# Egypt



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

My cat-writing friend and colleague lives in Cairo and gave permission to share her BBM message/conversation today. Scary scary stuff--please pray for peace!

http://www.redroom.com/blog/amy-d-shojai/woof-wednesday-howling-for-egypt


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Amyshojai said:


> My cat-writing friend and colleague lives in Cairo and gave permission to share her BBM message/conversation today. Scary scary stuff--please pray for peace!
> 
> http://www.redroom.com/blog/amy-d-shojai/woof-wednesday-howling-for-egypt


I work at times with a news organization which has lost contact with their Egyptian stringer who had already been seized by the police once. And this is a foreigner who is only observing and reporting.

Very scary. You have to weep for the Egyptian people.


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Yes, the pro-Mubarak demonstrators seem to be targeting journalists to shut them up. CNN's Anderson Cooper and his team were run out of the square.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Definitely momentous and sometimes scary things going on there. Makes me glad that George Washington started the 2-term limit tradition in the US that was finally made official after FDR. (Now if we could get some term limits on Congress, I'd be even happier.  )


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

I have some distant relatives that live in Cairo. The teenage son is patrolling their residential neighborhood, along with some other men. Armed with a kitchen knife. Not good times.


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Al Jazeera live coverage (in English): http://www.livestation.com/channels/3


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

Wow, I had no idea it had gotten that intense. I knew there were demonstrations going on and the Internet had been shut off, but that sounds absolutely horrible. How scary!


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## Eeyore (Jul 16, 2009)

I have a bad feeling about this...

1) Pro-government thugs sent in to create violence.
2) Violence intensifies as both sides begin fighting.
3) News satellite feeds will suddenly go down.
4) In the name of peace and security for our nation announcement, a massive crackdown takes place. (Think Tiananmen Square, China.)

I hope this doesn't happen but the pieces look like they are moving in place. Several army vehicles have been taken over by pro-Mubarak forces as reported by Al-Jazeera news.

Best wishes and hoping for peace in the Middle East, inshallah.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Let us be careful that in our haste to see things made better for the downtrodden that we do not assist those who would persecute the masses after seizing power.

True Democracy is desired, not "the will of those who shout the loudest" (and who often are not citizens).

Just sayin.....


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> Let us be careful that in our haste to see things made better for the downtrodden that we do not assist those who would persecute the masses after seizing power.
> 
> True Democracy is desired, not "the will of those who shout the loudest" (and who often are not citizens).
> 
> Just sayin.....


Definitely. I personally don't know enough to have any idea if the opposition's choices for leaders would be any better or worse. All I know is it's usually a bad sign when the same person is in control for that long a time; but if all that happens is that whoever gathers the most muscle then gains control, chances are nothing will really change for the masses -- a systemic change is needed, not a change in personnel.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

I've been watching this closely.  So far the protesters have all been peaceful and instigators seem to be from the pro-Mubarak camp.  I fervently hope peaceful resistance wins the day here as it did in Tunisia.  My fear is that this is going to erupt into violence and harsh suppression by the government.  


"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
  --  Mahatma Gandhi


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## Cliff Ball (Apr 10, 2010)

I hope they got out the US Embassy staff out of Cairo as this started...


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

geoffthomas said:


> Let us be careful that in our haste to see things made better for the downtrodden that we do not assist those who would persecute the masses after seizing power.
> 
> True Democracy is desired, not "the will of those who shout the loudest" (and who often are not citizens).
> 
> Just sayin.....


It is rare that transitions that come from this form of protest last. The various dissatisfied groups are unable to agree on goals and policies once the agreed upon disliked leader is ousted and poltiical chaos intensifies. Without proper institutions to channel the frustration of the people and the various groups, the democracy collapses.

I visited Egypt 6 years ago. We had a Coptic Christian tour guide. I had the oppertunity to talk with her away from the rest of the group on a few occassions. She told me that when she was a girl it was rare to see women wearing head scarves or treated differently then the boys or the men. As an adult she sees the vast majority of women wearing head scarves and an increasing number of women wearing burqas. My Aunt and Uncle were in Egypt when this all started, they were able to fly out Saturday morning and are home safe. My Aunt commented in an email before all of this happened that she was looking forward to seeing women wearing something other then burqas.

My point? That there are people in Egypt who want democracy and a secular government but that there are plenty of people who want an Islamic State. When the Shah in Iran was ousted there were many people who wanted democracy and there were many people who wanted an Islamic State. The democrats lost and Iran has lived under a repressive government and now deals with high levels of unemployment, economic difficulties, political corruption, and the possibility of being jailed for violating religious tenets.

I hope for Egypt that the democratic faction ends up in control and is able to help Egypt grow and develop. My fear, as someone who studies democratization, is that many in Egypt will be disappointed that a new democratic regime is unable to fix the many problems with Egyptian political, social, and economic institutions and that a democratic government is replaced by something far more damaging to Egypt.

The current regime is not ideal but it is more then possible that it will end up being replaced by something far worse for the Egyptian people.

I hope that I am wrong.


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

I hope too that the people get what they truly want out of this.

Sitting half a world away there is no way to know what's really going on, despite video, live cameras and interviews -- everything can be manipulated to look/sound any number of ways. Everyone has an agenda and viewpoint, even those who say they don't. What is freedom to me and you isn't necessarily the same to another person living in very different situations.

I fear for my friend. Her son at least is safe in Germany, and she's several kilometers away from the worst fighting. But all are affected by lack of funds to get food--or food itself--no matter what "side" they take. 

At this point, the freedom not to fear would be at the top of my prayers.


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## 13500 (Apr 22, 2010)

Thank you for sharing this, Amy. 

My heart is with the Egyptian people.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

I visited Egypt in 1997 and Tunisia in 2008, so maybe I have a bit of the Scarlet visiting curse about me just for Arab countries!

Violent revolution seldom leads to a good government being installed, we were very very lucky in the USA in the late 1700s.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

THC you must remember that our fair land was "seeded" with people who came here to get away from the badness.
So they were thinking the good thoughts but did not have to execute a King and all of his followers to achieve their ends.
They could start with noble plans and defend themselves.  Yes there was blood but it was shed in defense, not madness.
Think of the French Revolution and the guililtine, the Russian Revolution and the massacre of the nobility, Mao's "re-education" of hundreds of thousands, and Iran and Lebanon and now Tunisia, probably Egypt and probably Jordan.  
I have been to many of these places.
The Jordanians for instance are good people and love their king. But they are outnumbered in their own country by Palestians.

Oh, well.
We will never solve the world's problems from our living room chairs.

Just sayin......


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Cambodia, Vietnam, Algeria

It is a long, long bloody list.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> THC you must remember that our fair land was "seeded" with people who came here to get away from the badness.
> So they were thinking the good thoughts but did not have to execute a King and all of his followers to achieve their ends


True, they also had considerable experience and tradition of effective self government, albeit not at a national level.

Back to Egypt, I'd love to see the antiquities again, and had thought of returning, thinking I should do it before the country changed in a way that made me reluctant to go back. Alas, I may have waited too long.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

It helped that the government we were fighting was not able to get troops here quickly and was more concerned about fighting wars with France. We were simply less important and not worth the additional money.

I am sure had we lost that our Founding Fathers would not be seen in the positive light that we see them today.

I think you waited too long. I was encouraging people to go as soon as possible when I went 6 years ago fearing that something along these lines would happen. What we are seeing in the streets is not going to go away any time soon. A new government will not reduce the tension, only change it.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

I traveled the developing world extensively in the 70s.
Walked the streets of places like Damascus (Syria) and Amon (Jordan).
Loved visiting all over Pakistan. Loved the people at that time.
But even then the private armies were better armed than the federal govt army.
And they were necessary for companies to protect their belongings and their workers.
But the museums in LaHore were fantastic.
Visited the "Lahore Fort" - the palace of Shah Jahan and across the street the Shalimar Gardens (this is the same guy that built the Taj Mahal.  The 2nd largest mosque in Islam was across the other street from the "fort".  Rudyard Kipling wrote his Kim books about this city.  

But I would not go there now.
People are all twisted around in their heads - and it is not our country to decide on anyway.

Just sayin.......


But back to our founding fathers - the one item that has the most impressed me is that many wanted Washington to stay on as King and he refused and worked to make sure that noone was made king.
What a bunch of guys.


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## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

I have lived in Egypt twice and visited five years ago. My daughter is half Egyptian. My daughter has many relatives in Egypt. I cannot think so negatively about the end of this. The Egyptians are a very clever people. They were civilized way before we were. They had the first hospitals and surgeons and knew many things we didn't  know. The protestors will win, and will make the right choices for a new government.
That is the way it has to be. We are not the only people able to pick democracy, and we frequently don't like those who win elections. Egypt will prevail. My sympathy is with those stuck in the square. My daughter said the government always employs thugs to fight their battles. This is nothing new. It just has a larger audience.Mabarak will be gone soon.

Ann


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## Rory Miller (Oct 21, 2010)

I totally understand why those serving in the military would not want to fire on their own countrymen. That said, once the military announced they wouldn't shoot protestors it was a granting of permission for the protestors to get out of hand with no ultimate threat to put them down.

Also, here's an excellent piece about the soccer communities role in the uprising, from Sports Illustraited.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/dave_zirin/01/31/egypt.soccer/index.html


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Update from my friend--and info on helping the animal victims, too. Yes people are in dire straights but those who love and care about animals can shut off their hearts either.

http://www.redroom.com/blog/amy-d-shojai/help-egypts-animals


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## Rory Miller (Oct 21, 2010)

Man this thing has taken a turn for the worse today.  Counter-protestors rumored to be cops in plain clothes have arrived and the violence has kicked up a notch.  The Egyptian military is doing nothing but rounding up foriegn journalists (not sure if it is to shut them up or keep them safe as an ABCNews producer has been kidnapped and threatened with beheading).
  
  Have you noticed that all the protests are happening in fairly pro-western nations?  Oh yeah, that's right, they'd get shot in the fundamentalist nations.  I'm just hoping that the end result is more freedom, and not a replacement of slightly pro-western leaders with very anti-western fundamentalists.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Well one would expect (in a well-run democratic country) for the police and the army to be on the same side - and that would be in support of the legitimate government - until elections changed things.  Not on the side of the protestors.
And in our country we would legally arrest those calling for the overthrow of the government by violent means. 
But we would condone and protect peaceful demonstrators and protestors that were calling for a change in government thru the elective process.

Now what parts of the above are true in Egypt at this time?
Oh yeah and how many of the people, on either side, are actually Egyptian citizens?

Hmmmmmm

Just sayin.....


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

It seemed that they were peaceful enough until the pro-Mubarek crowd showed up.  That's when things went to hell.  So did the government send in these people in order to incite the others to violence?  And if they are pro-Mubarek, why is the Military still standing still when they are throwing Molotov cocktails at each other and burning down buildings.  When I worked inside the prison, we did not standby and allow the 'inmates' to have gang-wars in the rec yards, we had to stop them.  This seems to correlate in some way to the situation in Egypt.  I don't know, but I think it would be handled differently here and almost anywhere else.  Something is definitely fishy if you ask me, which you didn't, but as Geoffthomas always says... well, you know.


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

I just got a BBM from my friend--I'd asked about her safety and if I should remove the blogs since it appears journalists are being targeted. She requested her last name and photo be removed, and I've done so.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Brendan Carroll said:


> It seemed that they were peaceful enough until the pro-Mubarek crowd showed up. That's when things went to hell. So did the government send in these people in order to incite the others to violence? And if they are pro-Mubarek, why is the Military still standing still when they are throwing Molotov cocktails at each other and burning down buildings. When I worked inside the prison, we did not standby and allow the 'inmates' to have gang-wars in the rec yards, we had to stop them. This seems to correlate in some way to the situation in Egypt. I don't know, but I think it would be handled differently here and almost anywhere else. Something is definitely fishy if you ask me, which you didn't, but as Geoffthomas always says... well, you know.


The reports I have read from Egypt say that there are indeed gangs of pro-Mubarek thugs being protected by the police. There are also reports of widespread rapes by the pro-Mubarek attackers.

Two reports, one from a Scottish news publication from their stringer 'on the ground' in Egypt and one from a Washington perspective:

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/general/1565-egypt-protest-cairo

Information about their reporter has been removed for his safety.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leah-mcelrath-renna/obamas-egypt-fail_b_818210.html

Things are going to be very bad over there. And our past history of propping up dictatorships should have taught us something, one would think.


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## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

My daughter says that it is a common practise for Mubarack to pay thugs any time there is a demonstration in Egypt. What bothers me the most is the onslaught against the media. Everyone is expecting something terrible to happen within the next few hours. I feel very fearful for the Egyptian people. Friday is my daughter's birthday. I am hoping her birthday is not filled with terrible memories of what happened to her friends.
Ann


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

This news has just broken my heart.  Egypt has such a long and incredible history and in recent times suffered more than its' share of violence.  I pray with all my heart and soul for the Egyptian people - they're always the ones caught in the middle who suffer the worst.

Thanks for the update Amy - I'd missed all of this being in hospital.


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## Scheherazade (Apr 11, 2009)

Well... some good has come out of it all.

*Images of solidarity as Christians join hands to protect Muslims as they pray during Cairo protests *










_Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353330/Egypt-protests-Christians-join-hands-protect-Muslims-pray-Cairo-protests.html#ixzz1CxZ55tuV_


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Scheherazade said:


> Well... some good has come out of it all.
> 
> *Images of solidarity as Christians join hands to protect Muslims as they pray during Cairo protests *
> 
> ...


After the Moslems protected the Coptic Christians for Christmas mass, this sort of image makes me hopeful for the future.

We're watching Al Jaziera English at today's protests and my biggest fear is still that this will devolve in crushing violence a la Tienanmen Square. By biggest hope is that something wonderful is happening before our eyes.

As-Salamu Alaykum and go with God


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Scheherazade said:


> Well... some good has come out of it all.
> 
> *Images of solidarity as Christians join hands to protect Muslims as they pray during Cairo protests *
> 
> ...


That brings tears to my eyes. It's the messages of hope that are so inspiring amidst the nightmare.


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## Rory Miller (Oct 21, 2010)

Last year when the terrorists blew up a Coptic church the explosion also injured some at a nearby Mosque... I remember telling someone that this could lead to a unity between the two towards those that try to accomplish their goals with terror.


  One point of clarification, the protests weren't just peaceful from the get go.  Even on the first day there were some violent outbreaks and deaths of protestors and policemen.  The biggest flair-up came when the police used water cannons to push back the crowd and the crowd threw stones. Then on Jan 28th (I think this was after they military announced reluctance to fire upon the crowd) the protestors stormed police headquarters and burned them to the ground, there were many, many violent confrontations on this day.  It wasn't until Feb 2nd that the pro-Mubarak protestors hit the seen and all hell really broke out, but that was after an already estimated 150 people had died.  I'd imagine that number is going to double every couple of days now.


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## Sporadic (May 1, 2009)

RorySM said:


> Man this thing has taken a turn for the worse today. Counter-protestors rumored to be cops in plain clothes have arrived and the violence has kicked up a notch. The Egyptian military is doing nothing but rounding up foriegn journalists (not sure if it is to shut them up or keep them safe as an ABCNews producer has been kidnapped and threatened with beheading).
> 
> Have you noticed that all the protests are happening in fairly pro-western nations? Oh yeah, that's right, they'd get shot in the fundamentalist nations. I'm just hoping that the end result is more freedom, and not a replacement of slightly pro-western leaders with very anti-western fundamentalists.


Can't exactly blame them. One of the funniest quotes I've read from this whole thing



> Biden had no problem calling Julian Assange a terrorist, but is reluctant to call Mubarek a dictator. America at it's best.


Until our actions meet our words, we are going to be a joke in eyes of most of the world.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

But maybe our words should be changed to match our actions, as that seems to be our real feelings.  Rhetoric is cheap.


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## Sporadic (May 1, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> But maybe our words should be changed to match our actions, as that seems to be our real feelings. Rhetoric is cheap.


Are the ideas that caused this country to form, in the first place, rhetoric? At the moment, we (the country as a whole) are a bunch of hypocrites that don't really care about anybody, except Israel, unless it directly affects us or our bottom line. We have been that way for a long time.

I would love for us to actually stand up and back the ideas we say we are important to us, even if doesn't work out in our favor.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

I do not think the U.S. is a bunch of hypocrites.
We do have some politicians who make remarks in public that they shouldn't.

But we pushed for free elections in the west bank and got a result that we didn't like - live with it.
There are many more instances.
but we have to acknowledge that not all peoples want "freedom" nor even mean the same thing as we do when they say it.

Just sayin....


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Some newer on-the-street coverage from over there: http://www.newsnetscotland.com/general/1580-cairo-protesters-poised-for-mubaraks-day-of-departure

It's a dangerous, dangerous place to report from and I have the highest respect for anyone with the guts to do it.

Edit: I try hard not to get into politics here so no comment beyond the link.


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## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

The square was very peaceful today. It was totally packed. I was amazed that so many people showed up after all the violence not knowing that there would be apeaceful day.


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## Rory Miller (Oct 21, 2010)

Very releaved to hear it war a peaceful day. I wonder how it was in the other cities.

And a little about the US not being true to our roots, dont forget paranoia and blowing things out of proportion had as much to do with taking the enlightenment ideas from the books and into a revolution!


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## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

I think the revolution is making progress. When I was there I wondered why the people put up with all of the things they had to put up with, I am so glad to see them resisting all of the repression now. There are a bunch of countries that will need to do this, then I think we will have a more progressive world.
Ann


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## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

Today, (Fri) is again expected to be a very important day in Egypt. People are linning up around the palace and the state TV building. The army is guarding both of these structures. Again people are afraid that there may be more bloodshed today. The protesters are building toilets and showers in the square. They are not leaving. Another thing that has not been mentioned is that both sexes are sleeping in the square. I'm not saying that anything is going on, but that is so against their usual practices that another barrier has come crashing down. This is really interesting I am so hoping the protesters win. They keep expanding by the hundreds and thousands.
Ann.


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

My friend left Egypt last Saturday after the German embassy warned its citizens they should get out, so she went with a group of German journalists. But Cairo is her home, and she'd planned to return tomorrow (Saturday). Yesterday's speech by the prez quashed that notion and she's very fearful of what may happen in the coming days.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

As it became apparent that Mubarek had no intention of stepping down, and the people in the square were screaming for him to get out, I thought of Nero, hiding in his palace from an angry mob. His guard deserted him; all of his courtiers deserted him. In the end, he could not even commit suicide on his own. He held the knife to his throat and his private secretary helped him drive it home. 

Mubarek doesn't even have the courage to step down. Or perhaps, like Nero, he knows he has no safe way to leave the country.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Amyshojai said:


> My friend left Egypt last Saturday after the German embassy warned its citizens they should get out, so she went with a group of German journalists. But Cairo is her home, and she'd planned to return tomorrow (Saturday). Yesterday's speech by the prez quashed that notion and she's very fearful of what may happen in the coming days.


Amy, it's good to know that at least one person is safe. It may be months before she can return. Whatever happens, this will not be an easy transition.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Whoops, just read that he did resign and handed power over to the military. That's from the New York Times.

Any confirmation?


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Yeah.
CNN has reported it.


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## dpinmd (Dec 30, 2009)

So exciting!  I've been watching a live feed of the celebration in Tahrir Square, and it gives me chills!  (CNN and the NYT are behind -- the news broke on Twitter about 45 minutes ago!)


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## M.S. Verish (Feb 26, 2010)

We hope all turns out well for the people of Egypt! Truly historical what happened today.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Just watching CNN now, President Mubarak has stepped down. Egypt is free - for the moment.  The military is in control, so now we wait and see what will happen.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

He hasn't left the country, though, has he. Either one of two things happened. He's either the power behind the throne or the military put a gun to his head. I heard he handed over control to the military.

No matter what, let us pray for a peaceful and democratic transition.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

BrianKittrell said:


> Just watching CNN now, President Mubarak has stepped down. Egypt is free - for the moment. The military is in control, so now we wait and see what will happen.


Yes, that is always the big question in these situations: who will fill the vacuum left by a departed ruler after s/he is forced out? (After all, that's how Castro came into power.)


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## matt youngmark (Jan 11, 2011)

NogDog said:


> (After all, that's how Castro came into power.)


Also the fundamentalist regime in Iran in 1980. Scary stuff, but if it's democracy the Egyptian people truly want, hopefully they'll fare better.


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## div (Aug 25, 2010)

I think our National Security just got a little tighter....this may not be good for "us" in the long run but I certainly wish the democracy seeking Egyptians luck.


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## Rory Miller (Oct 21, 2010)

It will be interesting to see what turns this takes. I wonder what role the democracy in Iraq's example served. Here is hoping this goes well and others follow. Thank goodness the military refused to fire on the protestors or this all would have ended on day 2 just like Iran a couple years ago.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

The entire top command of the army was not in the country; this is not much reported. Any more than is the base cause, which was and is rising food prices due to... well, that's another matter.

The army is respected; when tanks etc appeared in the street, the people acted on the assumption that they were there in support. Mubarak was in an impossible position; destroy the mythology of the army? Not an option.

Also the army has no riot control gear; just bullets and tanks.

The security forces withdrew, partly because having two armed forces with different command structures in the streets has it's own risks.

A vast amount of looting and lawlessness (not much reported) was for the most part controlled by the people.

There is a lot more; but the fact is that a large amount of this event is luck and circumstance.

What happens next? Good question. The army is in control but then in reality it has been since 1952. I suspect that any talk of democracy in any real form is premature...by some years.


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## Ciareader (Feb 3, 2011)

Like everyone else, I am interested to see what hapens.


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## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

I find some of the comments here rather scathing. I think what the Egyptians have accomplished in 18 days is wonderful. I am sure they can pull a democracy together. I knew there was looting, and I know the people were working to prevent it. I think there was very little damage done considering the vast numbers of people involved. I support the Egyptians in their transition and I'm not sure what the point is about this starting because of increased food prices. All of the Egyptians I have met are a very smart and generous people. I am aware that they have suffered years of being controlled by a dictator. As a matter of disclosure I have lived in Egypt twice and my daughter is half Egyptian.
This is a lot better way to get rid of a dictator than what happened in Iraq.
Ann


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Might be rather a pyrrhic victory. I wish the Egyptians the best, but it seems a bit of a stretch that they'll automatically spring for a democracy. Democracy is a foreign concept to them. I kinda think the logical future is that they'll turn toward some form of Islamic/shariah government. It's what they historically know. I've lived and worked in the Middle East (Egyptian relatives and Jewish relatives). People there are proud of where they've come from culturally. They're not going to throw that over so quickly for our western ideas of democracy.

As for our national intelligence director saying that the Muslim Brotherhood were largely just a bunch of secularists...oh, boy.


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## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

I was just exhausted from watching this on tv. I don't have the stamina of those in Tahrir square. This has been a very exciting revolution, I hope it continues to go well. When I called my daughter she said she had to sleep, so I think those in the square must be surviving on pure adreneline.


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## Sporadic (May 1, 2009)

RorySM said:


> I wonder what role the democracy in Iraq's example served.


Reminds me of this picture.





Christopher Bunn said:


> Might be rather a pyrrhic victory. I wish the Egyptians the best, but it seems a bit of a stretch that they'll automatically spring for a democracy. Democracy is a foreign concept to them. I kinda think the logical future is that they'll turn toward some form of Islamic/shariah government. It's what they historically know. I've lived and worked in the Middle East (Egyptian relatives and Jewish relatives). People there are proud of where they've come from culturally. They're not going to throw that over so quickly for our western ideas of democracy.
> 
> As for our national intelligence director saying that the Muslim Brotherhood were largely just a bunch of secularists...oh, boy.


Never heard of Turkey? Everything I have read says that The Muslim Brotherhood is more on par with their AKP.


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Al Jazeera TV has timely coverage. And yes, it's exhausting but exhilerating to watch.


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

I wish the Iranian people had been as successful in their uprising.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Even when you do get a democratic government in, it's still a long tough ever winding road.  South Africa is a good example of how difficult it can be even in ideal circumstances.  Zimbabwe is an example of how it can wind down into a dictatorship 

Finding at least two strong opposing parties can be quite a task in a short time.  Best of luck to them!


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

JimC1946 said:


> I wish the Iranian people had been as successful in their uprising.


While I assume you are referring to last year's events, there are those who would say that they did succeed in their uprising against the shah and got what they wanted.

Just sayin.....


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> He hasn't left the country, though, has he. Either one of two things happened. He's either the power behind the throne or the military put a gun to his head. I heard he handed over control to the military.
> 
> No matter what, let us pray for a peaceful and democratic transition.


Well put. And for a form of government that suits them rather than us. But really suits them and is not forced upon them.


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Sporadic said:


> Never heard of Turkey? Everything I have read says that The Muslim Brotherhood is more on par with their AKP.


Yeah, I'm familiar with Turkey and the AKP. Erdogan and his party aren't too nice of a bunch. It seems like they've been pretty clear that they're using secularization/democracy as a short-term tool to bring about long-term Islamization of Turkey. At any rate, not to hijack the thread, but if you check out the Brotherhood's goals on their website, they're honest about what they're after. Numbers 5 and 6 are unsettling.



> 1- Building the Muslim individual: brother or sister with a strong body, high manners, cultured thought, ability to earn, strong faith, correct worship, conscious of time, of benefit to others, organized, and self-struggling character.
> 2- Building the Muslim family: choosing a good wife (husband), educating children Islamicaly, and inviting other families.
> 3- Building the Muslim society (thru building individuals and families) and addressing the problems of the society realistically. .
> 4- Building the Muslim state.
> ...


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## Sporadic (May 1, 2009)

Christopher Bunn said:


> Yeah, I'm familiar with Turkey and the AKP. Erdogan and his party aren't too nice of a bunch. It seems like they've been pretty clear that they're using secularization/democracy as a short-term tool to bring about long-term Islamization of Turkey.


Not really.



Christopher Bunn said:


> At any rate, not to hijack the thread, but if you check out the Brotherhood's goals on their website, they're honest about what they're after. Numbers 5 and 6 are unsettling.


[citation needed]

because I can't find that anywhere on their website.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

According to al Jezeera, there were protests today in Yemen and Algeria.  I'm not in the least surprised and I think even the more moderate autocratic Arab countries must be worried.

At some point one government or another is not going to put up with it and the response to the protesters will be bloody - but so far, 2011 is starting out as in interesting year.


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Sporadic said:


> Not really.
> 
> [citation needed]
> 
> because I can't find that anywhere on their website.


Well, we might have to agree to disagree on some of this. However, if you want to dig into the Muslim Brotherhood ideology, here's a link to some writings about the goals and philosophy of the MB by Mustafa Mashhur, the organization's recent leader. http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=4603
http://palwatch.org/STORAGE/special%20reports/Jihad_is_the_way_by_Mustafa_Mashhur.pdf


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## Sporadic (May 1, 2009)

Christopher Bunn said:


> Well, we might have to agree to disagree on some of this. However, if you want to dig into the Muslim Brotherhood ideology, here's a link to some writings about the goals and philosophy of the MB by Mustafa Mashhur, the organization's recent leader. http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=4603
> http://palwatch.org/STORAGE/special%20reports/Jihad_is_the_way_by_Mustafa_Mashhur.pdf


We might.

Only thing I have to say is be sure to check your sources and look at where you are getting your information from. The fact you went from "if you check out the Brotherhood's goals on their website" to linking me to some Israeli "research institute" when you couldn't...


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

The people need help--that goes without saying. But so do the animals. I've pictures, comments from my friend from Egypt, and links to the fledgling animal welfare movement in the country in my latest blog (skip over the fire stuff mention):

http://www.redroom.com/blog/amy-d-shojai/tuesday-tips-disaster-prep-egypt-update-fire


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