# Questions About Writing (Sci-fi/Fantasy)



## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

I am new to fiction writing, and I am looking for some advice/opinions on about how I should go about this. I am working on writing a a full-length sci-fi/fantasy novel mix. It is aimed at gamers (I am Game Journalist/Reviewer), so there is the "out-of-game" side of things(Sci-fi), and the "in-game" side(Fantasy). So far I have written four chapters (plus a very bad prologue), which comes out to around 22,000 words.

Right now, my biggest questions are: There is basically no conflict until the very end of the third chapter, and that conflict consist of the protagonist being mugged. Is this OK for a sci-fi/fantasy novel?

Other than that, is it alright if my protagonist starts out as someone that the reader wont like? I've shown the story to someone I know, and some of the feedback he gave me said he thought that the protagonist wasn't a very good character. Sense then, I have tried to expand his 'personality' a bit so that the reader can get to know him better, but he's still the same guy.

And my last question (for now) has to do with formatting. I enjoy reading books that have spaces between paragraphs. Because of this, when I write, I have spaces between my paragraphs. Is this something I should change? I am aware that the "traditional" way to do it is to have no spacing between paragraphs. To clarify, I have indention's and spaces between paragraphs.

If you would be willing to provide feedback, please feel free to visit the blog that I created for the sole purpose of getting feedback. Please be aware that the formatting used on the blog is lacking indention as they wont carry over when I copy/paste the writing from my Word doc. Also, this probably isn't the place to ask for advice on writing (or is it?), but I have been searching high and low and have yet to find a decent, active forum where people can post their stuff and get feedback.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Conflict should always be introduced as quickly as possible.

If your first three chapters are backstory and other throat-clearing, delete them. Readers "need" to know a lot less before the story starts than you think they do.

Fiction does not use empty lines between paragraphs, but indents the first line of the paragraph by about 5mm. This is a pretty non-flexible rule.


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## kurzon (Feb 26, 2011)

If nothing much happens in the first four chapters, maybe you're starting your book in the wrong place.  I try to start my books when "something changes".

But, frankly, this is the first novel you've ever written.  Stop stressing over it.  Write whatever you damn well want, put it in a drawer for a few months, and then re-read it.  You'll learn more from doing that than you ever will agonising over whether you're starting it correctly.


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## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

Ah, I don't mean to give the impression I'm stressing over it. I plan to write this how I please no matter what feedback I get (if it's something that makes sense to me and fits with the image I have in my head of what this novel will be like, I will use the feedback). 

I just enjoy collecting opinions. It helps motivate me to continue writing, even if the opinion goes against what I am doing, or completely agrees with it. And the purpose of format question is to figure out how I should format it when/if I decide to publish. 

Edit: To clarify, this novel is a learning experience for me, which is why I am absolutely writing it the way I enjoy the story, rather than the way that a majority of readers would.


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## Ell (Mar 4, 2013)

I would say go back to the books you really like and try figure why do you like them. That could be biased because you already know the story and you might not see the thing that kept you reading in the first place. Instead, I would go on Amazon and abuse the "Look inside" function. Which one would you keep reading after the first couple of pages? Why?


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2013)

The conflict should at least be hinted at. I've got no idea what the story is about, but say you've got political thriller elements, then a good way to bridge that tension gap would be to have him walk by a newsfeed talking about the worsening crisis, have his TV run in the background talking about clashes, maybe have a note arrive in his mail to receive a physical examination (for the draft), something like that. You don't have to start with a nuclear explosion, but the reader should get a hint that something big and potentially very bad is going on.

Edit: You don't necessarily have to introduce the _main_ conflict right away, but there should be some form of conflict early on.


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## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

Just write the story how you want to. It's a learning process and you learn by doing. Absolutely write the story the way you like to have a story told, and write the story that you want to tell. Simply be aware that readers expect certain conventions to be followed and if you want to sell the story, you have to take that into account.

You can have an exciting Science Fiction story with no one ever becoming physical with someone else. Conflict doesn't necessarily mean a physical attack on someone -- like the mugging you mention. Conflict can be as mild as a child asking to be excused from the table to watch TV and the mother saying he has to finish his vegetables first. The kid says something like, "But Mom, I'll miss the beginning." 

Kid wants to do something. Mother prevents him. Conflict. A clash of wills. 

It can also reside within one character. Your protagonist sees an accident and wants to help but also wants to remain unnoticed. If he helps, he'll be noticed; if he doesn't help, he'll feel bad. Conflict. An inner clash.

The conflict makes the reader want to go on: Will the child get his way, or will the mother? What will be the result in either case? Will the child learn to hate the mother, grow up spoiled and self-centred? In the second example: What will the protagonist do: Help or walk away? What will that cause in the future? Will he be discovered and hunted? Will his inaction eat away at him, leading him to a greater danger down the road? Read on to find out.

Conflict, as another responder told you, should begin as soon as possible.

Yes, you can have a protagonist that the reader won't particularly like. It's a more difficult process, and you'd be advised to ensure he has at least some likable characteristics. If we're not going to like him, then he'd better interest and intrigue us. But again, this is if you are writing for a wider public. If you are only writing for yourself, for practice or for joy, it doesn't matter.


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

Readers today are impatient. Cut to the chase and get on with it. Nobody ever moaned about a story that was TOO exciting.


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## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

D.A. Boulter said:


> Just write the story how you want to. It's a learning process and you learn by doing. Absolutely write the story the way you like to have a story told, and write the story that you want to tell. Simply be aware that readers expect certain conventions to be followed and if you want to sell the story, you have to take that into account.
> 
> You can have an exciting Science Fiction story with no one ever becoming physical with someone else. Conflict doesn't necessarily mean a physical attack on someone -- like the mugging you mention. Conflict can be as mild as a child asking to be excused from the table to watch TV and the mother saying he has to finish his vegetables first. The kid says something like, "But Mom, I'll miss the beginning."
> 
> ...


Well, perhaps I have some sort of conflict right away. In the first chapter, the protagonist pre-orders his NID (the device that allows him to enter the virtual game world) so that he would be guaranteed to have it on time for the launch of Forever Realms (the flagship title of the NID). Unfortunately, something goes wrong and he does not get in time. In fact, it is not until a week later (after having contacted the customer support) that he gets the NID. So, instead of getting a headstart like he had wanted, he gets a late start. And then, not a week after he has been able to play the game, he gets mugged. In the fourth chapter, it is explained that the mugging has made it impossible for him to play the game for more than tiny sessions each day (for reasons also explained in that chapter).

Would that be considered conflict? And in the story, the character is reading forum post (essentially the news) about building tensions between the the Lyhytkansa (the player race that the North Americans are locked in to player, basically halflings who inhabit a plains-type area) and the Korkeakansa (South Koreans, who inhabit a great forest). Essentially, a warmonger came in to power over the largest guild in the North American side of things, and sees this as an opportunity to get much needed lumber (the NA players had obliterated almost all of the tiny bit of wood that was available in their plains). So, he convinces the North Americans that they need to attack the South Koreans because the South Koreans had been raiding North American player settlements.

All of the above is happening in the background and the character does not get involved until later on in the story (not to much later, but I am not sure which chapter yet. Probably fifth or sixth). He pieces together what is happening by reading these forum post.

Would this kind of stuff be seen as conflict?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Tension does not equate action.

Without reading the story, I would say that it *could* be considered conflict provided that the reader knows and understands that the main character will die if he does not get to play this game (or something equivalent). We need to understand the stakes before we can care about the character's success or failure.


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## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Tension does not equate action.
> 
> Without reading the story, I would say that it *could* be considered conflict provided that the reader knows and understands that the main character will die if he does not get to play this game (or something equivalent). We need to understand the stakes before we can care about the character's success or failure.


Ah, I see. Well, there is no conflict where anything major is at stake in the story, yet. The keeping him from entering the game just impedes on his virtual self's progress, which to a gamer is usually important. The development and experiencing of the game. The story is, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your view) is aimed at gamers, so there are some things that may not be immediately relevant to some readers. Such as the need for a gamer to play their game.

I actually came across a funny video that kind of expresses this. This is a parody of reality, of course. But it can give you an idea of how a gamer can feel when they are unable to play their game, especially when it's the developers/publishers fault. (Warning, there may be some foul language.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCAz8hfTX-s


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## Brad__W (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm of the school of thought that having action or conflict in place as early as possible maintains the reader's attention and keeps them moving from chapter to chapter... not every chapter may need it, but certainly at or near the start you should have something to grab their attention and build the compelling curiosity/urgent need to keep turning the pages. The longer you keep them hooked, the more chance you have of winning them over and getting them to finish your book instead of discarding it for something more exciting/interesting/with a brighter cover/etc...

For my works I always try to have an action sequence in the Prologue or First Chapter, and when I've written something without it I'd always go back and rewrite based on the beta readers experience. However, it's all a learning process and as each book (or chapter) is written you do gain deeper understanding in refining the craft and style required to make a book compelling.

(DISCLAIMER: I've been writing books for the last ten or so years, but have only just started publishing in the last six months -- so my advice should be taken with a grain of salt!)

Edited to Add:
As one of the posters said above, some of the best advice you can get is to go back and look at your favourite books and study how the author made it compelling for you to keep turning the page. Read a few more books in your genre and get a feel for the different approaches used by those authors to kick off the book.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

I don't know about sci-fi, but I definitely know in fantasy, you need to draw the reader into your world and its characters as soon as possible. It doesn't have to be some uber battle or anything. It needs to be something that will make the reader want to keep turning the page to see what happens next. The first chapter is critical in getting the reader's attention.

Too much buildup and it loses its power to capture a reader, and the story gets long, drawn-out and boring.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> Fiction does not use empty lines between paragraphs, but indents the first line of the paragraph by about 5mm. This is a pretty non-flexible rule.


Can I pick up on this, since it is also part of the OP's question.

I am aware of this, and that is how I format, but the last few fiction ebooks I've read had both spaces as well as indents. I find that horribly distracting, especially when the paragraphs are short, but I've started to wonder if this was a new trend. Is this, indeed, a "rule"? I know Smashwords makes a point of noting it somewhere.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Quiss said:


> Can I pick up on this, since it is also part of the OP's question.
> 
> I am aware of this, and that is how I format, but the last few fiction ebooks I've read had both spaces as well as indents. I find that horribly distracting, especially when the paragraphs are short, but I've started to wonder if this was a new trend. Is this, indeed, a "rule"? I know Smashwords makes a point of noting it somewhere.


Nope.

It's a goof-up.

There should be either empty lines (non-fiction) or indents (fiction).


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I think people worry too much about forcing ACTION to the front of the book. It just has to be interesting in some way. Now, typically, backstory isn't all that interesting, even when it's interesting. As long as the character is doing something, trying to acomplish something that's interesting, then most readers will give it a chance. So, it's simple, just be interesting.


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## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

JHall said:


> Well, perhaps I have some sort of conflict right away. In the first chapter, the protagonist pre-orders his NID (the device that allows him to enter the virtual game world) so that he would be guaranteed to have it on time for the launch of Forever Realms (the flagship title of the NID). Unfortunately, something goes wrong and he does not get in time. In fact, it is not until a week later (after having contacted the customer support) that he gets the NID. So, instead of getting a headstart like he had wanted, he gets a late start. And then, not a week after he has been able to play the game, he gets mugged. In the fourth chapter, it is explained that the mugging has made it impossible for him to play the game for more than tiny sessions each day (for reasons also explained in that chapter).
> 
> Would that be considered conflict? And in the story, the character is reading forum post (essentially the news) about building tensions between the the Lyhytkansa (the player race that the North Americans are locked in to player, basically halflings who inhabit a plains-type area) and the Korkeakansa (South Koreans, who inhabit a great forest). Essentially, a warmonger came in to power over the largest guild in the North American side of things, and sees this as an opportunity to get much needed lumber (the NA players had obliterated almost all of the tiny bit of wood that was available in their plains). So, he convinces the North Americans that they need to attack the South Koreans because the South Koreans had been raiding North American player settlements.
> 
> ...


What you are describing is plot. Right now, it makes no difference to me what happens. I'm not a gamer and the following facts mean little to me: 1. he orders something for gaming; 2. It comes late; 3. He gets mugged 4. the result of the mugging means that he can't play much.

Why should I care? To make me care about something that I have little basic interest in, you have to give me a character I can relate to, make me empathize with him or her. Then I can accept his/her interests as valid.

So ask yourself the following questions: Why does your character want to play this game? What rewards are in it for him? How can someone who doesn't play these games relate? What is the result if he is unable to play? [What are the stakes?]

* * *
example: John is in a wheelchair. He sees others doing things that he can't do, will probably never be able to do. Every day he sees people looking at him with pity, or avoiding him because of his handicap. He hates the pity, and the prejudging of who he is by his situation angers him. Life, he thinks, just isn't fair. But today none of that bothers him. He wheels down the sidewalk, not noticing what he usually notices about the looks others give him. He has just received word that the launch date for Forever Realms has been posted and that, better, he can order his NID, get it early and thus be prepared for the launch.

In virtual games, no one knows of his lack of mobility. He is who he dreams he can be. People react to him for what's in his brain, what he types in the forums, his expression of his being, not the physical limitations the [accident/birth defect/disease] has placed on his body. In the Virtual Reality of games like Forever Realm he can LIVE!

* * *

See, in this example, I can get interested in John. He has limitations -- as do we all. His manifest in a more pronounced way, as he's confined to a wheelchair and he can only dream of doing things beyond what his body is capable of. I can relate because although I have no such impairment, I might have dreams of being a top athlete, which I know I'll never be. I, too, have dreams which will never come about.

The fact that he hates the pity -- and that the avoidance by others angers him -- shows that he has not accepted what he is, that he has low self esteem. If he knew his own worth, then he'd have pity for those that avoided him, and just shrug off the pity of those who are ignorant. We all have self-esteem issues of one sort or another, so I can relate.

The gaming world allows him to bypass all this. Now I wonder who the 'unleashed' John will be? What does he really think of himself/dream of himself? I can understand his wanting to be prepared to show 'his best face', when the launch comes, for who among us doesn't want that? Thus, I can get interested in the game for the effect it will have on the character I've come to have interest in. Every obstacle that comes his way will affect him negatively, and I'll feel for him. And thus you'll suck me into a gaming world that I really have no interest in, because the character I like has interest in the game. I'm interested in how the game will change him, allow him to realize in his 'real life' he has worth and thus allow him to regain his self-esteem.

Now you say your character is unlikeable. We can play it that way, too. He wants the extra time for the purpose of lording it over others (kinda cheating), instead of building a shattered self-esteem. Now, I'll be happy when each of these obstacles come up and will be interested in how he overcomes these obstacles, and whether he'll learn from them and become a better person.

BUT I'm interested in the characters, not the plot as such. I want to know how they react, their emotions. The plot provides a vehicle for the characters to change or not change.

When you say your guy is only able to play a little at a time due to the mugging, that really means little without the motives behind playing and what he's willing to do get around the problem. Let's say that a doctor warns him that due to injury to his neck he can't sit and stare at a computer screen for long periods of time without risking further damage/longer healing time/pain. He has to keep moving -- physical therapy. Now you have the conflict between him wanting to sit down and play the game and wanting to regain his mobility. That's good conflict. Will his desire to play the game win out over his health and, if so, what will it cost him. Is he willing to pay the cost? If he decides to follow the doctor's orders, what will THAT cost him. How necessary is it for him to play the game? What damage will he incur to his hopes/dreams/other if he doesn't put in the requisite time in front of the screen?

Does he have friends/parents/girlfriend who argue with him about the screen time -- in what they consider to be his best interest? That's conflict. What they believe his best interest may not be what he believes it to be. What are the costs in this conflict? Will his girlfriend leave him? Will he lose his friends, alienate his parents? If they do stop him, will that alienate his on-line friends/colleagues/fellow players? Will they -- if they are part of a team -- be pushing him to play longer, arguing with him over his commitment. That's conflict. He's in the middle, with some pushing and some pulling at him.

What you've described to us is generic. Anyone could fill the role of protagonist. If anyone can fill the role, it's not really interesting. With respect to the plot of the North Americans, Koreans, etc. that's not conflict. It is if he sees something, wants one group to do something, and others in the that group disagree with his analysis/idea and try to prevent him from carrying out his plan.

You can put conflict into almost anything, but almost anything isn't conflict. I want to cross the street. No conflict. I'm going to jaywalk to cross the street. No conflict. My friend says we should cross at the crosswalk instead. Now we have conflict. I want to do something and someone is trying to prevent me from attaining my goal.

Me crossing the street isn't interesting to anyone. Me arguing with a friend about jaywalking can be interesting. What will happen to our relationship if I win the argument, if I lose? [What are the stakes?] So, what happens to your character if he convinces the NA players to do as he suggests? What will happen if he's wrong in his suggestion -- in other words, _what are the stakes_? Is he gambling on being correct? What could go wrong? These things raise the tension, but conflict is basically a disagreement between two sides (which could be incorporated in one person).


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

My best suggestion is to look for some free resources about fiction writing. Here is one I used when I was just starting out over a decade ago: http://www.fictionfactor.com/articles.html. But there are others out there, too.

Also go to your library and see what writing books they have. If they have few or none, look online for some (like at Amazon) and take in your list. They can look into ordering a library book for you.

You don't have to stop writing to study, though. But just be prepared, though, that if this is more than a hobby, you will put in a lot of work. That may equate to a lot of years, too (especially if you subscribe to the belief that 10,000 hours = professional/expert). But if the writing bug has bitten you, it will be worth it.

Jodi


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

JHall said:


> Ah, I don't mean to give the impression I'm stressing over it. I plan to write this how I please no matter what feedback I get (if it's something that makes sense to me and fits with the image I have in my head of what this novel will be like, I will use the feedback).


Books are not games. You should start with the mugging, that's where your story starts. A common mistake beginning novelists make is not recognizing they may need to write themselves into the story, but the reader will not appreciate that info dump, it's not the story.

If you do, you'll get plenty of one star reviews such as "this sucks" "I got up to chapter three and nothing happens." You said you feel this way, so your readers will too. They're not dumb, they pick up on this stuff.

The biggest mistake I've seen from gamers that try write books, is they write it like a game. They introduce characters that are not necessary to the plot and will never be heard from again, go off on too many red herrings, have way too many sub plots so the "story" gets lost, leaving the reader unsatisfied and confused.

Make sure you have an over riding story arc and every scene drives the story forward. Throw out those first three chapters and start with the mugging find your conflict. It doesn't have to be action, it can be emotional, but it has to be there. Intersperse back story as needed, sprinkled in lightly. Good luck.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Brad__W said:


> I'm of the school of thought that having action or conflict in place as early as possible maintains the reader's attention and keeps them moving from chapter to chapter... not every chapter may need it, but certainly at or near the start you should have something to grab their attention and build the compelling curiosity/urgent need to keep turning the pages.


To add to this point: According to Donald Maass, a literary agent and an author of writing books, tension needs to be in every page. But that does not mean action as the action movie or books define it (though it can be that). Maass says it best. Google his name and the concept. Here are a few articles that bring it up:


http://victoriamixon.com/2010/06/05/tension-on-every-pagethe-donald-maass-lisa-rector-interview/ (scroll down to "Oh, nice! Like Graham Greene's The Third Man")
http://www.novelrocket.com/2012/12/donald-maass-on-micro-tension-and.html
http://www.liakeyes.com/editorial/interview-agent-donald-maass/

Jodi


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## Jonathan C. Gillespie (Aug 9, 2012)

JHall said:


> I am new to fiction writing, and I am looking for some advice/opinions on about how I should go about this.


Welcome to the jungle. We have fun and games. 



> I am working on writing a a full-length sci-fi/fantasy novel mix. It is aimed at gamers (I am Game Journalist/Reviewer), so there is the "out-of-game" side of things(Sci-fi), and the "in-game" side(Fantasy). So far I have written four chapters (plus a very bad prologue), which comes out to around 22,000 words.


Kill the prologue. They're generally not needed and often cause more problems than they are worth. "Cold starts" don't work in fiction, or at least not often.



> Right now, my biggest questions are: There is basically no conflict until the very end of the third chapter, and that conflict consist of the protagonist being mugged. Is this OK for a sci-fi/fantasy novel?


No. It's a common mistake of beginners. Start things blazing. You have absolutely got to grab your reader's attention _right now_. This doesn't have to be something as overt as a street fight or alien invasion, but in spec fiction you need something to grab the reader's attention quickly. This can be as simple as intriguing them; giving them the impression that something is profoundly different in the book's universe, and they are going to have to keep reading to find out why.



> Other than that, is it alright if my protagonist starts out as someone that the reader wont like? I've shown the story to someone I know, and some of the feedback he gave me said he thought that the protagonist wasn't a very good character. Sense then, I have tried to expand his 'personality' a bit so that the reader can get to know him better, but he's still the same guy.


Villains can and do work, but they can't be one-sided. The key is that even your darkest of characters should still be sympathetic. It doesn't matter how bad--or even twisted--your protag is. As long as your audience can relate to them and put themselves into your character's shoes, you're golden. If you are writing a dark character, remember that (outside of psychopaths) people almost always believe that what they are doing is for the best. Some of history's most effective malevolent rulers believed deeply that they were simply making omelets out of all those eggs.



> And my last question (for now) has to do with formatting. I enjoy reading books that have spaces between paragraphs. Because of this, when I write, I have spaces between my paragraphs. Is this something I should change? I am aware that the "traditional" way to do it is to have no spacing between paragraphs. To clarify, I have indention's and spaces between paragraphs.


A standard hanging indent of .5" off the first line (set in Word) is fine for each paragraph. A space between paragraphs? Don't do it. That just causes problems when your editor and\or book formatter will inevitably have to fix it.



> If you would be willing to provide feedback, please feel free to visit the blog that I created for the sole purpose of getting feedback. Please be aware that the formatting used on the blog is lacking indention as they wont carry over when I copy/paste the writing from my Word doc. Also, this probably isn't the place to ask for advice on writing (or is it?), but I have been searching high and low and have yet to find a decent, active forum where people can post their stuff and get feedback.


Check out critters.org. It's great if you're starting out.

Good luck. You can do this. But prepare for the time investment. I've spent ten years on this already.

Also: read. A lot.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2013)

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> A standard hanging indent of .5" off the first line (set in Word) is fine for each paragraph.


A lot of people here go by .25 or .3, at least last time I checked. I started going by .3 and it looks better to me than my old way too.


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## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Books are not games. You should start with the mugging, that's where your story starts. A common mistake beginning novelists make is not recognizing they may need to write themselves into the story, but the reader will not appreciate that info dump, it's not the story.
> 
> If you do, you'll get plenty of one star reviews such as "this sucks" "I got up to chapter three and nothing happens." You said you feel this way, so your readers will too. They're not dumb, they pick up on this stuff.
> 
> ...


I am going to do just this. It makes so much sense to do it this way, and it makes for an even interesting story (for myself and for anyone that reads it). I will begin re-writing tonight, and hopefully come up with something much better this time around.



Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> Check out critters.org. It's great if you're starting out.
> 
> Good luck. You can do this. But prepare for the time investment. I've spent ten years on this already.
> 
> Also: read. A lot.


Thank you for the link. I already read a lot. Unfortunately, I guess I've never really paid much attention to what exactly it was that made me love my favorite fiction novels. I will have to do what others have suggested and go back to my favorites and see what made them great.


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## merryxmas (Jun 21, 2012)

Steve Vernon said:


> Readers today are impatient. Cut to the chase and get on with it. Nobody ever moaned about a story that was TOO exciting.


I know what you mean but that's not really true. On an episode of Writing Excuses Howard talks about reading a Dean Koontz book called Intensity where he said the book was so non-stop full of, ...well intensity, that it was too much and he abandoned it before finishing. Even for thrillers whose backbone is made of heart pounding excitement you need to let the tension out somewhere and sometimes before going back into the fray.


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## J Dean (Feb 9, 2009)

If the conflict comes later, make sure your setup (the first part) is engaging.  Or, if you can, hint at what's coming somehow.  Not too much, but give a sliver of "something's not right" if possible.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2013)

Well, since I publish BOTH fiction and roleplaying games, I am probably in a better position to offer some advice (though still feel free to ignore me lol)

What works in an RPG does NOT generally translate well to fiction. Games tend to often rely on "what do the rules let me do?" instead of "what is the logical course of events?" Anyone who has gamed for a significant amount of time has dealt with "that guy" who decides to pick pocket the King not because it serves any purpose, but because he has +16 ranks in Sleight of Hand and figures he can get away with it. Or the guy who just intimidates the guard instead of trying to use diplomacy because he is level 12 and can wipe the floor with the generic level 3 NPC guard.

The most important this is not to immediately jump to ACTION per se. The most important thing is to immediate engage the reader. As a reader, it doesn't matter to me if you character gets mugged or is fighting a dragon unless I care about the character one way or the other in the first place. I either need to care about the character's well being OR want to see him get what is coming to him. I don't have to like him. It's OK if I despise him if fact, so long as I despise him enough that I can't wait to see him ripped to shreads by the roaming band of trolls! 

All that said, don't try to edit as you write. You will never finish the book. Get the damn thing down on paper. Then put it away for a month. Come back to it, and read it with fresh eyes. Then edit out everything that does not relate to the story you are trying to tell. As Lisa noted, sometimes we gamers get too smart for our own good and we throw in NPCs that serve no purpose or plant false leads as if we are trying to string along players. Go back and pull out the stuff that either A. does not relate to the plot B. does not relate to character development and C. does not relate to world building. If it doesn't move forward the plot, build the character, or create a sense of place, get rid of it.

Then put it away again for a week or two. Now go back and see what you are missing. Where is the character development weak? Where is the world building too thin? 

This is the best way I have found to handle it. If you try to "fix" it while you are writing it, you just get in your own way.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> the guy who just intimidates the guard instead of trying to use diplomacy


This can be appropriate depending on the character though.


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## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

I just finished re-writing the first chapter. It's basically a Frankenstein of some key parts of the other four chapters I had written. Now, the mugging happens on the second page of the first chapter, rather than the last page of the third chapter. I like it better this way. Now to re-write the rest (I will probably continue to cannibalize other parts of the story).


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## Jonathan C. Gillespie (Aug 9, 2012)

JHall said:


> I just finished re-writing the first chapter. It's basically a Frankenstein of some key parts of the other four chapters I had written. Now, the mugging happens on the second page of the first chapter, rather than the last page of the third chapter. I like it better this way. Now to re-write the rest (I will probably continue to cannibalize other parts of the story).


FYI -- be careful about posting this sucker online on a blog, or anything like that. I don't know if you're going the trad route or not, but if you do, they'll generally consider that as the first publication.


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## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> FYI -- be careful about posting this sucker online on a blog, or anything like that. I don't know if you're going the trad route or not, but if you do, they'll generally consider that as the first publication.


I only plan to put the first three chapters up for anyone to see. Would that be an issue? The rest will be shared privately if I need feedback/critiquing.

About this Critters thing. I signed up, but all of the stories I see are 6k words or less. Is this specifically for short stories? Or are these people breaking down their longer works in to shorter bites (I honestly only read one of them yet. Plan to when I wake up in a few hours)?


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

One thing to keep in mind when deciding how to start is how long you have to hook your reader. The Look Inside preview is, I believe, 10% of the entire piece. So unless your story is over 220,000 words, your potential readers aren't going to get to even see where the story actually starts.

However long that 10% works out to be, the one thing you have to do in it is make your potential reader care enough to become your actual reader. There is no one way to make a reader care - appeal to their emotions, appeal to their sense of curiosity, appeal to their sense of schaden freude, etc. - but make sure you do it in that 10%, or you won't get many people reading your book. And the ones who buy without looking inside will likely be ticked off when they read the story and it doesn't even get started until almost a quarter of the book is has gone by.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Conflict can be anything, btw.

It doesn't have to be the main plot line. It can be an aside.

But as a general rule, you want to start with some kind of tension within the first short bit of a novel.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Most big publishers stopped caring about first publication eons ago. I've looked at guidelines for submission for many open submission periods, and I haven't come across one where it's been a problem to submit after you've self-published the whole book.


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

Write your story to the end. Only then will you have any clue where to start it.


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## cekilgore (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm going to disagree with several people here (and yes, I expect the typical KB flogging for it  )

I don't think you should cut your story to start right at the mugging or dump the reader directly into an action scene unless you are setting the tone up for the rest of the book to be hard-hitting and able to keep up that pace.

As a reader, I hate being dumped directly into an action scene right off the bat, except in the very rare instances where it is done well with out being confusing. This is especially true for Sci Fi and Fantasy that requires world-building and explanation. if your book is taking place in some distant galaxy or alternate world, for example, you should ease the reader into it gently, avoid info dumps and BAM action scenes where the reader is trying to figure out what all is going on suddenly and, at the same time, trying to visualize the world it's taking place in.

As a writer, I recommend writing your story how you are comfortable writing. Asking for advice on how to write your story will get you two hundred different answers from two hundred different people. *Prologues are not pointless*, in fact I think they are a lost art-form that are perfect for setting up the tone of your book for the reader and giving them a gentle push into the shallow end of your universe before dunking their head under water, like many books seem to do these days in chapter 1 in an attempt to grab readers who may have short attention spans.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

None of us said you should drop the reader into an action scene. In fact, you should not do that. But you should cut any telling and backstory. Make us care about the character, but don't force-feed the reader his life history and that of his girlfriend, and while we're at it, the history of the last 200 years of the country.


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## antares (Feb 13, 2011)

kurzon said:


> (T)his is the first novel you've ever written. Stop stressing over it. Write whatever you d*mn well want, put it in a drawer for a few months, and then re-read it. You'll learn more from doing that than you ever will agonising over whether you're starting it correctly.


I second this recommendation.

The best advice for wannabe writers: http://www.jerrypournelle.com/slowchange/myjob.html


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

Lots of advice on ths thread. The most credible is the shortest post (other than this one). Learn from the people who ae actually selling books.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Jonathan C. Gillespie (Aug 9, 2012)

The only reason I'm telling him to avoid prologues is because they are a trap for beginners and I seldom see them done right. Spare me from yet another fantasy novel with three opening chapters of life in some magic-influenced village.

YMMV.


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## Jonathan C. Gillespie (Aug 9, 2012)

JHall said:


> I only plan to put the first three chapters up for anyone to see. Would that be an issue? The rest will be shared privately if I need feedback/critiquing.
> 
> About this Critters thing. I signed up, but all of the stories I see are 6k words or less. Is this specifically for short stories? Or are these people breaking down their longer works in to shorter bites (I honestly only read one of them yet. Plan to when I wake up in a few hours)?


They break them down into bits. Or they did when I was there, years ago.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

cekilgore said:


> This is especially true for Sci Fi and Fantasy that requires world-building and explanation.


I would note that this is a personal preference. I don't do a lot of explaining of my world, I just let it happen. It's not overly difficult to understand context from character reactions.

Now, there's readers who prefer one over the other, and readers who won't read loads of detail, or those who absolutely require it.

The important part is for people who are writing the stories to decide on where they are taking them, and in what matter, and then going about finding people who like that after publication.

Don't do what's not you just because someone else things that's what has to happen.

(But again, a bit of tension of some kind when you open is a positive thing. Doesn't need to be hardcore battle or death or anything. Can be being late for work.)


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## Katja (Jun 4, 2011)

JHall said:


> Would that be considered conflict? And in the story, the character is reading forum post (essentially the news) about building tensions between the the Lyhytkansa (the player race that the North Americans are locked in to player, basically halflings who inhabit a plains-type area) and the Korkeakansa (South Koreans, who inhabit a great forest).


Did you just google translate into Finnish something specific, or do you know or asked someone what the meaning is? It's just that I'm Finnish and find it a bit hilarious, that you've decided to make the NA ppl the "short people" and the SK ppl the "tall (well literally high, but with the world 'kansa' at the end, it doesn't translate exactly with that meaning) people".  Those names would be quite a bit of a distraction for me from the story (then again, I guess your readership doesn't necessarily contain that many Finns). If you had something else in mind for the meanings, I can help you out.


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## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

Katja said:


> Did you just google translate into Finnish something specific, or do you know or asked someone what the meaning is? It's just that I'm Finnish and find it a bit hilarious, that you've decided to make the NA ppl the "short people" and the SK ppl the "tall (well literally high, but with the world 'kansa' at the end, it doesn't translate exactly with that meaning) people".  Those names would be quite a bit of a distraction for me from the story (then again, I guess your readership doesn't necessarily contain that many Finns). If you had something else in mind for the meanings, I can help you out.


I use google translate, but I have a Finnish gaming buddy and I run all of the Finnish words I use through him first. I'm not trying to use 100% accurate Finnish, either. Short folk (or people) and Tall folk (or people) is what I was going for when I used those translations. I also have a god in the book that is called Henkipuu which is supposed to translate in to something like Spirit Tree (he is a god of nature). I also use the word sielu. My intended reader base are English speakers. If you don't mind me coming to you in the future, as I know I will be using more Finnish words in the book, that would be great.


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## Katja (Jun 4, 2011)

JHall said:


> I also have a god in the book that is called Henkipuu which is supposed to translate in to something like Spirit Tree (he is a god of nature). I also use the word sielu. My intended reader base are English speakers.


Henkipuu is indeed the best word for that purpose. And sielu is literally the soul. 



JHall said:


> If you don't mind me coming to you in the future, as I know I will be using more Finnish words in the book, that would be great.


Sure, I'm glad to help.  Just toss a message, if you need to check something.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Throwing my opinion in, which agrees with several others on this thread.


Keep it interesting (character or world building, intrigue, tension, action... all of these can be interesting, it doesn't always have to be conflict)
Don't break accepted formatting and/or grammar conventions/rules UNLESS you have a valid reason to do so (I like it better that way isn't really a good reason when it comes to grammar and formatting)
There are no "rules" when it comes to writing, just accepted convention and expectations. Again, break them if there is a valid reason to do so.
Write the way that YOU find pleasing. If others like it, you will be able to do it again and again with relative ease.
Expect that no matter what you do, there will be people who will ding you for it. That's just the way it is.
I'd get opinions from "non-writers" about your work before I'd seek critique from writers. You want to know, above all else, if your story is engaging. Writer's tend to notice the little things that many readers do not.
Expect that your style will change over time. One of the great things about digital publishing is that you can see what works for your readers based on their reviews and emails. As long as you are willing to change and adapt as you see fit, your success (monetary) should only increase over time.


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## J. W. Rolfe (Oct 21, 2012)

Writing sci-fi can be very difficult when it comes to introducing readers to the world which you have created. I remember how I rewrote my entire opening because it was too much backstory. I often found the best way to draw readers into the novel ws to do your backgrounds through dialogue and do it one small spoonful at a time. 

The other tip I can give is to really focus on those characters. Speaking for me personally, I care a lot more about the characters than I do the plot. I prefer to see both, but I have to have that connection.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well, since I publish BOTH fiction and roleplaying games, I am probably in a better position to offer some advice (though still feel free to ignore me lol)
> 
> What works in an RPG does NOT generally translate well to fiction. Games tend to often rely on "what do the rules let me do?" instead of "what is the logical course of events?" Anyone who has gamed for a significant amount of time has dealt with "that guy" who decides to pick pocket the King not because it serves any purpose, but because he has +16 ranks in Sleight of Hand and figures he can get away with it. Or the guy who just intimidates the guard instead of trying to use diplomacy because he is level 12 and can wipe the floor with the generic level 3 NPC guard.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Imitating games leads to bad fiction. The two mediums are different. Characters are more than stats and special effects. There are thousands of writers producing RPG novels on spec, but only a handful are famous, and most of them ignore the game mechanics. I love RPG fans who debate the mechanics of R.A. Salvator's work 

Once I've figured out your class and level system, I start skipping all those 5 page action scenes. What, you're telling me the 12 NPCs are going to kill the main character, who is clearly a few levels above them? Not likely. He's a god with special gear and moves and they don't even have names. So I skim, and skim, and skim, and there is that other named villain who might be a challenge, but of course he isn't.

That's when most writers lose me and I abandon a series.

Games lack real conflict. They provide minor obstacles for players to overcome. A good story has consequences, not advancement.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> Write your story to the end. Only then will you have any clue where to start it.


This is great advice as well. I realized in the third act of a novel that my it worked better with a love interest. So I had to rewrite the first two acts to make that work. I ended up adding several characters and tossing most of the first draft.

Finish the first draft. That is your book idea fleshed out.

Then get other writers to critique it for you, or find a content editor. They'll give you the feedback you need about pacing, subplots and character arcs. Family and friends who don't write won't know what to look for.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

J. W. Rolfe said:


> Writing sci-fi can be very difficult when it comes to introducing readers to the world which you have created. I remember how I rewrote my entire opening because it was too much backstory. I often found the best way to draw readers into the novel ws to do your backgrounds through dialogue and do it one small spoonful at a time.
> 
> The other tip I can give is to really focus on those characters. Speaking for me personally, I care a lot more about the characters than I do the plot. I prefer to see both, but I have to have that connection.


Something strange that I found helpful was nonfiction historical novels. People who write about Julius Caesar or Al Capone do the same world building, and you can get a sense of relevant detail and when to introduce it. The books have to be more like novels, Capote's In Cold Blood, that style.

But stepping out of the genre stuff, into a different kind of world building, helped me see the technique better. Then when you reread the genre stuff you can see the minimalist approach of a Joe Ambercrombie versus the detailed approach of a George Martin better.

Here's some examples . . .

http://www.amazon.com/Cold-Blood-Truman-Capote/dp/0679745580

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Hawk-Down-Story-Modern/dp/080214473X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1362865848&sr=1-1&keywords=black+hawk+down

http://www.amazon.com/Gallic-War-Civil-Illustrated-ebook/dp/B004S332FA/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1362865871&sr=1-3&keywords=caesar

The real life stuff also expands your ideas for genre fiction. There's a brilliant scene in Black Hawk Down where the biggest, strongest, delta force guy takes a random bullet. He wasn't supposed to die, and it demoralizes everyone. I've never seen that in a genre book. The level 20 warrior never takes an arrow to the face


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Sorry to overpost in this thread. 

Doing some world building this weekend, and its nice to read about it from other writers.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks for all the tips, everyone.


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## JHall (Mar 7, 2013)

The more I think about it, I am thinking that this story may work out better as a series of novellas. Does anyone have any experience with that or relevant links? I feel it would be a better experience if I concentrated on more contained stories, rather than working on orchestrating some epic 300+ page tale right out the gate.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

You really need to start with something exciting and where something is at stake (the mugging, his well being).

Anything else is likely to be too slow a read.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> What works in an RPG does NOT generally translate well to fiction.


An RPG need only be interested to the five or six people seated at the table. Even if everyone else thinks it's crap, if it accomplishes that it's a resounding success. But follow that standard, and you'll get five or six readers. And you'll have worked hundreds or thousands of hours to get them.


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