# Dean Wesley Smith



## ThrillerWriter (Aug 19, 2012)

I'm about to purchase a course from Mr. Smith--in fact, I think I'm about to purchase a course a quarter from Mr. Smith. I figured I'd check in here and see if anyone else had used his writing/business courses and what your thoughts were on them? Thanks for your help!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

His craft courses are good, especially the character voice and setting one.  (Though I took it in person, not online, so I don't know how much value you lose by not having the interaction with your fellow workshop attendees, which was pretty invaluable for me.)

His marketing advice is terrible. I wouldn't recommend any of his marketing/business courses. My rule is to never pay for marketing advice from someone who isn't successful with their own advice.


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## ThrillerWriter (Aug 19, 2012)

Thanks to both of you!


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2014)

David Beers said:


> I'm about to purchase a course from Mr. Smith--in fact, I think I'm about to purchase a course a quarter from Mr. Smith. I figured I'd check in here and see if anyone else had used his writing/business courses and what your thoughts were on them? Thanks for your help!


I love Dean Wesley Smith, but I'll just read his blog. I don't want to spend money on a course. I'd rather put that money into my covers or my editor.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

People with serials would probably be interested in this.  It could work the same way. 

Thanks, EelKat, for pointing this out. I'd been meaning to check out Dean's method a little closer to see how to utilize it. I do write bigger works, but have a few shorter things sitting around that might be interesting to produce in this way. 

Didn't you mention before that print has been dying a bit? Would you say it's still worth it to maybe give it a try coming into the market?


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

I agree the workshops are good for novelists.

I also wholeheartedly second the vote for the craft workshops. I haven't taken them all, but Openings, Cliffhangers, and Character Voice are great.

As for marketing advice, I have to nuance what Doomed Muse said.

I took the Pitches and Blurbs, and it really helped me see I should write a lot more like I learned as a copywriter. Active and dramatic, to hook readers.

They have another Promotions course, but I can't comment because I haven't taken it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Eelkat, almost everything you said is wrong.

Also, I know how much Dean makes (I'm a former student of his and was their friend for 4 years before a bunch of total BS went down and I learned some painful truths about them). He isn't making anything like 10k a year off his short stories, much less this made up 50k you mention. Most of WMG's income comes from workshops. Much of the rest comes from his wife Kristine Katherine Rusch's books (the bulk of their fiction income is her's, his stories, novels, and Smith's Monthly barely sell at all in any format). I don't know where you think you got your math, but it's all made up as far as I can tell. Your numbers are just guesses and they are WAY off.

And, as TW said, his craft courses apply to both shorts and novels. You'll often write shorts for them (at least, we did for the in-person ones), but I found their advice to apply just fine to novels and Dean talks about novels as well as shorts in many of the craft workshops. The pacing stuff he talks about directly applies to novels (all kinds, but especially thrillers) and he relates examples from pacy work like that of James Patterson etc.

So yeah, sorry Eelkat. Your post is pretty much wholly inaccurate. I won't go through it part by part because it would take too long, but here's just one example. You say fewer than 1/3 of the US has access to the net? WHAT?
80% (or more now) of adults in the US are online.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I took pitches and blurbs, and it helped a lot, but it seemed to me that there was too much focus on preparing your pitch for trad publishing rather than focusing on indy publishing. I never finished the last assignment - it was on writing your cover letter to an agent.

but the blurbs part was excellent.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

David Beers said:


> I'm about to purchase a course from Mr. Smith--in fact, I think I'm about to purchase a course a quarter from Mr. Smith. I figured I'd check in here and see if anyone else had used his writing/business courses and what your thoughts were on them? Thanks for your help!


Good on you for investing in more learning. I see a lot of writers on a lot of forums dismiss paying for learning of any kind, whether it's buying a craft book, or a lecture, or a course, or a writer's conference and it makes me sad. The day you stop learning is the day you stop growing.

Anyway, I've taken four of Dean's courses so far: Pitches and Blurbs, Ideas to Story, Covers, and Cliffhangers. Pitches and Blurbs was hugely useful for learning more about how to write effective ad and cover copy; one of the six weeks is largely devoted to writing cover letters for agents and publishers; may not be useful if you're going to self-pub only, but if you're going to take a hybrid approach, it's useful advice.

Ideas to Story was great, as was the Cliffhangers course. I'll be signing up for his other craft courses too. I've followed Dean's blog for a while, and I 'get' his tone and approach. I don't agree with everything he says, but more often than not, on one of his courses or lecture videos, he'll say something golden that I have to rewind and play a couple times for it to sink into my pores.

If the cost of the lectures is too high, try one of his lectures. $50 for an hour+ of detailed discussion on a variety of topics, which you can view as many times as you want, has been, IMO, a great return on my investment. Heinlein's Rules, Writing as an Investment, and Master Plot Formula are on my regular rotation--I rewatch them once a month as a refresher.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

I've really enjoyed and gotten quite a lot out of Dean's workshops and lectures, as far as I'm concerned they're more than worth the money. Taking the workshops has certainly improved my writing to no end.

Everything EelKat has said is  not at all helpful and may even put some people off because of the emphasis she places on it only being for short story writers.

Take the advice from the people who have taken the courses and who know what they're talking about.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I've taken both this Master Plot Formula and Heinlein's Rules lectures. They are invaluable.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

All-Seeing Books said:


> I'm considering this course. Was the indie portion worth the money? The agent bit is a surprise. He said top agents come to you, not the other way round.


I went through my course notes again. One possible knock on the course is that it was developed 2 years ago, and things have moved forward in that time and Dean's thinking has evolved a bit as well. Most of the course content isn't directly aimed at indies; it's more directed at writers who want to write more effective blurbs, tag lines, bios, ad copy, cover copy, cover letters, and pitches. Which, presumably, is most writers since we need most of that stuff whether we're hybrid, indie, or trad. Ultimately, almost all of the course content is directed at using effective writing to make more sales.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Did some pruning, folks. . . . . you're welcome to disagree with each other, but we expect you to do it courteously, thanks.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Bilinda Ní Siodacaín said:


> Everything EelKat has said is not at all helpful and may even put some people off because of the emphasis she places on it only being for short story writers.


Dean is certainly a novel writer as well. I can't speak to some of the other workshops, but the Cliffhangers workshop is definitely geared toward novelists. There's advice in it that can certainly be useful for short story writers, but by and large, it's geared toward techniques on how to end a chapter and keep readers reading into the next one.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2014)

JimJohnson said:


> Good on you for investing in more learning. I see a lot of writers on a lot of forums dismiss paying for learning of any kind, whether it's buying a craft book, or a lecture, or a course, or a writer's conference and it makes me sad. The day you stop learning is the day you stop growing.


Jim, since *I* said I don't want to pay for one of his courses, because I'd rather put the money into my covers or my editor, let me make this perfectly clear. I've probably read more "how to" books than a lot of people, and I've probably paid for more courses than a lot of people.

Now, at the stage I'm in with my writing life, I have a budget, and I stick to it.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Joliedupre said:


> Jim, since *I* said I don't want to pay for one of his courses, because I'd rather put the money into my covers or my editor, let me make this perfectly clear. I've probably read more "how to" books than a lot of people, and I've probably paid for more courses than a lot of people.
> 
> Now, at the stage I'm in with my writing life, I have a budget, and I stick to it.


Wasn't directed specifically at you, Jolie. Apologies if you took offense.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2014)

JimJohnson said:


> Wasn't directed specifically at you, Jolie. Apologies if you took offense.


I was the only one in the thread who said I wouldn't pay for his course. So . . .

But thanks.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

MeganBryce said:


> I love the lectures because he just kind of rambles, talking about lots of things and you never know what you're going to pick up. And I'm going to watch them more than once, definitely.


I found this to be true as well. I have one lecture under my belt. The first one I took, it was one of the cheaper ones discussing the Lester Dent Method just to see if he brought anything new and fresh to what was already a pretty thorough description of the method. I went in believing that the Dent method was gimmicky and formulaic and he didn't change my mind about that. He even admitted that it could be. The depth he went into _why_ it worked and still works so well in fiction blew me away.

I got a lot out of that one lecture that was _not_ related to the Dent Method, and as I can turn loose more money, I will subscribe to more of them.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

Eelkat, you have to realize a lot of Dean's novels have been work for hire (10th Kingdom, Star Trek), or have been ghost writing for other writers that he can't reveal. He also has several pen names, not all of which are revealed on his blog.

Also realize that Kristine Kathryn Rusch is also an instructor in their workshops, and she is an excellent writer. And she was the chief editor for SF&F Magazine for years.

I attended one of their writing workshops at a writing convention in Spokane almost fifteen years ago, and it changed everything about how I perceived writing. I don't agree with his marketing advice either, but he's a really solid teacher when it comes to writing, plotting, and construction of careers. They also have some of the best advice out there for contracts for anyone considering being a hybrid.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Because you can watch the lectures over and over once you've bought them, I tend to put them on in the background while I'm at work. Subliminal reinforcement, maybe.

I encourage everyone interested to check out the Writing as Investment lecture. I've mentioned it here and there before, but it was a major eye-opener for me and a great way to look at writing and publishing with an eye toward the long view rather than the short view.


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## jamielakenovels (Jan 14, 2014)

Yes, I like Dean Wesley Smith's courses. His lectures are awesome.  I think even if you don't like his approach, he has a lot you can learn from him. That said, I think he is not the be-all and end-all. You should expose yourself to as many people as you can and you'll pick up bits and pieces you can apply in your life.

Mostly what I've gained from his free blog and from his paid courses & lectures is this:

a) Treat your writing as a business. But to chair. Write in short sessions throughout the day.
b) Write, publish, repeat. Make your money in volume of titles, don't try to spend too much time marketing one book.

Granted, those are things I learned from his free blogs. But I especially enjoyed the short story lectures and a few others.  And although you can learn a lot from just reading KBoards, what he has to say is all in one place.  The lectures don't cost that much either. I think they're worth it.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

jamielakenovels said:


> You should expose yourself to as many people as you can and you'll pick up bits and pieces you can apply in your life.


Absolutely. Keep learning, and from as many folks as possible. Dean, Kris, Holly Lisle, the list goes on. You probably won't agree with everyone, but the nuggets of gold taken from here, and there, and one over there, add up.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Courses/Lectures I've taken by them & my honest opinions on them:

*Lectures:*

Heinlein's Rules - Great

Read Like a Writer - OK

*Courses*

Cliffhangers - Good

Openings - Good

Idea to Story - Good, and would be very good for anyone who has issues coming up with ideas. I didn't (I mistakenly thought it was more about turning an idea into a story, rather than coming up with ideas for stories - they've since clarified the description), but I still learnt some new techniques and some general craft tips that made it well worth the money.

Essentials of a Fiction Writing Career - Great (Can't believe they've pulled that one. They say it's because it's dated, but for me the best part of it was the discussion of the mindset and attitude required.)

Strengths & Weaknesses - Slightly disappointing (this is the only one that I didn't really feel was any more thank okish value for money-wise. Largely because it had no teaching & was just them looking at our assignments. I got what I wanted - confirmation that I was writing to a good enough standard to publish & some advice on areas I need to work on. However, that's basically all I got out of it. It was just about worth it to me - but I suspect that others might not feel the same. So, I'd advise caution on that one. I also didn't always agree with their analysis, because they called me out as doing things wrong on a couple of occasions when it was due to confusion over what the assignment was requesting, or due to cultural differences.)

Character, Voice & Setting - Good


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

All-Seeing Books said:


> I'm considering this course. Was the indie portion worth the money? The agent bit is a surprise. He said top agents come to you, not the other way round.


Maybe the first 4 lectures were usable for me. I still felt it was worth the money, and I still refer back to my notes.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

EelKat said:


> Keeping in mind here that his marketing advice includes buying vanity press print books bulk to distribute to brick and mortar and that NOT A ONE of those sales is going to show up on Amazon or effect his sales rank on Amazon.
> 
> Also keep in mind that Amazon ONLY LISTS 82 of his more than 300 titles.
> 
> ...


I did not know he geared just to shorts. Thanks for pointing this out.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

To those who've taken his courses, what level would say they are aimed at?  I've done some writing courses and am not really interested in having the same basics covered yet again - ie. POV etc. 

I'm interested in the plotting course because my biggest weakness at the moment is being able to turn an idea or concept into an actual plot.  I think if I could improve that, I'd be able to write a lot faster.  Would this course be worthwhile for that?  I figure if it means I can improve my writing speed enough to get an extra novel out a year, the ROI is definitely worth it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

kathrynoh said:


> To those who've taken his courses, what level would say they are aimed at? I've done some writing courses and am not really interested in having the same basics covered yet again - ie. POV etc.
> 
> I'm interested in the plotting course because my biggest weakness at the moment is being able to turn an idea or concept into an actual plot. I think if I could improve that, I'd be able to write a lot faster. Would this course be worthwhile for that? I figure if it means I can improve my writing speed enough to get an extra novel out a year, the ROI is definitely worth it.


I don't know that any course I've taken (and I've taken most of them) was good for plotting exactly. Dean strenuously advocates pantsing (he once told me that my use of outlines means that readers will always know my endings and thus my books will always be weaker if I keep doing that. I disagreed, he told me I'd find out the hard way that he's right then and we pretty much left it at that). I imagine that the pacing workshop might sort of relate to plot, but that's one they didn't teach in person, so I never took it. Same potentially with novel series workshop. But again, DWS is a pantser, he doesn't really plot things out, just writes into the dark and trusts 30 years of experience to guide him to a story that works.

I would say the Character Voice and Setting workshop is aimed at people who already have a good grasp of the basics, for sure, and is what I'd call an advanced level workshop. Not sure it helps with plotting though, but writing characters that are stronger can help with that indirectly.

For learning to plot, I recommend Robert Mckee's book http://www.amazon.com/Story-Structure-Substance-Principles-Screenwriting-ebook/dp/B0042FZVOY/ because while it is screen-writing focused, it applies to novels just as easily. It changed my life. I went from writing stories that editors said had "beautiful writing, but the story doesn't work for me" to selling because of that book.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

I've chatted with Dean off and on for years now. The man loves short stories, yes. But he's also written around a hundred or so novels. Actually, I think he is over a hundred, now.

So yeah, he's written several hundred short stories. And a hundred novels. He's not an either-or sort of writer. He does it all.

And that's sort of the way he approaches the whole business. His focus is...he has a lot of irons in the fire. He is writing his own magazine, right now, while co producing another magazine. He writes novels. He also writes shorts. He writes some things for trad pub, and indie publishes others. He work to get his books into bookstores, and he puts them everywhere online that will take them.

Dean and I do not always agree (especially on math!). But he's a smart man, an excellent writer, and most of us could learn a few things from his classes.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Doomed Muse said:


> His craft courses are good, especially the character voice and setting one. (Though I took it in person, not online, so I don't know how much value you lose by not having the interaction with your fellow workshop attendees, which was pretty invaluable for me.)
> 
> His marketing advice is terrible. I wouldn't recommend any of his marketing/business courses. My rule is to never pay for marketing advice from someone who isn't successful with their own advice.


Seriously? Dean makes a shitload of money. I've known him for 30 years now. He does extremely well with his get-rich-slow methods. He just doesn't go for fame -- and he learned long ago that short term gains don't mean much. (However, do not consider this an endorsement of his marketing courses per se: I haven't seen what's in them. I just know him.)

The caveat I'd give for his marketing and business advice (and this goes for his writing advice) is that he has no idea how much more energy he has than ordinary mortals. To do like he does is not easy. (Also, he tends to be adamant and inflexible about whatever he is experimenting with at the moment. Try to keep in mind that he is ultra-focused.)

Camille


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks Doomed Muse


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

kathrynoh said:


> To those who've taken his courses, what level would say they are aimed at? I've done some writing courses and am not really interested in having the same basics covered yet again - ie. POV etc.
> 
> I'm interested in the plotting course because my biggest weakness at the moment is being able to turn an idea or concept into an actual plot. I think if I could improve that, I'd be able to write a lot faster. Would this course be worthwhile for that? I figure if it means I can improve my writing speed enough to get an extra novel out a year, the ROI is definitely worth it.


Again, can't speak for actual content, but I do know that in general DWS discourages beginners from taking the workshops. For the longest time he refused to put the workshops online because he wanted to cull out the people who weren't committed enough to travel to Oregon.

I really can't answer the question about the plot. As someone else said, he's a pantser. If that works for you, he will get you somewhere with it. (And for short fiction, I can't think of any better teacher anywhere.) If you need more structure training, you could look at screenwriting books and classes. Screenplays are a lot more structure-based.

(And I know Dean claims you see a planned ending coming, but honestly, I've always thought the same about pantser plots, including his. But I'm into really tightly-plotted, deceptive mystery.)

Camille


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2014)

I can tell you one thing about DWS: he's got Heinlein's third rule ("never rewrite, except to editorial order") wrong.  If you pay attention to his discussion of the rule he often uses Harlan Ellison as an example of a successful writer who observes Heinlein's Rules.  So, I went to Ellison's forum, where he personally responds to fans' questions; I asked him about the rule, explaining DWS's take on it.  Another commenter said that the third rule is meant to limit revisions severely, not eliminate them entirely.  Ellison later posted to corroborate this.


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## PDSinger (May 15, 2014)

I took the "Think Like a Publisher" Coast workshop, which is not offered in one unit any longer. It's been broken up into several more manageable online chunks, including interior book design, cover design, getting your books into bookstores, and about 3 others.  Definitely worth the time and travel. A crit partner who took that  course with me also took the Anthologies workshop and has since made several short story sales to pro markets in addition to her own work. Another crit partner took the Thrillers workshop and thought she got a lot out of it.


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## williamvw (Mar 12, 2012)

I've also taken four or five of his workshops now, and am just finishing the Series course this week. So far, I've found the Cliffhangers set to be the best. Idea to Story was probably the weakest for me, because it's really about brainstorming, and coming up with ideas has never been the problem -- seeing them through to a finished product has.

I will say that Dean is pretty spartan with his feedback. For a while, this bothered me, especially at $300 a pop. However, I eventually realized that nothing about indie publishing involves being spoon-fed. If you want advice and answers, you better open your mouth and ask. He is always prompt and thorough in his replies, especially in the workshop forums. As with most things, you'll get out what you put in.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

EelKat said:


> *FACT:* There are just under 3million books listed on Amazon.
> 
> *FACT:* There are more than 8 million books in print.
> 
> *FACT:* Fewer than half the books available to readers are sold on Amazon.


According to Google, the number is more like 12 million. Do you really think that two-thirds are in English, though? I'd say 6 million at the very outside. And what percent of commercial fiction do you think isn't in Amazon?



EelKat said:


> *FACT:* Fewer than 1/3 of the USA has access to internet services.


Actually, 81% does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users



EelKat said:


> *FACT:* Only 1/3 of the 2/3s without internet have access to electricity, running water, or toilets. YES, In America.


NOPE! 0.64% of American households lack complete indoor plumbing (toilets, sinks, showers).
http://www.win-water.org/reports/RCAP_full_final.pdf

Fewer than .5% of Americans lack electricity.
http://www.unesco.org/new/fileadmin/MULTIMEDIA/HQ/SC/pdf/wwap_wwdr3_10_Annexed_table_access_to_electricity_and_water.pdf



EelKat said:


> *FACT:* Only 1/10 of book sales are of ebooks bought online. Print books bought from physical book stores is still king.


No. They're 30% of all units now from traditional publishers-and the actual percent is actually much higher because no indie titles are included in those numbers.
http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2013/study-ebook-growth-stagnating-in-2013/



EelKat said:


> *FACT:* DWS deals PRIMARILY in distributing his physical print books to physical print stores.


Not anymore, he doesn't. His small press failed years ago.



EelKat said:


> *FACT:* I make more money a week than the average Kindle author makes in a year, yet 3/4 of my 683 titles are not available online AT ALL. Like DWS I deal mostly in offline print sales via vanity press to physical bookstores.


You might. He doesn't anymore.

I also make more money in a week than the average Kindle author does in a year. It's not a high bar to conquer because the average Kindle author uploads one title and then when it doesn't sell gives up.



EelKat said:


> *FACT:* DWS makes $10,000 a year JUST IN PRINT SHORT STORY SALES on AMAZON


His highest ranked print fiction title is 1 million. That's just not possible.



EelKat said:


> *FACT:* DWS has 82 ebook short stories of 5k words each which sell for $2.99. Like me, he sells 1 to 3 copies of each title per week, which is why his sales rank stays in the 800,000 range (just like mine do - my own titles and DWS' titles are often ranked neck to neck on the Amazon charts). Here's a break down of what that looks like income wise:
> 
> DWS is raking in $50k in short stories just on Kindle. Well, he's gotta be doing something right in his marketing to do that!


Except he doesn't. He doesn't sell anywhere near that much, or his rank would be higher. His highest ranked fiction Kindle book is 800k.



EelKat said:


> Keeping in mind too, that DWS is a short story writer, with a few novels here and there. Compare his 800k ranked short stories with other short stories out there (not novels) and you will be surprised, because there are VERY FEW short stories ranking above 1,000,000 on Amazon, which means most are struggling to get 1 sale per month, or even 1 sale every 3 months; and yet DWS's short stories are getting MEGA-SALES with 1 sale a week - a RARE thing for short stories.


With four million titles on Amazon, three quarters are ranked below a million. My failure of a short story--the one that I wrote just because I had a wild hair--is selling more than one per week. Since I'm doing a ton better on my worst title than he is on his best, well.......



EelKat said:


> Yeah, gotta use some perspective here.


Agreed.



EelKat said:


> Remember ALWAYS that DWS is a short story writer giving advice to short story writers, and often what works in a short story may not work in a novel, especially when it comes to marketing. they are two different beasts and marketed differently. So, yeah, if you write novels and not short stories, yeah, his marketing courses may not do much for you.


Of course he gives advice to novelists, too! He and KKR have a price chart they believe novelists should follow, and KKR writes novels. They talk about novels a great deal, too.



EelKat said:


> *BEFORE taking any of his courses, READ THIS:* The New World of Publishing: Making a Living with Your Short Fiction Updated 2013 http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/the-new-world-of-publishing-making-a-living-with-your-short-fiction-updated-2013/


Except he's not. He's so very obviously not. He's making a living selling writing courses. I'd be okay with that if he didn't tell people wrong things about marketing, too.

He's also not selling many copies of his print books at all. Anthologies don't move. He doesn't have a hook of being an interesting local personality to get locals and tourists to buy from him.

I wouldn't have a problem with him making money off courses if he'd stick to craft and admit that's where he makes 90% of his income. He shouldn't say he sells more than he does, though.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

VMた said:


> According to Google, the number is more like 12 million. Do you really think that two-thirds are in English, though? I'd say 6 million at the very outside. And what percent of commercial fiction do you think isn't in Amazon?
> 
> Actually, 81% does.
> 
> ...


You are my hero. Thank you for actually using reason and facts here. <3


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2014)

Danni said:


> FACT: This forum needs a like button.


No joke there. If the moderators put it to a community vote we would have it. Their anxiety about negative effects doesn't seem to be the general consensus.

On the Dean Wesley subject - I love the guy's site / blog because he gets you motivated for writing and it was where I did the majority of learning before kboards. Dean maintains that he has secret pen names selling incredibly well. I would like to thank Doomed Muse though, because a few weeks back I traced her thoughts experiences to another thread and it made me realize a lot about Dean and his business I'd never understood before.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

ShaneJeffery said:


> No joke there. If the moderators put it to a community vote we would have it. Their anxiety about negative effects doesn't seem to be the general consensus.
> 
> On the Dean Wesley subject - I love the guy's site / blog because he gets you motivated for writing and it was where I did the majority of learning before kboards. Dean maintains that he has secret pen names selling incredibly well. I would like to thank Doomed Muse though, because a few weeks back I traced her thoughts experiences to another thread and it made me realize a lot about Dean and his business I'd never understood before.


You're welcome. Also, Dean does not have secret pen names anymore (it's actually in dispute if he ever did for some of the stuff he said he did, since some of his former students and I compared notes and realized there are a lot of contradictions in things he's said about that stuff over the years, and I've been told by industry people that some of the things he's said about ghostwriting projects never happened. So it's hard to parse the truth).

However, whatever my personal history with DWS is, I do maintain that the Character Voice workshop is worth it (or was when it was an in-person one, hopefully they haven't changed it much). It still is the best craft workshop I've ever taken (and I've taken quite a few, including going to Clarion).


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2014)

Ha Ha!  Like I said, I'll just stick to his blog.  He's said some things in his blog that I agree with, and I don't care what anyone has to say about that.  I like Dean, and I like some of his advice.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

FWIW... I just published again for the first time in 3 years and my little novella is rocking up the charts. It's a strong niche (Pride and Prejudice fan fiction, sweetheart historical romance) and it's only 27,000 words. I too never understood how shorter works could be successful, but I've made more in one week with no sales on this book (no countdown or free run) than I did in the first 5 months of the release of my first novel.

All of that weird "facts" about no Internet access etc. made me laugh. I'm glad it's been debunked. Last year in an issue of Wired it was revealed that every day, 1 Billion people touch a Google service online. Either gmail, google docs, or any of the other myriad of services Google offers. Amazon is huge, but Google is world dominating. Even households with no "internet" access often have smart phones that have no issues connecting to the Internet.

That said, I love Dean Wesley Smith's Think Like a Publisher series. It helped me think about ways to make sure I earn out before I published, and for that I'm grateful.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Man, I'm guessing this is a good example of why a writer shouldn't discuss money on public forums. I wonder if I'm the only one uncomfortable with Dean's business being dissected. I feel his business is his business. Much as I appreciate the insights from everyone, none of you are Dean or Kris and I'd be surprised if anyone has perfect insight into their financials.

None of my business anyway. Also, I'm surprised that there's so much attention drawn to their Amazon rankings when Amazon is only one of many sales outlets.

Anyway, I find a lot of his lectures and courses highly valuable and I'll continue to encourage folks to try his stuff out in the spirit of learning something.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I think if you teach business and marketing, it is perfectly fair for people to talk about if you have the chops to back it up and what your own business looks like and how your own advice is working for your business.

Same as if you teach craft, hopefully you have the chops to back that up.

I don't see how it is unfair to talk about either of those things when someone is charging other people money to learn from them, personally.  If I started offering workshops about how to sell books, I would hope people would ask themselves (and others if they didn't know the answer) whether or not I sell books and what my credentials were.  When you step over from doing into teaching, it's totally fair to question credentials, in my opinion.


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## BlairErotica (Mar 1, 2014)

JimJohnson said:


> Man, I'm guessing this is a good example of why a writer shouldn't discuss money on public forums. I wonder if I'm the only one uncomfortable with Dean's business being dissected. I feel his business is his business. Much as I appreciate the insights from everyone, none of you are Dean or Kris and I'd be surprised if anyone has perfect insight into their financials.
> 
> None of my business anyway. Also, I'm surprised that there's so much attention drawn to their Amazon rankings when Amazon is only one of many sales outlets.
> 
> Anyway, I find a lot of his lectures and courses highly valuable and I'll continue to encourage folks to try his stuff out in the spirit of learning something.


I enjoy Dean's take on business, which might not always be the same as taking it as advice. I think discussing his views here is valid, because he states them publicly on his blog and argues that he is a myth buster. That makes them fair game, pro and con. I have a few misgivings about the validity of posters using personal experience or past relationships to suggest they have special insights, as it is going to be, by its nature, anecdotal, but my issue is simply that I don't know them any better than I know Dean or Kris, and the comments tend to be subjective. I mean, it's easy to say that "no way is he earning X" but only truly meaningful if you can say: "He actually earns Y from short stories." Perhaps he does dissemble, as is suggested, but I'd point out that many times he prefaces his comments with statements noting that you are taking the advice of someone who sits in a room and makes things up for a living. BTW I've been a guest in Robert Heinlein's house in California and met Harlan Ellison, and I personally didn't find them in agreement on very much beyond the idea that you should write the best story you can write.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

This is why I think the money advice folks get here is bad.

It's almost impossible to guess at the income of books ranked below 100,000.  Books that sell at the 5 per month rate that DWS uses as a baseline tend to rank very very low, especially if that five is across multiple channels.  They also fluxuate a lot.

You cannot judge income by Amazon ranking.  Period.  (Heck, I sell most of my books via Apple, these days.)

That said, I agree with folks about his pricing of short stories.  (I understand his logic on it, but I don't agree with it.)  I do agree with his strategies, though, for certain kinds of books and kinds of writers.  They do work for some high selling types (some erotica writers were using his short story methods -- there are two or three threads which they created to follow their success) but they are of the greatest use for the slower selling genres.  If you write books that tend to stick in the under 20 copies a month, then you really do need to put a lot of emphasis on broadening your channel base.  If you write short fiction, then you really do need to be marketing that short fiction to paying magazines first, etc.

There's a reason why I also don't have any books ranked much above a million, and yet I am able to write full-time.  It's called multiple income streams.

Camille


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## Baron Bunghole (Jul 6, 2014)

Thank you, Eelkat, for offering your perspective on Dean Wesley Smith and his writing system. I've been debating whether or not to take his courses for quite some time, and it appears many are worthwhile. It's inspiring that you've been able to take his advice, build a business plan, and find tremendous success.

_Best of luck on your future endeavors!_


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

***********


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

bellabentley said:


> wow @EelKat love your reply on the page 1. Very thorough! I love DWS! <3 Been a faithful blog reader of his for a few years now. Excellent break down.


Keep reading. Specifically, all the posts that carefully break down the factual inaccuracies of Eelkat's post.

I'm not saying that to diss Eelkat. She typically contributes posts that are breathtaking in their usefulness. But this one was debunked pretty thoroughly multiple times.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

genrehopper said:


> I can tell you one thing about DWS: he's got Heinlein's third rule ("never rewrite, except to editorial order") wrong. If you pay attention to his discussion of the rule he often uses Harlan Ellison as an example of a successful writer who observes Heinlein's Rules. So, I went to Ellison's forum, where he personally responds to fans' questions; I asked him about the rule, explaining DWS's take on it. Another commenter said that the third rule is meant to limit revisions severely, not eliminate them entirely. Ellison later posted to corroborate this.


Some of that might be how DWS defines "rewriting" and "revision". He treats them as synonyms. I dunno about you, but I don't. We've argued in the comments on his blogs before, until I realized the disconnect.



daringnovelist said:


> You cannot judge income by Amazon ranking. Period. (Heck, I sell most of my books via Apple, these days.)


This. I don't sell much, but these past few months, I've earned more via OmniLit and Smashwords (Scribd, B&N, Apple) than I have on Amazon.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

EelKat said:


> *FACT:* Fewer than 1/3 of the USA has access to internet services.
> 
> *FACT:* Only 1/3 of the 2/3s without internet have access to electricity, running water, or toilets. YES, In America.


I know it's a dead horse thoroughly beaten, but I've got to point this out, because it's too funny. According to this math, that means around 136 million people in the US do not have access to electricity, running water, or toilets..aka 1/3 of the entire US population. So 1/3 of the entire US population is apparently pooping behind bushes in the dark, and then washing their hands using water from a bucket. FACT!


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> I know it's a dead horse thoroughly beaten, but I've got to point this out, because it's too funny. According to this math, that means around 136 million people in the US do not have access to electricity, running water, or toilets..aka 1/3 of the entire US population. So 1/3 of the entire US population is apparently pooping behind bushes in the dark, and then washing their hands using water from a bucket. FACT!


Don't judge us, you with your sanitation privilege.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Hrm, my math might be off, and it's only 70 million, or 20%.

And I'll judge you if I want to, from my glorious golden throne.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Most of my short stories are about pooping in the dark.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

daringnovelist said:


> This is why I think the money advice folks get here is bad.
> 
> It's almost impossible to guess at the income of books ranked below 100,000. Books that sell at the 5 per month rate that DWS uses as a baseline tend to rank very very low, especially if that five is across multiple channels. They also fluxuate a lot.
> 
> ...


Not only that, a fiction writer can also earn money from licensing (audio, film etc.). About 10 years ago I met an older man, around 60 at the time who had written well over a hundred books. I was basically shadowing him, being his little helper in exchange for learning and seeing the inside of his business. Well, let me say that it was an EDUCATION. This guy was a professional. He was constantly using his copyrights to earn $$$$. He even licensed the image of one of his characters for a frozen pizza company and as an action figure. I was IMPRESSED. And because of that exposure, the way I saw the writing business changed forever. When I think of fiction writing I think of selling books directly to readers, but also I think of how my copyrights can be exploited to keep a roof over my head and good food in my belly. But I've noticed that most in the indie community only talk about direct sales.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Kalypsō said:


> Most of my short stories are about pooping in the dark.


I still remember a Jeff Foxworthy routine about that...does that date me? Or narrow down where I live?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> I still remember a Jeff Foxworthy routine about that...does that date me? Or narrow down where I live?


Yes.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> I still remember a Jeff Foxworthy routine about that...does that date me? Or narrow down where I live?


I live in the middle of the city. That's why I can only poop outside at night. There aren't a lot of street lamps in my neighborhood. I've found writing in this subgenre niche to be very lucrative. Write what you know!


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Hrm, my math might be off, and it's only 70 million, or 20%.
> 
> And I'll judge you if I want to, from my glorious golden throne.


Fine. I will now be picturing you pooping on a toilet made of gold swords.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

LeeBee said:


> Fine. I will now picturing you pooping on a toilet made of gold swords.


A Game of Thrones: Number 2


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Monique said:


> A Game of Thrones: Number 2


Funny, unhappy readers of my books have made similar comparisons... ;-)


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> And I'll judge you if I want to, from my glorious golden throne.


Thank you for classing the place up. Nothing better than a golden throne of judgment.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Monique said:


> A Game of Thrones: Number 2


Song of Ice and Fire: The Waste of Times


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> Thank you for classing the place up. Nothing better than a golden throne of judgment.


I'll let you use it if you want. Just swear to use this first:


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## AJStewart (May 10, 2014)

This thread has taken an ugly turn. @LeeBee - your forum avatar is now creepy and funny as a result.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> I'll let you use it if you want. Just swear to use this first:


Internet Winner! I'll be back with your crown just as soon as I verify those 4.8 stars.


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## BlairErotica (Mar 1, 2014)

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> Not only that, a fiction writer can also earn money from licensing (audio, film etc.). About 10 years ago I met an older man, around 60 at the time who had written well over a hundred books. I was basically shadowing him, being his little helper in exchange for learning and seeing the inside of his business. Well, let me say that it was an EDUCATION. This guy was a professional. He was constantly using his copyrights to earn $$$$. He even licensed the image of one of his characters for a frozen pizza company and as an action figure. I was IMPRESSED. And because of that exposure, the way I saw the writing business changed forever. When I think of fiction writing I think of selling books directly to readers, but also I think of how my copyrights can be exploited to keep a roof over my head and good food in my belly. But I've noticed that most in the indie community only talk about direct sales.


That is worth a thread SunHi. I'd love to hear some of the ideas and I'm sure others would too.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Somewhat related to the OP, I'm catching up on my issues of Publisher's Weekly and was happy to see that Dean and Kris's magazine, FICTION RIVER, was prominently placed and discussed in an article about Kobo Writing Life. June 30 issue if anyone else reads it.

EDIT to add: Found the same article on PW's site (doesn't include the two cover pics in the print article).


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

AJStewart said:


> This thread has taken an ugly turn. @LeeBee - your forum avatar is now creepy and funny as a result.


I hear that a lot.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> So 1/3 of the entire US population is apparently pooping behind bushes in the dark, and then washing their hands using water from a bucket. FACT!


And only 2/3 of them wash their hands. FACT!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> I spent 25+ years making my living writing, both as a freelancer and as a corporate employee, earning in the low 6-figures when I retired early. And yet I know that's not what folk here are meaning when they talk about making their income from full-time writing. I believe the general understanding of "writing" in this context is non-fiction books and/or fiction of any length -- and then only counting the income derived from that.
> 
> Otherwise, because I currently have multiple income streams that pay all my bills derived from helping to publish others (along with some pesky investment income), I could well spin it by calling myself a writer and note that I'm earning a living; ergo, I'm earning a living from being a writer. Which is nothing more than a logical fallacy.
> 
> I could also count all the money I've ever made from putting words on paper - easily a couple of million dollars over the course of my career - and claim I've earned millions from my writing. And while true, in the context of this argument it isn't even close to truth.


I think you missed my point (or actually you missed several of them). You're looking at writing income as a contest -- as most people here seem to. It's not a contest, with fame and fortune as the prize. For many people, actually writing full time -- as in eight hours a day or more -- and writing what you want, is the prize. Winning the lottery is not going to get you there.

The key point, though, is: if you don't like to write erotica (or romance, or thrillers, or whatever is the "best selling" genre that you have the most aptitude for), then making a living a living at writing erotica doesn't count any more than being a stock broker. If you love to write the hot genres, then of course that's what counts. If you write children's fiction, or literary fiction, or less "hot" subgenres of categories like Mystery (which have not been adopted into ebooks or online selling at the rate of, say, romance), then you are NOT going to sell a bazillion copies.

But this isn't a get rich quick scheme. If the point is JUST making a lot of money, then nobody here wins. Koch Brothers, Warren Buffet and Bill Gates win.

The point here is how do you live your dream? (And winning the lottery is out.) If your dream does not include writing a hot genre -- if you don't even read hot genres -- then your success is going to depend on optimizing the income you get. You can't go for the quick win. You go for what DWS calls the Magic Bakery. I prefer to think of it as investment instruments. Your books are capital that you acquired with time rather than money.

You don't scoff at small venues. You take advantage of every opportunity that is reasonable to adopt (and you are smart enough not to scatter your energy chasing too many opportunities to make use of any of them). I still get income from the very first story I ever sold 30 years ago -- a story I would never make money on as an indie. As it happens, I sold all rights to it, but I'd never make anything off it as an indie -- the company I sold it to continuously sells it to educational publishers for text books and testing.

You make fifty bucks from this venue, and ten from that, and seventy five from another, and it all adds up to making a living. And if you're smart, you do like any investor does -- you don't just spend the returns, you reinvest them. That's what any entrepreneur will tell you too -- you stabilize your income by diversifying. Create a SEP account. Fund your IRA. Invest it in a mutual fund, whatever you can.

And most of the time, when you actually give yourself the option of building your assets (i.e. "just writing") you build a much more stable and successful business than the people out there flipping houses and trading commodities futures.

This is basic business. It's Entrepreneurship 101.

Camille


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

It isn't a contest. No doubt. But I feel like DWS places the bar so low that following his strategy won't get you anything more than a "Participation" badge.

Maybe that's as much as some genres can ask for. But I feel like a lot of people are selling themselves short. Meanwhile, the sooner you start piling up short-term gains, the sooner you can start parlaying those into long-term investments. Whether that's with a mailing list or in the stock market or however else you plan to get full-time.

Personally, I feel like anyone who works as hard as DWS does should be aiming a lot higher.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Edward, you must have some high standards indeed if a million words of content in about 11 months, between fic and non-fic, is setting the bar low.   

Dean's almost done with a full year of reporting his writing output on his blog (to the best of my recollection he hasn't missed a day) and most of that content is short stories, novels, articles in his various non-fic series, etc. It's staggering, really. And he's admitted on more than one occasion that he's a lazy writer!


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

That's exactly what I'm saying—someone with his work ethic, which is truly inspiring, should be rockin' the sales a lot harder. I feel like his bookselling philosophies are holding him back.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

***********


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MeganBryce said:


> Has anybody else taken his courses or lectures and willing to let us know if it was helpful or not?


I've taken four of the courses and all but a handful of the lectures. I should have time next week to post mini-reviews of everything so that folks here can make a somewhat more informed decision as to which ones, if any, they might want to check out.


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## Michael Kingswood (Feb 18, 2011)

MeganBryce said:


> Has anybody else taken his courses or lectures and willing to let us know if it was helpful or not?


I did "Character Voice and Setting" on the Coast. It was freaking awesome.

I've also done "Pitches and Blurbs" and "Openings" online. They were good, but not as awesome as the Coast workshop.

I got a LOT more out of being there and actually interacting with him, and the other writers at the workshop, for hours each day. Now, I'll bet the content is probably the same, just spread out over the 6 weeks as opposed to just one. But to me, at least, not having the direct interaction takes away an important element in learning and gleaning value from it. Your mileage may vary.

That said, certainly the online courses are quite a bit more affordable than traveling to and spending a week in Lincoln City, so I'd say they're certainly worth doing. I plan to do some more in time, but my spare money right now is going to cover art, audio narration, and saving up for the Anthology Workshop that he and Kris are putting on in February. That's going to be pretty cool, I think.

Anyway, that's my $.02. Hope it helps.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2014)

Has anyone bought his lecture on being prolific?  Is it worth it?  What are the main points?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

genrehopper said:


> Has anyone bought his lecture on being prolific? Is it worth it? What are the main points?


If you want to be more prolific, I highly recommend you buy this book and read it multiple times: http://www.amazon.com/2k-10k-Writing-Faster-Better-ebook/dp/B009NKXAWS/

It's only .99 and is full of tips for increasing writing output (and quality) without increasing time in chair too much (though increasing time in chair will increase your productivity as well, obviously).


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## Baron Bunghole (Jul 6, 2014)

> You make fifty bucks from this venue, and ten from that, and seventy five from another, and it all adds up to making a living. And if you're smart, you do like any investor does -- you don't just spend the returns, you reinvest them. That's what any entrepreneur will tell you too -- you stabilize your income by diversifying. Create a SEP account. Fund your IRA. Invest it in a mutual fund, whatever you can.


Hats off to you. _A splendid analogy!_


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> #1M+ is probably a sale every 4-6 months. And if you have that many titles out, most will be short stories and not commanding $4.99 per sale.


My two books ranked around a million both sold a copy within the last three months. But that's probably splitting hairs.


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## ThrillerWriter (Aug 19, 2012)

Just want to say thank you to everyone that discussed his courses! I'm going to jump into the craft portions starting in August.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> My point, actually, is that if someone's sitting on an inventory that's all ranking over #1,000,000, that person isn't making a living on their writing alone.
> 
> Say you have 100 books out with an average sales price of $4.99 and they are all #1M+ meaning fewer than a sale a month, but let's call it 1 sale a month. 100 sales at maximum 70% (no delivery fee or sales to 35% royalty countries) is $349.30. Double that for sales from other outlets and it's $700 a month or $8400 a year. Really, though, that's being super-generous. #1M+ is probably a sale every 4-6 months. And if you have that many titles out, most will be short stories and not commanding $4.99 per sale.
> 
> ...


Again, you're way underestimating the number of sales of a million ranker -- Just on Amazon, let alone all the other channels (which tend to do way better for the long tail books than they do for the "hot" genres and best seller).

The reason I hit this is not to say that Dean's advice is perfect. He's overly rigid about all advice - it's just how he is. (He also tends to present things in an overly optimistic light.)

However the fact is, the get-rich-quick approach works fine for a minority of writers. But most writers are going to be in the long tail. That's just the nature of the beast. The more of us there are, the more that is true. And -- I suppose this is the elephant in the room -- your sales are first and foremost determined by your writing itself. Your genre, your subject matter, your style, your skills.

People don't give sufficient credit to that. We all talk about marketing as if books were interchangeable commodities, but they aren't. Different authors (and genres and individual books) require different strategies.

The thing I do like about Dean's approach (which is not just one approach, btw -- he likes to experiment with things, and when he tosses out an idea, people mistake it for advice) is that he looks at writing the way investors look at money. Which, as with most financial matters, is the most realistic way of looking at it.

If you think of a book as like a bond -- as a capital asset -- five sales a month is a killer return. Two sales beats a T-bill. (And I'm calculating this as if you took the time you wrote the book and earned money to buy a bond instead -- also assuming you're in the 70 percent options pricing area.)

Where I disagree with Dean is his emphasis on specific tactics -- too much emphasis on getting paper into small bookstores, for instance. Yes, if you have the connections and skills so that you don't waste time on the learning curve, it can be lucrative, but it is also incredibly time and money-intensive. But it's an opportunity for the right book/author/time/place. I know people who had a nice, tidy income stream from hand delivering their regional books to a string of local bookstores.

And I guess that's, in the end the thing that makes me react to this: you can't dismiss ANYTHING out of hand. Just about every technique out there, even the stupid ones, work for somebody. And even the very best one will be an utter failure for someone.

That and you're way underestimating how much income a million-ranked book can bring in -- and you're way overestimating how much difference marketing could make for that book.

Camille


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> That and you're way underestimating how much income a million-ranked book can bring in -- and you're way overestimating how much difference marketing could make for that book.
> 
> Camille


I think you might want to consider that Phoenix runs Steel Magnolia Press and has a wide range of books and data to work with. I would venture to guess she is well aware what a difference it makes to market a book and what different rankings mean in terms of books sold. If you look up her past posts in the algorithm threads you'll find she does analyze and is very data oriented.


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## Dalia Daudelin (Jul 11, 2014)

Deanna Chase said:


> I think you might want to consider that Phoenix runs Steel Magnolia Press and has a wide range of books and data to work with. I would venture to guess she is well aware what a difference it makes to market a book and what different rankings mean in terms of books sold. If you look up her past posts in the algorithm threads you'll find she does analyze and is very data oriented.


Looking at my books ranked around 800k or higher, they sell one copy every few months. That doesn't add up to much money at all. When you're prolific, though, you _can_ live off of that if you have better selling works.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> I think you might want to consider that Phoenix runs Steel Magnolia Press and has a wide range of books and data to work with. I would venture to guess she is well aware what a difference it makes to market a book and what different rankings mean in terms of books sold. If you look up her past posts in the algorithm threads you'll find she does analyze and is very data oriented.


But her data is totally out of whack compared to my own numbers. Books that sell more than a copy or two a month will hang out around a million most of the time -- they'll pop up during a sale, but then drop right back down. Once you get below 600k, rankings become totally unreliable.

And because rankings are relative, what any particular ranking at the bottom means varies WIDELY. A sale in January will have a very different effect than a sale in July.

The bigger error, though, is in using Amazon data as her math base: My books tend to sell more on other venues, especially Apple. Sometimes they'll get really hot on B&N. And there are direct sales (which I don't do any more). Also, your overseas sales don't affect your .com rankings. It doesn't include income from sales to magazines or anthologies.

At best her numbers prove Dean right that for long tail writers, you have to go beyond Amazon.

AND -- why the argument anyway? Say she's right... what does that mean? Does that mean a different marketing method would do differently for those books? Do you really think a high-powered bookbub ad would make a difference for those particular books?

Data is great, but you can only extrapolate certain things from Amazon rankings; it isn't even good data, and it's misapplied. And that's really what bugs me here. It's like the old joke about the the guy looking for his lost contact lens far away from where he lost it -- why? Because there wasn't any light where he lost it, so he decided to look where there was light, rather than where the contact lens was.

Amazon rankings may be the only numbers you have, but that doesn't mean they actually answer more than a very few questions. They simply don't.

Camille


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

David Beers said:


> Just want to say thank you to everyone that discussed his courses! I'm going to jump into the craft portions starting in August.


Good luck, David, I hope you find them as helpful as I did


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Dalia Daudelin said:


> Looking at my books ranked around 800k or higher, they sell one copy every few months. That doesn't add up to much money at all. When you're prolific, though, you _can_ live off of that if you have better selling works.


Okay, that's odd. Because that's not my experience at all.

Here is a question, though: did those books sell a lot more earlier? Are we looking at a difference in history of sales?

I suspect books that always sell one or two a month rank lower than a book that sold 100 a month and then dropped down to one or two a month.

My only other thought on that is relative seasonal data: I haven't been doing anything in publshing or marketing for a year, and so the sales have pretty much slowed to near zero -- yet the rankings have held. Maybe right now, if you sell a book every other month, 800k is your baseline, whereas in early spring you have to sell more to get there.

Or... are you talking about how high the rank gets right after a sale, or where it spends most of the time between sales?

Camille


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## Dalia Daudelin (Jul 11, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> Okay, that's odd. Because that's not my experience at all.
> 
> Here is a question, though: did those books sell a lot more earlier? Are we looking at a difference in history of sales?
> 
> ...


I do know that the old ranking is taken into account, though it's not very heavy at all. Most of my worst ranked books are 1 or 2 years old though some did sell quite well at first. Most of my books spend some time below 200k, many below 100k, so perhaps you're right and that it is relative to that.

I'll keep a closer eye on them in the coming months and hopefully I'll be able to make a thread to really discuss this.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Dalia Daudelin said:


> I do know that the old ranking is taken into account, though it's not very heavy at all. Most of my worst ranked books are 1 or 2 years old though some did sell quite well at first. Most of my books spend some time below 200k, many below 100k, so perhaps you're right and that it is relative to that.
> 
> I'll keep a closer eye on them in the coming months and hopefully I'll be able to make a thread to really discuss this.


I was thinking of starting a thread on "Prawn Economics" for discussion of the bottom-feeder books, and things that have and haven't worked for them, etc. The thing is, at that point, who cares what the ranking is? Ranking is irrelevant. It's more about how those books become economically viable. Which really isn't a discussion for here. And isn't a discussion of interest to people who prefer to write off such books.

Camille


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> However the fact is, the get-rich-quick approach works fine for a minority of writers. But most writers are going to be in the long tail. That's just the nature of the beast. The more of us there are, the more that is true. And -- I suppose this is the elephant in the room -- your sales are first and foremost determined by your writing itself. Your genre, your subject matter, your style, your skills.


Building a career is NOT get-rich-quick.

I have never had a surge in sales. My strategy doesn't rely on a lightning strike. I'll be happy to get one, and I'll give it all due credit, but there are strategies that can build a career that has a reliable income of $50-$100k plus and strategies that almost never will.

Most of his advice is very bad for people who want to make a decent living at this. That's why so very few of his business students do.

For erotica alone, though, I'd say that his strategy would work well for most people.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Dalia Daudelin said:


> Looking at my books ranked around 800k or higher, they sell one copy every few months. That doesn't add up to much money at all. When you're prolific, though, you _can_ live off of that if you have better selling works.


He doesn't.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

VMた said:


> Building a career is NOT get-rich-quick.
> 
> I have never had a surge in sales. My strategy doesn't rely on a lightning strike. I'll be happy to get one, and I'll give it all due credit, but there are strategies that can build a career that has a reliable income of $50-$100k plus and strategies that almost never will.
> 
> ...


Actually, WHICH advice are you talking about?

Because I can't imagine any of them being good for erotica. (Selling paper books to small and independent bookstores is great for erotica? Really? Taking advantage of traditional and very non-traditional channels?)

Are you mistaking his short story experiment with his marketing advice? Are you talking about the Magic Bakery? Or is he now teaching some other thing in his workshops that I'm not aware of?

Camille


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

I'


daringnovelist said:


> Actually, WHICH advice are you talking about?
> 
> Because I can't imagine any of them being good for erotica. (Selling paper books to small and independent bookstores is great for erotica? Really? Taking advantage of traditional and very non-traditional channels?)
> 
> ...


Well, the paper advice isn't working for him or ANYONE.

I'm talking about lots of stories across genres, no editing except for proofing, making your own covers, pricing high, and avoiding free. Those work for erotica if you're doing fetish. I'd add that you should still do stories in series, though.


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## Dalia Daudelin (Jul 11, 2014)

VMた said:


> He doesn't.


To be fair, I was mostly talking about myself. I have looked at his numbers and my fiance and I were surprised to find we might be making more than he does. We were baffled that we were taking advice from someone doing worse than us, but then again his advice was sound when we started out. I still quite like Rusch and Smith, though, for helping newbie authors.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Dalia Daudelin said:


> To be fair, I was mostly talking about myself. I have looked at his numbers and my fiance and I were surprised to find we might be making more than he does. We were baffled that we were taking advice from someone doing worse than us, but then again his advice was sound when we started out. I still quite like Rusch and Smith, though, for helping newbie authors.


I knew you were, but I was just addressing the fact that it could be a game-changer. Because you're right--it could.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

So, I've been following this thread and I'm glad to get some good recommendations on writing podcast/lectures. However, I'm just trying to figure out how anyone knows how much money Dean and his wife earn. Does he have his numbers posted someplace like some other authors in this forum? Or, are these statements about his income just based on his Amazon rankings?


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## Dalia Daudelin (Jul 11, 2014)

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> So, I've been following this thread and I'm glad to get some good recommendations on writing podcast/lectures. However, I'm just trying to figure out how anyone knows how much money Dean and his wife earn. Does he have his numbers posted someplace like some other authors in this forum? Or, are these statements about his income just based on his Amazon rankings?


Amazon rankings aren't a perfect judge of earnings, but they're generally quite valid. It's harder to know for sure how many sales they have per book once they're 800k+, but there are plenty of guides out there telling you how to tell how much a book makes based on rankings.

So, not perfect, but for this thread? Good enough. The fact of the matter is that an 800k+ book is not making much money at all.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

Dalia Daudelin said:


> Amazon rankings aren't a perfect judge of earnings, but they're generally quite valid. It's harder to know for sure how many sales they have per book once they're 800k+, but there are plenty of guides out there telling you how to tell how much a book makes based on rankings.
> 
> So, not perfect, but for this thread? Good enough. The fact of the matter is that an 800k+ book is not making much money at all.


Okay, so I had to go back and read the OP again. So, just to clarify, are you guys saying that his business lectures aren't a good investment because most people in this forum and probably most indies rely on Amazon to earn income from their fiction and he doesn't seem to rank high on Amazon (indicating low sales) so he can't give advice in that instance? Sorry if I'm sounding slow here. It's just that I don't measure writing income (or even fiction writing income) solely by revenue from Amazon, so I was a little taken aback that he was being judged by his Amazon rankings. However, if you're argument is what most indies are looking for advice on how to sell on Amazon then I can kind of understand why you would say that.

ETA: Nevermind, I just got a clarification via PM.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I am saying his marketing advice isn't good because it doesn't sell books on any channel, Amazon included. To be clear.

The basics of his message (write a lot, release regularly, etc) is good. It's the same commonsense advice you'll get from anyone, for completely free.  His advice on pricing, his obsession with bookstores, his dislike/distrust of things like reader reviews, calls to action in your backmatter, utilizing paid advertising to goose sales, utilizing perma-free and funnels, and basically his dislike/disrespect for 90% of the things that actually are shown to sell books is what makes his marketing advice suspect.  He can't even sell his own books, so I don't believe in advising people to follow his advice on how to sell books. 

(For what it's worth, I followed his advice for years and did horribly and saw my fellow students doing horribly. I ditched a lot of it, the marketing stuff, and started following what I had seen actually work (free, funnels, lower pricing etc) and tripled both my sales and my income inside a month.  When I discussed these results with DWS, he yelled at me, told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that it wasn't me changing my pricing but that somehow my writing had magically gotten better overnight (I had no new releases, so not sure how that happened when I changed nothing...) and ultimately banned me from his workshops. This came out of a single conversation after 4 years of friendship, me attending in person 15 workshops, going out there for lunch once a month or more, etc.)


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## S.E. Gordon (Mar 15, 2011)

> Well, the paper advice isn't working for him or ANYONE.
> 
> I'm talking about lots of stories across genres, no editing except for proofing, making your own covers, pricing high, and avoiding free. Those work for erotica if you're doing fetish. I'd add that you should still do stories in series, though.


I'm not sure if you're trying to be argumentative or helpful, VM. You certainly appear to be the alpha debunker of the group.



> Building a career is NOT get-rich-quick.


I agree that an author should be more concerned with building a career vs. get-rich-quick techniques, but some of those get-rich-quick techniques work quite well. Throwaway Writer was one such author who could easily be associated with the latter and was reviled for writing across multiple genres to see what sold. Obviously he was doing something right, and earned $1,000/day for a while before he, too, was impacted by the algorithm changes and erotica purge. I can attest that he was the real deal (and chastised me for giving away too many copies of my children's books), and much of his advice was spot-on.

Going the get-rich-quick route by default builds a career, but it may not be one that holds your interest or is sustainable in the longterm. Authors who jump on the erotica bandwagon are often associated with this, and I'd imagine that they don't mind such a label as they siphon off thousands of dollars in their bank accounts each month.



> I have never had a surge in sales. My strategy doesn't rely on a lightning strike.


I do, quite frequently. It's called the free giveaway, or more recently, the BookBub free giveaway. Though the effects are temporary, if they are repeated often (multiple giveaways with strong promotion), they can result in several thousand additional book sales annually.

But I'll admit, it might not work for everyone.



> Most of his advice is very bad for people who want to make a decent living at this. That's why so very few of his business students do.


Did "most" of his business students actually implement his advice? EelKat did, with remarkable results.



> For erotica alone, though, I'd say that his strategy would work well for most people.


Wait...what? So it is good advice, then

And regarding what you said earlier...



> I also make more money in a week than the average Kindle author does in a year. It's not a high bar to conquer because the average Kindle author uploads one title and then when it doesn't sell gives up.


The second part of your comment is completely subjective unless you can offer up a link. I'd wager that the average Kindle author has a life--a full time job, one or more kids, and little free time and/or support. And let's not forget all of those incomplete manuscripts tucked away in desk drawers and forgotten folders on our hard drives.



> He's also not selling many copies of his print books at all.


Without having Mr. Smith's sales data, how can you know this for sure? If this is based on Amazon rankings, it's an incomplete analysis, at best.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I was going to do a long post answering everyone's point (including acknowledgements of some points being absolutely valid) but I need to get back to my writing.

So I'm going to say this instead:

Dean's main flaw is that he believes he's absolutely right -- even when he changes his mind about the thing that he was absolutely right about last week.  He's always been that way.  But if you can filter that, he's got a lot of good information.  If you _can't_ filter that, then I do agree, his workshops aren't for you.  As a matter of fact, I'm not actually recommending them because I don't know what he's actually teaching in them.

The thing I'm actually objecting to here is, well, that the "absolutely right" bug seems to hit others as well, including some right here in this thread.

The fact is, all of those methods mentioned here as being sure fire proven winners do not work all that well for many, if not most writers.

I'll just mention one or two things brought up here: someone said "the paper strategy doesn't work for anybody."  And yet I know people it works for.  No, it doesn't make them rich, but they don't write the kind of books that make them rich. They don't write the kind of books that sell on Amazon.

And when you have that kind of book, you have to think outside of the box.  (And that's one of the things that DWS is pretty good at, though people tend to ignore it because that's not what they want -- so they don't tell others.)

Freebies, or another instance, work for some people and with some books, but they don't always work.  And even when they do work, they tend to stop working after a while.  It just depends on whether you write for an audience that likes freebies -- and whether you write the kind of fiction that lends itself to that.  They are very far from a sure-fire tactic. (Am I against them? No.)

It's important for people to hear opposing voices to all this adamant certainty that these "tried and true" methods work, when, frankly, they won't work long for most people.  (Heck, you just hang around here long enough, and you'll see a complete change in that 'absolute' advice every year.  Mainly because those wonderful methods stop working once everybody uses them.)

I don't like Dean's absolute certainty any more than I like the certainty I hear here.  I find it's important to realize that all marketing advice is really just a set of ideas.  You should never dismiss them out of hand.  Weigh them as ideas. Try them as ideas.  If they work for you, great.  If they don't work for you, leave 'em alone.  (Or try 'em again when your situation changes. What goes around does come back around.)

So instead of going point by point through things some say "never work" and talk about when they have actually worked, or the reverse, I'm going to just sign off on this topic. 

Sometime tonight or tomorrow I'll create that "Prawn Economics" thread where those of us who are interested can talk about what has worked for books that the standard KB advice doesn't work for.

Camille


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

segordon said:


> I'm not sure if you're trying to be argumentative or helpful, VM.


I'm trying to be helpful.



segordon said:


> I agree that an author should be more concerned with building a career vs. get-rich-quick techniques, but some of those get-rich-quick techniques work quite well. Throwaway Writer was one such author who could easily be associated with the latter and was reviled for writing across multiple genres to see what sold. Obviously he was doing something right, and earned $1,000/day for a while before he, too, was impacted by the algorithm changes and erotica purge. I can attest that he was the real deal (and chastised me for giving away too many copies of my children's books), and much of his advice was spot-on.


Okay, you entirely misunderstood the conversation.

What CAMILLE said is that DWS's techniques are NOT get-rich-quick. She was insinuating that authors who disagreed with DWS, like me, WERE in a kind of get-rich-quick scheme, while he has a blueprint for sober, solid growth.

I never called what ANYONE did get-rich-quick--I just objected to that label being applied to me and others who don't like the fact that DWS's techniques do. not. work. outside of erotica and argue the fact. If we object to DWS, her argument is, it's just because we're get-rich-quick types.

To clarify, some of DWS's techniques are:

-Write a ton of titles and words
-Write across a bunch of genres
-Price high
-Never give away your work
-Make your own overs
-Edit only for typos

This is what Camille is calling a method that is NOT get-rick-quick but builds sales slowly.

Now, I said that parts of his techniques can work really well to make money in erotica categories, especially fetish. And I said that it doesn't work for most genres to sell anything at all. (Some of his advice, like not asking for reviews in backmatter or linking to your mailing list, are just horrible for anyone.)

What you are saying confirms that it's good for making money in erotica--and you're saying that it works AS a get-rich-quick scheme! So that means that you're agree with me that it works in erotica and are disagreeing with Camille that it's a get-sorta-fulltime-slowly.

To clarify, what I advocate is:

-Writing good books
-Sticking to one viable genre
-Writing in one or more series
-Writing prolifically, but not at the expense of craft
-Using SOMETHING to drive people to the first book--pricing, platform, ads, and/or networking
-Editing as necessary to make an excellent story
-Using professionals to do whatever you can't do very well

This is what Camille is calling get-rich-quick, I guess.

Now, I will add that you COULD spend a year or so throwing stuff at the wall and then run with what sticks. But that isn't really a dependable way to judge future sales.  If it were, I'd try to do it--not to get-rick-quick but to decide which of my ideas to run with.



segordon said:


> Did "most" of his business students actually implement his advice? EelKat did, with remarkable results.


Yes, they do. And outside of erotica, they fail miserably.

EelKat was doing her own thing years before she'd heard of DWS.

I object to DWS simply because his methods don't work for fiction writers in most genres. That's it.



segordon said:


> The second part of your comment is completely subjective unless you can offer up a link. I'd wager that the average Kindle author has a life--a full time job, one or more kids, and little free time and/or support. And let's not forget all of those incomplete manuscripts tucked away in desk drawers and forgotten folders on our hard drives.


Yes, because I don't have a full life. I'm not a fulltime homeschooler with three kids, including a one-year-old.

It's not a "subjective" statement. It might be contrafactual, but it's not "subjective." It's pretty simple math, really.

There are 600,000 authors on Amazon with Author Central accounts. All you have to do is look at the average rank of authors on Amazon and look at where your sales were to realize that most aren't making hardly any money at all. Look at your Author Central account. One sale per day at $2.99 keeps you between 100k and 150k, meaning that you're better ranked than 75%+ of Amazon's authors at that rate of selling. That's $700 per year, and you're WAY above average. (Author Central has been in existence less than 10 years!)

Facts aren't mean. Facts are facts. But anyhow, among active writers who are continuing to produce, over half make less than $500 per year:

" But a recent survey of 1,007 self-published authors, recounted by The Guardian here, found that average earnings were just $10,000 a year, with half of the respondents earning less than $500."

That means that the average ACTIVE author makes less than $500 per year. And, yes, I do make more than that in a week, too.

http://litreactor.com/columns/six-tough-truths-about-self-publishing-that-the-advocates-like-to-avoid-discussing



segordon said:


> Without having Mr. Smith's sales data, how can you know this for sure? If this is based on Amazon rankings, it's an incomplete analysis, at best.


DWS write articles about how people who adopt his techniques can expect to sell a book a week across their inventory IN THE DIGITAL FORMAT an in a year be earning at a $50k-ish-a-year rate IN EBOOKS.

He absolutely is not doing that. You can check his ranks across the other stores--they're no better. Say what you will about other sales that might possibly be occurring in a local indie bookstore. He is NOT DOING what he's telling all his students they can do.

He shouldn't be telling people things that aren't true. It's not right.

There are AT LEAST 50 people on this board following DWS's advice who don't write erotica. Let's hear it from 5 of them who made $4.2k in their 12th month of following DWS's advice if they made less than $100 in the first and for whom their money has scaled upwards ever since.

DWS lives in a world where failing at the things he's failed at means you aren't doing them right, and succeeding with other techniques means that you're some sort of hack (because never editing your work makes you NOT a hack).


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm just going to dive in here for a minute and point out that both Tattooed Writer and I had our beginnings with the DWS method with some pretty decent success (thousands of books sold) and it wasn't in erotica. And yes it does work in other genres.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Bilinda Ní Siodacaín said:


> I'm just going to dive in here for a minute and point out that both Tattooed Writer and I had our beginnings with the DWS method with some pretty decent success (thousands of books sold) and it wasn't in erotica. And yes it does work in other genres.


Neither of you follow his pricing though, I believe. And I imagine you do things like have social media and mailing lists and actually place some importance on getting reviews beyond PW and Kirkus etc... All of which would mean you are not really following his methods.

Being prolific, writing good fiction, things like that... those are bits of advice that pretty much anyone will give you. When I say DWS's advice doesn't work, I'm talking about the parts that are specific to him. The pricing, his view on reviews, his views on paid marketing, his views on funnels, his insistence that print is still king, etc.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

VMた said:


> DWS write articles about how people who adopt his techniques can expect to sell a book a week across their inventory IN THE DIGITAL FORMAT an in a year be earning at a $50k-ish-a-year rate IN EBOOKS.


Just want to jump in here on this, because this is probably the source of a lot of the disagreement comes from: you're talking about his short story experiment. Which was an experiment. It was presented as speculation. It was never presented as something anyone had ever done and succeeded at. It was presented as a thought experiment, openly saying he was making guesses. He simply ran the numbers on his speculations. (Which were 'if you sold five copies a month across all venues' as the average per title.)

This assumes maybe two sales a month at Amazon.

It also assumes, to get to the 50k mark, that you keep it up for years before you get to that point. He proposed this two years ago, and he didn't do more than six months of it himself -- which would would put the experiment as proposed at stlll the 3k a year income level.

I realize that most people are really bad at math, and they don't read all that closely, but that's no excuse treating this as a get-rich-quick scheme.

And that is why I am saying that the criticism of this is entirely driven by get-rich-quick thinking. The GRQ thinking is the idea that people other than DWS are spreading: that this is some established method which will make you 50k a year right away. Which is never how he presented it. That's entirely invented by people here on KB (perhaps reasonably, because for some here on KB, that is how it worked out).

(As for paper -- the one thing the proposed experiment does state as a fact is that anyone who does this should be submitting the best of the stories to paying magazines. I think he included that in the income totals too, but I could be wrong.)

Camille


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

$50k a year isn't even close to rich!  It's decently middle class when you're paying for your own healthcare and your own retirement and your own business expenses. Once you subtract those things, it's less than a first-year elementary school teacher. Is that rich?

You CAN reach that level of income in less than 6 months of writing with other methods and without doing anything amazing or special or unusual, with solid books in a clear genre with a decent audience. You might not even be showing up on the HNRs of your genre at that level, if you're in a competitive niche. Check the sales rankings in contemp romance, for instance, or (even worse) thriller. If you're staying on the HNRs for an entire month and you have any kind of backlist, you're pulling $100k, easy. 

If I thought I had to put in 60hr workweeks for 2 or more years to make an elementary teacher wages, I wouldn't be here. I'd be selling elastomeric chimney caps at $300 profit per day or going after the rich townhouse owners to sell them fancy landscaping packages at $50-$200 per month.    

Anyway, that aside, DWS has presented the idea of the one-a-week seller over and over again as an actual business strategy--a viable strategy for mainstream fiction. Except it doesn't work outside of erotica. 

And DWS explicitly states that you'll be making $50k in one year following this method from your digital sales alone. That's what his math says, too.  Whether or not he's still doing the "experiment," he has a huge digital backlist that is selling at nothing like the level he keeps proposing. And he's never said, "I'm sorry, that thing about the low sales?  It totally doesn't work."  He still acts like it does. 

Again, you HAVE to be talking about the bits that are unique to him--high prices, no editing, no professional covers or editors, little attention to series, no sales funnels, uniform branding across very different genres, no mailing lists.  "I write a lot and put out a lot of titles" doesn't count because EVERYONE says it's better to write a lot. Wrote across genres?  If you have different pen names, you aren't following his advice. I'm arguing against his technique, and I'm putting out 4 titles this month!

I'm still kind of amazed at $50k gross earning level after a year of work being considered getting rich quick. I'd hate to see what "slow" is. Because what he describes is some crazy hours of work!  It literally couldn't be your side gig if you were producing that much. No one is THAT fast.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Neither of you follow his pricing though, I believe. And I imagine you do things like have social media and mailing lists and actually place some importance on getting reviews beyond PW and Kirkus etc... All of which would mean you are not really following his methods.
> 
> Being prolific, writing good fiction, things like that... those are bits of advice that pretty much anyone will give you. When I say DWS's advice doesn't work, I'm talking about the parts that are specific to him. The pricing, his view on reviews, his views on paid marketing, his views on funnels, his insistence that print is still king, etc.


In the beginning yes we tried the pricing and the no social media etc and built quite a few successful names from it. Our own version has evolved out of that since then especially as we began earning enough to go fulltime. I can afford to experiment more now with longer works etc but if I were to start another brand new pen name tomorrow in a genre, I know I could get it up to a very decent and comfortable income level in a relatively short amount of time following the DWS method.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Look, if his advice works for you, follow it. If you want to keep him in business, buy his workshops.  The craft ones are good and really useful, in my experience (which is in-person, not online, but other than lack of interaction with peers, I imagine it's similar).


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2014)

I wish Dean would post in this thread so that I can hear from *him*. Dean, if you're reading this, I would love to hear from you. If you don't want to post here, feel free to PM or email me.


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## Gerald Hartenhoff (Jun 19, 2010)

I have also heard Dean say about any advice that if it works for you, use it, and if it doesn't, throw it away.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Hutchinson said:


> The successful people we know, whether it's this brave new world of e-publishing or more ordinary lines of work, pretty much all have one basket and just save up in good years and pull the old belt tight in lean years and don't worry about multiple conflicting ways to earn money.


Put all your eggs in one basket and then _watch that basket._


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Joliedupre said:


> I wish Dean would post in this thread so that I can hear from *him*. Dean, if you're reading this, I would love to hear from you. If you don't want to post here, feel free to PM or email me.


You'd be better off contacting him directly or commenting on one of his blog posts. I have never known him to not respond to a blog post or an email.

It's possible he lurks here from time to time, but having followed him for a long time, I believe he'd read a thread like this and shake his head and go back to writing. Commenting here would definitely fail the WIBBOW test.

I'll start a separate thread next week with comments and reviews on the courses and lectures I've taken from him and Kris and maybe other folks who have taken the lectures and courses could chime in with their reviews too.


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## Dalia Daudelin (Jul 11, 2014)

Honestly asking him to come here might be asking for unnecessary drama and I hope he doesn't take the bait.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Look, if his advice works for you, follow it. If you want to keep him in business, buy his workshops. The craft ones are good and really useful, in my experience (which is in-person, not online, but other than lack of interaction with peers, I imagine it's similar).


Yes, exactly. Different advice works for different people, and sometimes several different kinds of advice works for the same person, but on different books. And -- once again -- I'm not recommending his workshops. For me, expensive workshops are not worth the price anyway (his or anyone else's). My only caveat is that you should never let hype, or enthusiasm, sway your judgement. You have to take every idea and consider it on its own merits, and weigh whether it is worth trying for yourself.

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Joliedupre said:


> I wish Dean would post in this thread so that I can hear from *him*. Dean, if you're reading this, I would love to hear from you. If you don't want to post here, feel free to PM or email me.


You really don't want Dean posting on this group. For one thing, he'd have another stroke, more than likely. For another, as I said, he is incredibly rigid and adamant. The people here who say he has banned them... I'm sure he has. And I'm sure they are correct that it's just because they disagreed. He's lost his temper with me for agreeing with him sometimes.

If you really want to know where he stands and what he says -- it's all there in his blog. If you want to know the basics of his actual marketing strategy, do a search on "Magic Bakery." And watch the date of whatever you read. What he says changes with the changing times. (And, imho, his blog is probably the better place to learn anyway. You can buy his books if you want to support or pay back.)

Camille


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2014)

JimJohnson said:


> You'd be better off contacting him directly or commenting on one of his blog posts. I have never known him to not respond to a blog post or an email.


Yeah, you're right, Jim.



> I'll start a separate thread next week with comments and reviews on the courses and lectures I've taken from him and Kris and maybe other folks who have taken the lectures and courses could chime in with their reviews too.


Sounds good.



Dalia Daudelin said:


> Honestly asking him to come here might be asking for unnecessary drama and I hope he doesn't take the bait.


You're right. I hope he doesn't either. I'll contact him on my own.



daringnovelist said:


> If you really want to know where he stands and what he says -- it's all there in his blog. If you want to know the basics of his actual marketing strategy, do a search on "Magic Bakery." And watch the date of whatever you read. What he says changes with the changing times. (And, imho, his blog is probably the better place to learn anyway. You can buy his books if you want to support or pay back.)


Camille, I'm well aware of that, but thanks for your opinion.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

VMた said:


> If I thought I had to put in 60hr workweeks for 2 or more years to make an elementary teacher wages, I wouldn't be here. I'd be selling elastomeric chimney caps at $300 profit per day or going after the rich townhouse owners to sell them fancy landscaping packages at $50-$200 per month.


Oh, I don't believe you for a second! I bet that you were just the same as every other writer starting out, writing in your free time for positively no money, and that you did it whenever you got the chance--whether that was 10 hours a week or 60.

Maybe _now_ you wouldn't spend that much time for very little money, but I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that lots of other authors would work this hard and probably do. And if it is so easy, so paint-by-the numbers, to make six figures at this, why are so many people struggling? Can they really all just be doing it wrong, or is it possible that there are simply way too many variables out there for you to be really be sure how or why this worked for you or if it's even repeatable?

I once wrote for 16 hours a day, three days in a row. 17K a day. I didn't do that for money. I did that because I was having the time of my _life._  (Incidentally, though, that book is basically responsible for my being able to quit my day job. Anyway, that's what I want back--more joy, less rules, less write-this-way-if-you-want-to-succeed. I'm going to go do it my own way now, everyone. Y'all can do whatever you want, including listening to DWS or not.  )


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2014)

valeriec80 said:


> Oh, I don't believe you for a second! I bet that you were just the same as every other writer starting out, writing in your free time for positively no money, and that you did it whenever you got the chance--whether that was 10 hours a week or 60.
> 
> Maybe _now_ you wouldn't spend that much time for very little money, but I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that lots of other authors would work this hard and probably do. And if it is so easy, so paint-by-the numbers, to make six figures at this, why are so many people struggling? Can they really all just be doing it wrong, or is it possible that there are simply way too many variables out there for you to be really be sure how or why this worked for you or if it's even repeatable?
> 
> I once wrote for 16 hours a day, three days in a row. 17K a day. I didn't do that for money. I did that because I was having the time of my _life._  (Incidentally, though, that book is basically responsible for my being able to quit my day job. Anyway, that's what I want back--more joy, less rules, less write-this-way-if-you-want-to-succeed. I'm going to go do it my own way now, everyone. Y'all can do whatever you want, including listening to DWS or not.  )


I think it's important for us to realize we don't all have or need to make a six figure salary out of this - AND THAT'S OKAY. My and my husband's financial situation is such that if I just make 2 grand a month at this, I'm good. I'm sure I'll make more than that as I continue on my writing journey, but I don't have to.


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## Dalia Daudelin (Jul 11, 2014)

You certainly don't need to set out to make a million dollars a year at this- but you should be wanting to do things correctly to the best of your ability. Some of what Dean advises is very good to do, but never revising and a few of his other tips fall short. If you write short erotica, you don't really need to revise, but for basically any other genre it really needs at least one good, thorough edit. 

So no, you don't need to be willing to work 60 hours a week at this. I'm certainly not. I love that I can take days or weeks off if I so want and not see sales fall too badly, but that's because I'm doing almost everything else I can to keep eyes on my work consistently- for instance, by posting on Pinterest even on my off days so I get new followers there every day.

Of course, you have to decide what works for you, but never settle for something if you don't think it's working correctly. 

Even if you don't need to make six figures... it certainly wouldn't hurt if it happened all on its own because you're doing everything you can to succeed, would it?


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2014)

Dalia Daudelin said:


> Even if you don't need to make six figures... it certainly wouldn't hurt if it happened all on its own because you're doing everything you can to succeed, would it?


Of course, but fortunately for me, I can enjoy this ride while also doing everything I can to succeed. If I had to worry about making a six figure income, I wouldn't enjoy this, and I wouldn't be doing it.

Stress kills. But fortunately, in my life, I don't have much of it.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

valeriec80 said:


> Oh, I don't believe you for a second! I bet that you were just the same as every other writer starting out, writing in your free time for positively no money, and that you did it whenever you got the chance--whether that was 10 hours a week or 60.
> 
> Maybe _now_ you wouldn't spend that much time for very little money, but I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that lots of other authors would work this hard and probably do. And if it is so easy, so paint-by-the numbers, to make six figures at this, why are so many people struggling? Can they really all just be doing it wrong, or is it possible that there are simply way too many variables out there for you to be really be sure how or why this worked for you or if it's even repeatable?


I quit trad publishing because I wasn't being offered the kind of advances I thought would make it worth my time.

I still WROTE, but I didn't write to publish anything, and I let myself dither over stories for weeks and months to please myself. I didn't finish hardly anything at all because I stopped the second a bit of a story wasn't fun anymore. For myself, alone, I finish almost nothing.

But keep in mind that I have a "day job" of homeschooling mom of three that I CAN'T quit.

I had almost no overlap in my two serials with my readers for the first two months. I'm guessing that I have about a 20-30% overlap now, at most. And despite the Zon's algorithms slapping me down on the second one when it made a mistake and combined editions, I'm still build with the other serial, too. Weirdly, I'm seeing a very different pattern in some ways--for one, it's WAY easier to get people on my mailing list; for the other, it builds bigger BETWEEN releases than on a release. But they're both moving gradually upward.

I looked at all the genres I was interested in and all the stories that I had in my head that were at least moderately commercial, and I picked one that I felt happy in writing stuff that a lot of people in that genre would like. I did actually pick a genre that according to NY publishers is so dead that they aren't accepting any submissions in it. But I felt that there was still a healthy audience out there for me, dead or not.

If I worked 60 hours a week, like I am now, for a year and wasn't making $4.2k a month at the end of it, I'd have no problems quitting again. My husband and I discussed it. I have very specific income goal that make this endeavor worth it for the cost of my time to our family. I realize that this puts me in a privileged position, but the towel is in my hand and would have gotten merrily thrown in if this didn't pan out. I'm not killing myself for less than school teacher pay, after benefits. I'm just not.

I know a lot of people HAVE to write the stories in their heads. I'm fortunate in that I have thousands, and I can pick and choose the ones that I can shape into something fairly mainstream. I've also changed a LOT of my writing style to make it more marketable. And it DOES chafe sometimes, but I'm happier changing my style and subject than I am not selling.

It's also not just money. I write to entertain people, and if no one much wants to be entertained by what I'm writing...ugh. It's not fame. It's that my goal is reaching people. If people aren't reached and aren't moved enough to shell out a couple of bucks for my stories, I don't really care to write them anymore.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I think being able to make ANY money as a full time caregiver is pretty amazing. I can't imagine thinking taking three years to make 50 grand a year is too much time. I don't know. I can barely get my [crap] together enough to make a decent part time, minimum wage income, with one kid in the house. Let alone making a decent middle class income while also staying home with my kid. Maybe I'm totally lazy or something, but I think being able to make money writing fiction while I'm a SAHM is pretty phenomenal. Granted, I'd love to make 50 grand a year, and I hope eventually I will. I believe it's possible. But I don't expect it to happen in the first year. I have NO time away from my kid. My husband is anything but supportive and gone most of the time. It just won't happen right away, and I have to be okay with that.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

My husband is being VERY supportive with his time and effort. It's precisely because I'm not just doing this in my spare time that the money is so important. My husband is willing to support what I determined to be the most likely path I have to making a good income...if it pays back. Otherwise, I couldn't ask him for so much time and work. In groceries and other food alone, this is costing us $100 a week, never mind our time apart and his extra kid and house duties.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

VMた said:


> My husband is being VERY supportive with his time and effort. It's precisely because I'm not just doing this in my spare time that the money is so important. My husband is willing to support what I determined to be the most likely path I have to making a good income...if it pays back. Otherwise, I couldn't ask him for so much time and work. In groceries and other food alone, this is costing us $100 a week, never mind our time apart and his extra kid and house duties.


In my situation, the support simply isn't there. He is completely absorbed in his own thing and expects me to be %100 responsible for everything at home. He's basically useless when it comes to housework or childcare. He's never done any to a degree that would actually take any burden off me. You are lucky to have a husband who takes responsibility for his own house and his own kids. In this day and age, husbands should probably not expect their wives to do everything around the house and with the kids. But, unfortunately, many still do. It would be easier to find writing time if I had a full time job and a long commute than to be a SAHM with a husband like mine. Part of the reason, I want to leave. If I had the money, I'd rather be alone.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

jswww said:


> I'm divorced from a very unsupportive spouse. Being alone is actually much nicer. Even though I still have the kids most of the time, what time he does have them actually gives me more time to myself than I ever had before. And now I don't have anyone rolling their eyes at my choice to have a career as a writer. Divorce was difficult, don't get me wrong, but it was the right decision. My life is so much better now. Unsupportive spouses can make you doubt yourself in ways that should never happen.


Yes. I'm actually pretty sure I will leave when I have the money. He has undiagnosed asperger's, which makes him basically impossible to live with. He really doesn't notice anyone but himself. He never laughs or even responds to me in a meaningful way. I feel half dead most of the time from a lack of emotional reciprocation. We met on the internet and were in a cult at the time, true story. Anyway, I'd like to move back to the west coast with my daughter. My older son lives in California with his dad now, and I'd like to be closer to him. If my daughter's father wants to see her, he can travel. I really can't imagine staying in the midwest for the rest of my life. I hate it here. I REALLY hate it here. My husband is so stuck to his routine, he would never consider moving from this place, even to keep his family.

I just had this revelation about my author career. I was over at Tumblr creating a author page and sharing all these pictures of stuff I'm a fan of when I realized, "[crap], why not just be yourself. Why not publish all your work under one name. You can be a geek and write women's fiction. You can write romance and scifi as the same person. Because you ARE the same person. Be the irate, angsty, geeky, overemotional, b*tch you are. Just be you. It's so much easier and more fun that way."

Weird that I got that from a social media site, but yeah.

That has a little to do with DWS. He says pen names don't matter anymore... lol.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I never auto buy anything. Most people say readers don't even crossover from one series to the next, let alone genres. So I have a hard time seeing why it matters all that much. The thing about pen names is that they are all so much work. If you want to have any real social media presence, multiple pen names will take up all your free time. I have an interest in writing multiple genres. Most of them crossover somewhat. I write new adult contemporary romance with a strong women's fiction element, which crosses over into paranormal romance, which crosses over into urban fantasy, which crosses over into science fiction. I don't think it's a huge stretch. People who can stick to one thing probably will do better than me. But since I tend to be pretty all over the place, sticking with one name is probably the best I can do. I know HM Ward wrote YA paranormal and now writes contemporary NA romance. That's a pretty big leap, but it seemed to work out. All I know is, I just want to be able to just be myself, show my personality and not try to be something I'm not. I can write romance, but I'm also kind of a nerd. I need to be able to embrace that fact.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Yes. I'm actually pretty sure I will leave when I have the money. He has undiagnosed asperger's, which makes him basically impossible to live with.


Mine is very far over on the Asperger's scale. We've worked out how to communicate. He gets very...absorbed, but he cares about me, so he makes the effort.



Kalypsō said:


> In my situation, the support simply isn't there. He is completely absorbed in his own thing and expects me to be %100 responsible for everything at home.


When I'm not working, I am 100% responsible--except for 1-2 hours with the kids. He also vacuums and I do the mowing. He started cleaning the kitchen for 15 minutes a night last year. He had a bad childhood, doesn't want to be like his dad, I've shown him how to interact, blahblahblah.

I studied at self-publishing. We had a semi-formal meeting. (He's big on that.) I presented data about how it could be viable. We talked about expenses and time investment and all the rest. We set deadlines and income goals--which are, in a word, high. If I don't meet them, I don't continue.

This isn't ridiculous. He's away 45 hours a week or more with his job--because it makes money for the family. I should be held to the same standards if I'm getting basically the same arrangement.

At times I do kind of want to scream--"You look stressed. Are you sure you can go out tonight?" Um, and if I don't, I won't write, and then I won't make any money. And part of the reason I'm stressed is because I know I have a short time to make a living. LOL.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Kalypsō said:


> That has a little to do with DWS. He says pen names don't matter anymore... lol.


They may not matter as much for him, though he does ghost-write under a few names he's contractually unable to reveal.

He does have an excellent lecture on pen names which discusses some of the good reasons to use pen names. I don't expect to need one, unless I were to branch out into erotica at some point, but since all of my fiction is within the sf/f wheelhouse to one degree or another along with the handful of things I've had tradpubbed, I'm not really worried about crossover issues. My weird western readers might not want to read my urban fantasies or my sword and sorcery or my space opera, but then again, they might. I don't see a good reason to use a pen name for them. I like Holly Lisle's thoughts on it--rather than a pen name for each genre, make your name the genre.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

VMた said:


> Mine is very far over on the Asperger's scale. We've worked out how to communicate. He gets very...absorbed, but he cares about me, so he makes the effort.
> 
> When I'm not working, I am 100% responsible--except for 1-2 hours with the kids. He also vacuums and I do the mowing. He started cleaning the kitchen for 15 minutes a night last year. He had a bad childhood, doesn't want to be like his dad, I've shown him how to interact, blahblahblah.
> 
> ...


Wow. You continue to impress me. But I think maybe you are a more selfless person than I. Or I'm just a lot more jaded. The fact is, I don't know if my husband loves me. Our communication is impossible. I'd really rather work, at anything, than be home. He's weird about sharing money. Or was for the first three years of our marriage. He's also pretty controlling. Honestly, I think marriage should be far less one sided. I feel I deserve more. Maybe I'm selfish. I don't care anymore. I just want to be happy and I don't think I can be with someone who doesn't emotionally reciprocate or realize I need the same things he needs: ie. money, prestige, respect, growth, a sense of belonging, control of my own life, etc... I also need to FEEL loved. God. I just imagine someone actually loving me. Holy crap! I'm sure he'd like it if I were far more selfless, but I'm getting too old to believe it's worth it. I need more out of life. I just need more.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

JimJohnson said:


> They may not matter as much for him, though he does ghost-write under a few names he's contractually unable to reveal.
> 
> He does have an excellent lecture on pen names which discusses some of the good reasons to use pen names. I don't expect to need one, unless I were to branch out into erotica at some point, but since all of my fiction is within the sf/f wheelhouse to one degree or another along with the handful of things I've had tradpubbed, I'm not really worried about crossover issues. My weird western readers might not want to read my urban fantasies or my sword and sorcery or my space opera, but then again, they might. I don't see a good reason to use a pen name for them. I like Holly Lisle's thoughts on it--rather than a pen name for each genre, make your name the genre.


Make your pen name the genre. I like that. Even though I do write contemporary romance, I feel it does connect to the other genres I enjoy.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

jswww said:


> That kind of stress can't be good for you. Do you find it impacting your creativity? Or does it make it easier to push on through?
> 
> I think you'll make it.


A bump in the road! And I'm happy with my progress, but it's part of why I'm working like mule.



Kalypsō said:


> Wow. You continue to impress me. But I think maybe you are a more selfless person than I. Or I'm just a lot more jaded. The fact is, I don't know if my husband loves me. Our communication is impossible. I'd really rather work, at anything, than be home. He's weird about sharing money. Or was for the first three years of our marriage. He's also pretty controlling. Honestly, I think marriage should be far less one sided. I feel I deserve more. Maybe I'm selfish.


I don't think I'm selfless. It's not fair to ask my husband to take over 60% of the home work forever when I'm not contributing anything material and might not be for a long time. We're a partnership, and if we re-balance, it has to be for a reason.

He's a bit needy *compared to me* but not at all controlling. He's a huge extrovert. I'm a huge introvert. That's probably the hardest thing. He gets hurt when I hide.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

VMた said:


> A bump in the road! And I'm happy with my progress, but it's part of why I'm working like mule.
> 
> I don't think I'm selfless. It's not fair to ask my husband to take over 60% of the home work forever when I'm not contributing anything material and might not be for a long time. We're a partnership, and if we re-balance, it has to be for a reason.
> 
> He's a bit needy *compared to me* but not at all controlling. He's a huge extrovert. I'm a huge introvert. That's probably the hardest thing. He gets hurt when I hide.


Doing 60% of the housework is aces in my book. I guess I didn't quite get that. Well, I think you have a pretty awesome work ethic. But remember, childcare is harder than most jobs. It is. Just because it's unpaid doesn't mean is easy. You deserve to be able to work for money. Housewiving is a bad long term investment.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Doing 60% of the housework is aces in my book. I guess I didn't quite get that. Well, I think you have a pretty awesome work ethic. But remember, childcare is harder than most jobs. It is. Just because it's unpaid doesn't mean is easy. You deserve to be able to work for money. Housewiving is a bad long term investment.


It's an investment in the family through HIS career. So I'm okay with that if that's out arrangement.  I am working...for money. No money, no work. I can't say it's in the least bit unfair! He does childcare in the evenings so I can write.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

VMた said:


> It's an investment in the family through HIS career. So I'm okay with that if that's out arrangement.  I am working...for money. No money, no work. I can't say it's in the least bit unfair! He does childcare in the evenings so I can write.


I'm glad you have that understanding. It's good. I'm happy for you. I wish I were in your position, honestly.  My marriage is really bad, and it's my second one. Investing in his career isn't a smart choice for me in the long run because he has very little commitment to me. He's said and done things that are unacceptable. We just don't have that kind of relationship, so I have to look out for myself more. I don't think I'd ever marry again.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> I'm glad you have that understanding. It's good. I'm happy for you. I wish I were in your position, honestly.  My marriage is really bad, and it's my second one. Investing in his career isn't a smart choice for me in the long run because he has very little commitment to me. He's said and done things that are unacceptable. We just don't have that kind of relationship, so I have to look out for myself more. I don't think I'd ever marry again.


I'm so sorry to hear that!

I won't say there haven't been times, but we're in this together, thankfully.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

I want to add that I passed all this by my husband before posting.   No "dirty laundry."  The situation may sound a little odd to some, but we are a good balance for one another. He's cautious. I rush in. He's methodical. I fly by the seat of my pants. We have a family of five to think about, and when we make decisions, we try to do what's good for all of us. And we sacrifice together. His comments about stress are coming from a place of love and concern. 

I may delete some comments if Kalypso so desires, but I think every family makes different decisions. I'm being given a ton of support, and to merit the financial and physical strain, there has to be enough reward that we can, say, hire housekeeping out and some childcare to reduce the total burden. He has hobbies he's passionate about, and he's very respectful of me in pursuing them. I need to show the same respect. 

And on housework, right now, it's him 60%, me 20%, and not done at all 20%. You don't want to come to my house. Lol


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2014)

VMた said:


> I want to add that I passed all this by my husband before posting.  No "dirty laundry." The situation may sound a little odd to some, but we are a good balance for one another. He's cautious. I rush in. He's methodical. I fly by the seat of my pants. We have a family of five to think about, and when we make decisions, we try to do what's good for all of us. And we sacrifice together. His comments about stress are coming from a place of love and concern.
> 
> I may delete some comments if Kalypso so desires, but I think every family makes different decisions. I'm being given a ton of support, and to merit the financial and physical strain, there has to be enough reward that we can, say, hire housekeeping out and some childcare to reduce the total burden. He has hobbies he's passionate about, and he's very respectful of me in pursuing them. I need to show the same respect.
> 
> And on housework, right now, it's him 60%, me 20%, and not done at all 20%. You don't want to come to my house. Lol


Your sharing some of your family background has helped me to understand you better. In this thread and in other threads, some of your comments about money I found somewhat offensive. But now I understand why *you* need to make a certain amount to continue with this and why you said some of the things you said.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> Your sharing some of your family background has helped me to understand you better. In this thread and in other threads, some of your comments about money I found somewhat offensive. But now I understand why *you* need to make a certain amount to continue with this and why you said some of the things you said.


$50k sounds like a ton. Who couldn't be happy on $50k, right?

But I've got covers, advertising, editing, and the money I'm paying to my brother. So that's $40k left. Okay, still not bad.

Then there's the fact that I'm self-employed--that's $37k after self-employment taxes.

And housekeeping around here (we live in a very, very expensive part of the country) is $150/week. So that's $29k left. And I really need three hours a day of childcare for my youngest to take some of the load off. So that's $21k left.

And then I'm working 60 hours a week, not 40. So that's $7/hr.

And that's less than minimum wage, never mind the fact that I'm taxed at the margin because my income's the second one. And of course charity, which I don't resent, but it does reduce the bottom line by a fair amount.

It sounds greedy until you look at what the numbers shake down to.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

VMた said:


> It's also not just money. I write to entertain people, and if no one much wants to be entertained by what I'm writing...ugh. It's not fame. It's that my goal is reaching people. If people aren't reached and aren't moved enough to shell out a couple of bucks for my stories, I don't really care to write them anymore.


This I totally get. I'm a bit of a people pleaser (you might not be able to tell on the internetz, though, but I have no spine for interpersonal interactions at _all_). I want to make people feel happy. And sometimes, during the months when my sales are really down, I'll get all depressed because no one's reading my books, and what the heck did I write them for if no one wants to read them?

But then they start selling again... And I feel better.

I guess I'm in such a different place than most people on this board, because I'm just now pregnant with my first kid at 33, and the focus of my whole life has been to write full time. It's been my dream since I was a little girl. I've been scribbling in notepads since I learned to make words. It's been the most important thing in the world to me forever. It's been my identity and the only way to measure my worth.

It's actually been refreshing to get pregnant, because it's like the pressure is off somehow. There is something in my life I care about more than my stories and my career. And there have been weeks when I've felt like this was just a job, and that I just needed money from it. At its most stressful, I've even thought that maybe I could quit it. I've asked the universe to please, please, please get me through the first year, so I can nurse at least that long. And then, if it's still not working out, I don't care if I go back to work.

And it's funny, because (duh) the minute that I truly kind of let go trying to force myself into having whatever writing career I thought I should have, writing has gotten about seventy zillion times easier and waay more fun again. Yesterday, I even got up to 6K. I'm not quite back at my 8K self, but I think I might get there.

Anyway, it's been interesting to hear other people's perspectives. (I think we're way off the DWS method now.) But I think if you find your primary joy and raison d'etre in your children and marriage, then of course writing would be primarily about money. But I have lived to write my whole life, and it's most important that it fulfill me. I hope I feel as much about this baby as everyone says I will, because it would be nice to have other sources of fulfillment.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2014)

VMた said:


> It sounds greedy until you look at what the numbers shake down to.


Yes, the way the numbers shake down in your situation I can understand where you're coming from. 



valeriec80 said:


> I hope I feel as much about this baby as everyone says I will, because it would be nice to have other sources of fulfillment.


I have one who graduated from college this and year and another one who is in college. So I can create my schedule easily. However, for you, it's going to be difficult finding time to write with a new baby. If you can accept that, you'll have an easier time adjusting to your new life.

Motherhood is wonderful. So congratulations on your pregnancy!  My husband and my children bring me the most joy.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

I do love writing--for me.  But writing for me never gets off my computer.  LOL.  That's why I have a partial Amarna-set historical Egyptian story and a partial Pompeii-set alternative history fantasy and another historical dealing with a French trapper's widow in the New World in the 1600s and a crazy nonlinear literary colonial romance set during, yes, a massacre and this peculiar dark fantasy in which the heroine is actually a spirit-animal in human form (think Tanith Lee on a bad trip).....and so many others.  Dozens and dozens of stories, some of which are just crazy.    

I've already gone through the do-it-because-I-can't-bear-to-do-anything-else stage.  I wrote my first published book with a newborn baby on my knees.  I did copy edits at my grandmother's deathbed--I read my book aloud instead of Dickens to her when it was my turn to be there.  I had vacations interrupted due to selfish editors.  And the damage and heartbreak and frustration that I went through then at the hands of other people is just too much to repeat.  I can't live like that.  I'll just disappear into my little happy place and scribble occasionally for my own amusement or for my kids, and I won't show it to anyone.

I'm so glad things are turning up for you, Valerie!  Get a sling to snuggle hands-free and a boppy to nurse while working.  

I'm not gloom and doom at all, BTW.  I'm very happy with my progress. I'm doing better than our goalposts.  I'm still sick about the Zon's algorithm hiccup and my emails getting spammed for two releases in a row, but it's just a bump in the road in the end.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

No need to delete anything on my account. It's relief to actually talk about it.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Mcoorlim said:


> This is basically what I'm trying to do, define my own genre that boils down to "what I like to write". In practice this tends to mean mysteries and thrillers with sci fi, fantasy, or horror elements. Since I started by publishing steampunk, that more or less covers all of it right there.


I agree. Even my scifi seems to have a strong women's fiction element. In the last scifi serial I wrote, I had women coming to my blog and Facebook telling me how much they appreciated my stories. Unfortunately, that serial didn't sell all that well and has since been unpublished. But I think female oriented scifi could have a strong audience. In that sense, it wouldn't be that far off from even the contemporary romance I write.

I've already fiddled around with a lot of pen names. It's too easy to abandon them and then they just become like dead people. I think it probably is better to release everything under one umbrella. I've been back and forth about this a million times, but I just had that revelation last night. I don't write under my real name, which I wish I had chosen to do, but that doesn't mean my main pen name can't be _me_. I shouldn't have to be a persona. I think readers would respond better to me if I present myself like a real person with all my complexity. It works better for me anyway. I've never been very good at faking it.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

IT's too hard to juggle pen names.  I'm forcing myself to writing in just one world, but even without that, I could only imagine separating adult (if R) from kid and from erotica.

But you should still brand your covers to the genre, not have one look for all your books.


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## NothingToSeeHere... (Jul 26, 2013)

I do not consent to the new TOS, and do not give my consent by posting and maintaining my membership here.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

MariePinkerton said:


> Erm...I don't think you're allotting enough for taxes. It's not just the self-employment tax, but also income tax. I will be very happy to be wrong on this, though. I just don't want you to get a huge bill next year, plus fines for not paying quarterly taxes this year. In fact, if you haven't already talked to an accountant/CPA about doing quarterlies, I'd make an appointment ASAP.


Actually, I'm single with no dependents, and last year I had about $50K in profits/income, and I ended up owing approximately $16K total to the government between state taxes and federal. She's got three dependents and she's married, so I think it's probably about right.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

MariePinkerton said:


> Erm...I don't think you're allotting enough for taxes. It's not just the self-employment tax, but also income tax. I will be very happy to be wrong on this, though. I just don't want you to get a huge bill next year, plus fines for not paying quarterly taxes this year. In fact, if you haven't already talked to an accountant/CPA about doing quarterlies, I'd make an appointment ASAP.


I wasn't including that because you pay that no matter where you work.  But in the end, after donations would bring my total down to $19k and taxes down to $10k--can't deduct housekeeping or most of the child care. $10k profit for 3000 hours of work. That's $3.33/hr.

Add in the extra $100 per week we're spending on food, gas, clothes, and all the stuff I don't have time to bargain shop for, and that slashes it to $1.67 in profit per hour. I also order a drink at the diner every night--after tip, that's $3, so that's $1.33 in the free and clear for every hour I work.

My taxes are really high because we've already taken every deduction we can.

So. Yeeeeeeaaaaahhhh.

Anyway, I don't need to pay quarterly taxes because I don't have any profit yet.  I've paid all my advertising through Oct., and just did more editor stuff, and then I also ordered a TON of covers. I might even be a little in the red.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Hutchinson said:


> You can get a childcare credit if your household is under 125k for the year (can't remember the exact cutoff, but it's the lower end of six figures before it disappears).
> 
> #notataxaccountantthough


That may be a good boost to put my child in a decent daycare so I can get any work done.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Hutchinson said:


> You can get a childcare credit if your household is under 125k for the year (can't remember the exact cutoff, but it's the lower end of six figures before it disappears).
> 
> #notataxaccountantthough


Not correct.

There is no income limit or phase out for the Child and Dependent Care Credit. You do get a higher credit when your income is lower than $43,000 or so. You must be working, looking for work, in school, or physically unable to care for the child yourself. If married, your spouse must qualify as well. Your dependent must be cared for by a qualified individual or organization. See IRS form 2441 and it's instructions, readily discoverable using the Google, for more information.

This assumes one is a US citizen or resident.

You may be thinking of the Child Tax Credit which does begin to phase out as income rises, but that is not dependent on the parents working.

I am also not a tax accoutant. I am, however, an Enrolled Agent: a federally credentialed tax expert enrolled to practice before the IRS.


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