# Indie Authors, Did you seek traditional agents/publishers first?



## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

There's a lot of talk in KB about those "gatekeepers" (AKA literary agents). I tried the traditional route with Predators of Darkness: Aftermath and the process weighs heavy on the soul. A well-known publisher sat on my novel for nearly six years, expressing interest before finally letting go. Not that that's disheartening because they had taken interest, but that's a lot of time the book could have been available. From April 2010 until February 2011 I tried more than 100 agents. Several asked for the first fifty pages and several asked for full manuscripts. I had many letters that began, "Due to the current economy . . ."

I've learned with the new e-querying that agents are allowing, most don't even offer a reply.

So Indies, did you undergo similar processes? Have bites? How many tries before you decided to go Indie?


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## TWGallier (Apr 21, 2011)

Yes, I did.  Mostly, I sent straight to any publisher that accepted unsolicited manuscripts.  Those that didn't, I sent queries.  I never once got a response back on a query.  NOT A SINGLE RESPONSE.  The longest any publisher sat on one of my novels was 16 months, and then a form rejection.

After exhausting the publishers list, I started querying agents.  I at least got responses from all of them, but they were all rejects.  I really suck at query letters.  There isn't one iota of salesman within me.  I'm not hardwired that way.  That's why indie publishing appeals to me.  At least I can get my foot in the door.  Where it leads me, who knows.


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## Katy (Dec 16, 2010)

After reading stories like these, the whole thought of the query process was so depressing that I couldn't even finish my novel. 
When I started reading about Kindle publishing, I started writing again. Finished the book in a few months, and I couldn't be more thrilled now that it's on Kindle.


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

I tried it with Threads about 10 years ago, but didn't really want a publisher messing with it, so it was a half-hearted effort. It never crossed my mind, though, with Hang On. I went full indie and squandered my "first rights" (if they're worth so much to publishers, I want them for myself, just like I want my e-book rights to myself.)

I was reading a blog of traditionally published writers who went on about the added value of going traditional, and warned each other to not squander their "first rights" by self-publishing because no publisher will touch you, if you do that. So I looked into "first rights" to see if it was something I should worry about. I learned that traditionally published authors have six weeks to sell their books. Publishers view that first six weeks as "golden" and don't want it tainted by a previous release. That's when the publisher makes a marketing push (if, in fact, they do at all), and that is when authors sell the bulk of the books they're going to ever, ever sell. Nowadays they don't even edit for you, so I don't see much value in six weeks of marketing to offset it, and six weeks in bookstores before the cover is torn off and it's shipped back as a remainder.

I published Threads 10 years ago, and have only begun to really make money this year with the Kindle version. I don't care what happened in the first six weeks; that was 10 years ago. I know that "six weeks" is a blink of the eye in the eternity that is e-books and self-publishing. Whereas "six weeks" is the bulk of what you get from traditional publishing.

If I were a publisher, I would rethink "first rights" in a really big way. Bookstores don't have the clout they used to have, and (let's face it) may be going away. Instead of requiring first rights, I would look for proven sellers and buy them instead.

However, I would not let them publish mine. They figured out that the money is in e-books (as did I), and they want it for themselves (as do I). They're still reverting rights back to authors, but will they forever? Eternity is a long time for an e-book.


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## mikelewis (May 31, 2011)

Yes, Changers' Summer sat at Scholastic for  6 months, TOR for a year (before I pulled it) and a couple of others.

I had two agents ask for the full manuscript.

I have done quite well with short story sales but never managed to shift the novel, although reaction to it was generally good.

I have another completed 80K YA novel which I am thinking about self-publishing rather than sending out and then there are the two sequels to Changers' Summer which will be self-published.

I do intend to send out the adult SF novels I am working on, but I now have a couple of good contacts in that side of publishing so it is worth a try there.

Mike


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Nell Gavin said:


> If I were a publisher, I would rethink "first rights" in a really big way. Bookstores don't have the clout they used to have, and (let's face it) may be going away. Instead of requiring first rights, I would look for proven sellers and buy them instead.
> 
> However, I would not let them publish mine. They figured out that the money is in e-books (as did I), and they want it for themselves (as do I). They're still reverting rights back to authors, but will they forever? Eternity is a long time for an e-book.


I believe with the success of many Indie authors, these "first rights" are being reconsidered. Here's my take on being an Indie and why I finally chose this route.
1)Even traditionally published, I'd have to do the majority of publicity myself.
2)In the matter of six months to a year, my book might not be on the shelf. Not true with Kindle/Createspace.
3)The only book exposure, unless you're someone like King or Koontz, is how you market it. Social networking is key.


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## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

I queried 107 agents for _No Limit_, with only one real bite. She finally rejected it, because she said she wouldn't know whether to pitch it as sci-fi or thriller. I tried Tor, but got a form rejection, then Kensington, who almost immediately requested the full manuscript. Six months later, with nothing from them, I pulled it and decided to release it myself.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

No.
I lurked on some boards where writers hang out, prior to self-publishing, and I read one too many horror story of interminable waiting times, demands for rewrites for commercial reasons, draconian contracts, etc., etc.
To be fair: I don't have to live of my writing. On the other hand, I'm making a very nice amount of extra money and I've found a readership.
I'm perfectly happy being the captain of my own destiny.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Andrew Ashling said:


> No.
> I lurked on some boards where writers hang out, prior to self-publishing, and I read one too many horror story of interminable waiting times, demands for rewrites for commercial reasons, draconian contracts, etc., etc.
> To be fair: I don't have to live from my writing. On the other hand, I'm making a very nice amount of extra money and I've found a readership.
> I'm perfectly happy being the captain of my own destiny.


Technology has definitely changed the publishing process and helped authors reach audiences without the wait. I, too, like the more personal touch of connecting with my readers. Large Indie audiences are starting to get the attention of agents/publishers, too.


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## Ian Fraser (Mar 8, 2011)

Yes, went after and got a NY literary agent, who placed a couple of things but no major fireworks. Then I discovered Kindle  A bit of a tug of war developed - but we're still friends, and he's fascinated with the whole ebook thing. Especially the numbers of sales. 

I give him first looks at some of my titles and if he can get it seen fast enough by the big 6 editors, I wait the month or so till there's feedback and we have a 'discussion.' Then either I put it online, or let him keep trying. My best selling book is one he passed on (the 'deception' book) and the one that hasn't done much business yet, the 'fairyland' one, is the one the agent was most in love with and we almost fought over. So it just shows the unpredictability of what books will do...

I'm lucky to have a flexible agent, so he gets a look at most of what I'm churning out...


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Yes and had an agent. I was treated fairly and had favorable comments from publishers, my work vetted by professionals, but there was no market for cross-genre books, so I had receied "regret" letters. I started publishing my earlier works while waiting for my flagship book to catch fire. The kindle came around in 2007 and I started with books I never submittted to the traditional route. They started to sell with good to great feedback. So all I needed was an editor (and boy we all needed that). My agent encouraged me to go Indie, and when Mudania Press had praised my book (it went up three levels), but the final editor (the big cheese) couldn;t find a place in their limited marketing plan to publsh it. I then looked out and saw that I had published 8 books independantly. So I trned to my beta-readers and polled them. They said: "let that bird take flight." By then I had three books completed in the five book series, so I took the plunge with those in quick succession, and have written since exclusively Indie (and yes, with a great editor who works for sandwiches and the occasional IMAX theater ticket). Of course, because one of my books encourages Indies to become Indies, one would think that my tradtional publishing expeiience was horrendous. However, quite the contrary. I learned the process and had clear green lights from professionals, who told me to stick to my craft, because I ws born with the gift. Gifts should be shared, so onward and upward. The only bad publishing experience an author can have (and thank God I never had it) is PublishAmerican and their bait and switch deals.

Edward C. Patterson


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> The only bad publishing experience an author can have (and thank God I never had it) is PublishAmerican and their bait and switch deals.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson


Unless PublishAmerica has changed their contract, they assume publishing rights to novels printed through them for 7 years, which is a bad contract to sign. They also get first dibs on the next book the author writes. Not good, either.

I pulled my novels from Outskirts and will have all three published through Createspace within the next week (waiting to approve the proofs). The whole process through Createspace was $39.00 per book. Outskirts? $999.00 per book. Do the math. LOL


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> The only bad publishing experience an author can have (and thank God I never had it) is PublishAmerican and their bait and switch deals.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson


Out of curiosity, I looked and they're still in business - though how, I can't imagine. Amazon booted PublishAmerica from the site a few years ago, so you can't even sell your books. Even the testimonials they posted on the website are primarily rebuts of the bad press they get. I personally wouldn't bring bad press to anyone's attention, much less as a testimonial: "Although there is a lot of badmouthing of Publish America on the Internet, your publishing company gave me the priceless opportunity to be published as myself." Seriously. Wouldn't you snip that quote?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

And for us early CreateSpace users, the $39 upgrade was waived and the $5.00 annual charge also waived for the first 2 years. 

Edward C. Patterson


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## ASparrow (Oct 12, 2009)

Not really. I sent a few queries to agents for my first book, but the more I read about the traditional publishing industry the less interested I became in pursuing that route. I've gone three novels now without sending a query, with number four coming out by the end of summer.


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## S Jaffe (Jul 3, 2011)

I had an agent and have had my novels seen by top editors.  The response was the same.  We love your writing, love your stories, but we're not going to buy.  Took me years to figure that one out -- a) that I could write and b) they think what I write isn't commercial enough to sell 25,000+ copies.  But as an ebook, I don't have to sell 25,000+ copies to do well.  So, I've started the ebook route with a short story collection.  One of my books is with a small press that, if they take me on, will let me keep my e-rights.  Otherwise, over the next year, I'll be putting out all these books I've been trying to sell for years.

Having said all that, I know plenty of traditionally published authors who are very happy and satisfied with their experiences.  I think people like to gripe more than praise, so if you're just starting out, I'd recommend at least spending a few months sending out queries and trying.  The market is tighter than ever.  It's hard to break in.  But a good major publishing deal still has its values.  It won't pay the same royalties but there are other perks.  In the long run, I think the best careers for the majority of writers will be a combination of indie press and small press, with a lucky few also getting in the major presses.


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## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

I did the agent search/submission thing for a while. 

The agent search went relatively well. I sent out six, got ignored for three, rejected by one, and pages requested for two before ultimately being rejected.

Then I realized that the most likely outcome I could expect as a new, genre author was:

- six month delay while the agent shopped the books
- eighteen month delay while the publisher produced the books
- five thousand dollar advance that probably wouldn't earn out
- 80cents per sale royalties that I'd have to split with the agent
- up to a two year delay on the next book (assuming it was picked up)
- about 5000 units sold for a grand total income of what ever the advance was--split with the agent, taxes, and over three years. 

That's when I decided I was done with mainstream and started pursuing self-pub. Robin Sullivan convinced me to throw in with her wacky ideas about publisher/author relations while I was studying self publication -- and am I ever glad she did.


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## Tara Shuler (Apr 24, 2011)

No, no, no.

Several years of rejection letters, followed by 12-24 months until my book is actually published IF it's accepted. Not to mention the ridiculously low royalties for MY hard work?

NO THANKS!

I went SP, and I'm glad.

That's not to say I wouldn't accept a publishing contract if I were offered a good one, but it would have to be mutually beneficial. Most contracts swing heavily in favor of the publisher, and I'm just not thrilled with that idea.


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## Holly A Hook (Sep 19, 2010)

Tried it for several months and went into depression as a result, which I'm not exaggerating about.  I got some "we like this, but we can't sell it in today's market" type responses.  Now that I've released it myself and sold around 6,500 ebooks, I vowed I am never going back there.  Plu7s, I like that I can get books out faster myself.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Nathan Lowell said:


> Then I realized that the most likely outcome I could expect as a new, genre author was:
> 
> - six month delay while the agent shopped the books
> - eighteen month delay while the publisher produced the books
> ...


Thanks, Nathan, great points! That 18 month delay is rough, too.

Here's the irony for me. Last week when I had submitted all three books in my series to Createspace (did the process myself rather than pay publishing fees to someone else), I received an email from an agent I had queried six months prior. They wanted to see my book. I responded in kind and sent the first 50 pages, but I also informed them I had just gone through Createspace. I'm not sure how'd they'd approach making a deal, but they replied that they still were interested. What to do? What to do?


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Tara Shuler said:


> No, no, no.
> 
> Several years of rejection letters, followed by 12-24 months until my book is actually published IF it's accepted. Not to mention the ridiculously low royalties for MY hard work?
> 
> ...


Exactly. With my series, I keep getting asked, "When will the next be out?" So, that keeps me writing and optimistic.


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## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> Thanks, Nathan, great points! That 18 month delay is rough, too.
> 
> Here's the irony for me. Last week when I had submitted all three books in my series to Createspace (did the process myself rather than pay publishing fees to someone else), I received an email from an agent I had queried six months prior. They wanted to see my book. I responded in kind and sent the first 50 pages, but I also informed them I had just gone through Createspace. I'm not sure how'd they'd approach making a deal, but they replied that they still were interested. What to do? What to do?


Wait and see, wait and see.

Then if they like it, wait some more while they shop it around -- assuming they don't "suggest" some editorial changes "to make it more commercially viable."

You *could* hit the jackpot. The lottery survives because there's a winner almost every week.

I've said before that I'd consider a mainstream deal myself if one came my way, but it has to have a lot of zeros at the end and a number bigger than 1 to start or I just can't afford it.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Yes, a "jackpot" would be nice since my son is one year away from college and wants to become a pharmacist.  That's a lot of books to sell.  Lots of zeros behind the first number would be great.


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## Wren Emerson (Jan 15, 2011)

I've never submitted my work to an agent and I don't intend to. It's my personal feeling that agents are obsolete. If I'm ever approached for a publishing deal based on my indie success and the money seems right I'll hire an IP lawyer to handle the contract negotiations for me. I don't see the need to involve an agent (and their percentage) in any of it. 

Nothing against agents, in general. I don't think they are all unethical crooks or anything. They just seem redundant to me in the new landscape of publishing.


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## LucieSimone (Jun 30, 2011)

Yes, I queried over 50 agents and I got a lot of rejections that expressed how much they liked my writing, but that they couldn't sell my book in the current market. So, I decided to go it alone and started my own small press, Simon & Fig. I made a lot of mistakes out of the gate, but 9 months later, I think I've finally figured a few things out. Like joining Kindleboards, for one!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I suppose I'm a variation on this theme:

First: yes, I had done the query thing before, and I was getting ready to do it again when I first read Joe Konrath's blog.  I had some books I'd always intended to self-publish (after I got rich an famous) so I started there with on intention of giving up on trad pub.  Then I fell in love with indie publishing.

I have no problem with the gate keeping system. I don't mind rejections, and I'm not that impatient. (Never was interested in agents, though.)

What I minded was what was going on at the other end.  If publishing still operated the way it did fifty years ago, I might still be interested in the traditional side of the business -- but the fact that every new series I got attached to was gone with in three or four books, every favorite new author out on her ear, THAT is what caused me to take stock and decide against having anything to do with NY publishing.

(NOTE: I didn't really blame the publishers, because the thing that really killed midlist mysteries was Barnes and Noble's distribution system.)

I first noticed this in the late nineties, and I took myself out of the pool. I went for screenwriting and script analysis for a while.  But it was hard to stay away, and I started to notice more cozy mysteries cropping up on the bookstore shelves.  Maybe the climate had turned around. A little.

And I was getting all ready to hold my nose and jump back in when I stumbled across Konrath's blog. And I saw there was now a possible way around chain booksellers.  And besides, I love being a publisher.

So I honestly have to say I have nothing against the gatekeeping system, the problems is what's behind the gate they're keeping.

Camille


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> So Indies, did you undergo similar processes? Have bites? How many tries before you decided to go Indie?


I do both.

<for those with short attention spans, skip ahead to the next red line>

My novel ROAD TO HELL was accepted on its first submission. Due to its shorter length (50k), I opted to go with a small epublisher who had already put out two short works of mine. That comes out in Nov in ebook and print.

My epic fantasy TRANQUILITY'S BLAZE was accepted on its second submission, but again never received a rejection. I opted to go with a small niche press for that one. That comes out in Feb 2012 in ebook and print.

My two short single title short fictions, HARVEST MOON and FLYING KITE CRASHING SHIP had 1 rejection each. I opted to stop pursuing magazines and try my hand at single title publication for them to try something new. I'm really happy with the choice I made for those. I was going to offer THE AMAZING TRANSFORMATION OF WICCA DOG as a free download on my website, but didn't want to fiddle with that. So, I put it on Smashwords and randomly make it free off and on.

My non-fiction NO MORE BLANK SCREEN was meant to be self-published from the beginning, though I wasn't sure how I was going to get it out. Eventually, I decided to do a standard ebook. I don't think I'll bother with a print book for it, unless I feel I need a few at conventions.

Currently, I'm writing three books. TRANQUILITY'S GRIEF is a second book of a series, so I'll be sending that at the publisher when I'm done. SPIRITS RISING was created to be a self-published novella series. I wanted to write an urban fantasy set in Newfoundland (where I'm from) and I wanted control over it. SISIP LEARNS TO SHAPESHIFT is my children's historical fantasy, which I aim to submit to Canadian regional small presses next year sometime.

Red Line

I've never had an agent. I've been able to do things myself. I do like working with publishers. I like working for myself, too. So, I do both. Writing is my career. It isn't about me proving or disproving the "new landscape of publishing" or "publishing is dead" or whatever. I want to make the choices for each project that works out to be the best way to get it out there and the best way for me to make a living from it. It helps that I already know I'm a strong enough writer, so I have the luxury of making those choices.

One thing that I strive for, however, is that I want no difference in writing/editing/formatting between my trade books and my self-published books. I want people to becomes fans of my work and never see a difference in the writing quality or editing (and, again, I'm not talking typos or a missing word here...I'm talking real editing, not proofreading).

I have so many projects that I often forget I have things out on submission. The exception is when I'm close to be supposing to hear. In those cases, I become a basketcase waiting around.

Anyway, those are my thoughts and experiences on the entire thing.


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## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

I did the whole querying agents and publishers with a few books. I was offered a very nice contract on one series but I turned it down and decided to e-publish myself. I like having full control over everything. It's interesting to do the whole querying and rejections etc. But the thought of your acceptance or rejection hinging on the mood of an editor on a given day is a bit blah to me.

I'm certain I can do far better myself. So I'm happy and it's an adventure 

Bilinda


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

I spent over a decade chasing traditional publishing deals.  I had two agents, neither sold a thing for me.  I’ve collected hundreds of rejections for five different novels and now I’m just a week or two away from releasing my first self published novel.  Whether I succeed or fail, I'm already secure with my decision.  The helplessness and frustration that accompanies the traditional model is debilitating.  You really do come away feeling like it’s a lotto.  It’s so hard not to sound like sour grapes.  I watched friends and colleagues land deals, and I was always happy for their successes.   But I won’t concede that my work wasn’t every bit as strong and as publishable.  Their work simply resonated with one person in a position of power and the rest is history.  Now I will sink or swim on my own merits.

I can live with that.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

I could wallpaper a room with rejection letters.    I could do the same with the good reviews I've received from my Indie published books.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I had quite an amount of interest and personal emails regarding Lunch Break Thrillers, but at the end of the day the gist was, that it is nigh on impossible to sell compilations of short stories as an unknown. Having reached the rank of number 800 overall, and  rank 4 for its category in the UK and 20,000 overall in the US at its peak, I am well satisfied that I self published.

I am even more excited that this week I'll be publishing, The End, or a New Dawn short story as a German translation. The story is included included in the compilation and also available as a single short. I'll be including German, American and UK English versions in one eBook. The story reached the finals of a Harper Collins competition judged by their editors and some of their authors, so I am quietly confident it will be well received. Next week, I should have the translation back for, The Enemy Within, so at least it won't be just one story in German.

I doubt I would waste my time again with agents again, especially with short stories of any description.


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## Bryan R. Dennis (May 19, 2011)

I never bothered. I read JA Konrath's blog and the news headlines about Amanda Hocking, and then I realized that my daughter, who loves to read, never asks to go to the library. She ALWAYS asks to borrow the Kindle. That's when I made the decision to skip traditional publishers. Figured I'd rather sail with the wind than against it. At the back of my mind, I'm curious if my book would have made it going the other route, but I'm enjoying the self-publishing experience thus far.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Decon's post reminds me of something that's really frustrating me about publishing right now. There's been so much talk about how you "need" an agent to publish that too many people seem to think you actually do need one. You don't. Sure, there are certain publishers that will not work with you if you don't have an agent, but plenty will. Some prefer it. Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and in with the Canadian SF&F crowd. I see and know a lot of small press owners and authors. Small and micro presses are doing very well in the new age of publishing. 

Like I said, I've never sent my work to an agent. I've never needed one. Instead, I researched the publishers that I wanted to submit to and did that. 

If someone wants to self-publish and have researched, I think that's good. But I always feel uncomfortable when people treat self-publishing as a natural end of being unable to find an agent without ever having even submitted to a publisher (if trade publication was their dream). not saying that's Decon's case (he's right that short story collections are a tough sell as an unknown unless you can hit your regional market), just a general statement.


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## gatehouseauthor (Apr 22, 2011)

Nell Gavin said:


> Out of curiosity, I looked and they're still in business - though how, I can't imagine. Amazon booted PublishAmerica from the site a few years ago, so you can't even sell your books.


Not that I'm a PublishAmerica fan (I avoided them like the plague, and usually skip over a book if I see it's by them), I don't know if that's accurate. I know of at least one book on Amazon that's currently available and lists PublishAmerica as the publisher. It's actually not a bad book... I read it at the request of the author. But I would hope that these days, more indie authors are doing the research, and learning what PA really is and why to avoid them.

As for me, I found an agent very quickly after finishing my first book. Worked with her for 2 years, which was a good experience. Got a lot of feedback from the big publishing houses, which was always upbeat, and there was a lot of interest. Unfortunately, nothing panned out, and after two years, I hadn't written anything outside of my series, so my agent and I parted ways. It was amicable, and I'd contact her again if I had an offer and needed representation. But then I let my book languish for 3 more years before I finally decided to self-pub. Now that I have... I won't be looking back. The only reason I'd query for an agent is if I had an offer and needed someone to negotiate on my behalf.


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## Todd Russell (Mar 27, 2011)

Yes, I did in 1989 and had some positive and negative experiences. It's all in the past.


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## jackblaine (May 22, 2011)

I have a NY agent, and am currently trad published (in my real name) as well as being an indie (pseudonym).  I like both experiences, for different reasons.


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## WilliamEsmont (May 3, 2010)

I queried a handful of agents for my first novel (which shall remain forever locked away on my hard drive) and for Self Arrest. I even had a close call with Self Arrest where one asked for and read the full manuscript. But after waiting five months, they said "sorry, not for us." 

Five months? Really?

I went straight indie with Patriot Paradox and Fire. After 18K sales I have no regrets.

Would I go trad in the future? Sure, but only under the right circumstances.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Yes, the waiting factor is difficult.  Thankfully, technology has changed.  I'd hate to know I had to go back to writing on a typewriter.


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## JeffMariotte (Jun 4, 2011)

I've had 44 novels and a handful of nonfiction books published traditionally, and for many years I was supporting myself and my family largely on my writing (we also own a bookstore, and that helped too). I have an agent who did not, in fact, sell most of those books--the majority of them are licensed fiction (CSI, Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, Supernatural, Spider-Man, etc.), and those were typically deals that came to me or that I sought out, but my agent was often to negotiate better contracts than I would have been able to on my own. My agent was able to sell some original novels for me.

But over the past couple of years, publishing has been in upheaval. Editors have been fired, lines slashed, and it's harder than ever to sell an original. My agent is out with one right now, a crime novel that has been getting rejections that read like glowing, 5-star reviews. So far, though, no bites.

Since I've had friends with similar career paths selling lots of e-books, I thought I'd give it a try. Hence my bringing into e-print the only one of my backlist books that I currently own the rights to, _The Slab_, and e-publishing the teen horror/paranormal romance _Carnival Summer_ and thriller _The Devil's Bait_. I didn't try to sell either of those latter two books traditionally--why muddy the waters while my agent is out with the crime novel? I expect that as time goes on I'll continue trying to live in both camps, as long as I can.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I went the traditional route and don't regret it, but I don't want to repeat it. My next book will go straight to Kindle.

Risen was nine months in the writing (while writing and editing a cartoon show for CBS), 15 months looking for an agent, 12 months finding a publisher, 6 months on sale and 6 years after that out of print and unavailable.

My Kindle sales are still a fraction of what I received from my print publisher, but it's early yet and sales are growing. Most importantly, my work is available to those who are interested, and I know I'll have an audience for my next book.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

I have never tried an agent - I don't have the time and money to query them for five years, and there are basically no Canadian agents for romance now taking clients, so I didn't bother. And, thus, I will not be able to try the big brick-n-mortar publishers, since no agent means no submission (or, if they graciously allow you to mail it to them: no response). 

Writing to agents takes a lot of time that needs to be spent elsewhere for me - like writing, day job, parenting, etc. If that were my only recourse, I would blog my writing for free and feel just as fine. 

ETA: Naturally, that was not my only recourse, as you can see by the books in my signature. I have enjoyed working with several small ebook publishers - not the fabled "NY House," but also not attached to agent-only submission policies, either. That works fine for me.


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## Bryan Cohen (Aug 28, 2010)

Very cool reading all of these stories! I went the indie publishing route because it seemed simpler and I have no regrets. After going through Createspace, I even have a few paper copies circulating through the world. I'm as happy as a clam :-D.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I have never tried an agent - I don't have the time and money to query them for five years, and there are basically no Canadian agents for romance now taking clients, so I didn't bother. And, thus, I will not be able to try the big brick-n-mortar publishers, since no agent means no submission (or, if they graciously allow you to mail it to them: no response).
> 
> Writing to agents takes a lot of time that needs to be spent elsewhere for me - like writing, day job, parenting, etc. If that were my only recourse, I would blog my writing for free and feel just as fine.
> 
> ETA: Naturally, that was not my only recourse, as you can see by the books in my signature. I have enjoyed working with several small ebook publishers - not the fabled "NY House," but also not attached to agent-only submission policies, either. That works fine for me.


Romance publishers, especially epublishers and small press, are among the most open and welcoming to new authors. Also, the experienced gained from working with a publisher and learning to grow in those cases can't be measured.


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## JamieDeBree (Oct 1, 2010)

No querying here...thought about it, researched it (for several years), nearly quit writing at the pressure of writing to certain markets, all the waiting, all the approval needed, more waiting, changing my stories to suit other tastes, more waiting...

I just wanted to write stories, and get them to readers. 

I thought about it some more, and decided I'd rather do things myself. No complaints, no regrets...and I doubt I'd take a NY deal unless there was a *ton* of money involved (which for what I write, isn't all that likely). I'm really happy running my own little pub imprint now...and I'll be publishing a couple friends in the next few months as well.


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2011)

A bit of background - my first book was published by in the nineties, in an industry where everyone self-published (and still does). After multiple books and some non-fiction (sales in four figures) I decided to adopt a penname, publish mainstream and go the traditional route.

The result was Fire Season, which was rejected by every agent I sent it to, then bought by the first publisher. Then orphaned and sold to another publisher. Then released from that publisher. Then got interest from another large publisher, who weren't sure about a gap in their schedule, but wanted an exclusive for months while they thought about it. Along the way I found out that if I was traditionally published as a new author, I'd be doing pretty much all the same work I would if I self-published, but for a fraction of the royalties. This was when I decided I'd had enough and went indie through a small press.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Not really is probably my answer too. Years ago I joined Rocky Mountain Fiction Writers, attended some of their conferences, and entered 2 of my books in their Colorado Gold contests. I attended agent/editor conferences and had invites to submit partials. One agent asked for a full manuscript of _Rottweiler Rescue_ and the editor who judged the finals of the contest it won was interested in it. _Eyes of Silver, Eyes of Gold_ was a finalist in two contests and also generated some of that kind of interest. However, I never did the querying and submitting those agents/editors invited me to do.

What happened to me was first, the people I talked to all immediately started in about how I had to change things I didn't want to change, that were to me integral to my stories. Second, other members of RMFW who were published were honest with me about how much a traditional contract would bring. Call me a mercenary no good, but there are a lot of easier ways to earn that kind of money with less aggravation. The end result was I put away any idea of being published and quit writing novels with 2.5 books finished at that point. When I heard about KDP, I was at a very different life stage, didn't expect much from it but thought why not? I have 2 finished books that will disappear when I die if I do nothing.

None of my books are the runaway bestsellers we hear about here on KB, but all have been solid, steady sellers, and each has earned more than I'd have probably gotten as an advance from a traditional publisher for such a book. Since self-publishing I've been approached by 2 traditional publishers. One offered a contract that appalled me and I didn't sign. I just had a nice conversation with the other - enough to get an idea how much I didn't want to do that. My third book is the .5 finished and out, and I also finished a short story and got it out in April. I'm working on a 3d romance now and expect it and a sequel to the mystery to be done this year. I am delighted with how it's all going and have no regrets at all.


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## Doug DePew (Mar 26, 2011)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> So Indies, did you undergo similar processes? Have bites? How many tries before you decided to go Indie?


I never considered publishing traditionally.

I knew how and where my book was being published before I started it.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Romance publishers, especially epublishers and small press, are among the most open and welcoming to new authors. Also, the experienced gained from working with a publisher and learning to grow in those cases can't be measured.


Yes, I am glad to be working with publishers - just ones that don't require/prefer an agent, so my MS doesn't have to sit in the slushpile of unsolicited manuscripts for two years or get an autoreject. I agree, working with my publishers has been useful, and I am glad I went this route.

You also have to be careful that you select quality ebook publishers, though, as some are more dedicated to quality than others. And, it's your face with egg on it if they let you slide with amateur work.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I've had three agents and even worked for one agency. My books went on submission several times. Lots of near misses, with comments such as, "I couldn't stop reading this, but how many people would be interested in a thriller set in a polygamist community?" or, "Absolutely compelling, but there isn't much of a market for a suspense thriller from the point of view of a paralyzed man.

Tens of thousands of sales later, I think there are a few people interested in that kind of book. And now that I've proven the concept, I've had agents and publishers approach me, instead of the other way around. I've still got writing and sales challenges, but I've got options now, and people are reading my books. That's all I ever wanted out of life.


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## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

I spent two years looking for an agent. Once I got one, I was with him for four years. HarperCollins had Priscilla the Great for 8 months and sent me through three complete revisions before rejecting me even after my agent sold the movie option! Henry Holt had The Queen Bee of Bridgeton for TWO YEARS and sent me through three complete rewrites before I finally pulled it and published it myself.


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## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

I queried a few agents, had a request for chapters from a couple...but it was far too soon in my writing endeavors....my writing wasn't good enough at the time, so it came to nothing.

Later, I submitted chapters to a publisher, as requested by their acquisitions editor. I was subsequently asked for the full. But after a few months, they passed on it.

I submitted chapters of another novel to a different publisher and was asked for the full. The editor told me that the story was intense, well-written and she loved it. She said it would be published...but not by them, because they had one requirement the story didn't meet.

During this time, I'd begun studying the publishing industry, and what I was learning was not encouraging. And I could see big changes looming on the horizon. Some of my writer friends were very put out with me for pointing out what was coming, and they told me I was wrong. Turns out, I was right. Anyway, I changed directions, and I'm so glad I did. And to tell the truth, if I were approached by a publisher right now with a contract (a very unlikely scenario), I doubt I'd take them up on any offers.


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

I am with my fourth major agent, although she has nothing to do with my indie stuff.  I fired the first three over the years.  Not because they were bad, but because I didn't know what I was doing.  
I don't believe agents are obsolete.  In fact, I'll be meeting two different agents this week while in NY for T-Fest.  Foreign rights is an area I want to pursue and an agent is a big help in that area.  An agent can also keep your name in mind when hearing about different things going on, such as ghost-writing or collaborations.
I do think for writers who kept getting close and positive feedback but never landed an agent, or landed an agent who couldn't sell the book for whatever reason, it's a great time.  Indie publishing is the perfect solution.  It's inspiring to hear all the success stories of books that would have never seen the light of day in NY breaking out through the author's efforts.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

I spent a little over two years submitting manuscripts to publishers and queries to agents. I had some limited success but I never managed to land an agent or a publishing deal except for a couple of short stories. The time spent wasn't a waste since I got to work on my writing but the steady stream of soul killing rejection letters is something I hated. In contrast, I'm doing a lot better self-publishing. My sales aren't the greatest. They tend to fluctuate wildly but I feel good about my writing. It's a shame my luck with publishers hasn't changed. I've been waiting forever to hear back from two of them.


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## HeidiHall (Sep 5, 2010)

Nope. My husband used to roll his eyes and say, "You know, an agent is never going to knock on the door to see if you have a book to publish." I would shrug and write some more . When I heard about self-publishing I was finally ready to send my babies out into the world with the only possible rejection being from readers. It has been an overwhelmingly positive experience so far. And now, they may not knock on my door, but there is every possibility that an agent/publisher will seek me out. I'm not opposed to traditional publishing and would consider a favorable offer should one come my way. The great thing is that I don't need that to happen to be successful.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I will say I hate writing query letters and synopsis (is the plural synopsii  ). There's no more difficult task in writing than those. It's like taking a final exam, only you need to wait 6 months for the results, and since each is single threaded, the wait is torturous. BTW, my agent was a better editor than agent. She taught me some amazing things and I owe her for some major developments that have contributed to my success. I also had an assigned editor when I was working with anotherchapter.com - the editor from hell - who nearly gave me a nervous breakdown. However, her whip set me on the road to my final style and goals. We're the best of friends now, although I can;t afford to have her as an editor. She gets a gratis copy of each of my books - to wit, she's been mum on them (although she complained about needing to build another shelf to hold them all)    I truly believe that my experience with the professionals erased any doubts from my mind that I was ready for prime time. The rest is up to my readers, who have either embraced me or have been kind after 248 reviews and only a light sprinkling of ones and two stars. Whew! But readers rule. It's their kingdom after all. We're just the architects.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> So Indies, did you undergo similar processes? Have bites? How many tries before you decided to go Indie?


I've done the agent hunt in the past but not on this particular book. I wrote it planning to self-pub it.


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## Russell Brooks (Dec 23, 2010)

I went the traditional route for several months. I had a lot of biters who then wrote back and gave their excuses, saying that there's no market for my kind of book, blah blah blah. It was nothing more than a complete waste of my time. I'm glad that I went Indie, I've been reviewed several times and most of them 4-5 stars. So I believe that I've proved the literary agents and publishers wrong. My only challenge is being able to reach more people.


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes I did, however, because I was so green when I started the search for agents, I burned through all the ones I really wanted and by the time I got a clue - there wasn't anyone that I really wanted to woo, and I had already burned my bridges by being a novice with the top folks.  I went to a small publisher with my Game series because it was way off the beaten path from mainstream fiction and I needed to find a nich market for the erotic thriller series.  

My mainstream series has a few non-consent scenes in it and because of that the mainstream publishers wouldn't touch it.  I got accepted by a more popular publisher, but when they realized the climax included that 'type scene', they backpeddeled.  When my erotic publisher branched out into mainstream fiction, I jumped at the chance and got Dark Reckoning out on their shelf.  Unfortunately, that venture dried up and I pulled my books, publishing them myself.  

Now I'm a publisher as well as a writer and I'm very willing to push the envelope for our label but only if the story demands it.  

Would I take an offer of representation now?  I don't know.  I'm a pretty darn good negotiator, so I might turn down an agent - but if a big contract was laid at my feet - I'd certainly run it by a good lawyer who knew his way around the biz.


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## Author Eyes (Nov 26, 2009)

I did. For several years and with different novels. The closest I ever got was two editors at Harper Collins who almost said "yes" to Radium Halos.


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## Simon Habegger (Apr 19, 2011)

I was living abroad when I wrote The Cricket, without even access to a printer.  I tried to find an agent that would handle it -- I felt that having someone sitting in New York trying to shop my book would be more effective that doing it myself from rural Thailand -- but none ever wrote back to me.  I don`t blame them, I don`t have any reason to think that I can write a good eye-catching synopsis; but at the same time, The Cricket is a good book, one that will benefit from being read and discussed.  As an author I don`t want to spend my life rewriting the same book, and I appreciate Amazon making this platform available so I can put it out there and move on.

That said, I`m a bit daunted at the challenge of promoting and distributing it.  I know that at one level, a book has to sell itself; but particularly at the beginning, it needs a bit of a boost from me.  I miss that function of the old publishers, the distribution network for which they took 85% or so . . .


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

Yeah, I did, but the response for my fiction was cold, and downright hostile for my non fiction. It's nice that both fiction and non-fiction are selling better than I expected . Thank [insert favoured deity here] for digital distribution.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

WriterGurl1 said:


> but there is every possibility that an agent/publisher will seek me out. I'm not opposed to traditional publishing and would consider a favorable offer should one come my way. The great thing is that I don't need that to happen to be successful.


Yes, agents/publishers are watching Indies now. I believe Amazon capitalized on the digital age well before agents/publishers had a clue how big an impact it would be. Great to hear all these stories and glad to be a part of this new age of publishing.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

I'm on agent #3 with # of books sold to trad publishers zero.

My current agent is with DGLM, so they'll work with me on my indie pubbing if I elect.


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

I had an agent for my trilogy several years ago. We had sincere interest from a few editors and the books even went to acquisitions once, but got kicked back by sales and marketing. By the time we sent my standalone novel around, publishing had entered its major slowdown. Eventually, I told my agent I wanted to self-publish. He gave his blessing and we peacefully parted ways. 

Recently I had a foreign rights inquiry from a publisher in Europe. I contacted my agent, because I knew it was over my head to handle anything like that. So we're working together loosely once more. I have no plans to pursue U.S. traditional publishers again - been there, done that. If they're ever interested, we'll talk maybe. But right now I'm pretty happy with they way things are.


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## Hans Cummings (May 16, 2011)

I tried several times (no where near the 20+ to get the number of rejects I'm supposed to experience before "making it"). I tried both with agents and publishers who accept unsolicited manuscripts. The few rejection letters I received were clearly form letters that told me nothing about what I was doing wrong, if my queries sucked, or my writing sucked, just no meaningful feedback whatsoever, making it very difficult to correct any mistakes (if any), I was making.

One thing that really put me off was the etiquette of not shopping the same manuscript around to more than one publisher/agent at a time. So, once I sent it in, I was supposed to sit on it until I got a response. Well, when that response is 4-6 months of waiting followed by NOTHING (because their policy is "If you don't hear from us, you're rejected), I quickly grow weary of the process, especially when they refuse to tell you how long the process is supposed to take and flat out say "Don't follow up with us." In other words, they're "too busy" to act with proper professionalism and courtesy and basically tell you that if you don't bow down to them and take it exactly the way they want to give it to you, you're out.

After about a year of wasting my time waiting on responses that were not coming, I decided to look into self-publishing. I'm nearly 40 years old. I don't have time to waste on unprofessional people who think they're better than me and refuse to even give me the common courtesy of a reply (even to just let me know my manuscript was received; for all I know, everything I sent out vanished). Life's too short to play those games.

Now, they want to tell me because I didn't bend knee and beg for acceptance from them that I'm some sort of lesser author? I have some words for them I can't type here. 

Everything the Big 6 can do for my writing, I can do for myself, except throw the kind of money towards marketing they do. So, I'm starting off in the back of the pack from that perspective. I can hire my own editors who will be as good if not better than the editors they employ. I can commission my own cover art. I can do my own layout. I can publish it myself. My print price will be hire than they could have, but I won't have cases of books lying around taking up space, either. I'll be able to set a reasonable e-book price, and I'll have better terms and better royalties than they'd be willing to share with me. And I won't have to put up with them acting like they're doing me a favor by giving me whatever miserable little royalty rate is the going rate these days. They're not going to offer 70%.

So why should I even try to talk to one of the Big 6 now? I don't need them. My readers don't need them. Publishing is changing. They need to get with the program or they're going to go the way of the Do-Do, all the while complaining that they're better than us, they're better than the consumers and not understanding why they're failing.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

HansCummings said:


> Everything the Big 6 can do for my writing, I can do for myself, except throw the kind of money towards marketing they do. So, I'm starting off in the back of the pack from that perspective.


Marketing by the Big 6 for a new, upcoming author is very slim and often rare. They push their money and interest into the well-established, big name best-selling authors. Which is why I knew coming into Indie publishing I'd be doing the majority of publicity and marketing myself, and if published by a major, traditional publisher, it would probably be the same.

During the past year of searching for an agent, I've met some gracious ones. Yet, our current economy is also a big factor in why it's harder than ever to get into the traditional publishing houses.

Many years ago, when I first started trying the traditional route, here's one point an agent told me over the phone that has stuck with me every since. "Almost everyone has a computer now, and everyone "thinks" they have a book to write, so we're inundated with everything and have to sort through the mess to find one gem." This also enforces your point about getting an editor, too. Our manuscripts need to be the best possible.


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## Carolyn J. Rose Mystery Writer (Aug 10, 2010)

I queried 235 agents before I decided to indie publish An Uncertain Refuge. Many wanted to see a partial or the whole book, but . . 
I'm blogging about my decision to do it myself on Suspense Your Disbelief. http://www.jennymilchman.com/blog/?p=1684


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I've been surprised to learn how many other writers have suffered the same fate that I have. I'd always assumed that most writers either tried a couple of times and gave up, kept writing, but never progressed, or broke through after a few tries. My own situation, writing novel after novel, and getting so close, only to fall short, seemed unique to me, either a case of being good, but not quite good enough, or simple bad luck. I can now see that there are quite a few writers who have suffered not just one or two, but a series of near misses.

BTW, even though I've had multiple agents and a number of shorter pieces to paid markets, I'm well past 1,000 rejection letters. I used to count them when they came in paper form, and I was somewhere in the 700s when most of my submissions and subsequent rejections started to come via email.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Let me see...

18 months, over 300 queries. Several close calls, and one agent who wanted to represent me then went incommunicado for reasons I can only guess.

I'd say that's a fairly normal story.


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## S Jaffe (Jul 3, 2011)

When this thread first started I thought it was interesting and a bit of a place to vent.  But as it's progressed, it has become a bit inspiring to see how many of us are in the same boat.  So much of writing is a lone pursuit that we often forget that the rejections are something we all go through.  Thanks to everyone contributing here.  You make this writer feel one tiny bit less alone.


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

I've played the agent game several times, for several books. Had partial requests, full requests, but no offer. Can't remember exactly how many years I've wasted on that, but probably over 3 years combined. Now what Sybil has shared makes me happy I never landed an agent:



Sybil Nelson said:


> I spent two years looking for an agent. Once I got one, I was with him for four years. HarperCollins had Priscilla the Great for 8 months and sent me through three complete revisions before rejecting me even after my agent sold the movie option! Henry Holt had The Queen Bee of Bridgeton for TWO YEARS and sent me through three complete rewrites before I finally pulled it and published it myself.


Being dumped after 3 rewrites would have killed me. One rewrite is bad enough. A "no thanks" after 3 is beyond bad.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

S Jaffe said:


> it has become a bit inspiring to see how many of us are in the same boat. So much of writing is a lone pursuit that we often forget that the rejections are something we all go through. Thanks to everyone contributing here. You make this writer feel one tiny bit less alone.


I agree. Everyone has had some very interesting experiences. Thanks for sharing!


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

Newbie jumping in!!!

I have an agent. I queried my top 20 and got offers from 7 total, pulled some and about 7 rejections. It happened super-quick. A little insane actually. I wasn't prepared because you hear how slow everything moves. I thought I'd be waiting for months.

Anyway, I'm publishing under the real name with the agent. She's 100% on board with my business plan. We go to submission in the next few weeks. The hold was because I made some major changes to the series and wanted to be able to hand the first two done and solid after watching 3 friends struggle because they had no breathing room after signing the contract.

She's also 100% behind me indie publishing under my Caitie name. Actually, she wants monthly numbers. She's really curious where it's going to go and is watching what I'm doing, how I'm doing it and what the outcome is. It wouldn't suprise me to find out I'm her research project for assisting other clients in diving in as well. 

Luckily, she understands that a writer has to diversify her career these days. That indie publishing is a completely viable option and that... as long as you have clear understanding of what you're doing and why... you should build your career in whatever you *as the author* think is appropriate as long as the business plan is cohesive as a while.

Oh, and she's getting a kick out of how much fun I'm having in this new world.



~Caitie


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## C. Rose (Mar 22, 2011)

I queried 146 agents. I did 8 rewrites. I ended up having five agents offering me representation. I interviewed three out of the five and chose one. 

One of the questions I asked them was, "What happens if you don't sell my book?" 
They replied that in their history, only once before did they not sell a book of an author they were representing.

Unfortunately, I was #2 on that list.

My agent worked hard to sell my book for a year and a half - probably two years. We got close, but we kept hearing, "We love the book, we just don't know how we'd sell it."

Unless you sell a book, however, you're not going to get an agent's attention and guidance - or at least it will be tough if that person is at a top agency. What I was lacking was any kind of help or guidance from my agent as I wrote novels #2 (which took them six months to read, and then couldn't offer me any helpful notes - I finally workshopped it and got great feedback) and #3. 

When she offered the same kind of vague response with #3, that was when I decided I was going back to #1 and release it myself.  I had many friends offer to introduce me to their agents, but who's to say that they wouldn't have tried to sell book #1 or even book #3 for two years and reach the same "we love it but don't know how to sell it" point.

I can write. I can market. I can sell. I can build a web site. I can write a press release, I can write a business and marketing plan. 

And in a few weeks, we'll see if I'm right about all of those things.

I know that some people love their agents and get terrific guidance from their agents and maybe if I had a different agent, or had looked for a different agent earlier on, I would feel differently. Maybe the concept of agenting needs to change/adjust.  Maybe I will meet a great agent some day through self-publishing that will be able to offer me the type of guidance I am looking for (and I know other writers get from their agents).


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Caitie Quinn said:


> Newbie jumping in!!!
> 
> I have an agent. I queried my top 20 and got offers from 7 total, pulled some and about 7 rejections. It happened super-quick. A little insane actually. I wasn't prepared because you hear how slow everything moves. I thought I'd be waiting for months.
> 
> ...


Congrats on having the best of both worlds! Much success to you.


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## Izzy Hammerstein (Jul 6, 2011)

I went straight to Indie publishing without stopping in jail.

For every Stephen King or JK Rowling though I sometimes wonder how many good authors simply went under just because the powers that be in the publishing world never saw the potential.  It's a tragic outcome.

In fact I heard a story of how Staff from certain Publishing Houses were fired for turning down Harry Potter.  Too busy living the lifestyle with their wine and cheese parties perhaps.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Art Epstein said:


> I went straight to Indie publishing without stopping in jail.
> 
> For every Stephen King or JK Rowling though I sometimes wonder how many good authors simply went under just because the powers that be in the publishing world never saw the potential. It's a tragic outcome.


Yes, this is true. For the most part it seems that agents are seeking the huge breakout novel and traditional publishers don't want to invest time and money in building a new author's career. Yet, if you're a celebrity, good or bad, publishers offer tons of money to get a biography out there.

Stephen King had four novels shot down before he was finally accepted and crowned "King of Horror."


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

So true!

I was just at the RWA national conference this past week and Madeline Hunter was the keynote at one of the lunches. She spoke briefly about being your own publisher. Along with some other positive things she said that "self-publishing is now the ace in our back pocket" and talked about how we NEVER are stuck being no'd to death by NY... and all but offered them a challenge to catch up.

Between that and everything else, she was really inspiring.


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## Izzy Hammerstein (Jul 6, 2011)

Caitie Quinn said:


> So true!
> 
> I was just at the RWA national conference this past week and Madeline Hunter was the keynote at one of the lunches. She spoke briefly about being your own publisher. Along with some other positive things she said that "self-publishing is now the ace in our back pocket" and talked about how we NEVER are stuck being no'd to death by NY... and all but offered them a challenge to catch up.
> 
> Between that and everything else, she was really inspiring.


Believe me it isn't just New York saying Nein...London is pretty full of the big No as well. Hence why I brought up the JK Rowling Story. In her case she was Talented and Lucky, as was Stephen King. But a chill goes down my spine at how many other manuscripts were ignored and just left to rot.

Something has begun to change and I'm sure the Publishing industry doesn't like it one bit. You have established authors, "Made Guys", turning down half a million dollar book deals becasue they can do better on their own.

I have my novel at 99 cents so I'm hardly going to be flying in a private jet any time soon. But I have the satisfaction of knowing I won't have to wait one or two years only to end up with a "No". I worked hard and my book's out there. It's actually being read by the public which is a great thrill.
And it's great hearing from other authors as I feel I'm not alone.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

^^^

Exactly.  Hearing from other authors in similar situations let's us know we're in this together.  It does feel great to hear from readers about our books, too.  Thanks, everyone for sharing!


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## Rogerelwell (May 19, 2011)

I had a go, on and off, over 4-5 years, with "The Sarrhian Seed".

I got some good responses, like 'you write really well, but it's not quite for us' - really helpful, not.  I also got asked for the full manuscript from one agent, who was really interested.  Then I heard nothing for ages, and eventually sent a gentle remninder.  They'd lost it.  I sent it again (they asked), and again heard nothing.

With the launch of e-readers, I decided to wait until the capability was there for me to do it myself in that medium.  I'm really pleased that I have full control - even if it means I get low levels of sales.  Of course I'd love to sell millions, but even a few (and some good reviews) means I have at least brought some fun to some people.

I don't like the way that agents and traditional publishers get to decide what everyone reads, though I understand that they are businesses and therefore look for the 'certs'.  What gets me, like it does most other people, is that perfectly good stuff never makes it (and I mean here, stuff that is eminently readable, entertaining (as opposed to works of towering literary art) and likely to provide a good number of people with a bit of escapism), whilst 'celebrity authors' get their stuff published, no questions asked.  

...but then the world never has been fair, and never will be.

What we need now is a number of really good sites that help indie authors to promote their work...

That's what I think is really great about e-readers. People like me now get the opportunity to see our stuff offered on proper sites, and get the buzz from seeing the sales come in (even if they are small amounts).  Never would have happened without the e-book.

Would I go to an agent if my book (books to come) started to become successful (however unlikely)?  Who's to say, but someone would have to put a pretty good case to me, now that I can do it myself this way.


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## Theresaragan (Jul 1, 2011)

Yep, I tried for 19 years to get my foot in the door. I snagged two agents, finaled in RWA's Golden Heart 6 times, and I worked with two editors in NY. One left the publishing house before I signed and the other editor asked me to add 20,000 words, which I did, and then left that publishing house, too. The most important thing for me was that through it all, I never stopped writing. I've written more than ten 400 page novels and too many partials to count. My agent was still reading my most recent romantic thriller when I decided I was done waiting. With my youngest daughter going to college, I needed to go back to work full time. With nothing to lose, I put two of my books on Amazon and when those started selling I told my agent I was going to give this indie author thing a try. I'm so glad I did. Amazon and Kindle changed my life. I get to write full time. Many blogs I read say that to do well as an indie author you need to put in your 10,000 hours first. I have no idea if that's true, but I've put in about 20,000, so I'm good.


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## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

Really interesting to read all your stories.

Once I thought I'd written a publishable book, my third, I gave myself a year to seek mainstream publication before self-publishing. A desperate decision, as the Kindle hadn't reached the UK and I was thinking of touting POD paperbacks round the bookshops. In that year I had four requests for the full typescript, two from agents who'd spotted my writing on Authonomy and in a short story contest. But no contract. Two said they'd like to read my next novel.

I was really lucky to self-publish a couple of months after the Kindle hit the UK last year, and _Remix _rode the wave of Christmas Kindle sales. When I finished my next book, I put it straight on Amazon. Once it had sold a few thousand, I wrote to five agents, including the two who'd expressed interest in my next book. I told them my sales figures for both books. I got five rejections, only one mentioning my sales. It was like they were pretending ebooks hadn't happened.

A writer acquaintance got an agent about the time I finished _Remix_. The agent failed to place her book, and she's now writing another. I can't help but reflect that in that time, I've sold 35,000 books, and she's sold none. I'm not saying I wouldn't like mainstream publication, but it would have to be the right deal. I wouldn't be all eager and grateful as I would have been a year ago.

Lexi


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## MGalloway (Jun 21, 2011)

Tommie Lyn said:


> During this time, I'd begun studying the publishing industry, and what I was learning was not encouraging. And I could see big changes looming on the horizon. Some of my writer friends were very put out with me for pointing out what was coming, and they told me I was wrong. Turns out, I was right. Anyway, I changed directions, and I'm so glad I did. And to tell the truth, if I were approached by a publisher right now with a contract (a very unlikely scenario), I doubt I'd take them up on any offers.


I think I'm in a similar boat.

For the last several years I've been querying agents periodically for various manuscripts. I've had a few occasions where they wanted to see the full manuscript and another one wanted several chapters. Yet I could see major changes coming with the publishing industry, and I could see the agent submission guidelines changing quite a bit...especially over the past couple of years. More and more of them wanted you to approach them with a ready-made platform, and I knew from reading other articles that more and more of the promotion was being left up to the author.

I figured if I was going to do all the work of building a platform and handling a great deal of promotion...I might as well be starting my own small business. I've read several books on starting your own business, and I found the parallels to what was going on in publishing to be striking.

I also entered one of my novels into the Writer's Digest Self-Publishing contest and it did very well. The judge said they couldn't think of any way of improving the book I submitted, and that I should "seek out a New York House for my next book".

Something tells me I should take a pass on that suggestion...


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Lexi Revellian said:


> A writer acquaintance got an agent about the time I finished _Remix_. The agent failed to place her book, and she's now writing another. I can't help but reflect that in that time, *I've sold 35,000 books*, and she's sold none. I'm not saying I wouldn't like mainstream publication, but it would have to be the right deal. I wouldn't be all eager and grateful as I would have been a year ago.
> 
> Lexi


Wow! Great job!


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I queried eight agents. Yes, only eight. I got two rejections and didn't hear from the rest. After that I realized I didn't want to get a $5,000 advance that I would have to spend on traveling to book signings and trying to do all that to sell books. It just wasn't for me.

So I self-published.

After I sold 10,000 books, and had gotten contacted about foreign rights, I queried a few more agents. One got back right away, read the book, and passed on it. One said they didn't represent already published books. The others ignored me. When sales really took off, and I made the NYT's best seller list, I got emails from about eight different agents asking about representation. I signed with Rachel Vogel.

I did get an offer from a traditional publisher, but it was for Avon Impulse, Ebook only. I declined the offer and am going it alone. Rachel is supportive of my decision.

Vicki


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Victorine said:


> I queried eight agents. Yes, only eight. I got two rejections and didn't hear from the rest. After that I realized I didn't want to get a $5,000 advance that I would have to spend on traveling to book signings and trying to do all that to sell books. It just wasn't for me.
> 
> So I self-published.
> 
> ...


Yes, $5,000 doesn't go far and especially not for marketing or promotion book tours. I wish I had found out more about Kindle Direct and CS well before I had. It would have saved me a lot of headaches.


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

I queried a ton of agents. I tracked them in a huge binder and even on an Excel spreadsheet. Many _didn't even bother to respond_, others were apparently so short on paper or maybe cash that they sent me a cut-up piece of paper with a typed-up rejection that was crooked on the page, still others asked for the full (some of those got back to me), _but by then: I WAS DONE!!!!_

Best decision I've made so far has been to self-publish. No joke.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Katherine Owen said:


> I queried a ton of agents. I tracked them in a huge binder and even on an Excel spreadsheet. Many _didn't even bother to respond_, others were apparently so short on paper or maybe cash that they sent me a cut-up piece of paper with a typed-up rejection that was crooked on the page, still others asked for the full (some of those got back to me), _but by then: I WAS DONE!!!!_
> 
> Best decision I've made so far has been to self-publish. No joke.


Back when I sent paper queries, I received a lot of those cut forms, which I understand their reasons. Cuts down on paper/ink costs. With the majority of agents "going green," I've found that over 60% don't respond if they're not interested. That makes the waiting time more difficult because we really don't know if they've read our queries yet. Of course, receiving 1400 or more queries a week demands a LOT of time, too.


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> Back when I sent paper queries, I received a lot of those cut forms, which I understand their reasons. Cuts down on paper/ink costs. With the majority of agents "going green," I've found that over 60% don't respond if they're not interested. That makes the waiting time more difficult because we really don't know if they've read our queries yet. Of course, receiving 1400 or more queries a week demands a LOT of time, too.


Oh I _get_ why they do it (though I doubt it has anything to do with being green), but I've worked in high tech for years where real business actually responds in a timely manner to everyone. Regardless, what people do for their job; we're all busy, overworked, and stressed. The treatment of aspiring writers by traditional publishing is just deplorable. There are no excuses for it. _Really. _


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

^^^

I agree.


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## Bojan Miladinovic (Jul 6, 2011)

I live in Serbia. We have not here agents. I finished my first book (February 2009) and sent to publishers (about 30). I got about 5 emails back, economics crisis bla bla...and one interesting letter (approximately): Bojan, book is interesting, not too much for editing etc, but no chance for benefit if you have not background as Big Brother competitor or similar. I did not believe in that fact, so I put my novel (about 160.000 words) for free download and start write 2nd. After one year I send my 2nd novel (about 50.000 words) to publishers and nothing...I decided to translate in English 2nd novel. (translator done, my English is poor)...Ufff hell. I think that I sent about 300 letters. I got about 100 predefined answers, 1 request for first 50 pages and a few interesting answers : we have not market for Serbian novel! Oh yes, I will make market...so I put on Amazon a month ago and we will see... That's my story  Sorry for English, I hope that you understand story.
I forgot. 80% books here are translated. If NY Times wrote only one sentence about book, yeah wow, amazing...and sales going on...Publishers broke legs to buy rights for 'Tiger's Wife'...


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

Bojan Miladinovic said:


> I live in Serbia. We have not here agents. I finished my first book (February 2009) and sent to publishers (about 30). I got about 5 emails back, economics crisis bla bla...and one interesting letter (approximately): Bojan, book is interesting, not too much for editing etc, but no chance for benefit if you have not background as Big Brother competitor or similar. I did not believe in that fact, so I put my novel (about 160.000 words) for free download and start write 2nd. After one year I send my 2nd novel (about 50.000 words) to publishers and nothing...I decided to translate in English 2nd novel. (translator done, my English is poor)...Ufff hell. I think that I sent about 300 letters. I got about 100 predefined answers, 1 request for first 50 pages and a few interesting answers : we have not market for Serbian novel! Oh yes, I will make market...so I put on Amazon a month ago and we will see... That's my story  Sorry for English, I hope that you understand story.
> I forgot. 80% books here are translated. If NY Times wrote only one sentence about book, yeah wow, amazing...and sales going on...Publishers broke legs to buy rights for 'Tiger's Wife'...


I do. Nice book cover. The important thing is you persevered and you are definitely not alone in doing so. Best of luck and much wishes for success with your work!

KO


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

A friend of mine wrote a thriller - and got it published with a small publisher. He's got the education and background that should have 'made' the book. But in trade publishing he didn't even earn his miniscule advance. He wants to go Indie - with 3 books in the series. 


So he asked me for help.  

Times have changed, for many people Indie is the best way to go.


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm on my way back home from Thrillerfest.  We've already posted two blogs on initial impressions but I will do a longer one this week on what I picked up, especially the day I had two meetings with agents.  One regarding foreign rights and the other my current agent.  In the latter case, she's a very experienced agent with several #1 bestselling authors in her stable and she wanted me to walk her through what I was doing as an indie.  She was so excited for me and writers in general in that she felt we now had options outside of the constricted lines of traditional publishing.  The good writers could make it on their own.


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

Bob Mayer said:


> I'm on my way back home from Thrillerfest. We've already posted two blogs on initial impressions but I will do a longer one this week on what I picked up, especially the day I had two meetings with agents. One regarding foreign rights and the other my current agent. In the latter case, she's a very experienced agent with several #1 bestselling authors in her stable and she wanted me to walk her through what I was doing as an indie. She was so excited for me and writers in general in that she felt we now had options outside of the constricted lines of traditional publishing. The good writers could make it on their own.


Can't wait to hear what you discovered. Looking forward to your posts!

Katherine Owen


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## keybounce (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm not published yet, but the prospect of sending off a package to a reader who may have rejected Rowling, or, just to dream a bit, have it short-listed onto some pile, only to be told to redo this and makeover that on the chance that it might then possibly be acceptable if the wind is blowing right, or if not, have it sent back to start the above over and over again with twenty other agents/pubs hoping to get lucky before the sun becomes a supernova? Hell yeah, count me in. I'd rather go for less cash and less readers on Kindle NOW.


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

keybounce said:


> I'm not published yet, but the prospect of sending off a package to a reader who may have rejected Rowling, or, just to dream a bit, have it short-listed onto some pile, only to be told to redo this and makeover that on the chance that it might then possibly be acceptable if the wind is blowing right, or if not, have it sent back to start the above over and over again with twenty other agents/pubs hoping to get lucky before the sun becomes a supernova? Hell yeah, count me in. I'd rather go for less cash and less readers on Kindle NOW.


Exactly right!


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm not sure how to answer the question.  All but one of the stories in my collection did their time in the slush pile and sold to magazines, some for very nice pay rates.  So in a sense they've already been traditionally published.

But the collection as a whole -- I didn't look for a publisher.  Speculative fiction collections are notoriously difficult to sell and anyway, I wanted to dip my foot into the self-publishing waters and see whether it's worth the effort.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Bob Mayer said:


> I'm on my way back home from Thrillerfest. We've already posted two blogs on initial impressions but I will do a longer one this week on what I picked up, especially the day I had two meetings with agents. One regarding foreign rights and the other my current agent. In the latter case, she's a very experienced agent with several #1 bestselling authors in her stable and she wanted me to walk her through what I was doing as an indie. She was so excited for me and writers in general in that she felt we now had options outside of the constricted lines of traditional publishing. The good writers could make it on their own.


Yes, we do, and with rather good results, too.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

K. A. Jordan said:


> A friend of mine wrote a thriller - and got it published with a small publisher. He's got the education and background that should have 'made' the book. But in trade publishing he didn't even earn his miniscule advance. He wants to go Indie - with 3 books in the series.
> 
> So he asked me for help.
> 
> Times have changed, for many people Indie is the best way to go.


Good luck!


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Fredster said:


> I queried 107 agents for _No Limit_, with only one real bite. She finally rejected it, because she said she wouldn't know whether to pitch it as sci-fi or thriller. I tried Tor, but got a form rejection, then Kensington, who almost immediately requested the full manuscript. Six months later, with nothing from them, I pulled it and decided to release it myself.


I tried about 100 agents with THE PETOSKEY STONE, got requests for the whole MS, got rejected. One agent/editor worked with me for a year to improve it, but in the end didn't take it -- it was heartbreaking. I sat on it for a few years, entered it in the Breakthrough contest, where it did well and I had new hope. So here it is on kindle. The agent thing is a horrible process.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Jon Olson said:


> The agent thing is a horrible process.


It's tough and with Borders crashing, I imagine it will get tougher to find an agent or a traditional publisher.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Finally received word back from last agent.  After sending me a personal request for my novel, I get an impersonal rejection via WEbook.  At least they responded.  LOL


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## Arthur Mackeown (Jun 12, 2011)

I've been publishing short stories in magazines for the past three years. It's a good way to learn whether or not your work reaches the minimum standards of the industry and, if not, why not.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

Yes. I fired off seven query emails, and one letter...before the dirty, pandering feeling stopped me. I had already self-published, and decided to put my spare energy into marketing and promoting my novel. Best decision ever.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Steven Konkoly said:


> Yes. I fired off seven query emails, and one letter...before the dirty, pandering feeling stopped me. I had already self-published, and decided to put my spare energy into marketing and promoting my novel. *Best decision ever*.


I'm satisfied with the decision myself.


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

I tried the traditional route first, querying agents. It's my first book and it was what everyone expected me to do, trying to do it the "old established way". I was going to give myself all of this year to make a go of it, but the more I read about how traditional publishing works, and the advantages of self publishing, I gave up the querying process after a couple of months. I probably send 40 or so queries, from which I got a bunch partial and full requests but everything ended in rejection. The only result of the process? I went from thinking my book was decent enough to hold it's own amongst published books (no masterpiece, it's a first novel after all, but good enough) to feeling like it was untouchable rubbish. Even now I'm self published I'm still getting the occasional form rejection email from agents I queried months ago, just to keep kicking me a little longer.  

My book was released on kindle and paperback about 3 weeks ago, and I've sold a reasonable amount of copies now, and getting really nice feedback from readers and reviewers. It's making me feel better   But still, that "professional" rejection plays in my mind. I wish I'd just gone indie right from the start and saved my self confidence a little.


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

Selina Fenech said:


> I tried the traditional route first, querying agents. It's my first book and it was what everyone expected me to do, trying to do it the "old established way". I was going to give myself all of this year to make a go of it, but the more I read about how traditional publishing works, and the advantages of self publishing, I gave up the querying process after a couple of months. I probably send 40 or so queries, from which I got a bunch partial and full requests but everything ended in rejection. The only result of the process? I went from thinking my book was decent enough to hold it's own amongst published books (no masterpiece, it's a first novel after all, but good enough) to feeling like it was untouchable rubbish. Even now I'm self published I'm still getting the occasional form rejection email from agents I queried months ago, just to keep kicking me a little longer.
> 
> My book was released on kindle and paperback about 3 weeks ago, and I've sold a reasonable amount of copies now, and getting really nice feedback from readers and reviewers. It's making me feel better  But still, that "professional" rejection plays in my mind. I wish I'd just gone indie right from the start and saved my self confidence a little.


Hang in there! Your readers will make all the difference as your novel gets read. The most amazing thing to me is the reader who takes the time to write a review of my novels and raves about it. Those are _the gifts_ that are worthwhile to take away from your writing and spur you on to your next achievement~next book.


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## karenk105 (Jul 7, 2011)

Yeah... I tried querying agents and publishers about 6 years ago. I gave up after the first few years, but I kept writing. (I started writing screenplays instead) 

Then I learned about this e-publishing thing, and it lit a fire under me. I dusted off my old novels and... voila! So if it looks like I'm writing at the speed of light, I'm not! lol! It's just that I have a considerable backlog. (which I'm editing like crazy!!)


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

karenk105 said:


> Yeah... I tried querying agents and publishers about 6 years ago. I gave up after the first few years, but I kept writing. (I started writing screenplays instead)
> 
> Then I learned about this e-publishing thing, and it lit a fire under me. I dusted off my old novels and... voila! So if it looks like I'm writing at the speed of light, I'm not! lol! It's just that I have a considerable backlog. (which I'm editing like crazy!!)


Yes, I've only had mine available via Kindle and Nook for about 2 months and wish I had known about this a year ago. I'm revising a dark fantasy that has set in a box for 11 years. It's amazing how much my writing has matured since then!


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Yes, I did and here are the results:










These are over 200 rejection letters. And those are just the ones that bothered to reply. I go into more detail on this on my website. If you're interested you can check it out here:
http://mikedennisnoir.com/keep-writing-those-query-letters-boys-and-girls/2319/


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

I spent years trying to get an agent or standard "traditional" publisher to publish my fiction.  They all acted like I had the plague.  So, I began publishing for Kindle.  I didn't take it seriously until this year and now my sales have really taken off.  I feel some justification for my fiction writing.

I did find two "traditional" publishers for my non-fiction work for a few years and published about a half-dozen or so books in history and true crime genres.  But now I am finishing up another true crime book and thinking I might just publish that digitally, as well.  My digital books now far outsell my traditionally published works.


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

Yes I tried the traditional route first. I never bothered trying to get an agent though. I wasn't interested in being rejected by both agents AND publishers. I just ignored the requirements where they said "We only accept agented manuscripts" and sent mine in anyway. 

Perhaps in the future after I have several books out, self published, if they become popular works I'll get one. If that happens it will depend on if I'm interested in what they're offering.


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## jonathanmoeller (Apr 19, 2011)

Yes. I stopped after I discovered Kindle Direct.

I still send stuff to editors with whom I already have a relationship, but I haven't done any cold submissions since April.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Yes, but after many non-replies and no followup even from a few agents who asked for the full manuscript, I gave up on them. Self-publishing has made me happier than I can express.


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## emilyward (Mar 5, 2011)

I thought about it with my novella, but I decided that Amazon was the best market for a book 40,000 words long. With my two fantasy books coming up, I'm going to go straight to Kindle without trying to look for an agent. I don't know much about the fantasy market of print/traditional books, but I know it when it comes to Kindle/self-published. 

That said, I have a YA urban fantasy/dystopia that I will try to find an agent for. I think it would find a great market in the "traditional" publishing world. If my self-publishing on Amazon goes extremely well, I may reconsider, but I would love to see this book picked up by a publisher. I also have a YA contemporary fantasy WIP that will go to agents first. If I finish it


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

DChase said:


> Yes, but after many non-replies and no followup even from a few agents who asked for the full manuscript, I gave up on them. Self-publishing hads made me happier than I can express.


Roughly 25% of agents I queried never responded. These were e-queries, too. The biggest complaint on Agentquery and QueryTracker is their non-response, which many deem unprofessional.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

_Spoil of War_ made it to the acquisitions table twice -- once at a Big Six imprint and once at a digital imprint -- and two agents sent revision letters in addition to a bunch of other agents who rejected the full with personal letters. The most memorable was the agent who said she "literally couldn't put it down" but didn't know how to market it since it's a bit cross-genre (women's historical x historical romance).

I'm almost done shopping one now -- a near-future medical thriller that's at a publisher waiting on a yay or nay after they requested the full off a partial. I had not just one or two but several agents actually apologize for not taking it on. These were personal, quite heartfelt rejections -- not the form _not right for us, but another agent might feel differently_ variety. So I know it resonates. I'm prepping the book for self-pubbing and come Aug 31 I plan to pull it from publisher consideration if I haven't heard back from them and release it Sept 1.

I know a bestselling author who's about to jump ship and start self-pubbing as well. And I saw recently where one of the Big Six relegated a debut YA title to "midlist" status and gave it no push whatsoever. It released in early March and has yet to sell even 500 copies.

With the right books self-pubbing can be lucrative. But there are still a lot of authors jumping on the bandwagon with wholly unrealistic expectations. And it's just going to get tougher out there .... Publisher backing CAN make a difference. Like pricing, I suppose, it's all in what the author wants out of the experience.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> _Spoil of War_ made it to the acquisitions table twice -- once at a Big Six imprint and once at a digital imprint -- and two agents sent revision letters in addition to a bunch of other agents who rejected the full with personal letters. The most memorable was the agent who said she "literally couldn't put it down" but didn't know how to market it since it's a bit cross-genre (women's historical x historical romance).
> 
> I'm almost done shopping one now -- a near-future medical thriller that's at a publisher waiting on a yay or nay after they requested the full off a partial. I had not just one or two but several agents actually apologize for not taking it on. These were personal, quite heartfelt rejections -- not the form _not right for us, but another agent might feel differently_ variety. So I know it resonates. I'm prepping the book for self-pubbing and come Aug 31 I plan to pull it from publisher consideration if I haven't heard back from them and release it Sept 1.
> 
> ...


Yes, I've had those with apologetic tones, too. It's a great feeling they like it that well, but depressing because they don't know how to place it.

Good luck and hope you hear back something positive soon!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> Yes, I did and here are the results:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! I'm glad the majority of mine are emailed. That's a lot of clutter.


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## Andrew Davis (Aug 5, 2011)

_God Bless Mr. Devil _ has over 250 rejections over it's lifetime.
As for _Hard Road Home_, I didn't even keep up with them.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Andrew Davis said:


> _God Bless Mr. Devil _ has over 250 rejections over it's lifetime.
> As for _Hard Road Home_, I didn't even keep up with them.


Wow!


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2011)

I sent my first novel to a very well known fantasy agent. He objected to the fact that my protagonist was a sort of knight Templar (the agent is a Dawkins' drone and very anti anything remotely religious). He argued that you can't reference real religion in fantasy (he'd obviously never read R.E. Howard's Solomon Kane stories; then there's the excellent SF example of Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow).

Nevertheless, I took the advice and completely redrafted (and produced a much better book as a result). He took another look at it and his only comment was that he hadn't fallen in love with it. He thought I might have success with a different agent. My response: life's too short. It's a huge weight off my shoulders having decided to pursue the indie thing 100%.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

derekprior said:


> I sent my first novel to a very well known fantasy agent. He objected to the fact that my protagonist was a sort of knight Templar (the agent is a Dawkins' drone and very anti anything remotely religious). He argued that you can't reference real religion in fantasy (he'd obviously never read R.E. Howard's Solomon Kane stories; then there's the excellent SF example of Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow).


I had some comments like this when my agent took The Righteous on submission a couple of years ago. New York is a more secular part of the country and based on my experience, I'd say that of the editors I've met about 1/3 are Jewish (usually, but not always secular), 1/3 come from backgrounds with little or no religion, and the final 1/3 are non-practicing Catholics, Episcopalians, or some other religion from the Northeast. A book about a group of fundamentalist polygamist Mormons didn't resonate with them. I got a lot of comments like, "I could not put this book down, but I'm not sure there's a market for this sort of thing." It struck me as a very myopic view, and I'm glad that I've been able to prove those opinions wrong.

It isn't mentioned very often, but I think one of the weaknesses of traditional publishing is that huge segments of the reading public are underrepresented by the decision makers. Editors get sick of reading vampire novels or get burned by having bought up books of questionable quality during the last craze and so they won't buy any more. Westerns don't sell like they used to and so all the imprints dry up like tumbleweed and blow away. Hard science fiction and space opera are also hard to place. Nevertheless, there are thousands of readers who still love these kinds of stories. A writer can sell ten thousand ebooks at 2.99 and be a great success, whereas a publisher would consider these numbers a failure.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> It isn't mentioned very often, but I think one of the weaknesses of traditional publishing is that huge segments of the reading public are underrepresented by the decision makers. Editors get sick of reading vampire novels or get burned by having bought up books of questionable quality during the last craze and so they won't buy any more. Westerns don't sell like they used to and so all the imprints dry up like tumbleweed and blow away. Hard science fiction and space opera are also hard to place. Nevertheless, there are thousands of readers who still love these kinds of stories. A writer can sell ten thousand ebooks at 2.99 and be a great success, whereas a publisher would consider these numbers a failure.


It is their very weakness, but an independents strength. Trad's look for big numbers. Trad's can only publish a limited number of titles each year, thereby leaving smaller niche genres with a very narrow selection. Selling 10K copies of a 3.99 ebook is not doing anything for the big publisher--but it's a high gross of $28K for the independent author, which can pay for gas and groceries. With 3 or 4 titles selling it could be comfy.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

It's interesting that agents are now wanting to publish Indies on Kindle and charge 15%.  Thanks for the feedback, folks!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Wow, still receiving the occasional "reject" letter from queries I sent nearly 9 months ago.


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## KateEllison (Jul 9, 2011)

I queried, read agent/editor blogs, the whole song-and-dance for almost 3 years. I got a short story published, which was great, and then I discovered the whole indie movement. I was completely captivated. Previously, I had done fairly well with a MS I was shopping around to agents (got a number of partial/full requests, and heard some very nice things about the writing) but I was worried about the changing face of publishing, all the waiting, the lack of author control, etc. 

I decided to try the indie route after I'd been told by several agents that they would still be open to queries from me even if I had been previously self-published. My original intent was to test the waters a little with my self-pubbed stuff while still querying agents. But now I'm not currently interested in querying. I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of traditional/indie hybrid deal sometime in the future, should I ever be successful enough to get offered one, but I am LOVING being an indie and all the benefits and freedom that come with that.


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## Jean E (Aug 29, 2011)

i tried about a dozen, which I realise isn't much.  Though I did have visions of papering my walls with rejection letters.  The more I found out about the publishing industry the more disheartened I became.  Then someone told me about independent publishing.  I love the direct contact it affords between the writer and the reader.  Now what I would like to see the 'gatekeepers' being blown away in a tide of indie publishing and the gates going with them.  I know there are problems with indie publishing but it's got to be better than having to put up with a pile of people all trying to snatch some of you book as it travels between you and the reader.


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## GlennGamble (Sep 15, 2011)

I didn't possess the patience to query agents.  When I wrote my first book, I wanted to get it out to the public.  I just couldn't wait for agents and editors to vet me, for I'm impatient.  Now I'm glad that I did it my way.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

While not a "reject" Michael got a letter from Baen books who, after years finally got around to reviewing his submission.  They were interested but  since that time he self-published it, and sold it to their competitor Orbit...A bit slow are we?  I'm not even sure why they responded I totally forgot I submitted there and by reminding me they just exposed how broken their system is.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

rsullivan9597 said:


> While not a "reject" Michael got a letter from Baen books who, after years finally got around to reviewing his submission. They were interested but since that time he self-published it, and sold it to their competitor Orbit...A bit slow are we? I'm not even sure why they responded I totally forgot I submitted there and by reminding me they just exposed how broken their system is.


Baen Books kept Predators of Darkness: Aftermath for nearly three years. Oddly enough, after I self-published, they requested me to resend the novel. They're all really good people there, and since they work between several offices in different states, I believe they lose track of things.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> Wow, still receiving the occasional "reject" letter from queries I sent nearly 9 months ago.


That's one of the main reasons I decided to self-publish. It's one thing to receive a rejection letter. It's another thing to have to wait several months, and in many cases, years to receive them. No fun at all.


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## Dee Ernst (Jan 10, 2011)

I had a terrific agent who tried like anything to get two of my books published.  She really believed.  She also helped me a great deal as far as geting to a much better final product.  When I told her I was self-pubbing the last book, she gave me her blessing, and asked that I be sure to send her the next thing I wrote.  I'd love for her to get something for all the time she put in for me, but now I don't care about getting traditionally pubbed.  I can't imagine sitting around waiting for all those editors to meet and talk and decide and meet again while I could be making money that I don't have to share.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Kevis Hendrickson said:


> That's one of the main reasons I decided to self-publish. It's one thing to receive a rejection letter. It's another thing to have to wait several months, and in many cases, years to receive them. No fun at all.


So true.


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## J.R.Mooneyham (Mar 14, 2011)

Decades back (say 1980 or so) when I was contemplating writing something (but hadn't yet) I bought stuff like Writer's Market and Writer's Digest, and read a bit elsewhere about the trials and tribulations of famous authors like Stephen King, etc. All of that was enormously discouraging, and I simply couldn't have endured shipping hundreds of typed pages back and forth to publishers hundreds of times, just to get a stack of rejection slips and large postal bills. My ego has never been that strong (or else I've never been that desperate: take your pick).

So instead I did desktop publishing on demand, maybe before the term publishing on demand had even been coined yet (again, around 1980 I think). I created a how-to manual for the T-shirt airbrushing business, for artist entrepreneurs, and arranged to sell it through a well known mail order airbrush supply place in Florida. If I recall, my wholesale price the store paid me was $20 each, and they charged $40 for them (note that the manual described how to use that store's own private brand of paint). They'd occasionally order a batch, and I'd print and assemble them, and ship them out.

In the years to follow I also published some software I developed, through mail order CDs and floppies and online download channels (this was in the days before web browsing, when AOL was king).

Once the web became available, I began publishing content to that, eventually making money in various ways from the effort. 

I did all that without traditional agents or publishers, managing to pay my bills and (largely) avoid regular 9-5 jobs, for most of my life now.

Then Amazon came along with KDP, and now I'm publishing my own ebooks. Again, with no traditional agents or publishers involved.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

I used to go the traditional route.

Haven't done that for over a year.

The result? I'm about to release my SECOND novel... even if it's just a novella.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I used to go the traditional route.
> 
> Haven't done that for over a year.
> 
> The result? I'm about to release my SECOND novel... even if it's just a novella.


Congrats!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

J.R.Mooneyham said:


> Decades back (say 1980 or so) when I was contemplating writing something (but hadn't yet) I bought stuff like Writer's Market and Writer's Digest, and read a bit elsewhere about the trials and tribulations of famous authors like Stephen King, etc. All of that was enormously discouraging, and I simply couldn't have endured shipping hundreds of typed pages back and forth to publishers hundreds of times, just to get a stack of rejection slips and large postal bills. My ego has never been that strong (or else I've never been that desperate: take your pick).
> 
> So instead I did desktop publishing on demand, maybe before the term publishing on demand had even been coined yet (again, around 1980 I think). I created a how-to manual for the T-shirt airbrushing business, for artist entrepreneurs, and arranged to sell it through a well known mail order airbrush supply place in Florida. If I recall, my wholesale price the store paid me was $20 each, and they charged $40 for them (note that the manual described how to use that store's own private brand of paint). They'd occasionally order a batch, and I'd print and assemble them, and ship them out.
> 
> ...


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## rwells179 (Sep 22, 2011)

At first I only wanted to go the traditional route.  I bought that big book full of agents and publishers to contact, only to realize most of them said no unsolicited queries/manuscripts.  After hunting around online, I began reading the numerous horror stories of rejection letters, but also saw many success stories of Indie authors.  That pretty much did it for me.  I felt it was pretty much inevitable to get rejection letters and didn't want to have to put up with it with only a slight chance of ever actually getting published.  So I made my book available for sale on the Nook, Kindle, and smashwords.  It hasn't been easy, what with formatting and trying to find a market for my book, but it has been satisfying.  I have made a few sales and am happy knowing that at least some people are reading what I wrote and hopefully my numbers will continue onwards and upwards!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

rwells179 said:


> At first I only wanted to go the traditional route. I bought that big book full of agents and publishers to contact, only to realize most of them said no unsolicited queries/manuscripts. After hunting around online, I began reading the numerous horror stories of rejection letters, but also saw many success stories of Indie authors. That pretty much did it for me. I felt it was pretty much inevitable to get rejection letters and didn't want to have to put up with it with only a slight chance of ever actually getting published. So I made my book available for sale on the Nook, Kindle, and smashwords. It hasn't been easy, what with formatting and trying to find a market for my book, but it has been satisfying. I have made a few sales and am happy knowing that at least some people are reading what I wrote and hopefully my numbers will continue onwards and upwards!


The traditional route is difficult to break through, and for finding an agent, there are some good sites online (QueryTracker and Agentquery are two good ones). But with our current economy and the struggling adaptations that the traditional publishers are having to make, breaking in is very difficult. Borders' collapse also plays its role, too. While I may have mentioned this in an earlier post, I will repeat it. An agent once told me over the phone when I first began seeking an agent, "Everyone today has a computer, and everyone "thinks" they have a novel to write. But not everyone can write effectively, and we (agents) have huge slush piles to sort through." And most agents are looking for any reason to reject a manuscript in order to get to the next one.

Good luck with your novel!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

rwells179 said:


> At first I only wanted to go the traditional route. I bought that big book full of agents and publishers to contact, only to realize most of them said no unsolicited queries/manuscripts. After hunting around online, I began reading the numerous horror stories of rejection letters, but also saw many success stories of Indie authors. That pretty much did it for me. I felt it was pretty much inevitable to get rejection letters and didn't want to have to put up with it with only a slight chance of ever actually getting published. So I made my book available for sale on the Nook, Kindle, and smashwords. It hasn't been easy, what with formatting and trying to find a market for my book, but it has been satisfying. I have made a few sales and am happy knowing that at least some people are reading what I wrote and hopefully my numbers will continue onwards and upwards!


It's a great feeling to know others read your work and love it!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I do both. My shorter work is traditionally-published. I was offered a contract for a novel and a novella but through various reasons those works were never published (that's the worst thing, selling something and having the contract fall through).


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> I do both. My shorter work is traditionally-published. I was offered a contract for a novel and a novella but through various reasons those works were never published (that's the worst thing, selling something and having the contract fall through).


That would be depressing.


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## deegarretson (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm going both routes. My first two books were represented by an agent and published by HarperCollins. My agent and I weren't exactly on the same wavelength as to my future career though, so I gave notice on our contract. I'm looking for an agent for my new middle grade sci fi story.

I did query agents with my historical mystery, and two offerered to work with me on revisions. Their revision ideas were very different from each other and very different from my own. With publishing changing so fast, I really wanted to bring the book out myself, knowing it's easier with some genres than others, so I decided not to go with them.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

It's interesting to read all your responses.  I have, within the past two weeks, received query responses from agents I queried over 14 months ago.  Wow, that's a long time to wait, isn't it?


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm way too impatient to go the traditional route. I did query a couple of agents a few years back and got a request for a partial, which I submitted, but she wasn't in the market for my style of writing at that time so I put my writing dream on the back burner until I discovered the wonderful world of self publishing. The thought of having my ms floating around for a year or more, languishing on some editor or agents desk, only to be rejected was too depressing for me to consider, especially when I read the stats for trad published authors. 
I'm getting ready to release my first of nine books in 2012 and I have to say, I'm loving the whole process, writing, editing, promoting and cover design. Hopefully my sales will reflect the hard work. I guess time will tell...


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

I started sending queries to literary agents in 1999 for an early version of _The Witch Awakening_. Amidst the form rejections, a few promising responses, rejections along the line of "we like this, but it falls between genres, and we don't think we can market it." Then I set WA aside and started working on the next one in the series (a manuscript which is now moldering in my basement--my cats like to sleep on it.) After I finished the cat bed book, I thought I would rewrite WA in 2003 because I was so much older and wiser. I rewrote it, then joined a critique group, had several people read it, then rewrote some more. After that, I started querying again in 2005--I got some nice letters back from literary agents and publishers like Luna and Samhain--I love the Luna logo--but no firm bites. I saved the letters I liked and hung them on my wall to goad me into submitting to more places. Then I finished the second book in the series and realized that I was not only trying to sell one book but two now, which changed things a bit. If my work had gotten rejected for the same thing every time, I might have tried rewriting WA again and scraping the second book, but the reasons that people gave me for rejection were all different--one agent loved my dialogue but didn't like my main character, another one liked my "voice," whatever that meant but didn't know how she would market it, another loved my characters but thought I should rewrite my dialogue . . . and the list goes on. I decided then and there that I was never going to rewrite to suit some agent or publisher when none of them seemed to agree on the basics. You know, you hear all these stories about writers like Grisham who had a horrible time breaking into print because he kept getting told that "courtroom dramas won't sell these days" and you realize that publishers and agents don't know any more about the market than we do. We just think they know more.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

I won't be seeking an agent or publisher for my books, for all of the myriad reasons listed earlier in this thread.

When POD and Lightning Source came along, my wife and I started self-publishing non-fiction books with moderate success. I knew fiction would be a different story (so to speak), but by the time I was ready to consider publishing my fiction work, DTP (now KDP) had come along and ebooks were looking like the right answer.

Early in my education on fiction publishing, I ran across two blogs that were polar opposites with regard to their opinion on going traditional: Joe Konrath's Newbie's Guide to Self Publishing, and Magical Words. I've noticed that MW has eased off on their hardcore traditional bias lately, probably because a few of their contributors have been conducting self-pub experiments. Joe, on the other hand, has only become more strident in his stance against going the traditional route.

It was interesting to consider the perspectives, but nothing the pro-traditional folks said convinced me that going that route was worth the pain. A first time author is going to be treated like, well, a first time author: crappy advance, crappy royalty, crappy contract, and crappy (if any) promotion. After wasting at least 18 months of my life waiting for my book to come out, they'd probably pull it from shelves within 6 weeks and remainder it. Then I could fight to revert my rights. 

Uh, no thanks.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

DRMarvello said:


> Joe, on the other hand, has only become more strident in his stance against going the traditional route.


Didn't he signed with one of Amazon's new publishing houses?


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## LizzyFord (Jan 4, 2011)

Yes, I sought agents and publishers for 10+ years.  I rarely - if ever - received a response from either.  And when I did, they were rejections, though I think I had two requests for partials in ten years.  I bought the Writer's Digest, Jeff Herman, and all the other books every year, and spent hours upon hours crafting query letters.  All for nothing. 

I quit writing for awhile because of it, until my hubby told me about KDP and Smashwords last fall.  Both KDP and Smashie seemed too good to be true.  Get my books into the hands of readers without going through an agent or publisher?  Was it really possible?  Was it really that easy?

I read everything I could about epublishing - and did it.  Made me wonder why I ever found waiting 6-12 months for no response (or a rejection letter) acceptable.


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

Cheryl Douglas said:


> I'm way too impatient to go the traditional route. I did query a couple of agents a few years back and got a request for a partial, which I submitted, but she wasn't in the market for my style of writing at that time so I put my writing dream on the back burner until I discovered the wonderful world of self publishing. The thought of having my ms floating around for a year or more, languishing on some editor or agents desk, only to be rejected was too depressing for me to consider, especially when I read the stats for trad published authors.
> I'm getting ready to release my first of nine books in 2012 and I have to say, I'm loving the whole process, writing, editing, promoting and cover design. Hopefully my sales will reflect the hard work. I guess time will tell...


I was impatient too! : ) I did the traditional queries, waited, even sent out five fulls, but the Self-Publishing lure was too great. I love it too~the writing, the editing, the marketing, and cover design. It's the best decision I've ever made.

Love everyone's stories and the sharing going on here.

Best,

KO


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Didn't he signed with one of Amazon's new publishing houses?


Yes! And what's hilarious is that he practically had to apologize for it to his die-hard blog fans. 

He claims that going with Amazon's imprint was a very different experience from going with one of the Big 6. You may recall that Barry Eisler turned down a huge offer ($2 million?) from one of the Big 6, and later ended up signing with an Amazon imprint as well. He also got grief over his decision. But in both cases, the authors got way more control over their books and better royalties than they would have from the Big 6. They basically made a business decision based on what Amazon offered them.

The same with John Locke. After outrageous indie success (over a million books sold on Kindle), he signed up with a big publisher, but with a twist: he sold only the print and distribution rights. He remains the publisher of record and retained all of his e-rights. He's using a big publisher for what they are best at: getting his books into book stores.

That's really the lesson here, folks. Do what works best for your own personal and business goals. That may mean going indie, and it may mean seeking a publisher. There is no "right" answer. The only right answer is the one that is right for you. The cool thing is that you have a choice!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

DRMarvello said:


> That's really the lesson here, folks. Do what works best for your own personal and business goals. That may mean going indie, and it may mean seeking a publisher. There is no "right" answer. The only right answer is the one that is right for you. The cool thing is that you have a choice!


Sound advice, my friend.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Here's an excerpt from a e-Query form rejection I received this past week (I sent the query over a year ago!).  This is why agents are taking so long for a lot of replies.  If nothing else, this is an interesting dilemma:

"Well, it's finally happened: after over thirty years of answering every query letter that has ever come my way, I've been forced to finally acknowledge that a new era is upon us all.  Before the arrival of e-mail submissions, I used to receive perhaps one hundred queries a week.  That was a lot of queries but it wasn't frankly unmanageable.  The Friedrich Agency now receives more than twice that on a daily basis and it's becoming impossible to attend to much of anything else!"


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## soofy (Nov 26, 2011)

I went straight to indie, mainly because I want to be hands on with this book, which I view as a project of mine. I've also been enticed by the growing ebook market and the exciting things that are happening all the time. I also don't want to go through the process of seeking out an agent then sending of manuscripts then hopefully getting an agent then seeking out publishing houses then waiting and waiting and waiting. I would rather put it out there and get as many people to read it as possible, that is my aim at present.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

soofy said:


> I went straight to indie, mainly because I want to be hands on with this book, which I view as a project of mine. I've also been enticed by the growing ebook market and the exciting things that are happening all the time. I also don't want to go through the process of seeking out an agent then sending of manuscripts then hopefully getting an agent then seeking out publishing houses then waiting and waiting and waiting. I would rather put it out there and get as many people to read it as possible, that is my aim at present.


Good luck and lots of sales!


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## Sharon Austin (Oct 13, 2010)

I spent twelve years querying agents and small press publishers. Racked up enough rejection letters to fuel a bonfire. Tried to walk away but couldn't. I made up my mind to work harder. I wrote new stories. Rewrote old stories. Honed my skills. Paid my dues. Did everything I was supposed to do. And then...

I received a truly rotten rejection on a requested full. And that didn't happen until 16 months after I snail-mailed the manuscript to NYC.

One month later, I put my first story on Amazon.


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## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

I tried the traditional route, with and without agents, for my first two books and came really close both times, but two agents tied them up for a total of 4 years, so I decided to go on my own, with no regret. While I was producing and marketing those I was working on another series, which I also shopped around and then found a traditional publisher, after 32 attempts.

So, now I'm doing both, also with no regrets, so far. My publisher charges much more for The Opposite of Dark than I do for Taxed to Death and Fatal Encryption, however, the distribution for the print versions is far better through a traditional publisher than it was with me. For me, the verdict's still out as to which is the better route. But as an unknown writer, I think exploring as many options as possible can't hurt, as long as I read the fine print.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I've queried, had some manuscript requests, made some contacts, etc.  (See how I put a positive spin on rejections and no-responses?)  

I haven't yet produced the right thing on the right day to tempt an agent, but I may send some new projects out to agents from time to time.  

Ideally, I'd love to do both.  I'd love to have a book get bought today, massaged and made over by a team of experts,  and sit proudly in stores in 2 years' time, all while I continue to grow my self-publishing.


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## Dawn McCullough White (Feb 24, 2010)

A couple times in the 1990s, but my heart really wasn't into it.  Within a few months of self-publishing I was contacted by two interested foreign publishers and an agent.  Now I have an agent and my trilogy is being considered in France, Germany, Hungary and two publishers in Italy.

Ah, the irony.

Dawn


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

I've had three very good agents for my three books. Each tried very hard to land a publisher, but no deals came, though there was some interest, including from Hollywood. It took me a year to land my latest agent, who also represents Stieg Larsson. After a year-and-a-half of his submitting my third manuscript with no results, I canceled the contract with him (though he remains my agent; I will hand to him any offers on movie, audio, etc. rights). Reading Joe Konrath and others changed my mind. And it's paid off. All three novels have been Kindle paid genre bestsellers; the first two pretty steadily for a year now. The latest one, for which my agent couldn't get any publisher interest, has been climbing the paid genre bestseller charts. One of my other books hit #333 of all Kindle ebook paid sales this week after over 10,000 people downloaded it within 48 hours during my KDP free promotion; sales after the promotion have been excellent.

I've been featured on NBC's Today Show and in the Washington Post, Christian Science Monitor, Huffington Post and other media in connection with whether I was the true author of a NYT bestseller. Two NYT bestselling authors have asked me to advise them on self-publishing because they're fed up with legacy publishers. 

Sorry, I don't mean to boast here. The point I'm making is that I now have zero interest in legacy publishing -- though if Amazon made me an offer for one of its new imprints, I'd be open-minded. After years of wasting my time with agents and publishers and getting basically nowhere, I've found I don't need them. I'm releasing my fourth novel in 2012 and plan to handle the entire publishing and promotion process myself. I hate middlemen.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Debra Purdy Kong said:


> I tried the traditional route, with and without agents, for my first two books and came really close both times, but two agents tied them up for a total of 4 years, so I decided to go on my own, with no regret.


I had a traditional publisher hold mine for over 3 yrs. That's a long time to hold your breath while not making money. Thanks for sharing!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

After more than a year, I'm still getting email rejections for old queries.  Glad I went Indie!


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## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

I've been gate-keeper pubbed, and also with a smaller digital publishing house. All of those experiences have been positive, thanks to working with some really great people.

I am dipping my toes into indie because, mainly, my schedule SUCKS, and nothing p*sses me off more than letting people down. This way, even though I have a lot more work to do, at least the only ones relying upon me are... me. And my readers. And I like those odds a lot better at this point in my life.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Sharon Austin said:


> I spent twelve years querying agents and small press publishers. Racked up enough rejection letters to fuel a bonfire. Tried to walk away but couldn't. I made up my mind to work harder. I wrote new stories. Rewrote old stories. Honed my skills. Paid my dues. Did everything I was supposed to do. And then...
> 
> I received a truly rotten rejection on a requested full.* And that didn't happen until 16 months after I snail-mailed the manuscript to NYC.*
> 
> One month later, I put my first story on Amazon.


This seems to be the norm with a lot of the rejections. Months of hopeful waiting. Twelve years is a long time. I probably invested that many years aiming for the traditional route, too.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I like doing both


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## Louis Shalako (Apr 13, 2011)

I have about 125 rejections from agents and publishers. None ever gave me criticism or suggestions or any kind of feedback. One publisher sent me three contracts in the mail, but no one had ever heard of them. On studying their website, I concluded it was a vanity publisher. Another publisher with a good reputation asked for a partial on my fifth novel, and then asked if I would consider the possibility of 'Time-Storm' as an e-book.

When I e-mailed them with a question...essentially, "Would you like me to re-submit, or can you just take it off the left front corner of your desk and put it on the right front corner of your desk," (not my exact words, but you get the idea,) about five weeks went by without a response. Nothing personal, but I can't work with people if there is no communication. I was afraid of doing something wrong, and it was a big break when you think about it. But I muffed it pretty good!

Later, another publisher sent me a contract, with no advance, and they wanted all rights in all formats, with no reversion clause, and another clause that stated whenever they came out with a new version, in another language for example, their license was extended...it occured to me that I would never get my book back (The Shape-Shifters) during the course of my lifetime. It was a sneaky little contract and I did not sign it.

I got a rejection last week from the biggest and one of the few publishers I would work with. I don't have an agent, and I can't afford to mail a full manuscript to anyone. End of story.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

I feel for you guys who had to wait years just to get a response.... I would've gone crazy.


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## DidEverythingButThink (Jun 25, 2012)

I have not tried the traditional route because I didn't write my novel to solely make money. If a good offer comes along I may consider it but for now I am happy with going the indie route.


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## writingundertheinfluence (Apr 18, 2012)

Ugh. My story was lame so I deleted it. I cannot believe how boring I can sound when I type in these forums.

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: Thank God I discovered indie publishing or I'd still be unpublished.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

I read obsessively for months before I self-pubbed - Passive Guy, Konrath, Eisler, DWS, Kris Rusch, etc. It was the math that swayed me, and *not* the math on what one can make self-pubbing. 

It was this math:

Average new-author advance for first novel: $5,000
In three installments: $1,666
Less agent commission: $1416.67
Paid over THREE YEARS:  Say what??
After you've spent 1-5 years submitting: No frikken way.


At that point, I asked people like David Farland and Tracy Hickman what they thought I should do. They were unequivocal - self-publish. They both do it themselves, sometimes turning down juicy offers to do so. Both are still trad-pubbed, but it's a book-by-book decision. 

They qualified it as follows.  1) If you're successful self-pubbing, agents and publishers will come to you, and usually faster than if you'd been submitting the old way, and 2) If someone offers you an Amanda Hocking-size deal, take it (after you get the contract reviewed by an IP attorney).

ETA:  I do submit short work to pro markets and contests. My goal with my novels is to get picked up not by the Big Six, but by 47 North, Amazon's SF imprint.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

KaryE said:


> I read obsessively for months before I self-pubbed - Passive Guy, Konrath, Eisler, DWS, Kris Rusch, etc. It was the math that swayed me, and *not* the math on what one can make self-pubbing.


I've never queried an agent. I came to the whole thing differently.

After reading a newspaper article about Amanda Hocking, I got interested in what was going with publishing and started reading in the blogosphere. Once I came to understand how viable self-publishing had become, it began to occur to me that, _Hey, maybe I could write a book_. When traditional publishing was the only option, I never entertained the idea of writing fiction. The whole process of getting published sounded absolutely awful, and I had no desire to go there whatsoever. But indie sounded so much better. In either case, the chances of making it big are minuscule, but there seems to be so much less suffering along the way, if you're an indie.

So there you go: the indie movement turned me into a novelist. Sort of cool. 

On the other hand, it's a little depressing to read back over this thread, which is more than a year old, and see the posts of several writers who haven't published more books and don't seem to be active on KB anymore. Maybe the indie publishing route can beat you down too, over time.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

/derailthread

@ Becca - is that a cruise ship wake in your photo? If so, a cruise now and then is one of my secret vices.  

/endthreadjack


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> I believe with the success of many Indie authors, these "first rights" are being reconsidered. Here's my take on being an Indie and why I finally chose this route.
> 1)Even traditionally published, I'd have to do the majority of publicity myself.
> 2)In the matter of six months to a year, my book might not be on the shelf. Not true with Kindle/Createspace.
> 3)The only book exposure, unless you're someone like King or Koontz, is how you market it. Social networking is key.


I agree on all points. The notion that publishers won't touch your book if you self-publish is a year or two out of date. It's going to be a while before these untruths stop circulating, I would guess. You have a lot of people out there with "30 years of publishing experience" whose expertise is outdated and yet still vociferously stated. One imagines the buggy experts had a lot to say about motorcars when they first made an appearance.

I started with a small traditional press because I was told that this was the way to a "real" career as a writer. I'm one of the lucky ones who didn't waste too much time on that circuitous and often dead-end path. As it turns out (judging from the experiences of quite a few KB'ers), the quickest way to a traditional deal is a successful self-published book. I know of a few who have had traditional offers and turned them down. That's pretty cool.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I agree on all points. The notion that publishers won't touch your book if you self-publish is a year or two out of date. It's going to be a while before these untruths stop circulating, I would guess. You have a lot of people out there with "30 years of publishing experience" whose expertise is outdated and yet still vociferously stated. One imagines the buggy experts had a lot to say about motorcars when they first made an appearance.
> 
> I started with a small traditional press because I was told that this was the way to a "real" career as a writer. I'm one of the lucky ones who didn't waste too much time on that circuitous and often dead-end path. As it turns out (judging from the experiences of quite a few KB'ers), the quickest way to a traditional deal is a successful self-published book. I know of a few who have had traditional offers and turned them down. That's pretty cool.


I also started with small traditional presses. I published several novels that way and to be frank, a miserable experience it was.

I also did the dance with agents and big publishers. Tied up a couple of novels for more than a year before I said [bad word filter] and went indie.

I will never again tie up novels sitting on some publisher's desk and then waiting a year or more after they've bought it for their schedule to fit it in. My choice. My path. Not the one everyone chooses and I'm fine with that.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

KaryE said:


> /derailthread
> 
> @ Becca - is that a cruise ship wake in your photo? If so, a cruise now and then is one of my secret vices.
> 
> /endthreadjack


Um ... well ...

/geekout

I'm afraid it's the wake from a pelagic bird-watching boat.

But we also saw grey whales and a pod of orcas on that trip. That tones down the nerd overload a bit, right? 

/endgeekout


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> Um ... well ...
> 
> /geekout
> 
> ...


Cool! (I'm very pro-geek.) And here I was worried you'd come back and tell me it was the military ship you'd been deployed on for the last 6 years, and I'd be so embarrassed that I'd have to take my Polly Cruise Ship self and hide in the corner.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

KaryE said:


> Cool! (I'm very pro-geek.) And here I was worried you'd come back and tell me it was the military ship you'd been deployed on for the last 6 years, and I'd be so embarrassed that I'd have to take my Polly Cruise Ship self and hide in the corner.


Ha! No chance of that, Kary. I have no record of productive activities with which to embarrass others


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

KaryE said:


> At that point, I asked people like David Farland and Tracy Hickman what they thought I should do. They were unequivocal - self-publish. They both do it themselves, sometimes turning down juicy offers to do so. Both are still trad-pubbed, but it's a book-by-book decision.


Wow, Tracy Hickman is one of my favorite authors. If he says to self-publish, then maybe it's not such a bad idea after all


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

RM Prioleau said:


> Wow, Tracy Hickman is one of my favorite authors. If he says to self-publish, then maybe it's not such a bad idea after all


Tracy was working a series of linked stories set in a fantasy world, and he couldn't sell the anthology. (That's right. Tracy Hickman. Couldn't sell.) They told him there was no audience. So he published the stories one by one through his own website on a subscription basis. If I remember correctly, he said he reached an audience of 30,000. Then he commissioned a private short run of beautiful, specialty hardcover volumes, and readers bought those, too, having already read the stories, because they wanted a souvenir of the experience.

At that point, Tracy took one of the commissioned volumes to one of his publishers in person, and explained how many he'd sold. That's when he got an offer for the book.

I'm fuzzy here, but I believe the title I'm talking about is Eventide (?). He's planning a sequel, and I believe he's doing it the same way - individual stories by subscription directly from his website.

His Batman stuff is still trad-pubbed, and a lot of other stuff, too. As for David Farland (aka Dave Wolverton), his agent wanted to take Nightingale to auction but he said no and launched it himself. It's won an indie book award and seems to be doing well.

ETA: Hoping it's ok to put this link here: http://www.dragonsbard.com/subscriptions/elite-book-subscriptions/

Disclosure: I'm doing a year-long workshop with Tracy (which is how I know this stuff), but I don't get anything for posting this. Intended as helpful info only (as in, to show you what he's doing), and so folks know I'm not talking out of some nether orifice. 

Interesting note: Check out the price for the elite sub to Blackshore. $53, which includes the limited-edition hardcover. So much for 'people won't pay $3 for a short story,' eh? Yes, some won't - but some will.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

KaryE said:


> Tracy was working a series of linked stories set in a fantasy world, and he couldn't sell the anthology. (That's right. Tracy Hickman. Couldn't sell.) They told him there was no audience. So he published the stories one by one through his own website on a subscription basis. If I remember correctly, he said he reached an audience of 30,000. Then he commissioned a private short run of beautiful, specialty hardcover volumes, and readers bought those, too, having already read the stories, because they wanted a souvenir of the experience.
> 
> At that point, Tracy took one of the commissioned volumes to one of his publishers in person, and explained how many he'd sold. That's when he got an offer for the book.
> 
> ...


Wow.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I agree on all points. The notion that publishers won't touch your book if you self-publish is a year or two out of date. It's going to be a while before these untruths stop circulating, I would guess. You have a lot of people out there with "30 years of publishing experience" whose expertise is outdated and yet still vociferously stated. One imagines the buggy experts had a lot to say about motorcars when they first made an appearance.
> 
> I started with a small traditional press because I was told that this was the way to a "real" career as a writer. I'm one of the lucky ones who didn't waste too much time on that circuitous and often dead-end path. As it turns out (judging from the experiences of quite a few KB'ers), the quickest way to a traditional deal is a successful self-published book. I know of a few who have had traditional offers and turned them down. That's pretty cool.


Well stated.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

I was shocked when I went back through all my emails about my submission to Baen and discovered I had waited nearly six years.  Now, who has time for that?  Agents and publishers used to request that authors only submit to one agency at a time.  I'm happy with where my books are today.  My audience is growing.


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## StephenEngland (Nov 2, 2011)

I never bothered with the traditional path to publishing. Never seemed like enough benefits to justify the downsides. Now, if I got a phone call from Simon & Schuster tomorrow, my tune might change--but I would be very uneasy as to how a traditional publisher would want to alter my characters. As it is, I'm earning a living and quite happy with it.


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## Savannah_Page (Feb 16, 2012)

Tested the waters ages ago, as a young teen. No bueno. With the self-pubbing that Amazon (and so many others) have made available, and without much difficulty, I decided to give it a go--100% indie. So far I'm enjoying it! I love trying to see how far I can go, how many books I can crank out, and how many readers I can reach and make life-long readers.  

Trad publishing in the future? Who knows. For now I'm still blown away that I'm able to create books and reach readers. As annoying as slow sales are, if I really step back and think about it, it's amazing that anyone who isn't a friend or family member finds, reads, and even enjoys my book. Baffling still!!


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## Laurie Brown (Jan 14, 2012)

Like a lot of others I tried the traditional route. For about three years agents were interested, not interested, encouraging, insulting. I also got lots of requests for the first so many pages, the full manuscript, etc., and spent lots of time waiting and waiting and waiting. Finally I took matters into my own hands and have been generally happy with the results of self-publishing.

Laurie


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Laurie Brown said:


> Like a lot of others I tried the traditional route. For about three years agents were interested, not interested, encouraging, insulting. I also got lots of requests for the first so many pages, the full manuscript, etc., and spent lots of time waiting and waiting and waiting. Finally I took matters into my own hands and have been generally happy with the results of self-publishing.
> 
> Laurie


Yes. The waiting is the most difficult part. Still get an occasional rejection from e-queries sent out 2 years ago.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

I tried it and bombed miserably for more than half a decade of course.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Had a good agent from 2004-2008. Before Kindle and self-publishing and all this wonderful wacky new ways we've got. Lot of interest in my first novel, especially from Del Rey if remember correctly, but it didn't work out. Huge interest in the original version of The Storm Dragon's Heart but that soured fast due to a change in market forces (an Asian fantasy YA with big push bombed and scared many editors away). That's okay, my revision five years later made it a far better book. 

The slog of agent to publishers coupled with depression I already had but didn't understand wore me down to the point where I couldn't write anything significant for three years. But I learned about depression. Dealt with it well. Moved on. Indie publishing arrived. Started writing again. Now I'm beginning to do well. 

Life is good.

I could not go back to that old way. If the world shifted inexplicably back to that (an impossibility) ... I'd quit writing for anything more than self-amusement and find additional creative outlets.


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## pjmorse (Dec 7, 2012)

Yes, I did, largely because I was told it was what you were supposed to do. I admit I didn't try very many agents, though. I wasn't optimistic because I did my homework first, and I know that it is tough to make it as a writer. I know several people who have released books (fiction and nonfiction), and it's still tough if you have an agent and a contract with a publisher. (Trust me, people -- getting an agent does not guarantee success!)

I received a request for a partial and a request for a full, which were pleasant surprises, but nothing else came from that. Just getting requests for some of my work made me think I was on to something, but I didn't think my book would have mass-market appeal anyway. 

I self-published because I really didn't want all my hard work to stay on my laptop. I made something, and I had to share it.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Sure. I sent out queries, then learned how publishing worked. It was blindingly obvious I wasn't temperamentally suited to it, and it didn't make financial sense. But KDP introduced 70pct royalties at the same time. I am suited for that.


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## pjmorse (Dec 7, 2012)

Heh. I'm suited to that as well.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Had a good agent from 2004-2008. Before Kindle and self-publishing and all this wonderful wacky new ways we've got. Lot of interest in my first novel, especially from Del Rey if remember correctly, but it didn't work out. Huge interest in the original version of The Storm Dragon's Heart but that soured fast due to a change in market forces (an Asian fantasy YA with big push bombed and scared many editors away). That's okay, my revision five years later made it a far better book.
> 
> The slog of agent to publishers coupled with depression I already had but didn't understand wore me down to the point where I couldn't write anything significant for three years. But I learned about depression. Dealt with it well. Moved on. Indie publishing arrived. Started writing again. Now I'm beginning to do well.
> 
> ...


Makes me really grateful that I never tried the traditional route. When I started on this writing thing last year, I came across all these blogs and books advising writers to self-publish (Konrath, Eisler, Gaughran, and others). I quickly became convinced that this was the right way to go. I'm glad I'm starting out now and not five years ago. It seems to have saved me a lot of trouble.

Am really thankful to those who shared their self-publishing stories. Konrath gets a lot of flak--maybe some find him too opinionated and overbearing. But by being open with his experience and sharing his data and opinions, I think he helped a lot of people make the decision to self-publish and avoid the sort of pain and frustration that David describes here.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

It takes a lot of noise to get attention. When I started writing again, I dipped my toes back into the agent thing and all ... I have a lot of traditionally published writer friends and some editor friends. But as soon as I got my toes dipped into the process, with much trepidation and doubts that I should, I read Konrath. Off I went learning everything I could. It was so much relief.


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## David Thayer (Sep 7, 2012)

I had a very good agent in a strong New York agency that fit very well with my genre of crime fiction, thriller. Since going indie six months ago  I feel liberated from the constant waiting...this editor or that house or this imprint. Even with excellent representation and the best of intentions traditional publishing works only for a narrow band of famous writers and no longer works for anyone else. It's really just as simple as that as far as I can tell.


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## Lady TL Jennings (Dec 8, 2011)

I never even considered contacting a publisher before, however now (with 1.5 years of experience of self-publishing and 150000 words later) I am actually toying with the idea of contacting a smaller publishing house for my next novella. (If I dare, that is...)

Why? Because I think my writing has improved and I do not feel so incredibly uncertain anymore. (I am hoping that a publisher could help me find new readers through other marketing channels and I think that it would be a useful experience too...)  

Well, the future will tell...


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## KristenDaRay (Aug 4, 2012)

It's probably sad I didn't even try... but no. I thought about it and I was going to, but I thought this would be better for me.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

Kind of. I joined a site for YA fiction hoping for some feedback from teens in regard to my YA sci fi book. I'd only just started writing it. I gained invaluable feedback.
Then weirdly my story was voted to the top within a month and gained a critique from a Harper Collins senior editor. I was kicking myself that the book was only 15,000 words written at the time. She said she loved it and to keep in touch (but she left HC to write her own books well before I finished that book).

I tried a total of around 4 agents after finishing and had positive feedback but no takers.

I still have that book on my hard drive - too scared to publish it myself because I invested so much time in it that I might have over-edited and made the rest of it a steaming pile of poo.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

I did, and started querying very young (14 years old). It was Harper Collins, I believe, that wrote back telling me I had a flair for writing, and that they wanted to see 2-3 chapters. They were still accepting queries from unagented writers back then.

I never sent those chapters. To this day I'll never understand why, but it probably wouldn't have done any good because I was an awful writer at 14. 

It was only as I got older that I truly appreciated how much of a win that was for me. To receive a letter like that from Harper Collins does a lot for one's confidence. It's stuck with me ever since, and I'm glad I started developing my thick skin from such an early age. The two novels I queried many years later both got some pretty good interest, but never went anywhere. I got some notes from a really big agent who loved one of my books, and I've learned from and implemented them. 

I certainly don't regret going through that process for over a decade, and I wouldn't change that period of my life for anything. I wasn't ready then, but I am now.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I sent a short story to Marion Zimmer Bradley for her magazine in the 1980s. She sent me a handwritten rejection letter which I still have. Later, she used my story as an example in her online encouragement to beginning writers.

Why Did my Story Get Rejected?
Marion Zimmer Bradley
(c) copyright 1997 by Marion Zimmer Bradley

Here is a link. This is the line about my story: "I rejected a story whose major punch was scatological because I personally am offended by bathroom humor." http://www.mzbworks.com/why.htm

I went into teaching and became a claims adjuster. I forgot about writing for twenty years. A few years ago, I began to consider publishing again. I read everywhere that self publishing was the kiss of death, yada yada, so I queried about five agents with my substitute teaching book. Rejections.

It was getting a Kindle and loading up David Gaughran's book, _Let's Get Digital: How To Self-Publish, And Why You Should_, which brought me here to the KB Writer's Cafe and hope. I'm not getting rich, but I am being read! I have so much to say, and now I finally feel like I have an audience.


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

I didn't have such a hard time landing agents -- three total, all good. But no sales. And the waiting game was excrutiating. No more agents, thank you. My books have done well after I self-published. Two more coming up very soon. Should a traditional publisher make an offer, I'd listen, but the offer would have to be very good for me to get interested.


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

I went the route of a small digital press a couple of years ago and got my first novel (contemporary romance) published. This helped validate all the years I'd spent writing and thinking my writing wasn't good enough. Book did well right out of the gate hit the African American 30-day bestseller list on Bookstrand for over a month. Felt amazing. Sales gradually petered out to one a month and eventually one every six months. 

Recently had my contract rights reverted back to me and am now planning to republish it via self publishing. This is not to say I won't go the hybrid publishing route of self publishing the bulk of my future stories and then have the odd novella published with a publisher. Ultimately, I like having different options available to me. But I am absolutely sold on the control that comes with self-publishing. I like setting my own deadlines, guidelines etc.

I personally needed the initial validation of having my work published with a small press since it proved my writing was good enough. It was akin to the infamous Sally Field Oscar speech, "They like me...they really, really like me!"  

But now that I've been there, done that, I can't even fathom submitting to numerous publishers and waiting to hear back. I don't have that kind of time to waste anymore. Not when I have the power in my own hands to publish my own stuff.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

No, I knew that this series would not appeal to major publishers. It breaks too many genre structures.  

I do have trade interest in a few other projects, but I haven't decided about them yet.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

No, I had no interest in going the trad route. I'm way too impatient. I'd been writing, reading, and taking writing courses for years. Once I realized sp was a viable option, I knew it was time to find out whether I had any talent by putting my books out there for readers to decide. That decision changed my life in ways I never could have imagined.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Cheryl Douglas said:


> No, I had no interest in going the trad route. I'm way too impatient. I'd been writing, reading, and taking writing courses for years. Once I realized sp was a viable option, I knew it was time to find out whether I had any talent by putting my books out there for readers to decide. That decision changed my life in ways I never could have imagined.


That's great! Much success to you!


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## Starfire (Jun 25, 2012)

I looked into it, but since the traditional publishers seemed to want me to have a plan for travelling and promoting books, I decided to to go for it on my own (I've been housebound for years; travelling, even going to a local bookstore, isn't something I could do).


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## R. M. Reed (Nov 11, 2009)

I had an agent for a year, the same year that saw several KBers break out into fame and fortune. If I had self-published instead of letting the book languish while the agent couldn't sell it, would I have caught that wave? I'll never know.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

R. M. Reed said:


> I had an agent for a year, the same year that saw several KBers break out into fame and fortune. If I had self-published instead of letting the book languish while the agent couldn't sell it, would I have caught that wave? I'll never know.


That's a great question, but there are other waves, too. Sometimes we have to make waves.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> I sent a short story to Marion Zimmer Bradley for her magazine in the 1980s. She sent me a handwritten rejection letter which I still have. Later, she used my story as an example in her online encouragement to beginning writers.
> 
> Why Did my Story Get Rejected?
> Marion Zimmer Bradley
> ...


I miss Marion. She took the time to make helpful comments on her rejections. I still have mine from her as well. Not only was she a fabulous author, she was a great editor who reached out to the new writers. Much success to you in your writing career.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Wrote a book a couple decades ago. Everyone loved it. Didn't do anything with it because I had no interest in playing the game just to end up being a slave to someone else's way of doing things. Didn't write anything else after that until 2011 when I discovered KDP. My only regret is that I didn't keep writing over all those years.

BTW: Now I have an agent.


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## Christopher Hunter (Apr 11, 2011)

When the publishing houses start paying 50% or better we can talk. Other than that I can do bad all or good all by myself.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I worked with two agents for two years at a very big agency, and both of them dumped me when they failed to sell my books.  I wasted another year looking for a third agent.  I regret very few things in my life, but wasting precious time trying to work with agents before I'd already made a name for myself is one of them.

I'd absolutely work with an agent again, but not until after I'd built up a solid foundation of readers and had generated my own success.  As others have noted, you'd be expected to do all the hard work of developing your career anyway.  Might as well get all the money for the effort you put into that part of it.  Let an agent earn their 15% by getting you the things you can't get on your own: a print-only deal, foreign rights, maybe movie rights, etc.


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## Jill James (May 8, 2011)

I tried for 7 years to get an agent. Was close a couple of times, but nothing. Then indie-publishing hit my radar. I had a friend you was going to try it so I thought I would try too. So glad I did.


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## isabellajones (Mar 2, 2013)

I've worked with agents and traditional publishers on my nonfiction books for over ten years. (I write my erotic fiction under a pseudonym.) My relationship with agents has been good, but dealing with traditional publishers has been a f&cking nightmare, to be frank. I've dealt with everything from non-payment of royalties with one publisher, having to hold my manuscript hostage until Penguin (yes, THAT Penguin) got their attorneys to sign my damn contract and pay me the first two thirds of my advance that were seriously past due, and the varying degrees of disgust I've felt with the lack of marketing and/or publicity support.

My latest agent actually loved my fiction efforts and wanted to represent me, but I just couldn't face dealing with the crap anymore. My whole relationship with nonfiction writing is damaged, thanks in part to the experiences I've gone through with traditional publishing, and I didn't want that for my fiction work. With this next stage of my writing career, it's all about writing what I want and running my business on my terms. We'll see if it works out, but so far, I'm suffering far less stress and frustration being on my own. I call that a big win.


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## ClaireMarie (Feb 23, 2013)

I have several copies of Writer's Market gathering dust on my shelves. I think I started reading them a couple decades ago. Like many writers (I think) I read a ton of stuff in my genre and thought, "I can do that." But when I studied the publishing requirements and read about how long it would take to even get rejected, I simply couldn't face the process. The minutiae was overwhelming.  Eight months ago, I started putting up short stories on Amazon. I did not rise like cream to the top. In March, my sales for this pen name have surpassed the total of my other three pen names by many miles. And it's kind of a 'nah, nah' moment for me. I always felt that publishers (and to a lesser extent agents) did everything in their power to squelch a new writer. Now I look at the Writer's Market sitting there (2005 version is the last one I bought) and just freakin' grin.


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## Alan Simon (Jul 2, 2010)

Off and on since the mid-late 1990s, but my situation is sort of unique. I work with an agent for non-fiction (technology, business) titles but 1) I haven't done any new ones in that market since 2001, and 2) despite my periodic requests, he never wanted to take on any of the fiction projects. I didn't get that until recently - I figured an agent can always at least open a door even with editors and publishers he/she hasn't previously worked with, and in different markets, right? - but I've come to see that most agents prefer to stick exclusively with their particular specialties, and that relationships mean (almost) everything in the agent-publisher ecosystem.

So: dating back to 1996 or so, I periodically would go through a flurry of queries to agents for fiction projects: in the old days by mail using Writer's Market, in the past 6-7 years primarily by e-mail using lists from QueryTracker and other online sites.

Others have pointed this out but since self-publishing has turned into a "farm system" for major publishers, all efforts now go to self-publishing for the past couple years. In the past couple years I've still pinged a couple agents I've heard about who troll self-published titles but no takers so far; I really think in my case mid-20th century period/historical fiction is off the radar of most agents, and it would take about 100,000 sales to catch their attention (I'm about 1/4 of the way there). What's interesting is that one agent e-mailed me a while back in response to query and said that 5,000 sales was the "magic number" to take on a self-published title, and at the time First Christmas of the War was south of that. After I went way past that number I pinged her again, but no response at all. Oh well...

FWIW, success stories like Hugh's, Holly's, and others that have broken the mold have provided a new baseline if I ever should be contacted by an agent who "discovers" my novels and wants to take a chance on the genre.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> I worked with two agents for two years at a very big agency, and both of them dumped me when they failed to sell my books. I wasted another year looking for a third agent. I regret very few things in my life, but wasting precious time trying to work with agents before I'd already made a name for myself is one of them.
> 
> I'd absolutely work with an agent again, but not until after I'd built up a solid foundation of readers and had generated my own success. *As others have noted, you'd be expected to do all the hard work of developing your career anyway.* Might as well get all the money for the effort you put into that part of it. Let an agent earn their 15% by getting you the things you can't get on your own: a print-only deal, foreign rights, maybe movie rights, etc.


Doing the groundwork is essential to make a success in writing novels now. In fact, a few agents have responded in their queries and asked about my following with Twitter, Facebook, etc. Even after or if you sign a contract with an agent, we have to build the audience. Having one ahead of time definitely places an author a step ahead.


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## Jeroen Steenbeeke (Feb 3, 2012)

I've never sought out a traditional agent, and went straight to self-publishing.

I did consider going the traditional route, even going so far as compiling a list of potential agents. That's actually what triggered the self-publishing path. There really aren't that many agents that accept fantasy novels, and at the time, 70% of those that did weren't accepting *any* submissions at the time.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

I started out looking for an agent for Thief about ten years ago and probably solicited forty or so agencies. I'd guess about half of them bothered to send me any answer at all, and I was peeved. I'd gone through all the submission requirements, checked the categories each agent looked at, and even checked writers market. I woul have expected at least a reply to say no.

Unfortunately I did get one yes, still have the letter. I remember being so excited at the time. But then I realised it was a rip off when they wanted a reading fee and also had their own publisher already lined up who wanted to charge me more. After that I sort of gave up. But I kept writing, since I enjoy it, and finally pubbed Thief in 2010. That was an awesome day!

It doesn't sell much, but in the end I don't care. I know it sits in a strange genre. But it's not the point. Just seeing it up there, seeing the sales slowly ticking over, and ocasionally getting a review is good enough. Then of course I started putting out other books and some of them sell a heck of a lot better, and its nice to get those monthly cheques.

Self pubbing has been good to me.

Cheers, Greg.


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## SEAN H. ROBERTSON (Mar 14, 2011)

My first book series was a historical fiction/paranormal teen vampire story. I'd already read about the numerous rejections that Stephanie Meyer received for Twilight, so the traditional route didn't appeal to me. I self-pubbed the series, which is selling very well here and abroad, so I couldn't be happier with my indie decision.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Jeroen Steenbeeke said:


> I've never sought out a traditional agent, and went straight to self-publishing.
> 
> I did consider going the traditional route, even going so far as compiling a list of potential agents. That's actually what triggered the self-publishing path. *There really aren't that many agents that accept fantasy novels, and at the time, 70% of those that did weren't accepting any submissions at the time.*


Finding agents that represent great fantasy are rare, and when you happen upon good ones, they generally have full client lists.


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## rchapman1 (Dec 5, 2012)

I wasn't able to find a publisher for Missing in Egypt but I was so pleased when I discovered Amazon!  I love the control factor but I do find self-promotion and marketing very time consuming and, to be honest, not that easy outside my own area.  My second book "Winston - A Horse's Tale" is ready to publish and I have made a few approaches to publishers.  Not very hopeful though and if nothing happens in the next couple of months I'll self-publish this one too.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

rchapman1 said:


> I wasn't able to find a publisher for Missing in Egypt but I was so pleased when I discovered Amazon! I love the control factor but I do find self-promotion and marketing very time consuming and, to be honest, not that easy outside my own area. My second book "Winston - A Horse's Tale" is ready to publish and I have made a few approaches to publishers. Not very hopeful though and if nothing happens in the next couple of months I'll self-publish this one too.


Even if you received a contract from a small publisher, the self-promotion and marketing still is on our end. Only the "elite" contracted writers get the marketing from their publishers. That's why I'm glad to be building an audience for myself. In some ways, it makes the experience more personal and get to know some of your audience via Kboards, Twitter, and FB.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Rykymus said:


> Wrote a book a couple decades ago. Everyone loved it. Didn't do anything with it because I had no interest in playing the game just to end up being a slave to someone else's way of doing things. Didn't write anything else after that until 2011 when I discovered KDP. My only regret is that I didn't keep writing over all those years.
> 
> *BTW: Now I have an agent.*


Has an agent helped?


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

I thought about seeking trad pub until I started reading Konrath and Eisler. And then the rest of you self-pubs. 

I came to the realization that if a pub offered me a contract, I still wouldn't take it. If I'm good enough to be traditionally published, then I can damn sure make it on my own. Not that trad pubs have the best prediction rates nor do they always know what is 'good' (which is subjective opinion). 

Since I started publishing, I have never once had a thought that I might try to seek out traditional publishing. I'll either make it on my own or I won't and will go back to the tech industry.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

I only sent The Blemished to 4 agents before I self-published. I just felt time wasn't on my side with dystopia. Turns out I made the right call!

Actually, I'm still not writing off going trade and The Blemished is still officially in consideration as part of the Harper Voyager digital open submission call. Who knows what the future could bring, but I will say that I'm very pleased with my self-publishing experience so far.


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## Austin_Briggs (Aug 21, 2011)

Never even tried going traditional route. I wanted to at first; but every editor I worked with was asking me: will you self-pub or query agents?

In the beginning, I was under impression that "self-pubbing" was a dirty business done by losers peddling crap (well, it's mostly true, to be fair) - I had accidentally bought some self-pubbed books and could really not understand who'd publish that rubbish. Oh, I realized, they did it themselves, _pobrecitos_.

Then I discovered Konrath's blog, and plunged ahead. Sold 1,000 copies in my first year and decided to pull the book and stop writing. Didn't write for 1 full year. Finally, I discovered the island of quality and inspiration which is Kindle Boards.

Now I'm writing 4K-5K words per evening, working with several brilliant editors from these Boards, with talented cover designers also from here, and having a blast.

No desire whatsoever to go traditional. I love the raw, emotional feeling of doing it myself and learning from my own mistakes and triumphs.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Never had any desire. I've always loved writing, but also have total creative control. Then I heard about the indie revolution last year and jumped on board!


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## MitchHogan (May 17, 2013)

I'm a late convert to self publishing. It was only in April this year I came across information on how times had changed, and read Let's Get Digital. I had submitted my book A Crucible of Souls to over 30 agents and publishers and been rejected by them all. When one agent was interested I started looking for information on agent and publishing contracts to prepare myself, which led me to KKRusche's blog and DWSmiths's, saw how bad contracts were and the rest is history.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

I spent 16-17 years writing for the ultimate goal of querying agents and getting traditional publishing contracts. Then everything changed on a dime about 8-9 months ago when I started reading blogs by indie authors on the pros/cons of tradpub vs indie, saw how little trad authors are getting out of eBooks, and began reading ebooks such as "Self-Publishing Attack" by James Scott Bell, and "Let's Get Digital" by David G.

When Bell said something like - do you want your books published POSTHUMOUSLY? That did it for me LOL. When I realized that tradpub no longer has the monopoly on publishing, the entrepreneurial side of me knew that it's time I blaze my own path.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

AngryGames said:


> I thought about seeking trad pub until I started reading Konrath and Eisler. And then the rest of you self-pubs.
> 
> I came to the realization that if a pub offered me a contract, I still wouldn't take it. If I'm good enough to be traditionally published, then I can d*mn sure make it on my own. Not that trad pubs have the best prediction rates nor do they always know what is 'good' (which is subjective opinion).
> 
> Since I started publishing, I have never once had a thought that I might try to seek out traditional publishing. I'll either make it on my own or I won't and will go back to the tech industry.


Even if a traditional publisher picks you up, you still have to sell yourself and your books. Ultimately, we have to rally the call to the world of readers to get attention (in a good way, that is). Thanks for sharing.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Nope. I wrote a lot, but was too nervous to query (writing query letters seemed far too hard!), then when I heard publishers still expected authors to do the bulk of the marketing, and indie publishing was taking off, I couldn't see the point.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Rinelle Grey said:


> Nope. I wrote a lot, but was too nervous to query (writing query letters seemed far too hard!), then when I heard publishers still expected authors to do the bulk of the marketing, and indie publishing was taking off, I couldn't see the point.


Query letters are difficult sometimes. There's an art to it.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Even after nearly three years, I *finally* receive a rejection? Wow . . . that's a record.


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## mariehallwrites (Mar 14, 2013)

I got an agent before I went Indie. Sold squat. I'm now selling enough on my own to make me seriously consider why I even continue to publish with NY. I'm still straddling the fence and doing both but I'm thinking next year I might make a choice to drop one and it won't be Indie.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

mariehallwrites said:


> I got an agent before I went Indie. Sold squat. I'm now selling enough on my own to make me seriously consider why I even continue to publish with NY. I'm still straddling the fence and doing both but I'm thinking next year I might make a choice to drop one and it won't be Indie.


Wow, congrats!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Since someone asked . . .


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## Sarah Stimson (Oct 9, 2013)

I sent my (unfinished) novel to a trad publisher once, seven years ago and got a standard "no" response.  I then put it in a drawer and never looked at it again (I also got married, had a baby, started a business - life got a bit busy).

I dug it out again the other week, when I'd finished my non-fic book, and am now in the process of finishing it with the plan to self pub, and also plan to write three others in that series.


For my non-fic book, self publishing has come a long way since I first started writing in 2007 and I didn't even look at the possibility of a trad publisher. Two people recommended I approach the same one they'd been published by and offered to make an introduction but I decided not to.  

When I announced the book had been written and will be published in Dec, several people asked me who it was published by.  None of them batted an eyelid when I said I'm publishing myself (at least not to my face).


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

I didn't go the trad route at all. I was going to, then I went to a seminar with a lady who was trad pubbed and advised against it. She really pushed the self publishing. Before I saw her, I thought that self publishing was for losers. She showed me that it wasn't. And, after hearing the horror stories on this board, I am so glad that I went this route. Patience has never been one of my virtues, and I don't think that I would have the patience for traditional publishing. It would be so soul destroying, and would probably sap my will to write.

I actually don't know why anybody would do the trad pub thing, seeing how rudely they treat the writers, according to those who have gone that route. Call me crazy, but waiting years to hear if your novel is going to be published or not is not my cup of tea.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

anniejocoby said:


> I didn't go the trad route at all. I was going to, then I went to a seminar with a lady who was trad pubbed and advised against it. She really pushed the self publishing. Before I saw her, I thought that self publishing was for losers. She showed me that it wasn't. And, after hearing the horror stories on this board, I am so glad that I went this route. Patience has never been one of my virtues, and I don't think that I would have the patience for traditional publishing. It would be so soul destroying, and would probably sap my will to write.
> 
> I actually don't know why anybody would do the trad pub thing, seeing how rudely they treat the writers, according to those who have gone that route. Call me crazy, but waiting years to hear if your novel is going to be published or not is not my cup of tea.


I met an editor from a major publisher a couple weeks ago. She said that it is getting more common for authors to pursue both routes, which I thought was interesting for her to say.


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## Bookside Manner (Aug 24, 2013)

I tried the trad route for years and had no success. I never seemed to master the art of a good query, and even had one agent who requested a partial lose my manuscript in an office move.    At one point I decided I could spend months querying, getting rejected, tinkering with the query some more, and so on, or I could spend that time trying out self-publishing.

I started out with my contemporary novel, which I didn't plan to trad publish anyway as I have no other ideas in that genre (I like to genre-hop, which is another reason to go indie). I didn't sell a lot my first year but the reviews and response were so encouraging that I decided to self-publish my other books as well. And last year I finally started to get some decent sales, so the only reason to ever seek out an agent is if some Hollywood bigwig comes across one of my books and wants to option it (hey, a girl can dream).


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Kelly Cozy said:


> I tried the trad route for years and had no success. I never seemed to master the art of a good query, and even had one agent who requested a partial lose my manuscript in an office move.  At one point I decided I could spend months querying, getting rejected, tinkering with the query some more, and so on, or I could spend that time trying out self-publishing.
> 
> I started out with my contemporary novel, which I didn't plan to trad publish anyway as I have no other ideas in that genre (*I like to genre-hop, which is another reason to go indie*). I didn't sell a lot my first year but the reviews and response were so encouraging that I decided to self-publish my other books as well. And last year I finally started to get some decent sales, so the only reason to ever seek out an agent is *if some Hollywood bigwig comes across one of my books* and wants to option it (hey, a girl can dream).


Yes, genre-hopping is a good reason for self-publishing, so you don't get boxed into a particular genre.


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## ClaireMarie (Feb 23, 2013)

Never even tried. I bought many copies of Writer's Digest over the years, though. I would read through all the submission guidelines and get so discouraged it depressed the heck out of me. There were things I didn't understand (like 'hard returns'--but I'm a relative dunce) and there seemed to be no end to the finickiness of it all. Two years ago, I got a Kindle as a gift and I started to write. I'm supporting myself now (albeit very, very frugally) but 2014 is going to be my year!


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## liagarret (Oct 21, 2013)

I've got an agent for my children's fiction and have published kidlit traditionally(under a different name), but I can't imagine ever seeking traditional publishers for my adult fiction.


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## Harriet Schultz (Jan 3, 2012)

The belief that I had to go that route led to the most frustrating two years of my life. My query brought about a dozen agent requests for the partial and many of those then asked for the full.  Although my manuscript was praised by several well-respected agents, there was always the inevitable "but." Tear-your-hair-out frustrating, but their responses convinced me that what I'd written wasn't complete garbage. 

That was five or six years ago and my only knowledge of self-publishing was through vanity presses and thousands of books in someone's garage. I had no interest in going that route.

When I learned about KDP, I jumped at the chance to finally get my work out there and figured readers would be the ultimate judge, not agents. Although I'm not one of the phenoms on this board, I've sold more than 25,000 copies of that first book and have great reviews (more than 80 with a 4.5 average on Amazon.com). I've since published a sequel and I'm halfway through the third, and final, book of the series. 

An agent might still be useful for foreign or film or audiobook rights, but that's another story.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Yes, but I started self pub back in 2000 before kindle and didn't really get anywhere until KDP. Before that I was just writing and submitting and collecting automatic rejections. I know most were automatic, because they couldn't even get the title or my name right sometimes  It was very discourteous I thought to pretend they had read my stuff. They could have just said not interested in looking at it and I would have been happier.


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## HStokes (Feb 12, 2013)

Nope, didn't even try.  Having a novel that's close to 200k words isn't appealing to agents and I was NOT going to cut my work down to suit some arbitrary rule set by accountants.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

HStokes said:


> Nope, didn't even try. Having a novel that's close to 200k words isn't appealing to agents and I was NOT going to cut my work down to suit some arbitrary rule set by accountants.


That is a large word count and definitely makes it more difficult to find an agent.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

I did back in 2007 and landed both a contact and an agent (in that order). Since I started self-publishing, I don't even try. I still have an agent but she doesn't shop anything I write now.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

romanceauthor said:


> I did back in 2007 and landed both a contact and an agent (in that order). Since I started self-publishing, I don't even try. I still have an agent but she doesn't shop anything I write now.


Just curious. If you still have an agent, what does she/he do for you?


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

I've been researching publishing options for two years. While it would be cool to get trad pubbed, I discovered:

The blurb you slave over to hook an agent also works to hook Amazon readers.

If your writing isn't good enough to sell to trad pub, it won't sell in indie pub, but irate readers will tell you faster.

Publishers don't market.

Publishers often don't edit. (There are horror stories...)

Publishers are slow. If you're writing something time sensitive for the market, it's too slow.

If you can get good editing and good cover art, you're just as good off as if you'd gotten trad pubbed, only you get higher royalties.


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## ConnerKressley (Feb 23, 2014)

I did try with traditional agents before I decided to go with self publishing. I got some interest early on, but all my leads ended with an 'I like this, but...'

It was all very disheartening and, when I started digging onto what it meant to be self published, I really liked what I found. The way I saw it,traditional publishing is like a lottery ticket in some ways, and self publishing is like a savings account. One offers huge success sort of rapidly while the other offers a slow build. Of course, neither is guaranteed, but I enjoy the idea of captaining my own ship


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Kessie Carroll said:


> I've been researching publishing options for two years. While it would be cool to get trad pubbed, I discovered:
> 
> The blurb you slave over to hook an agent also works to hook Amazon readers.
> 
> ...


All great points!!!


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm going straight to self-publishing.

I see no compelling reason to try with trad pubs.


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## Rachel Aukes (Oct 13, 2013)

I cut my teeth on traditional publishing. I signed two series, each with a different house. I learned a ton about what to do--and what not to do--in the publishing process, which I've been able to use in self-publishing. 

Now that I'm self-publishing, I no longer pursue traditional publishing. I find self-publishing far more rewarding. But I wouldn't rule out traditional publishing if it could do better than I could manage on a particular format or country.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

rachelaukes said:


> I cut my teeth on traditional publishing. I signed two series, each with a different house. I learned a ton about what to do--and what not to do--in the publishing process, which I've been able to use in self-publishing.
> 
> Now that I'm self-publishing, I no longer pursue traditional publishing. I find self-publishing far more rewarding. But I wouldn't rule out traditional publishing if it could do better than I could manage on a particular format or country.





S. Elliot Brandis said:


> I'm going straight to self-publishing.
> 
> I see no compelling reason to try with trad pubs.


For authors/readers of series, self-publishing is a great luxury. Most traditional publishers take up to 18 months before the book is available to buy. However, due to this constraint, some publishers are actually speeding up that process.


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## KCHawkings (Jul 20, 2011)

I have never queried, but I probably will sometime this year with a book I've been working on for some time. I firmly believe that trade and self are both valid paths, and I feel different books vary in suitability for different publishing routes.


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## Michelle Hughes (Dec 12, 2011)

I started Indie and had/have no desire to go traditional.  Waiting on a person to "approve" my book instead of sharing it with people that I know will love it just doesn't make sense to me.  Traditional publishers don't know anymore than we do about what will sell.  I don't write for fame or fortune, so in my little world where I've been lucky enough to find fans, I'm happy.  I got lucky and turned this into a career but even if I hadn't I'd still be writing for my own pleasure.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

KCHawkings said:


> I have never queried, but I probably will sometime this year with a book I've been working on for some time. I firmly believe that trade and self are both valid paths, and I feel different books vary in suitability for different publishing routes.


I met with a publisher at Chattacon in January, and she stated that a lot of authors are going both routes. You never know.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm not even considering trad publishing. I just can't see any reason to. So much effort for so little chance of a positive experience, and I hate all the constraints. Indie is freedom.


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## J. R. Blaisy (Feb 4, 2014)

I sent the first three chapters to nine top UK agents and received six replies, all rejections. Discouraged, I looked into self-publishing, and went ahead via KDP and CreateSpace. Since then I haven't looked back and haven't gone forward either.


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## mphicks (Jan 29, 2014)

I did attempt to go the trad route before hitting the publish button myself. 

In 2011, I had finished CONVERGENCE and started editing it and getting it polished in time for the open submission period with Harper Voyager in Oct. 2012. After not hearing a peep from them, I threw my hat in the ring for the Amazon Breakthrough Novel Award 2013 and made it up to the quarter-finals and got a great Publisher's Weekly review. I spent an awful lot of 2013 using that PW blurb, and the pitch and excerpt that had carried me so far in the ABNA to try to land an agent. I only received one authentic rejection, one form letter rejection, and was entirely ignored by about 70 others. Just finding a list of agents who would look at sci-fi was a disheartening experience...

By the end of 2013, I learned that my manuscript was one of the last three hundred manuscripts (out of ~4500) still under consideration by Harper Voyager and that everyone should have a decision by the end of this past January. Well, January came and went, then most of February...

Throughout all of this, knowing I had a solid novel on hand and hell-bound to get it out there, I was working with an editing company (Red Adept) and in February hired Streetlight Graphics to do the cover art and formatting. Self-publishing was an idea that had been lurking in my head, but it took me 3 years of wasted time to be convinced to go for it. With Harper Voyager still silent (to this day!), I went all-in and self-published. It's still too early to say if this has been a good idea or not, but I can tell you it sold far more copies over the last two week than it did sitting on my hard drive waiting on a response from tradition publishing. More importantly, I'm happy with the choice I (finally...) made and am glad to have the book out there. I'm working the follow-up now and will be releasing it directly once ready.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

I'm actually waiting to hear back from a number of agents who have requested the full manuscript and I continue to get requests. I also recently finished an exclusive revision for one of the top 2 or 3 agents in my genre - I didn't really expect her to end up going with me because she rarely takes on anyone new and works alone (due to a certain, ahem, huge book and movie franchise), but it made my manuscript stronger and I was grateful for the opportunity. 

I had an offer of representation that I turned down - it was a big agency, very big in the mystery genre, but they are just starting to dip their toes in YA without much to show for it. The door is still open there for me if I choose.

So I find it hard to pull the trigger - or push the button at Amazon - because I've received a lot of interest from the traditional world. At the same time, the rejection from the big agent kind of broke my heart - but the reasons didn't have a lot to do with purely my ability so I try to keep it in perspective.

If I'm honest, the trad YA market has kind of moved on from what I write I think. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of readers still reading it.

I could go back to the first agent, but then I get on the boards and think that perhaps I dodged a bullet there.

So I find myself in the uncomfortable position of straddling the fence - not in a hybrid author sort of way, which is my dream - but in a completely unable to make a decision what to do next way! 

My head tells me indie publishing is the best thing for me and my book. My heart is still fearful!   But then, all my life I have  taken the road less travelled - it made all the difference then and I suppose it will still......


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Heather Lori Harding said:


> I'm actually waiting to hear back from a number of agents who have requested the full manuscript and I continue to get requests. I also recently finished an exclusive revision for one of the top 2 or 3 agents in my genre - I didn't really expect her to end up going with me because she rarely takes on anyone new and works alone (due to a certain, ahem, huge book and movie franchise), but it made my manuscript stronger and I was grateful for the opportunity.
> 
> I had an offer of representation that I turned down - it was a big agency, very big in the mystery genre, but they are just starting to dip their toes in YA without much to show for it. The door is still open there for me if I choose.
> 
> ...


Wow. Thanks for sharing. Very interesting dilemma. Good luck in whichever direction you take!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Like most people, my decision was easy, because nobody wanted me! They still don't, which i find sort of amusing. (At least, I assume they don't. They haven't come knocking, let's just say.)

Except Montlake, and they're the one publisher I WOULD be very interested in going with. They asked me to submit a series, and I'm planning to do that, after I finish the book I'm working on now. I'm excited about that possibility since I see terrific cross-promo potential to my indie books, and they seem to do a whole lot for their authors. Developmental editing, and wow, the marketing push!

It seems to me that Amazon uses indies as sort of a "farm team," looks at who sells consistently, reads their books, sees whom they'd like to publish and approaches those people. Which is exactly what I'd been asking my husband for months. "Why the HECK do agents still go through the slush pile, instead of looking at up-and-coming indies in their preferred genre on the Amazon charts and picking out people who've proved they can sell books? Wouldn't that be a whole, whole lot more efficient?"

Which shows you why Amazon is kicking butt. Because they are able to change with changing times. Because they are smarter, bottom line. And that's the kind of publisher I want to be with--somebody with MORE marketing know-how than me, not less.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I queried my top 22 agents that said they accept submissions. (The group I have now representing my angel series does not accept submissions.)

Two wanted the full manuscript. One agreed to represent me and said they were showing my work around to publishers. I waited seven months then phoned to see how it was going. Found out the agent hadn't shown it to anyone including the one who had put out a call for my type of work as the agent was too busy "putting out fires" (agents words, not mine) on existing contracts. I received a sincere apology.



I self published it shortly after, and the second book seven weeks after the first.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

During the two years that it took for me to learn how to write a novel, I also researched publishing options. My ms was ready to go for three weeks before I find the courage to hit the publish button on Amazon this week. 

I know the big pubs wouldn't want me. And the small presses that I'm interested all ask for my social media profile and marketing plan (which I have none) as part of their submittal process. If I'm going to have to do all this marketing for the small press, I might as well do it for myself.  And most small presses don't even do much editing anyway. One of them even specifically asked writers to hire someone to "clean up" their ms first. If I have to pay for editing myself, what do I need a small press for?

As for editing, I've already ran it through two beta groups and the copy editor only charged a few hundred dollars for copy editing. I figured it would be in the black in a year or two. But most important of all, I wouldn't have to fight with a small pub to get the rights to my novel back some day in the future.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Over a year ago, I began listening to the Self Publishing Podcast. I would download episodes and listen to them while I was at work. On a daily basis, I would whine to myself that I would rather be at home writing than pouring my creative, emotional, and physical energy into a job that I hated. Last summer, I got an opportunity to write full-time, and I took it.

Following the SPP advice, I churned out a 40,000 word novella within three weeks. I managed to have it beta read, edited, and published in another two weeks. I think that I sold over 100 (maybe 200) copies in the first month. I had planned to write a series but then my mind turned to another story. I began hanging out on a writer's website and that place had a very pro-trade publishing slant. I started reading threads about querying agents, participating in contests and twitter events, and signing publishing contracts. Their attitude was that you weren't really an author unless you received validation from an agent then publisher. So I switched gears and focused on querying agents. I lost months of time pursuing this route; I should have finished my series and pressed forward on my own. I might not have had to go back into full time employment if I had.

All of my stories touch on racism, racialism, stigma, and identity policing. I received feedback from those in the publishing industry that I couldn't use certain words as it would turn off the mainstream audience. I'm not really writing for the mainstream; I think there are many authors who are already doing that. I'm targeting specific demographics who are interested in reading stories that touch on the issues which impact our communities. I know other Black authors who wrote stories featuring Black characters, and they were told by agents and publishers that their story would be more marketable if the characters were White instead of Black. Per their cost/benefit analysis, I guess readers don't want to read stories with Black main characters, huh?

Anyway, I just realize that I have more freedom to pursue the topics that I want as long as I control the acquisition, editing, and marketing processes.


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## ronnierayjenkins (Mar 30, 2014)

Actually after many years of writing, and submitting works, once I began to publish on KDP...things began to happen. I signed with a great literary agent/entertainment attorney a few weeks ago. I still continue to do my own thing though as the slow wheels of publishing turn. Exposure is key, and it can lead to outlets that you wouldn't think possible. So, keep writing, polish, and keep going.


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## Sydney M. Cooper (Mar 30, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> All of my stories touch on racism, racialism, stigma, and identity policing. I received feedback from those in the publishing industry that I couldn't use certain words as it would turn off the mainstream audience. I'm not really writing for the mainstream; I think there are many authors who are already doing that. I'm targeting specific demographics who are interested in reading stories that touch on the issues which impact our communities. I know other Black authors who wrote stories featuring Black characters, and they were told by agents and publishers that their story would be more marketable if the characters were White instead of Black. Per their cost/benefit analysis, I guess readers don't want to read stories with Black main characters, huh?
> 
> Anyway, I just realize that I have more freedom to pursue the topics that I want as long as I control the acquisition, editing, and marketing processes.


I had similar issues with the publishing world, though I deal more with sexism, sexuality and religion. I submitted my first novel to a couple of publishers (both large and smaller ones), and was rejected due to concerns about the provocative nature of the topics in my work. It makes sense I suppose, especially as a new author - why would they take a chance on publishing a controversial novel written by an unknown? I probably could have made changes and kept submitting, but I didn't want to change my subject matter. I also realized that I didn't want publisher-imposed deadlines. I do pretty well working by my own deadlines, and my day job is very inflexible. Some months I simply can't write at all, or if I do, it's on scraps of paper during lunch breaks.

I haven't seen amazing success or anything, but I'm happy with indie publishing for now. I'm producing work that says what I want it to say, and I'm generally able to meet my own expectations... most of the time. ;-)


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Wren Emerson said:


> I've never submitted my work to an agent and I don't intend to. It's my personal feeling that agents are obsolete. If I'm ever approached for a publishing deal based on my indie success and the money seems right I'll hire an IP lawyer to handle the contract negotiations for me. I don't see the need to involve an agent (and their percentage) in any of it.
> 
> Nothing against agents, in general. I don't think they are all unethical crooks or anything. They just seem redundant to me in the new landscape of publishing.


Yes, the publishing world has drastically changed in the past 5-7 years. I've met some great agents over the years, but since my books tend to be cross-genre, it has been difficult finding one that represents books like this.

Best to you in your writing career!


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## Marie Long (Jan 11, 2014)

I'd like to try my hand at being a hybrid author, having my eggs in many baskets, so to speak. I'll see where the query process goes with my NA book. If I don't get any bites, then I will self-publish, but at least I can say I tried.


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

I just received my final two rejections yesterday. Ouch, both in one day. It's decided me to never query again. Apparently, you have to make it on your own for an agent to take notice. I'll just stick to churning out content on my own--it's less depressing than rejections.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

I published independently first. I did send out a query letter once just to test those waters. I was rejected pretty quick. I'd rather do things independently anyway. I don't have tons of free time. What little time I do have often isn't spent writing. I consider this more of a hobby than a job. I also take some pride in doing the formatting, cover design, and everything else from concept to publication without any constraints or deadlines.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

Nope, didn't even bother sending out a single query. I'll probably get rejected because I have a non-Caucasian protag in my murder mystery.

Interestingly, another writer buddy and I were both on the same timeline with our books (same genre too). She signed with an agent before I finished with my beta reads. But I'm already getting sales and she's still making edits.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Marie Long said:


> I'd like to try my hand at being a hybrid author, having my eggs in many baskets, so to speak. I'll see where the query process goes with my NA book. If I don't get any bites, then I will self-publish, but at least I can say I tried.


Good luck! You never know if you don't try.


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## Marie Long (Jan 11, 2014)

CEMartin2 said:


> I just received my final two rejections yesterday. Ouch, both in one day. It's decided me to never query again. Apparently, you have to make it on your own for an agent to take notice. I'll just stick to churning out content on my own--it's less depressing than rejections.


How many rejections did you get before you made this final decision? Were you querying a bunch of agents simultaneously? How many months/years were you querying before you decided to stop now?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Marie Long said:


> How many rejections did you get before you made this final decision? Were you querying a bunch of agents simultaneously? How many months/years were you querying before you decided to stop now?


If you want an answer from somebody else--for me it was about five months, during which I queried 38 agents and publishers about two books. Results: one agent and one publisher asked for a full, two agents for a partial, all said no. I decided on self-publishing after one agent told me "New Zealand rugby" was basically too weird, and another's assistant said that her boss hadn't liked my characters OR my story (that was book 2), and neither had the assistant. And I sucked.

(I made that last part up. But that was the gist.)

I think you get to that point where you think, heck with this, I'll give it a go myself. What's the worst that could happen?


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

I had an agent - a big well-known one that people went "ooh" when I name-dropped. Nothing much happened. She raved about my book but couldn't produce figures or comments about where she'd sent it.

Time passed. I wrote more, had a baby, relocated across the country. Sent her something else. Got a standard rejection.

When I finally realised she'd forgotten I was even a client (despite my letter with the sub), I understood that_ "any agent is better than no agent"_ is not true. So I went indie.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

DebBennett said:


> I had an agent - a big well-known one that people went "ooh" when I name-dropped. Nothing much happened. She raved about my book but couldn't produce figures or comments about where she'd sent it.
> 
> Time passed. I wrote more, had a baby, relocated across the country. Sent her something else. Got a standard rejection.
> 
> When I finally realised she'd forgotten I was even a client (despite my letter with the sub), I understood that_ "any agent is better than no agent"_ is not true. So I went indie.


Wow . . . that had to be disappointing. Hope the Indie route is working well for you. Thanks for sharing!


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> I miss Marion. She took the time to make helpful comments on her rejections. I still have mine from her as well. Not only was she a fabulous author, she was a great editor who reached out to the new writers. Much success to you in your writing career.


Thanks. I miss Marion, too. Mostly her fiction!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Thanks. I miss Marion, too. Mostly her fiction!


Yes!


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## Magda Alexander (Aug 13, 2011)

I only sent out one query, and that was because I needed the rejection to make pro at RWA. But I never intended to traditionally publish. Never could wrap my head around the money (as in lack thereof) and how flipping long it took them to publish a book (18 months, really?). So I self published and am loving every day of it.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Update on my post above: I'm at the point where I need an agent (for trad deal and foreign rights etc.) I queried both the agents above who rejected me. Both got right back to me, both are interested, and I'm pretty sure I'll be signing with one shortly as we seem like a good fit. 

What a difference some sales make!


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

I sent out 2 rounds of queries on my fantasy series in the early/mid-2000s, plus about a dozen queries in the early 90s. When I got back to working on my big fiction projects a couple of years ago, self-publishing seemed like more of a viable option, so here I am.


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## drymartini (May 6, 2014)

Yes, but it was several years ago before indie/self-pub was big. This time around I knew from researching and watching the market that self-publishing would be my first choice.


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## Scott Pixello (May 4, 2013)

Had seven titles published with traditional publishers under my own name (closely-guarded secret) but those days are well and truly over. The idea of handing over 90% of the cost of a book to people who often do precisely nothing for you- nope, been there, done that. The future is indie- in music, in publishing, in life.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> Update on my post above: I'm at the point where I need an agent (for trad deal and foreign rights etc.) I queried both the agents above who rejected me. Both got right back to me, both are interested, and I'm pretty sure I'll be signing with one shortly as we seem like a good fit.
> 
> What a difference some sales make!


Good luck. Most agents overseas tend to have a policy that they want US authors to have a US agent first, which bumps the overall agent percentage to almost 25-30%.


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## Rick Soper (May 2, 2014)

41 queries, 41 Rejections, and five books later... I'm very happy being self-published.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

Ugh, my first book was a work in progress for years. I queried several agents (don't remember how many), didn't have any willing to look at it, ended up changing the beginning and re-editing the book. In 2011 I sent it to one publisher and received the standard "it's really hard to break into fantasy these days" rejection. Then in 2012 I learned about the whole indie publishing movement and how badly the contracts had become from traditional publishers. I haven't queried any since--at least for novels. 

I still sell short stories to traditional magazines. Once a I get the rights back (typically a year) I self-pub it. Any stories that don't sell to high paying markets are also self-pubbed. 

I do plan on going the traditional route on my m/m mystery/suspense, because that particular market is young and the small publishers involved have half-decent contracts.  But the rest of my stuff I'm sticking with indie.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

judygoodwin said:


> Ugh, my first book was a work in progress for years. I queried several agents (don't remember how many), didn't have any willing to look at it, ended up changing the beginning and re-editing the book. In 2011 I sent it to one publisher and received the standard "it's really hard to break into fantasy these days" rejection. Then in 2012 I learned about the whole indie publishing movement and how badly the contracts had become from traditional publishers. I haven't queried any since--at least for novels.
> 
> I still sell short stories to traditional magazines. Once a I get the rights back (typically a year) I self-pub it. Any stories that don't sell to high paying markets are also self-pubbed.
> 
> I do plan on going the traditional route on my m/m mystery/suspense, because that particular market is young and the small publishers involved have half-decent contracts. But the rest of my stuff I'm sticking with indie.


The time factor is the hardest part and if it is accepted, then you wait another 18 months to see it in print.


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## ElleChambers (Nov 5, 2013)

Nope. I write short and, therefore, knew it was going to be an uphill battle trying to find an agent/publisher. I plan to write novels at some point, but my life is extremely hectic at this point such that I don't have the time to do so. Yet another reason I didn't see trad publishing as an option - I don't want to be constrained by other people's deadlines/length requirements. I have the leisure to write and publish when I can and that eliminates a lot of stress from my life. I couldn't be happier doing what I'm doing now.


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> There's a lot of talk in KB about those "gatekeepers" (AKA literary agents). I tried the traditional route with Predators of Darkness: Aftermath and the process weighs heavy on the soul. Baen Books sat on my novel for nearly six years, expressing interest before finally letting go. Not that that's disheartening because they had taken interest, but that's a lot of time the book could have been available. Since April 2010 until February 2011 I tried more than 100 agents. Several asked for the first fifty pages and several asked for full manuscripts. I had many letters that began, "Due to the current economy . . ."
> 
> I've learned with the new e-querying that agents are allowing, most don't even offer a reply.
> 
> ...


I did at one time but not anymore. This is the way of the future and it's here to stay. I wish I had more time for self promotion however but I do what I can.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Just an FYI--it can be shorter. Montlake takes about 7-9 months. And they'll turn around future books in a series more quickly. It's not as fast as an indie would put books out, but they've got a lot of marketing muscle, of course, so you don't have to go so fast to keep selling. 

I don't know what the Big 5 timetables are these days.


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## Marie Long (Jan 11, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> Update on my post above: I'm at the point where I need an agent (for trad deal and foreign rights etc.) I queried both the agents above who rejected me. Both got right back to me, both are interested, and I'm pretty sure I'll be signing with one shortly as we seem like a good fit.
> 
> What a difference some sales make!


Did you query them your books that you already self-published?? Or did you query them a brand new manuscript? I'm only asking because I was told agents don't like to take on already self-published projects.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Marie Long said:


> Did you query them your books that you already self-published?? Or did you query them a brand new manuscript? I'm only asking because I was told agents don't like to take on already self-published projects.


I said I needed an agent to handle foreign rights requests and similar types of things for my self-published books, as I was getting requests, and that Montlake had invited me to submit a new series and I was interested in trying that route, but wanted an agent if I did so.

The agency I think I'll go with represents a bunch of hybrid authors (and a bunch of Montlake ones, which is especially good to know. Some very good-selling authors.) Your self-published stuff is separate, unless it's a deal they negotiate for you (such as aforesaid foreign rights).

(Oh, and I didn't send a manuscript as I don't have one. Montlake just asked for an idea, and I don't even have the idea yet.  ) But both of them did ask for a copy of my WIP, even though it's not the same "tone" as the thing I have in mind. I guess they just wanted to see how I write--I thought that was interesting, as they could easily have looked at any of my finished books, particularly the ones I told them most resembled the books I had in mind to write next, but I guess that's just the way they've always done things.)

I agree, I don't think publishers are very interested these days in putting out print versions of successful self-published books, unless they're truly gigantic. I've heard that they've been burned on that. Montlake, and the agent, both told me that Montlake (the only one I know about for sure, obviously, but I've been told it's true for other publishers too) always asks for new series now.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Never even tried to publish traditionally. My book stars Loki and features dinosaurs. What sort of lunatic publisher would want to represent _that!_


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## MorganKegan (Jan 10, 2013)

Marie Long said:


> Did you query them your books that you already self-published?? Or did you query them a brand new manuscript? I'm only asking because I was told agents don't like to take on already self-published projects.


And then there's WOOL.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

MorganKegan said:


> And then there's WOOL.


That would fall under the "truly gigantic" category.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> That would fall under the "truly gigantic" category.


Wool is a game changer.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

C. Gockel said:


> Never even tried to publish traditionally. My book stars Loki and features dinosaurs. What sort of lunatic publisher would want to represent _that!_


Agents and publishers do tend to be overly selective. Thanks for sharing!


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## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> There's a lot of talk in KB about those "gatekeepers" (AKA literary agents). I tried the traditional route with Predators of Darkness: Aftermath and the process weighs heavy on the soul. Baen Books sat on my novel for nearly six years, expressing interest before finally letting go. Not that that's disheartening because they had taken interest, but that's a lot of time the book could have been available. From April 2010 until February 2011 I tried more than 100 agents. Several asked for the first fifty pages and several asked for full manuscripts. I had many letters that began, "Due to the current economy . . ."
> 
> I've learned with the new e-querying that agents are allowing, most don't even offer a reply.
> 
> ...


I did.

I had a publisher eager to publish my book, and an agent eager to represent me. But it turned out both were too new to the game to offer me anything substantial. Sure they'd have been able to publish my book... it's not that hard to publish a book. But would they have offered me anything more?

I said no... And went on a querying spree after that. I got rejections. They hurt. I stopped caring.

I figured in the meantime I might as well try something new... like indie publishing. So I did. In the middle of writing my first dragon erotica novella I got the e-mail from a publisher telling me they'd like to publish my novel.

Now that it's published, I wish I'd said no. I have so much control over my indie published stuff, but NONE over my trad published novel.

I crave that control.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

I made an attempt. Back in 2006, I queried about two dozen agents. The majority didn't even respond and of the ones that did, most were form rejection letters. I got one or two letters that were more personalized and basically said they didn't think there was a market for my book. So I went the POD route with Lulu. This was before the Kindle came out, so your options were either POD, vanity press, or traditional. I also think this was before CreateSpace, or maybe I just didn't know about CS.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

I queried one agent about 23 years ago when I finished my first novel. I got an encouraging rejection that made me feel like maybe I could hit the mark with my next book, which I had already started writing. But somewhere along the way I also became aware of the reality that to sell, a book didn't so much have to be good (or not just good) but something that an agent and editor would think was marketable. I knew that the book I was working on at the time probably wasn't marketable the way it was, so I tried to change it to make it more like other fantasy books, and got stuck. That was when I realized I *could not* write with gatekeepers in mind. So I gave up on the idea of publishing, at least for the time being, but kept writing. When I found out about self-publishing via KDP and Smashwords in 2011, I knew it was exactly what I had been waiting for all those years.

That book I got stuck on? I re-wrote it the way I wanted it a few years ago, and launched my publishing career with it last year - Urdaisunia.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I've been traditionally published a few times. The last straw was when I sent a short story off to a magazine and waited. This particular magazine still insisted on snail mail, no email submissions. After three months with no reply, I felt comfortable in calling the editor since she'd bought one of my stories in the past. She said she liked the new story and was on the verge of making a decision. Another month passed before I got the reply that she liked it, but couldn't find a hook for it, although she'd like me to submit again anytime. I said screw it and decided to self-pub.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

I queried about 50 agents. 6-7 asked for a sizeable partial. 4-5 asked for a full.  Every single one of those but one was male. (I'm still trying to figure that out. Pretty much every male agent said "send more," and pretty much every female agent said "no thanks.")  Personal rejections on samples were of the "but" variety. (good writing, interesting blahblah, good credentials) BUT. In most cases, the "but" was no one buys these books now. (natural disaster thrillers), I can't figure out how to sell this, I just sold one and it was hard and won't be able to sell another. One guy said he hated every main character. I love my main characters, so I just shrugged and said, okay, there's room for varying opinions. I spent two years at it and so many hours that I could have drafted two more novels in those hours.

Never again. 

And now I'm an internationally selling author, after less than a week! (okay, not many international sales, but still.)


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## Geoff Jones (Jun 20, 2014)

I queried a ton of agents from December 2013 through March 2014. About half replied, but most sent form letters.

Two agents requested my full manuscript. After 3 months, I heard nothing from them, so I politely asked for an update. Only one responded, to let me know that it was still on the list.

Meanwhile, I began following the blogs of folks like Hugh Howey and Joe Konrath. A local author named Mark Wayne McGinnis was kind enough to meet me for lunch and discuss his experiences self-publishing.

I decided to go ahead and self-publish. I contracted with a local editor and hired a cover artist. I wrote both agents 3 1/2 months after sending them my full and respectfully withdrew my submission.

It was a difficult decision, but I don't regret it. My percentage of every sale is high. I am in control. I have made mistakes, but I have learned from them. My blurb is now much better thanks to folk here at Kboards, and a new cover is coming soon. If I didn't like my publisher's blurb or cover, I would be powerless. Of course I wish my sales were higher, but the number one thing that I'm happy about is:

_People are having a good time reading my book._

If I had pressed on with my traditional publishing efforts, that would not be true yet, and it might not be true ever.

In hindsight, I wish I hadn't spent that time and effort querying agents. It was a pretty discouraging experience. Maybe there isn't a large market for dinosaur time-travel adventures, but as long as a few folks out there are having fun with my book, I'm happy.

Geoff


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

My only half hearted, lame attempt to go the traditional publishing route was looking up the submission guidelines at Harlequin and Tor Books. 
Even back then, I was not enthused about needing to write what Harlequin wanted, and later on, with Tor, I had the feeling they were looking mostly for epic fantasy a la Robert Jordan and George R. R. Martin. 
I subscribed to Writer's Digest. That was more than enough to turn me off to most of the agent querying and all that crap. I've never even_ tried_ drafting a query letter.


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## BradMcDauthor (May 22, 2014)

I tried many many agents, even following names dropped a friend who has made it in triad. Couldn't make it to save my life as no one likes to publish a story about a reluctant bad guy. Then I found KDP and took time to read the posts here. It is an amazing feeling to reply to a agent rejection with "Thanks anyways but the book is already published and selling at a steady pace." The replies I get are amazing and food for the soul.


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## dmac (Jun 23, 2014)

I never attempted to acquire the services of an agent or a publisher. It never occurred to me to travel that route. I always knew self-publishing was the future and not the archaic dinosaur that is traditional publishing.

Curiously, after a couple of my books hit the Top 100 Paid, I had unsolicited offers of representation from a couple of agents. I turned both down gently ... after ignoring their initial emails for a week. A bit cruel, I know, but in my defense, I was very busy and only took 3-4 days to ignore their follow-up emails. Kboards will not peruse itself, after all.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

dmac said:


> Curiously, after a couple of my books hit the Top 100 Paid, I had unsolicited offers of representation from a couple of agents. I turned both down gently ... after ignoring their initial emails for a week. A bit cruel, I know, but in my defense, I was very busy and only took 3-4 days to ignore their follow-up emails. Kboards will not peruse itself, after all.


Don't worry, they probably would have made you wait six months if it had been you contacting them - if you ever heard back from them at all!

That's one of my definitions of success, having an agent or publisher come to you and turning them down


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Kyra Halland said:


> Don't worry, they probably would have made you wait six months if it had been you contacting them - if you ever heard back from them at all!
> 
> That's one of my definitions of success, having an agent or publisher come to you and turning them down


I just got a response back to a query that I sent last August. On one hand, I'm appreciative that they did actually respond. On the other hand, it's been damn near a year since I submitted it. Why bother responding at this point?


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## rchapman1 (Dec 5, 2012)

I had the same experience with Winston - A Horse's Tale.  After self-publishing my first book I did the Monday/Friday submit and just as I was about to hit the print button on CreateSpace one of them asked to see the whole book.  Four months later I received a rejection letter.  I love the control that self-publishing gives you.


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## Blang701 (Aug 19, 2014)

Honestly I did the query letter/agent thing 20+ years ago when I was writing like mad right out of school. Reject, reject, oh oh let me see six more chapters!!! ..... reject. Independent publishing is fantastic.


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## m.a. petterson (Sep 11, 2013)

This is what I learned trying to go the traditional route:

1. How to write a compelling pitch for a query letter - very handy now for crafting blurbs.

2. How to write a query letter - very handy now for soliciting reviews.

3. How to handle rejection - very handy now for numerous reasons.

4. How to understand that having professional representation does not guarantee anything.

5. How to believe in my writing - very handy because I am still here and selling regularly as a very happy Indie.


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## BrentKnowles (Mar 8, 2011)

Until a couple days ago I had nothing to contribute to this discussion. I've been a long-time lurker on the boards and have published several non-fiction (game design) related books and a couple fiction reprints -- short fiction formerly published traditionally, wherein the rights had reverted to me.

For over twenty years I have been pursing the traditional path. I have around thirty short stories published, some of them in well known venues such as the Writers of the Future Contest. Over the past five years I started to write and submit novels again, after having focused on short fiction for a couple decades.

A few days ago I decided to release my first novel.

How many rejections had I accumulated before I did this? For this particular novel, I think it was about 7-8 plus several agent queries. In total (counting all my fiction and novels)? Well over a thousand rejections. I stopped counting a few years ago, so I'm probably closer to fifteen hundred rejections or so.

Going forward? I intend to release a couple of my novels (the ones I'm most confident in). New novels I write will still likely be submitted to traditional publishers. Maybe I'm being silly, I don't know. And obviously if major (or even moderate) success comes my way with releasing my work on my own, I might reconsider.

So... that's my story


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## Sharon Austin (Oct 13, 2010)

Twelve years of my life were spent in Query Hell. Racked up 700+ rejections, mostly cold, Xeroxed, form letters. I saved them. Planned to build a bonfire, someday, and burn them all. Make s’mores. Celebrate finding representation.

A request for a full arrived in my ivory-colored SASE. It was from an established NYC agency. The same day, I wrapped up my manuscript and rushed to the post office to mail it. Months went by. Still no word from her. I emailed a polite reminder. Two hours later I received a rejection stating she couldn’t connect with the voice. The same voice I used in the query and a 5-page sample? That voice?

Some things in life are a crapshoot, but you can’t have great rewards without taking risks, and you can’t move forward if you remain caught up in the old ways of doing business. You have to take control of your own destiny. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

That same day, I deleted my list of agents and their contact info. Deleted every emailed rejection. Fed every paper rejection to a shredder. Went online and learned everything I could about ebooks and self-publishing.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Katy said:


> After reading stories like these, the whole thought of the query process was so depressing that I couldn't even finish my novel.
> When I started reading about Kindle publishing, I started writing again. Finished the book in a few months, and I couldn't be more thrilled now that it's on Kindle.


Yes, same here. My first novel was almost published by a large company, but they wanted me to turn it into a romance. It's a historical western murder mystery, so I said "no." Another one said the same thing, and I said "no." I'm stubborn that way. LOL. The same book sat at an e-book publisher for over FOUR years, too, before I finally told them to take a leap. THEN it was semi-accepted by a small regional press, put through the wringer with numerous editors and wannabe authors who ripped it to shreds, said I should add 25,000 words (which I did), THEN they said the file was corrupted and that the book was a piece of trash. Sigh. SO, you can imagine that after all that, i decided to self-publish it.

The day I made the decision to self-publish my fiction was the day I got excited about writing again. If the right deal came up, I might consider going with another company, but they'd have to give me plenty of time to finish a book. Not some of this current nonsense about cranking out a series in 6-months, which is what some of my friends are going through now with mysteries. <shudder>


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

I queried several times over the last 9 years, and came close a few times to landing an agent. But I write mostly PNR and the market is overloaded with that genre.

Recently a bestselling author read some of my work and offered to introduce me to her agent, but wanted to know my current sales numbers. Since they were not that high (I'm assuming that agent would want the number to be the thousands) I did not submit anything or contact the agent. But, man, a big part of me wishes I could...


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## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

It would be nice, but I'm just as happy running my own site and doing my own marketing.  I worked in film for 14 years and my experience with agents has all been smoke and mirrors.


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

In 2002 I submitted a manuscript to Baen Books. Shortly thereafter I received an acknowledgement that they had received the manuscript, and that I would be contacted when a decision was made, but that I shouldn't contact them until I heard back because the approval process can take quite some time. My name was on every page, and my name, telephone number, snail mail address, and email address was on the front page. Do you think I should stop looking for an approval or rejection letter?

This is a true story by the way.  LOL


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## BrentKnowles (Mar 8, 2011)

scribblr -- that's quite the wait!

I've had multi-year waits on novels, but never that long!! I do have a short story that's been under consideration for about four years now though.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

scribblr said:


> In 2002 I submitted a manuscript to Baen Books. Shortly thereafter I received an acknowledgement that they had received the manuscript, and that I would be contacted when a decision was made, but that I shouldn't contact them until I heard back because the approval process can take quite some time. My name was on every page, and my name, telephone number, snail mail address, and email address was on the front page. Do you think I should stop looking for an approval or rejection letter?
> 
> This is a true story by the way. LOL


Any day now...

Seriously, the boorishness of those arrogant @#[email protected]@ never ceases to amaze me.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

scribblr said:


> In 2002 I submitted a manuscript to Baen Books. Shortly thereafter I received an acknowledgement that they had received the manuscript, and that I would be contacted when a decision was made, but that I shouldn't contact them until I heard back because the approval process can take quite some time. My name was on every page, and my name, telephone number, snail mail address, and email address was on the front page. Do you think I should stop looking for an approval or rejection letter?
> 
> This is a true story by the way. LOL


Wow . . .


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

This is a dusty-old thread featuring dusty-old assumptions that the best path to success is via traditional publishing.

Really weirded-out that this thread remains popular.

I pursued the traditional path from the age of 14 or so, in 1980, through 2010. I think 30 years of banging my head into concrete was plenty.

In 2011, I finally chucked it and went the indie route. Never looking back again.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Perhaps it is that authors now think that things are changing, and are coming to this thread to see what path others have taken. It seems to me that the new ways are for tradpubbed authors to experiment with self-publishing--that's happening--and for indie authors to get hybrid deals after they've launched their careers self-pubbing. That's happening too. An agent can be very helpful to an indie author by negotiating deals on things like foreign rights. Some authors also use literary attorneys and forego the agent. In any case, sharing information about that is helpful, at least to me. I got good advice from many folks I had met on this board when I ventured into hybrid territory.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

That's awesome, Rosalind.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

CraigInOregon said:


> That's awesome, Rosalind.


Thanks! It's exciting, and for the record since it's what we're discussing, my agent has been great so far, very helpful.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

CraigInOregon said:


> This is a dusty-old thread featuring dusty-old assumptions that the best path to success is via traditional publishing.
> 
> Really weirded-out that this thread remains popular.
> 
> ...


The OP comes by every once and a while and puts a post in it so it hits the first page again. So it's not organically popular, he keeps reviving it, people see it, don't realize it's old and respond.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

^^^While true, we still have new authors entering the Indie world that have either sought the traditional path or left traditional publishing for Indie.  I think it's great to hear their stories as well.  I have read each and every response and enjoy learning why others finally decided to go Indie.


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## CaraS. (Jul 18, 2014)

I've been here for quite some time. This is the first time I've seen this thread, and wanted to comment. In the late 80s, I submitted several novels directly to a publisher, "Avalon." Two novels were written specifically for their market; an editor liked one of those, and suggested some rewrites. I did those, but still rejected. Fast forward to the late 90s, had my wrok on my website, which was a webzine "The Prose Menagerie." It was like a magazine (if any of you remember those) and one of the first epublishers found my site, hit me up for a deal to publish several of my novels for the first ebook reader: Rocket ebook reader. Novels were available via Barnes & Noble and Powell Books online. Several did very well, but eventually my publisher went out of business, and per the contract, all rights reverted back to me. At that point, I guess I was disillusioned, so the novels stayed on my hard drive. Fast foward to 2012 when I first got interested in publishing through Amazon. I'm not making a fortune, but a couple of my novels sell copies every day. I'm retired now with a stable financial situation, so don't really need the money -- and price my ebooks at .99 cents. 

At any rate, in one of those odd quirks, I decided to look up Avalon one day. Guess what? Avalon was bought out by Amazon! So the novel I nearly sold them, "The Secret of Crybaby Hollow" (and my best selling ebook) would have ended up with Amazon owning the copyright. Instead, I do. Funny how things work out...


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

CaraS. said:


> I've been here for quite some time. This is the first time I've seen this thread, and wanted to comment. In the late 80s, I submitted several novels directly to a publisher, "Avalon." Two novels were written specifically for their market; an editor liked one of those, and suggested some rewrites. I did those, but still rejected. Fast forward to the late 90s, had my wrok on my website, which was a webzine "The Prose Menagerie." It was like a magazine (if any of you remember those) and one of the first epublishers found my site, hit me up for a deal to publish several of my novels for the first ebook reader: Rocket ebook reader. Novels were available via Barnes & Noble and Powell Books online. Several did very well, but eventually my publisher went out of business, and per the contract, all rights reverted back to me. At that point, I guess I was disillusioned, so the novels stayed on my hard drive. Fast foward to 2012 when I first got interested in publishing through Amazon. I'm not making a fortune, but a couple of my novels sell copies every day. I'm retired now with a stable financial situation, so don't really need the money -- and price my ebooks at .99 cents.
> 
> At any rate, in one of those odd quirks, I decided to look up Avalon one day. Guess what? Avalon was bought out by Amazon! So the novel I nearly sold them, "The Secret of Crybaby Hollow" (and my best selling ebook) would have ended up with Amazon owning the copyright. Instead, I do. Funny how things work out...


Wow. Indeed a blessing in disguise. Wishing you and all Indies much success in 2015! Thanks for sharing!


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

Brenna said:


> No joke, this July on my way to RWA Nationals, I got a query rejection 2 years and 2 months after I sent it out.
> 
> In the meantime, I had acquired an agent, gone on submission with that book (a historical romance) for six months that ended in all rejections, written, revised and gone on submission with my contemporary romance, gone to editorial auction, turned down those offers, parted ways with the agent, and then self-published the contemporary romance AND its follow up 4 1/2 months later.
> 
> All in the time it took that big time NY agent to get my query, let it sit in her inbox and then get back to me. LOL. Now I have a funny story to tell!


lol Brenna 

For me, I wasted a year of my life querying agents. Got about 200+ rejections. One agent of note said it was very well written but doesn't strike her as YA. Turned to indie publishing. Spent two years studying successful methods from the gentle giants of kboards. Released book late November. It became a bestseller ...

... in YA.


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## Tommy Muncie (Dec 8, 2014)

I sent my novel to some agents and one publisher, and got back only one rejection note, but it didn't matter because all I was really doing was seeing what would happen and knew the answer was probably not a lot. So then I self-published as I'd planned to if I got nowhere the traditional way. I've done so many job applications in the last year trying to sell myself that I never really felt like trying to sell my writing to someone else - my hobby was already feeling like a chore the more cover letters and synopses I wrote. Self publishing was the option I liked more as soon as I started learning about it and teaching myself ebook formatting. I've enjoyed the whole thing so much that I'm going to do it from now on and probably never write another letter to an agent or publisher. I at least say 'probably,' because I can never predict the future.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Kindlemojodotcom_Tom said:


> It would be nice, but I'm just as happy running my own site and doing my own marketing. I worked in film for 14 years and my experience with agents has all been smoke and mirrors.


Hollywood agents are a different breed. I've never heard back from any of them on my scripts. Someone kept all my postage on SASE though.


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

Yes, for 10 years. It's been a rollercoaster of a journey. I got my first agent a couple of years into writing seriously for publication, and things didn't work out very well there. So, we parted ways and I queried with another manuscript and got another agent fairly quickly. She was wonderful, top-tier, and she tried her very best to sell several of my novels. We made it to second reads, ed boards and acquisitions meetings, but I always got passed on due to marketing. Finally, she decided that she didn't feel she was the best agent to sell my work, so again, we parted ways. I tried for several months after that to find another agent, but the newest, unshopped manuscript I had didn't really grab anyone's interest.

It's been a rough road, but now I've decided to self-pub those novels that never made it and write their sequels. Hopefully, they will find an audience.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

CraigInOregon said:


> Really weirded-out that this thread remains popular.


I'm unsurprised: it's a timeless, ever-relevant, ever-interesting question, in a forum like this.



X. Aratare said:


> The OP comes by every once and a while and puts a post in it so it hits the first page again. So it's not organically popular, he keeps reviving it, people see it, don't realize it's old and respond.


That's a plus, isn't it? 



> Indie Authors, Did you seek traditional agents/publishers first?


I'm a "hybrid" author. I sought (and found) an agent and a trade publisher first. I switched to self-publishing when the publisher - to my agent's surprise - more or less rejected my second book, in spite of the first selling unexpectedly well, in the form of a very low advance offer and an equally low proposed marketing budget for it. (I was - and am - far more interested in proposed marketing budgets than in advances, the latter being only early payment of your own income anyway, after all.)

Fortunately, my agent also has plenty of experience with self-publishing, otherwise I'd have been all at sea (not having discovered this forum, at that point).


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2015)

I heard it was almost impossible to find an agent, but I tried a few. Mostly I got form rejections or no replies. Then I tried a handful of small publishers who accepted unagented work. I received some positive feedback from some of them, but no one bit. After researching what small publishers had to offer a writer, I decided not to pursue that avenue any more.

I wasn't sure which way to go next when an acquaintance of mine, who was doing well self-publishing, encouraged me to try Amazon. I was very hesitant at first, but then I thought, why not? It's been a learning experience, but a fun one. It's like running a small business and I'm enjoying seeing how far I can take it.


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## Deborahsmith author (Jul 23, 2013)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> I believe with the success of many Indie authors, these "first rights" are being reconsidered. Here's my take on being an Indie and why I finally chose this route.
> 1)Even traditionally published, I'd have to do the majority of publicity myself.
> 2)In the matter of six months to a year, my book might not be on the shelf. Not true with Kindle/Createspace.
> 3)The only book exposure, unless you're someone like King or Koontz, is how you market it. Social networking is key.


I see a lot of this talk about trad publishers; there's some confusion about the issues. A trad publisher is NOT going to turn down a great new book by any author, period. But if that book has already been published by the author, there may be negatives attached to it that damage the publisher's ability to re-launch the title to a larger audience. 1. major reviewers often refuse to consider a title that's already been published in some other form; ditto for potential excerpt deals with major magazines. 2. the book's already picked up some mediocre or bad reviews; even if it hasn't, the eternal online presence of the original version, with what may be an amateurish cover, badly edited cover copy, and loads of suspect praise from family and friends, isn't something the publisher wants associated with their product. 3. if the author has successfully marketed the ebook edition, the publisher may feel that sales to the core audience are already exhausted, or that sales to the key demographic who would launch the book to a wider audience are no longer there. In other words, the buzz factor has been lost.

Another thing I see indies say a lot is "my book will disappear from the shelves in a few months if it's traditionally published." Er . . . your book will disappear into the ether, regardless. Your best and only hope of ever seeing a print edition of your book on actual bookstore shelves is via a trad publisher, and even then the chances are slight. Only 5 percent,at most, of print titles ever reach a retail shelf these days. Regardless, your book will continue to appear in major online platforms in print and ebook formats via a trad publisher, just as it would if you self-pubbed. In fact, given the distribution of trad publishers, your book will be online in far, far more venues than you would ever be able to place it, yourself.

"I'm going to have to do all the marketing myself, anyway."

The basic machinery of a major trad publisher sells more books for an author without one shred of author self-promotion than most authors can sell with a thousand BookBub ads, forever. That may not be a huge number of books, but it's still sizable. The distribution and sales network is a giant wave that carries your book along with all the others; even the smallest fish get a certain amount of distance out of the ride.

Yes, you'll do self-promotion to keep the copies selling. Either way, you will. But ten years from now when you're not promoting that book anymore, you're likely to still get royalty checks from the publisher, who'll be selling copies somewhere.

I'm not pushing trad publishing over self-publishing. It's a trade-off on some key points of control. Been there, done that, still have the scars to prove it. Self-publishing is a great thing. But the misinformation about trad publishing is not helpful here.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Deborahsmith author said:


> A trad publisher is NOT going to turn down a great new book by any author, period.


Yep. Just ask JK Rowling.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

I haven't tried the trad route. I intended to, but then after completing the first novel found the idea of trying to sell myself around, for potentially years, disheartening. Especially as I already face pleasing the gatekeepers in my other writing life, as a scriptwriter. That's when someone told me about the likes of Hugh Howey, and then I discovered the Self  Publishing Podcast guys, and decided this was the way for me. Much more exciting. And no waiting around, I can get the work out when and how I like. Indie is cool. I probably won't get rich, or super well known, but then that's not the point.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Deborahsmith author said:


> I see a lot of this talk about trad publishers; there's some confusion about the issues. A trad publisher is NOT going to turn down a great new book by any author, period. But if that book has already been published by the author, there may be negatives attached to it that damage the publisher's ability to re-launch the title to a larger audience. 1. major reviewers often refuse to consider a title that's already been published in some other form; ditto for potential excerpt deals with major magazines. 2. the book's already picked up some mediocre or bad reviews; even if it hasn't, the eternal online presence of the original version, with what may be an amateurish cover, badly edited cover copy, and loads of suspect praise from family and friends, isn't something the publisher wants associated with their product. 3. if the author has successfully marketed the ebook edition, the publisher may feel that sales to the core audience are already exhausted, or that sales to the key demographic who would launch the book to a wider audience are no longer there. In other words, the buzz factor has been lost.
> 
> Another thing I see indies say a lot is "my book will disappear from the shelves in a few months if it's traditionally published." Er . . . your book will disappear into the ether, regardless. Your best and only hope of ever seeing a print edition of your book on actual bookstore shelves is via a trad publisher, and even then the chances are slight. Only 5 percent,at most, of print titles ever reach a retail shelf these days. Regardless, your book will continue to appear in major online platforms in print and ebook formats via a trad publisher, just as it would if you self-pubbed. In fact, given the distribution of trad publishers, your book will be online in far, far more venues than you would ever be able to place it, yourself.
> 
> ...


Great points! There are benefits with some traditional publishers. I don't argue that. However, unless the publisher grants your book(s) a fantastic promotional budget, getting noticed is very difficult. That's what I mean by point 1. I agree that "a trad publisher is NOT going to turn down a great new book by any author, period." The problem is getting that book past an agent to a publisher. Most agents are looking for the next mega-blockbuster (I can't blame them), but they are also letting real gems slip away. A lot of these gems are the ones hitting mega-sales in the indie route, and suddenly, the agents take renewed interest. It's a little late to the party then.

A lot of mid-listers have gone the Indie route now, too. Why? Because publishers pour the majority of marketing money into what they consider their "cash cow" authors. A select few. Many mid-listers are making more money as Indies than they ever were with trads. Were it not for the Indie route many would still be standing on the outside looking in and waiting for a chance to find an audience.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

zoe tate said:


> I'm unsurprised: it's a timeless, ever-relevant, ever-interesting question, in a forum like this.
> 
> That's a plus, isn't it?
> 
> ...


Thanks!  And glad you found Kboards!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Yep. Just ask JK Rowling.


Meg Cabot (The Princess Diaries). Two years of rejections before she found an agent.
Tom Clancy. The Hunt for Red October. Finally published by the Naval Institute Press after EVERYBODY had said no. 
Gone With the Wind. Rejected 38 times.
And...me too! Also 38 times! Between my first and second books. Three publishers, 35 agents (one of whom is now, yep, my agent). Except now there's this wonderful thing called indie publishing. Five months in, I'd sold almost 30,000 copies of those books that nobody wanted.

For the record: all the great stuff that's happened to me in publishing happened after, and because, I sold a bunch of books in two series by myself, and had a track record. Including an editor reading my books and coming to me asking me to write a series for them, which was a whole lot less painful and more profitable way to go about it than the way I started out with. (Obviously, I don't discount the benefits of traditional publishing, or I wouldn't have gone for the deal.)

I'm not saying I write "great" books. But I think the idea that a highly salable book won't be rejected has been pretty thoroughly disproven over time.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> I think the idea that a highly salable book won't be rejected has been pretty thoroughly disproven over time.


Bold statement, Rosalind. These are after all professionals who have the best interest of writers and literature at heart. 

Let's ask John Kennedy Toole.

Oops...


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Bold statement, Rosalind. These are after all professionals who have the best interest of writers and literature at heart.
> 
> Let's ask John Kennedy Toole.
> 
> Oops...


I was trying to remember the name of that author. Yep. 
Seven years of rejections. Author suicide at 31 in despair. Author's mom, 11 years later, finds a smeared carbon copy and spends more years getting somebody to read it.

Book wins the Pulitzer Prize and becomes a major bestseller and, yep, is still selling a few copies now.


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## jnicholls (Dec 7, 2014)

I could be completely wrong about my assumption here, and while I've only done a small amount of research on Literary agents etc, my findings were thus.
They seem to only be interested in people who have already 'made it'...in that they've had a best seller award, hit  the top 100 of amazon etc.
They expect you to have your own work edited and after you've submitted your book, and re edited to their suggestions, they still reject it.
I think publishers and agents have become lazy and only want a 'sure thing'. While I appreciate they have clout where book stores/sellers are concerned and spend money on advertising, which of course, is what we need, but I feel the number of people who are successful after submitting their work, without having hit the top already, would be limited.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Note I think Deborah's points may be relevant if an author writes one literary fiction novel every five years or whatever. For a genre fiction author writing three or more novels a year? Not so much. So what if you're less likely to have THOSE books picked up and republished in ebook and/or print form? (Which is, I will note, still happening.) You can write a new book, a new series, for a traditional publisher in three months or less. (In my case, six weeks, and I'm not fast.) And you may also get tradpub deals on audio, foreign editions, etc., on those already-published ebooks, which can be lovely and lucrative and for which you have to put out zero dollars or effort--all while you are selling your books yourself at a 70% royalty. 

I will also say that I find the idea pretty insulting that a self-published novel that will do well enough for a tradpub to pick it up would be likely to have editing errors in the blurb, an amateur cover, and suspect reviews from family and friends. In fact, I rewrote my blurb for my first tradpub book. (After giving them the copy from which they took it in the first place.) They are putting it out with my blurb. So.....

Indie authors who are succeeding at this deal are doing so because they're good at covers, and blurbs, and marketing, and finding ways to get their books well-enough edited to stand up against tradpubbed books, and getting reviews from legitimate sources. And because they write books people want to read and produce them consistently and reliably.

If a traditional publisher isn't interested in an author who can do all that, well...I think they should be. I'll just say that.


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## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

Publishers pass on great books all the time. They pick up great books, they pass on great books. They pick-up not-so-great books, and they pass on not-so-great books. Don't forget that even if an editor falls in love with a book, it might still get rejected. Marketing and sales have to approve it, and that has more to do with the market and what's hot than how solid a book is.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

CadyVance said:



> Publishers pass on great books all the time. They pick up great books, they pass on great books. They pick-up not-so-great books, and they pass on not-so-great books. Don't forget that even if an editor falls in love with a book, it might still get rejected. Marketing and sales have to approve it, and that has more to do with the market and what's hot than how solid a book is.


You are correct!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> Indie authors who are succeeding at this deal are doing so because they're good at covers, and blurbs, and marketing, and finding ways to get their books well-enough edited to stand up against tradpubbed books, and getting reviews from legitimate sources. And because they write books people want to read and produce them consistently and reliably.


And we see this happen. But now, some agents are trying to lure authors into giving up percentages of their royalties by offering to do what we can already do via self-publishing. The game is changing in the publishing world.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

jnicholls said:


> I could be completely wrong about my assumption here, and while I've only done a small amount of research on Literary agents etc, my findings were thus.
> They seem to only be interested in people who have already 'made it'...in that they've had a best seller award, hit the top 100 of amazon etc.
> They expect you to have your own work edited and after you've submitted your book, and re edited to their suggestions, they still reject it.
> I think publishers and agents have become lazy and only want a 'sure thing'. While I appreciate they have clout where book stores/sellers are concerned and spend money on advertising, which of course, is what we need, but I feel the number of people who are successful after submitting their work, without having hit the top already, would be limited.


With the drastic changes in the publishing world, this is probably so. But it never hurts to keep trying, I suppose, if that's what a person seeks.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> I will also say that I find the idea pretty insulting that a self-published novel that will do well enough for a tradpub to pick it up would be likely to have editing errors in the blurb, an amateur cover, and suspect reviews from family and friends. In fact, I rewrote my blurb for my first tradpub book. (After giving them the copy from which they took it in the first place.) They are putting it out with my blurb. So.....
> 
> Indie authors who are succeeding at this deal are doing so because they're good at covers, and blurbs, and marketing, and finding ways to get their books well-enough edited to stand up against tradpubbed books, and getting reviews from legitimate sources. And because they write books people want to read and produce them consistently and reliably.
> 
> If a traditional publisher isn't interested in an author who can do all that, well...I think they should be. I'll just say that.


I agree.


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

I was represented by a big-time agent for ten years, and he shopped a few of my novels around but couldn't sell them. One was too dark (Lord of the Black Land), one was too weird (The Atomic Sea). In the end I went indie with some of the stuff he had rejected or hadn't been able to sell. I had to do it under a pen name because he had told me not to self-publish.

When I told him about it, he dropped me. He said it was because I'd lost faith in him. Maybe I had. Then again, it had been _ten years_. Should I have continued to wait and hope, possibly for another ten years? Maybe. I suppose I'll never know.

At least now I don't have to spend every waking moment waiting for the phone to ring. I know it won't. I have to achieve success (or not) under my own power. In a way, it's demoralizing. In a way, it's quite liberating.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

jackconnerbooks said:


> I was represented by a big-time agent for ten years, and he shopped a few of my novels around but couldn't sell them. One was too dark (Lord of the Black Land), one was too weird (The Atomic Sea). In the end I went indie with some of the stuff he had rejected or hadn't been able to sell. I had to do it under a pen name because he had told me not to self-publish.
> 
> When I told him about it, he dropped me. He said it was because I'd lost faith in him. Maybe I had. Then again, it had been _ten years_. Should I have continued to wait and hope, possibly for another ten years? Maybe. I suppose I'll never know.
> 
> At least now I don't have to spend every waking moment waiting for the phone to ring. I know it won't. I have to achieve success (or not) under my own power. In a way, it's demoralizing. In a way, it's quite liberating.


I waited for a long time, too. I had been corresponding with a renowned sci-fi author via email for a long time. When I told him that I was finally going to self-publish, after many months of writing one another, he was insistent that I not do it. From then on, he never responded to any further emails. Ten years is an extremely long time to wait. Welcome to the club, albeit not their club.

Sadly, there's a stigma that many in the traditional world have toward indies. Not all, as many trads are now going indie or hybrid. My latest book released on January 1st. I sent out several dozen Press Releases to newspapers. Only one got back with me and did a half page story with a write-up and cover picture.

Thanks for sharing!


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I have an agent/agency, and an IP lawyer, but I continue to self publish. I'm not going to hold my breath for traditional contracts. While I'd love a traditional contract under my name, I also love self publishing, and my readers are glad I do. 
Ghost writing is also a viable way to make a living.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Lisa Grace said:


> I have an agent/agency, and an IP lawyer, but I continue to self publish. I'm not going to hold my breath for traditional contracts. While I'd love a traditional contract under my name, I also love self publishing, and my readers are glad I do.
> Ghost writing is also a viable way to make a living.


Ghost writing is extremely viable. I have made a lot of money ghost writing. I haven't done it in some time, but its definitely something I'd consider doing again if a lucrative enough opportunity presented itself.


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## noirhvy (Dec 29, 2015)

I can't imagine an agent, no matter how talented and smart, that could sell a book that doesn't fit into a cozy little niche somewhere. That's how the world is run these days. It's the All-Knowing Great Algorithm in the Sky that is worshiped. I'm trying right now to try to figure out how to cram my book-to-be into some narrow category or the other.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

noirhvy said:


> I can't imagine an agent, no matter how talented and smart, that could sell a book that doesn't fit into a cozy little niche somewhere. That's how the world is run these days. It's the All-Knowing Great Algorithm in the Sky that is worshiped. I'm trying right now to try to figure out how to cram my book-to-be into some narrow category or the other.


Exactly. My first series is cross-genre (sci-fi, dystopia, mystery, suspense, thriller, horror, etc.), which makes it difficult to categorize into one singular place.


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> Exactly. My first series is cross-genre (sci-fi, dystopia, mystery, suspense, thriller, horror, etc.), which makes it difficult to categorize into one singular place.


I managed to secure a publisher for my speculative science fiction, time travel, action adventure, historical romance thriller, so it is possible 

Couldn't find an agent, though...


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## EllaC (Jan 25, 2016)

I tried 2 separate agents, spaced about a year apart. The first came back with a rejection within hours. In all fairness, I was quite the rookie back then and sent what I am now certain was ten pages of crap.  

On the second occasion i reached out to Curtis Brown, one of the bigger London agents. Their new-writers team kept my 10K words for 3 months. They told me that they had tried to persuade one of the agents to pick up on the series, but without success.

Even though it was disappointing, the fact that somebody liked my work was tantamount to a ray of sunshine appearing in a bleak and forbidding world. 

After that I didn't bother with the traditional route. 

I researched the indie process, put my head down and got on with it.

If I were to be picked up by either agent or publisher, I suspect it would only happen if I was already successful. It's irritating and offensive, yet the way of the world. (Think Kim Kardashian) The entire publishing industry appears to be driven by fear, and it's important that we, as independents, do not emulate this negativity or allow it to bring us down. Just go for it, guys. What do we have to lose?

Ella Carmichael
Miracles and Millions.


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## Megan Crewe (Oct 8, 2015)

jnicholls said:


> I could be completely wrong about my assumption here, and while I've only done a small amount of research on Literary agents etc, my findings were thus.
> They seem to only be interested in people who have already 'made it'...in that they've had a best seller award, hit the top 100 of amazon etc.
> They expect you to have your own work edited and after you've submitted your book, and re edited to their suggestions, they still reject it.
> I think publishers and agents have become lazy and only want a 'sure thing'. While I appreciate they have clout where book stores/sellers are concerned and spend money on advertising, which of course, is what we need, but I feel the number of people who are successful after submitting their work, without having hit the top already, would be limited.


I hope you're open to hearing this, but your assumption is completely inaccurate. Most of the traditionally published authors I know got agents for and sold their first novels without any awards, bestselling stats, or any real platform whatsoever. I've done two surveys on this topic, once in 2009 and once this past fall, and both times found that the majority of traditionally published authors were able to get their first books published without any obvious "in" other than having a book that in itself got agents/editors excited.

2015 survey results: http://www.megancrewe.com/blog/?p=2764

As one specific data point, when I got my first agent, I was a total nobody. That didn't stop her from taking on my book or multiple editors from being interested in buying it. When I got my second agent, I still wasn't much of anybody--I'd had one book published, but it hadn't sold especially well or won any awards--but the new book I was submitting caught people's interest enough I had offers from multiple agents and then from multiple publishers.

I also haven't talked to any authors who had agents expecting them to get their book professionally edited before the agent would consider it. (Yes, agents expect you to have revised your own work, not to submit a first draft, but the only agents I know of who'd suggest paying someone to edit it for you are scam artists who are getting kickbacks from the editors they recommend.)

It's easy to point to self published authors who got offered traditional publishing contracts because their book really took off. But it's important to remember that a) the majority of traditionally published debut books coming out still aren't books that were previously published anywhere or by authors who'd self published other books (so there's no way those authors could have already "made it"), and b) even among previously self published books, it's the bestselling titles that get the buzz and therefore that you hear about, even though there are plenty of self published books that have gotten picked up for traditional publication without being bestsellers or having won awards. I know several authors who had self published books picked up by APub who had been doing all right but not tremendously well.



noirhvy said:


> I can't imagine an agent, no matter how talented and smart, that could sell a book that doesn't fit into a cozy little niche somewhere. That's how the world is run these days. It's the All-Knowing Great Algorithm in the Sky that is worshiped. I'm trying right now to try to figure out how to cram my book-to-be into some narrow category or the other.


It may be somewhat different in the adult market--I have heard people say that the genre restrictions are more... restrictive there--but within YA, I haven't found this to be an insurmountable problem. An agent managed to sell my first book in the middle of the TWILIGHT boom despite it being a paranormal that had no romance and really was more about real life drama than special powers. An agent managed to sell my most recent series, the first book of which is a mishmash of time travel adventure and alien invasion thriller. It's definitely _harder_ to sell a book that isn't in a clear niche, but it's far from impossible.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks for posting that, Megan.

I am very much into my self-publishing right now, for my current series, but I still have a lot of friends and acquaintances in "trad pub" and might consider it again in the future.
For the people I know with trad-pub contracts, most are in adult fiction (genre and literary) and they all had some sort of platform, prior credits, and/or social contacts/referrals which would have helped them get their foot in the door. That said, I do think it's still possible to sell a book to New York publishers on the strength of a query alone, it's just a very long shot.


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## Megan Crewe (Oct 8, 2015)

ameliasmith said:


> For the people I know with trad-pub contracts, most are in adult fiction (genre and literary) and they all had some sort of platform, prior credits, and/or social contacts/referrals which would have helped them get their foot in the door. That said, I do think it's still possible to sell a book to New York publishers on the strength of a query alone, it's just a very long shot.


It's interesting that you've found that to be the case among people you know. In both my recent and previous survey I had many adult authors answering (though mostly genre) and their results were consistent with the overall pattern (i.e., most had no connections or substantial prior platform). From what I've seen, it is much more common for adult writers to have _some_ sort of prior credits before selling a novel--mainly because there is still a small market for adult short fiction, but pretty much none for YA/children's--but that's a matter of showing you've learned your writing craft and can write things that other publishing professionals like. Short fiction credits aren't going to make you a "bestseller" or someone with an existing wide readership, considering that the audience for short fiction is vanishingly small these days. So it's still a situation where an author writes the best stories they can and getting published or not based on the stories themselves, just with an extra step of going through that for shorter works before they attempt something longer. Which to me is a very different thing from the idea that authors need to prove they can bring in tons of sales before anyone in traditional publishing will consider their book.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

SteveHarrison said:


> I managed to secure a publisher for my speculative science fiction, time travel, action adventure, historical romance thriller, so it is possible
> 
> Couldn't find an agent, though...


 That's fabulous! Congrats! I remember a time when a publisher would say, "Fabulous! We'll publish it once you secure an agent." Believe me, I spent nearly fifteen years submitting, and for a while I honestly felt like I needed an agent to get an agent!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Lisa Grace said:


> I have an agent/agency, and an IP lawyer, but I continue to self publish. I'm not going to hold my breath for traditional contracts. While I'd love a traditional contract under my name, I also love self publishing, and my readers are glad I do.
> Ghost writing is also a viable way to make a living.


I'm the same. If I was offered a great traditional contract, I'd really consider it. I'm not knocking the traditional route at all. But with Borders' demise and other major bookstores shrinking or closing some of their stores, the brick and mortar market is disappearing. I miss those stores, too. We had two Borders in our area that were packed with buyers seven days a week. They allowed me to do book signings, too. With the entire chain filing bankruptcy, they were gone. But I do miss that.

So, that leaves me with a question of book placement if the majority of bookstores close shop. I know Amazon is gearing up to open brick and mortar stores, but who knows what that will bring.


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## TommyHill (Dec 21, 2015)

Yep. I tried the "nuke from orbit" approach for a few months and got nothing but rejections (if I got anything at all). I always knew self-publishing would be there if I didn't get any bites, so I wasn't too disheartened by not landing an agent. I figure if my self-published material can get big enough, a publisher might want to pick it up. It would be cool if it happened, but if it doesn't, oh well.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

Megan Crewe said:


> From what I've seen, it is much more common for adult writers to have _some_ sort of prior credits before selling a novel--mainly because there is still a small market for adult short fiction, but pretty much none for YA/children's--but that's a matter of showing you've learned your writing craft and can write things that other publishing professionals like. Short fiction credits aren't going to make you a "bestseller" or someone with an existing wide readership, considering that the audience for short fiction is vanishingly small these days. So it's still a situation where an author writes the best stories they can and getting published or not based on the stories themselves, just with an extra step of going through that for shorter works before they attempt something longer. Which to me is a very different thing from the idea that authors need to prove they can bring in tons of sales before anyone in traditional publishing will consider their book.


The cases I was thinking of involved personal social connections, introductions, and/or some platform built on non-fiction writing. Of course in SFF, there are also quite a few authors who build up short fiction credits before trying to sell a novel, too, because there are still short fiction markets for the genre.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Megan Crewe said:


> I hope you're open to hearing this, but your assumption is completely inaccurate. Most of the traditionally published authors I know got agents for and sold their first novels without any awards, bestselling stats, or any real platform whatsoever. I've done two surveys on this topic, once in 2009 and once this past fall, and both times found that the majority of traditionally published authors were able to get their first books published without any obvious "in" other than having a book that in itself got agents/editors excited.
> 
> 2015 survey results: http://www.megancrewe.com/blog/?p=2764
> 
> ...


Great information! Thanks for posting this!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

TommyHill said:


> Yep. I tried the "nuke from orbit" approach for a few months and got nothing but rejections (if I got anything at all). I always knew self-publishing would be there if I didn't get any bites, so I wasn't too disheartened by not landing an agent. I figure if my self-published material can get big enough, a publisher might want to pick it up. It would be cool if it happened, but if it doesn't, oh well.


You might consider trying Kindle Scout. If nothing else, it does give your book publicity. Cheers!


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## Al Scott (Dec 22, 2015)

It's not that I would turn down working with agents, but I certainly do not consider myself one of those writers that would send hundreds of letters looking for someone to represent them.  Just too many sad stories of people being constantly rejected that turns me off from even contacting them. 
I think if it was not for the possibility of indie publishing, I would not be looking to publish any of my work in the first place.
So, at least I am not looking for traditional publishers in order to publish my work.


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## benlovejoy (Feb 28, 2016)

I come from a background in non-fiction traditional publishing. Mostly without agents, but I did use an agent for one book because she said she could get me a better deal than I'd been offered, and would leave me better off after her cut, which was indeed the case.

When I decided to try my hand at fiction, I queried 11/9 with five agents, one asked for the full MS, made an offer the next day and I signed on with her. She had some big-name authors, so it looked like I just needed to wait for the money to roll in. More than a year later, she'd shown it to exactly three publishers!

Lesson learned: agents with big-name clients don't have to be any good at pitching.

I then attended a talk by two authors who'd moved from traditional publishing to self-publishing, and explained why. I thought their arguments were good, so I decided to go that route. 11/9 fairly quickly made more than I would have been offered as an advance, so I felt confident that was the right decision.

Ben


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## AndrewSeiple (Jan 3, 2016)

Yep. Not for long, though. Only spent about three months trying for agents and selected presses before I got tired of it.

It was time I had to spend polishing so it wasn't wasted, but it sure felt like it. That sort of gambling? Not for me.


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## JamesOsiris (Mar 23, 2014)

I racked up about 60 agent and publisher rejections before I gave up. I had many full manuscript requests (upwards of ten) and even got contacted by my top agent pick, but inevitably got the same feedback: "It's great, but no one wants to read about wizards and gangsters."

Another problem I encountered was entrenched homophobia and transphobia. This makes anything that's not a 'niche' literary gay tragedy or a gay (and by that, they mean M/M) romance an extremely hard sell. Even though the SFF community is calling out for non-sexualized LGBTI protagonists, villains and love interests in their stories for many years now, this call has not been heeded by most publishing professionals.

I'm now essentially disinterested in going trad. Not only did I have contact with a lot of very rude, unprofessional people in the publishing industry while querying, I have several friends who have struggled with contracts and who are in the marketing trenches with the rest of us despite being published by large publishers.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

Yes, I sought the traditional route first like many here. My first attempt was back in 1995.   But I was pretty young and impatient, so after about a year's worth of trying I gave up. Visiting the moon one day seemed more feasible than ever getting published, and I saw my grandfather get rejected for years even after he'd published numerous titles in our native country of Panama. So I figured, if a hard working and talented author like him could have a hard time, then what was the chance that I'd ever break in? And back in those days, self-publishing was more trouble than it was worth. My grandpa also self-published one of his books and ended up selling one copy to a friend of his. 

So yeah, needless to say that I gave up on writing altogether. Shouldn't have, but I did. Publishing was all I ever wanted and I wrote a bit here and there, but not like I used to. Years later, many many of them, a little game called Skyrim reignited my love and passion for writing. It started out with a tiny bit of fan fic, then I made a fantasy world of my own and didn't stop writing because this time, there was Amazon. Five years later here I am, having worked hard on my craft and now ready to do this forever. Would I ever query again? Hell to the no. If an opportunity came along then I'd have to think about it but it still feels like a pretty huge long shot. In earnest, I don't blame traditional publishing for me giving up on writing all those years. I should've kept trying. But it certainly makes being heard more difficult and I think that's ridiculous. Anyway, I think everything works for a reason so maybe getting rejected wasn't so bad after all.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Vintage Mari said:


> Yes, I sought the traditional route first like many here. My first attempt was back in 1995.  But I was pretty young and impatient, so after about a year's worth of trying I gave up. Visiting the moon one day seemed more feasible than ever getting published, and I saw my grandfather get rejected for years even after he'd published numerous titles in our native country of Panama. So I figured, if a hard working and talented author like him could have a hard time, then what was the chance that I'd ever break in? And back in those days, self-publishing was more trouble than it was worth. My grandpa also self-published one of his books and ended up selling one copy to a friend of his.
> 
> So yeah, needless to say that I gave up on writing altogether. Shouldn't have, but I did. Publishing was all I ever wanted and I wrote a bit here and there, but not like I used to. Years later, many many of them, a little game called Skyrim reignited my love and passion for writing. It started out with a tiny bit of fan fic, then I made a fantasy world of my own and didn't stop writing because this time, there was Amazon. Five years later here I am, having worked hard on my craft and now ready to do this forever. Would I ever query again? Hell to the no. If an opportunity came along then I'd have to think about it but it still feels like a pretty huge long shot. In earnest, I don't blame traditional publishing for me giving up on writing all those years. I should've kept trying. But it certainly makes being heard more difficult and I think that's ridiculous. Anyway, I think everything works for a reason so maybe getting rejected wasn't so bad after all.


It is definitely a different world in publishing now. Instead of all the queries, authors need to focus a bit of their attention in marketing. But what I like is having more control over my work and not worrying about money spent for postage or the long wait for replies. Thanks for sharing and best of luck in your writing endeavors!


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## harpwriter (Sep 28, 2010)

Under the advice of a fellow author about how much publishing--both indie and traditional--were changing at the time, I did not seek traditional publishing.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

harpwriter said:


> Under the advice of a fellow author about how much publishing--both indie and traditional--were changing at the time, I did not seek traditional publishing.


For me, the long waits for answers to queries was a great burden. With e-queries, one would think the process would be faster. However, a lot of agents simply do not reply. No answer = not interested, but in some respects, that seems a bit unprofessional. How are we to know if our query went to spam or vanished into the unknown? I understand how their inboxes are flooded by thousands of queries and that is overwhelming.


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## J E Purrazzi (Jun 21, 2016)

I'm not published yet. I have nearly 3 complete novels on track to be published next year July...if all pans out. Right now I am in the process of rewriting and raising money with my art. Hopefully. As such I am not sure I qualify, but I will say from a Newbie's perspective that I only ever considered  traditional publishing for my fantasy trilogy.  That is because I wanted the weight of a good publisher behind it more than I wanted money, but I have since changed my mind on that.

I've been listening to the "Rocking Self Publishing" podcast (excellent by the way, I highly recommend it) among others and the more I learn the more I lean towards Self Publishing. I am trying to get out of a 55+ hr a week Nannying job. I love the family, I am just getting burned out. Beyond that, I am hoping to be able to pave the way to be a work-at-home mother if I am ever able to conceive so it is important to me that my writing be more than just the exhausting but enjoyable distraction it is now. Traditional publishing just doesn't seem like it would provide that.


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## Scatterdown (May 3, 2015)

I'm currently NY agented with my suspense novel (which we'll submit once I get the edits done), but I've decided to self publish my fantasy series.

For one, my agent doesn't rep SF or weird high fantasy, and I've been on the publication submission roundabout with it when I had a former agent last year (I quit her and started querying again with a different genre.)

Once you can climb out of the Dunnings Kreuger Syndrome and can be certain you're a decent enough writer, and submit to the right agent for your genre, the agent thing can be quite fine to overcome. The wait for agent and publisher is the same wait as it is for your self published book series to build up the momentum and reviews to get a Bookbub and other Amazon algo stuff, so in effect the "time" factor is the same either way. Having previously self published myself, a launch as a newbie can be very lonely, while with trad publishing so many others are involved and invested.

If I could trad pub my fantasy trilogy I would, but I know enough about what agents and markets want to know that it will not happen.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

J E Purrazzi said:


> I'm not published yet. I have nearly 3 complete novels on track to be published next year July...if all pans out. Right now I am in the process of rewriting and raising money with my art. Hopefully. As such I am not sure I qualify, but I will say from a Newbie's perspective that I only ever considered traditional publishing for my fantasy trilogy. That is because I wanted the weight of a good publisher behind it more than I wanted money, but I have since changed my mind on that.
> 
> I've been listening to the "Rocking Self Publishing" podcast (excellent by the way, I highly recommend it) among others and the more I learn the more I lean towards Self Publishing. I am trying to get out of a 55+ hr a week Nannying job. I love the family, I am just getting burned out. Beyond that, I am hoping to be able to pave the way to be a work-at-home mother if I am ever able to conceive so it is important to me that my writing be more than just the exhausting but enjoyable distraction it is now. Traditional publishing just doesn't seem like it would provide that.


 The podcast sounds like a great one. Thanks for sharing that. I will have to check it out. There are some publishers in the fantasy genre who don't require agents. TOR is one. I know there are others. Good luck to you and may you find your niche where you're not having to spend too much time working when your heart is into writing.

Good


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

In the years I've been on kboards, there always seems to be an ebb and flow about using agents.


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## ancaiovita (Feb 13, 2016)

Nope, I never sought them. Life is too short for that. 
Besides, English is not my native tongue and nobody would have given me a chance. 
I considered it's much better to learn the craft any way I can and write the books I wanted to read in the meanwhile.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Scatterdown said:


> I'm currently NY agented with my suspense novel (which we'll submit once I get the edits done), but I've decided to self publish my fantasy series.
> 
> For one, my agent doesn't rep SF or weird high fantasy, and I've been on the publication submission roundabout with it when I had a former agent last year (I quit her and started querying again with a different genre.)
> 
> ...


Self pub isn't necessarily slower to success. It can be incredibly fast. I earned "advance money" my first month and had my first BookBub after 4 months. That can happen also.

For me, I had a first book in a series that kept getting turned down. In the few months I queried, I'd finished two more books. I realized that even if an agent eventually wanted me, it could be a couple years before the book was published. Then if it wasn't successful, I'd have all these other books written in the series--at the rate I was going, it would have been 8 books by then--but Book 1 would have been tied up.

Instead, I self published, and I made $5k (the typical first romance novel advance) the first month, so it turned out to be a good decision. No delays and no barriers.

I'm also happy to have had some trad pub deals as well. I think hybrid makes a lot of sense now. I would like sometime to get a NY Pub deal just to have the paperbacks and so forth also, and to see what those would do.


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## Moticom (Jun 29, 2016)

I will eventually try traditional agents/publishers, but I've read far too much bad press about them to go there straight away. I want to do it alone for now and see where I get, and then maybe use that to help me perhaps. We'll see. At least if I get some positive reviews first then when I get rejected from every agent/publisher going I might not feel quite so bad...


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Self pub isn't necessarily slower to success. It can be incredibly fast. I earned "advance money" my first month and had my first BookBub after 4 months. That can happen also.
> 
> For me, I had a first book in a series that kept getting turned down. In the few months I queried, I'd finished two more books. I realized that even if an agent eventually wanted me, it could be a couple years before the book was published. Then if it wasn't successful, I'd have all these other books written in the series--at the rate I was going, it would have been 8 books by then--but Book 1 would have been tied up.
> 
> ...


 Congrats on your success! Keep up the great work!


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

My game plan, such as it is, is to generate a respectable back list of self-published and small press work, to cut my teeth, before submitting a traditional novel proposal to agents.

To be honest, it's all going pretty much as planned in that I've established a small but loyal fanbase, the first smatterings of a social media platform, and the respect and friendship of my peers in the trad writing world.

It's just taking a lot longer than I'd hoped, because I'm really quite a slow writer, and I have a full-time job and a daft dog to entertain.


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