# Writing at Pulp Speed private group (Monthly call for new members)



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I imagine this'll drop like a rock like most posts on Dean Wesley Smith hereabouts, but I found his latest on 'pulp speed' pretty inspiring.

http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/the-new-world-of-writing-pulp-speed/

Jan 2016 update: Read the thread; if it sounds like a fit, PM me your gmail+ email address and I'll add you to the group.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

Great post.

Boils down to this, quite simply:

- You can write more fiction by spending more time writing fiction instead of setting artificial limitations on yourself.

- Writing fast does not = typing fast. It just means spending more time in the chair.

Really inspirational.


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## Darren Kirby (Oct 6, 2014)

Personally I really enjoy reading DWS's blog posts.  He gives a very unique perspective on the business that isn't heard elsewhere (or if it is, I'm not aware of it).  It is precisely because he and his wife have decades in the business, and that they refer back to others who (at the time) had decades of experience themselves, that makes him a voice to at least consider when pulling in information to a writer's world.  One doesn't have to agree with him, but he has earned respect because of his longevity - which is what many of us authors desire, longevity in writing our works.  His isn't the only route to success, but it's a well-traveled road that provides an easier path for those of us who follow behind.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I write at pulp speed. I find the more I write, the easier it is to write.

And with that, I'm going to BACK to writing. Need a 10k+ day today

Correction, I am Pulp Speed .5


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I write at pulp speed. I find the more I write, the easier it is to write.
> 
> And with that, I'm going to BACK to writing. Need a 10k+ day today


Me too.

7k down, 3k to go... meet you at the finish line!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I thought it also really drove home the math of productivity. Write a couple hours a day consistently, and the words and stories really pile up.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

Russel came to mind. Anybody read his plans for 2015? Gawd.

My four novels and 12 serials goal now seems lazy.


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

i write at pulp speeds, too. 110,000 words last month. Plan to write at pulp one or two every month for this coming year.

I write part time.

One big take away from the article for me is the line "every writer has a different method, a different path. No one way is right for every writer." which a lot of people who read the post will miss.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

I used to read DWS's blog regularly. The only reason his posts go unnoticed lately is I find his writing in public or whatever he calls it boring. A month to show people how he does it? Sure. Years? Unh unh.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

ellenoc said:


> I used to read DWS's blog regularly. The only reason his posts go unnoticed lately is I find his writing in public or whatever he calls it boring. A month to show people how he does it? Sure. Years? Unh unh.


Check out his newer Writing in Public posts. He's doing a topic every night now. There's always a gem of advice in there.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

ellenoc said:


> I used to read DWS's blog regularly. The only reason his posts go unnoticed lately is I find his writing in public or whatever he calls it boring. A month to show people how he does it? Sure. Years? Unh unh.


I think that's part of the brilliance of the series, though. It's relatively 'easy' to show what a pro writer's life is like over the course of a month. To carry the same practice over the course of a year, though, that's something else. He's posted every day for a year plus. He and Kris talk about streaks a lot and he has one monstrous streak going on right now (not to mention consistent releases of his monthly magazine). I don't read every daily post, but just seeing them there day after day is inspiring.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm working up slowly. I wrote and published three shorts last month (OK, one was an expanded version of an earlier short, but most of it was new words and the rest were rewritten), and a Nano novel that will need a lot of work. That would be close to his pulp speed one, if the novel was actually publishable in its current state.

Planning to write and publish five shorts this month, which would legitimately be about half his pulp speed one level. Already hit 'publish' on the first one, and two more are sketched out and partially written.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I confess that I'd also drifted away from reading it regularly because of the shift to daily updates rather than longer posts on craft & business.  However, those little topic of the day bits are a good way to mix the two - so thanks for the heads-up, I'm reading back through his blog now!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm glad I went back to reading his posts more regularly too. His appeciation for The Voice got me hooked on the show, and his comments on how the judges' advice applied to writing really do make sense.


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> I'm glad I went back to reading his posts more regularly too. *His appeciation for The Voice got me hooked on the show, and his comments on how the judges' advice applied to writing really do make sense.*


Ditto!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Chrissy said:


> Ditto!


Oooh, snap! I loff the Neo badge and have taken your wordsmithery technological signature distinctiveness and added it to my own.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

I'm on my tablet so I can't quote.  RKC said something important about typing speed.  That reminded me of a DWS post on his typing speed or words per minute.  I can't remember the number, but I recall it seemed low when considering his output.  But thinking about it now, I suspect it is part of the reason he is a successful one drafter.  He has more time to develop exactly what he is going to say and how he will say it.  For example, I type very slow on my tablet when I post here, but I also don't need to revise as much thanks to that slowness.  More time to think, and more deliberation.  What do you think, all?


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

That's a great article. I've always been a big fan of the pulp authors of old and their amazing writing speed and work ethic.

As for myself, I'm nowhere near pulp speed yet, but I notice that I get steadily more prolific and that my work get cleaner the faster I write. I just finished two mystery novelettes (No. 5 and 6 in a series started in August) in appox. two weeks.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Weirdling said:


> I'm on my tablet so I can't quote. RKC said something important about typing speed. That reminded me of a DWS post on his typing speed or words per minute. I can't remember the number, but I recall it seemed low when considering his output. But thinking about it now, I suspect it is part of the reason he is a successful one drafter. He has more time to develop exactly what he is going to say and how he will say it. For example, I type very slow on my tablet when I post here, but I also don't need to revise as much thanks to that slowness. More time to think, and more deliberation. What do you think, all?


I don't remember which blog post(s) he discussed writing speed, but in some of his lectures and workshop videos, he mentions that he's generally a six-fingered typist, and he types as fast as those six fingers allow, somewhere around 1000-1200 words an hour. He's admitted numerous times that he calls that a 'slow' typist. I've never gotten the sense that he spends a lot of time deliberating what he's going to write as he writes it. He just lets it spill out onto the page as fast as he can write it. He's an effective one drafter because he's been writing for 30+ years.

He's also mentioned that one of his 'drafts' is essentially a spell-check. FWIW, anyway.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I think this can be scary to new writers, but if you study writing you'd see that writing fast like this is how some of the best writers we know today did it. Lawrence Block is another, and his book Writing the Novel is a fantastic read (as are his others).

When I take Dean's advice and just write, I can easily do 6K or more words a day. Usually in about four to five hours, depending on how often I take bathroom breaks, do small household tasks, etc. I find these words are generally nearly perfect for publishing, needing only a spelling/typo check and maybe some minor plot adjustments (or just remember the MC's name is John and not Joe).

So: butt in chair, fingers on keyboard; turn of the editor's voice; refrain from major rewrites (and if you can, don't rewrite at all); publish.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Great article! I've done a lot of study of pulp writers, and I'm aiming for that level of production next year. My biggest challenge is fixing the need for revision. I'm getting closer. The problem is I can be a sloppy writer sometimes. I just need to slow down and produce cleaner sentences and scenes as I go. 

I used to check in on Dean's blog regularly, but because of all the daily word count posts and my now limited time on the Internet (30 minutes each day), I had stopped visiting.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Happy to read the responses to this. Y'all proved my OP comment wrong.  I'm leaning toward starting a pulp speed thread for 2015 that can be used to update each other on progress, and get inspiration and so forth from each other. Dunno if there's a need for it, but I know I can use the accountability and a place to 'check in' with like-minded folks.


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Happy to read the responses to this. Y'all proved my OP comment wrong.  I'm leaning toward starting a pulp speed thread for 2015 that can be used to update each other on progress, and get inspiration and so forth from each other. Dunno if there's a need for it, but I know I can use the accountability and a place to 'check in' with like-minded folks.


Great idea, Jim.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Happy to read the responses to this. Y'all proved my OP comment wrong.  I'm leaning toward starting a pulp speed thread for 2015 that can be used to update each other on progress, and get inspiration and so forth from each other. Dunno if there's a need for it, but I know I can use the accountability and a place to 'check in' with like-minded folks.


I like that idea a lot. Accountability and support are good things.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Happy to read the responses to this. Y'all proved my OP comment wrong.  I'm leaning toward starting a pulp speed thread for 2015 that can be used to update each other on progress, and get inspiration and so forth from each other. Dunno if there's a need for it, but I know I can use the accountability and a place to 'check in' with like-minded folks.


Count me in!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Just bought dragon naturally speaking for my Mac. A year ago I tried this but I wasn't back "writing" yet, and this afternoon in 30 min I had 550 words!! I was slower because I had to say my punctuation and it's still learning my speech patterns, but I am impressed! If I can get to 1,000 words in 30 min I can double my word counts! I usually write 600-1,000 an hour so this is huge!! And with my sony digital recorder I can write by dictation anywhere and have dragon transcribe it.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Jim Johnson said:


> Happy to read the responses to this. Y'all proved my OP comment wrong.  I'm leaning toward starting a pulp speed thread for 2015 that can be used to update each other on progress, and get inspiration and so forth from each other. Dunno if there's a need for it, but I know I can use the accountability and a place to 'check in' with like-minded folks.


I had started something on a private forum last year with his first 100k month post in the hopes I would up my word count. I know "life interfered" is usually an excuse, but life interfered. If we get virtual star trek badges, I'm in. My 2015 goal is 500k new words published. Not the million for warp speed 1, but he does say it has to be worked up to that rate.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

A pulp speed badge is a great idea. I'll leave that to the people good with image manipulation skills.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Christa Wick said:


> My 2015 goal is 500k new words published. Not the million for warp speed 1, but he does say it has to be worked up to that rate.


Great goal! I think the goal I'll shoot for with the thread is to focus on writing new words at pulp speed, rather than number of products. I think the hope is that we'll publish most of what we write, but the first goal (for me anyway) is to get word production up to that speed consistently.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Pulp speed badges are a great idea. Though I confess: I need to figure out how badges work. I see them, but I don't understand them. Yet. 

My big goal for 2015 is 720,000 words. Basically, a novel of 60,000 words each month. Some of my books are longer, some shorter. My little goal is 600,000 words. That's the crap, life happened and I lost two months of writing goal.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Pulp speed badges are a great idea. Though I confess: I need to figure out how badges work. I see them, but I don't understand them. Yet.


Check this thread. Badges are kboards fun things to add to your signature if you want.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

So are we going to have a thread for pulp speed  daily check ins?  my goals are ambitious but I'm no longer afraid of physical injury from writing thanks to dictation. I'm dictating this right now.

I honestly expected maybe 100 or so words through dictation, but this is so easy I just talk and talk and talk and it types. And I'm not even weirded out by hearing my own voice anymore!  even if I only manage to dictate half of my writing that would be a huge relief on my current work stress related injuries.  I'm already in physical therapy three times a week. Having the system will make life so much easier. In my mind can't even wrap around the idea that dictation might double, triple, or even quadruple the amount of words and used writing in an hour. That's insane! 

Get  thee  a dragon,  oh  worthy knight!    (yes you can dictate smiley faces by saying  "smiley face" )


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

I'd have to read some of his prose to see if pulp speed is worth the paper it's printed on.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> So are we going to have a thread for pulp speed daily check ins? my goals are ambitious but I'm no longer afraid of physical injury from writing thanks to dictation.


That's the intent, yes, Elizabeth.  I'm intrigued by your using Dragon. Do you talk into a recorder and then play the recorder next to your Mac to pick up the audio that it then transcribes? Do you talk in complete sentences much as it would appear in a manuscript or do you sort of ramble into Dragon and then clean it up?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Deke said:


> I'd have to read some of his prose to see if pulp speed is worth the paper it's printed on.


I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Judging quality of writing, no matter what speed it was written at, is so subjective. I've read several of his short stories and novels and enjoyed the reads.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> That's the intent, yes, Elizabeth.  I'm intrigued by your using Dragon. Do you talk into a recorder and then play the recorder next to your Mac to pick up the audio that it then transcribes? Do you talk in complete sentences much as it would appear in a manuscript or do you sort of ramble into Dragon and then clean it up?


 okay it's 4:04 PM my time. I am going to dictate this entire response. I wrote today for the first time using dictation, from 2:02 PM to 2:33 PM and had 550 words. I did have to go in every two or three lines and adjust with type but that's because it's still learning what I mean when I talk. It had a real hard time with Lady Catherine to Burke see? That should be Lady Catherine de Bourgh (typed this). the tutorial said to try to just speak naturally and not worry about editing until you are done, but I confess this is hard for me to do. In fact, I didn't do that.

For this first test, I used the headset that came with my Dragon for PC last year. That's it I'm using right now to but I also have a Sony digital recorder and I tested that when I was waiting in the carpool lane for my daughter. Five minutes of talking into that transcribed to 260 words but I was just describing a place. When I use the headset it won't automatically punctuate I have to say my punctuation marks. It's now 4:07 PM.

I'm a little slow to because I wait to see it pop up before start talking again. But here I'm going to try to just speak as I would type in a steady stream and see how it does. I was am most excited that with my headset I can listen to music in my eight years and still be dictating with no problems. That's awesome, because when I write I usually listen to music, so this way I can hear the score of the book while I'm dictating the movie I see in my head. It's now 4:08 PM.

So as far as I can tell, converting an MP3 file I can have the punctuation added automatically using a headset I don't know quite how to use that yet. it's 4:09 PM s


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Very cool, Elizabeth. Can you give me a short example of some prose as you would dictate it? Do you have to say something like this:

Open quotes What are you doing comma close quotes she asked period.

I guess what I'm getting at is when you're talking into the software, are you talking in complete prose-y sentences that might appear in the book or are you summarizing the plot and situations and then filling in the prose later?


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Deke said:


> I'd have to read some of his prose to see if pulp speed is worth the paper it's printed on.


If you are speaking about Dean specifically - he does a lot of ghostwriting (some of which was later credited) and writing for the star trek franchise

http://www.amazon.com/Dean-Wesley-Smith/e/B000APCDJ6/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1417814362&sr=1-2-ent

Asimov wrote at pulp speed, many SF greats did (sometimes it was erotic pulp).


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Yes, I have to say all of the quotation marks when I dictate in my headset. So this prose:

Dinner in the Bennet household was a tense affair.  Not only was the mysterious cousin, Mr. Collins, in attendance, but Mr. Bingley had indeed accepted the invitation.  Elizabeth found herself  seated next to the sweaty, irritating man that Lydia and Kitty had earlier described. The serene Jane, appeared content next to Mr. Bingley and their father. Unfortunately, Elizabeth was stuck between Mr. Collins and her mother at the other end of the table.
"Mr. Bingley, you must invite the militia to your  ball! They would be a lovely addition!" harped Lydia.

Every comma and quote mark is said. 

Open quote Mister Bingley comma you must invite the militia to your ball exclamation point they would be a lovely addition exclamation point close quote.

Transcribing doesn't require this, it will punctuate it for you, but if you have lots of pauses when you speak, it adds extra commas and periods. I don't think I will use that function until I get more comofortable dictating overall and then I'll probably just say my punctuation marks. It's not hard. I think them when I type. Now I just say them.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Deke said:


> I'd have to read some of his prose to see if pulp speed is worth the paper it's printed on.


Do you mean Dean Wesley Smith's prose, or that of any of the celebrated writers mentioned in the post? Writing at pulp speed is not a new idea.

I was actually surprised by a few he glossed over like Erle Stanely Gardner the creator of Perry Mason.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

I use Dragon Dictation to enter and expand on my handwritten prose. I'm very happy with it, but it does take a while to get used to it and for it to learn your voice.

Some of the pulp greats like Gardner wrote with dictation, though they had secretaries to type everything up.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> I was actually surprised by a few he glossed over like Erle Stanely Gardner the creator of Perry Mason.


There was some discussion about Gardner in the comments.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks for the info on Dragon, folks. Can you use it with a smart phone through an app?  I ask because I commute about two hours a day and I use a lot of that time to talk into a voice recorder, and if I can somehow talk into a Dragon device or can translate the voice recorder into Dragon, my productivity would appreciate those two hours back.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Yes dragon will translate any mp3 file to text.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Yes dragon will translate any mp3 file to text.


Hmm, I have an old school recorder that just plays the file--I can't actually download the file to a computer. May have to upgrade my gear.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Here is a list of compatible devices: http://support.nuance.com/compatibility/Search.asp?PRO=DNS&CID=7

I have a Sony ICD-SX712 which says it's $409 on Amazon, but I don't remember paying that much for it a year and a half ago at Best Buy. You do have to train your transcription profile, but it rocks!


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

This thread/blog post is inspirational....and irksome.  Inspiring because if so many people can do this, so can I.  And because it means fewer drafts. Irksome because  it's not going to be easy.  I'll have to retrain my brain to come up with fully formed ideas and descriptions and such.  Not easy with my ADD, my disorganized and scattered thoughts.  But I'm gonna try it, retraining my brain, to see what comes out.  Who knows it may help in other walks of my life too.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Weirdling said:


> This thread/blog post is inspirational....and irksome. Inspiring because if so many people can do this, so can I. And because it means fewer drafts. Irksome because it's not going to be easy. I'll have to retrain my brain to come up with fully formed ideas and descriptions and such. Not easy with my ADD, my disorganized and scattered thoughts. But I'm gonna try it, retraining my brain, to see what comes out. Who knows it may help in other walks of my life too.


For what it's worth, I found that the lecture Dean offers on being prolific, and his ideas to story workshop, work really well in relation to the concept of pulp speed. I'm working my way through my Ideas to Story workshop notes again, and there are a ton of useful ideas and tips on how to get more ideas and faster.

In specific, though, you may not necessarily need a fully formed idea. Just get an idea and run with it. I guess it depends on where you fall on the pantser--plotter spectrum.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm on my last two days of travel before I return home (not really relevant). One thing I'm instituting on Monday is a sort of time tracker. I'll probably go through several iterations before I hit on something I like. Six segments an hour of ten minutes each, with a timer on my phone going off every 10m (does anyone know of one where you can just have it go off every ten minutes - at present, I'm setting six timers to run simultaneously). I'm going to use it for a week to track how I spend (i.e. waste) time. Then I'll re-examine it weekly and tweak for a few more weeks. I'll have printouts for the day where I can use a one letter code in a box (W for writing, F for general "messing" around, I for messing around on the internet, P for calls from my aunt (seriously!) and other initials for specific time offenders, E for exercise (don't expect many of those) D for domestic crud and so on). 

It's sort of like a time audit. How much time wasteful activities take will finally have a loose dollar cost associated with them. I'll also hopefully find some productivity blocks that occur naturally for me and plan non-writing work around those. 

edited to add - I know a lot of people who want to start a side business, etc., some of them in creative arts like photography or writing. They always say "but I don't have time" - this is while they are yakking away about nothing for an hour of my time. I think it will be really good for me to have a visual of how much time I spend on different tasks.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Jim, much of my revision drafts involve fleshing out talking head scenes and fixing order of events and other things.  Some people wouldn't really call my first drafts even drafts if they actually saw them; they are more like thought captures in spots and almost "normal draft" content in others.  My ADD makes me scurry to capture every idea, where ever it may come in the story, before I lose it.  My ADD also makes me get easily bored and discouraged by revision overload.

My goal is to try writing in smaller, fully thought out bits so I can skip the revision stage.  It will take some scheming to work with my ADD influenced shortcomings, but if I keep at it I suspect it will be worth it.  Eventually I'd like to be a one drafter, but that's down the road for me.  First I need to train my brain to need fewer drafts.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> A pulp speed badge is a great idea. I'll leave that to the people good with image manipulation skills.


Here's a quick and dirty one:


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

She-la-ti-da - nice!


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Jim Johnson said:


> A pulp speed badge is a great idea. I'll leave that to the people good with image manipulation skills.


Shouldn't it look like Elle Casey?


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

James et al.

Again, I am still on Day one. I did the final 2 "voice trainings" and from 9:31 PM to 10:12 PM (it's 10:14 PM right now) I dictated 1105 words. Here they are 100% raw (I made some changes as I dictated, but I stopped about halfway and tried to focus on just speaking the story. I would say it is on par with what my rough typing looks like, and I would read over this carefully one more time before handing it over to my editor. 

“I may have spoken too hastily, while I do intend to hold  a ball, it is imperative I speak with my sister Caroline before any concrete plans are made.  I hope you understand,” Mr. Bingleys face reddened,  as he looked to Jane for support . She nodded, but Mrs. Bennet interrupted the peace.
“You most certainly may not! This is a family matter and as such may be discussed in front of your family. Although, Mr. Bingley is not family  at present, I am sure he is happy to lend his support to your father and I. After all, he has his own sister to marry off, and an advantageous match does not simply fall into  ones lap, Elizabeth Bennet. Tell her, Mr. Bennet.” For a woman of little sense, when it came to the marriages of her daughters, Mrs. Bennet was a brilliant tactician.
Elizabeth glared at her father at the other end of the table, waiting for his reprieve. He had never insinuated to any of his daughters that he was interested in auctioning them off to the highest bidder. Holding her tongue, Elizabeth silently mouthed a plea for her father to stop this madness. Mr. Bennet cleared his throat.
“While it is certain Mr. Collins is a steady sort of fellow, and we know him capable of supporting any of our girls he should so choose for wife, let us resolve this issue of who may be his lucky bride for another day, my dear. All this talk of matrimony has spoiled my appetite, and I do so enjoy  Cook's partridge pie.  Mr. Bingley, I understand your friend is lately gone from our neighborhood. Would you care to shoot tomorrow with Mr. Collins and I?”
“All of God's creatures are indeed noble, but noblest is the creature to sacrifice for one stable; for the sustenance of the Lord  be far greater than simply word and hymns.”  Mr. Collins offered more of his deep wisdom, eliciting more giggles from the younger girls at the table and making Elizabeth shrink slightly in her chair.
As she stabbed at  an errant garden pea with her fork, Elizabeth reflected that her father did not quite say she was NOT to marry Mr. Collins, and the only solace she found was that he had not said she MUST marry Mr. Collins. The rest of dinner she did her best to minimize her role in further discussion on any subject matter. With any luck, she could feign exhaustion, and avoid the parlor for after dinner activities. Putting her plan in action, she began to yawn excessively, even going so far as to comment to the bombastic Mr. Collins how taxed she felt from dinner.
As Hill began to clear the plates from the last course, and her father invited the men for a brief visit to his study, with no further prodding Mr. Collins performed splendidly in Elizabeth's mind. That is, until he laid out the particulars of his desires.
“Mrs. Bennet, I wonder if I might be of service in carrying Cousin Elizabeth to retire to her room? It seems her injuries still weigh heavily upon her energies, and my  patroness, Lady Catherine, would scold me most thoroughly to not perform a gentleman's obligation for a maiden in need.”
As Mrs. Bennet happily agreed to  the scheme, a pit Elizabeth's stomach dropped somewhere to below her knees.  She tried to protest, but there were no alternative options. The twinkle in her father's eye communicated that he was in no mood to alleviate his daughter's embarrassment at the expense of his own amusement in the ordeal. With a huff and a frown, Elizabeth looked at her arms to provide an easier position for Mr. Collins to lift her. 
He managed to maneuver around the table with Elizabeth and his arms, but a quarter of the way up the stairs, his stamina began to fail him. The experience was nothing like the evening Mr. Darcy carried her down and up again at Netherfield. There was no broad chest muscles, so taut and masculine, for her to feel just under his shirt. The plump parson smelled nothing like  spice and the outdoors, he reeked of awkward ambition.
Near the top of the stairs, the man actually did falter, and Elizabeth soon found herself unceremoniously dumped upon the floor. Thankfully, they had reached high enough that she was on the floor of the second story, and not falling down the rest of the stairs. Mr. Collins however, did indeed slide a step or two in increased embarrassment and damage to his dignity.
“Cousin Elizabeth! My deepest apologies, I fear my foot must have slipped. Perhaps the stairs had some moisture upon them. Are you all right?”
Elizabeth laughter tinkled like delicate crystal. She was still the daughter who shared her father sense of humor. And  the sheer ridiculousness of her situation cascaded over her senses so much so that she must laugh if only not to cry. “Quite comfortable, Mr. Collins. If you would like to retire downstairs, I feel I may manage the rest of my own.”
“Of course not! Here, I shall let you again, and carry you straightaway to your quarters.”
With a look of intense gravity, Elizabeth suddenly stopped laughing.  “Sir, you have done enough.  Now spare me further embarrassment and potential  injury, your attentions are not needed. I only ask for the privacy I am owed as a crawl my way to my bed.”  for a moment, Elizabeth seriously considered kicking the man the rest of the way down the stairs with her good leg, but the fantasy was for naught,  because what little sense Mr. Collins possessed  did indeed carry him down to the parlor.
It was only after he was gone, and no one else passed  in the hall at the base of the stairs that Elizabeth  felt comfortable to roll over from her sore behind, and indeed crawl down the hall to the last room on the left. When she reached her bed, she pulled the treasured book of Mr. Darcy out from underneath her pillow, and cast it to the bottom of her trunk. With tears she did not keep from falling, for the first time in a long while, alienation from her family ripped her heart. No one argued for her happiness. No one came when her bottom fell with a thump out of the arms of Mr. Collins. She had become as inconsequential as her sister Mary, and the pain of losing her father's affections tormented her as she struggled to find sleep.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Here's a quick and dirty one:


Being a huge fan of TNG and DS9, I'm good with that.  We'll probably want numbers up to 5 or 6 if anyone is gunning for pulp factors beyond 1.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Deke said:


> I'd have to read some of his prose to see if pulp speed is worth the paper it's printed on.


It's becoming a self-defeating business model - the business model that is being ignored by many, and proved to work is - don't pub anything under 100,000 words.

When was the last time you saw a "100,000 word minimum," thread on Kboards? Go check out the best-sellers in fiction, and you'll see how many works of 400 plus, five hundred plus pages dominate the charts. They also tend to stick longer, and grow a better fan base, as by definition the reader is far more engaged in your work than they would be if they were reading a 20,000 word novella.

The meme here on this board is speed - I get it. However, people are now wondering why their 5,000 word erotica isn't being read - it's because there's another thousand titles of that length being pubbed every week. The entry bar is way too low.

Stand out from the crowd - don't go down the 12 x 60,000 word novel route - go down the 6 x 120,000 word novel route instead. Same word count, different league.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

But it's really hard to write long stories, for some of us.

_edit_
I guess that's no excuse not to try, if they really sell better...


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

HSh said:


> But it's really hard to write long stories, for some of us.
> 
> _edit_
> I guess that's no excuse not to try, if they really sell better...


That's why it's a different league.

The problem is ghost writing. This board tends to have an immature, OTT reaction whenever ghost-writing is mentioned - it's part of the ostrich technique of business study. They don't like it, they don't understand it, so they bury their head in the sands and kick out aimlessly.

I don't care how fast you can write, you can never out-write a team of ghost writers. Ever.

The only barrier to ghostwriting success as a model is simple economics. I could go out today and order up fifty 5,000 word erotic stories and have them all in hand by next Saturday. By the time I pay the ghosts and covers - $5,000 (max) would cover it. I can afford it - but I won't do it.

It would cost me $5,000 for a singular 100,000 ghost novel. (minimum.) In the long term - the $5,000 invested in the novel would have a far better chance of returning serious money. That's because the first market is being completely swamped - visibility of the 50 titles would disappear in a heartbeat. The novel would have a bit of chunk to it, be of a length that BB would consider it, blah blah.

I could order 300 erotic shorts at $30,000 - or six 100,000 novel series for the same money. Make the first one permafree, and be virtually guaranteed to make my money back. I'd rather have the novels than the 300. The entry bar is so much higher. 
............................................................................................

Do I employ ghosts? yes - but not for fiction. I don't pub their work either - I get them to write non-fiction books that can be substantiated by facts. They think they are ghostwriting for me - they are merely researchers digging out the trivia I don't have the time to do.

Once they present their "books," to me, I look at them - discard, add, rewrite - then pub. That's called intelligent outsourcing.

..............................................................................................

But that's not the point - the point is, the meme on the board is write more, write faster - are things going badly for you? write the next book.

No.

Stay away from the ghost-houses, they will burn you out. Many are funded by highly experienced authors that know exactly how to brand and market the product. So not only are you dealing with an unbeatable output, you are dealing with the most savvy authors on the go.

Write the next book and make sure it rises above ghost length.

Head for the high ground - six x 120K is of far more value than 12 x 60.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I...feel rather naive for not knowing there's so much ghostwriting around!  

It does seem like long books can sell better.  Or get more borrows, if you're in KU.  But other times shorter stories (not short stories but novellas, I suppose) do better because people just want a short, feel-good read.  At least in my genre.  I do look at different books and try to figure out why one does better than another, but honestly, I can't always even tell for my own.  It does seem like there's great potential for novels...but if they bomb you've lost a lot more work.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

HSh said:


> I...feel rather naive for not knowing there's so much ghostwriting around!
> 
> It does seem like long books can sell better. Or get more borrows, if you're in KU. But other times shorter stories (not short stories but novellas, I suppose) do better because people just want a short, feel-good read. At least in my genre. I do look at different books and try to figure out why one does better than another, but honestly, I can't always even tell for my own. It does seem like there's great potential for novels...but if they bomb you've lost a lot more work.


You would be shocked - and it's a subject that is virtually taboo on the forum, which is stupidity. I have no issue whatsoever with authors getting annoyed at the fact that people are outsourcing their books.

I do have a problem with authors reacting emotionally and causing a situation where long standing members of the board are genuinely unaware of what's going on.

Short fictional work is being swamped by ghosts - the entry bar is far too low, and you will never out-write the ghost houses. Never - so rather than write faster - write more words and rise above them.

I agree that the novel lengths are "riskier," as you have invested so much more time and emotional capital into them. If you never attempt to reach that level, and to give it a chance with at least three novels, then you'll never know how it will work out for you.

So, head for 60,000 first - then work up from there. You could be in for a very pleasant surprise.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Check this thread. Badges are kboards fun things to add to your signature if you want.


Thank you. I didn't visit here for about two months and when I returned badges were everywhere!


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Here's a quick and dirty one:


I like it!


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

EC said:


> It's becoming a self-defeating business model - the business model that is being ignored by many, and proved to work is - don't pub anything under 100,000 words.
> 
> When was the last time you saw a "100,000 word minimum," thread on Kboards? Go check out the best-sellers in fiction, and you'll see how many works of 400 plus, five hundred plus pages dominate the charts. They also tend to stick longer, and grow a better fan base, as by definition the reader is far more engaged in your work than they would be if they were reading a 20,000 word novella.
> 
> ...


Writing pulp speed, in the context discussed here, is about word count totals over the course of moths and years and not the lengths of the books. 12 * 60 and 6 * 120 are both equally valid and depend on what you want to write and the needs of your target market. I think that's why DWS talks about pulp *speeds* and not books written to the old pulp length. Those are different subjects. Speed of words written and speed of books published are different metrics.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks, Christa, Jim and David. I actually did a badge for each speed, thus six, and one for those who haven't made Pulp Speed One yet (me!). I call that one Impulse. And yes, I love me some Star Trek. 

EC, the reason people here aren't really up on ghostwriting is that it's not relevant to us. Add in a lot of writers who are new and haven't studied the craft long, and you can see why people don't seem to know what it is. For the record, I've known about ghostwriting for decades, and so have many others here. Some have even ghostwritten books, as well as articles. I'm writing for myself, thus I don't care what people who hire ghostwriters do or don't do, unless it's something that could hurt other writers.

There have been some conversations about how people are being hired on sites where they're paid very low amounts to write stuff for people who then publish it, sometimes without doing much editing. It comes off as a scam (thus, "scamphlets"), rather than the traditional experience of ghostwriting. The consensus here seems to be that those folks should stick to places like the warrior forums. You can agree, or not. *NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT YOU DO!!!!!*

As David said, this discussion is not about length, it's about production speed. Every genre has it's expected length, some longer than others. In the old days, books were shorter, and it wasn't until publishers wanted to charge more that word counts increased. I've read many discussions about how modern readers have shorter attention spans, so shorter books will be appreciated/expected again.

I get the feeling you aren't fond of shorter works, though they are just as valid as longer ones. That's fine. Some readers like doorstoppers, some like shorter, tighter works, some even -- gasp! -- like serials, and some like those 5K erotic stories. To each his/her own, right?


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2014)

You should get Joseph to add them to his badges thread. How much we write vs how much we sell is a valuable measurement.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Thanks, Christa, Jim and David. I actually did a badge for each speed, thus six, and one for those who haven't made Pulp Speed One yet (me!). I call that one Impulse. And yes, I love me some Star Trek.
> 
> EC, the reason people here aren't really up on ghostwriting is that it's not relevant to us. Add in a lot of writers who are new and haven't studied the craft long, and you can see why people don't seem to know what it is. For the record, I've known about ghostwriting for decades, and so have many others here. Some have even ghostwritten books, as well as articles. I'm writing for myself, thus I don't care what people who hire ghostwriters do or don't do, unless it's something that could hurt other writers.
> 
> ...


You're feeling is wrong - I'm not referring to the worth of short works, I'm referring to the fact that you will never out-write the ghost houses. Yes, write at pulp speed, but rise above the ultra-competitive word count band. The longer your works - the further away you get.

This board is here to discuss the art of writing, and the business of writing - not letting newbies know that the market is being flooded by ghost-written work is unfair. It's one reason why many are banging their heads against a brick wall.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

"Impulse speed" ! Love that.

Separately - while I will join the *pulp speed thread (or maybe an FB group?) b*ecause I want to know if one million words in one year will make me $1m in one year (my current earning average is $1 per word and sometimes that is $2 per word on one book and .35 per word on another), I don't think more is better for everyone. Sometimes more is just more and the writer is missing out on other parts of living. So I don't think 1m words a year should be a business model - more like a pleasure model for those to whom writing is living.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Impulse Speed for the win.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Not that I plan on writing impulse speed, but there needs to be a starting point.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I don't think I could manage to hit pulp speed at the moment, but I'm willing to give it a go on the basis that it will encourage me to write more than I currently do.  

So, what is the plan?  To start in January?


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

January is when I'm starting. I'll be working on a new book, so that's convenient for me.


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## dgrant (Feb 5, 2014)

We were happily humming along at Warp 1 when we got stuck in a rough patch of subspace called Moving House, and had to fight our way clear of a asteroid field full of cardboard boxes with "We still have this?" and "Where did that get packed?" and books inside...

The engines are repaired, all the boxes still in the way have been shoved in a storage unit, and if the engineers don't scream, we'll be getting back up to speed again soon.


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## Pauline Creeden (Aug 4, 2011)

Need to write more and stop procrastinating - I'd be happy with 1/2 or 1/4 of his speed :/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## KelliLee (Dec 7, 2014)

I agree with DWS in some ways but not in others. Yes, you want to have a good work ethic and keep your butt in the chair to make sure you have steady output however, if you are steadily putting out work that has poor covers and ideas that are very common, I don't think you are going to see many sales. Make sure you have some good ideas in mind and some good covers before you start busting out a novel every two weeks.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm in the throes of making this work now. I am habitually a binge writer. I will write that nice 2 or 3k a day at the beginning of a project, usually to about 8-10 K total, and then I take a break, bored with the monotony of being so . . . predictable. But then I'll have a day where I just abuse myself and type 8-10k. Then I take a break for a few days, deal with the pain, get it gone, apologize to my physical therapist for being set back a good week. Then I do it again, this time 2 days in a row, trying furiously to finish the manuscript, and voila! A novella is born. (30-35K)

Since June, I've produced about 158,000 words this way, 118,000 of those already published. Even I have to say that's a little too manic.

Now with 2 days of dictating, I'm sold. I've already done 2700 words today and don't feel tired at all, mentally or physically. It's kind of fun to lay in my glider (from when I had my daughter), and just talk my story. Teehee. This evening, 15 minutes was 1100 words, and once I edited it, it was 1400. Took 45 minutes total. Hallelujah! I can now see a clear, and um, fun, nonpainful path to 5-10,000 words a day! And the more I talk about this, the more people are telling me so-and-so dictated, so-and-so dictated. I don't disagree it's realllly hard to get over that initial resistance to speaking your punctuation. But man, it's soooo worth it. 

Since I KNOW a novella for me is worth $2,000 and a novel is worth $4,000+, I can easily get to 2 novellas a month, perhaps more. We'll see. I have 20,000 more to write on this novel I'm finishing up. Then it's open season on word counts, baby!


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Wow!!    You're pretty amazing!


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## Pauline Creeden (Aug 4, 2011)

Dragon needs to hire Elizabeth as their spokesperson - she's selling me on their product!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Sorry. I just can't believe how this is working for me. I'm at 4200 words so far for today and it feels like I've typed nothing. I only typed about 500 of those!

I wrote Cancelled in 2010 on a netbook, hunched over, on a sofa. I am now curved in my spine. I was 28 and went to the doctor for numbness in the first three fingers in both hands. They did an Xray (not degenerative) and a nerve study (yep, the signal isn't as strong as it should be) and said "Peripheral neuropathy" but since there is no pain, meh.

Fast forward to this summer. In July, I basically wrote 2 35,000 books in 30 days. My hand tingling was near constant. Stupid me, believing the doctors from years ago, no pain, no worries. Yeah. I started getting headaches and intense pain in my back. Visited a friend in South Carolina, who said "Oh yeah, we get that too (they're about 20+ years older than me), put an ice pack on it at night." Ice pack worked great. It reduced when my symptoms would flare up. I started writing A Spring Sentiment. Middle of August I woke up one morning and could not turn my neck with excruciating, make you scream and cry pain shooting down my back. I make a same day appointment. They take an xray say it's not degenerative. I explain I'm alternating nights of drinking wine and taking naproxen to manage the pain. Doctor looks at me askance, "Do you need something stronger?" I say "no! I don't want to be doped up. Can I get physical therapy?" He was jubilant, "Sold!" 

I started in September (managing to write and publish A Spring Sentiment) and I've greatly improved. But days of 6 or 7K just kill me. Here it is December, on my second referral of days, and my therapist is saying "You may have to just pay for weekly massages with a deep tissue specialist and continue your exercises to make this work." Hence dictation. $150 upfront is a heck of a lot cheaper than paying that amount per week for a massage. 

I've written 4200 words already, and I'm about to go lay on the floor and "write" a thousand more. This is wonderful. This is like winning the lottery. And if I can help just one other writer avoid bulging discs at the ripe old age of 32, I'm going to scream from the rooftops.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I must admit I bought Dragon a few months ago, but it frustrated me so much I put it aside and just typed.  I'm a fairly fast typist, & not having joint issues right now.  I was, and that's why I bought Dragon.  But I'm doing better now so I quit.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

FUNNY THING.  I'm reading the book about writing compiled from the notes and life of Earle Stanley Gardner, an ACTUAL PULP WRITER who was considered extraordinarily prolific even in the age of pulp writers, and GUESS WHAT

He rewrote ALL THE TIME.  He rewrote not only because publishers and editors told him to but ALSO when he realized something wasn't working, to improve his stories.

He also could not keep up 10k words a day.

He started out sending in basically raw first drafts without typos, you know, DWS-style, and he was slapped down pretty hard for it.  One of his early struggles was learning to self-edit well.  At first, he tried to get an agent who would do that for him, but the agent didn't, despite his promises.  So he knew he had to learn how, too.  

Once he knew how to edit, he edited all of his works before they were ever sent out.  And stuff that wasn't up to snuff, he threw away.

Why not listen to people who actually made a really good living writing instead of people who make a very modest income talking about writing?

Also, the numbers DWS are talking about really AREN'T very realistic.  Yes, there were some writers who wrote a million words a year for years on end.  There weren't that many who wrote much more.  At category length, 50k, a million words is 20 books a year--at 75k, that would be 15 books.  Across a career of 30 years, that would be 450-600 books.  Plenty of writers had careers that were 50 years long.  We should expect to see 750-1000 books from them.

Instead, what we see is 23 writers total listed on Wikipedia who have written at least 450 books.  Wikipedia is hardly the definitive source, so there may have been 100 who have ever does as much.

If a million words a year is so "normal," where are the rest of the writers?

Guess what.  They don't exist.

All good writing takes a willingness to revise, when necessary.  There are people who made very good livings on no revision (Barabara Cartland, I'm looking at YOU) but most of their work shows it painfully clearly (BARBARA CARTLAND).  But she achieved such high numbers because not only did she A) do no research and B) did no revision, but she also C) did no TYPING because she dictated her stories for others to type up!  THAT'S what it takes for most people to reach those kinds of numbers.

What your brain vomits out while you force it to always maintain pace without revision is rarely readable.  I think more and more writers are buying into this, and it's nonsense.  Go check out the ranks of many of the people who are writing a million words a day.  I think the SPP guys are cute, but Johnny B. Truant has extremely few readers and was living off savings until Fiction Unboxed opened up a business model of selling fiction to other writers.  That is now his entire focus because he hasn't been able to sell to actual readers in any real number.  Pick up one of the books that he wrote during his million-words-a-year sprint and start reading.  As much as I like him...geez, dude.  Narrative control is your friend.  That's why they're not getting a readership.

Hell, check out DWS's ranks.  He and KKR aren't making $50k TOGETHER on all their hundreds of titles per year.  They've laid off all but two staff because not even their workshops, which is most of their income, are covering the gap.  And I bet they're not making enough to pay the final two for long.

YOU AREN'T A FULLTIME WRITER UNLESS READERS ARE BUYING YOUR BOOKS.  It's not about words.  It's about sales.  And precious few readers are interested in brain-vomit.

My worst-performing short story is doing better than DWS's best-performing fiction title.  Don't drink the Kool-Aid, kids.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

EC said:


> It's becoming a self-defeating business model - the business model that is being ignored by many, and proved to work is - don't pub anything under 100,000 words.
> 
> When was the last time you saw a "100,000 word minimum," thread on Kboards? Go check out the best-sellers in fiction, and you'll see how many works of 400 plus, five hundred plus pages dominate the charts. They also tend to stick longer, and grow a better fan base, as by definition the reader is far more engaged in your work than they would be if they were reading a 20,000 word novella.
> 
> ...


It is ABSOLUTELY true that you get a stronger fanbase with longer works, especially longer works at the beginning of the funnel.

I like serials A LOT because of their flexibility, and this is what I use bundles for. My bundles are 75k-140k.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Christa Wick said:


> "Impulse speed" ! Love that.
> 
> Separately - while I will join the *pulp speed thread (or maybe an FB group?) b*ecause I want to know if one million words in one year will make me $1m in one year (my current earning average is $1 per word and sometimes that is $2 per word on one book and .35 per word on another), I don't think more is better for everyone. Sometimes more is just more and the writer is missing out on other parts of living. So I don't think 1m words a year should be a business model - more like a pleasure model for those to whom writing is living.


$1/word is earning its keep. My goal is $2-5 per word. If after a year, a line isn't at $1/new word produced, I'll kill it.


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

ʬ said:


> At category length, 50k, a million words is 20 books a year--at 75k, that would be 15 books. Across a career of 30 years, that would be 450-600 books. Plenty of writers had careers that were 50 years long. We should expect to see 750-1000 books from them.
> 
> Instead, what we see is 23 writers total listed on Wikipedia who have written at least 450 books. Wikipedia is hardly the definitive source, so there may have been 100 who have ever does as much.


Most of the pulp speed writers I know write under pen names. The vast majority have over the last 30-40 years.

So I don't see why you'd really expect to see all these writers with 100+ books. Most people I know even in what DWS calls "subpulp" speeds write under multiple pen names. I have three closed pen names myself, on top of my actual own name that I use to produce nonfiction books for career reasons.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

shadowfox said:


> Most of the pulp speed writers I know write under pen names. The vast majority have over the last 30-40 years.
> 
> So I don't see why you'd really expect to see all these writers with 100+ books. Most people I know even in what DWS calls "subpulp" speeds write under multiple pen names. I have three closed pen names myself, on top of my actual own name that I use to produce nonfiction books for career reasons.


Um. Yeah, actually, people track the pen names. Like, say, those of Earle Stanley Gardner.

There are more people doing it now than before. (I'm at a million words a year rate, myself.) But speed doesn't equal money, and money is the only thing that equals professional writer. There is one self-published author making millions who clearly doesn't edit, but that's the only one I can think of with a high level income.

I could write twice as much, market half as much, and sell a quarter of what I do now. No, thanks.

LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHO SELL BOOKS IF YOU WANT TO SELL BOOKS. If you just want to feel good about yourself spinning your wheels, then listen to self-appointed experts who can't actually sell. 

I only listen to people for advice who sell more than I do. That's why I'm selling well now, and I hope I'll be selling even better in the future.


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

ʬ said:


> Um. Yeah, actually, people track the pen names. Like, say, those of Earle Stanley Gardner.


If it's an open pen name, sure. Even sometimes if it's a closed pen name and someone makes mistakes.

DWS? Last I heard, he'd sold a fairly large number of books during his life time.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

ShaneJeffery said:


> You should get Joseph to add them to his badges thread. How much we write vs how much we sell is a valuable measurement.


I'll look into that. 



EC said:


> You're feeling is wrong - I'm not referring to the worth of short works, I'm referring to the fact that you will never out-write the ghost houses. Yes, write at pulp speed, but rise above the ultra-competitive word count band. The longer your works - the further away you get.


My feeling may be wrong, but I'm not the only one to get that from what you said. I think it's kind of odd that you're so concerned about what people know or don't know about "ghost houses", since it really doesn't affect us on this topic what-so-ever. We aren't trying to do anything more than motivate ourselves to write more words. We aren't trying to win the Internets.

Personally, I see this topic as a way to motivate myself to work on being consistent in my writing, so I can get more work out. Going days or weeks without writing is hurting my career, and I've already had three years when family circumstances brought my writing to nearly a halt. It has nothing to do with putting up unedited, unrevised work.



EC said:


> This board is here to discuss the art of writing, and the business of writing - not letting newbies know that the market is being flooded by ghost-written work is unfair. It's one reason why many are banging their heads against a brick wall.


I know what the board is here for. I've been here long enough to have seen topics come and go and come around again. If you think newbies should know about the hazards of ghost-written work, then start a thread on it. Educate people rather than interject the subject in a thread where it's not relevant.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

^^ Sorry I wasn't aware you were a moderator.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I have deleted this post as I do not consent to the new Terms of Service that Vertical Scope are attempting to retrospectively apply to our content.  I am forced to manually replace my content as, at time of editing, their representative has instructed moderators not to delete posts or accounts when users request it, and Vertical Scope have implied that they will deal with account deletion requests by anonymising accounts, which would leave personally identifying information in my posts.

I joined under the previous ownership and have posted over the years under different Terms of Service.  I do not consent to my name, content, or intellectual properties being used by Vertical Scope or any other entity that they sell or licence my data to.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

VM, we know by now that you don't like DWS and disagree with his advice. There's no need for you to derail every single DWS thread to disagree with his advice and point out in great detail why he's wrong. If you see DWS in the subject line, just don't click.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

*pokes head in door*

Did someone ask for a moderator?


EDIT:  I don't think it requires a moderator to suggest a dedicated thread on a topic is a good idea.  Though, for those who think it takes a moderator, here goes:  I agree, a thread on ghost-writing, its uses and impacts on the industry, would be a great topic, and more appropriate than trying to have a real discussion of it within this thread.  I agree it's not so much on topic here, as the length of books is not the topic.

As for DWS...  DWS topics for some reason always turn contentious.  Agree, disagree, discuss, debate, etc.  But let's keep it civil (and it has been so far).  I'm just sayin' based on past history, sometimes these threads go wrong.

Everyone have a great day!

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I think this thread became a little derailed with all the talk of ghostwriting  and the scary notion of publishing a first draft. For years I have followed DWS and he has always said that he looks over his writing or his wife does. For someone who has decades of experience, I have no concerns about the quality of work he may or may not publish. Irregardless, for me, I know I don't publish first drafts.  I outline, talk about the sequence of events with my editor,  write it out, read over it, send it to my editor, read what she changed, make a few more tweaks, send it to my copy editor, read over what she found, then publish.

I know that I write what would likely be considered " pulp"  for my genre because I am far more focused on character development and thrilling plot lines that I am on writing award-winning prose. I write the kinds of stories that I like to read when I'm jonesing for a dose of Darcy. Just yesterday, in an Austen author  social media group, a longtime reader congratulated me on my new release and told me I could never write fast enough for her. I know exactly what that feels like, because I have my own favorite stories and authors. I talked to her about my dictation methods and about how it's tripling my output with no pain, and she was giddy at the idea of me releasing more than one book per month.

I think pulp speed is akin to real estate. The more reading properties you have out there for a reader to rent time with, the higher your base salary will be. That is assuming that you have a readership you are serving  who can't get enough.  My goodness, I would love if JK Rowling would write at pulp speed!  the myth of writing says all that is written fast is crap and all that is written slowly is  valuable. That's not an axiom that is universal or true in every single case. Freeing yourself of  that myth is a huge psychological relief on what your muse can and cannot produce. I was paralyzed mentally for three years with my writing, afraid that it wouldn't be good enough for the readership. I talk quickly, I write quickly, and if you met me in real life, you would probably say I come up with ideas too quickly.  it's who I am, since I was itty-bitty, and I'm not going to change. I like the support that DWS offers writers who may or may not have the same experiences as the majority. For that I'm thankful, because it absolutely opened the door for me to start writing again.  That and James Scott Bell's FICTION ATTACK.


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

KelliLee said:


> I agree with DWS in some ways but not in others. Yes, you want to have a good work ethic and keep your butt in the chair to make sure you have steady output however, if you are steadily putting out work that has poor covers and *ideas that are very common*, I don't think you are going to see many sales. Make sure you have some good ideas in mind and some good covers before you start busting out a novel every two weeks.


Like virgins being seduced by billionaires.


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

KelliLee said:


> I agree with DWS in some ways but not in others. Yes, you want to have a good work ethic and keep your butt in the chair to make sure you have steady output however, if you are steadily putting out work that has poor covers and ideas that are very common, I don't think you are going to see many sales. Make sure you have some good ideas in mind and some good covers before you start busting out a novel every two weeks.


I'm just not sure why you think any of your points disagree with DWS?

DWS tells you to write the best fiction you can, with the best ideas you can, with the best marketing you can. I just don't think any of that is controversial...

He believes that writing a lot, and rewriting a minimal amount (based on first reader comments and editor comments) is the best way to go. That is controversial. A lot of professional writers use other processes.


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Sorry. I just can't believe how this is working for me. I'm at 4200 words so far for today and it feels like I've typed nothing. I only typed about 500 of those!
> 
> I wrote Cancelled in 2010 on a netbook, hunched over, on a sofa. I am now curved in my spine. I was 28 and went to the doctor for numbness in the first three fingers in both hands. They did an Xray (not degenerative) and a nerve study (yep, the signal isn't as strong as it should be) and said "Peripheral neuropathy" but since there is no pain, meh.
> 
> ...


This saved me from surgery: http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Back-Pain-Mind-Body-Connection-ebook/dp/B000FA5SGG


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I used to get wrist pain when I wrote longhand, and then when I switched to computers...if I wrote too much, I'd pay for it the next day.  I could work myself up to a higher word count with practice, but had to take it not too quickly or I'd be hurting.  For the last few years, I've been supplementing with vitamin E, alfalfa, and turmeric pills.  They really help me.    But, I also take a lot of other supplements (like magnesium and B vitamins).  So some of them may help as well.  And I find a weekly massage as the local massage school (from students for reduced rates) very helpful for my aches and pains.  I'm lucky to have it, I know--and it's really more for other health issues--but I think it does help me not injure myself when I have high word count days.  (And I've had a few this year!)


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

I started messing with the Google voice typing on my phone with my Word app open and I am certain I can figure out how to train myself to use that to write more! I'm on the go a lot and sitting in the chair typing is hard on me physically.
But I will also look into Dragon Speaking, since that's something I've been interested in for a long time.
I'd love to become more efficient. If trying someone else's method might work for me, I feel I should be open to the idea.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> I imagine this'll drop like a rock like most posts on Dean Wesley Smith hereabouts, but I found his latest on 'pulp speed' pretty inspiring.
> 
> http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/the-new-world-of-writing-pulp-speed/


Jim, I may have told you this, but I once emailed Dean a question, and he took the time to answer me with an extensive email. I already like much of what DWS has to say, but from that day on, my respect for him increased.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2014)

CoraBuhlert said:


> VM, we know by now that you don't like DWS and disagree with his advice. There's no need for you to derail every single DWS thread to disagree with his advice and point out in great detail why he's wrong. If you see DWS in the subject line, just don't click.


I disagree. VM should have the right to say what she wants. We already know she's outspoken. (Big deal. So am I.) I agree with some of what she says. Some of the other stuff she says, I don't agree with.

So what?


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2014)

ʬ said:


> Um. Yeah, actually, people track the pen names. Like, say, those of Earle Stanley Gardner.
> 
> There are more people doing it now than before. (I'm at a million words a year rate, myself.) But speed doesn't equal money, and money is the only thing that equals professional writer. There is one self-published author making millions who clearly doesn't edit, but that's the only one I can think of with a high level income.
> 
> ...


VM., I'm glad you're selling now, because I remember when you weren't selling as well as you are now, and I remember the things that you said.

I've learned quite a few things since I started in May, and I've made some mistakes, but I hope to do better in 2015.  In fact, I'm sure I will.  I'm in this for life. So it's all good.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Can this please not be yet another referendum on DWS's credibility or sales numbers? Personally, I take his advice like I do anyone else's. Respectfully. Then I take the parts that make sense to me and ignore the rest. A writer who studies the whole field should, in light of their own needs, be able to conglomerate all the best bits of advice by locating the crossover points. Some of the worst writing advice, for me and how I work, that I've ever read came from a bestseller. 

Actually, Erle Stanley Gardner basically followed the Heilein approach. He only revised when his editors requested it. And while he did rewrite a few tales along the way, it seems the bulk of the stories were not treated that way. As for basic edits, some writers need to make more of those than others.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

CoraBuhlert said:


> VM, we know by now that you don't like DWS and disagree with his advice. There's no need for you to derail every single DWS thread to disagree with his advice and point out in great detail why he's wrong. If you see DWS in the subject line, just don't click.


I don't think she's derailing them. I think it's important for people to see the counterpoint, and I value her perspective. As people point out here all the time, new readers and lurkers find stuff here every day, and things that are old hat to us and seem done to death are new for them.

Nobody's advice, especially advice that might seem a bit outrageous on the surface, should be immune from examination.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

[quote author=Christa Wick]Separately - while I will join the *pulp speed thread (or maybe an FB group?)[/quote]

Wondering if a FB group for the folks who really want to focus on this might be better than an open topic on the kboards. Thoughts?*


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Eclectic Authoress said:


> Jim, I may have told you this, but I once emailed Dean a question, and he took the time to answer me with an extensive email. I already like much of what DWS has to say, but from that day on, my respect for him increased.


Awesome to hear. Matches my experience with him over the last several years.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I agree Facebook group would avoid drama... there's going to be some authors who really don't ascribe to the idea and feel they need to dissent regularly for the sake of other new authors. We can always talk about pulp speed and refer those interested to the facebook group.

I already use facebook impromptu to fist bump my word counts with my readers and other authors.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Wondering if a FB group for the folks who really want to focus on this might be better than an open topic on the kboards. Thoughts?


That's what I was thinking. A Facebook group, a Google Plus Community, or a GroupMe would probably be better for maintaining focus on the subject and encouragement. I wouldn't be able to check in on a Facebook group frequently, probably only weekly, but I could check in on Google Plus or GroupMe daily. (Strange reasons.) Not that I should be the determining factor on such things. I don't think nearly as many people use those platforms.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2014)

I'm on a Facebook, Twitter and Google+ break until January.  But PM me if any of you create a DWS group.  I'd like to participate when I'm back on social media.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

I would also be interested in joining either a FB group or Google+ (and I do get updated on Google+ more often than FB because I deleted the FB app off my phone). Please keep me posted if one is formed. I don't feel I could form one myself since Pulp Speed is something I aspire to and not something that I have achieved yet.


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## Pauline Creeden (Aug 4, 2011)

I'd be interested as well! Anything to up the speed of my word count.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Can this please not be yet another referendum on DWS's credibility or sales numbers? Personally, I take his advice like I do anyone else's. Respectfully. Then I take the parts that make sense to me and ignore the rest. A writer who studies the whole field should, in light of their own needs, be able to conglomerate all the best bits of advice by locating the crossover points. Some of the worst writing advice, for me and how I work, that I've ever read came from a bestseller.


Oh, stop it! Stop being so mature and reasonable, and like, logical and stuff. 



Jim Johnson said:


> Wondering if a FB group for the folks who really want to focus on this might be better than an open topic on the kboards. Thoughts?


I'd be interested in a Google+ group. I stay off Facebook as much as possible.

And thanks for continuing to post about DWS in the face of the opposition to him. I have no problem with people talking about their experiences with DWS and KKR, or anyone or anything else, because we should hear all sides of an issue. But could we be respectful and mindful that others have/had different views? Some members have reported very good results following Dean's ideas.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

I'd be very interested in joining a Facebook group or Google+thingiemabobbie. I have no experience with Google+ but I'm sure I could learn. And TattooedWriter would be interested in joining too. Most here know our opinions of DWS and to be perfectly honest I wouldn't be comfortable with taking part in it if it was a thread here on Kboards.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I would also be interested in a group.  I have a G+ account that I don't use very often, but would be happy to try to figure out how groups work on there.  I could also do Facebook if people preferred that, though I think that more people seem to be leaning towards Google Plus at present.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

I'd be interested in a FB or G+ group.  I'm more active on G+, but either way I'd join up.  Please add me to the PM list once it's ready.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2014)

Bilinda Ní Siodacaín said:


> I'd be very interested in joining a Facebook group or Google+thingiemabobbie. I have no experience with Google+ but I'm sure I could learn. And TattooedWriter would be interested in joining too. Most here know our opinions of DWS and to be perfectly honest I wouldn't be comfortable with taking part in it if it was a thread here on Kboards.


You and TW are interested in joining? That's awesome! TW's advice has had a huge impact on the way I want to approach this business.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Google + for me. I have a facebook but just don't get to it very often.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

Eclectic Authoress said:


> You and TW are interested in joining? That's awesome! TW's advice has had a huge impact on the way I want to approach this business.


Yeah we'd both be there with bells on. TW always got his best ideas from me  (muahahaha and he's not here to defend himself)


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

When I was a tech writer I used to write at what DWS calls pulp speed - I was an independent contractor for much of that time, and writing at pulp speed was the only way to stay in business. In the "cheap, fast, good - pick two" paradigm, I was in the "fast and good" camp. I won't tell you how many all-nighters I've pulled. I learned to make first drafts (plus some revision as I wrote) pretty durn good, because frequently there wasn't time for re-writes.

Now that I'm forcibly retired (due to a break down), I'm luxuriating in the ability to write more slowly and as I feel like it. My first drafts are still pretty respectable, but I have the luxury of working with an editor now and value her input greatly.

fortunately, I don't have to make a living with my writing any more - among other things, I have a massively supportive husband. 

So yeah, I'll put an impulse speed icon up by my books - gotta get the alphasmart one up. But just remember, there are often penalties to pay for years of intensive writing at pulp speed.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Really great to hear the interest, folks. May we all hit our goals for next year! I'm on Facebook all the time and haven't touched G+ yet, so I'll look into that. I could do a group on both, but would hate to have duplicated effort. Anyone like Yahoogroups? I used that in the past and it generally did the job.

In the meantime, Dean posted some great comments the other day that I think are very relevant to pulp speeding. They're things I've worked hard to internalize over the last few years, and I suspect many of you have as well.



> Elements that need to be together to make Pulp Speed happen over a year of time are:
> 
> *1) You have fear surrounding your writing completely controlled.* You can't get rid of it, but you can control and contain it and when it escapes, you put it away again. (Make not writing at Pulp Speed your largest fear and then fear can help you instead of stop you.)
> 
> ...


Note that there's no discussion about ghost-writing (?) and nothing about sales, product, money, etc. Products and publishing is the next step after the writing. Can't publish what doesn't exist. And it's not about just vomiting out as many words as possible over and over and over. You have to keep learning, keep reading, keep challenging yourself.

I struggle with #1 more than anything else. This new world of publishing has no barriers, and it's scary to know that I can publish literally anything I want to. No one's going to stop me or say no. That's incredibly freeing, but incredibly scary too.

Anyway, so as we head toward 2015 and the new group (wherever we decide to set up shop), think about your goals and the above comments about the mind-set to be in to help you move toward pulp speed. And read Dean's recent blog entries too--there's more useful content in there about writing at pulp speed while you're holding down a day job, and other related tidbits.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that the comment about writing in chunks was a breakthrough element for me a couple years ago. Instead of binge-writing over a weekend or in big painful chunks of time, I tried switching to 30 minute writing sprints with breaks in between, or 30 minute sprints whenever I could fit them into my day, and I saw major results right away. I think there's a similar process out there with a name to it, but I don't recall it. Whatever it is, it's been working for me.


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## Lloyd MacRae (Nov 18, 2012)

I'm also interested in joining a Pulp Speed group. 

edit to add: I'm on Facebook but hate it. I don't find it easy to converse like we do here.


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## DaniO (Oct 22, 2012)

I'd love to join too. I'm mainly on Facebook but I can join G+
This thread has been an inspiration already. I'm about to go and try dictation again.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Okay, folks, I figured why wait to get this action started. I created a private G+ community for this, so please PM me either your Google+ name or the email address you use for Google+ and I'll start sending out invites.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Okay, folks, I figured why wait to get this action started. I created a private G+ community for this, so please PM me either your Google+ name or the email address you use for Google+ and I'll start sending out invites.


Done.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Okay, folks, I figured why wait to get this action started. I created a private G+ community for this, so please PM me either your Google+ name or the email address you use for Google+ and I'll start sending out invites.


Sent you a message!


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## DaniO (Oct 22, 2012)

Jim Johnson said:


> Okay, folks, I figured why wait to get this action started. I created a private G+ community for this, so please PM me either your Google+ name or the email address you use for Google+ and I'll start sending out invites.


Sent you a PM


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Sent you a message and on second thought, I'm glad we're doing google+ instead of facebook - I get too many messages there and it turns into a time suck


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## Lloyd MacRae (Nov 18, 2012)

Sent PM


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

also sent a pm


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Okay, folks, I figured why wait to get this action started. I created a private G+ community for this, so please PM me either your Google+ name or the email address you use for Google+ and I'll start sending out invites.


Awesome. Google+ best strength in my opinion is the communities function. I like that better than Facebook groups. Also, since I basically only use communities there I don't have to block it like I do Facebook where I can easily waste too much time.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Awesome. Google+ best strength in my opinion is the communities function. I like that better than Facebook groups. Also, since I basically only use communities there I don't have to block it like I do Facebook where I can easily waste too much time.


Yeah, FB really is a black hole of content. I'm finding the G+ group is a bit of a timesink too, but at least it's focused.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Really great to hear the interest, folks. May we all hit our goals for next year! I'm on Facebook all the time and haven't touched G+ yet, so I'll look into that. I could do a group on both, but would hate to have duplicated effort. Anyone like Yahoogroups? I used that in the past and it generally did the job.
> 
> In the meantime, Dean posted some great comments the other day that I think are very relevant to pulp speeding. They're things I've worked hard to internalize over the last few years, and I suspect many of you have as well.
> 
> ...


Great stuff! #4 is the one that kills me every time. I spend so much time spinning my wheels while revising the sloppy first draft, changing very little of the story aspects as I go. I might add one or two linking scenes along the way while taking out one or two small scenes, and that's it. Meanwhile, I get frustrated because I'm ready to move on to a new story and my enthusiasm for the current one has faded.

Dictation has been a great addition to my workflow because I can do it while standing. So I can split my time between sitting and standing.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Yeah, FB really is a black hole of content. I'm finding the G+ group is a bit of a timesink too, but at least it's focused.


It's a time sink that gives back!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Great stuff! #4 is the one that kills me every time. I spend so much time spinning my wheels while revising the sloppy first draft, changing very little of the story aspects as I go. I might add one or two linking scenes along the way while taking out one or two small scenes, and that's it. Meanwhile, I get frustrated because I'm ready to move on to a new story and my enthusiasm for the current one has faded.


I was taking Holly Lisle's course on how to revise a novel, which I thought was a useful writing course and a good expense of time and money, but about halfway through the course I pulled out the original draft to compare, and I realized that I was bashing my head against a manuscript that I had been dinking with for almost 10 years. I spent so much time on that stupid thing, spinning my wheels, that the most recent draft was actually worse than my first cut that had been written on the fly, with little outlining and a lot of energy. I had pounded all the life and joy out of the story that I don't know if I'll ever go back to it. Maybe take some more time away from it and just try starting from scratch.


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## Pauline Creeden (Aug 4, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Okay, folks, I figured why wait to get this action started. I created a private G+ community for this, so please PM me either your Google+ name or the email address you use for Google+ and I'll start sending out invites.


Awesome! Sending a PM now


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Pauline Creeden said:


> Awesome! Sending a PM now


More Virginians always welcome.


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## Pauline Creeden (Aug 4, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> More Virginians always welcome.


Ha! I just noticed that now!


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Okay, folks, I figured why wait to get this action started. I created a private G+ community for this, so please PM me either your Google+ name or the email address you use for Google+ and I'll start sending out invites.


Sent PM. Thanks!


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

Sent a PM


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## Chris Lord (Feb 22, 2014)

Comment deleted due to new TOS on 27/08/2018


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

Sent PM. Thank you.


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## Writer&#039;s Block (Oct 29, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> I was taking Holly Lisle's course on how to revise a novel, which I thought was a useful writing course and a good expense of time and money, but about halfway through the course I pulled out the original draft to compare, and I realized that I was bashing my head against a manuscript that I had been dinking with for almost 10 years. I spent so much time on that stupid thing, spinning my wheels, that the most recent draft was actually worse than my first cut that had been written on the fly, with little outlining and a lot of energy. I had pounded all the life and joy out of the story that I don't know if I'll ever go back to it. Maybe take some more time away from it and just try starting from scratch.


I'm almost ready to push the button on my first novel. It's taken three years 70k words.... Pulp Speed minus 10!

Being new to writing, I revelled in the beauty of those first few chapters, the discovery of my literary creativity and the awesomeness of my expansive vocabulary. I reworked and reworked them until they gleamed and shined.

Then I started to realise I'd never get the book done at that rate. I took some advice I read somewhere '_write your story to the end_'. So I stopped being precious and just wrote to the end with little or no revision. I knew in my heart this was never going to be a good as those first chapters, but I was willing to compromise to get it done.

Fast forward to now when I have received all the comments back from my beta-readers.

'Great story, loved it, oh... and your writing gets so much better after the first few chapters!' (all of them said this... all of them)

It's Pulp Speed for me from now on.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

I sent a PM as well. I'm glad so many of you are on Google+ as well as FB!


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

gerald: "stopped being precious"

Hah! Congratulations on figuring that out early


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

geraldmkilby said:


> Then I started to realise I'd never get the book done at that rate. I took some advice I read somewhere '_write your story to the end_'. So I stopped being precious and just wrote to the end with little or no revision. I knew in my heart this was never going to be a good as those first chapters, but I was willing to compromise to get it done.


Great story, thanks for sharing it!

Latest batch of invites went out. Thanks so much for all the interest, folks! So great to be building this group. Anyone else wants to join, read this thread again, and if you're still interested, PM me your email address or your Google+ account name and I'll send an invite out to you.


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

Well, I did PM an email address which may or may not work (first time I've tried doing a google+ community thing).


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

Just wanted to share my early experiences writing at Pulp Speed 6 for three days.

I wrote at Pulp 2-3 for the last twelve months, so I figured I'd give myself a big target this month. If I fail, I've not really failed - I'll still have plenty of new fiction written.

So anyway, I've written 8k per day for the last three days, up from a 4-5k a day average (with a few days over). Wow, has this been an eye opener.

Firstly, it's tough. Not for the reason you might expect either. My critical voice is hounding me that 8k a day is 'too much!' and that I'm tired and need a break. But actually, I'm only working a couple of hours more than I was before. And thinking about it, I'm not really tireder than I was before either.

So yes, I suggest if you want a massive battle and experiment in shutting up your critical voice, just try writing 8k for a few days in a row. It'll scream and shout, but if you set the bar high, it won't stop you.

Going to go for another day on this crazy streak, even though my critical voice is telling me it's cold and I'm tired and 8k is way too much.

The words, on the other hand, are flowing.


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## RachelMeyers (Apr 17, 2014)

Just read this whole thread through and yes!  It sounds great, I'm in.  Is the G+ group open to newbies? (I haven't actually published anything on this name yet).  I think the accountability would really help.
PM-ing.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Yep we're open to newbies. PM Jim!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

RKC said:


> Just wanted to share my early experiences writing at Pulp Speed 6 for three days.
> 
> I wrote at Pulp 2-3 for the last twelve months, so I figured I'd give myself a big target this month. If I fail, I've not really failed - I'll still have plenty of new fiction written.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing here--I appreciate the reasons for creating the Google+ hangout, but some info here from time to time, I think, would be greatly appreciated by most of our membership. 

Betsy


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

I've sent a PM too.

I'm nowhere near pulp-speed - but this strikes as a good direction to take myself in for 2015. I need a little bit more productivity and getting down to the basics of turning out words appeals to me greatly.


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

My experience with the pulp speeds...

Honestly, my challenge this coming year isn't necessarily to speed up but maintain a consistent speed.

Last month I wrote 107k and this month I'm on 36 1/2 k (both pulp speed 2 more or less).

But although each of these months wasn't too hard I've always had some life event that means I don't get quite to the million word year that I hoped for... often hovering over 600k or so. Decent Impulse speeds but not really my aim.

On a month by month basis pulp speeds aren't that difficult (for me) it's the consistency of effort to do it for an entire year that I fall down on.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Thanks for sharing here--I appreciate the reasons for creating the Google+ hangout, but some info here from time to time, I think, would be greatly appreciated by most of our membership.
> 
> Betsy


Well frankly I for one won't be posting daily word counts (new words or editing) or my personal challenges here. I don't feel comfortable sharing such things in a totally public place, which this is. I always feel kind of judged, like I'm doing either too much or too little, depending on how it goes. I think I'll feel a little more comfortable in a private group discussing nuts and bolts things like that--actually participating in the conversation rather than just lurking, that is. I might not be the only one.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

HSh said:


> Well frankly I for one won't be posting daily word counts (new words or editing) or my personal challenges here. I don't feel comfortable sharing such things in a totally public place, which this is. I always feel kind of judged, like I'm doing either too much or too little, depending on how it goes. I think I'll feel a little more comfortable in a private group discussing nuts and bolts things like that--actually participating in the conversation rather than just lurking, that is. I might not be the only one.


+1 I couldn't agree more.


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm pretty open about my speeds and word counts on here (I post to the thousand word a day thread), but only because this account isn't going to show up with my name on it. It'd take a bit of effort to associate my work with anything I write on this forum even under my own name. Almost none of which is fiction (it's tech writing where I write much slower  )

There's no doubt in my mind that it works to your disadvantage if people realize how quickly you're writing.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Steve Vernon said:


> I'm nowhere near pulp-speed - but this strikes as a good direction to take myself in for 2015. I need a little bit more productivity and getting down to the basics of turning out words appeals to me greatly.


I'm finding that getting down to the basics is also involving getting out of my own way and just letting the words flow. Shutting down the critical voice is really hard, but when I'm able to do it and just have fun, productivity rockets.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

shadowfox said:


> There's no doubt in my mind that it works to your disadvantage if people realize how quickly you're writing.


Well, I don't always write quickly. It really depends on a lot of things. I just tend to feel self-conscious and like everybody is staring at me if I talk about speed (or slowness) publicly too often. Part of that is just being a self-conscious person, I'm sure. Also, why do I still have trouble spelling "publicly?" I keep typing "publically."


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

HSh said:


> Well, I don't always write quickly. It really depends on a lot of things. I just tend to feel self-conscious and like everybody is staring at me if I talk about speed (or slowness) publicly too often. Part of that is just being a self-conscious person, I'm sure. Also, why do I still have trouble spelling "publicly?" I keep typing "publically."


There's a lot of people in the world who when you tell them you write 4 books a year they'll think you're a hack.

In the pulp speeds you're talking 15+ books a year.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Don't worry Betsy, you know I'll be opening my big mouth about what this has opened up for me!!! My process flipped on it's pretty little head and with dictation I'm tripling my word counts. My words are in two categories, raw and sparkle. Raw is what I dictate. So far the data is pretty strong that whatever the recording time is, half of that is what it takes to make the raw words sparkle, as in be ready to move on as final rough draft for my editor.

My process is #1 an outline of the scene. Just a few quick notes so I make sure my story is flowing logically. #2 Record. I prefer my Sony IC recorder because I can take that sucker ANYWHERE. The other night, I "wrote" all snuggled in bed with comfy pillows. Le sigh. I'm also ASTOUNDED by the amount of time I spend in the car driving. I clip the recorder to my viser, turn on the recorder and off we go! The other day I spent 53 minutes in the car, but had you said "Hey, do you think you spent an hour in the car today?" I would have been like, NO, maybe 30 minutes. Nope. It was an hour. An hour I ordinarily cannot write in, yet my brain is always racing with story stuff when I'm driving alone with no music. 53 minutes was 3400 words.

My process has morphed into raw words from last night greet me in the morning, ready and waiting to be sparklified. Man, it soooo gets me into my story to edit yesterday's work first thing in the morning and doesn't feel so "work like" to start my day. I will gladly put off writing later, later, later, but editing, that's fun for me because I can sip coffee. Then I record more material. 20 minutes is usually 1200-1600 words. Yesterday, I sparkled and typed a combination of 6,000 words and dictated another 4100 raw for today. And I dictated another hours worth this morning waiting at mt PT appointment, driving the 20 minutes round trip, and making coffee and lunch. I'm about to transcribe that now and expect to have 6000+ raw words to sparkle today which is WOOOHOOO. Because I'll be done with that by 1 PM and I'll still have another 2 hours before the kiddos come home. 

::SNOOPY DANCE::


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Love the info, Elizabeth! I just got my end of year bonus and I need to go check out Dragon and hope there's a version that works with my older PC. Those word counts are just...yowza. You must be thrilled. Hope it translates into many more titles for you!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

It doesn't happen overnight. Remember, my FIRST 20 minute session was 500 words. And I have tried, and failed, to use the program on two separate occasions before. You have to be firm with yourself for a few days to "Make it work" as Tim Gunn says. Once it clicks though . . . watch OUT!

I just transcribed the 57 minutes I dictated today (three separate files all added together). I have 3,000 raw words. I know for two of those scenes, I will be adding in a bunch as I was just getting a skeleton, the longer piece is a fairly concrete scene with just a few minor edits here and there. By skeleton I mean it reads more of Charcter walked to here. Character siad "blah blah" that I spend a little extra oomph to edit. 

I'm diving in now to edit all 7,000 raw words now (12:15 my time, mother in law called). Will report back when I'm done.


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## gspeer (Nov 10, 2010)

Jim, just sent you a PM to get into the group on Google+ if you're still taking people. Thanks!

Gary


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Well, let's try this again. Computer blitzed out on me.

Jim, thanks for posting the new link and info. I know I have problems with the critical voice. When I can turn it off and just write, I find I can easily do 4K to 6K or more, and will need little to no editing (mostly to fix typos because my fingers can't go as fast as my brain).



HSh said:


> Well frankly I for one won't be posting daily word counts (new words or editing) or my personal challenges here. I don't feel comfortable sharing such things in a totally public place, which this is. I always feel kind of judged, like I'm doing either too much or too little, depending on how it goes. I think I'll feel a little more comfortable in a private group discussing nuts and bolts things like that--actually participating in the conversation rather than just lurking, that is. I might not be the only one.


I know I don't feel comfortable sharing much here anymore. Between the nay-sayers, the elitists, the lurker drive-bys and other issues, I'm keeping things to myself. I feel much better posting on private boards where I can let my hair down and interact with professionals who can share and advise without the negativity.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> Love the info, Elizabeth! I just got my end of year bonus and I need to go check out Dragon and hope there's a version that works with my older PC. Those word counts are just...yowza. You must be thrilled. Hope it translates into many more titles for you!


I'm enjoying Elizabeth's posts about Dragon as well.

Girl, you got it going! I've become more willing to consider something like this program reading about how you're making it work for you. I have arthritis and carpal tunnel, and I know at some point I'm not going to be able to type (and already can't hand write much most days) and will need something like Dragon.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

EC said:


> Short fictional work is being swamped by ghosts - the entry bar is far too low, and you will never out-write the ghost houses. Never - so rather than write faster - write more words and rise above them.
> 
> I agree that the novel lengths are "riskier," as you have invested so much more time and emotional capital into them. If you never attempt to reach that level, and to give it a chance with at least three novels, then you'll never know how it will work out for you.


Thank you for this post, EC. I have been considering going shorter so I could have more books out. This is something I've known subconsciously since my reading also tend to be at the higher word count books. Yes, I would never be able to keep up with the ghostwrite in the shorter lengths.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

Okay, I finally read through this entire thread. I can't believe that I missed it the first time. Do I send the PM to Jim for the G+ group? I would love some support on getting my word count up for next year.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

artan said:


> Okay, I finally read through this entire thread. I can't believe that I missed it the first time. Do I send the PM to Jim for the G+ group? I would love some support on getting my word count up for next year.


Indeed, send me a PM with your Google email address, Anne. I'll get the invite out to you.


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## John C. (Dec 17, 2014)

I love the sound of this... PM sent!


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## Alyson (Apr 26, 2012)

Sent a PM. Looking forward to joining the group!


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Jim, bright holiday wishes to you and yours. It's been raining here, but it's supposed to clear by tomorrow, my oldest son has the day off, and there's food to be cooked in the fridge. We are blessed.

I've been slack on the group lately, but I'm still starting everyday with the goal to write something, any amount of words to move forward. And since I make my own covers, I work on those and well as the incidental jobs of doing this publishing thing.

If I can be consistent, I can make it. Pulp Speed One ahead, Captain!


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## Fast Typist (May 9, 2013)

PM sent.  I'd like to be part of group aiming for pulp speed.


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## LondonCalling (Dec 19, 2014)

Oooh, I like this thread...


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

With just a couple days left in 2014, and many of us prepping writing and publishing goals for the new year, I thought I'd bump this in case anyone else is interested in trying their hand at increasing their productivity in 2015 and joining a private Google+ group of like-minded writers. We're about 60 strong so far and the discussions and word counts are flying fast and furious. Big topics so far have been using dictation software to blow up word count goals, short to medium range goals, and a lot of support and growing camaraderie.

So, review this thread, and if the group sounds like something you'd like to be involved in (even as a lurker), send me a PM with your Google+ name or email address and I'll send the invite out to you. I'll bump this periodically as we head into 2015. No cap on members; the more the merrier.

Happy holidays for all who celebrate, and happy days to those who don't. Best wishes to a productive and successful 2015!


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## Christy777 (Oct 21, 2013)

> Thanks for the info on Dragon, folks. Can you use it with a smart phone through an app?


There IS an app that you can use for your smart phone, and then you can either use a copy and paste into Simple text syncing if you use Scrivener. Or, if you use Google Docs, you can do a quick copy paste after your session.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Happy New Year to all my fellow Pulp Speeders! May we each have good sales and a wonderful year full of all we dream of.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Did not make pulp speed in 2014.  But I got closer than I thought I might!  :-D  

I am just going to do my best in 2015 and see what happened--even if I don't get there.  

Best writing wishes to you all!


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## Kira Barker (Jun 22, 2014)

I just read the article now (because for most of Dec I was in my writing cave) and I found it highly inspiring. I'm about halfway there, because I terribly lack in consistency. Let's see if 2015 will be a game changer there!


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks for the bump, Jim. There might be some folks who didn't see the thread and are missing out on the great community you've built.

I had a slow start to the new year, but am back in the saddle and forging onward to Pulp Speed One!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Ditto that. I've been inspired by all the other members and have been working hard on my own stuff, and have written over 18k words so far this year. Got the new writing streak off to a great start.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Ditto that. I've been inspired by all the other members and have been working hard on my own stuff, and have written over 18k words this so far this year. Got the new writing streak off to a great start.


Wow, that's good. :-D

Personally I've written less than 1,000 words of fiction so far this year.  But the (good) reason for that is because I'm really sticking to my edits and should be able to finish with them soon! :-D

And yes, I feel like the group is helping me stick with the task.


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## Kira Barker (Jun 22, 2014)

I'm right now a little more than one day behind pulp speed, and that after not writing for almost a week - doing pretty well so far! Next week my writing speed will take a bad hit, though, but let's see if I can catch up in February! I'm weirdly excited about trying to aim for 1 mil this year, even if I only made 420k in 2014. Guess I'm still trying to shake off the stigma that good work needs to ruminate a little longer than that.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Closing in on the end of January (how'd that happen?). Hope everyone's writing and publishing and so forth is going well. Bumping the thread in case anyone wants or needs a little speed added to their game and more words under their fingers and a great private group's worth of encouragement along the way.

For my sake, I just broke through 53,000 words for the month so far yesterday, spread over about a dozen short stories and scenes to a few different novellas, and having great fun doing so. The group has been, and continues to be, a wellspring of support, inspiration, and information.


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## Lunachick (Jan 2, 2015)

Hi all. Is this group open to newbies too?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Lunachick said:


> Hi all. Is this group open to newbies too?


It's open to anyone who wants to join in an effort to write more.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

PMed! Had missed that the group was started! That's so awesome.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Sounds like you're doing really well, Jim! 

I've been doing some serious thinking about my writing, and doing a reboot -- changing up covers, blurbs, thinking about what genre I want to write. Serious mid-life writer stuff! So I haven't been writing much as I want to focus on whatever new path I think will work best for me. I'll be back to writing tomorrow, though. 

I still have a lot of words done this month, which pleases me no end. I'm aiming for Pulp Speed one, and consistency is my keystone.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

It's a new month! Time to bump this action up and see if anyone who missed this earlier might be interested in joining a small, private group of writers, all focused on writing more, faster, better, and who support each other and inspire each other to push push push yourself.

The group has been a blessing and a joy for me. With the daily accountability threads and the general camaraderie and inspiration gained from everyone, I managed to write just over 100k words in January, a personal record.

If you read this thread from the beginning and think you'd like to join in, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you an invite to the Google+ group. No obligation, all levels of writer welcome. Either way, good luck on your writing goals!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

It's nearly mid-month and I thought I'd bumpy-bump this action in case anyone wanted to join in the merriment. With 72 members strong I think we've scored most of the regulars, but as always, the group is open to anyone looking for support and encouragement in a supportive, friendly atmosphere that has a much lower signal-to-noise ratio than most writing forums and groups.

Check out the thread, ask questions if you have them, and then PM me your email address for G+ if you're interested in joining. No matter what you choose to do, may all your days be writing days.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Jim, you've done an awesome job! I've been a total slacker -- not even keeping up with the forum -- but I'm still trying. I've suggested the group to a few folks on another board who were interested, though I have no idea if they've joined.

Anyone who'd like to join the group, I want to emphasize that it's very supportive and friendly, no problems with the members at all. So if you'd like to try writing according to DWS's methods, get in touch with Jim and join us!


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I just wante to echo that Jim has done a great job and that the group is a very friendly and supportive place. Okay, and I also wanted to check out my new signature.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

The groups' accountability has helped me stay motivated even when life did a big raspberry in my face!  I am only at 49k now for the year, but I'm back to writing everyday!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MeganBryce said:


> Whoa! That is fantastic! Please keep letting us know about this... I might get over my aversion to having to learn how google+ works.


Sure, will do. I had never used G+ before starting this group, and once I got my privacy settings figured out, it's a breeze to use. I get email notifications on my phone as well, so whenever someone posts, I get it on my phone and that inspires me all over again. I attribute most of my writing speed this year to the awesomeness of the group.

If someone had told me on Jan 1 that by March 1 I'd have over 200,000 words worth of product in the hopper, I'd have called them a loon. But I'm there and still rolling and well on my way to my 1 million word goal for the year. My mind = boggled. Private writer group ftw.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Welcome to May! Time once again to bump this thread again and see if anyone who missed this earlier might be interested in joining a private group of writers, all focused on writing more, faster, better, and who support each other and inspire each other to push push push each other in an encouraging manner.

The group has been a blessing and a joy for me. With the daily accountability threads and the general camaraderie and inspiration gained from everyone, I'll well over 300k words written this year and well on the way to my million word goal.

If you read this thread from the beginning and think you'd like to join in, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you an invite to the Google+ group. No obligation; all levels of writer welcome. Good luck on your writing goals!


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I had a very slow writing month in March and totally didn't feel judged over it, too.


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## Michael La Ronn (Jun 17, 2013)

I just sent you a PM, Jim.


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## J.A. Marlow (Dec 18, 2010)

Yep, those of us puttering along at half-impulse are welcome in the group, for which I am glad. It's great to see what everyone else is doing, how their numbers are going up even when life hits them, and the supportive nature of everyone in the group. Thank you for starting it, Jim!


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

This is the speed I've always wanted to write at.  Between work and a 7 month old baby, time is sadly limited.

I do do rewrites though.  I normally write a real rough draft and then go back for a rewrite that adds 50-100% length.

Then there is the editing.  It seems to eat up more time than writing....  To go at pulp speed really seems to need someone to do that editing for you.


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## J.A. Marlow (Dec 18, 2010)

A. S. Warwick said:


> Then there is the editing. It seems to eat up more time than writing.... To go at pulp speed really seems to need someone to do that editing for you.


What I have found is that the more I write, the more I learn, and the more I practice (more writing!) the cleaner my first drafts are. I'm a putter-inner, as well, and I'm finding that even the amount I need to put in when the time comes for revision is slowly going down.

Keep at it!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

It's the Glorious First of June! Time once again to bump this thread again and see if anyone who missed this earlier might be interested in joining a private group of writers, all focused on writing more, faster, better, and who support each other and inspire each other to push push push each other in an encouraging manner.

If you read this thread from the beginning and think you'd like to join in, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you an invite to the Google+ group. No obligation; all levels of writer welcome. Good luck on your writing goals!


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

J.A. Marlow said:


> What I have found is that the more I write, the more I learn, and the more I practice (more writing!) the cleaner my first drafts are. I'm a putter-inner, as well, and I'm finding that even the amount I need to put in when the time comes for revision is slowly going down.
> 
> Keep at it!


Seconded. I've had similar results since I started writing more.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

A. S. Warwick said:


> Then there is the editing. It seems to eat up more time than writing.... To go at pulp speed really seems to need someone to do that editing for you.


I agree with JA and Perry. The more you write and read and practice and study, the better you'll get and the less time you'll end up spending on editing.

I just finished a short story for a workshop and experimented with Dean's concept of cycling through the story, and it's pretty much the first time I wrote a story without taking additional time afterward to edit. It was an interesting process and I want to practice it more. If it works for me, it'll save a ton of time on the back end.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

And just like that, July smashes in! Time once again to bump this thread again and see if anyone who missed this earlier might be interested in joining a private group of writers, all focused on writing more, faster, better, and who support each other and inspire each other to push push push each other in an encouraging manner.

This month some of us are going to take a shot at a fun challenge--writing a new short story every day in July. So, 31 days, 31 stories. Fun times. Onward!

If you read this thread from the beginning and think you'd like to join in, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you an invite to the Google+ group. No obligation; all levels of writer welcome. Good luck on your writing goals!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

August! Where did the summer go? Time once again to bump this thread and see if anyone who missed this earlier might be interested in joining a private group of writers, all focused on writing more, faster, better, and who support each other and inspire each other to push push push each other in an encouraging manner.

Last month some of us tried our hand at a DWS challenge to write a story a day. A few succeeded, a few failed to success. I was the latter, writing 14 short stories in the month. Didn't hit the goal, but hey; 14 more stories than I had at the start of the month. I'll be publishing them all by the end of the year.

Had a bit of a slowdown over the summer, my pulp speed writing is off the pace. I should be at about 600,000 words written so far and I'm only just a little past 450,000 or so. I'll keep digging and shoot for the million, but we'll see how that goes given the impending arrival of my bouncing baby boy in October.  

Anyway, if you read this thread from the beginning and think you'd like to join in the group, send me a PM with your Google+ email address and I'll send you an invite to the private Google+ group. No obligation; all levels of writer welcome. Good luck on your writing goals!


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Jim, you are still doing great, and your cat is awesome. Congrats on the impending addition to the family. As the mother of three not-so-bouncy boys, I'll just say it's the best thing that will ever happen to you.


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

she-la-ti-da: didn't know Lawrence Block had a writing book, totally buying it.  Ty!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Jim, you are still doing great, and your cat is awesome. Congrats on the impending addition to the family. As the mother of three not-so-bouncy boys, I'll just say it's the best thing that will ever happen to you.


Literally everyone I have talked to who has kids has said the same thing. Lots of trials and tribulations, but always the best thing that's ever happened. So I'll take it on faith that they're all right.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Congrats on the soon to arrive new baby. Now that's something worth missing a few writing days over.

Besides, 14 stories in 31 days is great.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

johnlmonk said:


> she-la-ti-da: didn't know Lawrence Block had a writing book, totally buying it. Ty!


 I think there's more than one, actually. I only have Writing the Novel, but I'm pretty sure I've read at least one other.

Jim, trust those folks. Parenting can be the hardest thing you've ever done, but the rewards are awesome. The first time you see that little face, you'll be amazed your heart can hold so much love and fear at the same time without bursting. It's been 37 years since my first was born, and I love him and his brothers more every day.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Congratulations, Jim!  :-D

As for the group, I've accepted that I'm probably not going to write a million words this year, but I'm finding it fun and useful.  I've varied my use of it month by month, whether that was posting every day word counts, to just checking in once every week or so.  

It's great, not too structured, but still offering support.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

This is going to sound like I'm trying to cause trouble, but I'm really not!

Can I ask why anybody listens to Dean Wesley Smith?

This is currently the most pushed book on his site, look at it's ranking... http://www.amazon.com/Warm-Springs-Thunder-Mountain-Novel/dp/1561466328

It was 7.4 million when I looked. I didn't even know the rankings went up that high!


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

HSh said:


> Congratulations, Jim! :-D
> 
> As for the group, I've accepted that I'm probably not going to write a million words this year, but I'm finding it fun and useful.


Oh, me too, with my move and everything, but there's always next year.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

B. Yard said:


> This is going to sound like I'm trying to cause trouble, but I'm really not!
> 
> Can I ask why anybody listens to Dean Wesley Smith?
> 
> ...


If I listened to DWS in every way I wouldn't be in KU. KU works for me (right now).

I find some of the things he says helpful especially about craft.

I'm not doing this for him; I'm doing this for me. 

Do your own thing. Find what works for you.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

HSh said:


> If I listened to DWS in every way I wouldn't be in KU. KU works for me (right now).
> 
> I find some of the things he says helpful especially about craft.
> 
> ...


Well yeah, I totally agree. I'm just unsure of his credentials.

He seems to have ghost written on some franchises, but that's trad published stuff.

His advice is on self publishing. I can't see a self pubbed book of his under a 4 million ranking. I've got a higher ranking than that and mines not even out yet!


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

B. Yard said:


> This is going to sound like I'm trying to cause trouble, but I'm really not!
> 
> Can I ask why anybody listens to Dean Wesley Smith?
> 
> ...


Well, in my case, I'm gleaning information about craft and writing from DWS, not so much following everything he advises. If I listened to DWS about everything, I wouldn't have a permafree book, which I consider a vital marketing tool.
Writing at Pulp Speed is one of those things I believe will help me produce (and sell) more books, so I'm going to keep working towards it.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

B. Yard said:


> His advice is on self publishing. I can't see a self pubbed book of his under a 4 million ranking. I've got a higher ranking than that and mines not even out yet!


Do a little more research. WMG Publishing is in effect his and hers self-publishing. You might notice its the same name as the lecture course is run under.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Do a little more research. WMG Publishing is in effect his and hers self-publishing. You might notice its the same name as the lecture course is run under.


I still don't see any self pub success at all?

People on here like Amanda (I hope she doesn't mind me using her as an example!), are selling upwards of 50,000 books a month. DWS looks like he hasn't sold that number in 5 years.

I'm just confused as to why anyone listens to him.



Mercia McMahon said:


> Do a little more research. WMG Publishing is in effect his and hers self-publishing. You might notice its the same name as the lecture course is run under.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

B. Yard said:


> I still don't see any self pub success at all?
> 
> People on here like Amanda (I hope she doesn't mind me using her as an example!), are selling upwards of 50,000 books a month. DWS looks like he hasn't sold that number in 5 years.
> 
> I'm just confused as to why anyone listens to him.


I can only assume you're looking at his print book rankings, which are different than Kindle rankings. DWS probably sells a couple copies of all his books a week, which probably brings in a lot of money when you have hundreds of books.

Still, I wouldn't listen to much of what he, or any other Self Publishing Cheerleader says. Most of them have made a career out of blowing smoke.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I find a lot of his craft advice useful, e.g. pulp speed, writing into the dark. His marketing advice not so much.

DWS and KKR get a bad rap on these boards because of their low sales figures (and since all of their books are wide, they might well sell better outside Amazon), but that doesn't mean they have nothing useful to say. Besides, I'm perfectly able to pick and choose which advice to follow and which to ignore.


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## J.A. Marlow (Dec 18, 2010)

CoraBuhlert said:


> DWS and KKR get a bad rap on these boards because of their low sales figures (and since all of their books are wide, they might well sell better outside Amazon), but that doesn't mean they have nothing useful to say.


No kidding on the "books are wide" part. Amazon pushing its exclusivity programs with the weight of their algorithms has caused my book sales there to tank (so don't bother checking. Yeah, I know they stink). Meanwhile, I'm making a lot more at other retailers that some people here don't seem to watch as much. Kris and Dean have mentioned the same thing multiple times, that they are surprised at what books take off at what retailer. Amazon is not all that there is out there. Not by a long shot.

If you want to hate on Kris and Dean, please take it to a different thread. The people who are a part of this Pulp Speed group are wonderfully supportive and positive no matter what speed any of us write at. It's been wonderful to be around such people. To anyone lurking who is thinking about joining but is concerned they aren't reaching pulp speed: don't worry about it. Most of us don't. But we still encourage each other just the same.

Jim, thank you for starting the group. Much appreciated.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

B. Yard said:


> I still don't see any self pub success at all?
> 
> People on here like Amanda (I hope she doesn't mind me using her as an example!), are selling upwards of 50,000 books a month. DWS looks like he hasn't sold that number in 5 years.


Now you are moving the goal-posts. You began by saying that he had no self-pubbed book with better rankings that 7,000,000, then 4,000,000. Now that its pointed out that there are other books you decide that he has to be equal to a Top 100 author.



B. Yard said:


> This is going to sound like I'm trying to cause trouble, but I'm really not!


You really are.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Now you are moving the goal-posts. You began by saying that he had no self-pubbed book with better rankings that 7,000,000, then 4,000,000. Now that its pointed out that there are other books you decide that he has to be equal to a Top 100 author.
> 
> You really are.


I honestly wasn't Mercia. I still can't find any books of his that look like they're doing well, but it might be that they do well on other platforms.

I was just asking as i keep seeing his name crop up, and wondered why. I think is reasonable to ask why people would revere someone who doesn't appear to sell many books.

I'll back out if the thread anyway, hands up in apology!


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

B. Yard said:


> I honestly wasn't Mercia. I can't find any books of his that look like they're doing well, but it might be that they do well on other platforms.
> 
> I was just asking as i keep seeing his name crop up, and wondered why.
> 
> I'll back out if the thread, hands up in apology!


Here's my take. I like what he says about craft. I don't agree with marketing process. I think you (general) can write the most marvelous work ever and in this landscape, if you don't have a good marketing plan, it will fizzle and die.

That's my thought only. It's based on my own research and the conclusions I've drawn.

But to do what I want to do - I need to write faster. I find that helpful.

And I really like talking shop with other authors who have similar mindsets. Pulp Speeders does that.

There are few whose advice and processes I will take at 100%.

Take what works for you and develop best practices for yourself. I'll tell you, being accountable to others who get it is a positive motivator for me. YMMV.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Lisa Manifold said:


> Here's my take. I like what he says about craft. I don't agree with marketing process. I think you (general) can write the most marvelous work ever and in this landscape, if you don't have a good marketing plan, it will fizzle and die.
> 
> That's my thought only. It's based on my own research and the conclusions I've drawn.
> 
> ...


Great advice Lisa.

*I am leaving the thread now!*


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

DWS aside, the pulp speed writers group is one of the most fun, least drama-filled, least troll-filled, most useful writing groups on the Internet. It's not for everyone - because of hearing about other people writing 3-5k words a day frustrates you instead of inspiring you, it's probably not a good fit. But for me, the group is solid gold.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

There is a pulp speed writers group?  Where about do they hang out?


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Google Plus. Send a PM to Jim Johnson and he'll add you.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

A. S. Warwick said:


> There is a pulp speed writers group? Where about do they hang out?


Read the thread, and then shoot a PM with your email address to me if you're interested in joining. Troll-free unlike most of the rest of the internet.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Another thing about DWS is he writes under a few pen names, most of which are secret. So we can't really know how much he makes or doesn't make. And I don't really care. I take what fits from his advice and leave the rest. I do the same for anyone here, or anywhere else on the web or the real world.

I'm willing to try different things, because as much and as long as I've been studying and practicing writing, I still don't know everything, and I also understand that publishing today is different than it was when I first started out (about fifty years ago, now).

Besides, Dean's methods fit the way I learned to write (I taught myself fiction writing), the way that works for me and lets me put out a good amount of words that need very little "fixing". I hate rewriting and editing, and would rather get it right the first time. Stephen King does the same thing, and I'd be willing to bet most pros are the same.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Another thing about DWS is he writes under a few pen names, most of which are secret. So we can't really know how much he makes or doesn't make. And I don't really care. I take what fits from his advice and leave the rest. I do the same for anyone here, or anywhere else on the web or the real world.


True that. I don't care what DWS or KKR make; none of my business. I don't care what any other writer makes. I do care how they've managed to make a long term 30+ year career out of writing. Just like anything, use what works and toss the rest. As Dean has stated repeatedly, every writer is different.

The pulp speeders group is geared toward getting the fear out of your way and writing and producing better content, faster than you are now. Marketing and so forth comes up in discussion but it's not a focus of the group.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

Here's my question: 

If his craft instructions are so good, then why aren't his books selling? Are we to assume that all his hidden pen names are the ones making him money? Why not reveal them as evidence to the contrary of what people are saying? He's in the business of teaching people how to write and sell successful fiction...does anyone have his actual stats on earnings or books sold?

Many successful authors reveal their stats and sales etc even when they are just helping other authors out by being open about their success. 

I am not saying he has to demonstrate his success, but surely he'd sell more places at his courses with some hard evidence? Maybe? I dunno just thinking out loud.


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## Kenzi (Jul 28, 2014)

KJC said:


> Here's my question:
> 
> If his craft instructions are so good, then why aren't his books selling? Are we to assume that all his hidden pen names are the ones making him money? Why not reveal them as evidence to the contrary of what people are saying? He's in the business of teaching people how to write and sell successful fiction...does anyone have his actual stats on earnings or books sold?
> 
> ...


How good a book is does not necessarily correlate to how much it sells. Anyway, DWS's advice about writing more, writing regularly, etc., is fairly universal. It's echoed by other successful writers here on Kboards practically every day. This thread isn't about his marketing or self-publishing advice. It's for people who want to write more.


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## Yesenia Vargas (Jul 30, 2014)

RKC said:


> Check out his newer Writing in Public posts. He's doing a topic every night now. There's always a gem of advice in there.


I enjoy these posts of his as well but haven't been seeing them lately...hm

Yesenia


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

Kenzi said:


> How good a book is does not necessarily correlate to how much it sells.


Then why write at pulp speed if you're not trying to sell it?


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Kenzi said:


> How good a book is does not necessarily correlate to how much it sells. Anyway, DWS's advice about writing more, writing regularly, etc., is fairly universal. It's echoed by other successful writers here on Kboards practically every day. This thread isn't about his marketing or self-publishing advice. It's for people who want to write more.


I'm all for writing more, but I do worry that he seems to be of the opinion that "rewriting isn't necessary" because the story is what sells, prose be damned. I hope people don't get into this mindset because it isn't at all true. Prose is very important, and it often takes quite a few rewrites to get the prose right. Perhaps DWS would sell better if he cared more about his prose.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

KJC said:


> Then why write at pulp speed if you're not trying to sell it?


Pretty much everybody at the Pulp Speeders group is trying to sell their writing. So is DWS. The numbers may not be high enough to satisfy you, but everybody has different goals.

And like Kenzi said, writing quality does not necessarily correlate with sales. We can all point to indie books which are full of typos and grammar issues and yet sell like hot cakes. And we all know wonderful books that languish in the 1 million plus ranks. Never mind that beyond obvious issues like spelling and grammar, writing quality is largely subjective anyway.


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## Kenzi (Jul 28, 2014)

KJC said:


> Then why write at pulp speed if you're not trying to sell it?


I don't really understand your comment. You questioned DWS's writing skills, basically, by suggesting he'd sell better if he wrote better. My point was that even really great, well-written books can fail. His style is not my cuppa, but...he can write.

I'm not sure how that leads to your question.



Briteka said:


> I'm all for writing more, but I do worry that he seems to be of the opinion that "rewriting isn't necessary" because the story is what sells, prose be damned. I hope people don't get into this mindset because it isn't at all true. Prose is very important, and it often takes quite a few rewrites to get the prose right. Perhaps DWS would sell better if he cared more about his prose.


Yeah, I think the "rewriting isn't necessary" advice is complete bunk. It gives me the heebies whenever I see someone say that.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

CoraBuhlert said:


> Pretty much everybody at the Pulp Speeders group is trying to sell their writing. So is DWS. The numbers may not be high enough to satisfy you, but everybody has different goals.
> 
> And like Kenzi said, writing quality does not necessarily correlate with sales. We can all point to indie books which are full of typos and grammar issues and yet sell like hot cakes. And we all know wonderful books that languish in the 1 million plus ranks. Never mind that beyond obvious issues like spelling and grammar, writing quality is largely subjective anyway.


So we shouldn't rely on quality of books to sell books then? Just because some books have errors and sell well doesn't mean that there isn't a typical quality that tends to be more likely to sell well. My point is that if his books aren't selling well then why would I think he's a good example of someone to follow?

This isn't me addressing your group or anything, I totally agree with writing as fast as possible, word sprints etc. But story crafting part is super important and so is marketing. If he isn't doing these things well then I would be reluctant to follow his 'method'.

I don't think it's anything new to try write good quality books as fast as possible. But surely crafting a book and selling it well is the best way to sell his courses?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Kenzi said:


> Yeah, I think the "rewriting isn't necessary" thing is complete bunk.


Heinlein wrote Rule Three back in 1947 when there was no indie publishing and top-notch editors could afford spend a lot more time editing a book that wasn't quite there yet. Based on the rewrites he suggested to people who sent him manuscripts, he obviously never intended that advice to be taken to an extreme. If you read it in context with the other rules, it was pretty obviously meant as, "Don't keep endlessly tinkering with it and rewrite it to death or it will never get done."


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

Kenzi said:


> I don't really understand your comment. You questioned DWS's writing skills, basically, by suggesting he'd sell better if he wrote better. My point was that even really great, well-written books can fail. His style is not my cuppa, but...he can write.


So with all his 'pulp' method, and him not selling well, he continues to write his books that don't sell well. Why? I guess that's the crux of what I am asking.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Briteka said:


> I'm all for writing more, but I do worry that he seems to be of the opinion that "rewriting isn't necessary" because the story is what sells, prose be damned. I hope people don't get into this mindset because it isn't at all true. Prose is very important, and it often takes quite a few rewrites to get the prose right. Perhaps DWS would sell better if he cared more about his prose.


Considering DWS is married to a Hugo Award winning editor who also serves as his beta reader, I guess that his prose is all right.

As for rewriting, the way I understand it what DWS objects to is endlessly tinkering with the same story over and over again, cause this usually doesn't improve the quality significantly. I also suspect that DWS is someone who tends to turn out fairly clean first drafts, so he may have issues understanding other writers who need more drafts.

Actually, rewriting is one point where I disagree with DWS. Though I do find that the more I write, the cleaner my first drafts get and the fewer subsequent drafts I need.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

KJC said:


> So we shouldn't rely on quality of books to sell books then? Just because some books have errors and sell well doesn't mean that there isn't a typical quality that tends to be more likely to sell well. My point is that if his books aren't selling well then why would I think he's a good example of someone to follow?
> 
> This isn't me addressing your group or anything, I totally agree with writing as fast as possible, word sprints etc. But story crafting part is super important and so is marketing. If he isn't doing these things well then I would be reluctant to follow his 'method'.
> 
> I don't think it's anything new to try write good quality books as fast as possible. But surely crafting a book and selling it well is the best way to sell his courses?


I know there is a tendency to see sales figures and Amazon rank (totally disregarding that a book might sell better elsewhere) as the sole arbiter of quality, but that's simply not true.

Take a look at this book: _The Hunger Angel_ by Herta Müller. Current rank: #835,959 Paid in Kindle Store

Wow, that Herta Müller must be a true hack, considering that ranking. Except that she won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 2009.

Sales, at Amazon and elsewhere, are determined by a lot of factors and writing quality is only one of them. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to turn out a book that's as good as you can make it. And I assure you that everybody at the pulp speeders group cares about writing quality.

I also don't see the point of this. So you don't care for DWS and his advice, because he doesn't sell at numbers that you find satisfactory? Fine, then don't read his blog. But why step into a thread where people discuss the things they do find valuable about his advice?

There are a lot of bestselling indie authors dispensing advice that I personally consider bad. However, I don't wade into those threads and tell the people who do find value in that advice why they're wrong.


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## J.A. Marlow (Dec 18, 2010)

CoraBuhlert said:


> I know there is a tendency to see sales figures and Amazon rank (totally disregarding that a book might sell better elsewhere) as the sole arbiter of quality, but that's simply not true.
> 
> Take a look at this book: _The Hunger Angel_ by Herta Müller. Current rank: #835,959 Paid in Kindle Store
> 
> ...


Well said, Cora. Thank you. Rather distasteful how some are trying to hijack this thread. It's no wonder so many long-timers have left KB.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

CoraBuhlert said:


> I know there is a tendency to see sales figures and Amazon rank (totally disregarding that a book might sell better elsewhere) as the sole arbiter of quality, but that's simply not true.
> 
> Take a look at this book: _The Hunger Angel_ by Herta Müller. Current rank: #835,959 Paid in Kindle Store
> 
> ...


I didn't say anyone was wrong. I asked a genuine question about why people follow his advice about story crafting when his stories don't sell. I am curious. I want to be persuaded to join this method. DWS is an indie trying to make money from his craft. He's also making money from trying to sell his method of crafting. Just because someone who can craft a good narrative sits at 800,000 on the rankings doesn't really dispute my point. A book that sells well is usually a book people enjoy. It's usually a book that's marketed well and appeals to what people want. Is everyone following DWS method trying to craft an award winning book that may or may not be marketable?

I write outside of genre restrictions do I am totally up for write what you love 

I genuinely hope that you're all crafting the kind of book that overlaps 'what I love' and 'what people want' -- sales are usually the evidence of the 'what people want part'.

I genuinely want everyone to do well and make lots of $$ so they can pay bills, feel validated, provide for the people they love, or generally just have fun.

Sorry I guess I just made the assumption that selling books is part of making a career out of writing. If DWS isn't the guy you're going to to learn how to sell the books (even if he's the guy you're learning to craft from) then who is?


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

J.A. Marlow said:


> Well said, Cora. Thank you. Rather distasteful how some are trying to hijack this thread. It's no wonder so many long-timers have left KB.


I apologise for how I came across. I guess for me personallyi wanted a convincing answer for why I might try his crafting classes. I want to learn from people walking the walk, that's all.

My apologies.


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## J.A. Marlow (Dec 18, 2010)

KJC said:


> I apologise for how I came across. I guess for me personallyi wanted a convincing answer for why I might try his crafting classes. I want to learn from people walking the walk, that's all.
> 
> My apologies.


I'm genuinely confused about the craft questions and the comments questioning the level of writing. You do realize that both these people have won multiple awards and honors in the writing industry, right? When it comes to craft, yeah, they know their stuff. I've taken several of their craft workshops, and they are fantastic.

Now, if you don't want to follow the marketing ideas (and I see so much of what they say taken to extremes to 'prove' that nothing they say should be thought about) then fine. Do other things. Marketing and promotion is a lot about experimentation anyway. They experiment and try different things all the time, too. Recently I've seen them use Bookbub and other services like them, promoting to book stores (they've mentioned in the past the high percentage of sales they get this way), book bundles that they are in and/or curate, selling direct to public, and so many other things. The idea that they advocate just slapping a book down in the market and let it flounder is false.

Please go to the source and look for yourself and don't rely on the nay-sayers. Take what works for you, leave the rest, and move forward. One thing Dean and Kris have done that is so wonderful is to pay forward. How many long-term professionals, that have been in the business for decades and make their full living as writers, do this? I for one am thankful they do so.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

J.A. Marlow said:


> I'm genuinely confused about the craft questions and the comments questioning the level of writing. You do realize that both these people have won multiple awards and honors in the writing industry, right? When it comes to craft, yeah, they know their stuff. I've taken several of their craft workshops, and they are fantastic.
> 
> Now, if you don't want to follow the marketing ideas (and I see so much of what they say taken to extremes to 'prove' that nothing they say should be thought about) then fine. Do other things. Marketing and promotion is a lot about experimentation anyway. They experiment and try different things all the time, too. Recently I've seen them use Bookbub and other services like them, promoting to book stores (they've mentioned in the past the high percentage of sales they get this way), book bundles that they are in and/or curate, selling direct to public, and so many other things. The idea that they advocate just slapping a book down in the market and let it flounder is false.
> 
> Please go to the source and look for yourself and don't rely on the nay-sayers. Take what works for you, leave the rest, and move forward. One thing Dean and Kris have done that is so wonderful is to pay forward. How many long-term professionals, that have been in the business for decades and make their full living as writers, do this? I for one am thankful they do so.


That all sounds really great. And getting BB ads can be hard so it seems like they are doing well. I appreciate that they are Hugo winners etc but appealing to authority doesn't convince me so much as their statistics on how they're selling. I don't think selling well is luck so much as constant analysing and understanding the market.

I think I am allowed to ask questions about this, no? I mean isn't the point of getting good information done by critically evaluating things that don't quite sound right? Or about trying to understand how negatives can be misconstrued?

I am just asking for more evidence. There's a lot of great writers who don't sell well, true, I guess I want to take course from the ones who do sell well. It sounds like you've found something that works for you, and I just wanted to understand further about the contradictions I have heard about his method.

I am not disputing the people, I am disputing their results that's all. But if enough people getsonething from their courses and advice then perhaps there is something there. I couldn't arrive at that conclusion without first addressing any fears Ij might have about possibly wasting my time or taking a bad career turn.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

KJC said:


> I apologise for how I came across. I guess for me personallyi wanted a convincing answer for why I might try his crafting classes. I want to learn from people walking the walk, that's all.


They've been walking the walk for 30+ years. Each. Want a long term career? Take some of their courses, particularly the craft courses. Be willing to learn from everyone. Question the naysayers and the pro-sayers (if that's a thing). Learn from all of them. Why? Because the essentials of good writing haven't changed. Good stories are good stories. Heinlein gave away the store with his rules back in the 40's and nothing's changed except more options on getting stories in front of readers. Marketing tricks and techniques come and go; good stories will always out.

Anyway. Ask questions, here and elsewhere, think about it, and keep learning and writing. There are 90-odd people who've joined this informal, fun, and supportive group. If that's something you want, let me know. If not, best wishes on your writing.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> They've been walking the walk for 30+ years. Each. Want a long term career? Take some of their courses, particularly the craft courses. Be willing to learn from everyone. Question the naysayers and the pro-sayers (if that's a thing). Learn from all of them. Why? Because the essentials of good writing haven't changed. Good stories are good stories. Heinlein gave away the store with his rules back in the 40's and nothing's changed except more options on getting stories in front of readers. Marketing tricks and techniques come and go; good stories will always out.
> 
> Anyway. Ask questions, here and elsewhere, think about it, and keep learning and writing. There are 90-odd people who've joined this informal, fun, and supportive group. If that's something you want, let me know. If not, best wishes on your writing.


I'm very interested in joining the group because I enjoy communities of writers (it's such a lonely profession) where I feel motivated. Especially to get my daily word counts in.

I guess I am confused a bit. I just heard a few people say that good stories don't guarantee sales. What do you think is the key to selling well, if it's not good stories? Maybe you don't want to discuss this... and that's fine of course... but I am genuinely interested in everyone's opinion of what they think sells their books.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

KJC said:


> I am just asking for more evidence. There's a lot of great writers who don't sell well, true, I guess I want to take course from the ones who do sell well.


Good luck with that. They're smart business people and don't advertise their earnings. Looking at one market (Amazon) to determine how well they're doing is a waste of time. The publishing company they started, WMG Publishing, has hundreds of titles. I imagine Howey and Data Guy can use their spider to pull ranks for all the titles, but, eh. Who cares? They're selling on all the major stores and internationally. WMG books have been reviewed in Publisher's Weekly more than a few times. KKR is regularly nominated for awards (latest is Sidewise) and is on the cover of one of the four Dell magazines practically every month. Question their marketing, sure. I sure as heck do. But their craft? Nah.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

KJC said:


> I'm very interested in joining the group because I enjoy communities of writers (it's such a lonely profession) where I feel motivated. Especially to get my daily word counts in.
> 
> I guess I am confused a bit. I just heard a few people say that good stories don't guarantee sales. What do you think is *the key to selling well*, if it's not good stories? Maybe you don't want to discuss this... and that's fine of course... but I am genuinely interested in everyone's opinion of what they think sells their books.


Good subject for a different thread. The one Annie B started today is a good one.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Good luck with that. They're smart business people and don't advertise their earnings. Looking at one market (Amazon) to determine how we'll they're doing is a waste of time. The publishing company they started, WMG Publishing, has hundreds of titles. I imagine Howey and Data Guy can use their spider to pull ranks for all the titles, but, eh. Who cares? They're selling on all the major stores and internationally. WMG books have been reviewed in Publisher's Weekly more than a few times. KKR is regularly nominated for awards (latest is Sidewise) and is on the cover of one of the four Dell magazines practically every month. Question their marketing, sure. I sure as heck do. But their craft? Nah.


Thank you. This was all I was looking for. You gave me some evidence  It's much appreciated.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

KJC said:


> Thank you. This was all I was looking for. You gave me some evidence  It's much appreciated.


Just as a random aside, I grabbed one DWS book off Kobo, and it's ranked #368 out of some 47,000 titles. Kobo clearly doesn't have the volume Amazon does. What does that even mean? Who knows?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Kobo's ranking algorithms are insane. You can't trust them at all. I've got horribly performing titles that rank way above my bestsellers because... I honestly have no idea why. There's no rhyme or reason to any of it as far as I can tell.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Just as a random aside, I grabbed one DWS book off Kobo, and it's ranked #368 out of some 47,000 titles. Kobo clearly doesn't have the volume Amazon does. What does that even mean? Who knows?


Well, no, it's ranked #1056 in Sci Fi & Fantasy, Space Opera.

That's 1056th book in that genre.

I thought your previous post about their credibility with craft was pretty good. I am still not convinced by the sales. Sorry.

On Amazon that book is:

http://www.amazon.com/High-Edge-Seeders-Universe-Novel-ebook/dp/B00OHUNQQY/ref=sr_1_4?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1438664181&sr=1-4&keywords=The+High+Edge


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Let's move on; this thread has evolved to be a thread for folks interested in exploring one specific idea--writing at pulp speed.  If that concept, as being practiced by the folks in the thread interests you, this is the right place.  It's not for a general discussion of DWS a, thanks.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

DWS is of the opinion that one doesn't need to be a "bestseller" to have a viable career as a writer. I happen to agree with that.

Heinlein said to only rewrite at an editor's request, to which Harlan Ellison added, "and only if you agree". DWS believes a writer should learn their craft to the point they can write clean first drafts, so they don't spend time reworking a story, and also to avoid endlessly polishing it. In this modern age of publishing frequently, that's actually a key point. Time spent with editors, or rewriting and "fixing" things, is time lost on the book shelf.

That's my last two cents on the subject of DWS himself for this thread. Put the cattle prod away, Betsy.

Now, who's gotten their words in for the day? I haven't yet, but it's still early. I plan to finish up a short and the edit of another (couple of things mentioned by beta readers, which I agree with, or I wouldn't do it) so I can get another collection out into the world. That's looking to be a couple of thousand, easily. Then it's on to the other two shorts I want to finish and publish so I can focus on longer stuff that can go in KU.


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## Katherine Stark (Jul 30, 2015)

I don't care one way or another about DWS, but I'm very interested in improving my own speed as a writer, and in writing cleaner drafts that require fewer rounds of revisions. I joined the Pulp Speed group under my main name and it's really inspiring to hear from others trying to accomplish the same thing. Just like any long-term process goals--losing weight, saving money for a major purchase, training for a marathon, whatever--simply hearing from others doing it and being reminded of your own goal and motivation is really inspiring!

Of course, what works for some won't work for all. For me personally, outlining is what has vastly increased my output speed, though I know many have switched into more exploratory writing. No matter. I like the accountability of reporting to the group on my progress toward my goals and in cheering others on.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

she-la-ti-da said:


> DWS is of the opinion that one doesn't need to be a "bestseller" to have a viable career as a writer. I happen to agree with that.


I've seen and read ALL the stuff, positive and negative, written about DWS since I've been a member of Writers' Cafe. These two sentences above are the smartest I've seen and read so far.

~~~~

I left more than half of the groups I belonged due to time constraints. Jim's was one of them. However, his group is a good one for authors interested in pulp speed. In addition, there's no trolls, and no drama or negativity.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Jolie du Pre said:


> I left more than half of the groups I belonged due to time constraints. Jim's was one of them. However, his group is a good one for authors interested in pulp speed. In addition, there's no trolls, and no drama or negativity.


And we'll welcome you back if and when your schedule eases up. Happy writing in the meantime, Jolie.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> And we'll welcome you back if and when your schedule eases up. Happy writing in the meantime, Jolie.


Thanks, Jim! I left your group many months ago, but I'm actually writing like crazy now. So the information in your group helped.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Hello September! We're two-thirds of the way through the year. How go your writing goals?

It's time once again to bump this thread and see if anyone who missed this earlier or who joined kboards in the last month might be interested in joining a private group of writers, all focused on writing more, faster, better, and who support each other and inspire each other to push push push each other in an encouraging manner.

If you read this thread from the beginning and think the group sounds like something you'd like to check out, send me a PM with your Google+ email address and I'll send you an invite to our private Google+ group. No obligation; all levels of writer welcome. Good luck on your writing goals!


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## Maeve in Texas (Jun 18, 2015)

Do you take people who are shooting for half a Pulp from that chart?
Also, hi Kboards.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Most of us don't actually make pulp speed 1 on a regular basis, just on occasion. So no worries, just join up. It's a great and friendly group.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Maeve in Texas said:


> Do you take people who are shooting for half a Pulp from that chart?
> Also, hi Kboards.


We welcome any writer interested in writing faster and fearlessly. You don't have to be writing pulp speed to join.  It's a goal, not a requirement.


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## BillSmithBooksDotCom (Nov 4, 2012)

Even though Dean is much more experienced than I and has sold a lot more books (and has a dapper last name to boot), I don't agree with all of his advice ...

But his idea that you can make a solid living with lots and lots of titles that sell modestly but steadily seems to be a no-brainer. It is the simple calculations of the traditional backlist -- when you become a Ray Bradbury fan by reading a book or story, you tend to binge read on all of his stuff. If you have 20 or 30 books to sell, you tend to make a lot more than having just two or three books to sell.

Dean has what I long ago deemed the "get on base" mentality -- sure, all of the headlines go to the guys who hit the homeruns, but you can make a really, really good living just consistently getting on base (having modest sales). And then, when you do hit a homerun, the sales of your other books tend to increase dramatically.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I loved the heck out of the WEG second edition SW RPG, Bill. Thank you for that game. I loved it so much I wore out my first copy and had to buy a second one. My friends and I got tons of value out of it, and it's one of the few SWRPG books I held onto when I purged my shelves in favor of the new Fantasy Flight SW RPG.

Anyway, I agree with you. Not all of Dean's advice works for me (not all of any one person's advice should work for anyone, really), but I love his concept of the magic bakery and how every story you write is another pie on the shelves with all sorts of sales potential in terms of copyright. The more pies you have on the shelf, the better. Build that backlist. Build a career. Don't rely on being a one-hit wonder or a short-term success.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

October rolls right in! How go your writing goals?

It's time once again to bump this thread and see if anyone who missed this earlier or who joined kboards in the last month might be interested in joining a private Goolge+ group of writers, all focused on writing more, faster, better, and who support each other and inspire each other to push push push each other in an encouraging manner.

If you read this thread from the beginning and think the group sounds like something you'd like to check out, send me a PM with your Google+ email address and I'll send you an invite to our private Google+ group. No obligation; all levels of writer welcome. Good luck on your writing goals!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Welcome to November!

It's time once again to bump this thread and see if anyone who missed this earlier or who joined kboards in the last month might be interested in joining a private Google+ group of writers, all focused on writing more, faster, better, and who support each other and inspire each other to push push push each other in an encouraging manner.

If you're participating in NaNo this year, the group might help encourage you to keep pushing to meet that 1,667 daily word goal. Pulp speed 1 is a bit of a stretch beyond--2,740 words a day, every day. So maybe try NaNo, and if you find you work well at that rate and can push yourself a bit, try to hit pulp speed in December or January.

If you read this thread from the beginning and think the group sounds like something you'd like to check out, send me a PM with your Google+ email address and I'll send you an invite to our private Google+ group. No obligation; all levels of writer welcome. Good luck on your writing goals!


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I got nowhere near pulp speed in October, and I wasn't highly active on the group, but I still felt supported in my goals.  I'm very glad you made this group, Jim.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

I'd love to be Pulp Speed worthy, but I tend to throw myself into a fibro flare up the day after when I try it. But Happy Pulp Speeding to all who have committed to it!


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

I'll ave to hit Pulp Speed 1 to catch up on NaNo already


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Whoops, got busy writing and publishing and taking care of the newborn and missed posting this.

It's time once again to bump this thread and see if anyone who missed this earlier or who joined kboards in the last month might be interested in joining a private Google+ group of writers, all focused on writing more, faster, better, and who support each other and inspire each other to push push push each other in an encouraging manner.

If you're participating in NaNo this year, the group might help encourage you to keep pushing to meet that 1,667 daily word goal. Pulp speed 1 is a bit of a stretch beyond--2,740 words a day, every day. So maybe try NaNo, and if you find you work well at that rate and can push yourself a bit, try to hit pulp speed in December or January.

If you read this thread from the beginning and think the group sounds like something you'd like to check out, send me a PM with your Google+ email address and I'll send you an invite to our private Google+ group. No obligation; all levels of writer welcome. Good luck on your writing goals!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Bumping for the new year. Are you looking to write more this year than ever before? Want a private discussion group full of writers working hard and producing insane word counts and supporting each other whilst doing so? Read the thread; if it sounds interesting, PM me your g+ email address and I'll send an invite out to you. No prereqs for membership, no fees, etc. Just good people working with each other to write more, more better.

Happy writing in 2016!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

New month, new bump, come on in and join the fun!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

It's March 1 and time for another bumpy-bump up in this place. Want in the group? Read the thread, send me a PM, and I'll send an invite your way. No pressure, no cost, awesome group to be a part of. So inspiring that I'm starting my pulp speed 3k words a day, 3 novels in 3 months challenge today.

Have fun and happy writing! Spring is just around the corner!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Spring has sprung, snitches! It's time once again to bumpy-bump this thread and holla at anyone interested in joining a super supportive private group of writers who are working toward upping their craft game as well as their writing speeds.

Read the thread, send me a PM if you're interested in joining, and I'll get an invite to you asap.

I'm living the pulp speed life right now and am having a blast. Starting month 2 of my writing challenge and looking to write at least 3,000 words a day spread across three 30-minute writing sprints.

And, bonus, doing this challenge got me the opportunity to do this awesomely cool thing:

http://selfpublishingroundtable.com/sprt-137-pulp-speed-how-to-write-it-maintain-it-and-achieve-warp-10-with-jim-johnson-and-ivy-sinclair

Anyway, let me know if you're interested. Newbies and veterans welcome. Have fun, and happy writing.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Congrats on being on SPR, Jim! And on your challenge. You're doing good.

Anyone who wants to write fast without criticism about it, this is the group to be in. Great members and Jim's a great host -- and I'm not saying that for brownie points, either.


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## SideShowAttraction (Mar 14, 2016)

I love DWS writing advice. I think he is a legend.

One question: When he talks about doing only one draft (NO rewrites) does he mean that he also does not make use of an outline too? I think it would be incredibly difficult in some stories to do this.


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## Jacob Stanley (May 25, 2015)

SideShowAttraction said:


> I love DWS writing advice. I think he is a legend.
> 
> One question: When he talks about doing only one draft (NO rewrites) does he mean that he also does not make use of an outline too? I think it would be incredibly difficult in some stories to do this.


He doesn't outline but he does edit as he goes along, (he has a specific way of doing it, which he calls cycling) and he constantly jumps around in the draft to tweak things, adjust for consistency, and etc. He doesn't wait till he's done. based on what I've read, it does sound like he trusts his first instinct most of the time, so I doubt if he makes lots of huge adjustments to the story during the writing process.

I've embraced a lot of the ideas from his book "writing into the dark" recently, and it's really improved my productivity. I haven't achieved pulp speeds yet, but the overall number of days from start to finish on a book have dropped quite a bit.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Dean writes into the dark without an outline, but he does sort of post-outline as he goes, in that he has a notepad next to him and as he finishes a chapter, he'll jot down what happened in that chapter and what the characters were wearing, etc. so that as he moves forward in the book, he can keep the details consistent and he's seen where the story has been.


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## SideShowAttraction (Mar 14, 2016)

Thanks guys for clearing that up.  It still sounds an incredibly difficult process.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

SideShowAttraction said:


> Thanks guys for clearing that up. It still sounds an incredibly difficult process.


It may sound difficult, but as several other authors have stated, "The more you write, the easier it is to write." To be honest, if you're starting out, striving for such a huge goal might burn you out. You build stamina over time. I see these authors who are writing 10K per day, and I am floored. My best days are 3-5K. Occasionally more. And on those days, I still feel guilty when I have to stop writing for the day. But every writer works differently. What works for some, doesn't work for others. Pace yourself, and in time, you'll probably find that the words flow easier.


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## SideShowAttraction (Mar 14, 2016)

But how to do it?

I started a book a while back and ended up with over 100k words where the characters were going all over the place. I also found I had too many characters and the entire story just went into outer space.

I rewrote it from scratch and it was kind of better but not that much better.

To be honest I prefer the idea of just getting the story down and writing it. But I have also been told that having an outline is essential. 

How can I write the story without dozens of threads spilling off in different directions?  If I only write without thinking of an outline I can get 4000 to 5000 words down a day easy. But these words are often not in a streamlined story.

If I just write every day will that improve as my sense of story-telling improves in my mind?

Thanks for any replies.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

SideShowAttraction said:


> But how to do it?
> 
> I started a book a while back and ended up with over 100k words where the characters were going all over the place. I also found I had too many characters and the entire story just went into outer space.
> 
> ...


What is the ultimate goal of your plot? Who is the main character (protagonist & antagonist)? Sometimes, you may have too many characters. An outline might help you out quite a bit to narrow down your direction. If characters are moving the story away from the main plot, they might not be needed for this story. You might have several novels that you're trying to compress into a singular book. It's hard for others to interpret, but always ask yourself if the characters are moving the story forward or causing different problems on their own.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

SideShowAttraction said:


> If I just write every day will that improve as my sense of story-telling improves in my mind?


Well...no, not really. If you're not consuming story by reading a lot (or watching good TV shows and movies, but esp reading a lot) and studying craft, you could end up churning out words day after day with no focus or story. It's hard to learn to write in a vacuum. Keep filling your story brain funnel with more story and craft education and information, and keep writing--try practicing specific techniques with each story you write.

I guess it's probably something that's not emphasized enough--writing fast isn't enough; you have to be working on the craft thing too.


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## AnnaBF (Aug 25, 2014)

Enjoyed you and Ivy on the SPRT podcast. Very inspiring.

Have an editor booked for next week so have to write about 15,000 words this week. Should be able to do it if I focus and Stay. Off. Internet.

Sending you a PM to join your group.

Thanks,

Anne


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Happy May Day, Happy Beltane, happy Sunday, happy whatever!

Time once again to bump this thread and invite anyone interested to read the thread and check out the pulp speeders writing group on G+ if you're so inclined. It's a private group full of good writers dedicated to writing more, faster, and having fun in the process.

If you like what you read in this thread, send me a PM with an email address you want to use for G+ and I'll get an invite out to you for the group.

Have fun, and happy writing!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Got so busy editing and taking care of the 9-month old that I forgot to bump this thread for anyone interested in joining the group. Read the thread, see if you're interested, PM me if so. Happy writing, folks!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> I should really join. I was thinking last night about how many more books I have to write and how slowly I'm finishing them, so it would probably give me an incentive to get some done .


Join ussss....


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Come over to the dark side, Edward. It's so fun.... Um. What was I saying? Anyway, I think you'd like the group, very nice, very inspiring (I want to be Cora when I grow up).

I agree with Jim, in that just writing won't really do much for a new writer. You have to actively study the craft of writing and put the lessons into practice. As you get experienced, you can try to find different things to help with speed, plot development, character development and so on. Writing methods -- like writing into the dark -- won't work for everyone. Some people need the structure of an outline, no matter how detailed or how sparse it may end up being, or they don't feel right. And that's fine. Don't let anyone tell you outlines are good or they're bad, just find what's right for you.

I write into the dark and I'm happy, happy, happy. Better words, better word count, better story (I think so, anyway). But, that's what works for me.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 18, 2015)

Jim,

I'm not a member of your group, but I just had to do a little self congratulatory post: I just hit my best ever weekly word count at 30,427.

Sorry, just had to share 

Thanks.

Brian


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## MJ Stark (Jun 24, 2016)

BWFoster78 said:


> Jim,
> 
> I'm not a member of your group, but I just had to do a little self congratulatory post: I just hit my best ever weekly word count at 30,427.
> 
> ...


That's fantastic - congratulations!


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## Summerstars (Mar 23, 2016)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> What is the ultimate goal of your plot? Who is the main character (protagonist & antagonist)? Sometimes, you may have too many characters. An outline might help you out quite a bit to narrow down your direction. If characters are moving the story away from the main plot, they might not be needed for this story. You might have several novels that you're trying to compress into a singular book. It's hard for others to interpret, but always ask yourself if the characters are moving the story forward or causing different problems on their own.


I agree. The biggest mistake I made for the past few years which prevented me from developing as a writer was not listening to my characters.

Jim, I've really enjoyed your posts and your 3 novel challenge. So awesome to see you have this pulp speed group. Will PM you


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Great; looking forward to hearing from you, Summerstars.

And Brian, congrats on the word count. You'd be welcome any time as a member.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 18, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> Great; looking forward to hearing from you, Summerstars.
> 
> And Brian, congrats on the word count. You'd be welcome any time as a member.


Jim,

I don't really do Google+. Sorry.

I think your group is a wonderful idea, though. Best of luck with it.

Besides, I'm not sure I'm actually a great fit. I use outlining and sprints to write my first draft quickly, but after that, I slow down way below pulp speed and do lots and lots of revising. It's really cool to get that first draft on paper, but after that, getting the writing right takes me a lot of time.

Thanks, though.

Brian


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## Gerald Hartenhoff (Jun 19, 2010)

Just joined the group. Thanks Jim.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

And just like that, July shows up and introduces the second half of the year.

Time once again to bump this thread and invite anyone interested to read the thread and check out the pulp speeders writing group on G+ if you're so inclined. It's a private group full of good writers dedicated to writing more, faster, and having fun in the process.

If you like what you read in this thread, send me a PM with an email address you want to use for G+ and I'll get an invite out to you for the group.

Have fun, and happy writing!


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## Renard (Jun 21, 2016)

And I'm in! Looks like an industrious group of writers you've assembled, Jim. Thanks for putting this together.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MarkFeenstra said:


> And I'm in! Looks like an industrious group of writers you've assembled, Jim. Thanks for putting this together.


You're welcome, Mark. May you find as much joy in the group as I have!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Welcome to August! Time once again to bump this thread and invite anyone interested to read the thread and check out the pulp speeders writing group on G+ if you're so inclined. It's a private group full of good writers dedicated to writing more, faster, and having fun in the process.

If you like what you read in this thread, send me a PM with an email address you want to use for G+ and I'll get an invite out to you for the group.

Happy writing!


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## Freddy Hill (Sep 7, 2016)

Okay, so how do I join in in the Pulp Speed fun


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

o hai

Happy almost holidays, folks. I totally got swept up in life and forgot to bump this. Haven't been on the kboards as much lately.

So, pulp speeders. The group continues forward as it has, writing away, having fun, being supportive. Want in? PM me your email and I'll get an invite out to you. It's a google+ group, not facebook.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Also, looks like Google+ doesn't like Yahoo email addresses...


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> LOL. I've been too busy writing lately to post anything to it .


Ditto. 15-month old toddler, work, writing, and freelance work has kept me busy.


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