# Books Butterfly is threatening website owners and authors with legal action



## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

Books Butterfly is threatening website owners and authors with legal action if they don't remove negative reviews about their service.

Long Story short (or not so short):

I own a small promo site and a few years back I decided to have a small review section on my site, featuring various promo services on the web - just to help the author community a bit in figuring out which site produces the best results, has good customer support etc. I never fully finished this project and out of a planned hundred sites to review, I put up like a dozen and then kinda forgot about it. Books Butterfly was one of those.

During those two years, Books Butterfly received about 10 negative reviews, all criticising their poor communication and results, with some going so far as calling them a scam.

A few days ago, their representative contacted me and demanded I remove the negative reviews and share the private e-mails of the reviewers so that they could contact them. If I refused they threatened with legal action, saying they will 100% sue me for defamation and libel, and for damages dealt. (To note, they asked nicely in the first e-mail, but once I said no to sharing private e-mails of my users, they lost it and started the threat chain)

They wrote a good dozen e-mails in an hour, harping on about how great their service is and how unfair the reviews were and how it's illegal for me to support such defamation. They kept threatening to sue me and quoting numbers like 350,000 fines and so on.

To paraphrase, they wrote things like: "we'll 100% sue you for defamation and libel if you don't remove the reviews or take down the whole page about Books Butterfly" and "we'll sue you for triple damages and the mental damages and anguish caused by them having to worry over the livelihood of their employees because of the damages I had done to their business".

I eventually removed the whole review section because I had pretty much forgotten my review section even existed and I had better things to do than argue with this nut case. But even after I had removed it, they still kept hounding me with e-mails. I had to block their e-mail completely.

Now, today, I received an e-mail from one of the people who had written their review. They asked me to remove it because they were being threatened with legal action by Books Butterfly.

I literally cannot believe this [crap].

I have never heard of a company so insecure in the service they offer that they feel the need to straight up harass people over their negative opinions about the service. One would think that if these reviews keep popping up year after year that something is wrong with their service, but no. Apparently that concept is foreign to them, instead of fixing their service - whether it's communication issues or negligence - they spend their time trying to silence critics and threaten people.

And let me say it again - I already removed my whole review section days ago. The page literally doesn't exist anymore. But apparently that's not enough either.

A company that keeps harping on about how they've serviced thousands of people with almost no complaints, how they help authors for free even, and then they pull this [crap] and harass people over their negative opinions, and act like a handful of negative reviews on a small site that maybe got 5 visitors a month to the review site is damaging the livelihood of their employees and causing mental stress and anguish...

I can't comment on whether or not their service gets good results or not, but their representative has got to be one of the biggest [Uranus]s I've ever had the displeasure of running into in my whole life. And that's saying a lot because I've met some straight up nasty people. But none of them have harassed me in quite this manner.

Acting like I'm part of some grand conspiracy against their site. Like holy [crap], how big is that persons ego? Thinking people care enough about their site to collectively take part in some defamation campaign. Jesus. It's like they cannot accept the fact that maybe, just maybe, their service isn't quite as grand as they make it out to be and some people are p*ssed off for losing their hard earned money for no results or communication.

If your service is good, the word of mouth will be good and nobody would bother to write bad reviews nor take them seriously.

Whomever owns Books Butterly, let me just say that your representative is probably the sole reason why your promo site has such a horrible reputation. I suggest you fire them. And if that person is also the owner of the site, well, let me just suggest you leave the daily workings of the site to your team and go do something else that doesn't require human interactions, because you really suck at it.

---

I wholly expect BB representative to show up this thread in about 5 minutes writing a 20 page essay about how bad of a person I am and how they're the poor victims just trying to defend themselves. They will probably ask the mods to remove this post as well because it's no doubt further defamation and libel and we all need to pay 350k if we want to continue breathing in this world.

But whatever, I've said what I felt needed saying. I've posted similar things on other sites, so if BB wants to go to war with the entire free internet, they are welcome to try.

---

_To respect the rules of this forum I have removed snippets of the e-mails that I was sent.

I also decided not to post any of the actual reviews that BB was so worried over, because I'd rather not have them sue this site too, lol. But let me just say, out of the reviews in question that were posted on my site, only 2 were questionable, calling BB a scam but not specifying anything further. Those were also the only reviews I agreed to initially remove because they didn't add any value. Several others went into great detail on how they received no responses from BB about their promo's, how the promo's produced no results or how BB didn't even double check in one case if the book was at the designated price and ran an almost $200 "on sale" ad on a full price book. Those I thought were totally fair reviews of people voicing their experiences.

If mods want to see those reviews, the plugin I used for my site still has them stored, though they are not publicly available. 
_


_edited, PM if you have questions -- Ann_


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

Acheknia said:


> I'd remove them (as you have done) but then email back something to the effect of...
> I am a reasonable person so all you needed to do was ask.
> As you have bombarded me with unreasonable threats & have caused me so much stress, I may consider suing you.
> Please refrain from harrassing & stalking me, even after I've done as you ordered.
> ...


Oh you can believe I gave them a piece of my mind.

Though to be fair, their initial request was decent, not going to lie. It started off nice enough. But after I explained that I cannot reveal the e-mail addresses of other people as that would be a breach of privacy, and that I would only remove a few of the "scam" reviews (because they were very short with no details - just "it's a scam"), they lost their [crap] demanding I remove basically all reviews, even those that went in full detail and didn't contain any defamation or libel that I could see. And then started to threaten with legal action. Sent me like 5 e-mails in 10 minutes.

After I removed the whole review section, I told them I had done so and asked them to stop harassing me or I would sue them for harassment instead. To which they responded with the messages you can see above.

After that I just blocked their e-mail. It had become clear they could not read, nor comprehend basic law or have any notion of tact.

Imagine contacting any website and demanding they reveal the e-mails of their users. And acting as if it's a valid request and I'm the guilty party for protecting the privacy of my visitors. God damn, lol.


_edited, PM if you have questions -- Ann_


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2018)

I would tell them to shove it.
Reviews, good and bad, fall under free speech.
Out of curiosity, I just did a Google search on "Amazon sucks"
Go ahead. Try it.
You'll get a first page of folks bashing Amazon.
Try other top brands.
I'd tell that Books Butterfly to shove it.

Hey, shove it.


_edited, PM if you have questions -- Ann_


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

okey dokey said:


> I would tell them to shove it.
> Reviews, good and bad, fall under free speech.
> Out of curiosity, I just did a Google search on "Amazon sucks"
> Go ahead. Try it.
> ...


Yup. You can go on any site that allows reviews about anything and you'll see hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, probably millions of reviews straight up bashing companies, brands, products to an insane degree. A lot of it more than likely defamation, libel, straight up lying by fake accounts etc. And nobody gives two [crap]s. Reviews like that stay up for years. It's just not reasonable to expect any review site to check the complete validity of every single review and play judge in determining whether or not it defamation or not. That's insanity.

And I actually mentioned this to them as well. Here's what they had to say about that:

_removed -- please do not share private correspondence from off the boards -- Ann_

They actually think people are actively trying to destroy them. My god the ego. And the Naivete.

If someone wanted to destroy an online site/service, they would not settle for a handful of negative reviews over a 2 year period, lmao. They'd pay for someone to hack and bring down the site, and pay someone to write 10,000 negative reviews and post them on every social media site on the web. And that would just be for starters.


_edited quoted post, PM if you have questions -- Ann_


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2018)

Yeah, if someone tossed your book a one star review, threaten to sue them because the review might cost you a sale or two.
See if the review is taken down jiffy quick.
Like I said, tell 'em to shove it.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

A good business is not so much characterised by doing what it says on the box, but by how they treat customers when inevitably something effs up.


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

okey dokey said:


> Yeah, if someone tossed your book a one star review, threaten to sue them because the review might cost you a sale or two.
> See if the review is taken down jiffy quick.
> Like I said, tell 'em to shove it.


Yup. I was actually ready to forget this entire incident until this morning when I got that message from one of my old customers who had written one of those negative reviews and is now getting harassed. I kinda lost it right there. If it was just me, I'd have ignored the matter as it wouldn't have been worth my energy to deal with. But harassing my customers? To the point of forcing them to contact me to forward their harassment further? Hell no I'm not letting that go.

Flexing your "company muscle" and threatening and scaring authors with legal action they most likely have no means to fight, is taking it too far.



Patty Jansen said:


> A good business is not so much characterised by doing what it says on the box, but by how they treat customers when inevitably something effs up.


Bingo. Good customer service goes a very long way. And if you do decide to be more callous - which in itself is totally your choice - you should be ready to accept any downfall. I've had some very difficult clients towards whom I haven't been the nicest (like one client who kept forgetting to set their promo dates properly for like 10 times out of 15 promo sessions, and every time I lost money and time), but I also fully expected them to give me bad rep, write bad reviews or whatever. And I'm okay with that. You can't please everyone, some negative responses are always going to happen. You don't gain anything from trying to make them go away. That energy is better spent elsewhere.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Apparently, the owner of BooksButterfly has very recently been in touch with KBoards -- or, rather, with the previous ownership who referred him to present ownership. I know he's had issues before with what we've allowed to be posted here. He does still have an account here.

Please note: we are reviewing this thread -- it may be we will ask that the screen shots of private correspondence be removed. I have already removed an epithet that was not caught in our filter and instances of personal attack or negative characterization that went beyond what we allow here -- towards anyone.

*Please keep our Forum Decorum in mind* as you discuss your thoughts on this -- or any other -- topic. We require civility and will not tolerate name calling or other negative ad hominem characterizations.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2018)

Just check out their homepage that looks like it was created in 1995 and that tells you everything.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

I would never in a million years work with a promoter who threatens legal action over less than favorable review. Smells of another legal case where several authors were sued over expressing opinions and support for another author in a dispute with a promoter. 

Thank you for sharing your experience. One single person being treated like that makes an impact on me. Marking this thread for future reference. 👍🏻


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

FWIW, I've used James's service a few times in the past. He was always professional, friendly, and reliable.

A lot of irritated folks rant and embellish, and thus I take what they say with a grain of salt. I accept everything James says at face value.

_*ETA*_: James is the OP.


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Please note: we are reviewing this thread -- it may be we will ask that the screen shots of private correspondence be removed. I have already removed an epithet that was not caught in our filter and instances of personal attack or negative characterization that went beyond what we allow that here -- towards anyone.
> 
> *Please keep our Forum Decorum in mind* as you discuss your thoughts on this -- or any other -- topic. We require civility and will not tolerate name calling or other negative ad hominem characterizations.


It's all cool. Feel free to remove the screenshots or edit out any bad words and such at your leisure. I'm not very good at toning down my voice to suit family friendly discussions. Kinda lost it over the situation which I considered absurd.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

ArchangelEST said:


> It's all cool. Feel free to remove the screenshots or edit out any bad words and such at your leisure. I'm not very good at toning down my voice to suit family friendly discussions. Kinda lost it over the situation which I considered absurd.


Thanks for understanding . . . . I'm waiting for the other mods to have a chance to offer an opinion on the screenshots -- but we're all 3 in different time zones at this moment so it may be the end of the day before we can all have a chance to chime in. In general, though, we do not allow re-posting of private conversations from OFF Kboards. Correspondence between you and someone else posted without the someone else's permission is problematic.


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Thanks for understanding . . . . I'm waiting for the other mods to have a chance to offer an opinion on the screenshots -- but we're all 3 in different time zones at this moment so it may be the end of the day before we can all have a chance to chime in. In general, though, we do not allow re-posting of private conversations from OFF Kboards. Correspondence between you and someone else posted without the someone else's permission is problematic.


Fair enough. Let me just save you the head-ache and remove the screenshots for now and just replace them with general overview of what was said. If you later decide you want to see the real deal or any of the reviews that started this whole incident, I can always post them.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

ArchangelEST said:


> Fair enough. Let me just save you the head-ache and remove the screenshots for now and just replace them with general overview of what was said. If you later decide you want to see the real deal or any of the reviews that started this whole incident, I can always post them.


Thank you!


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2018)

Anarchist said:


> FWIW, I've used James's service a few times in the past. He was always professional, friendly, and reliable.
> 
> A lot of irritated folks rant and embellish, and thus I take what they say with a grain of salt. I accept everything James says at face value.


Who is James?


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

C Winters said:


> Who is James?


That's me, the name I use for my books. Some people here know me by that name because we've worked together or are friends on FB. I don't use this forum to advertise my site (at least not in a while) so it makes sense you wouldn't know.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

C Winters said:


> Who is James?


isn't the the book butterfly service owner?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

ArchangelEST said:


> That's me, the name I use for my books. Some people here know me by that name because we've worked together or are friends on FB. I don't use this forum to advertise my site (at least not in a while) so it makes sense you wouldn't know.


I'm glad this was clarified, as it sounded from Anarchist's post that James referred to BooksButterfly.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

They've been on my avoid list for a while now. While I appreciate any promoter / marketing service who is happy to come onto this forum and talk to us / clarify things / answer questions, in the past they've taken that to the unsavory level of outright arguing.  There's plenty of places for me to spend my marketing dollars that are drama free.


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

Lydniz said:


> I'm glad this was clarified, as it sounded from Anarchist's post that James referred to BooksButterfly.


That would have been a yikes twist on this post, heh.

I actually don't now who runs BB exactly. Their site doesn't specify. Though the person I corresponded with seems to be listed as the contact and CEO on their site and linkedin and pretty much everywhere I can see.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

I'm sorry you are being harassed, but grateful you alerted us. Definitely not people I want to have dealings with. If you can't treat others with respect, you don't deserve my money or respect.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2018)

ArchangelEST said:


> That's me, the name I use for my books. Some people here know me by that name because we've worked together or are friends on FB. I don't use this forum to advertise my site (at least not in a while) so it makes sense you wouldn't know.


Oh wow, I was thinking, what is a smart dude like Anarchist vouching for that website. I mean, you cannot let your website look like that and offer services in that format. No self awareness at all from them, then you have reputable authors talking about terrible communication and rudeness from the administrator. The posts they've left on this forum don't even sound like a normal person speaking, they're written like their 1995 website. Badly formatted, full of useless information, go on forever, and just company speak.

_Edited. - Becca._


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

C Winters said:


> Oh wow, I was thinking, what is a smart dude like Anarchist vouching for that website. I mean, you cannot let your website look like that and offer services in that format. No self awareness at all from them, then you have reputable authors talking about terrible communication and rudeness from the administrator. The posts they've left on this forum don't even sound like a normal person speaking, they're written like their 1995 website. Badly formatted, full of useless information, go on forever, and just company speak. I don't think they're a scam but whoever is in charge has personal problems.
> 
> _Edited. - Becca_


Yeah, they're a weird case. They claim to have made millions of dollars from their book apps alone, yet they somehow manage to have a website that looks worse than mine, even though mine was built for essentially zero cost, just a wordpress template that I worked with out of my spare time.

You'd imagine that a company that made millions would have the finances to put up a site rivaling BookBub or something.

And yeah, they seem to be extremely adamant and filling page after page about how great their company and service is, how successful and well liked. How they have like 50 websites and social media accounts working super hard and having amazing results.

But you know what makes me personally sceptical about it? That they list having sold 5000 promo packages through-out their near decade old operation. Now, I'm a 1 man deal, and in the last 3 years, I've done about 1000 promotions. Through one, tiny, fairly crappy site with basically zero promotion (because I don't have the time nor energy to promote full time, so I keep it small on purpose). And with zero claims about how good I am. In fact I even tell people on my site to try out other services first, lol, because I can't predict if what I do will help them or not.

For a decade old company with apparently millions in revenue and a whole team working in multiple countries across the globe, I'd kinda expect them to have serviced tens of thousands. Then again, maybe it's just that their prices are too high for what they produce. Who knows.

Again, not trying to talk [crap] about them, just agreeing with you that there is reason to be sceptical.



DanielGibbs said:


> I read posts like this, take in the world around me at large (the lawsuit thread comes to mind), and the general behavior of random people (customer no service lines are a great example of this)...
> 
> Makes you want to move to a deserted island and avoid human contact at all costs.
> 
> ...


I'm planning to move to Japan soon. They're a country full of people who's life motto is to stay out of everyone elses business. It's a country where if a train is 1 minute late, the conductors come out and apologize and bow. A country where you're not even allowed to use the phone on the train nor eat/drink while walking because you might bother other people. A country where you don't even have bins on the street because nobody is littering.

I want to move there so bad, lol. To get away from the drama of the western world.

_Only quoted post was edited. - Becca_


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Sorry for the confusion caused by my post. In retrospect, it was unclear and misleading.

I was indeed referring to the OP (ArchangelEST).


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Glad you clarified! 

Honestly, this doesn't surprise me.  You can look through their posts here to see a pattern of...  well, a pattern. 

Conspiracy, victimization, attacking their customers... guaranteed downloads... refusal to explain their process. 

You really have to be careful when choosing a company to promote your book.


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

Bill Hiatt said:


> Just in case anyone was wondering, product reviews are protected speech under the First Amendment, as reaffirmed in the Consumer Review Freedom Act. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/yes-you-can-post-negative-online-review-says-congress-n693001. Note that it is still possible for the text of a review to be defamatory under some circumstances. https://practice.findlaw.com/practice-guide/online-reviews-and-defamation.html For example, you can't make knowingly false statements on factual issues. However, in all the examples I could find, courts have set the bar pretty high. If you are reporting your own experience and making a reasonable judgment about it, that's not defamation under the law.
> 
> That said, defending against a defamation suit will cost a few thousand just to get started, so some people might comply with takedown requests rather than go through the hassle. However, for those who wish to persist, remember that anti-SLAPP laws are your friend if you live in a state that has strong ones. It's also typically possible to get a defamation suit thrown out on summary judgment if the judge determines that there is insufficient evidence for the plaintiff to prevail at trial. However, you have to spend those initial thousands just to get there.


Thank you for this enlightening post!

Seems to confirm the idea that BB is flexing their company muscle and resources (at least they make it sound like they're big and powerful) and hoping nobody is legal savvy enough or has the resources to fight them back on it. That's just straight up bullying and harassment.

Because based on what you've posted, I don't think any of the reviews I had on my site, but one maybe, were anywhere close to being defamatory. Some reviewers said they paid the money, didn't get results, and BB didn't respond afterwards, and thus concluded BB was a scam. And from their perspective that was 100% truth. Regardless of what happened behind the scenes. Maybe BB screwed up an ad, maybe e-mails were lost in spam folders - could happen. But threatening to sue someone over that? Not a fan of that approach.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Bill's post is enlightening. This isn't the first time I've seen a company attack anyone who says anything negative about them, and it's nice hearing that we do have a protected right to factually relate our interactions with a company.

BooksButterfly has posted here for years, and this isn't the first 'scandal' that's come up. At one point they were getting flack because they individually messaged every author they could find offering guarantees of increased sales that seemed like they could only be accomplished through some very shady means.

I have no idea if they have the resources to backup these lawsuits, but it really says a lot about them that they are willing to go to these lengths to harass people. It isn't doing their reputation any favors.


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

If previous behaviour is any indication, there will be a long, rambling, defensive repudiation in five, four, three, two, one...


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## BillSmithBooksDotCom (Nov 4, 2012)

Mark Dawson said:


> If previous behaviour is any indication, there will be a long, rambling, defensive repudiation in five, four, three, two, one...


Exactly.

The angle will be that it is all Amazon's fault for deliberately manipulating results to make them look bad, too. (Not that I disagree with BB's perspective that Amazon manipulates results -- they do. Anybody paying attention knows this. But screaming at anyone who asks you to clarify is ... counterproductive.)


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2018)

*What I said at 4:20 am*
"Reviews, good and bad, fall under free speech."

*What Bill Hiatt said at 8:09 am*
". . . product reviews are protected speech under the First Amendment . . . "

So I repeat again:
Tell them to shove it.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

People have threatened to sue me in the past. I never take such threats seriously unless I hear from their lawyers in the form of a cease-and-desist or letter accompanied by an attached filing.

And frankly, some of the C&Ds didn't even register on my GAF meter.

A personal email from the disgruntled party threatening legal action?


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

Funny thing, this thread has now had more views and comments in less than a day, than my tiny website with it's tiny review section managed in over 2 years, lol. Talk about things backfiring for BB.


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## Trioxin 245 (Dec 29, 2017)

ArchangelEST said:


> Funny thing, this thread has now had more views and comments in less than a day, than my tiny website with it's tiny review section managed in over 2 years, lol. Talk about things backfiring for BB.


The Streisand effect is in full force.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

ArchangelEST said:


> Funny thing, this thread has now had more views and comments in less than a day, than my tiny website with it's tiny review section managed in over 2 years, lol. Talk about things backfiring for BB.


BB also stands for BookBub. Might be an idea to keep using the full name in case of any confusion (I know the thread title says it all - but ... )

I notice that there are also complaints on Facebook pages. Good luck with removing those.
Do you have Hello Peter in the US?


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> BB also stands for BookBub. Might be an idea to keep using the full name in case of any confusion (I know the thread title says it all - but ... )
> 
> I notice that there are also complaints on Facebook pages. Good luck with removing those.
> Do you have Hello Peter in the US?


Good point, I'll use the full name from here on out.

Hadn't heart of Hello Peter before but man that looks like a cool site. I'm not from NA myself, but I'm a big fan of such review sites. Literally every purchase I've made in the last 20 years have been based on hours and days of heavy research about the products/services, including reviews. I don't even go to the doctor without researching about them first.


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## Miranda Honfleur (Oct 12, 2015)

Personally I'm willing to work with a business that's had some bad reviews. It's hard to make every transaction perfect. But threatening lawsuits over the bad reviews? Maybe there's something more going on than a few bad experiences? I'm staying far, far away. Thank you, OP.


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## ilamont (Jul 14, 2012)

When threatened with legal action, don't go to an Internet forum to share details and ask for advice. Contact a lawyer with experience in online law and relevant statutes (varies by country, but in the U.S. Section 230 of the Communication Decency Act as well as Fair Use and relevant libel/defamation statutes would apply). Initial short consultations in the U.S. are often (but not always) free.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> Sorry for the confusion caused by my post. In retrospect, it was unclear and misleading.
> 
> I was indeed referring to the OP (ArchangelEST).


So why not modify your post? When I was reading through, I thought the same thing for a moment, and had to do a mental double-take to remember the BB guy is not "James."


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> Sorry for the confusion caused by my post. In retrospect, it was unclear and misleading.
> 
> I was indeed referring to the OP (ArchangelEST).


I, also, thought you were saying you'd dealt happily with Books Butterfly for years! I was pretty surprised 

But mostly I'm just commenting to follow along


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

David VanDyke said:


> So why not modify your post? When I was reading through, I thought the same thing for a moment, and had to do a mental double-take to remember the BB guy is not "James."


Good idea. I modified my original post.


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## ArchangelEST (Jan 19, 2015)

ilamont said:


> When threatened with legal action, don't go to an Internet forum to share details and ask for advice. Contact a lawyer with experience in online law and relevant statutes (varies by country, but in the U.S. Section 230 of the Communication Decency Act as well as Fair Use and relevant libel/defamation statutes would apply). Initial short consultations in the U.S. are often (but not always) free.


Oh I didn't make the post looking for advice. I couldn't care less about their legal threats. I simply wanted to share the absurdity of the situation where they're threatening and harassing me over a bunch or reviews I didn't even write. And then moving on to also threatening other people - authors.

Seeing as this is the biggest online writer/self-publishing forum I'm aware of and part of, it made sense for me to post here.


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## Gareth K Pengelly (Aug 25, 2012)

It does make sense, and any time any company tries to pull this nonsense, it makes sense to spread the word.

Dishonest and threatening business practices thrive on people being too scared to let people know, for fear of people condemning it as a witch hunt.

So thank you for telling us.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Bill Hiatt said:


> That said, defending against a defamation suit will cost a few thousand just to get started, so some people might comply with takedown requests rather than go through the hassle.


Not necessarily. You can represent yourself in any action (forget the fool for a client nonsense) and in many cases, as long as you do proper research, you can win. In the past four decades I have had occasion to represent myself in court on seventeen occasions. I won sixteen of them. The one I lost was to a woman scorned who wasn't exactly honest regarding her claims. I have no legal training, although with a mother who was a Magistrate, I had a degree of familiarity with law. I'd love these lawsuit happy buffoons to try to sue me. They haven't as yet, even though I gave them a review that accused them of either being naive or dishonest.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Yes, we are now going legally after sites that allow defamation and slander against us
Yes, we are also going after KBoards
We are hiring a full time defamation lawyer as our Legal Counsel. We're interviewing candidates as we speak

We support everyone's 1st amendment rights
We have absolutely no problem with people who write an actual review. Example: http://anniedouglasslima.blogspot.com/2015/05/my-books-butterfly-promotion.html
Even if their recommendation is - Books Butterfly did not work for me. I would not work with them again
That's perfectly fine

We do not support 'reviews' from people who've never worked with us
We do not support 'reviews' that are racism and racist attacks
We do not support 'reviews' that are defamation and slander

**************************************************************

1) We've only contacted two authors from the authors who reviewed on James' site

Here are responses from both 
_[Texts of emails have been redacted. - Becca]_

a) This author's book was locked in price by Amazon. We moved her $0.99 promotion to $2.99. Then we had to move dates. So even after losing two slots we are giving her a 3rd time slot in good faith as it's Amazon's fault and not author's fault. She was mostly upset that price was locked for 30 days and wrote a review then (at the point of maximum frustration). Later we cleared up things and she was happy to remove the negative review

b) This author was unhappy about communication (4 day delay) and was happy that we have improved communication with live chat and phone

********
Both authors responded happily
Absolutely no complaints

***
Since the 2nd author's complaint about communication we've added

Live Chat on website (bottom right corner)
Toll Free Number for US and Canada
Email team now responds within 3 hours to 3 days, instead of 1 to 5 days

****************

2) The OP, James, has shared our emails. Why doesn't he share the email of this supposed 'author' who complained to him?

James, please share the email

***********************

3) It's perfectly normal for us to contact a website where there is defamation and slander going on

Example 1: Andrew Branham on KBoards claimed that we're not a Canadian company and that we are (his words) 'a dirty Indian company'

Example 2: Some author (on Amazon Forums) claimed 'we must be a Pakistani or Indian company' because the person she talked to had an accent

You can still see that comment: Look for the comment by Magic Masterminds

Thread: https://www.kdpcommunity.com/s/question/0D5f400000FHNCCCA5/books-butterfly?language=en

If you want to talk conspiracy theory, then why is it that

As soon as we found out that the 'author' who started this thread has a personal blog domain owned by Amazon, the thread got locked and disappeared from Google (It used to be #1 Google result when people searched for 'books butterfly'

Very similar to how Amazon Warehouse workers suddenly have Twitter accounts and whenever anyone complains about Amazon working conditions they respond

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/2018/08/27/amazon-enlists-employees-counter-critics-twitter/37628289/

If you expect us to not address false claims of the nature of 'they must be a dirty indian company' then we can just agree to disagree

*************************

You want to talk more 'conspiracy theory' then why is it that

a) On Dec 7th, 2017 we shared that we had grown to 8 million readers

on Dec 8th, 2017 Google switched to showing only negative results in searches for 'books butterfly'

Instead of showing 6-7 sitelinks and our site for first 5 search results, Google switched to our site, then 5 negative results pulled from KBoards

Then for a few weeks it switched to showing this 'locked thread at Amazon Forums' as #1 result when people were searching for us

This one: https://www.kdpcommunity.com/s/question/0D5f400000FHNCCCA5/books-butterfly?language=en

Now, this post has disappeared from Page 1 and Page 2 of Google

************************

4) We will be contacting KBoards' owners, Vertical Scope about this thread as this has some baseless allegations

We have already contacted them about racism by Andrew Branham. That the 'dirty Indian Company' attack was merged into our official thread, that when we complained about it we were given a 1 day ban by KBoards admins

We have also contacted them about other examples of defamation from people that have never worked with us. Claims like

they must use bots
they are an organized scam etc

We are a 100% legitimate company. A set of authors on KBoards want to create a Catch-22 situation

1) If you don't respond - our lies must be true
2) If you respond - How rude. We called their company a dirty indian company and an organized scam. How dare they respond to that. Author is always right

If Vertical Scope don't fix these issues we will take them to court. They are a Canadian company and it's not like US. You can't just call someone's company a 'dirty indian company' because one person you talked to was a Canadian of Indian ethnicity. Anyways, our company has only 2 Indians out of 41 people. Majority are white and quite saddened to see this sort of overt racism

A few of James' claims are invalid and defamatory in nature. It adds to the trend of defamation and slander for 4 years against us by KBoards, including allowing racist attacks

A) Claim that we threatened authors

We contacted two authors and their responses are listed above

B) Claim by James that we've only sold 5,000 promotion packages - 5000 promo packages through-out their near decade old operation. 
The website very clearly states IN THE LAST 12 MONTHS i.e.

Screenshots showing our Low Dispute Rate in April to Dec 2017 (6 disputes from 3,182 promotion packages sold) and our Low Dispute Rate in Jan to June 2018 (5 disputes from 1,977 promotion packages sold)

It's April 2017 to June 2018. Not 10 years

********************

James, please share this email where you show where we are threatening authors. Yes, please share this email. So we can respond to your inaccurate claim

_Emails that seem to have been quoted without permission have been redacted. The customers who wrote those emails are free to share them here themselves, or to post a review of Books Butterfly here. - Becca_


----------



## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

ireaderreview said:


> Screenshots showing our Low Dispute Rate in April to Dec 2017 (6 disputes from 3,182 promotion packages sold) and our Low Dispute Rate in Jan to June 2018 (5 disputes from 1,977 promotion packages sold)


There are multiple people who have had poor to no results from using your service. You become defensive when questioned, refuse refunds, blame the person's book, and overflow inboxes with abusive pms. You only have a low dispute rate because most authors walk away rather than try to pursue a refund and suffer the barrage of abuse. The negative reputation of this service has certainly spread through multiple author forums. You can try and shut us up from getting a refund but you can't stop us telling our author friends about our horrible experiences with you.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

JamesH, this is classic defamation

We will sue you for this and for your other defamatory claims



> But you know what makes me personally sceptical about it? That they list having sold 5000 promo packages through-out their near decade old operation. Now, I'm a 1 man deal, and in the last 3 years, I've done about 1000 promotions. Through one, tiny, fairly crappy site with basically zero promotion (because I don't have the time nor energy to promote full time, so I keep it small on purpose). And with zero claims about how good I am. In fact I even tell people on my site to try out other services first, lol, because I can't predict if what I do will help them or not.
> 
> For a decade old company with apparently millions in revenue and a whole team working in multiple countries across the globe, I'd kinda expect them to have serviced tens of thousands. Then again, maybe it's just that their prices are too high for what they produce. Who knows.


The website clearly lists the dates. From Apr 2017 to June 2018. For you to somehow claim that it's sales over a decade and use that to attack us is textbook defamation

*******************

KBoards allowing this defamation just adds to their 4 year history of enabling defamation and racism against us

*****************

Also, I'm a Canadian.

********************

Tilly, email us and we'll sort out the issue. You're making a lot of wrong claims

Our dispute rate screenshots are listed on the website

only 12 disputes in last 5,127 book promotion packages sold

You are extrapolating from a few cases and trying to paint a wrong picture

We have never emailed anyone on KBoards abusive pms to their inbox, or anywhere else. Do you have these? Please show screenshots, else it's defamation to claim false things


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

ireaderreview said:


> JamesH, this is classic defamation
> 
> We will sue you for this and for your other defamatory claims


Wrong. You need to learn to differentiate between expressing an opinion and making a claim. Expressing an opinion is NOT defamation. For instance, everything I have read about you, sourced FROM your own company, causes me to form the opinion that you are a dodgy company that is best avoided. Now threaten me with a law suit - I WOULD LOVE TO MEET YOU IN COURT!


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

ireaderreview said:


> Yes, we are now going legally after sites that allow defamation and slander against us
> Yes, we are also going after KBoards
> We are hiring a full time defamation lawyer as our Legal Counsel. We're interviewing candidates as we speak





ireaderreview said:


> We will sue you for this and for your other defamatory claims


I know almost nothing about the community as a new writer, but more than anyone else's comments here your words put me off your service the most. 
The law allows this and it is your right, but it i don't think it win you customers seeing you sue people..


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Tilly, Responding to each item in your defamatory claims against us

There are multiple people who have had poor to no results from using your service

* We're upfront that 8% of authors whose books miss the target. No results - only 1% or 2%. Usually because book was free in the past

8% miss
Out of those a few (1% or 2%) get no or very low results

You become defensive when questioned, refuse refunds, blame the person's book, and overflow inboxes with abusive pms

* Defensive
If an author emails us saying - my book missed so you're a scam. We reply - we are not a scam. That's not 'defensive'
* Refuse Refunds
We never refuse refunds if terms are met. You can't say - Only count day 3 out of my 5 day promotion and don't count day 1, 2, 4, and 5 and expect us to say - Yeah, sure
In your earlier thread you have specified the exact nature - the agreement was for store credit. Terms of Service that were emailed to you. Your book missed and you refused to take store credit and insisted we do refund. We refused and said you have only store credit. You walked away and now for 2+ years have been making false claims (abusive pms, etc)

* We never comment on the book
We will only give feedback on cover needing to be better or genre needing to be different. We NEVER comment on author's writing
* overflow inboxes with abusive pms
This is the most egrerious part of your defamation. we do not send abusive emails to authors. If you consider 'you should get a clearer cover, and it should be more tuned to Fantasy, such as these authors' covers' as abusive that's just wrong.

* Summary
First you email us saying - why did book miss? Then we reply - these are the things that can be done to get better results
Then you say - it's abusive because it's asking me to get a better cover?

Then you refuse store credit, and claim we don't honor the refund

With all due respect, you're just making things up
******

You only have a low dispute rate because most authors walk away rather than try to pursue a refund and suffer the barrage of abuse

* WE never abuse authors. You're just making things up and doing defamation against us
* It's very easy to dispute. Most bank accounts and credit cards now have 'Dispute' button right next to the charge.

12 disputes in last 5,127 book promotion packages

Here: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/images/LowDisputeRate_2017.png
Low Dispute Rate in April to Dec 2017 (6 disputes from 3,182 promotion packages sold)

HEre: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/images/LowDisputeRate5.png
and our Low Dispute Rate in Jan to June 2018 (5 disputes from 1,977 promotion packages sold)

If authors actually were unhappy they would dispute. Less than 1 in 300 authors disputes

The negative reputation of this service has certainly spread through multiple author forums. You can try and shut us up from getting a refund but you can't stop us telling our author friends about our horrible experiences with you

* a small set of authors are trying to create this false impression that our site doesn't work
* we always honor the guarantee. It's prorated refund in store credit

Yes, if you have had a bad experience then by all means share your bad experience with your friends

However, you cannot make things up and do defamation and make false claims


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Sally, thank you for your feedback

We will take it into consideration



> Just my opinion, but I think you're time/resources would be better spent on identifying the core reasons you feel the need to hire a full-time defamation lawyer, and addressing that. I've worked for some large corporations - not one had a full-time defamation lawyer...
> 
> I've never used your service, but I don't believe there's any author conspiracy going on. Your customers are giving feedback.Why not take it in, identify where it points to opportunities for improvement, and take action?
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

DarkScribe

You write: I WOULD LOVE TO MEET YOU IN COURT!

Actually, you can offer your services to KBoards and to JamesH. Perhaps probono

We can see in court what constitutes 'expressing an opinion' and what constitutes 'defamation'


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

The best way to get business from writers is for those writers who were featured to tell their friends that their books sold from a promotion. Even a moderate number of sales is OK. We're easily pleased.

I repeat: a good business is characterised not by what it says to deliver, but by how it reacts when, inevitably, something goes wrong. When a customer is unhappy, when a bad review is posted, when a promo didn't run. A good business is one that proves through *actions* that it deserves to be a good business and it deserves its clientele. Selling books is a game of chance and most people know that.

Take Bargain Booksy, a site that at best gives middling results. Yet, they continue to be recommended, because they're professional, transparent and set out their MO clearly for all to see.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

Patty Jansen said:


> The best way to get business from writers is for those writers who were featured to tell their friends that their books sold from a promotion. Even a moderate number of sales is OK. We're easily pleased.
> 
> I repeat: a good business is characterised not by what it says to deliver, but by how it reacts when, inevitably, something goes wrong. When a customer is unhappy, when a bad review is posted, when a promo didn't run. A good business is one that proves through *actions* that it deserves to be a good business and it deserves its clientele. Selling books is a game of chance and most people know that.
> 
> Take Bargain Booksy, a site that at best gives middling results. Yet, they continue to be recommended, because they're professional, transparent and set out their MO clearly for all to see.


This


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

ireaderreview said:


> Yes, we are now going legally after sites that allow defamation and slander against us
> Yes, we are also going after KBoards
> We are hiring a full time defamation lawyer as our Legal Counsel. We're interviewing candidates as we speak


You lost me right there.



ireaderreview said:


> JamesH, this is classic defamation
> 
> We will sue you for this and for your other defamatory claims


Seriously? It looked like an opinion to me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

In a couple of lines of response, you convinced me to never have anything to do with your service.



Patty Jansen said:


> I repeat: a good business is characterised not by what it says to deliver, but by how it reacts when, inevitably, something goes wrong. When a customer is unhappy, when a bad review is posted, when a promo didn't run. A good business is one that proves through *actions* that it deserves to be a good business and it deserves its clientele.


This.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

ireaderreview said:


> DarkScribe
> 
> You write: I WOULD LOVE TO MEET YOU IN COURT!
> 
> ...


I you have legal representation who suggest that you can win a defamation action based on a negative opinion being expressed, then I suggest you find better lawyers. You will need them.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Patty

thanks for the feedback

1) Majority of our business is from word of mouth. In fact, in January this year we cut our Adwords budget from $270 USD a day to $70 a day. Because of word of mouth and repeat customers

2) 66% of our customers become repeat customers. Combination of 'Revealing we have 8 million readers' and 'reducing our Adwords budget' means that now Google is doing everything it can to 'lure us back'

- organic search. Moved us from Page 1 to Page 3 for searches like 'paid book promotion' etc

- shows 6 to 8 negative results on Page 1 of searches for books butterfly. Used to be just 1 or 2. Take a look. Search for Books butterfly. It's desperately finding every negative thread it can from 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 to try and create a bad impression

- adwords sending junk traffic

It's because of word of mouth and repeat customers that we're still doing fine

******************************

*************************

It's very simple. KBoards authors think 'service providers have to prove themselves and should take whatever abuse is hurled at them'

Just the way that authors shouldn't take abuse from service providers, service providers shouldn't take abuse from authors

You can't say one set of entrepreneurs (authors) get to abuse everyone they work with, and the other set of entrepreneurs (service providers) have to be picture perfect

*************************************

We are completely OK with anyone who writes THE TRUTH. However making up stuff and trying to use that to damage our reputation and our revenues is legally defamation and criminal conspiracy if it's multiple authors syncing it

******
Seriously, do a search on Google - 5 negative results from KBoards are shown. Not shown earlier - only after they found out we added 3.5 million readers in 2017. And all the attacks are coordinated with one other company

So you see the strange juxtaposition

- We are getting attacked only for ONE REASON

We help 50 to 100 sponsors each day (promotion packages are multi day, so I'm not saying 50 to 100 packages a day)
We help an additional 200 to 300 curated pick authors each day

We connect 8 million+ readers with 250 to 400 indie authors each day

That's literally the ONLY reason very big companies are after us

At the same time

- A small set of authors are attacking us and using completely made-up arguments because the real argument is too painful (my book didn't do well - perhaps I need to polish it more)


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

DarkScribe, you write: I you have legal representation who suggest that you can win a defamation action based on a negative opinion being expressed, then I suggest you find better lawyers. You will need them.

****
Thank you for the feedback. I guess we'll find out when we see who wins the case. Again, I'd urge you to put your money where your mouth is and represent VerticalScope/KBoards and James H. You seem supremely confident and it seems their best chance is for you to represent them

Vertical Scope contact - https://www.verticalscope.com/contact-us/connect-with-us.html


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

ArchangelEST said:


> I'm planning to move to Japan soon. They're a country full of people who's life motto is to stay out of everyone elses business. It's a country where if a train is 1 minute late, the conductors come out and apologize and bow. A country where you're not even allowed to use the phone on the train nor eat/drink while walking because you might bother other people. A country where you don't even have bins on the street because nobody is littering.
> 
> I want to move there so bad, lol. To get away from the drama of the western world.


As someone who has lived in Japan for almost a decade, let me be the first to say that it is an awesome place, but people definitely do not stay out of everyone else's business. Being a foreigner, you will get asked the most personal questions you have ever been asked in your life. And train conductors often will not come out and apologize if a train is late. Mostly public transportation runs on time, but even if it's late, you probably won't get an apology from the conductor. Just the other day I was waiting for the train and it was five minutes late. No apologies were offered. There's also plenty of drama to go around.

Not to say that doesn't happen on occasion or that it's not a great place, but just keep your expectations in check.

And as for Books Butterfly (BBF so there's no BookBub confusion), they clearly haven't done any research into libel laws. You can't sue someone for posting a review of your service. If some shyster told you that, then they're bilking you for money. And to be honest, I hope they drown you in legal fees and suck you out of every cent you have.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

It's not the say-so that makes the difference, or the ad budget, or the stated size of the list. It is what actually happens when a writer books a promo.

I run a small list from my author mailing list platform as well as a monthly promotion. I'm well aware of the crap that writers fling at people who run lists, even if, as my case, no one needs to pay to take part.

As a service provider, yes, you have to swallow the BS. You have to swallow that there are people who will NEVER, ever get pretty much ANYTHING right in a submission form, people who will submit a genre you don't cover and then abuse you for it. People who will submit books you don't want to run in a million years and then abuse you from multiple email accounts so badly that you have to go into your mailing list server and block all email addresses from a 5km radius (if you are at or associated with the University of Illinois, don't try to sign up LOL, although it's been a while now, I can probably lift the block). 

I do all this for FREE. I can only imagine the BS you get when you charge lots, like Bookbub.

And yes, you have to swallow it. ALL of it. Because it's the only way to stay classy. 

And how to improve reputation? It only happens when *other* people recommend a service. The KB is not the only selfpublishing forum, but when results from a promo are good or people have a good experience, that will filter through and people will report it. I remember when the first reports about Bookbub came out and everyone was going "this has to be a scam, it's too good" and through repeatedly delivering, Bookbub has proven itself NOT to be a scam. Delivering, not arguing. Bookbub rarely gives interviews and although I'm sure they're members here, they don't come here to defend any negative posts about them (like, a recent thread about how expensive they are).


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

You write: And as for Books Butterfly (BBF so there's no BookBub confusion), they clearly haven't done any research into libel laws. You can't sue someone for posting a review of your service. If some shyster told you that, then they're bilking you for money. And to be honest, I hope they drown you in legal fees and suck you out of every cent you have.

We have zero problem with an actual customer writing an actual review

********

We are suing for things like

- calling us a dirty indian company
- someone who has never worked with us and has no knowledge of our business and doesn't even read the website saying - they are a scam, they use bots

**************

thank you for your concern. We're hiring a legal counsel who is an expert in defamation. She'lll be working for the company in a regular position. So it's an annual salary and unfortunately your hopes of her 'draining us of every cent' aren't going to come true


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

1) I think we can agree to disagree



> As a service provider, yes, you have to swallow the BS. You have to swallow that there are people who will NEVER, ever get pretty much ANYTHING right in a submission form, people who will submit a genre you don't cover and then abuse you for it. People who will submit books you don't want to run in a million years and then abuse you from multiple email accounts so badly that you have to go into your mailing list server and block all email addresses from a 5km radius (if you are at or associated with the University of Illinois, don't try to sign up LOL, although it's been a while now, I can probably lift the block).
> 
> I do all this for FREE. I can only imagine the BS you get when you charge lots, like Bookbub.
> 
> And yes, you have to swallow it. ALL of it. Because it's the only way to stay classy.


97% to 98% of authors are great to work with
We are under no obligation to take abuse from the other 2% to 3%

We are also under no obligation to stay classy

It's a catch 22 situation

If you don't respond, they'll say the claims are true
If you respond - then someone says it's not classy, or it's not the way Regency England would have done it

*************

In all this you are assuming we are not delivering

I've already posted links to our dispute rate and I'll post them again

2017 Disputes - https://www.booksbutterfly.com/images/LowDisputeRate_2017.png
Screenshots showing our Low Dispute Rate in April to Dec 2017 (6 disputes from 3,182 promotion packages sold)

2018 Disputes - https://www.booksbutterfly.com/images/LowDisputeRate5.png
our Low Dispute Rate in Jan to June 2018 (5 disputes from 1,977 promotion packages sold)

If only 1 out of every 300 authors who work with us need to file a dispute
If 66% of authors who work with us become repeat customers

then we are definitely delivering

We are posting ACTUAL PROOF. While a handful of KBoards authors (most of whom have NEVER worked with us) are making up lies and making false claims

*****************

We are completely OK if some authors write negative reviews

However, we will under no circumstances stand for people making up lies and claiming wrong things. Even more so if it's people who have never used our services. There's a lot of 'you can't sue people for reviews' being thrown around. If they have never bought anything from us, and are not doing a review, and only making defamatory claims, then it's defamation

Also, you really need to read up more on it

Even in a review you can't make up false claims


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

ireaderreview said:


> It's because of word of mouth and repeat customers that we're still doing fine


Will be curious to see how that continues to work out because the betting man in me is thinking you're not winning a lot of new fans with the last page or so of this thread.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Rick,
KBoards authors think they are the only authors on the planet and they determine the fate of the world

Fortunately, you're not. If you were so all powerful you wouldn't be at the mercy of one ebook store

Perhaps instead of going after people who simply connect readers with indie authors, you should focus all your 'special power' and 'huge numbers' on doing something that actually benefits authors, like coming up with a coop store and removing the middleman, or spreading market share in books between multiple stores and not have one monopoly lording over you

*****************************

Since 2014 authors on KBoards have been doing defamation against us - https://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=194577.0

Claiming we are a scam

So there is a continuous trend of increasing and more hostile defamation and slander
And now with racism thrown in (Andrew Branham calling us a dirty indian company) etc. etc.

WE'll see what Vertical Scope have to say. When we're in court in discovery phase a lot of things will come up.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I can play that game.

As far as I know, the vast majority of threads here have been started because someone had a complaint. Some had good experiences, but that seems to be quite long way back.

These threads all contain reports from people who have used the service.

https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,264927.0.html
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,208702.0.html
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,263002.0.html
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,249403.0.html
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,249982.0.html
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,252405.0.html
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,247286.0.html
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,241279.0.html


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

ireaderreview said:


> Since 2014 authors on KBoards have been doing defamation against us - https://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=194577.0
> 
> Claiming we are a scam


There is nothing defamatory in that thread. Just concern which seems to come from a lack of clarity on your own website. Once you address the issue in the thread, it becomes positive towards you.

Guaranteeing downloads is against Amazon TOS, and any site implying this will get warnings raised. More so now, than back in 2014. Giving a money back guarantee if your downloads fall below a certain expectation is a completely different thing. Bad wording on your site can make something which is good practice seem like a scam. But the bad wording is at your end, and any consequences of you using bad or misleading wording, are your own. I'm not saying it was in this instance, but people misunderstood it, and you apparently corrected it. This is how the process should work.

All new services need to be put under the microscope. If the site is badly worded, you cant blame people for misinterpreting and raising issues.

Amazon nuke anyone who gets it wrong, and unless new services are looked at, the unwitting end up getting nuked by Amazon.

Sure, some things get said, but suing people will never achieve what you want. The very action puts a huge black mark against you, and could have the opposite effect of killing your business through your own negative actions. Once it becomes common knowledge you sue people at the drop of a hat, no-one will use your service.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

ireaderreview said:


> Since 2014 authors on KBoards have been doing defamation against us - https://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=194577.0
> 
> Claiming we are a scam
> 
> ...


KBoards has not been "doing" defamation against you (which isn't a thing, FYI, the verb of defamation is "to defame"). KBoards is an open forum, they do not endorse any posts users make. Claiming KBoards is liable is absolutely ridiculous and any lawyer worth their salt (which clearly doesn't include whatever ambulance-chaser you hired) will tell you that this is a waste of time and money.

But you do you. Enjoy getting spanked in court.


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## Aaronhodges (Dec 19, 2015)

Just dropping by to let you know the behaviour of books butterfly in this thread has ensured I'll never be using their service, nor recommend them to any of my author friends.


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## CopperDog (Sep 17, 2014)

Wow, BBF's total lack of professionalism in responding to this matter has now caused me to strike them from my promotions list. Forever. 
"


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

thank you for collating that
We can play that game right back

I'll point out a few cases of what is defamation in these threads and what reviews are fine

1) This thread: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,264927.0.html

Straight out defamation

Author is brand new author, never worked with us, and making completely false misleading claims i.e.

a) I know lots of readers and writers and I have yet to find one that actually subscribes. Do any of you?

b) I have heard nothing but bad things about BB. They have to be fudging quite a lot about how many readers they have - no way in the millions.

When the IP and identity of that author is revealed you'll be in for a treat as we also had hacking attacks on that day and it's 99% a tech company and not an author

We have screenshots of proof of number of email subscribers and apps etc

**************************

2) This: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,208702.0.html

This is the infamous Andrew Branham racist attack

Andrew Branham ccalls us a 'dirty indian company'
Ann in Arlington merges that into our OFFICIAL THREAD which is supposed to be only for official results
For 1 to 3 months there is damage to our reputation as people are wondering whether it's true and whether we're not a Canadian Company as our About Us page says and that we're instead some Indian company
It's also straight out racist to equate an entire country as 'dirty'
When we complain we get a one day ban.

We have posted actual PROOF - super low dispute rate
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,208702.msg3599403.html#msg3599403

Everyone else in that thread is trying to go into tangets like - their order site for authors , does not have sign up links for readers
Answer: No it doesn't because it's for authors. The How It Works page lists sites for readers and they have sign up links

***********************************************

3) This author has massively mis-represented what happened, and KBoards didn't let me respond to it properly -> https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,249403.0.html

What actually happened - he emailed, asked for refund, we said there is store credit, he said he had talked about cash refund before promotion, we found the email, then we did cash refund
It took 30 minutes

In between he started Kindle Boards thread
Then 14 minutes later he is falsely claiming - they only did refund because I started KBoards thread

So he thinks that without him telling us, we magically somehow sensed he had done a KBoards thread, and because of that got scared

No, as soon as he clarified that he had discussed beforehand for cash refund, we did cash refund. We only found out about thread TWO WEEKS LATER. You can see our first response is two weeks later

He's in UK and libel laws in UK are very well defined. So this case (when we get to it)( should be open and shut. He'll have to remove his false claim that we only did refund after he did a post on KBoards, until and unless he can prove that in 14 minutes gap we somehow found his forum thread. Also KBoards has logs. We only found out about thread TWO WEEKS LATER and responded. However, KBoards did not let us respond with above details. Admin edited out part

***************

4) This thread: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,249982.0.html

YEs, book didn't do well. we refunded the money

What is not right is

Author started this thread 2 days in, without waiting for full promotion
Author has only shared results from Kindle Store and not shared Apple, Kobo, iBooks. He's used a misleading phrase 'I may have gotten a few downloads on iTunes as well, but it's hard to tell through the Smashwords control panel

Book does not qualify for guarantee as it was previously run with Bookbub and we don't guarantee those. Author was aware of that

Instead of contacting us, taking store credit, and running some other book, author started a forum thread. That's a bit unusual

******************

5) This: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,252405.0.html

Yes, it's a communication failure on our part

Our Mistake: We didn't respond same day/next day to author emails

Author's wrong assumptions: Invoice said June 13th start date. Invoice did not have a date. Author hadn't paid upfront so we sent an invoice and that had no date
Lots of other assumptions like not telling us she wanted it only for 3 days etc.

However, we did refund as it was our mistake

**********************

6) This thread: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,247286.0.html

This is a classic case of KBoards interference

they edited out everything I had written - https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,247286.msg3457538.html#msg3457538

We handled this issue with the author. There was a new team transition at that time and somehow her email got missed

*************************

7) This thread is a classic case of defamation

Started thread here: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,241279.0.html
STarted thread here: https://www.kdpcommunity.com/s/question/0D5f400000FHNCCCA5/books-butterfly?language=en

False Claims
1) That we promised her 200 sales for her $2.99 novella

She bought a package with no guarantee and sales range of 0 to 100 sales

2) That she did a dispute and got her money back. There is no dispute on the charge

3) That 'we were fine with her, but she's heard that we are misogynistic to women'

* Not at all. We are more women than men, in fact. Highly unusual for a tech company
* Someone tries different attack vectors. Favorites are

to try and paint us as an Indian or Pakistani company (you can see that attack vector on this same thread)
to try and claim we are misogynstic to women
to try and claim we don't honor the guarantee (because it's a huge strength)
to try and claim that we don't have any sign up links for readers (because www.booksbutterfly.com is a site for authors to buy promotion packages, and not for readers, it's a lazy target to claim - no sign up links for readers)

The mistake they do is that they always do other things like hacking attacks on the EXACT SAME DAYS, and with our server we track that. They also do click fraud on the exact same days

So somewhere between 25% and 50% of anonymous posts are actually a large tech company

4) Why is this 'author's' domain owned by Amazon?
Why did Google start showing this as #1 search result when people were searching for 'Books Butterfly'. Right after we reveal 8 million readers suddenly search engine finds a thread by this author and starts showing it as #1. Amazing coincidence

Why has it now disappeared from Google. From #1 search result to nowhere

Why has thread been locked?

So this supposed 'author' starts one thread on Kboards and one on Amazon KDP Forums
Claims we are misogynistic to women, that promised her 200 sales, that she did credit card dispute, etc.

which are all false
***********************************

Sometimes it's a communication issue - like Ben Lovejoy who had to email us multiple times in a 30 minute period to clarify that he had talked before the promotion about cash refund if book missed. So instead of in first email it took a few emails and 30 minutes to get refund

Does that justify writing a post that says 'Heads Up about Books Butterfly'
they don't honor the guarantee
they only honored it after they saw my blog post (somehow magically in FOURTEEN minutes) we found out

It's straight up defamation and slander to claim we don't honor the guarantee

*******************************

Also, thank you to the authors who don't work with us and are now posting - I'll never work with you
Best of luck with your books, sincerely

It's some sort of joke when you never worked with us and were never going to work with us to claim now you're not going to work with us. we still wish you all the best


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I didn't quote those posts to prove or disprove my point, only the disprove that everyone who has said bad things never had anything to do with you.

I trust that people can read those threads and can make up their own minds. I'm not going to tell them what to think.


----------



## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Yes, and those posts are great examples of authors who are upset sometimes taking liberties with the truth, some more than others

This is what we posted on Feb 2017 in a KBoards Thread



> 6) Guess what
> 
> there were authors at KBoards slagging us even before we started selling book promotion slots
> 
> ...


This is what we feel now



> 6) There were authors at KBoards slagging us even before we started selling book promotion slots
> Since 2014 there have been lots of attacks
> In Dec 2016 this escalated to racist Attacks
> That continued in early 2017 - getting banned for complaining about author calling us a 'dirty indian company' which is inaccurate and straight up racist
> ...


Vertical Scope will either fix this issue once and for all, or we will see them in court


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## Aaronhodges (Dec 19, 2015)

I have actually had a promo with book butterfly before. However it ran on the same day as a freebooksy. The book recieved the same or very similar amount to a regular free booksy. Considering I've had proven results for freebooksy on other books before I considered the books butterfly promo not worth the $80 and therefore removed it from my line up. 
Of course because of the freebooksy downloads there was no way of claiming under your refund policy, which considering how often authors stack promos I'm betting happens alot. 
Your behaviour here has only served to confirm my suspicions.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

ireaderreview said:


> Vertical Scope will either fix this issue once and for all, or we will see them in court


I'm looking forward to the judge laughing in your face.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Aaron Hodges

Why not contact us with screenshots. All our promotions are multiple day. So it's very clear to see results
We don't have any single day promotions

We're happy to confirm dates for you and then you can share download figures here so everyone can make up their minds about what results were (good or bad). Currently you are using a misdirection of 'same day as Freebooksy' which does not apply because all our promotions are multiple day and there would be days before or after Freebooksy which clearly show whether promotion worked or not

If there is doubt we are happy to run it again for remaining store credit

***
Also - assumption 'I'm betting happens a lot'

Majority of our author clients promote only with us

We have - $0 books, $0.99 books, paperbacks, over $1, box sets

There is very little stacking as compared to the typical KBoards author who is stackign 10 to 20 promo sites

Also, you just proved my point

You write: therefore removed it from my line up.

So we were not on your 'promotion lineup'

And earlier you had claimed: after reading this thread i will never work with Books Butterfly

So, your decision before reading this thread - never working with Books Butterfly
After reading this thread - exactly the same


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

JRtomlin

1) People who have never worked with us and are doing defamation against us, are not 'our customers'

2) thank you for the advice on how to build one's business with authors. Please feel free to message me any other advice you have. Yes, being unpleasanat and unprofessional is not ideal, however, it's necessary in some cases

3) Thank you for the feedback on the website appearance. It converts really well so it's a Catch 22 situation. Go for a prettier site and lose some sales. We prefer going with what works

You would not believe how difficult it was to get a layout/design that converts well for all of

Free books
$0.99 books
Box sets
paperbacks
over $1 books

Imagine if your author page had 5/6 different genres of books, each with different price points, and you have to figure out a design where each of the books sell, not just one genre. It's something akin to that

If we could show the conversion rate increase after the changes no one would think about design or prettiness. It converts super well


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I have run TWO Books Butterfly promos in 2015 and 2016 (I think?)

I have not found it necessary to complain about either of them. I used both in a line-up and got some downloads. As I said many sites don't give you amazing results and that comes with the territory. It's really hard to sell a lot of other people's books.

I've never been tempted to ask a refund for promos that ran as booked, because frankly, I think the minimum sales or refund policy sets a bad precedent that will entice too many people to behave as entitled dicks. The author pays to be featured, not for any number of sales.

This is my history with the company.

But I wouldn't recommend them to a new author SOLELY based on the behaviour in this and other threads (like those quoted).

I feel like screaming: PLEASE by all that's dear, put a sock in it.

You're damaging your business in more ways than one. Not everything written about you has to be responded to. In many cases, the best response is not to respond, but simply act in a courteous way, and resolve things privately not tell the customer in a public forum how wrong they are. EVEN IF THEY'RE WRONG.

I'm pretty sure I've said this before.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Patty

we can agree to disagree
Why do you even care?

Some angry website owner started this post and made false claims. Now we're supposed to be courteous to him

I think we can just agree to disagree


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I care because lots of people ask me where to promote their books.

Get this: I used to be a customer and would have used you again. Your behaviour here has turned me into advising against the company.

I'm not seeing anywhere to disagree. It's a fact.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

I'm dropping the link to this thread in as many author forums as I can find and circulating it to all my author friends so they know to stay a million miles away from this "business".


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Well, I had an incredibly bad experience with this guy, and I haven't shared it before because I've been busy and haven't wanted to deal with it. Because there are claims here that no one actually has legitimate bad experiences with this service provider, I'll go ahead and detail part of mine.

After making a post on KB that detailed empirical downloads and cost per click for several services, one of which included my own empirical downloads experience with Books Butterfly amongst a dozen or so others, I was accused of lying and being part of some conspiracy to defame this company by the owner through many, many emails. I was just sharing my results for various indie services and indicated things like "YMMV" and that I had no idea if this would be true for other people. I tried to "do right" by this person (because I legitimately appreciate service providers who help indie authors). I spent inordinate amounts of my time rescheduling with him, providing him with screenshots of my accounts and isolating any future ad attempts with him to prove that I was not intentionally defaming him and that my experience with his service was actually as poor, empirically, as I noted in my post. I tolerated his conspiracy theories, his insults, and his poor professional demeanor. Follow up attempts with his service to add on to the numbers (as demanded by the owner) were just not effective, much worse than any other service provider I can think of that I've used for newsletter pushes, ads, etc., but he insisted that if I wanted a prorated refund, then I had to continue to work with him. When I told him that I really didn't care for a refund, I just didn't want to hear from him again, he continued to demand that I remove my "lies" about his company and make changes to my posts. He persisted in insulting my integrity and questioning my motives. I updated the post with the small additions of downloads from follow on attempts to try to appease him. By the end of my interaction with the owner, I had edited my post to remove the Books Butterfly information because I didn't have time to deal with someone who kept sending me emails threatening me with lawsuits and insulting my character and integrity while I was in the middle of a major ad push for a new series and had no time to deal with his nonsense. He gave me a prorated refund, again despite the fact that I told him I didn't want one and just wished for him to leave me alone, and he then demanded that I make some additional note on my post about something he felt would make his service look better than it actually was. I told him he had put enough words into my mouth, and I haven't talked to him since.

In this thread, I've realized the error of my ways in not properly responding and publicly noting my problems with this service provider. So, let me go ahead and clear this up and make sure I'm as precise as possible.

I would never recommend this service to any author, ever. I would especially not recommend this service to any author who suffers from anxiety. Your interactions with this person are highly likely to be unprofessional to an absolutely remarkable degree, and if you do not "earn out" with his service, he will insinuate that it must be your book because he has so much success with 90%+ of his customers, which I do not believe for a minute. I believe most people just don't want to deal with him, are probably using BBF in stacked services, and may not even be aware of the poor return seen with his service. If you ever share your negative experience in a public place, expect threats of litigation and insults to your character and integrity. I spend thousands of dollars each release on indie services, even on advertising in services that I know will not pay out individually but are part of a stacked ad strategy. I would never recommend that Books Butterfly ever be a part of your stacked ads. I will never, ever, ever do this again. Not on my main author account. Not on any current or future pseudonyms. From my experience, the CTC and downloads per dollar are extremely poor, and the time you'll waste communicating with this person is worth even more of your dollars (because you're not writing or doing something more productive with your time).

From my experience, the services don't appear to deliver what is advertised (especially not within a first shot of the booked ad, when you actually need it for stacked ads), and I legitimately tried to make it work, following everything he demanded of me, despite a busy schedule. And for the downloads the service does provide, they are spread over such a large range of time that it will make no useful impact in the Free list on Amazon. I don't believe anyone can use this service to get what is promised in the ads such as "Top 100 Free" or "Top 200 Free". Not only did I not get the downloads that were advertised or expected with the service, I also experienced no noticeable sell-through like I get with other services like FB, BB ads, or AMS. I've yet to find an author who can actually trace many downloads (e.g., 1k) they got from any BBF service, and the owner claims they don't have their own CPC numbers and can't tell you how many clicks they had for your book in whatever they're doing (at least, they couldn't this year when I last tried to work with them). Apparently, they've groomed an 8M+ list with no actionable way to track clicks and downloads. According to them, it is YOUR responsibility to isolate the supposed traffic that came from their legitimate readers to your books, and the only way to do this is to NOT stack ads with other services (which is a bad idea if you want to get sticky). This doesn't seem like a legit service with 8M real readers. In my experience, it doesn't perform like it either. YMMV but probably won't. Use at your own risk. Very low results. Even worse behavior.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Tilly said:


> I'm dropping the link to this thread in as many author forums as I can find and circulating it to all my author friends so they know to stay a million miles away from this "business".


I'm doing the same. Tweeted out the link to this thread and warned authors not to use BBF. I've seen some other authors do the same. I've always been suspicious of BBF due to this rep's belligerent posts on this forum, but never felt the need to actively not recommend them. This time they've gone beyond the pale.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Rex, with all due respect, what you did was straight up inaccurate

1) You didn't mention that if the book misses the author gets prorated refund in store credit

2) You only included results for Kindle and did not include results for Nook, Apple, Kobo. That's straight up mis-representation

3) When requested to do the change, you added in a very passive-aggressive and misleading statement. Instead of just saying 

There is prorated refund in store credit. So if you buy $100 for 1,200 free book downloads, you can just rerun to get to 1,200 free book downloads

You wrote - Books Butterfly asked me to remove results

******************

Yes, please do share with as many author forums as you can. We'll be very glad to not have to work with authors with bad intentions, and authors who think someone sharing results from one store and leaving out 3 stores, is justified in making it seem it's our fault for his misrepresentation


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

"We're hiring a legal counsel who is an expert in defamation. She'lll be working for the company in a regular position."

Yeah? *Then post her name and State Bar Number. *

Nobody hold your breath.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

loraininflorida said:


> "We're hiring a legal counsel who is an expert in defamation. She'lll be working for the company in a regular position."
> 
> Yeah? *Then post her name and State Bar Number. *
> 
> Nobody hold your breath.


You can't have a state bar number if you're imaginary. Silly Lorain.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

ireaderreview said:


> 1) You didn't mention that if the book misses the author gets prorated refund in store credit


No they don't. There are numerous reports of authors who walked away rather than pursue the alleged refund/store credit.

When I had ZERO downloads attributable to your service (I ran it in isolation as a test) I was told my book was to blame and that the cover was awful and the blurb terrible. Yet when Bookbub ran the same title, it resulted in over 60,000 downloads. I also received a torrent of abusive emails so bad I eventually had to block you and walk away. Also store credit is meaningless when 1/ an author doesn't want to ever work with you again because of the abuse and 2/ your list of 8 million readers is so disengaged a book doesn't garner a single download.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Additionally, you are straight up making a lot of wrong claims

Here are some clarifications

1) 92% of books promoted at $0.99 and free hit the target the FIRST TIME the book is run. Only 8% miss

2) Sell through is same as the other big promotion sites. There are numerous authors who have written this, including at KBoards

3) Your claim that you doubt anyone reaches figures for Top 100 Push and Top 200 Push are wholly inaccurate. Just because your book which is permanent free, and which you only shared results for one store, missed does not mean other books can't get good results. 92% of books hit the target. This includes big packages like Top 100 Push and small packages like Silver Eagle. Books that miss (8%) usually miss because of genre being wrong or earlier run with Bookbub and spent weeks in Top 100 and/or already run by us as no-charge curated picks

**********
It's unfortunate your book missed. It's also unfortunate you mis-represented our results and left out the part of the store credit if book missed
and it's unfortunate that now you are making a lot of generalizations

Your book missed and that's unfortunate. However, 92% of books promoted at $0.99 and $0 hit the target

Yes, we were rude to you because you repeatedly mis-represented the cost of our service and straight up refused to share the truth. It's understandable if you forgot to include results from Apple, Nook, Kobo the first time. Why would you not include them when making changes?

*************************


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Hi Tilly

for the last 2 or 3 years you've been writing this everywhere

How about we resolve this better

Please send us a screenshot of downloads in Kindle, Nook, Apple Kobo for the days we ran your book. each promotion is multiple days
And your email etc. 

And we'll do prorated refund in cash. 

***********

Just because a book misses once doesn't mean it'll miss again

I'd be happy if you could be happy and not have to be upset about us only offering store credit. Frankly a lot of the time it's about what type of email we get

Author 1: I missed, can we run again, or get cash refund

We are: Sure let's run

Author 2: You're a scam. My book missed. Give me refund or I'll spend the next 3 years slagging you off at KBoards

We are: There is only store credit

*******************
If you will be at peace and stop feeling you have to keep wasting your time posting about how one book didn't do well 3 years ago and how you didn't want to take store credit, just email us screenshots/proof of zero downloads, or however many there were

If for the day we ran figure it zero we'll do full refund
If it's over zero but less than the guarantee figure we'll do prorated refund in cash

***********************

If other authors want to break the terms, this is the way to do it - Just write lies about us for 3 years at kBoards and eventually we'll switch from store credit to prorated refund in cash


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Mr. Constantine you write: never felt the need to actively not recommend them. This time they've gone beyond the pale.

well, you pop up on almost every Books Butterfly thread and make snarky comments and wrong claims about our service. Now you're claiming this is the 'first time' you've felt the need to actively not recommend them

***********
that's a bit disingenuous don't you think


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Also, tilly, with all due respect, this is complete and utter nonsense - I also received a torrent of abusive emails so bad I eventually had to block you and walk away

You emailed us asking why book missed, and we gave you feedback on the cover. That's it

You keep making this false claim of 'abusive' emails. Even Admin Ann in other thread specified - giving feedback on why book might have missed, is not abuse

****************
please share these emails or messages. We have never abused you in any way, shape or form. Please don't misuse 'abuse'. It's a very serious thing when there's actual abuse and to trivialize it by claiming 'book cover needs to be more polished' is 'abuse' is not right

****************

Just us email us screenshots as proof of zero downloads and we'll do prorated refund in cash.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

ireaderreview said:


> Rex, with all due respect, what you did was straight up inaccurate
> 
> 1) You didn't mention that if the book misses the author gets prorated refund in store credit


When I wrote the post, it was months after the promo, and I had not received a prorated refund. As with all other services, I paid for the service, and I noted the results from the period of performance. For how authors actually promote books, e.g., stacked ads to push themselves up the Free List, in this case, the performance was as indicated and for what the list was meant for (understanding the impact of dollars to downloads in stated advertisement time), the list was as accurate as possible with the type of book, genre, cover, etc. (Lucifer's Odyssey, which has been in the top 200 multiple times in the Free List with other services).



> 2) You only included results for Kindle and did not include results for Nook, Apple, Kobo. That's straight up mis-representation


That's not true, and the Nook, Apple, and Kobo totaled 47 downloads, which not only didn't matter for the stated intent of the service description (Top 200 push) but also didn't impact where the service sat in the list of service providers in regards to CPC or Downloads/$. You know I sent you these numbers, including screenshots, and you know that I updated the spreadsheet with all subsequent attempts to appease you. There was no realistic way to appease you, imo.



> 3) When requested to do the change, you added in a very passive-aggressive and misleading statement. Instead of just saying
> 
> There is prorated refund in store credit. So if you buy $100 for 1,200 free book downloads, you can just rerun to get to 1,200 free book downloads


The package I purchased was a "Free Top 200 Push". The stated goal was to push a free book into the top 200 with focused downloads in a short time using your list of 8M+ legitimate readers. This result wasn't possible with the types of downloads experienced with your service. When you didn't deliver and I simply noted my results (not even singling your service out and at the time, willing to try your service again), you insulted me and demanded that I follow your commands or else litigation would happen. I played along for as long as I can because I am a people-pleaser, but eventually, I ran out of time to deal with this behavior and gave up.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

You are conflating two separate things

1) Your promotion missed, you had store credit. We sent you dates for a re-run. You never sent us confirmation that the dates worked, or that you were ready to do. We dropped the ball in that we never realized you hadn't written back. So ideally we should ahve said - this author hasn't confirmed re-run dates, let's email him again

that was the only mistake

2) In your list of results, you left out that

92% of books hit the target the first time

If the book misses you get store credit to re-run the book

3) You are conflating

my book missed

with

every book misses

****************

It is unfortunate your book missed
It is unfortunate that you didn't confirm re-run dates and we forgot to ask you again

However, that does not mean any of the things you are claiming

92% of books hit the target

Your book missing does not change that

If an author buys a package then they get to re-run if the book misses

If you forgot to confirm, and we forgot to remind you, that doesn't mean that there is no store credit

**********************

We understand your frustration. However, both of the things you are doing are not right

A) You put up a list and ranked us lowest out of ALL promotion sites on it. Even though every package is 10 cents per download or better, which puts it right at top 35% of all promo sites


B) Now you are making a lot of false and defamatory claims, none of which are valid as

We have proof of reader figures as screenshots on the website
We have proof of a super low dispute rate

You are basing all your conjecture on ONE book

*****************************

I wish you the best as an author. 
It's unfortunate that you're trying to draw out generalizations based on how your book did, and expanding to making very wrong claims about our service


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

ireaderreview said:


> Mr. Constantine you write: never felt the need to actively not recommend them. This time they've gone beyond the pale.
> 
> well, you pop up on almost every Books Butterfly thread and make snarky comments and wrong claims about our service. Now you're claiming this is the 'first time' you've felt the need to actively not recommend them
> 
> ...


No, it's not. But if you'd rather have your imaginary lawyer sue me, be my guest.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

We have zero interest in suing any authors unless they are doing wide scale defamation or racism against us

If you have done anything of that nature, please feel free to email us details and links

******************

I will repeat this so it's clear to people

We have zero interest in suing any authors unless they are doing wide scale defamation or racism against us

The Original Poster is spreading this false claim that we are suing authors for writing reviews.
Not at all

We are only suing a few websites and later a few authors for wide scale defamation and slander

From our list, for the authors we are going after, 80% or more are people who never bought any service from us

********
We support everyone's right to free speech

If you go beyond that and do defamation or racism then we will sue you

**************
also this response is so typical 'KBoards'
It must be an imaginary lawyer. Prove it

no one has to prove anything to a KBoards author. We will talk in court with the people and companies that are doing systemic and wide scale defamation, and the 2 or 3 people who are doing racist attacks


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

ireaderreview said:


> We have zero interest in suing any authors unless they are doing wide scale defamation or racism against us


Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. But regardless, I won't be sending you any details or links. Not when it's so much more amusing to have you do it yourself.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

ireaderreview said:


> 92% of books hit the target the first time


As I've mentioned to you in emails, before and after your service, the book in question hit top 200 multiple times with other services such as Freebooksy (2x), KND, GenreCrave, etc. I also find it very difficult to believe that you are able to track the percentage of books that hit their target the first time when you have admitted to me that you cannot track the CPC, clicks, or performance of your advertising service and must rely on self-reporting by authors. The 92% figure seems extraordinary, considering you admit you can't track performance.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Nobody can sue you for telling the truth, but if someone is going to run a business they should realise that other people are going to have an opinion about that business. They should also realise that stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum, ranting and threatening what could be their customers instead of sorting the problem, is not going to enhance their business. Obviously, they won't have that business for very long if they behave like this.

I have seen many, many angry replies from this company whenever anyone even mentions their own bad experience. They are not the only 'business' who have no clue how to treat customers.

I wouldn't have taken the reviews down; I might have added to them.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it.

It's unfortunate that in a serious topic like this you are coming in just to stir things up and get 'enjoyment' . i think it should make clear to the 97% of good authors what your real intentions are


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

You write:

As I've mentioned to you in emails, before and after your service, the book in question hit top 200 multiple times with other services such as Freebooksy (2x), KND, GenreCrave, etc. 

* Some books don't do well with our site, though they do well with other sites. That's the nature of book promotion


I also find it very difficult to believe that you are able to track the percentage of books that hit their target the first time when you have admitted to me that you cannot track the CPC, clicks, or performance of your advertising service and must rely on self-reporting by authors

* Why is that hard to believe

66% of authors become repeat customers
Only 1 out of every 300 customers file a dispute
we track sales rank changes and know general trends of how book is doing
Authors check kdp.amazon.com and if book misses they come back for re-run. People sometimes come back for 2 or 3 missed sales, or 50 or 100 missed free book downloads

The 92% figure seems extraordinary, considering you admit you can't track performance.

* It is extraordinary. That's what 8 million readers does

* We can track performance. KDP.amazon.com shows actual download figures. Amazon does not share download figures so no site on this planet can 'track' downloads unless they are the only ones being run.

* most of our authors run only with us

* some authors do direct downloads from their site and we use bitly to track. HIt rate there is even higher than 92%. So where it can be tracked we track

*****************************

Please consider the reason why we started the whole argument with you

You are basing all your ASSUMPTIONS around

My book is the one true test of how effective a promotion site is

***********
Every promotion site has some books that don't work with it

Our readers, unfortunately, sometimes just don't connect with a book

If instead of taking the store credit and running the book, you walk away from it (admittedly communication error on both sides, including ours) and then use that non re-run promotion for ONE book as some sort of golden test for how effective our site is
don't mention store credit
don't mention other stores

then we do have reason to get upset


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

ireaderreview said:


> I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it.
> 
> It's unfortunate that in a serious topic like this you are coming in just to stir things up and get 'enjoyment' . i think it should make clear to the 97% of good authors what your real intentions are


Oh, Lord.

Do your due diligence people and research a company before you use their service. Note that Amazon has removed accounts of people found to be using services that guarantee results, because if these companies break TOS, you're the one on the hook for it. They are worse at this now than they ever were, because of some bad authors.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Does he reply to literally everything?


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

To Paranormal Kitty

yeah pretty much

to - Unknown writer

Kindly do not wrongly try to link us to sites that are not legitimate

We are 100% legitimate

Admin, please remove this post as this author is straight up trying to compare us to companies that were doing illegal things

****************

GUARANTEE - if you miss, then you get store credit

It's like a Nordstrom Exchange guarantee if you aren't happy

If your book misses we run some other book or same book again to get you remaining sales

We do not in any way shape or form do anything illegal

It's all real readers

************


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

ireaderreview said:


> I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it.
> 
> It's unfortunate that in a serious topic like this you are coming in just to stir things up and get 'enjoyment' . i think it should make clear to the 97% of good authors what your real intentions are


Is that aimed at me? It's difficult to tell if you don't quote to whom you are replying. I rather enjoy this sort of thread, yes, because to sue someone for having an opinion is pathetic. The truth is not defamation - why can't you understand that?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

No more jabs about whether ireaderreview has a real lawyer, go-ahead-and-sue-me posturing, and so forth. That sort of stuff is not a review of the Books Butterfly promotional service and does not belong here.

ireaderreview, you have been provided with VerticalScope's contact info, and we expect you to direct your legal inquiries there. Further public threats will be deleted.

To reiterate KBoards' rules, those who use vendors' services may post reviews that focus on their own experiences. Vendors may respond to questions and/or allegations, but significant disputes between vendors and clients should be handled off-site. Both vendors and clients must use civil language in their posts (no name-calling, profanity, browbeating, etc.).


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Doglover

That response: I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it.
It's unfortunate that in a serious topic like this you are coming in just to stir things up and get 'enjoyment' . i think it should make clear to the 97% of good authors what your real intentions are

Is a response to this from Mr. constantine: My intentions are pretty clear: mocking someone who's throwing a temper tantrum and claiming they're going to start filing frivolous lawsuits.

***********************

I have nothing to say to you because neither you nor I are a defamation lawyer and if you think we can't sue people for calling us a Dirty Indian company or calling us a scam then you are mistaken

anyways, let's leave the legal matters to the experts

*************************

I think we should stick to what Becca Mills wrote i.e



> To reiterate KBoards' rules, those who use vendors' services may post reviews that focus on their own experiences. Vendors may respond to questions and/or allegations, but significant disputes between vendors and clients should be handled off-site. Both vendors and clients must use civil language in their posts (no name-calling, profanity, browbeating, etc.).


This thread is started by someone who runs a review site and closed down our page due to legal warnings, and then instead proceeded to make a lot of allegations about us on a number of other websites

So - not a customer, just a website owner
*****************
KBoards should not be allowing so much defamation and personal attacks (like him calling me an Ar**hole) and saying I'm one of the worst people he's ever met. And a nutcase.

So he's doing defamation against our company
and personal attacks against me personally

And KBoards is allowing this. Already there are 2,000+ people who've seen this

Becca, please talk to the Vertical Scope people and have them contact us ASAP. thank you


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

ireaderreview said:


> Becca, please talk to the Vertical Scope people and have them contact us ASAP. thank you


She said you've been sent Vertical Scope's contact details, so why don't you contact them yourself?

And how do you know I'm not a legal expert? I know the law is different in the US to England, where I am, but there is, I believe, a law against bringing frivolous lawsuits, same as here. Nobody needs to be a legal expert to know that the truth is not defamation.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> Does he reply to literally everything?


Apparently so {sigh!}


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

I write all this respectfully, so don't get upset by any of it

You write: And how do you know I'm not a legal expert? I know the law is different in the US to England, where I am, but there is, I believe, a law against bringing frivolous lawsuits, same as here. Nobody needs to be a legal expert to know that the truth is not defamation.

*
It is not a frivolous lawsuit if they call our Canadian Company a dirty Indian company
It is not a frivolous lawsuit if someone repeatedly calls us a scam and repeatedly wrongly claims that using us would get author in trouble with Amazon

*******
Libel Laws are much stronger in England. Strongest perhaps in Ireland
US defamation and slander law is different, yes

The same core principles apply. 

*********
the court will decide whether someone like JamesH (a website owner, not our customer) writing false claims about our company and personally attacking me is frivolous or not

**************
You are trying to create some doubt about it being legitimate by throwing in the word frivolous

I'd bet if someone did a misogynstic attack against you, you wouldn't think it's frivolous
Yet someone does a racist attack against us and you think it's frivolous?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

ireaderreview said:


> I write all this respectfully, so don't get upset by any of it
> 
> You write: And how do you know I'm not a legal expert? I know the law is different in the US to England, where I am, but there is, I believe, a law against bringing frivolous lawsuits, same as here. Nobody needs to be a legal expert to know that the truth is not defamation.
> 
> ...


What you say about being called a 'dirty Indian Company' is racist, but I haven't seen anyone on this thread say that. I don't know that anyone would. Neither did anyone call you a scam; all the OP did was to report the truth. Once again, I say: the truth is not defamation.

It might be useful for you to know the difference between libel and slander. There can be no slander on the internet, because slander is the spoken word. Libel is the written word. Defamation, I believe, is either.

What is being said here, as a legitimate warning to other, less experienced authors, is that using a site which 'guarantees' downloads, borrows or sales can get your Amazon account banned. This is not wrong; this is what will happen. This, again, is not defamation - it is fact, so there is little point in you getting all riled up about it. You might as well say the sea isn't wet as to argue with that one.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

1) An author on KBoards called us a dirty indian company. Glad that you finally agree that its racist and not 'frivolous'

2) Authors on KBoards have often resorted to calling us a scam. Glad that you finally agree that it is defamation and not 'frivolous'

3) What you are writing is disingenuous - site which 'guarantees' downloads, borrows or sales can get your Amazon account banned.

We offer a guarantee that if your book misses you get store credit to re-run it

So it is not 'guaranteed downloads', it is '92% of the time authors get X or more downloads
If you miss we re-run it

If you read the website instead of just jumping at the word 'guarantee' you'd know this

So for example

Silver Eagle is $50 for 500+ free book downloads

Guarantee*

Guarantee is that - 92% of the time downloads are 500 or more (500 to 2,000)
8% the book misses
Guarantee is that if book misses we re-run it again to get you to 500+ downloads

*****************************

You are trying to conflate us with sites that use illegal means
You are hiding behind the fact that some illegal sites in the past used to guarantee results

Our guarantee is - store credit if book misses. That's all. All the readers are real readers. We already have two authors (Tilly, Rex Jameson) talking about book missing - so that shows there is no 'guaranteed illegal downloads' as then no book would miss


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2018)

Additionally, regarding this



> What is being said here, as a legitimate warning to other, less experienced authors, is that using a site which 'guarantees' downloads, borrows or sales can get your Amazon account banned. This is not wrong; this is what will happen. This, again, is not defamation - it is fact, so there is little point in you getting all riled up about it. You might as well say the sea isn't wet as to argue with that one.


We have 50 to 100 sponsors authors and 200 to 350 curated authors EVERY SINGLE DAY

No one gets banned
Not one authors who has worked with us has gotten banned

Even with rank yanking issue was going on there was just 1 issue and that was author using multiple things like AMS Ads and us and some other site

*********************

So in your guise of 'helping warn authors about not using guarantee sites' you are being inadvertently misleading

No one using Books Butterfly has ever been banned from Amazon for using Books Butterfly
***************************************

We've offered a guarantee i.e. store credit if book misses, since July 2014
worked wtih 10,000+ authors since then

NEVER has an author been banned from Amazon for using Books Butterfly

*******************************
It's simply absurd that you would try to equate us with some illegal sites from the past


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Racist remarks are of course unacceptable in any thread and are removed as soon as they come to a moderator's attention.

I am going to lock this thread for the night so that tempers do not spiral out of control while moderators are off-duty. Ann will likely be awake and back on the forum in a few hours.

_Sunday morning, USA east coast:
Yeah . . . . I'm not re-opening it. I feel that there is nothing more to be said._


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