# Can you get past the sexist language and enjoy the book?



## Carrie Rubin (Nov 19, 2012)

This probably applies to the women in the forum more (although not necessarily), but have you read a book you really like, but the sexist descriptions make you cringe? I'm currently reading Plum Island (John Corey) by Nelson DeMille. Great detective novel, but could the author really not think of better ways to describe the physical characteristics of the women than "looked like she was smuggling balloons under her bra" and "Nordic-track ass"? I'm no prude--I'm all for sexy dialogue, but gross. That'd be like a female author describing a man as "smuggling a cucumber in his pants." There must be better ways to create sexual tension than this. I appreciate the author trying to create a strong female character, but descriptions like that seem contradictory to his attempt. I suppose the same could be said for romance books that give every man six-pack abs, but I wouldn't know. I don't read those. 

This is kind of a tongue-in-cheek comment, because I do really like the book. But I wish every woman wasn't described by the sum of her parts in it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I think he was going for the 'hard boiled detective/noir' style. . . . . . . which is not a style I care for.  I never analyzed why, but that could be part of it.


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## Carrie Rubin (Nov 19, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I think he was going for the 'hard boiled detective/noir' style. . . . . . . which is not a style I care for. I never analyzed why, but that could be part of it.


Good point, although the theme and style is pretty contemporary. But maybe I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

No, I don't think so. I read a book by a KB author that I was really looking forward to, but the sexist language by one of the characters, who I don't think was really supposed to be that kind of character just got to me. I finished the book (I have a hard time not finishing books), but I haven't read any more by that author; even though I have another one of his books.

That being said, I've read books by Nelson DeMille and don't recall it being a problem. And if I thought it was just a character writen as sexist, I think I would be okay with that.

Betsy

Sent from Killashandra, 
my Kindle Fire 4G


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't usually notice sexist language in books unless it's pretty derogatory. Then, if the book is interesting enough, I may keep reading but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Doesn't sound so much sexist to me as just poorly written.


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## Carrie Rubin (Nov 19, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> And if I thought it was just a character writen as sexist, I think I would be okay with that.
> 
> Betsy


That's my hope. The detective has a good-sized ego and is a major smart aleck, so I'm hoping the author will have him 'grow' a bit in his attitude towards his female partner. If not, and that's just the way this author writes (though I think it was one of his earlier works), I'm not sure I'll read more of him. Too much other good stuff out there that doesn't make me roll my eyes.


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## Carrie Rubin (Nov 19, 2012)

history_lover said:


> Doesn't sound so much sexist to me as just poorly written.


Haha--that may very well be the case!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Carrie Rubin said:


> That's my hope. The detective has a good-sized ego and is a major smart aleck, so I'm hoping the author will have him 'grow' a bit in his attitude towards his female partner. If not, and that's just the way this author writes (though I think it was one of his earlier works), I'm not sure I'll read more of him. Too much other good stuff out there that doesn't make me roll my eyes.


In the book I read, also with a sexist detective, it seemed that was just going to be the character's personality, and ultimately I decided I didn't like the character enough to continue with the series. But perhaps I wasn't the author's target audience. 

Betsy


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## jliyon (Nov 14, 2012)

It will sometimes look crossing all limits..I agree


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## thedavebright (Sep 8, 2012)

I think there is a vast difference between sexist language used in a narrative style by the author to describe female characters and sexism pertaining to a character's viewpoint. A sexist character may be necessary to drive home a point or fulfill a role in the story. Sexism exists and can make a character fit the necessary mold. If a writer simply is sexist in their portrayal of women overall, I can see why that would be a hindrance to a reader and would understand many people not wanting to finish the book.


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## Carrie Rubin (Nov 19, 2012)

thedavebright said:


> I think there is a vast difference between sexist language used in a narrative style by the author to describe female characters and sexism pertaining to a character's viewpoint. A sexist character may be necessary to drive home a point or fulfill a role in the story. Sexism exists and can make a character fit the necessary mold. If a writer simply is sexist in their portrayal of women overall, I can see why that would be a hindrance to a reader and would understand many people not wanting to finish the book.


Agreed. Well said. I'll have to come back when I've finished the book to report which case this happens to be.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

thedavebright said:


> I think there is a vast difference between sexist language used in a narrative style by the author to describe female characters and sexism pertaining to a character's viewpoint. A sexist character may be necessary to drive home a point or fulfill a role in the story. Sexism exists and can make a character fit the necessary mold. If a writer simply is sexist in their portrayal of women overall, I can see why that would be a hindrance to a reader and would understand many people not wanting to finish the book.


I agree completely. But if a main character in a series is habitually sexist (or any other kind of "ist"), while it might be true to the character, it's not someone I'm going to want to root for consistently and so I likely won't read more in a series. I'll finish the book to see if there is any character growth, but that will probably be it. I typically finish books once I start them. (Except non-fiction; I tend to put them down and pick them up again at some future date and read in chunks.)

Betsy


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I agree completely. But if a main character in a series is habitually sexist (or any other kind of "ist"), while it might be true to the character, it's not someone I'm going to want to root for consistently and so I likely won't read more in a series. I'll finish the book to see if there is any character growth, but that will probably be it. I typically finish books once I start them. (Except non-fiction; I tend to put them down and pick them up again at some future date and read in chunks.)
> 
> Betsy


Agreed - a sexist character doesn't necessarily make the author sexist but if that character is supposed to be a protagonist, I probably won't retain interest unless it's done in a very comical way. Like the TV show "House" - a protagonist can be a jerk and still be likable but it has to be done well (usually with humor) and few writers can pull it off.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

history_lover said:


> Agreed - a sexist character doesn't necessarily make the author sexist but if that character is supposed to be a protagonist, I probably won't retain interest unless it's done in a very comical way. Like the TV show "House" - a protagonist can be a jerk and still be likable but it has to be done well (usually with humor) and few writers can pull it off.


Exactly. The reason House worked was because his character was very complex and the underlying layers made you realize that there was far more to him than his jerk-ness. Well-written, well-acted.

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Exactly. The reason House worked was because his character was very complex and the underlying layers made you realize that there was far more to him than his jerk-ness. Well-written, well-acted.
> 
> Betsy


I think there was also always the hope -- sometimes pretty faint -- that he might eventually _get_ that he was a jerk.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

history_lover said:


> Doesn't sound so much sexist to me as just poorly written.


I agree. When I read "looked like she was smuggling balloons under her bra" I think "What are you, eight years old?"

With the old hard-boiled detectives, they would use phrases like "She head legs that just wouldn't stop". It works - provided you don't think about it to hard. What, was someone expecting the legs to stop partway up? they have to connect to the torso sooner or later.


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## nikkarina (Jan 15, 2013)

I find this type of language just tacky. There is certainly a more classy way of describing a female's breasts.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

nikkarina said:


> I find this type of language just tacky. There is certainly a more classy way of describing a female's breasts.


Such as "two bags of sand", like in The 40 Year-Old Virgin.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

QuantumIguana said:


> Such as "two bags of sand", like in The 40 Year-Old Virgin.


Yes, that was a very classy movie.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

I'll be interested to see what you think of Plum Island when you're done. If it's the book I think it is, there's a lot more than the language before it's done. Please come back and say what you think when you finish.


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## Carrie Rubin (Nov 19, 2012)

ellenoc said:


> I'll be interested to see what you think of Plum Island when you're done. If it's the book I think it is, there's a lot more than the language before it's done. Please come back and say what you think when you finish.


I will. The book is pretty good so far. It's about a married couple found murdered--both work on an island housing a biological research center. It's just that I cringe every time the detective makes a vulgar reference to a woman's physical appearance, which is pretty much every woman he encounters.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Carrie Rubin said:


> I will. The book is pretty good so far. It's about a married couple found murdered--both work on an island housing a biological research center.


That's not the one I thought it was then.


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## kisala9906 (Sep 4, 2011)

For me anyway it very much depends on that book. If it is noir style for example it would seem off without it. If it fits the character to talk that way then it doesn't bother me at all. Even if it is set in recent years if it fits the character it doesn't bother me because some men talk like that I don't like it but then again some people in books you are meant to hate.  Cersei anyone from Game of Thrones for example. It none of those fit then yes it bugs me, if the overall story is still good I keep at it, if not then I stop reading it.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

Maybe he's just trying to parody old-time hard-boiled writers like Mickey Spillane. 

Is he wise to do so? That's the question.


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## kayandersensmith (Jan 4, 2013)

Carrie Rubin said:


> I'm no prude--I'm all for sexy dialogue, but gross. That'd be like a female author describing a man as "smuggling a cucumber in his pants."


I'm no prude either, but something about that sentence made me giggle uncontrollably. So, should we try and see how many authors would be willing to begin describing their menfolk as such?


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## Carrie Rubin (Nov 19, 2012)

kayandersensmith said:


> I'm no prude either, but something about that sentence made me giggle uncontrollably. So, should we try and see how many authors would be willing to begin describing their menfolk as such?


Sounds like a plan.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

It doesn't bother me.
But - I can't enjoy nor get caught up in a book that I find sexist. I _can_ step back and read it from the book from a distance and appreciate it as art or as a comment on the author/time period/locale.

I started reading Jack Kerouac's On The Road once and at the time wasn't in the mood for it - and yes, I did find it sexist. But I'll read it again another time now that I know what I'm heading in for.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

This kind of thing wouldn't bother me at all. 

First, I would just assume that was the way the character thought. I  really can't imagine getting offended over a fictional character's thoughts. 

Second, I thought the phrases were pretty funny. My guess is that the author intended that humor.

Third, I think I must be pretty weird. I have never found any character in a fiction novel that could "offend" me. Fictional characters are supposed to mirror real people. Real people consist of all types of personalities. Think of the absolute nastiest, most horrifying person you could possibly imagine, and somebody out there has similar traits. A character can gross me out, irritate me, or make me feel any number of emotions, but "offended" is simply not on that list.

There are sexist men in this world, many of which probably think exactly the types of thoughts this character has, although most likely not in such colorful language.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I generally don't enjoy those books and put them away. I have encountered enough sexist morons in my lifetime that I don't need them in my private entertainment space.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

It may be the way the character thinks, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be interested in reading a book about that character. It reminds me of Beavis and Butthead as hard-boiled detectives.

... you know, I think I might just read that book after all.


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## Carrie Rubin (Nov 19, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I generally don't enjoy those books and put them away. I have encountered enough sexist morons in my lifetime that I don't need them in my private entertainment space.


That's kind of my thinking. I want to like the protagonist, or at least care about him/her. I neither like nor care for this 'hero.' Of course, I'm halfway through the book now, and I want to see how it ends, but I won't read any more books with this character as the lead.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I generally don't enjoy those books and put them away. I have encountered enough sexist morons in my lifetime that I don't need them in my private entertainment space.


More or less this. It depends on how much of a moron and how well written the book is, but mostly this.



Carrie Rubin said:


> That's kind of my thinking. I want to like the protagonist, or at least care about him/her. I neither like nor care for this 'hero.' Of course, I'm halfway through the book now, and I want to see how it ends, but I won't read any more books with this character as the lead.


That's how I felt about the one I read. Too bad, I wanted to like it.

Betsy


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> More or less this. It depends on how much of a moron and how well written the book is, but mostly this.


Sometimes, you can go with it because you know the character is going to develop or get edumacated. But, other times, you just know the character is going to be this way for a dozen books and you just move on to something more your speed.


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## Trophywife007 (Aug 31, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> ... But, other times, you just know the character is going to be this way for a dozen books and you just move on to something more your speed.


I recently read a sample in which I could tell that I wasn't going to like the main character. It was written in first person, which I usually like, but I don't know... maybe the chewing tobacco put me off.

The two examples the OP describes seem more sophomoric rather than sexist. If that continued throughout the book it would get old really fast.


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## Carrie Rubin (Nov 19, 2012)

Trophywife007 said:


> The two examples the OP describes seem more sophomoric rather than sexist. If that continued throughout the book it would get old really fast.


Believe me, it has.


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## thedavebright (Sep 8, 2012)

Carrie Rubin said:


> That's kind of my thinking. I want to like the protagonist, or at least care about him/her. I neither like nor care for this 'hero.' Of course, I'm halfway through the book now, and I want to see how it ends, but I won't read any more books with this character as the lead.


Sounds like the right approach. From what I've read on here it doesn't seem to be a worthwhile read. As others have mentioned, the poor description would probably put me off the most.


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## Adele Ward (Jan 2, 2012)

Sexist writing really puts me off. It can ruin crime novels for me. There are some great crime novelists who aren't sexist, and don't treat female characters as airheads. I love crime novels but only if the female characters aren't treated as stereotypes.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

If he's trying to be humorous, he isn't doing it very well. "Balloon" is not a funny word. On the other hand, you can rarely go wrong with "casaba":

"It looked like she was trying to smuggle casabas in her bra."
"Roger was knocked out by a wayward casaba."
"I'll hand it to Mick, he had balls the size of casabas."
"Your advice and a casaba would be worth the price of the casaba."

etc.

FWIW. (Which would be...about the price of a medium-sized casaba.)


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

I will add that I once attempted to read a book where there were a lot of sexist remarks, and I was unable to finish it.

Part of the reason was that it was so filled with errors, but the rest was due to the irritating sexist things.

However, it was the character's thought that created the issue. 

The book read as if the author would enter occasionally and have his own soliloquies to degrade women. These little diatribes weren't even thinly veiled as a character's thoughts.

So, yeah, I was offended by that author.


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## CPSennett (Jan 21, 2013)

Hi all,

I tend to find its swings and roundabouts really, I mean did Edward and Jacob need their shirts off that much.....nope.

Authors have styles and some feed a market more than others.  This said, I think its even more a case of the lead character you start with in a book.  They tend to set the tone for the rest of it.

My point is a good read is still a good read and it's often driven by the characters in it, also sexy sells.


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## Chandra Renard (Oct 17, 2012)

QuantumIguana said:


> With the old hard-boiled detectives, they would use phrases like "She head legs that just wouldn't stop". It works - provided you don't think about it to hard. What, was someone expecting the legs to stop partway up? they have to connect to the torso sooner or later.


"Her gorgeous legs stopped at the knees, and she hovered a foot above them..."


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## Trophywife007 (Aug 31, 2009)

Chandra Renard said:


> "Her gorgeous legs stopped at the knees, and she hovered a foot above them..."


Mr. 007 used to work with a colleague about whom he said, "Her legs could walk around by themselves." I thought it was an apt description... but it still doesn't strike me as sexist.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

I had an interesting experience at something like this tonight.

I've recently taken a fancy to the old work of Cab Calloway, sparked oddly enough by something I read.  This evening I watched one of his films, "Hi-De-Ho" on Amazon Prime Video.  It's a classic "race film", cheaply done with an all-black cast and a shallow plot that is there only as an excuse to hang the music and dance numbers onto (and they abandon even that sham in the last half hour of the film, when they go all-music, all the time).

But one of the first things that happens in the film is that Cab slaps his girlfriend Minnie hard enough to knock her down.  Admittedly they were quarreling and she'd just deliberately provoked him.  But Cab doesn't even seem to feel he's done anything to be apologetic or even embarrassed about. A few minutes later, she gets slapped down again, though this is more forgivable, as the second slapper is the head bad guy, and we expect that sort of behavior from them in our movies (he gets his just desserts later, fear not).  But I don't expect to see the hero casually slapping around his girlfriend without so much as a later apology, even in a 1947 film!

In other ways, the film isn't demeaning to women; the second major female character (and the one who was the cause of the quarrel where Cab slapped Minnie) is Cab's business manager, and is treated as such with great deference and respect by Cab.  Rather unusual and positive for 1947, I'd say.  Of course, to show that she is smart she has to wear glasses....But she ditches them later in the movie so she can be attractive.

Anyway, it made me think of this thread.  I was just there for the musical numbers, so other than being a bit surprised at the conflicting ways of treating women shown in the movie, I just waited to get the dull acting over with so someone would sing or dance again!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I do make allowances for older books, since the social rules have changed. However, many of them I still can't read. i.e. Heinlein


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

I've read a couple of Nelson DeMille books before and really liked them (The Charm School is on my list of all-time "seriously-could-not-put-it-down" books). I don't remember anything particularly sexist about those. 

I read Plum Island this summer and yes there were sexist comments by the character/narrator who would make them and then say "Yeah I know that's a sexist thing to say". They didn't bother me because it was the character speaking and showing he recognizes his flaws. And also because the character was in a bit of a dark place at the time of the book, so would be less inclined to censor his comments. Also, I'm just not easily offended.    There are 6 books in the series so those who are offended might want to skip those (I plan on reading more to see how Corey moves on with his fictional life, and my husband enjoyed them). But I wouldn't give up on DeMille - he's a very good writer, IMO.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

A reminder to our new author-members that this is the Book Corner and that you must have your "reader" hat on, not your "writer" hat.  Posts that discuss your books will be edited or removed, sorry.

Betsy


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> A reminder to our new author-members that this is the Book Corner and that you must have your "reader" hat on, not your "writer" hat. Posts that discuss your books will be edited or removed, sorry.
> 
> Betsy


Writers...read?? Who told you that?!?!? 

/ok behaving now I PROMISE


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Writers...read?? Who told you that?!?!?
> 
> /ok behaving now I PROMISE


We moderators do find it hard to believe at times. 

Betsy


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> We moderators do find it hard to believe at times.
> 
> Betsy


*giggle*

~~

I do have a lot more tolerance for older books with sexism as opposed to new books. Those just...ARG.


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