# Rant: Spent over $3000 on 2 editors, Still getting reviews calling out errors!



## scbarrus (Nov 26, 2013)

[deleted]

I've decided to delete my rant. I was frustrated and needed to vent but didn't think anybody would read it. Well, I was wrong. So I'm going to retract my statements. I realized that I was spreading a negative message, and I don't want to continue to do that. Thanks for everybody giving me their support, criticism, and suggestions. I really appreciate it.


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## RockyGrede (Apr 19, 2013)

You need a quick proof reader. Someone to just go over it. I can recommend someone I used. I'll find her details and drop you a pm.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

What is the crux of the complaints? Is it developmental, grammatical, typographical? A mix? 

Here's the deal on editors (and please don't throw tomatoes KBers!): they're not all equal and it's hard to weed them out. Cost SHOULD imply quality, but it doesn't (and a ton of readers profess to be 'editors' now and have no real grasp on mechanics).

I had this exact problem with my debut (2011), which has since been rewritten in its entirety. Oddly, this editor (and I'll never mention names) had educational credentials to back up their role as editor and they were also a fellow indie author. Numerous typos got through because I leaned too heavily on their 'professional assessment', blindly thinking that I was paying for everything to get caught. Lesson learned. No one is as invested in your work as you are.

If the errors are typographical, I'd recommend listening to your book on text-to-speech because the ears hear what the eyes can't see. It's how I catch any very final draft issues. 

If they're developmental, do you have another author you trust to work with? A second set of writer's eyes goes a long way. I now beta with someone whose work I admire and vise versa.

If it's a mix, you can do both of the above or keep suffering the review knocks (which will eventually drive you nuts--from personal experience).

Good luck!


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## John Ellsworth (Jun 1, 2014)

My ex- is a retired English teacher of 45 years who is great with a red pen.  If it's there she'll likely find it.  She charges me $500 per book.  Please let me if you want her email.


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## NathanMeunier (Aug 10, 2013)

I feel like beta readers who have experience as writers might be a big help in your case. I've beta-read friends and colleagues' work, and if I'm asked to note any typo or grammar issues I find as I go, I'm happy to do so and I find it doesn't diminish the reading experience.

If you have a mailing list, put out a call for anyone interested in beta-reading. If you like, you can engage some to do a pre-read before you send to an editor, and then have others do a post-read. The more eyeballs you can get on it before you launch, the better.


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## Norman Crane (Sep 25, 2013)

The reviews on Amazon seem solid. Even the three-star review that mentions typos is a positive one. It sucks that you spent $3000 on editors, but maybe they weren't very good *or* the person who gave you three stars didn't like the writing style (rather than just a few typos). For example, the reviewer mentions your comma usage. Commas are weird beasts.

_Thankfully, most people don't mind._ / _Thankfully most people don't mind._

To me, that's a stylistic choice. To a reader one could be wrong and the other right _especially if she's reading a self-published book_. I'd focus on the many positives in the reviews, take into account the criticisms not dealing with typos, and hire different editors or proofreaders next time.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Yeah, I pointed that out in your other thread a couple of weeks back. You've got big punctuation/grammar problems. Like this:

*"Excuse me, Professor," she wore a curious smile.*

I don't know if that's a proofreading problem or a gap in your understanding of punctuation. If it's the latter, there are tons of punctuation guides online that can help.

As for your so-called editors, I'd ask for my money back, because they're worse than useless.


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## Alleycat (May 2, 2014)

Ugh; that's frustrating.

I read a lot, and I catch at least four or five typos in most self-published books that are by big-name authors who have well-regarded editors.

(Slight hijack): I can't decide if this is just because no editor will catch everything (I used to be a newspaper editor) or if I should cross those books' editors off my list of potential editors.

I'm often tempted to write to the authors letting them know which typos are where, but I don't know if it's welcomed. I would never mention editing errors in a review unless there were a ton of awful errors.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

Just wanted to echo the sympathy sentiment. I also wanted to say that all the editors I know (especially if they are charging the rates you paid) should go back and do a re-edit for free.  Everyone is human and mistakes are made.  Typos happen.  But explain to them that you have received several negative reviews stating there are errors and you would like it corrected.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Alleycat said:


> I read a lot, and I catch at least four or five typos in most self-published books that are by big-name authors who have well-regarded editors.


I catch them in trade published books all the time, too! (Including my own  )


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

In defense of editors... No one can catch every mistake. Especially if they're editing for a dyslexic like me.


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## Ronny K (Aug 2, 2011)

scbarrus said:


> thorough editing process.


Hard to respond without knowing what the thorough editing process entailed, but if you only used 2 editors and yourself, I'd say that's not enough on average. It also depends on the type of editing services. I know plenty of folks who charge for line edits and developmental edits, and they'll jump on typos & grammar that they find, but they're not promising to act as a proofreader, which is in itself is another job. Get pure proofreaders. Get at least half a dozen of them. The only way to get all the kinks out is many, many sets of eyes. And as an editor can sometimes be more concerned with issues larger than minor grammar issues, they too (just as authors do) can let their eyes be worn down by the text.

That said, I do sympathize. I'm a freak for details, and it's crucial to look as professional as possible (though remember that big 5 books have typos galore).


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Someone recommended a free software programme called Ginger. Doesn't catch everything, but might help as a first line of editing.

My neighbour, a retired lecturer used to editing students' essays, kindly went over one of my books after it had been edited and found several small errors. I'm going to ask him to do any future books


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2014)

Editors are not proofreaders. Proofreading is a completely different skill set from editing. When I am editing, I am not hunting typos. I'm correcting plot holes, pacing, character development, mood, and other structural issues. You don't hire an editor to proofread. You hire a proofreader to proofread.

In addition, "needs editing" is a catch-all term used by people who can't put their finger on what they don't like about a book. It doesn't always mean typos or missing commas. Sometimes it simply means that the person didn't like it as much as they thought they would. Like when someone says something "doesn't taste right." Well, no, it tastes exactly the way it is supposed to taste. The person just doesn't personally like the flavor. The recipe was cook correctly. The person eating it just doesn't like it and can't articulate why. 

Finally, chances are very high the people commenting that the book needs editing are other authors. No, I don't mean they are trying to hurt you. Indies are HYPER SENSITIVE to typos and grammar and have made the old attacks regarding indie quality a self-fulfilling prophesy. We tend to see problems in indie books that we don't always see in trade books because we are LOOKING for them. And we think we are being helpful when we point these things out. But in reality it is just this ugly cycle of reinforcing the idea that indie books are lower quality and making everyone crazy hunting typos and stray semicolons  and thinking they need to "help" but calling these things out in reviews, which leads to indies pulling their hair out and screaming "I spend over $3000 on two editors!"


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## Pamela (Oct 6, 2010)

Reviewers read other reviews.  Even after the book is perfect you'll get readers who want to seem smart.  They've seen remarks about mistakes, they want to seem intelligent and will say there were mistakes.  It's sad but true.


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## jimbro (Jan 10, 2014)

belindaf said:


> ... I'd recommend listening to your book on text-to-speech because the ears hear what the eyes can't see. It's how I catch any very final draft issues. ...


I very strongly second this recommendation. Belinda is absolutely right on this. MS Word, yWriter(free) and Scrivener all have this ability. No need for additional software.


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## abishop (May 22, 2014)

SevenDays said:


> I catch them in trade published books all the time, too! (Including my own  )


I can't remember the last time I read a novel, self-published or trade published, that had zero spelling or grammar errors. Orphaned brackets seem to be a particularly common problem for whatever reason.


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## scbarrus (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I've been stewing about it and just needed to let it out. I didn't expect anyone to actually respond, I appreciate it. I will use my beta readers much better next time (I used them mostly for developmental editing this time). Live and learn I guess.



belindaf said:


> What is the crux of the complaints? Is it developmental, grammatical, typographical? A mix?


They mostly grammatical, with a couple homophone misuse (whole instead of hole), which I have a tendency to write and then read over during rewrites.

At least I've learned a bit more about publishing, my next book will be a much more polished process. I'm determined not to repeat this sort of mistake.



RockyGrede said:


> You need a quick proof reader. Someone to just go over it. I can recommend someone I used. I'll find her details and drop you a pm.


I PM'd you. But if she charges I just can't afford it right now. The only thing I can afford is giving out either the ebook or raw word file to a volunteer, unfortunately. I've invested so much into making this thing the best I could, I don't have any left to fix it, lol. Luckily it was largely funded by kickstarter, but still frustrating.


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## scbarrus (Nov 26, 2013)

jimbro said:


> If the errors are typographical, I'd recommend listening to your book on text-to-speech because the ears hear what the eyes can't see. It's how I catch any very final draft issues.





jimbro said:


> I very strongly second this recommendation. Belinda is absolutely right on this. MS Word, yWriter(free) and Scrivener all have this ability. No need for additional software.


That's a great idea. Thanks.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Is it possible that the reviews coming in now are from people who bought your book prior to you fixing it? They wouldn't have the newer copy, I don't think.


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## scbarrus (Nov 26, 2013)

Lady Vine said:


> Is it possible that the reviews coming in now are from people who bought your book prior to you fixing it? They wouldn't have the newer copy, I don't think.


Yeah, I've considered that too. I know for certain some of the early ones were, so I replied to those reviews and offered them a free updated version. I think 2 people took me up on it. Considering doing that again, but it was updated 2 months ago. Not sure if it's still relevant or not.


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## scbarrus (Nov 26, 2013)

SevenDays said:


> Yeah, I pointed that out in your other thread a couple of weeks back. You've got big punctuation/grammar problems. Like this:
> 
> *"Excuse me, Professor," she wore a curious smile.*


Either works for me. Why don't you post them if you're willing to take the time to do that. Thanks for offering.


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

That can be frustrating. Given the amount of money you've invested, I'm not even sure what you should do. I know I'd be very hesitant to spend anything more on it. On the other hand, I also wouldn't want to leave it out there if readers are finding and commenting on the number of typos. Been there, done that.

It took me several iterations before I found an editor I've been very happy with. That being said, I still employ multiple proofreaders on my longer works.

I remember one typo in particular... I missed it, my editor missed it, my first proofreader missed it, but, luckily, my second proofreader (my wife) found it. Redundancy is key.


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## UltraRob (Dec 5, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Someone recommended a free software programme called Ginger. Doesn't catch everything, but might help as a first line of editing.


I tried Ginger out, and I like it. I'd actually use it as a last line of editing, to hunt for those tiny mistakes that always seem to creep in before I hit publish. However, for some people who can't afford a professional editor, it could be a great tool to knock most of the bugs out of their prose. And it's free!

Edit: Just wanted to add that if you copy-paste your chapters into Ginger, it takes time before the issues start being highlighted. Let it sit a bit while the system checks things before you edit.

Thanks!
Rob


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## Sarah Barbour (Jun 25, 2012)

In addition to Belinda's excellent advice to listen to your manuscript, I suggest:

* Re-reading the text enlarged to 200% or so;
* Re-reading it in a different font;
* Going over it using whatever grammar/spelling check option your software offers.

None of these substitute for a second pair of eyes, but they'll almost always help you catch something you'd otherwise overlook.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

SevenDays said:


> *"Excuse me, Professor," she wore a curious smile.*


If this is happening, I'd suggest that the main problem isn't the editing but the writing. The more dense the book is with errors, the more impossible the proofreading task. You really need to hone up on mechanics because that's part of writing, too. You will never be able to afford the kind of editing you need otherwise.

THAT SAID, I now use the following process to reduce typos. (I'm dyslexic and dysgraphic, which means that not only do I have a hard time seeing errors, I make a lot because of terrible fine motor skills, which anyone who follows my posts has certainly noticed.)

1. Me.
2. Editor
3. Me
4. Two beta readers
5. Me
6. Proof reader
7. Me
8. ARC reviewers.

BTW, 2, 4, and 6 all think they've caught everything. LOL. Always!

By the time it gets to the ARC reviewers, there's about one mistake every 4000 words. I have a ninja ARC reviewer who catches ALMOST all of the remaining ones, and a lot of them don't catch any at all by that point! LOL. I THINK my mss are clean at this point. I'm not sure.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I know some have exchanged services in the past. Are you in a position to do that?


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Yikes! I edit my own work profusely. Plus, I have an English degree. I suck at proofreading but after 40 grand into an English degree, I only have to pay a nominal fee for a decent proofreader. Still, my proofreader sometimes misses my crappy spelling errors. That's my Achilles heel. We all have them. I'd never pay more than a couple hundred bucks for an editor after all my education. I can't imagine paying that much. I'm really sorry you are still having issues.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> Yikes! I edit my own work profusely. Plus, I have an English degree. I suck at proofreading but after 40 grand into an English degree, I only have to pay a nominal fee for a decent proofreader. Still, my proofreader sometimes misses my crappy spelling errors. That's my Achilles heel. We all have them. I'd never pay more than a couple hundred bucks for an editor after all my education. I can't imagine paying that much. I'm really sorry you are still having issues.


Not to diss your education or anything, but having an English degree and being good at editing are two entirely different things. You might as well claim to be able to perform surgery on small animals because you have a biology degree.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Often a book doesn't contain an unusual number of errors but, because it's known to be self-published, people remark on things they otherwise wouldn't. A lot of areas that get flagged as "mistakes" are actually stylistic choices the reader (often a fellow author) is simply unfamiliar with. No one has as many stylistic pet peeves as another writer. 

That said, no editor is perfect and even the best admit occasional errors slip past them. If you're uncertain what kind of shape you're in, I suggest hiring a reasonably priced proofreader. Check his testimonial page and see who else he's worked with. And, this is just my personal opinion, but I haven't found that higher prices guarantee better editing quality. I'd look at editors and proofers well under $1000.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> Not to diss your education or anything, but having an English degree and being good at editing are two entirely different things. You might as well claim to be able to perform surgery on small animals because you have a biology degree.


My basic mechanics are solid. Yes. I claim that. I sure as [crap] hope so after all that time and money. They didn't actually teach me to write fiction, but they taught me to use the language. They taught me punctuation and grammar and sentence structure. If you have those basics down, you don't need as much editing. Sorry, it's the truth. /shrugs

I do pay a proofreader. I can't proofread my own work at all. I'm also a bad speller.

I had to teach myself to write in my genre. I didn't need to spend a dime in college for that. I probably didn't need it at all. I got most of my grammar education from a community college class. The fact is that an English degree is about writing essays. Professors will rip you a new one if your papers are full of errors. English degrees are about writing... and editing your writing. That's what the degree is. That and learning why you hate old English literature.

Sometimes I will buy a book that is selling really well and the sentence structure is sooo bad. I can't believe it's selling so well. But... what can you do? A lot of what determines what sells is keyword phrases and writing to a very specific audience.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

If you are willing to spend a little, I would recommend trying out elance. You can add a range for how much you are willing to pay. (Most) Bidders will bid within that range. I found award winning editors, former acquisitions editors, and PhD students who were fantastic at developmental editing, line editing, and proofreading. I paid for several rounds of editing which brought up the total cost for my book, but I don't think that I ever paid over $400 or $500 for a single editing pass.


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## BlairErotica (Mar 1, 2014)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Someone recommended a free software programme called Ginger. Doesn't catch everything, but might help as a first line of editing.


Warning. I just went and checked this out and it is not really free software. After a week they disable some features so you will need to buy the premium version, which they don't say on the site. Plus, you can't even tell which features go away. It's crappy marketing. Having said that, for all I know this is the best program in the world, but I uninstalled it the moment the email explaining that arrived (it gets sent after you create an account, which is after you've installed it.)


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## steffmetal (May 8, 2014)

Oh no! You have my sympathies. This happened to me as well, with my novel At War With Satan. I paid someone to edit it - not as much as you, but still a princely sum - and just assumed, "Well, she knows what she's doing, so it must be pretty clean by now," only to discover after release some spelling / grammar / continuity errors. I'm doing a revised copy right now, but it's really frustrating, because I have a new book I want to release asap, and I'd like to move on from metalheads and demons and badgers. There's some really good suggestions in this thread - I find that reading aloud or printing the manuscript out and looking at it on paper help to catch a lot of errors.


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## Ronny K (Aug 2, 2011)

Kalypsō said:


> If you have those basics down, you don't need as much editing. Sorry, it's the truth. /shrugs


I totally agree that having that degree is a big leg up, and I wouldn't argue with your merits.

But for those people who "don't have the basics down..." The answer is not to get an editor. The answer is that they shouldn't be fiction writers to begin with. IMO


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Ronny K said:


> But for those people who "don't have the basics down..." The answer is not to get an editor. The answer is that they shouldn't be fiction writers to begin with. IMO


I disagree. Story is king. The ability to tell a good story is the key ingredient of a successful fiction author. So long as the story is good, as a reader I will ignore a few mechanical errors. Given the choice between a good story by someone who 'doesn't have the (grammar and punctuation) basics down' and a boring story with perfect mechanics, I will choose the good story. Every time.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

vmblack said:


> *If this is happening, I'd suggest that the main problem isn't the editing but the writing.* The more dense the book is with errors, the more impossible the proofreading task. You really need to hone up on mechanics because that's part of writing, too. You will never be able to afford the kind of editing you need otherwise.


I'm glad I'm not the only one to think this. Minor errors are one thing, but judging by the examples put up in another response, you need to get the basics down.



Ronny K said:


> I totally agree that having that degree is a big leg up, and I wouldn't argue with your merits.
> 
> But for those people who "don't have the basics down..." *The answer is not to get an editor. The answer is that they shouldn't be fiction writers to begin with.* IMO


This is a bit harsh, don't you think? The basics of language can be learned, and someone may be a fine storyteller who just needs to do a bit of studying.

[/quote]


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Ronny K said:


> But for those people who "don't have the basics down..." The answer is not to get an editor. The answer is that they shouldn't be fiction writers to begin with. IMO


It isn't THAT hard to learn basic mechanics. It's harder to become a better speller. lol. Punctuation and grammar are far easier to learn. Some people are more naturally adept at picking those things up, but it doesn't mean not everyone can do it.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Ronny K said:


> I totally agree that having that degree is a big leg up, and I wouldn't argue with your merits.
> 
> But for those people who "don't have the basics down..." The answer is not to get an editor. The answer is that they shouldn't be fiction writers to begin with. IMO


The answer is that they should learn the basics.

Bluntly, there's no excuse for a sentence like: "Excuse me, Professor," she wore a curious smile.

I can see that in a first draft. I do all sorts of goofy things in mine. First drafts can have any number of mistakes, nobody cares.

But the first read-through should have caught that and it should have been fixed. If not, a second read-through should have caught it.

If it wasn't caught because the OP doesn't recognize it as an error, then the OP needs to learn the basics.

If it wasn't caught by either editor because the manuscript was so riddled with errors it slipped through the cracks, the editors should never have taken the manuscript on. Many editors won't take on really error-riddled writing, because they know it isn't ready for them yet. If one is going to see tons of basic errors and take it on, there's no excuse for leaving as many as are in the sample of this book (and there are many, sorry OP).

So the editors either missed it because they're not very good, or because some errors slipped through the cracks in an error-riddled manuscript. I wish I knew who edited it, so I could avoid them in the future.

I'm boggled that _two_ different editors missed so much, which reminds me of a third possibility. Were there many editor corrections that were ignored? Could that have been one of them? Are the errors things the writer thought weren't really mistake and so left as they were? We can't know at a glance.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Ronny K said:


> But for those people who "don't have the basics down..." The answer is not to get an editor. The answer is that they shouldn't be fiction writers to begin with. IMO


Mechanics can be learned.  But...they NEED to be learned.

Copy editing is for fixing mistakes and will still be necessary, however you do it. But think of it in terms of an income boost. If you need lots of help, your editing will EASILY cost $.05 per word, and there will still be lots of mistakes. If your copy editing needs are extremely light, your editing will cost $.002 per word, and there will be very few mistakes. That's a real income boost there!


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Or perhaps the wrong manuscript was uploaded?


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

It's tough to avoid errors, though we all try. I use three editors and by the time the third one gets it there's about 20 mistakes left. Of course, she may be missing a few too. I've been working with these editors for a few years now and trust them implicitly, but there's always room for human error. I read trad pub books with errors all the time. I don't think most readers expect perfection. I know, as a reader, I can overlook the odd mistake as long as it doesn't pull me from the story.


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

I think editing and proofing are different skills sets (although a person can be good at both). If its just typos, then a good proofreader shouldn't cost too much.

My editor is wonderful but I still had some typos sneak through -- matching instead or marching, for example. 't' and 'r' look so similar when reading--most minds just adjust based on context.

I found reading the novel on my kindle helped find any last typos, not sure why. Maybe it was the different font.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Ronny K said:


> I totally agree that having that degree is a big leg up, and I wouldn't argue with your merits.
> 
> But for those people who "don't have the basics down..." The answer is not to get an editor. The answer is that they shouldn't be fiction writers to begin with. IMO


I totally disagree with this. Your perspective reminds me of the mentality of many gatekeepers. I know some minority writers who are simply products of their educational systems. Simply because they weren't exposed to the same level of instruction as many of you does not mean they should not have an opportunity to share their story.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I totally disagree with this. Your perspective reminds me of the mentality of many gatekeepers. I know some minority writers who are simply products of their educational systems. Simply because they weren't exposed to the same level of instruction as many of you does not mean they should not have an opportunity to share their story.


I think his assertion is in the minority here. I definitely don't believe it. (I got my degree as a single, welfare mother btw.) But, I know what you are talking about. Entrenched poverty is a serious issue, and everyone should be allowed to share their stories.

Reviewers will skewer you if you have errors though. That should be a good enough incentive to learn basic of mechanics. Taking one community college class on mechanics will save you thousands of dollars on editors. It's a good investment in my opinion.


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## sstroble (Dec 16, 2013)

All time worst horror incident I read was of an author who paid a company $5,000 to publish  a book only to have the cover come out with a typo on it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

At Kalypso,
No offense to your degree but one of the worst books I ever read was from a PhD in English.  He was a tenured college professor. The book read like a first draft in an English 1301(or whatever the first college course is).
Just saying.

Now to the OP, if it is Discovering, I will read it carefully and let you know.


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

You have my sympathy. It has to be really discouraging to have paid for editing and still have that many errors.
The sample of errors shown by David S. is inexcusable. The editors should have found these.
They're basic errors, that even a mediocre editor should have found. 

I have to admit though, that I find it hard to believe 2 editors would've missed these.
Maybe 1 really bad editor, but 2?
Anyway, as everyone has suggested, you should invest in some grammar books or lessons.
In the future, I would hire 1 editor and then a proofreader to go over the manuscript again. 

When you're thinking about hiring an editor, they'll normally send you a short sample of your corrected work.
Take that sample and give it to a proofreader who does shorts. 
It should only cost a few dollars for them to do a check and it'll let you know that the first editor is at least decent.
You'll spend about $20 on the proofreader, but you'l save $1500 on editor #2.


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## Luis dA (Jun 1, 2014)

S.C., I can almost feel your pain. Do yourself a big favor and give yourself a big hug for me, will ya’? Your novel is finished. Start on the next one ASAP. Your book is good. It’s very good, and it’s done.

I’m often saddened how good people like you can be dismayed and nearly tortured by the doubts a couple of dudes on forum – that’s all amazon.com is – can inflict through their self important reviews of someone else’s  work. 

Why not change your attitude and think of yourself as an artist instead of a desperate soul trying to please everybody. Liberate yourself and write freed and with gusto. Errors of the kind you are accused of --  I don’t know what your accusers are talking about. I don’t see anything wrong. All the examples cited in this review from people such as I who are genuinely trying to help are unimportant. I’m even talking about "Excuse me, Professor," she wore a curious smile. that one of the posters here mentions. I like it. I love it in fact! It’s sexy, it’s extravagant in all it’s iconoclastic imagery. Give me more, S.C.! 

One of the posters listed a score of questionable issues in your book. Sorry, but I saw nothing of concern. I see issues of opinion, and nothing to trouble me with your story. The very idea that several dudes – believe me, they’re all dudes – liked your book and then from their high literary perches awarded you three stars as retribution for errors of questionable grammar and the like, leaves me unimpressed with their manners. One of the posters here mentioned that short of grammatical blitzkrieg she never penalizes for typos in awarding stars.

You are happy with your book. That is enough. Do you know why? Because you don’t depend on its sales to put jam on your toast. You can be an artist. You can leave artisanal marks on your work, and it’s okay. The lovely part about amazon.com is that anyone who thinks your evilness harmed their blessed unlittered minds that glory in the vastness of literary perfection, is they can get their ninety-nine cents back; and their precious time lost on chapter eleven of your book? Oh dear but life is cruel.

Write your best. Review it and if you need, have another person or a program review it, and then ship. No matter how great you get it, someone will razz it because they can and because it’s indie. Go out into the cool dark night unafraid and write without fear, or be frightened by every self appointed critic with a scepter up their ass.

It’s your choice.

With warm regards.

Luis


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

David S. said:


> I fear the cattle prod, so I'll just bite my tongue and then swish some rum around in my mouth.


This. Except make mine whiskey.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

I have some apple brandy.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

David S. said:


> I fear the cattle prod, so I'll just bite my tongue and then swish some rum around in my mouth.


I'm sitting on my hands, but have no rum to make it easier.  Which is how the one hand keeps getting loose:



Luis dA said:


> Errors of the kind you are accused of -- I don't know what your accusers are talking about. I don't see anything wrong. All the examples cited in this review from people such as I who are genuinely trying to help are unimportant. I'm even talking about "Excuse me, Professor," she wore a curious smile. that one of the posters here mentions. I like it. I love it in fact! It's sexy, it's extravagant in all it's iconoclastic imagery.


There are times to bend the rules, and certain rules that should never be bent. That's just an obvious mistake. If you can't see what's wrong even after the mistakes are listed for you, then you don't know the basics. Calling those mistakes art is really just a lack of respect for the medium.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

eBook editors are hands down one of the biggest scams on the internet these days. I think microsoft word's grammar checker is a better deal.


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## Luis dA (Jun 1, 2014)

Ha! The drinks are on me guys. Belly up to the bar.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> I found reading the novel on my kindle helped find any last typos, not sure why. Maybe it was the different font.


I always find different errors in Scrivener than on my Kindle. I think it has something to do with the reading experience.

I've heard it said that every book, traditionally published or otherwise, has errors. Unfortunately, people tend to look for them in indie books. We have to be continuous learners. I learn from each edit and am able to self-edit many things I couldn't a year ago.

Get as many eyes on it as possible; different people will see different errors. It's also easier to find them in other people's work. I got to read an ARC of a book that gets discussed here often, and with as much editing as it went through, I still found about five errors that had been missed.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

vanstry said:


> eBook editors are hands down one of the biggest scams on the internet these days. I think microsoft word's grammar checker is a better deal.


What do you mean by that, other than that MS Word's grammar checker is free?

Hundreds of errors, beginning in the blurb, turn off many, many readers.

An excellent resource:

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/section/1/6/


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one to think this. Minor errors are one thing, but judging by the examples put up in another response, you need to get the basics down.
> 
> This is a bit harsh, don't you think? The basics of language can be learned, and someone may be a fine storyteller who just needs to do a bit of studying.


Give me a good storyteller over a professor of English any day in the week.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> At Kalypso,
> No offense to your degree but one of the worst books I ever read was from a PhD in English. He was a tenured college professor. The book read like a first draft in an English 1301(or whatever the first college course is).
> Just saying.
> 
> Now to the OP, if it is Discovering, I will read it carefully and let you know.


I think degrees have become a dirty word. And I largely think mine was a waste of money.

No, just because someone has a degree doesn't make them competent. But lets hope the educational system isn't so broken that every person who graduates is not competent in their field.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

vmblack said:


> What do you mean by that, other than that MS Word's grammar checker is free?
> 
> Hundreds of errors, beginning in the blurb, turn off many, many readers.


I think I understand where that poster was coming from.

There are excellent service providers out there. There are excellent book tour companies. There are excellent editors and proofreaders. There are excellent cover designers. There are excellent promotional sites.

But then there are the people who look at those successful providers and think they can mimic that success. As an example, recently a new tour company popped up; instead of sourcing new customers, (allegedly) they began to steal content from another tour company and posted it on their page in order to give the impression that they knew what they were doing.

I think we've all seen this with the amount of new promotional sites that opened up after the success of PoI and Bookbub. Not all new promotional sites are scams, obviously, but I do wonder if some of these new sites are more focused on getting as much money out of authors than providing a service to readers.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Then you should choose someone you can have confidence in (based on personal recommendations) rather than forego it entirely.

I would STRONGLY recommend Carol Davis, for instance.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

The most valuable books for collection are the first editions (esp. signed by the author). The way book collectors identify a first edition? By the errors.

Even the most diligent of editors will miss something. I keep a list of persnickety and OCD friends as my final proofreaders, because they pick out the tiny mistakes that everyone misses. My book, when we thought it was all free and clear, still had a bunch of errors that were picked up by one reader after it was published! Yes, I was embarrassed. I fixed the errors, redeployed the ebook, and put him at the top of my proofreading list. 

Different people catch different things. A developmental editor is someone who helps you work with style and the flow of your story, and may even suggest changes to the story like removing some scenes or creating new ones. Copy editors get down to the mechanics of your text: grammar, sentence structure, and spelling errors that you somehow missed, even though your computer had it highlighted in red. Proofreaders are the final line of defense before release. The read through the book and pick up on any blips in your narrative, whether plot related or simply spelling errors that got past the editing gauntlet.

Don't expect that a development editor is going to catch grammar errors and don't expect a copy or line editor to give you development suggestions. Someone who is good at one is not necessarily very good at the other. If someone did a poor job at editing, I probably won't use them for that purpose again.

The reason many writers keep separate groups of editors/proof readers is because even the best editor, after staring at the some manuscript for weeks, is going to start missing mistakes. Just like you did during the months it took you to write it.

Vent here. Blow off whatever anger has you steamed up. Then, _professionally_ and _politely_, send a letter to your editor(s) (whichever one may have been responsible for missing those errors) and give that person a list of things he/she missed.

The mistakes in my own book that escaped notice, I can only blame myself. I moved a little too quickly to push it out, when I should have sent it for one last round of proof reading before publishing.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

A friend of mine had his last novel published by Tor. He sent me the final manuscript for me to read and I caught a major error. The kind of error that fans of science fiction would pick up in an instant. I contacted him immediately about it and–

It had already gone to print!

So, we had a good laugh. First edition blues.


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

David S. said:


> lightly freckled -- I'd say lightly-freckled, and you seem to have previously used this style with half-cloaked.


Remember that modifiers that end in -ly do NOT take hyphens before the noun they modify. Fast-paced, half-baked, two-ton; quickly driven, softly spoken, strangely silent.

ETA: Of course, it does depend on meaning, too; cf this Q & A from CMOS:

Q. I'm taking a popular online copyediting course. One of my answers to a quiz was marked wrong because I failed to identify "early-warning system" as an instance of incorrect hyphen usage. According to the answer key, this is incorrect because adverbs ending in -ly should not be followed with hyphens. I think early is used as an adjective in this example and should therefore take a hyphen.

A. You're right. A hyphen after early may also be needed to prevent ambiguity: early voting statistics aren't necessarily early-voting statistics.


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## Sylvia R. Frost (Jan 8, 2014)

Hey, Barrus

I just want to chime in here to say I'm so sorry this is happening to you, dude. This is really rough! It's always tough to hear that there's something wrong with your book, and I can't imagine hearing this after spending so much time and money. It's even harder, because you're getting all this information on a public forum where everyone can pile on. Even if they're speaking the truth, it's still super hard. 

So first of all, hang in there. 

Second of all, I'd recommend talking to Carol Davis about proofreading. If you can't afford to have the whole manuscript re-proofed, ask her to just do the first chapter. Perhaps, and I don't know if this is something she'd do, ask her to explain the rules that you're breaking. Doesn't have to be the whole seven page explanation. She can just C+P a link attached to each instance. Then go through your whole manuscript and check for similar errors. 

If there are some rules you're weak on, you'll still have to brush up on them, but I think this might be a good first step.

For me, I often find that it's not that I don't know grammar, but that I forget things. 

I once had a whole chapter (1.7 draft) where I wrote parent's instead of parents'. My brain just decided to rewrite the rule. Obviously I know it should be parents', but my eye had grown accustomed to it.

I think it can be really valuable to have someone really go through the first chapter in depth, let you know where your serious problem areas are. Then you can  go through the manuscript as a whole using those problem areas as a check list. 

I also wonder if trying to write in a certain style has cramped up your grammar as well.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

WDR said:


> The most valuable books for collection are the first editions (esp. signed by the author). The way book collectors identify a first edition? By the errors.


The number line on the title page will also say 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1. Or 1 3 5 7 9 10 8 6 4 2. Or a lot of things. ETA: Good point about the typos.

ETA add for the OP: do you read a lot of books in your genre? Or any genre? If so, pay close attention to the next book you read. Read a couple by the top author in your genre and see how they do it. I doubt you'll find any dialog tags like the curious smile one, but then you'll know.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

vmblack said:


> I would STRONGLY recommend Carol Davis, for instance.


+1. She's lovely to work with, very proficient, and incredibly quick.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

If you use more than one editor, make a style sheet!


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## IPG (Mar 8, 2014)

Dude:

Yes, fix what you can and keep learning.

But also just chill:
http://www.bookerrata.com/index2.html

-IPG.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Wow, that's a lot of money. I'm sorry that it didn't work out.


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## Andrea Harding (Feb 27, 2013)

If it helps, I was frothing at the mouth because I found numerous errors in the first Game of Thrones book this weekend.

There was a delightful instance where I discovered a bird pecking morsels of 'white and yoke' from an egg. Some kind of special farmers' Kinder egg, with handy farm toys inside, methinks?


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## e-chant (May 6, 2014)

David S. said:


> lightly freckled -- I'd say lightly-freckled, and you seem to have previously used this style with half-cloaked.


I think this is an adverb, modifying an adjective, so I think normally no hyphen is required. But I reserve the right to be wrong. 

See here:

http://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/adjectives_compound_adjectives.htm

EDIT. Ooh 1001 beat me too it. I MUST read more throughly.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

OP has deleted his original comment and requested the thread be locked.


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