# Which Romance Sub-genres are the Most and Least Saturated?



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

How do you even research such a thing?


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## LindsayBuroker (Oct 13, 2013)

Stay away from contemporary romance.  It takes something like a 300 sales ranking to make the 100th spot on the list. 

I think time travel romance is the least competitive. Just click on the sales ranking of the 100th book in any romance subcategory and see what it takes to rank. If you watch the category for a while, you can also see if there's a lot of churn (new books be published and quickly dropping off the lists) or if books that are at the top stay there for a while. That might mean there's not enough supply for the demand and that the audience is hungry.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Romance reader here. Non saturated means stuff I am looking for to read. 

Steam punk romance
Sci fi romance
time travel romance
historical paranormal romance
historical romance in american revolution time and colonial. 

I have more but thats all coming to my brain now.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Crystal_ said:


> How do you even research such a thing?


I do a lot of keyword searches and looking at book rankings.

Gothic romances are fairly unsaturated.

Keep in mind that "unsaturated" could also mean "less popular." If you're fine with that, look at the subcategories specifically at the Kindle Store (not "Books" at Amazon). What's less populated than the others? What takes a lower rank to get on the top 100 chart?


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm sure there was a post on here a few months back on how to research stuff like that. Might be worth digging around for.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

LindsayBuroker said:


> Stay away from contemporary romance.  It takes something like a 300 sales ranking to make the 100th spot on the list.
> 
> I think time travel romance is the least competitive. Just click on the sales ranking of the 100th book in any romance subcategory and see what it takes to rank. If you watch the category for a while, you can also see if there's a lot of churn (new books be published and quickly dropping off the lists) or if books that are at the top stay there for a while. That might mean there's not enough supply for the demand and that the audience is hungry.


I wonder if that is because most New Adult books are also categorized under contemporary romance. And a lot of erotic romance is categorized there as well.


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## Jenny Schwartz (Mar 4, 2011)

I've been waiting for gothic to come back for years. I think some of it's hiding under steampunk. I'll be interested what other forms it takes. That whole heroine-in-peril that's not romantic suspense


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Jenny Schwartz said:


> I've been waiting for gothic to come back for years. I think some of it's hiding under steampunk. I'll be interested what other forms it takes. That whole heroine-in-peril that's not romantic suspense


I think the gothics with supernatural elements are hiding in the paranormal romance category, where they get swamped by more erotic and mainstream PNR books.


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## Jenny Schwartz (Mar 4, 2011)

Good point!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

CJArcher said:


> I think the gothics with supernatural elements are hiding in the paranormal romance category, where they get swamped by more erotic and mainstream PNR books.


Yup! I've tried finding a few and they are out there - and lots of them - but FINDING them can be a PITA.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Sci fi romance
> [snip]
> historical paranormal romance


Those are two sub genres I want to tackle next when I successfully clone myself.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

LindsayBuroker said:


> I think time travel romance is the least competitive. Just click on the sales ranking of the 100th book in any romance subcategory and see what it takes to rank. If you watch the category for a while, you can also see if there's a lot of churn (new books be published and quickly dropping off the lists) or if books that are at the top stay there for a while. That might mean there's not enough supply for the demand and that the audience is hungry.


Time travel gives me the biggest headache. I start asking myself... wait... how does that actually work... but... but the paradox!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

DO WHAT STAR TREK DOES


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> DO WHAT STAR TREK DOES


You'll need to explain that for this non-Trekkie. 

I agree with time travel being an under-served popular category right now. The Outlander TV series has rekindled interest in it. I wanted to make my next series a TT but it didn't turn out that way for Reasons.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Sports romance has less titles in it. 
Time travel has less titles in it.
Gothic romance has only 905 titles at present.
Military romance is still not over crowded.

One author explained that she started writing sports romance because it was not a crowded genre. 
Sports is not my favourite subject so I don't know if i could write a sports romance.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I usually turn the other way when sport is a theme in a romance, but that is because the only sport I am interested in is Tennis. I think so far I found 1, ONE romance novel about a tennis player. One. I don't even think Tennis is a category. IN the US its all about football, baseball and basketball I guess. 
I am reading one now that has some Ice Hockey players in it, nice change of pace there.

And more adult contemporary romances are needed. I am not talking adult as in erotic, I mean non teenagers. Non NA contemporary romances. The top 100 in contempo is pretty useless. One shouldn't use that to determine what sells in romance and what doesn't. That is because a lot of that is being stuffed in there is not even romance. Its just being put there. It might sell, but its still not romance. This is especially a problem in contemporary romance which is the catch all now for any kind of erotica shorts, porn, serial, etc.

I think its better to go where the actual romance readers speak to see what is wanted, talked about. Lots of threads about tropes and such on amazon romance forum. There is Dearauthor and SBTB. I can't spell the last one for KB filter. Both are large romance blogs and they often have much commented on posts on things that are on readers mind as far as settings, tropes, etc. There is other stuff. We romance readers love to talk and talk and talk about the books we read, or want to read, or bought over the weekend. 



Krista D. Ball said:


> Those are two sub genres I want to tackle next when I successfully clone myself.


Get on it woman.


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## Genre Hoarder (Oct 4, 2014)

I have several series in four of the sub-genres mentioned that I will be releasing beginning in a couple of weeks. I'm excited to see that there are readers looking for these kind of books.

Gothic
Sci-fi
Time Travel
Sports


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## AngelaQuarles (Jun 22, 2014)

Time travel romance and steampunk romance writer here, and I'll say that time travel is well worth it, as it's underserved _and_ has hungry readers. Whereas, I'm finding the demand not as high for my steampunk. It's hard too, because there's not a steampunk category under romance. I will also freely admit that it might just be me doing something wrong with my marketing for the steampunk.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I write sports romance among other things. Be aware that for the past year or so, it's been heavily dominated by angsty NA MMA fighters. But yes, I've had 6 books in the top 30 there at times. 

I also write adult romance: people around 28-35. Mature. This seems to be an underserved niche. For women who on't necessarily want women's fiction without a hunky guy or happy ending, but don't want to read about immature people miscommunicating and being stupid as we all were in our early 20s. I get lots of reader comments about this. 

However, it's hard to stand out in the very crowded contemp romance area. Which is dominated by other things. One reason I'm writing more romantic suspense. Much smaller genre with relatively few beataelling authors, and lots of readers who seem to enjoy a more complicated story.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Atunah said:


> I usually turn the other way when sport is a theme in a romance, but that is because the only sport I am interested in is Tennis. I think so far I found 1, ONE romance novel about a tennis player. One. I don't even think Tennis is a category. IN the US its all about football, baseball and basketball I guess.
> I am reading one now that has some Ice Hockey players in it, nice change of pace there.
> 
> And more adult contemporary romances are needed. I am not talking adult as in erotic, I mean non teenagers. Non NA contemporary romances. The top 100 in contempo is pretty useless. One shouldn't use that to determine what sells in romance and what doesn't. That is because a lot of that is being stuffed in there is not even romance. Its just being put there. It might sell, but its still not romance. This is especially a problem in contemporary romance which is the catch all now for any kind of erotica shorts, porn, serial, etc.
> ...


The top 100 in romance and contemporary romance is so mixed and varied right now. On a day to day basis I see some erotica in there, some clean romance, lots of NA and right now step-brother romance which should become it's own sub-category. i find it amusing to see one book start a trend which just goes on and on. There has been step-brother erotic stories for a while now but there is a new step-brother romance story every day now.

There is quite a few sports romance books doing extremely well in several categories. The only contemporary (adult not YA) tennis romance book I could see was Wildcard by Missy Johnson http://www.amazon.com/Wildcard-One-Missy-Johnson-ebook/dp/B00MR2MK98/ref=sr_1_4?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1426948760&sr=1-4&keywords=wild+card

I don't know if a Scottish step-brother time travel story would do well. Or maybe a sci-fi step-brother billionaire story.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> I write sports romance among other things. Be aware that for the past year or so, it's been heavily dominated by angsty NA MMA fighters. But yes, I've had 6 books in the top 30 there at times.
> 
> I also write adult romance: people around 28-35. Mature. This seems to be an underserved niche. For women who on't necessarily want women's fiction without a hunky guy or happy ending, but don't want to read about immature people miscommunicating and being stupid as we all were in our early 20s. I get lots of reader comments about this.
> 
> However, it's hard to stand out in the very crowded contemp romance area. Which is dominated by other things. One reason I'm writing more romantic suspense. Much smaller genre with relatively few beataelling authors, and lots of readers who seem to enjoy a more complicated story.


Yes that's true about the NA MMA fighters. I like that you have written about a sport that is not written about or might be quite unknown to some people. I like being introduced to new things through books and movies.

I find it inspiring that you are having success writing in underserved niches, despite the fact that NA is dominating the charts right now.

There's three things I find interesting about your books. 1. Your covers set your books apart from a lot of the books in the romance charts. 2. You set your books in New Zealand, which is a place I know nothing about. 3. Again you write about a sport which is not as well known in the USA.

I'd say you took some risks writing something quite different and it has paid off.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Ooh, I like paranormal historical


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

katetanner said:


> Yes that's true about the NA MMA fighters. I like that you have written about a sport that is not written about or might be quite unknown to some people. I like being introduced to new things through books and movies.
> 
> I find it inspiring that you are having success writing in underserved niches, despite the fact that NA is dominating the charts right now.
> 
> ...


thanks. I don't only write that though. When the NZ books went big, I wrote a crazy book about a bunch of people competing on a historical reenactment reality show in rural idaho. That book has sold really well. It doesn't fit neatly into anything, and that's what some people enjoyed. There are lots of reviews that said, "different." And some that hated it because it was only half about the romance. But I do think there is a group of readers who want to read something a little different.

I also switch subgenres within series. It makes my reviews more uneven as some people are disappointed, but it makes me happy and keeps me and some readers interested. The book above was followed by a mystery/suspense, and then by a straight CR that was also my most serious, angsty book.

I'm not at all sure that is a good path, but there are a lot of sometimes-romance readers out there who aren't turned on by current trends. I was one of them, which is why I started writing my own books in the first place.

But yes. CR is a tough subgenre to crack.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

katetanner said:


> The top 100 in romance and contemporary romance is so mixed and varied right now. On a day to day basis I see some erotica in there, some clean romance, lots of NA and right now step-brother romance which should become it's own sub-category. i find it amusing to see one book start a trend which just goes on and on. There has been step-brother erotic stories for a while now but there is a new step-brother romance story every day now.
> 
> There is quite a few sports romance books doing extremely well in several categories. The only contemporary (adult not YA) tennis romance book I could see was Wildcard by Missy Johnson http://www.amazon.com/Wildcard-One-Missy-Johnson-ebook/dp/B00MR2MK98/ref=sr_1_4?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1426948760&sr=1-4&keywords=wild+card
> 
> I don't know if a Scottish step-brother time travel story would do well. Or maybe a sci-fi step-brother billionaire story.


You got my hope up with that Tennis book, but alas its not a full book. Just 100 pages. To me its only a romance if I get the full story in one with the HEA/HFN. Its why I don't count serials as romance.

The search continues.

Rosalind did tap into a lot of romance reader catnips. "Exotic" setting, different from usual sport, targeting those that are tired of the gazillion NA and drama lama type romances. Don't get me wrong, I like the drama lama angst once in a while myself, but I also want grown up contemporary romance. 
Not sure when it happened that early 20 somethings now have to act like big immature babies and how its all New Adult now. I been reading romance for a long time and it used to be just regular contemporary romance in that age group. Hard for me to relate since I went to work full time at 16, moved on my own with car payments at 18.

Not saying those NA books shouldn't be around, just that it kind of pushed the regular contemporary romances out of sight. But readers of such are still around, just not as visible I think.

Time travel romance has always been one of my favorite sub genre. Montlake has a series out of new books, Monique has a TT flavored series, but mostly I resort to reading back list titles. There used to be lines from publishers dedicated to TT. Time Swept was one of those. I love seeing all the good TT come back in ebook.

The other sub genre I love but its hard to find stuff is historical paranormal romance. Its so much fun. It combines my beloved historical romance genre with a touch of either gothic, or weird, or whatever. Doesn't have to be just vampires, there are other options.

Which brings me to paranormal romances that are not about vampires, weres and witches. Nor fallen angels. Demons are getting more love. But how about other paranormal thingies and themes.

I think just looking at what is selling now in the best seller at amazon is not really showing what readers are hungry for. With mis categorizing and trends changing, you miss out on the stuff that we other readers are buying and reading. Most of what I read is rarely in any top 100. I can't even see anymore past 100. I miss that actually. I used to be able to browse down to 1000 or so in the genres. Bestselling, not new and popular which is useless to me.

And is MMA fighting even a sport? . Especially how its described in the books.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Western romance still a big thing. My new Montlake series is set in Idaho. Not Cowboys, but Cowboys are still very popular. And Cowboys tend to be strong and grown up. Western romance will tend to be more adult. My new series is very adult. And very suspenseful. I'll be interested to see how it does.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm not sure saturated matters, though. I mean, you'd think billionaires were saturated, but about everybody I know making big money in romance has "billionaire" in the title and is raking it in. I won't because, well, I won't, I think it's stupid and I wouldn't read a book with billionaire in the title, so that's that--but no question, putting that in the title is money in the bank, so to speak.

Ditto BDSM and erom in general, and shapeshifting, woman-sharing, curve-preferring wolves. I mean, there's a ton of it out there, but that's because it SELLS a ton. So if what you primarily want is to make money, I'd write what's selling now. Bring on the tortured and torturing billionaires.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I have a feeling you'll do quite well with it Rosalind. Romantic suspense is a very popular sub genre. 

Montlake does a good job getting their books in front of readers. I see them all the time as screensavers, ads and such. 

Cowboys yes, they are still around. Mostly contempo. Ellen O'Connell pretty much has the historical western sub genre to her self when it comes to indies. Some publishers still put them out too. 

As far as publishers playing with some of those sub genres, I found Sourcebooks does that a lot. They have the historical paranormal ones, although theirs are often more humorous, they have the male romance writer doing romantic suspense with military heroines, they have time travels. I think they are really playing around and with the subgenres there. 

I thought it'd be more indies doing that, but that isn't what I see overall. Loveswept (random House) brought back a category line they retired years ago and they are full swing putting out sub genres in romance and make them affordable also. Those digital first lines are really kicking it up a notch. And they are affordable. Love Swept titles are $2.99 for most. New releases. 

Its just the best time ever now to be a romance reader. I can have access now to everything. Gimme gimme.


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## SnarkyMommy (Aug 14, 2014)

I wrote a sports serial romance and I'm having the damnedest time with it. Not getting any strong ranking in the category at all. But it's chugging along, little by little. The final installment (Book 6) will be out next week and then I'm planning to bundle parts 1-3 and 3-6 and we'll see what happens. It gets good reviews and even someone who said it was very well-written, which was validating. 

I've not outed the pen name, but for anyone who wants to check it out, PM me and I will tell you! It's in Kindle Unlimited.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Atunah said:


> Which brings me to paranormal romances that are not about vampires, weres and witches. Nor fallen angels. Demons are getting more love. But how about other paranormal thingies and themes.


Fae are fairly popular, but there are only so many paranormal critters that are both anthropomorphic enough to be the MC of a romance (zombies and minotaurs need not apply) and distinct enough in terms of their physical/magical traits to set them apart from the already popular character types so they're not just <obscure magical thingie that's basically a demon but with a funny name that no one is sure how to pronounce>. I do get your point, though. Personally I'm bored to death with exquisitely beautiful, oversexed vampires and rough, overbearing alpha-hole weres - most of whom apparently just can't wait to share their new-found BBW mate with their best friend. There's definitely room for some fresh twists and ideas in the genre.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Well, one of the reasons Contemporary is so crowded is that it is a second category for SO MANY THINGS. Yes, it is western, but it is also contemporary, yes it is inspy, but it is also contemporary. Contemporary is VAST. It is very difficult to get noticed there. I hate to say it, but if you are writing contemporary it does make sense to try and see if you can hit a smaller niche. Am I _sure_ one of my MCs isn't a doctor, or a cowboy, or a firefighter?


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Two words (or one hyphenated word, depends on how you look at it) - step-brothers. I was perusing the top 100 romances last night, and, I swear to god, about one quarter of them or more had the word "stepbrother" in the title. And each of the step-brother books had the same cover, too - a man chest, no head. Usually a tattooed man chest at that. 

Makes me wonder if I should invent a pen name and slap one of those babies out before the trend drops off. I'm quite sure that those books ain't Shakespeare.


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

Jenny Schwartz said:


> I've been waiting for gothic to come back for years. I think some of it's hiding under steampunk. I'll be interested what other forms it takes. That whole heroine-in-peril that's not romantic suspense


You and me both!


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Atunah said:


> You got my hope up with that Tennis book, but alas its not a full book. Just 100 pages. To me its only a romance if I get the full story in one with the HEA/HFN. Its why I don't count serials as romance.
> 
> The search continues.


Sorry, that's the only adult tennis romance book i could find. It's got some good reviews.

I like some serials, but most I leave because I'm not prepared to pay for 3 or 6 or 9 books which add up to the price of a hardback trad book. I also don't enjoy waiting for the next book to come out. I do prefer full length novels too, especially shorter novels I can read in a day or two.

However, I did read and enjoy J.J. Knights serials. She writes some sports romance (MMA fighters).

There are so many sports that are not written about. I don't see any popular basketball romances, only a few motor sport romances. Where's the sexy table tennis player, badminton player, sprinter, cricket player or golfer?


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Angela Quarles said:


> Time travel romance and steampunk romance writer here, and I'll say that time travel is well worth it, as it's underserved _and_ has hungry readers.


This ^^


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

anniejocoby said:


> Two words (or one hyphenated word, depends on how you look at it) - stepbrothers. I was perusing the top 100 romances last night, and, I swear to god, about one quarter of them or more had the word "stepbrother" in the title. And each of the stepbrother books had the same cover, too - a man chest, no head. Usually a tattooed man chest at that.
> 
> Makes me wonder if I should invent a pen name and slap one of those babies out before the trend drops off. I'm quite sure that those books ain't Shakespeare.


Yes i said Step-brother romance should have it's own sub-genre now. It is crazy how every time I check Amazon there is another step-brother story and some of these romance stories are getting more and more erotic with teenage characters. Where are these teenagers parents when they are getting it on in the house? 
I read 2 of these stories, one i really liked.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Curling, don't forget curling. Its an olympic sport. 

Grass skiing, ski jumping. Don't forget Fingerhakeln. Bavarian finger wrestling. Yes, that is a sport.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Atunah said:


> Curling, don't forget curling. Its an olympic sport.
> 
> Grass skiing, ski jumping. Don't forget Fingerhakeln. Bavarian finger wrestling. Yes, that is a sport.


Yes yes. Well Colleen Masters is doing excellent on the romance charts and her male leads are Lacrosse players, that's a bit different.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

CJArcher said:


> You'll need to explain that for this non-Trekkie.


io9 did an article on this topic! http://io9.com/5238315/6-theories-of-time-travel-in-star-trek


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> And more adult contemporary romances are needed. I am not talking adult as in erotic, I mean non teenagers....
> Get on it woman.


That's the big reason I wrote Limelight with characters in their late 30s. I wanted to write adults my age. I wanted to write people with money and careers, and that self-confidence that comes with life experience. I wanted them to know themselves and not be afraid to show that. And I didn't want to make it erom, as I personally have found it difficult to find adult-age contemporary romances with adults who behave like adults with strong plots beyond explicit sex. I basically wrote the type of romance I want to read


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I have a feeling you'll do quite well with it Rosalind. Romantic suspense is a very popular sub genre.


I've read a couple of Rosalind books. She absolutely needs to be writing cozy romantic suspense cough cough hint hint cough


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I've read a couple of Rosalind books. She absolutely needs to be writing cozy romantic suspense cough cough hint hint cough


Well, it's coming! It's even on preorder. CARRY ME HOME. Cover coming, gah, I hope soon. My hero's pretty delicious. He's an ex-NFL player, because I can't help myself.  I sneaked my sports romance in there all the same...Also western, small-town, and a little cowboy goin' on. And older, established hero & heroine. I believe all those are underserved.

Sadly, he isn't her stepbrother. Shoot. I knew I forgot something.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I think you'll do well with it! All the best.


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## AyrBray (Mar 20, 2015)

I have really good success getting a new book ranked well in FICTION > Historical. I also use this page: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A3O9QROY7AIQG2 to help me discover yeywords.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Friends with partial benefits is a Tennis Romance. But it is rather adult!

http://www.amazon.com/Friends-Partial-Benefits-Book-ebook/dp/B0057XY24K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426961575&sr=8-1&keywords=luke+young


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Evenstar said:


> Friends with partial benefits is a Tennis Romance. But it is rather adult!
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Friends-Partial-Benefits-Book-ebook/dp/B0057XY24K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426961575&sr=8-1&keywords=luke+young


The adult is not what bothers me, its the mother hooking up with her sons friend. Okey dokey. 
Plus it too is not a complete romance. It says book 1, which is always code for me of a serial. So I looked at book 2. So this too is a serial as book 2 is still about the same characters. Sigh. And I don't think any of them are tennis players? Just tennis obsessed as in watching?

Why is this so hard to find a complete romance about a tennis player. Pouts. What's with all these stretched out things put in romance nowadays.

I may have to go through the harlequin catalog. If anyone has done tennis romance, they must have some. Don't care if they older.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Atunah said:


> The adult is not what bothers me, its the mother hooking up with her sons friend. Okey dokey.
> Plus it too is not a complete romance. It says book 1, which is always code for me of a serial. So I looked at book 2. So this too is a serial as book 2 is still about the same characters. Sigh. And I don't think any of them are tennis players? Just tennis obsessed as in watching?
> 
> Why is this so hard to find a complete romance about a tennis player. Pouts. What's with all these stretched out things put in romance nowadays.
> ...


The only books I can find is Jennifer Iacopelli's series which can be read as standalones. They are under New adult and YA, but they have good reviews too. 
http://www.amazon.com/Game-Match-Outer-Tennis-Academy-ebook/dp/B00PKL1FO4/ref=sr_1_6?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1426962510&sr=1-6&keywords=tennis+romance

This book - After wimbledon is chick lit romantic comedy and its about a 28 year old tennis player. http://www.amazon.com/After-Wimbledon-Jennifer-Gilby-Roberts-ebook/dp/B00GZ88WIS/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1426962891&sr=1-1&keywords=After+Wimbledon

You might have to find some adult romances focusing on another sport.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

You're kidding me. A 40+ yo woman and 20 yo guy? Man. No appeal. 
But see, something for everyone in romance! Big tent. Lots of tastes.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Atunah said:


> Which brings me to paranormal romances that are not about vampires, weres and witches. Nor fallen angels. Demons are getting more love. But how about other paranormal thingies and themes.


Look out for dragons. My dragon PNR will be out within the next month, and Viola's is coming soon too I think.

I feel Dragons will be the next hot thing.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

In a romance thread last year, some said that clean/sweet romance is a genre with readers hungry for more. I was excited to hear that because sweet romance has been on my list of things to write.

I've just released the first in a sweet romance series. I'm not sure if it falls under the umbrella of NA or not. The series follows a group of brothers, aged early-twenties to mid-thirties. I've been playing with keywords and whatnot. Most of the also-viewed's appear to be erotic romance stuff which confuses me.

At any rate, this is an interesting thread!


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Rosalind James said:


> You're kidding me. A 40+ yo woman and 20 yo guy? Man. No appeal.
> But see, something for everyone in romance! Big tent. Lots of tastes.


For me its not just the 40 year old with a 20 year old, although that alone is um, eww. But the fact that it is her sons best friend. That is like young man fantasy to get it on with his friends hot mom. But yeah like you said. Big tent.



katetanner said:


> This book - After wimbledon is chick lit and its about a 28 year old tennis player. http://www.amazon.com/After-Wimbledon-Jennifer-Gilby-Roberts-ebook/dp/B00GZ88WIS/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1426962891&sr=1-1&keywords=After+Wimbledon
> 
> You might have to find some adult romances focusing on another sport.


That looks promising, but lots of reviewers call it chick lit and its filed under women fiction. I don't read those 2 genres. I guess the cover does show it being chick lit.

Yeah, I think I have to just find other reads. Not a lack of romances out there thankfully. And its not like my tbr pile isn't big as the Alps already.

But for inspiration for a tennis player romance I have this. Mr Fabio Fognini.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Stacy Claflin said:


> In a romance thread last year, some said that clean/sweet romance is a genre with readers hungry for more. I was excited to hear that because sweet romance has been on my list of things to write.
> 
> I've just released the first in a sweet romance series. I'm not sure if it falls under the umbrella of NA or not. The series follows a group of brothers, aged early-twenties to mid-thirties. I've been playing with keywords and whatnot. Most of the also-viewed's appear to be erotic romance stuff which confuses me.
> 
> At any rate, this is an interesting thread!


New Adult is hard to pin down. Honestly, I'm not happy that Amazon threw it under romance because it feels like now we're supposed to always make sure we have HEA, but that wasn't how it was when the genre was conceived. In my mind, a book would never be both Sweet Romance and New Adult, but the genre has evolved. Some authors and readers treat New Adult as though it's just romance featuring college-aged characters. Other people treat it as though it's erotic romance with college-aged characters. Some others treat it as though it's edgy love stories with college-aged characters.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

Jenny Schwartz said:


> I've been waiting for gothic to come back for years. I think some of it's hiding under steampunk. I'll be interested what other forms it takes. That whole heroine-in-peril that's not romantic suspense


I'm with you on this. I have always loved Gothics and wish they would come back. I'd like steampunk better if it didn't have so many steamier elements (I know there are some "sweeter" ones, but they are hard to find). I really wish there were more of the old "Victoria Holt" or "Virginia Coffman" type books out there.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Amy Corwin said:


> I'm with you on this. I have always loved Gothics and wish they would come back. I'd like steampunk better if it didn't have so many steamier elements (I know there are some "sweeter" ones, but they are hard to find). I really wish there were more of the old "Victoria Holt" or "Virginia Coffman" type books out there.


Oh my gosh, yes! _The Road to Paradise Island_ is one of my all-time favorites.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

What sorts of SF romance do people want? 

Sidenote: I have always thought I'd like sfr, since I like SF and I like romance. However, I have never read a SFR that I liked. The R either sucks, or the SF sucks. Or, even worse, aliens raping the heroine...oh, sorry! Alpha-maling the heroine. I always get those two things confused. Surely there are good SFR out there - strong SF, strong R.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Oddly enough, I'm having a little go at clean, mildly gothic stuff. I am convinced there's a market for cleaner books.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Over a year ago, Harlequin started a new line called Shivers. Gothics which many are under intrigue.  I think I have a box set that they released then as a introduction at the time. I haven't read it yet though. My tbr pile is just huge.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> What sorts of SF romance do people want?
> 
> Sidenote: I have always thought I'd like sfr, since I like SF and I like romance. However, I have never read a SFR that I liked. The R either sucks, or the SF sucks. Or, even worse, aliens raping the heroine...oh, sorry! Alpha-maling the heroine. I always get those two things confused. Surely there are good SFR out there - strong SF, strong R.


ALthough I don't mind the candy like alien abducted me to have sex erotic sci fi romances a la Dohner, I do like other stuff overall.
I really enjoyed this one. Heroine is a airline pilot when things go really really wrong during a routine flight. 


This one is also one I really liked, especially the world building. Ignore the horrible cover, author was previously published and that is now self pubbed I think. Yikes


There is also this I read recently I enjoyed.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

The snark is strong in this thread. I love it.


Krista D. Ball said:


> Or, even worse, aliens raping the heroine...oh, sorry! Alpha-maling the heroine. I always get those two things confused.


I think it must be daunting to try new stuff, I mean, not knowing whether the audience is there (those tricky badminton romances!!), and how you'll find them. I've been trying to write some M/F under a new pen name, and it's really scary putting it out there having no idea if I'll find my audience.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Briteka said:


> New Adult is hard to pin down. Honestly, I'm not happy that Amazon threw it under romance because it feels like now we're supposed to always make sure we have HEA, but that wasn't how it was when the genre was conceived. In my mind, a book would never be both Sweet Romance and New Adult, but the genre has evolved. Some authors and readers treat New Adult as though it's just romance featuring college-aged characters. Other people treat it as though it's erotic romance with college-aged characters. Some others treat it as though it's edgy love stories with college-aged characters.


That's because NA isn't a genre, it's an age category. It just happens to be a very popular one in romance/PNR so it got it's own little shelf in the Amazon category list. I'm rather surprised they don't have one for it in fantasy or science fiction.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Atunah said:


> For me its not just the 40 year old with a 20 year old, although that alone is um, eww. But the fact that it is her sons best friend. That is like young man fantasy to get it on with his friends hot mom. But yeah like you said. Big tent.
> That looks promising, but lots of reviewers call it chick lit and its filed under women fiction. I don't read those 2 genres. I guess the cover does show it being chick lit.
> 
> Yeah, I think I have to just find other reads. Not a lack of romances out there thankfully. And its not like my tbr pile isn't big as the Alps already.
> ...


Oh don't get me started on Fabio Fogini, he is one hot fiery Italian. Yeah a story with an adult tennis player like Fabio with an adult leading woman who is not a virgin, but is a woman of the world who knows what she wants. Might be a nice book. Maybe a romantic suspense novel with no cliffhanger, a true standalone.

Yeah the older woman hooking up with her sons friend creeps me out, sorry.


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## Annabel Chant (Feb 24, 2015)

> I've just released the first in a sweet romance series. I'm not sure if it falls under the umbrella of NA or not. The series follows a group of brothers, aged early-twenties to mid-thirties. I've been playing with keywords and whatnot. Most of the also-viewed's appear to be erotic romance stuff which confuses me.


There's a pre-made on one of the sites with your title, written in a similar font. I was wondering if it was a cover you'd rejected (you know how some designers do several mock-ups, then sell the rejected ones as pre-mades). I can't remember what site it was on though, now, and your cover is far superior 

Also, I was wondering about why people that enjoy romance, don't read chick-lit, as there seems to be a lot of cross-over. I get the whole designer labels (yawn) thing that some find intensely irritating, but I was just wondering how it is perceived, and why it is given a wide berth by some


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Stacy Claflin said:


> In a romance thread last year, some said that clean/sweet romance is a genre with readers hungry for more. I was excited to hear that because sweet romance has been on my list of things to write.
> 
> I've just released the first in a sweet romance series. I'm not sure if it falls under the umbrella of NA or not. The series follows a group of brothers, aged early-twenties to mid-thirties. I've been playing with keywords and whatnot. Most of the also-viewed's appear to be erotic romance stuff which confuses me.
> 
> At any rate, this is an interesting thread!


Most NA books today are quite steamy. I don't really see clean romance in NA. There's lots of step-brother's, boxers or mma fighters and bad boys in there right now.

There is a readership for every type of romance. Clean romance sells well, you just have to find the readers. Most of the blogs I visit, promote NA or erotic romance.

There seems to be a very thin line between some of these genres. I think some writers genuinely misplace their books in the wrong sub-genres.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Annabel Chant said:


> Also, I was wondering about why people that enjoy romance, don't read chick-lit, as there seems to be a lot of cross-over. I get the whole designer labels (yawn) thing that some find intensely irritating, but I was just wondering how it is perceived, and why it is given a wide berth by some


I am sure some read romance and chick lit. Us romance readers often read other genres too. I love historical mystery, urban fantasy for example. I just don't like chick lit. Its just not a genre I enjoy. For me its not really as much a cross over. The overall main story of the genres are different. The designer label thing sure is part of that, but its more also just the basics of the genre. I don't read women fiction either. Just not my thing either. Not sure how to explain it well though. Its just different genres.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2015)

Another steampunk/romance writer checking in  

I don't see much in the way of gothic in the most popular, but the books doing well in steampunk tend to fall into one of 2 camps. They either have a strong romantic element (like Bec McMasters, Gail Carriger) or they are more external plot focused and romance is at most a minor subplot. It will be interesting to see if there is an upswing in the popularity of steampunk with Jim Butcher's new series, although I suspect it will bring more readers in who aren't so keen on a higher romance content.

I have noticed some steampunk readers *loathe* the romance element and will practically foam at the mouth if they accidentally pick it up. It's a category that I believe could benefit from being broken down further into steampunk>romance and maybe steampunk>action & adventure.

As a writer, I am thinking of stepping out of steampunk and going either straight Regency romance (a hugely underrated category in my opinion with hungry readers) or adding a steampunk twist to magical realism or dark fantasy.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

katetanner said:


> Most NA books today are quite steamy. I don't really see clean romance in NA. There's lots of step-brother's, boxers or mma fighters and bad boys in there right now.
> 
> There is a readership for every type of romance. Clean romance sells well, you just have to find the readers. Most of the blogs I visit, promote NA or erotic romance.
> 
> There seems to be a very thin line between some of these genres. I think some writers genuinely misplace their books in the wrong sub-genres.


Yeah, I've noticed that bloggers don't like my stuff. Not enough sex or angst, no tortured bad boys, and that's what's big in blog-world right now.
I'm not "sweet" or "clean," but no sex until halfway through and it's not a big part of the plot, and most indie books now seem to get sexy really fast.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks for the recommendations, Atunah. I'll download some samples.


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## Annabel Chant (Feb 24, 2015)

> I am sure some read romance and chick lit. Us romance readers often read other genres too. I love historical mystery, urban fantasy for example. I just don't like chick lit. Its just not a genre I enjoy. For me its not really as much a cross over. The overall main story of the genres are different. The designer label thing sure is part of that, but its more also just the basics of the genre. I don't read women fiction either. Just not my thing either. Not sure how to explain it well though. Its just different genres.


Thanks and I didn't mean to imply that NO romance readers read chick-lit. It's just that, from the chick-lit I have read (which actually hasn't had much designer-related stuff in it), it seems to have a strong romance thread in it, so I wondered if there was much cross-over with readers. It does seem to be a popular genre, at least for some authors.

Also, could some of the reason certain types of romance/erotica end up in Contemporary Romance be to do with key words, rather than actually being put in there by category? Probably not, I realise, but it was just a thought that crossed my mind


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Multicultural/Interracial Romance is a fairly small subgenre that I also write in sometimes. Unfortunately, it's been absolutely flooded with misplaced erotica recently; also lots of paranormal heavily sexed-up erom and BDSM erom, so it's harder to get a chart spot there now.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> Multicultural/Interracial Romance is a fairly small subgenre that I also write in sometimes. Unfortunately, it's been absolutely flooded with misplaced erotica recently; also lots of paranormal heavily sexed-up erom and BDSM erom, so it's harder to get a chart spot there now.


Yeah, I found that with Limelight, too (Interracial). It has a less-sexy cover, so it looks soooooo out of place in IR cats right now.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

HSh said:


> The snark is strong in this thread. I love it.
> I think it must be daunting to try new stuff, I mean, not knowing whether the audience is there (those tricky badminton romances!!), and how you'll find them. I've been trying to write some M/F under a new pen name, and it's really scary putting it out there having no idea if I'll find my audience.


Limelight is a poor performing book for me. I'd say 95% of my sales are people telling other people to read it. Which is good, though since so few people have read it, it's going to take a long time for word to get out LOL


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> Yeah, I've noticed that bloggers don't like my stuff. Not enough sex or angst, no tortured bad boys, and that's what's big in blog-world right now.
> I'm not "sweet" or "clean," but no sex until halfway through and it's not a big part of the plot, and most indie books now seem to get sexy really fast.


That is so true. Sex in the first chapter and some books start with sexual dialogue. Characters have one night stands in a lot of these stories. Sometimes the titles give it away, 'one night with .....'. 
Yes I would say your books are a little too clean, too tame for those bloggers Rosalind.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Limelight is a poor performing book for me. I'd say 95% of my sales are people telling other people to read it. Which is good, though since so few people have read it, it's going to take a long time for word to get out LOL


Ah man, sorry its not performing well. Its really good. But like I said earlier, the categories are packed with stuff that don't really belong and also with lots of NA and step brothers and billionaires and alpha's and such things. So its hard to find something right now in contempo if you are looking for other stuff. There are readers looking for things like Limelight. Sometimes a book or authors gets word of mouth on some forum like the amazon forums, or it gets picked up by dear author and such. Although I haven't been much in tune with their review and picks much anymore either.

I guess its like the needle in a haystack. You are the needle in a stack of stepbrothers.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Atunah said:


> You are the needle in a stack of stepbrothers.


By this time next week someone will have written that.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

SevenDays said:


> By this time next week someone will have written that.


Put some kilts on them and you got something.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Ah man, sorry its not performing well. Its really good. But like I said earlier, the categories are packed with stuff that don't really belong and also with lots of NA and step brothers and billionaires and alpha's and such things. So its hard to find something right now in contempo if you are looking for other stuff. There are readers looking for things like Limelight. Sometimes a book or authors gets word of mouth on some forum like the amazon forums, or it gets picked up by dear author and such. Although I haven't been much in tune with their review and picks much anymore either.
> 
> I guess its like the needle in a haystack. You are the needle in a stack of stepbrothers.


I'm glad you enjoyed it! It was a great writing experience for me. Not killing anyone in a book was such a unique experience  I don't write a lot of romance, so it's not a huge deal if it doesn't sell. I enjoy writing it, but I love other genres more. There's just too much to write and not enough me doing the writing!

I might need to play around with the keyword stuff. See if there are other small subgenres that the book might fit under better.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Put some kilts on them and you got something.


lol


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

But if we're talking about underserved markets, I know there's a definite market for more traditional books (longer time frame, hero not so tortured, adults, etc.) that have steamy sex but not so much of it. Many readers enjoy the steamy sex, but don't want to read a whole book about sex, or one where the relationship starts with sex and then is instalove and obsession. (Which is a very NA thing; also, I think, a paranormal erom thing.)

So sort of a tradpub book but with a little more sex. I wrote that because it's what I enjoy myself (and hard to find). I do think there's a demand.


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## JKata (Dec 9, 2014)

I concur with those who wish Gothic Romance would come back. I'm particularly hungry for the classic historical gothic with the big, creepy house, strange servants, and mysterious hero set usually in the Victorian Era.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Justice Joy said:


> I concur with those who wish Gothic Romance would come back. I'm particularly hungry for the classic historical gothic with the big, creepy house, strange servants, and mysterious hero set usually in the Victorian Era.


As I said before, I am working on a clone to do all of my romance ideas, since I need to concentrate on my epic fantasy and SF novels. As soon as the clone is up and running, I will announce it.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> But if we're talking about underserved markets, I know there's a definite market for more traditional books (longer time frame, hero not so tortured, adults, etc.) that have steamy sex but not so much of it. Many readers enjoy the steamy sex, but don't want to read a whole book about sex, or one where the relationship starts with sex and then is instalove and obsession. (Which is a very NA thing; also, I think, a paranormal erom thing.)
> 
> So sort of a tradpub book but with a little more sex. I wrote that because it's what I enjoy myself (and hard to find). I do think there's a demand.


That's where I'd put my 2 romance books. Perhaps we need a sub-sub genre called this: The middle ground.


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## JKata (Dec 9, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> As I said before, I am working on a clone to do all of my romance ideas, since I need to concentrate on my epic fantasy and SF novels. As soon as the clone is up and running, I will announce it.


Looking forward to your announcement, Krista.  And thanks, btw, for writing What Kings Ate and Wizards Drunk and Hustlers, Harlots, and Heroes. I'm in the midst of reading the latter. Very helpful to a historical romance author like me.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Justice Joy said:


> And thanks, btw, for writing What Kings Ate and Wizards Drunk and Hustlers, Harlots, and Heroes. I'm in the midst of reading the latter. Very helpful to a historical romance author like me.


Oh thank you! That's so sweet. I really hope they give people things to think about. They aren't meant to make people's plotting and ideas more different, but rather to give more ideas and more flavor.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> io9 did an article on this topic! http://io9.com/5238315/6-theories-of-time-travel-in-star-trek


That article is brilliant! 

As far as the op:

I know of a few people who are doing well with Christian Themed/Chaste romance. Most of them set in the old west or Victorian periods. From what I hear it's a picky audience - but not saturated yet.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Vicky Foxx said:


> I know of a few people who are doing well with Christian Themed/Chaste romance. Most of them set in the old west or Victorian periods. From what I hear it's a picky audience - but not saturated yet.


That's one of the frustrating things, too. I get why they combined the Christian-chaste stuff - I really, really do - but I just don't want to read a Christian-morals book. But finding that middle ground between the Christian "we're all waiting until we're married" and four graphic sex scenes can be so difficult.

We really need a "middle of the road" list LOL


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> That's one of the frustrating things, too. I get why they combined the Christian-chaste stuff - I really, really do - but I just don't want to read a Christian-morals book. But finding that middle ground between the Christian "we're all waiting until we're married" and four graphic sex scenes can be so difficult.
> 
> We really need a "middle of the road" list LOL


How about waiting till they're married and THEN having four graphic sex scenes? No?

 Sorry, couldn't help myself.

This is a very interesting discussion, and I'm reading with interest. As someone who's never been interested in sports, now I look at the sports-themed romances, and think, "My goodness, one more thing to learn about for writing romance!"


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Stacy Claflin said:


> In a romance thread last year, some said that clean/sweet romance is a genre with readers hungry for more. I was excited to hear that because sweet romance has been on my list of things to write.


There is definitely a market for clean. Some of mine are clean (not intentional, just not feasible to put naught stuff in a YA historical). I've also noticed a "clean romance" subcategory somewhere. I think it was Google Play - but only for adding books, not when searching.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

CJArcher said:


> There is definitely a market for clean.


This is good. I have nothing against sex in books, but I tried writing a sex scene once and it came out sounding really frigid. Thinking on, perhaps it was a mistake to have them call each other Sir and Madam.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Justice Joy said:


> I concur with those who wish Gothic Romance would come back. I'm particularly hungry for the classic historical gothic with the big, creepy house, strange servants, and mysterious hero set usually in the Victorian Era.


Check out THE WRONG GIRL in my siggie. It ticks all those boxes.

Has anyone noticed the popularity of what I'd label as YA fantasy with a romantic subplot on Amazon lately? The Ticker, some mermaid book etc - I know they're Amazon imprint books, but they shot up to #1. I wonder if this bodes well for historical paranormal, which I think is hugely underserved. An agent I had a few years ago told me historical paranormal would not sell (hence why she's no longer my agent). She was probably correct back then, but I wonder if this is changing. As a writer of HPNR, I hope so!


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## JKata (Dec 9, 2014)

CJArcher said:


> Check out THE WRONG GIRL in my siggie. It ticks all those boxes.


It's already on my TBR pile, CJ!  But I plan to finish your Emily Chambers Spirit Medium trilogy first. I'm already done with the first book (love the Victorian details and atmosphere!) and I'm on to the next book. Very curious as to how things will turn out for Emily.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

CJArcher said:


> I wonder if this bodes well for historical paranormal, which I think is hugely underserved. An agent I had a few years ago told me historical paranormal would not sell (hence why she's no longer my agent). She was probably correct back then, but I wonder if this is changing. As a writer of HPNR, I hope so!


I hope so! I don't write it but I do enjoy it very much. A favorite, a few years ago, was the Gardella Vampire Hunters series by Colleen Gleason. The first is free at the moment, I just noticed.

http://www.amazon.com/Rest-Falls-Gardella-Vampire-Hunters-ebook/dp/B00NMVLLMA


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## Jenny Schwartz (Mar 4, 2011)

CJ - thank you! Just added "clean" to the keywords of my latest release. I knew there was a comment a reviewer had made on an earlier similar story, but I couldn't remember the word! Clean romance. I think that could be a new category - no sex, no swearing, etc, but no preaching?


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Justice Joy said:


> It's already on my TBR pile, CJ!  But I plan to finish your Emily Chambers Spirit Medium trilogy first. I'm already done with the first book (love the Victorian details and atmosphere!) and I'm on to the next book. Very curious as to how things will turn out for Emily.


LOL. Awesome! Thanks for picking them up.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Jenny Schwartz said:


> I think that could be a new category - no sex, no swearing, etc, but no preaching?


Are you listening, Amazon? A clean subcat under Romance would be awesome (for those that aren't Inspy).


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

I would love to see more traditional Gothic Romance come back as well. I don't think I could write one very well but I liked reading them when I was young.


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## Miss Bee (Sep 8, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> One reason I'm writing more romantic suspense. Much smaller genre with relatively few beataelling authors, and lots of readers who seem to enjoy a more complicated story.


I was wondering if there was a market for romantic suspense. I have an idea for a series that is romantic suspense, but I wasn't sure if there were readers looking for that kind of thing and whether it should be marketed under romance, mystery, or both.


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

From discussions I was reading last Christmas, there's definitely an underserved market for lesbian tennis romance out there.

Put it at #300 on my to-do list.

I am also clamoring for more gothics. I would prefer them to be about ladies, but I could accept a Rochester, or an oversensitive Victor Frankenstein type.


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## suspensefulCJ (Nov 8, 2013)

Miss Bee said:


> I was wondering if there was a market for romantic suspense. I have an idea for a series that is romantic suspense, but I wasn't sure if there were readers looking for that kind of thing and whether it should be marketed under romance, mystery, or both.


I definitely think there is a market for it. My RS series far, far, far outsells my paranormal/fantasy romance series. I classify it under romance/suspense and mystery/thriller. I use keywords to get into other subgenres like psychological thriller, etc. I am toying with a romantic suspense/paranormal trilogy to see how much of a crossover there would be.


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

Amy Corwin said:


> I'm with you on this. I have always loved Gothics and wish they would come back. I'd like steampunk better if it didn't have so many steamier elements (I know there are some "sweeter" ones, but they are hard to find). I really wish there were more of the old "Victoria Holt" or "Virginia Coffman" type books out there.


I like Barbara Michaels. I've been reading her books lately.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> This is good. I have nothing against sex in books, but I tried writing a sex scene once and it came out sounding really frigid. Thinking on, perhaps it was a mistake to have them call each other Sir and Madam.


Hee Ha ha 

I can't write sex scenes either, not under this name anyway because people I know might read them and that idea makes me squirm.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Jenny Schwartz said:


> CJ - thank you! Just added "clean" to the keywords of my latest release. I knew there was a comment a reviewer had made on an earlier similar story, but I couldn't remember the word! Clean romance. I think that could be a new category - no sex, no swearing, etc, but no preaching?


Unfortunately, the keyword 'clean' lands your book in the inspirational category.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

I have a Gothic, but cannot figure out for the life of me how to promote it right. (My mother would have loved it, but she'd gone, alas). It is not a crowded subgenre.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Time travel gives me the biggest headache. I start asking myself... wait... how does that actually work... but... but the paradox!!!!!!!!!!!


Do not start thinking about the paradox. It's like this happened, but it wouldn't have happened if someone hadn't went back in time and messed something up, but they wouldn't have went back in time if it hadn't happened.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I find this all to be so puzzling. Do you write what the stuff that's popular or search out the underserved markets? If it were easy to figure this out, we'd all be millionaires.

I've been wondering what beloved tropes are hardest to find. I have not seen much friends to lovers, so I've been thinking about pursuing that. But then again, maybe it's just out, not cool anymore.

So much of the popular stuff now seems to be a hero who treats the heroine like crap. And who is creepily obsessed with her.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I write lots of friends to lovers, Crystal. I don't know if it's cool these days or not, but readers seem to enjoy it. 

And I laughed at your last paragraph. Yep. Don't get it. Doesn't spell r-o-m-a-n-c-e to me, but clearly I'm in the minority.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Annabel Chant said:


> There's a pre-made on one of the sites with your title, written in a similar font. I was wondering if it was a cover you'd rejected (you know how some designers do several mock-ups, then sell the rejected ones as pre-mades). I can't remember what site it was on though, now, and your cover is far superior


I made this cover, so I'd be curious to see the premade being sold if you end up remembering where that was. Thanks for the heads up!


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## steffmetal (May 8, 2014)

Does anyone have any good recommendations for gothic romances, or historical paranormal? I'm just about to complete my first historical paranormal series for publication - I want to do a ton more in this style but would love to read what's done well.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

steffmetal said:


> Does anyone have any good recommendations for gothic romances, or historical paranormal? I'm just about to complete my first historical paranormal series for publication - I want to do a ton more in this style but would love to read what's done well.


For historical paranormal, Colleen Gleason's _The Rest Falls Away_.

http://www.amazon.com/Rest-Falls-Gardella-Vampire-Hunters-ebook/dp/B00NMVLLMA

It's free at the moment (could be permafree, I'm not sure). The series was trade-published a few years ago, but I'm guessing Colleen got her rights back.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I write lots of friends to lovers, Crystal. I don't know if it's cool these days or not, but readers seem to enjoy it.
> 
> And I laughed at your last paragraph. Yep. Don't get it. Doesn't spell r-o-m-a-n-c-e to me, but clearly I'm in the minority.


I like angsty stuff, so I mostly read NA, but it seems like in every other book the guy is just a jerk. And not a sexy Han Solo kind of jerk. Just a jerk.

I feel like there must be an audience for steamy, angsty NA where the hero respects the heroine, even if he's a little bit of a jerk. But that's not exactly something you can market.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Interesting thread.

Someone asked about gothic romance recommendations. My all time favorite: Madeline Brent's TREGARON'S DAUGHTER. Just checked it out on Amazon and it's oop and not available as an ebook.  I have a copy of the original, but it's packed away. Now I really want to re-read it....for maybe the 20th time.  Had lots of other favorites, but that was top of the stack.

I published a gothic some years ago....rather, it started out gothic but I became so enthralled by secondary characters and what happened that it morphed into a dark historical psychological thriller murder mystery. I liked writing it, but it didn't sell well because it wasn't what it was marketed as (entirely my fault....some stories just head off in different directions, and I really didn't appreciate just how different this one had become until much, much later.  The story still has power for me, though.).


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> I like angsty stuff, so I mostly read NA, but it seems like in every other book the guy is just a jerk. And not a sexy Han Solo kind of jerk. Just a jerk.
> 
> I feel like there must be an audience for steamy, angsty NA where the hero respects the heroine, even if he's a little bit of a jerk. But that's not exactly something you can market.


thats why I write about grown ups. My readers tend to be a bit older, I think. Once you're over 30, most women kinda know that dangerous brooding bad boys are usually just...a-holes, or worse. There's a big audience in non-NA for great guys who respect women.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I got out of my way to find the NA that doesn't have stalker alphole hero like Travis from Beautiful Disaster for example. When I started reading NA romance, my first was "Easy".  I read that in July 2012. I think at the time it was self published and been picked up. I then read "Slammed". Slammed had no sex it in at all and Easy very little. Neither had alphole heroes. So that is what NA romance was to me. Then things changed. I read Beautiful Disaster, The Edge of Never ( which was blech to me) and a few others and started to dislike the "sub genre" as I couldn't find what I liked. 

Now I find the good ones from time to time from other readers and romance reader blogs. 
I found Sarina Bowen and "The year we fell down" which was awesome, then there was Courtney Milan's "Trade me". 
I just now finished another great one "The Deal" by Elle Kennedy. What I find interesting that these authors seem to mark on the book page that it is a standalone in series, not serial, that it has a HEA. Find it odd that this has to be stated now considering we are talking about romance now. No HEA, its not romance. But that is because so much is being put into it that is not the correct genre. 

So I still find the good NA romances, but I have to go by the author notes about series and other readers to know upfront its not the usual Travis like lets beat everyone that looks at the heroine to a pulp. That book made me seethe.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Let alone the ones who kidnap and rape the heroine. Shaking my head. Do not get it.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Rosalind James said:


> Let alone the ones who kidnap and rape the heroine. Shaking my head. Do not get it.


For some reason I can take a lot more, how to say it, bad behaviour from hero when I read historical romance. I love the old ones and the new ones. But I can't take the same in contemporary stories. Its just very different for me. I have no explanation for it other than because contempo is much more reality, the now, historicals like PNR and other romance subgenres are much more an adventure, further away from reality. Not saying I like the alpholes to the extreme in HR, I just tolerate more in that sub genres. But what those HR do well is the redemption, after all the ish they go through, in the end there must be a grovel, a redemption. A believable one. I always say that the most important thing in any romance is the HEA must be believable. Its where many books go wrong for me. There can be suffering, there can even be cruelness from the hero, or heroine, usually hero, there can be oh so wrong actions. But the journey to the HEA, the believable tearing down of his heart and soul when he realizes he cannot do without her, that is the magical moment for me.

I lurve me the real rakes in HR for example, the one that is not just a fake rake, but actually has some really bad actions. Those journeys are some of my favorites. Those can be done also in contempo. Anne Stuart is the master of creating heroes that are just on the edge of no redeemable quality. Yet she somehow manages to make the stories believable. She is about on the extreme edge of bad for heroes. I think they call them gamma heroes?

But I just find that in those NA with alpholes its that element that is lacking. The believabilty. I did not believe in the HFN. There wasn't any growth, no consequences, no internal pain to work through. I find this lacking in many of the newer type contempo romance and NA romance with a "bad boy" hero. Its refreshing ironically to go back to back list titles from 15- 20 years back and find that element done so well, in HR and CR.

But I am also glad that contempo romance writers like Rosalind are continuing to write adult contempo romance with grown up characters. Krista Ball just had one out recently I really liked and the h/H are in their late 30's with both on a level field as far as wealth.

Write what you love and there are readers out there for the stuff that isn't currently just floating in the top 100 on Amazon bestseller. Be aware that much of that is not even romance.

Don't try to chase down popular tropes. Most of us romance readers have many many tropes we like, not just one or two. They are like a bowl of M&M's for most of us. We might discard a few here and there we just don't want to read, but we love many of them tropes. Browse the amazon romance forum for the crazy amount of tropes asked about, talked about, hated on, loved on. It even amazes me as a long time romance reader all the stuff out there. 

Love the genre and respect its readers.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Atunah said:


> I just now finished another great one "The Deal" by Elle Kennedy. What I find interesting that these authors seem to mark on the book page that it is a standalone in series, not serial, that it has a HEA. Find it odd that this has to be stated now considering we are talking about romance now. No HEA, its not romance. But that is because so much is being put into it that is not the correct genre.


Interesting. I was always over the impression that romance must have HEA, but I hear from a lot of writers now that they write serials or trilogies with cliffhangers and that they cliffhangers are really great for sales. Yet another thing to be torn about!


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## JKata (Dec 9, 2014)

Atunah said:


> For some reason I can take a lot more, how to say it, bad behaviour from hero when I read historical romance. I love the old ones and the new ones. But I can't take the same in contemporary stories. Its just very different for me. I have no explanation for it other than because contempo is much more reality, the now, historicals like PNR and other romance subgenres are much more an adventure, further away from reality.


I do tolerate a little bit more arrogance and alpha-ness in historical romance, but perhaps it's because it was more realistic for them to act that way 200 hundred years ago. Men who were thought to treat women well back in the day would be considered patronizing and condescending now. Men who rape and beat women, even two hundred years ago, still weren't considered awesome though, but society turned a blind eye to the abuse more often than not. Today, however, with all the sensitivity training, education, advances in women's rights, it's just hard to admire a man who will treat a woman shabbily.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> Let alone the ones who kidnap and rape the heroine. Shaking my head. Do not get it.


I do wonder if the two choices are: write a semi-abusive hero in NA or write older/more mature characters. (Not sure how YA romance fits into this).

I have been considering starting a second pen name for a more breezy, comedic series. I do miss writing romantic comedies (my first, well, my second love), but I am not at all mature, so I'm not so sure about the mature part


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> Let alone the ones who kidnap and rape the heroine. Shaking my head. Do not get it.


I've never understood it, either, but Kathleen Woodiwiss launched the romance revolution with a book that did exactly this...by the second chapter, if I remember correctly. (It couldn't have been any later than that, because that's where I quit reading.) Flame and the Flower? I think that was the title. Before that, romance was gothics or Harlequin Romance and Presents and not much else.

Of course, I'm just relating the history I've been told. I'm certainly not anywhere near old enough to actually _remember _any of that!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Yep. Read those books when I was 15 and I liked them. Cannot imagine that now. That's what I mean. I think as we get older, it's harder to suspend what we know about life, perhaps, and buy that man as a hero. The guy rapes her. And beats her. In all those KW novels. The progenitor of Captive in the Dark et al. Now, it all makes me sick. I don't want to read it, and I sure as heck couldn't write it. I dunno. I have a very tough time with rape from a hero. But it still sells boatloads. Who knows.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I still love The Flame and the Flower today. I just do. I know what it is and I take it as that. But I am one of those romance readers that goes to the edges that some don't like to go. As long as it has a HEA/HFN and is actually romance that is. I don't even count out cheating automatically. It depends on the book and the author.



Crystal_ said:


> Interesting. I was always over the impression that romance must have HEA, but I hear from a lot of writers now that they write serials or trilogies with cliffhangers and that they cliffhangers are really great for sales. Yet another thing to be torn about!


Yes, romance must have a HEA or HFN. Otherwise its not genre romance. Its why I don't consider a part of a serial a romance. Or cliffhangers with no resolve. I don't know of any long time romance readers that considers those romance. When they read them they read them for what they are, which is not romance. I read urban fantasy too among other genres and I don't expect a HFN there. Its a different genre. But romance, it is what it is. 
Again, other romance readers on sites like goodreads are a big help in sifting out actual romance from that that is not.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Atunah said:


> Yes, romance must have a HEA or HFN. Otherwise its not genre romance. Its why I don't consider a part of a serial a romance. Or cliffhangers with no resolve. I don't know of any long time romance readers that considers those romance. When they read them they read them for what they are, which is not romance. I read urban fantasy too among other genres and I don't expect a HFN there. Its a different genre. But romance, it is what it is.
> Again, other romance readers on sites like goodreads are a big help in sifting out actual romance from that that is not.


I'm not sure. It seems like it's more and more acceptable for the HEA to come at the end of the story. I see it everywhere. Viewed as a whole, the series is a romance, but each book is an installment in it.

I mean, I don't want to bring up 50SoG (I've never even read it), but I'm pretty sure most people consider it romance. Well, the people who don't think it's porn.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

[quote author=Crystal_lin k=topic=2113 03.msg29479 68#msg294. 7968 date=1427086442]
I'm not sure. It seems like it's more and more acceptable for the HEA to come at the end of the story. I see it everywhere. Viewed as a whole, the series is a romance, but each book is an installment in it.

I mean, I don't want to bring up 50SoG (I've never even read it), but I'm pretty sure most people consider it romance. Well, the people who don't think it's porn.
[/quote]

Yes. There are plenty of romances where the hea comes after several books. In fact, that's the trend. Some readers hate it. Others like it. But just because someone hates it doesn't give that person the right, imho, to declare it not a romance. If there was no hea, ever, then, yes, it's not a romance. But if the hea eventually comes, then it's a serial romance. To say otherwise would be effectively dismissing plenty of today's romances, including fifty shades and pretty much all serial romances, which, like it or not, are the thing nowadays. And, yes, even Goodreads considers Fifty Shades a romance...it was a finalist over there for "Best Romance." If it were not considered a romance, it would be a finalist for "Best some category of book but it sure ain't a romance".


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Crystal_ said:


> I'm not sure. It seems like it's more and more acceptable for the HEA to come at the end of the story. I see it everywhere. Viewed as a whole, the series is a romance, but each book is an installment in it.
> 
> I mean, I don't want to bring up 50SoG (I've never even read it), but I'm pretty sure most people consider it romance. Well, the people who don't think it's porn.


Fifty shades of grey is a romance (its a soft erotic romance), it's certainly not porn or straight erotica. It's not even that erotic, that's why i say soft. I said on another thread, i've read much more steamier books in the NA genre. The author has said it's a romance with some kinky sex. 
The die hard 50 Shades fans love the romantic aspect of the book. They love Christian Grey, they are not so focused on the BDSM.

The media focuses on the kinky aspects of the book because it makes it more interesting to write about sex shops and an increase in sales of sex toys following the 50 shades phenomenon. The reporter can sit there and giggle like a silly virginal school girl and pretend she's never seen a sex toy before or never watched porn on the internet or a DVD. It's like E.L. James invented sex toys or BDSM.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

This is a great thread. I am publishing the first book of my series within a couple of months, and it's a fairy tale retell/romance/suspense serial that will not have the HEA until Book 3. I have been beating my head against the Amazon categories trying to figure out where it lands. There's a fantasy/fairy tale retell/romantic category - but I am intrigued about listing it in some sort of suspense category.  I'm writing it because it's my favorite one of two fairy tales of all time.  It's been a bitch to keep to the idea of the original tale, and still develop it in the way I wanted to see it developed when I read it.

Then I have a series that would be contemp/urban fantasy - and the MCs are older, more aware, and not willing to put up with crap.  My fairy tale series would be NA from an age standpoint, maybe even YA as I work through the characters that will have their own story.

This is interesting - I grew up reading Barbara Cartland, and except for the heroine's ridiculous pauses, I loved her books. Then I moved to Harlequins, and the Silhouette series. I read what is romance now, and there's way too much sex way too soon. It's also far too descriptive. For me, anyway. I tend to write the build up, and then have the couple wake up the next morning. I don't know if that's good or bad - but I've only written one sex scene, and it remains one of the most difficult scenes I've written, because it read stilted and forced. I guess I just like leaving things to imagination.

I'm also a big fan of time travel. For a while, there were only Scottish time travelers, but that's expanded some.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

It does seem like the NA charts are full of these alpha jerks who sleep around and disrespect most of the female population until they meet that one girl who changes them and by the end you've got a HEA. There is usually quite graphic sex scenes or lots of dirty talk in these books. 

There are a few odd books that appear every so often that are a little different and some do OK. I don't write abusive alpha males who sleep around, maybe that's why I don't sell as many books as some of the authors I talk to. 

I think Colleen Hoover is one of the most popular authors who doesn't write the typical dirty talking alpha male and she doesn't have graphic sex scenes in her books. 

I speak to new writers all the time who just want to make some money and my advice would be to write something similar to what is currently in the charts. If that's another step-brother romance or MMA fighter romance then ok, writers have to pay the bills and sometimes you have to jump on the bangwagon and not take too many risks.

I love what authors like Rosalind James has done and tried something different, mature men, hunky rugby players who are not a holes, setting her books in a country that a lot of people might not know about. 
Tracey Garvis Graves is another author who wrote something a little different and it paid off big time.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> And not a sexy Han Solo kind of jerk.


Han Solo is a jerk?


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

Nic said:


> Han Solo is a jerk?


Scoundrel, not jerk! He's a scoundrel!!!


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> Let alone the ones who kidnap and rape the heroine. Shaking my head. Do not get it.


They are simply the same old rape fantasies that used to be the proverbial _bodice rippers_ of yore. A lot of readers like them. I don't think there's anything bad about liking rape fantasies, but I agree that unfortunately they appear to have taken whole genres. And they still in our day and age have to hide away from the censor's eye, which is why they populate genres where people now expect to find them (NA for instance). I also don't think these are read only by young readers. There's a market for this across all ages, all genders, all sexual orientations.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Nic said:


> I also don't think these are read only by young readers. There's a market for this across all ages, all genders, all sexual orientations.


But don't you hate it when it's assumed EVERYONE wants to read that, and it's romantic? Instead of what it actually is, a particular, well, kink?


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

HSh said:


> But don't you hate it when it's assumed EVERYONE wants to read that, and it's romantic? Instead of what it actually is, a particular, well, kink?


Well those books dominate the NA and erotic romance charts. Those books sell, it's easier for an author to jump on a bangwagon than to try something very different. It's risky. 
i don't write kinky or abusive alpha males and my sales are no where near as good as a lot of the authors in my genre.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

HSh said:


> But don't you hate it when it's assumed EVERYONE wants to read that, and it's romantic? Instead of what it actually is, a particular, well, kink?


The latest numbers are that a closely estimated 50% want to read this, so it's hardly a rarity. I wouldn't call it a kink either, it's far too common for that. In the end the romance-type HEA is also _a kink_ and bears little correlation to actual life.

What I do think is that it needs an own sub-genre, and that it gets accepted as what it is. Instead we foist our own sensitivities on countries like for instance Japan, where people openly acknowledge this, and censor it on our own home turf.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Nic said:


> The latest numbers are that a closely estimated 50% want to read this, so it's hardly a rarity. I wouldn't call it a kink either, it's far too common for that. In the end the romance-type HEA is also _a kink_ and bears little correlation to actual life.
> 
> What I do think is that it needs an own sub-genre, and that it gets accepted as what it is. Instead we foist our own sensitivities on countries like for instance Japan, where people openly acknowledge this, and censor it on our own home turf.


Oh, you mean cultures where sexual abuse of women is so prevalent that women (and young girls) need separate train carriages to safely commute to work? Where a 13 year old school girl can walk into a convenience store and see a wall of men looking at rape porn of girls just like her? Japan is definitely NOT an example to aspire to. It's a country where rape has been normalised and rarely reported.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

A lot of these men and enough women look at rape fantasies which depict male rape. As is by the way a much written and bought facet of m/m romance. Where mainly women read it.

So please, if you want to censor erotica for their content, do it with all of it.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

anniejocoby said:


> Yes. There are plenty of romances where the hea comes after several books. In fact, that's the trend. Some readers hate it. Others like it. But just because someone hates it doesn't give that person the right, imho, to declare it not a romance. If there was no hea, ever, then, yes, it's not a romance. But if the hea eventually comes, then it's a serial romance. To say otherwise would be effectively dismissing plenty of today's romances, including fifty shades and pretty much all serial romances, which, like it or not, are the thing nowadays. And, yes, even Goodreads considers Fifty Shades a romance...it was a finalist over there for "Best Romance." If it were not considered a romance, it would be a finalist for "Best some category of book but it sure ain't a romance".


Of course I have the right to say its not romance when there is no HEA/HFN. Why wouldn't I. There is a lot of push back from romance readers and it will continue to come. If there is a HEA at say part 5, then I call it a chopped up novel. Otherwise it would have a HEA with the first book.

I don't think its as much a trend but many new readers coming on board and many former fan fiction readers coming on. Nobody is saying anything is wrong here, but no HEA, no romance. Its as simple as that. Now many romance readers read other stuff to as I said. I read some serials, I didn't read them as romance though, cause they weren't. The one I tried reading is still not finished so who knows it if ever will have a HEA. 
Its not really that complicated. It just is. Of course they sell. Doesn't mean that a lot of romance readers consider them romance though. At least I am not seeing any of that on any of the romance sites I hang out.

Of course us readers get to have opinions on our favorite genres. You get to call them romance and I get to say they are not. For they are not, they never will be to me and many others. But if that is what one likes to write, have at it. Plenty of readers out there for everything. I can stay away from them by hanging out around romance readers and they always know what is what.

There is a reason why for many of us the current amazon categories are pretty useless as I find often very little romance in browsing. But that doesn't change the definition of the genre Romance if books are wrongly categorized.

As to calling them serial romance, that might not be a bad new genre name for them. Or better, romantic serials. With sub genres. It tells everyone out the gate that its a serial and one must read all parts to have a romance. Or serials with romantic elements as some of them seem to be of the endless type with no end or HEA in sight. If the word serial is anywhere for me to see, then I know what it is.

Its really not that complicated. But romance readers will always have a say, we love to blabble about our books. No way will we ever not have opinions on our favorite genre.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Atunah said:


> Again, other romance readers on sites like goodreads are a big help in sifting out actual romance from that that is not.


Goodreads made "Fifty Shades of Grey" a finalist for Best Romance. "Fifty Shades" ended with the heroine leaving the hero for good, having finally gotten a backbone. If Goodreads is the barometer, then a HEA isn't necessary until the end of the trilogy or serial or what-not.

I'm sorry that you don't like it, but to say that the romance writers who write serials somehow are not writing legitimate romances is a matter of personal opinion, and should be stated as such.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

anniejocoby said:


> Goodreads made "Fifty Shades of Grey" a finalist for Best Romance. "Fifty Shades" ended with the heroine leaving the hero for good, having finally gotten a backbone. If Goodreads is the barometer, then a HEA isn't necessary until the end of the trilogy or serial or what-not.
> 
> I'm sorry that you don't like it, but to say that the romance writers who write serials somehow are not writing legitimate romances is a matter of personal opinion, and should be stated as such.


I think its pretty much a given that everything we say here, me, you and everyone else, is opinion. Don't think I have to really put that disclaimer down. Or you either. 

I am talking about goodreads romance readers. Don't really care what nominations there are since it falls under the same issue I already talked about. Just because things are being filed under wrong categories, doesn't change the basic definition of a genre. 
Readers that one follows and friends, romance readers, romance groups, that is where one gets that info. My lovely fellow reader gatekeepers. .

And its not so much that I don't like it, I just don't consider them romance. *shrugs

I think I am going to stick with the genre romantic serial. Might send another suggestion to amazon, along with the umteenth time of asking for a length filter to sort out all the short stuff. They got a bunch of filters already on the left, why not a couple of more.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Not saying I like the alpholes to the extreme in HR, I just tolerate more in that sub genres. But what those HR do well is the redemption


1. Alpholes is the best word ever. Thank you.
2. I never thought of it, but yes: it's the redemption. These men work very hard to redeem themselves. I haven't come across that with some of the contemporary alpholes.



> But I am also glad that contempo romance writers like Rosalind are continuing to write adult contempo romance with grown up characters. Krista Ball just had one out recently I really liked and the h/H are in their late 30's with both on a level field as far as wealth.


Thanks  I got tired of reading balance inequality in my romances. I wanted to write a women who was, in her own career, as successful as the dude. It was interesting how much angst that freed up


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Atunah said:


> I think its pretty much a given that everything we say here, me, you and everyone else, is opinion. Don't think I have to really put that disclaimer down. Or you either.
> 
> I am talking about goodreads romance readers. Don't really care what nominations there are since it falls under the same issue I already talked about. Just because things are being filed under wrong categories, doesn't change the basic definition of a genre.
> Readers that one follows and friends, romance readers, romance groups, that is where one gets that info. My lovely fellow reader gatekeepers. .
> ...


Goodreads readers voted on it, which made it, you know, a finalist. Now, personally, I don't consider Fifty Shades to be a romance, because I don't find an abusive, domineering, controlling hero to be a proper romantic hero. But I'm going to recognize that this is a personal preference, and that, unfortunately for society, Fifty Shades is considered to be a romance. I'm not going to try to say that it needs it's own category because I don't like the subject matter.

That's all I'm saying.


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## Ebook Itch (Mar 3, 2015)

In our research, we've heard a lot of requests for more Geek Romance and Nerd Romance.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Ebook Itch said:


> In our research, we've heard a lot of requests for more Geek Romance and Nerd Romance.


Love those. Geeky, Nerd and I also love the awkward ones. I read some nice historicals with those types. Yet another trope I like. I have so many shelves on goodreads already yet I still don't have all those tropes marked.



Krista D. Ball said:


> 1. Alpholes is the best word ever. Thank you.
> 2. I never thought of it, but yes: it's the redemption. These men work very hard to redeem themselves. I haven't come across that with some of the contemporary alpholes.
> 
> Thanks  I got tired of reading balance inequality in my romances. I wanted to write a women who was, in her own career, as successful as the dude. It was interesting how much angst that freed up


Can't take credit for the Alphole, I read it on various online places. I just loved the term. Plus it doesn't tease the filters. 

Yeah, when the power level with the h/H is the same, or similar, angst or whatever conflicts there are tend to more character focused. More internal for lack of a better word. Now don't get me wrong, I lurve me the power imbalance romances, more so in historical. The street urchin downtrotten heroine meets handsome either stiff and proper Lordling, or rakish Lordling. I am a sucker for that. .

But I want variety, I don't want just one kind of flavor and its just nice to see other CR being written still than what seems to be out in the front right now.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm also a sucker for the rich historical heroine widow who takes the impoverished rake to her bed, a la Tom Jones. 

...I should write an updated Tom Jones story


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

So how does someone sift through the contemporary romance filter? Upthread people mentioned "clean" gets you "inspirational" (not my thing), "sex" can cover such a wide range and age filters don't necessarily do it (as also discussed), etc. 

I used to like the Harlequin Super Romances, for example, when it was harder to find longer contemporary romances so Supers used to offer a wide range of stories without a whole lot of sex (I skip that part, so I do tend to avoid books where that means I do a lot of skipping, no matter how much I like the rest of the story). That's just an example, but I was trying to figure out how I would find those books if I went looking now, and I honestly don't know.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Honestly? I rely on other people to tell me what to read.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

My Dog's Servant said:


> So how does someone sift through the contemporary romance filter? Upthread people mentioned "clean" gets you "inspirational" (not my thing), "sex" can cover such a wide range and age filters don't necessarily do it (as also discussed), etc.
> 
> I used to like the Harlequin Super Romances, for example, when it was harder to find longer contemporary romances so Supers used to offer a wide range of stories without a whole lot of sex (I skip that part, so I do tend to avoid books where that means I do a lot of skipping, no matter how much I like the rest of the story). That's just an example, but I was trying to figure out how I would find those books if I went looking now, and I honestly don't know.


Here is a group on Goodreads for just that.

https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/10067-clean-romances

They even specify, clean not inspirational. I am not a fan of the word clean, but it kind of is the code word now for non sexual content. They have over 3000 members so maybe you find some reads there.

The other option is to start a thread in the book corner here at KB. We have threads for historical romance, one for contempo/romantic suspense and there is one for PNR/UF.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

There is some news about this around the internet today that might help solve the sexual content issue. Amazon are beta testing a new review system where one of the questions asks readers about that. The choice of answers:
No sexual content
Some
Explicit

Here's the full link: http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/2015/03/amazon-adds-new-review-options-via-drop-down-menus/


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Lydniz said:


> That's going to be fairly subjective, though. One person's mild frotting is going to be another's "Good Lordy, Aunt Maisie, cover your eyes!"


Yeah, no kidding. I book I read a while back by a historical romance author that is known for her fade to black romances, got reviews that said how full of sex it was and that it wasn't a "clean" romance. Lynn Kurland is the author. I am still scratching my head at that since it wasn't just a fade to black with that book, it was literally slam bedroom door in face and I don't recall no sex or sensual actions of any kind. Yet, reviewers called it full of sex.

I saw similar reviews on older Mary Balogh and Carla Kelly. There I read things like filthy graphic sex. I am like, huh? .

So how in the world would that even work when some readers think a kiss is graphic sex. Or a erotic romance is barely lukewarm to others.

I consider Mary Balogh and Carla Kelly at the barely warm to warm level at most by the way.

I am not seeing those drop downs yet on my end for reviews. As long as that stuff is optional, if not, I might just not bother reviewing on Amazon anymore. Too much thinking.  Its hard enough to write reviews as it is.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Atunah said:


> Yeah, no kidding. I book I read a while back by a historical romance author that is known for her fade to black romances, got reviews that said how full of sex it was and that it wasn't a "clean" romance. Lynn Kurland is the author. I am still scratching my head at that since it wasn't just a fade to black with that book, it was literally slam bedroom door in face and I don't recall no sex or sensual actions of any kind. Yet, reviewers called it full of sex.


I think some people are going to be offended by stories that have sex in them at all, even if it's not described. I was trying to find the ground rules for that goodreads group mentioned above as regards that but couldn't.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2015)

Lydniz said:


> That's going to be fairly subjective, though. One person's mild frotting is going to be another's "Good Lordy, Aunt Maisie, cover your eyes!"


I can see it being a huge problem. I have a low star review where the reader complained about how they struggled with all the constant smut, yet the book in question doesn't have *any* sex scenes (and I should know, I wrote it). It's very subjective, some people don't even like to read about kissing and will label that "graphic smut". Lord knows what they would do if they cracked open a genuinely explicit book! lol


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Lydniz said:


> I think some people are going to be offended by stories that have sex in them at all, even if it's not described. I was trying to find the ground rules for that goodreads group mentioned above as regards that but couldn't.


I was looking around on that group and couldn't really find a solid statement on that either. I think they go with the members. Just looking through a thread where they can't really agree on if Breaking Dawn (Twilight) is considered clean. Some say yes, others say no.

I just knew of that groups existence although I myself never seek out "clean" romances. So I have no clue what would be acceptable for those looking for that. I do know that those that need those non sexual reads tend not to read "up" in romances, as in up to higher steam levels. But those of us that read about any kind of steam level have no problem reading down. I love Georgette Heyer for example and they are super super devoid of sex. 
But not devoid of sexual tension. Venetia has a incredible sensual scene in at one point, at least to me, because of the emotions on how its written. Yet, there is no sex or such thing. Lord Demerel, sigh. 

I wish I could find a better word than clean. It always to me seems to imply sensual scenes in romance are dirty.

I read any and all levels of steam. Although I prefer there to be some kind of payoff, especially if there has been a lot of teasing through out. Not a fan of getting the door slammed in my face. A well written sensual scene does a lot of getting a better understanding of the characters, their interactions, their emotions as they react to each other. They need to be individual based on each different characters in each different book. I mean its a very intimate thing and must be part of the overall journey of the couple for me to work.

I get more itchy even by the other drop downs about these beta reviews someone posted. Plot? Narration? . Whats next, do I have to write a book report. *shivers.


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## JKata (Dec 9, 2014)

Atunah said:


> I wish I could find a better word than clean. It always to me seems to imply sensual scenes in romance are dirty.


Some call romance without sex scenes as "sweet romance." Not a perfect term either, since romance can be both sensual and sweet. In Regency romance, they're sometimes called traditional Regencies. I suppose in the end, we authors have to use the same terms readers use, if only to avoid confusion.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Atunah said:


> I wish I could find a better word than clean. It always to me seems to imply sensual scenes in romance are dirty.


Non-explicit, maybe.


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## cwashburn (May 20, 2013)

When I write romance I would describe it as mature (as in mid 30's to 50's)  and sweet/clean (I don't like the clean word but that seems to be Amazon's designation.  Sweet calls up other genre types).  This category only has 8 books so is definitely not saturated.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

Just want to put in my request for hot steamy paranormal romance but with NO violence, gore, swearing and blood-sucking.  They are really scarce...I search all the time.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

katetanner said:


> Fifty shades of grey is a romance (its a soft erotic romance), it's certainly not porn or straight erotica. It's not even that erotic, that's why i say soft. I said on another thread, i've read much more steamier books in the NA genre. The author has said it's a romance with some kinky sex.
> The die hard 50 Shades fans love the romantic aspect of the book. They love Christian Grey, they are not so focused on the BDSM.
> 
> The media focuses on the kinky aspects of the book because it makes it more interesting to write about sex shops and an increase in sales of sex toys following the 50 shades phenomenon. The reporter can sit there and giggle like a silly virginal school girl and pretend she's never seen a sex toy before or never watched porn on the internet or a DVD. It's like E.L. James invented sex toys or BDSM.


Yeah. I've never read 50SoG. Not my cup of tea. But every time someone calls it porn I want to punch them in the face. Or even worse, they call it mommy porn. Like if it's for women it must be trash and it can't even be proper trash it needs to be mom trash so no guys will dare touch it.

The film coming out was the absolute worst because we had to sit through a bajillion journalists calling a movie with no explicit, non-simulated sex porn. To my knowledge, there isn't even a C*** shot in the film. How could that possibly be porn?

I have totally given up on this conversation with non-romance readers/writers.


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## Cora Jane Snow (Dec 19, 2013)

I also use "sweet" and not "clean" as a keyword. I've had success with the two short, sweet romances I have to date. My trouble is I wanted the next to be a novel, and it's taking too long between the release of my last shorter work. So I'm back to releasing another short piece, just to get some more work out there.

To answer the question from the OP, "sweet romance" is a good sub, and they do sell. Even the short ones.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

For me though sweet doesn't automatically mean no sex. For me it describes more the tone of the romance, the way the characters are with each other. Some of the sweetest romance novels I read had some mighty steamy scenes, but they were also sweet. Cause they matched the characters. Am I making sense here?


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## Cora Jane Snow (Dec 19, 2013)

Atunah said:


> For me though sweet doesn't automatically mean no sex. For me it describes more the tone of the romance, the way the characters are with each other. Some of the sweetest romance novels I read had some mighty steamy scenes, but they were also sweet. Cause they matched the characters. Am I making sense here?


Yes, it does make sense.

I wish there was a clear category that says "no sex" but also not inspirational. We kind of have to be clear in descriptions, covers, etc, but it can be confusing to readers.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Atunah said:


> For me though sweet doesn't automatically mean no sex. For me it describes more the tone of the romance, the way the characters are with each other. Some of the sweetest romance novels I read had some mighty steamy scenes, but they were also sweet. Cause they matched the characters. Am I making sense here?


You are making sense, but just as I agree with you that anything labeled genre Romance should have a HEA, I disagree here. If it's labeled sweet, I expect nothing more graphic than kisses, and if I got something with steamy scenes in a book the author labeled sweet, that author would go on my Never Again list. I really resent people mislabeling things because they think it gets them more visibility or exposure or whatever. I dislike being conned into buying something I don't want to read. It's like the traditionally published books that feature a pet on the cover. Pet lovers like me pick up the book only to find one character has a dog or cat that gets one sentence. What a wonderful way to alienate a reader.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Cora Jane Snow said:


> Yes, it does make sense.
> 
> I wish there was a clear category that says "no sex" but also not inspirational. We kind of have to be clear in descriptions, covers, etc, but it can be confusing to readers.


I think the best you can do is put one line about the non content right at the beginning of the blurb. 
This no sex, clean, sweet whatever its called is really only an issue for those that just do not want to read any kind of sensuality. Those readers actively search them out. They have online friends that are like minded, they join groups and they make forum threads about it. They will find them. It narrows their choices quite a bit so they are pro active on that. They are in general more careful in reading the reviews.

Those of us that read up and down the scale don't really care one way or another. The only time I care is if I feel something is missing. That has happened. I tend to not jump on book that say clean because of past experience of them either being inspirational, or christian romance or the couple felt more like brother and sister. But if my reader friends like it, I know it worked and I'll read it. I need all levels of steam scale to be done well, from Georgette Heyer none to Laurann Dohner erotic romance all the way to Megan Hart erotica.



ellenoc said:


> You are making sense, but just as I agree with you that anything labeled genre Romance should have a HEA, I disagree here. If it's labeled sweet, I expect nothing more graphic than kisses, and if I got something with steamy scenes in a book the author labeled sweet, that author would go on my Never Again list. I really resent people mislabeling things because they think it gets them more visibility or exposure or whatever. I dislike being conned into buying something I don't want to read. It's like the traditionally published books that feature a pet on the cover. Pet lovers like me pick up the book only to find one character has a dog or cat that gets one sentence. What a wonderful way to alienate a reader.


I do get what you mean. When I see sweet used as description book it is like you said generally done for "clean" now. Its just for me personally I used to use that word differently. So yes, agree that when people now see sweet, they expect no sex. And those that don't like to read anything with sex, should get what they want and not have one pulled over them. I agree on that.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

If the sex scenes I write were made into movies, music volume would increase and the scene would either fade to black or scan a blue sky filmed through green tree branches. I simply cannot write explicit sex. My characters do have sex and the while the reader knows they do, they can't watch or    participate.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Sapphire said:


> If the sex scenes I write were made into movies, music volume would increase and the scene would either fade to black or scan a blue sky filmed through green tree branches. I simply cannot write explicit sex. My characters do have sex and the while the reader knows they do, they can't watch or  participate.


Choose your own adventure erotic romance. Now there is an untapped genre!


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## Cora Jane Snow (Dec 19, 2013)

On another topic, I also hope that Gothic, creepy mansion, sinister housekeeper, Rebecca-type novels make a comeback. I'd love to read more of it, and it would be great fun to write.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2015)

1) This: I also write adult romance: people around 28-35. Mature. This seems to be an underserved niche. For women who on't necessarily want women's fiction without a hunky guy or happy ending, but don't want to read about immature people miscommunicating and being stupid as we all were in our early 20s. I get lots of reader comments about this.

2) Romance Genres that are underserved

Clean Romance
Historical Romance (yes, there are lots of books but there's more demand than supply) with good historical accuracy
MMA Romance
MC Romance that isn't sex sex sex. In fact, authors who can pull this off without explicit sex will do very well. Think Guns of Anarchy - just a bit cleaner.
Time Travel Romance
Christian Romance
Sweet Romance i.e. stuff that makes you very happy. I think they call it 'heartwarming romance'
Prepper Romance - not sure if this is even a category yet. However, whoever starts writing this first and properly will become huge. Perhaps even the first 10-20 authors who do this.
End of World Romances (perhaps this is part of SciFi Romance). Not YA. aimed at an older audience.
2nd Chance Romance for Mature Readers.
Boy Band & Talent Show Romance. Yeah, it might kill you to write this nonsense, but it'll sell like anything if done right. We have a couple of generations growing up with this idea of romance - someone on the TV screen and running into them in real life.


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

ireaderreview said:


> 1) This: I also write adult romance: people around 28-35. Mature. This seems to be an underserved niche. For women who on't necessarily want women's fiction without a hunky guy or happy ending, but don't want to read about immature people miscommunicating and being stupid as we all were in our early 20s. I get lots of reader comments about this.
> 
> 2) Romance Genres that are underserved
> 
> ...


VERY interesting list.

Any room for time travel that isn't to the Scottish Highlands?

Thanks to Outlander and a million copycats, it seems the market is hung up on the one small piece of land during that
one relatively short time period. There're gazillions of other locations and periods.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Choose your own adventure erotic romance. Now there is an untapped genre!


I want to say someone around here writes those--or at least was writing them. She or he had to change the name though because the Choose Your Own Adventure (Chooseco, I think it is) people went bananas.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

MC romance - multicultural romance, right?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Richard Stooker said:


> Thanks to Outlander and a million copycats, it seems the market is hung up on the one small piece of land during that
> one relatively short time period. There're gazillions of other locations and periods.


Monique Martin has been doing very well with her romancey adventurey historical mystery adventures (look, I can't nail down the genre on those, ok?  )


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

I find Gothic novels listed under Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance nowadays.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I find Gothic romances under historical romance. A recent one I read was Dark Surrender by Erica Ridley and I see that is listed in both historical romance, but also romance-gothic. So there is a category apparently for that in kindle books. 

Kindle-kindleebooks-romance-gothic

Of course I see a lot of wrongly categorised books stuffed in there like the billionaire vampire serials and such. And erotica of course has been also stuffed in there. Sigh. 
Lots of shifters and vampires in there. To me gothic is something different, but oh well.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

Regarding this: Any room for time travel that isn't to the Scottish Highlands?

I'm not sure. Yes, it does seem that people assume Time Travel romance novels must have men in kilts.

I've not seen, as far as my memory recalls, any time travel romance in non-scottish locations doing well. Recently there have been these sci-fi + time travel + romance hybrids. But they don't do half as well as the scottish historical romances.


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> MC romance - multicultural romance, right?


Motorcycle Club Romance


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

Harriet Ashburn said:


> Scoundrel, not jerk! He's a scoundrel!!!


Nay! Stuck-up, half-witted, Scruffy-looking Nerf-herder!



Cora Jane Snow said:


> On another topic, I also hope that Gothic, creepy mansion, sinister housekeeper, Rebecca-type novels make a comeback. I'd love to read more of it, and it would be great fun to write.


I have a feeling there is going to be a huge market for Gothic Romance this fall once Crimson Peak hits theaters.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

SevenDays said:


> I want to say someone around here writes those--or at least was writing them. She or he had to change the name though because the Choose Your Own Adventure (Chooseco, I think it is) people went bananas.


Right, because the name "CYOA" is actually trademarked. I was in an interactive online one years ago and we couldn't call ourselves that either.


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## joyceharmon (May 21, 2012)

Justice Joy said:


> Some call romance without sex scenes as "sweet romance." Not a perfect term either, since romance can be both sensual and sweet. In Regency romance, they're sometimes called traditional Regencies. I suppose in the end, we authors have to use the same terms readers use, if only to avoid confusion.


Yaaay! I've really been pushing the 'traditional' term for Heyer-style Regencies. In my blurbs, I call my books 'traditional', but put both 'sweet' and 'clean' in the keywords. I don't really like those terms much, but I know that people search on them.

And for people looking for 'clean' romances that are not in the inspirational sub-genre, there's a Facebook group called Clean Indie Reads that specifies it's for non-inspy. Nothing against inspy but that genre already has plenty of groups.


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## joyceharmon (May 21, 2012)

Atunah said:


> For me though sweet doesn't automatically mean no sex. For me it describes more the tone of the romance, the way the characters are with each other. Some of the sweetest romance novels I read had some mighty steamy scenes, but they were also sweet. Cause they matched the characters. Am I making sense here?


Uh, no. Sweet can mean a lot of things, from sugar in your tea to a warm and cuddly feeling. But when used to describe a romance novel, it has come to mean a novel without steamy scenes. If you described a romance with sex scenes as 'sweet', you'd be blasted by readers, because they would consider that false advertising.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

There is no on-page penetration in First Wrong Impressions. There is no nudity. That statement is important because it has been blasted repeatedly for not being a sweet romance. I personally never said it was, nor marketed to those. However, some people said it was "sweet" because I don't describe sex on page. It is not "sweet" because (according to my many, many, MANY bad reviews):

1. A character has casual sex off page. 
2. There is swearing.
3. There are gay people.
4. There are bisexual people.
5. Blatant about "sexual things" (i think this was when a character discusses her rape at a press conference...but it wasn't graphic or anything)

For a lot of readers, it's not just the on-page sex.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> But if we're talking about underserved markets, I know there's a definite market for more traditional books (longer time frame, hero not so tortured, adults, etc.) that have steamy sex but not so much of it. Many readers enjoy the steamy sex, but don't want to read a whole book about sex, or one where the relationship starts with sex and then is instalove and obsession. (Which is a very NA thing; also, I think, a paranormal erom thing.)
> 
> So sort of a tradpub book but with a little more sex. I wrote that because it's what I enjoy myself (and hard to find). I do think there's a demand.


I agree with this, Rosalind. I love to read this type of book and it seems they're becoming harder and harder to find. I have read and enjoyed your books as well, btw. I think long-time romance readers will always love the classics. I assume that's why so many authors who have been at it a long time are still dominating the charts.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

ireaderreview said:


> Regarding this: Any room for time travel that isn't to the Scottish Highlands?
> 
> I'm not sure. Yes, it does seem that people assume Time Travel romance novels must have men in kilts.
> 
> I've not seen, as far as my memory recalls, any time travel romance in non-scottish locations doing well. Recently there have been these sci-fi + time travel + romance hybrids. But they don't do half as well as the scottish historical romances.


I'm doing decent with a time travel series with no kilts - it has Native Americans & time traveling Vikings, haha. But like you said, it is in fantasy categories as well, where it gets pretty good exposure. I do get plenty of readers who say they are hungry for time travel romance set in new places.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Cheryl Douglas said:


> I agree with this, Rosalind. I love to read this type of book and it seems they're becoming harder and harder to find. I have read and enjoyed your books as well, btw. I think long-time romance readers will always love the classics. I assume that's why so many authors who have been at it a long time are still dominating the charts.


I've been considering bringing back the heat measurements on my couple romances and putting it right in the blurb. I think it was Samhain who used to do that?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

joyceharmon said:


> Uh, no. Sweet can mean a lot of things, from sugar in your tea to a warm and cuddly feeling. But when used to describe a romance novel, it has come to mean a novel without steamy scenes. If you described a romance with sex scenes as 'sweet', you'd be blasted by readers, because they would consider that false advertising.


I am just a reader though and I might call a romance I read as sweet based on the characters or how they treated each other. Not based on if there is sex or not. But that is just me. I see much more use of the word clean for those looking for no mention of sensuality. 
But yeah, I see clean used pretty much exclusively among readers and those reviews are often such a turn off to me I tend to pass on a book that attracts a lot of the "clean" seekers. Mainly because often it includes terms like thankfully there is no filthy sex in this novel, or if you want porn, this book is not for you. I have seen so many of those kind of reviews. It just feels like a judgement call, a diss, by readers and it transfers in my mind to the book and I look for something else.



Krista D. Ball said:


> There is no on-page penetration in First Wrong Impressions. There is no nudity. That statement is important because it has been blasted repeatedly for not being a sweet romance. I personally never said it was, nor marketed to those. However, some people said it was "sweet" because I don't describe sex on page. It is not "sweet" because (according to my many, many, MANY bad reviews):


Ok, this totally confuses me. I thought slam bedroom door in face and fade to black is clean. I mean what else could it be. So if a book is clean its assumed they are having sex behind that door that just got slammed in my face as a reader. Do these readers never read about human characters? I man humans have sex. So how can you write any book about humans and not assume at some point someone might have sex, even if its not mentioned.

Befuddled, its my middle name. Must be exhausting trying to find romance to read where folks aren't even having sex of page or in fade to black.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I agree, Atunah. I think, in my particular case, the very mention of queer characters was enough to deem the book "all about sex." Which is incredibly offensive. But it's an important heads up for folks. There are some people saying they want "clean" romance, but what they actually want is cisgender white folks sharing a chaste kiss who say 'sugar' when they are in a car accident. And those books exist for them. 

Ugh. We need better labeling.


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## Happy chick (Mar 3, 2015)

Crystal_ said:


> I like angsty stuff, so I mostly read NA, but it seems like in every other book the guy is just a jerk. And not a sexy Han Solo kind of jerk. Just a jerk.
> 
> I feel like there must be an audience for steamy, angsty NA where the hero respects the heroine, even if he's a little bit of a jerk. But that's not exactly something you can market.


Have you read Deeper and Harder by Robin York. It's exactly what you described...brilliant books!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

1) Time Travel Romance with Native Americans and Vikings. That sounds pretty good.
Hope you keep having luck with that.

2) Regarding this: I agree with this, Rosalind. I love to read this type of book and it seems they're becoming harder and harder to find. I have read and enjoyed your books as well, btw. I think long-time romance readers will always love the classics. I assume that's why so many authors who have been at it a long time are still dominating the charts.

Yes, agreed.

Cheryl, Rosalind, at some point of time there's going to be a backlash to all the BDSM stuff. Surprising it's lasted so long.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

ireaderreview said:


> Cheryl, Rosalind, at some point of time there's going to be a backlash to all the BDSM stuff. Surprising it's lasted so long.


I don't think there will be a "backlash" but a slow process of decline because readers will be bored due to a lack of new ideas and scenarios. When that happens, new works with BDSM will not do as well in the ranks or sales and authors will stop writing them. Then, after a suitable time has passed, BDSM may reappear when something new is added. It's a trend and trends come and go and then come around again. What remains constant is the basics of boy and girl meet and fall in love, are pulled apart by circumstances, and find their way back to each other for a HEA/HFN. That is perennial.


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## JessA (Jul 17, 2014)

Atunah said:


> Romance reader here. Non saturated means stuff I am looking for to read.
> 
> Steam punk romance
> Sci fi romance
> ...


Yes, yes please! American revolution romance ftw! I haven't seen one of those in forever.


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## joyceharmon (May 21, 2012)

Sela said:


> I don't think there will be a "backlash" but a slow process of decline because readers will be bored due to a lack of new ideas and scenarios. When that happens, new works with BDSM will not do as well in the ranks or sales and authors will stop writing them. Then, after a suitable time has passed, BDSM may reappear when something new is added. It's a trend and trends come and go and then come around again.


That's exactly what happened to the gothic in the 60s and 70s. It was a popular genre, so the publishers bought anything gothic, including a lot of absolute crap. Even if people still enjoyed the genre, they got tried of trying to find good examples of the genre and they gave up on it. Absolutely killed the gothic for a couple decades.


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

This thread has sparked some ideas, particularly for a sci-fi romance. I tried napping earlier before I had to work but had an idea that required me to get out of bed and write it down.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2015)

Yeah, this is probably right: 

I don't think there will be a "backlash" but a slow process of decline because readers will be bored due to a lack of new ideas and scenarios. When that happens, new works with BDSM will not do as well in the ranks or sales and authors will stop writing them. Then, after a suitable time has passed, BDSM may reappear when something new is added. It's a trend and trends come and go and then come around again. What remains constant is the basics of boy and girl meet and fall in love, are pulled apart by circumstances, and find their way back to each other for a HEA/HFN. That is perennial.


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