# KU vs Wide - Great article by David Gaughran



## antcurious (Jun 2, 2017)

This question comes up all the time, maybe (I'm too new to know) even more frequently in recent months. Here is David's take on it:

https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2017/10/23/a-tale-of-two-marketing-systems/


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

This is a great article.

I'd recently seen some anecdotal evidence that authors who are all-in in KU see little benefit of a mailing list.

Being all-wide, the mailing list is my primary form of advertising. I only buy ads when I can get a Bookbub and everything else I spend goes towards list building.

I would even go as far as saying that not only does wide vs KU require different marketing tactics, they are two almost entirely separate markets of readers.

I cringe when people advocate that new writers "launch in KU and then take books wide". You know what happens when you leave KU? You lose a really big percentage of your readers. That's OK if you have multiple series, but we can't all be Lindsay Buroker and I know for one that if I tried the tiniest little book in KU, my subscribers will send me proverbial death threats.

My list is my life blood. KU readers get their books from KU and less often from lists.

As double whammy for the author, not only does KU prevent you from securing your reader base by spreading it over multiple retailers, it actively discourages you from taking control of those readers.


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## Rick Partlow (Sep 6, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> As double whammy for the author, not only does KU prevent you from securing your reader base by spreading it over multiple retailers, it actively discourages you from taking control of those readers.


The other way to look at that where one isn't insistent on making it a negative, is that KU allows you to make a living as more of a writer and less of a marketer.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Rick Partlow said:


> The other way to look at that where one isn't insistent on making it a negative, is that KU allows you to make a living as more of a writer and less of a marketer.


That's not what David says, and not my experience form being in KU. KU requires more precise, high-octane marketing.


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## ExtraT (May 20, 2017)

Patty Jansen said:


> This is a great article.
> 
> I'd recently seen some anecdotal evidence that authors who are all-in in KU see little benefit of a mailing list.
> 
> ...


This thread is now essential reading for me...! I have two books, one finishing its editing cycle, the other just beginning. When it's all said and done, I have to choose between KU and wide. Ias a new author, I don't have a mailing list so I've been wrestling with this dilemma recently.

I had thought about going KU for three months and then going wide; while building my mailing list simultaneously... but I think this thread will give me some serious food for thought...


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## antcurious (Jun 2, 2017)

ExtraT said:


> This thread is now essential reading for me...! I have two books, one finishing its editing cycle, the other just beginning. When it's all said and done, I have to choose between KU and wide. Ias a new author, I don't have a mailing list so I've been wrestling with this dilemma recently.
> 
> I had thought about going KU for three months and then going wide; while building my mailing list simultaneously... but I think this thread will give me some serious food for thought...


I think the consensus was - and I'm in the same boat as you apart from a small list - to go three months with KU and then wide if there is no traction, but Patty is making me think twice


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

There is little harm in going in for a few months with a few books, as long as you realise that as soon as you go wide, you'll throw a really sizeable chunk of your audience out. It might still be working for your aims. But know what those aims are before you start.

Questions for example:
Do you want to quickly earn back the cost of the production of the book? Yes = try KU
Do you live in the US and/or is your book geared towards US readers? Yes = go in KU
Do you want to build a loyal reader base who will buy all your books? Yes = go wide
Do you expect your books will have international appeal? Yes = go wide

There is nothing wrong with experimenting as long as you know what the consequences are.


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## Rick Partlow (Sep 6, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> That's not what David says, and not my experience form being in KU. KU requires more precise, high-octane marketing.


Well, I have my own experiences to draw from, and they aren't consistent with yours. I have not targeted KU with precise marketing, yet KU page reads are consistently two thirds of my monthly income.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I did KU 1.0 for 6 months back in 2014, so I am someone who relaunched my career off a springboard of KU then went wide once my catalog was large enough (6 titles, 1 a novel). But was it really a springboard? I don't know as one of the reasons I got out was because the more books I put in the program, the less and less I made. It was early days and a completely different program.

I like redundant systems. I like multiple streams of income. That's a big cornerstone of my "I want to still be here in 25 years," plan. Maybe I am giving up a huge windfall by being so long-sighted, but my data and other tests for shows in my genre KU absolutely cannibalize sales. And if you are writing in a genre where a sale = more than a full page read, it's silly for me to be in KU. Conversely, if I was in a genre where I HAD to price low or that was my strategy, then page reads could make sense as an income stream IF I personally could get over the 100% relying on Amazon.

I think the theme for 2018 though is going to be whichever you choose, KU or wide, you better bring your A+ game. Because I'm seeing people drop out of the market left and right, including authors who've been here since 2009/2010, because they are pursuing other avenues of income. Maybe it's burn out, maybe they are bored, or maybe it just got to be too much adapting year in and year out. 

HAVE A PLAN. So you can execute it and gauge results. Don't rely on the vendors to do everything for you, KU or wide. Because your competition isn't going to.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

It was an interesting article, but I'm surprised he didn't mention AMS (for KU) or Pronoun (for easily making books free and getting 70% payout on 99 cent deals on wide books).


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## It&#039;s A Mystery (Mar 14, 2017)

Great article.

So are people using Pronoun for their first in series and then going direct for the rest?


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'd recently seen some anecdotal evidence that authors who are all-in in KU see little benefit of a mailing list.


I have a different perspective:

It's _doubly_ important to have a mailing list if an author is going to be exclusive to Amazon.

Amazon could make changes that negatively impact an indie publisher's visibility, similar to Facebook's changes that reduce organic reach. A mailing list gives the author control over his audience. This is the main reason I've always advocated making the mailing list a top priority.

Also, while Amazon gives _some_ books marketing love (recommendation emails, Daily Deals, Prime Reading, etc.), it's sporadic and unpredictable. By contrast, the last time I mailed my list, I pushed a book into the mid 400s.

I favor that kind of predictability.

Moreover, I suspect a lot of Amazon's marketing love stems from evidence of sales. I use my list (and AMS) to keep my books selling, and Amazon takes notice and shows affection. The former begets the latter.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> There is little harm in going in for a few months with a few books, as long as you realise that as soon as you go wide, you'll throw a really sizeable chunk of your audience out. It might still be working for your aims. But know what those aims are before you start.
> 
> Questions for example:
> Do you want to quickly earn back the cost of the production of the book? Yes = try KU
> ...


I'd add "Are you a prawn?" to the questions to be answered.

Plenty of people do well by going wide--but the ones I can identify or am already familiar with seem to have large fan bases and, if they were in KU, already had a good following before making the jump.

I tried wide twice, for several months in both cases, and I got crickets on the other venues. When I tried promotions targeted at one or more of the other venues, I got no sales. When I tried promotions targeted everywhere, all my sales were on Amazon. Even with all the wackiness in KU, I make more in a bad month than I made in a year wide. Even the international angle didn't make a difference. For instance, what few sales I got on Google Play were all US sales.

That's too bad, actually, because with KU in such a mess it would be nice to go wide. (I have two dreams--one that Amazon will fix KU, or at least minimize the problems, the other that Amazon will drop the exclusivity requirement. I know, fat chance! I said they were dreams...)

Now that I think of it, another good question would be, "Are you trying to make writing your primary income?" I'm not sure if either answer would lead automatically to KU or wide, but the answer does definitely make a difference in terms of how high the stakes are. As a prawn with a good income from other sources, I don't have to worry as much about the long-term implication of my choices. Sure, I'd love it if my books really took off, and I try my best to do a professional job on them, but I'd be all right financially even if self-publishing vanished tomorrow. Something like being dependent on one retailer would worry me a lot more if I were dependent on my income from book sales. I'd weigh a lot of things differently in that scenario. I confess that right now, I'm looking at reaching the largest audience I can. Half my readers are in KU. Past experience shows me that, at least in the short term, I could only replace about 10% of that audience with wide readers. No one trying to make a living at writing could focus so narrowly on that one variable, though. If I were in that situation, I'd almost certainly start my next new series wide and try a split model, with at least one series in KU and at least one wide. As it is, I'm still going back and forth on where to put my new series.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

I think we're almost approaching a period where instead of KU vs. Wide it should be KU vs. Direct.

I say this because it's a genuine consideration that even if you are NOT going wide, you may still choose direct on amazon versus direct + KU on amazon.

If you believe that KU cannibalizes you (whether that be on sales or on price power / margins) then just on zon alone it's a questionable choice once you reach a certain point in your career.

To me the other vendors are just gravy on my decision to go *direct*. They enable permafree (which I don't use now, but did and might again), they offer some revenue (which for me offset my KU revenues), they don't interfer with pricing high, etc.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'd recently seen some anecdotal evidence that authors who are all-in in KU see little benefit of a mailing list.


I still have a small mailing list, though I'm trying to build it. One thing about it is that I've built it entirely organically. The one benefit I can quantify is pre-orders. I've had three very successful launches due to large pre-orders coming from my list.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

A.G.B said:


> So are people using Pronoun for their first in series and then going direct for the rest?


There are still reasons not to use Pronoun such as lack of access to AMS ads and the fact that they're Pronoun and trade pub affiliated. But two of the issues he mentions related to being wide, lack of predictability for setting a title to free and receiving less than 70% on 99 cents runs, can be fixed by using Pronoun. If you care about having a series listing on your Amazon page, though, you need all the books in a series through one or the other.


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## amdonehere (May 1, 2015)

Bill H, always the voice to wisdom. I totally agree with everything you said.

I've been toying with the thought of going wide when my next series is out. My genre doesn't do well in KU anyway and I suspect KU does cannibalize my sales. But David's article is scaring me about wide. The work it takes to be successful wide is so overwhelming.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Seneca42 said:


> I think we're almost approaching a period where instead of KU vs. Wide it should be KU vs. Direct.


Absolutely. Even if an author refuses to go wide, they should experiment with being direct-only.

Thus, 3 choices. It's a bit tiring to see the assumption that if you aren't wide, then you need to be in KU.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

A.G.B said:


> Great article.
> 
> So are people using Pronoun for their first in series and then going direct for the rest?


I wouldn't use Pronoun until they sort out their reporting issues with Amazon. Up to you, though. Adding a middleman between my books and Amazon doesn't fit what I want to do. Each writer's MMV.


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## Justa Nobody (Mar 25, 2016)

Removed 9/19/2018 - non-agreement with VerticalScope TOS


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I love it when an article shows up at exactly the time I need the information.

I'm in an odd situation right now. It's a GOOD odd situation, but it's odd anyway. I did really well with a wide-appeal standalone book for my first self-published full length novel, so well that sales from that book carried me through 2016 until i was able to get the rights to my other novels back and re-release them, in the third quarter of 2016. In 2017, I'm living off bookbub promos and Audible promotions, neither of which I have much control over... and I'm wide, and I have almost no mailing list to speak of.

The problem going forward is I can't rely on any of those things sustaining. i certainly can't rely on an evergreen standalone carrying my sales forever. I can write new books (like a sequel to it, and more books in my series) but what I really need is that mailing list.

It's a really good situation to be in, to be honest. I'm doing it all backwards: success first, mailing list second. But the mailing list has to happen in order to sustain that success.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

I thought this was a fantastic article too. It helped me to see a few ways I've been marketing wide wrong, even though I know the other retailers aren't Amazon. It also reminded me of some marketing I'd stopped doing but really need to start again. I'm inspired to get to work!


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Thank you for this article! I'm off to read it right now!

As an aside, I spent most of this year in KU until I pulled out just a few days ago. At the early part of summer I did good but things really dropped for me even after 2 new releases. My graphs only stirred back to life if I ran free promos. Otherwise, I wasn't selling or getting reads. So I put my books wide. I woke up this morning to check D2D and noticed that I'd already sold 7 books (3 of one title, 4 of another) literally overnight. I still can't figure out which platform I sold those on since everything with D2D is still new to me. Also saw that I'd gotten 5 free downloads of another title on Kobo. My husband said this morning that it was a good thing I spread my wings. All I know is that I feel liberated to finally be able to sell my books elsewhere and find readers elsewhere.


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## Travelian (Jun 1, 2017)

Terrific article. Thanks for posting, Antcurious.


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## ibizwiz (Dec 25, 2014)

Seneca42 said:


> I think we're almost approaching a period where instead of KU vs. Wide it should be KU vs. Direct.
> 
> I say this because it's a genuine consideration that even if you are NOT going wide, you may still choose direct on Amazon versus direct + KU on Amazon.


If by Direct you mean not in KDP Select, but not necessarily taking full advantage (for whatever reasons) of "wide" distribution, *you raise a very good point, IMO*. My medium-term distribution strategy is the same as yours, I'd guess. In addition to your own good points, I reached this conclusion from these considerations:

OOPS wrong key, LOL

Continuing:

1 Only one of my four targeted reader audiences are likely to be heavy KU subbies
2 My unique genre won't appeal to Romance, Thriller, Para-whomever, SciFi, Fantasy, Mystery, or any of the "nice" genre readers
3 I need to build a site, community, and list that can withstand either Amazon's perfidy OR "wide" sites failure to perform
4 I need much more control over pricing than Select allows
5 I need to be able to sell "direct" without violating Amazon's TOS

David Gaughran's article is mandatory reading, along with its sister articles on his blog. Thank You, David!


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

AlexaKang said:


> Bill H, always the voice to wisdom. I totally agree with everything you said.
> 
> I've been toying with the thought of going wide when my next series is out. My genre doesn't do well in KU anyway and I suspect KU does cannibalize my sales. But David's article is scaring me about wide. *The work it takes to be successful wide is so overwhelming.*


Not if we team up with our wartime novels, Alexa. The beauty of being able to sell on other retailers is there are more creative ways of getting readers. I felt stifled with KU. Don't be afraid! It's a long-term game anyway.


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## AliceS (Dec 28, 2014)

David's lists of marketing are overwhelming. I've got a lot to learn.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

AliceS said:


> David's lists of marketing are overwhelming. I've got a lot to learn.


Don't feel bad. I took two days to read this article, and I've been doing this full time for close to three years. He put a lot of info into it!


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

AliceS said:


> David's lists of marketing are overwhelming. I've got a lot to learn.


I'm currently intimidating myself by reading BookFunnel's FAQ. Right there with you.


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## LindsayBuroker (Oct 13, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> I cringe when people advocate that new writers "launch in KU and then take books wide". You know what happens when you leave KU? You lose a really big percentage of your readers.


When you take a series out of KU after six months or whatever, your loyal readers there already read it, so you're not losing anyone, right? You launch the next series into KU too (if things remain as they are now), and the cycle continues. The KU subscribers get their chance to read it, and then everybody else does too.

And yes, I think that's ass-backwards.  I'm mulling over things like doing a week-long pre-launch on my own website or sending out ARCs to Patreon subscribers ahead of the KU launch, so those on other stores have their chance to get the books first. (It's way too much of a hassle to load books to the other stores for a week and then yank them down, especially since it can take a while for things to come down everywhere.)

But, back to your regularly scheduled thread...


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

LindsayBuroker said:


> When you take a series out of KU after six months or whatever, your loyal readers there already read it, so you're not losing anyone, right? You launch the next series into KU too (if things remain as they are now), and the cycle continues. The KU subscribers get their chance to read it, and then everybody else does too.


Lindsay, what kind of promotion do you do when you take a series wide? How do you let readers on the other platforms know you're there?


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Some of this is right on. Some not so much. I'm in KU and my mailing list is a very important tool. I can count on launching into the top 100 no matter my price point (in fact, I didn't see much of a difference in rank and first day sales with a .99 launch). I put a lot of effort into my list, though not as much as some.

Amazon is not new release focused. That is true. There best way to promote your backlists is with a sample in a new release. It used to be that CPC ads could make your backlists boom, but that is no longer my experience on Amazon.

Whether you're in KU or wide, it's important not to get into a set it and forget it mindset. Strategies are always changing. You need to be aware of them. If you aren't growing, you're shrinking.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Lynna said:


> You just don't know what a book is going to do wide or in KU until you try. It's not a good idea to assume KU is going to be the best option. This was a paranormal romance, by the way, what is supposedly one of the highly read genres in KU.
> 
> Unless you're going to market and do it pretty heavily (I'm basing that on *other* people's experiences not mine, because as I said, I don't do that), KU is not always the best option for a "new" author.
> 
> (I was the same as new because I didn't promote this to my other pen name. Genres are too disparate.)


I couldn't agree more. Though I do think it's true that succeeding wide is easier with a larger base, there are always exceptions, as there are to virtually any generalization about self-publishing. There are so many variables involved, some of which we can't readily measure. Experimentation is the only way to be sure.

The marketing point is also sound, though it appears any course of action normally requires pretty heavy marketing. As David's article points out, the style of advertising may differ depending on where an author is marketing, though.


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## ibizwiz (Dec 25, 2014)

LindsayBuroker said:


> When you take a series out of KU after six months or whatever, your loyal readers there already read it, so you're not losing anyone, right? You launch the next series into KU too (if things remain as they are now), and the cycle continues. The KU subscribers get their chance to read it, and then everybody else does too.


Lindsay, thanks for the Patreon idea! Brilliant!

Actually, your general approach is the one I'm leaning to now with our "virgin" launch, with a few twists:
1 Launch a new, *branded* website
2 Same day, release a steamed heat 40K long novella FREE -- put it wide via Pronoun, Kobo, etc
3 Over following 8 weeks, use all available legit tools to add to our 2k list
4 Midway, start a four-week pre-order Amazon campaign for all three novels, at a 33% price discount
5 About two weeks before the pre-order date, publish the three-novel boxed set in Amazon (NOT select) with a price of 7.99 (down from the regular price of 9.99) -- Yes, some pre-order folks may cancel their pre and buy the discounted box - great!
6 Start an FB and AMS campaign offering the boxed set at 6.99 for the full week BEFORE the official release date of the novels
7 Four days before the "official" launch date send out a newsletter announcing our special thanks and the chance to buy the boxed set of three full novels for just 4.99 on the last three days before the "official" launch date (Yes, some of the "late" ad-clickers from the earlier ads will get a "surprise" extra two buck discount -- fine with me!)
8 Keep the prequel "wide" when the novels are released in Amazon; keep them out of Select, too, for at least a week, but I'm flexible
9 During this temporary "sorta" wide period, push the first novel at a special discount price of 3.99 (vs 5.99 regular) using FB and AMS ads
10 Put the novels and box into Select all on the same day (to enable a one-day pull-out at the end of the 90-day cycles)
11 Keep the prequel out of Select, and use it to keep adding to the list
12 Launch the first of three follow-on novellas appx a month into the initial Select period -- deciding then whether to stay wide with it or put it in Select -- leaning toward former.

Note: The initial launch-all-at-once trilogy is the stalking horse for a number of three-title series sharing characters and a common ongoing story arc.

This plan gives me the chance to use the follow-on titles to build the wide base, while giving me the option to decide every 90 days whether to pull the original trilogy out of Select. Long term, I want to be wide, but if KU is performing, I well might put another three-title set into KU, too, for the first 180-360 days.

One differentiating aspect of this approach: we plan to make the family "brand name" easy to find online. This positions us best vis-a-vis the search platforms and community sites. It also will allow me to engage other writers who tell "realistic erotic" stories since their titles will be launching in a proven, established micro-audience who are readers of the other brand-identified books.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

My enrollment in KU ends next week for my books and I'm off to go wide.  Seeing as I barely see anything on Select I'm off wide. I won't miss Select at all due to the lack of traction there.  I like the idea of being wide.  I'm sure it will be a slow process but I'm feeling good about it.


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> There is little harm in going in for a few months with a few books, as long as you realise that as soon as you go wide, you'll throw a really sizeable chunk of your audience out. It might still be working for your aims. But know what those aims are before you start.
> 
> Questions for example:
> Do you want to quickly earn back the cost of the production of the book? Yes = try KU
> ...


I thought you were stomping all over my carefully laid plans...but you've clarified it now to true totally murky confusion 

I live in the US, my readers are about 1/2 and 1/2 US vs outside the US with particularly strong readership in the greater UK--so my books aren't exactly geared toward US readers. 
I, of course, want to build a large and loyal following and am already working toward that--even with just my 3 short stories and my novelette, I've built a mailing list of just under 2000. My newsletters get strong open and click-thru rates.
My first novel in my first trilogy releases in December. The second should be in February. The third in April

My short stories and novella have seen more sales than KU reads...but I have yet to try a novel on the platform, so I'm not really sure if it's KU or if it's how most of my readers read.

My one story which is wide--and also my freebie for newsletter sign-ups--was released through Pronoun. Oddly it, even though it's free on my website, and sometimes in multi-author offers, it still sells a couple copies every month...but only on Amazon, it's never sold in any of the other markets. This is a tiny tiny sample size--but concerns me a bit. It's never been advertised anywhere outside of where you can get it for free. I have no idea what to make of that.

I have about a month to decide how I'm going to launch.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> Do you want to build a loyal reader base who will buy all your books? Yes = go wide
> Do you expect your books will have international appeal? Yes = go wide


This is the conclusion I came to back in Aug/September when I clicked off the auto-enroll button in select. My books are British English, they feature Brits with Americans (or my upcoming ones have a British feel to them), and I feel that trying to get international eyes on my books with amazon is difficult (at least if my book report is accurate!). So this is another tick for me.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

evdarcy said:


> This is the conclusion I came to back in Aug/September when I clicked off the auto-enroll button in select. My books are British English, they feature Brits with Americans (or my upcoming ones have a British feel to them), and I feel that trying to get international eyes on my books with amazon is difficult (at least if my book report is accurate!). So this is another tick for me.


I sell plenty of books in the UK and Australia in s
Select. The US is still 80% of my sales, but I've consistently done well in the UK for a long time (with UK All Star bonuses most months).


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Crystal_ said:


> I sell plenty of books in the UK and Australia in s
> Select. The US is still 80% of my sales, but I've consistently done well in the UK for a long time (with UK All Star bonuses most months).


The last Author Earning Report (which, granted, is now several months older), actually suggested the Amazon share of the UK market was slightly higher than the US share. (83% vs. 86%). Australia and Canada were much lower, about 60% each for Amazon, but growing.

Even in the US, that 17% or so of the market that isn't Amazon still amounts to a lot of readers. The trick is accessing them.


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## ibizwiz (Dec 25, 2014)

Dale Ivan Smith said:


> Another great post by David. One thing he didn't discuss which I've wondered about: what I've dubbed the "Netflix drop," vs. steady release (a book every 3 months or so) in the consideration of KU vs wide marketplaces.
> 
> The "Netflix drop" is where KU authors will save up books in a new series to fast launch them in a very short time frame (say 2 months for 3 titles).


Actually, the "release all at once" idea is generally credited to Liliana Nirvana. (Netflix is, if anything, an imitator.) See Hugh Howey's summary of the technique.
http://www.hughhowey.com/the-liliana-nirvana-technique/

This is where I got the idea for my upcoming launch. I changed from five titles to three novels on the same day. But added what I hope to be a key enhancement: releasing a meaty prequel about 8 weeks before the triple release day. The trilogy is a true read-in-order series, but the prequel is a *standalone* 40K story that features the MFC and a number of the key supporting characters. It is not necessary to read the prequel first to enjoy the full three-novel main story.

The idea is we have a high-value gift to help us build pre-launch buzz and add mailing list subscribers before the "official" trilogy release date.

Per the Liliana "formula", we'll follow this triple launch a month after with a (story-extending) book. But we're going to add two more books in the following two months. That would give us a second three-title set. Then if we can stay on schedule, we'll add another stand-alone prequel, then do the next triple title release by the end of September, with another title a month later. We'll get two "pure" tests of the concept, in other words.

In addition to an extended pre-promotion period, thanks to the prequel and the opportunity to attract significant pre-orders, a main advantage (to me) of the technique is to demonstrate to readers they can try us without worrying if we'll complete the trilogy. Another is to pull them into a world and story-arc that will see characters they know having new adventures as the brand family grows. These add-on triple title editions will each be self-sufficient, meaning a latecomer to our party can start at the "back" and then go check out the "front".

I understand the seeming stupidity of "holding back a finished work". I went through the conventional rush to publish six titles as they were finished. And got zilch for my efforts. The choice became obvious that only with a launch campaign that rolled out with confidence could I persuade enough readers to try us with confidence. Holding back becomes the best way of moving forward.

Unless it doesn't.  We shall see...


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

LindsayBuroker said:


> When you take a series out of KU after six months or whatever, your loyal readers there already read it, so you're not losing anyone, right? You launch the next series into KU too (if things remain as they are now), and the cycle continues. The KU subscribers get their chance to read it, and then everybody else does too.
> 
> And yes, I think that's ass-backwards.  I'm mulling over things like doing a week-long pre-launch on my own website or sending out ARCs to Patreon subscribers ahead of the KU launch, so those on other stores have their chance to get the books first. (It's way too much of a hassle to load books to the other stores for a week and then yank them down, especially since it can take a while for things to come down everywhere.)
> 
> But, back to your regularly scheduled thread...


In theory, this would work, but in practice, people have different reading speeds. Sure, they can get all the books from KU and can still read them, but they have only ten slots. If they are slow-ish readers, would they keep those slots for your books? I don't know.

All I know is that you're bound to get annoyed emails when they're looking for the next book to buy/borrow and they can't get it in their preferred way.

IMO once you start dictating how and when and where people can read, you've lost the plot.

So in my case, there will be no daft emails going out to my readers telling them to "If you're in KU, get all the books now, because I will un-enroll them in three months' time", because readers will miss it. They will not open an email. They will forget. They will have full subscription slots and who am I to tell them what they should have in their TBR queue.

I release wide. I use my list. I have no time for extensive finagling of FB/AMS/rented lists ads or to play the KU flop-flop roulette.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

Vicky said:


> I think I saw your books were wide at the beginning of the year. Why did you go back to KU?


Simple answer, time. I didn't have the time to learn the wide way. I literally threw it out for a month or so planning on doing it and then we bought the house, renovated it, the day job went nutso again. Everything got waylaid, so I popped back into KU while I sorted out life so I could to the author thing properly. 
I've finally cut my hours down in the day job so I can focus on writing and learning all the stuff that I need to promote it and make a living from it. I also took time to evaluate what I want from writing and so on.

ETA: Blimey what a busy year - I can't believe it's nearing the end of October! It's gone by so fast!


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

P.J. Post said:


> Please answer as though I were a golden retriever. Thanks.


WOOF! WOOF! WOOF!


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> I think we're almost approaching a period where instead of KU vs. Wide it should be KU vs. Direct.
> 
> I say this because it's a genuine consideration that even if you are NOT going wide, you may still choose direct on amazon versus direct + KU on amazon.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but what are the advantages of being on Amazon but not being in Select and not going wide as well?

For example, I make nothing on any of the wide stores (except GP) so I'd personally be happy to be exclusive to Amazon, but page reads were murder on my sales income because my books are short. So being in KU was terrible for me.

Is there any advantage at all of being exclusive to Amazon but not in KU? And if you are not in KU then surely you might as well be wide and get what little extra there is out there?


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

I had exactly one customer complain via review that my books were not in KU when they used to be. Even then, the KU grumper bought my other books direct.

I really don't think we're attributing realistic buying patterns to those who use KU. Is every single KU subscriber anti-author hate-purchase zombies to the subscription plan? I think we're being a little stereotypical here on KB assuming so.

My editor had been a member of KU and also bought titles direct. I fail to see some massive barrier stopping KU subscribers from buying books.


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## Awasin (Aug 7, 2015)

One thing I never see mentioned on this topic is this: if you write books that readers gobble up, KU will likely serve you well.  If, OTOH, you can sell books but people never quite get around to finishing them, KU is like a good beating.

Readers go through my fiction at an unbelievable pace so I'm sticking with KU for it.  But my nonfiction makes absolutely no sense in KU because people buy it (or borrow it) and rarely get around to reading it.  Even big fans can take weeks to finish it.

IOW if readers are expecting, I dunno, say GoT, and that's not what your selling then KU may well and truly suck.  

But if you're giving the rascals what they want it's like pushing against an open door.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Laran Mithras said:


> I had exactly one customer complain via review that my books were not in KU when they used to be. Even then, the KU grumper bought my other books direct.
> 
> I really don't think we're attributing realistic buying patterns to those who use KU. Is every single KU subscriber anti-author hate-purchase zombies to the subscription plan? I think we're being a little stereotypical here on KB assuming so.
> 
> My editor had been a member of KU and also bought titles direct. I fail to see some massive barrier stopping KU subscribers from buying books.


It's called money.

For every email grumper, there are 100 who just wander off and don't come back.

I don't think the influence of people not being able to buy how and where they want can be underestimated. They're got to *really* want it (probably because they're already fans). If not, meh, there are always a million other authors.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

I guess what it comes down for me is that I'm not a fast paced author. The way Mr. Gaughran describes the drip drip of wide is more suitable to the way I write and publish. Suppose that's point 1 for me. Point 2 is that I rather have readers want to purchase my work instead of download it off KU just because it's there. I want to ultimately have fans who appreciate my work. I just didn't find that in KU. There are a number of other issues I had with it. 

What I'd appreciate more of here is seeing wide authors discuss how they grew audiences at other retailers. I've read a few of the older threads here but the tactics mentioned in the article were a really good place to begin. I feel like a lot of the discussions on this board center around KU.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Genre is a huge part of any decision.  I was wide for four years, but in my genre, you're buried on Amazon by piles of other authors getting thousands of purchase equivalents in page reads.  That may not be as much the case in some others.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Rosie A. said:


> I guess what it comes down for me is that I'm not a fast paced author. The way Mr. Gaughran describes the drip drip of wide is more suitable to the way I write and publish. Suppose that's point 1 for me. Point 2 is that I rather have readers want to purchase my work instead of download it off KU just because it's there. I want to ultimately have fans who appreciate my work. I just didn't find that in KU. There are a number of other issues I had with it.
> 
> What I'd appreciate more of here is seeing wide authors discuss how they grew audiences at other retailers. I've read a few of the older threads here but the tactics mentioned in the article were a really good place to begin. I feel like a lot of the discussions on this board center around KU.


If you're getting page reads, that's people actually reading your book, something you can't be sure about just because someone bought it.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Jay Allan said:


> If you're getting page reads, that's people actually reading your book, something you can't be sure about just because someone bought it.


Well, yes. But I wasn't getting them after some time either. I think it's because competition is thick in my genre. There are a lot of historical romance titles in KU.


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## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

In a way this article only tells us what we already know - but it's still a great piece, because we all need these regular kicks up the bum.

We have to market our books, and market them well. That involves scrutinising the different retailers and coming up with a strategy that best reaches their readers. It's time-consuming and labour-intensive, and a bit of hit-and-miss will be discouraging at times. Whether you can achieve results through direct-to-landing-page kind of advertising or an email list is another choice to be made. The choice of going KU or Wide isn't an alternative strategy or a means to avoid the necessary marketing.

Granted, some genres don't do well in KU (it seems) and that simplifies the question. For mine, I'm about to go Wide because page reads aren't enough to justify exclusivity - I feel just a few sales Wide will compensate. Plus I want to get serious about FB ads, and I feel you have to be Wide to utilise those anyway.

Don't quite agree with DG's strategy of free books. I still feel these days that there are readers who actively seek ONLY free books and have created a mindset that even 0.99 cents is too much. But a free sample direct from your website might work.


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## Gwen Hayes (Apr 24, 2011)

A.G.B said:


> Great article.
> 
> So are people using Pronoun for their first in series and then going direct for the rest?


I haven't read all the posts yet, but I will caution you about this. 
I thought I'd be making life easier by doing book 1 permafree at Pronoun then going direct with rest of series. And it is indeed easier to get your book free right away. 
However, Amazon won't link my series because book 1 came from different distributor. So, if series linking is important to you, then you should go all in Pronoun or all direct with Amazon.


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## BillyDeCarlo (Apr 11, 2017)

The Bass Bagwhan said:


> Plus I want to get serious about FB ads, and I feel you have to be Wide to utilise those anyway.


I don't understand that part. I'm in KDP and I use Facebook ads and put in them that I'm in KU I think it jobs people who might subscribe to check out my book, as well as the usual buys from those not in KU. You don't have to be wide to utilize FB ads (or any other). The ads link directly to my amazon page, and appear to be working very well (as opposed to the frustrating garbage that is AMS).


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## Victoria LK (Jan 31, 2014)

Laran Mithras said:


> I had exactly one customer complain via review that my books were not in KU when they used to be. Even then, the KU grumper bought my other books direct.
> 
> I really don't think we're attributing realistic buying patterns to those who use KU. Is every single KU subscriber anti-author hate-purchase zombies to the subscription plan? I think we're being a little stereotypical here on KB assuming so.
> 
> My editor had been a member of KU and also bought titles direct. I fail to see some massive barrier stopping KU subscribers from buying books.


Personally, I'm a member, yet I rarely let that get in the way of buying a book. If I like the author, I will buy it. Besides 10 books a month is not enough for me, so I have to purchase some anyways!


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## Awasin (Aug 7, 2015)

Victoria LK said:


> Personally, I'm a member, yet I rarely let that get in the way of buying a book. If I like the author, I will buy it. *Besides 10 books a month is not enough for me, so I have to purchase some anyways!*


It's not 10 books a month it's 10 books at a time. It's infinite books a month.


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## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

BillyDeCarlo said:


> I don't understand that part. I'm in KDP and I use Facebook ads and put in them that I'm in KU I think it jobs people who might subscribe to check out my book, as well as the usual buys from those not in KU. You don't have to be wide to utilize FB ads (or any other). The ads link directly to my amazon page, and appear to be working very well (as opposed to the frustrating garbage that is AMS).


I don't think you can specifically target your FB ads (in the FB Ad Metadata) towards only Amazon/Kindle readers. Yes, you can write copy and blurb about it being in KU or Amazon-exclusive, but that won't stop the ad being displayed to people who use iBooks, Kobo, etc, and you're immediately excluding those people who might have otherwise bought your book. In other words, by default FB ads reach a "Wide" audience whether you like it or not, so you should have your book available to them. I could be wrong - maybe you can exclude non-Amazon readers with your FB targeting... someone might know.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

The Bass Bagwhan said:


> I don't think you can specifically target your FB ads (in the FB Ad Metadata) towards only Amazon/Kindle readers. Yes, you can write copy and blurb about it being in KU or Amazon-exclusive, but that won't stop the ad being displayed to people who use iBooks, Kobo, etc, and you're immediately excluding those people who might have otherwise bought your book. In other words, by default FB ads reach a "Wide" audience whether you like it or not, so you should have your book available to them. I could be wrong - maybe you can exclude non-Amazon readers with your FB targeting... someone might know.


You can indeed restrict your ads to people that Facebook has identified as Kindle owners, but the targeting isn't perfect obviously and you will always get a few that will ask why it isn't available on Nook etc. And that stings of course, even if it is just a handful, even when you try and tell yourself that maybe thousands more are discovering it in KU than would have done otherwise...


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but what are the advantages of being on Amazon but not being in Select and not going wide as well?
> 
> For example, I make nothing on any of the wide stores (except GP) so I'd personally be happy to be exclusive to Amazon, but page reads were murder on my sales income because my books are short. So being in KU was terrible for me.
> 
> Is there any advantage at all of being exclusive to Amazon but not in KU? And if you are not in KU then surely you might as well be wide and get what little extra there is out there?


I'm quoting myself because no one answered it and I really want to know the answer 

Is there ANY advantage to being exclusive to Amazon but not being in KU?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

None that I know of. Unless perhaps the convenience of not having to struggle with other platforms.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> None that I know of. Unless perhaps the convenience of not having to struggle with other platforms.


Thanks Lydniz, that's what I thought, but there seemed to be some suggestion of an advantage and I just couldn't see it. I wondered if I was missing something


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Aside from making your life slightly simpler, I can't see an advantage.

But then if that's a priority, you could always give your hard-drive exclusivity!


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Evenstar said:


> Thanks Lydniz, that's what I thought, but there seemed to be some suggestion of an advantage and I just couldn't see it. I wondered if I was missing something


I think they meant 'direct' to Amazon as opposed to through an aggregator like Pronoun or Draft to Digital.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Sarah Shaw said:


> I think they meant 'direct' to Amazon as opposed to through an aggregator like Pronoun or Draft to Digital.


I really can't understand the trend to take an indirect path to Amazon* - it's an idea gaining a lot of popularity in the last few months and I don't know what the source is or who is advocating it.

* except in very limited, specific circumstances like perhaps a limited time 99c box set where you want/need that 70%


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Evenstar said:


> Is there ANY advantage to being exclusive to Amazon but not being in KU?


There is no advantage because all the additional goodie bags go to those in Select. I think the trend on Kboards of advocating exclusivity to Amazon outside Select came from those threads where the debate descending into trench warfare between staying wide or staying in KU, whereas there is a third way of avoiding sales hits from KU without needing to monitor sales totals in a range of different sites. Although I would think if convenience was a concern it would be better to go Amazon + D2D rather than Amazon alone. The one advantage I could see is a book you take in and out of KU. It is less hassle to other retailers and avoids waiting for books to be taken down if you leave KU without going wide.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Ah you might be right. It could have been down to people fearing KU cannibalizing their own sales.

(I actually think we all got that wrong and KU cannibalizes not your sales so much but all the other books not in KU.)


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

One thing to note about David's article is that Countdown deals are only available on the US and UK stores, so while you might get more per 99c or 99p sale you annoy Australians and Canadians who expect a good deal and end up with standard price. Of course thinking purely in profit terms the US and UK and the biggest Amazon markets, but in customer retention terms Countdown deals are not great and although in Select I will not use them. Countdown deals are also set up to discourage playing with prices as prices must stay constant for a period before the deal. Overall I don't think a Countdown deal is a good reason not to go wide unless your market is very US and UK based (plus those international customers using .com for ebooks, which is an option in Canada and Ireland). To me being in Select is partly about convenience (not checking direct stores that seldom give any sales) and KU rank boost. I write a lot of non-fiction so especially with the latest changes on page counting I do not expect great page reads as readers will probably only want to read one or two chapters in the book. Maybe that will pick up once essay season arrives.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

dgaughran said:


> Ah you might be right. It could have been down to people fearing KU cannibalizing their own sales.
> 
> (I actually think we all got that wrong and KU cannibalizes not your sales so much but all the other books not in KU.)


Some on this forum are convinced that Amazon is the great Satan, and its ultimate evil is KU. They are also convinced that KU is cannibalizing their sales and that since for shorter works KU pays less than a sale, they refuse to feed the KU monster. Some will anecdotally testify that their sales soared when they unchecked the box.

As I'm sure others have, I wonder if my page reads would convert to sales if I left KU, but have not tried the experiment.


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## BillyDeCarlo (Apr 11, 2017)

The Bass Bagwhan said:


> I don't think you can specifically target your FB ads (in the FB Ad Metadata) towards only Amazon/Kindle readers.


Yes, you can. My ad specifies that the target audience must have one of the following (Baldacci, Connelly, etc) *plus* at least one of the following (Kindle user, kindle enthusiast, etc). That's how you target Amazon/Kindle readers in Facebook ads. I also add Audible users in there to help my audiobooks. In my ad copy, I have "kindle/KU/audio" in order to make it clearer that it's Kindle only and to tip off KU subscribers.

Another factor people might not be considering is that if someone clicks an AMS or other CPC ad, it's singular thing. But when a Facebook user clicks 'like' or comments on my Facebook ad, many other people in their friend list or followers will see it and perhaps act. In that way some of them might not be Kindle users, but that's ok with me.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

BillyDeCarlo said:


> My ad specifies that the target audience must have one of the following (Baldacci, Connelly, etc) *plus* at least one of the following (Kindle user, kindle enthusiast, etc). That's how you target Amazon/Kindle readers in Facebook ads. I also add Audible users in there to help my audiobooks. In my ad copy, I have "kindle/KU/audio" in order to make it clearer that it's Kindle only and to tip off KU subscribers.


I've seen the advice several times to target Amazon readers this way and it's always puzzled me. I read exclusively Amazon and exclusively ebooks but it would never in a million years have occurred to me to identify myself as a 'Kindle user' or 'Kindle enthusiast'. For one thing, I don't own a Kindle. All my reading is done on apps. I do identify favorite authors, so that part makes sense to me. But for all the reading I do, I've never yet been targeted for a book or author mailing list ad. Everything else under the sun, but never the one thing I spend money on every week. Makes me think a lot of authors must be missing out on a sizable subsection of readers.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I had two series in KU. When I took my books out, sales of those books on Amazon alone tripled. You don't have to believe me (and you probably won't, but I'm OK with that. I know that they did).


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> I had two series in KU. When I took my books out, sales of those books on Amazon alone tripled. You don't have to believe me (and you probably won't, but I'm OK with that. I know that they did).


Patty, I believe you. I also agree with what you posted early in this thread. Different goals for different folks.


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## BillyDeCarlo (Apr 11, 2017)

Sarah Shaw said:


> I've seen the advice several times to target Amazon readers this way and it's always puzzled me. I read exclusively Amazon and exclusively ebooks but it would never in a million years have occurred to me to identify myself as a 'Kindle user' or 'Kindle enthusiast'. For one thing, I don't own a Kindle. All my reading is done on apps. I do identify favorite authors, so that part makes sense to me. But for all the reading I do, I've never yet been targeted for a book or author mailing list ad. Everything else under the sun, but never the one thing I spend money on every week. Makes me think a lot of authors must be missing out on a sizable subsection of readers.


You don't have to identify anything. That's the evil point of social media. Facebook knows a lot about you based on a lot of things, and don't rely on you telling them anything. It all goes into the profile of you that they have (as well as Google and all the others). Even if you don't use Gmail, any time you send something or receive something from someone that does, they're learning all about you.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> Patty, I believe you. I also agree with what you posted early in this thread. Different goals for different folks.


I'm just poking you, you know that 

But seriously, I don't think Amazon is evil. I agree with the assessment several page above, that it's a company too big to know what it's doing and how to change course, because people are in charge, but they're not really in charge. I've worked for organisations like this, and my husband works for one right now (and has worked for several more) and I have ZERO trust that Amazon knows what it's doing and that it is going where the CEO thinks it's going.

But evil, it is emphatically not.

I'm indifferent to it. I don't trust it, but I'll use it.

I find that when you reduce Amazon et al. to the moniker "delivery platform", it kinda de-mystifies it. That's what it is: a delivery platform for my books.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

BillyDeCarlo said:


> You don't have to identify anything. That's the evil point of social media. Facebook knows a lot about you based on a lot of things, and don't rely on you telling them anything. It all goes into the profile of you that they have (as well as Google and all the others). Even if you don't use Gmail, any time you send something or receive something from someone that does, they're learning all about you.


Maybe. (Although I don't use gmail and generally turn off any kind of linking, clean cookies regularly, etc.) But despite my having a made exception for Goodreads and linking that account to Facebook and that my 'reader's challenge' usually shows me reading at least a hundred books a year they don't appear to know that I DO read ebooks. Either that or authors are doing something else in their targeting (like looking for an only American-based audience or only young age groups) that's excluding me.

(Of course the optimist in me is hoping it means that other historical fiction and nonfiction authors aren't using Facebook ads. In which case I'll have a wide open field before me for my own books! Mwaahaha!  )


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Evenstar said:


> Thanks Lydniz, that's what I thought, but there seemed to be some suggestion of an advantage and I just couldn't see it. I wondered if I was missing something


Maybe if they can't borrow the book, they'll have to buy it.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Sarah Shaw said:


> I've seen the advice several times to target Amazon readers this way and it's always puzzled me. I read exclusively Amazon and exclusively ebooks but it would never in a million years have occurred to me to identify myself as a 'Kindle user' or 'Kindle enthusiast'. For one thing, I don't own a Kindle. All my reading is done on apps. I do identify favorite authors, so that part makes sense to me. But for all the reading I do, I've never yet been targeted for a book or author mailing list ad. Everything else under the sun, but never the one thing I spend money on every week. Makes me think a lot of authors must be missing out on a sizable subsection of readers.


Two things.

1. These platforms often know a lot more about you than you think. Or they can extrapolate and get pretty close - that's why it's often not perfect.

2. When you are doing any kind of digital marketing, like advertising on Facebook, targeting narrowly rather than broadly gives you better ROI. So maybe (hypothetical numbers) Facebook has identified 100,000 people that it is pretty sure like Romantic Suspense in America. But maybe there are 500,000 people which actually like Romantic Suspense in America. So are you better to target the 100,000 that Facebook can find, or the general audience of 4m people that like Romance? The answer, always, is to target that 100,000. You probably won't be able to afford to reach them all anyway, so better to restrict yourself to ones you know are likely book purchasers. Otherwise your advertising gets crazy expensive and will cost you money rather than making you money.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'm just poking you, you know that


Of course. 



Patty Jansen said:


> But seriously, I don't think Amazon is evil. I agree with the assessment several page above, that it's a company too big to know what it's doing and how to change course, because people are in charge, but they're not really in charge. I've worked for organisations like this, and my husband works for one right now (and has worked for several more) and I have ZERO trust that Amazon knows what it's doing and that it is going where the CEO thinks it's going.


And I agree with this 100%. I currently work for an organization that makes KDP look functional.


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## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

BillyDeCarlo said:


> Yes, you can. My ad specifies that the target audience must have one of the following (Baldacci, Connelly, etc) *plus* at least one of the following (Kindle user, kindle enthusiast, etc). That's how you target Amazon/Kindle readers in Facebook ads. I also add Audible users in there to help my audiobooks. In my ad copy, I have "kindle/KU/audio" in order to make it clearer that it's Kindle only and to tip off KU subscribers.
> 
> Another factor people might not be considering is that if someone clicks an AMS or other CPC ad, it's singular thing. But when a Facebook user clicks 'like' or comments on my Facebook ad, many other people in their friend list or followers will see it and perhaps act. In that way some of them might not be Kindle users, but that's ok with me.


Damn, looks like I was wrong. Last time that happened it took about eighteen months for the divorce to come through...

But seriously, that's one of the skills of FB ads... figuring out accurate and effective target audience. Hats off...


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## ibizwiz (Dec 25, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> I had two series in KU. When I took my books out, sales of those books on Amazon alone tripled.


Thanks for sharing, but I'm not surprised. If a series is doing well (to be defined!) in KU, then related-story-arc non-select books should sell well (on Amazon). If KU readers like a series, non-KU members will also like the books.

I'm setting up an experiment to test both these vital suppositions in the coming year.

1 We'll put a 3 novel series into KU all on the same day
2 Over the initial 90 day period, we'll release three stand-alone books sharing the same story arc and key characters. These will not be in Select. (Meaning we can begin building a "wide" distribution network early in the arc life cycle).
3 At the end of the initial 90 days, we'll decide on leaving the series in, or pulling it. Based on my (limited) KU experience and the vast array of comments in KBoards, I'm guessing the numbers will say "Go another 90-day cycle". If the KU #s are strong, we can stay in a third cycle.
4 In parallel, we'll focus on getting the 2nd three-novel series ready for a "Liliana Nirvana" *wide* launch as the second (or third) 90-day KU cycle ends.
5 My working plan is to pull the original series out and stage a "wide launch" with the three books just after the wide launch of the 2nd trilogy.

Note that this staged arc release strategy lets us build our list aggressively for 180 to 270 days prior to putting the original trilogy wide. It sets us up for a sale to non-Amazon readers, hopefully in concert with the launch of our own direct sales option on the brand website.

Caveat: This cannot be a "pure" study of Patty's case, but it should be close enough to be able to make a predictive conclusion. Plus giving us evidence on the ability of a related set of non-Select books to ride on the KU activity of the core series.

Caveat 2: We're in a non-existent niche -- readers of grownup erotic realism and comedy -- so we have no idea how many of these readers are KU members. My guess is not many, but I need a serious trial in KU to find out. I'm convinced subject to hard evidence that our target audiences have a light proportion of KU members. Meaning "wide" has to be the choice, in our specific, even weird case. But if I can develop a profitable way to draw KU readers out to our larger list, that would be a big aid in building a viable catalog.

Oh, and Amazon is a big corporation meaning it is evil, not by design. All huge institutions are evil: 
1 due to managerial incompetence
2 due to poor product/service design
3 due to mimicking our conforming to competitors
4 due to shareholder/top management greed
5 due to serendipity, accident, economic surprises etc.

They are evil often, in spite of their efforts not to be.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Laran Mithras said:


> I had exactly one customer complain via review that my books were not in KU when they used to be. Even then, the KU grumper bought my other books direct.


When I pulled my books from KU (I was never all-in) I had a similar experience. I received maybe one or two upset emails about my books being out of KU, but that was it. I get more angry emails about not giving away all of my books for free after the series starters.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Stacy Claflin said:


> I get more angry emails about not giving away all of my books for free after the series starters.


I assume they are offering to pay your mortgage so you can afford to write for free? No? I'm shocked.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

As anti-KU as I am, I wish the program worked. Or maybe I should say, I wish the program was scammer-free.

Is Amazon evil? How many people are really saying that? Do they really abduct children and sacrifice goats to Lucifer? Who really believes that? Does Amazon step on certain people to make send extra dollars to the bottom line? Yes, I believe that. Does that make them evil?

And again, who really believes Amazon is really evil? I find the hyperbole nonconstructive.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> As anti-KU as I am, I wish the program worked. Or maybe I should say, I wish the program was scammer-free.
> 
> Is Amazon evil? How many people are really saying that? Do they really abduct children and sacrifice goats to Lucifer? Who really believes that? Does Amazon step on certain people to make send extra dollars to the bottom line? Yes, I believe that. Does that make them evil?
> 
> And again, who really believes Amazon is really evil? I find the hyperbole nonconstructive.


A lot of people (present company excepted) write things that suggest they think Amazon is evil. I'm sure we all agree that it (and most companies) are pursuing profit, sometimes at someone else's expense.

I too wished the program worked better. My ideal world would be one in which KU worked the way it is supposed to--and it was nonexclusive. Alas, probably neither of those things will ever happen.


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## Vale (Jul 19, 2017)

Sarah Shaw said:


> Maybe. (Although I don't use gmail and generally turn off any kind of linking, clean cookies regularly, etc.)


I wonder what the statistics are for this sort of thing. In a different life, especially after the Newsweek article pushing Mozilla+NoScript, we were seeing that 5% of users had scripts off by default and all tracking disabled. It was enough that we had to be sure all services "depreciated gracefully" (functioned normally and looked pretty without any scripts working and didn't have super snarky "YOU MUST ENABLE JAVASCRIPT TO VIEW THIS PAGE!!" messages). This is always my first assumption when I hear about inactive people being culled from mailing lists and then being upset because they did read them-it was probably those 5%. I also wonder how many enable scripts while on a site then turn them off. Facebook is good about tracking cross-sites, but I've watched a few friends have a browser just for Facebook and they enable the two facebook scripts to make it work, check it, then disable the scripts/quaruntine Facebook again. I don't think that's a "5%" number, but I find these things interesting now that I'm not paid to think about them.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Amazon is not evil nor are mass murderers evil. Calling any individual or organisation evil lets them off the hook by suggested that they are driven to do their nefarious deeds by some outside force they cannot control.

Amazon's deeds are not nefarious, they are just protecting their bottom line (preferably with as few tax generating profits as possible).

I regret being exclusive to the non-evil non-nefarious corporation, but KU rank boosting and page reads drew me back in for my fourth experiment.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

So many people mention that some genres do well in KU and some don't. I have no argument with that premise. My question is: Which genres do especially well in KU (in addition to romance), and which seldom do well in KU? Could you chime in with your genre and your own opinion on doing well or not doing well in KU with that genre?


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Sapphire said:


> So many people mention that some genres do well in KU and some don't. I have no argument with that premise. My question is: Which genres do especially well in KU (in addition to romance), and which seldom do well in KU? Could you chime in with your genre and your own opinion on doing well or not doing well in KU with that genre?


Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance have readers as voracious as Romance readers. I would assume Mystery would also do very well.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Sapphire said:


> So many people mention that some genres do well in KU and some don't. I have no argument with that premise. My question is: Which genres do especially well in KU (in addition to romance), and which seldom do well in KU? Could you chime in with your genre and your own opinion on doing well or not doing well in KU with that genre?


Space Opera and Military SF charts are absolutely dominated by KU books - hard for authors in that category to go wide.

At the other end of the scale writerly How Tos totally flop in KU, presumably because people won't to own reference books rather than borrow.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

dgaughran said:


> Space Opera and Military SF charts are absolutely dominated by KU books - hard for authors in that category to go wide.
> 
> At the other end of the scale writerly How Tos totally flop in KU, presumably because people won't to own reference books rather than borrow.


Meh.

I write Space Opera. I'm wide. If you're not going to be in the middle of what sells (most SO titles are milSF, and mine are political thrillers with adventure), then you're much better off wide. I don't want to write milSF, because there is soooooo much of it out there already and I don't mesh with that audience at all.

Much better to be wide. For one, do you know how starved people on other platforms are of decent SF that's not nekkid manchest?

So, no, follow the herd to KU is not something I' advise people to do. See where you fit in regards what you want to do and how you want to promote, and then do that, and to hell with how much your genre is or isn't dominated by KU.

From talking to KU peeps and comparing notes, it's my guess that a decent title wide sitting at 50k in the US charts makes as much money as one sitting at 5k in KU. That supposed extra visibility doesn't really buy you money in the bank at all through ghost borrows and the lower payout per read. Just release good books and decide on a strategy. Then follow it.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't doubt that your readers are wide.

Looking at the SO market in general though, the Amazon charts are dominated by KU titles. There's one non-KU title in the Top 40, 4 in Top 60, 7 in the Top 80, 11 in all of the Top 100. 

89 of the Top 100 is in KU! That's completely mental.

Any wide book trying to compete against that wall of KU books in that Top 100 is fighting with one hand behind its back. OK, maybe that does leave lots of SO-hungry readers on other platforms that are starved of choice and deals and reasonably priced books. I'd believe that, and doubly so in markets like Australia where books are more expensive and selection can be a little restricted. I can totally see that.

But the top SO authors in KU are probably going to pull down $200,000 in KU reads alone this year. That's a staggering amount of money and I'm highly skeptical that they would get close to replacing that if they went wide.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

dgaughran said:


> I don't doubt that your readers are wide.
> 
> Looking at the SO market in general though, the Amazon charts are dominated by KU titles. There's one non-KU title in the Top 40, 4 in Top 60, 7 in the Top 80, 11 in all of the Top 100.
> 
> ...


Maybe *they* would not, but I'm not a big name and am at half that and doubling my income every year, so no, I don't buy the KU stampede, I really don't. And I also really don't care about how many of the titles are in the top 100 at Amazon US. I actually sell better in the UK and only half my sales are on Amazon anyway, so I really DGAF about the Amazon US top 100, because I sell mainly off my mailing list and other kinds of word-of-mouth.

So, that article you wrote is great but I don't think you fully "feel" what it's like to be completely wide and genuinely don't care about KU.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I have been wondering if for people who don't *quite* write to market, if wide might be the better choice long run. We're going to appeal to less people, so maybe we need to appeal to people in more places?

If you are wide you can be on Overdrive, and you can always point KU readers there and say it is a good way to read your series completely free.

ETA: It had been my plan to always have something in KU and always have something wide. I may modify that strategy. I'm working on some experiments right now.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> ... I sell mainly off my mailing list and other kinds of word-of-mouth.


I Bring the Fire is not even on the first page of my genre anymore (and often not even on the third!), but my sales aren't down at the moment. I'm having a great month.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

You can't look at the top 100 of a subgenre and go "well 80 books are KU, guess I better do that!" Without also taking a look at the poplist which where the best earning books in the last 24 hours are listed. Hardly any KU books there? It's a propped up genre. A bunch of books in KU getting the "visibility" without the actual sales. And those making the sales and not getting borrows to sustain a top 100 subgenre sales rank are still doing okay, the other visibility engines that Amazon uses to um... Sell books vs lend them out.


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## antcurious (Jun 2, 2017)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> You can't look at the top 100 of a subgenre and go "well 80 books are KU, guess I better do that!" Without also taking a look at the poplist which where the best earning books in the last 24 hours are listed. Hardly any KU books there? It's a propped up genre. A bunch of books in KU getting the "visibility" without the actual sales. And those making the sales and not getting borrows to sustain a top 100 subgenre sales rank are still doing okay, the other visibility engines that Amazon uses to um... Sell books vs lend them out.


Silly question, but how do I see the 'poplist' for a category?


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

If you click any category at the very bottom of a book you land on the category home page. There are new sliders of books like 5 or 6 rows that are customized to your purchasing and browsing behavior + poplist ranking. So like the bestsellers might not be 1,2,3,4 of the actual top 100 which is updated hourly vs the poplist which is updated daily. Scroll to the bottom of that and you will see books ranking in "featured" order = poplist. There are many variables that break ties, but the overall input determining poplist rank is revenue. Not salves volume.

So for example last year I had a book selling at $9.99 fall off the top 100 for Scottish historical romance. But for 2 weeks it was front page of the pop list, mixed between two Outlander books. Book #189 in a subgenre could be making more money than book #9 because of KU borrows which at a time of a click boosts the sales ranking but isn't any money value to the poplist. Free and borrows don't count for the poplist.

Poplist also informs emails that go out. That's how many of us who might chart sales ranking when we release but fall off still sell steadily. Amazon's recommendation engines KNOW that sales ranking isn't necessarily the best indication of a potential sale. They have reduced visibility of the top 100 Amazon store ranking over the years, we used to land there when clicking categories from Kindle Store, now you have to know how to get there. And they introduced the new Charts which is interesting as that 100 doesn't match the Amazon store 100. 

You have to understand what's the dog and what's the tail. Early Amazon yes, sales rank = better visibility = even more sales. Today? Revenue = better visibility = more sales.


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## antcurious (Jun 2, 2017)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> If you click any category at the very bottom of a book you land on the category home page. There are new sliders of books like 5 or 6 rows that are customized to your purchasing and browsing behavior + poplist ranking. So like the bestsellers might not be 1,2,3,4 of the actual top 100 which is updated hourly vs the poplist which is updated daily. Scroll to the bottom of that and you will see books ranking in "featured" order = poplist. There are many variables that break ties, but the overall input determining poplist rank is revenue. Not salves volume.
> 
> So for example last year I had a book selling at $9.99 fall off the top 100 for Scottish historical romance. But for 2 weeks it was front page of the pop list, mixed between two Outlander books. Book #189 in a subgenre could be making more money than book #9 because of KU borrows which at a time of a click boosts the sales ranking but isn't any money value to the poplist. Free and borrows don't count for the poplist.
> 
> ...


Very interesting thanks!


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## Dale Ivan Smith (Oct 13, 2015)

Thanks, Elizabeth, for shedding some light on the Pop list. That's really good to know.
There's so much focus on the best seller lists, and how KU titles dominate them; but, as you, Patty and others have noted, for wide authors, that doesn't mean as much.


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## It&#039;s A Mystery (Mar 14, 2017)

I can't see categories at the bottom of any book page any more.

I can see categories where the book is ranking, bit when I click on them they take me to the bestseller list...

Can someone post a link to the traditional mystery pop list?!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

All of the categories on the left hand side will take you to the poplist page for each category.

https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b/ref=dp_brlad_entry?ie=UTF8&node=154606011


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## It&#039;s A Mystery (Mar 14, 2017)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> All of the categories on the left hand side will take you to the poplist page for each category.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks/b/ref=dp_brlad_entry?ie=UTF8&node=154606011


Ah! Thank you Elizabeth!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

So like right now when I go to the main romance page: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=lp_154606011_nr_n_24?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A133140011%2Cn%3A%21133141011%2Cn%3A154606011%2Cn%3A158566011&bbn=154606011&ie=UTF8&qid=1509215348&rnid=154606011

And I scroll to the bottom where books are listed individually. There are 2 sponsored titles and then The Hideaway and Fairytale. The Hideaway is currently #44 in the Paid Kindle Store, and Fairytale is #203. Fairytale by Danielle Steel is $14.99, so it's difficult for better sales ranking books with lower prices in romance to beat it.

You can see from the overall romance poplist it's a good 50-50 split of $3.99 and less price points and $9.99 and up. But if you were to look at the Top 100 Overall romance list for sales ranking, 15 of the top 20 are KU, only 2 books are higher than $4.99 in price point. If you looked at one (the bestseller list) you would think "Man, NO ONE is buying books in romance they're all KU and NO ONE is spending more than $.99!" But if you look at the poplist, you get a very different view of the market.

And it's a balancing act between the two depending on your strategy, marketing, and abilities.

I chose to go publish less often, stay focused on one genre that's a niche that can support $9.99 and $14.99 price points. I can post chapters on my blog to keep sales going. Lately I've had 2 Bookbubs but before this August, I hadn't had a Bookbub in 2 years. I built the publishing empire I wanted after being here for 4 years and knowing a few of the options available. Some experiments didn't work. Some experiments I still have on my To Do list. But by having a very clear vision of what I wanted and where I wanted to go, it was easier when things were a slight setback to go "that's okay, because I'm still making progress here, here, and here."

If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.  I encourage authors, no matter WHAT path or program they choose, they educate themselves of the ins and the outs and know the WHY behind what they're doing. A permafree for example.... everyone says if you are wide you must have a permafree. that didn't really work for me. Why? Because I was already blogging chapters. I had already solved the low barrier test to adopt problem, so throwing the same solution down for a problem already solved didn't move my needle. Doesn't mean a permafree won't work for another author. They should try it. And watch their data. And try other things, and compare.


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## It&#039;s A Mystery (Mar 14, 2017)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> So like right now when I go to the main romance page: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=lp_154606011_nr_n_24?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A133140011%2Cn%3A%21133141011%2Cn%3A154606011%2Cn%3A158566011&bbn=154606011&ie=UTF8&qid=1509215348&rnid=154606011
> 
> And I scroll to the bottom where books are listed individually. There are 2 sponsored titles and then The Hideaway and Fairytale. The Hideaway is currently #44 in the Paid Kindle Store, and Fairytale is #203. Fairytale by Danielle Steel is $14.99, so it's difficult for better sales ranking books with lower prices in romance to beat it.
> 
> ...


Great stuff Elizabeth. I'm putting together my new career plan right now so all info is welcome!


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> ...Free and borrows don't count for the populist...


Hey Elizabeth! From memory, the last thing I heard was that a free download counts for 1/10th of a sale for the poplist. Has this changed, do you know?


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

MelanieCellier said:


> Hey Elizabeth! From memory, the last thing I heard was that a free download counts for 1/10th of a sale for the poplist. Has this changed, do you know?


My last conversation with Phoenix was that free no longer counted towards the Pop list. And I haven't been seeing FREE books in the poplists, so I believe it.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> Meh.
> 
> I write Space Opera. I'm wide. If you're not going to be in the middle of what sells (most SO titles are milSF, and mine are political thrillers with adventure), then you're much better off wide. I don't want to write milSF, because there is soooooo much of it out there already and I don't mesh with that audience at all.
> 
> ...


It's not about following the herd, it's about analysis of reality. I'm really not sure what kind of funky math suggests a wide title at 50k makes more than a KU title at 5k ranking.

As far as understanding how many "starved" SF fans there are out there on wide platforms, I think four years of wide distribution, a rep at BN and lots of support from them, and lots and lots of Kobo promos, etc., gave me a good idea. I won't speak of your specific sub-genre, as I'm not familiar with it, but a LOT of SF authors will be dead men walking outside of KU. That's just the reality. I don't like it, but I don't ignore it either. Most days, you're pretty well locked out of the top-20 page of both Space Opera and Mil SF, for example. Those pages are ALL KU, except when a big trad release comes out, someone has a Bookbub on a wide release, or something like 1984 pops to the top of the list for a few days.

Just to be clear, I can't express how little I care what people choose to do, and as I said, I don't comment on sub-genres I don't know, but apart from that, there's a lot of misinformation floating around about the hard realities of the market. Amazon knocking a few cents off the payout doesn't change the realities, and neither does dislike of exclusivity.

KU borrows produce lots of page reads, and a lot of revenue. If you're getting enough borrows to chart at a good level and you're not getting the reads and income, something is very wrong. So, I'm not sure what people are talking about when they say exposure without revenue. When you see those books blasted up to #1 or #2 in space opera because of KU, I can tell you flat out, those books are making good money.


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> My last conversation with Phoenix was that free no longer counted towards the Pop list. And I haven't been seeing FREE books in the poplists, so I believe it.


*sigh* I guess that explains why everyone has been reporting such terrible tails on free promos.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Amazon doesn't like freebies? Who woulda thought?  

Makes sense that they penalize them.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay Allan said:


> It's not about following the herd, it's about analysis of reality. I'm really not sure what kind of funky math suggests a wide title at 50k makes more than a KU title at 5k ranking.
> 
> As far as understanding how many "starved" SF fans there are out there on wide platforms, I think four years of wide distribution, a rep at BN and lots of support from them, and lots and lots of Kobo promos, etc., gave me a good idea. I won't speak of your specific sub-genre, as I'm not familiar with it, but a LOT of SF authors will be dead men walking outside of KU. That's just the reality. I don't like it, but I don't ignore it either. Most days, you're pretty well locked out of the top-20 page of both Space Opera and Mil SF, for example. Those pages are ALL KU, except when a big trad release comes out, someone has a Bookbub on a wide release, or something like 1984 pops to the top of the list for a few days.
> 
> ...


There is a whole bunch of stuff that goes into this, and I could write an essay about it.

But let's unpack a few things:

I'm talking about books ranked 5-10K in the US store in KU. I'm NOT talking about the #1 in Space Opera.

Let's just acknowledge here and now that figures will always be extremely rubbery due to the fact that the main players don't release their data. Yeah, yeah, Author Earnings. And nope, they don't measure actual KU income accurately either (nor do they report on Amazon UK and other countries, or the other vendors). Because KU income through reads is disassociated from ranking which happens when someone's book is borrowed there will never be a system that measures it accurately.

Let's just acknowledge ghost borrows. Hands up all of you if you've never returned a book to the library unread even if you had 200% intended to read it, even if it was from your favourite author. Your ranking jumps when someone borrows, you get paid when someone actually reads. There will always be a gap between the two.

And I'm talking about money in the bank, not about ranking or number of sales.

OK, so over the past few months, I have followed a number of all-KU authors who have gone wide. These were authors whose books were in the 5-10k range while in KU. After they finished dropping out of KU, their books were usually 50-100k. IN THE US STORE.

Why did I put the latter in capitals?

Because KU, especially in Space Opera, is hugely US dominated. What you see in the US store ranking is basically what a KU book is gonna get.

What happens when a book drops out of KU?

1. Borrows stop propping up your ranking.

2. You start selling far more books on Amazon than before. If you price your book at $4.99 (and minus point 1), you make far more money per unit of rank boost. Multiply by however many books are in your series.

3. You start selling on other platforms. If your book was at 5-10k in the US store, this means you likely have a book that people love to read, and they will discover it at B&N and the like. They will buy it there. You don't really have to do all that much to make that happen.

4. Most people who drop out of KU will either make book 1 free or will join Instafreebie. Readers who have KU have no need for free books and are probably much less likely to seek out IF books. Hence, you'll attract more wide readers via IF. Since I've started using IF, the percentage of people on my mailing list who are not in the US has gone up. Remember that KU only targets a very small number of countries. The main point of this is that you will have more sales in places that are not reflected in the Amazon US ranking. My US sales are only 25% of my total sales, and Amazon is half of my total sales, so my Amazon US rankings only reflect 12.5% of my sales.

Now all of this will take some time to filter through once you've unticked that auto-renew button. Those authors I've been following have stated that their income while their books are ranked 50-100k in the store is similar to their income when KU-only with much higher rankings.

Now again, it's about approach and choosing the right book. If you write straight-up milSF (which I don't), you may well be better off in KU because of where your audience is.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Ghost borrows?  No one ever said everybody who borrows a book reads it.  For that matter, not everybody who buys a book reads it.  And, yes, I realize you get paid for the sale whether they read or not.  That said, large numbers of borrows should translate into large numbers of page reads, and hence, revenue.  If you're seeing a rank-moving number of borrows, and you're not getting reads and the accompanying royalties, you need to look into why.  No, you're not going to get as many reads as someone with higher rank and borrows, but you should have a similar relationship in the two.  If a higher percentage of people are borrowing your book and not reading a significant portion of it, that suggests a problem.  Maybe formatting or some other issue.

This has nothing to do with any specific author or how they decide to sell their books, but there is some advice floating around here that is bad for a lot of new authors trying to build an audience.  I get that a lot of people are mad Amazon has been paying a few cents less per page read (I'm not thrilled with it either) and also that many have't gotten the results they want from KU.  Fine, try what you want, but be careful what you recommend other people do.  There's a lot of talk on here like going wide is some new discovery.  I was wide for four years, and I tried everything I could to avoid KU.  But in my genres (and this WILL vary by genre), it just doesn't work.  Yes, you can sell books, a lot of books even.  But you will lose ground.  And if you're new, trying to get noticed, you might as well go dig yourself a hole somewhere and lie there (again, in a genre like mine).

The whole "you'll start selling more books on Amazon" thing is also HIGHLY suspect.  And before three or four people come out of the woodwork and pound on me, I'm not saying NO ONE experiences this, but it's going to be a small, very small, minority.  Why?  Because your discoverability will drop like a stone.  So, yes, some loyal readers in KU will buy if they can't borrow (again, not much use to someone starting out), but you'll lose all the people who might have found you if your chart position was better.  And, of course, added sales mean nothing at all until they've completely made up for lost page read income.  Since a lot of titles in big KU genres will do 50% or more of revenues from page reads, that means you need to double sales just to tread water.

Plus, if someone has a long term view, they have to look at the market in a realistic way.  BN (and I did well there for a long time and have a soft spot for them...I probably stayed way too long because I didn't want to pull out) is clearly declining, and unable to compete long term.  Kobo is a permanent niche player.  Apple's a massive company that doesn't care at all about ebooks.  Could they compete seriously with Amazon?  Maybe.  Have they given ANY reason for anyone to believe they will?  Not that I've ever seen.  Go to a convention like NINC and watch every other retailer do presentations and hold visiting hours EXCEPT iBooks (except this year...they didn't even both to come and hide out like they usually do).  Google?  Another large company that has NO interest at any real level in books.  The search king, the monstrous, mega-profitable behemoth that has its tentacles in the spine of the Internet...and they've had their platform closed to new authors for what?  Two years?

I think people like to tell themselves that wide is the long term play, and I agree that it seems like it should be, and in most cases it will be.  But there is NO rational reason to expect Amazon's competitors to do anything but shrink.  Amazon has crazy customer satisfaction.  Can BN say that?

All I'm saying is people need to think hard about all of this and not react to snippets of pithy but unsupported advice.  All authors are at different stages in their careers and exposure.  All genres are different.  But I'd bet you're going to see a vastly higher number of people break out through KU than you're going to see wide.  It's funny to see so much talk about wide from people who spent the last three years in KU and now act like they've discovered something new.  Do your own homework, look at what people who are killing it in your genre are doing, and before you make a decision, at least give some thought to why you think something different makes sense for you.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

> All I'm saying is people need to think hard about all of this and not react to snippets of pithy but unsupported advice. All authors are at different stages in their careers and exposure. All genres are different. But I'd bet you're going to see a vastly higher number of people break out through KU than you're going to see wide. It's funny to see so much talk about wide from people who spent the last three years in KU and now act like they've discovered something new. Do your own homework, look at what people who are killing it in your genre are doing, and before you make a decision, at least give some thought to why you think something different makes sense for you.


The problem might be that all advice--whether promoting wide or promoting KU--is of the Your Mileage May Vary variety. I don't think the advice I've seen about going wide is pithy and unsupported, any more than I think the advice to stay (or start) in KU is pithy and unsupported. Warning people that wide isn't All That is advice from someone who does better in KU than outside of KU, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean 'go wide, young author' is definitively bad advice either.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

The personalization showed up this year in the last few months. 

Friends and I have played and documented extensive sessions of what do you see and what do I see at the same moments to tell how much variation there is. 

When someone is NOT logged in, and has cookies etc. off, yes, Amazon makes it's best guess. 

But the second someone has ANY kind of personal purchasing information available for Amazon to use, it goes AHA! and there are slight changes. Differences we've noted have been same books different order, different titles was minimal unless one of us had actual purchasing history in that subgenre.

What this also means is that marketing efforts to just become king or queen of the hill are giving less dividends than a year ago, and I've seen that complained about as well. 

But at the end of the day, if people can't understand the importance of the poplist, no amount of forum posts are going to persuade them otherwise. They way I figured out stores I sell my books on is going and behaving like a customer and figuring out how they sell me books and going from there. I use different keywords on different vendors, sometimes even different categories. 

The poplist is more subtle. It's harder, you have to go look at it daily and you have to have a book top the poplist in your genre to see the effects, especially if you do it without being on the top 100 sales rank list. Then you're like "OHHHH."


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

I have a question from something I just read re wide...

So if an author has a series out, do some have their book 1 for sale across platforms but also have it on instafreebie/bookfunnel for nothing? Is book 1 priced on the stores or is it free there also?


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

evdarcy said:


> I have a question from something I just read re wide...
> 
> So if an author has a series out, do some have their book 1 for sale across platforms but also have it on instafreebie/bookfunnel for nothing? Is book 1 priced on the stores or is it free there also?


i've given books away free in other ways and still had the book for sale in other places. I have 2 books still at regular price ($2.99 and $6.99) even though they are in a boxed set for $2.99 with another novella. No one has ever complained the book isn't priced the same everywhere, mostly because no one keeps shopping for a book they just bought and from paperbacks, they expect stuff to go on sale etc. after the fact.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Just FYI re the Pop List - free books are still counted, just not at the 1/10th weighting of before. It's vastly reduced, but freeloads are still counted and you can still see free books on the pop lists.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> i've given books away free in other ways and still had the book for sale in other places. I have 2 books still at regular price ($2.99 and $6.99) even though they are in a boxed set for $2.99 with another novella. No one has ever complained the book isn't priced the same everywhere, mostly because no one keeps shopping for a book they just bought and from paperbacks, they expect stuff to go on sale etc. after the fact.


Thanks Elizabeth!


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2017)

Hi, my wife and I are new authors. We'll have our first book finished in a few weeks. It's an emotional and spiritual self-help book, which I doubt is a high selling genre. It will only be an e-book at first. It will take a month or two to do the print book. I don't understand all these terms yet, but it sounds like we should not do KU or Select (I'm assuming those are different programs).

If we sell the book directly on Amazon or the other websites, I assumed we would not get any email addresses. If I'm correct, how do you get an email list from people who find your book organically on Amazon or Apple etc.?


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

You can get email easily by having a comment at the back of your book to sign up for a newsletter. Or offer a free booklet if they send an email - then you have their email and build a list.

You don't automatically get email list from KU - you have to ask for it there, too.

If you have a website, you can point readers there and offer stuff for emails.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Hi, my wife and I are new authors. We'll have our first book finished in a few weeks. It's an emotional and spiritual self-help book, which I doubt is a high selling genre. It will only be an e-book at first. It will take a month or two to do the print book. I don't understand all these terms yet, but it sounds like we should not do KU or Select (I'm assuming those are different programs).
> 
> If we sell the book directly on Amazon or the other websites, I assumed we would not get any email addresses. If I'm correct, how do you get an email list from people who find your book organically on Amazon or Apple etc.?


KU is part of Select. When you publish your ebook through Kindle Direct Publishing, you have to option to enroll it in KDP Select. (You can do this any time, not just when you publish.) When your book is enrolled in KDP Select, it becomes part of Kindle Unlimited (KU). Enrollement is a 90-day commitment, automatically renewed unless you un-check the renewal box, and the ebook has to be exclusive to Amazon during that period; you can't even sell it on your site or give it away via Instafreebie or BookFunnel. The paperback can still be sold anywhere.

To get email address: sign up with an email provider. Lots of people like MailerLite; it's the one I use. Set up a web form, then embed the form on your website. Of course you have a website  It's important to host the form on your website instead of on the email provider's site, in case you change email providers. If you do that, you only have to change the form on your site, but you can continue using your own web page address. Once you have that set up, you can put the link with the address of the signup page on your site in your ebooks. It's generally recommend to put it at the front and the back.

Also on your site, make sure each page has a link to the email signup page.

One thing to think about doing is to put up a preview of your book on Instafreebie, or write a short companion book and put that up. With the paid account on Instafreebie, you can require people to sign up with their email address in order to download the book. (You get a free one month trial on the paid account).

ETA: as far as I know, none of the stores release customer information to authors who sell on them. If you want email addresses, you have to go through Instafreebie and BookFunnel, where readers consent to give you their email addresses in exchange for the book.


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## [email protected] (Oct 26, 2017)

Thanks Kyra, that was a really helpful answer. I do have a couple of websites and will build one specifically for the book. Its a one off emotional self help book. The more I read the less I think we should use KU. I use Sendy for email campaigns. Its a one time fee of $79. You have to install it on your website and set up Amazon S3. I see you have many books so I can understand you would use KU. And it looks like you're in a popular genre or two. I don't think emotional self help is popular. Thanks again


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks Kyra, that was a really helpful answer. I do have a couple of websites and will build one specifically for the book. Its a one off emotional self help book. The more I read the less I think we should use KU. I use Sendy for email campaigns. Its a one time fee of $79. You have to install it on your website and set up Amazon S3. I see you have many books so I can understand you would use KU. And it looks like you're in a popular genre or two. I don't think emotional self help is popular. Thanks again


Glad it was helpful (sorry about all the typos). Actually, I'm not in KU/Select; I experimented briefly with it a couple of times and found it didn't work well for me. Plus I hated having to be exclusive. Just made me feel twitchy. And other reasons why I didn't care for it. That's just me; the reasons for and against can be different for everyone and are the subject of many many many discussions here, so I won't start a new one.

I think the common wisdom is that non-fiction does better wide than in KU/Select. Whichever way you go, I would still recommend putting up a preview of the book (if it's in Select, you can still make up to 10% available elsewhere) or writing a companion booklet for Instafreebie and BookFunnel, and see if you can find some non-fiction group promos to join. Everyone promotes the giveaway to their readers, so everyone expands their audience that way.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Jay Allan said:


> Ghost borrows? No one ever said everybody who borrows a book reads it. For that matter, not everybody who buys a book reads it. And, yes, I realize you get paid for the sale whether they read or not. That said, large numbers of borrows should translate into large numbers of page reads, and hence, revenue. If you're seeing a rank-moving number of borrows, and you're not getting reads and the accompanying royalties, you need to look into why. No, you're not going to get as many reads as someone with higher rank and borrows, but you should have a similar relationship in the two. If a higher percentage of people are borrowing your book and not reading a significant portion of it, that suggests a problem. Maybe formatting or some other issue.
> 
> This has nothing to do with any specific author or how they decide to sell their books, but there is some advice floating around here that is bad for a lot of new authors trying to build an audience. I get that a lot of people are mad Amazon has been paying a few cents less per page read (I'm not thrilled with it either) and also that many have't gotten the results they want from KU. Fine, try what you want, but be careful what you recommend other people do. There's a lot of talk on here like going wide is some new discovery. I was wide for four years, and I tried everything I could to avoid KU. But in my genres (and this WILL vary by genre), it just doesn't work. Yes, you can sell books, a lot of books even. But you will lose ground. And if you're new, trying to get noticed, you might as well go dig yourself a hole somewhere and lie there (again, in a genre like mine).
> 
> ...


This. Loss of visibility is a very real thing. But after five years published, one thing I know for sure is that different authors, even authors who seem to write similar books, get different results. You really have to try for yourself and see.

I did have a period from KU1 to KU2 when I was able to see number of books read past 10% vs number of pages read, and was able to determine that those were about the same. If somebody made it past 10%, they pretty much finished the book. So for me, ghost borrows don't seem to be a big thing. I make an income commensurate with my books' rankings on my KU books. And if you do well and can generate some activity on the Amazon promo machine, of course, that's worth quite a bit. Concentrating all the benefit of promo on one vendor CAN be beneficial. Or not. Depending.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Puddleduck said:


> Does anyone else think the term "ghost borrows" sounds a little disrespectful to readers?


No, it doesn't sound disrespectful, I think that's a heck of a stretch, but it's a meaningless term. All borrows affect rank. Pages read do not. We have no idea how many pages read result from any borrows. Throwing in a term like "ghost borrows" distinguishes nothing and serves to confuse people not paying close attention.


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