# Books Butterfly Official Thread - Results, Promotion Information & Member Feedback (MERGED)



## Christine Tate (Feb 24, 2014)

Has anyone had any experience with Books Butterfly and paid books (not free giveaways)?  Just curious what your experience and results were.
Thanks!
Christine


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

***Modified***: the below was from 2015. I've since abandoned Butterfly after a bad experience with them. Others have had more recent bad experiences. I do not endorse them anymore.***

I ran one of the new Books Butterfly paid ads (as in, ads for paid not free books). As the book was the third rather than the first book in the series, they paired it with the first permafree book to increase the likelihood of interest and benefit to me. I chose the $75 guaranteed 75 sales and the book was priced at 2.99, as it seemed to make no sense to me to lose money on the book (for these experimental purposes anyway). Results: 25 extra sales and 150 extra downloads of the permafree on day 1. The extra downloads are a nice bonus, something I'd pay about $15 for anyway. I believe they get 2 days to try to make their 75 target, so we'll see how today goes.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2015)

Thanks for sharing details David.

Just so people are clear - All Fixed Price Slots (like the $75 slot David chose) come with a prorated refund.

So, if you get a $75 slot and see only 50 sales, then we refund you $25.

David, it went out in today's post too. So it should do better today. We send out posts in the afternoon so sales on Day 2 are between 70% to 125% of Day 1.


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## MajesticMonkey (Sep 3, 2013)

I have had good results with them. I liked them very much. I paid $15 and they did better than some other promo sites I paid $200 a pop for.


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## AnonWriter (Dec 12, 2013)

OK, I decided to give Booksbutterfly a try while I'm at $0.99 and a #1 bestseller on Kindle in a YA category. Plus my sales lag during the week so hopefully this'll give my book a boost.

I'm running today and tomorrow. I'll report back when I have numbers, er, IF I have numbers.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Yes they are helpful, but 90% of my my books are adult romance where BB is weakest. I'm waiting for them to get up to snuff on adult titles.


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

I just completed a week-long 99 cent Countdown deal for my YA.  The results were terrible until BooksButterfly kicked in on 3/11 and 3/12.  I had a total of 29 sales over those two days attributable to a BooksButterfly $25 promo.

Prior to that I had 1 sale from a free ReadersInTheKnow promo, no sales from SweetFreeBooks ($5), 7 sales via BargainBooksy ($25), no sales from BettyBookFreak (free), and  3 sales from ManyBooks (free).

So... even though I didn't break even, I'm very happy with the BooksButterfly promo.  I thought Abhi was very fair and upfront with me-- letting me know in advance that YA dystopian is a very small genre for BooksButterfly, and that I might expect only 10 to 20 sales.  I wasn't invoiced until today.

I definitely plan to try BooksButterfly with my other books.


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## Donald Rump (Dec 10, 2013)

Very interesting. Do they take children's books, I wonder?

EDIT: It looks like they do. I wonder what their requirements are. I have several children's picture books that might work for this...


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## Jerri Kay Lincoln (Jun 18, 2011)

What are their requirements?  I couldn't find them anywhere on their site.


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## Donald Rump (Dec 10, 2013)

I'm willing to purchase Books Butterfly's most expensive package ($300) and report the results if they will let us know what the criteria is for children's books. I don't see it anywhere on the site. There's no point in submitting if they don't allow children's picture books or if the minimum page/word count is more in line with a novel.


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## mbroadway (Dec 2, 2010)

I just checked out their website. After a bit a calculating, it seems like it would be a pretty good opportunity, if they're reliable about their refunds. I would love to hear from others who have used this service and which "paid books" package you used.


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## josephfranciscollins (Jul 7, 2014)

Did it earlier in the month--can't particularly recall the date. However, since then, I've sold 173 books for a fifty book promotion. Quite happy and need to figure out how to get it to translate into sales for my other books. 

Joe


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## Lena_Mikado (Mar 12, 2015)

I have submitted my request to them!   Let's see what comes out of it!


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2015)

Hi, I'm from Books Butterfly

1) Donna, thanks for sharing your results. I appreciate it.

2) We're working on a new website so some of the existing website parts aren't done. In terms of requirements it varies a lot. Best is to submit your book and I can give you an idea of what slot would be best. We've seen good results with books with just 1 review and bad results with books we thought were perfect. So we don't want to have too many restrictions at the moment.

At least 1 review - that's important. Ideally 5 or more reviews.

After that I can take a look and let you know what slot would be best.

Please Note: At the moment we don't do novellas, serials (i.e. books split into 3 parts).
We have also temporarily stopped doing erotica.

3) Donald, for Kids' books we have a small audience. I'd expect only 0-10 sales. So we can do a Bronze 10 slot or we can just run it and you can let us know what sales you see.

The larger slots are for Boxed Sets and Series Specials and for our big genres (Mysteries & Thrillers, Romance, Christian, Non-Fiction).

4) MBroadway. Yes, we're very reliable about our slot refunds (when refunds are required). In some cases we email authors to check if we think sales might not have matched the slot (just emailed an author today and then did a $15 refund on a $50 slot). If you prefer we can do a slot where we run it first and you tell us additional sales generated and then we invoice you later.

5) Joe, thanks for sharing the results. Very glad to be able generate good results for you.

6) Lena, I've emailed you. We haven't run Philosophical Chick Lit before so I'm curious to see how it does.

7) In general

a) We only started paid slots Jan 2015, and in time we will figure out a way to make it easier for authors to choose the best slot for their book.

b) We have a new website almost done that will show range of sales (or free book downloads) for each genre and also past results by Genre (so you can see example sales and typical rank changes for each genre). Hopefully in a few weeks it'll be live.

thanks


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## AnonWriter (Dec 12, 2013)

My 99-cent promo went very well. I bought the $25 two-day package. I figure I sold about 25 more books than what I would've without it. So while it wasn't a great ROI money-wise, it was a great ROI in terms of getting a new book by an unknown author into new readers' hands.


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## Julz (Oct 30, 2014)

Emily Wibberley said:


> My 99-cent promo went very well. I bought the $25 two-day package. I figure I sold about 25 more books than what I would've without it. So while it wasn't a great ROI money-wise, it was a great ROI in terms of getting a new book by an unknown author into new readers' hands.


Way to go, Emily!


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## AnonWriter (Dec 12, 2013)

Thanks Julz! #prawnysuccess!!!


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## Michael Murray (Oct 31, 2011)

> Please Note: At the moment we don't do novels, novellas, serials (i.e. books split into 3 parts).


Do you mean you only do novels?


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## mbroadway (Dec 2, 2010)

Michael Murray - I wondered that, too. 

This could have some potential value. I'm going to consider it in the Paid Book slot. I would probably need a bit of advice on choosing the right category. The book I'm considering is a Young Adult, Adventure with a lot of Suspense and in the Thriller-light category. Now how to pick a category for that?

Advice welcome.

If you want to read the blurb on Amazon to get more info before you suggest, it's called Lost in the Bayou by Cornell Deville.


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## Steve Voelker (Feb 27, 2014)

ireaderreview said:


> Please Note: At the moment we don't do novels, novellas, serials (i.e. books split into 3 parts).


How about a complete serial? Like Volumes 1-6, all in one book?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Voelker58 said:


> How about a complete serial? Like Volumes 1-6, all in one book?


I asked about that yesterday privately. Yes, they will, but only after it has reviews and only if it is at least 200 pages.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2015)

1) Thanks for sharing sales numbers Emily. Good to know you got 25 sales.

2) Yes, Michael. We only do novels at the moment. Novellas above 125 pages - perhaps. I'll correct that typo.

3) Michael, that book looks good. YA is one of our smallest genres (list below). So I'd expect 15-30 sales over 2 days. We can do a Bronze 15 slot - $15 for 15+ sales. You can pick any slot and add a note in the Cost Limit field or just email me at [email protected]

Big Genres - Mysteries & Thrillers, Christian, Romance, Non-Fiction.

Medium Genres - Historical Fiction, Adventure, YA Romance, Women's Fiction, Literary & Contemporary

Small Genres - SciFi, Fantasy, Horror, YA

Not Taking - Serials, Erotica

4) Voelker, yes, a complete serial is fine. What Cherise wrote - reviews and 200+ pages.


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## dmburnett (Feb 4, 2011)

Curious what the paranormal romance genre for paid (0.99)? How big/small is the list?


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

I booked them for my Fantasy Romance for a 2 day slot March 21 and 22 ($100 flat rate, they say they'll refund part if it doesn't move 100 copies, so I figured what the heck.)


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

I've got BooksButterfly today and tomorrow, kicking off a weeklong 99 cent countdown deal for The Haircut.  Paid $75.  So far today I've got two sales. Hope things pick up.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2015)

Hi Donna

thanks for sharing.

I see you posted at 10:35 am. Our posts go out in the afternoon to late afternoon. That's why you hadn't seen sales by then.

For your book I have

Sales Rank when post went out: #282,717.

Highest Sales Rank was 14 hours after post went out:

14 hours After: 
(5:40 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #11907 in All Paid 
#73 in Fantasy > Historical

Sales Rank this morning: #12,888.

Sales Rank now: #15,589. It should go up as today's post went out a few hours ago.

Sales are usually 40% on Day 1, 40% on Day 2, 20% on Day 3.

You can let me know what sales you see and if it doesn't hit 75 (the $75 slot guarantees 75 sales) we'll do a prorated refund.

I had to put a note that there's some sex in the book, which I hadn't caught when looking through reviews when taking your book, and that might have lowered sales. Romance with adult content usually gets only 50-60% of sales. It's only when actually doing the post for the day that I noticed there's some sexual content - we actually don't take adult romance except for steamy romance box sets, so my mistake. However, I'll do a prorated refund.

Anyways, here's detailed sales rank changes so far: Please Note: Sales rank lags sales by 2-4 hrs. That's why you see jump only some hours after post went out.

Title:The Haircut: A Love Story 
Author: Donna Callea

Rated: 4.1 stars on 28 reviews. 
Pages: 237 
Price: 0.99 [Drop from 2.99]

Sales Rank Change:

Rank when Mentioned : 
(3:10 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #282717 in All Paid 
Latest Rank : 
(4:40 pm, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #14352 in All Paid 
#90 in Fantasy > Historical

3 minutes After: 
(3:10 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #282717 in All Paid 
4 minutes After: 
(3:10 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #282717 in All Paid 
34 minutes After: 
(3:40 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #282717 in All Paid 
1 hours After: 
(4:42 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #287088 in All Paid 
2 hours After: 
(5:40 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #291228 in All Paid 
3 hours After: 
(6:42 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #293824 in All Paid 
4 hours After: 
(7:40 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #134511 in All Paid 
5 hours After: 
(8:41 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #134511 in All Paid 
6 hours After: 
(9:40 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #30787 in All Paid 
7 hours After: 
(10:42 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #30787 in All Paid 
8 hours After: 
(11:40 pm, Saturday, Apr 4 PST ) #19658 in All Paid 
9 hours After: 
(12:42 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #19299 in All Paid 
10 hours After: 
(1:40 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #15054 in All Paid 
#90 in Fantasy > Historical 
11 hours After: 
(2:42 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #15054 in All Paid 
#90 in Fantasy > Historical 
12 hours After: 
(3:40 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #13378 in All Paid 
#81 in Fantasy > Historical 
13 hours After: 
(4:42 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12091 in All Paid 
#77 in Fantasy > Historical 
14 hours After: 
(5:40 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #11907 in All Paid 
#73 in Fantasy > Historical 
15 hours After: 
(6:42 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12021 in All Paid 
#73 in Fantasy > Historical 
16 hours After: 
(7:40 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12021 in All Paid 
#73 in Fantasy > Historical 
17 hours After: 
(8:41 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12888 in All Paid 
#81 in Fantasy > Historical 
18 hours After: 
(9:40 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12397 in All Paid 
#78 in Fantasy > Historical 
19 hours After: 
(10:41 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12397 in All Paid 
#78 in Fantasy > Historical 
20 hours After: 
(11:40 am, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12531 in All Paid 
#81 in Fantasy > Historical 
21 hours After: 
(12:30 pm, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12112 in All Paid 
#78 in Fantasy > Historical 
21 hours After: 
(12:31 pm, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12112 in All Paid 
#78 in Fantasy > Historical 
21 hours After: 
(12:41 pm, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #12112 in All Paid 
#78 in Fantasy > Historical 
22 hours After: 
(1:40 pm, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #13105 in All Paid 
#80 in Fantasy > Historical 
23 hours After: 
(2:40 pm, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #13105 in All Paid 
#80 in Fantasy > Historical 
1 days After: 
(3:40 pm, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #13230 in All Paid 
#79 in Fantasy > Historical 
1 days After: 
(4:40 pm, Sunday, Apr 5 PST ) #14352 in All Paid 
#90 in Fantasy > Historical


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## Felix R. Savage (Mar 3, 2011)

I can't say enough good things about BooksButterfly. Huge results, best of any promotional site I've tried (note I have never got accepted for Bookbub / ENT / Pixel Of Ink). Friendly, reliable, and they go out of their way to be helpful. FYI, my books are science fiction. YMMV depending on genre.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2015)

Thanks Felix. I appreciate the vote of confidence.

Just a quick note

1) We're strong for SciFi Thrillers etc.

2) We're not strong for SciFi Fantasy Horror in general.

However, all our slots are 'Results or a Prorated refund' so we'll run your book. You can submit and we'll let you know what our best guess is for your book - if we get that or more, then great. If not, we'll do a prorated refund based on actual results you get.


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## KinkyWriter (Mar 17, 2015)

Hey Books Butterfly, 
Can you inform us when or if you'll ever take erotica? Thanks!


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Just chiming in, Abhi is great to work with and he'll tell you flat out if he thinks his promo won't work for you. He also has a  6 month waiting period between promos just like the 'Bub does; which seems like a bummer, but in reality is honest.


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

Even though I didn't get the number of sales expected for my promo 4/4 and 4/5 I'm extremely pleased with Books Butterfly.  The Haircut's ranking, as Abhi noted in a previous post, went up significantly.  I had used Books Butterfly last month for Bristles, and was also very pleased.

Abhi has been very fair and professional throughout.  He responds promptly and seems determined to do the right thing. I've already received a partial refund for the promo.


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## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

How well does Books Butterfly do outside of Amazon? I'm thinking of using it for a book that isn't in KDP Select (either Yseult or Shadow of Stone), but even with guaranteed sales, the ROI could end up being quite low if the book is only earning 35% royalties.


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## Dean F. Wilson (Aug 15, 2014)

I like Abhi's honesty. Most other places wouldn't be as open about what genres don't perform as well.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2015)

This is the Official Books Butterfly Book Promotion Results thread. Authors, please add your results here. We'd appreciate that.
Kindly do not use this thread for anything other than results. You can email us at [email protected] for questions, or you can pm us. For this thread we're trying to limit it to actual results from authors who've run slots with us. Thanks!
*****
Yellow Pages Link: Books Butterfly Book Promotion Service
Update: Coming soon. This page is required first, before creating a Yellow Pages entry.

*****

*** Results & Slots

Results Range for Free Promos: Books Butterfly Free Promotion Results

Free Promos Page: Books Butterfly Free Promotion Slots

Results Range for Paid Promos: Books Butterfly Paid Promotion Results

Paid Promos Page: Books Butterfly Paid Promotions Slots

Results Range for Permafree Promos:  Books Butterfly Permanent Free Promotion Results

PermafreePromos Page: Books Butterfly Permanent Free Promotion Results

*** Reach - Stores, Countries, Where We Promote

Countries We Reach: 70+ Countries We Reach

Stores We Reach: Book Stores Books Butterfly Reaches

Where We Promote: Sites, Lists, Blogs Where We Promote

*** Contact Us

Contact Us Page: Contact Books Butterfly

*****

*** Prorated Refund

We offer a prorated refund. If a slot doesn't perform you get a prorated refund. This takes away all possible downside for you.

Please Note: We are not guaranteeing X amount of Results. We are saying - We give you a slot based on what results we estimate your book will get (this is based on past results). If you do not get the specified results, we do a prorated refund.

Prorated Refund for Free Book Slots: Free Slots Prorated Refund Guarantee

Prorated Refund for Paid Book Slots: Paid Slots Prorated Refund Guarantee

***** thanks


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

I recently booked several ads with you guys. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.


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## C.A. Huggins (Jul 8, 2014)

I was down to try this service. So over the weekend I booked 2 ads on the website, but never received an invoice or an email follow-up. I emailed the contact on the website. Still nothing. I'm not sure if I'm booked or not. 

Is that how it's been for everybody else who's used Books Butterfly?


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## Felix R. Savage (Mar 3, 2011)

C.A. Huggins, BooksButterfly is the real deal. I've always found them very responsive and helpful. Try direct-messaging the OP in this thread -- maybe your mail got lost somehow?


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## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)

C.A. Huggins said:


> I was down to try this service. So over the weekend I booked 2 ads on the website, but never received an invoice or an email follow-up. I emailed the contact on the website. Still nothing. I'm not sure if I'm booked or not.
> 
> Is that how it's been for everybody else who's used Books Butterfly?


CA,

No, Abhi is very responsive, though busy. More than likely the email didn't go through or got misplaced (spam etc.). I've used this service twice with the following results on day 1:

The Black Dragon, Free Promo, April of 2015, 475 downloads.
Ranger Rising, 99 cent Kindle Countdown Deal, July of 2015, 64 downloads.

Email again and if you don't hear from him post here and I'll shoot him and email.

Regards,
SM


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## martyns (May 8, 2014)

ireaderreview said:


> 2) We're not strong for SciFi Fantasy Horror in general.
> 
> However, all our slots are 'Results or a Prorated refund' so we'll run your book. You can submit and we'll let you know what our best guess is for your book - if we get that or more, then great. If not, we'll do a prorated refund based on actual results you get.


How many downloads do you think I can expect for my fantasy books with your various packages?


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

A lot of complaints by fellow KB authors coming in about this service.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,234040.0.html


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## Wired (Jan 10, 2014)

Hi all. Has anyone tried Booksbutterfly recently? Did you get the expected results? Thanks!


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

Define recently?

Three months, I guess, for me. Good results. Always good results with Butterfly. I always use them with Free, and have never tried them at 99 cents. I always run them first in a promo, always get plenty of downloads, and I know I get sell-through too because I've tested a couple of times by running only them on a previously non-performing series.
For me, they're a second tier site - one of the four - and we all know, there's only one site on the top tier.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2016)

Lots of threads on them here


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## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

Got one coming on Tuesday. I'll try to remember to post my results here. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## kevin armstrong (May 6, 2015)

I recently had good results on Booksbutterfly with a free promotion.


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## Kyra Gregory (Aug 9, 2013)

I tried it for the first time a bit over a month ago for my book Ascendant at $0.99. They ended up refunding some of my money because I got a total of about 9 sales.


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## Annie J (Apr 11, 2016)

I had a superb experience with Booksbutterfly, with a few hundred sales across two days on my psychological suspense novel ($0.99 promo). It was not in the last two months but cannot be long prior to that. Four months at most.

I did gain a partial refund but I think the way it works is excellent and please don't think of a refund as an indicator of a failed promo; any extra sales or extra visibility are good.


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## Marcus Richardson (Aug 15, 2014)

Wired said:


> Hi all. Has anyone tried Booksbutterfly recently? Did you get the expected results? Thanks!


I'm using them for the first time this Thursday. I'll try to post my results too!


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## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

I'm stacking a bunch of promos, so I won't actually know which sales came from which promo site.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

A-J said:


> I had a superb experience with Booksbutterfly, with a few hundred sales across two days on my psychological suspense novel ($0.99 promo). It was not in the last two months but cannot be long prior to that. Four months at most.
> 
> I did gain a partial refund but I think the way it works is excellent and please don't think of a refund as an indicator of a failed promo; any extra sales or extra visibility are good.


Exactly. Abhi at Booksbutterfly is as honest and helpful a person as I've dealt with, and one of the most knowledgeable people in the industry today. He's diligent about getting results, and quick to offer refunds if the book gets less downloads than he expected. A refund isn't a failed promo, you're right. Most sites wouldn't give you that refund.

And if a Butterfly promo didn't succeed, it's a good indication the cover or blurb (or Look Inside) isn't doing its job - which is valuable data.


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## locker17 (Apr 20, 2012)

How are they on YA? I couldn't find any info about YA blogs on their site, yet they had something called preppers? I'm not even sure what that is. I am getting ready to put out more books but mine don't seem to fit into certain niches. They are mostly music humor YA and NA with a touch of historical fiction. (If you consider the 60's and the 90's history) My next one is more NA than YA but it is a romance so maybe it will actually fit into one of these categories. 

I have very limited funds and can't throw money at the wall to see what sticks, but I am tired of making no sales. When my first book came out I didn't put it into the Kindle freebie program but I probably will with the new ones. I dabbled in promos and stuff but all I got was a smattering of views and a refund from someone on fiverr. Boy did that help my self-esteem. Not.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2016)

I'm running a $250 month long slot currently. I don't think I can post results because it's an every day push and I haven't discounted. It's just to raise my book awareness as part of an ongoing campaign. I have other promotions running alongside this one so will more likely get little spikes along the way.


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## BookishDreams (Apr 12, 2016)

I had a promo with them a couple of months ago (paid), which did really well. I have another one lined up in August (free), so I'll see how that one turns out  

But so far, I can only give my highest recommendation for the site. They really do deliver sales, and quite a lot of them at that


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## BookishDreams (Apr 12, 2016)

karenharley said:


> Thanks, GajaJKos.
> 
> What I don't understand is how folks decide on the package. Number of subscribers doesn't reveal how many are readers of the specific genre. How the heck do I pick one?


I compare if the higher price is worth the additional number of subscribers to me at that time. There is no definite way to know how many of them are a fit for your genre, that's true, so I tend to follow my gut. Usually, I go for one of the middle-priced options: you get good exposure, however, if there _aren't_ that many subscribers looking for the genre you're writing in, you don't lose _that_ much money.

That being said, unless you write for a really small niche, you should do well


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## Moticom (Jun 29, 2016)

I'd never heard of Booksbutterfly before. It's good to know that there are so many promotion options out there.


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## Melita Joy (Jun 9, 2016)

Hi. 
I have a promo running on the 18th and 19th of this month with them. However, I'm also doing some simultaneous promos. I believe they have a tracking system so I'll let you know how it goes.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

karenharley said:


> Thanks, GajaJKos.
> 
> What I don't understand is how folks decide on the package. Number of subscribers doesn't reveal how many are readers of the specific genre. How the heck do I pick one?


Just choose a package you think might be right, for the amount of money you want to spend.

Whenever I use Butterfly, I choose what I think best - then Abhi, the proprietor, either goes with what I chose OR emails back and tells me something like, for example: "Unlikely to achieve 100 sales in that genre. Expect maybe 50, so have moved you to less expensive promo."

He's very knowledgeable and has a good idea how each book will do. He prefers to get it right to begin with, so sometimes moves me to a cheaper package, or very occasionally to a more expensive one (after checking with me, of course). And if he overestimates sales/downloads, he always gives a pro rata refund. But mostly he gets it right in the first place.

Also, if he thinks he can't get you many sales/downloads, he either doesn't take the book at all, or offers a freebie to test it. At least he did that with me once, with a book in a genre he doesn't usually promote. It made a few sales, BTW. And he HAS knocked my books back sometimes - it's never personal, he just knows what he can sell.

So just choose whichever package you can afford or want to try, and he'll downgrade it and charge you less if necessary. He's very good to work with that way.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

karenharley said:


> Thanks very much, Melita, GajaJkos, and TellNotShow. Look forward to hearing about your results, Melita.
> 
> TellNotShow, I think I saw from another thread that you use them for free promos only, and only on the first day? If that's true...here's the deal. I'm planning out my first paid $.99 promo. It's scary 'cause we're livin' on the edge here. I'd be using Booksbutterfly in conjunction with other promos, and not on the first day. Any notion of whether I'd regret it horribly?


I used to put Butterfly at the start so I knew exactly how many downloads it was responsible for. I quickly discovered that you always get what you pay for there, so now I'm confident to use their service anytime during the week I stack promos. I mean, I try for the start, as Butterfly gives a great start, but if they can't fit me in until later I'm still happy.

That said, I never used them myself for a 99 cent promo. (I have friends who have, and were happy.) I much prefer free over 99 cents, except for standalone books. Even then, I'm not convinced. For me, free is the best price for new readers to taste the books, and $2.99 up is the price after that. I just don't like 99 cents. Whenever I buy books for 99 cents, I tend not to read them - perhaps I value them less than free ones for some reason. Anyway, back to subject&#8230;

Apart from Bookbub - and of course, always depending on other factors, like genre and previous platform, whether or not in KU etcetera - I find that most 99 cent promo loses money on the day, then makes the money back in the days that follow. The more decent sites you stack, the better the return. If you're using most of, say, BargainBooksy, BookSends, ENT, RobinReads, BooksButterfly, and a few others that reliably get a few sales each and cost only a few dollars, you should get to the end of it not TOO many dollars down on your total investment, and when your book goes back to full price, you'll be ranked high enough for long enough to make money on the whole deal. Plus get reviews, mailing list signups, a few true fans, and maybe even stick at a decent ranking. That's where I aim when I plan out a promo. I generally run as strong a round of promo as I can, and if I'm lucky, that might get me enough sales and consistent ranking and good reviews that, a few months later, I get to add Bookbub to the list. Even if you only break even financially, you're well ahead in every other way.

If you're wide, Butterfly will help with more than just Amazon too. Does for me anyway.

As for whether you'll "regret it horribly" - I can't say. If you have, say, a bad cover, or a blurb that's wrong for your book, then Yes, probably. But I'm assuming your book is good, your cover and blurb are as genre-focused as you can get them, you have links to the next book in the series or a mailing list signup and review request right at the end of your book. If that's all so, you're very unlikely to regret your promo - especially the bits of it from any of the sites I mentioned.

I do know what you would regret horribly though. Not giving your book every chance. If you're confident in your book and the face it shows the world, go as big as you can afford. Then next time, you can hopefully afford to go a bit bigger, and keep going bigger each time. I know I didn't give you a simple answer, but I hope this helps anyway.


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## Aderyn Wood (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm guessing they're not the best promo site for Fantasy genres as it's not mentioned there. Any Fantasy authors had positive results with them?


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## BookishDreams (Apr 12, 2016)

Aderyn Wood said:


> I'm guessing they're not the best promo site for Fantasy genres as it's not mentioned there. Any Fantasy authors had positive results with them?


Mine is UF with a PNR subplot, but it did get great results.


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

Wondering if anyone would share their experience with Books Butterfly??


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Haven't used it yet, but there's a recent thread about it .

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,239678.msg3344392.html


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

David J Normoyle said:


> Haven't used it yet, but there's a recent thread about it .
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,239678.msg3344392.html


Thanks -- I missed that thread.


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## Sara C (Apr 30, 2014)

Aderyn Wood said:


> I'm guessing they're not the best promo site for Fantasy genres as it's not mentioned there. Any Fantasy authors had positive results with them?


Neither my UF (non pnr), nor my YA Fantasy did well there.


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## SandraMiller (May 10, 2011)

I've used them for Music Mage (fantasy), on a free promo. They did respectably well with Amazon (enough that I have another next week) but the real bonus in using them was that I saw a boost at iTunes. I've tried all kinds of venues, and hardly anybody seems to have an effect on iTunes. I suppose it could be coincidental, but I put them on my keeper list--anybody who can boost on stores other than Amazon is a winner to me.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I used them on a 99-cent box set with a naked chested demon on the front ... they were the only thing that really moved that set. Also, after BookBub I think they're the best on "other vendors."

I used them during my USA Today run for my own box set, but I was running so much at the time I don't know what was the Butterfly and what was other things. 

I've also used them on my single freebie ... I think one time my results were underwhelming, but it wasn't by that much. It could have been just "summer."

One thing you should know about Butterfly is that it works over several days. You really need to book at the beginning of your promo or you won't get the full boost. Also, they are really good on the other vendors, so if you're only in KU you might not see as good results.


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## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

TellNotShow said:


> I used to put Butterfly at the start so I knew exactly how many downloads it was responsible for.


I'm hearing things like this a lot, and I don't know how someone would know. Is there something I'm missing?

I can understand "I usually sell ten per day, had no other promos near the date, and sold thirty on that day," but can you know exactly how many DLs an ad is responsible for?

Also, I can see a tripling of sales on a given day even without promos.

Genuinely curious.


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## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

TromboneAl said:


> Got one coming on Tuesday. I'll try to remember to post my results here.


As promised, here are the results:










Also, during that week, each day I sent out announcement emails to 200 subscribers (that is, I broke my list into 200-person chunks).

"UN99" means a promo for a 99-cent _The Universe Next Door_. An "x" indicates a promo that was turned down.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

TromboneAl said:


> I'm hearing things like this a lot, and I don't know how someone would know. Is there something I'm missing?
> 
> I can understand "I usually sell ten per day, had no other promos near the date, and sold thirty on that day," but can you know exactly how many DLs an ad is responsible for?
> 
> ...


Dear Genuinely Curious,

Perhaps your curiosity is leading you in the direction of...

Sorry, Al, couldn't help myself, I always wanted to be an Agony Aunt...

Don't know how others know, but for me, my books follow very consistent patterns of sales or downloads. I NEVER get a tripling of sales or downloads on any book without promo. 
With Butterfly, I've only used them for free books, and the first few times I tried them, it was with books that had consistent free downloads. One book was getting 30 to 40 downloads a day, one was getting hundreds, one was getting some impressive zeroes and ones as if a computer programmer was playing some sort of meta programming joke on me. 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, really? All three books had lots of downloads on their first Butterfly day, and quite a few the day after - more than usually happens from just the commensurate rise in ranking or occasional straggler. (Apparently Butterfly has many small sites and spreads promo over two days, but most is the first day. Seems about right.)

And as others have noted, the great part was that every book had good downloads on retailers other than Amazon. I would consider that to have been a huge help in being where I am now, at close to 50/50 income between Amazon and Other Retailers. (Booksy and ENT seem helpful with this too, in that order.)

BTW, about that "very consistent pattern" I mentioned - I'm not a blockbuster author with stellar sales. I'm solid midlist. And the "pattern" of my sales is always DOWN. At least until I get to what I call my Base Level, then it stays there. So, I run promo - usually stacking 8 to 10 sites over a week, but sometimes only one (Bookbub) or three (Booksy, Butterfly, Booksends). Downloads, then sales, explode to high levels. Then they consistently dwindle, a downward drift over, say, 4 to 10 weeks, then settle along a consistent line. (Of course, a new release raises sales of all books in that series, not quite as high as a decent promo does, because the release of book six reminds people they were up to book three or whatever, and they start reading my series again.)

So, re working out sales or downloads attributable to a certain site, if a book is getting hundreds of downloads, numbers are less exact, but I work it out by the difference in the pattern. The pattern may be (for simpicity) 450, 400, 350, 300 (and of course, there's a % variation to this, so in reality it may be 445, 406, 342, 304, but the pattern always roughly works out, and it ALWAYS falls until it reaches a baseline). Any variation in the pattern is attributable to some site picking up the book without me knowing until later. Yay, free spike!
Then you run a promo and have 1000 downloads, well, I'd say that without the promo, I was due to drop to 250 downloads that day, so the ad got me 750. 
Of course, that's a book that's not been free long, when you get lots of downloads even without advertising. But later, most of my Book Ones settle around 30 to 40 a day. It's like, 36, 31, 39, 28, 36, 34. So it's very easy to know what a promo does from there. And zero's even easier, and rather exact, haha - it's like, 0, 0, 0, 0, 86 from a BKnights, 35 from increased ranking, 21 from increased ranking, 12, 7, 4, 2, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1200 from Freebooksy, 540, 320, 270, 225, etc.

Of course, it's harder with paid books than freebies, because the numbers are smaller. But for me, permafree book one then 2.99+ for other books is still working much better than 99 cent sales, so I would only do 99 cents if I was going to try a USA Today run. I probably should, but I'm happy with how things are now. Still, we're due for an Amazon algorithm change, right? I'll panic then, with everyone else.

Anyway, Al, I hope this helps. I gotta stop writing these long answers and go write some books!

PS: From your chart, it looks like Butterfly won this particular battle. Although I HAVE noticed, whoever goes first tends to have an advantage, as some readers are subscribed to several lists. Although I think Butterfly's model is different somehow, with the many small sites instead of one large one, so it seems slightly less susceptible to being later in a promo list, I think.
Then again, your data may be completely different, because if you emailed 200 of your own list each day, perhaps you broke that up into better parts of your list on certain days, and that could have made a big difference. (It's a great way of doing it, I think - I do that too with new releases now.) Keep rockin' that trombone, Al!


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## NJTanger (Aug 26, 2016)

I just ran a free promo with them and landed the #1 spot in all three of my book's categories. It was a huge success. I heard some bad press about these guys, but most of it seemed to be from people with no real knowledge leveraging unsubstantiated claims. I was more than happy with how my promo worked out. 

I listed the first book in my YA SF series, CHIMERA by N.J. Tanger.


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## Darius Brasher (Feb 6, 2015)

I ran a 99 cent promo with them recently and I was pleased with the results. I will definitely use them again.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## whistlelock (Jun 30, 2015)

Yep.  Responsive staff. Got 20ish sales for a 99 cent novella.  They're on the list to be used again.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I like them. They are very knowledgeable about the industry and they know their readers. I've asked for promos in the past, they've looked at my books, and said, "No, you'll need to select the cheaper option." 

People say "how can they promise?" Well they don't promise, they estimate and then give a refund if a promo doesn't work out. They only allow a title to be promoted every six months, which again, I think shows they're serious.

They're second to BookBub on Nook, iBooks, and Kobo ... a distant second, but still.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Welcome to the KB Writers Cafe! Sorry I missed giving you the official welcome back in April. [br][br]You're welcome to promote your business and website here in the Writers' Cafe![br][br]Now that you have an official thread, you'll want to add your listing to our Yellow Pages Listing, found here:[br]http://www.kboards.com/yp/[br][br]The listing is free to KB members and is completely self-service; you can add and edit your listing from the page. More information on our Yellow Pages listing can be found here.[br][br]In your thread here, we ask that the same basic rules be followed as we have for authors in the Book Bazaar: you may have this one thread about your service and must post to it rather than start a new thread each time. New threads about the service wil be removed. Please bookmark this thread so that you can find it again to post to. And, you may not make back-to-back posts to the thread within seven days. If someone responds (such as this post), you may reply but otherwise must wait seven days, thanks![br][br]Note that members may provide civil and honest feedback about your service to this thread, and you may respond in a civil manner. Disputes between you and clients should be handled off site.[br][br]Betsy[br]KBoards Moderator [br][br]Note that this welcome does not constitute an endorsement or vetting of a service by KBoards. Members should do due diligence when considering using a service, for example, by asking KB members for feedback and doing an Internet search such as "service provider name" complaints.


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## MarkMac (Oct 21, 2016)

I bought Books Butterfly's most expensive promo for one book and I'm a bit nervous. This is my first book and my first time doing this kind of thing. I haven't heard anything back from them, other than a copy of my PayPal invoice to 7 Dragons Inc. How will I know if they even run the promo? I haven't seen a result in my sales figures, although it's possible that they ran it and my book just sucks and no one wants to buy it. I contacted them through their site and have not received a reply to that, either. 

Anyone familiar with how they normally work? Right now, I'm thinking of claiming my money back through PayPal if I don't see something from them by Monday.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

When did you submit your book?


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

Did you sign up to receive their emails (you should see your book listed)? 

Did you search their site to see if your book was featured? 

Check their FB page?

What date was your promo supposed to run?


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

What date did you apply for?

If you haven't had any increase in sales I'll assume your promo hasn't happened yet. But if that date has passed, email them and request a refund. I've never had to ask him for a refund, as Butterfly always gets me lots of downloads - that said, I've only ever used them to promote free books. But he is very knowledgeable, and tracks rankings very closely (by the hour) and has always sent me that information when I've used Butterfly.

If your sales didn't change and you haven't heard from him, I'm guessing your promo hasn't run yet. But really, you should email him and ask. You SHOULD know WHEN your promo is going to run. Gives you a day to obsessively watch sales, which is one of the great pleasures of being a new author, haha. 

And don't accuse yourself of having written and published a sucky book, just because it doesn't sell when it has promo here or there or wherever. Some promo sites don't suit some books. Some days books don't sell. (For instance, who wants to promo their book on Election Day?!?) And if it's not selling, it's more likely because of the blurb or the cover or the fact that you didn't discount it for promo. (People expect a bargain during a promo.) There will be enough moments of self-doubt to accuse yourself of having written sucky books without doing it on promo day. Seriously. I know. I write plenty of sucky books. And hopefully, so will you.


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## Jerri Kay Lincoln (Jun 18, 2011)

You'll know when they run your promo.  I've always had great luck with Books Butterfly.  Tons of sales.


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## thewords (Sep 8, 2016)

Mark, you are not the only one with that complaint. I didn't see anything with them. Before I had sales w/o any promotions. Oddly, the week with their promotion, I had nothing. I thought surely I would get one sale, being that I got more than that w/o any promotion.

I had to keep emailing them before they would respond. When he finally did, he threw some rankings at me, which were not mine. I asked for further proof, and he sent me links to that convoluted and congested web page that looks like a hot mess. 

And...

I didn't see my book! 

I clicked on other people's book, which leads to Amazon. What type of promo is that? You list a heading of 99cents and then a bunch of titles that link to Zon? 

Heck, anyone can go to Amazon and search for books at that price.

Later for that.

My book is picking up on its own via KU. If I were you, I would get my money back.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

thewords said:


> Mark, you are not the only one with that complaint. I didn't see anything with them. Before I had sales w/o any promotions. Oddly, the week with their promotion, I had nothing. I thought surely I would get one sale, being that I got more than that w/o any promotion.


I'm noticing a pattern. Established authors who've been using BB for a while report great results. New authors report crickets, and surely it must be something on their end because they're new and 'untested' their voices are drowned out by the veterans who keep getting great results. In my case, I know for sure it wasn't the book's fault. I got 83 sales from Bargain Booksy and OHFB, and 80ish from Robin Reads as well. Crickets from BB. There was another brand new author a month or two ago (forgot the name / link) who reported 2 sales from BB and much better results from other services.

I suspect that when you're a new author, BB will take your money and do absolutely nothing for you. After all, the veterans will keep reporting it as a great service, so people keep using it.



TellNotShow said:


> But he is very knowledgeable, and tracks rankings very closely (by the hour) and has always sent me that information when I've used Butterfly.


Another indicator that BB might be playing favorites. I certainly never heard anything from them after the initial confirmation.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

The problem with BooksButterfly is they rely on tracking ranks. If you have a couple of promos lined up they piggyback off the other advertisers results.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Many people report good success with BooksButterfly. That is not my experience and I won't use them again. As for rude and non-responsive, I would agree.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

AliceW said:


> The problem with BooksButterfly is they rely on tracking ranks. If you have a couple of promos lined up they piggyback off the other advertisers results.


Exactly. And definitely extremely rude. I've heard that some ppl got good results with them, not many though.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

brkingsolver said:


> As for rude and non-responsive, I would agree.





juliatheswede said:


> And definitely extremely rude.


In the interest of balance, I've interacted with Abhishek on several occasions and have always found him to be cordial.


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## MarkMac (Oct 21, 2016)

Thanks for the replies, everyone! Abhishek got back to me just now with a plan for the promo, so it's all good. His email was congenial, with no hint of rudeness. It was short and to the point, but I don't need his life story; I just want to know what's happening with my book.

I was once scammed through eBay/PayPal for $2500, so now I get a little twitchy if vendors don't communicate promptly. My nervousness in this thread was not necessarily a reflection of BooksButterfly's business practices as much as from my own past experiences. I'm glad I sat tight for a few more days. He was probably just busy.



ebbrown said:



> When did you submit your book?


On the 19th. It wasn't too long before I created this thread, but the fact that I hadn't heard back and that I'm totally new to this moved me to ask others what their experiences have been.



SA_Soule said:


> Did you sign up to receive their emails (you should see your book listed)?
> 
> Did you search their site to see if your book was featured?
> 
> Check their FB page?


Uh, no. I confess that I did none of those things! I have since subscribed to his email list.



TellNotShow said:


> What date did you apply for?
> 
> If you haven't had any increase in sales I'll assume your promo hasn't happened yet. But if that date has passed, email them and request a refund. I've never had to ask him for a refund, as Butterfly always gets me lots of downloads - that said, I've only ever used them to promote free books. But he is very knowledgeable, and tracks rankings very closely (by the hour) and has always sent me that information when I've used Butterfly.
> 
> If your sales didn't change and you haven't heard from him, I'm guessing your promo hasn't run yet. But really, you should email him and ask. You SHOULD know WHEN your promo is going to run. Gives you a day to obsessively watch sales, which is one of the great pleasures of being a new author, haha.


I had asked for a date that was pretty much right away. I wasn't sure if that was possible, but the website wasn't clear about what dates were available (most promo sites I've seen are clear about this up front). I did email him, but didn't hear back for a couple days. That's when I started this thread. Perhaps I was overly paranoid!



TellNotShow]And don't accuse yourself of having written and published a sucky book said:


> You'll know when they run your promo. I've always had great luck with Books Butterfly. Tons of sales.


Good to know!



thewords said:


> Mark, you are not the only one with that complaint. I didn't see anything with them. Before I had sales w/o any promotions. Oddly, the week with their promotion, I had nothing. I thought surely I would get one sale, being that I got more than that w/o any promotion.
> 
> I had to keep emailing them before they would respond. When he finally did, he threw some rankings at me, which were not mine. I asked for further proof, and he sent me links to that convoluted and congested web page that looks like a hot mess.
> 
> ...


Well, that sucks. Sorry to hear it. It seems the good reports outweigh the negative though, so I'm hopeful for my own book.



C. Rysalis said:


> I suspect that when you're a new author, BB will take your money and do absolutely nothing for you. After all, the veterans will keep reporting it as a great service, so people keep using it.
> 
> Another indicator that BB might be playing favorites. I certainly never heard anything from them after the initial confirmation.


I hope that's not the case! I wouldn't want to assume anything at this point. I'll keep an eye on my sales. I've also subscribed to his newsletter. Hopefully, there's another reason behind your issue that's not as nefarious.



AliceW said:


> The problem with BooksButterfly is they rely on tracking ranks. If you have a couple of promos lined up they piggyback off the other advertisers results.


Hmm. Yes, that could be an issue if you want a refund for an under-performing promo.



brkingsolver said:


> Many people report good success with BooksButterfly. That is not my experience and I won't use them again. As for rude and non-responsive, I would agree.


 



juliatheswede said:


> Exactly. And definitely extremely rude. I've heard that some ppl got good results with them, not many though.


That is a shame.



Anarchist said:


> In the interest of balance, I've interacted with Abhishek on several occasions and have always found him to be cordial.


Good to hear. I would have liked a faster response, but the email I did receive was totally fine in tone. At this point I'm optimistic and have no grudge.


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## tombielawski (Nov 25, 2011)

I paid for a promo on 11/3. I selected 11/5 for my promo date. I emailed Abhi once per day since 11/3. I have had NO response. My promo did NOT run. I am now communicating with PayPal to dispute the payment. 

I used them once in the past and had a similar problem. After a week Abhi made the situation right. Now I see that this seems to be a trend with Books Butterfly. I am very unhappy and I hope I can get my money back. Even if Ahbi returns my email, I may still go forward with a refund. Fingers crossed.


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## KatherineBogle (May 30, 2016)

Jeez, I would have been SO concerned too! It's unnerving not to have any communication when money is involved. I have my first Books Butterfly promotion running from the 9th-12th, and I'm REALLY hoping none of this happens :S I'm trying to find where I can sign up to their newsletter at the moment as well so I'll be notified they've sent it out, but can't seem to find it.

Would someone have the link to their newsletter sign up?


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## tombielawski (Nov 25, 2011)

The newsletter signup is at the bottom of http://www.booksbutterfly.com/ .


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## KatherineBogle (May 30, 2016)

tombielawski said:


> The newsletter signup is at the bottom of http://www.booksbutterfly.com/ .


Isn't that one more for authors though? Not so much for the readers list who'd be getting the book deals?


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## tombielawski (Nov 25, 2011)

Good question. I assumed it was for readers, but it is not clear.


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## KatherineBogle (May 30, 2016)

Dang. Well I signed up for that one anyone. I'll see what else I can find!


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## Raquel Lyon (Mar 3, 2012)

brkingsolver said:


> Many people report good success with BooksButterfly. That is not my experience and I won't use them again. As for rude and non-responsive, I would agree.


Ditto.


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## tombielawski (Nov 25, 2011)

Do they have a facebook or twitter page?


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## tombielawski (Nov 25, 2011)

Update:

Abhi finally reached me. He agreed to a refund, although he said I should have just kept waiting. Apparently, he does not think it possible to answer emails within a day or two. Weekends do not count. In any case, we have agreed to part company. 

The following services have provided me with good results and always answer email within one day, usually the same day: Book Uplift, Book Sends, Freebooksy, Fussy Librarian, Ebooksoda. 

I hope others have a better experience with Books Butterfly and that they make you a ton of money. Best of luck everyone.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

tombielawski said:


> Update:
> 
> Abhi finally reached me. He agreed to a refund, although he said I should have just kept waiting. Apparently, he does not think it possible to answer emails within a day or two. Weekends do not count. In any case, we have agreed to part company.
> 
> ...


Your experience seems to be quite common. And it reflects what I used to do when I first started using promo sites to advertise books. It's a mistake that's easily fixed, and you'll make more money when you fix it.

What you did was go to a website, choose a promo, pay your money, and request a date that was two days away. Then when you didn't immediately hear back from the promo site, and the day passed, you freaked out, ran to KBoards, told everyone the promo site doesn't answer your emails and you might have to request a refund through Paypal, etcetera.

Here's the thing. There is NO promo site that can get you great results AND take a booking for two days away. 
Seriously.
Robin Reads is great. Their next available date for Paid Romance is Christmas Day. That's what, seven weeks away? And for Free Romance, New Years Day, about a week after that! Freebooksy, I usually have to book about two weeks out. ENT are wonderful, but sometimes they never even let me know that I didn't get a promo, and other times they have taken two weeks before emailing back to say I got one - which is fine. Not perfect, not even ideal - but fine, because they get results for me. Most sites I bother to use have a two to four week wait, or close to it anyway.
The sites that are worth it CANNOT be booked for two days away.
And as for someone not emailing you back immediately, if that was the criteria for getting us results, we wouldn't use Bookbub. They take several days at least before letting us know if we're getting a promo, and when we do, it's usually two to four weeks from then.

It was suggested further upthread that I, and some other people, receive special treatment from Abhi. Well, I recently emailed Abhi to ask how far ahead I'd currently need to book promo. (I haven't run much in a while, and have plans for December/January.) Now, I DO have a great working relationship with Abhi. He's taught me a lot, I've made plenty of money by using Butterfly, and I expected to hear back from him within a couple of days or so. It took five days this tim. I didn't panic or think he was ignoring me. I expected he must be busy. When he replied to me, he told me that some genres are booked out four or five weeks in advance at the moment. But that for some genres, spots were available sooner. (My genres were the four or five week ones, of course!) Just making this point - he offers no special treatment to anyone. If he did, I think I'd probably get it, I'm a valued customer, and I go the extra mile by sharing data with him (the same sort of data Bookbub always asks us for after a promo).

Anyway, Tombielawski, and anyone else who's bothered to read this ramble. Here's my opinion, and my advice if you want it - take it or leave it.
Don't try to book promo two days ahead - book it a month or more in advance, and build a promo that'll take you high up into some Top 100s. 
Don't confuse being emailed back the same day with getting results - some of those sites you listed aren't worth using, and if I want someone to email me back within a day I'll email my friends and call them all fat and ugly.
The promo sites that get the best results are MOSTLY those that cost $50 or more - yes, there are a (very) few genre specific ones that cost less, but $50, for me, has been a great benchmark (except for Riffle and Genre Pulse, which cost close to that and got me nothing. And there are, no doubt, some scammy ones that cost a lot. But most are good. A one-site test the first time you use it is a good idea). 
Look, great customer service is nice, but great results are better. Abhi has never been rude to me, but even if he was, I'd use his service, because it WORKS. Freebooksy are wonderful, and I swear by them, but they ruined a promo of mine once by not running a book the day they should have, then didn't answer my emails for three days (they were going into their Junk folder!) - when I say ruined a promo, in fact, I made more money, because they were just in time to run the book at the $2.99 part of the countdown, and it sold 55 copies at that price, so that was great! Point though, is that even somewhere with great customer service like Freebooksy can make mistakes, be slow to respond, whatever - but if they get you results, THAT'S the benchmark.
If you want prompt responses to emails, hire someone who does that well - if you want to sell books, hire someone who'll make that happen.
And don't EVER think you'll be able to book real promo two days away. The places that get results are BUSY.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

OK, Tom. You mentioned getting good results from a site called Book Uplift.
Always on the lookout for new sites that might help me sell books, I acted on your recommendation and looked up their website. Slick, professional looking - as most of these sites now are, whether they're good or bad. Expensive too - packages at $97, $177, and $247 - I prefer expensive, as it usually means good results can be expected. 
But it troubled me that I'd never heard of it. I pretty much stay on top of these things.
No info here on KBoards about it either, and that's extremely troubling, as some of the smartest marketers in the business are here, freely sharing information.
So I checked their Alexa Ranking. It was so poor it doesn't have one. But Alexa did show that two sites link to it - blackhatworld dot com and warriorforum dot com. (Ewww. I actually typed the web addresses, then thought, "Yuck, we don't want that filth around here," so I went back and modified them by typing dot as a word.)

from everything I've ever heard, those two sites Book Uplift advertises on are mostly frequented by scammers.
I did click on the Alexa links to the two sites and read the Book Uplift ads there - they claim to be genuine, advertising to real readers, and their guarantees are pro rata like Books Butterfly's are. And they claim to have no click-farms or bots involved. 
So, apart from their dubious two, and only two, incoming links (according to Alexa) being to the two scammiest possible places on the internet, they MIGHT be genuine.
So, if their results are genuine, and they have access to the MILLION real readers they claim to, I'm hoping you'll enlighten us as to how your advertising with them went. Was there good sell-through to later books in the series of the one you advertised there? Did it go to the top 10, top 20, or top 50 in the Kindle store, as they claim ALL advertised books will? Do you believe it's a genuine site advertising to genuine readers?

I note that Book Uplift offers these results with just four days notice.

They CLAIM to be working with Freebooksy, Books Gorilla, Booksends, Bookbub and others to get these amazing results. But it seems to me that only Bookbub has enough readers to genuinely get these results. (I've stacked a LOT of promo sites at once, spent a ridiculous amount of money on that, and found it impossible to achieve top 10 without Bookbub.) And Bookbub don't just give out spots to other promo sites to use willy nilly to anyone who comes along four days before - with any amount of money. They just don't. And even if they did, the "15,000 GUARANTEED DOWNLOADS, Top 10 FREE GUARANTEED" is only $247, which is considerably cheaper than Bookbub just charged me to get less downloads than that. So now I'm wondering, how would Book Uplift genuinely do what they claim to?

Pretty sure I'm not the only one who'd like to hear about your experience with Book Uplift - because if it's genuine, it'd be an absolute game-changer, and many of us would start using it. And if it's not, some of us would warn you (and others) against using it - because it sounds like a scammy site that will get anyone who uses it into neck-deep trouble with Amazon. Or worse.
So. Care to enlighten us about your experience using Book Uplift? (Perhaps not right here - a new post would be best, so everyone sees it.)

_Edited for tone. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

For the record, I booked a month in advance. The results were still abysmal, so I don't think the scheduling is to blame for the many negative experiences that have been reported in various threads.


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## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

TellNotShow said:


> The good promo sites are great demand. You can't book of them with two days. (Or anywhere close to that.) are living in the real, a world where other people use the good promo sites, one of those people booked slot some weeks before you. The promo sites can't just their book with yours because want it NOW. You'd be in the head if you that.


It's absolutely true that it's difficult to get in with some promo sites at short notice, but the real issues here are that the promo site _took the author's money_ anyway, and didn't communicate that they were unable to run the ad on the chosen date.

It sounds like it was fixed in the end, but it's not the author's fault that the promo site allowed him to book and pay for a service they were unable to run.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

LSMay said:


> It's absolutely true that it's difficult to get in with some promo sites at short notice, but the real issues here are that the promo site _took the author's money_ anyway, and didn't communicate that they were unable to run the ad on the chosen date.
> 
> It sounds like it was fixed in the end, but it's not the author's fault that the promo site allowed him to book and pay for a service they were unable to run.


Yes, I agree that the promo sites should all give an indication of how far ahead they're booked. There are a few that don't, and I wish they would - but it's their business, not mine. So I work with whatever they offer. Just like we all have to work with Amazon and what they offer, even though many of their policies stink, and don't make any sense.

However, as for not taking our money if they can't run the promo, several of the promo sites take our money upfront then refund it if they don't choose our book for promo. That's not unusual. But seriously, anyone using their commonsense doesn't attempt to book promo for less than 48 hours away. If you do that, there's just no way you're doing anything but wasting everyone's time, including your own.


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## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

TellNotShow said:


> But seriously, anyone using their commonsense doesn't attempt to book promo for less than 48 hours away. If you do that, there's just no way you're doing anything but wasting everyone's time, including your own.


Bknights, for one, states 'we recommend that you order this gig 48 hours before your advertisement period' and you can pay extra for 1 day delivery. Sure, the expensive, top tier sites can't do this because they don't have slots, but it's plain wrong to assume no site allows this or only those not 'using their common sense' would do it.

I've heard other authors mention they book a promo at short notice at the first sign of a drop in sales, for example.


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## dsbrody (Dec 7, 2016)

Has anyone else had a recent negative experience with BooksButterfly? I paid $75 for a promo from them as part of a series of promos over the past weekend. From what I can see, they listed my action/adventure title (erroneously) on a list of "how to" books, but otherwise did not promote it at all. I have sent 3 queries over past 3 days with no response. Looking at other threads, they seem to have a good reputation on this board, but my experience has been anything but a positive one. Thanks.

EDIT: Adding update from later post here to ensure visibility:



dsbrody said:


> UPDATE: BooksButterfly has now, finally, sent me evidence that my promotion did in fact run. The experience has been unnecessarily cumbersome and acrimonious, but it would be unfair for me to state that they simply took my money without running the promo. (BTW, the promo did not result in significant book sales.) The "poor service" description is still very accurate, however.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

How did you pay? Do a dispute and they'll contact you.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

dsbrody said:


> Looking at other threads, they seem to have a good reputation on this board


I wouldn't say that. They're ... not without their problems. Spotty customer service seems to be an ongoing issue.


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## kbamazonian (Nov 11, 2016)

I used them two weeks ago and I had to re-schedule the date as I didn't have any more sales than what I get every day. A few days before booksbutterfly, I was running the promotion on a much cheaper US site and I could see the difference in sales that day. Abhi from booksbuterfly was kind and helpful but you have to wait 2-3 days before he answers the email.


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

I had a very negative experience with them. I went through it all on an earlier post, but the short version is, my sales went nowhere during the promo period and when I asked for a refund, they twiddled the sales figures around to make it look like I had only a tiny refund coming. And that would be in the form of a credit, which of course was not big enough to cover a full promo and would therefore necessitate my spending more money with them. I disputed it but they wouldn't budge.

I urge everyone not to do business with them.


_edited; please contact a mod if you have questions -- Ann_


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

I also had a terrible experience and will never use them again.


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## dsbrody (Dec 7, 2016)

Thanks to all for your responses. I have initiated a dispute through PayPal, but still have not received any response from BooksButterly. It sounds like they are quickly earning the type of reputation which should keep all of us from doing business there again. I will continue to update.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

dsbrody said:


> Looking at other threads, they seem to have a good reputation on this board, but my experience has been anything but a positive one. Thanks.


Only in old threads - maybe 2 years+? Recent ones contained quite a lot of critical posts.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

I had good experiences for a while, then one bad one, and that was it. Something changed, who knows, but probably wise to stay away now.


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## JosiahUpton (May 18, 2016)

I recently did a free promo with a $50 "500 Guaranteed Downloads" Books Butterfly. It had been over two years since I put my book for free, and I had just updated the cover, so I was hoping for big numbers. Well, I only got about 140. Part of the problem may have been I didn't set up with any other sites, but I wanted to gauge the effectiveness of BB, see if they alone could pull in the numbers they guaranteed. I was disappointed.

On the positive side, they were always friendly and accommodating to me, gave me the full refund without question, let me put it towards a Review Saint campaign, and even covered the few dollars difference I owed. If I hear they become successful again from multiple people, I might give them another try.


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## dsbrody (Dec 7, 2016)

UPDATE:  BooksButterfly has now, finally, sent me evidence that my promotion did in fact run. The experience has been unnecessarily cumbersome and acrimonious, but it would be unfair for me to state that they simply took my money without running the promo. (BTW, the promo did not result in significant book sales.) The "poor service" description is still very accurate, however.


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## dorihoxa (Feb 12, 2016)

Sad   I was going to book them for my next release. So glad I read this.


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## Talbot (Jul 14, 2015)

Yikes.


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## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

Sorry this happened to you. Does PayPal allow you to dispute charges if the service was not actually provided?

Thank you for making others aware.


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## lralbright (Dec 1, 2014)

You can dispute the charge on paypal. That's really sad! I'm glad to know that now...I was going to use them when I finished a project of mine.


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## TheLass (Mar 13, 2016)

Sorry to hear about your experience but I've read both good and bad reviews about Books Butterfly.

I find it hard to believe he would send you such a rude email just for asking why your book wasn't listed. What was _your_ email to him like?

Also you seem to be suggesting that his business is bad simply because it's run from India, I can't agree with that type of sentiment.


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## CozyReads (Oct 13, 2016)

File a dispute with Paypal.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

TheLass said:


> Sorry to hear about your experience but I've read both good and bad reviews about Books Butterfly.
> 
> I find it hard to believe he would send you such a rude email just for asking why your book wasn't listed. What was _your_ email to him like?
> 
> Also you seem to be suggesting that his business is bad simply because it's run from India, I can't agree with that type of sentiment.


Perhaps the issue is that with businesses run from outside the US, it's hard to impossible to bring any legal action. We see this with those piracy sites as well.

I think the only recourse is to try to get the money back through Paypal. And this company should be reported to Writers Beware and other such sites.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

I have read a number of these posts about BB in recent weeks. I'll just share that in 2015, I had four promotions with BB. All of them were successful and in all cases I had multiple emails with Abhi and he was courteous and helpful. One of my ads did not meet the minimum number of sales he "guaranteed" (he didn't really guarantee the sales, merely advertised a partial refund if the target wasn't hit)  and he partially refunded me even though I told him I was still happy with the results. At the time, BB was at worst the third best promo site for thrillers after BookBub and ENT, and sometimes even better than ENT. Abhi used to post here all the time as well, and had some excellent observations and knowledge about the promo site business.

That said, too many people have been posting different experiences recently, so it sounds like something has changed. I just wanted to speak up about my experience previously.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2016)

My first impression of Book Butterfly wasn't good. I thought the guy who responded to me was a jerk. Others liked him and I thought I might have been hasty, but I see now first impressions are often the true ones.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, folks...

I've merged several threads which report Books Butterfly experiences with the vendor thread to help people looking for info.

Betsy


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

andrewbranham said:


> I will never use BB again as the owner Singh ripped me off for $80. I purchased a slot and when it didn't run I emailed him asking why. He responded with a terse email and tried blaming me for his mistake. Long story short he stole my money and told me my opinion didn't matter "one iota" to him. He's a crook running this shameful company. Look him up - tons of people rippped off. I much prefer ENT


Presumably you understand US law better than I do.
Because continually posting that someone "ripped me off" and "stole my money" and all the other things you've said seem pretty slanderous to me.

You've bombarded this thread, making three posts in a row over about a 20 minute period, and they all pretty much say the same thing. (I note they've been moderated, so they may have said other stuff. But the moderators generally only step in for good reason, as I've sometimes found out for myself when I step out of line.)

In fact, I've received many emails from Abhi in the course of my business dealings with him, and his English language skills are impeccable. Better than mine, anyway, and probably better than most people who post on these boards. 
But Canadians do sometimes speak very good English.

I don't know what his email to you said -- but I can definitely say he's never been anything but polite to me, and that his service has helped me to sell many books. 
However, he has, sometimes, written to me in ALL CAPS. 
I think he must type very fast, not looking at the screen, and not realise until later. It was certainly disconcerting the first time. Just saying, ALL CAPS DOESN'T ALWAYS MEAN SOMEONE'S SHOUTING.
Personally, I use caps on this board for emphasis, when I should use italics. But italics are annoying to use here, so I take a shortcut by using caps.

Anyway. Just like Edward Talbot, my experiences with Abhi and Books Butterfly have all been positive. He helps me sell books -- same as ENT (who you mentioned), as well as Booksends, Freebooksy, Bargainbooksy, Bookbub, RobinReads and some other good people do. It's a wonderful thing. I suggest you try them all. Only maybe not get angry then slander them on the internet if it goes wrong, as things sometimes do.
Like the time Bargainbooksy didn't run my promo, and didn't answer my emails for several days because my emails were going into their spam folder -- they ended up running the book for free, and I discovered that you can indeed make good money promoting a book at $2.99 with Bargainbooksy. Silver linings... just saying, glad I didn't ruin that business relationship over it, they've helped me immensely since.

_Edited to remove references to now removed content from quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

TellNotShow said:


> Presumably you understand US law better than I do.
> Because continually posting that someone "ripped me off" and "stole my money" and all the other things you've said seem pretty slanderous to me.


Here in the U.S., something is only slander/libel/defamation if the person making a damaging claim either knew it wasn't true when making it or recklessly disregarded their responsibility to investigate the truth of the claim. It's a high legal bar. If people are _accurately _reporting their personal experiences with BooksButterfly, it would not be considered slander over here.


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## Berries (Feb 5, 2015)

I ran a promo with them last week. Abhi was polite and respectful. My ad ran and I got the sales I was looking for (i.e., 40 over 3 days). I ran the new release spot since my book is relatively new. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. I just wanted to chime in that I had a good experience with them.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2017)

I'd like to clear up this thread

We've been very busy so we haven't had a chance to respond. Now we have a 4 person scheduling team so have more time to look at slander and defamation

Andrew Branham bought a promotion to promote a free book

On the days of promotion, the book wasn't free.

I'll post proof of this later today or tomorrow. The actual rank tracking and the sale.

*********************
At that point Everything is fine

I email the author saying promotion was for a free book. Book wasn't free. For pricing errors there is no refund. However, I can run his book again for no charge

At that point author says

You better run it within 3 or 4 days or I will post everywhere that you are a fraud etc.

At that point I responded that we will post it when there is an available date. I didn't exactly cover myself with glory with the response/ However, from a neutral perspective

Event 1: Author buys the wrong slot Or forgets to reduce price to zero
Event 2: Promotion site offers to run the book later, even though it is a pricing issue  and author entered wrong information
Event 3: Author threatens to defame and slander us if we don't immediately run his book. Which is out of the question. We're booked in scifi for 3 to 5 weeks

Anyways, I'll add proof and email snippets later today or tomorrow.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2017)

Hi Becca

You write:  Here in the U.S., something is only slander/libel/defamation if the person making a damaging claim either knew it wasn't true when making it or recklessly disregarded their responsibility to investigate the truth of the claim. It's a high legal bar. If people are accurately reporting their personal experiences with BooksButterfly, it would not be considered slander over here.

I'll share email details later today which show that author threatened to do defamation and slander if we didn't schedule his book immediately, despite it being a mistake on author's part i.e. he got the wrong slot.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I haven't used BB in a while, but especially outside of Amazon, they've performed second only to BookBub. They put my free book at #5 in the iBooks store for instance. For one particular 99-cent box set I ran they seemed to be the ONLY thing that worked. I did have one promo with them that was only meh, but I've had such good experiences with them in the past I just figured it was the week. I did not ask for a refund because I've had meh promos with every advertiser at some point. It happens. 

Abhi has always been really helpful, sharing insights from his years of experience that he didn't need to offer. The knowledge has definitely helped my career.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2017)

Firstly, to moderators - I'm posting proof. I wasn't aware of this thread until today. For Dec, Jan, Feb you've let Andrew Branham do defamation and slander against us, without verifying any of his claims. That's not right. I would request that you don't remove my post and give me a fair chance to defend my company.
I've already gotten in touch with the owner about defamation and slander. You need to stop allowing this to happen

Secondly, to all the authors who BLINDLY believed Andrew Branham. This is disappointing. I understand that authors have a tendency to BLINDLY believe other authors. However, I'm posting the truth below. We help 200+ indie authors reach 5 million+ readers every day. Yet, every month there is one author who gets mad at us and posts completely false information and other authors blindly believe it. I'd request that you kindly stop letting authors take advantage of your natural tendency to trust other authors blindly

Most of the authros who are mad at us are mad because - their book didn't reach the target. They wanted us to apologize. They get store credit and can get the missing downloads. It's not our book - we didn't write it and we didn't pick the cover. If you email us 'Your site is a scam because I got 400 downloads instead of 800' and expect us to apologize and say - Sorry, your book was one of the 7% that missed (for free book promotions and $0.99 book promotions). that must mean we are a scam.

Then you are going to be disappointed. You get store credit to get the remaining downloads. There is no requirement to buy anything more. We can run for exact amount of store credit. People are going with 'scam' narrative because they are mad at us for their book's performance, which we don't control. We send out books. 7% miss and 93% hit the target. For 7% that miss we do store credit and get authors the remaining sales/downloads. Only 1.5% to 2% of authors have a problem with that

********************************************

Defamation and Slander by Andrew Branham - Claim that we stole $80 from him. Claim that we didn't run his book

Reality 1

This is the slot that Andrew bought
PAID 80.00 USD

Your Order Details:

id: 9747
Email: drew.branham[redacted]
Slot: Free Top 200 Push [PLEASE NOTICE THE NAME - It is Free Top 200 Push. Please notice that it is on Free Books tab, says free book downloads and order page ALSO has 'Free Book Downloads'] Here: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/freebookpromotion/

Date: 2016-10-24 08:03:17
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Parched-Book-Andrew-C-Branham-ebook/dp/B01DR16USY/ref=sr_1_1_twi_kin_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1477310552&sr=8-1&keywords=andrew+branham

AND
id: 9747
Email: drew.branham[Redacted]
Slot: Free Top 200 Push
Date: 12/13/16
Date End: 12/15/16
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Parched-Book-Andrew-C-Branham-ebook/dp/B01DR16USY/ref=sr_1_1_twi_kin_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1477310552&sr=8-1&keywords=andrew+branham
Tag: 
Referrer Domain: no referrer

****************************************

Reality #1 - Author bought and paid for a FREE BOOK PROMOTION - Top 200 Push. Please see it for yourself

Here: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/freebookpromotion/

******************************************

Reality #2 - We did run it, albeit without realizing that author had it at $0.99 and didn't make it free

Here: http://trackmyrank.com/B01DR16USY/?&startDate=2016-12-14&endDate=2016-12-15

Kindly notice that sales rank went up. So either author was using other sites and wants to give them all the credit or author was using only us and he benefitted because book got sales even though price wasn't free

Here you can see the posts

a) Dec 14th main post -> http://freebookdeals.com/2016/12/14/2-free-ny-times-bestselling-author-romances-6-usa-today-bestsellers-112-free-kindle-books-18-kindle-book-deals/

b) Dec 13th and 14th scifi blog - http://sciencefictionfreebooks.com/?s=branham

We did not know that author meant to buy a slot for $1 so we mistakenly ran it as a free book. However, some of the readers who went to the page still bought the book

*****************************

Reality #2: contrary to the author's claims we did run the book
and unless author is claiming all sales were from other promotions, we did generate sales. You can see rank go up significantly

************************************

Reality #3 - Author contacted us and we offered to run it later Even thought it was Author's mistake. Please read the email and notice the absence of any rudeness or capitals or anything

Here (names redacted):

From: Abhi
Sent: December 14, 2016 7:29 AM
To: Author, Andrew
Subject: Re: Booksbutterfly paypal received 80.00

You bought Top 200 Push - $80 for 1,000+ free book downloads

It was for 13th to 15th
Book isn't free today and I'm guessing it wasn't free yesterday

If you were looking for a slot to promote a $0.99 book we can shift to that. Let us know a WIDE date range from now to end Jan and we'll pick out dates. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Author, Andrew Branham
Sent: December 13, 2016 5:53 PM
To: Abhi
Subject: Re: Booksbutterfly paypal received 80.00

For whatever reason my promotion did not run as there are 0 sales for today. Can you please let me know when it is running?

Andrew

******************************************

Reality #3 - We clearly offered a no-cost run as a paid book EVEN THOUGH the author bought the wrong slot and book was not free as it should have been from 13th to 15th

You can also see the sales rank graph and make your own assessment of whether or not author benefited from this snafu i.e. http://trackmyrank.com/B01DR16USY/?&startDate=2016-12-14&endDate=2016-12-15

***********************************************

Reality #4 - Author threatened us, even though we were willing to compensate for HIS error in choosing the wrong spot

First Email: Hello, it was meant to be $.99. That was a mistake. 
Please schedule it for as soon as possible because I can only keep it $.99 for so long. Or you can refund my $80.

Thank you

Andrew

Second Email (OUR RESPONSE): 
There is no refund for pricing mistakes

We had to do all the work + the massive inconvenience to our readers when they see book isn't free

You bought a slot for a free book and you didn't have it free

We are running it for you at $0.99 for no charge as a courtesy

Now we'll schedule it at our convenience.

If you can't keep it at $0.99 much longer then let me know dates in Jan or Feb or Mar

(*************** Yes, it's not a shining example of politeness. however, the bottomline is we are offering to run the author's book again though it was his pricing mistake)

Email #3: WHERE AUTHOR THREATENS US

Just please run it at $.99 as soon as you can and please let me know the dates so I can change it.

I'm not really happy about your customer service and your tone. If this isn't run at $.99 I am going to post this email in my author's group that heavily advertises on your site. There are 120,000 members of this group that would be happy to stop using BB. I work in the business world and would never send an email with that tone.

Andrew

Email #4: This is us responding rather inelegantly to the author's threat

There's no need to threaten us

It's YOUR mistake. You bought a free book slot and didn't have it free.

First you are DEMANDING instead of REQUESTING. It was your mistake. Not ours. Your mistake which cost us damage in some (small amount) of readers that unsubscribed or left because a book supposed to be free wasn't free.
Now you are threatening us

**************
How about this
1) We run it at $0.99

2) you STILL post it your author group. Then I send you a screenshot of month's earnings after you post versus month before you post. Or if your prefer 3 months before and 3 months after

Then you can draw your own conclusions of how effective such threats are + how little impact one disgruntled author's actions have

You are upset that after YOUR MISTAKE we are running a full slot for the full value of your book.

That's a bit rich isn't it
I'll email you within 3 to 5 days. I would greatly appreciate it if you followed through with your threat and gave me the chance to show you how hollow of a threat it is
You can go search online. Lots of authors post lots of lies about us. It hasn't made an iota of difference. All publicity is good publicity.

I'd LOVE for 120,000+ authors to find out that after you made a mistake in pricing we ran the slot for you later for no penalty and no charge

**********************************

Reality #4 - Author threatened us. Yeah, it was wrong to react to that threat. We are human.

Neutral Perspective - Author buys slot to promote free book. Book isn't free. Either author bought the wrong slot or author forgot to reduce the price

Neutral Perspective - We offer to run the book again. Author threatens us with defamation and slander if we don't run it immediately

Neutral Perspective - Like idiots we ask author to share even after we run his book again. Not realizing that instead of sharing the truth the author would do defamation and slander

*****************************************************************************************

Reality #5
Author does defamation and slander (even some weird thread that is since deleted about us being an Indian company - we're a Canadian Company)

Here is one of his posts (please notice the complete and utter detachment from reality)

I know this topic has been hashed out many times, but I wanted to add my story. I recently paid Books Butterfly to promote my Kindle book. I paid Abhishek Singh $80 via Paypal. I never heard a word from him so I emailed to confirm my promotional slot. He emailed me a few days later saying I was confirmed. The day of my promotion came and I did not have a single sale. I also was not listed on the BB website. Therefore, I emailed them and asked what happened. The next day, I received one of the nastiest emails I have received from him. He was typing in all capitals telling me it was my fault, there are no refunds, and that he "didn't give one iota about my opinion, etc". The emails went on to rip indie authors and how our voice holds no power. He dared me to try and share my story as he said, "one disgruntled author won't make a bit of difference to my business." To begin with, it was not my fault. He forgot to run my promo yet he took my $80. And when I called him out on it - he went ballistic like he did to many others on here. The guy has no idea what customer service is, has ripped off hundreds of authors, and truly doesn't care. There are many good promotional sites out there but Books Butterfly is not one of them. I suggestion authors avoid BB at all costs.

***********
Lots of defamation and slander
Claim that we have ripped off hundreds of authors. That's a complete lie. We've never ripped off even one author. Some authors get mad at bad results and blame us for their book non performing. Instead of taking the store credit perhaps they want to keep believing their book is perfect

And, just to be clear, what I'd written and meant is that one author threatening us because we were offering to run his book for no charge after HIS mistake can't hurt us. He spun that and added lies and turned this into a big thing.
I only found this thread today (which should give some indication of the ineffectiveness of lies from one author if you have a strong customer base and a strong product)

********************************************

Alright - no one comes out of this looking good

However, we are HUMAN

Author messes up promotion and doesn't reduce price. We have to disappoint our readers as book isn't free
We offer to run the book again for no charge, later at an available date
Author starts threats

and then author does defamation and slander where instead of telling the truth
he makes up lies and claims we scammed him of $80

***************************************************************************************************

We are doing great. Thank you for your concern

All these threads are being posted on KBoards - one every month

It's all defamation and lies

This is what we have to deal with these authors./ Situations exactly like this

I put the book at the wrong price
Now I want full refund even though it was my mistake
You're offering a no-charge slot to run it again even though it was my mistake. I'm not going to thank you. I'm going to threaten you and then defame and slander you.

*******************************************************

If you want to blindly believe lies and defamation from a small set of authors who are actually just mad at us because we got mad at them when they threatened us or called us a scam that's your choice

We have been dealing with lies and defamation at Kboards since 2014 when some authors (we couldn't understand why) wrote things like - any site that guarantees results must be a scam, I don't like their website design so it must be a scam, Books Butterfly must be using bots, they don't really have 100,000 email subscribers, my book didn't do well so they must be a scam

All promotion sites and all people who want to help authors face this
THIS is why very few people want to help the good authors. Because the 2% of authors who are frustrated take out their anger and frustration on anyone and everyone and then make up lies and slander and defame sites

Now we have 5 million readers and there are screenshots and proof. Still we have to deal with this.

As for politeness - do you really think that people who are polite and pushovers can survive in an environment like this? Please read the thread above. Bottomline is that author messed up promotion and then threatened us. No good deed goes unpunished.
Some authors seem to have a bone to pick with promotion sites. We are a lightning rod because we are growing so fast and because we treat authors exactly how they treat us. 98% are good and everything is great. 2% lose it and then we lose it and then it's a fiasco

There is no way in hell we are going to let these 2% of super negative authors stop us from the work we are doing. And if you're in the good 98% of authors you should wonder

How many more book promotion sites and sites helping authors would there be if authors like Andrew Branham weren't attacking every promotion site and blaming sites for the fact that they made mistakes or their book hasn't had enough love and attention given to it?
I'd reckon at least 10 more

Do you really think there is an ELEGANT way to deal with an author who

- messes up promotion price (or gets wrong promotion)
- blames us for it
- threatens to defame us if we don't run it AT HIS CONVENIENCE and quickly

??

I'll be the first to admit that being rude is wrong. That's my mistake. Growing fast, helping more and more indie authors, and then it sets me off when this sort of thing happens - authors threatening us for helping them

Everything you read about us being rude is true. You likely won't have to deal with it as now there's a 4 person team so I can focus on my main job of adding 1 million+ readers a year and running other divisions. So next time sometone threatens us for their pricing mistake Newton or Pam will write a very nice polite reply and that person will be placated

However, all the lies and slander that we scam people are completely wrong. They are defamation and slander. These authors get upset and then think that they can hurt us by spreading lies

We've been facing this since 2014 - a small set of authors making all sorts of defamatory claims and spreading lies

We're still around. Now we're 5 million+ readers

Are you going to continue to Trust authors blindly when they are just holding a grudge and doing defamation and slander? Your choice. But unless they have 5 million readers to show your book to, it's unproductive to you. They are just trying to bring up the author brotherhood/sisterhood thing as a means to attack us because we were rude to them.

For $0.99 and free book promotions we have an iron clad guarantee with clear terms of service. We ALWAYS stand behind it. You get prorated refund in store credit. 1.5% of authors would rather attack us for causing them the infinite pain of showing their book could be packaged better. So be it. However, defamation and slander is a legal issue. Besides it's just not right.

************************************************

Bottomline
Author messed up. We offered to run the book again, at a time when we could fit in the book. Author threatened us. We double downed on it

Author chose the route of lies and defamation and slander

We're still around. We're adding 1 million+ readers a year. we're at 5 million readers

In Feb we expanded from a one person scheduling and invoicing team (boy am I going to miss these 1.5% of authors who make crazy threats. NOT) with a 4 person team
That tells you everything you need to know about authors who make threats when you are generous with them and who do defamation and slander and who try to destroy your company which connects 200 indie authors with 5 million+ readers every day. Only people missing out are authors who blindly believe such lies. I'll also find and post Paypal receipt to prove author bought a free book slot. And you can see his email was only on 13th after promotion had started. So no corrections until promotion had started

Fundamentally there is a wave of indie authors every 2/3 years. And then certain entities wipe them out.
This current wave is interesting because instead of connecting the dots they are lashing out at everyone around them
The next wave will be smarter. Not blindly trusting. Able to differentiate friend from foe. Not reliant on 'one book sent to 3 million readers' type of advertorial lists

It's very painful to see every wave get mowed down. It's like being a barbarian at the gates of rome and watching fellow barbarians get killed

Here is one of our posts: http://ireaderreview.com/2012/05/03/top-100-indie-authors-for-may-28-authors-to-watch/

Here is another: http://ireaderreview.com/2012/08/13/top-100-indie-authors-for-august-46-authors-to-watch/

Guess what, these posts got attacked too. Authors who were not on the list started claiming these were scams. Attacking it. What did it achieve? Nothing. Now there is no list for readers to easily find best indie authors as who wants to do all this work and then get cursed for it

Do you think our 5 Million+ readers would love a list like this? You bet they would
But there'd be 100 Andrew Branhams mad because their book wasn't on the list and would try to tear it down

The frustrated authors in the ecosystem are attacking EVERYONE blindly. They just want an outlet for their frustrations and they are not thinking about

What is best for authors
what is best for readers
what is best for the ecosystem

It makes us sad when we see indie authors getting killed by Rome
Let us fight Rome, instead of wasting a part of our energies on the 1.5% of crazy Barbarians who've forgotten who their friends are

Is that too much to ask?
To leave us in peace and let us tear down the walls of Rome. You get to share in the gold and riches. Why then would you focus your energies on having us waste 10-15% of our energies on fighting off barbarians trying to stab us in the back

We've grown reader base 100 times in the last 4 years. DESPITE these 1.5% to 2% of crazy barbarians who keep attacking us instead of focusing on Rome

C'mon. How can it be a bad thing that we are connecting 200 indie authors with 5 million readers every single day. Why do you keep attacking? if your book misses take the @#$#$ store credit and run it again. Will it really hurt you that much to admit that perhaps it needs more spit and polish?

Let us tear down the walls of Rome and/or do it yourself. Don't waste your energies attacking us and don't distract us - the sooner we do our work the sooner you can sell in a fair market


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2017)

Also - just to be clear. Author still has a book that has to be run as we offered it and we will run it. It fell through the cracks and author never reminded us (instead choosing to write a lot of fairy tales on this forum)


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

After much discussion, we're re-opening this official thread for this service. Members with specific comments or questions may post here , and the vendor may certainly respond.

*
At all times, courtesy and civility must be maintained or your posts will be removed.*

Other older threads will remain locked. New threads started to report results will be closely monitored.


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## Jean Paul Zogby (Feb 28, 2017)

I am just a lurker, and rarely post here. but I feel compelled to share my experience with BooksButterfly to warn authors of my bad experience.

I booked a Platinum 100+ promotion with them for $170, 3 weeks in advance. I did not receive any confirmation that they will promote my book on the requested date. After a week, I send a reminder for them to confirm. Did not receive nay reply. I sent another 2 emails the following and a few days alter, with no response. Then I contacted their online live chat, and the guy spent half an hour trying to find out if my booking is confirmed. Finally he confirmed, and promised to send an email with the terms. It was only sent after a few days, and after a few other reminder emails. So in terms of responsiveness, they failed miserably.

At the date of the promotion, I did not receive any indication that my book was actually promoted. The promo package I bought included a guaranteed 100+ sales. Their promotion did not add much to my current sales. Before running their promotion (which i am still not sure they did), I had already booked promos on other websites and the book was climbing the ranks even before the date when their promo was supposed to start.

So I contacted them to see if they had any tracking that can proof that they've guaranteed the 100+ sales. They responded that they do not track any sales and have no way to proof that their claim of 100 guaranteed sales was achieved. So I requested that they should have mentioned that on their website on the sales page, so as not to mislead people with guaranteed results. Their response was extremely rude and arrogant. I was surprised by how defensive they became. A simple request to indicate how they have fulfilled their claim of guaranteed sales, became a nasty exchange and they started calling me names! At that point, I knew they were totally unprofessional and there is no point to continue any sensible discussion with them.

So I just thought I would let everyone know.


_edited to conform with Forum rules -- Ann_


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## Guest (May 24, 2017)

Bonjour Jean Paul

I'm sorry you are dissatisfied with your promo. 

Our best understanding of your emails is that you ran with five $10 promotion sites (Fiverr, PricedDroppedBooks, FreeDiscountedBooks, BookRaid, KindleBookReview) during the same week that you ran with Books Butterfly ($170 promotion for 100+ guaranteed sales) and you want to allocate all 400+ additional sales during that Books Butterfly week to those sites and none to us. Are we understanding you correctly?

The sales graph you sent us (Is it Ok to share it here?) shows 400+ additional sales (over and above last week's average sales) during your one week promotion with us

1) Live Chat transcripts show that there was a 5 minute gap between start of  live chat and we responding to your request and confirming we have payment and confirming on live chat that we can run your book during your asked for dates of 15th to 22nd Apr. Sorry if it seemed like 30 minutes to you

2) We emailed you on March 17th with confirmation after you bought a promotion on March 15th. We recommend that customers check spam folder just in case your email filtered our messages out. We have no emails from you between March 17th and April 15th. Just live chat

3) We have sales data from you (sales rank graph you sent us of your KDP dashboard) that shows different statistics than you have posted above. Would you give us permission to share those statistics (as they relate to your sales records and show 400+ additional sales during your promotion with us) on Kboards? 

4) If any of our staff called you names, I apologize. We got 11 emails one after the other from you. That makes it very difficult to know exactly what you are asking and what your expectations are. Our best understanding of your emails is that you ran with 5 $10 promotion sites (Fiverr, PricedDroppedBooks, FreeDiscountedBooks, BookRaid, KindleBookReview) during the same week that you ran with Books Butterfly and you want to allocate all 400+ additional sales during that week to those sites and none to us

We got very confused because first you wrote - I got better sales from a $10 promotion
Then you didn't send us screenshots of sales during this $10 promotion or screenshots of sales during your promotion with us
Then you sent screenshots and added - It was five $10 promotions AND that they were run at same time as Books Butterfly AND you wanted to allocate all sales to those 5 sites

I hope you can see why it can be confusing. Without screenshots and with 11 emails saying different things we don't know what the issue is and what to respond to. We still are not sure what you expected us to say or do

4b) We do not condone name calling in any way at BooksButterfly - we asked you to send screenshots to prove what you are saying is true. We definitely realize that should have been done much more politely and without leaving any room for misinterpretation

5) We want to make sure our customers are satisfied with our service. We are hoping you would let us share chat transcript and sales rank graph here, at KBoards

Wishing you much success with your writing.
Sincerely,
BooksButterfly


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## Jean Paul Zogby (Feb 28, 2017)

You know very well about the unprofessional and extremely rude emails that were sent by your guy abishek (or girl not sure). 
I am not saying that the 10$ promotions were behind the 400 sales I got during that week, because there is no way to track the sales coming from those promos.
But at the same time, you cannot claim that the sales came from your promo as well, because you have no tracking link that can prove that either.(and no, you cannot post my sales data, this is confidential)

I was having similar sales in the weeks that preceded all these promos (including yours), and now I know it was from Amazon Algo that kicked in and started promoting my book (for free). I know that because I noticed a pattern that repeats every week and has nothing to do with any promos I do.
You simply refused to admit that you cannot prove that your promo resulted in any sales. And because of that, I don't think you can promise 'guaranteed sales'. That to me is deceptive. It is a matter of principle. You still cannot prove it. You refuse to admit it, and get extremely rude and defensive when someone tries to politely reason with you.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2017)

Bonjour Jean Paul

1) Firstly, we apologize once again for our emails seeming rude to you. As we got 11 emails from you with different claims, we asked you to send screenshots to understand what you meant. We apologize as that was not put in entirely unambiguous terms. We did not in any way, shape or form intend anything negative. We were just asking for proof via screenshots to understand better

2) Secondly, it's truly unfortunate that you will not let us share screenshots of sales. The screenshot clearly shows 400 ADDITIONAL sales when compared to day before promotion started. If comparing to the previous week, again they show 400+ ADDITIONAL sales over last week's total. Please reconsider

3) Thirdly, we're extremely confused because on May 27th you again bought a promotion package with us. Now we really don't know what to think. On the forums you are warning other authors against using us, and at the same time you are buying more promotion packages from us. We are not able to understand this - please could you enlighten us

4) Fourthly, we refunded your payment on May 29th as it doesn't make sense to promote the book till an agreement is reached about sales during promotion being attributed to us

5) Fifthly, in one of your earlier emails you had written to us - "It looks like you do not understand English.". That makes us think there might be a communication gap and all the issues might be related to this communication gap. Perhaps we should resolve things over email

We are available on live chat and phone and email 24/7


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

@ireaderreview

Did you receive my email from 5/30? I did attach screenshots. Thanks!


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## Jean Paul Zogby (Feb 28, 2017)

ireaderreview said:


> Bonjour Jean Paul
> 
> 1) Firstly, we apologize once again for our emails seeming rude to you. As we got 11 emails from you with different claims, we asked you to send screenshots to understand what you meant. We apologize as that was not put in entirely unambiguous terms. We did not in any way, shape or form intend anything negative. We were just asking for proof via screenshots to understand better
> 
> ...


1) Finally, you admit that your emails were rude. Its better late than never. Apology accepted.

2) Screenshots are confidential and cannot be shared publically.

3) The promotion was ordered by my assistant by mistake as he did not know about the history. Regarding the sales, during the promo period, there is no way for me or for you to prove that it was attributed to your promo. In fact, now I know that the spike in sales was most likely attributed to the Amazon algo because I noticed a repeat in sales pattern every week. This was the main point of contention that I was trying to convey to you, mainly that it is misleading to offer '100 guaranteed sales" when you cannot prove that these guaranteed sales are due to your promo. without affiliate link or something similar, you have no way to track how many clicks your promo generated. Other promo websites like genre pulse offer a simple bitly link that at least tracks the number of clicks. you do not even provide that. This is elementary logic and if you cannot understand that, I cannot make you understand.

4)The communication gap is from your end for the following reasons:

a. It takes ages to get any reply from you. I booked my promo more than 3 weeks ahead and never received a single email from you. I had to extract the confirmation after several emails and online chats. That raised my suspicions that you are maybe a fake promo site.

b. you are very sensitive to simple queries about the service you offer and when someone asks you about the service he bought,

c. you become very defensive and aggressive very fast. In all my emails I was very nice and civil, but you kept pouring your rudeness and anger.

d. you jump to conclusions too without using basic common sense.
For those reasons, you have a major communication problem which I hope you can fix because you will certainly lose many customers like me. By simply checking the forum about your service, I found similar complaints which prove that I am not the only one. So it is either we are all wrong and you are right, or we are all right and you are wrong. I think anyone can guess which is closer to the truth.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I'd suggest that this discussion of the problem be taken off line: It's clear that a customer isn't happy and that the vendor is trying to resolve the issue. I think there's no further value in hashing it out here publicly.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2017)

Jean Paul Zogby said:


> mainly that it is misleading to offer '100 guaranteed sales" when you cannot prove that these guaranteed sales are due to your promo. without affiliate link or something similar, you have no way to track how many clicks your promo generated. Other promo websites like genre pulse offer a simple bitly link that at least tracks the number of clicks. you do not even provide that. This is elementary logic and if you cannot understand that, I cannot make you understand.


You should be cautious of any service that offers "guarantees" of sales. They intentionally don't provide stats. It's part of their business plan.

https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/refund-policy/
"All sales and all downloads during the promotion are attributed to us. There are no exceptions"

They also own a website that sells "honest" reader reviews. They guarantee 1-10 reviews but claim credit for any review within the first three months after the book is published. Does that not sound fishy or what? If they can find desperate authors willing to pay for that service than they'll basically be getting free money for doing nothing.

Buyers beware when dealing with this company.


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## Jean Paul Zogby (Feb 28, 2017)

DustinM said:


> You should be cautious of any service that offers "guarantees" of sales. They intentionally don't provide stats. It's part of their business plan.
> 
> https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/refund-policy/
> "All sales and all downloads during the promotion are attributed to us. There are no exceptions"
> ...


I totally agree Dustin. I should have checked the forums before buying a promo from them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Jean Paul Zogby said:


> I totally agree Dustin. I should have checked the forums before buying a promo from them.


It's always important to do your due diligence before contracting with any vendor; this thread is some 5 pages long and if you read the whole thing you'll see there are some who have been completely satisfied with the Books Butterfly service. Others have not. As always, you may report your PERSONAL experiences with a vendor but must do so with courtesy. Vendors are required to respond with courtesy as well but, at bottom, this is not the place to hash out disputes.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2017)

Hi Dustin

With all due respect, you are making ASSUMPTIONS and quite inaccurate ones

1) This is an ASSUMPTION and inaccurate - They intentionally don't provide stats. It's part of their business plan. 

We are happy to use bit.ly links for authors. We have been doing this recently for authors who promote permafreebooks and share books with us
We don't encourage it when linking to store as lots of our apps don't have support for anything other than www.amazon.com/dp/ASIN format

Bitly stats if linked directly to files are a good proxy for number of downloads. If linked to book page they just tell you number of visits. KDP dashboard is the only accurate count.

We are happy to let authors use bitly links

Your ASSUMPTION in our view is inaccurate - every day we have a few authors using bitly links. You can check our blog at www.freebookdeals.com to see for yourself

****************

1b) I've already discussed above (post pending approval by admins) why we can't use affiliate links and that affiliate links leave out most channels (twitter, mobile friendly websites, apps, etc)

Again, KDP dashboard is the most accurate counting method

********************************************************

2) Another assumption and quite inaccurate - Buyers beware when dealing with this company

Is this advice based on actual experiences and actual knowledge of what our success rate is, or is it just an opinion based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence? 

We have worked with 8,000+ authors. Unfortunately some did not get good results (roughly 8%). 2% of them are unhappy and don't want a re-run. That's unfortunate - we try our best to work things out. With some of them we are quite unsuccessful in resolving the issue

********************************

3) As Ann said - you may report your PERSONAL experiences with a vendor

You are anonymous. You aren't stating any evidence or actual experiences. We'd appreciate it if you could email us actual results at [email protected] and we'll resolve the issue for you

***

4) As Ann said -  if you read the whole thing you'll see there are some who have been completely satisfied with the Books Butterfly service. Others have not.

We have worked with 8,000+ authors and work with thousands of authors every month. Refund rate is less than 8% for books promoted at $0.99 and at free. Roughly 66% of our customers are repeat customers

We have actual hard evidence that proves all this. Bank statements. Payment records. Testimonials. 66% Repeat customers. We have hard evidence of dispute rate being just 2.5%
**************


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2017)

Jean Paul Zogby

1) It's unfortunate that you are unhappy with the experience
For the perceived rudeness - we have apologized and we're glad that you have accepted

2) For the claim that we didn't generate any sales, it's puzzling that you (and the forum moderators) won't let us share sales rank graph, despite the author sharing his sales stats freely elsewhere i.e. http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,250650.msg3490627.html#msg3490627

If you are already sharing stats on this forum, then surely the best way to prove we didn't generate sales for you is to show the sales rank graph
You're saying - no sales increase
Graph is showing - 400+ additional sales (over and above previous 2 weeks average)

So sharing the graph would easily end all this confusion

**********

3) For the claim that we shouldn't guarantee sales - That falls more into the realm of a difference in opinion about how a company should be run.

As stated earlier - We only want to make money when our authors get results. It's truly unfortunate that our commitment to authors is constantly attacked by a few people (most of whom haven't promoted with us). It's really one of our best features - results guaranteed, or you get store credit. What's not to love?

We are creators ourselves and have sold 1.35 million+ apps, most at $0.99. For us the best marketing would be - guaranteed results and you pay only when you get results. So that's what we built

Every single time (and it's not often) someone tells us - I don't want guaranteed results and instead just want you to send the book out to X readers
It's puzzling to us. Sales and Downloads are MUCH better than 'X people were sent your book'

92% of the time, promotions for $0.99 and free books hit the target and remaining 8% of the time authors can run the book again

From our repeat customers we constantly hear that they love this feature (the guarantee) and sales trends also show this is an amazing sales booster (guaranteed results or a prorated refund in store credit)

1) Our authors have an accurate estimate of how they can plug our promotions into their bestseller drives and launch campaigns
2) It's one of our differentiators and key selling points
3) It's a self-reporting system where authors check the KDP dashboard and self-report. The author does self-reporting

*******

4) Jean Paul, we find it very puzzling that you are posting here on forums warning authors against us while using a different email to buy more promotion packages. Equally puzzling is that your personal assistant claimed to not be associated with you (perhaps he's an intern)

***********


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## Fluffyshotme (Aug 14, 2017)

ireaderreview said:


> Thanks Felix. I appreciate the vote of confidence.
> 
> Just a quick note
> 
> ...


ireaderreview,

I am looking at running a promotion for my book which will be exclusively available from Amazon. How many reviews would you recommend I get before I initiate a marketing campaign through your service?

I wrote a book about the strategies and rules that I established in order to win custody of my son. I plan to run a promotional for paid books under the "How To" genre.

I wanted to post this publicly in case others have similar questions about the timing of their own marketing campaigns.

Thank you,


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Fluffyshotme said:


> ireaderreview,
> 
> I am looking at running a promotion for my book which will be exclusively available from Amazon. How many reviews would you recommend I get before I initiate a marketing campaign through your service?
> 
> ...


This thread is filled with old information about Butterfly. I suggest you look for other threads on KBoards with more recent information to give you a more accurate picture of what to expect currently.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Yeah, you need to research the current issues with this company, not revive two and a half year old threads. Whole different world now.

Also, in general, no need to bring up zombie threads. Start a new one if you have questions.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2017)

Fluffyshotme, responding to your questions

I am looking at running a promotion for my book which will be exclusively available from Amazon. How many reviews would you recommend I get before I initiate a marketing campaign through your service?

* There is no strict requirement. 

If no reviews - then cover must be well done (by a top designer like goonwrite.com or damonza.com or ebooklaunch.com etc)

If very few reviews - review rating must be high

If 10 or more reviews - then review rating must be 4 stars or higher

Generally, always better to promote after getting a few reviews and a rating of 4 stars or higher

****************


I wrote a book about the strategies and rules that I established in order to win custody of my son. I plan to run a promotional for paid books under the "How To" genre. 

*****
Non Fiction is strong for us. However, this topic is a bit niche as most Kindle owners are over 50. And our demographics also match that.
Not that many kindle owners involved in custody cases, to the best of my knowledge
So I'd recommend getting a smaller promotion package like Release Gold (if over $1) or New Release (if $0.99 or $1)


I wanted to post this publicly in case others have similar questions about the timing of their own marketing campaigns. 

***********
Yeah, this is a very common question - how many reviews before we will approve a book?

Answer: There is no review requirement. But if no reviews then you should have a darn good cover and you should not be expecting to get the type of results a book with 50 reviews and a 4.5 star rating will get. Guarantee will still hold if we take your book. However, please adjust expectations


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

In a recent thread, KBoards' members were directed to use this vendor thread for further questions or comments about your service, so I am doing so.

In answer to a reader question about how readers are able to sign up to avail themselves of Books Butterfly promotions you replied:

"The Books Butterfly Site is a site FOR AUTHORS to buy promotion packages
why would a site built FOR AUTHORS TO ORDER PROMOTION PACKAGES have an email sign up link for readers?"

Would you please confirm for me (or explain further to penetrate my denseness), there is no "Books Butterfly" reader promotion site, the site is strictly a clearinghouse to send promotional materials to various other blogs, twitter feeds, apps, etc.?  If an author says "I have a Books Butterfly promotion on November 20, 2017", a reader needs to be signed up for or know to go to some other site to find it?

Will you tell this reader-only whether any/all of the sites are vetted or under your control?  For example, I finally made my way from your promotional site to freebookdeals.com where the first 3 listings violate at least the Amazon TOS by saying, "Author is offering files only for readers who agree to review it. And only for ReviewSt readers and Books Butterfly readers."  So only request those books if you are going to review somewhere other than Amazon and the books aren't available to everyone?  Do I have to go further to sign up for ReviewSt to have access? If Books Butterfly is only an author-promotion sign-up site, who are Books Butterfly readers?

I guess I'd like to be able to tell your author customers about the effectiveness of your platform from a reader customer prospective like I can with other promotional sites such as BookBub.  A reader can tell authors, "I've purchased or downloaded for free, 150 books since January 01, 2017 as a direct result of BookBub ads. It's the only promotional site I use to find deals."  I don't find a way to link my purchases directly to your service so authors can figure out a ROI.

Final question for my personal edification. Do you know or is there any way to know how many of the 5 million+ readers you claim are duplicate sign-ups to multiple sites to which you push promotional materials?


----------



## Guest (Nov 20, 2017)

1) Books Butterfly is a promotion company

www.booksbutterfly.com is the ORDER SITE for authors to make orders. So the website you see there is ONLY FOR Authors. Just the way that if you go to adwords.google.com that is a site ONLY FOR ADVERTISERS not for people using a search engine

Just the way that adwords.google.com is the order site/purchase site to purchase adwords ads, booksbutterfly.com is the order site to purchase books Butterfly Ads

www.booksbutterfly.com is the order site for authors WHEREAS Books Butterfly is the COMPANY

We have never been able to understand by some authors just can't fathom this. that you can have an order site built just for authors to order promotion packages, whereas the company itself has hundreds of book promotion blogs and apps and twitter accounts for readers WHICH ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE

What is percentage of authors that are looking for book offers? close to zero. They are only there to buy promotion packages. So build a site for them

What is percentage of readers that are looking to buy promotion packages? probably zero. So don't have anything reader related on the order site. There are no readers visiting www.booksbutterfly.com

Books Butterfly is a promotion company that has hundreds of marketing channels

When you buy a promotion package from this order site your book will be promoted on the Books Butterfly company's entire network (all owned by us)

1) our Apps - over 200 of them

2) our twitter accounts

3) our email lists - 30+ genres, 11 countries, 4 different ebook stores. Subgenres do not yet have email lists, only blogs

4) our blogs - over 100

This page has a list of some of our blogs and some of our twitter accounts. It is RIGHT at the TOP at www.booksbutterfly.com as 'How It Works' link. Here: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/how-it-works/#step3

This page has a list of apps and screenshots - https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/proof-4-million-readers/
this is also right at the top as 'proof' page

The sites and apps and twitter accounts are listed on www.booksbutterfly.com Order Site itself. Authors can check on How it Works page and see list of blogs. And they can check on Proof page and see some of the apps

***********

The confusion is that everyone is used to - one book promotion website that does dual functions - it has list of books, and it also has Advertise link somewhere at the bottom or on top right for authors to click

We have a completely different model

Each genre is its own blog, its own app, its own little world

so it's a network for 67 genres and subgenres and each is its own site. So imagine having 67 completely separate promotion sites, one per genre/subgenre
And also having 4 main store based sites - for Kindle, Nook, Apple, Kobo

Now, instead of each of these 71 sites having its own order site, they all have ONE order site - www.booksbutterfly.com

So whether you want to promote romance (which is sites like romancefreebooks.com and associated apps and associated twitter accounts etc.) or mystery (which is sites like www.mysteryfreebooks.com and associated apps and associated twitter account etc.) all orders are made through www.booksbutterfly.com

There are also general kindle blogs, 11 country specific kindle blogs, and blogs for Nook, Apple, Kobo
and they each have apps and each have email lists
and each have apps in one or more app stores

**************************************************

2) There is absolutely no Amazon TOS violations. It's completely legal to share a free copy of your book in return for an honest review. The readers are not paid and they only write honest reviews

****************

3) Books Butterfly readers are anyone who uses any of the sites or apps

4) Yes, everything is 100% controlled by us. It's simple email lists and blogs. There's not really anything to 'vet' - it's a list of book offers and deals

5) You're free to sign up to any of the sites and use them and tell authors whatever you found etc. An individual Author only cares about whether or not you downloaded and bought their books. How many books you bought this year is low value information

6) Good question. 5.1 million readers

Firstly we already account for all this. Most places we list the adjusted figure

Some places there is close to zero overlap - Apple iPad and Kindle Fire, for example

Some places there is lots of overlap - mystery and thriller

Generally, as we're adding 1 million readers a year, the 5.1 million figure is after overlap

Please keep in mind that we don't do cross promotion between Twitter and Apps or between Apps and Twitter. So those readers are for the most part completely separate. The 3 million App readers have never had our twitter accounts promoted to them, and the 1.8 million Twitter Users have not had our apps promoted to them

So those two (the bulk of our readers) have very little overlap

So of that 4.8 million there are at least 4.4 million unique users there
And then email lists and blogs add on another 440,000 or so for 4.84 million

However, these are all figures from beginning of 2017. we're adding 1 million+ readers a year so whatever 'is there overlap' angle you try to bring in, gets blown out of the water. It's 5.1 million unique readers. You can try any angle you like to try and claim 'it's not 5.1 million readers' but reality is we have 5.1 million+ unique readers and our NET add rate of readers is over 1 million new unique readers a year


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

Where is the reader signup? Before I sign up for a promo service, I like to know what the service looks like for my potential buyers and where they're finding the service. It's good due diligence.

If it's a long list, that's fine. I still want to know where the potential buyers are signing up for the newsletter / reading list / etc.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2017)

This page has lists of blogs - https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/how-it-works/#step3

Just click on your genre and it'll take you to the blog. There are sign up links at the top of the page
email looks just like blog, so there's no need to sign up just to see what everything looks like


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Gosh, I'm so flattered you think one of my questions was good.



ireaderreview said:


> **************************************************
> 
> 2) There is absolutely no Amazon TOS violations. It's completely legal to share a free copy of your book in return for an honest review. The readers are not paid and they only write honest reviews
> 
> ****************


This answer is flat-out wrong. From the Amazon Community Guidelines, under exceptions to Promotions and Commercial Solicitations (bolding mine):

"Book authors and publishers may continue to provide free or discounted copies of their books to readers, *as long as the author or publisher does not require a review in exchange *or attempt to influence the review."


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2017)

From ReviewSt site: Get Free Copies of Books in Return for Honest Reviews. If you like the book, please review it.

www.reviewst.com

ReviewSt code of ethics: http://reviewst.com/readers/code-of-honor/

******************************

What is written in Books Butterfly sites when sharing books made free for reviews

Please Note: Author has made this book free in return for a honest review. Please leave the Review on Amazon Kindle Page here, after reading it. Bookmark it if possible. Thank you.

***************

* there is absolutely no requirement to review the book if you take it. We are specifying the reason why the book has been made free

you are reading it too literally

It's not - author has said you cannot take the book until and unless you agree to review it. First enter this code and then promise to leave a review and then you will get book. There is no sign up or condition to get the book. It's available freely during the Review St promotion

It's actually meant to be - book is listed for anyone to download WITHOUT conditions ONLY with the UNDERSTANDING that the purpose of the author making the book free is to get reviews. so if you like the book please review it

***
anyways, thanks for pointing out the room for confusion if someone is very literal and leaves out the context that book is available freely. I've asked team to edit it a bit to make it clear that author is hoping they will leave a review if they like the book

******************************

Looking at the rule you shared - There is no review required. Any of our readers can download the book freely. we only ask that if they like the book they review it and we specify why the author has made the book free - to get reviews


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

this may sound snarky, but i don't really mean it that way...

could you, in a post less than 100 words long, explain where you get your readers.  

if you feel this is secret info that you don't want to share, simply say that.  we won't like that answer very much, but we will accept it.  

but please, a short answer.  sometimes i feel that i'm trying to read a legal textbook when parsing your posts and a i am definitely missing things.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

telracs said:


> could you, in a post less than 100 words long, explain where you get your readers.


Ditto.

BooksButterfly claims to have 5 million readers (which is more than Bookbub) and that they are adding a million a year.

Yet there is no deal newsletter and nowhere to sign up as a reader, so how is that number being calculated?

For a service which claims to have 5 million readers, the results reported by authors are infinitesimal to zero for such a large reader base. Which means there either isn't actually 5m readers or they have incredibly low engagement rates.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

Telracs

1) For Blogs - Click on this link. https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/how-it-works/#step3

Then scroll down half a page to see list of main blogs, genre blogs, sub genre blogs. these are some, not all
Click on any of the blogs. Each blog has a bar at top of the page with links to email lists and links to other blogs

If this is not understandable let me know and I'll see if I can explain it any simpler

2) For Apps - Click on this link. https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/proof-4-million-readers/
Then scroll down to see lists of Apps

**************

I'm posting that list here to eliminate the strange line of thinking of 'there are no email signup links' and other wrong things. This is a PARTIAL list

Here are some of our blogs and websites

Main Blogs
Kindle Main Blog - www.freebookdeals.com
Nook Main Blog - www.freebooky.com
Kobo Main Blog - www.koboreview.com
20+ Kindle Genre Blogs, including
Romance - www.romancefreebooks.com
Mystery - www.mysteryfreebooks.com
Thriller - www.thrillerfreebooks.com
Christian - www.christianfreebook.com
Historical Fiction - www.historicalfreebooks.com
Science Fiction - www.sciencefictionfreebooks.com
Non Fiction - www.nonfictionfreebooks.com
How To - www.howtofreebooks.com
40+ Kindle SubGenre Blogs, including
Deals - www.ebook-deal.com
Cozy Mystery - www.freecozymystery.com
Gardening - www.gardeningfreebooks.com
Hard Boiled Mystery - www.hardboiledmystery.com
Romance Bestsellers - www.romance8.com
Steamy Romance & Erotica - www.eroticafreebooks.com
Steamy Romance Only - www.steamybook.com
Prepper - www.prepperfreebooks.com
History - www.historyfreebooks.com
Clean Romance - www.cleanromancebook.com
Christian Romance - www.freechristianromance.com
Suspense Thrillers - www.freesuspensethriller.com
Clean Books - www.freecleanbooks.com
Historical Romance - www.freehistoricalromance.com
Crime Thrillers - www.crimethrillerbooks.com
True Crime - www.freetruecrime.com
Contemporary Romance - www.contemporaryromances.com
Free Box Sets - www.freeboxset.com
Cheap Box Sets - www.cheapboxset.com
Dark Romance - www.dark4u.com
Shifter Romance - www.shifterbook.com
BDSM - www.romantickink.com


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

Tilly said:


> Ditto.
> 
> BooksButterfly claims to have 5 million readers (which is more than Bookbub) and that they are adding a million a year.
> 
> ...


Hi Tilly

You have not shared what book you had which got zero results, your book genre, book length, book price. Please clarify

Now you are making completely wrong assertions

1) Bookbub has 11 million email subscribers and 3.5 million people on Facebook. we have 3 Million App Readers, 1.8 Million Twitter Readers, and 314,000 on Email. So they are bigger

2) This is patently false - No Deal Newsletter and No where to Sign up. The list above is of some of our blogs (also listed here: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/how-it-works/#step3). Each has sign up bar at the top of the page. If you look at each post, after free books there are email sign up links everywhere

3) This is also completely made up nonsense - results reported by authors are infinitesimal to zero for such a large reader base

We have only 8% of books at $0.99 and $0 that miss the target. Vast majority of those authors are OK with store credit
1% to 2% miss by a lot. Even many of those authors are fine with store credit

We have only 7 disputes out of the last 2,700 promotion packages sold

You have a promotion from how long back? We know on the other thread an author shared a promotion from Mar 2016 that was for 10 guaranteed sales and got 6. That was for one book from 1.5 years ago for a 10 guaranteed sales promotion package. Taking that data point with your own data point and trying to make a general statement - results reported by authors are infinitesimal to zero for such a large reader base

is completely false and misleading

Please read the Guaranteed Results page which explains why some books miss - https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/guaranteed-results/


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

Finally, there are false claims being made i.e.

A) There is no email sign up link. Please check the blogs above and you can see EACH has links at top of the page and also links in the posts itself (for most of the lists)

B) That the reader break up for 1 blog out of 100+ blogs, is indicator of our general readership. It's not. Blog Readers are just 118,000 uniques out of our 5.1 Million+ Readers. so taking 1 blog out of 100 for what is 2% of our reader base, and drawing extrapolations from that is completely wrong

C) That authors are not getting results. Again, we've worked with 7,000+ authors and sold 12,000 promotion packages. For the last 2,700 promotion packages sold there are only 7 disputes. Yes, 8% of books promoted at $0.99 and $0 miss. However, there is store credit and most authors are OK using store credit and running book again, or running some other book, and getting results to what the guarantee figure was

It's unfortunate if your book didn't do well. If it missed it's one of the 8% and there is store credit
If it got zero results then please share genre, book length, price so we can see the reason. You fall into the bottom 1% to 2% and the reason there is usually novella length or book free in the past or price over $1 or all three

D) For Reference, this is rough break up. If you actually go through the pages on the website all this is crystal clear

https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/4-million-readers/

What do you get when you promote with Books Butterfly?

Reach our 2,838,231 Readers on Apps
Reach our 1,750,801 Twitter Readers
Reach our 310,890 Email Subscribers
Reach our 118,900 Website & Blog Visitors

You get an amazing combination of book promotion channels -

With 1.75 Million Readers on Twitter we are the #1 Twitter Book Promotion Company
With 1.35 Million+ Android Readers we are the #1 Android App Book Promotion Company
With 822,500+ Apple Readers we are the #1 Apple App Book Promotion Company
With 549,768 Windows Readers we are the #1 Windows App Book Promotion Company
With 310,890+ Email Subscribers we are a Top 5 Email Book Promotion Company
Our 20 Genre Blogs and 63 Sub Genre Blogs get 118,900+ Unique Visitors each Month


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

If after reading this thread you somehow still want to do business with BB, consider this refund policy. And note that you will only get a store credit (with rare exceptions) to use again for the service that just failed you. 

Prorated Refund in Store Credit
If your book is in one of the 7% of promotions for $0.99 books and free books that miss, then you are entitled to a prorated refund in store credit provided

1) For $0.99 books, your book should never have been free in the past
2) Book should not have been run with Bookbub in the past. Exception: NY Times Bestselling Authors, USA Today Bestselling Authors, Box Sets at $0.99 if you let us know beforehand
3) No guarantee for books under 150 pages in length
4) No guarantee for books that are Children's Books or Young Adult Books or have a protagonist who is a Young Adult
5) Guarantee is ALWAYS a prorated refund in store credit
6) All sales and all downloads during the promotion are attributed to us. There are no exceptions
7) You did not change the price during the promotion. If you increase the price of a $0.99 book to above $1 during the promotion, the guarantee is void. If you increase the price of a free book during the promotion, the guarantee is void


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

Monique, thank you very much for sharing that


Firstly, 92% of books promoted at $0 and $0.99 hit the target, so 92% of the time you don't have to worry about store credit or terms.

For the 8% of books that miss, they usually miss for reasons stated on the Refund Policy page i.e. short story, novella, free in the past book being sold at $0.99, book price changed in the middle of promotion. Those are 100% not a good fit for our service. There is no guarantee for those cases

Secondly, there is a lot of hearsay on the forums. Reality is that there are only 7 disputes out of the last 2,700 promotion packages sold. So even if you are in the 8% of books that miss, most of the time store credit will get you the remaining results, or we'll find a resolution

You'll notice that a lot of the supposed 'bad results' are from years ago, or where authors are anonymous, and most don't share any graphs or results. Additionally, authors will not reveal critical details like - genre, book length, prices

Many of the complaints are from authors who had a novella that didn't do well, or a $4.99 book in a small genre like Childrenn's Books that didn't do well, and will not apply to your book. However, please do read Refund Policy and Terms

1) Authors are emailed terms via two separate emails before promotion so they are aware of terms

2) Every single page on the website (www.booksbutterfly.com) links to Terms page and to Refund Policy page

However, even if you forget to read Terms we email you terms so you are aware of terms

And yes, we stick to those Terms of Service. If you have a baseline of sales you can let us know beforehand and we can subtract that. Otherwise we only guarantee the total, as we want to avoid the situation (which 1% or 2% of authors try to bring up) that - I ran with 7 sites and yours is the only guaranteed site, so I'm going to attribute 100% of results to the other 6 sites and zero to you. These are the exact same authors who then spread misinformation on the Internet


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

ireaderreview said:


> Telracs
> 
> 1) For Blogs - Click on this link. https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/how-it-works/#step3
> 
> ...


so, you push to BLOGS.... not READERS. so you don't really reach anyone, the blogs do.

and by the way, if you're trying for sarcasm, you do it well. if you're not, you need to try and edit things, as a lot of people are finding it offensive. i'm not, instead i find you amusing.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

For Puddleduck

1) If there's no e-mail sign-up, what are these subscribers subscribing to?

There is an email sign up. Please click on any of the blogs. Example: www.romancefreebooks.com

Look at the actual post. After the books there is a list of email sign up links. You can click on any of those and sign up for that genre
OR
Look at the very top of the page. there are email sign up links there too

THAT is where readers sign up

***
Do you count each visit to one of your websites as an individual reader?

No we don't

Apps - Readers
Twitter - Followers
Blogs - Unique Visitors
Email List - Subscribers

In each case we only count unique people. For Apps it is unique people who have downloaded. For Twitter it is unique followers. For blogs it's unique monthly visitors. For email list unique subscribers

ALL this information is on website. Please read the website instead of pasting assumptions

Here: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/12-million-monthly-active-readers/

Here: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/daily-active-readers/


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

hi Telracs

I'm writing an answer in simple english. There is no sarcasm

************************

you write: 
so, you push to BLOGS.... not READERS. so you don't really reach anyone, the blogs do.

**************

We have email lists that have subscribers, blogs that get visitors, apps that people have downloaded and visit, and twitter accounts that readers follow

On this thread I've already posted channels earlier. You can read the list of marketing channels again on this page: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/4-million-readers/

Please read the page on Daily Active Readers and Monthly Active Readers

https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/daily-active-readers/

https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/12-million-monthly-active-readers/

*************
All information is clearly listed on the website
If you visit the website and read the information then you won't have to ask questions here. You can read the How it Works page - https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/how-it-works/

For reference we work with lots of people who are not tech savvy at all, and no one has an issue. Even people who can't use a website. On the other hand you are tech savvy to be using a forum and yet you are refusing to simply read our website which has all the information


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

Puddleduck

With all due respect you are completely confused + fixated on some assumption you have made

This is simply not true - 


> So you count every person who ever visits one of your websites (and every time someone visits from a different computer or clears their cookies) as one of your "subscribers" or "readers". In other words, you now count me as one of your readers because I've visited your website. Heck, you probably count me as two since I clicked to two of your websites from two different locations.


*********

No.

There are 4 separate marketing channels

Email Subscribers - people who have signed up for our email lists and get those emails in their inbox each day. That is 314,000

Website Visitors - these are website visitors. we only count uniques. cleaning cookie will not make you different. Different computer would. These are 118,000 and less than 2% of our total readership. You seem very fixated on this and it's 2% of our readers

App Readers - people who have downloaded our apps and visit our apps

Twitter Readers - people who follow our accounts on Twitter

**********
We do not count 'visitors' as subscribers. Only email subscribers are subscribers

So these are not 'person visited once and never came back' type of people

App Readers have the app installed on their Kindle, iPad, iPhone etc.
Twitter Followers follow us on Twitter
Email Subscribers are subscribed and get email every day in their inbox

At this point I'd request you to read the website (www.booksbutterfly.com) as it answers all your questions. It'll take you just 5 minutes instead of making a lot of false claims. All this information is very clearly explained on the website


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

ireaderreview said:


> hi Telracs
> 
> I'm writing an answer in simple english. There is no sarcasm
> 
> ...





ireaderreview said:


> 1) Books Butterfly is a promotion company
> 
> www.booksbutterfly.com is the ORDER SITE for authors to make orders. So the website you see there is ONLY FOR Authors. Just the way that if you go to adwords.google.com that is a site ONLY FOR ADVERTISERS not for people using a search engine
> 
> ...


Am I the only one finding a disconnect between these two responses to readers who were trying to find out how to access this company's promotions? There are no readers visiting or anything reader related on booksbutterfly.com, but readers need to read everything on the author promotion site booksbutterfly.com to discover the various blogs, apps, etc. so we stop asking question here.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

But ... but ...

OK, here's your romance blog. The thing that supposedly people are signed up to. 
http://romancefreebooks.com/

Except that almost all the top clickable links are for authors. "Become a bestselling author," etc. There is NO place for a reader to sign up to be notified of deals that I can see. Even if I click on "Free books," which should be where a reader would go--no place to sign up. So where are these subscribers subscribing? It must be someplace else? Where is the place where, as a reader, I go and sign up to be notified of your deals?

There are also no book covers? Just text. That's pretty odd. I've never seen that on anybody's deal blog.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

Regarding this: 

And that's not even getting into how unappealing the look of your blogs are, and how they're nothing but unsightly lists of words with no actual blurbs or covers. In other words, there's no actual promoting going on.  (Seriously everyone, go look at those links. It's worth knowing what their "promotion" looks like.)


************

A) Blogs are 2% of traffic. So it doesn't matter very much. You seem very very fixated on them. They are 118,000 monthly unique visitors. Compared to our total readership of 5.1 million. so just 2%

B) Twitter includes covers and some of the apps include covers. However, covers are not as much of a sales/promotion device as you might think. We've tested since Jan 2008. So close to 10 years now. We know what works with OUR READERS and that's all that matters. Not what authors think will work, but WHAT ACTUALLY WORKS

C) We've been curating since Jan 2008 and we built what works FOR OUR READERS

D) The best promotion is what works for that set of readers

E) As we guarantee results and as 92% of books promoted at $0.99 and $0 hit the target, there's really no reason to worry about 'how pretty is the website'

F) Unsightly lists of words?  These are readers. They are looking for 'words' worth reading. So they have no issue with it being 'unsightly lists of words'. Take a look at Google - that's an unsightly list of words and links too.  Yet, it works and makes Google $2.2 billion in profits a month. Look at Craigslist or Wikipedia

The aim of the site is to inform readers of new books and offers and deals and LET THEM DECIDE. The hard push doesn't work

G) I'll repeat this again - these are readers. They are pretty smart and well read people. We have a lot of the early adopters and the hard push just doesn't work


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

It's a truly terrible website, but there is a place to sign up for "free emails". See the 3rd row of navigation links at the top of the page.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

1) Regarding this: readers need to read everything on the author promotion site booksbutterfly.com to discover the various blogs, apps, etc. so we stop asking question here

No. Readers don't need to visit the promotion site ever

Because

They find our apps in the app stores
they find our blogs from search engines
They find our twitter accounts on Twitter

*****************

For readers there's no UNIVERSAL Brand - Books Butterfly was for authors - a brand for authors

Readers find blogs and sites individually

Example: Search for 'Free cowboy western books' on Bing and our site pops up as 3rd in organic results

Example: https://www.bing.com/search?q=free+cowboy+western+books

******************************

So, there is no one Universal 'Books Butterfly' brand for readers. That is author centric

However, the Books Butterfly company has 100+ blogs and sites and readers find those via

apps in app store 
Twitter accounts on twitter
word of mouth from existing readers
searches on search engines

etc.
**********************************************

the whole problem is you look at something like FreeBooksy or Bookbub and it's SAME BRAND for both authors and readers. Same INCOMING channel for both

For us it's different

Reader side there is

200+ Apps in App Stores
100+ Blogs via search engines
Word of Mouth
20+ Accounts on Twitter

So instead of 1 universal brand for readers and a few incoming channels, there are hundreds of incoming channels


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> But ... but ...
> 
> OK, here's your romance blog. The thing that supposedly people are signed up to.
> http://romancefreebooks.com/
> ...


1) AS another author pointed out there si a third row at the top that has email sign up links

2) Did you read the blog post?

http://romancefreebooks.com/

Here is what happens

Reader finds blog
Reader reads through deals
As the reader reaches end of deals reader finds this: (where each word is a link to the email list. You have to visit the blog to find out)

***
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***

THAT is the part you missed because you were so fixated on 'proving there are no email sign up links'
Please don't be so biased. In the past you took a 2015 thread about us and in 2017 start making claims that we don't work. Going back 2 years to find posts - that's commitment. Now today you are blatantly ignoring the 100+ email sign up links and claiming there are no sign up links


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Usedtoposthere said:


> But ... but ...
> 
> OK, here's your romance blog. The thing that supposedly people are signed up to.
> http://romancefreebooks.com/
> ...


I think it's right here, in the blue bar at the top ("Free Emails"). Clicking on the link I've highlighted in the image generates a window where I can submit my email address.










To everyone else: Let's please keep the questions and comments directed at ireaderreview free of ridicule.

ireaderreview, please consider that the consistent difficulty our members seem to have finding links/info may signal some site-design shortcomings, rather than intentional obtuseness or vindictiveness. It did take me a while to notice that blue bar, and even when I saw it, I wasn't sure it was for email signups.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> I think it's right here, in the blue bar at the top ("Free Emails"). Clicking on the link I've highlighted in the image generates a window where I can submit my email address.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah. I see it now. Thanks. Not really easy enough to navigate, I wouldn't say.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Evelyn Alexie said:


> Be careful not to take any of it too "literally" or you'll be chided.
> 
> Seriously, I find this business model ... murky.


You win for best prognostication! Chiding noted in further response, I have a "whole problem". I'm done.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

hi Becca

1) Regarding this: ireaderreview, please consider that the consistent difficulty our members seem to have finding links/info may signal some site-design shortcomings, rather than intentional obtuseness or vindictiveness

There are links in the top bar and also immediately after the list of book offers. Most visitors who visit read the list and find links at the bottom. The best point to get people to sign up is AFTER you have delivered value. They go through the list, find some good offers, and then they reach the end, and that's the point of MAXIMUM conversion - I just got value, if I sign up for email then I'll get even more value

The only thing better would be a lightbox or an exit intent popup. However, those are icky solutions from a usability perspective

**************

We've grown email list from 3,000 in beginning 2013 to 314,000 now. So there's nothing wrong with sign up process. That's a 100 times growth

I will, however, consider the input. If it applies to readers then we will consider improvements. If it only applies to authors trying to prove some mythical claim that there are no email sign up links, then it has no value

Sometimes what works is not what you think would be obvious. We've grown to 5.1 million readers by optimizing for WHAT WORKS as opposed to what some set of authors think works. If any of these authors have 5.1 million readers then we'd love for them to share proof and then we'll gladly listen to their suggestions

We've grown our reader base 100 times in last 3.5 years. So, everyone can have their opinion about 'how Books Butterfly should do X, Y, and X'. However - If it ain't broke, don't fix it

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I've never used your services. I actually don't book my own promo. I clicked on the link you provided out of curiosity and couldn't find a way to sign up, which seemed odd, so I asked how it worked. I was answered. I said thanks.

It's not a user-friendly site from my point of view, and your business model raises too many red flags for me, but others can make their own determination.

I'll repeat what others have said, though. Your combative tone is ... odd in a business relationship. I speak as a longtime businessperson. It's not helping you.

_Edited, as some of the material you were responding to has been removed. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I've done some pruning here, folks. Name-calling, use of the T-word, and ridicule have been expunged. Let's try to keep this on the rails so  authors don't lose their place to ask questions and give feedback and ireaderreview doesn't lose the right to answer questions about and defend his business.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

This is the official thread for Results from people who have actually used our services

I'd request admin to remove trolls and other people trying to derail the thread with false claims that 'there is no sign up link' or 'do you count visitors as subscribers'

It's becoming a witch hunt. The value to authors is only from authors who have actually used the service. For each of these authors I can demonstrate that

1) they haven't used our service
2) they are attacking us in various threads and doing a witch hunt

So the right thing to do would be to

separate out all posts by peoople who haven't used our services into some other thread named something like ' I've never used Books Butterfly but I have strong opinions' and let this thread focus on what it's supposed to be i.e.

Official Books Butterfly Thread with Actual Results

thank you very much


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

I would request that the admins of Kboards please corral the personal attacks and snarky remarks from books butterfly. They are attempting to be a vendor here and the comments are very disturbing. I can not imagine anyone doing business with them the way they talk with our authors.


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## CloudStrife (Oct 21, 2015)

I haven't used BooksButterly but I I've read a lot of the material here and I feel like there's a huge bias against their service. I think some people who were dissatisfied were very vocal about this and now we all have a negative bias.

Then, admittedly ireaderreview can be offputting - BUT the general tone here of authors is kind of egging it on. People on the boards are making pretty big claims against BooksButterfly without knowing how it really works. There's a general aggressive tone coming from authors, and most of us seem okay with that. But when ireaderreview is snarky, sarcastic, or what have you, he's not being "professional" or "businesslike". We're allowed to say whatever we feel like, but we expect him to be the Buddha?

I actually wasn't planning on using the service based on all the negative bias, but now that I've seen this I actually feel like we as Kboards should be ashamed at this. I think ireaderreview is handling all of this excellently, given whats been dished out at him. 

I actually like his responses, and I thought they generally made sense.

What gives us all the right to assume the worst, that he's out to screw authors? Why aren't we trying to find some of these people who had a good experience with BooksButterfly and hearing from them?

Why aren't we asking more neutral questions, instead of bashing him and his business before having the full information at hand?

We all mean well, but sometimes meaning well doesn't make it all end well, guys and gals.

(Prepares to get run off of Kboards for good...)


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Other than asking that people remain civil to each other, BB, no one can or should control who posts to a thread. Your responses to those who have or might have nor will never use your service tell as much if not more about you and your business as do the "results."


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

ireaderreview said:


> This is the official thread for Results from people who have actually used our services
> 
> I'd request admin to remove trolls and other people trying to derail the thread with false claims that 'there is no sign up link' or 'do you count visitors as subscribers'
> 
> ...


People have every right to ask questions and give their opinions on your answers to those questions, and then make judgments based on your answers. I understand defending yourself, but you've done that, repeatedly, and everybody understands your position at this point.

The poster in this thread who's giving you the worst reputation and driving the most people away from your service is you.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

To be absolutely clear, anyone can post in this thread, whether they have used Booksbutterfly or not, so long as they do so within our Forum Decorum -- on topic, with civility, and so forth. The thread does not belong to you alone, ireaderreview. It is a space where you may interact with the rest of the community with a specific focus on your business. Every single member of the forum has a equal right to post in this thread -- in fact, they have the greater right, as you are limited to once per week unless you are responding to others' comments, whereas there is no such limit for other members. As established elsewhere, people may not call you names, and they may not call Booksbutterfly a "scam." They may not ridicule you. But neither may you do these things. You may not call people trolls. That word is not allowed here. Ever. You may not call people liars. You may not describe strong, persistent questioning as a witch hunt. You may not attack people. Further posting along these lines will result in additional moderation actions.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

OK, let's start with this: they may not call Booksbutterfly a "scam."

Maalik went on a thread that had NOTHING to do with us, about some service that resulted in author's rank pulled, and warning given to author, and for no reason whatsoever, added

Books Butterfly is also a scam

and tried to create the false impression that working with us would result in similar dangers i.e. rank getting pulled

***********
Why is he not banned?

He's done this on 4 of our threads. No evidence. Just making claims like

Books Butterfly is a scam
It's flushing money down the toilet
etc.

without proof

*********************************************

There are authors here PRETENDING to be asking genuine questions. What they are really doing is trying to create a false impression that we don't have readers

Proof Page - https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/proof-4-million-readers/
The Proof page has screenshots for

Kindle Fire Apps
Apple Apps
Windows Apps
Email Lists

So there is no doubt about readers

Using a nonsensical line of 'where do we sign up for email lists' they are trying to create a negative impression. 
The rules of decorum should apply to both sides

Genuine Questions is fine. However, making an outright wrong claim and then pretending you don't understand the answer.

100% of these issues are resolved if the author goes to the website and actually reads our website (www.booksbutterfly.com). So why not choose that option? Why instead ask us to reproduce all that information on this thread, and then claim 'write it in 100 words'.

You want us to explain how 5.1 million customers get books in 100 words


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

Also, for reasonable authors and for our repeat customers

Please consider the following things

A) All these attacks are coordinated with hacking attacks and algorithm tweaks
All these attacks ALWAYS happen right after we've hit a new high in readers or revenue


B) Let's consider the times these threads start popping up VERSUS new high in readers (you can check dates yourself if you do Google search for kboards books butterfly)

Nov 2016 - new highest earning month
Dec 2016 - attacks on KBoards claiming we are not a Canadian company and that we don't honor guarantee

Mar 2017 - new highest earning month + we revealed that we'd grown to 5.1 million readers
Apr 2017 - attack on KBoards claiming we don't honor guarantee. Within 15 minutes person claiming that we did refund because of post. We didn't know about post for 2 weeks until we saw it show up on Google

Aug 2017 - new highest earning month
Sept 2017 - attacks on forums again

Oct 2017 - highest earning month ever
Oct end 2017 and Nov 2017 - attacks on KDP forum claiming we are not a Canadian company and now attacks on KBoards

****
Also these also coincidence with things like rank getting pulled for some promotion sites (according to authors it's irrespective of what promotion method you use, so far we haven't had any cases however if it's being done to other promotion sites it'll be done to us also sooner or later)

What are the changes all of this is happening all at the same time??

**********************************************************************

So SOMEONE or SOMETHING is egging on these attacks
At the exact same time that there are other things like rank being pulled for some promotion sites and promotion avenues (not us so far, however, it'll be done to all promotion sites)

At the exact same time that we are growing the fastest in both readers and earnings
Probably true for some other promotion sites too

It's all well and good to say Facebook Ads and AMS ads. However, most authors don't have the time or inclination to master those. Even the experts admit that if you aren't careful you'll end up spending $1 or more per click

Most good promotion sites are sold out for weeks or months and getting stronger with more and more readers

******************************************************

This is not some simple thing of a few authors being upset

We have 7 disputes out of last 2,700 promotion packages sold. Do we really believe that there are a set of authors who've never worked with us who suddenly decided right after our new best earnings month and our new best reader growth month to start attacking

No someone is egging them on, playing on their emotions

**************************************************

We have a new service launching. It's NEVER been on the Internet. URL is hidden. Only shared on email between Main Dev and me. No one else

Within ONE HOUR of email that there are new changes, there are people from one large tech company (you can guess which) checking the site. 

So why do they care enough to have someone checking 24/7 on new things we are working on + having hacked our email server??

*************************************************

Don't fall for all this. A lot of these authors are just being egged on by someone behind the scenes. There is some big tech company that has no attack vectors against us and other big promotion sites because now promotion sites are not dependent on them. So they are trying to create attack vectors

If you see one promotion site adding 2 million+ readers a year
another adding 1 million+ readers a year

And you're desperate to avoid the world of books being dominated by indie authors using free as marketing and $0.99 and $2.99 for sales

then you have to stoop to such things

It's called social engineering attacks and astroturfing. Except here they aren't trying to get a bank account. They are just finding what authors are most easily egged on. Then just tweak things a bit for those authors' promotions and voila - Site X doesn't work. Site Y doesn't work. Site Z is a scam etc. etc.

Check the last few weeks - every promotion site is getting badmouthed by some author or the other. even general posts about 'have promotion sites stopped working'? How do you know that it's not a social engineering attack? It's a simple tweak to make results bad and then let the upset author do the rest

*****************************************

For us it's in some ways to shut up and say nothing - less promotion sites there are, more business for us.

However, at some point you lose sustainability. Authors need multiple sites to get results. It's one thing if small sites get taken out. If the medium sites get taken out then everyone will start getting affected. And then they will come for the big sites

The end goal is to make us all serfs. don't forget that. You can dream up excuses. but the real end goal is to do Tragedy of the Commons and Divide and Conquer and have everyone working for pennies while SOMEONE OR SOMETHING makes a lot of money


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

It's getting late here, so I'm temporarily locking this, just for the North American overnight. Any attempts to take the argument to other threads will be looked upon with great dismay. <palms snowball and looks around severely>

unlocking with a warning: if this thread goes off the rails again, it may be locked permanently.

customers or prospective customers may ask questions and relate first person experiences. 
Members may not comment on things they have 'heard' or discussion elsewhere on the interwebs.
No one may refer to the service or site owner as 'scammy' or any other derogatory term, nor to 'scammer tactics' or anything of the sort.
The site owner may not accuse people relating their experience/perspective of lying or call them liars.
Specific issues with a specific customer should be handled OFF LINE and not adjudicated on these boards.
Posting statistics on sales/results with out the party's specific permission is not allowed.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

ddg said:


> I booked a $75 promo with them in August, but was unable to measure the results because several other promos ran the same day.
> This month I decided to run each promo on a separate day so results could be measured.
> With all other promo services, I see immediate results as soon as the ads go live. Books Butterfly claims that their results can be delayed by a day or so. That claim is idiotic.
> But never-the-less I played along and scheduled them for the final day of my free promo.
> ...


Good to know. I've heard nothing but negative things from a host of customers which leaves me wondering what's going on over at Books Butterfly.

Were you given a hard time about a refund, too?

_edited quoted post -- Ann_


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2017)

Hi DDG

1) we have no emails from you. Please email us what book it was and if it missed we'll be glad to give you store credit

2) Promotions vary in length from 3 to 5 days for Pure Gold (the $100 package)

3) what you state clashes

A) Books Butterfly claims that their results can be delayed by a day or so. That claim is idiotic.

B) But never-the-less I played along and scheduled them for the final day of my free promo.

If we have specified that algorithms do 8 to 16 hour delays and most of the downloads would happen on Day 2 and 3, then it makes no sense to schedule us on the last day of your promotion

4) We do not have 'a lot of customer problems' or anything of that sort

Attached are screenshots of dispute rate - 7 disputes in last 2,700 book promotion packages sold

************

Images for Number of Disputes










Link: https://www.booksbutterfly.com/images/LowDisputeRate.png

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2017)

Herefortheride

1) Please stop spreading misinformation

You write: I've heard nothing but negative things from a host of customers which leaves me wondering what's going on over at Books Butterfly.

I've attached the ACTUAL facts - dispute rate of 7 disputes from the last 2,700 promotion packages

*****************

DDG

1) you've signed up TODAY. And your sole post is claiming things that are completely false

A) We have no author who asked to run a $100 promotion for one day and the last day of his free run
B) We have no email from you saying you got zero results
C) As we have 200+ blogs and sites and Twitter Accounts and Apps, it's exceedingly simple to show an author where their book is promoted, if they were to contact us
D) We have no promotion package that is $75. https://www.booksbutterfly.com/ - you can check the site. Wasn't there in Aug. Isn't there now

*****************************

Please take a look at the image

1 dispute out of 400+ transactions in October 2017
7 disputes out of the last 2,700 book promotion packages sold

That completely negates these attacks based on misinformation

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

In what is becoming standard cautionary language, I'm stepping in to remind everyone that posts/threads regarding Books Butterfly must follow Forum Decorum. That means no insults or name-calling. Name-calling includes calling a site a "scam" or an individual a "scammer." The prohibition on insults and name-calling also precludes accusations of lying, conspiring, joining the forum just to attack, etc. All such material will be removed -- possibly via editing, possibly via deletion of the entire post.

Members are encouraged to post about their own personal experiences with Books Butterfly in a factual way. Hearsay is discouraged: please stick to what has happened to you. Members may ask tough questions. They may ask further questions about the answers they are given. Anonymous and/or new members may do these things.

Forum decorum also precludes "provoking or inciting comments" and "aggressive, relentless, or belligerent behavior." It requests kindness and respect for and from all members, as well as politeness and patience.

Private correspondence and confidential information should not be posted on the forum without permission.

_The secondary thread has been merged with the BooksButterfly vendor thread. Sorry for any confusion. -- Ann_


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2017)

ireaderreview you're doing yourself no favours by continuing to over-defend yourself here. I'm neither for, nor against you, or your services. I am interested in people's views, experiences and outcomes. It is NOT required for you to defend everything that is said in here. Most of us can make up our own minds as to what is going on without your repetition of your record.

This excerpt from Hamlet might clarify things for you.

_Hamlet then turns to his mother and asks her, "Madam, how like you this play?", to which she replies "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Gertrude (who seems to at least suspect that the queen in the play is a stand-in for her) is saying that the Player Queen is being too effusive._


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

@IRR I have no dog in the fight. I've yet to start using promos for my books but I will shortly and it's useful for me to get feedback from other authors about the various promo sites. I don't need to buy a promo with you to discuss this issue. I'm doing my due diligence and would hope you could treat kboards authors with respect.

_edited for tone -- Ann_


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Okay. I've removed 3 more posts . . . I don't have time to parse every sentence so if even one phrase or word comes across as name calling, the whole post is going to go.

irreaderreview: I know that Carrie, the board owner, has asked you to limit how you respond. Further, you have been asked to make a report when you feel that you are being maligned.

We do look at all reports and will act _if *we* feel that our board rules have not been followed._ Note, however, that someone saying, "I've heard a lot of bad things and I'm not comfortable using this service," is completely acceptable. People are allowed to draw conclusions and state them.

To the rest of you all: any posts that describe the service, or the site owner as scammy, or refer to spammer/scammy tactics or use any other derogatory terms will be deleted. Again -- we don't have time to parse it all, so the whole post will go.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2017)

Becca wrote: 

customers or prospective customers may ask questions and relate first person experiences. 
Members may not comment on things they have 'heard' or discussion elsewhere on the interwebs.

Ann in Arlington is writing:  Note, however, that someone saying, "I've heard a lot of bad things and I'm not comfortable using this service," is completely acceptable.

****
Please clarify what the forum rules are


Hearsay is hearsay. By allowing people to write hearsay and claim that it is fact you are breaking forum decorum rules. Or perhaps you can explain how it is OK to claim that there is something wrong with our service

And why you're allowing DDG who signed up yesterday and has just one post and all that post is, is false claims against us

Why does he get to make claims against us, without evidence

?

****

I have PROOF of just 7 disputes in the last 2,700 promotion packages sold

On the other hand we have HereForTheRide claiming

he's heard from a host of customers that they had problems
and insinuating that we are in trouble by writing - wonder what's going on at Books Butterfly

***
He's done this in every thread he can find about Books butterfly - 3 threads in the last week

****
I don't see any intent to be a customer. He's just sharing hearsay


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## Scrapper78 (Jun 11, 2017)

For the record, and to provide some balance to the discussion,  i have run two promotions with Books Butterfly and both performed as advertised.

I would not call them spectacular successes, but the company did what they said they would do and the guaranteed results were achieved.  I do not feel anythign was misrepresented and I received the services at a price that I agreed to. The second was for a full-priced book at 4.99, and the sales goal was met even then.

This does not invalidate any other criticisms by individuals who have had a different experience than I have, but this thread really has become little more than a shouting match between a few people who hate Books Butterfly and the company itself.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, folks,

We are locking this thread again pending discussion among the moderating staff.

Betsy
KB Mod


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