# Time to Hang It Up



## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

This will be a long post. Fair warning.

*Disclaimer*: While I'd love to link my books and my bookstore, frankly, I can't trust one or both won't be vandalized by those on this board who will be delighted to hear I am considering leaving Amazon. Sorry.

Further, I am issuing advance notice I will not be responding to the usual instigators, so don't bother.

I've been publishing on Amazon now for five-and-a-half years. I've hit that button more than sixty times. I have romance, sci-fi, fantasy and non-fiction titles. I've probably either bought or personally made more than 100 book covers using stock art, commissioned art, professional fonts, you name it.

I'm making one more attempt to gain some kind of traction on Amazon before I hang it up. I'm going to try and set the first titles in my three series to permafree and boost visibility with occasional Freebooksy ads. At this point, my entire promotional strategy depends on whether Amazon allows me to do so.

Not sure if this will be of any value to anyone else, but these are my experiences.

With the exception of a tiny blip in mid-2011 and another in September of 2015, my sales have been uniformly zero or close to it. I get occasional glimmers of activity when I pour money into Bknights ads. No other kind of ad platform affects my Amazon sales at all. It's just throwing money into a hole. I can always give away hundreds of books as long as I spend money to do so, but the sales don't follow like they should. The books don't rank. We never get any traction. Month after month after month no matter what. We sell ten books here, fifteen books there and then back to zero until we pour more money into more ads. Even these meager results require us to remain perpetually exclusive with Amazon.

We get a few hundred KU page reads a month. Now, these reads always come in batches, which is circumstantial evidence people are reading all the way or most of the way through the book they borrow. The problem is there are only one or two people at a time doing so. This is circumstantial evidence that only one or two people at a time are able to find the books in the first place.

My books are technically fine. I have an English degree. I'm academically qualified to teach creative writing so I can state with confidence I have no grammar, vocabulary, spelling or punctuation problems. I'm also an experienced programmer, and I hand-code both mobi and (validated) epub versions of every book I publish, so it's not a formatting issue either.

I have more than 40 five-star reviews across all my titles, so the people who do read the books seem to enjoy them. I have my share of negative reviews as well. They rarely complain about story or technical issues. They mostly complain about length (I publish short works and bundle them).

The problem is really very simple: nobody has ever heard of my books and by the looks of things, they never will. Publishing on Amazon is the ultimate "solve a puzzle, win a prize" competition. Like most authors I flail from one scheme to the next, trying to find something, anything that will get my books in front of people who would likely enjoy them.

For example, I have enough books in my romance series to, through KDP Select, have at least one free book available every day forever. As long as you have at least 18 books, you can rotate them through their five free days for 90 days at a time, at which point the first book is eligible again. The only problem with that system is it ties the entire series to Amazon exclusively forever. It's kind of an ersatz permafree system. That was my major promotional strategy in 2014. It worked about as well as you'd expect, which is to say I gave away a half-dozen books a day on average and sold virtually nothing.

It should be noted that through this system, I have even stronger circumstantial evidence only about 4-6 people visit any book page on a given day unless I have a paid promotion going. They are always apparently happy to take a free book, but rarely willing to buy, which only proves I'm trying to sell entertainment on the Internet. Far better funded companies than mine (Disney) have been utterly obliterated attempting the same thing.

Now at this point I suppose I could make the whole series exclusive, fire up a Bknights promotion every day (which would be a logistical nightmare) and just pour free books into the market as fast as possible in an attempt to gain traction and/or mailing list subscribers. The only problem with that plan is the problem with every plan on Amazon: It makes my books worthless. It makes my marketing program look desperate (because it is desperate). And at the end of the month, it will cost $150 and likely return not even close to that amount in sales.

Over the last couple of months I've done some tinkering with Facebook ads. This was really the moment when I realized all was probably lost. I wrote a non-fiction book about a fictional character a couple years ago. There are a fair number of people on Facebook who have expressed an interest in that character. So I ran a campaign targeting that audience with a professionally designed ad featuring the book cover (one of my better ones) and some rather expensive art. I set a $60 limit and turned it loose.

The ads got about 100 clicks at a 1.15% click through rate, which is astronomically high by Internet standards (I know this because I wrote a book on it). The ad pointed at a landing page on my site which redirected to the book's page in my bookstore, where it was on sale for about 30% off. I spent just under $60 at roughly $0.34 a click.

See if you can guess how many books we sold?

Remember, this is a unique book about a fictional character with a worldwide audience well into the tens of millions pointed at an audience that, according to Facebook, is highly interested in that character. All the ingredients were in place, but no cookies came out of the oven. It was astonishing and inexplicable.

It should have worked, but we didn't get a single sale. Not one mailing list sign-up. Not one message. Throughout the campaign (more than 10,000 impressions) we got one page like. That was it.

Without putting too fine a point on it, that was devastating. At this point, it's not that I'm tired of the game. I'm just tired of losing. I have other businesses where I'm much more successful. I'm not perfect, by any stretch, but at least I win occasionally.

With Amazon, it's a never-ending siege of failure with no end in sight. I've written more than a million words of commercial fiction. But nobody can see my books, and I don't know how to fix it.

I'm perfectly willing to admit perhaps I just suck at marketing. I've been building games, books, apps, etc. for a long time and while I'm very good at one-to-one sales and very good at recruiting people into my company, when it comes to retail, everything comes crashing to Earth, usually painfully and expensively. I can build the products. I consider myself an above-average writer. I just can't market. Fair enough. Nobody can be expected to be good at everything.

Absent five-figures a month spent jackhammering my book titles at potential readers until they can't stand it any more, I honestly don't see any viable way to market e-books, at least on the web. To be fair, I've been on the Internet since the late Cretaceous, and I don't see any viable way to market anything on the web any more.

But then again, the whole point of Amazon KDP was we weren't supposed to need to be good at marketing. At least that's what we were told in the beginning.

When Amazon announced the self-publishing platform years ago, the deal was we would write the books and Amazon would market them for us. Even now, on the main KDP page it says "reach millions of readers." Except that's not what happens. Each book reaches a half-dozen people a day and will only move if it's free or if I'm pouring money into ads (or both). There's no millions of readers anywhere to be found. Or, there are millions of readers, but only if you solve the puzzle of the Amazon machine and get it to show your books to more than six people a day.

My books were supposed to be easier to find because they were so exhaustively categorized on Amazon. Except they aren't, really. There are only a couple dozen effective keywords. My fantasy series, for example, doesn't fit into Amazon at all. There's no combination of keywords that will get it into the right categories. This seems to be rather common with middle grade and YA books. It's strange, because you would think Amazon would be highly motivated to try and support the YA and middle grade market. They even have a special program called "Freetime" for it. We're not allowed to be a part of that, though. So my YA/middle grade fantasy has zero sales month after month after month and Amazon would apparently prefer it stay that way.

My military sci-fi series launched with five books in four weeks. It was the fastest selling, and because of the keyword situation ended up in about eight browse categories. I sold a few hundred copies across the series (now 16 books) and kept publishing for several months afterwards. The reviews were positive, if meager in numbers. And then it tailed off and back to zero, where it has remained ever since.

The romance series took a bit longer to get published (19 books, 14 months) and had about the same pattern. Few hundred sales over the year and back to zero.

Right now, if I do nothing, the sixty titles I have on Amazon (in four genres) will sell an average of seven copies a month forever, earning me about five dollars. In other words, the five-and-a-half years I've spent writing, advertising, making covers, formatting, programming a system to build mobis and epubs, etc. will have been a complete waste of time save for the couple thousand total books I've ever sold on Amazon.

One would think that I would have at least improved over those years. One would think that I would have developed some kind of readership, even if it's only a few dozen people. But I didn't. I don't know why, and I suspect I never will. I think I became a better writer, but being a good writer doesn't matter if nobody reads what I write.

Hereabouts, we've been treated to story after story about how all of a sudden, somebody's book started to sell. My personal favorites are the one about the author who launched cold (new pen name, new series, no history as a writer, no platform, no nothing) and made $1400 in the first month, then went on to sell a half-million books for millions in income.

We know better, because that story is no different than a story about how someone invented an anti-gravity machine. There is no reasonable mechanism by which an author with no experience or history can just walk into Amazon KDP and move $1400 worth of books in their first 30 days without some kind of artificial help. It's about as credible as an average athlete with no experience walking into training camp with the San Francisco Giants and hitting .340 against major league pitching. It can't be done, regardless of talent, strength, speed or agility. We already know this, but for some reason, we're willing to believe it because it gives us some small measure of hope, I suppose.

My other favorite is "I published my third book in the series and then WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I'm on a roller-coaster to moneyland and the party never ends!" It's like someone flipped a switch. It reminds me of the lottery.

People buy lottery tickets because they hear stories of the people who won. Lotteries are a cruel enterprise built on selling false hope for real money. On Amazon KDP, we don't buy a lottery ticket. We have to write a book every time we enter the contest, and like the lottery, we have absolutely no control over whether we win or not. All we can do, as we are repeatedly told, is write another book.

I've worked for content mills before. I got a smidgen of pay for a few hundred words. It's soul-destroying work, but at least it pays. Amazon reminds me of writing for a content mill, except I don't get paid. Even at a penny a word, I make more writing shitty articles about how to build a fence than I do writing 80,000-word books on Amazon.

I find it curious that my Amazon sales chart only responds when I'm sending paid traffic to my book pages. I'm well aware Amazon can tell when my traffic patterns change, and I'm sure they have their site set up to make my book slightly more visible if I buy Amazon a little traffic. What better way to build the world's largest e-commerce site than by off-loading your marketing expenses to your vendors?

The problem is, the math doesn't work in my favor. I feed a dollar into the machine and get 97 cents back. No amount of kicking, punching or shoving that machine is going to change those numbers. The machine was built by Amazon for Amazon in much the same way slot machines are built by the casino for the casino. The machine wants traffic so it can sell trampolines and luggage and televisions. That's why it advertises 112 other products on my book page and puts a price tag of $0.00 right next to my book cover. It's training customers to associate the word "worthless" with my book while simultaneously ringing the cash register on the stuff Amazon really wants to sell.

E-books are the candy dish next to the Amazon cash register. They're free and worth every penny! Take a handful while you're dropping $800 on a gas generator!

Meanwhile, Amazon takes up to 65% of my cover price. If I'm doing all the work (and paying for the ads), including the marketing, why do they get paid at all? What exactly is Amazon doing for their 65%? They certainly aren't marketing my books. I have five-and-a-half years of data to prove that.

It's kind of like the old question about the education budget. Here in California, we spend more than $10,000 a year per student on education. If we are very generous and say the teacher in a classroom of 30 students earns $150,000 a year, there is still $150,000 a year left over. Since schools are perpetually without books, field trips, supplies, librarians, buses, extracurricular activities, facility maintenance, clubs, athletic equipment, music equipment, science equipment, computers, tools, gymnasiums, playground equipment or air conditioning, one might wonder just where the hell the rest of the money went?

My main freelancing business earns me more in 36 hours than I make in a year on Amazon and doesn't take even a fraction of the time. I think I speak for quite a large number of authors who have had the same experiences. This platform has no future because it doesn't offer authors like myself any kind of a roadmap to success. What it proves instead is we can publish dozens of commercial-quality books on a web site with more than 2.4 billion unique visits a month and fail utterly to attract a dedicated readership of even ten people.

Amazon complains long and loud about the people who "game the system." To be fair, they have a point, because those people ruin the experience for their customers. But let's be fair to the authors while we're in such an egalitarian mood. Writers and publishers wouldn't have to game the system if legitimate success on Amazon weren't meted out with an eyedropper. Furthermore, what success we do see is as inexplicable as my failure to sell a single book using Facebook ads. We see books in the top 300 with shitty covers, bad writing, bad formatting and insane prices. We see books the author and publisher clearly put no time into. They sell by the dozens every day, and then we look at our own work, where some of us have invested thousands upon thousands upon THOUSANDS of man-hours, and see nothing but devastation, failure and wasted time.

Amazon is a marketplace that totally de-couples hard work, talent and craftsmanship from financial success. It really is no different than the modern job market for the 20-somethings. They are told they need marketable skills, only to find themselves laid off, fired or passed over after they invest sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars obtaining them. Such things breed cynicism and gloom.

At this point, I have every reason to believe if I simply wrote a check for $300 and printed 100 copies of my middle grade fantasy adventure, put a bookmark with a URL to my mailing list in each one and simply handed them one copy at a time to parents at Starbucks, I'd probably get more readers and mailing list signups in a month than I've ever had or ever will get from Amazon. I'd be spending three bucks a "click" but at least I'd be giving a real book to real people instead of wondering why 100 people clicked on an ad and then totally ignored it, or why 334 people downloaded a free copy of a five-star rated book and then ignored every other book in the series.

This is all assuming of course all those downloads and ad clicks were real people. At this point I have no evidence to prove they were.

According to the charts, there are a couple hundred successful authors on Amazon. The rest, like myself, sell nothing. Ultimately, all Amazon has accomplished is to recreate the traditional publishing industry where, instead of outright rejection, the un-anointed authors have the false hope of future success perpetually dangled in front of them by a machine: success they will never achieve, no matter how many books they write.

Like I said, I'm going to give it one more try with the permafree strategy. If that doesn't work, I'm taking my e-books down from Amazon for good and investing my efforts elsewhere. I could read my books aloud into a webcam for YouTube and probably make more money on ads at this point.

I hope my experiences will be helpful to others.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Well, you have certainly spent a lot of time clearing yourself of any liability for not reaching your goals.

One thing that stuck out was that you said, people are willing to read your free book but not willing to buy...that should be setting off alarm bells for you. Because many other authors make tons of money on people buying books 2-3 and guess what, lots of them don't pay for ANY ads.

So, yeah, pack it up, if you feel you must. There is no place for that kind of attitude in business.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Well, you have certainly spent a lot of time clearing yourself of any liability for not reaching your goals.


I have done no such thing. I take full responsibility for choosing to publish my books on a platform where they will apparently remain invisible forever.



> people are willing to read your free book but not willing to buy.


More accurately, they're willing to download the book. I have no evidence those books are being read.



> Because many other authors make tons of money on people buying books 2-3 and guess what, lots of them don't pay for ANY ads.


According to the ranking charts on Amazon, there are about 200 such authors.



> There is no place for that kind of attitude in business.


A strange accusation to level at someone who invested five years and wrote over a million words.


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## C. A. Mitchell (Aug 6, 2015)

Have you considered using single spacing instead of double? Single is the norm now, and double might put people off.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2016)

It sounds like you've had it up to here with the self-publishing business. Walk away and keep your sanity.

Personally, I treat it as a hobby and after the first few months, I only spent money on it from what I earned. My profits are modest, but I enjoy writing and am happy that some people seem to enjoy my books. When it is no longer fun, I'll quit, too.

Take care and best of luck.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

justphil said:


> They mostly complain about length (I publish short works and bundle them).


Phil, this is it, right here. Not many readers are looking for short works.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Have you considered using single spacing instead of double?


I do use single spacing.



> Not many readers are looking for short works.


They don't buy the bundles either. If people are actively avoiding the books because they are episodic, that's one thing, but they can get more for less with the bundles and those sell worse than the shorter books. You might be right, but Amazon demands a new material every 30-90 days, and I can't write 110,000 words at an acceptable quality level sustainably on that schedule.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. With 60+ books where none are selling, there must be enough material to put your finger on what is at fault, if you are open to looking at your work and path with a critical eye. Having an academic career and technically correct grammar is awesome, but what about story and voice?

And yes, you can launch one book as a complete unknown and move 1k+ in your first month. I did. Did I use some promo? Yes, small sites that took new releases with no reviews (like BKnights) which got me that first leg up. Then people started buying. There are many authors here who do well right from the first month, it's knowing your market, the tropes, and bringing a unique voice to the story.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Are you quitting altogether or are you just quitting Amazon and going wide? Did I miss that in your post?


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## mmflores (Jan 3, 2016)

justphil said:


> This will be a long post. Fair warning.
> 
> *Disclaimer*: While I'd love to link my books and my bookstore, frankly, I can't trust one or both won't be vandalized by those on this board who will be delighted to hear I am considering leaving Amazon. Sorry.
> 
> ...


Phil, thanks so much for sharing your experience so honestly. I think it's human nature to want to share one's own success stories--it's not nearly as exciting to tell the world about how your book was released to crickets. On Kboards and podcasts you'll mostly hear from people having great success, not the other side of self-publishing. I definitely think it's possible to find success as as Self-Pub author, but like in any field, it's not a guarantee by any means.

As someone above mentioned, I do think that trying full-length books might have made a difference, but honestly if you're feeling exhausted of the whole thing, I don't blame you at all for walking away. I think as a culture we attach a lot of Romanticism to pursuing creative things/athletic things you know, that kind of exciting jobs. But if something is giving you more stress than joy you either have to reevaluate how you're approaching it or just walk away altogether. Sometimes we get so attached to one single aspect of life that we think without we can't possibly be happy. We can. It's not the end of the world. Perhaps you'll walk away and after a few months or years you'll come back refreshed. Or you might not. Either way best of luck!


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> but what about story and voice?


No reader has ever complained about my stories or voice. Like all authors, I have the occasional "writes like a third grader" review, but that's Internet background noise, not serious critique.

Then again, so few people have apparently read my books that I can't credibly claim a trend one way or the other. If someone is willing to step up and say "you suck as a writer and here's why" and can back it up with some level of academic credibility, then I am more than willing to put down my pen and never write another word. That hasn't happened yet. On the contrary, I've had many reviews filled with high praise.

I have a university degree with a creative writing emphasis. I've written a million words. If my writing is that bad after all that, then I'm afraid there isn't much that can be done.



> Are you quitting altogether or are you just quitting Amazon and going wide? Did I miss that in your post?


I'd rather not quit altogether. I have my own shop and other authors to work alongside. I just don't see how publishing on Amazon helps.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

justphil said:


> At this point, I have every reason to believe if I simply wrote a check for $300 and printed 100 copies of my middle grade fantasy adventure, put a bookmark with a URL to my mailing list in each one and simply handed them one copy at a time to parents at Starbucks, I'd probably get more readers and mailing list signups in a month than I've ever had or ever will get from Amazon. I'd be spending three bucks a "click" but at least I'd be giving a real book to real people instead of wondering why 100 people clicked on an ad and then totally ignored it, or why 334 people downloaded a free copy of a five-star rated book and then ignored every other book in the series.


Um, yeah, that would probably be quite a good idea, actually.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Um, yeah, that would probably be quite a good idea, actually.


I think there's something to be said for the real world.


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## stacia_s (Jul 15, 2015)

You do sound really frustrated, although I can't decide if it's with yourself or everyone else. The fact of the matter is that whatever you doing right now isn't working for you. Only you can decide if it's worth it to keep trying or to give it up. I do think that with so many books published it's not just a matter of Amazon sucks. Like is mentioned above, short stories have a much smaller market but it is totally possible for someone to make 1k in their first month with no platform. People aren't buying _your_ books for a reason, because they are buying books. It's impossible for anyone to say what your problems might be. If you just needed to vent, go for it I guess.


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## Chandra (Jul 26, 2016)

Thanks for sharing your story with honesty and lucidity. It looks as though you did everything that how-to books advise the self-pub author to do -- you wrote prolifically, you promoted aggressively, and you approached your work with dedication and professionalism. One can't blame you for feeling let-down.

But IMO the fault doesn't lie with Amazon in particular or even with self-publishing in general. It's just extremely hard to find readers these days when it seems as though everyone writes and no one reads! 

Don't give up. Judging by your post alone, you're an excellent writer with a strong voice and sense of humor. Keep writing, but perhaps do it at a slower pace in your spare time. That will take the pressure off you to succeed, and you might enjoy the process more.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I'm still confused how this is Amazon's fault.


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

alawston said:


> Um, yeah, that would probably be quite a good idea, actually.


Beat me to it.


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## noirhvy (Dec 29, 2015)

Life is tough. A hockey goalie said how would like a job where when you make a mistake 40,000 people jump to their feet and boo?
You have to offer what people want. Gilligan's Island or A Long Day's Journey Into Night or Debbie Does Dallas. There's no guarantee.
How many painting did Van Gogh sell in his lifetime?
Either take the guff or drop out.


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

It is really difficult to offer advice without seeing a cover, reading a blurb, or being able to look at what's inside. OTOH, I TOTALLY understand wanting to stay anonymous as more than one person posting on these boards has gone on to have their books suddenly inundated with single star reviews after sharing a thread that not everyone agreed with. 

Based on what you are saying, honestly I think length is probably your biggest issue. You bring up the fact that you bundle. Okay. Yes. Short works, publishing quickly and then bundled were the Amazon gravy train at one time, from what I hear. They aren't anymore and haven't been for awhile. Genre is always a factor, and I have no idea exactly how short your works are, but you say over a million written words and 60+ published stories? If I do the math that is an average of 16,000 words per "book". those are short stories. VERY short. I published a 36k word prequel novella earlier this year, the start of a series. Four months later I published a 100k word novel. The novel sells and has KU borrows 6 times the amount of the novella, right out of the gate. And I get people who read the novel and then go back and buy the novella because book 2 in the series isn't out yet. 

That whole "publish every 30-90 days" thing or die is rubbish. Does it mean you will gain traction faster? Maybe. It can. If you can pull it off and write quality books with the right market tropes and get them out on that schedule. But nothing is a guarantee, and I've seen plenty of authors succeed who don't publish that quickly. Clearly, the markets you are targeting would prefer something different from what you have been doing. Why not try writing something longer, and see what happens? What do you have to lose at this point?


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

justphil said:


> No reader has ever complained about my stories or voice.


60+ books and zero sales is compelling evidence that there is a problem (and it has nothing to do with advertising) it's just whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

From reading your posts it appears you just want to vent about lack of sales. I totally get that. But if you're not prepared to dig deep and change, then perhaps it is best you walk away. If you keep doing the same thing, you are going to get the same result - zero.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> I'm still confused how this is Amazon's fault.


It may not be Amazon's fault. The results are the same, however. My books are invisible.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

We all gotta do what we gotta do.  It's the nature of running a small business. 

Good luck in whatever path you decide.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Why not try writing something longer, and see what happens?


That's an option. My #3 best-seller all-time is 79,000 words. I suppose if people are that averse to short works it won't do any good to bundle them. That would explain the larger failure of the bundles over the shorter works. It's something to consider.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Phil, I feel for you. I really do. It must be soul-destroying to write and publish so much work and have nothing to show for it. This is a cruel business at times and what is good is not always what sells and what sells is not always good. 

I would be willing to look more closely at your books -- whether romance or SFF -- and offer my advice and help if you would be willing. I write romance and do so successfully, and I read SFF and do so successfully.  PM me if you are interested and I will do what I can. I will be gentle but honest. I have been a member of several workshops where I was a critter of other people's works and I have standards and ethics. I have helped other authors before and will do it again. Amazon algorithms reward sales and so getting those sales is really what counts. Amazon algorithms reward new work and velocity so getting new works out there and doing so quickly is really what counts.

In the end, you may have great stories, but if Amazon readers aren't seeing them and if Amazon isn't seeing sales, you have to be in charge of getting your books in front of Amazon readers and visible to Amazon algorithms.

Consider my offer. I helped an author on this board go from selling no books in months to selling $1200 - $1500 a month for several months running using Facebook ads, new covers, new blurbs and keywords.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Middle Grade is a hard sell in ebook. A very hard sell. You're idea of hand selling paper copies is actually a very good one. There are children and MG authors here who do just that at different events. 

I'm in the middle of writing a cookbook with my cousin who is a chef. I told him he can expect little to no sales in ebook and cookbooks in general have a lot of competition. But he does festivals like fish festivals and Italian festivals plus the restaurant where he works does events like wine tastings. He can also sell the books there. He'll probably do decently at hand-selling.

Suggestion, drop out of Select, not Amazon and go wide. Don't miss out on a single sale.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> It may not be Amazon's fault. The results are the same, however. My books are invisible.


Then change what you're doing. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I'm willing to bet people here could peg the problem in fewer than five minutes with links, but it's not our business if you don't want to share the links. That's your business.
In truth, shorts are an extremely tough sell. Even when you group them together, a lot of people don't like them. Longer works are easier to market and they have a much longer shelf life. Period.
As for marketing, I don't think you've tried any decent marketing. I can't get Facebook ads to work for me either. I don't do them. That doesn't mean Amazon ads don't work for me. That doesn't mean ENT, Robin Reads, OHFB and BookBub don't work for me. Are you honestly telling me you paid for those advertisers and got zero sales? That's what your post seems to suggest. If so, that's not what other people find. That would suggest a problem with your work.
With sixty titles an no sell-through to your name, the fault isn't Amazon's to bear. Something is happening with your work that doesn't make people want to read more. You have to deal with that. That's the only way to move forward. If you're unwilling to change to move forward, then it's probably best to walk away.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

justphil said:


> No reader has ever complained about my stories or voice. Like all authors, I have the occasional "writes like a third grader" review, but that's Internet background noise, not serious critique.
> 
> Then again, so few people have apparently read my books that I can't credibly claim a trend one way or the other. *If someone is willing to step up and say "you suck as a writer and here's why" and can back it up with some level of academic credibility, then I am more than willing to put down my pen and never write another word. * That hasn't happened yet. On the contrary, I've had many reviews filled with high praise.
> 
> ...


This is the problem right there. Based on what you wrote, you're not willing to listen to what READERS have to say. Readers don't need to have "academic reasons" for liking or disliking a book.

If you really want to know what the problem is, you will have to ask for honest opinions from authors who are also readers. I suspect the problem is the story is not compelling enough for the masses.

With two novellas, the first of which was permafree, I made money the first month I published. I didn't do any active promotions for a whole year, and I still sold many books.

I'm a slow writer and I only write novella length books. I'm still making money and I get sell through whenever I do a promotion.

If you're writing romance and you have a decent sized catalog, you should be seeing sell through.
Again, if you want specific advice, you will have to provide a link.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

Sorry, maybe I missed this.  Do you have a link to the amazon page?  I'm curious to see your SF.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Are you honestly telling me you paid for those advertisers and got zero sales?


I'm barred from using those advertising channels because I don't have enough reviews, most don't accept shorter works and more than a few are hand-picked.

It could very well be the market doesn't want shorter works or bundles, which means I have to make a choice between word count and the cliffs. I can do 1500 words of acceptable quality work an hour. I could probably do a 100k novel every 30 days. If that would sell better then it would be worth a try.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

dianapersaud said:


> Based on what you wrote, you're not willing to listen to what READERS have to say. Readers don't need to have "academic reasons" for liking or disliking a book.


This ^ +1
You can't help someone who is deaf to hearing there is a problem and wants to cling to the fact they have academic qualifications and therefore there is nothing technically wrong with their writing. People like to slam FSOG for poor technical ability but completely miss what* did *make it a best seller. Story and voice will always trump grammatical ability.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> you're not willing to listen to what READERS have to say.


Readers aren't telling me my books are bad. When they complain (and they really don't very often - I think I have a grand total of a half dozen truly negative reviews) they aren't complaining about story or voice or tone or characters or anything technical. The only recurring complaint (which is to say twice) has been about length, which I'm prepared to address if that will solve the problem.


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## Allyson J. (Nov 26, 2014)

justphil said:


> I'm barred from using those advertising channels because I don't have enough reviews, most don't accept shorter works and more than a few are hand-picked.
> 
> It could very well be the market doesn't want shorter works or bundles, which means I have to make a choice between word count and the cliffs. I can do 1500 words of acceptable quality work an hour. I could probably do a 100k novel every 30 days. If that would sell better then it would be worth a try.


Write longer and risk the cliffs. Write series. Go permafree. Advertise as often as possible (at least one 'heavy hitter' / month). Mailing List. 
That's the usual advice on these boards, but it is solid advice. Give that a try and see. Best of luck!


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Phil, I'm sorry you're having such a frustrating time. I've been there. After I released by first book (then the second and third) to crickets, I was tearing my hair out wondering what I was doing wrong. I thought I was doing everything right-- series, good covers, permafree first book--but now that I know more, I can see I was doing a lot of things wrong. I wasn't writing marketable books, so no matter how much marketing I did, I wasn't getting impressive results.

Free runs don't do much for me, unless I have a BookBub and give away 30k+ copies, and I make five-figures a month. Marketing and publishing is all guess and check. You have to try different things to see what works. You might have a problem with content, you might have a problem with branding/covers, you might have a problem with advertising. I suggest you take Sela up on her offer to point out where you can improve before you think about changing marketing strategies.

If you want to quit, by all means, do it. But giving away a handful of free copies every day and getting 50 reviews across dozens of books means you don't have enough visibility to really say whether or not your books will stick. Visibility, especially on Amazon, is always a challenge, but that's a part of being an indie author. If you're not up to tackling that challenge, you are right to step down.


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## DC Swain (Feb 24, 2013)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Middle Grade is a hard sell in ebook. A very hard sell. You're idea of hand selling paper copies is actually a very good one. There are children and MG authors here who do just that at different events.


Middle Grade is an exceptionally hard sell, harder than picture books in my experience. We do have the advantage that advertising is usually cheaper though (especially for BookBub) than the more popular genres.

Without seeing a sample of your writing, genre combined with length seem to be your biggest problems. Consider going wide (Don't quit Amazon altogether) and make use of permafree for your first in series. If you contact KDP directly they will price match usually within 48 hours. At the back of your permafree link to your other books and your mail list sign up. Then any advertising you do, it should be for your permafree.

Do a few ebook giveaways on LibraryThing (free) to help generate reviews and make the use of offers like Sela up thread to get an independent assessment of your writing.

But before you do any of that, take a break from it all. Give it 6 months off. A bit of clarity in your head will go a long way.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

justphil said:


> Readers aren't telling me my books are bad. When they complain (and they really don't very often - I think I have a grand total of a half dozen truly negative reviews) they aren't complaining about story or voice or tone or characters or anything technical. The only recurring complaint (which is to say twice) has been about length, which I'm prepared to address if that will solve the problem.


They're not leaving a review that says "burn this book!" or whatever. *They're simply not buying the rest. THAT says there is something they don't like about the one they did read.* Or perhaps they never finished reading it and don't bother leaving a review.

I'm a voracious reader. It never occurred to me to leave a review until I was an author and realized how important it was for marketing purposes.


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## miaarden (Jun 7, 2016)

I'd consider myself a pretty average-level consumer of ebooks. I have never bought a book of short stories, and when I do pick one up in a brick-and-mortar store, I immediately put it back down. I know that short stories are often seen as a way to hone craft in academic creative writing, so I think I got turned off to them because they tend to be too "literary." I want to have fun when I read. Of course, I don't know if your books are "fun" or not, but I do think that the length could be causing a problem. Shame, because I'm sure some of your stories are quite good!


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## lincolnjcole (Mar 15, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I'm still confused how this is Amazon's fault.


Same. Nowhere does Amazon say using KDP means they will promote your book for you or get sales.


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## Lysandra_Lorde (Mar 6, 2016)

justphil said:


> I can do 1500 words of acceptable quality work an hour. I could probably do a 100k novel every 30 days. If that would sell better then it would be worth a try.


Oh my GOD, dude, why didn't you think to ask people this question 5 years ago? That's a very reasonable rate, even despite the crazyness that other authors can pump stuff out at. Please, for your own sanity and publishing and money making sake. Try longer works. Try longer works and try promo sites that don't care about review numbers, they do exist - there's not too many, but they exist.


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

I definitely think it's the length of your work that causes you problems. If you can actually produce 1500 words an hour, you are writing at lightning speed. Truly. I can often not manage 1500 words in a day, yet my experience with publishing has been vastly different from what you described here. If you could produce a 110k book in a month, you should. Or every other month. Or four in a year. Or books that are at least 50k long. The cliffs are not what is causing you trouble. You can't go off a cliff if you never climb the hill to begin with. 

Very few readers like short stories, even in bundles. It's like you're producing rutabaga smoothies. They might be made with the very best farm-fresh organic ingredients, but your market is naturally limited. If you want to sell smoothies, you should probably try offering strawberry banana. If you want to sell writing, try a full length novel in a popular genre and see how it goes, but only if you can face the prospect of it not going well. If you've reached the end of your rope, it may not be worth it right now.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

So have you done any cross promotions with other authors or talked to the SF or romance people to see about working together?

lots of inexpensive/free opportunity there.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> rutabaga smoothies


And we have a company name! 



> So have you done any cross promotions with other authors or talked to the SF or romance people to see about working together?


I have. I've done a couple of cross-promotions before, and if I do a longer work I'm sure it would be in a genre that would lend itself to other bundles. Since my military sci-fi books did the best out of the gate that would seem to be the best place to start.


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

justphil said:


> Readers aren't telling me my books are bad. When they complain (and they really don't very often - I think I have a grand total of a half dozen truly negative reviews) they aren't complaining about story or voice or tone or characters or anything technical. The only recurring complaint (which is to say twice) has been about length, which I'm prepared to address if that will solve the problem.


I totally hear your frustration - and can understand how it would build up after investing the time and effort into writing and publishing 60 or more titles. I've only got three books out, and I have my frustrated days - it's a tough business, but I hope you'll do some diagnostics and adjustments before pulling the plug.

While I was working on my first full novel, I wrote and released a novelette length story (10k) that I hoped would be a lead into my series. Like you, I found it easy to give away, but couldn't seem to generate sales and even when I gave hundreds of free copies away, I didn't see it flow through to the novel when I released it. Also like you, the reviews I got were quite good - mostly 5 star with some 4. So what gives, right?

Ultimately, I decided that it's like many others have said, shorts are a tough sell and I don't think mine drew the readers in enough to have them become fans that would seek out my other books. There's just not enough there with a short to really hook most readers. I realized the fact that my reviews were good was a plus (at least people found it somewhat entertaining), but for the handful that left good reviews, there were hundreds who probably thought "meh!" and moved on. The absence of bad reviews didn't mean I had done my job successfully.

I took a step back and ended up expanding that 10k story to around 40+k - now it qualifies for promo sites, and the story seems to be long and engaging enough to hook more readers. I saw the effect in terms of the bump in sales/reads of the following two books right away. But it's also been a ton of trial and error with covers, blurbs, categories, keywords, and on and on. Same with Facebook ads. You mention spending $60 and getting no return...been there, done that - got a couple of t-shirts! But same thing, I experimented with graphics, headlines, copy, targets until my CTR improved and I actually started seeing the bump in sales and page reads.

I was watching Project Runway last night when one of the contestants gave up and walked off the show. Michael Kors said, "Fashion isn't for sissies" .... I had to laugh, because I couldn't have said it better about being an author.  Others far more successful than me have offered their help, and I hope you'll take them up on it. Again, good reviews indicate that you've got a few important pieces of the puzzle in the right place (and some people never figure those out) ... but now, IMHO, it's time to step back from publishing more new titles and spend time finding the puzzle pieces that are missing for what you've done so far. Once you have those in place, I think the path forward becomes a lot clearer.

Best of luck with whatever you decide!


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Sela said:


> I would be willing to look more closely at your books -- whether romance or SFF -- and offer my advice and help if you would be willing. I write romance and do so successfully, and I read SFF and do so successfully.  PM me if you are interested and I will do what I can. I will be gentle but honest. I have been a member of several workshops where I was a critter of other people's works and I have standards and ethics. I have helped other authors before and will do it again.


I hope you take Sela up on her offer, and I'd like to add my voice to hers as well. I'd be happy to read and see what kind of impression your books make on me as a reader and then report that back to you - honestly but kindly. If the impression is favorable, I'm also glad to write a review which, if nothing else, might help towards getting picked up for some of the promos. And if the impression is not favorable I promise to keep my trap shut. (c: I'm not an author so I won't be able to give you the kind of feedback Sela offers but I am someone who buys a LOT of books and is always delighted when I find an author who's got several releases out, because that means I can work my way through their material and have my bedtime reading covered for the next month or two. (Also, as a non-author, you can be assured I have no motivation to sabotage you in any way.)

About the shorts: 
I love short stories. I eat them up like candy. LOVE them. I have one entire full-size bookshelf full of JUST short story collections, and that's not even counting the collections by "Named Authors" - my favorites like Neil Gaiman, Peter S. Beagle, China Mieville - who have also put out SS collections. (I would twitch uncontrollably if I tried to put those collections on the short-story bookshelf instead of with the other works by their authors, where they belong.) Nothing makes me quite as happy as finding a new anthology, or finding that one of my favorite authors has released a SS collection.

My mother, who taught me to love books the way I do and is also always, always, always on the hunt for a New Author, would not buy a book of short stories if her life depended on it. Here's a story for you:

She stopped by my house on the way to the hospital one morning: My dad was having surgery that day and she'd forgotten her Kindle at home. My house was on her way, so she dropped in to grab something to read. I wasn't home, so she went to the nearest bookshelf, picked up three nice, thick juicy books - figuring one of the three was sure to be a winner - and left. She called me that evening, FURIOUS - at ME, for some reason  - because all three of the books were short story anthologies/collections and she hadn't realized it until she'd gotten to the hospital. She'd been stuck there, she told me, for SEVEN HOURS with NOTHING TO READ.

Seven hours and she wouldn't even TRY the short stories. And one of the books was Ray Bradbury - it's not like these were off-the-wall weird things like some of what I enjoy.

(That weekend, I moved my short-story bookshelf from the den into the bedroom.)

I honestly don't understand it, but some people _*Just. Don't. Like. Short. Stories.*_ (Well, I kind of understand it - I'm not crazy about novellas, myself. I want less than 30 pages or more than 250, not much in between.) And it doesn't matter if they're bundled into collections - they're just *not* gonna pick them up. So length may be a bigger factor than you're allowing for - if I didn't know my mother personally, I'd have a hard time believing anyone could ever honestly be THAT opposed to short stories.

Whatever you do, I wish you luck. It seems like a sad ending to your story, though, if you give up after working so hard for so long.

PM or email me if you want reader feedback - and if you've got some freebies or cheapies I can get my mom to read some and give you her feedback too... just as long as they're not short stories. (c;


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

Links to work or pm links.  
Anything else at this point is just touchy feely.  That drives me nuts.  I like to see and understand what is going on.  Then I try to fix.  I'm a guy....


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## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

Thank you for sharing you story. Good luck with future endeavors.


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

Right off the top, as other have said, I'd point to the length of your stories. A large portion of readers dislike short stories. Then there's also the question of whether you write what people want to read. That's another nut in this basket, and it's not all that easy to crack. 

Ultimately, it's up to you what to do. If you want help, post links here. If not, well.... best of luck to you. I hope you find a place where you're happy and sales are robust.


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## C. A. Mitchell (Aug 6, 2015)

justphil said:


> I do use single spacing.


Ah, sorry. I just thought you might use it in books because you do in posts. (To clarify, I mean spacing between sentences, not lines. Apologies if it's called something else.)


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## S.L. (Jun 6, 2016)

I think when you hear people who come out of nowhere and make a living wage with their first work, it's a novel, not a short story.  The market for short stories is very small, and even if you do gain a large following, there will not be a huge benefit from being in KU.  You could try putting them in an anthology, raising the price to $2.99 and seeing what happens then.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2016)

I agree with the OP. I think you made a great argument. Amazon is just another gatekeeper getting rich off the toils of others while they make bank. Amazon is a lucrative business that's found a great way to enrich itself, much like Goodwill and Salvation Army Thrift stores--drop off your free stuff so we can turn around and sell it right back to you. And self-publishing or any kind of publishing these days, are akin to the state lottery system which only a lucky few win--enough to keep the rest of the eager pack hoping. 

I'll probably write the four or five books that are dying to get out of me and then move on instead of continuing to feed the hungry machine.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

justphil, here's what I'd do if I were in your shoes...

Step #1: take Sela up on her offer. Not tomorrow. Tonight.

Step #2: do everything Sela recommends. Don't deviate.

Step #3: review your progress after six months.


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

If you're writing episodic and finding readers don't like that, have you tried bunging a set of stories together to make one big novel? Several big novels using your various series? Rebrand them, use a new pen name (or names if the genres are vastly different). 

If you have such low sales it's unlikely you'll have much cross over. 

Then you can try ENT, FKBT, etc with their "new release" categories. Or if you plan ahead try the genrecrave launch package - it's pricy but it gets reviews off the bat and gives you some sales promotions.

So a couple of options if you want to keep trying for a while. 

The Sela option is great though. If you publish romance, Sela's offer is kind of the indie publishing equivalent of Spielberg offering to look over the plan for that movie you're about to shoot.


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

First, Amazon would never do anything to prevent a skilled author from selling their books. That's how they make money. They sell stuff for a tiny profit and they do it on a massive scale. That said, they also don't want to spend the time/money to help individual product suppliers--their paradigm demands that the producers/suppliers sink or swim on their own. But why on earth would you assume that it's something that Amazon is doing to you? What possible purpose would it serve for Amazon to do things that would prevent them from earning money?

Your five star reviews are undoubtedly buying into your catalog--but as you've said, you only have a few dozen across 60 published works. That about accounts for your sales rate. Then there are the bad reviews...which often don't mean much either way. But in-between those two reader-categories are all the rest of your sales. And those, regardless of your academic qualification, are not being hooked by your work, so they're not buying more of your catalog. It's one and done for them. Part of that is undoubtedly the length of the stories, but most of it must be reader-engagement. It's not capturing readers for some reason. You can't count on bad reviews to tell you what you're doing wrong--unless you're doing something abysmal which it doesn't sound like you are. But if you're producing work that's just OK, you won't get a bad review, but you also won't make another follow-up sale.

Since you already have dozens of short works, you might consider joining an online critique group like www.scribophile.com . Get some of your work looked at by some of your author peers. They'll be more critical of your work than a general reader would, and if you work at it and start producing work that someone who's looking with a harsh eye can like, your Amazon readers will also like it. Short works are easy to get crits for, and you'll get some good analysis of story arc and structure, character and voice.

You can also try reading a book like Chris Fox's Write to Market, it's a bit fluffy, but it does have some specific ways to analyze the Amazon sales rankings to determine genre markets which are under-served by authors. Then pick an under-served genre that interests you and write a series of 70k+ works and get those out there.

Finally, if you really do think your writing is great, why don't you go the traditional publishing route at least to get name visibility. Again, you probably won't be able to sell short works to one of the Big Five. But those short stories should be salable, if they're good, to anthologies and magazines. And they could help you gain visibility. It certainly won't hurt more than giving up. If you're producing great middle school level short work, then magazines like Cricket and Spider will eat it up. And they'll pay you more than what you're earning right now on Amazon.

Good luck with whatever you decide is best for you!


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

You've received some great advice. I don't think there's much anyone can add. Just remember this -- no one is guaranteed success at anything. You can do everything "right" and still not have lightning strike. That's the chaotic and unfair nature of things. Good luck I hope you find what  you're looking for.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

justphil said:


> Readers aren't telling me my books are bad. When they complain (and they really don't very often - I think I have a grand total of a half dozen truly negative reviews) they aren't complaining about story or voice or tone or characters or anything technical. The only recurring complaint (which is to say twice) has been about length, which I'm prepared to address if that will solve the problem.


Don't just listen to what readers say, look at what they do. I decided to produce a serial last year, five episodes (18K words each), to be bundled up into a single omnibus version. It was carefully crafted for that format with good editing, good covers, good blurbs. Previous to that, I had four novels out that weren't selling and the reason that I chose the format was because of the dreaded 30day cliffs and my slow writing compared to others. I sent review copies of the first part to 100 readers in the genre, got about 11 reviews, review average above 4 stars, many mentioning that they were dying to read part 2. I released part 2, part 3 etc. 30 days apart. I didn't see any cliffs because I had no sales to fall off a cliff. Sales of all parts flatlined--those who said they loved part 1 didn't end up picking up part 2 which I made free. When I had all five out, and the omnibus packaged up, I perma-freed part 1 and part 2 and advertised it on one of the better ad sites, got 1000 downloads of part 1 in a day, and got a tail of sales before they gradually decreased away. Sell-through was abysmal. Pretty sure I've now figured out the problem ( an unlikable protag who isn't either proactive or competent in the first few parts). I've since unpublished it.

Readers say they hate cliffhangers, then buy the next book in droves. Readers give out stink about typos, then buy terribly edited and formatted books because the story keeps them reading all night. Whether they buy or don't buy is what matters for success, not what they say.

I finished a trilogy this year, got new covers, new blurbs, perma-freed book1, and I advertised it heavily. I got enough sell-through to break even, plus maybe a hundred or two hundred bucks over 6 months, nothing compared to what was invested in it. I had to finish it and move on, but I knew not to expect much (despite 37 reviews at review average of 4.3 on book 1) because sell-through had always been below-average.

I understand the pain and frustration of putting so much in and getting nothing back in return. I've been there. But I think I'm turning a corner.

I've started two new series, trying to nail the blurb/cover/concept/book, and I advertised enough to jolt book 1 up the rankings at start. A cliff can't happen unless there are sales to begin with. Book 2 won't boost book 1 unless there are fans who are buying book 2 on release week. I'm getting regular sales/borrows for the first time, however I won't truly know whether either has been successful until I release further books and begin to see a good sell-through.

I documented my plan: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,240344.html and I'm about to start talking about the release of book 1 of the second series in that thread. The gaps between releases will be far from the 30 day ideal, but most important thing is to get a seed of a readership, and for that readership to want to buy the next in the series. I'll tailor the length of the series based on what I see in terms of sell-through/stickability.

Anyway, at the end of last year, I decided I either had to give up, or really focus on getting everything right. I'm still here!


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## Marina Finlayson (May 2, 2014)

SerenityEditing said:


> She'd been stuck there, she told me, for SEVEN HOURS with NOTHING TO READ.
> 
> Seven hours and she wouldn't even TRY the short stories. And one of the books was Ray Bradbury - it's not like these were off-the-wall weird things like some of what I enjoy.


Wow. That's an amazing story! I never realised some people's reaction to short stories was that extreme.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

justphil said:


> And we have a company name!
> 
> I have. I've done a couple of cross-promotions before, and if I do a longer work I'm sure it would be in a genre that would lend itself to other bundles. *Since my military sci-fi books did the best out of the gate that would seem to be the best place to start.*


This is a good idea, and if you seem some success, stick with that genre. It can take time to build a readership.


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## inconsequential (May 4, 2016)

> justphil, here's what I'd do if I were in your shoes...
> 
> Step #1: take Sela up on her offer. Not tomorrow. Tonight.
> 
> ...


This. Definitely this.

Sela is the real deal. Pretty sure I'm the author she's referring to in her post, though it's possible that she's helped more than just me.

Over a period of almost six years, I sold maybe a grand total of 100 to 140 books, ebooks and paperbacks combined. With Sela's help, I now sell about 120 books per month, combined ebooks and paperbacks, and I average about 2,000 pages read in KU per day. And that's with just two books of an eventual three book series.

Give Sela a chance to help. You might not have to Hang It Up after all.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

First, you need to take a long hard look at the common factor here: yourself. And your writing. It's not Amazon's fault you aren't making any money. It's either your writing, what you're writing or lack of marketing that's the likely culprit. Or it could be your covers. It's hard to tell since you won't link to your work. I understand the sentiment, but it doesn't sound like you have much to lose here.

Second, didn't you post a similar topic almost two years ago? You haven't learned or changed anything since then?

Third, short stories are a hard sell. I know I don't read them. I only read some because they were by one of my favorite authors and even then I preferred the novels. Erotica is probably the biggest seller in that format or it used to be. I know my erotica pen name, which I haven't touched in over a year, still gets more sales and pages read than your books. And I never did any marketing on that pen name.

If you know what you're doing in terms of cover, genre, length, etc., you can start making money without doing any marketing at all. I know I made something like $250 one month just by releasing the first book in a series I wrote to market. No ads or promotions, just putting the book out with the right blurb, cover, length, keywords, and so on.

You need to decide if you want to work for this or if you're going to continue blaming Amazon for your lack of success. I recommend studying the market and choosing a genre you enjoy. Write a series of books and do promotions on the first one. A Freebooksy ad on a first book is easy to get even without any reviews. If you get a decent sell through, you'll know you're doing something right. I recommend doing all this with a new pen name.

Also, being an "academic" has nothing to do with being a successful fiction writer. You need to write books people actually _want_ to read not what you think they _should_ read.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2016)

Without seeing your books it's really hard to judge the validity of your conclusion. There was a post last week of someone complaining about bad reviews... went and checked out their books and was shocked they had any good reviews! Yet they were 100% convinced the bad reviews were erroneous (but to an objective observer they most certainly weren't).  Clearly no one in their life had ever sat them down and told them "Look, your writing just isn't good."

Having said that, irrespective of your actual books (they may be great), sorry that the experience has reached this point for you. I can see this happening even to people with great books. It's sad that people have to try so hard only to eventually throw up their hands in frustration and disappointment. Amazon has some responsibility to bear in that for throwing its doors wide open and letting so many unqualified books into its marketplace. 

The result is amazing books never rise and some very mediocre books go through the roof (because they succeeded at marketing and figuring out how to rise in the Amazon world). 

Anyway, just wanted to say it sucks to see someone having to go through the moment you are having now. Regardless of what you do next, hope things get better.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

NeedWant said:


> Second, didn't you post a similar topic almost two years ago? You haven't learned or changed anything since then?


Close, 18 months and it would appear the same advice given then has been ignored and surprise, nothing has changed and it's still all Amazon's fault 

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,210120.0.html


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Echoing what others have said, short fiction doesn't sell very well. I write mainly short fiction myself and don't sell all that well either.

If you're having problems getting traction on Amazon, I would untick the KDP Select box and go wide as soon as possible. Amazon has a specific audience with specific tastes. However, other retailers have other audiences and a different focus. If you can't or won't do the write to market thing (and write to market usually means the Amazon market), you might do actually do better wide, since you don't have much of an Amazon KU audience to lose and might well gain new readers elsewhere. For example, Amazon.com makes up only about 30% of my total sales.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

AliceW said:


> Close, 18 months and it would appear the same advice given then has been ignored and surprise, nothing has changed and it's still all Amazon's fault
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,210120.0.html


I remember reading through that thread back when it was first posted. It's sad that it's been 18 months and it's still the same old story.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Second, didn't you post a similar topic almost two years ago? You haven't learned or changed anything since then?


We did change something since then. I decided to do the military sci-fi series, which is the only reason we have any sales on Amazon at all since last summer.

It would appear I miscalculated the aversion Amazon readers have to episodic works and/or shorter-than-novel-length works. I had no idea people were so vehemently opposed to shorter books. The new romance and fantasy books I wrote, and the new titles my friends have written since then have only sold significantly on our own shop and that only because we have a small but dedicated group of readers. They sell not at all on Amazon.

It really may boil down to lack of novel-length titles. It really could be that simple. I don't understand why Amazon has entire browse categories set aside for books nobody apparently buys, but there you have it.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

justphil said:


> We did change something since then. I decided to do the military sci-fi series, which is the only reason we have any sales on Amazon at all since last summer.
> 
> It would appear I miscalculated the aversion Amazon readers have to episodic works and/or shorter-than-novel-length works. I had no idea people were so vehemently opposed to shorter books. The new romance and fantasy books I wrote, and the new titles my friends have written since then have only sold significantly on our own shop and that only because we have a small but dedicated group of readers. They sell not at all on Amazon.
> 
> It really may boil down to lack of novel-length titles. It really could be that simple. I don't understand why Amazon has entire browse categories set aside for books nobody apparently buys, but there you have it.


There are some authors making money with novella length works but the majority are doing it with novels. Military sci-fi is mostly novel-length from what I've seen.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

David J Normoyle said:


> Don't just listen to what readers say, look at what they do....
> 
> Readers say they hate cliffhangers, then buy the next book in droves. Readers give out stink about typos, then buy terribly edited and formatted books because the story keeps them reading all night. Whether they buy or don't buy is what matters for success, not what they say.


This needs to be repeated over and over until it sinks in. It needs to be a sticky. It needs to be printed out and nailed to the walls by our computers.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

Bringing out my elephant in the room.......
I have an overwhelming urge to write a military SF serial in 3 long arcs.  maybe 8 episodes each covering the ganger becoming a soldier and on to a leader.
I REALLY have the URGE to do it as serial of about 8-11K for each episode.
But aside from not having enough time there is a BIG part of me that wants to pull my head out of my rear and I need to be aware that those usually sink fast.
Instead I am going to write the whole darn thing in the same manner but put it straight into 3 books.  A trilogy Boom!  exactly what people want.  I bet I sell more that way than doing shorts.  Not willing to chance it.


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## AngelaQuarles (Jun 22, 2014)

> It could very well be the market doesn't want shorter works or bundles, which means I have to make a choice between word count and the cliffs. I can do 1500 words of acceptable quality work an hour. I could probably do a 100k novel every 30 days. If that would sell better then it would be worth a try.


The others have been giving very good advice and I'd like to echo those that say risk the cliffs. I totally do NOT make myself a slave to Amazon's algos. My latest release was a full year after the previous book in the series and it did well (paid for itself and then some in the first month). I did have an audio book released between then, but that was in March while this ebook release was in July, so again, it was past cliff time. I'm in it for the long term, so I'm slowly building a fan base, a catalog, and my mailing list so that when I do have a release I have an audience to sell to that haven't forgotten me.


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## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

Five and a half years is a long time to be struggling. I'm just over a year in, and I, too, struggle with marketing. I've seen people make more in their first week than I did in my first year.

I know it's hard to hear criticism, and sometimes people make things sound so easy - 'write a more marketable story,' 'get better covers' - and those things actually require a whole lot of in-depth understanding of your audience and genre expectations etc. But you don't have to do it all at once. My own philosophy is to keep inching upward, getting better at it all the time.


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## RipleyKing (Mar 5, 2013)

See what I said in your "abandoned" post.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

1) write series novels of 40k+ words/150+ pages. Certain genres are receptive to novellas/shorts, and both shorter formats have their place as a marketing freebie for the mailing list or as a tide-over between full series installments. But they don't sell nearly as well as full-length novels. Don't bother with standalones, short story bundles or anything else until you can effectively sell series novels. It's the easiest place to start, marketing wise, and it's what most readers want.

2) some books will never sell, no matter how much advertising you throw at them. I have multiple books like this in my own catalog, and I just ignore them. They might sell ten copies for the rest of my life (and I'm pretty young). It doesn't matter. I consider them learning projects and have moved on. 
2a) some books will never sell on Amazon, but perform well wide. Some books do gangbusters in KU, but drop like stones once you put them wide. You can tell what genres are more popular with KU, but on a book-by-book basis there is variance. Test your catalog, keep records, advertise and see what sticks.

3) you need to advertise continuously (every month, preferably, which you can do with a fairly large catalog) in order to make money on Amazon or any other retailer. Period. Some people get sticky and get love from the algorithms, but even that usually takes more advertising juice than what I've seen you talk about with BKNights. Most of the successful authors are running campaigns - even something small, like $30 - $50 - every month or every other month, getting backlist titles in front of new readers.
3a) to whit: a recent series of mine made about $3,000 in August, with a new release at the end of July + a big free run ($300 of promo). With no promo or new release in September, the monthly revenue from that series is down to about $1,000. *You gotta keep feeding the beast with new books and new ads. *
3b) if none of your books qualify for sites because of low reviews, read these two guides: How to Get Amazon Reviews for Your Books & A Mini Guide to Launching Your New Release (Promo Sites You Can Use Without Reviews)

4) take Sela up on her offer. She knows what she's talking about.

5) academically correct writing is often horrifically boring. I got As on basically all my school papers and graduated with an English degree. My fiction writing was a disaster - way too focused on ticking punctuation boxes and totally clueless in terms of plot structure, conflict, effective characterization and so forth. Genre fiction writing is about two primary things: an entertaining story + engaging characters that the reader can empathize with. Readers will forgive typos, awful grammar or the most stilted prose imaginable if you have those things. They will not forgive spinning a boring narrative or having a bunch of asshat, unlikable characters running around that they can't empathize with. Even an objectively awful character, like Tony Soprano, is likable and can be empathized with.

6) It took 13 novels - probably close to 1,000,000 words - before I wrote something actually good. Sure, there were things along the way that I _thought _were good, or desperately _wanted _to be good - but that novel was a leap. When I finished it, I was like, yeah, that was what I was trying to do with novel number one. It took until my 15th novel for me to write something that didn't cost me more to produce than it earned. My first novel was a mess; each one thereafter got gradually better as I fixed the various things people would comment on (bad endings, unlikable characters, excessive bad language etc.). It took 3.5 years to get to that 13th novel. Just because you have X amount of experience doesn't mean you can't get better. Writing a lot also doesn't mean you ARE getting better, or are good - do you have a practice program set up, meant to shore up your weaknesses? If not, set one up, where you write a short story focused on a certain type of character, a novel where you're drilling scenes + sequels and so forth.

7) be willing to change what you're doing and accept that what you've done in the past might have been way off-base. 1.15% CTR on Facebook Ads is not particularly good, and isn't remotely close to being "astronomically high." If a hundred people visit your page and no one buys, there's a problem with some part of the Amazon page - find it. I don't mention these points to criticize, merely to point out that we all have blind spots in our knowledge. Things we think we're doing well, or facts we think we know often turn out to be the opposite upon closer inspection. Correcting this [crap] is annoying and involves trial and error. I've written hundreds of blurbs, swapped out covers that cost me hundreds of dollars, reformatted and reuploaded my books hundreds of times in order to identify the right back matter. Gradually, I've gotten better; sometimes I go backwards, and rewrite a blurb only to find that the new version is worse. This isn't always a linear process.

8 ) alternatively, have someone knowledgeable (like Sela) take a look at your books and shortcut that trial and error process considerably by pointing out obvious gremlins that are mucking up the sales works. Seriously, that's like gold.

9) sales are the ultimate vote of whether what you're doing is what readers want. If you're not getting sales traction, there's a problem with either your craft or your marketing. There is good news, however, once you identify the problem: you can fix either of those with practice and input from others. I know that I sucked at both at first, which was why I sold 14 copies of my first novel. On Amazon, you're going up against the likes of Stephen King, J.K. Rowling, Jim Butcher, John Scalzi, Nora Roberts and other professional, well-established authors - you need to bring your game up to that level, or at least aim for it.

10) if you can write 60 works and keep going despite limited sales, you have the most important ingredient of success: persistence. Now you need to apply that trait to identifying your chief problems and then implementing solutions. Pick the most glaring issues (my #1 recommended change: start with writing novels in a popular genre - shorts just don't sell well) and then shore those up. Again, progress won't be linear; it's not necessarily true that Book #61 will suddenly be where the cash basket dumps on you from the sky. But you will be headed in the right direction.

11) take Sela up on her offer.

Nick


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

inconsequential said:


> This. Definitely this.
> 
> Sela is the real deal. Pretty sure I'm the author she's referring to in her post, though it's possible that she's helped more than just me.
> 
> ...


Does Sela hire out because I so need that kind of help 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

If your goal is to make money, being "good" isn't important. Writing books that people want to read is. One way to do this is to write similarly to what's selling well. 

I resisted doing this for years and over 50 novels. Then I struggled to figure out how to do it for a couple more. Finally I got close, and since I've been publishing frequent releases written to market, I've been making low five figures a month. 

The stuff I wrote before still doesn't sell.


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## James_T (May 15, 2012)

The only seller I saw mentioned was Amazon. If you hate them so much, publish your stuff WIDE. Forget Amazon.

While I appreciate your proper English, it seems that much of the market could care less. Good editing is still the way to go.

You have an English degree. Great. The best story tellers I know don't have one... nor do they even have a degree. Your English degree means squat and if you think it should guarantee that you make millions in this age of self-publishing, you need to take another look at yourself.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Your English degree means squat


My English degree means I am academically qualified to teach creative writing. It also means I can rule out bad grammar and technical issues like spelling, punctuation and vocabulary as reasons for my books not selling. That is the only reason I mentioned it. I never asserted it should guarantee me sales.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

James_T said:


> You have an English degree. Great. The best story tellers I know don't have one... nor do they even have a degree. Your English degree means squat and if you think it should guarantee that you make millions in this age of self-publishing, you need to take another look at yourself.


I work as a copywriter, and my company just fired a colleague because it turns out she was a poor writer. She also had an English degree.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

I think the consensus is I chose to write books of improper length.  While I'm not writing "short stories" per se, I am writing books that are 10k to 15k words each (which are episodes rather than standalone stories) and then bundling them into longer works.  I mistakenly thought this would give me the best of both:  fast release schedule + works of sufficient length to satisfy readers that prefer higher page counts.  I was wrong.  

Apparently people want novels with series potential.  I can do that.  Ultimately I'm taking the same story elements and characters and developing them into a deeper narrative.  I may or may not be able to keep up with the 30 and 90 day windows, but if what I've read today is true, I may not have to.  I'm going from teleplays to screenplays, so to speak.  

On the plus side, if I do it this way at least I won't have to make three or four covers a month.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

justphil said:


> I think the consensus is I chose to write books of improper length. While I'm not writing "short stories" per se, I am writing books that are 10k to 15k words each (which are episodes rather than standalone stories) and then bundling them into longer works. I mistakenly thought this would give me the best of both: fast release schedule + works of sufficient length to satisfy readers that prefer higher page counts. I was wrong.
> 
> Apparently people want novels with series potential. I can do that. Ultimately I'm taking the same story elements and characters and developing them into a deeper narrative. I may or may not be able to keep up with the 30 and 90 day windows, but if what I've read today is true, I may not have to. I'm going from teleplays to screenplays, so to speak.
> 
> On the plus side, if I do it this way at least I won't have to make three or four covers a month.


I think its also worth considering that if you focus on longer works which the market is more receptive to, you may find your shorts start to move. They might not go gangbusters, and shorts remain hard for anyone to sell, but I would think if you establish a foothold in the market with longer works and build up a fan base, you could also move some shorts. You never know!


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

rmclean said:


> Without seeing your books it's really hard to judge the validity of your conclusion. There was a post last week of someone complaining about bad reviews... went and checked out their books and was shocked they had any good reviews! Yet they were 100% convinced the bad reviews were erroneous (but to an objective observer they most certainly weren't). Clearly no one in their life had ever sat them down and told them "Look, your writing just isn't good."


I think I know which one you're talking about. I did the same. Offered to help _for free_ (I have been in a lull this month so have more time to dedicate to the pay-it-forward program). No response. And it's a shame because the book I looked at really had potential, I thought.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

emilycantore said:


> The hostility here is getting out of control...


I think the frustration level is increasing.

The op made the same complaint nearly 2 years ago, received very similar advice and then comes back complaining of the same thing and has apparently done nothing to change. They appear to be doing the same thing for the exact same result they complained of 2 years ago. When posters keep asking the same thing, ignoring a range of advice and then coming back to complain of the same thing, people become frustrated. It's like yelling at a deaf person, the louder pitch isn't going to make a difference to the OP's comprehension of the issue.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

James_T said:


> You have an English degree. Great. The best story tellers I know don't have one... nor do they even have a degree.


I have to agree with this. The SINGLE best storyteller I've ever met personally was a 9th grade dropout who was dyslexic and a very big man (6'8", 350+ pounds of muscle) whose fingers would hit four keys for every one he aimed at. Plus he used extensive and extreme Australian slang and didn't like explaining it. Reading his writing was like running in water, but I would literally squeal with glee when I saw he had a new post up. We were good friends and then fierce enemies and then lost touch, but to this day I would pay my last dollar to read any story he chose to tell, even if it looked like he'd written it using a hammer on the keyboard.

One of the most successful indie authors I know is also a high school dropout. She's got her skills down pat, is one of the cleanest-writing clients I have, and clearly a wonderful storyteller since she's making a very good living with her books.

And conversely, I've known and worked with MANY MANY people with advanced degrees who, I figure, were probably the dean's drug dealers or something - that's the only way they could have graduated.

A degree or even a HS diploma doesn't necessarily mean all that much. But good story-telling... man, that'll keep 'em coming back no matter what.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't know what anyone else has said (four pages!), but two things struck me right away:

"I publish short works {snip}"

and:

"mid-grade/YA"

I have to wonder if you've considered that writing longer books in genres/categories that are easier to sell for ebooks -- which is basically anything other that mid-grade -- might get you the results you want. You've been here long enough to have seen the threads where people have worked really hard and managed to build careers. Many of them with little to no marketing. But, in at least most of these stories, they are writing stuff that sells. I've seen more than one thread about how hard/impossible it is to sell stuff for children.

I'm sorry things haven't worked out like you'd hoped. I've had my share of disappointment on this path. You can either change things, or quit, I guess. One thing I can say, life is too short to be unhappy. If publishing isn't making you happy, and it sounds like it's not, then you have a decision to make, and all we can do is offer advice, sympathy, and a big "atta boy" for whatever you decide to do from here.


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## RichardHein (Jun 8, 2011)

I hear you man. The responses you're getting is most of the reason I've stayed away from KBoards for the last 3 years. If you make a post against the zeitgeist of generally assumed writing knowledge you're attacked rather than making any sort of attempt at discussion. It's always "you're whining, suck it up" or "all you have to do is exactly what I did jeeze" or "have you ever thought it's YOU that is the problem way to blame everyone else". 

There's also so much conflicting information stated as empirical fact. One person declares that you're not doing enough to market, while on the other side of the coin plenty of people will claim that Amazon is the best marketer and your time is best spent writing the next novel. For every vitriolic opinion spewed on what you're doing wrong there's another equal amount doing the opposite and succeeding.

People have to pick apart the person, rather than confront the argument. Amazon IS fickle, unfairly biased toward certain authors and their algorithm is purely magic and unknowable. While I have no doubt many people succeed due to effort, the fact is that another chunk get lucky with the random algorithms and then assign it to skill. Amazon is magic. A magic that works within a certain set of boundaries that can be somewhat understood but there is still a vast layer of behind the scenes luck that few are willing to admit to, as if it cheapens their work. There is no "one thing" that will guarantee success; nor is there a series of such things that, when followed like a spell, guarantees success and people parroting such a philosophy are wrong.

I'm sorry you have to suffer the attacks on your character and have fingers pointed at you for having the audacity to question almighty Amazon.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

RichardHein said:


> Amazon IS fickle, unfairly biased toward certain authors and their algorithm is purely magic and unknowable.


Honest question, if you'd humor me? What sort of authors is Amazon biased toward, and why?

Because what I can't figure out is, considering Amazon takes a cut of every sale, if they were going to be biased it seems like they'd be biased in favor of the people who, you know, put out 60 books in 5.5 years. That's just a tiny smidgen less than one book a month - why wouldn't Amazon single _that_ author out for special promotions, weighted advertising, whatever it takes to make sure that every month, *that* author (and others like him) gives Amazon a nice tidy profit?

I can totally buy that Amazon is pulling all KINDS of sneaky stuff behind the scenes, but I don't see how it would be to their advantage to ignore someone who's basically a potential money-making machine for them. Any theories? Anyone?


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

RichardHein said:


> Amazon IS fickle, unfairly biased toward certain authors and their algorithm is purely magic and unknowable. While I have no doubt many people succeed due to effort, the fact is that another chunk get lucky with the random algorithms and then assign it to skill. Amazon is magic.


What a load of b/s. There is nothing magical, random or mysterious about Amazon's algorithms. If you dug around in the k-boards you will find many excellent posts pulling apart the algorithms and analysing what factors play an influential part. PhoenixS is one k-boarder who has devoted a lot of time and mental energy to explaining how things work. There is zero incentive for Amazon to randomly punish some authors and lift others up. Luck is when preparation meets opportunity. You can either believe that selling books is some random pixie sprinkle beyond your control and become a victim, or knuckle down, understand the market and do the work to give your books a chance of succeeding.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2016)

SerenityEditing said:


> I think I know which one you're talking about. I did the same. Offered to help _for free_ (I have been in a lull this month so have more time to dedicate to the pay-it-forward program). No response. And it's a shame because the book I looked at really had potential, I thought.


Ya, I don't blame people though. Reality can be difficult to confront sometimes. I just feel bad that they end up in such a frustrating situation in large part because they refuse to see the writing on the wall.

That's the ugly side of Amazon's business model... feeding the delusion that anyone can be a writer. And a lot of the surround sound service just make it worse (oh you just need a good cover, a good blurb, etc.) Some people just can't write and they need to know that. And I don't say that from the perspective that I'm some great writer... if things don't work out for me, I'll be honest with myself about it and hang up my hat and call it a day.

Just kind of sad all the way around. That was nice of you to offer to help... their lack of response only tells you that ultimately they are never going to find their way out of the mess they are stuck in.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> Apparently people want novels with series potential.


In general, if one wants quicker results, then series written to trope and published quickly is the best road. But, I believe one can build a career doing stand alone books, written well (not off the wall, but not trend-only) and not serials. But, it's going to take more work building the audience, more promotions, more time.

It seems like everyone here has said the same things, so that should really be telling you that you're on the wrong path if you want sales. It's nothing personal, nobody is tearing you down, or questioning your character, or whatever that guy a few posts above me said. We're seeing somebody who is missing the boat, according to the goals and circumstances given us.

The reason writing advice is common is because it works. People didn't pull this stuff out of their butts, they've done it and gotten the results they wanted. It's gotten them sales and readers want more of their books. That's what it's about, right? Getting sales? Happy customers?

I'm a little punch-drunk and will be crashing pretty soon, because spending hours in the emergency room with my father has taken all I have. I just want to say, take Sela up on her offer, stop acting like we're pulling your toe nails out when we say, the market wants longer works. We're not shining you on. Really, we're not.

I would love it if the market for short stories suddenly opened up. Absolutely be spinning and singing show tunes. I was born to write shorts. I believe that with all my heart. But, it is what it is. I'm writing longer, because that's where the money is.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

RichardHein said:


> I hear you man. The responses you're getting is most of the reason I've stayed away from KBoards for the last 3 years. If you make a post against the zeitgeist of generally assumed writing knowledge you're attacked rather than making any sort of attempt at discussion. It's always "you're whining, suck it up" or "all you have to do is exactly what I did jeeze" or "have you ever thought it's YOU that is the problem way to blame everyone else".


I see the "KBoards is mean" thing come up from time-to-time, and I just don't get it. While a few folks have come into this thread with sharp criticism based on the perceived tone of the OP - perhaps warranted, perhaps not - there are literally dozens of responses, many from full-time authors, giving specific, actionable advice in the kindest possible way. Totally free, totally not asking for anything in return. I see one of the most successful authors on the boards offering her personalized advice for free.

But what I don't see is most people being mean about it; it would be mean to lie and say, hey, you're doing everything right - you're about to break through without any adjustments. That's not true, and that's not kind. But the issues are fixable with a little grit, and more importantly, _they're common_. Most of us have encountered some variation of them along the way - whether it's "why isn't my grammatically correct prose selling?" or "why aren't my shorts moving?" - which is why people are responding.

There is advice worth north of six figures in this thread. The collective wisdom, if implemented, is priceless. I hope that someone - whether it's the OP, or not - takes it to heart and, if they're not seeing the success they want, adjusts their publishing business accordingly. These principles work, but they work _imperfectly _and often on their own time schedules. There are many ways to succeed, but the recommendations here are simply best practices that give you the best odds of succeeding in an already challenging - and occasionally soul-crushing - business.

This board has been immensely helpful to my writing career in incredible ways. It's honestly mind-blowing how open authors are with sharing their paths to success and information that has cost them years and thousands of dollars in trial and error to discover. I've read dozens of books, taken expensive courses, read tons of blogs and listened to an incredible amount of podcasts. For marketing knowledge, nothing else comes close.

Nick


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Nicholas Erik said:


> I see the "KBoards is mean" thing come up from time-to-time, and I just don't get it. While a few folks have come into this thread with sharp criticism based on the perceived tone of the OP - perhaps warranted, perhaps not - there are literally dozens of responses, many from full-time authors, giving specific, actionable advice in the kindest possible way. Totally free, totally not asking for anything in return. I see one of the most successful authors on the boards offering her personalized advice for free.
> 
> But what I don't see is most people being mean about it; it would be mean to lie and say, hey, you're doing everything right - you're about to break through without any adjustments. That's not true, and that's not kind. But the issues are fixable with a little grit, and more importantly, _they're common_. Most of us have encountered some variation of them along the way - whether it's "why isn't my grammatically correct prose selling?" or "why aren't my shorts moving?" - which is why people are responding.
> 
> ...


I agree. Seems to me that the hive mind here actually enjoys solving problems and helping. Given the OP hasn't shown any specifics, people have had to basically infer what the problems may be and have offered advice based on that.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

People don't buy shorts. I currently have 61 published items on Amazon, of which 50 usually sell 0-1 copies a month (usually 0 haha). Most of those are shorts or bundles of shorts. One novel series (the left one in my sig) is 90% of my income. And that, currently, is about $100 a month. I'm coming up for five years in 2017. Dude, am I going to quit? Hell no. The reason? This is my dream. Since I was a little kid, all I ever wanted to be was a writer. And now I am. Sure, I'm no bestseller, and might not be ever, but I'm a writer with books for sale online. The next stage of the dream is to be full time, and if that takes 10, 20 years, so be it. If this isn't for you, then so be it. But if you quit, you have no idea how close you might have been to hitting gold.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

emilycantore said:


> The hostility here is getting out of control...


Agree. Can we just lay off with the anti-intellectualism, please? There are a lot of people with English degrees here and I don't see any need to insult them, just because some people are frustrated with the OP.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

CoraBuhlert said:


> Agree. Can we just lay off with the anti-intellectualism, please? There are a lot of people with English degrees here and I don't see any need to insult them, just because some people are frustrated with the OP.


I don't think it's anti-intellectualism. Certainly my comment wasn't intended to be. Just more that an English degree doesn't entitle someone to selling.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

ChrisWard said:


> *People don't buy shorts. *I currently have 61 published items on Amazon, of which 50 usually sell 0-1 copies a month (usually 0 haha). Most of those are shorts or bundles of shorts. One novel series (the left one in my sig) is 90% of my income. And that, currently, is about $100 a month. I'm coming up for five years in 2017. Dude, am I going to quit? Hell no. The reason? This is my dream. Since I was a little kid, all I ever wanted to be was a writer. And now I am. Sure, I'm no bestseller, and might not be ever, but I'm a writer with books for sale online. The next stage of the dream is to be full time, and if that takes 10, 20 years, so be it. If this isn't for you, then so be it. But if you quit, you have no idea how close you might have been to hitting gold.


I say it depends on the genre and how engaging the story is. I could point out a few authors writing short stories and novellas who are always ranking well. I read their books.

I buy short stories, novellas, novels, series and audiobooks mainly in the romance genre. I also read some YA and non-fiction. I love short straight to the point non-fiction. I have friends who love novellas, I would say mainly romance or mystery. My mum loves shorter books too because she's so busy she likes a quick read, she loves cozy mystery.

There is an audience for everything but some groups might be so small e.g. readers who love romance short stories.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

RichardHein said:


> I hear you man. The responses you're getting is most of the reason I've stayed away from KBoards for the last 3 years. If you make a post against the zeitgeist of generally assumed writing knowledge you're attacked rather than making any sort of attempt at discussion. It's always "you're whining, suck it up" or "all you have to do is exactly what I did jeeze" or "have you ever thought it's YOU that is the problem way to blame everyone else".
> 
> There's also so much conflicting information stated as empirical fact. One person declares that you're not doing enough to market, while on the other side of the coin plenty of people will claim that Amazon is the best marketer and your time is best spent writing the next novel. For every vitriolic opinion spewed on what you're doing wrong there's another equal amount doing the opposite and succeeding.
> 
> ...


So...what would your advice to the OP be? Keep doing what he's doing? Stop playing because the game is rigged?

A lot of people in this thread took the time to share what worked for them. One of them even offered one-on-one help for free! And she's a successful author! And she's done this before! But the OP shouldn't take her up on that more than generous offer because, what, Amazon favors books and authors that actually sell?

Some people get lucky. That's life. But most of the super successful authors work their butts off to be where they are. There is no magic formula for success, you're right about that, but there are certain steps one can take that make success _far_ more likely. And even if they're not super successful, they'll at least make _some_ money instead of none.

This thread and others like it and the threads where authors talk about how they made it are literal gold mines when it comes to this business. You can choose to ignore all that, that's your choice. But I'm glad that people didn't just ignore the OP and said "Oh well, good luck with that." That would be the real tragedy here, not a few people being a bit harsh in delivering their message.

And yeah, I know this post is falling on deaf ears. You've already made up your mind. I just had to say something. I know there's someone out there who might find something useful in it. It could be a lurker who's never posted here. I used to be that lurker and I learned a lot by just paying attention to what people who were making it in this business were saying. I'm still learning. I'm nowhere near where I want to be, but I'm giving it my best shot at least. I'm not burying my head in the sand and blaming outside forces if things don't go my way. I look in the mirror and try to figure out what I can do to get to where I want to be. And you know what? I'm a lot closer to my goal now than I was a year ago. And you know what made the difference? Writing and marketing more.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

BellaJames said:


> I say it depends on the genre and how engaging the story is. I could point out a few authors writing short stories and novellas who are always ranking well. I read their books.


This is true. In my secondary genre of Regency romance, there are authors doing really well with shorts in the 50-70 page zone. If the presentation and story meet reader expectations, and the author can put out a book or two a month, it's possible to make good money, even with 99c shorts. On the other hand, in epic fantasy - not so much. Readers there do expect something longer, and get pretty stroppy if their requirements aren't being met.

On the other points in the thread, I don't have anything to add. Not being a big seller myself, I don't have any magic formula for success. What I can say, though, is that it's possible to make reasonable money from this game even without being a mega-seller, or writing to market, or publishing a book a month. Each new release helps, and KU2 has been very kind to my l-o-n-g epic fantasies. Perseverence, and trying new things keep everything moving upwards, albeit slowly.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I want to step in and thank members who have offered help and suggestions to Phil.

And ask that members not belabor that there was a prior request for help. If members want to offer help here, that's great.  If a member feels he or she has already offered Phil help in the past and doesn't feel compelled to do so again, that's fine--move on, lots of other threads.

And also not belabor Phil's mention of his degree--he was quite clear in why he brought it up initially--in reference to editing--and has reiterated that.

Many members have offered substantive help (special thanks to Sela).  That's the KBoards way.  Let's continue with a positive thread, thanks.  If you find you can't do that, again, lots of other threads.

Betsy


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Just a couple of things to say, given I've skimmed the thread.



justphil said:


> My books are technically fine. I have an English degree. I'm academically qualified to teach creative writing so I can state with confidence I have no grammar, vocabulary, spelling or punctuation problems. I'm also an experienced programmer, and I hand-code both mobi and (validated) epub versions of every book I publish, so it's not a formatting issue either.


I've seen books where the author had them edited by 3 different well-respected editors, and the book still had a dozen very obvious typos in it.

Qualifications aside, everyone makes mistakes. If they happen to be in your sample, it will put people off. I cant check, since you have nothing linked.



> My military sci-fi series launched with five books in four weeks. It was the fastest selling, and because of the keyword situation ended up in about eight browse categories. I sold a few hundred copies across the series (now 16 books) and kept publishing for several months afterwards. The reviews were positive, if meager in numbers. And then it tailed off and back to zero, where it has remained ever since.


Linking it with something else said - if it was all novella length, then you were behind the eight ball before you started, as sci-fi people want LONG books. My recent ones have come in at 68-72k each, and they all got called short.

Start again with a new series unrelated to your previous one, and write LOOOOONG. If you write novellas, then string them along until you have 100k, then release it as one book. Then do 2 move and call it a trilogy. Then start again on a new idea. People make a living doing this. And there is a big market for it. But you have to write a decent length book, it must be something which grabs the reader by the short and curlies on page 1 and drags them past the sample, and you have to release them no more than 8 weeks apart.



> Hereabouts, we've been treated to story after story about how all of a sudden, somebody's book started to sell. My personal favorites are the one about the author who launched cold (new pen name, new series, no history as a writer, no platform, no nothing) and made $1400 in the first month, then went on to sell a half-million books for millions in income.
> ......
> There is no reasonable mechanism by which an author with no experience or history can just walk into Amazon KDP and move $1400 worth of books in their first 30 days without some kind of artificial help.
> ......
> My other favorite is "I published my third book in the series and then WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I'm on a roller-coaster to moneyland and the party never ends!" It's like someone flipped a switch. It reminds me of the lottery.


Weeeellllll......

I did it. Not 30 days, but I released book 1 in late April, and book 3 in early July, and I did that 1400 your talking about in that July, and haven't looked back. I've had a few bad months this year due to releasing 3 monthly instead of 6 weekly like I used to, but I'm still making a living amount on a bad month.

And yes, there was nothing at all helping me. I published a whole lot of spiritual books to get familiar with KDP, and those dont sell more than 30 a month in total, and I never expected them to.

But my book 3 took off, and I did nothing except write books 2 and 3 very quickly, and the content of 3 was exactly what Space Opera readers wanted to read, and they went back and read 1 and 2 after. Rest is history, now writing 12.

Yes, it was like flipping a switch. But I had the right length book, with a grab the reader opening chapter, which led into a roller coast ride story. I didn't know I'd written that at the time, but that's what it was.

I'm not at a million yet, but I'm working on it. Its only been a bit over a year for me so far.

So, suggestions - take with a grain of salt....

My understanding of military SF is the readers a re a lot more critical of whats in it. So take a step away, and write good Space Opera, with a military component. Write for the 80k words market, and release a trilogy 4 weeks apart. Then do it again in the same genre, with something completely different.

Get your covers to scream Space Opera. Get your blurbs right, and your sample dragging people in.

Then just keep writing.

If you dont want to do SO, choose a genre, work out the optimal book length, work out what the first chapter should read like to suck readers in, and then write it. And keep on writing it for at least 2 years before you change directions.

In that time, you have your mailing list for the genre in your backmatter of every book, and it should build for you.

If no-one is reading when you write correctly for the genre, then you have to look at what you're writing. And a lot of it is your first chapter. For SO, you launch into the action from the first sentence, and explain it in chapter 3. I'm not sure what military SF expects, but I when I look at it, if the first page doesn't grab me, I move on to the next one. Its how I learned to write that way myself, by looking at the first page of books which sell. And it did work for me. My book 1 doesn't properly grab you, even though the situation is dire. My book 2 grabs attention, but loses the fish too quickly. Book 3 grabs the attention and doesn't let the reader go. I got it right, and 3 and 4 were the draws into the series for 6 months.

What you say is impossible is doable. But you have to put your ego and qualification aside, and learn how to write for each sub-genre the way readers want it now (as apposed to how it was taught to you, or how you teach it).

Ok, I hadn't meant to say this much. But you hit a nerve, because I did it. And after a while, by writing a few things which flopped, I've figured how to do it. Only problem I have now is I locked myself into something for which the ideal only comes out every couple of books now. The ones which haven't got the special zing dont do as well, and the flow back from a new one doesn't work as well. Its a learning process, but that's why I say write long, and write in trilogies. My next series will be limited to 3 books, but I plan to make them around the 90k mark if possible. I just have to finish what I started first.

Don't give up. Amazon are not helping, but they expect you to do the heavy lifting first, and that means writing something people really want to read. Dumping Amazon is not the answer. Changing the way you write is.

Another way of looking at it is you now have a big back library. The moment you do publish a hit, all those books will be looked at in a different light. So keep at it.


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## KatieLee (Jul 20, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> Just a couple of things to say, given I've skimmed the thread.
> 
> I've seen books where the author had them edited by 3 different well-respected editors, and the book still had a dozen very obvious typos in it.
> 
> ...


Wow.

This response is amazing.

Thank you for taking the time to share such a detailed post, Timothy.

Katie


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

AliceW said:


> Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.


I love this Alice. I've written it on a post it note and stuck it up above my desk.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

To the OP, I have only skimmed the thread, so I'm sorry if this has been suggested already (in fact it probably has considering how smart so many of the people here are). But I think you're problem is writing shorter stories/novellas. I've come to terms with the detriment this has had on my own books, by seeing that without doubt my longer books are better sellers.

The solution seems obvious to me - you say that they are serialised stories? Instead of bundling them, you should be turning them into one book. The reality is that bundles of shorter works are less appealing. I know it's crazy because it is the same thing, but it's a mind set issue. I suggest pulling the books down, a little bit of rewriting to make them flow into each other and then re-release all your work as several single, novel length, books. (you should probably put a note in to say they were previously released, but then again if your sales were as bad as you said it probably won't matter too much).


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

KatieLee said:


> Wow.
> 
> This response is amazing.
> 
> ...


You're welcome 

A few after thoughts:

Military Sci-Fi readers love their info-dumps. They thrive on being told how all the tech works.

But the biggest mistake for MSF authors, imo, is they spend pages and pages at the beginning building a universe, telling us all about the tech, and how wonderful it is, and the only word which comes to mind when reading the sample is - BORING. But an SO author doing the same story will start with a battle, bring the hero to the edge of disaster, and then spend a chapter tops on the tech and history somewhere around chapter 5. The best way of doing it is never explain the tech at all, but let the reader figure it out from the story. But we do love our info-dumps, so some are allowable, but, again imo, info dumps in the sample are a no-no.

Its like a lot of other genres when I read the sample. They start with two people talking about the past, or swapping anecdotes, or arguing about something, and its BORING. They start by building their universe, or with a history lesson, and its BORING. The story may actually be kick arse, but if I cant see that on the first page, I dont go looking any further.

If the book is about a war, you lead with the war. If its any kind of conflict, you lead with the conflict. If its about a killer, you lead with the first kill that's important. Grab the reader, then go back and show them how you got there.

I'm rambling, sorry. In the middle of writing a battle scene right now.  And I freely admit I made this same mistake in my wip, realized it, and went back and wrote a new first chapter.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

One little note....

Tastes in book length will vary from genre-to-genre..... 

This is really important to understand and it's one of the topics covered in the "Write to Market" book.  When I did a quick look through Military SciFi it seemed the average book length was about 400 pages.  There are some outliers who did well with shorts in scifi (like T.S. Paul). But for the most part... the books in Military scifi appear to be long (80 to 90k words).

Your post really stood out to me.. because I've been stubbornly doing the wrong things since 2011. Every other author I started off with has had some amount of success.... but not me. And it's not Amazon's fault.. it's my fault. That's a hard pill to swallow. 

I know of people who are doing well with shorter works but again it's genre specific!!! I have a friend who has been writing romance novellas for years .  She averages 150 to 200 pages max. Some cozy mystery writers and steamy romance writers (look in New Adult & College) average around that length as well.  So the issue isn't "KU readers don't like shorts". It's about matching your book length what readers in each genre are used to.


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## C. A. Mitchell (Aug 6, 2015)

The Creative Penn podcast recently had an episode about successfully selling shorter works. Might be worth a listen.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I've not read all the posts, only the OP.

I can empathize with your situation and angst. I started around the same time as you, and my collection of shorts made good money that year.  I arrived at your conclusion early 2015 when my income dropped to $5 per month and I wrote a thread on here venting, though not as eloquent as yours.

Much advice was given, and I took a step back to consider my options. I had around 25 shorts from 5,000, 10,000 words, all for sale at 99c and a few full length works.  The conclusion I came to was that considering the number of full length works available at 99c, and considering that short stories are a niche taste, then I had put my efforts into the wrong marketplace, spurred on initially by my  success with my collection back in 2011 which earned out quickly and went on to provide a good profit. 

Like you, for the number of shorts available, reviews were few and far between if any on some of the books, though what I did have, the readers enjoyed them. Also like you, only very rarely did anyone borrow them.

I was slow to change, despite the advice, though I did try updating all the covers right away, but that didn't really work. In the meantime I started to write more full length works, and since then I have published three books at 100,000 words average, and I retail them at $2.99.  I also have 5 other full length works at the WIP stage with 2 more possibly to be published before the end of the year.

In addition to a change of direction, I unpublished all but 3 of my shorts to tidy up my author page. I reckoned that if someone enjoyed a full length work of mine, then visited my page, it would put them off if cluttered by shorts for them to get to what they were really looking for, and that was full length works. I still have to bite the bullet with those last three shorts to unpublish them, and  eventually I will, but psychologically it is so difficult to do. It broke my heart to unpublish the others and I had to tell myself that there was always the option to hit publish again. I nearly lost my nerve a few times on that score, but now I don't think abut it

Here I am now in 2016 and what's changed? 

1, I now have 6 full length works and 1 collection of shorts, and a few scrag ends of the shorts I need to unpublish. When I do advertise a free day, I have a sell on and borrow rate that exceeds by far the cost of the ad. That is especially true as I get around $2 for a borrow and $2 for a sale and not the 35 cents I got for my shorts. I no longer have to rely of either free placement or Bknights at $5 per ad for ads to pay off.

2, For the last three months, the borrow income has exceeded my sales income, with page reads every day spread across my books.

3, Income has gradually increased month on month from the $5 to over $200 this month. Not great, but it's in the right direction.

4, Three on my WIP books are 2nd series to books already published. One will be part of a trilogy, and the others are standalones that can be read in any order as they are MC based, with individual stories that don't rely on the reader picking up the first book.

5, I now have a mailing list that I never had before.

6, I now feel optimistic about the future.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2016)

Submit your short stories to the magazine and textbook markets. See how that goes and report back.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Quote from: Amanda M. Lee on *Yesterday* at 06:42:02


> I'm still confused how this is Amazon's fault.





This_Way_Down said:


> Me too!


Amazon do share some fault here. The algorithms are rigged to make sure anything with marginal sales falls out of visibility range quickly. This has sped up over the course of this year. The 90 day cliff is more like 70-75 days now. You lose momentum 2 weeks after release now, instead of a month. Unless you do really well and the sales and reads hold much longer.

If your book isn't doing 50+ a day for the first week, forget it. It drops like a stone, and then is very hard for anyone to find. When you only get a sale or 2 a day after release, its oblivion very quickly.

That being said, its what Amazon does. And we have to work with whatever they do.

It is all about writing something people want to read, being able to present it well, and launch it well enough to get a good blip going, and then see what happens. That all takes time to get working well.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2016)

Great Godzilla's Gonads! It's not Amazon's fault you can't sell your work. It's yours. You are to blame and no one else. And the sooner you face this, the better off you'll be. You are competing in the same market as tens of thousands of other writers. There is nothing stacked against you that isn't stacked against everyone else. There are no special obstacles set specifically to prevent your success. You play by the same set of rules that I do. And your chances are the same as any other writer who tries self-publishing.
You claim that there is nothing wrong with your work. In fact you make this claim repeatedly. And that is enough to make me suspicious. But let's assume for a moment that you're absolutely brilliant, with an unparalleled literary mind. Clearly, the rest of your approach is wrong. You are not investing your time and money properly. That is not Amazon's fault. There are plenty of successful writers who make no secret of what it takes to do well in the indie world. Most begin by saying that the story has to be good. But like I already said, we'll take that as a given. The rest cannot be ignored or dismissed as nonsense. If you do...well you can see the result.
Failure as an indie is never the fault of the reader or the distributor. It has nothing to do with the world not being able to recognize genius when they see it. It's always, always, always, the writer who is to blame.


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## KatieLee (Jul 20, 2016)

I'm not making a success of indie publishing (yet) so I don't claim to have any nuggets of gold to share, but what I did notice in the opening post was an apparent feeling of wanting to blame Amazon.

It's natural to want to look around at others when things don't work well, so I don't mean this reply with any criticism.

I personally feel incredibly fortunate to be able to write whatever I want and, fairly easily, have it published and available internationally.  That's huge.  However fair or unfair we might feel Amazon's algorithms are, they have levelled the playing field to a huge extent by opening the doors to indie pubs.

I have one fiction piece published currently and it's done nothing - it's had absolutely no attention.

And not for one moment has it occurred to me to blame Amazon for that.

I published it, then life got in the way and I didn't stick to my set out plan for the following books in the series.
I published it, but didn't advertise it at all because my plan was to wait for others in the series before advertising.

It's uncomfortable to think this way and accept that *I* have limited my own potential success up to this point, but...

Nobody else is going to make this happen for me, or you.

Amazon will ultimately look after Amazon's best interests, that's business.  

Only YOU can look after your own best interests, and I think the first step towards that is being prepared to accept that this may not all be Amazon's fault.  It's Amazon's "fault" that your books are available on the world's largest online retailer... I'd say they've done more for you (and me) than against you (and me).

I really do wish you the best of luck in the future.

I'm sure if you still have the heart, and the open mind, for it, you can turn things around.

Katie


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

TimothyEllis said:


> Amazon do share some fault here. The algorithms are rigged to make sure anything with marginal sales falls out of visibility range quickly. This has sped up over the course of this year. The 90 day cliff is more like 70-75 days now. You lose momentum 2 weeks after release now, instead of a month. Unless you do really well and the sales and reads hold much longer.


That's hardly Amazon's fault, it's more to do with the number of indie writers all trying to cram into the same space. The amount of hours spent reading, the amount readers spend on books, is going to be pretty constant year on year. Yet hundreds or thousands of additional indie authors continue to break through each year, and the backlists and mailing lists of those already successful continue to grow. It means that, on average, things will continue to get harder.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Let's all stay calm when making our points despite earning bonus points for colorful original expletives.  I think most people responding here are pointing at things that Phil should change instead of discussing whose fault it is.  That's a better direction for this thread to take.

Thanks.

Betsy


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Writing a book is like giving birth to a baby. After so many hours of pain and sweat, the last thing you want to do is have anyone point out that your baby has any flaws at all. It's your baby and it's the best baby in the world. But when the doctor says there is a flaw and it's fixable, for the good of the baby and your peace of mind, you take the doctor's advice (or maybe get a second opinion) and fix the problem.

I've been publishing since 2009 and I still struggle with anyone saying my baby (book) isn't perfect. I happily send it off to the editor absolutely positive that this time, there are few if any errors. Then it comes back to me all marked up in red. I gasp in horror, grit my teeth and make the changes. Covers, too. Wow, am I great at designing my own covers or what. NOT. Once again, I have to give up my idea of the perfect cover and when I get the cover professionally done, I have to admit I was wrong. 

Yup, I was wrong. Hardest thing for most people to admit, but, if I want my book (baby) to put its best foot forward and look its best when I send it out into the world, I'll put aside my ego and accept help. Am I a raging success? No. Definitely steeped in prawndom here. But I'm learning and I'm listening to the people here and doing what I need to do in my own small way to help my books (baby) be a success. Slow progress, but progress just the same. 

Took me a loooonnnnngggg time to wake up but now I'm planning on a trilogy of full length novels. I've been doing novelettes and novellas for too long.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

This_Way_Down said:


> literary


I think this might be a key word.

In a lot of the genres, people dont want literature. They want a rollicking good yarn. Especially in Sci-Fi.

If you write Sci-Fi in a literary fashion, it isn't going to be received as well.

Its one reason why my books have done so well. I get some criticism, but I never set out to be good literature. I'm telling a yarn.

A literary mindset in Sci-Fi is possibly a handicap. Especially these days.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

David J Normoyle said:


> That's hardly Amazon's fault, it's more to do with the number of indie writers all trying to cram into the same space. The amount of hours spent reading, the amount readers spend on books, is going to be pretty constant year on year. Yet hundreds or thousands of additional indie authors continue to break through each year, and the backlists and mailing lists of those already successful continue to grow. It means that, on average, things will continue to get harder.


I sort of go with this to a point. The OP isn't the only one to consider hanging up their keyboard. Many have done so quietly and will continue to do so, though I doubt in the same numbers of the ones that published a first book as far back as in 2010/12, when it was throw it all at the wall and see what sticks days, and the spiral to price at 99c and free. In those days we were 95% new authors. I can only go by a feeling and not data, in part by having been a member on here at what seems like forever, and seeing the faces and volume of traffic change over the years. Many of those books in Amazon's kindle catalog, and others since that, are still there stuck in the cloud somewhere, never to see the light of day again, marketing of them long since given up on. There are probably millions of such books that could never be seen as competition and they are probably added to each day as a safety valve for new releases and new authors trying their luck. Short stories contribute to that situation, as there was a trend for authors to try and boost their back catalog by adding short stories. Posts would abound on how to make money from shorts, each one convincing themselves and others it was the way to go as a stop gap to build a catalog. Later that was resurrected with KU 1, and debunked with KU 2.

There is no doubt that it is harder for a new author to break through these days, or even to consider self-publishing, because there are now so many seasoned self-publishers with backlists, mailing lists, and a wealth of experience tucked under their belts, and never mind trad published authors. Luckily, the us and them has settled down now, largely as a result of the price differential creating two markets.

Of course, the other side of that argument is that their is a wealth of information about now on what it take to self-publish than there was back in the old wild west days of self-publishing, when authors used to think that a book's income could be considered to last a lifetime. Maybe that misunderstanding alone, now common knowledge, has slowed down the numbers of new authors entering the market. In the early days, no one would talk of the futility they felt at not making money, only bulling up self-publishing in posts to defend the market place, in part to convince themselves to continue and that riches, or at least a full-time income was only a book away.

If we haven't already reached the point of stability as the market matures, then we can't be far off with less of a false gold rush to pump out books.

We can only do what we each feel is right for our own given circumstances and priorities.

Like I said, no data, just a feeling.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2016)

David J Normoyle said:


> That's hardly Amazon's fault, it's more to do with the number of indie writers all trying to cram into the same space. The amount of hours spent reading, the amount readers spend on books, is going to be pretty constant year on year. Yet hundreds or thousands of additional indie authors continue to break through each year, and the backlists and mailing lists of those already successful continue to grow. It means that, on average, things will continue to get harder.


The numbers certainly have an impact on getting your work noticed. But compared to 2010-2012 there are more information and tools available. At the onset of the indie explosion, we had next to nothing to go by. We made mistakes, then adjusted our approach to compensate. Only a handful of indies had gained any degree of recognition. And even those who had, found it puzzling when they tried of explain how they did it.
So what you lose due to greater numbers, you get back in the amount of practical information available, along with tools such as professional cover designers, editors, marketing specialists, etc..


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> The numbers certainly have an impact on getting your work noticed. But compared to 2010-2012 there are more information and tools available. At the onset of the indie explosion, we had next to nothing to go by. We made mistakes, then adjusted our approach to compensate. Only a handful of indies had gained any degree of recognition. And even those who had, found it puzzling when they tried of explain how they did it. So what you lose due to greater numbers, you get back in the amount of practical information available, along with tools such as professional cover designers, editors, marketing specialists, etc..


I agree with this. There are also so many more ways to climb the ladder now. Premade covers can be stunning and affordable and KU is such a big help for people starting out. There is also Kboards and places like it where Indie authors can turn to each other for advice. My new series is making 10x as much as I Bring the Fire did when I had two books out in KU back in 2012 (or whenever it was I published) I'm hardly advertising it (although, talking to more successful authors in the sci-fi genre and hearing about what they spend I'm thinking that maybe a mistake.)

Also, I don't agree that the number of Kindle readers is stagnant, I think it is growing. More and more people are discovering eReaders (not necessarily Kindles--a lot of people read their Kindle books on their iPads, tablets, or smartphones. And Kobo readers are awesome, and a small but growing market in Canada / Australia / New Zealand.) For a long time ebook readers were only super readers and tech savvy--but as the population ages I think they like eReaders MORE not less. It's so easy to adjust font and brightness. Many readers have orthopedic issues and they say a paperback is just too heavy. I actually prefer reading from a Kindle now, and don't mind reading from my smartphone--it's very convenient and not as heavy as a book (yeah, I have orthopedic issues.) I know a lot of people feel the same way.

The "fall" in eBook sales that has been reported by the media is not true -- it was based on counts of ebook sales with ISBNs -- meaning Indies didn't get counted.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

For a group of 'supportive' writers, seems some aren't very supportive.



The Dancing Squirrel said:


> There are quite a few people doing their best to be helpful in this thread, and that's great. The people offering "sharp criticism" which is not constructive are not great.


Yeah, this. *cough*first page*cough* The OP wasn't even asking for advice or 'what's wrong with my book'... all he was doing was venting. It costs nothing to cluck one's tongue and offer a cup of virtual tea. (Or bourbon.)


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Here is the truth that most hopeful authors have to face:

Anyone can write books and publish them on Amazon.

Not every book published on Amazon will be purchased and read.

The vast majority of self published authors, like most trad published authors, will not make a living writing books. An even smaller percentage will make it to bestseller status and even fewer will go on to make millions. There are 3,000+ ebooks published every day of the year. That's a lot of competition. The Author Earnings Report shows that the vast majority of authors will not make much money at self publishing. It's a sobering conclusion. The odds are high that any given author will not make much money selling their books.

How does an author defeat those odds?

Amazon has an amazing system in place to sell books. It's what they do. They have created algorithms intended to sell the right book to the right customer. The algorithms try to understand a customer's buying preferences based on their past purchases and the algorithms show them books similar to what they have purchased before. The algorithms ACTIVELY try to sell books to customers. It's how Amazon makes money (or at least, a very small percent of it) so they want to do it well.

Amazon _does_ sell books amazingly well. It is the disruptor par excellence. It sells books so well, it has gobbled up most of the eBook market and is the primary way people are getting print as well.

BUT... and there is always a but:

A new book has to find its first readers in order for Amazon's amazing algorithms to _see_ it, categorize it as something customers will want to buy. In other words, that book has to become _visible_ before those algorithms will put it in front of new potential readers (aka Amazon customers). That means that a new book has to capture some readers on its own before Amazon algorithms will start selling it.

To capture those first readers, a book needs:

1) A BANG UP COVER that is genre and category appropriate. Seriously. People _do_ judge a book by its cover so unless an author already has a big following, and can rely on existing readers to buy their book despite its cover, new authors should get a pro cover and spend as much as they can on it. There are pre-made covers for cheap if they can't afford to spend real money to get a pro cover. Yes, there are exceptions but they prove the rule. COVERS SELL BOOKS.

2) A BANG UP BLURB that hooks the reader and is appropriate to the genre and category. Taken with the cover, the blurb is the second most important part of the product page that may help a new book get its first readers. If an author doesn't know how to write a blurb, there are guides out there but the best bet is to study the bestselling books in the top 20 of the book's target category and craft a version using the book's characters and stakes and story.

3) A BANG UP PREVIEW that hooks the reader who takes the time to sample the book. Some readers buy a book based on the cover and blurb alone, especially if the price is right. Some look at the preview to check if the author can actually string words together in a coherent manner. That means, depending on the book's genre and category, getting right to the good stuff right away. The biggest killer of book sales is a slow start. Many authors spend too much time world building or opening the story. Grab the reader at the start and don't let go. Again -- make sure it is genre specific. If it's a thriller, action right away. If it's a murder mystery, a murder right away. If it's SF/SO, a battle scene in space, if it's romance, hero and heroine meet right away. Oh, and make sure to copyedit and proofread the sample. Typos in the sample are not a good sign.

4) APPROPRIATE KEYWORDS AND CATEGORIES that get the book into the proper lists and in front of the proper readers -- once it is shown to readers. This seems a no-brainer but this is all technical stuff that is necessary for books to sell on Amazon. Evenstar had a great thread on keywords, and there are books published on Amazon keywords. KNOW THY BOOK and categorize appropriately.

5) A BANG UP STORY that hooks and keeps a reader turning pages and gives them the satisfying experience (genre-appropriate of course) that they are looking for. A book is a contract between the author and reader. The reader buys the book on the assumption that they will get a certain kind of reading experience. If the author fails to provide it, the reader will put the book down, may return it, and not pick up another by that author again.

If a book has all of the above in place, the book, once released, goes into the new release lists and there are hungry Amazon customers out there searching the new release lists every morning. If they see the book, see the great cover, click on the product page based on the cover and title alone, and then if the blurb hooks them, and if they read the excerpt, if it hooks, they may buy. There are millions of people searching every day for new books and new releases. That's how a new release gets traction right out of the gate. Those Amazon customers searching for the latest release in their category.

Amazon algorithms see that a book is selling right out of the gate and takes notice. It perks up. Ahh, this book is selling itself. WE CAN SELL IT EVEN BETTER!

That's when the wonderful Amazon algorithms kick in and start showing the already-selling book to prospective customers who are most likely to buy it.

REMEMBER -- Amazon WANTS to sell books. But it isn't going to waste its time on books that won't sell, for whatever reason.

YOU, dear aspiring author, must do the work to get your book visible on Amazon. It's not easy and it's a long shot, but it is done EVERY SINGLE DAY.

EVERY SINGLE DAY, new authors are releasing new books that start selling out of the gate with little or no promotion. They have all the elements in place to ensure their book gets in front of Amazon customers looking for books like theirs.

Amazon is not a meritocracy based on literary quality. It is a market based on what customers want to spend their hard-earned money on. If a book does not appeal to those customers, for whatever reason, they will not buy it and Amazon will not try to sell it.

Make sure your book is appealing to Amazon customers.

Cover. Blurb. Categories and Keywords. Preview. Product quality aka a cracking good story and characters.

I would also advise sending your book out to reviewers in your genre. This involves some legwork on your part and is time-consuming, but if you send out review copies, you will get reviews eventually, if your book is good enough, and that will help. It's social proof that your book is good enough (or bad enough) for people to take the time to review. There are also places to advertise your book for cheap that will help get eyeballs on your book at first. If you have the money, I would advise placing a few less expensive ads to help grease the wheels and get Amazon to take notice, but make sure they are reputable.

Then, write the next darn book, because an author can never write fast enough to keep readers satisfied. Except Amanda.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

At the risk of beating a dead horse, indie publishing is a business.

Authors are producers in search of customers. Their products succeed or fail based on visibility and demand. A book that fails to sell is lacking in either (and perhaps both) factors. It's true for any product.

Amazon offers authors shelf space for a cut of each sale. There's only so much prime shelf space to go around. Understandably, Amazon gives it to authors whose products move. 

Is Amazon responsible for giving authors visibility? No. 

Is Amazon responsible for creating demand for authors' products? No.

Amazon offers shelf space. That's where its contractual obligation ends. Of course, like the weekly circulars distributed by your local grocery store, Amazon will advertise hot-selling products. But if your product is a dud - that is, it lacks visibility and/or demand - Amazon won't promote it. That's understandable. It's a business, not a charity.

This is similar to how Google works. Google ranks pages according to popularity with its users. The top 10 results for any given query - that is, its limited shelf space - are filled with pages Google believes will deliver the best experience to its users. Pages that are duds - high bounce rates, no authoritative links, few social signals, etc. - are driven to the bowels of its index.

Amazon treats books in the same manner. It'd be silly not to.



eta: what Sela said.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Jena H said:


> For a group of 'supportive' writers, seems some aren't very supportive.
> Yeah, this. *cough*first page*cough* The OP wasn't even asking for advice or 'what's wrong with my book'... all he was doing was venting. It costs nothing to cluck one's tongue and offer a cup of virtual tea. (Or bourbon.)


Yes. But.

The nature of kboards is that those who help, will try to, which means vents get advise, asked for or not. Those who critique will also do so. Those who react to vents will counter vent.

This is all perfectly normal here and anyone who reads this place should know that.

The one thing we do well here is flog a dead horse. 

Venting about anything here isn't really a good idea. If you dont want help, critique, advise, or counter venting, one shouldn't post new threads venting.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jena H said:


> For a group of 'supportive' writers, seems some aren't very supportive.
> Yeah, this. *cough*first page*cough* The OP wasn't even asking for advice or 'what's wrong with my book'... all he was doing was venting. It costs nothing to cluck one's tongue and offer a cup of virtual tea. (Or bourbon.)


It's great to commiserate. It's even better to offer useful advice in a neutral way. People, including the OP, are free to take it or ignore it. Sometimes people feel compelled to correct mistaken assumptions. There's nothing wrong with that. This is a discussion forum, after all, but it should be done in a neutral rather than sarcastic or insulting or demeaning manner. That's just being a decent human.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

And here I thought I was being restrained not reacting to being called a . . . well. You know. 

(Yes, people DO sell well out of the gate without artificial help. It's not impossible, it's just lucky and unlikely.) 

And Sela's post a few up is golden, for anybody reading. Great stuff.


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## AisFor (Jul 24, 2014)

Sela said:


> It's great to commiserate. It's even better to offer useful advice in a neutral way. People, including the OP, are free to take it or ignore it. Sometimes people feel compelled to correct mistaken assumptions. There's nothing wrong with that. This is a discussion forum, after all, but it should be done in a neutral rather than sarcastic or insulting or demeaning manner. That's just being a decent human.


I like this a lot. And I hope the OP takes Sela up on her extremely generous offer.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

TimothyEllis said:


> The one thing we do well here is flog a dead horse.


True.



TimothyEllis said:


> Venting about anything here isn't really a good idea. If you dont want help, critique, advise, or counter venting, one shouldn't post new threads venting.


If a writer can't come to a "writer's cafe" to blow off steam with other writers--about writing--then where? Even when given in the right spirit, unsolicited advice is still that--unsolicited--and not always helpful.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> Venting about anything here isn't really a good idea. If you dont want help, critique, advise, or counter venting, one shouldn't post new threads venting.


In this case, I don't think it's the venting that has riled the natives. Indeed, many past threads have shown that venting can stimulate sympathy...

... if it's presented in the right way.

For example, "_Geez, my books don't sell. I'm thinking of moving on. Anyone feel the same?_"

By contrast, the gist of the OP's initial post seems to be "_Geez, my books don't sell because Amazon isn't living up to its end of the bargain._" I think folks inferred that message (with good reason) and thought, "_Whoa. Wait a second. Saying Amazon is to blame seems like an unwillingness to take responsibility._"


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jena H said:


> True.
> 
> If a writer can't come to a "writer's cafe" to blow off steam with other writers--about writing--then where? Even when given in the right spirit, unsolicited advice is still that--unsolicited--and not always helpful.


I agree that authors should be able to vent and other authors should commiserate. We all have bad days.

However, when the OP makes a lot of unsubstantiated claims, rather than just complaints, it invites people to respond if they disagree. The OP made a lot of statements that many of us disagree with. It would be a disservice to others to let those stand without countering them. My view is that you can and should counter those mistaken assumptions or inaccurate statements in a neutral way rather than in a harsh or demeaning way.

My view is also that when an author makes a huge post about throwing in the towel, it is a cry for help rather than just venting. I can't ignore that, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should have just raised my beer glass and said, RIGHT ON IT SUCKS AND IT'S RIGGED AGAINST YOU SO GIVE UP.

*shrug*


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

_*"The one thing we do well here is flog a dead horse.  "
*_
If anyone, anyone! dares put up a gif to illustrate Timothy's words, I'm going to cry! 

Sela, your post was exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you.


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## bnapier (Apr 26, 2010)

Here's what I saw...and I'm not selling too great either, so take this with a tiny little grain of salt..

I see red flags whenever I see authors talk more about systems and algorithms than their writing. Look...full disclosure: I hate marketing. I had blogging. I hate all of that. I'm a writer because I enjoy writing. If I wanted to get into marketing and adverting, I would have gone that route in college. Yes, I get that they go hand in hand with self-publishing BUT...

all that to day this: I think some writers that focus more on those things rather than the writing and love FOR writing, might very well be doomed anyway. Of course, I am well aware that there are so-so folks churning out subpar books over and over again and making 5-6 figures a month. And they can do this not because they are great writers, but great at marketing. This, to me (a writer plugging away for 12+ years), is maddening.

Yeesh..I kind of went on my own rant there. But yeah...if the passion for writing is smaller than the interest in marketing/advertising, I personally think it can often be a lost cause.


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

Maybe you should have spent more time on this board.  Five years seems a long time to go without trying the permafree strategy for first books in your various series.  It's a strategy that has been well described, advocated and has proven successful for many authors here.

Also, you complain that you have been unable to get your books into your preferred categories.  How to do that has also been well described here over the years - basically, you message KDP and nag them until they eventually put your books where you want them.  I try to get my books into at least 12 suitable sub-categories and always succeed when I persist.

That said, I am not a runaway success and may one day come to the same conclusion as you.  Do try the permafree strategy and getting your books categorized properly though, and best of luck with it.

Philip


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

bnapier said:


> Here's what I saw...and I'm not selling too great either, so take this with a tiny little grain of salt..
> 
> I see red flags whenever I see authors talk more about systems and algorithms than their writing. Look...full disclosure: I hate marketing. I had blogging. I hate all of that. I'm a writer because I enjoy writing. If I wanted to get into marketing and adverting, I would have gone that route in college. Yes, I get that they go hand in hand with self-publishing BUT...
> 
> ...


I assume that an author has written a book they care about. Once they do, once that have that book written and edited and ready to publish, they have to think about their goals for that book.

Everyone -- everyone -- who can write can write a book.

If you want to write your book for love of writing and don't care about being read or making money or making a living as a published author, great! You have done what most humans never accomplish. You have written a book. Congratulations! You have expressed yourself in an artistic pursuit and that is one of the greatest experiences a human can have.

If you want to write that book and you also want it to be read by actual people, and you don't care about making money or making a living as a published author, great! You can post your book online at Wattpad or on your blog, or any number of places where people may run into it and read it for free. Congratulations! You have written a book and it is being read. That is great.

If you want to write that book and you want it to be read and _you want to make money selling it_, but you don't care about making a living as a published author, great! You can write your book, publish your book at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, iBooks and Google Play and you can hope to sell it.

Even if you only want to make a bit of money, part-time money, now is when the marketing part comes in.

Why?

Because Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, iBooks and Google Play are all markets.

They sell products. They have customers. Selling products to their customers and making money requires some degree of marketing. It's really that simple. Not rocket science and it doesn't have to take up all your time. In fact, it should take up really very little of your time. Writing your book should take up the most time because it is the reason you want to be a writer. Writing. 

If -- and this is a big if -- you want to write books, you want them to be read, and you want to make a living as an author, you have to approach it more like a business. Is your product something in demand? If you ramp up production, can you make a living writing books? Is there a match between your tastes and the market and can you reach your potential customers?

It used to be that a lot of the business side of things was done by the publishing houses. Not all of it, but a lot of the business stuff. Authors wrote, submitted books, edited books, and did some promotion. The business stuff was the realm of the publishing houses.

With self publishing, authors are both writer and publisher. We have to wear both hats. If we want to make a living at writing books, we have to make sure we understand the business.

Know thyself, author. Know what you want from this and act accordingly.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

I understand your frustration. I've been there. Trust me. It sucks, but if you're not quite ready to give up here is some advice that worked for me...

Well, you could test out a few things (but be patient and give it at least 6 weeks to see results), like new covers, revising the blurbs, changing the keywords, and focusing on a target readership. I did this once about a year ago and saw a boost in sales.

Guest posts on blogs are a great way to reach a wider audience. Book blog tours can be helpful. Book bloggers should become your best friends. Start creating a list of bloggers that will host a guest post or review your book(s). To find bloggers in your genre you can go to sites:
http://bookbloggerdirectory.wordpress.com or http://www.blogmetrics.org And check out Blog Nation, Book Blogger Directory, The Book Blogger List, and BookLook Bloggers to find active bloggers who are seeking indie stories.

A BookBub ad would work, if you're lucky enough to get one.

Have you considered (as I think others have suggested) lengthening one of the shorts to a full-length novel?

Are you chatty on Facebook? I mean, not just doing promos but actually talking to readers? And on your author Facebook page, marketing studies have proven that posting an image or photo along with EVERY post will get you more *likes* and interest. Make sure your FB page is linked to your Twitter account, too so you can cross-promote on both of these sites.

Do you have a blog where you post about your life, or offer advice on writing? That could attract potential readers.

Sign up for BUCK BOOKS: http://buckbooks.net/buck-books-promotions it is free and reaches a large email readership. In order to run a promotion with them, you don't have to pay anything, but you do have to agree to tell others about their service by either sending out a tweet or FB post and signing up for their affiliate account. A lot of authors have had success with BOOK GORILLA: http://www.bookgorilla.com/advertise which costs $40 a promotion.

You could post a few chapters on wattpad to entice readers to try your books with a request at the end of each chapter or placed at the end of the free sample to read the rest of the book. Wattpad is a community of more than 35 million users who are writing, reading, and sharing stories--all for free. Want to share a short story that is tangential to your novel? Or tempt readers with an excerpt from your upcoming book? This might be the platform for you.

If you have not read this yet, it is full of awesome advice. Link: http://russellblake.com/how-to-sell-loads-of-books

This book is for authors who want to sell more books, but it's also for those writers who want to think more like an entrepreneur: http://www.thecreativepenn.com/howtomarketabook/

_I wish you much success!_ 
~S


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

There's certainly a place for sympathy, for saying "there, there" and handing someone a virtual cup of tea. Because yeah, we all have rotten days when we feel like failures and want to quit. But time and again in the year that I've been on kboards, I've seen other authors start with a complaint and be given the "hey buddy, buck up, it's okay, just write another book!" pep talk by a dozen kindly writers, only to get maybe a page or two into the discussion and realize that, holy smokes!, there's a real problem here. The author said their KU reads had dried up and lo and behold, you click on their book and it doesn't appear to be enrolled in KU! The book's categories are totally wrong! The "Look Inside" formatting appears to be gibberish! Sometimes it is more helpful to drill down to find the cause of a problem rather than only offering sympathy.

It's certainly true that not every book will succeed, and that doesn't mean it's a bad book. (And it's true that some books exceed expectations, and that doesn't mean those of us who do better than average are in cahoots with "Big Book", or are lying about our journeys). But it's also true that often, if an author's work doesn't at least make a modest showing after an extraordinary effort (and I think a publication per month for 5 1/2 years qualifies as extraordinary effort), there's something worth investigating. And yes, it's best if that investigation is done politely, but just shrugging and saying "that's a real bummer" might not be the kindest response, even if it is the most likely to spare feelings.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

CarlaBaku said:


> Getting mired in conspiracy theories or suggesting that some of the success stories on Kboards can't possibly be true is never going to advance my career...


This ^

A long time ago, I realised that when life/goals weren't going the way I wanted, I had two options. 
1. I could sit back and make myself a victim by blaming external factors. Like saying it's luck, or that selling is random, Amazon is rigged against me... Those thoughts put you in a negative mind set, you dwell on things you cannot control and sulk waiting for someone else to "fix" what you perceive as wrong.

2. I could look at factors I could control/influence and do something about the situation. With the publishing business that means looking critically at your craft. Your chosen genre. The way you write (length, POV etc). Then cover, blurb, marketing. Those are all things you can direct to give your books the best chance of succeeding.

Personally I prefer to take control of my career and steer the ship. Some people prefer to vent, whine, complain, and do nothing. *shrug* it's up to you how you want to approach the issue.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I haven't read all these posts, so forgive me if this topic has already been covered.

I don't see the point in pulling your books from Amazon. I can understand not spending money and effort promoting books on Amazon, but why yank them off the Amazon shelves? You can go wide and concentrate marketing on those arenas.

My books sell much better wide than they do on Amazon via KDP. But I don't do any marketing other than having a small mailing list to announce releases. I've slowed my writing, though. Not because books aren't selling (some are, some aren't) but because I got bored with it and have other things to do and not enough time to do it all. (And probably not enough time left.) So, it's the back burner for the fiction. That's my version of "hanging it up." I'll be back, though, and I won't let my hangup burn bridges before that. That's never a good idea.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Tommy Muncie (Dec 8, 2014)

AliceW said:


> Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.


I know it's off-topic, but I liked that so much I write it down in my notebook, then decided that wasn't good enough and found a place for it in my WiP.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

C. Gockel said:


> Many readers have orthopedic issues and they say a paperback is just too heavy. I actually prefer reading from a Kindle now, and don't mind reading from my smartphone--it's very convenient and not as heavy as a book (yeah, I have orthopedic issues.) I know a lot of people feel the same way.


Very true. I don't have orthopedic issues so much anymore but I have fibromyalgia, and yes, sometimes it DOES hurt too much to hold a book and turn a page. Sometimes it even hurts to much to twitch a finger on the kindle touchscreen propped up on my chest and turn a page, but it's not nearly as much of a problem. My mom had to give up reading for almost a year (we all almost killed each other; it was horrible. I was so glad to have a mountain range in between us) because of carpal tunnel syndrome.

With the kindle I occasionally bonk myself in the head with it when I'm reading and fall asleep but that's about it.



Rosalind J said:


> And here I thought I was being restrained not reacting to being called a . . . well. You know.
> 
> (Yes, people DO sell well out of the gate without artificial help. It's not impossible, it's just lucky and unlikely.)


You absolutely WERE restrained (I was kind of hoping you hadn't seen it). I read it four times thinking, "He's... not saying what I think he's saying, is he??"

With ~7 billion people on Earth, a "one-in-a-million" stroke of good luck is going to happen to *seven thousand people*. 
Why not you? (impersonal you)



MMacLeod said:


> There's certainly a place for sympathy, for saying "there, there" and handing someone a virtual cup of tea. Because yeah, we all have rotten days when we feel like failures and want to quit. But time and again in the year that I've been on kboards, I've seen other authors start with a complaint and be given the "hey buddy, buck up, it's okay, just write another book!" pep talk by a dozen kindly writers, only to get maybe a page or two into the discussion and realize that, holy smokes!, there's a real problem here. The author said their KU reads had dried up and lo and behold, you click on their book and it doesn't appear to be enrolled in KU! The book's categories are totally wrong! The "Look Inside" formatting appears to be gibberish! Sometimes it is more helpful to drill down to find the cause of a problem rather than only offering sympathy.
> 
> ...just shrugging and saying "that's a real bummer" might not be the kindest response, even if it is the most likely to spare feelings.


I know they say the urge to "fix it" when someone complains is a male trait, but it's one I share too. I might be the world's worst listener, because when someone says "Thus and such is bothering me," I tend to start peppering them with questions and taking notes to make my plan of action on how We Are Going To Fix This. (It's interesting that I can't do this for myself.) As someone who suffers from depression, I try to remember that sometimes a person's perception of a thing is skewed, but they're still _suffering_ with it. Why not be kind?

BUT from my own perspective, when I complain to someone, especially if it's something bothering me enough to write a lengthy post about it, yeah, I want a little bit of sympathy but I also REALLY want someone who's smarter or stronger or more experienced than me to step in, give me a little pat on the shoulder and maybe a there-there, and then say, "All right, here's how we're going to do this. Now listen up!" Then not only is my original problem solved, but now I have witnessed/experienced/learned some problem-solving skills of my own.

tl;dr - Wouldn't most of us rather have a solution so we didn't _have_ a problem any more, than have unlimited amounts of sympathy _for_ the problem?


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## mojomikey (Apr 9, 2014)

SerenityEditing said:


> BUT from my own perspective, when I complain to someone, especially if it's something bothering me enough to write a lengthy post about it, yeah, I want a little bit of sympathy but I also REALLY want someone who's smarter or stronger or more experienced than me to step in, give me a little pat on the shoulder and maybe a there-there, and then say, "All right, here's how we're going to do this. Now listen up!" Then not only is my original problem solved, but now I have witnessed/experienced/learned some problem-solving skills of my own.
> 
> tl;dr - Wouldn't most of us rather have a solution so we didn't _have_ a problem any more, than have unlimited amounts of sympathy _for_ the problem?


This. It's so true for me. For 3/4 of my life, I've been a firefighter, more than half my life, a lieutenant on the fire dept. I am the first officer on scene. You called me, you have a problem. Let's fix it.

Some ex-girlfriends don't like this "let's fix it" attitude. But it's in my DNA. I see a problem, I need to fix it. if you just want to vent, I'm not the guy.

Lotsa helpful advice for OP on this thread. Like someone said, thousands of dollars worth. I know I've learned a lot just reading through the responses. You never know it all.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Not quoting in response to Sela, so much as she picked up points I was going to write anyway:



Sela said:


> I agree that authors should be able to vent and other authors should commiserate. We all have bad days.
> 
> *I agree! And people have commiserated with the OP. That's what's had me shaking my head at some of the responses. No hating done, just a bit of advice and some tough love when the OP kept insisting it wasn't him, it was Amazon.*
> 
> ...


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I've tried not to mention Amazon in my posts on here in relation to the OPs misgivings, but I'm sure they had good intentions in the way they marketed to authors when they opened the doors. In fairness to the OP, for the amount of time he's been publishing with Amazon Kindle, he will have been frustrated many times with the changes they have made that have impacted his short story publishing. In Amazon's defense, they  couldn't have foreseen was the extent to which eBooks made an impact in the market place, though they obviously hoped to gain some market share of the book reading market as a disrupter to the status quo. 

Amazon have and do market for us in so many ways to harness our own hard word, but on many occasions they have had to step in to save us from ourselves, as well as to manage customer expectations, and their own business objectives, so that exactly what Amazon do for us has evolved to bring stability to the market. Unfortunately this has had an affect on some incomes and upset the strategic plans of others. This was true of the past, and it will be the same in the future as they tweak algos, services, and visibility to match their business plans, and to improve customer expectations.

To give some examples, when Amazon set the current royalty structure, it is clear where they wanted the pricing of self-published books to be, the same with trad published books at the higher end of the royalty scale, with $2.99 to $9.99 and anything above or below  penalized as far as % of royalties. Many established authors now consider $2.99 the norm, but many forget, or are not aware of the downward spiral, when 99c became the norm, and then free became the norm in the battle for readership and recognition. No one was making any money except for the ones that got in first with the 99c price point. Then Amazon stepped in to create order, especially with the availability of free. I don't think I need to spell out their efforts in this regard, but it worked, while creating casualties inside and outside Amazon. That free battle isn't over yet and I expect yet more changes.

Bear in mind the OP writes short stories. 

Putting a first book in a series as free isn't always set in stone  and could disappear tomorrow if Amazon chose to, if they decide the market is becoming too saturated with them. They did it to me when they reverted a short of mine paid that enticed people to buy 300 per month of my collection and I never recovered paid sales on that book afterward once it lost rank, even though I managed to get the short free again. I've seen others mention it has happened to them also.

We all saw what happened when KU 1 opened its doors regarding short stories and how they had to change the royalty structure when KU became saturated with short stories and could have led to its demise with subscribers losing interest.

Look at the changes they and others made to the visibility of erotica short stories. Many lost out on what had been a gravy train.

All I wanted to say really is take it while it's there if you are making money, but beware of bandwagons, and be prepared to make changes as low balls  are thrown at you. Nothing is forever in business or we'd all still be driving Ford Model Ts


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## Lefevre (Feb 1, 2014)

This may not be what you want to hear, but....

Whether you decide to unpublish or not, never forget why you started writing (and got an English degree) in the first place. No offense, but an English degree is not what you get if you are interested in money, you obviously like writing. (Writing a library of books is proof) If writing is a chore, then stop immediately. If it is fun and something you enjoy then forgetaboutit and quit obsessing over fantasy or expectations and just go write with a spotless mind. At least when the carnival is over you will still be happy.


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## Goulburn (May 21, 2014)

Hi, Phil, thank you for sharing.

It sounds as if you need some long service leave to refresh your spirit. Have you considered putting some of your work with a structure editor while you take a break from writing and read more books? You could leave things published and just take a refresher break. Iv'e basically done that. I had to announce that I'm taking a break from novel writing. To follow other fields of study (true) is my official line to those I don't wish to tell the personal (family health issues)  reason why I've temporarily stopped writing novels. After a break, after any contribution circumstances sort themselves out, if you are a writer, your passion will return with a clearer insight. Periods of discouragement are a part of the writing business.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

The Amazon algos are actually pretty straightforward. It's all in the fantastic book Let's Get Visible.

They don't favor authors. They favor books that sell. That makes it hard to get going, but it's not unfair.


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## RedAlert (May 15, 2015)

I also read what the OP said about the successful-out-of-the-gate author, and I was  mortified.  Why attack someone who shared her story?  She didn't have to do that, buck people up with a story of success.  She didn't have to do that, and look what she got.

One difference between the two of you is that you seem bitter, whereas she is very social.  I mean, absolutely dude, I didn't care about your problems after reading that bit from you.  All these people, practically burping you...I'd say one of your major problems is arrogance.  Take a step back and "listen to those that know."

And, don't take shots at other authors.  Have a little respect.  If you don't like them, say nothing.  You aren't required to like them, but why run them off from those that do?  Didja think that no one would know who you were talking about??


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I'm still confused how this is Amazon's fault.


Just about to say the same. I must say I am mystified at the insinuation that, because the OP has had no success, the people who declare that they have must be lying. Being an English graduate does not necessarily make one a good writer of fiction; in fact it can sometimes have the opposite affect.

Still, it is a refreshing change from the one or two authors who insist on posting about how clever and wealthy they are.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

I've been following this thread closely and although some bomb information has been given, I'd just like to say to the OP that giving up isn't part of the solution. It's clear that you love writing fiction. You even teach it. So given that, what would you say to one of your students having similar struggles in publication? This is a wonderful opportunity to take all the advice given here (which is mighty gold btw), put it to practice, grow as a person and in business, and then have a lesson-learned attitude to share with your students about perseverance and achieving your dreams.

It's totally okay that you're bummed and venting. I get it. Back in the spring, I pulled down my shorts. They weren't selling...like, AT ALL. Some authors are able to do just fine with them, but my main problems were: crappy covers, lame blurbs, piss poor editing, and writing romance stories not structured as romance stories. I had to take a real hard look at what I was doing--wasting my time. Writing is hard work and it sucks having to face the reality of not selling, but there is always, always, another way. Since then, I've done my best to rectify my mistakes by getting a good cover artist, professional editing, proper blurbs, etc. I'll be launching again this winter with a much better approach, a professional one. 

One thing that stood out to me is that you mentioned making your own covers. Without any links none of us can really steer you. Are those covers genre appropriate? Are they professional looking? Properly edited? Etc? I can understand wanting to keep anonymous but coming here for help without being vulnerable might not be entirely a good idea. You can spend time writing novels in a series and still be doing other things wrong that none of us can help you with. If you want to do it right, then you're going to have to trust that others here will tell you what you need to hear in order to do better. I had to hear it and it suuuucked. But you know what? I'm glad that I asked because it's better to spend your time working on books that have a shot. Good luck.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

bnapier said:


> Here's what I saw...and I'm not selling too great either, so take this with a tiny little grain of salt..
> 
> I see red flags whenever I see authors talk more about systems and algorithms than their writing. Look...full disclosure: I hate marketing. I had blogging. I hate all of that. I'm a writer because I enjoy writing. If I wanted to get into marketing and adverting, I would have gone that route in college. Yes, I get that they go hand in hand with self-publishing BUT...
> 
> ...


I think we were separated at birth, dude haha. That's exactly how I feel about it. Marketing sucks. I do it because I have to but I'm all about the stories.


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## sophia ann (Jul 9, 2014)

Honestly in my experience, the while publish within 60 days thing is a load of crap.  Take as long as you want to publish!
Another thing is that you sound like you want to give up on writing, just that you’re getting the results you want on Amazon. So go wide.
Loads of authors get better results by going wide, and then just keep trying to advertise.  Bigger advertising sites might accept your book if its available through more markets. 
Just my thoughts though


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## smanaher (Dec 2, 2013)

Ever hear about the 3 feet from gold story?

I hope this isn't you and you are giving up just before you find success!










Tweak what you have and keep going my friend! You never know who needs to read your work.


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## Tegan Maher (Aug 22, 2016)

justphil said:


> *My books are technically fine. I have an English degree. I'm academically qualified to teach creative writing so I can state with confidence I have no grammar, vocabulary, spelling or punctuation problems. I'm also an experienced programmer, and I hand-code both mobi and (validated) epub versions of every book I publish, so it's not a formatting issue either.
> *


*

Maybe you use an editor and non-biased beta readers, but this statement leads me to believe that maybe you don't. Technical issues aren't the only reason that a book may fail. I have a degree in English with a minor in creative writing, but I still use an editor and beta readers because they point out problems with the actual story in addition to technical errors that I may miss. Of course I think my own writing is good, but I'm prejudiced. I can't view my work objectively and I understand that. I'm not precious with my words; if my book can be better, I want to know about it.

Maybe for you, that's not the biggest issue, though. Since you aren't selling anything at all, that leads me think that maybe your blurbs or covers aren't enticing. I know that as a reader, I'm not going to hit the "look inside" button if the blurb doesn't grab me, and I typically don't even read the blurb if the cover doesn't catch my eye. To relate it to real life, no matter how great a house is on the inside, if the shutters are falling off and the paint is peeling, I'm not going to step through the door.

I understand why you don't post your books, but without anything to go on, I'm not sure what else to say. I know many people who have had a relatively successful launch with first books without throwing a ton of money into advertising, so it's definitely possible.

Good luck.*


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Life is too short to waste doing something that doesn't give you joy.

I tend to agree with the OP that there are some way that Amazon has "rigged" things against indie authors, one of the main ones being having to compete against the Amazon imprints. That's clearly not a level playing field. Another thing that I really take umbrage with is the way that the algos cause popular but only peripherally related titles to dominate the small categories. That's creating a bad reader experience and it wouldn't take much time or effort to check that, or many of the other human-based QC checks that have been repeatedly pointed out on this board.  The dependence of sales on paid ad platforms which are not really providing an independent discovery or search capability isn't very healthy, and there is still a fair amount of what's probably fake sales and borrows in the store. Overall I don't think that Amazon acts maliciously but the trends we are seeing are a natural outgrowth of the framework we find ourselves in.

I find myself sort of in the same boat which is why I've concentrated on audio and print.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

Aw, Phil. I'm sorry you're so frustrated.

Without seeing your covers, blurbs, and excerpts, it's hard to really dig in. However, I agree with what others have said: your work may just be too short. Which, I know, seems totally counterproductive. Most people are busy and have short attention spans. This is true. But I think the majority of readers still really enjoy sinking into a full-length novel and even a series that they can pick up and put down at their own pace. It's really hard to gain traction with serials, short stories, novellas. Not impossible, but hard. I've been there.

What worked for me was putting aside writing shorter works. I combined my trilogy of novellas into a standalone novel and my six-book series of novelettes into a prequel novel for a series. Since then, I've been focusing on completing that series. I made Book 1 permafree and did a little advertising. It sells about 10 copies a day on average, unless I've advertised. And I'm starting to see some sell through of Books 2 and 3.

It's important to note that I'm wide; KU seems to work really well for some people and not so much for others. Don't beat yourself up. You tried it, and that's all you can do.

I suggest you look at your catalog and examine where you can combine shorter works into longer novels. See if you can rearrange those shorter works into a series of novels. Go wide. Google Play's doors as still closed, I think, but many authors -- myself included -- do great in the Kobo, iBooks, and Nook stores, too. Make the firsts in your various series permafree. (Use Draft2Digital to distribute your free first in series to Nook.)

Then, once you've done all that, take a look at your Amazon keywords. You may find this post really helpful: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,205816.0.html Tweaking my keywords was a game changer for me.

Work on building an email list. Is there a call to action at the end of your books for people to sign up? It may be that, when readers do find your books, they have nowhere else to go. Not everyone is savvy enough to leave their Kindle app and pop over to Amazon to look you up. Some people are simply too busy for all that and will close your book and move on without a CTA. Offer a free book as an incentive or, heck, use one of your shorter works as an email list exclusive.

KU doesn't work for everyone. My work wife, who writes similar books to mine, is kicking butt in KU. Meanwhile I've never been able to gain traction there. I do great in the Kobo store with their promotions, but she can't seem to get them to accept her books. Everyone is different, and there often isn't a rhyme or reason to why one author does well in one store while another author flounders. But it's totally okay.

Take the weekend off. Fill your well with non-writing related things that you love. Sleep in. Then, on Monday, come back to your desk refreshed.


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## CopperDog (Sep 17, 2014)

Sela said:


> It's great to commiserate. It's even better to offer useful advice in a neutral way. People, including the OP, are free to take it or ignore it. Sometimes people feel compelled to correct mistaken assumptions. There's nothing wrong with that. This is a discussion forum, after all, but it should be done in a neutral rather than sarcastic or insulting or demeaning manner. That's just being a decent human.


^^^This is golden. As are many of the previous responses to the writer who created this thread. These words are worthwhile because whether or not the OP takes the advice, there are countless silent noobs like me who are reading these words of wisdom and trying to take them to heart to shorten the learning curve and, hopefully, increase the odds of success.


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## Gisele_1169 (Feb 16, 2016)

AliceW said:


> A long time ago, I realised that when life/goals weren't going the way I wanted, I had two options.
> 1. I could sit back and make myself a victim by blaming external factors. Like saying it's luck, or that selling is random, Amazon is rigged against me... Those thoughts put you in a negative mind set, you dwell on things you cannot control and sulk waiting for someone else to "fix" what you perceive as wrong.
> 
> Personally I prefer to take control of my career and steer the ship. Some people prefer to vent, whine, complain, and do nothing. *shrug* it's up to you how you want to approach the issue.


I think this is key! Mind set is SO important.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Beautiful post, Link5. Thank you for saying it. So true! 



Link5 said:


> Giving up _is_ a solution.
> 
> Giving up can open the way to finding something else that is even better. Giving up, while it sucks and hurts and feels horrible, can be good.
> 
> ...


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

I also agree with Link5. There is nothing wrong with turning away from a place where you tried and failed to find satisfying success. If the work, the journey, no longer brings you joy, by all means, take a hard right and look elsewhere for a new purpose. No shame in that!

There's no point--that I can see--in becoming a zombie writer.


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## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

So far, this has been an excellent discussion on issues that are at the heart of many writers' frustrations. If it was a debate at any writers festival of any note, it'd be a winner. I wanted to acknowledge the contributions and opinions of everyone involved regardless of which side of the fence you sit.


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## RecluseRaconteur (Apr 11, 2015)

Maybe if you posted your books, people here could spot errors you are making. I'm not trying to assume anything, but I learned the hard way that Kindle readers really like to see professionalism in author's covers and blurbs before they even think about looking inside their books. Being self-published doesn't matter to most of them so long as you look professional. A brilliant book with an awful cover and blurb won't sell unless you pay a million bucks in ads, even then who knows. A good cover, on the other hand, can make a crappy book sell tons. Don't be afraid to post your books here. I often make posts asking for advice on odd topics, and there's a lot of friendly people here that will take a few minutes to assist. Perhaps all you need is two really powerful tips that will turn your tables around. Watch out for flying cutlery.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2016)

My husband broke the Amazon model down like this: Amazon is a retail store wherein if you want to be displayed in premium places-which is limited, btw--then you've got to bring your best and be willing to pay and do more than the other guy. Or, he said, "You can be like that boy scout, and peddle to the people going in."

I think Prince Charming nailed it.


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## Michael Alan Peck (May 8, 2013)

Graeme Hague said:


> So far, this has been an excellent discussion on issues that are at the heart of many writers' frustrations. If it was a debate at any writers festival of any note, it'd be a winner. I wanted to acknowledge the contributions and opinions of everyone involved regardless of which side of the fence you sit.


Agreed. Thank you, all.


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## Pam771771 (Sep 24, 2016)

justphil said:


> You might be right, but Amazon demands a new material every 30-90 days, and I can't write 110,000 words at an acceptable quality level sustainably on that schedule.


Hi, I'm new to this forum and haven't actually published a book yet (but I am currently writing Book 2 of a Novella Trilogy and hope to publish in October). Anyway I've been doing a lot of research on Amazon self publishing and as I am writing because I enjoy it and not to make money (that would just be a bonus) I think this is the route for me.

But this post has worried me, can anyone please shed some light on what justphil means by Amazon demands a new material every 30-90 days please. I just write in my spare time and at the moment it could be months between books!!

Thanks in Advance


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Pam771771 said:


> But this post has worried me, can anyone please shed some light on what justphil means by Amazon demands a new material every 30-90 days please. I just write in my spare time and at the moment it could be months between books!!


He means that visibility, which can lead to increased sales, is easier to achieve with more frequent publication. As you explore KBoards, you'll find frequent references to 30, 60, and 90 day cliffs....those are the points at which Amazon's algorithms no longer provide "new book" support. Many writers see a sharp fall off in sales at those points. Authors who publish more frequently can more easily keep their books afloat by having new material out. Amazon does NOT require that you publish that frequently. It just stops providing the extra support if you don't.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Pam771771 said:


> But this post has worried me, can anyone please shed some light on what justphil means by Amazon demands a new material every 30-90 days please. I just write in my spare time and at the moment it could be months between books!!


When you release your book, it goes onto the new release list for each sub-category you can get the book into. The position on the list is determined by your launch marketing. So mailing list, FB, twitter, Instagram- whatever you can do to let people know the book is out, gives you first days sales, and first/second days reads if you go in select. The higher the new release list you debut on, the better the following days sales are.

At 30 days, your book drops off the new release lists regardless of how well it did. So unless you're author rank is really good, or the book is really selling and/or reading well, there is an immediate fall off. From there, the downward spiral is measurable.

If you release again at 30 days after the last one, you never drop off the new release lists, and the momentum you gained on the first book carries through to the next, and keeps building. And so on.

As soon as you drop off the lists though, you slowly lose momentum, with it being an exponential drop over the next couple of months. There is another drop at 60 days, as you drop off other lists. And what they call the 90 days cliff, when you drop off most lists, seems to be happening now at 75-80 days, instead of 90.

Amazon doesn't demand anything, but they reward the productive writer, by keeping them as visible as the author can make themselves with each release.

KU rewards longer books, especially if you get full reads most of the time.

There is no problem writing in the 90 to 180 day bracket, but you need more launch for each book to renew the momentum each time you release. And there are plenty of authors here doing that.


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## Peter Spenser (Jan 26, 2012)

TimothyEllis said:


> When you release your book, it goes onto the new release list for each sub-category you can get the book into. The position on the list is determined by your launch marketing. So mailing list, FB, twitter, Instagram- whatever you can do to let people know the book is out, gives you first days sales, and first/second days reads if you go in select. The higher the new release list you debut on, the better the following days sales are.
> 
> At 30 days, your book drops off the new release lists regardless of how well it did. So unless you're author rank is really good, or the book is really selling and/or reading well, there is an immediate fall off. From there, the downward spiral is measurable.
> 
> ...


This is the first clear, complete, and cogent explanation of this that I have ever seen.

Thank you!


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Peter Spenser said:


> This is the first clear, complete, and cogent explanation of this that I have ever seen.
> Thank you!


You're welcome. 

Here's something I wrote on Quora yesterday. It might be interesting for you as well.
https://www.quora.com/How-does-one-succeed-as-a-writer-for-Kindle-books/answer/Timothy-Ellis-4?__snid3__=363306277&__nsrc__=4


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

My mistake, as it turns out, was believing I could have it both ways. I wrote short works to maintain a release schedule that guaranteed my works were never out of the new releases list (at one point I was averaging five books every four weeks). I bundled those works to get the higher royalties and the readers who preferred longer books. It's one of those plans that looks great on paper and should have worked.

But the market being what it is, I didn't know readers would not only reject the shorter works because they weren't novels, but that they would also reject (wholesale and with a ruthlessness that would have made Genghis Khan drop to a knee and weep) _everything else I published_. Apparently it is not possible to remove the stench of "too short" from any work in which it appears. So that leaves me with a smoking pile of worthless rubble where my portfolio of published work used to be, and presents me with the choice between sitting down to write another 300,000 words of original material (in a "my house is on fire" hurry) or facing complete failure.

I have a book right now that is a YA fantasy ranked in the 3,000,000s. That is the magnitude of the disaster we're talking about here. It sold one copy. I'm sure there is a list of several dozen things wrong with it which have nothing to do with the story or the writing, and for that reason, it will never ever find an audience on Amazon.

I sold 2000 books on Amazon in five years. That may be the best I can do.

One thing that should be made clear to writers new and experienced before they get their Amazon dreams anywhere near a word processor is this: the publishing business is an exacting art. There is literally no room for experimentation, because you will get the same reaction from readers and editors you would get from a Hollywood studio executive: "It's neither fish nor fowl." And the bottom line is they're absolutely right. One need only look at what happened to J.K. Rowling when she tried to publish something other than Harry Potter. This woman is the best-selling author in the history of man and her eighth book was savaged and left face down in a drainage ditch outside London.

The market has absolutely no tolerance at all for anything that even drifts a few inches outside the lines. Your cover must be just so, your blurb must follow the formula, your story must be this and that and the other, delivered in three acts beat-by-beat timed to within a hair's breadth of an Olympic hurdler's shoelaces and if you so much as _think_ about doing something different, your book will plunge into the ground like a lawn dart. On this myself and everyone else on this board will agree without hesitation, especially when it comes to covers, blurbs and your selected genre.

In other words, there's no creativity involved. The market punishes creativity and rewards the safe and the comfortable.

This is why the traditional publishing industry succeeded for so long. They made the rules and then followed them. All I know how to do is write. I know how to create characters and stories about them. I don't know how to discover all the little hidden marketing gotchas that can cause thousands of words to rot into garbage before my eyes, and I certainly can't do it while trying to turn writing into a business. There's no middle ground here. You make the slightest mistake, and your work is vaporized. This is why I suggested just printing up a bunch of books and handing them to people. If I don't do that, then all it takes is one mistaken assumption about my cover, or the font, or the wording of my blurb or how many chapters I write and it's all for naught.

I thought I could experiment with length and do an episodic story. I had television as my model and as we all know, television is where all the jazz is nowadays with binge watching, all kinds of interesting ideas and their tremendous budgets. I was wrong, and it cost me almost five years of work.

The people who succeed on Amazon are very good at doing all the things I cannot: they know exactly how to make an acceptable cover, they know exactly what to put in their blurb, they can read Amazon's algorithms like tea leaves and they know what their readers expect right down to character names and how many adverbs they are allowed sentence by sentence. They give readers exactly what they want, letter by letter.

I can't do any of those things. Like I said, I'm tired of the siege of failure. I did my best and I failed. I may yet sell books. I might buckle back down and pound out three thick 100k space operas by Christmas, but even if I get the bit in my teeth, it will take me a solid month of writing to complete each book, which means I'm looking at 12 weeks without a break to get something marketable back on the shelf in time for the holiday rush (because you need three books to really start selling). Who knows? Maybe I'll just hand it all over to Scholastic or Random House and let them do their thing. At least they know how to color inside the lines.  That would be a satisfying ironic conclusion to it all, wouldn't it?

Don't be me. Write yourself a nice safe 400-page romance (the whole thing is set up for romances) that gives readers exactly what they expect: Nothing more, nothing less. Do exactly what you're told will work. Make it exactly like the books in the top 10-20 in your selected genre. Otherwise you will regret every minute you spent trying to write good stories for the Amazon Kindle.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

justphil said:


> The market has absolutely no tolerance at all for anything that even drifts a few inches outside the lines. Your cover must be just so, your blurb must follow the formula, your story must be this and that and the other, delivered in three acts beat-by-beat timed to within a hair's breadth of an Olympic hurdler's shoelaces and if you so much as _think_ about doing something different, your book will plunge into the ground like a lawn dart. On this myself and everyone else on this board will agree without hesitation, especially when it comes to covers, blurbs and your selected genre.
> 
> In other words, there's no creativity involved. The market punishes creativity and rewards the safe and the comfortable.


I dont really go along with that. People here hate my covers, but my readers love them. I'm deliberately doing something I'm told not to, and it hasn't seemed to effect sales. Can I get a Bookbub? No. But sales are fine with the covers I have, and this is pure creativity on my part. The covers match the story origins and references.



> The people who succeed on Amazon are very good at doing all the things I cannot: they know exactly how to make an acceptable cover, they know exactly what to put in their blurb, they can read Amazon's algorithms like tea leaves and they know what their readers expect right down to character names and how many adverbs they are allowed sentence by sentence. They give readers exactly what they want, letter by letter.
> 
> I can't do any of those things. Like I said, I'm tired of the siege of failure. I did my best and I failed.


Failure is NOT a problem.Its a learning experience.

I think you should show us your books. I think you should ask for people to point out exactly what they think is wrong with them. Bare your soul if you like. But find out what we think, and what we recommend you do.

Giving up is one thing. Saying I fell short is another. Refusing to take up the challenge of finding out what was wrong, and doing something about fixing it, is another.

Sure, it might hurt, and hurt a lot, but if suggestions can allow you to fix some things in books worth being improved, and allow you to write the next one from a completely different perspective, then anything is possible.

The expertise to point out maybe that one thing you have missed which bombs you every time, is here. Use it.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

What are you losing, exactly, by spending three months writing three full-length novels, if you're not selling anything now? I sure couldn't write three 100K books in three months. It takes me three months to put out a 100K+ book.

I get that it's frustrating. But no, people who succeed aren't necessarily writing to formula. They are satisfying their readership, but they're doing it in different ways. Every readership isn't the same. There are many segments in all genres. 

If romance is so easy and safe, why weren't you able to sell it? There's no such thing as a "nice safe 400-page romance." Most romance novels, 400 pages or not, do NOT sell. Those that sell satisfy their audience, whatever that audience is for that author. 

The Casual Vacancy, J. K. Rowling's eighth book, sold over one million copies in three weeks. It wasn't any kind of failure. 

My suggestions:

- Do that. Write those three 100K books. For heaven's sake, it's three months. What do you have to lose?

- Get a developmental editor. Invest the money to find out where your story isn't satisfying a reader. I'm guessing it would be your best investment, since something is clearly "off." You've said it isn't your mechanics or your formatting, so I'm guessing it's your story. Your writing, for whatever reason, isn't grabbing people.

- Pay a good cover artist. 

- Study blurbs. There's nothing evil or mass-market about presenting your work well. You wouldn't put out a poorly formatted piece of work, because you wouldn't be producing the quality that readers expect. It's the same thing with covers and blurbs. There's nothing evil about it. They're a signal of professionalism, just like editing and formatting. 

- If you're still this bitter and frustrated, go do something else where you have a better shot. Not every career is for everybody. I know I taught once, and boy, am I not the greatest at that. Couldn't leave that behind fast enough.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> I'm deliberately doing something I'm told not to, and it hasn't seemed to effect sales.


Then Tim, you're the luckiest guy on Amazon. What can I say?



> Refusing to take up the challenge of finding out what was wrong, and doing something about fixing it, is another.


I wrote books that were too short. I should have written full-length heavyweight novels of 100,000 words or more to match the other books in my categories. I should have spent the $300 or $400 for a pro cover for each book. I should have colored inside the lines and I didn't. Throwing a dozen books on the table and inviting a hundred people (many of whom dislike me to begin with) to tear them apart isn't something I would look forward to.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

justphil said:


> I didn't know readers would not only reject the shorter works because they weren't novels, but that they would also reject (wholesale and with a ruthlessness that would have made Genghis Khan drop to a knee and weep) _everything else I published_. Apparently it is not possible to remove the stench of "too short" from any work in which it appears.


Actually I disagree and see this as proof that its not the length that is the problem - it's something stylistic, voice, or your interpretation of the tropes. But again the problem is do you want to pull apart your work and figure out what it is or blame an external factor beyond your control, like Amazon's algorithms?

If it's frustrating you this much I think it would be better to walk away. Do something else. Maybe come back to writing in a year or two when you have a fresher approach.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

justphil said:


> I should have written full-length heavyweight novels of 100,000 words or more to match the other books in my categories. I should have spent the $300 or $400 for a pro cover for each book. I should have colored inside the lines and I didn't.


Again you are missing the point. I don't write 100k+ novels. I don't pay $400 for a cover. I don't colour inside the lines and neither do a large number of authors that I know. I am familiar with my chosen genre and what readers like/expect but I put my own spin on my stories.

It is very possible to make a living writing shorter/under 100k works. AnnieB is one fantastic example that springs to mind. I think hers are under 60k.


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## stacia_s (Jul 15, 2015)

justphil said:


> Don't be me. Write yourself a nice safe 400-page romance (the whole thing is set up for romances) that gives readers exactly what they expect: Nothing more, nothing less. Do exactly what you're told will work. Make it exactly like the books in the top 10-20 in your selected genre. Otherwise you will regret every minute you spent trying to write good stories for the Amazon Kindle.


Now you're just feeling sorry for yourself. And kind of crapping on romance readers/writers in the process. Romance is one of the best-selling categories of fiction and it pretty much always has been, long before indie publishing was a thing. People who are interested in selling books (not just writing, but selling) have to figure out how to give people something they want. The bottom line is that you're producing work that people don't want to buy, for whatever reason. You can use the valuable information being provided to you to change that or you can take your toys and go home. If you want to sell books, work on writing something people want to buy. If you want to write what you like, regardless of its saleability, then do that but don't complain that you're not making money.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> They are satisfying their readership, but they're doing it in different ways. Every readership isn't the same.


Fair enough, but that presumes one has a readership to begin with. If a book is invisible, nobody's going to read it.



> If romance is so easy and safe, why weren't you able to sell it?


Because romance readers expect a certain kind of cover and want longer books. Surely you would agree romance readers constitute the majority of the Kindle market? With that many readers, it is easy and safe, because the entire eco-system is built to support it (my Bknights romance promos had six times the downloads of the others).

One need only try to sell a middle grade fantasy adventure on Amazon to learn what happens to authors who believe all genres are created equal.



> Your writing, for whatever reason, isn't grabbing people.


My writing is invisible. No review I've ever received has complained about the writing. You're free to take that for what it's worth, but I'm sure you and I can both agree there is some atrociously bad fiction (chronic spelling mistakes, incomplete sentences, tense changes after commas, homonym substitution, etc.) on Amazon that is outselling me 100 to 1. I can say that with some authority and so can you.



> There's nothing evil or mass-market about presenting your work well.


It's not evil. It's exacting. I didn't present my work poorly. I simply failed to grasp the fact that readers insist on full-length novels that pass the "one of these things isn't like the others" test.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> If you want to sell books, work on writing something people want to buy.


That's exactly what I said. I tried to write PG fantasy adventures for the Harry Potter-age market. The novel length work did well, but the episodic ones faceplanted. It's settled at this point Amazon is not friendly to the YA market. So I wrote short romances. Those did better. In fact one of my romances is still my #3 top seller. My fellow author's is still our #1 best seller.

I caught the leading edge of the space opera thing and wrote those. Fastest selling books any of us have ever had. Responsible for half my sales and 80% of my 5-stars. But they don't sell any more unless I pour cash into promos and even then we get 2-3 sales a week. Too short, so Amazon flipped the switch and they're done.

What Amazon wants and what the readers want is novel-length work with a pro cover: a big tall bet on one title instead of diversifying and trying to keep up with the cliff. Fair enough. Now I have to decide if I can do that or not. It has nothing to do with who feels sorry for who. I'm facing reality and I'm inviting other authors to avoid my mistakes. I think other aspiring writers would appreciate it if someone like myself keeps them from destroying a million words of hard work because they thought there was room for experimentation.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

justphil said:


> I caught the leading edge of the space opera thing and wrote those. Fastest selling books any of us have ever had. Responsible for half my sales and 80% of my 5-stars. But they don't sell any more unless I pour cash into promos and even then we get 2-3 sales a week. Too short, so Amazon flipped the switch and they're done.


I for one would like to see one.

The problem with SO, is the readers want it fast, and they want it long, and they want bang for their buck. But if you can write 3000 words a day, you can release once a month. And once SO readers decide they like what you write, they'll buy most of what you put out. The problem is, you have to keep them satisfied, or they forget you.



> because they thought there was room for experimentation.


There is ALWAYS room for experimentation. Doesn't mean it will work, but this is how new sub-genres get started,and how trends in writing begin. Someone took a risk and experimented.



justphil said:


> Then Tim, you're the luckiest guy on Amazon. What can I say?


I dont disagree with you. But it started with a book 3, which just happened to press all the right buttons. Now I know what those buttons are, I keep trying to do them again, within a story line which wasn't designed for it. But I keep learning as I go along.



> I wrote books that were too short. I should have written full-length heavyweight novels of 100,000 words or more to match the other books in my categories. I should have spent the $300 or $400 for a pro cover for each book. I should have colored inside the lines and I didn't. Throwing a dozen books on the table and inviting a hundred people (many of whom dislike me to begin with) to tear them apart isn't something I would look forward to.


No-one ever does.

But hey, sometimes the best way through, is to jump the flames.

I get 2 impressions off you. 
1. You know exactly where you are going wrong, but dont want to change. Possibly ego related.
2. You are clueless about what's really wrong, and terrified of finding out.

Could be both together.

Choose 3 books in different genres, and throw them on the table. Let everyone do their worst. Say nothing until someone summarizes what everyone said.

So your ego takes a hit. Everyone's ego could do with taking a hit now and them.

Maybe, just maybe, 1 line someone writes about those 3 books is exactly your problem and the only thing you need to fix. Maybe you get a list of suggestions a mile long. But unless you put your books where your mouth is, nothing is going to change for you.


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## andersgordon (Sep 25, 2016)

Hi everyone, I've been lurking as I work on early stages of my first novel, but joined just now to say :

  This thread is the best treatise on the craft and toil of writing I have ever read.  

I literally have tears welling up, blurring the screen as I type.

To justphil.. thankyou for your heart-wrenching post, for your honesty, for listening to hard feedback without losing your sh*t.  

Maybe the best approach is to take the most popular sequence of your novelettes and edit them into a 60k first book in a series ?
If length is the main issue that will be worth the small investment in time.
I'd love to read that and give feedback privately, and leave a review on amazon with your consent. 

I think having gone thru the 'valley of disenchantment', your advice to other writers like myself would also be really valuable... and we often learn things when we teach them.  
Can we rally a small group to critique each others work, and marketing methods - perhaps along genre lines ?

If this group of writers can help justphil to commercial success, then I think it speaks volumes that we really do understand the mechanics of making a living as a writer - its not just a lottery, it is 90% about good writing and good marketing and 10% luck.  


I often think of myself as a Vulcan on a human planet, I like to say "Id never join any group that would have me as a member"... but reading this thread, I feel these are my kind of people - I raise a glass of red to you marvelous beasts !


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

justphil said:


> In other words, there's no creativity involved. The market punishes creativity and rewards the safe and the comfortable.


This is just plain false.

To blame Amazon, the market, readers, the industry, the length, the serial model (on and on, up to and including the kitchen sink), is looking in the wrong place. If your work isn't selling, your stories are not engaging readers - period.

If you truly believe the stuff you're saying (and it would seem that you do), then perhaps it is "time to hang it up" because throwing a pity party for one, or knocking authors that are successful because somehow you think they're just lucky and/or writing in an "easy" genre, and/or at the "right" word count, and/or playing connect the dots, is silly and certainly not the kind of attitude that will turn things around for you.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> If your work isn't selling, your stories are not engaging readers - period.


We have a Himalayan mountain of evidence that's not true. The writing is the last thing a customer sees. It's practically a foregone conclusion at this point it's a length issue, since that's the only consistent complaint in my reviews.

To Tim: I know what's wrong, and I'm not avoiding it because of my ego. I'm avoiding it because I don't want to pour 12 more weeks of work into a stack of chunky books and listen to them land with a thud because of something I have no control over. To be honest, I've never experienced writer's block before. Until now. I can even tell it's irrational and it doesn't matter. If nobody's going to read the words, there is absolutely no point in writing them.



> knocking authors that are successful because somehow you think they're just lucky and/or writing in an "easy" genre, and/or at the "right" word count, and/or playing connect the dots, is silly and certainly not the kind of attitude that will turn things around for you.


That works both ways. Concluding I'm a talent-less hack who can't carry a plot in a wicker basket because I'm not selling 100 books a day is just as likely to earn you a medal in the jumping to conclusions event. Like everyone on this board says, your cover and your blurb have a lot more to do with your book's success than your command of 11-letter words, and you and I both know it would take me only seconds to find a half-dozen books in the top 200 in my genre with writing that could stop a clock. My readers are not literature professors. They can't avoid books they haven't read.



> I raise a glass of red to you marvelous beasts !


/tips cap


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

justphil said:


> To Tim: I know what's wrong, and I'm not avoiding it because of my ego. I'm avoiding it because I don't want to pour 12 more weeks of work into a stack of chunky books and listen to them land with a thud because of something I have no control over.


But that's what I think your wrong about. And only seeing a book will confirm it or not.

You are convinced its nothing you control, and most of us here say the opposite.

We have seen enough of these threads to see where the likely problems are. We have looked at enough books in these threads to say exactly what the problems are, and they rarely are what the OP thought they were.

1 book will prove it either way.


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## Dennis E. Taylor (Feb 10, 2015)

If it was me, I'd do the following:

1. Write a list of reasons that a writer could fail. Make it 'generic' so as not to take it personally. Items could include bad writing, bad cover, poor blurb, too short, too long, genre that nobody wants, etc.
2. Figure out a way to test for each hypothesis. For instance, for the writing, go to scribophile and/or critcircle and start submitting chapters. On scrib, you can also get into the beta reader groups and people will read your entire novel and comment. Remain anonymous and keep commentary to a minimum so as not to prejudice people.
3. Collate your findings. If you find that something (say, covers, just as a ferex) is off, fix it and try again. If you find that nothing is off, go to querytracker and try querying agents with some new work. If you're that good, you should be able to get an agent. If you don't, that's another datum.

The point is that, at least to a certain extent, the problem will yield to analysis.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

Well I'll tell you what, Tim.  If I take the advice of some of the people in this thread and either write a new longer work or compile one of my series into a single book, I'll link that as soon as it's published and you can see if the "this guy can't write" consensus is the right one.  How's that?


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## Lysandra_Lorde (Mar 6, 2016)

90% of the time it's the packaging that's off when something doesn't sell. Word count (aka length) is definitely a part of packaging your product. I know you're frustrated but man it hurts to see you crowing that it's all amazons fault and you couldn't be wrong.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

SallyRose said:


> To blame Amazon, the market, readers, the industry, the length, the serial model (on and on, up to and including the kitchen sink), is looking in the wrong place. If your work isn't selling, your stories are not engaging readers - period.


Exactly! But, the OP has been told that, repeatedly and he doesn't want to hear it. He started a thread nearly 2 years ago about the same thing, same complaint, similar advice and nothing has changed.

It's fantastic that so many people have offered so much advice from different angles but I honestly think you are wasting your breath. Until the OP is willing to admit that something *in the writing* is lacking, nothing will change. He has demonstrated (from the older thread) that he would rather keep doing the same thing and blame external factors.

I will say though that this thread is great for the nuggets buried in the replies and it is helping others who have more open minds.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> but man it hurts to see you crowing that it's all amazons fault and you couldn't be wrong.


Well, look at it this way: I come from a family of writers. I graduated from a university with a degree in English and I've written over a million words of commercial fiction. At this point, if it's my writing, I should be looking into an exciting career as an insurance salesman.



> Until the OP is willing to admit that something in the writing is lacking


See above.



> that he would rather keep doing the same thing and blame external factors


Two years ago we were trying to figure out how our sales went to zero because we pulled books out of Select. Not long after that I took up space opera and launched my fastest selling series. I just got through heel-ramming a wad of cash into the Facebook maw. It's not a question of being unwilling to try new things. People who are obsessed with the status quo don't write ten books in a new genre in 11 weeks.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Dude, nobody here ever said "this guy can't write." Even the best writers on the planet create flawed stories that need work. English degrees and impeccable grammar are only part of the equation, and there's no shame in recognizing your own weaknesses. Creativity in any field is all about growth and pushing personal boundaries through expression. 

Do you love what you write? Or are you just churning out grammatically perfect words in genres that you think will sell?  

Maybe instead of quitting, you should just take a break and be a reader instead of a writer for a while. Find what excites you, what ignites your imagination. See if you can find the passion that made you want to write in the first place.

If you can't, well . . . THEN maybe it's time to quit.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

justphil said:


> What Amazon wants and what the readers want is novel-length work with a pro cover: a big tall bet on one title instead of diversifying and trying to keep up with the cliff. Fair enough. Now I have to decide if I can do that or not. It has nothing to do with who feels sorry for who. I'm facing reality and I'm inviting other authors to avoid my mistakes. I think other aspiring writers would appreciate it if someone like myself keeps them from destroying a million words of hard work because they thought there was room for experimentation.


Sound advice.

I think many of us who enjoy writing short stories hoped that the introduction Amazon would expand the short story market, which was limited to trying to sell really short stories to magazines, or to sell them to such as readers digest who sold hard back collections on subscription. (I had 50 of those at one time in my library at home) Trying to get them published prior to Amazon was next to impossible as they have always been considered to be one up from the poetry market in marketability.

The big clue for aspiting short story writers is that without exception, agents don't handle single shorts, or short story collections or poetry. The simple reason is that unless you are already famous, then publishers won't even consider taking a chance because the market is very small.

If we go back to Edgar Allan Poe, then he never actually made money from his shorts during his lifetime. More money has been made since his death, by bundling them and selling the complete collection recently at 99c as an eBook. For acedemics of the art form he is a great read as he is credited with setting the groundwork for detective fiction and science fiction, so as far as experimentation goes that was around 160years ago.

Trying to sell a short (other than erotic) for 99c that could be anywhere from a vingette which is not really a story, to flash fiction upto 1000 words, to a short upto 9000 words, or a novelette above that, then when you set a short against a full length work at the same price, I don't care how good the story is, it is not percieved as value for money. As an example, at 99c each that means that it is the equivalent of $19.98 for fo a 100,000 words which is the same as 20 stories at 5000 words.

That been said, Amazon are not against the short story form. They even have their own Amazon kindle short story imprint, and they don't stop anyone publishing them, but they don't fit with customer expectations, which is hardly Amazon's fault, or the promotion sites fault, nor does it have any bearing on your ability to write them.

Like you, I published many shorts. If I put one on a free day via select with no marketing, then I averaged 4 downloads for say a 5000/10000 word story with no tail. If I did the same with a full length work then I averged 50 downloads. The covers were from a designer and no different than my full length works. That happened every time, so it told me that customers did not want short stories, or very few of them did.

The only time I ever made money on my shorts was back in 2011 when I sold my collection of 12 shorts (65,000 words) for 99c and I regularly sold 300 per month. As soon as I increased the price and published them as individuals, I dropped out of the top 5 in anthologies and sales tanked.

Best thing I ever did was to unpublish my shorts in favor of writing full length works.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Best thing I ever did was to unpublish my shorts in favor of writing full length works.


Well, there you have it. The best option might just be to take the series down, pull a Murasaki 312, write a military sci-fi trilogy of 100k monsters and spring for $1000 worth of covers. Then there won't be any question.

* Bonus points if any of my fellow sci-fi authors get the reference, by the way.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

justphil said:


> Because romance readers expect a certain kind of cover and want longer books. Surely you would agree romance readers constitute the majority of the Kindle market? *With that many readers, it is easy and safe, because the entire eco-system is built to support it *(my Bknights romance promos had six times the downloads of the others).


No. Romance is one of the most competitive genres out there. The ceiling may be high but the floor is just as low as other genres. Romances that don't have the right cover and blurb and don't appeal to reader expectations are still likely to flop. I have a single title that had grossed 80k (significantly less profit-- I spend a lot on ads) and another that has grossed 1k (a thousand bucks isnt bad, but it's all from readers finishing my actually marketable books then checking out my dud first series.) Want to guess the difference? Both are about 75k, both have nice covers, both have decent blurbs. The successful book appealed to what readers wanted while the unsuccessful went against reader expectations. No matter how much I promote the dud book/series (three 75k word novels), they aren't going to be big earners.



justphil said:


> It's not evil. It's exacting. I didn't present my work poorly. I simply failed to grasp the fact that readers insist on full-length novels that pass the "one of these things isn't like the others" test.


Tons of people made bank on serials, especially during KU 1.0. Length isn't the only issue, but if you really think that's it, repackage your serialized stories as novels. It should only take minor rewrites. You have solutions here. I sympathize with the frustration of publishing failure. Back when I was publishing dud series, I cried all the time wondering why I couldn't figure it out. That can be a necessary part of the process, but you also have to move forward and be proactive if you want to make publishing work. Publishing is a business and it requires a lot of time, mental energy, and often buy not always money.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

justphil said:


> Well I'll tell you what, Tim. If I take the advice of some of the people in this thread and either write a new longer work or compile one of my series into a single book, I'll link that as soon as it's published and you can see if the "this guy can't write" consensus is the right one. How's that?


Closing the barn doors after the horse has bolted.

You need an objective opinion on if you need to change anything before you start this next book.

Send me the link to one of your SO or MSF books in PM. Let me look at it. If nothing stands out as a problem, I'll say so in here and shut up. All I'll look at is the Kindle sample.


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

One indicator of the writing is sell through. If sales are quite low you can probably tell if a reader grabs a book then goes on to buy the rest. If they don't, it means they bought the book, assumedly read it but *aren't going on to buy more*. That's the indicator. It might not be bad but if it's not compelling enough to pry more money off them, that's your issue. 

I've seen people comment that often a reader doesn't know why they don't like a book. They can't vocalise that the character was unlikeable or flat or that the plot was lacking. Instead they focus on small issues - grammar, spelling, length. Many who don't like a book won't even leave a review. 
I second the call to put your book/s up in crit groups. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

If free downloads don't lead to paid sales of other books in a series, something is wrong with the writing. Full stop. 

If another much better-selling writer's work seems "terrible" to generic-you-writer compared to yours, rest assured--they're doing something that is more satisfying to their audience. Probably characters and story. Rather than rail against it, you'd be much better served to read their book and their reviews and try to see what that is. 

Marketing cannot sell large numbers of a book by itself. Marketing only sells books if the book satisfies the reader. Marketing can cause people to pick the book up initially, but if it isn't satisfying, it's not going to keep selling. 

There are different market segments in every genre. Some people care more about--call it a more sophisticated level of writing. Others want something less challenging, perhaps. Doesn't mean they're dumb, it means they want something less challenging to read in their leisure time. If you're not attracting ANY segment, even after free downloads--it's the book.

If you don't think the book matters, the story matters--you're fooling yourself. That doesn't mean that smart choices in genre, length, cover, blurb, promotion, etc., DON'T matter--it just means that at the end of the day, you need people to read your book, and to like it enough to want to read another one by you.  

And if your choices aren't working--for heaven's sake, CHANGE them. Don't keep doing the same thing year after year, book after book, if it's not working. Step back, and if you can't step back--ask the smartest person you know to evaluate what you're doing, and then swallow your pride and listen. You can't do better until you listen. 

This is not for the OP, who won't believe it. It's for anybody lurking who's wondering whether it's all about covers and writing in an "easy" genre. It isn't.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> If free downloads don't lead to paid sales of other books in a series, something is wrong with the writing. Full stop.


Great post Rosalind, thank you 

I have a 4-book romance series, book 1 is permafree so sell through 1:2 is low (which I expect with a freebie) but book 2 to 3 has a 95% sell through rate and I have a similar rate book 3:4. I know I'm doing something right that I am retaining that many readers to each subsequent book in the series. While I'm not a bestseller, the series sells steadily and generates a nice monthly income.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

I have two four-book series. The sell-though on one is pretty good, on the other it sucks. I like both series but my conclusion from this is to write more like the first series and less like the second.

To the OP - if you don't enjoy it, quit. And if you do enjoy it, stop wasting energy trying to attribute blame and get back to learning, learning, learning. No matter how good you are, look at improving EVERYTHING. Writing, plots, characters, covers, marketing, back matter, social media skills, the lot. When you stop trying to forge forward you stagnate. Podcasts, dude. I'm a podcast fiend, and I've learned so much. The SPP and the SPF ones are my favorite but there are tons out there on YouTube. Learn, learn, learn, and try every day to improve.


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## deanbriscoe7 (Sep 25, 2016)

Man, this is depressing. My first time visiting Kboards, and this is what I see: me five years from now.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

deanbriscoe7 said:


> Man, this is depressing. My first time visiting Kboards, and this is what I see: me five years from now.


Welcome to the mad house.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Get betareaders, a lot of them. Listen to what they say. I think Rosalind has it, right there.

JFYI: I sell rather well off Amazon in literary fiction, spec fiction, and in niche erotica and erom. I don't run many advertisements, I'm not that prominent on social media. A website and a maillist to each pen name is all I have.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

justphil said:


> In other words, there's no creativity involved. The market punishes creativity and rewards the safe and the comfortable.


I think it might be beneficial to look at this another way. Publishing has no interest in punishing or rewarding any author. The market wants what it wants. It buys what it wants, and it doesn't buy what it doesn't want, and it's that simple. It doesn't care about any writer's desire to write outside the box, and it's under no obligation to buy anything it doesn't want. So, basically, if an author wants to sell books, they need to write books that the market wants.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

justphil said:


> ... In other words, there's no creativity involved. The market punishes creativity and rewards the safe and the comfortable. ...
> 
> ... The people who succeed on Amazon are very good at doing all the things I cannot: they know exactly how to make an acceptable cover, they know exactly what to put in their blurb, they can read Amazon's algorithms like tea leaves and they know what their readers expect right down to character names and how many adverbs they are allowed sentence by sentence. They give readers exactly what they want, letter by letter. ...
> 
> ...


Look, it sucks that your work hasn't caught on, but stop sounding like a martyr. You're making it seem like some Orwellian overlord is punishing you for daring to dream. Punishes creativity? Rewards the safe and comfortable? Come on, man.

The simple fact is you're not putting out things people want to read. That doesn't mean you're a bad writer, or that you can't sell a lot - it just means the work you're putting out isn't lighting up the market. Case in point - James Cameron has realised the biggest movies _ever_, and he's also realised a bunch of ocean documentaries basically no one has seen. Just because not a lot of people care about ocean documentaries doesn't really mean that much.

I'm sorry if I sound bitchy but you've got dozens of people offering good advice, and seemingly the only thing you can say is that Amazon is punishing you for trying to write "good stories". Yes, in some ways the market can be narrow, but what do you want? People have the right to put their money where they want it.

And if I were you, I'd be taking the advice you're getting here. You've been struggling for 5 years, so what's another 12 weeks of work, really? Maybe you'll fail, but maybe you won't. Personally, I know plenty of people in bands who actively avoid taking good advice on how to succeed (i.e. band photos, press biographies, paying for ads, etc) because they're frightened when if it doesn't work, they won't have anything to blame except themselves.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

justphil said:


> Then Tim, you're the luckiest guy on Amazon. What can I say?
> 
> *I wrote books that were too short. I should have written full-length heavyweight novels of 100,000 words or more to match the other books in my categories. * I should have spent the $300 or $400 for a pro cover for each book. I should have colored inside the lines and I didn't. Throwing a dozen books on the table and inviting a hundred people (many of whom dislike me to begin with) to tear them apart isn't something I would look forward to.


The length of your books is probably not the problem. There are short books selling in every genre. I've spent enough time reading and lurking around different forums, goodreads, Amazon and blogs and looking at the rankings to see that there are many authors making a living from shorter books. There are authors telling their success stories all over the internet, explaining how they wrote a bunch of novellas and made enough to quit their day job.
I read short stories and novellas. Quite a few people I know love novellas.

Readers want to be engaged in the story if it's short and especially if it's long. Writing a 100k story that is a slog to read through is not going to increase anyones sales. Not all readers want epic doorstops.

I think some authors lose touch with readers. Remember why you read sci-fi or romance, insert any other genre. Remember why you read Stephen King, Nora Roberts, James Patterson, insert any other author.
To fill some spare time, to be carried away to a far far planet, to be taken into another world, to learn (sometimes yes), to stretch your imagination, to reduce stress, to spend some time everyday forgetting about your real life problems, to be entertained.

*I like this*: _We asked attendees at the annual Book Expo America conference why they think people should read more books. Here are their answers. _https://www.buzzfeed.com/jarrylee/reasons-to-read-more

Someone mentioned 'The creative Penn' interview with Alan Baxter who writes short stories. _Alan Baxter is an award-winning author of dark fantasy, horror and sci-fi with 6 novels and over 70 internationally published short stories. _ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcVLs4cHkUE

What about these authors who write short stories and novellas:

Dean Wesley Smith
Stephen King
M.S. Parker
Neil Gaiman
Hugh Howey
Alexa Riley


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

If you follow the DWS method, you will end up with DWS results. It's pretty simple imo what happened here... I made those same mistakes for years and reaped the same results. It wasn't until I accepted that what I was doing wasn't going to result in what I wanted (ie making a living/having a large readership) and make a change. Once I did, it took 2 books and less than a month to exceed all my income dreams. Change is hard, but worth it if this is what you really want.

I'd advise the OP to write longer books, and to figure out why there isn't better sell-through on the ones he has before he spends more time and money bundling and repackaging those.  It could just be length or it could be something else.  In my opinion, sell-through is a key thing to look at when trying to figure out if it's audience or the work. Sell-through is king in terms of building a long-term audience. You gotta have it.

Also, if you are feeling burned out (general you here), there's nothing wrong with taking a breather. Writing will still be there when you are ready.


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## Pam771771 (Sep 24, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> When you release your book, it goes onto the new release list for each sub-category you can get the book into. The position on the list is determined by your launch marketing. So mailing list, FB, twitter, Instagram- whatever you can do to let people know the book is out, gives you first days sales, and first/second days reads if you go in select. The higher the new release list you debut on, the better the following days sales are.
> 
> At 30 days, your book drops off the new release lists regardless of how well it did. So unless you're author rank is really good, or the book is really selling and/or reading well, there is an immediate fall off. From there, the downward spiral is measurable.
> 
> ...


Thank you for clearing this up for me.

I'm willing to take the risk, and take my time, as like I said I'm just doing this as a hobby because I enjoy it. All I hope is that a few people enjoy my stories. I was just worried about the way it had been phrased earlier in the thread that it was some kind of contractual obligation.

TBH I was planning on releasing Book 1 and Book 2 at the same time anyway (or perhaps a couple of weeks apart), and I think I can probably get Book 3 written within 3 months (or 6 months worst case scenario).

As this is just a hobby to me I guess I'll then wait and see if anyone actually likes my writing before looking further ahead to the future!! If I can write one trilogy and people enjoy it then that will be success to me


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## Northern pen (Mar 3, 2015)

deanbriscoe7 said:


> Man, this is depressing. My first time visiting Kboards, and this is what I see: me five years from now.


Nope... This is your lucky day my friend. After reading this thread you go on to read all the helpful threads in the FAQ section that spell out how to become a successful self publisher (note I did not say author)

Kboards writers cafe is a freaking roadmap to success. All you have to do is absorb some knowledge...

I started my journey two years ago. I was broke an going though a major depression issue. I decided that I was going to write a book. It was a bucket list thing. I felt I needed to accomplish something.. anything. So I wrote. I wrote crap, utter crap. But I finished it... About the same time I found Kboards.

I learned all about things like keywords. I probably posted like two dozen really shitty looking cover ideas. People here kept helping me. I kept reading about categories. I had a thread where I got people to help me with my blurb. I asked stupid questions often... I learned how to use promo's. I read every launch thread I could find... I got lucky and found an editor on kboards that did a free edit because she was making switch to free lance. so she edited my second book while I begged borrowed and got family to edit my first book... I ended up with two poorly edited books. Not because the editors sucked, but my writing was so poor that they were only able to fix so much in the time they had. While I waited for the books to be edited I published some short stories under a pen name. I made a couple sales a day and got some borrows (tail end of KU1) I made enough money to buy a coffee and a bagel, but I learned more about amazon... got my feet wet.

Finally, after months of waiting I got my books back. I had two finished books! With home made covers and shitty editing and poor formatting. But I had two books! Then I launched, I got good sub cats, I had good keywords. My shitty homemade covers were bright and interesting enough to get people to click. My blurbs were error filled, but interesting enough to get people to buy... My goal was to make 30 bucks a day writing. I figured if by some miracle I could make 30 bucks a day I could write part time and keep working at bars and building sheds for a couple years until I could maybe drop a job and do more writing.

After two weeks surpassed my goal. I was so excited!! Man if I made 50 bucks a day I would be balling... Long story short, I went from completely broke and borrowing money to get started to quitting my jobs last fall. I am now a full-time author and am making a very good income from it...

This isn't because I am a great writer, I'm not. It isn't because I won the lucky lottery either. I did my research. I learned how to market my shitty but somewhat enjoyable books to people who like my kind of shit. And this all happened because of kboards. What I learned here is what gave me the opportunity to be noticed in a sea of books.

And that is what matters. You can write the greatest book in the world, or a 100 incredible short stories and you can make nothing. Or you can write a couple shitty books that hit the write notes and start a career.

My point is there is a hell of a lot more to making a career as a writer than being able to write. You can learn all that other crap here for free!! People are literally giving away the secrets to success for free! You don't need to buy a course, go to college to learn.

Read kboards.... write books..Read kboards..write books... Learn, adapt, succeed.

5 years from now you are going to killing it... because you read kboards and write. It is that simple


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2016)

justphil said:


> My mistake, as it turns out, was believing I could have it both ways. I wrote short works to maintain a release schedule that guaranteed my works were never out of the new releases list (at one point I was averaging five books every four weeks). I bundled those works to get the higher royalties and the readers who preferred longer books. It's one of those plans that looks great on paper and should have worked.
> 
> But the market being what it is, I didn't know readers would not only reject the shorter works because they weren't novels, but that they would also reject (wholesale and with a ruthlessness that would have made Genghis Khan drop to a knee and weep) _everything else I published_. Apparently it is not possible to remove the stench of "too short" from any work in which it appears. So that leaves me with a smoking pile of worthless rubble where my portfolio of published work used to be, and presents me with the choice between sitting down to write another 300,000 words of original material (in a "my house is on fire" hurry) or facing complete failure.
> 
> ...


Good Lord....I can't count how many times I've read this sort of thing. _It can't possibly be me. The world simply doesn't get it. Readers can't handle anything creative. And if it's popular, how can it also be good? It just can't._ 
The thing about experimenting is that often it doesn't work out. Ask any scientist. Just because you tried to "work outside the box" doesn't mean the idea was a good one. Nothing is stacked against you. If you write stories people don't like, then you are the one responsible. If you try something new and people aren't digging it, it's not due to some lack of intelligence on their part. 
Few people are as smart as they think they are.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Like I said before, if your books aren't matching what the Amazon market wants, try going wide. All stores have different demographics and audiences. I have books which have never done much on Amazon, but do really well at Kobo or B&N or DriveThruFiction, etc...

Give it three months wide with your existing shorts, because getting traction elsewhere takes time, and use the time to write something longer to capture the Amazon market. 

BTW, I mostly write shorter works as well. Short fiction certainly can sell, though shorts will probably never sell as well as novels.


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## LVee (Aug 24, 2016)

justphil said:


> There is literally no room for experimentation...
> 
> ...In other words, there's no creativity involved. The market punishes creativity and rewards the safe and the comfortable.
> 
> ...


Your biggest problem seems to be that you didn't realize self-publishing made you a business, not an author. 
You can't be a traditional author and just write stories, you have to be the publisher too and do the marketing, the genre research, and steer your books towards markets where they will succeed, just writing books is only a small part of the business.

So let's analyze that other part of the business.

So you've realized that marketing is required, and you don't know how to market your books. Great! There are so many easy ways to learn marketing, and while you may not be the best from the start, every small effort will be rewarded with more sales. Start your research now! You've got all these books, put effort into identifying where they fall flat, what aspect could be improved to increase sales.

The best part is you have a community like kboards that can help critique each aspect of a book. Many people ask for help with covers, blurbs, titles, and even what genres and subgenres to place a certain book in.

By using these resources, you can identify exactly what needs to be improved to get your books selling.

Chances are, if you aren't getting sales then you aren't getting any traffic. There aren't any potential readers finding your book to even think about buying it.

So do some research on promotion sites. Look for free sites and low cost sites, and see what will be the most economical and effective for you and your genre.

Analyze your mailing list sign-ups. Do most people sign-up? Are you using that list effectively? If not, ask for help creating a good in-book sign-up for the mailing list, and help managing the list or using the list effectively.

And there you go. You'll have a good cover, blurb, title. The books will be in the right subgenres for people to find them easily. You'll have promotions lined up to get potential buyers to each books page, and an effective mailing list to capture them and send them to the next book.

Finally, don't be afraid to experiment. Remember though, experiments are a success whether you sell more books or less. They are only useful to gather information. If you try a new launch strategy, or experiment with the length of books, and that fails, great! You've gained knowledge, and can analyze what aspects of those strategies were the problem, and what aspects were useful.

The larger the experiment, the more risk, so experiment at the level you are comfortable. And be sure to abandon experiments as soon as they have results, be quick to change and try another experiment with what you've learned.

Part of being an indie author is being adaptable, and to enjoy experimentation.

Good luck!


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

This_Way_Down said:


> Good Lord....I can't count how many times I've read this sort of thing. _It can't possibly be me. The world simply doesn't get it. Readers can't handle anything creative. And if it's popular, how can it also be good? It just can't._
> The thing about experimenting is that often it doesn't work out. Ask any scientist. Just because you tried to "work outside the box" doesn't mean the idea was a good one. Nothing is stacked against you. If you write stories people don't like, then you are the one responsible. If you try something new and people aren't digging it, it's not due to some lack of intelligence on their part.


This ^^

Successful people in any industry are those who can reflect on themselves, commit to change what isn't working, and strive to do better. Making subtle accusations that everyone else is to blame is never going to help you rise up in any endeavor. The bottom line is that the readers you currently reach (who buy your books) are not following through to buy more of your books. You can break it down and come up with a plan to work towards being successful by fixing what (in your books) is keeping readers from wanting to read the rest of your work and how to reach more readers; you can assess your current books, decide to leave them be, and start something fresh; you can take the advice of the authors here in this thread who have offered to help you. Those are all productive ways of working towards a goal. The mindset that Amazon is against you, or that the readers just don't get your work, or that any authors who claim to be successful can't possibly be telling the truth -- well, those are not productive means of being successful, in the publishing world or life in general.

This industry is tough; there's no arguing that. I started out with the ABNA contest; I didn't win, but I didn't take the position that Amazon was against me or that all the other authors clogging things up with their inferior works were keeping my masterpiece from being noticed. I assessed the flaws in my story, acknowledged that the reader (in that case, a Publisher's Weekly reviewer) ultimately didn't think the story was strong enough to advance further in the competition, and I came up with a plan to move on. I realized that Romance is a huge category, Time Travel romance is a niche full of hungry, dedicated readers, and that I had to somehow find a way to stand out and appeal to those readers. That book became the cornerstone of the series that made me a full time writer by book #3. It wasn't luck, it wasn't that I somehow tipped a favorable Amazon algorithm. It consisted of a plan to critically asses what needed to be changed, come up with a plan to change it, implement the plan, and move forward.


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## writerc (Apr 15, 2016)

Robyn Wideman said:


> Nope... This is your lucky day my friend. After reading this thread you go on to read all the helpful threads in the FAQ section that spell out how to become a successful self publisher (note I did not say author)
> 
> Kboards writers cafe is a freaking roadmap to success. All you have to do is absorb some knowledge...
> 
> ...


Inspiring! I love these mini career summaries  They give me hope that i can also sell a little of my kind of crap


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> Well, look at it this way: I come from a family of writers. I graduated from a university with a degree in English and I've written over a million words of commercial fiction. At this point, if it's my writing, I should be looking into an exciting career as an insurance salesman.


And I have listened to a million rap songs and can rhyme with the best of them. I have zero rhythm (and my dancing makes uncoordinated women everywhere cringe) but I'm totally a word maestro. It's therefore iTunes' fault that I am not a rich rapper.


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

justphil said:


> Well, look at it this way: I come from a family of writers. I graduated from a university with a degree in English and I've written over a million words of commercial fiction. At this point, if it's my writing, I should be looking into an exciting career as an insurance salesman.


I don't remember any English professors assuring me that, at the completion of their course, I'd be funny, or engaging, or even interesting. I certainly don't remember any of them telling me I'd have my finger on the pulse of a market and I'd be wildly successful as an author. I remember them saying that I'd be able to use the language correctly. And, if memory serves, I believe the rest was supposed to be up to me.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

ShayneRutherford said:


> I think it might be beneficial to look at this another way. Publishing has no interest in punishing or rewarding any author. The market wants what it wants. It buys what it wants, and it doesn't buy what it doesn't want, and it's that simple. It doesn't care about any writer's desire to write outside the box, and it's under no obligation to buy anything it doesn't want. So, basically, if an author wants to sell books, they need to write books that the market wants.


YES!

We've been fed a story about being "creative" and "original" and "innovative" and this being about "art" and "self-expression" for years. That myth making has been responsible for gallons of writerly tears who take what they think of as an original path and then see no sales.

Don't get me wrong -- creativity and self-expression, art and being original and innovation are all great, but you have to do them within the expectations of the market. There are scads of creative original innovative artists out there creating their art and expressing themselves. And starving.

If you are okay with starving, then by all means -- be original. Be creative and innovative. Make it all about your own personal self-expression and art.

If you want to make a living at writing, then you have to make sure you create something the market wants to buy. Period.

We don't currently live in a Star Trek future where people are free to seek self-fulfillment free of the market. Sad but true. We all have to face the reality of the market. It's a market economy. Shake your fist at it, and disparage it, and despair about it, blame it, and see how far that gets you. It will get you nowhere.

Or, you can accept its reality and work with it.

You can be creative and original and innovative, and you can express yourself through your art but make sure you innovate within the larger expectations if you want to sell books. First, give them what they want and what they crave and THEN innovate within. Any time you go too far afield, you take a risk that you'll draw too far out of the expected lines and your reader won't recognize what you've written as what they want to read.

There are a few authors who are able to do exactly what they want and sell boatloads of books. They are the exceptions that prove the rule. You can hope that you will be one of those black swans, but your better bet is to understand that this is a market and markets have preferences that have nothing to do with you personally, artist.

Instead of trying to do exactly what _you_ want as an artist, why not see pleasing the market and selling books as being exactly what you want to do?

That's what I've decided I want. I want to write and sell books for a living. That's exactly what I want to do. That means I have to understand how to write selling books and then I have to understand how to sell them.

ETA: In fact, why not try both paths? You may be a black swan. You might. What do you have to lose but time and energy pursuing this as an artist first and as a business person second? Write that book of your heart -- express yourself. Be innovative. Be creative. Write outside the lines. Maybe you will be that one in a million who succeeds. If not, go back to the drawing board and look at the market. See what it prefers. Then give it what it wants, with a dose of your special sauce.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Joseph Malik said:


> I don't remember any English professors assuring me that, at the completion of their course, I'd be funny, or engaging, or even interesting. I certainly don't remember any of them telling me I'd have my finger on the pulse of a market and I'd be wildly successful as an author. I remember them saying that I'd be able to use the language correctly. And, if memory serves, I believe the rest was supposed to be up to me.


THIS.

Using the language correctly is not being a great storyteller.

Being a great storyteller is a far more important skill than being able to string together words in a grammatically perfect manner. The latter is good, but will not sell books. The former will.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Sela said:


> Being a great storyteller is a far more important skill than being able to string together words in a grammatically perfect manner. The latter is good, but will not sell books. The former will.


Yes. I make no attempt to write good literature. Or even be considered for a literary standard. I write a good rollicking yarn, and I write it the way I think. Someone called my first book chicken scratch. Know what? I think short. A lot. Depends though. On? If my brain hurts or not. Yeah. Since I write in first person, I can get away with it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

ebbrown said:


> Successful people in any industry are those who can reflect on themselves, commit to change what isn't working, and strive to do better.










(And yes, Edison really said this...)

Betsy


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

justphil said:


> Well, there you have it. The best option might just be to take the series down, pull a Murasaki 312, write a military sci-fi trilogy of 100k monsters and spring for $1000 worth of covers. Then there won't be any question.
> 
> * Bonus points if any of my fellow sci-fi authors get the reference, by the way.


It's a personal choice. I could only say what has worked for me. There's no guarantee of success whatever you do.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

If you're not getting joy out of this, then quit. There's much easier ways to make a buck. 

But if you do enjoy writing and creating stories, the best advice I can offer is to focus on the story itself. Solid writing is one thing.....but it's really story-telling that makes the difference. 

Look at the books in the top 100. Study them, and read the ones in your genre that look intriguing. You can learn so much by doing this. These are the writers that are exciting readers. 

It's not just about length. It's about the story. Do you grab the reader right away and compel them to turn the pages? If you can do that, that's the key. New writers are breaking out all the time, with no background, no advertising......nothing but great covers and kickass stories. Story is everything. 

Romance is no easier to do this in than other genres....if anything it's harder. If you don't genuinely love to read and write romance, you probably won't do as well as those who are passionate about it. 

But people are killing it in every genre, mystery, sci fi, historical.....

It can totally be done, if you take the time and focus on creating a compelling story that exceeds the readers expectations.

If that doesn't sound like fun though....screw it. Do something else.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

justphil said:


> I'm perfectly willing to admit perhaps I just suck at marketing.


This may be the issue.

The land grab happened years ago. Back then, marketing wasn't as important. That time is over. A good product is no longer enough if you lack an audience.

Today, you must be a solid marketer to build readership. That means doing market research, creating a brand, wrapping your product in an appealing package, and writing irresistible copy. It means keeping an eye on Amazon's algos (if you sell on Amazon), building a mailing list, and learning how to leverage both.

It means figuring out exactly what your target market wants and giving it to them.

This isn't meant for the OP. I suspect folks in this thread are beginning to realize the OP is a lost cause. But for new authors who intend to publish with the hope of making sales, it's a good idea to treat this like a business.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2016)

I would like to point out that you would be hard pressed to find an industry with the access one has as an indie writer. The top 1% earners making 6 & 7 figures per year are more than willing to share with the up-and-comers their methods and experience. Where else do you have this? And where else is it free of charge? People make fortunes selling their techniques for success. Indie writers GIVE IT AWAY! FOR FREE!
I hear so many complaints and accusations from writers who are unwilling to admit their own failings. They whine about lack of money, lack of sales, lack of readers, lack of....well....just about everything. And when a writer who has sold hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of books points out what they have done wrong, the information is ignored. Statements like, I don't care about sales, and success is a state of mind, are thrown around. My personal favorite is, I write for me. If that's true and you don't care what people think of your writing, why publish in the first place? 
If you are an indie writer who has not sold books, you are doing something wrong. There is no other way to look at it. It could be as basic and obvious as being a bad writer. It could be as subtle as your genre and subject matter. Though it's likely a combination of several things. Sadly, if you enjoy writing but aren't very good at it, you probably won't be able to admit it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't write. I'm not a very good card player. But I still enjoy poker with my friends. I just don't think I'll be doing it for a living. But if you have the talent and you're still failing, you are making mistakes elsewhere. I know what some of you will say. "I've done everything right. But I still didn't gain traction. It's as much to do with luck as anything else." Ah, well...there is no talking to these people. The only luck is the luck you create. The rest is work and an understanding of the profession you have chosen.


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

justphil said:


> Concluding I'm a talent-less hack who can't carry a plot in a wicker basket because I'm not selling 100 books a day is just as likely to earn you a medal in the jumping to conclusions event.


Actually, I never concluded this ^^

I merely responded to the info in your OP. If, as you say, you've written/published 60 titles that aren't selling... that indicates an issue with reader engagement.

You may very well put together beautiful words, in a grammatically correct manner, with perfectly punctuated sentences, but until you're willing to turn a critical eye to what's missing from a storytelling angle, I wouldn't recommend sitting down and writing another book - not even one of those easy-peasy "nice, safe 400-page romances." 

You've mentioned your English degree a few times. Degrees are all well and good, but a degree (in any field) is not a Willy Wonka Golden Ticket to success in life. What it takes to complete a degree and do well in academia, is very different from what is required for success in the real world. It's a foundation, a starting point...and then you have to go out work your butt off learn how to apply those basics in the harsh light of real world practicality.

Side note: I'm not anti-education. As a matter of fact I went all the way through graduate school...then I got a job and figured out all of the other things I needed to learn in order to be successful in my career. Writing/Publishing requires the same second phase in the school of hard knocks, even for those with an English degree (if they want to be a commercial success). And, FWIW, the most successful person I've ever had the pleasure to work with started a business that now turns nearly a quarter billion dollars (yep, billion with a B) in annual revenue. His formal education ended with a high school diploma. He doesn't have a university degree, but what he does have is much more valuable: a lot of smarts, a relentless determination, an insatiable appetite for learning, and when something doesn't work out as he imagined... he analyzes why, tries again, and again...until it does. Having a degree, or not having a degree, are not precursors for success or failure.

So frame your degree and hang it on the wall, if you like, and then put aside the ego that tells you it can't be anything about your writing that's holding you back, and really analyze what's missing. If that sounds too hard, or you really believe you'll have to "sell out" and write only drab stories that are "safe and comfortable" you probably will enjoy finding a new venture that better suits you.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

Just wanted to pipe in and say that you're not entirely crazy with the "I'm Getting Buried" feeling. The algorithms benefit books that benefit themselves. Or, in less cryptic terms, if a book is doing well with lots of purchases from lots of different places, the algorithms give them a boost. But if a book is not doing well, the algorithms will give them less visibility. You have to invest lots and lots of money in advertising to get eyes from lots of different places on your book in order to be an algorithmically anointed one. And past sales determine a book's visibility, so if you're not selling well, a small boost from a small ad site is not going to do it. You're not just fighting current sales, but the history of sales on a book. I have one book that folks have said is the greatest book I've ever written, but the sales have always stunk. On days where it was selling the same as some of my other titles, its rankings were much lower. It is what it is.

I get the sense your frustration is not artistic, but you are frustrated with the lack of financial return for your time and money. That's a good place to be because it means you've figured out what you want and don't want. So, if I were you and wanting to turn things around? I'd burn it to the ground and start fresh. There is no way to fight five years of lackluster sales. The algos ARE stacked against you and it is good to just acknowledge it and move on. These particular titles and your author name have too much to fight against. If your goal is sales, launch a new genre specific pen name (and use a specific pen name for each genre. Readers get really, really confused if you write romance AND sci-fi AND horror AND non-fiction). Write novel length books (defined as a minimum of 50k words.) Pick up the Indie Author Survival Guide (Second Edition) (Crafting a Self-Publishing Career Book 1) and follow every word. And consider these past five years as your MFA in publishing. It cost you much less than a normal MFA and, in some cases, even paid out a little. It isn't lost time. It was an investment in your education. Use what you've learned and launch from there.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

valeriec80 said:


> If your goal is to make money, being "good" isn't important. Writing books that people want to read is. One way to do this is to write similarly to what's selling well.
> 
> I resisted doing this for years and over 50 novels. Then I struggled to figure out how to do it for a couple more. Finally I got close, and since I've been publishing frequent releases written to market, I've been making low five figures a month.
> 
> The stuff I wrote before still doesn't sell.


This and maybe take Sela's advice, although it'll work for you if you write paranomral romance and sci-fi fantasy. 
As to shorter books (not) selling, I beg to differ: There are booklets written for the market which sell like crazy at 2.99 for like 20 pages. Look this: https://www.amazon.com/Deer-Woman-Courtney-Vaughn-ebook/dp/B01LPM1VAE/ref=zg_bs_8624166011_5
and the rest of the also-boughts. A few days ago this book was under the 1000 sales rank or something like that.
Actually, I intended to start a thread titled something like: "short reads, the new trend"

I beg, the refunds are higher and the borrows are more than the boughts, but seems like a new trend. I also bet, all the authors published those books under pseudonyms.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Antara Mann said:


> This and maybe take Sela's advice, although it'll work for you if you write paranomral romance and sci-fi fantasy.
> As to shorter books (not) selling, I beg to differ: There are booklets written for the market which sell like crazy at 2.99 for like 20 pages. Look this: https://www.amazon.com/Deer-Woman-Courtney-Vaughn-ebook/dp/B01LPM1VAE/ref=zg_bs_8624166011_5
> and the rest f the also-boughts. A few days ago this book was under the 1000 sales rank or something like that.
> Actually, I intended to start a thread titled something like: "short reads, the new trend"
> ...


I wouldn't use those books as an example of shorts doing well. Those authors (or author, since all the covers look similar) aren't trying to build a career. One book per author and a Freebooksy ad, rinse and repeat. I'm not sure what else they're doing, but that's what's known.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> If, as you say, you've written/published 60 titles that aren't selling... that indicates an issue with reader engagement.


Or it could be price. Or it could be length. Or it could be the title. Or it could be the pace at which new work comes out. Or it could be the cover. It could even be the author section, or the fact that readers can't find the other books. I thought of something this morning at breakfast:

I bundle these books into larger works, and even though those bundles are a much better buy and much more comparable to other books in the military sci-fi/space opera genre on a price/pages basis, they don't sell _at all_. Now why is that? They are the same material with a better price!

The reason they don't sell is because readers can't find them. Let's say a reader lands on the page for book 3 in my series. They can probably find book one pretty easily because everything is the same except for one digit. But unless they click over to my author page, they'll never know they can get books one, two and three for a discount because the bundle isn't visible to them. The books aren't tanking because of the writing--they have exactly the same writing as their component stories that are outselling them five to one. They are tanking because they are *invisible*.

The author has to know all these things going in, otherwise they are likely to conclude there is something terribly wrong with their writing, story, etc. when in reality the reason their book isn't selling has nothing whatsoever to do with the writing. I'll give you a great example of this problem that took place in Hollywood: _John Carter_.

Disney made a film based on books written by a man called "the most influential author in the history of mankind." Edgar Rice Burroughs was very likely responsible for the entirety of 20th century speculative fiction in all its forms, at least in the U.S. Disney hired a two-time Academy Award winning director, cast a fair number A-list actors, spent $250 million on special effects and produced a movie that still has a rabid worldwide audience years later. _ John Carter_ came out about the same time as _The Hunger Games_, which was based on a book that isn't even in the same solar system as the John Carter of Mars series, which had half the budget and which was not directed by a two-time Oscar winner.

Which movie won at the box office? Well, _Hunger Games_ had three sequels and has grossed well over a billion dollars. _John Carter_ faded quickly and has never been heard from again.

Now why did _John Carter_ tank? It sure as hell wasn't the source material, or the director, or the screenplay. Critics loved the lavish special effects and the spectacle. It grossed $284 million worldwide, mostly overseas. What could it be? What could it be?

If you take the time to study the situation, what happened becomes crystal clear. _ John Carter_ was a Dick Cook project. He was the Disney studio director for years. He was fired by Bob Iger, who became CEO after Michael Eisner stepped down. Iger bought Marvel and Star Wars and wanted to promote them instead of _John Carter._ So Iger spiked the marketing budget and refused to promote the film. He wasted $350 million of shareholder money in the process. As an added little bonus they dropped "of Mars" from the title because _Mars needs Moms_ bombed the year before. All that did was confuse audiences. Oh they said it was because they wanted more female appeal, but it didn't work, did it? I'd like to note for the record that this film was handled by industry pros who do marketing for a living and all have buildings full of people helping them.

The irony, of course, is that Stan Lee and George Lucas were both heavily influenced by Edgar Rice Burroughs and probably wouldn't have been as successful without their experiences reading the Barsoom novels.

The bottom line is this: Creative projects don't always fail because the writer sucks. Most of the time it's something ticky-tacky and mechanical like "I couldn't find the buy button" or "what bundle?"

I should also point out my complaint isn't that I've sold no books. The first book in my series got into the top 15,000 on the UK store and I've sold 2000 books on Amazon overall. My complaint is that I can't keep any of these books visible even if I release new work every week. What I've discovered is that Amazon is built on the film model and not the television model. Your opening weekend is what counts, not the cliffhanger in week 12.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

NeedWant said:


> I wouldn't use those books as an example of shorts doing well. Those authors (or author, since all the covers look similar) aren't trying to build a career. One book per author and a Freebooksy ad, rinse and repeat. I'm not sure what else they're doing, but that's what's known.


Yes, I read about the Freebooksy ad in one of the reviews; I wouldn't personally do such a thing, especially under my pen name, but with a working sales page, i.e cover, title and blurb, one can sell even those booklets for $2.99. Amusingly, some longer books priced at $2.99 don't sell as well as those stories. So, it's all about the branding and writing for the market. 
I'm surprised that there are readers who actually buy and even like those pamphlets.


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

justphil said:


> The bottom line is this: Creative projects don't always fail because the writer sucks. _*Most of the time it's something ticky-tacky and mechanical like "I couldn't find the buy button" or "what bundle?"*_


<emphasis mine>

You really aren't giving readers much credit.

Anyway, this has been an interesting thread. You've received 200+ responses, offering many nuggets of good advice. It doesn't sound as though you'll take any of them, but I will. And I'm sure many others reading along have pocketed some valuable take aways as well.

Now, I must return to writing my 400-page romance (actually, it's probably more like 325). 

Seriously though, best of luck to you. You're firm in your position and I hope you find a way to make it work for you that you're happy with.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> I'm surprised that there are readers who actually buy and even like those pamphlets.


Well, we've got a ton of experts reading this thread, so let's have a discussion shall we? Let's see what we can learn about marketing on Amazon!

Here's your book, my fellow authors:

It's selling 20 copies a day based on its rank and has a four star rating over four reviews. It's 23 pages long (6000 words maybe?) and sells for $2.99. You've all indicated you want to critique a book, so here's your chance. You tell all of us why this book is making $1200 a month. Why don't we start with the writing in the sample? Show us where all the time and effort were invested. Show us the money spent on the editor and the proofreader. Show us the pro cover and the gripping blurb. Show us the hook. What's in the sample that's going to make you want to keep reading this book?

I'm genuinely curious. Why are readers buying this book?


_sorry -- it's not appropriate to link to books by others for purposes of critique/criticism that they haven't asked for. Feel free to PM us if you have questions. -- Ann_


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> You really aren't giving readers much credit.


With all due respect, you're not giving me much credit either. You totally ignored the John Carter example. Why?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

John Carter: Rotten Tomatoes says "rotten." 51% critics score, 60% audience score.

And that would be an audience that presumably likes exactly this kind of movie, or they wouldn't have gone. The movie tanked because it didn't satisfy its audience. It had no legs. A certain number of people went to see it, but they didn't go see it again. They didn't tell their friends. They didn't post on Facebook what a good movie it was. 

If you're sure you can't have done anything wrong, that you don't need to look at your writing . . . Even though you've advertised free books, people have picked them up, and very few have gone on to pay money for another book (problem with story) . . . Or you've advertised free books and people HAVEN'T picked them up (problem with blurb, cover, premise) . . . 

If you're somebody who does the same exact thing that isn't working for FIVE YEARS and writes 60 titles that way, refusing to change even when people point out the problems? 

Yes. You probably should hang it up. You aren't going to get better, because you aren't going to try to improve, because you don't think you NEED to improve. 

Those of us who sell are always, always trying to improve. I write my books with three alpha readers following along to tell me what's working and what isn't. Where they are confused, where they aren't liking the main characters. That doesn't mean I change the characters; it means I tweak the presentation so I can show them in a sympathetic light. Somehow, the vision in my head didn't reach the page. I have betas. I've used a developmental editor. I read my reviews. I edit my work obsessively. I try to keep my ego out of my d*mn way. I can either listen to an alpha/beta/editor, or I can hear it from reviewers. One way or the other, I will hear it. 

And I'm an author who writes exactly what I want to write! I don't write to a formula other than following the most basic conventions of my genre. I do some things that are pretty unusual. I don't study the market. I don't follow trends. 

But I DO try to satisfy my audience. 

Again: OP obviously won't hear this. This is for anybody else who's reading. The most successful authors I know work HARD to make their work their best, and to keep on making it better. They go back and re-edit their early books, because they know so much more now. They put new covers on books that are selling, to see if they can make them sell better. They're trying to market better, yes, but they're also trying to WRITE better. That's how you stay up in this game, because that ain't easy. Lots of people do well for a few months or a year or a book. Fewer people do well month after month, year after year. Think about the number of authors who sell very well for 5, 10, 15 years. Not many. It takes constant effort, and not just on the marketing side.


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

justphil said:


> With all due respect, you're not giving me much credit either. You totally ignored the John Carter example. Why?


Maybe ... just maybe ...

Hunger Games came out with a current, rabid fan base, completely different in demographics from those who even remember a decades old series?

These compare and contrast examples are really quite meaningless.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> Well, we've got a ton of experts reading this thread, so let's have a discussion shall we? Let's see what we can learn about marketing on Amazon!
> 
> It's selling 20 copies a day based on its rank and has a four star rating over four reviews. It's 23 pages long (6000 words maybe?) and sells for $2.99. You've all indicated you want to critique a book, so here's your chance. You tell all of us why this book is making $1200 a month. Why don't we start with the writing in the sample? Show us where all the time and effort were invested. Show us the money spent on the editor and the proofreader. Show us the pro cover and the gripping blurb. Show us the hook. What's in the sample that's going to make you want to keep reading this book?
> 
> I'm genuinely curious. Why are readers buying this book?


Over the past two weeks a group of scammers signed up for Freebooksy ads. Freebooksy is one of the few that doesn't have human eyes checking books (one would think that will change after this). The people booked Freebooksy ads for free titles and then immediately changed the price right after the blast went out. People "accidentally" bought the book when they thought it was free (which was obviously the intention). A lot of people have screwed up also bought because of it.
https://www.freebooksy.com/2016/09/18/freebooksy-thriller-feature-2016-09-18/

_Edited quoted post. --Betsy_


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

justphil said:


> With all due respect, you're not giving me much credit either. You totally ignored the John Carter example. Why?


Why? This is why:



Rosalind J said:


> John Carter: Rotten Tomatoes says "rotten." 51% critics score, 60% audience score.
> 
> And that would be an audience that presumably likes exactly this kind of movie, or they wouldn't have gone. The movie tanked because it didn't satisfy its audience. It had no legs. A certain number of people went to see it, but they didn't go see it again. They didn't tell their friends. They didn't post on Facebook what a good movie it was.


And this...



J.A. Sutherland said:


> Maybe ... just maybe ...
> 
> Hunger Games came out with a current, rabid fan base, completely different in demographics from those who even remember a decades old series?
> 
> These compare and contrast examples are really quite meaningless.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> The movie tanked because it didn't satisfy its audience.


Not so fast.

Let's examine this question a little closer. What would have satisfied its audience? Well, we could have started with Disney demonstrating they had some respect for the project. They could have kept "of Mars" in the title for openers. They could have produced a trailer that didn't p*ss off the entire planet (no pun intended). They could have made some effort to engage critics and the press (they didn't). They could have made a poster that had something to do with the movie (it didn't).

They could have refrained from publicly announcing a *$200M writedown* (because John Carter was, in their words, "performing poorly") ten days into the film's theatrical run. Rich Ross turned John Carter into the "flop of the century" in the space of 12 hours. It was an unprecedented public execution by Disney of its own film that shocked the entertainment world from the New York Times to Wall Street to Hollywood. No studio had ever done that before and no studio has done it since.

What you see on Rotten Tomatoes is just the aftermath. So again, it's not as simple as you'd like to make it. Bob Iger spiked John Carter, his own director and $350 million dollars of someone else's money to score political points. To then go on to say John Carter of Mars is somehow flawed doesn't even pass the laugh test.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Hunger Games came out with a current, rabid fan base


Hunger Games was marketed. John Carter wasn't.



> completely different in demographics from those who even remember a decades old series?


How many Tarzan movies have there been in the last 20 years? Tarzan and John Carter were published in the same year. How about War of the Worlds? (Older than both)

Stop looking for pat answers. It's not that simple.


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

justphil said:


> Not so fast.
> 
> Let's examine this question a little closer. What would have satisfied its audience? Well, we could have started with Disney demonstrating they had some respect for the project. They could have kept "of Mars" in the title for openers. They could have produced a trailer that didn't p*ss off the entire planet (no pun intended). They could have made some effort to engage critics and the press (they didn't). They could have made a poster that had something to do with the movie (it didn't).
> 
> ...


I'm totally missing the intended parallel here... Content of the movie aside, you're comparing things that Disney did to a movie that you believe made it fail? I'm lost. In the case of your books, you are self-published. You control the title, the promo, the blurb, the content... the whole enchilada. You didn't sell the rights to your book to Amazon and then have to sit back and watch as they changed it all up on you. Amazon provided you a platform from which to promote and sell your book. End of story.

Why do you want to spend so much time justifying external forces at play when something fails instead of harnessing that time and energy toward looking at why other things are working? It seems counterproductive.

Again, best of luck. Really signing off this time. We clearly both have unchangeable perspectives.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Over the past two weeks a group of scammers


Did the poor, blundering readers also give the book four and five-star reviews by accident?



> People "accidentally" bought the book when they thought it was free (which was obviously the intention).


Why didn't they return it and then scream at Amazon and Freebooksy?

Why is the book still on the Freebooksy site?

Is this how it is for a book that doesn't follow the above narrative and advice? You did everything wrong and still sold a ton, therefore you're a scammer?

And people actually wonder why some authors refuse to link their books.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> I'm totally missing the intended parallel here


Then I'll spell it out for you: Good projects sometimes fail due to factors that have nothing to do with the quality of the work. John Carter is conclusive irrefutable proof. Disney went *way* out of it's way to publicly strangle John Carter because they didn't want it competing with their $8 billion worth of acquisitions. It had nothing to do with whether it was a good film or a good story.


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

justphil said:


> Hunger Games was marketed. John Carter wasn't.
> 
> How many Tarzan movies have there been in the last 20 years? Tarzan and John Carter were published in the same year. How about War of the Worlds? (Older than both)
> 
> Stop looking for pat answers. It's not that simple.


"It's not that simple." Yet, you insist it's as simple as marketing?

There is no amount of marketing which would have made John Carter, a decades old property, do as well as Hunger Games, a new property with a fan base already clamoring for a movie before it was even announced there'd be one.


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

justphil said:


> Then I'll spell it out for you: Good projects sometimes fail due to factors that have nothing to do with the quality of the work. John Carter is conclusive irrefutable proof. Disney went *way* out of it's way to publicly strangle John Carter because they didn't want it competing with their $8 billion worth of acquisitions. It had nothing to do with whether it was a good film or a good story.


"Good project" and "quality of work" are subjective.

I watched John Carter. It sucked. That's subjective and it's how people decide whether to watch something or read something.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Famous Flops: 'John Carter' Became Shorthand For 'Box Office Bomb':



> More importantly, the film was very much not the kind of iconic fantasy adventure that was going to connect with audiences on a culture zeitgeist level which would translate into the $625-$770 million worldwide that the picture needed in worldwide theatrical to break even. The film was not anywhere near good enough and crowd pleasing enough to justify its expense, in terms of actual onscreen production values, in terms of would-be fail safes like star power or brand awareness, and in terms of being the kind of breakout adventure that kids would talk about with glee on Monday morning. Once the reviews rolled in, it was game over.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Kudos to the op for diverting the discussion away from anything he could do and he's now picking apart other author's books on Amazon and movies. That will really solve his problem about engaging readers   And again shows he doesn't want to take a critical look at his work and style but would rather blame external factors.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

AliceW said:


> Kudos to the op for diverting the discussion away from anything he could do and he's now picking apart other author's books on Amazon and movies. That will really solve his problem about engaging readers  And again shows he doesn't want to take a critical look at his work and style but would rather blame external factors.


Haha I was just about to edit my post with remarks to the same.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> There is no amount of marketing which would have made John Carter


Well I guess we'll never know. Will we?



> a decades old property


Nancy Drew, Jungle Book, Tarzan, Alien, War of the Worlds, Star Trek, Star Wars, Frankenstein, Dracula, The Mummy, Hercules, The Iliad, Spider-Man, Thor, The Hulk, Captain America, Superman, Batman, Sailor Moon, Mad Max, Rocky, Mission Impossible, Cinderella, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, Macbeth, Jurassic Park, Terminator, Alice in Wonderland, Paddington, X-men.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.


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## francismills959 (Sep 25, 2016)

Hello there,
This subject actually connects to a much more pressing concern. The internet has fooled us all. All these websites that give individuals the power to publish their work be it books, art, music are giving false hope. Sure, some will succeed but very few. Most of us will just be fooled, wasting our time and then getting no results. Out of lets say 10,000 books published on Createspace, 10 will sell the other 9,990 will fail. The chances that you're book will be in the latter category are high. Whatever you do you will never be in the 10. Now the real trick is to realise what is going on and hang it up fast before you've wasted too much of your time.
I've tried promoting art projects on the internet for years and they never get anywhere. Music on Youtube, Book on createspace, Comic books on deviant art....it's all good if you just do it for a hobby, but if you're not super talented and you are just good or average it ain't gonna go anywhere. There's so many available products that no one knows what to look for, so in the end they just go for the known authors, that never made it on the net anyway....the known bands that never made it on the net anyway......the internet doesn't lead anywhere. 20 years now and it hasn't led anywhere..... 
There's so many books released on Createspace, many of them good but it still has no impact because of the vastness of the internet. The amount of people releasing books.

So as I said, I'd say hang it up and move on, you'll find something better.
The internet......about 20 years old now....and I think it's ending......
Everything has an end... the end of the internet is coming.........


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Kudos to the op for diverting the discussion away from anything he could do


Kudos to you for sticking to the assumption that books fail exclusively because their authors suck at writing.

You do realize if we can produce a single example of a book that changed none of its writing, but instead changed its visibility through marketing, blurb and cover and then sold better, it proves you wrong.

You do realize that. Don't you?


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

justphil said:


> Well I guess we'll never know. Will we?
> 
> Nancy Drew, Jungle Book, Tarzan, Alien, War of the Worlds, Star Trek, Star Wars, Frankenstein, Dracula, The Mummy, Hercules, The Iliad, Spider-Man, Thor, The Hulk, Captain America, Superman, Batman, Sailor Moon, Mad Max, Rocky, Mission Impossible, Cinderella, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, Macbeth, Jurassic Park, Terminator, Alice in Wonderland, Paddington, X-men.
> 
> I could go on, but I think I've made my point.


No, you haven't. Most of those you mention have ongoing popularity and established fanbases in the medium. Regardless, you want to blame marketing?

Fine. So go market and see what happens.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> Did the poor, blundering readers also give the book four and five-star reviews by accident?
> 
> Why didn't they return it and then scream at Amazon and Freebooksy?
> 
> ...


Do I think purposely misleading an advertiser and putting a book up for free and then immediately changing it to paid with the sole intention of suckering people into one-clicking the book and confusing them is scamming? Yes. Sorry. That's just the way I roll. It's FreeBooksy. Free is right in the title. How do you know people haven't been screaming to Amazon and FreeBooksy? I happen to know several people screaming to FreeBooksy. It's not technically Amazon's fault because they don't control the advertising so I'm not sure what good blaming Amazon does (even though I know it's your favorite pastime). The book has four reviews (three are obviously suspect when you look at them). Also, we have no idea how many were returned. You get the ranking boost even when a book is returned, so we have no way of knowing.
I believe the root of the problem is that you want to hear that you're an undiscovered genius and 'The Man' is keeping you down. In this case, Amazon would be 'The Man.' The problem is, you're keeping yourself down. People have been talking about what works and what doesn't for years on this board. Shorts are always going to be a tough sell. Full novels sell better and they have more long-term marketability. I don't think anyone is arguing that. You seem to want to hear that you're doing everything right and everyone else is wrong. That's not the way the world works.
And, as for John Carter, you can say all you want that people couldn't possibly find fault with the source material but I found the book boring. It wasn't my thing. Does that make it bad? No. Doesn't mean I want to read it. Doesn't mean I want to see a movie. Coming up with a litany of reasons for John Carter to fail, including blaming Disney, is mildly hilarious. That's like blaming a book editor or proofreader for a book not selling. All that matters is that a product which didn't hit the tropes or market expectations was put out ... and failed. Was it the source material? Was it the marketing? Was it the poor casting? It doesn't matter. Everything came together for a terrible movie that flopped.
Your job as an author is to give readers what they want. If you're not putting out what readers want, you have no one to blame but yourself. Yes, you can do everything right and still not make it. You increase your odds exponentially if you give readers what they want, though. You don't appear to care about what readers want. You're only worried about what you want.


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

justphil said:


> Kudos to you for sticking to the assumption that books fail exclusively because their authors suck at writing.
> 
> You do realize if we can produce a single example of a book that changed none of its writing, but instead changed its visibility through marketing, blurb and cover and then sold better, it proves you wrong.
> 
> You do realize that. Don't you?


There are a lot of factors.

What's your target market for these books?

Do you know the over/under sales you'll need to maintain visibility in the category top 100?

What's your review percentage?

Have you analyzed your pricing within your category?

And, as others have made the point, do your books meet the expectations of that market?


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

justphil said:


> Well I'll tell you what, Tim. If I take the advice of some of the people in this thread and either write a new longer work or compile one of my series into a single book, I'll link that as soon as it's published and you can see if the "this guy can't write" consensus is the right one. How's that?


Phil, forgive me if someone else has pointed this out; I'm getting too frustrated to follow my usual rule of "read the whole thread before commenting."

In your opening post you said you weren't going to link your name or books lest some malicious spirit here take a dump on your work.

Throughout the thread you've said you're (a) selling squat and (b) probably going to "hang it up" and leave Amazon.

(a) and (b) being the case, what possible difference can it make to you at this point if someone "vandalizes" your reviews? Will it bust your sales and you won't make enough this month to pay the mortgage? Then your sales can't be that bad. Will it give you a bunch of bad reviews on Amazon? Then you must still be worried about maintaining a good presence there, which means you're not really planning to leave.

The reasons you give are not making sense. This tells me that either you're hiding something, or you are not fully understanding something. Which then makes me wonder whether you may be either hiding, or not fully understanding, something about why your books aren't selling.

OR it may be that you don't really want to do whatever work you know or suspect is necessary to make the changes that will take your 1Mw catalog from "failing" to "succeeding" in which case, why complain?

As a final question before I write this thread off, when you say you've "bundled your works together" - does this mean you've taken something that was written as a serial and smashed it all together so that instead of "The Story: Part 1," "The Story: Part 2" and so on for 3, 4, and 5 it's now just "The Story"? If you did, did you go back through and (I hate to use this word because I know what your reaction will be, and trust me, that's not my angle) edit it so that it's a smooth-flowing single story and not five discrete stories superglued together?

Or does it mean that you took "The Story of Joe" and combined it into a collection along with "The Tale of Frank" and "Blue: A Color" and "What I Did This Summer" and are now selling it as "The Collected Tales of a Soon-To-Be Insurance Salesman: Assorted Stories of Romance" or Sci-Fi or Literature? Because that's not likely to sell any better than your smaller offerings, as illustrated by the anecdote I shared here.

Something or some things about your tale here don't make sense to me. If you're determined to pack it in and just want some handshakes and sympathy as you leave the building, say so. If you'd really like to make it work, give people what they need to help you. Is it perhaps galling that there are some people here who are far more successful than you are yet don't have your sterling credentials? I get it. But if you give them the chance to help and then take their advice, in a few months you can have both your sterling credentials AND a comparable measure of success.

Or you can walk away and tell yourself you did everything you could, knowing you left a treasure trove of advice and proffered assistance sitting by the wayside.

My mother has a saying: [Crap] or get off the pot.

Apologies for the frustrated tone. I've just broken off a relationship with someone who was a really nice guy but was so persistently negative and unwilling to take advice or accept help that I - _me!_ nicknamed "Eeyore" by my closest friends! - can't take it any more. This thread is like a flashback.


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## stacia_s (Jul 15, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> You don't appear to care about what readers want. You're only worried about what you want.


Thank you, Amanda, for summing up this thread in a nutshell. Ultimately OP, it appears that you want to keep doing whatever it is you're doing regardless of what anybody thinks or what has proven for others to be successful. So go do it. You don't care what we think. You don't care what reader's buying habits say they want. So just do you, bro. Maybe you'll buck every tradition, ignore everything that's worked before and be an outrageous success. Or maybe you'll end up selling insurance like a couple English majors that I know.

Either way, you've made it clear that input and feedback are decidedly not what you are after. A lot of people seem to be happy with Amazon, but nothing about publishing is one-size-fits-all.. You seem determined to go your own way. Good luck with that.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

justphil said:


> Kudos to you for sticking to the assumption that books fail exclusively because their authors suck at writing.
> 
> You do realize if we can produce a single example of a book that changed none of its writing, but instead changed its visibility through marketing, blurb and cover and then sold better, it proves you wrong.


So why haven't you?

Instead of attacking the work of other authors and blaming Amazon why don't you prove me wrong by changing your marketing, covers and blurbs and becoming the bestseller you keep claiming your writing should make you?

If it's that simple, why aren't you doing something instead of spending years starting threads that belabour the same dead horse of all these external factors being responsible for the fact you have no sales, instead of taking a hard critical look at your writing and reader engagement?

Why don't you take one of your brilliantly written but zero sales books and change nothing except a new cover, book a promo spot and then come back and link when the book cracks the top 100 overall on Amazon. I'll sit here and wait.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> What's your target market for these books?


Military sci-fi fans and their ancillary markets.



> Do you know the over/under sales you'll need to maintain visibility in the category top 100?


Somewhere in the high 20s a day.



> What's your review percentage?


About five percent.



> Have you analyzed your pricing within your category?


On a price to pages basis, my books are about 200% too expensive.



> And, as others have made the point, do your books meet the expectations of that market?


If they don't, nobody has complained.

J.A., your own work proves my point. You're selling 20 copies of your Alexis Carew book a day (it's two years old). Mad Cow isn't selling at all. Both were written by the same person, so it can't be the writing now, can it?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> J.A., your own work proves my point. You're selling 20 copies of your Alexis Carew book a day (it's two years old). Mad Cow isn't selling at all. Both were written by the same person, so it can't be the writing now, can it?


I think you answered your own question. One is a short and one is a novel. One is a series. One is a standalone. The author is the same but the products are different. You just proved what everyone has been telling you. Some things resonate with readers. Some don't.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

justphil said:


> If they don't, nobody has complained.
> 
> J.A., your own work proves my point. You're selling 20 copies of your Alexis Carew book a day (it's two years old). Mad Cow isn't selling at all. Both were written by the same person, so it can't be the writing now, can it?


Phil,
They're not going to complain--that would mean they care. They obviously don't care, and they indicate that by not buying more. It's that simple. When readers like a story, they come back for more, they tell people, the book sells well.

Having a book that sells better than another, written by the same author just means one story resonated with readers more than another.

It's all about the story. It's not about marketing. Marketing can help, but only if the story is great to begin with.

You seem resistant to the possibility that your stories could be more compelling. I'm not sure why, if you really do want to improve sales. Maybe you just want to vent?


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Or maybe you'll end up selling insurance like a couple English majors that I know.


There you go. Take a swipe at the English majors. Those losers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Spielberg


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> There you go. Take a swipe at the English majors. Those losers.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Spielberg


I do have to hand it to you. I honestly don't know how you do it, but you always manage to go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with anything. It reminds me of college ... when we used to use a hubcap as an ashtray and kept an ounce of pot sitting on the middle of the coffee table. We did love our tangents back in the day.


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

justphil said:


> Military sci-fi fans and their ancillary markets.
> 
> Somewhere in the high 20s a day.
> 
> ...


AC#1 is two years old, yes, but I put #4 on prerelease in August. These sales are dropping now as the new eyes are used up and will drop more in December after #4's been out long enough.

Mad Cow is a different genre and a short work -- as well, it's somewhat off-putting in its content. It doesn't meet the shifter tropes. I can write the best damned story about a were-cow there ever might be, but that doesn't create a market for it.

That no one's complained you aren't hitting the expectations might mean little -- "meh" is a reaction.

So you're admittedly overpriced for the market. Is there a lower priced entry point for a series, or not? Are you in KU? (sorry if these have been answered) What's my risk in trying your work compared to the book next to yours? $6.99 vs. $3.99 and I might try the $3.99 -- like it and I'm off in that series and you're relegated to page 97 of my fiction wishlist.

Are your books solidly within mil-scifi? Mine aren't -- I have a realistic expectation that a significant portion of that market is going to see glowing blue sails and walk away.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I do have to hand it to you. I honestly don't know how you do it, but you always manage to go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with anything.


It's a defence mechanism because despite flogging the same topic 2 years ago, he still isn't prepared to change or do anything productive to move forward. It's easier to deflect, change the subject or point the finger at others than to actually do the hard work to pinpoint the problem. You'll also note that he hasn't taken anyone up on their incredibly kind offers to work behind the scenes with him to figure out the issue.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> One is a short and one is a novel. One is a series. One is a standalone. The author is the same but the products are different.


Three things that have nothing to do with the writing.

Now if ol' J.A. came in here complaining that Mad Cow isn't selling and he can't figure out why, what would Kboards say? "Well, J.A. I guess you ought to take a real hard look at your writing because that's obviously the problem."

Except for the little matter of ol' J.A. writing that Alexis Crew series.

At this point even if I linked a book and you liked it you'd say it's the worst book you've ever read to save face. Then again, it never occurs to you most would rather not announce publicly their stuff ain't selling.

Unless they're Disney and the shareholders are paying to clean up the mess.



> but you always manage to go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with anything


I only brought up my degree once, and the only reason I did was to demonstrate that my book isn't riddled with misspelled words, tense changes and incomplete sentences.



> I can write the best damned story about a were-cow there ever might be, but that doesn't create a market for it.


QED


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## Kevin Lee Swaim (May 30, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I do have to hand it to you. I honestly don't know how you do it, but you always manage to go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with anything. It reminds me of college ... when we used to use a hubcap as an ashtray and kept an ounce of pot sitting on the middle of the coffee table. We did love our tangents back in the day.


"One trick is to tell em stories that don't go anywhere - like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. "Give me five bees for a quarter," you'd say. Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn't have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones&#8230;"-Grandpa Simpson


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## stacia_s (Jul 15, 2015)

justphil said:


> There you go. Take a swipe at the English majors. Those losers.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Spielberg


It's not a swipe, it's the truth. All of the Nursing majors I know work as nurses. All of the Engineering majors are engineers. An English major is incredibly difficult to monetize, especially if you're not willing to be adaptable (which you've already proven that you aren't). My mother majored in Journalism and works at a university in administration soliciting donors. The unit secretary where I work is an English major and before that she worked for Geico. A number of English majors have successful careers related to the content of their major, but a lot of them don't. I was speaking anecdotally, as evidenced by the "that I know" and "a couple" which usually means two, btw.

As an aside: My husband is a psychiatrist so I spend too much time around brain shrinkers, but you seem to have a habit of reading things that aren't there. No one has called you a loser or said your writing sucks or said that you have to be a total cookie cutter to sell books, but that seems to be what you keep hearing. In my world, we call these cognitive distortions. Your quote above is a great example of mind-reading. I'm truly not being dismissive when I say that the overwhelmingly negative worldview that you've espoused in the preceding pages of this thread may be affecting your perception of success and failure.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

So there's nothing you can do, because there's nothing wrong with anything you've done and the system is rigged so you'll never succeed. 

What's the point of the thread? To warn any would-be writers that there's no way to succeed?


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Are your books solidly within mil-scifi? Mine aren't -- I have a realistic expectation that a significant portion of that market is going to see glowing blue sails and walk away.


I don't have any sails. I do have space marines, fleet vs. fleet action, capital ships, fighters, pirates, plenty of alcohol consumption, interdimensional aliens, theoretical tech, planet-based big guns, space stations, dozens of different weapons systems, a thriller plot with all kinds of twists, etc.

Price and length are very likely the twin anchors chained to this boat. What I need to do is get the price/pages ratio back where it belongs, and the only way to do that is to cram everything together into a much *much* bigger book, priced like a novel (say $3.99 or $4.99) and just live with the fact there will be times I don't have a book on the new releases list.

I wish I had known this a year ago.


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

justphil said:


> Three things that have nothing to do with the writing.
> 
> Now if ol' J.A. came in here complaining that Mad Cow isn't selling and he can't figure out why, what would Kboards say? "Well, J.A. I guess you ought to take a real hard look at your writing because that's obviously the problem."
> 
> ...


No, not QED. My point is that _there is no market for that book._ There never will be -- it's a curiosity. No amount of marketing will make Mad Cow a hot property and the writing quality is irrelevant. Even though shifters are, I think, still popular, that market won't buy that story and never will. On the other hand, I do virtually _no_ marketing for the AC series -- so I don't understand your fixation on marketing.

Much of the feedback here has had nothing to do with writing quality, it's had to do with whether readers are attracted to the book, _and like it_. That starts with cover, blurb, and then the story -- but we can't give any feedback on those, because you won't share.

And now, really, you've started attacking the integrity of people who entered this thread to offer advice.


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

justphil said:


> I don't have any sails. I do have space marines, fleet vs. fleet action, capital ships, fighters, pirates, plenty of alcohol consumption, interdimensional aliens, theoretical tech, planet-based big guns, space stations, dozens of different weapons systems, a thriller plot with all kinds of twists, etc.
> 
> Price and length are very likely the twin anchors chained to this boat. What I need to do is get the price/pages ratio back where it belongs, and the only way to do that is to cram everything together into a much *much* bigger book, priced like a novel (say $3.99 or $4.99) and just live with the fact there will be times I don't have a book on the new releases list.
> 
> I wish I had known this a year ago.


So do that.

Short works won't do it in that market. I released two short works in my AC series -- no bump, little interest. The readers want the main series and novel length.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> you can say all you want that people couldn't possibly find fault with the source material but I found the book boring.


Ok. Doesn't change the fact it remains one of the most famous works of literature in human history. How many authors do you know who have a city named after one of their characters?



> Coming up with a litany of reasons for John Carter to fail, including blaming Disney, is mildly hilarious.


Please name three other films that were publicly written down by their own studios ten days after release? I can think of one: Treasure Planet. See if you can guess who made Treasure Planet?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> Now if ol' J.A. came in here complaining that Mad Cow isn't selling and he can't figure out why, what would Kboards say? "Well, J.A. I guess you ought to take a real hard look at your writing because that's obviously the problem."
> 
> QED


I think you're confused about what the actual problem is. You seem hung up on writing quality as if it only means one thing. Writing quality means many things. Even if you get every tense, clause, adverb, adjective and semi-colon in the perfect position, that doesn't mean you're writing a good story. "Good" is subjective. It's not even apt. It's fairer to say that you need to write something that the audience approves of. Both are forms of quality, but you seem to think one quality naturally leads to the other, which is completely untrue. You need to tell a story people care about. Just because people aren't lambasting you for grammar mistakes doesn't mean you're telling a good story. That's really neither here nor there, though, because you don't want to hear anything you don't agree with.
No one here has said your writing is crap. They've said they want to help and they can't do that without seeing the product. There's a very big difference that you're apparently incapable of recognizing. You're never going to do that, though, and it's not because of the possibility of drive-bys. It's because you would lose some of that righteous indignation you tend to thrive on.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> Ok. Doesn't change the fact it remains one of the most famous works of literature in human history. How many authors do you know who have a city named after one of their characters?
> 
> Please name three other films that were publicly written down by their own studios ten days after release? I can think of one: Treasure Planet. See if you can guess who made Treasure Planet?


I can't muster the energy to care. The truth is, John Carter was an inferior product. It failed. Case closed. It doesn't matter who did what. The final product sucked. That's why it failed.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Rosalind J said:


> So there's nothing you can do, because there's nothing wrong with anything you've done and the system is rigged so you'll never succeed.
> 
> What's the point of the thread? To warn any would-be writers that there's no way to succeed?


Yes. A thousand times yes.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

* and the writing quality is irrelevant.*

You've just proven everything I've written in this thread. We have 12 pages of tub-thumping about how "your book ain't selling because the writing sucks." Except according to you, the writing quality is irrelevant.

My only purpose in writing this thread is to serve as a warning to other authors. Ultimately, you can give yourself a better _chance_ of success on Amazon by checking all the boxes, but ultimately nobody knows why one book sells and another doesn't. There are other areas in life where you can give yourself a better chance of winning by doing one thing instead of another. Lotteries come to mind.

I may yet cram it all together and try a novel series. I'm just not entirely sure I want to spend weeks and months tweaking blurbs and covers and keywords in the hopes of finding a golden ticket in my next chocolate bar. That sounds a lot like playing a slot machine, and is probably just as expensive. At least when I play slots I get free drinks.

I think it would be a very good idea if someone made a list of all the things you shouldn't do if you are just starting out in self-publishing. My contribution would be "don't write short works." A "television series" of books looks good on paper. Then again, so does a rocket-powered unicycle. The results are about the same.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> The truth is, John Carter was an inferior product.


The truth is John Carter was abandoned and then publicly strangled by Disney so Bob Iger could take credit for the Avengers and Star Wars.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

justphil said:


> I'm just not entirely sure I want to spend weeks and months tweaking blurbs and covers and keywords in the hopes of finding a golden ticket in my next chocolate bar.


And yet you said up thread that that was all it would take. So now you are saying you know exactly what the issue is (covers, blurbs, keywords) but you can't be bothered putting the effort in to sell better. Given you don't want to change or do anything, you have two options. Keep doing the same thing for zero sales, or go find another hobby where you can be pedantic and blame others when you don't succeed. Golf maybe? Or scrapbooking?


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

justphil said:


> * and the writing quality is irrelevant.*
> 
> You've just proven everything I've written in this thread. We have 12 pages of tub-thumping about how "your book ain't selling because the writing sucks." Except according to you, the writing quality is irrelevant.
> 
> ...


Dude, that is the exact opposite of my point. You cannot use my example as proof that "nobody knows why one book sells", when I just gave you specific reasons _why that book won't sell._

And you're completely missing the point of others in the subjective appeal of the story vs. the objective grammar construction and story-telling.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

stacia_s said:


> It's not a swipe, it's the truth. All of the Nursing majors I know work as nurses. All of the Engineering majors are engineers. *An English major is incredibly difficult to monetize, especially if you're not willing to be adaptable (which you've already proven that you aren't).* My mother majored in Journalism and works at a university in administration soliciting donors. The unit secretary where I work is an English major and before that she worked for Geico. A number of English majors have successful careers related to the content of their major, but a lot of them don't. I was speaking anecdotally, as evidenced by the "that I know" and "a couple" which usually means two, btw.


This is so true. My husband has an English degree and he's written lots of things. Has he published any of them? Nope. His job now has nothing to do with an English degree.

I have a science degree and *I'm* the published author.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> * and the writing quality is irrelevant.*
> 
> You've just proven everything I've written in this thread. We have 12 pages of tub-thumping about how "your book ain't selling because the writing sucks." Except according to you, the writing quality is irrelevant.
> 
> ...


Cramming together individual items that don't sell and shoving them in one tome isn't going to make them sell. You have to put out a product that a group of readers wants to shell out money for. Period.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> So there's nothing you can do, because there's nothing wrong with anything you've done and the system is rigged so you'll never succeed.
> 
> What's the point of the thread? To warn any would-be writers that there's no way to succeed?





ebbrown said:


> Yes. A thousand times yes.


OP's words, reply #180, this thread: 
"I'm facing reality and I'm inviting other authors to avoid my mistakes. I think other aspiring writers would appreciate it if someone like myself keeps them from destroying a million words of hard work because they thought there was room for experimentation."

And reply #279, where he just laid it right out: 
"My only purpose in writing this thread is to serve as a warning to other authors. Ultimately, you can give yourself a better chance of success on Amazon by checking all the boxes, but ultimately nobody knows why one book sells and another doesn't. There are other areas in life where you can give yourself a better chance of winning by doing one thing instead of another. Lotteries come to mind."


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## Holland d&#039;Haas (Mar 11, 2015)

(Good lord, you lot. What's going on in this thread?  )



justphil said:


> Did the poor, blundering readers also give the book four and five-star reviews by accident?


I mean... it's not poorly written, from what we can see with the Look Inside. I'm sure it was a happy accident for some readers with a few dollars to spare.



justphil said:


> Is this how it is for a book that doesn't follow the above narrative and advice? You did everything wrong and still sold a ton, therefore you're a scammer?


Um, no. But lying about the price of your book, abusing an advertising outlet, to get adspace you weren't welcome to, will make you out like a scammer :/

---

OP, I don't think anyone here means harm. They just have high hopes for the writers who stumble through here and get frustrated when they're not successful. It means so much to see other people succeeding in the same path you've taken. And this is their path; these are people that have used the system for years, who know what does and doesn't work, and they want to help you make it work. They want to give you advice. It's just hard to pinpoint what you need help with when all they know is hearsay. (Even if there is a systematic problem with how the algorithms handle your books due to some glitch, there's no way to test for that until you've got everything else done right. That's why they want you to get a second opinion on the content and marketing of your books before discussing Amazon's handling of them.) That second (or third or twelfth) opinion will help rule out any bias you might have.

That said: If you're 100% undeniably sure a suggestion isn't relevant to what you're doing, ignore the post. You don't need to explain why when you're providing no examples; you (and your lowest star reviews) know your book best right now.



justphil said:


> Now if ol' J.A. came in here complaining that Mad Cow isn't selling and he can't figure out why, what would Kboards say? "Well, J.A. I guess you ought to take a real hard look at your writing because that's obviously the problem."


You've been offered a ton of possible reasons that your work may not be selling well. Don't get hung up on this one if you're not willing to look further into it. Let's go a few pages back instead: they're quite short, right? To the point where the majority of your bad reviews are related to the length, even. And you noted a few posts back that your price-per-page is three times too high for its category? We know both of these things deter sales, so let's work on that first. Combine the books you can (with new transitions between them to tie it together -- this will encourage previous buyers by providing extra content and make it feel less "smashed together" for new buyers) and get their price point down.

If that doesn't work, move onto updating the obvious stuff: covers, blurbs, keywords. (Even if you think they're perfect, tweak them.) And if none of that works, there's either a problem with your writing, the algorithm, or the concept. Share the book in a way that will get you hardcore criticism (either by private review swapping with other writers, or hiring an editor / proofreader to see what they would change, or using a service built for gathering critiques, etc). If the writing's said to be all good, then fine -- maybe Amazon just hates that book series? i.e. Something in the title or description could be setting a red flag off and getting it hidden from certain searches or countries. Ask Amazon if this is a problem and change things as needed.

Still nothing working? Your intellectual proprety is probably just not appealing to readers of your genre. Everything could be perfect, but it's not catching their eye. Try changing the genre you're marketing it as and repeat the above... Or move on. Some concepts will just never sell well; maybe something in them is uncomfortable enough to deter readers from sharing the story, or they're so far beyond any market that they'd have to get filed under the generic "literary" just to stay above water. I'm sure we all have a fistfull of stories like these in a sub-sub-sub-sub-subfolder on our computers that we may never publish because _they're just not marketable_. It happens. We move on. It's an ego-kick, but it's not the end of days or a sign that self-publishing is bunk.

[Edit: and obviously promote everything as you go, if possible.]



justphil said:


> I may yet cram it all together and try a novel series. I'm just not entirely sure I want to spend weeks and months tweaking blurbs and covers and keywords in the hopes of finding a golden ticket in my next chocolate bar.


Then don't. Move on, either to new book or to a new industry. That's the best you can do if you don't have the time to figure out where your early projects went wrong.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> The truth is John Carter was abandoned and then publicly strangled by Disney so Bob Iger could take credit for the Avengers and Star Wars.


The Avengers and Star Wars? Two properties that hit the tropes and appealed to the masses. Again, the answer is in your complaint.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

justphil said:


> * and the writing quality is irrelevant.*
> 
> You've just proven everything I've written in this thread. We have 12 pages of tub-thumping about how "your book ain't selling because the writing sucks." Except according to you, the writing quality is irrelevant.
> 
> ...


I know of several authors who write novellas and are doing well. Terry Bolryder, Milly Taiden just to name two.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Two properties that hit the tropes and appealed to the masses.


And were heavily influenced by...?

John Carter of Mars! Goodnight Milwaukee!


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> And were heavily influenced by...?
> 
> John Carter of Mars! Goodnight Milwaukee!


They were heavily influence by what the fans wanted to see.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

justphil said:


> The truth is John Carter was abandoned and then publicly strangled by Disney so Bob Iger could take credit for the Avengers and Star Wars.


You are absolutely right, justphil. Disney killed it because they hate, hate, hate making money.


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## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

@justphil I think you should take the next three months and write a 100k dramady about a well educated, arrogant protaganist who is (ironically) ignorant about the reality of the world in which he lives. He can be fighting an evil corporation who is oppressing him. When he cries out for help, he can refuse the offers from his friends in fear that they already hate him and are intentionally giving him bad advice... or worse, are trying to sabotage him. You can have him bounce from job to job -- in short stints and different industries -- over a five year period, yet (ironically again) not gain any traction in his career. When his friends try to give advice about how to build a career, he can point to another person who has failed (in another bit of irony) because of an evil corporation who wouldn't market his fabulous idea.

Oh! Wait. Never mind. I think I've read that story somewhere before.

Seriously though, there is so much good advice in this thread that I have to summarize it.

1. Write the very best story that you can
    -- Good writing isn't the same as a good story
    -- Trope fits genre
    -- Characters are engaging
    -- Story is compelling
    -- Use proper grammar
    -- Word length appropriate to genre
2. Get beta readers and/or a developmental editor specific to your (one and only) chosen genre
    -- Set aside your ego
    -- Know that you're going to feel pain as your work is criticized
    -- Listen to their advice 
    -- Make changes if several people are pointing out the same problem
    -- Rinse and repeat until you've produced a work that people want to read
3. Get a professional cover that is appropriate for the genre
4. Write a blurb that sells books (not a summary of the plot)
5. Spend some money on promotions and advertising
    -- Focus on finding an audience for the type of book you've written
6. Experience low to moderate returns (but better than you've done before)
7. Write the next book in the series (same formula as above)
8. Experience a little more success
9. Rinse and repeat for the next five years
10. Be in a much better place than you are now


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Disney killed it because they hate, hate, hate making money.


They lit $350 million on fire and permanently soured their relationship with the director of Finding Nemo and Wall-E. Perhaps you can explain it?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> They lit $350 million on fire and permanently soured their relationship with the director of Finding Nemo and Wall-E. Perhaps you can explain it?


It sucked. Explanation complete.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Not Lu said:


> Seriously though, there is so much good advice in this thread that I have to summarize it.
> 
> 1. Write the very best story that you can
> -- Good writing isn't the same as a good story
> ...


Great summary! This is how simple (and hard) it is.....but this is the 'formula' if there is one. Write marketable books, with great covers, publish, rinse and repeat!


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

I think this whole discussion has officially made me delirious. I just dissolved into a fit of giggles that somehow this whole "John Carter" thing is still being defended as a massive Disney conspiracy...and in any way, shape or form, related to the original discussion.   

Too funny. From what I can tell, all responses now are just feeding an unusually large need for negativity.

Last suggestion for the OP: I'd recommend reading Steven Pressfield's War of Art. (not a flip recommendation BTW, it's one of my favorite books for making sure I nip negativity and excuses at the bud). I read a lot of "resistance" in your responses - the book helps understand it and how to deal with it.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> that somehow this whole "John Carter" thing is still being defended as a massive Disney conspiracy


The only problem is everything Disney did was public. It was one executive screwing over another executive as loudly and as publicly as possible. Simple as that.

Bob Iger learned at the feet of Michael Eisner, and trust me when I say you don't want me to bring up Eisner.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It sucked. Explanation complete.


I feel like I'm piling on, but 100% truth:

I was SOOOOO looking forward to _John Carter_. (That is still what we're talking about, right? I hope.) I was anticipating it for ages, the trailers pulled me in, I could just TASTE how good it was going to be! I was primed to be blown away by it.

Dragged my son to go with me and...

On the way back out to the car we were both silent. Finally he said, "You know this means I get to drag you to the next horror/gore movie I want to see, right? No excuses." I said, "I know. I'm really sorry. I thought it was gonna be good."

Saying John Carter suffered because Disney sabotaged it is like saying the Titanic sank because the passengers' suitcases were too heavy. Yes, that might have become a problem eventually, but there was a great big honkin' iceberg that made it irrelevant.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

justphil said:


> Kudos to you for sticking to the assumption that books fail exclusively because their authors suck at writing.
> 
> You do realize if we can produce a single example of a book that changed none of its writing, but instead changed its visibility through marketing, blurb and cover and then sold better, it proves you wrong.
> 
> You do realize that. Don't you?


But I don't think that's what most people here are saying. For that matter, I don't think YOU'RE saying that you think you could be selling a ton if you were marketing better, are you? If you are, then why haven't you just done that?

I think the real source of the (sometimes heated) arguments here is that NOBODY really knows anything. Indie publishing is a very fluid and changeable business. A few people like David Gaughran and Phoenix do their best to gather and analyze statistics, people who are successful often offer their analyses of what they think worked for them, lots of people try to follow these 'formulas' with some succeeding and some failing- and the truth of it is, none of us really knows why. Sometimes the people who've been the most adamant about having found THE system find their sales suddenly drying up. Others that no one expected to succeed shoot to the top of the charts. Things that were wildly popular fall suddenly out of fashion, everyone jumps in on the latest marketing platform and all at once that formula is nothing but a money sink. People who remain successful generally try to stay abreast of the changes and adapt as fast as they can, but there's no guarantee that they'll succeed.

Yes, the fact that Amazon's a closed system whose workings we have very little insight into is part of the problem, but the main one is the same thing that's the strength of Indies: It's a system essentially without gatekeepers. It's great as an author to be able to get published without having to kowtow to some editor's opinion of what the market wants and put your work out directly, but as a reader it's a headache that just keeps growing. We keep trying to find a way to judge whether something is going to be worth our time, we get more and more picky about the obvious things: the cover, the blurb, the 'look inside', the reviews- still, we often end up feeling disappointed. I'm very reluctant to download anything for free anymore. I haven't been able to finish the last three books I bought for under $2, so I go back to the writers I already know- even when they're selling for $5- or even $8. At the same time, there's still a big market of readers who are gobbling down the books I'm tossing aside and giving 1 and 2 stars to the books that impress me the most. If all the people like my sister who still only read hardbacks from the library that she's seen reviewed in mainstream publications were added in there would probably be enough money to support quite a few more writers- but outside of that old mainstream publishing model there's still no really good way for audiences to find the writers whose books they would love.

I'm sure this must be extremely frustrating after five years of seeing these ups and downs - hell, I haven't even published yet and I find it frustrating- but it sounds like you have a solid grasp of what you need to do if you're to continue. I look forward to seeing another post after you've started putting our your novel-length military SF.


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## schweinsty (Jul 14, 2014)

On the John Carter topic, because I am a huge movie buff (when I can afford it, I go to the movies 1-3 times/week): I remember when it came out. I haven't read the series, but I knew about it. I'd read a different work by Burroughs and been aghast at the way he wrote a female character, but was still interested enough to have watched it. Unfortunately, I saw the trailer and the CGI looked *atrocious*. I remember nothing about that trailer except that, and I ended up watching another movie based entirely on how awful the graphics looked. And I'm pretty sure Bob Iger wasn't in charge of doing the computer effects for it.

Also, I remember when it came out that nobody at my workplace had any idea it was based on a book. Burroughs was a famous author--decades ago. Now, he's got name recognition among sff & some classic lit fans, but your average 1-5 books/year reader...not so much. Hunger games, on the other hand? I worked at a restaurant at the time, with colleagues primarily aged in their teens/early twenties, and *everyone* was buzzing about it as soon as a movie was announced, before it even started filming, wondering who'd be cast in it/who would direct it/etc.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

SerenityEditing said:


> Saying John Carter suffered because Disney sabotaged it is like saying the Titanic sank because the passengers' suitcases were too heavy.


There's a Titanic conspiracy theory I could get behind!


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

PamelaKelley said:


> Great summary! This is how simple (and hard) it is.....but this is the 'formula' if there is one. Write marketable books, with great covers, publish, rinse and repeat!


*PamelaKelley* and *Not Lu*, and anyone else who wants to chime in: 
Let's say an author follows this sequence and does it well, but lacks any existing fan base - how likely is that to negate the impact of all the rest?

One of my clients writes in secret. Only a handful of people know he writes at all. He's quite good, IMO, but I know (from learning it on KBoards!) that having preorders and an existing mailing-list full of people ready to go buy your book when it comes out is a big boost to visibility and further sales. He has his reasons for not wanting to get his name on anyone's reading-list before he publishes, but will that doom him right out of the gate?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

SerenityEditing said:


> *PamelaKelley* and *Not Lu*, and anyone else who wants to chime in:
> Let's say an author follows this sequence and does it well, but lacks any existing fan base - how likely is that to negate the impact of all the rest?
> 
> One of my clients writes in secret. Only a handful of people know he writes at all. He's quite good, IMO, but I know (from learning it on KBoards!) that having preorders and an existing mailing-list full of people ready to go buy your book when it comes out is a big boost to visibility and further sales. He has his reasons for not wanting to get his name on anyone's reading-list before he publishes, but will that doom him right out of the gate?


No one starts with an existing mailing list or name recognition. Those have to be built.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> So there's nothing you can do, because there's nothing wrong with anything you've done and the system is rigged so you'll never succeed.
> 
> What's the point of the thread? To warn any would-be writers that there's no way to succeed?


I've read a few threads around the internet which start like this one, but usually the OP asks for advice, gets advice and makes some changes. Then they sometimes report back that they saw some improvement in their sales and/or their reviews.

It's clear this OP does not want to accept the advice and kind offers for help from authors like Sela.

There are successful authors all over this forum. If the OP wanted to change his career or situation around, he would take some of the advice and come back in a month or so and report some positive news.

We are all busy people and some of us have limited budgets. If I am going to spend my hard earned money on a book, I want it to be engaging. When I read an author bio, I really don't care if you've got an English degree or if you've worked at a supermarket for 10 years. I want to know that you've written a book that I want to read and if you don't deliver, I will never return to buy anymore books from you. There's too many other authors out there who care what readers want and give it to them.

This thread started 4 days ago.

_In those 4 days you could have:_
1. Put in a request for a professional cover or purchased a ready made cover. 
2. Sent a couple short stories to a couple authors on here to read and give you some helpful feedback. 
3. Worked on your blurbs, maybe with the help of an author on here
4. Worked on your keywords, worked on finding the best categories for your books
5. Bundled, submitted to some promo sites, looked into expanding a book and making it into a novel etc......


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## Jake Kerr (Aug 6, 2014)

As a huge John Carter BOOK fan (I've read the series a few times): That movie sucked in a major way. Any fan of the books has to be appalled at how the script butchered the books.

As a writer, I will say that the books would not be successful today. Writing fashion has changed too much. Burroughs loved exposition, as did a majority of the writers of fantasy in that era. But the stories! Amazing. Changed my life.

And there's the rub: The one thing that was timeless about the books, was the one thing that the movie screwed up.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

jakedfw said:


> As a huge John Carter BOOK fan (I've read the series a few times): *That movie sucked in a major way. *Any fan of the books has to be appalled at how the script butchered the books.
> 
> As a writer, I will say that the books would not be successful today. Writing fashion has changed too much. Burroughs loved exposition, as did a majority of the writers of fantasy in that era. But the stories! Amazing. Changed my life.
> 
> And there's the rub: The one thing that was timeless about the books, was the one thing that the movie screwed up.


Yes to this. The movie was awful IMO


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## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

> PamelaKelley and Not Lu, and anyone else who wants to chime in:
> Let's say an author follows this sequence and does it well, but lacks any existing fan base - how likely is that to negate the impact of all the rest?
> 
> One of my clients writes in secret. Only a handful of people know he writes at all. He's quite good, IMO, but I know (from learning it on KBoards!) that having preorders and an existing mailing-list full of people ready to go buy your book when it comes out is a big boost to visibility and further sales. He has his reasons for not wanting to get his name on anyone's reading-list before he publishes, but will that doom him right out of the gate?


Not necessarily. He'll have to commit to more paid advertising in the beginning than someone with an existing fan base, but if he's written a book people want to read the advertising should pay off in the long run.


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## SM Barrett (Feb 28, 2014)

Two things occur to me in this thread.

One, the complete refusal on the part of the OP to share their titles so we can see the covers, the sample chapters, the blurbs, etc. Now I understand not wanting to share it for all to see, for fear that some might be vindictive with reviews, but what's wrong with picking 5 or so regulars and approaching them privately? Folks with relatively public faces here on Kboards who know that if they did savage the OP in the reviews, they would be seen as petty? There are plenty to trust. 
Not letting anyone see the work is the most telling thing here.
The absence of the OP's work is deafening. You can hear it vibrate throughout every post.
They could discuss the issues here without ever naming the OP's work, so that lurkers could learn from this as much as the OP.

Two is the reviews. There seems to be this assumption at play that because the few readers who do read the work give good reviews, the work has appeal to the market. The lack of negative reviews is seen as validation.
That is false. 
For a writer to have as much material and as many titles as the OP claims, the lack of sales is the proof the work doesn't appeal.
Negative reviews spring from frustrated readers, people who wanted to like the work, were interested enough to give it a try, and were dissatisfied. Negative reviews take time to write, and most people won't bother to take even a few seconds to write them if they don't care.
Negative reviews show at the very least that the author's premise is interesting, that the presentation (cover, blurb, title, price, length, sample chapters) was enough to hook a potential reader, but the work didn't satisfy. So the reader writes a review, to scratch at that maddening itch, to relieve a little pressure from the frustration.

The OP has a lack of sales. That's not a work that interests but leaves something to be desired. That's a sign of apathy. It means readers, for some reason, don't care. They don't care enough to look, to buy, to read more than a chapter or two. That is far more damning to the work than bad reviews.

Lack of negative reviews means squat from what I can tell. Bestsellers have tons of 1 and 2 star reviews, because the book failed those readers who had particular tastes or expectations.
It looks like the OP's work doesn't generate expectation. There is no interest.
That is the real review, and I hope the OP can see that.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> No one starts with an existing mailing list or name recognition. Those have to be built.


I know, but I know many authors who have put out their first book with a fairly substantial (several hundred) mailing list that they've built up by things like blog, Facebook, other forms of social media, friends, family, Kickstarters, writing groups - he's not doing any of that. Assuming he's got a top-notch book when he publishes, is the lack of pre-existing interest a death knell?


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Not Lu said:


> Not necessarily. He'll have to commit to more paid advertising in the beginning than someone with an existing fan base, but if he's written a book people want to read the advertising should pay off in the long run.


Thanks! I'll mention it to him.


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## Northern pen (Mar 3, 2015)

SerenityEditing said:


> I know, but I know many authors who have put out their first book with a fairly substantial (several hundred) mailing list that they've built up by things like blog, Facebook, other forms of social media, friends, family, Kickstarters, writing groups - he's not doing any of that. Assuming he's got a top-notch book when he publishes, is the lack of pre-existing interest a death knell?


Not death knell at all. You don't need friends, family, kickstartes, writing groups or face book to get a good start.

You need interesting book, cover and blurb.And have your amazon cats and keywords on lock down.. Then a well-planned promo launch.

That is all you need.


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## Jake Kerr (Aug 6, 2014)

> Two is the reviews. There seems to be this assumption at play that because the few readers who do read the work give good reviews, the work has appeal to the market. The lack of negative reviews is seen as validation.
> 
> That is false.


Let me give you a case study of my book, The Old Equations (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MSW2II0)

Short work (like the OP's). 
Nominated for two major SF genre awards.
Reprinted in multiple countries.
Promoted on Facebook and Twitter by Hugh Howey. 
Over 20 reviews with an over four star rating.
Most helpful review is a 5 star by Hugh Howey.
Priced at 99 cents.

Using OP logic, this book would be a guaranteed best seller. Current rank: 479,294.

Could I fix that rank with some advertising? Maybe some promotion? A bit. But it's just not worth it because the short fiction market (outside of erotica and erom) at Amazon is dead. The only ones it works for are HUGE writers who have massive fan bases.

OP, please read this:

*Short fiction on Amazon as a strategy doesn't work. It will fail. There is nothing you can do to make it work. Spending any time with short fiction on Amazon is a complete and total waste of time.*

Oh, but what about collections? Those are only slightly better and still are so far behind novels as to not be worth the effort to sell them.

I can't believe I've waded through 14 pages of posts on this when the entire catalog from the OP has fail written all over it just based on its inherent nature.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

SerenityEditing said:


> *PamelaKelley* and *Not Lu*, and anyone else who wants to chime in:
> Let's say an author follows this sequence and does it well, but lacks any existing fan base - how likely is that to negate the impact of all the rest?
> 
> One of my clients writes in secret. Only a handful of people know he writes at all. He's quite good, IMO, but I know (from learning it on KBoards!) that having preorders and an existing mailing-list full of people ready to go buy your book when it comes out is a big boost to visibility and further sales. He has his reasons for not wanting to get his name on anyone's reading-list before he publishes, but will that doom him right out of the gate?


It's nice to have a mailing list, but it's not necessary to do well. It just helps. As Amanda said, we all start without one. I launched a new pen name a few years ago in a new genre, historical romance, and I had nothing. I just worked with what I did have, which was a passion for the genre and an active FB group that I joined full of readers. I also launched it in KU and followed a month later with book 2, these were short novellas, 18k and 25k, books after that averaged 40k.

So that was two years ago....I recently read a book that knocked my socks off....Anni Taylors, The Game You Played. New name, new genre, no list, just a really good book with a great cover...and a story that has really resonated, over 700 reviews since it debuted in May. That's what can happen when you write a great book in a hot genre.

It's just totally all about the book. I think now, even more, to stand out in an increasingly crowded marketplace, quality is going to matter even more. The better the book...and I mean in terms of story-telling, the better it will do.

I think it's exciting, and scary as the bar keeps getting set higher. But I still think this is an incredible opportunity, available to anyone, pretty much equally if the book is good.


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## SM Barrett (Feb 28, 2014)

Jakedfw,

I gotcha. My work has 25 reviews, none below 4 stars, excellent and thorough reviews, read through rate is excellent.

However...
It's a holiday fantasy, meaning seasonal interest. Reads and sales are significant only for a few months of the year.
It's a novel, yes, 56k in length, but it's a stand alone. That's what I wanted, but I knew it would never generate the sort of sales that the premiere of a series would.
It's family friendly. It has plenty of creepiness, certainly, but it isn't the sort of intense horror some readers want in October. That limits the appeal for some, broadens it for others. No book can be all things to all people, not even fans of a particular sub-genre.

Anyone reading Kboards with regularity would know that my chances will increase when I write quality, hooky stories with broader appeal, in novel format, in a series, in a popular genre, with good presentation. Within those parameters, I can be really creative, and still hit the triggers readers are looking for.
To be honest, if I hadn't spent time at places like Konrath's blog, the Passive Voice and here, the ol' Writer's Cafe, I would not have known a lot of this.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> I can't believe I've waded through 14 pages of posts on this when the entire catalog from the OP has fail written all over it just based on its inherent nature.


Then it was length and price, pretty much what I agreed on in the first place. If this discussion served no other purpose, perhaps it will turn aside the next guy who thinks "hey, all I have to do is write quick short books to stay in the new releases list and then bundle them to get the higher royalty! Brilliant!"

Wrong. You'll produce nothing but three miles of wreckage. Don't do it.

Don't be me. Give them what they want or save yourself the frustration. Otherwise you're the guy who is trying to beat the market, which is roughly the same as getting in a wrestling match with a freshly beached nine-foot tiger shark. All we're going to find is a shoe with teeth marks in it.

These are the kinds of things people need to know before they spend five thousand hours beating themselves senseless.

_As stated earlier, do not post books by other authors inviting critique. Use your own to make your points or not at all. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## stacia_s (Jul 15, 2015)

justphil said:


> Give them what they want or save yourself the frustration.


Solid advice for any business endeavor. 10/10. Of course, none of us can figure out why you won't take this advice yourself, but to each their own I guess.


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## SM Barrett (Feb 28, 2014)

justphil said:


> Then it was length and price, pretty much what I agreed on in the first place.


We have no idea. No one has seen your work.


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## Indiecognito (May 19, 2014)

I started out in 2013, writing shorts and selling them for $2.99. It was what I'd read you should do. My first month I made about 11 bucks.
Over time I figured out that I should write something longer, so I wrote a three-part romantic serial. It sold some copies. I think I pulled in about $400 in a month. 
Then I wrote my first novel. Not a massive tome, but a novel. And within months, I was making enough to live. Then I was making a lot more than I needed to live.

I made a buttload of mistakes. My first covers were awful. I was convinced that I could be this creative genius who turned the tide of publishing, attract new readers because there had to be some who were dying for what I had to offer, right?
WRONG.
They wanted to read what they were used to. Harry Potter readers wanted more Harry, Ron and Hermione. Romance readers wanted more Christian and Ana. Fantasy readers wanted more George R.R. Martin.

I was wrong. I learned to follow trends (somewhat, anyhow) and to design a decent cover, until I could afford a great cover designer. And I learned how to hook readers, which does mean writing to market. Anyone can be a super-duper creative artiste and do what they want. But someone who's making hanging mobiles out of coat hangers and old socks needs to recognize that there's a reason Monet prints sell. They make people feel good. 

People like feeling good. Reading is comfort.
So give them that gift and they'll come back for more. Give them a mish-mash of a pile of things you throw at them, and forget it.

By the way, I've written about a million words in the last year. My best seller is about 400 pages long. But I also sell "books" that are 15,000 words. Why? Because they're connected to my popular series of novels. That's why.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Joseph Malik said:


> I don't remember any English professors assuring me that, at the completion of their course, I'd be funny, or engaging, or even interesting. I certainly don't remember any of them telling me I'd have my finger on the pulse of a market and I'd be wildly successful as an author. I remember them saying that I'd be able to use the language correctly. And, if memory serves, I believe the rest was supposed to be up to me.


I majored in English. Working my way through college, it took me eight years. And in my second year, one of my favorite professors tried to tell us this message that you've posted here, Joseph. I wish I had listened.

Near as I can recall, Anglo Saxon and Neo-Classical English Professor Donald Doten at Santa Monica College said to us in the fall of 1982:

"Don't major in English because you want to be an author. Go write books if you want to be an author. Authors don't need to analyze the classics and write papers comparing and contrasting their themes, like we're doing. Authors need to tell stories, and the best way to get good at telling stories is to ... tell stories. Let people read your stories. Ask them what they think. Listen to what they say, and apply that to your next story. We won't be doing that here, so if you're here trying to become an author, you're wasting your time here."

Just looked him up. He's still there, in his eighties!


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

justphil said:


> Then it was length and price, pretty much what I agreed on in the first place. If this discussion served no other purpose, perhaps it will turn aside the next guy who thinks "hey, all I have to do is write quick short books to stay in the new releases list and then bundle them to get the higher royalty! Brilliant!"
> 
> Wrong. You'll produce nothing but three miles of wreckage. Don't do it.
> 
> ...


I don't know if you are being genuine or not right now. I think pretty much every person who has commented in this thread in the last 4 days has told you that you have to give the readers what they want. So why does it seem like you are just getting it now?

The link you added for what romance readers want, that's not really accurate. I don't read Mythology & Folk Tales or fairytales. It seems that the most popular sub-genres in romance are contemporary, na and erom. (romance authors can correct me if I'm wrong)

I read tons of contemporary, new adult romance, erom and I love YA. I can give you a list of several novellas and short stories that I've read recently and most were bestsellers or had a high rank when I read them. 
My mum reads short cozy mysteries while she's travelling to work, in the evenings because she watches zero TV and when she travels. 
There are tons of people with reading habits like ours.

I get the feeling that you did not pay attention to the market, what was selling in your genre and what your future readers wanted.

_Edited quoted post. --Betsy_


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

justphil said:


> These are the kinds of things people need to know before they spend five thousand hours beating themselves senseless.


You could have saved yourself thousands of hours of _beating yourself senseless_ if you bothered to take any of the advice offered to you two years ago when you first raised this exact same issue. You chose to ignore all that advice. You have demonstrated you don't want to change, now you're just going for martyrdom.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

justphil said:


> Then it was length and price, pretty much what I agreed on in the first place. If this discussion served no other purpose, perhaps it will turn aside the next guy who thinks "hey, all I have to do is write quick short books to stay in the new releases list and then bundle them to get the higher royalty! Brilliant!"
> 
> Wrong. You'll produce nothing but three miles of wreckage. Don't do it.
> 
> ...


I think these might be better examples for what readers want (picking actual top things in the genre that are actually self-published since two of your examples weren't and your romance example is ranked 20k which is a good rank but nowhere near top for a romance book)
Romance: https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Waters-Brittainy-Cherry-ebook/dp/B01LXK1O5A/
Science Fiction: https://www.amazon.com/Earth-Alone-Earthrise-Book-1-ebook/dp/B01H9DSYTO/
Fantasy: https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Wonder-Wakening-Book-1-ebook/dp/B00VV63K22/

So yes... all longer books, all with excellent covers and blurbs that convey exactly what kind of story they are, all reasonably priced. Makes sense to me. 

I have an English degree. I also have a Medieval Studies degree. I was in an MFA program and completed pretty much the whole program minus my thesis. None of those things made me a good fiction writer, though they helped along the way. I still had to put in years of self-study and practice before I could write books that other people wanted to read.

_Edited quoted post. --Betsy_


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## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

justphil said:


> Then it was length and price, pretty much what I agreed on in the first place. If this discussion served no other purpose, perhaps it will turn aside the next guy who thinks "hey, all I have to do is write quick short books to stay in the new releases list and then bundle them to get the higher royalty! Brilliant!"


You say your pricing is off - have you gone and changed it?

But, more pressingly: what if length and price aren't your only issues? You mention this trilogy you could commit to and have out in a few months - if you have other issues with your books, they could easily sell as poorly as your current books do.

It seems like you're reluctant to put in more futile effort, yet when offered help you repeatedly claim your writing is fine and refuse to show it. Maybe your writing is fine, but your covers are terrible. Maybe your blurbs are confusing. Maybe you're making poor choices for your genre in terms of tone or narrative voice.

Besides, selling isn't a switch - it's a continuum. You could fix the length and price issues and do a bit better, but if you strengthened other areas as well, you could make even more.

My golden rule for life is this: always consider that you might be wrong. I'm usually not wrong, but exploring the possibility never hurts - and sometimes really helps.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Phil,

Our membership has been very patient, and I believe there has been a lot of good discussion here that will be helpful to many members, if not to you. So, for that, thank you. (And thanks to all of the members who kept their responses civil despite being obviously frustrated.)

However, Phil, you have been abusive to members who have tried to help. I missed some early in the thread, but you are continuing to do it today. Rather than ban you from your own thread through post moderation, I'm going to lock it.

I really don't see anything to be gained either by you or by the community by allowing the discussion to continue; but we'll be discussing in the smoke filled rooms.

Phil or any one else, feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Please be advised that starting new threads to continue a discussion in a locked thread is not allowed. This should be obvious--not much point in locking a thread if we allow it to be started again in a new thread. New threads will be locked and/or removed. Starting a new thread to get around threadlock will result in forum moderation up to and including being placed on post approval or being banned. Thank you.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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