# Amazon's reply to complaints about the scammers



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

David Gaughran has just sent out this tweet:

_I finally heard back from Amazon. It has no interest in discussing the KU scammer matter further. Do what you want with that information._  

Nothing about - 'we are worried and working on it'. I wonder how they replied to readers who complained about the scammers?


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## Jane Killick (Aug 29, 2014)

Hopefully this means that they are working on something and don't want to give scammers the heads up. Also that they feared commenting would bering more attention to a matter which is damaging their reputation and they would prefer not to court publicity.

Of course, it could mean something else entirely...


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

The complaints are going to have to come from readers - not authors. 

I hate to be so flippant about it  - but Amazon doesn't really care about us as vendors. We exist to supply a product that gets customers into their system.  If our interests align then great - but if they don't then so be it.  

The readers are going to have to complain and complain big for this to come to a head.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Actually, A LOT of the scam books have been taken down. They're also cracking down on legitimate books though, too. One of my box sets was taken down a week or so ago because the "Number of authors mentioned on the covers does not match the number of authors in the book."

Except ... it did. It took about 24 hours and 3 hours of email/phone calls to get it fixed.

It was this box set here:

http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Mortals-Paranormal-Featuring-Werewolves-ebook/dp/B00VCM31QK/

Which has been up for a while.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Urban Mogul said:


> I hate to be so flippant about it - but Amazon doesn't really care about us as vendors. We exist to supply a product that gets customers into their system. If our interests align then great - but if they don't then so be it.


That has always been my expectation. Like all public companies, Amazon's mission is to increase shareholder value. It has other aims, of course, but all are secondary to its mission.

There is no shortage of vendors. If one leaves, ten will take his place. And the one who left is unlikely to actually leave, pulling his books completely from Amazon. It's like the good-looking guy who has a throng of women vying for his attention. If one women gets fed up by the lack of personal attention, the guy isn't going to care if she leaves.

That's how Amazon probably sees indie authors.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm just reading that as a classic "No Comment" comment. I doubt they want to advertise their moves.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> Actually, A LOT of the scam books have been taken down.


Do we have confirmation of who took them down, though? I thought the scammers were taking them down themselves in order to fly under Amazon's radar.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Amazon's ebook advantage over its competition is findability.  But if scammers start taking over various top 100 lists and making it harder for readers to find books they want, the advantage will start shifting to Amazon's competitors.  Amazon is showing sign of laziness and complacency.  

Secondly, no sane business wants scammers all over its website.  This creates the perception that Amazon is trying to rip off consumers any way it can.  Let's say a reader was suckered into buying a scam ebook and is furious at Amazon for having the nerve to host the thing.  Then that customer goes to look at an item of clothing on Amazon and wants to buy it, but then is stopped by a horrible thought.  What if it's just poor quality work produced by some shyster company using Amazon as a front?  The customer may choose to just visit a local clothing store instead.  The customer now has a legitimate reason to doubt Amazon's honesty about EVERY product it hosts.  Other companies are beginning to do what Amazon does.  Every scam can drive a potential customer to one of them.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I know people don't want to hear it because that would cut down on their complaining time, but Amazon is obviously working on it. Some of us started watching the problem in late 2015. It became an epidemic in January before Amazon started reacting. It's already ten times better than it was (which won't make some people happy because they're just now learning about it and want it fixed immediately). The truth is that a lot of people are coming late to the party on this one. There are still obvious issues, but just as obviously Amazon is going after people. The scammers are screeching in their private groups -- which a few people have infiltrated and take screen captures of -- and they're scrambling. They always come up with something new and Amazon is due to make another adjustment over the next few months. What will that adjustment be? I have no idea but I have a feeling it will involve a lowered cap and a banning of bundles and omnibuses. We shall see, though. The first "fix" was only a stopgap.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

It's almost July; their fix will come out then, which is historically the date they change KU.

I really don't think Amazon is ignoring this problem, just like they weren't ignoring the KU 1.0 problem. Give 'em time.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

SevenDays said:


> I'm just reading that as a classic "No Comment" comment. I doubt they want to advertise their moves.


Nor the fact that they designed such a vulnerable system. I'm not surprised they don't want to talk about it -- doing so would be a PR lose for them.


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## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm waiting and watching. I'll give the Zon more time and hope for the best for now.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

I count 8 days so far this month where chunks of eBooks have been removed from the Kindle Store and KU.  More than 40,000 eBooks have either been withdrawn by the publishers or yanked by Amazon.  The former is possible, but the latter is more probable.

I think Amazon is cleaning up again, even if they aren't willing to speak publicly on the matter.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Salvador Mercer said:


> I'm waiting and watching. I'll give the Zon more time and hope for the best for now.


This. Patience is a really, really difficult virtue--at least for me.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

What are folks saying on the scammer forums? I don't visit them, but I know a few of us here do. What's the mood?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> What are folks saying on the scammer forums? I don't visit them, but I know a few of us here do. What's the mood?


They think we're all a bunch of whiners out to get them. They don't blame themselves, just us.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> They think we're all a bunch of whiners out to get them. They don't blame themselves, just us.


So, they're feeling... persecuted? Good to hear.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Urban Mogul said:


> The complaints are going to have to come from readers - not authors.
> 
> I hate to be so flippant about it - but Amazon doesn't really care about us as vendors. We exist to supply a product that gets customers into their system. If our interests align then great - but if they don't then so be it.
> 
> The readers are going to have to complain and complain big for this to come to a head.


Yep, go ask a Wal-Mart small vendor how well they're treated. I worked for a company that handled the electronic feeds between small vendors that didn't have the tech know-how or money to set up their own system and the big retailers and they were all treated like crap. The big retailers could care less about small companies even if they supplied popular items because in the scheme of things it was peanuts to a Wal-Mart or Target's bottom line.

Unless you were like a Procter and Gamble type behemoth you were on the big retailer's playground rules and it was their rules or the highway.

There is little we can do aside from leaving KU. So the decision is not what Amazon is going to do to help us and clean up KU, but whether or not it makes sense for your business to stay in KU or not.

Now if readers (KU subscribers) start leaving KU in droves that would get Amazon's attention more than indie authors/small vendors complaints.


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## Carol Davis (Dec 9, 2013)

Gator said:


> I count 8 days so far this month where chunks of eBooks have been removed from the Kindle Store and KU. More than 40,000 eBooks have either been withdrawn by the publishers or yanked by Amazon. The former is possible, but the latter is more probable.


That would explain why my books with rankings down in the (*sigh*) million-ish area suddenly got a bump of several thousand places.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> So, they're feeling... persecuted? Good to hear.


Collectively we have the power to move this into the spotlight and force Amazon to do more. Who'd have thought it?


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

If Amazon doesn't want to talk about it, that's fine by me as long as the company is doing something about it. It does seem that perhaps our "whining" about the matter may have helped.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

I totally think Amazon is working on the problem and prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't comment either. They're dealing with crooks so maybe the idea is to be a step ahead of them.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> Actually, A LOT of the scam books have been taken down. They're also cracking down on legitimate books though, too. One of my box sets was taken down a week or so ago because the "Number of authors mentioned on the covers does not match the number of authors in the book."
> 
> Except ... it did. It took about 24 hours and 3 hours of email/phone calls to get it fixed.
> 
> ...


How COULD Amazon employees mistake your legit book for a scam one? I mean if this is Amazon's "fix" we have a bigger problem.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Stepping in to say we're going to be watching this thread very closely...

Betsy
KB Mod


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Well, it does follow the pattern.


The system is new. Yay for the shiny.
There's something wrong with the system. But only for a few. Most everyone else don't see it.
The system breaks.
The system is being scammed.
Cue uproar and complaints.
Amazon says 'we're listening because we want first class customer service'
The system is scammed worse than before.
Amazon 'fixes' something, which ends up screwing the innocent and the guilty skip away from getting the backsplash.
Cue more uproar and complaints.
Amazon says 'whatevs, not messing with you anymore'.
The system starts to see a shift from the scamming, just a tiny one.
Rats start to leave a sinking ship.
Amazon says 'surprise, we were listening!' and introduces 'new system' selling it as the next best thing. Some innocent get devastated, other innocent benefit.
The system is new. Yay for the shiny.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

It is not entirely surprising that Amazon is ceasing the public conversation on this matter as it encourages well meaning souls to explain on the internet how to others scam Kindle Unlimited. Learn from the security companies that research computer vulnerabilities - reveal that there is a problem, but don't detail how to exploit the vulnerability.


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## jrwilson (Apr 7, 2015)

I have a book under a pen name that rarely sells.  Yesterday it's rank improved by almost 25,000 positions without a sale or page read... It could be noise...  Or maybe Anazon is scrubbing...


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

jrwilson said:


> Yesterday it's rank improved by almost 25,000 positions without a sale or page read... It could be noise... Or maybe Anazon is scrubbing...


Day before yesterday, about 30,000 eBooks disappeared from the Kindle Store. So about 25,000 of them were ahead of your eBook in rank.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I also noticed that some low sellers of mine all got a ranking boost on the same day without any equivalent sales, which seems to coincide with the removal of a bunch of scam books.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> How COULD Amazon employees mistake your legit book for a scam one?


I don't know. But two friends had their books taken down this morning. One has an agent, and was able to get hers up in a couple hours. The other does not and she is still waiting. This is much worse than my box set disappearing for 24 hours. I have talked to the Amazon Executive guys in the past, but my contact works Tuesday-Saturday so I can't help her (though I did email that rep.)


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

The scammer books are definitely being removed. From other groups I'm on it' seems like there were tens-of-thousands of these books clogging up the system  ! 

Also reportedly, the scammers are losing their minds on their private message boards. Apparently, we're all a bunch of whiners and losers for raising an uproar and reporting them  . 

My issue is why did Amazon let this get so out of hand? The whole kerfuffle could've been avoided if a crackdown had happened sooner. 

Oh well.. now we just wait and see what fix they come up with in KU3. Probably a stronger page limitation perhaps. Or a limit on bundles and anthologies. Which would suck, because those were great marketing tools.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Amazon might have moved slow at first but now they understand the scam, it's going to be virtually wiped out.


I'm glad they're reviewing books, but a third person I know of just had a book taken down. No warning, and no explanation. I wish they could have moved a little slower, frankly.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

C. Gockel said:


> I'm glad they're reviewing books, but a third person I know of just had a book taken down. No warning, and no explanation. I wish they could have moved a little slower, frankly.


It's scorched earth time. You can almost set your clocks by it these days.


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## jellybelly (Apr 20, 2016)

I'm definitely glad they're reviewing books, but I really hope legit books don't get caught up in the crossfire. Unfortunately, Amazon doesn't have a very good track record on this front.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

There are always a few dolphins in the tuna nets. 

I am happy to hear they're apparently working to clean things up. We shall see.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

emilycantore said:


> Given they have their two-month delay in royalty payment, Amazon has a lot of time to investigate all those scam books that entice a click to the end. I have no doubt that there are time statistics Amazon collects showing how long a particular customer spends with a book open. Putting together the search of high earnings, short time, newly published gives enough info for a customer service rep to download the book, open it to see it's a scam and then block account/delete books.


Amazon does not know how long a reader has a book open. A lot of Kindle users disconnect their Wi-Fi to save battery life, and this is even more common for those using a Kindle app on their phone. I have a boxed set and its sales/reads are such that it's easy to track readers. I'll see 16 pages read, and then nothing else for a week, then it suddenly jumps to 2023 pages read. The reader has finished the book and logged in to get their next book.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> It's scorched earth time. You can almost set your clocks by it these days.


No one's surprised, right?

Right?


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

I see Amazon as this big, old dragon whose favorite pastime is to sleep while its human servants add coins to its hoard - please don't take this in a negative way, I actually really like that sleepy dragon! Now those human servants have been yelling and waving their arms long enough that the dragon woke up. It turned around - very slowly, since it's so old and so big - to look at the hoard behind it and check what's going on. The dragon has spotted the thieves! Time for a FIERY BREATH ATTACK.

I hope none of us get caught in it.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

There's nothing for Amazon to work on. The system works if Amazon chooses for it to work. No book that impacts readers (which is all Amazon cares about) is going to be able to exist without getting flagged by readers. If Amazon is doing their due diligence, those flagged books will be quickly pulled. It's quite possible that there are books that readers just aren't seeing, so they continue invisibly making money from clickfarms. If that's the case, Amazon isn't going to do anything about it. It doesn't impact their bottom dollar.


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## North Star Plotting (Jul 11, 2015)

Briteka said:


> If that's the case, Amazon isn't going to do anything about it. It doesn't impact their bottom dollar.


Unfortunately, this is probably the closest to the truth this thread has come.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

My friend Debra Dunbar did get caught up in it: http://debradunbar.com/2016/04/a-black-sunday/

Her Imp Series is one of my all time faves. I contacted everyone I know at Zon ... but they all work Tuesday - Saturday. I'm very upset about this.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> My friend Debra Dunbar did get caught up in it: http://debradunbar.com/2016/04/a-black-sunday/
> 
> Her Imp Series is one of my all time faves. I contacted everyone I know at Zon ... but they all work Tuesday - Saturday. I'm very upset about this.


What blows my mind about this and your book is that there is absolutely no way for anyone to mistake your actual books for scam books. I know, I know, maybe I just have too high of expectations for Amazon employees to recognize gibberish versus actual writing. I know I reported over 20 books in 5 minutes just from a brief glance at the blurb because it was obvious the difference but hey! What could I possible know that an Amazon employee wouldn't? headdesk.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I wonder how a mistake like Debra's happens. What sort of net are they casting and how do books that are in full-compliance get caught up in it? How do so many that aren't not get caught?


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

X. Aratare said:


> What blows my mind about this and your book is that there is absolutely no way for anyone to mistake your actual books for scam books. I know, I know, maybe I just have too high of expectations for Amazon employees to recognize gibberish versus actual writing. I know I reported over 20 books in 5 minutes just from a brief glance at the blurb because it was obvious the difference but hey! What could I possible know that an Amazon employee wouldn't? headdesk.


I have a sad suspicion they don't actually know what we're talking about when we talk about "scam books".


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Monique said:


> I wonder how a mistake like Debra's happens. What sort of net are they casting and how do books that are in full-compliance get caught up in it? How do so many that aren't not get caught?


Books reported are getting caught up. Books not reported are left alone. I assume the innocent books are drawing false reports for some reason.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Briteka said:


> Books reported are getting caught up. Books not reported are left alone. I assume the innocent books are drawing false reports for some reason.


But what kind of "review" can they possibly be doing, if they're catching legit books? Are they just yanking books based on complaints with no review? Because it feels like this is just begging for abuse.


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

stoney said:


> No one's surprised, right?
> 
> Right?


Sadly, not even a little surprised.  Feeling so bad for any actual writer getting caught in the net -- what an awful thing to happen!


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

Dragovian said:


> I have a sad suspicion they don't actually know what we're talking about when we talk about "scam books".


You may be right. I read on Debra's blog in the comments that people think that the reviews on weekends are done by bots, but Amazon has no staff to review any "errors". But even if it is bot review, how could they mistake randomized words with a novel? I guess every novel has words in it, in a given ... no, I'm not even going there! See this is the problem with Amazon overall, they want to have an algorythym for everything. So what if it catches more real books than scammers, so what if its so imperfect as to be ludicrous, so what if it causes their vendors heart attacks, lost time, lost sales, lost reputation, etc. They don't have to actually have GOOD people working for them to really figure stuff out. 80/20 rule! It's all good. But its not all good, because they created the problem in the first place but they don't pay. The authors pay. So shrug, that's what they're going to do. headdesk again.

I only have one book in KU and I would like KU to die a quick, painless death. I think that is the only way to solve the scammer problem entirely. But though Stony said it just fine it feels like Amazon makes its own problems and its solutions are just as bad.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Debra's book isn't even a KU book. Whatever net they cast to pick up KU scammers is dinging books outside of the KU system.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Briteka said:


> Books reported are getting caught up. Books not reported are left alone. I assume the innocent books are drawing false reports for some reason.


I don't think they're automatically removing books just because they're reported. That would certainly be a new and dangerous path.


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## farrago (Oct 29, 2013)

I can tell you the scammers have changed tactics and are adjusting. A whole raft of about 25 Victorian romances were uploaded between April 19 and 21. The covers suggests only one full length book, but look inside and one finds a list of up to 25 titles and encourages the reader to click on the title she prefers to read first... Two or three units/different ASINS by the same author are on the page, w/exact SAME covers/WITH A slight COLOR WASH and a different title. The books/shorts inside are shuffled. Kids books for ages 4 to 8 are being targeted, too. The text inside has no illustrations and no 8 year old could comprehend the text. 

The scammers are organizing 'pushes' via click farms and capturing the first page of TOP 100 FREE. That is a problem for those of us snagging a Bookbub slot in a FREE campaign and discover our books are not getting visibility and traction. That is an out-of-pocket $ loss. Huzzah. Nothing for it but to wait and see how it shakes out.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Secret video footage of an Amazon engineer fighting the scammers has been leaked!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Is possible, Nina. Will be interested to see what links you/we can see.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Alan Petersen said:


> Secret video footage of an Amazon engineer fighting the scammers has been leaked!


Maybe this is what they're hoping for ...


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> It's possible they're yanking material that's been duplicated more than a couple of times because of the common scam of re-ordering the same 20 stories in 20 different books.


I wonder if it is only KU box sets. Free box sets don't matter, or even non-KU box sets as they don't cost Zon anything other than storage space. I know Debra was in a box set at one point, not sure if she is anymore.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

I'd like to blog about this issue, and bug some of my contacts at Amazon if needed.

Can someone share with me some URLs to these forums the scammers hang out at? And some click farm URLs? 

JA Konrath


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

stoney said:


> No one's surprised, right?
> 
> Right?


No one should be, that's for sure.

One way to react to what happened to Debra Dunbar is to fear complaining about problems because we might get caught up in whatever solution Amazon devises.

A better way, IMO, is to realize that all these things -- the vulnerability to scamming, the disproportionate responses to problems, the canned responses to emails, the lack of customer service on weekends, the catching up of innocent authors/books in "solutions," etc. ad nauseum -- are symptoms of the same problem: inadequate resources being directed at KDP.

I've love to know how much of what Amazon makes from our sales is funneled back into building the KDP area of the company. If Amazon were happy to reap 1ish% profits from its indie ebook sales, the way it does from its products and services overall, I doubt this stuff would be happening.


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## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

> I'm actually trying to collate some books right now. Since I've only heard of a few books from legit authors getting yanked, I'm trying to find commonalities.
> 
> So far, the only thing I've found is that there are more Book 1s in the mix and that many of those book 1s have appeared in multiple collections or box sets. Not hers, per se, because I haven't gone through the entire catalog, but I did find that already on two more. Both had the book 1 live for a long time and had it in more than one box set.
> 
> It's possible they're yanking material that's been duplicated more than a couple of times because of the common scam of re-ordering the same 20 stories in 20 different books.


If you're right then the purge is probably being done programmatically and not by human review. That's why so many legitimate books are getting caught in the net.

Hopefully, this is just phase one (the clean up stage) before they implement phase 2 (actually counting pages read).


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Monique said:


> I don't think they're automatically removing books just because they're reported. That would certainly be a new and dangerous path.


This isn't a recent issue though. At least once a week, we get a post here about someone's book getting pulled accidentally.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Briteka said:


> This isn't a recent issue though. At least once a week, we get a post here about someone's book getting pulled accidentally.


Yes, we do. But books that are reported are not automatically removed, so there's more to it than a simple report.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Jack Kilborn said:


> I'd like to blog about this issue, and bug some of my contacts at Amazon if needed.
> 
> Can someone share with me some URLs to these forums the scammers hang out at? And some click farm URLs?
> 
> JA Konrath


Warrior Forum? It's open to everyone, so you can see all their posts.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Monique said:


> I don't think they're automatically removing books just because they're reported. That would certainly be a new and dangerous path.


No, I don't believe that either.

We've all seen or been on the receiving end of replies from two or more CSRs at Amazon that say contradictory things. Why anybody thinks their scam detection is going to be any more correct and efficient that their knowledge about their own systems and processes is beyond me.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

Jack Kilborn said:


> I'd like to blog about this issue, and bug some of my contacts at Amazon if needed.
> 
> Can someone share with me some URLs to these forums the scammers hang out at? And some click farm URLs?
> 
> JA Konrath


Urm, I'm sure Amazon may know of these sites themselves. Also, wouldn't naming and shaming these sites on a blog encourage others to try it out...behind the scenes? I dont see the benefit of sharing this info myself.


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## kevin armstrong (May 6, 2015)

I don't see the point of Amazon banning legitimate collections and omnibuses. Authors and their publishers were releasing these long before the advent of the e-book. I'm sure that Amazon can tell the difference between a legit omnibus and a scam 'book.'


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> My friend Debra Dunbar did get caught up in it: http://debradunbar.com/2016/04/a-black-sunday/
> 
> Her Imp Series is one of my all time faves. I contacted everyone I know at Zon ... but they all work Tuesday - Saturday. I'm very upset about this.


Nooooo! Her books are amazing! WTF Amazon?!


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## spajonas (Jun 4, 2013)

Modified to remove content by poster.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Andrew Murray said:


> Urm, I'm sure Amazon may know of these sites themselves. Also, wouldn't naming and shaming these sites on a blog encourage others to try it out...behind the scenes? I dont see the benefit of sharing this info myself.


Jack didn't say he was going to post the links; when I read his request I assumed it was research, though maybe not. I will say that if anyone wants to share any info with Jack here, they should PM him, not post the links here.

Betsy


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

I'm sorry Betsy but I never said he was going to post links on here... please show me where I said that. But it certainly read to me like he might via a blog. Also if all the info is out there, then that should be good enough... right? To form an article. Why ask for clickbait urls? I am positive Amazon will find these out for themselves.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

As a footnote: I am glad to see some major newspapers pick up on this. I think Amazon will have to act before the public become distrustful of the books sold. I totally get that it could hurt everyone.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Andrew Murray said:


> I'm sorry Betsy but I never said he was going to post links on here... please show me where I said that. But it certainly read to me like he might via a blog. Also if all the info is out there, then that should be good enough... right? To form an article. Why ask for clickbait urls? I am positive Amazon will find these out for themselves.


Sorry for being unclear. I didn't say you said he was going to post them here; I said



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Jack didn't say he was going to post the links; when I read his request I assumed it was research, though maybe not.


My thought was that he would go to see what the "scammers" were actually saying before writing about it.

Then, as a separate thought, following a period (perhaps I should have put in a paragraph break) I said to other members:



Betsy the Quilter said:


> I will say that if anyone wants to share any info with Jack here, they should PM him, not post the links here.


Because I agree with you, links to sites frequented by people looking to scam the system are not a good idea. Any links posted here will be removed. People who have links for Jack should PM him rather than post them here.

Sorry for any confusion.

Betsy


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

Betsy, I think we are on the same page. I am worried that for all the good Jack wants to do... making sites public will attract lurkers who fancy their chances. I am sure I have the wrong end of the stick though and that is not his intention. 
Oh, to be an indie in this day and age!


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

And that, WasAnn, was my fear. Not in any way saying that would happen, just urging caution. 
I don't want to be tempted to the darkside!!!!!!!!!!


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Jack Kilborn said:


> I'd like to blog about this issue, and bug some of my contacts at Amazon if needed.
> 
> Can someone share with me some URLs to these forums the scammers hang out at? And some click farm URLs?
> 
> JA Konrath


Dave Koziel's private Facebook group is also an entertaining goldmine. You have to go through his YouTube videos and follow the links to sign up. You can't find the group through a search.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

Amanda, would you say that Dave guy is a major culprit? Seems to be doing a lot of damage limitation these days.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Andrew Murray said:


> Amanda, would you say that Dave guy is a major culprit? Seems to be doing a lot of damage limitation these days.


Yes, but he's clearly lost his mojo and is scrambling right now. I think Koziel is trying to figure out a way to get back in Amazon's good graces and it's not working. He was banned from eBay at some point, too. He's scammed everywhere and is running out of places. The true hilarity of Koziel's group is his followers who are demanding what to do next and he has no answers just yet, although I'm sure he will come up with something new. He wants to save face but the program he was selling is dead.


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## MajesticMonkey (Sep 3, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Yes, but he's clearly lost his mojo and is scrambling right now. I think Koziel is trying to figure out a way to get back in Amazon's good graces and it's not working. He was banned from eBay at some point, too. He's scammed everywhere and is running out of places. The true hilarity of Koziel's group is his followers who are demanding what to do next and he has no answers just yet, although I'm sure he will come up with something new. He wants to save face but the program he was selling is dead.


Link that details some of this story
http://www.unleashthewealthwithin.net/kindle-publishing/


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

Andrew Murray said:


> Betsy, I think we are on the same page. I am worried that for all the good Jack wants to do... making sites public will attract lurkers who fancy their chances. I am sure I have the wrong end of the stick though and that is not his intention.
> Oh, to be an indie in this day and age!


You may not know this but Jack Kilborn is Joe Konrath, who does the Newbie Guide for Authors. He's a huge resource for indie authors and like Hugh Howey speaks up on indie authors' behalf with Amazon.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Part of me is rooting for the scammers just so we can do away with this stupid system that pays authors per page read.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

Briteka said:


> Part of me is rooting for the scammers just so we can do away with this stupid system that pays authors per page read.


Oh, I wish that Amazon would admit they have created a monster and do away with KU but I'm not holding my breath


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Briteka said:


> Part of me is rooting for the scammers just so we can do away with this stupid system that pays authors per page read.


What would be a better system in your opinion?


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> What would be a better system in your opinion?


A system that ACTUALLY counts the pages read, and gives off an alarm if each page is being read in less than a second.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

One of the big complaints about KU.1 was that scammers were uploading scamplets and getting paid per borrow like the legit writers. Amazon pivots with KU.2 but it doesn't take long for scammers to poke and prod and find another loophole. And when Amazon eventually rolls out KU.3 (I doubt they'll ditch KU) the scammers will find something else.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> What would be a better system in your opinion?


One that actually pays us for our book sales, instead of pretending that in the world of digital books that there's some magical difference between a "borrow" and a "sale." The idea that "borrowing" one of an effectively infinite number of copies of an ebook available through KU is the equivalent of borrowing a physical book from a library where scarcity is a very real factor is nothing but a fiction dreamed up by companies like Amazon who make money off the system by reducing the payout to the authors. That's it. It's a way for Amazon to screw authors out of the money that they'd be making on sales otherwise and skim off the extra as the middleman.

Is it good for consumers? Of course it is. But giving away everything in our catalogs would be great for consumers, too. So what? KU doesn't benefit us at all. It just reinforces the "race to the bottom" for pricing on Amazon. Amazon doesn't care about that at all because their goal with ebooks isn't to make a profit. It's simply a way to get people into the store. KU gets more people into the store, so they're happy. It doesn't even have to make money - and it doesn't. It just has to get people into the store, so they can report growth in their quarterlies.


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## RJ Crayton (Feb 6, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> Actually, A LOT of the scam books have been taken down. They're also cracking down on legitimate books though, too. One of my box sets was taken down a week or so ago because the "Number of authors mentioned on the covers does not match the number of authors in the book."
> 
> Except ... it did. It took about 24 hours and 3 hours of email/phone calls to get it fixed.
> 
> ...


I'm glad your group got the box set back up. However, how does having the number of authors on the cover be different than the number of authors in the box set create a scam? Do you have any idea what the reasoning is behind that? The TOC in the back, I understand because they're inflating page reads. But, unless they're saying you're pulling a bait and switch (advertising James Patterson, and giving them James Pavverson), I'm not sure how that's scammy.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

KU isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future, with or without scammers. It's time to adjust to the new reality )which is no longer new). If that's going wide, great. If that's going exclusive, great. There is no going back, though. Will KU last forever? No. It's a changing world thanks to technology. It is our reality for the next few years, though.
The program will tweak again, although page reads look to be remaining. Amazon has a clear vision of what they want the program to be and they're molding it one tweak at a time. Look for lower caps, restrictions on bundles and omnibuses, etc. Adapting is the only way to survive.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> Actually, A LOT of the scam books have been taken down. They're also cracking down on legitimate books though, too. One of my box sets was taken down a week or so ago because the "Number of authors mentioned on the covers does not match the number of authors in the book."
> 
> Except ... it did. It took about 24 hours and 3 hours of email/phone calls to get it fixed.
> 
> ...


Not sure if this is related, but they sent out an email about this book yesterday:



> From: "Amazon.com" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Kindle Title Gods and Mortals: Eleven Free Urban Fantasy & Paranormal Novels Featuring Thor, Loki, Greek Gods, Native American Spirits, Vampires, Werewolves, & More (ASIN:B00VCM31QK) has an available update
> Date: April 25, 2016 at 10:05:01 GMT+2
> 
> ...


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## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Adapting is the only way to survive.


That's it exactly! Bitching about it won't do it.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Evan of the R. said:


> Not sure if this is related, but they sent out an email about this book yesterday:


Amazon's disconnect from reality is starting to scare me.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Evan of the R. said:


> Not sure if this is related, but they sent out an email about this book yesterday:
> 
> 
> > From: "Amazon.com" <[email protected]>
> ...


Huh. That's ... weird. What could it mean? 

Maybe, "The book we sent you includes the wrong cover image, which is our fault entirely, but here's one with the right cover image, and we'll just blame the cover thing on the publisher"?

ETA: I mean, Amazon couldn't be doing something really wrong and bad, like removing those two novels from all previously downloaded copies of the collection, right? When did you download the book, Evan?


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## J.A. Cipriano (May 27, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Look for lower caps, restrictions on bundles and omnibuses, etc. Adapting is the only way to survive.


I'm still not quite sure why the max cap for a payment based on pages read is allowed to be greater than what you get as royalty from a sale in either KU 1 or KU2.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

KelliWolfe said:


> One that actually pays us for our book sales, instead of pretending that in the world of digital books that there's some magical difference between a "borrow" and a "sale." The idea that "borrowing" one of an effectively infinite number of copies of an ebook available through KU is the equivalent of borrowing a physical book from a library where scarcity is a very real factor is nothing but a fiction dreamed up by companies like Amazon who make money off the system by reducing the payout to the authors. That's it. It's a way for Amazon to screw authors out of the money that they'd be making on sales otherwise and skim off the extra as the middleman.
> 
> Is it good for consumers? Of course it is. But giving away everything in our catalogs would be great for consumers, too. So what? KU doesn't benefit us at all. It just reinforces the "race to the bottom" for pricing on Amazon. Amazon doesn't care about that at all because their goal with ebooks isn't to make a profit. It's simply a way to get people into the store. KU gets more people into the store, so they're happy. It doesn't even have to make money - and it doesn't. It just has to get people into the store, so they can report growth in their quarterlies.


This! But it's very unlikely they'll be scrapping KU. They don't like admitting defeat, and they've got too many people used to the program now.

I do wonder, with all this stuff going on, how many of the reads and borrows over the past two years were genuine. Is the program as popular as the numbers suggest? What percentage of the growth is down to the scammers?


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> KU isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future, with or without scammers. It's time to adjust to the new reality )which is no longer new). If that's going wide, great. If that's going exclusive, great. There is no going back, though. Will KU last forever? No. It's a changing world thanks to technology. It is our reality for the next few years, though.
> The program will tweak again, although page reads look to be remaining. Amazon has a clear vision of what they want the program to be and they're molding it one tweak at a time. Look for lower caps, restrictions on bundles and omnibuses, etc. Adapting is the only way to survive.


Amanda, you write with a convinction that suggests you have inside info as to what Zon's long-term plans for KU are. Do you or is it more a case of educated guessing? 
Cos with all the shenanigans I'm truly stumped as to how this program can ever work in a reasonable manner


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Amazon is still listing job openings for Kindle Unlimited. It isn't disappearing anytime soon.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/397130

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/382765


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Ava Glass said:


> Amazon is still listing job openings for Kindle Unlimited. It isn't disappearing anytime soon.
> 
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/397130
> 
> https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/382765


"Proven track record of critical thinking, thought leadership, and *tackling new, hard problems*." Yup.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

KelliWolfe said:


> One that actually pays us for our book sales, instead of pretending that in the world of digital books that there's some magical difference between a "borrow" and a "sale." The idea that "borrowing" one of an effectively infinite number of copies of an ebook available through KU is the equivalent of borrowing a physical book from a library where scarcity is a very real factor is nothing but a fiction dreamed up by companies like Amazon who make money off the system by reducing the payout to the authors. That's it. It's a way for Amazon to screw authors out of the money that they'd be making on sales otherwise and skim off the extra as the middleman.


Two questions:

1. don't some authors like being paid for pages read? If so, doesn't that make this issue less about a terrible system and more about personal preference?

2. can't you refuse to be part of KU by opting out?


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

What Amazon _has_ done is create a "newly designed risk framework" for their ebook content. They are looking for people to help "*teams think about risk and prevention early in the process, and look for persistent and pervasive error patterns, identify root causes and trends, and prevent recurrences*."

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/379643
https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/390206


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

Anarchist said:


> ...
> 2. can't you refuse to be part of KU by opting out?


Yes you can. Which is the bit I don't understand. If you don't like it you can either opt out or don't sign up. We have options, no one is forced into Select at gun point...


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Tilly said:


> Yes you can. Which is the bit I don't understand. If you don't like it you can either opt out or don't sign up. We have options, no one is forced into Select at gun point...


Right. And no one's forcing you to sell your work on Amazon alongside the scammers.

Except, it's not as simple as that, is it? If it was, you and everyone else wouldn't currently be complaining about them. The problems non-KU authors face because of the program have been well-documented on here. I'm not interested in rehashing them. I suspect you already know what they are anyway.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Lady Vine said:


> Right. And no one's forcing you to sell your work on Amazon alongside the scammers.
> 
> Except, it's not as simple as that, is it? If it was, you and everyone else wouldn't currently be complaining about them. The problems non-KU authors face because of the program have been well-documented on here. I'm not interested in rehashing them. I suspect you already know what they are anyway.


That is the root of the problem, though. People want things to happen one specific way: their way. They want the system to change when the reality is that it isn't going to change. KU reads go up every month. Is it scammers? Perhaps some, but it's clearly legitimate readers, too. Amazon is obviously getting what they want out of the program or they would discontinue it. That's not happening, so the system isn't going to change. People have to adapt to the system and make a choice. There is no correct answer for everyone. It's a personal decision. Amazon is not going to change the rules to make individual suppliers happy. The suppliers have to adapt in the bigger ecosystem. Is the scamming annoying? You bet. Is the choice to go exclusive or wide difficult? Yes. It doesn't change the simple truth that KU is here and staying right now and we have to adapt to it because it is not going to adapt to us.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Tilly said:


> Yes you can. Which is the bit I don't understand. If you don't like it you can either opt out or don't sign up. We have options, no one is forced into Select at gun point...


Books not enrolled in Select are at a major disadvantage against books which are in Select due to the way the ranking algorithms work. So yes, KU affects everyone who has books in the Amazon store, whether they're in KU or not.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Lady Vine said:


> Right. And no one's forcing you to sell your work on Amazon alongside the scammers.
> 
> Except, it's not as simple as that, is it? If it was, you and everyone else wouldn't currently be complaining about them. The problems non-KU authors face because of the program have been well-documented on here. I'm not interested in rehashing them. I suspect you already know what they are anyway.


Sure, there are challenges that come with opting out of KU. But those challenges don't confer an obligation on Amazon to mold KU to the wishes of every critic.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

KelliWolfe said:


> Books not enrolled in Select are at a major disadvantage against books which are in Select due to the way the ranking algorithms work. So yes, KU affects everyone who has books in the Amazon store, whether they're in KU or not.


I don't think anyone has ever said anything different. KU has a large footprint. But again, that doesn't confer an obligation on Amazon to mold KU to the wishes of every critic.

Amazon has a single legal obligation: to maximize shareholder value. Everything else is secondary.

Authors think KU should be a certain way because it benefits them. That's called entitlement.


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## Learning by lurking (Jan 17, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> KU reads go up every month. Is it scammers? Perhaps some, but it's clearly legitimate readers, too.


I wonder about this more now. They say that one kid did like 64000.00 in one month. If 60,000.00 of that was from KENP then that would be almost 13 million Kenp. The screenshot of the guy with the videos showed a one day spike of 1M Kenp. I keep reading on here of all of these click farms and closed loop systems being used in conjunction with the long books of gibberish.

When you couple that in with how many authors are enrolled to do research and borrow their own books I wonder what percentage of accounts are voracious readers. Is it even a third of the subscriptions? I remember thinking when they switched from KU1 to KU2 that if the authors who were upset with it all cancelled their subscriptions Amazon would have noticed the decline. These new reports make me think the program is not as hugely successful as the numbers may indicate.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Anarchist said:


> What would be a better system in your opinion?


A system that pays royalties, and if that doesn't work, then do away with the subscription model. There's no reason for it to exist anyway.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> KU isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future, with or without scammers. It's time to adjust to the new reality )which is no longer new). If that's going wide, great. If that's going exclusive, great. There is no going back, though. Will KU last forever? No. It's a changing world thanks to technology. It is our reality for the next few years, though.
> The program will tweak again, although page reads look to be remaining. Amazon has a clear vision of what they want the program to be and they're molding it one tweak at a time. Look for lower caps, restrictions on bundles and omnibuses, etc. Adapting is the only way to survive.


There's no reason that KU has to stay around. I still believe it's possible that Amazon loses a lot of money on it each month. It all depends on how much Amazon values that exclusivity. There is a point where Amazon will see KU as a bad business decision. I don't know when that'll happen, but if Amazon and KU continue to receive bad press while being unable to actually stop the scammers, they may throw in the towel.


----------



## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

Lady Vine said:


> Right. And no one's forcing you to sell your work on Amazon alongside the scammers.
> 
> Except, it's not as simple as that, is it? If it was, you and everyone else wouldn't currently be complaining about them.


Exactly. And I'm not complaining BTW.

I have a series wide and a couple of books left in Select. They're coming out in the next couple of weeks. I've made a decision for *my business*. If things change and I can see a better way to run my business, maybe I'll make a different decision.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Learning by lurking said:


> I wonder about this more now. They say that one kid did like 64000.00 in one month. If 60,000.00 of that was from KENP then that would be almost 13 million Kenp. The screenshot of the guy with the videos showed a one day spike of 1M Kenp. I keep reading on here of all of these click farms and closed loop systems being used in conjunction with the long books of gibberish.
> 
> When you couple that in with how many authors are enrolled to do research and borrow their own books I wonder what percentage of accounts are voracious readers. Is it even a third of the subscriptions? I remember thinking when they switched from KU1 to KU2 that if the authors who were upset with it all cancelled their subscriptions Amazon would have noticed the decline. These new reports make me think the program is not as hugely successful as the numbers may indicate.


Except legitimate authors with no click farms are seeing jumps, too. If KU was all click farms and people just checking their own stuff out Amaxon wouldn't be getting what they want, which is voracious readers who buy other items. Click farms don't do that. Amazon is clearly getting what they want out of the system. Drop by some reader groups one day. I would estimate a good 40 percent of the people in the three I frequent are KU members.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Anarchist said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1. don't some authors like being paid for pages read? If so, doesn't that make this issue less about a terrible system and more about personal preference?
> 
> 2. can't you refuse to be part of KU by opting out?


1.) I'm sure they do. I'm sure if KU went away, they'd like the increase of sales.

2.) Yes. But your launches aren't as strong if you're not in KU. KU=strong launches. Wide=longevity. The way to make the most money is to launch into KU. It would be foolish to hurt yourself by not being in KU when you first publish. Still, subscription services are a bad idea all around. Someone always loses, either the company offering the service, the reader, or the content creators. As it stands now, Amazon is on the losing end of KU. In order for it to be a profitable endeavor for them, they have to pass that loss onto someone else. So perhaps it's best for KU to go away before that loss gets passed onto us.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Briteka said:


> There's no reason that KU has to stay around. I still believe it's possible that Amazon loses a lot of money on it each month. It all depends on how much Amazon values that exclusivity. There is a point where Amazon will see KU as a bad business decision. I don't know when that'll happen, but if Amazon and KU continue to receive bad press while being unable to actually stop the scammers, they may throw in the towel.


I think you want to believe that. The reason for KU to stick around is as a funnel for Amazon. If it wasn't working it would already be gone instead of Amazon hiring more people. You don't want it to work so you don't see a reason. I don't think everyone feels the same way. Amazon will only see KU as a bad business decision if the readers aren't buying other things. We will never know how that is working out for them.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2016)

KelliWolfe said:


> Books not enrolled in Select are at a major disadvantage against books which are in Select due to the way the ranking algorithms work.


Personally, I have books out of KU which rank as good as the couple of books I have in KU, I certainly wouldn't call the difference a *major disadvantage*. I've not seen a noticeable impact on my titles that are wide, and you are discounting the percentage of income derived from other retailers like iTunes and B&N. YMMV


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Briteka said:


> 1.) I'm sure they do. I'm sure if KU went away, they'd like the increase of sales.
> 
> 2.) Yes. But your launches aren't as strong if you're not in KU. KU=strong launches. Wide=longevity. The way to make the most money is to launch into KU. It would be foolish to hurt yourself by not being in KU when you first publish. Still, subscription services are a bad idea all around. Someone always loses, either the company offering the service, the reader, or the content creators. As it stands now, Amazon is on the losing end of KU. In order for it to be a profitable endeavor for them, they have to pass that loss onto someone else. So perhaps it's best for KU to go away before that loss gets passed onto us.


Except Amazon doesn't need it to be profitable. They just need it to be a funnel for loyal shoppers. KU wasn't meant to be an answer to other subscription services. It was meant to be a draw for shoppers who like to read. Amazon has a luxury the others didn't: an expansive business model. They don't care if KU is profitable. They care if KU readers help their overall bottom line -- and by how much.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Briteka said:


> A system that pays royalties, and if that doesn't work, then do away with the subscription model. There's no reason for it to exist anyway.


Amazon is turning itself into a subscription business. Prime has given Amazon a massive competitive advantage. Prime Video is now monthly. Amazon Web Services recently cracked $10 billion in annual sales.

These days, if you _can_ build a subscription model, you build a subscription model.

I don't know the extent to which KU contributes to Amazon's bottom line today (and to be clear, none of us does). But Amazon is probably willing to lose millions of dollars today to dominate the book subscription market and lock out its competitors. That is a smart business strategy for companies with large war chests.

So when you say there's no reason for KU to exist, are you speaking as an author? Because Amazon certainly thinks it's in their interests. And they have a lot of skin in the game.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Tilly said:


> Personally, I have books out of KU which rank as good as the couple of books I have in KU, I certainly wouldn't call the difference a *major disadvantage*. I've not seen a noticeable impact on my titles that are wide, and you are discounting the percentage of income derived from other retailers like iTunes and B&N. YMMV


Rankings stabilize over time because of the way books sell. But when a book launches, it gets a huge bump from being in KU. It launches much stronger, giving it a high placement on the HNR list that wouldn't be possible without KU. That high position leads to even more sales, which leads to a possible ranking on the best seller list and good alsoboughts. That ranking and those alsoboughts lead to more sales once you hit the 30day/90day cliff. Once you have everything set for longevity, it's better to go wide because ranking and alsoboughts will sell your book without the need for KU. But you can't match that initial KU boost without spending a lot of money on promos.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Except Amazon doesn't need it to be profitable. They just need it to be a funnel for loyal shoppers. KU wasn't meant to be an answer to other subscription services. It was meant to be a draw for shoppers who like to read. Amazon has a luxury the others didn't: an expansive business model. They don't care if KU is profitable. They care if KU readers help their overall bottom line -- and by how much.


I believe you believe this, and I hope you're right.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Anarchist said:


> Amazon is turning itself into a subscription business. Prime has given Amazon a massive competitive advantage. Prime Video is now monthly. Amazon Web Services recently cracked $10 billion in annual sales.
> 
> These days, if you _can_ build a subscription model, you build a subscription model.
> 
> ...


Amazon would be silly to try and turn their business into a subscription business. Has any subscription model ever been profitable? Is Netflix profitable now (I honestly don't know. It's been a giant, sucking black hole for most of its existence), and if it is profitable, it's because it's moved content creation in-house, shrinking its library and how much it has to pay to outside content. Most other subscription models go out of business.

ETA: And when I say there's no reason for it to exist, I'm not talking from Amazon's point of view. Obviously Amazon has a reason for it to exist, or it wouldn't exist. In my opinion, KU exists to try and gobble up exclusivity and hurt other vendors. When I say there's no reason for it to exist, I mean from a content creator point of view. After all, I am not an Amazon cheerleader. I care about my own and other content creators' well being first. If something is good for Amazon, I don't care, especially if it's bad for everyone else.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Briteka said:


> Amazon would be silly to try and turn their business into a subscription business. Has any subscription model ever been profitable? Is Netflix profitable now (I honestly don't know. It's been a giant, sucking black hole for most of its existence), and if it is profitable, it's because it's moved content creation in-house, shrinking its library and how much it has to pay to outside content. Most other subscription models go out of business.


Netflix is massively profitable. I believe it has been for some time.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Actually I should say Netflix is massively profitable here and still positioning itself overseas.


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## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Amazon has a single legal obligation: to maximize shareholder value. Everything else is secondary.
> 
> Authors think KU should be a certain way because it benefits them. That's called entitlement.


Amazon had a legal obligation to provide the technology they claimed they had in place when they accepted my enrollment in Kindle Select. They were under the same legal obligation to me as I was to them when I had to badger Apple to remove a defunct edition of one of my novels from their site because I agreed to be exclusive. We had a contract.

The deal was pay-per-page read and it was made pretty clear from the outset as to how it would work. This is not "entitlement"--this is business. _My_ business. I made a business decision at the beginning of July 2015 based on this information to enroll my catalogue in Select. I upheld my end of the bargain. The platform partner did not.

Do I want KU to be a certain way? Yep. You bet. I want it to be the way Amazon _said_ it was when they set it up. I just came from the KDP forum where several fellows are insistent this is all in our collective batty heads because this pay-per-read thing is an IT snap--why would Amazon make such a mistake?

I think we are being extremely generous and more than fair with Amazon given this FUBAR.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

doolittle03 said:


> Amazon had a legal obligation to provide the technology they claimed they had in place when they accepted my enrollment in Kindle Select.


Please post a link to Amazon's T&C for KDP where they claim to have a certain technology in place. I'm willing to bet you cannot do it.

What you _can_ do is link to the T&C where they claim you will be paid for every page read. I'm willing to bet you _have_ been paid for every page read.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Netflix is massively profitable. I believe it has been for some time.


I still don't know if it's profitable. All I have from this article http://amigobulls.com/articles/netflix-is-set-to-become-solidly-profitable-in-2017 is Netflix saying they'll be "solidly profitable by 2017". Whatever that means.

It's interesting to note that the way Netflix is planning on becoming profitable is to cut out content creators. I still don't believe subscription models can be profitable when you have to pay out anything that resembles royalties. Simply put, people consume much more media than their $9.99 or whatever is worth. Amazon would be silly to move to such a model. Of course, they really aren't. Amazon Prime is a handful of Amazon-created shows, some free shows, and, unlike Netflix, a bunch of shows you have to actually purchase to watch.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Briteka said:


> Amazon Prime is a handful of Amazon-created shows, some free shows, and, unlike Netflix, a bunch of shows you have to actually purchase to watch.












Included in Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Prime-One-Year-Membership/dp/B00DBYBNEE


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I would estimate a good 40 percent of the people in the three I frequent are KU members.


I surveyed a post-apoc group...I don't know if the percentage was 40% but it was damn high and the comment I received from a few of them was 'that's how I sample new stuff from new authors.' My biggest complaint is there are a few things they could do relatively quickly that would bring the signal to noise ratio way up...But amazon isn't a high tech company any more so those things take a long time.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Anarchist said:


> Amazon is turning itself into a subscription business. Prime has given Amazon a massive competitive advantage. Prime Video is now monthly. Amazon Web Services recently cracked $10 billion in annual sales.
> 
> These days, if you _can_ build a subscription model, you build a subscription model.
> 
> ...


Yep, we're living in an era were everyone and their brother is offering a subscription plan. Save money on those expensive razor blades by joining the Gillette shave club. Premium WordPress themes like Elegant Themes (home of Divi) charge a yearly fee. Microsoft is doing everything to shove everyone into their yearly "Office 365" subscription service vs paying for the software once. There is a food service that I like called Munchery and they just added a subscription model so that subscribers who are charged a monthly fee get the meals cheaper than those who don't and so on.

KU is that business model for Amazon when it comes to ebooks and their main concern is growing that membership despite the scams and any other problems which they'll just address as they go along, but doubtful it's going away anytime soon. So all we can really do is make our business decisions, in or out of KU.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> Included in Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Prime-One-Year-Membership/dp/B00DBYBNEE


I'm going to assume Briteka was simply talking about the streaming portion of Prime, about which she is correct. Some stuff is included, but the bulk of it you have to pay handsomely for.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

SevenDays said:


> I'm going to assume Briteka was simply talking about the streaming portion of Prime, about which she is correct. Some stuff is included, but the bulk of it you have to pay handsomely for.


That's called Prime Video, not Prime. They're completely different products. Prime members receive free membership to Prime Video. They can otherwise pay a monthly fee, similar to Netflix streaming.

Moreover, Prime Video offers far more than a mere "handful of Amazon-created shows and some free shows." Some comparisons show that Prime Video offers more titles than Netflix streaming. And many of those titles are HBO-created shows, which Netflix streaming doesn't offer.


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## lonelywriter (Mar 8, 2016)

Scammer Dave Koziel responds with video alleging he has never done anything wrong:

"Am I The Ultimate Kindle Publishing Scammer?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzM02m5-G4U


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Briteka said:


> Amazon Prime is a handful of Amazon-created shows, some free shows, and, unlike Netflix, a bunch of shows you have to actually purchase to watch.


Hmmmmm.... I watch more series on Amazon Prime than I do on Netflix (I have both). And Netflix now has a handful of Netflix-created shows.

BTW, as a reader, I like KU, and because I'm not a browser on Amazon I don't see the "scam" books. I find my books here, or as suggestions on my Kindle, for the most part. But I realize KB members (the readers) are anomalies.

Betsy


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## jellybelly (Apr 20, 2016)

Yeah, as a reader I almost always just find my books from the ALBOs.

But I might be in the minority, I have no idea.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

The only thing Amazon cares about is... Amazon. We are cogs in the machine. As long as we provide value to the company Amazon will keep us around.  It's already been re-hashed over and over. We help Amazon by funneling customers into their system. 

Also, don't forget how much FREE advertising Amazon gets from us.  Think of all those Facebook Ads author run that funnel customers directly into Amazon. That's advertising dollars they don't have to spend.  So this is a business model with low entry costs and that provides it's own marketing. It doesn't get any better! 

Just remember. At the end of the day Amazon would dump the lot of us at the drop of a hat, if it served their bottom line. Right now we serve a purpose. They may not always be the case.  Build your loyal fan base.  It's the one thing Amazon doesn't have control over. Everything else - unfortunately we indies gleefully handed the keys of the kingdom over to Amazon. So there's no going back now. They are the new gatekeeper.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

aspiringwriter said:


> Scammer Dave Koziel responds with video alleging he has never done anything wrong:
> 
> "Am I The Ultimate Kindle Publishing Scammer?"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzM02m5-G4U


Man, that guy can talk....


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

While some KU members read a massive number of books, I would guess that's no more than half. Just like health club memberships, they count on a lot of people paying every month but using it very little. Some months I don't read a single KU book, and at most I read four or five. I just don't have the time. As Amanda says, I use it to sample authors, especially those I see on this forum.


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

jellybelly said:


> Yeah, as a reader I almost always just find my books from the ALBOs.
> 
> But I might be in the minority, I have no idea.


Don't think so. Amazon's search and categorization is wretched. Also boughts and top 100 are likely where a majority of readers find their next read.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

I rely heavily on bestseller lists to discover my next read and haven't spotted a single scam book yet. However, I've only browsed the post-apocalyptic and superhero lists lately.


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## Anna_ (Jan 18, 2015)

aspiringwriter said:


> Scammer Dave Koziel responds with video alleging he has never done anything wrong:
> 
> "Am I The Ultimate Kindle Publishing Scammer?"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzM02m5-G4U


Maybe I'm crazy, but he essentially admits he cheated the system!


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

AnnaA204 said:


> Maybe I'm crazy, but he essentially admits he cheated the system!


Oh D.K. is 100% unapologetic about it. He ran a private forum that taught other people how to do it. He's one of the main ring leaders.


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## lincolnjcole (Mar 15, 2016)

Yeah, people are unabashed about doing it and abusing the system, but that's just how things go!


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## klagodzki (Apr 26, 2016)

X. Aratare said:


> How COULD Amazon employees mistake your legit book for a scam one? I mean if this is Amazon's "fix" we have a bigger problem.


As a former programmer, I suspect the cleanup isn't manual. It's possible whatever logic they used got a bit overzealous. It is good to see, the accidents notwithstanding.


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

MKK said:


> Don't think so. Amazon's search and categorization is wretched. Also boughts and top 100 are likely where a majority of readers find their next read.


Which is especially depressing, given that Amazon's search (for books) used to be unparalleled. Book buyers using other stores would go to Amazon to search for a book and read up on it before buying in the store of their choice. Amazon have actively done this to themselves.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

KU is not going anywhere no matter how annoying scammers become. KU encourages publishers to consider releasing to Amazon exclusively and then possibly going wider after 3 months. A large portion of a books sales occur in those first three months so Amazon gets to earn more dollars and make its rivals less profitable.


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