# What the heck?



## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Is it just me or is the Writer's Cafe starting to look like the Old Book Bazaar? You old school KBers know what I mean.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

David Someguy
1 total posts.

BUY MY BOOK BUY MY BOOK BUY MY BOOK ITS MOST AMAZING THING YOU EVER SEEN!

*clears throat*

Not a clue what you're talking about, Kevis.


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## Nicki Leigh (Aug 25, 2011)

*smiles and glances around the room* I may still be a little new, but I think I know what you're talking about. Is this normal for it being the beginning of a new year? Please tell me the cafe will return to its more informative self before the summer kicks in. I miss the info posts. Seeing too much ranting, begging and promoting as of late.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

The first thing we do, let's kill all the writers.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> David Someguy
> 1 total posts.
> 
> BUY MY BOOK BUY MY BOOK BUY MY BOOK ITS MOST AMAZING THING YOU EVER SEEN!
> ...


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Jeff said:


> The first thing we do, let's kill all the writers.


Excellent. I'll grab the rope, you resurrect the epic David vs David thread.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Excellent. I'll grab the rope, you resurrect the epic David vs David thread.


Oh, good idea. *Off to search*


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Is it just me or is the Writer's Cafe starting to look like the Old Book Bazaar? You old school KBers know what I mean.


I haven't been here as long as other, but I know exactly what you mean.

Let's hope it's just a passing thing...


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## Debra L Martin (Apr 8, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Oh, good idea. *Off to search*


OMG - the epic David vs. David post....


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Well I couldn't find the thread, but - have I mentioned that in my new book, _How To Succeed In Self-Publishing Without Really Spamming_, I've devoted an entire chapter to this very subject.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Well I couldn't find the thread, but - have I mentioned that in my new book, _How To Succeed In Self-Publishing Without Really Spamming_, I've devoted an entire chapter to this very subject.


SQUEEE or WOOT or WOOHOO or your exclamation of choice.

Please do start one new thread in the Cafe per chapter to let us know when each word is going free!!!


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> SQUEEE or WOOT or WOOHOO or your exclamation of choice.
> 
> Please do start one new thread in the Cafe per chapter to let us know when each word is going free!!!


Thanks for the tip.









But before I do, I think I'll add a chapter discussing the merits of going free with a complete explanation of all the applicable algorithmic theories.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

You guys you guys, my newest book is totally relevant to this Kindle Prime Lending Library Free Price Ghetto Tagging conversation and you should buy [email protected]!


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Remember, thread to let us know when it goes free, then a new thread to tell us how the free thing is going, then another explaining your results and why you're happy with free, a new thread discussing the reviews you get from free and whether or not their expectations are fair, and then more thread detailing post-free sales.This is stuff we need to know!!!!


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Thanks for the tip.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


<swoonswithdelight> or I would if I understood one single thing about the algorithms.


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

Perhaps we need *one* "gone free" thread as a sticky, and anyone who wants to report about their "free" experience must post in this thread.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Remember, thread to let us know when it goes free, then a new thread to tell us how the free thing is going, then another explaining your results and why you're happy with free, a new thread discussing the reviews you get from free and whether or not their expectations are fair, and then more thread detailing post-free sales.This is stuff we need to know!!!!


Good job, David. Now we've got the official _Newbie's Primer _for the new and improved Writer's Cafe. But you left out rinse and repeat for each book.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

ETS PRESS said:


> Perhaps we need *one* "gone free" thread as a sticky, and anyone who wants to report about their "free" experience must post in this thread.


I'm pretty sure that Betsy and Ann made that suggestion in several places. It wasn't a demand, of course, because they've said repeatedly that it's entirely up to the writers to decide what's appropriate in the WC.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> <swoonswithdelight> or I would if I understood one single thing about the algorithms.


Actually I'm nerdy and like the algorithm discussions, but I wish they had pictures. PICTURES!!


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Is it just me or is the Writer's Cafe starting to look like the Old Book Bazaar? You old school KBers know what I mean.


Yup, self-promo and self-horn-tooting central. And that's not even the biggest bummer about what's going on around here. I think the old tone of "I'm not sure, but maybe the right answer could be..." has been replaced by "I'VE BEEN E-PUBBED FOR OVER THREE WEEKS AND GAVE AWAY BOOKS! HERE'S HOW THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED! SQUEE!"


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

jillmyles said:


> Actually I'm nerdy and like the algorithm discussions, but I wish they had pictures. PICTURES!!


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

daveconifer said:


> Yup, self-promo and self-horn-tooting central. And that's not even the biggest bummer about what's going on around here. I think the old tone of "I'm not sure, but maybe the right answer could be..." has been replaced by "I'VE BEEN E-PUBBED FOR OVER THREE WEEKS AND GAVE AWAY BOOKS! HERE'S HOW THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED! SQUEE!"


Hahaha.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

daveconifer said:


> Yup, self-promo and self-horn-tooting central. And that's not even the biggest bummer about what's going on around here. I think the old tone of "I'm not sure, but maybe the right answer could be..." has been replaced by "I'VE BEEN E-PUBBED FOR OVER THREE WEEKS AND GAVE AWAY BOOKS! HERE'S HOW THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED! SQUEE!"


SQUEEEE


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

daveconifer said:


> Yup, self-promo and self-horn-tooting central. And that's not even the biggest bummer about what's going on around here. I think the old tone of "I'm not sure, but maybe the right answer could be..." has been replaced by "I'VE BEEN E-PUBBED FOR OVER THREE WEEKS AND GAVE AWAY BOOKS! HERE'S HOW THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED! SQUEE!"


Now that is funny.


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## GGKeets (Jan 2, 2012)

daveconifer said:


> Yup, self-promo and self-horn-tooting central. And that's not even the biggest bummer about what's going on around here. I think the old tone of "I'm not sure, but maybe the right answer could be..." has been replaced by "I'VE BEEN E-PUBBED FOR OVER THREE WEEKS AND GAVE AWAY BOOKS! HERE'S HOW THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED! SQUEE!"


  I'm pretty sure I read that one yesterday.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

[Insert some random beard thought here.]

Oh, and BTW, my book _Something You Don't Want to Read, Even for Free_ is FREE TODAY!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

daveconifer said:


> Yup, self-promo and self-horn-tooting central. And that's not even the biggest bummer about what's going on around here. I think the old tone of "I'm not sure, but maybe the right answer could be..." has been replaced by "I'VE BEEN E-PUBBED FOR OVER THREE WEEKS AND GAVE AWAY BOOKS! HERE'S HOW THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED! SQUEE!"


I'm okay with that. I engaged in some of that myself last winter when I was really just falling into some luck, so I can forgive it in other newbies. What killed me, though, was that guy whose first post said something like, "I've never written anything before, but I'm just starting my new novel, which I will release at the end of January. Follow this lengthy list of instructions if you want blockbuster sales like I am destined to receive."


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

daveconifer said:


> Yup, self-promo and self-horn-tooting central. And that's not even the biggest bummer about what's going on around here. I think the old tone of "I'm not sure, but maybe the right answer could be..." has been replaced by "I'VE BEEN E-PUBBED FOR OVER THREE WEEKS AND GAVE AWAY BOOKS! HERE'S HOW THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED! SQUEE!"


Somebody owes me a new computer monitor!!! Darn coffee!


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## 41352 (Apr 4, 2011)

I think after the newness of Select rubs off, then things might quieten down.


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## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

The upside for me is I spend far less time reading threads here, freeing me up to procrastinate at various other websites instead.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I get that people are excited after a successful giveaway. Really, I do. But I could live without ten threads a day on the same subject. I don't know about you guys and gals, but I *think* I may have the gist of how free seems to be working. But you never know. Maybe the next thread will learn me somthin' new.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

MichaelWallace said:


> I'm okay with that


Michael, you're on my Kindleboards Mount Rushmore, I think you know that. I'm not against talking about our own success, and I think the other members are usually happy to hear about it. I know I was always thrilled to hear about your accomplishments, and you always accompanied such posts with a lot of informative commentary that helped the rest of us. I've made a few self-indulgent posts myself, on occasions when I got to places I never expect. I just feel uncomfortable with the sledgehammer approach that's currently in vogue.

That post you referred to was -- amazing...


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> I get that people are excited after a successful giveaway. Really, I do. But I could live without ten threads a day on the same subject. I don't know about you guys and gals, but I *think* I may have the gist of how free seems to be working. But you never know. Maybe the next thread will learn me somthin' new.


But but but KDP Select saved the orphans! And Christmas!!!


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> But but but KDP Select saved the orphans! And Christmas!!!


I hear it went back in time and conceived George Washington out of nothing but midichlorians and awesome.

But that might have just been a rumour.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> I'm okay with that. I engaged in some of that myself last winter when I was really just falling into some luck, so I can forgive it in other newbies. What killed me, though, was that guy whose first post said something like, "I've never written anything before, but I'm just starting my new novel, which I will release at the end of January. Follow this lengthy list of instructions if you want blockbuster sales like I am destined to receive."


I remember that one. I stared at my computer wondering if it was parody. Like the scene in Pride and Prejudice when Lady Catherine de Bourgh says she'd never learned how to play the piano, but if she had, she would've been a great proficient.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> But but but KDP Select saved the orphans! And Christmas!!!


I just got December's cc bill. Right now, I don't give a crap about Christmas. As for orphans, well, maybe Modwitch can help them out. Last I checked she was ranked number #44. Seems the least she can do.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

The self indulgent is fine. Writing is hard, lonely work. And it's fantastic when someone has clearly been busting their butt and seeing very few sales and then suddenly takes off. We get at least one of those a month around here and I love to see the "top 100 in overall store!!!!" post from someone who once sold in the single digits.

But at least release something before dishing out the advice. That guy hadn't even _written _ anything yet.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

daveconifer said:


> That post you referred to was -- amazing...


That's one word for it...


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> The self indulgent is fine. Writing is hard, lonely work. And it's fantastic when someone has clearly been busting their butt and seeing very few sales and then suddenly takes off. We get at least one of those a month around here and I love to see the "top 100 in overall store!!!!" post from someone who once sold in the single digits.
> 
> But at least release something before dishing out the advice. That guy hadn't even _written _ anything yet.


Actually, I don't mind those sorts of posts. I love to see people hitting the top 100 and I read all those threads eagerly (perhaps in the hopes that good sales will rub off by osmosis?). But I find it frustrating when I click on the "OMG I JUST SOLD 1000000 BOOKS IN THE LAST WEEK" posts to find out that not a book was sold. They were all given away via Select or going free. Which, okay, we all know that Select is great and helps you move books. We all know free is great and helps you move books. Do we truly need a new thread hashing out downloads?

And jeez, I sound cranky. I'm totally not! I just miss the days when every discussion wasn't about KDP Select and Free books.


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> But at least release something before dishing out the advice. That guy hadn't even _written _ anything yet.


I remember that post. It was something -that's for sure.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

jillmyles said:


> I just miss the days when every discussion wasn't about KDP Select and Free books.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

MichaelWallace said:


> The self indulgent is fine. Writing is hard, lonely work. And it's fantastic when someone has clearly been busting their butt and seeing very few sales and then suddenly takes off. We get at least one of those a month around here and I love to see the "top 100 in overall store!!!!" post from someone who once sold in the single digits.


I disagree. In my opinion there are far too many new self-congratulatory threads and posts that do nothing but "show the flag." They clutter the board and make it almost useless for any serious exchange of information.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> Actually, I don't mind those sorts of posts. I love to see people hitting the top 100 and I read all those threads eagerly (perhaps in the hopes that good sales will rub off by osmosis?). But I find it frustrating when I click on the "OMG I JUST SOLD 1000000 BOOKS IN THE LAST WEEK" posts to find out that not a book was sold. They were all given away via Select or going free. Which, okay, we all know that Select is great and helps you move books. We all know free is great and helps you move books. Do we truly need a new thread hashing out downloads?
> 
> And jeez, I sound cranky. I'm totally not! I just miss the days when every discussion wasn't about KDP Select and Free books.


My thoughts exactly. I love a great success story and love to cheer along. I just wish we had one organic thread hashing the free downloads instead of half the board being filled with them.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Remember, thread to let us know when it goes free, then a new thread to tell us how the free thing is going, then another explaining your results and why you're happy with free, a new thread discussing the reviews you get from free and whether or not their expectations are fair, and then more thread detailing post-free sales.This is stuff we need to know!!!!


And...I'd like monthly updates (in a different thread), so I can make an informed decision about Select.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Jeff said:


> I disagree. In my opinion there are far too many new self-congratulatory threads and posts that do nothing but "show the flag." They clutter the board and make it almost useless for any serious exchange of information.


I'd like to see people use the collective threads a bit more for these things, since there is a thread for "Gone Free" and a thread for "I posted on my blog" and a thread for "I'm in the Top 100," and various genre threads, etc. I think that's the best middle ground, so people can (deservedly) wave their flag, while not cluttering the Cafe. That seems ideal to me, personally.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Steven Konkoly said:


> And...I'd like monthly updates (in a different thread), so I can make an informed decision about Select.


Like this?


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Jeff said:


> The first thing we do, let's kill all the writers.


Exactly. Besides, writers are largely unnecessary to the business of publishing.


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## mikelewis (May 31, 2011)

I haven't been around much over the last 3 months and I was a bit surprised to see that the Cafe had started to resemble the Voice of the Author/Publisher on the KDP forum -where everyone is talking about going free and promoting their book to other writers.

Where are the insightful threads about what coffee to drink while writing ?  

(currently Taylors special Christmas blend)

Mike


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## Owen (Aug 24, 2011)

mikelewis said:


> Where are the insightful threads about what coffee to drink while writing ?
> 
> (currently Taylors special Christmas blend)
> 
> Mike


Well, when the coffee drinkers disappear for three months, what do you expect!? 

But yes, the rest of us should be starting more interesting threads to dilute it down a bit.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

OwenAdams said:


> Well, when the coffee drinkers disappear for three months, what do you expect!?
> 
> But yes, the rest of us should be starting more interesting threads to dilute it down a bit.


This is a great idea. I'll start one myself!


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

Man, am I seeing myself in this discussion.  I haven't been as active here lately as I should, and therefore didn't realize this had become a problem.  Sorry, guys.  I won't be starting a thread like that again.

How 'bout dem Cowboys?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

R. Doug said:


> Man, am I seeing myself in this discussion. I haven't been as active here lately as I should, and therefore didn't realize this had become a problem. Sorry, guys. I won't be starting a thread like that again.
> 
> How 'bout dem Cowboys?


R. Doug, I don't think the grousing is about anyone in particular (and not meant to slam anyone) as much as just general yakking about the change in the boards.


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## Ursula_Bauer (Dec 12, 2010)

mikelewis said:


> Where are the insightful threads about what coffee to drink while writing ?
> 
> (currently Taylors special Christmas blend)
> 
> Mike


Decaf Lavazzo espresso - a 6 cup maker, 2 heaping tablespoons espresso : 1/2 tsp ground saigon cinnamon. All poured into one giant cup and consumed by author. (You could do it with caff too , just make sure you're not alone in the house in case you code or your heart explodes.) Foamed warm milk w/vanilla optional.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Wow--do I feel stupid.

Though done with an overdose of snarkiness,  you guys have taught those reading this thread a valuable lesson.

My first instinct is to search out every thread I've started and delete them. But I don't even know if I can do that? Or if it would cause even more trouble? I should have read through more of the guidelines. (I have _now_ read the 'Off With Your Thread and Taser Threats')

However, you can bet your bottom dollar I won't be starting any new threads re:KDP. I was not trying to self promote, or I sure wouldn't be doing it _here_. This isn't even my target audience. I thought I was simply helping others make an informed decision based on my experiences, with the marketing tips that worked for me. I honestly didn't know that if I would have searched out an old thread and added to it, it would have put it at the top of the pages. I don't spend much (any?) time in forums, so this is new to me. Live and Learn, right?

Edit: Removed this sentence as it was misconstrued as snarkiness....


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

KayBratt said:


> Wow--do I feel stupid.
> 
> Though done with an overdose of snarkiness,  you guys have taught those reading this thread a valuable lesson.
> 
> ...


Again, I don't think anyone is upset at anyone in particular. It's the general state of the boards, not specific individuals. Certainly don't take it as a 'Get off the boards!' sort of thread. I mean heck, I have started all kinds of threads myself about pricing. (And if I cannot laugh at myself, who can?)


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

KayBratt said:


> Wow--do I feel stupid.
> 
> Though done with an overdose of snarkiness,  you guys have taught those reading this thread a valuable lesson.
> 
> ...


I don't think you need to apologize, Kay. I read your thread and found it informative. I didn't take it as you self-promoting at all. KDP Select is new, so threads on it have sort of overrun the board. Modwitch started an inclusive KDP Select Free thread that hopefully will help clean up the board. The moderators have left it up to us on how we want to do it, so you didn't do anything wrong.


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks, Jill, but it's still perceived as a problem and thus, whether aimed at me or not, I'll be taking it to heart in the future.  That's just how I am.


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## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

Shoot, I haven't had any reason to post for a couple weeks now. I was beginning to think I'd only need to visit once a month. Glad to finally see something like this. And now that I see this, maybe it's time to start visiting again.


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## Owen (Aug 24, 2011)

KayBratt said:


> Next time I'm feeling helpful, I will be more careful where I spread my good intentions.
> 
> Sorry.


Yes, thank god you weren't tempted to be snarky in return or anything.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

R. Doug said:


> Thanks, Jill, but it's still perceived as a problem and thus, whether aimed at me or not, I'll be taking it to heart in the future. That's just how I am.


That's because you're one of the good guys. There will be a lot who don't care and will continue to start these threads.

Mary McDonald started a thread for KDP Select - January which we should all use.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,97792.msg1506977.html#msg1506977

Plus, there is a thread to list when our books go free.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,97167.msg1499156.html#msg1499156


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

R. Doug said:


> Thanks, Jill, but it's still perceived as a problem and thus, whether aimed at me or not, I'll be taking it to heart in the future. That's just how I am.


As will I.

And I didn't take it as a "get off the boards" kind of rant. I see it more as a "Stop Your Self Promo" and a "Get Organized" scolding, which is obviously needed! I do hope authors will continue to share their experiences, though, (on the appropriate thread) as I see that information as inspiration to others who are just starting out. I've been at this Indie craze for 4 years now and I try to give a hand up whenever I can, if even from telling of my own successes and failures so that others can learn from it.


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

Thank you for the links, Gertie.  I just bookmarked them for future reference.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

R. Doug said:


> Thank you for the links, Gertie. I just bookmarked them for future reference.


Good idea. I'm off to do that myself.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> I don't think you need to apologize, Kay. I read your thread and found it informative. I didn't take it as you self-promoting at all. KDP Select is new, so threads on it have sort of overrun the board. Modwitch started an inclusive KDP Select Free thread that hopefully will help clean up the board. The moderators have left it up to us on how we want to do it, so you didn't do anything wrong.


Thanks, Deanna. I have bookmarked the link that Modwitch started for future use. (Very helpful, thank you, Modwitch!)


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Is it just me or is the Writer's Cafe starting to look like the Old Book Bazaar? You old school KBers know what I mean.


Kevis, as an author, I have no idea what you are talking about. As an author, I think it's important that we all support each other no matter what we do. As an author, I once addressed this very issue in my book, "The Way of the Dragon: An Epic Fantasy Series" where the peasant folk constantly talked about their need to be supportive of each other.

In fact, as an author, I'm offended that you would even create this thread, but as an author, I will support you of course.


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## GGKeets (Jan 2, 2012)

genevieveaclark said:


> Reading this thread was like one, long, cathartic primal scream.
> 
> I love you all.


I believe I just spent a solid 2 minutes staring at the intensity of that man's applause.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

GGKeets said:


> I believe I just spent a solid 2 minutes staring at the intensity of that man's applause.


Levels of Internet GIF applause - the Charles Foster Kane is basically the top.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> In fact, as an author, I'm offended that you would even create this thread, but as an author, I will support you of course.


Good to know this Berserker still has a few fans left out there.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Reading this thread was like one, long, cathartic primal scream.
> 
> I love you all.


This is inspiring me for a new thread...


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Kevis, as an author, I have no idea what you are talking about. As an author, I think it's important that we all support each other no matter what we do. As an author, I once addressed this very issue in my book, "The Way of the Dragon: An Epic Fantasy Series" where the peasant folk constantly talked about their need to be supportive of each other.
> 
> In fact, as an author, I'm offended that you would even create this thread, but as an author, I will support you of course.


Peasants being supportive of peasants? Pshaw! Now if they were supportive of authors, particularly KB indie authors enrolled in Select, then I would jump on that book as soon as it went free.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)




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## LilianaHart (Jun 20, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Remember, thread to let us know when it goes free, then a new thread to tell us how the free thing is going, then another explaining your results and why you're happy with free, a new thread discussing the reviews you get from free and whether or not their expectations are fair, and then more thread detailing post-free sales.This is stuff we need to know!!!!


And if I'm not mistaken, though I could have totally misunderstood Ann in Arlington's threat to taser all writers, the moderators want us to do A LOT more of this  Though I think we should propose a word minimum for each post.

For example:

*I Just Went Free!* = nothing less than a 10,000 word explanation, plus a snippet of your free book to entice us all to download the book, therefore assuring that we will start our own threads rhapsodizing everyone else's free books. It's a vicious cycle.

*I got another 1 Star Review!*= nothing less than a 50,000 word explanation and an offer of free gift cards to anyone who will agree to vote the review unhelpful. A trip for two to Vegas is offered if you'll go and write a 5 star review to counteract these bits of writerly terrorism.

*What KDP Select Has Done For Me!*= 25,000 words, plus pictures documenting every hour of the experiment so we can see how your rank has climbed to #315 in the paid store even though you've only sold 12 books. A finder's fee of 10% is given to anyone who actually converts someone new to join KDP Select after your 25,000 word explanation. Everybody wins!


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## Victoria lane &amp; R.T. Fox (Nov 10, 2009)

David remember when you first came out with you're books, you were on every page.  Ha  hi


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## Jack Blaine (May 9, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Remember, thread to let us know when it goes free, then a new thread to tell us how the free thing is going, then another explaining your results and why you're happy with free, a new thread discussing the reviews you get from free and whether or not their expectations are fair, and then more thread detailing post-free sales.This is stuff we need to know!!!!


Damn I had no idea we were supposed to be doing this! Off to create 87 new threads about MY BOOK!!!!!!


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Those of you who've been around here for a while know that I was very much opposed to the idea of a Writer's Cafe. In fact, I was so vocal about it that I upset Harvey - and that's hard to do. The main reason for my opposition was that I feared it would become an undisciplined ghetto of self-promotion. Whether you think that prophesy has come true or not, I think you'll agree that it's become so cluttered that it's difficult to find anything useful.

So here's our problem: How do we clean it up without the help of the already over-worked moderators?

One thing that we might consider is drawing up a set of guidelines and that those of us who routinely greet new authors provides along with their welcome. Another might be to encourage people who start a new, redundant thread, to re-post in the proper existing thread and leave a redirection URL in their original.

Thoughts?


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Jeff said:


> Those of you who've been around here for a while know that I was very much opposed to the idea of a Writer's Cafe. In fact, I was so vocal about it that I upset Harvey - and that's hard to do. The main reason for my opposition was that I feared it would become an undisciplined ghetto of self-promotion. Whether you think that prophesy has come true or not, I think you'll agree that it's become so cluttered that it's difficult to find anything useful.
> 
> So here's our problem: How do we clean it up without the help of the already over-worked moderators?
> 
> ...


When I was a mod on a forum run on vbulletin tech there was a function that came up with a "you may want to post in these preexisting threads" autosearch info box every time someone tried to start a new thread. This worked very well as a prevention of duplicate threads measure, if people wrote descriptive thread titles. Could something like that be implemented?

Leaving URLs to already existing threads is great, but I don't know who has the time to do that for other peoples' threads. In my opinion, it's best if people search for a thread before they post a new one and for people to use descriptive titles and tags (to make the searches work better).

ETA: Of course, the natural state can also work - that way, we can pop in every once in a while, and if there's nothing interesting we move along. In this system, whatever is popular will win out, and those who like it will stay and be happy. It might prompt those of us who don't to be more productive.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

anne_holly said:


> When I was a mod on a forum run on vbulletin tech there was a function that came up with a "you may want to post in these preexisting threads" autosearch info box every time someone tried to start a new thread. This worked very well as a prevention of duplicate threads measure, if people wrote descriptive thread titles. Could something like that be implemented?


I don't think the SMF software has a function like that. But it's a good idea. Maybe Harvey knows some way of implementing it. He's smarter than I am.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Jeff said:


> Those of you who've been around here for a while know that I was very much opposed to the idea of a Writer's Cafe. In fact, I was so vocal about it that I upset Harvey - and that's hard to do. The main reason for my opposition was that I feared it would become an undisciplined ghetto of self-promotion. Whether you think that prophesy has come true or not, I think you'll agree that it's become so cluttered that it's difficult to find anything useful.
> 
> So here's our problem: How do we clean it up without the help of the already over-worked moderators?
> 
> ...


I don't know. Is there anything we can do about it? It seems part of the problem is there are a lot of new arrivals who don't bother to read the forum decorum and just start blasting away with self-promotion from their very first post. Many wiser heads lurk for a while to get a flavor of the board before leaping into threads.

As for the authors who are upset by this thread, let me repeat that as others have pointed out, no one in particular is being pointed at (and yes, some of those KDP Select/free threads did perform a service). But there has been explosion of repetitive threads harping on the same subject ad nauseam (not all of them about Select) and at the detriment of those who seek to have a useful discussion in the Writer's Cafe. There's nothing wrong with celebrating our individual and collective accomplishments. But those of us who have been around long enough on KB have seen this trend before and EACH TIME it has lead to drastic changes and fragmentation of Kindle Boards.

For those who don't know, Kindle Boards is not an author-centric forum. There wasn't always a Book Bazaar or Writer's Cafe. Our collective enthusiasm created unwanted ripples with our non-author members and resulted in the creation of these child-boards. I, for one, would like to avoid seeing a repeat performance. But if the prevailing wisdom is to continue business as usual and clutter up the boards with any number of repetitious, useless, overly self-indulging and not so cleverly disguised self promotional threads, then so be it.


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## melissafmiller (Feb 17, 2011)

mikelewis said:


> I haven't been around much over the last 3 months and I was a bit surprised to see that the Cafe had started to resemble the Voice of the Author/Publisher on the KDP forum -where everyone is talking about going free and promoting their book to other writers.
> 
> Where are the insightful threads about what coffee to drink while writing ?
> 
> ...


Majorca organic cubano. Also permissible to drink while staring out the window/pretending to write.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

The problem is those who are using the Cafe to get around the self-promotion rules.

We have a Virtual Pub thread to post our milestones, yet there are constant threads popping up for individual accomplishments in the Cafe. Just using that thread alone would eliminate a ton of clutter. I'm as happy as the next person when someone else has a book signing or a great review or whatever, but I tend to ignore those threads because there are so many of them.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,29394.msg540273.html#msg540273

I think the best we can do is keep bumping the central threads so they stay up top and post links to them whenever we can in the individual threads. We'll never eliminate all the duplication of things like pricing questions, but we can at least try to steer people to the free, KDP Mega thread and the Virtual Pub.

No one has the time to do all of this, but I'll make the commitment that if I see one of the inappropriate threads, I'll post the link to one of the three I mentioned.

As for pricing, thoughts and (dare I say it) algorithms constantly change, so fresh discussions on that issue may be beneficial.


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## melissafmiller (Feb 17, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Heresy. This is what scotch is for.


Ah, so this is what I've been doing wrong!


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2012)

Let's face it. The self-congratulatory and group-hug threads suck. It ain't "support"--it's wasted pixels. Whether those who think "the good ol' days" were better are correct or not isn't the point because they always _look _ better.

We're stuck with a board that is moderated to the point of pablum served cold. No talk about politics, or horrors, religion, or anything even a mile away from an argument, because the quilted one will swoop down at the merest hint of smoke (and sometimes it's only steam). While I'm sure the mods are nice ladies who would be fun to have a beer with (or a cup of tea), we're writers, for petesake--no topic should be off limits. All of this led me to postulate that the only good threads are those which get locked. It means some real stuff is going on there. (And many great writers are ugly, dammit!)

Maybe we need a FAQ thread where the mods could put their efforts to better use by moving the redundant threads there under a plethora of headings.

Writers are certainly not representative of the populace. Many are whiny, insecure, bitchy, know-it-alls who often worship at the shrine of the muse and who feel entitled. I am grateful for those who are hermits, who are absent through choice or agoraphobia--boardaphobia is a word? The most fun I've had on here is being called names in PMs by one cheeky dame who presented talking points but ended with not wishing to hear mine. Oh yeah, and those locked threads.

I shall endeavor to start more threads which lead to genuine interaction, but you'll have to look fast before the thought police move in.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2012)

Love how it's the folks with 6,000-8,000 posts complaining about excessive posting. Give the new members a break. The tone of these boards has taken on a sour tinge over the last year, and it's not because of the new posters. If anything, they're a breath of fresh air.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

I found a lot of the talk about KDP Select to be very helpful. It gave me a good perspective on the whole thing, allowing me to see it differently than when I read Amazon's first few promotional pieces about it. I wound up taking a shot with it and my sales have increased exponentially, at least for a while. Who knows how long that will last?

But I'd like to say, very respectfully, that most (but not all) of those here who are pooh-poohing all the KDP Select threads APPEAR to be authors who are already selling thousands of books every month. Their posts come off as ivory-tower elitism and it's not making them look good.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2012)

Mike Dennis said:


> I found a lot of the talk about KDP Select to be very helpful. It gave me a good perspective on the whole thing, allowing me to see it differently than when I read Amazon's first few promotional pieces about it. I wound up taking a shot with it and my sales have increased exponentially, at least for a while. Who knows how long that will last?
> 
> But I'd like to say, very respectfully, that most (but not all) of those here who are pooh-poohing all the KDP Select threads APPEAR to be authors who are already selling thousands of books every month. Their posts come off as ivory-tower elitism and it's not making them look good.


Very well put. Oh, and Mike, I LOVE your website!


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Mike Dennis said:


> I found a lot of the talk about KDP Select to be very helpful. It gave me a good perspective on the whole thing, allowing me to see it differently than when I read Amazon's first few promotional pieces about it. I wound up taking a shot with it and my sales have increased exponentially, at least for a while. Who knows how long that will last?
> 
> But I'd like to say, very respectfully, that most (but not all) of those here who are pooh-poohing all the KDP Select threads APPEAR to be authors who are already selling thousands of books every month. Their posts come off as ivory-tower elitism and it's not making them look good.


Some awfully good points made....


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

genevieveaclark said:


> I don't think anyone's complaining about sharing information. They're lamenting the clutter of redundant threads that add no new information, and thus seem aimed more at self-promotion. It's always annoying in forums when you get a rash of posters who don't take the time to read other posts; it's the equivalent of trying to have a conversation with someone who doesn't care to listen, and only waits for their turn to speak.


I agree with this and the best way to handle those kind of posters is to just ignore them. My feeling is if any post sparks discussion then it has some merit.

I have mixed feelings about the "My Latest Accomplishment" threads that then get a gazillion "congratulations". I do it, too, so I'm certainly not going to criticize anyone who does it. But sometimes I feel guilty if I don't have the time to congratulate everyone who has achieved a goal.


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

I've only been hanging around these boards for a few months. I've found many of the threads interesting and enlightening. It's really not fair to blame newbies for all of the redundant threads. I've seen several posts about KDP-Select by people with hundreds, if not thousands of posts to their name. You would think no one has talked about this at all based on some of the threads. I think people post what they are thinking about, and if they haven't been in the forums for awhile, they don't realize how many threads are running rampant. The simplest way to solve the redundant threads is to create sticky threads of the most popular topics. For example:

Discuss KDP-Select
Discuss Your Experience Going "Free"
Post a Link to Your Free Book
Discuss Amazon Rankings and Algorithms
Post Your Book's Milestones
Discuss Obtaining and Handling Reviews

If these hot topics were stickies at the top of the forum, then if someone started a new thread it could simply be moved to the sticky, or someone could say, "Hey! This goes in the sticky thread up top." 

This would be such an easy thing to do. If the threads are buried deep in the forum, you can't expect everyone to a) know that they are there, and b) take the time to search for them.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> We're stuck with a board that is moderated to the point of pablum served cold. No talk about politics, or horrors, religion, or anything even a mile away from an argument, because the quilted one will swoop down at the merest hint of smoke (and sometimes it's only steam). While I'm sure the mods are nice ladies who would be fun to have a beer with (or a cup of tea), we're writers, for petesake--no topic should be off limits.


Actually, I'm really glad that there is no politics/religion/etc talk on this board. I prefer for it to be about self-publishing.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

jillmyles said:


> Actually, I'm really glad that there is no politics/religion/etc talk on this board. I prefer for it to be about self-publishing.


Amen. I know where to go if I want to bicker with far-right knuckleheads people.


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

I agree with everything in those recent posts from Mike Angel and Mike Dennis.

I for (another) one found great information in the many posts on Kindle Select, especially the ones talking about their numbers and success stories.  In fact, using the information I found here, I pretty much paid off the production costs of my book in a few days of December (is that self-promotion/congratulation, or is it interesting information?).  Then I came back here to return the favor and provide some info on what I did and what worked.  BTW, if that's self promotion, I don't think it sells very many books. I know I don't buy books after hearing about the marketing techniques. But I definitely appreciate the conversation. 

And I totally agree with Angel's post.  Authors are, generally speaking, people with something interesting to say.  If they were more free to talk, this might be a more interesting place.  I hope it's not on the road to becoming like the discussion boards on Amazon.com.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Jeez....I really thought that since everyone was confused about how the select thing would work, that people wanted to know results.  I've been giving a play by play as I thought it woud be helpful to others in deciding if this was something they wanted to do.

I've been here long enough that if any of you wanted my book, you would have bought it by now so the thread postings weren't about promotion.  But now I feel like a creep after reading this thread.  I was going to post the final results today in money terms but I won't now.  I will just say that if anyone wants to know how it worked out for me, they can send me a PM so I don't further defile the boards.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> I found a lot of the talk about KDP Select to be very helpful. It gave me a good perspective on the whole thing, allowing me to see it differently than when I read Amazon's first few promotional pieces about it. I wound up taking a shot with it and my sales have increased exponentially, at least for a while. Who knows how long that will last?
> 
> But I'd like to say, very respectfully, that most (but not all) of those here who are pooh-poohing all the KDP Select threads APPEAR to be authors who are already selling thousands of books every month. Their posts come off as ivory-tower elitism and it's not making them look good.


And see, I don't find the talk about KDP Select interesting, but that's because it doesn't fit with my business model. So this is a good point - YMMV and all that. I was actually going to suggest a child board for KDP Select, but since we're already a child board, I thought my suggestion would be kind of stupid.

In all honesty, I don't know what the solution is.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> And I totally agree with Angel's post. Authors are, generally speaking, people with something interesting to say. If they were more free to talk, this might be a more interesting place.


Nobody says they aren't free to talk -- they just have to do it in an appropriate place, like in the Not Quite Kindle forum.

You wouldn't go to a Chinese restaurant and sulk because you can't get a pizza, would you?


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> Nobody says they aren't free to talk -- they just have to do it in an appropriate place, like in the Not Quite Kindle forum.
> 
> You wouldn't go to a Chinese restaurant and sulk because you can't get a pizza, would you?


I agree in principle, but when enough people sulk, the Chinese restaurant puts one of these on the menu:


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## jhendereson (Oct 22, 2010)

Confused again! Someone like myself who isn't used to huge downloads, be it free or otherwise, is going to be goofy with glee when their novel turns positive and can't wait to run here and tell everybody. What's the problem? Notice most of these threads go unread. Why begrudge someone who has what he or she thinks is great news to report? Was it so great when the same authors reported how many thousands were sold and how much money was made? I don't think so, and I'm still trying to understand how much money someone else makes can be considered useful and encouraging information. So why not let the little guy have his turn on the stage?


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## John Avery (Nov 20, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> Jeez....I really thought that since everyone was confused about how the select thing would work, that people wanted to know results. I've been giving a play by play as I thought it woud be helpful to others in deciding if this was something they wanted to do.
> 
> I've been here long enough that if any of you wanted my book, you would have bought it by now so the thread postings weren't about promotion. But now I feel like a creep after reading this thread. I was going to post the final results today in money terms but I won't now. I will just say that if anyone wants to know how it worked out for me, they can send me a PM so I don't further defile the boards.


Thanks, Jeanne and Mike. As KB newbie I look to others to learn, and I try to contribute so that other's may learn from my experience. What feels like a lot of books to me may be a joke to the Elite KB gurus, but other new authors may appreciate what I've gone through to get here, and how exciting ANY sales can be.

We're out here trying to get started along with MILLIONS of others. It wasn't always that way. I feel like the new kid at school who wore the wrong pants.

- john


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

It's probably pointless to argue the point any further since everyone's already taken a side. But when I started this thread, I wasn't even referring to the Select threads, but rather the authors who are blatantly posting threads that belong in The Book Bazaar in this forum, because, as another author noted above, they are trying to get around the forum rules on self-promotion. Once you add 100 different threads every hour on the hour about KDP Select and _"Look Ma! My free book has been downloaded a gazillion times!!!"_, it gets to be a chore to find even one thread not about the aforementioned subjects.

This wouldn't be an issue, if we made a more concerted effort to avoid duplicate threads. But the willful and reckless creation of endless threads on the same subject IS ruining the quality of the discussions in this forum. But as I mentioned before, if this is the kind of forum we want to have, then go for it. Just don't be surprised when some draconian rule gets imposed that stifles our liberal use of these forums. _Again._


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

John Avery said:


> We're out here trying to get started along with MILLIONS of others. It wasn't always that way. I feel like the new kid at school who wore the wrong pants.


Remember, this is a snapshot of opinions, and there are plenty of people around here (myself included) who don't mind seeing someone excited by the first taste of success.


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## John Avery (Nov 20, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Remember, this is a snapshot of opinions, and there are plenty of people around here (myself included) who don't mind seeing someone excited by the first taste of success.


Good for this Dr. Seuss to hear, Michael.


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> Nobody says they aren't free to talk -- they just have to do it in an appropriate place, like in the Not Quite Kindle forum.
> 
> You wouldn't go to a Chinese restaurant and sulk because you can't get a pizza, would you?


Well, I'm not trying to argue with you, and maybe I don't really understand the subtleties of these boards (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic), but using your example, if I went to a Chinese restaurant I would expect Chinese food, and if I went to a discussion board called "The Writer's Cafe" I'd hope to find writers talking about anything they want to talk about.

That's what I hope to find here, anyway.


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## GGKeets (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm sort of torn on this. There have been plenty of "repetitive" threads that have offered unique and valuable insights. To be honest though, there aren't so many to where that's the only thing that can be found on the first couple of thread pages. They're easily spotted and just as easy to ignore. Not to mention they disappear fast because most users don't bother responding.

What's annoying though is when someone posts a comment to those threads about how annoying the thread is. Then they're just contributing to bumping it.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I can see how some people would feel bad about some of the comments made in this thread. I apologize if I was one of the posters that contributed to that.

I love the success stories. All of them. I'm really interested in hearing about how Select is working for everyone. Nothing beats raw data. I just hope we can consolidate those threads so when I want to read about Select, and how it's going, there's one thread to go to. And when I want to read about something else other than Select, I don't have to wade through three pages of virtually the same type of posts.

Jeannie, I bought your book _after_ it went unfree. I've been sick for four days now and it was just the thing to cheer me up. I'd love to hear how it all shook out for you in the end. Please consider posting in Modwitch's mega thread.


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## Owen (Aug 24, 2011)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Well, I'm not trying to argue with you, and maybe I don't really understand the subtleties of these boards (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic), but using your example, if I went to a Chinese restaurant I would expect Chinese food, and if I went to a discussion board called "The Writer's Cafe" I'd hope to find writers talking about anything they want to talk about.
> 
> That's what I hope to find here, anyway.


How about this. You got to a Chinese restaurant and light up a cigarette. The manager comes over and politely informs you that you're in the non-smoking section and offers to show you to the smoking section. You tell him that it's fine, you won't smoke and you like your current table. After he leaves you spend the rest of the meal saying loudly "Hey, you know what goes great with Chinese food? Cigarettes!"

It's not that we don't want people to self promote. It's that there's an area for that and an area for people who just want to have a conversation without people flogging their books. The problem is not excited new authors, giddy with childish glee like elves on Christmas, spreading love and goodwill wherever they go.

It's perfectly normal people who aren't respecting a perfectly reasonable boundary. That's fine, it happens. But we're allowed to ask them to keep off the grass. It's not illegal, just good habits.


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## soofy (Nov 26, 2011)

As with all forums, topics are fleeting. Six months from now the buzz of Kindle Select promotion will have likely died down and new discussions will come to the fore. I found the first lot of Kindle Select threads very informative and encouraging especially during the Christmas period and I enjoy congratulating authors on their success. There is a thin line however between discussing the phenomena of Kindle Select and pushing a book. However, if someone feels that the board is stagnating they should make an imaginative thread or poll to stir it up a little. I think it's time for my writer's motto: Have a cup of tea; stay calm and write!


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> I love the success stories. All of them. I'm really interested in hearing about how Select is working for everyone. Nothing beats raw data. I just hope we can consolidate those threads so when I want to read about Select, and how it's going, there's one thread to go to. And when I want to read about something else other than Select, I don't have to wade through three pages of virtually the same type of posts.


Deanna, that's nice of you to clarify and apologize to those who took offense. I really think if it had been said like this in the first place, rather than using comments and insults to make the (now bewildered) newbies to this board feel as if they were unprofessional self-promoting idiots, it would have come across as a helpful tidbit meant to clean up the boards and inform authors on the right way to post. And really, the sarcasm from some continues to flow long after the point has been made.

edit: Deanna, btw, I didn't see anything from you that you should apologize for!


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## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

jhendereson said:


> Confused again! Someone like myself who isn't used to huge downloads, be it free or otherwise, is going to be goofy with glee when their novel turns positive and can't wait to run here and tell everybody. What's the problem? Notice most of these threads go unread. Why begrudge someone who has what he or she thinks is great news to report? Was it so great when the same authors reported how many thousands were sold and how much money was made? I don't think so, and I'm still trying to understand how much money someone else makes can be considered useful and encouraging information. So why not let the little guy have his turn on the stage?


I have to agree with this. I think there's a few too many high horses saddled up and riding around this thread. And I certainly dislike the idea of "more rules" - self-imposed or otherwise.

I kind of sigh when I see things like this occur. I mean, it's really so very simple: if you see a thread that you don't like or that doesn't interest you...DON'T READ IT!

Sorry for shouting, but honestly.


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## Owen (Aug 24, 2011)

KayBratt said:


> I really think if it had been said like this in the first place, rather than using comments and insults to make the (now bewildered) newbies to this board feel as if they were unprofessional self-promoting idiots, it would have come across as a helpful tidbit meant to clean up the boards and inform authors on the right way to post. And really, the sarcasm from some continues to flow long after the point has been made.


With respect, this was said in the first place, and I think you're being a little disingenuous.

There are rules and FAQs posted all over the place, you said yourself that there were two threads on the subject you hadn't read, and a cursory look at where topics were happening (and where others were being moved) would have filled anyone in on the rest.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that this thread has morphed into a parallel set of civil wars (new member vs. old member, high post count vs. low post count, big seller vs. little seller). I don't think the "sins" being discussed are particular to any of these groups, although it makes for a fun thread when we choose up sides like that. Just because the forum was different 18 months ago than it is now doesn't mean that all the new members forced the change and all the old members resisted it.

I doubt that there's anybody that doesn't like to see a writer get giddy about making it big, especially in a group of friends like this one.

After reading this thread I've actually changed my mind. I think it should be allowed to evolve however the majority of members see fit, with those that aren't happy with it moving on to other places (which do exist)...


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

OwenAdams said:


> How about this. You got to a Chinese restaurant and light up a cigarette. The manager comes over and politely informs you that you're in the non-smoking section and offers to show you to the smoking section. You tell him that it's fine, you won't smoke and you like your current table. After he leaves you spend the rest of the meal saying loudly "Hey, you know what goes great with Chinese food? Cigarettes!"
> 
> It's not that we don't want people to self promote. It's that there's an area for that and an area for people who just want to have a conversation without people flogging their books. The problem is not excited new authors, giddy with childish glee like elves on Christmas, spreading love and goodwill wherever they go.
> 
> It's perfectly normal people who aren't respecting a perfectly reasonable boundary. That's fine, it happens. But we're allowed to ask them to keep off the grass. It's not illegal, just good habits.


What you wrote is very true, but there are some things on this forum that don't necessarily cross the line and in fact, are fine in small doses. As far as KDP Select goes, there's no question that this has dominated the board in the last month. I'm expecting it to settle down eventually. How can it not? Either it will do so naturally or the board rules will change to limit these types of discussions to certain threads.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

daveconifer said:


> After reading this thread I've actually changed my mind. I think it should be allowed to evolve however the majority of members see fit, with those that aren't happy with it moving on to other places (which do exist)...


Oh, no. I don't like the sound of that.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Jeff said:


> Oh, no. I don't like the sound of that.


It's true! The internet is round! We don't fall off if we go past the horizon of KB! There are Other Worlds out there!

I have seen them.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Jeff said:


> Oh, no. I don't like the sound of that.


I don't either, Jeff, and I'm sure I'll stick around and poke my head in sometimes. But threads like this, full of snark, high horses and straw men, aren't much fun (to me, at least). At this point I'm willing to kick the scroll button into high gear rather than have a civil war...


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

anne_holly said:


> It's true! The internet is round! We don't fall off if we go past the horizon of KB! There are Other Worlds out there!
> 
> I have seen them.


Well, if I've said anything that would make anyone want to leave Kindleboards, I take it back. My suggestion for establishing guidelines was intended to make the board better for everyone, not drive them away. Mea culpa.


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## Danielle Kazemi (Apr 2, 2011)

Just throw some hard butterscotch candies at the oldies and they will forget everything. Or start a conversation about how the cost of stamps has risen over the years.  Select is still new and a novelty. Let people post their numbers. Otherwise I have to read countless posts toting the impressiveness of the Almighty King or His Lordship John Locke. The excitement will die down - to quote... someone I forgot... This too shall pass.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Jeff said:


> Well, if I've said anything that would make anyone want to leave Kindleboards, I take it back. My suggestion for establishing guidelines was intended to make the board better for everyone, not drive them away. Mea culpa.


I didn't find anything in your posts upsetting. I'm actually fairly fond of order and variety, though I know that's just my opinion. I agree that considering if there are simple ways to clean up the forums without putting it on the mods is a good idea, as long as the majority of the posters are willing to go along with those measures and take that task on.

But I do also agree with Dave that there are places to suit all tastes and moods. It doesn't have to be a one or the other thing, either. Sometimes here, sometimes there, depending on the need/want. No one forum can be all things to all posters.


----------



## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

OwenAdams said:


> With respect, this was said in the first place, and I think you're being a little disingenuous. There are rules and FAQs posted all over the place, you said yourself that there were two threads on the subject you hadn't read, and a cursory look at where topics were happening (and where others were being moved) would have filled anyone in on the rest.


Again, it was the _way _ it was said that is the issue. I am not sure what you want from me, OwenAdams? I've already admitted my personal wrongdoing in not reading through every rule and faq posted, and I have pledged to only post in the appropriate places in the future. In addition, I'm not sure which definition of disingenuous I am being accused of. If it is disingenuous #1, I've already taken account for my faults and I withhold nothing. If it is #2, I can't be any more sincere than I am at this moment. I hereby beg a truce if you will see fit to award.

Definitions of disingenuous (adj)
dis·in·gen·u·ous [ dìssin jénnyoo əss ] 
1. withholding information: withholding or not taking account of known information
2. not genuinely sincere: giving a false impression of sincerity or simplicity


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm sick of oodles of self-promotional threads, of course, self-promotion is often in the eye of the beholder. That said, my current gripe is that we here in the WC are stuck in a tweener world where some, but not all of the rules of elsewhere apply. Self-promotion is okay except when the mods say it isn't. Off-topic is okay except when the mods say it isn't. We're free to police ourselves, but we have no actual mechanism to do it. We either need the same rules (much more moderation) as the rest or we need to be free to truly police/express ourselves as adults with only the most egregious naughtiness bringing about moderation. Ymmv.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Remember, thread to let us know when it goes free, then a new thread to tell us how the free thing is going, then another explaining your results and why you're happy with free, a new thread discussing the reviews you get from free and whether or not their expectations are fair, and then more thread detailing post-free sales.This is stuff we need to know!!!!


Easy for the guy with... like... a kazillion sales per day to say. 



MichaelWallace said:


> I'm okay with that. I engaged in some of that myself last winter when I was really just falling into some luck, so I can forgive it in other newbies. What killed me, though, was that guy whose first post said something like, "I've never written anything before, but I'm just starting my new novel, which I will release at the end of January. Follow this lengthy list of instructions if you want blockbuster sales like I am destined to receive."


Oh, lord, I remember that thread.

I could understand it and even take part when Select first started and we were trying to figure out what was going to work. Well, heck, I still am since sometimes it works really great and other time not so much so. Just label me clueless. It would be nice to keep the whole thing to a couple of threads, but I'm not betting on it.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Stop being so reasonable Canadian reasonable.
> 
> I'm offended by it. You are treading dangerously close to a fish slapping.


Terribly sorry for causing offense. Will try harder next time.

Umm... Burn the witches? Join or die? Is that better?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I'm grateful to everyone who shared their Select experiences. I learned a lot.


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## Owen (Aug 24, 2011)

KayBratt said:


> Again, it was the _way _ it was said that is the issue. I am not sure what you want from me, OwenAdams? I've already admitted my personal wrongdoing in not reading through every rule and faq posted, and I have pledged to only post in the appropriate places in the future. In addition, I'm not sure which definition of disingenuous I am being accused of. If it is disingenuous #1, I've already taken account for my faults and I withhold nothing. If it is #2, I can't be any more sincere than I am at this moment. I hereby beg a truce if you will see fit to award.


It might have been the _way_ it was said, but you did suggest there was something wrong with the many ways it had already been said. I disagree.

I don't want anything from anyone, I just think it's unfair to attack people for having a bit of a joke. A joke that comes not at the expense of any one individual being singled out, but at a general trend of behaviour.

As for disingenuous, definition number 2.

We are all adults here, and yet you seem incapable of offering either an apology, a defense or a complaint with slipping a backhanded remark in somewhere. Case in point, you beg a truce (ignoring for the moment that I have hardly attacked you, and tried only to respond as fairly as I can to points that you yourself have brought up) "if I will see fit to award." You have complained about the sarcasm and snarkiness in this thread, but until you arrived with your (very) thinly veiled attacks, it was mostly gentle and in good humour.

Nobody had drawn these posters into an argument or bitten their head off, they saw something that was frustrating them and took it to another thread.

You seem to think I'm waging some campaign against you, I can assure you this is not the case. I just don't like it when someone chooses to skirt around the edges taking pot shots, and then cries foul when someone calls them out on it.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Monique said:


> I'm sick of oodles of self-promotional threads, of course, self-promotion is often in the eye of the beholder. That said, my current gripe is that we here in the WC are stuck in a tweener world where some, but not all of the rules of elsewhere apply. Self-promotion is okay except when the mods say it isn't. Off-topic is okay except when the mods say it isn't. We're free to police ourselves, but we have no actual mechanism to do it. We either need the same rules (much more moderation) as the rest or we need to be free to truly police/express ourselves as adults with only the most egregious naughtiness bringing about moderation.


You know you're one of my favorite people, Monique, but this board is so active that it would take three moderators to police it. The best bet, in my opinion, would be for all the writers who enjoy the WC to agree on some very basic organization and then help others understand the structure. Of course, a free-for-all is sometimes fun too.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Jeff said:


> You know you're one of my favorite people, Monique, but this board is so active that it would take three moderators to police it. The best bet, in my opinion, would be for all the writers who enjoy the WC to agree on some very basic organization and then help others understand the structure. Of course, a free-for-all is sometimes fun too.


Thank you and back at ya. 

I much prefer the free-for-all. Personally, I'm not a fan of lots of moderation. It's the unevenness here that troubles me though. In the end, we're adults (mostly) and I'd *much* rather see the ability to post honestly and have real discussions (even if they sometimes veer into ugly).


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

OwenAdams said:


> I just think it's unfair to attack people for having a bit of a joke.
> 
> You have complained about the sarcasm and snarkiness in this thread, but until you arrived with your (very) thinly veiled attacks, it was mostly gentle and in good humour.
> 
> Nobody had drawn these posters into an argument or bitten their head off, they saw something that was frustrating them and took it to another thread.


 "Gentle and in good humour"? Are we on the same planet here? And now this entire thread is _my_ fault? Priceless.

I tried to take the high road and apologize for what I'm now not even sure for, and now I'm done here. I regret having even taken part in this entire unprofessional thread, and I need to get back to my weekend wordcount pledge. To those of you who have sent me pm's over this nonsense, thank you for your support.

Point goes to Owen.


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

Now that everyone has had a lot of fun discussing the merits of multiple threads and self-promotion, it's time to get ready for the deluge of threads that will occur when everyone finds out how much authors make per borrow in KDP-Select. I predict the eye of Hurricane Amazon will cross WC next Sunday. This is serious business, people. Make sure you are prepared.

KDP-Select Thread(S) Emergency Preparation Kit:

1. Put on a hard hat and earplugs.
2. Pop the popcorn ahead of time.
3. Bring lots of caffeine.
4. Wear a safety shield.
5. Bring a whip and a paddle
6. Don't forget the chocolate.
7. Pack the fire extinguisher.
8. Bring plenty of napkins for spewing.
9. For Pete's sake, don't forget your data & experience.
10. And for those with a weaker constitution -keep on scrolling.


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## Owen (Aug 24, 2011)

KayBratt said:


> I tried to take the high road and apologize


Well, I'm sorry we couldn't have this conversation like adults. But, apologies that end with "Next time I'm feeling helpful, I will be more careful where I spread my good intentions." don't seem like sincere apologies, and don't meet my definition of the high road.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I must admit I've considered leaving for another forum but the writers forum where indie/SP/what-ever-you-call-it isn't a matter for instant flames are so rare and where there is active discussion, I end up coming back. The self-promotion has annoying and we're all getting a bit snarky (although i started out snarky and Krista is the snark queen).  

I think moderation is absolutely necessary and considering the heavy-handed moderation I've seen elsewhere, that  have no complaint about except that they haven't quite figured out how to handles the new spate of self-promo.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Krista is the snark queen


Kissy fingers


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

ETS PRESS said:


> Now that everyone has had a lot of fun discussing the merits of multiple threads and self-promotion, it's time to get ready for the deluge of threads that will occur when everyone finds out how much authors make per borrow in KDP-Select. I predict the eye of Hurricane Amazon will cross WC next Sunday. This is serious business, people. Make sure you are prepared.
> 
> KDP-Select Thread(S) Emergency Preparation Kit:
> 
> ...


I think I'll just head for the storm cellar with a good supply of Cheetos and Coke.

Edit: Maybe I can scrounge up my old copies of Neverwinter Nights or something. Sounds like a plan.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

One thing that strikes me is that there will be board members who wouldn't start their own thread but who have valuable feedback about KDP/Free.  If everyone posts their own thread then we mostly hear about the successes, or perhaps the failures.  There is probably a large volume of important data somewhere inbetween that we're missing out on because people think it's not worthy enough of remark to justify a new thread.  

Having dedicated threads enables everyone to feel free to participate.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Attebery said:


> Love how it's the folks with 6,000-8,000 posts complaining about excessive posting. Give the new members a break. The tone of these boards has taken on a sour tinge over the last year, and it's not because of the new posters. If anything, they're a breath of fresh air.


Consider the fact that I've been on these boards for over three years. I led the first Kindleboards book club for 10 months. I've been very active in the tagging threads and the NQK forum. You'll find very little self-promotion in my posts relative to the number.

And I don't sell a gazillion books. I suppose if I did, you would condemn me for that too, and say that I'm unqualified to express an opinion.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

T.L. Haddix said:


> That is how I see this new movement of self-congratulatory self-publishers.


I want to have your babies. Though, would you mind waiting in line because I've already volunteered to host a few other babies?


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

T.L. Haddix said:


> But I'm a girl-cat. I don't have the requisite parts.


Does that mean you can't be my hero?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Jeanne, I'm definitely not talking about you, so please don't think that - you're one of the nicest, least predatory people on this board.


Did you mean me? Careful there, bud... erm cat-girl. I have a reputation to protect. 


genevieveaclark said:


> I think tequila will be in order, personally. Tastes like bitter tears and shame. 'S perfect.


I generally go with Scotch. It has that slight taste of smoke and ashes. But not with Coke. *shudder*


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I'm feeling quite snubbed, actually.
> 
> But that's what tequila is for!


Look, there's a line up outside the door. Pick a number and have a drink while you wait.


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

I too have noticed a subtle shift in the tone of the threads.  The thinly veiled self-promotion threads are obnoxious.  But it would be a hard thing to really monitor or quantify.  Say someone posts a link to their blog.  Yes, it's their blog.  But often times I do find the links/posts to be helpful.  Part of the purpose of the writer's cafe is for us to help each other.

I do think a reasonable thing would be to consolidate all the excitement and sorrow threads.   When we sell a ton of books or get a bad review, of course we want to share.  But there's no reason to have 50 individual threads doing so.  It could be an easy change.  If you want sympathy, go to this thread.  If you want to squee, go to this one.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Alain Gomez said:


> I too have noticed a subtle shift in the tone of the threads. The thinly veiled self-promotion threads are obnoxious. But it would be a hard thing to really monitor or quantify. Say someone posts a link to their blog. Yes, it's their blog. But often times I do find the links/posts to be helpful. Part of the purpose of the writer's cafe is for us to help each other.
> 
> I do think a reasonable thing would be to consolidate all the excitement and sorrow threads. When we sell a ton of books or get a bad review, of course we want to share. But there's no reason to have 50 individual threads doing so. It could be an easy change. If you want sympathy, go to this thread. If you want to squee, go to this one.


We've had a SQUEE thread for about a year and a half now.

Let's hear your reason to celebrate. The Virtual Pub is open for all to share!

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,29394.msg540273.html#msg540273


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Remember, thread to let us know when it goes free, then a new thread to tell us how the free thing is going, then another explaining your results and why you're happy with free, a new thread discussing the reviews you get from free and whether or not their expectations are fair, and then more thread detailing post-free sales.This is stuff we need to know!!!!


Oops. Putting myself in the Time Out corner now.

But in the "stuff we need to know" column... I had 3 tacos from Taco Bell today, and my stomach feels kind of funny. Any connection?


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Learnmegood said:


> But in the "stuff we need to know" column... I had 3 tacos from Taco Bell today, and my stomach feels kind of funny. Any connection?


That depends. Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Girl cats can be heroes, too.
> 
> No, I meant Jeanne Miller. I forgot your name is also Jeanne. But the same statement applies.


Whew. You had me worried there for a moment. I assure you she's much nicer than I ever considered being.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

jillmyles said:


> Actually, I'm really glad that there is no politics/religion/etc talk on this board. I prefer for it to be about self-publishing.


I agree with Jill 100%.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Easy for the guy with... like... a kazillion sales per day to say.


Someone once sent this to me in a private message, after I called him out for using a sock puppet (and shortly before this person was banned from the KB):



> You have this youthful sense of goodness that will fade as you gain age and life experience, as you learn that the sales and the money are more important because your little girl will need an education and a car and a wedding and all of that. She won't care how you Hussled it up, only that you cared enough to do it.


At that time, I was making 1/100th my current income. I didn't agree then, and I don't now. It doesn't matter how many sales I have. I don't like giant, hand-waving "Buy my book, buy my book!" threads. I don't like authors who view their potential customers as mindless sheep to be herded instead of readers to be entertained. I don't like people who skirt the rules, and even break them, all with the intention of shoving a book into your face. Every author's books are their babies, I get that, but using that excuse to clutter and spam and justify inappropriate or rude behavior just hurts someone _else's_ baby.

When I first started, a thread on the Amazon forums by someone recommending your book could nab you sales. I know one who guy who simply said "I just finished this book, was great, and pretty cheap!" and nabbed like thirty in an hour. Now most are a ghost town, all because indie authors spammed, spammed, spammed, some even using sock puppets to recommend their books. The mods have done a phenomenal job keeping things under control here, they have. It takes five seconds to swing by the Book Corner, or even look here in the Cafe, to see someone who's posted a thread in the wrong spot, or blatantly advertising and bumping beyond the rules, and it takes maybe a few minutes before it has a big MOVED text at the start of its title. If the mods literally packed up and vanished for just a month, this forum would be a different place.

Anyhoo, you can quote that comment all you want. I don't mean to imply every single KDP thread is spam. I don't mean that only successful authors are allowed to start them. All I'm poking fun at is the many, many times where it just feels like certain KDP threads we have are just blatant look-at-me attempts for downloads, which by itself isn't a big deal, but there's a looot of authors even in this little subsection. This thread started as a slight joke toward the tons of people who were promoting in the Cafe, on a day where it just seemed particularly bad compared to normal.

All that being said...seriously, you guys think this is bad? I should try to find some of the locked conversations from Cafe past, back when we had the *real* hardcore spammers and trolls. Think of what the very initial post is saying: the board looks a little now like it used to be, _implying back then was actually worse._ There was a period of time where people were led here by comments such as those by Konrath who said they did no advertising other than mentioning a new book release on Kindleboards. Thankfully that period has passed, and most come here for advice now instead of the expectation of uber sales...

Not going to go into whether or not the board is better/worse/changed/crankier/cluttered. I've been here too long, and probably look back too fondly at when no one had a clue what was possible, and the prevailing opinion was that hardly anyone was going to make a dime playing such a fool's game.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

B.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Thank you, David.

We were here before The Book Bazaar became a necessity because of blatant spammers. We had tons of hit and run authors pushing their way into inappropriate threads. Then the real book threads in the Bazaar got lost among the thinly veiled promotional threads, and so the Cafe was born. 

There will always be people who try to circumvent the system, and those who are the responsible citizens of a forum like KB get lumped in with the spammers and hit and run authors. I just hope the dust settles before we see another split.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2012)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Consider the fact that I've been on these boards for over three years. I led the first Kindleboards book club for 10 months. I've been very active in the tagging threads and the NQK forum. You'll find very little self-promotion in my posts relative to the number.
> 
> And I don't sell a gazillion books. I suppose if I did, you would condemn me for that too, and say that I'm unqualified to express an opinion.


When did I say anything about sales?

You have never even registered on my radar until you posted this. Don't flatter yourself, I have no problem with your opinion.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Attebery said:


> When did I say anything about sales?
> 
> You have never even registered on my radar until you posted this. Don't flatter yourself, I have no problem with your opinion.


Margaret has never been anything less than kind and helpful to me, personally. I'm not trying to draw any ire here, but I think this discussion might be getting a bit more heated than required.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Someone once sent this to me in a private message, after I called him out for using a sock puppet (and shortly before this person was banned from the KB):


Well, what I say I say in public not in PMs and you are welcome to try to call me out for using a sock puppet or try to get me banned. Your sense of humor may be a bit lacking but I actually admire your sales skills. Saying you sell a lot of novels is hardly an insult.

Edit: Seriously, David, that was intended as a light-hearted jab not an insult. Why you should think you need to get angry or threaten me over it, I have no idea. It was not intended as a real insult. It's hardly news that you sell a lot. Sorry if I hit a sore spot. It wasn't intentional.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

modwitch said:


> An attempt to clarify...
> 
> I hope people *do* share their Select experiences. I think there is a huge learning curve happening here, and we're all on it together. But, me, Modwitch, the Queen of Data Gathering - has given up. I simply cannot keep up with the flood of individual threads with this data. I love the virtual pub, because it's a lot easier to keep up with - a lot easier to see the newbie's first success or cheer someone's latest milestone.
> 
> I just want us to organize ourselves on Select so that there is a hope in heck of making sense of the tsunami of information . I figure that if *I'm* feeling overwhelmed, that's a bad sign...


I have to agree, modwitch. I wish I *could* make sense of all of the information. Things like if you're making a novel free how many days work best, weekend or weekday? Is there a bottom point for rank at which point it isn't productive? There is so much being thrown out there it's impossible to keep up with.

And I'm not good at analyzing that anyway. That's what a modwitch is for.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey y'all!

I got home from the quilting workshop that I taught today (I really AM a professional quilter) to find a seven page thread had popped up since this morning. It's even longer now.

I composed a careful response to several of the points raised in this thread, and paused to talk to my hubby for a few minutes and my stupid Safari browser on my iPad crashed and I lost the whole thing.



In no particular order...

We created the Writers' Café (which I pushed for) to create a place for authors to discuss their work with each other and readers without fear of someone raising a silver cross and screaming "self promotion." Members in other places on KB can mention their work without fear of being reported. I thought there needed to be a place where authors could do the same.

It was NOT created so that authors could discuss "all topics." We already have other places for that, like the Book Corner (books you've read), Let's Talk Kindle (discussions about the Kindle device), Not Quite Kindle (almost anything else). Go forth and post about "all topics." 

Politics and Religion. When KindleBoards first boomed in October 2008, we, too, thought that, in a forum for book lovers, anything and everything should be allowed. In a very short time, we learned that it didn't work. Too many people seemed unable to discuss these topics without getting angry and calling people names. This was not then and is not now the atmosphere we want here at KindleBoards. There have been discussions we've allowed in the past, and no doubt will in the future. As long as they stay civil and respectful, we tend to allow them. Unfortunately, they often go downhill very quickly. The last thread I locked, post no. three was against forum decorum.

Uneven moderation. KindleBoards averaged 1600 posts a day in December 2011. The Writers' Café, although a relatively new part of the forum, accounts for nearly a third of KindleBoards' 1,500,000 posts+--467,239 467,240 427,241. I have a life outside KB. Ann has a life outside KB. We rely on member reports to know where moderation is needed. I would say that about 80% of the moderation that I do throughout KindleBoards that doesn't involve simply moving a post is the result of a member report. For example, I thought this thread had kind of died, so I didn't bother to recreate my vanished post earlier, but it's been revived, and I received a report about it. If you think someone has posted inappropriately, report it. By the way, I've moderated Leslie, Boyd Morrison, Jeff, Mike Hicks, Gertie, Jack Konrath and many others. Some of them I even like. 

KDP Select Posts. I will be happy to merge new KDP Select posts with the new master thread. I'll note that in the past, when we would merge threads that were springing up like a game of whack-a-mole, we would get complaints. If we don't merge threads we get complaints. (I'm not complaining. ) It's just the nature of things. And having a lot of posts about a hot topic is also just the nature of things. John Locke. Amanda Hocking. Public Library books being enabled for Kindle. Kindle Owner's Prime Lending Library. Next month it will be something else... If you don't see a topic that interests you, start one that does. If you don't like the topics, don't post in them, they'll soon fade away, especially here in the WC. Threads move fast.

Snarkiness. The old folk are always complaining about the young 'uns. d*mn kids. Try to remember we're the nice Internet forum.

And please, don't get personal in this thread. It's gone on this far without crossing the line...

Best,

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I figure that if *I'm* feeling overwhelmed, that's a bad sign...


Without a doubt!!

But...I do think it's a good idea to keep some perspective here. This thread somehow turned into a "All the newbies are ruining it for the oldies with their incessant self-promotion" (ignoring the fact that most people who post here on a regular basis with their books in their signature are doing just that because this is the only place where we freely can...ahem, clears throat). KDP Select is still very new. The "We can all give away our books for free now" phenomenon here is also very new. Of course there is going to be a glut of responses/reactions to that. But it will pass, as have many other topics and developments here. I really, really, don't believe it's in the interests of anyone here, old or new, to denigrate other people simply because you perceive self-promotion in someone's thread. Again. and I'll say this until I'm blue in the face, if you don't want to hear it, don't read it. It will be gone by tomorrow Or more likely in an hour or two).

Just try to be nice and...heaven forbid...patient.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Well, what I say I say in public not in PMs and you are welcome to try to call me out for using a sock puppet or try to get me banned. Your sense of humor may be a bit lacking but I actually admire your sales skills. Saying you sell a lot of novels is hardly an insult.
> 
> Edit: Seriously, David, that was intended as a light-hearted jab not an insult. Why you should think you need to get angry or threaten me over it, I have no idea. It was not intended as a real insult. It's hardly news that you sell a lot. Sorry if I hit a sore spot. It wasn't intentional.


JR, my response wasn't aimed at you in particular, but really intended at many, many different people posting throughout this thread. I was certainly not accusing you of using sock puppets, or threatening (??) with a banning (nor anyone else...more referencing people from that 'golden age' where the Cafe and Amazon forums resembled the wild west). I also didn't view your bit as an insult. It just had a little vibe of "easy for you to say" which prompted my initial response.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm just so tickled that Select came by. No one cares that I'm trad published now. It's whether I'm pro or con Select


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm happy for the attempts to corral all the new posts into a few easy-to-find threads, but just wanted to note that I don't find it too hard to sift through which threads I want to read and which I don't have time for. Nor to figure out who is here for the long haul and who is not so much. But then I've been online a pretty long time.

So thanks to all of you who keep keeping on, without threats or whining, sharing your useful experiences and information. It really matters to many of us who are just finding our way.


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## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

jnfr said:


> but just wanted to note that I don't find it too hard to sift through which threads I want to read and which I don't have time for. Nor to figure out who is here for the long haul and who is not so much. But then I've been online a pretty long time.


^Exactly!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> JR, my response wasn't aimed at you in particular, but really intended at many, many different people posting throughout this thread. I was certainly not accusing you of using sock puppets, or threatening (??) with a banning (nor anyone else...more referencing people from that 'golden age' where the Cafe and Amazon forums resembled the wild west). I also didn't view your bit as an insult. It just had a little vibe of "easy for you to say" which prompted my initial response.


Sorry. Since you quoted me, I took it as aimed as me. I've tried to keep my cool through this thread and, God knows, I'm not always good at that. I really didn't mean anything particular by the comment and was just kidding.

Edit: Whoever it was who said things will calm down in a few weeks or we'll find something else to be arguing about was probably right.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Sorry. Since you quoted me, I took it as aimed as me. I've tried to keep my cool through this thread and, God knows, I'm not always good at that. I really didn't mean anything particular by the comment and was just kidding.


Bah. No need to apologize.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'm just so tickled that Select came by. No one cares that I'm trad published now. It's whether I'm pro or con Select


How dare you be trad pubbed. I'm starting a thread about that!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> How dare you be trad pubbed. I'm starting a thread about that!


kissy fingers


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## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Don't we all win doing that?


We do. And my response wasn't meant for you directly, Deborah, it's just that this thread became very ugly and condescending at one point, and I really don't care who you are, it's not cool to validate denigrating someone who's new to all of this simply because you've been here a while and seen it all before. We were all new once.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_" I don't see most of the analytics geeks weighing in on this anymore, and I'm guessing it's because it's impossible to wade through."_

Sometimes there is nothing to say. But data like this lends itself to a more huristic approach. There is a time to simply watch, absorb, and file things away. I'd say the data presented in these Select threads is among the most valuable I have seen here. It would take a long time for any individual to amass the experiences that have been shared. I'm grateful for that.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

So, some writers are self-absorbed navel gazers with poor social skills. Huh. This is such a surprise. I need a moment.

I just want to mention that it always cracks me up when people mention allowing discussions of politics and religion like it's no big. I am into politics, and talk about it a lot elsewhere. You know what else though? I've moderated politics threads or areas, and it's time-consuming pain, with every effort to calm people taken as a sign that you're in the tank for "the other side," whatever the other side might be in that case.

Yeah, I get this is a writing board and so, in theory, writers might want to discuss the big issues. However, the people who work hard here signed up to moderate a board about Kindles, reading, and writing, which entails moving threads, keeping things on track, participating, and occasionally calming frayed tempers -- not playing full-time referee. It's an easy suggestion to make, in that it makes work for other folks. 

As much as politics and religion might seem like great topics, I'd simply like writers to discuss _the craft of writing_ more than they discuss ... oh, everything else.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

MichelleR said:


> So, some writers are self-absorbed navel gazers with poor social skills. Huh. This is such a surprise. I need a moment.


 

This made my night.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I did see that the _behavior_, of both newbies and regulars, it should be pointed out, was criticized, sometimes in a mocking fashion, but nothing worse than you'd see in Parliament.


OMG, if we EVER behave as badly as Westminster, I'll definitely cry. Have you ever watched the PMQ? Ack! You have no idea how horrible that place is unless you watch it regularly. The standards of behavior make a drunk tank look charming. Oh, wait... some of them are drunks. Never mind. But I prefer heaping abuse on MPs elsewhere (often on Twitter  )


MichelleR said:


> So, some writers are self-absorbed navel gazers with poor social skills. Huh. This is such a surprise. I need a moment.


And we self-absorbed navel-gazers with poor social skills need love, too, ya know.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> And we self-absorbed navel-gazers with poor social skills need love, too, ya know.


Clearly.


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> We've had a SQUEE thread for about a year and a half now.
> 
> Let's hear your reason to celebrate. The Virtual Pub is open for all to share!
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,29394.msg540273.html#msg540273


That's a _voluntary_ thread. I was thinking more _mandatory_ emotion confining.

Yeah, I'd be that dictator if took over a country


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

These Select threads have been all over the place in a helter-skelter way recently. It would be more efficient and effective if there were one or two master threads that dealt with authors experiences with Select. otherwise one has to go hunting and pecking all over the place to find the information which is exhausting. And those who aren't interested in Select can pass.

If it were all in one or two master threads the Select experiences could be more easily accessed. Think of it as creating a "Folder" for your many files strewn all over the place. Some organization in regard to the Select topic would be a good thing.

Also, another master thread or "folder" for those going "free" on a non-select basis would help organize the clutter and place all that info in one place.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

People won't even read the threads pinned to the top of the cafe and the bazaar, why would they bother to use "official" threads for select, blogs, etc?


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

intinst said:


> People won't even read the threads pinned to the top of the cafe and the bazaar, why would they bother to use "official" threads for select, blogs, etc?


Hence, the reason I asked earlier in the thread is there anything we can really do about the chaos? Seems to me we have three options available: more self-policing, more moderation, or continue with business as usual. From what I gather from some of the posts on this thread, the last option seems to be more popular with the rank and file than the first two. If we don't get our act together, and the WC continues to resemble the Wild West of the old Book Bazaar, I suspect some structural changes to the board are coming, which may be exacerbated by the continued departure of more of our older members--a sad loss however you look at it. But if it means anything, the boards do look less cluttered than it did yesterday. Maybe this thread isn't as useless as some would have us believe.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Seems to me we have three options available: more self-policing, more moderation, or continue with business as usual."_

Is the basic problem that people lack interest in some topics and don't want to see titles to those threads in the index?


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _"Seems to me we have three options available: more self-policing, more moderation, or continue with business as usual."_
> 
> Is the basic problem that people lack interest in some topics and don't want to see titles to those threads in the index?


To be honest. I don't have any answers. I merely observe a growing problem that has occurred numerous times in the past, and upon reaching critical mass, each time resulted in the implementation of a new rule to limit what we can do as author-members of Kindle Boards or the creation of a new child-board. Technically, we've already been exiled from the general population to this sub-forum of a sub-forum and it's not too hard to guess that if we don't put the brakes on some of our excesses, there will be more limits put on us. Whether that will be a good thing or not, your guess is as good as mine.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _"Seems to me we have three options available: more self-policing, more moderation, or continue with business as usual."_
> 
> Is the basic problem that people lack interest in some topics and don't want to see titles to those threads in the index?


The original complaint was about too many self-promotional posts cropping up in the WC-but then stuff happened.

B.


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## fionashin (Dec 16, 2011)

Jeff said:


> The first thing we do, let's kill all the writers.


LOVE IT!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> To be honest. I don't have any answers. I merely observe a growing problem that has occurred numerous times in the past, and upon reaching critical mass, each time resulted in the implementation of a new rule to limit what we can do as author-members of Kindle Boards or the creation of a new child-board. Technically, we've already been exiled from the general population to this sub-forum of a sub-forum and it's not too hard to guess that if we don't put the brakes on some of our excesses, there will be more limits put on us. Whether that will be a good thing or not, your guess is as good as mine.


We've been exiled? Why didn't someone tell me, because I have posted in the general population hundreds of times. Does that mean I'm due hundreds of taserings? 

*hides*


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> We've been exiled? Why didn't someone tell me, because I have posted in the general population hundreds of times. Does that mean I'm due hundreds of taserings?
> 
> *hides*


Yup. Exiled. (No tasers for you. Only neon-colored sharpies if you get out of line!  )


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> But if it means anything, the boards do look less cluttered than it did yesterday. Maybe this thread isn't as useless as some would have us believe.


It's far from useless, Kevis. You got a lot of attention with this thread and, as a result, there's been a concerted effort by many (Thank you ModWitch) to organize posts a little better.

Intinst (the unofficial greeter of new members) sent me a PM yesterday volunteering to add something to his standard greeting. I told him that I was hoping for some consensus from the members, but since we didn't get that, maybe you could help Intinst come up with something.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Is the basic problem that people lack interest in some topics and don't want to see titles to those threads in the index?


That wasn't mentioned, but it worries me that the new Kindle owner and first time visitor, seeing that the majority of Recent Posts are from authors, passes us by. We need readers.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Jeff said:


> That wasn't mentioned, but it worries me that the new Kindle owner and first time visitor, seeing that the majority of Recent Posts are from authors, passes us by. We need readers.


That's something few discuss anymore. One of the casualties of being exiled was the loss of being able to talk directly with non-KB members about a variety of subjects (including our books) without having to migrate from one child board to the next. For some members (and justifiable in some cases), author-members showing up in general population with our books in our signature is the equivalent of being exposed to a leper. Our self-inflicted wounds resonate to this day.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> To be honest. I don't have any answers. I merely observe a growing problem that has occurred numerous times in the past, and upon reaching critical mass, each time resulted in the implementation of a new rule to limit what we can do as author-members of Kindle Boards or the creation of a new child-board. Technically, we've already been exiled from the general population to this sub-forum of a sub-forum and it's not too hard to guess that if we don't put the brakes on some of our excesses, there will be more limits put on us. Whether that will be a good thing or not, your guess is as good as mine.


Oh come on now. Nobody has been exiled. You guys exile yourself. You can post wherever you want around here, lots of you guys chose not too. I hang out all over, including here in the Cafe and there are many many authors that I have never seen outside of this area anywhere. Sometimes I wonder if they even know that the Cafe is only one segment of the board.

Come out and play. And I don't want to hear the "I am scared to get out of my hole" excuses. If I, as a non writer, with an appalling handle on grammar, can venture into a section full with word artists, than you (all you) can do it too. 

I think part of the problem here is cabin fever. Some of you only hang here, with other writers talking about numbers.

Mix some of us pheasants into your daily dealings here on KB. The rest of the board is just a mouse click away.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Jeff said:


> That wasn't mentioned, but it worries me that the new Kindle owner and first time visitor, seeing that the majority of Recent Posts are from authors, passes us by. We need readers.


Kindleboards could always exclude the Book Bazaar and Writer's Cafe threads from the Recent Posts feed...then again, think of all the great Select posts they'd be missing...










And I'm outa here!

B.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Atunah said:


> Mix some of us pheasants into your daily dealings here on KB.


_Pheasant_. Yum. Does that come with a side of broccoli or potatoes?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> _Pheasant_. Yum. Does that come with a side of broccoli or potatoes?


  Like I said, grammar and apparently spelling, not my thing. At least not in english.

I prefer duck myself if I have to eat a winged thing.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Atunah said:


> Like I said, grammar and apparently spelling, not my thing. At least not in english.
> 
> I prefer duck myself if I have to eat a winged thing.


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## kirklandatlarge (Apr 12, 2011)

OK. I don't get on here all that often (probably not often enough) so am I right to assume that this area is for us to interact as writers and the Book Bazaar is for promo? I hope I haven't messed that up.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

kirklandatlarge said:


> OK. I don't get on here all that often (probably not often enough) so am I right to assume that this area is for us to interact as writers and the Book Bazaar is for promo? I hope I haven't messed that up.


Spot on.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2012)

Just an FYI to those of you who think this is all "growing pains" and as the novelty of self-publishing wears off it will die down.

We were telling ourselves that over on the lulu.com forums...six years ago.  

So, don't hold your breath.

There will always be a bunch of newbies who think they are smarter than you and can trick you into not realizing what they are doing.  Ignoring them has no impact, because other newbies who want to believe this sort of spamming works will "support" them.  Snark is a perfectly legitimate weapon again spamming.  Consider it the virtual equivalent of a mom slapping a child's hand and saying "NO!" when they reach for the hot pan instead of trying to engage in a rational conversation with a temper-tantrum throwing four year old.

I have stopped opening threads that ask for "advice on book covers" or "advice of blurbs" or "advice on excerpts" because 90% of the time the poster does not want advice.  He/she wants praise not actual advice.  I got tired of spending ten minutes constructing thoughtful advice and recommendations only to be yelled at and told I was "unsupportive" or that it was just my opinion and the author’s sister’s best friend’s cousin who once interned for a company that sold toilet paper to a Big Six publisher thinks it is amazing.  And maybe 10% of those requests are genuine requests from people who want to learn.  But I can’t be bothered anymore to subject myself to the other 90%.  

Insofar as all of the “Made the top 100 in a category you never heard of!” or “Got 1000 sales of my book by making it free” threads, that I blame on a society that devalues real achievement in exchange for making sure everyone’s self esteem is preserved.  We’ve got an entire generation accustomed to getting blue ribbons for showing up.  They have no perspective on what actual success is.  Of course they are going to “Squee” when they get one sale in France.  But by the gods, there are 65,000,000 people in France.  ONE bought your book.  That is not an impressive feat.  That is a fluke. Ye gods, I’ve had sales come in from all over the world.  If I posted a thread every time someone in another country bought one of my books, the first three pages of the Writer’s Cafe would be nothing but my posts.

“SQUEE! Sale in Yugoslavia!”
“SQUEE! Sale in Japan!”
“SQUEE! Sale in Italy!”
“SQUEE! Sale on Jupiter”

OK, that last one would be something to talk about.  But you get the point.

But I can almost forgive the childlike overexcitement regarding non-achievements.  What bothers me are the fake posts just to generate post count and have an excuse to promote.  There was a thread recently with a subject line like “Can a 13 year be the main character of an adult thriller?” which sounded like it would be a legitimate conversation and was nothing more than a link to a five star review the author paid for through Clarion.  THAT kind of post deserves snark.  Because it wasn’t a legitimate post, but a promotional post.  Let’s be honest.  It is one thing if you are writing the book and ask the question because you genuinely want feedback while working on the book.  It is another to pretend you want feedback when you already published and you are really just promoting.

Just imagine if I posted a thread that said “Can a vampire that doesn’t sparkle sell books?” and the only content in the post was a self-congratulatory sentence and a link to a review I paid $300 for saying how great my book was.  Can you imagine David posting “Do you think readers would be interested in a book about half-orcs” and then just posting a link to a paid review?  What would your gut reaction be?  

And then there are the threads to “discuss” a “strange/funny/fill-in-the-blank review” which are really just meant to promote the book.  You know what, your five star review from Jane-Doe-I-Never-Heard-Of means nothing to me and I see through your epic fail attempt to get me to follow the Amazon link and buy your book.  

And then you have the piggybackers.  The guys who use subjects like “Konrath’s Latest Blog Post” or something about Amanda or John Locke.  The post includes no commentary but just a link to the post, and then proceeds to explain how amazing the poster’s book is while making some tenuous connection to the post in question.  

I don’t know.  Maybe I have low self-esteem and just don’t see some of these things as achievements.  I’ve got books with over 10,000 sales (real sales, not free downloads).  I’ve got my share of four and five star reviews.  I’ve been on bestsellers lists (not Amazon, but in the RPG field).  I’ve made sales all over the world.  It’s just never occurred to me that any of this was worth a “OMG LOOK AT ME I GOT SALEZ!” post every other day.  I would no more post about these things than I would rush into my boss’s office and sat “Hey! I got to work on time!” every morning.  

There is “celebrating the small victories” and then there is “making a big deal out of what you are supposed to do in the first place.”  

Too many people can’t tell the difference.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

I've found that going free on Jupiter made all the difference.

Is there a thread for that?


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## melissafmiller (Feb 17, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> My shorter version of Julie's post:
> 
> Ulterior motives bother me. Oh, you didn't come here to actually engage anyone else in discussion? You only want to draw attention to your book? Or your publishing venture? Or whatever?
> 
> ...


See this recent phenomenon stresses me out. I am far from an old hand on this board,and having seen a spate of posts that seem to be one thing disguised as another, have found myself second guessing my own posts because I am concerned they will be misconstrued. I can't tell you how many times recently I've been in a window constructing a post, thought the better of it, said oh, screw it, and backed out of the post.

I am sure you're all going to drive yourselves mad wondering what bon mots you've missed. 
But I find myself visiting less and less frequently and posting almost not at all.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

melissafmiller said:


> See this recent phenomenon stresses me out. I am far from an old hand on this board,and having seen a spate of posts that seem to be one thing disguised as another, have found myself second guessing my own posts because I am concerned they will be misconstrued. I can't tell you how many times recently I've been in a window constructing a post, thought the better of it, said oh, screw it, and backed out of the post.
> 
> I am sure you're all going to drive yourselves mad wondering what bon mots you've missed.
> But I find myself visiting less and less frequently and posting almost not at all.


Yes that has happened to me too. I want to ask for advice about something but before I hit the "Post" button I re-read my post and I start wondering if it will just come across as spammy.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2012)

Masha du Toit said:


> Yes that has happened to me too. I want to ask for advice about something but before I hit the "Post" button I re-read my post and I start wondering if it will just come across as spammy.


Well, are you genuinely asking for advice and WILLING TO ACT ON IT, or are you looking for confirmation and inclined to ignore/attack/disavow people who might tell you something you don't want to hear?

Intent matters. Intent ALWAYS matters. If you are asking a legitimate question and want honest answers, then never be afraid to ask. But if you are just looking for people to pat you on the back and assume all responses will be soft and fluffy bunny slippers, then you probably shouldn't.

But it does boil down to intent. And intent always shines through in the end.


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

Wow, has this thread turned into a can of worms.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well, are you genuinely asking for advice and WILLING TO ACT ON IT, or are you looking for confirmation and inclined to ignore/attack/disavow people who might tell you something you don't want to hear?
> 
> Intent matters. Intent ALWAYS matters. If you are asking a legitimate question and want honest answers, then never be afraid to ask. But if you are just looking for people to pat you on the back and assume all responses will be soft and fluffy bunny slippers, then you probably shouldn't.
> 
> But it does boil down to intent. And intent always shines through in the end.


Absolutely. I must admit that I have caught myself wanting to post something because I need reassurance rather than because I really want advice. Bad idea!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2012)

Masha du Toit said:


> Absolutely. I must admit that I have caught myself wanting to post something because I need reassurance rather than because I really want advice. Bad idea!


This is my thinking:

If you want advice, ask for advice.
If you need a hug, ask for a hug.
If you just released your book and you are scared to death, say you are scared to death and need support.

Ultimately, just be clear on what you are really looking for so that people can respond accordingly. Most of the problems on the forum (not just this one, but most) come from people saying one thing but wanting another.


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## jackblaine (May 22, 2011)

I'm with the folks who post less and less.  I do think that there will always be excited newbies posting squee (we were all a newbie, once) and I do think there will also always be spammers.  But I don't want to be yelled at in post replies on any board.  All caps and snark don't have a place in most, if any posts, anywhere, in my opinion.  When I see those I ignore them just as much as I ignore the spam.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

There is room for back-patting threads on this board. I like to hear about the successes and failures of my fellow writers to encourage, congratulate, or commiserate, as the case may be. Of course, that's not _all _I want to see on the board, but I don't see the harm. I'm even willing to tolerate a few of the more..._quirky _members of the board. You know, the ones who have fifty books with bad covers that each sell one book a month. I'd rather have a place that treats others with respect even if it means that we sometimes put up with bad behavior.

ETA: Some of what matters to me is whether or not the poster is an actual member of the community. I'm more annoyed by people who only show up to post brags or links to bragging/hectoring blog posts.


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## kirklandatlarge (Apr 12, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I've got books with over 10,000 sales (real sales, not free downloads).


This is an important point that I try to get across to people who come to my workshops at writer's conferences. Professionals get paid for their work. Amateurs work for free.  The amateurs have all but destroyed the feature column market in newspapers as editors strive to reduce costs for what they see as filler to go in between the advertising on the pages

I can see the value in giving away a sample, but not the entire book. I find there are much better ways to promote the books without giving them away for free. It was gut-wrenching enough to lower the prices to 99-cents. That said, my books are in the Kindle lending library, but at least the few hundred borrows I got last month will translate into some sort of payoff out of the $500,000 pool.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

genevieveaclark said:


> Bitter tears alert: Modwitch's data thread has already been sullied, 3x in a row, by people announcing their free books.
> 
> Took less than a day.


Wasn't that the point of the thread, though, in a sense, to help corral all the free announcements, posts, numbers, etc, into just one single thread?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

R. Doug said:


> Wow, has this thread turned into a can of worms.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> There is room for back-patting threads on this board. I like to hear about the successes and failures of my fellow writers to encourage, congratulate, or commiserate, as the case may be. Of course, that's not _all _I want to see on the board, but I don't see the harm. I'm even willing to tolerate a few of the more..._quirky _members of the board. You know, the ones who have fifty books with bad covers that each sell one book a month. I'd rather have a place that treats others with respect even if it means that we sometimes put up with bad behavior.
> 
> ETA: Some of what matters to me is whether or not the poster is an actual member of the community. I'm more annoyed by people who only show up to post brags or links to bragging/hectoring blog posts.


This. Yes. I agree. I've made jokes, but I'm happy to have people looking for advice, pats on back, and even publicity--all at the same time, if necessary--because then I'll have the chance to do so on occasion.

Truth is, KB was so appealing in 2010 when I got hooked on it because people were talking about their actual efforts and successes with self-publishing, not just anonymously discussing the finer points of prose and craft.


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## WilliamKing.me (Jul 15, 2011)

R. Doug said:


> Wow, has this thread turned into a can of worms.


My thoughts exactly, Doug,

All the best,

Bill


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

genevieveaclark said:


> It was a thread for Select data and experiences. There is a separate thread for "my book is now free." It's in the title.


Ah.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

There probably are too many threads on similar topics but the main thing that bothers me is self-promotion in the Cafe.  

This really isn't the place for it and it certainly damages my opinion of people who do it when they don't even have the excuse of not knowing any better.  I un-follow people who spam self-promotion on Twitter or Google+.  Equally, I wouldn't read the work of someone I recognised as spamming self-promotion on the forums, even if it were free.  It's bad manners to come into a community where people are trying to help each other and to ignore that and just concentrate on selling yourself.  

Advertising in the Bazaar is like putting up an advert to sell your house so that people can come and view it if they wish.  Advertising in the Cafe is like dragging people in off the street as they're walking past your house, or shouting at them out of the windows - it just makes people back away quickly and risks getting you reported to the authorities.


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## Jaci Byrne (Dec 28, 2011)

I agree,

Although I'm new to this forum, I too noticed that it was being used for self-promo more than imparting info since I joined but that could be due to - yes, all us newbies, so I posted a 'Time for a bit of humour' with some amusing quotes to lighten us all up a little. 

But I have to say that the support I have received from all the 'grown up' authors has been fantastic.
I'm looking forward to the day I become a 'grown up' author myself!

Another funny quote for today:

'Writing is easy: All you do is sit staring at a blank sheet of paper until drops of blood form on your forehead.' ~Gene Fowler

Happy writing!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Oh come on now. Nobody has been exiled. You guys exile yourself. You can post wherever you want around here, lots of you guys chose not too. I hang out all over, including here in the Cafe and there are many many authors that I have never seen outside of this area anywhere. Sometimes I wonder if they even know that the Cafe is only one segment of the board.
> 
> Come out and play. And I don't want to hear the "I am scared to get out of my hole" excuses. If I, as a non writer, with an appalling handle on grammar, can venture into a section full with word artists, than you (all you) can do it too.
> 
> ...


I love the book area. I ask for book suggestions to add to lists, and to achieve my (never achievable) reading challenge. I offer some books I know. I have even gotten to argue about Jane Austen novels


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## sherylb (Oct 27, 2008)

Zelah Meyer said:


> There probably are too many threads on similar topics but the main thing that bothers me is self-promotion in the Cafe.
> 
> This really isn't the place for it and it certainly damages my opinion of people who do it when they don't even have the excuse of not knowing any better. I un-follow people who spam self-promotion on Twitter or Google+. Equally, I wouldn't read the work of someone I recognised as spamming self-promotion on the forums, even if it were free. It's bad manners to come into a community where people are trying to help each other and to ignore that and just concentrate on selling yourself.
> 
> Advertising in the Bazaar is like putting up an advert to sell your house so that people can come and view it if they wish. Advertising in the Cafe is like dragging people in off the street as they're walking past your house, or shouting at them out of the windows - it just makes people back away quickly and risks getting you reported to the authorities.


One of the problems I have noticed is the definition of self-promotion.
It seems there is no hard and fast example of this and I think that is what confuses people. I have read this thread from when it started and have noted who is participating in the discussion and you know what I found? Some of the very authors that agreed there is too much self-promotion went right out and started a new squee thread about something amazing they thought everyone needed to know about their book. To me this is self-promotion. To someone else it might not be.

The other problem I have noticed is there are authors who just don't care what the rules are in the forum and can't be bothered to even read the stickys before posting. There is no way to deal with that.

The final point I would like to make is you are ALL guests here. The WC is not a right, it is a privilege. Use it wisely.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

sherylb said:


> The final point I would like to make is you are ALL guests here. The WC is not a right, it is a privilege. Use it wisely.


Yikes. Point well taken.


----------



## Owen (Aug 24, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> My shorter version of Julie's post:
> 
> Ulterior motives bother me. Oh, you didn't come here to actually engage anyone else in discussion? You only want to draw attention to your book? Or your publishing venture? Or whatever?


Yes, and I don't believe for a second that someone who writes an interesting thread title only to jam a link to their blog inside doesn't know what they're doing.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2012)

sherylb said:


> The final point I would like to make is you are ALL guests here. The WC is not a right, it is a privilege. Use it wisely.


Wow. When I first joined KB this seemed like such a warm, supportive atmosphere. Not so much any more. Rules upon rules. Censoring private messages. More rules. Whac-A-Mole discussion of how to control and shape the conversation. Things are getting nutty.


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

Well...
Then there is this: Every post we make, and every time we discuss our books in any form or fashion helps to promote our books in some way. How do you draw a line between good intentions and blatant promotion? So what should be discussed here?

Writing craft, maybe?
How to market, maybe?
Publishing options, maybe?
How to format, maybe?
Indie author milestones, maybe?
The publishing industry, maybe?
Good and bad experiences as an indie author, maybe?
KDP/KDP-Select, maybe?
Other publishing opportunities, maybe?
How to get reviews, and the ups and downs of reviews, maybe?

Are all of these legitimate discussions on a writer's forum on Kindleboards? Each new thread advertises the poster's books. Each post advertises their books. Our books are in our signature. 

So my question remains: where is the line drawn?

I've been on here just long enough to realize that the real problem is the repetitive threads hounding on the same few topics over and over again. One thread for each hot topic will suffice, and I say once again, it would be a good idea to make the hot topic threads stickies, so that they don't get lost.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Attebery said:


> Wow. When I first joined KB this seemed like such a warm, supportive atmosphere. Not so much any more. Rules upon rules. Censoring private messages. More rules. Whac-A-Mole discussion of how to control and shape the conversation. Things are getting nutty.


Not really true, the rules have been there for a very long time. Few ever read them, however.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Pet peeve: thread titles that don't tell you what the thread is about.

Like this one: "What the heck?"

What the heck _what_? What the heck is this thread about? I can only find out whether this is an interesting discussion (for me) if I actually start reading it. This one _is_, by the way. But it could have been: What the heck? I sold _three_ books in France in one go (I did.  I _really_ did) and now some person in France, being all French and that, is reading my books. Squeeeeeeeee...... Let me give you all the links to all my books.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I may privately (and sometimes publicly) be a judgmental SOB


*
STOP THE PRESS

*
There is a way to be a judgmental SOB in private This would have saved me so much grief if I'd known this before.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

sherylb said:


> The final point I would like to make is you are ALL guests here. The WC is not a right, it is a privilege. Use it wisely.












But it's cold outside...and there are bears.

B.


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

Okay, Justin . . . that was just tooooooo cute.

Go to your room.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> But it's cold outside...and there are bears.
> 
> B.


Can I adopt you?


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I don't mind new threads about anything, really, as long as the SUBJECT LINE IS A GOOD INDICATOR OF THE TOPIC.

Yeah, I'm shouting.

I browse by the subject line, and if it's a "yay, I just sold 2 books", I can choose to read the thread or not.  But those darn threads that use subjects like "I can't believe it!" or "What the heck?" (yeah I'm pointing at this thread, which is an example of an excellent thread using an unhelpful subject line) pull me in every time.

Maybe we can nudge each other to write more accurate subject lines?  Then we can all be happy!  Happpyyyy!

More ponies.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I'd be happy with people reading at least the title before posting


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I agree that it's difficult to make a call on what is and what isn't self-promotion for any kind of hard and fast rules, because someone could post a thread with a link to their blog or book in it and have it NOT be about trying to drum up sales.

However, there have been some blatant self-promotion posts recently (I don't want to pull out examples as I don't want to name and shame or make anyone feel that they're being ganged up on).  

I think the key fact is that the people who are mainly responsible KNOW they're doing it.  It's not the innocent 'squee' we see from people pleased at a sales milestone or great review - it's obvious (and in some cases regular) self-promotion that is plain to the majority of the posters reading it and will occasionally garner snarky remarks as a result.  They are posting purely to advertise and it shows through what they write in the post, in the language the tone and the general approach.  You can see they aren't looking to take part in the discussions or to share how they think or feel about something, it might as well be an advert popping up for all it adds to the community.  

If you're someone who meant it innocently and think someone is having a go at you because of this thread, then you're probably not one of the people who is actually winding other posters up.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> It's probably pointless to argue the point any further since everyone's already taken a side. But when I started this thread, I wasn't even referring to the Select threads, but rather the authors who are blatantly posting threads that belong in The Book Bazaar in this forum, because, as another author noted above, they are trying to get around the forum rules on self-promotion. Once you add 100 different threads every hour on the hour about KDP Select and _"Look Ma! My free book has been downloaded a gazillion times!!!"_, it gets to be a chore to find even one thread not about the aforementioned subjects.
> 
> This wouldn't be an issue, if we made a more concerted effort to avoid duplicate threads. But the willful and reckless creation of endless threads on the same subject IS ruining the quality of the discussions in this forum. But as I mentioned before, if this is the kind of forum we want to have, then go for it. Just don't be surprised when some draconian rule gets imposed that stifles our liberal use of these forums. _Again._


You have hit the nail on the head, Kevis. I've always said 'If the shoe fits, wear it.' If I see a thread on WC that interests me, I'll read it. If not, I skip it. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much I can post on for the last several months because I don't understand math well enough to know what the heck everyone is talking about. I have a book for rent right now, but no one is renting it (by rent I mean borrow) though I am still selling it. That is all I know about KDP Select. That is all I need to know. It's doing nothing for me. But I understand what Kevis is saying. I even pointed a thread out to one of our loverly mods and asked if it might not be better placed in the Book Bazaar, but I got no response from the mod, not even a raspberry and the thread remained in the WC. So I figured, oh, well, that's the way of it. 
I remember when the authors used to talk about junk, just junk so that our potential/actual fans/readers could see us as human beings and not some strange, far-off creatures made of brains, glasses and fingers permanently attached to keyboards.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

I'd like to add something here.  Although many like to choose up sides (mostly old poster vs. new poster) and then imagine that they are on one or the other, I don't think this arrangement works for most of these issues.  When it comes to self-promotion, I noticed it from day 1 after the Writers Cafe was created.  To me, it isn't an old member vs. new member -- plenty of people with high post counts have been doing it all along, in my opinion.  So have some newer posters.

If the consensus of the board is that this is okay, and Harvey approves, then so be it.  If that's the case, I'd rather leave it alone.  That way, people can simply choose on their own whether to hang out here or not.  Otherwise, as we've seen in this thread, there will be a lot of people reaching for pitchforks instead of talking about writing.  I think it would be better to bag the self-promotion and corral some of the common posts into one thread, but not at the expense of pissing anybody off, hurting feelings and driving folks away.  

Personally, I'm less concerned about self-promo and more concerned with people dispensing advice without qualifying it with some kind of "your mileage may vary" disclaimer.  I've seen a few wacky pieces of advice based on nothing but a few weeks of experience.  In one thread a new poster asked what December sales are normally like, and one writer answered in a factual way, based on nothing but his own completely unfounded opinion and prediction.  Stuff like that is really bad for writers who are just getting on board.  And this problem, I have to say, is a new development.  At the risk of offending newer members, I have to say that there used to be more care about this.

There are plenty of great writers with solid advice, both "old" and "new."  For example, Lisa Grace is pretty new and she's shown me that she already knows way more than I do about marketing and how Amazon works.  She's also careful to qualify what she says so as not to portray it as ironclad fact -- because it won't apply to everybody.  I wish everybody would be so careful, and that was really my only meaningful contribution to this thread...


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## meggjensen (Feb 17, 2011)

We can discuss for days how we want people to behave on KB. People are going to do what they want to do, no matter how many of us would like to do away with blatant self-promotion.

What the rest of us have to do is continue to post about quality topics. 

You can't kick 'em out, nor can you change them. Sucks, but true.

-megg (who doesn't post as much as some of you, but is here multiple times a day searching for golden nuggets and offering up info when I feel I have something of value to contribute)


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

meggjensen said:


> We can discuss for days how we want people to behave on KB. People are going to do what they want to do, no matter how many of us would like to do away with blatant self-promotion.
> 
> What the rest of us have to do is continue to post about quality topics.
> 
> ...


Very true. +1 ! Probably a good attitude to have to life in general. Change what you can, try to live with what you cannot, and do yourself, what you expect others to do.


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## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

Oh dear.

Threads like this make me paranoid that I've done something wrong.  

Hope I haven't been the cause of any of this frustration. If so, I definitely didn't mean it. 

I am dreadful at understanding proper social conduct. I keep trying to learn, but I feel awful about it when I make mistakes. I go along thinking that I'm fitting in and being a normal human being and then someone complains about something I've said or done and I feel so embarrassed and crawl back in my cave.


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## Danielle Kazemi (Apr 2, 2011)

To ease the fears of most of you, if you are worried this thread applies to you, it probably does not. You would be too busy creating new ways to promote to us or another thread for yourself to care.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2012)

RuthMadison said:


> Threads like this make me paranoid that I've done something wrong.


I'm not sure why this is complicated.

Do you post to add genuine insight into a conversation, or as an excuse to get your signature line in front of people?
Do you start threads with legitimate concerns or questions, or to deliberately trick people into reading your promotional material?
Do you declare your intentions from the beginning, or do you use wiggly words and hide behind squishy language to say one thing or mean another?

There is nothing wrong with self-promotion if it is done openly, transparently, and in the right place. There is everything wrong with it if it is done in a way that is trying to be sneaky or deceitful or insults the intelligence of those who open the thread. People are making this more complicated than it is. Be honest. Be clear. Say what you mean and own what you say. Don't treat other members like idiots by trying to "outsmart" them with tricks, gimmicks, and other nonsense.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

ETS PRESS said:


> I've been on here just long enough to realize that the real problem is the repetitive threads hounding on the same few topics over and over again. One thread for each hot topic will suffice, and I say once again, it would be a good idea to make the hot topic threads stickies, so that they don't get lost.


A couple comments to this.

1) If a topic is hot, it doesn't get lost. It's constantly being posted to and so is at the top.

2) Some people think we have too many stickies. We pruned them a while back to make fewer at the request of members.

3) People don't read the stickies and just start a new thread any way.
^Seriously.

When John Locke's book on how to sell came out, threads were started everywhere. I tried stickying ONE to have everyone post to it. It made no change whatsoever. Our experience has been that, while new people MAY read the stickies (and that's debatable), for many people, they stop seeing them.

I will take some responsibiity for the chaos here. We've tried to bend over backwards to allow y'all the freedom here you don't have in other parts of the forum. And it is a fine line sometimes on what constitutes self promotion and what constitues celebration or a request for help. Feel free to report threads that you think are inappropriate, and I'll be glad to take a somewhat harder line. Even if it means I'm told I'm going to ruin someone's life (which I have been told in the past).

Betsy


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

That's me the next time I get moderated.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Attebery said:


> Wow. When I first joined KB this seemed like such a warm, supportive atmosphere. Not so much any more. Rules upon rules. Censoring private messages. More rules. Whac-A-Mole discussion of how to control and shape the conversation. Things are getting nutty.


Mike--

I'm not aware of any new rules that have been implemented since you joined in February 2011? And could you clarify what you mean by "censoring private messages?"

Like posting here, use of the KB private message system is a privilege. The PM system may not be used to make unsolicited pitches to members any more than spamming is allowed in public posts. The PM system may also not be used to threaten or harass members. Restriction of PMs from being used as a sale tool is in Forum Decorum and in the Terms of Service that you agreed to when you became a member. If you find these restrictions censorship, I can only say that they are not going to change, they are here to protect our membership.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Danielle Kazemi said:


> To ease the fears of most of you, *if you are worried this thread applies to you, it probably does not*. You would be too busy creating new ways to promote to us or another thread for yourself to care.


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## Owen (Aug 24, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> A couple comments to this.
> 
> 1) If a topic is hot, it doesn't get lost. It's constantly being posted to and so is at the top.
> 
> ...


You must do it all, and none. You must be everywhere, and no where. You must be respect, and feared.

That is the way of the mod.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OwenAdams said:


> You must do it all, and none. You must be everywhere, and no where. You must be respect, and feared.
> 
> That is the way of the mod.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> That's me the next time I get moderated.


I'll hold you to that.


Betsy


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Jeff said:


> That wasn't mentioned, but it worries me that the new Kindle owner and first time visitor, seeing that the majority of Recent Posts are from authors, passes us by. We need readers.


We do indeed, Jeff. But we're not going to get them here in the Writers' Café.

I've started a new thread on this topic, explaining my reasons. Thanks for bringing it up.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Mike Dennis said:


> We do indeed, Jeff. But we're not going to get them here in the Writers' Café.
> 
> I've started a new thread on this topic, explaining my reasons. Thanks for bringing it up.


Really?


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## SentientSurfer (Sep 20, 2011)

Sigh. Threads like these are merely a different form of spam.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Mike Dennis said:


> We do indeed, Jeff. But we're not going to get them here in the Writers' Café.
> 
> I've started a new thread on this topic, explaining my reasons. Thanks for bringing it up.


You misunderstood my post. I meant that we need more members who are readers and not writers.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Mike--
> 
> I'm not aware of any new rules that have been implemented since you joined in February 2011? And could you clarify what you mean by "censoring private messages?"
> 
> ...


Unsolicited pitches? No, I'm talking about using a word involving an A followed by an S and an S in a private message to another member, then our shock when the two of us looked at the version they had received and saw the system had replaced that word with [expletive]. That disturbs me, like we're writers being governed by a 1950s elementary school library level of acceptable language.

The site is appreciated, but I mean, the members are also providing the owners with fodder for Amazon Associates payments on every title linked back to that site with "kbpst-20" attached to it. If you keep narrowing the scope of where and how and how often we can post, you'll start whittling away at that income.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Attebery said:


> Unsolicited pitches? No, I'm talking about using a word involving an A followed by an S and an S in a private message to another member, then our shock when the two of us looked at the version they had received and saw the system had replaced that word with [expletive]. That disturbs me, like we're writers being governed by a 1950s elementary school library level of acceptable language.
> 
> The site is appreciated, but I mean, the members are also providing the owners with fodder for Amazon Associates payments on every title linked back to that site with "kbpst-20" attached to it. If you keep narrowing the scope of where and how and how often we can post, you'll start whittling away at that income.


Have you ever read the Forum decorum?

Specific Rules

- No bad words please. (Don't test our filters.)


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2012)

intinst said:


> - No bad words please. (Don't test our filters.)


Just to play Devil's Advocate, there is a certain irony to the fact that we cannot type the word A** in a forum post, but we can have signatures featuring book covers with naked backsides and lesbians kissing.

Just saying...


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Just to play Devil's Advocate, there is a certain irony to the fact that we cannot type the word A** in a forum post, but we can have signatures featuring book covers with naked backsides and lesbians kissing.
> 
> Just saying...


We can show it, just not say it.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Totally agree with this, and the titles do show in some of the book pictures. If they irritate me too much, that's what AD Blocker is for.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Attebery said:


> Unsolicited pitches? No, I'm talking about using a word involving an A followed by an S and an S in a private message to another member, then our shock when the two of us looked at the version they had received and saw the system had replaced that word with [expletive]. That disturbs me, like we're writers being governed by a 1950s elementary school library level of acceptable language.
> 
> The site is appreciated, but I mean, the members are also providing the owners with fodder for Amazon Associates payments on every title linked back to that site with "kbpst-20" attached to it. If you keep narrowing the scope of where and how and how often we can post, you'll start whittling away at that income.


That's what you're complaining about?  Sorry, I just can't get worked up on this one. *shrug* the forum software works automatically throughout the forum. Authors should have a larger vocabulary. Or use your thesaurus. 

As for narrowing the scope of where and how and how often you can post, let me point out again that there have been no changes to forum rules since you joined, and that the admin staff here did not start this thread or suggest restrictions, your peers did. And if the revenue stream from the forum dries up, d*mn, I'll have to cancel that Ferrari I ordered....  oh, wait, I don't get paid... d*mn...guess I'll have to cancel it anyway.

Seriously, you are provided this forum where you can advertise your books day and night via your signatures to a very large pool of exactly your customers, customize your book threads to your heart's content, network with your fellow authors, meet all end of interesting people and discuss almost any topic, all for free, and you're upset because you can't use the word a**? Seriously? *takes a deep breath *

Someone else commented about the image vs word thing? Images in sigs & avatars can be turned off by members. And adblock allows one to block individual images. So there are more options for people with images. And kissing is not seen as something negative by the staff here, but if anyone sees a cover image that they think violates our family friendly atmosphere, please report it. It's a judgement call, admittedly.

Y'all really need something to do... Isn't there a cover to critique or something you should be writing? Isn't Celebrity Wife Swap on TV? Shoo!

Betsy


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Y'all really need something to do... Isn't there a cover to critique or something you should be writing? Isn't celebrity Wife Swap on TV? Shoo!
> Betsy


  Betsy, you are quickly becoming my favorite KB character.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks! *blushes*

Oh, and buy my quilts!
  

Betsy


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

Wow. Eleven pages. 273 responses (274 with this one). This is one popular thread.

So let me take advantage of this popularity to tell you about my latest mmmfff mfmfmmfffffmmm mmmfffffmm [GASP] mmmfffmmmffff fffmmffffmmm [GASP]

_(The above attempt at self-promotion was mercifully killed by a concerned bystander. No thanks is necessary)_


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## Jack Blaine (May 9, 2011)

Betsy FTW!  I love you!


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## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> We can show it, just not say it.


Mmm. Soft serve ice cream! Yumm!

. . .wait a minute!



Caedem


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Jeff said:


> You misunderstood my post. I meant that we need more members who are readers and not writers.


That's what I meant, too, Jeff. Check out my thread.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Mike Dennis said:


> That's what I meant, too, Jeff. Check out my thread.


Your thread is something about getting readers to participate in the Writers' Cafe.

I want more of the people who got Kindles for Christmas to join *Kindleboards*. I don't care one way or the other if they participate in the Writers' Cafe.


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)




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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Just thought I'd mention that Celebrity Wife Swap starts in 8 minutes.


Betsy


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

And Republic of Doyle starts in less than 24 hours. If you've never heard of it because you're not Canadian, you must go purchase it NOW NOW NOW because it's that good. And awesome. And good. And awesome. And sexy.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

NCIS/NCIS LA, baby. 

ETA: Why is Republic of Doyle not on Netflix? I love CBC shows!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

jnfr said:


> NCIS/NCIS LA, baby.
> 
> ETA: Why is Republic of Doyle not on Netflix? I love CBC shows!


Netflix pretty much hates Canada. I should know; I saw what they offered us.

I think I bought Seasons 1 and 2 for under $15 on ITunes, but that's ITunes Canuckistan so who knows if it's even on ITunes: Full Strength.


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## Randirogue (Apr 25, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Insofar as all of the "Made the top 100 in a category you never heard of!" or "Got 1000 sales of my book by making it free" threads, that I blame on a society that devalues real achievement in exchange for making sure everyone's self esteem is preserved. We've got an entire generation accustomed to getting blue ribbons for showing up. They have no perspective on what actual success is. Of course they are going to "Squee" when they get one sale in France. But by the gods, there are 65,000,000 people in France. ONE bought your book. That is not an impressive feat. That is a fluke. Ye gods, I've had sales come in from all over the world. If I posted a thread every time someone in another country bought one of my books, the first three pages of the Writer's Cafe would be nothing but my posts.
> 
> "SQUEE! Sale in Yugoslavia!"
> "SQUEE! Sale in Japan!"
> ...





Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I don't know. Maybe I have low self-esteem and just don't see some of these things as achievements. I've got books with over 10,000 sales (real sales, not free downloads). I've got my share of four and five star reviews. I've been on bestsellers lists (not Amazon, but in the RPG field). I've made sales all over the world. It's just never occurred to me that any of this was worth a "OMG LOOK AT ME I GOT SALEZ!" post every other day. I would no more post about these things than I would rush into my boss's office and sat "Hey! I got to work on time!" every morning.
> 
> There is "celebrating the small victories" and then there is "making a big deal out of what you are supposed to do in the first place."
> 
> Too many people can't tell the difference.


First, Juile, let me preface by station that I have no real qualms with your post nor the general concepts and perspective it expressed. I have felt much like you do (or how I perceive you do, at least) more often than not. I am merely referencing parts of your post here because it was the one I was reading when I decided to comment on this topic.

I had thought I'd be cool and aloof at my first publication and sales to unknown people. Oh, I figured I'd be pleased, significantly so, perhaps even embarrassingly so, buy I hoped I'd mostly keep it to myself out of 1) fear of annoying those very authors I've come to look up to, 2) fear of annoying readers, regardless of whether or not they'd ever bless my work by showing an interest in it, 3) random, though fairly often, bouts of shyness, 4) undeserving inflation of the merit of the achievement in comparison to the much more grandiose accomplishments of so many others here and elsewheres, 5) ...Well, there are a ton of other reasons, but the first four were probably the biggest.

Now, that's not to say that I haven't participated in squeefests here. I have posted in the Virtual Pub (though mostly to acknowledge the achievement others), I got all giddy in the Pink Snowbunnies In Hell thread, and I even started a thread asking others to post reviews/comments/emails they had received that affected them immensely because the reviewer explained in some detail how the story had touched them deeply (and started it off with one such post I'd received on a story that would very, very, very likely never be for sale), so I am quite capable of such indulgences even while I purport belief that acknowledgement of a small achievement should be rendered in appropriate scale.

That said... I did not make a thread for my book when I released it at all. I may not have even posted in the Virtual Pub specifically to celebrate the release (though, I could be wrong on that). In fact, I hardly told anyone at all (which I've been more comfortable saying on the Kindleboards than any sort of purposeful self-promotion here - which some may view as self-promotion, and may possibly have been a ridiculous self-conscious way of drawing attention to the release). I did add it to my signature within a couple days of release.

But... The joy I felt when I published it... Gah! It is frustrating to be a writer and not to be able to adequately express my own feelings about myself, my accomplishments (evn if they pale immensely in comparison to others). Maybe those who take the time to read this perhaps overlong and verbose post will take that as a sign of my inability to write (and may be correct about it, since I don't always trust assessment of my own abilities mad by myself or others very well at times, not always, but at times).

That sensation repeated when I made a few, paltry sales (most of which by people unknown to me, since I didn't outright publicize it or promote it very much).

I am embarrassed to say that, despite all my hang ups about such inflated acievements, I WANTED acknowledgement for these things. I wanted acknowledgment from my peers (or those I hoped to one day be able to call my peers). I didn't want inflated praise over it, but some acknowledgement of some sort, especially the kind that didn't require my own request for it or fishing for it, would have been extremely nice.

Alas, nobody noticed. Nobody said anything. And honestly, who am I to warrant such a thing?

And the thing is that until I decided to post this here (where a part of me really hopes it will be lost amongst the other posts despite its rather embarrassing length), I hadn't even admitted it to myself.

I joined Kindleboards for information and a sort of mundane, quiet psuedo-mass-mentorship. I love it here, I love seeing the camaraderie, the growing connections being made between writers and between writers and readers, the valuable information and assistance and support that is offered so readily and steadily. I can't help but to want to be a part of that camaraderie, to make connections with people here (both writers and readers, my betters, my peers, and my lessers (not that I think of anyone specifically as the latter two; just that statistically there *may* be some)).

And yet, I feel fairly ridiculous for even stating that... Because I don't feel terribly included, acknowledged, etc. I feel like an outsider looking in at all the cool kids enjoying their party and picking their first draft picks of the cool newbies that show up.

Please understand that I know how ridiculous that sounds, how immature, how needy, self-conscious, etc. also, understand that I admit that these sensations are probably all in my own head and have very little bearing on the reality of this place.

I also know that I will probably continue to hope to achieve some greater sense of inclusion and camaraderie around here until either I achieve it, no longer feel a sense of needing it or wanting it, or give up on it.

But, most of all, I WANT other inspiring writers to experience that powerfully empowering and inspiring rush I felt upon discovery of this place. Whether it lives up to it over time will vary from person to person and may even be a self-delusion or not, I still want that initial impression to continue for others. It got me off my booty and pushed me over the edge for actually dusting off all those stories and ideas I'd allowed to get buried for whatever rationalized drivel I'd assigned as my reasoning for them to be allowed to get buried... To dust off that degree... And actually do something with it all, not just pine over it.

And yet, I laughed right along with the very amusing comments in this thread. I agreed with them as I read them. And, for the most part I still do.

I'm not complaining about the complaints of self-promotion. I'm not exactly defending them either. And, I'm not asking experienced posters, writers, or readers to spoon feed me or any other newbie to the self-publishing arena.

I guess, I don't even have all that specific a point beyond that of just being suddenly overwhelmed with an urge to share these thoughts and impressions of mine (which, I know, doesn't build any sort of confidence in my ability to tell a worthwhile, compelling, and cohesive story). But, then, that's part of the point too. While I know that I could turn off readers or annoy other writers by my less than stellar comments, questions, etc., having the venue to openly participate in book / story / writing / marketing / strategy / hopes / fears / amusements / embarrassments / etc. -related discussions is one of the major draws and bonuses of the Kindleboards.

While I may not be as blatant as others about it, or as crass, or annoying, or unprofessional, or whatever (though, perhaps I am and just not recognizing it), I do hope to make full use of these benefits (flubs, occasional over-indulgence, annoyances, and all). And if I am ever lucky enough to achieve that much (let alone actual professional success and peer respect and recognition), then I hope I am able to keep my perspective of these early days, of those sensations of my first release, my first unknown sales, and my great yearnings to ridiculously announce those paltry achievements as well as the yearnings for having those I interact with or around here voluntarily say "I see you put a book in your sig - congratulations on taking that leap".

And I think my being up late and very tired and a little maudlin (up at 4am for work again tomorrow) may be muddying what little point I apparently had to begin with.

Anyway... I hope this post didn't come off as too bothersome or whiney, nor that it seemed accusatory or admonishing or even too defensive.

Yeah... I think I should just stop typing now.

Goodnight everyone. Best experiences.

~_~ooo

(Note: I may very likely edit this for typos, embassment, shyness, etc. tomorrow... ~_~ooo)


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Thanks for sharing, Randi.


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## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

Please don't edit tomorrow, @randirogue.  It's perfect just the way it is.


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## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

++!


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Randi, (which autocorrect wants to change to brandish.)

I've long observed that few people think they sit at the cool table, often not even the people who really, truly do. I wouldn't worry about it. 

You can be anyone you like on the Internet. I'm not talking about lying your face off, although we know this happens, but about putting whichever traits you like about yourself at the forefront, and self-editing when it comes to your worst impulses. (Also, telling yourself that you're Molly Singer, and there isn't anyone in the world better than you, but only if you've seen Corrina, Corrina.)

I made a quip earlier about many writers being self-involved navel-gazers ... I wasn't really kidding. Your need for validation, attention, and a pat on the back means you've come to a place where you need never feel alone. This thread is about healthy ways  to get all of that.  What happens when writers take needs and desires most of us understand all too well and uses them to ride roughshod over this board is that the people with some impulse controller's and professionalism get trampled ... or at least overlooked on occasion. 

As much as I occasionally say critical thingss about the books I read, it takes courage to publish, so don't forget that you did something brave.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Randirogue said:


> And yet, I feel fairly ridiculous for even stating that... Because I don't feel terribly included, acknowledged, etc. I feel like an outsider looking in at all the cool kids enjoying their party and picking their first draft picks of the cool newbies that show up.


Randi,

Thank you for sharing what I know a lot of KB posters probably are feeling right along with you but don't want to take the chance of being publicly flogged by putting it out there. I applaud you for your honesty. And if it makes you feel better, just like in real life, many of the so-called-cool-kids are actually faking it, and if you look closely are really not so cool after all. Have you ever heard the term, "Fake it 'til You Make it" ? Now I'm not saying that all of the old timers haven't earned their place on the pedestal, because many of them have and in my opinion are a great asset to this board. But the writers that I want to interact with are the new, excited ones and the seasoned ones who graciously impart their hard-earned wisdom and tools of success to others, whether they be writers with sales of 20,000 a month or have just published and sold their first 5 books. It's about camaraderie, not hierarchy. And those who want to push past everyone else to be the first sitting at the cool kids table, usually don't have anything to say that I'd want to hear anyway. I'm a newbie to this board, but by no means a newbie to Indie publishing--- _what we called self publishing back when I put my first book out there_. I have learned a lot over the years that has translated into what I would define as success for me, (and we all have our own definition of success) and am glad to pass along what I can to anyone, ackknowledge those first sales, and even give pats on the back for accomplishments that to some might seem trivial. Heck, I have even guided a few authors through every step of the self publishing route to see their book up there!

This thread got me riled in the beginning, but I do understand the intent behind it before it spiraled out of control. Simply for everyone to post in a more organized way, using threads that are applicable without starting new ones. Okay, we all get that now and some might even do it right from now on. Hopefully we can all move on having learned something from all this, that there are real flesh and blood people behind the screen names and avatars, and everyone wants to be treated respectfully. I really think that your words, Randi, will do more towards that goal than most of the other hundreds of comments ahead of it. And I do hope the newbies to this board, and to Indie publishing in general, will stay and continue to partipate. For me, it's those new authors that make this a fresh and energetic place to hang out.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

I was reminded that I'm hippo-critical










about these things last night when I was the first congratulatory replier to a thread for a writer I dig...


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> I've long observed that few people think they sit at the cool table, often not even the people who really, truly do. I wouldn't worry about it.


Very true. I remember in high school, I ran cross country. My team was very good and I was competitive. Yet it was treated as essentially a non-sport compared to the major sports (most of which teams had losing records despite the kids from the "cool table" playing). I just sort of assumed that not being at the cool table was the price I had to pay for my sport.

I was surprised when I got to college (a large school), and running on the intercollegiate team created a sort of instant respect. But that bothered me as well - I thought that judging me based on this fact was kind of shallow.

When I thought about this a few years later, I realized that the problem wasn't the high school kids who ridiculed running, or the college kids who gave automatic props to anyone on a team, the problem was me and my attitude towards it all. If I was having fun, working hard and improving, what difference should it make what anyone else thought, good or bad? The truth was, I was critical of myself, so I latched onto external things as a way to not have to deal with that.

Self-publishing puts these kinds of insecurities front and center. At least it has for me. Reading various threads on KB definitely helps keep them from taking over, even though I don't tend to post or even respond much specifically about it.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Posting just to delay those crickets...  

Seriously, I think we notice the threads we post on last more than all the others, and then it seems that you're the thread killer of the forum.

Back to the original topic though, as a relative newby, I must admit that I'm often confused about what is acceptable to other members.  The rules are "no promotion except in the bazaar" but it seems it's OK to put a "I've FINALLY  launched my new book, yay!" type thread int he Writers Cafe.  Is that seen as spammy?  I dont find in offensive, unless that is the person's very first post on Kindle Boards and they never post again.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

KayBratt said:


> This thread got me riled in the beginning, but I do understand the intent behind it before it spiraled out of control. *Simply for everyone to post in a more organized way, using threads that are applicable without starting new ones.*


No, that was not the intent behind the creation of this thread. Which the specific people I was addressing in the OP understood as evidenced by the first few posts.



daveconifer said:


> I was reminded that I'm hippo-critical about these things last night when I was the first congratulatory replier to a thread for a writer I dig...


Sigh.

What disturbs me is that the authors who were least offensive, least likely to offend, or had not offered an offense to begin with (Randi for example) took the anti-self promotion messages in this thread much harder than the "true" agitators who prompted the creation of this thread--the same agitators who I noticed haven't posted again in the Writers Cafe since the mods deleted their posts on Sunday since they were only here to shove their books. Don't know which threads I'm talking about? _Then this thread isn't about you._

Never understood how this thread turned into an 'us against them' slug fest when it was NEVER framed in such a manner. This thread was not started about benign congratulatory threads, sales threads, discussions, fraternizing, or advice-swapping. It was created solely to point out the shameless, blatant, and *in-your-face *self-promotion as mentioned in the OP and immediate posts following.

To put it in the frankest terms possible, if you didn't post a thread on Sunday saying _BUY MY BOOK! (Insert Title here!)_ then this thread wasn't created about you. Don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

And if you still don't get it:



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm not sure why this is complicated.
> 
> Do you post to add genuine insight into a conversation, or as an excuse to get your signature line in front of people?
> Do you start threads with legitimate concerns or questions, or to deliberately *trick* people into reading your promotional material?
> ...


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Randi, and Michelle - your posts reminded me of something. I felt _*exactly *_the way Randi describes for the longest time on here. It wasn't because of the actions of others, but my own self-esteem. I couldn't believe I had anything valid to contribute, second-guessed every word I posted, and there was more than one thread that had been active, but when I posted? Crickets chirped. Now _that_ really makes a girl feel wanted.
> 
> Now, I tend to not care so much. I guess I became more self-confident as time went on, and while there are still occasions when I need validation from my 'co-workers', I know that if I say something, it's because I have something to contribute. I'm not just posting with the desperation and hope that someone will see my words and think "Oh, she's brilliant". Which is what I thought, eons ago, I had to do - make brilliant posts every time I "opened my keyboard." Because who wants to appear ignorant in front of their co-workers?
> 
> ...


TL - I just wanted to say, I always stop to read your posts when I come across them.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Randi, and Michelle - your posts reminded me of something. I felt _*exactly *_the way Randi describes for the longest time on here. It wasn't because of the actions of others, but my own self-esteem. I couldn't believe I had anything valid to contribute, second-guessed every word I posted, and there was more than one thread that had been active, but when I posted? Crickets chirped. Now _that_ really makes a girl feel wanted.


T.L. I looked up your books last week, and I really rarely do that from here. Was interested and loved your covers so much I am negotiating a cover with your artist for my next book. So you and your work made an impact on me!


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> What disturbs me is that the authors who were least offensive, least likely to offend, or had not offered an offense to begin with (Randi for example) took the anti-self promotion messages in this thread much harder than the "true" agitators who prompted the creation of this thread--the same agitators who I noticed haven't posted again in the Writers Cafe since the mods deleted their posts on Sunday since they were only here to shove their books. Don't know which threads I'm talking about? _Then this thread isn't about you._


I think this bears repeating. I see a lot of familiar faces in here that got really upset and I was honestly very surprised, because the ones that got upset are usually the ones that provide good info and don't make a nuisance of themselves.

I'm also really sad to see a lot of commentary about 'people that sell well' being on high horses and sitting in ivory towers and whatnot. I don't consider myself part of that crowd (I sell steadily but no runaway hits, I'm afraid, no international deals, no one beating down my door for anything but returns, lol) but I have to admit that I got defensive, because I'm traditionally published as well and for a long time, there was a lot of antagonism toward trad pub people on the board. So my back always goes up as soon as I see the 'oh they think they're better than us' comments because I am a sensitive snowflake authorbeast and always think they are aimed at me.

That being said, a lot of people are coming out against the 'big sellers' and I actually wanted to chime in and say that I WANT the big guys to stay. It's not elitism. It's not sucking up. It's just that when I see people reporting five figure checks in a month, and selling 50,000 books in six months or whatever, I get excited. Because they are sharing info with us (info that you pretty much have to pry with a crowbar out of anyone that is trad pubbed). More than that, the possibility is there for EVERYONE to make that kind of money. And who doesn't want that? So I want the 'big guns' to stick around and not get bored. And I want them to keep sharing.

But I like the newbies too. I like seeing new covers and new authors, because I also like finding out what they are up to, as well. And when someone shows up out of the blue and gives details as to what they're doing and it's working, my spidey-senses tingle and I pay attention. Because I like seeing all the successes (big or small), so I might be able to shamelessly copy their success story.

I freely admit to frustration about clicking on a thread that's all "Wow! Look at this!" and it's nothing relevant to my interests. And I am forgetful enough that I click on the thread every time I drop in because I'm all "Omg! What is this interesting info someone is sharing!?" and then it's the same old stuff again.  I also admit to being really tired of all the KDP Select threads. And that's just me being sour and cranky because I don't want to go KDP Select, and it doesn't interest me. I get that it interests a lot of people. I still vote for a child board of our child board so people can play freely in Select-land and us fussy codgers that don't want to don't have to be reminded of how much money everyone else is making. And that's just my personal wants and needs and it doesn't really have anything to do with anything but me, of course.

I do think the mods do a great job, though. We cannot be an easy group to moderate, and we post at the speed of lightning. However, if we are taking suggestions, this potty mouth would like the opportunity to cuss more (Betsy, if you are listening).


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

jillmyles said:


> I see a lot of familiar faces in here that got really upset and I was honestly very surprised, because the ones that got upset are usually the ones that provide good info and don't make a nuisance of themselves.


Exactly.



jillmyles said:


> I'm also really sad to see a lot of commentary about 'people that sell well' being on high horses and sitting in ivory towers and whatnot.


I'm sorry to see it too. Sadly, this has been going on here for the last year or so. Some of us can't disagree with someone on this forum anymore without being called an elitist.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Deb Martin said:


> OMG - the epic David vs. David post....


Well, I'm done with this subject but what I really want to know is _where_ to find the famous David Vs. David post!


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

KayBratt said:


> Well, I'm done with this subject but what I really want to know is _where_ to find the famous David Vs. David post!


http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,29976.0.html


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,29976.0.html


Okay, now that's funny (and creative). *applause*


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## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

@randi - one thing I have learned is that people never observe you as you think they do. In college, I could be very quiet, as is still the case.  I grew used to people not liking me because they thought I was standoffish. Is that a word? Anyway, one day a pretty blonde walked up to me when I was alone and gushed at how mysterious I was.

I like seeing your posts and I remember you because you're one of the few authors who has a vvery closeup and smiling picture. Your cheery picture made me think you were one of the 'cool' people. But as someone below said, the cool people usually don't think jtheyre the cool people and the those that really are cool don't care.

Life is just mirrors and misunderstandings.

Thanks for your great post.

And lest people misread my post, I am in no way knocking the cool people on this board because they are both old and newbie.

Caedem


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## Randirogue (Apr 25, 2011)

Um... WOW. I am honored and humbled (and of course embarrassed) by all these responses to my comment. I had feared it'd be a thread-killer (and thought myself _so_ brave  for hitting "post" at the time), but I hadn't remotely expected this much attention from it. I don't even know what to say in response to all those incredibly heartfelt, considerate, encouraging, and helpful comments made about it. Thank you, for certain. Beyond that, I'm simply awed. So much so that it took me this long to post about it (3 days I think). It took this long to be able to keep myself finger-tied so I don't try to edit the post for embarrassment aspects and typos (which I'm sure there were many as I was seriously tired and typing one handed on my iPad). But, I will respect those requests on that front (and swallow my squeamishness for allowing those typos to remain, lol).

I do hope the discussion would get back on topic and off of me and my silly little (or not so little, I suppose) post. I find heated discussions fascinating. I learn a lot of insights when some of the silky bonds of politeness slip away and commenters speak a little more directly of their opinion. Even when I don't agree to an opinion, I file it away for later consideration. I figure, even if I may never swing to that sort of spectrum, characters could. Maybe not on the same specific topic, but in the facets of competing and/or adjacent opinions of a topic (any topic). I've discovered that when it comes to understanding layers of a conflict, reading heated discussions in which multiple people participate are fantastic tools/resources for learning subtle nuances amongst differential thoughts, allegiances, and rationale, as well as the passions that drive them. I may not personally thrive on conflict and adversity, but plots can. But that is tangential all on its own.

So, please, don't let my sharing temper this thread too much. If you have more to say on the original post topic (and subsequent extensions and tangents), please continue.

Plus, it'd remove some of that spotlight off of me. (Ow, my eyes. Hides behind hair. ~_~ooo)

Thank you, again.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

CaedemMarquez said:


> Life is just mirrors and misunderstandings.


Thanks for that quote, Caedem. I've stolen it for my profile line. I hope you don't mind.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,29976.0.html


I have to admit that I just had to forcibly remove myself from page 3 or else I'd end up reading all 68 pages of that thread.


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## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

jnfr said:


> Thanks for that quote, Caedem. I've stolen it for my profile line. I hope you don't mind.


Not a problem! But, as far as I know, I made it up so maybe I should trade mark it! So if you wanna put "-Caedem Marquez" after the quote then you'll be safe from the trademark mafia. 

Caedem


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

Alas, I'm not allowed that many letters! So I added your initials and it will be our little secret.


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