# To Successful ($5,000+ a month) Self-Published Authors - What Genre Do You Write



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

A simple little survey... to those 'big money' self-pubbers -- what genre (and word count) do you write in and do you market your books through promotions and ads?

For myself -- I write in erotica (short story smut 5-9k word count) and made well over 5k in september. No marketing or promotions.


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

(Books with my wife) Urban/Paranormal Fantasy
70-80k words
Little to no ads (except when Bookbub says yes, though we tried ENT last month.)


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## Joe Ducie (May 15, 2012)

Urban Fantasy.

A new release nets me five figures a month, but those numbers drop off swiftly if I don't release another within, say, four months. I haven't released this year due to traditional publishing commitments. Should be interesting to see if the numbers leap again when I release the 4th and 5th books over the next few months.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Urban fantasy, epic fantasy, and science fiction. I do some promotions, mostly little ones (can't get a bookbub to save my life).  Urban fantasy is by far my best seller at the moment.  Length for most of my stuff is novella (15-40k).  Going forward I'll probably mostly write 60k-80k novels, but more out of preference than necessity. I'll write shorter works to use in KU though, maybe.


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## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

I'd be happy to make $5k a month just in a regular job. So, if you're making 5k a month, forget the fact you even have to say your a writer, author whatever. Just walk away with the cash. 

My day job doesn't even make that a month. Sorry, just a comment. But couldn't resist.


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## Mark Tyson (Sep 22, 2014)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Urban fantasy, epic fantasy, and science fiction. I do some promotions, mostly little ones (can't get a bookbub to save my life). Urban fantasy is by far my best seller at the moment. Length for most of my stuff is novella (15-40k). Going forward I'll probably mostly write 60k-80k novels, but more out of preference than necessity. I'll write shorter works to use in KU though, maybe.


At risk of this being a really stupid question: What's the main difference between an Urban Fantasy and a Contemporary Fantasy. (i'm too lazy to google right now)


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## Mark Tyson (Sep 22, 2014)

ゴジラ said:


> I write urban fantasy, too.
> 
> Urban fantasy and contemporary fantasy are probably safely interchangeable (also, "paranormal"). There are nuances, but I think most folks ignore them and the explanation is long-winded and not really worth the effort.


Thanks for the info!


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Urban fantasy, epic fantasy, and science fiction. I do some promotions, mostly little ones (can't get a bookbub to save my life). Urban fantasy is by far my best seller at the moment. Length for most of my stuff is novella (15-40k). Going forward I'll probably mostly write 60k-80k novels, but more out of preference than necessity. I'll write shorter works to use in KU though, maybe.


Hmm, interesting. Are you hammering out books in the same genre of fantasy or do you spread the joy around?


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

I write paranormal chick lit, in the 60,000-85,000 range. Although, it's tough to stay in that $5K range. The difference between us and a day job, is that some months, you're at $5K and some months, you may only be at $500. It can be nerve-wracking. 

I do sale promos every few months. When I get another book up in my series, though, if Amazon's stopped doing the monthly bonuses, I may put the first one in perma-free. But really, you need new releases to keep that $5K monster happy.

New releases outside of my series, tend to bring very little to the table, income-wise. The series carries the whole enchilada.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Hmm, interesting. Are you hammering out books in the same genre of fantasy or do you spread the joy around?


At the moment I'm sticking with urban fantasy. After a couple more books, I'll release another epic fantasy. Next year I plan to go back to SF and finish a trilogy I have started.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I write epic fantasy in the 40-60K word range and release 2-3 series titles yearly. I do paid advertising, keep a mailing list, website and FB page. But beyond that, nothing. No blogging (just a static website), no Twitter, promotions services or blog tours. I think you have to find a couple social/promo things you're comfortable with - stuff that works for your genre - and dump the rest in favor of writing time. Trying to be everywhere at once is crazy-making.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

YA historical paranormal (65k-75k) and historical romance (80-90k) are my main genres, but I also occasionally put out contemporary romances and mysteries. 

I pay for advertising every couple of months or so when the numbers drop. I have a lot of books out now, so I don't always have to promote the same series.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I write traditional mystery (70-75k). I don't do much in the way of promotion yet, but probably will once the series is finished and needs to stand on its own two feet without new releases.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Urban fantasy, epic fantasy, and science fiction. I do some promotions, mostly little ones (can't get a bookbub to save my life).


What a pretty little star you have!  I came over to see it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

ʬ said:


> What a pretty little star you have!  I came over to see it.


Haha. I figured it's the only sig that's safe


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I write in SciFi, epic fantasy, urban fantasy, paranormal but the bills are paid by the SciFi. It doesn't mean my other genres couldn't pay for you, it just means the series I have in them haven't taken off like my SciFi. My audio money equals or exceeds all eBook revenue combined and those are SciFi too


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I don't consider myself "big money." Yet. I make a solid five figures a month on a mixture of genres and two names (it ranges from $10,000 to $15,000 a month right now). So far, it's been cozy mysteries, young adult, and erotic. This month I'm launching my new romantic suspense series under a pen name, with an aim on releasing a 60,00+ book a month. I've worked ahead, and should have the fourth book (making me safe through January) done in about a week. My goal is to be making $20,000 a month at the end of December. We'll see how it goes. I have my nose to the grindstone right now.


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## CelinaGrace (Nov 20, 2013)

It is with shy pride that I realise that I am one of these authors! 

I write mysteries. My breadwinner series are contemporary police procedural mysteries but my novella series of historical mysteries is also gaining traction (and I'm planning a spin-off full length series from the first book next year - some fans are very happy about that).

My modern mysteries are about 45-55K, there are currently four in the series with the fifth currently being written and due for release next month. I rarely do any marketing apart from a six-monthly Bookbub on the permafree.


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## Debra Dunbar (Jan 11, 2014)

That gray zone between Urban/Contemporary Fantasy and Paranormal Romance  
My books are 95-100k.  I've got 5 currently released in the main series, with 1 in preorder, 2 spin-off novels, and the first in a spin-off series.  The series so far is my bread and butter.


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## rashad.freeman001 (Feb 23, 2012)

Well this is all depressing lol. J/K it's actually really inspiring.  I just had my first $1k month last month so hopefully I can join the 5k a month club sooner than later.  Congrats to all those that have.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Urban/Contemporary Fantasy (seems to be popular in this thread), with horror-comedy leanings.

Typically 80k+ in size.

I do a few Bookbub ads / year.
I keep a Goodreads ad campaign running and I boost one or two FB posts a year
Other than that, I most keep active on FB and Twitter.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

ㅈㅈ said:


> At the moment I'm sticking with urban fantasy. After a couple more books, I'll release another epic fantasy. Next year I plan to go back to SF and finish a trilogy I have started.


Are there plans for more Pyrrh novellas? Because I really enjoyed the first one.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Wow, I'm amazed at the number of people on this thread who write fantasy, sci-fi etc. I'd have figured those making $5K+ would all be erotica writers.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

kathrynoh said:


> Wow, I'm amazed at the number of people on this thread who write fantasy, sci-fi etc. I'd have figured those making $5K+ would all be erotica writers.


I agree!


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Scifi and fantasy (and mystery) are probably well represented here because if you write a series in those genres, you have fans for life. I'd guess it's more stable than romance or erotica because romance and erotica move so fast and are so fickle. My romance is right on the edge of being scifi/fantasy (my true loves). I'm at 1k a month now, but plan to move to futuristic urban fantasy novels with a strong romance subplot in the 60-70k word range as soon as I'm done with my romance serial series. I plan to polish next series novels to a gleaming shine with impeccable plotting and release at least two when I start (I hope). I have a really good feeling that settling into a solid novel series will boost me to the 5k point. Crossing my fingers for year two of self publishing.   This thread gives me a lot of confidence that my market observation and actual writing desires are correct. 

(Note to self: stop obsessing about writing erotica. It really isn't a gold rush. Do what feels good for your real fans.(Facepalm.))


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Note you can go to the "KB Authors" section here (Authors tab at top of screen) and sort by number of books sold and see all those who have sold a million, 500k, 250k, etc. Everybody lists their genre. Many are Romance. Romance readers aren't actually that fickle that I've seen. I do suspect that your books may have more staying power if you don't follow trends, although of course you can always shift gears and follow the new trend, particularly if you write short. 

I write contemp romance and rom suspense. About 100k long.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I totally believe you Rosalind. I plan to stay in "romance" but plan to get far away from trends and start writing full length. I want to write really solid books with greater staying power that have multiple entry points for fans. I'd rather be original and a trend setter than a follower. Maybe it will take a little bit to gain readers, but in the end it will be well worth it.


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## SkyScribe (Aug 18, 2014)

A complicated swirl of mystery/thriller/horror/fantasy.

Promotional methods include personal mailing list, promo sites for free and paid books, direct to consumer sales, blurbing, print copy giveaways at book festivals, and Kickstarter.


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

kathrynoh said:


> Wow, I'm amazed at the number of people on this thread who write fantasy, sci-fi etc. I'd have figured those making $5K+ would all be erotica writers.


So there is hope after all  Maybe my next one should be a scifi/erotica crossover...then I'd really make a killing.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Epic Fantasy, YA


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Andrei Cherascu said:


> So there is hope after all  Maybe my next one should be a scifi/erotica crossover...then I'd really make a killing.


Noooooo, sci fi readers do not like too much sex, and vice-versa. I was not aware of this bias when I released my sci-fi/spec-fic/sexitimes serial. It does well in Germany, though.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

ABW said:


> Honestly, I think it's healthy for the more successful writers to reiterate that they are indeed making money. *It can't be said enough*. I've read this guy's posts in other threads, and I think his tone is not boastful and in fact is more of the "Hey, you can do it too!" variety. I for one don't want to see the more successful writers chased away from these boards for stating that they are indeed successful.
> 
> Your participation is appreciated, DirtiestDevil!
> 
> - ABW


I agree. He's just spreading his joy. I love hearing when people are actually making decent money. It gives me hope.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2014)

I never knew about dirtiest devil or that he / she's raking it in and I'm a regular reader here.

I've tried a bit of romance this year... And found it disturbingly hard to sell compared to some of the in your face numbers by some guns ... On the other hand, it actually made money vs my horror which made 100 dollars in a year.

Hmm.. Maybe I've been going about it wrong.

Is erotica more salable than erotic romance?


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

ShaneJeffery said:


> I never knew about dirtiest devil or that he / she's raking it in and I'm a regular reader here.
> 
> I've tried a bit of romance this year... And found it disturbingly hard to sell compared to some of the in your face numbers by some guns ... On the other hand, it actually made money vs my horror which made 100 dollars in a year.
> 
> ...


If you write pure smut vs erotic romance you have a totally different crowd. Romance readers are pretty particular. Bad reviews hurt your sales. Erotica, you can write 5000 word shorts and have one, one star review on all of them, and still make a living as long as you cater to the right kink. So, if you can write smutty smut smut, and can look at yourself in the mirror (not judging, it's just true) erotica is far easier (to write) than romance. The real long term money is in romance though, so I hear. You have to release erotica really regularly, at least once a week if not more. You also don't need a HEA or any relationship building or sentiment at all.

This is a link to a book I read recently about writing erotica. It's got a lot of great advice in it. I'm deciding once and for all NOT to write erotica (puts foot down), but it might be helpful to you.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MT5B1NY/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

I wish we had more stats on this.  Not that Amazon is going to give them up. But it would be interested to see a breakdown of numbers of writers who are making X amount every month, their genre, and number of titles. Is the general wisdom that several shorter works (under 30K) are more profitable that longer works?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

No idea about erom vs. erotica as I don't write either.

But I will say that the thing with Romance is--it looks easy, because there are so many readers. But Contemp Romance is also the biggest genre, and has the toughest competition--most of the very biggest sellers on Amazon are in that genre. Tons of competition. Very hard to hit that list even when you sell a lot of books. I've found that my Romantic Suspense books have a bigger burst out of the gate, because I can be in the top 10 in Rom Suspense with a rank that would barely have got me on the list in Contemp Romance, if at all.

That said, of course, Contemp Romance is big because there are tons of women who enjoy it. But it's not a shoo-in. 
(And there is of course a ton of competition in erotic romance these days too.)
Maybe fetish erotica is relatively easy money--maybe, I don't know--but I don't think anything else is!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Deke said:


> I wish we had more stats on this. Not that Amazon is going to give them up. But it would be interested to see a breakdown of numbers of writers who are making X amount every month, their genre, and number of titles. Is the general wisdom that several shorter works (under 30K) are more profitable that longer works?


Look up at that "Authors" tab at the top of your screen. Scroll down to "KB Authors." Scroll through them in descending order and you will see the breakdown of authors by books sold, their genre(s), number of titles, and how long they've been published. That's about the best breakdown I know of.

I don't know about general wisdom. I did well with three 90K-plus books to start, and I have relatively few titles out (10). One 36K, the rest 90-117K. I'd say, whatever you write well enough that's grabby enough for enough people to want--that's the thing to write! (Very vague I know!)


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

With four books that consistently sell pretty well and four that don't sell so hot by comparison, I don't always hit 5K per month, but I do about a third of the time. The rest of the time, I usually come in a little lower than that. I'm hoping a new series I'm launching this month will change that, though! 

So far I've written mostly in historical fiction. I write between 2000 and 10,000 words per day, depending on what specifically I'm working on (sometimes historical fiction requires a lot of research that can slow down your word counts) and what else is going on that day (formatting, cover design, etc.) My daily average for August and September was 4,800. October will be a crazy month for me, so I expect my daily averages to go up to about 6000.

ETA: oh, oops -- you meant word count of books. In the series that sells well and consistently, word count ranges from 60K to 90K. With my other books, the range is from 30K novellas to 160K historical fiction. Big long HF is not unusual. 

The romance I'm writing now, I'm aiming for 50K - 70K.

Yes, I do regularly promote my work with ads. 

This summer I wrote a couple of little PNR novellas to see how readers liked my style. So far, so good -- so I'm putting a lot of focus into romance now, as it has the potential to make more money, and more consistently than historical fiction does, which can be very trend-dependent and hard to predict. If I play my cards right, I'll be up above the 5K mark every month by the end of the year. We'll see! At least romance is super-fun to write, and very little time-eating research is required for PNR!


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> If you write pure smut vs erotic romance you have a totally different crowd. Romance readers are pretty particular. Bad reviews hurt your sales. Erotica, you can write 5000 word shorts and have one, one star review on all of them, and still make a living as long as you cater to the right kink. So, if you can write smutty smut smut, and can look at yourself in the mirror (not judging, it's just true) erotica is far easier than romance. The real long term money is in romance though, so I hear. You have to release erotica really regularly, at least once a week if not more. You also don't need a HEA or any relationship building or sentiment at all.
> 
> This is a link to a book I read recently about writing erotica. It's got a lot of great advice in it. I'm deciding once and for all NOT to write erotica (puts foot down), but it might be helpful to you.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MT5B1NY/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title


This looks like an awesome book.

Such a shame the author couldn't put her name on it properly so we could see it was come from a successful place.

I maybe regret not attempting outright erotica this year. I'm going into a full time job next week, and won't be able to have a massive word output. Perhaps that was what I should have been doing all along.


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## Tasha Black (May 28, 2014)

LisaGloria said:


> Noooooo, sci fi readers do not like too much sex, and vice-versa. I was not aware of this bias when I released my sci-fi/spec-fic/sexitimes serial. It does well in Germany, though.


I was actually just thinking about this!

I feel like SciFi romance is just waiting to be the next paranormal romance. Sexy aliens, exotic locations, genetically enhanced people... What's not to love?  
Time travel is very SciFi, and it is doing well in romance.

Someone just needs to blaze the trail!


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

ShaneJeffery said:


> This looks like an awesome book.
> 
> Such a shame the author couldn't put her name on it properly so we could see it was come from a successful place.
> 
> I maybe regret not attempting outright erotica this year. I'm going into a full time job next week, and won't be able to have a massive word output. Perhaps that was what I should have been doing all along.


Pretty sure it's a he. It's a decision you have to make. If you are going to get a job anyway, take what you've learned and write in the genre you like.


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## egcamby (Aug 20, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> Note you can go to the "KB Authors" section here (Authors tab at top of screen) and sort by number of books sold and see all those who have sold a million, 500k, 250k, etc. Everybody lists their genre. Many are Romance. Romance readers aren't actually that fickle that I've seen. I do suspect that your books may have more staying power if you don't follow trends, although of course you can always shift gears and follow the new trend, particularly if you write short.
> 
> I write contemp romance and rom suspense. About 100k long.


Thanks for the tip! I was trying to figure out how to get that info


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

CJArcher said:


> YA historical paranormal (65k-75k) and historical romance (80-90k) are my main genres, but I also occasionally put out contemporary romances and mysteries.
> 
> I pay for advertising every couple of months or so when the numbers drop. I have a lot of books out now, so I don't always have to promote the same series.


OHHHHH, you wrote The Medium! Loved that book.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Pretty sure it's a he. It's a decision you have to make. If you are going to get a job anyway, take what you've learned and write in the genre you like.


I'm going to do two pen names back to back, monthly short fiction (15 - 25k) for each.

One thriller / horror
One romance

I have to say, from what I've learned, the most sex focused of my titles has sold way more than anything else. The title was like a porno spoof.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Tasha Black said:


> I was actually just thinking about this!
> 
> I feel like SciFi romance is just waiting to be the next paranormal romance. Sexy aliens, exotic locations, genetically enhanced people... What's not to love?
> Time travel is very SciFi, and it is doing well in romance.
> ...


I actually think you are correct. If you look at scifi romance it's very much erotic romance in a scifi setting. Not particularly impressive from a scifi reader's perspective. I'm looking at writing great scifi/paranormal crossover romances that have really strong action/mystery/ suspense plots to keep readers interested. Sexy times are fun. I think the whole climate is more geared toward sexy times, but not at the expense of plot. I'm so tired of paranormal romance novels that are all about sexy times. It's soooo boring. Can I have some story? Some adventure? I don't care about sharing my ideas because I want to be on the next wave of trend not all by my lonesome. lol..


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

ABW said:


> Honestly, I think it's healthy for the more successful writers to reiterate that they are indeed making money. *It can't be said enough*. I've read this guy's posts in other threads, and I think his tone is not boastful and in fact is more of the "Hey, you can do it too!" variety. I for one don't want to see the more successful writers chased away from these boards for stating that they are indeed successful.
> 
> Your participation is appreciated, DirtiestDevil!
> 
> - ABW


at the very least, a thread like this one gives lots of authors a chance to share/compare notes, which can be very helpful for newbies wondering where to focus their efforts, and for authors looking to change things up.

I'm glad to see so many sci-fi authors doing well, as I'd really like to write sci-fi in the future.


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## Tasha Black (May 28, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> I actually think you are correct. If you look at scifi romance it's very much erotic romance in a scifi setting. Not particularly impressive from a scifi reader's perspective. I'm looking at writing great scifi/paranormal crossover romances that have really strong action/mystery/ suspense plots to keep readers interested. Sexy times are fun. I think the whole climate is more geared toward sexy times, but not at the expense of plot. I'm so tired of paranormal romance novels that are all about sexy times. It's soooo boring. Can I have some story? Some adventure? I don't care about sharing my ideas because I want to be on the next wave of trend not all by my lonesome. lol..


I would love to hear more, but don't want to hijack this thread. 
I''ll start a new one!


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

ABW said:


> Honestly, I think it's healthy for the more successful writers to reiterate that they are indeed making money. *It can't be said enough*. I've read this guy's posts in other threads, and I think his tone is not boastful and in fact is more of the "Hey, you can do it too!" variety. I for one don't want to see the more successful writers chased away from these boards for stating that they are indeed successful.
> 
> Your participation is appreciated, DirtiestDevil!
> 
> - ABW


Hear hear, thank you, ABW.

I am learning a lot from reading this thread, and clearly, so are a lot of other people. So yes, I am glad dirtiestdevil started this thread.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

I love these threads and find them incredibly motivational and fascinating.  Thanks everyone who is willing to share your knowledge!


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## Small Town Writer (Jun 11, 2014)

This thread is so inspiring! Especially since I write urban fantasy and my ultimate goal (as is a lot of authors on these boards) is to do this full time. $5K a month is outstanding, and even if you factor in taxes, it's still more than I make currently at my full and part time jobs combined. (Obviously, results may vary among each author, but it's a good source of reference--especially when there are so many people who are saying similar things).


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

MyraScott said:


> I love these threads and find them incredibly motivational and fascinating. Thanks everyone who is willing to share your knowledge!


+1

Thanks, folks!


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

LisaGloria said:


> Noooooo, sci fi readers do not like too much sex, and vice-versa. I was not aware of this bias when I released my sci-fi/spec-fic/sexitimes serial. It does well in Germany, though.


  I was just kidding. Actually, the only negative feedback I received for my novel so far was that it had too little sex  I don't think I'm very good at integrating it into my scifi. I guess I can forget about the movie adaptation.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> This is a link to a book I read recently about writing erotica. It's got a lot of great advice in it. I'm deciding once and for all NOT to write erotica (puts foot down), but it might be helpful to you.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MT5B1NY/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title


That's a good book to read if you want to know about writing erotica. I think it could have included a little more information on how to make book covers cheaply and quickly since erotica authors put out a new book every other day or every week.

It's seems that erotic romance is where the big bucks are earned but I'm trying my hand at short erotica since I need some extra cash and a way to get out of my crap job.

I think DirtiestDevil is just sharing her experience and letting other writers know that they can make decent money out of writing. I've PM'd her and she's been very helpful.

*I've lurked on this board for a while and my favourite threads are the success stories such as Rosalind James, K Matthews, H.M. Ward and Viola Rivard. *


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

LisaGloria said:


> Noooooo, sci fi readers do not like too much sex, and vice-versa. I was not aware of this bias when I released my sci-fi/spec-fic/sexitimes serial. It does well in Germany, though.


I actually read the beginning of one of your scifi books and I thought the writing and ideas were stellar.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> If you write pure smut vs erotic romance you have a totally different crowd. Romance readers are pretty particular. Bad reviews hurt your sales. Erotica, you can write 5000 word shorts and have one, one star review on all of them, and still make a living as long as you cater to the right kink. So, if you can write smutty smut smut, and can look at yourself in the mirror (not judging, it's just true) erotica is far easier (to write) than romance. The real long term money is in romance though, so I hear. You have to release erotica really regularly, at least once a week if not more. You also don't need a HEA or any relationship building or sentiment at all.
> 
> This is a link to a book I read recently about writing erotica. It's got a lot of great advice in it. I'm deciding once and for all NOT to write erotica (puts foot down), but it might be helpful to you.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MT5B1NY/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title


That about sums it up. Although I wouldn't say writing erotica (selling that is...) is actually any easier than romance. The real difference is a lax standard in general writing prose. In erotica -- typos and grammar and 'plots' can be forgiven if they are a bit lackluster. There are TONS of people trying to write erotica and still failing miserably. We're talking 50-80+ books and still less than a few hundred a month, if that.

You have to consider though... nobody really shares an erotica book 

"Hey mom, come read this awesome book I found!"


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

DanaG said:


> Hear hear, thank you, ABW.
> 
> I am learning a lot from reading this thread, and clearly, so are a lot of other people. So yes, I am glad dirtiestdevil started this thread.


 

I wholeheartedly agree! Those who can put jealousy and envy aside... might actually learn something from a thread where authors talk about WHERE and HOW they make money! Who would have guessed it! 

I know I certainly am, and that was the intent


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

Kalypsō said:


> > Such a shame the author couldn't put her name on it properly so we could see it was come from a successful place.
> 
> 
> Pretty sure it's a he. It's a decision you have to make. If you are going to get a job anyway, take what you've learned and write in the genre you like.


I don't care WHAT name is put on the book -- I want the successful pen name of the author put on the book, so I can see how well these tips are working for he/she/it. Mademoiselle D. Bauch has ONE book, this one. That doesn't tell me whether they know what they're talking about.


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

I really appreciate that these threads are here and authors are still willing to contribute to them (after all the kerfuffles the Kboards has had now and then). These threads are inspirational -- see, there are plenty of authors making this amount of money! This is something perfectly attainable to shoot for! 

So, to all the authors who posted: thank you.


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

I write thrillers: contemporary and noir. My wordcounts are between 70,000 and 120,000, with three novellas thrown into the mix.

Do I market? Hells, yes - all the usual sites, plus Facebook ads and boosts. Also looking at getting into Google PPCs and just about to get some PR assistance on board for on and offline work.

Great thread. I've always found this kind of thing inspiring, and a good motivation to get back into the chair for another hour.

Which is what I'll do now.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

Right now I write erotic romance serials around 20k words and I make between $10k - $20k a month. The income can vary drastically thanks to new releases, lack of new releases, sales, ads I'm running, and of course . . . (now) Kindle Unlimited. I do follow trends. I run sales when it doesn't look like I'm going to hit 5 figures. I price competitively, but that's probably about to change.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Somebody asked about ads. I do some ads. I've done 3 "rolling Countdowns" in the past 7 months--every 2-3 months, a Countdown on all but the latest book in a series, one after the other. That's given me a long enough tail. I'm trying out some stand-alone Countdowns (supported by ads), one every 5-6 weeks, for the next few months, seeing how that goes. I normally release every 3-4 months. 

(I think if you search for "rolling Countdown," you'll find the thread on my strategy. It's done pretty well. Interestingly, post-KU--doing a free promo has resulted in HUGE borrows on the "formerly free" book. Kind of a "huh," but that's what's happened. FWIW.)

Otherwise, my marketing is minimal. I have a good website, and I update it. I interact with my readers on social media every day (mostly because I enjoy it), share what I'm doing, share some of myself for people who care at all about that. And that's about it. I know this is a broken record, but the most important marketing happens before you publish the book. Branded covers. Blurbs. Writing, editing, formatting. Pricing strategy. Being in Select so they basically do some passive marketing for me via the borrows. Putting out beautiful paperbacks so you look legitimate. Now, audio versions (but I waited on those until I could pay for them without wincing too badly.) And most of all, the book you write. Get all that right and the marketing is easy, because especially in Romance, most of the push comes from word of mouth, and you can't control that, other than to involve your readers so they feel connected and engaged, like they're part of your success, because they are (hence the social media aspect). 

Plus, fairy dust. That's the only explanation I've got.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Diane Patterson said:


> I really appreciate that these threads are here and authors are still willing to contribute to them (after all the kerfuffles the Kboards has had now and then). These threads are inspirational -- see, there are plenty of authors making this amount of money! This is something perfectly attainable to shoot for!
> 
> So, to all the authors who posted: thank you.


+1


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

Whenever I fret that maybe my genres would not be able to support a full-time wage, I head over to the best sellers in History and Science categories, look at the rankings of the top 20 books and calculate how many they are selling per day x book price.

Those best-selling history and science authors are making $30,000 to $100,000+ a month, so it definitely IS possible to make a full-time income outside of genres like erotica/romance, etc.

Least that's what I continue to tell myself and strive for.


Philip


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

rashad.freeman001 said:


> Well this is all depressing lol. J/K it's actually really inspiring. I just had my first $1k month last month so hopefully I can join the 5k a month club sooner than later. Congrats to all those that have.


I found it was a lot harder to get to 1k than it was to get from 1k to 5k. 

To the OP: I write straight and gay erotic romance serials. I used to release two short works a week (5k-8k range), but now I've changed to a single release a week averaging around 20k words.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

ShaneJeffery said:


> Is erotica more salable than erotic romance?


Maybe.

The problem is that it's difficult to create an erotica series. And series sell.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Briteka said:


> I found it was a lot harder to get to 1k than it was to get from 1k to 5k.


I hope you're right because I've just scrabbled my way to $1K a month. But that's in mystery/suspense so I don't know if the momentum upward with work with me. Also, I'm only looking at two books a year, three if I'm lucky. I don't know if that will work to leverage up.


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## mrforbes (Feb 16, 2013)

Urban and Epic Fantasy, though I'm going to start a sci-fi series next year.
Earlier works are 100k words, but I've learned to trim a lot of the fluff and now they're closer to 80k.

I've done one Bookbub per year (hoping to increase it). A couple of smaller promotions with Booksends, Freebooksy, etc.
I only use FB and Twitter to communicate with fans, not to market.


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## rachelmedhurst (Jun 25, 2014)

Tasha Black said:


> I was actually just thinking about this!
> 
> I feel like SciFi romance is just waiting to be the next paranormal romance. Sexy aliens, exotic locations, genetically enhanced people... What's not to love?
> Time travel is very SciFi, and it is doing well in romance.
> ...


I think my novella series Avoidables could be classed as Scifi or Fantasy romance. Fingers crossed!


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Nice to see that you can make good money in something other than romance or erotica. And I'm not saying anything bad about those genres, not at all, it's just that one reads about how SF is dead, horror is deader than dead, zombies can't even make it to dead, yada yada.

There's hope for me (even if I'm working on a science fiction romance) to write what I love.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I just used Rosalind's "Rolling countdown" strategy in historical fiction and it was awesome! My ad/countdown started at the end of September but I still made about $1300 more than I would otherwise have made that month, and if sales continue through most of October at even close to their current pace, October could be my best month yet. (We'll see!)

I highly recommend the rolling countdown if you have a series and want to do Select for a time!


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Briteka said:


> I found it was a lot harder to get to 1k than it was to get from 1k to 5k.
> 
> To the OP: I write straight and gay erotic romance serials. I used to release two short works a week (5k-8k range), but now I've changed to a single release a week averaging around 20k words.


Are you making more $ with the 20k weekly release than with multiple shorts?


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> Nice to see that you can make good money in something other than romance or erotica. And I'm not saying anything bad about those genres, not at all, it's just that one reads about how SF is dead, horror is deader than dead, zombies can't even make it to dead, yada yada.
> 
> There's hope for me (even if I'm working on a science fiction romance) to write what I love.


True to a degree. Horror and the like is MUCH harder to sell. I'm quite jealous of Rick G. and his horror/comedy... blast you rick!

I'm not sure what he's done for marketing to erect his little perch in that category, but it's a sweet spot!

Horror has WAAAAY less money in it over all. Romance swamps the entire board, basically. You have a better chance to hit it big in the categories with bigger audiences. Yeah, people can dispute "well less books in smaller categories so I can stick out more!" Good luck with that, and I wish you well! I'll be over hearing chasing the almighty dollar where BIG MONEY is being tossed around -- at the expense of my soul


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

CoraBuhlert said:


> Are there plans for more Pyrrh novellas? Because I really enjoyed the first one.


Yes! My plan next year is to finish all the series I've started (there's like 4 series going now, sigh). Pyrrh is on the list.


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## CelinaGrace (Nov 20, 2013)

Really enjoying this thread. I would say, for those starting out, that it took me three years to actually start earning really decent money and it didn't happen until I had 3 books in a series out, combined with a Bookbub ad and a perma-free (first book in the series).

I'd also been writing for (gulp) about twenty years before I self-published, chasing a traditional publishing deal which needless to say, I didn't get.

Stick at it. It's definitely worth it.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2014)

Erotic Romance (not erotica). 40 to 50k. I used to write shorter, but my readers seemed to start wanting longer works. I don't do much in the way of marketing. My biggest sellers are contemporary erotic romance, second being a shifter erotic romance. I'm very tired of writing this type of work, so I'm trying to move over to mystery. So far I've only written cozy, but I want to write grittier too.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Yes! My plan next year is to finish all the series I've started (there's like 4 series going now, sigh). Pyrrh is on the list.


Good to hear that. And yes, series have the habit of multiplaying like rabbits.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2014)

ゴジラ said:


> I write urban fantasy, too.
> 
> Urban fantasy and contemporary fantasy are probably safely interchangeable (also, "paranormal"). There are nuances, but I think most folks ignore them and the explanation is long-winded and not really worth the effort.


Thank you!



rashad.freeman001 said:


> I just had my first $1k month last month so hopefully I can join the 5k a month club sooner than later. Congrats to all those that have.


I had over a $1K month last month with my zombie stuff, but that series is almost over, and I look forward to my next series, one that doesn't have anything to do with zombies. Based on what many people in this thread are writing, I'm on the right track with my next series. 



kathrynoh said:


> Wow, I'm amazed at the number of people on this thread who write fantasy, sci-fi etc. I'd have figured those making $5K+ would all be erotica writers.


Me too!



ElHawk said:


> at the very least, a thread like this one gives lots of authors a chance to share/compare notes, which can be very helpful for newbies wondering where to focus their efforts, and for authors looking to change things up.
> 
> I'm glad to see so many sci-fi authors doing well, as I'd really like to write sci-fi in the future.


This self-publishing newbie agrees 100 percent! 



CelinaGrace said:


> Really enjoying this thread. I would say, for those starting out, that it took me three years to actually start earning really decent money and it didn't happen until I had 3 books in a series out, combined with a Bookbub ad and a perma-free (first book in the series).
> 
> I'd also been writing for (gulp) about twenty years before I self-published, chasing a traditional publishing deal which needless to say, I didn't get.
> 
> Stick at it. It's definitely worth it.


Thank you for this. I've been a published writer for about 10 years before I started this self-publishing journey. I started in May of 2014 with self-publishing, and although I've sold, nothing spectacular has happened to me yet. I'm not an author who hit it right out of the gate. I'm an author who will have to grind it, probably for a few years, before I really hit.

Ninety-five percent of the goals I've set for myself, I've reached, and I reached them because I work hard, and I'm not a quitter. "Winners never quit and quitters never win."
~~~

THANKS EVERYONE FOR THIS WONDERFUL THREAD!!


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> OHHHHH, you wrote The Medium! Loved that book.


Awww, shucks, thanks.

Like Rosalind said above, the best way to find out top-selling KB authors and their genres is to scroll through the Authors list she linked to. Don't just check out the big names, but take a look at those in mid-range whose numbers might be more attainable. I was a bit surprised to see so many PNR and UF writers chiming into this thread, but I think it makes sense. These are the genres that trad pub are dropping (or not buying new authors) yet readers still want these books. A good combination for indie!


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

I'm only making about $600 - $700 per month right now, so this is a really inspiring thread. Thanks for making it, and thanks to everyone for posting!


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

I write 60 - 65k contemporary romance, and am currently working on two series. I use a combination of Facebook ads, Bookbub, KND, Bknights, and a mix of other sites to advertise my perma-free books. I try to release every 1-2 months and use only my newsletter and social media to promote new releases.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

I write action/adventure and run a BookBub ad about every 8-12 weeks, coupled with a number of smaller ads at the same time. All my titles are 80K-105K words, except the first. It's only 53K words.


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

My average since I started last year has been closer to $4K - the wheels have come off lately due to the fact that I haven't published anything new in 5 months.  (I would also like to tack some of the blame onto KU, but that's an entirely different argument.)  However, I have a new release coming soon, so hopefully I can get things back on track.


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## harker.roland (Sep 13, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> For myself -- I write in erotica (short story smut 5-9k word count) and made well over 5k in september. No marketing or promotions.


Congrats on the HUGE (pun intended) September. What do you think contributed to your success, given no promotion or marketing?


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## Michael J. Scott (Sep 2, 2010)

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but right now I seriously want to cry!  I've written 13 full length novels, 11 of which are indie, and I can't seem to break a hundred bucks a month! Getting solid reviews, too. I almost want to scrap it all, find some pen name and start over - but in what? I have no desire to write erotica. I'm just not sure where to go with all this. 

Forgive me, I'm just feeling kinda sorry for myself right now. Really don't want to be doing my day job for the rest of my life, y'know? Just really want to break out of this frickin' rut I'm living in!


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

harker.roland said:


> Congrats on the HUGE (pun intended) September. What do you think contributed to your success, given no promotion or marketing?


For erotica -- proper keywording, sexy titles/covers, some enticing blurbs and you're good to go.

Think of it this way... I'm basically writing porn. Now, how many people search for porn every day? These are the literary equivalents. Get the keywords right, you'll have THOUSANDS of searches EVERY DAY! You only need to get a small % of those to buy your books every day to make big bucks.


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

Michael J. Scott said:


> Not to rain on anyone's parade, but right now I seriously want to cry!  I've written 13 full length novels, 11 of which are indie, and I can't seem to break a hundred bucks a month! Getting solid reviews, too. I almost want to scrap it all, find some pen name and start over - but in what? I have no desire to write erotica. I'm just not sure where to go with all this.
> 
> Forgive me, I'm just feeling kinda sorry for myself right now. Really don't want to be doing my day job for the rest of my life, y'know? Just really want to break out of this frickin' rut I'm living in!


I understand your frustration. Unfortunately, I probably don't have any advice that you haven't heard before, which is - first and foremost - to just keep on writing. Also, at this juncture, I would advise writing the book you want to write (as opposed to possibly writing what's trending). In addition, some people have said they picked up steam when they changed their covers, changed their blurbs, etc., so those may be things to consider.

In short, there may be some little things you can do to grease the wheels, but definitely don't give up.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Michael J. Scott said:


> Not to rain on anyone's parade, but right now I seriously want to cry!  I've written 13 full length novels, 11 of which are indie, and I can't seem to break a hundred bucks a month! Getting solid reviews, too. I almost want to scrap it all, find some pen name and start over - but in what? I have no desire to write erotica. I'm just not sure where to go with all this.
> 
> Forgive me, I'm just feeling kinda sorry for myself right now. Really don't want to be doing my day job for the rest of my life, y'know? Just really want to break out of this frickin' rut I'm living in!


Start a new thread and ask for advice. Your writing is solid and your reviews are fantastic. You're not hitting your market for some reason. Let the people here festoon you with advice garlands.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

KevinH said:


> My average since I started last year has been closer to $4K - the wheels have come off lately due to the fact that I haven't published anything new in 5 months. (I would also like to tack some of the blame onto KU, but that's an entirely different argument.) However, I have a new release coming soon, so hopefully I can get things back on track.


Oh! Good to hear. About the new release, I mean, not that the wheels have come off lately.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

LisaGloria said:


> Let the people here festoon you with advice garlands.


I'm going to take that phrase and pretend I invented it, if that's all right with you.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

LisaGloria said:


> Start a new thread and ask for advice. Your writing is solid and your reviews are fantastic. You're not hitting your market for some reason. Let the people here festoon you with advice garlands.


Yes, do! You will get a lot more input. It's just amazing to me how generous everyone here is with their advice.


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## J.L. Dickinson (Jul 12, 2014)

LisaGloria said:


> Start a new thread and ask for advice. Your writing is solid and your reviews are fantastic. You're not hitting your market for some reason. Let the people here festoon you with advice garlands.


+1

A diamond in the earth is worth its weight in coal.


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## Michael J. Scott (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks, everyone. It's day light (at least here on the East Coast), and I'm feeling a little better. Been a lot of stuff going on lately not writing related that kinda piled up on me just then.  I'll start the suggested thread and look for some festooning.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> I'm going to take that phrase and pretend I invented it, if that's all right with you.


With my blessings, dear. [magnanimous, dramatic bow]


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

A lot of fantasy writers here but its impossible to find any info on  fantasy books... seriously...?


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I found it was a lot harder to get to 1k than it was to get from 1k to 5k.


I hope this is true! I'm at a steady 1k-1.5k a month right now with promotions once a month. I would love to get up to 5k. I'll be finishing up my series in a few months, then I have plans for a sci-fi trilogy. So exciting to hear sci-fi writers are doing well ... and that I probably won't have to write sex for my stories to sell! I like having it in the background so people can imagine what works for them.


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## Lehane (Apr 7, 2014)

Thank you everyone who shared your experiences and success. Like others, seeing so many urban fantasy/sci-fi/PNR writers hitting success was so cool. My pet projects aren't futile, huzzah!


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## Jo Clendening (Apr 9, 2011)

Very inspiring! Keep up the good work!


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## trublue (Jul 7, 2012)

I write YA fantasy romance. 
Books are about 60-90k.
I write 3-4 books a year.
I make 15-20k a month. When I have a new release it goes up somewhere
Between 23-25k. I like these threads because they have always inspired me.
I made $33 bucks after nearly a year when I first started. I still come here and read posts
Because you can always learn more. Some people on here make like 100k and that drives me to get my butt in the chair and work. Oh and I pay for ads, proudly. I do the normal stuff BB and other places.
I pay for ads every month because you have to invest in your work and 
Keep writing


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

trublue said:


> I write YA fantasy romance.
> Books are about 60-90k.
> I write 3-4 books a year.
> I make 15-20k a month. When I have a new release it goes up somewhere
> ...


Wow! That is INSPIRING!  How many books do you have out in order to earn the 15-20K?


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Sophrosyne said:


> New releases outside of my series, tend to bring very little to the table, income-wise. The series carries the whole enchilada.


I'm printing this out and pasting it to my forehead. Man, I hate this.


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## LA Ramsey (Feb 4, 2014)

INSPIRING!  I wish I had come here sooner - THANK YOU for sharing! I needed this! I read all 5 pages. 
I'm gonna be a typin' maniac to get my new series / serials out!

I'm tired of the "double digits" earnings I have now - I want to see that multiply and I know it will take BIC HOK - BUTT IN CHAIR - HANDS ON KEYBOARD.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Lots of writers for me to check out via this thread  I need something to switch things up, getting a little burned out, I think, on my genre. 

I've made over 5k a month every month for about 2.5 years. Erotica and erotic romance, a lot of BBW romance. Most of it is novella length, some of it is shorter. I do serials and series, plus one offs. No advertising, no blog tours. Definitely try to maximize my passive marketing such as picking an underserved subcategory, fashioning titles that include keywords (billionaire, curves, etc), maximizing my categories on Amazon and such. I do hang out on facebook too much but really don't think that has an impact on sales.


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## NoahPorter (Sep 15, 2013)

Erotica, contemporary romance, apocalyptic, non-fiction (in order of most successful). Lots of pen names.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

I've been hitting $5k+ for the last year and a half with erotica shorts. I got lucky and had one series take off and that is what really did it for me. The only advertising I've ever done were a couple of bknights and genre pulse ads for my freebies over the last couple of months.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

EelKat said:


> I have found that, at least for me:
> 
> M/f sells best
> followed by M/m
> ...


HI Eelkat

can you clarify what you mean on these. I hear this alot but dont get it.

M/F is male and female yes?
M/M is male and male
M/M2F ?
F/M ? isnt that just M/F around the other way lol
F/F female and female
M/M and M/M2f?


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

I've hit $5000 or more in every month this year but three. I have two complete series and one that will be complete next week. All of the series have a permafree lead-in. The first two series are contemporary wealthy guy romance, the latest series is NA romance. I'm not in KU for any of my books, and Amazon is less than 50% of my income and has been for the last three or so months.

I'm trying my hand at erotica next - next month, I'm going to write erotica like crazy, and I'm going to put them all in KU. I'm also trying audiobooks - I have paid for my first six books to be on audio, and they all should be out by early next year. So, I'm trying to diversify. 

As for ads - whenever a new book comes out, I advertise the freebie in that series. I've had two BookBub ads - the first one on my freebie resulted in my first five figure month. The second, on the same freebie, resulted in a run of five consecutive five figure months. BookBub turns me down all the time, though, which is discouraging. So, I rely on Freebooksy and My Romance Reads to boost my freebies. I've had one ENT ad that did well. But, usually, when I complete a series, I advertise the freebie everywhere I can - I usually spend about $600 on ads during that period. 

But I haven't promoted my first two series, at all, since July. My latest series has been a disappointment, so my books are slipping. I'm waiting for the audiobooks to come out before I start promoting again, which is why I'm writing erotica shorts next month. I figure that's the best way to keep afloat until I start the promo circuit again.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I've stayed above 10,000 since March. I'm trending toward $19,000 for this month (depending on the KU payout). I write cozy mysteries, paranormal mysteries (also cozy), young adult (finishing the final book in that series tomorrow) and I just launched a new romantic suspense pen name earlier this month. I don't write any shorts. Everything is a novel. I'm releasing one romantic suspense book a month (because those readers are voracious).


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

At the risk of being a complete idiot, what's the difference between serials and series?


----------



## Guest (Oct 31, 2014)

A serial is a lot like an episode from your favorite TV show. There's an over-arcing story, but each episode can either stand on its own or add something more to the overall plot with a cliffhanger.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

I write contemporary romance, 60-65k words. I haven't figured out the promo part yet, but I do paid ads and invest heavily in FB ads for one of my freebies. The best promo I've found is setting the first books in all three of my series free.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Lots of fantasy writers. I expected to find this thread filled with Romance and Erotica writers. Interesting stuff.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2014)

trublue said:


> I write YA fantasy romance.
> Books are about 60-90k.
> I write 3-4 books a year.
> I make 15-20k a month. When I have a new release it goes up somewhere
> ...


Right, and this is why it kills me when I read posts by authors who say they want to quit because they're not selling. What a shame. 

Winners never quit and quitters never win.


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

ElHawk said:


> I just used Rosalind's "Rolling countdown" strategy in historical fiction and it was awesome! My ad/countdown started at the end of September but I still made about $1300 more than I would otherwise have made that month, and if sales continue through most of October at even close to their current pace, October could be my best month yet. (We'll see!)
> 
> I highly recommend the rolling countdown if you have a series and want to do Select for a time!


Any link to share with that - I missed the 'rolling countdown' strategy.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Brian Spangler said:


> Any link to share with that - I missed the 'rolling countdown' strategy.


I think that's just the KDP Select Countdown option. You can set a staggered price drop, so it's .99 the first day, 1.99 the next day, etc. The advantage of a Countdown sale is the countdown text on the page and a 70% commission rate on sales under 2.99.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> But I haven't promoted my first two series, at all, since July. My latest series has been a disappointment, so my books are slipping. I'm waiting for the audiobooks to come out before I start promoting again, which is why I'm writing erotica shorts next month. I figure that's the best way to keep afloat until I start the promo circuit again.


Yep, erotica shorts will do it. 

Just don't get too excited. (Pardon the pun.) I'm late on book #3 of my zombie series because I'm so excited about the erotica sales. I've got to get back on track. I don't want the erotica to take over.


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## SA_Archer (Dec 20, 2013)

I feel your pain Michael. I've been doing urban fantasy for a few years and barely making any traction in sales despite great reviews. I think I botched the serial approach, which lost readers. I had blamed the genre, but seeing that others are flourishing with UF, I am just deflated at my personal results. I think there is no hope for that series and pen name now.

I am looking to all of these wonderful and bright rays of hope that so generously shared their stories and trying to reach past my personal disappointment. Even some of the top sellers on here have mentioned having series and pen names they gave up on. Diversifying sounds like a strategy some have used to avoid the pitfall I am in - having a ton of titles in a series that doesn't sell. 

Sent from my Zio using Tapatalk 2


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Eclectic Authoress said:


> Yep, erotica shorts will do it.
> 
> Just don't get too excited. (Pardon the pun.) I'm late on book #3 of my zombie series because I'm so excited about the erotica sales. I've got to get back on track. I don't want the erotica to take over.


AWESOME! Thanks for the encouragement! I just want to do it for one month and see how it goes. Like you, I don't want it to necessarily take over, just give me a cushion for the bad months. My bread and butter is still in contemporary romance, but it would be nice to have some steady income from a bunch of shorts. I also was thinking about doing more of a erotica serial with slightly longer installments. I think that's worked well for others, too.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

With the caveat that I've only been published for 6 months, I qualify for this thread on 50% of my publishing journey thus far .

I advertise intermittently - but I don't spend a lot on advertising. I'm in YA fantasy, 80,000 words, and I need to publish more soon or I'll keep dropping!


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

I write various flavors of romance -- paranormal, fantasy, and science fiction. And I'll echo not giving up too soon. My first year (2011...I first self-published in July) I think I made around $600 or thereabouts. It really took me having multiple series out with multiple books in them to see the sales take off.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

KelliWolfe said:


> I've been hitting $5k+ for the last year and a half with erotica shorts. I got lucky and had one series take off and that is what really did it for me. The only advertising I've ever done were a couple of bknights and genre pulse ads for my freebies over the last couple of months.


Kelli how many books do you currently have out? and would you say they are more erom than erotica?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

kalel said:


> Kelli how many books do you currently have out? and would you say they are more erom than erotica?


I've got 49 individual stories and 5 bundles (I'm a horrible, horrible slacker). My catalog is probably about 50-50 erotic romance vs. erotica. The lines tend to be blurry because almost all of my erotica tends to have significant romance elements in it.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

Technothriller and post-apocalyptic. 80-150K words per books, trending toward shorter books lately (80-100K).


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## jegarlick (Jun 23, 2013)

Wow. I am clearly writing the wrong thing! HA! (Runs to look up definition of Urban Fantasy.)


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

I do SF, mostly post-apocalyptic, starting to do some space opera. Also have an epic fantasy trilogy, but that series is rarely up to much.

My main series is about 120K per book. The other stuff runs from 50K to 210K. That was the finale of the fantasy trilogy. I.. won't write another book that long again, haha.

I try to run a big ad campaign a couple times a year, and two or three smaller ones in between. New releases in long series only do so much to bring people into the first book.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> I've been hitting $5k+ for the last year and a half with erotica shorts. I got lucky and had one series take off and that is what really did it for me. The only advertising I've ever done were a couple of bknights and genre pulse ads for my freebies over the last couple of months.


Congratulations! Yeah, these erotica shorts sell themselves if you've got a decent cover, categories and keywords.



KelliWolfe said:


> I've got 49 individual stories and 5 bundles (I'm a horrible, horrible slacker). My catalog is probably about 50-50 erotic romance vs. erotica. The lines tend to be blurry because almost all of my erotica tends to have significant romance elements in it.


Today is Oct. 31. By this time next year I plan to have approximately 96 erotica shorts published, not counting bundles. (I'm publishing two a week. That's a realistic number for me.)



anniejocoby said:


> AWESOME! Thanks for the encouragement! I just want to do it for one month and see how it goes. Like you, I don't want it to necessarily take over, just give me a cushion for the bad months. My bread and butter is still in contemporary romance, but it would be nice to have some steady income from a bunch of shorts. I also was thinking about doing more of a erotica serial with slightly longer installments. I think that's worked well for others, too.


You can do it, even if you're publishing under a secret pen name, like I am, and you're starting from zero.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> I do SF, mostly post-apocalyptic, starting to do some space opera. Also have an epic fantasy trilogy, but that series is rarely up to much.
> 
> My main series is about 120K per book. The other stuff runs from 50K to 210K. That was the finale of the fantasy trilogy. I.. won't write another book that long again, haha.
> 
> I try to run a big ad campaign a couple times a year, and two or three smaller ones in between. New releases in long series only do so much to bring people into the first book.


I get a bit of a Fallout feeling from your post-apocalyptic books. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_(video_game) Yours are the only books that give me this impression as well.


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## LA Ramsey (Feb 4, 2014)

Eclectic Authoress said:


> Congratulations! Yeah, these erotica shorts sell themselves if you've got a decent cover, categories and keywords.
> 
> Today is Oct. 31. By this time next year I plan to have approximately 96 erotica shorts published, not counting bundles. (I'm publishing two a week. That's a realistic number for me.)
> 
> You can do it, even if you're publishing under a secret pen name, like I am, and you're starting from zero.


I'm curious - do you hire an editor for your books?
I am going to try the serial / series approach - different genres. My editor is always booked way ahead - so I have my husband edit. Or do you edit your own books?
Do you create your own covers? 
Doing 2 books a week is possible for me -if I put my mind to it and the time - But the editing - oiy!


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Bookmarked this one! Amazed at how many of you write fantasy (and erotica).


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't really know what genre I write in officially. I feel that it is women's fiction, but it seems to drop into literary fiction categories a lot. I've read this thread and tried to think of what advice I could impart that hasn't already been given. While most didn't hit what they consider 'successful' until they'd released a series, my bottom line actually drastically improved before I published my series. It was on about book five-- and they were all standalones. However, since releasing the series I'd also say my sales have taken off at yet another level. One point I'd like to make about my work; all my books are set in China and they take 3-4 months each to write. Agents told me I was trying to make it in too narrow of a niche, but I (and my husband) believed in my vision and finally, it paid off.

So, the advice.

Right before the year my earnings took off, my husband and I decided we were really going to invest in my writing career. At that time, I was struggling to get out of the level it was at and into something more worthy of my time, and hopefully enough to allow me to quit my corporate job. We saw potential, but knew I needed to ramp it up. So I paid to have a few covers replaced. Then I got my website makeover. I went to VistaPrint and had professional postcards made up. I paid a graphic artist to do some cheaper graphics that I could use on Facebook to promote books (along with some cool fb banners showing all my books). I got professional author photos done. I had a logo created with my tagline and used in on all outgoing correspondence. Lastly, I hired a good editor to go back over two books that were already published, and made the decision never to put out another book without a professional editor having a go at it. (I had used a friend who was had a MBA in English and no, that does not qualify them to edit novels, as I found out later)

In other words, I began presenting myself as the successful author I wanted others to see me as. That year when we did our taxes, we got a reality jolt when we realized we'd put much more into my career than I'd made in royalties for the year. _But the next year _everything took off and I made a lot of money. Much more than I'd ever made before at any corporate job I'd worked. And yes, I turned in my notice. That was also the year that I submitted the first book of my series and Lake Union (an Amazon imprint) offered me a 3-book contract for it.

So I suppose my advice to you (in addition to writing good/compelling stories) is to always --in every opportunity whether online or IRL-- present yourself and your work as the success you plan it to be. Readers, agents, and publishers are always watching and if you look (and write) like a successful author, you need to be ready for that moment that you'll begin to be treated as a successful author.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Kay Bratt said:


> I don't really know what genre I write in officially. I feel that it is women's fiction, but it seems to drop into literary fiction categories a lot. I've read this thread and tried to think of what advice I could impart that hasn't already been given. While most didn't hit what they consider 'successful' until they'd released a series, my bottom line actually drastically improved before I published my series. It was on about book five-- and they were all standalones. However, since releasing the series I'd also say my sales have taken off at yet another level. One point I'd like to make about my work; all my books are set in China and they take 3-4 months each to write. Agents told me
> 
> 
> > I'd definitely call your books "women's fiction" or "family sagas." Let me just say that your covers are beyond awesomely beautiful!


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## Twizzlers (Feb 6, 2014)

My income took off once I started writing paranormal romance. I write serials between 15-20k. 

However, I have three more books left in the overarching series I'm doing now. When that is complete I have plans to write a 60-80k contemporary romance series. I'm kind of nervous about how it will affect my income, but it's the idea I have and the idea I want to write. 

After that I may try urban fantasy. I'm trying something different: write what i want across multiple genres and not change pen names.


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## Small Town Writer (Jun 11, 2014)

J Ryan said:


> I'm trying something different: write what i want across multiple genres and not change pen names.


This is what I want to accomplish. When you think about it, people like Stephen King and JK Rowling write in very different genres (although that may be _because_ they're Stephen King and JK Rowling...). Same goes for music. Lots of artists play around with different genres.

We'll see if it's successful for indie authors. I sure hope so! I imagine that if you're a good writer, your books will sell regardless of the genre. We'll see!


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

J Ryan said:


> My income took off once I started writing paranormal romance. I write serials between 15-20k.
> 
> However, I have three more books left in the overarching series I'm doing now. When that is complete I have plans to write a 60-80k contemporary romance series. I'm kind of nervous about how it will affect my income, but it's the idea I have and the idea I want to write.
> 
> After that I may try urban fantasy. I'm trying something different: write what i want across multiple genres and not change pen names.


Yeah, the paranormal romance seems like a hot market. I just wonder, though, if it will die off eventually? I know some authors will be "perennials" but otherwise, who knows?

I'm having a helluva time "branding" myself, too, because my fiction is all over the place. Unlike some speculative authors, I also write mystery, although my recent stories have been different. I love writing fantasy and have some a few paranormals, but don't want to get into romance. I wonder if all the paranormal stuff would sell without the added romance?


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

David Neth said:


> This is what I want to accomplish. When you think about it, people like Stephen King and JK Rowling write in very different genres (although that may be _because_ they're Stephen King and JK Rowling...). Same goes for music. Lots of artists play around with different genres.
> 
> We'll see if it's successful for indie authors. I sure hope so! I imagine that if you're a good writer, your books will sell regardless of the genre. We'll see!


I tried using a pen name for my historical mystery, then changed it back. I'm going to write in different genres, and don't plan on changing names. IF I ever got into erotica, I would, but I'm not, so it's not an issue.


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## Twizzlers (Feb 6, 2014)

I asked my Facebook fans about this and it was pretty unanimous that they wanted me to keep my name and write everything under that name. One mentioned "I become fans of authors because I read a lot of different genres. I hate having to figure out all that authors pen names."


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

J Ryan said:


> I asked my Facebook fans about this and it was pretty unanimous that they wanted me to keep my name and write everything under that name. One mentioned "I become fans of authors because I read a lot of different genres. I hate having to figure out all that authors pen names."


Woohoo! BEST news I've heard in a long time. Thanks for telling us. You don't know how much anxiety I've had because of the whole "I cannot write one genre" issue. LOL

If you think about it, all the categories, putting books in a set genre, authors writing in just one, etc. came about because of Big Publishing and Bookstores (dark ages). I was reading an intro. to a sci-fi/fantasy anthology last night that talked about how all the genres are blurring, and how incredibly hard it is to separate them anymore. Hopefully, the readers will be able to find what they want, though. That's the big issue now.


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## Lucas030 (Oct 14, 2014)

I have about 40 erotica stories and 15 non fiction books. My non fiction books are selling better because I can set a higher price (eg. I have a 5 part series in the health niche that makes about $1800/month (ebooks + cs version).My most expensive non fiction book has a price of $14.99 (cs version $19.99). It's a collection of a series and has about 300 pages. You can never price a fiction book as high as such a non fiction book. It sells well but was really really hard work and I also invested about $500 for this series/collection (hired two photographer for about 50 unique pictures).

But as I sayed ...it's hard work and takes weeks. It's easier for me to write a few short erotica stories per month (I also have some writers who are writing a few stories per month for me) and make money from the mass of books. I also plan to publish 100 more short stories next year (it's reachable if you have 3 good ghostwriters and they can deliver 3 books/month = 9 books/month =108 books/year. With this strategy I can increase my income but also have the time to create new non fiction books (with premium quality because to sell it more expensive).

So for the fast money and/or short term success the fiction books are good. But for the long term non fiction is better for me because I can build any product around my non fiction niche (smartphone apps, websites, payed courses, videos and even physical products). I think it's important to have different income sources because with this strategy you are more safe for the future. And you can't build up such a business around with fiction books.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

LA Ramsey said:


> I'm curious - do you hire an editor for your books?
> I am going to try the serial / series approach - different genres. My editor is always booked way ahead - so I have my husband edit. Or do you edit your own books?
> Do you create your own covers?
> Doing 2 books a week is possible for me -if I put my mind to it and the time - But the editing - oiy!


I am no where near doing this full time, but I will get there. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I make my own covers. Honestly it's not worth shelling out $400+ for a cover. If you look at the top bestsellers MOST are not highly detailed. They are just a play on letters with a figure and a filter. Piece of cake!

I am doing my own editing now. I was paying someone anywhere from $150 to 350 per book. But again it takes forever to get that back. I make the odd mistake here or there but generally I don't find anyone scolding me.

So add that up. $350 + 400 per book and you have now got to sell TONS of books JUST to make back $750 on a book.

No thanks.

I am doing this now with minimal cost. I grabbed up a deal online which was $99 for 100 images from depositphotos. So I am all set for photos for the next 100 books. That's my total cost right there.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

For what it's worth, I've found there is often a correlation between people who say "I'm not making a living" and people who say "I do my own covers and editing"...

Making back 750 on a book when that book actually sells copies is fairly easy.  It helps to get out of the bumping along the bottom, any sale is a good enough mindset. If you want to make a living, you need to write and produce books that will sell thousands instead of tens of copies. Paying for professional help like covers and editing can make a huge difference.  Without those things, it's going to be much, much tougher to get to 5k+ a month income.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

kalel said:


> I am no where near doing this full time, but I will get there. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> I make my own covers. Honestly it's not worth shelling out $400+ for a cover. If you look at the top bestsellers MOST are not highly detailed. They are just a play on letters with a figure and a filter. Piece of cake!
> 
> ...


While I believe it's possible for someone skilled with Photoshop or other programs to do their own covers (and I do mean skilled), it is impossible to edit your own work. You know how things are supposed to read, not how they do. People need other people to read their work. I have three different people, and all are skilled. I write for a living. I edit for a living. I cannot edit my own work. I wouldn't even try.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

YodaRead said:


> While I believe it's possible for someone skilled with Photoshop or other programs to do their own covers (and I do mean skilled), it is impossible to edit your own work. You know how things are supposed to read, not how they do. People need other people to read their work. I have three different people, and all are skilled. I write for a living. I edit for a living. I cannot edit my own work. I wouldn't even try.


You can probably edit for grammar and punctuation, but I believe it's very difficult to edit for plot consistencies and repetition. That stuff is hard to see and needs betas or an editor to find.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

YodaRead said:


> While I believe it's possible for someone skilled with Photoshop or other programs to do their own covers (and I do mean skilled), it is impossible to edit your own work. You know how things are supposed to read, not how they do. People need other people to read their work. I have three different people, and all are skilled. I write for a living. I edit for a living. I cannot edit my own work. I wouldn't even try.


I think it's all about finding the proper tools and putting in the time to learn to mitigate your own deficiencies. At first? No. You need to be edited by professionals to know what to look for and how to change things, because there are a lot of things that you are simply ignorant about. But I do think it's possible. And in many cases, paying for editing simply doesn't make economic sense, because readers only really notice usage errors, and paying one person to edit your book will not rid it entirely of typos.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Jack; said:


> Is that in USD?
> 
> Wouldn't you make more at 9.99?
> 
> ...


Jack, it depends on how many images are in the book. Delivery charges are $0.15 per MB, but only if you are getting the 70% royalty. Of course, it takes 11mb of images and text for the difference in this specific case. Lucas did say it was a series, but it's still only 300 pages, so that takes a lot of pics or a lot of high def pics, or maybe even some audio embedded (but he didn't say enhanced ebook).


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## Twizzlers (Feb 6, 2014)

ã&#8230;ˆã&#8230;ˆ said:


> For what it's worth, I've found there is often a correlation between people who say "I'm not making a living" and people who say "I do my own covers and editing"...
> 
> Making back 750 on a book when that book actually sells copies is fairly easy. It helps to get out of the bumping along the bottom, any sale is a good enough mindset. If you want to make a living, you need to write and produce books that will sell thousands instead of tens of copies. Paying for professional help like covers and editing can make a huge difference. Without those things, it's going to be much, much tougher to get to 5k+ a month income.


I totally agree with that. I made less than $100 a month when I tried to do my own covers and proofing.

Now I pay $240 for three covers from my cover artist (since my serials are all three parters) and around .003 a word for proofreading/light copy editing from my person. Each book costs around $140 for me to produce, but that's because they're so short. 
When I move on to longer works each book is going to cost me close to $400-$500. But it's been totally worth it so far.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I think the fear of self-editing has been what has kept me at a low level for so long. In two months, I just jumped from $1000 a month, spending half of that on editing, and $3000 and spending about a hundred bunks on editing. I've always made my own covers. 

I can produce far more work than I can afford to have edited. Doing it myself saves me a tremendous amount of time and money. YMWV. Do what works for you.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Kalypsō said:


> I can produce far more work than I can afford to have edited. Doing it myself saves me a tremendous amount of time and money. YMWV. Do what works for you.


Yeah, same here. I have the advantage that I have a professional background in graphics, an art degree, proofreading, publication design, editing. Gee, what other job would be SO perfect for me than self-publishing? ;-)


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> I think the fear of self-editing has been what has kept me at a low level for so long. In two months, I just jumped from $1000 a month, spending half of that on editing, and $3000 and spending about a hundred bunks on editing. I've always made my own covers.
> 
> I can produce far more work than I can afford to have edited. Doing it myself saves me a tremendous amount of time and money. YMWV. Do what works for you.


And you're still writing all those classy books...


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> And you're still writing all those classy books...


  

Just as an aside. The book that I wrote using all the kboards conventional wisdom: full length novel, no cliffhanger, written "from the heart," beta readers, proofreaders, ARC readers, rewritten to please, etc. is probably my worst selling title. I think all that over-thinking and trying to be little miss goody two shoes created something *BORING*. This book also constantly gets returned, more than ANY other title I've EVER written. I have 5000 word, self edited, porn that sells better, and gets returned less, than this novel that took me three-four months of my life to produce. I'm actually thinking of unpublishing it because it dilutes my brand.

Good luck all.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Just as an aside. The book that I wrote using all the kboards conventional wisdom: full length novel, no cliffhanger, written "from the heart," beta readers, proofreaders, ARC readers, rewritten to please, etc. is probably my worst selling title. I think all that over-thinking and trying to be little miss goody two shoes created something *BORING*. This book also constantly gets returned, more than ANY other title I've EVER written. I have 5000 word, self edited, porn that sells better, and gets returned less, than this novel that took me three-four months of my life to produce. I'm actually thinking of unpublishing it because it dilutes my brand.
> 
> Good luck all.


Sex sells. That's about all that can be said


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Sex sells. That's about all that can be said


That's probably the problem with this novel. I toned down the sex big time. I wanted it to be more "realistic" and more "true to the characters." I should have had them doing it in the first fifty pages. People like dirty and they like things that scare them. They like "girl gets forced into prostitution by billionaire" or "girl gets kidnapped by biker gang" stories. They don't like sweet, sane, love stories between two emotionally stable people. They really don't. It's boring. Readers like damage and drama. And sex.

No offense to anyone writing "sweet, sane love stories between two emotionally stable people." You've got the corner on that market. Crazy drama works way better for me.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> That's probably the problem with this novel. I toned down the sex big time. I wanted it to be more "realistic" and more "true to the characters." I should have had them doing it in the first fifty pages. People like dirty and they like things that scare them. They like "girl gets forced into prostitution by billionaire" or "girl gets kidnapped by biker gang" stories. They don't like sweet, sane, love stories between two emotionally stable people. They really don't. It's boring. Readers like damage and drama. And sex.
> 
> No offense to anyone writing "sweet, sane love stories between two emotionally stable people." You've got the corner on that market. Crazy drama works way better for me.


They do have A LOT of the sweet romances, make no mistake. It's just MUCH harder to market, especially without paid ads and promotions etc.

Cozy romances, drama billionaire stories, the notebook type of crap.

It's easy to market "PEOPLE GET *****ED" to people who are thinking "I want to read about someone getting ******ed!"


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> They do have A LOT of the sweet romances, make no mistake. It's just MUCH harder to market, especially without paid ads and promotions etc.
> 
> Cozy romances, drama billionaire stories, the notebook type of crap.
> 
> It's easy to market "PEOPLE GET [expletive]ED" to people who are thinking "I want to read about someone getting [expletive]ed!"


True words. Anything where the girl get's Stockholm syndrome and get's [expletive]ed and mind [expletive]ed is a pretty sure bet.

I forgot "girl becomes semi dubcon broodmare of werewolf pack." That's a big one too. 

I want to add that I'm not saying this in a cynical or disparaging way. My eyes just opened up is all. I love writing and I love making money. So now I'm writing what makes money and loving every minute. What I'm cynical about is advice that pushes people into an itty bitty corner so the advice givers can feel good about themselves and self-publishing.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> True words. Anything where the girl get's Stockholm syndrome and get's [expletive]ed and mind [expletive]ed is a pretty sure bet.
> 
> I forgot "girl becomes semi dubcon broodmare of werewolf pack." That's a big one too.
> 
> I want to add that I'm not saying this in a cynical or disparaging way. My eyes just opened up is all. I love writing and I love making money. So now I'm writing what makes money and loving every minute. What I'm cynical about is advice that pushes people into an itty bitty corner so the advice givers can feel good about themselves and self-publishing.


Yep. People get upset by the truth. And the words "write what you love!" are bantered around too often. That's why writers have such low/no incomes. And then the masses get upset when you tell them to write what actually makes money. You see how defensive/bitter people get about it on here as well 

You can write what you love, of course. Just make sure you put in that job application for McDonald's first!


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Yep. People get upset by the truth. And the words "write what you love!" are bantered around too often. That's why writers have such low/no incomes. And then the masses get upset when you tell them to write what actually makes money. You see how defensive/bitter people get about it on here as well
> 
> You can write what you love, of course. Just make sure you put in that job application for McDonald's first!


Write what u love is great advice...as long as there r readers who love the genre too. Poo pooing it seems a bit silly. Yes u can write smut and make lots of money but let's face it there is a reason u use pen names. The money helps obviously but don't tell me u wouldn't rather write something u can actually brag to people at parties abt (or tell ur mom abt). Sometimes u don't know there is an audience until u write it and put it out there. I mean there is someone here who only writes Jane Austen fiction. I had no idea such a thing even existed. Joe nobody writes prepper fiction. I didn't even know that was a genre either! But they wrote what they love and whoa there is an audience. Go figure.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> You can write what you love, of course. Just make sure you put in that job application for McDonald's first!


That's going to be pretty offensive to a lot of people who do write what they love and make a decent living at it, no dubcon werewolf broodmares required. Just sayin'.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> That's going to be pretty offensive to a lot of people who do write what they love and make a decent living at it, no dubcon werewolf broodmares required. Just sayin'.


It isn't an insult, I think it just has a lot more to do with whether you approach this from the point of view of an artist or of someone who treats it as a business. As an artist "I'm going to do what I love whether there's a market and I never sell a single copy because it's my *art*." Treating writing as a business means you're willing to make compromises in your work to cater to the market so you actually sell. Or skip writing something that you really want to because you know that there's no market for it and it's a total waste of time and you've got bills to pay.

Are there some lucky people who just sit down and write WTF ever they want and make money? Sure. But there are a lot more people who study the market and write what people want to read and make a lot *more* money. Some of us would much rather put our faith in tried and true methods of writing to the market rather than just hoping to get lucky. Maybe I'm not an "artist," but I'm making more money doing what I love - writing - than most people do in their EDJs.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

What if you love dubcon werewolf broodmares?

I totally agree with Kelli. I don't give a crap about being an "artist" if I'm writing for a living. As far as telling my mom about what I write? My family doesn't care what I write, be it "from the heart" or whatever. They'll never read it, and chasing that little need for approval will get you nowhere fast. You know what is impressive, "Guess who's not on welfare!!!!"


I have a sister who literally has a PhD in English. I told her she could make money writing erotica. But no... She's an artist! She couldn't possibly lower herself to self-publish, let alone trashy erotica. She'd rather live on my oldest sister's couch. She writes poetry for literary journals. I think she maybe gets a free copy.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Jj2011 said:


> Write what u love is great advice...as long as there r readers who love the genre too. Poo pooing it seems a bit silly. Yes u can write smut and make lots of money but let's face it there is a reason u use pen names. The money helps obviously but don't tell me u wouldn't rather write something u can actually brag to people at parties abt (or tell ur mom abt). Sometimes u don't know there is an audience until u write it and put it out there. I mean there is someone here who only writes Jane Austen fiction. I had no idea such a thing even existed. Joe nobody writes prepper fiction. I didn't even know that was a genre either! But they wrote what they love and whoa there is an audience. Go figure.




I tell EVERYONE to write erotica! The first person I told, was in fact, my own mother!

And if you want a little insider info... EVERY TYPE OF WRITING GETS BORING! You think all those mystery/romance writers look forward to churning out book after book? They follow the same formula over and over... You might think it's great to start with, but keep going long enough and it just becomes another job -- like anything else.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> I totally agree with Kelli. I don't give a crap about being an "artist" if I'm writing for a living. As far as telling my mom about what I write? My family doesn't care what I write, be it "from the heart" or whatever. They'll never read it, and chasing that little need for approval will get you nowhere fast. You know what is impressive, "Guess who's not on welfare!!!!"


Damned right. Approval comes in the form of those fat direct deposits into your bank account from Amazon every month, and you can look at that bank statement and say "I did this."


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> What if you love dubcon werewolf broodmares?
> 
> I totally agree with Kelli. I don't give a crap about being an "artist" if I'm writing for a living. As far as telling my mom about what I write? My family doesn't care what I write, be it "from the heart" or whatever. They'll never read it, and chasing that little need for approval will get you nowhere fast. You know what is impressive, "Guess who's not on welfare!!!!"
> 
> I have a sister who literally has a PhD in English. I told her she could make money writing erotica. But no... She's an artist! She couldn't possibly lower herself to self-publish, let alone trashy erotica. She'd rather live on my oldest sister's couch. She writes poetry for literary journals. I think she maybe gets a free copy.


It's funny how people view writing as some mystical art that must flow from the heart... lest your soul be ripped from your body!

Writing is a job, plain and simple. Being a baker is a job. Being a singer is a job. Being a pro basketball player is a job.

Are you going to love it every day? Hell no! Are you going to want to practice all the time? Probably not! But that's the name of the game. You pick the torture you can stand, and then you make money at it.

If you'd rather go work a 9-5 (or welfare...) because you can't lower yourself to write X... more power to you! The sheer depth of delusion involved with 'writers' is laughable...


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> It's funny how people view writing as some mystical art that must flow from the heart... lest your soul be ripped from your body!
> 
> Writing is a job, plain and simple. Being a baker is a job. Being a singer is a job. Being a pro basketball player is a job.
> 
> ...


You wrote ten full length novels "from your heart" and you still only make $100 a month? Well, write another one. That's the solution. And make sure you spend $1000 on it to make sure it's professional!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm not bored. I make a very good living writing fiction. I don't write dub-con erotica (or sex at all)... 

I do have professionals handle my cover art and editing, however. It's worth it. If my books couldn't earn back what I spend on them, I'd write different books that could.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> I totally agree with Kelli. I don't give a crap about being an "artist" if I'm writing for a living. As far as telling my mom about what I write? My family doesn't care what I write, be it "from the heart" or whatever. They'll never read it, and chasing that little need for approval will get you nowhere fast. You know what is impressive, "Guess who's not on welfare!!!!"


I'm not going to get into a pissing competition over "writing what you love=starving on the streets v. writing to market=making $$$$$". All I'll say is that it doesn't have to be either/or.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> I'm not going to get into a p*ss ing competition over "writing what you love=starving on the streets v. writing to market=making $$$$$". All I'll say is that it doesn't have to be either/or.


You know, the funny thing is, once I let go of writing "what I love" and trying to be what I was told I should be. I'm enjoying my work sooo much more. I wrote a little erotica piece to a pretty niche market yesterday. It ended up on three best sellers lists as soon as it got rank. Now, it isn't Catcher in the Rye, but it was fun. There was no commitment, and I get to write as many different things as I want. I'm having so much MORE fun now, oddly.


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

"The lady doth protests too much, methinks."


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Jj2011 said:


> "The lady doth protests too much, methinks."


You should see the cover I made. It's sooo pretty. You can doubt I'm having more fun because I'm saying I'm having more fun, but that doesn't really change anything.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> You know, the funny thing is, once I let go of writing "what I love" and trying to be what I was told I should be. I'm enjoying my work sooo much more. I wrote a little erotica piece to a pretty niche market yesterday. It ended up on three best sellers lists as soon as it got rank. Now, it isn't Catcher in the Rye, but it was fun. There was no commitment, and I get to write as many different things as I want. I'm having so much MORE fun now, oddly.


So presumably you are writing what you love. Who said you had to write Catcher in the Rye?


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> So presumably you are writing what you love. Who said you had to write Catcher in the Rye?


Because ideally, I'd write Catcher In The Rye or On The Road. That's my "I'm a great writer" standard. lol. 

Actually, you might be right. Maybe "what I love" is far broader than my "I'm a great writer" field of dreams would allow. So, yay me.


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

You could get lucky making money from writing what you love and then six books later ... it's another job like any other. And maybe you think you might love something else more. But want to keep making a living.

Not that I speak from experience and would rather do anything other than open my wip right now. Nothing like that!


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

So I suppose my advice to you (in addition to writing good/compelling stories) is to always --in every opportunity whether online or IRL-- present yourself and your work as the success you plan it to be. Readers, agents, and publishers are always watching and if you look (and write) like a successful author, you need to be ready for that moment that you'll begin to be treated as a successful author. 
[/quote]

And may I interrupt for a moment to say your last four covers are gorgeous!


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

bobbic said:


> I'd definitely call your books "women's fiction" or "family sagas." Let me just say that your covers are beyond awesomely beautiful!





metwo said:


> And may I interrupt for a moment to say your last four covers are gorgeous!


Thank you, Bobbi and Metwo. Those covers were commissioned by Lake Union and they worked directly with their own designers. As authors, we are given questionnaires about our vision for the cover of the books, yet these were totally off the mark for what I had envisioned/suggested. But in a good way! I can take no credit--and give it all to Amazon Publishing and their design team.


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## Mylius Fox (Jun 2, 2014)

Kay Bratt said:


> Thank you, Bobbi and Metwo. Those covers were commissioned by Lake Union and they worked directly with their own designers.


The cover to The Bridge was so beautifully compelling that I just _had_ to click it, and seeing it set to $0.00 resulted in another click.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Mylius Fox said:


> The cover to The Bridge was so beautifully compelling that I just _had_ to click it, and seeing it set to $0.00 resulted in another click.


Thanks so much! I hope you enjoy it. And that cover was done by James at http://goonwrite.com/. He's another awesome designer 'round these parts.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Lucas030 said:


> But for the long term non fiction is better for me because I can build any product around my non fiction niche (smartphone apps, websites, payed courses, videos and even physical products). I think it's important to have different income sources because with this strategy you are more safe for the future. And you can't build up such a business around with fiction books.


In a past life I wrote nothing but non-fiction. I got so burned out, though, because I had to produce two 300-pg. books in 6 months with photos. They were how-tos requiring hours of experiments, project design, etc. After that, I got deathly ill and since it came at the same time that the market for those types of books went dead, I just quit. After a few years, I turned to fiction, which was always my love.

Now, I have one NF booklet that feeds from a garden blog I've written for years and it sells off and on. I often have ideas for further NF books, but am stubborn about it and afraid to try to do both. I'm not sure my fiction readers care, but I have enough problems focusing as is.

I have a feeling I could make more $$ by doing the NF niche stuff, but wouldn't be having nearly as much fun.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'll suggest again that, if anyone wants to know what good-selling authors write, they go look at the "KB Authors" section of this site (there's a link up there in the header). I think you'll see lots of folks in the top brackets who are writing things other than erotica, and I will venture to guess that they're mostly writing what they enjoy.

Personally, I've been working since I was 9, and I'm 56 now. I've been doing this job for almost exactly 3 years. It isn't a job like any other. This is a job absolutely and completely unlike any other, and yes, I write what I love. I don't think I'd be successful any other way. I think I sell because I touch some emotions and give people an enjoyable experience--because first, I had my own enjoyable experience in writing the story and touched my own emotions. That's the only real barometer I have. If I laugh, if I choke up, if I steam up, if my heart races with suspense, if my heart is touched--the book works for me. And I've found that, perhaps because I have conventional taste, who knows, what works for me generally works for my readers as well. 

I don't judge anybody for writing things they don't enjoy for the money. But I don't think you should assume that mystery and romance authors don't enjoy what they write. I don't write cookie-cutter books. I write (well, I try to write) about real people struggling with real-life issues. There's a formula in that I give them a happy ending and they end up together, but that allows for a lot of latitude for different stories, different issues, different characters, and even different subgenres within romance. 

(And my people who love each other are never mean to each other. I couldn't write a hero I wouldn't personally want to marry. That's worked out just fine too.)


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

Kay Bratt said:


> cover was done by James at http://goonwrite.com/. He's another awesome designer 'round these parts.


Bookmarked him. I really like his work.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I happen to enjoy writing my cozy mysteries and romantic suspense books a great deal. I thought I would like young adult and ended up hating it. I have the main writing on the last two books in my young adult series done. I probably won't go back to young adult. So, no, writing those final two books (bringing the total up to five) was not exactly fun. I did not want to be known as the author who abandoned a series and didn't finish it, though, so I finished it. I also happen to make great money writing the books -- and I enjoy writing them. I think you can both enjoy the craft and make money.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> It's funny how people view writing as some mystical art that must flow from the heart... lest your soul be ripped from your body!
> 
> Writing is a job, plain and simple. Being a baker is a job. Being a singer is a job. Being a pro basketball player is a job.
> 
> ...


Disagree.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Jack; said:


> In that you'll love it every day? Even the actual writing? Even the editing?


Well, I do. Editing and rewrites are my favorite part, but I love it all. I work seven days a week because I love it.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I love writing more when I make money. If something sells, suddenly I love it! Seriously, it makes it much more fun for me. And honestly, the stuff that I'm seeing sell for me is pretty easy to write. They are fun stories. It really is more fun to take yourself less seriously. At least it is for me. If things remain as they are, I could make up to four grand this month.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I actually loved it best during the 10 months I wrote my first 3 books, before I published, because no pressure. But I didn't start doing this for any reason but that I enjoyed it. The money is a bonus. But I also don't see myself as any great tortured genius. I write fun stories for escape. Escape for me, escape for readers.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I suppose everyone has their own reasons to write. And it's all good. Nobody has to live anybody else's life or follow anybody else's path, and nobody can see into anybody else's heart.


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

I love it too, Ros. I'd do it even if there was no prospect of ever making a sale, completely straight up about that. It's just gravy that others seem to like what I love to do.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I love writing, but I also love shoes and food and stuff like that. lol. I'm a stay at home mom and I live on my husband's poverty wages from his small business. Not being able to afford important things for my daughter is really hard. So money makes me giddy. It changes my life. Even a few grand a month changes my life. It makes a HUGE difference. I've been poor for a long time and I'm exhausted. I live in a sketchy neighborhood in St. Louis. I don't want to keep living like this. So, yeah. I love writing. I got a degree in creative writing. But I NEED money. I need to be able to make money while being at home. A regular job isn't even an option. 

I feel so good about everything that is happening for me, I'm starting to think it's time for me to stop being snarky on the internet. I really want to keep feeling good all the time. There's a lot of negativity online. Maybe it's time to start finding real life associates who I can trust to not one star bomb me when I make dumb jokes or get excited about my success. 

I really do love kboards and forums and all, but gosh, I just want to feel good. I want to be happy. I want people to be nice to me and accept me for who I am. Oh well. LOL.   kisses


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Jack; said:


> You should check out Tim Ferriss, he manages to stay positive despite some of the crap he gets. Although, on his podcast he's said he's had some periods where he felt lost and like he didn't even want to get out of bed


Tim Ferriss is awesome. He's really one of my heroes. Thanks for the heads up. I was playing WOW needing something to listen to.


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## MQ (Jan 5, 2011)

I found this thread to be _highly_ inspirational! I want to thank everyone for sharing their results!

I would recommend those struggling (I'm also in that group) to bookmark it and use it as motivation 

Thanks again, guys!


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## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

I write in many genres including historical, children's, mystery, fantasy, sci-fi, and technical. Whew!

Robert Stanek


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I'll suggest again that, if anyone wants to know what good-selling authors write, they go look at the "KB Authors" section of this site (there's a link up there in the header). I think you'll see lots of folks in the top brackets who are writing things other than erotica, and I will venture to guess that they're mostly writing what they enjoy.
> 
> Personally, I've been working since I was 9, and I'm 56 now. I've been doing this job for almost exactly 3 years. It isn't a job like any other. This is a job absolutely and completely unlike any other, and yes, I write what I love. I don't think I'd be successful any other way. I think I sell because I touch some emotions and give people an enjoyable experience--because first, I had my own enjoyable experience in writing the story and touched my own emotions. That's the only real barometer I have. If I laugh, if I choke up, if I steam up, if my heart races with suspense, if my heart is touched--the book works for me. And I've found that, perhaps because I have conventional taste, who knows, what works for me generally works for my readers as well.
> 
> ...


Rosalind, I just have to say that you are one of the few people I see talking sense when talking about romance (I include myself in the people who talk nonsense).

I understand writing to market or trying to write a book that is commercial. But you can write from the heart and write to market at once. I love romance, but I don't love all romance--it's a huge genre--and I don't see why I'd write something I wouldn't read.

Why in the world would you write something you hate for money? There are better, easier ways to make money.

Don't get me wrong, I like money, and I'd like to make a living from my writing one day. But that's because I love writing and I can't imagine being happy not writing from the heart.

It frustrates me sometimes, both the writing part and the marketing/business part, but I love writing. My life feels empty when I'm not writing.

And, as a reader, I can tell when an author is phoning it in. I hate those books.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Rosalind, I just have to say that you are one of the few people I see talking sense when talking about romance (I include myself in the people who talk nonsense).
> 
> I understand writing to market or trying to write a book that is commercial. But you can write from the heart and write to market at once. I love romance, but I don't love all romance--it's a huge genre--and I don't see why I'd write something I wouldn't read.
> 
> ...


And Rosalind is great and wonderful. She's also a HUGE rarity. I have nothing but respect for her cranking out books she loves to write and making huge amounts of money while doing it.

But your own story is the more common one... The "I'd like to" or "I'd love to!" crowd. It's easy to talk about how easy and wonderful writing would be if you COULD do it for a living. Get to that point, then come back and let's have a chat.

The majority of 'writers' eventually give up and get a 'real job' while perhaps continuing to scribble on the side. At the end of the day, it comes down to your own preference. Would you rather write SOMETHING for money -- or work a 'normal' job and peck away at the keys in your spare time, most likely never seeing any real money from it.

I'm a potboiler author and I make no bones about it!

I enjoy the lifestyle it affords me WAAAAY more than actual stories I write (most of which I dislike  ). Working from home, no commute, no boss, etc.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> And Rosalind is great and wonderful. She's also a HUGE rarity. I have nothing but respect for her cranking out books she loves to write and making huge amounts of money while doing it.
> 
> But your own story is the more common one... The "I'd like to" or "I'd love to!" crowd. It's easy to talk about how easy and wonderful writing would be if you COULD do it for a living. Get to that point, then come back and let's have a chat.
> 
> ...


I think I'm different because, before I started writing, I had pretty much a dream job from most people's standpoints. I was working in a study in the tower of a big house in Auckland, New Zealand, with a window seat looking out on the beach, as a marketing contractor, setting my own hours and doing a job that wasn't hard for me. Except I didn't enjoy that job and was kinda dead inside.

And then I started writing, and I was alive. I felt such joy, I truly thought maybe I was bipolar and in the manic phase! I'd been through major depression due to a life event, really down in the black pit of life, for a few years, just coming out of it. That gave me the strength to say, I don't want to live my life doing something less than what I love anymore. It also gave me the strength to be honest and vulnerable in my writing in a way I could never have been before. I'm not sure I could even have recognized those emotions in the past, let alone written them in a way that would resonate with others.

So, in a way, writing is the gift that that greatest loss of my life has given me. As frightening as it is to take risks with that, to venture into new subgenres and styles as I'm doing now, to push past "what's worked" and see "what else can work," where can I take this thing--If I don't do that, if I give less than my all, it's like I'm throwing away the one bright shining good that came out of that terrible time.

Another thing that influenced me was writing my third book while I was very, and increasingly, ill. I finished the book the day before I went into the hospital for major surgery that would determine, literally, whether I lived or died--and dying was a very real possibility. When I got the news, my very second thought (after my kids) was, "I don't want to die without publishing my books." That experience too has made me see that for me, writing the books of my heart really mattered most.

BUT: I had a husband who made enough (if barely) for me not to earn for a while--and who had enough generosity to encourage me to go for it. I can afford to take those risks. It's still scary, don't get me wrong, but I do have a financial cushion. That makes a big difference, and I recognize that. And yet--this is my one and only life. I've worked so hard during most of it. I just can't stand not to spend these however-many years I have left working hard at what I love. That it pays well is a huge bonus. That some other people enjoy reading what I write is a bigger one, and still such a thrill.

Everyone does what they have to do, and I'm not judging. I am not. You haven't lived my life, and I haven't lived yours. We only walk in our own shoes. I'm just sharing my own experience, in case it's helpful to anybody else. My best wishes to everyone that you find the path that works for you.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Writing what you love is cool, and making a living from it is even more cool.

I've been a software developer, technical writer, non-fiction writer, and fiction writer. Of all those jobs, I like fiction writing best. If my choice is to go back to working for someone else doing stuff I don't want to do, or writing fiction that I don't really like so I can earn more money, I'll take the latter. Fortunately, I haven't had to make that choice yet. I'm doing okay writing stuff that I enjoy.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> And Rosalind is great and wonderful. She's also a HUGE rarity. I have nothing but respect for her cranking out books she loves to write and making huge amounts of money while doing it.
> 
> But your own story is the more common one... The "I'd like to" or "I'd love to!" crowd. It's easy to talk about how easy and wonderful writing would be if you COULD do it for a living. Get to that point, then come back and let's have a chat.
> 
> ...


Well, I've only published one book. So I don't expect to be making a living at this point. I don't expect to make a living until I've been at this for several years.

In fact, I'd rather have a 9-5 and write stuff that moves me.

I worked a job where I wrote SOMETHING and that something was crappy how to articles. I only had to work 20-25 hours a week and I made $600 a week (not big bucks where I live, but not bad for a recent college grad). It was the worst job I've ever had, even worse than working as a server.

Yes, some people write mostly for the money. But most of them don't hate what they write. Even erotica writers. Many love erotica (even if they find the grind tedious. All writing is tedious on occasion).

There's room for a compromise between sell out and true artist.

If you're happy writing stuff you dislike, good for you. But if you're really that happy, why are you always here criticizing people who believe writing is an art form?

Do what works for you. All jobs have pros and cons, and everyone is in a different financial situation.

Writing is my passion. It's my reason to live. Forcing myself to write something I hate kills my passion and, honestly, I get so depressed I can barely get out of bed.

edit: I'm also really sick of the suggestion that erotica can never be artistic or that erotica writers must hate what they do. I'm planning on writing a straight erotic romance (or even erotica) series because I enjoy writing about passion, love, and sex. It's part that I enjoy it and part that I know it's marketable. It's not all or nothing.


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> I love writing more when I make money. If something sells, suddenly I love it! Seriously, it makes it much more fun for me. And honestly, the stuff that I'm seeing sell for me is pretty easy to write. They are fun stories. It really is more fun to take yourself less seriously. At least it is for me. If things remain as they are, I could make up to four grand this month.


Wait 4 grand? Huh the way u guys were talking I was under the impression u were making a lot of money. Let me guess most of that is borrows on 5k stories? Sorry but the way u guys were going on and on I thought we were talking serious money here. /shrug


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Jj2011 said:


> Wait 4 grand? Huh the way u guys were talking I was under the impression u were making a lot of money. Let me guess most of that is borrows on 5k stories? Sorry but the way u guys were going on and on I thought we were talking serious money here. /shrug


Oh. I made one grand in September. So yeah.... I'm not DD. DirtiestDevil makes much more than I do. I just started writing erotica and took some of DD's advice. It worked. Clearly.

I like what I write. I just stopped writing what I "want." Maybe those cool scifi ideas will get some attention in the future, but for now, I'm writing what the market wants. I'm still having fun. More fun, actually. There is like zero stress because I'm not super attached to anything I'm writing. I'm just writing it and having a good time. I don't hate what I write. In fact, I just wrote a really cool erotica story as part of a short series. It probably would look like a no go, but in the market I'm in, I knew it would sell. I liked it a lot. It wasn't something that my more "artistic" mind would think would be "good." But it was still super fun. And it's selling really nicely for me. So. I'm happy. Really happy. What I'm writing now is far more fun than writing crappy articles or internet content.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

DRMarvello said:


> Writing what you love is cool, and making a living from it is even more cool.
> 
> I've been a software developer, technical writer, non-fiction writer, and fiction writer. Of all those jobs, I like fiction writing best. If my choice is to go back to working for someone else doing stuff I don't want to do, or writing fiction that I don't really like so I can earn more money, I'll take the latter. Fortunately, I haven't had to make that choice yet. I'm doing okay writing stuff that I enjoy.


If I may be so bold, may I inquire about your job as a software developer? I'm currently studying to pursue this same career but I have my doubts


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## LA Ramsey (Feb 4, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Oh. I made one grand in September. So yeah.... I'm not DD. DirtiestDevil makes much more than I do. I just started writing erotica and took some of DD's advice. It worked. Clearly.
> 
> I like what I write. I just stopped writing what I "want." Maybe those cool scifi ideas will get some attention in the future, but for now, I'm writing what the market wants. I'm still having fun. More fun, actually. There is like zero stress because I'm not super attached to anything I'm writing. I'm just writing it and having a good time. I don't hate what I write. In fact, I just wrote a really cool erotica story as part of a short series. It probably would look like a no go, but in the market I'm in, I knew it would sell. I liked it a lot. It wasn't something that my more "artistic" mind would think would be "good." But it was still super fun. And it's selling really nicely for me. So. I'm happy. Really happy. What I'm writing now is far more fun than writing crappy articles or internet content.


I'm with you! I'm sick and tired of not making it doing what I love. So I'm going to readjust and try something different. Your thoughts above are spot on for me as well. Ive started the "Become a full time author" challenge. I'm working on the smaller series books - doing 1 to 2 a week (this is my first week). My first series probably isn't what the market wants - but my second one will be. Thank you for sharing your results/success path with us. I need to look up DD - he inspires me too!


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

von19 said:


> If I may be so bold, may I inquire about your job as a software developer? I'm currently studying to pursue this same career but I have my doubts


I'm not sure what kind of info you are looking for, but I should say that I was a happy programming camper for over 20 years. I wrote database applications for mainframes, minicomputers, PC's and the Web, and at times it was a lot of fun. Every job has had its good moments and bad moments, and the same has been true of writing. I'm just ready to leave my programming career behind now and see how far I can take my writing career.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Oh. I made one grand in September. So yeah.... I'm not DD. DirtiestDevil makes much more than I do. I just started writing erotica and took some of DD's advice. It worked. Clearly.
> 
> I like what I write. I just stopped writing what I "want." Maybe those cool scifi ideas will get some attention in the future, but for now, I'm writing what the market wants. I'm still having fun. More fun, actually. There is like zero stress because I'm not super attached to anything I'm writing. I'm just writing it and having a good time. I don't hate what I write. In fact, I just wrote a really cool erotica story as part of a short series. It probably would look like a no go, but in the market I'm in, I knew it would sell. I liked it a lot. It wasn't something that my more "artistic" mind would think would be "good." But it was still super fun. And it's selling really nicely for me. So. I'm happy. Really happy. What I'm writing now is far more fun than writing crappy articles or internet content.


This is what I mean. Erotica isn't your first choice, but you like what you write. There's no reason why you can't be marketable and like what you write.

You are certainly not writing something you hate. Few people can do that in the long term.


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Oh. I made one grand in September. So yeah.... I'm not DD. DirtiestDevil makes much more than I do. I just started writing erotica and took some of DD's advice. It worked. Clearly.
> 
> I like what I write. I just stopped writing what I "want." Maybe those cool scifi ideas will get some attention in the future, but for now, I'm writing what the market wants. I'm still having fun. More fun, actually. There is like zero stress because I'm not super attached to anything I'm writing. I'm just writing it and having a good time. I don't hate what I write. In fact, I just wrote a really cool erotica story as part of a short series. It probably would look like a no go, but in the market I'm in, I knew it would sell. I liked it a lot. It wasn't something that my more "artistic" mind would think would be "good." But it was still super fun. And it's selling really nicely for me. So. I'm happy. Really happy. What I'm writing now is far more fun than writing crappy articles or internet content.


Well that's great. It's good to be happy. But u gotta know that the ku "everyone gets paid the same" bonanza isn't going to last. Sooner or later once Amazon has enough writers locked in they will change the terms to favor longer works. I think this is pretty much a given. I don't mean to bring all u 5k book guys down but u GOTTA know this can't last right?


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Jj2011 said:


> Well that's great. It's good to be happy. But u gotta know that the ku "everyone gets paid the same" bonanza isn't going to last. Sooner or later once Amazon has enough writers locked in they will change the terms to favor longer works. I think this is pretty much a given. I don't mean to bring all u 5k book guys down but u GOTTA know this can't last right?


I have all lengths.

_Edited to conform with Forum Decorum. --Betsy_


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

The thing is that short erotica has a high market value. The first rule of business is to offer value. What people forget is that length is not an indicator of value.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Word count is a pretty meaningless indicator.


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## Steph Ran (Nov 7, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> The thing is that short erotica has a high market value. The first rule of business is to offer value. What people forget is that length is not an indicator of value.


It's all in the niche. Lots of people like who-done-it mysteries that follow the same formula, and lots of people write them, thus smaller market share unless you're a big name or an outlier. Erotica has so many niches that not everyone feels comfortable writing and that don't take huge plot arcs to satisfy, that when you write well in an underserved niche, you can kill the charts. So I've gathered in my lurking. I take notes


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

> Well that's great. It's good to be happy. But u gotta know that the ku "everyone gets paid the same" bonanza isn't going to last. Sooner or later once Amazon has enough writers locked in they will change the terms to favor longer works. I think this is pretty much a given. I don't mean to bring all u 5k book guys down but u GOTTA know this can't last right?


No matter what genre or length you write, there is no guarantee it's going to last. Amazon could make changes tomorrow that will screw over your income and you can't do a thing about it. Unless you've got a pretty damn accurate crystal ball, you can only do what works for you today.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Word count is a pretty meaningless indicator.


Well, around this board, some folks think it should be rewarded in scale. Who knows. It could happen. But if payouts change, or if there's a length mentioned on search results, or if you can sort by wordcount or whatever, we'll adjust. Heck, I could take my 80K serial and turn it into 2 books. It'll be fine.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

LisaGloria said:


> Well, around this board, some folks think it should be rewarded in scale. Who knows. It could happen. But if payouts change, or if there's a length mentioned on search results, or if you can sort by wordcount or whatever, we'll adjust. Heck, I could take my 80K serial and turn it into 2 books. It'll be fine.


Scale of length isn't an indicator of market value though. So the idea that a person should be paid in accordance with length is kind of silly. My short erotica titles offer a value that people have historically paid $2.99 to purchase. Short smut writers are also getting paid less from a borrow than they would from a purchase. I just checked a random 5000 word erotica short in the pricing indicator on KDP. It suggests $2.99. So what should that tell me about the value of that title? What is the value to Amazon? Length is not an indicator of value.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm not sure that Amazon's idea for KU was for it to be primarily erotica and serialized erotic romance (and Amazon imprints), but perhaps they foresaw this and it's what they want. For heavy erotica readers, I'm sure it's a good deal, and perhaps that is what it'll end up being. I had 11,000 borrows in September, my best KU month, of full-length novels, and got pretty high up the All-Star list. At that point, at any rate, at least many subscribers seemed to be quite interested in reading full-length novels and to perceive them as providing more value for their KU dollar. But borrows do seem to be declining as more of the high-end indies have pulled their books from KU, leaving primarily the Amazon imprints in the top spots (and in any case, I doubt that those special deals for non-exclusive indies are forever), and I think it's shaking out more in the direction you indicate.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

It isn't as if full length novels don't have value. Of course they do. But I'm tired of hearing the short erotica bashing. Those shorts do have a high market value. 
I don't think we can possibly foresee what will happen in the future. There is so much tea leaf reading and opinion, it gets rehashed and retold as fact. But all we know is the data that is in front of us. Are you making less money in KU than you would in other retailers? That is a question every author has to figure out for themselves. I don't think it is any different for anyone. We are all in the same position.


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## M. Frank Parsons (Sep 23, 2014)

LisaGloria said:


> If they did ever have a word length requirement, I'll bet all the short works writers will have a field day with bundling permutations. Being able to respond quickly to a changing market will be key.


Have you run those numbers? I have.

Just the combinations on only 10 stories are impressive. The permutations are mind boggling.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

dirtiestdevil said:


> I tell EVERYONE to write erotica! The first person I told, was in fact, my own mother!
> 
> And if you want a little insider info... EVERY TYPE OF WRITING GETS BORING! You think all those mystery/romance writers look forward to churning out book after book? They follow the same formula over and over... You might think it's great to start with, but keep going long enough and it just becomes another job -- like anything else.


I used to write erotica until Amazon cracked down on it. My income plummeted by 75 percent, and then I switched to longer romances (with sex scenes), and my income skyrocketed. I make a very comfortable six figure income now. Every year I pay more in taxes than I used to earn in two years.

I know people who are earning a living wage with erotica, but I also know they earn less than they used to, with much bigger catalogs. I'm not trying to be discouraging, I'm just saying that after the multiple Amazon crackdowns on erotica, it's harder than it used to be.

It seems to me that it's hard for erotica to really "break out" these days and make the Amazon top 100.

Also - when you say "writing what you love" - I love everything that I write, but I am also writing to market. I am just doing it in a genre that I happen to enjoy. It's not like the only two choices are having the attitude "I will only write what I want and I don't give a damn about the market and I won't conform to anyone's expectations!" or churning out stuff that you hate.

Looking through the bestseller lists shows you the many, many different types of books that sell well.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

DanaG said:


> I used to write erotica until Amazon cracked down on it. My income plummeted by 75 percent, and then I switched to longer romances (with sex scenes), and my income skyrocketed. I make a very comfortable six figure income now. Every year I pay more in taxes than I used to earn in two years.
> 
> I know people who are earning a living wage with erotica, but I also know they earn less than they used to, with much bigger catalogs. I'm not trying to be discouraging, I'm just saying that after the multiple Amazon crackdowns on erotica, it's harder than it used to be.


This is what happened to me. I'm making almost exactly 25% of what I was making on Amazon a year and a half ago. Well, except I wasn't smart enough to switch to romance. I'd love to, but as slowly as I write it's very difficult to make the switch. Every time I think _$2.99 for a 12k short, or $3.99 for a 60k novel..._ I cringe and write another short. I'm a terrible coward.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

Kelli, what's standing in the way of you writing more quickly? PM me if you want, I'll help you brainstorm strategies to write faster. I've had several months where I put out a new book every two weeks.

Also - my stuff is generally 30,000 to 40,000 words. Sells just as well as when I write 50,000 words.  I categorize it as romance. I introduce the characters, let them get to know each other for a few chapters, THEN they have sex.  I have some plot, some problem they need to solve, in addition to the romance.


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## Jonathan C. Gillespie (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm not in the club--sadly, not anywhere near it yet. But I am starting to see some momentum, and I just wanted to drop in and tell all of you good for you, and thanks for the inspiration.

Particularly to you spec-fic folks.


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

Kalypsō said:


> Word count is a pretty meaningless indicator.


Very true. However, if the readers of any genre are spending $10 a month for KU, and Amazon is paying more than that to authors of books the reader borrows through KU, (if they are a voracious reader, or reading tons of short stories), someone in 'Zon management is bound to start crunching the numbers and figuring out that the math doesn't work.

If that voracious reader is a minority, they may be balanced out by all the people who forget they have automatic payments and don't use KU, but that would be something Amazon would have to analyze.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Just because something is short, doesn't mean it has less value. That is what everyone how sites word count payouts fails to realize. Word count is not an indicator of value. Should HM Ward be paid less per borrow for her serial than Joe Shmoe for his boring 500 pages of meandering nonsense? Should you get a higher payout for a short work if you are a New York Times best seller? Does it have more or less value? Word count is not an indicator of value.


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

Kalypsō said:


> Just because something is short, doesn't mean it has less value. That is what everyone how sites word count payouts fails to realize. Word count is not an indicator of value. Should HM Ward be paid less per borrow for her serial than Joe Shmoe for his boring 500 pages of meandering nonsense? Should you get a higher payout for a short work if you are a New York Times best seller? Does it have more or less value? Word count is not an indicator of value.


Again, very true. 

What I am saying is, that it may be more EXPENSIVE to Amazon, if they have readers who pay less than the payout that Amazon gives authors on their behalf.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Miranda_Dean said:


> Again, very true.
> 
> What I am saying is, that it may be more EXPENSIVE to Amazon, if they have readers who pay less than the payout that Amazon gives authors on their behalf.


That could happen at any length book considering an author gets paid at 10%. Some people read an entire romance novel per day. Should any genre that has voracious readers be penalized?


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Does anybody have a guess at how many people have actually signed up for the KU program? Readers, I mean? Because I'm hearing strange stuff from mystery readers I know--like, they never heard of the program, they would never give Amazon any more of their money, that they get plenty of freebies now to read, etc. Quite discouraging!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I think the difficulty is that it's going to be hard to "sell" the value of a program to subscribers if it mainly consists of Amazon imprints and short serials/erotica. The problem is that if you write 100K books that sell (presumably not boring ones), it's a tough proposition to put them into a program to earn even $2 apiece (with an All-Star bonus), if you are normally selling them for $4.99 or $5.99 as good-selling indies are. And yet Amazon needs those books in there to make the program viable. So that's the difficulty--not that there aren't readers of erotica who won't gobble up two $2.99 5K books a day for their $9.99 subscription, which there clearly are. But that if that's ALL the program is (all the content it has), it's not really viable and it's not going to have many subscribers beyond those erotica/short erotic serial readers.

Therefore, it would probably be better for Amazon to make it more beneficial for authors of the longer stuff that sells well--novels--to have their books in. And even with a bonus, you're still looking at $1.80 to $2/borrow, cannibalization of sales, and obviously no opportunity to sell on other platforms. That's why I believe that they need to have some adjustments in the borrow rate for length in order for the program to continue. Because it simply takes a lot more time to write a 100K novel than a 5K erotica short. If you want an author to put 2-3 months' worth of work in there for $1.50-$2 a borrow, even for a fast-writing indie like me--if you want those good-selling and best-selling novels in there--you have to make that worth the authors' while, or they're going to say, heck, I'll write one of these-here serials for this instead. And then you get a program full of serials, erotica shorts, and Amazon novels.

Which may be just fine with them, like I said. Depends what their goal is. But I actually doubt it's that.


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## M. Frank Parsons (Sep 23, 2014)

bobbic said:


> Does anybody have a guess at how many people have actually signed up for the KU program? Readers, I mean? Because I'm hearing strange stuff from mystery readers I know--like, they never heard of the program, they would never give Amazon any more of their money, that they get plenty of freebies now to read, etc. Quite discouraging!


Remember, KU is very new. Less than a year. Most people didn't know about Amazon itself in its first year.

There are ~30 million Kindles out there right now, more every day. Don't let the words of a handful of people (authors, "experts", readers) taint your perceptions. THEY won't; others will.

No one knows how many people have KU subscriptions- 'Zon don't share.


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## Smash_Rodz (Sep 17, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> I love writing, but I also love shoes and food and stuff like that. lol. I'm a stay at home mom and I live on my husband's poverty wages from his small business. Not being able to afford important things for my daughter is really hard. So money makes me giddy. It changes my life. Even a few grand a month changes my life. It makes a HUGE difference. I've been poor for a long time and I'm exhausted. I live in a sketchy neighborhood in St. Louis. I don't want to keep living like this. So, yeah. I love writing. I got a degree in creative writing. But I NEED money. I need to be able to make money while being at home. A regular job isn't even an option.
> 
> I feel so good about everything that is happening for me, I'm starting to think it's time for me to stop being snarky on the internet. I really want to keep feeling good all the time. There's a lot of negativity online. Maybe it's time to start finding real life associates who I can trust to not one star bomb me when I make dumb jokes or get excited about my success.
> 
> I really do love kboards and forums and all, but gosh, I just want to feel good. I want to be happy. I want people to be nice to me and accept me for who I am. Oh well. LOL.  kisses


Of all the people's success stories in the erotica challenge thread I would have to say that I have enjoyed reading yours the most. I know what it feels like to struggle so much that even a slight increase in income makes you giddy. My husband is sick and unable to work at the moment so it's just my income. I recently got my first job as an RN and the money is pretty darn good. However, this job is sucking the soul out of me. I hate it with every fiber of my being. But, it lets me pay my bills and buy my kids the stuff they need/want. That feeling alone is intoxicating. I felt so good the other day when I took them all to the store and I was able to buy shoes, clothes, toys without worrying about which bill I was going to have to pay late because of our little shopping trip. So, I totally get where you're coming from and I love reading about your success at writing erotica. I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous! I dream of staying home with my kids and following my passion, which is writing. I have an erotica story written and I'm on the second one now. I just need to figure out the formatting, keywords, etc and then I'll publish. I hope to be successful like you one day  Keep on writing what works for you!


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2014)

Drew Gideon said:


> So they ride it while it lasts, making money all the way.
> If the hammer comes down and Zon says "20k minimum", they bundle four 5k shorts together for KU, leave the individual shorts out in the marketplace for $2.99 each, and keep making money all the way.
> 
> Don't fear change. Plan for it. Adapt.
> ...


Great point! I don't understand when people say you have to know it will change or end. It makes me wonder if they think we should do nothing because of this. When KU started, my income decreased by 50%. It hurt! But I didn't sit there whining that they screwed me and it's got to change so I can get back to my usual visibility. I threw some books into KU, saw I could yank some of my income back, and kept moving. I want all of my income back, and I would love a change. If it happens, wonderful. If it doesn't, I'll still be working hard to get what I need.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Smash_Rodz said:


> Of all the people's success stories in the erotica challenge thread I would have to say that I have enjoyed reading yours the most. I know what it feels like to struggle so much that even a slight increase in income makes you giddy. My husband is sick and unable to work at the moment so it's just my income. I recently got my first job as an RN and the money is pretty darn good. However, this job is sucking the soul out of me. I hate it with every fiber of my being. But, it lets me pay my bills and buy my kids the stuff they need/want. That feeling alone is intoxicating. I felt so good the other day when I took them all to the store and I was able to buy shoes, clothes, toys without worrying about which bill I was going to have to pay late because of our little shopping trip. So, I totally get where you're coming from and I love reading about your success at writing erotica. I have to admit that I'm a bit jealous! I dream of staying home with my kids and following my passion, which is writing. I have an erotica story written and I'm on the second one now. I just need to figure out the formatting, keywords, etc and then I'll publish. I hope to be successful like you one day  Keep on writing what works for you!


Oh, it's great until people start telling you, you don't deserve it. I've never had the time, inclination, or money to write series of novels. I write serials and just started writing short stories. But apparently, I'm diluting KU with my short sexy times and should realize that I should just stay poor in south St. Louis, you know, so the deserving people can continue to be wealthy.

KU is benefiting shorter works right now. Has anything ever benefited shorter works before? I mean Jesus. Talk about elitism. If something changes and KU suddenly benefits novels more, then shorter form writers have to scramble to figure out how to keep paying bills. People who are actually getting All-Stars bonuses complaining about short story writers seems pretty bad form. We all have to figure out what business plan will work for us. If KU isn't working for you, do something else. God knows I will have to if things change. But apparently, if you are already insanely successful, it's fine to look down on someone who isn't because they are getting a tiny piece of the pie.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> But apparently, if you are already insanely successful, it's fine to look down on someone who isn't because they are getting a tiny piece of the pie.


Who exactly are these people looking down on you for getting a tiny piece of the pie? I don't think anybody's said anything of the kind. Personally, I'm very happy for anyone who's making money out of writing. The more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned.

ETA: I'm not in Select or KU so I have no dog in this fight.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> Who exactly are these people looking down on you for getting a tiny piece of the pie? I don't think anybody's said anything of the kind. Personally, I'm very happy for anyone who's making money out of writing. The more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> ETA: I'm not in Select or KU so I have no dog in this fight.


Well, thanks. I hope that some of this lasts for a while so I can move out of the ghetto. With all the doom and gloom about short fiction, it's pretty hard to have any hope of a brighter future for me and my kids. But heck, why should I get to make any money. I write serials with sexy times in them. Not like there's a massive market for that work.... I should take my writing degree and go get a job at McDonald's like a member of my class should.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> I should take my writing degree and go get a job at McDonald's like a member of my class should.


No, you should take your writing degree and go write something.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> No, you should take your writing degree and go write something.


I appreciate that. After over a year in publishing and nearly 40 titles, I'm finally seeing real money. The biggest reason is because I stopped listening to the extremely constrictive paradigm preached here.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> The biggest reason is because I stopped listening to the extremely constrictive paradigm preached here.


Oddly enough, I find this to be a very 'write-and-let-write' community. Anyway, good luck! Sounds like you're kicking [word for donkey and posterior redacted], which is awesome.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> I appreciate that. After over a year in publishing and nearly 40 titles, I'm finally seeing real money. The biggest reason is because I stopped listening to the extremely constrictive paradigm preached here.


What often gets preached here is only one way of doing things, and to be fair it can prove successful in some circumstances. However, it's not going to work for everybody and if your way is working well it would be silly to abandon it.

As it happens, I take bits and pieces of advice that I find useful from here, but I certainly don't adopt it wholesale.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> Well, thanks. I hope that some of this lasts for a while so I can move out of the ghetto. With all the doom and gloom about short fiction, it's pretty hard to have any hope of a brighter future for me and my kids. But heck, why should I get to make any money. I write serials with sexy times in them. Not like there's a massive market for that work.... I should take my writing degree and go get a job at McDonald's like a member of my class should.


Who is saying this to you? I wonder if you're saying it to yourself. Nobody's looking down on you. Go write your books. You're fine, and you're doing fine. I write sexytimes in my books too. It's all good.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Lydniz said:


> What often gets preached here is only one way of doing things, and to be fair it can prove successful in some circumstances. However, it's not going to work for everybody and if your way is working well it would be silly to abandon it.
> 
> As it happens, I take bits and pieces of advice that I find useful from here, but I certainly don't adopt it wholesale.


I've only skimmed the thread, but I wanted to second this post, particularly because as a newbie, I did not fully understand this. KB feels like THE central hub of indie advice. And maybe it is "central"... But here, there is definitely - I won't call it a "party line," but there is definitely good and vital advice that you WON'T get here, simply because of the public nature of this forum. In my experience, many indies are willing to discuss their marketing and advertising strategies, but not here... And certainly not in detail. ("How your ad with X went" threads don't count.) Plus, KB is also a great bastion of MISinformation, for the same reason - anyone can contribute anything. It's not always obvious, either, who has the good and bad advice, not even based on seniority, post count, anonymity or lack of it, etc.

For a long time, KB was my number one source for Indie news and advice. It felt comprehensive, so it was hard for me to understand how very limited the information here is. Plus, this wasn't always the case. Ages ago, KB also had that private, let's all share everything feel. That has changed - but again, if this place is your only frame of reference, or you're only just joining, it's hard to see that.

Anyone who's serious about this thing should, at some point, seek out more private forums and loops. Following the advice here on KB is a nice way to get started, but more and more I realized, before I stopped participating much, what many already have -- that it will only get you so far.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

If I could write sex scenes I'd get into erotica like a shot. But I don't have the ability, so I don't.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> Who is saying this to you? I wonder if you're saying it to yourself. Nobody's looking down on you. Go write your books. You're fine, and you're doing fine. I write sexytimes in my books too. It's all good.


I'm just bracing myself for the fall of shorts. It's got to happen right? Then all my small gains spiral down the toilet. As they should, right? Because it simply isn't fair to novelists.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Kalypsō said:


> I'm just bracing myself for the fall of shorts. It's got to happen right? Then all my small gains spiral down the toilet. As they should, right? Because it simply isn't fair to novelists.


Talking about the POSSIBLE long-term unsustainability of the business model you use =/= saying you don't deserve your success.

*shakes head* case in point, folks.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> I'm just bracing myself for the fall of shorts. It's got to happen right? Then all my small gains spiral down the toilet. As they should, right? Because it simply isn't fair to novelists.


There's a huge market for erotica, and there always will be. I'm not real interested in writing it, and I write because I love it and am doing well writing what I do--so I don't write erotica. If I did, there would be some things I'd write and others I never could. Me personally. But that's me. If it's working for you, more power to you. If there are people saying it's not fair to novelists, those probably aren't successful novelists saying it. What do we care what others do? We're all experimenting ourselves, all the time, if we want to grow our market.

So--go forth in peace and write sexy shorts! It's a lot more profitable than arguing on the Internet.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Kalypsō said:


> I'm just bracing myself for the fall of shorts. It's got to happen right? Then all my small gains spiral down the toilet. As they should, right? Because it simply isn't fair to novelists.


Let's reverse that! Short stories will become hugely popular and those of us who LOVE writing short stuff will finally get some exposure AND a nice income from it. I truly dream of this. I LOVE writing short stories and can write lots of them. So far, some of them are selling, but I'm not getting borrows (WHY O WHY) and my longer books aren't selling (prob because I don't want to commit to writing series.

KU hasn't helped me one little bit, but I'm still going to try it. They weren't selling much before, either, so it's not like KU killed my sales. I just don't have enough of them out there yet.

I read some erotica but don't enjoy writing it. I wish I did!


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> There's a huge market for erotica, and there always will be. I'm not real interested in writing it, and I write because I love it and am doing well writing what I do--so I don't write erotica. If I did, there would be some things I'd write and others I never could. Me personally. But that's me. If it's working for you, more power to you. If there are people saying it's not fair to novelists, those probably aren't successful novelists saying it. What do we care what others do? We're all experimenting ourselves, all the time, if we want to grow our market.
> 
> So--go forth in peace and write sexy shorts! It's a lot more profitable than arguing on the Internet.


I don't only write erotica. I have serials that are very plot focused. But you've seemed to be lumping all serials together with erotica and erotic romance. And yes, you have been making it as if KU is unfair for you because it benefits short form authors.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

DianaGS said:


> I've only skimmed the thread, but I wanted to second this post, particularly because as a newbie, I did not fully understand this. KB feels like THE central hub of indie advice. And maybe it is "central"... But here, there is definitely - I won't call it a "party line," but there is definitely good and vital advice that you WON'T get here, simply because of the public nature of this forum. In my experience, many indies are willing to discuss their marketing and advertising strategies, but not here... And certainly not in detail. ("How your ad with X went" threads don't count.) Plus, KB is also a great bastion of MISinformation, for the same reason - anyone can contribute anything. It's not always obvious, either, who has the good and bad advice, not even based on seniority, post count, anonymity or lack of it, etc.
> 
> For a long time, KB was my number one source for Indie news and advice. It felt comprehensive, so it was hard for me to understand how very limited the information here is. Plus, this wasn't always the case. Ages ago, KB also had that private, let's all share everything feel. That has changed - but again, if this place is your only frame of reference, or you're only just joining, it's hard to see that.
> 
> Anyone who's serious about this thing should, at some point, seek out more private forums and loops. Following the advice here on KB is a nice way to get started, but more and more I realized, before I stopped participating much, what many already have -- that it will only get you so far.


There are people on this forum who are outright insane. But they get babied and protected as long as they are polite. Buyer beware.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

DianaGS said:


> Talking about the POSSIBLE long-term unsustainability of the business model you use =/= saying you don't deserve your success.
> 
> *shakes head* case in point, folks.


Having a lot more borrows than sales is obviously shaky ground. It doesn't help to have a bunch of people rubbing it in.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> I think the difficulty is that it's going to be hard to "sell" the value of a program to subscribers if it mainly consists of Amazon imprints and short serials/erotica. The problem is that if you write 100K books that sell (presumably not boring ones), it's a tough proposition to put them into a program to earn even $2 apiece (with an All-Star bonus), if you are normally selling them for $4.99 or $5.99 as good-selling indies are. And yet Amazon needs those books in there to make the program viable. So that's the difficulty--not that there aren't readers of erotica who won't gobble up two $2.99 5K books a day for their $9.99 subscription, which there clearly are. But that if that's ALL the program is (all the content it has), it's not really viable and it's not going to have many subscribers beyond those erotica/short erotic serial readers.
> 
> Therefore, it would probably be better for Amazon to make it more beneficial for authors of the longer stuff that sells well--novels--to have their books in. And even with a bonus, you're still looking at $1.80 to $2/borrow, cannibalization of sales, and obviously no opportunity to sell on other platforms. That's why I believe that they need to have some adjustments in the borrow rate for length in order for the program to continue. Because it simply takes a lot more time to write a 100K novel than a 5K erotica short. If you want an author to put 2-3 months' worth of work in there for $1.50-$2 a borrow, even for a fast-writing indie like me--if you want those good-selling and best-selling novels in there--you have to make that worth the authors' while, or they're going to say, heck, I'll write one of these-here serials for this instead. And then you get a program full of serials, erotica shorts, and Amazon novels.
> 
> Which may be just fine with them, like I said. Depends what their goal is. But I actually doubt it's that.


I had not thought this through before, but this post made me realize that read-all-you-want models have a big problem. It's impossible to come up with a good measure to determine pays. Make the payout per book, and you penalize long books. Make the payout per page, and you penalize short books that readers value highly. I can't see a good solution.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> Having a lot more borrows than sales is obviously shaky ground. It doesn't help to have a bunch of people rubbing it in.


The vast majority of people who give their opinions on here base their views on how things affect their OWN sales, so if people have talked about how they see KU shaking out, I don't think it's any particular comment on you or other short story writers. We're a pretty self-absorbed bunch in general.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Kalypsō said:


> Well, thanks. I hope that some of this lasts for a while so I can move out of the ghetto. With all the doom and gloom about short fiction, it's pretty hard to have any hope of a brighter future for me and my kids.





bobbic said:


> Let's reverse that! Short stories will become hugely popular and those of us who LOVE writing short stuff will finally get some exposure AND a nice income from it. I truly dream of this. I LOVE writing short stories and can write lots of them.


I do believe the short story market will last. There has always been a market for short stories, and I don't see why that would change. I have seen some of the threads Kalypso refers to about how shorts don't sell, or they don't sell unless they're erotica, and I don't believe that's true. I believe the erotica shorts sell because erotica, in general, is a big seller.

I also believe there a couple reasons shorts in other genres have trouble getting traction. One is that they don't have the support of the big promo sites. If they had the promotional opportunities that full length novels do, I think we would see more sales.

The other, and I believe probably the biggest reason, is that really good shorts are hard to write, and therefor, hard to find. It's not easy to come up with a plot, get the reader entrenched in it, resolve it, and develop multidimensional characters in such a short space. I admire anyone who can do that. I think that's one of the reasons I love short stories so much.

However, as someone who reads mostly short stories, I have to tell you, there are a lot of shorts stories out there that aren't great. So many that it makes it hard to find the stories that are. That, in itself, is going to drive some readers away.

Anyone who is finding success in the short story market has my respect. It tells me you not only write a great story but have developed a following, and that's something to be proud of.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> The vast majority of people who give their opinions on here base their views on how things affect their OWN sales, so if people have talked about how they see KU shaking out, I don't think it's any particular comment on you or other short story writers. We're a pretty self-absorbed bunch in general.


Well, obviously I'm self-absorbed too. Looking at these numbers is a totally new thing for me. The idea that it can't and won't last is really upsetting. But I'm picking up steam. I've got probably a million words published. I'll figure something out if it goes downhill. Thanks for being nice. I'm feeling really weird and neurotic lately.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Chill out Kal.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

von19 said:


> Chill out Kal.


Oh, yes. You've solved everything.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> Oh, yes. You've solved everything.


Glad to be of service.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> Well, obviously I'm self-absorbed too. Looking at these numbers is a totally new thing for me. The idea that it can't and won't last is really upsetting. But I'm picking up steam. I've got probably a million words published. I'll figure something out if it goes downhill. Thanks for being nice. I'm feeling really weird and neurotic lately.


Enjoy the success. It's a great feeling.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Looking at it from the "worst case" side, suppose KU went away tomorrow, or Amazon barred entry to short erotica/romance completely? It's not like the readers are going away. They'll still be there, as voracious as ever. They'll just have to go back to buying outright. They've certainly been willing to do it before, and I don't think this experiment with KU is going to change that. And it isn't like they can go to the competition; last I heard neither Scribd nor Oyster allows short erotica to participate in their subscription programs. You can buy it from them, but only at full price.

Even if sales don't go back to what they were with borrows, you've got an automatic 25% buffer area there because 70% of 2.99 is 2.07, which is 25% better than $1.50.

So KU going away wouldn't be the end of the world. I'm already limiting what I'm putting into it because there are things that don't do as well that I could make more money going wide with, and I make enough money from the other distributors that I don't want them to dry up by going all-in with Select. Besides that, Amazon has deliberately screwed me enough times in the last couple of years (hard and without protection   ) that I will never, ever, ever, ever go all-in with them. Never.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I try not to think in terms of "fair" or "unfair," as it's pretty pointless, or to think about what Amazon or any other platform "should" do. I just try to see what "is," and whether that will work for me or not. Personally, KU worked great for me the first couple of months (and Select in general worked great for me the first couple of years), but it's working less well now for whatever reason, and I think there's more to gain by going wide at this point, so I'm doing that. As I said, I think there are some perhaps unintended consequences of the program (the incentive to write short, quick works in particular). I don't see that as "unfair" to me (or novelists in general), because it's not about me. I see it as "not beneficial" to me--because I think the KU subscriber base is perhaps trending towards readers of serial fiction and erotica, who aren't my readers. That doesn't say "Amazon's messing me up!", it says, "the way Amazon works in this instance isn't working out as well for me right now, so time to experiment with something else." 

This is a tough business with a lot of pressure. Decisions can be tricky and murky. It's a lot easier if you can keep emotion out of the decision-making process. Not to say that we don't all have emotions and fear--it's normal--but it's better to try to separate that from the actual decisions. Because one thing's for sure--whatever is happening today, it'll change tomorrow! We have the advantage of being able to respond quickly and nimbly, unlike big publishers. So--if something's working for you: go for it, full steam ahead! If it's not working as well--take a deep breath and try something else.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I think each author has to weigh what's best for them as far as KU is concerned. Right now, it's working for me. Will I pull the plug and get out if things change? Absolutely. Amazon has a hard decision in front of them. I certainly don't think they envisioned KU as a short story and erotica farm. That's certainly not going to entice the readers they're looking for. They're either going to have to change things to reward longer works or put a minimum word length. I think they'd be fine with the bundling.
And no, before people start screeching, I don't think there's no value to erotica. I do think there's DIFFERENT value for erotica. Personally, I don't know why anyone actually pays for erotica when there are sites like Literotica out there. You can get all the erotica you want for free -- and none of it is cleaned up. It's all hardcore and as filthy as you want it. Amazon has proven in the past that they're willing to dump big money-making genres to play the "family" game. How many big erotica purges have there been? How many more will there be? I quit playing the erotica writing game last fall when they had that big purge. I certainly don't regret it. I've found great success in my cozy mysteries and am building a new brand with romantic suspense. I enjoy writing both.
While I do believe there are a handful of people on here who tell everyone else what to do, I think in general most people want to live a "write what you want" existence. Having a chip on your shoulder doesn't really help the conversation to me. If you're comfortable writing what you want and making money, why do you feel the need to justify it? Just do it. Saying how happy you are doing something twenty times in the same thread actually doesn't signify happiness to me -- it hints at unease. To each their own, though.


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## SkyScribe (Aug 18, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I try not to think in terms of "fair" or "unfair," as it's pretty pointless, or to think about what Amazon or any other platform "should" do. I just try to see what "is," and whether that will work for me or not. Personally, KU worked great for me the first couple of months (and Select in general worked great for me the first couple of years), but it's working less well now for whatever reason, and I think there's more to gain by going wide at this point, so I'm doing that. As I said, I think there are some perhaps unintended consequences of the program (the incentive to write short, quick works in particular). I don't see that as "unfair" to me (or novelists in general), because it's not about me. I see it as "not beneficial" to me--because I think the KU subscriber base is perhaps trending towards readers of serial fiction and erotica, who aren't my readers. That doesn't say "Amazon's messing me up!", it says, "the way Amazon works in this instance isn't working out as well for me right now, so time to experiment with something else."
> 
> This is a tough business with a lot of pressure. Decisions can be tricky and murky. It's a lot easier if you can keep emotion out of the decision-making process. Not to say that we don't all have emotions and fear--it's normal--but it's better to try to separate that from the actual decisions. Because one thing's for sure--whatever is happening today, it'll change tomorrow! We have the advantage of being able to respond quickly and nimbly, unlike big publishers. So--if something's working for you: go for it, full steam ahead! If it's not working as well--take a deep breath and try something else.


One of the best posts on this site ever.


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## Nomadwoman (Aug 25, 2011)

Mylius Fox said:


> The cover to The Bridge was so beautifully compelling that I just _had_ to click it, and seeing it set to $0.00 resulted in another click.


Mark me down for two clicks on that also!
This thread is amazing (and confusing) I thought Erotica was a dud on Amazon now. I read all sorts of posts about the dungeon. Is it still worthwhile going dirty or better to lift up into romance with less dirt?
And is it that erotica is good as standalone short?


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## Sheluvspink (May 14, 2014)

I write NA Contemporary/ Romantic suspense. I wasn't able to do this until I made my first in the series perma free. I HIGHLY recommend permafree if you have a series.


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## meowbiscuit (Jul 17, 2014)

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate the positive posts in this thread. I was beginning to get a little overwhelmed by all the "sky is falling" posts here. I had to go down several pages to find this one and I'm glad I did. 

I'd love to see more positive posts like this one. I'm just getting started and it's a great way to counteract so many of the posts that seem to delve down into the doldrums. Not that I don't appreciate some of the advice on those threads, but after awhile, I find myself thinking, "Gee. Is there any point? Obviously everything's going to hell!" 

Glad to see a counterpoint to that.


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## RyanAndrewKinder (Dec 14, 2014)

Sheluvspink said:


> I write NA Contemporary/ Romantic suspense. I wasn't able to do this until I made my first in the series perma free. I HIGHLY recommend permafree if you have a series.


Do you think it will hurt your sales if amazon clamps down on permafree?


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## NoahPorter (Sep 15, 2013)

RyanAndrewKinder said:


> Do you think it will hurt your sales if amazon clamps down on permafree?


They already have. They've changed permafree rankings in the algo, they've changed how often they show up in also-boughts, they've changed visibility site-wide for permafrees - all after the roll out of KU.

It's certainly affecting permafree downloads from every author I've talked to and is most certainly a contributing factor to my 70% decline in sales on Amazon since KU rolled out.


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## Sheluvspink (May 14, 2014)

RyanAndrewKinder said:


> Do you think it will hurt your sales if amazon clamps down on permafree?


Clamp down do you mean like phase out?I didn't go free until after KU rolled out and I hear that was a big clamp down. The good thing is the rest of the books in my series are ranking pretty good so it should lead to the purchase of my first IF that happened. But I sell wide because of this. I make more money at Apple than I do at Amazon. Also the permafree's that I've given away has helped me establish a solid fanbase.


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## Bill Vaz (Aug 4, 2015)

I've noticed this topic has been inactive for quite a long time now: almost a year  

I wonder how many of the authors that gained $5000+ a month are still achieving that great measure of sucesss.... And how many new so sucessful authors are around here on the forums


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2015)

I write steampunk. I've been making a consistent 5k+/month since I parted ways with my publisher a few months back, bought my series back and went wide. I should crack 10k/month for August thanks to starting to gain traction on Apple, Kobo and B&N.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Still making 5k+ a month. It's not the kind of thing that usually fades as long as you keep writing and promoting


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## DawnLee (Aug 17, 2014)

I wasn't making anywhere near 5k when this thread was started, but I remember poring over the comments and feeling like it was at least possible. I published the first book in my new series in June, and June was my first 4-digit month. July and August have both been 5-digit months. Hopefully, I can slow down soon without losing too much income.


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## blubarry (Feb 27, 2015)

I wasn't making that when this thread started, but have been well over 5k each month this year, mostly from novels (80-100k words).


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

On Sept. 1, I'll have been published three years. The only months in which I haven't made at least $5,000 are Months 2 & 3, in which I came close. Since Month 5, all my months have been five figures. Here's a post on what worked for me, if anybody is interested. http://www.rosalindjames.com/what-worked-for-me/


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

This thread kind of makes me laugh. First off, a lot of us were talking about the changes in KU long before they announced them. That was almost a full year ago. It is nice seeing what I was making a year ago, too. I still make more than $5,000 a month and I'm still having a great time doing it.


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

I haven't posted on these boards in ages, but I started making more than $5k a month the first month (June) I launched my new series, which is light PNR.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2015)

DawnLee said:


> I wasn't making anywhere near 5k when this thread was started, but I remember poring over the comments and feeling like it was at least possible. I published the first book in my new series in June, and June was my first 4-digit month. July and August have both been 5-digit months. Hopefully, I can slow down soon without losing too much income.


Sorry to derail for a moment but I am reading Low Tide now and am OBSESSED. So excited you write about the panhandle. We vacation in St George Island every summer and Apalachicola is one of the cutest towns. I feel like that whole area is this big secret no one knows about. I also lived in PCB for 2 years in my early 20s having the time of my life. So thank you for writing this series. I am so happy you're finding such success because it is really really good. My mom is also reading it. I can't say enough great things about it.

To stay on topic: Congrats all of you and thank you for sharing your insights. Glad to see this thread re-opened for updates! Hope this time next year I'm getting close to this.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Urban/Contemporary Fantasy (seems to be popular in this thread), with horror-comedy leanings.
> 
> Typically 80k+ in size.
> 
> ...


WAIT. You do a "few" bookbubs a year? How What's the secret!? LOL I've been trying for a year.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

I recently hit the 1k sales a month mark. However, it came after a major re-branding of my fiction book covers and blurbs (marketing copy), adding more keywords, and another round of edits on all of my published books to polish them further. 

I write YA PNR and soft Sci-Fi and NA romantic suspense. Plus, some non-fiction.

My top seller in fiction is my YA paranormal/horror serial novels. The first book in the series is perma-free. 

My next biggest seller is "Writer's Guide to Character Emotion" that stays in the top 10 on a few of Amazon's bestselling lists.

I'm hoping by publishing another fiction book within the next 2 months that my sales will jump again. So, if you're in the 5k month range, then congrats! That's my goal for 2016!


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## DawnLee (Aug 17, 2014)

BelleAC said:


> Sorry to derail for a moment but I am reading Low Tide now and am OBSESSED. So excited you write about the panhandle. We vacation in St George Island every summer and Apalachicola is one of the cutest towns. I feel like that whole area is this big secret no one knows about. I also lived in PCB for 2 years in my early 20s having the time of my life. So thank you for writing this series. I am so happy you're finding such success because it is really really good. My mom is also reading it. I can't say enough great things about it.


Aw, Belle. Thank you so much. It's been a rough couple of weeks personally, and your comment brought tears to my eyes. Thank you so much for taking the time to be so kind.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

Kristen Painter said:


> I haven't posted on these boards in ages, but I started making more than $5k a month the first month (June) I launched my new series, which is light PNR.


Good for you! That's amazing.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> On Sept. 1, I'll have been published three years. The only months in which I haven't made at least $5,000 are Months 2 & 3, in which I came close. Since Month 5, all my months have been five figures. Here's a post on what worked for me, if anybody is interested. http://www.rosalindjames.com/what-worked-for-me/


Thanks for sharing!


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## SkyScribe (Aug 18, 2014)

The increase this year has been phenomenal, even more than I anticipated. Adding Facebook ads to the usual ebook sites routine and personal mailing list has been part of it, but that doesn't account for all of it. There are so many more readers buying my books for whatever reason. It seems like every decision I make is the right one. With any luck that'll hold true for a while longer. Congrats to those just crossing the $5k threshold.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I write mostly historical fiction. Not many HF authors are able to write full-time, and my income also recently replaced my husband's and allowed him to quit his job and come work for me. HF is a very difficult genre if your goal is to earn $5K+ per month, but I guess I'm proof that it is possible. If I were going to advise an author whose goal was to earn this kind of money, my first piece of advice would be to think long and hard about whether she wanted to attempt it in HF. Historical novels tend to be long and beefy and full of lots of detail--that's what readers expect--and unless you've already got a lot of that info in your head for a particular era that also happens to be popular with readers, it can be a time-drain to write. Time drains are not usually conducive to building a backlist quickly and therefore earning higher incomes.

I do write romance, too, but I really haven't started promoting it yet (have been waiting to build up a solid backlist first) so it's currently a negligible part of my income. Hopefully that will soon change.

ETA: This time last year, when this thread started, I was earning about $3500/month with historical fiction. So it's nice to look back and see the measurable growth.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

My income has slowed in August, but averaging my income for 2015 brings me to the $5,000 a month level so far. My first series (Gastien) was/is historical fiction/drama/family saga. The other two are psychological thriller. It's the psychological thriller series There Was a House that did it for me. Gastien sells steadily and has some periods better than others, etc. I also made a few thousand of that income with m/m romance serials.

I will second what ElHawk said about historical. It can be a HUGE time drain and is the reason why I switched genres. I needed to get more books out, and get them out faster, so I switched genres. I much prefer writing psychological thiller (as I love writing dark, raw, and gritty), plus I really love m/m romance. It's a nice switch for my brain after all the dark, angsty writing. I usually write both at once so I can switch my brain from one place to another. House (writing and 1st and 2nd books) almost destroyed me as the subject matter was really ugly. (Sex-trafficking). Some of the research and stuff I learned wasn't used in the books. The awfulness of some of the reality...it's just something I think will haunt me for quite awhile.

It's really fun to switch from one genre to the other! But, I still prefer dark stuff for both writing and reading.


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## R. M. Webb (Jul 24, 2014)

BelleAC said:


> Sorry to derail for a moment but I am reading Low Tide now and am OBSESSED. So excited you write about the panhandle. We vacation in St George Island every summer and Apalachicola is one of the cutest towns. I feel like that whole area is this big secret no one knows about. I also lived in PCB for 2 years in my early 20s having the time of my life. So thank you for writing this series. I am so happy you're finding such success because it is really really good. My mom is also reading it. I can't say enough great things about it.
> 
> To stay on topic: Congrats all of you and thank you for sharing your insights. Glad to see this thread re-opened for updates! Hope this time next year I'm getting close to this.


I'm derailing again to add my Low Tide love. So good. It's no wonder you're finding so much success, Dawn.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I joined this club a few months back. Will I be kicked out in September if I don't quite make it? 

Anyway, I write UF. Sex happens in the background in my stories, but is never explicit.


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## horrordude1973 (Sep 20, 2014)

I write horror, my next goal is 5K a month, I've come close but average around 3500ish a month with the occasional spike. Though that is up almost 1000.00 from this time last year.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Do 5k a month earning authors in general pay taxes as an individual or as a corporation of some kind?


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

HSh said:


> Do 5k a month earning authors in general pay taxes as an individual or as a corporation of some kind?


My accountant told me to wait until I made $100,000 or more to do a S corp. I file as a self-employed individual and know my write-offs.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Good to know, thanks.  I still have a lot to learn about taxes whether I ever become a highly successful indie or not.    

Right now I pay about 30 percent, but I had heard that LLC (is that the one?) pay at a lower rate.  

Sorry to derail the thread!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'm still doing fine, thanks. I have three more books out since the last time I replied, though. All in the same series.


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## sugarhit (Feb 9, 2015)

I'm happy for all of you, bestsellers in my book! I hope to someday soon be able to add myself to polls like this.



Philip Gibson said:


> Whenever I fret that maybe my genres would not be able to support a full-time wage, I head over to the best sellers in History and Science categories, look at the rankings of the top 20 books and calculate how many they are selling per day x book price.
> 
> Those best-selling history and science authors are making $30,000 to $100,000+ a month, so it definitely IS possible to make a full-time income outside of genres like erotica/romance, etc.
> 
> ...


I don't get this, how does the math breakdown because I'm thinking of spinning out into a new genre but am not sure how it'll sell and can't figure this out.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

HSh said:


> Do 5k a month earning authors in general pay taxes as an individual or as a corporation of some kind?


It depends where you incorporate at. The taxes and regulations are different for each state. Keep in mind you don't have to incorporate in your home state. It's pretty simple though. Sole prop taxes are about 30% all said and done. If you can incorporate and pay out less in fees and taxes than the 30% from sole prop... then incorporate! Corps also allow more business deductions/expenses/flexibility/etc. The downside is the nominal amount of formalities you have to upkeep (meeting minutes and whatnot).


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

HSh said:


> Do 5k a month earning authors in general pay taxes as an individual or as a corporation of some kind?


You'll probably get a variety of responses to this, as everybody has different circumstances, but my business is registered as an LLC and files as an S-Corp. That was done on the recommendation of my accountant.


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## Julz (Oct 30, 2014)

DawnLee said:


> I wasn't making anywhere near 5k when this thread was started, but I remember poring over the comments and feeling like it was at least possible. I published the first book in my new series in June, and June was my first 4-digit month. July and August have both been 5-digit months. Hopefully, I can slow down soon without losing too much income.


Congratulations, Dawn!! That's incredible!!! I came to the boards (as a lurker) about the time you published so it's amazing to see how well you're doing


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> You'll probably get a variety of responses to this, as everybody has different circumstances, but my business is registered as an LLC and files as an S-Corp. That was done on the recommendation of my accountant.


It depends on so many things. I am not incorporated, because it wouldn't work well for me given age, state in the U.S., etc.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Taxes. Yuck.
This is a good time to be thinking about it thought, because the taxes owed at the end of the year can be a shock if you are not prepared.

First, in the US you are required to pay quarterly estimated taxes on anything over $400.00, I think that's what it is.) and if you don't, you might have to pay a fine.

Second, find a good accountant. Trust me, that is easier said than done. It is bad advice to wait until you make 100k to get the ball rolling. The IRS doesn't care, but you might. Do you really want to pay 30% taxes - that's $33,000.00 on 100k? You have that much money saved, right? I didn't.

Third, if you are going to set up a corporation, be sure to incorporate in January. If you don't, you pay part of the year as a sole proprietor and part as a company. You need an tax consultant to figure all that out. Wish someone had told me that before I incorporated in October - when I hit 100k.

On the original subject, I average six figures a month, which is down from last year. I don't understand all that algorithm stuff, but I do know if people can read all they want for $10 a month, they have to really love my books before they will pay $4.99 each.  It raises the "great" book bar for all of us.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Martitalbott said:


> Taxes. Yuck.
> This is a good time to be thinking about it thought, because the taxes owed at the end of the year can be a shock if you are not prepared.
> 
> First, in the US you are required to pay quarterly estimated taxes on anything over $400.00, I think that's what it is.) and if you don't, you might have to pay a fine.
> ...


6 figures a month, as in over a million $ a year?


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Belatedly, thank you all for the thoughts about taxes.    I have a lot to learn, and I hope I get there soon!


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

HSh said:


> Belatedly, thank you all for the thoughts about taxes.  I have a lot to learn, and I hope I get there soon!


I've been putting this off as well. I need to do it before end of year so that I am set for 2016. *sigh* I hate taxes. However, I've been a SP and an LLC, and neither was all that complex. Just keeping track of everything.


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## countwordsmith (Aug 13, 2015)

An LLC is taxed the same as a sole-proprietor. The difference in how much you're taxed is how much money you make. Honestly, the IRS "rewards" the poor and the rich. What I mean by that is tax breaks. If you're in between, you get gutted. Lol. You would have to make probably a million to see a nice break.

When I was around the $600k range, they hit me hard! When I dropped back down, I began to see a better break. One thing my accountant advised was putting money in a SEP-IRA every year. When I first did it, I saved something like 40% in taxes. That means, if I didn't put money in retirement, I would have paid all of that money to the IRS. Although I can't spend it, at least it's still mine.

BTW, you can put more money into retirement with SEP-IRA as opposed to a regular IRA. For me, that was like $5k (I think??) as opposed to $50k a year. The IRS still limits the amount of money you can put into an IRA based on your income. Sheesh!!! (Or maybe it's how much you can write off based on income. Talk to your accountant. This isn't tax advice.)


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