split amongst all the other authors. There may even be a third tier, so the ones who don't bring in enough business for amazon to care if they leave or not, get the table scraps after the pool has been split amongst the midlisters, that they sort of care about, but not really. 

  This is why they don't care about Page Flip because they aren't even trying to pay by reads or even borrows. Instead authors get some sort of mathematical calculation where their tier level, the amount of money left in the pot for their tier, plus the number of borrows, possibly, even sales is considered to come up with some arbitrary amount. 

  And sometimes there is less money in the pot for the lower tiers than at other times due to the VIPs needing to be paid more.


----------



## Becca Mills

Queen_of_Shorts said:


> I have an idea about how KU'ers are being paid now. No proof or evidence, just a crazy writerly idea that I felt I must share.
> 
> So what if the way it works is they start out with a pool of money that they're willing to give KU authors. Then they start with their list of "VIP" authors like Amanda and others who are super prolific and super popular. Amazon doesn't want to lose them, so they split the pool evenly amongst those VIP authors, making sure to give them a good enough amount that they don't split. There is prolly some sort of calculation by how many books they have and possibly by how many borrows they get. But the important thing is to give these authors a satisfactory amount so they don't complain or leave.
> 
> And from there, whatever is left after giving to the VIP's is split amongst all the other authors. There may even be a third tier, so the ones who don't bring in enough business for amazon to care if they leave or not, get the table scraps after the pool has been split amongst the midlisters, that they sort of care about, but not really.
> 
> This is why they don't care about Page Flip because they aren't even trying to pay by reads or even borrows. Instead authors get some sort of mathematical calculation where their tier level, the amount of money left in the pot for their tier, plus the number of borrows, possibly, even sales is considered to come up with some arbitrary amount.
> 
> And sometimes there is less money in the pot for the lower tiers than at other times due to the VIPs needing to be paid more.


Well, they sort of do this by giving heavy-hitters all-star bonuses. But if they were actually manipulating page-reads or payouts to benefit the most successful authors, I think we'd know it. If they tried to do it by awarding heavy-hitters more page-reads, folks would see big influxes or reductions of page-reads after the month was over, as Amazon tried to get the ratios right. If they tried to do it by giving people different amounts per page-read, heavy-hitters would notice that they weren't getting .0047/read like everyone else, but .0062 (or whatever). Someone would mention the discrepancy.


----------



## K&#039;Sennia Visitor

Every author has to make the decision that fits them best. Some authors are still making out like kids left alone in a candy store, so it'd be crazy for them to leave, and other authors are like kids left alone in a candy store where everything is locked except for a couple of leftover skittles scattered here and there, so it'd be crazy for them to stay. 

  No matter how it really works, every author has to make the decision that's right for them!

  And Becca makes a lot of sense. I would definitely take my publishing advice from her rather than me. Twas just an idea I had.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Katheris said:


> Interesting. Better to stay out of it, then. I will not renew it, and second book will not be on it. Better to go wide.
> 
> But if I follow your reasoning to the letter, I think they might be doing that to ads too, separating authors by tiers.


Are you talking AMS ads? If so, no. It all depends on how much you bid.


----------



## H.C.

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Are you talking AMS ads? If so, no. It all depends on how much you bid.


This is demonstrably false.

It's "cannon" that they cycle your ad and I think they've even said as much and I've pushed the limit of bids on certain keywords and seen nothing but then lowered it to 2 pennies and seen the impressions FLOOD in.


----------



## Becca Mills

Queen_of_Shorts said:


> And Becca makes a lot of sense. I would definitely take my publishing advice from her rather than me. Twas just an idea I had.


Every idea is worth exploring, IMO!


----------



## Thetis

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It doesn't matter if they say "Page Flip enabled" for single page Page Flip. It does for multi page, but it doesn't for single page. Everyone's books are single Page enabled.


The point is, the "enhanced typesetting" is being changed. That whole page-flip enabled thing showing up on a book's product page is new as far as I know because I don't remember seeing it before and not all of my books have it. There are fifty pages on this thread alone that claim the "enhanced typesetting" refers to the multi-view page-flip that might account for some of the tanking page reads. Every book I had in KU was marked as having enhanced typesetting disabled until this past week, and now it's enabled. On those books that have the new "Page flip enabled" message, enhanced typesetting is also enabled now. On those where enhanced typesetting is still disabled, I don't have that message.

If the multiple posts about the e.t. are incorrect and there's actually no way to tell if a book has multi-view page flip enabled then it's not an update I've seen but threads like these become unwieldy, although I'm sure that would have lead to another fifty pages of arguing about what e.t. actually meant and if it did or did not have any effect on the page flip issue in question.


----------



## DCBourone

If anyone needs possible cue/language to remove book from KU, this worked quickly, might work for you:
shotgunned all available customer service/comment/talk to us/contact us links with the following:

--I would like my book removed from Amazon KU immediately.  I believe .re ( link to this thread ) that Amazon
is in moral, if not legal breach of contract. Amazon language specifically states that page flip was designed
not to register page reads.  I have many readers who have stated they prefer page flip as a reading format.
Amazon's stone-walling on this and related issues ( denying both cause and effect ) is the equivalent of calling me a liar.  Please remove my book (ASIN number what ever that thing is) The first time I got the boiler plate response.
I sent it again.  The second time I got a machine or idiot written "I see this is important to you.  I will make an exception in your case and remove your book we love you and blow you candy kisses full of love blah blah blah"
The book is no longer in KU.  Time lag first email to "no KU" about 8 hours.
GENERAL NOTE: I completely understand and sympathize with those who have had a positive KU experience.  Very hard choice.  On the other hand, I think there is a compelling argument that using KU tacitly approves the stonewalling, and the rip-off, of other writers--Amazon is using their work to promote KU and Amazon, without compensation.  Not cool.  GENERAL MINOR NOTE: I was running about 90 percent one page reads.  That doesn't get people off the first page.  I think that is unlikely, particularly considering the number of readers who have contacted me and said they prefer page flip on big screens.  GENERAL MINOR NOTE: not worth a new post--the book in question has stayed in the 17,000 to 25,000 range even at ONE PAGE READ A DAY FOR WEEKS.  That doesn't fit any ranking metric I have heard of.  It should be around 100,000.  Who the ----- knows.


----------



## Beth_Hammond

I published two shorts and put them in KU. I used my free promo days for each title back to back. I only did a BKnights promo for one of them. I got 100 or so downloads for the one I promo'd with his gig. I got 30 pages of reads (that's one read through of one story), on one day and that was all. One day, one bump showing someone (bless their soul) read my story. Then flatline. Nothing. I was shocked but I'm not a well known so I just thought "well KU doesn't work for me. I guess I'll go wide." So I unchecked the renew button and am waiting for my time to end.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

TwistedTales said:


> So, I'm heading into the last days of this trial. The promotions are finished.
> 
> The KU page reads for this book have been rapidly gaining momentum over the last five to six days. Over the past few days they've been over 8,000 a day. Today they're already well past that and might make it to 10,000 plus. If the growth path continues then they might end up closer to where I would have expected them to go.
> 
> What I don't understand is why it's taken so long. In the past, books kicked off in KU faster than sales. This one has taken three weeks to find its momentum. Is it because the KU readers have long TBR lists? Given we're still getting page reads for books out of KU for months then maybe so.
> 
> Anyway, in the interests of not leaving a skewed result, I thought it's worth mentioning the daily page reads are increasing.


Good to know that page reads are creeping back . I've actually had a few myself this month (just over 1000, which is better than last month at a miserly 484  )


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

TwistedTales said:


> I was surprised to see the page reads shifting upward so quickly. Yesterday ended up at around 11,500 and today is already at 2,500.
> 
> This book is stuck in KU for a few months now so I'll track its performance. All of my other books are still being loaded onto iBooks and Google. We changed the formats and it's taken awhile to do the conversions. We haven't used an aggregator.
> 
> If the upward trend continues then I might consider putting the next full series release in KU as part of a launch pattern. I still haven't seen enough to be convinced staying "all in" with KU is a good idea, particularly with Amazon's recent hostility towards books they believe have been used by scammer bots.


Be interesting to see if the upward trend continues. Hope mine will go back to 5000 per month I was getting back in July before they started falling.


----------



## Philip Gibson

After two months of single digit and zero page reads reported, the past 4 weeks have seen my daily page reads return to what I consider normal.  That is, they are now consistently back to where they were before the massive sustained drop off.

Could Amazon have fixed it across the board?

Philip


----------



## Laran Mithras

Philip Gibson said:


> After two months of single digit and zero page reads reported, the past 4 weeks have seen my daily page reads return to what I consider normal. That is, they are now consistently back to where they were before the massive sustained drop off.
> 
> Could Amazon have fixed it across the board?
> 
> Philip


Either that or you're catching up. With almost no books in KU and most having come out already, my page reads are in the area of up to fairly static. Although the lows are getting lower.


----------



## PhoenixS

************


----------



## PhoenixS

WasAnn said:


> Given that they just pulled the lock-out shenanigans on some from the SFFP, who is as straight arrow as they come and has a 6 year history on KDP, I think it's safe to say they aren't learning not to shoot first and ask questions never.


The auto-destruct sequence built into the algos for detecting scamming seems to be set to "over-sensitive." Auto-flagging of accounts is a good thing. But for heaven's sake, put trained people on to those accounts to vet the scammers from the victims. Is it hard to tell the difference? Unfortunately, in some cases, yes. Because legitimate-seeming authors are PURPOSEFULLY scamming too. And despite evidence submitted to Amazon, many of them -- perhaps because they're big earners? -- are allowed to get away with it. All while some scamming victims are having their accounts closed without warning.

Three stories, put here because I HOPE smart Amazon employees are reading this thread.

*Story the First:*
Watching the Top 100 Free consistently for a while late last year, I saw books jumping overnight into the #1 position, leap-frogging the BookBub'd books with 30-40K downloads. When I say 'overnight," I'm talking about books going free at midnight that are #1 by 8am. Clearly bot-driven promotions. The kicker was when I recognized the names of some of the authors whose books were landing in that #1 spot that way. One author I even worked with a couple of years ago with a box set that landed on USA Today. That was a real gut-blow. These were books by "legitimate" authors who were clearly buying bot-driven promotions; not victims, but savvy professionals who've been around the block resorting to these black-hat tactics.

The books, reported to Amazon and tracked, never appeared to be taken down or the authors reprimanded in any way. Clear violators manipulating the system, yet who escaped unscathed.

*Story the Second:*
There are 2-3 publishers with 200-300 books each who ROUTINELY bot their books into the Top 100 Free. The same books getting repubbed and recycled and pushed into the Top 30 every.single.day. The books clump together in the rankings, meaning they're each getting about the same number of freeloads. I've had 10 books at a time in the Top 100 that I manage, and routinely have 3 or 4 there during our big promo pushes, and I can guarantee the books don't hang together at the same ranks like that when downloaded organically. And that it happens every.single.day? And has been for months on end? And these publishers are still doing this at least 10 MONTHS later from when I started noticing and reporting? Clear evidence of scam behavior, and yet no banhammer. Why the disparity?

*Story the Third:*
More clear gaming of the system reported along with reams of evidence in support from multiple authors and sources about one "legitimate" author/publisher's scammy ways has resulted in the occasional slap on the wrist. But this "legitimate" scammer continues using the exact SAME tactics they get slapped for over and over...and over. Without their account being shut down. And they continue to reap the rewards of their scammy behavior without undue repercussions. 
_____

These violators are purposefully scamming the system. Mounds of evidence has been shoved under KDP's nose, yet the evidence is being ignored and the scammers are being allowed to continue on their merry way. And by letting them get away with purposeful behavior over and over and over for months on end, Amazon is *enabling* the behavior. The common denominator? The above are all successful accounts, generating thousands of dollars per month. Coincidence?

I have no problem with scam-sniffing algos ferreting out the bad guys. I DO have a problem when the banhammer is not applied with equal force and bias across all accounts. I DO have a problem when unsubstantiated fraud is detected and accounts are closed down while evidence-backed fraud is allowed -- and ENABLED -- to flourish. Consistent accountability -- apparently, that's too much to ask for.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## PhoenixS

WasAnn said:


> Please send that to Jeff B.


Pfft. Evidence for that third story has been sent to Jeff (and the subject line informed him of ramifications beyond Amazon's walls), ECR, author reps, and PR personnel multiple, multiple times for each infraction. And yet here we still are with the number of infractions -- and rewards -- mounting every month...


----------



## Seneca42

WasAnn said:


> Please send that to Jeff B.


"Thank you for contacting KDP. We've looked into your concerns and are happy to report there are no irregularities in our system at present. We will continue to closely monitor the system to ensure fraudulent accounts are identified and addressed. Thank you for your valued feedback and hopefully we have addressed your concerns. Lastly, I'm in Brazil and I really don't give a *&^% about any of this, I just do what they tell me. I'm going on my lunch break now, so whatever. If I haven't addressed your concerns to your satisfaction, please let me know and I'll copy and paste this response and send it back to you again. We can do this as many times as you'd like until you stop complaining and realize unless you're a super high-profile author who might harm our reputation in the market, we just don't care. Really, please stop and understand that, WE DO NOT CARE."

If Amazon CS responses were honest


----------



## AllyWho

PhoenixS said:


> *Story the Third:*
> More clear gaming of the system reported along with reams of evidence in support from multiple authors and sources about one "legitimate" author/publisher's scammy ways has resulted in the occasional slap on the wrist. But this "legitimate" scammer continues using the exact SAME tactics they get slapped for over and over...and over. Without their account being shut down. And they continue to reap the rewards of their scammy behavior without undue repercussions.


I know a case that sounds very similar to this. Legitimate authors (including k-boarders) are throwing handfuls of cash at the author/publisher to be promoted because of incredible results that are practically guaranteed. There's a reason results are so amazing and it has a lot to do with secret groups and incentivised members who download featured titles simply to enter a prize draw. Occasionally there is a slap on the wrist by Amazon and the person changes tactics and carries on taking thousands of dollars from authors to push their books to amazing rankings. In other forums a few of us are wondering when those authors using that particular promoter will find their accounts banned and then complain they "did nothing wrong."


----------



## CrazyHorze

I'm nobody, but I think you are reading the tea leaves wrong. Amazon killed all your reads during the promos, because they saw that as you manipulating the KU system. (Were the sales of the book (as opposed to borrows) what you expected during the promo days?) After the promo, your also-bots pushed your reads high up. Maybe we are seeing now how external manipulation, promos, and internal manipulation, also-bots (and maybe AMS) are being treated differently. We need more info to try and find out if this is what's going on.


----------



## CrazyHorze

But it should show a spike when you're doing a promo. I wonder if they just kill everything above the usual level. That would only be smart, because an indie would think the promo wasn't leading to more reads and would complain about the promo's effectiveness and not about Amazon "stealing reads". 
All we can do is guess at the moment, but the writer using AMS and Facebook ads and getting his account temporarily locked is eye-opening. Also the Amazon representative asked for a list of all promo sites he used. So this accounts getting locked because of KU manipulation has to do with promos. That seems clear.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## AllyWho

WasAnn said:


> In reference to the four situations above: Amazon *must* know at least some of the advertisers that are using bots.


Some don't use bots, but have secret groups with hundreds of members who are legitimate KU subscribers. But they are incentivised to download the promoted titles. That gives the promoted author a great rank boost but there will be no sell through or reader engagement, since people don't want to actually read the book, they just want to go in the prize draw for the gift card (which is partly what the author's promotion pays for). That situation is also harder for Amazon to detect, since what is essentially a click farm uses legit KU accounts.


----------



## CrazyHorze

That sounds plausible, because this whole systematically generated reads by bot farm thing that Amazon is telling us sounds like a red herring to me. When I wanted to make use of the free trial version of KU they asked me for a credit card. On how many accounts can you use the same credit card before your accounts get locked by Amazon or your credit card gets frozen by your bank? It could be that bot farmers use stolen credit card info, but that would make it an FBI issue. I haven't heard of anyone being threatened with the police by Amazon yet.


----------



## mach 5

CrazyHorze said:


> ...On how many accounts can you use the same credit card before your accounts get locked by Amazon or your credit card gets frozen by your bank? ...


I think American Express and Visa gift cards work the same as a AE/V credit card would. You buy the card for cash (say $10), you go to the site and register the card with whatever name/address you want, then you use that same name/address for the amazon account. The numbers on the card aren't distinguishable (at least they didn't use to be) from a credit card account number. It's one of the last ways that people who want to do something anonymously (mostly - obviously IP address, etc.) are able to do the thing they don't want attached to their name (e.g. porn site subscription).

Maybe banking or the govt have gotten rid of that ability.


----------



## Gator

mach 5 said:


> The numbers on the card aren't distinguishable (at least they didn't use to be) from a credit card account number.


They're distinguishable. The first four digits of the Visa gift card number identify the bank which issued the gift card, which is a different set of four digits for the same bank's credit card or debit card accounts, if that bank issues more than just gift cards. By reading the bank number, Amazon's algorithm identifies which debit cards are Visa, MasterCard, or American Express gift cards. Amazon's been checking every newly added card since last year, probably thanks to the scammers, 'cuz they didn't used to. (I've been an Amazon customer for 17 years and have added lots of Visa gift cards to my account over the years, usually right after Xmas, as it turns out.)

But it won't stop the scammers. Some banks issue "single use" credit card numbers for their customers to help combat fraud against their customers' accounts. Scammers can request a large number of these "single use" credit card numbers to supply their bot accounts. (Presumably there's a limit to how many requests can be made before the bank and the IRS get suspicious of money laundering or tax evasion activities.) Amazon's algorithms can't tell the difference between a "single use" credit card number and a "this is a real person's" only credit card number, because they're designed to be indistinguishable.


----------



## Laran Mithras

TwistedTales said:


> 1. I believe there has been a significant change in the membership, resulting in a higher percentage of readers for specific genres/niches.
> 2. I think the KU readers have long TBR lists, causing them to be more selective about what they read and when.
> 3. I think more authors not in the "popular" genres/niches are pulling their books out of KU, making it less attractive to a broader base of readers.
> 4. I suspect KU is at risk of becoming only a subset of readers/genres/niches, and if your books aren't it then you might as well not be in KU.


There you go again with a perfectly logical assessment with which I cannot help but agree. 

I'm not sure about the program "cheating" except when it comes to Page Flip. I might be more inclined to believe that the system isn't accruing the reads right away - there's some "lag" in the reporting system. Almost all of my books are out and I received a ton of page reads near the end of each expiration. In fact, I'm still trickling page reads on books that have long been out of the program.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

TwistedTales said:


> You're points are very valid as well. The "page flip" thing is cheating and I suspect there is a lag in page read reporting. Maybe they're quarantining some page reads to be checked or the system needs to decide where to allocate them. I've also got books out of the program for four months still getting page reads. I can't work out what kind of KU reader would leave a book in one of their ten slots for that long. It makes me wonder how many people are downloading the last book I have in and not reading it. It might explain the discrepancy some people see between ranks, sales and page reads.


You are forgetting the Exit Point bug and the single-page reads that come from that.

As to "quarantining pages"--the logic behind that would be a order of magnitude more difficult than logic to actually bit-mark pages actually read and do the process right to begin with. I think you're attributing more sophistication to the Zon algorithms than evidence suggests is there. Saying this after having been in the DP/IT field since 1971.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

TwistedTales said:


> You're points are very valid as well. The "page flip" thing is cheating and I suspect there is a lag in page read reporting. Maybe they're quarantining some page reads to be checked or the system needs to decide where to allocate them. I've also got books out of the program for four months still getting page reads. I can't work out what kind of KU reader would leave a book in one of their ten slots for that long. It makes me wonder how many people are downloading the last book I have in and not reading it. It might explain the discrepancy some people see between ranks, sales and page reads.


Two of my ten slots belong to books I've had on my TBR list much longer than a year.


----------



## readingril

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Two of my ten slots belong to books I've had on my TBR list much longer than a year.


Three of my slots, as you say, have been borrowed from KU for over a year. Two of the three aren't even in KU any more.

The primary reason they haven't been read is due to Overdrive. Without the library borrowing I would've probably already read those books. I say probably because sometimes other books in KU have taken priority. I borrowed one from a favorite author earlier in the week that I finished yesterday.


----------



## Atunah

readingril said:


> Three of my slots, as you say, have been borrowed from KU for over a year. Two of the three aren't even in KU any more.
> 
> The primary reason they haven't been read is due to Overdrive. Without the library borrowing I would've probably already read those books. I say probably because sometimes other books in KU have taken priority. I borrowed one from a favorite author earlier in the week that I finished yesterday.


I have 4 in my slots not in KU anymore. I think they came out early last year. .

After I checked, I have to rephrase. One of the books out of KU has been taken up one of my slots since August 2015. yep, 2015. 3 slots are from 2015, 2 more are from early 2016. I tend to have 2-3 freshly rotating slots open so I always have one or two open. They aren't going anywhere. I'll get to them whenever I am in the mood. I don't think too much about it though. 10 slots are plenty for rotation as I only read one book at a time anyway.


----------



## mach 5

Gator said:


> They're distinguishable. The first four digits of the Visa gift card number identify the bank which issued the gift card, which is a different set of four digits for the same bank's credit card or debit card accounts....Amazon's been checking every newly added card since last year, ....
> 
> But it won't stop the scammers. Some banks issue "single use" credit card numbers...Scammers can request a large number of these "single use" credit card numbers to supply their bot accounts. (Presumably there's a limit to how many requests can be made before the bank and the IRS get suspicious of money laundering or tax evasion activities.) Amazon's algorithms can't tell the difference ...


Thanks for the updated info!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Hmmm, _Bheki and the Magic Light_ has just shot up 1,688,393 spots in ranking. But no sign of a sale or page reads. The last time it shot up so many places was when we did an experiment and a KBoarder read the book and returned to the beginning without closing the book. KDP investigated, but I wasn't credited with the page reads. How do I find out if this time it was just a borrow? 

ETA: 20 page reads suddenly appeared.  Looks like rankings move before page reads appear


----------



## H.C.

I was told the stories like "Boy and Donkey", "Smart Man", etc. were back. 

Did anyone see this?


----------



## Captain Jake

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Hmmm, _Bheki and the Magic Light_ has just shot up 1,688,393 spots in ranking. But no sign of a sale or page reads. The last time it shot up so many places was when we did an experiment and a KBoarder read the book and returned to the beginning without closing the book. KDP investigated, but I wasn't credited with the page reads. How do I find out if this time it was just a borrow?
> 
> ETA: 20 page reads suddenly appeared.  Looks like rankings move before page reads appear


Climbing in rank happens often to me without showing a purchase or pages read. Some readers down load a number of books and may not get round to reading yours for some time. It is the one page reads I do not get. Is it because they do not like your book? Why did they not use the look inside feature before downloading, Just seems a little strange to me.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Captain Jake said:


> Climbing in rank happens often to me without showing a purchase or pages read. Some readers down load a number of books and may not get round to reading yours for some time. It is the one page reads I do not get. Is it because they do not like your book? Why did they not use the look inside feature before downloading, Just seems a little strange to me.


Yes; you get the rank bump when the KU borrow occurs. You get _paid_ (well, credited for money) when pages-read appear.

The occasional one-page read can be attributed to someone just checking that the borrow went okay and who intends to read the title later. HOWEVER, there have been so many of these of late that the consensus on this thread is that it's the Exit Point bug--where someone who's read all of part of a title has returned to the ToC, say, or the cover, before exiting, and the writer is only getting credit for the pages up to the point of exit, regardless of the actual number of pages that were read.


----------



## Used To Be BH

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Yes; you get the rank bump when the KU borrow occurs. You get _paid_ (well, credited for money) when pages-read appear.
> 
> The occasional one-page read can be attributed to someone just checking that the borrow went okay and who intends to read the title later. HOWEVER, there have been so many of these of late that the consensus on this thread is that it's the Exit Point bug--where someone who's read all of part of a title has returned to the ToC, say, or the cover, before exiting, and the writer is only getting credit for the pages up to the point of exit, regardless of the actual number of pages that were read.


The exit-point bug applies if the book is read in one sitting, but does it apply if the book is read in several? From what I can tell from the behavior of books across devices, it looks as if progress doesn't necessarily get recorded if I exit abruptly--only the device I was reading on seems to have it. If, however, I sync before exiting or have been reading for a long time, the progress does get recorded across devices (which means it's on the server). I can see how an exit-point bug would lose whatever progress a reader made during that session, but I can't quite figure out how it could eradicate progress already saved to the server.

As far as the dread 1 page reads are concerned, there's really no way to tell unless the title gets little or no traffic. Someone might indeed be checking to see if the book is there, but the person might not come back and actually read the text for months. There is another thread I ran across yesterday in which some KU subscribers are saying they often jump on the next book in series when they finish one, so one to three of their slots rotate fairly often, but books may sit in the others for months, or in one reported case years. Some also reported they had books in their slots which had been subsequently withdrawn from KU--a possible reason for some people getting pages read a long time after pulling a book out.

We all know there are problems with KU. Do we know for sure exactly how the exit point bug operates?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Bill Hiatt said:


> We all know there are problems with KU. Do we know for sure exactly how the exit point bug operates?


The book we tried was my children's book, so a quick read at only 42 pages. The reader went back to the beginning before closing and no page reads were recorded.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

Bill Hiatt said:


> ... but I can't quite figure out how it could eradicate progress already saved to the server.


I believe I did see one report of that--where the Exit Point bug erased already-logged pages, but I can't recall where. It might have been on this thread, a couple of hundred posts ago.


----------



## H.C.

The two Donkeys and The Beautiful bird are back in "movers and shakers"!


----------



## Gator

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I believe I did see one report of that--where the Exit Point bug erased already-logged pages, but I can't recall where. It might have been on this thread, a couple of hundred posts ago.


It was reported several times, and when I mentioned this in a KBoards thread a few months ago, it was solidly debunked by testers. Just an adjustment to the reported KENP that gets fixed later that day or the next day. I wouldn't worry about it. (Not too much, anyway, but I'd keep daily records, nonetheless. That way I'd know when disappearing KENP didn't come back on the rarely-read eBooks, and it would be time to start worrying again.)


----------



## Gator

Herefortheride said:


> The two Donkeys and The Beautiful bird are back in "movers and shakers"!


Okay. You made me look, but I don't see them. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place.


----------



## H.C.

Gator said:


> Okay. You made me look, but I don't see them. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place.


There's a screenshot in the facebook group 20booksto50k.


----------



## Gator

Herefortheride said:


> There's a screenshot in the facebook group 20booksto50k.


Thanks. So, it's behind locked doors. How inconvenient.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Reading through posts; page reads have no impact on sales rank calculation. A bump in sales rank only occurs at the point of sale, more specifically, the point of borrow, and that's it. After the initial borrow and sales rank boost, a book can go on to have zero page reads or hundreds from that reader, but none if that has any impact on the sales rank.


----------



## Joseph M. Erhardt

It's been more than a week since someone's posted to this thread.  Has anyone done any recent tests against the reported KU page-counting bugs?  Or are all of us who've been hit now out of KU?


----------



## Philip Gibson

For a month now, my page reads reporting has returned to what I consider normal and correct.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Philip Gibson said:


> For a month now, my page reads reporting has returned to what I consider normal and correct.


That could be due to your AMS ad. I know my ads have resulted in an increase in page reads.


----------



## eroticatorium

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> That could be due to your AMS ad. I know my ads have resulted in an increase in page reads.


I've never done an AMS ad and my page reads have also returned to "normal" for about the last 3 weeks or so (though the first couple days in February were a poopfest).


----------



## Rfoster

Every time they change something I lose thousands of page reads, i know when a change occurs because it goes from regular thousands all the way down to 500 which never happenned before and then slowly works itself up to normal. complaining dont work. I went from 30,000 to 10,000 for years to a few thousand. i think its rigged but i keep on writing and hopin because there is no rhyme or reason for it


----------



## Amanda M. Lee

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> ETA: 20 page reads suddenly appeared.  Looks like rankings move before page reads appear


It has always been like that because ranking has nothing to do with page reads. Given the rank of that book, that jump only constitutes one borrow. You get the rank boost when someone borrows the book. You only get paid when someone reads the book -- and sometimes that takes months or may never happen. I deleted two books from my slots last week that I never got around to reading. I simply realized i was probably never going to be in the mood.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I thought my page reads might be returning, but I've had nothing for 8 days  .


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> It's been more than a week since someone's posted to this thread. Has anyone done any recent tests against the reported KU page-counting bugs? Or are all of us who've been hit now out of KU?


I was never sure whether I'd been hit or not - page reads didn't drop drastically, but promos and new releases didn't show the expected surge in pages read. Just a little jink upwards which dropped again soon afterwards. But the last promo and new release both saw a return to pre-KUpocalypse days - big jumps which seem to be lasting well, so far. Now that could all be for other reasons entirely, but it could also be a little bug-fixing behind the scenes.


----------



## Laran Mithras

Being that I'm out and my page reads keep climbing, I don't know what to say.

I'm inclined to read this as not just delayed page reads, but delayed reporting - aside from the Page Flip issue. My experience may be all due to genre (erotica novellas). I'm selling far more directly in the cash aggregate than I ever was in KU. I have an established toe in, though, so might not be for everyone.


----------



## 9 Diamonds

Philip Gibson said:


> For a month now, my page reads reporting has returned to what I consider normal and correct.


Ours have also. It seems like things are steady again -- when we have spikes with borrows, the page reads are showing quickly thereafter.


----------



## H.C.

On Facebook it seems to be "cannon" that they fixed the issue but there are some very draconian safeguards put in place. Which is sad considered "boy and donkey" plus some other spambot books made it onto the movers and shakers list last week.


----------



## mjl1966

Well,  I'm a (very) small time writer on Kindle, but the KNP pages on my latest book are so low, that I've been looking for info on others having the same problem.  After a couple weeks of periodically scratching my head and just having that feeling that something isn't right, I finally found this one.  I'm just glad to know I'm not alone.  I released my third book last month and it got exactly 47 KNP page reads in one day.  Otherwise, the blue line is flat.  Now, it is in a genre I haven't written in before, but my other two books had several hundred page reads on release, along with a handful of sales.  This one got a handful of sales and essentially no KNP page reads.  It's very odd and I can't help believe something is still wrong with the KU system. It's enough that I don't see any point in continuing enrollment in KU, so that's my solution I guess.  Just wanted to add my voice to the chorus.


----------



## AllyWho

mjl1966 said:


> It's very odd and I can't help believe something is still wrong with the KU system...


It's not KU - it's a visibility issue given the ranks of your books.

Do something to increase the visibility of your books if you want higher sales/reads.


----------



## mjl1966

AliceW said:


> It's not KU - it's a visibility issue given the ranks of your books.
> 
> Do something to increase the visibility of your books if you want higher sales/reads.


I'm talking about the release pattern. All three of my books had a nice initial hit in sales up front. The first two also had at least a few days of KU reads that went to around 1000 pages in the first week or so. Then they fell off. Yes, they all dropped off quickly after release. I'm not talking about staying power or long term reads. I'm talking about a *very* different launch pattern between my first two books and my third book. It's not even a money issue, really. Given the per page rate on KU, I'm out five or ten bucks.

The point is this: something changed drastically with KNP reads and it was enough to make me (and many others it would seem) wonder if something is up. Release sales pattern: same. Release ranking spike: same. Release KNP reads: way the hell off. That's all I'm saying. I noticed what looked to me to be a data anomoly when it comes to KNP reads, based on my purely anecdotal experience with my other books. That my books are off the radar - yeah I know. I don't blame KU or anybody else for that. That's a different issue.


----------



## KaraKing

After 5 years of exclusivity, I finally left Select. This page flip fiasco and the complete denial and lack of concern for their authors was the final straw that broke this camel's back.  

I'm very disappointed that they're being so flippant about this and completely ignoring us. I'm glad it happened though because it's only been a few days I'm already seeing my sales on other outlets more than making up for the lost revenue. Perhaps, they did me a favor.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Just had another 1 page read. Page reads still haven't improved much, but I can't tell whether it's poor reporting or lack of interest.  
Any sudden changes/improvements for anyone else?


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Just had another 1 page read. Page reads still haven't improved much, but I can't tell whether it's poor reporting or lack of interest.
> Any sudden changes/improvements for anyone else?


I still occasionally get a one-page read but not nearly as many as I used to get.

I'm running AMS ads now so my page reads have picked up.


----------



## AllyWho

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Just had another 1 page read. Page reads still haven't improved much, but I can't tell whether it's poor reporting or lack of interest.


I only checked out a couple of your titles, but the ones I looked at are ranked in the millions. There's nothing sinister going on, it's simply a lack of interest/visibility due to rank. Some authors are quick to point to Amazon for "suppressing" pages read, when its actually an issue with their product/rank. Fix that first, if you want to see pages read rise.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

AliceW said:


> I only checked out a couple of your titles, but the ones I looked at are ranked in the millions. There's nothing sinister going on, it's simply a lack of interest/visibility due to rank. Some authors are quick to point to Amazon for "suppressing" pages read, when its actually an issue with their product/rank. Fix that first, if you want to see pages read rise.


A while back I did do a test with an Amazon rep that proved my page reads weren't being counted properly. I haven't got money to spare to advertise if it's going to be wasted. I'm waiting to see if everyone else has seen their page reads settle down to their previous numbers before doing any promotions.
(The AMS ads are beyond my maths skills  .)


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## 39416

Maybe we should all start putting PLEASE EXIT PAGE FLIP BEFORE CLOSING THIS BOOK at the end of our novels.


----------



## 9 Diamonds

I'm not seeing any problems at all now. There have been steady borrows on nearly all our titles over the past few months ... last month, six titles registered one page read each, but then within the space of days each of the books were fully read. I believe these borrowers opened the books when they borrowed them to make sure the book had downloaded properly, then they started reading them through. We're not seeing any discrepancies with borrows and pages read anymore.


----------



## David VanDyke

loraininflorida said:


> Maybe we should all start putting PLEASE EXIT PAGE FLIP BEFORE CLOSING THIS BOOK at the end of our novels.


I did that. KDP blocked my re-upload and said it "made for a poor user experience."


----------



## 39416

You. Are. Kidding. Me. _Wow._ Guess they don't want readers turning off Page Flip.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Because user experience is far more important than us getting paid as Amazon is contractually obligated to do per page read under terms of the Select agreement. _Awesome!_

Isn't it funny how they're able to catch that so quickly in their reviews, but they can't find all of the bogus books stitched together by computer, or plagiarism, or miscategorization, or books being pushed into the top 100 by click farms, or any of the things that really do contribute to a poor user experience?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Atlantisatheart said:


> Yes, Jan - someone did another set of tests on an author facebook site the other day and found that the problem still exists if the reader reads all the way through and stays in page flip when they close the book. They found that if there was a link in the back of the book (to a website or next book) that dropped the reader out of page flip before they closed the book then all pages read would be counted.
> 
> You need a link and to pray that the reader clicks it - exits page flip in some other way before closing - or reads the book in fits and starts with only a few pages left at the end that doesn't register in order to be paid the full amount of pages.


Thanks for this, and all the other replies. I was getting page reads previously with no advertising, but they are now about 10- 20% of what they were. It's disheartening to think that readers could still be reading pages but they are not being counted.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

David VanDyke said:


> I did that. KDP blocked my re-upload and said it "made for a poor user experience."


It's a pity we can't put a link to the Amazon review page.


----------



## Seneca42

KelliWolfe said:


> Because user experience is far more important than us getting paid as Amazon is contractually obligated to do per page read under terms of the Select agreement. _Awesome!_
> 
> Isn't it funny how they're able to catch that so quickly in their reviews, but they can't find all of the bogus books stitched together by computer, or plagiarism, or miscategorization, or books being pushed into the top 100 by click farms, or any of the things that really do contribute to a poor user experience?


I won't name the book, but there's been a book (actually the whole series) that's been top #30 in scifi paid, top #400 in all paid, for months now. In all that time ZERO extra reviews. So this book/series is getting hundreds of downloads / buys a day for months and no reviews resulting from it?

Pure botting if you ask me.


----------



## unkownwriter

Sales rank has nothing to do with these odd one page and only one page reads on KU books. I have one now, been like that for a week. No other action on the book, it's like it got locked down. 

There are still issues, but we'll never get a proper answer from Amazon. Easier to put down a writer with questions than wonder yourself, I guess. Who knows, ask too many questions, and you may be next on the Amazon Ride o' Doom!

For myself, my page reads and sales have pretty much gone back to normal. I still have most of my stuff out of KU, and I'm getting sales rather than the odd 30 or 40 pages that used to be reported. So, making more money. Not rolling in it, but it's odd how my stuff aged out of KU and everything turned around. But, my sales rank is down in the muck, so I must not know anything, right?


----------



## unkownwriter

Atlantisatheart said:


> Yes, Jan - someone did another set of tests on an author facebook site the other day and found that the problem still exists if the reader reads all the way through and stays in page flip when they close the book. They found that if there was a link in the back of the book (to a website or next book) that dropped the reader out of page flip before they closed the book then all pages read would be counted.
> 
> You need a link and to pray that the reader clicks it - exits page flip in some other way before closing - or reads the book in fits and starts with only a few pages left at the end that doesn't register in order to be paid the full amount of pages.


This is interesting. I may start putting my email signup link right after the book finishes, with a call to action (I've been forgetting to put that in, so I need to rework my upload template!). Since we can't ask for readers to turn of Page Flip, we have to do something.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Maybe we could put links to our Amazon author page. Amazon surely wouldn't object to that.


----------



## Becca Mills

Seneca42 said:


> I won't name the book, but there's been a book (actually the whole series) that's been top #30 in scifi paid, top #400 in all paid, for months now. In all that time ZERO extra reviews. So this book/series is getting hundreds of downloads / buys a day for months and no reviews resulting from it?
> 
> Pure botting if you ask me.


Sounds like a waste of money to me. If the purchased visibility were leading to real buys/reads, the book(s) would be getting reviews. Visibility isn't everything, eh?


----------



## David VanDyke

Becca Mills said:


> Sounds like a waste of money to me. If the purchased visibility were leading to real buys/reads, the book(s) would be getting reviews. Visibility isn't everything, eh?


Not a waste of money if it's getting clickbot page reads. We really don't know.


----------



## Seneca42

Becca Mills said:


> Sounds like a waste of money to me. If the purchased visibility were leading to real buys/reads, the book(s) would be getting reviews. Visibility isn't everything, eh?


Depends on the money being spent. I have no idea how botting works or how much it costs.

But yes, i agree with you that it's a waste of time. On the other hand, I image there are plenty of authors who reach the end of their rope and figure there's nothing left to lose.

What's really odd is that when you get up in the ranks, you'd think with increased visibility (especially in KU) you'd at least seal your fate one way or another (lots of good or bad reviews). But to be top #400 in all and have zero added reviews over 2-3 months. It's baffling.

Makes you wonder just how much visibility actually plays into things.


----------



## Laran Mithras

Amazon needs to try something different with the whole visibility thing. They are basically forcing authors to either: put out a book a month minimum to maintain search visibility; or putting out collections to boost their backlist.

With the deluge of books being put out by brand new authors (over 1500 per day?), I read that if your book isn't ranked 200,000 or better, it's dropped out of Amazon searches entirely. I don't know if that's true.

Since most new authors seem to jump into KU, better authors are getting pushed aside. My editor had a KU sub and canceled it a few months ago; the offered books were so bad that the cost wasn't worth the time to search and read.

I've been out of KU for some months now (thankfully), and have seen my sales compensate. My paperback sales jumped from 10 per month to 40+. I don't know if KU is still having problems, but I'm rather glad I dumped the program and went wide. Wide was a bit of a slow start, it has been accelerating every month. Between paperback increases and wide, my former $300+ per month in page reads has just about been replaced.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Laran Mithras said:


> Amazon needs to try something different with the whole visibility thing. They are basically forcing authors to either: put out a book a month minimum to maintain search visibility; or putting out collections to boost their backlist.


From Amazon's perspective, do they really, though? They're trying to sell books, not help authors. And as you note, there are ways that authors can maintain visibility, to which list you can add advertising. Or getting picked up by an Amazon imprint. There are plenty of authors who always have books in the top 10,000, so I can't imagine Amazon thinks there is a problem.

As a side note - here's an anecdote to counter the idea you have to release a book a month. My last book was released on 2/9, a kindle worlds book in David Wood's kindle world. David has very solid sales and a receptive initial audience, but he's hardly a household name. The kindle world books are not in KU. It's priced at $1.99 (I have no control over this) which is an odd sort of price not likely to drive readers on price like a 99 cent book. After an initial push the first day, the book had no promotion. It stayed between 5000 and 12000 for three weeks or so, then it stayed in the top 25,000 for another five weeks. This is only a single anecdote and I know a lot of folks experience the 30 day cliff. But it does seem quite possible that with 4 books a year plus collections and shorts, an author could do well.



Laran Mithras said:


> With the deluge of books being put out by brand new authors (over 1500 per day?), I read that if your book isn't ranked 200,000 or better, it's dropped out of Amazon searches entirely. I don't know if that's true.


This is an urban legend. Books come up just fine no matter what their rank. Lower rank does have a correlation with appearing further down the search results pages, but it's not a perfect correlation. There's no magical level where books stop appearing in searches. I have a shorts collection ranked a million and it comes right up. It's not near the top unless I put most of the words in the title in my search, but thst's to be expected.



Laran Mithras said:


> Since most new authors seem to jump into KU, better authors are getting pushed aside. My editor had a KU sub and canceled it a few months ago; the offered books were so bad that the cost wasn't worth the time to search and read.


Data is not the plural of anecdote. Honestly if there is a single mistake I see repeated in posts many times a day by kboards authors, it's assuming that the way they (or people they know) consume and judge books is the way most people do. KU almost certainly has several million subscribers and there are many, many books by excellent authors in KU. The Amazon Imprint books alone provide many "vetted" authors in many genres. And what do you mean, "better authors" pushed aside? Who decides who's a better author?



Laran Mithras said:


> I've been out of KU for some months now (thankfully), and have seen my sales compensate. My paperback sales jumped from 10 per month to 40+. I don't know if KU is still having problems, but I'm rather glad I dumped the program and went wide. Wide was a bit of a slow start, it has been accelerating every month. Between paperback increases and wide, my former $300+ per month in page reads has just about been replaced.


I think this is great and it must be a relief to see things picking up. I am wide with all but two books. As authors, we have to make the best decisions we can for our own books and approach. Like many, I don't care for the exclusivity requirement, and I can't give away the first book in my series as a reader magnet if it's in KU. And the even bigger problem is one which you hint at in your first comment - if you're not in KU, it's harder to get visibility because you don't have borrows helping your rank. Those concerns, however, don't mean that KU has bad books or is not doing well.


----------



## Laran Mithras

edwardgtalbot said:


> From Amazon's perspective, do they really, though? They're trying to sell books, not help authors. And as you note, there are ways that authors can maintain visibility, to which list you can add advertising. Or getting picked up by an Amazon imprint. There are plenty of authors who always have books in the top 10,000, so I can't imagine Amazon thinks there is a problem.


I most certainly believe Amazon thinks things are great.



edwardgtalbot said:


> And what do you mean, "better authors" pushed aside? Who decides who's a better author?


Readers decide what they like. As an author and a sometimes editor, when I see many of the "hottest" offerings in KU I often wonder which blind monkey edited it? Blurb errors? Improperly formatted Kindle? Subjectively, I decide if an author is "good" if they take the care to offer their best presentation to the reader. If they can't even be bothered to correct simple errors, they are telling me they don't care about the reader.

However, one cannot argue with a top seller, even if it contains horribly mangled grammar and errors in speech identification.



edwardgtalbot said:


> And the even bigger problem is one which you hint at in your first comment - if you're not in KU, it's harder to get visibility because you don't have borrows helping your rank. Those concerns, however, don't mean that KU has bad books or is not doing well.


I think KU is doing great - for Amazon. And certainly for some authors who do write good books. But there is a flood of new books released every day by new authors - and most pouring into KU. The reader, of course, can decide if it is worth reading something unpolished. In going through the top 100 lists and reading blurbs and peek insides for research, I often find myself cringing. But there it is, they are in the top 100 and not me. I don't complain about my standing, I keep plugging away and my readership grows.

My editor didn't think $9.99 was worth it for the "garbage" she was reading (she used a four-letter word). For her part, I believe she was searching specific genres and not just reading a "bestseller."

As for myself, I'd love to be back in KU - not because of missed sales or income, but just being able to offer some or all of my books in something popular. However, as you said, the exclusivity bothers me and so do the problems I have read about botters inflating legitimate books, reporting them, and getting accounts banned. Those kind of things make me extremely shy of getting back in.

Hopefully those things get addressed.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Laran Mithras said:


> As for myself, I'd love to be back in KU - not because of missed sales or income, but just being able to offer some or all of my books in something popular. However, as you said, the exclusivity bothers me and so do the problems I have read about botters inflating legitimate books, reporting them, and getting accounts banned. Those kind of things make me extremely shy of getting back in.


I do hope they fix these things, and it seems like it's something they could do which wouldn't be counter to their other goals. My opinion is that KU would not be successful without Amazon Imprints. The existence of those imprint books is why they were able to ignore the page read problem and why they have been able to ignore decent selling authors leaving in some genres. The one thing we can be sure of is that the details of KU will continue to change. All we can do is monitor them and keep evaluating what makes sense for us.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

The loss of page reads has now come up on the KindleUsersForum in the UK.


----------



## Guest

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> The loss of page reads has now come up on the KindleUsersForum in the UK.


This is a serious problem and not merely a page-flip problem and needs to be fixed by Amazon. If authors are being shorted page reads in KU because of the way Amazon counts page reads, that's tantamount to fraud. Of course it's not wilful but the effect is the same--a loss of money for the authors. Amazon should either fix it or junk the page read system. To continue with this travesty is both unfair and an insult to all authors.


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## jaehaerys

icarusxx said:


> This is a serious problem and not merely a page-flip problem and needs to be fixed by Amazon. If authors are being shorted page reads in KU because of the way Amazon counts page reads, that's tantamount to fraud. Of course it's not wilful but the effect is the same--a loss of money for the authors. Amazon should either fix it or junk the page read system. To continue with this travesty is both unfair and an insult to all authors.


Considering all the scams and schemes so many indie authors seem to be pulling all over the Amazon platform, Amazon's probably seeing the page-flip thing and calling it even. This whole industry is a mess.


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## Guest

dn8791 said:


> Considering all the scams and schemes so many indie authors seem to be pulling all over the Amazon platform, Amazon's probably seeing the page-flip thing and calling it even. This whole industry is a mess.


But this is not a page-flip problem. This is reading to the end of the book (without page-flip) and then going back to the table of contents at the beginning of the book and exiting from there--in which case the author does not get credit for the whole book pages read. KU is obviously recording only the last page before exit, even if the whole book has been read.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

I am seriously disappointed that, after all this time, the Page-Flip and Exit Point problems appear not to have been addressed.  I keep checking this forum, hoping that someone has posted some happy news.

Alas, not.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> I am seriously disappointed that, after all this time, the Page-Flip and Exit Point problems appear not to have been addressed. I keep checking this forum, hoping that someone has posted some happy news.
> 
> Alas, not.


^exactly this^


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## jaehaerys

icarusxx said:


> But this is not a page-flip problem. This is reading to the end of the book (without page-flip) and then going back to the table of contents at the beginning of the book and exiting from there--in which case the author does not get credit for the whole book pages read. KU is obviously recording only the last page before exit, even if the whole book has been read.


Whatever the actual problem is, the point remains, this industry is a mess.


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## Laran Mithras

Amazon is pulling in floods of new authors and books into KU. I think fixing "minor" problems (compared to those that scam them of $$$) has been pushed far back to the back-burner.

Money first, bug-fixes later. Unfortunately.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Jane_Dough said:


> I'm not sure how to tell if your pages read are turning up okay, but I just went through about six months' worth of sales data and noticed CA has only 1 read showing up. This has happened twice so far. Is that normal, something I should be contacting the zon about?


The one page reads could be due to readers just checking to see if the book has downloaded ok, or it could be due to a reader returning to the beginning of the book before exiting. Sometimes a one page read will increase later - and sometimes not. 
Going on what has happened previously, I don't think contacting Amazon will do much good, but no harm in trying .


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## Guest

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> The one page reads could be due to readers just checking to see if the book has downloaded ok, or it could be due to a reader returning to the beginning of the book before exiting. Sometimes a one page read will increase later - and sometimes not.
> Going on what has happened previously, I don't think contacting Amazon will do much good, but no harm in trying .


There are a number of popular authors with clout in KU (e.g. Hugh Howie). Also some trad pubs. Does anyone know if someone with clout has commented or contacted AZ about the Exit Point problem?


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

icarusxx said:


> There are a number of popular authors with clout in KU (e.g. Hugh Howie). Also some trad pubs. Does anyone know if someone with clout has commented or contacted AZ about the Exit Point problem?


If you can manage to read through this lengthy thread you will find that NUMEROUS people have reported it NUMEROUS times with screen shots proof. I had a telephone conversation with a rep and an experiment proved the exit point problem, but unfortunately nothing came of it


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## IreneP

icarusxx said:


> But this is not a page-flip problem. This is reading to the end of the book (without page-flip) and then going back to the table of contents at the beginning of the book and exiting from there--in which case the author does not get credit for the whole book pages read. KU is obviously recording only the last page before exit, even if the whole book has been read.


OMG - this is a problem? I do this all the time.

Well, I'm not a subscriber at the moment. But I sort of do this by default because if I open the book again I don't want to be at the end.


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## Gertie Kindle

IreneP said:


> OMG - this is a problem? I do this all the time.
> 
> Well, I'm not a subscriber at the moment. But I sort of do this by default because if I open the book again I don't want to be at the end.


That's why I cancelled my KU subscription. The way I read could very well cost authors page reads. I might skip to the last couple of chapters, read the end (okay, so I sometimes can't stand the suspense), then go back to my bookmark and read up to the last couple of chapters. That could take a huge chunk out of an author's total pages read.


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## DanaFraser

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> That's why I cancelled my KU subscription. The way I read could very well cost authors page reads. I might skip to the last couple of chapters, read the end (okay, so I sometimes can't stand the suspense), then go back to my bookmark and read up to the last couple of chapters. That could take a huge chunk out of an author's total pages read.


When I was younger and read a ton more, I'd often start in the middle (yeah, skipped the first after maybe the first chapter of figuring out who was who) and read to the end (if it kept me intrigued) then, if I really liked it, go back and read the first half that I had skipped. This was my standard reading protocol for everything other than mysteries. It also made it harder to guess the ending, so I'd be surprised when I got there instead of seeing all the road signs in the first half. Lucky for the KU authors whose books I borrow, I now read front to back.


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## Guest

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> If you can manage to read through this lengthy thread you will find that NUMEROUS people have reported it NUMEROUS times with screen shots proof. I had a telephone conversation with a rep and an experiment proved the exit point problem, but unfortunately nothing came of it


With all due respect, I don't mean "numerous" people. I mean people with clout, influence, power.


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## 39416

As I understand it, the closest Amazon has ever gotten to officially admitting there is a problem is Amazon's statement that Page Flip doesn't have a "material" effect upon authors --but no worries, they'll continue to monitor just in case.

Authors thereupon left KU.

So, Amazon created the Storyteller Contest whose condition of entry is that an author enter a new book into KU.


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## Guest

loraininflorida said:


> As I understand it, the closest Amazon has ever gotten to officially admitting there is a problem is Amazon's statement that Page Flip doesn't have a "material" effect upon authors --but no worries, they'll continue to monitor just in case.
> 
> Authors thereupon left KU.
> 
> So, Amazon created the Storyteller Contest whose condition of entry is that an author enter a new book into KU.


Maybe it's too easy to assume insidious intent. Maybe it's a matter of them not yet knowing how to fix it. They may have to junk the present KU page read system. But replace it with what? KU is very profitable for many authors. I really don't think AZ wants tp cheat anyone. KU is only a tiny part of their revenue. We all say "fix it" but maybe fixing it is not that easy. A little pressure from some people with influence might help.


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## Seneca42

icarusxx said:


> Maybe it's too easy to assume insidious intent. Maybe it's a matter of them not yet knowing how to fix it. They may have to junk the present KU page read system. But replace it with what? KU is very profitable for many authors. I really don't think AZ wants tp cheat anyone. KU is only a tiny part of their revenue. We all say "fix it" but maybe fixing it is not that easy. A little pressure from some people with influence might help.


Well, if we look at this through the lens of the "law" ... Amazon is letting people read your work without paying you. Technically they are committing a crime, just not one anyone can officially prove. Now, if they said "We're occassionally having issues that fail to record page reads" then people could choose not to enroll. But their stance has always been that there are no problems, which is a fraudulent statement.

Now, if the TOS says "Issues with our system may result in the occasional sale of your product without you being compensated..." and you agree to that, then that's fine.

Everything zon does in insidious from the perspective that they:

1) Are breaking the law (ie. selling your work without paying you - but rest assured they make sure they always get paid)
2) they know this is happening (so it's being done with absolute forethought)
3) Have made no efforts to correct it or acknowledge it is happening (ie. warn authors of their deficiencies) 
4) And we can throw onto this the fact that they pay scammers out your royalty pot (essentially passing on their losses to you).

They can do this though because they are a giant multinational company who does not fear the law and who knows that authors have no way of proving anything because only zon has the data. Even if you did amass said proof, good luck suing them.

I'm not saying Amazon is evil, they are simply like any other big company. Their focus is singular, to make money for themselves.

I don't think they are out to rip authors off, but they sure don't care about what to them is pennies around the margin. It may be a HUGE deal for you that you lose some reads, but to them it's utterly irrelevant. So long as their balance sheet is in the black, and they aren't facing any lawsuits or bad publicity, then there's not only no fire, there's not even smoke.


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## David VanDyke

Actually, legally, the thing is, they can define a "page read" any way they want to. That's in the contract you sign. So, before you proved they committed fraud, you'd have to prove your (plain) meaning of "page read" is better than theirs.

And remember, innocent until proven guilty. You may know in your gut they're guilty, but before the law, they're innocent.


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## 39416

The contract says it will pay by pages read; a Court, unless challenged by the Plaintiff, would define page reads according to Amazon's KENPC v2.0.


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## Ava Glass

Amazon is advertising job openings for KDP public relations. The senior position is looking for someone with experience with "issue management" and "crisis communications." They probably want to get ahead of situations like this one.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/517609

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/518100


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## 39416

It's easy enough to prove the Page Flip thing. Amazon is one class action away from A Really Big Problem.


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## AllyWho

loraininflorida said:


> It's easy enough to prove the Page Flip thing. Amazon is one class action away from A Really Big Problem.


You're assuming it is a "Really Big Problem". I'm seeing a lot of people conflating 2 seperate issues. Sometimes 1-page reads happen because a reader borrows the book, looks at the first page and realises it isn't something they want to read. When you have a book with a 6 or 7 digit rank then that is going to be way more obvious because you're only seeing one borrow at a time. Certainly pursue legal action if you can prove that Amazon is short changing you on pages read, but make sure its not as simple as lack of visibility or a product issue first. I would expect a book ranked in the millions to have single digit to zero pages read and I'm not sure how it is Amazon's fault if a title lacks visibility (or has other issues) and simply isn't being borrowed/read?


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## 39416

An independent lab slaps together some 700 page "book", puts it in KU, "reads" through all its pages in Page Flip, checks the graph which shows only one page read. That's pretty much all the testimony/proof you'd need to convince a Court this is happening to everyone. The sticky wicket would be putting a price tag on it --but that's what courts do. Whether it's a dead baby or page reads not paid, a court has to figure out how much $$ the Defendant has to pay. The day some KU author walks into a large law firm with experience doing class action against large corporations (think the tobacco cases) is the day Amazon's Really Big Problem begins.


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## Seneca42

David VanDyke said:


> Actually, legally, the thing is, they can define a "page read" any way they want to. That's in the contract you sign. So, before you proved they committed fraud, you'd have to prove your (plain) meaning of "page read" is better than theirs.
> 
> And remember, innocent until proven guilty. You may know in your gut they're guilty, but before the law, they're innocent.


I think it would be a tough sell to the judge to argue that the entire book was just 1 KENP read hehe.

But regardless, it's impossible to prove. The only way zon will ever get their hand slapped for this stuff would be if someone on the inside blew the whistle. And to be honest, I doubt even that would result in anything because I don't think they are actively trying to make this happen. It's more a case of negligence where they'd simply argue they didn't have the resources to try and fix the problem beyond whatever they've already tried.

I'll differ with you on the "innocent until proven guilty" part and raise you "probable cause" 

If we were cops there's enough probable cause for us to get a warrant and inspect the data.


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## Seneca42

Ava Glass said:


> Amazon is advertising job openings for KDP public relations. The senior position is looking for someone with experience with "issue management" and "crisis communications." They probably want to get ahead of situations like this one.
> 
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/517609
> 
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/518100


crisis management, I'd bet my house, is tied more to the scamming issues. The scammers are winning, no question about it. I personally believe rank bumping from bot borrows is very prevalent on amazon (not rampant, but prevalent). And if they are doing that, there's probably a lot more going on than we realize.

My money says at some point we're going to see another story in the media about some scammer who made $5M off KU. The last guy made $3M before getting caught. And actually, i don't even think anything happened to him because technically he wasn't doing anything illegal.

But when the next one goes public, everyone in KU is going to lose their *&^* as they finally realize the service has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

My personal dream is amazon is quickly preparing a nuclear attack on everyone gaming their system and drops a nuclear hammer on a ton of folks. I'm not a petty person and generally don't like to see people suffer, but they need to clear their store of a lot of bad actors.


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## 39416

You don't have to "prove" it, it's a civil matter, not criminal. (Amazon would not be "guilty" they'd be "liable.") You only have to convince the Court there is a 51% probability that Page Flip is doing this. One demo would be enough. A lab would no doubt do a _few_ more. And personally I believe Amazon knows all about this. Forcing them to turn over their records on it (which you can do in a lawsuit, it's called "Discovery") would be a delight.


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## jaehaerys

Seneca42 said:


> crisis management, I'd bet my house, is tied more to the scamming issues. The scammers are winning, no question about it. I personally believe rank bumping from bot borrows is very prevalent on amazon (not rampant, but prevalent). And if they are doing that, there's probably a lot more going on than we realize.
> 
> My money says at some point we're going to see another story in the media about some scammer who made $5M off KU. The last guy made $3M before getting caught. And actually, i don't even think anything happened to him because technically he wasn't doing anything illegal.
> 
> But when the next one goes public, everyone in KU is going to lose their *&^* as they finally realize the service has more holes in it than swiss cheese.
> 
> My personal dream is amazon is quickly preparing a nuclear attack on everyone gaming their system and drops a nuclear hammer on a ton of folks. I'm not a petty person and generally don't like to see people suffer, but they need to clear their store of a lot of bad actors.


Here's hoping your personal dream becomes a reality. I guess I shouldn't hold my breath.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

icarusxx said:


> With all due respect, I don't mean "numerous" people. I mean people with clout, influence, power.


Sorry, I misunderstood.

I doubt if the people with clout, influence and power are having this problem, but it would be interesting if there was some way of finding out.


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## DanaFraser

Amazon is smart enough to know that they cannot measure the page flip issue at present. They know that they are only measuring last page synced. If (a) you know that you cannot measure number of pages actually read, and (b) are saying the number of unmeasured pages read is not material or significant, then (c) you are knowingly lying to the public unless you are significantly and materially mentally deficient with no concept of logic.

Again, Amazon is not comprised of mentally deficient people. People who develop algorithms and the codes to support them are not unfamiliar with logic. Instead of fruit loops, they have logic loops for breakfast, m'kay. They are some of the sharpest knives in the drawer--unfortunately in more way than one. Consequently, it looks like intentional misrepresentation.

And this is only regarding Page Flip -- there are other ways (and Amazon has been made aware of them) that pages go uncounted. Readers finish and go back to the TOC (common habit, apparently) or to re-read an earlier scene, or to the About page to click on the author's web link, and so on.

Perhaps if the reading speed (you know 3 minutes remaining in chapter statistics etc) still works in page flip (probably not), they can resolve the issue by tapping into reading speed statistics to know how many pages were actually read. But as it presently stands, it appears to me that they prefer intentional, knowing misrepresentation.

And, yes, my books are in KU for most of my pen names. Use the most recent edition of vellum to disable page flip (for the time being, amazon is undoubtedly looking at how to counteract that) and make your author address a non-working link, and put the about and copyright at the end, not beginning. This sucks from a list building perspective, but a million readers on your list don't mean anything if you aren't getting page reads? (Okay, they mean a little to a lot, but you get my point. This isn't about number of people you are paying mailchimp, mailerlite, etc., to send new release notices to, it's what people are paying you for all your work.)

As for influential authors speaking out -- why would they? Even if they feel they are losing 20% etc of income--they have the same stick over their heads as we do. Read "The Everything Store" or at least some of the articles about the book. Do you want a little piece of code attached to your books that is an anchor or a balloon?


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## Christine Kersey

DanaFraser said:


> Use the most recent edition of vellum to disable page flip (for the time being, amazon is undoubtedly looking at how to counteract that)


Check your books and see if page flip is still disabled. It looks as if Amazon has found a workaround for Vellum's page flip fix.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Seneca42 said:


> I think it would be a tough sell to the judge to argue that the entire book was just 1 KENP read hehe.
> 
> But regardless, it's impossible to prove. The only way zon will ever get their hand slapped for this stuff would be if someone on the inside blew the whistle. And to be honest, I doubt even that would result in anything because I don't think they are actively trying to make this happen. It's more a case of negligence where they'd simply argue they didn't have the resources to try and fix the problem beyond whatever they've already tried.
> 
> I'll differ with you on the "innocent until proven guilty" part and raise you "probable cause"
> 
> If we were cops there's enough probable cause for us to get a warrant and inspect the data.


For a civil suit, I'll go with "preponderance of the evidence."


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Sorry, I misunderstood.
> 
> I doubt if the people with clout, influence and power are having this problem, but it would be interesting if there was some way of finding out.


No kidding. I'll bet all the big-name authors have their own deals with KDP (or their publishing houses do), and that they're paid by the borrow, not by the pages read.


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## DanaFraser

Christine Kersey said:


> Check your books and see if page flip is still disabled. It looks as if Amazon has found a workaround for Vellum's page flip fix.


The books I uploaded late April through early May still have Page Flip disabled. That's using 1.4.2. The ones I uploaded using 1.4.1 earlier in the year and last year have Page Flip enabled.

ETA - I will say I think they have to mess with it in batches or book by book because on the 1.4.1, page flip wasn't re-enabled all at once on my books. Some had it on Week 1, but most didn't, then half had it by end of Week 2, etc. So if Amazon found a workaround on 1.4.2, it may be that my books are just further down the change queue


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## Christine Kersey

DanaFraser - I used 1.4.2 as well, and page flip being enabled again just came to my attention yesterday, so it is probably coming for everyone, unfortunately.


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## David VanDyke

loraininflorida said:


> The contract says it will pay by pages read; a Court, unless challenged by the Plaintiff, would define page reads according to Amazon's KENPC v2.0.


No, that only defines the page count. Not read. (Just playing Devil's Advocate here). Proof of pages read would have to come from individuals who testified they actually read the pages rather than merely flipped through or past them.

You see where this could get very, very sticky in court?

Note, I agree with your premise. I'm just pointing out that proving it would be a daunting endeavor of building up a case from scratch, where the defense (Amazon), as the presumed-innocent party, could fight a rearguard action for years, if not forever, on this issue.


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## DanaFraser

Christine Kersey said:


> DanaFraser - I used 1.4.2 as well, and page flip being enabled again just came to my attention yesterday, so it is probably coming for everyone, unfortunately.


Crud - I just made a more comprehensive check of my titles and found four so far that have been converted back to having page flip enabled.

Tin hat? Not a bug, but a feature, either giving amazon more profit or reducing the loss of subsidizing KU.


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## DanaFraser

I'm going to name each chapter: chapter 1 - KU Borrowers, please do not read in page flip

or have my scene breaks all be SVGs of "Page Flip Steals Money from Kindle Unlimited Authors"


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## Gertie Kindle

DanaFraser said:


> I'm going to name each chapter: chapter 1 - KU Borrowers, please do not read in page flip
> 
> or have my scene breaks all be SVGs of "Page Flip Steals Money from Kindle Unlimited Authors"


Amazon will stop you on that. They've already stopped other.


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## DanaFraser

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Amazon will stop you on that. They've already stopped other.


I was saying it as a joke. I'm not surprised others have tried it though.


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## anotherpage

Christine Kersey said:


> Check your books and see if page flip is still disabled. It looks as if Amazon has found a workaround for Vellum's page flip fix.


How do you check?


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## 39416

Convincing a court how to figure out how many page reads Amazon has not paid KU authors for would not be accomplished by author testimony. It would be accomplished by the testimony of experts, in this case statisticians. Amazon would present a statistician expert who would testify that the number of page reads not paid for was low; the Plaintiff would present a statistician expert who would testify it was high ("battle of the experts"). It would be up to the court to decide which expert they believed. In reality, by the time liability had been established and the court was assessing damages, Amazon and the Plaintiff would almost certainly have come to a settlement (i.e. agreement) on what the payment would be.* Because the suit was a class action, they would then have to present it to the court for approval.

*No defense counsel in his/her right mind would ever want the jury setting the damage award in a case like this.


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## Gertie Kindle

loraininflorida said:


> Convincing a court how to figure out how many page reads Amazon has not paid KU authors for would not be accomplished by author testimony. It would be accomplished by the testimony of experts, in this case statisticians. Amazon would present a statistician expert who would testify that the number of page reads not paid for was low; the Plaintiff would present a statistician expert who would testify it was high ("battle of the experts"). It would be up to the court to decide which expert they believed. In reality, by the time liability had been established and the court was assessing damages, Amazon and the Plaintiff would almost certainly have come to a settlement (i.e. agreement) on what the payment would be.* Because the suit was a class action, they would then have to present it to the court for approval.
> 
> *No defense counsel in his/her right mind would ever want the jury setting the damage award in a case like this.


These lawsuits go on all the time with the music industry. I used to do depo summaries for a lot of different law firms. There were maybe two or three in the music industry and one from a clothing designer. That was funny because she used to be my favorite designer and I was upset when she disappeared from L&T. Doing the depos is how I found out who she'd gone with.


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## Dolphin

Hey, not for nothing, but why does anybody care about the Page Flip thing thing? The money comes out of a fixed pool, so the only reason it would burden you more than other authors is if you happen to have a readership that uses Page Flip more than average.

Even if that's your situation, it should be less and less of an issue as you expand your readership and increase your sample size. Which is great, because expanding your readership is what you should be doing anyway. Beats the hell out of shaking your fist at Amazon while they shrug and ignore a low-priority issue.


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## 39416

That's a very good way of looking at it! We're all being screwed the same! Wait... What?


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## AllyWho

loraininflorida said:


> We're all being screwed the same! Wait... What?


if you believe there is an issue you have options - take your books out of KU, it's not compulsory. If you have proof of your assertion that Amazon is suppressing reads, start legal action. Personally, I had no issue with KU but took my books out to reach a wider audience. I guess I'm missing something, if I was unhappy about pages read I would do something about it.

I still believe many in this thread are blaming Amazon for lack of reads when it's actually a function of low ranks/lack of visibility, but that's not a popular position even though it is one you could remedy with some effort.


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## Dolphin

loraininflorida said:


> That's a very good way of looking at it! We're all being screwed the same! Wait... What?


I'm quite serious. If everybody's being screwed the same, then nobody is being screwed at all.


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## RightHoJeeves

Dolphin said:


> I'm quite serious. If everybody's being screwed the same, then nobody is being screwed at all.


I think the issue is that it wasn't across the board. Some people were experiencing severe reductions in income, some weren't.


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## Dolphin

RightHoJeeves said:


> I think the issue is that it wasn't across the board. Some people were experiencing severe reductions in income, some weren't.


If that's true, right down to causation, then it follows that some other authors are earning more money thanks to the bug. Damned hard to establish either way. I still think the implied task is to increase your readership, instead of fantasizing about suing one of the most powerful corporations in the world.

Another thought: if Page Flip isn't counting towards KENP, then we're currently in a $/KENP bubble. If the bug is fixed, and the size of the pot doesn't increase more than usual in that month, then the sudden reintroduction of all the Page Flip pages will cause a large dip in royalties per page.

I personally wouldn't find that alarming, because I think $/KENP is meaningless in isolation. Still, I fear it'd cause quite a stir in the community at large.


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## 39416

Fantasy? Amazon has gotten itself many class actions against it. Here are two:

_The Amazon Prime Membership Class Action Lawsuit_, Latoya Christmas v. Amazon.com LLC, et al., Case No. 1:17-cv-01301, in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, Eastern Division.

_The Amazon Prime False Advertising Class Action Lawsuit _, Gregory Harris, et al. v. Amazon.com LLC, Case No. BC606984 in the Superior Court of California For the County of Los Angeles.


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## Dolphin

loraininflorida said:


> Fantasy? Amazon has gotten itself many class actions against it. Here are two:


I dare say that the facts in those cases are rather different. Not least in that the potential members of the class may include most American households.

I'd be flabbergasted if you couldn't find a more productive use for your time than trying to become the David to Amazon's Goliath.


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## RightHoJeeves

Dolphin said:


> If that's true, right down to causation, then it follows that some other authors are earning more money thanks to the bug. Damned hard to establish either way. I still think the implied task is to increase your readership, instead of fantasizing about suing one of the most powerful corporations in the world.


Yeah I think it's pretty easy to say "you better increase your readership". The authors who felt it the worst are the ones who had massive slices of their readership dedicated to KU. People had massive drops in their income, and they built their audiences on the basis of the agreement with Amazon. If you've got an agreement with an entity and suddenly you're not getting what you're entitled to, then it makes sense people are annoyed.

Granted it highlights the risk of having your eggs in one basket. But then again its a pretty fair assumption that Amazon wouldn't introduce a feature that essentially allowed readers to read a book without it registering the pages read.


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## Gertie Kindle

Dolphin said:


> If that's true, right down to causation, then it follows that some other authors are earning more money thanks to the bug. Damned hard to establish either way. I still think the implied task is to increase your readership, instead of fantasizing about suing one of the most powerful corporations in the world.
> 
> Another thought: if Page Flip isn't counting towards KENP, then we're currently in a $/KENP bubble. If the bug is fixed, and the size of the pot doesn't increase more than usual in that month, then the sudden reintroduction of all the Page Flip pages will cause a large dip in royalties per page.
> 
> I personally wouldn't find that alarming, because I think $/KENP is meaningless in isolation. Still, I fear it'd cause quite a stir in the community at large.


You're missing the fact that several of our members tested the page flip issue. Even videotaped someone reading page by page and none of those pages were paid for. They also tested going back to the beginning of the book before closing it and they were also not paid for that.


----------



## Dolphin

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> You're missing the fact that several of our members tested the page flip issue. Even videotaped someone reading page by page and none of those pages were paid for. They also tested going back to the beginning of the book before closing it and they were also not paid for that.


No, I never said the bug doesn't exist. I just don't see why it wouldn't average out across everybody's readerships, especially if you've got a larger pool of readers to begin with (if you've got five readers and they're all Page Flip enthusiasts, then sure, but it becomes less and less likely as your readership expands).

Nobody's injured if it's averaged across the board. Whatever doesn't get averaged out will lead to both losers _and_ winners.



RBN said:


> Getting screwed equitably is not the same as not getting screwed.


To quote Marsellus Wallace, "That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts; it never helps."

Outside of random variance (which, again, you can minimize by getting more readers), my best guess for why it _wouldn't_ be equitable is if a sizable chunk of the pool is going to scammers--who are fastidious in their avoidance of Page Flip--while all of the actual human readers are adopting Page Flip en masse. I just doubt that the numbers would support that theory. Lord knows we don't have any actual numbers we could check.


----------



## RightHoJeeves

Dolphin said:


> Whatever doesn't get averaged out will lead to both losers _and_ winners.


That is precisely the point.


----------



## 9 Diamonds

AliceW said:


> if you believe there is an issue you have options - take your books out of KU, it's not compulsory. If you have proof of your assertion that Amazon is suppressing reads, start legal action.
> 
> I still believe many in this thread are blaming Amazon for lack of reads when it's actually a function of low ranks/lack of visibility, but that's not a popular position even though it is one you could remedy with some effort.


Hear, hear.


----------



## Laran Mithras

Very popular indie authors have been in this thread explaining how their newest releases showed no new page reads, yet their paperback sales had shot up as expected.

Another displayed a series-read result where each 200 page book was only showing 40 pages read before the customer bought the next in the series.

These anecdotes might be dismissed, but they happened. Books went out, but the author did not receive payment for reads. That has nothing to do with low visibility or rankings. that has everything to do with our page reads being defined down to "whatever Amazon feels like" (as in their KU terms of service).

We also wonder if trad-pubs get special treatment for putting their books into KU. What kind of incentive are they getting indies don't? "We'll pay you $X per book no matter how many pages are read." We assume this could be possible.

For very detailed exposures of these issues, the entire 130 pages of this thread is invaluable. For some it might be low rankings and or visibility. For many, it had nothing to do with either.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## David VanDyke

Dolphin said:


> I'm quite serious. If everybody's being screwed the same, then nobody is being screwed at all.


Nobody gets screwed the same. If there are X factors that we have no information about, we end up with problems we have no idea how to fix, except by trial and error, word of mouth, and guesswork.

For example, different genres being affected differently--maybe. Or, different formatting programs yielding different results. Or authors who have been with KDP a certain amount, or who used TOCs, or who didn't use TOCs, or, or, or.

Some authors reported 90% drops from one month to the next. Some reported no discernible change.

By analogy, this is like Amazon rolling dice for each author and randomly applying a penalty. Claiming the average is all that matters is incorrect. Remember, if the average temperature is a perfect 72 degrees F, but only because it varies regularly between 32 and 112, Grandma dies.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

David VanDyke said:


> Nobody gets screwed the same. If there are X factors that we have no information about, we end up with problems we have no idea how to fix, except by trial and error, word of mouth, and guesswork.
> 
> For example, different genres being affected differently--maybe. Or, different formatting programs yielding different results. Or authors who have been with KDP a certain amount, or who used TOCs, or who didn't use TOCs, or, or, or.
> 
> Some authors reported 90% drops from one month to the next. Some reported no discernible change.
> 
> By analogy, this is like Amazon rolling dice for each author and randomly applying a penalty. Claiming the average is all that matters is incorrect. Remember, if the average temperature is a perfect 72 degrees F, but only because it varies regularly between 32 and 112, Grandma dies.


^This^

I lost confidence in Page Reads.


----------



## Dpock

This is a newbie question - where do you see the number of your KENP pages for any given title?


----------



## passerby

Dpock said:


> This is a newbie question - where do you see the number of your KENP pages for any given title?


On your dashboard, click on Bookshelf.

When your books appear, on the extreme right you will see three little horizontal dots. Hover over them until a menu appears. Then click on KDP Select Info.
Scroll down to the bottom until you see something like this: Kindle Edition Normalized Page Count (KENPC) v2.0: 435 (You may have to close a small window that gives you the latest info on your KDP select status first.)


----------



## 75845

Dolphin said:


> No, I never said the bug doesn't exist. I just don't see why it wouldn't average out across everybody's readerships, especially if you've got a larger pool of readers to begin with (if you've got five readers and they're all Page Flip enthusiasts, then sure, but it becomes less and less likely as your readership expands).


Page Flip is not a bug, it's an intended feature imported from Google Play Books without communication with the KU team about its consequences. I left KU over that intended feature and have avoided this thread as somebody else's problem, but clicked on the last page to see if Amazon have changed Page Flip to more Amazon friendly behaviour. Apparently it is still viewed by them as a feature, not a bug.


----------



## katrina46

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> ^This^
> 
> I lost confidence in Page Reads.


If someone reads your book and you don't get paid, your being screwed. Doesn't matter if you're the only one, or one of thousands. You aren't being paid for your hard work. I mean that to say I've lost confidence too.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

katrina46 said:


> If someone reads your book and you don't get paid, your being screwed. Doesn't matter if you're the only one, or one of thousands. You aren't being paid for your hard work. I mean that to say I've lost confidence too.


Also makes you wonder what else you can't trust


----------



## Seneca42

Of the top 100 scifi paid books, 89 of them are in KU. This is way up from four or so months ago when, if memory serves correctly, it was around 60-70. And of the 11 that are not, most of them are big publishers, not indies.

Amazon has absolutely *no need* to address issues with KU. Authors remain highly committed to the program despite all its flaws. I'm going to throw out a truly wild prediction, by the end of 2017 page read pay out will be .0038. And authors will slurp it up happily.


----------



## David VanDyke

Well put. It's like working within the walled city vs. outside. You can make a living either way, but it's hard to do both if the Lord Mayor doesn't like those wild heathen out there. I won't be moving back in the walls again with my English language backlist until they fix things.


----------



## Seneca42

TwistedTales said:


> Life outside the walls is good. It's sunny, warm and the water is fine.


If the urge ever strikes you, the one thing kboard doesn't have is any kind of comprehensive overview of how to approach the market wide.

Based on your past posts FB ads seem to be your primary vehicle. I'm thinking I may have to start looking into that to really offset the way Amazon is operating lately.


----------



## Laran Mithras

I haven't been able to figure out FB ads and I've been into computers since DOS and the Apple II Plus.


----------



## Hope

Atlantisatheart said:


> There is a problem with page reads registering for the 19th and 20th June. If you check the data stream on the old URL for the old dashboard with the new dashboard pages are down. Amazon claims it's fraudulent page reads that they are taking back - BS - it's a problem with their accounting because it's happening across the board.


How do you get to the old dashboard?


----------



## Beth_Hammond

katygirl said:


> How do you get to the old dashboard?


You can't anymore. Amazon shut the access off.


----------



## SuzyQ

I very much suspect that the 'glitch' in data was us seeing the ACTUAL data that they have been suppressing. They might be auditing certain genres more than others. We all know that romance readers gobble up books at an astounding rate. 

I believe we just saw behind the curtain.

It feels like a real betrayal from Zon. They can do whatever they want. Their answer to scammers is to just flat out steal from the rest of us.


----------



## Dolphin

SuzyQ said:


> It feels like a real betrayal from Zon. They can do whatever they want. Their answer to scammers is to just flat out steal from the rest of us.


----------



## 39416

A knowledgeable author posted this on another forum. I am not a computer person, can somebody maybe explain it for me? I'm not sure I am following it exactly.

"I just got an interesting email from KDPulse. I use them to keep track of all of my KDP reports. Their app stopped working yesterday and, according to them, it's because Amazon changed their reporting data stream again. After that fiasco last week where all product pages were down while they changed their reporting streams, they were expected to make another change, just not this quickly.

KDPulse noticed an interesting data change that might explain the speed. According to them, the new KENP data stream is vastly different from the old one. It's about 50% smaller. Meaning that KENP page reads are about 50% fewer on the new stream than they were on the old stream. 

The old streams are being deleted and replaced with the new ones. Could it be that Amazon is hoping to hide the HUGE loss in KENP page reads? a 50% decrease is a massive decrease with no correlating cause (subscriptions haven't decreased) other than the Page Flip software, which they still say has no real effect. 50% sounds like a "real effect" to me."


----------



## AlecHutson

loraininflorida said:


> A knowledgeable author posted this on another forum. I am not a computer person, can somebody maybe explain it for me? I'm not sure I am following it exactly.
> 
> "I just got an interesting email from KDPulse. I use them to keep track of all of my KDP reports. Their app stopped working yesterday and, according to them, it's because Amazon changed their reporting data stream again. After that fiasco last week where all product pages were down while they changed their reporting streams, they were expected to make another change, just not this quickly.
> 
> KDPulse noticed an interesting data change that might explain the speed. According to them, the new KENP data stream is vastly different from the old one. It's about 50% smaller. Meaning that KENP page reads are about 50% fewer on the new stream than they were on the old stream.
> 
> The old streams are being deleted and replaced with the new ones. Could it be that Amazon is hoping to hide the HUGE loss in KENP page reads? a 50% decrease is a massive decrease with no correlating cause (subscriptions haven't decreased) other than the Page Flip software, which they still say has no real effect. 50% sounds like a "real effect" to me."


That is interesting. Is it possible that Amazon is finally taking broad action against the scammers and click bots? That would be very welcome. A 50% reduction overall in reads is massive, though. I don't think it's possible that half of the activity in KU is scammers. Right? On the plus side, if that reduction in page reads is true, and it is Amazon cracking down, then it stands to reason that the pay per page read for June would rise - unless the pot shrinks considerably.

Anecdotally I did notice a slowdown in page reads in recent days on my one novel in KU. I just crunched some quick numbers, and my daily page reads from June 20-24 (admittedly a very small sample size) is 3,000 pages per day read less than from June 1-19. Could be a natural slowdown. But I wonder if Amazon is swinging the ban hammer wildly and real readers are getting knocked aside.


----------



## Dolphin

AlecHutson said:


> That is interesting. Is it possible that Amazon is finally taking broad action against the scammers and click bots? That would be very welcome. A 50% reduction overall in reads is massive, though. I don't think it's possible that half of the activity in KU is scammers. Right? On the plus side, if that reduction in page reads is true, and it is Amazon cracking down, then it stands to reason that the pay per page read for June would rise - unless the pot shrinks considerably.


I definitely think it's possible. Especially if Amazon's been retroactively addressing a lot of the scammers only after their page reads have been counted.

Take the books that get stripped of sales ranks, for example. We don't really know what's going on with those, but it's certainly possible that the bots don't mind at all, and they keep merrily devouring pages. It's also possible that since Amazon's already flagged those books, they won't be paying out royalties on them, but they've still had the data flooding in because of how the system was engineered. Now, it's possible they've reengineered it to filter all of that cruft before it's passed to their database for the month.

All of this is more or less a product of my imagination. Nobody's legally at liberty to say. I do think it's possible, though.

Remember too that bots have probably been reading everybody's books, to throw Amazon off their scent. Maybe your income will fall off if you had been a bot favorite for some reason, and now that starts to dry up. Who knows? Certainly don't know how you'd be able to tease out interactions like Page Flip vs. bot crackdowns, assuming they're both a thing. I guess you could try hacking Page Flip off your books for about five minutes before Amazon swoops in and fixes it.

Don't start getting excited about June $/KENP, though. Assume it'll drop slightly. That should be part of your business plan at this point if you're in KU.


----------



## David VanDyke

AlecHutson said:


> I don't think it's possible that half of the activity in KU is scammers.


Why do you think that's not possible?

I think it's very possible. I have no way to gauge how likely, but possible? Sure.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

loraininflorida said:


> KDPulse noticed an interesting data change that might explain the speed. According to them, the new KENP data stream is vastly different from the old one. It's about 50% smaller. Meaning that KENP page reads are about 50% fewer on the new stream than they were on the old stream.


That's not really what happened. The old and new data feeds were identical up until the 19th. At some point during the 19th, the old feed numbers started increasing dramatically, at about twice the rate of the new numbers. When someone queried this, Amazon shut off access to the old feed.

But the new data feed hasn't changed dramatically at all, and there is absolutely NO evidence that there's anything wrong with the way numbers are being reported at present.


----------



## My Dog&#039;s Servant

Twisted Tales:  Thanks for your detailed post on going wide. A lot of good points to keep in mind.  

I started wide and stayed wide for a long time, but moved into KU just before KU2 hit for a variety of reasons, mostly the lack of available time and energy to manage wide, and because Nook sales, which had originally matched Amazon's, had declined significantly. I'm not ready to go back wide yet, but as I've tracked sales/reads/promo results over the last year, I'm mulling the possibility. The best test may be when I start a new series similar to one in KU...same genre, much the same tone. It could be a good test. Or not.


----------



## GoneToWriterSanctum

I don't consent


----------



## Arches

PaulineMRoss said:


> That's not really what happened. The old and new data feeds were identical up until the 19th. At some point during the 19th, the old feed numbers started increasing dramatically, at about twice the rate of the new numbers. When someone queried this, Amazon shut off access to the old feed.
> 
> But the new data feed hasn't changed dramatically at all, and there is absolutely NO evidence that there's anything wrong with the way numbers are being reported at present.


Exactly right, Pauline. If Amazon had cut the page reads for every author in KU by fifty percent, or even for a substantial percentage of authors, this this thread would've grown by a hundred pages within a day. I get tens of thousands of page reads a day, and they have stayed remarkably consistent lately.


----------



## Arches

TwistedTales said:


> I suspect thanks to KU Amazon have lost the support of many authors. I've noticed the number of books enrolled in KU hasn't changed a lot since last year. It certainly isn't climbing by the reported 90,000 new books a month. Given KU authors publish fairly regularly, and new authors are adding books as well, I would have expected the total number to increase exponentially.
> 
> I believe authors who make tens of thousand from KU each month haven't left, and the newbies who make little have also stayed on. The biggest loss of authors in KU is probably the midlisters. We generally don't rely on anything we earn from books so we've less patience for the problems.


I think you're right that authors who make a lot on KU will stay in the program instead of going wide in the hopes of possibly doing even better. That's just common sense. I'm not so sure, though, that the number of books in KU matters much. It's the number of *popular* books in KU that's important, and we don't know whether those numbers are changing.

On the other hand, we can see the numbers of page reads in KU each month, and those are rising. As long as that's the case, I expect Amazon will avoid huge changes to KU that might upset their KU readers.


----------



## David VanDyke

KU definitely cannibalizes sales. The ratio is probably not 1 for 1 -- maybe 1 for 2, i.e., you're going to get 2-ish borrows and lose a sale. When you go back wide, you get some sales back for those people who will read the book even if it's retail price, and you lose some people who only read KU.

If my own Netflix model experience holds, there are things I really want, which I'll pay retail for, and second-tier things that I'll watch when I'm in the mood. Netflix has some of each. If all the "really want" things fled Netflix, I'd probably drop Netflix.


----------



## Seneca42

Arches said:


> I think you're right that authors who make a lot on KU will stay in the program instead of going wide in the hopes of possibly doing even better.


I think the KU trend is directly tied (although with varying degrees of lag) to the sentiment in the market. I enjoy kboards, but let's be honest, there's a bit of a groupthink mentality that goes on here _sometimes_ (as well as on FB and other places). Six months ago the ardent supporters of KU were *very* strong. Since then, there's a noticeable shift where more people are endorsing wide (still the minority, but way more than six months ago).

People were told wide is almost impossible to make work, but some folks here went ahead anyway and they all seem to have experienced a maintenance or growth in revenue. I chuckle because six months ago I said that I thought KU was cannibalizing my sales and was swamped with people saying there is no evidence KU does that. Now that view seems less crazy as others postulate that KU was cannibalizing their sales.

I think as more people find that going wide isn't the bloodletting experience others have made it out to be, the shift away from KU will grow slowly. But I think you're also bang on the money... authors who have an established and strong presence on Amazon are benefiting greatly from their position in that ecosystem (ie. wide would hurt them). But for others, without that established position, anecdotally i think KU is becoming extremely hard to gain visibility in *and* you have to deal with all the questions around the legitimacy of their reporting mechanisms. The top dogs get whitelisted and don't seem to get hit nearly as much as others with strange glitchy read issues.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


----------



## David VanDyke

Seneca42 said:


> I chuckle because six months ago I said that I thought KU was cannibalizing my sales and was swamped with people saying there is no evidence KU does that. Now that view seems less crazy as others postulate that KU was cannibalizing their sales.


I seem to remember discussions about this where people acknowledge that KU cannibalized retail sales, but that the increased visibility and page reads made up for it in overall revenue.

I for one always believed KU cannibalized retail sales, but that the overall effect was more money in my pocket (before I went wide).


----------



## Seneca42

TwistedTales said:


> I must have provided consulting services for 80 or more large companies over the decades, and met with over a thousand more. After a while I got very adept at assessing where they were headed.
> 
> I suspect Amazon meant well when they started, but there is a massive gap between what the execs think is happening versus what's really going on.


and what the general public never ever sees if they haven't worked in that environment is that 99% of the time there is someone, either at the table or just below it in the org chart, who clearly points out what is happening. It's not like the impending disaster isn't known. It's actively ignored. I've seen a handful of truly brilliant people who lost their jobs *because* they dared tell management that their strategy was going to backfire (when layoffs came, they were the first cut, *not* promoted.). After a while, the smart people just keep their mouth shut to keep their jobs. This is why monoliths eventually fall, because people stop operating based on reality and rather simply do and say whatever will keep their job.

This process continues, with a magnified Peter principle in effect, until you have a bunch of Michael Scotts running the place and talent starts going to other businesses that don't have their head up their butts.

But that process can take a decade or more.


----------



## Dolphin

Atlantisatheart said:


> The rest of us are testing our wings in one way or another, but at some point, I think the whole thing will come crashing down around Amazon's arrogant ears and someone else will walk in and collect the spoils.


People have been saying that even longer than they've been saying that Barnes & Noble will collapse any day. It's deeply irrational. I'll never understand why folks are making business decisions on that basis.


----------



## 39416

"Posted By:	kdpadmin
Created in:	System: Global Announcement
Posted:	Jun 22, 2017 5:54 PM
Hello,

Some Authors recently raised a concern about information from the old KDP reports not matching the new reports. The old reports are no longer being maintained and we can confirm the pages read displayed on the new KDP reports are correct. We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused. 

Regards,

The Kindle Direct Publishing Team"


----------



## C.F.

TwistedTales said:


> I suspect Amazon meant well when they started, but there is a massive gap between what the execs think is happening versus what's really going on.


You don't even have to climb to the executive level to see it at Amazon. Every single writer's conference I've been to where Amazon reps were present, authors have brought up concerns only to be met with, "That doesn't happen." Every. Single. Time. It's infuriating.


----------



## David VanDyke

C.F. said:


> You don't even have to climb to the executive level to see it at Amazon. Every single writer's conference I've been to where Amazon reps were present, authors have brought up concerns only to be met with, "That doesn't happen." Every. Single. Time. It's infuriating.


Naw. That didn't happen.

*ducks*


----------



## Seneca42

TwistedTales said:


> Many employees can see the weaknesses inside of their companies, but telling someone with more money than sense they're screwing up isn't easy. They don't want to hear it anymore than anyone else would. They will become defensive even when they think they're being receptive.


We can thank Harvard for this. Companies used to be run by the person who came up with the great idea. So they were rabidly committed to the product itself because the guy at the top was once upon a time a worker themselves. It was a "passion" for them. Like writing is for us. They genuinely wanted to change the world through their company and innovations; and the workforce itself was community-based (ie. from the local area).

Then Harvard starting pumping out MBA's like clones out of The Matrix... who were installed into companies via Wall Street... and who proceeded to run every business like a sweat shop, maximizing revenue and squeezing down costs (including outsourcing). Surprise surprise, all the "passion" dies a quick death and you have rule by bureaucracy (or in this case some dipshit who only cares about how a decision will be seen by Wall Street and effect the share price).

Amazon is the worst of all companies in this regard. The "promise" with Amazon is to create a near-automated business model that squeezes the life out of suppliers (and eventually customers) through market monopoly... all designed and driven by Wall Street MBA's who care abotu nothing but maximizing shareholder value. And when their methods fail and the business tanks at some point, they'll move on to the next one and repeat the process.

It's a mad mad world.


----------



## GoneToWriterSanctum

I don't consent


----------



## David VanDyke

TwistedTales said:


> I know some people believe the "bestsellers" are protected, but I doubt that's true. They might wear slighter cleaner gloves to handle the trads but the indies, no matter how much they sell/borrow, are lightweights in the game.


Take my word for it, they are protected. I know at least one seven figure indie personally, who gets bonuses every month, who can pick up the phone and call a top rep at KDP. I'm sure s/he has expressed dismay when something seems to be going wrong. Do you think they won't simply add some digits to the KU numbers to shield the author from any shocks that would drive them away from KU? Casinos rebate losses for their whales, the ones who bring millions of dollars (and their friends and families) to the table. They shower them with comps. Amazon has flown this author to events and some of their books are under Amazon imprints--and especially, this author has Audible studios do all their audiobooks and gives advances--no messing with ACX--and audible pushes the product. Believe me, Amazon treats its top earners well, them's that haves gets, just like any other publisher.


----------



## Hope

David VanDyke said:


> Well put. It's like working within the walled city vs. outside. You can make a living either way, but it's hard to do both if the Lord Mayor doesn't like those wild heathen out there. I won't be moving back in the walls again with my English language backlist until they fix things.


David, did you go wide all at once, or gradually as your KU periods expired? What effect has it had on your income? I get very little in the way of page reads at this point and am thinking about going wide through Pronoun when my terms end. Do you have to do a lot more promotion now?


----------



## David VanDyke

I went wide based on my series order, because it takes some time and effort to do it all, mainly from my wife, who does a lot of this. She put up one book at a time on all the sites, then moved on to the next book in the series, and so on. It took a couple of months to do 20+ books.

Of course I saw a big hit to to the income, but the downward trend stabilized after a couple of months at about 50% of the KU, and now it's growing steadily again as the people on the other vendors discover the books. It seems like within 6 months to a year, it should be back to where it was without KU, as the other vendors take up the slack.

I do the same amount of promotion, though. The good thing is, the promotion sites that do serve the other vendors are new ponds for me to fish in, so that helps. Before, I was paying for promos I wasn't really using on those sites, e.g., non-Amazon vendors when I was only on Amazon.


----------



## Hope

David VanDyke said:


> I went wide based on my series order, because it takes some time and effort to do it all, mainly from my wife, who does a lot of this. She put up one book at a time on all the sites, then moved on to the next book in the series, and so on. It took a couple of months to do 20+ books.
> 
> Of course I saw a big hit to to the income, but the downward trend stabilized after a couple of months at about 50% of the KU, and now it's growing steadily again as the people on the other vendors discover the books. It seems like within 6 months to a year, it should be back to where it was without KU, as the other vendors take up the slack.
> 
> I do the same amount of promotion, though. The good thing is, the promotion sites that do serve the other vendors are new ponds for me to fish in, so that helps. Before, I was paying for promos I wasn't really using on those sites, e.g., non-Amazon vendors when I was only on Amazon.


Is there a reason you went to each site individually instead of going through Pronoun or one of the other services that distributes to all of the sites? I'm just wondering how best to go about it. Thanks.


----------



## David VanDyke

More money and more control. Direct to Kobo and Nook is easy. We were invited to Google Play so we go direct there too. You may have to use an aggregator.

We use D2D for Apple, and Smashwords for everything else.


----------



## Hope

David VanDyke said:


> More money and more control. Direct to Kobo and Nook is easy. We were invited to Google Play so we go direct there too. You may have to use an aggregator.
> 
> We use D2D for Apple, and Smashwords for everything else.


Thanks for your help! I need to look into all of this.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I'm resurrecting this to see if anyone has noticed any changes/improvements recently.

In 17th January several of my books suddenly shot up in ranking for no apparent reason. Some by a slight margin, others a bit more. A few hadn't had sales for a considerable time, so I was hoping for at least a few page reads. Two of the books did show a sale or two and some page reads, but others have shown nothing, and yet the sales ranking is still creeping up. I know there are several reasons for the ranking to go up, but I've lost trust in the 'other' reasons and wonder if it's still the problem of page flip, returning to the beginning without closing etc. But oddly,the book with the most sales and page reads since 17th January shows a downward ranking


----------



## A past poster

David VanDyke said:


> Take my word for it, they are protected. I know at least one seven figure indie personally, who gets bonuses every month, who can pick up the phone and call a top rep at KDP. I'm sure s/he has expressed dismay when something seems to be going wrong. Do you think they won't simply add some digits to the KU numbers to shield the author from any shocks that would drive them away from KU? Casinos rebate losses for their whales, the ones who bring millions of dollars (and their friends and families) to the table. They shower them with comps. Amazon has flown this author to events and some of their books are under Amazon imprints--and especially, this author has Audible studios do all their audiobooks and gives advances--no messing with ACX--and audible pushes the product. Believe me, Amazon treats its top earners well, them's that haves gets, just like any other publisher.


I didn't read through this thread the first time around. What you said confirms what I have suspected. Also, Amazon is a publisher, a huge, powerful publisher. Amazon owns Lake Union Publishing, Thomas & Mercer, and Montlake Romances. These Amazon publishing companies put out new books every month that are "set up." Amazon puts the new books in a club for Prime members to get one free book so the books can get a bucket of early reviews. If you click on "Books" when you first go on Amazon, you'll see books that have the Amazon imprints dominating the page. It's massive exposure, and it continues page after page. Amazon pushes its own imprints over other books and is making multiple millions with their own publishing companies.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Resurrecting a zombie thread to see if anyone has any current news on the Page-Flip and Exit Point issues.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Have just read a post that said it had been solved in January when a 'close book' was added. Will try to find it again.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Have just read a post that said it had been solved in January when a 'close book' was added. Will try to find it again.


Just saw that in the KU poll thread, as a reply to me.


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## AltMe

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Have just read a post that said it had been solved in January when a 'close book' was added. Will try to find it again.


I said it. No proof other than my own experience before going wide for 6 months, and after coming back. Added to my own IT experience, and good old gut feel.

Nothing was ever admitted, but they made changes to the Menu, and at the same time, the single digit numbers vanished and became normal numbers again. When I went back into KU about a month later, I started getting full reads again.

The whole thing had the feel of a bug fix never mentioned.


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## Hope

The single digit page read thing has never gone away for me, if that's what you're asking about. I have one right now. I get them regularly. When you don't sell a lot, you can see them more easily than people who are doing a large volume in page reads.


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## Gertie Kindle

Hope said:


> The single digit page read thing has never gone away for me, if that's what you're asking about. I have one right now. I get them regularly. When you don't sell a lot, you can see them more easily than people who are doing a large volume in page reads.


Me, too. I've been wondering, though, if those are KOLL borrows.


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## Hope

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Me, too. I've been wondering, though, if those are KOLL borrows.


I thought KOLL borrows were part of KU1? I didn't think that was happening anymore. I'm certainly not seeing any money for them if they are KOLL.


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## Pandorra

oops old thread lol .. nm


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## Gertie Kindle

Hope said:


> I thought KOLL borrows were part of KU1? I didn't think that was happening anymore. I'm certainly not seeing any money for them if they are KOLL.


Look at the graph. If you hover over the page reads, it says KU and KOLL. They combine the earnings on the royalty report, too.


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## Hope

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Look at the graph. If you hover over the page reads, it says KU and KOLL. They combine the earnings on the royalty report, too.


So does a KOLL pay the same way? Per page? I don't know, I didn't realize what that was.


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## Gertie Kindle

Hope said:



> So does a KOLL pay the same way? Per page? I don't know, I didn't realize what that was.


I'm pretty sure it doesn't pay per page, but per borrow. If I remember correctly, it's a free monthly borrow. There's usually a reminder thread about it at the end of each month.

Here's an explanation.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,246832.msg3436191.html#msg3436191

If it's tied into Select, then anyone going wide will see the one page reads disappear. Again, if the one page reads are actually KOLL.


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## Atlantisatheart

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Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

There goes another bookmarked thread


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