# Expatting as part of a writer's strategy.



## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

In his excellent book, _How To Become a Famous Artist and Still Paint Pictures_, by Windsor Joe Innis, the most shocking--and perhaps hardest to follow advice--is that you must leave the country (America--or your country of birth) to blossom as a painter.

He explains why, and I won't go into the details here--however I highly recommend his book to creatives. It's similar to Pressfield's _War of Art_, in that the advice often works across different creative endeavors. _How to Become a Famous Artist_ is mostly about creating fine art, but one of the things he explains is why it's important to "get out of Dodge" as a creative.

So, all that said, I wanted to give a "one month in Mexico" report and I'd be happy to answer any questions about it.

First off, I owe credit to an indie who ex-patted to Mexico some time back and has been willing over the last year or so to answer some of my questions and address some of my concerns. He is pretty forthright on his Facebook (in fact, I made this decision and got advice completely on posts in public threads).

So, with some encouragement I took a train to San Diego, a metro-link to the border, and I walked across the border into Mexico.

What I came with: A few thousand USD, a MacBook Pro, and a 57 pounds of personal belongings (everything I owned in the world fit in a rucksack).

I got here, Guadalajara, after a 40 hour bus ride from Tijuana. I did not know anyone in this city when I got here. I did not speak Spanish (beyond taco and cerveza). I had no place to stay, and I didn't even book a hostel until after I got to downtown Guadalajara on day one.

Today: I am in an apartment (I rent one room for $250 a month US). One of my room mates is a German who works an online business and is here studying Spanish, he has a local (bi-lingual) girlfriend, and they've invited me out to dinner, clubs, etc. I'm in a nice area, the main street has stuff going on all the time, it reminds me of San Francisco (but at about 1/3 to 1/5 the cost, depending...more if we're talking rent).

I made some friends, three America guys who graduated from UCLA, UCSD, & Santa Barbara and decided to come here and open a restaurant. I set up a Meetup with locals wanting to speak conversational English at their new restaurant.
I joined an art society and I display paintings on Sundays with them.
And, yes, I'm studying Spanish.

NOW,,,,,what does this have to do with WRITING as an indie...

Well, for one thing, with a little savings and some traction with a series (or two) you can live here without a day job. That's the main key.

I just launched my second LitRPG, if it does anywhere near what the first book did, I'll be able to afford to live here comfortably for months...if the third book gives me the "third in a series" bump, I'll be good into next year.

Granted, this isn't going to the fancy restaurants and buying electronics, it's still living on a tight budget, but *no day job...*

Of course, with even moderate success, I can live like a king here, I'll effectively be in the upper middle class with an income that wouldn't even let me live in a major US city.

Back to writing and art:

Being full-time has it's own challenges. Being somewhere fun is also a distraction...

Things I've learned being here:

I can dedicate a good amount of time to producing work, but still have a social life and not go crazy (ie as an introvert locked in a closet).

Long term, the benefits of being out of America's political mess and high taxes means I keep more of my earnings and feel better about my life. Because of the lower cost of living, it's just a win-win all around. This isn't a post about politics, but it's something to consider, I am going to structure my business side to avoid (legally and above board) as much money from the American war machine as possible. This makes me a better and happier artist. To each his/her own on the politics, I'm merely mentioning that to me, it's a major relief being here.

The safety concerns you hear about in the states about Mexico are exaggerations (in case anyone was wondering). Yeah, there are bad neighborhoods (like any major US city) but where I live is reasonably safe. I've never felt in danger, and I've been out at 3am (with friends---uber or taxi to get home, of course).

I've read the stories of famous writers living in their cars (or horrible shoe boxes in New York) while they slaved to get out art. This is better, in my opinion. I actually considered being homeless in the states...I'm glad I didn't go that route.

Now, one more thing: I've received several different offers for jobs or potential jobs (and I wasn't even looking) since I've been here. Once you start networking, things happen. As it turns out, as a safety precaution, I have agreed to a 3 week sales and writing gig in Texas in September. My landlord owns a magazine....

Things happen when you leave port and put up your sails.

I hope this will encourage someone...

Oh, P.S. I did consider Cambodia, I have a friend of a friend as a Facebook friend and he said he'd show me around. So Mexico isn't the only place to consider going to live cheap. I like it here and it's close to the states and family, but there is a big world out there.


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

I don't have much to say beyond, "Sounds like a lot of fun. I hope you rock out with it—and keep the thread updated."


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Glad to hear it's working for you. Certainly an option for some folks. With a family and mortgage and so forth, I don't see myself packing up for South America any time soon.


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## Talbot (Jul 14, 2015)

Wow, that took guts. Keep us posted!


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## Travelian (Jun 1, 2017)

I'm considering the expat lifestyle. But to get the full tax benefits you have to be outside the US for at least 11 months each year. Not sure I can be away from family and friends for that long.


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## SeaHansen (Jul 12, 2017)

Very inspirational! Interested to see how that works out. After reading Happier than a Billionaire, it made me want to leave it all and go to Costa Rica. Good luck to you!


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## Teresa Rook (Nov 20, 2016)

Thanks for sharing, Jayden! I've been seriously considering doing something like this. But in all my research, there's one snaggle I haven't been able to iron out...

I have a cat who I am under no circumstances leaving behind. Do you know any expats with pets in Guadalajara? Any thoughts on how pet-friendly it is down there, particularly when it comes to renting accommodation?

Oddly specific question, sorry!


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Here's a decent tool for comparing the cost of living between where you live and where you aspire to live: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living


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## Brad__W (Feb 27, 2013)

As others have said above, many thanks for sharing. It's a thrilling adventure and I wish you all the best & lots of productivity in your writing.

I'm living as an Aussie expat in Ireland with a young family and the experience here is different again.... After putting out several books when first living here in Ireland and working full-time, I found I could never write back home in Oz when we returned for a few years. Too much had changed, we had changed, and we missed the European lifestyle and travel too much... plus I guess it didn't really feel like the place I had grown up in anymore and was familiar with after living in Ireland for the best part of 8 years. 

So, sure enough we came back to Ireland wouldn't you know it, and I'm writing again and finding there really is something in the water here - or the sense of getting out of Dodge (home) and living somewhere else triggers the writing bug. Going home (Oz will always be home) just didn't give me the same urgency/atmosphere/je nais se quois as it does living elsewhere.
The cost of living can be high for some things here, but then it is swings and roundabouts compared to where I was in Oz which was also expensive. At least the US and Europe are only a quick flight away compared to the distances in Oz.

Good luck in your journey of writing more outside of Dodge!


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I've heard that one of the best reasons to "expat" oneself is for the boost to creativity living in a different environment can promote, but the cost of living could be an incentive too.

Right now we're sticking to Chicago. I did look into living in Costa Rica. It's pretty easy to get residency there, the health care is first rate and cheaper, but we'd have to either homeschool both kids or send them to private school. It still is almost cheaper. My husband says that if we lived in Costa Rica no one would take him seriously, tho. (He has a web shop that specializes in midsize businesses that require custom apps--he _might_ be right.)

Oh, also have a writer friend who has lived in the U.S. and Canada. She says that even with the housing bubble in Canada and higher taxes she still winds up paying less than living in U.S. because there isn't the additional FICA tax to pay and healthcare is rolled up into those high taxes.


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## lsj says no to tos (Jan 9, 2016)

I'm glad you're enjoying Mexico, and expatting is definitely on the radar for spouse and I (they're from the UK originally). Certainly it sounds like it was a great move for you, and I hope your work continues to flourish.

However, I gotta say that the idea of having to "get out of Dodge" to be an artist makes my hackles rise. Plenty of amazing, capital-A Art has been made through the centuries by people who never even left the house they were born in. If it works for you, that's great, but it irks me when a book presents this as some kind of necessity. At best, it could give a beginner artist pause about pursuing their craft; at worst it could deter them completely, while also dismissing the many great works that have come from artists who stayed local. Just my .02.


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## LittleFox (Jan 3, 2015)

Moving to Prague certainly did my creativity the world of good. England never quite felt right, whereas Prague was home, and that feeling of home made everything that little bit better. We've since moved to Ireland and will likely move on again at some point, wandering does both me and my husband good. 


On the financial side, Prague was wonderfully cheap. We could live quite well even with my husband's medical needs and both us being freelance. Ireland is... more difficult, but the change of scene and friendly people make up for it.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Here's a decent tool for comparing the cost of living between where you live and where you aspire to live: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living


So I just tried this, comparing Irvine, CA with Guadalajara, and it was considerably off. It said the cost difference was 119%.

No way is that even close to accurate, so I think two things.
a. The site doesn't have enough data points
b. It doesn't take into account lifestyle changes that are natural with such a move.

For instance, in Southern California a car is nearly a necessity. In Orange County there is very little public transportation.

I was paying about $1000 a month to maintain a car--payment--insurance--plus gasoline in Orange County. Here, realistically, I don't need a car. A 20 minute Uber cost about $4. A bus cost about forty cents and I can do all my shopping between walking and a bus. A taxi from Walmart cost me $3. If I wanted a car, it would be 1/5 the cost or maybe 1/3...unless I got luxurious.

I was paying $600 for a single room in Orange County, I pay $250 here, and I'm in prime part of town. Within walking distance there are 500 bars and restaurants and clubs.

I don't need medical insurance here. A trip to the doctor is $4. A broken arm or stitches or something major, maybe $120-$150.

And also the tax situation, this varies, obviously, but my understanding is that $90,000 is tax free. I haven't been here long enough to worry about that yet. Long term I'm going renounce anyway, and my understanding is that the tax rate here is effectively about 5% or so.

I'm also an anacap, so I've been considering this move for a long time.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Being an expat certainly sounds interesting!  

It seems like something you'd have to be young, healthy, confident, and not have pets to do, but I admire anyone who gives it a go.  I wouldn't want to leave where I live now, not long term, because of family, pets, health, etc.  But it's certainly a fascinating idea, and could be amazing for the right people.

Please do keep us updated.  This is a very educational thread.


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## Flay Otters (Jul 29, 2014)

Yep, great idea and congrats!
I did this in 1980 when I moved to the US.
Of course I moved from London to New York City, so cost of living was comparable.
But I agree it stimulated my creativity, just being in a new environment.

Never looked back.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

I was an expat for nine years and just moved back to America when I got a high-paying job offer. Boy, was it a mistake. I hate the job and now my books are making a lot more money just three months after I left Japan.

I'm planning to go back to Japan on a full-time teaching gig either in the next few months or in the spring depending on how the offers come in. Even with a basic teaching job in Japan (which doesn't pay much), I'd still have the freedom to write and afford basic necessities. The additional income that's started coming in from my books would double that income.

It's still a little less than I make at my current job, but without the stress. And despite what people say, Japan is a lot less expensive than the US, particularly if you don't care about living outside the major cities (which I don't). Plus it's much easier to get basic health insurance for a lower cost without having to worry about things like pre-existing conditions (and it looks like those have a chance of making a comeback in the US).

Outside of major cities in Japan, I could rent a house for about half of what I pay for my current 1-bedroom apartment. Even in major cities, rent would be cheaper than what I'm paying.



JaydenHunter said:


> And also the tax situation, this varies, obviously, but my understanding is that $90,000 is tax free. I haven't been here long enough to worry about that yet. Long term I'm going renounce anyway, and my understanding is that the tax rate here is effectively about 5% or so.


Yeah, the foreign-earned income exclusion is around $90,000. I've heard different things about whether or not this includes Amazon royalties, so it would be best to consult a tax expert to be on the safe side.

You also have the Foreign Bank Account Reporting, which if the aggregate of your overseas accounts is $10,000 USD or above, you have to file a form every year in (I believe) June.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> Glad to hear it's working for you. Certainly an option for some folks. With a family and mortgage and so forth, I don't see myself packing up for South America any time soon.


It's a big move, but if you Google for blogs (or Youtube videos) there are families that have done this and say it was the best thing every for their children. One such interview was a guy on James Altucher's show, I think last year.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

HSh said:


> Being an expat certainly sounds interesting!
> 
> It seems like something you'd have to be young, healthy, confident, and not have pets to do, but I admire anyone who gives it a go. I wouldn't want to leave where I live now, not long term, because of family, pets, health, etc. But it's certainly a fascinating idea, and could be amazing for the right people.
> 
> Please do keep us updated. This is a very educational thread.


Actually the majority of expats are older.

With SS payments you can live really well, there are entire communities of retired American's living abroad.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

JaydenHunter said:


> So I just tried this, comparing Irvine, CA with Guadalajara, and it was considerably off. It said the cost difference was 119%.
> 
> No way is that even close to accurate, so I think two things.
> a. The site doesn't have enough data points
> b. It doesn't take into account lifestyle changes that are natural with such a move.


That's good to know. I had heard from a few expats that the numbers were pretty good. But that was a few years ago and none of them were in Guadalajara at the time.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Teresa Rook said:


> Thanks for sharing, Jayden! I've been seriously considering doing something like this. But in all my research, there's one snaggle I haven't been able to iron out...
> 
> I have a cat who I am under no circumstances leaving behind. Do you know any expats with pets in Guadalajara? Any thoughts on how pet-friendly it is down there, particularly when it comes to renting accommodation?
> 
> Oddly specific question, sorry!


I can't imagine bringing a pet down here is that difficult. Perhaps you'd have to get proof of certain shots, although I don't know.

In reality, you can just drive across the border from San Diego into TJ so I doubt that they do pet checks on every car. If you got stopped, you could try again the next day...

As to renting accommodations...well, for instance...here's how I rented my room: I replied to an internet ad. The owner was in the states and spoke English. He sent me to meet a woman who works for him (who does not speak English). She showed me the room. I said, "Okay."
She called him.
I said, "I'll take it."
He said, "Okay, she'll give you a receipt and the keys."
That was it. No contract, no nothing. Heck, he has no way of knowing who I even am. No, do I think he cares as long as I Paypal him the rent.
I could have two dogs and an elephant in here and as long as my room mates didn't complain nobody would ever care...

Now, that said, when you hunt for rooms they will say things like: "No smoking" or "Smoking outside only" or "Women only" or "Students only"

But that's for a room.

If you're renting a house, I think you could bring a tiger as long as you paid your rent.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Perry Constantine said:


> I was an expat for nine years and just moved back to America when I got a high-paying job offer. Boy, was it a mistake. I hate the job...


The lower stress levels are something that cannot be accounted for in terms of dollars.

Being in a situation where you end up hating your job (or your life in general) just sucks. I don't want to be in that boat again.

What is nice about being somewhere that is relatively inexpensive is that you can get by on a lot less.

What is nice about being in certain parts of the world is that you can be on a really tight budget and people are more accepting and there is not the pressure (at least the pressure I felt) being in a middle class American town.

God knows how much money I've spent over the years buying gifts, going to events, doing things...money, money, money....at least it was like this in Orange County in So Cal. You couldn't turn around and sneeze without coughing up $50.

The other day I went with a couple guys to have a beer. We paid 150 pesos, about nine dollars, for 5 liters of beer. That was $3 for my share, and I think I drank about 2 liters.... What's that? About five 12 ounce pours? So 60 cents a glass, at a bar in a nice part of town.

Even with a few tacos and bottled beer you can have a very nice evening for under $10.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

JaydenHunter said:


> The other day I went with a couple guys to have a beer. We paid 150 pesos, about nine dollars, for 5 liters of beer. That was $3 for my share, and I think I drank about 2 liters.... What's that? About five 12 ounce pours? So 60 cents a glass, at a bar in a nice part of town.


I think the key question is whether it's possible to get good bourbon in Guadalajara.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

JaydenHunter said:


> God knows how much money I've spent over the years buying gifts, going to events, doing things...money, money, money....at least it was like this in Orange County in So Cal. You couldn't turn around and sneeze without coughing up $50.
> 
> The other day I went with a couple guys to have a beer. We paid 150 pesos, about nine dollars, for 5 liters of beer. That was $3 for my share, and I think I drank about 2 liters.... What's that? About five 12 ounce pours? So 60 cents a glass, at a bar in a nice part of town.
> 
> Even with a few tacos and bottled beer you can have a very nice evening for under $10.


Living in SoCal myself right now, I know exactly what you mean. There's a bar nearby with pretty good food. But just going there for a burger and two beers and you're looking at a bill of about $30!


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

I expatted myself to Spain for four years. Now I write with a slightly Spanish accent.

suerte!


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I travel permanently and I've found almost anywhere in the world is cheaper than Australia, except maybe Hong Kong.

I can totally understand the idea that expatting is for creativity. It's not just a cheaper cost of living but that you start to look at things differently. There are a zillion things you do without even thinking in your everyday life, things you take for granted because you've always done them and so does everyone else around you but once you get out of that environment you find that everything changes. Just a trip to the supermarket and simple things like that become a challenge.  As a writer, seeing life through fresh eyes is always an asset. It's not just about exploring new places but having a different perspective on life back home.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

I wish you'd write a book about managing a peripatetic life like yours, Kathrynoh.  I lived overseas for a number of years, but always settled in one country with one job. I'm looking at doing your wandering stint in a few years (I won't leave while my fuzzy little guy is still around to get fur on the furniture), and that's very different from settling down in one spot for a couple of years.

I saw your original posts on a the 20Books50K FB site, Jayden, and was cheering for you. Glad it's working out so well.  Thanks for starting the thread.  (San Miguel de Allende has been high on my list for a long, long time)


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## aimeeeasterling (Sep 22, 2014)

A couple of weeks ago, my husband and I decided to pull up our roots in southwest Virginia and move...somewhere. I was looking at Nova Scotia for a variety of reasons, but my husband reined me in to settle on the Athens, Ohio, area instead. This thread is much appreciated since, as reality sinks in, any sort of large move seems daunting since stress tends to make it hard for me to write. Your experience of a move making writing easier was very timely, so thank you!


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

My Dog's Servant said:


> I wish you'd write a book about managing a peripatetic life like yours, Kathrynoh. I lived overseas for a number of years, but always settled in one country with one job. I'm looking at doing your wandering stint in a few years (I won't leave while my fuzzy little guy is still around to get fur on the furniture), and that's very different from settling down in one spot for a couple of years.
> 
> I saw your original posts on a the 20Books50K FB site, Jayden, and was cheering for you. Glad it's working out so well. Thanks for starting the thread. (San Miguel de Allende has been high on my list for a long, long time)


I'd have to actually be managing my life before i could write that book  I do blog sometimes.

Check out this blog too - http://gigigriffis.com/blog/ - she travels with her dog. But I do understand what you mean. My sister and I inherited my mum's dog and I'd take him travelling but he has a bad habit of eating things like bed linen!


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Yeah, I've been doing it for years but only in the last couple got into writing. I have plenty of time for writing or doing whatever I want living in China. I really enjoy the expat lifestyle and it's nice living somewhere which has modern metro in every major city. Health coverage abroad tends to be faster and less expensive pretty much anywhere outside the states so that's nice too.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

Come to Taiwan! It's a developed country with all modern infrastructures including excellent public transportation and very cheap, high quality healthcare. The cost of living is cheaper and you can get by with no Chinese. The rest of Asia and Australasia is your playground for holidays. I actually feel more comfortable living here than in the UK in many ways. I think an expat lifestyle works well for many writers as they already feel like they don't quite fit in living in their homeland. Living as an expat you can be as weird as you like and no one minds. In fact, they expect it of you.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Abderian said:


> Come to Taiwan! It's a developed country with all modern infrastructures including excellent public transportation and very cheap, high quality healthcare. The cost of living is cheaper and you can get by with no Chinese. The rest of Asia and Australasia is your playground for holidays. I actually feel more comfortable living here than in the UK in many ways. I think an expat lifestyle works well for many writers as they already feel like they don't quite fit in living in their homeland. Living as an expat you can be as weird as you like and no one minds. In fact, they expect it of you.


I used to live in Taipei. Datong district pretty close to main station.


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## JTriptych (Aug 23, 2015)

I was already living the expat life and semi-retired when I decided to begin writing. I have properties in Thailand and Philippines so I travel back and forth. My son is a dual citizen and I bought new island beachfront property under his name- all I need is a bestseller or two now to get a nice house built by the ocean and I can swim before writing every day. Cost of living is so low I love it though I do occasionally go on trips back to the US to visit relatives.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

Glad to hear you're enjoying Guadalajara! I lived there for almost 2 years and it was a wonderful experience. So much so I'm seriously thinking of going back. I'm now in Texas and yet it's near impossible to find some of the dishes I most enjoyed there, like carne en su jugo and birria. I had so many favorite places to eat, and it's a big college town, lots of foreign students and there are many meetup/facebook groups as well. It was so easy to find people to hang out with.

Unfortunately, I didn't get any writing done, but that was a because of a lack of discipline on my part. But I don't consider my time there a waste, I got to know a lot of people, some of whom have inspired characters, and I also did a lot of reading. If you can stick to a plan and be disciplined, I do think it's a great way to get out of your comfort zone or get in a different mindset that could be beneficial to your writing.

Good luck!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

JaydenHunter said:


> Actually the majority of expats are older.
> 
> With SS payments you can live really well, there are entire communities of retired American's living abroad.


The problem with that is that so many only associate with other expats, in which case - except for finances - they may as well have stayed home. There is no point in being an expat if you don't experience the culture and people there. I've lived in both Europe and Japan and am always astonished at how comparatively few Americans have travelled or lived outside their own country. I do think it tends to limit your world view.

I'd love to move back to Scotland but am reluctant at the moment to move so far from family. In a couple of years, I may do it anyway.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

JRTomlin said:


> The problem with that is that so many only associate with other expats, in which case - except for finances - they may as well have stayed home. There is no point in being an expat if you don't experience the culture and people there. I've lived in both Europe and Japan and am always astonished at how comparatively few Americans have travelled or lived outside their own country. I do think it tends to limit your world view.
> 
> I'd love to move back to Scotland but am reluctant at the moment to move so far from family. In a couple of years, I may do it anyway.


That would show a lack of understanding of geography on your part. America is as large as a huge chunk of the entire EU. Americas can travel much farther than a European would travel and still be in America. We can travel half way across the Pacific and still be in the state of Hawaii. We can travel up to the arctic and still be in the state of Alaska. It always surprises me how little Europeans know about geography. This is from an American who has traveled to over twenty countries and lived in three very comfortably. In my current city, we always wonder why the UK expats hole themselves up in pubs and taverns every night with other expats. Usually the Americans I meet are out with locals, learning the language, and getting involved with the local community.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Herefortheride said:


> That would show a lack of understanding of geography on your part. America is as large as a huge chunk of the entire EU. Americas can travel much farther than a European would travel and still be in America. We can travel half way across the Pacific and still be in the state of Hawaii. We can travel up to the arctic and still be in the state of Alaska. It always surprises me how little Europeans know about geography. This is from an American who has traveled to over twenty countries and lived in three very comfortably. In my current city, we always wonder why the UK expats hole themselves up in pubs and taverns every night with other expats. Usually the Americans I meet are out with locals, learning the language, and getting involved with the local community.


This is all very true. Americans are from a continent-sized country. Living in Maine, California, and Texas is like living in England, Denmark and Greece, in both geographical distance and almost as much in cultural diversity.

I also second that as an American who has lived abroad for 12 years it's been my experience that Americans adapt much better to China than most other country's people. The Koreans and Japanese in Shanghai live in their enclaves, rarely venturing outside their cultural boundaries. The British - as herefortheride said - hang out at their pubs, play their footy, and in my experience make little effort to learn the language and culture. Same with the French. The folk from the smaller European countries - like the Netherlands, the Scandinavian countries, and central Europe - integrate much better, which is probably the result of not having a large expat community to fall back on.


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## Travelian (Jun 1, 2017)

My take on the Europeans vs Americans expat subject. I'd say on average Europeans are more open to overseas travel than Americans just because they're less cut off geographically from a majority of the nations. And that has an effect on the types of expats who travel from each region.

I know it's a movie but I'll use The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel as an example because I think it's applicable. You have a couple of UK characters who spend much of their time resisting integrating with India. They're retirees with a very UK-centric mindset whose circumstances forced expatriation. 

I'd venture to say if they were Americans with the same attachment, they'd be a lot more likely to stick it out in the US. Or would stay closer to home in places like Panama, Mexico, or maybe South America. 

On average it's really the more adventurous and open-minded Americans that would cross an ocean to retire. So they're more open to interacting with locals. Whereas Brits as a whole seem more likely to embrace global expatriation than most other nationalities. In other words, I don't think it' a coincidence that the popular movie about Asian expatration came from the UK.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Travelian said:


> My take on the Europeans vs Americans expat subject. I'd say on average Europeans are more open to overseas travel than Americans just because they're less cut off geographically from a majority of the nations. And that has an effect on the types of expats who travel from each region.
> 
> I know it's a movie but I'll use The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel as an example because I think it's applicable. You have a couple of UK characters who spend much of their time resisting integrating with India. They're retirees with a very UK-centric mindset whose circumstances forced expatriation.
> 
> ...


That's a good point.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Herefortheride said:


> That would show a lack of understanding of geography on your part. America is as large as a huge chunk of the entire EU. Americas can travel much farther than a European would travel and still be in America. We can travel half way across the Pacific and still be in the state of Hawaii. We can travel up to the arctic and still be in the state of Alaska. It always surprises me how little Europeans know about geography. This is from an American who has traveled to over twenty countries and lived in three very comfortably. In my current city, we always wonder why the UK expats hole themselves up in pubs and taverns every night with other expats. Usually the Americans I meet are out with locals, learning the language, and getting involved with the local community.


They're still in America and not experiencing different cultures. More is involved than the size of the country. I turn it around and say I am astonished at how little most Americans know about the rest of the world. Far too many are amazingly parochial and think that the US is the end all and be all of the world.

Maybe you missed the part where I discussed OAP expats who isolate themselves. There are many Brits like that and some Yanks, but Yank OAPs are much less likely to be expats.

However, there is a whole different class of younger expats in the EU, both British and from other EU countries. They are free to work or receive an education in different countries with totally different languages and cultures. and they do so. Many, many thousands of Brits work in continental Europe. This is something that you can't get by moving from Iowa to Minnesota.

ETA: Having lived in the US in Massachusetts, Oregon, California, and Colorado, I couldn't disagree more that there is any radical difference in culture. There are slight differences in slang but next to no cultural diversity. Comparing it to the difference in Greece and England and Norway? Not even in the same universe of differences. 

If I become an expat again as I was for some years, right after Edinburgh, Scotland, I'd pick Alesund, Norway. Love both countries the most of anywhere I've ever lived/visited. In fact Alesund would come first if the UK does indeed leave the EU and Scotland doesn't become independent.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

I'm an expat from Costa Rica living in Northern California. I lived in Minnesota before California and that was more of a cultural adjustment from the Midwest to the West Coast.  

California is crazy expensive compared to Minnesota.

I moved to go to college though not as a writing strategy and I stayed in the states. I like it here. My whole family is still in Costa Rica. A lot of expats down there. Some make it. A lot end up leaving.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

But ignoring arguments about who are better, Europeans or Americans, I do think that experiencing other different countries, peoples, and cultures are good for expanding our world view. This can only be a good thing for a writer.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

Herefortheride said:


> I used to live in Taipei. Datong district pretty close to main station.


Cool! Is that where your avatar was taken?


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Alan Petersen said:


> I'm an expat from Costa Rica living in Northern California. I lived in Minnesota before California and that was more of a cultural adjustment from the Midwest to the West Coast.
> 
> California is crazy expensive compared to Minnesota.
> 
> I moved to go to college though not as a writing strategy and I stayed in the states. I like it here. My whole family is still in Costa Rica. A lot of expats down there. Some make it. A lot end up leaving.


I agree with you. The differences from state to state are often more different than other countries.

I'd love to visit Costa Rica someday!!!


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

I found when I moved back to the UK from Spain it made me appreciate my country of birth more. Especially the fact that we have our air conditioning on the outside - and it's free!


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

JRTomlin said:


> ETA: Having lived in the US in Massachusetts, Oregon, California, and Colorado, I couldn't disagree more that there is any radical difference in culture. There are slight differences in slang but next to no cultural diversity. Comparing it to the difference in Greece and England and Norway? Not even in the same universe of differences.


For the record, those 4 states do have a lot of cultural similarities, especially if you stick to the main population centers like LA, San Francisco, Portland, Boston and Denver. All very progressive, liberal places. I'd put more stock in your experience if you'd also lived in the Florida panhandle or the Ozarks or one of the Dakotas. I'd hazard that the average resident of London and Copenhagen (both cities I've spent time in) have more in common than a resident of Portland Oregon does with someone from Brandon Missouri.

But anyway, this is a ridiculous thing to argue about. I've got more important things I could be doing.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Herefortheride said:


> This is laughable! I doubt you've truly spent anytimein the US, if so likely in the UK expat scenes...exactly the problem we've been talking about. Good luck with that = )


Maybe it's just me, but I understood JRTomlin to be saying in her posts here that she's an American who has, in the past, been an expat living in Scotland.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

SerenityEditing said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I understood JRTomlin to be saying in her posts here that she's an American who has, in the past, been an expat living in Scotland.


Pretty much that. It really isn't worth arguing though and as usual with these online arguments, no one is going to convince anyone of anything.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Just think what da Vinci could have achieved if he'd ever read a book about leaving Italy.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Doglover said:


> Just think what da Vinci could have achieved if he'd ever read a book about leaving Italy.


He died while living/working in France.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Herefortheride said:


> He died while living/working in France.


Well then; going abroad didn't do him much good, did it?


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## AmesburyArcher (Jan 16, 2017)

I'm a Canadian expat, living in the UK. Been here 25 years. Have a big stone circle almost in the back yard, lol. Moving never seemed very strange to me though, other than I got tons of annual leave from my UK employers! I'd been back and forth for years, had close family in the UK, and my mother, a war bride, always remained very, very British. Never lost her accent in 50 years.
For  my first ten years in the UK I did little writing at all; I was busy travelling Europe and doing 'other stuff.' I picked up my pen again in around 2003 after a serious illness.  And what was that first book about? It was a dystopian story set in an alternative-world version of my old home town in Canada! (It was a one off, though; most of my stuff is historical fiction set in the British Isles, and yeah, I do find it inspirational being able to visit churches, castles etc.)


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

I'm an American who's lived abroad about half of my adult life (mostly in the Czech Republic, but also, at earlier times, in Hungary, Japan and on Taiwan) and also travelled for long periods. I highly recommend it. Most places are a lot cheaper than the US and Western Europe and especially nowadays, with coworking spaces and virtual work available everywhere and well-paying, steady jobs disappearing it makes a lot of sense. It's an awful lot easier to make the thousand or two a month it takes to live extremely well in most parts of the world than the 4 or 5 thousand it takes to live adequately in most parts of the US. 

There are all sorts of other benefits for writers to both travel and living abroad. One writer friend says he has no problem picturing and writing about Victorian London slums after having traveled in India and I got great insights into what living in the sort of society most people used to live in and many still do- where goods are limited and generally not available simply for purchase- by spending a few months in Eastern Europe before 1989. 

And of course if you can't or don't want to leave your own country, you can always just study a language that's really different from your own. They're each like whole other worlds to themselves.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Here's a decent tool for comparing the cost of living between where you live and where you aspire to live: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living


Wow! Small world! This was actually developed by a Spaniard in our coworking space in Prague! The data is all crowdsourced, so if you want it to be more accurate just add some more prices for where you are. It's only as accurate as the number of people entering data from whatever places you want to compare.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Sarah Shaw said:


> I'm an American who's lived abroad about half of my adult life (mostly in the Czech Republic, but also, at earlier times, in Hungary, Japan and on Taiwan) and also travelled for long periods. I highly recommend it. Most places are a lot cheaper than the US and Western Europe and especially nowadays, with coworking spaces and virtual work available everywhere and well-paying, steady jobs disappearing it makes a lot of sense. It's an awful lot easier to make the thousand or two a month it takes to live extremely well in most parts of the world than the 4 or 5 thousand it takes to live adequately in most parts of the US.
> 
> There are all sorts of other benefits for writers to both travel and living abroad. One writer friend says he has no problem picturing and writing about Victorian London slums after having traveled in India and I got great insights into what living in the sort of society most people used to live in and many still do- where goods are limited and generally not available simply for purchase- by spending a few months in Eastern Europe before 1989.
> 
> And of course if you can't or don't want to leave your own country, you can always just study a language that's really different from your own. They're each like whole other worlds to themselves.


I am one of those irritating English people who go about the world expecting everyone to speak English. There is no cure, because wherever we go, most folk do speak English so that only encourages us. I have visited a lot of countries in earlier years, but to be honest, I don't like anything too foreign. I like places where they speak the same language and eat the same grub, so I have a particular fondness for the USA.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Alan Petersen said:


> My whole family is still in Costa Rica. A lot of expats down there. Some make it. A lot end up leaving.


That's interesting, Alan. Do you know why so many expats end up leaving Costa Rica?


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Herefortheride said:


> America is as large as a huge chunk of the entire EU. Americas can travel much farther than a European would travel and still be in America. We can travel half way across the Pacific and still be in the state of Hawaii. We can travel up to the arctic and still be in the state of Alaska. It always surprises me how little Europeans know about geography. This is from an American who has traveled to over twenty countries and lived in three very comfortably. In my current city, we always wonder why the UK expats hole themselves up in pubs and taverns every night with other expats. Usually the Americans I meet are out with locals, learning the language, and getting involved with the local community.


I was born and raised in America and lived abroad for almost a decade and that's not been my experience at all. I grew up in Chicago and my grandparents lived in Clearwater and I spent three months of every year of my life until I was about fifteen in Florida. With my mother's job as a convention planner, she traveled a lot and would frequently take us with her, so I've traveled to many different states.

Yes, you can experience many different climates in America and sure, there might be some small cultural differences, but there's absolutely no comparison to the diversity of culture when you leave America and visit Mexico, Japan, Thailand, Korea, the Philippines, etc.

It's also not my experience that non-American expats are always holed up in the pub or in their little enclaves. My regular expat group was evenly mixed between Americans, Australians, Kiwis, Scots, and Brits, and we often went out with the locals. I knew plenty of Americans who would never interact with the locals and only ever stayed in their apartments.

So how about we skip the generalizations? They help no one.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Perry Constantine said:


> It's also not my experience that non-American expats are always holed up in the pub or in their little enclaves. My regular expat group was evenly mixed between Americans, Australians, Kiwis, Scots, and Brits, and we often went out with the locals. I knew plenty of Americans who would never interact with the locals and only ever stayed in their apartments.
> 
> So how about we skip the generalizations? They help no one.


Yep, that's been my experience too. I think it's more likely to be a product of why you are an expat in the first place. I've met people in Tokyo, Hong Kong etc who there purely because of company transfers. They have zero interest in the local culture or settling into the country. And it's totally understandable that they want to stick to their expat enclaves, especially if they've transferred through multiple countries in a short space of time.

Then you get expats who are totally obsessed with one part of the local culture to the exclusion of all else.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Because anything by Russell is worth reading...

http://russellblake.com/down-meheeco-wayyyyy/


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Perry Constantine said:


> I was born and raised in America and lived abroad for almost a decade and that's not been my experience at all. I grew up in Chicago and my grandparents lived in Clearwater and I spent three months of every year of my life until I was about fifteen in Florida. With my mother's job as a convention planner, she traveled a lot and would frequently take us with her, so I've traveled to many different states.
> 
> Yes, you can experience many different climates in America and sure, there might be some small cultural differences, but there's absolutely no comparison to the diversity of culture when you leave America and visit Mexico, Japan, Thailand, Korea, the Philippines, etc.
> 
> ...


It makes no difference if you disagree. You are one person. If thousands of people get sick going to a restaurant and you say "It always good for me" do you think all those people are just going to go along with you?

Give me a break. And if you think the experience in Korean is THAT different than Japan but experience from New York city to Appalachia isn't I don't know what to tell you.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Perry Constantine said:


> I was born and raised in America and lived abroad for almost a decade and that's not been my experience at all. I grew up in Chicago and my grandparents lived in Clearwater and I spent three months of every year of my life until I was about fifteen in Florida. With my mother's job as a convention planner, she traveled a lot and would frequently take us with her, so I've traveled to many different states.
> 
> Yes, you can experience many different climates in America and sure, there might be some small cultural differences, but there's absolutely no comparison to the diversity of culture when you leave America and visit Mexico, Japan, Thailand, Korea, the Philippines, etc.
> 
> It's also not my experience that non-American expats are always holed up in the pub or in their little enclaves. My regular expat group was evenly mixed between Americans, Australians, Kiwis, Scots, and Brits, and we often went out with the locals. I knew plenty of Americans who would never interact with the locals and only ever stayed in their apartments.


I agree. We lived in four states and two places outside the US when I was growing up. Sure, there are some regional differences, but they're minor relative to most countries- especially countries with two or more official languages.

In my experiences abroad I've been both in and outside of expat bubbles and I haven't noticed them being particularly dominated by one nationality. I do think not having the kind of easy access to other countries and cultures that Europeans have- being able to travel a couple of hours and find themselves in a completely new place with a different language and possibly different currency tends to make both Americans and Brits somewhat more parochial than most Europeans, though, and our extremely short vacation times in America definitely put us at a disadvantage when it comes to travel- in OR outside the US.

I used to be pretty snobby about foreigners who lived here long term without learning the language, history or customs, but as I've become friends with so many of them I've gotten a lot more tolerant. They just add a colorful, multicultural dimension to a city that was historically, a major European crossroads.

The only ones I really can't tolerate are the ones who come here, complain incessantly about the locals, the language and the culture, but won't leave.


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## George Donnelly (Mar 5, 2012)

I think it certainly helps. I live in Colombia. Great weather, low cost of living. I can live just fine, work part-time and have the rest of my time for writing.


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## Felix R. Savage (Mar 3, 2011)

I live in Japan. Do NOT choose Tokyo as your expat destination if the goal is to save money, although if you are a heavy consumer of health care you can probably live cheaper vis-a-vis the US as health care here is reasonably priced and excellent. And children get their health care FREE, yes 100% free. I love Japan!

Interestingly however, the longer I live here, the more I tend to write about / from within the cultures of the countries where I grew up (Ireland and Scotland). Childhood experience is formative, later experiences are just gravy. I'd be interested to know if other expats tend to write about the cultures where they now live, or if their minds are stuck at home like mine. I speak fluent Japanese so it's not that I don't grasp the local culture. It's more that I DO grasp the fact that I am not qualified to write from a Japanese point of view, so I'm less interested in attempting it (unless in a far future outer space setting or something  ).


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Felix R. Savage said:


> Interestingly however, the longer I live here, the more I tend to write about / from within the cultures of the countries where I grew up (Ireland and Scotland). Childhood experience is formative, later experiences are just gravy. I'd be interested to know if other expats tend to write about the cultures where they now live, or if their minds are stuck at home like mine. I speak fluent Japanese so it's not that I don't grasp the local culture. It's more that I DO grasp the fact that I am not qualified to write from a Japanese point of view, so I'm less interested in attempting it (unless in a far future outer space setting or something  ).


A little of both. My Japanese is far from fluent, but I launched my Nakamura Detective Series because I read a lot of news about Japan and wanted to incorporate the little daily things about living in Japan into my writing. I've also used a lot of folktales in the Japanese literature class I used to teach, so that's given me an itch to do some retellings.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Locking so I can catch up.  You know, reports....

EDIT:  I've done some pruning of personal comments and responses to them.  A reminder that not all comments need to be responded to, and if you think a post is inappropriate, report it rather than respond, so as to not derail the thread. 

Reopening as the topic is of interest to the community.  Don't make me get the cattle prod back from Dan.


Betsy
KB Mod


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Felix R. Savage said:


> Interestingly however, the longer I live here, the more I tend to write about / from within the cultures of the countries where I grew up (Ireland and Scotland). Childhood experience is formative, later experiences are just gravy. I'd be interested to know if other expats tend to write about the cultures where they now live, or if their minds are stuck at home like mine. I speak fluent Japanese so it's not that I don't grasp the local culture. It's more that I DO grasp the fact that I am not qualified to write from a Japanese point of view, so I'm less interested in attempting it (unless in a far future outer space setting or something  ).


I think because we moved so much I haven't got nearly as much sense of 'home' as most people. And I've always loved travel, even as a little kid going on the long car trip across the country every year with my family to visit grandparents in California. Anything that gives me a different perspective on things- travel, learning other languages, reading about other times and cultures, meeting people who are really different from me, has always been a source of fascination. My books are all historicals, taking place in different locations, with characters of different races, religions, gender and sexual orientations from my own. I do generally keep my POV characters closer to my experience in one way or another than some of the others, but no, I'm not really writing about anything that would have been familiar to me in my childhood. The third (or maybe the fourth) book in my series is going to take my characters through the old Austro Hungarian empire, particularly Bohemia. I've done some of the research in Czech. Really looking forward to learning more!


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Anarchist said:


> That's interesting, Alan. Do you know why so many expats end up leaving Costa Rica?


These are just my opinions, but Costa Rica has become a lot more expensive than it used to be. The same two-lane roads are carrying a lot more cars than forty years ago, so traffic is awful and there is zero chance of improving the roads.

Crime has gotten worse with the drug cartel crap oozing its way there.

I also think that the proper mindset is needed and speaking the language will help more than expats think.

As a foreigner expect to have folks try to get you to pay more for goods and services in comparison to the locals. Another reason to learn the language.

On the mindset... a lot of expats want all the conveniences of their home country there and they can't handle the slower pace, the annoying red tape to get anything done, paying bills and going to the bank can be a pain. Although a lot of progress has been in the last decade on bill paying, etc. So if you have the right mindset that you're moving to another country and your patient, then you'll do better.

Some expats don't think and do things they would never do back in their home country because they have this romanticized view of the tropical paradise and end up getting ripped off big time, especially when it comes to real estate.

I've known expats that got fleeced and had to back to their home country with their tail between their legs. And some had retired to live down there only to get ripped off and needed to go back to the US and/or Canada to go back to work. It's sad.

Some expats move to remote areas where it's cheaper and less crowded, but then they become isolated and go back home.

I should say some of this won't apply to a young person who wants to move as part of a writer's strategy as per the op.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Alan Petersen said:


> These are just my opinions, but Costa Rica has become a lot more expensive than it used to be. The same two-lane roads are carrying a lot more cars than forty years ago, so traffic is awful and there is zero chance of improving the roads.
> 
> Crime has gotten worse with the drug cartel crap oozing its way there.
> 
> ...


With the exception of drug cartels and crime it sounds pretty similar to the list for Prague. We just had a lot of ranting on the main expat forum here over a sign posted at a local registration office saying that foreigners expecting to get registration needed to either speak Czech or bring an interpreter with them. The amount of outrage over the mere suggestion that Czechs should be allowed to live and work in their own country without learning a foreign language was mind boggling. Especially considering most of the complainers were monolingual English speakers.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Sarah Shaw said:


> With the exception of drug cartels and crime it sounds pretty similar to the list for Prague. We just had a lot of ranting on the main expat forum here over a sign posted at a local registration office saying that foreigners expecting to get registration needed to either speak Czech or bring an interpreter with them. The amount of outrage over the mere suggestion that Czechs should be allowed to live and work in their own country without learning a foreign language was mind boggling. Especially considering most of the complainers were monolingual English speakers.


Expats like that drive me nuts. You're in a foreign country, you should make the effort to adapt. You don't have to give up your own culture or anything like that, but you should at least try to learn the local language. It was always nice when I was in Japan and found a place that had English support, but if there wasn't any, then I just accepted it and did the best I could or brought an interpreter.


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

I've been an expat since 1993 (lived in Russia, Croatia, China, Iceland, Azerbaijan, Hungary, and now Bahamas). The experience has certainly filtered into my writing, but I can't say it helps at all with readers discovering I exist.


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Felix R. Savage said:


> I'd be interested to know if other expats tend to write about the cultures where they now live, or if their minds are stuck at home like mine.


I grew up in Arizona but haven't written much about that part of my life other than to start a character in Phoenix before he departs for Russia. Mostly I have written using my experiences in Russia, and a bit from Iceland. But Russian Studies was also one of my majors in college, and those four years living in Russia in the early 90's were a huge impact on my life.


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## Scott Reeves (May 27, 2011)

You know why there's so much cultural diversity between countries in Europe and Asia in the first place? Because most of the natives don't travel! They like their own culture, and they continue to practice it despite the intrusion of foreigners. And those that do travel either keep on traveling to experience as much diversity as possible, eventually settling in a foreign country, where they have no impact on the culture with their foreign ideas, or they come back to their home country and settle down, their newly expanded minds having no impact on their native culture.

Think about it. If all Europeans are so open to other cultures and have traveled widely and had their minds opened, then all that diversity between countries would have been diluted so that the world becomes just one big country with a common culture. Maybe that's what's happening in Europe now. If so, experience and enjoy that cultural diversity while it lasts, because that diversity is there precisely because those countries were all once relatively isolated, since for most of history, traveling abroad wasn't easy at all. 

That mind-expanding diversity expats value is DESTROYED by everyone traveling abroad, it isn't helped by it. Diversity exists precisely because of the parochial, conservative, isolationist natives which expats all seem to be poo-pooing. They're traveling to expand their horizons and transcend or better appreciate their own culture, yet the ability to do that in fact DEPENDS upon the vast majority of the world remaining non-"open-minded" homebodies who enjoy and want to perpetuate their own culture rather than seeing it diluted and perhaps even done away with. It's highly ironic. 

Conservative, parochial natives make possible the mind-expanding expat experience, and in order for that to remain possible for future expats, the vast majority of the world's people MUST remain parochial and culturally conservative. The continued existence of cultural diversity depends upon isolationism and conservatism. Yet the very people who claim to most value cultural diversity usually adhere to a politics that will ultimately destroy it.

As for the notion that vast numbers of Europeans are allegedly so open-minded to foreign travel and do so quite regularly, while Americans aren't and don't, it's due solely to geographical and financial factors. A trip to anywhere but Mexico or Canada will cost thousands of dollars for a US citizen. Plane ticket across the ocean, room and board, etc. 

Constrast that with someone in Europe, who can visit a foreign country for just a few dollars (Euros, pounds, whatever). Get up in the morning, throw a few things in a backpack, hop on a train and be in a foreign country by noon or even earlier, do a little sight-seeing, be back home by dinner, without having had to break the bank by doing so. For a US citizen, a trip to a foreign country, whether for a vacation or a move, is a huge undertaking, both financially and preparation-wise. 

With the average American household income being about $51,000 a year, and more than half of working Americans making far less than that (less than $30,000, in fact), foreign travel simply isn't feasible. It's not that average Americans have small, closed minds and don't WANT to visit foreign countries. It's that it's not financially POSSIBLE for the average American to visit foreign countries. Make it as simple as hopping on a train and spending a day's pay or less, the way it is for Europeans, and I'm sure the average American would be visiting a foreign country every weekend.

As proof, research where most Europeans go on their vacations. They go to other European countries. Most of them don't come to the Americas. Do you believe this is because they hate the U.S. and don't want to visit it? No. It’s because crossing the Atlantic or the Pacific is cost-prohibitive for most people, anywhere in the world. When the EU finally becomes culturally homogenized due to ease of travel and the broadening of horizons and attitudes that allegedly comes with such travel, Europeans from that point on are going to possess the same lack of experience of cultural diversity that Americans are currently alleged to possess, assuming that overseas travel remains cost-prohibitive.

As for moving to a foreign country, I would say it’s likely that most American expats have a college education (only 33% of Americans have a college education) AND/OR have very marketable job skills. Or they're retired. Or they've saved up a lot of money, which means they probably had a very good-paying job for years, because the average American is living paycheck to paycheck without any significant savings.

So if you're an expat, you're highly educated, AND you already had enough money to be ABLE to become an expat. Your average American can't afford to become an expat, just as your average American can't afford a trip to a foreign country. You think a Circle K clerk, for example, would be able to say, "Hey, I think I'll become an expat next year," and actually be able to pull it off?

Unless he wants to become a homeless person, stow away aboard a ship or a plane or something, and sneak into a foreign country, with no employment prospects and no in-demand skills he can work with and maybe five hundred dollars to his name, your average American ain't going to no foreign country, whether for a vacation or for a move. It's just a fact of geography and the economy, nothing more. The average American is effectively a prisoner in his/her own country. 

So if you're an American expat, then you weren't an average American to begin with. An average American, living an average American lifestyle, probably wouldn't notice much difference in expenses if he moved to a foreign country, provided he didn't move to a third-world country where half the population is starving and/or living in mud huts.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Scott Reeves said:


> You know why there's so much cultural diversity between countries in Europe and Asia in the first place? Because most of the natives don't travel! They like their own culture, and they continue to practice it despite the intrusion of foreigners. And those that do travel either keep on traveling to experience as much diversity as possible, eventually settling in a foreign country, where they have no impact on the culture with their foreign ideas, or they come back to their home country and settle down, their newly expanded minds having no impact on their native culture.
> 
> Think about it. If all Europeans are so open to other cultures and have traveled widely and had their minds opened, then all that diversity between countries would have been diluted so that the world becomes just one big country with a common culture. Maybe that's what's happening in Europe now. If so, experience and enjoy that cultural diversity while it lasts, because that diversity is there precisely because those countries were all once relatively isolated, since for most of history, traveling abroad wasn't easy at all.
> 
> ...


Quite a few thought-provoking and valuable points here, Scott. But folks, if we're going to keep this thread open, it really needs to remain focused on the experience and possibility of being an expat writer. These larger questions/issues are essentially political (as you can tell from the intrusion of political terms like "isolationist," "conservative," and ... er ... "politics"), and are therefore not appropriate for discussion on this forum, politics and religion being no-go areas on KBoards.


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## C.D. Watson (Mar 26, 2016)

kathrynoh said:


> I travel permanently and I've found almost anywhere in the world is cheaper than Australia, except maybe Hong Kong.
> 
> As a writer, seeing life through fresh eyes is always an asset. It's not just about exploring new places but having a different perspective on life back home.





My Dog's Servant said:


> I wish you'd write a book about managing a peripatetic life like yours, Kathrynoh.


Me, too!

I've always wanted to travel. Writing is the perfect career for that, both in terms of portability and the creative boost. Last year, I began prepping for a (domestic and foreign) traveling lifestyle: Passport, Global Entry card, a Surface Pro 4 (which does duty as a tablet, laptop, camera, and voice recorder, among other things), and so on. So glad this thread was started!

As a side note, for those wondering how they can possibly afford travel on a tiny income, I recommend David Bach's _Smart Women Finish Rich_.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

Thomas Wolfe (the one from North Carolina, not the one in the white suit) had a great bit in one of his later novels. Some expats in Paris are chatting, and one says wistfully, "I wish I could go down to Spain and do some writing!"

If anyone is inclined to go to Spain and do some writing, bear in mind that US residents are responsible for paying taxes no matter where they live....


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Alan Petersen said:


> These are just my opinions, but Costa Rica has become a lot more expensive than it used to be. The same two-lane roads are carrying a lot more cars than forty years ago, so traffic is awful and there is zero chance of improving the roads.
> 
> Crime has gotten worse with the drug cartel crap oozing its way there.
> 
> ...


Good to know, Alan. Although I've thought about leaving the U.S. behind one day, I never seriously considered Costa Rica as a destination. It has seemed (to me) too idealized among the aspiring-expat community.

Your comments about the country reinforce those feelings.

Thanks for laying it out for me.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Good to know, Alan. Although I've thought about leaving the U.S. behind one day, I never seriously considered Costa Rica as a destination. It has seemed (to me) too idealized among the aspiring-expat community.
> 
> Your comments about the country reinforce those feelings.
> 
> Thanks for laying it out for me.


I have heard excellent things about Medellin, and considered that as a potential destination, but always thought Costa Rica seemed to touristy.

But, I came here in large part due to the points made in the blog post you mentioned. I have purposely avoided the expat communities as I wanted to be part of the culture here and not surround myself with retired Americans.

I had a fantastic taxi ride home one night. The taxi driver, who spoke almost no English, at least understood my explanation that I've moved to GDL and wasn't a tourist. He got that I wrote books and so he whipped out his iPhone and pulls up his favorite American author. Then he asks me when my stuff will be in Spanish...ha ha ha.... A long time I told him.

I know for sure that being here has motivated and inspired my writing.

For one thing, if you have any success at all.....and just having a few books published on Amazon with nice covers is a huge accomplishment...you an instantly an interesting person and people enjoy asking you about things.

I had a great talk in broken English at a pub with a guy who explained that his favorite writers were Lovecraft, Sir A.C.Doyle, Tolkien, and George R.R. Martin. We discussed over beer and cigarettes how much we loved Game of Thrones.

At one point he reached out and took the smoke from my hand, took a puff, and handed it back. Male bonding... ha ha..

Then, when the pub closed, the beautiful rocker chick sitting next to him asked me (through an interpreter) if I'd join them as they headed to somewhere still open.

I've found the people here welcoming, helpful, interesting, kind, and so forth...maybe it's just different..who knows, but it's for sure helped my writing and creativity.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Thank you moderators for leaving this running.

I never wanted to open a political discussion.

What I would like to say about politics and the American news, and so forth is that getting away from that, and not just news, but American television and American dramas, has been AMAZING for creativity.

This isn't new...but not having a television, not watching the news, not reading a newspaper..etc...it's very liberating, as everyone might imagine.  What being here does is to MAKE it easier to avoid.

I will, however, possibly...maybe, be hunting for a restaurant or bar that is going to have a Game of Thrones night.

Of course with the internet you can get anything here, obviously, but I'd already given up watching the news and following politics anyway as a way to be more concentrated on writing and creativity.

All that said, it's not a panacea here for becoming rich and famous and writing a 450 page book a month...but it's definitely more conducive to sitting down each day and getting in lots of hours of writing/editing/etc...


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

JaydenHunter said:


> Thank you moderators for leaving this running.
> 
> I never wanted to open a political discussion.
> 
> ...


It will depend on one's priorities. There are no generalizations in life. Are you married? Do you have kids? When I was younger I traveled a lot too (hey, maybe that's where my creativity comes from?) and I lived on three different continents! But my kids are a bit older now - and they need stability. They need a good education. They are probably the only kids in the world that beg NOT to go on an aeroplane because they did that so regularly. So I had to settle down - so they can make friends, have a sense of security and stability.

So if you are young - go for it! If you are old and retired - probably go for it too! But if you have children - for their sake don't keep moving and don't stay in countries where they have no proper peers and good schools. Especially when they reach like 10 years of age...


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

JaydenHunter said:


> I have heard excellent things about Medellin, and considered that as a potential destination, but always thought Costa Rica seemed to touristy.


That always cracks me up. The tourists complaining that a place too touristy. I do that as well when I travel. 

Glad that's sparking a creative buzz for you! That's always a good thing and travel is fun.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Melody Simmons said:


> But my kids are a bit older now - and they need stability. They need a good education. They are probably the only kids in the world that beg NOT to go on an aeroplane because they did that so regularly. So I had to settle down - so they can make friends, have a sense of security and stability.


My son hated travelling when he was still at home. I'd have never traveled with him because of those reasons and also because he'd have been constantly nagging, which would've been a pain for both of us.

It always amazes me when people ask if they could go nomad with kids. Like no one develops a personality until they turn 18 and before that, you can lump all kids in together. Some kids are going to thrive in an environment of constant change and some will be as miserable as hell.

IMO there is way too much advice to follow your dreams NOW online. Of course, that sells but it's not always the best way. You have to sort out what's an excuse that you are just using to hold yourself back and what's a real responsibility that needs to be top priority in your life.


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

My kids spent their entire lives moving from country to country. They speak perfect American English but don't feel like Americans in a real sense, especially once they returned to the US for college, where they felt so out of place. There are true benefits of living a worldly life, but there are drawbacks as well.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

I'm so glad I finally checked out this thread. I've been thinking about leaving the U.S. too -- I've had enough American drama for a lifetime -- but I would definitely need to find a place that isn't expensive and has good health care (I have an autoimmune disease that may be developing into Lupus, and requires medication and monitoring).

I don't have children, but even if I did, I don't think that'd stop me. I think it depends on how you treat them. Are they just extra pieces of baggage in your adventures? Or are you involving them in the process? I know someone who lived as a nomad for a year, traveling across the U.S. in an RV with their family of four. Their kids loved it, but I think that's mostly because they were included.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

I'm in the process of researching where we're going to move. I have friends trying to talk me into Ecuador or Belize, but that's too far from places I want to visit. Somewhere in Europe. Ireland or the UK would be nice because of English, but it's so expensive. Strongly considering Portugal or Spain. If the current regime in Russia wasn't so autocratic and confrontational, then St. Petersburg would fit the bill quite nicely. I hear nice things about Prague. The thing is, I can write anywhere. Trying to get my SO's online career kickstarted. But within the next two years, I'll be spending a large portion of my time out of the U.S.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

My family lived in China for nearly five years as expats. However, we were under the protection (and expenses) of my husband's company. I turned my journal from those years into my first book, a memoir. The success of that memoir -- recently rolled over 100,000 copies sold -- was the catalyst for me trading my HR background for a career as a novelist.  

I've been home in the states for a decade now and about a year ago we got the bug to be expats again. This time on our own dime. We researched many countries, but ultimately set our sights on Panama. We took a two-week relocation tour and it was the coolest thing ever. For a couple of grand (for both of us), we got to join a dozen or so other couples from all over the world and tour the cities, country, and beaches of Panama. We were taken to different housing options, something fitting everyone's budget. We even talked to other expats who lived in various cities and towns. Many of them on less than $1000 a month. One woman was living a great life for only $600 a month in Boquete. The tour included a hospital visit if we chose, as well as quick trips through grocery stores, banks, etc.. to see what it would be like to live there. 

From all that we saw, I knew I could make a living there just by my writing income. We decided to go and sold nearly everything. Then life threw us a curve ball and we had to change plans. All that said to tell you that if you can save up for a relocation tour, I think it's is the best way to make such a life-changing decision. 

PS. I wrote about the boots-on-the-ground Panama tour, too. So the trip wasn't a total loss because I got to write off part of it, as well as experience a new country and it's culture. We also bonded with three other American couples, two of which did move Panama and now we have an open invitation to visit and a free place to stay.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Before kids, we rented out our house and lived abroad for a year. Twice. (Different places).

I can tell you from personal experience that it isn't all it's cracked up to be. Whether it be in the South of France among the vines, or on the rugged coast of Wales, I was desperately relieved to get home again. I didn't see it at the time (I am cheerful and make the best of things in general), but once we were back it was like the sun after a storm. I was convinced I wanted to live the good life in the country, but it turns out that I didn't.

I won't leave again... England is home and sometimes home truly is what we need to be happy even if we can't see that except with hindsight.

But I definitely want a little holiday house in France when I retire


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

Evenstar said:


> Whether it be in the South of France among the vines, or on the rugged coast of Wales....


I'm trying to grow vines on the rugged coast of Wales. Should I seek therapy or raise a glass to optimism?


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

JaydenHunter said:


> If you're renting a house, I think you could bring a tiger as long as you paid your rent.


That right there could be fodder for many books.


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

Getting old and frail in my "old age" the ex-pat life on foreign soil is probably not in the cards for me. I'd love to move to Florence for a couple of years and attend classes at the Academy of Art, but maybe in the next life.

The idea I've been mulling over for the past few months is getting rid of half my stuff, or more, and getting a 25-30' RV and hitting the road and traveling all over the U.S. and Canada. I can do my writing from anywhere and being an artist, I'd get to work a little on my landscape painting. That would be the life that would appeal to me.


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

Doglover said:


> Well then; going abroad didn't do him much good, did it?


The king of France was sitting at his bedside and holding his hand when he died. I'm guessing he had a pretty good life up until he died there.


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

Anarchist said:


> That's interesting, Alan. Do you know why so many expats end up leaving Costa Rica?


Cost of living, a tropical climate and a large expat community.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

brkingsolver said:


> I'm in the process of researching where we're going to move. I have friends trying to talk me into Ecuador or Belize, but that's too far from places I want to visit. Somewhere in Europe. Ireland or the UK would be nice because of English, but it's so expensive. Strongly considering Portugal or Spain. If the current regime in Russia wasn't so autocratic and confrontational, then St. Petersburg would fit the bill quite nicely. I hear nice things about Prague. The thing is, I can write anywhere. Trying to get my SO's online career kickstarted. But within the next two years, I'll be spending a large portion of my time out of the U.S.


I spent two months in Porto this year. It's very cheap. I had a huge apartment with study and a weekly linen service for well under a grand (Australia, so even less in USD). I did find the food a bit heavy though. It's a very meat and carb based diet. Lisbon is a bit more expensive but much nicer.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

brkingsolver said:


> I'm in the process of researching where we're going to move. I have friends trying to talk me into Ecuador or Belize, but that's too far from places I want to visit. Somewhere in Europe. Ireland or the UK would be nice because of English, but it's so expensive. Strongly considering Portugal or Spain. If the current regime in Russia wasn't so autocratic and confrontational, then St. Petersburg would fit the bill quite nicely. I hear nice things about Prague. The thing is, I can write anywhere. Trying to get my SO's online career kickstarted. But within the next two years, I'll be spending a large portion of my time out of the U.S.


Writers living in Ireland can claim an artist's tax exemption on their income from sales of their work. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax/artists_exemption_from_income_tax.html
But it rains a lot!


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

dgcasey said:


> Getting old and frail in my "old age" the ex-pat life on foreign soil is probably not in the cards for me. I'd love to move to Florence for a couple of years and attend classes at the Academy of Art, but maybe in the next life.
> 
> The idea I've been mulling over for the past few months is getting rid of half my stuff, or more, and getting a 25-30' RV and hitting the road and traveling all over the U.S. and Canada. I can do my writing from anywhere and being an artist, I'd get to work a little on my landscape painting. That would be the life that would appeal to me.


I got rid of 98% of my belongings. I was being literal when I said everything I owned weighed about 57 pounds because I had to take one commercial airliner from the east coast to Cali before getting to the border.

Btw, there's an old friend of my dad's who bought a four-wheel drive RV van and spent 3 years traveling the coast from Baja, Mexico, up to Oregon. He finally sold his RV and bought a house in the woods, but he really enjoyed the camping along the beaches of Baja and made many friends (including snow bird Canadians).

If you're young enough to travel in an RV, you're certainly young enough to expat just about anywhere. But, if you like traveling and camping then there are literally thousands of people that do this and you'll end up making friends.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

elizabethbarone said:


> I'm so glad I finally checked out this thread. I've been thinking about leaving the U.S. too -- I've had enough American drama for a lifetime -- but I would definitely need to find a place that isn't expensive and has good health care (I have an autoimmune disease that may be developing into Lupus, and requires medication and monitoring).


Lots of places have good health care, some better than others. Here in Mexico, from what I've heard, basic health care is cheap and the doctors are good. I've talked to a few people that told me that many Americans come to GDL for medical school, but that's just third hand, so I can't verify it.

What I can mention is the blog somewhere in here that someone posted RE: Russell Blake's musing on Mexico. I think he talks about medical stuff in that blog. Basically you don't need insurance here, you just pay for your doctor and hospital visits as they are very affordable.

I went to the clinic with flu symptoms and it was about $4 USD to see the doctor and less than $10 USD to get all the meds I needed (antibiotics, some electrolyte fluids, and a pain killer, oh, plus some other thing...ha ha, I don't remember I just drank it).

Hope you find a way to try, it's really changed my life forever.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

brkingsolver said:


> I'm in the process of researching where we're going to move. I have friends trying to talk me into Ecuador or Belize, but that's too far from places I want to visit. Somewhere in Europe. Ireland or the UK would be nice because of English, but it's so expensive. Strongly considering Portugal or Spain. If the current regime in Russia wasn't so autocratic and confrontational, then St. Petersburg would fit the bill quite nicely. I hear nice things about Prague. The thing is, I can write anywhere. Trying to get my SO's online career kickstarted. But within the next two years, I'll be spending a large portion of my time out of the U.S.


There is, I've heard, a big indie writer community in Ecuador. I think Belize has become another place, like Costa Rica, that has got so much attention and so many expats, that it's not so cheap and not so "third worldish" if that's what you're looking for.

If you live in a cheap Latin American country, you can afford to fly to Europe, so there's that as a consideration. There's tons of German's here in GDL, although I'm told the flights to here are expensive because it's not a tourist destination, but the flights to the coastal tourist towns are pretty reasonable.

I never considered Europe due to the cost and also the social unrest. I feel safer here in Mexico than I'd feel even in London, but maybe that's just being paranoid. I do feel like if there's conflict (bombings, riots, shootings) it's vastly more likely to be in Europe than say Mexico or Colombia, etc.

But, of course, everyone has their own tastes and such. And, also, to be fair, I don't know what I don't know.... I love it here, but God, maybe if I was in Berlin or St. Petersburg or Vietnam I'd be in love too....

It's hard to know.

Sort of like having a mate...you love the one you're with, but that doesn't mean all the other countries are terrible options.


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## jbrown67 (Jan 12, 2015)

That's awesome to hear!

I'm doing the same thing but working as a freelance digital artist. I do make a good amount of money but it goes way further here. For about $650 USD/month I rent a huge 4 bedroom 6 bathroom house in a gated community with a yard and a pool, I own a new car and I am saving up to buy a house here in Mexico. Living back home (Canada) I would have to pay over $2500 per month to have a house anything close to this one. 

Learning a second or third language is amazing in terms of keeping your mind active and creative as well. I really think it is one of the best things creative people can possibly do.


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## Travelian (Jun 1, 2017)

JaydenHunter said:


> I feel safer here in Mexico than I'd feel even in London, but maybe that's just being paranoid. I do feel like if there's conflict (bombings, riots, shootings) it's vastly more likely to be in Europe than say Mexico or Colombia, etc.


I've looked at places to move and ruled out Central/South America because I have exactly the opposite feeling about those places.

I lump drug cartels right alongside political unrest and terrorist attacks. In all cases, it's a matter of wrong place-wrong time. In terms of safety, you also have to factor in police corruption and social inequality. Which also works against Mexico, etc.

In terms of Europe I'd love to live somewhere close to the Mediterranean like Spain or Cyprus. But it seems hard to get a long-term visa unless you're wealthy or an EU citizen.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Travelian said:


> I've looked at places to move and ruled out Central/South America because I have exactly the opposite feeling about those places.
> 
> I lump drug cartels right alongside political unrest and terrorist attacks. In all cases, it's a matter of wrong place-wrong time. In terms of safety, you also have to factor in police corruption and social inequality. Which also works against Mexico, etc.
> 
> In terms of Europe I'd love to live somewhere close to the Mediterranean like Spain or Cyprus. But it seems hard to get a long-term visa unless you're wealthy or an EU citizen.


The drug cartels do not target civilian populations as a rule, even the American "travel warnings" on the State Department website don't give warnings in general, just specific areas (and often specific times).

Now, all that said, even though the terrorism stuff makes the news, it's still going to be rare to be bombed or shot...

Social inequity is everywhere, in my opinion, but indeed, Mexico does have a very sharp class system.

Nothing is perfect. When it comes to the cost of living, both Latin America and much of SE Asia have an advantage over Europe.

My brother expatted to Indo (Jakarta) for 8 years and he loved living there, but it's a different world for sure.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Abderian said:


> Writers living in Ireland can claim an artist's tax exemption on their income from sales of their work. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax/artists_exemption_from_income_tax.html
> But it rains a lot!


Thank you. I wasn't aware of this. The problem is that the U.S. wants to tax everything no matter where it's earned (major corporations excepted). Going to Ireland in Sept, and people I've corresponded with who live there seem to always mention the rain. Other than some rural areas of Scotland, the UK seems awfully expensive. That would be my SO's first choice. My SO is already an expat, and a linguist, so changing cultures doesn't bother her very much.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> Thank you. I wasn't aware of this. The problem is that the U.S. wants to tax everything no matter where it's earned (major corporations excepted). Going to Ireland in Sept, and people I've corresponded with who live there seem to always mention the rain. Other than some rural areas of Scotland, the UK seems awfully expensive. That would be my SO's first choice. My SO is already an expat, and a linguist, so changing cultures doesn't bother her very much.


That's one thing expats learn the hard way. Uncle Sam wants their cut no matter where or how long you live outside of the US. It's sad but some long-time expats are forced into making the difficult decision of renouncing their citizenship and they don't want to but financially they're backed into a corner. Folks who have lived 20-40 years abroad and don't generate income in the US, they don't own property there, and don't go back to use Medicare or anything like that and the Uncle still expects them to pay up.


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## Brad__W (Feb 27, 2013)

brkingsolver said:


> Going to Ireland in Sept, and people I've corresponded with who live there seem to always mention the rain.


Sometimes I think it is a myth perpetuated by folks here  Depending on where you live in Ireland, the rain here is not too much different compared to elsewhere in Europe... over on the west coast you can expect a few drops more than in Dublin or at the base of the Wicklow Mountains. Any time there is more than two drops of rain, it's seen as a wet day  What usually happens here is you get four seasons in one day (sunny morning, raining next, perhaps a dash of snow or sleet soon after, followed by a pleasant balmy evening - or a frozen wasteland of ice - depending on the time of year). But after living in the heat and flies of West Australia for more than 40 years, it's great to be living somewhere with a different climate. As my wife always says, a non-stop blue sky gets you down as much as a non-stop grey sky.

As for what others have said for traveling with kid(s), we traveled voraciously with our little one across Europe, Russia and US until she hit about 4 years... then we went home to Australia for a few years before deciding to go back to Ireland. Now she is in school, our travel is curtailed somewhat to avoid disrupting her schooling and limited to the long weekends and holiday periods. Sure I can write anywhere, but it seems Ireland (and Russia) work best for my creative process, and Dublin as a location to use as a springboard to get elsewhere in the northern hemisphere is fantastic. 3 hours to Berlin and Vienna, 45 minutes to London, 6-7 hours to the East Coast USA, and so on, and if you need to defrost, Greece, Portugal or Spain are just a cheap flight away.

I'm not sure if I would see Central America the same way, but that's more of a cultural thing... growing up as an Aussie, Europe was always the place for us to get away to live.


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## schweinsty (Jul 14, 2014)

Oh, fun thread! I'd been wondering about indies living ex-pats--I've seen a few online, but never seen threads about it. I'm planning on moving to Mexico as soon as the writing gives me a livable income--may be a while yet-- rimarily for financial reasons, but I technically wouldn't be an ex-pat--I'm half Mexican, half American, & have dual citizenship, though I've lived in the States since childhood. I can definitely recommend the Mexican healthcare system; doctors are well-trained, and it's cheeeaaaap compared to the US--half the reason I'm planning on moving is the chronic health conditions that make life over here far more costly  (also, dental work is actually affordable in Mexico). And as long as you're careful (don't hitchhike out of Mexico City at 3 in the morning by yourself, for example), there are plenty of safe places to live.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm a language nerd, so I'm curious about those who can say they're fluent in another language after having lived abroad. How long did it take you to reach fluency, and what methods did you use. For a native English speaker, just living abroad isn't enough, of course, especially if you are living in a country where English knowledge is widespread, like most countries in Western Europe.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I used to work to have to live. Now I live to work... when I feel like it. It wasn't part of my strategy, but that's how it worked out when I moved to Brazil. It still depends on financial circumstances, but it enabled me to retire 7 years before I was officially due. Still, I can't say that it has helped me to earn a living from writing, or that I have increased my output as the beaches, sunshine, and socializing etc have eaten into my time. Back home, I wouldn't have had time to write anything.

If you own a home outright, the cost of living is peanuts here compared to the US or the UK. Also If you have money to bank, the interest rates have been megga during my time here. Average 10% or more over the period. No need to heat a home, so no gas or heating bills etc etc. In fact the monthly utility bills individually are no more than a meal out in many countries.

We're just about to start on a new adventure and to move to Portugal, if for no other reason that they have free healthcare and the cost of living is low, together with a great climate in the south. And of course, living in Brazil for 7 years, I now speak the language.

@Monkishscribe. I was lucky that my wife speaks Portuguese and English, but it took me years to get a hang of the lingo, in part because my life revolves around my office where I write. It's also too easy to discover other expats, or friends who speak both languages and I  ended up talking a mixture of English and Portuguese until I got the hang of it. I'm lazy though. I could have learned the language a lot quicker, but the first thing I did was to sign up for cable TV with all the English speaking channels. Every one is crazy to learn English here, but not many speak it well.

I tried many methods to learn. The first thing was to use sticky notes everywhere at home with the Portuguese names for knife, fork, spoon, door, wall chair, table, bed,  etc. I carried a phraze book everywhere with me. That was about it. The main phrases where to ask for things like. What, where, why, when,  etc.

The good thing is that I can now more or less understand Spanish and Italian.

Bad thing is there is no double tax treaty if I did earn a decent amount in royalites

Good thing with Portugal if you go as a pensioner and get residence, they have a scheme where you pay no tax for 10 years on worldwide income other than is earned in Portugal.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

MonkishScribe said:


> I'm a language nerd, so I'm curious about those who can say they're fluent in another language after having lived abroad. How long did it take you to reach fluency, and what methods did you use. For a native English speaker, just living abroad isn't enough, of course, especially if you are living in a country where English knowledge is widespread, like most countries in Western Europe.


I'm not fluent by any means, but after a year of classes and private tutors, I could navigate my life in China quite well without a translator. I had to be very committed, constantly studying the entire 4+ years but it was after a year of intense training that I really turned a curve and could understand and be understood. I took it as a challenge. The university classes were a fail. I learned more by using flash cards on my own, and joining a small class of 3 other women 'like me' and learning situational Mandarin. Ie: first how to navigate an airport, then a post office, directions, then a grocery store, etc.. The lady we hired to clean also helped me a lot with the local dialect words, which were totally different than Mandarin. Out of a group of about 10 friends (all expats), I'd say I was in the top 2 for speaking the local language.

Unfortunately, I've been back to the USA a decade and have no way to use the skills I learned, so I'm sure I've lost massive Mandarin vocabulary by now. I look back and still can't believe I overcame all that I did in China, including the difficult language. It sort of feels like a dream.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

brkingsolver said:


> Thank you. I wasn't aware of this. The problem is that the U.S. wants to tax everything no matter where it's earned (major corporations excepted). Going to Ireland in Sept, and people I've corresponded with who live there seem to always mention the rain. Other than some rural areas of Scotland, the UK seems awfully expensive. That would be my SO's first choice. My SO is already an expat, and a linguist, so changing cultures doesn't bother her very much.


Does anyone know if the foreign earned income exclusion applies to book royalties? Some people said it does, other people said it doesn't, and I've also heard that if you paid taxes on those earnings in a foreign country, the US won't double-tax you. Basically I've heard so many different things and am not in a place where I'm ready to consult a tax expert on this, but I'm wondering if anyone has and if they've gotten a straight answer.

Alternatively, couldn't you set up an LLC or something in the country where you live and hire yourself as an employee? Because then you would be getting paid by a foreign company and it would qualify for the FEIE.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Perry Constantine said:


> Does anyone know if the foreign earned income exclusion applies to book royalties? Some people said it does, other people said it doesn't, and I've also heard that if you paid taxes on those earnings in a foreign country, the US won't double-tax you. Basically I've heard so many different things and am not in a place where I'm ready to consult a tax expert on this, but I'm wondering if anyone has and if they've gotten a straight answer.
> 
> Alternatively, couldn't you set up an LLC or something in the country where you live and hire yourself as an employee? Because then you would be getting paid by a foreign company and it would qualify for the FEIE.





> The problem is that the U.S. wants to tax everything no matter where it's earned (major corporations excepted).* Going to Ireland* in Sept, and people I've corresponded with who live there seem to always mention the rain. Other than some rural areas of Scotland, the UK seems awfully expensive. That would be my SO's first choice. My SO is already an expat, and a linguist, so changing cultures doesn't bother her very much.


*Southern Ireland* has a decent tax regime for authors if you qualify under their Artist's exemption scheme. Advance royalties are exempt from tax also. Not sure that you can get around US tax though unless as you say you can set up a LTD company or something. Try searching tax treaty for the country and see if that helps.

They more or less closed the loophole of renouncing citizenship in favor of another by introducing costs only millionaires can afford.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax/artists_exemption_from_income_tax.html


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Kay Bratt said:


> Unfortunately, I've been back to the USA a decade and have no way to use the skills I learned, so I'm sure I've lost massive Mandarin vocabulary by now. I look back and still can't believe I overcame all that I did in China, including the difficult language. It sort of feels like a dream.


Sadly, you use it or you lose it. I was once coming along toward fluency in French, and now I'm back to the awkward stage of fumbling through conversations, on the rare occasions when I have them. Remembering what you _had_ makes you reluctant, which in turn leads to more loss of fluency.

I have a small Youtube channel in Spanish for English language learners, mostly motivational stuff, and it's hard for me to follow my own advice, which is that the number one thing holding many people back is fear of making mistakes. Natives don't really care. In my experience, a few words or phrases gets you compliments.


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## Travelian (Jun 1, 2017)

Perry Constantine said:


> Does anyone know if the foreign earned income exclusion applies to book royalties? Some people said it does, other people said it doesn't, and I've also heard that if you paid taxes on those earnings in a foreign country, the US won't double-tax you. Basically I've heard so many different things and am not in a place where I'm ready to consult a tax expert on this, but I'm wondering if anyone has and if they've gotten a straight answer.
> 
> Alternatively, couldn't you set up an LLC or something in the country where you live and hire yourself as an employee? Because then you would be getting paid by a foreign company and it would qualify for the FEIE.


I'm sure the best answer to your question is "ask an accountant" so don't quote me.

But my understanding is the FEIE is related to income tax which applies to all personal income. And royalties count as income. An LLC applies to corporate or self employment taxes. Which is taken off the top.

The FEIE has no bearing on an LLC itself. Only the income that you receive. Whether it be salary from an LLC or net income from royalties without any corporate structure in place.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Travelian said:


> I'm sure the best answer to your question is "ask an accountant" so don't quote me.
> 
> But my understanding is the FEIE is related to income tax which applies to all personal income. And royalties count as income. An LLC applies to corporate or self employment taxes. Which is taken off the top.
> 
> The FEIE has no bearing on an LLC itself. Only the income that you receive. Whether it be salary from an LLC or net income from royalties without any corporate structure in place.


So the FEIE applies to _any_ income earned while abroad, so long as you meet either the bona fide residency or the physical presence qualification?


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

The website of any U.S. embassy has a section on taxes and the tax relationship between the U.S. and that country. It may take an accountant to understand it, but it's there.


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## Travelian (Jun 1, 2017)

Perry Constantine said:


> So the FEIE applies to _any_ income earned while abroad, so long as you meet either the bona fide residency or the physical presence qualification?


From what I understand FEIE just reduces taxable income by up to $100K per person. Also per Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion :

The exclusion is limited to income earned by a taxpayer for performance of services outside the U.S. This includes salary, bonus, and self-employment income. Where income relates to services both in the U.S. and outside the U.S., the income must be apportioned.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Travelian said:


> From what I understand FEIE just reduces taxable income by up to $100K per person. Also per Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion :
> 
> The exclusion is limited to income earned by a taxpayer for performance of services outside the U.S. This includes salary, bonus, and self-employment income. Where income relates to services both in the U.S. and outside the U.S., the income must be apportioned.


Thanks, that helps clear it up.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

This appears to apply to an author living abroad:
Self-employment income: A qualifying individual may claim the foreign earned income exclusion on foreign earned self-employment income.  The excluded amount will reduce the individual’s regular income tax, but will not reduce the individual’s self-employment tax.  Also, the foreign housing deduction – instead of a foreign housing exclusion – may be claimed.

The question then becomes how much tax do you owe to the country where you live.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

MonkishScribe said:


> I'm a language nerd, so I'm curious about those who can say they're fluent in another language after having lived abroad. How long did it take you to reach fluency, and what methods did you use. For a native English speaker, just living abroad isn't enough, of course, especially if you are living in a country where English knowledge is widespread, like most countries in Western Europe.


I speak basic Chinese after living in Taiwan nearly six years, which means I can get by in most everyday situations. One myth about learning another language that I debunked was _just go out and talk to people_. Nah. All that happens is you say your Chinese sentence, the other person replies and you don't understand what they said. End of conversation and embarrassing and stressful after many attempts. The thing that worked for me was learning enough words to have a very simple conversation, then doing language exchanges with friends. Only other people who are also learning a language have the patience to wait for you to remember the words you need. We have one hour of English only then one hour of Chinese only at the next session. At some point along the line, I overcame my stress when speaking Chinese and gradually built up a vocabulary of useful words. In case anyone's interested, Chinese isn't a difficult language to speak (reading and writing are hard). The difficulty comes from the fact that it's very different from English.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Abderian said:


> I speak basic Chinese after living in Taiwan nearly six years, which means I can get by in most everyday situations. One myth about learning another language that I debunked was _just go out and talk to people_. Nah. All that happens is you say your Chinese sentence, the other person replies and you don't understand what they said. End of conversation and embarrassing and stressful after many attempts.


A friend of mine took his degree in Russian. Upon graduation, he went to Russia. Couldn't hold a conversation. Enrolled in a nine-month immersion program in Siberia, then came back to Moscow and got a job.

What most people consider fluent falls apart on first contact with a native speaker who doesn't speak English. If you've never learned another language, you don't understand how difficult it is. But I've found in most countries that people will respect that you're trying and they will help you out. Note I said "most countries". In languages as complex as Russian and Chinese, what you studied in school may come out as gibberish to a native speaker.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Abderian said:


> I speak basic Chinese after living in Taiwan nearly six years, which means I can get by in most everyday situations. One myth about learning another language that I debunked was _just go out and talk to people_. Nah. All that happens is you say your Chinese sentence, the other person replies and you don't understand what they said. End of conversation and embarrassing and stressful after many attempts. The thing that worked for me was learning enough words to have a very simple conversation, then doing language exchanges with friends. Only other people who are also learning a language have the patience to wait for you to remember the words you need. We have one hour of English only then one hour of Chinese only at the next session. At some point along the line, I overcame my stress when speaking Chinese and gradually built up a vocabulary of useful words. In case anyone's interested, Chinese isn't a difficult language to speak (reading and writing are hard). The difficulty comes from the fact that it's very different from English.


This was my experience with Japanese as well. The value of immersion and going out and using the language can't be understated, but you also have to study to begin with if you want to do better than just the most basic of smalltalk.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

brkingsolver said:


> A friend of mine took his degree in Russian. Upon graduation, he went to Russia. Couldn't hold a conversation. Enrolled in a nine-month immersion program in Siberia, then came back to Moscow and got a job.
> 
> What most people consider fluent falls apart on first contact with a native speaker who doesn't speak English. If you've never learned another language, you don't understand how difficult it is. But I've found in most countries that people will respect that you're trying and they will help you out. Note I said "most countries". In languages as complex as Russian and Chinese, what you studied in school may come out as gibberish to a native speaker.


Yep, passing a language course doesn't guarantee you'll understand a native speaker in a real life context. I used to teach English and I've come across non-native English teachers and people with degrees in English who can't hold a basic conversation. Accents, dialects, slang, speed all get in the way. And you're right that what people are taught someimes bears little resemblance to the language as it's used. I have one friend who'll tell me the 'proper' way to say something and another friend who tells me what people actually say, haha.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

Perry Constantine said:


> This was my experience with Japanese as well. The value of immersion and going out and using the language can't be understated, but you also have to study to begin with if you want to do better than just the most basic of smalltalk.


Japanese is another tough one with the different dialects according to your sex, age and status. Chinese is easier in that respect.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I studied Japanese for quite a few years but found most stuff I studied beyond the basic level was pretty useless. Maybe that was just the style of teaching but little of what I learnt was ever reinforced after the lesson was over and it became just piling on of grammar. My Japanese school wouldn't admit it but I think their primary aim was getting students to pass language tests rather than being functional in Japanese.

When I taught English I had a Korean student who'd learnt a few languages and he told me that he just memorised a few basic sentence structures then put all his effort into learning vocabulary then getting a private one-on-one teacher to practice with. That seemed like a much more practical approach.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

oakwood said:


> Kids learn languages very quickly if they are inserted into the environment. They do this because they don't automatically choose the simple path of hoping the other person speaks english. They stick to native language and try to do it and mimic because they don't want to appear different from the native speaker. Do as kids. Only use your english in a foreign environment in an emergency.


That's not really true. Kids have some advantages in learning, but if you think about it, a child is essentially mute for 2-3 years in an environment of total immersion. A kid can learn over the course of a school year if brought to the U.S. at 5 or 6, but again, they are in an immersive environment. You'd learn quickly too, in that sort of situation.

As far as Spanish goes, the huge overlap of vocabulary means that it gets easier to learn the more advanced your studies. Getting through the initial grammar is a bear, and a lot of simple words have no equivalent in English, but the advanced stuff is almost all Latin based, and related to English. What's hard in the early stages is that it's spoken so fast, and initially sounds like one long, machine-gunned word. I always felt like my mind was just a step or two behind, and if two natives were speaking, forget it.

But, again, it's just a question of contact with the language. More hours in contact, speaking, writing, reading, and listening will always help.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

oakwood said:


> Also.. sharpen your sense of listening. Try to mimic how the natives pronounce the words without inflecting your own language's pronounciation. Americans are often at fault here, speaking spanish with american intonation when they could probably learn to speak it cleanly by listing more and focusing on the native intonation.


I don't know why, but some people simply cannot do this. In some cases, it seems like they feel funny, like it's putting on a fake British accent or something, but in others, they just can't hear the differences, can't roll their Rs, etc. I've met people who can hold a good conversation, but their accent still sounds like they're stuck in the "YO keeyero unuh servessa" stage.

If you've got a good ear, you can have the opposite problem. You're still in the early stages, but because you can reproduce the sounds, people start talking to you at a rapid clip, thinking you're more fluent than you are.


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## Felix R. Savage (Mar 3, 2011)

MonkishScribe said:


> I'm a language nerd, so I'm curious about those who can say they're fluent in another language after having lived abroad. How long did it take you to reach fluency, and what methods did you use. For a native English speaker, just living abroad isn't enough, of course, especially if you are living in a country where English knowledge is widespread, like most countries in Western Europe.


Speaking for myself, I hit the books. Studied hard enough to get the top Japanese language certification offered by the government here (NOT that difficult, just a whole lot of memorization), then got a job at a Japanese corporation and then my understanding really took off due to daily immersion. The whole process took 4 years. Oh yeah I am married to a local too. I think you will find that many if not most fluent expats are married to a native speaker


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

oakwood said:


> Kids learn languages very quickly if they are inserted into the environment. They do this because they don't automatically choose the simple path of hoping the other person speaks english. They stick to native language and try to do it and mimic because they don't want to appear different from the native speaker. Do as kids. Only use your english in a foreign environment in an emergency.


Kids learn languages quickly because they learn differently from adults. Their brains are different from ours, that's why if they learn the new language when they're young, they also pick up the accent and sound the same as a native speaker. An adult can speak a second language for decades and still speak it with their original accent if they learned the second language as an adult. Kids don't have a learning strategy. It just happens naturally without effort if the child is young enough. My son came here aged eight and now his Chinese is indistinguishable from a Taiwanese speaker. He didn't consciously learn it. He has no memory of learning it.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

The first time I tried learning Portuguese was from a book. That was next to useless as no one understood me when I went on holiday, because the pronunciation and intonation was all wrong.

The only way to get the pronunciation right is to listen and repeat. 

I bought quite a few CD tutorials before I moved to Brazil full time. I think it was the Rosseta Stone's one that was the best, but there are many for different languages.  Whichever, what you can do is to listen to the word or phrase in increasing levels of comlplexity, then you record your voice saying an individual word or phrase and you are graded on the match, and it shows a sort of voice graph to get the intonation right.

An example of an easy pronounced phrase would be a greeting such as 'Tudo bom' and the reply of 'Tudo bem', both of which translates as "all good" However say it how it looks and it won't sound right. The "O" in tudo is a sort of "U" sound. The bom is said in a rising tone, and the bem is said in a downard tone for you to sound like a native speaker.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Decon said:


> I bought quite a few CD tutorials before I moved to Brazil full time. I think it was the Rosseta Stone's one that was the best, but there are many for different languages. Whichever, what you can do is to listen to the word or phrase in increasing levels of comlexity, then you record your voice saying an individual word or phrase and you are graded on the match, and it shows a sort of voice graph to get the intonation right.


I always advise people away from Rosetta Stone. It seems way too overpriced and overhyped. I liked Learn in Your Car. Super cheap, but you do have to listen again and again, and there's zero explanation of the grammar; you just have to intuit it. This is how I started with French, and it really helped with the accent. I already knew a Romance language, though, so I didn't have grammar issues. When I started on LIYC Russian, the grammar stuff was baffling.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Abderian said:


> Kids learn languages quickly because they learn differently from adults. Their brains are different from ours, that's why if they learn the new language when they're young, they also pick up the accent and sound the same as a native speaker. An adult can speak a second language for decades and still speak it with their original accent if they learned the second language as an adult. Kids don't have a learning strategy. It just happens naturally without effort if the child is young enough. My son came here aged eight and now his Chinese is indistinguishable from a Taiwanese speaker. He didn't consciously learn it. He has no memory of learning it.


I think this is absolutely true. It's only the assertion of it being faster that I take issue with. A kid still needs umpteen hours of contact with the language. In addition, adults have some advantages over kids. One is patience and motivation. It's really, really hard to teach a kid _outside_ of an immersion environment. Another advantage they have is the ability to make connections between words in their native language and their target language.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

In regards to taxes, my long term goal is to renounce citizenship.

I don't want to live in the states, nor do I want to fund American's penchant for war-military-prison spending, so it's a no-brainer for me.

From what I've been told it's possible to have a tax rate of about 5% here in Mexico, with maybe 15% being the maximum if you don't do things to cut your taxes.  I'm only going off of what I've received from others, but I trust the sources.

In essence, by becoming a Mexican citizen, if I follow the basic 20to50K type plan (ie write some series, get 20-30 books out there) and make 50,000 a year, I'll be super wealthy here.  I could live here okay on $12,000 a year--I mean get by...nothing fancy.

At $50,000 a year in Mexico, even with 10% in tax, you're netting $45,000 which is enough to live very well here.

In the states that same $50,000 is taxed down to at least $35,000, and that doesn't count all the hidden taxes and inflation, etc....

From a cost/benefit viewpoint, the move makes a lot of sense....

Now I just have to get the books....my latest disaster is going to set me back some months (need to take a "real" job again for at least a month....)

I swear, just when you think you have this game sort of figured out, something changes or surprises you or disappoints you....

It's like being 14 and in love then going through a break up.

"But, Daddy, I love him," she cried.
"You're only fifteen, you'll recover," he tells her.
"You don't understand."  Cry-sniff-cry....


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

JaydenHunter said:


> In regards to taxes, my long term goal is to renounce citizenship.
> 
> I don't want to live in the states, nor do I want to fund American's penchant for war-military-prison spending, so it's a no-brainer for me.
> 
> ...


Good luck to you. I'd be wary of the violence, especially after what I've seen in Brazil, and by all accounts Mexico is worse.

https://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/relinquishing-citizenship/renunciating-your-us-passport/misconceptions-about-renunciation-of-a-us-passport/


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

JaydenHunter said:


> In regards to taxes, my long term goal is to renounce citizenship.
> 
> I don't want to live in the states, nor do I want to fund American's penchant for war-military-prison spending, so it's a no-brainer for me.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you know this, but for anyone else who might be thinking of doing this, it's worth noting that to avoid the possibility of any tax liability to the US, you'd have to renounce your US citizenship. There is the FEIE, but if you're going to be making six figures a year and don't want to pay taxes to the US on that, then renunciation would be a necessity. I don't know all the details, but I've heard it can be a costly and difficult process.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Abderian said:


> Kids learn languages quickly because they learn differently from adults. Their brains are different from ours, that's why if they learn the new language when they're young, they also pick up the accent and sound the same as a native speaker. An adult can speak a second language for decades and still speak it with their original accent if they learned the second language as an adult. Kids don't have a learning strategy. It just happens naturally without effort if the child is young enough. My son came here aged eight and now his Chinese is indistinguishable from a Taiwanese speaker. He didn't consciously learn it. He has no memory of learning it.





MonkishScribe said:


> I think this is absolutely true. It's only the assertion of it being faster that I take issue with. A kid still needs umpteen hours of contact with the language. In addition, adults have some advantages over kids. One is patience and motivation. It's really, really hard to teach a kid _outside_ of an immersion environment. Another advantage they have is the ability to make connections between words in their native language and their target language.


I think it's true, but less so than people often think. Adult brains at any age are proving to be far more plastic than they were once believed to be. I started learning Czech at the age of almost 29 and took the attitude that I wanted to speak so that people could not easily recognize me as a foreigner. I had the advantage of having a good ear, but I also tried as much as possible to be completely open to the process, being as patient as I could with the fact that in many ways I had to put up with returning to small-child status and not being able to easily communicate on any very sophisticated topic.

I succeeded to an extent many people would find unbelievable. Of course this was partly due to expectations- at the time I first went, in 1985, very few Czech-speaking foreigners visited and those that did were almost all from slavic-speaking countries. In addition, there are a number of regional accents, as well as Slovak, that have different grammar, so it was easy for people to suppose any mistakes I made meant I was from another region.

After I moved here in 1990, and particular after my marriage in 1993 I was in an almost entirely Czech-speaking environment for some years and I got to a point where I really didn't feel limited in what I could talk about and I could watch television, read newspapers and books, or take part in fast, joking conversation with native speakers without any struggle. After eight years back in the US and now, being in a mostly English speaking environment all day I've lost a lot of fluency. It's irritating to hear myself make mistakes and to have to limit my conversation again, but I'm too lazy and enjoying myself on other fronts to be willing to spend the time and energy to bring myself up to my previous level. Instead I'm trying to revive my long-dead high school French so I can do some research for my books.

The main thing I think about achieving fluency, particularly in a language with a quite different structure than English, is that it's extremely individual. The only real commonality among those who learn to speak with what could be called fluency is just how much work it takes and how exhausting it can be. The end result and the new worlds it opens up to you are absolutely exhilarating but I know at my age and knowing what I know now I'd hesitate before taking on another language very different from English or Czech. It's always tempting though... Now I'm thinking about Arabic!


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

MonkishScribe said:


> If you've got a good ear, you can have the opposite problem. You're still in the early stages, but because you can reproduce the sounds, people start talking to you at a rapid clip, thinking you're more fluent than you are.


Woman speaks to me in Russian. I say "Ya ne ponemayu" or "I don't understand". She repeats herself louder. I say, "Ya ne gavaru pa Ruski" or "I don't speak Russian". Those are two phrases I have down pat. She doesn't believe me because I say them so well. Translator steps in finally.

Funny incident in Moscow. A man stops my companion and I on the street. He has a map and tries to ask us for directions in halting Russian. My companion makes a side remark to me in English. In a rush of relief, he asks in English if we speak English, then repeats his question. He has a German accent. My companion answers him in German. Long conversation in German and he thanks her profusely.

I was at a dinner in Romania where multiple languages were going around the table. My companion spoke Romanian, Italian and English. One of the other people spoke German, Italian, and French, I spoke Spanish and English, another person spoke Romanian, Italian and Spanish, etc., etc.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

MonkishScribe said:


> I don't know why, but some people simply cannot do this. In some cases, it seems like they feel funny, like it's putting on a fake British accent or something, but in others, they just can't hear the differences, can't roll their Rs, etc. I've met people who can hold a good conversation, but their accent still sounds like they're stuck in the "YO keeyero unuh servessa" stage.
> 
> If you've got a good ear, you can have the opposite problem. You're still in the early stages, but because you can reproduce the sounds, people start talking to you at a rapid clip, thinking you're more fluent than you are.





brkingsolver said:


> Woman speaks to me in Russian. I say "Ya ne ponemayu" or "I don't understand". She repeats herself louder. I say, "Ya ne gavaru pa Ruski" or "I don't speak Russian". Those are two phrases I have down pat. She doesn't believe me because I say them so well. Translator steps in finally.


Most of us in my family have the good ear 'problem'. My father had both an excellent ear and no self-consciousness whatsoever about speaking. When he was at a university in Quebec he was required to deliver some of his lectures in French. Then they'd come up afterwards to talk to him and think he was joking when he said he wasn't French.

I had the same problem of people talking to me at high speed on my first visit to Czechoslovakia. I was proud that I'd managed such a good accent, of course, but also a little incredulous- I can always hear a little trace accent, often even for people who moved to the US in their early teens. I can't count the number of people who stop me on the streets for directions and then tell me how good my English is, though, so it's clear that lots of people really _don't_ hear these things. Also, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to distinguish a slight foreign accent so easily for someone with a good British or Australian accent.

One thing I learned, though, is not to stop people or tell them you're not a native speaker if you want to learn a language well. For one thing, your ear starts to attune pretty quickly to the speed. It's frustrating, because you feel like your in a sort of delay loop- the words finally come together and make sense just a second or two after you say, "What was that?" but in many countries, people will clam up if they think you can't understand. They'll start gesturing and using the two words of English they know- even after a long conversation in their own language. They just can't get past the expectation that they're not going to be able to communicate with a foreigner.

In fact, that's probably one of the main differences between kid and adult learning- adults are operating much more on habit and expectation. Their ideas of who people are and what to expect are much more fixed. If you can stay open yourself and avoid triggering their expectations learning is much easier and faster.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Perry Constantine said:


> I'm sure you know this, but for anyone else who might be thinking of doing this, it's worth noting that to avoid the possibility of any tax liability to the US, you'd have to renounce your US citizenship. There is the FEIE, but if you're going to be making six figures a year and don't want to pay taxes to the US on that, then renunciation would be a necessity. I don't know all the details, but I've heard it can be a costly and difficult process.


They raised the price recently to $2600 in an effort to keep the tax livestock from leaving the farm.

But I've talked to someone who did the process and it's not difficult. You pay the money, fill out the forms, and do an "exit" interview.

I think if you're wealthy, it's harder, because they don't want you to take your money out of the country so easy, so if you have a lot of assets, you might be forced to pay some kind of tax to get your citizenship revoked...You cannot do this to avoid taxes that you already owe.

In my case, I'm a broke writer. I own nothing worth anything except my MacBook Pro (well, perhaps there is some value to my growing backlist...lol).

It will probably take me a couple of years, I'm going to imagine...maybe not, but I'll update Kboards as time goes on in case people are interested in the process etc., etc.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

JaydenHunter said:


> They raised the price recently to $2600 in an effort to keep the tax livestock from leaving the farm.
> 
> But I've talked to someone who did the process and it's not difficult. You pay the money, fill out the forms, and do an "exit" interview.
> 
> ...


If you want to travel or live elsewhere be sure to check out how easy it is for Mexican citizens to get visas to other countries. Having watched people even with valid visas get turned away at borders and having listened to complaints from travelers and expats from dozens of countries over the years I'd want to make sure I wasn't severely limiting the places I could go. Talk to Mexican citizens who don't have dual citizenship and have traveled widely. You can use this site https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php to get an idea, but that won't tell the whole story. Even when a visa isn't required you may find yourself being questioned a lot more by immigration and have to have more documentation getting into other countries. The difficulty non-citizens even from Europe have getting in to the US is one of the reasons I always refused to give up US citizenship when that was required in order to get Czech citizenship. As long as I have family in the US I want to be able to visit them without any problem.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Decon said:


> Good luck to you. I'd be wary of the violence, especially after what I've seen in Brazil, and by all accounts Mexico is worse.


Totally depends on the part of Mexico. I wouldn't want to live in certain areas of Chicago or Detroit, either. My bigger concern with Mexico would be that it would be hard to travel to the U.S. once you renounced. Better would be a country like Chile where you don't need a visa.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Sarah Shaw said:


> The difficulty non-citizens even from Europe have getting in to the US is one of the reasons I always refused to give up US citizenship when that was required in order to get Czech citizenship. As long as I have family in the US I want to be able to visit them without any problem.


I'm the same way. I'm planning to go back to Japan next year and will probably stay there indefinitely, but I like having the option to return to the US if I have to. Even if I never move back, I still want to be able to easily visit my family and be able to go to conferences in the States. There aren't enough benefits to Japanese citizenship worth renouncing US citizenship. Besides, I doubt I'd ever make enough to exceed the FEIE and even if I do, the foreign tax credits should be sufficient to avoid double-taxation.

Now if Japan amends their law and allows for dual citizenship, then obtaining Japanese citizenship might be a worthwhile endeavor.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

JaydenHunter said:


> Lots of places have good health care, some better than others. Here in Mexico, from what I've heard, basic health care is cheap and the doctors are good. I've talked to a few people that told me that many Americans come to GDL for medical school, but that's just third hand, so I can't verify it.
> 
> What I can mention is the blog somewhere in here that someone posted RE: Russell Blake's musing on Mexico. I think he talks about medical stuff in that blog. Basically you don't need insurance here, you just pay for your doctor and hospital visits as they are very affordable.
> 
> ...


That's actually very reassuring. I've heard that healthcare in Mexico is super inexpensive. I've been joking that if I lose my health insurance, I'll be smuggling my Plaquenil out of Mexico... I love my country but it's looking less and less like a good place for me. I think what I love most about being a writer is that my job doesn't tether me to one place. I can go out of state or out of the country and still work. My husband's company isn't international, though, so that complicates things a bit.

Still, I'm loving how encouraging this thread is! It's great to see everyone's success stories.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

MonkishScribe said:


> Totally depends on the part of Mexico. I wouldn't want to live in certain areas of Chicago or Detroit, either. My bigger concern with Mexico would be that it would be hard to travel to the U.S. once you renounced. Better would be a country like Chile where you don't need a visa.


Trust me...I begged my ex-wife many times to return to Santiago. She won't leave the US, but if she'd been willing to leave her (redacted curse words, about 20 of them) husband I'd have gone to Chile with her, not to get back together, but I thought it would have been a good experience for our daughter.

As for traveling with a Mexican Passport, my understanding is that if you have money, etc., it's not a big deal. The places I would like to go aren't going to be an issue, I don't think...if they are...oh well... I'll go elsewhere, I won't live long enough to explore the whole world anyway.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

JaydenHunter said:


> Trust me...I begged my ex-wife many times to return to Santiago. She won't leave the US, but if she'd been willing to leave her (redacted curse words, about 20 of them) husband I'd have gone to Chile with her, not to get back together, but I thought it would have been a good experience for our daughter.


I share a lot of feelings you state above. There was a time in my life when the thought of renouncing my citizenship would have been only slightly less horrifying than amputating my arm, but I'm in despair over what we've become.

Being a fluent Spanish speaker with some savings, Latin America looks pretty good to me.

_Edited. Political discussions are not allowed here, sorry. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

elizabethbarone said:


> That's actually very reassuring. I've heard that healthcare in Mexico is super inexpensive. I've been joking that if I lose my health insurance, I'll be smuggling my Plaquenil out of Mexico... I love my country but it's looking less and less like a good place for me. I think what I love most about being a writer is that my job doesn't tether me to one place. I can go out of state or out of the country and still work. My husband's company isn't international, though, so that complicates things a bit.
> 
> Still, I'm loving how encouraging this thread is! It's great to see everyone's success stories.


I grew up in New Mexico, and my parents retired in the southern part of the state. Many retirees cross the border for their healthcare, and especially for medications and dental work. Cheaper to go to Mexico and pay full price than pay the deductibles and copays with Medicare here in the States.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

Perry Constantine said:


> Now if Japan amends their law and allows for dual citizenship, then obtaining Japanese citizenship might be a worthwhile endeavor.


We have the same problem. If you're a foreign national and you want to become a Taiwanese citizen, you have to give up your foreign citizenship. The same rule doesn't apply to Taiwanese and many of them have US citizenship. Grrr.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

People are finding this thread very useful, so I want it to stay open.  Posts that stray into politics may be edited or deleted.  Let's keep it to the logistics of being an expat and how it might help in one's writing career.

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Felix R. Savage (Mar 3, 2011)

Perry Constantine said:


> Now if Japan amends their law and allows for dual citizenship, then obtaining Japanese citizenship might be a worthwhile endeavor.


I believe they will. There is widespread resistance to the current system which forces binational children to choose at the age of 20. My daughter recently found out that she would one day have to choose if she wants to be Japanese or American. It horrified her to think she couldn't go on being both. So unfair!! Her identity simply *is* both. It's cruel to force the choice. I have seen some understanding of this in officialdom, so I do think the system will change in the next decade or so. That said I would not see the point of obtaining dual citizenship for myself. What would be the benefit? I'd still have to pay US taxes.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Felix R. Savage said:


> I believe they will. There is widespread resistance to the current system which forces binational children to choose at the age of 20. My daughter recently found out that she would one day have to choose if she wants to be Japanese or American. It horrified her to think she couldn't go on being both. So unfair!! Her identity simply *is* both. It's cruel to force the choice. I have seen some understanding of this in officialdom, so I do think the system will change in the next decade or so. That said I would not see the point of obtaining dual citizenship for myself. What would be the benefit? I'd still have to pay US taxes.


Like I said, it might be worthwhile. I'd have to do more research on the subject. But if dual citizenship were on the table, it's something I would at least look into, even if the only benefit is being able to vote.

In regards to the current system, your daughter can take some solace in the fact that there are estimates as high as 700,000 dual citizens who don't actually make that choice because it's a difficult process to go through and no dual citizen has been punished for violating the Nationality Law: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2016/09/14/issues/japans-dual-citizens-get-tacit-nod-keep-status-shadows/


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

I'm looking forward to getting dual citizenship now that the Czech Republic has changed its law. The practical advantage is citizenship in an EU country, which makes it possible for me to live and work in any other EU country and also it's easier to get in to some countries that the US has a fraught relationship with. But the main reason is a sense of obligation: I've been living and working in this country for half my adult life, taking advantage of its excellent public health and transportation systems, enjoying its beauty and culture. I want to participate as a full member of society, not just as a guest.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

There is a definite difference between these two goals:

A.  Being a traveling writer (or other online entrepreneur) who is intent on visiting lots of places and incorporates the lifestyle of being a vagabond with a writing career.  It's certainly possible to do, and I know many people find this rewarding.

B.  Being a full-time indie writer as a primary goal, and using lower cost of living in a third world country to accomplish this.

I happen to fall into the "B" category (and along with my political-social-etc. reasons) so ease of travel in the future isn't a big consideration for me when it comes to renouncing US citizenship and maintaining just one passport.

Primary goal for me:  Independent writer who makes enough money from writing books to live comfortably.

Secondary goals (many of which stem for the first):  Happiness, love, a relationship---a wife---maybe..., a little house with a yard, maybe a dog and some chickens....well, I might even get a goat.

Sure, traveling sounds fun, but if I have a stable life with good relationships and I'm supporting myself with my books, I'd gladly trade that for some possible travel issues in the future.

What's important to remember, if working as a writer full time is a primary goal, is that becoming a single citizen of Mexico (for instance) means that your earnings nearly double just from the tax savings, and your buying power is anywhere for +50% to +200% depending on what we're talking about.

Those are some pretty strong incentives for me.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

JaydenHunter said:


> I happen to fall into the "B" category (and along with my political-social-etc. reasons) so ease of travel in the future isn't a big consideration for me when it comes to renouncing US citizenship and maintaining just one passport.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Sure, traveling sounds fun, but if I have a stable life with good relationships and I'm supporting myself with my books, I'd gladly trade that for some possible travel issues in the future.


I don't know how old you are, but remember, goals can change, sometimes drastically. If you're young, think of 30 years down the road. Mexico is just as likely to slip into chaos as anywhere else, and it could be really challenging to get out with just a Mexican passport.

I'm saying this as someone who speaks Spanish fluently, loves Mexico, and have been there fifteen or twenty times over the years. Argentina and Chile aren't quite as cheap, but it's easier to travel from there. If cost is super important, Ecuador has some of the same passport issues as Mexico, but is even cheaper and is a truly wonderful place to live.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

MonkishScribe said:


> I don't know how old you are, but remember, goals can change, sometimes drastically. If you're young, think of 30 years down the road. Mexico is just as likely to slip into chaos as anywhere else, and it could be really challenging to get out with just a Mexican passport.
> 
> I'm saying this as someone who speaks Spanish fluently, loves Mexico, and have been there fifteen or twenty times over the years. Argentina and Chile aren't quite as cheap, but it's easier to travel from there. If cost is super important, Ecuador has some of the same passport issues as Mexico, but is even cheaper and is a truly wonderful place to live.


I'm old, so that's not so much of an issue.

I would like to visit other places, Ecuador and Colombia come to mind. I have some time to figure this out as I can't renounce without being a citizen of somewhere else...well, I could, but then it would be really hard to travel....

Does Ecuador have some cities similar to the Guadalajara (being that they are cheap, but still have a variety of bars, restaurants, concerts, clubs, etc.)?

I do like that Mexico is close to the states in that I have family to visit. Chile just seems so far.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

JaydenHunter said:


> I would like to visit other places, Ecuador and Colombia come to mind. I have some time to figure this out as I can't renounce without being a citizen of somewhere else...well, I could, but then it would be really hard to travel....


I've spent about 4-5 months in Cuenca and love it. Beautiful town, good food, great climate. A lot of people like Quito, too, but it's a little high in altitude and a little too big for me.


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## Travelian (Jun 1, 2017)

JaydenHunter said:


> From what I've been told it's possible to have a tax rate of about 5% here in Mexico, with maybe 15% being the maximum if you don't do things to cut your taxes. I'm only going off of what I've received from others, but I trust the sources.


For people reading who may be looking at Mexican citizenship, I just want to point out the tax rates above may not be accurate. According to the link below Mexican income tax rates are actually higher for incomes between $16K and $233K.
https://yucalandia.com/living-in-yucatan-mexico/comparing-tax-rates-and-tax-policies-for-us-earned-income-and-mexican-earned-income/

Now from my understanding there are ways to lower your tax burden in Mexico such as: 1) Keep your US citizenship and use the FEIE 2) Make your money in the stock market because Mexico has a 0% capital gains tax rate.

But if you become a Mexican citizen and live on writer's royalties, it doesn't look like you'll save in taxes. But you will still benefit from the lower cost of living.

Unless you're wealthy, own a business or bank in a foreign country, there are ways you can actually save money - as a foreign resident. Because many countries like Panama or Ecuador do not tax or only tax minimally foreign residents whose income comes from foreign sources like a 401K. Which is why people are retiring in those countries.

Now I'm not an international tax expert - I'm not claiming my answers to be the definitive truth. But I think the bigger takeaway if you plan to live abroad long-term is to talk to someone who is an expert. You want to be absolutely sure of the tax consequences regarding citizenship and deductions. And the optimal way to save from paying taxes.


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## Jake Decker (Jul 27, 2012)

Super cool thread. I've been dreaming of doing this for years and have been working hard to make it a reality. I have no debt and have been banking money for a sufficient runway so I can write full time. Right now, and depending on the country/COL, I can probably write for over a year and by then hopefully be making enough for living costs and not have to touch savings. 

With my wife also making some money as a web designer, we can probably travel indefinitely, but I think having a base is important and helps avoid burnout. We'll probably end up in her native Japan (Tokyo) but we'll be going to Chiapas Mexico (San Cristobal) this winter which will be a scouting trip for us. I really want to do Europe but the 90 day Schengen visa limit will put a damper on long term living there.


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## ShaneCarrow (Jul 26, 2017)

JaydenHunter said:


> I happen to fall into the "B" category (and along with my political-social-etc. reasons) so ease of travel in the future isn't a big consideration for me when it comes to renouncing US citizenship and maintaining just one passport.


Forgive me if you've addressed this - I looked but couldn't see it - but are you already a dual citizen through parentage or something? If not what is your intended path to Mexican residency/citizenship, and what visa are you on now?


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Brian Tormanen said:


> Super cool thread. I've been dreaming of doing this for years and have been working hard to make it a reality. I have no debt and have been banking money for a sufficient runway so I can write full time. Right now, and depending on the country/COL, I can probably write for over a year and by then hopefully be making enough for living costs and not have to touch savings.
> 
> With my wife also making some money as a web designer, we can probably travel indefinitely, but I think having a base is important and helps avoid burnout. We'll probably end up in her native Japan (Tokyo) but we'll be going to Chiapas Mexico (San Cristobal) this winter which will be a scouting trip for us. I really want to do Europe but the 90 day Schengen visa limit will put a damper on long term living there.


There are a few places where you can get around the 90 day thing. Germany has a self employed visa and Portugal allows visa extensions.


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

Be careful of your emergency healthcare.

It's great to go to a cheap doctor at your own initiative, when you're in control.

I don't know about Mexico or other countries, but in The Philippines, not only do they not care about US health insurance, they 
hospitals want their money NOW. Before they release you.

I'm very healthy overall, but suffered a sudden attack of kidney stones and a hernia. Both extremely painful. If I'd had them 
during a cash-poor time of the month, I don't know what I would have done.


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## Jake Decker (Jul 27, 2012)

kathrynoh said:


> There are a few places where you can get around the 90 day thing. Germany has a self employed visa and Portugal allows visa extensions.


Obrigado! We have friends in Munich and I believe Berlin is pretty cheap. I'd rather spend winters in Algarve, though.


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