# How are the Erotica Authors doing?



## skyle (Oct 13, 2014)

Redacted


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

I'm new to this forum and I write erotic romance, not just erotica.

I had a good Dec and Jan (for me). 

Tried KU with one of my titles and I have 1 borrow vs 2 sales (3 weeks into KU). 

I think the more titles you have, the more likely you are to be discovered and that leads to success. That is probably true about all genres, not just erotica.

Some of the erotica authors have FB groups but I think most are busy writing.

I wasn't big on marketing last year. Okay, I didn't really do any marketing last year. This year, I'm reading, learning and forming marketing strategies along with writing.


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## skyle (Oct 13, 2014)

Redacted


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Doesn't hurt, though it sounds like you're doing fine.

There are some inexpensive ones that I'm trying out.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I was doing great from Dec-this week, when sales took a dive, but I also didn't publish this week because I published a thriller instead. Because I want some time to work in other genres I've decided to start putting out books of multiple shorts to command a higher price and maybe not have to be quite so prolific. I'm just now finishing my first one, so I can't say how that's going to work out yet.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

16 in erotica. At first I wanted to give up. When I published my 10th one I said this is it. If I don't get a response I quit because I must suck. It was a short bdsm. I gave it a way for free with a bknights add and got like 20 borrows that day. After that it kept selling steady everyday and people finally started borrowing my other stuff and signing up for my mailing list. I still have a long way to go before I'm where I want to be, but I can see I stand a good chance of getting there now. I highly recommend a free bknights ad for 5.50. I wanted to add it doesn't work as well for thrillers, but I'm spicing my new thriller up with sex scenes to see if that helps.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

judygoodwin said:


> I only have 5 titles in erotica and I'm consistently making about $40 or more from them per month. So your numbers sound comparable. Yes, more titles, and I understand a more regular publishing schedule also helps. One last thing to consider are serials. I'm working on one right now, that I'll be releasing on a regular schedule once half the serial is done.
> 
> The Naughty List is an excellent option for advertising Countdown sales--only costs $5.00.


I always hear about the naughty list but for some reason I can't find it. Do you have a link?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Oh, about the 30 titles, the dirty thirty is supposed to be around when the erotica author sees a huge jump so you could well see more than 400, although some are saying it might take more now. There's more competition than there used to be, I guess. Then again, some say it can happen even faster because of KU. This is what I've heard most authors say. I'm still working towards 30, so I'll let you know in a couple of months.


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## Eric S. Kim (Oct 22, 2014)

I'm currently on my way to publishing my second m/m erotica short. I'm hoping I'll publish twenty more by the end of this year. I don't know how long it'll take before I make over a hundred dollars a month, but I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Each book can blast the gates. Make sure you're getting closer to the target each time - sales will tell you. If you're not getting closer, you have to fix your aim.


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## SomethingElse (May 29, 2014)

I have 9 titles up so far. December was horrible for me and February hasn't been great. Usually I make around $30 a month with them. One of the titles has been up since December last year and hasn't sold a single copy and it's only had one borrow. I put one up the beginning of February and that hasn't sold anything either. They're my only first person titles. I don't know if that has anything to do with the no sales, I thought first person in erotica sold well.

I'm enjoying writing them but I do hope sales pick up. I have actually planned out a total of 50 titles so we'll see how long it takes me to get them all done.


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## joebananas (Nov 3, 2014)

This will be my first full month publishing erotica. I had my first story go live the end of January so I only made $4.84 in that month.

So far this month I'm up to 12 stories and 2 bundles live with 1 story and 1 more bundle in review and I've broken $160 so far with four and a half more days to go this month. With a little luck I hope to break $200.

I still don't have any idea what I am doing and just winging it by myself and trying to figure out what's working and what isn't.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Hey Max,
I was just thinking of you.    Congrats on moving up.


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

So far I've published 16 titles, 15 short stories and a novella. I'm making roughly $300-$400 each month. February is slow, but that's my own fault because I was struggling with some health issues and other work-related stuff and didn't manage to upload anything in January and February. I'm going to hit publish on my 17th story either tonight or tomorrow morning. 

I'm really happy with how things are moving along.


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## naughty kim (Dec 18, 2014)

54 titles since Oct 2014 (BDSM, Fetish) and avg about $2000 a month.  Key is to decide what genre you want to concentrate on and then stick to it; at least 4 shorts a month (my best was 14 in one month).  And you have to stay in KU.  KU is a must for us.


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## naughty kim (Dec 18, 2014)

Additionally, you may wish to check out the following thread. I found it to be very inspirational, as well as full of great advice.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,162157.0.html

Best of luck!


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Wow. I had my first book for free and it was about 20K words and I had a complaint that it was too short! I guess if that's the only thing they could find wrong with it, I will take it.

Then I see books shorter than mine selling for $2.99-$3.99 and nobody complains about the price. 

I write erotic romances and tend to run 18K-40K. I just can't seem to write short (3K-5K) word shorts. I just keep adding and adding until it's complete.

I am experimenting with price points and marketing this year. 

KU has not been good to me, but I guess it's because I only have one instead of all 7 in KU and it's been for a short time.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Diana,
Price them all $2.99 and I think you will sell better.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

Maximillion -- Congrats! Great point about serving a niche and creating a quality product. 

I make far more with KU than sales and broke $500 my first full month in erotica. I average about two releases a week, including bundles. This month has been slower than I expected so I'm creating two new series. 

BTW, I do no marketing -- no website, no social networking, no announcements.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

judygoodwin said:


> http://www.naughtylistbooks.com/
> 
> And serials are like series, except they're more episodic, like a TV show. They join together to form a complete storyline.


I just started writing erotica as well, with some paranormal romances under another pen name. It was thanks to that 7 Day Erotica thread that I decided to give it a try. I've had some downloads on my first title, and I'm writing the second. I'm guessing more titles, more sales and borrows. But here's my question, I want to try a Kindle Countdown sale, but it says I have to wait until 30 days after I first publish. I'm almost to that. Would it be better to have all 3 shorts in the series done, and then do the sale? I want to eventually have 3 short stories in a series, and then box them into a set too. Then, with a countdown deal I'd want to list it with the Naughty List.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Diana,
> Price them all $2.99 and I think you will sell better.


Over Xmas I had them priced at $2.99 or higher and they sold very well. Then in Feb, there were zero sales for about a week. I did a free promo and dropped the prices to see if it would help and it's picked up slowly.

Had a Fussy Librarian promo today and it's depressing. I had more sales with my free promo two weeks ago. I should have saved my $10. Live and Learn.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

I gather taboo sells really well. I have read that some authors write what's currently hot. I don't think I can. I write what my characters tell me to  I'd hate to try my hand at taboo and have it flop. I suppose I could try another pen name, but I have so many other stories I need to finish right now. Will have to think about that.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I've got 5 titles up and one bundle. I released them in October and have written no more since then because I've been focussing on a romance series which I've found makes much more money but might write some more between the romances. Just having the titles sitting there with me doing nothing, I make $20-30 a month. I made around $70 the first month.

I do have a 1 star review on one of my titles saying the plot is predictable!!! It's porn - I'm not sure what they were expecting to happen.


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## twotoomany (Jan 22, 2015)

I write Erom primarily. On average, I make just over $1000 per month. I have 16 titles out. (Shorts and novellas) I have 3 anthologies. Most of mine sell for 99 cents. The others are 2.99+. All are in KU. I have 3 series going and several targeting specific niches, none taboo. My marketing strategy is via my social media sites, Risquelibrarian, and Naughtylist. I started writing Erom in October as part of the challenge here.

Good Luck!


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## Error404 (Sep 6, 2012)

naughty kim said:


> 54 titles since Oct 2014 (BDSM, Fetish) and avg about $2000 a month. Key is to decide what genre you want to concentrate on and then stick to it; at least 4 shorts a month (my best was 14 in one month). And you have to stay in KU. KU is a must for us.


None of my books are in KU, and I'm on track to make three times more than your avg. It's thanks to a boost at Google and iTunes. Not sure how many titles I have (something like 100), and I try to put out a novella a week (20k words). Those are priced at $2.99 except for the first which is always free. My focus right now is the werewolf genre, and it's keeping money in the bank for me


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## JessieSnow (Jul 25, 2014)

9 titles out. Six under gay pen name, three under straight. They're linked. I make about $100 a month, maybe a little more.

I'm sure I could make more by writing more, but I discovered early on that erotica isn't my favorite genre. It's like a weekend party. I don't mind having fun with it once in a while, but my mistake was trying to turn it into a solid paycheck. I hate to publish irregularly, but I suppose it's better than not publishing at all. I've also decided to publish novellas from now on, instead of breaking stories into three shorts. I love perma-free, but I don't think I'm winning any favor with readers by taking forever to release parts two and three. That, and I'm sick of complaints (usually from readers who've read the perma-free book). You can't make everyone happy, but a couple free samples is plenty. At this point, I think I'd be doing myself a disservice by continuing to offer free books.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

kathrynoh said:


> I've got 5 titles up and one bundle. I released them in October and have written no more since then because I've been focussing on a romance series which I've found makes much more money but might write some more between the romances. Just having the titles sitting there with me doing nothing, I make $20-30 a month. I made around $70 the first month.
> 
> I do have a 1 star review on one of my titles saying the plot is predictable!!! It's porn - I'm not sure what they were expecting to happen.


Everytime I see you mention the success of your romance series, I want to know your pen name. Such secrets!


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

Do you guys know if you can have the word "wh*re" in your title on Amazon without being banished to Adult purgatory?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Jessie,
I grabbed your freebies.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Wishing I knew your pen names.


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## naughty kim (Dec 18, 2014)

Error404 said:


> None of my books are in KU, and I'm on track to make three times more than your avg. It's thanks to a boost at Google and iTunes. Not sure how many titles I have (something like 100), and I try to put out a novella a week (20k words). Those are priced at $2.99 except for the first which is always free. My focus right now is the werewolf genre, and it's keeping money in the bank for me


I'm on the same track as you are (I have 54 titles, you have at least 100), additionally, I have a boat load of stuff on Google and Nook (blocked by Amazon), so the amounts are essentially the same. By the time I get to 100 I should be making at least three times what I'm doing now. Unlike you, I have found that KU is a major contributor to my bottom line. As K Matthew posted recently, if she had to do it all over again, she would get her short erotica/ erotica romance in KU.

Keep on writing!


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## cebap (Dec 15, 2014)

I have 17-18 titles out. Made $730 in Jan, but I dropped the ball so I'm probably only looking at half of that for Feb.


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## GTC (Dec 18, 2013)

As you'll see if you read this, I have a rather amateurish approach to writing but nevertheless here's my little story. I published 19 shorts during October and November, and for the first couple of months I made $1000-1200 per month. Due to reasons (laziness), until this week I hadn't published anything since mid-November so January's income was down to $350. March is the month to get back on the horse!

Re the OP question, I personally didn't find that my income increased so straightforwardly as 'double the titles, double the income'. Instead I found that every now and then a newly released title would become a mini-hit, reaching pretty high in the charts and hanging around there bringing in most of my income for a while. I'd say that 3-4 titles in my catalogue are responsible for well over half of my income. And if only I'd done the basics and included backmatter, I could possibly have made more!

My problem now, aside from laziness, is that I keep trying my hand at longer erom but I'm just plain bad at it, so I get disillusioned and don't want to write anything at all. I'm just about decided that I'm going to limit my rude writing to shorts and experiment with some longer work in a different genre, but there's a couple of romance characters in my head that just won't leave me alone...


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Guys, if you're writing 10-15 books and don't break the $1000/mo, you might want to take a closer look at what really works and do your best to serve the similar product. Don't kill your wrists writing more of what doesn't work as well. Study, study, study. Target market, emotional thesaurus, sexual dictionary, porn.


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## legion (Mar 1, 2013)

skyle said:


> I know an awful lot of them moved to another forum when KB's banned signatures and links to erotica, but I assume there must still be a fair few around? And I just wondered how you're all doing, financially that is.
> 
> I started writing erotica in October as part of the 7 day challenge. Over October, Nov and Dec I put 15 titles out. I stopped writing it after Christmas and took a hiatus to finish a novel in another genre, but now that's finished I'm thinking of giving it another go for a while.
> 
> ...


I'm almost at 20 titles (including a few bundles), started about the same time due to that October 7-Day challenge, currently write erotica and erotic romance shorts, and have been making over $1000+ monthly on them since November (mostly borrows).
I'm up to 5 pen names, each representing a different flavor, but I'm trying to focus on the one that does best. Of the remaining four, three do fairly well, bringing in consistent numbers, and one's a big ol' flop. I learned a LOT as a result of that other forum.

No promo or discounts (yet), and the titles are mostly between 5 & 7k, priced 2.99, no exceptions. Bundles of 3 are a dollar more. 
I can't wait to see what happens when I hit that Dirty Thirty! I'm just halfway there if I don't count the bundles.

Also, I second what DGS just said.


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

DGS said:


> Guys, if you're writing 10-15 books and don't break the $1000/mo, you might want to take a closer look at what really works and do your best to serve the similar product. Don't kill your wrists writing more of what doesn't work as well. Study, study, study. Target market, emotional thesaurus, sexual dictionary, porn.


That's what I did. My first few stories were basically flops because they were much too vanilla. Once I started to focus on some of my favorite kinks and really went all out in that direction, plus tweaking my keywords and blurbs, things really started to take off. Of the 16 stories I've published, the eight really kinky ones (under two different pen-names) are the money-makers. I'm now focusing on that because that seems to be a niche I can serve well while I also having fun writing the stories.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

skyle said:


> Wouldnt risk it myself!


Thanks! *sigh* there goes my super catchy title.


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## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

DGS said:


> Each book can blast the gates. Make sure you're getting closer to the target each time - sales will tell you. If you're not getting closer, you have to fix your aim.


I agree with this post. I have eleven titles out, and the latest one is more than half of this months income, with more than 700 sales and KU borrows. I publish one every month or so, and have been averaging close to $2,000 per month, some months higher. I need to increase my production, but life keeps getting in the way. Keep writing and researching!


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

Drake said:


> I agree with this post. I have eleven titles out, and the latest one is more than half of this months income, with more than 700 sales and KU borrows. I publish one every month or so, and have been averaging close to $2,000 per month, some months higher. I need to increase my production, but life keeps getting in the way. Keep writing and researching!


This caught my attention. Publishing one erotic story a month seems so different compared to the cries of "publish, publish now, publish til you bleed!" Of putting out 1, 2, even 3 short stories a week that I've been seeing around the web lately. Are you writing longer works or can you just not be bothered to jump on the "pump 'me out before people get the chance to blink" train?


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## Error404 (Sep 6, 2012)

naughty kim said:


> I'm on the same track as you are (I have 54 titles, you have at least 100), additionally, I have a boat load of stuff on Google and Nook (blocked by Amazon), so the amounts are essentially the same. By the time I get to 100 I should be making at least three times what I'm doing now. Unlike you, I have found that KU is a major contributor to my bottom line. As K Matthew posted recently, if she had to do it all over again, she would get her short erotica/ erotica romance in KU.
> 
> Keep on writing!


3 times + more  (I was rounding and some of my titles are ancient by this time)


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## SomethingElse (May 29, 2014)

DGS said:


> Guys, if you're writing 10-15 books and don't break the $1000/mo, you might want to take a closer look at what really works and do your best to serve the similar product. Don't kill your wrists writing more of what doesn't work as well. Study, study, study. Target market, emotional thesaurus, sexual dictionary, porn.


Okay so I'm obviously doing something wrong because I have 9 titles up plus a bundle and I'm making less than $100 a month. I thought I was writing in niches that were popular. I have lots of other ideas for other series besides the ones I currently have up. Maybe it's my key words.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

twotoomany said:


> I write Erom primarily. On average, I make just over $1000 per month. I have 16 titles out. (Shorts and novellas) I have 3 anthologies. Most of mine sell for 99 cents. The others are 2.99+. All are in KU. I have 3 series going and several targeting specific niches, none taboo. My marketing strategy is via my social media sites, Risquelibrarian, and Naughtylist. I started writing Erom in October as part of the challenge here.
> 
> Good Luck!


Thanks for the tip. I have an ad with NL next month. If I see any boost from them, I will purchase another ad. 
I submitted one book to Risquelibrarian, but it's not up yet. 
I will definitely have to look at bundling and changing prices.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

skyle said:


> Do you really think so? Even if those 15 books are only 7k words each?


Let me put it this way: you should be able to make 1000/month off of 4 or 5 titles.

Before I changed up my kinks and listened to advice on the other forum, I made 1000/month from about 30 titles. After, it took me about 4 new titles to hit the same number.

Erom: 8-30k words
Erotica: 4-7k words, and 7k is on the high side. 5k is more standard.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Haha, I'm only on two titles, but off to a very slow start compared with pretty much everyone else


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## joebananas (Nov 3, 2014)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Before I changed up my kinks and listened to advice on the other forum, I made 1000/month from about 30 titles. After, it took me about 4 new titles to hit the same number.


What other forum? I am currently up to 11 titles and 3 bundles in one pen name and 1 in another that flopped terribly. This is pretty much my first month and I'm only sitting around $170 for this month. I haven't had any runaway hits but I do have a 5 and a 4 star rating on two books on Goodreads. I didn't even know about Goodreads until yesterday. So I know I could be doing better, but so far I'm chugging along and learning on my own.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Let me put it this way: you should be able to make 1000/month off of 4 or 5 titles.
> 
> Before I changed up my kinks and listened to advice on the other forum, I made 1000/month from about 30 titles. After, it took me about 4 new titles to hit the same number.
> 
> ...


I'm curious as well. Where is this other forum with all this sage erotica advice. Please PM me the details. Much thanks.


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## Tasha Black (May 28, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> I'm curious as well. Where is this other forum with all this sage erotica advice. Please PM me the details. Much thanks.


Me too! Me too!


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## SomethingElse (May 29, 2014)

I just joined that forum yesterday if it's the one I think you're talking about. Haven't waded in too far yet but I do have a huge post I intend to post tonight when I get home from work. Because I have a lot of questions. I know I should be doing better with 9 titles but I'm lucky if I earn $40 a month right now. I have one title that is PI that has sold nothing since I released it in December.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Let me put it this way: you should be able to make 1000/month off of 4 or 5 titles.
> 
> Before I changed up my kinks and listened to advice on the other forum, I made 1000/month from about 30 titles. After, it took me about 4 new titles to hit the same number.
> 
> ...


I bought Jade Scott's book on publishing erotica, but most of it was stuff I already knew. Not saying it didn't have some good advice, it's just most of it was common knowledge if you studied the market at all. It was still nice to have some of what I though I knew re-enforced by her, though. She does pretty well.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

SerenaBiggs said:


> I just joined that forum yesterday if it's the one I think you're talking about. Haven't waded in too far yet but I do have a huge post I intend to post tonight when I get home from work. Because I have a lot of questions. I know I should be doing better with 9 titles but I'm lucky if I earn $40 a month right now. I have one title that is PI that has sold nothing since I released it in December.


Hey, that's ok! I bet you're still doing better than a LOT of people out there. I'm a little nervous because I'm not really "chasing the trends", it was freezing me up and I couldn't even write my first story! So I'm a bit worried about how well I'm going to sell since I don't have any crazy BBW-billionaire-cyborg dog-BDSM-tentacle porn erotica stories. Seriously though, can you imagine trying to write that story? Just contemporary erotica. I think that I may have a good hook but it will either work well or sink like a rock to the bottom of the Amazonian sea, never to be seen again...

If I make $40 off of these stories I will literally week with joy.
Then take that $40 and go by a bottle of celebratory Scotch.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Hey, that's ok! I bet you're still doing better than a LOT of people out there. I'm a little nervous because I'm not really "chasing the trends", it was freezing me up and I couldn't even write my first story! So I'm a bit worried about how well I'm going to sell since I don't have any crazy BBW-billionaire-cyborg dog-BDSM-tentacle porn erotica stories. Seriously though, can you imagine trying to write that story? Just contemporary erotica. I think that I may have a good hook but it will either work well or sink like a rock to the bottom of the Amazonian sea, never to be seen again...
> 
> If I make $40 off of these stories I will literally week with joy.
> Then take that $40 and go by a bottle of celebratory Scotch.


I'm with you. I don't write to chase trends. I write what I like to read. I'm going to rethink some things though and see if I can't pull off a short story. I did one but it's a freebie I offer to subscribers.


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## Ampersand_56 (Mar 12, 2014)

Tasha Black said:


> Me too! Me too!


I'd also love to know the name of the other forum!


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Let me put it this way: you should be able to make 1000/month off of 4 or 5 titles.
> 
> Before I changed up my kinks and listened to advice on the other forum, I made 1000/month from about 30 titles. After, it took me about 4 new titles to hit the same number.


I'm presuming you switched to a more profitable kink? Did you have to alternate strategies to get visibility or did it take care of itself with the right keywords?


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Stephanie Marks said:


> I'm curious as well. Where is this other forum with all this sage erotica advice. Please PM me the details. Much thanks.


Me threes! I could use some sage advice. I've only been getting a few sales for my current ebook short. I'm about ready to publish my second in my groupie series, and will be adding sections and links to it in the first short.

I was wondering if I should add some more keywords to make it easier to find my story. I was wondering how much you should single out your kink. Example: If writing multiple partners, would you say multi, or multiple, or better to use initials for FFM or MMF?

I know all about getting put in the Amazon Dungeon. Do they put you there if you write out the kink in the title. I've been seeing that in several of the shorts.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

skyle said:


> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,199937.0.html
> 
> All the details are in this thread, including the joining instructions


Ta very much!


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## EmmaDale (Dec 18, 2014)

I only started about a month ago (discovered the 7 day challenge way too late) and have 7 titles out, three of them absolute, horrible flops, but have made about $300 on my other 4, so at least that gives me a direction. I'm doing zero promo and only have a mailing list sign-up, which hasn't had any interested subscribers yet   

Right now I'm obsessing over the first 1-star review I got a few minutes ago, complaining that the book was too short... Hmm, do people actually buy something without checking out the page number? Or at least read the blurb? It was also about a first title in a series that was just starting to take off, but now I'm completely discouraged in writing the sequels... My poor book's page looks completely violated


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

EmmaDale said:


> I only started about a month ago (discovered the 7 day challenge way too late) and have 7 titles out, three of them absolute, horrible flops, but have made about $300 on my other 4, so at least that gives me a direction. I'm doing zero promo and only have a mailing list sign-up, which hasn't had any interested subscribers yet
> 
> Right now I'm obsessing over the first 1-star review I got a few minutes ago, complaining that the book was too short... Hmm, do people actually buy something without checking out the page number? Or at least read the blurb? It was also about a first title in a series that was just starting to take off, but now I'm completely discouraged in writing the sequels... My poor book's page looks completely violated


Shhhhh, shhhhh, there there *hugs*. We shall set a flaming bag of dog poop on their door and run away.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

EmmaDale said:


> I only started about a month ago (discovered the 7 day challenge way too late) and have 7 titles out, three of them absolute, horrible flops, but have made about $300 on my other 4, so at least that gives me a direction. I'm doing zero promo and only have a mailing list sign-up, which hasn't had any interested subscribers yet
> 
> Right now I'm obsessing over the first 1-star review I got a few minutes ago, complaining that the book was too short... Hmm, do people actually buy something without checking out the page number? Or at least read the blurb? It was also about a first title in a series that was just starting to take off, but now I'm completely discouraged in writing the sequels... My poor book's page looks completely violated


Was the too short a complaint or a compliment? Too short as in it felt choppy or too short as in dang it, I wanted more, give me more next time please?


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

cinisajoy said:


> Was the too short a complaint or a compliment? Too short as in it felt choppy or too short as in dang it, I wanted more, give me more next time please?


Well it was paired with 1 star so that would be an unfortunate compliment


----------



## EmmaDale (Dec 18, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Shhhhh, shhhhh, there there *hugs*. We shall set a flaming bag of dog poop on their door and run away.


  Oh, absolutely!



cinisajoy said:


> Was the too short a complaint or a compliment? Too short as in it felt choppy or too short as in dang it, I wanted more, give me more next time please?


I wish it was the "give me more" type... It clearly specified I was a cheater for charging $0.99 for 5,000 words. If I wasn't such a damn perfectionist I wouldn't have stalked the guy like a complete maniac and read all of his reviews. I found out he has never been happy with anything he's ever read on Amazon - all 1 stars. Suspicious...


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

EmmaDale said:


> Oh, absolutely!
> 
> I wish it was the "give me more" type... It clearly specified I was a cheater for charging $0.99 for 5,000 words. If I wasn't such a damn perfectionist I wouldn't have stalked the guy like a complete maniac and read all of his reviews. I found out he has never been happy with anything he's ever read on Amazon - all 1 stars. Suspicious...


That sounds like a reviewer I ran across the other day.

Wait a minute 5,000 for 99 cents, you are not a cheater you are cheap. PM me your pen name please. I will read and review your book.


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## BEAST (Mar 31, 2012)

EmmaDale said:


> Oh, absolutely!
> 
> I wish it was the "give me more" type... It clearly specified I was a cheater for charging $0.99 for 5,000 words. If I wasn't such a damn perfectionist I wouldn't have stalked the guy like a complete maniac and read all of his reviews. I found out he has never been happy with anything he's ever read on Amazon - all 1 stars. Suspicious...


Irritating but not really suspicious. Some people read a lot but ONLY leave a review when they didn't like the story. One thing I did was put up a permafree buffer if you will. It's a sampling of a few of my titles and gives readers a good taste of what I have to offer. I don't get many ratings under a 3-star and even the 3-star are worded positively, just hard reviewers. All my one stars go to the permafree.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

skyle said:


> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,199937.0.html
> 
> All the details are in this thread, including the joining instructions


I joined today. It does look like it's worth the 10 bucks. I'm not leaving kboards, though. I still learn a lot that will help with my thrillers.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

judygoodwin said:


> Obviously someone who hasn't been reading a lot of erotica, or else they'd know how much short fiction is in that genre. I wouldn't worry about it.
> 
> And sheesh! You can't buy gum for 99 cents these days! Most erotica is $2.99 for 5,000 words! (you actually might want to raise your price. Then you'll avoid the bargain bin shoppers like this one.)


I'm actually doing an experiment. I have 99 cent shorts and got a similar review. Today I started a story for a new pen name that charges 2.99 for 5k. I'm going to see which does better without the risk of losing readers I already have. This way if the short 2.99 doesn't sell, who cares? It's a new name.


----------



## batmansero (Oct 10, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> So I'm a bit worried about how well I'm going to sell since I don't have any crazy BBW-billionaire-cyborg dog-BDSM-tentacle porn erotica stories.


Dibs!!


----------



## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I've not had a single review so far, so I'm not sure whether my stuff is too long, too short, too hot, too tame... I had some nice feedback from peers thanks to the other forum, but nothing from readers. I feel like I'm writing blind, to be honest. But no news might be good news?


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

skyle said:


> You actually expect to get reviews on your erotica? Haha ha ha ha ha! Falls on the floor. Ow!
> 
> Sorry, but I've got 15 titles, the first of which came out five months ago now, and during December at least I was getting massive downloads every day, and I have only one review across all those titles. Just one. And it was only three stars. So I too checked the reviewer out and it would appear that they regularly buy erotica and then leave disappointed reviews. I'm not sure what this person is searching for, but they clearly are not finding it in the erotica market, therefore I didn't take the review to heart. I think it is best to just accept that most people who read in this genre don't review. It isn't personal, it's just embarrassing for them. They don't want to be seen leaving reviews for duvet covers, and The Polar Express, and an angle poise lamp, and _porn_. It could undermine them as a reviewer if you see what I mean. Which I for one completely understand. My amazon account is primarily for books, because like any writer I read A LOT. But even I only leave reviews for books I didn't have to read under the covers. I like the fact that my account is full of reviews on decent books and people can trust that they are intelligent opinions and even go and see what else I liked or didnt. I read smut too, of course, it would be daft not to seeing as it is what I write and I need to keep up with the market, but I don't review it ... And if even the writers of this stuff don't review, then would the "normal" people really do so either?


Possibly they are people who seek erotica and find only porn? That happens to me a lot. I occasionally leave reviews, both good and bad ones. Three stars would be a good one.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

skyle said:


> You actually expect to get reviews on your erotica? Haha ha ha ha ha! Falls on the floor. Ow!
> 
> Sorry, but I've got 15 titles, the first of which came out five months ago now, and during December at least I was getting massive downloads every day, and I have only one review across all those titles. Just one. And it was only three stars. So I too checked the reviewer out and it would appear that they regularly buy erotica and then leave disappointed reviews. I'm not sure what this person is searching for, but they clearly are not finding it in the erotica market, therefore I didn't take the review to heart. I think it is best to just accept that most people who read in this genre don't review. It isn't personal, it's just embarrassing for them. They don't want to be seen leaving reviews for duvet covers, and The Polar Express, and an angle poise lamp, and _porn_. It could undermine them as a reviewer if you see what I mean. Which I for one completely understand. My amazon account is primarily for books, because like any writer I read A LOT. But even I only leave reviews for books I didn't have to read under the covers. I like the fact that my account is full of reviews on decent books and people can trust that they are intelligent opinions and even go and see what else I liked or didnt. I read smut too, of course, it would be daft not to seeing as it is what I write and I need to keep up with the market, but I don't review it ... And if even the writers of this stuff don't review, then would the "normal" people really do so either?


Hmm, fair enough


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## EmmaDale (Dec 18, 2014)

skyle said:


> You actually expect to get reviews on your erotica? Haha ha ha ha ha! Falls on the floor. Ow!
> 
> Sorry, but I've got 15 titles, the first of which came out five months ago now, and during December at least I was getting massive downloads every day, and I have only one review across all those titles. Just one. And it was only three stars. So I too checked the reviewer out and it would appear that they regularly buy erotica and then leave disappointed reviews. I'm not sure what this person is searching for, but they clearly are not finding it in the erotica market, therefore I didn't take the review to heart. I think it is best to just accept that most people who read in this genre don't review. It isn't personal, it's just embarrassing for them. They don't want to be seen leaving reviews for duvet covers, and The Polar Express, and an angle poise lamp, and _porn_. It could undermine them as a reviewer if you see what I mean. Which I for one completely understand. My amazon account is primarily for books, because like any writer I read A LOT. But even I only leave reviews for books I didn't have to read under the covers. I like the fact that my account is full of reviews on decent books and people can trust that they are intelligent opinions and even go and see what else I liked or didnt. I read smut too, of course, it would be daft not to seeing as it is what I write and I need to keep up with the market, but I don't review it ... And if even the writers of this stuff don't review, then would the "normal" people really do so either?


True, I barely find the time or motivation to review the books I read, even if I happen to LOVE them (sad), it's much more compelling to tell the world that something sucked. Anyway, since yesterday, I did a lot more analyzing and thinking and reading (here and on that other forum), and realized that the 1-star review was the least of my problems and I could be doing much better than the odd sales or borrows per day. I'm on a quest to fix my amateurish mistakes, such as keywords and blurbs, because it looks like I've been doing it all wrong so far. It's super annoying and time-consuming, but worth giving it a try before I start yet another pen name. Today's sales chart looks dismal, which is oddly motivating me to work harder... I want those massive downloads every day too!!


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Whispering I know an erotic reviewer.  Of course, if she thinks your book sucks, she will be kind and tell you privately.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Whispering I know an erotic reviewer. Of course, if she thinks your book sucks, she will be kind and tell you privately.


Don't you already have like 800 books in your TBR pile? When do you ever sleep?


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Don't you already have like 800 books in your TBR pile? When do you ever sleep?


Yes but erotica is quick and easy.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

True dat. Some of us do like to write a bit longer, but it's probably not enough to slow you down much.


----------



## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

I have a cover dilemma. I know a lot of you started writing erotica from the 7 day challenge thread. I started at the end of January, and I'm still learning a lot. Right now, I'm not sure which cover to go with. I've got a cover from a Fiverr designer and one from a cover designer friend. I'm not sure which would be the best to go with. I want to see which one sells the best. One I think conveys more of the sense of what the book is about. The other is HOT, but doesn't really give an idea what the book might be about as much. I really am not sure which is the better cover. It's early enough to fix them, and go with the better design to order more.

I've posted them on my blog so they aren't on this board. I know how they aren't happy about any erotica covers being posted.

Here is my blog link:
http://lyndabelle.com/2015/02/28/erotica-cover-dilemma/

You can post comments/feedback on my blog or on this thread. Thank you!


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

I like cover A if only because it looks slightly more professional


----------



## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

lyndabelle said:


> I have a cover dilemma. I know a lot of you started writing erotica from the 7 day challenge thread. I started at the end of January, and I'm still learning a lot. Right now, I'm not sure which cover to go with. I've got a cover from a Fiverr designer and one from a cover designer friend. I'm not sure which would be the best to go with. I want to see which one sells the best. One I think conveys more of the sense of what the book is about. The other is HOT, but doesn't really give an idea what the book might be about as much. I really am not sure which is the better cover. It's early enough to fix them, and go with the better design to order more.
> 
> I've posted them on my blog so they aren't on this board. I know how they aren't happy about any erotica covers being posted.
> 
> ...


Cover A looks more like a typical erotica cover and my guess is it will sell better as the genre is more obvious.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

A question about Amazon tags.
Does Amazon look at these when deciding to slap an "Adult" label on you? Or do they only look at your cover and description?


----------



## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Stephanie Marks said:


> A question about Amazon tags.
> Does Amazon look at these when deciding to slap an "Adult" label on you? Or do they only look at your cover and description?


Amazon has relaxed a lot since the porn-apocalypse of a couple years ago. It seems almost impossible to get stuck in the dungeon these days. The only thing I know for sure that will do it is a cover that shows genitals. They're even allowing PI again. Of course, they could decide to be prudes all over again, and this will all change. But as it stands, just don't have nudity on your covers and you should be fine.


----------



## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

Briteka said:


> Amazon has relaxed a lot since the porn-apocalypse of a couple years ago. It seems almost impossible to get stuck in the dungeon these days. The only thing I know for sure that will do it is a cover that shows genitals. They're even allowing PI again. Of course, they could decide to be prudes all over again, and this will all change. But as it stands, just don't have nudity on your covers and you should be fine.


Cool, because I wanted to try a "billionaire step-brother" shorty story (lol yup this is happening), but I didn't know if I could actually use the tag "step-brother" or had to use "PI" or "Taboo".


----------



## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Cool, because I wanted to try a "billionaire step-brother" shorty story (lol yup this is happening), but I didn't know if I could actually use the tag "step-brother" or had to use "PI" or "Taboo".


The current trend seems to be to make them erotic romances and keep them out of erotica. For instance, http://www.amazon.com/CAUGHT-Taboo-Erotic-Romantic-Mystery-ebook/dp/B00P887B8I/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1425130452&sr=8-5&keywords=step+sister+erotica

They seem to do well in Romance and New Adult. In fact, one stayed sticky at the top of the romance charts last year for a long time. I forgot it's name though.

ETA: Here's one currently charting in Women's Fiction http://www.amazon.com/Growing-Together-Billionaire-Stepbrother-Romance-ebook/dp/B00U0NDNO2/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1425130452&sr=8-12&keywords=step+sister+erotica


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

Briteka said:


> The current trend seems to be to make them erotic romances and keep them out of erotica. For instance, http://www.amazon.com/CAUGHT-Taboo-Erotic-Romantic-Mystery-ebook/dp/B00P887B8I/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1425130452&sr=8-5&keywords=step+sister+erotica
> 
> They seem to do well in Romance and New Adult. In fact, one stayed sticky at the top of the romance charts last year for a long time. I forgot it's name though.
> 
> ETA: Here's one currently charting in Women's Fiction http://www.amazon.com/Growing-Together-Billionaire-Stepbrother-Romance-ebook/dp/B00U0NDNO2/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1425130452&sr=8-12&keywords=step+sister+erotica


Thanks for this. I think that this will do well for a series of shorts dedicated to the theme. (Which is something I'm considering).
But it probably won't work that way for this particular short, though it will also be listed under memoirs due to the series style.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Briteka said:


> The current trend seems to be to make them erotic romances and keep them out of erotica. For instance, http://www.amazon.com/CAUGHT-Taboo-Erotic-Romantic-Mystery-ebook/dp/B00P887B8I/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1425130452&sr=8-5&keywords=step+sister+erotica
> 
> They seem to do well in Romance and New Adult. In fact, one stayed sticky at the top of the romance charts last year for a long time. I forgot it's name though.
> 
> ETA: Here's one currently charting in Women's Fiction http://www.amazon.com/Growing-Together-Billionaire-Stepbrother-Romance-ebook/dp/B00U0NDNO2/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1425130452&sr=8-12&keywords=step+sister+erotica


I'm putting the one I'm working on now in erom and NA, but I'm still not sure if I should start a new name for it. I already have two new names because I don't think my thriller readers would appreciate the sheer brilliance of my erotica art, lol. I just worry the erom people will accidentally buy my smut. Maybe if I put a warning to check out the look inside features for content warning before they buy my other books?


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

Sweet Amber said:


> I'm presuming you switched to a more profitable kink? Did you have to alternate strategies to get visibility or did it take care of itself with the right keywords?


It was all about the keywords, the promo sites, and the back matter / CTAs.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

Briteka said:


> Amazon has relaxed a lot since the porn-apocalypse of a couple years ago. It seems almost impossible to get stuck in the dungeon these days.


This is completely false. You *can* and *will* be dungeoned, or worse, blocked, over _a single word_ in your blurb or title. It just happened to someone less than a week ago because of one word that could pass muster in Romance but not Erotica.

Yes, avoid nudity and hand-clothing (like handbras, make sure more than 50% of butts are covered, and beware of implied nudity. That part is correct.

If you're publishing an erotica title and are going to try and avoid the erotica "reverse redlining" / quarantine and want to place it in other fiction categories, I would recommend other categories under Literature & Fiction, like single author and short stories. If you put erotica in romance, romance readers will complain and leave you lousy reviews. Play with fire and you get burned.

You can only put step-whatever in titles and blurbs if they're _actually_ Romance and categorized as such. Don't do it with erotica. Don't. Do. It.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> This is completely false. You *can* and *will* be dungeoned, or worse, blocked, over _a single word_ in your blurb or title. It just happened to someone less than a week ago because of one word that could pass muster in Romance but not Erotica.
> 
> Yes, avoid nudity and hand-clothing (like handbras, make sure more than 50% of butts are covered, and beware of implied nudity. That part is correct.
> 
> ...


I know this wasn't directed at me but since the response you quoted was in answer to my question, let me just say that I was just talking about using it for keyword tags when you set up your catagories. Nothing in titles, blurbs, covers or the like. The erotica that I'm working on is EROTICA and there are no two ways around it ACCEPT that it is also a memoir. Which is why my two categories are Erotica and Literature & Fiction> Biographies & Memoirs of Women. But a couple of the stories deal with step-siblings so I wanted to know if I could use that as a tag when I set up the book and be ok.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> This is completely false. You *can* and *will* be dungeoned, or worse, blocked, over _a single word_ in your blurb or title. It just happened to someone less than a week ago because of one word that could pass muster in Romance but not Erotica.
> 
> Yes, avoid nudity and hand-clothing (like handbras, make sure more than 50% of butts are covered, and beware of implied nudity. That part is correct.
> 
> ...


This. Amazon has absolutely not relaxed about anything concerning erotica and will block or suspend you in a heartbeat. But keywords are another matter, correct? I got pretty down and dirty when I updated mine and it cleared within hours. Am wondering if I got lucky or if it's actually okay with keywords.


----------



## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Briteka said:


> Amazon has relaxed a lot since the porn-apocalypse of a couple years ago. It seems almost impossible to get stuck in the dungeon these days. The only thing I know for sure that will do it is a cover that shows genitals. They're even allowing PI again. Of course, they could decide to be prudes all over again, and this will all change. But as it stands, just don't have nudity on your covers and you should be fine.


I got my five books put in the dungeon because I used the word, "Daddy" in the About The Author in the back of the book. Seriously! My covers have a woman in a full dress, no nudity, no erotic titles. Once I removed the reference to the author's "Daddy" they took me out of the dungeon. But lost my rankings some... It took 4 or 5 days to get cleared and that's the only thing I changed. I'm guessing a Bot caught the word. And yes, they were erom.

ETA: the books were not PI


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> I got my five books put in the dungeon because I used the word, "Daddy" in the About The Author in the back of the book. Seriously! My covers have a woman in a full dress, no nudity, no erotic titles. Once I removed the reference to the author's "Daddy" they took me out of the dungeon. But lost my rankings some... It took 4 or 5 days to get cleared and that's the only thing I changed. I'm guessing a Bot caught the word. And yes, they were erom.
> 
> ETA: the books were not PI


I think it depends on the screener, too. I've used the word father, mother, and brother in lots of stories that are not PI and never had a problem. You know, my characters hook up with family friends. Sounds like you just got unlucky or I got lucky.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> I think it depends on the screener, too. I've used the word father, mother, and brother in lots of stories that are not PI and never had a problem. You know, my characters hook up with family friends. Sounds like you just got unlucky or I got lucky.


Maybe I got Carlos


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> Maybe I got Carlos


God, not Carlos.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Oh Carlos with the school girl fetish.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Oh Carlos with the school girl fetish.


Ha!


----------



## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

lyndabelle said:


> I have a cover dilemma. I know a lot of you started writing erotica from the 7 day challenge thread. I started at the end of January, and I'm still learning a lot. Right now, I'm not sure which cover to go with. I've got a cover from a Fiverr designer and one from a cover designer friend. I'm not sure which would be the best to go with. I want to see which one sells the best. One I think conveys more of the sense of what the book is about. The other is HOT, but doesn't really give an idea what the book might be about as much. I really am not sure which is the better cover. It's early enough to fix them, and go with the better design to order more.
> 
> I've posted them on my blog so they aren't on this board. I know how they aren't happy about any erotica covers being posted.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback Melody and Stephanie. I'm getting feedback that cover A is preferred.  By the way, cover A was the Fiverr cover. I did pay extra $10 for the image to be added. Any more comments are still welcome. Thanks everyone!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Trust me, he bans those covers in a heartbeat even if the woman is fully clothed.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Trust me, he bans those covers in a heartbeat even if the woman is fully clothed.


 Yes, I have one forever blocked. I don't publish on weekends anymore unless it's a very tame title.


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## JessieSnow (Jul 25, 2014)

I have one forever blocked too. I was young, Amazon! Oh, so young... I didn't know what I was doing.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

JessieSnow said:


> I have one forever blocked too. I was young, Amazon! Oh, so young... I didn't know what I was doing.


That's what happened to me. It was like my third story. After that Cinisajoy told me about the weekend thing. But honestly, I didn't even know I had to watch my titles and covers. I blame Amazon for the vague guidelines. Newbies need more info on what is acceptable.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Newbies ask first then publish.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Newbies ask first then publish.


I wish someone had told me this. I keep my eyes averted from that blocked story on my bookshelf. It still makes me feel like a naughty, scolded child.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Yes, I have one forever blocked. I don't publish on weekends anymore unless it's a very tame title.


Wow, ok so I will be sure to publish in the middle of the night on a Wednesday or something, lol.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Wow, ok so I will be sure to publish in the middle of the night on a Wednesday or something, lol.


Some say they've never had a problem, but lots have, so many of us avoid weekend publishing for erotica unless the cover and title are tame.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Wow, ok so I will be sure to publish in the middle of the night on a Wednesday or something, lol.


Actually weekdays are best. Not the middle of the night unless your night is Seattle day time.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Actually weekdays are best. Not the middle of the night unless your night is Seattle day time.


This is true. They have more time to be picky late night I guess. I get everything loaded Sunday night and then hit publish Monday morning. I have done tamer titles on the weekend with no problem, though.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

cinisajoy said:


> Actually weekdays are best. Not the middle of the night unless your night is Seattle day time.


No my night time is Seattles night time since I'm just a couple ours above them, lol. Ok so middle of the DAY in the middle of the week. Good to know good to know. I am SO glad that I won't have to worry about this with my novels.


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## kmriad (Jun 24, 2011)

Do any of you write multiple genres under pen names?  If so, how do you manage that in KDP?  I read on another post something about being able to toggle through your different author pages, but I can't seem to find that function yet.  And my god, y'all write a lot!  I've been doing this since 2012 and I maybe put out two books a year.  Y'all are impressive.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

kmriad said:


> Do any of you write multiple genres under pen names? If so, how do you manage that in KDP? I read on another post something about being able to toggle through your different author pages, but I can't seem to find that function yet. And my god, y'all write a lot! I've been doing this since 2012 and I maybe put out two books a year. Y'all are impressive.


I have a few pen names because I write in other genres. You are allowed three for your author page. If you don't have more names than that, just publish and add your book to author central like you always would. It recognizes it's not your name and offers the option to claim the book under a different pen name. As for KDP you could have a million pen names. Just type in the name you want to use when you publish and that's the name they publish it under. All your sales show on the same page. Also, I'm not all that impressive. I write erotica shorts, 3500-15.000 words if that makes you feel better, so it's easier for me to be fairly prolific. I edited to add if you do have more than three names, I believe you have to contact them and ask for another page, then you get three more for that page. They might have changed it so you don't have to do that anymore, though. I guess cross that bridge when you come to it.


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

Stephanie Marks said:


> A question about Amazon tags.
> Does Amazon look at these when deciding to slap an "Adult" label on you? Or do they only look at your cover and description?


I was dungeoned recently for having the word "Bondage" in the title. Changed it to "Broken" and emailed support. They removed the adult dungeon tag within 36 hours.

The current thinking is you can use whatever you want in your keywords...and use all 400 characters. No one said you have to put commas in where you might logically put them to separate your keywords.


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> I have a few pen names because I write in other genres. You are allowed three for your author page. If you don't have more names than that, just publish and add your book to author central like you always would. It recognizes it's not your name and offers the option to claim the book under a different pen name. As for KDP you could have a million pen names. Just type in the name you want to use when you publish and that's the name they publish it under. All your sales show on the same page. Also, I'm not all that impressive. I write erotica shorts, 3500-15.000 words if that makes you feel better, so it's easier for me to be fairly prolific. I edited to add if you do have more than three names, I believe you have to contact them and ask for another page, then you get three more for that page. They might have changed it so you don't have to do that anymore, though. I guess cross that bridge when you come to it.


Just create another email address and sign up for author central under that and you can do three more pen names. Every pen name I create I make sure to nab the email address before I commit.


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## kmriad (Jun 24, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> I have a few pen names because I write in other genres. You are allowed three for your author page. If you don't have more names than that, just publish and add your book to author central like you always would. It recognizes it's not your name and offers the option to claim the book under a different pen name. As for KDP you could have a million pen names. Just type in the name you want to use when you publish and that's the name they publish it under. All your sales show on the same page. Also, I'm not all that impressive. I write erotica shorts, 3500-15.000 words if that makes you feel better, so it's easier for me to be fairly prolific. I edited to add if you do have more than three names, I believe you have to contact them and ask for another page, then you get three more for that page. They might have changed it so you don't have to do that anymore, though. I guess cross that bridge when you come to it.


 Ah! I did it! Thank you so much - now for coming up with a new bio for myself...Also, just because I love the cover my artist did for me, here's the page! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U3VPSW6


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

That is gorgeous.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

kmriad said:


> Ah! I did it! Thank you so much - now for coming up with a new bio for myself...Also, just because I love the cover my artist did for me, here's the page! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U3VPSW6


She did a great job.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

CDF said:


> I was dungeoned recently for having the word "Bondage" in the title. Changed it to "Broken" and emailed support. They removed the adult dungeon tag within 36 hours.
> 
> The current thinking is you can use whatever you want in your keywords...and use all 400 characters. No one said you have to put commas in where you might logically put them to separate your keywords.


Omg seriously? So as long as I only use 4 commas I can use a billion words? BRILLIANT!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

A


Stephanie Marks said:


> Omg seriously? So as long as I only use 4 commas I can use a billion words? BRILLIANT!


Only if you can squeeze a billion words into 400 characters.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Omg seriously? So as long as I only use 4 commas I can use a billion words? BRILLIANT!


I did it yesterday. I took a chance and through in every dirty act and toy in the story. I placed first page in several different searches and even got 2 books placing 2nd on the first page a couple of times. Here's the trick I tried. By all means, someone more seasoned can correct me if I'm wrong. But I went to the kindle store and started typing in different phrases people might be searching for if they want a book like mine. The first, menage, yielded thousands of results. I used it to make sure I'd be in the right category, but it gave me no visibility, so I tried other phrases until I found some that only had 500 results, some only had 138, some even less. I threw in all the middle of the road ones and low ones as well, because there I had instant visibility. Then, like I said, I threw in the acts and toys in the story. I just stuffed it in like crazy and had no problem getting by screening. Another thing I did was look at the bestsellers, then when I tried another phrase I'd see if they showed up. If they did they probably used keywords similar to mine.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> I did it yesterday. I took a chance and through in every dirty act and toy in the story. I placed first page in several different searches and even got 2 books placing 2nd on the first page a couple of times. Here's the trick I tried. By all means, someone more seasoned can correct me if I'm wrong. But I went to the kindle store and started typing in different phrases people might be searching for if they want a book like mine. The first, menage, yielded thousands of results. I used it to make sure I'd be in the right category, but it gave me no visibility, so I tried other phrases until I found some that only had 500 results, some only had 138, some even less. I threw in all the middle of the road ones and low ones as well, because there I had instant visibility. Then, like I said, I threw in the acts and toys in the story. I just stuffed it in like crazy and had no problem getting by screening.


Amaaaaazing. I spent this morning searching single kwy words to narrow down the five most specific key words for each story. It was great practice to ise when limited. But this is an amazing work around for going keyword mad, lol


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Amaaaaazing. I spent this morning searching single kwy words to narrow down the five most specific key words for each story. It was great practice to ise when limited. But this is an amazing work around for going keyword mad, lol


Stuff em, stuff em ,stuff em, lol.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Stuff em, stuff em ,stuff em, lol.


Lol. Will do.
Seriously though, I need to do a quick spelling glance before I hit submit!


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## Eva Lefoy (Jan 25, 2014)

skyle said:


> Wow, you make me feel like a total slacker! If I'd kept going through Jan Feb then I'd almost be at double what I have now, but not 54!
> 
> I totally agree about KU. I put everything out for $2.99 and in KU as well, so either way I make what I would consider a worthy amount for a short story. I only leave out box sets, of which I have three and I charge $3.99 for them, I believe they are a different market, and actually my best seller of all is one of my box sets.


i wish i could decide! I might make more money!


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## kmriad (Jun 24, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> That is gorgeous.


 Thank you!!! I LOVE her work - been working with her since 2011. I actually found her on this site!!


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## kmriad (Jun 24, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> She did a great job.


 Aw, thank you so much! I'm super excited now and just a little less frightened - much appreciated!


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## Eva Lefoy (Jan 25, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> I bought Jade Scott's book on publishing erotica, but most of it was stuff I already knew. Not saying it didn't have some good advice, it's just most of it was common knowledge if you studied the market at all. It was still nice to have some of what I though I knew re-enforced by her, though. She does pretty well.


I;m in the same boat! major suckage here!!


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## kmriad (Jun 24, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> I did it yesterday. I took a chance and through in every dirty act and toy in the story. I placed first page in several different searches and even got 2 books placing 2nd on the first page a couple of times. Here's the trick I tried. By all means, someone more seasoned can correct me if I'm wrong. But I went to the kindle store and started typing in different phrases people might be searching for if they want a book like mine. The first, menage, yielded thousands of results. I used it to make sure I'd be in the right category, but it gave me no visibility, so I tried other phrases until I found some that only had 500 results, some only had 138, some even less. I threw in all the middle of the road ones and low ones as well, because there I had instant visibility. Then, like I said, I threw in the acts and toys in the story. I just stuffed it in like crazy and had no problem getting by screening. Another thing I did was look at the bestsellers, then when I tried another phrase I'd see if they showed up. If they did they probably used keywords similar to mine.


 Y'all have this stuff down to a science


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

I have a book that is listed in every erotica category based on the keywords I used. Not recommended however. I figure it puts a bullseye on me but I wanted to test it and I will be switching it out again because we really should only be in relevant categories. Btw that book really doesn't sell better than any of the others.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

JessieSnow said:


> I have one forever blocked too. I was young, Amazon! Oh, so young... I didn't know what I was doing.


I've got 14 blocked titles. I'm sure some of the more prolific smut peddlers like Cassandra Zara have dozens.

I'm beginning to wonder if Amazon isn't slowly moving more towards B&N's "anything goes" philosophy as mainstream romance keeps pushing the envelope (50 Shades, Stepbrother Dearest, etc.). Many of the things that got those 14 titles blocked a year or two ago would sail right through review without so much as a blink today.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> I've got 14 blocked titles. I'm sure some of the more prolific smut peddlers like Cassandra Zara have dozens.
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder if Amazon isn't slowly moving more towards B&N's "anything goes" philosophy as mainstream romance keeps pushing the envelope (50 Shades, Stepbrother Dearest, etc.). Many of the things that got those 14 titles blocked a year or two ago would sail right through review without so much as a blink today.


I know Zara does. She had most of her catalog deleted back in September, I think it was.. I figured that's why she's switched to romance. I've always felt Amazon is way off on how they handled the purge. I mean some people were complaining and the media got involved, but the titles they were complaining about were far worse than putting the word step in PI. It's PI. Why can't you use the word step? It isn't really incest and PI is allowed on Amazon. Makes no sense to me. Then they'll turn around and let you use step all you like in romance, a much more visible genre, so why bother with worrying about what erotica PI does to their reputation? I also think some stuff that is sailing through is because they want to bloat the number of KU titles. Once they don't need that I bet many get deleted and some accounts get banned. That's why I still don't push it. Obviously I'm still bitter about the blocking, lol.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

That's what I mean. Since "Stepbrother Dearest" came out Amazon no longer blocks or adult dungeons books for having "stepbrother" in the title. Just like at one point they would do that if you had "virgin" or "babysitter". They've been steadily loosening the restrictions since the Pornocalypse. Now I'm seeing catalogs full of things that would have gotten your account banned 2 or 3 years ago and none of if is even adult filtered.

As you say, though, it's always possible that they'll shift gears tomorrow and go crazy banning accounts. It is Amazon after all.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> That's what I mean. Since "Stepbrother Dearest" came out Amazon no longer blocks or adult dungeons books for having "stepbrother" in the title. Just like at one point they would do that if you had "virgin" or "babysitter". They've been steadily loosening the restrictions since the Pornocalypse. Now I'm seeing catalogs full of things that would have gotten your account banned 2 or 3 years ago and none of if is even adult filtered.
> 
> As you say, though, it's always possible that they'll shift gears tomorrow and go crazy banning accounts. It is Amazon after all.


I'm also afraid to push it because since I already had a PI blocked, it'd be my second warning for the same thing. Sometimes I wonder how many banned authors get a new tax id # and start all over. I guess if you were making big money that's the first thing you'd think of.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

Well since my titles and blurbs will be clean I'm REALLY hoping that my PI stuff slips through as well, especially if it sells well.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Well since my titles and blurbs will be clean I'm REALLY hoping that my PI stuff slips through as well, especially if it sells well.


Stick Taboo or something in there, or at least in the content warning. Some people love PI and some hate it, so you don't want the latter to accidentally buy it. At least in my opinion for what that's worth.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Stick Taboo or something in there, or at least in the content warning. Some people love PI and some hate it, so you don't want the latter to accidentally buy it. At least in my opinion for what that's worth.


Oh yeah I will put in "man of the house" for one and something eaqually appropriate for the other. Every book description in the series with have the same initially blurb for the series and then a specified blurb for the exact story that I'm telling in that installment. It's like taking a diary and publishing it a single diary entry at a time.

So...

"Something something secret confessions of a phone girl, something something something. Tell all diary about the calls I took and my clients deepest desires, something something something else.

Call # 1: "Installment Title"

Blah blah details about this installments specific journal entry."


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## Eva Lefoy (Jan 25, 2014)

skyle said:


> I plan on doing zero marketing or social networking (bar chatting here). I self edit and get my covers done on fiverr. So basically each book costs me only $5 to produce. They have all made back that back within a couple of hours of going live.


Skyle for $5 are you proving the cover images? Or is the artist?

Thanks

Eva


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

I contacted a couple of great looking cover artists on fiverr but they are taking ages to get back to me, so I've just contacted a couple more. I really hope that I can find someone reliable.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Anybody having a success with pre-orders? I've decided to try it for the second short in my series. Does it work for erotica? Or is it better to do a straight release? I've got one preorder so far. Very prawnie like sales, but rockstar ffm is an actual niche. I think maybe the change in my keywords is helping. I did set up a blog to let people know and have over 700 friends on Facebook in 3 weeks.

Here's the post I put up for my pre-order:

http://lyndabelle.com/2015/03/02/release-date-set-for-rockin-him-harder-march-5/


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

lyndabelle said:


> I have a cover dilemma. I know a lot of you started writing erotica from the 7 day challenge thread. I started at the end of January, and I'm still learning a lot. Right now, I'm not sure which cover to go with. I've got a cover from a Fiverr designer and one from a cover designer friend. I'm not sure which would be the best to go with. I want to see which one sells the best. One I think conveys more of the sense of what the book is about. The other is HOT, but doesn't really give an idea what the book might be about as much. I really am not sure which is the better cover. It's early enough to fix them, and go with the better design to order more.
> 
> I've posted them on my blog so they aren't on this board. I know how they aren't happy about any erotica covers being posted.
> 
> ...


I'm still stuck on which cover designs to go with for my rockstar short story series. I got pretty good feedback on my last debate. So, I've put up the second set of covers on my Lynda Belle blog to get feedback. It's almost become a fun event for people to participate in. On Facebook, it's been interesting since people like to do games and such on the pages while at work.

Here's the link to see them on my Lynda Belle blog:
http://lyndabelle.com/2015/03/03/second-cover-debate-cover-a-or-b-for-rockin-him-harder/

Any feedback will be welcomed. Feel free to comment on the blog or on this thread. Thanks!


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

lyndabelle said:


> Anybody having a success with pre-orders? I've decided to try it for the second short in my series. Does it work for erotica? Or is it better to do a straight release? I've got one preorder so far. Very prawnie like sales, but rockstar ffm is an actual niche. I think maybe the change in my keywords is helping. I did set up a blog to let people know and have over 700 friends on Facebook in 3 weeks.
> 
> Here's the post I put up for my pre-order:
> 
> http://lyndabelle.com/2015/03/02/release-date-set-for-rockin-him-harder-march-5/


I really like the pre-orders for the fact that I can put the link to the next book at the end. I don't promo the pre-orders, I just let them come in organically, but I think it is working well so far. I think it is good for the reader who wants to read your next book and wants to have it auto-delivered on release day.


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## ashleywoods614 (Jan 26, 2015)

Maximillion said:


> This happened today. I'm sure I won't be there long but it's getting better and better with each new release. First I hit #90 then #72 and now #48. This has only happened this year. Been focusing on putting out work every week. I put out a 8,500 short each Monday and charge $0.99. All shorts are part of a 9 part series that will later be bundled. It's black gay erotica but I stress that having fleshed out characters and plot makes a BIG difference. It's erotica, not porn.
> 
> Every two weeks I put out a 25,000 word erotica novella. It usually consists of five, 5,000 word stories/chapters. Hard to define because while the plot connects them, they can stand along. I charge $2.99 for these. I also publish a 25,000 word novella that might be romance, mystery or suspense with an erotic bend. These have less sex than the erotica novellas but it is there.
> 
> ...


I'm a fan BEAST!!


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Today I had a fun break through. It occurred to me that I don't have to write a story a week in the same series. I could jump around as I come up with other ideas. Thus, after freeing up the brain, I came up with a Scottish Historical Taboo story. 500 years ago, 16 year old Scottish virgin, 81 year old groom, young, gorgeous son-in-law, wedding night. What could happen? *Evil grin* 

Thing is, keywords. I'm guessing "virgin" as a keyword might get you thrown into the Amazon adult dungeon, let a lone a 16 year old with her son-in-law. But it so much fun writing a first time perspective. 500 years ago makes it all plausible, almost necessary for what happens. An heir must be begot. 

Anyway, it's tricky figuring keywords that fit the story but won't get me zinged. Any suggestions? Other stories out there like this I could check out?


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

innocence, innocent, first time, I think that kind of thing is pretty much OK, surely?


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

lyndabelle said:


> Thing is, keywords. I'm guessing "virgin" as a keyword might get you thrown into the Amazon adult dungeon, let a lone a 16 year old with her son-in-law. But it so much fun writing a first time perspective. 500 years ago makes it all plausible, almost necessary for what happens. An heir must be begot.


Keywords can pretty much contain anything without it triggering the adult dungeon; virgin is extremely tame as far as that goes.  When trying to make sure you don't get thrown in the dungeon or even having your title blocked, it's all about the cover, title, blurb, and look inside - the stuff readers can see from the product listing. I really doubt that using "virgin" even in the title is enough to get sent to the adult dungeon, as well.

I have an impression that even if it's historical, the fact that she's 16 years old will mean they _will _ block it if they realize it. Otherwise it'd be enough for anyone writing sex with minors to just say it's the 1500's. 

For keywords I'd use these for the fact that she's hooking up with another man on her wedding night: "cuckold housewife hotwife cheating forbidden bride wedding", and these for the virginity factor: "virgin taken virginity first time".


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

> I have an impression that even if it's historical, the fact that she's 16 years old will mean they will block it if they realize it. Otherwise it'd be enough for anyone writing sex with minors to just say it's the 1500's.


I wrote an historical that I've not published yet and I put that the girl had just come 'of age' without mention what that age was. For the time period, it would've been a lot younger than nowadays but I figured that not mentioning her actual age avoids any issue.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

kathrynoh said:


> I wrote an historical that I've not published yet and I put that the girl had just come 'of age' without mention what that age was. For the time period, it would've been a lot younger than nowadays but I figured that not mentioning her actual age avoids any issue.


Yep, I think it would avoid the issue as well.


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## BEAST (Mar 31, 2012)

ashleywoods614 said:


> I'm a fan BEAST!!


lol, thank you Ashley. It's 1 am and you just put fire to my feet to knock out another 1,000 words.

In regards to keywords... All last week I was trying to get my erotica titles in two categories: Gay Erotica and African American Erotica. I tried changing categories and keywords. Couldn't find the right combination. So I just emailed Amazon and they took care of it. Told me to email them when I publish a new title to get the categories I want.

Take the time and shoot out an email. I saw a dip in sales and borrows from all the attempts. Both are bouncing back to excepted rates now.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Sweet Amber said:


> Keywords can pretty much contain anything without it triggering the adult dungeon; virgin is extremely tame as far as that goes.  When trying to make sure you don't get thrown in the dungeon or even having your title blocked, it's all about the cover, title, blurb, and look inside - the stuff readers can see from the product listing. I really doubt that using "virgin" even in the title is enough to get sent to the adult dungeon, as well.
> 
> I have an impression that even if it's historical, the fact that she's 16 years old will mean they _will _ block it if they realize it. Otherwise it'd be enough for anyone writing sex with minors to just say it's the 1500's.
> 
> For keywords I'd use these for the fact that she's hooking up with another man on her wedding night: "cuckold housewife hotwife cheating forbidden bride wedding", and these for the virginity factor: "virgin taken virginity first time".


Thank you Kathrynoh too. I was thinking of saying "18 years old" or wondering if using "Of Age" would work better. But definitely saying she was 16 I thought would cause probs.

The keywords are a great help too. Thank you Sweet Amber. I think which ones to use are making a difference in people finding my stories. The rockstar groupie stories are up, and I'm using keywords: rockstar, intimate, groupies, ffm. Are there other additions that would help?


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

***BUMP***

Curious to know how everyone is doing.

Sales So Far:

Rockin' Him Hard: 5 Sales 2 KU Borrows
Rockin' Him Harder: 3 Sales 1KU Borrow

I've started a new Scottish Erotic series that has been read by a betareader. Working on sending it to an editor. Cover is done. Writing a short every two weeks seems to be working for me. One week is really hard, but two weeks is do-able.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

I released a new pen name this month in order to test the KU waters. 

My sales: 3 shorts so far in a series - 

Book 1: 3 sales 4 borrows
Book 2: 1 sale 4 borrows
Book 3: 2 borrows (very recently released)

I can't really compare this to past pen name launches. These are horrible numbers for a pen name launch for me, but usually Book 1 would be permafree by now and fueling the series. I will have book 4 released next week and will use my free days on Book 1 to see if that bumps up the sales. So far, I hate KU, but it isn't like the experiment is done yet.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

skyle said:


> I plan on doing zero marketing or social networking (bar chatting here). I self edit and get my covers done on fiverr. So basically each book costs me only $5 to produce. They have all made back that back within a couple of hours of going live.
> 
> So yes, I can totally see the logic of having more titles out and therefore being more visible, but actually I don't think most erotica readers are as interested in following authors from book to book as in other genres.
> 
> I wonder if I would have more success if I got into marketing?


If you're making 200 on fifteen books w/o marketing that's good. I was gonna say the more books you have out there harder to market, so if you ever get to a point where you need to market keep that in mind. As for your Fiverr cover, I was thinking of trying that. Is there a certain cover artist you use?


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Feeling good about pushing the button on my third erotica story. It's turned into a new Scottish erotic tale which is more like an erom. Well, what can I say. I'm a sucker for romance. 

Now comes the 12 hour wait period. *sigh*

Meanwhile, going to celebrate with a little Merlot. Salut!


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

I write erotic romance, and I regularly make over 5 figures a month. I've been at it for a while though and have well over 100 titles under my belt. As Max said, publishing frequently has a lot to do with building the income snowball, especially when you're writing shorts.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

KMatthew said:


> I write erotic romance, and I regularly make over 5 figures a month. I've been at it for a while though and have well over 100 titles under my belt. As Max said, publishing frequently has a lot to do with building the income snowball, especially when you're writing shorts.


Hi, I don't have a hundred titles but I have a bunch. Do you promote and if so how. Also how do you keep all titles in play. Many of mine titles have fallen into irrelevancy


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

deedawning said:


> Hi, I don't have a hundred titles but I have a bunch. Do you promote and if so how. Also how do you keep all titles in play. Many of mine titles have fallen into irrelevancy


I keep my first in series free and throw a paid ad(bknight, genrepulse, or freebooksy) at them now and then to get new readers into my serials. Occasionally, I'll promo a boxed set or novel at $0.99 and throw a bunch of ads(bargain booksy, my romance reads, ebook soda) at it.

Mostly though, I just publish frequently and mail out to my list.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

lyndabelle said:


> Feeling good about pushing the button on my third erotica story. It's turned into a new Scottish erotic tale which is more like an erom. Well, what can I say. I'm a sucker for romance.
> 
> Now comes the 12 hour wait period. *sigh*
> 
> Meanwhile, going to celebrate with a little Merlot. Salut!


New short is up! Didn't take 12 hours. More like 5 hours. Weekday uploads work so much faster.

New title: Highlander Bride Taken
New Series: Scottish Erotic Tales

Nothing better than pushing that button. Now, going to celebrate with a nice Zin port. *raises shot glass*

Will be interesting to see how historical erotica sells.


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## eaconnor (Jul 29, 2014)

I recently did a free promo on my first title and it got 305 downloads, ending up number eight in the free gay erotica category, which was pretty cool. My second title is at over 20 borrows and it's been up a couple weeks. Hoping to get another out in the next couple of days. I feel like if I could just get myself to put stuff out consistently I would do well, I just have horrible issues with motivation.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

lyndabelle said:


> New short is up! Didn't take 12 hours. More like 5 hours. Weekday uploads work so much faster.
> 
> New title: Highlander Bride Taken
> New Series: Scottish Erotic Tales
> ...


Update on my new title:

Sales: 3
Borrows: 5

This is after two days. I like the new Scottish erotica theme. This is Tartan season, as in, lead up to Tartan Day on April 8th. I do Scottish Games and such, so this is fun to write. Nothing like a man in a kilt. ;-) Now, to get started on the next one.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

My dirtiest erotic story went live yesterday and has 5 borrows and 2 sales. A new sexy genre-bending story under a different pen name moves about one unit a day, disappointing, but not bad for an obscure topic outside of erotica. Maybe episode 2 will help it next week. Six new titles out so far for March. Releasing two new series next week. No promo on any of it. I keep tinkering with covers, blurbs, keywords and free days. 

Experimenting with keeping new bundles out of KU and I set my other bundles not to renew. 

The longer genre stories are helping me evade burnout. Two new stories outside of erotica hit the top 5 in two different subcats each on their free days, so I'm hoping there's enough interest to go as far as I want with those series.  

I want the forthcoming serials with longer episodes to catch on so I can ease up on the production schedule. Either that or have overall sales pop high enough so I can drop client work. I've been writing seven days a week since December.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

My sales for March are looking like this:
8 sales
10 borrows

This is for 3 shorts up right now. I'm going to launch a new one in the Scottish Erotica series this week. Waiting for beta reader to finish so I can go over comments, fix it up, and send it to my editor. 

Writing 2 shorts a month is keeping me going. Hopefully by the end of summer, some real income from this will make it easier to want to leave the day job.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Across 4 shorts (2 released this month, and 1 on 26 Feb, so almost this month lol):

Sales: 10
Borrows: 18

I've got one new short almost ready to go under a different pen name, which has been written very cynically to try and cash in on market trends. I hate writing like that, so it had better sell... I'm also involved in a group project which will go live at some point in early to mid-April.

If I don't have substantially better figures for April, I'll call it a day.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

With 7 shorts published between March 7th and two days ago, so about 3 weeks, I'm sitting at:
Sales - 34
Borrows - 147

*this is across 2 pen names, 4 on one and 3 on the other.


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## Sarah09 (Dec 14, 2014)

13 titles. They are not professionally edited, have quite a few grammatical errors, and ae not high literature. 

I make all of the covers. 

I push 40 to 70 borrows a day and 10 to 30 sales a day.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

I've just pushed the button on another title.
It's a follow-up to my Scottish Erotic Tales. I was really working hard to get it done today, National Tartan Day in the US.
It's called "Highlander Bride Seduction". Still is in review. Hope it goes up soon. I think I might have hit a nerve with this series. I get searches now for scottish erotica, and people are finding my website/blog that way now. So, "Keep the Writing Flowing" formula is working. Besides, it really puts my Ren. Fair/Scottish Games experience to good use. I've worn nobles gowns. I have 3 hanging in my closet now. I played Head Lady in Waiting to Mary, Queen of Scots for over 3 years. You learn a lot when doing historical reenactments. Glad I found a story that uses all the experience.

I keep getting borrows more than sales. But I'll take any way money wants to be made.


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## delly_xo (Oct 29, 2014)

Sarah09 said:


> 13 titles. They are not professionally edited, have quite a few grammatical errors, and ae not high literature.
> 
> I make all of the covers.
> 
> I push 40 to 70 borrows a day and 10 to 30 sales a day.


Hi Sarah09 - are you promoting at all? Also, are they in a series or all unrelated?


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## Sarah09 (Dec 14, 2014)

delly_xo said:


> Hi Sarah09 - are you promoting at all? Also, are they in a series or all unrelated?


One is an unfinished serial. The best seller is 30k words. Second bestseller is 12k words. They are more romance with a lot of eroticism. Only one of them is in placed in the erotic category. The others are placed in romance usually. I do some promotion. I use a lot of Bk Knights on Friday and have the free days on Friday and Saturday, sometimes Sunday. This has helped the titles do very well after the promotion is over for some reason. One was at 16k ranking before the free promotion. Afterwards it has hovered around 4k to 8k for two weeks. Write in non-vanilla categories. Gay is popular. Threesomes, foursomes, but have some story in it and an emotional connection and relationship between the characters.


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## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

Sarah09 said:


> 13 titles. They are not professionally edited, have quite a few grammatical errors, and ae not high literature.
> 
> I make all of the covers.
> 
> I push 40 to 70 borrows a day and 10 to 30 sales a day.


Sounds pretty good to me!


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Sarah09 said:


> One is an unfinished serial. The best seller is 30k words. Second bestseller is 12k words. They are more romance with a lot of eroticism. Only one of them is in placed in the erotic category. The others are placed in romance usually. I do some promotion. I use a lot of Bk Knights on Friday and have the free days on Friday and Saturday, sometimes Sunday. This has helped the titles do very well after the promotion is over for some reason. One was at 16k ranking before the free promotion. Afterwards it has hovered around 4k to 8k for two weeks. Write in non-vanilla categories. Gay is popular. Threesomes, foursomes, but have some story in it and an emotional connection and relationship between the characters.


Sarah, this sounds like a good formula. I like the free days on Friday or Saturday. Do you usually make the ones first in the series free?

Update from post a few back:

It took awhile to have the new Scottish Erotic short go up. Could be because it was a Monday. But it was available at 1:30am. It kind of put a damper on my Tartan Day release plans. But at least I locked in the date of publication.

Here's the new title: Highlander Bride Seduction (Scottish Erotic Tale #2)

I got it listed on my Amazon Author page if you want to take a look.

I've got a mailing list going now, and Facebook page with over 1,000 friends. So, at least there is a base of fans/readers to send it out to. So, thankful for that. Just got to crank out the next rockstar erotica, and I'll have wrapped up that series. The stories are getting more erotic romance, esp. the Scottish short. But I'm going with the flow.

I'd like to try a vampire erotic tale next. Anybody having luck with those?


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Sarah09 said:


> One is an unfinished serial. The best seller is 30k words. Second bestseller is 12k words. They are more romance with a lot of eroticism. Only one of them is in placed in the erotic category. The others are placed in romance usually. I do some promotion. I use a lot of Bk Knights on Friday and have the free days on Friday and Saturday, sometimes Sunday. This has helped the titles do very well after the promotion is over for some reason. One was at 16k ranking before the free promotion. Afterwards it has hovered around 4k to 8k for two weeks. Write in non-vanilla categories. Gay is popular. Threesomes, foursomes, but have some story in it and an emotional connection and relationship between the characters.


This is interesting. I am seeing a few more menage series right now. Meg Watson and Marie Carnay are doing really well with their menage books.


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## Sarah09 (Dec 14, 2014)

lyndabelle said:


> Sarah, this sounds like a good formula. I like the free days on Friday or Saturday. Do you usually make the ones first in the series free?


No. Most of the things are standalones.



katetanner said:


> This is interesting. I am seeing a few more menage series right now. Meg Watson and Marie Carnay are doing really well with their menage books.


Yeah, the more explicit the better, but it has to have romance in it. I find that pure erotica doesn't do as well, and doesn't have staying power. I have yet to tap into the whole shapeshifter thing, which still seems to be going stronger.


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## Al Schneider (Feb 14, 2011)

Well, judging by the number of Erotica titles on Indie Book Lounge (almost 500), it seems to be going well.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm seeing some names coming up in other threads that are interesting. Hannah Ford is one. She's the 10th most popular author in Romance right now. People were wondering what she is doing must be working. She started in January serializing billionaire shorts. Maybe finishing all the stories and then releasing works. A lot of reviews are complaining about having to wait for the next episode/book. They don't like the short length, but are still buying it. Or are really using their Kindle Unlimited membership to follow the series. Maybe that's the secret. Somehow appealing to the Kindle Unlimited crowd will get things going. I do notice that seems to be a sweet spot for sales. I'm still getting 3 borrows to one sale.

Here's her author's page: http://www.amazon.com/Hannah-Ford/e/B00TEMQK54/ref=kar_mr_158566011_10

Oh, and started the next short in my rockstar erotica series. Still writing at that pace of one short every two weeks. What's a woman to do?


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

lyndabelle said:


> I'm seeing some names coming up in other threads that are interesting. Hannah Ford is one. She's the 10th most popular author in Romance right now. People were wondering what she is doing must be working. She started in January serializing billionaire shorts. Maybe finishing all the stories and then releasing works. A lot of reviews are complaining about having to wait for the next episode/book. They don't like the short length, but are still buying it. Or are really using their Kindle Unlimited membership to follow the series. Maybe that's the secret. Somehow appealing to the Kindle Unlimited crowd will get things going. I do notice that seems to be a sweet spot for sales. I'm still getting 3 borrows to one sale.
> 
> Here's her author's page: http://www.amazon.com/Hannah-Ford/e/B00TEMQK54/ref=kar_mr_158566011_10
> 
> Oh, and started the next short in my rockstar erotica series. Still writing at that pace of one short every two weeks. What's a woman to do?


She's not putting her books under erotica. There's a thread about Hannah Ford on here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,211717.0.html.

Writing under romance these authors can get away with things erotica authors cannot. Some of the stepbrother romances cross lines and take risks, some are written by famous erotica authors. 
I don't know how things are going for anyone who writes PI erotica right now. I'm seeing a lot less PI erotica (less stepfather stories) and so much more stepbrother romance.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

I bet it depends on style too. I started reading the Hannah Ford stories. They are definitely story driven. My writing style is starting to follow that. Erotic romances just seem more interesting, and work better I think for my style. I'm having a lot of fun with my Scottish Erotic tales, and the rockstar groupie series. So, they could just be it. Good writing will build an audience for any genre. Hannah has definitely got the touch.

I've gone through my sales for January, February, and March. I'm doubling sales each month. Granted, it's down in the prawnie range of coffee being paid for to a few meals, but that is showing me I'm getting somewhere. Another few months of doubling the income, and I might have some real money to help me coming in. My goal right now is to make enough to pay my mortgage. I've had some medical issues lately, with a lot of time on my hands now. I just as well do something useful with all this time. Nothing like this erotica experiment to try out a writing income plan.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

I've been out of the game for so long.. too long really. But I really need to jump back in. I'm watching friends do really well by putting serials into Kindle Unlimited. 

Also, it seems like Romance with a some heat, is selling a lot better than pure erotica right now. 

Definitely seeing the shape-shifter trend do well for folks, but you really have to write that genre well. It has picky readers. 

So lurking here and elsewhere to see what's up and try to get back into putting stuff out there. 

Thanks for the thread!


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

lyndabelle said:


> I bet it depends on style too. I started reading the Hannah Ford stories. They are definitely story driven. My writing style is starting to follow that. Erotic romances just seem more interesting, and work better I think for my style. I'm having a lot of fun with my Scottish Erotic tales, and the rockstar groupie series. So, they could just be it. Good writing will build an audience for any genre. Hannah has definitely got the touch.
> 
> I've gone through my sales for January, February, and March. I'm doubling sales each month. Granted, it's down in the prawnie range of coffee being paid for to a few meals, but that is showing me I'm getting somewhere. Another few months of doubling the income, and I might have some real money to help me coming in. My goal right now is to make enough to pay my mortgage. I've had some medical issues lately, with a lot of time on my hands now. I just as well do something useful with all this time. Nothing like this erotica experiment to try out a writing income plan.


Yeah erotic romance PI and billionaire novellas are hot right now, the books are usually put under contemporary romance or new adult romance. I can see why Hannah is doing so good, i stopped buying and reading at book 2 but i can see why she's doing so well. As you said she's got the touch. Steamy romance novellas are doing great right now in KDP.

I like a good rockstar romance.

Sorry about your medical issues, I hope your health improves. Good luck with your series.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

skyle said:


> I plan on doing zero marketing or social networking (bar chatting here). I self edit and get my covers done on fiverr. So basically each book costs me only $5 to produce. They have all made back that back within a couple of hours of going live.


Then I would say you should put more money into your product. Spend a bit more on your covers and hire an editor. Give yourself an advertising push out the door. Right now it seems like you're treating it more like a hobby, and you're earning hobby money, but with your work ethic, a bit more effort on the packaging and release side, you've got some tools to move it to the next level.


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## Adrien Walker (Sep 11, 2014)

Sarah09 said:


> 13 titles. They are not professionally edited, have quite a few grammatical errors, and ae not high literature.
> 
> I make all of the covers.
> 
> I push 40 to 70 borrows a day and 10 to 30 sales a day.


Insane. Do you purchase saucy images for your covers, or are they completely from scratch?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

katetanner said:


> Yeah erotic romance PI and billionaire novellas are hot right now, the books are usually put under contemporary romance or new adult romance. I can see why Hannah is doing so good, i stopped buying and reading at book 2 but i can see why she's doing so well. As you said she's got the touch. Steamy romance novellas are doing great right now in KDP.
> 
> I like a good rockstar romance.
> 
> Sorry about your medical issues, I hope your health improves. Good luck with your series.


I released my first steamy romance. It got a couple of sales so far, but my erotica actually does better. That might be because those are the readers I have on my mailing list, though. Also, I think I'm better with erotica keywords.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Got a new erotic short idea? Any market or kink for vacation romances? Or is it more an erom? I'm heading more eroms really. Thought I'd combine some good times in Hawaii with inspiration from watching the British bad boys in Saving A Prayer. Love it when I come up with a new idea for a series. ;-)


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Personally, I'm not doing that good. What sites do you erotica writers promote on. Or if you don't where do you promote?


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## Eric S. Kim (Oct 22, 2014)

So far, a total of five m/m short stories are on Kindle. I will be writing and publishing more for the remainder of this year, and maybe more next year. So far, sales are small, but I'm hoping it will grow.


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## Callaghan (May 5, 2014)

deedawning said:


> Personally, I'm not doing that good. What sites do you erotica writers promote on. Or if you don't where do you promote?


I like this website for free promotion: newotica

_sorry -- direct links to erotic content is not allowed. Please review Forum Decorum_


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## JessicaNyman (Apr 26, 2015)

Hey folks!
I just started publishing a series of erotic romance, but I listed it under erotica categories so I guess I did it wrong. I think my series is more of a steamy romance than erotica. I have sales and KU borrows but not a whole lot, I wonder if I should put them under romance instead of erotica? I'm a total newbie so I wonder if it hurt my sales potential to put my titles under erotica, since they aren more erotic romance than true erotica.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

JessicaNyman said:


> Hey folks!
> I just started publishing a series of erotic romance, but I listed it under erotica categories so I guess I did it wrong. I think my series is more of a steamy romance than erotica. I have sales and KU borrows but not a whole lot, I wonder if I should put them under romance instead of erotica? I'm a total newbie so I wonder if it hurt my sales potential to put my titles under erotica, since they aren more erotic romance than true erotica.


I was advised to do just that by other authors. Some of my stories were just that erotica and I couldn't get away from that, but a large quantity were basically romance with sex so I started using the words adult and mature instead of erotic. Eventually I asked support to take these books out of the dungeon and they did take a lot of them out. There's still a few beside the actual erotic ones under the adult filter so I'll wait a few more months and see if they will.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

MistyMNB said:


> I like this website for free promotion: newotica


Thanks, I give er a try.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

MistyMNB said:


> I like this website for free promotion: newotica


Thanks! I've been looking for places to promote. We should gather a thread just for erotica promotion. ;-)


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

MistyMNB said:


> I like this website for free promotion: newotica


Hi I checked. Newotica is just as the name implies. It's for new books only. Some of my books go back ten years. My latest is probably two months old Can you recommend something I could put older books on?


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## Callaghan (May 5, 2014)

The Fussy Librarian will accept older books (pretty sure!), particularly with their requirements of 10 reviews and a minimum 4.0 rating.  They have a Romance-Erotic slot for advertising that is $10.

One strategy I've used is put all the focus on promoting a brand new book and make sure all the links are there in the book for my author page and backlist. That way you are getting the biggest boost with the new release magic dust and hopefully it rolls over to the older titles.

You could also take some of those older books, bundle them up and you'll have a brand new release. Could add several of those bundles to your catalog plus a new single release and see if that prompts some sales.

Also, KU, KU, KU, KU. Did I say KU?


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

MistyMNB said:


> The Fussy Librarian will accept older books (pretty sure!), particularly with their requirements of 10 reviews and a minimum 4.0 rating. They have a Romance-Erotic slot for advertising that is $10.
> 
> One strategy I've used is put all the focus on promoting a brand new book and make sure all the links are there in the book for my author page and backlist. That way you are getting the biggest boost with the new release magic dust and hopefully it rolls over to the older titles.
> 
> ...


Actually, I started adding my books that hadn't sold more than 2 books in the last 90 days on Apple/B&N/Kobo. I've loaded forty so far. I only have seven or eight books with ten reviews and 4+ rating and sales on Fussy Librarian for me are nothing to get excited about.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

deedawning said:


> Actually, I started adding my books that hadn't sold more than 2 books in the last 90 days on Apple/B&N/Kobo. I've loaded forty so far. I only have seven or eight books with ten reviews and 4+ rating and sales on Fussy Librarian for me are nothing to get excited about.


I think I know how to turn your ship around. First, don't do any promotion yet. Your issue is covers - they are simply not what the market is used to and what it recognizes as professional looking. Fancy Lady is best of all, but font work is very hard to read, so that needs fixing too. Go to top 100 romance erom, look at covers. Notice trend. Tip - upclose shots of guys w abs and tattos. Dominant stuff, BUT not "this was taken from some softcore shoot' look that yours look as. More grey, dark, etc. You need a designer, get one for cheap, ask someone here for a good person on fiver (5 a cover) or get someone who can do 10 of yours for $50 - maybe an elance job. Your blubs and writing are fine, covers are whats killing you. My .02. For promotion - get into kindle unlimited NOW. You're all under the same name, GREAT. Put one book free for 5 days. Then another. Repeat until you've cycled 20% of your stock. If you have 
book 1 in series, DO NOT put that book free, put the last book free. You have a lot of potential to make money here, everything is ready to go - you just need those covers and the KU free promos. Good luck


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## SofiaM (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm not in KU for my titles.  Maybe the market is glutted, I thought, so I went wide through D2D and also put the books Google Play because I was getting 0 borrows and almost no sales.

The nice thing is, I got some wonderful reviews on B&N, and I sell more there than on Amazon.  Nothing much on Google Play, except some downloads of the first in the series, probably because it's free--and they do want the free books.

I think the authors who don't put erotic as their main category are probably smart.  The only problem is that I got some 2 star reviews on Amazon because readers didn't seem to realize the books were steamy.  I checked the 2 star reader's other reviews and many had lots of religious books that they reviewed.  Whoa - totally wrong audience.  

So now I added "Mature readers 18+" to each of the books blurb, so even if romance is the category, I hopefully won't get readers who hate the books just because they have some explicit details and scenes.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

MistyMNB said:


> The Fussy Librarian will accept older books (pretty sure!), particularly with their requirements of 10 reviews and a minimum 4.0 rating. They have a Romance-Erotic slot for advertising that is $10.
> 
> One strategy I've used is put all the focus on promoting a brand new book and make sure all the links are there in the book for my author page and backlist. That way you are getting the biggest boost with the new release magic dust and hopefully it rolls over to the older titles.
> 
> ...


I second the KU. That's where a lot of my sales are coming from. I'm noticing once people find one book, they can do KU borrows through all of your others.


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## T. Scott (Mar 28, 2013)

skyle said:


> I plan on doing zero marketing or social networking (bar chatting here). I self edit and get my covers done on fiverr. So basically each book costs me only $5 to produce. They have all made back that back within a couple of hours of going live.
> 
> So yes, I can totally see the logic of having more titles out and therefore being more visible, but actually I don't think most erotica readers are as interested in following authors from book to book as in other genres.
> 
> I wonder if I would have more success if I got into marketing?


Who do you use to do your covers on Fiverr? And do they do gay covers (which is the genre I'm currently working in).


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Has anyone seen Cassandra Zara's author page http://www.amazon.com/Cassandra-Zara/e/B008GFU7UO/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1430503369&sr=1-2-ent.
_*(I hope it's ok to post this link to her amazon page)*_

Some of her books have been banned from Amazon. It says *As a result, all of Cassandra Zara's books that I still have control over will be completely removed from this website on May 4.*

There's an interesting discussion on reddit about this.

All i can say is wow. She is not the only author writing stepbrother romance or stepbrother erotica.

I wonder if the stepbrother romance trend is heading for trouble.


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

katetanner said:


> Has anyone seen Cassandra Zara's author page http://www.amazon.com/Cassandra-Zara/e/B008GFU7UO/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1430503369&sr=1-2-ent.
> _*(I hope it's ok to post this link to her amazon page)*_
> 
> Some of her books have been banned from Amazon. It says *As a result, all of Cassandra Zara's books that I still have control over will be completely removed from this website on May 4.*
> ...


I'm confused...so you're saying Amazon has banned her from writing stepbrother romance stories on the site? If so...wow...


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Fictionista said:


> I'm confused...so you're saying Amazon has banned her from writing stepbrother romance stories on the site? If so...wow...


*Modified because I am confused by what has happened between Cassandra and Amazon. *

She has some info on her amazon page but it is not very clear if some of her books are being banned or she's not allowed to write anymore stepbrother stories. Maybe someone else understands what has happened.

She is removing some of her books, they will be available until May 4th. I am reading the reddit discussion.

She has the image 'banned' clearly on her author page.


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## batmansero (Oct 10, 2014)

The big 'banned' image is her profile avatar, so I'm guessing she chose that.  Quite effective.

As for the rest of the post below the avatar, it looks like her step books will be removed so as not to 'offend' Amazon.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

DGS said:


> f you have
> book 1 in series, DO NOT put that book free, put the last book free. You have a lot of potential to make money here, everything is ready to go - you just need those covers and the KU free promos. Good luck


Can I ask why you would say put last book in a series free and NOT the first?


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

April Ryder said:


> The big 'banned' image is her profile avatar, so I'm guessing she chose that. Quite effective.
> 
> As for the rest of the post below the avatar, it looks like her step books will be removed so as not to 'offend' Amazon.


If Amazon are offended by her stepbrother stories then they must be offended by the mass production of stepbrother romance stories coming out everyday. Some of these stories are erotic stories being put under contemporary romance.

After reading the reddit thread, to me it looks like they are focusing on the biggest author first, maybe this will be the end of this step trend.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

DGS said:


> If you have book 1 in series, DO NOT put that book free, *put the last book free*. You have a lot of potential to make money here, everything is ready to go - you just need those covers and the KU free promos. Good luck


I've never seen that before. I've seen some authors putting book 2 free, even onw author had book 2 and 3 free last week then you have to buy book 1.


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

katetanner said:


> If Amazon are offended by her stepbrother stories then they must be offended by the mass production of stepbrother romance stories coming out everyday. Some of these stories are erotic stories being put under contemporary romance.
> 
> After reading the reddit thread, to me it looks like they are focusing on the biggest author first, maybe this will be the end of this step trend.


I'm pretty sure it's the stepbrother thing + breeding that they don't like. They are very against the whole breeding niche. They bury or remove it. And when you add the pseudo-incest into that, it has a high probablity of getting taken out of the store, not just adult-filtered. Right before the release of her sequel, Cara Bristol had to fight to get her book Breeder, which is sci-fi erotica, put back in the store after it was blocked. It's still adult filtered, but at least it's back for sale.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Daizie said:


> I'm pretty sure it's the stepbrother thing + breeding that they don't like. They are very against the whole breeding niche. They bury or remove it. And when you add the pseudo-incest into that, it has a high probablity of getting taken out of the store, not just adult-filtered. Right before the release of her sequel, Cara Bristol had to fight to get her book Breeder, which is sci-fi erotica, put back in the store after it was blocked. It's still adult filtered, but at least it's back for sale.


Yeah, that's probably a big part of it, the breeding. Not so much that it's just a step romance but there's the getting pregnant for my stepbrother title and story.


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## curtpurcell (Apr 7, 2015)

Daizie said:


> They are very against the whole breeding niche.


Why? Where's the harm, from their (or anyone's) point of view?


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

curtpurcell said:


> Why? Where's the harm, from their (or anyone's) point of view?


Breeding with your stepbrother or stepdad or older man babysitter type breeding erotica are/were getting banned on Amazon.

As I said, now i've read the reddit thread i understand it more.

A few erotica authors are writing these type of stories and putting them under contemporary romance or new adult romance. I suppose Amazon has caught on and are doing something about it.

That's my take on it.


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## JessA (Jul 17, 2014)

katetanner said:


> As I said, now i've read the reddit thread i understand it more.


Could you post a link so the rest of us could understand too?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

JessA said:


> Could you post a link so the rest of us could understand too?




__
https://www.reddit.com/r/34bvna/amazon_is_nixing_cassandra_zaras_entire_catalog/
 is the reddit thread.

It's misleading because Amazon isn't taking down CZ's catalog. CZ decided to pull the titles.


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## JessA (Jul 17, 2014)

thank you


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

KelliWolfe said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/34bvna/amazon_is_nixing_cassandra_zaras_entire_catalog/
> is the reddit thread.
> 
> It's misleading because Amazon isn't taking down CZ's catalog. CZ decided to pull the titles.


It's very misleading. So some of her books will be gone by the end of Monday. That's a big decision she's made. Even though erotica authors write fast, to take down a bunch of your books is a big move.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

According to her Amazon author page, it reads like she will be removing everything. 
I will be looking on Tuesday to see if it is true or she is doing this for publicity. 
I do believe if I remember the TOS correctly,  some of the books were against the TOS.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

None of the books were against the TOS. Although "whatever you expect" can cover a lot of ground, I suppose.

The fundamental issue is that if you publish erotica Amazon considers your KDP account untrustworthy and will not extend you the benefits normally offered to rockstar sellers (like Hugh Howey). So if you make a big pile of $$$ writing erotica and want to transition to "legitimate" genres as your main source of income there can be difficulties.

CZ is a bestselling romance author under a different pen name - but on that same account. Amazon invited CZ to a meeting to discuss the future of that pen name, but when CZ got to the meeting they trashed the CZ pen name instead. So in order to "reform" the romance pen name the CZ erotica catalog is being purged.

Amazon hates erotica and would love to stop selling it, but it's simply too much of a cash cow for them to justify doing so. It amounts to millions of free dollars for them every month, and as a company that operates on razor thin margins they can't afford to give it up. That doesn't mean that they don't act like complete douchebags to erotica writers when they get the chance, regardless of how much money you may make them.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Kelli,
Have you had any problems personally with Amazon?  Also excuse me for being skeptical but did you actually see the correspondence between Amazon and CZ?  
Or was it more a he said/she said kind of thing?  
The last few people I have heard that said "big name company said x", turns out x was not said but the people saying that were just trying to stir the pot in an attempt to bully the company. 

Little proof please.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes, I have personally had problems with Amazon. Since I started publishing erotica in 2011 my opinion of them as a business partner has steadily plummeted. I publish on every major ebook retailer and a number of the smaller ones and none of them treats erotica authors the way that Amazon does. Their behavior is a big part of the reason why I'm pushing hard to move into other genres and get out of writing erotica completely.

I've had some interaction with CZ on the erotica authors forum in the past. Not a *lot*, but some. My personal impression is that CZ is 100% business focused and has no interest at all in drama. This is someone who has worked insanely hard to get to this position, and has done it twice - in erotica and then in romance as well, on separate pen names. CZ is one of the (few) erotica authors who does not categorize erotica stories in other genres and has consistently played by the rules - until Amazon changed them without notice. I have no reason to doubt CZ's integrity, and based on my experiences and those of others that I know dealing with Amazon I have no trouble at all believing that they would behave this way. No trouble at all. IIRC Selena Kitt has posted a couple of instances on her blog where they've treated her quite shabbily as well. They don't care who you are or how much money you bring in; if you're writing erotica they consider you dirt and treat you as such when they can.

These are after all the same people who change their content policy without warning and then blame the author/publisher for having books in their catalog that violate that policy - even if those books have been there for years and have passed through review multiple times. I've had that happen personally a great number of times, and the content people then act as though the policy was *always* that way and you're some kind of lying scumbag trying to violate their (nonexistent) rules when you ask about it. I know people who have gotten their accounts banned for content violations over books that had been unpublished long before some part of the content policy changed.

They have the best storefront and the biggest share of the market, but as an erotica author I would rather deal with any other distributor over Amazon.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Thanks Kelli.    No longer skeptical.  I remember Selena having problems.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Kelli, thanks for explaining the situation. I've never understood Amazon's treatment of Erotica authors. They hide their books, they ban their books, they change the rules on these authors in a flash but they make a nice little profit off these authors. 

I am just wondering if the Stepbrother romance trend is in trouble. Some of those books are erotica being put under contemporary or new adult romance.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

katetanner said:


> Kelli, thanks for explaining the situation. I've never understood Amazon's treatment of Erotica authors. They hide their books, they ban their books, they change the rules on these authors in a flash but they make a nice little profit off these authors.
> 
> I am just wondering if the Stepbrother romance trend is in trouble. Some of those books are erotica being put under contemporary or new adult romance.


I suspect that, in most cases, it's feedback from customers that drive their business decisions at a corporate level, and not any personal judgement by the staff.


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## N.D. Taylor (Jun 17, 2014)

I just recently began to write erotica and only recently returned to this forum.
Wait, what? We're not allowed to link to our erotica? Whoops!

What happened there? (10 pages of forum board is a LOT to read and skim through for deets lol)

As far as finances go, I'm so glad I did this. We went from making a couple sales a day to tripling our income since putting out a couple erotica stories. I can't say enough how much it was worth it for me.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I suspect that, in most cases, it's feedback from customers that drive their business decisions at a corporate level, and not any personal judgement by the staff.


I don't think it has anything at all to do with customer feedback. There's good evidence in the cases of CZ and Selena Kitt that this kind of behavior goes far up the management food chain. The decisions to maintain a content policy which states nothing but "about what you'd expect" and to punish authors for inadvertent violations after the fact due to unpublished internal policy changes are not being made due to customer feedback. Banning someone's account for after the fact content violations on material that has already been withdrawn from publication is not due to customer feedback. The lower level staff who behave badly (and it's by no means *all* of them) do so because they know how management feels and they know they won't get called onto the carpet for it if anyone complains.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> CZ is one of the (few) erotica authors who does not categorize erotica stories in other genres


Actually, I remember browsing Amazon's Romance Short Reads lists and finding a CZ story titled "We Put the Baby in Sitter." It looked miscategorized to me, especially with its cover image.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I suspect that, in most cases, it's feedback from customers that drive their business decisions at a corporate level, and not any personal judgement by the staff.


I'd actually suspect it has more to do with outside media scrutiny.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Ava Glass said:


> Actually, I remember browsing Amazon's Romance Short Reads lists and finding a CZ story titled "We Put the Baby in Sitter." It looked miscategorized to me, especially with its cover image.


I have read that CZ is one of the only erotica authors who does not miscategorize her books but I have also seen some of her stories popping up in contemporary romance, new adult romance and women's fiction. Babysitter erotica does not belong in these categories. I'm sorry but when I search for romance and i see these lactation/taboo/kinky/knocked up babysitter or stepsister stories in the romance category i'm getting mad.

I have reported two authors who are doing it on purpose and their stories contain zero romance.

I think the only way this will stop is reviewers making complaints, outside companies/media side eyeing Amazon (as Briteka said) and some of the Amazon staff who don't want to see certain kinks being on Amazon's storefront.

The thing is if authors don't stop miscategorizing their erotica, then Amazon are going to do something about it soon and it will be something like the monster erotica clean up.

Just my 2 cents


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

To be fair to authors like CZ and Selena -- the issue isn't content. It's popularity. 

CZ's erotica was frequently hitting TOP categories and extremely popular. That's ok if you're E.L. James and backed by big publishing. It's not ok if you're an indie writing erotica. 

It's happened in the past and continues to happen. Amazon will either suppress your books with an "Adult" tag - thus tanking your pen name. Or strong arm you into submission.  

Especially, it you write both romance and erotica - which many do. So you can imagine the cross-pollination that happens there in terms of erotic books suddenly surfacing into the light of day. They never have liked that -- even back in 2011 during the erotica gold rush.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm beginning to think it may have been a mistake to start publishing in other genres under my erotica pen name. It seemed reasonable at the time. None of my titles or covers suggest anything underage or incestuous, and all of my outright erotica is categorized in erotica. It seemed likely there might be some crossover and that my sales might be better on a pen name with a catalog instead of a brand new one. 

Now it sounds as if my account may have the scarlet letter forever and be at risk for any future erotica purges. I've been following the 7-day Erotica challenge thread since December and some Reddit erotica threads for a few weeks. I've checked out websites by Selena Kitts and others and I get a strong sense that anyone's catalog can run into trouble. From what I understand of past anti-erotica events, it isn't only works that violate the nebulous, unstated and changing policies that get filltered/banned/purged.

Is there any protection in having a second Amazon account with no erotica in it? I mean openly, with my same name and SS#. My projects outside of erotica are doing much better than I expected and I don't want to risk losing my income here.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Secret Pen Pal said:


> Is there any protection in having a second Amazon account with no erotica in it? I mean openly, with my same name and SS#. My projects outside of erotica are doing much better than I expected and I don't want to risk losing my income here.


If you're set up with a different tax identification number it might be enough, but usually when I see people mentioning doing this, they've already had their one account suspended, so I'm not sure how Amazon would potentially respond if you had two accounts at the same time through that method...


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## Yakob76 (May 8, 2015)

I just curious as to the sort of word counts people aim for when writing a short?


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Yakob76 said:


> I just curious as to the sort of word counts people aim for when writing a short?


You might find this thread a little helpful, the subject is - *7 day erotica challenge*. 
Erotica authors are talking about their word count, sales, borrows and success and so on.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=196306.0


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## Yakob76 (May 8, 2015)

Thanks


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Secret Pen Pal said:


> I'm beginning to think it may have been a mistake to start publishing in other genres under my erotica pen name. It seemed reasonable at the time. None of my titles or covers suggest anything underage or incestuous, and all of my outright erotica is categorized in erotica. It seemed likely there might be some crossover and that my sales might be better on a pen name with a catalog instead of a brand new one.
> 
> Now it sounds as if my account may have the scarlet letter forever and be at risk for any future erotica purges. I've been following the 7-day Erotica challenge thread since December and some Reddit erotica threads for a few weeks. I've checked out websites by Selena Kitts and others and I get a strong sense that anyone's catalog can run into trouble. From what I understand of past anti-erotica events, it isn't only works that violate the nebulous, unstated and changing policies that get filltered/banned/purged.
> 
> Is there any protection in having a second Amazon account with no erotica in it? I mean openly, with my same name and SS#. My projects outside of erotica are doing much better than I expected and I don't want to risk losing my income here.


It's against theiir TOS and you can lose all your accounts it you do it. It's right on the first page of the TOS. I know because I unknowingly did it and when I realized it was against the TOS, I unpublished my erotica and called them, explaining they had even sent me 1099's showing my name and DBA: and names. He said yes, it was against their TOS and all we had to do was put the erotica under my regular account since I had used the same Tax ID, address, etc. The erotica when published from my same account as other stuff won't show anything about ME on the product page unless I type in my name or something. So, it's still a completely different pen name and no one knows it's me.

I also have a 3rd pen name for gay m/m romance under that same single account, but I DO want people to know it's Caddy Rowland, I put both names for authors and my name as publisher. I just want a different primary author name so people know it's romance, since more of my other stuff does not guarantee an HEA. It could be there, but is in no way romance.

So, just use your same account.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Learn the rules before you try to bend them.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Secret Pen Pal said:


> Is there any protection in having a second Amazon account with no erotica in it? I mean openly, with my same name and SS#. My projects outside of erotica are doing much better than I expected and I don't want to risk losing my income here.


You can have more than one KDP account, but not under the same name. An additional account(s) would need to be for a business entity separate from you. Someone who owns five different and distinct publishing companies, could have six KDP accounts--one for each business and one in their own name, for instance. But having two under the same name is against their TOS.

And yes, I believe having erotica on account could potentially be bad news if that erotica ever becomes super popular. It puts you on their radar. If it's not selling like gangbusters, *shrug*.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

Thanks for the responses everyone. 

Caddy, glad you got that sorted out. Good strategy on your branding. I'll probably claim the pen name works down the line. For now, the anonymity is freeing. 

I wrote to Amazon and they'll let me have a second account, maybe because I have a business name, too, as Shelleyo1 mentioned. 

I haven't decided about changing the pen name on the more recent works that fall outside of erotica. They're doing well just as they are. And I'm getting surges in erotica sales when I promote them. I'm thinking I'll wing one out under a new pen name as an experiment. 

So do people with more than three pen names usually just do without author pages on the other pen names? 

There seems to be more misinformation than facts available about the CZ situation, but it made me stop and look at the bigger picture.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

katetanner said:


> I have read that CZ is one of the only erotica authors who does not miscategorize her books but I have also seen some of her stories popping up in contemporary romance, new adult romance and women's fiction. Babysitter erotica does not belong in these categories. I'm sorry but when I search for romance and i see these lactation/taboo/kinky/knocked up babysitter or stepsister stories in the romance category i'm getting mad.


I have several step series that ARE romance, and they should not be put anywhere else other than romance. I have a feeling that romance can be written with any theme.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Secret Pen Pal said:


> Thanks for the responses everyone.
> 
> Caddy, glad you got that sorted out. Good strategy on your branding. I'll probably claim the pen name works down the line. For now, the anonymity is freeing.
> 
> ...


You're welcome. Yes, probably the business name is why.  Glad I could help.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Briteka said:


> I have several step series that ARE romance, and they should not be put anywhere else other than romance. I have a feeling that romance can be written with any theme.


I am not saying stepbrother romance does not belong in romance *when it is real romance* but when it is erotica (a 25 page getting my stepsister pregnant book, getting the babysitter pregnant, twin brothers have a quick menage with their stepsister or step bdsm) then it belongs in erotica.

I have read a few stepbrother romances that are genuine romances.

I am saying if your book is erotica then put it in erotica. I'm fed up of authors trying to game the system by hiding it in romance.

When i search for romance i want to see romance books, not lactation/erotic taboo/ageplay/medical erotica and breeding stories.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

How is everyone's month going?
Got out another short last week for my rockstar series. But it's still the Highlander/Scottish Erotic series selling/borrowing well. I consider myself to the half way mark of making some decent cash. We've talked about 10 being the magical marker of making some money. Maybe we should call it the Hopeful Ten? If I make the Dirty 30 by the end of the year, I'll be satisfied.

I've got another new short series in the works: setting is a vampire brothel. Been wanting to do a vampire series for awhile. I've got it to beta readers and then it will go to my erotica editor. I've decided to add people to the process which makes it a little longer, but I'm a perfectionist. I also think that quality in erotica makes it sell better. If people are paying money, it better be the best I can make it. ;-)

Numbers thus far for May:
Number of sales from 5 shorts: 6
Number of borrows from 5 shorts: 9

Going to have to put up the bronze selling badge. I'm out of prawnie range now. ;-)

Hope you all are having good sales this month.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

katetanner said:


> I am not saying stepbrother romance does not belong in romance *when it is real romance* but when it is erotica (a 25 page getting my stepsister pregnant book, getting the babysitter pregnant, twin brothers have a quick menage with their stepsister or step bdsm) then it belongs in erotica.
> 
> I have read a few stepbrother romances that are genuine romances.
> 
> ...


When I search for erotica I want to see erotica books, not HEA/lovey-dovey/relationship romance stories.

It's all well and good to get upset about it, but the thing is that the romance writers started doing it *first* trying to ride the 50 Shades coattails. They started cramming anything that had a steamy sex scene into the erotica categories because it was much easier to get visibility and traction there than in the much more highly competitive romance categories and the 50 Shades readers were voracious for the next thing. Given that one-on-one erotica titles simply cannot compete in the rankings with romance titles you can imagine what this did to the rankings of most erotica writers.

But no one cares about that. They just don't want to see that awful smut in *their* categories.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

Caddy -- Thanks also for mentioning the TOS. 

I took off out of erotica ahead of schedule and the new genre fiction projects account for most of my income. The erotica still sells, though. Did a new bundle to funnel more sales to the erotica backlist. April was my best month. 

I'm hoping the longer projects have more staying power.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> When I search for erotica I want to see erotica books, not HEA/lovey-dovey/relationship romance stories.
> 
> It's all well and good to get upset about it, but the thing is that the romance writers started doing it *first* trying to ride the 50 Shades coattails. They started cramming anything that had a steamy sex scene into the erotica categories because it was much easier to get visibility and traction there than in the much more highly competitive romance categories and the 50 Shades readers were voracious for the next thing. Given that one-on-one erotica titles simply cannot compete in the rankings with romance titles you can imagine what this did to the rankings of most erotica writers.
> 
> But no one cares about that. They just don't want to see that awful smut in *their* categories.


Those HEA books aren't miscategorized.

Amazon has a "romantic erotica" subcat under "erotica." That's where the HEA books in the bestseller list come from.

The "romance" bestseller subcategories don't list "erotic." "Romantic erotica" is the best place for those books--at least according to Amazon's flawed system.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

KelliWolfe said:


> When I search for erotica I want to see erotica books, not HEA/lovey-dovey/relationship romance stories.
> 
> It's all well and good to get upset about it, but the thing is that the romance writers started doing it *first* trying to ride the 50 Shades coattails. They started cramming anything that had a steamy sex scene into the erotica categories because it was much easier to get visibility and traction there than in the much more highly competitive romance categories and the 50 Shades readers were voracious for the next thing. Given that one-on-one erotica titles simply cannot compete in the rankings with romance titles you can imagine what this did to the rankings of most erotica writers.
> 
> But no one cares about that. They just don't want to see that awful smut in *their* categories.


Some romance authors were putting their books in romance erotica before because their books were romances with lots of steamy sex. It seemed like the right place to put those books. Now the romance erotica chart is an erotic category that is completely useless as it just contains the same books as the erotic chart. It is full of erotica. Romance authors do not want their books in erotica. I have not seen romance authors putting their books in the erotic cat, why would they. Maybe you noticed the odd author doing that but I have not.

i read erotica but no i don't want smut in other categories. I want it where it belongs. Erotica authors need to stop trying to game the system by putting their stories in every category but erotica. Imagine searching for a sweet romance or a college romance and finding a bunch of erotic books popping up.

Look at this thread and see what readers of other genres are facing when they search on Amazon now. They can search for something innocent not related to erotica but they get a bunch of erotica books popping up - http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,214566.0.html



Ava Glass said:


> Those HEA books aren't miscategorized.
> 
> Amazon has a "romantic erotica" subcat under "erotica." That's where the HEA books in the bestseller list come from.
> 
> The "romance" bestseller subcategories don't list "erotic." "Romantic erotica" is the best place for those books--at least according to Amazon's flawed system.


I agree if romantic erotica was a romance sub category not an erotic category. Amazon needs to change up and clean up.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Boyd said:


> Just wanted to quote this, in case it's later retracted.


Oh im not retracting that. I am a reader before I am an author and I want Amazon to clean up it's store. Create more sub-cat's for erotica and give those authors more exposure/visibility so they don't have to put their books in the wrong categories.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Been thinking about it. I would just merge the "romance" and "erotica" categories to create a large "romance and erotica" umbrella cat. It's not like ten or fifteen years ago. The line separating romance and erotica just gets blurrier and blurrier. Readers browsing the romance cats expect to see all sorts of heat levels in the listings, right?

Non-romantic erotica could be a subcat or a checkbox filter. Same for "clean" romance. Heat levels in general could be a filter.

This current system doesn't work.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Ava Glass said:


> Been thinking about it. I would just merge the "romance" and "erotica" categories to create a large "romance and erotica" umbrella cat. It's not like ten or fifteen years ago. The line separating romance and erotica just gets blurrier and blurrier. Readers browsing the romance cats expect to see all sorts of heat levels in the listings, right?
> 
> Non-romantic erotica could be a subcat or a checkbox filter. Same for "clean" romance. Heat levels in general could be a filter.
> 
> This current system doesn't work.


No i would not merge the romance and erotica categories. They are two different categories/genres.

*Erotica is read for the sexual exploration/sexual story/plot/turning the reader on.*

*Romance is read for the love story and the chemistry/connection between the characters, romance features a HEA/HFN.* It usually features sex but it could be fade to black sex (no description once the heavy kissing starts, we the reader don't get a description of the sexual act), it could be tame, it could be descriptive enough but not too racy (i'd say Jamie McGuire did that in Beautiful disaster) or it could be graphic and descriptive (as steamy as an erotic story or more steamy than an erotic story). With romance sex is not central to the story and it could be taken out all together.

I keep saying i would like to see some erotica sub-cats so that those authors don't have to lump all their books into the same one place (paranormal erotica is so different from taboo erotica). Also i think erotica authors need a little more visibility on Amazon and other stores. There is a huge audience who read these books and the sex industry has always been big business. With all the money Amazon makes, they could create a way for erotica authors to get more exposure and pretty much hide their books away from youngsters or anyone who does not want to find that sort of stuff.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Have you looked at the romance category recently? Realistically, the categories are merging. The differentiation these days is more based on heat level. Okay, the more porny titles have a certain crassness, and a lot of erotica is non-romantic, but that's what checkbox filters and subcats are for.

There's "Mystery, Thrillers, and Suspense" and "Science Fiction and Fantasy." Why not "Romance and Erotica"?

#1 book in "Romance" right now? _Knocked Up by the Bad Boy_.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Ava Glass said:


> Have you looked at the romance category recently? Realistically, the categories are merging. The differentiation these days is more based on heat level. Okay, the more porny titles have a certain crassness, but that's what checkbox filters and subcats are for.
> 
> There's "Mystery, Suspense, and Thrillers" and "Science Fiction and Fantasy." Why not "Romance and Erotica"?
> 
> #1 book in "Romance" right now? _Knocked Up by the Bad Boy_.


Still the readers of erotica and romance are different. Some people who read erotica do not read romance and vice versa.

They are different genres. Just because there are books like 'knocked up by the bad boy', there is clean romance or mild romance which does not feature heavy steamy graphic sex. Those readers would not appreciate to see erotica mixed in with their clean/mild romance. Just cause a bunch of authors are writing more streamy stuff now that does not mean the two genres have to merged.

Romance is about the connection/chemistry/two people spending time together getting to know each other and exploring their feelings, supporting each other. These stories can survive without the sex scenes.

I don't add very graphic sex in my books and a few of my readers have made it clear that they don't read graphic books/erotica. I have a few 50 something readers and a great grandmother who loves my books and likes that i don't include very graphic descriptions.

Erotica and romance should be seperate.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

A book about a wizard is different from a book about a starship captain. They're both under "Science Fiction and Fantasy." Subcategories separate them.

It's all about the filters and subcategories. That's the part I don't think you're understanding. Readers who want clean can find clean if they can click on a checkbox or a subcategory.

It doesn't make sense to put a bunch of titles out in "Literature and Fiction" when they have so much overlap with Romance anyway. There's a popular erotic suspense series with one installment in erotica and another in romance. It doesn't make sense. Put them together and let the readers use subcategories and filters to find what they want.



katetanner said:


> I have a few 50 something readers and a great grandmother who loves my books and likes that i don't include very graphic descriptions.


What do they do now? The romance cat is already full of sex. Adding erotica subcategories and and a heat filter wouldn't change much. Actually, it would make it easier for them to find the clean stuff they're looking for.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Ava Glass said:


> A book about a wizard is different from a book about a starship captain. They're both under "Science Fiction and Fantasy." Subcategories separate them.
> 
> It's all about the filters and subcategories. That's the part I don't think you're understanding. Readers who want clean can find clean if they can click on a checkbox or a subcategory.
> 
> ...


At the moment Amazon has romance in one place and erotica in another place. It makes sense. Readers should be able to just click on the cat they want and find the books they want easily. 
Some sub cats in erotica and sub more sub cats in romance would help to narrow down their search.

I feel like you are just looking at the current chart and thinking it's full of steamy romance stories so erotica and romance should merge, i don't think so. 
I think they should have their own sub-cats and allow those readers to find the books they want quickly.

If i want a clean romance i dont want to see erotica in there.
If i want a taboo erotica i dont want to see christian romance in there.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

katetanner said:


> If i want a clean romance i dont want to see erotica in there.
> If i want a taboo erotica i dont want to see christian romance in there.


Well, christian romance already has its own subcategory that shares an umbrella category with titles like _Knocked up by the Bad Boy_.

In the "Science Fiction Romance" subcategory clean titles mingle with "I'm an alien's sex slave" titles.

This is what it's already like.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Blue-Valentine-Sci-Fi-Romance-ebook/dp/B00TE7PHU8

This book illustrates how hard it is these days to distinguish between steamy romance, erotic romance, and erotica.

At first glance, you'd think "steamy romance." Actually, it's quite kink-driven. Domestic discipline BDSM plays a large role. There's spanking and anal punishment. So what is it? Erotic romance? Erotica?

ETA: I don't think Amazon has the resources to put all these these titles under a microscope and determine whether they are steamy romance, erotic romance, or erotica. We already know authors can't or won't do it. Amazon needs a realistic solution.

I think it might be doable to get authors of sex-free books to designate their books "clean" through keywords or whatever. That way, people can tick a box or click a subcat and find them.

ETA2: This is the category structure I'd propose:

*Romance and Erotica [Umbrella category]*
---Clean Romance
------various subcats

---Steamy and Erotic Romance
------various subcats

---Non-Romantic Erotica
------various subcats


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Ava Glass said:


> Have you looked at the romance category recently? Realistically, the categories are merging. The differentiation these days is more based on heat level. Okay, the more porny titles have a certain crassness, and a lot of erotica is non-romantic, but that's what checkbox filters and subcats are for.


No. I'm sorry, but this is completely wrong. Adding more/steamier sex scenes to a romance doesn't make it erotica, any more than supergluing wings to my house makes it a 747. They are two completely different things.

In erotica the focus is on the sexual interactions of the main character(s). There may be a relationship, but there doesn't have to be (*this* is what is properly categorized as romantic erotica, not romance with steamy sex thrown in). There may be a HEA/HFN ending, but there doesn't have to be.

In romance the focus is on the development of the romantic relationship between the characters and there needs to be a HEA/HFN ending. There can be as much or little sex of whatever degree of explicitness the writer wants, as long as the focus is on the romantic relationship and not the sex.

In a romance you can skip every single sex scene and still have a viable story. In erotica that's not the case. The sex *is* the story.

What you're talking about is what I was talking about earlier - romance writers dumping their books into erotica because they have some steamy sex. Or because they have an abusive alphahole male lead who is into kinky sex and not really particular about whether it's consensual or not. That still doesn't make it erotica. It's still a romance, with every element demanded by the genre present. And that's how it needs to be categorized if you want erotica writers to quit categorizing their "erotica with romance" in the romance categories.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

KelliWolfe said:


> No. I'm sorry, but this is completely wrong. Adding more/steamier sex scenes to a romance doesn't make it erotica, any more than supergluing wings to my house makes it a 747. They are two completely different things.
> 
> In erotica the focus is on the sexual interactions of the main character(s). There may be a relationship, but there doesn't have to be (*this* is what is properly categorized as romantic erotica, not romance with steamy sex thrown in). There may be a HEA/HFN ending, but there doesn't have to be.
> 
> ...


This is pretty much what I've been saying in my last few comments.

They are two different genres with their own readers. Romance does not have to feature one single sex scene. Romance is read for the love story and the chemistry/connection between the characters, it features a HEA/HFN.

Erotica is read for the sexual exploration/sexual story/plot/turning the reader on. The story could be about two people who have a connection that is explored over a period of time but it is focused on the sexual relationship/connection.

You are right, a romance book with kinky sex does not belong in erotica.

i'd like to see erotic romance moved over to the romance section

Then as i said above, i would like to see more erotica sub-cats.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I know one writer that put her romances in erotica because she was taught as a child any mention of sex or sexual innuendo is erotica.    She is a pretty good writer but her sex scenes are not graphic in any way.    I want the nitty and the gritty in erotica.  

As per 50 shades,  how about 50 shades of coffee?    Everyone and their chihuahuas tried to capitalize on 50 shades of gray.    
Yes that is an actual cookbook.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

But is it in the erotica section?


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

I was learned the difference between erotic and steamy romance years ago. My point is that the difference is getting blurry and irrelevant. 

We have an army of self-published authors who don't care, an army of readers who don't care, and a behemoth bookseller who doesn't care (as long a the book doesn't contain filterable or blockable elements).

What are the realistic options? Launch an education campaign to teach self-published authors the subtle differences? Try to get Amazon to devote an army of employees to read thousands of titles to determine whether there's still a story if the sex is taken out?

My solution is simple. Is there sex: Y/N? Is there romance: Y/N? The answers would sort books into clean romance, steamy/erotic romance, or non-romantic erotica.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

This is what Amazon mandates: 

Publishing Process Enter Book Information Selecting Browse Categories Erotica Category Keywords
Erotica Category Keywords
In order for a title to appear in the Erotica sub-categories below, the title's search keywords must include at least one of the keywords or phrases listed next to the sub-category. These categories and subcategories are specific to books listed for sale on Amazon.com; other marketplaces may not support these keywords.

Category	Keywords
Erotica/Action & Adventure	action, adventure, pulp
Erotica/Adult Fairy Tales	fairy tales
Erotica/BDSM	bdsm, bondage, sadism, masochism, submission
Erotica/Historical	historical
Erotica/Horror	horror
Erotica/Humorous	humor, humour, comedy
Erotica/Interracial	interracial
Erotica/LGBT/Bisexual	bisexual
Erotica/LGBT/Gay	gay
Erotica/LGBT/Lesbian	lesbian
Erotica/LGBT/Transgender	transgender
Erotica/Mystery	mystery
Erotica/Paranormal	paranormal
Erotica/Poetry	poetry, poem
Erotica/Romantic Erotica	romance
Erotica/Science Fiction	science fiction
Erotica/Suspense	suspense
Erotica/Thrillers	thriller
Erotica/Urban	urban
Erotica/Victorian	victorian
Erotica/Westerns	western
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Alpha Males	alpha male
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Angels	angel
Erotica: Erotica Characters/BBW	bbw, rubenesque
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Bikers	motorcycle, biker
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Billionaires	billionaire
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Cowboys	cowboy
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Devils & Demons	devil, demon
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Ghosts	ghost, spirit
Erotica: Erotica Characters/People in Uniform	uniform, police, military, nurse, maid, combat, doctor
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Rockstars	rock
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Shapeshifters	shifter
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Vampires	vampire
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Werewolves	werewolf
Erotica/Action & Adventure	action, adventure, pulp
Erotica/Adult Fairy Tales	fairy tales


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

We're debating whether or not there should be a "Romance and Erotica" category because erom and erotica authors are increasingly putting their books in Romance anyway.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ava Glass said:


> We're debating whether or not there should be a "Romance and Erotica" category because erom and erotica authors are increasingly putting their books in Romance anyway.


Simple answer: NO.
It is not Amazon's fault that some authors can't read. So why should they give in to those that don't know the difference?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Ava Glass said:


> My solution is simple. Is there sex: Y/N? Is there romance: Y/N? The answers would sort books into clean romance, steamy/erotic romance, or non-romantic erotica.


You keep excluding a majority of romance. There as a huge amount of romance books that fall in between clean and steamy/erotic. In fact I'd say that 80 % of the 1000's and 1000's of romances I have read fall in there. There are many levels before you got to erotic romance. It isn't just ER or clean. If one reads a lot of romance, once knows that.

Just because authors routinely mis-categorize their books, does not suddenly make 2 different genres the same. Erotica and romance are not the same. Oddly I hear only authors keep screaming that from the rooftops and often its those that keep asking questions about what romance is and really have no idea. Whats next, we'll combine thrillers and fantasy? All the same too, right?

I think I have heard it all now.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Ava Glass said:


> I was learned the difference between erotic and steamy romance years ago. My point is that the difference is getting blurry and irrelevant.


Actually, that's not true. I mean about the irrelevancy.

The only thing making it blurry is that people who prefer steamy over erotic are left annoyed and angry, but helpless because authors refuse to properly label their works.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Atunah said:


> It isn't just ER or clean. If one reads a lot of romance, once knows that.


No. There's sensual/steamy romance and erotic romance. They're not the same, but I don't think most readers would care if they got sorted together because that's how it already is. Did you see my example of the domestic discipline SF short? The author called it romance and readers _did not care_.



Atunah said:


> Just because authors routinely mis-categorize their books, does not suddenly make 2 different genres the same.


Who is going to enforce the subtle boundaries between steamy and sensual rom vs erom?



Atunah said:


> Whats next, we'll combine thrillers and fantasy? All the same too, right?


Thrillers are combined with mystery and suspense. Fantasy is combined with science fiction. Romance and erotica are a similar combo.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Simple answer: NO.
> It is not Amazon's fault that some authors can't read. So why should they give in to those that don't know the difference?


Clean romance and non-romantic erotica are obvious. The differences between sensual, steamy, and erom are harder to figure out. I guess publishers used to uphold the subtle boundaries, but we're in a different world.

Who is going to do it now? Amazon? Authors? All this "how it should be" talk isn't terribly practical.

Authors will categorize their books where it makes best economic sense.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

I'd be all for clean romance, sensual romance, steamy romance, erotic romance, and non-romantic erotica if authors could be trusted to put their books in the right categories.

I just think the boundaries have to be really obvious or else authors will miscategorize.


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## Guest (May 14, 2015)

My chest of drawers sometimes has white socks all mixed up with black socks. Even some red or blue socks.
I don't get bent out of shape about it.
Just plunge right in and sort through stuff until I get just what I want.
I don't have a hissy because they're all jumbled up.
Find what I want and get on with life.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Socks are far more fungible than book genres. In some cases the miscategorization makes it essentially impossible to find what it is that you're really looking for.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Socks are far more fungible than book genres. In some cases the miscategorization makes it essentially impossible to find what it is that you're really looking for.


Yes, I can see the difference between sock colors but if you miscategorize a book, I won't find what I want.
Sorry but Debbie does Dallas is not a romance. 
If I am looking for Debbie Loves Dallas then finding Debbie does Dallas in romance is going to irk me and I will remember the author miscategorized and not bother because what else did they get wrong when I am looking for erotica.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Atunah said:


> You keep excluding a majority of romance. There as a huge amount of romance books that fall in between clean and steamy/erotic. In fact I'd say that 80 % of the 1000's and 1000's of romances I have read fall in there. There are many levels before you got to erotic romance. It isn't just ER or clean. If one reads a lot of romance, once knows that.
> 
> Just because authors routinely mis-categorize their books, does not suddenly make 2 different genres the same. Erotica and romance are not the same. Oddly I hear only authors keep screaming that from the rooftops and often its those that keep asking questions about what romance is and really have no idea. Whats next, we'll combine thrillers and fantasy? All the same too, right?
> 
> I think I have heard it all now.


This is how i feel. I don't know why fantasy and sci-fi are lumped together, i don't read those genres. All i know is erotica and romance are two seperate genres and the audience is different. Romance readers can be very loyal but also very picky, critical and some voice their opinions in reviews, on blogs and forums. I say don't mess with these readers.

You are right there are several types of romances and some feature no sex and some feature graphic sex, somewhere in the middle there are several types of romances that are no where near erotica or erotic romance.

Just cause a bunch of authors are miscategorizing their books today, that does not mean the genres have to be merged. Just because books like 'Knocked Up by the Bad Boy' is high in the romance charts today does not mean we have to merge erotica and romance. There is tons of sweet romance that cannot be put in christian romance, those books are no where near the erotica category.

As Cinisajoy said, i don't want to search for romance books and get pure erotica popping up. It's so annoying and wastes my time.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Oooohhh. I thought Amazon's method of combining categories into large umbrella cats was known and understood. I see the confusion.

Here let me show you what Amazon does:

*Science Fiction & Fantasy*
--Fantasy (136,709)
----various subcategories
--Science Fiction (101,463)
----various subcategories

*Mystery, Thriller & Suspense*
--Crime Fiction (36,402)
----various subcategories
--Mystery (84,074)
----various subcategories
--Suspense (54,493)
----various subcategories
--Thrillers (72,316)
----various subcategories

Saying that erotica shouldn't share an umbrella category with romance is like saying thrillers shouldn't share one with mysteries.

This is how I'd do things:

*Romance and Erotica [Umbrella category]*
---Clean Romance
------various subcats

---Steamy and Erotic Romance
------various subcats

---Non-Romantic Erotica
------various subcats

Notice how a clean romance would only show up next to a non-romantic porny title if someone clicks on "Romance and Erotica." Most would click on the subcategory they want.

I can see why people would disagree with how I put steamy and erom together (I would include sensual as well), but this is how I see the Romance bestseller list already, and I don't think the majority of readers would care that much.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Ava Glass said:


> *Romance and Erotica [Umbrella category]*
> ---Clean Romance
> ------various subcats
> 
> ...


And you doing it again, leaving out the majority of romance. You completely ignored my earlier comment. The majority of romance is neither clean nor steamy. Which really means, you don't know the genre and so shouldn't really be trying to make such wannabe changes to it.

I already cannot use browsing anymore because erotica authors insist to stuff their stuff into romance. So now you think stuffing all daddy does betsy into romance will help readers somehow? I beg do differ. And I am pretty confident in saying that the majority of actual romance readers are with me on that.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

No, I just think we differ on our definitions. That middle category would include most mainstream romance. Does it have sex in it? Into the middle category it goes.

Do you have a better word that encompasses Courtney Milan and _Knocked up by the Bad Boy_?



> this is how I see the Romance bestseller list already, and I don't think the majority of readers would care that much.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ava,
Romance and Erotica are two entirely different species. 
Romance is about the relationship plain  and simple. 
Erotica is generally about the hot sex.
Yes, some romances have sex, heck so does Atlas Shrugged. 
Yes, some erotica has relationships, heck so does Lonesome Dove.

Just because some have something in common does not make them connected.
Just because some authors are not bright enough to put their books where they belong, doesn't mean the genres can be connected.

Yes, fudge sounds good.  So do peanut butter cookies.  That doesn't mean I want a Reeses Peanut Butter Cup.
Chocolate= Romance Peanut butter= erotica.    They don't always belong together.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

We're going in circles. All I can do at this point is requote what I've already said. I've already addressed all of these concerns.

This is too serious for what started as wistful brainstorming.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

You would classify Mary Balogh and Carla Kelly as steamy? Really? Okey dokey. 

Yeah, I have heard it all. 

Clearly, its not useful to have such discussions with someone that doesn't know the genres. That's ok. But it makes things much clearer now.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ava Glass said:


> We're going in circles. All I can do at this point is requote what I've already said. I've already addressed all of these concerns.


No, you are trying to put a lion and a giraffe together.

Why do you think the genres are even close?

Oh and not so subtle hint,
I am looking for new erotica. ..suggestions to my inbox always welcome.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Cozy mysteries are nothing like violent thrillers, yet they both share an umbrella category. Why is that?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

They are both mysteries. 

Now other than the potential sex, what makes Romance and Erotica similar?


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Atunah said:


> You would classify Mary Balogh and Carla Kelly as steamy? Really? Okey dokey.
> 
> Yeah, I have heard it all.
> 
> Clearly, its not useful to have such discussions with someone that doesn't know the genres. That's ok. But it makes things much clearer now.


Yup. No one is reading my posts.



> I'd be all for clean romance, sensual romance, steamy romance, erotic romance, and non-romantic erotica if authors could be trusted to put their books in the right categories.
> 
> I just think the boundaries have to be really obvious or else authors will miscategorize.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> They are both mysteries.
> 
> Now other than the potential sex, what makes Romance and Erotica similar?


Readers often know who the bad guy is in thrillers, so no.

If you can't see the overlap on the romance and erotica bestseller lists, then I don't know what else to say.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> No, you are trying to put a lion and a giraffe together.
> 
> Why do you think the genres are even close?
> 
> ...


How much reading time do you have?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Several hours... house is clean


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Bang (Black Lotus #1) _[Edit; link removed per Forum Decorum; replaced with name of book. --Betsy]_

http://www.amazon.com/Echo-Black-Lotus-E-K-Blair-ebook/dp/B00XJRERN2/ref=la_B00DMDOBM0_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1431654465&sr=1-7

Same series. Book one is in erotica. Book two is in romance. This is the reality.

This isn't a discussion on genre theory.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Ava Glass said:


> Bang (Black Lotus #1) _[Edit; link removed per Forum Decorum; replaced with name of book. --Betsy]_
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Echo-Black-Lotus-E-K-Blair-ebook/dp/B00XJRERN2/ref=la_B00DMDOBM0_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1431654465&sr=1-7
> 
> ...


The reality is that those books don't sound like they belong in *either* category. They sound far more like psychological thrillers than romance or erotica.

_Edited quoted post. --Betsy_


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> The reality is that those books don't sound like they belong in *either* category. They sound far more like psychological thrillers than romance or erotica.


Actually, I see that more as genre theory. To me , the reality is that author has tons of fans and sales. People look for those kinds of books in romance and erotica.

Picking apart genre like this isn't as useful in the new Amazon world. You can wag your finger at an author all you want, but if the author is making good money, the author isn't going to care. That is the new reality.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Really?  Because they make money at it, it's okay to miscategorize and screw up the searches for everyone who doesn't?


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

crebel said:


> Really? Because they make money at it, it's okay to miscategorize and screw up the searches for everyone who doesn't?


1) Do you really think that author is miscategorized? 2) I said authors aren't going to care so long as they are selling books, and that is the reality we have to deal with. What are some practical solutions?


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Ava Glass said:


> 1) Do you really think that author is miscategorized? 2) I said authors aren't going to care so long as they are selling books, and that is the reality we have to deal with. What are some practical solutions?


I haven't read the book(s), but from the blurbs and the reviews I was say they are absolutely miscategorized as "Romance", even as Romantic Suspense. Mystery, Thriller, Suspense make sense to me.

The practical solution is to put them in the categories to which they belong and not every category to which you wish they belonged, I don't think it can be any more simple.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Who is going to move the books? The authors? How would you convince them to give up romance's visibility? Amazon? How are they going to train an army of employees to understand the differences between subgenres? How would this work on a scale of thousands of books?


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Yes, it would be up to the authors to be ethical enough to choose the correct categories for their books from the get-go.  Obviously we can't convince them or it wouldn't be in the mess it is now.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Ava Glass said:


> Who is going to move the books? The authors? How would you convince them to give up romance's visibility? Amazon? How are they going to train an army of employees to understand the differences between subgenres? How would this work on a scale of thousands of books?


Apparently Amazon has no problem training an army who can decide that it's perfectly OK to publish a book about having dubiously consensual sex with your underage stepsister as long as it's categorized in romance but to block it if you so much as mention the word "stepbrother" in the title or blurb of a book categorized in erotica.

Which army actually has more benefit to the users of the store?


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

That example shows you how competent Amazon's reviewers are right now. You think they're going to understand the difference between erom and steamy?

Many _authors_ don't know the difference.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ava Glass said:


> That example shows you how competent Amazon's reviewers are right now. You think they're going to understand the difference between erom and steamy?
> 
> Many _authors_ don't know the difference.


Don't know or don't care. If they don't know the difference then how can they write a book? 
I thought you know that authors could uhm what is the word I am looking for, oh Yea read. 
Are you saying these authors are too stupid to actually read a book?
Oh well, miscategorize and I will assume the book will be laden with errors, outsourced for $5, and just a money grab.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Ava Glass said:


> That example shows you how competent Amazon's reviewers are right now. You think they're going to understand the difference between erom and steamy?
> 
> Many _authors_ don't know the difference.


That has nothing to do with the reviewers' competence and everything to do with *policy* at Amazon. Their policy is that all the things that will get your book blocked and your KDP account shut down in erotica are A-OK if you categorize your books as romance instead. Which is another incentive for people to miscategorize.

If Amazon can pay people to read _*every word*_ of my erotica stories to block the ones where I haven't explicitly stated in the text that all the characters are over 18 - when there is a disclaimer stating so at the beginning of every story in my catalog AND it is made clear implicitly in the text "two years ago when she was 16 she..." - then they could certainly devote some effort to cleaning up their categories _if they wanted to_.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

The bottom line is that people who don't like the way books are miscategorized (like me) should complain to Amazon.  Amazon does respond to its customers...

Betsy


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

Ava Glass said:


> Cozy mysteries are nothing like violent thrillers, yet they both share an umbrella category. Why is that?


They both share an umbrella category, because the category is *Mystery, Thriller, and Suspense*.
The fact that the category is listed as such, with all 3 words, recognizes that they not similar in *ALL* aspects.

If this is your argument for why Erotica should be included in Romance, then it is deeply flawed.
For this to make your argument relevant, the category would have to be *Romance and Erotica*.
But it's not, Romance and Erotica are separate.

They're separate because unlike Mystery, Thriller, and Suspense which have MANY similarities,
Romance and Erotica are *only similar* in that they both contain sex...and only sometimes in the case of many (clean or closed door or not explicit sex) Romances.

So your argument is actually:

How come *Mystery, Thriller & Suspens*e that may have 4 out of 5 similarities, gets joined together?

When *Romance & Erotica* that* only sometimes* have 1 of 5 similarities doesn't?


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

You guys really don't see the bridge erom has built between the two genres? 

We will all just have to agree to disagree.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Hi ya! Wondering how erotica authors have been doing.

I just pushed the button on a vampire brothel short. I tried my hand at BDSM and vampires all in one story. This is my sixth short in 3 1/2 months. Still averaging writing one short every two weeks.


Still selling an average of 1 sell or borrow a day. Trying to advertise some more. I actually splurged and bought an ad on an erotic blog, and I'm seeing a steady flow of sales for that short. I'm hoping that once I get people interested in one short, they'll read the others.

Plus, working on getting some teasers done, and a mini blog tour. 
Got costs down to about $60 a short. This includes beta readers, proof editor, and cover design. 

Shorts written so far: 6
Series: 3 series
Hot Groupies
Scottish Erotic Tales
Vampire Pleasures

Got ideas for 3 shorts for a vacation fling series. I want to somehow get in on the billionaire trend, mostly because I think alpha billionaires are hot. Will have to see where my thoughts lead me.  

How are the rest of you guys doing?


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## LeiyaJones (Jul 21, 2014)

lyndabelle said:


> Got costs down to about $60 a short. This includes beta readers, proof editor, and cover design.


That seems incredibly high for the return you're getting on them. That's two weeks of worth that you're only getting ahead on in costs after two months of consistent selling. I've only been publishing erotica for two weeks, have five books out, average about the same rate but I haven't spent a single penny on anything. Do you really need to spend that much money per short? I don't know of anyone in my circle of erotica writers who pay for anything but covers, and even then it's not usually anything more than $10 per, which is much easier to recover costs on and head back into profit.


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## ccruz (Oct 11, 2014)

Hi all! I've been doing close to one borrow a day with 5 erotic shorts. Am working on publishing a short a week, though I'm behind as always. I want to get one borrow a day and have no flat lines on my KDP report. That's my short-term goal. My long-term goal is a borrow a day on EACH of my titles.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> That has nothing to do with the reviewers' competence and everything to do with *policy* at Amazon. Their policy is that all the things that will get your book blocked and your KDP account shut down in erotica are A-OK if you categorize your books as romance instead. Which is another incentive for people to miscategorize.
> 
> If Amazon can pay people to read _*every word*_ of my erotica stories to block the ones where I haven't explicitly stated in the text that all the characters are over 18 - when there is a disclaimer stating so at the beginning of every story in my catalog AND it is made clear implicitly in the text "two years ago when she was 16 she..." - then they could certainly devote some effort to cleaning up their categories _if they wanted to_.


i'm pretty sure Amazon knew this would happen. You can choose two categories now for erotica. Unless my memory serves me wrong, you couldn't do that when I started publishing last year. I know Selena Kitt said on another thread they opened a door and they can close it any time. I keep my romance in romance and my erotica in erotica. That way I'll be on the right side when the door slams.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

lyndabelle said:


> Hi ya! Wondering how erotica authors have been doing.
> 
> I just pushed the button on a vampire brothel short. I tried my hand at BDSM and vampires all in one story. This is my sixth short in 3 1/2 months. Still averaging writing one short every two weeks.
> 
> ...


What is/are Hot Groupies?


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> What is/are Hot Groupies?


I forgot I have a free one today under a new pen name. She's doing okay for only having six stories. I'll send you a link right now. If you want it it's still free through tonight.


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## Bella Breen (May 24, 2015)

If you have a paranormal erotica book, when you publish can you put it in erotica and fiction/paranormal categories?  Or can you only choose erotica?  Will it even show up in the fiction/paranormal category?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

monamorabooks said:


> If you have a paranormal erotica book, when you publish can you put it in erotica and fiction/paranormal categories? Or can you only choose erotica? Will it even show up in the fiction/paranormal category?


I know you can choose two categories now and I've see a lot of erotica show up in other categories. As for personal experience I can't offer any, since like I said before, I just leave my erotica in erotica. I want to be doing this five years from now and Amazon doesn't have a problem banning erotica authors if they get enough complaints.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

ccruz said:


> Hi all! I've been doing close to one borrow a day with 5 erotic shorts. Am working on publishing a short a week, though I'm behind as always. I want to get one borrow a day and have no flat lines on my KDP report. That's my short-term goal. My long-term goal is a borrow a day on EACH of my titles.


That was my goal, but now that I have almost thirty titles up across two pen names, I find some books never really do sell more than a few copies. Others sell well enough to pick up the slack.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

cinisajoy said:


> What is/are Hot Groupies?


The girls that are groupies for a band I made up called Sweet Fire. There's a few of them in the story. It's rockstar erotica. I keep imagining the lead singer of Panic at the Disco! He's got dreamy eyes.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

monamorabooks said:


> If you have a paranormal erotica book, when you publish can you put it in erotica and fiction/paranormal categories? Or can you only choose erotica? Will it even show up in the fiction/paranormal category?


I just put up a vampire BDSM erotica romance short. I used these keywords: vampire erotica, erotica short stories, erotica for women, kindle unlimited, dominatrix vampires, erotic romance

It got listed in these categories:

Books > Literature & Fiction > Erotica > Romantic
Books > Romance > Paranormal
Books > Romance > Vampires
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Paranormal > Vampires

***Really important: list on a weekday. I got it listed on Friday before this holiday weekend. So, it didn't end up in the dungeon.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

lyndabelle said:


> I just put up a vampire BDSM erotica romance short. I used these keywords: vampire erotica, erotica short stories, erotica for women, kindle unlimited, dominatrix vampires, erotic romance


You're leaving money on the table by not targeting enough of the right keywords.  Amazon will give you a lot of the keywords you need by going to their home page and starting to type a given word. The suggestions it pops down with are there because a lot of people find their books with them. But if you're only using keywords mostly to get category placement and that's it, you'll miss out on sales that are necessary to propel you up into the charts for those categories.

It should probably look something more like this:

vampire romance erotica love sex fantasy story books novel fiction for adults Kindle Unlimited, bondage BDSM rope tied up sex submission sadism masochism domination dominance rough treatment slave spanking paddling punishment

These are all suggestions Amazon came up with, and it isn't necessary to say, for example, "vampire romance" "vampire erotica" "vampire love story", one vampire works, saving space for more keywords.


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## Scatterdown (May 3, 2015)

I'm writing what I thought was erotica, but it looks like it's romantic science fiction with VERY EXPLICIT scenes.

Who's more likely to be annoyed? The Erotica buyers or the romantic SF buyers?


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## Bella Breen (May 24, 2015)

lyndabelle said:


> I just put up a vampire BDSM erotica romance short. I used these keywords: vampire erotica, erotica short stories, erotica for women, kindle unlimited, dominatrix vampires, erotic romance
> 
> It got listed in these categories:
> 
> ...


When you chose your 2 categories, did you choose erotica and romance/erotica or didn't choose erotica as a category at all?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Sweet Amber said:


> You're leaving money on the table by not targeting enough of the right keywords.  Amazon will give you a lot of the keywords you need by going to their home page and starting to type a given word. The suggestions it pops down with are there because a lot of people find their books with them. But if you're only using keywords mostly to get category placement and that's it, you'll miss out on sales that are necessary to propel you up into the charts for those categories.
> 
> It should probably look something more like this:
> 
> ...


That's how I do mine except I get even more dirty and specific. Amazon has never given any indication to me that they mind. I've done keywords several way to experiment and I find the dirtier I get the more they sell.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

monamorabooks said:


> When you chose your 2 categories, did you choose erotica and romance/erotica or didn't choose erotica as a category at all?


I chose fiction/romance/erotica and fiction/romance/paranormal for my categories.


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## Bella Breen (May 24, 2015)

lyndabelle said:


> I chose fiction/romance/erotica and fiction/romance/paranormal for my categories.


Oh that's nice, because I had heard that if you choose erotica, then you won't show up for any non erotica category. But your screenshot proved that wrong. Awesome!


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Sweet Amber said:


> You're leaving money on the table by not targeting enough of the right keywords.  Amazon will give you a lot of the keywords you need by going to their home page and starting to type a given word. The suggestions it pops down with are there because a lot of people find their books with them. But if you're only using keywords mostly to get category placement and that's it, you'll miss out on sales that are necessary to propel you up into the charts for those categories.
> 
> It should probably look something more like this:
> 
> ...


I'm still working on getting better at doing the keywords. I did the search for what people looked for on Kindle from a suggestion in a "How to" for writing erotica. Believe me. I want people to find my book. Any key word suggestions are welcome. Thank you Amber. I've updated my keywords from what you suggested. Thanks! I want that money on the table.


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## JA55 (May 26, 2015)

Hi everyone.  I'm trying to take the plunge and start writing a series of romance/erotica shorts.  I'm just wondering what anyone thinks of the plausibility of this "business" model: 5-7k words per installment, weekly or bi-weekly, at $1.99.  Is this realistic/standard?

The word count is one thing I'm not sure on.  I've looked at some popular sellers on amazon's kindle section and a lot of them seem to come up on 30-60 pages (for "short reads") but I'm not sure how a Kindle page translates into wordcount.

And am I going to high on the price?  I've read that it can actually be a hindrance to your work to charge only .99, but will people be willing to spend $2 several times a week on the same writer?

Thanks, and I hope it's alright that I've asked in this thread.  Hopefully soon enough I'll be in a position to give advice back!


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> That's how I do mine except I get even more dirty and specific. Amazon has never given any indication to me that they mind. I've done keywords several way to experiment and I find the dirtier I get the more they sell.


Oh definitely, you should see my PI keywords.  My idea for a steamy vampire romance series I haven't started yet so my keywords were just the low-lying fruit, and the BDSM stuff I only used once but it wasn't the primary kink, so I definitely think there's a lot of room to, like you said, make them dirtier and more specific.  And it's a great indication that the customers want it _bad_ if the dirty words help boost sales. 



lyndabelle said:


> I'm still working on getting better at doing the keywords. I did the search for what people looked for on Kindle from a suggestion in a "How to" for writing erotica. Believe me. I want people to find my book. Any key word suggestions are welcome. Thank you Amber. I've updated my keywords from what you suggested. Thanks! I want that money on the table.


Cool, I hope they help!  Like I was mentioning above, when I concocted those BDSM keywords, the BDSM wasn't the primary kink, but I know they did something for the story because it was selling at at least the same stuff as the titles of that primary kink which didn't involve BDSM, yet the rankings the story had in the search results for the primary kink where much less than the other titles, which means a lot of the borrows and sales were coming from the BDSM keywords.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

JA55 said:


> Hi everyone. I'm trying to take the plunge and start writing a series of romance/erotica shorts. I'm just wondering what anyone thinks of the plausibility of this "business" model: 5-7k words per installment, weekly or bi-weekly, at $1.99. Is this realistic/standard?


I think it might depend on whether or not the shorts are much more erotica or much more romance. I write a series of 5-7k words, for example, but it's pure erotica. There's a story that frames it but it's not romantic, and each installment gets priced at $2.99 and it's done really well. When I think of how it'd be to write a steamy romance series, with short installments, I more automatically picture them having a length of 10-15k. $1.99 definitely _seems_ like a good compromise between $0.99 and $2.99 but everyone usually says that it's like the kiss of death. 

For example, if I was doing something similar to my series, but with more of a romantic element, I'd probably boost the word count to 10-12k, or 12-15k even, price the first one at $0.99 and the rest at $2.99, with the caveat that I'd work in around 5k of actual, full sex scenes to feel like I delivered on the $2.99 price point - the $0.99 on the first of the series would be more as a promotional lead-in (another alternative would be to keep the first one out of KU and get it permafree... or to switch to that after the first three months). Otherwise I've seen it a lot where more romance-orientated serial shorts are all at $0.99, unless it's a more well-known offer that can swing asking for $2.99.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Sweet Amber said:


> Oh definitely, you should see my PI keywords.  My idea for a steamy vampire romance series I haven't started yet so my keywords were just the low-lying fruit, and the BDSM stuff I only used once but it wasn't the primary kink, so I definitely think there's a lot of room to, like you said, make them dirtier and more specific.  And it's a great indication that the customers want it _bad_ if the dirty words help boost sales.
> 
> Cool, I hope they help!  Like I was mentioning above, when I concocted those BDSM keywords, the BDSM wasn't the primary kink, but I know they did something for the story because it was selling at at least the same stuff as the titles of that primary kink which didn't involve BDSM, yet the rankings the story had in the search results for the primary kink where much less than the other titles, which means a lot of the borrows and sales were coming from the BDSM keywords.


I would love to write PI because I know it sells, but I'm kind of scared of it. I had one blocked and I got the nasty email from Amazon along with it. Still, I wish I could get one past screening.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Someone please explain this to me. 14 pages. Ok thats fine if quality - but look at the writing. How in the world did enough people get it, a great title and cover runs that far?

_Edited. Erotica may not be linked to, per Forum Decorum. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

DGS said:


> Someone please explain this to me. 14 pages. Ok thats fine if quality - but look at the writing. How in the world did enough people get it, a great title and cover runs that far?


Cover looks great, blurb looks great, categorized correctly, it is in KU so those are probably borrows. Now without looking, I would bet a dollar it opens at somewhere around 15%.

Dang it. Not a one of those books is free today. So I can't check my theory.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

DGS said:


> Someone please explain this to me. 14 pages. Ok thats fine if quality - but look at the writing. How in the world did enough people get it, a great title and cover runs that far?


I have seen this on two of my erotica feeds. I have a pen name that writes erom and this has popped up recently. Personally, I like this kind of cover. For the genre, these are the covers I find most appealing.

So appealing cover, good blurb, and promo.

_Edited quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Lisa Manifold said:


> I have seen this on two of my erotica feeds. I have a pen name that writes erom and this has popped up recently. Personally, I like this kind of cover. For the genre, these are the covers I find most appealing.
> 
> So appealing cover, good blurb, and promo.


can you tell me which promos you think it was?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Cover looks great, blurb looks great, categorized correctly, it is in KU so those are probably borrows. Now without looking, I would bet a dollar it opens at somewhere around 15%.
> 
> Dang it. Not a one of those books is free today. So I can't check my theory.


I would say the title helps.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> I would say the title helps.


Would someone actually mention the title, since all other identifying information has been deleted?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Shelley K said:


> Would someone actually mention the title, since all other identifying information has been deleted?


EROTICA: Filling Her Up (MMF,MENAGE,THREESOMES Book 1)

without the link.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

I would say that the shill reviews and borrow circle probably didn't hurt.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> EROTICA: Filling Her Up (MMF,MENAGE,THREESOMES Book 1)
> 
> without the link.


Thanks!

Everyone realizes it's not actually categorized as erotica, no matter what the title says, right? That helped it along. Nice cover, too. Keyworded title bar. Those things help.



cinisajoy said:


> Now without looking, I would bet a dollar it opens at somewhere around 15%.


I have KU. It opened at 2%.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

DGS said:


> can you tell me which promos you think it was?


I think it was on Newotica, and hang on. Lemme go look at FB.

Drat. I can't find it. But Newotica is one that I get regularly.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Shelley K said:


> Would someone actually mention the title, since all other identifying information has been deleted?


I was wondering how long that would take. The mods are usually faster than that. They must be having a busy day.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Shelley K said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Everyone realizes it's not actually categorized as erotica, no matter what the title says, right? That helped it along. Nice cover, too. Keyworded title bar. Those things help.
> 
> I have KU. It opened at 2%.


Thank you. I have ran across several books lately that open at 15% or greater. Mostly in the DIY division.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

katrina46 said:


> I was wondering how long that would take. The mods are usually faster than that. They must be having a busy day.


It's called "real life".


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Really? They let mods here have those?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> It's called "real life".


I remember when I use to have one of those.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> I would say that the shill reviews and borrow circle probably didn't hurt.


ding ding ding. First time I hear of borrow circle, ingenious.

My 02 - cover blurb title that's fine, but it doesn't get you to sub 5k without having a good hook. No hook here really -the opening writing is boring, just a hint of expectancy is the only saving grace. To get into top 1500 (now top 1800) you need more. So we've heard promos, and the fake reviews, l'd say 5 or so. I'm guessing those promos were really powerful, that's my bet.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

DGS said:


> ding ding ding. First time I hear of borrow circle, ingenious.
> 
> My 02 - cover blurb title that's fine, but it doesn't get you to sub 5k without having a good hook. No hook here really -the opening writing is boring, just a hint of expectancy is the only saving grace. To get into top 1500 (now top 1800) you need more. So we've heard promos, and the fake reviews, l'd say 5 or so. I'm guessing those promos were really powerful, that's my bet.


Or they put a link to a bestseller in the back of theirs to get onto the also bought list. That's a common trick. I've never tried it because I'm not quite sure if it's unethical or not. I'm sure the other writer wouldn't mind since it's free promo for them, but still, riding someone else's coat tails feels wrong. Unless both writers made an arrangement to swap links. That's different than just sticking another author's link in your book. I do it with my own pen names so every book I publish promotes the other name, though. It does work for that.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Nothing is going to get a poorly written and edited vanilla MMF 3500 word porn short by an author with no other stories in his/her catalog to the top 1500 paid with 10 four or five star reviews in a month without gaming the system hard. Sorry. That's just reality.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> Nothing is going to get a poorly written and edited vanilla MMF 3500 word porn short by an author with no other stories in his/her catalog to the top 1500 paid with 10 four or five star reviews in a month without gaming the system hard. Sorry. That's just reality.


Yeah, it takes getting into the 3000's to even make it to #100. The closest I ever got was 6000's. I did the happy dance. I find it's easy to impress myself.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

KD Walsh screwed up his borrow circle and reviewed his own book, too. Tsk, tsk.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> KD Walsh screwed up his borrow circle and reviewed his own book, too. Tsk, tsk.


 Sometimes I do get sick of working my butt off and not trying this trick or that one. Then someone joins a borrowing circle and shoots way ahead of me. I'm starting to think nice guys finish last in this business.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> Sometimes I do get sick of working my butt off and not trying this trick or that one. Then someone joins a borrowing circle and shoots way ahead of me. I'm starting to think nice guys finish last in this business.


Nice guys always finish last. (pun intended and unintended)


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

katrina46 said:


> Sometimes I do get sick of working my butt off and not trying this trick or that one. Then someone joins a borrowing circle and shoots way ahead of me. I'm starting to think nice guys finish last in this business.


They also survive longer. Build your sales naturally and you'll survive. Don't worry about these people.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Sometimes I do get sick of working my butt off and not trying this trick or that one. Then someone joins a borrowing circle and shoots way ahead of me. I'm starting to think nice guys finish last in this business.


This is the first time I've heard of a borrowing circle. What is it?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes. I'm getting out of the smut-peddling business because of this nonsense and switching over to romance full time in June. Not that it isn't possible to game that to some degree as well, but the up front effort is a lot harder and the chances of succeeding are lower, and so the risk vs. reward ratio isn't nearly as good for the scammers. Most of them are going to stick with short erotica and non-fiction where they can get more bang for their buck.

So to speak.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

lyndabelle said:


> This is the first time I've heard of a borrowing circle. What is it?


If I remember right, it is where a bunch of people in KU agree to borrow others books. 
An example would be if everyone in this thread, borrowed everyone else's books in this thread. Not very smart or wise if you ask me.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Yes. I'm getting out of the smut-peddling business because of this nonsense and switching over to romance full time in June. Not that it isn't possible to game that to some degree as well, but the up front effort is a lot harder and the chances of succeeding are lower, and so the risk vs. reward ratio isn't nearly as good for the scammers. Most of them are going to stick with short erotica and non-fiction where they can get more bang for their buck.
> 
> So to speak.


Don't even get me started on the home worms. Oops, I mean do it yourself books with the key word stuffing and the very bad typos.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

lyndabelle said:


> This is the first time I've heard of a borrowing circle. What is it?


Say a group of 10 people each join KU. That's a $10 outlay up front apiece. They each then borrow a copy of the others' stories. So that's 9 borrows per person at $1.35 each, which comes out to $12.15. Voila, instant profit at Amazon's expense.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> Say a group of 10 people each join KU. That's a $10 outlay up front apiece. They each then borrow a copy of the others' stories. So that's 9 borrows per person at $1.35 each, which comes out to $12.15. Voila, instant profit at Amazon's expense.


And if your circle is big enough you can shoot up in the ranks, I guess. I actually had an offer to join one, but I'm too busy actually writing and buying Bknight ads to get sleazy.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Lady Vine said:


> They also survive longer. Build your sales naturally and you'll survive. Don't worry about these people.


That's what I've been doing since last September. I just seem stuck at the 600-800 dollar range forever. Of course, there was a time I never thought I'd make more than 20 bucks a month, so I really shouldn't complain.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> And if your circle is big enough you can shoot up in the ranks, I guess. I actually had an offer to join one, but I'm too busy actually writing and buying Bknight ads to get sleazy.





Kerosene said:


> Amazon is dropping the ban hammer and suspending accounts of borrow circles.


Buy circles have gone on for years with no repercussions. Do you have to links to back up what you're saying?


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Shelley K said:


> Buy circles have gone on for years with no repercussions. Do you have to links to back up what you're saying?


What I am curious about is the timing of the buys/borrows. Since (or so I've heard) a single day boost doesn't really keep the book low rank, I'd love to have a guesstimate as to what would.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

The difference between now and years prior is that with KU buy circles cost Amazon money. How long do you think they're going to allow that to happen? Before when everyone was paying full cover price it didn't matter; they got paid anyway so who cares? But gaming KU that way is just a question of very simple arithmetic. If you've got 100 buyers in your circle, 99 * $1.33 = $131.67. And that's if you each only have just one book each. If you've each got 10 books then you just made $1316.70 on a $10 investment for a month of KU.

Even if you paid ghostwriters on freelancer.com $20 a pop to crank out 3500 word short stories you've still made a very nice profit for almost no effort at all, and with a quick 99 sales you've probably hit the HNR list and gotten onto a couple of top 100 sub-lists which brings you even more buys.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> The difference between now and years prior is that with KU buy circles cost Amazon money. How long do you think they're going to allow that to happen? Before when everyone was paying full cover price it didn't matter; they got paid anyway so who cares? But gaming KU that way is just a question of very simple arithmetic. If you've got 100 buyers in your circle, 99 * $1.33 = $131.67. And that's if you each only have just one book each. If you've each got 10 books then you just made $1316.70 on a $10 investment for a month of KU.
> 
> Even if you paid ghostwriters on freelancer.com $20 a pop to crank out 3500 word short stories you've still made a very nice profit for almost no effort at all, and with a quick 99 sales you've probably hit the HNR list and gotten onto a couple of top 100 sub-lists which brings you even more buys.


I look at it like it's not just Amazon getting scammed either. All the scammers in KU are lowering the payout for the rest of the writers. That said, I don't see how Amazon could ever tell who is in a borrowing system and who isn't. I mean if they paid their ten bucks, how does Amazon know if they should be borrowing those books or not?


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> The difference between now and years prior is that with KU buy circles cost Amazon money. How long do you think they're going to allow that to happen?


My opinion doesn't really matter, because I'm only interested in evidence. People here are always warning others not to do this or that or they'll get banned, when there's not a single person who's been banned for doing the thing they're talking about. So it wouldn't surprise me if this is the same. Links would clear it right up, though.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Shelley K said:


> My opinion doesn't really matter, because I'm only interested in evidence. People here are always warning others not to do this or that or they'll get banned, when there's not a single person who's been banned for doing the thing they're talking about. So it wouldn't surprise me if this is the same. Links would clear it right up, though.


It depends on which this or that you're talking about. Cracking down on KU, no there might not be concrete evidence of that. Certain titles or blurbs, there's plenty of examples of big names getting banned or having their book banned. Weekends being bad times to publish. There's plenty of Carlos stories. He's very real. Some of that stuff is shared by people who have been through it and want to help others.


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## RomanaClifton (May 3, 2015)

I am not at liberty to link to the evidence, but I have it on good authority that people writing for the same group pen name have been banned for borrowing each other's books. Whether people have been banned for borrow circles outside a shared pen name, that I do not know, but I sure wouldn't risk it.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

OK. That makes sense. When Kindle Select worked the way it did before, people might have just done it to raise the ranks on their books. But with the way Kindle Unlimited works, they can make money off of it. Go figure. There's always people out there trying to beat every system.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> Certain titles or blurbs, there's plenty of examples of big names getting banned or having their book banned.


But there aren't. There are plenty examples of individual titles being blocked. I can count on one hand the examples of actual _account bans_ that resulted from these things.



> Weekends being bad times to publish. There's plenty of Carlos stories. He's very real. Some of that stuff is shared by people who have been through it and want to help others.


I've been through it. Carlos F. got me a time or two!  I have one pen name with over a dozen blocked titles and have associated with plenty of people in similar situations over the last three years. Which is why it drives me a little crazy to see the word 'banned' thrown around. It happens _incredibly_ rarely, and generally once the person has pushed Amazon's buttons multiple times.



> I am not at liberty to link to the evidence, but I have it on good authority that people writing for the same group pen name have been banned for borrowing each other's books. Whether people have been banned for borrow circles outside a shared pen name, that I do not know, but I sure wouldn't risk it.


Gotcha. Is this a stepbrother romance pen name?


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

I think if you simply do your own marketing and promotion in the right way, what other people are or aren't doing won't really matter at all, in the end. I write 5k erotica shorts and only published like two in the past two months, but last month I made $700 and this month $1200, simply because there's always a way to get the right eyes on your titles in the right way. If I was holding to a much tighter publication schedule these two months, even 4 titles per month, I could've made $3-5k this month. KU really makes it happen, and I think that ultimately Amazon has all the capacity they need to continually mitigate the effect of people scamming the system. As far as I can see even taboo erotica shorts in KU is still a thriving marketplace.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Also the marketing and keywords on Filling Her Up smacks of well-played. It's no wonder it has the ranking it does, and 15 reviews of varying stars isn't very much, _especially_ when one considers that it is apparently a more vanilla story - meaning more readers won't feel sexually inhibited to review it like they tend to be for more taboo titles. 
Saying right away in the blurb that it's free and it's sure to get your panties wet are both things readers _want_ to hear, and the way they manipulated the titles and I'm sure carried over that same edge to how they did their sets of keywords made sure the readers got the chance to hear it. I think there's a lot to learn there...


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## RomanaClifton (May 3, 2015)

Shelley, here's the complete context for what I know: my writer partner is on an erotica writing mailing list, and a guy on that list was banned from Amazon for mutual borrows within a pen name.  It spooked my partner so badly she immediately emailed me to make sure that I never borrowed her books.  I didn't ask who the banned author was, so I don't know if there were other factors in play.  Like, was this just some random author snagged by a borrow-tracking algorithm? Or was this the Amazon equivalent of convicting Al Capone for tax evasion -- i.e. Amazon was looking for a good excuse to boot this person?

Either way, it's not something I want to mess with.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Shelley K said:


> But there aren't. There are plenty examples of individual titles being blocked. I can count on one hand the examples of actual _account bans_ that resulted from these things.
> 
> I've been through it. Carlos F. got me a time or two!  I have one pen name with over a dozen blocked titles and have associated with plenty of people in similar situations over the last three years. Which is why it drives me a little crazy to see the word 'banned' thrown around. It happens _incredibly_ rarely, and generally once the person has pushed Amazon's buttons multiple times.
> 
> Gotcha. Is this a stepbrother romance pen name?


Selena Kitt had a few banned. She still has one that will forever be banned on Amazon despite it being a huge seller on other sites from what she says on her blog. Cassandra Zara had most of her titles banned last September. It almost destroyed her career. They temporarily suspended her account and she announced she quit, but she came back in romance. It happens. Yes, it happens when you push their buttons several times, but that's why writer's warn others about the banning, so they don't. There was a girl over at dirty dicourse who got suspended recently. She managed to get her account back, but it took time and imagine if your entire income was cut off suddenly until you could convince Amazon you'd never do it again? That's why I take the warnings seriously and I give them when I see people new to publishing PI and don't know to keep certain words out of their blurbs and titles. Saves them a little heartache.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> ...but it took time and imagine if your entire income was cut off suddenly until you could convince Amazon you'd never do it again? That's why I take the warnings seriously and I give them when I see people new to publishing PI and don't know to keep certain words out of their blurbs and titles. Saves them a little heartache.


Exactly, the reason these stories get flagged for closer review, anyways, is because of those words in the blurbs, titles, and even in the look inside - the store-front side of your publication. Don't raise the flag in the first place and don't get yourself placed in romance subcategories, and you'll have a lot less problems as well as a chance at very lucrative income.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> Selena Kitt had a few banned. She still has one that will forever be banned on Amazon despite it being a huge seller on other sites from what she says on her blog. Cassandra Zara had most of her titles banned last September. It almost destroyed her career. They temporarily suspended her account and she announced she quit, but she came back in romance. It happens. Yes, it happens when you push their buttons several times, but that's why writer's warn others about the banning, so they don't. There was a girl over at dirty dicourse who got suspended recently. She managed to get her account back, but it took time and imagine if your entire income was cut off suddenly until you could convince Amazon you'd never do it again? That's why I take the warnings seriously and I give them when I see people new to publishing PI and don't know to keep certain words out of their blurbs and titles. Saves them a little heartache.


Oh, I know about those. I'm all for warning people of possible consequences, it's just so often done (not necessarily by you) in an exaggerated way that makes little sense to me. The accurate truth is bad enough. Don't push Amazon's buttons. Pretty much a rule. But most people have to do it repeatedly to suffer big consequences. And you typically have to be on their radar, which mean big sales or lots of eyes repeatedly on your account for someone reason (such as with support, in my opinion).

That's not saying go break the rules, because it'll probably be okay. But there's no need for people to panic if they have, either.

And I'm now informed on the borrower ban--it's one person, and even that person thinks there were extenuating circumstances. That's not 'suspending the accounts of borrow circles,' that's one unique case.

Yes, that one case is bad enough that it should discourage people from doing it (don't, would be my earnest advice), but making everybody who ever participated in a borrow circle feel panicky at the idea that there have been multiple account bans doesn't serve a good purpose, either. Kwim?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Shelley K said:


> Oh, I know about those. I'm all for warning people of possible consequences, it's just so often done (not necessarily by you) in an exaggerated way that makes little sense to me. The accurate truth is bad enough. Don't push Amazon's buttons. Pretty much a rule. But most people have to do it repeatedly to suffer big consequences. And you typically have to be on their radar, which mean big sales or lots of eyes repeatedly on your account for someone reason (such as with support, in my opinion).
> 
> That's not saying go break the rules, because it'll probably be okay. But there's no need for people to panic if they have, either.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean. I don't think they'll do a borrowing ban anytime soon anyway for the simple fact it'd be too hard to determine who was doing that, if they ever could. I'm sure it happens across all genres. In fact, Bezo is no dummy. I'm sure Amazon anticipated that would spring up before he ever launched KU.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Got a quick question everyone. I'm working on a male escort short right now, and I've got another idea for a cam girl story. So, I'm thinking, this would be a great start for a new series. So, I'm trying to think of a title. I have been considering "Sex Workers Series", but I don't know if that would fly with Amazon. I mean, maybe something that mentioned about sex workers, but put it less subtle. A little stumped.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

lyndabelle said:


> Got a quick question everyone. I'm working on a male escort short right now, and I've got another idea for a cam girl story. So, I'm thinking, this would be a great start for a new series. So, I'm trying to think of a title. I have been considering "Sex Workers Series", but I don't know if that would fly with Amazon. I mean, maybe something that mentioned about sex workers, but put it less subtle. A little stumped.


I would leave "sex" out of your title completely.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

lyndabelle said:


> Got a quick question everyone. I'm working on a male escort short right now, and I've got another idea for a cam girl story. So, I'm thinking, this would be a great start for a new series. So, I'm trying to think of a title. I have been considering "Sex Workers Series", but I don't know if that would fly with Amazon. I mean, maybe something that mentioned about sex workers, but put it less subtle. A little stumped.


Lady of the Night? Gentleman/men of the Night if you are going to do one with guys?


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## DashaGLogan (Jan 30, 2014)

What about "Working Boys"


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

@Shelley I know right? Sad you can't use sex in a title unless it's a nonfiction scientific or psychology book.

@Dasha, I like "Working Boys" but was planning to have a cam girl. Hmmm. More thinking. 

Thank you everyone for suggestions so far. It's helping.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Bumping this thread up to see how everyone is doing in regards to the KU changes coming up in July. Anybody planning changing their game plan? Think it will slow down sales of shorts, or get them to pick up? Will you write longer books now?


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## LeiyaJones (Jul 21, 2014)

It's a big change, alright. Overall sales of shorts probably won't change any appreciable amount, but there's no denying that a book at #1 today will earn much less money than a book at #1 come the first of July. Even then, the changes probably hurt beginning erotica writers more than anyone else, as now all the earning potential is much, much more concentrated in those with large catalogues, high overall page counts, and an established reader base. The timeframe needed to sustain a full-time living off erotica shorts just blew out by months, if not years for those not already doing it.

It's a sucky all-around change for us. I'm personally just going to keep writing until we get the $/page report on the 15th. Even then, I'm most likely going to pull out. 80% of my earnings come from KU borrows, but if the $/page payout is as low as it's likely to be (or get there by the holiday season) it's just not economical for me not to go wide to make up the difference. Overnight I'm likely to see a change that makes a single sale make me more money than a half-dozen borrows, and the payout rate is only ever going to go down from that optimistic rate.

At least we'll still be able to brag once those book-completion % stats come out. A lot of people around here are going to get a rude shock once they realize that people read their books a lot less and a lot slower than they think they do. At least we all should be smart enough to put the major sex scenes at the back


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

LeiyaJones said:


> It's a sucky all-around change for us. I'm personally just going to keep writing until we get the $/page report on the 15th.


I'm planning on doing the same. If the payout is only going to be $0.01 per page view, then I'm going to pull out and go with wide distribution. Supposedly, Amazon will let anyone out of Select during the initial 90 day period after the change if you email them.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

I'd love to hear everyone's opinion on book length and pricing. I'm breaking my head over different strategies for writing and selling series. 

Strategy 1 is to write 10,000 word shorts series and sell them for 0.99

Strategy 2 is to write longer works in a series, say 20,000 - 40,000 and sell them for 2.99 or 3.99

In your experience, what works best for you? Is there another strategy I haven't mentioned that sells even better?

Thanks!


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## Eric S. Kim (Oct 22, 2014)

As soon as I finish/publish my horror novel, I'll most likely go right back to my erotica. I've been working on my horror WIP nonstop for three weeks. I'll publish the next erotic short story sometime in the first week of July (not too sure of that yet, but I'm hoping).


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

LeiyaJones said:


> It's a big change, alright. Overall sales of shorts probably won't change any appreciable amount, but there's no denying that a book at #1 today will earn much less money than a book at #1 come the first of July. Even then, the changes probably hurt beginning erotica writers more than anyone else, as now all the earning potential is much, much more concentrated in those with large catalogues, high overall page counts, and an established reader base. The timeframe needed to sustain a full-time living off erotica shorts just blew out by months, if not years for those not already doing it.
> 
> It's a sucky all-around change for us. I'm personally just going to keep writing until we get the $/page report on the 15th. Even then, I'm most likely going to pull out. 80% of my earnings come from KU borrows, but if the $/page payout is as low as it's likely to be (or get there by the holiday season) it's just not economical for me not to go wide to make up the difference. Overnight I'm likely to see a change that makes a single sale make me more money than a half-dozen borrows, and the payout rate is only ever going to go down from that optimistic rate.
> 
> At least we'll still be able to brag once those book-completion % stats come out. A lot of people around here are going to get a rude shock once they realize that people read their books a lot less and a lot slower than they think they do. At least we all should be smart enough to put the major sex scenes at the back


Totally agree with the fact having a catalog is going to help. I have a feeling people starting out are going to have to write longer shorts.
I've only got 6 and a 7th coming out next week. I'm trying to make my First 10 by summer's end.

But I'm sure the change is going to affect the structure of shorts. Though I tend to write more erotic romances than straight erotica since I have to have a story with my erotic scenes. I mean, it's how I imagine them. Putting all the sex scenes in the back will most likely be one of the new strategies, or just good writing to draw the readers through the whole story. I mean, that is a given. Good writing will pay out.

And the fact I was trying to make my mortgage payment with the Dirty 30 might have to be a whole lot more to reach a magic self sustaining number. But you know, if people get addicted to your stuff they'll read it. It just means that your writing has to be on the game, and good. Crap wont' cut it. But stories like Hannah Ford's series may still work. It's still addictive. I can't put hers down. And she's on her 13th. I've read them all the way through, and am waiting for the next. So, really, good writing drawing people through the story will work. The serials will still work to create an audience. I mean, like serials and pulp fiction in the past, it's going to pay to write things that get people to read all the way through. People don't like to wait now for things. Short will still sell.

I think they'd still like things in pieces if that's how you're writing it. I've got two novels I'm writing, one novella series finished and one to start, and six shorts out, with several more in my head. Like when I sell my jewelry, having a variety with high ticket items down to low ticket items helps. A variety of books always will help sell your brand.

We'll just have to adapt and make it work. There is a silver lining to this dark cloud.


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## Priya (Apr 22, 2015)

I am not changing my strategy at the moment. I will keep writing short (10K) erotica romance serials.  I am taking a page from Patterson and plan to practice better pacing and cliff hangers or big 'ah'ha' moments throughout the serial.  I am hoping that will help increase read thru rate.


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## Bella Breen (May 24, 2015)

Sweet Amber said:


> I think if you simply do your own marketing and promotion in the right way, what other people are or aren't doing won't really matter at all, in the end. I write 5k erotica shorts and only published like two in the past two months, but last month I made $700 and this month $1200, simply because there's always a way to get the right eyes on your titles in the right way. If I was holding to a much tighter publication schedule these two months, even 4 titles per month, I could've made $3-5k this month. KU really makes it happen, and I think that ultimately Amazon has all the capacity they need to continually mitigate the effect of people scamming the system. As far as I can see even taboo erotica shorts in KU is still a thriving marketplace.


What marketing and promotion do you do for a new release? I still need help with that part of being an indie author.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

So, I actually did the math on another thread for the impending KU change. 

I took a current number of borrows for the month from my top seller, and came up with this comparison.

Old KU Plan: 48 borrows X $1.35= $64.80

New KU Plan: 48 borrows X 25 pages= 1200 pages X (0.01)(Est. one penny per page)= $12

*SIGH*

Anyone else a little sad about the impending doom of the KU change?

I still sell more on Amazon, so opting out is still not good. 80% of sales still come from Amazon. 

So, Any suggestions on how to not have all of your profits fall out the bottom?

Losing 50 bucks or 75% of your sales is a HARD HIT to take. I'm having sleeping over this. I was actually starting to make some money. I know all the other erotica writers with huge catalogs might do fine, but I'm guessing this will wipe out the little guys. Do you think SHORTS will die out now?


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Jessie Jasen said:


> I'd love to hear everyone's opinion on book length and pricing. I'm breaking my head over different strategies for writing and selling series.
> 
> Strategy 1 is to write 10,000 word shorts series and sell them for 0.99
> 
> ...


I write niche erotica, which might allow for higher prices, but I've had no trouble selling my 5k-10k shorts for $2.99. I wouldn't undercut yourself with a bunch of 99c books that might well bring in just as many sales at the higher price point; you can always drop the price later if you need.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

monamorabooks said:


> What marketing and promotion do you do for a new release? I still need help with that part of being an indie author.


Well marketing for me actually starts with the writing itself. What type of story I write and how I write it is determined with a lot of marketing considerations in mind. Basically what you want to do is first get in touch with the heart and soul of whatever niche or genre of story you're telling, its essence which drives readers to read it, and then you give them that but you also make the other 80% of the creative decisions about what _you_ want in a story. 

And then of course writing in series or serial is definitely a cornerstone of my marketing and promotion strategy. Especially in writing erotica shorts it can really offer you a lot of free advantages when it comes to gaining visibility and maximizing your chances of collecting your earnings. Also with that comes the importance that the concept behind the series or serial is dramatically important enough to necessitate being told in multiple installments...

What I like to do after a series has went through its natural life cycle (could be 30, 60, 90 days depending on how the release schedule was managed) is put the first one on free days, in line with some paid promo, with the rest on Countdown Deals. A nice way to get some extra ka-ching.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Sweet Amber said:


> Well marketing for me actually starts with the writing itself. What type of story I write and how I write it is determined with a lot of marketing considerations in mind. Basically what you want to do is first get in touch with the heart and soul of whatever niche or genre of story you're telling, its essence which drives readers to read it, and then you give them that but you also make the other 80% of the creative decisions about what _you_ want in a story.
> 
> And then of course writing in series or serial is definitely a cornerstone of my marketing and promotion strategy. Especially in writing erotica shorts it can really offer you a lot of free advantages when it comes to gaining visibility and maximizing your chances of collecting your earnings. Also with that comes the importance that the concept behind the series or serial is dramatically important enough to necessitate being told in multiple installments...
> 
> What I like to do after a series has went through its natural life cycle (could be 30, 60, 90 days depending on how the release schedule was managed) is put the first one on free days, in line with some paid promo, with the rest on Countdown Deals. A nice way to get some extra ka-ching.


I boxed a series and made a good sum off of it the last couple months. Sales, too, so that was great since I got the full 4.99 royalty. I'm getting out of erotica and into full length romance in the next few months. It seems to be where the money is these days and you don't have to jump through Amazon's hoops.
I came back here to do an edit because I shouldn't say I'm getting out of erotica altogether. June was my best month ever, so that would be a stupid move. I'm just branching out and doing other things.


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## mouse1996 (Oct 6, 2014)

lyndabelle said:


> So, I actually did the math on another thread for the impending KU change.
> 
> I took a current number of borrows for the month from my top seller, and came up with this comparison.
> 
> ...


I was ready to jump in the erotica pool, having read the whole 7 Day Challenge thread, and then come to find out payments will be changing. Your mockup gives me a lot to think about. I was ready to go all in with KU, but perhaps it will be better to stay out of it until we see how other authors are doing in it. I mean I get it, it does give longer books a chance to get payout, which I am all for, but while it makes things fair for them it makes things unfair for shorter works. I guess it will come down to just putting out more work. I'm hoping to try publishing my first short this week, and I just don't know if I should KU it not. Seems I can take it out if it doesn't seem to work for me, but you still can't go wide with it until the 90 days are up, from what I've read on other posts. So I don't know, I've got a lot to think about now. I don't think all is lost, people love their smut, but it does seem that writing shorts has become more involved if you want to make bank off of them. *sigh* Guess I'd better get to writing.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

mouse1996 said:


> I mean I get it, it does give longer books a chance to get payout, which I am all for, but while it makes things fair for them it makes things unfair for shorter works.


I don't see how it's less fair for shorter works; each author gets compensated for the actual amount their content is consumed by readers.

Being used to getting paid more isn't really the same thing as the change itself being unfair.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Just had a thought,
I can read 10 at least erotica books in the time it would take me to read one novel.    This means I need more of you than I need novels.


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## LeiyaJones (Jul 21, 2014)

Sweet Amber said:


> I don't see how it's less fair for shorter works; each author gets compensated for the actual amount their content is consumed by readers.
> 
> Being used to getting paid more isn't really the same thing as the change itself being unfair.


It's true that a lot of the negative feeling comes from being paid less; there's no denying that. But think about it like this - we're being paid less despite not having any of the typical reasons for earning less money. A book at #1 is still a book at #1 - people still like it just as much under the new system as the old system. They're still marketed the same, they still have the same target audience, the same subscriber base, everything - but it has a drastically reduced earning ceiling now. The readers haven't changed their buying and reading patterns, but Amazon has changed their payouts in some attempt to appease the long-form authors, who with less popular works, are now potentially earning more money (it's my theory that this is all ultimately a ploy to attract the tradpub houses to make their novels part of KU exclusively in order to make their catalogue more 'prestige')

The people who lose out the most from this are the beginning, short-form authors. Those with large back-catalogues and bundle collections will take a hit, sure, but they can still earn a liveable income. Those who are just starting out now have to work ten times longer to get up to that full-time level. And pages read is not a decent metric of how good a book is anyway - popularity does not always mean that something is good. If that were the case, then Michael Bay would be drowning in Oscars for the Transformer series. You're likely to find a reader who is completely satisfied with their ten-page smutbook at the price they paid for it, and that same person being disappointed 50 pages into a novel, but nope, that novel now earns more money even though they didn't come close to finishing it or being happy with it.

The pressure for quick, nasty content in erotica just got bigger, not smaller. This is going to really flood the market with poorly written nonsense as now every page earns a cent - the 10 page nasties were pretty bad, but now we'll get 1 page nasties in huge numbers because the payout system favours more pages versus better stories.

Realistically I've had to budget for earning a quarter of what I did this month when the KU changes come into effect, and that's with me putting out more stories and getting more readers. And that's not a nice pill to swallow.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

LeiyaJones said:


> But think about it like this - we're being paid less despite not having any of the typical reasons for earning less money. A book at #1 is still a book at #1 - people still like it just as much under the new system as the old system. They're still marketed the same, they still have the same target audience, the same subscriber base, everything - but it has a drastically reduced earning ceiling now. The readers haven't changed their buying and reading patterns, but Amazon has changed their payouts in some attempt to appease the long-form authors, who with less popular works, are now potentially earning more money (it's my theory that this is all ultimately a ploy to attract the tradpub houses to make their novels part of KU exclusively in order to make their catalogue more 'prestige')


My understanding is that it will be easier for them to bring the program's budget into more balance by paying-out based on what readers are actually reading. At the end of the day it's a matter of each reader paying only $9.99 for however much they read. Each borrow or page-read is one slice of that pie. As it was, Amazon was already supplementing the pay-outs with bonus money. That money came from somewhere else in the company. 
Yes, readers _did_ change their habits to necessitate a change in pay-out - they subscribed to KU. 



> The people who lose out the most from this are the beginning, short-form authors. Those with large back-catalogues and bundle collections will take a hit, sure, but they can still earn a liveable income. Those who are just starting out now have to work ten times longer to get up to that full-time level.


You're suggesting the payout is going to be ten times less than it used to be? So an author would only get paid $0.13 for all pages-read from a 5k short? Why would authors work for peanuts when they could simply pull their catalog from Select/never put it in in the first place? It worked well before.



> And pages read is not a decent metric of how good a book is anyway - popularity does not always mean that something is good.


I don't think Amazon is interested in being the arbiter of whether or not a book is _"good"_ or _"popular"_. They want to sell products to consumers and consumers want to buy them. It's a commodity, and they're figuring out how to make their business model for KU sustainable, as any business would.



> The pressure for quick, nasty content in erotica just got bigger, not smaller. This is going to really flood the market with poorly written nonsense as now every page earns a cent - the 10 page nasties were pretty bad, but now we'll get 1 page nasties in huge numbers because the payout system favours more pages versus better stories.


I wonder if they could look at page-count when reviewing a book for the store? It's easy to imagine they would, if a problem like this began to occur.



> Realistically I've had to budget for earning a quarter of what I did this month when the KU changes come into effect, and that's with me putting out more stories and getting more readers. And that's not a nice pill to swallow.


It definitely has its challenges, but I don't see how it makes the change somehow unfair.


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## mouse1996 (Oct 6, 2014)

LeiyaJones said:


> It's true that a lot of the negative feeling comes from being paid less; there's no denying that. But think about it like this - we're being paid less despite not having any of the typical reasons for earning less money. A book at #1 is still a book at #1 - people still like it just as much under the new system as the old system. They're still marketed the same, they still have the same target audience, the same subscriber base, everything - but it has a drastically reduced earning ceiling now. The readers haven't changed their buying and reading patterns, but Amazon has changed their payouts in some attempt to appease the long-form authors, who with less popular works, are now potentially earning more money (it's my theory that this is all ultimately a ploy to attract the tradpub houses to make their novels part of KU exclusively in order to make their catalogue more 'prestige')
> 
> The people who lose out the most from this are the beginning, short-form authors. Those with large back-catalogues and bundle collections will take a hit, sure, but they can still earn a liveable income. Those who are just starting out now have to work ten times longer to get up to that full-time level. And pages read is not a decent metric of how good a book is anyway - popularity does not always mean that something is good. If that were the case, then Michael Bay would be drowning in Oscars for the Transformer series. You're likely to find a reader who is completely satisfied with their ten-page smutbook at the price they paid for it, and that same person being disappointed 50 pages into a novel, but nope, that novel now earns more money even though they didn't come close to finishing it or being happy with it.
> 
> ...


This. This is exactly my thoughts. Look, I am glad that longer works will get their chance to make money. Honestly the 10% wasn't fair to them if you think about people's reading patterns and whatnot. So I get it, and I respect Amazon's choice in trying to change things for them. Maybe saying it wasn't fair to short story authors was the wrong term to use. It's completely fair if you think that everyone now has an equal chance to make money. A page read is a page read no matter how long the story. But I agree with Leiya that it will require more work from those who write shorter stories, especially those, like myself, who are just starting out. I have a lot of work ahead of me to start making any real income. It's work I'm willing to do, and had already planned to do before finding out about the change, but I now wonder if my plans to make a living writing erotica will still pan out. Don't get me wrong, I'm optimistic about it still, I just think it's going to take a little bit harder work and more time to get to where I am heading from today forward. I'm curious to see results of this change in the coming weeks. I still think erotica is the place to be for writing, if that is your genre of choice, but as Sweet Amber suggested, it may come down to just leaving our works out of KU if the pay just isn't what we expect. When I try KU out, I'll report back on how I like it.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

mouse1996 said:


> But I agree with Leiya that it will require more work from those who write shorter stories, especially those, like myself, who are just starting out. I have a lot of work ahead of me to start making any real income. It's work I'm willing to do, and had already planned to do before finding out about the change, but I now wonder if my plans to make a living writing erotica will still pan out. Don't get me wrong, I'm optimistic about it still, I just think it's going to take a little bit harder work and more time to get to where I am heading from today forward.


For a point of reference, I've been publishing erotica shorts for five months now, and for the past three months I've averaged about $900 per month in income. On the one hand, it's easy to see the prospect of making four to five times less per erotica short enrolled in KU as meaning four to five times the amount of work _just_ to make what I was already making, but in these five months I only published an average of one title per week.

The upshot is we're talking about just 5000 words per week having made me nearly $1k a month. So if I have to write 20,000 words a week to break even, it's _still_ not like I'd consider myself working a full-time job in order to make essentially a full-time minimum-wage income, and it's not as if 20,000 words of work are going out earn out in a multiple of four from 5000 words of work - if in these five months I would've published _twice_ the amount of work, I could've made possibly even _four_ times as much money as I did, simply due to the way more and more titles act (and will still act) as compounding interest.

And of course there's ways to employ strategies differently to make more money out of the same amount of word-count... at any point what I'm saying is that it's not as if it's suddenly became very hard to make a great amount of money in erotica or anything, but yeah, it's going to take more effort for the same dividends, for sure.


----------



## Bella Breen (May 24, 2015)

Are any other erotica authors able to use BKnights on fiverr for promotion? I just got another one cancelled by them.


> Hello- this title is too risque for our audience so we will offer you a refund


----------



## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

monamorabooks said:


> Are any other erotica authors able to use BKnights on fiverr for promotion? I just got another one cancelled by them.


Is it PI? I know they've been clamping down on that. I haven't heard about anything else though. What niche was it?


----------



## Bella Breen (May 24, 2015)

Briteka said:


> Is it PI? I know they've been clamping down on that. I haven't heard about anything else though. What niche was it?


Dirty Doctor Disciplines the Coed Brat. Had a picture of a shirtless guy and a stethoscope.


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

This was the message I got from bknights when I asked about erotica: "no longer promoting step books and some others that have risque covers". They did let me send links to my covers (which are VERY tame) and I got the go-ahead to send both.


----------



## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

monamorabooks said:


> Dirty Doctor Disciplines the Coed Brat. Had a picture of a shirtless guy and a stethoscope.


That's very weird then. We'll have to get some sort of official announcement from them because that wouldn't fall under anything they've been known to crack down on.


----------



## Bella Breen (May 24, 2015)

Yeah it's puzzling.  They haven't responded to my question on what they do allow.  

I'm also pulling all my books out of Kindle Select.  The borrow rate of .0057 per page is ridiculous.


----------



## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

You can email BKnights before you pay and they'll tell you whether they'll promote them or not. They're responding to customer complaints. 

SweetAmber -- Good comments on the changes. I'm doing my best to stay calm and carry on. 

I set all my titles not to renew and I may go wide with some that recently expired from KU as an experiment.


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## LeiyaJones (Jul 21, 2014)

Haha, and here I was getting shot down for naysaying at 3 cents a page. Time to pull out early. Amazon's only temptation to remain exclusive - having the most readers - no longer offers me any incentive to stay with them when the best program for exploiting that advantage is no longer financially viable. I'm sure that the KU program will survive, and this is definitely a nice change for some certain types of writers, but just because this newer payout is 'fair' for someone else doesn't mean that I have to accept that at my expense.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

LeiyaJones said:


> Haha, and here I was getting shot down for naysaying at 3 cents a page. Time to pull out early. Amazon's only temptation to remain exclusive - having the most readers - no longer offers me any incentive to stay with them when the best program for exploiting that advantage is no longer financially viable. I'm sure that the KU program will survive, and this is definitely a nice change for some certain types of writers, but just because this newer payout is 'fair' for someone else doesn't mean that I have to accept that at my expense.


Oh, I'm definitely out too, at $0.05 a page.  But it's not a big deal to me because either KU was still going to be a platform for selling erotica shorts or it wasn't, and Amazon closed that door, so it's all hello $2.99 at 70%, and I don't see what's so bad in that (even if I did interpret them as intending to keep everyone in, hence my sense that it wouldn't drop by so much).  Strategy-wise it's not like all that much will have ultimately changed here...


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

My books are going to be sold wide.

Doesn't matter if most readers read most, or even all of my books pages. I'm still going to be paid in peanuts if I go with KU. 

A 30 page short comes to to only $0.17 .... And that's only if someone reads all 30 pages. 

The short childrens books authors are not going to fare any better.

Hopefully $2.99 will become standard for erotica once more. =)


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Just did a quick check and erotica is down about 1000 books in KU from yesterday.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

All of mine came out this morning.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

I'm not pulling out early, but I unchecked the enroll in select box on my pre-orders and the automatic re-enroll on the two books that will be coming out in August and September.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Just did a quick check and erotica is down about 1000 books in KU from yesterday.


Yeah, it's rapidly falling, which I don't think is a bad thing, necessarily. I have no doubt smut lovers will go back to paying 2.99 and probably cancel their KU subscription if that's what they read the most. It will just take some time. I'll always have something in KU because I do the free promos, but now I'm just going to let them fall out gradually after one 90 day term. I've always done that anyway unless a story was doing well in KU. If my anthologies and box set winds up getting read fairly well I might leave those in longer because I actually stand to make a decent payout on those.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Sweet Amber said:


> Oh, I'm definitely out too, at $0.05 a page.  But it's not a big deal to me because either KU was still going to be a platform for selling erotica shorts or it wasn't, and Amazon closed that door, so it's all hello $2.99 at 70%, and I don't see what's so bad in that (even if I did interpret them as intending to keep everyone in, hence my sense that it wouldn't drop by so much).  Strategy-wise it's not like all that much will have ultimately changed here...


I still keep some in select for the free promos, but it wouldn't bother me at all if they said no erotica in KU, but allowed us to use select for the promos. I hated KU anyway. 1.33 vs 2.09 was never a good deal. Remember when erotica writers were charging 6.99 for bundles. Let's just go back to that. I like that.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Just did a quick check and erotica is down about 1000 books in KU from yesterday.


I expect that number to balloon by the end of the next 6 weeks as people will see how much they got paid for those weeks.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Navigator said:


> I expect that number to balloon by the end of the next 6 weeks and people see how muchlittle they got paid for those weeks.


T,FTFY


----------



## beachbum21k (Oct 22, 2013)

What is the name of the Erotica board that all the authors left for?


----------



## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

beachbum21k said:


> What is the name of the Erotica board that all the authors left for?


Dirty Discourse


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Oh I just looked and erotica authors are still getting into KU.


----------



## Eric S. Kim (Oct 22, 2014)

I used to write stand-alone short stories. But now that KU has changed, I'm planning on publishing five to ten short-story collections (with a total of twenty to twenty-five different stories in each volume) in the future. That way, I'll at least receive a little more money with a 300-page eBook instead of a 20-page eBook.


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## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Just had a thought,
> I can read 10 at least erotica books in the time it would take me to read one novel. This means I need more of you than I need novels.


Cin, when up to 10 people can be splitting the pay for a novel, I don't think you are going to see more erotica in KU2.0. The publishing will stop. Most of the erotica you see that is currently being put into KU is probably erotica that was submitted before the .005 math came out ( erotica is in the publishing/review stage much longer than other genres). Now that the mathi is out, the erotica that will sign up will be ghost written crap. The erotica that remains will be the ghost-written crap or remnants of a large catalog someone is working on.

Before KU1.0, the erotica price point was 2.99. It will be back and when it is, readers need to place the blame not on the authors, but on the people who wanted authors to participate in their publish-for-pennies program.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Oh I just looked and erotica authors are still getting into KU.


Yeah, but I'm seeing where a lot of the old-timers and bigger names have pulled out everything but their mega bundles. How long will KU erotica readers be willing to stick with the mass produced stuff that is ghostwritten by English as a 2nd language types?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Someone said:


> Cin, when up to 10 people can be splitting the pay for a novel, I don't think you are going to see more erotica in KU2.0. The publishing will stop.Most of those books are probably ones that were submitted before the .005 math came out ( erotica is in the publishing stage much longer ). Now that the mathi is out, the erotica that will sign up will be ghost written crap.
> 
> Before KU1.0, the erotica price point was 2.99. It will be back and when it is, readers need to place the blame not on the authors, but on the people who wanted authors to participate in their publish-for-pennies program.


I have looked 3 times since noon. Here are the figures just for erotica. 
138,677 was at about noon. 137, 460 was at 330. At about 430, it was at 137,797.
So if I had to make a prediction, I would say it will balance. 
The ones that understand business will pull out or stay out, but there will be just as many that don't know any better that will join because exclusive, free promos, Yada Yada yada. 
Now whether the new stuff will be any good remains to be seen.


----------



## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

Exactly Kelli
The stuff going in was either submitted by people who don't know the math, have huge ghost-written catalogs that doesn't compete well in the market, or that was submitted before the KU math came out yesterday. 
Erotica will be mass pulled from KU. The KU selection of erotica isn't going to increase. All the authors I chat with have their get-out-of-Select-free requests into Amazon and/or are going to wait until 8-15 to confirm if KU 2.0 will be Amazon's publish-for-pennies program.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Yeah, but I'm seeing where a lot of the old-timers and bigger names have pulled out everything but their mega bundles. How long will KU erotica readers be willing to stick with the mass produced stuff that is ghostwritten by English as a 2nd language types?


I have to agree with you there.
But then how many readers (not counting romance) sign up for just one genre?


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

@ Someone,  I will gladly do a daily count.  If only because numbers fascinate me.
Checked just now.  Down to 137, 625.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Weird. Cin, When I go to the Amazon website and go into Kindle Books and scroll down the menu on the left there's an entry called "Kindle Unlimited Eligible" which shows 1,017,716 books currently enrolled. If I click on that and drill down through Lit&Fiction to Erotica it only shows 93,834. I wonder where the discrepancy comes from? I'm assuming you're getting your numbers browsing through your Kindle?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Weird. Cin, When I go to the Amazon website and go into Kindle Books and scroll down the menu on the left there's an entry called "Kindle Unlimited Eligible" which shows 1,017,716 books currently enrolled. If I click on that and drill down through Lit&Fiction to Erotica it only shows 93,834. I wonder where the discrepancy comes from? I'm assuming you're getting your numbers browsing through your Kindle?


I go to Amazon. Put kindle store in the department box, then type in erotica.


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## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

Cin
Erotica is very slow to go through review. I am hearing the same as Kelli. All the authors I know who take this seriously - who want to publish quality erotica - are pulling their stuff out in mass and won't be adding anything. Amazon is way behind in those requests. 

Because of the lag, you could be looking at numbers that incorporate books that were submitted before the 0.005 bomb. For example, I have 2 that were older works that I redid and are currently in review. When they publish, they will look like new 2 additions to KU erotica. However they are going to come out of KU as soon as they publish.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I show 1, 014,248 for total KU eligible books


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## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

Cin
TY. I'll keep an eye on your count


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

It's going to be really interesting to see what those numbers look like next week. A lot of people are still just finding out about this, and others are giving it a few days to see how their page counts look.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Someone,
I know KU is losing the good quality erotica authors.    My hope for all of you is that your sales bounce back immediately. 
One friend and I ran his numbers and there is no way he could stay in.  Anyway you sliced the math.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Someone said:


> Cin, when up to 10 people can be splitting the pay for a novel, I don't think you are going to see more erotica in KU2.0. The publishing will stop. Most of the erotica you see that is currently being put into KU is probably erotica that was submitted before the .005 math came out ( erotica is in the publishing/review stage much longer than other genres). Now that the mathi is out, the erotica that will sign up will be ghost written crap. The erotica that remains will be the ghost-written crap or remnants of a large catalog someone is working on.
> 
> Before KU1.0, the erotica price point was 2.99. It will be back and when it is, readers need to place the blame not on the authors, but on the people who wanted authors to participate in their publish-for-pennies program.


I put right on my author page it's because of Amazon not paying author's well enough. I also sent it out in a news letter to my mailing list. I'm not taking the blame for this crap.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I show 1, 014,248 for total KU eligible books


I'm getting a different number than you. I know someone in the UK posted and their #s were different.

Currently, I see 1,021,379 for the whole store. That has dropped from 1,024,275 I recorded yesterday morning.
I expected the 1 stars to drop and 4 stars to rise, but it seems fairly evenly distributed among 4-1 stars.


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## beachbum21k (Oct 22, 2013)

Will C. Brown said:


> Dirty Discourse


Do I have to have items in the Kindle store to join up or can I sign up with the intent to publish?


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Like I told the children's authors,  make it very clear that your books will just not be available to borrow but your readers can still buy them.
I saw that happen on a Facebook post, the author's fans thought she was leaving Amazon completely.    
Her exact quote was I am leaving Amazon Select.  Then the explanation.    Most people didn't read past Amazon.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Someone,
> I know KU is losing the good quality erotica authors. My hope for all of you is that your sales bounce back immediately.


The ghostwritten stuff will fade quickly, I think. In KU 1.0 those people could easily recoup their expenses for paying for the story and cover art within the first hour of the story going live. Most of their stories were coming in around 4k words or 16 pages, and it takes a lot longer to break even at 8 cents a borrow than it did at $1.35.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

It is also interesting on how our numbers are so varied.


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## LifesHumor (Feb 5, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> @ Someone, I will gladly do a daily count. If only because numbers fascinate me.
> Checked just now. Down to 137, 625.


Are you posting the number for total erotica books, because I'm seeing 92,767 for erotica in KU?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

LifesHumor said:


> Are you posting the number for total erotica books, because I'm seeing 92,767 for erotica in KU?


Nope, it said Kindle Unlimited Eligible. 
Total number is about 263,000.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_ime_i_1_2?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=erotica&sprefix=Er%2Cdigital-text%2C292
THERE is the exact page.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Now if I click the erotica from that page I get 93,691.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> It's going to be really interesting to see what those numbers look like next week. A lot of people are still just finding out about this, and others are giving it a few days to see how their page counts look.


I pulled some of mine the day they announced the change, but I've got two scheduled for Freeboosky ads, so those stay in since I already paid 200 bucks. Freebooksy always boosts my sales anyway. That's sales, not borrows, so I've never failed to earn my money back plus some.


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## LifesHumor (Feb 5, 2014)

Oh okay, I was looking under the erotica category.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=lp_9069934011_nr_n_14?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A133140011%2Cn%3A%21133143011%2Cn%3A%21251259011%2Cn%3A9069934011%2Cn%3A9075518011&bbn=9069934011&ie=UTF8&qid=1435875801&rnid=9069934011


----------



## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Navigator said:


> My books are going to be sold wide.
> 
> Doesn't matter if most readers read most, or even all of my books pages. I'm still going to be paid in peanuts if I go with KU.
> 
> ...


Sorry, hope it's okay to butt in with no invested stake in this, but I'm really curious. Are you all saying that you will be coming out of KU but staying with Amazon at 2.99 price point?
What is the harm of having the 2.99 price point AND KU? Surely those people who do borrows would just borrow something else rather than yours, so by keeping it in you still get _something_ on borrows and your sales would stay about the same? Or do you all think that people with KU subscriptions will end up buying your work instead of borrowing it if it is no longer in KU?

Also, where would you go wide? My understanding was that very few of the other outlets are any good for erotica?


----------



## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Evenstar said:


> Sorry, hope it's okay to butt in with no invested stake in this, but I'm really curious. Are you all saying that you will be coming out of KU but staying with Amazon at 2.99 price point?
> What is the harm of having the 2.99 price point AND KU? Surely those people who do borrows would just borrow something else rather than yours, so by keeping it in you still get _something_ on borrows and your sales would stay about the same? Or do you all think that people with KU subscriptions will end up buying your work instead of borrowing it if it is no longer in KU?
> 
> Also, where would you go wide? My understanding was that very few of the other outlets are any good for erotica?


My erotica sells very well on all outlets, though it can't get in some streaming services like Scribd (but they still sell it, it just isn't eligible for streaming).

Using me as an example, KU moves about double the units as non-Amazon retailers. So, if I were to keep my shorts in KU, I would make 2 borrows for around $.38, but lose out on one sale from other vendors for around $2.00. Obviously that doesn't make any financial sense.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

People were paying the $2.99 for the good stuff before KU.  I am pretty sure they will go back to paying it.
I think Amazon is the picky one about erotica. 


(Says the one that when she wants the good stuff just begs and offers reviews in exchange. )


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Evenstar said:


> Sorry, hope it's okay to butt in with no invested stake in this, but I'm really curious. Are you all saying that you will be coming out of KU but staying with Amazon at 2.99 price point?
> What is the harm of having the 2.99 price point AND KU? Surely those people who do borrows would just borrow something else rather than yours, so by keeping it in you still get _something_ on borrows and your sales would stay about the same? Or do you all think that people with KU subscriptions will end up buying your work instead of borrowing it if it is no longer in KU?
> 
> Also, where would you go wide? My understanding was that very few of the other outlets are any good for erotica?


The problem is the borrows will cannibalize the sales. Instead of 2.09 royalty you'll get 30 cents if you're lucky. Barnes and Nobles, Ibooks, Kobo and Excitica all sell erotica.


----------



## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Someone,
> I know KU is losing the good quality erotica authors. My hope for all of you is that your sales bounce back immediately.
> One friend and I ran his numbers and there is no way he could stay in. Anyway you sliced the math.


I can't either and I'm kinda bummed about it. When it was launched, I missed the 2.99 price point, but after seeing the impact for the readers, I was happy with it. It's a shame. Yeah, authors will initially feel some pain, but in the long run, it's gonna be the readers who are burdened with it. That's too bad.


----------



## Will C. Brown (Sep 24, 2013)

beachbum21k said:


> Do I have to have items in the Kindle store to join up or can I sign up with the intent to publish?


I don't think you have to have anything published. Check the site though. You just have to participate in discussions. They have a no lurking policy. Your account is disabled after a period of time if all you do is browse without posting.


----------



## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Someone,
> I know KU is losing the good quality erotica authors. My hope for all of you is that your sales bounce back immediately.
> One friend and I ran his numbers and there is no way he could stay in. Anyway you sliced the math.


Thank you Cin. I hope your friend is able to bounce back by going wide as well. =)


----------



## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

Evenstar said:


> Sorry, hope it's okay to butt in with no invested stake in this, but I'm really curious. Are you all saying that you will be coming out of KU but staying with Amazon at 2.99 price point?
> What is the harm of having the 2.99 price point AND KU? Surely those people who do borrows would just borrow something else rather than yours, so by keeping it in you still get _something_ on borrows and your sales would stay about the same? Or do you all think that people with KU subscriptions will end up buying your work instead of borrowing it if it is no longer in KU?
> 
> Also, where would you go wide? My understanding was that very few of the other outlets are any good for erotica?


Staying in KU while selling at $2.99 will simply canablize the potential sells.

It makes more sense to dump KU and go wide at the $2.99 price point. B&N, Apple, and Google are all still good places to publish at, right along side Amazon.

The smut readers will simply end up canceling their KU subscriptions if the majority of their favorite smut writers don't have their work in KU, which in turn will encourage them to buy the books at $2.99 instead of borrowing it, especially since they most likely wont be able to borrow the books they want anyways.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Note on Dirty Discourse,  there is or was a $10 fee to join.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Navigator said:


> Thank you Cin. I hope your friend is able to bounce back by going wide as well. =)


I hope all of you bounce back.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> I hope all of you bounce back.


 I'm sure everyone will. When I hear someone say I made 50k this year writing erotica for KU, my first thought is they probably would have made as much had KU never happened. The only reason it became absolutely necessary is because so many writers were in it to begin with. Now I think gradually things will go back to the way they were.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I think the good ones will still have a following.


----------



## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

Yeah, be good, improve your craft, and if possible find an underserved kink that's fun for you. The more extreme the kink, the higher the premium to have it served.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes. I think the people treating this as a serious career are going to do all right. It's going to be an adjustment, but so was dealing with KU 1.0 when it launched last summer. That hurt a lot of erotica writers as well when their sales dried up as the hardcore readers jumped into KU.

Smashwords and D2D are getting hammered right now.  #42 in the queue at Smash. I haven't seen a number that high in over a year.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

David S. said:


> From what I gather from reading the forums, writers were making money in erotica before KU, but it took time, work, and patience while building a catalog. KU eliminated most of that. You could put up a few shorts and see borrows within minutes. What took a year to build before was suddenly taking a month.
> 
> The problem now, as I see it, is that once you've offered an all-you-can-eat buffet for $10 it will be very hard to go back to charging $2.99 for each item on the buffet. Some people will stay and grudgingly pay, but others will go to McDonald's, or go on a diet.


Typically, erotica readers don't go on diets. They've always paid before and I think they still will, but they won't like it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> Typically, erotica readers don't go on diets. They've always paid before and I think they still will, but they won't like it.


Erotica readers should not bathe either. 
Kindles are not fond of water.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Erotica readers should not bathe either.
> Kindles are not fond of water.


*cough* Kobo *cough*


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> *cough* Kobo *cough*


Kobo's like baths


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

The Kobo Aura H2O is waterproof so you can read it in the bath.


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

KelliWolfe said:


> The Kobo Aura H2O is waterproof so you can read it in the bath.


*gasp* No way!


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Part of me wonders if all the erotica authors pulling out of KU is part of the plan. I mean it's no secret that some people jokingly call KU "Kink Unlimited" because of all the short erotica you can read. They are also making it super easy to pull books out and seem to be almost encouraging it. 

If all the number of smut books decreases it might be a good thing for KU's image. All done without any cries of "censorship" or other scandals. 

Either way... I first started this game writing short kinky transgender smut @ $2.99 a pop.  Got really burned out though and never really got my groove back. 

But this might be a good time to hop  back in and see if the old $2.99 rate stills sells for shorts. People will pay for kink - and as long as you don't anger the amazon censors it's sustainable.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Vicky Foxx said:


> Part of me wonders if all the erotica authors pulling out of KU is part of the plan. I mean it's no secret that some people jokingly call KU "Kink Unlimited" because of all the short erotica you can read. They are also making it super easy to pull books out and seem to be almost encouraging it.
> 
> If all the number of smut books decreases it might be a good thing for KU's image. All done without any cries of "censorship" or other scandals.
> 
> ...


I"m sure it's part of the plan, but I think for the same reason Scribd dumped romance. Too much free erotica was costing Amazon too much, since they were the ones paying for it and readers were going crazy sucking it up as fast as they could.


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## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm sure a voluntary removal of smut was a part of the plan, but I hope they realize that the only way to keep it out is to keep the per-page rate low.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

AdrianC said:


> I'm sure a voluntary removal of smut was a part of the plan, but I hope they realize that the only way to keep it out is to keep the per-page rate low.


I'm sure they'll keep it low. They don't want to pay 100k novels ten bucks per borrow. I bet it's not even half a cent per page by the end of the year. I think long writers will find themselves making about what they made before the change and that won't lure authors back in. Long writers didn't drop out because they didn't like shorts making as much money. They dropped out because they wanted to go wide and didn't like 1.35. The borrows ate up their sales. Also, i doubt every borrow will get a read through. It doesn't matter if you're a good writer. Not everyone who tries your book out for free in kU is going to like and finish it. Or they'll decide to return it without opening it because they saw another one that appeals to them more. Or they'll get busy and take a long time to get around to it. I downloaded Monique Martin's book last year and got busy. By the time I got back to it I had to start it over and only just now bought the second in the series. If she'd been in kU she would have been waiting six months to get paid for that.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

David S. said:


> From what I gather from reading the forums, writers were making money in erotica before KU, but it took time, work, and patience while building a catalog. KU eliminated most of that. You could put up a few shorts and see borrows within minutes. What took a year to build before was suddenly taking a month.
> 
> The problem now, as I see it, is that once you've offered an all-you-can-eat buffet for $10 it will be very hard to go back to charging $2.99 for each item on the buffet. Some people will stay and grudgingly pay, but others will go to McDonald's, or go on a diet.


Erotica is like chocolate. Not giving it up.


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## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

[/quote]


katrina46 said:


> I'm sure they'll keep it low. They don't want to pay 100k novels ten bucks per borrow. I bet it's not even half a cent per page by the end of the year. I think long writers will find themselves making about what they made before the change and that won't lure authors back in. Long writers didn't drop out because they didn't like shorts making as much money. They dropped out because they wanted to go wide and didn't like 1.35. The borrows ate up their sales. Also, i doubt every borrow will get a read through. It doesn't matter if you're a good writer. Not everyone who tries your book out for free in kU is going to like and finish it. Or they'll decide to return it without opening it because they saw another one that appeals to them more. Or they'll get busy and take a long time to get around to it. I downloaded Monique Martin's book last year and got busy. By the time I got back to it I had to start it over and only just now bought the second in the series. If she'd been in kU she would have been waiting six months to get paid for that.


I was thinking about that very thing yesterday. I tend to start novels and stop not because they're bad or uninteresting, but because school, work, or family gets in the way. So suddenly, it's been a few days or weeks since I stopped reading a particular novel. What do I do? Start a new one, because a) I can't just start where I left off with the old novel since I'm out of rhythm b) I don't want to reread something I've already read. So I'm in sort of a No Man's Land, too far in the first novel to start over, but so far that i can't finish it because I feel like I'd have forgotten certain parts.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

This is bringing back all my basic division skills. Luckily, they are listing page amounts by book. So, if I divide by the pages KU assigned for the book, I get sale units. Plus, I can see people are reading through my shorts. I mean, erotica, in its nature pulls people through to the pay-off. So, I think erotica shorts are more likely to get read through than other genres. The current KU Math is helping this theory.

I do think it is a change to go wide on a new series. I'm trying my Aussie male escort On Call series wide to see how it will do. The pain in the butt part is waiting forever for it to finally appear on other retailers. I'm keeping all my other series in KU until I see what kind of thing happens. I don't mind keeping the current series in it until I'm done with them. Plus, I think my plan of the First 10 is going to make me as much as I thought. This whole venture will just take a lot longer. 

Good thing I'm saving my backpay. I'm trying to make a go at this now due to medical issues keeping me able to do the day job. In a weird way, I have my dream to try out, writing for a year as a writer and seeing how I'll do. I guess the ultimate bottom line with all of this is keep writing, faster if you can. Thank God I signed up for Camp NaNo. Got the next short started for my Scottish Erotic series. However, I have a feeling it may be longer than the others now. ;-)


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## Julianna (Jun 28, 2015)

If we have two erotica series, can we list one with KU but place the second with other retailers, like BN?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Julianna said:


> If we have two erotica series, can we list one with KU but place the second with other retailers, like BN?


Yes, you just cannot list books you put in Select with other retailers.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Yes, Julianna. The deal with KU is that anything that you put into it is exclusive to Amazon and can't be distributed elsewhere. It doesn't mean you can't publish any of your other work elsewhere.

When I check the erotica category in KU today I get 90,976. That's down about 3000 titles from yesterday. Seems rather low, but a lot of people had their stuff categorized outside of erotica. When I search for "erotica" in Kindle eBooks it shows 135,028 titles in Kindle Unlimited Eligible.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Yes, Julianna. The deal with KU is that anything that you put into it is exclusive to Amazon and can't be distributed elsewhere. It doesn't mean you can't publish any of your other work elsewhere.
> 
> When I check the erotica category in KU today I get 90,976. That's down about 3000 titles from yesterday. Seems rather low, but a lot of people had their stuff categorized outside of erotica. When I search for "erotica" in Kindle eBooks it shows 135,028 titles in Kindle Unlimited Eligible.


Kelli, I checked yesterday at noon and the figure was 138,677. So it has dropped 3,649 in just over 24 hours.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Kelli, I checked yesterday at noon and the figure was 138,677. So it has dropped 3,649 in just over 24 hours.


I haven't gotten many sales since the first, but the red hasn't flat lined, so that's a good sign.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

The next few weeks are going to be the rough part. Successfully publishing wide is a lot more work than many of the people who jumped in for the KU gold rush are going to be interested in for long. A whole bunch of them are going to throw in the towel come August.


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## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

Does anyone think there was an algo change implemented with KU2.0? I'm seeing some rumblings from erotica authors that suggest as much.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> The next few weeks are going to be the rough part. Successfully publishing wide is a lot more work than many of the people who jumped in for the KU gold rush are going to be interested in for long. A whole bunch of them are going to throw in the towel come August.


It took me about a year to start making anything with erotica, partly because I worked 70 hours a week and couldn't be as prolific as I needed to be and partly because I didn't understand keywords. I'm saying six months to do better wide because I have the material and do know a little more, but it's definitely going to take time and some experimenting. But for me I like to write. I've been doing it since I was a kid, so if it took five years I'd still be at it in one genre or another.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

AdrianC said:


> Does anyone think there was an algo change implemented with KU2.0? I'm seeing some rumblings from erotica authors that suggest as much.


That seems to happen every time they do a big change. I flat lined when KU started last year, so I wouldn't be surprised, but this time it doesn't seem as bad. I've got like 1500 page reads so far for the stories I have left in kU. That's $7.50 big ones, lol.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

AdrianC said:


> Does anyone think there was an algo change implemented with KU2.0? I'm seeing some rumblings from erotica authors that suggest as much.


It's very possible. What kind of changes are they talking about?

My ranking shot way up after I pulled everything yesterday and it has now slowly decayed to where it was and looks like it's still dropping. All of my book rankings are sinking now, including the ones that have never been in KU. That's pretty much what I expected to happen as I lose also-boughts from the readers borrowing the KU titles.


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## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> It's very possible. What kind of changes are they talking about?
> 
> My ranking shot way up after I pulled everything yesterday and it has now slowly decayed to where it was and looks like it's still dropping. All of my book rankings are sinking now, including the ones that have never been in KU. That's pretty much what I expected to happen as I lose also-boughts from the readers borrowing the KU titles.


For some still in KU, a dropping of rank since July 1st and/or a sudden disappearance of borrows altogether. It could just be a glitch, or the holiday.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> That seems to happen every time they do a big change. I flat lined when KU started last year, so I wouldn't be surprised, but this time it doesn't seem as bad. I've got like 1500 page reads so far for the stories I have left in kU. That's $7.50 big ones, lol.


We can split a value meal at McDonald's.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

AdrianC said:


> For some still in KU, a dropping of rank since July 1st and/or a sudden disappearance of borrows altogether. It could just be a glitch, or the holiday.


Maybe they *really* want to encourage us to GTFO of KU. Fine by me. I'm already picking up the difference in sales on the former KU titles on B&N and Kobo.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

The thing I've noticed since KU2 started is that buys of my two remaining KU titles hit the month-to-date unit sales in a few hours, same as always, while the books not in KU show up on the graph, but don't "process" for 12-24 hours (in one case, almost 48 hours). Now, I know things like credit card processing affect that chart, but it seems odd that ONLY the non-select titles are affected.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

dianapersaud said:


> Lady of the Night? Gentleman/men of the Night if you are going to do one with guys?


I ended up calling it the "On Call" series. That way I can do both. ;-) Thanks for the suggestions.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

AdrianC said:


> Does anyone think there was an algo change implemented with KU2.0? I'm seeing some rumblings from erotica authors that suggest as much.


I noticed that it's taken over 2 weeks for things to turn back to a normal borrow situation. All my sales from my June promo disappeared, and now are starting to finally to get back to some normal. I've got another promo planned at the beginning of August to jumpstart things again.


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## cherryhips (Jul 18, 2015)

I was looking for a thread for erotica writers. I've got 2 romance novels completed but I'm new to the whole self publishing erotica game. I am writing like crazy. I heard that shorts were the way to go but now I am hearing otherwise. Because of a new version of KU? I will start publishing my short erotica that I already have planned. I'll see how it does but if it doesn't do well I guess I'll need a new plan.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> Maybe they *really* want to encourage us to GTFO of KU. Fine by me. I'm already picking up the difference in sales on the former KU titles on B&N and Kobo.


My sales are picking up on Barnes and Nobles and ibooks, so my next five stories are going wide. My bundles in KU get page reads, so I don't think they have a problem with erotica being in there, but the ones that get the reads are romantic erotica with tame titles and covers, so maybe there's something in that. How the heck do you sell on Kobo. I've sold one book there ever and that was like a year ago. PM me if you ever have time. I would love to know what I'm doing wrong over there.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

My B&N sales have doubled this month since I pushed all of my former KU titles there. 

iTunes is problematic. I can't seem to get any traction there, and since they've started kicking back "best friend's daughter" stories as content violations and D2D is refusing to push anything that has any hint of reluctance now - even with explicit consent up front - I'm probably never going to. They've got the store set up so erotica doesn't hit the rankings and it's difficult to find, so I've given up on them ever being any significant source of income.

Up until May my sales on Kobo were about double my B&N sales and growing. Then they changed something and my sales dropped by more than 50% overnight and have never come back. I got most of my KU titles up there as well, and it hasn't made the slightest bit of difference. I think part of the problem is that people have been sneaking in PI and other stories that violate their content policies through Smashwords, and the readers are snatching those up as fast as they can before they get blocked. Since there are no keywords and they'll block for parentheticals, the only thing I know of to do there is to use a descriptive title. They've got essentially the same content policy as Apple, though, so that can be tough to do without getting blocked.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> My B&N sales have doubled this month since I pushed all of my former KU titles there.
> 
> iTunes is problematic. I can't seem to get any traction there, and since they've started kicking back "best friend's daughter" stories as content violations and D2D is refusing to push anything that has any hint of reluctance now - even with explicit consent up front - I'm probably never going to. They've got the store set up so erotica doesn't hit the rankings and it's difficult to find, so I've given up on them ever being any significant source of income.
> 
> Up until May my sales on Kobo were about double my B&N sales and growing. Then they changed something and my sales dropped by more than 50% overnight and have never come back. I got most of my KU titles up there as well, and it hasn't made the slightest bit of difference. I think part of the problem is that people have been sneaking in PI and other stories that violate their content policies through Smashwords, and the readers are snatching those up as fast as they can before they get blocked. Since there are no keywords and they'll block for parentheticals, the only thing I know of to do there is to use a descriptive title. They've got essentially the same content policy as Apple, though, so that can be tough to do without getting blocked.


I'm very surprised at how conservative Apple and Kobo are compared to Amazon.

Stuff that goes through fine on Amazon - nothing sneaky- completely honest about what it is- gets published without a word from Amazon. Apple and Kobo block it. I guess they don't know their market like Amazon does.

Not sure if ARe will take PI. But they allow dub con.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

dianapersaud said:


> I'm very surprised at how conservative Apple and Kobo are compared to Amazon.
> 
> Stuff that goes through fine on Amazon - nothing sneaky- completely honest about what it is- gets published without a word from Amazon. Apple and Kobo block it. I guess they don't know their market like Amazon does.
> 
> Not sure if ARe will take PI. But they allow dub con.


ARe does not take PI.

I think Apple and Kobo know their markets quite well - because they've both taken steps to make it as hard as possible to sell there. They just don't like erotica. Well, they're fine with it if your name is Anais Nin and it's "litereary" erotica. They just don't want filthy smut peddlers in their stores. I'm sure the only reason they put up with it at all is because they know if they got rid of it completely they'd essentially be handing the entire ebook market to Amazon on a gold platter.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

dianapersaud said:


> I'm very surprised at how conservative Apple and Kobo are compared to Amazon.
> 
> Stuff that goes through fine on Amazon - nothing sneaky- completely honest about what it is- gets published without a word from Amazon. Apple and Kobo block it. I guess they don't know their market like Amazon does.
> 
> Not sure if ARe will take PI. But they allow dub con.


I totally hear you. I went wide on my Aussie male escort short. But just KU2 with my latest release since it is the last in my Scottish Erotic series. The whole first scene is a continued scene from the previous book which is basically getting taken in the castle storage chamber and being discovered. Amazon's sample is the whole scene until the discovery. I was totally excited that they allowed it. I don't know if the other venues would. Kind of impressed right now with Amazon. I'm keeping the hot stuff really near the end, but maybe I should put some more upfront. Still can't figure out why Kobo hasn't put up _The Perfect Escort_ yet. Still not up. Getting frustrated there. Will have to wait to see how sales are on B&N and iBooks to see how I'm doing with a series wide. At least, the KU2 reads are showing people are reading through my whole stories.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Heah everyone! Now that it's been enough time in July, I'm starting to see a return to my beginning sales back in March and April.

With a little math, I can figure borrows from the page count.

So far this month:

Sales:12
Borrows: 8

I just released a new Scottish Erotic tale, so that has helped some. I'm just writing off July as a bad month, keep writing, and hope the free promo I have planned on Aug. 3 helps perk things up. Still having problems with my Aussie male escort series not coming up on Kobo, and waiting for sales from B&N and iBook to see how it is doing. So, feeling like I've taken several steps back, but am still moving ahead with releases and writing. *Sigh* Whenever something knocks you down, just brush off the dust, pick yourself up, and keep going. That's what KU2 feels like now.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Thought I'd bump this to see how all of you are doing. 
I've got my Aug. promo running. Seeing good results. 
Just made #1 in Top 100 for Erotica!
#50 in Free Kindle store.

Over 2,800 free downloads first day of promo. 
Day two has, of course, slowed down, but being that high on the lists should help spur it on.
I've got a thread with the list of promo sites I used for erotica. 
Here's the link:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,219097.0.html


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Bumping again. Everything drying up for everyone? How's the new KU going for you? 

I'm noticing my promo is pretty much getting the same kind of downloads like before in June, except I'm getting paid downloads a lot more than KU reads. Which might make up for the loss on KU now. Still having trouble with the fact my one wide title isn't on KOBO, but it came up on iTunes and B&N. It's my male escort story. Not sure if the subject matter would make a difference, and maybe Kobo blocked it. I mean, if Pretty Woman was a hit, then the reversed version should work. But hey, who knows why things don't come up.

Working feverishly on my next short to come out for my vampire bordello series in spite of the 1 star reviews that keep popping up on my current promo'ed title. I mean, that's one thing to be aware of with the freebie promos: you get people that aren't used to reading erotica shorts downloading it. Then, there are the complaints it's short in the first place, even when free. So, just a heads up. People are still buying in spite of the 3 1 stars because the erotica review sites that reviewed it LOVED IT. So, it's a mixed lot with the freebie promos. Just saying.


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## BruceK (Aug 8, 2015)

cherryhips said:


> I was looking for a thread for erotica writers. I've got 2 romance novels completed but I'm new to the whole self publishing erotica game. I am writing like crazy. I heard that shorts were the way to go but now I am hearing otherwise. Because of a new version of KU? I will start publishing my short erotica that I already have planned. I'll see how it does but if it doesn't do well I guess I'll need a new plan.


Hi Cherryhips,

I'm in nearly the exact same situation as you. Published 3 erotica shorts (7000+ words), 2 of which are part of a trilogy, and I'm finishing up the final part of that. It's been about a month since I put the first one out, and I just got my first sale Friday. Then two more today. I'd love to see it as the beginning trickle of what will soon become a gushing waterfall, but I'm not that optimistic.
I'm not part of KU because I thought it would be better to branch out to be seen on ARe and B&N and the like.

Bruce.


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## Kendall York (Jul 31, 2015)

Hi all!

Just joined here.

Put my short reads into KU.

Have no idea what to expect.

Just happy to be writing and to have found this place.


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## Scatterdown (May 3, 2015)

I started with some erotic novellas (part of a series) last week, but given that it's a plotty epic, I'm leaning towards releasing a short novel once a month/six weeks rather than a novella every fortnight. 

I've had a LOT more sales than borrows. I'm starting to regret going into KU. Exposure my ass!


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## rayhensley (Apr 16, 2011)

Off topic...
Tuesday Chase, I really like your avatar/book cover of that person on fire, lol


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## Eric S. Kim (Oct 22, 2014)

I _really_ have to work hard in the next 6 weeks. There's a short-story collection of m/m erotica that I'm concentrating on. There will be a total of 4 volumes in this series, with a total of 25 stories (all set in present day) for each collection.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Kendall York said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Just joined here.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the party! My erotica romances are still making the most out of my genres despite KU2 changes. I'm making a lot less than on the old KU, but I'm still making some cash. Not crying over split milk. Just keep at the writing. Best way to approach it all.

Just put up my new vampire bordello short for preorder and had my Scottish Erotic short on a promo. It's been an interesting two weeks. There is survival in the new KU2. Just write some good stuff, and you'll get readers. You just need a lot more than before. A steady income is better than no income, right?

If you need any help, feel free to post. I'm working on a preview promo for my newsletter subscribers to bring in more reviews. Still waiting for results. Will let you all know what happens with this latest release.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

I tried to add my stepbro romance to iTunes and they refused; saying content violation. So now it is in KU. The first book released today. It hit #9 in Hot New List in AM. Book 2 releases in 2 weeks with book 3 and 4 to follow. I have placed a few ads with bknights, ShamelessBookClub, Goodreads and Genre Pulse. Genre pulse blew off the ad and isn't responding to emails - hope to get a refund. Goodreads has had 2 clicks out of 4 ads. That is a big fail. I tried to get an add in Naughty List, but wasn't available for the day I wanted.

I am so new to this genre, but determined to do well in it with so many readers wanting these kinds of books.

I already posted a holiday romance one-off on Amazon today for release in November, and have a new 4-book short series (Stepbrother/paranormal) in the works.

Would be so nice to make a living at writing for a change!


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2015)

I'm doing terrible!   Which is to be expected considering I haven't even started yet. But I'm very glad I've found this place and I hope to contribute soon! 

Question meanwhile: I have four shorts that are almost ready. Should I release them all at one or space them out? And what would be the best prices?


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

Space them out 2-3 weeks apart so that you can be on the hot new release list for a longer period of time. If erotica or sexy romance, $2.99; even for short works. The first book can be free or .99 to get the ball rolling.



Hero_Huggins said:


> I'm doing terrible!  Which is to be expected considering I haven't even started yet. But I'm very glad I've found this place and I hope to contribute soon!
> 
> Question meanwhile: I have four shorts that are almost ready. Should I release them all at one or space them out? And what would be the best prices?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

August was bad, but I know a lot of writers in all genres and not one of them said it was good. I made it into an erotica multi-author boxed sex of Selena Kitt's coming out Friday. I think (hope) that might turn things around for me in the next couple of weeks. It sure can't hurt.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2015)

PatriceWilliamsMarks said:


> Space them out 2-3 weeks apart so that you can be on the hot new release list for a longer period of time. If erotica or sexy romance, $2.99; even for short works. The first book can be free or .99 to get the ball rolling.


Will do, thank you!


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

I'd have to agree. August wasn't the best month for me, but I did run a promo. I think that saved it. September is a bit slower for me right now. I've had a slow down in erotica writing as I worked on other projects for two weeks. Now, I'm back working on a new series, and going to wrap up with my vampire series before a promo in the beginning of October. Seems the big secret is to just churn out shorts to add to your catalog. I can see people work through a series as the reads climb and fall. Now that I've taken a year off from the day job, I'm all about writing these days. Good to see I can focus on it during the Fall now. How are you all doing?


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## Dr Luck (Mar 29, 2015)

July and August were quite a step down from my June earnings. As I was still in my first year as a writer I wasn't sure whether this was down to KU2  or a seasonal / summer slump. Either way I expected a decent upturn this month but the reality so far is a further decline. 

I've been releasing work at a steady rate of 1 title / month although the last 2 months have been bundles of previous shorts only. Bit depressing really, although I do have another "original" title out at the end of the month so fingers crossed


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Dr Luck said:


> July and August were quite a step down from my June earnings. As I was still in my first year as a writer I wasn't sure whether this was down to KU2 or a seasonal / summer slump. Either way I expected a decent upturn this month but the reality so far is a further decline.
> 
> I've been releasing work at a steady rate of 1 title / month although the last 2 months have been bundles of previous shorts only. Bit depressing really, although I do have another "original" title out at the end of the month so fingers crossed


I've had a slow down now all month. When ever I've done a promo, the sales that month are much better. Might have to change to doing one promo a month. It totally helps. Releasing the new series this week, and got the Oct. promo scheduled. Anyone else trying things to bump sales?


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Anybody get 1 star zapped on Goodreads lately? I think the trolls must be at it again. I had it happen to another pen name before over a year ago. I guess it's just a matter of time before the wagons circle and gang up on someone else. Someone 1 starred all 10 shorts of mine bringing all my ratings down. Hard when you're still starting out, esp. for the shorts without ratings yet. Anybody finding that Goodreads is active with trolls again?


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

judygoodwin said:


> Have you been posting to threads in Goodreads? Otherwise I'd just call it a fluke. I get a one star now and then, but generally not all at once like that. That usually indicates someone's ticked off about something.
> 
> I haven't noticed anything different on Goodreads. I do well over there, but that's because I stick to posting in certain groups and religiously follow rules for each group.


No I haven't. But I ran a freebie promo for my vampire series. One of the one star raters has over 14,000 ratings with 99% of them one stars. Why else would someone rate that many books with a one star? Real people are up and down in their ratings. They don't one star every book. But luckily, I had a promo ad run on a vampire website and those readers totally LOVED the vampire pleasures series. So, they wrote great reviews and gave it 4 and 5 stars. So, I'm chopping it up to just putting your stuff out there. It will find trolls and the people that really love your stuff. Part of the learning curve of publishing.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Any erotica writers still out there? How you all doing?  
KU2 aside, anyone got Christmas/Holiday shorts out there?
I've just finished one, and I'm going to upload next week. Do they sell well? 
Any special promos to consider? It's about 5K, so definitely on the erotic short side.
Got the cover done, and just need my editor to look it over.

Anyone erotica writers have Christmas erotic shorts out there? How do they do?


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