# Kindle Scout - Amazon Crowd-source publishing submissions open



## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Thoughts?

https://kindlescout.amazon.com/submit


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## BatCauldron (Oct 2, 2013)

Currently undecided. Did just find this blog post, though, which highlights a couple of thoughs I'd had - http://www.jimchines.com/2014/10/kindle-scout/

Also there are points other KBers have made about how 'easy' the reversion of rights will really be. I.e., the implication that if your book IS selling well (above the clip levels they suggest) then you _can't_ easily get the rights back.

There still seems to be a lot of speculation about what this system will or won't be, and while I'm not saying Amazon are prevaricating, I haven't seen enough definitive information from them yet to have a fully formed view.

Definitely watching this space with interest, though.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm not sure Amazon's idea is going to work very well.  The main problem is crowd-sourcing the picking of the winners.  The problem is, if you were to tell a thousand people they could pick whatever they wanted to eat, but they all had to choose the same item, you're going to end up with a McDonald's hamburger.  There may be a chunk of that thousand who like gourmet food, but there's a large, hard core of crowd members who won't touch anything they haven't tried before, and who really want a hamburger.  The latter will win by sheer numbers.  

Taste-makers have always been necessary in the arts to find and point out the good stuff.  Most people aren't exploratory or adventurous enough to make good critics.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Interested to know how they're going to present it to readers. Will they select readers from a particular pool or just release wide, as I'd wager there's a very high chance of the voting system being gamed if it's released to the general public.


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## S.A. Mulraney (May 20, 2011)

Bit surprised this didn't generate more discussion. Where are the usual firebrands and pitchforks? Where are the "Amazon is the devil/taking over the world" statements? C'mon people!


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2014)

At this point in time, I'm so disillusioned with trad. publishing that I don't think I'd ever go that route again, and this is too close to trad. publishing for my comfort. IMO, the low advance is not enough to compensate for a 50% NET royalty, even with the added advertising and exposure you'd get from an Amazon imprint. However, I can see the value for newer authors, or those who still want trad. publishing or a hybrid career.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

I'll watch from the sidelines (it's not open to anyone outside the US, so I can't submit anyway). I'm not sure why I'd submit to their lottery, tbh.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong with it. I took a careful look at all aspects of working with an Amazon imprint last month and ultimately decided it would most likely be a very good thing for my career. This is another "in" at APub.

If you write relatively fast, what's the harm of trying one title with a publisher who has a track record of promoting books well, and for a long time, not just the first few months after release? If it tanks, you can write six more books between the time you submit and when you realize the book has tanked (if you even win.)

If you're a slower writer, it would definitely be more of a risk and harder to justify.


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## DC Swain (Feb 24, 2013)

Catherine Gardiner said:


> I think I am the only excited person about this and I can't participate because I am from the UK.


I have heard (yet to be confirmed) that you can access it from outside the US. The stated requirements are to have a SSN/TIN and a US bank account.

You should already have an ITIN to avoid witholding by the zon, and if you use Payoneer then "in theory" you have a US bank account - thereby filling both requirements...

As I said though, this is a theory, not sure if anyone has/will try it to confirm


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## ToriWritesWords (Mar 26, 2014)

To me, this model looks a lot like http://swoonreads.com/ which is a YA romance imprint from MacMillan, and is doing the same thing. They've been doing it for a year, and have published their first title already, and I think they've acquired at least one more book since then.

It's just another way to get published. I don't have any problem with it, although I haven't looked at the Scout contract terms.

I've considered submitting a book to Swoon Reads, and I'd probably consider this, but I think it's easier just to query agents or pitch to small presses if that's the way you want to go. Then again, I've never had much luck with crowdsourced reading sites, like Figment.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

Kit Tunstall said:


> At this point in time, I'm so disillusioned with trad. publishing that I don't think I'd ever go that route again, and this is too close to trad. publishing for my comfort.


That's kind of what I was thinking. Other than the initial $1,500 and the potential push by Amazon, I don't see much here that interests me. I'd still be doing all the work, including running around and trying to get "votes," and I can make up the $1,500 eventually. But for those who want to test the waters, more power to them, and good luck.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I think it's a pretty good deal. Being endorsed by Amazon is priceless. Plus, they've raised the total royalties required before rights reversion to $25k from $5k. If I decide to write the scifi series I had planned before I started my current erotica experiment, going this route might be a great opportunity, especially if I want to publish under my real name. I'll be keeping my eye on it. 

Also, it's ultimately Amazon execs who choose who gets published. It isn't entirely dependent on votes, so It can't be gamed.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

This looks, feels and smells like Authonomy.

Been there, done that, not going back again. In fact, I'm currently running for the hills.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

S.A. Mulraney said:


> Bit surprised this didn't generate more discussion. Where are the usual firebrands and pitchforks? Where are the "Amazon is the devil/taking over the world" statements? C'mon people!


Alright, I'll ramble.

Interesting that it's exclusively novel-length work. Makes sense with their existing programs for shorts and serials. Also interesting is that only the first 5k words will show, just like a Look Inside. I recently bought a book that gripped me, transfixed me for the first 10%, then disappointed me for the last 85%. I suppose that technique will work as well in Kindle Scout as it does in the real world.

The Thank You Note bit is very interesting. Simply putting your work up to ballot could be a useful marketing exercise, especially if you're able to walk away with some mailing list signups. If your work doesn't get picked, you can publish it yourself after the 45 day campaign ends (and email all those new subscribers who were rooting for you). If it does get published, the automatic ARCs are a cool feature.

Campaign demo page is pretty neat. I wish it showed all of the UX elements, like nomination buttons. Seems clear it's not finished. I wonder if the demo book is a real manuscript from a chap working at Amazon, as it says in the Q&A.

Interesting that you can only nominate three titles at a time.

We heard in a previous thread that 50% net is very close to 50% gross in existing Amazon publishing ventures. The drop from 70% to 50% is much more significant. I would worry about that, but not the net distinction.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if 50% royalties becomes a norm in KDP at some point. ACX went that way, obviously, and I don't expect Amazon's competitors to up their game substantially, so that's the trend line as far as I'm concerned. Not making any specific predictions, not trying to start an argument about this. I just don't think it's a given that KDP will grant higher royalties than Scout forever.

$25,000 is, well, five times better than $5,000.

If I was going to do submit, I'd do so assuming that I will never, ever get the rights to my work back. I get $1,500 and what's likely to be Amazon's level best effort to sell at least $5,000 in royalties from that title each year, plus the exposure, and in exchange I lose all rights to the title. Forever.

To me, it comes across as an interesting option for authors who're already doing well enough to roll the dice and lose a novel in the worst case scenario. If you don't have a backlist already, the exposure isn't going to do a ton for you, and you're delaying publication by at least 45 days (bound to take longer than that if you do get selected and published). If you're more established, and you've got more novels than you know what to do with, it could expose your work to new readers, give you more bites at the algo apple. I'd consider it at that point.


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## sbaum4853 (May 3, 2010)

It's really all about how much marketing muscle Amazon is going to put behind the titles they select. They have the power to put you into the Top 100 in a few hours if they want to do it.

I'm not jumping in, though. I've spent enough time and energy over the past three years building an audience that the loss of 20% of my royalties is too much of a risk. If I was brand new with my first novel, I might give it a go.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Much like Amazon Studios various script-developing efforts, you have to pre-agree to their contract as part of submitting. Not a huge fan of that. I wonder what happens if they take one book in a series…do they automatically get distribution rights to the others?


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## DC Swain (Feb 24, 2013)

dcswain said:


> I have heard (yet to be confirmed) that you can access it from outside the US. The stated requirements are to have a SSN/TIN and a US bank account.
> 
> You should already have an ITIN to avoid witholding by the zon, and if you use Payoneer then "in theory" you have a US bank account - thereby filling both requirements...
> 
> As I said though, this is a theory, not sure if anyone has/will try it to confirm


Turns out I was wrong on the Payoneer front, this is from their FAQ:

Are you able to make payments via third party payment platforms such as PayPal or *Payoneer*?
No, we do not offer payment via third party payment platforms. We'll pay you by electronic funds transfer in US dollars directly to your US bank account.


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## Ward_S (Jun 9, 2014)

Do you just lose your ebook and audio rights to Amazon?  If so, I might actually send them one of my novels (well actually just a novel, it was my first book) although not my flagship one I'm currently trying to finish up.  If they pick you, it can only help you out in the marketing department.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

> This Agreement sets forth our rights in your complete work, which includes the manuscript, cover art, supplementary materials and any other content that you submit to Kindle Scout using the submission tool on the Kindle Scout website (collectively, in whole or in part, and including any revisions and supplementary materials you later provide outside of the Kindle Scout website, your "Work")....
> 
> ...5. Rights You Grant to Us. Effective as of the Selection Date and for as long as these Publishing Terms remain in force, you grant us and our affiliates the exclusive, irrevocable, worldwide right to publish e-book and audio editions of your Work, in whole and in part, in all languages, along with those rights reasonably necessary to effectuate those rights. This includes the rights to develop, license, sublicense, reproduce, publish, distribute, translate, display and transmit, your Work and any other materials you deliver to us in connection with your Work (including the Submission Materials), create condensed, adapted, abridged, interactive and enhanced editions of your Work, and include your Work in anthology or omnibus editions. All rights not expressly granted to us in this Agreement (including the right to publish print editions) are reserved for your sole use and disposition.


So to answer a couple questions: no, you don't appear to sign away rights to any subsequent works in the same series, just every single thing you submitted with the Kindle Scout submission tool. They don't own anything like the characters, or the world--just this one novel.

And yes, all you're signing away is audio and ebooks. Everything's gone with those two formats, including translation, incorporation into anthologies, &c.

Isn't it interesting that they don't care about print rights? That suggests to me that they don't think print books are worthwhile. Their customers don't want them, or they don't see a good way to make a profit on them (perhaps because their customers don't want them).

*ETA:* Obviously the reason they'd have that rule with screenplays is that pilots are purpose-built to initiate series. Novels could potentially stand alone, but I wonder...they may not pick books that are clearly meant to begin series, or they may approach you about a deal for the whole thing. It does seem like it'd be weird for everybody involved if they put out the first book in a series and none of the sequels.

My gut tells me that they'll only be interested in standalone work, and may balk at potential series. The boilerplate Kindle Scout contract isn't at all suited for anything more than a one-off.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

the word that jumps out to me is "adapted"…which might be interpreted to mean they can create sequels to your work on their own. But it is interesting that, unlike more screenplay contracts, there is no specific language about characters.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

How about...self publish and then ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY on the book, and if you make a ton of money because lots of people like it, consider the trad deals that come to you.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

ʬ said:


> How about...self publish and then ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY on the book, and if you make a ton of money because lots of people like it, consider the trad deals that come to you.


This.



ElHawk said:


> I don't see anything wrong with it. I took a careful look at all aspects of working with an Amazon imprint last month and ultimately decided it would most likely be a very good thing for my career. This is another "in" at APub.


I generally agree with you ELH but submitting to Amazon's Kindle Scout would be like auditioning for a dance routine. Very different from the surety of being picked up by an imprint.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

ʬ said:


> How about...self publish and then ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY on the book, and if you make a ton of money because lots of people like it, consider the trad deals that come to you.


When was the last time an indy was offered 50% of net on ebooks and audio by tradpub? Publishing a title through Kindle Scout is entirely different from reissuing an existing, successful title through a new tradpub deal. If there's one thing that indies benefit from with tradpub deals, it's print distribution, and Amazon doesn't even care if you sell those rights off on a title in Scout. It doesn't make much sense to couch tradpub and Scout as alternatives. They're not even mutually exclusive.

Anyhow, I think it's mostly got potential as a promotional exercise more than anything. Hard to say if they'd ever be publishing enough books by a single author to build a career on, but in terms of building your readership-and thus, your sales-it could be more useful to publish with Scout than to chuck out another book on your own.

The question is whether Scout brings something unique to the table in terms of Amazon's promotional apparatus. If so, it probably won't be anything that tradpub or self-pub alternatives could replicate, and it could be a great boon to toss a book or two in that direction. If not, it's probably a horrible waste of time and novels.



Wansit said:


> I generally agree with you ELH but submitting to Amazon's Kindle Scout would be like auditioning for a dance routine. Very different from the surety of being picked up by an imprint.


What's your guaranteed method for being picked up by an imprint?


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2014)

I have just finished the first book of a brand spanking new series as I received the email about this and I got curious enough to consider submitting this new work... then realised it was US only.  

Oh well.. since it is going to be a huge popularity contest and that is not something I am ever going to succeed at, I will likely give it a miss anyway. 
All it would take would be one person with x amount of fans or followers or whatever to submit a book and they will surge ahead with votes, so kinda rubbish for newbies to get a foot in the door.


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

Meh. I'll bite and submit my novel I'm working on when the time comes. What have I got to lose other than about 60 days of my life when I could upload new material and still make some money. While some may run toward the hills, I sprint towards the ball of fiery death with open arms swinging wildly like the mad-man I am. 


*Takes another swig of scotch*


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Avis Black said:


> Taste-makers have always been necessary in the arts to find and point out the good stuff. Most people aren't exploratory or adventurous enough to make good critics.


Score another point for the "we need gate-keepers, gate-keepers are good, they are smarter than the average book reader" folks.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Catherine Gardiner said:


> I think I am the only excited person about this and I can't participate because I am from the UK.


I'm cautiously excited about it. Planning on digging into the details of the "terms of use" and such soon. If it makes sense for me, I may put an ms. in and see how it does.

At worst, I get the ms. back in 45 days and go the KDP route. 

But I'll need a ms. I think is right for it, that is also completed, before I do that, though. I've been too busy publishing lately, so my stack of eligible manuscripts has... shrunk a bit.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> Isn't it interesting that they don't care about print rights? That suggests to me that they don't think print books are worthwhile. Their customers don't want them, or they don't see a good way to make a profit on them (perhaps because their customers don't want them).


This jumped out at me, too. Filed for future reference.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> We heard in a previous thread that 50% net is very close to 50% gross in existing Amazon publishing ventures. The drop from 70% to 50% is much more significant. I would worry about that, but not the net distinction.
> 
> Also, I wouldn't be surprised if 50% royalties becomes a norm in KDP at some point. ACX went that way, obviously, and I don't expect Amazon's competitors to up their game substantially, so that's the trend line as far as I'm concerned. Not making any specific predictions, not trying to start an argument about this. I just don't think it's a given that KDP will grant higher royalties than Scout forever.
> 
> $25,000 is, well, five times better than $5,000.


$25K is a better standard than $5K so that's already an improvement.

That said, while "forever" is a mighty long time, and a word I seldom use without caution, I will counter your point and suggest that KDP itself will stay at 70% for... a while yet.

Here's why: KDP is still a "do it all yourself" sort of venture.

Amazon has a stated public opinion (in regard to Hachette) that they are happy with 30% and think the remaining 70% should be split evenly between publisher and author.

Since KDP is a gateway for those who want to act as both full publisher AND fill author, 70% seems unlikely to change in the near-term.

However, Kindle Scout is entirely different and more like being signed to an Amazon imprint like Thomas & Mercer.

Amazon will be handling Scout books like they do T&M in that they will take on promotional efforts and such that KDP authors would otherwise have to decide to invest in on their own.

I see the 50/50 split as being reflective of the greater involvement Amazon will have in the success of Scout books vs. KDP books.

For that reason, I think in the near-term we'll see that 50/50 thing be more of a Scout/T&M/Amazon Imprint thing, while KDP stays at 70/30 since those authors are doing more of a "go it alone" route. (Which is what the indie life is about.)

By the time it changes, I'm guessing that the market as it now stands will change a lot, too. Who knows what the face of publishing will look like by, say, 2019 or 2020?

But do I expect 70% to go away in the next couple years?

Possible, but unlikely.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> *ETA:* Obviously the reason they'd have that rule with screenplays is that pilots are purpose-built to initiate series. Novels could potentially stand alone, but I wonder...they may not pick books that are clearly meant to begin series, or they may approach you about a deal for the whole thing. It does seem like it'd be weird for everybody involved if they put out the first book in a series and none of the sequels.
> 
> My gut tells me that they'll only be interested in standalone work, and may balk at potential series. The boilerplate Kindle Scout contract isn't at all suited for anything more than a one-off.


My speculation is this:

The clue is in the name: Kindle SCOUT.

It's gonna kinda be like Star Search for writers. If that reference is too dated, call it American Idol for writers.

Not with judges and public humiliation and such; but more along the lines of it being a talent search. They are scouting out great writers with this imprint.

My best guess is, IF you survive a one-month competition to come out as one of the top vote-getters, AND the scrutiny of their editors, AND get a Kindle Scout contract, it seems likely that, if your book does well at all, they'd probably approach you via Thomas & Mercer about future titles, rather than having you continue to go through the Kindle Scout program over and over again.

The idea, I think, is to find talent and then move them on from the talent-finding imprint, over to a better deal with one of their bigger imprints.

(Ex. After Carrie Underwood won American Idol, did she ever need to compete a second time to get her next record out? Nope. They'd found someone America embraced and so she won better deals and better terms after her initial American Idol deal ran its course.)


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

Hmm. Upon reading through the TOS, it seems they have the right to terminate publishment of your novel at any time due to any reason, and you're SOL for 2 years from electronically signing it (submitting and agreeing to the terms). I'm not sure what to think of that. There has to be one person who'll guinea pig it. I'll slow down my sprint to the ball of the fiery death and possible impending doom.


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

Not a bad deal.  The indemnity clause would need to be amended to say any claims etc "sustained in a court of law" - that way, Amazon can't settle and stick the author with the bill.  The only other point I would seek to amend is the 25% for audio royalties - no reason it can't be 50%.  But as for the 50% for ebook sales: in effect, the author is trading the 20% more, given in the 70% with no advance in straightforward Kindle publishing, for the $1500 advance given in this Scout deal.  Not the worst deal for a book with moderate or, even more so, low sales.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

PaulLev said:


> The only other point I would seek to amend is the 25% for audio royalties - no reason it can't be 50%.


Sure there is; unless you're going to record the thing yourself, they're probably giving a 25 percent royalty to the vocal artist recording your audiobook.


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

CraigInOregon said:


> Sure there is; unless you're going to record the thing yourself, they're probably giving a 25 percent royalty to the vocal artist recording your audiobook.


Fair enough - but I'd prefer to negotiate directly with the vocal artist, if I wasn't recording the reading myself.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Deke said:


> I generally agree with you ELH but submitting to Amazon's Kindle Scout would be like auditioning for a dance routine. Very different from the surety of being picked up by an imprint.


The ultimate decision is made by acquisitions editors at the imprints. The crowdsourcing part of the program is just a way to narrow down the slush field.  So in the end, even if you make it all the way through the "audition" you still might not get a deal. In the end, it _is_ being picked by an imprint.

It sounds kind of fun to me. If I had something new from another pen name right now, I'd totally enter just to watch how I did throughout the "audition." But then, I love a good competition, and the more public, the better.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Dolphin said:


> What's your guaranteed method for being picked up by an imprint?


I'm saying comparing ELH's experience with being picked up by an imprint of Amazon versus pitching this to a new Amazon venture aren't the same thing. They picked her, she didn't have pitch to them alongside 500 other applicants.

RE the terms, 50% of audio is better than what you get through ACX currently so that's a boon but worth loosing potentially 20% in revenue from ebooks without the guarantee of Zon promotional backing...I don't think so.


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> This looks, feels and smells like Authonomy.
> 
> Been there, done that, not going back again. In fact, I'm currently running for the hills.


This. And me too!


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Wansit said:


> I'm saying comparing ELH's experience with being picked up by an imprint of Amazon versus pitching this to a new Amazon venture aren't the same thing. They picked her, she didn't have pitch to them alongside 500 other applicants.


I'm not actually sure she's had anything picked up by an imprint. I think she was just saying that she'd accept if it was offered, more or less. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Regardless, you don't get to that point without having gone through some sort of vetting process-a popularity contest, if only among the editorial staff-so it's not as though Kindle Scout is substantially different in that regard. You lose the manuscript for 45 days, but otherwise it's just a question of putting it up with the blurb, cover, and Q&A. Optionally, rally whatever troops you have and ask them to nominate you.

It's obvious that your work won't necessarily be selected, but I'd be extremely surprised if you were published by any other imprint with equally minimal wooing.



Wansit said:


> RE the terms, 50% of audio is better than what you get through ACX currently so that's a boon but worth loosing potentially 20% in revenue from ebooks without the guarantee of Zon promotional backing...I don't think so.


Sorry, I might've contributed to confusion on that point: it's actually 25%. 50% for ebooks, 25% for audiobooks, 20% for ebooks in translation.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

PaulLev said:


> Fair enough - but I'd prefer to negotiate directly with the vocal artist, if I wasn't recording the reading myself.


And when you go KDP, you can. This is different.

Sent from my LG G2 Android Phone.


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

CraigInOregon said:


> And when you go KDP, you can. This is different.


Exactly - that was my point.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Looking at Section 6 of the agreement, as well as Section 7, it seems to me the reversion process is actually rather author-friendly compared to the terms many trad-pubs put into place.



> 6. Term; Reversion.
> 
> 6.1 Term; Minimum Royalties. These Publishing Terms will become effective on the Selection Date and automatically renew every five years. If you do not earn at least $25,000 in royalties during any of those five-year terms, you can request your rights back within six months after the end of the five-year term in which you did not earn $25,000 in royalties by notifying us by email at [email protected], and we will promptly revert your rights and terminate these Publishing Terms.
> 
> ...


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Okay, I have carefully reviewed the contract posted on the Kindle Scout site.

At this point in time, I am satisfied that it is a rather fair contract with plenty of room for reversion of rights and an acceptable set of terms. Some of them are more author-friendly than I anticipated, whereas others are about equal in restrictiveness to a standard contract with a trad-pub.

No contract is perfect, and this one is not. However, I do believe that -- at least for me -- I would feel comfortable with the terms, if I choose to submit a piece to Kindle Scout and am subsequently selected for publication via Kindle Press.

I even have a book I'm working on that I may decide to use as the guinea pig for trying out Kindle Scout.

And based on what I've read, it does appear to be a "one-and-done" sort of deal. There's a restriction against submitting more than one manuscript for consideration, for example. So it does seem to be a talent-scout program and I would imagine my previous speculation is correct: if your book performs well for Amazon, and they want to do more with you, they would likely approach you via Thomas & Mercer, 47North, or whichever Amazon imprint best fits your genre.

We'll see how things go... I may select a novel-length project to test this out, but it'll probably be 2015 before I have that project ready. (The book I sometimes refer to as Project Texter, but which has a completely different title, is the one I'd probably submit.)


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

I was going to launch my WIP on December 1st, but I think I'm going to submit it to Amazon Scout instead. I haven't told anyone my original planned launch date, but I can point them to the book's profile page for voting.

The terms sound fair to me.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Will C. Brown said:


> I was going to launch my WIP on December 1st, but I think I'm going to submit it to Amazon Scout instead. I haven't told anyone my original planned launch date, but I can point them to the book's profile page for voting.
> 
> The terms sound fair to me.


Congrats, Will.

Best of luck.


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## Alan Spade (Feb 28, 2014)

I have blogged about Kindle Scout without reading this thread, and it appears that I agree with what CraigInOregon says:

Amazon just launched a new publishing service, Kindle Scout, for English-language ebooks (50,000 words or more) in the Romance, Mystery & Thriller and Science Fiction & Fantasy genres. Kindle Scout allows your ebook to be considered for publication in Kindle Press for a period of 45 days or less. My thoughts about the Kindle Press & Submission Agreement.

First, we have to note that Kindle Scout is an opportunity for Amazon to test your book among readers during 45 days. This kind of testing is beneficial to both parties, because it should get the indies' books before the eyes of many readers, and that's what all indies authors strive for. But it's above all beneficial to Amazon, because, as we'll see, the terms of the Kindle Press Agreement are more interesting for Amazon than the 30% Amazon gets for ebooks priced between $2.99 and $9.99 via Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP).

The Kindle Press agreement states that the Publishing Terms will automatically renew every five years, so it's worth noticing that this is not really a renewable contract rather than a life contract for the ebook version (the paper is not concerned), provided the book sells well.

How well? You have two very important types of reversion provisions:

- after two years of publication by Kindle Press, if 12 consecutive months have resulted in total royalties payable to you of less than $500 US Dollars
- after five years of publication by Kindle Press, if you do not earn at least $25,000 in royalties during any of those five-year terms, you can request your rights back within six months after the end of the five-year term in which you did not earn $25,000.

That means, in my opinion, that if your book earns $25,000 in royalties or more in five year (that's $5000 in royalties a year, which is more than $10,000 in sales by year, or more than $50,000 overall), the contract will be continued indefinitely.

However, if it's the first book in a series, you don't seem to be forced to publish the others with Kindle Press.

If your ebook has been validated, Kindle Press gives you a $1,500 advance and 50% of net revenue for ebooks. One of the biggest question I have is: what is "net revenue" exactly? The official response from Amazon: ""Net Revenue" means, for each format or edition of your Work, the gross amounts we actually receive from the sale of copies of that format or edition, less customer returns, digital transmission costs and bad debt, and excluding taxes.

So, I see it as 50% of 100% of the wholesale price, less customer returns, digital transmission costs and bad debt, and taxes. Still better than the 50% of net from the publishers, I think which amount only for 17,5% in reality. I hope not to be mistaken here, and we'll have to hear authors published by Kindle Press to know exactly.

The reporting: you are being provided monthly royalty statements. Kindle Press will pay royalties within 60 days following the end of each month. "Payments due in connection with sales by unaffiliated third party sublicensees will be made within 60 days."

It's worth noting that this is not a daily report as with KDP.

My final thoughts:

- you lose the ability to set the price for the ebook, to do promos, to have control over your ebook
- it's your cover (you paid for it) and your editing (you paid for it), but the advance is only $1,500 (very weak)
- your royalties are weaker than with KDP for ebooks priced between $2.99 and $9.99
- you are given access to a new platform which could be very valuable
- you are given back audio and language rights in two years if they haven't been exploited
- the real royalty you'll get remains to be seen exactly, but is better than traditional publishing
- you lose your access to other platforms than Amazon

In conclusion, would I use Kindle Press? Perhaps, because it could still be a means to get my work in front of more readers, if this new platform, Kindle Scout, really allows us to reach more readers. That's a big "if". So I would say it could be worth it for a first book of a series, but not necessarily the others.

My blog: http://alanspade.blogspot.fr/


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## J.L. Dickinson (Jul 12, 2014)

This, most definitely.



Dolphin said:


> To me, it comes across as an interesting option for authors who're already doing well enough to roll the dice and lose a novel in the worst case scenario. If you don't have a backlist already, the exposure isn't going to do a ton for you, and you're delaying publication by at least 45 days (bound to take longer than that if you do get selected and published). If you're more established, and you've got more novels than you know what to do with, it could expose your work to new readers, give you more bites at the algo apple. I'd consider it at that point.


It occurred to me as I was reading it, that the true 'winners' here might not be the individual(s) who receive the contract with Amazon. The 'runners up' would receive tons free publicity and be able to publish with readers lining up to buy their book right out of the gate. Furthermore, those readers who voted for the book are likely to help push the book via word of mouth if it meets their expectations when it comes out. If the author has a backlist they'll likely see additional sales there during the 45 day period as well.

My mindset going in would be: 'Please, don't let me win the contract with Amazon. Let place 2nd or 3rd in the voting and captivate/excite that many readers, and gain that much exposure before my _independent _launch retaining 70%.'


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## William Peter Grasso (May 1, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> This looks, feels and smells like Authonomy.
> 
> Been there, done that, not going back again. In fact, I'm currently running for the hills.


Amen. Amazon Scout is a writing contest, plain and simple. Crowd-sourcing, my foot. 
I can smell the gears grinding now as avid participants line up their friends to vote for their book.
WPG


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## KL801 (Apr 4, 2012)

I have a question I haven't seen addressed. The sf novel I am now finishing is the third in a trilogy--the first two, which have done okay but not great online, were originally published in the eighties. My agent said she would look at it, but I don't want to wait the year or so that it would take from submission to acceptance to publication, so have planned to self-pub on the web in any case. My question is: what about submitting the third book in a series? It was written as a standalone book that will almost certainly be read by fans of the first two. Any opinions?


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## Alan Spade (Feb 28, 2014)

@KL801: it could work. My suggestion was to create a series with standalone books and to submit the first volume, but if these are standalones, you could definitely submit the third!


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

J.L. Dickinson said:


> My mindset going in would be: 'Please, don't let me win the contract with Amazon. Let place 2nd or 3rd in the voting and captivate/excite that many readers, and gain that much exposure before my _independent _launch retaining 70%.'


Ha. That's my thinking. I'm going in thinking that my chances are low that I'd win a deal, but I'll be looking at it with curiosity at how many eyes I can get on the book. Will each book in the category be part of a large visual grid or will my book be buried in the rankings.


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## KL801 (Apr 4, 2012)

Thanks for your take on it, Alan Spade. I think I have nothing to lose, except a little time, by going for it. One further question: I have a commitment for blurbs from two well-known people in the field. Is that irrelevant to the Kindle Scout venture?


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## amyates (Feb 17, 2014)

At first this didn't particularly appeal to me, since I can't see any of my current projects working for it. But then I read this:



> Never-before-published just means that your book should not have been made available for sale anywhere in the past, in any format, including on Amazon. However, manuscripts that have appeared on blogs or social media sites - where you share drafts of your work, but can't receive money for them - are eligible.


So . . . Wattpad stories are eligible? I have a couple of them up (ones I hadn't really planned to publish and had been sitting in the drawer), and was thinking about putting up another, so maybe I'll put it up on Scout too. As others have said, if nothing else, it seems like a good chance to get some more name recognition. Something to consider, Wattpaders?


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## Alan Spade (Feb 28, 2014)

@KL801:


> I have a commitment for blurbs from two well-known people in the field. Is that irrelevant to the Kindle Scout venture?


Difficult to answer. Some people would perhaps feel your book shouldn't compete, if they think Kindle Scout is only for newbies, but I think the vast majority would be positively influenced by a blurb from a legitimate (and renowned) source.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

J.L. Dickinson said:


> It occurred to me as I was reading it, that the true 'winners' here might not be the individual(s) who receive the contract with Amazon. The 'runners up' would receive tons free publicity and be able to publish with readers lining up to buy their book right out of the gate. Furthermore, those readers who voted for the book are likely to help push the book via word of mouth if it meets their expectations when it comes out. If the author has a backlist they'll likely see additional sales there during the 45 day period as well.
> 
> My mindset going in would be: 'Please, don't let me win the contract with Amazon. Let place 2nd or 3rd in the voting and captivate/excite that many readers, and gain that much exposure before my _independent _launch retaining 70%.'


Yeah, I think that could be true. It's sort of like a pre-order, but without sales in advance. Your book is out there, the sample is visible, people can take concrete action (nominating it and receiving your thank you note with a mailing list link), buzz can build. If Amazon doesn't pick it up, by gosh your readers will know what to do once you publish it: buy my book and show them how wrong they were!



KL801 said:


> I have a question I haven't seen addressed. The sf novel I am now finishing is the third in a trilogy--the first two, which have done okay but not great online, were originally published in the eighties. My agent said she would look at it, but I don't want to wait the year or so that it would take from submission to acceptance to publication, so have planned to self-pub on the web in any case. My question is: what about submitting the third book in a series? It was written as a standalone book that will almost certainly be read by fans of the first two. Any opinions?


I can't imagine that'd make sense to me if I was on Kindle Scout's editorial team.

Do you have the rights to the first two books? We're all fans of self-publishing here, but it might be complicated if you're switching platforms in the middle of a series.


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## KL801 (Apr 4, 2012)

I have all rights to the first two books. While it's true I'm not a "newbie," I am starting over in a sense. It has been thirty years since the first books were published. One of them won a couple of awards... but does the mere fact of their existence make it less likely that the "scouts" would want the third one? Because if it did well, I'd think they'd like to have the first two also.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

KL801 said:


> I have all rights to the first two books. While it's true I'm not a "newbie," I am starting over in a sense. It has been thirty years since the first books were published. One of them won a couple of awards... but does the mere fact of their existence make it less likely that the "scouts" would want the third one? Because if it did well, I'd think they'd like to have the first two also.


If it stands alone so well that you don't even need to bring up the other books, maybe that'd be fine. I just don't think I'd be eager to start Scout off with a title that's missing any context. Scout isn't built for series. Their existing imprints would be a much better fit, so if they did want to pick you up, I'd think those would be more likely either way.

It's great that you've got all the rights, though. You're in a position to launch a series straight out of the gate, and that's the stuff that indy dreams are made of.


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

amyates said:


> So . . . Wattpad stories are eligible? I have a couple of them up (ones I hadn't really planned to publish and had been sitting in the drawer), and was thinking about putting up another, so maybe I'll put it up on Scout too. As others have said, if nothing else, it seems like a good chance to get some more name recognition. Something to consider, Wattpaders?


I think that's exactly what they meant, but just didn't want to say it outright.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

KL801 said:


> I have a question I haven't seen addressed. The sf novel I am now finishing is the third in a trilogy--the first two, which have done okay but not great online, were originally published in the eighties. My agent said she would look at it, but I don't want to wait the year or so that it would take from submission to acceptance to publication, so have planned to self-pub on the web in any case. My question is: what about submitting the third book in a series? It was written as a standalone book that will almost certainly be read by fans of the first two. Any opinions?


As long as the third book has not been published in any form previously, it would appear to be acceptable, based on the criteria detailed in their FAQ.

Might want to go over to the site and read all the details for yourself; basic questions like this will be answered.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Please note:

I saw nothing in the agreement that says your book is in direct competition with other books at the time your campaign is launched.

This is an intriguing omission.

First of all, we know that Kindle Press editors evaluate the submitted manuscripts before deciding to "launch a campaign." So it's not just pure crowd-sourcing as they appear to retain the option of NOT running a campaign on some manuscripts.

There's no mention of head-to-head competitions.

My thought is this, for whatever it's worth:

The KP editors weed out the manuscripts they don't think are strong enough.

They run campaigns as a further step of weeding out manuscripts that don't connect with readers.

Let's say they liked a manuscript well enough to launch a campaign, but it only drew 20 nominations, while another manuscript drew 20,000 and another drew 35,000.

Under a scenario like that, they might send out a rejection notice to the book whose campaign drew only 20 nominations, but could decide to offer contracts to both books that drew 20,000 and 35,000 nominations, respectively.

I can't swear I'm right about that... but with no mention of any requirement of "winning" as a condition of acceptance, I think the "campaign" aspect is just a test to see if the manuscripts they like might actually draw readers.

So, the definition of a "successful campaign" is up in the air.

If this omission and my interpretation of it IS correct, I suspect there's not necessarily as much danger as there could be to an author who can "rig the numbers in their favor" is it may not affect other books with active campaigns that dramatically.

The job of each campaign MIGHT be to gauge demand and the extent of reader appeal, moreso than to "beat out" a group of other campaigns.

And that sort of makes sense.

For example, on American Idol, Carrie Underwood won her season, but Bo Bice eventually got a deal, too. His career has been smaller than hers, but Underwood is arguably the most successful artist ever to emerge from Idol, so that's hardly a fair comparison. Point is, he also got a deal.

The best example might be AI season 5.

The winner that year was Taylor Hicks (who won, but who also kinda fizzled after winning).

But look at all the "eliminated" stars who emerged from that season:

Kellie Pickler has had a great little country music career.

Chris Daughtry has done well for himself.

Katherine McPhee's built a solid stage and screen career off the exposure of that show/season.

So four people from the Top 6 went on to great careers, and the best three careers have emerged out of people Taylor Hicks "beat."

So maybe this Kindle Scout thing isn't so much head-to-head as it first appeared. Maybe it's more about using that 30-day campaign to prove your manuscript is connecting with readers.

Still, I kinda hope/wish the manuscript campaigns would be posted without author names, so that nominations emerged from the appeal of the story itself, not just from "Oh! This is my friend's book!" or "Oh! I know this author!" and other such x-factors.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Dolphin said:


> I'm not actually sure she's had anything picked up by an imprint. I think she was just saying that she'd accept if it was offered, more or less. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.


I have been. 



> Regardless, you don't get to that point without having gone through some sort of vetting process--a popularity contest, if only among the editorial staff--so it's not as though Kindle Scout is substantially different in that regard.


That is true, and that's basically what I'm trying to say here. Tidewater had a miserable flop of a launch and continues to sell at less than impressive rates (though reviews are very good.) It was pure, blind luck that made my book catch the eye of the acquisitions editor at Lake Union (though the cover probably had something to do with it).

She was the one who had to convince the rest of the editorial staff that Tidewater was worth taking a chance on. One way or another, in order to get a book into an APub imprint, you need a champion of some sort: an agent who has connections there, an editor on the staff who's found your book somehow-or-other (for most indie authors APub signs, they find then by watching who sells the best, and consistently), or some other person who pushes your book and convinces the entire editorial staff to take a chance.

The Scout program appears to serve the purpose my acquisitions editor served: to get the editorial staff to give serious consideration to a book. That's all it is, but if you want to get into APub, that "champion" can be a hard thing to find. I think it's rare now, and getting rarer, for them to stumble over a good indie book as they did with Tidewater. I'd encourage anybody who'd like to go hybrid to take the Scout opportunity very seriously. It's not a sure thing by any means, but it's much more proactive than just sitting around wondering if they'll ever discover you, which is what I was doing!


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

CraigInOregon said:


> Stuff and things.


Yeah, nobody automatically gets a contract because they cleared a nomination threshold, and nobody is ruled out because they _didn't_ clear a nomination threshold...or at least none of those thresholds are transparent. It's not something that's significant in its absence-they're explicit about the fact that their editorial staff has the final say. Nominations are just what moves you from the rejection pile into the full read pile.

As for making the process anonymous, I think authors generally need to get over any illusions that the author isn't a brand, or that the work can somehow speak for itself.

Readers like to like authors. They like to like humans in general, and you are probably a human, so be the kind they like. The kind who is interesting and relatable and who writes books they enjoy. There's nothing wrong with doing that. The system isn't rigged if a big name like A.G. Riddle swoops in and makes off with all of the nominations, because you, too can be a likable person who makes likable work. Focus on that.

People keep saying "popularity contest" like it's a bad thing. Who makes money at this by being unpopular?



ElHawk said:


> I have been.


Awesome, congrats! I think you're spot on about the importance of advocacy. First you have to learn how to do it on your own behalf, then you have to convince other people to do it for you. Pretty key to success in just about anything.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> Who makes money at this by being unpopular?


Orson Scott Card?


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

CraigInOregon said:


> Orson Scott Card?


That's...a fair point.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Heh heh heh... true.


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

Catherine Gardiner said:


> Some of the first books are up on the Scout website. I looked through them and if I had been allowed I would have voted for a couple.


I just did my three nominations. There really aren't that many submissions up yet. No more than three pages in each category.
As we've always stated, the covers are what really draw your attention. It looks like the authors with professional covers are getting the votes.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Very interesting! That Amazon employee's book that was used for the demo campaign is up. It's Hawt & Trending, in fact.

Does anybody see a way to tell how many nominations a title has? Looks like they're just showing us who's trending, which is curious. I think that's a good decision.


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## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

Can anyone explain to me how this is not gameable? I mean, I just nominated a book without even reading it. This will inspire fiverr campaigns and VA programs to go in and create fake amazon accounts to nominate books and more. Plus, it will encourage authors to spam social media begging for votes. The author with the biggest network wins. What am I missing?

Soon enough someone will release the "K Scout Voting Robot". Mark it down.


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## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

Yeah, I'm a little underwhelmed at the launch. Seems like there should be more to it. 
If all it takes is nominations then, yeah, it's gameable. Still watching with interest though.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

There are safeguards against gaming the system. They're just not obvious from the outside.

First, they're not obliged to publish a book just because it got a million votes. Everything comes down to their editorial discretion. My guess is that they're just going to use nominations to decide which books they bother to read, and then decide on their own which of those will work—nominations get you moved from the "discard" side of the slush pile to the "read" side. Since they don't show how many nominations each book has, we won't know the difference. They could publish a book with 100 nominations and a book with 1,000,000 nominations, and we'd never know which was which.

Second, they can track data on nominators. Each account can only nominate three books at once, so you'd have to keep creating new accounts indefinitely. If those accounts are brand new, they can tell. If they're all coming from the same IP, they can tell. If 10,000 shady nominations are made inside of an hour, then stop, they can tell. If nobody nominating a book seems to stay for more than a few seconds, they can tell.

They could choose not to track those things, but why wouldn't they? It's not in Amazon's interest to allow crappy signals to influence their decisions. Why would they want this system to do a poor job of representing genuine opinions of genuine readers? Why would a company with autistic levels of data obsession decide not to analyze the quality of nominations?

And before somebody says that they already do a poor job with fraudulent reviews and such, that's horsepuckies. The internet is a writhing, pustulent mass of botnets, shitlords, and male enhancement pills. I'm amazed by how little fraud, spam, and abuse seems to show up on Amazon. They spend a lot of money and resources on preventing it.

They very well may disqualify or penalize books that appear to be nominated through fraud. Even if they don't, the book still has to pass muster with the editorial team. You can't game those cats any more than you can game 47North (or any less—the real game is networking with earnest readers, editors, and tastemakers, just as it's always been).


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

I will be throwing a book in at the end of November. Jim is right, he with the biggest social media reach and/or list could probably sky rocket themselves up to the top of the nominations. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get up there when I pitch to them. But the truth of the matter is that most people with big lists and who are already USA Today or New York Times best sellers are probably going to have zero interest in Amazon Scout. Why? Because they'll make more money with their books if they don't go in. 50% royalties compared to 70% royalties on books priced over $2.99. It's pretty much a no-brainer not to deal with it if you already have a big enough list to support your sales. I think this program is a lot more geared towards those who haven't reached wide success and are looking to get a foot in the door and a jump start to their writing career. I'm just going to throw something in for [crap]s and giggles, and because my novels usually tank, so I'm curious what Amazon could actually do for one of them.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

jimkukral said:


> Can anyone explain to me how this is not gameable? I mean, I just nominated a book without even reading it. This will inspire fiverr campaigns and VA programs to go in and create fake amazon accounts to nominate books and more. Plus, it will encourage authors to spam social media begging for votes. The author with the biggest network wins. What am I missing?
> 
> Soon enough someone will release the "K Scout Voting Robot". Mark it down.


Jim, see my post up-thread.

From what I can surmise, it's "not gameable" because the contract language says nothing about a head-to-head competition or the need to "win."

The Kindle Scout editors don't necessarily post all books submitted, and there's no guarantee of a contract regardless of nominations or likes.

If one reads the site and terms, it becomes a bit clearer.

I could be mistaken, and time will tell how it plays out, but while the public IS involved, they don't even get final say.

Again, I refer you to my earlier posts up-thread, the ones I made after reading the site terms and contract language.

I think gaining a lot of nominations is helpful, sure; I don't think that alone secures you a contract.


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## FictionbyAngela (Nov 8, 2014)

Mine went live today! If only there was some way to see how many nominations you had. Oh well. I guess it's success or not will be a mystery for a month. I'd super appreciate it if you'd nominate me 

https://kindlescout.amazon.com/p/1HGSKH3R1LRX1


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

FictionbyAngela said:


> Mine went live today! If only there was some way to see how many nominations you had. Oh well. I guess it's success or not will be a mystery for a month. I'd super appreciate it if you'd nominate me
> 
> https://kindlescout.amazon.com/p/1HGSKH3R1LRX1


I did decide to nominate you, based on the strength of your opening sample. One of the better samples I've read there so far and the first to earn a nomination from me.


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## FictionbyAngela (Nov 8, 2014)

CraigInOregon said:


> I did decide to nominate you, based on the strength of your opening sample. One of the better samples I've read there so far and the first to earn a nomination from me.


(Sorry for the delay in response, I didn't see this until now)

Thank you so much!! 

https://kindlescout.amazon.com/p/1HGSKH3R1LRX1


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