# Kindles are taking away jobs



## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I like the Kindle and think it is the way to read books.  The old way of reading books on paper is going away.

It takes a lot of people to make a print book.  You need loggers, printers, ink producers, paper makers, etc. It affects a lot of jobs.

Now that tablets are becoming popular, more people will be reading their magazines on devices, rather than paper,  which means more jobs are going away as the demand for paper decreases.

Since I am an e-book author, it is beneficial to me and other Indie writers since we have an easy way to sell our books. 

However, I feel sorry for those people that have depended on the printed books for their livings.


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## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

It's the way of the world. When the Gutenberg press was invented, many monasteries lost a lucrative source of income since hand lettering and copying texts by schools of monks was no longer needed. When the computer came along, those who were experts in hand typesetting for press lost their jobs. As a freelance graphic designer, I see those who design specifically for print and who are resistant to ebook and web design to be the next to go.

Those of us in the print and design industry have a choice. See the writing on the wall, change and expand skill sets, and get ready to morph into the next phase. Or don't... and pick out your spot on the sidewalk...


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## Lambert (Nov 12, 2010)

There may be some people losing jobs, but it's also producing them.

I'm sure they are hiring people to make these devices. There will be more Indie authors making some bucks, and I'm sure there are other jobs being created by eBook readers.

Cover artist
Editors
Amazon workers
Ad agencies


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

I'm guessing the amount of jobs is the same.  It put writers to work, artists to work, proofreaders, copyeditors and so on.  Probably a lot of tech support and engineering jobs at Amazon too.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

It's not that I don't feel bad for them but more that this is the way of things. I know a few journalist who are also having a hard time of it right now. In situations like this, though, we either adapt or move on. Also, I was just talking about printing with a journalist and the printing press actually gets used more than you would think. They just offer bids on projects for other. Oddly, it is one of the things helping to make the paper profitable. I would imagine that books can't be that far off. Non-fiction seems to be holding strong so that's something.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Sorry. I find the premise of the thread title pretty silly. Amazon is always adding jobs. If anything the Kindle has _created_ jobs. But mostly, it's disingenuous to look at such specific things and draw broad conclusions.


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## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

I think in this instance "Kindle" is a metaphor for epublishing and ebooks in general, as well as the general trend toward digital data vs paper data. And there's no question this is a revolution in the industry. People who are totally wedded to the current system need to adapt or die...


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## meowzart (Mar 29, 2011)

Not losing...just shifting



Lambert said:


> There may be some people losing jobs, but it's also producing them.
> 
> I'm sure they are hiring people to make these devices. There will be more Indie authors making some bucks, and I'm sure there are other jobs being created by eBook readers.
> 
> ...


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

Yes, I think the jobs are shifting and those who are willing to learn new skill sets will eventually find work again in the new industries. Or at least that's how it should go.

I used to study graphic design years ago and at that time web design was just beginning to gain a toehold in the industry. Many of my fellow classmates only wanted to do print and sniffed at web design. I wonder whether they've changed their tune or are they collecting unemployment checks now?


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Sorry. I find the premise of the thread title pretty silly. Amazon is always adding jobs. If anything the Kindle has _created_ jobs. But mostly, it's disingenuous to look at such specific things and draw broad conclusions.


I agree and didn't he already post this thread somewhere around here once?


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## Muddypawz (Jan 13, 2009)

meowzart said:


> Not losing...just shifting


I totally agree.


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## NightGoat (Feb 2, 2011)

I've worked in IT since 1998, I've lost jobs due to outsourcing... so who cried for me? Anyone? No?

There is still life after every job, trust me as I have been down this road many, many times.
I'm still alive, thriving and buying Kindles and content from Amazon.


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## sherylb (Oct 27, 2008)

Franklin Eddy said:


> I like the Kindle and think it is the way to read books. The old way of reading books on paper is going away.
> It takes a lot of people to make a print book. You need loggers, printers, ink producers, paper makers, etc. It affects a lot of jobs.


You do realize there are more things made with paper than just books, don't you?
Loggers are still busy. Paper is still being made.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

I imagine the buggy whip manufacturers felt much the same way.


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## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

Victoria J said:


> Yes, I think the jobs are shifting and those who are willing to learn new skill sets will eventually find work again in the new industries. Or at least that's how it should go.
> 
> I used to study graphic design years ago and at that time web design was just beginning to gain a toehold in the industry. Many of my fellow classmates only wanted to do print and sniffed at web design. I wonder whether they've changed their tune or are they collecting unemployment checks now?


I'm on LinkedIn with a lot of graphic designers. Some are embracing new technology, some are very firmly wedded to the print industry and have no intention of changing. I personally think the latter are making a mistake. Many of them, for instance, have absolutely zero web/html skills. So now they struggle with making a simple portfolio page for their work, yet that's how most companies review portfolios now.

Yes, there are still many things being printed, and there will be for a long time. But I foresee a time in the not too distant future when the printed book is mostly of the specialized "coffee table" type, and virtually all regular fiction and non fiction, as well as college texts, etc. are digital.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Sorry. I find the premise of the thread title pretty silly. Amazon is always adding jobs. If anything the Kindle has _created_ jobs. But mostly, it's disingenuous to look at such specific things and draw broad conclusions.


x2

Stuff like this just makes me shake my head....


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## Brodys Mom (Nov 8, 2009)

I work for a paper company. Sales of paper have dropped 25% over the past two years. My boss has banned Kindles on company property, which is silly since none of our customers are book publishers. I hide my kindle in a hollowed out paper book so I can still read at lunchtime.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

intinst said:


> I imagine the buggy whip manufacturers felt much the same way.


And all those Secretarial Pools ....


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## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

DD Graphix said:


> Yes, there are still many things being printed, and there will be for a long time. But I foresee a time in the not too distant future when the printed book is mostly of the specialized "coffee table" type, and virtually all regular fiction and non fiction, as well as college texts, etc. are digital.


Those "coffee table" type books are what I did buy at Borders. They're not good on the Kindle. I miss Borders big time. I'd get a coupon from them . . . I had to use it / buy a book. *I love my "coffee table" books.*


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

I still remember a time when you had to go to the local print shop for letterheads, compliments slips, simple flyers ... everything. Colour lasers and software have cut the legs from under those businesses. There are many other industries which have been affected by computers and technology, but it's too easy to look at the current state of affairs and think 'this is how it's always been'

E.g. fax machines and their effect on mail (fax machines were huge once. I used to sell them.)
email and its effect on fax machines.
? and its effect on email.

and so it goes.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2011)

It takes a lot of people to make a Kindle.  It takes more staff to run amazon when the sales go up.

Sophistry accomplishes nothing.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

I mostly agree with the responders, but I think an argument can be made that, in general, technological progress has allowed more productivity from fewer workers and thus may cause fewer jobs.


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## TLM (Apr 8, 2010)

Typewriters are no longer being made.  Nor is the Poloraid camera.  It is shocking sometimes to see lists of things I grew up with that are no longer around.  Or stuff that we take for granted now that have only been around just a few years.  Cell phones, Microwaves, flat screen TVs.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Brodys Mom said:


> I work for a paper company. Sales of paper have dropped 25% over the past two years. My boss has banned Kindles on company property, which is silly since none of our customers are book publishers. I hide my kindle in a hollowed out paper book so I can still read at lunchtime.


This seriously made me laugh.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

sherylb said:


> You do realize there are more things made with paper than just books, don't you?
> Loggers are still busy. Paper is still being made.


Paper comes from fast-growing farmed trees, no loggers needed.

They do still cut timber for building and other purposes tho.


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## Brodys Mom (Nov 8, 2009)

fayrlite said:


> This seriously made me laugh.


 Yeah... my boss is a dumb ass.

Remember when they said email would hurt paper sales? But they didn't take in to count people printing out their emails.


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## jbcohen (Jul 29, 2011)

Now I am really dating myself, anyone remember when the media said that the PC would never last and the PC has no place in the home.  I also recall hearing people say that "no one will ever want to be connected to the internet."    now I am really dating myself.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

jbcohen said:


> Now I am really dating myself, anyone remember when the media said that the PC would never last and the PC has no place in the home. I also recall hearing people say that "no one will ever want to be connected to the internet."  now I am really dating myself.


I remember writing book reports by hand and typing them on a typewriter. If you make a mistake typing - you had to start the whole page over. It wasn't that long ago!


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## Pinworms (Oct 20, 2010)

DYB said:


> I remember writing book reports by hand and typing them on a typewriter. If you make a mistake typing - you had to start the whole page over. It wasn't that long ago!


When I was a little kid, I would write stories on my typewriter. When I made a typo, I would insert the words "oops, I mean _____" to make a correction. For example

"I went to the stoer, oops I mean store"

Took me like an hour to type stuff then, no way was I starting over!


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

ATMs put a lot of bank tellers out of work.


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## Neekeebee (Jan 10, 2009)

Brodys Mom said:


> Yeah... my boss is a dumb *ss.
> 
> Remember when they said email would hurt paper sales? But they didn't take in to count people printing out their emails.


You know, the first time you mentioned this about your boss, I thought you were kidding. 

Just remember to switch your paper book shell every once in a while...he might be paying more attention than you think!

N


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## Geemont (Nov 18, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> If anything the Kindle has _created_ jobs.


True, but most unemployed loggers aren't likely to learn computer programming at night school and relocate to Seattle for a job. Some might, kudos to them that do, but then they might have to face the music of their tech job getting outsourced to India.

There was a fellow on NPR a few weeks ago who claimed that people need to start thinking differently about the concept of _jobs_. People may need to learn to live their lives without jobs as an employee somewhere. Modern business _will_ be getting by on fewer employees and there _will_ be more people than jobs.


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

Geemont said:


> People may need to learn to live their lives without jobs as an employee somewhere. Modern business _will_ be getting by on fewer employees and there _will_ be more people than jobs.


There already are more people than jobs. The problem is in every business, not only publishing or logging. Well, I have to tell you that law firms, while getting by with fewer employees since 2009, are keeping the loggers busy by using huge volumes of paper in printing and re-editing documents over and over again.


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## patrickt (Aug 28, 2010)

"You need loggers, printers, ink producers, paper makers, etc. It affects a lot of jobs."

That's true but the politically correct want loggers, ink producers, paper makers, and probably the etcetera forced out of business anyway. Printers have been pretty much gone anyway.

Personally, I'd like to see the industry make up the difference in jobs by hiring more proofreaders.


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## DD Graphix (Jul 15, 2011)

Geemont said:


> There was a fellow on NPR a few weeks ago who claimed that people need to start thinking differently about the concept of _jobs_. People may need to learn to live their lives without jobs as an employee somewhere. Modern business _will_ be getting by on fewer employees and there _will_ be more people than jobs.


Absolutely. It is my belief that the "brick and mortar" office will mostly go away within the next decade or so. Why pay for construction, lights, heat, and AC? Why pay for hundreds if not thousands of computers and all of the other huge costs of having employees in house? I envision employers as mostly a very small plant of a few upper management folks, dealing with mostly telecommuters, which they pay a contract rate so they do not have to pay overtime or insurance. Maybe a subsidy for hardware/software.

I'm already in that world. I worked at a University for 11 years, then decided to go out on my own as a freelance graphic designer. Made it for 5 years (well really, made it for 3 years, struggled badly for 2 years, declared bankruptcy) Went back to work for a bricks and mortar place and what do you know, two years later they got a big funding cut and immediately slashed almost their entire communications department. So I went back out on my own. It's scary, it's hard work, but I think it's the way things will be. Now if the government would just stop taxing me at a rate more than double what the millionaires pay, I'd actually be able to afford health insurance...


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## meowzart (Mar 29, 2011)

Simon Haynes said:


> E.g. fax machines and their effect on mail (fax machines were huge once. I used to sell them.)
> email and its effect on fax machines.
> ? and its effect on email.
> 
> and so it goes.


We'll have microchips in our forehead and I'll just have to 'think' a message to you Simon!
I'll have to do a lot of 'filtering' then.... lol


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## jason10mm (Apr 7, 2009)

Are books even printed in America?

I think it would be funny if the book market collapses and books go back to being just a dollar or two. Bet you would see a decline in e-book sales then! This is why the publishers are so worried about $1-5 being the defacto "price" for an e-book. I anticipate them trying to strong arm amazon into mandating minimum price floors on indie books in the next few years. Hope it won't succeed, but I bet they will try.


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

I think people just need to learn to adapt.  Technology never stays the same or we never advance.  There has always been some new development that causes people who do things the old way to potentially lose their job.

At the same time, I am not one who thinks tablets and Kindles are going to wipe out standard printing.  I think the two can co-exist.


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## HeyDrew (Sep 12, 2011)

I can still buy CDs.  I got to Amoeba in San Francisco all the time and it's fun.  But most of my music comes from iTunes.  

I don't think books will be much different.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

Don't be too eager to write the epitath for paper books. Paper books aren't going to disappear. Buggy whips are a poor analogy, there simply wasn't room for both cars and horses on our roads. The advantages of cars over horses was much more certain than that of e-books over paper. There are advantages of paper books, they stay written - no memory hole with paper books, they require no technical expertise whatsoever to read them, there are no added costs in reading them, you can give them away or sell them, no one wants to steal your paper book.

The e-book continue to have a greater share of the book market, but it is not going to drive the paper book out. MP3s haven't driven out CDs, some people prefer to just download, other people like the CD as a convenient backup.


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## Blue Bull Book Design (Sep 18, 2011)

patrickt said:


> Personally, I'd like to see the industry make up the difference in jobs by hiring more proofreaders.


We proofreaders can only dream!  And fume at typos, but we do that anyway.

If we end up with some kind of system like DD Graphix describes with both paper and digital books, I can actually see the publishing industry _creating_ jobs, albeit very different ones. Proofreaders, editors, formatters, marketers, and cover designers for ebooks; labor, design, delivery, and all kinds of tech support for ereading devices; plus a lot of the many various specialities needed to create a high-quality paper book. Of course, I'm a young un, so maybe I'm seeing all this tech through rose-colored glasses.


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## Joe Chiappetta (May 20, 2010)

I think it's more of a power shift than job losses. Who has more power? We do.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Geemont said:


> True, but most unemployed loggers aren't likely to learn computer programming at night school and relocate to Seattle for a job. Some might, kudos to them that do, but then they might have to face the music of their tech job getting outsourced to India.
> 
> There was a fellow on NPR a few weeks ago who claimed that people need to start thinking differently about the concept of _jobs_. People may need to learn to live their lives without jobs as an employee somewhere. Modern business _will_ be getting by on fewer employees and there _will_ be more people than jobs.


In 1987-88, I went to the Board of Commissioners meetings for the Cedar River watershed, where Seattle gets its water. I was a Parks Dept representative.

Even back then it was clear that logging was a profession that was on its way down, we were wrestling with spotted owl, salmon, and old growth forest issues. There were less and less jobs every year..... the handwriting's been on the wall for decades.

People need to plan better or be more creative (Like so many farmers and the agri-tourism trends, for example.)


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

Jobs is the main topic now on the news.  The president talks about jobs, so do all the Republican candidates running for President.  However, it seems that jobs are going away faster than they can be created.

It is just a matter of time until most products that are made overseas will be made locally.  In the US, there isn't a lot of production now.  Those jobs went overseas.  However, automation will change all of that.  This production will return.  However, the jobs won't since the new factories will be fully automated and will have few workers.

The world will change and even proofreaders will be out of a jobs someday.  All we need is a good word processor that catches all of the errors.

I believe that there are very few jobs that can't be automated eventually.


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## Sandpiper (Oct 28, 2008)

mlewis78 said:


> There already are more people than jobs. The problem is in every business, not only publishing or logging. Well, I have to tell you that law firms, while getting by with fewer employees since 2009, are keeping the loggers busy by using huge volumes of paper in printing and re-editing documents over and over again.


You got that right. It's far easier for lawyers to edit *and print* documents ad infinitum today than it was pre-computers.

E-mail has not been good though for the post office.


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## Geemont (Nov 18, 2008)

I've been listening to NPR again. Maybe that's the problem.



> Bill Frezza, a venture capitalist and a fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute says the idea that creating jobs leads to growth and prosperity is a fallacy. He tells Lynn Neary that the jobs myth is at the heart of the nation's unemployment problems.
> 
> Listen Here


Basically, he says job creation is not the responsibility of the business owners: business exists to make the best product at the best price for customers and to make profit for share holders. If job creation is the goal, outlaw word processors and bring back the typing pool.

In my opinion, I think he overlooks the fact that if there are no jobs (or income stream) for people, then there will be less customers to buy the product.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Interesting....what will happen when everything is automated, no one has jobs and no one can buy the products produced by automation?


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

Sandpiper said:


> It's far easier for lawyers to edit *and print* documents ad infinitum today than it was pre-computers.


Yes, Computers provide faster and more printing.

I still do my best writing editing hardcopy. It is also a lot faster.


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## srmalloy (Mar 3, 2009)

Franklin Eddy said:


> It takes a lot of people to make a print book. You need loggers, printers, ink producers, paper makers, etc. It affects a lot of jobs.
> 
> Now that tablets are becoming popular, more people will be reading their magazines on devices, rather than paper, which means more jobs are going away as the demand for paper decreases.


And, while we're here, let's have a moment of silence for all those buggy-whip manufacturers forced out of business by the introduction of the automobile...


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## Kubizo (Oct 2, 2011)

True that jobs are shifting, but I believe the overall is less. Printed books require printing companies, warehouses, transportation companies, retails stores, etc... True that you need to manufacture the Kindle and edit the cover of an e-book, but I think it takes a lot less people.

However, that is not a bad thing.



> However, I feel sorry for those people that have depended on the printed books for their livings.


Same for peasants when the plow was invented. Fewer people were needed to feed everyone, then you started having merchants, craftsmen, etc...

If the transition is gradual, people have time to shift from books to something else. And I don't think there will be a shock.

Ciao!


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Interesting....what will happen when everything is automated, no one has jobs and no one can buy the products produced by automation?


Keep in mind our country can produce plenty for everyone to have the basic necessities of life. So it is really a distribution of these resources. What I really think will happen eventually will be a welfare state where everyone is given a fixed income each month. If a person wants more money than that, he will have to find a job to earn more. However, the only jobs will be held by highly education people.

Kindle is just part of this automation thing that is going to increase, not decrease until there are very few jobs.

The concept of jobs may go away. The future is changing so fast that none of us can predict it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Moving this thread to Not Quite Kindle, as, well, it's Not really Quite about the Kindle...  

Betsy


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Franklin Eddy said:


> Keep in mind our country can produce plenty for everyone to have the basic necessities of life. So it is really a distribution of these resources. What I really think will happen eventually will be a welfare state where everyone is given a fixed income each month. If a person wants more money than that, he will have to find a job to earn more. However, the only jobs will be held by highly education people.
> 
> Kindle is just part of this automation thing that is going to increase, not decrease until there are very few jobs.
> 
> The concept of jobs may go away. The future is changing so fast that none of us can predict it.


Interesting....history would say that the masses on the Dole will not be happy with subsistence living and will rise up and take the extra that the well educated "earned". Unless you have a very repressive government.....

Sounds like a good idea for a book.

Capitalism right now seems to be best choice of economy because opportunity exists for those that want to take advantage of it and work hard. As opportunities decrease and you have no options....it will probably get ugly


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## Kubizo (Oct 2, 2011)

> What I really think will happen eventually will be a welfare state where everyone is given a fixed income each month. If a person wants more money than that, he will have to find a job to earn more.


The same could have been said in the middle ages: when agriculture gets automated with trucks, sprinklers and machines, only the most educated will operate those machines and the others will just be given food.

In my opinion it is not the case and, I would add, heaven forbid that happens.

Just like men stopped working the land with manual tools and started doing new things, when the things we do now become automated people will start doing new things that we can't even imagine right now.

While it's true that the living standards of a medieval lord were probably worse from many (not all) points of view than those of an unemployed worker today, it is also true that the bar is rising.

As soon as toys are available, people want them. What has happened (especially in Europe, not much in US) is that people work less and less hours thanks to an increased productivity, but everybody keeps working.

And let's face it, Friday night would not be the same without the working week!


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## Tara Maya (Nov 4, 2010)

When the printing press first spread in Europe, there were already scribes that catered to middle class collectors. The customer would order a book, and the bookstores would hire a bunch of scribes to copy the book by hand. When the printing press began to spread, some of these scribes pooh-poohed the technology. Others jumped on it and began to print like crazy. They were now able to sell more products to more people. They ended up hiring a lot more people to man the presses and deliver the books. Of course, you can guess which scribes went out of business and which got rich. Although a few did hang on hand-writing books till the end!


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

CVS has been aiming to replace its human check-out employees with machines.  (I'm sure there are many others, including super markets, but CVS is the store I've seen doing this in Manhattan).    Sometimes my machine check-outs run smoothly, but sometimes it doesn't.  Had to call for an employee this week while checking out. I was using my own shopping bags, and the machine kept telling me to put the item in the bag, over and over.  I said "shut up."  Then it said the item's weight didn't match up.  Arrrgh!


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