# How I Made $500,000.00 Self-Publishing Romance eBooks



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

In the spirit of Annie B's post showing us the tale of two approaches to writing, I thought I'd share my story. I will likely pass the $500,000.00 in career income next month, unless Amazon implodes or an asteroid strikes.  (And I'm not really a big seller or big name author in my genre)

Here's my chart, chronicling my income from the start of my self publishing career in June 2012 (data for 2012 and 2013 are combined in the first row, with December 2013 average for comparison, because I didn't start keeping monthly income records until 2014):



How I did it:

1. I started planning in April 2012, when I read JA Konrath's blog and decided to quit submitting to agents because no one wanted to represent me with my vampire romance novels. So, I read several books and blogs on self-publishing and researched book blogs that reviewed and promoted paranormal romance novels.

2. I started working on my social media platform, creating a Twitter and Facebook account under my future pen name. I cultivated readers and authors who were in my genre, and spent most of my time talking about television shows and movies. At the time, I was polishing my first novel and finishing my second.

3. I hired a cover designer and got two covers for $99 each, plus two $5 stock photos, so $104 each.

4. I had someone edit my books for typos and obvious grammatical mistakes. I didn't pay my editor until I made serious money and then I went back and paid her for her earlier work. I have paid her for each book since, costing between $600 - $1000 per book depending on length.

5. In June 2013, I published the first book on Amazon, listing it for sale for $4.99 and signed up for KDPS.

6. I submitted my book to several book review blogs and lucked out, getting a couple who gave my book decent reviews.

7. I announced that I had released my first book to my several hundred Twitter and Facebook followers and friends and had 6 sales in June and then 26 sales in July.

8. I ran some free days in KDPS and gave away several hundred copies of book 1. I listed my books at Goodreads and created a blog and profile.

9. I released my second book in July, listing it for $4.99 and had 59 sales.

10. I released book 3 in the series in December, listing it for $4.99 and had sales of 2800 books in total for the year and made $9,750.00

11. In 2013, I released 2 more novels in a new contemporary erotic romance series. All were in KDPS.

12. I released the first novel in my contemporary romance series in April 2013, deciding to try my hand at another romance category since my paranormal romance series was selling fairly slowly, at least in my opinion. I had my first 5-figure month that release, earning $17,642. The previous month I had earned under $1,000.

13. I released the second book in the contemporary romance series in September, and had another solid month in sales, selling 12,000+ books.

I FORGOT TO ADD THAT I QUIT MY DAY JOB IN NOVEMBER 2013!!!

14. I had my first 99c Bookbub in November 2013 and broke $20K for the first time. My book hit #5 in the Kindle store and was #2 in Romance. An agent wrote me and offered representation. 

15. I wrote book 3 in the contemporary romance series in January 2014, then released the boxed set two months later.

15.5 I went into a 99c boxed set with several other romance authors and hit the USA Today list. My book was the headliner. I was in three other 99c boxed sets in 2014 /2015. This required that I pull out of KDPS with that book and over the summer, I pulled the other books as well and went into wide distribution.

16. I had my second Bookbub for book 2 in the contemporary romance series in February 2014. I hit #12 in the Kindle store and #8 in romance. I ran two more 99c Bookbub promos in 2014 and released a novella and a short story as well as Book 4 in the paranormal romance series.

17. You can check on the graph what happened after Kindle Unlimited 1.0 struck in July 2014. My income dropped considerably and consistently due to loss of visibility. I put my books into KU in response and saw no benefit. In fact, my income kept falling relative to my average monthly income.

18. I pulled out of KU 1.0 at the end of February, went permafree with the first books in my series, and went into wide distribution.

20. I released several books this year and have had 3 Bookbubs so far. I will have 12 full length novels, 3 boxed sets, and 2 novellas and a short story self published in total since I started by the end of the year.

21. I started to advertise on Facebook in April and Apple promoted me in March and again this month.

You can see my income has increased considerably over what it was while I was in KU 1.0.

I made $107,286 in 2012 and 2013 combined. I made $154K in 2014. So far in 2015, I have made $212.406 and am on track for $300,000 for the year.

Glad I found Joe Konrath's blog in April 2012 and followed his advice.


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## Sam Winterwood (Jun 25, 2013)

This post. Wow.
I need a moment to absorb all this information

Thank you so much for sharing!

(How much is KBoards sharing the love lately?)

EDIT: and congratulations I should add!


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## Ann Grant (Jul 16, 2015)

This is fabulous. Congratulations and thanks for sharing the details.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Thanks for this. I need to write faster.


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## EllieKeaton (Apr 12, 2014)

Fantastic work Sela - love these posts.  

Congrats and hope it keeps going up and up for you.

All the best

Ellie


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## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

Thanks Sela - I love these threads. And so interesting to see different approaches. The common ground seems to be that the writers who plan, study, strategise, and adapt have a better shot at this than those that don't. Not to mention an understanding of genre and the ability to write a great story. 

Lots to think about!

Thanks again for being so generous.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I want to add that Sela is one of "our" superstars in Mark Dawson's FB advertising group. Her willingness to share amazing graphs (near vertical explosion in boxset sales) is legendary there.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Love it. Well done. I admire anyone willing to share numbers in this climate.


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## Clare W (Aug 13, 2015)

> Love it. Well done. I admire anyone willing to share numbers in this climate.


Seconded! Plus the generosity in sharing exactly how she did it - month by month, milestone by milestone. Thank you Sela!

Clare


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

This is great to read. Thank you for posting this. 

I think there's no perfect secret formula. It is all about taking tips from other authors who are selling like hot cakes (JA Konrath, Mark Dawson, Hugh Howey, H.M. Ward, Jasinda Wilder who reveals a lot in her interviews) and experimenting yourself.

I am a very private person but I am always interested in reading how someone else achieved their success. It makes me smile to read success stories. 
I am always interested in how romance authors stand out in such a crowded genre.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

Hi Sela,

This board has sent me on an alternate path as well. I have turned to romance writing under a pen name. Book 2 of 4 was just released this week and doing slow, but steady sells. I just completed a holiday romance and tomorrow I'll begin my paranormal/sports series.

Posts like yours are so appreciated. It gives us hope that we too can not only make a living, but exceed our dreams, if we just tweak our efforts.

Thank you for sharing.


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

which sub-genre do you have more success in, NA romance, contemporary romance or erotic romance?


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## Bec (Aug 24, 2012)

Great to read. I love these kinds of posts. Thanks for sharing!


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Wonderful (and inspiring) to see those big numbers. Congrats, and thanks for sharing.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Thanks for sharing.

Did I miss the links to the books/author page or are these not revealed? 

Edit: No offense intended, but I honestly don't see the point of these type of "here is my strategy to mega success" threads without revealing the actual books.

It's like a car manufacturer who is anonymous releases a successful sales report detailing how they sold a billion cars, but we never get to drive or even see any of the cars, or know exactly which car(s) are selling/most popular. 

Disclaimer: I am not saying the information isn't helpful or truthful, but I am sure you can understand my point of view.


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## Annabel Chant (Feb 24, 2015)

Congratulations, Sela! What a fantastic success story. Stoked for you   .


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

That's fantastic, congrats  

I think I need to start thinking about series books rather than standalones, LOL! And write faster


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## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Did I miss the links to the books/author page or are these not revealed?


I think Sela chooses not to reveals her pen names.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Wonderful! Many congrats and continued success!


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## Marina Finlayson (May 2, 2014)

Thanks for sharing! It's very inspiring to see what's possible. Was February 2014 your first Bookbub?


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## A Woman&#039;s Place Is In The Rebellion (Apr 28, 2011)

Wow, even a spreadsheet! Congrats and thanks for taking the time to share.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Sela, thank you for sharing your information.  However, I'm waiting for someone to post their success story that does not include Bookbub help.  As you know, they reject far more people than they accept.  Plus, I didn't become a self-published author to have to rely on getting accepted by a Bookbub.

I do, however, feel good about the information I've learned about Facebook ads, particularly Mark Dawson's info.  There are people, such as you, who have had success with Facebook ads, and Bookbub doesn't have anything to do with that success.  

In any case, I'm returning to novellas.  So I'm going to be one of those people who gets to where I want to be without a Bookbub ad.  (As you know, Bookbub doesn't accept novellas.)  Boyd, for example, is one of those authors I look to for inspiration.  He's a successful novella author.


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## R. M. Webb (Jul 24, 2014)

Congratulations Sela! I love seeing authors making their dreams come true!


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Did I miss the links to the books/author page or are these not revealed?
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying about authors not revealing their books but there are always good reasons why an author does not reveal their real name/pen names or their books.
I used to be on another forum and there were some members who did not appreciate it when someone revealed their success story, I got backlash from revealing some sales figures. 
I write romance and not everyone in my family knows what I write. Some would not appreciate that I write steamy books. I write under a pen name.

I think Sela's advice or tips on this forum have been good. 
I have watched Jasinda Wilder's career from the beginning and I have picked up some good tips from her.


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## J.C.Thomas (Aug 23, 2015)

Congratulations on your success, Sela! Thank you for sharing your journey!!

WOW!

You must be very proud 



Sela said:


> In the spirit of Annie B's post showing us the tale of two approaches to writing, I thought I'd share my story. I will likely pass the $500,000.00 in career income next month, unless Amazon implodes or an asteroid strikes.  (And I'm not really a big seller or big name author in my genre)
> 
> Here's my chart, chronicling my income from the start of my self publishing career in June 2012 (data for 2012 and 2013 are combined in the first row, with December 2013 average for comparison, because I didn't start keeping monthly income records until 2014):
> 
> ...


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

I want to be Sela when I grow up.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Wow.  I am inspired, really Sela.  Thank you for sharing your journey with us! Those are fabulous numbers.


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## Genre Hoarder (Oct 4, 2014)

Thank you for sharing this information! You and Annie Bellet are such an inspiration as are countless others who have been so open with numbers, techniques, etc. I'm happy for your success!

These numbers are mind-boggling, but I'm so glad to know that with hard work, determination, perseverance, and a realistic approach that this kind of success can be achieved. 

Well done!


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Wow! Awesome. Congratulations, well deserved! Scary to think how more Facebook ads will impact the future sales and how much they can grow!


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## NS (Jul 8, 2011)

Congratulations and thank you for sharing!


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Love it. Well done. I admire anyone willing to share numbers in this climate.


I've always said I'd never share five figure numbers in this climate. However, sometimes it is in the way the author is sharing that gets the climate so heated. She shared info in a way that seemed she wanted to inspire and help others. Some authors aren't sharing so much as bragging and rubbing in people's faces to make them feel inferior. Not you, but some. There's one who pops in every few months to make fun of newbies and people who don't know who to sell books, brags about what they can do, and leaves never sharing a link to prove anything they say.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

mica said:


> I understand what you are saying about authors not revealing their books but there are always good reasons why an author does not reveal their real name/pen names or their books.
> I used to be on another forum and there were some members who did not appreciate it when someone revealed their success story, I got backlash from revealing some sales figures.
> I write romance and not everyone in my family knows what I write. Some would not appreciate that I write steamy books. I write under a pen name.
> 
> ...


I believe the author has good intentions. But to say I wrote some Romance novels, ran a few BookBubs, and made a boatload of money may be inspiring but it doesn't exactly map out how to do it. Inspiring but not very educational, if that makes sense?

Extra kudos to the authors who reveal everything and hide nothing.


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## North Star Plotting (Jul 11, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> However, I'm waiting for someone to post their success story that does not include Bookbub help.


I don't think this ever really happens. It's become a necessary ingredient for this type of mega-success, it seems.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Inspirational, Sela. Thanks for sharing. That's something to aspire to.



JessHayek69 said:


> I believe the author has good intentions. But to say I wrote some Romance novels, ran a few BookBubs, and made a boatload of money may be inspiring but it doesn't exactly map out how to do it. Inspiring but not very educational, if that makes sense?


Seems to me like her list was pretty specific. It was inspiring and educational if you know enough about how this writing gig works.



JessHayek69 said:


> Extra kudos to the authors who reveal everything and hide nothing.


Other than revealing her pen name, what has she hidden? Is this going to be another one of those veiled accusations that it's not true unless the author reveals their names and books so other people can comb through the rankings and start poking holes in their strategy and call into question how much money they _really_ made?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

You certainly don't need Bookbub to earn a decent income. Whether you can go stratospheric without it is another matter. I couldn't say, not being stratospheric.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

stoney said:


> Inspirational, Sela. Thanks for sharing. That's something to aspire to.
> 
> Seems to me like her list was pretty specific. It was inspiring and educational if you know enough about how this writing gig works.


If you already know enough about how this writing gig works, then what _new_ information did you learn?

Inspiring? Absolutely.

Educational? I don't see it.

Specific missing information:

1)Covers
2)Writing style
3)Story content
4)Exact book length
5)Tropes 
6)Blurbs


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

I pray my kids books can get a bookbub!


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

North Star Plotting said:


> I don't think this ever really happens. It's become a necessary ingredient for this type of mega-success, it seems.


Actually, there are six figure authors on these very boards who have never done a book bub ad. They are not the end all and be all. They just help a lot.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> She shared info in a way that seemed she wanted to inspire and help others. Some authors aren't sharing so much as bragging and rubbing in people's faces to make them feel inferior.


THIS. Sela has shown her selflessness on more than one occasion. For example, when she creates mock covers for authors, showing them what's possible, that's an incredibly selfless act.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> If you already know enough about how this writing gig works, then what _new_ information did you learn?
> 
> Inspiring? Absolutely.
> 
> Educational? I don't see it.


And what exactly do _you_ need for it to be educational?

Quite honestly, there comes a time in a writer's career that they have to find their own way of doing things. This isn't a one-size-fits-all kind of job. What one writer does to achieve success, another can emulate to the letter and not see it.

But what did I get out of it? That as much as I hate to admit it, bookbub and facebook ads can be lucrative. Is that new? No. Writers have been saying that for a while on here. But maybe, just _maybe_ it took _this time_ of seeing it in conjunction with Sela's chart for it to sink in and move my resistance in the right direction.

That's one of the things I got out of it.

Another thing I got out of it is the importance of moving forward with writing. In that, you can't stop after one book. You have to keep writing. Did I know this? Yes. But it is good to have that reinforced by showing in a numbered breakdown by approximate dates and how it shows on the final sales chart.

edit to add as I missed it when I hit quote the first time:



JessHayek69 said:


> Specific missing information:
> 
> 1)Covers
> 2)Writing style
> ...


Holy shit. Seriously? _Seriously?_ You want that spoonfed to you, even knowing that all of that is so subjective and individual to the writer, to the genre, to the story that it's almost unusable for anyone else?

Odd how I managed to get all that usable information out of what she posted due to my ability to _know the market for the genre she writes in_.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

stoney said:


> And what exactly do _you_ need for it to be educational?
> 
> Quite honestly, there comes a time in a writer's career that they have to find their own way of doing things. This isn't a one-size-fits-all kind of job. What one writer does to achieve success, another can emulate to the letter and not see it.
> 
> ...


Then we agree, it is absolutely _inspiring_, but not necessarily _educating_.

Examples of specific missing information for _Romance_:

1)Covers
2)Writing style
3)Story content
4)Exact book length
5)Tropes 
6)Blurbs
7)Level and amount of erotic content (if any)

Do you not think any of the above are important factors to know?


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

North Star Plotting said:


> I don't think this ever really happens. It's become a necessary ingredient for this type of mega-success, it seems.


When self-publishing was taboo, authors submitted to publishers. Publishers decided if an author's work was accepted or not.

If you're telling me that Bookbub is a "necessary ingredient" for mega-success, then you're telling me that Bookbub decides who will be mega successful and who will not.

If that's true, then that's upsetting.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> When self-publishing was taboo, authors submitted to publishers. Publishers decided if an author's work was accepted or not.
> 
> If you're telling me that Bookbub is a "necessary ingredient" for mega-success, then you're telling me that Bookbub decides who will be mega successful and who will not.
> 
> If that's true, then that's upsetting.


I wouldn't say _necessary_ but definitely an asset that should be fully utilized if at all possible (assuming they accept you)


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Then we agree, it is absolutely _inspiring_, but not necessarily _educating_.


No we don't agree. I think it was inspiring AND educational.

You don't.

Here's a news flash. You're not going to get spoonfed. Many authors on this board share their process and the one thing that usually comes out of those discussions is that it is individual to the author. There is no cookie cutter formula.

Sela has done her homework. She knows how to create covers (or where to get them done), she's done her homework on how to write blurbs. She's done her homework on what the sweetspot for length is according to her genre and her writing style.

A lot of this is trial and error and as an author you can not get away from that.



JessHayek69 said:


> Do you not think any of the above are important factors to know?


To know as a writer? Absolutely. To know those specifics as to what Sela has done in her career? No.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Lydniz said:


> You certainly don't need Bookbub to earn a decent income. Whether you can go stratospheric without it is another matter. I couldn't say, not being stratospheric.


To be clear, I'm not seeking mega-success. I have my goals, and I will reach them because I know they are reachable.

However, if Bookbub is truly necessary for "mega-success" every person who wants to self-publish needs to know that before they start. They need to know that mega-success is not possible without a Bookbub ad.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

stoney said:


> And what exactly do _you_ need for it to be educational?
> 
> Quite honestly, there comes a time in a writer's career that they have to find their own way of doing things. This isn't a one-size-fits-all kind of job. What one writer does to achieve success, another can emulate to the letter and not see it.
> 
> ...


I agree. This is why authors don't help more. She's a very successful author who took time away from writing to put this together and she should have done a better job? Wow. This might be the climate Amanda was referring to.


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## KinkyWriter (Mar 17, 2015)

Motivational!


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Sela, Thanks for posting this. I love to read success stories so I know it's possible to succeed (as in 'quit the day job').


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Jolie du Pre said:


> To be clear, I'm not seeking mega-success. I have my goals, and I will reach them because I know they are reachable.
> 
> However, if Bookbub is truly necessary for "mega-success" every person who wants to self-publish needs to know that before they start. They need to know that mega-success is not possible without a Bookbub ad.


And, tied to that, if Bookbub is the new gatekeeper to mega-success, new writers will come to believe that they have to write to BB's market; i.e., no novellas or short stories. Novels only, in specific genres, and no guarantee of being picked up for an ad. We've traded tradpub for Bookbub.

As an aside, congrats on your success, Sela. I would never share my dollar figures with the public, but good on you for being wide open with your results.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

stoney said:


> Here's a news flash. You're not going to get spoonfed.


Many authors have revealed everything that Sela did _plus_ all of their books.

Basically, when they do that, we have everything we need to know. The rest is up to us.

_Spoonfeeding_: provide (someone) with so much help or information that they do not need to think for themselves.

You still need to think for yourself to a point, but there are people (on these boards) who have admittedly reverse-engineered top-selling books and become best sellers themselves.

Good luck doing that without actual books to study


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

stoney said:


> No we don't agree. I think it was inspiring AND educational.
> 
> You don't.
> 
> ...


I agree with those 2 points. I said it before on here, that there is no one perfect secret formula. 
You can take advice but it's all about experimenting. Every author has different success no matter how much you listen to the advice and copy it

JessHayek69, Why not listen to some of the authors who have revealed their books and all the things you mentioned (covers, writing style etc). As I said, I have listened to Jasinda Wilder and followed her career from the beginning.

There are other authors on here who have broken down what they did e.g. Rosalind James


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## RachelAaron (Aug 8, 2014)

Holy crap this post!! So many numbers!!! I LOVE IT!!!

I just sent you a message about possibly interviewing you on my blog, Pretentious Title (http://thisblogisaploy.blogspot.com/) Please say yes! This is exactly the sort of numbers/story we've been wanting to do for ages but couldn't find!

Thank you so much for posting your info. This sort of openness and paying it forward is the #1 thing I love about the indie community!


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

mica said:


> JessHayek69, Why not listen to some of the authors who have revealed their books and all the things you mentioned (covers, writing style etc). As I said, I have listened to Jasinda Wilder and followed her career from the beginning.
> 
> There are other authors on here who have broken down what they did e.g. Rosalind James


Oh I definitely am in the process of doing that. And I am eternally grateful for all they revealed. Knowing that "you can get rich by writing" is inspiring, but seeing _exactly_ how is even better.


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## S.R. Booth (Oct 6, 2013)

Wow! Wow! and Wow! That's amazing. Thanks for sharing!


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Many authors have revealed everything that Sela did _plus_ all of their books.
> 
> Basically, when they do that, we have everything we need to know. The rest is up to us.
> 
> ...


I do it  and I actually have books to study.  It's called watching the top selling books on amazon. 

So I can reverse-engineer top selling books quite well on my own, thanks.  I don't need to shame authors into giving more than they're willing to share with me. I can find it on my own thanks, and that includes reading this board regularly to tease it out.

We all have access to the same information.

I just don't see the need to shame an author who has been very generous with her time, energy and knowledge to out who she is and what she writes specifically.

The thing about kboards is that bull-crap nonsense and bad advice gets called out early when other writers see it. She has not been called out. In fact, many have agreed with her and what she has had to say. I don't need her pen name or the titles to any of her books to believe that she has achieved success and I have to say I am sick to my back teeth of this 'prove it or shame' attitude that so many have towards successful authors.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> And, tied to that, if Bookbub is the new gatekeeper to mega-success, new writers will come to believe that they have to write to BB's market; i.e., no novellas or short stories. Novels only, in specific genres, and no guarantee of being picked up for an ad. We've traded tradpub for Bookbub.


Hopefully, Sela will weigh in with her thoughts on this. However, I know lots of authors are afraid to say anything but good things about Bookbub. So if Sela would like to PM me instead, that's fine. Thanks.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Boyd said:


> No, but I'm sure it helps. I've never gotten a bookbub.


You write novellas. So yeah, there's no way you could get a Bookbub ad.

Boyd, I hope you know how inspirational you are to me right now in my writing career as a novella author. I can't even begin to express it.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

stoney said:


> I do it  and I actually have books to study.  It's called watching the top selling books on amazon.
> 
> So I can reverse-engineer top selling books quite well on my own, thanks.  I don't need to shame authors into giving more than they're willing to share with me. I can find it on my own thanks, and that includes reading this board regularly to tease it out.
> 
> ...


So I could create an anonymous profile without any links to my books, list a spreadsheet claiming millions of sales, and you would believe it all without evidence?

And trying to shame others who want evidence to study makes my bones ache. Nobody should ever be shamed for wanting evidence.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

― Carl Sagan


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> You write novellas. So yeah, there's no way you could get a Bookbub ad.
> 
> Boyd, I hope you know how inspirational you are to me right now in my writing career as a novella author. I can't even begin to express it.


You and Boyd are inspirational to many of us who write novellas. And many of us who write. Your no nonsense advice is sorely needed at times. Keep on truckin'.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> So I could create an anonymous profile without any links to my books, list a spreadsheet claiming millions of sales, and you would believe it all without evidence?
> 
> And trying to shame others who want evidence to study makes my bones ache.


And this attitude is exactly why many authors don't want to reveal their names at all.

Congratulations.


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

Great post.
Thank you for sharing.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> So I could create an anonymous profile without any links to my books, list a spreadsheet claiming millions of sales, and you would believe it all without evidence?
> 
> And trying to shame others who want evidence to study makes my bones ache. Nobody should ever be shamed for wanting evidence.
> 
> ...


The difference is she's been around awhile and this is not the first time she tried to help. Just the other day I believe it was she who offered to pay for an author's promotion because they couldn't afford it. She earned her credibility. No we wouldn't believe just anyone. I hope she doesn't leave the boards like all those other writers who tried to help but got ran off by these types of comments.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

stoney said:


> You and Boyd are inspirational to many of us who write novellas. And many of us who write. Your no nonsense advice is sorely needed at times. Keep on truckin'.


 Thanks!

We novella authors can reach our goals if we create a plan that can work. As Boyd posted in another thread:

"Write in a series. Release predictably. Make sure your stories are page turners.

Other than that... editing, covers, tropes, style."


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## Neologist (Mar 11, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> And, tied to that, if Bookbub is the new gatekeeper to mega-success, new writers will come to believe that they have to write to BB's market; i.e., no novellas or short stories. Novels only, in specific genres, and no guarantee of being picked up for an ad. We've traded tradpub for Bookbub.


I don't think it's quite that bad. Specifically, I don't think we've traded tradpub for Bookbub.

Prior to self-publishing taking off, traditional publishers were just about the only way to make a living at all writing fiction. Now, lots and lots of people are making money without the gatekeeper of a publisher. Even if Bookbub is necessary to become a mega-success (and I'm not sure of even that), it isn't anything like the kind of gatekeeper that traditional publishers were.

Honestly, from what I've seen (albeit entirely from the outside), Bookbub seems pretty awesome. It's an incredibly powerful advertising service; they're just picky about who advertises with them. But they don't keep other people from publishing, or even being successful. They just help the people who _do_ advertise with them.

Either way, though, thanks for sharing this, Sela! And congrats on the success!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

I'm going to end the discussion on whether or not Sela needs to or should reveal her pen names and/or book titles..  She doesn't.  EDIT:  To clarify:  there's nothing wrong with asking/suggesting that information be provided.  But members are allowed to post anonymously here.  Belaboring the point only derails a thread others find useful. /edit.

If the information she provided isn't sufficient for you, Jess, you've stated that.  Move on.  There are other threads by members who do post their names and books that apparently you find more useful.  This argument is derailing a thread that many others do find useful.  Any future discussion in this thread about Sela's and others' decisions to be anonymous will be deleted.

If you have any questions, please PM me rather than post in the thread as I'd like the conversation to return to a discussion with Sela, if she returns.  I'm going to review the posts to see if anything needs to be pruned.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## countwordsmith (Aug 13, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> You write novellas. So yeah, there's no way you could get a Bookbub ad.
> 
> Boyd, I hope you know how inspirational you are to me right now in my writing career as a novella author. I can't even begin to express it.


My romance career was built on novellas. I almost never wrote longer books, and when they were longer, they were always under 50k. My usual range was 20k to 30k. One of my romances could make me $10k the first month before KU1. I think erotic romance is the easiest genre to make a living, and that the other genres are harder. That's my opinion.

I do not under any circumstances believe you have to have a bookbub to have success. I've never had one.

Besides, look at Sela's spreadsheet again. She sold $2400 and $2600 before she ever had a bookbub. That's nice money! She could have continued to build on that without the bookbub. A lot of people don't make $2600 a month on their job.

Congrats, Sela.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks so much for sharing, Sela. Your post is helpful and inspiring. While I don't need or want you to 'come out,' if you ever do, I'll be buying. Your disposition on these boards is admirable.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Neologist said:


> Honestly, from what I've seen (albeit entirely from the outside), Bookbub seems pretty awesome. It's an incredibly powerful advertising service; they're just picky about who advertises with them. But they don't keep other people from publishing, or even being successful. They just help the people who _do_ advertise with them.


Bookbub doesn't "seem pretty awesome." They ARE awesome. In fact, they're more than awesome.

However, MOST authors, even those with good covers, good content, 100 reviews, and so forth, WILL NOT be accepted by Bookbub. People new to self-publishing need to understand that.


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## Rachel Anne (Apr 18, 2015)

Thank you for putting yourself out there and sharing your experience, Sela.
This is really informative and helpful -- and, of course, congratulations! I'm really happy for you!


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## Allyson J. (Nov 26, 2014)

Thank you, Sela, for sharing. Your experience and advice is appreciated, and is valuable. I love it when authors share numbers. It is inspiring.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

countwordsmith said:


> My romance career was built on novellas. I almost never wrote longer books, and when they were longer, they were always under 50k. My usual range was 20k to 30k. One of my romances could make me $10k the first month before KU1. I think erotic romance is the easiest genre to make a living, and that the other genres are harder. That's my opinion.
> 
> I do not under any circumstances believe you have to have a bookbub to have success. I've never had one.
> 
> ...


Ture, and thank you for sharing your information. Yes, Sela's smart publishing approach brought in what I also consider good money before Bookbub. And yes, she could have continue without Bookbub and done fine.


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## ashestoasher (Jun 29, 2015)

Very motivational.  Thank you so much for sharing!


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## Cookie Monster (Apr 6, 2014)

If someone wants actionable information on the bestsellers in a certain genre, read the books on the bestseller list and take notes or outline the book to see how they did it. If you want to know what covers sell in a genre, study up. Same for blurbs and tropes and book length.

This is work most good sellers have done. I'm sure Sela has done it, too. The specifics of her books would only provide information on her subgenre and her audience. That information would only be useful to people within her genre, and even then, audience, author voice, characters and plots will vary enough that it would be impossible to say, "this exact combination of elements is responsible for Sela's success, and anyone can replicate it."

It doesn't work like that. If it did, every book the Big 5 puts out would be a bestseller. Everyone who chased a hot trend would sell tons of books. But we all know some books take off and some books don't.

The best anyone can do if they want to sell well is to study their genre, write great books that hit the genre's tropes and preferred length, have a unique author voice audiences want to read, and give the books good covers, blurbs, and promotions.

KBoards can help with some of those things. There's great information here. But some of success is hard work and timing, and the terrain of self publishing is constantly changing. Trying to duplicate someone's exact path to success is likely to be an exercise in frustration.

This is a great post, Sela. Inspiring and educational. Thanks for sharing!

_As I said in my post, posts continuing the discussion of anonymity vs revealing identity will be pruned. --Betsy_


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## Writer&#039;s Block (Oct 29, 2014)

Thanks for sharing that Sela. I find these posts by yourself, No Cat, etc., to be very inspiring and motivational to a noob like myself. It's validation that a (very) good living can be made from writing fiction these days. 

I also get the sense that for yourself and others it's also validation that the self-publishing route is the right one. Rather that feeling like a failure with a ragged manuscript collecting dust in a drawer somewhere you had the strength to say 'well if the trad publishers don't want me then I'll do it myself.'

Bookbub ads are irrelevant, it's attitude that matters. All else comes from that.


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## Clementine (Jun 12, 2015)

Thanks for sharing such a detailed accounting and rundown of how your career has grown. It's fascinating and really inspiring. I appreciate your willingness to share such private information to let others know what is possible. (Also, thanks for being so kind and generous to folks in other threads. It's really nice to see.)


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

This has been an interesting thread.  I've got to get to work now, but thank you, Sela, for sharing your numbers.  As I stated earlier in this thread, you've done some selfless acts that have touched me.  

I hope to give back to the community in some way after I reach my goals.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

This is really inspiring, Sela, especially as someone who's just realized that romance is where their writing heart lies.  (Is that right? Lies? Is it lays? I will forever confuse the two. Sigh.)

I've been trying to study top-selling books in my subgenres (contemporary, NA, lesbian, fantasy/paranormal) but sometimes it's hard to find them around the...mountain of erotica. But.  I'm learning! And enjoying writing again.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Cookie Monster said:


> If someone wants actionable information on the bestsellers in a certain genre, read the books on the bestseller list and take notes or outline the book to see how they did it.


Agreed 99%.

But we don't necessarily know the details of their success. Authors don't normally attach spreadsheets with detailed earnings reports and their marketing strategies over the last few years with their books. So I don't think "Just pick a best seller and study it" is always the right route to follow. Maybe, maybe not.


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## pwtucker (Feb 12, 2011)

Thanks for taking the time to write this post, Selah! I find these posts very inspirational, in that they demonstrate that hard work, perseverance, and consistency can result in excellent results. Add a little BookBub magic, some savvy marketing know-how, and you've got a recipe for success. Oh, all that, plus the ability to write addictive novels


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## VLH (Jun 18, 2015)

Awesome Sela, just awesome! Congrats and thanks for sharing!!!


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## kerie1974 (Aug 13, 2015)

This was very inspiring to a newbie like myself. Thank you


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## Mala (Apr 5, 2015)

Thanks for posting this, Sela. I read this thread in the morning over breakfast before going to work in my full time job which I hope is not going to be my forever job. Your post gave me reassurance that it doesn't need to be my forever job. 

It gave me immense motivation to push on with my writing. It's a lesson in persistence and consistency, and I have no doubt that with whatever Sela's published, she's succeeded in part because she writes well and understands her audience.

I don't believe there's any magic "story formula" that's going to sell books. Even the most tired tropes can turn to gold in the hands of a skilled writer, and will sell books if an author understands their readership and genre well enough to satisfy the readers. Respect and entertain your readership, and they will respond. A sprinkling of originality doesn't hurt either. As a reader, I'm always looking for something familiar, but different. And if one somehow manages to find that elusive vein of gold and set a trend within a genre, becoming a runaway success (as E.L James did with revised fanfiction), then more power to them.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Thank you for posting this, Sela, and for your willingness to step in and help others. You're one of WC's rock stars because of that attitude even more than for your incredible success. As someone who has just begun to venture into the romance genre this month and is scared spitless about it, I can't tell you how inspiring it was to come in this morning and find this.


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## TaxationIsTheft (Apr 15, 2015)

Thank you for sharing this, Sela. Also? I adore that spreadsheet. It's so simple and yet gives you an excellent snapshot view of sales numbers.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Congratulations! 

Thanks for sharing your numbers. I've made the decision that once I've hit publish on my last two supernatural series, I'm switching to writing sweet romance. My lone sweet romance sells well when I advertise it, and romance seems to be where the most voracious readers are.

Your chart also shows the power of Bookbub, and the error of only relying on Ammy when one algo change by them can seriously hurt your income overnight.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Lydniz said:


> I had a Bookbub once, but I was earning well over $5k a month before I did. It's easy to get hung up on Bookbub, but it is absolutely not the only route to success.


Bookbub is also not a guaranteed route to success. My Dog Aliens books have had two Bookbub ads. They sold well for a month after each one, and then they slowly sank down the charts again.


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

Thanks for sharing!  So motivational!!


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Agreed 99%.
> 
> But we don't necessarily know the details of their success. Authors don't normally attach spreadsheets with detailed earnings reports and their marketing strategies over the last few years with their books. So I don't think "Just pick a best seller and study it" is always the right route to follow. Maybe, maybe not.


And I'm going to ask, why do the specifics matter?

Here's the thing.

Her marketing strategy is not and will not be the same as other authors on the board. It is usually very dependent on their drives, their goals, their offerings at the time.

So, it's very individual. Studying one only gives you data for that one author for that time in their career, during that time when marketing through those channels are effective.

That can change on a dime. Next week, next month, it can change and something new will rise up.

How did she accomplish it? I would suspect a combination of things (although I don't want to speak for her).

* reading what other authors have suggested has worked for them
* reading up on what some authors _have_ laid out as strategies that worked
* watching the market, reading threads and learning how to suss out the small ingots of gold in all the threads of discussion and then looking at her wants, needs and desires to come up with a plan.

What she did last week, last year may not work now.

Case in point, BookBub.

When BookBub first came out, it was a little easier to get in. The gains were a lot larger. The whole thing was wide open. Fast forward today and it's not the same process or the same BookBub or even the same results.

Case in point, bknights on fiverr.

It used to be the biggest hottest thing. Now its effectiveness isn't as strong as it used to be. This all in the course of one year.

Case in point, Facebook.

When advertising on Facebook in the past, it wasn't giving great returns. Many authors were having more miss than hit results. That turned around, a few authors have actually put out _specific information_ which I would wager Sela had read up on/watched and applied it to her (then) current situation.

That situation, even 6 months later, is not the same.

The trends are discussed all the time on this board. All the time. Those trends change over time and those, too, get discussed.

So one particular author, doing well at a particular time in their writing life, with a particular backlist _could_ lay all that out there for you. In fact, a few on this board have. Having one more data point is just that. One more data point.

But for your own needs, it is only showing trends, not anything that can be replicated with the same results.

Even now, in reading some of the longer threads where authors have talked in specific detail on their path to success over the past year or two, I can spot what is now outdated information. What worked for them when the thread started isn't as effective as it is now. They even say so in their own threads.


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## Jake Kerr (Aug 6, 2014)

Well, I found her post quite helpful. Her release schedule and the impact on earnings alone was a good data point for me. That's insight backed up by hard data.

I really don't understand why someone has to criticize that something wasn't helpful _to them_ when others are finding it helpful. Maybe we're not all geniuses and earning the huge figures that Jess is and thus we need more basic info than she does. I know that I do.

So why shoot it down?


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## Prince (Aug 28, 2015)

Hi Congrats Sela,I am absolutely thrilled, you are truly inspiring love the feeling,


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I think it's one of the most generous and helpful posts that I've seen here....also filled with specifics, what she did when.

I think anyone looking for a proven formula or key to hitting certain levels is likely to be disappointed. The are no guarantees with this business. It's very subjective. I think focusing on writing a really good book, the best you are capable of, in a genre that has hungry readers is a good strategy. 

Edited to add, and once you've done that, go through the many threads here on how to market your book, what has worked for others, and test out different things until you find what works well for you and your books. There's no one size fits all approach, marketing varies by genre. I have learned so much from this community. There's gold here, if you take the time to discover it.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

That's amazing, Sela! And based on your posts here, I have to say, this success couldn't have happened to a more supportive person. I'm always awed by your compassion and generosity when struggling authors need help here. 

I have been curious about your pen name and books before, and wondered why you didn't have them in a signature, but respect your wish to remain anonymous; like others have said though, I'd be among the KBoarders wanting to check out your Amazon store   (ETA: I have a bad habit of posting on long threads without reading all of the comments; I only read the first page and posted this because I want to READ your books  )

Wishing you continued success!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

BookBub is also not particularly expensive, compared to its typical ROI, so I'm not even sure why people get so up-in-arms over the fact that BB is key to many authors' breakout success. It's not like it costs tens of thousands. It's at most a couple hundred bucks for a free book--maybe three hundred. If that's not in your budget yet, hold a garage sale or babysit for a month or mow your neighbors' lawns. Or proofread a bunch of other authors' books and catch all their typos for them. There are ways to raise the money for a BB ad.

BookBub is by far not the most expensive advertising I've ever done.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Agreed 99%.
> 
> But we don't necessarily know the details of their success. Authors don't normally attach spreadsheets with detailed earnings reports and their marketing strategies over the last few years with their books. So I don't think "Just pick a best seller and study it" is always the right route to follow. Maybe, maybe not.


You know it's not even about the specifics of this particular case.

Partial information is provided ... more of a hypothetical example rather than something actualized.

A picture tells a 1000 words, and pretty much the info here is just a caption.

It would be a mistake though to assume that some success threads are there to teach, rather than just 'inspire'.

You just take little bits of information from lots of different places, and become your own teacher


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

wow, thanks for sharing!


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

ElHawk said:


> BookBub is also not particularly expensive, compared to its typical ROI, so I'm not even sure why people get so up-in-arms over the fact that BB is key to many authors' breakout success. It's not like it costs tens of thousands. It's at most a couple hundred bucks for a free book--maybe three hundred. If that's not in your budget yet, hold a garage sale or babysit for a month or mow your neighbors' lawns. Or proofread a bunch of other authors' books and catch all their typos for them. There are ways to raise the money for a BB ad.
> 
> BookBub is by far not the most expensive advertising I've ever done.


I don't think the issue is its cost, but rather the growing difficulty of being able to get a promotion through them.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks . . . . as I think has been mentioned: if people choose to be anonymous, that is their right. Further posts questioning a person's veracity based on the fact that they choose to be anonymous will be deleted.  No one here has to have 'credentials' to be allowed an opinion. Nor do they have to have a certain number of posts. 

If you find the OP helpful, great. If you don't, great.  There are one or two people in this thread who should probably move on to some other discussion.

Thanks . . . . .


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> I don't think the issue is its cost, but rather the growing difficulty of being able to get a promotion through them.


Yeah, sometimes I think most writers would get just as far sending an unsolicited query letter to Double Day.


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## Katherine Stark (Jul 30, 2015)

Thank you so much for sharing, Sela! Very inspiring and definitely shows the power of perseverance.


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## BeachB (Sep 3, 2013)

Thank you for your awesome share.  It is very inspirational/motivating and I am thrilled for your success.  May we all have the same in our very near future!!


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

Sela, thanks for sharing. I find your career very inspiring. I only started fiction writing 4 years ago, and it's from reading abour careers like yours that made me decide to give self publishing a try. Thank you for sharing.


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## Gone Girl (Mar 7, 2015)

We miss you, Harvey Chute.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

The reason I don't reveal my pen name is that there is a contingent among some people who take delight in drive by 1 star reviews and up-voting bad reviews / down voting good reviews.

I'm not going to post my books for that reason. However, I was going for inspirational and to show that I've had ups and downs, have tried different things, and some have worked and some haven't. Plus, I've been lucky by collaborating with people who helped my career, had good people providing me services like book covers and editing, and have read a lot of great advice from many of the pundits.

Here are a few screen caps of my income from my Book Report dashboard, revealing as much as I like to reveal. I know doing this won't satisfy some critics, who want to see my books themselves so they can dissect them and probably find them wanting in some way... And I'm sure they ARE wanting in some way, and could probably be criticized for many things, but I won't because I already get 1 star reviews from readers. My star rating is high - 4+ stars on all my books, and I would prefer to keep it that way.

I would really like to help with specifics, but I will tell you that I did study the best selling books in my genre, re: major tropes and beats in the books. I actually did analysis of the top sellers in contemporary / erotic romance when I decided to write the series that made me the big money. Seriously - I drew up spreadsheets, trying to understand the structure of a bestselling novel, where the rising action was, and what kind of things people liked. I tried to add my own spin and personality in my books -- made them the kind of book I wanted to read. That's all I did.

I know that sounds kind of airy-fairy because writing an actual book is a whole different thing than analyzing one but in the end, I sat down with an idea for a couple of characters and a situation and the possible complications and wrote. I took a leap of faith that I could do it, and I wrote that book in about 45 days. Had it edited and released it with no idea how it would do since it was a new genre for me.

I think that's all any of us can do.

This is my Amazon income so far this year:



This is my Amazon income from last year:



This is a screen cap of my current D2D dashboard:



This is my royalties by month from D2D for this year:



This is the royalty chart for my sales from April of last year, which is the most I can post using D2D:



I also sell via Smashwords, but their dashboard doesn't give you nifty summary options: (hint hint to Mark Coker)



I also sell via Google Play and directly through Kobo now, but the numbers aren't worth trying to capture because they are under $5000 so far this year.

Is Bookbub essential -- not to sell books. There are a a lot of other promotional sites and you can always promote on blogs and on Facebook and Twitter. But for those who make it in, Bookbub can make a good year fantastic and help you reach a wider audience.

I understand the frustration people feel about Bookbub. It took me two years to get a free Bookbub for my first series. But it was worth the wait and numerous tries.

FWIW, I just got turned down for a 99c Bookbub for a book in my bestselling series. 

But I'll keep trying.


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## wannabeauthor (Aug 8, 2015)

Thank you Sela, your posts - and those from others like you who share their experience - give me hope and inspiration.

I don't care whether you chose to share your pen names, word counts or anything else. Going by reputation and your useful posts I can chose to take posts like this for what they're worth: advice from someone who owes me nothing but freely shares something that they didn't have to.

Thanks again!


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## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

WOW!! Congratulations and thanks so much for sharing this!


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela,

Thank you for the additional data, it is definitely inspiring. For the record, not all "critics" want to see books in order to bash them. Some of us are genuinely interested in knowing exactly what sells.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Sela,
> 
> Thank you for the additional data, it is definitely inspiring. For the record, not all "critics" want to see books in order to bash them. Some of us are genuinely interested in knowing exactly what sells.


All you need to do is what I did -- I went to the bestseller list on Amazon, bought the top books that seemed to have legs, and read them, thought about how I would do my own take on the genre and category, and plotted out a book. Then I wrote it.

IOW, I did the legwork and the brain work to figure out what was working at the time. This was two years ago so what is selling now is slightly different than what worked before.

I know that perhaps you are not out to bash. I understand the desire to analyze and figure out what is working. I can't know before hand who will and who won't bash.

Sorry!

I have seen too many authors with good sales who post their books get bashed and attacked and 1-starred to do it.

But I wanted to do what I could for inspirational and educational (to a point) purposes because I have learned so much from other writers.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> BookBub is also not particularly expensive, compared to its typical ROI, so I'm not even sure why people get so up-in-arms over the fact that BB is key to many authors' breakout success. It's not like it costs tens of thousands. It's at most a couple hundred bucks for a free book--maybe three hundred. If that's not in your budget yet, hold a garage sale or babysit for a month or mow your neighbors' lawns. Or proofread a bunch of other authors' books and catch all their typos for them. There are ways to raise the money for a BB ad.
> 
> BookBub is by far not the most expensive advertising I've ever done.


The cost of a BookBub ad has never been an issue for *me* and is not part of my point, at all.

~~~

Thank you, Sela, for sharing additional data. Congratulations on your success!


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Sela said:


> All you need to do is what I did -- I went to the bestseller list on Amazon, bought the top books that seemed to have legs, and read them, thought about how I would do my own take on the genre and category, and plotted out a book. Then I wrote it.
> 
> IOW, I did the legwork and the brain work to figure out what was working at the time. This was two years ago so what is selling now is slightly different than what worked before.
> 
> ...


Yeah, don't put your books out there. It's not just that people will one-star and up/down votes. Someone on here gave one of my books a negative review. I didn't see it because I don't look but a handful of people took joy in messaging me to tell me this person hated my book. It's a hassle.


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## Michael Parnell (Aug 25, 2014)

Great post! Thanks for sharing your experience!


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Yeah, don't put your books out there. It's not just that people will one-star and up/down voters. Someone on here gave one of my books a negative review. I didn't see it because I don't look but a handful of people took joy in messaging me to tell me this person hated my book. It's a hassle.


Amanda,

On the flip side, do you think that revealing your books may have also attracted new readers who read them and enjoyed them, and left positive reviews?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Amanda,
> 
> On the flip side, do you think that revealing your books may have also attracted new readers who read them and enjoyed them, and left positive reviews?


Honestly? Not really. Maybe a handful. I think all off my ratings were slightly better before I put my books in my sig. It is what it is.


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## 80593 (Nov 1, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Some of us are genuinely interested in knowing exactly what sells.


Luckily, Amazon is happy to provide you with that information. They even label the lists "Best Sellers" to make them easy to find.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

PamelaKelley said:


> I think it's one of the most generous and helpful posts that I've seen here ... also filled with specifics, what she did when.
> 
> I think anyone looking for a proven formula or key to hitting certain levels is likely to be disappointed. There are no guarantees with this business. It's very subjective. I think focusing on writing a really good book, the best you are capable of, in a genre that has hungry readers is a good strategy.
> 
> ...


What she said. (Bolding mine.)

And no, Pamela Kelley and I are not related!


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## Kee (Jun 3, 2013)

Joe Konrath's blog in April 2012 I'd like to read the link to that inspiring post if someone has it.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Kudos, Sela, and thanks for the incredible generosity in sharing....and taking the time to provide the strategies and mileposts that helped get you where you are today.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Thank you, Sela. Like many others, I find these kinds of posts truly inspirational. Well done! And may your success continue and the graphs always trend upward.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jen Rasmussen said:


> Luckily, Amazon is happy to provide you with that information. They even label the lists "Best Sellers" to make them easy to find.


Exactly! That's what I did for my second series, but not my first.

I wrote my paranormal romance based on ideas that were brewing in my head for a few years, not based on the bestsellers. Instead it was based on a long-standing love of vampires and gothic books that I read in my teens. I didn't study the bestseller's list for paranormal romance or vampire romance and guess what? My series didn't sell all that well at all, although it probably had sales numbers that many would be happy with. When I set out to self-publish it was after making a 5-year plan to become a full-time author so I could spend the rest of my life doing what I did for free -- write fiction. I wrote fanfic for several years while I worked my day job as a planner / analyst / researcher in a variety of fandoms and I loved it and wished I could do it for pay. So I decided to try. 

In my first series, I broke some genre conventions, was plot heavy, took too long to get to the HEA, had cliff hangers, etc. I got roundly criticized by those in the know. So I figured I wouldn't do THAT again LOL although I have a very loyal readership for that series and have recently been able to reach a wider audience with it in spite of all my mistakes due to advertising on FB and FINALLY getting a free Bookbub for the series starter. But it's still a quirky series with flaws.

For my second series, I DID study the bestsellers lists on Amazon to see what was selling in contemporary / erotic and new adult romance. I found a couple of very well selling series that I personally loved and decided to analyze them to see what it was that made them so good and what pleased their readership. Then I applied that to my own ideas, which I always get when I read a book -- what would I do differently? What would I prefer as a reader? I have my own personal interests and ideas and I used them to craft a plot and story arc and set of characters, and tried to publish the series over the course of a year so I would miss the dread 90-day cliff. Luckily, I was able to get Bookbubs and book bloggers who helped get the word out for my books and find new readers.

Bookbub is very powerful -- there is NO doubt about that. I have no idea what criteria they use but it must come down to reviews, rank, and some kind of taste or prediction about what will sell well.

I doubt I will get another paid Bookbub promo for my paid books. I have this feeling that I am stuck with free promos every 6 months, but the free promos have so outdone the paid that I will be happy if I can keep getting free promos.

While my income has increased and increased, I feel a bit stressed that at any time, things can change and I could start going down down down. I have so many ideas for new series that I hope I can keep writing books that sell and please my existing readership.

If I could keep them happy, I believe I could be in this for the long run.  That is my hope.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Kee said:


> Joe Konrath's blog in April 2012 I'd like to read the link to that inspiring post if someone has it.


http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/01/reality-check.html


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Jen Rasmussen said:


> Luckily, Amazon is happy to provide you with that information. They even label the lists "Best Sellers" to make them easy to find.


Good call. I will check it out!

Do they also list detailed financial reports going back three years for each author? Sales versus borrows? Marketing strategies?

If "_knowing_ what sells" is simply "go look at Amazon best sellerz", and that is all that it takes.... then why are any us on these boards reading and posting questions?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> Good call. I will check it out!
> 
> Do they also list detailed financial reports going back three years for each author? Sales versus borrows? Marketing strategies?
> 
> If "_knowing_ what sells" is simply "go look at Amazon best sellerz", and that is all that it takes.... then why are any us on these boards reading and posting questions?


Because knowing what sells isn't the same as writing/selling what sells.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00-06:00&updated-max=2012-02-01T00:00:00-06:00&max-results=11


I was reading an article about Amanda Hocking which directed me to Konrath's website and I started reading and kept reading. What a train of links -- I read an article about JK Rowling's difficulty getting Harry Potter published, and her success as a woman author, then I found an article about Amanda Hocking and her million books sold. Then I found Joe Konrath!

The rest is history. 

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jan/12/amanda-hocking-self-publishing


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## AlpacaPicnic (Aug 12, 2015)

Sela, all of your posts in this thread have been inspiring and incredibly educational, at least for me. My takeaway - study your business. Know what works in your business, be willing to take risks when necessary but have a plan and educate yourself.

Thank you.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

JessHayek69 said:


> Do they also list detailed financial reports going back three years for each author? Sales versus borrows? Marketing strategies?


You are wasting your time looking back three years. If you are so keen to learn a formula you need the one that works in mid-2015, not what worked in 2012. You do not want to study someone who is long-term successful because that success breeds success, builds momentum, and brings a ton of loyal readers in its trail. You want to study the recent breakouts if you want to become one of them. You might also consider that a lot of readers lurk on the Writers Café and may not take too kindly to be objectified as an ingredient in a formula.

Sela, great thread, and kudos on recovering well from negatives that ku does.


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## SkyScribe (Aug 18, 2014)

LilyBLily said:


> I'm finding the road to making a profit is very different compared to what you and others encountered when starting several years ago. But that's okay. At least I'm on the road.


This can't be emphasized enough. While it's great, inspiring, and helpful to have stories like these about how people are doing, the bare bones of it is that people starting out now will have to uncover a different path to success. The opportunities will be different, as will the challenges.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Sela said:


> I would really like to help with specifics, but I will tell you that I did study the best selling books in my genre, re: major tropes and beats in the books. I actually did analysis of the top sellers in contemporary / erotic romance when I decided to write the series that made me the big money. Seriously - I drew up spreadsheets, trying to understand the structure of a bestselling novel, where the rising action was, and what kind of things people liked. I tried to add my own spin and personality in my books -- made them the kind of book I wanted to read. That's all I did.
> 
> I know that sounds kind of airy-fairy because writing an actual book is a whole different thing than analyzing one but in the end, I sat down with an idea for a couple of characters and a situation and the possible complications and wrote. I took a leap of faith that I could do it, and I wrote that book in about 45 days. Had it edited and released it with no idea how it would do since it was a new genre for me.
> 
> I think that's all any of us can do.


Sela....this is the really important response to those who demand more specifics. It's not any one author that's most important to study and learn from, it's the collection of authors who top, even dominate, the bestseller ranks in their genre.

It is a mistake for striving writers to look at any one single author as a guide to success. Individual authors succeed for very individual reasons, especially the outliers. But if there are a number of authors doing very, very well in a given sub genre, then it's far more likely that there are some common elements/tropes/structures/styles among them that someone wanting to write in that sub genre can learn from. Any new writer thinking they can learn the road to success by dissecting only one author is going to miss it.

Again, thank you for taking the incredible amount of time and energy to first post, then respond so generously to those demanding more. It is so in line with your consistent thoughtful and generous presence on the boards here. We're lucky to have you!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

SkyScribe said:


> This can't be emphasized enough. While it's great, inspiring, and helpful to have stories like these about how people are doing, the bare bones of it is that people starting out now will have to uncover a different path to success. The opportunities will be different, as will the challenges.


Yes, that is key. The market changes, reader taste changes, strategies change, but there are some things that remain the same:

Write a page-turning book that gives readers what they are looking for, do it again and again, learn the market and how to reach it, and be as professional as you can. Always try to keep pleasing those readers, and by that I don't mean pander to them -- you can try to do more and even challenge them but please them by giving them a book they don't want to put down.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Oh so inspiring. Thank you for posting this, Sela! And congratulations on your success. You have worked hard and deserve every bit of it.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Sela said:


> I was reading an article about Amanda Hocking which directed me to Konrath's website and I started reading and kept reading. What a train of links -- I read an article about JK Rowling's difficulty getting Harry Potter published, and her success as a woman author, then I found an article about Amanda Hocking and her million books sold. Then I found Joe Konrath!
> 
> The rest is history.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jan/12/amanda-hocking-self-publishing


I followed that same set of links back in 2012. Amanda Hocking said to read Konrath's entire blog, and I did, but I haven't been nearly so successful as you. 

Just goes to show one size does not fit all and there is no magic formula. Instead, there is talent, research, and butt-in-chair time writing. In that vein, I changed my link above to this one, which tells Konrath's story concisely and really is inspiring.

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/01/reality-check.html

And Sela, do NOT let your peers pressure you into posting your books or revealing your pen names. Thank you so much for all the help you've offered, but don't let them pressure you. Shame on them for trying.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I made six figures before I ever got a Bookbub. I've only had one, and while it was worth probably an extra 15k in sales, I was making very good money way before it. Bookbub is fun when you can get it, but hardly the only way to be successful. Geez.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

On the current travails of getting a BookBub ad....

I always think of a cartoon I clipped from the back of Writer's Digest some half million years ago.  It's a whole page of individual panels "extolling" the writer's life. My favorite panel was the guy in his bathrobe with a mug of coffee in one hand and the phone in the other.  "Lately, editors have taken to calling to reject whatever I'm going to be working on that day."

Fortunately, these days it's just the ad, not the book!


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I made six figures before I ever got a Bookbub. I've only had one, and while it was worth probably an extra 15k in sales, I was making very good money way before it. Bookbub is fun when you can get it, but hardly the only way to be successful. Geez.


I agree with Annie. BookBubs are great, but they're not the only way. I essentially do a BookBub every six months. I do a first in series freebie because I've found the tail is much longer on a free book, although I probably am going to try a paid omnibus at some point, so that should be taken with a grain of salt. I've workedy pen name into the top 300 authors in less than a year without one BookBub. In fact, I think I've only ever run two ENT ads for that name since its inception.
I would never pretend BookBub isn't a great asset. It's really not necessary, though.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> I followed that same set of links back in 2012. Amanda Hocking said to read Konrath's entire blog, and I did, but I haven't been nearly so successful as you.
> 
> Just goes to show one size does not fit all and there is no magic formula. Instead, there is talent, research, and butt-in-chair time writing. In that vein, I changed my link above to this one, which tells Konrath's story concisely and really is inspiring.
> 
> ...


Yes that post did it. I read his blog until my eyes practically bled and was determined to self-publish and give it a good try. Thanks to Joe for his always inspiring blog! I wonder how many successful indies can point to his blog as their moment of truth when they decided to go after the dream?


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Sela said:


> Yes that post did it. I read his blog until my eyes practically bled and was determined to self-publish and give it a good try. Thanks to Joe for his always inspiring blog! I wonder how many successful indies can point to his blog as their moment of truth when they decided to go after the dream?


*raises hand*

It just took me several years AFTER reading it to decide to try.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Sela, just wanted to pop in and say thank you so much for sharing your information and for being so gracious in this thread and in all your posts.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Monique said:


> Because knowing what sells isn't the same as writing/selling what sells.


THIS! Knowing what sells isn't the same as writing something that readers want to read. Every book is different. Knowing and having a plan is a great first step, but all the work is left to do. So studying what works for others in your genres etc is great (and I'd say pretty key to helping with success), but you still have to write books people want to read and get them in front of those people. There's no shortcut.

Thanks for sharing your info, Sela.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I made six figures before I ever got a Bookbub. I've only had one, and while it was worth probably an extra 15k in sales, I was making very good money way before it. Bookbub is fun when you can get it, but hardly the only way to be successful. Geez.


Same here. I had my first Bookbub in November 2013, the month I decided to quit my day job because I had made enough that year to justify it. Not six figures but high 5 figures -- probably around $75K by then. So you can definitely make life changing money without Bookbub. Bookbub is great but I suspect it is being taken over by the Big 5... They would be smart to buy it out. Wish a collection of indie authors could!


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## Julz (Oct 30, 2014)

Congratulations!! Looks like tons of hard work and changing or adjusting strategy when you wanted or needed to  Thank you so much for sharing!!


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Examples of specific missing information for _Romance_:
> 
> 1)Covers
> 2)Writing style
> ...


That information IS available, you just have to get off your backside and pull it together for yourself. Here's how:
1. Go to Amazon.com
2. Navigate to the top 100 list of the romance category you want to analyse
3. Buy books in the 1 - 10 positions (or 20 if you want a bigger sample)
4. Read those best selling romance books
5. Open a spreadsheet and for each book make comments about items 1-7 on your list.

No one is going to spoon feed that information to you, but it is absolutely out there, you just have to put some work in to compile it.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Just for the record, Patterson doesn't give a road map either.  Although the class was excellent and very informative.

Not to speak for Jesse and not to excuse the level of snark that's come across in her posts on this thread (which I found unacceptable), but I suspect that she's struggling right now because she's not seeing the sales she expected writing in a hot genre and with professional covers and doesn't know how to fix that.  Jesse, if you're open to it, start one of those, "tear me apart, here's my book" threads and let people attack everything from blurb to look inside.  (Although I seem to recall there being a thread somewhat like that a while back that was telling you that the books weren't meeting or weren't going to meet genre expectations?)


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> If "_knowing_ what sells" is simply "go look at Amazon best sellerz", and that is all that it takes.... then why are any us on these boards reading and posting questions?


And if that is ALL you've gotten out of the dozens and dozens of threads on this board...I got nothing left to say.


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## Susanne123 (Jan 9, 2014)

Sela, many many thanks for posting here. Love the growth in your chart, and that you've shared it with those who wish to read the positive in it -- growth over time your way. 

I haven't published yet, but every time I read a post that's similar to yours, there's a surge in my heart because it can be done.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

> Examples of specific missing information for Romance:
> 
> 1)Covers
> 2)Writing style
> ...


I did this for the top selling books in contemporary and erotic romance when I set out to write one, interestingly enough.

As to my own books, here's some more info:

1)Covers - professionally done and branded, same couple in three different poses, with same font and general layout

2)Writing style - I tend to have a lot of dialogue. Told from heroine's point of view. Longer chapters. Tried to end each chapter on a bit of a high point or low point so people would want to read on to find out what happens next.

3)Story content - romance - they meet by accident, amusing coincidence, instant attraction, she fights, he tries to convince, they get together, obstacles arise, people meddle, doubts happen, challenges faced, decide to stay together, HFN ending to each book rather than cliff hangers.

4)Exact book length - 90K+ - 125K.

5)Tropes - alpha hero, rich but professional, playboy, scars, fling that turns into more.

6)Blurbs - can't read 'em! Nope!  But I did study Holly Bodger's guide to writing elevator pitches and hooks.

7)Level and amount of erotic content (if any) - very explicit full scenes with some very mild kink.



> Do you not think any of the above are important factors to know?


Yes! I would go to the top 20 books in the genre you want to write and do an analysis of these factors. If you can figure out what is currently selling and write a page-turner that pleases readers in your genre, and if you can get it in front of them, with appropriate branding and covers, etc. it is possible to sell really well.

There are no guarantees, and even with a growing mailing list of existing readers, my next books might not sell well but if I keep writing, and keep trying to up the bar, I have the best chance of a long-term career in this. So that is my goal.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Sela--- you rock. The amount of information you have provided us with is STAGGERING. Even without knowing your books, you've given so much. As a matter of fact you always give. And you don't owe it to anyone, but you do it anyway. So I commend your writing, business, and human being skills.


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## AmberDa1 (Jul 23, 2012)

Congrats, Sela!   and much continued success to you.

Konrath's blog was a great help to me when I cut my self-publishing teeth back in 2012. Hocking too.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Susanne123 said:


> Sela, many many thanks for posting here. Love the growth in your chart, and that you've shared it with those who wish to read the positive in it -- growth over time your way.
> 
> I haven't published yet, but every time I read a post that's similar to yours, there's a surge in my heart because it can be done.


The reason I post my numbers is two-fold:

1) To show traditionally published authors who get low advances and spotty royalties that self publishing is a viable option if you can figure things out and become productive -- treat it like a business as well as a craft and art form, and

2) To show that even if you aren't a big name in your genre, which I am decidedly NOT, you can make a decent and good and great living if you are consistent and work hard, put yourself and your work out there. It's not all on me -- a lot of it is luck and timing and accidentally running into the right people.

I like to think of the quote" "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail" -- but then again, I was a planner by trade for part of my non-writing career. This holds true for all except the rare rare individual who writes a bestseller right out of the gate. For the rest of us, it's a steep learning curve with lots of hard work and occasional bouts of good luck.


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## Genre Hoarder (Oct 4, 2014)

I see posts like this and I immediately feel a sense of pride. How wonderful it is to achieve success like this! No one hands us anything, not even BookBub, I'm afraid. Yes, some have achieved success straight out the gate, as far as you're (not aimed at anyone, just in general) concerned, but what we (the world) doesn't see is the countless hours spent working to attain that success. Why demand proof? There are plenty of things in the world that happen that we have never seen and will never see but they still happened nonetheless. 

I don't need to tear someone apart because they are more successful than I am or because they aren't. 

I hope posts like this continue to be shared. I take inspiration from them. I shed happy tears for these authors. I know none of them personally and probably never will, but I am so very proud of them and their success!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

It comes down to this:

Read what you want to sell.

That has been true in tradepub. When I worked at the magazine, we got tons of submitting writers who never even thought of reading the magazine. Similarly, I started selling to magazines when I started reading them regularly. It really is as simple as that. Study spreadsheets are not really required. Excel spreadsheets and me shouldn't be allowed in the same room anyway. When you read, you internalise certain things about plot structure, about tropes and then when you write, you kind-of replicate-but-not-really-replicate that "feel", and that's what buyers want: more of the same, but different.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela,

Thanks again for your responses while maintaining a generous spirit and showing respect even when others around us are trying to "stir the nest" with inflammatory/goading comments (eternal burning shame on them). That is a true sign of a champion!

You are wise enough to understand that nobody is trying to pressure you into anything, but the questions stem from a sincere desire to learn from your experience.

Best of luck with your continued success.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> It comes down to this:
> 
> Read what you want to sell.
> 
> That has been true in tradepub. When I worked at the magazine, we got tons of submitting writers who never even thought of reading the magazine. Similarly, I started selling to magazines when I started reading them regularly. It really is as simple as that. Study spreadsheets are not really required. Excel spreadsheets and me shouldn't be allowed in the same room anyway. When you read, you internalise certain things about plot structure, about tropes and then when you write, you kind-of replicate-but-not-really-replicate that "feel", and that's what buyers want: more of the same, but different.


Absolutely and I would never say an author HAS to do the spreadsheet thingy.  I do that because I did that for a living as a planner and researcher and analyst. It is part of my nature and so it feels right.

But you're correct -- you read in your genre, you get a sense for what works for the books that you enjoyed. You do internalize story structure to a degree if you are an avid reader but sometimes it helps to externalize it for those of us who need that kind of thing. I find that it helps for me to visualize story structure and plot so I do the whole plot paradigm drawing and have it up in front of me on the wall, showing the major beats in my story and the rising action.

Everyone is different and have different approaches to getting the job done. You have to find what works for you individually, and then be a good businessperson and learn marketing and promotion.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Sela,

Thank you for sharing! Are most of your series one couple over multiple books? How many books do you typically do with the same couple? To me, it seems like romance is split between same couple over multiple books and iterconnected standalones. Feel free to PM or to ignore this if you'd rather not share.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Great stuff, and so simple yet for some reason so hard to understand. I'm not going to ask if you enjoy writing what you write, I am pretty sure you enjoy making 5-6x the average salary. What is your breakdown amazon vs non amazon sales?


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> If "_knowing_ what sells" is simply "go look at Amazon best sellerz", and that is all that it takes.... then why are any us on these boards reading and posting questions?


Firstly it's not as simple as "look at the bestsellers" it's about researching the books at the top to understand tropes and reader expectations. And secondly, I would suggest that most people don't want to do the hard work. There is a segment of indie writers looking for the quick fix. They expect writing a book and earning a decent wage to be an easy path. They want to hear all they have to do is "get a Bookbub spot" and instant fortune will follow.

There is no quick fix, or guaranteed formula to success in publishing or any other profession. I've followed a number of success stories like Sela, Annie B, Amanda and authors on FB and *regardless of genre*, I have observed one factor that all the top performing authors share -* they work damn hard*.

They don't apply for a Bookbub ad and spend the rest of the week sitting by the pool sipping mojitos. They put in 8+ hours a day writing, plotting, researching, net working, polishing. That's my one takeaway from any K-boarder who willing shares their journey and their success - it's takes work.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Sela,
> 
> Thank you for sharing! Are most of your series one couple over multiple books? How many books do you typically do with the same couple? To me, it seems like romance is split between same couple over multiple books and iterconnected standalones. Feel free to PM or to ignore this if you'd rather not share.


I have a series that follows the same couple. I have another series that follows the same couple. And finally, I have another series that follows the same love triangle trio.  And another I am just starting that follows the same couple.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

DGS said:


> Great stuff, and so simple yet for some reason so hard to understand. I'm not going to ask if you enjoy writing what you write, I am pretty sure you enjoy making 5-6x the average salary. What is your breakdown amazon vs non amazon sales?


So far this year, my breakdown is 60% Amazon, 40% iBooks / B&N / Kobo combined. I'd post another spreadsheet but I haven't updated it yet for July. 

ETA: I LOVE writing my books. I write romance novels with explicit sex and happy for now / happy ever after ends. I have reader email all the time saying how much they loved reading my books, how they stayed up late at night to finish, how they want more and when is the next one coming out.

What's not to love? 

I do have a very serious SF novel partly written on paper and in my head somewhere, waiting for the time it is ripe for finishing. I've been writing it for years, but I am waiting for the time to write it at my leisure. Post-Apocalyptic SF alien encounter story with a love story at its heart. (no, not alien-human sex -- not that there's anything wrong with that!  )

Someday...


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Sela said:


> I have a series that follows the same couple. I have another series that follows the same couple. And finally, I have another series that follows the same love triangle trio.  And another I am just starting that follows the same couple.


When you say "series that follows the same couple" do you mean in the sense of "will they/won't they" over several books? Or in the sense that book one says "they will" and then other issues crop up?


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Sela said:


> I have a series that follows the same couple. I have another series that follows the same couple. And finally, I have another series that follows the same love triangle trio.  And another I am just starting that follows the same couple.


Have you thought of intertwining any of those series? Also, what Dragovian asked. How do you decide when to finish the series if it's the latter?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Dragovian said:


> When you say "series that follows the same couple" do you mean in the sense of "will they/won't they" over several books? Or in the sense that book one says "they will" and then other issues crop up?


They make a more intense commitment to each other at the end of each book, leading to marriage at the end of the final book. 

ETA: Issues crop up in everyone's life and relationships face challenges. The good thing is that by facing the challenges and overcoming them, the relationship is usually stronger. Unless it's not and then you get divorced but that's real life not romance novels.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

DGS said:


> Have you thought of intertwining any of those series? Also, what Dragovian asked. How do you decide when to finish the series if it's the latter?


I have thought of intertwining them. My next series is about three men who work together and their romances. I figure each man will have a three book series in which they meet, fall in love, and marry the woman of their dreams. 

How to end the series? Marriage is usually a good end point, but my readers want more. They want the first year of marriage and family. They don't want the books to end just yet. So I have been considering.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Sela said:


> They make a more intense commitment to each other at the end of each book, leading to marriage at the end of the final book.
> 
> ETA: Issues crop up in everyone's life and relationships face challenges. The good thing is that by facing the challenges and overcoming them, the relationship is usually stronger. Unless it's not and then you get divorced but that's real life not romance novels.


Yes, indeed to your ETA. 

And mmm, books with a developing/deepening relationship instead of new characters or endless Moonlighting-style will they/won't they are deeply relevant to my interests and very hard to find. Obviously I need to look harder.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Dragovian said:


> Yes, indeed to your ETA.
> 
> And mmm, books with a developing/deepening relationship instead of new characters or endless Moonlighting-style will they/won't they are deeply relevant to my interests and very hard to find. Obviously I need to look harder.


There is a point in each book where they could break up, but they grow and push past the doubts and fears. I wanted them both to grow stronger as individuals as well as a couple. That holds true for all my book relationships, and I guess is part of my own take on romance and what I want to read.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2015)

Sela said:


> Absolutely and I would never say an author HAS to do the spreadsheet thingy.  I do that because I did that for a living as a planner and researcher and analyst. It is part of my nature and so it feels right.


Feels right to me, too.  I'm a Type-A. Type-As love spreadsheets and hate disorganization.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I'd like to add my thanks for sharing this. I love these kinds of posts 

I think people forget that Bookbub doesn't sprinkle magic sales fairy dust over your book. If you have a book that hits all the market triggers, they will give it more visibility.


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## Jenna_Elle (Mar 15, 2015)

Super inspirational Sela! Thanks for sharing, loads to learn and absorb now


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Sela said:


> There is a point in each book where they could break up, but they grow and push past the doubts and fears. I wanted them both to grow stronger as individuals as well as a couple. That holds true for all my book relationships, and I guess is part of my own take on romance and what I want to read.


I love this. Romances like these tend to be hard to find. You'd have better luck finding Bigfoot *and* the Loch Ness Monster than anything like that in NA.


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## SusanCht (Oct 24, 2014)

Sela––THANK YOU!

You've proven that if you want to be successful in any area, you need to know all aspects of your field. 
For all of us here, if you can't write a good, compelling story, you're not going to succeed. Period. 

But as to your not posting your name, I write under pseudonym. It's not because I am ashamed that I write sexy romances with fairly graphic sex scenes, it's because in the "real" world I'm a mental health therapist and I need to keep the two professions separate for business and ethical reasons.

What I'm looking forward to is when other companies start realizing that BookBub has had a monopoly for far too long and there starts to be other, similar advertisers to go with. Most of us will probably want to continue with BookBub and use anyone else as well so competition won't hurt BookBub's bottom line very much.


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## Thisiswhywecan&#039;thavenicethings (May 3, 2013)

Sela, You're a class act. Thanks for the info you've given, for your openness and your patience.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

You are easily one of the most, if not the most, generous poster on this board. Your success is inspiring, but what's even more inspiring is your willingness to go the extra mile to help newbies/struggling authors out. Whether you're putting together covers for writers who need one (you're amazing at that, btw), or offering to help individual writers out, you've always been there. Congrats on your success, and may it last forever and ever!


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## JTriptych (Aug 23, 2015)

Congrats, Sela!  

I only wish I was talented enough to write Romance novels!


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

Thank you Sela. As someone just starting out in the romance dept. your advice and experience is inspirational.   Can't wait to see next years post!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

I want to say a huge thanks to everyone who posted and wished me well.  

When I started this thread, I was a bit worried that people would take the wrong way but I enjoyed Annie B's post and remember how much I appreciated when successful authors posted with numbers and specifics so I wanted to do the same when I was totalling up my income and saw how close i was to half a million in income from self publishing. It's quite a milestone and I wanted to reflect on the journey I've taken to get here. 

I hope people can see that it is possible to make a good or great living as a self-published author and not be a huge name. I am NOT a huge name. I have my little corner of the erotic romance genre and occasionally poke my books' heads into the top 100 in my sub-categories but I am NOT one of those names you would recognize if you read in my genre. You won't find my books in the top 100 books right now, although they have been there before. I don't hit the NYT list with each release -- in fact I never have hit a list on release. My releases are pretty quiet and tend to be focused on feeding my existing readers, but as you can see, persistence is working out for me. I keep putting new books out, letting my readers know, and I keep promoting my backlist and trying to reach a wider market and get new readers. 

So you don't have to have huge releases and hit lists to make a very good living. You can be a successful mid-list author and make a very good income. 

Keep at it, don't give up, keep polishing and trying to improve, keep alert to what's going on in the market. 

In closing, I have a sign over my desk that says "Push the bar every day." "Go big or go home."

I don't manage to push the bar every day, nor do I go big, but I try. I am determined not to go home.


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## Marina Finlayson (May 2, 2014)

Sela said:


> I want to say a huge thanks to everyone who posted and wished me well.
> 
> When I started this thread, I was a bit worried that people would take the wrong way but I enjoyed Annie B's post and remember how much I appreciated when successful authors posted with numbers and specifics so I wanted to do the same when I was totalling up my income and saw how close i was to half a million in income from self publishing. It's quite a milestone and I wanted to reflect on the journey I've taken to get here.
> 
> ...


I wish kboards had a Like button. Thank you, Sela.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Dear Sela,

Thank you so much for this amazing post, and all the inspirational ideas it contains! This is what makes Kboards shine! May you keep selling tons more, and having a fantastic success of a career! 

Again, thank you!!!


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

Sela - thank you for this post. I have gotten a great deal out of it, and I love the message that you don't have to always be top anything to be successful. Thank you for your willingness to share. 

I like your thoughts on spreading the HEA over three books. I understand the readers not wanting to let go of the couple, because I'm that kind of reader. 

I wish you all the continued success you've earned! This is such a wonderful post - I had to keep coming back throughout the day to finish it.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

You know, coming back to this thread at the end of the day, it occurred to me that many new writers' frustrations at not being given enough information probably stems from something that's implicit in all these posts about analyzing the market, but that we seldom discuss here, which is that you already have to have learned a LOT about craft and story structure before you can "analyze" what's selling. (well, most of us, anyway. Some folks are just born storytellers or really really smart. The rest of us slog forward, work hard, and hope we'll get it eventually.)

I've been a passionate reader and writer since grade school, but then I decided I wanted to not only write, but actually _sell_ my books. After a couple encouraging rejections (love your writing, but...) I decided to "analyze" a successful book. Just reading a bunch of books wasn't working, so I bought two copies of a book I really enjoyed that wasn't too big (so therefore ought to be easy to analyze, right?). And then I cut the books apart and pasted the pages onto notebook paper because I figured I needed space for notes, and diagrams and all that smart analytical stuff I was going to do. And then I did...nothing. Despite hours spent pouring over those stupid pages, I got as far as the equivalent of "Susan rides a motorcycle" and that was it. I just plain didn't know enough about the mechanics of plot, character arc, story development, dialogue, pacing, conflict (that's screaming over the dinner table, right?), and all the rest of it to be able to understand anything about the structure of that book or what made it work. I mean....zip. A dozen tropes could have jumped out and bit me and I still wouldn't have seen them. Because, frankly, I'm no genius and I didn't understand squat about craft. I could write words--lovely words--but I couldn't put them together into a coherent story, and I didn't know enough to even begin to see how someone else had.

Eventually, after much work and study and reading every book on craft I could get my hands on and having the immeasurable help of a great critique group (and as an aside, you learn more about writing by critiquing others than by having others critique you, though that helps, too), I learned enough to start selling regularly. But I'm still no genius and I admit I'd probably still find it difficult to manage the kind of market analysis that Sela and Annie and Amanda managed to such awesome effect.

But what those amazing ladies and all the others haven't talked about much is that most of them had already put in a LOT of hard work and sweat and written a lot of pages before they'd mastered enough of the basics of craft to be able to pick apart the market successes in their genres. Writers Cafe is a place to talk about the business of getting published as an indie, and these folks have been extraordinarily generous in sharing that part of their journeys with the rest of us. But Writers Cafe _isn't _really the place to talk about craft and what it takes to learn it, so we don't talk about it...and I suspect it's that gap that many new writers are bumping up against without knowing it.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

Nice posts, Sela.

I think an important point -- perhaps THE most important point, and one that most indies making 200K+ a year realize in looking back -- is that we have one thing in common:

We all had a period where we HAD to make it happen, so we studied, wrote very fast, released rapidly, and didn't stop when a book faltered, but pushed to the next book.

It takes about a year of doing that before it pays off. Many of us felt overworked, overstressed, over-everything. But we were able to get through it.

2014 was my year to do it. I published 600,000 words. But once I hit my first 5-figure month, I've never gone back to 4 figures. My backlist is just too big, and each release makes it lift again.

But one thing to note: My early books that didn't sell, STILL don't sell. No matter how many fans I have, some books are just duds. I think this period of rapid study and rapid publishing helps you get past the duds faster, not to dwell on the duds and keep wasting money and energy trying to make the duds work. And that's really the big difference.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

My Dog's Servant said:


> You know, coming back to this thread at the end of the day, it occurred to me that many new writers' frustrations at not being given enough information probably stems from something that's implicit in all these posts about analyzing the market, but that we seldom discuss here, which is that you already have to have learned a LOT about craft and story structure before you can "analyze" what's selling. (well, most of us, anyway. Some folks are just born storytellers or really really smart. The rest of us slog forward, work hard, and hope we'll get it eventually.)
> 
> ...
> 
> But what those amazing ladies and all the others haven't talked about much is that most of them had already put in a LOT of hard work and sweat and written a lot of pages before they'd mastered enough of the basics of craft to be able to pick apart the market successes in their genres. Writers Cafe is a place to talk about the business of getting published as an indie, and these folks have been extraordinarily generous in sharing that part of their journeys with the rest of us. But Writers Cafe _isn't _really the place to talk about craft and what it takes to learn it, so we don't talk about it...and I suspect it's that gap that many new writers are bumping up against without knowing it.


I agree with this completely. The truth is that I had years of writing under my belt when I decided to try to self publish my vampire romance novels.

I wrote on and off when in high school and college, but never finished anything -- just chapters here and there as I fiddled around. I didn't start to write seriously with a thought to getting published for real until the birth of my son, when I had complications and could have bled out and faced a high risk of postpartum haemorrhage. I was literally lying at home after returning from the hospital keeping my legs together for fear I started to bleed LOL because the nurse said FOR GOD'S SAKE CALL 9-1-1 if you do!" so I was in a very delicate mental state. I was reading National Geographic and saw a picture of the Hubble Deep Field Image and it struck me how huge the universe is and how small I am and that my life could end at any moment and I only had this time, now, to live the life i wanted. I resolved then and there that I would finally follow my life-long dream to write fiction.

So that night I had a kind of epiphany that sent me to look for writing groups so I could start to learn the craft. I found a group and started writing erotic fan fiction romance with a group of other female writers and it was the best thing that happened to me. I probably wrote half a million words of fan fiction before I tried to do the whole legacy publishing route. It is a craft and there is a lot to learn about story and plot and character and pace and genre and tropes, etc. I read everything I could get my hands on in those years and wrote and wrote and wrote.

When I felt I was ready, I wrote short stories and tried to sell them to the main print mags in SF/F. Sold a few to small online venues but didn't break into the biggies except with a non-fiction article in Mag of Fantasy and Science Fiction. Then, I started to write my vampire romance and tried to find an agent. Even after all those years of writing in Critters.org and Online Writing Workshop I still made mistakes with my first series.

I think by the time I wrote what I consider to be my breakout novel, I had written 1M+ words. I was a better writer craft-wise by then.

But you have to start somewhere and everyone develops at a different pace. Some are natural writers, some have to work hard at it. Some mature more quickly, some more slowly.

Craft is at the base of a great book -- and by great I mean in the sense of readers wanting to buy it. The biz side of things is necessary to get the book to market and in front of potential readers, but the craft side of things is the base. Before the whole advent of self publishing, the author did the writing and craft side (aside from developmental editing etc) and the publisher took responsible for the biz side.

Now, we indies have to do both. The biz side of things is not rocket science. The art and craft side is something you can learn and improve. That's encouraging.


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## Goulburn (May 21, 2014)

Sella, I'm late adding my congratulations. 

Your work ethics and writing skill are paying off for you, and that is great to see. It must be extremely encouraging for those writing in the romance genre. Even I, working in a narrower field, can take encouragement from seeing the steady build you have and it mas interesting seeing how the variations in the market affected your sales. As one who has left  KU, it is great to see success reports from an author who has gone wide.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela,

Given your massive profits, is there a good reason why you stay in D2D? Aren't they taking 10%? That's quite a tip.

I use them for a pen name but not generating anywhere near what you are. At what point do you pull out of D2D and publish direct with Apple and the others?



Sela said:


> The reason I don't reveal my pen name is that there is a contingent among some people who take delight in drive by 1 star reviews and up-voting bad reviews / down voting good reviews.
> 
> I'm not going to post my books for that reason. However, I was going for inspirational and to show that I've had ups and downs, have tried different things, and some have worked and some haven't. Plus, I've been lucky by collaborating with people who helped my career, had good people providing me services like book covers and editing, and have read a lot of great advice from many of the pundits.
> 
> ...


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

JessHayek69 said:


> Sela,
> 
> Given your massive profits, is there a good reason why you stay in D2D? Aren't they taking 10%? That's quite a tip.
> 
> I use them for a pen name but not generating anywhere near what you are. At what point do you pull out of D2D and publish direct with Apple and the others?


I don't know Sela's reasons, but my reason for using D2D to publish to Nook, Scribd, Page Foundry, and Tolino is two-fold. 1) Nook press is a PITA. 2) Early trauma using Smashwords (apparently it's much better now) I love D2D for the places I use them for, and I won't change them now. I'm very glad I'm wide and direct everywhere else. I wouldn't like starting over with reviews.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Sela,
> 
> Given your massive profits, is there a good reason why you stay in D2D? Aren't they taking 10%? That's quite a tip.
> 
> I use them for a pen name but not generating anywhere near what you are. At what point do you pull out of D2D and publish direct with Apple and the others?


I think the biggest advantage to using D2D is time-saving. It can get to be quite a time-load having to update books when I change something (backmatter, for instance) and then going through each one to reupload it. That's time I could be writing.

Pop it in D2D and let them do the heavy lifting.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

Great information, thanks so much for sharing, Sela. Congratulations on your success!


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## theaatkinson (Sep 22, 2010)

I am agog at how generous and how compassionate the OP's posts have been. Sela (if I may use your first name when we are not acquainted) I should strive for your attitude as much as those sales numbers.

thank you


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## Mromeo (Apr 8, 2015)

I take all of these posts with a grain of salt. It's great if it's true, but for the most part I see people scrambling to emulate a specific formula of which there really is none. Too often, these threads dishearten the reader and make them question why to even bother, which takes away from writing time. Hey good for you if you did it. I see way too manybsimiliqr threads and am skeptical by nature. Also, I don't really give a crap to spend my valuable time digging and researching whether or not it's true. I choose to say congrats and move hoping these threads die a swift death and yet realizing my comment just helped keep it alive. D'oh!


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## Guest (Aug 29, 2015)

Mromeo said:


> I take all of these posts with a grain of salt. It's great if it's true, but for the most part I see people scrambling to emulate a specific formula of which there really is none. Too often, these threads dishearten the reader and make them question why to even bother, which takes away from writing time. Hey good for you if you did it. I see way too manybsimiliqr threads and am skeptical by nature. Also, I don't really give a crap to spend my valuable time digging and researching whether or not it's true. I choose to say congrats and move hoping these threads die a swift death and yet realizing my comment just helped keep it alive. D'oh!


Some of us don't scramble to emulate a specific formula. Rather, some of us take what we can use and disregard the rest.

For example, last year, before I published my zombie series, some authors would get on Kboards and say that the zombie book market was oversaturated, that zombies books won't sell anymore, and blah, blah, blah. I ignored that, published, and sold fine. Authors get on here and say that you should only write novels and not novellas. I'm ignoring that too.

It's not about being a sheep, for me. It's about reading everything I can and then coming to a decision on the paths I want to take.

There is NEVER anything wrong with education. NEVER.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

stoney said:


> I think the biggest advantage to using D2D is time-saving. It can get to be quite a time-load having to update books when I change something (backmatter, for instance) and then going through each one to reupload it. That's time I could be writing.
> 
> Pop it in D2D and let them do the heavy lifting.


So if you were pulling in $1 million a month, you would have no problem paying D2D $100K for the "heavy lifting"?

May as well hire an assistant for less, don't you think?


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## Kenzi (Jul 28, 2014)

Thank you, Sela, for your generosity in this thread. It's much appreciated.


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

Awesome thread, thanks for sharing numbers everyone. Such a great inspiration for those of us starting out.


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## Rachel E. Rice (Jan 4, 2014)

Thanks Sela for showing us what can be possible, and for information concerning writing in different genres, especially erotic romance. Since I began writing erotic romance I have improved my writing speed, my output, as well as an increase in pay. 
Furthermore, when I see what you make on D2D, that encourages me to keep on writing. I started publishing with D2D under my new erotic romance pen name in June, and several other vendors, and business is picking up. But I didn't realize the possibilities of selling that amount of books. 
Thanks for the dream.


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## TBD (Mar 14, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> So if you were pulling in $1 million a month, you would have no problem paying D2D $100K for the "heavy lifting"?
> 
> May as well hire an assistant for less, don't you think?


LOL I come from a different industry where I pay 30% to my distributors AND I pay the shipping on the physical books. I'm considered a hard bargainer to pay just 30% rather than the standard 35%, so for me, 10% is a reasonable trade-off (esp with NO SHIPPING <happy dance>) no matter how much I am making.

I'd like to see D2D stay in business and I am willing to pay/share the wealth to help make it so.

We all come from different situations, and need to make our own decisions ;-)

It would seem that you don't like the 10% and that's fine ;-)


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> So if you were pulling in $1 million a month, you would have no problem paying D2D $100K for the "heavy lifting"?
> 
> May as well hire an assistant for less, don't you think?


Possibly. Depends. I'm not married to one way of doing things forever and ever amen. My business plan is constantly shifting when I hit new milestones. So, when something changes that requires looking at it again, I will. Maybe it would be worth it for me to give D2D $100,000 so that they are able to keep their doors open to help those authors who are just getting started and haven't figured out how to distribute on their own, or can't afford that assistant.


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## TBD (Mar 14, 2014)

Jolie du Pre said:


> It's not about being a sheep, for me. It's about reading everything I can and then coming to a decision on the paths I want to take.
> 
> There is NEVER anything wrong with education. NEVER.


+1


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

TBD said:


> LOL I come from a different industry where I pay 30% to my distributors AND I pay the shipping on the physical books. I'm considered a hard bargainer to pay just 30% rather than the standard 35%, so for me, 10% is a reasonable trade-off (esp with NO SHIPPING <happy dance>) no matter how much I am making.
> 
> I'd like to see D2D stay in business and I am willing to pay/share the wealth to help make it so.
> 
> ...


I don't mind paying 10% of $100 but when you are talking about $10,000 that becomes $1000. What exactly are you getting for $1000 that you didn't get for $10? They don't cap the fee for their services do they? (Maybe they should)

If you feel D2D deserves 10% of your income regardless of amount, so be it. I am sure they love you for it


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## Mxz (Jan 17, 2015)

Wow, congrats on your success and thanks for the outline!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> But one thing to note: My early books that didn't sell, STILL don't sell. No matter how many fans I have, some books are just duds. I think this period of rapid study and rapid publishing helps you get past the duds faster, not to dwell on the duds and keep wasting money and energy trying to make the duds work. And that's really the big difference.


Good insight, thanks for sharing it. I'd say this is similar to a lot of prolific tradpub writer careers, where their early books may not be all that great, but as they continue writing and getting published, you can generally see their writing improve book after book. Maybe the danger for us with indie publishing is that we can touch our backlist and monkey with changes ad infinitum rather than working on the next book.


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## Ansha Kotyk (Aug 4, 2011)

*Waves HI* to Sela! (from my old RD days) It's wonderful to see you doing so very well!!  I noticed in your earnings that a bulk of it comes from about 4 of your books. I've heard from authors, namely Joe K. That you can never tell which ones will be your be your best sellers. What are your thoughts on that?  Anyone else with multiple books/series, please comment as well. Do you know which ones will hit big, an inkling? Or is it hit or miss?  Theories?

My genre (upper Middle Grade/YA adventure) is far from hot selling unless I become James Dashner or Suzanne Collins. But it's my goal of course. Why not reach high 

Thanks everyone!!


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> Good insight, thanks for sharing it. I'd say this is similar to a lot of prolific tradpub writer careers, where their early books may not be all that great, but as they continue writing and getting published, you can generally see their writing improve book after book. Maybe the danger for us with indie publishing is that we can touch our backlist and monkey with changes ad infinitum rather than working on the next book.


Good question, and I thought about my earlier books but they would basically need a complete revision. I think it would be wiser to just write new books. At this point I have no plans to go back and rewrite anything. All new writing will be for new titles.

But I do know that authors like Russel Blake encourage going back and rewriting. However he may have been referring to books that sold good and making them sell great (not revising a dud)


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## Tommy Muncie (Dec 8, 2014)

Sela said:


> I do have a very serious SF novel partly written on paper and in my head somewhere, waiting for the time it is ripe for finishing. I've been writing it for years, but I am waiting for the time to write it at my leisure. Post-Apocalyptic SF alien encounter story with a love story at its heart. (no, not alien-human sex -- not that there's anything wrong with that!  )


I genuinely laughed at that last part! As someone whose side project is probably two pages from daring to go there, it's nice to know I've got something at least vaguely resembling approval from just one person already. It's probably been done in self pubbed books all over the place but with a twist to it I still think I might as well go there!

Thank you for this thread, even though we're working in different genres mostly. When you gave me some help in PM last month I seriously had no idea I was getting it from someone so highly successful...not that it makes other people's input any less valuable but still, I feel quite privileged to have touched base with you.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> I don't mind paying 10% of $100 but when you are talking about $10,000 that becomes $1000. What exactly are you getting for $1000 that you didn't get for $10? They don't cap the fee for their services do they? (Maybe they should)
> 
> If you feel D2D deserves 10% of your income regardless of amount, so be it. I am sure they love you for it


Consider: without the ease of D2D, a particular author might not have hit it big on the other platforms. In that way, perhaps continuing to pay them is a good faith investment in the tool that made success possible.

An analogy, of sorts: I wonder how much Stephen King pays Arthur Greene and Chuck Verrill to be his literary agents? I wonder how much Dennis Lehane pays Ann Rittenberg? I wonder how much Brandon Sanderson pays Joshua Bilmes? I mean, surely at THIS point, with their success, these guys could ditch their literary agents and sell direct, and take all the money and run? Sanderson got a reported 2.5 MILLION dollars for the first four _Way of Kings_ books; at that point he could have sold them on his own, no? Why did Joshua deserve almost 400K?

SOME people are not in it only to make sure they scrape every penny into their own bank account. Some people want to pay it forward, or keep paying it backward to those who helped make them successful, or don't want the hassle of wearing every hat in the business when writing is their passion, or don't want to have to learn a new process every time a retailer changes their dashboard, or only want a single bulk payment from D2D instead of a bunch of piddly ones. Plus, when you're making more money, money means less so it's easier to spread it around. There are a lot of possible reasons, because not everyone is you.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

lilywhite said:


> Consider: without the ease of D2D, a particular author might not have hit it big on the other platforms. In that way, perhaps continuing to pay them is a good faith investment in the tool that made success possible.
> 
> An analogy, of sorts: I wonder how much Stephen King pays Arthur Greene and Chuck Verrill to be his literary agents? I wonder how much Dennis Lehane pays Ann Rittenberg? I wonder how much Brandon Sanderson pays Joshua Bilmes? I mean, surely at THIS point, with their success, these guys could ditch their literary agents and sell direct, and take all the money and run? Sanderson got a reported 2.5 MILLION dollars for the first four _Way of Kings_ books; at that point he could have sold them on his own, no? Why did Joshua deserve almost 400K?
> 
> ...


Additionally, if someone started with D2D, they would likely lose all their reviews if they switched to direct. Sometimes it's just not worth it.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

elizabethsade said:


> Additionally, if someone started with D2D, they would likely lose all their reviews if they switched to direct. Sometimes it's just not worth it.


No the retailers advise to have both indirect and direct versions live until they link the two and then you can remove the indirect version once the direct one shows the reviews.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Mercia McMahon said:


> No the retailers advise to have both indirect and direct versions live until they link the two and then you can remove the indirect version once the direct one shows the reviews.


Interesting.  Is that relatively new? It's been a bit, but I do remember people talking about that being a problem, especially with Apple.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

I use both D2D _and_ Smashwords because they make it easy to get my books to B&N, iBooks and Kobo, etc. I see it as in the long term interest of indie publishers to support other retailers to keep Amazon honest and both D2D and SW make it easy to do so. I went direct to Kobo recently and I am now going to pull out and go back to D2D for it because Kobo just changed their payment process and frankly, I don't need the hassle. They want me to do WHAT Like I don't have enough paperwork and [crap] to submit here there and everywhere? Seriously? It shows me that they don't really care about me as a client if they make me do all the work. They should be taking care of all that themselves and there should be a really smooth transition from one payment scheme to another IMO. So frak it. I'll go back to the distributors.

I don't go direct to iBooks because they have to use your real name as publisher and I haven't got the incorporation stuff down yet. (yeah, I know... my bad!) I started out when I was still working in a very professional capacity and having my name associated with erotic romance was not in my best interest, especially when I had to stand up and speak to a group of professionals about Serious And Important Matters.  So I went through a distributor to get to iBooks in order to keep my secret life as an erotic romance author secret.

Besides the ease of use, and the anonymity, I met some _great_ people like Mark Coker and Dan at D2D who have promoted me with their contacts in the retailers and have helped me when things got clogged up or I was confused. They are GREAT people and I have benefitted from working with both Smashwords and D2D and won't be pulling out anytime soon.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Ansha Kotyk said:


> *Waves HI* to Sela! (from my old RD days) It's wonderful to see you doing so very well!! I noticed in your earnings that a bulk of it comes from about 4 of your books. I've heard from authors, namely Joe K. That you can never tell which ones will be your be your best sellers. What are your thoughts on that? Anyone else with multiple books/series, please comment as well. Do you know which ones will hit big, an inkling? Or is it hit or miss? Theories?
> 
> My genre (upper Middle Grade/YA adventure) is far from hot selling unless I become James Dashner or Suzanne Collins. But it's my goal of course. Why not reach high
> 
> Thanks everyone!!


Yes, my second series, erotic romance, is the one that made bank for me. I think my first books in paranormal romance had quite a few issues, re: genre expectations and I was very ambitious and maybe put too much plot and not enough romance in it to satisfy the romance side of the equation. They are doing better now but they account for a small sliver of my lifetime income as an indie author.

My sister often helps me out with a final proofread before I hit publish and when I sent her my big seller, my sister read it and she said "You'll sell truckloads of it." Now, I would never take the word of a family member because they usually want to see you happy and will say anything to make it so but she is an avid romance reader and reads a book every day or two so she has read EVERY top selling erotic romance novel out there. She was right.  It sold much better than my other series. Sometimes a book feels like it flows and hits some high notes and you hope you've done it right but the readers will be the final tasters of the pudding.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

D2D also gives you some support. When I could NOT get my book off Kobo's French site FNAC and Amazon cried foul for a book I had put in KU, D2D handled it for me--_even though I was not using them due to KU_. CLASS. ACT.

Then, BN did the nightmare thing that was ignoring my future date for my preorder and RELEASING MY PLACEHOLDER FILE, with two months still to release. It went straight for sale. I knew from friends that BN would take 2 weeks to fix it, so I yanked it down and put my preorder up through D2D instead. And it went through the way it should have, and released the way it should have.

So yeah, sometimes there is no price for that sort of smoothness.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela,

I definitely see your points and there are clearly multiple benefits to D2D, depending on your needs.



Sela said:


> I use both D2D _and_ Smashwords because they make it easy to get my books to B&N, iBooks and Kobo, etc. I see it as in the long term interest of indie publishers to support other retailers to keep Amazon honest and both D2D and SW make it easy to do so. I went direct to Kobo recently and I am now going to pull out and go back to D2D for it because Kobo just changed their payment process and frankly, I don't need the hassle. They want me to do WHAT Like I don't have enough paperwork and [crap] to submit here there and everywhere? Seriously? It shows me that they don't really care about me as a client if they make me do all the work. They should be taking care of all that themselves and there should be a really smooth transition from one payment scheme to another IMO. So frak it. I'll go back to the distributors.
> 
> I don't go direct to iBooks because they have to use your real name as publisher and I haven't got the incorporation stuff down yet. (yeah, I know... my bad!) I started out when I was still working in a very professional capacity and having my name associated with erotic romance was not in my best interest, especially when I had to stand up and speak to a group of professionals about Serious And Important Matters.  So I went through a distributor to get to iBooks in order to keep my secret life as an erotic romance author secret.
> 
> Besides the ease of use, and the anonymity, I met some _great_ people like Mark Coker and Dan at D2D who have promoted me with their contacts in the retailers and have helped me when things got clogged up or I was confused. They are GREAT people and I have benefitted from working with both Smashwords and D2D and won't be pulling out anytime soon.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> Hey if you feel a service is worth 10% of _whatever _you make...so be it!


Well, when you make a half a million dollars like Sela has, it will certainly be your prerogative to turn your nose up at D2D and hire someone to do it for you. Good luck!


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

lilywhite said:


> Well, when you make a half a million dollars like Sela has, it will certainly be your prerogative to turn your nose up at D2D and hire someone to do it for you. Good luck!


No offense to D2D, I admire what they offer, but at some point I would draw the line with the 10% of all my earnings.

But like I said, if you make $1,000,000 a year have no problem parting with $100,000...so be it! 

It's only money right?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

I wanted to say that I have been informed it was pretty easy -- like way too easy -- to identify me through something I posted and so I have removed it. For any of you who did figure out who I am, you are obviously smarter than me LOL. Please honour my desire to keep my pen name private.  It's not that I am embarrassed by my books. Goodness. My father knows my pen name and has read my books (at least up until the point where he said he had to stop for fear he had a heart attack because of the sexy times!  ) as has my mother LOL. It's that I want to keep clear of any controversy because I really believe in kindness and paying it forward and don't want to get involved in any nasty business. 

Thank you. 

Oh, and PM me if you want to talk specifics of genre and the biz, if you already know who I am.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I unpublished a lot of my early and non-selling work. If something isn't good enough to continually bring in fresh readership, I don't see the point of keeping it out there, personally. 

D2D is pretty awesome. It gets me into markets I would have to do a lot of work to get into directly (or wouldn't be able to at all in some cases). That's worth 10%, just as Amazon is worth their 30%. I mean, I could sell books direct through my website and keep more money per sale, but I'd make a lot fewer sales. There's always a trade-off.  Some things are worth paying for.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I unpublished a lot of my early and non-selling work. If something isn't good enough to continually bring in fresh readership, I don't see the point of keeping it out there, personally.
> 
> D2D is pretty awesome. It gets me into markets I would have to do a lot of work to get into directly (or wouldn't be able to at all in some cases). That's worth 10%, just as Amazon is worth their 30%. I mean, I could sell books direct through my website and keep more money per sale, but I'd make a lot fewer sales. There's always a trade-off. Some things are worth paying for.


Absolutely!

If I sold through my website, I could earn more and charge less, but I could NEVER match the traffic that Amazon has and so the 30% I pay them is well worth the effort. The 10% I pay on top for D2D or Smashwords is for ease of use. There is a LOT to do in this indie biz and a huge learning curve. There are some things to farm out and there are some things to do yourself. It all depends on how savvy you are as an individual and what you enjoy. It also depends on your temperament. Some people would feel really upset at paying 10% for something they could do for themselves. No one has to go through D2D so I understand not wanting to give up that $$$. For me, it is purely a business decision to use them because they are a net benefit when it comes down to the way I do my own personal calculations.

To each his or her own.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Annie B said:


> I unpublished a lot of my early and non-selling work. If something isn't good enough to continually bring in fresh readership, I don't see the point of keeping it out there, personally.
> 
> D2D is pretty awesome. It gets me into markets I would have to do a lot of work to get into directly (or wouldn't be able to at all in some cases). That's worth 10%, just as Amazon is worth their 30%. I mean, I could sell books direct through my website and keep more money per sale, but I'd make a lot fewer sales. There's always a trade-off. Some things are worth paying for.


Also, I know that D2D has stated (I know I read this somewhere) they are trying to add Amazon to their list. If that happens, do you stay with Amazon directly, or switch to D2D and pay the additional 10%?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Also, I know that D2D has stated (I know I read this somewhere) they are trying to add Amazon to their list. If that happens, do you stay with Amazon directly, or switch to D2D and pay the additional 10%?


Annie can answer for herself but for me I would ALWAYS go direct to Amazon because there is no doubt Amazon would treat you preferentially for doing so. I can't imagine a scenario when I would go through a distributor to reach Amazon.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela said:


> Annie can answer for herself but for me I would ALWAYS go direct to Amazon because there is no doubt Amazon would treat you preferentially for doing so. I can't imagine a scenario when I would go through a distributor to reach Amazon.


Interesting. So logically then if these other companies like Apple, Kobo, B&N, etc offered better treatment, D2D may be in trouble.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Interesting. So logically then if these other companies like Apple, Kobo, B&N, etc offered better treatment, D2D may be in trouble.


That's actually why I went direct to Kobo. I thought that if I did, they would be more willing to promote my books. If so, I haven't seen it yet. And with this change to the payment process and the paperwork required, it doesn't seem to me that they are trying hard. So back to D2D.

If the others made it easy to go through them? If they actually gave the author benefits by being direct? There would be no need but as it currently is, there is benefit to go through a distributor.

I made a to-do list the other day and almost had a panic attack. Seriously. I have been considering hiring a PA to help me but even that is on my to-do list after going to see my tax accountant and the dozen other things I need to do to run my business more effectively. This is on top of actually, you know, finishing my book by my deadline...

ETA: What a lot of indies don't realize at first is that this whole business used to take place in two different realms -- the realm of the creative and the realm of the business. Until self-publishing became viable, the business side was done by the big publishing houses and there were all these people on salary or contract to do the stuff indies now do. There is a lot to do especially if you want to grow and thrive. I could do everything and keep every penny to myself but there are some parts of the process that make business sense to hire out.

That may be different for each author, and based on their goals and temperament and skills.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Sela said:


> That's actually why I went direct to Kobo. I thought that if I did, they would be more willing to promote my books. If so, I haven't seen it yet. And with this change to the payment process and the paperwork required, it doesn't seem to me that they are trying hard. So back to D2D.
> 
> If the others made it easy to go through them? If they actually gave the author benefits by being direct? There would be no need but as it currently is, there is benefit to go through a distributor.
> 
> ...


You should talk to Joe Nobody, I think he has people who take care of the biz side for him.


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## Lorena (Jun 7, 2015)

Sela, many thanks for taking the time to write this post and keep answering with such kindness. This thread is full of useful info (and hope!) for us newbies


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Use Google, Jess. Geez. 

I use D2D for many markets like Oyster, Scribd, Apple (I don't own a Mac, so I can't even go direct as an option there), Tolino etc. They keep it all in one spot, have great customer service if something goes wrong, and I only have to upload one file and enter all the information once.  

I stay direct with Amazon, just as I am direct with Kobo, because they make it easy and give perks for being direct (participation in sales etc). 

This is a business. You make decisions that work for you, which sometimes means giving up a little money in exchange for time and other less tangible things. I could clean my yard, but I pay someone to do it, because I value/want my time and energy for other things. I can make my own covers decently, too, but I hire professionals because a) they do a better job (great vs just good) and b) time investment. There will always be things in life that I will hire other people to do. Scrimping a penny here and there isn't worth the intangible prices such as time, energy, etc.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

We should accept that people make the choices they think are right for them based on the info they have...and not belabor the point...

Betsy


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I think D2D used to do Amazon as well, but they stopped for reasons I can't recall.

I'm actually all-in with Amazon at the moment but if I go wide again I'll do it through D2D like a shot. It's so easy to use and their customer service is excellent.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Use Google, Jess. Geez.
> 
> I use D2D for many markets like Oyster, Scribd, Apple (I don't own a Mac, so I can't even go direct as an option there), Tolino etc. They keep it all in one spot, have great customer service if something goes wrong, and I only have to upload one file and enter all the information once.
> 
> ...


Good call. I can understand the expense and trouble of purchasing one of those "MAC" things from Apple. And they are probably extremely difficult to operate too I'm sure. Plus it's only pennies to paid to D2D. Nothing to be concerned about.

P.S. Amanda cuts her own yard! Jeez!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

JessHayek69 said:


> Good call. I can understand the expense and trouble of purchasing one of those "MAC" things from Apple. And they are probably extremely difficult to operate too I'm sure.


I lost both my arms in a tragic lawn-trimming incident, so to me it's worth the time to pay other people to do stuff for me. YMMV, of course.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I only mow my own yard because it takes 25 minutes. Once I mow it this fall for the last time -- it will be the last time. I'm buying my dream house in the spring and I'm getting a landscaper, maid, snow removal and a guy to come by and clean the pool once a week. I'm having it professionally painted inside, too. After that, I'm paying people to fix up this house before I unload it. I'm all for paying people. Since my current yard is so small, I would feel incredibly lazy not to do it myself. I am hiring someone to come in and trim all the trees and bushes and clean all the gardens, though. I don't want to do it, so I'm not going to do it.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I only mow my own yard because it takes 25 minutes. Once I mow it this fall for the last time -- it will be the last time. I'm buying my dream house in the spring and I'm getting a landscaper, maid, snow removal and a guy to come by and clean the pool once a week. I'm having it professionally painted inside, too. After that, I'm paying people to fix up this house before I unload it. I'm all for paying people. Since my current yard is so small, I would feel incredibly lazy not to do it myself. I am hiring someone to come in and trim all the trees and bushes and clean all the gardens, though. I don't want to do it, so I'm not going to do it.


Sounds like a plan! And I volunteer to do all of that house and yard work for the tiny fee of...10% of your book profits


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Not to judge anyone for wanting help understanding what makes a book sell, I've always preferred to do my own research, because I feel I learn more from process of the research than I would have had someone given me the answer. To me, the greatest value is in figuring it out for myself.

That said, threads like this are amazing. Thanks again for sharing, Sela


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I only mow my own yard because it takes 25 minutes. Once I mow it this fall for the last time -- it will be the last time. I'm buying my dream house in the spring and I'm getting a landscaper, maid, snow removal and a guy to come by and clean the pool once a week. I'm having it professionally painted inside, too. After that, I'm paying people to fix up this house before I unload it. I'm all for paying people. Since my current yard is so small, I would feel incredibly lazy not to do it myself. I am hiring someone to come in and trim all the trees and bushes and clean all the gardens, though. I don't want to do it, so I'm not going to do it.


Thanks 

My point, Jess, is that sometimes paying someone to do things is worth it. There are more costs than money in life and some things are worth paying for to save in other ways. I dunno. I figured it was a pretty obvious thing. Perhaps not.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Thanks
> 
> My point, Jess, is that sometimes paying someone to do things is worth it. There are more costs than money in life and some things are worth paying for to save in other ways. I dunno. I figured it was a pretty obvious thing. Perhaps not.


You do realize at least one other successful author on this board has advised NOT to use aggregators due to the 10%?

Not all decisions are easy, especially with conflicting advice from successful sources.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Amanda, you're getting a pool guy? When might we anticipate a steamy novel?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

vlmain said:


> Amanda, you're getting a pool guy? When might we anticipate a steamy novel?


I am getting a pool guy, lol. It all depends on what he looks like. I'm incredibly shallow.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> You do realize at least one other successful author on this board has advised NOT to use aggregators due to the 10%?
> 
> Not all decisions are easy, especially with conflicting advice from successful sources.


That's why you do your own research and come to a decision based on your own situation and business plan.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> You do realize at least one other successful author on this board has advised NOT to use aggregators due to the 10%?
> 
> Not all decisions are easy, especially with conflicting advice from successful sources.


So? More power to them. I know major sellers who only use Amazon, too, and like being exclusive there. They can do what they want, I do what I want. Just like my neighbor mows his own lawn, I don't. We both do what we do for our reasons. Who cares? 

The impression I get from your threads, and this is off-topic a little so maybe it'll get snipped, but... you are looking for a formula. A perfect plan and someone to hold your hand through it? Something like that. Just the impression I get. There is not ONE WAY TO PERFECT CAREER anywhere. It doesn't exist. Everything that works for Sela or Amanda or Hugh or for any of the hundreds of six-figure indies I could name is going to be slightly different and going forward things will be different again for the next Amanda or Hugh or whatever. 
So questioning people if they are willing to share info is good. Questioning them over and over and picking at their answers? Less good. Go try stuff yourself. If you don't want to go with an aggregator, don't. If you think you'll save time, make more money over all etc for it to be worth it, try it and see if you are right. What do you think the rest of us are doing?


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

AliceWE said:


> That's why you do your own research and come to a decision based on your own situation and business plan.


Good call. And part of my research is asking questions and trying to understand why some authors say the 10% fee is worth it and others say no.

Do asking questions on these boards count as research?


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Good call. And part of my research is asking questions and trying to understand why some authors say the 10% fee is worth it and others say no.
> 
> Do asking questions on these boards count as research?


Some say one thing and some say another because they are different people, with different wants/needs/priorities.

And there is a point where "asking questions" becomes "hounding people because they aren't telling you what you want to hear".


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Good call. And part of my research is asking questions and trying to understand why some authors say the 10% fee is worth it and others say no.
> 
> Do asking questions on these boards count as research?


There's asking questions, then there's demanding answers in the exact format and level of detail that you require.

Here's the thing- these boards are great. They give you access to a wide variety of people at all different levels of success.

But no one has your magic plan for success. No one is hiding the easy button from you. Take what sounds reasonable to you from these boards and try it. On your own. Come to your own conclusions. If you are waiting for everyone to agree and the one plan to make you money to appear, you will be waiting here for a long, long time.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Just to clarify a few Mac issues ...

Macs are easy to use. Easier than PCs, imo.
Macs are more expensive, but there are refurbished/used/not-too-bad options.
You don't need to have a Mac to go direct with Apple. There are services like MacInCloud.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Monique said:


> Just to clarify a few Mac issues ...
> 
> Macs are easy to use. Easier than PCs, imo.
> Macs are more expensive, but there are refurbished/used/not-too-bad options.
> You don't need to have a Mac to go direct with Apple. There are services like MacInCloud.


I'm aware, thanks  I still find D2D useful and worth the time and effort they save me. It's not like I can't afford a Mac. I just don't care enough. Same as I don't want to mow my own lawn. I like my time and effort to be spent on other things.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Monique said:


> Just to clarify a few Mac issues ...
> 
> Macs are easy to use. Easier than PCs, imo.
> Macs are more expensive, but there are refurbished/used/not-too-bad options.
> You don't need to have a Mac to go direct with Apple. There are services like MacInCloud.


I would never go back to a PC after my Mac. I do have a PC for general backup purposes, but I'm rarely on it. I live on my Mac, and it was well worth the money.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

So MacInCloud replaces the need to "own a Mac"?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Annie B said:


> I'm aware, thanks  I still find D2D useful and worth the time and effort they save me. It's not like I can't afford a Mac. I just don't care enough. Same as I don't want to mow my own lawn. I like my time and effort to be spent on other things.


Just clarifying that you don't *need* a Mac. Choosing to have one or not is personal, of course.

I love mine so much I'd marry them if I could.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> So MacInCloud replaces the need to "own a Mac"?


If you go to their website, you'll learn about the service.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Good call. And part of my research is asking questions and trying to understand why some authors say the 10% fee is worth it and others say no.
> 
> Do asking questions on these boards count as research?


There's asking questions and then there's picking people apart making them defend/justify their business decisions. Sniping at people isn't asking questions about a strategy or product.

I'm new at this, I have one little book out. I read, I asked a few questions THEN I made up my mind on what to do. I have a plan I'm trying that suits me at this point in time. If it doesn't give me the results I want, I'll try something else. I'll read a few more threads and tinker with my strategy.

There comes a point where you have to do it yourself.

No one here is gong to make your business decisions for you. I get the impression your current path isn't giving you the result you want. So change it, do something else. But don't pick Sela apart because she makes a decision to use D2D instead of Smashwords or going direct. Don't insult the intelligence of people who chose not to buy a Mac to go direct to Apple. Comments like that aren't productive and they aren't advancing your business any further.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Monique said:


> If you go to their website, you'll learn about the service.


Thanks Monique! Looks like some of us learned a new thing today


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Thanks Monique! Looks like some of us learned a new thing today


Make sure you read up on it. With the understanding that I haven't used this service and that I do use D2D to upload to Apple, I thought the MacinCloud thing is something you pay for by the hours? So that may be worth your time.

Also, unless it's changed, be very careful about Apple outing you from your pen name. Apparently they use the name you use to sign up and require you to have a DBA on file with them to keep them from using your real name.

Unless that's changed. I'd appreciate it if someone corrects my understanding on these.


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## Cookie Monster (Apr 6, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Good call. And part of my research is asking questions and trying to understand why some authors say the 10% fee is worth it and others say no.
> 
> Do asking questions on these boards count as research?


KBoards is research, but I think what people are trying to explain to you is that there is no "one true path" to success. Some people will use aggregators. Some people will go direct. Neither group of people is wrong in their approach--they're doing what's right for them. The only way to determine what's right for you is to try something and see if it works.

I don't think anyone is trying to be unhelpful, but there comes a point when every writer must make their own decisions based on their own needs, resources, time, and values. No matter how deep you drill down into an individual writer's answers, those answers may not be the right answers for you.

Learn about what other people do, think about your needs and resources, and then make a decision and try something. If that thing doesn't work for you, try something else. There is no "right answer" to the questions you've asked in a lot of places. That's why different writers say and do different things. The only way to know what the right answer is for you is to try things and see what works.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I would never go back to a PC after my Mac. I do have a PC for general backup purposes, but I'm rarely on it. I live on my Mac, and it was well worth the money.


Once you go Mac, you never go back! LOL

I just bought a beautiful iMac with retina display and we loves it we does, precious!


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Cookie Monster said:


> The only way to determine what's right for you is to try something and see if it works.
> 
> The only way to know what the right answer is for you is to try things and see what works.


Learn all you can from the mistakes of others.
You won't have time to make them all yourself. 
-Alfred Sheinwold

It is necessary for us to learn from others' mistakes. You will not live long enough to make them all yourself. 
-Admiral Hyman Rickover

You must learn from the mistakes of others. You can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself. 
~Sam Levenson


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Cookie Monster said:


> KBoards is research, but I think what people are trying to explain to you is that there is no "one true path" to success. Some people will use aggregators. Some people will go direct. Neither group of people is wrong in their approach--they're doing what's right for them. The only way to determine what's right for you is to try something and see if it works.
> 
> I don't think anyone is trying to be unhelpful, but there comes a point when every writer must make their own decisions based on their own needs, resources, time, and values. No matter how deep you drill down into an individual writer's answers, those answers may not be the right answers for you.
> 
> Learn about what other people do, think about your needs and resources, and then make a decision and try something. If that thing doesn't work for you, try something else. There is no "right answer" to the questions you've asked in a lot of places. That's why different writers say and do different things. The only way to know what the right answer is for you is to try things and see what works.


This.

And I've seen a lot of what I think of as Baby Bird Syndrome on the boards lately. It's expected with a lot of news, but if you can Google it, do so. Learn what you can, then come back with questions. Sitting there, mouth wide open, cheeping for bits, can eventually rub people the wrong way. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. It's simply a trend I've seen and not just from newbs. We all started out knowing nothing, but Google and previous threads are your friend.


----------



## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Sela said:


> Once you go Mac, you never go back! LOL
> 
> I just bought a beautiful iMac with retina display and we loves it we does, precious!


You're making me want a Mac.

That's not true. I've always wanted one. One day, I will!


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Cookie Monster said:


> KBoards is research, but I think what people are trying to explain to you is that there is no "one true path" to success. Some people will use aggregators. Some people will go direct. Neither group of people is wrong in their approach--they're doing what's right for them. The only way to determine what's right for you is to try something and see if it works.
> 
> I don't think anyone is trying to be unhelpful, but there comes a point when every writer must make their own decisions based on their own needs, resources, time, and values. No matter how deep you drill down into an individual writer's answers, those answers may not be the right answers for you.
> 
> Learn about what other people do, think about your needs and resources, and then make a decision and try something. If that thing doesn't work for you, try something else. There is no "right answer" to the questions you've asked in a lot of places. That's why different writers say and do different things. The only way to know what the right answer is for you is to try things and see what works.


This is so true. You can take advice if it seems to make sense to you and then implement it. If it doesn't work, try something else. Keep trying until you find what works for you. We are all different and have different temperaments. Some authors like to have total control over every aspect of their work and others not so much control and still others want someone else to do it all. There is no wrong approach if you are happy and if your business is working out the way you want. It is possible to make mistakes and make wrong choices but they usually are survivable and you can regroup and try again. I study the best selling authors to see what they do and try to do what they all have in common and tweak to make it work for me.

I could go direct to Apple but it would mean more work and right now, at this point in my career, I want less hassle, not more. I am willing to give D2D / SW 10% to make it easier. 10% of $100, $1,000 or $1,000,000. It's the cost of doing business to me. It may not make sense to others, but that's their prerogative. It's neither right nor wrong. It's just a different business choice that each of us have to make.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Sela said:


> Once you go Mac, you never go back! LOL
> 
> I just bought a beautiful iMac with retina display and we loves it we does, precious!


I'm on my second. I'm trying to decide when I want to upgrade again. I will probably wait until after my movie. It's my baby. If there's a fire, I'm getting the Mac out with the cats.


----------



## stoney (May 24, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Learn all you can from the mistakes of others.
> You won't have time to make them all yourself.
> -Alfred Sheinwold
> 
> ...


The problem, Jess, is that your questions are less questions to learn and more to argue the point. The thing about the distributors. You beat it into the ground about 'making a million dollars and being willing to give them $100,000'. Seriously? Why do you care why someone would want to do that?

If you don't want to give them 10%, then don't. No one is making you. No one said you have to. It's just as viable an alternative to not to.

The question I wasn't able to wrap my head around was why it was so important to _you_ that someone justify why they are doing their business the way they are? And that was where your question line was heading. You were implicitly requiring them to justify their business decisions to you by your repeated questions.

That's why people were saying they don't owe you that information. Sure there's a lot to be learned. Grilling someone why they have made decisions they've made, throwing scenario after scenario after them with the expectation that they now need to answer it?

Come on, now.


----------



## RochellePaige (Feb 2, 2015)

I think there are differing perspectives on using D2D/SW vs going direct because it's such a personal decision to make. Each individual has to decide if they're willing to pay the % in exchange for the convenience received by the service. It's not as clear cut as advice along the lines of use a good editor, hire a cover designer, the best form of marketing is to publish your next book, etc. Those are the types of things you'll get almost universally from successful indie authors. They can tell you about the pros and cons of D2D/SW based on their experience, but you're the only one who can make this decision for yourself. Although I will admit my experience with D2D has convinced several of my author friends (including NYT/USA Today bestsellers whose % will be bigger $$ than mine) to give them a chance.


----------



## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

I want a Mac so badly. I'm so over PC's and all things Microsoft. But I'm having a terrible time finding any kind of tutorials on Kindle formatting using Pages.  All the tutorials I've found for Mac users say to use Word. What do you all use? 

Edited to correct crazy Samsung Galaxy auto correct.


----------



## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela said:


> I could go direct to Apple but it would mean more work and right now, at this point in my career, I want less hassle, not more. I am willing to give D2D / SW 10% to make it easier. 10% of $100, $1,000 or $1,000,000. It's the cost of doing business to me. It may not make sense to others, but that's their prerogative. It's neither right nor wrong. It's just a different business choice that each of us have to make.


I wonder if the fact that authors never see the 10% deduction makes this easier. "Out of sight, out of mind" sort of thing. I think if people had to actually write a 10% check to D2D, they may cringe a little?


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

vlmain said:


> I want a Mac so badly. I'm so over PC's and all things Microsoft. But I'm having a terrible time finding any kind of tutorials on Kindle formatting using Pages. All the utopias I've found for Mac users say to use Word. What do you all use?


I know a few people who use Page and love their epubs. I use both Scrivener and now Vellum.


----------



## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> I wonder if the fact that authors never see the 10% deduction makes this easier. "Out of sight, out of mind" sort of thing. I think if people had to actually write a 10% check to D2D, they may cringe a little?


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

vlmain said:


> I want a Mac so badly. I'm so over PC's and all things Microsoft. But I'm having a terrible time finding any kind of tutorials on Kindle formatting using Pages. All the utopias I've found for Mac users say to use Word. What do you all use?


If you can afford it, subscribe to Microsoft Office 365 and you will get to use MSOffice and all its bells and whistles for $99 a year. I worked for 15 years with Windows and Office and am too fixed to learn a new program so that's what I do.

https://products.office.com/en-ca/business/compare-office-365-for-business-plans?WT.mc_id=PS_Google_O365SMB_ms%20office%20365_Text&WT.srch=1


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> I wonder if the fact that authors never see the 10% deduction makes this easier. "Out of sight, out of mind" sort of thing. I think if people had to actually write a 10% check to D2D, they may cringe a little?


Like the 30% I pay Amazon, the 10% to D2D / SW is worth it to me personally for the ease of use and customer service and special perks of access to promotions.

YMMV.


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

MyraScott said:


>


----------



## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Great. I've been trying to get Do You Wanna Build a Snowman off the brain all day and you give me this?


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Sela said:


> Once you go Mac, you never go back! LOL
> 
> I just bought a beautiful iMac with retina display and we loves it we does, precious!


I grew up on Macs. Then I discovered computer gaming and the joy of overclocking and building my own crazy machines and have never gone back


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Lydniz said:


> Great. I've been trying to get Do You Wanna Build a Snowman off the brain all day and you give me this?


*hands you Frostmourne to smack the snowman around with*


----------



## stoney (May 24, 2015)

I suppose if we're going to derail Sela's excellently inspirational OP, videos of earworms are a good way to do it.


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2015)

Sela said:


> Once you go Mac, you never go back! LOL


THIS.


----------



## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Sela said:


> If you can afford it, subscribe to Microsoft Office 365 and you will get to use MSOffice and all its bells and whistles for $99 a year. I worked for 15 years with Windows and Office and am too fixed to learn a new program so that's what I do.
> 
> https://products.office.com/en-ca/business/compare-office-365-for-business-plans?WT.mc_id=PS_Google_O365SMB_ms%20office%20365_Text&WT.srch=1


That's what I use now. I was hoping to get away from Word. especially after the last 365 automatic update stripped the formatting out of every one of my previously formatted books. I was not a happy camper! Lol


----------



## Jake Kerr (Aug 6, 2014)

The trouble, Jess, is that you are using a criteria of learning that changes as writers get more successful.

So, to your point about mistakes. Yes, you can avoid making a lot of mistakes by studying the mistakes of others. But, really, that's not a recipe for success. That just gets you to the starting line. After you avoid all the mistakes, the ability to learn through that is pretty much done.

The D2D discussion is a great one where you appear to be totally oblivious to variables that affect that decision and all you focus on is "it costs money that I could save by doing it myself, so it sucks!"

Well, if Amanda has dozens of books out and needs to manage those, and her choice is between spending 10% and using that time to write more books, it is most likely worth her investment to go with D2D and write more. The ROI isn't even worth mentioning in that regard it is so obvious. 

But that scenario would be different for someone who spends less time writing than Amanda or has fewer releases. In that case maybe the ROI isn't worth it for D2D.

The point being that if you are guiding your learning process to avoid mistakes, you are still in rank beginner territory and shouldn't be listening to those that are successful. You need to avoid mistakes and learn basic stuff first. 

If you feel you are no longer at rank beginner level then avoiding mistakes is no longer on the table. Now you should focus on looking at possible strategies to try on your own. They ALL work in some combination or another. As Annie pointed out, there is no ONE WAY. Your goal should be to look for things you haven't tried but work for others and then try them yourself.

Will all of them work? No. Will you get frustrated? Yes. But that's the process. There are no shortcuts. There are no wrong paths. There aren't even mistakes to avoid. Amanda will do something that won't work for Hugh. Annie will do something that won't work for Amanda. 

So if your goal in grilling Amanda or Sela is to find out where they are screwing up to avoid doing that? Well, that one exact thing that they are screwing up may actually be the thing that works for you.


----------



## Tricia O&#039; (Feb 19, 2013)

For those who feel they can't afford a mac - I suggest checking out cowboom.com. It is a division of BestBuy that sells used computers and will tell you what condition it is in prior to buying it. 

As for people who continue to try to dissect every last piece of advice given, I will give you one really big piece of advice. Download the Freedom APP. Block the internet and write your next book. And then your next. Hours upon hours starting threads and arguing points on Kboards is doing little for your bottom line.


----------



## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I've never heard that version of Let It Go. The singer has a very impressive vocal range.


----------



## Kenzi (Jul 28, 2014)

stoney said:


> I suppose if we're going to derail Sela's excellently inspirational OP, videos of earworms are a good way to do it.


The videos aren't what derailed it. It was already off the tracks. 

(Side note: I'm in love with the Arthas video. So perfect. )



Annie B said:


> If Jess wants to figure out why her books aren't doing what she wants, she could make her own thread and ask. I'm sure people have ideas. This isn't really the thread for that, I don't think


Or maybe a thread for people to discuss the pros and cons of using aggregators.


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Kenzi said:


> The videos aren't what derailed it. It was already off the tracks.
> 
> (Side note: I'm in love with the Arthas video. So perfect. )


The Arthas video is both everything the Frozen video should have been but wasn't (emotionally, I mean, not the stabby-stab; Frozen didn't need stabby-stab) and perfectly suited to Arthas.


----------



## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

vlmain said:


> I want a Mac so badly. I'm so over PC's and all things Microsoft. But I'm having a terrible time finding any kind of tutorials on Kindle formatting using Pages. All the tutorials I've found for Mac users say to use Word. What do you all use?


Pages on Mac > Export to Word (.docx) > Vellum

= beautiful ebooks.

Easy.


----------



## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Evan of the R. said:


> Pages on Mac > Export to Word (.docx) > Vellum
> 
> = beautiful ebooks.
> 
> Easy.


I thought Vellum was Mac-only. Or am I misunderstanding the order of events here.


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2015)

Evan of the R. said:


> Pages on Mac > Export to Word (.docx) > Vellum
> 
> = beautiful ebooks.
> 
> Easy.


I don't do the Pages on Mac part. I just copy from Word and build my book in Vellum. Works great, and it's super easy.


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2015)

stoney said:


> I thought Vellum was Mac-only. Or am I misunderstanding the order of events here.


Yeah, Vellum is Mac only.


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Dragovian said:


>


+1,000,000. You've made my tween very happy today.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Thanks for sharing this information, Sela. You're awesome.



stoney said:


> I thought Vellum was Mac-only. Or am I misunderstanding the order of events here.


Vellum is Mac only, yes.


----------



## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

stoney said:


> I thought Vellum was Mac-only. Or am I misunderstanding the order of events here.


Yes, it is Mac-only. We're talking about formatting ebooks for Kindle using Pages on a Mac.

Pages has its own file format, and files look like this: AWESOME_NOVEL.pages.

But Pages can easily export .docx files, so your file can be created in one second as a .docx, and show up as this: AWESOME_NOVEL.docx.

And Vellum - which is very nice - imports .docx files very nicely, keeping the chapters, TOC, etc.

vlmain asked how us Mac users format for Kindle using Pages. That's how I do it.


----------



## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> Yeah, Vellum is Mac only.


Bummer.

And also one of the main motivations for me to earn enough writing to get one.


----------



## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Jolie du Pre said:


> I don't do the Pages on Mac part. I just copy from Word and build my book in Vellum. Works great, and it's super easy.


Right, that works too.

Some of us don't want to use Word at all. You can skip Word entirely by using Pages and just exporting the Word file.

(And Pages is something you don't have to pay for by the year or by the month. One purchase, once, and you're done.)


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2015)

Evan of the R. said:


> Right, that works too.
> 
> Some of us don't want to use Word at all. You can skip Word entirely by using Pages and just exporting the Word file.
> 
> (And Pages is something you don't have to pay for by the year or by the month. One purchase, once, and you're done.)


Yeah, good point about Pages and not having to pay by the month. Thanks for the reminder on that.


----------



## Jake Kerr (Aug 6, 2014)

> back to Sela being awesome


Oh my gosh, yes. More of this. Please.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

All I have to say about certain things is this:


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Sela said:


> All I have to say about certain things is this:


Man, now I want to watch Star Trek TNG. I think the fifth season is my favorite.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Man, now I want to watch Star Trek TNG. I think the fifth season is my favorite.


Nothing can compete with ST:NG IMO.

YMMV


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2015)

Sela said:


> All I have to say about certain things is this:


Various people across the globe, Whitley Strieber, my neighbor - they've all claimed they've seen aliens. So, according to them, they do visit us.


----------



## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Thanks again, Sela, that was laugh out loud. Just the Picard me up I needed.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Jolie du Pre said:


> Various people across the globe, Whitley Streiber, my neighbor - they've all claimed they've seen aliens. So, according to them, they do visit us.


I maintain I saw Bigfoot on my way to work one summer. I was tremendously hungover, but I don't care what anyone says, it was not a bear.


----------



## Guest (Aug 29, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I maintain I saw Bigfoot on my way to work one summer. I was tremendously hungover, but I don't care what anyone says, it was not a bear.


I believe in aliens, ghosts, Bigfoot - all of it.


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Sela said:


> All I have to say about certain things is this:


We're sorry, Captain.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Picard me up.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Monique said:


> Picard me up.


I was in love with Spock when I was 11 and then Picard when I was in my twenties.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Sela said:


> I was in love with Spock when I was 11 and then Picard when I was in my twenties.


I was in love with Worf. (Yeah, I said it).


----------



## AkBee (Aug 24, 2012)

Sela said:


> Once you go Mac, you never go back! LOL
> 
> I just bought a beautiful iMac with retina display and we loves it we does, precious!


Oh, they are worth every penny! And it is true, you will never go back! LOL @ precious


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Sela said:


> I was in love with Spock when I was 11 and then Picard when I was in my twenties.


When I was little I wanted to be Bones. My friends and I played Star Trek every day during recess.

Picard's got it goin' on.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I was in love with Worf. (Yeah, I said it).


Teehee.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

AliceWE said:


> I want to know if Sela wears a thong, panties or boy legs.
> 
> I think that might be the pivotal piece of information that explains her success...because it couldn't be as simple as writing a damn fine book people want to read.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I am an Original Series girl until death! I've got the tattoo to prove it


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Monique said:


> When I was little I wanted to be Bones. My friends and I played Star Trek every day during recess.
> 
> Picard's got it goin' on.


My friends and I all played V. It was a miniseries (two actually) about aliens. I don't know why that just popped in my head.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Sela, I recommend that you tack this on to the beginning of your original post. It paints a much clearer picture of the road to your success.



Sela said:


> I agree with this completely. The truth is that I had years of writing under my belt when I decided to try to self publish my vampire romance novels.
> 
> I wrote on and off when in high school and college, but never finished anything -- just chapters here and there as I fiddled around. I didn't start to write seriously with a thought to getting published for real until the birth of my son, when I had complications and could have bled out and faced a high risk of postpartum haemorrhage. I was literally lying at home after returning from the hospital keeping my legs together for fear I started to bleed LOL because the nurse said FOR GOD'S SAKE CALL 9-1-1 if you do!" so I was in a very delicate mental state. I was reading National Geographic and saw a picture of the Hubble Deep Field Image and it struck me how huge the universe is and how small I am and that my life could end at any moment and I only had this time, now, to live the life i wanted. I resolved then and there that I would finally follow my life-long dream to write fiction.
> 
> ...


----------



## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My friends and I all played V. It was a miniseries (two actually) about aliens. I don't know why that just popped in my head.


Loved V (the original). I watched it again last year, it still rocks.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Liz French said:


> Loved V (the original). I watched it again last year, it still rocks.


OMG I watched that series and LOVED it. LOL


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Liz French said:


> Loved V (the original). I watched it again last year, it still rocks.


I will never forget that alien baby birthing.


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My friends and I all played V. It was a miniseries (two actually) about aliens. I don't know why that just popped in my head.


V was great! You will never look at Freddy Krueger the same way again when you realize Robert Englund played an adorable lizard alien.


----------



## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

Monique said:


> I will never forget that alien baby birthing.


That and the poor mouse!


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Dragovian said:


> V was great! You will never look at Freddy Krueger the same way again when you realize Robert Englund played an adorable lizard alien.


Because of V I have a weird crush on Michael Ironside that I still can't explain.


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Man, now I want to watch Star Trek TNG. I think the fifth season is my favorite.


But that season three cliffie ... Lord!


----------



## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Because of V I have a weird crush on Michael Ironside that I still can't explain.


Not weird - he's just the right side of creepy.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

lilywhite said:


> But that season three cliffie ... Lord!


That's it -- going in search of V on iTunes...


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

lilywhite said:


> But that season three cliffie ... Lord!


That's The Best of Both Worlds, right? That's one of my top ten episodes ever on any show.


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I was in love with Worf. (Yeah, I said it).


That's because he was sexy as HELL.


----------



## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My friends and I all played V. It was a miniseries (two actually) about aliens. I don't know why that just popped in my head.


I loved that series. I think I might have had a VHS of the entire series somewhere...

I've chatted with Marc Singer at Dragon Con a couple of times. He really is one of the nicest men. He and Sean Maher. And Kris Holden-Reid.


----------



## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Sela said:


>


Haha! I have the secret to your success now and riches shall be mine! 

*rushes off to Etsy to find Victorian bloomers*


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That's The Best of Both Worlds, right? That's one of my top ten episodes ever on any show.


Yes, and I completely agree. I saw that in real-time, and man that was one long-*ss summer. LOL!


----------



## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

> I have a weird crush on Michael Ironside that I still can't explain.


Well yeah, but I mean, who doesn't? Like, seriously?


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Lisa Manifold said:


> And Kris Holden-Reid.


GIRL. Come sit by me and tell me EVERYTHING. Start with: Does he smell as good as he looks? Hot damn.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Lisa Manifold said:


> I loved that series. I think I might have had a VHS of the entire series somewhere...
> 
> I've chatted with Marc Singer at Dragon Con a couple of times. He really is one of the nicest men. He and Sean Maher. And Kris Holden-Reid.


I own both miniseries (and the horrible weekly series). I haven't watched it in a long time. I think it's time for a marathon while editing.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I am an Original Series girl until death! I've got the tattoo to prove it


I'm with you. Kirk was having alien sex before it was cool.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Sela said:


> That's it -- going in search of V on iTunes...


Make sure you get the original. The remake lost a lot of impact the first had. The Nazi allegory was poignant. They replaced it with "religious fervor" in the remake and it was not good.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

D.L. Shutter said:


> Well yeah, but I mean, who doesn't? Like, seriously?


THIS.


----------



## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

lilywhite said:


> GIRL. Come sit by me and tell me EVERYTHING. Start with: Does he smell as good as he looks? Hot damn.


Ehem.
He is TALL. REALLLY TALL.

He smells delish. He is also delightful. I'll tell you a funny story. My sis and I are HUH-YUGE Lost Girl fans. No one who has seen his behind parts can be anything else, IMO. Anyway, we made up tee shirts that said Team Dyson, in homage to when he teases Kenzie about being Team Dyson. He laughed his delish behind off. Took pics with HIS phone for his Twitter.

Then my BIL comes up to meet him, and says, "Hey, I wanted to bring our Pet hair version for you to sign, but the wife said the vacuum took up too much room in the car."

Kris looks at him, and bursts out laughing, saying, "You F*****, that's awesome!" He chatted with the three of us for nearly five minutes, and he had a line.

The entire cast of Lost Girl is going to be there this year. I can't wait.


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Sela said:


> Nothing can compete with ST:NG IMO.


I was TNG's bitch before DS9 came along. TNG's a close second in my heart, but DS9 is where my heart is. I do love me the remastered TOS, though. That's some pretty stuff.

Oh, and the TNG remastered stuff on blu-ray is the bomb. I doubt we'll get the same treatment for DS9, but one can hope.


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> I was TNG's b*tch before DS9 came along. TNG's a close second in my heart, but DS9 is where my heart is. I do love me the remastered TOS, though. That's some pretty stuff.
> 
> Oh, and the TNG remastered stuff on blu-ray is the bomb. I doubt we'll get the same treatment for DS9, but one can hope.


*high fives* DS9 is hands down the best Trek, yes.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Dragovian said:


> V was great! You will never look at Freddy Krueger the same way again when you realize Robert Englund played an adorable lizard alien.


No wonder I was never creeped out by NOES...


----------



## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Chiming in late to say Congratulations, Sela! Those are great numbers!!!!!

And I also believe in everything. I also still miss the X-Files.


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Lisa Manifold said:


> Ehem.
> He is TALL. REALLLY TALL.
> 
> He smells delish. He is also delightful. I'll tell you a funny story.


So jealous!! <3


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Dragovian said:


> *high fives* DS9 is hands down the best Trek, yes.


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> And I also believe in everything. I also still miss the X-Files.


Not for much longer, you don't. EEEEEEE!!

Also, between the Arthas "Let It Go" video and all Trek/Lost Girl/V talk, I have before never felt so very much like I found my tribe. Y'all. *tear*


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

lilywhite said:


> Not for much longer, you don't. EEEEEEE!!


I'm too afraid to get excited until I see previews. Okay, I'm lying. I'm excited!


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I'm too afraid to get excited until I see previews. Okay, I'm lying. I'm excited!


Trust David, Gyllian, and Chris. I'M SO EXCITED!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

lilywhite said:


> Trust David, Gyllian, and Chris. I'M SO EXCITED!


After the movie, I'm afraid to be excited.


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## Joe M (May 23, 2015)

Sela said:


> I would really like to help with specifics, but I will tell you that I did study the best selling books in my genre, re: major tropes and beats in the books. I actually did analysis of the top sellers in contemporary / erotic romance when I decided to write the series that made me the big money. Seriously - I drew up spreadsheets, trying to understand the structure of a bestselling novel, where the rising action was, and what kind of things people liked. I tried to add my own spin and personality in my books -- made them the kind of book I wanted to read. That's all I did.
> 
> I know that sounds kind of airy-fairy because writing an actual book is a whole different thing than analyzing one but in the end, I sat down with an idea for a couple of characters and a situation and the possible complications and wrote. I took a leap of faith that I could do it, and I wrote that book in about 45 days. Had it edited and released it with no idea how it would do since it was a new genre for me.
> 
> I think that's all any of us can do.


Sela, thank you for this. Annie B said something similar in her post and I think thats the biggest takeaway. It's inspiting because It's actionable. Also if anyone is interested in completely geeking out on this process the book "The Story Grid" by Shawn Coyne is all about it.

And to the haters who screw with reviews... Shame on you. Thats someone's livelihood. May the thugs find you in the night and mug you. Or at least break a kneecap and give you an atomic wedgie.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Monique said:


> After the movie, I'm afraid to be excited.


What movie? I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

lilywhite said:


> What movie? I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about.


Hee!


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Sela said:


> The reason I don't reveal my pen name is that there is a contingent among some people who take delight in drive by 1 star reviews and up-voting bad reviews / down voting good reviews.
> 
> This is a screen cap of my current D2D dashboard:
> 
> ...


I think you are wise and do not need to defend yourself.
Yes, 1 stars do happen. If I had to do it over again, I'd have remained anonymous here just for that reason. Some of the reviews/stars were removed by Amazon, but...
I also have someone who has targeted me (they were kicked off), but these things can happen when you put yourself out there.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Just read the last five pages of this wildly off track theme...and have to add...when I was five I asked for a typewriter for Christmas...so I could write _Star Trek_ scripts! I was a Scotty fan, and later, a Captain Picard one.

I had no idea it was already cancelled and in reruns. I did get my typewriter, and a strange look from my parents.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Taking this opportunity to remind everyone that one-starring fellow members here simply because of their posts rather than posting a legitimate review is a bannable offense if we have proof.  Threats to do so are also taken very seriously and members have been banned or put on post approval for doing so.

Let's not go there.

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I've removed several responses to a post, now deleted, that crossed the line. As I said in my prior post, threatening members here with retaliation because of their posts here is taken very seriously.

This thread will remain locked at least for the evening to allow cooling off. Sela, if you want your thread to be reopened, PM me.. It's been pretty well derailed for awhile with Star Trek fandom....

Betsy
KB Mod

_I'm reopening this thread. I've gone through and done some heavy pruning of the last part of the thread, though more could be done earlier in the thread (and may yet be).

The thread will stay open as long as earlier arguments in the thread are not renewed. Agree to disagree.

I'm going out to an early car meet and brunch with my husband; if I keep getting reports (they are pop-ups on my phone) I'm going to be very grumpy. Heads will roll. Be nice. Seriously, folks. There's a separate thread active right now on how to ignore people. Use it if you have to.

--Betsy/KB Mod_


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I've removed several responses to a post, now deleted, that crossed the line. As I said in my prior post, threatening members here with retaliation because of their posts here is taken very seriously.
> 
> This thread will remain locked at least for the evening to allow cooling off. Sela, if you want your thread to be reopened, PM me.. It's been pretty well derailed for awhile with Star Trek fandom....
> 
> ...


Thanks Betsy for pruning and reopening this thread. I hope it can stay open and if anyone finds it in the future and wants to ask a question about my writer's path, they can do so in this thread.

My philosophy in life is this:

Life is very short.

Be nice.

Try to be happy.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Someone did write to me with a couple of questions while the thread was closed so here goes:



> As to my question, it goes back to your early days:
> 
> Regarding your big bump in sales around April 2013 with the launch of your second series (according to your notes you went from less than 1k to $17642 that month) would you attribute the big jump to:
> 
> ...


My first published books were in paranormal romance, which is a huge sub-genra of romance. The #1 paranormal romance book currently is #20 in the Kindle Store so that tells you what a huge audience exists for this kind of book. With a huge audience comes a huge number of authors, and lots of competition. It's really hard to stand out and get traction for many new authors as a result.

When I wrote my first published books, I had NO IDEA about the minutiae of market analysis and understanding what worked and what was selling because at the time, I wasn't reading in the field. I had read it in earlier, but I wasn't at the time so I had no idea about the market. I just wrote my vampire romance books based on my own quirky mind and a long history of liking vampire books and gothic books. My books also included a lot of non-romance world building and religion and history and archaeology and bits of this and that. Some readers enjoyed them and others didn't, and they still have pretty good reviews, all things considered, but they were not bestsellers. I think the subsequent books hit the top 100 in their sub-category at one time or another very briefly during launch or during sales, but otherwise they were not big sellers because I probably was not providing a large number of paranormal romance / vampire romance readers with the kind of read that gets these books into the charts.

I was more familiar with the major bestsellers in erotic romance / contemporary romance when I wrote my second series, since I read many of them. I had an idea of what was currently working. I did my analysis of the top sellers, especially the ones I preferred and would like to do my own take, and I think that is why I had success. It wasn't that I was so much more savvy when it came to marketing. I did no formal launch of any of my early books. I just released them and posted about it on my limited social media accounts. There was no launch team. There was me and my editor posting about it on Facebook and Goodreads. It was enough to get things started and then for that month, I was completely flummoxed as I watched the sales roll in.

It really wasn't until 2014, when I went into a multi-author boxed set and met some very successful authors who had been doing it much more professionally that I got some tips on marketing and promotion. Even then, I was a bit scared to implement them for fear they wouldn't work. These were authors who already hit the NYT or USA Today lists on launch and during sales so I was intimidated to say the least. My releases are still pretty quiet. I have used a book promoter to organize a blog blitz for a couple of my newer books, but I don't always use them. The quality of the blogs taking part is suspect and I think many readers create book blogs just so they can get free books. They don't have much of a readership, IOW. 



> Side question, did you see a big jump in interest in the original three books at that point or were they largely unaffected?


Not much crossover since my original books are paranormal romance and my second series is contemporary erotic romance. The crossover when it happens is usually from my first series to my second, and then a lot of people who actually do like my paranormal books are disappointed in a straight romance because it lacks the whole paranormal world building, which they like. I should have written under a new pen name for my contemporary erotic romance, now that I think of it because there isn't a lot of crossover.

Thanks for the questions!


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## Katherine Stark (Jul 30, 2015)

I have to agree with the comment on blog tours. I personally stopped reading book blogs circa 2013, and while my publisher still expects me to take part in them on my tradpubbed books, I find that they are only marginally useful for getting name/cover awareness raised and little else. For my Katherine Stark books, I've been pretty disappointed with ROI on all the blog tours I've done in every regard except for added Twitter followers/mailing list subscribers. Had no noticeable impact on sales.

My personal gut feeling is that sales rank and getting into Top 100 for a category (or HNR/also-boughts) is the number one way people find ebooks on Amazon. Word of mouth from a select handful of trusted bloggers who talk about books on all the social media avenues are probably way up there, too.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Katherine Stark said:


> I have to agree with the comment on blog tours. I personally stopped reading book blogs circa 2013, and while my publisher still expects me to take part in them on my tradpubbed books, I find that they are only marginally useful for getting name/cover awareness raised and little else. For my Katherine Stark books, I've been pretty disappointed with ROI on all the blog tours I've done in every regard except for added Twitter followers/mailing list subscribers. Had no noticeable impact on sales.
> 
> My personal gut feeling is that sales rank and getting into Top 100 for a category (or HNR/also-boughts) is the number one way people find ebooks on Amazon. Word of mouth from a select handful of trusted bloggers who talk about books on all the social media avenues are probably way up there, too.


I think there are still big book blogs that are worth it if you can get their interest because a lot of readers still find their next read there. Maryse and The Rock Stars of Romance are two I think of for romance. They most definitely get you sales and help during a release. They regularly help put books on the NYT and USA Today lists.


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## Grace Elliot (Mar 14, 2011)

Thank you for being so upfront and helpful. 
Best of luck with the rest of your career!


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## jay_owen (Jan 1, 2015)

Thanks for the additional details Sela -- very informative!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Sela said:


> My books also included a lot of non-romance world building and religion and history and archaeology and bits of this and that. Some readers enjoyed them and others didn't, and they still have pretty good reviews, all things considered, but they were not bestsellers. I think the subsequent books hit the top 100 in their sub-category at one time or another very briefly during launch or during sales, but otherwise they were not big sellers because I probably was not providing a large number of paranormal romance / vampire romance readers with the kind of read that gets these books into the charts.


Did you ever try also categorizing the vampire books as urban fantasy?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Did you ever try also categorizing the vampire books as urban fantasy?


No, I didn't. I wanted to keep them in Romance because I didn't want to make non-romance readers mad.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Sela said:


> No, I didn't. I wanted to keep them in Romance because I didn't want to make non-romance readers mad.


Hmm, yeah, true. There's a blurry line there, though. A lot of UF has a strong romance element. What you're describing -- very strong attention to world-building, really delving into elements that aren't part of the romance structure ... these seem to me like some of the genre dividers.

Dunno. If the romance audience for them flags in the future, it might be worth a try!


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> Hmm, yeah, true. There's a blurry line there, though. A lot of UF has a strong romance element. What you're describing -- very strong attention to world-building, really delving into elements that aren't part of the romance structure ... these seem to me like some of the genre dividers.
> 
> Dunno. If the romance audience for them flags in the future, it might be worth a try!


I second this. I mean, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but if you ever want to give them a little goose up the ranks, I bet that would do it.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Hmm, yeah, true. There's a blurry line there, though. A lot of UF has a strong romance element. What you're describing -- very strong attention to world-building, really delving into elements that aren't part of the romance structure ... these seem to me like some of the genre dividers.
> 
> Dunno. If the romance audience for them flags in the future, it might be worth a try!


Yes, my first books definitely cross genre divides or should I say, do not provide genre readers with their expectations. Those who liked them might think the former, those who didn't, the latter.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Sela said:


> Yes, my first books definitely cross genre divides or should I say, do not provide genre readers with their expectations. Those who liked them might think the former, those who didn't, the latter.


Heh. It's all in the eye of the beholder, eh?


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## SkyScribe (Aug 18, 2014)

Here's a question for Sela that may not have been asked. Why isn't it more? $500k is plenty of scratch, but for those of us who are farther along it may be interesting to hear what you think has held you back.

And I agree about keeping pen name and identity a secret because of the high possibility of negative reviews and votes.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

SkyScribe said:


> Here's a question for Sela that may not have been asked. Why isn't it more? $500k is plenty of scratch, but for those of us who are farther along it may be interesting to hear what you think has held you back.
> 
> And I agree about keeping pen name and identity a secret because of the high possibility of negative reviews and votes.


That's an interesting question...

1. Not all books have a huge audience.

2. My books have never had a big push behind them on release and so they are only going to sell so many copies organically and perhaps take longer to reach a wider audience. The audience is huge and so the problem is getting in front of it.

3. I priced my books at the higher end of the indie spectrum ($4.99), so perhaps if I had priced them lower (99c release / $2.99 regular price) I might have had a bigger impact on release and had more readers and gone wider sooner.

4. Perhaps my books lack that certain _je ne sais quois_ of supersellerdom. One can't explain what that is.

5. My books suck?


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

SkyScribe said:


> Here's a question for Sela that may not have been asked. Why isn't it more? $500k is plenty of scratch, but for those of us who are farther along it may be interesting to hear what you think has held you back.


Not in any way attempting to answer for Sela, but did you notice she's only been self-publishing couple+ years? Her success blows me away.


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## SkyScribe (Aug 18, 2014)

vlmain said:


> Not in any way attempting to answer for Sela, but did you notice she's only been self-publishing couple+ years? Her success blows me away.


The question wasn't criticism or a suggestion that there's something wrong with her books. It just doesn't hurt to take the opposite perspective. If she wasn't marketing that hard or doesn't have a mailing list of her own or doesn't have that many titles out, there may be plenty to do to make the numbers grow even larger.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

SkyScribe said:


> The question wasn't criticism or a suggestion that there's something wrong with her books. It just doesn't hurt to take the opposite perspective. If she wasn't marketing that hard or doesn't have a mailing list of her own or doesn't have that many titles out, there may be plenty to do to make the numbers grow even larger.


I agree with this -- further thoughts:

First is Promotion: I didn't start marketing using Facebook until April when I found Mark Dawson, May All Praise His Mighty Marketing Wisdom. Since then, have seen a considerable increase in my income but generally Facebook ads for lower priced books are less of a ROI. Facebook itself, as in regular posts, are good for getting existing readers to buy but not reach new.

Second is price: I have always priced in a way that might have kept me off the top 100 during release, although I have seen authors with even higher launch prices hit the top 10 so it comes down to a constellation of factors and some books really do only have a certain size of audience. It never occurred to me to price at 99c on release because I never knew how well I would sell and didn't want to leave money on the table if sales were only going to be modest. Plus there is pressure from some parts of the indie romance author world NOT to release at 99c.

Third is small launches: I didn't get a mailing list until this year. It's growing but it is still small and about 6,000+ members. I hope to use it later on with new releases to boost sales.

Still, there are authors who hit the ball out of the park with their first book so it may in the end come down to the actual books and the size of their audience. I'm still hoping for that one book in that new series that will put me in your league.


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## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

So awesome of you to post this. Congrats on your success. And thank you.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Sela, congrats on your success and thanks for sharing all the juicy details!


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I thought I'd already said this, but it seems I was mistaken:  Thanks for this thread, and all the screencaps. Very informative and inspiring.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Sela said:


> That's an interesting question...
> 
> 1. Not all books have a huge audience.
> 
> ...


I have a question. I'm picking up steam on Barnes and Nobles, but ibooks is awful. I think their search engines must suck super bad. Is there anything special you did over there to get attention that you can share, or does it just take more time over there? I've asked several authors this and most of them say it takes awhile to get traction on ibooks, but it's worth it if you hang in there.


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## KinkyWriter (Mar 17, 2015)

Hey Sela!
Very inspiring indeed 

Question - if you were to start over and publish today... Would you go wide from the beginning or start with KU2?

(not sure if this was already asked)


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> I have a question. I'm picking up steam on Barnes and Nobles, but ibooks is awful. I think their search engines must suck super bad. Is there anything special you did over there to get attention that you can share, or does it just take more time over there? I've asked several authors this and most of them say it takes awhile to get traction on ibooks, but it's worth it if you hang in there.


Do you have a permafree first in series? I think that did it for me.

Apple promoted my first in series and WOWWOWWOW did I have a great month as a result with FANTASTIC sell through on the other series books. ETA: It wasn't my best month, but I had just come off four six months of KU 1.0 HELL and so at the time, getting back to a 5 figure month was such a relief... I know that sounds greedy of me but hey, I'm human. 

See that big jump in March 2015? That was mostly due to Apple promoting my permafree. My permafree performed less well on Amazon, interestingly enough. I think Amazon has a contingent of readers who pick up every free book out there but who don't get around to picking up the next in series. Maybe Apple readers are not yet as conditioned to do so. April was so good because I took Mark Dawson's course and learned how to create effective Facebook ads for my boxed sets. Then in May I had a free Bookbub that way outperformed my previous 99c Bookbubs I had done with them before, especially on iBooks. Plus I had a new release so it all multiplied.

Interestingly enough, Apple promoted the second book in a series of mine (the paranormal) and crickets. I sold maybe one or two books more a day since the promo. *shrugs*


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

KinkyWriter said:


> Hey Sela!
> Very inspiring indeed
> 
> Question - if you were to start over and publish today... Would you go wide from the beginning or start with KU2?
> ...


If you write full-length books in series, I would probably advise going KDPS / KU2 until the series is done to see if I could get traction on Amazon before going wide. Amazon still is the best platform on which to sell your books in general, but once you have a solid audience for your series, I would definitely go wide to expand it even more. I would always try to time going wide with other promotions, maybe a new release, a free Bookbub and would most definitely go permafree with the first in your series. It's not a guarantee of success, since nothing is, but it has worked for a lot of authors.


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## missnibbles (Aug 13, 2015)

Thank you for sharing all your information!  You're amazing!


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## KinkyWriter (Mar 17, 2015)

Sela said:


> If you write full-length books in series, I would probably advise going KDPS / KU2 until the series is done to see if I could get traction on Amazon before going wide. Amazon still is the best platform on which to sell your books in general, but once you have a solid audience for your series, I would definitely go wide to expand it even more. I would always try to time going wide with other promotions, maybe a new release, a free Bookbub and would most definitely go permafree with the first in your series. It's not a guarantee of success, since nothing is, but it has worked for a lot of authors.


THANK YOU <3


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Sela said:


> Do you have a permafree first in series? I think that did it for me.
> 
> Apple promoted my first in series and WOWWOWWOW did I have a great month as a result with FANTASTIC sell through on the other series books. ETA: It wasn't my best month, but I had just come off four six months of KU 1.0 HELL and so at the time, getting back to a 5 figure month was such a relief... I know that sounds greedy of me but hey, I'm human.
> 
> ...


I have a permafree, but it's erotica and that gets held down. I have a new dark romance pen name that isn't erotica at all, so that's why I was asking. I'm trying to decide if I should start out wide with that. Maybe I'll try it with a permafree first and see how it goes. I'll check out Mark Dawson's course. I've been wondering about Facebooks lately. Thank you.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Sela do your fb ads point to zon, or do you do other retailers to?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

DGS said:


> Sela do your fb ads point to FB, or do you do other retailers to?


They point to Amazon. I have tried to target iOS users to access Apple customers on FB but with little luck. I may work on that next. Or, point the viewers to my website with links to all other retailers but it's one extra click and you tend to lose a certain number that way.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Sela said:


> They point to Amazon. I have tried to target iOS users to access Apple customers on FB but with little luck. I may work on that next. Or, point the viewers to my website with links to all other retailers but it's one extra click and you tend to lose a certain number that way.


Oops, yeah that's what I meant. I think directly to retailer is best for the same reason.


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## FMH (May 18, 2013)

Sela said:


>


Sela - I love you for this thread, but mostly for this photo response.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I was in love with Worf. (Yeah, I said it).


Oh, me too! That voice ... still makes me weak in the knees.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Sela -- thanks so much for your wonderful posts! They're highly inspirational. 

I have a question: You said that you write/wrote in several romance subgenres (paranormal, contemporary). Have you done this under the same pen? 

What's your opinion on cross-advertising your pens to your readers?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Sela -- thanks so much for your wonderful posts! They're highly inspirational.
> 
> I have a question: You said that you write/wrote in several romance subgenres (paranormal, contemporary). Have you done this under the same pen?
> 
> What's your opinion on cross-advertising your pens to your readers?


I did all four series under the same pen name. I wrote my paranormal romance series first and then moved to contemporary erotic romance after publishing 3 books in the PNR series. There was no doubt some crossover from the PNR to CER so it was certainly of benefit to use the same pen name.

HOWEVER, some of my PNR readers don't like CER because they find the stories too romance-y and not enough world building. They like the fantastical. So there have been some who have read my CER and been "meh" but that's okay. I don't think I get as much crossover from CER to PNR although I have had a few readers email me to say "I don't normally do vampires but I loved your books so much, I gave them a try!" etc. I've converted them to the dark side LOL. That always feels good. 

I only have one active pen name but am working on several projects long-term that will go under two different new pen names. One will be SF and the other will be Epic Fantasy. I'm still thinking of whether to do a male pen name for the SF. It's not romance so I don't want the male readers to avoid my book for fear of girl cooties...  I will NOT have any links from any SF books to my romance books and will not cross promote.

I have tended to advertise on FB for my three boxed sets (1 PNR and 2 CER) using two different sets pf comparator books / authors and only if a FB user lists both as interests will they get both sets of ads for my boxed sets.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

This is so impressive … the fact that you published PNR and CER under same pen name. I asked several other writers about publishing different subs under same pen name and they were against it, saying that mixing genres tends to estrange readers. But it obviously worked for you.

Being able to publish different subs under same name definitely seems like a lot less work.  I mean, tending to two mailing lists, two FB profiles, two Twitter accounts … even two blogs (maybe?) is a loooot of work I'd rather spend writing. Apart from the time factor, doing everything double does dilute both energy and inspiration in my experience.  

BTW, what are comparator books? Books you indicated as comparable to yours? I don't know anything about how FB ads work, I'm afraid. I signed up for Mark Dawson's method immediately after I read you mention it, but haven't had time to go through the course yet.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jessie Jasen said:


> This is so impressive ... the fact that you published PNR and CER under same pen name. I asked several other writers about publishing different subs under same pen name and they were against it, saying that mixing genres tends to estrange readers. But it obviously worked for you.
> 
> Being able to publish different subs under same name definitely seems like a lot less work.  I mean, tending to two mailing lists, two FB profiles, two Twitter accounts ... even two blogs (maybe?) is a loooot of work I'd rather spend writing. Apart from the time factor, doing everything double does dilute both energy and inspiration in my experience.
> 
> BTW, what are comparator books? Books you indicated as comparable to yours? I don't know anything about how FB ads work, I'm afraid. I signed up for Mark Dawson's method immediately after I read you mention it, but haven't had time to go through the course yet.


When I started, I planned on writing paranormal romance and so wasn't planning on doing CER. Maybe Rom Suspense if anything else. But I decided to give it a go and it was a good idea.

When you join up in Mark's course, and join the group, you will see my threads on my results with all the details (other than my pen name, but a few members know who I am because they were served my ads LOL.)


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Wow! Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Sela said:


> When I started, I planned on writing paranormal romance and so wasn't planning on doing CER. Maybe Rom Suspense if anything else. But I decided to give it a go and it was a good idea.
> 
> When you join up in Mark's course, and join the group, you will see my threads on my results with all the details (other than my pen name, but a few members know who I am because they were served my ads LOL.)


How far can you push subgenre mixing in romance under one pen name in your opinion? Would you dare add romantic suspense to your pen name? 
IMO, mixing books with erotic scenes with sweet romance is a very bad idea and haven't seen anyone do that successfully so far&#8230; What do you think?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jessie Jasen said:


> How far can you push subgenre mixing in romance under one pen name in your opinion? Would you dare add romantic suspense to your pen name?
> IMO, mixing books with erotic scenes with sweet romance is a very bad idea and haven't seen anyone do that successfully so far... What do you think?


Definitely keep everything the same level of eroticism. Which I did.  Pretty much everything I write in romance is erotic.

Now, my SF and High Fantasy will not be so I would use new pen name(s).


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Sela, thanks a lot for this! 

I've been wondering too how you used excel spreadsheets to map out the books while doing your genre research. How did you do it? I'd love and appreciate tremendously to see an example, if possible.  I have enormous trouble imagining how you did it.  

I'm great at imagining stories, but terrible at writing things down, and disecting and analyzing books as a writer, which--as I've learned--is my weak spot, so I'm working hard on improving. 

Side note: I hope I'm not bugging you too much with my questions.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Side note: I hope I'm not bugging you too much with my questions.


Obviously I'm not Sela and can't speak for her but I'm digging your questions because they're educational and relevant. The answers are gold to a learning writer so they have a lot of value.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Thanks stoney. I hope Sela feels the same way.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Sela said:


> Definitely keep everything the same level of eroticism. Which I did.  Pretty much everything I write in romance is erotic.
> 
> Now, my SF and High Fantasy will not be so I would use new pen name(s).


Not an author but I'd agree with this. There was a writer once -- this was quite a while ago -- who I quite liked. Then she started writing different stuff . . . . I guess the decision was, use the same name 'cause folks recognize it. But the different stuff was . . . let's just say _very different_. I mean, not even related. Also a higher level of steaminess, though that didn't bother _me_ particularly. I think it might have some others, though. 

Sure the writing was still good, but the type of book was so different to the other series I'd enjoyed that it felt like I was in some Bizarro universe. I think I would rather have seen a different pen name, even if there was a notation that the person also wrote under the name I knew. That would have been a bigger clue that it was Something Completely Different. And I'd have been more prepared and wouldn't have found the shift quite so jarring -- or maybe I'd have decided to take a pass. Remember, this was before one could go on anything but the write up on the back of the book -- which didn't, as I recall, give any indication of the change in style. There was no horde of reviewers to say, "Whoa, Nelly; this book is a totally different animal from the rest of her titles so be warned!"


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Sela, thanks a lot for this!
> 
> I've been wondering too how you used excel spreadsheets to map out the books while doing your genre research. How did you do it? I'd love and appreciate tremendously to see an example, if possible.  I have enormous trouble imagining how you did it.
> 
> ...


Not bugging at all. 

I have no idea where the original spreadsheets are since I am using a totally different computer now but i did have columns for each component i was analyzing for the top sellers that I wanted my book to be associated with:

e.g.

Title
Author
Rank
Categories
Length
Point of View
Chapters
Cover Style
Tropes?
Hero 
Heroine
Sex by what chapter?
Major Complications
When do the complications occur?

I took a couple of books that I really wanted to be compared to and did a more in-depth analysis of their structure, in terms of the Save The Cat method of analysis -- the 15-point plot structure and beat sheets. You have to adapt this to the novel form and length, but it helps to get an overall understanding of the novel's structure.



Okay, when I look at this, it seems so analytical, but I was an analyst by profession so that's the way I approach anything.  I tend to use the Blake Snyder technique for every book I write so I can control for pace and overall structure.

Sela <--- control freak.


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## MikeDavidson (Oct 5, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> Actually, there are six figure authors on these very boards who have never done a book bub ad. They are not the end all and be all. They just help a lot.


I never did bookbub... You can make it without them


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

Sela,

Just a note to thank you for your generosity, kindness, and common sense.  It is a lovely combination, and I wish you all the best


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Sela said:


> Not bugging at all.
> 
> I have no idea where the original spreadsheets are since I am using a totally different computer now but i did have columns for each component i was analyzing for the top sellers that I wanted my book to be associated with:
> 
> ...


First of all, thanks so much for taking time to post this! It's very detailed and makes total sense.
Funny thing is, I just put down John Truby's The Analyses of Story (22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller). The book is incredibly detailed, with highly compressed information on almost 500 pages that I've digested in three days (leaving me to feel like I'm 2 minutes from maddness  ) LOL It was mentioned in several instances in Take Your Pants Off! and I decided to give it a go.

Truby has his plot structure slightly different. He claims that the story has a minimum of seven steps (written below) and that it start with a

1. Plot

(Seven Steps)
2. Weakness and need
3. Desire
4. Opponent
5. Plan
6. Battle
7. Self-revelation
8. New equilibrium

9. Character
10. Theme (Moral Argument)
11. Story World
12. Symbol Web
13. Plot
14. Scene Weave
15. Scene Construction and Symphonic Dialogue

Now, Truby's advice is on how to begin outlining your story. As you can see, it varies from Snyder's. Basically, both systems will lead to same results, but they break down the process in slightly different ways. I find your questions poignant, since they deal with the basics of what you must look out for when deciding to write in genre, whereas the two gentlemen deal with the semantics of storytelling.  
I'm not sure if Truby's system is really applicable in romance, since a) the plots tend to be rather simple than intricate, b) he wrote his system with complex stories in mind (The Godfather, Citizen Kane, Tootsie, Game of Thrones, etc.), but it's good to know them.

What I'm going to do is start with answering your questions, as they are absolutely crucial to genre research. You just can't do without. Then, since I'm into novelist masochism and I like to torture myself with learning, I will let the plots of the books seep through both systems, Snyder's and Truby's. I'm curious to see what will come out. 

Thanks so much, Sela! You're such a wonderful and generous person!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jessie Jasen said:


> What I'm going to do is start with answering your questions, as they are absolutely crucial to genre research. You just can't do without. Then, since I'm into novelist masochism and I like to torture myself with learning, I will let the plots of the books seep through both systems, Snyder's and Truby's. I'm curious to see what will come out.
> 
> Thanks so much, Sela! You're such a wonderful and generous person!


No problem!

As a reader, I've never thought much about story structure. I just consumed the books I read without much thought. As an aspiring writer, I used to think "I want to write a book like Motherless Brooklyn or Game of Thrones or The Fault in Our Stars but what is it about those books that made them so great for me? It's not the quality of prose -- however you define quality. It's the way the story is told. It's the way the story feels. It's the characters and their paths. It's the satisfying way it all comes together and comes to an end. That's a skill that you can develop and hone.

If you read a LOT, you tend to absorb that story structure. Some lucky authors don't even have to outline. They have story structure so internalized that they sit down and pants it out. I'm not one of those authors. I have ideas, I have images and scenes, I have characters. I have what if's. Sometimes, I have a conflict that I think is interesting or a set up. But to actually complete a novel, I need to know where I'm going and what's happening. That's the way I am as a writer. I need to see the structure and once I see it, I sit down and am a totally linear writer. I write from the start and don't stop until the book is done. So I find Blake Snyder and Syd Field and all the other plot and structure books so helpful. I need a road map in other words. Put me out on the road without one and I'm lost. I'll take a side road and never get to the destination.

Some lucky authors so internalize the genre they are writing that they don't need to externalize it, put it up on a plot paradigm drawing or table or detailed chapter by chapter outline.

I'm not one of those lucky few.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

I doubt there are many who don't need an outline and write highly complex plots.  If the plot is simple, it's probably doable, but a mammoth like Game of Thrones is probably not doable. Pantsing can take longer too. I'm a pantser (was--now I'm recovering). I realize the quality of my books has suffered because of it, although I can write a novel out of my head in two weeks and have been reading Pulitzer Prize winners since age 12.

Speaking of great books, in Take Your Pants Off! the author argues that the most important part of a book is pacing. She claims that pacing can make or break a story. 
Intrestingly, neither Truby nor Snyder (for what I can judge from your table) mention pacing. Do you pay attention to pacing when you write?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jessie Jasen said:


> I doubt there are many who don't need an outline and write highly complex plots.  If the plot is simple, it's probably doable, but a mammoth like Game of Thrones is probably not doable. Pantsing can take longer too. I'm a pantser (was--now I'm recovering). I realize the quality of my books has suffered because of it, although I can write a novel out of my head in two weeks and have been reading Pulitzer Prize winners since age 12.
> 
> Speaking of great books, in Take Your Pants Off! the author argues that the most important part of a book is pacing. She claims that pacing can make or break a story.
> Intrestingly, neither Truby nor Snyder (for what I can judge from your table) mention pacing. Do you pay attention to pacing when you write?


Snyder doesn't mention pacing in the outline but the entire project is about pacing and that nice circular structure that has a satisfying beginning middle and end in a particular length of time (or pages in a novel). The purpose of the beat sheet is to have beats, or major moments, at prescribed junctures in the story. It leads from one part to the next and tends to keep the pace up if you can get it to work.

Without an outline, my sections could get way too long or be too short and meander off and die from boxing myself into a corner. I start out with a length in mind and plot it out based on the four act structure. I tend to appoint a certain number of pages per act and try to plot out each act with the main events complications beats -- whatever you call them. The I sit down and writ by the pants in between major beats. I try to see whether the finished product resembles my final outline at the end and it usually does pretty closely.

Right now I'm writing the final act of my newest novel and am working up to the climax and resolution. That's why I've been procrastinating for the past week.  I have a deadline coming up and nothing gets the words to bung up like a deadline. 

click to see image

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Jenna_Elle (Mar 15, 2015)

Sela said:


> Not bugging at all.
> 
> I have no idea where the original spreadsheets are since I am using a totally different computer now but i did have columns for each component i was analyzing for the top sellers that I wanted my book to be associated with:
> 
> ...


I love this! I just made a similar one based on Larry brooks story engineering to help me outline my next book!
Maybe it's an analyst thing. Excel = my life at my day job


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

If anyone follows the link to my photobucket page and sees covers for Jana Janeway, you should know I am working on some covers for her. We are trying various red-haired young women in various poses to find a series that feels both paranormal and romance and suspense and fits with her books. If anyone wants to volunteer comments or help with the covers, both Jana and I would appreciate the feedback. 

In other words, I am not Jana Janeway, in case you are not familiar with the thread where Jana asked for help and I offered.  Nothing that there's anything wrong with being Jana Janeway.  

She's a really sweet lady.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Re:  pacing. The plot structure you use should take care of that. Follow the beats, and you'll be paced right for the genre.

Re:  Mengliad covers. I like the second, with the woman looking out. Like the texture, too. Don't know if you added that, or it came that way, but it looks nice.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Re: pacing. The plot structure you use should take care of that. Follow the beats, and you'll be paced right for the genre.
> 
> Re: Mengliad covers. I like the second, with the woman looking out. Like the texture, too. Don't know if you added that, or it came that way, but it looks nice.


When you say "plot structure" are you referring to Snyder's plot structure Sela showed?

Covers: I like the second page with the covers. Regarding font, I'd opt for a serif font. They tend to have a dreamy quality to them that fits with fantasy IMO.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Sela, thanks a lot for this!
> 
> I've been wondering too how you used excel spreadsheets to map out the books while doing your genre research. How did you do it? I'd love and appreciate tremendously to see an example, if possible.  I have enormous trouble imagining how you did it.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to butt in to mention if you want to do analysis using spreadsheets, it's worth checking out Jami Gold's website (jamigold.com). She has beat sheets you can download for a bunch of different story structure methods like the Hero's Journey and Save the Cat. I use them all the time for writing but they'd work just as well for doing analysis of bestsellers. I'd never though of doing that with them myself until just then.

She also has a blog post (I don't have it bookmarked) with a link to another blog where the blogger does breakdowns of story structure according to the Hero's Journey. It's most popular fiction and movies but even just looking at how she does it and applying the methodology to your own subgenre would be really helpful.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Sela said:


> Sela <--- control freak.


Many of us appreciate it.



Sela said:


> Some lucky authors so internalize the genre they are writing that they don't need to externalize it, put it up on a plot paradigm drawing or table or detailed chapter by chapter outline.
> 
> I'm not one of those lucky few.


Seeing your success, it heartens me to know that I'm not alone in that.


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

Sela,

Just caught up reading all seventeen pages. Great post! Congratulations on all of your success and more to follow, I am sure.

I've been heads down for days trying to finish the 3rd book in my series. I'm almost there; thus, procrastination has set in as I near the finish line and wonder about the launch and what is next. There is lots of good advice in the comments for many to pick up and run with, too.  

Again, congrats, Sela!!

edited for typos.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

SkyScribe said:


> Here's a question for Sela that may not have been asked. Why isn't it more? $500k is plenty of scratch, but for those of us who are farther along it may be interesting to hear what you think has held you back.
> 
> And I agree about keeping pen name and identity a secret because of the high possibility of negative reviews and votes.


A bit off-topic but is it a practice writers to write negative reviews just because someone is successful? Writers are also readers, right? Is a 3-star review negative feedback if it's an honest review?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Antara Man said:


> A bit off-topic but is it a practice writers to write negative reviews just because someone is successful? Writers are also readers, don't' forget. Is 3-star review negative feedback is it's an honest review?


Writers _are_ readers, but writers are also business competitors and Amazon does not take kindly to a competing author writing negative reviews (or positive reviews for that matter) on another author's books. It's seen as a conflict of interest and will be removed. Joe Konrath has written about this and is against the policy but it's hard to police this sort of thing. It's well known in the indie community that some authors themselves or their street teams go around down-voting bad reviews and up-voting good ones, leaving negative reviews on other author books, etc. Plus, it can be a vendetta thing between authors or between authors and readers, etc. Some of the stuff I have seen is UG-LY.

The reason I don't use my pen name is that I don't want to get involved in ANY controversy. I'm not so big that I can weather a slew of 1-stars delivered because of envy or anger or political dispute.


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## chalice (Jan 5, 2013)

Sela said:


> I have thought of intertwining them. My next series is about three men who work together and their romances. I figure each man will have a three book series in which they meet, fall in love, and marry the woman of their dreams.


*When I first read that sentence my immediate thought was that it was going to be a love triangle gay romance. I was ready to fist pump until I read to the end. Oh well.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.

Best regards,
Shana Jahsinta Walters.*


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## Michelle Hughes (Dec 12, 2011)

Sela said:


> In the spirit of Annie B's post showing us the tale of two approaches to writing, I thought I'd share my story. I will likely pass the $500,000.00 in career income next month, unless Amazon implodes or an asteroid strikes.  (And I'm not really a big seller or big name author in my genre)
> 
> WOW... I've been balking at the $320 price tag for Bookbub but I see so many authors hitting huge from that site.


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