# Free Rank Wonkiness - SECOND Charting for Oct - Page 4, Post 99



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Need moar data!

Sooo, it's beginning to look like a long-lasting glitch or a MAJOR algo change in the freebie ranks hit on Sept 15.

Let's figure out which! I'm collecting data from a pool of 150 freebie owners today, although not everyone there qualifies to play or will choose to play. You can help add to the collective IF your book meets the following criteria:

A) It's on Select free promo right now
*OR*
B) It's a permafree on promo right now

*AND* (applies to BOTH A and B)

C) It has MORE sales today than it did yesterday.

Got that? (A or B) + C

We need to be consistent to get an accurate picture of what's going on. If we're watching rank, that means we need books that are gaining to get to that rank, not just passing through it as they fall or maintaining it because of bloated history.

If your title meets the requirement, here's what I would love for you to do:

* In the US morning after about 5am and before 10am CT (6-11am ET, 3-8am PT), jot down the book's rank on .com.

* Check your Sales Graph and see how many downloads you had today (Wednesday) ONLY on the .com site. That's very important to restrict it to .com.

* Record the stats here (or PM me):

*- Your book's ASIN** (in case I have questions, so I can check the Tracker tool or the product page, etc) - I won't share the ASIN directly beyond this forum or the PM. You can also provide downloads and rank here without the ASIN to maintain your anonymity. If it fits the data curve, I'll love to include it. If it doesn't fit, and I can't verify what and why, I'll have to ignore it.

*- # of downloads on .com only
- Current rank on .com
- Select of Permafree*



> *Example:*
> 
> B008THBM5S
> 277 DLs
> ...


Let's see how tomorrow goes and we'll probably do it on Friday morning too. A book can play just once on either day or on both days, _providing it continues to meet eligibility requirements.
_
I'll post out a chart (without the ASINs) when we're all done, compare it to what life was like pre-Sept 15, and together we'll see if we can make sense of it.

Oh, and if you're in the SPRT FB group, too, please just post here OR there.

Thank you!


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## LindsayBuroker (Oct 13, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> * In the US morning after about 5am and before 10am CT (6-11am ET, 3-8am PT), jot down the book's rank on .com.
> 
> * Check your Sales Graph and see how many downloads you had today (Wednesday) ONLY on the .com site. That's very important to restrict it to .com.


Just to clarify, we're checking the sales rank tomorrow (Thursday) at (for me) 3-8AM PST? And recording only Wednesday's downloads?

I have a Bookbub on a Select freebie today so should be able to report if I can remember to get on the computer that early. 

P.S. I would love to hear more about this glitch. What do you suspect? *gazes with rapt curiosity at Phoenix*


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

LindsayBuroker said:


> Just to clarify, we're checking the sales rank tomorrow (Thursday) at (for me) 3-8AM PST? And recording only Wednesday's downloads?
> 
> I have a Bookbub on a Select freebie today so should be able to report if I can remember to get on the computer that early.
> 
> P.S. I would love to hear more about this glitch. What do you suspect? *gazes with rapt curiosity at Phoenix*


Pfft. 

Correct on the procedure., Lindsay. Although BookBub'd books are probably not the best candidates for this. Massive enough downloads are breaking through whatever the issue is. So BB books are still hitting in the Top 10. What is impossible to know when there is that much competition for the top spots is what and where the true hit is.

For instance, a couple of weeks ago, we had a BB book on Day 2 of being Select free. On Day 1, the book had 1028 .com downloads. Best rank until the BookBub mail went out was #1594. Obviously this book was affected. It had 32,200 .com DLs on Day 2. It hit a rank of #4. Were the previous 1000 downloads still not being seen by the algo? If they HAD been seen, would the rank have been #3? Well, at that level, it's impossible to know because we don't know the circumstances of Book #2 or #3. Like with the Paid rank, once you're in to the Top 10, it's pretty much a free-for-all. #5 could have 5000 sales, while #4 could have 10,000. Between #20 and 100, the list is MUCH less volatile and much more predictable.

Do share your numbers, because all data is instructive! I just don't think it will be AS instructive in this case.

I only have limited data right now, which is why I need MOAR.

<speculation>
Speculation ONLY, it seems what I'm desperately hoping is a glitch cropped up on Sept 15. It SEEMS to affect only newly promoted titles -- permafrees on promotion and Select titles going free. Permafrees maintaining their rank ranges seem to maybe still be properly inserted into the calculations. Titles that should easily be in the Top 100 or in any rank range, really (other than the Top 20 tier) aren't coming close to where they would have ranked pre-Sept 15.

Great if this were a way to punish scammers and suppress their influence, but the very titles that ARE getting through seem to only be the titles with massive downloads. So this is actually HELPING the scammers who work with bots grab and hold visibility. So either it was an algo change gone bad OR a glitch. But again, I'm working with limited data right now -- 11 titles that I manage, half of which had no promo mention anywhere during their free days so my feeling is that it's not an impact against any one ad site or group of ad sites, and another 11 in a current group promo, all of which experienced the glitch yesterday whether they had ad support or not (the group promo itself begins today).</speculation>

So waiting to add more data points before I call KDP and try to find someone who knows what I'm even talking about to explain the issue to. Or to regroup if this is the new reality. *shudder for anyone unable to hitch a ride on BookBub or the BotMobile.*


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

PhoenixS said:


> So this is actually HELPING the scammers who work with bots grab and hold visibility.


And pointing out to Amazon which eBooks are riding the BotMobile (I'm totally stealing this word!) if they also follow certain other patterns.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Gator said:


> And pointing out to Amazon which eBooks are riding the BotMobile (I'm totally stealing this word! -  ) if they also follow certain other patterns.


Ooh, there's a thought. Easy enough to go down the BookBub mail each day to see what should be there at those quantities. Hmmm...


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

Hi Phoenix, here's one for you:

ASIN: B00M30BF5Y
1117 downloads on Weds on .com only
924 current rank as of 6:30AM
Permafree

Please keep us posted of your findings


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

6:30 AM Thursday morning, EDT.

ASIN B00GDDAT5E
1403 downloads Wednesday (.com only, this title only)
#715 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)
Select


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

I don't know the time conversions (I'm in Australia), but my Permafree is in the SPRT promo, and it's ranking right now is 814 on .com. I've had 267 downloads yesterday on .com, and 14 today.

It usually moves 10-20 copies a day, but there was a spike of 100 about 3 days ago. ASIN is B011LKBENE.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Yeah, mine seems really out of sync with the other numbers that are being reported. No idea why.

It does occur to me to wonder if the free downloads are being reported properly?


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**********


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

My book is quite old, released summer 2014. Could that be a factor? I did only make it permafree this month. It was in Select previously for about a year.


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## LindsayBuroker (Oct 13, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> Pfft.
> 
> Correct on the procedure., Lindsay. Although BookBub'd books are probably not the best candidates for this. Massive enough downloads are breaking through whatever the issue is. So BB books are still hitting in the Top 10. What is impossible to know when there is that much competition for the top spots is what and where the true hit is.
> 
> ...


Gotcha! I'll keep an eye out when I run promos on the smaller sites.

Here's the BB gorilla:

- Your book's ASIN*

B01FWOW72W

- # of downloads on .com only

25,000

- Current rank on .com

2 at 8am PST this morning

- Select of Permafree

Select


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

LindsayBuroker said:


> Gotcha! I'll keep an eye out when I run promos on the smaller sites.
> ...


Thanks, Lindsay! You probably noted that within an hour or so of your rank capture, no fewer than FIVE titles leapfrogged yours into #1-5 Free positions. FIVE titles with zilch promo anywhere for the exceptionally popular permafree (only, you know, not suddenly that exceptionally popular) and the 4 others that are Select that only went free 6 hours before they hit in the Top 5. They're falling in rank now (except the #1 title), although still in the Top 10. Which means there are 6 botted books (IMO) that are now in front of yours on the chart. 
_______

Back in a few minutes with the first report-out of what yesterday's ranksLs looked like compared to what they would have looked like in early September...


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Here's the first round of reports with 44 data points now. I've excluded the books that had BB runs. The chart on the left has the date of the reported downloads, the number of downloads that day, the actual rank captured after the reporting lag, and what that rank would have/should have been prior to Sept 12, which is now when I have the earliest report of wonkiness.

The top graph on the right (NEW PROFILE) shows the actual rank-to-download numbers. See how it's a very jagged, angry graph in dire need of anti-anxiety meds?

The bottom graph (OLD PROFILE) shows the nice, smooth curve that should be produced by a happy, well-adjusted rank calculation.










____









**********


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Phoenix, are you wedded to the 15th September date as the starting point? Because I noticed this effect on a freebie on 10th September. Details, in case they're useful:

ASIN: B01H0TO1Q2
Downloads: 2593
Best free rank: #229
Book in Select, 1st day free.

Whereas a virtually identical promo in July, with 3244 d/l hit a rank of #36


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Phoenix, are you wedded to the 15th September date as the starting point? Because I noticed this effect on a freebie on 10th September. Details, in case they're useful:
> 
> ASIN: B01H0TO1Q2
> Downloads: 2593
> ...


Not wedded to the 15th at all! It's simply a matter of finding the folk like you who had promos earlier (I had a free run that started on Sept 15 so that was my benchmark date) who kept track and know what a free run should do numbers-wise. In fact, I revised that to the 12th in the post right above yours. I'll now revise to the 10th. And yes, these results are useful and will be included. Thank you!


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## shunterni (May 2, 2016)

This explains something I was wondering about a lot. I don't have hard data to contribute this moment, but I will in a couple days, after Patty's Promo.

I just made my first in series permafree on the 20th, late at night. The next day, with no promo whatsoever, it shot to 167 downloads on .com. My rank never even broke 5,000. At the time I was ecstatic, but there were no follow-up sales, and I now believe that some bot used my book to camouflage their own activities. At any rate, I spiked my own downloads in a BKnights promo on the 26th, got 184 downloads on .com, only made it up to 4k or so this time. According to your chart, I should have hit 1000 at least, but I never even got close. I had no idea what it took to reach those, as I've never done free before. 

Today I don't have a promo running, but have more downloads than yesterday. My rank has fallen 500 spots. Promo downloads will probably start tomorrow as a lot of emails go out early (including mine), so I will post my number then. Thanks for spotting this and letting people know. I hope I can help.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

I thought the free charts were based purely on downloads, so the higher the number of downloads, the higher you we on the charts. More like the bestseller charts than the pop lists. If so, they're not run on an algorithm, as such. Or they weren't.

Leads me to wonder if they're excluding some kinds of downloads from the count. No idea what though.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Rinelle Grey said:


> I thought the free charts were based purely on downloads, so the higher the number of downloads, the higher you we on the charts. More like the bestseller charts than the pop lists. If so, they're not run on an algorithm, as such. Or they weren't.
> 
> Leads me to wonder if they're excluding some kinds of downloads from the count. No idea what though.


Maybe it's another way to cut down on freeloads.


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## Aaronhodges (Dec 19, 2015)

Hmm poop, hope this has been resolved before my promo running at the end of October! Arg 😟


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Rinelle Grey said:


> I thought the free charts were based purely on downloads, so the higher the number of downloads, the higher you we on the charts. More like the bestseller charts than the pop lists. If so, they're not run on an algorithm, as such. Or they weren't.
> 
> Leads me to wonder if they're excluding some kinds of downloads from the count. No idea what though.


Well, the bestseller lists are algo-driven, in that the calculations include instructions for how to weight history, rate of decay and likely if-then statement in the event of a "tie" in rank, etc. Free ranks follow(ed) the same types of parameters and instructions. Rank didn't just start over each day.

One thing I noticed with one of my personal books during its Sept 15-19 promo was something that would have been absolutely impossible just a few days before. First, downloads to rank:
484 - #1627
2924 - #323
697 - #855
1307 - #82
376 - #883

On the fourth day, the rank improved with coughs and fits and starts to about where it would be with 1307 DLs + a handful of carryovers from the previous day. That means the algo saw at least that many DLs to count. So the book started Day 5 with a rank of #82 and ended the day with a rank of #883. With a typical half-life daily rate of decay built in, that should have been IMPOSSIBLE for it to have fallen in rank that far and that fast. Even if the algo only saw a grand total of 1400 DLs -- because it did rank the book at #82 -- and somehow dropped the other 4400 DLs, even with zero downloads on Day 5, that rank should have reflected one-half of those 1400 DLs or 700 DLs, which normally would have resulted in a rank around #200.

Had the book continued free with 0 DLs per day, then Day 6 would have been credited with 350 DLs, Day 7 with 175, Day 8 with 88, Day 9 with 44, etc.

With a rank of #883 being about 150 DLs, it shouldn't have hit that rank until sometime in Day 8 -- even with zero downloads on Days 5, 6 and 7. Given a fairly steady ecosystem -- and there's absolutely no indication of it being otherwise -- the math that the bestseller list algo uses, which is likely pretty much the same the freebie list uses, would make the behavior I saw impossible. Not just unlikely, but impossible. Because that isn't how THAT math works.

So there's either a glitch -- servers being stopped and restarted, servers not handing stuff off to other servers to include in algo calculations, something physical and technical happening consistently for at least 3 weeks now -- or there's new math at play that looks nothing like the old math.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks for the explanation Phoenix, that makes more sense. 

I'll report on my ranking/downloads again this evening, try to get it around the same time as yesterday. So far I have a slight ranking drop, with slightly less downloads.


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## damienboyes (Sep 12, 2015)

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with anything, but I went permafree at the beginning of September. Since then I've run a BK Knights promo and a Freebooksy augmented by a small daily Facebook buy. I'm hovering at ~20 DL per day and around the 3000 - 4000 rank. Thats all fine but my alsoboughts are now populated by these weird yellow-text covers. All different authors with different topics but all using crappy stock photos and all with the same bright yellow for their title and author name. I don't know what's going on, whether its bots or what, but it sure is weird.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

damienboyes said:


> I'm not sure if this has anything to do with anything, but I went permafree at the beginning of September. Since then I've run a BK Knights promo and a Freebooksy augmented by a small daily Facebook buy. I'm hovering at ~20 DL per day and around the 3000 - 4000 rank. Thats all fine but my alsoboughts are now populated by these weird yellow-text covers. All different authors with different topics but all using crappy stock photos and all with the same bright yellow for their title and author name. I don't know what's going on, whether its bots or what, but it sure is weird.


This looks like a scam using Freebooksy promos. Price a book free and then change the price back to paid before the promo is due to be over. Get accidental purchases and rank increase. Lots of these ugly-ass covers with wacky lettering mucking up many people's also-boughts. People have complained about it to Freebooksy, from what I understand. Freebooksy accepts all books without any vetting so you run the risk of getting this kind of scammer.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Today's update: same book as yesterday is now at 967 after 149 downloads.


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

Here's something weird. My book (AISN B00M30BF5Y) only had 417 downloads yesterday (No promo so must be latecomers to previous day's promo) and has a rank of 987 at 7:15 EST this morning. I'd have expected a much more dramatic drop-off since it was ranked 924 yesterday with more than twice as many downloads.


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

This is for a newly made permafree. The book was in Select for the last couple years. I haven't run any paid promos on this yet, only telling different segments of my mailing list about it on September 25, 29 & 30.
ASIN: B00SC7DK2S
221 downloads; rank # 1554 (Sept. 26) Newsletter
97 downloads; rank # 1618 (Sept. 27)
109 downloads; rank #1622 (Sept 2
183 downloads; rank # 1389 ish (Sept. 29) Newsletter
Today's Rank # 1052 (Sept. 30 as of 9am Eastern Time)

The first three ranks I grabbed from author central sales rank and the fourth rank was yesterday morning's, going by memory. So not accurate data points.

***That news about Freebooksy is disheartening. I haven't had anything free in 6 months or more, but freebooksy used to be great. I have one next week.  Guess in the future I will stick with multi-author cross promotions and newsletter swaps. One way of killing off the scammers. ***


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Lady Gargoyle said:


> ***That news about Freebooksy is disheartening. I haven't had anything free in 6 months or more, but freebooksy used to be great. I have one next week.  Guess in the future I will stick with multi-author cross promotions and newsletter swaps. One way of killing off the scammers. ***


Once the problem was pointed out to them, FreeBooksy were very, very swift to take action and it's now fixed.


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## nikkykaye (Sep 24, 2016)

Phoenix, things are definitely wonky now, especially once I look at those charts and graphs. I had *2825* downloads yesterday (and 1856 the day before) and sat at 165 pretty much the entire day. I know rankings in romance are more competitive, but I thought I'd crack the top 100 for that... Then again, this is my first promo of this nature, so I'm not sure what I expected...

Thanks for looking at all this data!


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## shunterni (May 2, 2016)

9:15am my book What Boys Are Made Of was at #9315. More downloads on the 29th then on the 28th.

As we speak, I *already have more downloads than yesterday *(44 vs. 31) and my rank has _dropped_ to #10,379. 

B01CZEN4N8
31 downloads Thursday
#9315
Permafree


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## damienboyes (Sep 12, 2015)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Once the problem was pointed out to them, FreeBooksy were very, very swift to take action and it's now fixed.


That's good to hear. They're one of my go-to promo sites. Doesn't help the crap in my also boughts now though...


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## Tim_A (May 25, 2013)

16:15 UTC Saturday

B00CVTK6Q6
90 downloads (60 on Friday)
#2971
Permafree

You didn't ask & it's probably not on the same algo, but in UK store, it's at #874 for 14 downloads (5 yesterday)


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Thank you to everyone who's responded here, on the SPRT FB page and via PM. I've read everything, but I'm slow on the individual replies right now. SO MUCH wonkiness being reported right now to keep up with, from the freebies to the KU reads to the alsobots to even more bot-driven books taking over the free lists. I think earlier today there were only THREE legitimate titles in the Top 20 that *didn't* get there on the BotMobile(TM).

It's costing authors more and more to compete with these scammers. And now Amazon is rewarding the scam artists and penalizing Select authors. Really, Amazon, something's backfired big time there.

A number of high-profile authors are picking up the KU page reads guantlet, so I'll continue to pursue the freebie issue since that's less-understood and most authors have a tough time knowing what to expect to begin with.

Here are yesterday's updates, mostly from Sept 29. I've added another 4 datapoints since this capture, and SPOILER: The graphs don't look any different.

I'm hearing a September 5 date being bandied about as to the start of the KU page reads issue. If that's the case, then the freebie issue might have started then as well (I've gotten reports that trace back to the 10th at least). Along with the alsobot issue.

A quick note about permafrees. It still *looks* like those books that were permafree as of Sept 5 and which haven't been promoted since are being grandfathered out of whatever the issue is. So they're maintaining their ranks. BUT any that have gone on promotion since the 5th are being subject to the same changes Select books are seeing.

So, chart and graphs of the free books updated through Sept 29. I used only download numbers that were greater than any reported previously so that we're looking at numbers to attain a rank and not at ranks books are falling through on their way back down (negative direction) the lists.










Here is the data filtered to look at the first 1000 ranks and the download numbers needed to get there.










And the data filtered to look at just the books with 1000+ downloads reported and their ranks. Note that the highest rank any of the books in this data set achieved was #141. Where, in the old model, 15 of these books would have likely made it into the Top 100.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Put on Free 9/30 for Patty's Promo.

B008LDQESU
516 downloads (109 yesterday, 41 total in UK)
Rank: 1,441


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## Raquel Lyon (Mar 3, 2012)

I can't help with the specific data help requested, but my permafree's downloads dropped like a stone on precisely the 15th (I mean down to practically zero, and they've stayed in single figures ever since) What made me post was the mention of alsoboughts above. Because, at that time, my alsoboughts suddenly filled with loads of Russian books, and maybe you might find that interesting. (BTW I haven't done any promos for two months.) Thankfully most of them have gone now, but there are still some there. I really hope this is just a glitch and gets sorted soon. Thank you, Phoenix, for investigating the strange goings on.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

I posted the following info on a different thread a little while ago, but thought I should add it here as well in case it's helpful to the issue being investigated.

It's not a "free" issue, but is KU related:

On Sep 8, I tried to download a book using my KU subscription, but the KU button didn't work. It just kept reverting to the purchase option when I would click the "Read Free" button.

I called Amazon customer service and the rep told me that they had been having a problem with a lot of KU books for the past week, but they were working to get it resolved. He had me try a few troubleshooting things (refreshes, clearing borrows out of my account, put me on hold while they worked on it behind the scenes). Nothing worked and he ultimately deposited a $$ credit in my account so that I could just purchase a copy of the book instead of borrowing it.

He reiterated several times during the call that there was a problem they were working on for the past week, and also asked if I could name any other books where I'd seen the same problem occur (so clearly they were still trying to track it down).

Anyway, based on my call I'd say that the problem started at least as early as the Sep 5 date your estimating.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Phoenix, where can I find out more about the KU reads issue? I haven't heard much about it here, and can't find a thread, but I'm seeing VERY low page reads for my new release, and am concerned!


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

Hi Phoenix, thanks for all the work you do gathering data and sharing it with us all. Have you been able to get any sense yet of whether the free downloads are still making it through to the poplist rankings?

Between this and the also-bot issue WasAnn mentioned, I'm wondering if I should cancel the free promo I've got booked in a week or so


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

MelanieCellier said:


> Hi Phoenix, thanks for all the work you do gathering data and sharing it with us all. Have you been able to get any sense yet of whether the free downloads are still making it through to the poplist rankings?


Not Phoenix, but my most recent free promo definitely made it through to the poplists, despite not reaching the expected free rank. It's still well-placed two weeks later.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Rinelle Grey said:


> Phoenix, where can I find out more about the KU reads issue? I haven't heard much about it here, and can't find a thread, but I'm seeing VERY low page reads for my new release, and am concerned!


I'd like to know more about that, too. I've had two new releases this week month (ha! I wish!), and neither have shown the expected pattern of pages read. It used to be a quick start and then a gradually rising graph over 2+ weeks before levelling out. Now it's a slow start, a mini blip and then settling at a low level.

I also noticed a big drop-off in pages read in mid-July, around the time several books were re-enrolled in Select. Could be coincidence, could be just a natural decline, who knows.


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## JTriptych (Aug 23, 2015)

B0191XR2NO
271 downloads Oct. 1st (Patty's promo- thanks, Patty)
current rank as of right now 1352


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks for compiling this!


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## shunterni (May 2, 2016)

My data from yesterday is already up in the Facebook group, but I also want to add that my alsoboughts have not updated in about a month. I'm in Patty's SFF right now, which is known for changing also-boughts around, and I ran a BKnights, again known for scrambling things.

Nothing. My also-boughts are still filled with the same MM Romances they were after my last promo early September, with maybe one or two added that came out before my book went permafree on the 20th. I don't know of the issues are tied together, but I've been keeping close track of my book for the last two weeks and literally, those haven't changed.

Thanks for compiling this. At least I know I'm not alone :/


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## dragontucker (Jul 18, 2014)

I am about to book a Freebooksy. Is the issue still happening with them? Or they did fix it?


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

dragontucker said:


> I am about to book a Freebooksy. Is the issue still happening with them? Or they did fix it?


They fixed it.


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## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

JTriptych said:


> B0191XR2NO
> 271 downloads Oct. 1st (Patty's promo- thanks, Patty)
> current rank as of right now 1352


I got 559 downloads through .com yesterday (Oct 1) and my rank peaked at 1466  Mine is a select freebie, just turned to free for Oct 1 and 2.

It's hovering around 1900 now (about 90 downloads so far today.) Back in August I did a free promo on the same book, best day was 220 downloads, and I was ranking around 700.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

Any suggestions for scheduling promotions in the future?


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

P.J. Post said:


> Any suggestions for scheduling promotions in the future?


Pray?

I've got most of my sites booked for a big promo run starting Oct 20 and am booking for a client starting Nov 3. If I find I'm wasting more money than the visibility it should be gaining me, then I'll be just as happy to move our catalog out wide again.

There are 7 scambot books in the Top 20 free right now. There's one "publisher" who's been putting at least 3 or 4 titles into the Top 20 every day for the last couple of weeks that I've seen since I've been paying closer attention. That's in addition to the 2-10 titles others are doing the same with.

When an average of HALF the titles in the Top 20 visibility spots are manipulating the system -- and legitimate titles can no longer break into the Top 100 -- is the system even still viable?


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

How an earth can you tell if they are low? Its not like you can determine how much one person reads.


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

So you reckon it's still worth trying free promos for now, Phoenix? 

I'm pretty nervous about the report earlier in the thread of books disappearing from also-boughts when the book was put to free. Even if the downloads make it to the poplists, losing the also-boughts would more than counteract any benefits from the promo.


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## phil1861 (Dec 22, 2011)

MelanieCellier said:


> So you reckon it's still worth trying free promos for now, Phoenix?
> 
> I'm pretty nervous about the report earlier in the thread of books disappearing from also-boughts when the book was put to free. Even if the downloads make it to the poplists, losing the also-boughts would more than counteract any benefits from the promo.


Good question: ran a select promo end of Sept 29/30, two days, was sitting at 7K in ranking before it went free

Hit 230 on the second day in the free rankings
Sold 10 copies next day then nothing
That title has been falling like a rock ever since, now at 21K. It had been at 4K to 6K for the last seven months, sales and borrows wise had been good but the promotion squashed visibility somehow. 
From the page reads tracking, this title had been updated numerous times early in Sept to change categories.

At the moment, promoter beware I suppose. This had the opposite affect of a spike in sales.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**********


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## phil1861 (Dec 22, 2011)

Good as I couldn't interest the two people I talked to over there into doing anything but checking my page reads with their next higher up. 

But, both the first level guy and his next up had a pretty boiler plate response to rankings and visibility: it's in the Algos, man, they're mystical and spread their magic as they may.


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## shunterni (May 2, 2016)

PheonixS, I don't know if it was you writing in or the wonkiness that's been going on with a lot of books has them on high alert, but after I emailed Amazon, my book got fixed.

I wrote them an email detailing that I'd run two big promos recently, and what my rankings were versus how many books had been downloaded, and I also detailed that my also-boughts had not updated throughout. They sent one email saying that they'd look into it. That was Monday. Since then, my ranking has found the right level and my also-boughts have begun to change for the first time in weeks. Haven't heard from them, but hey.

Thank you so much for pointing this problem out. If you hadn't, I wonder how long my book would have been stuck. To anyone else still having trouble, I suggest writing in. I wish I'd done it *before* my promos, but then again, who knows if it would have been fixed, or if they'd have believed me about my problems. Either way, I'm so glad to be finally out of limbo.

EDIT: I got an email saying "nothing is wrong, you're doing it wrong! You don't understand how it works!" But the problem is fixed and that only happened after I emailed. So.


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## chloegarner (Jul 1, 2016)

PhoenixS said:


> ...
> 
> Meanwhile, I wrote back to KDP (after being invited to call them) letting them know this thread is here and urging them to check it out before our phone conversation since anything I have to tell them is pretty much dumped out here in a visual, digestible manner. The response back was from an Exec CR rep saying she's turned it over to the tech team. Of course, the first time they did that the response from the tech team was that everything was unicorns and puppies. So, 4 mails and a few thousand words later, I guess they're taking another look.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the attempt at gathering legitimate data for this. Any news from talking with the KDP team?


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

chloegarner said:


> Appreciate the attempt at gathering legitimate data for this. Any news from talking with the KDP team?


I haven't spoken with them yet since I don't want to do that until I'm sure someone has looked at the data and I can talk to someone who understands the issue. I did write back yesterday to Exec CR and asked if there was any update from the tech team. They kindly pasted in the PR blather about the KENPC page-reads and Page Flip. I kindly pointed out that had nothing to do with the open ticket item I was inquiring about.

I found this appended bit amusing: "We always appreciate the questions and feedback we get from authors - please keep it coming." Keep it coming? So you can keep brushing us off? Gah. If I don't hear anything back this weekend that has remotely to do with the freebie rank issue, I'll call on Monday.


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## JustWriting (Mar 5, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> There really, really needs to be a Tier 2 support level where authors who've been at this a while and who aren't given to crying wolf over a bad sales day can turn for prompt, intelligent help.


THIS - a million times THIS!


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## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)

Two words for Phoenix. Thank and you.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> Promos do appear to be a gamble right now. So I think it's all about each author's tolerance for risk. We already had our Oct BookBub scheduled before the free rank meltdown. Not to capitalize on it with our other books seemed like it would be more harmful than not. My client is already pulling his books from other sales venues to go into KU. Not promoting would be a death knell there, regardless. But if this is a glitch -- or even if Amazon tweaked the volume a bit so the weightings or the exclusions or whatever factors now are working against us have less impact -- then waiting till the glitch resolves means another 30 days after we're confident that it has been to get some ad sites. That in itself would be too long a dry spell. Damned if you do promote; damned if you don't.


I hear you; I'm freaking out right now and hoping this mess gets resolved. I have a Bookbub and a new release at the end of October that I was hoping would piggyback off each other to boost sales. Not so sure how it's gonna work after all of this crazy.


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## phil1861 (Dec 22, 2011)

ebbrown said:


> I hear you; I'm freaking out right now and hoping this mess gets resolved. I have a Bookbub and a new release at the end of October that I was hoping would piggyback off each other to boost sales. Not so sure how it's gonna work after all of this crazy.


I added another two days due to a historical fiction cross promotion I'm part of, but I've no expectations at all on the after results any more.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I just ran a 90 day report to check on the problem with only getting credit for one page read, when I noticed something really wonky.

I did a free run from 7/7-12 with an ad on Freebooksy. There were nearly 4500 free downloads. My ninety day report shows only 92 free downloads.


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## amdonehere (May 1, 2015)

Is it possible at all to rebook the promos? I scheduled a Freebooksy in Nov and would happily rebook with Bargainbooksy. I scheduled a few others too but Freebooksy was the one I was really counting on. This mess has really got me worried.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

AlexaKang said:


> Is it possible at all to rebook the promos? I scheduled a Freebooksy in Nov and would happily rebook with Bargainbooksy. I scheduled a few others too but Freebooksy was the one I was really counting on. This mess has really got me worried.


I was counting on a Freebooksy the first five days of September. It was the end of the Select period on that book. My free days got erased and now I'm scheduled for 10/20. Fingers crossed, candles lit.


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

Hey Phoenix, did you ever get a satisfactory answer on this issue?

I thought I'd just report that I decided to go ahead with my two day Select free run (9-10 Oct) since I'd already booked the promo. It seems to have gone smoothly - I took regular note of the free rank and compared it to the last chart that you posted to kboards and it seemed to basically line up (this was over a range of about 15,000 when it first went free up to about 160 before it went back to paid). I also don't seem to have lost any of my also-bought positions or anything like that and my position has improved on the poplists as expected.

I will just note that the tail was disappointingly small and short (based on what I have experienced from past free promos.) However, I have no way of knowing if this was because of a) just not being a particularly successful promo (I was disappointed in download numbers) b) being too long since my last new release or c) due to some sort of change in the Amazon environment linked to all the other issues authors are experiencing. Or, of course, some combination of all three!


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

I saw on the other thread that you're still looking for data for this. I had a 5-day free promo in early October which may be useful, although I was travelling at the time, so I didn't record the ranks at the exact time. Ranks shown are the best recorded on Author Central for the following day. This is .com only:

{EDITED TO ADD PROMO SITES}

ASIN: B00QXSSEHE
Mon 3rd: FKBT 285; rank #443
Tue 4th: OHFB 495; rank #194
Wed 5th: FreeBooksy 1296; rank #126
Thu 6th: RobinReads 1241; rank #123
Fri 7th: BookBarbarian 692; rank #138
Select free days

This seems more in line with previous expectations than my last free promo on 10th September.

A couple of interesting points: before the promo, on 29th September, I uploaded a new version of the book with minor changes to the backmatter. On 30th September, the book rolled over into a new Select term. On 1st October, pages read dropped from an average of 1-2K per day to just 24, and stayed low for several days. After the promo ended, pages read picked up to normal levels and continued to increase. I've also seen good sell-through to other books, so the post-promo bump is as expected (hooray!).

One other interesting snippet: a couple of days after the promo, I had several scammy short books in my also-boughts, although not, fortunately, cluttering up the first page. A couple of days later, they'd all gone. So there's a lot going on behind the scenes these days.

I have another 1-day free promo coming up on the 25th, so I'll post the results of that here.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

In the interest of sharing data, here is my permafree downloads and ranking charts for the last month or so. I ran a promo on my permafree early in October. The huge spike is freebooksy (October 2nd), and a couple of smaller ones before and after.



















I found the numbers and ranking pretty much on part with other promos I've run in the past.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

2 day promo (a small one) on October 14 and 15 on a permafree. The data raises more questions

ASIN: B01DSJSXNA


 Oct 14Oct 15Oct 16 (promo over)Downloads (KDP Dash)330368280Author Central Rank524324275KND Book Tracker Rank525499275

I'm not sure how to interpret this, other than Booktracker is picking up the "live" ranks as they happen, and the Author Central charts are being updated _post facto_, possibly due to questionable downloads which weren't originally counted being cleared and added in later. The really puzzling thing is why the ranking on the 16th was significantly higher even though I got fewer downloads than both of the other days.


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## 90daysnovel (Apr 30, 2012)

B01392U0YQ

Oct 18: 49,358 downloads, #1, Select 

(and, not that you asked, zero bump in pages read - last time I hit #1 on a Select run I had several million extra pages in the days after that)


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## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> Yeesh.
> 
> So...glitch or algo change? Are they deliberately eliminating the ability to earn through page reads while the book is free?


And, if books no longer earn page reads while free, does that mean that if a KU reader downloads it during a free day (versus permafree) using the "Read for Free" (KU) button and then reads it two weeks later that those page reads won't count? Will it be as if they had purchased it?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Bookbub on Select free days

Ranks shown are the best recorded on Author Central for the following day. This is .com only:

ASIN: B00UHX8XDQ

Rank Aug 28: #22852 paid

Mon Aug 29: 67; rank #2446 free
Tue Aug 30: 6277; rank #19 free
Wed Aug 31: 1334; rank #14 free
Thu Sep 1: 678; rank #35 free
Fri Sep 2: 319; rank #55 free

Rank Sep 3: #17622 paid

This was a year-old book. Page reads had died. They revived a bit from the promo, but only to a few thousand a day, and only for two weeks before they went back to a few hundred a day, if any. Very disappointing.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**************


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

PhoenixS said:


> Very, VERY preliminary results for our October run coupled with the download numbers and ranks from what's been reported here (minus the BookBub days) and from a couple of other reports for permafrees:
> 
> Books with fewer than 1000 downloads seem to be ranking BETTER than they would have prior to Sept. This seems so far pretty consistent across both Select and permafree books. I was surprised when I first started seeing the numbers a few days ago, and even with the typical rank lag, I'm already seeing our books at better ranks than they would have had in August.
> 
> ...


Thanks Phoenix, that is very interesting!

For the person up thread who asked, I saw a small lift in page reads and then a steep dive (which is when I made my last post). However, since then they have lifted again (not as high as they have been after past promos but it's been a while since I had a new release).


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**************


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## dragontucker (Jul 18, 2014)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> Yeesh.
> 
> So...glitch or algo change? Are they deliberately eliminating the ability to earn through page reads while the book is free?


If this is true, that would be terrible. Not earning page reads when the readers continue from the first free book? Is there any truth to this or just speculation right now?


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Just a bit of data to add here.

Freebooksy; ASIN B006DQZ0GO
Day one: Rank this morning, 26,296 in the free store.
Rank as of 9:30pm, EST with 1629 freeloads:  : #70 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)

    #1 in Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > 90 minutes (44-64 pages) > Romance
    #1 in Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > 90 minutes (44-64 pages) > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense
    #3 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Private Investigators

This is my most popular series (4 books).


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I have a free promo coming up on Tuesday. I have four ads for that one day. FKB&T, Book Barbarian, ManyBooks, and Bookgrow. The book is free the next day also, but I wanted to concentrate my ads on one day. I did that with the same book in August, and I got 7500 downloads and reached #14 in the free store. It was a new book and I mainly wanted to build up reviews, so getting sales/page reads was a bonus. I posted somewhere else what it got down to in ranks then and page reads, so I'll find that and you'll have apples to apples comparison.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**************


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Just a bit of data to add here.
> 
> Freebooksy; ASIN B006DQZ0GO
> Day one: Rank this morning, 26,296 in the free store.
> ...


Interesting. My ranks finally started to move a couple of hours ago. With a only 178 freeloads (it's still early in the day), my rank is.

#138 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)

#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > 90 minutes (44-64 pages) > Romance
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > 90 minutes (44-64 pages) > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense
#3 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Private Investigators


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**************


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> This is great!
> 
> I also wonder about sell-through, if anyone has anything to add. Even vague and anecdotal - like, is it even happening with free promos now? Is it being suppressed in some manner?


All I know is that I had an ENT on one of my permafrees on 10/7, gave away over 1000 books, and I've seen no spike whatsoever. The sell-through is pitiful. There's less sell-through than I normally get when I do smaller promos. I'm scratching my head.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

PhoenixS said:


> Thanks, Gertie. Do you have final .com DL number and best rank for yesterday's run? I'll add to the chart, if so.


Let me get back to you in about an hour. I'm heading out the door.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Here are the final numbers for yesterday.

1870 D/Ls

#70 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)

    #1 in Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > 90 minutes (44-64 pages) > Romance
    #1 in Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > 90 minutes (44-64 pages) > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense
    #2 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Private Investigators


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> Thank you! So either this is happening or it's just its evil cousin, coincidence.
> 
> [Straightens tinfoil hat. Hmm, these things don't look too bad.]
> 
> Could it be a suppression of back matter links in suspect downloads somehow?


I'm not discounting anything, including coincidence. I sincerely hope it's something on their end, and that they get it sorted out soon if it's a glitch or whatever. If they're intentionally doing something to suppress sales, they might wind up with a big PR mess on their hands.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2016)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> This is great!
> 
> I also wonder about sell-through, if anyone has anything to add. Even vague and anecdotal - like, is it even happening with free promos now? Is it being suppressed in some manner?


I just did a free promo...my best to date (940 downloads). My two previous were 250 and 530. I've had ZERO KU or sales post-activity on this recent sale. In my previous two, despite being low numbers (I'm new to this) I had a significant spike in activity the 1-2 weeks after - both in sales and KU reads.

I also got caught in that September debacle. Also, seen my rank jump from 1M to 200,000 for no reason (but at least it's staying there, which tells me the 1M rank was not correct). Also getting 1 KENP reads. The third book in my series (which has equal or less sales than the second book) is actually ranked BETTER than the second book (which makes zero sense).

I've thrown my hands up at this point. There's too much wonkiness to even try to figure it out.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> I also wonder about sell-through, if anyone has anything to add. Even vague and anecdotal - like, is it even happening with free promos now? Is it being suppressed in some manner?


I had a 5-day free promo on 3rd-7th October which I had no great expectations for (the book is getting on for 2 years old now), but it's done better than expected. It was the only book where I saw an abrupt drop in pages read (just after an uploaded new version on 29th Sept and Select renewal on 30th), but the freeby days have triggered a rash of sales and pages read. Rank's improved from ~80K to ~8K. I've also seen sell-through to other books. Here are the sales and pages read graphs:


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't know whether it's the wonkiness tracked in this thread or the cyber attack, but my free run results have been underwhelming to say the least. The first day, on the 20th, resulted in 1,870 freeloads which I was pleased with. The next day, only 239. This is not normal behavior.


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## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I don't know whether it's the wonkiness tracked in this thread or the cyber attack, but my free run results have been underwhelming to say the least. The first day, on the 20th, resulted in 1,870 freeloads which I was pleased with. The next day, only 239. This is not normal behavior.


Did your rank move as expected? If you didn't make it into the top 100s (and top 20s) that you should have, that might have caused the slow next day.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

LSMay said:


> Did your rank move as expected? If you didn't make it into the top 100s (and top 20s) that you should have, that might have caused the slow next day.


Day one:

#70 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)

#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > 90 minutes (44-64 pages) > Romance
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > 90 minutes (44-64 pages) > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense
#2 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Private Investigators


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**************


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

A quick observation: Numerous scambooks from 2 pubs in particular have been in the Top 100 Free *every day* for the past several weeks. This morning, the list looked relatively clean. When I checked the publishers, one of them has ZERO free books right now when they've been running several each day. The other has only ONE freebie, released yeasterday, which is in the #9000s. It *could* be coincidence, and that they're just regrouping and biding their time before starting back up again. Or it could be Amazon is getting better at suppressing them. One day doesn't a trend make, but it's at least a wee bit encouraging...


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

I feel like we could all do with some encouragement right now, so I'll take it


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

MelanieCellier said:


> I feel like we could all do with some encouragement right now, so I'll take it


*nodsheadvigorouslyinagreement*


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**************


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

PhoenixS said:


> Sigh. Regrettably, there are 6 scam titles hanging together in the #20s right now. So, looks like they were just regrouping for the next assault. Not suppressed.


The IT guy where I used to work told me, "The bad guys are winning."


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

A report on a recent free day on 25 Oct, promoted with Freebooksy:

ASIN: B01HBSSMV2
Downloads: 3081
Best rank the following day: #50
Book is in Select, a Regency romance

Paid rank improved from ~32K to ~22K, but there's been NO spike in paid sales on the first day of non-free (which in my experience is almost universal for that many downloads). It's too early to say if there'll be an increase in pages read.

The promoted book is #3 in the series, and there were big spikes in sales of books 1 and 2 on the day of the promo, and noticeable upticks in sales of all three since then.

One worry: the promoted book hasn't moved up the poplists as it should. A similar promo in July got book 1 to #4 in its primary subgenre poplist, and book 2 in September also did well. They are still at #50 and #61 in that list, while the newly promoted book is at #84. Which probably means little to no tail.  This is very different from the outcome of a 5-day free promo in early October, which had a good post-free sales spike and a good tail of both sales and pages read (which is still ongoing). That was an epic fantasy, in case the genre may be relevent.

ETA: Ignore that, the update in the poplists was just slow. Promoted book is now #10 - much, much better!

One other oddity, which may mean nothing. The total downloads for the two days the book was free show as 3859 on the sales graph. However, the month-to-date report shows only 3559. So 300 downloads have been removed or discounted or (for all I know) spontaneously combusted. I find this peculiar, but it may be something that happens a lot, and it also happened on both the other free promos I've had in September/October.


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## E.M. Cooper (Feb 27, 2015)

Nearly half the Children's Bestseller list this morning is made up of books that have repeating paragraphs in them. They're in a block together of forty books.

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Childrens-eBooks/zgbs/digital-text/155009011/ref=zg_bs_unv_kstore_3_155189011_1#2

It's depressing.


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