# Some things to consider if you want to make a living writing books.



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

I just wrote a monster post on my blog with this title. I would post it here, but I'm afraid it would win some sort of razzie award for being the longest-winded post ever put on KB, so I won't. 

Here's the link if you want to check it out.

http://ellecasey.com/some-things-to-consider-if-you-want-to-make-a-living-writing-books/


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## KeithAllen (Jun 5, 2013)

The amount of quality you add to this group is staggering. Thanks Elle.


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## O_o (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks Elle, very interesting read, and yet another reminder for me that I really should do a bit more promotion!


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> I just wrote a monster post on my blog with this title. I would post it here, but I'm afraid it would win some sort of razzie award for being the longest-winded post ever put on KB, so I won't.
> 
> Here's the link if you want to check it out.
> 
> http://ellecasey.com/some-things-to-consider-if-you-want-to-make-a-living-writing-books/


Awesome. Thanks. It pretty much confirms what I been thinking based on reading posts by you and others here....


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

KRGriffiths said:


> Thanks Elle, very interesting read, and yet another reminder for me that I really should do a bit more promotion!


You and me both. People like Mimi Strong and Cassia Leo leave me in the dust with promotion and their sales show it.


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## DuncanMH (Apr 24, 2013)

Great post. Thanks for sharing it. I don't think you're in any danger of winning a Razzie for it if you stick it on here; it's exactly the kind of thing that keeps me coming back to the Writers' Cafe.


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## minxmalone (Oct 28, 2012)

Henceforth when people ask me questions about self-publishing, I am going to be extremely lazy and just point them to your blog post  

What a great summation. Thanks for sharing!


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## 71089 (Jul 12, 2013)

Very interesting! Especially that part about the pulled book. I was intrigued by it. It had so many reviews, I wonder how she got those? Did she message so many reviewers? It's like this explosion of interest happened and I'm wondering how she did it. Just curious about her marketing techniques  though I'm not keen on repeating her mistakes.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

ClarissaWild said:


> Very interesting! Especially that part about the pulled book. I was intrigued by it. It had so many reviews, I wonder how she got those? Did she message so many reviewers? It's like this explosion of interest happened and I'm wondering how she did it. Just curious about her marketing techniques  though I'm not keen on repeating her mistakes.


I don't want to derail the thread with a detailed look into that train wreck, so I'll just say this ... I know she/he had a TON of book bloggers lined up to read and review before the book went live. And the cover had the billionaire look (imitating bestsellers, CHECK) and the blurb was universally lauded as completely unique and captivating (awesome blurb CHECK). Like I mention in the article I wrote, if a person can't write, there's nothing I or anyone can do to help.


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## 71089 (Jul 12, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> I don't want to derail the thread with a detailed look into that train wreck, so I'll just say this ... I know she/he had a TON of book bloggers lined up to read and review before the book went live. And the cover had the billionaire look (imitating bestsellers, CHECK) and the blurb was universally lauded as completely unique and captivating (awesome blurb CHECK). Like I mention in the article I wrote, if a person can't write, there's nothing I or anyone can do to help.


Hmm interesting. Well, that's true indeed. Copying a good book's blurb and cover always works wonders for sales, but indeed, nothing can fix broken writing


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

Dynamite post, Elle. For the topics you covered, you mad your points succinctly.

I think the last paragraph is worth repeating.

_For anyone out there who this might strike a chord with, I'm here to tell you that you can do this - you can be a professional writer. *If you invest enough of yourself in the business of publishing and the artistry of writing, you can succeed.* The important thing is to be open to the advice of other people you admire, who have attained the goals you've set for yourself._

Thanks.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Thanks for sharing. I've pinned it to my writing board so that I can come back to it, because I know I will! Thanks for sharing that link to the pulled book. That was interesting. S/he definitely had an intriguing blurb, but from the comments, it sounded like the story was published too soon.


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## whatdanwrote (Oct 18, 2012)

That was a great blog post, direct and straightforward. Thanks for sharing.

I loved the part about fear of success, and your friend. So true.


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## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

Great post.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

> I have a friend who has at her fingertips the means to have a financially successful life, but she always fails to do the things she knows will bring her this security. I call that fear of success.
> 
> People like this think if they never try and fail, well, they can sleep well knowing "if" they had tried, things might be better and they can choose to do this at any time. It's like a savings account of sorts. But if they try and fail, their safety net goes away. They must face the fact that it was just an illusion all along and they have nothing "in the bank".


I loved this bit. Because it is so incredibly true. I had a bit of that in myself, but I had to excise it in order to move forward. Once I did, I never looked back.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Great stuff, Elle! Thanks for sharing.

The "A willingness to promote the work" part is fantastic. Too many view the marketing/selling part like it's the plague.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Alan Petersen said:


> Great stuff, Elle! Thanks for sharing.
> 
> The "A willingness to promote the work" part is fantastic. Too many view the marketing/selling part like it's the plague.


For me it is. I hate promotion. I have only just started doing it recently. I understand the need, and the requirement... but ugh.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

Incredible information, thanks Elle.

Where was the and-write-14-books-a-year in that blog!?

You can spot fairly early on the ones who'll probably make it, sales wise, because they stay along the lines that you laid out. It might be a bit creepy but I watch KB authors kind of like I might watch my fantasy football team. I pick players(writers) that I think will be successful in the next six months/year and see what unfolds. A long time ago I put Elle at the top of my list because I saw her will power, dedication and skill. And you know the crazy thing? Elle isn't even at her two year anniversary of writing. 

I hope one day to have enough knowledge to help lift those around me as you do.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Matt Ryan said:


> Incredible information, thanks Elle.
> 
> Where was the and-write-14-books-a-year in that blog!?
> ...


Heh, heh ... you missed it ... "So what do you do if you want to write for a niche market? Well, either plan on making less money or write a lot more books. If you can get a small percentage of a market to buy all your books, and you have a lot of them, you'll meet your goals."


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

I'm with you! Especially about that fear of success thing.  I've been talking about that for more than 20 years.  I think it is more common than fear of failure.  People with fear of success are afraid that if they do succeed, there will be an expectation that they will continue to do so.  They can't handle that kind of pressure and would rather get occasional accidental successes and a lot of nothing else than have people expect them to do well and live up to that.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> Heh, heh ... you missed it ... "So what do you do if you want to write for a niche market? Well, either plan on making less money or write a lot more books. If you can get a small percentage of a market to buy all your books, and you have a lot of them, you'll meet your goals."


So, question... how are we defining niche market? I know that romance is king of book sales, and I do not write romance so I am starting with a smaller chunk. I know that... but wondering how much smaller?  I know my market is smaller then say Sci Fi, because I am writing fantasy stories in a Sci-Fi setting and people looking for hard sci will disown me. Is my market one of the tiny ones?

My hardest thing right now seems to be targeting my promotion to the right groups. Recently did a freebooksy add, got a ton of traffic from it, but very little follow on sales.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> So, question... how are we defining niche market? I know that romance is king of book sales, and I do not write romance so I am starting with a smaller chunk. I know that... but wondering how much smaller?  I know my market is smaller then say Sci Fi, because I am writing fantasy stories in a Sci-Fi setting and people looking for hard sci will disown me. Is my market one of the tiny ones?
> 
> My hardest thing right now seems to be targeting my promotion to the right groups. Recently did a freebooksy add, got a ton of traffic from it, but very little follow on sales.


I would say if sci fi fans are disowning you, then, yes. You are in a niche market. One way you can tell is to go to the Amazon search categories that show you how many titles are in the category and if you see small numbers there, you're looking at a niche.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Here's an example of what I mean:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=lp_25_nr_n_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Cn%3A!1000%2Cn%3A25%2Cn%3A16272&bbn=25&ie=UTF8&qid=1381358625&rnid=25


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

Elle, "SLANG you are the woman" in the streets you would hear you are the man.   You have made your riches and your given back to the little people.  Thanks always for your helpful information.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> I would say if sci fi fans are disowning you, then, yes. You are in a niche market. One way you can tell is to go to the Amazon search categories that show you how many titles are in the category and if you see small numbers there, you're looking at a niche.


So book 1..

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #4,447 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)
#14 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > War & Military -->5,574 books
#29 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Military -->4,102 books

Also in, but do not know my rank:
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Fantasy -->8,828 books
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy --> 83,815 books

So I am taking it that <10,000 books is a small market?


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## OwenBaillie (Sep 19, 2013)

Thanks ellecasey   awesome stuff and deserving of several reads!  Nice of you to share


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Awesome, Elle, especially about the trifecta.

So many times, the sample is lacking in punch, and it's not a matter of taste, but rather of errors, overwriting, POV issues and cumbersome sentences. This is *hard* stuff to discuss, because it's all-encompassing and not easy to fix (or see, by the writer of the book), and to a certain extent, subject to taste.


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## Writer1000 (Jul 28, 2013)

Thank you so much, Elle. Great post.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Awesome write-up. And you know, I never thought of the idea that readers want to relive the last great experience they had with a book. Not always, I don't think, but enough. Certainly if I think, "Gosh. What do I read next?" and I know what I'm in the mood for, I'm likely to cruise the also-boughts of a book I loved that's in the genre I want at the time.

Anyway... very thought provoking


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm bookmarking that to share with anyone who asks me about self-publishing. You've written a great essay on the subject, full of useful information.

Thanks, Elle!


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Awesome article! Loved it.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

Great post. But I'd like to add one point: while smaller niches have fewer readers, they also have fewer writers writing for them. So niche writers will likely have a larger share of their market. Sure, if the niche is really tiny, that's still not a lot of sales. But it's conceivable that some niche writers can make a living being a small fish in a small pond.

I don't think that's a trivial point. An important way in which ebooks have revolutionized the industry is that, with zero distribution costs, writers can now write for much smaller niches than before. Will niche writers make it as big as the top sellers in thrillers and romance? No. Will some of them earn more than the #1000 author in thriller or romance? Maybe.


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## christianem (Sep 15, 2013)

Thank you for the post! It clarified a lot of stuff, but it also made me consider new questions about my career that I'm pretty sure will keep me up.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Thank you, Elle. Good blog. I retweeted it and posted it on my FB page. Good reminder/reading for writers.



Ben Mathew said:


> Great post. But I'd like to add one point: while smaller niches have fewer readers, they also have fewer writers writing for them. So niche writers will likely have a larger share of their market. Sure, if the niche is really tiny, that's still not a lot of sales. But it's conceivable that some niche writers can make a living being a small fish in a small pond.


Good point there too. My coming-soon non-fiction books are for a tiny niche, and yes, I don't expect mega sales. But at the same time I can't make them permafree. Gotta pay the editor and cover designer. What's leftover, maybe I'll get a cup of tea.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2013)

I've said the same thing to MANY authors trying to break through (though not as eloquently). With only one or two exceptions, they ignore me, then wonder why they're still not selling.


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## Midnight Whimsy (Jun 25, 2013)

Great post!

M.W


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## riffelbooks (Aug 11, 2013)

Thank you, Elle.


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

When people ask me to evaluate a book cover I tell them that a picture is worth a thousand words.  The cover is the first thousand words of your story.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Mcoorlim said:


> Great article!
> 
> People tell me they like my covers, and I get generally positive reviews. Maybe it's my blurbs, my niche market, or I just haven't hit the critical mass of released material needed to get me over, but I've been plateaued at my current sales for a year and a half.
> 
> ...


I think the sales plateau thing is normal. I have the same thing. It's only when I branched out into another genre that the plateau jumped up.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

BrianDAnderson said:


> I've said the same thing to MANY authors trying to break through (though not as eloquently). With only one or two exceptions, they ignore me, then wonder why they're still not selling.


^^ YES, this. If I critique 10 books, I might get 2 authors to actually listen and take any advice. Many people claim to want advice and help, but then you give it to them and they say "thanks, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that" and they just keep doing the same thing. I throw my hands up and walk away at that point. I can't help people who don't want to help themselves.

Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Any of us has to make changes if what we're doing isn't working, I don't care who the person is or how big their sales numbers are. I always bring up the example of HM Ward, one of the biggest bestselling indies out there, who has had to change covers several times to get it right. Even in one of her most recent releases she had to do it, and she has a HUGE following. Lucky for her, she's very in-tune with her fans and sales data and she isn't afraid to make changes on the fly to make things happen. She's got tough love for herself, so even though she makes her own fabulous covers, if one of them isn't working, BOOM, it's gone.

That's how you have to be in this business - ruthlessly honest with yourself. One part of you is a sensitive writer. The other part of you is the publishing team in charge of getting that book sold. No mercy.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

SBJones said:


> When people ask me to evaluate a book cover I tell them that a picture is worth a thousand words. The cover is the first thousand words of your story.


Excellent point. I agree 100%.

To everyone who commented with thanks ... you're welcome!! I'm glad you found the post helpful or at least thought-provoking.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

That's a great post, Elle. Thanks for taking the time.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> That's how you have to be in this business - ruthlessly honest with yourself. One part of you is a sensitive writer. The other part of you is the publishing team in charge of getting that book sold. No mercy.


You nailed it, this IS a business. In business you adapt and change ASAP to what the market wants, or someone eats your lunch for you. It is the same thing here.

For covers, I actually started leaning the other way (and saw it well put in 10000 titles sold thread today) - cover is ADVERTISING. It is to draw people in to read the blurb. It does not mean "here is what the story is"

Great points Elle, the success bank is the best way I've seen it put to date.


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## ravis36 (Oct 9, 2013)

A very nice post and blog. Thanks for the insight.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

DGS said:


> You nailed it, this IS a business. In business you adapt and change ASAP to what the market wants, or someone eats your lunch for you. It is the same thing here.
> 
> For covers, I actually started leaning the other way (and saw it well put in 10000 titles sold thread today) - cover is ADVERTISING. It is to draw people in to read the blurb. It does not mean "here is what the story is"
> 
> Great points Elle, the success bank is the best way I've seen it put to date.


You're absolutely right about the fact that covers are advertisements. You've sparked another thought in the avoiding-work part of my brain...

Sometime I stumble into one of those lightbulb moments without meaning to; one of them was my Shine Not Burn cover. I made the cover long before I even had a story to tell. It fit the new adult romance genre in every way. The story I eventually came up with really didn't match the cover at all, but I left it as is. The cover did the work of getting people to read the blurb and the sample and/or reviews and then the buys came. That's the book that landed me on all the bestseller lists.

You'll see people in the reviews saying the cover doesn't match the story very well, but I'll bet you a box of doughnuts that if I'd put a cowboy on the cover, I wouldn't have even come close to selling the numbers I did. I managed to find a lot of new fans for cowboy romances, I guess. Several reviewers mentioned they never ever read books with cowboys in them as a rule, but after reading SNB, they've started buying them. Thank goodness I was too lazy to make a new cover! I followed my rule, which is make a cover with similar elements to those on the bestseller list, and it paid off big time. If I had gone with the "make the cover like the story" rule, I'm quite sure it would not have worked out so well.

That is my strongest argument for covers being advertisements, designed to lure/guide readers through the process of getting to the blurb and sample or reviews (and of course finally to the one-click buy.) If your cover is poo, you've lost your chance. That's not to say you can put up any old cover that misleads a reader into the wrong genre or anything like that. If the cover says new adult romance, there'd better be a new adult romance inside those pages. But in my case, the male on the cover didn't have a cowboy hat on, and the MC always did.

Another strong argument bolstering my theory comes from another industry, something I've just noticed recently ... TV advertisements used to be kind of ho-hum. Pretty people, product front and center, everyone smiling, miracles happening. Then they brought humor in, the first examples I remember seeing were the Superbowl commercials.

Ever notice how these Superbowl commercials are the ones people actually want to see? People will watch them for months after. They have millions of hits on Youtube. The advertisers are paying premium bucks to show ads during the SB and they have the captive attention of millions of consumers, so they make every second count.

Now we're seeing the same thing with Youtube ads. Advertisements on Youtube come in 3 flavors: (1) the pop-up box, which is cheap to make and has very low click through rates; (2) the ad that runs for 15 seconds and you can't click it off; and (3) an ad that has a 5-second period within which to capture your attention before you can click to skip the ad.

Notice something about those 3 ads:

--Ad #1 is boring with zero creativity and zero attention-grabbing stuff going on. They're cheap to place and get very poor results.
--Ad #2 forces people to watch for 15 seconds, and they tend to be like regular commercials - boring. The costs are higher than Ad#1 having to pay for filming and talent and so on.
--But Ad #3 ... a different animal altogether, much like the Superbowl ads. Sometimes they're so awesome in the first 5 seconds, I don't skip them! I want to actually watch them because I find them entertaining. I'll watch the full ad more than once. Ad companies put a ton of creative energy into these ads because they know they only have 5 seconds to keep you there and get you hooked. I would guess with the computer graphics and stuff I see that they are more expensive than Ad #2. Is it worth the extra cost? Hell yes. You want people to watch the whole ad. Getting people to voluntarily choose to watch your whole ad is golden. That's how you lure the consumer into buying the product.

And something else is going on there psychologically - as a consumer, I appreciate a company that will entertain me while also trying to woo me into investing in their products. Annoying commercials I'm forced to watch piss me off and causes me to develop a prejudice against the company and its products. I really despise those 15-second forced watching ads. I turn off my sound and open up a new tab on my browser and surf for 15 seconds rather than watch. Think about that ... wow. Talk about a waste of time and money for that advertiser. They would have been better off putting more creative energy into their work and giving me something decent to look at.

My point is (I think), that's how we have to look at book covers. You have seconds to capture a reader's interest. Maybe just 2 seconds. If you want them to not click away, you need to trigger something in their heads that makes them want to wait a few more seconds and see more. This leads back into my post about what readers are looking for in their next book, which is to re-create their last awesome reading experience. And like the TV ads, you want to give them a great cover that makes them want to invest their money in your product. A great cover makes them feel as though they're buying a great product (aka, a great story).

I've decided to put most of this in a new post on my blog. I like the idea of comparing book covers to ads on TV and Youtube.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Since coming to these forums I have changed 3 of my book covers, spent some money on promotion, rewritten my author bio, started a mailing list, and so on. When someone says "Hey you need fix this or that" the natural instinct is "OH NO YOU DID NOT JUST CALL MY BABY UGLY!" Once you get past that and can hear advice... then your ready for a blog post like this.  I just wish I found out all of this three years ago before my first book hit! Ah well....  

Thanks to Elle, all the others here. I am slowly adapting.


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

The fundamental key part is missing, write a good book. Quality beats quantity each and every time!


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Sarwah2012 said:


> The fundamental key part is missing, write a good book. Quality beats quantity each and every time!


It's not missing. It's said in very plain terms right there in the post. If you can't write a good story and edit it well too, you won't sell books. Period. This advice is for people who can write but who are having difficulty with the publishing part of the business.

In addition, I have seen that it is not correct to say "quality beats quantity each and every time". If you have one expertly written, very high quality book, and you have your trifecta perfect (cover, blurb, sample), and you promote, you will sell books. BUT. If you write a great quality book and are missing parts of the trifecta, or you don't promote, you will not sell books. AND. AND. AND. If you write a decent book that's not awesome but is decent, and you write a bunch of those decent books, you get the trifecta perfect, and you promote your socks off, you will sell books.

You don't have to take my word for it; go on Amazon and buy a few of the bestselling books out there by prolific authors.

Making a living writing books is not just about writing a great book. There's so much more involved in the publishing aspect, and if you ignore that part of the equation your sales will suffer, pure and simple.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Thanks for sharing, Elle.


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

Ben Mathew said:


> Great post. But I'd like to add one point: while smaller niches have fewer readers, they also have fewer writers writing for them. So niche writers will likely have a larger share of their market. Sure, if the niche is really tiny, that's still not a lot of sales. But it's conceivable that some niche writers can make a living being a small fish in a small pond.
> 
> I don't think that's a trivial point. An important way in which ebooks have revolutionized the industry is that, with zero distribution costs, writers can now write for much smaller niches than before. Will niche writers make it as big as the top sellers in thrillers and romance? No. Will some of them earn more than the #1000 author in thriller or romance? Maybe.


+1

I can't think of a better place for niche writers than indie publishing - because you can at least sell _some_ books (as opposed to letting your book sit on your hard drive). You have to keep your expectations in line with the market in general... however, if you say "write in a popular genre and you'll sell more" you'll mostly depress the hell out of a lot of writers. Especially ones who see dino erotica taking off and think "I'm writing the wrong books." 

It's great to make money - and I'd be the last person to diminish the importance of being able to support yourself with your writing so you can write _more_ - but money isn't everything. Be realistic about what sells more and what sells less - and also know that those are generalizations you can't bank on either. That book that doesn't fit in any genre or follow any "established" trope could be the one that resonates with everyone because you wrote it from your heart.

There's nothing wrong with writing something to pay the bills, but there's also nothing wrong with writing something that won't. There's room for both.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks for the link, Elle. You've hit the nail on the head with your advice. 

I've given up trying to tell people the very same things, because the vast majority of them won't listen. They read things like the warrior forum, and books that tell them all they have to do is throw up some unedited drivel and they'll make a fortune. It invariably leads to these writers thinking it's something Amazon is doing to thwart their sales.  

I also liked your follow-up post about covers. I went and took a look at some in the categories I write in, and I can see a trend in them. It seems urban fantasy most often has people on the cover (at least a female), but there are some that don't, so all is not lost for me when I republish. I'm going to tweak my old cover and use it.


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## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

Great post(s) Elle. Like your commercial comparison .. here are two example commercials that engage that way.




 Dollar Shave Club




 This one doesn't stink


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Thanks for the great post. The cover one is such a biggie and I don't understand why people continually want to fight this battle. It has nothing to do with the quality of your book, it's just packaging. If you fight reader expectations on the packaging, fewer of them will see the part that really does matter.

_Don't fight genre conventions for your cover!_


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> +1
> 
> I can't think of a better place for niche writers than indie publishing - because you can at least sell _some_ books (as opposed to letting your book sit on your hard drive). You have to keep your expectations in line with the market in general... however, if you say "write in a popular genre and you'll sell more" you'll mostly depress the hell out of a lot of writers. Especially ones who see dino erotica taking off and think "I'm writing the wrong books."
> 
> ...


Susan, this was lovely. Thank you for stating it so eloquently.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Thanks for the great post. The cover one is such a biggie and I don't understand why people continually want to fight this battle. It has nothing to do with the quality of your book, it's just packaging. If you fight reader expectations on the packaging, fewer of them will see the part that really does matter.
> 
> _Don't fight genre conventions for your cover!_


Your covers are stunning!! I can tell you totally get it. 



Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> +1
> 
> I can't think of a better place for niche writers than indie publishing - because you can at least sell _some_ books (as opposed to letting your book sit on your hard drive). You have to keep your expectations in line with the market in general... however, if you say "write in a popular genre and you'll sell more" you'll mostly depress the hell out of a lot of writers. Especially ones who see dino erotica taking off and think "I'm writing the wrong books."
> 
> ...


Someone always jumps on these publishing-oriented threads and gives this talk ^^ about writing from the heart, etc. It makes me think you (Susan Kaye Quinn) didn't read the original post that was just a link in the OP (because of its length). I knew some wouldn't, which is why I titled the thread *"Some things to consider if you want to make a living writing books"* If you had read the post on my website, you would have seen that I am not advocating what you mention above. I don't think you and I disagree about anything, really. I just think you misunderstood my advice or the thread, and maybe it's because you didn't read the post that's on another site.

I hope everyone who is interested in this topic takes the time to actually read the post on my website that I've linked to in the OP which is the subject of this thread, because then they will see that it's a thread and advice written specifically for authors who want to make a living writing books. That shouldn't "depress the hell out of" writers who don't care about the money.

This advice is not for authors who just want to write and don't care if they ever make a living from their writing. To assume that I'm advocating "there's something wrong with" writing something that won't pay the bills is incorrect. I've always said to each his own. The advice in this thread will only apply to you if you want to make a living with your novel-writing.

If anyone reading this is not going to read that post on my website, let me just be clear about one thing: I believe you should set your goals (whether to write for the joy of writing only or to write to make a living at it) and then follow the path that will take you there. Can you follow one path and reach both goals? Yes! Just read my original post and there's info there that addresses that issue. A few authors have posted over there in the comments with some valuable stuff too.

What I think is a mistake is to tell writers that they will be the exception to the rule, that they can do something no one else is doing and it will resonate with "everyone" and lead to sales and money to pay the bills, which in my opinion your post does, Susan. To paraphrase, it seemed like you were saying, "if you write it from the heart, people will buy it".

I know many authors who write from the heart but who don't follow the outlined advice I give in my OP, and they don't sell books. And I have never seen an indie author hit it big with a story written from the heart that doesn't fit into any genre.

To put it plainly, when I'm giving someone career advice, I don't tell them to go buy a lottery ticket and cross their fingers. I tell them to work their butts off and follow a proven system of success. I think in the long run that's much more valuable and more apt to help them reach their goals than telling them to just hope they'll get lucky. Do some people get lucky? Maybe. I call luck the moment when opportunity meets preparation. My original article is the preparation part and also the creation of opportunity.


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## DaniO (Oct 22, 2012)

Thanks so much for sharing, Elle. I love that you are so open with your advice. It's incredibly helpful! This post and the post about how you write so many books are so inspirational. They make me believe I really can make a living at this if I put the effort in.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> To put it plainly, when I'm giving someone career advice, I don't tell them to go buy a lottery ticket and cross their fingers. I tell them to work their butts off and follow a proven system of success. I think in the long run that's much more valuable and more apt to help them reach their goals than telling them to just hope they'll get lucky. Do some people get lucky? Maybe. I call luck the moment when opportunity meets preparation. My original article is the preparation part and also the creation of opportunity.


Yes! Some people write as a hobby. They MIGHT make money, but as long as they are enjoying themselves, who cares!

Some, writing is their JOB and their CAREER. When its your JOB you may have to do things you do not prefer to do because you prefer to get a paycheck.

Obviously the closer the two align (your love and your work) the better, but the goals of a JOB are different then the goals of a HOBBY. Since the goals are different the path to follow is different.


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## Sharon Cummin (Mar 19, 2013)

This rocks! Thanks


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Elle, here is me avoiding my writing to echo something. Seems we are on the same wavelength. 



> If you write a decent book that's not awesome but is decent, and you write a bunch of those decent books, you get the trifecta perfect, and you promote your socks off, you will sell books.


You don't even have to promote. You just need to (gasp) write books.

Can you write from the heart and ask for a chance from the universe? Sure.

Are your odds better than someone who will write a romance novel that's tailored to the market?

This is not a coin toss. To make money, the odds have to increase, YOU have to increase them best you can.

This last point might make some hair stand up, but please remember that not everyone starts a Shakespeare. Some people get onto this wild ride to swim away from the cubicle, from the suffocation of the tie. Those are the people who need this advice the most - those who need to write a book after book after book after book to get better WHILE they are making at least SOME money to CONTINUE their fight for freedom and creativity.

Without doing these things, they are dead in the water. With these tips, they can pocket something that gives them hope while their writing improves.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

It's almost impossible not to get better with every book.  This is another argument for doing more writing.  I'm a way better writer of book #23 than I was of book 1.  

But note, I didn't say you don't need to promote.  I strongly believe you must promote, but that promotion shouldn't be creepy or uncomfortable or a time suck.  Details in the original post.


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> Someone always jumps on these publishing-oriented threads and gives this talk ^^ about writing from the heart, etc. It makes me think you (Susan Kaye Quinn) didn't read the original post that was just a link in the OP (because of its length).


I did read the original post. I just re-read it again. I agree with everything you say except the part about niche writing. Here's the bit that stood out:



> I always shake my head a little at people who complain that they don't sell many books, but when I look at the book, it's written for one of the smallest niches there is....
> So what do you do if you want to write for a niche market? Well, either plan on making less money or write a lot more books.


As Ben Mathew pointed out, this isn't necessarily true. Niche writing can be profitable. Could you make more writing in a more popular genre? Possibly. But your post is aimed at people who want to "make a living" at the writing (which I'm completely on board with, and BTW, is a number that can be very different for different people), and this implies that writing for a niche means you won't sell enough books to make a living (unless you write a lot more books... and everyone will make more money with the more books they have. I'm all for being patient while you build your backlist, too.).



ellecasey said:


> What I think is a mistake is to tell writers that they will be the exception to the rule, that they can do something no one else is doing and it will resonate with "everyone" and lead to sales and money to pay the bills, which in my opinion your post does, Susan. To paraphrase, it seemed like you were saying, "if you write it from the heart, people will buy it".


_What I actually said was this:_ That book that doesn't fit in any genre or follow any "established" trope *could be* the one that resonates with everyone because you wrote it from your heart. There's nothing wrong with writing something to pay the bills, but there's also nothing wrong with writing something that won't. *There's room for both.*

People shouldn't think they're the exception to the rule when it comes to marketing or covers or sales in a given genre. Where they absolutely can "do something no one else is doing" (and I think should feel free to do so) is in the writing itself. When you send a message that this isn't true, that people _must _write something mainstream, that's when you're sending a message that says "you're writing the wrong thing - forget about ever making a living with your words."

Maybe you're not really intending to send that message (are you?). I know it's a message that writers hear and it negatively impacts their creative process - I know this because I've literally had people tell me, "if I hear one more person say I have to write in a popular genre or I'll never be a success, I'm just going to scream." Being eyes-wide-open about what books sell more than others doesn't have to mean "write in a popular genre if you want to make a living."

To be clear, I'm not saying you can't write something just because it will sell. And stretching yourself to other genres, that might be selling better than the one you're currently writing in, is perfectly fine, if that's what you want to do. But I don't believe it's necessary to write in a popular genre in order to make a living with your works. And writing from the heart does _not_ mean you're a hobbyist. I believe writing from the heart is a key part of the creative process, and you'll do your best work there. I also believe your best work is more likely to sell... although there's no guarantee of selling _no matter what you write_. Everyone who wants to make a living with their words should treat it like a career - and to me, the most valuable thing I possess in my career-writing-toolbox is my creativity and my uniqueness. I invest time and money in fostering both. I do that because I'm _not_ a hobbyist, I'm a career writer. But I'm also crafting the career I want to have, because indie publishing gives me the freedom to do that... and still make money at it.

I don't think we're actually that far apart, Elle. It's more a matter of perspective, I think.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

DuncanMH said:


> Great post. Thanks for sharing it. I don't think you're in any danger of winning a Razzie for it if you stick it on here; it's exactly the kind of thing that keeps me coming back to the Writers' Cafe.


Me too!


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

As usual Elle, another great post and I'm saving it.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

Loved it, Elle. Thanks for sharing. I think this was my favorite line: 

"The important thing is to be open to the advice of other people you admire, who have attained the goals you’ve set for yourself."


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## Pauline Creeden (Aug 4, 2011)

Great advice Elle! Sharing with author buddies on FB


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## sarracannon (Apr 19, 2011)

> People shouldn't think they're the exception to the rule when it comes to marketing or covers or sales in a given genre. Where they absolutely can "do something no one else is doing" (and I think should feel free to do so) is in the writing itself. When you send a message that this isn't true, that people _must _write something mainstream, that's when you're sending a message that says "you're writing the wrong thing - forget about ever making a living with your words."


I so agree with this. I think the original post is great and full of wonderfully honest information that is good to hear and know and be aware of. However, I also think there's a part of it that does read as depressing and hope-stealing, in a way. I'm sure that wasn't the intention. Elle, you seem like you're just honestly trying to help people understand the truths of this tough business and to open their eyes to how it can be.

However, in a business where many of us feel vulnerable and full of self-doubt, it also seems like dangerous advice. There's no reason to think someone has to write in a more popular genre or publish books at crazy fast speeds just to make a living writing. If someone is writing what they are passionate about and they have true skill, even in a smaller or niche market, I think there's every reason to hope they can find success. Even with a cover that deviates from the norm if they have good reason for it. In fact, a passionate writer in a small market with one solid series and a book every 3 or 4 months might end up having a longer, healthier career than someone constantly chasing trends or copying others.

The other truth is that someone can be a good writer, package their book well, write in a very popular genre and STILL not make a lot of money. Maybe they weren't passionate about that story. Maybe this particular story doesn't resonate with readers. Maybe readers got bogged down with the same old tropes and this just looks like another copy to them. Who knows?

I think it's good to be aware of where your book sits in the marketplace, what might be hindering or helping it, and then decide for yourself how you want to proceed with your career. Go into it with both eyes open, analyze your *personal *goals and then make the decisions that are right for you. If your goal is money, great. Do whatever it takes. Copy others. Write in a popular genre. Whatever you want to try. But if your goal is making a living writing what you LOVE, then write that and then find a way to make it work. Believe in yourself and write the stories of your heart and don't let anyone tell you you'll never make a living if you don't switch to something more mainstream. If you stop writing what you love just to make more money, be aware that it might also steal your joy of writing.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

I wish I even knew what niche I'm in--I feel like I'm a MeiLin-shaped niche! Bad news: no one knows they're looking for a MeiLin-shaped niche. Good news: I'm the only one in it!


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> I wish I even knew what niche I'm in--I feel like I'm a MeiLin-shaped niche! Bad news: no one knows they're looking for a MeiLin-shaped niche. Good news: I'm the only one in it!


Yeah I hear you. I alternate between being depress and encouraged by the advice on this forum.  But I keep on writing, if nothing else it fills my free time with a safe activity.


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> It's not missing. It's said in very plain terms right there in the post. If you can't write a good story and edit it well too, you won't sell books. Period. This advice is for people who can write but who are having difficulty with the publishing part of the business.
> 
> In addition, I have seen that it is not correct to say "quality beats quantity each and every time". If you have one expertly written, very high quality book, and you have your trifecta perfect (cover, blurb, sample), and you promote, you will sell books. BUT. If you write a great quality book and are missing parts of the trifecta, or you don't promote, you will not sell books. AND. AND. AND. If you write a decent book that's not awesome but is decent, and you write a bunch of those decent books, you get the trifecta perfect, and you promote your socks off, you will sell books.
> 
> ...


Yep, you got me. There is more to the story, which is what you were pointing out. It is hard work. It is not a case, of I´ve written a book and done. You have to put effort into all the other elements mentioned in order to succeed....


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

A few things about niche writing:

- The author is often well-acquainted with the audience ...
- Who will all buy the book if the author is well-enough known in the niche (this is in the author's control)
- They will recommend the book to friends
- There is no need for the continuous (expensive) promo route
- You can get away with (no, SHOULD) charge higher prices than if you write for the pop lists (MUCH higher prices)
- Your sales will be steady and continuous and not subject to huge peaks and troughs because they are not fast readers or fast buyers


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Nice post, Elle!  Thanks for sharing it.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> I did read the original post. I just re-read it again. I agree with everything you say except the part about niche writing. Here's the bit that stood out:
> 
> As Ben Mathew pointed out, this isn't necessarily true. Niche writing can be profitable. Could you make more writing in a more popular genre? Possibly. But your post is aimed at people who want to "make a living" at the writing (which I'm completely on board with, and BTW, is a number that can be very different for different people), and this implies that writing for a niche means you won't sell enough books to make a living (unless you write a lot more books... and everyone will make more money with the more books they have. I'm all for being patient while you build your backlist, too.).
> _What I actually said was this:_ That book that doesn't fit in any genre or follow any "established" trope *could be* the one that resonates with everyone because you wrote it from your heart. There's nothing wrong with writing something to pay the bills, but there's also nothing wrong with writing something that won't. *There's room for both.*
> ...


I'm sorry, but I don't know who Ben Mathew is. I feel at a disadvantage. 

You said: _"Could you make more writing in a more popular genre? Possibly." _

I would say no, definitely. If you have the same writing skill and the same dedication to your craft, and the same dedication to your promotional work, you will sell more books if you write for a bigger market. I know many indies who found this out personally, myself included, many of which have become NY Times and USA Today bestselling authors (who still sell very few of their niche market books). It's a numbers game. Take a look at the indies out there on the bestseller lists (which is an indicator of volume sales). They aren't writing in niche markets, or if they are, they have a large portfolio of titles to choose from.

Don't make the mistake of assuming I'm telling people to go write a romance. If that's not what they want to write, they shouldn't do it. If your heart's not in your work, it will show.

Also don't make the mistake of assuming that if someone writes for a large market or if they keep an eye on the business end of things, that they don't write from the heart. It's not a one thing or another situation, business or creativity.

Every single one of my books regardless of genre takes of piece of me with it. That's the kind of writer I am, and most of my readers can see and sense that. I don't sacrifice quality when I write in different genres and I don't sacrifice quality when I consider my career and make choices about what to publish. People who sell a lot of books and make a living selling them are not hacks. They aren't strictly business people. They are artists who also have strong business minds. I don't see room in the market for anyone who writes without heart. It's hollow writing that readers don't resonate with. Just throwing titles up is no long-term career strategy and I didn't advocate anything like that in my post.

You said: _"People shouldn't think they're the exception to the rule when it comes to marketing or covers or sales in a given genre. Where they absolutely can "do something no one else is doing" (and I think should feel free to do so) is in the writing itself. When you send a message that this isn't true, that people must write something mainstream, that's when you're sending a message that says "you're writing the wrong thing - forget about ever making a living with your words." _

We can argue the semantics until the cows come home. I never said in anything I wrote to anyone that they're writing the wrong thing. I shared my opinion about the business of publishing, of maximizing your chances at sales, what I think, what I've experienced and seen in the market over almost 2 years. I stand by my statements that if you want to make a living as a writer, you need to look at the realities of the market and the number of readers in your market in addition to giving it your all with regard to the trifecta, promotions, etc. You're boiling the whole 1,000+ word essay down to me saying you can't write in niche markets and make a living, even after reading it twice. I don't know what else to say to you at this point. You've misunderstood and you're changing the topic from one about the business of publishing to one about the art and creativity involved in writing.

As I stated in the originating post, anyone who reads this advice I've given (or any advice from anyone) needs to consider the source. If you or another writer out there doesn't think I'm credible, they should ignore me. They should listen to your advice or Ben Mathew's advice (Sorry I googled him and I still don't know who he is) instead.



sarracannon said:


> I so agree with this. I think the original post is great and full of wonderfully honest information that is good to hear and know and be aware of. However, I also think there's a part of it that does read as depressing and hope-stealing, in a way. I'm sure that wasn't the intention. Elle, you seem like you're just honestly trying to help people understand the truths of this tough business and to open their eyes to how it can be.
> 
> However, in a business where many of us feel vulnerable and full of self-doubt, it also seems like dangerous advice. There's no reason to think someone has to write in a more popular genre or publish books at crazy fast speeds just to make a living writing. If someone is writing what they are passionate about and they have true skill, even in a smaller or niche market, I think there's every reason to hope they can find success. Even with a cover that deviates from the norm if they have good reason for it. In fact, a passionate writer in a small market with one solid series and a book every 3 or 4 months might end up having a longer, healthier career than someone constantly chasing trends or copying others.
> 
> ...


I really am kind of stunned by this response. You found my post hope-stealing? My advice dangerous? Depressing?

"There's no reason to think someone has to write in a more popular genre or publish books at crazy fast speeds just to make a living writing. If someone is writing what they are passionate about and they have true skill, even in a smaller or niche market, I think there's every reason to hope they can find success..."

Actually, yes, there IS reason to think this. Look at what's happening in publishing. Don't take my word for it. Do the research. I'm not speaking just from my own personal experience. I keep a very close on eye on the industry as part of my business. I see this stuff all the time. What I don't see is people "hoping" for success and getting it. I see people making it happen.

You can "hope" all year long after you've written your book that because you were passionate when you wrote it and that you have true skill that somehow someone will discover you and they will be the one person who knows the right people and the word will spread like wildfire and you'll find great success with that niche book of yours. I find it ironic that you find my message about my experience dangerous and your message of "hoping to find success" safer and more apt to end up in a career as a writer.

"Even with a cover that deviates from the norm if they have good reason for it..." << This is exactly what I was talking about in my post. Just because you love your cover, just because your cover has a hidden message that ties in perfectly with the story, it doesn't mean it's a good cover for your book. I'm not going to repeat what's in my OP. Seriously, covers are advertisements whose only purpose is to induce a reader to get to your blurb.

"In fact, a passionate writer in a small market with one solid series and a book every 3 or 4 months might end up having a longer, healthier career than someone constantly chasing trends or copying others..." You described exactly what I did in my post. If you write in a niche market, you need to just write more books. One solid series and then more books every 3 or 4 books is writing a lot of books. If you do that, in 5 years, you'll have what ... 15+ titles? You do realize you're agreeing with me, right?

I get up and write every day, even most weekends. I LOVE writing, which is probably why I do so much of it. My stories make people cry, want to throw their kindles across the room, laugh out loud in public places. Being creative and being business minded are not mutually exclusive mind-sets. You can be a vulnerable, creative, self-doubting person and be successful too. I am living proof. I believe we agree that you should do what you love and figure out what your personal goals are and then do whatever it takes to reach those goals while also staying joyful about your life. I know for a fact that you can follow my advice and make a career out of writing, and love every minute of it. I'm not the only one doing it.


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

Great advice. I agree wholeheartedly. 
But what I want to know is- how do you know if you're doing it wrong? Because you're not getting sales? And then how do you know which part you are doing wrong? 
It could be any one (or more) of all those things you listed holding you back. You might even have a pretty decent trifecta, but marketing or something else is letting you down. 
Do you just keep shuffling cover and blurb and sample around until you find something that works? What if you've got 2 out of 3 right, but you just don't know which of the three is wrong, and keep changing the things that don't need fixing?
An author can seek out critiques and advice from other authors or their fans, but opinions vary so wildly you're still often left guessing. We have a lot of resources at hand (like your awesome post) to steer us in the right direction (particularly on covers, blurbs are a bit trickier), but to actually get it RIGHT? I wish I knew how.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Selina Fenech said:


> Great advice. I agree wholeheartedly.
> But what I want to know is- how do you know if you're doing it wrong? Because you're not getting sales? And then how do you know which part you are doing wrong?
> It could be any one (or more) of all those things you listed holding you back. You might even have a pretty decent trifecta, but marketing or something else is letting you down.
> Do you just keep shuffling cover and blurb and sample around until you find something that works? What if you've got 2 out of 3 right, but you just don't know which of the three is wrong, and keep changing the things that don't need fixing?
> An author can seek out critiques and advice from other authors or their fans, but opinions vary so wildly you're still often left guessing. We have a lot of resources at hand (like your awesome post) to steer us in the right direction (particularly on covers, blurbs are a bit trickier), but to actually get it RIGHT? I wish I knew how.


A really great set of questions. If I were faced with this dilemma, here's how I might tackle it.

I'd get a pinterest board or some place I could put a bunch of images, and I'd pin up 5 or 6 bestselling titles in my genre (the covers). Then I'd ask readers of this genre what they like about these different covers. To me, that might be a blueprint for a new cover concept. I'd then ask them to look at my cover and ask them to tell me how it doesn't do for them what the other covers did. You could also ask for your readers to send you links to their favorite covers and go through that exercise. This is just good old fashioned market research and focus group stuff.

I'd also spend a lot of time on big book blogs in my genre. For me that's Aestas and Maryse. Those ladies are constantly interacting with readers asking them questions and getting feedback on the best books. They will tell you TONS of great info, and all you have to do is lurk.

I'd look at all the blurbs for those bestsellers and see what the common themes are, styles, keywords, etc, and I'd try to fashion my own blurb to have the same qualities. You might ask your readers to post their favorite blurbs and ask them to tell you why they loved the blurb so much.

I'd ask readers to read my sample and offer them a free ebook for finding errors.

And last but not least, I'd make friends with someone who is doing really well in my genre, and see if they'd be willing to help me. Most of them will say no, but all you need is one yes. But the important thing is not to just ask for help, but to offer help in return. Everyone needs help, even if it's just moral support. I don't care how successful a person gets; all indies need support from one another.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

> I would say no, definitely. If you have the same writing skill and the same dedication to your craft, and the same dedication to your promotional work, you will sell more books if you write for a bigger market. I know many indies who found this out personally, myself included, many of which have become NY Times and USA Today bestselling authors (who still sell very few of their niche market books). It's a numbers game. Take a look at the indies out there on the bestseller lists (which is an indicator of volume sales). They aren't writing in niche markets, or if they are, they have a large portfolio of titles to choose from.


Okay, then!

I feel like this is a challenge. I'm taking it.

I can't--just can't--write contemporary NA. But I think I could write straight-up thrillers. (No paranormal, none of the time, lol.) Thrillers are a huge market. And they have better staying power than romance. YEAH. So I'm doing it. In January. (Because I have two on-going series that will need fed in the coming months and can't get to it sooner.) Will report back with (hopefully) more money in several months.

(I've been copying Elle's twelve-book-a-year strategy this year, and while I'm not going to make three figures, I think I have doubled my income from last year, so, doing as she does has been good for me so far...)


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2013)

Interesting post; thanks for sharing.  Definitely a lot of good advice, especially regarding covers, samples, and blurbs.

My take on the niche issue:

Depending on how narrow the niche is and how prominent your place is within it, I do think it's possible to make a living writing to a niche.  The question to ask is not "is this niche big enough to support me?" because really, the market is so vast that saturation is pretty much impossible.  Also, readers don't all read just one thing--they tend to read a wide variety of things, including things in some pretty narrow niches.  I know I do.

I think the real questions to ask are: "Can I own this niche?" "Can I deliver what the readers in this niche are expecting, and do so in a way that makes my books stand out and shine?" "Can I write in such a way that my books will become the standard against which others will be compared?" Numbers may come into it, but there are so many books on the market that I don't think numbers alone will do the trick.  It's excellence.

You don't need to be a household name to make a living as a writer.  Joe Nobody and Lindsay Buroker aren't household names, and their niches are fairly small, but they write books that readers in those niches are positively ravenous about, and they're taking it to the bank.  The trick, I think, is writing a book that people who read that kind of book want to read.  Not writing a book that everyone wants to read (if there even is such a thing), but writing the best possible books in whatever niche/genre/pidgeonhole you happen to find yourself in.

You claim that the advice "write the best book possible" is there between the lines of this post, but I'm not getting that.  Instead, I'm getting "find a broad readership, because niches can't support working writers." Frankly, that's just an echo of New York.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't know who Ben Mathew is. I feel at a disadvantage.


Some might say knowing Ben Mathew is a disadvantage.


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't know who Ben Mathew is. I feel at a disadvantage.
> 
> ... They should listen to your advice or Ben Mathew's advice (Sorry I googled him and I still don't know who he is) instead.


Ben is the KB poster (above) that I was initially responding to.

As to who people should listen to - I'm confident KBers are capable of deciding that for themselves. I've had solid indie midlist success. Sarra Cannon is a heavy-selling KBer of long standing with 150,000+ sales. We're not just floating in with no indie experience. We obviously have a different viewpoint, but that doesn't make this an attack on you, Elle. I know you're trying to help people, and I think that's fabulous.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> Ben is the KB poster (above) that I was initially responding to.
> 
> As to who people should listen to - I'm confident KBers are capable of deciding that for themselves. I've had solid indie midlist success. Sarra Cannon is a heavy-selling KBer of long standing with 150,000+ sales. We're not just floating in with no indie experience. We obviously have a different viewpoint, but that doesn't make this an attack on you, Elle. I know you're trying to help people, and I think that's fabulous.


GAH! Susan, you write in Science Fiction Dystopian (huge market) and Sarra Cannon went from writing paranormal to writing ... new adult romance! Biggest market there is!  I know both of your names well having seen them around here for the better part of over a year. NEITHER of you write in niche markets, so I'm not surprised that you've both had plenty of financial success.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Ben Mathew said:


> Some might say knowing Ben Mathew is a disadvantage.


I'm sorry, Ben. I shall commit your name to memory.


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## alidawinter (Sep 17, 2013)

This is great:  "If you don’t let the world know about your book, the world will not know about your book."

Thanks for sharing the link to your post!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Don't you just love it when everyone just ignores what you say and carries on the discussion as if you said nothing?

Oh well.

Another thing is also that no one owes you a living. You could be doing all these things with your books and still not make a living. This is the time that you improve your chances greatly with another, different type of book.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Interesting post; thanks for sharing. Definitely a lot of good advice, especially regarding covers, samples, and blurbs.
> 
> My take on the niche issue:
> 
> ...


Joe Nobody has at least 11 titles. He's a machine and very focused on his business (including promoting his work). And like I said about writing in niche markets, if that's your thing, you just need to write more books so the numbers work out for you. You know what you need to make to live, so you can figure out how many books will get you there.

Joe, you yourself have many titles and I remember your older posts talking about upcoming titles. I think you get the numbers thing pretty well.

You and I agree. It's about numbers and it's about excellence. You cannot write crap books and be successful long term.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Don't you just love it when everyone just ignores what you say and carries on the discussion as if you said nothing?
> 
> Oh well.
> 
> Another thing is also that no one owes you a living. You could be doing all these things with your books and still not make a living. This is the time that you improve your chances greatly with another, different type of book.


I'm not sure what you wanted anyone to say. You shared your knowledge about niches but there wasn't a question in there or an argument was there? My post didn't say to not write niche genre novels, so I just assumed you were adding to the discussion.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> I'm not sure what you wanted anyone to say. You shared your knowledge about niches but there wasn't a question in there or an argument was there? My post didn't say to not write niche genre novels, so I just assumed you were adding to the discussion.


Just in general. Happens to me a lot.

Anyway, people were talking about making a living/not making a living out of niche markets.


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> A really great set of questions. If I were faced with this dilemma, here's how I might tackle it.
> 
> I'd get a pinterest board or some place I could put a bunch of images, and I'd pin up 5 or 6 bestselling titles in my genre (the covers). Then I'd ask readers of this genre what they like about these different covers. To me, that might be a blueprint for a new cover concept. I'd then ask them to look at my cover and ask them to tell me how it doesn't do for them what the other covers did. You could also ask for your readers to send you links to their favorite covers and go through that exercise. This is just good old fashioned market research and focus group stuff.
> 
> ...


Thank you. It's so wonderful not just to get "advice", but to get a real list of focused activities to help move forward! You're my new hero


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Just in general. Happens to me a lot.
> 
> Anyway, people were talking about making a living/not making a living out of niche markets.


I liked your points.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I make a fairly decent living in many consider a rather small niche market. It can be done and not necessarily by producing novels by the hundred. I'm not arguing with Elle, but there is more than on way through the forest.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> I make a fairly decent living in many consider a rather small niche market. It can be done and not necessarily by producing novels by the hundred. I'm not arguing with Elle, but there is more than on way through the forest.


JR, you have a lot of books out there.  What is it now? 15 titles? At least one series, too, right? That's how making a living is done in niches. Many titles = many sales. Boom.



Selina Fenech said:


> Thank you. It's so wonderful not just to get "advice", but to get a real list of focused activities to help move forward! You're my new hero


Maybe someone else will chime in with some ideas. I hope the ones I gave help!


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Another thing is also that no one owes you a living. You could be doing all these things with your books and still not make a living. This is the time that you improve your chances greatly with another, different type of book.


This times 1000. There's simply no such thing as a magic bullet.

(Except my super fantastic thriller that will be Gillian Flynn meets Chelsea Cain meets Thomas Harris and will take over the WORLD!!!!)

Um... yeah. Carry on, everyone. I had a really freaking good writing day today, and I'm in an awesome mood.

BTW, I also wanted to say that I liked a lot of the stuff that Susan said too.

Aaaand... I'm out.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

valeriec80 said:


> This times 1000. There's simply no such thing as a magic bullet.
> 
> (Except my super fantastic thriller that will be Gillian Flynn meets Chelsea Cain meets Thomas Harris and will take over the WORLD!!!!)
> 
> ...


High five on that writing day!


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> You and I agree. It's about numbers and it's about excellence. You cannot write crap books and be successful long term.


Not exactly. I think it can be toxic to approach this with the question "is this niche big enough for me to make a living at it?" because the truth is that it probably is, and the thing that's really holding you back is something else. We all have a limit to how much we can fret about.

Also, I am not a fast writer. The only reason I've been able to put out so many books this year is because they're short.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> JR, you have a lot of books out there.  What is it now? 15 titles? At least one series, too, right? That's how making a living is done in niches. Many titles = many sales. Boom.
> 
> Maybe someone else will chime in with some ideas. I hope the ones I gave help!


I have one or two or ten titles out there and a couple of series. 

But remember that is years of work. I don't put out four or five novels a year. And I definitely don't write in any of the genres that are considered hot sellers for e-books. I have enough titles out that even when sales are weak as they have been this month, I'm not going to starve or be kicked out on the street. As you say, many titles are a help. But I walked in the door of self-publishing as I re-gained the rights to a couple of titles, took back two that were with an agent, and had one or two more in the trunk.

I have never been and no doubt never will be a fast writer--except on forum posts.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

valeriec80 said:


> ...There's simply no such thing as a magic bullet.


Yes, there's no magic bullet but I think there is a formula that once an author discovers feels like magic. Elle is giving us part of the recipe for that magic formula that worked for her. Is it the only recipe? No. But she is awesome enough to open the cupboards, get the bowls out, preheat the oven and hand us a mixing spoon in the hopes we learn something new, produce something awesome and maybe even find that magic formula for ourselves.


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## LG Castillo (Jun 28, 2012)

Excellent advice as always, Elle. Thanks for taking the time to share.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

I just wanted to say again, Elle you rock! Thanks for all you do around here. This forum is useful because of people like you that spend the time to reach back and help people. THANKS!!!


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2013)

On my covers, I try to have a single focal point. I do a great deal of market research before release, and I have found the most positive reactions are from art that is not too busy. A cover can be distracting and be a turn off to a reader looking to try a new author.

What I do is take roughly 20-30 pictures (none of which I end up using. I get them from various artist sites) and use social media to determine the top 5. I then take the aspects of each that people liked most and work on a cover based on that. It basically what marketing agencies do, only I do it on a smaller scale.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Matt Ryan said:


> Yes, there's no magic bullet but I think there is a formula that once an author discovers feels like magic.


Man, I hope to find my formula someday. I'm really open to trying stuff, and I've had more success than a lot of other people, but there are also a lot of other people that have had more success than me.

For me, nothing that works once seems to work again, leastways, not quite as well, anyhow. I've worked hard on every single one of the twenty-nine novels I've published and I can tell you definitively that the amount of work I put into a novel has no effect whatsoever on how well it sells. This year, I've published ten books, mostly in the same-ish kinds of genres, mostly new adult paranormal/sci fi romance, (but I did try contemporary. Twice. Really. I _tried_.) three in the same series, and I gotta tell you, the results are in no way formulaic. All over the freaking place.

It's why, in my experience anyway, success is a fluke. Luck. Lightning strike. (And most often, a gift from the Amazon algorithms)

I think you're a bit more likely to get hit again once you get hit, but you sure aren't guaranteed it every time you put out a book. (Or even every other book. Or every fifth book you put out, for that matter.)

Not that I am complaining, mind. I'm a lucky, super blessed person who gets to make things up for a living, and I thank the universe for giving me that opportunity by making as many freaking lightning rods as I can. 'Cause, you never know when the lightning is coming.


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## Charles Harvey (Dec 29, 2010)

ellecasey said:


> I just wrote a monster post on my blog with this title. I would post it here, but I'm afraid it would win some sort of razzie award for being the longest-winded post ever put on KB, so I won't.
> 
> Here's the link if you want to check it out.
> 
> http://ellecasey.com/some-things-to-consider-if-you-want-to-make-a-living-writing-books/


Great advice all around. But one thing seems to be hard to escape, and that's the capriciousness of some retailers. What do you do when new programs are introduced and sales plummet? The indie writer/publisher seems to be the one getting pulled around by the nose. Many of us have seen new programs or some tool taken away that has harmed sales. Case in point: I had started selling a lot more on B&N than Amazon. The numbers were climbing for my short stories. So no we're not talking big potatoes. As soon as B&N introduced that Nook Press crap over Pubit my sales dropped significantly. It went from 50 one month to 34 the next (They introduced Nook Press in mid month I think) Then it went down to 11 and stayed. I think it climbed to 14 or 16 before I got frustrated and yanked the stories and decided to go through Smashwords into B&N. We all know the story of Amazon's algorithms. And KDP select. MAYBE your book is supposed to gain momentum and readers after your free giveaway. But what does the algorithm do? Sink them right to the bottom within hours after free is over. You would think they would keep you visible for a week.
Even if certain retailers have big publishers by the nose on pricing, they still give them front row presence. And I'll bet they are making money. But I will keep writing because it's what I love to do. I love it when a voice or idea pops in my head and I have to sit down and run with it. I'm exploring other genres and seeing where it goes. I see some poorly written stuff with blazing melodramatic covers selling in good numbers, despite blurbs that look like they were written by 8th graders. 
The key is a bit about serendipity and finding a popular genre wave and riding it. Once that happens we can go back to writing poetry or literary pieces.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

This business is like most others.  You'll always be at the whim of someone else's business decisions no matter where you work.  Partners, suppliers, the stock or commodities markets ... the list goes on and on of entities that can throw you curveballs.  The best way to approach it in my mind is to stay positive, be flexible, keep your eye on the industry and be ready to make changes as changes are needed, and build that mailing list!  The more direct access to you have to your readers, the better off you'll be in the long run.

Most of the indies who are from successful mid-list to top of the heap have been around for at least a year or more.  They've weathered a few algo changes, pubit to Nook, iTunes error messages, and all the rest.  None of them run around like Chicken Little when a change comes around; instead, they look in all directions, email and message author friends, and come up with a game plan to move forward with.  That's one reason you're seeing so much cross-promotion going on.  Teamwork works.


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