# Anyone can make a living self publishing



## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

There is no secret formula. Write entertaining books that people want to read. I've published 1,000 romance novellas under various pennames. Some are wide and some are in KU. I make at least $4,000 every month with no marketing. I don't have dreams of getting rich, but I'm paying bills. It took a few years to get to this point. You can accomplish anything with hard work.


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Cassie B said:


> * Right *entertaining books that people want to read.


Oki doke.


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## scott.marmorstein (May 26, 2015)

Appreciate the pep-talk. I'm a bit confused as to the agenda. For a split-second, I was almost convinced I stumbled on one of those sites that explains how you too can make adequate day-job quitting money if you just give them your email address...


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

ImaWriter said:


> Oki doke.


Yep, spelled it wrong. Slept deprivation can make you miss obvious spelling mistakes.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

scott.marmorstein said:


> Appreciate the pep-talk. I'm a bit confused as to the agenda. For a split-second, I was almost convinced I stumbled on one of those sites that explains how you too can make adequate day-job quitting money if you just give them your email address...


No agenda. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm letting everyone know that you don't have to be a great writer to make a living. I have a fan base for each penname, and most of my books have a three star average rating. Medicority can pay the bills.


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## Dayseye (Mar 20, 2018)

1,000 romance novellas adds up to a lot of hard work, well done you & cheers for the pep. 

A timely reminder that folks don't always hanker for haute cuisine & fine wines. Sometimes a bacon sarnie with a dollop of sauce & a mug of coffee or tea hits the spot.


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## Jeff Hughes (May 4, 2012)

<< Anyone can make a living self publishing >>

I'll take the other side of that bet, every day of the week.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

Jeff Hughes said:


> << Anyone can make a living self publishing >>
> 
> I'll take the other side of that bet, every day of the week.


Okay. This message isn't for you if you don't think anyone can make a living self publishing. I know for myself that it's possible because I'm doing it. No promotion, beta readers, and paying my college student sister $200 a month to edit. My covers are made with gimp, and I'm not a great designer. Anyone can do this.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Cassie B said:


> This message isn't for you if you don't think anyone can make a living self publishing.


In a way, you're demeaning the whole profession. Relatively few people have the skills to write well and even fewer to craft stories. That's why so many ultimately fail.


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## foxinabox (Feb 5, 2020)

1k novellas is quite a fair bit.  How long are your novellas on avarage?


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

Dpock said:


> In a way, you're demeaning the whole profession. Relatively few people have the skills to write well and even fewer to craft stories. That's why so many ultimately fail.


I understand what you're saying, but good is subjective. I've had reviews that have said a book I've published is a trainwreck you can't look away from, and another reviewer will call the story quirky and different. They keep reading, and the money keeps coming to my bank account. Everyone can't be a great writer. That's not a bad thing. Many readers only care about a good story. Anyone can get better with an editor and beta readers. The writer may never become a bestseller, but with beta readers and an editor making a living is possible for medicore writers.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

foxinabox said:


> 1k novellas is quite a fair bit.  How long are your novellas on avarage?


Between 8,000 and 15,000 words. Anything over 12,000 I sell for $2.99. My shorter novellas are $.99. I do use free days in KU, and I have a few permafrees for each penname, so I guess that counts as advertising.


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## EmberKent (Nov 24, 2018)

How do you keep track of that many books? Do you ever do anything with the books that don't sell at all?


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

EmberKent said:


> How do you keep track of that many books? Do you ever do anything with the books that don't sell at all?


I don't keep up with them unless it's a series. I check daily to see what's selling, and it's always random what sells. Some books are popular and sell a copy once a week. Other books sell every other month or longer intervals. Every book has sold at least four copies. Unless it's a series, I stop keeping track of the book after the first month it's published. I don't unpublish anything. If a book sells one copy a year it's still a sale. My popular books usually sell at least 20 copies in the first month.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

When you say "romance" do you really mean "erotica" where shorts are close to the norm?


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Based on those numbers -- one thousand titles at 10,000 words each -- you've published 10 million words worth of material. I'd say that if an author could write that much material, sure they could make a moderate living from it with little advertising and only moderate-level appeal to what they write. But I don't think most writers would stick with it long enough to write 10 million words in order to make $4,000 a month.

So good on ya for doing so, I guess.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

Dpock said:


> When you say "romance" do you really mean "erotica" where shorts are close to the norm?


I wouldn't call it erotica because the books have a plot besides the steamy scenes. It's usually a woman scared of relationships and a determined man, or a dysfunctional family lost baby, love triangle, older men younger women. The pacing is fast. I have different pennames for different voices. First person, third person, urban fiction, interracial, white couples.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

CassieL said:


> Based on those numbers -- one thousand titles at 10,000 words each -- you've published 10 million words worth of material. I'd say that if an author could write that much material, sure they could make a moderate living from it with little advertising and only moderate-level appeal to what they write. But I don't think most writers would stick with it long enough to write 10 million words in order to make $4,000 a month.
> 
> So good on ya for doing so, I guess.


I come from a background of low paying content mills and fast food jobs. I'm making more money than everyone in my social circle. There aren't a lot of jobs in my city. I can afford a nice apartment, groceries and my bills are never late. I'm happy.


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## Lorri Moulton [Lavender Lass Books] (Jun 15, 2019)

Congrats, Cassie!


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## Luna Alchemie (Oct 6, 2019)

Good for you, I admire your work ethic! Encouraging.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

A tip to keep you motivated. Get a pack of paper and write down every good review you've ever received from a reader. My mirror is filled with hundreds of good reviews. It's nice to look at when I need some motivation.


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## EmberKent (Nov 24, 2018)

Cassie B said:


> I don't keep up with them unless it's a series. I check daily to see what's selling, and it's always random what sells. Some books are popular and sell a copy once a week. Other books sell every other month or longer intervals. Every book has sold at least four copies. Unless it's a series, I stop keeping track of the book after the first month it's published. I don't unpublish anything. If a book sells one copy a year it's still a sale. My popular books usually sell at least 20 copies in the first month.


Thanks for the answer. Those are low returns, at least to me, but I could see it being worth it if you've got a long supply of ideas for novellas. You mention no marketing; that's a pretty big bonus. Marketing is often a weakness for many, and lagging behind in an ad campaign can make or break someone's momentum. That you don't use any marketing is a selling point, I think.

Though, with that in mind, do you see a drop in income if you don't keep releasing new novellas? Have you ever taken a break to see what happens? At $4k/mo with 1000 books, that means you're averaging $4/mo per book (of course some sell more and some sell less), but is that a static/steady average?


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

EmberKent said:


> Thanks for the answer. Those are low returns, at least to me, but I could see it being worth it if you've got a long supply of ideas for novellas. You mention no marketing; that's a pretty big bonus. Marketing is often a weakness for many, and lagging behind in an ad campaign can make or break someone's momentum. That you don't use any marketing is a selling point, I think.
> 
> Though, with that in mind, do you see a drop in income if you don't keep releasing new novellas? Have you ever taken a break to see what happens? At $4k/mo with 1000 books, that means you're averaging $4/mo per book (of course some sell more and some sell less), but is that a static/steady average?


It varies a lot. Some pennames will sell more books after a KU free promotion. Some books hardly sell, and I'm surprised when I sell a copy. I notice a few recurring tittles getting sales every month. The ku page reads are good when books are not selling. I'm sure I could make more if I learned about advertising. I don't have time to study marketing. I do think my sales would drop if I took a break. I work 15 to 18 hours every day. I don't work holidays. I don't waste time. It helps that I had a catalog that made a few hundred a month before I took this serious and started paying bills with the money. I think anyone can accomplish more with a good time management strategy. I can do this because I come from poverty, and I'm used to stringing several part time jobs together to pay the bills. I hope to reach $100,000 a year, and then I will write longer books and study marketing.


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## Jeff Hughes (May 4, 2012)

Cassie, I suspect you would succeed at most anything you put your mind to... gumption and persistence count for an awful lot in this world.  Most people don't bring those to the table - at least not in sufficient measure - and that's why I disagree with your premise that anyone can do it.  But I'm glad to see the exception that proves that rule.  Good on ya for what you've achieved.

If you'll post a link to one of your favorite pieces, I'll buy a copy.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

Jeff Hughes said:


> Cassie, I suspect you would succeed at most anything you put your mind to... gumption and persistence count for an awful lot in this world. Most people don't bring those to the table - at least not in sufficient measure - and that's why I disagree with your premise that anyone can do it. But I'm glad to see the exception that proves that rule. Good on ya for what you've achieved.
> 
> If you'll post a link to one of your favorite pieces, I'll buy a copy.


Thank you. I'm afraid of being one star bombed, so I'm not posting any identifying information. I appreciate your compliment.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

It's basically what DWS says, to keep getting stories out there, and with enough any particular one doesn't have to sell a lot, it all adds up.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Cassie B said:


> I hope to reach $100,000 a year, and then I will write longer books and study marketing.


You seem happy with your process and results, so who am I to naysay? But if you ever find you're burnt out on 15 hour workdays and would like a less crushing pace, may I gently suggest you turn this around backward?

It's not my business, of course, I just hate to see anyone feel that they _have_ to work 15+ hour days to make a living. Instead of making twenty trips to the well with a cup, replacing the cup with a bucket is a very worthwhile use of time.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

How you choose to make you living is your business naturally. But that sounds like a lot of work compared to the return. I'm sure there is a formula. There'd have to be to produce 1000 novellas and short stories. But still, that's millions of words written. I imagine editing is not a priority, beyond the basics. If you have the stamina I can see where it's certainly possible. And if you are creating your own covers it could be done relatively cheaply. 
But I can't see the sustainability, long term. 
I work about 4 hours a day. That's time dedicated writing only. I'm not including time spent on promotion and taking care of other business. I am able to produce roughly 1500-2500 words per day on this schedule. I've written 18 full length novels, 16 indie and 2 traditional, raging from 95k words to 130k words, along with a few short works averaging 25k words. And I work hard. 
The question that pops into my head upon reading this post is: How long can anyone do that? My personal goal is to reach a place in my career where I can work less and enjoy the rewards I have earned. This path seems to have no perceivable endgame or realizable goal beyond the moment. It's great to pay the bills. But what happens ten years from now when your energy level begins to wain, the 15 hours days cause your health (physical and mental) to suffer? If 1000 books are only yielding $4000 per month, it seems likely that the sales from older titles drop off completely, and you're forced to replace them with something new at a constant, rapid pace. I could be wrong. But I doubt it. 
All rides eventually come to an end. Mine included. What I would be asking (and I have) is where you'll be when that happens?


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## lea_owens (Dec 5, 2011)

Good on you. Great to see how different people make a success of their writing - though for every success story with self publishing, there are 10,000 abject failures.

You've produced so much - but then I think of 40 years of my life when I wrote hundreds of thousands of words, perhaps millions, and never published any of it. I just wrote stories in notebooks, and moved on because there wasn't anything like Amazon where you could self publish. I wrote for no reason apart from the fact that I loved writing - I'd rather have them all published and getting a few sales here and there.

I'm a bit over one year into my five year plan of 'being successful'. I published some children's books (The Outback Riders series) eight years ago and if I hadn't listened to my negative internal voices, I could have had great success by continuing back then when it was so much easier, but I stopped writing because I didn't feel good enough. Then, at the end of  2018, I decided to get a bit more serious and get some books out. I aimed to reach the  $200 a week mark by the end of 2019, and $400 a week by the end of 2020. I'm ahead of target (touch wood) with an average of $300 a week now and some (I hope) more commercial ones published this year. My books are at the other end of the scale from novellas - Muted is 180,000 words, and a lot of the payment for that effort comes in kind rather than $$$ - I just love five star reviews from total strangers who read my book (106 US reviews, 96 of them five star, and almost all five stars elsewhere... and two one star reviews). At the end of the five years, I'm hoping to be averaging the $1,000 a week - I have other income so it's not that I can't live without the writing income if I fail, but the money does validate the writing.

Good on you for your path to success. I hope I'm on mine - a different path, but I have respect for all who can make a living from writing. In a sea of millions of authors who don't succeed, it's great to learn about those who have made it to the level of, 'I can survive on my writing income'. Thanks for sharing.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

No, I don't think "anyone" can make a living self-publishing. Not by a long shot.

There will be many people who don't have the determination to finish what they started, or get their book into a shape where it's at least remotely readable.

There will be people who make bad decision after bad decision about what to write and what stories to tackle.

There will be people who, having seen some success, kick up their heel and slack off, and then suddenly find their success has gone out the window, and won't be able to recapture it.

There are tons of people who are basically clueless on marketing, including those who don't see that the most important marketing gets done before the book is written, and it's not about throwing tons of ad money after a poor-selling book.

Further to that, there will be tons of people who make poor, like, really poor, financial decisions, like non-stop. 

Then there are people who, after having done it all, simply lose interest and move onto the next thing.

I've been writing since 2003 and publishing since 2011. If there is one thing I have to say about the self-published author sphere, it is how few of the people who were publishing in 2011 are still publishing today.


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## The Masked Scrivener (Jan 2, 2020)

I agree 100% that anyone can make a living self publishing. Let's look at an author that is making a living self publishing like Patty Jansen. Is there anything she is doing that anyone else can't do? A side from her original stories, everything she is doing anyone else can do.

Does this mean anyone that self publish WILL make a living? Not at all. It is hard work and most people are not willing to put in the hard work it takes to succeed. Patty succeeds because she puts in the hard work, sacrifices personal time and wealth, and continues to learn the craft and business.

If it were easy, everyone would do it.

But that doesn't mean you can't. If you really want to make a living, and are willing to put in the effort, you CAN make a living self publishing.


PS, Thank you Patty for all that you do for the writer community. You give back 100 fold what you get. I hope to one day be successful enough to give back as you have.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

If your system is working, good on you, but this sounds like the definition of working harder rather than smarter. Your efforts would go much further if you took just one day a week to learn marketing.

In fact, if your catalogue is any good, I bet you would see much better returns from taking two days a week to work on marketing, packaging, and branding (still writing three days a week, perhaps focusing on only 2-3 pen names).

People say they don't know/like marketing as if it's a badge of honor, but it's not. It's just stubbornness. Very few people start this gig knowing marketing. It's a skill we learn just as writing is a skill we learn.


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

Cassie B said:


> Between 8,000 and 15,000 words. Anything over 12,000 I sell for $2.99. My shorter novellas are $.99. I do use free days in KU, and I have a few permafrees for each penname, so I guess that counts as advertising.


Wow, you are amazing! 1000 x 11,500 is 11.5 million words. That's like 192 books - each 60,000 words. You said it took a few years? In the last 7 years I've written 21 books. I think I'm productive. You've written what would be almost 10 times as much/many? It would equal a book every couple weeks. That's really something. I guess I could do that if I could write 5,000 words a day. Damn.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

Patty Jansen said:


> No, I don't think "anyone" can make a living self-publishing. Not by a long shot.
> 
> There will be many people who don't have the determination to finish what they started, or get their book into a shape where it's at least remotely readable.
> 
> ...


Wow, if that doesn't make someone feel motivated, I don't know what will.

Forcing people to write what they don't want, all for coin. Wow.

I'd rather sell zero copies writing what I love, than pubiishing something haphazard and ugly, and it will possibly be Amazon bestseller and gain six figure sales. Hmm.

I love how you're the grand master as to what a good book is. When get this, nobody is. If you don't like a book, lovely. It doesn't make it a bad book. It was a book that was bad to you. Hell, even if it is a bad book, that's between the author to improve on his craft, and not for you to dictate and dampen and break his spirits like that.

For some people, this isn't some side hustle. This is their dream and their calling.

So if I can't write, what the hell am I supposed to do? Join Ringling Bros? I don't think so. I'm not a circus performer or clown. That's not me. I'm a writer god damn it.

I love how you comment about people not promoting well, yet did not list one single advertising site.

Because inquiring minds would love to know. How do I promote my books better? Because every site I have come across has a huge caveat, or seems fishy.

You also didn't mention things out of people's control. Such as authors by their author pictures and biography which display their race, or them being LGBT, which could impact their reader base. Hell, you can even add authors who aren't "beautiful", and don't have a huge social media following as well.

I've said this before, but in my opinion, Jenna Moreci isn't my cup of tea, and I don't care for her writing, and some of the advice she gives is very common sense. But because she's good looking, she has millions of fans of her books. I don't get it one bit. I don't.

I've even reached out to several groups so they can interview me/spot me on my recent book release, and they either said no, or it was crickets after I inquired out to them.

So what is a writer to do then? I don't think this post was helpful in the slightest.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Bixso said:


> Wow, if that doesn't make someone feel motivated, I don't know what will.
> 
> Forcing people to write what they don't want, all for coin. Wow.
> 
> ...


You may have noticed that the title of the thread is "Anyone CAN MAKE A LIVING". You may have noticed that "making a living" requires paying bills. No, I don't like them either, but the people who work for the electricity company like to eat, and so do I.

Given that premise, I completely stand by what I said.

Your response illustrates my reply. Not everyone can do it. Some would rather write purely for art. THAT IS OK. But not the premise of this thread.

The condescending shit is totally uncalled-for.

I responded to the premise of the thread. It's obviously not for you or about you, so don't reply then, if you don't want to make living with your writing.

I'm done.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

Patty Jansen said:


> You may have noticed that the title of the thread is "Anyone CAN MAKE A LIVING". You may have noticed that "making a living" requires paying bills. No, I don't like them either, but the people who work for the electricity company like to eat, and so do I.


This is subjective. It varies by the authors location first of all. For example here in Los Angeles, what I consider enough to make a living, someone in another region would consider that risky salary, or not enough to live. So, you see?

So "make a living" is an answer we can never answer. As this varies by location.

It also varies just by simple logic. To some people (X amount) is enough to pay rent, bills etc. To someone else, that's not enough, and they want more, and wish to hustle more etc. So it's very subjective.

Finally, finances and book sales is something hardly anyone on this site discloses. So I feel it's useless having this discussion, if we don't know if an author is making half million dollars over their books, or nothing at all. It's really nobody's business if you think about it. If someone is successful, good on them, but we don't have a list which separates authors.



> Given that premise, I completely stand by what I said.


Right, and I disagree. It's fine.



> Your response illustrates my reply. Not everyone can do it. Some would rather write purely for art. THAT IS OK. But not the premise of this thread


So people who write for art, can't make that their career? If anything, I think people who write for art, are the ones really serious about it. I don't know.



> The condescending [crap] is totally uncalled-for.


It is. Which is why I'm not trying to argue. I just disagree, and I'm sorry if it came across like that.



> I responded to the premise of the thread. It's obviously not for you or about you, so don't reply then, if you don't want to make living with your writing.


When did I say I didn't? If anything, I hinted more on the fact writing is something serious to me, and yes it's a hobby, but I want to make it more.

You also don't know how many books I'm selling, or what my future plans are.

It seems you already have me pegged, and that's a problem right there. But if that's not the case, I apologize, but I don't know.

Again I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying where I disagree.


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## vagabond.voyager (Jul 24, 2018)

Cassie B said:


> There is no secret formula. Write entertaining books that people want to read. I've published 1,000 romance novellas under various pennames. Some are wide and some are in KU. I make at least $4,000 every month with no marketing. I don't have dreams of getting rich, but I'm paying bills. It took a few years to get to this point. You can accomplish anything with hard work.


Anyone can make a living prospecting for gold. You just have to dig enough holes in the right places.


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## nail file (Sep 12, 2018)

Bixso said:


> Again I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying where I disagree.


Disagree all you like. You were still a jerk to Patty. You were rude and combative.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Crystal_ said:


> If your system is working, good on you, but this sounds like the definition of working harder rather than smarter. Your efforts would go much further if you took just one day a week to learn marketing.
> 
> In fact, if your catalogue is any good, I bet you would see much better returns from taking two days a week to work on marketing, packaging, and branding (still writing three days a week, perhaps focusing on only 2-3 pen names).
> 
> People say they don't know/like marketing as if it's a badge of honor, but it's not. It's just stubbornness. Very few people start this gig knowing marketing. It's a skill we learn just as writing is a skill we learn.


Agreed. Admirable as the work ethic of putting in 15 hour writing days is, that would likely still drive me back to corporate America - as ultimately that would represent better pay and benefits for better hours.

As Crystal said, putting some time into learning branding and marketing could work wonders. Make that 1000 book backlist work for you, rather than keeping the focus on constant churning. A little bit of effort and/or reinvestment could very well change your entire work week.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> The question that pops into my head upon reading this post is: How long can anyone do that?


There are certainly people who can sustain that output in the long term. I know I'm not one of them. I did the internet startup thing in the early 2000's. The constant death march completely and utterly exhausted much younger me. Obviously there's a different mindset when it's your business vs. someone else's, but - much as I love writing my stories - I'm not sure I want any job that requires a 75+ hour mandatory workweek from me.

Work life balance is definitely a thing and should not be ignored.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

>the books have a plot besides the steamy scenes

Well, if that's all that's required to lift a book out of the erotica genre, I wonder what your standards are for writing literature, or even a book worth reviewing in the NYT or WSJ? Perhaps a page or two of character development in addition to a plot?

One thousand books! Even the estimable Jules Maigret wrote only 400 or so. However, if you call 10,000 words a novella, I suppose he wrote more WORDS. (And earned more money. I am astounded that anyone could live comfortably on $50K a year.

>How long can anyone do that?

Well, even if the OP can keep it up, I doubt the market will stay stable enough for the model to last more than a couple or three years. Already I sense that Jeff Bezos has put us in a tight place where we either spend as much on advertising as we earn, or else we find another hobby. I doubt it's really a business any longer, except for a few dozen lucky or obsessed people, and I'll be that the makeup of the few dozen changes every year or two.


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## Fortunate (Jul 31, 2018)

Bixso said:


> You also didn't mention things out of people's control. Such as authors by their author pictures and biography which display their race, or them being LGBT, which could impact their reader base. Hell, you can even add authors who aren't "beautiful", and don't have a huge social media following as well.


I sold thousands of books with NO author picture (I just used a book cover for one pen name, and a logo for another) and without any information about sexuality in the biography. In fact, almost nothing that tells you anything about me. Those things are VERY MUCH in your control. If you want to advertise them in your biography, that's fine, go ahead, but don't say they're outside of your control.

I don't think most readers look at author biographies anyway, at least not until they become something of a fan.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

This thread has become kind of depressing--where's the reverence for craft? The love of writing? What are we striving for here?

Anyway, working for the average minimum wage for 15-18 hours a day will bring in about $4000 monthly. Kudos to anyone with that kind of work ethic.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

Dpock said:


> This thread has become kind of depressing--where's the reverence for craft? The love of writing? What are we striving for here?
> 
> Anyway, working for the average minimum wage for 15-18 hours a day will bring in about $4000 monthly. Kudos to anyone with that kind of work ethic.


That's the bottom line in this thread. An income of $4K per month is equivalent to working two dead-end jobs. If one of them is McDonalds, you also get free food. The big advantage of dead-end jobs is that they're widely available, and you don't have to worry after work about how your career could take a turn for the worst because of some crazy change at KDP.

Most of us don't work at McDonalds because we prefer to do something else, but when it comes to making a living over the long term, for most people, it beats writing. I do it because I like it, and I thank God that I don't have to depend on it to pay my bills.


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## girluo (Feb 17, 2020)

I am happy for your success Cassie and if you are happy-  then more power to you. 

Unfortunately, most of us have obligations that would prevent us from working 15-18 hours a day, except on holidays. I require more than 1.39 an hour for my whole life to be sacrificed to anything.

I do not agree with your methods and I would call your results good but I would not define you as successful. I agree with everyone else here, that you are a person who would be successful at anything you tried.

I would define a successful person as someone making a living, doing what they love, and still having a life. I feel that if I could work 15-18 hours a day churning, I could make a lot more money that 4k a month. I would do if for someone else so I got health care and free utilities. I would not have living expenses because I would just need a bed to sleep in. 

There is another person writing the same way you do, Hope Ford. But she is making 7k a month, pushing one story a week on one pen without advertising.

My advice to you is to take a look at all those pens - find your two best selling - and focus on what your competition is doing better than you - and adapt. With your output - you could be a 5 figure a month author.

Good luck and God Speed!


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Several things:

1. I agree with Crystal, Patty and Rick. That's a lot of words that you don't have working for you. If you learned marketing, wrote actual books, and learned about branding you would probably quadruple that number pretty quickly and put in less work.

2. For the number of titles you're talking about, that's not a lot of money in my book. When you consider the hours you're putting in, I think my soul would be crushed. Again, full books are your friend at this point. You basically have a backlist that's almost completely worthless and that is terrifying in and of itself.

3. To those complaining about the art of it: Let's get it together. The title of the thread was about making a living. If you want to be a tortured artist, that's all well and good. Most of us want to be able to be creative AND make money at it. If you don't want to make money and just focus on the art, more power to you. That's not everybody, though.

4. As for the initial question, no, not everybody can make a go at this. I've seen more failures than successes. And, if you're happy with 4K a month -- and good on anyone who can make it on that -- then that's great. When I start thinking about taxes, covers, editing, audio, etc. ... 4K would be akin to negative numbers so that would not be "making it" to me. It's great that you're happy with that, though.

5. As for the dude attacking Patty, just ... stop. All her points were well made and true. I get you like being contrary just to be contrary but let it go.


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## Wunder (Sep 2, 2017)

The thing that troubles me the most about the OPs business plan (and it's absolutely not my business to tell anyone how to run their business or their life. So let me just get that out of the way) is the fact there's nothing in it that speaks to longevity. Sure, we can beat the drum about Amazon making some change that would devastate our careers,and that might be true, but in the same breath we always need to be planning for the future. While there's no replacing a dedicated retirement fund, a back list of marketable full length books has its merits in this regard. Novellas, for the most part and in my experience, don't have anything close to the same staying power. 

When Amanda mentioned that your backlist might be nearly completely worthless, I think she may have hit the nail on the head. 

More than that, you're working way too hard instead of smart. With that work ethic and determination, you could make SO MUCH MORE than 4k a month. It just needs to be directed into full length books. 

In addition, this whole 'art vs commerce' discussion doesn't belong in a thread where the main objective is as clear as it is in this one.


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> No, I don't think "anyone" can make a living self-publishing. Not by a long shot.
> 
> There will be many people who don't have the determination to finish what they started, or get their book into a shape where it's at least remotely readable.
> 
> ...


Patty does not bring her point across in a kind and pleasing way. Her method is using a 10 pound sledge hammer. I agreed with her on this. She brings up valid points. And as much as I want to find something to ease the pain of others. I can't. She is 100% correct on this one. A lot of what she is talking about has happened to me. A little success. Disappear for 7 years. No proper media promotion or editing, poor book covers. Does not do a lot of good to write a great story if readers have to walk through a mine field to get to the next page.

I often get offended by Patty how she holds nothing back in her reply's. But, I feel she knows what she is talking about. She's not shy. Rough on the edges. A valued member. The word come to mind (Tough Love) She does not sugar coat. Sometimes I feel like she slaps people up side the head. I have always been a protector and if people are being bulllied I step in.
If you want success, put on your big boy pants or for the ladies poor a stiff drink and sit down and listen to what she has to say. She knows her stuff. She's the girl everyone hates to love. We all need her kind.


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## EmberKent (Nov 24, 2018)

I feel Patty comes across as rude because writing, and art in general, is an unusually personal craft. Everything can feel targeted, especially if what she says goes against what you think writing, and writing successfully, should be like. Once you take the emotion out of it, she's not only concise but particularly aware of how craft relates to success and process. Even if you disagree, there's value to be gleaned from her posts.

Personally, I really appreciate that directness. It's a language that speaks to me more effectively than a praise sandwich. But I can very easily see how it rubs others the wrong way, especially those who are very deeply attached to their process. It doesn't come as a surprise that people who might see their books as their babies might also see direct contradiction as an attack.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I do wish there was more love of craft in the indie space. Truly, the thing I miss most about college (BFAs represent) and screenwriting is the appreciation of craft. It's honestly one of the biggest empty spots in my life. No one appreciates/sees the hard work I do! No one is around to discuss character, plot, pacing, etc. I'd kill for an Inside the Writers' Studio type discussion with every new book, but readers aren't really on that level and authors are too busy.

I'm still not sure how much craft factors into success, but I think it's a pretty big factor. It's just not the typical good/bad writing dichotomy. It's more about meeting just enough genre expectations.

Personally, I think about craft A LOT in every element of my business. The book itself takes 80% of my energy but there's also the series, the cover, the blurb, the copy, the ad images, the cohesion of all of the above.

I write romance and I often feel limited by genre expectations, but I try to make it work. The truth is it's just as hard to write a book that doesn't sell. In fact, a lot of the books I worked hardest on are the ones that sold the least. But packaging makes such a difference.

Last year, I rewrote and repacked my first series, a true commerical failure (at the time of unpublishing, the trilogy was in the red) that went way off genre. I expected the first book in the trilogy to make maybe 5k, but it's at almost 15k after 14 months and it's on track to make $50/day ($100/day total for the three in the series) as long as my very low effort AMS ad holds up (it spend about $50/week).

Nothing to write home about for me--I expect my new novels to hit 100k within a year or two--except for the turnaround. It went from a dud that would not sell to a solid backlist entry (I think it had made 3k in about three years before I unpublished it. Keep in mind I had many books that cleared six figures in income in that time). (The other two have only been out a few months and they're earning more slowly. They aren't standalones, and the series has no cliffhangers (I know) so I can't really promote then expect by selling book one. I am expecting them to cross 10k/each by the end of the year).

It's all about packaging. Which is a skill. A skill you can learn. It's really, really hard but it is possible.


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## Corvid (May 15, 2014)

What do many fiction titles among the top 100k in the entire Kindle Store have in common?

Professional covers that clearly convey genre
Non-convoluted blurbs with calls to action, premise/concept clearly discernible as part of targeted genre
Look Insides that clearly reflect what's on the cover and in the blurb
Usually 220 pages in length each - at minimum
Prudent pricing for what's on offer
A recognizable author name
Part of a continuing series
Published by APub
Usually 10 or more ratings/reviews
Advertised with a heavy spend and/or a lot of marketing savvy

If you're:

New to self-publishing
Do not usually - or have never - had books in the top 100k in the entire store
Are not now - or have never - made enough from self-publishing to 'make a living'...

Ask yourself how many from the first list - from a purely objective standpoint (i.e. all things being equal) - are within your control?

I would posit most, however, recognizing the checklist and making the checklist is easy... ticking off those boxes is hard. Not just from a cost perspective, but other factors as well.

And, I would say not everyone has the ability to check many/most of those boxes off, for various reasons, up to and including the limits of one's own perception. That can be a frightening prospect.

Hitting each of those marks somewhat consistently per title, aside from the monetary investment alone, means achieving a certain level of objectivity about your output. A lot of people are incapable of that... again, for various reasons.


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## VisitasKeat (Oct 15, 2018)

OP, thank you for sharing your success. You are a wonderful inspiration to the community. Reader satisfaction is the most important factor than anything else. So, please be very proud of your catalogue and don't allow yourself to be discouraged or intimidated by those who rubbish your books. And don't get brainwashed by length gurus. The greatness of a story lies in the beauty of narration and not in the length. Let your stories have your quintessential signature and style. The story always determines the length and if it needs to long or short then so be the case. The greatness of indie publishing lies in doing things your way, without self-censorship, and without imitating the celebrity authors on this forum or elsewhere. Keep up your good work and go for 2000 published books.


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## Trioxin 245 (Dec 29, 2017)

There are two camps in the 'what happened to the art/love of writing?'  The first are those who genuinely love the craft and will write their hearts desire and are not concerned about monetary rewards. The second group are those that are scared. They have allowed fear and their ego to dictate  excuses on why they are not doing well. Common excuses are
People just don\t like good writing anymore
If someone is going to judge my book by its cover then they are going to lose out.
Customer expectations in a genre? I won\t bow to the needs of the masses.
Bezos conspiracy
There is a secret and the meanies on kboards wont tell me.

Point  being,  those that are  struggling or cant make a living  fail because they refuse to meet customer expectations.


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## Trioxin 245 (Dec 29, 2017)

One more thing about Patty being blunt. A few years back I asked about writing and she told me in no uncertain terms to stop publishing stand  alones and write in series. So I took her advice and my early career changed for the better. I was here once fretting about bookbub. I needed advice, I was worried. Her reply?  Stop worrying and start writing. Blunt but  great advice. I focused on writing my next book, forgot about the BB until the acceptance letter came in.
Stop being butthurt by her answers and consider if they might in fact be helping you.


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## Dayseye (Mar 20, 2018)

Well said. 

Advice given on a peer-to-peer basis doesn't need to be dressed up in diplomatic language. 

I consider it an honour to be considered as a peer by Patty.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Trioxin 245 said:


> There are two camps in the 'what happened to the art/love of writing?' The first are those who genuinely love the craft and will write their hearts desire and are not concerned about monetary rewards. The second group are those that are scared. They have allowed fear and their ego to dictate excuses on why they are not doing well. Common excuses are
> People just don\t like good writing anymore
> If someone is going to judge my book by its cover then they are going to lose out.
> Customer expectations in a genre? I won\t bow to the needs of the masses.
> ...


You're definitely right about the excuses. I would say I've heard them all, but people constantly surprise me. You're also right about those with a love of writing. But I think monetary rewards enter into the equation even with them. If you have the talent and find that you can make a living through your writing, what you'll earn enters into the equation before beginning a new project. At least at some level. A writer might risk it and depart from fan expectations to satisfy a creative urge. But they know it's a risk. A drop in income has been factored in. Commonly they will produce more of what people want and do the "other thing" as a passion project. Incidentally, they experience fear too. Fear of returning to a day job.
The _misunderstood genius_ is by far my favorite BS excuse. It displays an complete lack of self awareness that is amusing to witness. Readers just don't have the capacity to understand them, apparently. Stupid readers and their dumb books. After all, they used difficult to comprehend metaphors on every page and at least half a dozen five-syllable words in each paragraph. What's not to like? For these people, you will notice that they hate anything - and anyone - popular. If you want a laugh, mention that they use too much "purple prose" and watch them lose their mind.


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## Trioxin 245 (Dec 29, 2017)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> You're definitely right about the excuses. I would say I've heard them all, but people constantly surprise me. You're also right about those with a love of writing. But I think monetary rewards enter into the equation even with them. If you have the talent and find that you can make a living through your writing, what you'll earn enters into the equation before beginning a new project. At least at some level. A writer might risk it and depart from fan expectations to satisfy a creative urge. But they know it's a risk. A drop in income has been factored in. Commonly they will produce more of what people want and do the "other thing" as a passion project. Incidentally, they experience fear too. Fear of returning to a day job.
> The _misunderstood genius_ is by far my favorite BS excuse. It displays an complete lack of self awareness that is amusing to witness. Readers just don't have the capacity to understand them, apparently. Stupid readers and their dumb books. After all, they used difficult to comprehend metaphors on every page and at least half a dozen five-syllable words in each paragraph. What's not to like? For these people, you will notice that they hate anything - and anyone - popular. If you want a laugh, mention that they use too much "purple prose" and watch them lose their mind.


 You are right. Also it usually starts with 'I have decided to write literary fiction....' They have read a Mccarthy novel and now think that their prose is brilliant. Four paragraphs describing the most mundane object.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

I read every post to this thread. This works for me because I live in an affordable city. I couldn't maintain this lifestyle in La or New York. There is an audience for everything. You can write about aliens stealing pandas. Someone will buy it, and if you write thousands of books like that and move to an affordable city, you can make a living selling books. I've always loved being an author. My prose isn't good enough to make any bestseller list, but I have fans, and I love creating stories. If I were not writing books, I would be working fast food and selling cheap articles. Today, I'm sitting in front of my TV and writing something that's entertaining to me and my fans. It's sure better than working all day at mc Donald's and burger king. This thread is for the underdogs. You don't have to be great, you can succeed being good enough. In the future, I will switch to novels. For now, this pays my bills. I get paid for creating fiction and sitting in front of the TV. Where I come from, it's an enviable job. If you're from middle class America, I'm sure you don't understand the pain of poverty, or the happiness that comes from not being treated like crap by rude managers and customers to pay bills. If you're in deep poverty, and you don't have time or money to spend on crafting the perfect novel, and crossing your fingers that your 9 published books a year will pay your bills, this publishing strategy may work for you until you can save money and give more time to writing 9 books a year and hitting the publishing jackpot.


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## boba1823 (Aug 13, 2017)

Bixso said:


> I love how you comment about people not promoting well, yet did not list one single advertising site.
> 
> Because inquiring minds would love to know. How do I promote my books better? Because every site I have come across has a huge caveat, or seems fishy.


Facebook.

Er.. alright, Facebook probably qualifies as being fishy  But still, that's where it's at. I mean paid ads of course, not all that free stuff that some people attempt to do because they aren't serious about marketing.

If you can't sell your books via Facebook ads, you know one of two things is true: 1) You don't know how to market; or 2) Your books aren't commercially viable. (Wow, that really narrows it down, eh? Seriously though, it's better than having to wonder if random weird 'promo' site just sent out your book to the 10,000 fake email addresses on their list, etc.)

Other people do other things, sometimes successfully even. That's cool - I just can't really give any advice regarding those approaches. Amazon ads seem to work for some people. I'll probably try them some day, though it seems like they are mostly hitting KU readers - and my books aren't in KU, and they're priced high, so my guess is that's not a good fit. I do think, though, that anyone who is having success with a different approach could _also_ succeed with a Facebook-oriented advertising approach.

Learning to do it by trial and error (i.e. testing) is highly effective. Have to put in the $$s to do that, though. So not really something I would recommend to anyone who lacks serious commercial intentions.


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## Wunder (Sep 2, 2017)

Cassie B said:


> I read every post to this thread. This works for me because I live in an affordable city. I couldn't maintain this lifestyle in La or New York. There is an audience for everything. You can write about aliens stealing pandas. Someone will buy it, and if you write thousands of books like that and move to an affordable city, you can make a living selling books. I've always loved being an author. My prose isn't good enough to make any bestseller list, but I have fans, and I love creating stories. If I were not writing books, I would be working fast food and selling cheap articles. Today, I'm sitting in front of my TV and writing something that's entertaining to me and my fans. It's sure better than working all day at mc Donald's and burger king. This thread is for the underdogs. You don't have to be great, you can succeed being good enough. In the future, I will switch to novels. For now, this pays my bills. I get paid for creating fiction and sitting in front of the TV. Where I come from, it's an enviable job. If you're from middle class America, I'm sure you don't understand the pain of poverty, or the happiness that comes from not being treated like crap by rude managers and customers to pay bills. If you're in deep poverty, and you don't have time or money to spend on crafting the perfect novel, and crossing your fingers that your 9 published books a year will pay your bills, this publishing strategy may work for you until you can save money and give more time to writing 9 books a year and hitting the publishing jackpot.


I understand where you're coming from, and I hope that I didn't come off as condescending or pushy. All any of us can give is our opinions. I know what it is to live with the kind of poverty you're talking about, the kind of poverty that shapes you almost entirely. Before I became a writer, to say I lived paycheck to paycheck would have been an overstatement. The advice I'm giving you, and while I don't speak for anyone else I can assume everyone whose given you advice has done so for the same reason, isn't a judgement. You're obviously driven and you obviously don't mind doing the work I want to see you (as well as all the people on this board who are driven, fair, and willing to do the work) succeed. The advice is just the best way I know how to help you do that. Congrats on your success, and I wish you more of it in the future.

To answer the question posed in the thread, I think anyone who is _like you_ will likely succeed in this business.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Cassie B said:


> I read every post to this thread. This works for me because I live in an affordable city. I couldn't maintain this lifestyle in La or New York. There is an audience for everything. You can write about aliens stealing pandas. Someone will buy it, and if you write thousands of books like that and move to an affordable city, you can make a living selling books. I've always loved being an author. My prose isn't good enough to make any bestseller list, but I have fans, and I love creating stories. If I were not writing books, I would be working fast food and selling cheap articles. Today, I'm sitting in front of my TV and writing something that's entertaining to me and my fans. It's sure better than working all day at mc Donald's and burger king. This thread is for the underdogs. You don't have to be great, you can succeed being good enough. In the future, I will switch to novels. For now, this pays my bills. I get paid for creating fiction and sitting in front of the TV. Where I come from, it's an enviable job. If you're from middle class America, I'm sure you don't understand the pain of poverty, or the happiness that comes from not being treated like crap by rude managers and customers to pay bills. If you're in deep poverty, and you don't have time or money to spend on crafting the perfect novel, and crossing your fingers that your 9 published books a year will pay your bills, this publishing strategy may work for you until you can save money and give more time to writing 9 books a year and hitting the publishing jackpot.


Nobody is judging. Just out of curiosity, though: Would you rather work eight hours a day and make 10K a month or 15 hours a day and make 4K a month? The problem you have is that short works don't sell as well as long works. It sounds like you're writing erotica, which means you can never build a sustainable backlist. All that work you're doing isn't going into your future. It's going into your present. If you write full novels, the chances of them sustaining your lifestyle in the future is so much greater. Wouldn't you like to be debt-free? How about having an investment portfolio? How about having a plan for an actual retirement? If you keep working like this, odds of that happening aren't good. Also, you're one illness away from losing all momentum.
It's great that you're happy with your present but looking at the future seems like the only way to go at this point.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Nobody is judging. Just out of curiosity, though: Would you rather work eight hours a day and make 10K a month or 15 hours a day and make 4K a month? The problem you have is that short works don't sell as well as long works. It sounds like you're writing erotica, which means you can never build a sustainable backlist. All that work you're doing isn't going into your future. It's going into your present. If you write full novels, the chances of them sustaining your lifestyle in the future is so much greater. Wouldn't you like to be debt-free? How about having an investment portfolio? How about having a plan for an actual retirement? If you keep working like this, odds of that happening aren't good. Also, you're one illness away from losing all momentum.
> It's great that you're happy with your present but looking at the future seems like the only way to go at this point.


That was sort of my point, too. Long term strategies. That much work takes a toll. I'm sure I'm not alone in understanding how unhealthy a writer can get sitting behind a PC from months at a time. It's the main reason I'm transitioning away from indie to traditional. Keeping up with all the new talent and the demands of high indie production pushes me way past the point my body can stay healthy. 10 years....I was 175 lbs when I started. Over 250 lbs now.


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## memememe (Feb 16, 2016)

Cassie B said:


> My prose isn't good enough to make any bestseller list


Can you please stop short-changing yourself?

I haven't read your work but I'm sure you are wrong.


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## nail file (Sep 12, 2018)

Good gravy, what is with all this singling Patty out? This is not the first thread that has had commentors who went after her for her straight-forward style, calling her blunt and rude. 

There are a few more on this thread right now who are equally straight-forward but they are rarely called out. Not to the degree Patty seems to have leveled at her.


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

> Good gravy, what is with all this singling Patty out? This is not the first thread that has had commentors who went after her for her straight-forward style, calling her blunt and rude.


gotta agree with this. And maybe I'm missing something, but I've never seen her be rude. In fact i've seen several people be very rude over the years, but i've never seen her attack or insult anyone the way some have. What am I missing here?


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

Cassie, I’m in awe that you can work 15 hour days. Do you mean 15 hours totally devoted to writing? Or do you include mealtimes and some writing breaks in that? Do you split up the 15 hours, being sure to give yourself some breaks?


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## EmberKent (Nov 24, 2018)

Vidya said:


> Cassie, I'm in awe that you can work 15 hour days. Do you mean 15 hours totally devoted to writing? Or do you include mealtimes and some writing breaks in that? Do you split up the 15 hours, being sure to give yourself some breaks?


She mentioned she does it often in front of the TV, so likely not with total focus. But that's still a huge commitment, even with multitasking.


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## BGArcher (Jun 14, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Nobody is judging. Just out of curiosity, though: Would you rather work eight hours a day and make 10K a month or 15 hours a day and make 4K a month? The problem you have is that short works don't sell as well as long works. It sounds like you're writing erotica, which means you can never build a sustainable backlist. All that work you're doing isn't going into your future. It's going into your present. If you write full novels, the chances of them sustaining your lifestyle in the future is so much greater. Wouldn't you like to be debt-free? How about having an investment portfolio? How about having a plan for an actual retirement? If you keep working like this, odds of that happening aren't good. Also, you're one illness away from losing all momentum.
> It's great that you're happy with your present but looking at the future seems like the only way to go at this point.


I think these are very good points and I have a question, since I'm aware of how well you're doing. If someone who has proven they can make a living (at the 4k a month level) what would your next step be, advice wise? they have a foundation to work with, but if it's erotica that doesn't work. How would you suggest they build it up to 10K?


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

memememe said:


> Can you please stop short-changing yourself?
> 
> I haven't read your work but I'm sure you are wrong.


Thanks for the compliment.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

Vidya said:


> Cassie, I'm in awe that you can work 15 hour days. Do you mean 15 hours totally devoted to writing? Or do you include mealtimes and some writing breaks in that? Do you split up the 15 hours, being sure to give yourself some breaks?


I do take breaks to cook. I can't work for that many hours without noise. I use a meal delivery service. The show is usually a rerun. I can't watch anything new. It would be a distraction. I started a novel today, and I'm somewhat overwhelmed. I know I can finish it in a week. The structure is different from short stories, so it's kind of daunting.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Cassie B said:


> I do take breaks to cook. I can't work for that many hours without noise. I use a meal delivery service. The show is usually a rerun. I can't watch anything new. It would be a distraction. I started a novel today, and I'm somewhat overwhelmed. I know I can finish it in a week. The structure is different from short stories, so it's kind of daunting.


Longer books are more difficult when it comes to maintaining continuity. If you are a pantser (discovery writer) you would do well to type out a outline as you write so you can refer back when you need to. List your names and places, particularly if you use odd spellings. 
You say you're finishing it in a week? I assume you mean the first draft, which in itself would be extremely fast. Are you sure it's a "novel"? Though there are varying thoughts and opinions on this, a novel is approximately 40k words or more. Less is a Novella from and 15k words to 40k. Novelette falls in between Novella and short story. Different lists will give different parameters, but that falls pretty close. 
If you want to write longer books and step into a larger field, editing will become important. There is no such thing as self editing in reality. Self editing is nothing more than another draft. Real editing is something different entirely. Yeah. I know. I'll hear all sorts of BS over that statement. But I stand by it. If you're truly worried over bad prose, I would suggest a line editor, followed by a copy editor.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

To the OP: While I agree with the others in this thread who've suggested that writing longer works and in series and focusing on just a few pen names and building up a sustainable backlist and using advertising is an easier way to get to where you are now and where you want to go, I also want to urge some caution in making changes.

Different length stories have different requirements to them and sometimes an author can be good at one length of story and not be able to write well at another length of story. (I saw this recently with an author who was actually better at full-length novels as opposed to novellas, so it isn't just one way or another.) So while novels are going to be more successful long-term it could be a jarring change to try to move to that length.

Also, now that you've exposed yourself to other writers and their opinions on how to write, be careful that you don't take on too much of their beliefs about how you should write when those opinions aren't in line with what will work for you.

For example, I have seen pantsers take on advice from plotters that ended up destroying their writing pace because it didn't work for them. (For the record, I'm a complete pantser and can pants a 115K novel just fine, but plotters think that's not possible and tell me all sorts of ways I'm supposed to write that would freeze me in place if I actually tried them. Or they tell me that's not possible and I must somehow be lying about my process.)

Do what works for you to get those words down.

Also, understand that someone who can consistently write at the pace you write is a very rare unicorn (although Amanda M. Lee is another one) so if you're going to start interacting a lot with other writers and talking about your writing speed and approach you need to insulate yourself to a certain extent from those who can't write the way you do. 

Which is not to say that you shouldn't consider the fact that there are easier paths to where you want be, but I just know from my own writing path and from coaching authors who've been hit by some of these issues that they can crop up and really impact an author who was doing well before they hit. In fact, I've seen authors completely derailed by some of these issues for months. So be sure you're covered enough to take that hit before you try to change too much too fast.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

OP, good for you that you are making some money doing this.

Let me ask this. Are your books romance or erotica repackaged as romance like many of the novellas dominating the short reads romance chart?

I used to buy novellas like crazy back in the days. Now I buy a novella maybe every 2 months. The charts are full of erotica repackaged as romance and sometimes amish or mail order bride romance.

I also don't enjoy the super short 1 hour reads. They never focus on the romance, they focus on the steamy scenes.

I both agree and disagree with you. I just think writing and publishing for up to 18 hours a day is exhausting and not something that you can continue long term.

Some people are not making a living writing and self publishing. I see their posts and comments on youtube, here, reddit and any where else that self publishing is discussed. I see people saying they can not sell 10 books a month or they are making so little money they cannot even buy a starbucks coffee every month.

I see your kinds of posts, similar to the dataporn posts on reddit all the time. Quite a few new authors or ex erotica authors are writing very steamy romance or borderline erotica/romance.

Some are not paying for editing, proofreading or a cover artist which is fine if you can do it yourself to a decent standard. Some are paying for a quick proofread and a cheap cover. They are publishing as many titles as they can and making enough to cover their bills.

It's better than going to work in a depressing job for 8 hours a day.

However, You have to pump out these super short romance books because many of the readers are looking for a quick fix and many of them are borrowing as many of these titles as they can in KU.

As far as I see it and I've seen it discussed on reddit. If you took a long break to travel, have a family or relax and spend more time with your friends & family that steady income would drop significantly.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Good work Cassie B!

I love the work ethic. I've had a lot of terrible writing jobs as a freelancer and before that as uni student. Debt collection ugh. You're completely correct - writing shorts for $4K a month is a million times better than most jobs out there.


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## Drakon (Dec 6, 2014)

Cassie B said:


> Thanks for the compliment.


I am in AWE.

Of what you have accomplished. Especially since the writers' market is becoming ever more crowded and competitive.

While you have this tremendous creative energy to write so many short reads, Go for IT.

Eventually you will have FAV scenes and characters that you can visualize putting into full length novels. The material will be right there in your back list.

I was surprised to see a number of outstanding Romance authors, such as Lisa Kleypas are now listing their historical romances on Amazon as - EROTICA.


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## Kristy Tate (Apr 24, 2012)

Have you considered bundling your books/creating box sets? I don't know how much you're selling your novellas for, but it's (obviously) much easier to sell one 300 page book than 3 100 page books, plus you get the bonus of pages read if your books are in KU.


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

I love reading and responding to threads like this because there is such a diverse set of opinions spoken by passionate writers here. Nobody is really wrong if they are giving their opinion - since opinions are personal and very subjective.

Still, since the premise is that "Anyone can make a living self publishing," just for the hell of it, let's rephrase that statement with a question.

"How many of the readers at kboards Writers' Cafe who want to, are making a living self publishing?"

Nobody needs to reply, but everyone knows which side of that question they are on. As for me, no, I'm not making a living self publishing. My books do well overall, but don't pay all the bills. No way. I supplement in many ways - ghostwriting books, blogs, articles, and other more mundane work. And, my opinion is that not 5% of the readers here can say they make a living from (and only from) self publishing, even if that's what they want.

Sorry to be a downer, but that's my reality. Saying you love writing and publishing is great, but it likely doesn't pay the mortgage. It doesn't make the OP wrong from her belief system, and it certainly doesn't make Patty wrong or mean for saying the statement is flawed. If you had no other income but self publishing, could you even make enough to feed your family? Most people can't.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I am going by late 2016 numbers (that I recall), so take it with a grain of salt, but the Author Earnings Report at that time was something like this:

5,000 authors make more than 25K a year
2,500 authors make more than 50K a year
1,000 authors make more than 100K a year
A few hundred authors make more than 250K a year
A hundred authors make more than 500K a year
A few dozen authors make more than 1 million a year

That is all authors--indie, tradpub, APub. I do know that most authors have to spend more on marketing now than they did in 2016, so gross (as reported above) is not net. And some of the "authors" above have multiple pen names. But those are the figures--at least they were in 2016. 

So I'll say kudos to the OP for her (his?) work ethic, and I hope she/he finds a way to continue without burning out. Every very successful author I know, though, works a LOT. I spent my first five years working 10-12 hours a day, seven days a week, but I'm not a super fast writer. Many folks can go much faster, and can get their words out in far fewer hours.  (I write at max 500-600K edited words a year. While I'm actually writing a book, I can do about 2,500-3,500 fully edited words on a normal day, but I'm only writing about 60% of the time, as it takes a while to think up and research a book.)

Lots of ways to do this job, and lots of ways to succeed, too. It definitely takes effort, though. Some people spend most of that effort on the book, others spend most of it on the marketing, some people split their time equally. But it always takes effort to succeed *over time.* (Not as hard to have a hit with one book or one series, but still not easy!)


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> 5,000 authors make more than 25K a year
> 2,500 authors make more than 50K a year
> 1,000 authors make more than 100K a year
> A few hundred authors make more than 250K a year
> ...


Just to be sure--that's to be read "Of *those* 5000, 2500 make $50k a year..." and so on? If yes, then 5000 _total_ make a living (if $25k is the defining threshold)?


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## Drakon (Dec 6, 2014)

2,500 authors make $50,000 per yr out of how many? 

A million?


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Dpock said:


> Just to be sure--that's to be read "Of *those* 5000, 2500 make $50k a year..." and so on? If yes, then 5000 _total_ make a living (if $25k is the defining threshold)?


This article covered the 2016 report in enough detail to show some of the numbers: https://publishingperspectives.com/2016/06/author-earnings-more-data-profitable-authors/


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Drakon said:


> 2,500 authors make $50,000 per yr out of how many?


All authors who publish?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Dpock said:


> Just to be sure--that's to be read "Of *those* 5000, 2500 make $50k a year..." and so on? If yes, then 5000 _total_ make a living (if $25k is the defining threshold)?


Yes. 5000 total made 25K plus a year (in 2016, per Author Earnings, and other caveats I am sure I have forgotten).

ETA: Out of all authors (or pen names) published on online stores.

There is a huge difference between median and mean in author incomes, because the people at the very top earn so much.

I want to take a moment to say - do not let those numbers stop you from publishing. I was myself very nearly deterred by similar conversations before I published. I only did it because of a bad diagnosis. I literally said out loud, as I pushed the button, "May as well try."

We all may as well try. What else are you going to do with your wonderful stories? If something does not work, move on and learn more and try again. If it gets too discouraging, you can always stop. But you may as well try before you give up. Nobody ever succeeded by giving up before they started.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

There are some indications (Amazon's press releases, for one) that the numbers have roughly doubled in the four years since Author Earnings put out that report. Which would mean about 10k writers making $25k+. Or something in that ballpark.

Can anyone be a full-time indie writer? Well, sure. Sort of. If they're willing to put in crazy long hours, write a half-million or more words a year in a hot genre, have the money to package them well and market them properly, absolutely. Almost anyone doing all those things can become a full-time indie author, given enough time, practice, and effort.

But it's a useless question. I mean, anyone can become a doctor, too. All it takes is getting excellent high school grades to get into a good college, then eight more years of intense education followed by another year or so of absolute misery as an intern.  Just about anybody CAN do it. Most people don't want to.

If you put as many hours and as much money into going full time as an indie writer over the course of nine years as someone spends preparing to become a doctor, I can just about guarantee that by the end of the nine years you'll be making wages similar to the doctor, if not more.

Like any highly skilled profession, writing is a field that requires an immense investment of time, and usually a fair investment of money as well. If you want to get paid like a doctor, expect to put in the same long hours they did getting there.

If that's not for you, it's OK. It's not for everyone. That's why not everyone becomes a doctor.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Yes. 5000 total made 25K plus a year


Very roughly then, it means 4-6% of all authors (numbers from Statistica) make a living (if $25k is the benchmark).


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## PenNPaper (Apr 21, 2016)

If I had a thousand books out and was only making $4k a year, I'd quit. Too much work for too little return. As it is now, I work more hours than I'd like (maybe 50 or so a week? maybe more? I should really add them up sometime) but I'll probably make $65k this month. To me, that's well worth it and takes the sting out of all those hours. 

I really don't know how you keep at. I'm genuinely in awe of that kind of perseverance.


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## EmberKent (Nov 24, 2018)

PenNPaper said:


> As it is now, I work more hours than I'd like (maybe 50 or so a week? maybe more? I should really add them up sometime) but I'll probably make $65k this month. To me, that's well worth it and takes the sting out of all those hours.


You are making 65,000 dollars in February from book sales?


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## PenNPaper (Apr 21, 2016)

EmberKent said:


> You are making 65,000 dollars in February from book sales?


Yes. Ebook, print, and audio combined.


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## EmberKent (Nov 24, 2018)

PenNPaper said:


> Yes. Ebook, print, and audio combined.


That's incredible. Well done!


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## PenNPaper (Apr 21, 2016)

EmberKent said:


> That's incredible. Well done!


Thanks!


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> There are some indications (Amazon's press releases, for one) ...


Can you provide a link?

I wasn't finding the direct Amazon press release, but this article indicates more than 1,000 authors surpassing $100K in royalties as of 2018 and I want to say that somewhere recently someone mentioned that they used the exact same wording for 2019.
https://the-digital-reader.com/2019/05/07/amazon-over-1000-authors-each-earned-over-100-grand-in-royalties-in-2018/

You're also assuming that if the top authors are earning more than incomes are rising at all levels and I really don't think that's true. I think we're seeing a consolidation of income at the upper levels with a large number of mid-level and and entry-level authors earning less (especially in terms of net income) on average now than four years ago.


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## Doktor von Zwitter (Jul 7, 2019)

I make next to nil, my sales are pretty much nonexistent.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Doktor von Zwitter said:


> I make next to nil, my sales are pretty much nonexistent.


You gotta start somewhere.

This 2019 Author Income survey delivers the big picture:

https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/2019-author-survey-bonus-statistics/


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

Some times the best words are Left unsaid.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

Doktor von Zwitter said:


> I make next to nil, my sales are pretty much nonexistent.


Aww, it's going to be fine. You need to promote your books better, (something I also need to do), and you should see an increase in sales/readers too.

Maybe you can do a Goodreads giveaway?


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> There are some indications (Amazon's press releases, for one) that the numbers have roughly doubled in the four years since Author Earnings put out that report. Which would mean about 10k writers making $25k+. Or something in that ballpark.
> 
> Can anyone be a full-time indie writer? Well, sure. Sort of. If they're willing to put in crazy long hours, write a half-million or more words a year in a hot genre, have the money to package them well and market them properly, absolutely. Almost anyone doing all those things can become a full-time indie author, given enough time, practice, and effort.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's fair to compare writing, to being a doctor.

Writing is a pop culture occupation, which "wanting" sadly isn't enough. It is entirely based on luck and timing. Such as being an actor, singer, famous Youtube vlogger etc. All of that is based on luck and timing as far as success. You can study writing craft until the cows come home. LUCK AND TIMING. Sorry. This also goes to getting a writing idea, outlining, having your cover be the way you want it etc. All of that really comes down to luck and timing, if you think about it.

A literary agent accepting your manuscript, and a publishing house adding your name to their roster. LUCK.

Okay, since this is mainly for self pub authors, becoming a bestseller as an indie author. LUCK.

Being a doctor takes a specific person. First of all, someone who wants to be a doctor. Some people have no desire to be a doctor. It also takes someone who has the mental capacity to be a doctor. Hospitals make me feel uncomfortable, and I'm not grossed out by blood and all that, but I just don't have the personality to be a doctor. I can write however just fine, and I don't feel any type of way about that.

Second of all, luck isn't involved with being a doctor. It's about how gifted and intelligent that person is, as pretty much every doctor is intelligent and gifted. That has nothing to do with luck at all. It has to do with how well he is into academics. If he passes all the tests, and graduates medical school, he's a doctor. That's it. But again, not everyone has the drive to be a doctor, and will fail, or not be interested in working as a doctor. It has nothing to do with luck, like being a writer.

The only luck part would be a doctor winning a Nobel prize. That's luck, and possibly the only luck involved

Third of all, they are completely unrelated occupations. So you're comparing apples to persimmons, which you cannot do. A doctor works in health and medicine, and makes people live healthily. A writer creates art through literature, fiction or non fiction. So not even in the slightest can you compare.

So yeah, I see what you were trying to do with that analogy, but it just didn't quite hit a home run. I'm sorry.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Bixso said:


> Writing is a pop culture occupation, which "wanting" sadly isn't enough. It is entirely based on luck and timing. Such as being an actor, singer, famous Youtube vlogger etc. All of that is based on luck and timing as far as success. You can study writing craft until the cows come home. LUCK AND TIMING. Sorry. This also goes to getting a writing idea, outlining, having your cover be the way you want it etc. All of that really comes down to luck and timing, if you think about it.
> 
> A literary agent accepting your manuscript, and a publishing house adding your name to their roster. LUCK.
> 
> Okay, since this is mainly for self pub authors, becoming a bestseller as an indie author. LUCK.


It isn't only about being lucky. You need to be a great storyteller as well. The better writer and more hard working you are, the less luck you need to be successful. Stratospheric success might rely on a fortuitous confluence of events, but if you can write really compelling fiction and you combine that with a good work ethic, I believe you'll make it in this business so long as you are able to put together a viable product in other areas (as in, the cover and editing).

It isn't luck when a literary agent accepts your manuscript. If they are good at their jobs (and most of them are) then they understand what kind of fiction sells, and the vast majority are good at judging the quality of submissions. Most books - the overhwelming majority - simply are not up to trad's standards when it comes to craft.

Nor is it luck when a self published author is able to make a living out of this. Their books satisfy. They are successful in giving the readers of their genre what they want, which not all writers can do.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Bixso said:


> I don't think it's fair to compare writing, to being a doctor.
> 
> Writing is a pop culture occupation, which "wanting" sadly isn't enough. It is entirely based on luck and timing. Such as being an actor, singer, famous Youtube vlogger etc. All of that is based on luck and timing as far as success. You can study writing craft until the cows come home. LUCK AND TIMING. Sorry. This also goes to getting a writing idea, outlining, having your cover be the way you want it etc. All of that really comes down to luck and timing, if you think about it.
> 
> ...


I've heard this for ten years now. "It's all about luck." It's by far the most frequently used excuse. Even more so than "The world doesn't recognize my genius." Let's examine luck for a moment, using a few of the points you cited. 
Getting a literary agent. Luck? Did the heavens align in such a way that the agent to whom I sent my manuscript loved it, and eagerly emailed me to say they wanted to represent me? Or did I do my footwork ahead of time? Did I search through the thousands of agents to find those who represented books like mine? Did I spend time crafting a query letter that was compelling and begged to be read? Was I prepared with a clean copy of a manuscript that accurately represented my best work? Did I go to the conventions where agents would be in attendance, ready with an elevator pitch, query letter, and a flash drive containing my manuscript? 
As for being a best selling indie. Did Thoth descend upon my book, picked randomly from the celestial literary ether, and encourage readers to buy it? Or did I spend the time editing, creating a great cover, doing months worth of marketing research, and save my money to move a carefully constructed release plan forward? Did I make sure that my book is comparable to the best selling indies in presentation and craft? 
Most importantly: Are my talents and skills at a level I can expect anything more from my books than what I see now? What most best selling indies have in common is they confidently answer yes to this question. When you write a great book in the indie world, word spreads. New talent is an exciting thing to discover. 
Most "bad luck" is nothing more than bad decisions and poor preparation. Successful people, in any field of endeavor, do not rely on luck. When your goals involve something requiring a combination of skill and talent, all the "good luck" in the world won't help. 
This is a narrow field where those at the top have a rare amalgamation of qualities. It's no different than being a world class athlete, scientist, or composer. If anything is luck, it's that you're born with the gifts.


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

Hey, I wish you all the kind of luck Bixso talks about "Writing is a pop culture occupation, which "wanting" sadly isn't enough. It is entirely based on luck and timing. Such as being an actor, singer, famous Youtube vlogger etc. All of that is based on luck and timing as far as success. You can study writing craft until the cows come home. LUCK AND TIMING. Sorry."

Personally, I disagree completely. And, saying that being a doctor is not luck ["Second of all, luck isn't involved with being a doctor. It's about how gifted and intelligent that person is"] now doesn't that apply (with some different elements) to being a writer who can self-publish and make a living? Of course it does. You need mad skills to be a successful writer. Luck is highly overrated, but the harder I work, the luckier I get.


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## Lorri Moulton [Lavender Lass Books] (Jun 15, 2019)

Like any other business, writers need an inventory.  I know there have been cases where one book can hit it big, or two, but most of the time we need an inventory.  Then, there's startup costs, learning curves, promotions, networking, etc. 

People can get lucky at times...but having an inventory of books will give those readers a lot more to buy and enjoy.  Being prepared can make the difference between a 'nice bump' or 'lucky moment' and a lasting career.


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## The Masked Scrivener (Jan 2, 2020)

Can't believe this discussion is still going. If you assume someone is putting in the hard work of writing a good story, gets an appropriate cover and quality editing, and writes a series or four, why can't they make a living self-publishing? Yes, marketing is needed, building a mailing list, and getting seen, but there are plenty of outlets for all that available to everyone.

The truth is that anyone can make a living self-publishing, if they put in the time and effort.

I will give the exception to boring people. If you can't tell a story, you can't succeed. Hiring ghost writers might help you overcome that deficiency.


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## JM Hendrikx (Mar 4, 2019)

That 2019 Author Income survey is interesting reading. Thanks for posting it Dpock. 

The results match with some of the discussions on here - that Literary Fiction and Children's are hard genres to make a living from. 

Congratulations OP on your success. That's amazing.


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## PenNPaper (Apr 21, 2016)

valsavage said:


> She said 4k a month with no ads, not 4k a year.


Right, that's what I meant. Doesn't change anything about what I said. I'd still quit.


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## Drakon (Dec 6, 2014)

Dpock said:


> You gotta start somewhere.
> 
> This 2019 Author Income survey delivers the big picture:
> 
> https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/2019-author-survey-bonus-statistics/


Above is a slash and burn survey of only 1,000 writers. That these writers responded could mean they are not representative of the vast majority. Percentage of income appears way over estimated.

The real question is -

How many published authors are competing for the E-pub market?

What is the total income for the E-pub market?

Then figure the true percentage of earnings for `New/Emerging Authors' out of that.

Amazon ALONE has 7+- million books on Kindle...So...

I'm playing with numbers here - If you figure the average author has 7 books = 1 MILLION authors.

And 2,500 out of that 1,000,000 authors are making $25,000

That's .0025% of authors making $25,000. A quarter of 1%

And the percentages drop way down from there.


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## moshishi (Mar 2, 2017)

Cassie, congratulations on your writing career. You say your college age sister helps edit so I am going to surmise that you are college age too. The long days you put in are what college students put in and what young people put in when they are launching a career and working long hours to impress the boss and pick up skills. You've used those high octane years to learn to write productively and publish. You did this while coming from poverty and presented with a path of fast-food jobs. You are very impressive.

You plan to take marketing once you reach 100k. I hope you can benefit from some of the advice offered on this thread because maybe you can get there a little sooner. Best wishes for your continued success.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

AlecHutson said:


> It isn't only about being lucky. You need to be a great storyteller as well. The better writer and more hard working you are, the less luck you need to be successful. Stratospheric success might rely on a fortuitous confluence of events, but if you can write really compelling fiction and you combine that with a good work ethic, I believe you'll make it in this business so long as you are able to put together a viable product in other areas (as in, the cover and editing).
> 
> It isn't luck when a literary agent accepts your manuscript. If they are good at their jobs (and most of them are) then they understand what kind of fiction sells, and the vast majority are good at judging the quality of submissions. Most books - the overhwelming majority - simply are not up to trad's standards when it comes to craft.
> 
> Nor is it luck when a self published author is able to make a living out of this. Their books satisfy. They are successful in giving the readers of their genre what they want, which not all writers can do.


This, and everything Brian said as well.

Leaving aside the question of whether successful authors can be objective about their success, the problem with believing, "It's all luck," is that it makes you powerless.

You aren't powerless. You control the genre, the hook, the concept, the writing. The grabby beginning and the satisfying ending that has the reader looking for your next book. You control the blurb and the cover and the title and series title (title + series title + cover--that's your first hook right there), and you control the price and the formatting and the editing and all the initial marketing. You control how hard you are willing to work to get the book out there, and then to start the next one, and the next, all of them executed at the very best level of which you are capable.

And you control how you bounce back from disappointment. How you look critically at your mistakes and correct them next time. Being successful at this for the long term involves a million tiny microdecisions. You don't have to get all of them right, but you have to get a lot of them right. Most of all, you have to LISTEN and LEARN. Does it hurt to read your critical reviews? Sure it does. Can you learn from them? Sure you can. If your response is to think, "Idiot. What does she know?" or "She just doesn't get it" every time, you probably aren't learning much.

The most important marketing happens before you publish your book. Write a book and present it in a way that intrigues readers and makes them check it out, and don't put any barriers in the way to their doing so. (Like poor formatting, a lack of editing, a story that isn't "tight" enough, overly florid prose for your genre--whatever it is.) After that? It's on the writing to hook them and keep them coming back. And you control ALL of that, even before you place a single ad or join a single Facebook group, or whatever else you do.

If you do it right, you may get some word of mouth going. A huge, effective marketing spend can get a lot of eyes on a book, but it's up to the BOOK--not just its presentation, but its effectiveness in reaching and delighting your reader--to get them reading it, to keep them reading it, to get them recommending it and posting it themselves.

That kind of "exponential" marketing, the kind you don't do directly, is golden. It's the key to long-term success at this deal. You don't control it, but your actions and decisions and care can absolutely increase the chances that it happens.

If it does happen, you will experience the dubious joys of people telling you that you got "lucky."


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## PenNPaper (Apr 21, 2016)

Luck has nothing to do with my success. It's because of hard work, a lot research into genres and what was selling, years of honing my craft, a great voice, and the ability to tell a story in a way that keeps readers wanting more.


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## Lorri Moulton [Lavender Lass Books] (Jun 15, 2019)

Usedtoposthere said:


> This, and everything Brian said as well.
> 
> Leaving aside the question of whether successful authors can be objective about their success, the problem with believing, "It's all luck," is that it makes you powerless.
> 
> ...


All of this!


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## Doktor von Zwitter (Jul 7, 2019)

Bixso said:


> Aww, it's going to be fine. You need to promote your books better, (something I also need to do), and you should see an increase in sales/readers too.
> 
> Maybe you can do a Goodreads giveaway?


I have a very limited income, so I really can't do a lot of advertising and promotion. And my experience with giveaways is that people just take the free book and run.


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## Llano (May 27, 2012)

To every successful person success is due solely to hard work.

To every unsuccessful person success is due solely to luck.

As always, the truth is somewhere in between.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

People can think I got lucky if they want to. I can't control what anybody thinks.

Meanwhile, I'll be over here doing the exact same things I've been doing for seven and a half years. Working like this could all disappear tomorrow. Figuring out how to write better, evaluating what I didn't do so well last time and why, so I can become the writer I want to be. Reaching out to my readers in as authentic a way as I can possibly manage, and never taking them for granted. Being my own worst critic.

I'm lucky to have been born intelligent and emotionally sensitive, with an excellent memory and high verbal ability (all of that is exactly like most authors), and to a family that valued education, in the Western world where women count. Lucky to be a smart person with mainstream taste, and to have started publishing in the autumn of 2012--though in that case, I seized the moment, recognizing that indie publishing was booming and that if I didn't jump, I could lose my best chance. You could say I'm lucky to be a disciplined worker with my nose perpetually to the grindstone, but that's not really luck. That's a choice. You could also say I'm lucky to have a "voice" that readers enjoy, but that's due to 10 years writing copy, and working really hard to get better at it and to hone that easy-breezy voice.

I'm fortunate that all those things together can help a person succeed as a romance author, and that I had the guts to jump in and try. Lots of people don't. *If you've finished a book, if you've had that book edited and published it--congratulations! Seriously, congratulations. You're way ahead of a whole, whole lot of people who've always thought about writing a book. You've got a shot at this thing.*

Everybody's lucky in some ways and unlucky in others. That's people, and that's life.


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## EmberKent (Nov 24, 2018)

I recently edited a book which talked about luck in one of its chapters.

It said, paraphrased, that luck is a contributor but you often have to work for that luck. Opportunities and miracles are irrelevant if you're not in a position to take advantage of them.

This feels right to me, and it applies to writing, I think. A celebrity will never read your novel and share it with their fans if your book is bad. A particularly fantastic ad campaign will be wasted money and potential if your blurb is 20 words and it's just an author tagline, and if your Look Inside is just your table of contents, an acknowledgement page, and the copyright. Your flash-in-the-pan successful debut will go nowhere if your new fans have no way of reading (BUYING) more of your work. You build the scaffolding for luck to be taken advantage of.

Hard work, _good_ work, makes it possible for luck to find you. Otherwise, what good will luck really do you?


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> People can think I got lucky if they want to. I can't control what anybody thinks.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'll be over here doing the exact same things I've been doing for seven and a half years. Working like this could all disappear tomorrow. Figuring out how to write better, evaluating what I didn't do so well last time and why, so I can become the writer I want to be. Reaching out to my readers in as authentic a way as I can possibly manage, and never taking them for granted. Being my own worst critic.
> 
> ...


Very well said. Look, if you think success in writing comes down purely to luck, you're never going to be successful. Writing books is a skill, a combination of natural talent and hard work (weighted towards the latter). If you think it's all luck, then you think improving your craft is irrelevant to success . . . and you'll stay treading water right where you are.


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## Lisa5 (Oct 23, 2012)

ImaWriter said:


> Oki doke.


 Meh I have a masters degree in English with an A minus average, but I also have two learning disabilities, and I still do [crap] like that accidentally uggggg. It doesn't mean that person can't craft great books. It just means they need to self proof read their first drafts heavily. I'm a very auditory thinker and I will type the wrong homonym even though I know all the rules for the correct homonyms I'll still type the wrong one and then have to go back and correct. Very annoying.


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## Lisa5 (Oct 23, 2012)

scott.marmorstein said:


> Appreciate the pep-talk. I'm a bit confused as to the agenda. For a split-second, I was almost convinced I stumbled on one of those sites that explains how you too can make adequate day-job quitting money if you just give them your email address...


 I suspect the agenda here is just joy about his/her success since there is no link to buy. 



Jeff Hughes said:


> << Anyone can make a living self publishing >>
> 
> I'll take the other side of that bet, every day of the week.


Anyone with some talent, a decent grasp of English, and research skills perhaps? 


Doktor von Zwitter said:


> I have a very limited income, so I really can't do a lot of advertising and promotion. And my experience with giveaways is that people just take the free book and run.


 But there's advertising available now that only takes out of your royalties.


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## LukeSchmidt (Jan 15, 2018)

There's no such thing as luck. Luck is superstition and used as an excuse for those lacking the ability to work hard. No one knows what happens in the background, such as the years of struggle and earning very little. Nothing is black and white. There is always a reason or many reasons for a person's success. 

Chance, on the other hand, is real. There is a higher chance of success if you are writing in a popular genre, improving your writing, putting out good covers and descriptions, advertising and refusing to give up. This might take 20 or 30 books before you are doing it full time, but all of that isn't luck. It's a combination of many things.


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## Doktor von Zwitter (Jul 7, 2019)

Lisa5 said:


> But there's advertising available now that only takes out of your royalties.


For that to work, first there has to be consistent royalties. A random sale out of the blue isn't going to cut that.


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## Lisa5 (Oct 23, 2012)

Drakon said:


> 2,500 authors make $50,000 per yr out of how many?
> 
> A million?


When a lot of those million put up one unmarketable book does it really matter?


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## Lisa5 (Oct 23, 2012)

TwistedTales said:


> Bingo. Erotica is a completely different market that sells in ways other genres don't. It's not an apples to apples comparison with other genres that don't have quite the same, let's say, appeal.
> 
> No judgement because I don't care about it, but many writers aren't interested in writing erotica.


Erotica and romance aren't the same thing. God.


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

The bottom line. It’s about giving the reader something that they need/want. You can have a 1,000 dollar cover that won’t see the first book other then to friends and family. I think the mood of the readers comes into play also. Luck is only going to take you so far. A good story that readers need want will take you all the way.

Let me explain need/want.

The metal cords on your radial tires are showing you need a tire, not want but need. Need carries more weight than want. Want is a luxury we don’t have to have.

Combine the two need/want you have success.

Example. A person when through a terrible divorce and has not dated in five years. They have a need for romance/love. Even if it’s just a short time with a book.

Your taking a vacation to Switzerland and you have never went there before. You have a need for a book on swiss.

Sometimes readers have a need to escape their life’s for a while a good book can do that. Some of the great books of our time have terrible covers but they still sell.

It’s not luck. It’s all about having a great story. Everything else comes in a distant second.  Create a good story, have the book properly edited and let people know the book is out there. So many books are all the same and if you read one it fells like you read them all. Readers need something new, and easy to read. They do not need to disinfect code or given every name in the dictionary. A light, enjoyable read that allows the reader feel like he’s apart of the story. The wool series of books has that magic. One part has a long part on stairs and when you read it. You feel like your on the stairs. You become part of the story. If I had that magic in telling stories i’d be rich. Again, my thoughts, it’s not luck at all.

Write a story they need/want and you will sell books. Write a story they only want and don’t need, not enough.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I will say that luck played a part in me figuring things out when I first got started. How did I get lucky?
1. People found my stuff despite bad branding and editing. In 2010 it wasn't like today. We didn't have as many options on that stuff.
2. I wrote to market before I realized it was a thing.
3. I had time to experiment and tweak without such a brutal 90-day cliff.
Those were the biggies.

What wasn't luck?
1. I've written more than 200 novels. That doesn't count my 30K shorts or omnibuses. That's in 16 series. That's just novels. Of those, I only have two series I consider duds (and for others the sales would be considered good). They simply didn't sell to the standards I set under my two names. Both series were completed, though. I finish everything. Period. My readers trust I will always finish everything. That's not luck and it inspires loyalty.
2. When I fail, I learn. If something doesn't work I figure out why. I don't attribute it to outside forces. No matter what, it's ALWAYS something I did or didn't do. I don't like the victim mentality.
3. Despite the money I've made, I treat this as a job that might fall apart tomorrow. I still do the work every day. I still finish my to-do list every week. At some point next year I will slide over the eight figures line of total earnings. Guess what? I will still do the work. There are no excuses in my world, no missed deadlines. I dream, and dream big, and I work to achieve those dreams.

So, yeah, I got lucky in some respects. It's the hard work that keeps me getting "lucky" though.


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

Yo


Amanda M. Lee said:


> I will say that luck played a part in me figuring things out when I first got started. How did I get lucky?
> 1. People found my stuff despite bad branding and editing. In 2010 it wasn't like today. We didn't have as many options on that stuff.
> 2. I wrote to market before I realized it was a thing.
> 3. I had time to experiment and tweak without such a brutal 90-day cliff.
> ...


u have fans that love you and buy your books. That's mot luck. You are good at story telling. And as far as work. You put out more books than almost anyone here. You readers have a need, your story's for them is like the next cup of coffee they have to have. I see no luck in your success at all. A great story teller and work harder than anyone. Like my message. Need/want consider it as one word and you give readers that. They'd buy your books if you had no covers. It's the content in the books they want.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

My 2020 goals.
I'm not going to finish this novel. I'm okay with it because I learned that I'm not ready for that level yet. I'm going to focus on my strengths. Studying my best selling titles, I can see that my sweet spot is 20,000 words at $2.99. Those books have the best reviews, and they are still getting KU reads even though they were published in 2015. My readers like books that are funny and quirky. They don't like books that have a lot of drama and sadness. 
I'm going to start two new pennames and speed up my production. 
How do I write so fast?
I write in Google docs, and I use the voice recorder on my phone. I'm trying something new this year. I'm going for 1,000 titles in one year. I know you're laughing, but it's not impossible. Open 83 Google docs and label them 1-83. Next, write 1-16 on each document. Give a one sentence outline for each chapter. Each chapter is 1,290 words. You need 645 words for each story every day. Start the process again until you have 1,000 titles.

Why this will work?
Every year, some people finish nanowrimo in one day. Who says you can't do it every day for a year?
Ideas are endless, and novellas are not complicated. Daydream, outline in batches and start writing.
Think of the dollar signs. If all 1,000 titles sell four copies every month, you will be very close to $100,000 a year. You can get that in KU with a few sales and page reads with no marketing. This method requires going all in with KU and lots of grit. I'm ready for this challenge of 1,000 novellas in one year, and I hope a few of you will start your own journey.

I'm giving my TV away. It's mindless entertainment that slows me down.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Cassie B said:


> My 2020 goals.
> I'm not going to finish this novel. I'm okay with it because I learned that I'm not ready for that level yet. I'm going to focus on my strengths. Studying my best selling titles, I can see that my sweet spot is 20,000 words at $2.99. Those books have the best reviews, and they are still getting KU reads even though they were published in 2015. My readers like books that are funny and quirky. They don't like books that have a lot of drama and sadness.
> I'm going to start two new pennames and speed up my production.
> How do I write so fast?
> ...


@Cassie, i don't really understand the point of your posts. You labeled this thread 'Anyone can make a living self publishing' but at least one person in here has said they are not making any money. 
I see authors everyday saying they cannot make enough to buy a starbucks coffee or asking for advice on how to sell more books.

It seems like you are writing a self motivating post and wanting to share your progress, like the data porn posts on Reddit erotica authors.

I would like to know if you are writing short romance or short erotica packaged up to look like romance?

This new task you are taking on seems to be very ambitious. Also a lot of work.

I believe the authors making a good consistent living from writing and self publishing are the ones writing engaging hooky (as Rosalind James says) books. They are packaging them in a professional way, they find their tribe of readers, promote their books their own way and give their readers what they want over and over again.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

BellaJames said:


> @Cassie, i don't really understand the point of your posts. You labeled this thread 'Anyone can make a living self publishing' but at least one person in here has said they are not making any money.
> I see authors everyday saying they cannot make enough to buy a starbucks coffee or asking for advice on how to sell more books.
> 
> It seems like you are writing a self motivating post and wanting to share your progress, like the data porn posts on Reddit erotica authors.
> ...


Short romance. Anyone can make a living self publishing. It takes hard work. No you can't make a living with a few books a year and no marketing. You need hundreds of books if you can't succeed the traditional way. That is the point of my posts. It's very possible. I have short romance from 2015 that still gets KU reads.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

BellaJames said:


> @Cassie, i don't really understand the point of your posts. You labeled this thread 'Anyone can make a living self publishing' but at least one person in here has said they are not making any money.
> I see authors everyday saying they cannot make enough to buy a starbucks coffee or asking for advice on how to sell more books.
> 
> It seems like you are writing a self motivating post and wanting to share your progress, like the data porn posts on Reddit erotica authors.
> ...


And it is supposed to be motivating and answering questions. My inbox is full of comments, and people want to know how I do this. I'm answering questions. If you can succeed with a few books a year and great marketing, good for you. That strategy doesn't work for me. I'm sharing my knowledge.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Cassie B said:


> Short romance. Anyone can make a living self publishing. It takes hard work. No you can't make a living with a few books a year and no marketing. You need hundreds of books if you can't succeed the traditional way. That is the point of my posts. It's very possible. I have short romance from 2015 that still gets KU reads.


You do not need hundreds of books. You can absolutely succeed with a few books a year. There are many paths to success.

I admire your work ethic and wish you the best. I could not do it your way for many reasons (it is extremely difficult for me to come up with book ideas, for one), but more power to you for pursuing your dreams in a way that works for you.


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> You do not need hundreds of books. You can absolutely succeed with a few books a year. There are many paths to success.
> 
> I admire your work ethic and wish you the best. I could not do it your way for many reasons (it is extremely difficult for me to come up with book ideas, for one), but more power to you for pursuing your dreams in a way that works for you.


Thank you for your compliment. I know every author doesn't need hundreds of books. This approach is the road less traveled. There are plenty of successful authors who succeed the traditional way. My posts are for letting struggling authors know that it's possible without novels and marketing.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Cassie B said:


> Thank you for your compliment. I know every author doesn't need hundreds of books. This approach is the road less traveled. There are plenty of successful authors who succeed the traditional way. My posts are for letting struggling authors know that it's possible without novels and marketing.


Gotcha. Best wishes on your journey.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Cassie B said:


> Short romance. Anyone can make a living self publishing. It takes hard work. No you can't make a living with a few books a year and no marketing. Y*ou need hundreds of books if you can't succeed the traditional way.* That is the point of my posts. It's very possible. I have short romance from 2015 that still gets KU reads.


Authors like Jami Albright show that there are different methods that work for different people. She writes 1 book a year. She wrote a couple novels to start with because she was advised to do that by Julia Kent.

She appeared at the 20Booksto50k event recently. She also appeared on the six figure author podcast.

You are using one method. It is the method that was used by a few erotica authors to pump out as many short books as possible. One author on reddit was publishing one book every other day. If it is working for you, good.

I still do not believe everyone can make a living self publishing. Some people are publishing and making no money. It's not about hard work. It's about writing books people want to read, promoting them, finding readers and building a fanbase.

Just like not everyone can make it as a singer or actor. Hollywood is full of out of work actors who work in restaurants.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Dpock said:


> In a way, you're demeaning the whole profession. Relatively few people have the skills to write well and even fewer to craft stories. That's why so many ultimately fail.


All this


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## Cassie B (Dec 10, 2017)

BellaJames said:


> Authors like Jami Albright show that there are different methods that work for different people. She writes 1 book a year. She wrote a couple novels to start with because she was advised to do that by Julia Kent.
> 
> She appeared at the 20Booksto50k event recently. She also appeared on the six figure author podcast.
> 
> ...


I think you're not understanding my posts. I know everyone doesn't need to self publish hundreds of books.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I don't think writing more is going to get you where you want to go. I think writing and packaging better--not in quality necessarily but in marketability--is they key.

It will be much less work for you to cut your writing by a third and replace that time with marketing and packaging.

Starting a new pen is the last thing I would do, unless it was a new long term pen that writes longer books with A+ packaging.

Do you have any commerical series now? If so, I guarantee I can increase their income with a change in packaging + a little promotion. (Assuming they really are short romance, not erotica). Seriously, send me a link to your books (or comparable books) and I'll go over what I'd change here. I'm not the greatest packager/marketer of all time but I've made enough big changes to know what works, what doesn't, when to keep trying with a series and when to let go.

You can make way more money by upgrading your covers, titles, and blurbs and doing some simple low cost marketing. That is how you'll get to 100k/year. With marketing.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Cassie B said:


> Short romance. Anyone can make a living self publishing. It takes hard work. No you can't make a living with a few books a year and no marketing.* You need hundreds of books if you can't succeed the traditional way.* That is the point of my posts. It's very possible. I have short romance from 2015 that still gets KU reads.


You said here that you need hundreds of books if you can't do it the traditional method.

I think your method would be quite hard for many authors. I see many authors on reddit saying they quit writing a short book a day or even a week because it was too much work and Amazon rewards novel writers.

I agree with Crystal above (just saw her post).

Anyway good luck to you.


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## NanSweet (Apr 14, 2015)

Do you have a few that make the lion's share of the sales or is it just everything at a consistent few copies a month?  I ask because I'm very consistent in my sales, but they're not huge.  Still, I love writing middle grade fantasy, so maybe I should just thousand-duple down on them


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## Llano (May 27, 2012)

Anyone can make a living making Youtube videos.

There are 12-year-olds pulling down over $5K per month doing a lot less work than writing and publishing hundreds of short stories.


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## Doktor von Zwitter (Jul 7, 2019)

Cassie B said:


> Short romance. Anyone can make a living self publishing. It takes hard work. No you can't make a living with a few books a year and no marketing. You need hundreds of books if you can't succeed the traditional way. That is the point of my posts. It's very possible. I have short romance from 2015 that still gets KU reads.


I guess I should just give up then. Neither romance or short stories are my thing.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Cassie B said:


> My 2020 goals.
> ...I can see that my sweet spot is 20,000 words ...I'm going for 1,000 titles in one year.


And this is where I decide that we've all been played for ever responding to this thread. 20,000 words x 1,000 titles is 20 million words for the year or almost 55,000 words per day. I can believe that there are fast writers out there. I absolutely believe that some writers can consistently write a novel a month. Some may even be able to write two novels a month. But 55,000 words a day for an entire year? No.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

CassieL said:


> But 55,000 words a day for an entire year? No.


She never said where she's from. On Venus, one day is the equivalent of 241 Earth days.


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Gavroche said:


> Anyone can make a living making Youtube videos.
> 
> There are 12-year-olds pulling down over $5K per month doing a lot less work than writing and publishing hundreds of short stories.


The highest paid YouTuber is around 8 years old. Ryan Kaji made $26 million in 2019. He reviews toys.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

CassieL said:


> And this is where I decide that we've all been played for ever responding to this thread. 20,000 words x 1,000 titles is 20 million words for the year or almost 55,000 words per day. I can believe that there are fast writers out there. I absolutely believe that some writers can consistently write a novel a month. Some may even be able to write two novels a month. But 55,000 words a day for an entire year? No.


If she wrote that much on Textbroker, she could make about $1k/day as a level 4 assuming team and direct orders.


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## Kim M (Jan 30, 2020)

Anyone can make a living self publishing.

Sorry, but I just don't believe that.
I also don't believe that you must have a lot of luck, a lot of talent, be a natural story teller, etc. etc.
Erle Stanley Gardner (Perry Mason) have none of those things in his pockets at the beginning.
Story teller? Heck, the country lawyer didn't even know that a story needed plot. Or even what a plot was.
But he had grit and determination. What he didn't know, he would learn. just like a novice carpenter learns how to drive a nail.
He went on to become the top selling author in the world.
F. Scott Fitzgerald had 122 rejection letters staring him in the face as he wrote his best selling This Side of Paradise.
He had grit and determination.
John Creasey wrote over 600 novels - mysteries, romances, westerns - using 28 pen names. But he piled up 743 rejection slips.
He didn't quite after rejection #122. He just keep going. And he never used a literary agent.
And then we get a quote like this one above:

*I see many authors on reddit saying they quit writing a short book a day or even a week because it was too much work and Amazon rewards novel writers. 
*

No, NOT anyone can make a living self publishing.

But if you have grit and determination, you can learn how to be a story teller.


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## nail file (Sep 12, 2018)

Wow. This thread devolved quickly. It started out with kudos, then had reasonable and helpful discussion about working hard and working smart and the viability of longer works, and now we are at the point we're calling bullshit.


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## Drakon (Dec 6, 2014)

This is the best thread on Kindle right now. 

With all due respect, I think people need to look at the BIG PICTURE. It's HARDER to make it in publishing now. There's more competition. Much more. People all over the world are jumping into self publishing and they aren't always moral about it. 

Ever heard of CHINESE CLICK FARMS? And there are all kinds of variations of those. Trad publishers are famous for buying their own books to make the best seller lists - just write it off as advertising costs. 

I looked at a book today then scrolled down - there were 271 pages of Sponsored Ads underneath it. 271 pages. How many people are gonna look past PAGE 1? 

When I started e-publishing in 2016 AMS ADS were the new thing. Only a few authors were doing it. Now it's up to 271 pages - everyone trying to feed off 1 book. And it's not on a Top 100 List.

Now you almost have to make a Top 100 List to get visibility. (unless you have a built-in fan base). And a lot of the Top 100 List spots are now dominated by Traditional Publishers. Yeah I know the `Trad Gatekeepers' had some spats with Amazon several years ago but that's all in the past now. 

Imagine what a GOLD MINE is Epub is for Trad Publishers!!! No actual printing costs. No storage costs. No shipping costs. Relatively small advertising. All they have to do is SELL AIR.

And the Trad pubbers have everything in place - lists of Reviewers, ARC Readers, etc. 

An article on Publishing Trends says Trad Pubs are gonna start flooding Kindle Unlimited with their Back Lists. And why wouldn't they?

I could say a lot more but this is a fraction of what Indies are up against. It's a multi $Billion Dollar pie and the competition is ever more intense. 

I could never begin to replicate the volume Cassie B produces. But I appreciate that she is trying to open the proverbial DOOR for us in her own way. She may not write 1,000 books in a year. Doesn't matter, she's found a WAY to survive as a writer. Cassie B is ahead of the game in my book.

I think we need to open our minds to more NEW GROUP writing and marketing techniques. I have some ideas about this. If people want to Message me I will be happy to Exchange Ideas with you.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Drakon said:


> I could say a lot more but this is a fraction of what Indies are up against.


I don't feel I'm "up against" anything. I write novels, I bid for advertising in an open market, my books often sit on Top 100 lists next to well-known authors, indie and traditional, and they do okay. I don't see anything wrong with this picture.


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## Drakon (Dec 6, 2014)

Says the author whose books are not listed on her posts.  

I'm not here to argue with people. I'm here to learn how to survive and thrive as a writer.


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## boba1823 (Aug 13, 2017)

*cough* I don't list my books either.. seems a bit risky for my tastes. Some people don't mind the risk or simply don't care, some do. To me, anonymity/pseudonymity seems pretty irrelevant as long as someone isn't trying to sell me something. Anyway -

I don't know if it's harder today than it was in the past, as I haven't been at it for very long. I certainly wouldn't say it is necessary easy, or that _literally_ anyone can make $_x_ doing it (I've been on the Twitter; many people struggle to write a single coherent sentences). At the same time.. it doesn't seem to me that the bar is set exceptionally high, relative to achieving some semi-decent/middling level of sales.

*Visibility?* Sheesh, that really has to be the _easiest_ part of the publishing game. Slap up a quick Facebook ad and you can have 100 clicks for $25-50, maybe more (or less) depending on many factors. Assuming that it is reasonably clear that you are advertising a book, most of these clicks presumably represent people who have at least some minimal interest in potentially buying/reading your book. If you want, you can up that 10x, 100x, more.

Visibility doesn't guarantee profitability, for sure. There's a lot involved in putting out a commercially viable book. Some of it is businessy type stuff. Other is writerly craft type stuff. If one is halfway-mediocre at both aspects... that person is considerably ahead of most other indie writers.

I'm well aware, of course, that some people genuinely can't spend much if anything on advertising. And yes, that is a _significant_ disadvantage, perhaps especially for someone who is relatively new to publishing. Some writers, such as the OP (and others!) have done exceptionally well with very little if any marketing spend. Still, generally I think that would be a very limiting approach. To be frank, for most people who have published one or more books without seeing any measurable results, in place of the common 'Just get to writing the next book!' advice, I would often recommend putting off the next book, instead getting a part-time job, and using the extra money to wade into paid advertising. Assuming that it's not just a lost cause because of something like book quality, anyway.

To me, it seems like a poor use of time to keep writing books without any clear indication that they are going to have some commercial potential. (Unless that is one's passion or whatnot - that's just not me. I expect sales.) Can't really tell if a book has potential until it has hit a certain level of visibility, enough to provide some solid data on whether whatever minimum ratio of people who see the book will buy the book. And visibility - again, that's easy, pay some $$s for eyes.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

boba1823 said:


> *cough* I don't list my books either.. seems a bit risky for my tastes.


It is if you remember the whole one-starring fiasco that seemed to end with at least two banned accounts.


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## boba1823 (Aug 13, 2017)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> It is if you remember the whole one-starring fiasco that seemed to end with at least two banned accounts.


I was just thinking of the shame of being outed as an indie  But that too.

Sad situation, but that's how things are nowadays. Means I have to spend hours every night trawling through Amazon, trying to no avail to find a hot urban fantasy featuring a vampire hamster. (To buy it, not to give it the smack down)


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## Vickie Vaughan (Aug 14, 2019)

CassieL said:


> And this is where I decide that we've all been played for ever responding to this thread. 20,000 words x 1,000 titles is 20 million words for the year or almost 55,000 words per day. I can believe that there are fast writers out there. I absolutely believe that some writers can consistently write a novel a month. Some may even be able to write two novels a month. But 55,000 words a day for an entire year? No.


No way anyone can do that volume. Chris Fox is a very high volume writer and he recently published a video where he stated that even with many other things on the go he was still churning out 12k words a day, which is still insane to me.

Now, 100 titles a year? Completely doable at 20k words per title. In less than a year I've published over 50 writing part time, although they are all shorter than 20k.


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## Josette (Jan 19, 2020)

Cassie B said:


> There is no secret formula. Write entertaining books that people want to read. I've published 1,000 romance novellas under various pennames. Some are wide and some are in KU. I make at least $4,000 every month with no marketing. I don't have dreams of getting rich, but I'm paying bills. It took a few years to get to this point. You can accomplish anything with hard work.


That's so true. And I think novellas sell better than full length novels (because who has time, these days, to sit down and read a thousand plus page novel?) I think I'll wait for the movie! 

But seriously, with so much social media/Internet, I think a lot of people are just used to reading something short and easy. (That's why my book is small - I got straight to the point, rather than "filling" it with case histories, the way so many self-help books are written.)

And like you said, the key is to write something interesting - something people will want to read. Most of the romance novels I've read (and remembered) were novellas. If the story is good (and it _is_ turned into a movie), you can always add more to it to make it a full length movie!


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Josette said:


> the key is to write something interesting - something people will want to read.


And if they don't, and if there's no real talent in play, hard work will never remedy the situation. Wouldn't it be fairer to say most who try to _make a living_ self-publishing fail?

But making a living isn't the only bar gauging success. There are plenty of self-publishers thrilled to make $5k yearly. Even less. $10k is no small achievement. $15k is about full-time minimum wage, which many mid-listers in traditional publishing fail to achieve.

Quite a few think self-publishing is a numbers game, and that may be true for content mills, but for most solo authors I think it would be detrimental to their craft. Good writing and storytelling have nothing to do with typing speed. No serious writer would join a Facebook group titled 1000Books2$48k.

No doubt one's already been created.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

I think I was misunderstood when I said that "luck" is involved, if you want to be a full time writer, acclaimed writer, or whatever way you want to spin it. 

I'm saying that one author can publish a haphazard book, with a plot that makes no sense, and it has a movie deal and all this press. 

Yet another author, who has been writing for several decades, has almost a hundred books written, yet still struggles to make writing full time. 

That's what I mean by "luck".

There are musicians and singers on the radio right now, that are untalented, yet you have so many garage band musicians, subway musicians, who create lovely music, yet probably will never get signed by a record label. So it's sad.

I used Youtube as an example. There could be a youtube channel that's full of drivel and inane content. (Maybe it's a couples or family channel) Yet they have millions of subscribers. Yet youtube channels with good content, nobody even knows about. 

That's the point I was trying to make by saying "luck", because it is.

Who's controlling this "luck"? I have no idea, and that's the scary part. 

What I do agree with, is that you should keep on keeping on, and that's the part where I'm being misunderstood. Please do understand that there is "luck" involved, but that shouldn't stop you from writing.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

I think what most aspiring authors want to know is: What will it take to make a success of writing? How can they turn their passion into a career? What's the formula? And to themselves they wonder if they have what it takes? 
I can't answer whether a writer has it within themselves. I simply don't have the insight. The best I can do is tell the difference between professional and amateur writing - not a particularly unique or useful skill. 
I can, however, tell those who want to know, what you need. It boils down to three qualities: A strong work ethic, skill, and talent. Regardless your path, be it traditional or indie, these are essential.  With indie, you need a broader skill set than with traditional. And you certainly need a stronger work ethic. I think that's why it has always baffled me when I see people look at indie as a easier road to the top. If anything, it's harder. Quicker, sure. But not easier. 
The traditional route is essentially the same though. You need all three components. One or two is not enough. Not if you want to be a novelist who makes a living through their writing. 
Skills can be learned. A work ethic...not so sure. Talent is something you're born with. In the end it's for each individual to discover if they have it. It's for damn sure not my call to make. 
If you do find yourself among the counted few with the "right stuff" that's all the luck you can ever hope for. But if you learn the hard truth most people have to face eventually that you don't, it's okay. You can still derive joy from telling stories. Which, I will point out, is the main reason any of us consider how far we can take this in the first place.


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## Charlee5 (Feb 27, 2020)

Hi Cassie B!  This is my first time on a writer's forum.  I have just written a children's activity book and have submitted my manuscript and other material/information (query letter, cover letter, bio,...) they have requested, to MANY publishers.  No luck.  So, I have decided to self publish my book.  Being that it is an activity book, I realize there is a little more involved.  I was surfing the web to find out ways and advice on self publishing my own book and came across this forum.  My first question is, how expensive is it to publish your own book?  

I am a recent physical therapy assistant graduate and feel my book would benefit children with disabilities.  I feel my book would be beneficial in elementary schools, pediatric occupational therapy facilities, and learning centers.  What advice would you have for me?  I appreciate it Cassie!  Thank you for your time!


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## c&#039;est la vie (Dec 19, 2019)

Charlee5 said:


> Hi Cassie B! This is my first time on a writer's forum. I have just written a children's activity book and have submitted my manuscript and other material/information (query letter, cover letter, bio,...) they have requested, to MANY publishers. No luck. So, I have decided to self publish my book. Being that it is an activity book, I realize there is a little more involved. I was surfing the web to find out ways and advice on self publishing my own book and came across this forum. My first question is, how expensive is it to publish your own book?
> 
> I am a recent physical therapy assistant graduate and feel my book would benefit children with disabilities. I feel my book would be beneficial in elementary schools, pediatric occupational therapy facilities, and learning centers. What advice would you have for me? I appreciate it Cassie! Thank you for your time!


I would create your own thread. There might be people on kboards who can answer your questions, but they're less likely to read your post if it's lost in this thread.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

This video isn't an exact fit for this thread, but close enough... Generally, when we say "talent" in any of the arts, we mean "creative talent." I don't think it's essential in the more formulaic genres (though it certainly helps and probably defines why some make it and others don't). If you're aiming elsewhere, having a great amount of creative talent is probably essential. The problem is great creative talent is rare and can be a curse.

The video is from Jordan Peterson's animated community.*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol2Cl3ePGxM

*I realize some find him controversial, but not in this area.


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## Charlee5 (Feb 27, 2020)

valsavage said:


> I would create your own thread. There might be people on kboards who can answer your questions, but they're less likely to read your post if it's lost in this thread.


Thank you Valsavage! I appreciate it!!


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## Charlee5 (Feb 27, 2020)

Dpock said:


> This video isn't an exact fit for this thread, but close enough... Generally, when we say "talent" in any of the arts, we mean "creative talent." I don't think it's essential in the more formulaic genres (though it certainly helps and probably defines why some make it and others don't). If you're aiming elsewhere, having a great amount of creative talent is probably essential. The problem is great creative talent is rare and can be a curse.
> 
> The video is from Jordan Peterson's animated community.*
> 
> ...


Interesting.


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## solo (Dec 19, 2017)

scott.marmorstein said:


> Appreciate the pep-talk. I'm a bit confused as to the agenda. For a split-second, I was almost convinced I stumbled on one of those sites that explains how you too can make adequate day-job quitting money if you just give them your email address...


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Drakon said:


> Above is a slash and burn survey of only 1,000 writers. That these writers responded could mean they are not representative of the vast majority. Percentage of income appears way over estimated.
> 
> The real question is -
> 
> How many published authors are competing for the E-pub market?


You want a snapshot of that number? Take a look at your author rank, and monitor it over time. Depending on how well (or not well) you do from week to week, you'll see how many authors you are competing with, in just your own category. Mine is in the thousands. And it seems to climb every year.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Josette said:


> That's so true. And I think novellas sell better than full length novels (because who has time, these days, to sit down and read a thousand plus page novel?) I think I'll wait for the movie!


I should think many people have time to sit and read a long novel. After all, being retired does not equate to being dead or to having your brain cells removed. I don't read during the day, as I'm busy writing, but I always read in bed at night and always have, as long as I can remember. I pity anyone who prefers a movie to a well written and engaging book.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Josette said:


> That's so true. And I think novellas sell better than full length novels (because who has time, these days, to sit down and read a thousand plus page novel?) I think I'll wait for the movie!


As someone who has more than 200 novels and 35 novellas, I can unequivocally say that's not true. Readers still want novels. The only ones pushing the novella narrative are authors who don't want to do the work. There are a handful of romance genres that can sustain novellas but the bulk of the genres want full novels.


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## NatTHill (Jan 7, 2018)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> There are some indications (Amazon's press releases, for one) that the numbers have roughly doubled in the four years since Author Earnings put out that report. Which would mean about 10k writers making $25k+. Or something in that ballpark.
> 
> Can anyone be a full-time indie writer? Well, sure. Sort of. If they're willing to put in crazy long hours, write a half-million or more words a year in a hot genre, have the money to package them well and market them properly, absolutely. Almost anyone doing all those things can become a full-time indie author, given enough time, practice, and effort.
> 
> ...


  This analogy is awesome and definitely agreeable!


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## NatTHill (Jan 7, 2018)

Cassie B said:


> Thank you for your compliment. I know every author doesn't need hundreds of books. This approach is the road less traveled. There are plenty of successful authors who succeed the traditional way. My posts are for letting struggling authors know that it's possible without novels and marketing.


Different authors have different strategies, approaches, and perspectives when it comes to what is financially sustainable for them. This is a given. At the end of the day, we all have different goals. Just because 4K isn't enough to allow (Jane) to live comfortably doesn't mean (Susie) can't thrive with it.

Now, if I had 1K books under my belt, I myself would expect to easily bring in five figures a month. I mean 1,000 books is A LOT! (Congratulations!!) Personally, I would expect no less than 3K monthly with 50 titles. However, writing and promoting (for me) go hand and hand, so I go all in with promoting. Is promoting vital? Again, for (me) it is. But again, it's whatever works for each individual author.

Cassie, I admire your ambition and your desire. You're an optimist in what can be thought of as one the most arduous (careers) a person could choose. I pray you the best of success on all of your endeavors and thank you for your positivity.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Josette said:


> That's so true. *And I think novellas sell better than full length novels (because who has time, these days, to sit down and read a thousand plus page novel?*) I think I'll wait for the movie!
> 
> But seriously, with so much social media/Internet, I think a lot of people are just used to reading something short and easy. (That's why my book is small - I got straight to the point, rather than "filling" it with case histories, the way so many self-help books are written.)
> 
> And like you said, the key is to write something interesting - something people will want to read. Most of the romance novels I've read (and remembered) were novellas. If the story is good (and it _is_ turned into a movie), you can always add more to it to make it a full length movie!


This is not true. Go out and talk to a bunch of readers and most will tell you they prefer a novel, a series actually. I like standalone book series.

The novellas that are selling in short romance are usually erotica disguised as romance or they are right on the edge erotic romance. Reason why, a lot of erotica authors have started writing short reads romance and some think romance is just steamy scenes with a HEA tacked on the end. I see the same question asked every week on reddit, 'how is erotica and romance different'.

I look at the short reads romance bestsellers chart (90 minutes and 2 hour reads) and I cringe everyday. The short reads romance chart might as well be the erotica chart.

I used to gobble up romance novellas, download them from Amazon and Smashwords, read them and run back for more.

I have moved on to reading shorter novels now. I read mainly romance and women's fiction with a heavy romantic plot.

I would say the authors making it in short reads romance are the ones writing erotica and disguising it as a romance (daddy stories, threesomes and insta love ) or very steamy romance.

*I wish Amazon would clean up the short reads romance chart now. *


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## Kathy Dee (Aug 27, 2016)

Well done Cassie!

I have about 30 or so books, under 5 different pen names. Some novels, some short stories, some business & other non-fiction books. I decided way back not to fret about advertising. Have tried a number of channels with variable and uninspiring levels of success - never had (or have even applied for) a BookBub.

Like yours, my books trickle along, selling a few here and a few there and like you, I consider any books that sell continuously, no matter how low the sales volume or frequency, to be a success. I am quite happy to be building my income gradually by focussing on the writing.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

The length of a story is whatever it takes to tell it. Okay, now that I've said the thing I'm supposed to say, here's the truth. There are accurate guidelines available pertaining to genre and word count. Readers of different genres will have different expectations. Romance tends to be shorter. So does mystery. Science Fiction and fantasy, longer. 
It's fine to wander outside the parameters. But you should take into account who will be reading the books. If I produced a 30,000 word epic fantasy, or a 200,000 word romance, it had better be a damn good one. I'll be subverting expectations and people are creatures of habit. They like their genres for multiple reasons. One of which is how long it takes to get through a book. 
Basically, anything you do beyond what is considered typical is a risk. Often it's a risk worth taking. But you should take it with eyes open.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

The big genres aren't monolithic. I write v long for romance. (Up to 150K.) Many other good-selling romance writers do as well. (You can tell by checking out the length of their audiobooks.) Most romance however is more like 75-80K. Erotic romance as noted above can be quite short. Really, novellas. Depends what the reader is reading for.   

PD James's books were quite long for mystery. More complex stories with subplots. Cozy mystery however tends to be quite short. Different kind of read. It can be helpful to think about the audience you're writing for, and what they like--even beyond your genre. 

The good news is that you can range pretty widely within your genre in terms of length, subject matter, tone, etc., as long as you are providing (and providing well) the fundamentals of what your reader is reading for. Which, again, may not be the same for all readers of your genre. In romance, the one & only requirement is a focus on the relationship w/ a happy ending. Some readers want a whipsawing roller-coaster ride of angst and drama. Other readers want a more feel-good experience, a light read. Similar in other genres. Think of crime fiction & the wide variety of experiences a reader might want. Just align your writing with an ideal reader, and target them with cover, blurb, title, tone. (You can do this on purpose or more subconsciously.) Lots of things work. That's the beauty of indie publishing.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I don't think anyone can question OP's work ethic. Even if her titles are erotica shorts, she's put out over five million words. That's a lot of words! With almost 30 books of about 80k words each I've only put out 2.4 million words (mine are a smidge longer on average but for the sake of round numbers).

I think, even with erotica shorts, OP could double her money by writing less and marketing more.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

If you write adequately well, and have a readership, and they will buy more of your product than you presently put out, yeah, the more you write the more you'll make. 

Everyone has to find that sweet spot between production and burn-out, though.


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