# Oyster - Netflix for books (apparently)



## Paul Hardy (Mar 11, 2011)

Haven't seen anyone else bringing this up, so may I have the pleasure of bringing this to your attention?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2013/09/05/oyster-launches-netflix-for-books/

Much of the content is to be from big publishers, but Smashwords have signed up too...

http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/09/smashwords-signs-distribution-agreement.html

Thoughts? Opinions? Screams of delight and/or agony?


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2013)

If I can get my books in front of more people, make money doing it, and at no additional cost...well, I'm all for it.


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## Dave Renol (Mar 4, 2013)

It sounds cool to me, but I didn't see any info on how much you would make per 'borrow'.

Dave


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## dkgould (Feb 18, 2013)

You mean I no longer have to sell my first born to cover my reading addiction?  I can read as many books as I want?  And it's not just western romances like my local library seems to stock to the exclusion of all else?  Where do I sign up?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

"Today Oyster launches its iPhone platform giving users 100,000 titles, from publishers like HarperCollins, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, Workman and self-publishing giant Smashwords, for $9.95 a month....

Stromberg and Van Lancker are tight lipped about how publishers or author (sic) get paid through the platform..."

Paging Mark Coker!


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Oyster is already live on the Smashwords channel manager. I just opted out my non-fiction.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I just saw Mark's link to that on Twitter and read the article (now read the Forbes one too - so thank you for that.)

I'm not sure.  I'm wary about it to be honest.  I tend to see subscription services as being about making money for the service at the expense of content providers, though I confess I'm under researched in this area.  I'm actually rather surprised to see that big publishers are taking part!  Given that they seem to hate giving libraries access to ebooks, I'm amazed that they've agreed to a subscription service!  

I'll wait to hear the royalties and a bit more about how it works.  If I'm still unsure, I'll opt out until I hear from others how it's going.


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## Paul Hardy (Mar 11, 2011)

dkgould said:


> You mean I no longer have to sell my first born to cover my reading addiction? I can read as many books as I want? And it's not just western romances like my local library seems to stock to the exclusion of all else? Where do I sign up?


You can sign up here: https://www.oysterbooks.com/ for $9.95 a month (presumably not for UK users.  )

Yep, it's that imminent.



Cherise Kelley said:


> Paging Mark Coker!


Indeed. And apparently it's going live in only 3 weeks. Anyone with books in their premium list get entered automatically...

Sudden is not a sudden enough word to describe this. NEED MORE DETAILS!

(although this has apparently been in the works for about a year or so: http://gigaom.com/2012/10/10/can-oyster-be-the-spotify-of-books-3m-investment-says-yes/)


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

***********


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I wonder how it works? Strange that SW is keeping the royalty piece a secret, makes me think perhaps subscribers won't be as thrilled as they say and that Oyster requested they keep it quiet until after the launch to avoid any negative publicity. Yes, feeling a bit cynical maybe.

That said, this could be interesting if you can pick and choose which books you'd like to include, such as the first in a series so you'd get the same benefit many qet with giving it away free.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

It just bugs me that we're opted-in by default to all of these things.

I'll be very curious to hear what I've been opted-into. Yes, I know I can opt-out.

Btw, SW, will my description at BN ever update?


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Thanks for the heads-up about it being in the Channel Manager already.  I've opted out for now, but I am open to changing my mind when I find out more.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Zelah Meyer said:


> Thanks for the heads-up about it being in the Channel Manager already. I've opted out for now, but I am open to changing my mind when I find out more.


You're welcome.

I, too, am alarmed that opting in is the default whenever a new distributor signs on. This is one of the reasons I read KB every day, but really we should at least be getting email notifications that give us a chance to opt out.


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## SandraMiller (May 10, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> but really we should at least be getting email notifications that give us a chance to opt out.


Yes, and a little sooner than 72 hours before shipments begin.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Hmmmm let's see 100,000 books on who knows what for $119 a year.  For that I would go with amazon prime and save $40.    I can find plenty of books in my preferred genres for much less than $10 a month.
Ok so truth be told my TBR is as tall as a couple of authors.


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## Skye Hunter (Apr 30, 2013)

Does Amazon have any problems with books listed there for $X being available to be rented in other places? Not sure if there's anything about that in their TOU.


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## dkgould (Feb 18, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Hmmmm let's see 100,000 books on who knows what for $119 a year. For that I would go with amazon prime and save $40. I can find plenty of books in my preferred genres for much less than $10 a month.
> Ok so truth be told my TBR is as tall as a couple of authors.


and if Amazon let me read as many books as I wanted in one month, I would stick with prime too (or even a more reasonable number than one) and pay more for it too. But for right now, at the rate I go through books it's an expensive pastime, even with prime and a library card. This seems awesome for me anyway. But yeah, if amazon takes notice, I'd definitely stick with prime. Especially because this Oyster program seems apple product only at the moment with no plans for other platforms at the moment.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Mark, I know you're out there, so please come answer our questions! Why wait to announce the terms if you're confident that we'll be happy?

And why is the default to opt us in to things, so we actually have to act to opt out? I'd much prefer to make my own decisions on my business, but right now I'm not being given the necessary information to make that choice.


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## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

yet another thing the publishers should have thought of and done themselves years ago.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

I am intrigued and would be more than happy to participate should the terms prove acceptable, and I would be grateful to Smashwords for the opportunity. 

That said, it is WRONG to automatically opt authors into a distribution network, especially without giving them any details first. I'm not okay with that.


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## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

I would like to add my vote for being opted out of new channels by default.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks for the heads up! I definitely will be watching. I like the idea, but need more information before I am comfortable.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Oyster is already live on the Smashwords channel manager. I just opted out my non-fiction.


GD it -- this is why I pulled most of my books from Smashwords. Going now to opt these out, give a few days to make sure it takes. UNpub the last of everything there and archive it. Default absolutely should be opt out. I have to other places I can now generate free coupons when I want to do that. Smashwords just lost the last of its utility, especially when stacked against default opt-ins.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

And I'm totally opposed to having my books in something like Spotify/Netflix.

Have a look at this graphic

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2010/how-much-do-music-artists-earn-online/


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Money issues aside.  I will not be joining Oyster because of the way they are treating authors.  It should be you have the option to opt in not contact us if you want out.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Cin - oyster isn't doing the automatic opt-in. Smashwords does that with ALL new channels and everyone who is on Smashwords should know that. The problem is we're often opted in before we're notified and there isn't a SINGLE SUBJECT email - rather it is frequently buried in with the regular newsletter and I don't want to scroll past the monthly Amazon bashing and non-scientific surveys in the newsletter to get to something that's actually relevant to my business.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

I honestly don't see how this could possibly be a bad thing. It sounds like it's pretty much an online library. I'm thinking the payment for 'borrows' will work similar to how it does in Select.

But yeah, it is kind of fishy why everyone is so secretive about things and they aren't going to send out an email until days upon the release of this new program. This doesn't give authors enough time to decide if this is something that will work for them. I'm also curious to know what Mark has to say about this...


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

Echo what everyone says here about Smashwords being so quiet about the terms and opting us in by default. Frustrating. I opted out but kept my free ones opted in. 

As a reader, I'm seriously thinking about signing up. I'll have to peruse the titles first.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Christa Wick said:


> And I'm totally opposed to having my books in something like Spotify/Netflix.
> 
> Have a look at this graphic
> 
> http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2010/how-much-do-music-artists-earn-online/


I think difference is that Amazon and self-publishing boom worked way better for writers and that gives some leverage when negotiating terms. I don't think there are many indy musicians as successful releasing their own albums, as there are writers. Thus they got worse royalties..

I might be wrong. But if Smashwords negotiates bad rates, they will get a lot of flack for it..

On a side note, Oyster releasing only iPhone app is strange, I don't read on iPhone, I read on iPad. Not having app for that is stupid.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2013)

emilycantore said:


> I'm very interested to see what the terms are. Also, I would like to know how this affects the TOS at places like Amazon. At $0.05 per read it could be argued I'm selling my work for five cents and Amazon has the right to price-match that.


Amazon could TRY that and promptly find themselves on the receiving end of a crapstorm of bad PR. According to MY TOS, Amazon can only price match based on the sale of my book. Oyster does not sell books. It sells a subscription service. They can no more "price match" a subscription than they can price match a library loaning my ebook for free. What Oyster actually pays me has no bearing on the issue, because my royalty from them is not the basis for price matching.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Based on the principle of never signing a contract you did not read.. I am opting out of this until I get details.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Oyster? Really? What a dumb name.   Opting out until we get more information.


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

emilycantore said:


> As a writer I can see that a subscription service like this could dramatically reduce my income. Instead of making ~$2 per sale I could be down at a few cents per customer. There would have to be a radical increase in reads to make up for the loss in income.


I don't think this would have a direct effect on sales. That assumes that every person who buys your book will instead sign up for Oyster and borrow it there. Instead, a small portion of people who buy your book will transfer and you will gain reads from many people who would have never otherwise read your book (hopefully).

I like how technical your post is, but I don't know if people will read 500 books a year. That's like a book and a half a day! People who sign up for this will be bigger readers than your typical American, but still. It makes sense, like you say, that they will charge royalties once a reader gets past a certain point in a book.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

emilyward said:


> I like how technical your post is, but I don't know if people will read 500 books a year. That's like a book and a half a day! People who sign up for this will be bigger readers than your typical American, but still. It makes sense, like you say, that they will charge royalties once a reader gets past a certain point in a book.


That depends on how they count. Do they count 1 page = 1 "credit to the author", 1 open = 1 credit, 1 hour = 1 credit? Or what? If its per open, you could hit 500 OPENS in a year, that is less then 2 opens per day. If its complete reads, then its more unlikely. 500 pages? No problem. 500 books? A small number of readers might hit that... but no the average reader.

We just don't know how they plan to count, or pay. Until Smash lets us in on the secret, its just guessing.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Dude. I consider myself a big reader (I read anywhere from 50 to 150 books per year, depending on what else I have going on), but 500 books in a year? There's no way I'd be able to do that, and I know I read way more than the average American.

So I really don't think 500 is a realistic number to include in the calculations unless it's based on opens rather than reads. Reads? Probably more like 50-100 would be the range you'd consider, and even that is considered a heavy reader. (I agree that the target audience for this service will be bigger readers than typical.)


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Amanda Brice said:


> Dude. I consider myself a big reader (I read anywhere from 50 to 150 books per year, depending on what else I have going on), but 500 books in a year? There's no way I'd be able to do that, and I know I read way more than the average American.
> 
> So I really don't think 500 is a realistic number to include in the calculations unless it's based on opens rather than reads. Reads? Probably more like 50-100 would be the range you'd consider, and even that is considered a heavy reader. (I agree that the target audience for this service will be bigger readers than typical.)


On short stories I think I OD'd last week when I read 50 or more in 5 days. Longer books take me anywhere from 1 day to 3 days. Now some take longer but that is because I am only reading them at certain times and for a very few minutes at a time. But my average is about 2 a week.
Provided I stay off of Kboards.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Apparently they buy at full price the book that is being rented if the reader reads more than 10% (ie more than a standard sample size), so I don't think we'll be losing any money on this as authors.

As a reader, I don't know. I'd have to see what books and authors were available and if the selection was good enough and in my tastes enough to be worth it.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Doomed Muse said:


> Apparently they buy at full price the book that is being rented if the reader reads more than 10% (ie more than a standard sample size), so I don't think we'll be losing any money on this as authors.


Where are you getting this information?


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

OK, I agree with you there, although I rarely make it anywhere near close to the length of a sample. If I'm reading a full sample, I'm reading the book. If you don't hook me in the first 2 or 3 pages, I'm not continuing. Often I don't even give 2 pages. More like 2 paragraphs.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Keep in mind, services like this one make their money off non-readers, not heavy readers. $10 a month is a lot to me, but to many in America its nothing. They spend more that in a day at Starbucks. So it becomes a nuisance charge. Not enough to make them drop even if they do not use it all that much because "next month they will find time to read" Its just like the big gym chain that charges $10 a month for membership and sits mostly empty most of the time... small reoccurring charges for a large volume of people who will likely not use the service much at all.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Except, David, the First Sale Doctrine doesn't apply to the digital world, only to tangible copies of the content. So video stores can buy copies of the movies and rent them out to their heart's content without reaching any kind of agreement with the content provider, but that doesn't apply to streaming video.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> Apparently they buy at full price the book that is being rented if the reader reads more than 10% (ie more than a standard sample size), so I don't think we'll be losing any money on this as authors.....


Reiterating the request for your source because I think you're reading it wrong. Is it what Emily quoted from Mark:

From Smashwords Mark says "Smashwords authors will earn their royalty whenever an Oyster subscriber reads more than a sample of their book."

Royalty means the miniscule Oyster royalty, which Smash will then take their 15% out of.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

David Stephens said:


> It seems to me that they have no obligation to pay the copyright holder anything, under the First Sale Doctrine. It would be exactly the same as Netflix. Although they may make deals with distributors to get large quantities of product, Netflix could just as easily buy the DVDs and rent them out to their heart's content. That's what Blockbuster and all the independent stores did for years.


Doesn't work that way with digital. MP3's, ebooks, movie downloads: You don't own any of these. You license them.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Doesn't work that way with digital. MP3's, ebooks, movie downloads: You don't own any of these. You license them.


And more to the point, this all has to do with the ease of making copies. Whereas in the tangible world, First Sale Doctrine applies and consumer isn't violating any of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder if she sells, rents, or gives away her copy because there's always just one copy. When I lend it to a friend, I don't have it in my possession anymore. She does. When I "lend" a copy of an ebook to a friend (other than using Amazon's lending system) I'll still have a copy on my computer, plus new copies have been created during the transmission process through email, and when she opens that email to download it to her computer, another copy, etc. So you've now violated the copyright holder's exclusive right to make copies, plus when you send yours to your friend, you've also violated the exclusive right of distribution (because although you consider it as a lend, you actually created new copies and distributed those).

Each of those copies are perfect, with no degradation from the original, whereas that print book not only is just one copy, but will eventually fall apart at some point, or cease to be perfect.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Exactly. I know some people get upset about the not actually owning part, but it does make sense and is the only way to protect creators and publishers of digital content.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

So, three groups that can't seem to get it right, get together with people who used to work for a group that used to get it right, but these days not so much, to do something with other peoples work to make a profit for themselves? And they aren't going to give the providers of that content the information they need to make an informed, thoughtful decision about whether or not to REMAIN opted in until the last second?

I suggest everyone opt out immediately, and force Smashwords to disclose the details.

I wouldn't touch this with a ten kilometer pole.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

This will not be good. Authors need to kill this before it breeds.


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

Thankfully I don't go through Smashwords, but I agree, this is ultimately awful for authors. Do you realise what percentage of tech savvy music listeners now go through Spotify for the vast bulk of their music listening? When we self publish ebooks, we're naturally targeting a slightly more progressive, tech savvy audience, and those are exactly the sort of people that jump to a streaming service in droves. It will be especially appealing for the heavy romance readers who consume twenty books a month, and those are the people driving a lot of sales in that genre for indies (we're not being found by the moms who buy a book or two a month by big names, we're being found by hungry readers who ravenously search for more). And as everyone has pointed out, there's no reason to assume the royalty rates will be much better than Spotify, that is to say, essentially nothing.

This worries me a lot.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Katie Elle said:


> This will not be good. Authors need to kill this before it breeds.


Unfortunately, while self-publishers are in a position to not enroll their books, authors traditionally published generally cannot. This likely falls under subsidiary rights in most trad contracts, allowing the publisher to make the deal with Oyster and pay the author whatever split the subsidiary rights section calls for.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

I stopped uploading to SW a long time ago because the interface irritated me so much. Luckily, I only have two books there right now, and I made sure to opt out on both of them. 

Not cool. Not cool at all.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Christa Wick said:


> Unfortunately, while self-publishers are in a position to not enroll their books, authors traditionally published generally cannot. This likely falls under subsidiary rights in most trad contracts, allowing the publisher to make the deal with Oyster and pay the author whatever split the subsidiary rights section calls for.


Walked away from a deal due to this very issue. The subsidiary rights clause said that the publisher could unilaterally negotiate such deals, and my lawyer pointed at out that a scenario similar to this one could evolve. Guess it's time to buy her a beer.

*looks at hourly rate*

Never mind, she can buy her own beer. : )

B.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

LOL, B.

I would say at least send her an email acknowledging "You called it!" but if any client communication is billed, you would get hit for 6 minutes/one-tenth of an hour. 

So nice to not live in six-minute increments anymore.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

I do wonder what impact this will have on smaller retailers like allromanceebooks, bookstrand, coffeetimeromance, etc. Will something like this draw away enough of their buyers to eliminate their profit margin?

The only thing I'll say positive about this is the required sample trigger. I could imagine a lot of downloads that went unread (just like with freebies on Amazon) just because they saw it and thought they might want to read it but never did. Whenever you're talking free and subscriptions, you get a lot of hoarding behavior on the consumer's end. That would be highly detrimental to the producers (authors) because it would seriously dilute the value of a download, while not being very detrimental to Oyster (beyond bandwidth costs) because they have a set pool from which they'll pay royalties and they don't care if they split it a million ways or ten million ways. This methodology will avoid that. However, if it's based on the smashwords sample, those of you not opting out should consider reducing your sample size to the smallest permissible.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

I just opted out. I think I am just going to pull my stuff from Smashwords altogether this weekend.


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## AriadneW (Feb 16, 2013)

I have opted my books out until such time as I get more information to make the decision on whether to include them or not. Opting in by default isn't cool especially without the details.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Those of you opting out (I just did!), I would recommend emailing customer service and explaining why you opted out, that until such time as they disclose the details you simply cannot make an informed decision and don't appreciate the auto-opt-in.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Ultimately, it's the user base that determines success. Traditional publishers might push content onto it, but if a million people are using it that's nothing. Amazon gets over a hundred and fifty million hits _per day_. Google gets over a billion per day. A million people translates into, what, 100,000 science fiction fans? There's so many genres that the audience segmentation makes their actual subscription base even smaller.

I agree with not signing a contract until the terms are disclosed. But I'm also not interested in a venue until I know how many seats it has.

Subscription based service sounds nice, but how have they addressed discoverability? I own a kindle and not a nook because I can't find new books on BN.com. I owned an iPod and not a Zune for the same reason.

"Spotify of Books" will generate some press; it sounds catchy, but Amazon has solved hundreds of issues with their interface, ranking, and customer service that these smaller companies ignore.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Amanda Brice said:


> Those of you opting out (I just did!), I would recommend emailing customer service and explaining why you opted out, that until such time as they disclose the details you simply cannot make an informed decision and don't appreciate the auto-opt-in.


I'm waiting a few days for the opt-outs (they also had me in for flipkart and on one title for Axis) to take hold then unpubbing and archiving everything (I'm direct on Apple, BN, Kobo, and had opted out everything anyway, just using them for coupons, which I'll now use Tomely for). Then I'll send the letter to CS about why I left the platform completely. I'm pretty sure Smash will say "No f***s given."


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're not going to care about individual authors, but if a sizeable number of authors each email with the exact same explanation hopefully it will encourage them to disclose the financial details of the deal sooner. I doubt it will do anything about the automatic opt-in for the future, but hope does spring eternal.


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

While I get where the worriers are coming from, I don't think it's a horrible thing for authors. Think about it, right now at a library, readers can get books for free in any format they want, though they may have to wait for longer ones, and libraries only inspire more reading. With this app, you may not be waiting but you're paying, plus the demographic is limited to the ebook reading population and on top of that, those who read on iOS devices. Some will still prefer the one-click system that delivers to the Kindle or Nook, the recommendations of Amazon or their preferred retailer, supporting individual authors, etc.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

I understand the rationale, Emily -- I just don't agree with its application here. What if Smashwords decided to opt everyone in to an ISBN *purchase* upon uploading a title? Different, you say perhaps, because they'd be charging me money? Qualitatively, not different to me because my rights are being affected in the form of distribution to libraries that I may not wish to authorize, etc. What if Amazon default opted in each new book to Select?


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2013)

emilycantore said:


> Time to bust out those back-of-the-envelope calculations...
> 
> Each customer is worth $119.4 per year. Year one they have 1 million customer and make $119, 400, 000.
> 
> ...


Interesting, but that 500 number seems extremely high. Even if you personally are the kind of person who would sample/read that many books in a year, assuming that all the subscribers will be like you is fallacious.

Let's look at it this way. What's the average payout per borrow on the KDP Select program? None of my books are enrolled, but last I heard it was about $2. So, using all your other "back of the envelope" numbers, for us to get paid $2 per "borrow" (however you want to define it, let's stick with your definition >25% read for the sake of argument), then the subscribers would have to read/sample/borrow no more than 39,290,000 books per year. At one million subscribers, that's 40 books per year.

Is 40 more reasonable than 500? Well, according to the Pew Research Center, the average number of books read per year among American book readers (defined as Americans 16+ who read all or part of a book/ebook/audiobook in the past 12 months) was 15, and the median was only 6. That's a far cry from 500, and much lower even than 40.

Obviously, a subscription book service is likely to skew towards the higher end of that, but still, if I'm a reader who's used to paying full tradpub prices for hardbacks and trade paperbacks, the $9.95 per month looks like an attractive price even if I'm only an average book reader (in other words, 15 books per year). And even if I am one of those readers who exhausts the free/cheap options for books (such as libraries, used bookstores, online book swaps, indies, etc), a subscription service would still look attractive if it gives me immediate access to the books that are "hot" and haven't yet dribbled down to the free/cheap avenues.

In other words, I don't think it's unreasonable at all for this program to pay on parity with KDP Select borrows, or ~$2 per read. From what I've read on the Smashwords blog and website, it seems that they've negotiated (or are negotiating) a fixed rate, rather than the convoluted percentage-of-the-pool calculation that KDP Select uses. I don't know what that number is going to be, but I'd be very surprised if it represents a significant threat to my current level of income.

Let's calm down, guys, and not jump to conclusions until we have more information about this. To me, it looks like a potential opportunity.


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## journeymama (May 30, 2011)

emilycantore said:


> Smashwords (and many other places) use automatic opt-in and manual opt-out because manual opt-in rates are _terrible_. And they're not terrible because X is a bad deal but because complexity puts people off.
> 
> _Most_ people go with the default setting. This is why it is called default.
> 
> ...


I get this, but we self-publishers are business people, not consumers, so we research everything and pay close attention to detail. A case in point is the new Matchbook program at Amazon, which wasn't an automatic opt-in, but which many of us saw right away. I'm willing to bet that many, many self-publishers immediately opted in *if they wanted to be a part of the program*.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

emilycantore said:


> Time to bust out those back-of-the-envelope calculations...
> 
> Each customer is worth $119.4 per year. Year one they have 1 million customer and make $119, 400, 000.
> 
> ...


Using your own numbers and assuming 50 reads per month  year per user, which is a more reasonable assumption imho, thats over $1.50 per read. Not bad when you consider that it's for every read, so if a reader wants to read a book again the following year, you get paid again.

Personally, I think it will be based on the cost of the book. I'm going to say 30% because, in my head, it makes sense.

It's also silly to consider that books are like music. A subscriber listening to music can listen to 20 three minute songs per hour, and many music lovers listen to music for six or seven hours per day. Readers are different. Most people would be lucky to read 10,000 words in a day, which translates to a short every day or a novel every week. Really good readers can read 30 or 40K words per day, but they are probably in the minority and there are very few who would devote five or six hours every day to reading.

Edit: Silly mistakes complately change the meaning of a post *sigh*


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Herc - where are you getting 1.5 a read?

50 books a month per reader = 600 a year. Subscription fee of 119.4 per year -- cut 30% off the top to start with for Oyster's cut. Divide remainder by 600 reads, then cut off Smash's 15% = 12 cents a read. 

Granted, I don't think a reader will read the whole of 50 books a month, but they only have to read beyond the sample, at absolutely no risk to them, reject it (but have it still count as a read for purposes of the fee generated for the author) shortly thereafter and move onto another one. Readers can be very indiscriminate about the books they download and partially read (beyond the sample). So I'm not going to argue with the 50 a month/600 a year. I just don't see how you get to 1.5 a read.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2013)

emilycantore said:


> It appears people are misreading. I did not say 500 books per year per person. I said 500 opens. As is again noted at the bottom of my post.
> 
> Oyster are paying once a certain percentage of the book is passed. If I had to guess I'd say 20%. Perhaps less on long titles.
> 
> Given the reader makes no purchasing decisions I'd imagine the abandon rate would be high. I already abandon books I've paid for. When it costs only a subscription I barely have any buyer's remorse to keep me going.


No, I'm taking that into account. That's why I'm using 40 as the baseline instead of 15, which unlike any of your numbers is actually supported with data.

Considering how all of the numbers in your "back of the envelope" calculation are basically pulled out of thin air, I hardly think you're in a position to tell other people to "stick with what is, not imaginary scenarios."


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

emilycantore said:


> And what if the moon were cheese? Stick with what is, not imaginary scenarios. You're not being automatically opted in to something that costs money.


Exactly.

Everyone is running around with worse-case scenarios in their heads, and that's not likely to happen. For all the faults I might be able to find with the Smashwords site, and whatever disagreements about the industry I might or might not have with Mark Coker, the man has shown time and time again to have what he feels are the best interests of indie authors at heart. Yes, he might not run his company and site exactly the way every single one of us wants, but that's reality, that's the business world, and that's life. Besides, it's _his _business, and it's one that doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want. Automatic opt-ins are so common, I do not understand why this seems to be a shock to so many.

I mean, come on people. Writing for a career (or trying to) isn't just art and fun and games. It's a business. We don't all get everything we want, and we have to be flexible enough to deal with new situations when they arise. _And_ we have to pay attention to the details, on a regular basis. KDP and SW and NookPress and Kobo and Tomely and whatever else aren't Facebook or twitter where you can just pay attention when you want. These are _business _sites, and it's your _money _that is involved in the details.

As for Oyster itself, if it becomes the new Spotify or Netflix or whatever, then so be it. Opt out. Don't provide your books there. Then when even Amazon joins the ranks of e-book subscription services, and they will if they think it'll be the new big thing, opt out of that, too. That's fine. Others' books will continue to sell while you're sulking about the industry turning against you, or whatever it is indies are sulking about this week. Because, make no mistake, _if _subscription services are the next big thing for e-books and indie authors, then to not play ball will mean to fall behind and be left by the wayside.

It might not happen. For whatever reason, readers might not be interested in subscription services for e-books, but that hasn't been the case with other forms of entertainment.

I'm not suggesting someone should opt in to Oyster at SW. Or not. But I am suggesting we wait and see what happens and make individual, logical _business _decisions before throwing in the towel.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Christa Wick said:


> Unfortunately, while self-publishers are in a position to not enroll their books, authors traditionally published generally cannot. This likely falls under subsidiary rights in most trad contracts, allowing the publisher to make the deal with Oyster and pay the author whatever split the subsidiary rights section calls for.


Yet another reason to celebrate owning the stuff we write.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

Christa Wick said:


> Herc - where are you getting 1.5 a read?
> 
> 50 books a month per reader = 600 a year. Subscription fee of 119.4 per year -- cut 30% off the top to start with for Oyster's cut. Divide remainder by 600 reads, then cut off Smash's 15% = 12 cents a read.


Oops, made an error in the previous post. I meant 50 books _per year_. Your assumption of 500 books per year yielded $0.15 (or there abouts). I assume that people will read, on average, one tenth that. Therefore, the average payment per book will be 0.15 x 10 = $1.50. Even if it averages out to 100 books per year, that's still $0.75 per read, which is bordering on okay. (I still reckon a percentage based on price will be the way they will go. The optimist in me says 30%, the pessimist says 15%)

It's difficult for me to imagine your average subscriber reading more than 10 books per month. Sure, some will read a book a day, but others will read one or two books per month.

Only time will tell.


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

Christa Wick said:


> Unfortunately, while self-publishers are in a position to not enroll their books, authors traditionally published generally cannot. This likely falls under subsidiary rights in most trad contracts, allowing the publisher to make the deal with Oyster and pay the author whatever split the subsidiary rights section calls for.


I don't think this will fall under a subsidary right. What is being consumed is an ebook. So the total income paid from Oyster to the publisher will be split under whatever royalty rate is in the contract for ebooks (usually 25% of net).


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

Hugh Howey posted this on his facebook, it might be helpful in figuring out how much we're likely to make.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2013)

I think people are working from faulty assumptions, here. Folks are assuming that everyone who subscribes to this sort of service will be a voracious reader. The average reader only reads 16 books a year (the median, when you remove the outliers, is actually only 6). 500 is a completely unrealistic number. If you want to assume the Pew Institute is wrong simply because your sister reads 10 books a week, fine. We can be generous and assume the average is 50 books a year if that makes people feel better. But in either case, if you look at the subscription model, it is clearly based on "normal" readers who are reading a dozen books a year, not people reading hundreds of books.

In fact, one could argue that the people MOST likely to sign up for a subscription service will be those who read the least. The comparison to a gym membership is a good one. People join gyms not because they are crazy into exercise. They join gyms to force themselves to get into shape. It is also similar to things like Sam's Club or BJ's. People get these memberships telling themselves they will use it to buy in bulk and save. After the initial new-membership shines wears off, the average wholesale club member only goes to the wholesale store eight times a year. So you have a similar situation here. People who want to read more but currently don't will be the ones most likely to sign up because they will see it as an easy way to meet their resolution to read more.

Further, people who are "locked in" to an ereader (like those with a Kindle or a Nook) are not going to abandon their current reading habits to jump to a subscription service that won't work with their reader. I'm not going to get a subscription to XBox Live if I own a PS3. Nor would I buy an Xbox just to get a subscription to XBox Live if I am already playing all of my games on the PS3. I'm only going to jump ship if XBox has content I cannot get on the PS3. It is the same thing with this. People are not going to abandon their normal shopping habits to go elsewhere unless they are getting stuff they can't get normally.

So I think the readers you pick up with this are going to be a completely different demographic, not cannibalizations of base demographics. To that end, opting out in a panic seems silly. You are leaving money on the table. If we assume these are new readers and not cannibalized readers from other sources (which I strongly believe is the case based on on eleven years working in contract packaging and reading consumer demographic reports), then this is akin to free money in my opinion. These are people that you aren't reaching normally.

Finally, Mark said on the blog yesterday that we would earn our normal royalty on these reads. Now obviously we don't know what that actual royalty is yet. BUT if we assume something similar to the Axis program (which supplies libraries) we will probably be looking at 40%-45%. Now if I go into Select, which requires exclusivity, and someone borrows my $5.99 book, I make $1.50-$2? My payment is a flat amount based on Amazon's total number of borrows divided into whatever they decide to set their pot at for the month (which works great I guess if you have a 99 cent book and get $1.50 on a borrow, but is actually a reduction for those of us who price normally). With this, I don't have to give anyone an exclusive contract, and I earn $2.39 with each read regardless of the total number of reads or any fluctuating shared pool of money.

I just don't see the downside here that others do. I don't have to sign an exclusive contract. I'm reaching readers I would not normally reach. It's a new outlet to spread my risk around. I don't get the concerns.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> I don't think this will fall under a subsidary right. What is being consumed is an ebook. So the total income paid from Oyster to the publisher will be split under whatever royalty rate is in the contract for ebooks (usually 25% of net).


Actually, I do think it will be considered a subsidiary right, because it's somewhat analogous to the old book clubs, which are considered a subsidiary right.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think people are working from faulty assumptions, here. Folks are assuming that everyone who subscribes to this sort of service will be a voracious reader. The average reader only reads 16 books a year (the median, when you remove the outliers, is actually only 6). 500 is a completely unrealistic number. If you want to assume the Pew Institute is wrong simply because your sister reads 10 books a week, fine. We can be generous and assume the average is 50 books a year if that makes people feel better. But in either case, if you look at the subscription model, it is clearly based on "normal" readers who are reading a dozen books a year, not people reading hundreds of books.
> 
> In fact, one could argue that the people MOST likely to sign up for a subscription service will be those who read the least. The comparison to a gym membership is a good one. People join gyms not because they are crazy into exercise. They join gyms to force themselves to get into shape. It is also similar to things like Sam's Club or BJ's. People get these memberships telling themselves they will use it to buy in bulk and save. After the initial new-membership shines wears off, the average wholesale club member only goes to the wholesale store eight times a year. So you have a similar situation here. People who want to read more but currently don't will be the ones most likely to sign up because they will see it as an easy way to meet their resolution to read more.
> 
> ...


^this and all of this +1000000%. I don't understand why everyone is panicking and making false assumptions over information that we barely know yet. Mark hasn't said anything yet, and I think we should wait and see what he says first before we just out and reject it.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

RM Prioleau said:


> ^this and all of this +1000000%. I don't understand why everyone is panicking and making false assumptions over information that we barely know yet. Mark hasn't said anything yet, and I think we should wait and see what he says first before we just out and reject it.


Agree. BUT...we all know how notoriously slow Smashy is getting books to and pulling books from vendors. And we know the vendors are notoriously slow to post books and changes to books on their sites. If you're automatically opted in and the terms are unfavorable and you decide to opt out later, there's no guarantee whatsoever your book(s) will be pulled from the site in a timely fashion. In fact, that would be the exception. I'd rather opt out until I understand what the terms are, then opt in.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

I actually think it could be a very good thing. That being said, until such time as he announces the terms so that I have the information with which to make an informed decision, I have opted out.

He already has all the information. He knows the terms. He says they're good, but why isn't he announcing them? Why all the cloak and dagger secrecy of waiting until 72 hours before the first shipments? That suggests to me that perhaps the terms aren't all that great and they want to minimize the possiblity of people choosing to opt out and that they just decide to stay in because oops! Their book has shipped so might as well just leave it there now since everyone knows it's a PITA to get changes done through SW. If books get shipped and an author later wants out because the terms are unfavorable, it could easily take months before those books are down from Spotify, er, I mean Oyster and during that time the author would be earning royalties, sure, but if he didn't want in in the first place because of unfavorable terms,  then the distribution is against her wishes.

Tell us the terms. Let us make informed business decisions.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

What Saul and Amanda said. I want to know what the terms are before I sign up for this. I read the TOS at the various vendor sites before I signed up there, so why should I treat this option any differently?


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

Amanda Brice said:


> He already has all the information. He knows the terms. He says they're good, but why isn't he announcing them? Why all the cloak and dagger secrecy of waiting until 72 hours before the first shipments?


There could be several legitimate reasons for this.

Because businesses don't want their competition to know what they're up to until the last minute. Or maybe some final details are still being worked out, so it's not safe for Coker to say just yet. Or maybe it's a contractual thing that he can't say more until a few days before.

At least Coker let us know what's coming. Does Amazon give us such information? No. They drop stuff on indie writers all the time. And they don't give us a preview, or ask our opinions, or seek our advice, and they sure as heck don't seek our blessing.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

I know some writers who have over 100 titles (one has almost 200+), plus there are "small" presses that use SW for Sony and several other platforms that won't take most small presses direct. These "small" presses have in the thousands. Smashwords & Oyster are "generously" giving them "at least 72 hours" to opt out before books start shipping (hint to smashwords, they're all opting out now).


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

So only for iphones for starters and a plan for a ipad app in fall. They have no concrete plans to launch on platforms beyond i-thingies. That is pretty limiting for readers. 

I am amazed at those that read 100's of samples a year.  . I'd rather read full books. Just me though, I don't really read samples at all and if I do, I read the full book and just buy it from the kindle. 

This would only be interesting to me if one could read the books on e-ink or at least other than i-thingies. I don't do i-thingies. And it would depend on what publishers participate and what books they would be offering. If its the same selection than I already have access too on overdrive through my libraries, that its not that good. 

Interesting though.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> I actually think it could be a very good thing. That being said, until such time as he announces the terms so that I have the information with which to make an informed decision, I have opted out.
> 
> He already has all the information. He knows the terms. He says they're good, but why isn't he announcing them? Why all the cloak and dagger secrecy of waiting until 72 hours before the first shipments? That suggests to me that perhaps the terms aren't all that great and they want to minimize the possiblity of people choosing to opt out and that they just decide to stay in because oops! Their book has shipped so might as well just leave it there now since everyone knows it's a PITA to get changes done through SW. If books get shipped and an author later wants out because the terms are unfavorable, it could easily take months before those books are down from Spotify, er, I mean Oyster and during that time the author would be earning royalties, sure, but if he didn't want in in the first place because of unfavorable terms, then the distribution is against her wishes.
> 
> Tell us the terms. Let us make informed business decisions.


Well said.

Who is panicking, Julie? I'm going to the beach.

When Mark deigns it reasonable to share the details of the deal, I'll take a look. Show me the money.

B.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2013)

How high really is the samples-to-reads ratio for the typical reader?  We already know that the typical reader reads, on average, only 15 books, so for the total of reads and samples to reach 500, there'd have to be a whopping 33 books sampled for every book finished.  If the books are free, why would a reader leave so many books only half-read?  

Readers can tell if a book isn't to their tastes after reading just a few paragraphs or chapters.  Even if it only takes +25% of a book to count as a read/sample/borrow/whatever, I really don't think the typical reader is going to knock up anywhere close to 500 books per year--because remember, there's no risk; no cost for reading beyond the sample.

Seriously, that number is the most imaginary thing I've seen in this thread.


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## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

Ty Johnston said:


> At least Coker let us know what's coming. Does Amazon give us such information? No. They drop stuff on indie writers all the time. And they don't give us a preview, or ask our opinions, or seek our advice, and they sure as heck don't seek our blessing.


Amazon has never intentionally signed anyone up for anything without asking. Select was opt-in, not opt-out. Matchbook is opt-in, not opt-out. All intentional non-price-matched price reductions are apparently done with the author's permission. What more do you want?

Opt-in rates are always low and people have huge mental inertia to overcome. Amazon still manages to make everything opt-in and they seem to be doing just fine. In the olden days, they even used to contact an author before price-matching to free even though they had every right to just do it.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Amanda Brice said:


> I actually think it could be a very good thing. That being said, until such time as he announces the terms so that I have the information with which to make an informed decision, I have opted out.
> 
> He already has all the information. He knows the terms. He says they're good, but why isn't he announcing them? Why all the cloak and dagger secrecy of waiting until 72 hours before the first shipments? That suggests to me that perhaps the terms aren't all that great and they want to minimize the possiblity of people choosing to opt out and that they just decide to stay in because oops! Their book has shipped so might as well just leave it there now since everyone knows it's a PITA to get changes done through SW. If books get shipped and an author later wants out because the terms are unfavorable, it could easily take months before those books are down from Spotify, er, I mean Oyster and during that time the author would be earning royalties, sure, but if he didn't want in in the first place because of unfavorable terms, then the distribution is against her wishes.
> 
> Tell us the terms. Let us make informed business decisions.


This is my stance to.


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm wondering about how this will work with free books. I'm figuring there will be no royalty for a free book, but I don't like the idea that Oyster will be making money off my free book. I know other retailers do make money off my free book, but it is rather circuitous, while this is a pretty straight line. If I opt in my free book, I'm giving Oyster permission to make money off me without compensating me. Now, I made my first book free to spur purchases of the rest of the series. If I opt in the rest of my series, then yes, I would likely make some royalties, but without knowing what the royalty rate will be, I could be really hurting my possible income level. 

But the idea that Oyster will make money off my free book is really irksome. I don't like that at all. It's one thing to allow Amazon, iTunes and others to give the book away. They are not making money at the point of purchase. The customer will make both of us money with the purchase of the next book. Oyster doesn't need to worry about that. I'm really struggling with this notion. I haven't pulled my books yet, but I will be reading Smashword's email very carefully when it is sent.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

First, I don't care about manual opt in conversion rates, this was a sleazy move by Smashwords.  We're not talking just another retail outlet...this is an entirely different business model, and auto-enrolling everyone when you have been very quiet as far as announcements and details is not a good way to do business.  Honestly, since SW itself accounts for a blistering 1/1500th of my sales, the thread they're hanging by right now is my having to do the work to go direct to Apple.  

How about you blast out details on something you're opting everyone into with the same energy you whine about Amazon (who has never behaved this way...note their new program, which they announced, provided full details about, and then allowed authors to decide and opt in).  I guess Amazon doesn't live in the same world of poor manual opt in rates.

I don't like business associates I need to keep my eye on 24/7 because they can't be trusted.  

As for those thinking this is likely to be any kind of significant revenue source, I'd think again.  The number of reads has been vastly overstated.  Someone it it right on the head...services like this make a lot of their money on people who sign up and forget.  Like health clubs.  They make this money, but the authors don't.  

Books are not like music.  With music, you have a certain, very finite number of songs and you listen to them many times.  With books, for the most part, you want a steady stream of new ones.  

I don't see the appeal of this.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Sorry for the wall of text, but there was an interesting open letter posted on Oyster's Tumblr page:



> September 6, 2013
> 
> *A Preface*
> 
> ...


http://readoyster.tumblr.com/post/33266414476/a-preface

The Founders Fund is kind of a big deal in investment banking. I know they were early investors in Paypal, Facebook, and Spotify. So, Oyster is one to watch. But their vague wording about author compensation leaves me somewhat perplexed.

B.

ETA:

From their Twitter page (https://twitter.com/oyster) I have learned:

1. Their service only appears to be available on iPhones.

2. They had some issue with reaching the iPad, and they have no Android app.

3. Consumers cannot learn the content of the Oyster library until after they sign up.

4. They are not an international service. (They are only operating in the US market.)

5. They are windowing titles. "We tend to secure rights to our books between 60-120 days after publication date"

The last one should catch a few ojos. And on the day the judge announces her judgement. What incredible timing. :/


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Sorry to say, but that wall of text really told me nothing. I don't see how this changes "access" to, and "discoverability" of, books.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

LOL, that was a lot of malarky (the open letter).

eta: for clarity. sorta


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

> Authors deserve to be paid for their works. But *authors also deserve to have their books treated in a way that reflects the care they put into their writing.*


Yes, by generating a royalty to the author, tyvm. A real royalty. If readers can pick however many titles they want per month, thinking we're getting something 40-45% of list price for each download by an oyster user is a pipe dream, IMO.

And a lot of the numbers being bandied about are forgetting downloads include short stories. I've got 6,000 word erotic shorts I've made thousands on each selling 2.99. A reader can fap through 4 of those in an hour. Then there are short story anthologies. I love author X, she has over 300 short stories and has been in over 50 anthologies. I usually don't care for what other authors are in the antho -- I just want to read hers. I download 6 such anthologies from Oyster and journey past the sample cut-off to find her story (also around 6k words each) then close the title and move onto the next of those 6 anthos. 1.5 hours, 6 titles consumed. Hey, I'm a student, too -- I have to read this chapter from such and such a book and that chapter...all of them past the sample cut off. Three hours -- 10 titles consumed.

There are a lot of reading patterns out there. People shouldn't think their pattern is the universally applicable one.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

My objection is I only found out about this by diligently reading KBoards.

Smashwords should have emailed us all to tell us specifically about opting us into this.

Opt-in notifications should not be buried in a chatty newsletter.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

> Currently, people buy books online in the exact same way that they buy lamps, blenders, and kitchen knives. The process of finding your next book is very different from purchasing a knife, and it should be treated that way.


I am trying to figure out how the processes are different. I want a lamp that looks good and does its job. I want a blender that does its job. I want a knife that will preferably cut stuff up but not cut me. So I look at the details of all of those things to see which works best for me. (well I still haven't found that knife but) I want a book that entertains or teaches me something so I look at the details of several books to see which one or more fits my needs. 
Same exact idea.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> My objection is I only found out about this by diligently reading KBoards.
> 
> Smashwords should have emailed us all to tell us specifically about opting us into this.
> 
> Opt-in notifications should not be buried in a chatty newsletter.


This. This. And this.

100%.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Frankly, it's pretty much DOA because it doesn't support Kindle.

I opted out until I know more. Whether or not it's poor form for Smashwords to opt it in automatically is a moot point, IMO. Although 72 hours and all the secrecy doesn't promise anything good, far a I can see. Perhaps it's all still being negotiated. Dunno. What I do know is that I don't sign contracts I haven't seen.


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## MarkCoker (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi all,

I'm sorry I'm coming to this thread late. It's been a busy week. I don't fault those of you who are frustrated over the absence of information.

As I explained in the blog post at http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/09/smashwords-signs-distribution-agreement.html and at Site Updates at https://www.smashwords.com/about/beta  and in the Channel Manager, we're not going to disclose the financial details of the Oyster channel until 72 hours before we begin shipping. Every author who's opted in to receive our author/publisher alerts will receive the email notification. You can check your communications settings under your Account tab (first item under the tab) at Smashwords. Here's the direct link: https://www.smashwords.com/account/comm

For anyone who's been following us over the last five years, this is the first time we've announced a new channel without first disclosing the financial details. This was not my choice, and believe me, there were some spirited discussions about this.

All I can say at this point, which I've already stated at the links above, is that I would not have signed the Oyster agreement if I didn't think it was in our authors' best interests. I think everyone here, once you see the details, will agree with me that I looked out for you and got you a good deal.

If you don't want to trust me that it's a good deal, I won't be offended if you opt out of the Oyster channel now. You can always opt in later after you receive my email. If you choose to miss out on the opportunity, that's your choice as well. Every channel we add will not be an instant hit, though looking back at the channels we've launched over the last five years, authors who get in early have an advantage over those that get in later. It's the big fish in a small pond scenario. Each new sales channel gives you the ability to reach new readers you won't reach anywhere else.

Ebook subscriptions are coming. Many times I've seen KB'ers calling for more innovation from Amazon's competitors. This is innovative. Oyster won't be the last you see of this. Will Oyster succeed? It's too soon to tell. All these services face tremendous headwinds (like how do they build this into a profitable business that balances the needs of the operator, the publisher and the customer). Oyster's got a strong team with strong backers. Look at their credentials. One of their investors is Peter Thiel's Founders Fund.

Regarding the comments about our auto-opt-in, I hear you, and I'll consider this, but at present we have no plans to change this. We will always notify you before we activate a new channel. We always have. Normally, it's 48 hours advance notice. For Oyster, I've committed to at least three days notice. We'll also always announce new channels at the Smashwords Blog, and via Site Updates, and through our social media channels. If folks here would like to see me make postings a KB part of our regular disclosure of all new deals, I'm happy to do that.

I saw a note about someone accusing me of slamming Amazon in every newsletter. That's not true. Contrary to what some here might think, I'm not an Amazon hater. I don't like exclusivity, end of story. If it works for you, great. I can be critical of KDPS but still admire their business and what they've done for authors. Every time I speak with writers, l encourage them to be on Amazon.

Here's the latest author alert in case anyone missed it:

*Smashwords Author/Publisher Alert - August 29, 2013*

Inside:

1. Smashwords introduces preorder distribution to Apple, B&N and Kobo
2. New author marketing tool: Smashwords Interviews
3. New distribution to Flipkart, the "Amazon of India"
4. Download now: New editions of The Smashwords Book Marketing Guide and The Secrets to Ebook Publishing Success
5. In case you missed it: Smashwords survey helps authors sell more books
6. Multiple Smashwords authors hit bestseller list at Apple, plus new Breakout Books promotions
7. Smashwords commences daily shipments to Barnes & Noble, joining Apple and Kobo with faster deliveries
8. Links to helpful resources

________________________________________

1. SMASHWORDS INTRODUCES PREORDER DISTRIBUTION TO APPLE, BARNES & NOBLE AND KOBO

________________________________________

On July 26, Smashwords introduced preorder distribution to Apple, Barnes & Noble and Kobo. Preorders are probably the most powerful new distribution tool we've introduced in the last three years. Several Smashwords authors have already used preorders to hit the top 10 store-wide bestseller lists at Apple (more on that below!). You'll find the original announcement here: http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/07/smashwords-introduces-preorder.html

Here's how preorders work:

1. You upload your book from the normal Smashwords Publish page and set a release date (aka your "onsale" date) that is in the future. We and our retailers recommend at least four weeks in the future to get the most benefit from preorders, though you can do less.

2. Your fans reserve their preorder copies in advance. When the book officially goes onsale in the future, their credit card is charged.

3. At Apple and Kobo, all accumulated preorders credit all at once on the same day, which can cause your book to spike in genre or store-wide bestseller lists. *THIS* is the magic of preorders. This increases the visibility of your book, which increases discoverability and sales, which then leads to a virtuous cycle of more sales driving more sales.

4. Preorders allow authors to stage strategic, advance marketing campaigns prior to your release date. The longer your preorder runway (the time your book is available for preorder), the greater your opportunity to accumulate preorders.

5. Advance delivery so your book is ready for purchase at these major retailers on your official release date. No more wondering when the retailer will list your book. By working in advance with a preorder, the retailer has more time to process, list and promote your book.

For your next release, be sure to budget extra time - at least one month - for a preorder. There many other exciting details I can share with you. Rather than trying to capture them all in this email, please visit the links below where you'll learn how to maximize the success of your preorder.

How to do a successful preorder:

Original announcement: http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/07/smashwords-introduces-preorder.html
Updated details, with best practices info: http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/08/smashwords-authors-top-charts-at-apple.html
Smashwords Preorder page: https://www.smashwords.com/preorder

________________________________________

2. NEW AUTHOR MARKETING TOOL: SMASHWORDS INTERVIEWS
________________________________________

As you may recall, last year we ran a series of author interviews at the Smashwords blog. The interviews were all fantastic, but I realized that even if we could do an interview each week, we'd only be able to interview less than one in every 10,000 Smashwords authors per year. I also didn't like that *I* was the gatekeeper. I was the one selecting the authors to be interviewed. I founded Smashwords five years ago to eliminate your gatekeepers and put you in charge!

So I started wondering what it would take to interview every Smashwords author. I believe every Smashwords author has an interesting story to tell, and if only readers could learn your story, they'd be more inclined to read your books. Obviously, with over 60,000 Smashwords authors, even if we published ten interviews per day it would take us 16 years to publish them all. Never mind that thousands of authors join Smashwords each month. We'd never catch up.

Then the light bulb went off. What if we could do for author interviews what we for ebook self-publishing? How about self-interviewing? This was the genesis behind Smashwords Interviews, a cool new tool that makes it fast, fun and easy for you to share your story with your readers.

Smashwords Interviews presents you with a series of questions to answer. You can modify the questions or create your own. Make your interview unique. Let your voice shine. Update it any time when the muse strikes, or when you release a new title.

Your interview is promoted across the Smashwords web site. It's cross linked on the home page, on your profile page and on all your book pages. At the end of each interview, we display quick links to all your books.

We also make it easy for your fans to share your interview on social media. Encourage your fans to share it!

To read the interviews of fellow authors, visit https://www.smashwords.com/interviews

To learn more about this exciting new feature, read our announcement at the blog: http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/08/smashwords-interviews-helps-readers.html

Ready to be interviewed? You'll find the link for Smashwords Interviews under your Account tab. Here's the direct link: https://www.smashwords.com/manageinterview/view

________________________________________

3. SMASHWORDS SIGNS DISTRIBUTION AGREEMENT WITH FLIPKART, "THE AMAZON OF INDIA"
________________________________________

India here we come! Smashwords today announced a new ebook distribution partnership with Flipkart, the largest online bookstore in India. Flipkart controls 80% of the Indian market for online bookselling. 80% of their sales are of English language books. We're in the process of wrapping up final integration testing, and expect all Smashwords Premium Catalog books to be listed within four weeks.

The ebook market in India in nascent, probably accounting for around 1/2 of 1% of the overall trade book market in India. In other words, it's where the US market was five or six years ago. I expect the Indian ebook market to follow the same exponential growth curve as we've seen in the US, Australia, UK, Canada and elsewhere. With over 125 million English speakers, India has more people speaking the English language than the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand combined. Obviously, English language reading proficiency is less than that, but you get the picture of what a large market opportunity India represents.

I expect sales at Flipkart to start off small, but grow over time as the primordial soup ingredients for a thriving ebook ecosystem fall into place. The ingredients? Smart phones, dedicated e-readers, Smashwords ebooks and increased Internet usage in India.

To distribute to Flipkart, there's nothing you need to do other than ensure your books are all Premium Catalog approved. You'll earn 60% list price for all sales, minus the Indian Withholding Tax (similar to VAT). Unlike all the other agency agreements we have with Smashwords retailers, this is a wholesale agreement - very similar to the wholesale agreement many authors have with Amazon's KDP platform. This means Flipkart maintains the right to discount the book if they want. In practice, I don't expect much discounting except in price-matching situations. If they see a lower price at the Kindle store in India, for example, they will probably discount. They'll only price match against retailers in India. If they discount in a price-matching situation, you'll receive 60% of the discounted price. If they discount outside of a price-matching situation, you'll receive 60% of the list price you set (meaning, for example, if you priced at $10, and they discount to the Rupee equivalent of $5.00, you'll still receive a $6.00 royalty, less applicable taxes). I have expressed to Flipkart that if they discount, Amazon India is likely to discount the same books on KDP, and this will cause our authors grief. Flipkart understands the implication of causing you grief (i.e. author optouts) which is why I don't expect a lot of discounting.

If for some reason you don't want your books going to Flipkart, you can opt out via your Dashboard's Channel Manager. I don't recommend opting out. India offers Smashwords authors a rare - dare I say it - ground floor opportunity to become the big fish in a small but fast-growing pond. Authors who are there first with all their books will develop the largest readership in the years to come.

Over at the Smashwords blog, I've shared many more important details about the relationship with Flipkart, including some interesting market facts: http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/08/smashwords-distributes-ebooks-to.html 

________________________________________

4. UPDATED: SMASHWORDS BOOK MARKETING GUIDE *AND* THE SECRETS TO EBOOK PUBLISHING SUCCESS 
________________________________________

This month I updated both The Smashwords Book Marketing Guide and The Secrets to Ebook Publishing Success. Both contain new tips. The Marketing Guide has information on how to get better press coverage, and the Secrets book contains more information about preorder strategy.

Download them today for free at Smashwords:

Marketing Guide (how to market any book and build author platform):
http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/305

The Secrets to Ebook Publishing Success (learn the secrets of bestselling ebook authors):
http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/145431

________________________________________

5. SMASHWORDS SURVEY HELPS AUTHORS SELL MORE BOOKS
________________________________________

In case you missed it, in May I published my second annual metrics survey.

We sought to answer the following questions:

* Do frequent price changes help authors sell more books?
* Do longer or shorter book titles sell more books?
* Do longer or shorter book descriptions sell more books?
* How do sales develop over time at a retailer, and what factors might spark a breakout?
* Do longer or shorter books sell better?
* What's the average word count for the 60 bestselling Smashwords romance books?
* What does the sales distribution curve look like, and how many books sell well?
* How many words are the bestselling authors selling for a penny?
* What are the most common price points for indie ebooks, and what changed since last year? 
* How many more downloads do FREE ebooks get compared to priced ebooks?
* How have Smashwords sales grown at the Apple iBookstore in three years?
* How does price impact unit sales volume?
* What price points yield the greatest overall earnings for authors and publishers?

If you missed the survey, you can download it now at the Smashwords blog: 
http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/05/new-smashwords-survey-helps-authors.html

________________________________________

6. MULTIPLE AUTHORS HIT BESTSELLER LIST AT APPLE
________________________________________

Today as I write this, three of the top five bestselling titles at the Apple iBooks store are Smashwords titles. Congrats to Justine Elvira, Melody Grace and Chanda Hahn! Two of the three took advantage of our new preorder distribution.

Also this week, Apple launched a refreshed Breakout Books promotion. 70% of the featured authors are Smashwords authors. Here they are:

Under the Romance category, there's GJ Walker Smith, Kirsty Moseley, Abbi Glines, Katie Ashley, Chanda Hahn, Kelly Mooney, Erica Stevens, Quinn Loftis, Shayne Parkinson, Samantha Young, Marquita Valentine, Lisa Plumely, Kahlen Aymes, Shelly Crane, S.C. Stephens and Merry Farmer.

Under Mysteries & Thrillers, there's Claude Bouchard, JD Nixon, Paul Pilkington, E.L. Henry, Maggie Shayne, G.P. Ching, Mike Wells, Claude Bouchard again (yay!), Edie Claire, Dana Donovan, Harrison Drake, John O'Brien, L.L. Bartlett and George Wier.

Under Sci-fi and Fantasy, there's Dionne Lister, Caroline Hansen, Hadleigh O. Charles, Joseph Lallo, Valmore Daniels, TC Southwell, Brian S. Pratt, Jeffrey Poole, Claire Farrell, Lindsay Buroker, Sarah Woodbury, TC Southwell (again, yay!), Joseph Lallo (again, yay!), Randolph Lalonde, Penelope Fletcher, and T.M. Nielsen.

Under the catch-all of "More to Explore," there's Linda Gillard (twice!), Mike Wells (second appearance), William Wayne Dicksion, Shayne Parkinson (second appearance!), Kaitlyn Davis, Sarah Burleton, Kim Richardson, and Alison Pensy.

This Breakout Books promotion is only one of several Apple promotions going on this week that features multiple Smashwords authors. My thanks to Apple for their amazing support of Smashwords authors!

Learn more here: http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/08/apple-ibooks-refreshes-breakout-books.html

________________________________________

7. SMASHWORDS NOW SHIPS DAILY, 5 DAYS PER WEEK, TO B&N
________________________________________

In previous Smashwords author alerts I talked about our faster faster faster initiative. This month we announced daily shipments to Barnes & Noble. We now ship daily, five days per week, to Apple, Barnes & Noble and Kobo. This means faster deliveries and faster pricing and metadata updates.

In the months ahead, you'll see us continue to improve other areas of our business to serve you faster and more reliability.

More about our daily shipments here: http://blog.smashwords.com/2013/08/smashwords-commences-daily-shipments-to.html

________________________________________

8. HELPFUL AUTHOR/PUBLISHER RESOURCES
________________________________________

Frequently asked questions: https://www.smashwords.com/about/supportfaq
Smashwords Site Updates: https://www.smashwords.com/about/beta
Smashwords blog (subscribe today via the email option!): http://blog.smashwords.com
How to publish and distribute ebooks with Smashwords: https://www.smashwords.com/about/how_to_publish_on_smashwords
Connect with fellow Smashwords readers and authors at Facebook: http://facebook.com/Smashwords
Mark's List - Low cost cover designers and ebook formatters. Now online at http://smashwords.com/list
________________________________________

On behalf of all 21 of us here at Smashwords, I thank you for your continued support, trust and partnership.

When you publish and distribute with Smashwords, you're supporting our mission to create new opportunities for you. We constantly advocate for the best interests of our authors. The new preorders feature, the distribution to Flipkart, or the many Smashwords authors featured in Apple's merchandising promotions, are but three recent example of how we're always working to connect you with more readers.

Do you know authors not yet on Smashwords? Please invite them to join our 60,000+ strong worldwide community.

Together, we're changing the world of publishing one indie ebook at a time.

Best wishes,

Mark

Mark Coker
Founder
Smashwords
http://www.smashwords.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/markcoker

TO ACCESS YOUR SMASHWORDS ACCOUNT:

To sign in to your account:
Click to http://www.smashwords.com
In the sign in box, enter your email address: followed by your password. If you forgot your password, click "forgot password" link to generate a new one.

We respect the email and privacy settings of our registered members. In no cases do we share, rent or sell our member lists. As a Smashwords member, you are in full control of your communications settings.

Manage your communications preferences (opt out or opt in to emails): https://www.smashwords.com/account/comm


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Ty Johnston said:


> There could be several legitimate reasons for this.
> 
> Because businesses don't want their competition to know what they're up to until the last minute. Or maybe some final details are still being worked out, so it's not safe for Coker to say just yet. Or maybe it's a contractual thing that he can't say more until a few days before.
> 
> At least Coker let us know what's coming. Does Amazon give us such information? No. They drop stuff on indie writers all the time. And they don't give us a preview, or ask our opinions, or seek our advice, and they sure as heck don't seek our blessing.


I'm not sure what you're talking about. First, Amazon is absolutely clear about everything they do. No, they don't have roundtable discussions about marketing and algorithm changes like some people expect them to. They didn't just opt everyone into Select when they launched it, and expect you to opt out if you wanted to. They didn't do it with the new program either. When Amazon offers a program they tell you the terms. Jeff Bezos doesn't just say on a blog, "We know the terms and they're good." What kind of utter nonsense is that?

Writers who want careers better start thinking like business people. And successful business people expect to know the terms of things they are agreeing to. This service may take off, it may become a big success. But what kind of babbling nonsense is this introduction? Do you think the big publishers are signing on without knowing all of the terms involved? Are the publishers getting a better deal than you will? Will you end up in some indie ghetto? How will you get accounting? When and on what schedule? Can you remove your books at any time? Is the service claiming any other rights? Will it cause any price matching problems with other retailers?

I could go on for hours. I'm open to any new markets, and I am certainly a proponent of keeping up with changes in the industry. But the rush to sign up for something like this makes no sense at all. Let's see the details...all of them. And with all due respect, I mean more than Mark Coker saying they are good while he is expressly not releasing them.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Mark:

Three days notice is NOT ENOUGH for an opt out. People may be on vacation, or involved in a family crisis. Your email could get caught in a spam filter. (As a matter of fact, for any new authors it certainly will get caught.)

I love that you continue to innovate -- but remember, that you have competition now. Your great innovations only go so far in overcoming serious problems. Some of the problems are just irritations. The automatic "opt in" is a legal issue. As long as that exists, you aren't actually giving your authors any control over where their work ends up. If something ships and even one copy is sold... you can't undo that.

PLEASE don't just _consider_ changing your policy here. Fixing the "opt in" is a high priority.

Camille


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

B. Justin Shier said:


> B.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> ...


I wanted to chime in about the two to four month window on the after publication date. When I read about Oyster, I was thinking it was a good way to get old titles still owned by publishers to give it a last few dollars on a place like this. Much like how Netflix doesn't get new movies and videos. They get television shows and movies that have extended beyond the "the likely time people will buy".

For example, popular shows uploaded to Netflix only get updated episodes after the show has aired on TV, the online replay has run it's course, and the sales for individual episodes have slumped on iTunes and Amazon, usually when the next season is about to pick up. What you have left after that are people who can't afford to buy every episode or catch every show, and who are interested and are unlikely to Torrent what they want. (Or they would if they knew they couldn't access it though easier/legal means.)

New music operates on a similar level before going to Spotify or Pandora. Last I checked, some of my favorite bands still operated really well. Actually, they're doing fantastically. And these aren't top 40 pop charts. These are people who play small venues and created their own record label.

I kind of like the idea behind Oyster. I don't have to opt in all titles, just the ones that either I've been giving away for free (and depending on how Oyster will work per Mark saying it'll be available soon, possibly actually getting paid for your freebie), and titles that might have fallen flat because of the wrong market or whatever.

I'm very sure that Harlequin and the other big publishers are not interested in killing a VERY lucrative cash flow that is Amazon and Barnes right now, but they've already been slow on jumping on new waves before. What I see is them dumping their nonactive backlog of ebooks trying to catch new readers to come take a look and possibly buy the next book of the same author.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

> New music operates on a similar level before going to Spotify or Pandora. Last I checked, some of my favorite bands still operated really well. Actually, they're doing fantastically. And these aren't top 40 pop charts. These are people who play small venues and created their own record label.


No one is going to pay to watch me typing in Starbucks. Also unlikely they will want to buy baseball caps, t-shirts or bedspreads with my name on it. Musicians have other income streams that society doesn't seem interested in having authors replicate.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2013)

Jay Allan said:


> I'm not sure what you're talking about. First, Amazon is absolutely clear about everything they do.


What? Amazon is the King of the No-Information press release and the master of using a lot of words to say nothing. Even with Matchbook, for example, does anyone know how this will work with authors who own their digital rights, but have print rights with another publisher? Does anyone know how it will work with authors who may have just gotten their print rights back, but customers may have previously bought a book while it was with a publisher? Does anyone know if delivery fees will be charged to ebooks discounted through Matchbook? Amazon is clear as mud most days.

Amazon didn't ask me to "opt in" to their Mexico site, even though the non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Amazon didn't ask me to opt in to India, even through my non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Amazon didn't ask me to opt in to Brazil, even though my non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Maybe that is because when I first enrolled with Amazon I told them I had worldwide rights to the book and realized they would just opt me in to every new site...oh...JUST LIKE SMASHWORDS! ye gods, everyone is acting like this is something new. Smashwords policy, just like Amazon, has always been to automatically opt folks into new distribution channels (if you are in premium distribution). This is not an earth shattering shock to the system. There is nothing shady going on. Anyone who has paid attention is aware of this. If YOU have not been paying attention, well, lack of attention on your part does not constitution evil intent on Smashwords part. Frankly, I spend far more time having to police Amazon (requesting the removal of fake trolls reviews, adjusting to algorithm changes, fixing random category changes, descriptions disappearing, randomly matching up the wrong print book with a Kindle book, etc. etc) than I have ever spent policing Smashwords.

Smashwords, for me, runs on auto pilot. I know Mark is constantly looking for new markets. That is the exact reason WHY I signed up for premium distribution...because I pay him a percentage of sales to find me new markets. That's sort of his job. To find new markets. So I can spend my free time sending my sixth email to Amazon asking why the cover I updated two months ago still isn't showing on the listing or why the book that is showing available in the KDP report is a blank page when I go to Amazon.

Amazon is always absolutely clear...funniest thing I read online this week.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Rykymus said:


> So, three groups that can't seem to get it right, get together with people who used to work for a group that used to get it right, but these days not so much, to do something with other peoples work to make a profit for themselves? And they aren't going to give the providers of that content the information they need to make an informed, thoughtful decision about whether or not to REMAIN opted in until the last second?
> 
> I suggest everyone opt out immediately, and force Smashwords to disclose the details.
> 
> I wouldn't touch this with a ten kilometer pole.


Well said. I too loathe the "opted in without permission" policy.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

CLStone said:


> I wanted to chime in about the two to four month window on the after publication date. When I read about Oyster, I was thinking it was a good way to get old titles still owned by publishers to give it a last few dollars on a place like this. Much like how Netflix doesn't get new movies and videos. They get television shows and movies that have extended beyond the "the likely time people will buy".
> 
> For example, popular shows uploaded to Netflix only get updated episodes after the show has aired on TV, the online replay has run it's course, and the sales for individual episodes have slumped on iTunes and Amazon, usually when the next season is about to pick up. What you have left after that are people who can't afford to buy every episode or catch every show, and who are interested and are unlikely to Torrent what they want. (Or they would if they knew they couldn't access it though easier/legal means.)


This sounds logical...in theory...but I have books that were released two years ago that are still earning me decent money, and I can't imagine I'm the only one in that situation. Every time I release a new book in a series, the older books get a bump. Just because a title is older doesn't necessarily mean it's ready for the Spotify graveyard.

Who knows? This could be awesome. But I want details before I make any kind of a decision.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Amazon didn't ask me to "opt in" to their Mexico site, even though the non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Amazon didn't ask me to opt in to India, even through my non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Amazon didn't ask me to opt in to Brazil, even though my non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Maybe that is because when I first enrolled with Amazon I told them I had worldwide rights to the book and realized they would just opt me in to every new site...oh...JUST LIKE SMASHWORDS! ye gods, everyone is acting like this is something new. Smashwords policy, just like Amazon, has always been to automatically opt folks into new distribution channels (if you are in premium distribution). This is not an earth shattering shock to the system.


+1

This is why I don't understand why everyone is so upset about the auto opt-in thing that Smashwords does.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

CLStone said:


> I wanted to chime in about the two to four month window on the after publication date. When I read about Oyster, I was thinking it was a good way to get old titles still owned by publishers to give it a last few dollars on a place like this. Much like how Netflix doesn't get new movies and videos. They get television shows and movies that have extended beyond the "the likely time people will buy".


The windowing aspect intriguing me because during the Apple collusion trial it was revealed that the CEOs of some of the larger publishers were attempting to coordinate the postponing of major eBook release dates in order to give their print versions some running room. You can read the details of their plans in David Young's famous "double-delete" email. Examine Slide 15. You'll need to download for higher res.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/145486131/U-S-v-Apple-Et-Al-Opening-Slides

I'm really interested to see how the publishers' new DoJ minders interpret this new deal featuring a windowing clause.

B.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

I think the big issue with Smashy's opt-in this time is that this is a totally different distribution model. Ammy's and Smashy's auto-opt-in on new distributors don't represent drastic changes to the extant models; Oyster does.

Besides, with Amazon, pulling your books out of a distributor doesn't takes weeks and months.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Amazon didn't ask me to "opt in" to their Mexico site, even though the non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Amazon didn't ask me to opt in to India, even through my non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Amazon didn't ask me to opt in to Brazil, even though my non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Maybe that is because when I first enrolled with Amazon I told them I had worldwide rights to the book and realized they would just opt me in to every new site...oh...JUST LIKE SMASHWORDS!


Are you contending that Amazon dividing up their international operations into country specific websites changed your royalty rates?

B.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Are you contending that Amazon dividing up their international operations into country specific websites changed your royalty rates?
> 
> B.


I'm with B on this one because we were all earning 35% on those countries (which showed up as sales in the US stores) before they got their separate websites and we're still earning 35% on those websites absent our taking the proactive step of opting in to Select.

Thank you, B., I'm only skimming while I try to finish a story today and the original argument slid past me. Also, what Saul said -- Oyster is an entirely different model, the first of its kind for ebooks.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2013)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Are you contending that Amazon dividing up their international operations into country specific websites changed your royalty rates?
> 
> B.


In you are not in Select, you cannot get 70% royalties in India, Mexico, etc. So my $5.99 book, which earns 70% on Amazon.com, only earns 35% in Mexico.

My point is, when I signed up with Amazon, I clicked the box that I have worldwide rights so they could distribute worldwide. I'm not remotely surprised when they opt me in to each new store, because I signed up for that. Even if the royalty may be different per store.

It is the same thing with Smashwords, when I signed up for Premium distribution, I knew they would opt me in to each new distribution channel they negotiated. So I am not surprised with this.

I can't imagine why people ARE surprised by this and are acting like it is some violation of trust. When you signed up originally, you knew what you were signing up for. You (imperial you not you personally) knew they were always adding new channels, that those channels may have different royalty percentages based on negotiated rates, and that you would be opted in to those new channels as they became available. This is not a surprise to anyone who has paid attention over the last five years. Just like I expect Amazon to opt me into their new stores despite the different royalty structures, I expect Smashwords to opt me in to new outlets.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

You earned 35% from sales on .com to Mexico before the new store and you still (as a non-Selecter) make 35% on sales to Mexico.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Monique said:


> You earned 35% from sales on .com to Mexico before the new store and you still (as a non-Selecter) make 35% on sales to Mexico.


This. The Mexico store opening up is not really a new distibution channel, because you were already offering your books for sale in Mexico through the Amazon.com store...at 35%.


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## SandraMiller (May 10, 2011)

Monique said:


> You earned 35% from sales on .com to Mexico before the new store and you still (as a non-Selecter) make 35% on sales to Mexico.


This is the part that gets me, I think. Amazon has never automatically opted me into anything that wasn't disclosed and clearly understood. Julie mentioned questions about MatchBook--but Amazon did not automatically opt anybody into that program.

Automatically opting all of us into a new program, WHILE refusing to disclose the terms of how that program will work, is unacceptable to me. It also seems sneaky to disclose those terms 72 hours prior to launch, especially given that we were all signed up whether we were interested or not, and given that Smashwords is not exactly prompt about updating things.

Is it all easily remedied by manually opting out? Well, sure. But it's a burden that we shouldn't have, for a program that _has not been explained at all._ And no, Amazon has never done anything like that. I don't disagree with Julie often, but this time I do.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Amazon's automatic opt in to new national territories is very different from Smashwords: why? Because when you listed the book in the first place, YOU STATED WHAT TERRITORIAL RIGHTS YOU ARE GIVING THEM. In other words, you opted in.

It's right there in the form. (Yes, the language is not clear - it's asks what rights you hold, but really, the question at the very top of the rights and prices page is what territories are you giving them permission to sell in.) And if you selected all, then they are distributing over the entire world, regardless of whether that country has it's own store or is using the .com.

I'll just repeat that: *Amazon was already distributing your books to Mexico before they opened the mx store.*

Smashwords is a distributor, and that's very different. If you have a book at a vendor, and then Smashwords adds that vendor and automatically distributes your book to them, then behind your back they have just screwed you.

And it's sooooo trivial to fix. Just don't automatically opt people in. There is no reason for this to be the default. It's bad business.

While I agree that adding these new options is indeed Mark Coker's job. It's what we love about Smashwords. And we can deal with the mess of how the site works. But this automatic opt in thing is something he really needs to fix.

Camille


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## S.E. Gordon (Mar 15, 2011)

@MarkCoker - Thanks for replying to this thread and giving indie authors a new stream of income. I'll give the new Oyster service a try.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Just an update from Twitter...



> Oyster ‏(@Oyster)
> @cameronspickert is our iOS developer. iPad will be available this fall!


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

When you sign up with Smashwords, you agreed to their Terms of Service. Here's a quote from the Smashwords web site (TOS last updated April 5, 2013):


> 7. *Author-Controlled Terms.* The Site allows Author to control pricing, distribution channels, sampling rights and output formats. Smashwords may extend author control in the future. *All Premium Catalog books are automatically opted in to all new distribution channels*, though in all instances, prior to activating a new distribution channel, Smashwords will provide authors and publishers at least 48 hours advance notice to allow time opt out from the Smashwords Channel Manager if they choose. This advance notice will generally be provided through Site Updates, and to subscribers of author/publisher alerts, and other promotion.


(Emphasis mine.)

I agree that auto-opt-in is generally uncool and that the Smashwords means of notification is a bit lame. However, it is what we agreed to when we put our books on Smashwords.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I understand that they have a right to do it, but I also think it's kind of stinky and extra stinky in this cae with the cloak and dagger jazz.

*shrug*

eta: It's not, however, analogous to Amazon's additional country stores.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Monique said:


> I understand that they have a right to do it, but I also think it's kind of stinky and extra stinky in this cae with the cloak and dagger jazz.


I'm with you. I suspected all along that Mark didn't have a choice about withholding the details. The tactic smelled of a promotional power play dreamed up by an overpaid marketing staff. Getting big venture capital has its hazards.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> What? Amazon is the King of the No-Information press release and the master of using a lot of words to say nothing. Even with Matchbook, for example, does anyone know how this will work with authors who own their digital rights, but have print rights with another publisher? Does anyone know how it will work with authors who may have just gotten their print rights back, but customers may have previously bought a book while it was with a publisher? Does anyone know if delivery fees will be charged to ebooks discounted through Matchbook? Amazon is clear as mud most days.
> 
> Amazon didn't ask me to "opt in" to their Mexico site, even though the non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Amazon didn't ask me to opt in to India, even through my non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Amazon didn't ask me to opt in to Brazil, even though my non-exclusive royalty is lower than my normal royalty. Maybe that is because when I first enrolled with Amazon I told them I had worldwide rights to the book and realized they would just opt me in to every new site...oh...JUST LIKE SMASHWORDS! ye gods, everyone is acting like this is something new. Smashwords policy, just like Amazon, has always been to automatically opt folks into new distribution channels (if you are in premium distribution). This is not an earth shattering shock to the system. There is nothing shady going on. Anyone who has paid attention is aware of this. If YOU have not been paying attention, well, lack of attention on your part does not constitution evil intent on Smashwords part. Frankly, I spend far more time having to police Amazon (requesting the removal of fake trolls reviews, adjusting to algorithm changes, fixing random category changes, descriptions disappearing, randomly matching up the wrong print book with a Kindle book, etc. etc) than I have ever spent policing Smashwords.
> 
> ...


It wouldn't be a complete thread without some extremely inaccurate Amazon-hating.

1. You have already been corrected half a dozen times regarding the Mexico store. There is no change there at all, either in the fact that you were being distributed there and the royalty you receive. Considering your general knowledge level in past posts, I find it hard to believe that you didn't realize this, which sort of suggests a deliberate attempt to make up a complaint that has no basis in fact.

2. Can you name an instance...any instance...where Amazon has automatically enrolled you in anything? I don't mean them rearranging how they sell in other countries (where they were already selling at the same royalty structure)? Anything? At all? Amazon does not automatically enroll people in their new programs, and your statement that they do is a clear falsehood.

3. Can you name any Amazon program where they didn't provide all the details of how it works and what you would be paid?

4. Are you seriously trying to equate complex rights issues (e.g. print rights owned by one party, e-rights by another) with opting you automatically in a completely new and different type of distribution system with no explanation of the rights involved or given, no indication of the royalty policy (how much, how often paid, accounting, verification), nothing. Just a blog post saying, "we're not going to tell you, but it's good." If Amazon ever did that all the haters would be apoplectic. And, by the way, it strikes me as self-evident that the e-rights holder is the one agreeing to Matchbook. The ebook is the one being given away or sold at a reduced price, and it's highly unlikely that an existing print contract would forbid the e-rights holder from making such an agreement.

5. I appreciate your suggestion that it is up to the author to watch Smashwords like a hawk to make sure they don't do something you don't want. Agreed...one always needs to be vigilant. But one also needs to know when to cut losses and sever business ties with anyone who operates this way. Call it what you want...it's sleazy. Smashwords should seriously consider trying to move past this kind of thing.

6. I know whining about Amazon changing algorithms is one of the favored pursuits of some people. I know, I know...Amazon is a villain because they don't check their marketing changes against YOUR books before they enact them.

Amazon is the clearest, most upfront, and most reliable of all the retailers. No, I don't like some of the crap, bogus reviews they leave up. Assuming you ever sell enough on Smashwords to get a review, would they be easier to deal with on that? Would anyone?


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Fun fact. Here's the origin of the company's name.

   Falstaff:
   I will not lend thee a penny.

   Pistol:
   Why then the world's mine oyster,
   Which I with sword will open.

   Falstaff:
   Not a penny.

The Merry Wives Of Windsor Act 2, scene 2, 2–5


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

DRMarvello said:


> When you sign up with Smashwords, you agreed to their Terms of Service. Here's a quote from the Smashwords web site (TOS last updated April 5, 2013)Emphasis mine.)
> 
> 
> > 7. Author-Controlled Terms. The Site allows Author to control pricing, distribution channels, sampling rights and output formats. Smashwords may extend author control in the future. All Premium Catalog books are automatically opted in to all new distribution channels, though in all instances, prior to activating a new distribution channel, Smashwords will provide authors and publishers at least 48 hours advance notice to allow time opt out from the Smashwords Channel Manager if they choose. This advance notice will generally be provided through Site Updates, and to subscribers of author/publisher alerts, and other promotion.
> ...


I refuse to let facts spoil my sense of righteous indignation.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

DRMarvello said:


> I'm with you. I suspected all along that Mark didn't have a choice about withholding the details. The tactic smelled of a promotional power play dreamed up by an overpaid marketing staff. Getting big venture capital has its hazards.


I'm getting really confused. Did Smashwords have a financial stake in Oyster? Did Oyster have a financial stake in Smashwords? Do they share the same investors? Why didn't Mark have a choice?

B.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> I refuse to let facts spoil my sense of righteous indignation.


I support your choice! Just because we agree to certain terms doesn't mean we like them. We have the right to stomp and cry and yell. That's frequently the best way to affect change.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I'm getting really confused. Did Smashwords have a financial stake in Oyster? Did Oyster have a financial stake in Smashwords? Do they share the same investors? Why didn't Mark have a choice?
> 
> B.


Mark wasn't clear about the reasons, but this is from his message to us:


> For anyone who's been following us over the last five years, this is the first time we've announced a new channel without first disclosing the financial details. This was not my choice, and believe me, there were some spirited discussions about this.


I'm guessing non-disclosure was part of the contract terms when he signed with Oyster.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I'm getting really confused. Did Smashwords have a financial stake in Oyster? Did Oyster have a financial stake in Smashwords? Do they share the same investors? Why didn't Mark have a choice?
> 
> B.


Sounds like they made him an offer he couldn't refuse...


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I'm getting really confused. Did Smashwords have a financial stake in Oyster? Did Oyster have a financial stake in Smashwords? Do they share the same investors? Why didn't Mark have a choice?
> 
> B.


Mark may have been required to keep the terms confidential as part of the negotiation. This is pretty standard in many types of business partnerships. What's discomfiting is the fact that the terms won't be released until very shortly before the program goes live (at least on the distribution side), which suggests somebody doesn't want something known too soon. It may not be authors Oyster wants to keep in the dark, but it's hard for authors not to be suspicious. These are our books, after all.


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## Willo (May 10, 2013)

Katie Elle said:


> This will not be good. Authors need to kill this before it breeds.


My initial reaction is definitely in agreement with this sentiment.

This may be a sort of crossroads that could make or break either a very bad model for book selling or a mildly beneficial outlet with a different approach. Maybe when things are no longer top secret, there will be something magical to be found in this arrangement, but the auto opt-in adds to a long list of reasons I don't use Smashwords for premium and thank the stars for D2D and Xinxii.



B. Justin Shier said:


> I'm getting really confused. Did Smashwords have a financial stake in Oyster? Did Oyster have a financial stake in Smashwords? Do they share the same investors? Why didn't Mark have a choice?
> 
> B.


The auto opt-in is likely in place because Smash wanted this account very badly.

With extremely capable competition posing a sizable threat to their position as a distributor, they likely viewed this as a power move that they absolutely had to be a part of, irritated writers be damned. The Oyster folks may have made bringing a minimum number of titles to the table a stipulation,or it was a non-disclosure requirement. That doesn't justify it; it's still sneaky and disrespectful, but Smashwords may have felt they "had to" if Coker wanted his company to be a part of it.

Time will tell how this rolls out. Can't say I'm at all optimistic it will benefit indies.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Pando Daily interview with Oyster CEO Eric Stromberg

http://pandodaily.com/2013/09/06/oysters-eric-stromberg-discusses-his-netflix-for-books-startup-on-pandoweekly/

At minute 20, Stromberg dances around author payments.

tl;dl: It's win, win, win, yoz, etc., and so forth.

At minute 26, Hamish points out how Amazon's might easily counter Oyster.

tl;dl: Hamish notes that, as it stands, a Prime subscription is actually cheaper than a Oyster subscription. He then points out that if Amazon makes their Prime lending program unlimited, Oyster would find itself in a tight spot.

At minute 28, discussion about what other devices Oyster might come out on.

tl;dl: This is the real weird one. No clear idea when an Android roll out might occur, and it even sounds like there might have been some push back by Google-which makes me wonder why Apple was okay with hosting Oyster. They've been so protective of their ecosystem in the past, and this product directly competes with iBooks. Really fascinating stuff, this Oyster business. I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

B.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

B. Justin Shier said:


> If you don't want to listen, Hamish points something really important out. As it stands, a Prime subscription is actually cheaper than a Oyster subscription. Hamish notes that if Amazon just made the Prime lending program unlimited, Oyster would find itself in a tight spot.
> 
> B.


I didn't listen. . . .but I think it's important to note that there's a lot more you get with Prime than just one book a month. You also get a bunch of videos -- tv and movies -- that can be streamed free. And the main reason a lot of us are Prime members is to get expedited shipping.

I won't be surprised at all, though, if Amazon expands Prime, or starts a new program, similar to this. Folks here have been suggesting it for, literally, 5 years!


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I didn't listen. . . .but I think it's important to note that there's a lot more you get with Prime than just one book a month. You also get a bunch of videos -- tv and movies -- that can be streamed free. And the main reason a lot of us are Prime members is to get expedited shipping.
> 
> I won't be surprised at all, though, if Amazon expands Prime, or starts a new program, similar to this. Folks here have been suggesting it for, literally, 5 years!


I keep telling Jeff that all they have to do is include dark chocolate in every shipment.

B.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

emilycantore said:


> It isn't sleazy. It isn't wrong. Almost all online services operate this way. And 72 hours before first shipment you'll receive proper notification so you can make an informed decision.


Don't you have to opt in for that notification?



MarkCoker said:


> ...Every author who's opted in to receive our author/publisher alerts will receive the email notification. You can check your communications settings under your Account tab (first item under the tab) at Smashwords. Here's the direct link: https://www.smashwords.com/account/comm...


And didn't you say manual opt in rates are terrible?

B.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

Mark may be right that one way or another this kind of subscription model is going to arrive. I think we should be pretty wary about those models though. Musicians who are on services like Spotify sure don't make much from it. Just today I came upon an article about how much musicians make online. How Much Do Music Artists Make Online. It has a very interesting graphic that's worth spending some time with. I know some musicians have been trying to set up their own alternative to Spotify and Pandora but it's very hard to get traction against a service with a huge entrenched base.

I'd hate to see authors reach that kind of situation where you have to have millions of "listens" to get the same amount of money as selling 150 units.


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## Jill James (May 8, 2011)

1. automatic opting in/out  - How many people refuse to leave comments on blogs because of the extra step of doing the A CAPTCHA (an acronym for "Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart?

2. automatic opting in of email -- can't be done because of ICANN - deals with email spam.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

jnfr said:


> Mark may be right that one way or another this kind of subscription model is going to arrive. I think we should be pretty wary about those models though. Musicians who are on services like Spotify sure don't make much from it. Just today I came upon an article about how much musicians make online. How Much Do Music Artists Make Online. It has a very interesting graphic that's worth spending some time with. I know some musicians have been trying to set up their own alternative to Spotify and Pandora but it's very hard to get traction against a service with a huge entrenched base.
> 
> I'd hate to see authors reach that kind of situation where you have to have millions of "listens" to get the same amount of money as selling 150 units.


The models differ in that folks will listen to a music track numerous times, but will likely read a particular book only once. Musicians rely on multiple listens to make any bank, whereas authors don't have such reliance.

An interesting, if speculative, take from the Digital Book World:

http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2013/netflix-for-ebooks-or-spotify-for-ebooks-spot-the-difference/

I found the following compelling:



> Spotify offers you unlimited access to almost any music single or album you might possibly want...
> 
> Pulling the same stunt in ebook is going to be near impossible. Record labels have embraced Spotify because it makes money from consumers in their teens and tweens who would otherwise take to pirated content. In other words the music industry is financially better off.
> 
> In publishing the consumers likely to take up a "Spotify for ebooks" are much older and predominantly female and they spend more than $9.99 a month on books while not pirating anywhere close to the account that a music obsessed teenager would. Thus most publishers would make less money under this model. In other word, trade publishing revenues as a whole would contract. This instantly explains the huge reluctance of major publishers to embrace these services. And for the very same economic reasons publishers are also very cautious in how they make ebooks available to public circulation libraries.





> The Spotify for books model on the other hand is being strangulated by big publishers and they will probably give "Spotify for ebooks" start-ups no oxygen to breathe. The Netflix/HBO model on the other hand is attractive to them for monetizing their back catalog (anything 6-to-12 months old and beyond) or special verticals, like children's books, where it is the parents and not the consumers (children) who pay the monthly fee.
> 
> Whatever the outcome tough, expect Amazon to watch any development with eagle eyes and swoop in and attempt to extinguish any start-up with its sharp talons. I see no case of the "innovator's dilemma" for Amazon when it comes to "Netflix for ebooks" service.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Jill James said:


> 2. automatic opting in of email -- can't be done because of ICANN - deals with email spam.


I believe this is incorrect. Per the CAN-SPAM compliance guide:



> Q. How do I know if the CAN-SPAM Act covers email my business is sending?
> 
> A. What matters is the "primary purpose" of the message. To determine the primary purpose, remember that an email can contain three different types of information:
> 
> ...


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus61-can-spam-act-compliance-guide-business

Based on those definitions, Author/Publisher alerts should fit under "Transactional or Relational Content," not Commercial Content. I should also Note that B&N, Apple, and Amazon all notify me of new rollouts and changes to terms despite my never signing up for alerts.

B.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks for that link Saul. You're right, of course, about the ways in which books and music occupy different places in the culture. I'm really curious how this will all end up. I still think authors (and musicians) should be wary. Corporations in general have a long history of trying to squeeze actual content creators out of the revenue stream.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Guys.... Here's my take on this.

Mark has always been very open. If he is suddenly being tight lipped about a deal, after always being very transparent, I have to believe it is because the terms of the deal required it. Oyster, for whatever reasons, is keeping their author payout model close to their chest for as long as they can.

Mark says he thought very carefully about taking the deal, because of the requirement to keep the details secret until right before launch. What this tells me is that the deal, whatever it is, was good enough that he thought Smashwords should distribute there *even though* he knew writers would get upset about the secrecy. And let's face it: Smashwords makes money when we, as writer/publishers, make money. What is good for Smashwords' bottom line is likely going to be good for ours, as well.

Based on that, I'm considering myself "in" until I see the deal - and will then opt out if it looks terrible.

But I don't think it will look terrible. Mark doesn't have a history of signing terrible deals. I'm willing to cut him a little slack and give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. In fact, I think I'm going to make a point of uploading a few works that hadn't made it to Smashwords yet. So that they're ready for the Oyster launch. Because if this IS big, missing it could mean missing a huge opportunity. And I just hate doing that.


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## Not Here Anymore (May 16, 2012)

Two thoughts on this: 

1) Thank goodness I read Kboards. Appreciate the heads-up on the auto opt-in. 

2) Digital Book World article: "I think Netflix is a much better guide to the future of an “access model” in publishing. Services like Oyster may evolve to being like Netflix with killer content developed in-house, maybe in association with Wattpad (see the Sourcebooks alliance) and a limited catalog." 

So...essentially another ebook publishing house with a subscriber list.


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## Willo (May 10, 2013)

emilycantore said:


> Omg no.
> 
> Auto opt in occurs with all new channels for SW. There is nothing sneaky about it. The only thing different this time is Mark announced the channel and has to wait to announce the details. This also is not unusual. Oyster is backed by big money and are having a very carefully controlled launch.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm still holding to it being sneaky and disrespectful (the words I used) to have an auto opt-in to a channel that is this unconventional. A new ebook seller with standard royalties? Sure. A new program/method for selling ebooks that is this different, and zero word on what authors will be paid unless they opt-in to get the big reveal 72 hours before launch? Not acceptable. As someone else mentioned, some indies literally have hundreds of titles. They're expected to opt out in that time to avoid a 120 day lockdown of their books. I hope they're active KB members, and see this thread well before that.

ETA: Clarity
Also, I personally didn't agree with anything as I distribute through D2D - to avoid this sort of nonsense with Smashwords.

This Oyster business is much more than a channel, and disagreement on the part of authors who would appreciate respect as business-people does not equate to "ignorance" on any of our parts regarding why a business would use an auto opt-in for something that is conventional: e.g. Amazon shifting Mexico from the regular .com to its own channel at a royalty rate that's becoming standard for some territories (has precedent). Services like Oyster has no real precedent in* auto op-ins* for authors that I know of. If I'm incorrect about that, enlighten me.


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## Jill James (May 8, 2011)

Justin, thanks for the clarification. I was just going on the ICANN stuff for MailChimp newsletters. Thanks.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

I wonder if an unlimited subscription model would make length-sensitive readers more open to reading shorter works. "Value for money" wouldn't be so much of an issue.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

I predict Oyster will shrivel and die on the vine. They cannot survive without massive amounts of content, and their business model is not capable of providing enough of a royalty rate to entice any sane author with a decent following.

Nostro-Rykymus has spoken!


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

According to PEW research, the average reader read 15 books last year (that's among the 75% of Americans age 16+ who read any books in 2012).

I suspect Oyster will have a limit on the books you can borrow at any time. Probably they will only let you "take out" one or two at a time. If the average Oyster reader manages much over the national average, I'll be surprised - generally, more voracious readers tend to avoid this sort of thing, having already ingrained reading/buying habits.

So Oyster gets $120 per customer per year. If they stick to the 70% royalty to publishers, then they can afford to give $84 per customer per year in book payments.

At 15 titles borrowed per year, that's up to $5.60 per ebook borrowed.
If their customers somehow average twice the national average, and borrow 30 ebooks per year, then they can still afford to pay ~$2.80 per borrow to the publisher.

I don't think those payouts sound unreasonable. The latter is a little low, but I think their model should support a decent payment system. We'll see soon...


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

A little more info from a reader pov, via Dear Author:

http://dearauthor.com/book-reviews/oyster-the-subscription-ebook-app/

eta: This is from a comment from Eric, CEO of Oyster re: not finding a lot of titles:

_One important note is that when you filter by genre the few hundred books you see are not all of our titles, they are a curated list of titles picked by our editors and our algorithm. We have thousands of other romance titles that are available via search._


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Monique said:


> A little more info from a reader pov, via Dear Author:
> 
> http://dearauthor.com/book-reviews/oyster-the-subscription-ebook-app/


Interesting that only 3% of voters in her poll at the end of the blog want self-published work. Most folks are looking for both front- and back-list books, but they won't get it, nor will they get books from across the board. The UI restrictions also might be a turn-off.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> I suspect Oyster will have a limit on the books you can borrow at any time. Probably they will only let you "take out" one or two at a time. If the average Oyster reader manages much over the national average, I'll be surprised - generally, more voracious readers tend to avoid this sort of thing, having already ingrained reading/buying habits.


Three tidbits from their FAQ:



> Is there any limit to the number of titles I can read in a month?
> 
> No, subscribers can read as many titles as they like.





> How does connectivity work? Are users able to read in the subway or a bad service area?
> 
> No data connection is needed to access titles you are already reading, including the previous 10 books you have opened. Once a user selects a book, the title will downloaded and automatically be housed in their Oyster library. This allows members to read anytime, anywhere. Connectivity is required to access a book for the first time.





> Can I travel abroad with Oyster?
> 
> Oyster is currently only available to subscribers in the United States; US subscribers can use Oyster on their iPhones and iPod Touches while traveling abroad. Please keep in mind that Oyster does use some data, and the terms of your data plan may change when traveling abroad. Depending on the service plan you have with your wireless carrier, it is entirely possible to rack up a large bill using international cellular data networks. Contact your cellular carrier before travelling abroad.


https://www.oysterbooks.com/help/faq#q3


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

So it sounds like up to ten at a time, with the old ones "rolling off" as you borrow new ones.

I'm seeing potential for abuse, though... I mean, if someone just rolled through a bunch of books every day, without reading them, I think Oyster could end up in trouble...? It will be interesting to see how they plan to deal with this whole thing.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> I'm seeing potential for abuse, though... I mean, if someone just rolled through a bunch of books every day, without reading them, I think Oyster could end up in trouble...? It will be interesting to see how they plan to deal with this whole thing.


Why would someone pay $10 a month and not read the books.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Atunah said:


> Why would someone pay $10 a month and not read the books.


Authors "reading" their own books to drive up their stats. Would there be limits on how many times a subscriber is able to "read" a book? If I "read" ten of my own books a day, everyday, would I have been read 300 times that month? Yeah, potential for abuse, at least in the absence of the details.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> Authors "reading" their own books to drive up their stats. Would there be limits on how many times a subscriber is able to "read" a book? If I "read" ten of my own books a day, everyday, would I have been read 300 times that month? Yeah, potential for abuse, at least in the absence of the details.


Say a group of a hundred writers get together, and form up accounts. Each has 10-20 titles out. Each goes and pays a $10 sub fee, then each loads all the others' books over the course of the month. Total of say 1500 books downloaded by each. Total of 1000-2000 payments for each writer involved.

I'm not really good at this sort of thing, but other people sure are... Probably, Oyster has set up something to prevent this kind of abuse.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Say a group of a hundred writers get together, and form up accounts. Each has 10-20 titles out. Each goes and pays a $10 sub fee, then each loads all the others' books over the course of the month. Total of say 1500 books downloaded by each. Total of 1000-2000 payments for each writer involved.
> 
> I'm not really good at this sort of thing, but other people sure are... Probably, Oyster has set up something to prevent this kind of abuse.


Right. Now imagine a company of one thousand doing this for all their titles...

Two items of ponderation.

What if Amazon announced tomorrow that you get three borrows per month with Prime? What about five?

What if two major publishers announced tomorrow that they were pulling out of KOLL?

The next few months could be interesting times.

B.


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## adamelijah (Nov 16, 2010)

To be honest, I've only seen money on Smashwords from 3 channels-Barnes and Noble, Apple, and Sony. I've only opted out of Sony because it was a pain to get one book off and into Kindle Lending Library. Any money for borrows will be welcome.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

emilycantore said:


> I'm really excited to see what the terms are and what the total pool of royalties available will be (if they announce it).
> 
> If you have one million subscribers first year and the royalty pool is 50% of the subscriptions then you have $59, 700, 000 to split up between writers.
> 
> ...


I seriously doubt that there would be 3 point 6 million people willing to pay $9.95 a month for unlimited books.
Also if I remember right this is limited to only people that own iThings. So that let's out everyone who doesn't own iThings. Therefore smaller segment to choose from.

I must say your numbers are getting to be fascinating since no one knows the actual figures yet.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I seriously doubt that there would be 3 point 6 million people willing to pay $9.95 a month for unlimited books.
> Also if I remember right this is limited to only people that own iThings. So that let's out everyone who doesn't own iThings. Therefore smaller segment to choose from.
> 
> I must say your numbers are getting to be fascinating since no one knows the actual figures yet.


I think the limit to iPhone/iPad is going to be a big issue. They need to get an Android version out (Nook, and Kindle are both Android). I have a Nook, Kindle, iPhone, and MacBook Pro... If I could only read it on my iPhone I would not pay the money. If they open it to Android, there is a good chance I will sign up as a reader.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

VydorScope said:


> I think the limit to iPhone/iPad is going to be a big issue. They need to get an Android version out (Nook, and Kindle are both Android). I have a Nook, Kindle, iPhone, and MacBook Pro... If I could only read it on my iPhone I would not pay the money. If they open it to Android, there is a good chance I will sign up as a reader.


Subscriptions have been used in online games, music and movies for a while now and there is no reason why they can't be used for ebooks, regardless of the platform. If this thing is even remotely successful, we can expect Amazon to come in for their slice of the pie, probably adding an ebook component to their already established prime program. If there are services for iThingies and Kindles, everything else is irrelevant (esp with Amazon's Kindle app for Android/iThingies).


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> Subscriptions have been used in online games, music and movies for a while now and there is no reason why they can't be used for ebooks, regardless of the platform. If this thing is even remotely successful, we can expect Amazon to come in for their slice of the pie, probably adding an ebook component to their already established prime program. If there are services for iThingies and Kindles, everything else is irrelevant (esp with Amazon's Kindle app for Android/iThingies).


Prime already has the Kindle Online Lending Library, with one free borrow per month. All Amazon has to do to crush Oyster is increase this to 5 free borrows per month, IMO, as was suggested up thread.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Prime already has the Kindle Online Lending Library, with one free borrow per month. All Amazon has to do to crush Oyster is increase this to 5 free borrows per month, IMO, as was suggested up thread.


Digging out trusty calculator.
Prime is 79 a year. Oyster will be 119.40. My calculator says I will save $40.40 cents and along with the books, will also have videos and free shipping on physical stuff.
5 borrows a month would cover most readers if they are all normal size books say 250+ pages.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Another comparison article:
http://www.the-digital-reader.com/2013/09/05/comparing-ebook-subscription-services-oyster-ereatah-content-price-availability/#.Ui0wC8ZGZIk


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Subscription models already exist for ebooks, and they haven't been very successful. Using Netflix as a comparison to validate the approach means nothing because the model Netflix uses is different than the one proposed for Oyster, which is more like Spotify. The dynamics of user participation in music cannot be applied to ebooks; folks will listen to a song over and over again, but will read a book once and move on. The all-you-can-eat of Netflix also comes with a lot greater depth and variety and costs less. Amazon is also cheaper, and if Oyster gains any momentum, all Amazon has to do is up the ante slightly to knock them down again (and don't think for a second they wouldn't). So, while there isn't any reason an ebook subscription service can't work, there are lots of reasons why it can fail.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Personally, prescription models for books work better when they are genre specific. Unless the model has many or most of the big publishers on board. Genre readers tend to be voracious readers, so the genres they like have to be well represented. 

Now if they can get more publishers on board, the there is a future. I have no issue paying for such a model if I can get what I want to read. I don't even always need the newest release, but backlist is good too. But it has to be some big names for me to pay that much each month. 

I signed up after all for the sourcebook romance club. It started as a 9.99 for 6 months type of club with getting 6 "free" books in that time frame. Now they switched to just buying a 6 pack and get the books when one feels like. Not all books, but their selection each month. Worked for me. 

As to prime, it is first a shipping program for me. Second a streaming program. And now a once a month book program. To be honest, I have sometimes problems finding books to get on my borrow each month. I am determined not to waste any and so far I managed. 
But there are very few publishers involved and not to be a downer here, but most of the indy's that are part of the program and in the genre I read, I already own as a freebie. That is because a majority of the books in the select for the prime loan go on free at some point. And the genres I like to read are not super well represented by indy's unfortunately. 
And if there are indy books in my genre, like lots of backlist, I just rather buy them outright as they are usually a great deal anyway and often go on sale if not on free. 

But its an interesting concept to keep an eye out for.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Prime already has the Kindle Online Lending Library, with one free borrow per month. All Amazon has to do to crush Oyster is increase this to 5 free borrows per month, IMO, as was suggested up thread.


It would be a really no-brainer thing for Amazon to do and wouldn't even require much effort on their part.
And another reason for people to stay in Select, I'm also thinking.
I'd applaud that. At my current $3.95 rate for my books, the KOLL royalty is not that much less.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Prime already has the Kindle Online Lending Library, with one free borrow per month. All Amazon has to do to crush Oyster is increase this to 5 free borrows per month, IMO, as was suggested up thread.


It's not quite that easy for Amazon. Going from 1 to 5 free titles will mean they will have to at least triple the total pool of money to authors to maintain a royalty rate that will tempt authors into exclusivity. And if the program takes off, which wouldn't surprise me at all, that pool of money will have to grow even bigger. Throw in the hostile relationship they have with the corporate publishers, and it is obvious that they will need to drop a heck of a lot of cash into such a program if they want it to succeed. I can only see them doing it if the subscription services bleeds off a few of their customers and ebook sales drop.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> It's not quite that easy for Amazon. Going from 1 to 5 free titles will mean they will have to at least triple the total pool of money to authors to maintain a royalty rate that will tempt authors into exclusivity. And if the program takes off, which wouldn't surprise me at all, that pool of money will have to grow even bigger. Throw in the hostile relationship they have with the corporate publishers, and it is obvious that they will need to drop a heck of a lot of cash into such a program if they want it to succeed. I can only see them doing it if the subscription services bleeds off a few of their customers and ebook sales drop.


Will it get more people to buy diapers and toilet paper? If the answer is yes, then Amazon will find a way to do it.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Will it get more people to buy diapers and toilet paper? If the answer is yes, then Amazon will find a way to do it.


I agree. There are more incentives to authors to go Select (higher royalty rates across the board, more exposure, etc) and if the average reader reads 15 books/yr, then it may only take doubling the borrows to 2/month. But, as many others have said, Prime membership isn't just about books, it's about streaming video and music and free shipping, and in those regards, Amazon isn't competing at all against an Oyster. Besides, it's not an either/or situation; readers can be subscribers to both services (although if the redundancy in books offered is high, probably not). Oyster will either survive or suffer on its own merits; if they do start flourishing AND they pull customers away (doubtful), we'll definitely see Amazon respond, but they have to get to that point first.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> I agree. There are more incentives to authors to go Select (higher royalty rates across the board, more exposure, etc) and if the average reader reads 15 books/yr, then it may only take doubling the borrows to 2/month. But, as many others have said, Prime membership isn't just about books, it's about streaming video and music and free shipping, and in those regards, Amazon isn't competing at all against an Oyster. Besides, it's not an either/or situation; readers can be subscribers to both services (although if the redundancy in books offered is high, probably not). Oyster will either survive or suffer on its own merits; if they do start flourishing AND they pull customers away (doubtful), we'll definitely see Amazon respond, but they have to get to that point first.


I was just answering Herc's concern on why Amazon would find a way to compete.
Free videos and cheap e-books are just to get us in the door. They offer good royalties (actually %age of sales) to get more e-books to sale.
They already have subscriptions on household items and will ship on a schedule.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> It's not quite that easy for Amazon. Going from 1 to 5 free titles will mean they will have to at least triple the total pool of money to authors to maintain a royalty rate that will tempt authors into exclusivity.


Herc -- while we won't know until the end of the month when Smash sheds a least a little light on the royalty structure (I still expect them to be vague so no one will know until royalties actually start coming in), I think you are seriously overestimating what Oyster is going to pay on a per download basis. I would genuinely be surprised if it turns out to 15 cents per download. But, again, I have no more to go on than you do and we're both probably at least a little wrong. But if I'm less wrong, Amazon doesn't have to do anything to the pool to have KOLL compete with Oyster.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

Christa Wick said:


> Herc -- while we won't know until the end of the month when Smash sheds a least a little light on the royalty structure (I still expect them to be vague so no one will know until royalties actually start coming in), I think you are seriously overestimating what Oyster is going to pay on a per download basis. I would genuinely be surprised if it turns out to 15 cents per download. But, again, I have no more to go on than you do and we're both probably at least a little wrong. But if I'm less wrong, Amazon doesn't have to do anything to the pool to have KOLL compete with Oyster.


Oyster isn't the only startup of this type. There are two or three more offering varying models. The problem for Amazon is that they want exclusivity and therefore must offer more money per download. As it is now, even $2 per download isn't enough to entice many authors into their system because they lose out on other channels. If they remain exclusive then I can't see them offering anything less.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

People go select for more than one reason, perhaps even more significant reasons on an author-by-author basis. There are the free days (yes, there's perma-free but not everyone wants to do that - I use perma-free for one strong performing name (this one) and am going all in on Select on a low performing name); and there is the Amazon-admitted algorithm boost that Select-enrolled titles benefit from. More than one high performing Indie that Amazon has reached out to has wrung carefully couched admissions that Select enhances discoverability in some searches. I spotted this myself previously when using the Kindle Store on the Kindle Fire (as opposed to the web browser to visit the store). While the KOLL borrows can be very significant for popular authors, I suspect they are a non-factor for low-middle to low popularity authors who choose to re-enroll (they may be a lure for first enrollment, but not re-enrolling).

*Maybe that's a good question to ask within this thread -- those of you who are in Select, what was your primary motive? 
*
For me, it was using the free days to raise post-free discoverability (e.g. alsobot population and first in series).


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Christa Wick said:


> *Maybe that's a good question to ask within this thread -- those of you who are in Select, what was your primary motive?
> *


Ease of use. One-stop selling at the biggest vendor on the market.
I have one book at the other vendors and selling nada. 
Plus I think Amazon has a few things up their corporate sleeve and I'm going to hang in there until year's end to see what that is.


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

I just got an invite for Oyster. I don't think it'll be ground breaking or a huge game changer because of the lack of new releases, but that might also be good for authors and publishers. Haven't signed up yet, but I plan to by the end of the week, and I'll be our Kboards spy 

I'm going to take a chance and opt most of my novels in, too. The worst that could happen is I opt out and wait a few weeks for them to be taken down. I think that's better than missing out on the potential momentum from the launch and the smaller pool of books before others opt back in. (Not going to bother with short stories, though.)


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

emilyward said:


> I just got an invite for Oyster. I don't think it'll be ground breaking or a huge game changer because of the lack of new releases, but that might also be good for authors and publishers. Haven't signed up yet, but I plan to by the end of the week, and I'll be our Kboards spy


Awesome.  


> I'm going to take a chance and opt most of my novels in, too. The worst that could happen is I opt out and wait a few weeks for them to be taken down. I think that's better than missing out on the potential momentum from the launch and the smaller pool of books before others opt back in. (Not going to bother with short stories, though.)


Yeah, I am reversing my stance and opting everything in for now. Basically came to the same conclusion you did, risk is low and best chance for success is in the launch.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

emilyward said:


> (Not going to bother with short stories, though.)


Why?


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

I still fail to understand why most people here are treating this as if their entire life savings depend on it and they have to take all their books out of the other channels and keep it only exclusive to Oyster. That is certainly not the case. This is just an extra distribution channel available to us to get our books exposed to more readers. And a greater chance for making extra income from another source. So I don't understand why people are getting upset about that. If it's about the royalties, well, again, it's not like you have to take all your books out of all your other sales channels and only keep them in Oyster and rely on that as your sole income.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

RM Prioleau said:


> I still fail to understand why most people here are treating this as if their entire life savings depend on it and they have to take all their books out of the other channels and keep it only exclusive to Oyster. That is certainly not the case. This is just an extra distribution channel available to us to get our books exposed to more readers. And a greater chance for making extra income from another source. So I don't understand why people are getting upset about that. If it's about the royalties, well, again, it's not like you have to take all your books out of all your other sales channels and only keep them in Oyster and rely on that as your sole income.


I agree with you, for the most part. Oyster could crash and burn in its first year or two after accomplishing very little. It could do fabulously well and become The New Way of Buying Books. I suspect the first extreme is more likely than the second, so the risk of participating is probably low.

My main gripe is that I don't like to enter into a business arrangement where the terms are unknown. I want to know what the royalty agreement is before I sign up. I don't think that's being reactionary or asking too much. As it stands, the royalty agreement is like the contents of a mystery grab-bag. That's not the way I like to be treated as a client.

Oyster has a tough road ahead of it in trying to convert readers to an entirely new purchasing paradigm. The fact that the model exists in other media is helpful, but they still have to figure out how to let readers know they exist. For now, I'm willing to risk the astounding riches I could have made with them and wait until they prove their business is viable.


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## Willo (May 10, 2013)

DRMarvello said:


> My main gripe is that I don't like to enter into a business arrangement where the terms are unknown. I want to know what the royalty agreement is before I sign up. I don't think that's being reactionary or asking too much. As it stands, the royalty agreement is like the contents of a mystery grab-bag. That's not the way I like to be treated as a client.
> 
> Oyster has a tough road ahead of it in trying to convert readers to an entirely new purchasing paradigm. The fact that the model exists in other media is helpful, but they still have to figure out how to let readers know they exist. For now, I'm willing to risk the astounding riches I could have made with them and wait until they prove their business is viable.


This is my main point of contention, as well. Withholding terms until the last minute when you can't "free" your books from their opt-in for up to 120 days is a major red flag right out of the gate (or right before the gate opens...).


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

RM Prioleau said:


> I still fail to understand why most people here are treating this as if their entire life savings depend on it and they have to take all their books out of the other channels and keep it only exclusive to Oyster. That is certainly not the case. This is just an extra distribution channel available to us to get our books exposed to more readers. And a greater chance for making extra income from another source. So I don't understand why people are getting upset about that. If it's about the royalties, well, again, it's not like you have to take all your books out of all your other sales channels and only keep them in Oyster and rely on that as your sole income.


The reason is because it's insanely cheap and that model has some bad precedents behind it. If you look at a service like Spotify, they convinced the big labels to provide them content, and they've gradually leveraged that to become one of the biggest players in the music market, paying the worst royalties on the planet. If every author in the world gave their content to Oyster, why would anyone have any incentive to shop anywhere else? It's clearly the cheapest option for all but the most casual reader. If authors put them in a position to become too appealing to ignore, then people are most definitely going to shift, and royalties are inevitably going to plummet.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

Maya Cross said:


> The reason is because it's insanely cheap and that model has some bad precedents behind it. If you look at a service like Spotify, they convinced the big labels to provide them content, and they've gradually leveraged that to become one of the biggest players in the music market, paying the worst royalties on the planet. If every author in the world gave their content to Oyster, why would anyone have any incentive to shop anywhere else? It's clearly the cheapest option for all but the most casual reader. If authors put them in a position to become too appealing to ignore, then people are most definitely going to shift, and royalties are inevitably going to plummet.


What Maya said.

This is exactly why I've pulled all my titles from this distribution channel until I know more. Frankly, I think this service should be starved of content until we know for sure that we're not going to get pennies per read. I don't know about you, but I don't work that cheap.


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

Monique said:


> Why?


Hmm, I guess initially it was because my short stories tend to make very little sales, but if they're basically free, then that definitely changes people's willingness to read them. Why not, if you get to read everything you want for $10 a month and you can finish a short story in a short amount of time?


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## Willo (May 10, 2013)

ChristinePope said:


> What Maya said.
> 
> This is exactly why I've pulled all my titles from this distribution channel until I know more. Frankly, I think this service should be starved of content until we know for sure that we're not going to get pennies per read. I don't know about you, but I don't work that cheap.


No one should work that cheap.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Hi guys! Just wanted to pop in here and say that I got my Oyster invite today and signed up, so if anyone has any questions for me, I can try to answer. 

My initial impression is that for just $10/month, there is enough good content on there to keep me busy reading for years. So I agree that Oyster could be a dangerous thing for authors, if we look at Spotify and Netflix as cautionary tales. I'm very curious to see what kind of royalty setup Mark Coker has agreed to. 

That said, it's just for users of iThings right now -- and there isn't even an iPad app yet.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

DianaGabriel said:


> That said, it's just for users of iThings right now -- and there isn't even an iPad app yet.


As I said before, IMO, this will have to change before it has much of s chance at success.

Are the books new or old? Any big names? Any big publishers?


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm having issues with finalizing my payment info, keep getting an 'Application Error'. But from the titles I can see, they are mostly older ones. The newest ones are a year or more out from publication. Life of Pi, Graceling, etc. I doubt publishers want to make all their newest titles available to subscription services, but backlists make sense. Same reason Netflix doesn't have instant updates of new episodes or new movies. 

Some of the big names from the last decade: Jodi Picoult, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Silva, Janet Evanovich (sp?), Sara Gruen, Jonathan Safran Foer, Sara Shepard. 

Older names: George Orwell, Aldous Huxley, Lois Lowry, Ursula Le Guin, F. Scott Fitzgerald, JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis, Alice Walker, Margaret Atwood, Agatha Christie. 

Personally, there are plenty of books on here I want to read even though they're not the newest releases. Those signing up for Oyster should know these are not really Hot New Releases, they are those books you've heard about for months or maybe even years but have never gotten around to reading. When their site stops messing up, I'm signing up for at least the first month.

Edit: I have opted some of my books in, and I've decided to take a similar approach as the publishers who are there. I have the first books in my series but for the time being I've left the sequels out. If the royalties are really good I may consider putting them in, but I could see the benefit of having a kind of embargo before sending your books to Oyster.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2013)

DRMarvello said:


> My main gripe is that I don't like to enter into a business arrangement where the terms are unknown. I want to know what the royalty agreement is before I sign up. I don't think that's being reactionary or asking too much. As it stands, the royalty agreement is like the contents of a mystery grab-bag. That's not the way I like to be treated as a client.


But again, when has Smashwords ever announced this in advance of rolling out a new distribution agreement? I can understand this gripe is Smashwords always announced new deals a month in advance and always required opt in instead of opt out. But they have never done that. They have always negotiated these deals and then rolled them out as soon as they were ready to go live. In truth, we've gotten MORE notice about this one than we've ever had about anything. In addition, does Mark have a history of negotiating bad deals? I think he actually has a history of negotiating very fair terms that benefit authors. Keep in mind, Mark doesn't make money unless we do. And his cut is based on our cut. So if we don't make money on a deal, neither does he.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

I think the only way to access the bulk of the catalog is through a keyword search. All the browsing categories I've seen are small and curated.

I did a search for "paranormal romance," and the books I sampled from the results all had the word "paranormal" in the description, but not "romance." People might need to SEO their descriptions if they want their books seen at all.

As for book covers...the thumbnails in the search results are about 2/3 the size of my actual thumbnail. Teeny-tiny. When I click on a book to get a better look, the cover is bigger, but the center is obscured by a semi-transparent "play" icon. The curated lists show covers just fine.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But again, when has Smashwords ever announced this in advance of rolling out a new distribution agreement?


According to Mark:


> For anyone who's been following us over the last five years, this is the first time we've announced a new channel without first disclosing the financial details.





Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I can understand this gripe is Smashwords always announced new deals a month in advance and always required opt in instead of opt out. But they have never done that. They have always negotiated these deals and then rolled them out as soon as they were ready to go live. In truth, we've gotten MORE notice about this one than we've ever had about anything.


I understand what you are saying. Given the TOS, I agreed to let Mark add all of the distribution channels he wanted and automatically opt me in. I actually see that as a benefit, although it would be nice to have an account-level option for being being automatically opted in to new channels or not.

However, Oyster is not just another distribution channel. When my books get distributed to Sony, B&N, or any other _retailer_, I know that I'll get a royalty each time a reader buys a book. Oyster is not a retailer. I have no idea how I will be compensated for borrows. Since the deal is fundamentally different from the retail distribution model that existed when I signed up for Smashwords, it would be nice to know the details.



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> In addition, does Mark have a history of negotiating bad deals? I think he actually has a history of negotiating very fair terms that benefit authors. Keep in mind, Mark doesn't make money unless we do. And his cut is based on our cut. So if we don't make money on a deal, neither does he.


In Mark We Trust

Mark does have a good track record, I'll give you that. I don't think he would intentionally negotiate a bad deal. But again, this business model is new territory. What is fair compensation? No one knows, really. We can look to other industries, and base the royalty on projected borrows, but it's all a guess at this point. What Mark thinks is fair compensation may be unacceptable to authors. We won't know until we see the deal, and that's all I'm asking for.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> In addition, does Mark have a history of negotiating bad deals? I think he actually has a history of negotiating very fair terms that benefit authors. Keep in mind, Mark doesn't make money unless we do. And his cut is based on our cut. So if we don't make money on a deal, neither does he.


I agree that Mark has been a strong champion for authors, but that doesn't place him or his business decisions above scrutiny. While I am encouraged by his claim that he has negotiated fair royalty rates and acknowledge his admission that his hands are tied regarding making public the exact details, statements like the following, in response to questions on his blog regarding Amazon's potential to price match Oyster's "free," do not instill confidence (bolding mine):



> I think it's *unlikely *Amazon would price match against this, in the same way other retailers don't price match against Amazon for their KOLL feature. Oyster subscribers are paying for the service. If anyone's concerned, it's a fair question to email Amazon's support team.
> September 6, 2013 at 11:28 AM


I don't know if Amazon will price match (my gut says no, but business decisions should be based more on facts, less on intuition). But because it's a possibility, Mark should have clarified with Amazon _before _signing with Oyster and opting us all in. Now, instead of taking the lead on this, he's pawned it off on the authors.

And in response to a post regarding DRM, Mark's response also shows some inconsistency (or at least that his standards are not inviolable):



> David, Oyster is a closed reading environment, so it's fair to call that a form of DRM, just as library ebook checkout systems use DRM. For anyone who's followed us since the beginning, I've always spoken out against DRM and worked to educate readers and authors about its harm. The Smashwords store has always been DRM-free. In instances where we signed on retailers who only supported DRM, we switched to DRM-free once they supported it. When given the option to do DRM-free or DRM, we always choose DRM-free. However, *I'm not going to let my opposition to DRM prevent us from opening new channels.* DRM makes sense in library checkout systems. Oyster is very much like a library checkout system (though the financials for the author are different, as we'll share at a later date). If Sony ever goes DRM-free, we'll switch to that.
> September 10, 2013 at 9:06 AM


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

Ava Glass said:


> I think the only way to access the bulk of the catalog is through a keyword search. All the browsing categories I've seen are small and curated.
> 
> I did a search for "paranormal romance," and the books I sampled from the results all had the word "paranormal" in the description, but not "romance." People might need to SEO their descriptions if they want their books seen at all.
> 
> As for book covers...the thumbnails in the search results are about 2/3 the size of my actual thumbnail. Teeny-tiny. When I click on a book to get a better look, the cover is bigger, but the center is obscured by a semi-transparent "play" icon. The curated lists show covers just fine.


Yeah, the search function needs some serious work. The "Related" section for each book, too -- I looked at Related books from a YA work and found erotica because of similar names of the MCs. If people can't find what they want to read, there's a serious problem.

But I finished my first book on Oyster! Eve by Anna Carey. It's a nice interface. But a little slow and I've had a few crashes, so they definitely have some kinks to work out.


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## lazarusInfinity (Oct 2, 2012)

Anything that will help get material in front of more readers and further your brand is always great news.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

> Music-streaming services really don't exploit performers. Songwriters, though-that's another story.
> 
> In June, David Lowery, singer-guitarist of Cracker and Camper Van Beethoven, posted part of a royalty statement to his blog The Trichordist. Cracker's song "Low," he revealed, had been played 1,159,000 times on Pandora in three months; Lowery, in his capacity as the song's co-composer, was paid $16.89. For 116,280 plays on Spotify, Lowery got $12.05. Meanwhile, "Low" racked up only 18,797 plays on AM and FM radio stations during the same quarter. But for far fewer spins, Lowery received far more money: $1,373.78, to be exact.


Rest of the article at 
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/08/spotify_and_pandora_artist_payments_not_as_exploitative_as_they_re_made.html


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

Books are consumed so differently to music that a lot of those points don't translate. Author income from sales is going to be close to 100%, as opposed to 6%. And the writer there seems to think that Jay-Z's album earning $70,000 in a month via that channel is somehow okay. He's one of the most popular, profitable musicians in the world, and with that in mind that's a ludicrously small sum.

People happily jumping aboard Oyster because 'more exposure is great', is exactly what Oysters wants, but it's not really looking at the big picture. Being discovered by people on a subscription service isn't likely to translate into many sales on other platforms. It's just giving the service the leverage to become indispensable.

These days, I'd say the bulk of Gen Y and younger discover a good chunk of their new music via Spotify. If Oysters winds up with a true foothold in the market, and a similar thing happens with book discovery, your choice is going to be earning mere cents per read of your work, or just remaining utterly invisible.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Maya Cross said:


> These days, I'd say the bulk of Gen Y and younger discover a good chunk of their new music via Spotify. If Oysters winds up with a true foothold in the market, and a similar thing happens with book discovery, your choice is going to be earning mere cents per read of your work, or just remaining utterly invisible.


Unless authors only but older - backlist items in it that are not selling anymore. Then it could possibly be a good marketing tool. Only time will tell. A year or 3 from now we will know better.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Well, we should know any day now. Then we'll all either re-enroll our books, enroll only our cheapest ones, or run screaming from the program.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Christa Wick said:


> --------------Quote
> Music-streaming services really don't exploit performers. Song*writers*, though-that's another story.
> 
> In June, David Lowery, singer-guitarist of Cracker and Camper Van Beethoven, posted part of a royalty statement to his blog The Trichordist. Cracker's song "Low," he revealed, had been played 1,159,000 times on Pandora in three months; Lowery, in his capacity as the song's co-composer, was paid $16.89. For 116,280 plays on Spotify, Lowery got $12.05. Meanwhile, "Low" racked up only 18,797 plays on AM and FM radio stations during the same quarter. But for far fewer spins, Lowery received far more money: $1,373.78, to be exact.
> ...


Let's see: are we story performers, or story writers?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

That said, I have opted in the first novel in my series, but I will keep the sequels out. I opted out my non-fiction.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

Maya Cross said:


> Being discovered by people on a subscription service isn't likely to translate into many sales on other platforms. It's just giving the service the leverage to become indispensable.
> 
> These days, I'd say the bulk of Gen Y and younger discover a good chunk of their new music via Spotify. If Oysters winds up with a true foothold in the market, and a similar thing happens with book discovery, your choice is going to be earning mere cents per read of your work, or just remaining utterly invisible.


I get what you're saying, but using my experience as a Netflix customer, I sometimes purchase movies and tv shows on Amazon if I can't find what I want on Netflix. I've opted in two of my free books, but I'll wait until I read the terms before I opt in any of my more profitable works. And even if I do opt in with Oyster, I probably won't release books until many years after the initial release date, so that I don't cannibalize sales.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

So it's now on the iPad, no longer requires an invite to join, and is running a 30-day free promo.

So what happened with the Smashwords titles? What's the status on that?


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## adanlerma (Jan 16, 2012)

Ava Glass said:


> So it's now on the iPad, no longer requires an invite to join, and is running a 30-day free promo.
> 
> So what happened with the Smashwords titles? What's the status on that?


I've been wondering the same thing, what happened via Smashwords? I haven't heard anything new about the royalty rates or anything. Anyone have any news? Link to another thread? Thanks!


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

A whole lot of nothing.


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## adanlerma (Jan 16, 2012)

Amanda Brice said:


> A whole lot of nothing.


l love that, and so totally true, at least from my end 

as a precaution, i withdrew all but my free work (one piece) from distribution to Oyster

and within a reconsideration of the whole concept, have re-thunk ;-) Select and placed more work there


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

I wonder if the delay has something to do with the brouhaha over certain kinds of erotica. Maybe Oyster is nervous.


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

Everybody has clammed up.

I'm so sorry. I couldn't resist.


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## ShellyArbogast (Oct 18, 2013)

So what's the verdict on this? If we all put our books in does the world explode? I'm a "use every distribution channel ev4r" type of gal, but some of the talk in this thread has me a little nervous about taking Oyster for a spin.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

ShellyArbogast said:


> So what's the verdict on this? If we all put our books in does the world explode? I'm a "use every distribution channel ev4r" type of gal, but some of the talk in this thread has me a little nervous about taking Oyster for a spin.


You'll find pearls of wisdom on both sides of the discussion in this thread. If your general strategy is to get into every distribution channel in the sea, you might as well upend the half-shell and see how Oyster agrees with you. On the other hand, it probably won't hurt to wait and see which way the current flows before diving in. If the early adopters come back and say the water is warm, you can always dip a toe in later.


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

The email finally got sent out. I don't see anything in the email about staying quiet, so here are the details:



> As a Smashwords author or publisher, you'll earn 60% of you book's retail list price whenever an Oyster subscriber reads more than 10% of your book, starting from the beginning of the book forward. It's an author-friendly model. That's the same rate Smashwords authors earn when we sell ebooks through the major retailers such as Apple and Barnes and Noble.


Better than I hoped for. I opted in most of my books. (And as a reader, I really like the app.)


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Another thread discussing the terms...

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,165919.0/topicseen.html


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

Thanks -- I KNEW KBoards had to be discussing it somewhere, but I couldn't find it


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## Jill James (May 8, 2011)

One of my books has been sent and two to Flipkart so far.


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## johnaburks (Jul 7, 2013)

As a reader I'm pretty pumped about this.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Any news? This popped up in my twitter feed today.


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## polecat (Oct 18, 2013)

Problem is, it's only for Apple products apparently.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

polecat said:


> Problem is, it's only for Apple products apparently.


Looks like they just got a fist full o'dollars for an android version.

http://investorplace.com/ipo-playbook/oyster-ebooks-14-million-funding/

Anyone subscribed yet? I haven't got an Apple product to try it, nor am I in the US


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> Looks like they just got a fist full o'dollars for an android version.
> 
> http://investorplace.com/ipo-playbook/oyster-ebooks-14-million-funding/
> 
> Anyone subscribed yet? I haven't got an Apple product to try it, nor am I in the US


I got a free month trial, then paid for another month. I didn't use it _nearly_ enough to justify the cost - which I'd guess is their business model! 

The selection is mainly backlist-type stuff. Very few new releases, as expected. There's tons to read, though. For someone who reads very fast and just likes to browse, read, and browse some more, without anything particular in mind, I can imagine it's a good deal.


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