# Warning: KDP banning old and new erotica titles en masse from self-publishers



## ghostwriter80

Amazon is, yet again, changing their "acceptable" content policy when it comes to KDP uploads. Day by day, they are going through the back catalogs of all the erotica writers/uploaders and indiscriminately pulling down titles which have been up for a long time due to acceptable content policy violations. It crosses many different genres of erotica: BBW, Scifi, BDSM, light erotica, etc. Including the ones which are titled in a non-raunchy manner. They are especially hard on the ones which are graphically and explicitly titled, such as "[Expletive] in Hard the A** By The Neighbor".

They do not give any specifics as to what constitutes acceptable content as it is very, very vague, as posted on their website and sending customer service emails to them only gets you back more vague reasons as to why the stuff is unacceptable to them normally.

https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/help?topicId=A3KIRDTX1UQJX0

The issue is if that if an author re-uploads previously "unacceptable" content back to KDP they block your account. So this makes uploading old material back to amazon, even if it is retitled, nearly impossible.

Long story short, yesterday my editor and I lost 106 erotica titles, many of which had been up for a year or more as ebooks, that violated amazons new "acceptable" content guidelines.

Basically, the erotica market on Amazon is getting so censored and "acceptable" content policies are getting so erratic it makes little to no business sense to continue operating there at least on a print and ebook basis.


----------



## Quiss

Condolences.
That's a hard blow against porn writers (sorry, could NOT resist. I'm ebil. EBIL!)

Bottom line is that Amazon can set their own rules as to what they deem acceptable. It's not censorship. It's inventory.

This goes with my personal "sky is falling" paranoia that, now that Amazon is firmly entrenched in the book publishing market with more Big Five playing their game, they no longer need the indies and are pushing them out of sight in favor of the higher-priced merchandise.
If I wasn't such a coward, I'd publish an eBook for 12 bucks to see what happens.


----------



## ghostwriter80

I have a couple of KDP accounts and this is the email that two of the account got yesterday. Names and titles have been redacted:

Hello,

We're contacting you regarding the following book(s) that you submitted for sale in our Kindle Store:

(106 titles listed)

During our review process, we found that your book contains content that is in violation of our content guidelines. Our content guidelines apply to the book interior, as well as cover image, title and/or product descriptions. As a result, we will not be offering this book for sale.

Our content guidelines are published on the Kindle Direct Publishing website. To learn more, please see: https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/help?topicId=A1KT4ANX0RL55I

Best regards,
(customer service rep name)


----------



## Duane Gundrum

Reading their content guidelines, this has to be my favorite, because there's absolutely no way to figure out what's wrong:

*Offensive Content*
What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect.


----------



## jvin248

Quiss said:


> ... I'd publish an eBook for 12 bucks to see what happens.


.
I tried that with a boxed set, thought I'd see what that party might be like, had my shoes polished and jacket on to go mingle, and then midway through uploading found Amazon has a price ceiling for indies at $9.99. 
.
.


----------



## Duane Gundrum

jvin248 said:


> .
> I tried that with a boxed set, thought I'd see what that party might be like, had my shoes polished and jacket on to go mingle, and then midway through uploading found Amazon has a price ceiling for indies at $9.99.
> .
> .


Really? I never knew that.


----------



## ghostwriter80

The real master stroke in all this is that if you have any titles which are produced under royalty share audiobook productions through ACX.com that are delisted then you are in "breach of contract" for 7 years worth of royalties to the audiobook narrator.


----------



## RaeC

It's always seemed like Amazon didn't care what was in the books as long the title, cover and blurb were vague enough to conceal it.  Maybe things are changing.  It would be unfortunate, but it would be their loss.  I have no doubt authors and fans would find an alternate distributor and leave Amazon with its 'respectable' table of smut like 50 Shades.


----------



## Nicole Castro

superfictious said:


> It's always seemed like Amazon didn't care what was in the books as long the title, cover and blurb were vague enough to conceal it. Maybe things are changing. It would be unfortunate, but it would be their loss. I have no doubt authors and fans would find an alternate distributor and leave Amazon with its 'respectable' table of smut like 50 Shades.


"We're not going to sell one of the hugest markets anymore." Smart move, Amazon. All the Fifty books are still there. I wonder how much money they have made off of EL James.


----------



## mrv01d

lordoffajitas said:


> The real master stroke in all this is that if you have any titles which are produced under royalty share audiobook productions through ACX.com that are delisted then you are in "breach of contract" for 7 years worth of royalties to the audiobook narrator.


Typically audio books aren't blocked, at least thus far. It seems that ACX is enough of a separate division that what goes for ebooks doesn't go for audio, but that could change.

M


----------



## Jash

lordoffajitas said:


> The issue is if that if an author re-uploads previously "unacceptable" content back to KDP they block your account. So this makes uploading old material back to amazon, even if it is retitled, nearly impossible.


They don't seem to have an issue with people reworking blocked content and resubmitting it. I've seen some communications with Amazon where this is explicitly stated as the best course of action. It's probably worth pointing out that in the past when this has been an issue people have always had warnings, so it's not an out-of-the-blue block.



> Basically, the erotica market on Amazon is getting so censored and "acceptable" content policies are getting so erratic it makes little to no business sense to continue operating there at least on a print and ebook basis.


I disagree strongly with this sentiment. Regardless of the hoops I have to jump through Amazon still represent around 70% of the market. Beyond banning erotica outright (which they have given no indication that that is their intent) there isn't much they could do which would make pulling the plug on them indicitive of good business sense as far as I'm concerned.

Adapt. Adapt. Adapt.


----------



## mrv01d

tkkenyon said:


> Yikes.
> 
> From what I understand, for content, it's poop, pee, animals, rape-for-fun, and snuff, right?
> 
> Covers and titles should be a little cagey, right?
> 
> I can just picture some Amazon person sitting in a little room, "reading" all these books for content, just to make sure they conform, again and again and again.
> 
> TK Kenyon


What is so interesting is, at the same time, Amazon is repackaging VC Andrews work (which is incest central) as romance. They also have a trad pub book that depicts graphic sex scenes between an adult and minor. It's not as explicit as some of the erotica, but it's graphic, disturbingly graphic. There is no way pedophiles aren't buying that book and having a good ol' time. That book is not blocked OR filtered from search results.

As always, I continue to believe it's a profit margin issue. Traditional books make more money for Amazon. Known authors (VC Andrews) make more money. When you marginalize lower profit centers, you force consumers into higher prices points/bigger profits. So incest and pedophilia are A OKAY so long as Amazon has maximized revenues. If they don't find you valuable, there's no reason not to block you and they get to hide behind the morality of 'porn is horrible' which almost no one questions. It's slick.

And again, as I've said many times before, sex machines and other 'toys' are available complete with uncensored, unfiltered graphic photos.

What they do and what they say, don't match. It's not morality, it's money.

Of course Amazon can sell whatever they want BUT on the consumer level I believe it's fraudulent for their manipulation of the search results (for filtered books at least) to be a secret. If they are going to block access to books, they should inform the consumer. Imo it's price fixing along the lines of what Kohl's and JCPenney did, manipulating prices to maximize profits.

I am thankful I didn't write any taboo erotica, however, I have regular ol' shapeshifter _romance_ that has been filtered in the past. I could easily be blocked on Amazon's whim. Anyone could.
M


----------



## Christa Wick

For the blocked or filtered titles, are you working with [email protected]? Escalate to them. If you want to make changes, they can temporarily unblock it so you can make the changes. If they tell you they can't, they've done it for others.


----------



## MorningJoe

I have been hit by this as well.  It does seem a bit random looking at which titles they blocked.  I have one Step-daddy PI which I understand is an area they are focusing on but I also had another title which had a 19 year old consenting adult that ended up in an encounter with the couple that had hired her for a babysitting job.  No incest, all consenting adults, and no other "yucky" categories that i can think of.  It has a plot and character development plus a tame cover image but was blocked.  Funny enough I submitted the next book in the series which was much more explicit and it got through fine.

I am just writing across the various sub-genres and watching to see what happens.  Unfortunately some of the most profitable niches seem to be the ones that are getting shut down.


----------



## Ty Johnston

jvin248 said:


> I tried that with a boxed set, thought I'd see what that party might be like, had my shoes polished and jacket on to go mingle, and then midway through uploading found Amazon has a price ceiling for indies at $9.99.


That's only if you want the 70 percent in royalties. KDP actually allows a maximum list price of $200.

https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/help?topicId=A301WJ6XCJ8KW0


----------



## Christa Wick

Morning Joe - from some of the other authors I've communicated with, it sounds like they're going after the barely legal titles now, too. So anything clearly suggesting barely legal, especially with virgin, is subject to getting hit.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

It took KDP more than 3 days to approve my new release. Are they cracking down on everyone, or just erotica? Smashwords also took 2 weeks to approve the Premium catalog, which combined with Amazon really messed up my release plans. I wonder if it's not related? I've never had issues like this. Another author suggested it was due to the cover image/naked back on my cover.  But for Pete's sake, mine is nothing compared to lots of covers out there. Color me confused.


----------



## D.L. Shutter

Judging by the erotica forums I lurk at this is growing. Perhaps moreso than last years crackdown. Anything suggestive of violence, non-consent, PI and (potentially) bestiality themes is getting smacked hard. Bottom line (IMO) is that Amazon is prioritizing customers complaining about adult material found while searching for keyword related items. I say that because I hear a lot of rallying that smut writers are being maliciously targeted. Despite filters that have been in place for awhile now I still see smut while searching for misc stuff. I don't mind but I'll bet tens of millions of other shoppers do.

It's Halloween season. Just imagine how many "Force F*@%ed by the ------" titles are popping up during costume searches for kids right now. It happened to me the other night.

Also, the writing is clear that the days of graphic covers, titles and descriptions are over. Everything needs to be as tame as possible on the outside or lanquish in invisibility. Or be banned outright.

Which is just what erotica writers need: even more returns and scathing 1 star's for content that isn't obvious enough in the presentation. As if that didn't happen enough already.


----------



## MorningJoe

Christa Wick said:


> Morning Joe - from some of the other authors I've communicated with, it sounds like they're going after the barely legal titles now, too. So anything clearly suggesting barely legal, especially with virgin, is subject to getting hit.


Thank's Christa. It just took me by surprise since everyone was consenting adults and quite happy with the arrangement. I guess having the word Babysitter in the title may be one of their flags.


----------



## Claudia King

Yikes. That doesn't sound good. 

I haven't had any issues with this yet, but a couple of my titles could definitely be in the firing line based on what people are saying. I really hope they become a little more transparent about what is and isn't acceptable if this continues.


----------



## MegHarris

> Bottom line (IMO) is that Amazon is prioritizing customers complaining about adult material found while searching for keyword related items. I say that because I hear a lot of rallying that smut writers are being maliciously targeted. Despite filters that have been in place for awhile now I still see smut while searching for misc stuff. I don't mind but I'll bet tens of millions of other shoppers do.


Well, then, why don't they just institute an adult on/off switch? They've been muddling around with adult titles for a long time now. Why not just do like Smashwords and have a real, proper adult filter that people can use or not, as they choose?


----------



## Mysterio

There's solid evidence to suggest at least a few Amazon reviewers are using much stricter guidelines than all the others. Specifically, Carlos F. is blocking most books by erotica authors. This is the name listed in the emails many erotica authors are receiving when they get blocked.

Many of the books he's blocking aren't even pseudo-incest and are fairly tame in other respects. Unfortunately, this is only adding to the confusion about the new standards and Amazon doesn't even seem to know about the problem.

Someone needs to alert KDP that not all their reviewers are on the same page with blocking content, but I'm not sure where this kind of complaint would be routed to.


----------



## D.L. Shutter

> Well, then, why don't they just institute an adult on/off switch?


118'th time I've heard that suggestion and it sounds smarter each time. If every art and stock photo site (heck, any site) can insert a basic adult function like that then it should be a butt scratch of an effort for Zon. Would solve a LOT of problems (for everyone) and probably save Zon a heaping on manpower for screening and acting on tens of thousands of adult titles.

Hell, Jeff can even take credit for it and leave us a note on the main page. "To better serve the interests of all our customers we'll be instituting a new search function that..."

Everyone goes back to being happy and Jeff's a hero. Again.


----------



## RaeC

By implementing a switch on their storefront, Amazon would be acknowledging that they do in fact sell naughty stories, and they're such great sellers that it warrants a switch.  Can't have the gentle, high brow ninnies realizing that while they're shopping for a copy of Lolita for school and flimsy Bratz costumes for the kiddies on Halloween.


----------



## Guest

D.L. Shutter said:


> Judging by the erotica forums I lurk at this is growing. Perhaps moreso than last years crackdown. Anything suggestive of violence, non-consent, PI and (potentially) bestiality themes is getting smacked hard. Bottom line (IMO) is that Amazon is prioritizing customers complaining about adult material found while searching for keyword related items. I say that because I hear a lot of rallying that smut writers are being maliciously targeted. Despite filters that have been in place for awhile now I still see smut while searching for misc stuff. I don't mind but I'll bet tens of millions of other shoppers do.
> 
> It's Halloween season. Just imagine how many "Force F*@%ed by the ------" titles are popping up during costume searches for kids right now. It happened to me the other night.


I actually had this issue last night as well. I was browsing for some new horror titles and came across a few titles that...well...probably should not have been under the general "horror" search.

I think what is happening, however, is a self-perpetuating cycle. Amazon has ALWAYS been heavy-handed with everything. This is nothing new. Amazon is not known for using a scalpel to repair an issue. _They have always used a chainsaw_. And yes, I think it is clear from everything that I have read that they have been cracking down on erotic titles. I do not doubt this.

But, erotica authors have perpetuated the problem by simply miscategorizing their books to evade the Amazon filters. There is NO reason an erotic title should be categorized under the horror genre. And looking at some of the titles, they aren't just showing up in horror search. The authors have put them in the horror genre. I understand the idea: put it in genres where it will be seen. But by doing this, you encourage more customer complaints from people who are seeing erotic titles when they are searching for other things.

And the more complaints Amazon gets, the more they use the chainsaw.

The solution is for Amazon to institute an adult filter on the site. That is the practical solution. But then there is the issue that erotica authors won't use it. Even when I browse on Smashwords with the adult filter, I come across obviously erotic content where the author chose to not label it adult. If authors don't use the filter, the filter doesn't work. 
I am curious if erotic authors have considered getting together to communicate with Amazon en masse to find a solution? Not some stupid public petition that is just meant to be confrontational. But several dozen authors getting together and contacting Amazon to say "We have noticed this. We know it is happening. How can WE help AMAZON develop a better system to support OUR customers?"

The worst that happens is you get a form reply. The best that happens is that you get a seat at the virtual table and maybe something can be sorted out. But it may be more effective to simply get together and confront the issue directly and professionally instead of hand-wringing in forums.


----------



## ElHawk

Great suggestion, Julie.  I hope erotica authors will take your advice and do just that!


----------



## Vaalingrade

Amazon DOT Com: "If it was good enough for Betamax, it's good enough for us."


----------



## Eltanin Publishing

I am far from a prude, but I do think it's reasonable for titles and covers to not be overly graphic, because they do on occasion come up accidentally for people searching for other things. This would be my opinion if I came across "[Expletive] in Hard the A** By The Neighbor" when I wasn't looking for porn (though, don't you mean "[Expletive] Hard in the A** By The Neighbor"?).

That being said, looks like Amazon does need to be more specific when explaining what is and isn't acceptable. If people clearly knew what was ok and what wan't, it would make "adapting" much easier.


----------



## MsTee

Diana & Lacey said:


> This worked for me. My best selling title, which had been ranked 5K-8K for at least a month, was blocked. I emailed [email protected] and asked to re-work the cover, description and title. I re-worked it, it was re-blocked. I asked again, really stripped things down the second time around, and it was accepted and published.
> 
> Amazon's just trying to clean up the store front. I changed zero content within the actual book. They're not out to get writers of erotica, they're just trying to keep their storefront from turning into a wall of super-smut.
> 
> My advise is to re-work your title, description and cover then resubmit.


^ This. I was languishing in the Adult filter for awhile and I knew why but I was too stubborn to change it. Eventually, I went and covered my lady on the cover (though she WAS wearing underthings; she was just standing at an awkward angle where you couldn't see it clearly). I also removed keywords that Amazon might have attributed to more innocent stuff. When I emailed Author Central, the rep removed the filter for me very quickly.

I read an informative article by Selena Kitt here: http://selenakitt.com/blog/index.php/2013/09/17/amazon-at-it-again-blocking-pseudoincest-and-monster-sex/

I completely agree with her. Amazon has no problem with erotica or smutty works - that is obvious in the fact that they have a DEDICATED store to adult toys and are selling adult DVDs - they just don't want your erotica...looking like erotica. No swear words in your titles and descriptions. No words that will be related with kids stuff in your keywords. No butts, thong-wearing, exposed breasts, neck-kissing, breast-grabbing - no 90% of skin (both female and male skin) revealed on your covers.

Still, I'm a bit ambivalent about the adaptation of Fifty-Shades-esque covers. On one hand, it'll be nice to no longer be shocked and turned off by vulgar, unimaginative titles and sex scenes in descriptions, but on the other hand, I'm not looking forward to erotica covers being forced to only have feathers or cuff-links or cat collars on them.


----------



## RaeC

I think the question is: were there these large amounts of miscategorizations before the removal of the visible erotica link and the implementation of the "dungeon"?  You guys would know better than I would, but I have a hard time imagining innocuous keyword searches brought about the threat of smut listings 3 or 4 years ago.  At least I can't remember it happening to me.

And I have an even harder time believing that Amazon, this brilliant, forward-thinking company everyone describes, didn't see this coming when they actively decided they only wanted to be backdoor smut peddlers and screen off the front from a large portion of their indie success stories.  These success stories, I might add, are what encouraged a slew of new self-pub authors--some erotica, some not--to give it a go.  I'm not saying this is some grand scheme to systematically filter out the unwanteds by forcing them to break the rules, but I can see how some people might feel that way.


----------



## daringnovelist

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But, erotica authors have perpetuated the problem by simply miscategorizing their books to evade the Amazon filters. There is NO reason an erotic title should be categorized under the horror genre. And looking at some of the titles, they aren't just showing up in horror search. The authors have put them in the horror genre. I understand the idea: put it in genres where it will be seen. But by doing this, you encourage more customer complaints from people who are seeing erotic titles when they are searching for other things.


Yep yep yep.

The fear of the "adult dungeon" is also causing a lot of people to misrepresent their work in all sorts of ways. People get desperate. But really, it's important to not make things worse. (And remember, just because folks here talk it out, doesn't mean that those who hear the rumors actually know what's going on.)

The "taming down" of descriptions shouldn't be about hiding the true content. Also, keywords -- that could be a big driver of this problem. If people are key wording their books as " Halloween, Monsters, Sex" then it's going to come up along with kids Halloween books about monsters. It may trigger Amazon to put "Halloween sex, Vampire erotica" sorts of keywords -- but it won't trigger so many complaints which are the real trigger for Amazon crackdowns.

Camille


----------



## katherinef

Looks like my newest title could get blocked. Oh, well. I'll sell it elsewhere if Amazon doesn't want it. But they should really have a filter for this thing and add subcategories for erotica. It would solve so many problems.


----------



## Nicole Castro

superfictious said:


> By implementing a switch on their storefront, Amazon would be acknowledging that they do in fact sell naughty stories, and they're such great sellers that it warrants a switch. Can't have the gentle, high brow ninnies realizing that while they're shopping for a copy of Lolita for school and flimsy Bratz costumes for the kiddies on Halloween.


LMAO exactly.

And once Amazon takes this sales hit, I have to think that an option will quickly be instilled.


----------



## mrv01d

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But, erotica authors have perpetuated the problem by simply miscategorizing their books to evade the Amazon filters.


Authors aren't perpetuating the problem, Amazon is. No one would be miscategorizing their books if Amazon would manage the whole thing properly. This was not a common practice among indies until Amazon started removing books from search.

And, of course, genre hopping is a widespread issue anyway. I've seen traditionally pubbed romance 'slumming' in erotica b/c it was easier to rank in Top 100 and gain the visibility needed to boost sales.

M


----------



## mrv01d

MsTee said:


> ^ This. I was languishing in the Adult filter for awhile and I knew why but I was too stubborn to change it. Eventually, I went and covered my lady on the cover (though she WAS wearing underthings; she was just standing at an awkward angle where you couldn't see it clearly). I also removed keywords that Amazon might have attributed to more innocent stuff. When I emailed Author Central, the rep removed the filter for me very quickly.
> 
> I read an informative article by Selena Kitt here: http://selenakitt.com/blog/index.php/2013/09/17/amazon-at-it-again-blocking-pseudoincest-and-monster-sex/
> 
> I completely agree with her. Amazon has no problem with erotica or smutty works - that is obvious in the fact that they have a DEDICATED store to adult toys and are selling adult DVDs - they just don't want your erotica...looking like erotica. No swear words in your titles and descriptions. No words that will be related with kids stuff in your keywords. No butts, thong-wearing, exposed breasts, neck-kissing, breast-grabbing - no 90% of skin (both female and male skin) revealed on your covers.
> 
> Still, I'm a bit ambivalent about the adaptation of Fifty-Shades-esque covers. On one hand, it'll be nice to no longer be shocked and turned off by vulgar, unimaginative titles and sex scenes in descriptions, but on the other hand, I'm not looking forward to erotica covers being forced to only have feathers or cuff-links or cat collars on them.


Weeell from what I've heard/observed elsewhere, the scrutiny now goes down to content. They're really combing through stuff. I don't think this is a title cover purge alone.

M


----------



## Guest

ElHawk said:


> Great suggestion, *****. I hope erotica authors will take your advice and do just that!


Thanks. The one thing I see that continues to happen with this issue is that both sides just get more confrontational. Erotica authors get more in-your-face. Some of the comments I read on various sites about this are really insulting to people who don't read erotica, frankly. It is no more appropriate for erotica authors to call readers prudes for not wanting to see erotic content than it is for others to call erotica authors smut-peddlers or other names for writing erotica. Respect has to work BOTH WAYS.

The goal of EVERYONE involved should be a smooth customer experience. If I am looking for a cute father-daughter book for a friend's kid, I don't want to have to scroll through pages of step-daddy sex stories. And I would think customers interested in step-daddy sex stories would in fact be EQUALLY annoyed if they had to scroll through pages of children's books talking about father-daughter relationships to find what they wanted. 

The fact that Amazon sells adult sex toys is not relevant to the conversation because I have never in over a decade of being an Amazon customer accidentally came across an adult sex toy while looking for children's toys. I HAVE, however, come across erotic books while looking for children's and YA titles for gifts. And every time it has happened, it has been from an indie author.

And to be clear, I don't mean that it is the author's fault per se. Part of the problem is that KDP offers limited tools for categorizing books to begin with. KDP titles are not categorized the same way trade pub books are. So authors have to sometimes put things "where they best fit" instead of "where they belong." And yes, there are ways to fix this manually by working with customer service directly. But outside of KB, how many authors know this?

So my hope is that a group of authors will get together and approach Amazon in a way that recognizes that the goal is to benefit ALL customers and make ALL customers have a positive experience. So long as the standard response remains working in small corners of erotica forums trying to find workarounds to Amazon's filters INSTEAD of talking directly with Amazon, this situation will only get worse for all parties involved.

Amazon is NOT going to take the initiative here to invite erotica authors to the table. They need to write their own invitation and make it clear to Amazon that they want the same thing Amazon does: to help customers make good choices based on their preferences.

Heck, I'm willing to help write the initial communications and help with the wording (I have a background in Public Relations, after all). Just get a group together interested in signing on the project. I can help with the presentation, but I'm not an erotica author so I can't fight the fight.


----------



## Alex Anders

mrv01d said:


> Typically audio books aren't blocked, at least thus far. It seems that ACX is enough of a separate division that what goes for ebooks doesn't go for audio, but that could change.
> 
> M


I have personally spoken to the person at ACX who is responsible for removing Amazon censored books from Audible. She told me that she got a notice from Amazon asking them to remove one of my Audiobooks. It was one of the first that she had gotten so she called me because we had spoken many times before.

I told her how I had contacted Amazon many times to find out what was wrong with the book and that I had never gotten a clear response. She then replied back to her contacts asking them for specific reasons for why ACX should remove my title. They never responded to her, so she never removed the book. I think that from that point forward, their policy became that they don't remove books unless they are given a very specific reason why. And because Amazon doesn't even give reasons to their actual partners, we are safe for now.

That happened about a year ago (I think). But that shows you the difference between the attitude at ACX vs Amazon.


----------



## jackz4000

Excellent well-balance post Julie. I've seen them pop-up too when I'm searching a genre or using keywords. A while back they were coming up in genres which weren't erotica. I thought it was weird, but I'm sure some people didn't like it.  

If I'm searching for kitchen faucets I don't expect software to be included.


----------



## D.L. Shutter

> So my hope is that a group of authors will get together and approach Amazon in a way that recognizes that the goal is to benefit ALL customers and make ALL customers have a positive experience.


Best thought on the subject I've heard so far. Someone with a following and a big number of ears could do a good job at championing this.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

I wonder if the fact that Amazon is releasing new Paperwhites on October 1 and new Fires mid October through November has anything to do with this?  Perhaps they anticipate a bunch of new site users.

Betsy


----------



## Speaker-To-Animals

All everyone wants from Amazon is consistency and communication. If there's a rule against something, why in the names of the Gods don't they just publish it and when they do find something against the rules, why can't they remove the book and say "we think the cover is too risque because the lingerie reveals part of the models buttocks, please correct and resubmit" rather than saying "the content, cover, or title violates our guidelines." I understand it takes time to type a thought out response, but it has to be faster than someone resubmitting the book again and again based on guesses about what's wrong with it.


----------



## MegHarris

> The solution is for Amazon to institute an adult filter on the site. That is the practical solution. But then there is the issue that erotica authors won't use it. Even when I browse on Smashwords with the adult filter, I come across obviously erotic content where the author chose to not label it adult. If authors don't use the filter, the filter doesn't work.


Absolutely. If they do a filter like this, erotica authors need to use it, and to correctly label their stuff "adult." If they don't, then Amazon should lower the ban hammer. But honestly, I don't think many erotica authors would have a problem with their stuff being labeled "adult"-- as Diana & Lacey pointed out, it would actually help sales in many cases. The reason people are ducking the "adult" filter isn't because they have a problem with their stuff being labeled adult, but because it's implemented erratically, and because it makes your book really hard to find in and sort of cheats by making casual readers think your book isn't on Amazon at all. If Amazon consistently put adult books into an adult area, it'd be easier for people who want them to find them. Of course there will still be people who try to avoid it, but that can be remedied pretty easily by warning/freezing of accounts, I think.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

D.L. Shutter said:


> 118'th time I've heard that suggestion and it sounds smarter each time. If every art and stock photo site (heck, any site) can insert a basic adult function like that then it should be a butt scratch of an effort for Zon. Would solve a LOT of problems (for everyone) and probably save Zon a heaping on manpower for screening and acting on tens of thousands of adult titles.
> 
> Hell, Jeff can even take credit for it and leave us a note on the main page. "To better serve the interests of all our customers we'll be instituting a new search function that..."
> 
> Everyone goes back to being happy and Jeff's a hero. Again.


How does a book get the switch set? Who does it?



> "That being said, looks like Amazon does need to be more specific when explaining what is and isn't acceptable. If people clearly knew what was ok and what wan't, it would make "adapting" much easier."


The Supreme Court couldn't do it. I doubt Amazon would do any better.

Justice Potter Stewart was reduced to saying he knows obscenity when he sees it. And he was being honest. People want a subjective standard that they can use in an objective manner on subjective content of specific books. That doesn't work.


----------



## dalya

MegHarris said:


> Well, then, why don't they just institute an adult on/off switch? They've been muddling around with adult titles for a long time now. Why not just do like Smashwords and have a real, proper adult filter that people can use or not, as they choose?


I know, right?! This just stuns me. The person-hours involved in manually removing titles! Readers apparently want to purchase the titles, so this doesn't serve readers.

If they would just provide more specific guidelines, so you don't have to rely on third-party information, that would also be helpful.


----------



## Gone To Croatan

Mimi said:


> If they would just provide more specific guidelines, so you don't have to rely on third-party information, that would also be helpful.


The problem with specific guidelines is that people would then say 'Hey! How come Big New Book X from Big Name Publisher Y doesn't meet these guidelines, but it's not flagged as adult?'


----------



## Paranormal Piper

MegHarris said:


> Well, then, why don't they just institute an adult on/off switch? They've been muddling around with adult titles for a long time now. Why not just do like Smashwords and have a real, proper adult filter that people can use or not, as they choose?


In my opinion, Amazon will NEVER create such a filter for their site because it would also block the 'mainstream' erotica titles like 50 Shades, and that is too much money for them to pass up by making titles like that invisible.

The only way around it would be to have a softcore filter and a hardcore filter... which would then lead to endless arguments about what the definition of those two niches are.


----------



## Guest

Katie Elle said:


> All everyone wants from Amazon is consistency and communication. If there's a rule against something, why in the names of the Gods don't they just publish it and when they do find something against the rules, why can't they remove the book and say "we think the cover is too risque because the lingerie reveals part of the models buttocks, please correct and resubmit" rather than saying "the content, cover, or title violates our guidelines." I understand it takes time to type a thought out response, but it has to be faster than someone resubmitting the book again and again based on guesses about what's wrong with it.


There are two issues at work:

1. The long-argued about difference between 'art' and 'porn.' If you outright say "No bare breasts" does that only apply to live models, or does it also apply to covers that feature the Venus de Milo? Does it apply equally to a medical guide on how to perform a self-exam? If you outright say "no bare buttocks" does that also apply to prints of the majority of 13th-16th century oil paintings that feature nudity?

2. The unfortunate ability of too many people to use the rules as a weapon against those who write them. The more explicitly you try to write rules, the more likely some people will make it their mission to push the limits of the rule right up to the line, and then yell at YOU that since you didn't specifically say X was not OK then it is your fault.

Even between two similar covers, what might be OK on cover A won't be OK on cover B. Sometimes the line between acceptable and unacceptable isn't how much skin is shown, but the actual pose. Skin-wise, there isn't a lot of difference between a bikini and some lingerie. But there IS a difference between a rear shot of a woman playing beach volleyball in a bathing suit and a rear shot of a woman bent over a chair wearing bikini-cut panties.


----------



## Just Browsing

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> 1. The long-argued about difference between 'art' and 'porn.' If you outright say "No bare breasts" does that only apply to live models, or does it also apply to covers that feature the Venus de Milo? Does it apply equally to a medical guide on how to perform a self-exam? If you outright say "no bare buttocks" does that also apply to prints of the majority of 13th-16th century oil paintings that feature nudity?


You gotta hand it to the Venus de Milo.

How else would she eat?

(sorry)

I do see what you're saying, but I think guidelines that are more specific than "about what you would expect" would be helpful. I've never had anything blocked, but I've had books that were fine for 2 years suddenly get the "adult" label--apparently because thongs used to be OK on covers, and now they're not. Well, I wish I'd been told that I was getting the label (rather than having to check every title I publish every week, which is what I do now), and I wish I'd been told that they were changing their guidelines. I mean, they knew they were changing. Why not notify publishers in general, or add it to their guidelines, or at least notify publishers of books that were affected?

I still would like the on/off toggle switch. I realize that would move 50 Shades over as well, but then it should be. IMHO. Surely Amazon and we (authors/publishers) want the same thing here--readers who WANT our books to be able to find them, and people who don't want to see our books to not have to see them, especially unexpectedly and while looking for something else. I can't imagine any reader who is not interested in erotica is going to come across one of my titles by accident and think, "Well, that's certainly explicit and not what I enjoy, so why not buy it?" I have nothing to gain and potentially something to lose by upsetting that reader.


----------



## SBJones

This is my guess.  Someone got promoted to a position of power and has decided to interpret the rules differently and is smacking down on what they deem inappropriate.

As a long time World of Warcraft player, I got tired of wasting time waiting on other people.  I became a multi-boxer and ran my own 5-man group.  I joined a multi-boxing community and had a lot of fun.  My efficiency went through the roof.  No waiting on dungeons, no under-geared or crappy players causing wipes and best of all.  All the loot was mine, mine, MINE!!!

Anyway.  Multi-boxing is not against the rules or an illegal way to play the game.  A lot of people hated on it, viewed it as cheating and mocked that anyone would pay $45 a month on a game.  We were basement virgins.  None of us cared.  However two, three or sometimes four times a year there would be a wave of bans that rolled through the Multi-Boxing community.  A few emails and phone calls later everyone always got their account bans lifted.  

EVERY SINGLE TIME this happened was because a new customer service game master got promoted and had the ability to "ban cheaters".


----------



## Guest

1001nightspress said:


> I do see what you're saying, but I think guidelines that are more specific than "about what you would expect" would be helpful. I've never had anything blocked, but I've had books that were fine for 2 years suddenly get the "adult" label--apparently because thongs used to be OK on covers, and now they're not. Well, I wish I'd been told that I was getting the label (rather than having to check every title I publish every week, which is what I do now), and I wish I'd been told that they were changing their guidelines. I mean, they knew they were changing. Why not notify publishers in general, or add it to their guidelines, or at least notify publishers of books that were affected?


Unfortunately this is a larger cultural problem at Amazon that has little to do specifically with erotica authors. Amazon's policy has always been "you will do it our way, when we say, even if we change our minds seventeen times over the course of seven days." Amazon has NEVER done a whole lot of communication with publishers. And the truth is, I can't even say this is specific to Amazon. it is a general corporate culture. Small vendors are always at the bottom of the list when dealing with huge corporations. And for all the talk about indies as a whole...we are not a single, cohesive unit. We are 100,000 tiny individual vendors and if a thousand of us vanished tommarrow Amazon would not even notice. For all the fluffy-bunny stuff they say in press releases, they do not consider us meaningful business partners. Collectively we bring in a lot of revenue, but individually we are interchangeable and Amazon has no reason to treat us otherwise because we are replaceable. That's what all the fluffy-bunny PR is for, after all. To create a continued stream of dreamers looking to be the next big thing.

But this is why I think it is important for erotica authors to work as a group. Individual emails get lost in a sea of customer service reps with various degrees of experience. A single letter signed by 30 or 40 of the genre's bestselling authors? Thank gets a bit more attention. That might be enough to force someone's hand.

Our collective strength means nothing if we don't actually use it collectively.


----------



## MsTee

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Unfortunately this is a larger cultural problem at Amazon that has little to do specifically with erotica authors. Amazon's policy has always been "you will do it our way, when we say, even if we change our minds seventeen times over the course of seven days." Amazon has NEVER done a whole lot of communication with publishers. And the truth is, I can't even say this is specific to Amazon. it is a general corporate culture. Small vendors are always at the bottom of the list when dealing with huge corporations. And for all the talk about indies as a whole...we are not a single, cohesive unit. We are 100,000 tiny individual vendors and if a thousand of us vanished tommarrow Amazon would not even notice. For all the fluffy-bunny stuff they say in press releases, they do not consider us meaningful business partners. Collectively we bring in a lot of revenue, but individually we are interchangeable and Amazon has no reason to treat us otherwise because we are replaceable. That's what all the fluffy-bunny PR is for, after all. To create a continued stream of dreamers looking to be the next big thing.
> 
> But this is why I think it is important for erotica authors to work as a group. Individual emails get lost in a sea of customer service reps with various degrees of experience. A single letter signed by 30 or 40 of the genre's bestselling authors? Thank gets a bit more attention. That might be enough to force someone's hand.
> 
> Our collective strength means nothing if we don't actually use it collectively.


Julie, I agree with you, but there's the one small problem of: who will take the first step? It's all fine to say everyone must work together, but everyone will be standing around waiting on SOMEONE to make the first move towards that goal.


----------



## RaeC

MsTee said:


> Julie, I agree with you, but there's the one small problem of: who will take the first step? It's all fine to say everyone must work together, but everyone will be standing around waiting on SOMEONE to make the first move towards that goal.


It would probably have to be a heavyweight like Selena Kitt, and I know she's voiced frustrations in the past about Amazon's arbitrary policy changes.


----------



## Guest

MsTee said:


> *****, I agree with you, but there's the one small problem of: who will take the first step? It's all fine to say everyone must work together, but everyone will be standing around waiting on SOMEONE to make the first move towards that goal.


Well it can't be me. I'm not an erotica author. I've offered to help with the language for the letter, as it is something I am actually rather adept at. But yes, it is a matter of someone showing the will to do more than complain in the forum about mean old Amazon and decide to take constructive action.

This will in all things always be the biggest limitation of indies: the inability to step up and unite constructively for a common goal. I've always joked about getting indies to work together being a lot like herding cats. But it is more true than people realize.


----------



## Dormouse

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> 1. The long-argued about difference between 'art' and 'porn.' If you outright say "No bare breasts" does that only apply to live models, or does it also apply to covers that feature the Venus de Milo? Does it apply equally to a medical guide on how to perform a self-exam? If you outright say "no bare buttocks" does that also apply to prints of the majority of 13th-16th century oil paintings that feature nudity?


It seems that all nudity is a problem for the US version of Amazon. I don't recall who it was but one writer once mentioned that she had to change the cover of one of her historical romance stories because she'd used the image of a painting that showed a woman's breasts.

It also seems that it's mostly amazon.com that has these major issues and gets the constant complaints. I've talked to erotica writers here in Germany who mainly publish on amazon.de (in German) and they have had no problems with their covers so far. And I'm talking here about covers that really show everything like naked breasts, nipples, bare asses (not even a thong in sight), or the shaved pubic area. Some of the titles are similarly obvious where their titles are concerned.


----------



## brie.mcgill

I'll happily sign something, but I'm hardly a heavyweight at all.

Has anyone had trouble with romances that contain sex, but are clearly not erotica?


----------



## MsTee

superfictious said:


> It would probably have to be a heavyweight like Selena Kitt, and I know she's voiced frustrations in the past about Amazon's arbitrary policy changes.


True. I've thought about her, too. She seems to be genuinely invested in this genre and may have the gumption to tackle Amazon. 



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well it can't be me. I'm not an erotica author. I've offered to help with the language for the letter, as it is something I am actually rather adept at. But yes, it is a matter of someone showing the will to do more than complain in the forum about mean old Amazon and decide to take constructive action.
> 
> This will in all things always be the biggest limitation of indies: the inability to step up and unite constructively for a common goal. I've always joked about getting indies to work together being a lot like herding cats. But it is more true than people realize.


Lol! Yes, the phrase that 'there is strength in numbers' is so accurate. Sometimes, I think of the potential that could be achieved if indies were more unified and less competitive. Adopt a 'fanfiction mentality' in a way - where it's not about who has the most sales/reviews/readers, but about the genuine joy of writing, sharing your works with others, and even reccing other writers' stuff. Where you'll have authors sharing their reader base with other authors who write similar works.

I'm sorry to go off like that, but it's something that has been on my chest ever since I began seriously looking at publishing. But to get back on topic: yes, instead of us whining every Monday morning about a new change on Amazon that negatively affects us, maybe it's time we seriously consider ways we can permanently alleviate our problems.

One thought I've always had is to throw our strength behind a storefront that welcomes Erotic works. There's nothing to stop us from still having our works on Amazon, but if we focussed more of our attention and time on a company that actually respects us, maybe the decrease in income might finally get Amazon's attention.


----------



## 10105

My first reaction is to see an opportunity. The "Banned in Boston" tag used to sell a lot of books. Perhaps a new startup distributor that features titles that have been banned by Amazon could get some traction. It ought to attract the buyers who want to buy those kinds of books.

The biggest technical problem would be automatic downloads to Kindles, iPads, and so on. You'd have to crack those protocols. It's possible. Calibre did it.


----------



## Just Browsing

Sadly, 1001 Nights Press does not sell enough to wield any influence. But I'm happy to help draft letters/sign things/etc. Sometimes campaigns like that have no result, of course. But this year I agitate with a group of authors about the new policies of a major publisher, and we got a meeting with the head guy--first time ever he's met with a group of authors. So far, we've only heard of one positive result of our meeting (better contract terms for an author), but that was still something.


----------



## Lia

This is making me nervous. 

I don't write erotica, but my adult contemporary romance novels do have some steamy bits ... 

Who's going to dictate where the line is drawn?


----------



## brie.mcgill

I just noticed that my series title (Sex, Drugs, and Cyberpunk) does not appear in searches in parentheses beside my book (which, does appear in searches). The title remains on my product page... but other authors' series titles DO appear in searches. Makes me wonder if they're weeding all kinds of targeted naughtiness out of searches?

(So, in my book info, I'm changing the series title to Love, Drugs, and Cyberpunk, to see what happens. ROFL. The real title will remain inside the book...)


----------



## KaryE

I'm going to speak as a reader here, and a mom of a young teen. I find erotica mislabeled in fantasy and sci-fi categories all the time and it cheeses me off. I'm fine with people reading/writing/selling erotica, but it shouldn't be popping up in innocent searches.

Example: Go to Amazon. Type in _game of thrones_ w/o quotes and scroll down.

When I scroll through bestseller lists on both paid and free books in F & SF categories, it's not unusual to find one or two blatant erotica books per page, i.e. 1-2 out of 20. Usually, they're new releases, so that tells me that eventually they get reported or detected and moved to the proper categories.

This means I can't look at Amazon on my lunch at work because of covers, titles and descriptions that are NSFW. It means I have to pre-screen the listings if I want to sit down with my kid and pick out some books.

The argument that it's really Zon's fault when erotica writers purposefully miscategorize things "because adult dungeon" doesn't fly with me. It's not OK to break the rules just because you disagree with them, especially when the consequence of same is marketing sexually explicit material to minors.

My fear with Zon doing mass clean-ups is that it will be ever *easier* for erotica to mix in with non-erotica titles because it won't be obvious on casual perusal of cover/title/blurb.

I'd like to think there's a way to create a digital marketplace where those who want erotica can find/sell and buy it while not having it intrude where it's not wanted. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I hope it's found soon.


----------



## dalya

KaryE said:


> I'm going to speak as a reader here, and a mom of a young teen. I find erotica mislabeled in fantasy and sci-fi categories all the time and it cheeses me off. I'm fine with people reading/writing/selling erotica, but it shouldn't be popping up in innocent searches.
> 
> Example: Go to Amazon. Type in _game of thrones_ w/o quotes and scroll down.
> ....


OOOOH! Naked Battle Elves!

(image removed because it's probably NSFW) http://www.amazon.com/Naked-Battle-Elves-Chronicle-ebook/dp/B009NO17Y2/ref=sr_1_50?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1380315700&sr=1-50&keywords=game+of+thrones

Okay, I do agree that there is an *issue* with searches on Amazon.


----------



## Lia

Naked ... battled elves, eh? 

Great find, Mimi.


----------



## KaryE

Mimi said:


> OOOOH! Naked Battle Elves!


LOL!!!


----------



## Just Browsing

I remember some years ago learning how to filter google search results. It was after I was doing some research for a publisher on different uniforms worn in schools in different countries around the world. I typed in "Asian+schoolgirl+uniform." Unfiltered, you can probably guess what my results were like. ZOMG. And I couldn't even find the real info buried in all the porn sites.

I write erotica. I publish erotica. I have no qualms looking at titles and covers of even hardcore porn. BUT--that doesn't mean I want those titles to appear all the time. I'd far rather have them come up (so to speak) when I'm looking for them. If I'm searching for a book on, oh, say, artisan bread, I don't want the title three listings down to be "I forked artisan bread hard in the (gr)ass with my sister." If you know what I mean.


----------



## KaryE

Re: searches on Google...

My kid leaned this the, um, hard way, recently. He had to do a collage of things brought by conquerors into Colombian (the era, not the country) culture. He was looking for images. Pumpkins. Steel axe heads. Syphilis.


----------



## cinisajoy

Amazon needs an adult filter.
Though my poor brain got totally confused on Halloween Vampires.   There were 2 costumes.  One was sexy something woman, the other was child vampire.   OMG WTF and why is beyond me but the child costume was actually sexier looking than the adult one.   Brain bleach please.
Yes, doing that search in Kindle books only brought up erotica too.


----------



## mrv01d

KaryE said:


> I'm going to speak as a reader here, and a mom of a young teen. I find erotica mislabeled in fantasy and sci-fi categories all the time and it cheeses me off. I'm fine with people reading/writing/selling erotica, but it shouldn't be popping up in innocent searches.
> 
> Example: Go to Amazon. Type in _game of thrones_ w/o quotes and scroll down.
> 
> When I scroll through bestseller lists on both paid and free books in F & SF categories, it's not unusual to find one or two blatant erotica books per page, i.e. 1-2 out of 20. Usually, they're new releases, so that tells me that eventually they get reported or detected and moved to the proper categories.
> 
> This means I can't look at Amazon on my lunch at work because of covers, titles and descriptions that are NSFW. It means I have to pre-screen the listings if I want to sit down with my kid and pick out some books.
> 
> The argument that it's really Zon's fault when erotica writers purposefully miscategorize things "because adult dungeon" doesn't fly with me. It's not OK to break the rules just because you disagree with them, especially when the consequence of same is marketing sexually explicit material to minors.
> 
> My fear with Zon doing mass clean-ups is that it will be ever *easier* for erotica to mix in with non-erotica titles because it won't be obvious on casual perusal of cover/title/blurb.
> 
> I'd like to think there's a way to create a digital marketplace where those who want erotica can find/sell and buy it while not having it intrude where it's not wanted. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I hope it's found soon.


I don't disagree with you. I don't think those kinds of covers are ideal BUT fantasy as a genre is full of inappropriate sexual content. So rape, incest, erotic content is still all there, just under a less graphic cover.

As for the Battle Elves example, those covers aren't any worse than what you see in Maxim or the SI swimsuit issue. I was expecting something _really_ raunchy.

And Amazon doesn't dictate categories. It's not against any rules to move things around. Authors are free to categorize as they feel their books fit, but Amazon will, on occasion, move books around. Usually that's a problem b/c they get it wrong.

M


----------



## mrv01d

Edward M. Grant said:


> The problem with specific guidelines is that people would then say 'Hey! How come Big New Book X from Big Name Publisher Y doesn't meet these guidelines, but it's not flagged as adult?'


We're already saying that!


----------



## mrv01d

D.L. Shutter said:


> Best thought on the subject I've heard so far. Someone with a following and a big number of ears could do a good job at championing this.


This is kind of already happening. _Has_ been happening. There are erotica writers with contacts at higher levels in Amazon and there have been conversations, but nothing much has come of it.

We also worked in concert when Paypal started censoring stuff two years ago. Back then I seem to recall most of KB pretty much universally thought we all deserved to be banned as filthy smut peddlers.

M


----------



## mrv01d

Lia said:


> This is making me nervous.
> 
> I don't write erotica, but my adult contemporary romance novels do have some steamy bits ...
> 
> Who's going to dictate where the line is drawn?


Yep and Amazon sometimes recategorizes romances as erotica and you can't get it fixed. So much fun! Not.


----------



## brie.mcgill

My book was initially recategorized as erotica. I sent them a little email explaining that it was a romance (albeit steamy), but definitely not erotica. I moved it back into sci-fi and romance myself. They sent me a polite reply and my book hasn't been moved since (but I still check it every so often). That was four months ago.


----------



## Sophrosyne

I'm not surprised that they're cracking down -- I think it's a matter of a few newbies making stupid moves and Amazon bringing the stick down on everyone. And by stupid moves, what comes to mind is the hardcore sex scenes that are excerpted in the product descriptions. I run into those all the time. 

Personally, I agree that Amazon should corral the porn in a separate area, with separate logarithms, so the porn books don't show up on the also-boughts of kids books.

Unfortunately, since that does happen -- and most parents do not want to explain to their kids what 'daddy' is doing that young cheerleader stepdaughter on the too-explicit cover or in the hugely inappropriate XXX-rated description -- they've been complaining to Amazon. And Amazon takes those complaints seriously. So they're cracking down on everyone, the way they usually do.

The other issue I've heard is with the look-inside feature. I know authors who are appalled that the sex acts in their erotica are fully readable in the look inside. But there's nothing you can do, to reduce the percentage of visible text. When it comes to that, maybe Amazon can limit the percentage of text in erotica look-insides.

It just dawned on me -- maybe that's what they're doing, with the crack down? In addition to the cover and description being toned down, maybe they're not approving the book until the look-inside section is sex-free?


----------



## RaeC

I know I've been throwing the word around too, but is this really an issue of miscategorizing?  If an erotic title is categorized as erotica by the author, yet has keywords that place it within the search results for other items...doesn't that speak to a bigger issue?


----------



## mrv01d

brie.mcgill said:


> My book was initially recategorized as erotica. I sent them a little email explaining that it was a romance (albeit steamy), but definitely not erotica. I moved it back into sci-fi and romance myself. They sent me a polite reply and my book hasn't been moved since (but I still check it every so often). That was four months ago.


You got lucky! But keep an eye on it, they might move it back.

M


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

brie.mcgill said:


> I'll happily sign something, but I'm hardly a heavyweight at all.
> 
> Has anyone had trouble with romances that contain sex, but are clearly not erotica?


My latest release was inexplicably delayed in review status. Amazon ignored my email and ended up publishing it. Another romance writer friend mentioned she had trouble also with a cover that showed partial nudity. Not sure if it's related, but it is the first time I've ever had an issue. (Shrug)


----------



## Geoffrey

mrv01d said:


> I don't disagree with you. I don't think those kinds of covers are ideal BUT fantasy as a genre is full of inappropriate sexual content. So rape, incest, erotic content is still all there, just under a less graphic cover.
> 
> As for the Battle Elves example, those covers aren't any worse than what you see in Maxim or the SI swimsuit issue. I was expecting something _really_ raunchy.
> 
> And Amazon doesn't dictate categories. It's not against any rules to move things around. Authors are free to categorize as they feel their books fit, but Amazon will, on occasion, move books around. Usually that's a problem b/c they get it wrong.
> 
> M


I am by no means a prude nor do I disapprove of sexual content in books. And, at the same time, I know the difference between sexual content, erotica and pron poorly disguised as erotica. I should know, I've read quite a bit of all three categories. Much of what's sold as 'erotica' or simply labeled as part of the Fantasy genre is really just pron and I dislike seeing it scattered through when searching for a book. Fantasy is not full of inappropriate sexual content - I've been reading fantasy for 40 years not and I've been reading inappropriate content for about 35 years so I feel comfortable saying that. Now, there is erotica, erotic romances and pron with fantasy elements - but those are not Fantasy.

An author may well be 'free' to put a book into whatever genre they want .... and Splitting a hair and saying pron is Fantasy or Science Fiction or a Mystery or Romance in order to increase sales probably actually turns more people away than it brings in. When I'm looking for erotic content, I'll go find it. When I'm looking for a good fantasy or other story and find inappropriate sexual stories interspersed in my sales results, I'll mark them 'not interested' if possible so I never see that title again; I don't care if it's a writer on par with Anais Nin, you will not be purchased simply for being intrusive.

Just my 2-cents....


----------



## Jack C. Nemo

MsTee said:


> I'm sorry to go off like that, but it's something that has been on my chest ever since I began seriously looking at publishing. But to get back on topic: yes, instead of us whining every Monday morning about a new change on Amazon that negatively affects us, maybe it's time we seriously consider ways we can permanently alleviate our problems.
> 
> One thought I've always had is to throw our strength behind a storefront that welcomes Erotic works. There's nothing to stop us from still having our works on Amazon, but if we focussed more of our attention and time on a company that actually respects us, maybe the decrease in income might finally get Amazon's attention.


Unfortunately, that might not change things as much as we'd like. Paypal was telling the truth about who forced their attempted purge last year. While Mastercard's guidelines didn't place any restrictions on legal content, and they respected their customer's rights, Mastercard made damn sure the new vendor guidelines that came out the following month corrected that oversight.

Even getting gouged by the porn payment providers isn't a solution, because Mastercard leaned on them again towards the end of the year. EFF helped with the non-commercial site that was threatened, but hasn't shown any enthusiasm for the root of the problem.


----------



## zandermarks

Quiss said:


> This goes with my personal "sky is falling" paranoia that, now that Amazon is firmly entrenched in the book publishing market with more Big Five playing their game, they no longer need the indies and are pushing them out of sight in favor of the higher-priced merchandise.


I for one am not convinced that it's paranoia. My gut feel is that Amazon is moving towards its own labels+Big 5 and away from viewing indies as a market they need to fight for. The dampening of Select's value proposition is a symptom of that as well, I think. Unless we see changes to the contrary, my current sense is that Amazon views indies as a market they can start to take for granted.

It may not just be a matter of price, either. Although we see some of the best indie writers on this board, I think it's fair to say that there's also a lot of junk out there, and Amazon wouldn't mind being less attractive to the authors that aren't connecting with readers. Obviously, this penalizes those of us who have not yet established our audiences, regardless of the quality of what we do.


----------



## mrv01d

Jack C. Nemo said:


> Unfortunately, that might not change things as much as we'd like. Paypal was telling the truth about who forced their attempted purge last year. While Mastercard's guidelines didn't place any restrictions on legal content, and they respected their customer's rights, Mastercard made d*mn sure the new vendor guidelines that came out the following month corrected that oversight.
> 
> Even getting gouged by the porn payment providers isn't a solution, because Mastercard leaned on them again towards the end of the year. EFF helped with the non-commercial site that was threatened, but hasn't shown any enthusiasm for the root of the problem.


Yeah it's not like writers with more money and clout than me haven't tried to do things to fight back on these issues. It's very difficult and there's no 'plug and play' solution. To establish a viable option for readers, we would need heavy investment and lots of lawyers to navigate all the limits placed on erotic content. Way above the pay grade of even the millionaire writers in the erotica genre.

M


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Most of what I have read here tells us what Amazon can do to help suppliers. I suspect Amazon is far more interested in what helps Amazon. Every business defines its scope. It decides what it will produce, sell, and buy. It defines its territory, marketing strategy, and risk parameters. The notion that any business benefits by simply expanding its scope, and is harmed by reducing its scope is false.

Likewise, there is no reason to believe that what other businesses do is good for a specific business.



> The dampening of Select's value proposition is a symptom of that as well, I think.


The fact that Select enrollment continues to increase indicates lots authors see value in Select. These folks are voting with their feet.



> Unless we see changes to the contrary, my current sense is that Amazon views indies as a market they can start to take for granted.


I suspect they take Random House for granted. Who isnt selling on Amazon?


----------



## Kiki Wellington

superfictious said:


> It would probably have to be a heavyweight like Selena Kitt, and I know she's voiced frustrations in the past about Amazon's arbitrary policy changes.


I was thinking the same thing. I don't know if anyone else has, but I reached out to her and asked her if this is something she would be willing to do.


----------



## Lia

zandermarks said:


> I for one am not convinced that it's paranoia. My gut feel is that Amazon is moving towards its own labels+Big 5 and away from viewing indies as a market they need to fight for. The dampening of Select's value proposition is a symptom of that as well, I think. Unless we see changes to the contrary, my current sense is that Amazon views indies as a market they can start to take for granted.


I have to agree with this.

Once upon a time, there was a site called eHow. Some freelance writers I knew put up these little "how-to" articles and got paid for ad clicks. Some of them really made bank, especially the ones with good SEO skills, to the tune of $2,500 a month and even more. But eventually, TPTB that ran the site got too many complaints about shoddy and duplicate content and started what were called "sweeps". First it was "poorly-written articles." That took care of the quality issues somewhat. But then it was "duplicate/similar titles." eHow writers started to freak out, only to be *assured by TPTB* that eHow wasn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Months later, TPTB finally bought out everyone who had well-earning articles, and the whole program went kaput.

I had tossed up a few articles just to test/flex my SEO skills, so I had no vested interest in eHow. But a lot of people I knew relied on it for a substantial part of their monthly income. Mind you, some of these people had blogged about "Oh, eHow is just the bestest, and just about anyone can do it!", and it reminds me of some indie authors who are really loud about how very successful they are on Amazon.

I can well see Amazon doing something like eHow, given the rumblings I've heard -- and now this. Not to say that there won't be other avenues for us indies, but we'll have to really compete for visibility.


----------



## mrv01d

I don't think it's paranoia either, but I don't want to derail the thread too much further. I suspect the way forward is going hybrid, which I dread because I am not the fastest writer on the planet. Perhaps I'll go into developmental editing, I've been told I'm good at that.

M


----------



## D.L. Shutter

> It would probably have to be a heavyweight like Selena Kitt, and I know she's voiced frustrations in the past about Amazon's arbitrary policy chang


Or Summer Daniels. I don't know how many of the +50K followers (or is it likes?) of her WTRA50SOG FB page are writers but if it's even a tenth that's still 5 thousand. I bet if she pushed this she could have thousands of signatures in days if not hours. She's been a huge help for so many erotica writer's.


----------



## Maya Cross

I had a discussion with two people very highly placed in B&N about this issue in the Nook store. I mentioned the idea of an adult filter, and their response was basically, 'People don't use filters. All of our research shows that whichever way we apply a filter, the bulk of readers won't shift from the default'. I personally feel like an adult filter would only hurt my sales if it's on by default, and I can't see how it could help anyone except those with books in the adult dungeon. Right now, everyone can see your books. With a filter, less than everyone could see them, but those that do would still see every book. From a business perspective, all it does is lower your visibility.

I also wonder where you draw the line. In a situation with infinite degrees of sexiness, it's really difficult to be arbitrary about what qualifies as adult. There are tons of books that would be riding the knife's edge between romance and erotica, and it's likely to cause a massive shitstorm for every book that isn't obviously explicit or non explicit. I also wonder how things like also boughts would work.


----------



## D.L. Shutter

> I'm here - happy to do it.


Well, this will be interesting to watch.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> I had a discussion with two people very highly placed in B&N about this issue in the Nook store. I mentioned the idea of an adult filter, and their response was basically, 'People don't use filters. All of our research shows that whichever way we apply a filter, the bulk of readers won't shift from the default'.


Reminds me of the V-Chip. Anyone know how to use it?


----------



## Daizie

MegHarris said:


> Absolutely. If they do a filter like this, erotica authors need to use it, and to correctly label their stuff "adult." If they don't, then Amazon should lower the ban hammer. But honestly, I don't think many erotica authors would have a problem with their stuff being labeled "adult"-- as Diana & Lacey pointed out, it would actually help sales in many cases. The reason people are ducking the "adult" filter isn't because they have a problem with their stuff being labeled adult, but because it's implemented erratically, and because it makes your book really hard to find in and sort of cheats by making casual readers think your book isn't on Amazon at all. If Amazon consistently put adult books into an adult area, it'd be easier for people who want them to find them. Of course there will still be people who try to avoid it, but that can be remedied pretty easily by warning/freezing of accounts, I think.


But what about Erotic Romance or explicit NA? Should that be under the adult filter?


----------



## Daizie

emilycantore said:


> I think we need to wikileak this situation and put out a general call for a current Amazon reviewer (or someone recently employed there) to spill the beans and tell us how it really works.
> 
> Details like:
> 
> Where the office is
> How many people work there
> How the decisions are made
> What meetings are held
> What training materials are used (and can we get a hold of them)
> Inflow/outflow of employees
> How new employees are trained
> Where complaints go
> 
> and so on...
> 
> Finding out and publishing this information might do more than anything else. It's like the B&N fiasco where they were adding 10,000 in sales rank to keep bestselling erotica titles off the front page - in the end there was no evidence from someone inside the company. Surely with so many employees the community can find one person to anonymously come forward to talk about it.


I think they have to sign a non-disclosure agreement about business operations.


----------



## MegHarris

> But what about Erotic Romance or explicit NA? Should that be under the adult filter?


I would put erotic romance under a filter but not "steamy" romance, personally. How to define the limits would obviously be the big issue. But the details of how to do it would clearly be up to Amazon-- and I'm sure no matter how they do it, many of us would disagree with it. Still seems preferable to random, unknowable, unpublished "guidelines" to me, though.


----------



## Avis Black

One of these days some indie author is going to write a porn novel, and Amazon will ban it.  But it will sell like Fifty Shades of Grey on B&N and Kobo, and the angst in the Amazon boardroom will be a schadenfreude-filled delight for erotica writers.  

All Amazon is doing with this policy is helping their competitors at their own expense.


----------



## ChadMck

By a show of hands how many of us smut peddlers have seen any books blocked with the aforementioned purge? I keep waiting to hear my phone ding with an email informing me my dream is over, but nothing yet. 

I think straight to the point, no bones about it, belly button bumping erotica is a powder keg waiting to blow. I just wonder if it will happen like a guillotine or a 1,000 little cuts, bleeding us out slowly. 

Probably a good time to start writing romantic comedies??


----------



## ghostwriter80

ChadMck said:


> By a show of hands how many of us smut peddlers have seen any books blocked with the aforementioned purge? I keep waiting to hear my phone ding with an email informing me my dream is over, but nothing yet.
> 
> I think straight to the point, no bones about it, belly button bumping erotica is a powder keg waiting to blow. I just wonder if it will happen like a guillotine or a 1,000 little cuts, bleeding us out slowly.
> 
> Probably a good time to start writing romantic comedies??


I had 106 individual titles blocked yesterday.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell

Honestly, the real issue here is and always has been the guidelines.  That more than anything else is what we need changed.  Clear, firm guidelines that don't leave room for doubt what is and isn't allowed - and if what's allowed changes, then the guidelines need to change accordingly.

Everything else is manageable, because we can adapt to accommodate a known issue.  Having no idea which variable is responsible for removal or barring of our content - that's the part that will continue to cause problems no matter what else is changed.


----------



## Vaalingrade

The problem is that Amazon is so entrenched in its love of black boxing everything and never showing anyone how they work that they seem to be baffled--baffled, I tell you--by all these people wanting explanations and clear guidelines for their ebook service _with completely open entry_.

This is like if when McDonalds started driving into the coffee-to-go business, they couldn't comprehend why people might want sugar or creamer. 'zon, this is your job now. No one told you to have a wide open system, but now that you have it you actually have to, you know, tend it.


----------



## Speaker-To-Animals

> Reminds me of the V-Chip. Anyone know how to use it?


Menu / Parent

Couldn't be easier. The issue isn't difficulty it's disinterest.


----------



## Maya Cross

If there was a filter on by default, I'm absolutely certain everyone who writes anything trapped behind it will see a big drop in sales. People tend to take the quickest route through any shopping experience, and if they're just searching for their next read, the bulk won't bother to turn the filter off, since they can find something to satisfy them anyway. It's not that they don't want to read explicit stuff, it's just that they read a variety and will be just as happy with something that Amazon shows them with minimal effort.

The only people who benefit from a checkbox style filter are those writing taboo stuff that currently gets hit with the adult filter.


----------



## LeonardDHilleyII

I don't know about anyone else, but I have actually seen covers with full nudity, too.  A couple of the books were by Lawrence Block.  Is this ban only for those being in the KDP Select?


----------



## MegHarris

> If there was a filter on by default, I'm absolutely certain everyone who writes anything trapped behind it will see a big drop in sales. People tend to take the quickest route through any shopping experience, and if they're just searching for their next read, the bulk won't bother to turn the filter off, since they can find something to satisfy them anyway.


Maybe, maybe not. A good many people are looking actively for hot stuff. A filter might actually help people find it. I'd far rather have a filter that was off by default, though. If not it would need to be very visible, which may defeat the purpose as far as parents are concerned. It's hard to figure out how to turn off Google "safe search," for example. I wouldn't like to see Amazon bury the switch somewhere-- few people would bother to turn it on in that case.



> The only people who benefit from a checkbox style filter are those writing taboo stuff that currently gets hit with the adult filter.


Right now, the "taboo stuff" is what gets filtered. But tomorrow Amazon could get complaints on other stuff and start filtering that, too. When kids can see sexy books in a search, there are always going to be complaints. I suspect we all may benefit from an on/off switch in the long haul, because it will make knee-jerk reactions and sweeping bans on Amazon's part less likely. But there's no denying that the devil is in the details. It would depend on how it was implemented, and given Amazon's handling of the "adult dungeon" I don't exactly trust them to implement a system that benefits authors.


----------



## KerryT2012

I just showed it to someone and it ihas been removed. What is going on?


----------



## KMatthew

The last two titles I published got banned as well, but they were both taboo titles. Oddly enough, I reuploaded all of my books yesterday to include a link to my new website, and none of those got banned, some of which were also taboo titles. I have quite a few titles that I could have seen getting the banhammer, but they didn't. I truly don't understand what's going on over at the Zon sometimes.


----------



## Guest

Perhaps we should return to the days of the "Plain Brown Wrapper"

The books would be titled Plain Brown Wrapper, Plain Brown Wrapper 2, Plain Brown Wrapper 3, etc.

Figure out how many pages Amazon would present in the preview. The only text on the preview pages would be "You must be an adult to read this book"


----------



## Guest

Selena_Kitt said:


> I'm here - happy to do it.
> 
> I have a contact at Amazon's "Executive Customer Service" (such as it is) I can take it to. She's actually quite receptive to new ideas - they implemented the "cover, title, blurb or content" response when we appeal the adult filter because of something I suggested to her, so there's always a possibility they MIGHT listen. Maybe.
> 
> Anyway, I'm in.


Selena if I can help in any way, let me know. But I suspect you are more than capable of making your point clear!


----------



## KMatthew

Well, 5 more of my titles just got hit with the Kindle ban . . . and the funny thing is that two of them weren't even erotica, nor did they have racy covers. Interesting.


----------



## RaeC

KMatthew said:


> Well, 5 more of my titles just got hit with the Kindle ban . . . and the funny thing is that two of them weren't even erotica, nor did they have racy covers. Interesting.


What genre were they?


----------



## daringnovelist

KMatthew said:


> Well, 5 more of my titles just got hit with the Kindle ban . . . and the funny thing is that two of them weren't even erotica, nor did they have racy covers. Interesting.


Could they have titles or keywords that could be misunderstood?


----------



## Maya Cross

MegHarris said:


> Maybe, maybe not. A good many people are looking actively for hot stuff. A filter might actually help people find it. I'd far rather have a filter that was off by default, though. If not it would need to be very visible, which may defeat the purpose as far as parents are concerned. It's hard to figure out how to turn off Google "safe search," for example. I wouldn't like to see Amazon bury the switch somewhere-- few people would bother to turn it on in that case.


An adult filter is never going to help people find anything. It's not going to be a filter that ONLY displays adult content. If it was implemented, it would be a filter that just adds the adult content to everything else in the store, ie: the situation that currently exists. They have genres etc to help people who want to only look at erotica. So right now, everyone sees everything. If there was a filter, only some people would see everything, which means less visibility. It's not a win for anyone writing erotic romance, or anything remotely on the fence.


----------



## Nihilist

Diana & Lacey said:


> I had another book blocked today and the email came from Carlos F...again. Other writers have noticed that most of the banned book notification emails are coming from him. I'd be curious to know if the randomness is due to a handful of over-zealous reviewers. If anyone is contacting their contact at Amazon, this might be worth mentioning.


Yeah, Carlos F. and Leigh W. Are the two people who banned five titles of mine before they ever saw the light of day. I managed to get them through with more careful wording, but sales are WAY down now that I can't say they are pseudo incest, and returns are WAY up. It sucks, because people who don't want my stuff are finding it and returning with staggering rates, and (I'm assuming) people who want my stuff aren't finding me since I can't say Daddy or Brother without getting blocked.

*Sigh* Come on, Amazon, people like dirty smut. It makes money. It sells. That's okay. Just like it's okay your bottom line benefits from it, even if you don't want to admit it.

Anywho, don't mind the drunk Irish girl. Cheers.


----------



## daringnovelist

Maya Cross said:


> An adult filter is never going to help people find anything. It's not going to be a filter that ONLY displays adult content. If it was implemented, it would be a filter that just adds the adult content to everything else in the store, ie: the situation that currently exists. They have genres etc to help people who want to only look at erotica. So right now, everyone sees everything. If there was a filter, only some people would see everything, which means less visibility. It's not a win for anyone writing erotic romance, or anything remotely on the fence.


Yeah, I think what could help more would to be literally create an "adult dungeon" -- like a separate store where people can intentionally go browse. (And better yet would be if there is an overlap, where some milder books could be listed in both places.)

Another thing that could be done is a kind of plain brown wrapper: as long as books didn't have offensive titles, they could still come up in any search, but with truncated details (such as super-explicit covers being hidden) and an "explicit" tag which requires an extra click to get the full details.

This could potentially create a "Gypsy Rose Lee" affect. Currently people looking for something else might flinch away from erotica that shows up instead -- but if there's nothing to flinch at, curiosity clicks in.

But, no matter what happens, I think erotica writers are just going to have to get used to the fact that easy unfiltered exposure is just not going to continue. Ten years ago, on the web, you couldn't do any searching without getting porn pages. Now you can easily find it if you want it, but it won't show up if you're not looking for it. Websites can't count on accidents any more.

Camille


----------



## Zenferno

I had a couple of titles blocked just over a week ago, both by the infamous Carlos F.  I actually felt a little paranoid at first that he had it in for me, as ridiculous as that may sound.  I resubmitted one of my titles after I'd completely sanitized it - boring title, modest picture and sterile blurb - and it still didn't get through.  After that I gave up all hope of writing in the sub-genre.  Even if you could squeak a book through, you basically can't use the title, a sexy pic or blurb to promote it properly.


----------



## Paranormal Piper

Too bad readers don't seem very interested in Smashwords. PI (and everything else under the sun) is displayed loud and proud there. As it stands, I'm probably finished with PI. Easier to focus on niches that don't require this intricate dance.


----------



## KMatthew

mjshaw said:


> I'm probably finished with PI. Easier to focus on niches that don't require this intricate dance.


Same. Glad I just got into it and don't have a whole bunch of PI titles like a lot of other people.

While I'm honestly not a fan of PI as a sub-genre, it does make lots of money. . . which is the only reason it surprises me that places like Amazon and All Romance Ebooks don't want it around. There's obviously a market for it and a lot of profit to be made. Besides, it's not like it's actual incest.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Vaalingrade said:


> The problem is that Amazon is so entrenched in its love of black boxing everything and never showing anyone how they work that they seem to be baffled--baffled, I tell you--by all these people wanting explanations and clear guidelines for their ebook service _with completely open entry_.
> 
> This is like if when McDonalds started driving into the coffee-to-go business, they couldn't comprehend why people might want sugar or creamer. 'zon, this is your job now. No one told you to have a wide open system, but now that you have it you actually have to, you know, tend it.


We can observe they choose to manage their system their way. They don't have to tend it another way. Its worked pretty well so far. People might want them to change, But they dont choose to obey.


----------



## Lizbooks

I can understand people being uncomfortable with their kids being able to find erotica on Amazon, but what about all the sex toys and machines? The pictures for those are pretty explicit and they can come up in random unrelated searches. Are they cracking down on those things too? Anyone know?


----------



## Honeybun

Has anyone had any luck selling directly from their website in the various format options so that they have full control over the content and picture?  I have been out of the game for awhile--barely writing, barely publishing--but I'm trying to work on getting my schedule back in working order so that I can move forward again.  I'm trying to think of options.  It's disheartening to think that I might have to pour my preciously small amount of time into a project just to have it banned by Amazon.


----------



## Michael Murray

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> Has anyone had any luck selling directly from their website in the various format options so that they have full control over the content and picture? I have been out of the game for awhile--barely writing, barely publishing--but I'm trying to work on getting my schedule back in working order so that I can move forward again. I'm trying to think of options. It's disheartening to think that I might have to pour my preciously small amount of time into a project just to have it banned by Amazon.


Hmm, one thing that might work is selling (or permafreeing) some less racy works on Amazon, with links in them of the "click here to buy the books that are banned from Amazon." That way the books on Amazon act as lead ins to your wilder stuff .


----------



## Honeybun

Michael Murray said:


> Hmm, one thing that might work is selling (or permafreeing) some less racy works on Amazon, with links in them of the "click here to buy the books that are banned from Amazon." That way the books on Amazon act as lead ins to your wilder stuff .


I think that sounds like a good idea, Michael. The first in a series, written more tamely but setting the stage, could be put out at 99 cents or permafree with a link back to the website. And, because all the of the royalties would be ours, we could potentially sell for less. I'm really just thinking out loud... I don't see me doing the work to set such a thing up any time soon.


----------



## Honeybun

I'm feeling a little confused.  I took a look at the erotica top 100 list (for purchase) and then I took a look at the top 100 list that is set for free.  WOW!  Big difference!  The titles/covers on the for-sale list are shockingly (and disturbingly?) tame but the titles/covers on the free list are still much more racy.  They are not as hard core racy as I have seen them, but they are much more racy and more than one has a direct play on daddy stuff in the title -- very openly PI.  And, the covers are showing a lot of skin or sexy couple poses.

Anybody have any thoughts about it, the contrast between what has gotten through on the paid 100 versus what hasn't gotten banned on the free 100?


----------



## daringnovelist

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> I'm feeling a little confused. I took a look at the erotica top 100 list (for purchase) and then I took a look at the top 100 list that is set for free. WOW! Big difference! The titles/covers on the for-sale list are shockingly (and disturbingly?) tame but the titles/covers on the free list are still much more racy. They are not as hard core racy as I have seen them, but they are much more racy and more than one has a direct play on daddy stuff in the title -- very openly PI. And, the covers are showing a lot of skin or sexy couple poses.
> 
> Anybody have any thoughts about it, the contrast between what has gotten through on the paid 100 versus what hasn't gotten banned on the free 100?


Hmmmmmm.

My only theory is that, since Amazon changed so that the freebies don't always show next to the paid books any more, maybe the paid lists are more likely to show up in wrong searches -- and thus get more complaints? Or it might have something to do with a cluster of authors who use permafree heavily, and don't necessarily do the pseudo-taboo stuff, and therefore Amazon just hasn't gotten to them yet.

I mean, I suspect that as soon as they find a taboo subject, that author is probably flagged. (Therefore, even though all authors will probably get hit sometime, authors that don't do as much taboo are more likely to stay under the radar longer.)

This really reminds me of what happened at eHow when the company started sweeping the articles for quality. Because it was a big job, there was a lot of uneven application, but they did eventually get to everything.

Camille


----------



## Annette_g

I don't have kids, so I may be finding this a bit strange. It seems that people are worried that kids might accidentally stumble on erotic stuff on amazon or wherever. I am surprised that kids are on the internet on their own in the first place, that just seems really weird to me. I know it happens, my nieces and nephews have their own iPads etc. and the youngest is 7. A 7 year old browsing the web on their own? That's a bit scary to me, but my brother just laughs it off.

I don't know if anyone else has heard of this bookstore:
http://www.ebook-eros.com/

That might be one to consider if we can't have erotic stuff at zon anymore. Not sure what their guidelines are regarding PI.


----------



## Duane Gundrum

Annette_g said:


> I don't have kids, so I may be finding this a bit strange. It seems that people are worried that kids might accidentally stumble on erotic stuff on amazon or wherever. I am surprised that kids are on the internet on their own in the first place, that just seems really weird to me. I know it happens, my nieces and nephews have their own iPads etc. and the youngest is 7. A 7 year old browsing the web on their own? That's a bit scary to me, but my brother just laughs it off.
> 
> I don't know if anyone else has heard of this bookstore:
> http://www.ebook-eros.com/
> 
> That might be one to consider if we can't have erotic stuff at zon anymore. Not sure what their guidelines are regarding PI.


Ebook-eros funnels stuff directly from Smashwords, so it's one of those "you're opted in unless you decided against it" so people are already listed on that if they went through Smashwords. It just isn't a huge seller for most people yet.


----------



## KaryE

Lizbooks said:


> I can understand people being uncomfortable with their kids being able to find erotica on Amazon, but what about all the sex toys and machines? The pictures for those are pretty explicit and they can come up in random unrelated searches. Are they cracking down on those things too? Anyone know?


In my many years of using Amazon for everything from soup to nuts, I've never had a sex toy or other sexual paraphernalia turn up in an innocent search. Garden equipment, patio furniture, kitchen stuff, assorted hardware - nada. Books? Happens pretty frequently. Not every time, but I'd say maybe once in four.


----------



## LBrent

This reminds me of when Yahoo, Google, Alta Vista and DMoz were all fighting over marketshare as THE search engine of choice. Adult Webmasters were able to get nearly any website listed. Then suddenly it got really difficult to get listed.

It's as if the search engines used porn searchers to build their businesses then as they got more sucessful they pretended it had all been organic and that porn sites were unacceptable to them.  

Sound familiar?


----------



## Guest

A question - 

If your books have been banned, will you receive your royalties?

Or will Amazon say sorry, you violated the terms of service.


----------



## cherrie

I've repackaged one book in the PI genre three times and it's been blocked each time. Yet I see several books that were published the same day that are as gross as My Big Black Daddy F#$ked me.  Oh come on!!!! how the hell can that get thru ? That was pubbed the 25th of this month.. and I saw book after book in that genre with titles that should have never gotten thru..  .. just do a search in A for PI and sort by: Publication day.. you will see newest PI titles that have been published.. 

Then I wonder, are they playing favorites.. ? Are different moderators all doing a different type of moderation? Hell, if we don't know, maybe the folks who work there don't know either.. maybe it's all too vague for everyone? 

I think we need to let the dust settle.. see what comes of all of this.. 
It sux for sure tho


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

I vote for creating new words to depict sexual acts, and using them in titles and blurbs.

FAFFED IN THE TUTU
(my next bestseller)


----------



## RaeC

If I had a guess, certain books catch the reviewer's eye, which causes that person to take a look at the author's entire listings and those of the titles' Also Boughts.  

I'm not even an erotica author (yet) but this really irks me since I can imagine a day coming when Amazon will respond, in a similarly inelegant manner, to customers who don't like those trashy self-pub romance, science fiction, and horror novels being listed with respectable trad pubs in an innocent search.


----------



## Nihilist

I had another book blocked by our friend Carlos F this morning. *sigh*

And here was I was excited to post my 40th book. Since the other book I have is still in review, I'm assuming it is only a matter of time before they block it too. 

/end pity party


----------



## RaeC

Alexia Stark said:


> I had another book blocked by our friend Carlos F this morning. *sigh*
> 
> And here was I was excited to post my 40th book. Since the other book I have is still in review, I'm assuming it is only a matter of time before they block it too.
> 
> /end pity party


What sub-genre, if I may ask?


----------



## Guest

Quote:
". . . creating new words to depict sexual acts"

In 1948 Norman Mailer faced Amazon type censorship with his book The Naked and the Dead.
He used the spelling "fug" it.

Noted wit Dorothy Parker contended that any writer worth his salt should know how to spell "f..k"


----------



## Nihilist

superfictious said:


> What sub-genre, if I may ask?


PI. It's my comfort zone. But I guess I need to find a new niche. And I'll write some new niche until they shut it down. lol. *shrug*


----------



## Gone To Croatan

Okey Dokey said:


> In 1948 Norman Mailer faced Amazon type censorship with his book The Naked and the Dead.
> He used the spelling "fug" it.


Robert Anton Wilson once replaced all the sexual terms in one of his books with the names of pro-censorship politicians.


----------



## RaeC

I really hope people can use the "Banned by Amazon" tag to sell a ton of books elsewhere.


----------



## MegHarris

> It seems that people are worried that kids might accidentally stumble on erotic stuff on amazon or wherever. I am surprised that kids are on the internet on their own in the first place, that just seems really weird to me. I know it happens, my nieces and nephews have their own iPads etc. and the youngest is 7. A 7 year old browsing the web on their own? That's a bit scary to me, but my brother just laughs it off.


Totally agree with you there. I have kids, and I don't let them browse the internet alone till their mid-teen years, and even then we try to keep the lines of communication open so we can discuss anything they run across that is puzzling or upsetting to them. I'm not even a particularly protective mom; I am just very aware of what can be found on the internet. I worry less about an Amazon search than I do about fanfic or Tumblr or even YouTube. Little kids really shouldn't be running around unsupervised on the internet. But the fact remains that parents let them do it, and then when they suddenly discover what the kid has been looking at, they will freak out. They then go screaming to Amazon in protest. But even if the kids are supervised, some covers that can come up in an innocent search (or some hits on Google) can be an upsetting surprise to some parents, who don't always realize exactly what's out there.


----------



## MsTee

A few things:

*1. There are other stores for authors to sell their work on. A quick list:*

- Smashwords: http://www.smashwords.com

- Excessica: http://www.excessica.com/books/

- All Romance Ebooks: http://www.allromanceebooks.com/

- Extasy Books: http://www.extasybooks.com/

- Soltice Publishing: http://store.solsticepublishing.com/solstice-at-night/

^ I'm not sure which ones allow self-pubbing, but there's a list. However, while they seem to have a sizeable list, I'm concerned by how dated (except All Romance Ebooks and Extasy Books) they all look. Could that be a problem why authors and readers aren't gravitating to them more? And I read on another forum that perhaps readers DON'T want to go to separate sites because by doing so, it is publicly confirming that they're after Erotica (smut!) whereas if they get their latest smut-fix on Amazon, they don't feel AS guilty (perhaps pretending that while looking for a new gardening hose, they ACCIDENTALLY came upon that tentacle billionaire vampire porny tale that's now on their Kindle  ).

*2. Author faithfulness*

There have been suggestions (I've made one, too) that someone jump in and fill the gap for Erotica, but will authors be faithful to that store? What if after a year or so, Amazon decides, 'Ah f*#k it. We'll be open about selling smutty books!'? I've a suspicion authors will promptly abandon the store that filled the gap and move back to Amazon. 

*3. For authors wanting to sell their books on their own sites, it is incredibly simple:*

- Prior to purchase of the book, inform the reader to create a 'Send to Kindle' email address for the Kindle reading device of choice (only applies to phones and e-readers, not PC)

- Upon purchase of the book, provide a box where the reader can supply their Send to Kindle email address

- Email the book to the reader. It will be available on the reader's device like a regular book.


^ No longer viable. This is why: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201124320


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> I'm not even an erotica author (yet) but this really irks me since I can imagine a day coming when Amazon will respond, in a similarly inelegant manner, to customers who don't like those trashy self-pub romance, science fiction, and horror novels being listed with respectable trad pubs in an innocent search.


If Amazon determined that would better serve their consumer base and make more money, I suspect they would indeed respond.


----------



## Annette_g

sarbonn said:


> Ebook-eros funnels stuff directly from Smashwords, so it's one of those "you're opted in unless you decided against it" so people are already listed on that if they went through Smashwords. It just isn't a huge seller for most people yet.


Ah, I was wondering why some of my books were on there, LOL! Now I know


----------



## Skye Hunter

So it seems like they're mostly banning things that can be obviously identified as the type of stuff they don't want to sell anymore(PI, Tentacle stuff, etc.). Is that right or has anyone had stuff banned that didn't have overly offensive covers and/or titles that identify the story as such(using daddy, mommy, sister, tentacle, etc. in titles/description)?


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

MsTee said:


> *3. For authors wanting to sell their books on their own sites, it is incredibly simple:*
> 
> - Prior to purchase of the book, inform the reader to create a 'Send to Kindle' email address for the Kindle reading device of choice (only applies to phones and e-readers, not PC)
> 
> - Upon purchase of the book, provide a box where the reader can supply their Send to Kindle email address
> 
> - Email the book to the reader. It will be available on the reader's device like a regular book.


To clarify--people don't have to create a "send to Kindle" address for their Kindles. An email address is automatically generated for each device registered to the account. What people would have to do before hand, though, is "whitelist" the email address the book is going to be mailed from. The reader would have to go to Manage Your Kindle > Personal Documents Settings > Approved Personal Document E-Mail List and add the email as an approved email-address. This is done as a spam-preventing measure.

Betsy

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk 2


----------



## LBrent

MsTee said:


> *3. For authors wanting to sell their books on their own sites, it is incredibly simple:*
> 
> - Prior to purchase of the book, inform the reader to create a 'Send to Kindle' email address for the Kindle reading device of choice (only applies to phones and e-readers, *not PC*)
> 
> - Upon purchase of the book, provide a box where the reader can supply their Send to Kindle email address
> 
> - Email the book to the reader. It will be available on the reader's device like a regular book.


Actually, this does apply to PCs/laptops, too. I've sent non-Kindle documents (my personal documents such as PDFs, etc) *from* my laptop to my Kindle4PC on my laptop using this exact method. It's very simple.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

LBrent said:


> Actually, this does apply to PCs/laptops, too. I've sent non-Kindle documents (my personal documents such as PDFs, etc) *from* my laptop to my Kindle4PC on my laptop using this exact method. It's very simple.


Well, to clarify again, there's a "Send to Kindle" app that you can install on a PC; this will let you send documents on the PC to your Kindle archive or any of your own devices registered to your account. [edited to correct]

This is different than what Ms. Tee was talking about; which was sending documents to a specific Kindle device, though those docs, I believe, are also available in the archive. (Ann will be by in a while, I'm sure, to further clarify anything I've muddled; she uses this far more than I do.) EDIT: These documents can be sent from someone outside of the account, as long as the "from" address is whitelisted, as I described below.

Each registered device has a unique email address (which by default is something like [email protected]; this can be changed by the account owner). As far as I can tell by checking my own account, apps do not have an email address associated with them.

Betsy


----------



## LBrent

Something to note about this feature is that since AZon allows ANY document that resides on your computer to be uploaded to your Kindle/Kindle4PC using Send2Kindle, it can't be readily blocked.

AZon never sees the document. No way for them to censure. it's a private transaction between you and your Kindle/Kindle4PC.

The only hitch would be driving traffic directly to your own website so potential readers know where to find your stuff. 

Makes it more important than ever to have a mailing list now to send periodic notices about new releases, huh?


----------



## LBrent

Betsy,
I don't have a Kindle but when I had to register my Kindle4PC app they asked for an email to connect to the account. That's the email I sent stuff to with Send to Kindle. I only had to make the documents into PDFs.

This could be a good thing for erotica writers. Higher profit margins, no?


----------



## cinisajoy

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Well, to clarify again, there's a "Send to Kindle" app that you can install on a PC; this will let you send documents on the PC to your Kindle app and your personal archive where they would be available to your other devices.
> 
> This is different than what Ms. Tee was talking about; which was sending documents to a specific Kindle device, though those docs, I believe, are also available in the archive. (Ann will be by in a while, I'm sure, to further clarify anything I've muddled; she uses this far more than I do.)
> 
> Each registered device has a unique email address (which by default is something like [email protected]; this can be changed by the account owner). As far as I can tell by checking my own account, apps do not have an email address associated with them.
> 
> Betsy


What Betsy is saying is that if I want to send a document to her kindle, she has to approve my email address or it will get returned.

If I want something on my K4PC, I just give the person my regular email address and when I open the file, it automatically goes to K4PC.
If I want something sent to my kindle, I first have to go to Amazon Manage my kindle and add the other person's email address then give them my kindle email address. (Well now whichever kindle I want to send it too.)


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

LBrent said:


> Betsy,
> I don't have a Kindle but when I had to register my Kindle4PC app they asked for an email to connect to the account. That's the email I sent stuff to with Send to Kindle. I only had to make the documents into PDFs.
> 
> This could be a good thing for erotica writers. Higher profit margins, no?


Yes, because even your own email address has to be whitelisted on your account; but you cannot use Send to Kindle to send documents to other people's devices. If you look at the options when you send a document, the only options are the devices on your own account and your archive.

Betsy


----------



## cinisajoy

LBrent said:


> Betsy,
> I don't have a Kindle but when I had to register my Kindle4PC they asked for an email to connect to the account. That's the email I sent stuff to with Send to Kindle. I only had to make the documents into PDFs.
> 
> This could be a good thing for erotica writers. Higher profit margins, no?


My K4PC they never asked for an email address. Amazon creates the addresses for kindles. You do have to have an email address for your amazon account.
My K4PC does mobi and azw files not pdfs.


----------



## MsTee

Betsy the Quilter said:


> To clarify--people don't have to create a "send to Kindle" address for their Kindles. An email address is automatically generated for each device registered to the account. What people would have to do before hand, though, is "whitelist" the email address the book is going to be mailed from. The reader would have to go to Manage Your Kindle > Personal Documents Settings > Approved Personal Document E-Mail List and add the email as an approved email-address. This is done as a spam-preventing measure.
> 
> Betsy
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk 2


Yes, that's true. They assign you an email, but you are free to change it to one that you prefer. 



LBrent said:


> Actually, this does apply to PCs/laptops, too. I've sent non-Kindle documents (my personal documents such as PDFs, etc) *from* my laptop to my Kindle4PC on my laptop using this exact method. It's very simple.


No, I don't think the Send to Kindle feature I was talking about can send documents to the PC app. What I'm talking about is the author would have their .mobi or .azw book file on their web server, and once the reader has paid for it, the author will email the file to the reader's Send to Kindle email address. From there, it's up to the reader to have it synced to their PC.



LBrent said:


> Something to note about this feature is that since AZon allows ANY document that resides on your computer to be uploaded to your Kindle/Kindle4PC using Send2Kindle, it can't be readily blocked.
> 
> AZon never sees the document. No way for them to censure. it's a private transaction between you and your Kindle/Kindle4PC.
> 
> The only hitch would be driving traffic directly to your own website so potential readers know where to find your stuff.
> 
> Makes it more important than ever to have a mailing list now to send periodic notices about new releases, huh?


That is the beauty of the Send to Kindle feature. What's more, I specifically asked Amazon about using the Send to Kindle feature for non-Amazon paid content and the rep I spoke to said that it is allowed. HOWEVER, the Send to Kindle BUTTON is not allowed to be used for non-Amazon paid content - please be careful with that.

Yes, Erotica authors will have to become more creative if they want to see some progress. I think, too, that if authors pooled their resources, it won't seem like such an uphill battle. Better to fight in numbers.


----------



## LBrent

Ohhh. 

I thought during the document download the buyer would be able to download the book & send it to their ereader. You mean more of a "one step" approach. I misunderstood. My bad.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

MsTee said:


> Yes, that's true. They assign you an email, but you are free to change it to one that you prefer.


My main point was that the "From" address has to be whitelisted on the member's account, or the document will not be accepted as a direct send to the account.

Betsy


----------



## LBrent

Unfortunately, my dyslexic brain always goes for the more complicated route. Lol


----------



## daringnovelist

If you're going to email a doc anyway, why not send email with an attached mobi file (or format of choice for nook users), so the person can do what they like with it.  That would bypass  Amazon altogether. (Amazon DOES keep those emailed personal documents in your Kindle cloud online, you know.  Check your "Manage my Kindle" and you'll find them all there.)

I can imagine it would be a nice service to offer to help people get files onto their Apple devices (which are a PITA to get personal files onto), but far from necessary.

Another thing to check out: there are services like eJunkie, which for a low fee (I think it was like a flat $5 a month last i looked) will give you hard disk space, and a shopping cart so that your customer can buy stuff off your site, but they manage the shopping cart and downloads and access issues.  I don't know, however, if they have restrictions on what can be sold.

I think that most places (and this is a part of why Amazon is hitting the pseudo-taboo topics) have rules against selling things that are illegal in some of the territories they serve.  They don't want to have to vet this stuff that seems to be pushing the boundary -- but some are more concerned than others.

And that will apply to your ISP as well as to any vendor.  So even selling off your own site still gets you into a judgement call by someone else as to what they want on their site.

Camille


----------



## MsTee

LBrent said:


> Ohhh.
> 
> I thought during the document download the buyer would be able to download the book & send it to their ereader. You mean more of a "one step" approach. I misunderstood. My bad.


Nah, that's OK.  Yeah, one-step is nice and easy. It'll resemble the experience of purchasing ebooks on Amazon...somewhat.



Betsy the Quilter said:


> My main point was that the "From" address has to be whitelisted on the member's account, or the document will not be accepted as a direct send to the account.
> 
> Betsy


Yes, I went to fiddle in my Manage Your Kindle area and noticed you need to whitelist the emails. Thank you for reminding me. 



daringnovelist said:


> If you're going to email a doc anyway, why not send email with an attached mobi file (or format of choice for nook users), so the person can do what they like with it. That would bypass Amazon altogether. (Amazon DOES keep those emailed personal documents in your Kindle cloud online, you know. Check your "Manage my Kindle" and you'll find them all there.)
> 
> I can imagine it would be a nice service to offer to help people get files onto their Apple devices (which are a PITA to get personal files onto), but far from necessary.
> 
> Another thing to check out: there are services like eJunkie, which for a low fee (I think it was like a flat $5 a month last i looked) will give you hard disk space, and a shopping cart so that your customer can buy stuff off your site, but they manage the shopping cart and downloads and access issues. I don't know, however, if they have restrictions on what can be sold.
> 
> I think that most places (and this is a part of why Amazon is hitting the pseudo-taboo topics) have rules against selling things that are illegal in some of the territories they serve. They don't want to have to vet this stuff that seems to be pushing the boundary -- but some are more concerned than others.
> 
> And that will apply to your ISP as well as to any vendor. So even selling off your own site still gets you into a judgement call by someone else as to what they want on their site.
> 
> Camille


Camille, using the Send to Kindle feature will be far superior than just emailing the document. What the StK feature does is remove the hassle of side-loading documents. Once you've emailed the .mobi or .azw file, it shows up on the users device BOTH as a document they can remove and as a book they can read...which will sync across devices, too!

Yes, eJunkie is another alternative for authors. Here is a list of sites where you can just upload stuff and not have to worry about the more technical aspects of handling purchases: http://www.siteslike.com/similar/e-junkie.com. I recommend 'ecwid' (http://www.ecwid.com/). I've never used them, but I've heard good things.


----------



## LBrent

True, but by using vendors traditionally geared towards Adult Webmasters, since concerns of those types have already been addressed (dealing with hosts for adult content, legal concerns, etc) the road can be smoother, no?


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

daringnovelist said:


> If you're going to email a doc anyway, why not send email with an attached mobi file (or format of choice for nook users), so the person can do what they like with it. That would bypass Amazon altogether. (Amazon DOES keep those emailed personal documents in your Kindle cloud online, you know. Check your "Manage my Kindle" and you'll find them all there.


And that would be desirable to many people; it gives them the ability to read the document on the device they're using at the time. People send a lot of personal stuff to their archives; at leaast I do, things like airline ticket and hotel reservation information, and I trust my archives to be private. Maybe I'm a dreamer...

Betsy


----------



## Guest

Lizbooks said:


> I can understand people being uncomfortable with their kids being able to find erotica on Amazon, but what about all the sex toys and machines? The pictures for those are pretty explicit and they can come up in random unrelated searches. Are they cracking down on those things too? Anyone know?


As I already said, in over ten years as an Amazon customer, I have never accidentally stumbled across a sex toy while looking for something else. _Never_. And I spends thousands of dollars a year on Amazon. I have, however, accidentally stumbled across erotica while looking for books in other genres. And in those cases, it has always been indie books, not trade books, that this has happened with.

Again, I'm not blaming indies. I think it is the way Amazon has KDP set up that adult titles can't be properly categorized to begin with. I think it is an issue with the way Amazon processes metadata on indie books.

This issue I believe most people have is not that you can find erotica on Amazon if you look for it. The problem is that you can find erotica on Amazon when you DON'T look for it. Believe me, there is nothing quite as embarrassing as having your manager sitting next to you while you make a mundane book search. i.e. "Oh, I bet Amazon has a book on breastfeeding for your cousin! Oh...um...what is..."  (true story)


----------



## MsTee

Ugh. I did some digging. No, you're NOT allowed to use the Send to Kindle feature as a form of distribution.

Link to TOU: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201124320



> *No Commercial or Illegal Use*
> 
> You may not charge directly or indirectly to distribute content via the Service. You may not use the Service to send infringing, unauthorized, or otherwise illegal content.


I more annoyed by that Amazon rep that said it was OK in the first place. 

Sorry, guys, for the misinformation.


----------



## cinisajoy

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> As I already said, in over ten years as an Amazon customer, I have never accidentally stumbled across a sex toy while looking for something else. _Never_. And I spends thousands of dollars a year on Amazon. I have, however, accidentally stumbled across erotica while looking for books in other genres. And in those cases, it has always been indie books, not trade books, that this has happened with.
> 
> Again, I'm not blaming indies. I think it is the way Amazon has KDP set up that adult titles can't be properly categorized to begin with. I think it is an issue with the way Amazon processes metadata on indie books.
> 
> This issue I believe most people have is not that you can find erotica on Amazon if you look for it. The problem is that you can find erotica on Amazon when you DON'T look for it. Believe me, there is nothing quite as embarrassing as having your manager sitting next to you while you make a mundane book search. i.e. "Oh, I bet Amazon has a book on breastfeeding for your cousin! Oh...um...what is..."  (true story)


You don't even have to be looking for books to find erotica. Searches for Halloween vampires and Game of Thrones both brought up erotica on the first page. This was in All.


----------



## Nihilist

cinisajoy said:


> You don't even have to be looking for books to find erotica. Searches for Halloween vampires and Game of Thrones both brought up erotica on the first page. This was in All.


And those books should be blocked. There are a lot of us who are responsible. I don't want people who wont like my stuff to come across it. I'll gladly get zero visibility under the adult filter before I miss-tag my work to 'surprise' people. But treating all (niche) erotica writers as villains and blocking entire sub-genres that obviously have demand seems like a bad business move. But I'm looking at it from the point of view of an author who stands to lose income, so I'm sure I'm biased.


----------



## cinisajoy

Alexia Stark said:


> And those books should be blocked. There are a lot of us who are responsible. I don't want people who wont like my stuff to come across it. I'll gladly get zero visibility under the adult filter before I miss-tag my work to 'surprise' people. But treating all (niche) erotica writers as villains and blocking entire sub-genres that obviously have demand seems like a bad business move. But I'm looking at it from the point of view of an author who stands to lose income, so I'm sure I'm biased.


Quickie search today in Erotica pulled up over 1100 books of daddy daughter taboo. So why are they banning some and not others.


----------



## Nihilist

cinisajoy said:


> Quickie search today in Erotica pulled up over 1100 books of daddy daughter taboo. So why are they banning some and not others.


That's a good question. I had assumed it was because they have not gotten around to blocking all back titles, but there are new books coming out every day with titles including daddy, bother, sister and mother that don't get blocked. So it seems like some kind of favoritism, which brings me back to the fact that every time I'm blocked, it's from the same reviewer.

But I'm one tiny tadpole in the huge lake of erotica, so this is pure speculation and likely wrong. *shrug*


----------



## daringnovelist

MsTee said:


> Ugh. I did some digging. No, you're NOT allowed to use the Send to Kindle feature as a form of distribution.
> 
> Link to TOU: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201124320
> 
> I more annoyed by that Amazon rep that said it was OK in the first place.
> 
> Sorry, guys, for the misinformation.


However, if the customers buy a mobi file from you, THEY can send it to their own Kindle via email. (Note, for some reason I thought we couldn't send mobi files, only .doc and .azw. Must do some testing....)



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Again, I'm not blaming indies. I think it is the way Amazon has KDP set up that adult titles can't be properly categorized to begin with. I think it is an issue with the way Amazon processes metadata on indie books.


Yeah, the problem is that WE can't resolve the problem. Amazon certainly can, but their agenda is different. (And I suspect, that whatever solution they're using, it isn't that they are actually being half-assed about it, but rather that they are, as usual, trotting it out in phases and doing it at their own geologic pace.

And all of this is related to how they deal with categories, which they started changing a while ago.

Also, I actually think that, before the adult dungeon, the fact that indies show up in search when they shouldn't has probably given an advantage to indie erotica writers. That's going to go away (just as "free" got separated from paid in best sellers). But in the end, Amazon still does want customers to find what they want. They just don't want them to have to deal with too much that they seriously don't want.

Camille


----------



## CoraBuhlert

Boyd said:


> I'm working on a set of stories under a pen name, but I haven't submitted them yet. I have the dumb of the dumbest questions. In you folk's experience with Amazon, where is the line drawn between erotica and romance? I've read some of both, and many times the line between the two seems very blurred.
> 
> The one I am close to submitting I have saved in my book shelf, but I've labeled it as romantic-erotica and erotica. Should I be safe if I label the content outright and keep my keywords accurate in what is in the book? I'd rather not hit submit button until I'm sure.
> 
> I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask this in, but reading through the posts it seems most of the folks who could answer me follow this one.
> 
> Thanks!


It's erotic romance, if the focus is on the relationship of the couple (or trio in case of menage stories) and if the central couple (or trio) lives happily in a committed relationship at the end, i.e. there is a happily ever after (HEA) or happy for now (HFN) end.

If the focus is simply on sex and the characters go their separate ways at the end, then it's erotica.


----------



## LBrent

MsTee said:


> Ugh. I did some digging. *No, you're NOT allowed to use the Send to Kindle feature as a form of distribution.
> *
> Link to TOU: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201124320
> 
> I more annoyed by that Amazon rep that said it was OK in the first place.
> 
> Sorry, guys, for the misinformation.


Which takes me back to my original point, Send to Kindle can't be used for direct distribution, *but* if an ebook in the Kindle file type is sold on an author's private website then the buyer downloads to their computer and sends the file to Kindle it's not the same as direct distribution. The file is being sent to Kindle from the buyer's computer just like any other document can be sent. AZon has no control over this. No?


----------



## CoraBuhlert

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> As I already said, in over ten years as an Amazon customer, I have never accidentally stumbled across a sex toy while looking for something else. _Never_. And I spends thousands of dollars a year on Amazon. I have, however, accidentally stumbled across erotica while looking for books in other genres. And in those cases, it has always been indie books, not trade books, that this has happened with.


I have stumbled over sex toys on Amazon. A couple of years ago, I was looking at some _Ellora's Cave_ (pioneering e-publisher of erotic romance) titles on Amazon. I didn't even buy the books, I was merely looking at them. The next time I opened Amazon, I was greeted by an array of dildos and sex toys on the start page with a "Based on your browsing history, we think you might be interested in these products" message. Now I was at home, so the whole situation wasn't embarrassing. Nonetheless, the fact that I look at and perhaps even buy erotic romance does not mean that I automatically want dildos.

Mind you, this was Amazon Germany, which is less prudish about such things. And it has never happened again, in spite of looking at and occasionally even buying erotic romance or outright erotica.

However, I have repeatedly stumbled over what was obviously erotica, while searching for something else. I don't mind, but it does happen. Two of my non-erotica books have erotica also-boughts and are in the also-boughts of explicit erotica. Again, I don't mind and even welcome it, since both titles get a bunch of sales from people who assume they are erotica (and the occasional "Where is the sex?" review), even both are no more explicit than a 1970s bodiceripper.


----------



## MsTee

daringnovelist said:


> However, if the customers buy a mobi file from you, THEY can send it to their own Kindle via email. (Note, for some reason I thought we couldn't send mobi files, only .doc and .azw. Must do some testing....)
> 
> Yeah, the problem is that WE can't resolve the problem. Amazon certainly can, but their agenda is different. (And I suspect, that whatever solution they're using, it isn't that they are actually being half-assed about it, but rather that they are, as usual, trotting it out in phases and doing it at their own geologic pace.
> 
> And all of this is related to how they deal with categories, which they started changing a while ago.
> 
> Also, I actually think that, before the adult dungeon, the fact that indies show up in search when they shouldn't has probably given an advantage to indie erotica writers. That's going to go away (just as "free" got separated from paid in best sellers). But in the end, Amazon still does want customers to find what they want. They just don't want them to have to deal with too much that they seriously don't want.
> 
> Camille


Yes! That will work.

And I agree that Amazon can implement all or some or one of the things we've discussed, but Amazon is such a huge company, you have to wonder if the reason they're not implementing sensible solutions is because the decision is dependent on multiple people - some of whom might be unwilling to take any action forward on this. 

You're right that we can't resolve this problem in relation to Amazon, and I guess that's the most frustrating thing. That you desperately want some communication, some understanding, SOMETHING that can put your mind to ease. I sympathize with all the authors who are being affected by this. It's never fun to depend on a finicky, unhelpful party. 



LBrent said:


> Which takes me back to my original point, Send to Kindle can't be used for direct distribution, *but* if an ebook in the Kindle file type is sold on an author's private website then the buyer downloads to their computer and sends the file to Kindle it's not the same as direct distribution. The file is being sent to Kindle from the buyer's computer just like any other document can be sent. AZon has no control over this. No?


Lol, in the end you were right, LBrent!  Easier to let them download the file to their computer and email to their own email addresses. This will definitely be a better choice for individuals who aren't confident with the ability to side-load files. It's much easier to open your email account of choice and attach a file.


----------



## LBrent

I just thought of this, what if each author compiled an ebook catalog (w/links, cover, blurb, etc) of their work and put these catalogs up on AZon as permafree?

Readers searching for erotica will find your catalog and know exactly what you sell (kink) and where to buy it DIRECTLY. Plus you still benefit from AZon traffic but no one gets offended even if the catalog (with a tame/plain cover) turns up in unrelated searches.


----------



## LBrent

MsTee,
Guuurl, sometimes my dyslexic brain takes an odd turn and I end up right. Go figure. LMAO

In the end, folks looking for naughty stuff are used to having to take extra steps to get what they want. This is no different.


----------



## daringnovelist

LBrent said:


> MsTee,
> Guuurl, sometimes my dyslexic brain takes an odd turn and I end up right. Go figure. LMAO
> 
> In the end, folks looking for naughty stuff are used to having to take extra steps to get what they want. This is no different.


I think the problem is that a lot of erotica authors are (accidentally) getting exposure to a whole lot of people who aren't looking for it. And there is always a proportion of those people who don't look because they are embarrassed, but when it's right there in front of them, they buy. So, no matter what you do, if you make it so it doesn't show up for people who don't want it, you will always cut into the sales of this stuff.

And that's why I said that there is no solution that will not impact sales.

However, that's also why I think it would be great if there were a "plain brown wrapper" display (with note that the contents on Explicit) for adult material when it the search is outside an adult area. It would still show up, there would still be indication of what it is, but there wouldn't be so much of the "Yikes!" factor (or "Ew!" factor) when it shows up in searches. But a good title or subtitle (combined with the explicit warning) could still catch those people who might click through for curiosity's sake. And it would work with Amazon's algorithms.

Camille


----------



## Paranormal Piper

Alexia Stark said:


> That's a good question. I had assumed it was because they have not gotten around to blocking all back titles, but there are new books coming out every day with titles including daddy, bother, sister and mother that don't get blocked. So it seems like some kind of favoritism, which brings me back to the fact that every time I'm blocked, it's from the same reviewer.
> 
> But I'm one tiny tadpole in the huge lake of erotica, so this is pure speculation and likely wrong. *shrug*


Really? Could you link to some examples I could see? I made a few of my titles super lame because I was under the impression words like daddy, daughter, mommy, etc, always summoned the banhammer.


----------



## Nihilist

mjshaw said:


> Really? Could you link to some examples I could see? I made a few of my titles super lame because I was under the impression words like daddy, daughter, mommy, etc, always summoned the banhammer.


Sure:



Spoiler



sep 21st My Best Friend's Daddy (Daddy's Sexy Secrets Vol. 2)

http://www.amazon.com/Friends-Daddy-Daddys-Secrets-ebook/dp/B00FD7P7TE/ref=sr_1_29?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503606&sr=1-29&keywords=%22daddy%22

Sep 14th The Daddy Project

http://www.amazon.com/The-Daddy-Project-ebook/dp/B00F7Q92B0/ref=sr_1_32?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503606&sr=1-32&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 19 Doing Mr Doughty - Her Best Friend's Dad: Younger Woman With An Older Man

http://www.amazon.com/Doing-Mr-Doughty-Friends-ebook/dp/B00FBH1M/ref=sr_1_20?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503577&sr=1-20&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 10th Daddy's Girl

http://www.amazon.com/Daddys-Girl-ebook/dp/B00F4F12NU/ref=sr_1_48?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503633&sr=1-48&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 12th Daddy's Baby Girl Series: Beach Play Time (ABDL, Diaper, Baby Talk, Baby Role Play, Threesome)

http://www.amazon.com/Daddys-Baby-Girl-Threesome-ebook/dp/B00F659C1C/ref=sr_1_37?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503633&sr=1-37&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 24th The Neighbor (Daddy's Sexy Secrets Vol. 4)

http://www.amazon.com/Neighbor-Daddys-Sexy-Secrets-ebook/dp/B00FEWYCS0/ref=sr_1_80?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503880&sr=1-80&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 24th Doodle Loves Daddy (Bundle #1) (DDlg DD/lg Dom-Daddy Taboo Age Play Series)

http://www.amazon.com/Doodle-Loves-Bundle-Dom-Daddy-ebook/dp/B00FEXBKFM/ref=sr_1_100?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503939&sr=1-100&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 25th Daddy Was All The Way In Me (The Secret Daddy-Daughter Seduction) - A Short Erotic Story

http://www.amazon.com/Daddy-Secret-Daddy-Daughter-Seduction-ebook/dp/B007AWYS22/ref=sr_1_188?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380504112&sr=1-188&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 16th Daddy, Give Me More (Stepdad & Stepdaughter Fun Time) - A Short Erotic Story

http://www.amazon.com/Daddy-Give-Stepdad-Stepdaughter-ebook/dp/B007BDKICO/ref=sr_1_190?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380504112&sr=1-190&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 18th My Stepdaughter's Naked Sexy Body (The Secret Daddy-Daughter Seduction) - A Short Erotic Story

http://www.amazon.com/Stepdaughters-Secret-Daddy-Daughter-Seduction-ebook/dp/B007AQ1OD4/ref=sr_1_198?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380504164&sr=1-198&keywords=%22daddy%22



And that was after a quick search of only new daddy stuff. There is more. A lot more.

ETA, sorry to spoiler block it, don't want offend anyone and have mods on my tail. Scroll over the black to see the titles and links.


----------



## daringnovelist

Alexia Stark said:


> That's a good question. I had assumed it was because they have not gotten around to blocking all back titles, but there are new books coming out every day with titles including daddy, bother, sister and mother that don't get blocked. So it seems like some kind of favoritism, which brings me back to the fact that every time I'm blocked, it's from the same reviewer.
> 
> But I'm one tiny tadpole in the huge lake of erotica, so this is pure speculation and likely wrong. *shrug*


First, I'll admit right off that mine is speculation too (and I don't even write erotica) -- but this is what I'm talking about when I said that this reminds me of the "quality" sweeps they did at eHow.

I have no idea if there is favoritism here, or not. What I can say that this is exactly how it would work if they were sweeping everything and there was no favoritism.

They seem to be using human intervention to sweep the titles. That takes time, and with a field this big, and they have to start someplace. Wherever they choose to start, it will seem like they targeted that area. And maybe they did -- or not -- but that doesn't mean they are going to stop there.

And the sweep itself will be a learning process. People are trying to get through a huge amount of work quickly and they will be making judgement calls -- and at first each person will be making different calls. If this goes the way other such efforts go, they meet regularly and review questions and eventually all get on the same page. (And it could be that this Carlos guy will have his ears pinned back... but it could also be that everyone will start being as tough as he is. Depends on the team leaders and group influence. And also if his calls are causing unintended problems elsewhere.)

The thing about _new_ files is that they weren't in the pool yet when they set up their queues to process, so they're going to be unfiltered for a while until they get into the process too. (Even Google does this with web pages. Often a new page is easier to find in search the first day it's posted, and then it disappears for a month or even 90 days into the "sandbox" while it earns its proper ranking.)

Sure, Amazon could put a filter or algorithm on it, but that would cause a lot more disruption than just letting it all through and catching it later.

I have no idea if Amazon is doing it this way. I'm just going by how massive "clean up" processes have gone elsewhere.

Camille


----------



## Nihilist

daringnovelist said:


> First, I'll admit right off that mine is speculation too (and I don't even write erotica) -- but this is what I'm talking about when I said that this reminds me of the "quality" sweeps they did at eHow.
> 
> I have no idea if there is favoritism here, not. What I can say that this is exactly how it would work if they were sweeping everything and there was no favoritism.
> 
> They seem to be using human intervention to sweep the titles. That takes time, and with a field this big, and they have to start someplace. Wherever they choose to start, it will seem like they targeted that area. And maybe they did -- or not -- but that doesn't mean they are going to stop there.
> 
> And the sweep itself will be a learning process. People are trying to get through a huge amount of work quickly and they will be making judgement calls -- and at first each person will be making different calls. If this goes the way other such efforts go, they meet regularly and review questions and eventually all get on the same page. (And it could be that this Carlos guy will have his ears pinned back... but it could also be that everyone will start being as tough as he is. Depends on the team leaders and group influence. And also if his calls are causing unintended problems elsewhere.)
> 
> The thing about _new_ files is that they weren't in the pool yet when they set up their queues to process, so they're going to be unfiltered for a while until they get into the process too. (Even Google does this with web pages. Often a new page is easier to find in search the first day it's posted, and then it disappears for a month or even 90 days into the "sandbox" while it earns its proper ranking.)
> 
> Sure, Amazon could put a filter or algorithm on it, but that would cause a lot more disruption than just letting it all through and catching it later.
> 
> I have no idea if Amazon is doing it this way. I'm just going by how massive "clean up" processes have gone elsewhere.
> 
> Camille


What you're saying makes sense. It really does. I just hate that it has to be this way. I am very much the moth beating the light with its wings. I like where I am, I'm comfortable and see the light. I want to be closer, and when that light goes off, I freak out and hope it comes back on. I know it's a stupid way to look at things, but I abhor change.

I hope my post didn't come across as calling you (or anyone else) out, it was not my intent, I just wanted to warn people I really don't know. I was (and am) just speculating. 

You have a lot of great points, and have given me a lot to think about. Thank you.


----------



## cinisajoy

I noticed while ago that Smashwords has the adult filter on by default.  I was searching for an erotic book.  Why can't Amazon do something that simple?


----------



## daringnovelist

Alexia Stark said:


> I hope my post didn't come across as calling you (or anyone else) out, it was not my intent, I just wanted to warn people I really don't know. I was (and am) just speculating.
> 
> You have a lot of great points, and have given me a lot to think about. Thank you.


I didn't think you were responding to anyone personally -- just to points made, which is the point of a discussion. (That's how I was responding too.)

As I said, I don't write erotica, so I don't really have a dog in this race. (Or is that a horse in this fight?) I just think that these issues are really big and we all need to get a handle on what's happening. If only for future reference when something different happens. (I mean, if what I learned watching eHow's sweeps is helpful to folks struggling with this, good. If it's just more smoke in the wind, well, at least it's a perspective.)

The thing is, even if it's a lot like eHow's sweeps, it's still going to be different in so many ways. And the solutions are different.

Camille


----------



## KMatthew

Alexia Stark said:


> That's a good question. I had assumed it was because they have not gotten around to blocking all back titles, but there are new books coming out every day with titles including daddy, bother, sister and mother that don't get blocked. So it seems like some kind of favoritism, which brings me back to the fact that every time I'm blocked, it's from the same reviewer.
> 
> But I'm one tiny tadpole in the huge lake of erotica, so this is pure speculation and likely wrong. *shrug*


I noticed this too. They banned all of my PI stuff. So far, nothing else has been touched except this 1 two part series I had, which I'm assuming only got banned because I have the complete work published, and people who bought the two parts separate were 1 starring it, while the combined work had 4/5 stars (basically, the 1 stars for the two parts probably made it seem like a bad value for customers, which is why I assume the two separate parts were blocked but the complete published work was left alone).

I've seen a lot of other clearly titled PI stuff being published though.


----------



## Nihilist

daringnovelist said:


> I didn't think you were responding to anyone personally -- just to points made, which is the point of a discussion. (That's how I was responding too.)
> 
> As I said, I don't write erotica, so I don't really have a dog in this race. (Or is that a horse in this fight?) I just think that these issues are really big and we all need to get a handle on what's happening. If only for future reference when something different happens. (I mean, if what I learned watching eHow's sweeps is helpful to folks struggling with this, good. If it's just more smoke in the wind, well, at least it's a perspective.)
> 
> The thing is, even if it's a lot like eHow's sweeps, it's still going to be different in so many ways. And the solutions are different.
> 
> Camille


I'm glad. I just know tone and inflection are missing in type, so I wanted to make sure I was clear.

I do write erotica, and PI only, so my views are narrow and directly within amazon's sights (or so I assume). Wait, no, I have one shifter book, but I think that falls into their sweep as bestiality, even though my MC never gets down and dirty when he's in horse form. Again, sucks, but I get it.

Even though your view is from the outside looking it, it still holds a very valuable perspective, an objective one I couldn't have myself. eHow isn't the only sight to do such things, and I seem to remember reading complaints about smashwords refusing certain things (to be fair, they were illegal things, such as underage or unspecified {which could/might sound underage} which need to be blocked, in my opinion. The law needs to be upheld, even with art) but it does seem odd that new titles are not getting blocked before seeing the light of day (as I was, for seven titles now). Looking and seeing titles published as shortly as two days ago (my first title was blocked Aug 8th) kind of irks me.

Anywho, as others have said, amazon has the right to not sell product, but I still think PI has a huge following (as does monster) and it's a bad business move to start blocking it. Maybe making the move to another site is the right idea. Sure, amazon sells well, but once they stop letting us sell... well, they're no longer the one that sells, and I bet readers will migrate to find what they are looking for. *shrug*

Again, I could be completely wrong. I've put my money into the losing horse before, but right now, it feels like betting on a lame horse that's had previous wins. Sure, they've run well in the past, but the future is where the money's at.


----------



## Honeybun

Well... add me to the list of the fallen.  They just banned my title Daddy Substitute 1.  Now... it is pseudo-incest but only in that the story is between a barely 18 yo girl with her 20 something teacher--the only PI aspect of it is that she has some serious daddy issues in that her daddy had had some plans for her "when she got old enough" but he died before she did get old enough.  That left her to work out her issues with another older man (about 10 yrs older).

The cover (see my signature line of covers below) by the way has a girl in a miniskirt and high thigh stockings, showing her as she walks away.  The only skin it shows is her arms and some thigh between her knee and the bottom of the skirt.  My other covers of the series are far more explicit and carry the same name as the first title in the series.  So, basically, the whole series is toast.

Just a btw, the notice was from a Dani Q.  And, I have barely published in months.  I think it's been well over a month since I published #9.  I was close to finishing #10 but was feeling hesitant about it, concerned it would put me on their banning-radar.  Well, looks like I'm on it anyway.


----------



## Nihilist

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> Well... add me to the list of the fallen. They just banned my title Daddy Substitute 1. Now... it is pseudo-incest but only in that the story is between a barely 18 yo girl with her 20 something teacher--the only PI aspect of it is that she has some serious daddy issues in that her daddy had had some plans for her "when she got old enough" but he died before she did get old enough. That left her to work out her issues with another older man (about 10 yrs older).
> 
> The cover by the way has a girl in a miniskirt and high thigh stockings, showing her as she walks away. The only skin it shows is her arms and some thigh between her knee and the bottom of the skirt. My other covers of the series are far more explicit and carry the same name as the first title in the series. So, basically, the whole series is toast.
> 
> Just a btw, the notice was from a Dani Q. And, I have barely published in months. I think it's been well over a month since I published #9. I was close to finishing #10 but was feeling hesitant about it, concerned it would put me on their banning-radar. Well, looks like I'm on it anyway.


It *seems* (please don't quote me) that "daddy" is a target on your book's back. Or front. lol. Perhaps change that up and clean up the description from any mention of daddy and put it back through? It has worked for titles I've put out (IE "Her Brothers" became "Settling the score" and passed through the filter) Again, I could be completely wrong, but it's something to try.

When they send you the "Your book's been blocked" email, you can respond and ask them to unblock so you can make your content compliant with Amazon's Tos and put it back up for review. They encourage this practice, so use it to your advantage, and good luck!


----------



## Honeybun

Alexia Stark said:


> It *seems* (please don't quote me) that "daddy" is a target on your book's back. Or front. lol. Perhaps change that up and clean up the description from any mention of daddy and put it back through? It has worked for titles I've put out (IE "Her Brothers" became "Settling the score" and passed through the filter) Again, I could be completely wrong, but it's something to try.
> 
> When they send you the "Your book's been blocked" email, you can respond and ask them to unblock so you can make your content compliant with Amazon's Tos and put it back up for review. They encourage this practice, so use it to your advantage, and good luck!


Thanks, Alexia... I'm so pressed for time that I hate putting it into this but I think that your suggestions are spot on. This is something I'm going to have to give some thought. I am very close to making the jump to writing some short romance novellas, not even uber sexy (if I can resist that tendency, lol).


----------



## MorningJoe

Alexia Stark said:


> What you're saying makes sense. It really does. I just hate that it has to be this way. I am very much the moth beating the light with its wings. I like where I am, I'm comfortable and see the light. I want to be closer, and when that light goes off, I freak out and hope it comes back on. I know it's a stupid way to look at things, but I abhor change.
> 
> I hope my post didn't come across as calling you (or anyone else) out, it was not my intent, I just wanted to warn people I really don't know. I was (and am) just speculating.
> 
> You have a lot of great points, and have given me a lot to think about. Thank you.


So I am one of the authors that published a couple of Daddy books in the past few weeks under a pen name. Possibly even one of the ones you listed in your post  Here is the full story though. I submitted the entire series and half of the books were rejected. The ones that made it may have the word Daddy on the covers but they have absolutely nothing to do with PI in the content. The stories had very random connections to other peoples Daddy's or Daddy type figures but no relations actual or implied with the main character. One of the other books in the series does have PI and sells incredible well on other sites but I have tried rewriting it 3 times to get through Amazon and they have blocked it at every turn. Another book has to do with an encounter among consenting adults under the guise of a babysitting job and it has also been blocked 3 or 4 times.

So just know that even those of us that have gotten some through are getting banned pretty frequently and the stuff that is getting through is very tame and has no PI included. I have been extremely frustrated and can completely understand the pressure you are under. I am relatively recent in the genre as a whole. I was amazed at how well this sub-genre sold and enjoyed writing in it because of the interesting dynamics at play. Although I am bummed that I missed the opportunity that you early adopters have had I feel extremely lucky in that my catalog is smaller and spread out so I can absorb the blow a bit. I cannot imagine the stress and frustration that must come along with having your entire income wiped out by the random whims of a distributor with no clear rules about how to play the game. I think it is going to be tough to find another sub-genre that sells so reliably but I am currently on the hunt as I continue my rewrites 

Good luck and trust me there is no favoritism going on best I can tell. My only advice is to reimagine some of your stories in a way that removes the relationship and try to resubmit. That is what I am trying to do right now, albeit not always very successfully.


----------



## Guest

LBrent said:


> I just thought of this, what if each author compiled an ebook catalog (w/links, cover, blurb, etc) of their work and put these catalogs up on AZon as permafree?
> 
> Readers searching for erotica will find your catalog and know exactly what you sell (kink) and where to buy it DIRECTLY. Plus you still benefit from AZon traffic but no one gets offended even if the catalog (with a tame/plain cover) turns up in unrelated searches.


That is a violation of the KDP terms and will get you banned. You can't "sell" products that simply redirect customers to another site. Amazon has a zero tolerance policy in this regards because of the rush of PLR crap that was uploaded early in KDP.


----------



## Paranormal Piper

Alexia Stark said:


> It *seems* (please don't quote me) that "daddy" is a target on your book's back. Or front. lol. Perhaps change that up and clean up the description from any mention of daddy and put it back through? It has worked for titles I've put out (IE "Her Brothers" became "Settling the score" and passed through the filter) Again, I could be completely wrong, but it's something to try.
> 
> When they send you the "Your book's been blocked" email, you can respond and ask them to unblock so you can make your content compliant with Amazon's Tos and put it back up for review. They encourage this practice, so use it to your advantage, and good luck!


And that is the #1 problem with Amazon. Why is her work targeted but something like 'Daddy Was Deep Inside Me' was recently released on the Zon? As someone mentioned in an earlier comment, titles with Daddy are still being published, but some of use are being swatted down at the same time and being forced to mask what the content actually contains, which means PI-fans might overlook it.

It sux. Ban PI, don't ban it, filter it, don't filter it. At this point, I don't care what decision they make. I just wish they would apply it across the board.


----------



## Honeybun

mjshaw said:


> And that is the #1 problem with Amazon. Why is her work targeted but something like 'Daddy Was Deep Inside Me' was recently released on the Zon? As someone mentioned in an earlier comment, titles with Daddy are still being published, but some of use are being swatted down at the same time and being forced to mask what the content actually contains, which means PI-fans might overlook it.


I share that same sentiment from a slightly different direction. So... I've got some titles with the name Daddy in them. What if I take the name Daddy out and call it The Substitute or My Substitute instead of Daddy Substitute. Someone comes along and says, hey, this looks interesting (the cover of the first one could be mistaken as not even erotica -- see the image below in my signature line). But, that person isn't even into PI and might not even be into erotica. They open the story and get a shock and go, 'oh how gross!!!' I want to entertain. I don't want to put unsuspecting people in an uncomfortable moment. How frustrating!


----------



## LBrent

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> That is a violation of the KDP terms and will get you banned. You can't "sell" products that simply redirect customers to another site. Amazon has a zero tolerance policy in this regards because of the rush of PLR crap that was uploaded early in KDP.


Well, there goes my idea. Lol

Although the same thing could be done and "leaked" to torrent sites...

Anyway, I don't have anything self published or otherwise to get through any filters. I'm just trying to help.


----------



## Honeybun

Selena_Kitt said:


> If you appeal and tell them there is no actual pseudoincest involved they may unblock it. I've had them unfilter things for that reason.


I'll give it a try. Thanks, Selena!

UPDATE: I've written an email explaining the content as non-PI. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the ban will be lifted on Daddy Substitute 1. Given that they didn't automatically go down the series list (Daddy Substitute 2, Daddy Substitute 3, Daddy Substitute 4, etc.), I'm thinking that the objection might be more geared toward the content of the story. I feel that enough hours have passed that if they were going to target the series purely based on the name, they would have already begun to ban the other titles as well. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the email explaining that there is no actual PI in the story will do the trick.


----------



## Guest

Quote from daringnovelist (CAMILLE LAGUIRE)
_". . .I think it would be great if there were a "plain brown wrapper" display. . ."_

Exactly what I suggested on Page 5 of this thread. I said:

_Perhaps we should return to the days of the "Plain Brown Wrapper"
The books would be titled Plain Brown Wrapper, Plain Brown Wrapper 2, Plain Brown Wrapper 3, etc.
Figure out how many pages Amazon would present in the preview. The only text on the preview pages would be "You must be an adult to read this book"_


----------



## Honeybun

Selena_Kitt said:


> If they say no, they will at least tell you what the issue is (i.e. cover, blurb, content, etc) and you can change and appeal again.


Okay... feeling a little deflated. Here's the breakdown of them writing me.. then me writing them... and then them writing me. 

MY INITIAL BAN NOTICE:
Hello,

We're contacting you regarding the following book(s) that you submitted for sale in our Kindle Store:

daddy Substitute 1 / 3104248

During our review process, we found that your book contains content that is in violation of our content guidelines. Our content guidelines apply to the book interior, as well as cover image, title and/or product descriptions. As a result, we will not be offering this book for sale.

Our content guidelines are published on the Kindle Direct Publishing website. To learn more, please see: https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/help?topicId=A1KT4ANX0RL55I

Best regards,

Kindle Direct Publishing
kdp.amazon.com

Best regards,
Dani Q.
Thank you.
Amazon.com

MY RESPONSE:
Good morning,

I wanted to contact you about the blocking of my title Daddy Substitute 1. As the cover is very tame as most erotica covers go, I'm thinking that the block has to do with either the title or the content to the story. If it is the title, please let me know and I will think of an alternative. As to the content, the content does not contain any pseudo-incest. The story captures the beginnings of a relationship between an 18 year old female student and a 29 year old male teacher. The female has a history in that her father had had some inappropriate plans for her but he died before anything ever came about. That part of the story is purely backstory and contains no descriptive elements. The only thing it does is let the audience know that the girl is confused about her relationship with men and lets them know that she has some daddy issues to work out with a slightly older man who is of no biological relationship. Going even beyond that, the
man she explores her daddy issues with did not raise her, has no position of authority in her home, and does not have any relationship with her mother. They only have a non-biological, student-teacher relationship where the daddy element is a part of their relationship in fantasy only.

I would greatly appreciate you taking another look at the story and reconsidering your decision. If you stand by your decision to block the title, please let me know what steps I can take on my end to adapt it to make it acceptable.

Thank you so much for your help. I am very willing to work with you to create a product acceptable for sale by Amazon's standards.

Sincerely,

THEIR RESPONSE TO MY INQUIRY:
Hello,

We're contacting you regarding the following book(s) that you submitted for sale in our Kindle Store:

3104248 Daddy Substitute 1 (Daddy Substitute Chronicles)

During our review process, we found that your book contains content that is in violation of our content guidelines. Our content guidelines apply to the book interior, as well as cover image, title and/or product descriptions. As a result, we will not be offering this book for sale.

Our content guidelines are published on the Kindle Direct Publishing website. To learn more, please see: https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/help?topicId=A1KT4ANX0RL55I

Best regards,
Leigh W.
Thank you.
Amazon.com

*****

This blows. Selena, maybe you got more of an interactive response because you're such a big name--which kudos if that's the case. If you've got it, use it. But, it's not looking like they are willing to work with me on narrowing down the problem.


----------



## Wansit

Saw this on twitter: http://www.amazon.com/Ravished-Triceratops-Dinosaur-Erotica-ebook/dp/B00EZCQADA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1380572122&sr=8-2&keywords=dinosaur+erotica

Can someone please explain how something like that got through the block/ban? I mean...it's clearly a no-no category but it's up this month.  The title is even explicit.


----------



## Daizie

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> Okay... feeling a little deflated. Here's the breakdown of them writing me.. then me writing them... and then them writing me.
> 
> MY INITIAL BAN NOTICE:
> Hello,
> 
> We're contacting you regarding the following book(s) that you submitted for sale in our Kindle Store:
> 
> daddy Substitute 1 / 3104248
> 
> During our review process, we found that your book contains content that is in violation of our content guidelines. Our content guidelines apply to the book interior, as well as cover image, title and/or product descriptions. As a result, we will not be offering this book for sale.
> 
> Our content guidelines are published on the Kindle Direct Publishing website. To learn more, please see: https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/help?topicId=A1KT4ANX0RL55I
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Kindle Direct Publishing
> kdp.amazon.com
> 
> Best regards,
> Dani Q.
> Thank you.
> Amazon.com
> 
> MY RESPONSE:
> Good morning,
> 
> I wanted to contact you about the blocking of my title Daddy Substitute 1. As the cover is very tame as most erotica covers go, I'm thinking that the block has to do with either the title or the content to the story. If it is the title, please let me know and I will think of an alternative. As to the content, the content does not contain any pseudo-incest. The story captures the beginnings of a relationship between an 18 year old female student and a 29 year old male teacher. The female has a history in that her father had had some inappropriate plans for her but he died before anything ever came about. That part of the story is purely backstory and contains no descriptive elements. The only thing it does is let the audience know that the girl is confused about her relationship with men and lets them know that she has some daddy issues to work out with a slightly older man who is of no biological relationship. Going even beyond that, the
> man she explores her daddy issues with did not raise her, has no position of authority in her home, and does not have any relationship with her mother. They only have a non-biological, student-teacher relationship where the daddy element is a part of their relationship in fantasy only.
> 
> I would greatly appreciate you taking another look at the story and reconsidering your decision. If you stand by your decision to block the title, please let me know what steps I can take on my end to adapt it to make it acceptable.
> 
> Thank you so much for your help. I am very willing to work with you to create a product acceptable for sale by Amazon's standards.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> THEIR RESPONSE TO MY INQUIRY:
> Hello,
> 
> We're contacting you regarding the following book(s) that you submitted for sale in our Kindle Store:
> 
> 3104248 Daddy Substitute 1 (Daddy Substitute Chronicles)
> 
> During our review process, we found that your book contains content that is in violation of our content guidelines. Our content guidelines apply to the book interior, as well as cover image, title and/or product descriptions. As a result, we will not be offering this book for sale.
> 
> Our content guidelines are published on the Kindle Direct Publishing website. To learn more, please see: https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/help?topicId=A1KT4ANX0RL55I
> 
> Best regards,
> Leigh W.
> Thank you.
> Amazon.com
> 
> *****
> 
> This blows. Selena, maybe you got more of an interactive response because you're such a big name--which kudos if that's the case. If you've got it, use it. But, it's not looking like they are willing to work with me on narrowing down the problem.


Did you use this email address: [email protected] People have had more success with that one. But it's really irritating when they won't even tell you specifically why they put a ban on your book. Having to guess is not fair.

I could see one of the other books in your series that has nudity, but this one is as tame as they come. You might want to try removing the "barely legal" from the description, also maybe "cock". They seem to have issue with graphic descriptions too, arbitrarily of course.


----------



## Daizie

From guidelines:

*Offensive Content *
What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect.

Could that _be_ any more vague


----------



## cinisajoy

Wansit said:


> Saw this on twitter: http://www.amazon.com/Ravished-Triceratops-Dinosaur-Erotica-ebook/dp/B00EZCQADA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1380572122&sr=8-2&keywords=dinosaur+erotica
> 
> Can someone please explain how something like that got through the block/ban? I mean...it's clearly a no-no category but it's up this month.  The title is even explicit.


Clean cover, clean blurb, and title does not have trigger words like daddy, rape, kidnapped.


----------



## daringnovelist

Okey Dokey said:


> Quote from daringnovelist (CAMILLE LAGUIRE)
> _". . .I think it would be great if there were a "plain brown wrapper" display. . ."_
> 
> Exactly what I suggested on Page 5 of this thread. I said:
> 
> _Perhaps we should return to the days of the "Plain Brown Wrapper"
> The books would be titled Plain Brown Wrapper, Plain Brown Wrapper 2, Plain Brown Wrapper 3, etc.
> Figure out how many pages Amazon would present in the preview. The only text on the preview pages would be "You must be an adult to read this book"_


Yeah, except I wasn't proposing that. The book titles would be listed (and yes, people might have to modify some of their titles) but no covers or explicit material shown. The key is that it is completely clear what is behind that wrapper, but no actual shocking material is shown. There would be no point in just having a blank item with no title but "you must be an adult to view this" because people who would click on that, would also actually look for the erotica they like. This would be a way to get in front of people who might be interested (but wouldn't search) without shocking them.

Of course, the idea version of that would require more than just blocking covers. A truly ideal version would do something that Amazon doesn't do in search -- it would list a general sub-genre. "Pseudo-Incest" might still offend, but "Taboo Erotica" should be plenty to signal the curious person to click, and the not-curious person to stay away.

But that's not going to happen unless Amazon sees it as a major gain for all its customers. And if so, they're going to test systems surrounding it for 10 years before rolling it out anyway. (Without telling anyone.)

Camille


----------



## brie.mcgill

To Ada,

Emailing KDP Support is a bit of a grab bag.

When I wasn't getting help on another matter, I kept emailing (politely, but kept it clear and concise, which your letter is). Third time, I got through to someone who understood my question (rather than receiving a nonsensical canned response that didn't address the situation) and they were completely helpful.

It wasn't about a banned book, but sometimes it's the luck of the draw with who you get. Might be worth it to try again.

Even in attempting to continue a conversation, an extended exchange of email never contains a response from the same rep twice, in my experience.


----------



## Honeybun

brie.mcgill said:


> To Ada,
> 
> Emailing KDP Support is a bit of a grab bag.
> 
> When I wasn't getting help on another matter, I kept emailing (politely, but kept it clear and concise, which your letter is). Third time, I got through to someone who understood my question (rather than receiving a nonsensical canned response that didn't address the situation) and they were completely helpful.
> 
> It wasn't about a banned book, but sometimes it's the luck of the draw with who you get. Might be worth it to try again.
> 
> Even in attempting to continue a conversation, an extended exchange of email never contains a response from the same rep twice, in my experience.


I'll give it another try. Maybe I'll get lucky.


----------



## MorningJoe

GRRRRRRRR  After scrubbing deeply with bleach and steel wool 3 of my stories were again blocked!  This is getting a bit old.  The funny thing is that now after the cleaning these pieces are the tamest things I have available to submit.  I guess it is about time to start trying the title submission email.  

I started seeing the threads from fellow authors looking to branch out into different genres and I don't blame them.  Trying to write 8-10 hours a day is getting a little tougher when I now worry if any of my hard work will even see the light of day.  Right now I have at least 120 hours worth of work tied up in "Blocked Limbo".  

The available solutions have already been stated but I felt like venting and thought this would be a good place to do it.  I hope everyone else is having better luck.


----------



## brie.mcgill

> there are 2 very brief sexual abuse scenes (both girls are over 1 and it's not graphic.


Does this mean Amazon is scanning content? Or was it possible that anyone could have flagged the book?


----------



## Speaker-To-Animals

L.L. Akers said:


> It's not just erotica being scrutinized! I put my (New Adult/Suspense) book on sale for a blog tour. I have been working with D2D to try to change the price back for over a week. I found out today it's being 'reviewed.' It is a coming-of-age story and there are 2 very brief sexual abuse scenes (both girls are over 1 and it's not graphic. I am floored its under review! Until they decide one way or the other, it's apparently still for sale, but frozen at the .99 price.


It might be the cover. You can see a flash of the underside of her leg and edge of her butt. You also have mother, daughter, twins, and raped in the blurb and given the current insanity at Amazon, that might have triggered an automated review.


----------



## HarryK

Wansit said:


> Saw this on twitter: http://www.amazon.com/Ravished-Triceratops-Dinosaur-Erotica-ebook/dp/B00EZCQADA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1380572122&sr=8-2&keywords=dinosaur+erotica
> 
> Can someone please explain how something like that got through the block/ban? I mean...it's clearly a no-no category but it's up this month.  The title is even explicit.


Sonuvabeech! 15 pages, $2.99, and 21,000 sales rank? Screw it, I'm gonna start writing billionaire dinosuar tentacle porn...

(Not to trivialize the OP or anyone else that has had their books banned. Sorry to hear that.)


----------



## Willo

Selena_Kitt said:


> I am working on getting an erotica store together that will be all-inclusive, allow self-pubbed authors and publishers too, and we won't be banning anything unless it's illegal (i.e. underage sex) It's been in the works for months (going sooooo slow *sigh*) but it will at least be a place erotica writers can put their "banned" work on sale!


  This is very good news. With even new adult authors "in review," the need for a strong alternative is growing...


----------



## Jack C. Nemo

KOBO has both paranormal erotica and taboo erotica categories. Taboo appears to allow full incest and zoophilia. PI and tentacles should be just fine there.


----------



## Guest

Question -

If your book(s) have been removed, will you receive royalties for copies already sold?
Or will Amazon freeze the money for violating TOS (terms of service)?


----------



## D.L. Shutter

> Taboo appears to allow full incest and zoophilia. PI and tentacles should be just fine there.


I've never actually checked out their romance sub-categories before you mentioned it. Holy $#!t!  Anything goes over there?


----------



## KMatthew

Diana & Lacey said:


> I don't know how Smashwords is categorizing me over there but my sales are nonexistent at Kobo. If I went direct, I'd at least have some control.


I'm just now seeing sales on Kobo, though nothing to brag about. Oddly enough, all of the titles I have direct with them sell 0 copies per month. I currently have about 20 titles direct with them. The others are through D2D. The ones I have through D2D sell decently. Not sure if there's a difference in going direct with them and going through a distributor. I just find it strange that my titles that are direct through them don't sell, while my titles through the distributor do. =/


----------



## swolf

I seems at though 'babysitter' isn't one of the words they're blocking, since my latest with that word in the title sailed through Amazon publishing in record time.


----------



## D.L. Shutter

Was thinking this the other day while perusing the Kobo>Romance>Erotica>Taboo section for the first time.

If Zon is intent on getting out of (or heavily de-prioritizing) their hardcore, taboo erotica business, Kobo (along with the beleaguered B&N) seems more than happy to expand and meet that exploding customer base. Right now their looking for any minuscule ***** in the Zon market share armor to drive a spear into. And I would like to think the Seattle tech-gods can appreciate, more than anyone, how FAST online customers can and WILL migrate from one outlet to another to get their dirty fix on.

Maybe it's something Ms. Kitt can mention in a polite and professional manner in her pending correspondence to Zon.


----------



## RaeC

Anyone planning on doing any monster erotica now that we're around Halloween, and seeing if it gets past the review process?


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> And I would like to think the Seattle tech-gods can appreciate, more than anyone, how FAST online customers can and WILL migrate from one outlet to another to get their dirty fix on.And I would like to think the Seattle tech-gods can appreciate, more than anyone, how FAST online customers can and WILL migrate from one outlet to another to get their dirty fix on.


Of course they appreciate it. I suspect they know far better than anyone here. They know those customers will go somewhere else. They accept it.


----------



## Honeybun

Update:

I finally did get an email response back from Amazon after about my 3rd inquiry as to what about my story was breaking the rules.  But... shame on me... I didn't even realize that I'd gotten back something different than the form responses I'd gotten before.  Something else that is different is that the person (thank you, Avery B. ! ) also changed the status of my story from blocked to draft without me even asking--enabling me to go ahead and make changes.

The problem with my story?  The title.  Apparently, the title of Daddy Substitute 1 is being deemed as against the content guidelines.

Hmmmmmm...  that is the first in a series, all carrying the same name, and none of the others have been tagged as bad.

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF WHEN I CHANGE MY TITLE, WILL I LOSE MY STAR RATING  I actually do have some reviews and they are all (but one) positive.

And, any suggestions as to a new name?  He's a teacher; she's a student.  He's sort of her Daddy Substitute, just as the title implies.


----------



## swolf

No, you don't lose your star ratings, reviews, or also boughts if you change the title.


----------



## daringnovelist

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> DOES ANYONE KNOW IF WHEN I CHANGE MY TITLE, WILL I LOSE MY STAR RATING I actually do have some reviews and they are all (but one) positive.


I'm pretty sure that if all you're doing it changing the title, nothing else will change -- the customers who have already bought it will still see the "Amazon Instant Update" alert at the top of the page and everything. They treat that like a correction.

It's only if you unpublish it and re-upload as a new book that should get you a problem with losing stars and such. (It goes by ASIN, I think.)

Camille


----------



## Amy Morrel

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> And, any suggestions as to a new name? He's a teacher; she's a student. He's sort of her Daddy Substitute, just as the title implies.


Perhaps use the classic phrase "Father Figure", unless you think that it might trigger the same censorship.

A.Morrel


----------



## a_g

Amy Morrel said:


> Perhaps use the classic phrase "Father Figure", unless you think that it might trigger the same censorship.
> 
> A.Morrel


So far, my 'Father Figure' hasn't been hit by an Adult Tag or ban. Two titles that have the word 'sex' in them have, though. They now are Adult.

*crosses fingers*


----------



## KMatthew

I got another e-mail yesterday blocking 3 more of my titles. I had thought this was over already. Guess not.


----------



## MindyWilde

KMatthew said:


> I got another e-mail yesterday blocking 3 more of my titles. I had thought this was over already. Guess not.


Really sorry to hear that. I still cross my fingers daily hoping that I won't wake up to that message again


----------



## Daizie

Diana & Lacey said:


> I just got an email blocking 10 of my titles. I wrote back and asked them to put the books in draft so I can make changes. Don't panic if this happens to you. Just politely ask to get the books into draft then clean the items they listed up.
> 
> One piece of good news is that in this email they listed what needed to be fixed. Most of my books need title, description and cover fixed. But some only need the description fixed. They don't tell you what needs to be fixed in the titles, but it's obviously the word "Daddy" in my books.
> 
> Before people start grumbling about how much this sucks, remember- Amazon is a store and can choose to stock whatever they want. Even though it's frustrating, we need to work within their system.


At least they are somewhat giving direction on what needs to be fixed now. It's weird they are outright blocking books lately instead of just sticking them in the dungeon. There are tons of Daddy books. Are they going to block them all?


----------



## Victoria Champion

I just came across this article on dailymail.co.uk. Prepare yourself. Also, NSFW. Begin scandal in 3...2...1...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2452731/Amazon-Kindle-Cashing-depraved-literature-glorifies-rape-incest-child-abuse-bestiality.html


----------



## KMatthew

Victoria Champion said:


> I just came across this article on dailymail.co.uk. Prepare yourself. Also, NSFW. Begin scandal in 3...2...1...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2452731/Amazon-Kindle-Cashing-depraved-literature-glorifies-rape-incest-child-abuse-bestiality.html


I think the only reason Amazon has allowed such titles for so long is because there's a big cash pull. I don't think that people who hate this stuff realize how huge of a market there is for it. I've only recently been dabbling in the Daddy stuff, but sales were pretty impressive.

I can understand where lines should be drawn, but honestly, when it comes to step-cest (where the two people aren't even really related), barely legal (18+), and bestiality in the sense where the person is a shape shifter, I don't really see what the big deal is.


----------



## brie.mcgill

Ugh... That article. Ugh. All I have to say is...










For some strange reason, pornography and electronics are inseparable. This person who wrote the article sounds surprised.

Yes, that stuff shouldn't come up when looking for children's Halloween costumes. But the bias in that article is frightening. More frightening that two imaginary step-characters getting it on. (So frightening that I feel the call to write yet another X-rated dystopian.  )

Did Amazon really go to such great lengths to make money from the ebook world, only to later turn and forsake a cash cow that will give its competitors a huge edge?

Anyway, I'm not worried. Where there's a will (or a willy?), there's a way. People clearly won't stop creating or consuming porn.

Back to work. My 157k Gothic alien sex romance needs polishing.


----------



## KMatthew

I just got another e-mail from them, blocking 4 more titles. That's two e-mails from them in one day. Crazy. I am finally at the point where I'll e-mail them tomorrow to unblock the titles so I can rework them. I'll also be stripping excerpts from all of my blurbs, which I've been threatening to do since this whole thing began but have been too lazy to actually get to. It seems like anything naughty in your blurb is a big no-no now.


----------



## CoraBuhlert

Well, it is the _Daily Mail_, which has a reputation for manufacturing outrage. As for that Kernel site the Daily Mail linked to, which is even more outraged, I've never heard of them. So I did a bit of digging and found this, this and this. As for Jeremy Duns, he writes spy fiction and has broken the Q.R. Markham plagiarism case. I never really pegged him for the moral outrage type, but then he only made a single tweet that set off the _Kernel_ and the _Daily Mail_.


----------



## Skye Hunter

The Daily Mail is possibly the worst "news" organization.


----------



## Honeybun

Okay, need some help folks.  I received an email from Amzn banning a bunch of my stories and this time they did include some direction as to where the problems were (which I'm very glad about!).

So, they are objecting to this title:  Bad Grade (A Jock & his Teacher, an erotic romance)

Can anyone shed some light as to the offensive part of that title?  Could it be "erotic"?  I need some help with this one, folks.  I'm shaking my head in puzzlement.   


Just an fyi, they also banned it due to the cover which can be seen in my signature line below. I'm sharing this just as a head's up about what they are considering not ok.


----------



## Honeybun

Skye Hunter said:


> The Daily Mail is possibly the worst "news" organization.


Skye -- I LOVE your Suckle cover!


----------



## Daizie

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> Okay, need some help folks. I received an email from Amzn banning a bunch of my stories and this time they did include some direction as to where the problems were (which I'm very glad about!).
> 
> So, they are objecting to this title: Bad Grade (A Jock & his Teacher, an erotic romance)
> 
> Can anyone shed some light as to the offensive part of that title? Could it be "erotic"? I need some help with this one, folks. I'm shaking my head in puzzlement.
> 
> Just an fyi, they also banned it due to the cover which can be seen in my signature line below. I'm sharing this just as a head's up about what they are considering not ok.


Even if it's not the case, the title suggests that the jock could be underage, so that's probably their issue. You might just have to call it Bad Grade.


----------



## Paranormal Piper

superfictious said:


> Anyone planning on doing any monster erotica now that we're around Halloween, and seeing if it gets past the review process?


I just released *Taken for a Ride by a Werewolf*, and it went through the review process without any problems. It didn't even get hit by the Adult filter.


----------



## Duane Gundrum

I looked through a couple of pages of this thread but couldn't find it. Does anyone have the link to the page where you can check to see if a work has been put into the adult dungeon?


----------



## Nihilist

sarbonn said:


> I looked through a couple of pages of this thread but couldn't find it. Does anyone have the link to the page where you can check to see if a work has been put into the adult dungeon?


http://www.salesrankexpress.com/


----------



## Duane Gundrum

Thank you.


----------



## Amy Morrel

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> Can anyone shed some light as to the offensive part of that title? Could it be "erotic"? I need some help with this one, folks. I'm shaking my head in puzzlement.


I doubt it is the word erotic. I use a subtitle of 'an erotic tale', or the same with additions for the specific story, on lots of my books. So far I haven't been hit by the bans, yet anyhow... *fingers crossed*

A.Morrel


----------



## Honeybun

Diana & Lacey said:


> For the cover, they are cutting WAY back on any nudity. My recommendation would be to either crop the pic closer to their faces, or choose another image. But since he's a jock, can you find a hot football player, or find a hot (clothed) teacher. I know there are hot teacher images out there.
> 
> For the title, it might be "erotic" and it might be "Jock". I like Daizie's suggestion of going with *"Bad Grade". That's a hot title.*


Thank you about the title compliment!!! ... And, I might try finding a sexy teacher and then change the name to something like Falling for the Jock as a series name, letting the sexy teacher cover provide the implication that it's the teacher falling for him.


----------



## Lydniz

Has anyone seen this? The Daily Mail likes to get on its moral high horse every so often but it's pretty powerful.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2456651/WHSmiths-vile-trade-online-rape-porn-Bookseller-apologises-sales-sick-ebooks-revealed.html


----------



## Guest

The biggest GATEKEEPER of book publishing?
It's now Amazon.


----------



## swolf

Just got my email from Amazon.  56 books blocked, plus 5 more that they didn't mention but I have to change to keep the collection titles consistent. 

I'd better get busy...


----------



## JShepard

Lydniz said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2456651/WHSmiths-vile-trade-online-rape-porn-Bookseller-apologises-sales-sick-ebooks-revealed.html


From this article: "Although bestiality is illegal in the UK, the 3,950 word ebook is available to download."

Is he saying that books containing acts that are against the law should not be available for purchase? So no more books about murder? (Goodbye "The shining!")

No more "True Crime" novels? Hell, should Law and Order stop airing?

Back to books, no more books that open our eyes about what women in the middle east face? I mean, those women have acid thrown on them. That's against the law. Ban it.

Say good bye "Tampa" with your 26 year old teacher seducing a 14 year old student. Wonder if Harper Collins would be cool with their author being banned?

Oh, and I guess my book, Vanished, that deals with a girl handing the aftermath of being raped should be banned also, never mind that my MC is an alien on an alien planet.

Unless the problem is stories that glorify crimes. Goodbye, Darkly Dreaming Dexter. (And the show counterpart, Dexter)

No matter how you slice it, the argument is not a strong one. The person who wrote the article needs to stop and think about what they are saying, and realize how silly they sound.

I get (and agree) they don't want it popping up next to kids stuff, but banning it altogether? Not a good fix. Because it's erotica now, Dexter tomorrow.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

Remember in 2010 when Amazon and I think All Romance too, prohibited books depicting incest between adults, rape and I think bestiality too? Well, three years later they're now banning pseudo-incest, tentacle erotica and sex with werewolves and bigfoot. Listen people, this won't stop. I suspect that it's not necessarily Amazon, but certain interest groups who want to marginalize erotica writers and they're picking the easy targets for now. And Amazon is acquiescing.  But in 3 years who will be next? Maybe it will be that safe erotic-romance that you're writing? Or maybe it will that racy college-sex erotic short you published.  I've also written erotic shorts, three of which have been sent to draft status by Amazon. The irony is that I initially wrote my first erotic story because I resented that erotica writers were facing censorship and I wanted to stand with them in a very real way. And then I realized I wrote erotica well and enjoyed doing it so I wrote a few more.  I won't stop writing erotica, but I can imagine that others will be discouraged.  I find this unfortunate, but maybe this is the point, not of Amazon, but of those interest groups. These people who target these fictional books have an agenda -- they want to control what you write and what you read. Don't let them win.


----------



## Lady Vine

They're all doing it, and yet there still isn't a designated erotica ebook store to steal away the business that these companies are now shunning. 

Although none of my titles have been blocked thus far, Amazon has decided that it will override my category choices and lump my stuff in the catch all Erotica section, where it will never see the light of day. It's as good as blocked. 

If we all migrated our erotica titles to a new store they'd surely feel the dent in sales. (But then Amazon would probably offer a few mil and buy the store...)


----------



## CoraBuhlert

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> Remember in 2010 when Amazon and I think All Romance too, prohibited books depicting incest between adults, rape and I think bestiality too? Well, three years later they're now banning pseudo-incest, tentacle erotica and sex with werewolves and bigfoot. Listen people, this won't stop. I suspect that it's not necessarily Amazon, but certain interest groups who want to marginalize erotica writers and they're picking the easy targets for now. And Amazon is acquiescing. But in 3 years who will be next? Maybe it will be that safe erotic-romance that you're writing? Or maybe it will that racy college-sex erotic short you published. I've also written erotic shorts, three of which have been sent to draft status by Amazon. The irony is that I initially wrote my first erotic story because I resented that erotica writers were facing censorship and I wanted to stand with them in a very real way. And then I realized I wrote erotica well and enjoyed doing it so I wrote a few more. I won't stop writing erotica, but I can imagine that others will be discouraged. I find this unfortunate, but maybe this is the point, not of Amazon, but of those interest groups. These people who target these fictional books have an agenda -- they want to control what you write and what you read. Don't let them win.


I totally agree with this, SunHi. I don't write taboo erotica, incest, pseudo-incest and the like. Nonetheless, I'm very disturbed by these blocking and censoring attempts as well as by campaigns like the one currently going on in the UK, because it's possible that the censoring busybodies will go after my books next.

Some of my most popular books are historical adventure romances. These books have violence, torture scenes, execution scenes, whipping scenes and sex. Sometimes the consent is dubious. Nothing in those books is worse than what you'd find in a standard 1970s bodiceripper style romance or a 1960s men's adventure mag. Plus, I always include a disclaimer warning about sexual and violent content. Nonetheless, campaigns like the current UK campaign against pseudo-incest erotica worry me. Because I have already changed my stories and e.g. made characters who have sex 18 or 19, when they'd probably have been younger in historical reality. I have covered up bare breasts on historical paintings on my covers. I have a tentacle story in the works that's basically a pulpy fantasy novelette (think Weird Tales in the 1930s) with some extra tentacle action. I already changed the title to avoid the adult dungeon or the ban hammer. And it annoys me that I have to censor my own work just because some busybodies get their knickers in a twist about e-book erotica.

I also view this as part of a general creeping decline of sexual freedom in the western world and it worries me. I always used to be something of a prude, so why do I suddenly find myself on the radical fringe of sexual liberty?


----------



## Christa Wick

The established order worldwide loves violence -- it makes us afraid and we look to government and para-governmental/para-police entities for protection. They are anti-sex because if you can suppress one of the two most crucial instincts of a species, you can control the species. Also, suppressing sex creates violence and ... the established order loves violence.

A wonderful essay from Remittance Girl -- http://remittancegirl.com/discussions/two-legs-bad-an-open-letter-to-mark-coker-smashwords-censorship-erotica/

A few facts excerpted:



> Cultures that tolerate highly sexualized, graphic depictions of rape, such as Japan, have some of the lowest rates of rape in the world. While countries like the Democratic Republic of Congo, with only a debated 67.2% literacy rate, little access to erotic fiction, no significant pornography industry and low internet access, have among the highest incidence of violent rape in the world.
> 
> Or, if sexual torture is your concern, it is good to remember that Egypt, with an outright ban on erotic fiction, has the highest rate of female circumcision in the world. And if a clitorectomy doesn't count as sexual torture, I'm not sure what does.


----------



## cinisajoy

Ok, I may be stupid, missing something or just spend too much time here but I am totally confused.  Several of you are complaining of being banned for this, that or the other.  Another complained about being put in erotica where it will never see the light of day.  Today I did a quick search in both sexual abuse and erotica.  I used two key words.  In both cases there were less than 200 in the sexual abuse category.  In erotica it was at least 800 for each.  The two key words were rape and incest.  And at least 12 free in erotica rape. So my question to those that are being banned or asked to change something, where are you putting your books to begin with?    
Though in all honesty in my quickie searches lately, the romance genre covers are more racy than erotica.
If I want to read erotica, I actually expect to need to go to the erotica section.  
Actually I usually just come here and see who the erotic authors are and go look at their amazon page.


----------



## justagirl

I'm blocked! I had a title in the Dungeon for a while, too, but unpublished it in order to rework the premise. 

Now, I submitted this last one knowing it might get blocked (it's PI) but I made sure to be careful with my cover, description, etc. Although I saw someone mention earlier that "Taboo" might be one of their no-no words - I'd put that in the series title, but not the actual title of the story. It does look like the content is starting to be targeted. My email came from Dani Q, I think. 

Funnily enough, we've got another book out that is actual incest - cousincest. In Georgia. Where it's legal. And it, thankfully, hasn't been hit with a ban yet. 

This kind of thing drives me up the wall - and to be perfectly honest, this tightening of the marketplace to not include anything that can be considered "dark" is one of the reasons I pretty much ran over to fanfiction a few years ago, where the AUs are often just basically original fic using non-original character names with a few character descriptions. I want to be able to purchase it. Indie publishing gave me many more options as a consumer, and I don't like giving them up.

@ Selena Kitt, any idea on a time frame for the new storefront you're creating?


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

CoraBuhlert said:


> I totally agree with this, SunHi. I don't write taboo erotica, incest, pseudo-incest and the like. Nonetheless, I'm very disturbed by these blocking and censoring attempts as well as by campaigns like the one currently going on in the UK, because it's possible that the censoring busybodies will go after my books next.
> 
> Some of my most popular books are historical adventure romances. These books have violence, torture scenes, execution scenes, whipping scenes and sex. Sometimes the consent is dubious. Nothing in those books is worse than what you'd find in a standard 1970s bodiceripper style romance or a 1960s men's adventure mag. Plus, I always include a disclaimer warning about sexual and violent content. Nonetheless, campaigns like the current UK campaign against pseudo-incest erotica worry me. Because I have already changed my stories and e.g. made characters who have sex 18 or 19, when they'd probably have been younger in historical reality. I have covered up bare breasts on historical paintings on my covers. I have a tentacle story in the works that's basically a pulpy fantasy novelette (think Weird Tales in the 1930s) with some extra tentacle action. I already changed the title to avoid the adult dungeon or the ban hammer. And it annoys me that I have to censor my own work just because some busybodies get their knickers in a twist about e-book erotica.
> 
> I also view this as part of a general creeping decline of sexual freedom in the western world and it worries me. I always used to be something of a prude, so why do I suddenly find myself on the radical fringe of sexual liberty?


I think that you're justified in being worried, because this will not stop, and I'm willing to bet my last dollar on that. In 3 years, maybe 5 years we will still be having this conversation, but I will bet you $10 that it will include non-erotica books. Maybe something too heavy or offensive for the average Sue and it'll be put out by a self-publisher and they will target that indie and say "see these people have no standards -- yadda yadda." Of course I don't have a crystal ball into the future, but I've lived enough life to know how these types of things can play out. I haven't decided what to do about my titles, but changing the titles goes against my principles as a writer. I have always promised myself that I would never allow anyone to control what I write. Now if that means that my erotica can't be on Amazon, then that's a decision I have to make for myself.


----------



## Claudia King

Bah, they finally got around to hitting a couple of my titles.
I got my PI-but-not-really title flagged along with the M/M bundle it was part of. It seems like the title "His Girlfriend's Daddy" is what's causing problems, since the issues with the book itself were described as "Title, Description, Cover Image", while the issues with the bundle were only listed as "Description" (which contains the title and blurb of the flagged book).

Time to retitle that one then, I guess. And cut out all mention of "stepdad" in the blurb. That's going to make it easy for readers to tell what it's about. >.>
There's not even any *actual* pseudo-incest in the book. It's about a guy doing naughty stuff with his girlfriend's stepdad, but I guess the vague implication is enough to set alarm bells ringing.

I really do have to add my concerns to the growing list in this thread. I think censoring titles like this is absolutely archaic and backward. This kind of "sweep sex under the carpet" attitude does nothing more than to hide material that most people take offence to purely out of ignorance.


----------



## swolf

Claudia King said:


> I really do have to add my concerns to the growing list in this thread. I think censoring titles like this is absolutely archaic and backward. This kind of "sweep sex under the carpet" attitude does nothing more than to hide material that most people take offence to purely out of ignorance.


One of my ones they blocked because of the title was "Peeping in the Camp Shower." If that's not a mistake, it's absolutely ridiculous.

At the same time, they had no problem (so far) with my title, "I Spy with My Stepbrother's Eye." The inconsistency is mind-boggling. (I'm changing it anyway.)


----------



## KMatthew

I'm at the same point that a lot of you are at, deciding whether or not I'm going to rework some of my books so that they'll fit with these new standards. Thankfully, Amazon put most of my blocked books back in draft, but as I stare at my PI titles, which all need a title, description, and cover re-work, I'm sitting here thinking what's the point? If it's not obvious that it's PI, then someone will probably stumble on it unaware, buy it, and complain anyway. If enough people do that, the title will still end up blocked. So, in that regard, it truly doesn't seem worth the effort. As for other titles that have been blocked, if they're not a part of a series, I'm really looking at the amount of income they bring in before I decide if I want to rework them or not. The vast majority will end up remaining in Draft. As of right now, I can see perhaps 7 more of my titles being blocked. Thankfully, they haven't gotten to blocking my tentacle erotica yet, which is a pretty consistent seller. I think the day they do that, I will officially be livid about this.


----------



## KMatthew

swolf said:


> One of my ones they blocked because of the title was "Peeping in the Camp Shower." If that's not a mistake, it's absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> At the same time, they had no problem (so far) with my title, "I Spy with My Stepbrother's Eye." The inconsistency is mind-boggling. (I'm changing it anyway.)


It's probably because 'Camp Shower' makes it sound underage. And on the note of your other title, there are several of my titles I'm sure they haven't got to yet. I would prefer if they took things one author at a time, instead of blocking a few books per author every few days. Worrying about the e-mails I'm going to wake up to every morning isn't fun.


----------



## RaeC

I wonder if they'd block a book titled "Carlos F Takes a Tentacle in the Amazon".

I'm also wondering if some of the inconsistency stems from a language issue, with Amazon outsourcing their reviewing and the "Carlos F", "Suzy P", etc monikers being completely fake.


----------



## Al Dente

I won't get into details but I just had 5 titles banned as well. It's not a big deal because I haven't written on that pen name in almost a year, but that's still nuts.


----------



## P.C. (Peter) Anders

Sorry to hear about the unnecessary banning of others' titles. No banning here, and my books are a combination of wordplay and humor combined with erotic episodes. However, a single two-star review of "The Uncensored Massage: Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, China," complaining that the book is about massage (when the description as well as the title emphasizes massage above all else!), has virtually stopped sales of my best-performing book.  (Unless, of course, it's just the government shutdown.)


----------



## Flash Rex

Anybody tried emailing Bezos directly?  Apparently he can be reached at [email protected] According to Bloomberg story I saw today, he sometimes responds to address issues personally. If someone wrote him from a customer perspective (can't find all of an author's titles, some topics available for purchase elsewhere, etc.) maybe they would stop butchering this whole process. 

Or maybe he'd just scream obscenities at Carlos F___!


----------



## P.C. (Peter) Anders

Flash Rex said:


> Anybody tried emailing Bezos directly? Apparently he can be reached at [email protected]
> 
> Or maybe he'd just scream obscenities at Carlos F___!


Thanks for the address. I think I might try.

But . . . sorry, but who's Carlos F?
(sounded very funny).


----------



## Flash Rex

P.C. (Peter) Anders said:


> Thanks for the address. I think I might try.
> 
> But . . . sorry, but who's Carlos F?
> (sounded very funny).


Carlos F is apparently the signatory on many of the YOUR TITLES ARE BLOCKED emails. What the F stands for is a matter of conjecture...


----------



## Anjasa

Selena had the Babysitting the Baumgartner's removed from sale. She's not pleased, obviously.

6 titles for us removed.


----------



## David Adams

I just had two titles removed today. Going to see if I can get them reinstated; they really don't sell enough to justify new covers.


----------



## Guest

As a writer of YA Fantasy I don't have a dog in this fight other than my opposition to censorship. But I'm afraid there may be very little you can do to oppose amazon in this matter. However, erotica writers may consider banning together to offer your "Banned by Amazon" work. Actually, that's kinda catchy. People love the forbidden, as you well know.

Just a thought.


----------



## CoraBuhlert

Flash Rex said:


> Anybody tried emailing Bezos directly? Apparently he can be reached at [email protected] According to Bloomberg story I saw today, he sometimes responds to address issues personally. If someone wrote him from a customer perspective (can't find all of an author's titles, some topics available for purchase elsewhere, etc.) maybe they would stop butchering this whole process.
> 
> Or maybe he'd just scream obscenities at Carlos F___!


He should be very careful about wording his obscenities or Carlos F. might end up banning Jeff Bezos. 

Sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## Zenferno

Woke up to 3 of my titles reverted to draft.  Now I'm down to only 2 active ones, neither of which make any sales anyway .  I briefly considered reworking the 'banned' ones but as someone else mentioned, what's the point when they can't be actively promoted via title, blurb or cover image.  Oh well, it was fun while it lasted and the books made a decent profit.  Shame to see the work go to waste though in terms of ongoing sales.  What a huge opportunity for someone with resources to create a place all our outcast books can go.


----------



## thesmallprint

This is the lead story in the Technology section of the BBC website (extract):



> Retailer Amazon has removed several abuse-themed e-books from its Kindle Store after a report highlighted titles depicting rape, incest and bestiality.
> 
> Titles such as Taking My Drunk Daughter had been on sale.
> 
> Amazon and Barnes & Noble both say they are removing books found by technology news site The Kernel, but many others still remain, the BBC has found.
> 
> WHSmith and Kobo, which feature titles with similar themes, are yet to respond to requests for comment.
> 
> The BBC found that on Amazon's store, the search function automatically suggested explicit topics to users typing seemingly innocuous keywords - without age verification taking place.
> 
> Amazon has not responded to the BBC's request for comment on the issue, except to confirm that the specific books listed by The Kernel had been removed.
> 
> Barnes & Noble said in a statement the titles were "in violation" of its policy on content offered in the NOOK Bookstore and were in the process of being removed.
> 
> "When there are violations to the content policy that are brought to our attention, either through our internal process or from a customer or external source, we have a rapid response team in place to appropriately categorize or remove the content in accordance with our policy," it said.
> 
> Justice Minister Damian Green told the BBC "the government shares the public's concerns about the availability of harmful material."


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

I'm curious, is Amazon's "policy" having a disparate impact on women writers? If so, women are a protected class in the United States.  Since the vast majority of erotica writers and readers are women, how has Amazon's newest sweep impacted the income of women writers depending on this "women's genre" to feed their families and pay their bills? This is something to think about.


----------



## Avis Black

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> I'm curious, is Amazon's "policy" having a disparate impact on women writers? If so, women are a protected class in the United States. Since the vast majority of erotica writers and readers are women, how has Amazon's newest sweep impacted the income of women writers depending on this "women's genre" to feed their families and pay their bills? This is something to think about.


Amazon doesn't like it if women have sexual thoughts. Not even fictional ones.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

WHSmith has now declared they are blocking all self-publishers. http://www.whsmith.co.uk/ I suspect that they are the first, but won't be the last. How many self-publishers are part of a protected class? Women, racial minorities, disabled, the poor (although I don't believe economic class is protected)? Since traditional publishing has been exclusive, locking out many women and racial minorities (whether they intend to or not), is it true that self-publishing has in fact a disproportionate number of people who are part of a protected class? And if that is true, could such drastic measures (such as blocking self-publishers) be having a heavy impact on these protected classes? Where is this data? How do we collect it?


----------



## Avis Black

I've just realized that Fifty Shades of Grey would likely have been banned by Amazon under their current jihad.  In its original form it was an indie publication, a POD that came out via The Writers' Coffee Shop, so it wouldn't have had the shield of a trad company.  Considering that erotica has always been a big seller for publishers, Amazon's chalked up another proud triumphant in their long history of losing money because of their ideology.  

Yep, once Amazon has everything all good and banned, everything awful will disappear from the planet, and we'll all be sprouting rainbows and riding unicorns.  Non-sexually, of course.


----------



## RaeC

Erotica's served its purpose: driving up ebook sales, getting large quantities of "I love the feel of paper" people to buy kindles, providing "instant" success stories to inspire self-pubs from other genres to get in on the fun, and giving Amazon a vicious leg up in the overall market. Now that that's done, whatevs.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

Meanwhile, my two tentacle books are still there and not even in the adult dungeon.
I think I'm next, though, I've jinxed myself by writing this!

  

ETA: Since I sell maybe two a year, maybe they haven't spotted them yet!


----------



## swolf

> Justice Minister Damian Green told the BBC "the government shares the public's concerns about the availability of harmful material."


Scary.


----------



## mrv01d

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> I'm curious, is Amazon's "policy" having a disparate impact on women writers? If so, women are a protected class in the United States. Since the vast majority of erotica writers and readers are women, how has Amazon's newest sweep impacted the income of women writers depending on this "women's genre" to feed their families and pay their bills? This is something to think about.


Yes it does affect a disproportionate number of women, although there are men. However, the US doesn't consider women a protected class, we don't even warrant wage equality.

There are several sexist issues wrapped up in the latest round of book banning, but no one has picked up on that story.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

Here is a list of protected classes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class Women are on that list. I'm working on a survey right now to help collect demographic data.

ETA: Here the form for collecting demographic data on self-publishers. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1P5DztjnhIAnZpG1z9LTAmZ-R93ztn29japa10FtSoPo/viewform


----------



## GUTMAN

MegHarris said:


> Absolutely. If they do a filter like this, erotica authors need to use it, and to correctly label their stuff "adult." If they don't, then Amazon should lower the ban hammer. But honestly, I don't think many erotica authors would have a problem with their stuff being labeled "adult"-- as Diana & Lacey pointed out, it would actually help sales in many cases. The reason people are ducking the "adult" filter isn't because they have a problem with their stuff being labeled adult, but because it's implemented erratically, and because it makes your book really hard to find in and sort of cheats by making casual readers think your book isn't on Amazon at all. If Amazon consistently put adult books into an adult area, it'd be easier for people who want them to find them. Of course there will still be people who try to avoid it, but that can be remedied pretty easily by warning/freezing of accounts, I think.


I'm confused, so please help me: don't customers who want erotica titles assume that one has to search under the "adult" label? And aren't most sales generated by fans of the genre, not casual readers?

An honest question. I don't understand why you'd vanish if you were in an adult category. I mean. folks that want sex toys know where to look--don't folks who want erotica?


----------



## RaeC

I'd argue a good portion of casual readers enjoy erotica as much as anyone else. But I think the filter she was referring to is the Adult Dungeon, which makes certain titles invisible unless a consumer specifically searches for it by name. They also won't appear in "Also Boughts". So it's not even a true filter so much as it is a, well, dungeon, with limited access. (someone correct me if I'm wrong here)

And let's not even get into categories. I think the vast majority of erotica writers have categorized their books correctly, yet Amazon's algorithms allow the books to come up during innocent (whatever that means) searches. Since erotic works shouldn't be, imo, restricted to a single genre any more than any other works, some of this is understandable, but still avoidable. And yes, many erotica authors (and authors of many, many other genres, let's not forget) try to game the system, but the system's rules continue to be so vague such that the game was primed to be rigged from both sides.

Pornography 
We don't accept pornography or offensive depictions of graphic sexual acts. 

Offensive Content 
What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect. 

What does that even mean?


----------



## 71089

mrv01d said:


> Yes it does affect a disproportionate number of women, although there are men. However, the US doesn't consider women a protected class, we don't even warrant wage equality.
> 
> There are several sexist issues wrapped up in the latest round of book banning, but no one has picked up on that story.


? Which ones? I'm curious, because it seems this is going on on a much bigger scale then we/I previously thought.


----------



## mrv01d

Being filtered will NOT bring up your title even if you search for it.

You have to know how to navigate behind the filter and even then your title will not necessarily be the first search result.

It's a subversion of the search engine that is not disclosed to consumers.

M


----------



## CoraBuhlert

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> WHSmith has now declared they are blocking all self-publishers. http://www.whsmith.co.uk/ I suspect that they are the first, but won't be the last. How many self-publishers are part of a protected class? Women, racial minorities, disabled, the poor (although I don't believe economic class is protected)? Since traditional publishing has been exclusive, locking out many women and racial minorities (whether they intend to or not), is it true that self-publishing has in fact a disproportionate number of people who are part of a protected class? And if that is true, could such drastic measures (such as blocking self-publishers) be having a heavy impact on these protected classes? Where is this data? How do we collect it?


I don't sell a whole lot via W.H. Smith (if your books are on Kobo, any Kobo UK sales may well be W.H. Smith), but this blanket ban infuriates me, especially since it's all due to some jerk at The Kernel being freaked out by some of the more out there pseudo incest. I'm also troubled by the complete disregard towards the affected authors, who are real living human beings, often women, making their livelihood with their writing and not "sick and disturbed individuals" as the commenters at the Daily Mail or Metro UK assert. It's probably just another example of the "authors are not human beings" thinking that is also behind many of the author bullying cases. And things like the W.H. Smith blanket ban are precisely the reason why I speak up on behalf of erotica authors, even though I don't write erotica.

I think the best course of action would be to raise awareness of the authors whose livelihood these outraged British citizens are affecting, many of whom are women whose families depend on their writing income. I don't think _The Kernel_ (macho tech site) or the _Daily Mail_ (for the outraged middle classes) would care, but the BBC might.

If indie authors were to write to W.H. Smith (I probably will), this might be effective as well. BTW, W.H. Smith is no stranger to banning. They banned the famous SF mag New Worlds in the late 1960s, because a W.H. Smith executive named James Baron was outraged by a Norman Spinrad story called "Bug Jack Baron" in the mag, never mind that Spinrad is American and had never heard of the Smith executive.

Finally, Jeremy Duns, the spy writer (whose book I guarantee contain violence) who kicked all this off is very active on Twitter. Anybody who's active there want to ask the bloke if he's proud of himself now for ruining the livelihood of other writers?


----------



## David Adams

As I posted in the other thread, this erotica short was removed for sale because of its cover.

This is by far the most tame erotica cover I have, and possibly the most tame one out of the history of erotica ever. Attempts to get further information out of Amazon resulted only in a copy/paste of the original email, except that it also implied I might have my totally and utterly unrelated Kindle Worlds titles removed from sale too.


----------



## Skye Hunter

Got my email today - had two books removed for title/description. I adjusted them(had brackets that specified stepfather erotica, etc.) and adjusted the description to remove all mention of that and republished so hope those go through.


----------



## brie.mcgill

Has anyone been blocked specifically due to content and not title/cover/blurb?


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

David Adams said:


> As I posted in the other thread, this erotica short was removed for sale because of its cover.
> 
> This is by far the most tame erotica cover I have, and possibly the most tame one out of the history of erotica ever. Attempts to get further information out of Amazon resulted only in a copy/paste of the original email, except that it also implied I might have my totally and utterly unrelated Kindle Worlds titles removed from sale too.


WHAT? They're threatening to remove your non-erotica titles too?
They're becoming crazy!
Can you please share that part of the email?


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

CoraBuhlert said:


> I think the best course of action would be to raise awareness of the authors whose livelihood these outraged British citizens are affecting, many of whom are women whose families depend on their writing income. I don't think _The Kernel_ (macho tech site) or the _Daily Mail_ (for the outraged middle classes) would care, but the BBC might.


I think this is a good idea. But I also think it's important for US-based writers impacted by these moves to contact CNN, CBS, and others and point out the fact that UK censorship policies are in fact impacting what Americans write and read.



David Adams said:


> As I posted in the other thread, this erotica short was removed for sale because of its cover.
> 
> This is by far the most tame erotica cover I have, and possibly the most tame one out of the history of erotica ever. Attempts to get further information out of Amazon resulted only in a copy/paste of the original email, except that it also implied I might have my totally and utterly unrelated Kindle Worlds titles removed from sale too.


As I mentioned earlier these incremental attacks on writers will only spread. This is why I don't engage in conversations about what type of writing is "disgusting" and which is not -- it's irrelevant because ideas about taste are subjective. I've put together a survey to collect demographic data on self-publishers because I think it's important to know who we are collectively so that we can protect our interests. See the link in my signature.


----------



## David Adams

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> WHAT? They're threatening to remove your non-erotica titles too?
> They're becoming crazy!
> Can you please share that part of the email?


Well they only implied it. Here's what went down.

I received this email:










I sent them this email:










They responded with this email, which is almost word for word copy/paste of the first email with no further useful information, except that it was titled "Your Kindle Worlds Story" and came from the Kindle Worlds team:










Why they contacted the Kindle Worlds team, and why the email title referred to Kindle Worlds, I have no idea -- but it's kind of disturbing. I make almost nothing on erotica, probably five sales a month, but I'm doing pretty well with my Kindle Worlds stuff. If they take that down because of this... I don't even see how that's defensible.


----------



## Guest

David Adams said:


> Well they only implied it. Here's what went down.
> 
> I received this email:


Welcome to the typical Amazon runaround. Don't waste your time emailing them unless you're trying to go from blocked to draft status.

You're lucky they told you the cover was the problem; most don't get that and spend days changing and uploading their manuscript many, many times.

This is the first I've seen them mention "cover" in the email. They must have gotten a lot of complaints, or realized the impact they were having not so much on our bottom lines, but theirs.


----------



## Sarma

Hi, I'm a new board member and erotica author. I had 10 titles blocked on Thursday, mainly for PI. Today I was sent another email saying that they had all been set to draft status and listed what was offensive about them. This was all on their own, I never emailed them. None of the reasons they listed were content, it was all cover/title/blurb.

I'll resubmit one of them because it's a rather tame, non-PI 50K novel, but I'll leave the others alone. I'm a little paranoid, obviously, but it seems strange that they put them into draft without my request. I'm not going to resubmit anything that contains PI, because they obviously don't want it. I feel a little baited here, like they want me to keep pushing the issue.

So that's my story so far. If LGBT becomes "taboo" I'm going to have a big problem. I've read pretty much read this entire thread, but has anyone successfully resubmitted a PI story with cleaned title cover blurb? It seems no. Content matters now too.


----------



## Zelah Meyer

I don't have any erotica published either - but I wanted to share my sympathies with all those caught up in this. This sucks, and is very concerning.

I really hope that things improve for people soon.



CoraBuhlert said:


> I also view this as part of a general creeping decline of sexual freedom in the western world and it worries me. I always used to be something of a prude, so why do I suddenly find myself on the radical fringe of sexual liberty?


This. I'm in a similar boat. I read and write sweet romance - but this culture change worries me on so many levels. I can see the risk of hard won freedoms slipping away.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> "I also view this as part of a general creeping decline of sexual freedom in the western world and it worries me. I always used to be something of a prude, so why do I suddenly find myself on the radical fringe of sexual liberty?"


I'm not sure about the rest of the West, but in the US we had the US Supreme Court 2003 Lawrence decision, the June13 decision striking down DOMA, and June13 refusal to take the California Prop 8 case. And there are now 14 states with gay marriage.

Where's the decline?


----------



## ebjones

I've been following this thread fairly closely. The Amazon content department set two of my stories back to 'draft' recently, and I just resubmitted one of them with an 'I've been censored -- Support free speech' badge on the cover. They let it through.

http://www.ebwrites.com/2013/10/14/amazon-and-the-morally-outraged-corporate-nanny-state/ 









It would be interesting to see if we could harness more public support by making it clear to our readers that the work they are reading has been censored to fit ever-changing corporate norms of decency. And for those of us who tweet / Facebook, social media is a good way to spread the word as well.

If anyone wants to put an 'I've been censored -- Support free speech' badge on a title that got banned, feel free to use the high-res jpg or original PSD file. No need for any attribution. Just spread the word about what's going on. I link to both from my blog post.

All the best,
EB


----------



## sethdaniels

@emilycantore, I actually did that to one of my covers for Portuguese.  I honestly wish they would just ban all erotica on amazon so that the readers, and there are a lot of them, would complain for a change.


----------



## Gone To Croatan

Terrence OBrien said:


> I'm not sure about the rest of the West, but in the US we had the US Supreme Court 2003 Lawrence decision, the June13 decision striking down DOMA, and June13 refusal to take the California Prop 8 case. And there are now 14 states with gay marriage.


How does that relate to book censorship?

I don't buy erotica and don't write it, but it's always been the justification to get a foot in the door for censorship. I don't know whether it's actually happened, but, for example, recently the UK government wanted to put compulsory porn filters on all ISP connections, because porn is icky and stuff. Once the filter is in place, everyone but the most naive knows that, pretty soon, they'll be extending it to censor anything else they dislike.

That's why we have to support the people who do sell erotica, even if we don't like it much.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Edward M. Grant said:


> How does that relate to book censorship?
> 
> I don't buy erotica and don't write it, but it's always been the justification to get a foot in the door for censorship. I don't know whether it's actually happened, but, for example, recently the UK government wanted to put compulsory porn filters on all ISP connections, because porn is icky and stuff. Once the filter is in place, everyone but the most naive knows that, pretty soon, they'll be extending it to censor anything else they dislike.
> 
> That's why we have to support the people who do sell erotica, even if we don't like it much.


I dont know how it relates to book censorship. What do you think?

I was responding to Coras statement that I quoted: _I also view this as part of a general creeping decline of sexual freedom in the western world and it worries me. I always used to be something of a prude, so why do I suddenly find myself on the radical fringe of sexual liberty?_

You might ask her.



> I don't buy erotica and don't write it, but it's always been the justification to get a foot in the door for censorship.


Where has it been a foot in the door. What happened next?


----------



## WillemThomas

Looks like it's finally my turn: my one biggest seller has been moved to draft status with an email stating the cover is inappropriate - a couple, fully dressed, embracing each other.

This story has been on sale for almost 3 years and has sold over 15,000 copies - 80% of that at the 'Zon. I suspect the word 'Babysitter' in the title is the real flag, here.

Surprised they haven't hit the rest of my catalog, which is sizable - yet.  

Maybe it's time I make my planned move to non-erotic fiction sooner....


----------



## PalomaEroti

My first post here too. Hi! I've been following this discussion with interest. i have large numbers of erotica titles on sale at Amazon - correction: HAD - and over the past few days have seen email after email come in, removing almost all of them from sale in waves of 5 - 15 titles at a time. I doubt whether my last few on sale will last this week, frankly, as they are NOT simply going after PI titles as I figured at first. No, they are going after ANYTHING that looks even remotely obscene.

The emails tell me this book does not fit our guidelines in the following respects: then usually it says 'cover, title, description' or one or 2-3 of these. Not noticed any content issues yet. But perhaps they wait until you reload before removing it again for THAT.

I will not be doing what others are and making generic smut covers with generic titles and descriptions. First because it's a waste of my time, and second because it's an act of submission to those who want to crush our souls and take away our freedom as individuals, simply because we don't think like the Borg. And you know what will happen. In a few weeks or months, people will complain about the generic titles too, and down they will come again.

And sales were already aybsmal. Punters not knowing what's in each book or how to identify their favourite fetish is going to destroy the few sales we had left after they made erotica like this 'invisible'.

I shall wait to see if any of my other titles under other names, that are less fringe but still erotic, get slamdunked. But I can see us all going back to the brown paper bag hard copy sales, advertised online, paid for via Paypal, and sent discreetly to home addresses. And the financial pain from this will be intense. Incomes for families already suffering in the recession are going to disappear overnight.

Do they give a d*mn if our livelihoods are suffering? No, you can bet they don't. Because we are not worth their sympathy. We are vile little creatures trying to scratch a living writing erotica. How disgusting of us! In their minds we deserve to be crushed and for our kids to go hungry. Yet this will be the equivalent of a large car manufacturer suddenly going belly-up and lettings thousands of workers go without warning.

It's back to the 1950s, folks. It's Pleasantville out there. Lock up your porn stash!


----------



## ssanchez911

They banned two of mine and blocked one before it was even published.  The two they banned had been on for several months.  It said I could change them and resubmit, but I was leery about doing that, for fear that I would be blocked completely.  Ironically all three of them had to do with stepdad/stepdaughter relations.  So, I am thinking that they are now considering it to be illegal behavior.  Oh well, moving on.


----------



## WillemThomas

Anyone with good selling Werewolf or Billionaire titles getting hit, too? Was thinking of trying my hand at these before this all happened.


----------



## a_g

I'm still doing okay on mine. No emails, no draft/pulled status so far. *knocks on wood*

But a question to those of you who have been and had to rework your cover/blurb.

When you issue a new cover, are you updating all other distribution channels (provided you don't go through smashwords for the big ones)? 

I use Smash to distribute to all except eRomance, Kobo, Kindle and B&N which I hand upload and now I'm preparing for the worst and eventually getting hit by Amazon. If I revamp a cover, I'm wondering about reuploading covers for the other channels. Which means I need to recompile the .mobi and the .epub and the pdfs and reupload the entire book. 

...what a pain.


----------



## 71089

WillemThomas said:


> Anyone with good selling Werewolf or Billionaire titles getting hit, too? Was thinking of trying my hand at these before this all happened.


as if the word 'billionaire' has anything to do with taboo erotica.

Come on, people, please use your brains


----------



## a_g

emilycantore said:


> I've been thinking of doing something like this to all my titles:


...so...tempting. SO...tempting....


----------



## mrv01d

WillemThomas said:


> Anyone with good selling Werewolf or Billionaire titles getting hit, too? Was thinking of trying my hand at these before this all happened.


There was at least one that I know of but I think they were using some no-no words in the title, so it wasn't so much the wolfy goodness, but the title wording.

My concern is the illiterate gnats determining what is and isn't okay for people to read have said that werewolf books are bestiality so any shapeshifter books may be a potential issue.

Especially now that we've seen that Kobo and Amazon are the media's b*tches. They'll react to anything the media says, whether it's true or not.


----------



## Lana Amore

mrv01d said:


> Especially now that we've seen that Kobo and Amazon are the media's b*tches. They'll react to anything the media says, whether it's true or not.


I'm now having this fantasy that Smashwords becomes the most popular ebook site in the world after all this. Somehow I think they'd shrug the media off and roll around happily in the money.


----------



## DanaDrake

I received an email from our friend Carlos F. last night. I replied using the title-submission address with a respectful message asking for it to be unlocked for editing. Imagine my surprise when I found the title was still for sale... Interesting.

Dana


----------



## WillemThomas

ClarissaWild said:


> Come on, people, please use your brains


What?


----------



## MindyWilde

Already a separate thread but for those of us following this one I just got an email from D2D that Kobo has kicked them out completely including all genres!


----------



## mrv01d

DDark said:


> This is a very long thread which I haven't read entirely yet, so maybe it's been mentioned. Readers are stating that the titles are being deleted from their Kindles, so it's not just banning books from sale.


No this is new. What are people saying?


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi

WOW.


----------



## Lana Amore

DDark said:


> This is a very long thread which I haven't read entirely yet, so maybe it's been mentioned. Readers are stating that the titles are being deleted from their Kindles, so it's not just banning books from sale.


But they BOUGHT them already! Is that legal? Is it possible? (Or are they just taking them out of lending libraries?)


----------



## WordSaladTongs

DDark said:


> Readers are stating that the titles are being deleted from their Kindles, so it's not just banning books from sale.


If this is true (not doubting you, but you know how things sometimes get exaggerated or misunderstood during times like this) it COULD be the thing that finally motivates readers to complain which could ACTUALLY make a difference.


----------



## Jash

DDark said:


> This is a very long thread which I haven't read entirely yet, so maybe it's been mentioned. Readers are stating that the titles are being deleted from their Kindles, so it's not just banning books from sale.


Whose readers are stating it where? This is a pretty big deal so any more information you have would be appreciated.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

DDark said:


> This is a very long thread which I haven't read entirely yet, so maybe it's been mentioned. Readers are stating that the titles are being deleted from their Kindles, so it's not just banning books from sale.


I would request some concrete evidence of that. Given the flap over _1984_ in the first year or so of the Kindle boom, I would be EXTREMELY surprised if that were to happen. So readers may be 'stating it' but I'm not convinced by that. 

For those who came in late, an ebook version of _1984_ was uploaded for sale to Amazon. People bought it. It was cheap. When Amazon learned that the person who'd offered it for sale did not have the rights to do so they took DOWN the book. They also removed it from the account of everyone who'd purchased it -- and gave them a credit back somewhat in excess of the original cost. AND, they remotely removed it from kindles that it had been loaded onto wirelessly. That Last bit -- especially considering the title in question -- got a lot of attention!  Amazon listened to its customers then and posted a public apology acknowledging that they'd gone too far and promising that they'd not do that again.

There were later instances of books being loaded by folks who did not have the rights to do so. I had gotten a couple of them. In both cases, I got email explaining that they were not legitimate offerings and advising that my account would be credited for the purchase price and the book would be removed. And I was asked to remove them from any Kindle they might be on. But they did NOT remove them automatically.


----------



## JuliMonroe

I just popped onto Mobile Reads to see if anyone was mentioning books being removed from ereaders. Nothing. Folks there are usually on stuff like that quickly. I'm also doubting the removing books thing. But I'll keep poking around.


----------



## Jash

JuliMonroe said:


> I just popped onto Mobile Reads to see if anyone was mentioning books being removed from ereaders. Nothing. Folks there are usually on stuff like that quickly. I'm also doubting the removing books thing. But I'll keep poking around.


I wonder if it's due to title/cover changes? People are updating books that have been changed to avoid being blocked and suddenly the title and/or cover they expect to see isn't there.


----------



## Lydniz

Here's a nice 'I don't believe in censorship (but actually I do)' article for you.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/14/depraved-ebooks-pornography-censorship-booksellers


----------



## Sara Fawkes

I'm keeping an eye on this whole situation. I have many, many friends whose works are being affected - Kobo has removed entire libraries, some of which barely had any sex in them at all, and Amazon seems to want to clear the slate too. But if they start removing books I've already bought as some kind of moral policing, that's crossing the line even if they "promise" a refund.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

That brings up an interesting question that makes this situation even more complex.

When a consumer buys a book, Amazon keeps a version of that book on their servers forever. The author may pull the book off Amazon, but Amazon keeps the book on their servers for the benefit of consumers who have purchased it. This is what allows us to restore our libraries after Aunt Harriet has backed up over our Kindles, or when we buy a new iPad and want to read our Amazon purchases..

It would be interesting to see if a consumer can still download a title he purchased even after it has been removed from sales pages in the last few days.


----------



## JPGrider

I'm not sure if I posted on this thread already. If I did. I'm sorry. I know I posted it on a different thread. But Amazon is pulling books that aren't even erotica. Mine is a young adult with a picture of a girl on it (her shoulder is bare). My cover was found in violation. Now I can't sell my book. I tried to get in but my book has been in review. It stinks. I can't even change the cover if I wanted to and they haven't responded to me yet. It's killing me. The cover is the one in my signature. The blonde girl. So is Amazon really pulling ANYTHING they deem unfit?


----------



## JPGrider

Fig-leafed?


----------



## MaxCherish

All our Writing Life Kobo books have been pulled as best as I can tell. They show up as Published on the eBooks tab, but there are none for sale on the Dashboard tab. A quick search only turns up the free ebook we published at Smashwords that was delivered to Kobo.

All of our Amazon titles seem to be ok for the time being. We'll see if that holds as the week goes forward. I've got my folks looking at what it would take to re-release all our titles on Smashwords if that turns out to the be the only ebook marketplace willing to stand its ground.

With respect to those clinging to the fearmongering The Kernel started with, I think it's worth pointing out some basic facts.


This is selective censorship at work targeting self-pub'd and indie pub'd books. There is no sign of cleansing shelves of _abusive_ stories like "Fifty Shades of Grey" or John Carpenter horror novels.
The initial complaint that a "UK search for 'daddy' brought up pornography on WH Smith's website" is totally valid. To comply with British law, when dealing with an anonymous user, WH Smith should have filtered and excluded all search results from categories including erotica, romance, medicine, history, movies, television, science fiction, and horror. Yes, the state of British censorship is that broad. While I have problems with the idea of plunking a 5 year old down and asking him to run search queries for me, WH Smith is at fault for not complying with the law. WH Smith should have implemented a login and age verification requirement before presenting any potential adult content to a user.
The content being removed by Amazon, Kobo, WH Smith, and others is both legal and well understood content. It might not be stuff you or I like to read, but that doesn't mean it's illegal. Furthermore, to truly comply consistently with _porn_ as The Kernel defines it, we'd need to take down the usual classics like "Lolita," anything by Charles Dickens, anything by Mark Twain, and pretty much the entire shapeshifter and horror genres. You won't see that happen because that would crush profits at traditional publishers as well as retailers.

Frankly, I'm extremely disappointed in Kobo. This was a clear opportunity for them to support the Writing Life platform, clarify that by receiving a feed from Kobo for publications that it was the responsibility of WH Smith to implement appropriate search controls to meet local laws, and clarify compliance for those titles that truly do step outside the boundaries.

Kobo didn't even take the time to cave to demands. It's very clear that they immediately supported WH Smith's assertion that indie and self pub'd authors were to blame, and then began obliterating the Writing Life catalog in a haphazard and ineffective manner.

For all the people who told me that getting our titles on Kobo was good for the diversity of the marketplace, I will always point at this event as a watershed moment when Kobo proved themselves unworthy of author support. For all of my Canadian friends who have long told me how much Amazon hates them and how Kobo has been their preferred vendor, I have already pointed to what is happening and they are in shock.

~Max~
Cherish Desire Erotica


----------



## swolf

Here's an example of the crap we're going through.

When they block a book, they send you an email letting you know where the problem is: Title, description, cover image, and/or Content.

Here's one I got:

Detention Seduction (ASIN: B00EXVP15Q) - Title, Description, Cover Image

And here's the cover they're having a problem with:










I asked around, and it seems that some of the reviewers are including the cover as a problem if there's a problem with a title, since the title is on the cover. However, my previous batch (in a different email) listed problems with titles but none of them listed a problem with the cover.

So, now,we have to figure out whether they actually do have a problem with the cover image, or we just ran into a reviewer who is confused. Is Jeanne around? I need a mentalist.

Fun times.


----------



## Lana Amore

Oh, I'll never post to Kobo again, no matter what genre I write (and yes, erotica writers can write other things, shocking I know)  Any distributor can have Trad Pubs, exclusive content is where it's at and that's where self-pub comes in.   

Sorry Kobo, you'll always just be a pale and money-losing imitation of Amazon from this day on, minus any content that might have set you apart.


----------



## 31842

MaxCherish said:


> The initial complaint that a "UK search for 'daddy' brought up pornography on WH Smith's website" is totally valid. To comply with British law, when dealing with an anonymous user, WH Smith should have filtered and excluded all search results from categories including erotica, romance, medicine, history, movies, television, science fiction, and horror. Yes, the state of British censorship is that broad. While I have problems with the idea of plunking a 5 year old down and asking him to run search queries for me, WH Smith is at fault for not complying with the law. WH Smith should have implemented a login and age verification requirement before presenting any potential adult content to a user.


I feel like herein lies the crux of the "everyone simmer down" matter. It sucks that there has been a wholesale freeze on indie books, BUT this is a legal issue which falls on the head of WH Smith and I can't fault them for shutting everything down. I have full confidence they will sort it out, but I think it is just going to take some time. From a legal perspective, broad decisive action looks much better in the courts if they have to defend themselves. It will hold a whole lot more water than, "Well... we did some stopgap measures, but we didn't want to anger any of our self-publishers."

I was thinking this is a bit like being in a bar when suddenly it is raided for serving underage patrons. The bar is on the hook and no one is going to get another drink until everyone gets carded. A bunch of us are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. So, all we can do is get out our IDs and enjoy our water until the cops come and shine their flashlights on our wrinkles.


----------



## Monique

To those who are vowing never to darken Kobo's door again, aren't you reacting in the same knee-jerky way you're accusing them of doing?

It's frustrating not knowing what's going on, but before we all start our "I said, goodnight, sir!"s, maybe it would be best to find out what's happened and what we can expect moving forward.


----------



## swolf

KateDanley said:


> BUT this is a legal issue which falls on the head of WH Smith and I can't fault them for shutting everything down


I can. What, did they wake up the other day and suddenly realize they were selling porn?

They knew it was there, and they were making money off of it. Probably lots of money. Someone shined a light on them, and it's "Whoa, what's that?"

What a joke.


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> Here's an example of the crap we're going through.
> 
> When they block a book, they send you an email letting you know where the problem is: Title, description, cover image, and/or Content.
> 
> Here's one I got:
> 
> Detention Seduction (ASIN: B00EXVP15Q) - Title, Description, Cover Image
> 
> And here's the cover they're having a problem with:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I asked around, and it seems that some of the reviewers are including the cover as a problem if there's a problem with a title, since the title is on the cover. However, my previous batch (in a different email) listed problems with titles but none of them listed a problem with the cover.
> 
> So, now,we have to figure out whether they actually do have a problem with the cover image, or we just ran into a reviewer who is confused. Is Jeanne around? I need a mentalist.
> 
> Fun times.


Since you asked, here goes.
Yes, your model is fully clothed. She does look a bit young. 
With the title and the cover, I can see where a censor could hit it.
Erotic inlaws. + Detention seduction. + Looks like an underage model.=possible child p0rn.
Note I have no idea what the book is about but it looks like a girl got in trouble at school and will do anything to get out of detention.


----------



## swolf

cinisajoy said:


> Since you asked, here goes.
> Yes, your model is fully clothed. She does look a bit young.
> With the title and the cover, I can see where a censor could hit it.
> Erotic inlaws. + Detention seduction. + Looks like an underage model.=possible child p0rn.
> Note I have no idea what the book is about but it looks like a girl got in trouble at school and will do anything to get out of detention.


I think calling her underage is stretching it. She looks like she's in her 20's to me.

Here's the stock image page: http://www.123rf.com/photo_18200968_closeup-seriously-blonde-businesswoman-portrait-wearing-eyeglasses-standing-near-wall.html

It's titled "closeup seriously blonde businesswoman portrait wearing eyeglasses standing near wall"

And in the story, she's the teacher, not the student. I wasn't looking for a teenage girl for the cover.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

swolf said:


> Here's an example of the crap we're going through.
> 
> When they block a book, they send you an email letting you know where the problem is: Title, description, cover image, and/or Content.
> 
> Here's one I got:
> 
> Detention Seduction (ASIN: B00EXVP15Q) - Title, Description, Cover Image
> 
> And here's the cover they're having a problem with:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I asked around, and it seems that some of the reviewers are including the cover as a problem if there's a problem with a title, since the title is on the cover. However, my previous batch (in a different email) listed problems with titles but none of them listed a problem with the cover.
> 
> So, now,we have to figure out whether they actually do have a problem with the cover image, or we just ran into a reviewer who is confused. Is Jeanne around? I need a mentalist.
> 
> Fun times.


They can't very well say, "Hey, write whatever you want as long as we can pretend to not know anything about it and collect the money." So, they have to be a bit cryptic for the sake of plausible deniability.

I haven't read the description, but the other two elements seem clear:

Title: Detention Seduction suggests an underage person being seduced.
Cover: Ditto (the title), and probably Erotic In-Laws, suggesting either pseudo-incest or in-law incest. (I think the picture is okay.)

YMMV


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

Well, Kobo has removed my entire catalog from their search engines. Not that I'm particularly upset since Kobo doesn't bring in much revenue, but I am curious to see what they plan to do next. I do see some other self-publisher's books online though.


----------



## Claudia King

I've managed to re-publish my bundle that was censored for the "His Girlfriend's Daddy" title it included. I renamed the offending story "His Girlfriend's Fantasy", and cut down on the usage of the word "daddy" in the description.
Fingers crossed it'll stay up, but if it got through the approval process I'm hoping everything's fine now.

I'm just lucky most of my titles are eRom rather than straight erotica, and most of the kinky stuff I've published doesn't fall under these new guidelines. I really feel for you guys with dozens of titles getting hit by this, it must be an absolute nightmare to deal with such a big chunk of your livelihood being put on hold all at once.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> I can. What, did they wake up the other day and suddenly realize they were selling porn?


Perhaps they woke up one day and discovered they had been caught, and it was time for some huffing and puffing to limit their loss.


----------



## swolf

Andrew Ashling said:


> They can't very well say, "Hey, write whatever you want as long as we can pretend to not know anything about it and collect the money." So, they have to be a bit cryptic for the sake of plausible deniability.
> 
> I haven't read the description, but the other two elements seem clear:
> 
> Title: Detention Seduction suggests an underage person being seduced.
> Cover: Ditto (the title), and probably Erotic In-Laws, suggesting either pseudo-incest or in-law incest. (I think the picture is okay.)
> 
> YMMV


Yes, I understand why 'Detention' caused the Title to be rejected. But I've had other books with rejected titles that didn't mention a problem with the cover image.

And In-laws is okay, since I republished a few last night with that in the title and it got through. (Including that identical yellow sidebar.)

And In-law incest?


----------



## Andrew Ashling

swolf said:


> Yes, I understand why 'Detention' caused the Title to be rejected. But I've had other books with rejected titles that didn't mention a problem with the cover image.
> 
> And In-laws is okay, since I republished a few last night with that in the title and it got through. (Including that identical yellow sidebar.)
> 
> And In-law incest?


 

Did they mention the image, or just the cover in general? I think it will be enough to just change the titles.

In-law incest: Well, since they're in-laws, they're sort of family, which makes it sort of incest.
Granted, you have to try to enter the dirty minds of those sex-obsessed sanctimonious prudes.

Going to take a shower now.


----------



## swolf

Boyd said:


> As a mandatory reporter, I know a bit about our state laws... One of them is no matter WHAT THE AGE OF CONSENT... sexual relations between a parental figure, teacher etc... is deemed child abuse. Full stop, end of story. Only exception is College age, but that is iffy at best; I imagine Michigan isn't the only state that treats it like this.


That would be a reason to block the content, and maybe the title and blurb, not the cover image.


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> I think calling her underage is stretching it. She looks like she's in her 20's to me.
> 
> Here's the stock image page: http://www.123rf.com/photo_18200968_closeup-seriously-blonde-businesswoman-portrait-wearing-eyeglasses-standing-near-wall.html
> 
> It's titled "closeup seriously blonde businesswoman portrait wearing eyeglasses standing near wall"
> 
> And in the story, she's the teacher, not the student. I wasn't looking for a teenage girl for the cover.


Stay with me one minute and I will explain my logic. First that model looks too young to be the teacher. Second that is the standard "Catholic girl school uniform shirt". I guesstimate that model could be anywhere from 16-24.
So those factors taken with the title (note the title is important in my call) could lead one to draw the wrong conclusion like I did. 
That does not look like a business woman to me no matter what the photo is called. Good luck with your books. I hope you do get them back up. And yes one of your books is in my TBR.


----------



## swolf

Andrew Ashling said:


> Did they mention the image, or just the cover in general? I think it will be enough to just change the titles.


The email specifies Cover Image:



> Detention Seduction (ASIN: B00EXVP15Q) - Title, Description, Cover Image





Andrew Ashling said:


> In-law incest: Well, since they're in-laws, they're sort of family, which makes it sort of incest.
> Granted, you have to try to enter the dirty minds of those sex-obsessed sanctimonious prudes.


Please, don't give them any ideas.


----------



## swolf

cinisajoy said:


> Stay with me one minute and I will explain my logic. First that model looks too young to be the teacher. Second that is the standard "Catholic girl school uniform shirt". I guesstimate that model could be anywhere from 16-24.
> So those factors taken with the title (note the title is important in my call) could lead one to draw the wrong conclusion like I did.
> That does not look like a business woman to me no matter what the photo is called. Good luck with your books. I hope you do get them back up. And yes one of your books is in my TBR.


I'll allow that the Amazon reviewer may have had the same opinion as you do.


----------



## swolf

Boyd said:


> But your cover (title on your cover) implies that perhaps.


Yes, but as I've stated, I've had other book blocked because of the title but the cover wasn't mentioned.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

swolf said:


> The email specifies Cover Image


Sorry, in that case I got nothing.

The only way she could wear more clothes is putting on a balaclava. Or putting a brown paper bag over her head.


----------



## PalomaEroti

swolf said:


> I can. What, did they wake up the other day and suddenly realize they were selling porn?
> 
> They knew it was there, and they were making money off of it. Probably lots of money. Someone shined a light on them, and it's "Whoa, what's that?"


Too right. It's that scene with Inspector Reynaud in Casablanca when he blows the whistle and shuts down Rick's cafe, saying he's shocked to find gambling going on, and the croupier comes along with his winnings at that very moment ...


----------



## Lo/Roxie

Seems a handful of my taboo titles got smacked with the smut stick while we were in Houston this weekend. I'm sort of amused by the way they whacked installment one in a series but not the rest of the books.  

Earlier this year, I started to pull away from taboo erotica with a third publicly unclaimed pen name and tried to keep my main two pen names "clean" because I worried this was coming again. I haven't decided what I'll do with these books. I only make maybe $2-400 a month on them so they aren't a huge part of my income. I might do Kindle "clean" versions that expunge the super naughty bits and keep the originals at other outlets. IDK.


----------



## daringnovelist

tkkenyon said:


> If you use an image of a marital aid, an exact image on an item that is for sale on other parts of Amazon's site, what would happen?
> 
> Or a Georgia O'Keefe flower painting, for that matter.
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> TK aka BB


Search on "Chocolate Dildo" and see what happens....

However, unlike books, those items are much less likely to ever come up in a mistaken search.

Camille


----------



## Terrence OBrien

daringnovelist said:


> Search on "Chocolate Dildo" and see what happens....
> 
> However, unlike books, those items are much less likely to ever come up in a mistaken search.
> 
> Camille


 "When peanut M&M's made their debut, so did the tagline 'Melts in your mouth, not in your hand.' In 1960, M&M's added the yellow, red, and green colors."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%26M's


----------



## RaeC

Smashwords should be cleaning up like a sex-starved fat dude after a hot summer wedding.  Unfortunately, Smashwords' storefront has the aesthetic elegance of a sex-starved fat dude after a hot summer wedding.


----------



## ghostwriter80

If any of you feel compelled to sign the change.org petition relating to the ebook banning... goto this link:

http://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-barnes-and-noble-kobo-drop-the-clause-of-removing-erotica-and-self-published-indie-authors?share_id=ecrKvjPzoD&utm_campaign=twitter_link_action_box&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=share_petition


----------



## Book Master

Wow, I am totally blown away at how many reads and replies on this thread!!!!

BM


----------



## WordSaladTongs

DDark said:


> Barnes & Noble may actually benefit from all this since they don't seem to be taking the same actions (that I've heard). Can readers buy books directly from Createspace? And if they're removing the Kindle versions, why are they leaving the paperbacks up for sale?


You can buy paperbacks directly from Createspace and it's a much better margin for authors.


----------



## DanaDrake

I think we're over thinking this. "Censors" got a mandate to clean up the smut, with little to no real direction. I reworked one story and description, painted panties on a cover, and changed one cover pic. Most of this will pass in time, or at least subside. As far as the stated unacceptable topics go, I think they are here to stay. It's a matter of how far you can push the envelope. The hypocrisy of selling sex toys with lurid descriptions, on a site where they ban photos of what you can legally see on most beaches, really doesn't matter. This is their sandbox. I for one, want to play here. If I have to change some things to get the bully off my back, I'm okay with it.


----------



## ghostwriter80

E-mails from Barnes and Noble are starting to go out regarding publisher accounts being suspended.


----------



## KMatthew

Diana & Lacey said:


> Can you expand on this? Do you mean self publishers or publishers like small press? What exactly does the email say?


Yeah. I would love to know more about this. I'm half tempted to go pull down all of my PI titles, just in case.


----------



## swolf

lordoffajitas said:


> E-mails from Barnes and Noble are starting to go out regarding publisher accounts being suspended.


If this is true, they're a bunch of hypocrites. They're the only one of the major retailers that allows pure incest stories, and now they're going to suspend accounts because of it?

Unbelievable.


----------



## ghostwriter80

I have not been wrong yet. I'm working on getting a copy. Mean while here is my kobo account deletion email I just received. I found it greatly annoying. But it is their decision and I will abide by it. 

***********

Hi,

When you signed up with Kobo Writing Life, you agreed to our Terms and Conditions. 

The content you are uploading puts you in direct violation of these terms, specifically Section 5.1 (copied below):

5.1 You represent, warrant and covenant to Kobo that (i) you have the rights, power and privileges to execute, deliver and perform your obligations under these Terms and the execution, delivery and performance of these Terms have been duly authorized by Publisher; (ii) you have all necessary rights to make the grant and assignment of rights Publisher has made to Kobo under these Terms and its submission of the Works hereunder and the use of the Works in the eReading Service does not violate any obligation Publisher owes to any third party or infringe upon the intellectual property rights of any person, including the author of the Works; (iii) you will be solely responsible for obtaining and paying for any and all necessary clearances, rights and licenses for the Works to permit the exercise of the rights granted under these Terms without any further obligation by us, including any payments due to any other copyright holders, co-authors and/co-administrators; (iv) the Works do not and will not infringe upon any common law or statutory right in any other literary, dramatic or other material and no material in the Works violates any intellectual property rights or any other proprietary rights of any person, firm or corporation and the Works contain no libellous or unlawful material or instructions that may cause harm to any person, firm or corporation; (v) Publisher’s trademarks, trade names, logos, designs, and icons do not infringe upon or violate any trademark or other intellectual property right of any other person, firm or corporation; and (vi) there is no outstanding claim or litigation pending against or involving the title, ownership and/or copyright in the Works, or in any part of it, or in the rights which are covered by these Terms. 

Your account is being terminated and all of your titles deleted and removed from sale, as per SECTION 3 of the agreement:

We may (i) terminate or suspend these Terms and your access to Kobo Writing Life at any time, provided that we will notify you promptly after such termination at the email address we have on file and (ii) temporarily remove or suspend any of your Works from sale at any time for any reason or no reason.

Due to your violation of our terms of service, I am afraid to say that you are not welcome to publish titles through Kobo Writing Life and we are not interested in continuing to do business with you.

Sincerely,
The Kobo Team


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

lordoffajitas said:


> I have not been wrong yet. I'm working on getting a copy. Mean while here is my kobo account deletion email I just received. I found it greatly annoying. But it is their decision and I will abide by it.
> 
> ***********
> 
> Hi,
> 
> When you signed up with Kobo Writing Life, you agreed to our Terms and Conditions.
> 
> The content you are uploading puts you in direct violation of these terms, specifically Section 5.1 (copied below):
> 
> 5.1 You represent, warrant and covenant to Kobo that (i) you have the rights, power and privileges to execute, deliver and perform your obligations under these Terms and the execution, delivery and performance of these Terms have been duly authorized by Publisher; (ii) you have all necessary rights to make the grant and assignment of rights Publisher has made to Kobo under these Terms and its submission of the Works hereunder and the use of the Works in the eReading Service does not violate any obligation Publisher owes to any third party or infringe upon the intellectual property rights of any person, including the author of the Works; (iii) you will be solely responsible for obtaining and paying for any and all necessary clearances, rights and licenses for the Works to permit the exercise of the rights granted under these Terms without any further obligation by us, including any payments due to any other copyright holders, co-authors and/co-administrators; (iv) the Works do not and will not infringe upon any common law or statutory right in any other literary, dramatic or other material and no material in the Works violates any intellectual property rights or any other proprietary rights of any person, firm or corporation and the Works contain no libellous or unlawful material or instructions that may cause harm to any person, firm or corporation; (v) Publisher's trademarks, trade names, logos, designs, and icons do not infringe upon or violate any trademark or other intellectual property right of any other person, firm or corporation; and (vi) there is no outstanding claim or litigation pending against or involving the title, ownership and/or copyright in the Works, or in any part of it, or in the rights which are covered by these Terms.
> 
> Your account is being terminated and all of your titles deleted and removed from sale, as per SECTION 3 of the agreement:
> 
> We may (i) terminate or suspend these Terms and your access to Kobo Writing Life at any time, provided that we will notify you promptly after such termination at the email address we have on file and (ii) temporarily remove or suspend any of your Works from sale at any time for any reason or no reason.
> 
> Due to your violation of our terms of service, I am afraid to say that you are not welcome to publish titles through Kobo Writing Life and we are not interested in continuing to do business with you.
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Kobo Team


Uhm, this looks like the account was suspended because of copyright violations, not necessarily because the content was obscene.


----------



## ghostwriter80

I didn't violate their copyright guidelines. It's a content violation. That's literally what I received. Some one else will verify stuff soon enough I imagine.


----------



## 71089

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> Uhm, this looks like the account was suspended because of copyright violations, not necessarily because the content was obscene.


It is probably this part, I think:

_(iv) the Works do not and will not infringe upon any common law or statutory right in any other literary, dramatic or other material_


----------



## cinisajoy

lordoffajitas said:


> I have not been wrong yet. I'm working on getting a copy. Mean while here is my kobo account deletion email I just received. I found it greatly annoying. But it is their decision and I will abide by it.
> 
> ***********
> 
> Hi,
> 
> When you signed up with Kobo Writing Life, you agreed to our Terms and Conditions.
> 
> The content you are uploading puts you in direct violation of these terms, specifically Section 5.1 (copied below):
> 
> 5.1 You represent, warrant and covenant to Kobo that (i) you have the rights, power and privileges to execute, deliver and perform your obligations under these Terms and the execution, delivery and performance of these Terms have been duly authorized by Publisher; (ii) you have all necessary rights to make the grant and assignment of rights Publisher has made to Kobo under these Terms and its submission of the Works hereunder and the use of the Works in the eReading Service does not violate any obligation Publisher owes to any third party or infringe upon the intellectual property rights of any person, including the author of the Works; (iii) you will be solely responsible for obtaining and paying for any and all necessary clearances, rights and licenses for the Works to permit the exercise of the rights granted under these Terms without any further obligation by us, including any payments due to any other copyright holders, co-authors and/co-administrators; _(iv) the Works do not and will not infringe upon any common law or statutory right in any other literary, dramatic or other material and no material in the Works violates any intellectual property rights or any other proprietary rights of any person, firm or corporation and the Works contain no libellous or *unlawful material * or instructions that may cause harm to any person, firm or corporation;_ (v) Publisher's trademarks, trade names, logos, designs, and icons do not infringe upon or violate any trademark or other intellectual property right of any other person, firm or corporation; and (vi) there is no outstanding claim or litigation pending against or involving the title, ownership and/or copyright in the Works, or in any part of it, or in the rights which are covered by these Terms.
> 
> Your account is being terminated and all of your titles deleted and removed from sale, as per SECTION 3 of the agreement:
> 
> We may (i) terminate or suspend these Terms and your access to Kobo Writing Life at any time, provided that we will notify you promptly after such termination at the email address we have on file and (ii) temporarily remove or suspend any of your Works from sale at any time for any reason or no reason.
> 
> Due to your violation of our terms of service, I am afraid to say that you are not welcome to publish titles through Kobo Writing Life and we are not interested in continuing to do business with you.
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Kobo Team


I italicized the section and bolded the important words. It is probably they checked the laws and discovered that oh hey writing about underage sex is illegal. Some states also forbid sex between a school worker and student regardless of that student's age. So now what was the topic of your book?


----------



## ghostwriter80

It was mainly PI. Stepfamily in a variety of settings, BDSM, etc. Everyone was above 18 years old. So I am not sure what constitutes unlawful, since it is all fictional and involves fictional characters.


----------



## KMatthew

After reading everything in this thread, I've decided to delist all of my PI from all retailers until this whole thing blows over.


----------



## Cpersons101

lordoffajitas said:


> It was mainly PI. Stepfamily in a variety of settings, BDSM, etc. Everyone was above 18 years old. So I am not sure what constitutes unlawful, since it is all fictional and involves fictional characters.


Yeah, I get the gist that they are targeting stepfamily relationships. I know someone that has had several of her titles targeted and they all are between stepfather and daughter. She has one that is teacher/student and so far that one has been left alone.


----------



## Lo/Roxie

On some private loops, authors are reporting that their books with heroes/heroines who have childhood abuse in their pasts are being pulled (hello, staple of the romance genre!) and also books like M/M shifter romances (so gay werewolf romances) without any sex scenes at all. Like--what?!

But--you can still snatch up a copy of the Sleeping Beauty series (kidnapping underage girls/boys for severe D/s training) and Anais Nin's Delta of Venus at most of these retailers. Sure, it's a classic text in the erotica genre but it contains underage sex, pedophilia (the first chapter!,) necrophilia, incest, bestiality, etc. Or even a certain erotica series with a southern gothic flare that was put published by HQN/Mira over the last year. That series contains on-the-page underage sex, a priest who becomes emotionally entangled (and later sexually involved with when she's of age) a female parishioner when she is in her teens, knife play and all sorts of major kink.

Also--what about all the NA titles that are all the rage right now (some of them mega NYT bestsellers) that feature forbidden love between stepbrothers and stepsisters? Are those going to be yanked?

FWIW I decided to pull any of my taboo titles last night. They were fun to write and I enjoy pushing the envelope when I write erotica but it is just not worth all this hassle for me.


----------



## Linlithgow

I think banning erotica and indie writers en masse is not going to work - so many people I know (myself included), buy from largely from self-published or small houses. They might buy Sylvia Day or some other big names too but they get a lot of content from smaller houses.

If Amazon has a problem with search results showing up inappropriately THAT is what needs to targeted - there shouldn't be a wholesale slash and burn. If people don't appropriately label something as erotica or adult content the author should get a warning, a little time to change what is necessary before the title is yanked, but the reason should be clear. 

I completely understand a no tolerance policy for pedophilia, snuff, etc., but based on the comments and observations here the taboo labels do not appear to be applied equitably. If the anecdotes are true, perhaps self-pubs and small houses are being targeted because they are perceived as low hanging fruit? It helps clean up the 'mess' a little and Amazon is seen as doing 'the right thing' without upsetting the apple cart too much. I don't know what is behind it all - I hope indies being singled out is not the case, because my experience publishing with Amazon to date has largely been positive.


----------



## Lexissommer

Linlithgow said:


> I think banning erotica and indie writers en masse is not going to work - so many people I know (myself included), buy from largely from self-published or small houses. They might buy Sylvia Day or some other big names too but they get a lot of content from smaller houses.
> 
> If Amazon has a problem with search results showing up inappropriately THAT is what needs to targeted - there shouldn't be a wholesale slash and burn. If people don't appropriately label something as erotica or adult content the author should get a warning, a little time to change what is necessary before the title is yanked, but the reason should be clear.
> 
> I completely understand a no tolerance policy for pedophilia, snuff, etc., but based on the comments and observations here the taboo labels do not appear to be applied equitably. If the anecdotes are true, perhaps self-pubs and small houses are being targeted because they are perceived as low hanging fruit? It helps clean up the 'mess' a little and Amazon is seen as doing 'the right thing' without upsetting the apple cart too much. I don't know what is behind it all - I hope indies being singled out is not the case, because my experience publishing with Amazon to date has largely been positive.


I really don't see them banning all erotica, and especially don't see them banning ALL indie writers. This is more of a PR move than it is a change in their business model. They just want this to all go away, so that a vocal minority gets off of their backs. Give it a couple of weeks, and this will all have calmed down.


----------



## swolf

So when Kobo approved all these books with 'Stepdaughter' and 'Stepdaddy' in their titles,  were they not aware of their own content rules?


----------



## R. K. Clark

Well...I picked the right time to start writing erotica...  

I am certain that Amazon is going to pay lip service to those who need it (as it has been echoed in earlier posts) and everything is going to be back to business-as-usual.

However, I think that I am going to consider other options as far as getting the books out there. With various programs out there, I am not dependent on Amazon for formatting the books for Kindle.  I can easily get them formatted for any e-book and sell them directly from a website.  Sure, I am not going to have Amazon's exposure...but I am not going to have Amazon's headaches, either.

Oh, and Hello, everyone!


----------



## swolf

R. K. Clark said:


> I am certain that Amazon is going to pay lip service to those who need it (as it has been echoed in earlier posts) and everything is going to be back to business-as-usual.


I don't think it's going to return to what it was, as far as the explicit titles and blurbs go. We're going to have to tone it down with that.

I know that if they start allowing the stuff they're blocking right now, the current authors are going to raise hell with them. Why did I spend days removing 'stepdaughter' and 'babysitter' from my titles just to see them allowing new books with those words?


----------



## Mysterio

lordoffajitas said:


> It was mainly PI. Stepfamily in a variety of settings, BDSM, etc. Everyone was above 18 years old. So I am not sure what constitutes unlawful, since it is all fictional and involves fictional characters.


I just have to ask, are you the owner of See You Next Tuesday Press or Something City Press, or someone involved with them? I don't agree with censorship/account terminations in any case, but it would make sense because those pen names were at the center of this media storm. I can see retailers like Kobo banning the account of the person with a bunch of explicit rape titles, even though I disagree with it.

About pedophilia, I think the British gossip press has been extraordinarily sloppy. They outright lied when they said certain taboo works covered had underage characters. It simply wasn't true. I haven't found one instance of this in any of the books cited in these articles. Even the books published by See You Next Tuesday contained disclaimers about all characters being over 18.

These journalists should be held to a higher standard for completing making things up and failing to do the least bit of fact checking. It's gross.


----------



## Guest

Hmmm.
Would a biography of Woody Allen be banned because he messed around with his step-daughter?


----------



## Dormouse

Okey Dokey said:


> Hmmm.
> Would a biography of Woody Allen be banned because he messed around with his step-daughter?


Biography isn't erotica unless you plan to write FPS. 

They haven't banned Game of Thrones nor Flowers in the Attic or any biography about ancient pharaohs, who often married their sisters and in some instances even their own mothers, nor any involving European aristocracy where marriages between cousins was also relatively common, especially among the Habsburg-family.


----------



## Lexissommer

Okey Dokey said:


> Hmmm.
> Would a biography of Woody Allen be banned because he messed around with his step-daughter?


Depends on if it turns you on or not.


----------



## swolf

Another example of the inconsistency from Amazon we're facing:

Got the email last Friday that included these:



> Having Fun with My Sister-in-Law (ASIN: B0085RPTAQ) - Title, Description
> Mean Father-in-Law (ASIN: B00BRVHUKY) - Description, Description
> Sexy Mother-in-Law (ASIN: B00BRVHW0W) - Description, Description
> Teenage Sister-in-Law (ASIN: B00BRVNGDY) - Title, Description


So I changed the titles to:

Having Fun with My In-Law
Mean In-Law
Sexy In-Law
Teenage In-Law

Also changed the blurbs. They all republished without a problem.

Then I got this this morning:



> We have re-reviewed your books found that the following book(s) is in violation of our content guidelines (see list below for details):
> 
> Teenage Sister-in-Law (ASIN: B00BRVNGDY) - Description, Title, Cover Image
> Sexy Mother-in-Law (ASIN: B00BRVHW0W) - Description, Title, Cover Image
> Mean Father-in-Law (ASIN: B00BRVHUKY) - Description
> Having Fun with My Sister-in-Law (ASIN: B0085RPTAQ) - Description, Title, Cover Image


If anyone can figure that out, let me know.


----------



## DL Pearl

I can understand making a general sweep to cover you back from a legal perspective. I just don't understand why it doesn't seem consistent. The dino porn is still top selling on Amazon, I guess bestiality doesn't apply to animals that are extinct?


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

swolf said:


> So when Kobo approved all these books with 'Stepdaughter' and 'Stepdaddy' in their titles, were they not aware of their own content rules?


I think it's the old Casablanca denial in full effect:

Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
Captain Renault: [aloud] Everybody out at once!


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

swolf said:


> They all republished without a problem.
> 
> Then I got this this morning:
> *Quote
> We have re-reviewed your books found that the following book(s) is in violation of our content guidelines (see list below for details):
> *
> If anyone can figure that out, let me know.


I had the same exact thing happen: my two best PI books got nailed by Carlos on Saturday, I spent the afternoon censoring title, cover, blurb, and republished with new titles, etc. Both went back to being Live by Sunday night. Then late this afternoon I got an email saying they were back in Draft status and refered to them by their former titles even though they are listed on my KDP bookshelf by their new, wimpier title.

As to the Why, the best I can guess is they have multiple databases where our titles are all listed. There's one dBase that holds the information in the KDP bookshelves. There's another associated with our author pages and a larger one that the store runs off of. There is probably some kind of process that is supposed to keep them all in sync, and it is less than foolproof.

I have replied to the email stating that my KDP bookshelf lists the cleaned up titles and descriptions, and I attached the two emails from Suday showing they approved them. I am hoping that will be enough.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

P.S. If you haven't signed the petition to Amazon et. al. to end this witch hunt, take a moment:

[URL=http://www.change]http://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-barnes-and-noble-kobo-drop-the-clause-of-removing-erotica-and-self-published-indie-authors[/url]

Also post it on your Facebook timeline, blog, Twitter, etc. and encourage all your fans and friends to sign.


----------



## Lana Amore

DL Pearl said:


> I can understand making a general sweep to cover you back from a legal perspective. I just don't understand why it doesn't seem consistent. The dino porn is still top selling on Amazon, I guess bestiality doesn't apply to animals that are extinct?


Okay, thank you for my laugh of the day.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

CrystalVeeyant said:


> I had the same exact thing happen: my two best PI books got nailed by Carlos on Saturday, I spent the afternoon censoring title, cover, blurb, and republished with new titles, etc. Both went back to being Live by Sunday night. Then late this afternoon I got an email saying they were back in Draft status and refered to them by their former titles even though they are listed on my KDP bookshelf by their new, wimpier title.
> 
> As to the Why, the best I can guess is they have multiple databases where our titles are all listed. There's one dBase that holds the information in the KDP bookshelves. There's another associated with our author pages and a larger one that the store runs off of. There is probably some kind of process that is supposed to keep them all in sync, and it is less than foolproof.
> 
> I have replied to the email stating that my KDP bookshelf lists the cleaned up titles and descriptions, and I attached the two emails from Suday showing they approved them. I am hoping that will be enough.


As I mentioned when this debacle started, I suspect that certain topics will now become too taboo for Amazon and some other retailers. This is one of the reasons why I've decided against changing anything on my four erotic shorts that were banned by Amazon, Kobo and Barnes & Noble. I suspect the content/topic is the problem for them, not the titles and descriptions. I never thought I would say this, but I may just republish my erotica through a traditional publisher, so that I can distance myself from these hypocritical retailers. I'm pretty confident they won't block my erotica if it's published through a large house.


----------



## authordread

I write in the urban fiction genre. I've been publishing on Amazon for about a year. All books have gone live within 12 hours. Some as quick as 2 hours. However, I recently tried to upload one on Monday and here it is 2 days later and it is still in review. I sent an email and this is the response that I got:

Hello,

We’re writing to let you know we will be conducting an additional review to ensure your submitted content does not violate our guidelines. It may take up to 7 business days to review the following submission(s):

Loyalty & Respect 9 by Delgado, Drea 

During this period, you are welcome to submit additional books, but publishing may be delayed until this review is complete. It is not overly sex filled, maybe three scenes tops.

What is going on with Amazon these days?


----------



## LysaM

authordread said:


> I write in the urban fiction genre. I've been publishing on Amazon for about a year. All books have gone live within 12 hours. Some as quick as 2 hours. However, I recently tried to upload one on Monday and here it is 2 days later and it is still in review. I sent an email and this is the response that I got:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We're writing to let you know we will be conducting an additional review to ensure your submitted content does not violate our guidelines. It may take up to 7 business days to review the following submission(s):
> 
> Loyalty & Respect 9 by Delgado, Drea
> 
> During this period, you are welcome to submit additional books, but publishing may be delayed until this review is complete. It is not overly sex filled, maybe three scenes tops.
> 
> What is going on with Amazon these days?


Strange. It must not be a blanket policy, at least not yet, because I submitted a book early Tuesday morning, and it went through within about eight hours. I resubmitted one Tuesday evening that had been taken down during Amazon's recent sweep and it went through within around the same time frame.


----------



## KMatthew

LysaM said:


> Strange. It must not be a blanket policy, at least not yet, because I submitted a book early Tuesday morning, and it went through within about eight hours. I resubmitted one Tuesday evening that had been taken down during Amazon's recent sweep and it went through within around the same time frame.


Same. For the most part, I haven't been having issues with submitting new books and re-submitting old ones since this all began. I do have one re-submitted book that's been in review for a few days, but I'm not expecting that one to pass anyway.


----------



## NicWilson

authordread said:


> I write in the urban fiction genre. I've been publishing on Amazon for about a year. All books have gone live within 12 hours. Some as quick as 2 hours. However, I recently tried to upload one on Monday and here it is 2 days later and it is still in review. I sent an email and this is the response that I got:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We're writing to let you know we will be conducting an additional review to ensure your submitted content does not violate our guidelines. It may take up to 7 business days to review the following submission(s):
> 
> Loyalty & Respect 9 by Delgado, Drea
> 
> During this period, you are welcome to submit additional books, but publishing may be delayed until this review is complete. It is not overly sex filled, maybe three scenes tops.
> 
> What is going on with Amazon these days?


Anyone else gotten this message? I had planned to get my next release out at the end of October, and now I'm getting anxious. It does have a little a minor amount of steam in it, not for titillation, but as a psychological tool that a character uses to manipulate other people over the course of the novel's plot. I hope I'm just being paranoid and that its release won't be affected by the pornocalypse fallout.


----------



## LysaM

NicWilson said:


> Anyone else gotten this message? I had planned to get my next release out at the end of October, and now I'm getting anxious. It does have a little a minor amount of steam in it, not for titillation, but as a psychological tool that a character uses to manipulate other people over the course of the novel's plot. I hope I'm just being paranoid and that its release won't be affected by the pornocalypse fallout.


Don't worry, you'll be fine. They're not banning sex or erotica or anything of that nature -- they're coming down hard on a few taboo subjects that they feel too prominently display their taboo nature in the title, cover and blurb.


----------



## mrv01d

FYI It's confirmed BN is deleting accounts. No resubmission, just boom gone. 

If you need to clean anything up go do it now before they decide to shut you down.


----------



## Kiki Wellington

mrv01d said:


> FYI It's confirmed BN is deleting accounts. No resubmission, just boom gone.
> 
> If you need to clean anything up go do it now before they decide to shut you down.


Do you know what they're going after? Just PI or other things too?


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

If the want to be consistent they should block the King James Bible. Genesis 19:30-36 talks about Lot getting drunk and have sex with his daughters. Not pseudo but the real deal. They should also block Fifty Shades (dubious consent) and every V.C. Andrews book that gets into what we're having blocked. The hypocrisy stinks worse than a decaying corpse.


----------



## cinisajoy

CrystalVeeyant said:


> If the want to be consistent they should block the King James Bible. Genesis 19:30-36 talks about Lot getting drunk and have sex with his daughters. Not pseudo but the real deal. They should also block Fifty Shades (dubious consent) and every V.C. Andrews book that gets into what we're having blocked. The hypocrisy stinks worse than a decaying corpse.


Just went and looked up those bible verses. It is worse than that. The daughters get Lot drunk and made him have sex with them so they could get pregnant. (that would be r*pe and inc*st). Though the bible is not focused on let's eff our daddy. It is a small part of the book. VC is not totally focused on weird brother/sister relationships unlike the my brothers effed me books. 50 Shades should just be banned for horrible writing.

Oh and it is not just the King James version but any version of the _Holy Bible _.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

One of my recent banned books has a passage where the characters are doing PI roleplay. It's not the subject of the book and it accounts for less than 5% of the narrative. Still their resident voyeur Carlos, reviewing books with his fainting couch conveniently nearby, saw "Daddy" and zapped it on that basis. There is no rhyme or reason nor proliferation of PI, just the "wrong" word in the wrong context and so I'm having to censor the entire book just in case the word "daddy" attracts negative attention. That's just plain wrong.

Please post this on your timelines and Twitter feeds:

http://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-barnes-and-noble-kobo-leave-our-self-published-and-or-indie-authors-alone


----------



## mrv01d

Kiki Wellington said:


> Do you know what they're going after? Just PI or other things too?


I don't know. All I can tell you is I've seen the screen caps of the BN email shutting down an author's account.

I don't write anything all that extreme, but that has never stopped a bookseller from targeting an author. So I am cleaning, cleaning, cleaning trying to be sure there's NOTHING they can decide I'm doing wrong.

If you write PI or anything that could be construed as rape, get if off BN ASAP as I do think those books are in the crosshairs.

I hope if someone just has one book that is an issue that BN wouldn't ban the author wholesale, but I've only seen complete account deletion responses from them to date.

ETA: It sounds like maybe MAYBE the account deletions are limited in scope. Just be careful. Go clean up your account for now so you can pass the sniff test.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

Apparently even "stepmom" and "stepdad" is in Amazon's crosshairs. I sold hundreds of books of those titles before this witch hunt. I guess Amazon and B&N doesn't mind losing all of that revenue to Smashwords. I wonder what Amazon shareholders think of all that revenue going away? Just from my own sales I know that Taboo is a huge market. What a poor business model...

P.S. Any word on Selena Kitt's attempt at setting up an erotica imprint for grownups?


----------



## Zenferno

CrystalVeeyant said:


> One of my recent banned books has a passage where the characters are doing PI roleplay. It's not the subject of the book and it accounts for less than 5% of the narrative. Still their resident voyeur Carlos, reviewing books with his fainting couch conveniently nearby, saw "Daddy" and zapped it on that basis. There is no rhyme or reason nor proliferation of PI, just the "wrong" word in the wrong context and so I'm having to censor the entire book just in case the word "daddy" attracts negative attention. That's just plain wrong.


Wow, this is huge if they are doing this across the board. I thought it was just the cover, title and blurb they were going after (?) Are you certain it was this content that caused the block and not something else? Lots of KB'ers have been re-uploading their titles after sanitizing everything except the story and getting re-approved.


----------



## swolf

mrv01d said:


> If you write PI or anything that could be construed as rape, get if off BN ASAP as I do think those books are in the crosshairs.


The odd thing about this is that up to now, B&N allowed pure incest to be published. And now they're banning people for publishing PI? What a bunch of hypocrites. Make money off of us, and then ban us like it's our fault when the light gets shone on them.


----------



## CoraBuhlert

Regarding rape for titillation, romantic rape, dubious or straight out non-consent and often pretty nasty violence were standard tropes in the romance genre in the 1970s and 1980s, particularly in the so-called "bodiceripper" romances.

Take for example Christine Monson's debut novel _Stormfire_ from 1984. Here is a synopsis and here a discussion of the book at Goodreads. In _Stormfire_, the "hero" abducts and violently rapes the heroine, who is 17 at the time BTW, and also physically abuses her to the point that she suffers a miscarriage. And this was supposed to be romantic. And guess what? Used copies are available at Amazon. 

And yet they freak out about dubious consent and step-daddy erotica.


----------



## brie.mcgill

Just for fun, can someone please define romantic rape?


----------



## cinisajoy

brie.mcgill said:


> Just for fun, can someone please define romantic rape?


I don't think there is a definition.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

DL Pearl said:


> I can understand making a general sweep to cover you back from a legal perspective. I just don't understand why it doesn't seem consistent. The dino porn is still top selling on Amazon, I guess bestiality doesn't apply to animals that are extinct?


Its probably not consistent because to the size of the set of books they are dealing with, and the difficulty in teaching computers how to identify the stuff they are after. Suppose they are on a three month project, and suppose they do a perfect job by their standards. At any point up to the last day, there will be inconsistencies because they haven't finished the job.

A poor analogy is going through an alphabetic list of names, looking at names, and deleting all the men. When they have progressed through P, there will still be lots of men on the list. There will also be men on the list whose names begin with G , because they didnt know if Gerry was a male or female.

It would be easy if the data allowed a simple filter to be run. But unless someone has set all those flags, the filters have nothing to look at.

I thought Dino Porn was a joke. Now Im not sure. Is there really Dino Porn? (Did I actually just ask that?) I thought they only laid eggs.


----------



## Lana Amore

brie.mcgill said:


> Just for fun, can someone please define romantic rape?


Ravishment fantasy? In RL, I got nothing.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

brie.mcgill said:


> Just for fun, can someone please define romantic rape?


In Yaoi (sort of Japanese m/m-romance) there is a trope "rape him till he loves you."

Very popular, though I never could quite understand it.


----------



## WordSaladTongs

Andrew Ashling said:


> In Yaoi (sort of Japanese m/m-romance) there is a trope "rape him till he loves you."
> 
> Very popular, though I never could quite understand it.


I think General Hospital once had a storyline like this.


----------



## SandraMiller

WordSaladTongs said:


> I think General Hospital once had a storyline like this.


Oh, gosh, I'm not the only one who remembers that? If it's the one I'm thinking, I was a teenager, and it made me SO MAD to see a character marry the man who once did that to her--and not only that, but they were one of the show's super couples.

Barf.


----------



## WordSaladTongs

SandraMiller said:


> Oh, gosh, I'm not the only one who remembers that? If it's the one I'm thinking, I was a teenager, and it made me SO MAD to see a character marry the man who once did that to her--and not only that, but they were one of the show's super couples.
> 
> Barf.


Sadly, no, I remember it, it was Luke and Laura. And other soaps have done sort of similar things. Wasn't it romantic on AMC when Adam loved Erica so much that he kidnapped her? It's totally bonkers how popular that stuff was (is?).

Sorry for the derail. BAN SOAP OPERAS! BAN SOAP! STINK MORE!


----------



## CoraBuhlert

Basically, it's a guy rapes a woman (or man in the yaoi scenario Andrew described), but since he's really handsome and gives really great orgasms, even though he raped her (or him), the victim eventually falls in love with his or her rapist. It's all rather creepy and offputting, but such raped into love scenarios were extremely common in certain historical romances up to approx. 1990 (and according to some authors many publisher required rape scenarios in those days).

The reasoning I've heard for the popularity of such scenarios is that they abdicate the woman from responsibility for daring to enjoy sex. Basically, the woman gets to have sex and even enjoy it, but she's not a slut - after all, he forced her and she didn't really want to. It's a symptom of the sexual double standard, which is probably why it gradually evaporated in the early 1990s. However, many romance bestsellers from the 1970s and 1980s have "Raped into love" scenarios and they are still available at Amazon, even though a new erotica or maybe even steamy romance novel with the same scenario would get blocked.

Here is a selection of hugely popular books with "rape into love" tropes:

_The Flame and the Flower_ by Kathleen E. Woodiwiss

_Sweet Savage Love_ by Rosemary Rogers

_Warrior's Song_ by Catherine Coulter

_The Rebel Bride_ by Catherine Coulter

_Whitney, My Love_ by Judith McNaught

_Hearts Aflame_ by Joanna Lindsey

_Captive Bride_ by Joanna Lindsey


----------



## RaeC

IRL, wouldn't that be the scenario for many marriages in the days when it wasn't considered rape to force your wife?


----------



## daringnovelist

AdrianC said:


> IRL, wouldn't that be the scenario for many marriages in the days when it wasn't considered rape to force your wife?


Yeah, my first thought on hearing "What is romantic rape?" was _Gone With The Wind_.


----------



## Deena Ward

Well, seriously aging myself here, but ... I also remember Luke and Laura and Kathleen Woodiwiss. A friend in college loaned me some Woodiwiss and some books by an author whose name I can't recall. The books all had titles starting with "Daughters of ..." and centered around the life and loves of a trio of sisters who whenever they got in financial trouble (and they were always having financial troubles), opened a whorehouse for a while until they were flush again.

One aspect of some "mistaken rape" historical novels back then was the old, "Oh, so sorry about raping you. I thought you were a whore," excuse. Hero believed his pure virgin was an experienced street doxy and had simply done his manly business, thinking her cries of "Stop, you blackguard!" were intended solely for erotic effect. Oops! Oh, well, nothing to be done about it ... except marry the raped girl to make an honest woman of her. Geesh.

Wonder if that sort of thing still plays today? Wonder if the censors would ban a contemporary version of it?


----------



## WordSaladTongs

daringnovelist said:


> Yeah, my first thought on hearing "What is romantic rape?" was _Gone With The Wind_.


How could I forget this? It's so romantic, I almost don't want to admit you're right. It's as if the viewers' approval of Rhett and the romance made it somehow consensual. Now I feel dirty, and yet I've banned soap.


----------



## daringnovelist

Deena Ward said:


> One aspect of some "mistaken rape" historical novels back then was the old, "Oh, so sorry about raping you. I thought you were a whore," excuse. Hero believed his pure virgin was an experienced street doxy and had simply done his manly business, thinking her cries of "Stop, you blackguard!" were intended solely for erotic effect. Oops! Oh, well, nothing to be done about it ... except marry the raped girl to make an honest woman of her. Geesh.


Then there's the older version: Son of the Sheik.

Young lovers. He's a prince, she's a street dancer. Her family's gang uses their relationship to trap, kidnap and abuse him. They lie and tell him that she intentionally lured him into it. So as soon as he's free, he kidnaps and rapes her in revenge. She tries to hate him and yet can't. He eventually learns the truth, so then he goes and saves her from... I can't remember. Maybe just an awful life with her awful family, maybe from someone else doing to her what he did.

Camille


----------



## DigitalMedia

Offense is the best defense. Thats whats going on - nothing else.

I doubt that especially Amazon gives anything if their content is legal or not. I allready complained last year regarding illegal titles
in the kindle store multiple times via email - they never responded to this topic. I still have this emails saved to have proof what I`m saying
and enough experience with Amazon and other communication to underline that.

They`ve baned titles wich been absolutely soft, r-rated and let hardcore and illegal stuff in their both. I heavily doubt that they had NO
knowledge that they sold extreme titles. So it`s BS that the retailers are "surprised" - their actions now are just the try to keep a good
face to the world and to put the guiltyness in authors shoes.

This guys who never had to do something with hardcore, extreme material etc. and tried to follow or better overfollow the guidelines and the law`s are
harmed mostly now cuz their content/income get spoiled away in the great "clean up".

The retailers itself are responsible for the stuff they`ve listed - not authors or any BS artists who submit unaccepptable content. Or did anyone of you could upload
a ebook directly to store it immediately online on the big platforms? NO. All titles get "reviewed", right? reviewed through the teams from the retailers.

And to pass the review been just a question of luck (at Amazon) - depending who`s been reviewing even hard titles went through and other times even the softest
get blocked.

And the extremely vague written content guidelines - especially from Amazon - makes a big sense (for Amazon). If you never talk clear nobody can blame you
disturbing your own written rules, right? Or did anyone ever get a detailed explanation whats been wrong with a blocked title? I bet NO.

So, who bring the mess and who is responsible? So cristallwater clear....

*VIOLANCE BEEN POSSIBLE CUZ IT BEEN ACCEPTED, PERIOD.*

My theory - after some grass growns over the case the marketplaces will be again full of unacctable stuff. They really hit the wrong ones now and they will do
again - anytime when it`s bring fortune and covers the own dirty face.

Please excuse my bad english but I´m sure you got my point of view.


----------



## swolf

DigitalMedia said:


> I allready complained last year regarding illegal titles in the kindle store multiple times via email - they never responded to this topic.


So you've complained to Amazon about 'illegal' books? Who determined that they were illegal?


----------



## DigitalMedia

swolf said:


> So you've complained to Amazon about 'illegal' books? Who determined that they were illegal?


simple: the law


----------



## swolf

DigitalMedia said:


> simple: the law


Which law? And please be specific.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

swolf said:


> Which law? And please be specific.


Hehe.  He can't name any law, because the is NO LAW saying any of these books are illegal, at least not in the US. I wish that people would actually read the law before they post long rants about fictional books being illegal. I also wish that people who say they believe in freedom of expression would stand up for that principal even when it means defending someone's right to read, write, and publish content that many may find objectionable. We can't just say "we believe in freedom of speech only when it's speech we agree with." I'm just so totally disgusted with this entire situation.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> I also wish that people who say they believe in freedom of expression would stand up for that principal even when it means defending someone's right to read, write, and publish content that many may find objectionable. We can't just say "we believe in freedom of speech only when it's speech we agree with." I'm just so totally disgusted with this entire situation.


Agree. But we also have to recognize freedom of expression extends to everyone. It guarantees the right to express, and it also guarantees the right to keep quiet. That includes the right to refrain from enabling or assisting expression.

What we have in these situations are rights in conflict. Writer has a right to express. Retailer has a right to refrain from enabling the writers expression. In the US, government can't favor one over the other, so it gets hashed out between the parties, and one guy's right does not trump the other guy's right.

Nobody has any obligation to enable the writer, and nobody has any obligation to write for the enabler.

What we cannot do is stop the guy from expressing, or force the other guy to enable the expression.

When we believe in freedom of expression for everyone and everything, conflict is inevitable.

Ain't this a great country?


----------



## DigitalMedia

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> Hehe.  He can't name any law, because the is NO LAW saying any of these books are illegal, at least not in the US.


well, the globe is not only the US.... maybe you take a look at some globus to dedect that there are plenty of other countries - countries where Amazon & Co. is selling.
Beside of that that I heavily doubt that some titles wich been available for a long time on kindle are legal in the states as well.

...and naming facts and ranting are 2 different things. Stuff like incest, CP etc. is prohibited by law in many countries - not only here
in europe. Specific enough? And it doesn`t matter - at least in my country - if you hide such themes under "fiction". And this have nothing to do with free expression - it`s just sick.


----------



## Nihilist

DigitalMedia said:


> well, the globe is not only the US.... maybe you take a look at some globus to dedect that there are plenty of other countries - countries where Amazon & Co. is selling.
> Beside of that that I heavily doubt that some titles wich been available for a long time on kindle are legal in the states as well.
> 
> ...and naming facts and ranting are 2 different things. Stuff like incest, CP etc. is prohibited by law in many countries - not only here
> in europe. Specific enough? And it doesn`t matter - at least in my country - if you hide such themes under "fiction". And this have nothing to do with free expression - it`s just sick.


Murder is also illegal. So we can't write and sell books about it?


----------



## cinisajoy

I so want to say something but anything I might type would just come out all wrong. I mean just because I don't like [removed] does not mean it is illegal. Distasteful, probably. Illegal no.

Might I add that zon is an American company and therefore answers to american laws.


----------



## Dormouse

cinisajoy said:


> Might I add that zon is an American company and therefore answers to american laws.


No quite true. The German store of Amazon (amazon.de) is bound by Luxembourg law since this is where their European office is located and in their German store they still adhere to German law which is why some books aren't available in Germany because here they are illegal. Amazon.com of course is not really impacted by that except for shipping restrictions when it comes to specific products.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

Terrence OBrien said:


> What we have in these situations are rights in conflict. Writer has a right to express. Retailer has a right to refrain from enabling the writers expression. In the US, government can't favor one over the other, so it gets hashed out between the parties, and one guy's right does not trump the other guy's right.


I'm certain that there is some compromise that can be made. Maybe an adult filter, some region blocks? When Kobo invited writers to sell on their platform we did so with the idea that they would adhere to their own rules and treat us with respect. But simply removing everyone's books violated our trust. And I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if they have also violated contract laws, not just with Indies but with independent booksellers who were told they would have access to self-published titles.



AlixNowarra said:


> No quite true. The German store of Amazon (amazon.de) is bound by Luxembourg law since this is where their European office is located and in their German store they still adhere to German law which is why some books aren't available in Germany because here they are illegal. Amazon.com of course is not really impacted by that except for shipping restrictions when it comes to specific products.


I don't mind keeping certain books out of countries with laws that prohibit them, but at this point books that are perfectly legal in the US are being kept out of the US online stores because of foreign laws. I don't think Americans would be too fond of that if they knew about it.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks,

locked for the time being as there have been multiple reports.  Reading through.  Thanks for your patience.

EDIT:  I've removed some posts that crossed the line or seemed more ill tempered than necessary.

Betsy
KB Moderator
KB


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> I'm certain that there is some compromise that can be made. Maybe an adult filter, some region blocks? When Kobo invited writers to sell on their platform we did so with the idea that they would adhere to their own rules and treat us with respect. But simply removing everyone's books violated our trust. And I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if they have also violated contract laws, not just with Indies but with independent booksellers who were told they would have access to self-published titles.


Sure they can compromise. They can do just about whatever they want. But its futile to invoke freedom of expression by either side since both sides have rights that conflict. They need another way to get what they want.



> I don't mind keeping certain books out of countries with laws that prohibit them, but at this point books that are perfectly legal in the US are being kept out of the US online stores because of foreign laws. I don't think Americans would be too fond of that if they knew about it.


Its important to note the foreign law is not being enforced by the US government against US companies. This is being done by the company. They can sell whatever they want in the US without any consideration of foreign law. US companies do have to comply with the laws of the places they operate. So they are faced with a problem of how to structure their marketing and computer systems to efficiently comply with all the laws. Its not easy. I think the stuff we are seeing is consistent with the companies not really knowing whats on their servers.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

Betsy I understand the job you need to do as the moderator, and thank you for doing it, but it's easy to see why tempers are flaring and lines are being crossed. These booksellers have been making money for *years* selling the exact kind of taboo titles they are now banning to save public face because a couple of media outlets have gotten shrill in their moralizing. Furthermore it is pure hypocrisy to go after our "questionable" titles with a sledgehammer and yet continue to sell big titles like "Fifty Shades" that cross the same lines our boks are being slammed for. Some of us rely on the money we're making with our writing, and even those of us who don't need the money hate to see works we've poured countless hours into suddenly put in handcuffs for a media dog & pony show.

P.S. Anyone who doesn't sign the change.org petition to Amazon is tacitly enabling censorship. We should be shouting "censorship" from the rooftops.


----------



## 71089

CrystalVeeyant said:


> Furthermore it is pure hypocrisy to go after our "questionable" titles with a sledgehammer and yet continue to sell big titles like "Fifty Shades" that cross the same lines our boks are being slammed for.


Uhm, as far as I know, FSOG does not feature bestiality, incest or rape. This book has two consenting adults engaging in a Sub & Dom relationship. I don't see how you can ever compare the two and why FSOG would be the same

The retailers that are doing this big showdown are only doing it because of titles that included the above mentioned topics when they found out they were listed. 
Erotica such as FSOG, and other types, are not the ones at fault, even though they are now the target as well. Still, that does not mean FSOG should just be 'banned' as well just for the sake of banning everything erotic. No, that's not how it works.

I totally understand why they would ban bestiality, incest or rape, but a consenting bdsm relationship? Sorry, but no. You cannot seriously mean to say that FSOG 'crosses the same lines' as a book that's about incest, bestiality or rape. That is just wrong on so many levels, I can't even ...

oh lord, I give up.


----------



## Guest

CrystalVeeyant said:


> P.S. Anyone who doesn't sign the change.org petition to Amazon is tacitly enabling censorship. We should be shouting "censorship" from the rooftops.


Well, this page is 19 pages. So I don't know which version of the petition you are talking about, but all of the petitions I have seen are useless, poorly worded, and not something I would sign because they are rambling accusations and not constructive thoughts. Please direct me to a competently constructed one that offers rational statements and doesn't degenerate into vague accusation, I might consider signing. But I see most internet petitions as easy ways for people to pretend they are doing something constructive without actually having to DO anything.

How many people signing the petition will stop shopping at Amazon? The ONLY petition that matters is the one you sign in your checkbook.


----------



## cinisajoy

ClarissaWild said:


> Uhm, as far as I know, FSOG does not feature bestiality, incest or rape. This book has two consenting adults engaging in a Sub & Dom relationship. I don't see how you can ever compare the two and why FSOG would be the same
> 
> The retailers that are doing this big showdown are only doing it because of titles that included the above mentioned topics when they found out they were listed.
> Erotica such as FSOG, and other types, are not the ones at fault, even though they are now the target as well. Still, that does not mean FSOG should just be 'banned' as well just for the sake of banning everything erotic. No, that's not how it works.
> 
> I totally understand why they would ban bestiality, incest or rape, but a consenting bdsm relationship? Sorry, but no. You cannot seriously mean to say that FSOG 'crosses the same lines' as a book that's about incest, bestiality or rape. That is just wrong on so many levels, I can't even ...
> 
> oh lord, I give up.


THIS 100% this.

And slightly off-topic or totally on topic: my psych paper is still online. It is "The differences between Abuse and BDSM".


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

Terrence OBrien said:


> Its important to note the foreign law is not being enforced by the US government against US companies. This is being done by the company. They can sell whatever they want in the US without any consideration of foreign law. US companies do have to comply with the laws of the places they operate. So they are faced with a problem of how to structure their marketing and computer systems to efficiently comply with all the laws. Its not easy. I think the stuff we are seeing is consistent with the companies not really knowing whats on their servers.


When a company decides to remove titles from their US stores because of foreign mores and laws that has a direct impact on readers, writers and publishers. Yes, I do agree that it is a problem with their computer systems and how they distribute content, but it is also a problem with how they are handling these issues. If Kobo decided that they would remove all bibles from their stores because there was some controversy surrounding the text in a foreign country I would also be against that. And that would also unfairly impact readers who depend on Kobo to deliver content they want. However, I wouldn't mind the Bible being blocked in certain countries that prohibit the text. And I think that's a fair compromise.



DigitalMedia said:


> well, the globe is not only the US.... maybe you take a look at some globus to dedect that there are plenty of other countries - countries where Amazon & Co. is selling.
> Beside of that that I heavily doubt that some titles wich been available for a long time on kindle are legal in the states as well.
> 
> ...and naming facts and ranting are 2 different things. Stuff like incest, CP etc. is prohibited by law in many countries - not only here
> in europe. Specific enough? And it doesn`t matter - at least in my country - *if you hide such themes under "fiction". And this have nothing to do with free expression - it`s just sick.*


I just want to again reiterate that writing fiction on any theme, even themes considered taboo, is not illegal in the US. I feel compelled to say this because I hear the term illegal thrown about too easily. This fact is very important and it DOES matter here in this country because freedom of expression is priority number one here. On your last point, please clarify something. Please see the bold portion above where you mention "hiding themes." Now I may be reading this wrong, but are you saying that in fact, people writing fiction on taboo themes are in fact hiding nonfictional accounts in their fiction? I don't want to jump any guns here, but I just want to clarify it with you first.


----------



## mrv01d

ClarissaWild said:


> Uhm, as far as I know, FSOG does not feature bestiality, incest or rape. This book has two consenting adults engaging in a Sub & Dom relationship. I don't see how you can ever compare the two and why FSOG would be the same
> 
> The retailers that are doing this big showdown are only doing it because of titles that included the above mentioned topics when they found out they were listed.
> Erotica such as FSOG, and other types, are not the ones at fault, even though they are now the target as well. Still, that does not mean FSOG should just be 'banned' as well just for the sake of banning everything erotic. No, that's not how it works.
> 
> I totally understand why they would ban bestiality, incest or rape, but a consenting bdsm relationship? Sorry, but no. You cannot seriously mean to say that FSOG 'crosses the same lines' as a book that's about incest, bestiality or rape. That is just wrong on so many levels, I can't even ...
> 
> oh lord, I give up.


Clarissa, you're missing the narrative. The book accused by the Kernel of being bestiality had a dog on the cover not because anyone molested it, but because the dog was a character in the story. THEY DIDN'T READ THE BOOK. I don't believe they found any actual bestiality books at all.

The one common denominator in all these attacks on fiction is the use of buzzwords that people find universally repugnant. The media use this as a smoke shield and a tool to ensure people react just like you have.

As a result, folks adamantly agree that these books should be banned.

And fail to realize other books with perfectly acceptable content similar to FSOG are banned in the process.

In previous rounds of 'incest, rape, bestiality oh my' you had Paypal saying that bdsm was equivalent to rape and could not be sold. This would include FSOG. Shapeshifter books have been targeted this time and in the past.

As for incest, authors have gone to great lengths to write 'Woody Allen incest' which isn't illegal in real life, so why would it be illegal in fiction?

By not digging into the narrative that has been fed to you and the rest of the public, you're missing the facts of the situation.

Which is exactly what the media wants.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

ClarissaWild said:


> The retailers that are doing this big showdown are only doing it because of titles that included the above mentioned topics when they found out they were listed.
> Erotica such as FSOG, and other types, are not the ones at fault, even though they are now the target as well.


Some of my titles that have been banned had none of those topics either; they were merely suggestive and and overzealous reviewer flagged either the title, cover, blurb or content. Now I'm having trouble getting them listed again without changing the content to remove anything that even gives the appearance of "wrong." That is CENSORSHIP and it is wrong.

BTW, "Dubious consent" titles have been pulled during this witch hunt. Fifty Shades has dubious consent but is allowed to stay up because it's a huge moneymaker. That was the point I am making. Don't be so patronizingly dismissive.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

Well, Carlos F has struck again. A novella for which I reworked title, cover and blurb has now been censored and BLOCKED by Carlos, who should probably be working in a monastery and not reviewing erotica.

My suggestion to anyone with PI titles flagged for cover, title or blurb: DON'T resubmit right away, because someone like Carlos will probably take a magnifying glass to the actual pages and apply their own sense of "morality" to it. Wait until this blows over and the media pats Amazon on the head like a good doggie for fetching the religious right's bone for them, then resubmit.


----------



## KMatthew

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But I see most internet petitions as easy ways for people to pretend they are doing something constructive without actually having to DO anything.
> 
> How many people signing the petition will stop shopping at Amazon? The ONLY petition that matters is the one you sign in your checkbook.


I honestly can't count the number of these petitions I have seen going around online that have changed absolutely nothing, which is why I never bother to sign them.


----------



## Joshua Dalzelle

I browsed quickly through this thread and I've noticed is that people are glossing over one thing: these companies have no obligation to continue to provide a platform regardless of the first amendment. This is a natural reaction and when it hits the wallet I can completely understand the anger, but no amount of petitioning or threats will have much of an effect.

If Amazon decided scifi was absurd and puerile or that specifically indie scifi was causing them problems and they yanked my books I'd be angry, but I'd have no recourse. These companies answer to their shareholders and deal in a public relations arena far bigger than the little corner of the world that is indie publishing. If segments of it became problematic for a multi-national, multi-bilion dollar corporation I would fully expect steps to be taken. In other words... we can argue for weeks about what is offensive, too offensive, or whatever but the uncomfortable truth is that the platform belongs to Amazon and the ultimate decision about what stays or goes will be theirs.

There is a reason that the method of this purge should bother everybody here... there may come a day when self-publishing in general is something Amazon's board doesn't want to be associated with and we may all wake up and our titles will have been taken down with no warning or recourse. In that regard I think it could have been handled a little better.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker

cinisajoy said:


> THIS 100% this.
> 
> And slightly off-topic or totally on topic: my psych paper is still online. It is "The differences between Abuse and BDSM".


Can you please post a link. I would love to read this.


----------



## cinisajoy

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> Can you please post a link. I would love to read this.


Since it could be counted as self-promo, I will message you.

I think there is one typo in it if I remember right.


----------



## swolf

ClarissaWild said:


> I totally understand why they would ban bestiality, incest or rape, but a consenting bdsm relationship? Sorry, but no. You cannot seriously mean to say that FSOG 'crosses the same lines' as a book that's about incest, bestiality or rape. That is just wrong on so many levels, I can't even ...
> 
> oh lord, I give up.


That's where you draw the line. Someone else may draw it in a different place. Some may draw it with books that glorify murder. Does that mean, because of their opinion, those books shouldn't be sold?

We're talking about fictional characters doing fictional things. No one is getting hurt. Why does anyone care if someone is writing or reading it?

Of course, Amazon has the right to not sell any book they choose. But we as writers should be for free expression, and disagree with the censorship of any book being sold to adults. And even more so if we hate what the book contains. Because it demonstrates that we don't want anyone deciding what should and shouldn't be read. And if we agree that the censorship of THOSE books is okay, then when they come for ours because someone, somewhere is offended by it, we have to accept that too.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

swolf said:


> (&#8230 we as writers should be for free expression, and disagree with the censorship of any book being sold to adults. And even more so if we hate what the book contains. Because it demonstrates that we don't want anyone deciding what should and shouldn't be read. And if we agree that the censorship of THOSE books is okay, then when they come for ours because someone, somewhere is offended by it, we have to accept that too.


This. 100% this.

Completely unrelated, silly question. Does anyone know what Sony is doing and do we care?


----------



## WordSaladTongs

Andrew Ashling said:


> Does anyone know what Sony is doing and do we care?


Oh, man, my stomach hurts from laughing so hard. Thanks for that.

I'm not the only one who makes, like, $5 a month from Sony ... am I?


----------



## Gone To Croatan

WordSaladTongs said:


> I'm not the only one who makes, like, $5 a month from Sony ... am I?


I sold a book through Sony once. If you're making $5 a month there, you're doing much better than I am!


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

This short clip perfectly encapsulates what I am talking about when I talk about the dangers of censorship. Trying to excuse it under the guise of capitalism (Amazon can do what it wants) overlooks two things: hypocrisy and slippery slope. It's hypocrisy to block dubious consent books or incest titles and yet give a pass to the big sellers; that says because we are indie authors we aren't equally covered by the rules. Two, if we don't make noise and fight for our ability to be heard as authors, that ability-that RIGHT to be heard-can be eroded. Perhaps some petitions don't change a thing but is meekly lying down without even a protest an honorable thing to do? It merely emboldens those who assert that what we write IS shameful because we won't even defend it by taking 30 seconds to sign a petition.

This is one of my most favorite films because it tells the tale of a man willing to fight for his right to say what he wanted:


----------



## swolf

Ah, Larry Flint.  The man who introduced me to female genitalia.

It's cool they had him play the judge.  Thanks for posting that.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> When a company decides to remove titles from their US stores because of foreign mores and laws that has a direct impact on readers, writers and publishers. Yes, I do agree that it is a problem with their computer systems and how they distribute content, but it is also a problem with how they are handling these issues. If Kobo decided that they would remove all bibles from their stores because there was some controversy surrounding the text in a foreign country I would also be against that. And that would also unfairly impact readers who depend on Kobo to deliver content they want. However, I wouldn't mind the Bible being blocked in certain countries that prohibit the text. And I think that's a fair compromise.


There is no question people are impacted. I suspect a huge problem they face us they are not capable of identifying the characteristics of what is on their servers. The way they are handling the issue is a function of what they are capable of. I doubt they have flags set on each book that lets them know what they need to know for the current situation.

When the companies offered unrestricted access to authors, they took whatever came in. They didn't have a crew of editors going through the books and tagging them as adult, mature, family, etc. They took whatever came in the uploads and we all cheered the trampled gatekeepers.

So, following my uninformed speculation, they now have an inventory that can't be managed to meet the specific needs of the current problem. That's unfortunate, and there is plenty of brilliant analysis we can deliver in hindsight. But they are still stuck working with what they have. That's why nobody likes what they are doing.

And unfairly impacting readers? I disagree there. Kobo doesnt owe them anything. They sure don't owe me anything.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

multiple reports -- thread locked for review



after further review -- and some pruning -- we're re-opening the thread.  But it will be permanently locked at the first sign of nastiness.  We get that this is a topic a lot of people are fairly passionate about -- but courtesy is still required, thanks.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> wo, if we don't make noise and fight for our ability to be heard as authors, that ability-that RIGHT to be heard-can be eroded.


I have a right to speak, but as the years pass, I'm realizing nobody has an obligation to listen.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

Terrence OBrien said:


> When the companies offered unrestricted access to authors, they took whatever came in. They didn't have a crew of editors going through the books and tagging them as adult, mature, family, etc. They took whatever came in the uploads and we all cheered the trampled gatekeepers.


And yet what is an author supposed to do when the "community standards" are so impossibly vague-"What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect"-they can make it up as they go along, allow individual reviewers to apply their own prejudices and tastes, and pretend to be as "shocked" as Captain Renault to discover that gambling is going on in the casino he is getting a kickback from.

I only hope that Selena Kitt can establish an imprint that allows me to pull all but my most vanilla erotica books from Amazon and the "offensive" book revenue to go elsewhere.


----------



## swolf

On a positive note, some erotica authors have received emails from KDP listing books that had been pulled in error, and they are free to resubmit them without change.


----------



## gswright

swolf said:


> On a positive note, some erotica authors have received emails from KDP listing books that had been pulled in error, and they are free to resubmit them without change.


I received that email yesterday for two titles under my pen name. I resubmitted, and they blocked one title and let the other go through. The one blocked is for the "cover", though it is only of a face. There is some serious conflict within the approval department. :/


----------



## swolf

gswright said:


> I received that email yesterday for two titles under my pen name. I resubmitted, and they blocked one title and let the other go through. The one blocked is for the "cover", though it is only of a face. There is some serious conflict within the approval department. :/


We'll, that sucks. Sorry to hear that.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

CrystalVeeyant said:


> And yet what is an author supposed to do when the "community standards" are so impossibly vague-"What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect"-they can make it up as they go along, allow individual reviewers to apply their own prejudices and tastes, and pretend to be as "shocked" as Captain Renault to discover that gambling is going on in the casino he is getting a kickback from.
> 
> I only hope that Selena Kitt can establish an imprint that allows me to pull all but my most vanilla erotica books from Amazon and the "offensive" book revenue to go elsewhere.


I don't know what they are supposed to do. As I said earlier in a few threads, the standard will always be vague, and will never meet the objective precision that would allow anyone to look at the standards and determine if any specific book does or does not meet them. The standards will be made up as they go along, and they will change with the wind.

I expect the market will spin off sites where the subject books can be sold. I have never seen a situation where there is substantial demand and it is not met by someone.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

Terrence OBrien said:


> I don't know what they are supposed to do.


How about not making the standard so vague it is a meaningless standard?

How about a review process where one reviewer can't act as a one-man Hayes Office, applying his own biases?


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

Terrence OBrien said:


> I expect the market will spin off sites where the subject books can be sold. I have never seen a situation where there is substantial demand and it is not met by someone.


I and many others are hoping that Selena Kitt can accomplish that. PI is not my bread and butter but it is fun to write, and it is gratifying to know I am making that niche of readers happy. Nobody who enjoys an outré kink should be forced to read hack prose to scratch their particular itch.

BTW, if anyone still hasn't signed this petition, it's still open:

[URL=http://www.change]http://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-barnes-and-noble-kobo-leave-our-self-published-and-or-indie-authors-alone[/url]


----------



## polecat

I don't write PI but do write BDSM porn. (I like to call a spade a spade) I've only had one book banned and it's rather hilarious. The book "The Ring" had been up for a while when I decided to post the Spanish translation. That one got blocked. A few days, or perhaps weeks later, someone decided that if the translation was blocked perhaps the original should be too. So they did. But the original is still up for sale at Amazon, still selling and I am still getting my royalties from it!

I then submitted the translation at B&N and they published it with no problem. Of course it is a Pyrrhic victory since no one buys anything at B&N anyway.

I am worried that the gist of much of the debate is how to disguise the content so it gets through. It really should be the other way, how to make it clear so it doesn't show up where it shouldn't. Of course most of the blame lies on Amazon. If they put up a filter like Google does so you have to opt in to see adult content, the problem would be solved and I don't think it would affect sales that much. Those looking for porn, or pot or prostitution will always find it. Funny the three things start with a P.


----------



## cinisajoy

polecat said:


> I don't write PI but do write BDSM porn. (I like to call a spade a spade) I've only had one book banned and it's rather hilarious. The book "The Ring" had been up for a while when I decided to post the Spanish translation. That one got blocked. A few days, or perhaps weeks later, someone decided that if the translation was blocked perhaps the original should be too. So they did. But the original is still up for sale at Amazon, still selling and I am still getting my royalties from it!
> 
> I then submitted the translation at B&N and they published it with no problem. Of course it is a Pyrrhic victory since no one buys anything at B&N anyway.
> 
> I am worried that the gist of much of the debate is how to disguise the content so it gets through. It really should be the other way, how to make it clear so it doesn't show up where it shouldn't. Of course most of the blame lies on Amazon. If they put up a filter like Google does so you have to opt in to see adult content, the problem would be solved and I don't think it would affect sales that much. Those looking for porn, or pot or prostitution will always find it. Funny the three things start with a P.


Porn is easy, for prostitutes I'll go to Vegas but finding good pots is almost impossible.


----------



## mrv01d

Just FYI, BN is definitely purging books. No account shut downs since the last one I mentioned, but watch your dashboard for greyed out titles that you can't publish or otherwise activate.

M


----------



## Gone To Croatan

polecat said:


> I am worried that the gist of much of the debate is how to disguise the content so it gets through. It really should be the other way, how to make it clear so it doesn't show up where it shouldn't. Of course most of the blame lies on Amazon. If they put up a filter like Google does so you have to opt in to see adult content, the problem would be solved and I don't think it would affect sales that much.


Why should adults have to opt in to see 'adult' content? That merely encourages the less reputable writers to try to avoid the 'adult' tag, because many adults won't be seeing their books because they won't have enabled it.

Retailers don't need an 'adult' tag, they need a 'kid-safe' tag. There's no incentive for those writers to try to get a 'kid-safe' tag on their books, because kids are unlikely to want to read them. Then the problem goes away.

People pushing for an 'adult' tag are just making the problem worse.


----------



## Monique

Edward M. Grant said:


> Why should adults have to opt in to see 'adult' content? That merely encourages the less reputable writers to try to avoid the 'adult' tag, because many adults won't be seeing their books because they won't have enabled it.
> 
> Retailers don't need an 'adult' tag, they need a 'kid-safe' tag. There's no incentive for those writers to try to get a 'kid-safe' tag on their books, because kids are unlikely to want to read them. Then the problem goes away.
> 
> People pushing for an 'adult' tag are just making the problem worse.


I disagree. An adult filter makes more sense. You can't unsee something. In my opinion, it's better to have to expand the offerings than to see them all and think, 'Oh, crud'.


----------



## beccaprice

I agree, Monique. I don't read erotica, don't particularly want to see it (not that I object to it in principle, just not interested) - I'd much rather have the adult flag be opt in, because I don't read kid stuff either. 

but I want the adult flag to be fair - if something like "Daddy loves his little girl in all the wrong ways" gets the adult flag, so should any book that uses incest or PI as titulation be flagged as adult, even if it's published by the Big 5.


----------



## polecat

> but I want the adult flag to be fair - if something like "Daddy loves his little girl in all the wrong ways" gets the adult flag, so should any book that uses incest or PI as titulation be flagged as adult, even if it's published by the Big 5.


Hear hear!


----------



## cinisajoy

Ereaderiq automatically turns on their adult filter.  It takes one click to turn it off and see everything.    I like that I only see erotica if I want to.    Also on the same note: I would not let a child search for images of Cinderella without a safe search on.    Filters are much needed when so many words can mean so many different things.


----------



## swolf

If Amazon and the other retailers taking the heat these days had had an 'adult' switch, their simple response could have been, "Hey, you turned the switch on.  What were you expecting to see?"


----------



## RaeC

swolf said:


> If Amazon and the other retailers taking the heat these days had had an 'adult' switch, their simple response could have been, "Hey, you turned the switch on. What were you expecting to see?"


But that would be admitting they're filthy smut peddlers who sell so much erotica it *needs* a switch. No matter that coding and implementing a switch would probably be cheaper and more effective than what they're doing--image comes first!

Amazon's like the A-Rod of retailers.


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> If Amazon and the other retailers taking the heat these days had had an 'adult' switch, their simple response could have been, "Hey, you turned the switch on. What were you expecting to see?"


Puppies and kittens??


----------



## Someone

Two books removed by Amazon today
Offense?
Their only commonality is the word virgin in their titles


----------



## swolf

Someone said:


> Two books removed by Amazon today
> Offense?
> Their only commonality is the word virgin in their titles


Yeah, I had three with that word removed last night.

One of them also had the word p***y, but they didn't mind that.


----------



## JKenney

Small Publishers are starting to get pulled as well...

All based on title or keywords some of which were not EVEN erotica!



This is just NUTS....


----------



## Terrence OBrien

AdrianC said:


> But that would be admitting they're filthy smut peddlers who sell so much erotica it *needs* a switch. No matter that coding and implementing a switch would probably be cheaper and more effective than what they're doing--image comes first!
> 
> Amazon's like the A-Rod of retailers.


Image does come first. Many here have observed they consider Amazon to be a company that is focused on the long term rather than the short. I disagree, but if one does hold that position, image is a long term consideration.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

They are now censoring content now and it needn't be incest, pseudo-incest, rape, dubious consent or bestiality. As always the reviewer suggests I follow the content "guidelines"—"What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect. "—I think that Jerry Springer is offensive but I bet they'd sell his video or books—thus I have no guidelines with which to fix it. I've already gone through and changed all references of "Daddy"—said as a nickname or roleplay context—to "Master" and got rid of all other PI roleplay. STILL it got blocked again.

Smashwords is starting t look really good about now...


----------



## I Nympho

I'm a new erotica author and my publisher initially told me Amazon had me banned, the reason, they put me on a 7 day review. My publisher says it's usually a few hours to get a book approved by Amazon.

After they uploaded my work, KDP emailed them it was on a 7 day review due to content.

I'm their first erotica author, so they said they didn't think Amazon was going to approve new erotica, with all this banning they're doing, and my book has TEEN prominently in the title since it's about a just turned 18 year old stripper.

Half a day later, KDP published it though.

So sexually explicit work is getting through, as long as it has nothing the courts have defined as pornographic in it and nothing underage.

So it looks like erotica is still okay on Amazon.


----------



## jackz4000

Terrence OBrien said:


> There is no question people are impacted. I suspect a huge problem they face us they are not capable of identifying the characteristics of what is on their servers. The way they are handling the issue is a function of what they are capable of. I doubt they have flags set on each book that lets them know what they need to know for the current situation.
> 
> When the companies offered unrestricted access to authors, they took whatever came in. They didn't have a crew of editors going through the books and tagging them as adult, mature, family, etc. They took whatever came in the uploads and we all cheered the trampled gatekeepers.
> 
> So, following my uninformed speculation, they now have an inventory that can't be managed to meet the specific needs of the current problem. That's unfortunate, and there is plenty of brilliant analysis we can deliver in hindsight. But they are still stuck working with what they have. That's why nobody likes what they are doing.
> 
> And unfairly impacting readers? I disagree there. Kobo doesnt owe them anything. They sure don't owe me anything.


Agree. Whether Kobo, B&N, Amazon or whatever a store can sell products it wants to sell. If they don't want your product maybe another store will. When a store allows anyone to sell their faucets, electronics, ebooks or whatever, in time they may filter some out.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

I Nympho said:


> I'm their first erotica author, so they said they didn't think Amazon was going to approve new erotica, with all this banning they're doing, and my book has TEEN prominently in the title since it's about a just turned 18 year old stripper.
> 
> Half a day later, KDP published it though.
> 
> So sexually explicit work is getting through, as long as it has nothing the courts have defined as pornographic in it and nothing underage.


I think you just got lucky, although I believe that having an actual publisher on your side may have done the trick for you. It appears that it is self-published that is getting the most scrutiny. It is also dependent on the prejudices of the individual reviewer. With no meaningful rules to apply-"What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect. "-they can make it up as they go along, which is incredibly frustrating and time-consuming.


----------



## Sarma

I don't want call out another author/board member, so sorry if this is out of bounds. After some research yesterday, I'm questioning if PI is really banned, or if they just want us to hide it. There's no mention of Daddy/PI in this title/cover/blurb, but when you look inside, it's stepdad/father/Daddy, etc. I've found several PI books that were republished with a cleaned up image.

Though I hate the idea of misleading readers, if covert PI is allowed for some, I might try my chances at getting my PI stories back up.



Spoiler



http://www.amazon.com/Too-Make-Babies-Nicole-Snow-ebook/dp/B00BRMMAKS/ref=pd_sim_kstore_3


----------



## KMatthew

Sarma said:


> I don't want call out another author/board member, so sorry if this is out of bounds. After some research yesterday, I'm questioning if PI is really banned, or if they just want us to hide it. There's no mention of Daddy/PI in this title/cover/blurb, but when you look inside, it's stepdad/father/Daddy, etc. I've found several PI books that were republished with a cleaned up image.
> 
> Though I hate the idea of misleading readers, if covert PI is allowed for some, I might try my chances at getting my PI stories back up.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Too-Make-Babies-Nicole-Snow-ebook/dp/B00BRMMAKS/ref=pd_sim_kstore_3


I might rework my PI titles after I'm done with my current WIP. Seems like it's working for most PI writers, though I still don't think I'll be adding anymore PI titles to my catalog. I think hiding what the story is about via title and blurb is more sketchy than the sub-genre itself.


----------



## Daizie

KMatthew said:


> I might rework my PI titles after I'm done with my current WIP. Seems like it's working for most PI writers, though I still don't think I'll be adding anymore PI titles to my catalog. I think hiding what the story is about via title and blurb is more sketchy than the sub-genre itself.


I know. I don't like this prancy dancing that Amazon wants authors to do in the blurbs. It's not honest. I don't get what's so bad about PI anyway, why it's this icky category of books all of a sudden.


----------



## cinisajoy

If I was Amazon, the first thing I would target would be those authors that did not put their erotic stuff in the erotic category.  Then so those authors cannot scream about other mis-doers, I would look for the incest (real and pseudo), dubcon and other things that have been determined illegal or obscene.  If amazon only wants clean erotica, give them clean erotica.    I mean really does it have to be a relative?  Make a clean version for Amazon and put the relationship at other locations.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

cinisajoy said:


> If I was Amazon, the first thing I would target would be those authors that did not put their erotic stuff in the erotic category.


If I were Amazon the first thing I do would be to state exactly what they consider to be "obscene" or "offensive." The current guideline is so moronically vague it is no guideline at all. Are the reviewers working with more specific guidelines or are they just as blinded by generality as the authors?


----------



## cinisajoy

CrystalVeeyant said:


> If I were Amazon the first thing I do would be to state exactly what they consider to be "obscene" or "offensive." The current guideline is so moronically vague it is no guideline at all. Are the reviewers working with more specific guidelines or are they just as blinded by generality as the authors?


I would bet the reviewers do have guidelines as to what to look for. There would almost have to be. Now here is the kicker: incest is incest no matter how you slice it. Let me rephrase that: if you change one word to get around the tag then one is just gaming the system. IEaddy to Step-daddy. Same idea. Still the parental dynamic and yes will get some knickers in a twist. Rape is another touchy subject. Did she or did she not consent?

Hey idea. Rather than doing PI how about mom's leaves Kyle then daughter starts dating (nice word) Kyle after he moves out. Then it would not be PI.


----------



## polecat

Can we write a biography of Woody Allen?
Woody Allen the unauthorized story


----------



## cinisajoy

polecat said:


> Can we write a biography of Woody Allen?
> Woody Allen the unauthorized story


Probably a quick amazon search in books turned up 217 results. I think the bio has been done, over and over and over.


----------



## Willo

CrystalVeeyant said:


> If I were Amazon the first thing I do would be to state exactly what they consider to be "obscene" or "offensive."


That or they can just implement an adult-switch like a sane retailer, and stop wasting everyone's time with the inconsistent targeting of whatever flavor of the week is deemed unacceptable. As for pseudo-incest, I personally don't find in-law love sexy, but it's not actual incest, so the stories aren't depicting an "illegal" act. There is no blood connection, no matter how Amazon wants to slice it. As for any monster/shifter erotica being targeted, if romance readers can have their werewolves, I see no reason why erotica readers can't have their shifters. Let people read whatever legal material they want. Murder is illegal, and there is PLENTY of graphically violent content available for the picking. Whether it's written to titillate or not, someone who's_ seeking it _for titillation can use it that way. No one needs their retailer to be their literary babysitter. This is ridiculous already, and needs to stop.



CrystalVeeyant said:


> The current guideline is so* moronically vague* it is no guideline at all.


This.


----------



## cinisajoy

Willo said:


> That or they can just implement an adult-switch like a sane retailer, and stop wasting everyone's time with the inconsistent targeting of whatever flavor of the week is deemed unacceptable. As for pseudo-incest, I personally don't find in-law love sexy, but it's not actual incest, so the stories aren't depicting an "illegal" act. There is no blood connection, no matter how Amazon wants to slice it. As for any monster/shifter erotica being targeted, if romance readers can have their werewolves, I see no reason why erotica readers can't have their shifters. Let people read whatever legal material they want. Murder is illegal, and there is PLENTY of graphically violent content available for the picking. Whether it's written to titillate or not, someone who's_ seeking it _for titillation can use it that way. No one needs their retailer to be their literary babysitter. This is ridiculous already, and needs to stop.
> 
> This.


Your idea sounds good. Now what should they do about ''authors'' that don't put their erotica in erotica but package it to look like something else? That is half the problem right now is some ''authors" put their erotica where it can be found by children looking for halloween costumes. What should be done about them?


----------



## daringnovelist

Daizie said:


> I know. I don't like this prancy dancing that Amazon wants authors to do in the blurbs. It's not honest. I don't get what's so bad about PI anyway, why it's this icky category of books all of a sudden.


I think I can answer that (don't take this as being my position -- this is an explanation of the logic):

First you have to stop and think about why _fiction_ which depicts incest for titillation is out of bounds. It's fiction. No real child was exploited to create it. It's just pretend. Like play acting. But it's still illegal and banned from sites.

Why shouldn't it be okay to depict a parent having sex with a minor child as long as it's all fiction?

Because it "promotes" the practice of an illegal activity. (And one I think we're all glad is illegal.)

If you accept that as the reason for banning incest smut, then you have to take a second look at pseudo-incest. How much of that is still promoting the same kink? How much is it really the story of a young adult struggling with feelings for a step-parent who never actually had a regular parent-child relationship with her, and how much is it just illegal incest smut with words changed to make it pass the censors... but it's still appealing to the same audience for the same reasons?

There are a whole lot of arguments for whether incest smut should be allowed -- but if you accept that it isn't, then you have to accept that the reasons it's disallowed apply to anything that mimics it as well. And laws that apply to one tend to be worded to apply to others, because the child p*rn industry has a long-standing practice of disguising itself.

Camille


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> That or they can just implement an adult-switch like a sane retailer, and stop wasting everyone's time with the inconsistent targeting of whatever flavor of the week is deemed unacceptable.


Same problem. What are the guidelines for turning on the adult switch for a single book?

Can anyone provide a written guideline for that? I can't. Not smart enough.


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

cinisajoy said:


> Hey idea. Rather than doing PI how about mom's leaves Kyle then daughter starts dating (nice word) Kyle after he moves out. Then it would not be PI.


If some writer wants to take up that idea, go for it, however, the PI audience has a specific taste and "______ moves out" wouldn't satisfy most of them. The PI being censored is between consenting adults not related by biology. That might be "icky" to some-some people think oral sexy is "icky"-but it isn't illegal. There is no rational basis for this censorship except the "ick" factor and crusading tabloid "journalism."

FYI, I'll bet you $100K that if your hypothetical story had the former stepdaughter calling Kyle "Daddy" as they made love, Amazon would block the book. I know this for a fact because they banned one of my titles for incest roleplay between characters.

P.S. Here is the whole argument against "icky" sex in a nutshell: "Vanilla tastes good. Why do we need strawberry or chocolate?"


----------



## Willo

cinisajoy said:


> Your idea sounds good. Now what should they do about ''authors'' that don't put their erotica in erotica but package it to look like something else? That is half the problem right now is some ''authors" put their erotica where it can be found by children looking for halloween costumes. What should be done about them?


All Kdp books go through a review. Reviewers can add the adult tag to erotica titles that aren't tagged as such. If Smashwords can do it, Amazon can definitely handle an adult switch.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Amazon is a bit in a quandary here.

On the one hand they want to promote the idea that you can get any and all books on kindle. They also know that where there is sufficient demand, supply will soon follow. In other words, if they completely ban it, that will probably create an opening for vendors who will give the public what it wants.

Could it be that they're being deliberately vague? They want erotica authors to clean up their blurbs, covers and titles. They're not targeting the actual content. Maybe that's also why they keep sending copy/paste mails when someone asks for clarification. They don't want to give clarification, in hopes that after the external elements of the books are cleaned up they will fly under the radar of the immoral book burners. At the same time they can't admit to that because they want to retain plausible deniability.


----------



## JKenney

They can add an adult switch, and if a book is mislabeled remove it for a violation. One complaint would be a quick and easy catch. Though I have never seen any mislabeled "child" luring erotica, on Amazon or anywhere else. It is against the authors interest since those seeking these books wouldn't find it, and a child wouldn't be able or willing to buy such a thing. Just blows the mind.  

Anyway, the whole PI thing Simone Scarlet put out a new How to book: In Violation...etc... which she is offering Free...

Where she suggests that the PI thing just has to be EXTREMELY consistent...i.e. Step-daddy in title, description, and cover. But they aren't official guidelines so much as a feel for what the Amazon proofreaders are looking for.

The problem is that there are SO many titles that have been pushed out, and each reviewer might have a different view of what is REALLY okay that until this tabloid S**t storm blows over things will be nuts.... 

This is such an obscene overreaction that frustrates me to no end. Next month someone will be ranting about BDSM as rape or Vampire sex as Necrophilia, or whatever crawls up their posteriors...They need to just create an adult button, define what qualifies, limit access, require ALL books to check it yes or no, and MOVE ON!


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Willo said:


> All Kdp books go through a review. Reviewers can add the adult tag to erotica titles that aren't tagged as such. If Smashwords can do it, Amazon can definitely handle an adult switch.


What evidence do we have that humans look at every KDP submission? What do they review? Do they read it? How much of it.

What are the guidelines for identifying and tagging erotica.


----------



## Willo

It's definitely possible they're being strategically vague, but I just think it's the silliest way to handle this kind of thing that anyone on their team could ever think up. As a reader, I wouldn't be irritated with the author if my child happened upon werewolf erotica while searching for a werewolf Halloween costume. I'd be p*ssed at Amazon for allowing *any *adult content - 50 Shades included - to be available without a switch or similar wall only accessible by an adult account holder. Why just focus on indie eBooks, you know? Wall off all of the trad pubbed erotica, sex toys and porno videos in their store (some of which contain full nudity on the covers), too.

Amazon has created a mess for themselves with the way their approaching this. Cryptobooks already popped up, and I'm sure there will be plenty of others to follow. If readers develop new buying habits at smaller retailers who sell them "the actual eBook" for use in any reader of their choice, it can affect their market share over time. Bigger giants have fallen. When sideloading catches on, proprietary eReaders could quickly become a thing of the past (I use my phone to read most of the books I buy as it is - it's smaller to handle and always in pocket).

ETA:



JKenney said:


> They can add an adult switch, and if a book is mislabeled remove it for a violation. One complaint would be a quick and easy catch. Though I have never seen any mislabeled "child" luring erotica, on Amazon or anywhere else. It is against the authors interest since those seeking these books wouldn't find it, and a child wouldn't be able or willing to buy such a thing. Just blows the mind.


Right? It seems like a simple deduction to me, but Amazon wants to makes this complicates and do this piecemeal, so it takes them a year or two to get things "under control" in their store.



JKenney said:


> This is such an obscene overreaction that frustrates me to no end. *Next month someone will be ranting about BDSM as rape or Vampire sex as Necrophilia, or whatever crawls up their posteriors...*They need to just create an adult button, limit access, require ALL books to check it yes or no, and MOVE ON!


Seriously, I couldn't agree more.



> What evidence do we have that humans look at every KDP submission?


If not, it's time to get those algorithms they tinker with so much prepared to highlight books that don't check off "erotica" but contain highly adult words to move into a manual review queue. If they can track misspelled words, they can easily find other four letter words and similar. I don't think this is the slightest bit difficult to figure out for a retail giant with the resources to handle it. Again, if Smashwords can handle it, so can Amazon.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Ok. Amazon falls because they don't carry the books in question. So what? If others rise up and do carry them, then consumer demand has triumphed in the market, and authors are happy. Normal Econ 101.

Let the consumers speak with their wallets.


----------



## polecat

> Amazon is a bit in a quandary here.
> 
> On the one hand they want to promote the idea that you can get any and all books on kindle. They also know that where there is sufficient demand, supply will soon follow. In other words, if they completely ban it, that will probably create an opening for vendors who will give the public what it wants.
> 
> Could it be that they're being deliberately vague? They want erotica authors to clean up their blurbs, covers and titles. They're not targeting the actual content. Maybe that's also why they keep sending copy/paste mails when someone asks for clarification. They don't want to give clarification, in hopes that after the external elements of the books are cleaned up they will fly under the radar of the immoral book burners. At the same time they can't admit to that because they want to retain plausible deniability.


Hmm. You might be on to something here.


----------



## X. Aratare

I have read all these thread eagerly (though with a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach) and I haven't commented before because I get into this mad frothing rage at the hypocrisy of it all.  But I decided to blast away anyways b/c I feel like a some might still think that this is a situation about barring adult material or not barring it.  Or simply: saving the children! as I like to put it.  

Here's the thing: it isn't!  It's about hypocrisy.

How so?

50 Shades of Gray would likely be BANNED from Amazon right this minute if it weren't already under a Big 5 publisher's protection, but remember the only reason 50 Shades existed to be picked up by the Big 5 in the first place is that AMAZON ALLOWED IT TO BE SOLD as an indie work.  This was at a time when the notorious Carlos F. wasn't allowed to banhammer so handily. 50 Shades of Gray is ADULT.  No one can argue that.  No one.

If Flowers in the Attic were published by an indie today it would also likely be BANNED.  Now you can argue it wouldn't b/c its not to titilate (and I would say in response you haven't read the books if you think that!).  Believe me, the brother-sister attraction plays a HUGE role in why that series when it came out and today has such an effect.  Taboo topics tend to sell b/c they fascinate us.

Again, incest and violence against kids. This is ADULT.  Sorry, but that's the reality of it.

Hypocrisy is what truly ticks me off. You don't want sexy books on Amazon or Kobo or WH Smith then you better ban 99% of romance and some of the biggest sellers out there, because there be SEX in them books that NO KID SHOULD READ.  That's right!  They are romance books, supposedly not "erotica", but there is TONS OF SEX IN THEM.  The readers point it out in the reviews.  The readers WANT the sex in them.  Shocking, I know!  Sex or at least sexual attraction is at the heart of romance, even SWEET romance, because you're talking about subliminal sexual attraction at least.  

Is Amazon going to censor all of Harlequin?  B/c believe me there's SEX there, too.  

Is Amazon going to censor any of the big romance imprints?  Tons of sex.  Totally adult and NOT for kids.

No, of course not.  Because that would be consistent with their supposed "morality" but not consistent with the reality of book selling.  Romance books are NOT FOR CHILDREN.  Stop.  End.  Finito.  But NO ONE stops a kid from buying a romance book that's been put out by Harlequin or any other big romance publisher.  There's no 18 plus on those books.

People say with a knowing nod about erotica: well, that's dirty stuff, who wants to see that?  The erotica writers SHOULD be put behind a wall.  My stuff is nothing like THAT.  I just write SPICY romance!  

Not to wail on spicy romance authors, but seriously, is your stuff for kids either?  It's not.  You know its not.  But yet the argument is made with a straight face that spicy romance should be on the main store while erotica writers are shunted into a corner or barred altogether b/c of the kids?  

The truth is that it makes no sense that all romance books aren't filtered.  If we are so concerned with what children are going to see then we should put ALL ROMANCE and anything with sex, violence, etc. behind a filter.  Not just erotica.  ALL OF IT.  Because the truth is there is TONS of stuff on Amazon that kids shouldn't be reading.  But erotica authors are targeted, b/c let's face it they put the "good stuff" on the cover and the blurb.

You like Flowers in the Attic b/c of brother sister incest?  Well, we've got a book for you!

And there's nothing wrong with that.  It can be crass and tacky.  God knows that may be in the eye of the beholder.  But what doesn't change is the fact that Flowers in the Attic and some Step-Daddy action shouldn't be read by CHILDREN.  Neither is appropriate, but Flowers in the Attic will be given a pass b/c its horror (snort).  It's not just horror.  Its incest and its horror.  

Instead of dealing with wishy washy guidelines, I propose that all the book sellers do the reasonable thing: stick ANYTHING with violet or sexual content (including romance) behind a filter. Those are ONLY for adults.  Likely that would mean almost every single book except for middle grade and kids books are behind the filter.  Because that's the only way the kids are going to be truly safe ... until they figure out how to get around the filter, which they will probably learn far before mom and dad.

Rant off.


----------



## swolf

cinisajoy said:


> That is half the problem right now is some ''authors" put their erotica where it can be found by children looking for halloween costumes. What should be done about them?


You're confused. Those books aren't showing up in those searches because of categories. They're showing up because of keyword and title matches, and because Amazon doesn't differentiate between erotica and non-erotica unless the adult filter has been applied.


----------



## Willo

X. Aratare said:


> #FavoriteRantOfTheDay





X. Aratare said:


> If Flowers in the Attic were published by an indie today it would also likely be BANNED. Now you can argue it wouldn't b/c its not to titilate (and I would say in response you haven't read the books if you think that!). Believe me, the brother-sister attraction plays a HUGE role in why that series when it came out and today has such an effect. Taboo topics tend to sell b/c they fascinate us.
> 
> You like Flowers in the Attic b/c of brother sister incest? Well, we've got a book for you!
> 
> And there's nothing wrong with that. It can be crass and tacky. God knows that may be in the eye of the beholder. But what doesn't change is the fact that Flowers in the Attic and some Step-Daddy action shouldn't be read by CHILDREN. Neither is appropriate, but Flowers in the Attic will be given a pass b/c its horror (snort). It's not just horror. Its incest and its horror.


I read Flowers in the Attic when I was 12 (and Jackie Collins books before that  ). If it's "mainstream media," it's acceptable, right?

If indie media makers are profiting on the other hand, save the children! Totally agreed about uniform filtering. Filter ALL erotica, trad pubs included, so the target audience knows to turn on the switch to buy the content* they want*.



> Ok. Amazon falls because they don't carry the books in question. So what? If others rise up and do carry them, then consumer demand has triumphed in the market, and authors are happy. Normal Econ 101.
> 
> Let the consumers speak with their wallets.


Agreed.

-

ETA: Comma medicine


----------



## swolf

[quote author=daringnovelist]

Because it "promotes" the practice of an illegal activity.
[/quote]

That's ridiculous. If that's true, then murder mysteries promote murders, and books about serial killers promote serial killing, books about drug abuse promote drug use, and books about terrorists promote terrorism. Studies have shown that people interested in reading about incest are not interested in having sex with members of their family.


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> You're confused. Those books aren't showing up in those searches because of categories. They're showing up because of keyword and title matches, and because Amazon doesn't differentiate between erotica and non-erotica unless the adult filter has been applied.


Ok does the author or Amazon apply the keyword?
If it is the author then put the blame where it lays (lies).

I have seen authors talk here that say they do not want the adult tag so they do not use it for obvious erotica. They want to be found in all searches.

Oh and I looked again today I can still get 117,000+ erotic books both indie and trad at Amazon.


----------



## swolf

cinisajoy said:


> Ok does the author or Amazon apply the keyword?
> If it is the author then put the blame where it lays (lies).


You can't think of any keywords that may be common?



> I have seen authors talk here that say they do not want the adult tag so they do not use it for obvious erotica. They want to be found in all searches.


You're confused about what the adult filter is. There are plenty of threads about it. You should do some research.



> Oh and I looked again today I can still get 117,000+ erotic books both indie and trad at Amazon.


And?


----------



## JShepard

X. Aratare said:


> I have read all these thread eagerly (though with a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach) and I haven't commented before because I get into this mad frothing rage at the hypocrisy of it all. But I decided to blast away anyways b/c I feel like a some might still think that this is a situation about barring adult material or not barring it. Or simply: saving the children! as I like to put it.
> 
> Here's the thing: it isn't! It's about hypocrisy.
> 
> How so?
> 
> 50 Shades of Gray would likely be BANNED from Amazon right this minute if it weren't already under a Big 5 publisher's protection, but remember the only reason 50 Shades existed to be picked up by the Big 5 in the first place is that AMAZON ALLOWED IT TO BE SOLD as an indie work. This was at a time when the notorious Carlos F. wasn't allowed to banhammer so handily. 50 Shades of Gray is ADULT. No one can argue that. No one.
> 
> If Flowers in the Attic were published by an indie today it would also likely be BANNED. Now you can argue it wouldn't b/c its not to titilate (and I would say in response you haven't read the books if you think that!). Believe me, the brother-sister attraction plays a HUGE role in why that series when it came out and today has such an effect. Taboo topics tend to sell b/c they fascinate us.
> 
> Again, incest and violence against kids. This is ADULT. Sorry, but that's the reality of it.
> 
> Hypocrisy is what truly ticks me off. You don't want sexy books on Amazon or Kobo or WH Smith then you better ban 99% of romance and some of the biggest sellers out there, because there be SEX in them books that NO KID SHOULD READ. That's right! They are romance books, supposedly not "erotica", but there is TONS OF SEX IN THEM. The readers point it out in the reviews. The readers WANT the sex in them. Shocking, I know! Sex or at least sexual attraction is at the heart of romance, even SWEET romance, because you're talking about subliminal sexual attraction at least.
> 
> Is Amazon going to censor all of Harlequin? B/c believe me there's SEX there, too.
> 
> Is Amazon going to censor any of the big romance imprints? Tons of sex. Totally adult and NOT for kids.
> 
> No, of course not. Because that would be consistent with their supposed "morality" but not consistent with the reality of book selling. Romance books are NOT FOR CHILDREN. Stop. End. Finito. But NO ONE stops a kid from buying a romance book that's been put out by Harlequin or any other big romance publisher. There's no 18 plus on those books.
> 
> People say with a knowing nod about erotica: well, that's dirty stuff, who wants to see that? The erotica writers SHOULD be put behind a wall. My stuff is nothing like THAT. I just write SPICY romance!
> 
> Not to wail on spicy romance authors, but seriously, is your stuff for kids either? It's not. You know its not. But yet the argument is made with a straight face that spicy romance should be on the main store while erotica writers are shunted into a corner or barred altogether b/c of the kids?
> 
> The truth is that it makes no sense that all romance books aren't filtered. If we are so concerned with what children are going to see then we should put ALL ROMANCE and anything with sex, violence, etc. behind a filter. Not just erotica. ALL OF IT. Because the truth is there is TONS of stuff on Amazon that kids shouldn't be reading. But erotica authors are targeted, b/c let's face it they put the "good stuff" on the cover and the blurb.
> 
> You like Flowers in the Attic b/c of brother sister incest? Well, we've got a book for you!
> 
> And there's nothing wrong with that. It can be crass and tacky. God knows that may be in the eye of the beholder. But what doesn't change is the fact that Flowers in the Attic and some Step-Daddy action shouldn't be read by CHILDREN. Neither is appropriate, but Flowers in the Attic will be given a pass b/c its horror (snort). It's not just horror. Its incest and its horror.
> 
> Instead of dealing with wishy washy guidelines, I propose that all the book sellers do the reasonable thing: stick ANYTHING with violet or sexual content (including romance) behind a filter. Those are ONLY for adults. Likely that would mean almost every single book except for middle grade and kids books are behind the filter. Because that's the only way the kids are going to be truly safe ... until they figure out how to get around the filter, which they will probably learn far before mom and dad.
> 
> Rant off.


Why not just use the Netflix way of things? Have a button just for kids. In the kid's section nothing but kid's stuff. As an adult, I don't want to be punished because (gasp) kids use the internet too. There are fewer kid's books than everything else.

And for the people who say "ERMEHGERD! KIDZ WILL FIND ADULZ STUFF!" Well, kids are going to learn about it sooner or later. If not from books, the internet, Game of Thrones, True Blood, ect. then they'll learn about it from their friends or, better yet, members of the opposite sex who know as much as they do or learned from watching revenge porn. Talk to your kids. Sex isn't dirty, disgusting, or gross. Teach kids about it. Studies show that children well educated about sex make better decisions regarding it.

However, the drawback is that - wait for it - people will have to talk to their kids about a subject that's uncomfortable. And I understand that, but my point is that I doubt all the kiddies amazon is trying to protect only see naughty stuff when they go to amazon for books. I see sex ads when I log into facebook. I doubt I'm the only one.


----------



## X. Aratare

Willo said:


> I read Flowers in the Attic when I was 12 (and Jackie Collins books before that  ). If it's "mainstream media," it's acceptable, right?
> 
> If indie media makers are profiting on the other hand, save the children! Totally agreed about uniform filtering. Filter ALL erotica, trad pubs included, so the target audience knows to turn on the switch to buy the content* they want*.
> 
> ETA: Comma medicine


I read Flowers in the Attic too when I was 12. I think it's like a rite of passage or something and I turned out all right ... oh, wait, I write gay romance ... hmmm, maybe some wouldn't consider me "all right".

I'm glad that I'm not the only person to feel that this thread didn't quite hit the reality of things. I just realized as I was reading all the comments here that people weren't thinking clearly. They believe that their "line in the sand" about what is acceptable or not is "how things should be" and is "perfectly rational" and like "the right thing." But in reality, its just well, garbage. It's hypocritical, nonsensical and if they really thought about it, they would realize that it simply is unworkable in this day and age.

For those who honestly believe that their kids (a) don't know about pron; (b) haven't seen it; (c) have been shocked by what they find on the internet; and/or (d) can truly be sheltered from "inappropriate material" when all those kids need to do is turn on the TV and watch Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars, etc. (btw look this stuff up if you don't know it b/c in PLL we have an underage girl getting it on with her highschool teacher, etc. and its on PRIME TIME and aimed at TEENAGERS and PRETEENS, oh yeah, baby, its for the kids!) I say to them: you are living in a dream world and you need to wake up. You need to teach your kids good critical thinking skills so that when they encounter things like pron they can assimilate it properly (or whatever you think is proper) and go on to lead happy, productive lives.

And your point about mainstream is spot on!

That which is deemed "mainstream" doesn't suddenly really make that material acceptable for kids. It just means that some "mainstream" business was like: wow, we can push the envelope and make a ton of money! Woo hoo! And since mainstream is given the benefit of the doubt (oh that thumb on the scale) those who challenge them are seen as "kooks". But holy smokes if you aren't "mainstream" you're getting the banhammer and, worse, you're getting those hypocritical cluckings about you, your dirty books and get the hell out b/c you're ruining it for the rest of us.

Don't assume because you don't write "those books" that your material is okay for kids, because romance writers, horror writers, action-adventure writers ... I'm sorry but your books aren't for kids either. You ARE NOT writing for children and quite frankly you shouldn't be getting any more of a pass than any other book that's not for kids.

But here's the thing: I'm all for everyone either behind behind the filter or ... NO ONE being behind it and having parents figure out how to watch their kids at the computer and for Amazon/Kobo/et al. to make categories and search terms that won't overlap (no erotica writer wants kids to see their books. why? b/c kids aren't their audience! they can't make money there! Amazon is clever enough to make sure that never the twain shall meet).

But unless indies stick together, especially sticking up for those who write "fringe" material (and how fringe is it when these erotica writers/romance writers/horror writers are bringing in tons of cold hard cash?), we're all sunk. Because your "spicy" romance may be next on the chopping block or, if you're Kobo, it already is.


----------



## X. Aratare

JShepard said:


> Why not just use the Netflix way of things? Have a button just for kids. In the kid's section nothing but kid's stuff. As an adult, I don't want to be punished because (gasp) kids use the internet too. There are fewer kid's books than everything else.
> 
> And for the people who say "ERMEHGERD! KIDZ WILL FIND ADULZ STUFF!" Well, kids are going to learn about it sooner or later. If not from books, the internet, Game of Thrones, True Blood, ect. then they'll learn about it from their friends or, better yet, members of the opposite sex who know as much as they do or learned from watching revenge porn. Talk to your kids. Sex isn't dirty, disgusting, or gross. Teach kids about it. Studies show that children well educated about sex make better decisions regarding it.
> 
> However, the drawback is that - wait for it - people will have to talk to their kids about a subject that's uncomfortable. And I understand that, but my point is that I doubt all the kiddies amazon is trying to protect only see naughty stuff when they go to amazon for books. I see sex ads when I log into facebook. I doubt I'm the only one.


THIS! This is what I wanted to say and you said it so much better. Good god, THIS.


----------



## JShepard

X. Aratare said:


> THIS! This is what I wanted to say and you said it so much better. Good god, THIS.


Thank you. I am glad I'm not alone in this line of thinking.


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> You can't think of any keywords that may be common?
> 
> You're confused about what the adult filter is.


 There are plenty of threads about it. You should do some research.
Halloween vampires brought up both costumes and a few erotic books. This tells me that the author did not put it in erotica. 
It was my understanding that if you tag your erotica as erotica then it does not show up in a general search.
What is the adult filter? Who applies it?

Why should I research when I asked a simple question?

And since there is still over 100,000 erotic titles, that tells me that they are only banning the stuff that is against their TOS.

Maybe a taboo author should start a store that only sells taboo erotica. 
Amazon is not the only retailer.


----------



## swolf

I don't agree with just the 'Kids' switch.  There are plenty of adults who don't want porn showing up in searches, and they shouldn't have to deal with it if it bothers them.


----------



## cinisajoy

I read Flowers in the attic too.  I do not remember the brother/sister aspect being anywhere near incest.  Yea I know he washed her hair and they did other close things too but it was not the main premise of the book.


----------



## swolf

cinisajoy said:


> Halloween vampires brought up both costumes and a few erotic books. This tells me that the author did not put it in erotica.


Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion.



cinisajoy said:


> It was my understanding that if you tag your erotica as erotica then it does not show up in a general search.


How did you come to that understanding?



cinisajoy said:


> Why should I research when I asked a simple question?


Why are you coming to conclusions without knowledge of the subject you're discussing?



cinisajoy said:


> And since there is still over 100,000 erotic titles, that tells me that they are only banning the stuff that is against their TOS.


Have your ever read the TOS concerning erotica?



cinisajoy said:


> Maybe a taboo author should start a store that only sells taboo erotica.
> Amazon is not the only retailer.


Why would I do that when Amazon still sells it? And still attracts plenty of readers who want to read it.

Obviously, your opinion of what shouldn't be read is not shared by everyone.


----------



## JShepard

swolf said:


> I don't agree with just the 'Kids' switch. There are plenty of adults who don't want porn showing up in searches, and they shouldn't have to deal with it if it bothers them.


Yeah, but my definition of porn and yours might be completely different. But we can all agree what products are for kids or for adults.


----------



## swolf

cinisajoy said:


> I read Flowers in the attic too. I do not remember the brother/sister aspect being anywhere near incest. Yea I know he washed her hair and they did other close things too but it was not the main premise of the book.


They had sex. Maybe your parents tore out some pages.


----------



## mrv01d

cinisajoy said:


> There are plenty of threads about it. You should do some research.
> Halloween vampires brought up both costumes and a few erotic books. This tells me that the author did not put it in erotica.
> It was my understanding that if you tag your erotica as erotica then it does not show up in a general search.
> What is the adult filter? Who applies it?
> 
> Why should I research when I asked a simple question?
> 
> And since there is still over 100,000 erotic titles, that tells me that they are only banning the stuff that is against their TOS.
> 
> Maybe a taboo author should start a store that only sells taboo erotica.
> Amazon is not the only retailer.


No not how it works at all. Erotica is just a category it does not segregate content.

Also re others' comments on Flowers in the Attic, I started reading it as a kid and found it so disturbing, I couldn't finish the first book. So that must make me a real deviant lol


----------



## DarkScribe

swolf said:


> I don't agree with just the 'Kids' switch. There are plenty of adults who don't want porn showing up in searches, and they shouldn't have to deal with it if it bothers them.


I am one of them. Clumsy and crude porn doesn't appeal to me, and unless they can really define "erotica" the way I regard it, then I would sooner not deal with every amateur EL James out there. I am certainly not anti erotica (ask my wife), I just prefer the DIY variety (ask her again.)


----------



## X. Aratare

cinisajoy said:


> I read Flowers in the attic too. I do not remember the brother/sister aspect being anywhere near incest. Yea I know he washed her hair and they did other close things too but it was not the main premise of the book.


He raped her on the rooftop and there were chapters and chapters about his lust for her. She and her brother end up getting married. Yeah .. you might have forgotten that. She also has sex in the bath with a man that takes them in (he's older, a doctor, and tells her to cum, I don't think she's 18 yet either). She also has sex with her stepfather. In short, this book should be NO WHERE near kids regardless if you think that children being abused by their mother, grandparents, et al. is somehow okay for kids, but the "sex" part of it somehow would make it not so.

I want to make clear that I don't think kids should be sheltered from this stuff. I think it has to be an individual parent's decision what their kids are ready for. But as to your belief that Flowers in the Attic is somehow kid-friendly ... well, I'd re-think that.

Oh, and one more thing, the books that the author's estate commissioned to be written by other authors, do you know what the MAIN THRUST in each book is? Incest ... yeah, so if Flowers' power wasn't about incest why on earth would it be in the focus of those other books?


----------



## swolf

JShepard said:


> Yeah, but my definition of porn and yours might be completely different. But we can all agree what products are for kids or for adults.


If a book is classified as erotica by the author, it would be hidden. If Amazon discovers authors classifying erotica in other categories, then ban the book. Authors will quickly get the message.


----------



## X. Aratare

DarkScribe said:


> I am one of them. Clumsy and crude porn doesn't appeal to me, and unless they can really define "erotica" the way I regard it, then I would sooner not deal with every amateur EL James out there. I am certainly not anti erotica (ask my wife), I just prefer the DIY variety (ask her again.)


That's your preference, but guess what, we're all inconvenienced from time to time. We deal with it as adults. And we move on. It is no one's duty to sanitize the world to your individual tastes.


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion.
> 
> How did you come to that understanding?
> 
> Why are you coming to conclusions without knowledge of the subject you're discussing?
> 
> Have your ever read the TOS concerning erotica?
> 
> Why would I do that when Amazon still sells it? And still attracts plenty of readers who want to read it.
> 
> Obviously, your opinion of what shouldn't be read is not shared by everyone.


Never mind. 
And yes I have read the TOS.

*I never said it should not be read. Only that Amazon does not have to sell it.*
Thank you for misunderstanding me.
*I like my erotica as much as the next person but I do not want to give those that don't like any reason to take it away from me.*
This is why I think and wish Amazon would have an adult switch. And that the authors would use it as they are supposed too.
I am also sorry your books got caught.
Now what I did say was write a clean erotic version (no incest) for amazon and sell your not so clean (incestuous) book at a site that wants it. You know call the guy Kyle in one book and Daddy in the other.


----------



## JShepard

swolf said:


> If a book is classified as erotica by the author, it would be hidden. If Amazon discovers authors classifying erotica in other categories, then ban the book. Authors will quickly get the message.


But to the original post I was responding to mentions this as well, a lot of books have more sex than some erotica. And if the argument is that 'if it is written to titillate it is erotica' then a huge swath of romance would be behind the filter too. Point is, the line is hard - if not impossible- to define between romance, erotica, and porn.

Thus the rub. My porn is not your porn and my grandma would out porn us all. (No offense, granny, I've seen your collection of H rapes h over and over and Stockholm sets in and they live happily ever after.)


----------



## JKenney

X. Aratare said:


> Don't assume because you don't write "those books" that your material is okay for kids, because romance writers, horror writers, action-adventure writers ... I'm sorry but your books aren't for kids either. You ARE NOT writing for children and quite frankly you shouldn't be getting any more of a pass than any other book that's not for kids.


I could not agree more. I don't write Erotica but I have thought about it a time or two. MY books are sci-fi/fantasy romance which would be deemed sweet, no graphic sex, etc.... But they STILL should not be read by kids...one they are violent, two they are disturbing some border on Gothic, and three they aren't kids books...

Now when I was 13, before the age of Amazon, and e-books, and porn avengers...I had a very HIGH reading level and had long since been bored by children's books.

I read...Frank Herbert's Heretics of Dune...with blatant pedophilia...and some Vampire novel with rape and incest which I can't remember the title of, and at least one Sci-fi novel with drugs, rape, etc...

None of these were exactly appropriate for a 13 year old. But they didn't harm me, and frankly my mom didn't censor my reading because she couldn't keep up with me.

I agree with people just talking to their children, monitoring them, and not using the internet as a babysitter. These people screaming and shouting about "the children" aren't actually representing "the children". They just disapprove on a moral level and use "the children" as an excuse.

But simple answer create a button either an adult or a child only button that limits what people see, and let the "adults" decide what the minors can see. Then the retailers can just sit back and say...yeah you can block that if you want...


----------



## cinisajoy

X. Aratare said:


> He raped her on the rooftop and there were chapters and chapters about his lust for her. She and her brother end up getting married. Yeah .. you might have forgotten that. She also has sex in the bath with a man that takes them in (he's older, a doctor, and tells her to cum, I don't think she's 18 yet either). She also has sex with her stepfather. In short, this book should be NO WHERE near kids regardless if you think that children being abused by their mother, grandparents, et al. is somehow okay for kids, but the "sex" part of it somehow would make it not so.
> 
> I want to make clear that I don't think kids should be sheltered from this stuff. I think it has to be an individual parent's decision what their kids are ready for. But as to your belief that Flowers in the Attic is somehow kid-friendly ... well, I'd re-think that.
> 
> Oh, and one more thing, the books that the author's estate commissioned to be written by other authors, do you know what the MAIN THRUST in each book is? Incest ... yeah, so if Flowers' power wasn't about incest why on earth would it be in the focus of those other books?


I had forgotten about that. I think I was more horrified by the abuse at the hands of the grandmother than anything that happened between the kids. Keep in mind it has been 35 years since I read it.


----------



## swolf

cinisajoy said:


> Never mind.
> And yes I have read the TOS.


If you did, then you would know it is so vague that what violates the TOS is whatever Amazon decides violates the TOS.



cinisajoy said:


> *I never said it should not be read. Only that Amazon does not have to sell it.*
> Thank you for misunderstanding me.


But Amazon obviously does want to sell it. And readers want to buy it.



cinisajoy said:


> *I like my erotica as much as the next person but I do not want to give those that don't like any reason to take it away from me.*


So you want to keep the erotica that you like to read, but wish that Amazon didn't sell the kind you dislike.



cinisajoy said:


> I am also sorry your books got caught.
> Now what I did say was write a clean erotic version (no incest) for amazon and sell your not so clean (incestuous) book at a site that wants it. You know call the guy Kyle in one book and Daddy in the other.


I already give that option to my readers with two different versions of most of my books. The step-incest versions outsell the 'clean' versions by a wide margin.


----------



## X. Aratare

JShepard said:


> But to the original post I was responding to mentions this as well, a lot of books have more sex than some erotica. And if the argument is that 'if it is written to titillate it is erotica' then a huge swath of romance would be behind the filter too. Point is, the line is hard - if not impossible- to define between romance, erotica, and porn.
> 
> Thus the rub. My porn is not your porn and my grandma would out porn us all. (No offense, granny, I've seen your collection of H rapes h over and over and Stockholm sets in and they live happily ever after.)


Again, you take the words from my mouth. There is NO HARD LINE. It is subjective and what has been "main-streamed", but again not what is necessarily any more appropriate for children than what is not mainstreamed. The kids only store is the "best" solution out of a lot of bad options. Though why Amazon can't segregate Daddy books for kids and Daddy books for adults is beyond me. For goodness sake again no erotica writer wants this showing up where kids are browsing. Kids aren't going to buy it! Sigh. Now I must go write as I have a chapter due tonight. I wonder if I'll be like Russell and keep coming back for more.


----------



## X. Aratare

cinisajoy said:


> I had forgotten about that. I think I was more horrified by the abuse at the hands of the grandmother than anything that happened between the kids. Keep in mind it has been 35 years since I read it.


I totally hear you. I picked them up again b/c I was turning my paperback library into an electronic one and re-read them so that's why they are fresh in my mind and that is why I am livid (not at you) at the hypocrisy about this. I feel like if this book which is honestly beloved by a lot of people and held up for thirty years is allowed to be uncensored why can't I (or anyone) write something similar and be given the same latitude? That's why this current banning is a slippery slope in all truth.


----------



## swolf

JShepard said:


> But to the original post I was responding to mentions this as well, a lot of books have more sex than some erotica. And if the argument is that 'if it is written to titillate it is erotica' then a huge swath of romance would be behind the filter too. Point is, the line is hard - if not impossible- to define between romance, erotica, and porn.
> 
> Thus the rub. My porn is not your porn and my grandma would out porn us all. (No offense, granny, I've seen your collection of H rapes h over and over and Stockholm sets in and they live happily ever after.)


For the most part, romance titles showing up in search results isn't going to bother anyone, even if there is sex buried within the pages. And, unlike erotica, most of the romance titles aren't going to offend customers.


----------



## JShepard

X. Aratare said:


> Again, you take the words from my mouth. There is NO HARD LINE. It is subjective and what has been "main-streamed", but again not what is necessarily any more appropriate for children than what is not mainstreamed. The kids only store is the "best" solution out of a lot of bad options. Though why Amazon can't segregate Daddy books for kids and Daddy books for adults is beyond me. For goodness sake again no erotica writer wants this showing up where kids are browsing. Kids aren't going to buy it! Sigh. Now I must go write as I have a chapter due tonight. I wonder if I'll be like Russell and keep coming back for more.


The problem is that it comes down to a matter of taste. Since everyone has their own kink, (yes, _everyone_) there really isn't a way to make everyone happy. But if the argument is about *keeping kids safe* the kid filter is the best (it would seem) option. I don't get offended when YA books I would never read (and quite frankly skeeve me out) pop up. Would I request a filter? Nope. Because YA is popular and I'm one of many. This world isn't going to go out of its way to please me and expecting it to seems rather egomaniacal.

But that is my opinion.


----------



## swolf

JKenney said:


> I could not agree more. I don't write Erotica but I have thought about it a time or two. MY books are sci-fi/fantasy romance which would be deemed sweet, no graphic sex, etc.... But they STILL should not be read by kids...one they are violent, two they are disturbing some border on Gothic, and three they aren't kids books...


I don't think the issue here is about kids reading these books. They're going to need a credit card to do that anyway.

I think it's more about what's appearing in search results. That's definitely the main thrust of the latest crackdown - the titles and how the books look, not what's inside them.


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> If you did, then you would know it is so vague that what violates the TOS is whatever Amazon decides violates the TOS.
> 
> But Amazon obviously does want to sell it. And readers want to buy it.
> 
> So you want to keep the erotica that you like to read, but wish that Amazon didn't sell the kind you dislike.
> 
> I already give that option to my readers with two different versions of most of my books. The step-incest versions outsell the 'clean' versions by a wide margin.


You misunderstood me again. *I do not want the ones that don't like erotica to take any of it away from me.* I do not want any taken away. And how do you know what kind of erotica I like? 
Reminds me I need to read Amulet.

Now I am intriqued that your step-incest sells better than clean versions. That is interesting.


----------



## JShepard

swolf said:


> For the most part, romance titles showing up in search results isn't going to bother anyone, even if there is sex buried within the pages. And, unlike erotica, most of the romance titles aren't going to offend customers.


People will go out of their way to be offended by things. That's the way we are. If all the erotica on amazon were to vanish (not a plug) overnight, people would find something else to be offended by, be it chocolate dildos or oodles of sex in a 'sweet' romance.

Again, it's my opinion. Perhaps your right, but I have a hard time believing it. Considering Disney movies - those lovely G-rated films made just for kids- are often accused of containing subliminal messages about sex. I don't see a phallic image on the cover of Arial. Sorry. But someone did.

Edited for those da*n typos.


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> I don't think the issue here is about kids reading these books. They're going to need a credit card to do that anyway.
> 
> I think it's more about what's appearing in search results. That's definitely the main thrust of the latest crackdown - the titles and how the books look, not what's inside them.


If they have one click buying then there is already a credit or gift card on the account. So yes a kid could buy any e-book they wanted.


----------



## JKenney

swolf said:


> For the most part, romance titles showing up in search results isn't going to bother anyone, even if there is sex buried within the pages. And, unlike erotica, most of the romance titles aren't going to offend customers.


So maybe the concept that Amazon really just wants the Erotic content behind the "cover" is the truth....

They don't object to sex content, they just don't want the anti-erotica psychos to get fodder for their anti-porn campaign...

Sad if this is true. Wouldn't we rather have these types of kink related books be honest upfront and tell you what they are?

Again Amazon actually filters the HECK out of these things already, but because if you look for them you can find them that must be bad? Ugh...we need a button. Then they can't claim that they found them "by mistake"...when they went out of their way turned off the filters and sought them out.

Yeah I have talked to these people. They really do this, and they are proud of it...


----------



## swolf

cinisajoy said:


> You misunderstood me again. *I do not want the ones that don't like erotica to take any of it away from me.* I do not want any taken away.


You seem to be advocating that step-incest shouldn't be sold by Amazon.



cinisajoy said:


> Now I am intriqued that your step-incest sells better than clean versions. That is interesting.


As a rule, the kink sells better than the vanilla, regardless of the topic.


----------



## X. Aratare

JKenney said:


> I could not agree more. I don't write Erotica but I have thought about it a time or two. MY books are sci-fi/fantasy romance which would be deemed sweet, no graphic sex, etc.... But they STILL should not be read by kids...one they are violent, two they are disturbing some border on Gothic, and three they aren't kids books...
> 
> Now when I was 13, before the age of Amazon, and e-books, and porn avengers...I had a very HIGH reading level and had long since been bored by children's books.
> 
> I read...Frank Herbert's Heretics of Dune...with blatant pedophilia...and some Vampire novel with rape and incest which I can't remember the title of, and at least one Sci-fi novel with drugs, rape, etc...
> 
> None of these were exactly appropriate for a 13 year old. But they didn't harm me, and frankly my mom didn't censor my reading because she couldn't keep up with me.
> 
> I agree with people just talking to their children, monitoring them, and not using the internet as a babysitter. These people screaming and shouting about "the children" aren't actually representing "the children". They just disapprove on a moral level and use "the children" as an excuse.
> 
> But simple answer create a button either an adult or a child only button that limits what people see, and let the "adults" decide what the minors can see. Then the retailers can just sit back and say...yeah you can block that if you want...


Again, so many people writing what I wish I had (and YES I SAID I WAS LEAVING, BUT I CAN'T). This is exactly what I'm talking about. I read the Dune books, too by the time I was 12 at the latest. I could read at a very high level like you could and I didn't like kids' books so I went into my brother's library (he was about 10 years older than me) and read every fantasy/sci-fi/etc. book I could get my hands on. I was fascinated, horrified, titillated, etc. by it all. But it honestly allowed me to understand life better b/c it wasn't some sanitized goody goody land that quite frankly doesn't exist. It actually taught me a bit about tolerance. Adult books that teach good lessons! Shocking, I know! But true.

If parents think their job is to protect their kids from all adult content they have an impossible task ahead of them (and again, the world is not just for kids so you can't expect things to be sanitized for them). Matter of fact, they have likely already failed the moment their kids can access the TV, internet, library, talk to other kids, etc. Parents - you just need to give your kids your values and hope that they stick when the kids find themselves in a spot where judgment is required. That's all you can do. Full stop.

I really think that material is getting out of where it should be (i.e., I'm searching for a Halloween costume and not vampire-werewolves-incesty etc.) is Amazon's fault. I imagine that the erotica writer that puts Daddy in as a search term wants people interested in Daddy type books to find it, not to offend people looking for whatever else the Daddy search term should bring up that's not erotic! There's got to be some sense to Amazon's search terms and Amazon should be able to fix this issue.


----------



## cinisajoy

JShepard said:


> People will go out of their way to be offended by things. That's the way we are. If all the erotica on amazon were to vanish (not a plug) overnight, people would find something else to be offended by, be it chocolate dildos or oodles of sex in a 'sweet' romance.
> 
> Again, it's my opinion. Perhaps your right, but I have a hard time believing it. Considering Disney movies - those lovely G-rated films made just for kids- are often accused of containing subliminal messages about sex. I don't see a phallic image on the cover of Arial. Sorry. But someone did.
> 
> Edited for those da*n typos.


You have to get an original ''Little Mermaid" and then only if you have a more warped mind than mine or would that be a less warped mind. I also think a chocolate dildo would not last long and oh what a mess.

I do hope all of you are re-instated soon.


----------



## swolf

JShepard said:


> People will go out of their way to be offended by things. That's the way we are. If all the erotica on amazon were to vanish (not a plug) overnight, people would find something else to be offended by, be it chocolate dildos or oodles of sex in a 'sweet' romance.


That's true, but most businesses don't cater to those people on the fringe. Most normal people know what erotica looks like.



JShepard said:


> Again, it's my opinion. Perhaps your right, but I have a hard time believing it. Considering Disney movies - those lovely G-rated films made just for kids- are often accused of containing subliminal messages about sex. I don't see a phallic image on the cover of Arial. Sorry. But someone did.
> 
> Edited for those da*n typos.


Yes, people make those accusations and Disney ignores them. They don't go out of their way to appease them.


----------



## swolf

cinisajoy said:


> If they have one click buying then there is already a credit or gift card on the account. So yes a kid could buy any e-book they wanted.


If the parents are giving their kids one-click buying, then they're the ones who are responsible for what the kids buy.


----------



## MarilynVix

JKenney said:


> So maybe the concept that Amazon really just wants the Erotic content behind the "cover" is the truth....
> 
> They don't object to sex content, they just don't want the anti-erotica psychos to get fodder for their anti-porn campaign...
> 
> Sad if this is true. Wouldn't we rather have these types of kink related books be honest upfront and tell you what they are?
> 
> Again Amazon actually filters the HECK out of these things already, but because if you look for them you can find them that must be bad? Ugh...we need a button. Then they can't claim that they found them "by mistake"...when they went out of their way turned off the filters and sought them out.
> 
> Yeah I have talked to these people. They really do this, and they are proud of it...


Having a button for 18 and over books isn't a large stretch of the mind. I mean, kids don't buy books unless they are teenagers. I was reading Clan of the Cave Bear when I was 13. Did my parents know what was in it? No. Should they? Well, I was over 13, and knew what sex is. Most teens do by then, and can probably get around filters. It's the younger 8-12 year olds that need to be protected.
And they aren't looking for the books. Their parents are. Most likely, they are the ones that have seen them.

Seriously, with a filter, you could put in what you want as a search, and whether you wanted to see 18 and over books. Users can be set to only look at books listed as not 18 and over. It's such a simple solution. But I think the freak out show is selling papers, news, etc. Hopefully a real solution will come out of this. In the end, if the erotica is separated, it may sell better because the people who read them will find them easier. Besides, having an author select 18 or over would help. But who decides if it is 18 and over material? The author? Amazon? The newspapers?


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> You seem to be advocating that step-incest shouldn't be sold by Amazon.
> 
> As a rule, the kink sells better than the vanilla, regardless of the topic.


I did not mean it that way. I just meant that if Zon doesn't want it, then give them what they want and still make money. Then your kink readers could also find you elsewhere and get twice the reads. I was thinking of your exposure and more is better right.
I thought kink was just more fun.


----------



## Gone To Croatan

MarilynVix said:


> Seriously, with a filter, you could put in what you want as a search, and whether you wanted to see 18 and over books.


What's an '18 and over' book?


----------



## JShepard

swolf said:


> Yes, people make those accusations and Disney ignores them. They don't go out of their way to appease them.


I'm pretty sure that cover (and others) were redone after all the uproar. Doesn't that count as going out of their way to appease the masses?

And isn't that what amazon is doing right now? This thread makes it sound like authors are being told to fix their covers and blurbs, while content is ignored. Sounds exactly the same, actually.

Typo. Again. /sigh


----------



## Gone To Croatan

justsomewriterwhowrites said:


> I agree. A few bits of code, and anything with a keyword/category set of daddy + erotica, or daddy + sex, etcetera, could show up only if someone actually typed both words and not just one of them.


Then the erotica farms would be doing everything possible to keep their books out of the erotica category.

Anything that requires adults to specifically choose to search for erotica fails, because it will encourage the less reputable to do whatever they can to not get flagged. An opt-out on erotica would probably be OK, since only those who can't handle it would opt out, and they're unlikely to buy the books so there's little incentive in try to get around it.


----------



## swolf

JKenney said:


> So maybe the concept that Amazon really just wants the Erotic content behind the "cover" is the truth....
> 
> They don't object to sex content, they just don't want the anti-erotica psychos to get fodder for their anti-porn campaign...
> 
> Sad if this is true. Wouldn't we rather have these types of kink related books be honest upfront and tell you what they are?


There's no doubt that it's true. When I ask for explanations for why they want something changed, all I get back are virtual blank stares and instructions to 'read the guidelines.' All of the changes are cosmetic - Title, description, and cover. I can write about step-daddies and step-mommies and step-daughters and step-sons all I want, but I can't describe what the book is actually about, nor put a title on it that gives the readers a clue what it's about.



JKenney said:


> Again Amazon actually filters the HECK out of these things already, but because if you look for them you can find them that must be bad? Ugh...we need a button. Then they can't claim that they found them "by mistake"...when they went out of their way turned off the filters and sought them out.
> 
> Yeah I have talked to these people. They really do this, and they are proud of it...


Lots of people concerned what others are doing in privacy.


----------



## MarilynVix

Edward M. Grant said:


> What's an '18 and over' book?


Good question. I've been seeing a lot of erotica and websites listing 18 and over book sections.


----------



## swolf

JShepard said:


> I'm pretty sure that cover (and others) were redone after all the uproar. Doesn't that count as going out of their way to appease the masses?
> 
> And isn't that what amazon is doing right now? This thread makes it sound like authors are being told to fix their covers and blurbs, while content is ignored. Sounds exactly the same, actually.
> 
> Typo. Again. /sigh


The difference was this wasn't some lone guy seeing Mufasa with a boner. This was major news outlets accusing Amazon (wrongly) of selling books with rape, incest, and bestiality.


----------



## cinisajoy

JShepard said:


> I'm pretty sure that cover (and others) were redone after all the uproar. Doesn't that count as going out of their way to appease the masses?
> 
> And isn't that what amazon is doing right now? This thread makes it sound like authors are being told to fix their covers and blurbs, while content is ignored. Sounds exactly the same, actually.
> 
> Typo. Again. /sigh


Yes, Disney changed that cover. Just looked and that cover would be a stretch of the imagination to see a phallic on the original cover.

Now guess we will just have to use the look inside feature to find what we want on the erotica.


----------



## swolf

Edward M. Grant said:


> What's an '18 and over' book?


Concerning the topic of this thread, I would say any book in the erotica category.


----------



## swolf

Edward M. Grant said:


> Then the erotica farms would be doing everything possible to keep their books out of the erotica category.
> 
> Anything that requires adults to specifically choose to search for erotica fails, because it will encourage the less reputable to do whatever they can to not get flagged. An opt-out on erotica would probably be OK, since only those who can't handle it would opt out, and they're unlikely to buy the books so there's little incentive in try to get around it.


Not sure what an erotica farm is, but I disagree. I want my books in an erotica category that adults can opt into. I don't want my more 'in your face' books appearing in front of anyone who doesn't want to see them.

People who are looking for erotica will go out of their way to find it. Turning on a switch won't be any kind of impediment to them.


----------



## JShepard

swolf said:


> The difference was this wasn't some lone guy seeing Mufasa with a boner. This was major news outlets accusing Amazon (wrongly) of selling books with rape, incest, and bestiality.


And it's really terrible that it happened, especially since they were wrong and innocent people's livelihoods are at stake. But it really does prove that people will find something to complain about... even if they have to fabricate it.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

Does Amazon have any obligations to independent authors? What? Why?


----------



## Gone To Croatan

swolf said:


> Not sure what an erotica farm is, but I disagree.


Some of the main complaints on this topic around the web have been about people who farm out erotica writing en masse to the cheapest writers they can find around the world, then upload it while trying to avoid being classed as erotica, so those readers who have no interest still find it in their searches. They don't care who that offends, or which other writers are inconvenienced as a result.



> I want my books in an erotica category that adults can opt into. I don't want my more 'in your face' books appearing in front of anyone who doesn't want to see them.


Doesn't matter, because you're not the one causing the problem. So long as the disreputable have a vested interest in not being flagged as erotica, their books will keep coming up in other peoples' searches.



> People who are looking for erotica will go out of their way to find it. Turning on a switch won't be any kind of impediment to them.


How many people who bought '50 Shades of Grey' would have turned on an erotica switch?


----------



## X. Aratare

Terrence OBrien said:


> Does Amazon have any obligations to independent authors? What? Why?


I have to admit that I sometimes think your questions are a little odd because they don't really address the issue, but bring up something that is not the issue just to play Devil's Advocate or something.

The issue is simply this: "saving the children", which is ostensibly the reason for all the banning of erotica on Amazon/Kobo/et al, actually does not save the children at all, because it only bans part of the not safe for children content. If they were really interested in "saving the children" and were not hypocritical about it then practically all the romance (trad and indie) would be banned, too, not to mention Stephen King, all other horror writers, etc., action adventure, etc.

Does Amazon have a duty to indie writers? No! But do we have to sit back and accept the nonsensical reasons it is giving as why its banning material as the God's honest truth? No! It's hypocrisy and it should be discussed. That's what this thread is about. No one is saying that Amazon must carry any particular product. But what they are saying is that IF they are going to carry 50 Shades then its pretty damned hypocritical that they won't carry 51 Shades.


----------



## swolf

Edward M. Grant said:


> Some of the main complaints on this topic around the web have been about people who farm out erotica writing en masse to the cheapest writers they can find around the world, then upload it while trying to avoid being classed as erotica, so those readers who have no interest still find it in their searches. They don't care who that offends, or which other writers are inconvenienced as a result.
> 
> Doesn't matter, because you're not the one causing the problem. So long as the disreputable have a vested interest in not being flagged as erotica, their books will keep coming up in other peoples' searches.


Sounds like a great way to weed them out. Start banning writers who don't put their erotica in the erotica category.



Edward M. Grant said:


> How many people who bought '50 Shades of Grey' would have turned on an erotica switch?


The vast majority. They'd ask their friends, "Hey, I can't find 50 Shades on Amazon," and their friends would tell them they have to turn on the erotica switch, and they would.


----------



## cinisajoy

swolf said:


> Not sure what an erotica farm is, but I disagree. I want my books in an erotica category that adults can opt into. I don't want my more 'in your face' books appearing in front of anyone who doesn't want to see them.
> 
> People who are looking for erotica will go out of their way to find it. Turning on a switch won't be any kind of impediment to them.


I like having the switch on most sites. When my granddaughter would use my computer, you can bet your bottom dollar that safe search was on. She was in a princess phase. Cinderella images without safe search on can give you an eyeful. It is easy enough to turn on and off adult filters.
Oh and if a kid wants to read on my kindle, they can use my tablet with the wi-fi off so they can only see the books I want them to see. The archives will only show with the wi-fi on.

Oh and I love your avatar.


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Here's a novel idea: how about the parents do some parenting instead of blaming books, TV, movies, and video games?


----------



## DarkScribe

X. Aratare said:


> That's your preference, but guess what, we're all inconvenienced from time to time. We deal with it as adults. And we move on. It is no one's duty to sanitize the world to your individual tastes.


Wanna bet?


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> I have to admit that I sometimes think your questions are a little odd because they don't really address the issue, but bring up something that is not the issue just to play Devil's Advocate or something.


I have to admit Im odd, too.



> The issue is simply this: "saving the children", which is ostensibly the reason for all the banning of erotica on Amazon/Kobo/et al, actually does not save the children at all, because it only bans part of the not safe for children content. If they were really interested in "saving the children" and were not hypocritical about it then practically all the romance (trad and indie) would be banned, too, not to mention Stephen King, all other horror writers, etc., action adventure, etc.


Well, that means they are not interested in saving children, and are hypocritical. OK.



> Does Amazon have a duty to indie writers? No! But do we have to sit back and accept the nonsensical reasons it is giving as why its banning material as the God's honest truth? No! It's hypocrisy and it should be discussed. That's what this thread is about. No one is saying that Amazon must carry any particular product. But what they are saying is that IF they are going to carry 50 Shades then its pretty damned hypocritical that they won't carry 51 Shades.


Its that free speech thing again. It lets us all be hypocrites. Aint this a great country?


----------



## JKenney

MarilynVix said:


> But who decides if it is 18 and over material? The author? Amazon? The newspapers?


If they actually give decent rules then Amazon could do this...simple enough.... profanity, violence, gore, sex, etc...click the button.

And given the chance to have things limited to adult buyers, I think most authors and publishers would be thrilled to click it!

They don't want kids reading this stuff any more than we do...


----------



## JKenney

Edward M. Grant said:


> Doesn't matter, because you're not the one causing the problem. So long as the disreputable have a vested interest in not being flagged as erotica, their books will keep coming up in other peoples' searches. How many people who bought '50 Shades of Grey' would have turned on an erotica switch?


Then FIGHT THOSE PEOPLE. I.E. have a zero tolerance for erotica flagged as anything else...end of discussion...I think real honest erotica authors want it to be tagged as erotica because that is where their audience shops!
And yes if they wanted 50 shades they would turn off the filter...

AND the truly disreputable won't suffer from this ban they will spam, rewrite, and disguise their content so that people buy it no matter what that takes. But they are easily identified and banned. Yes they will be back in other forms, but they will be damaged by this. Maybe after enough press they take off.

The problem is that by mixing them in with the true ethical erotica suppliers they just get "lost in the crowd" and nothing happens to the true villeins...if they even exist...

There is a little voice in my head that says these are actually anti-porn people trying to justify their cause....


----------



## MarilynVix

JKenney said:


> If they actually give decent rules than Amazon could do this...simple enough.... profanity, violence, gore, sex, etc...click the button.
> 
> And given the chance to not have things limited to adult buyers, I think most authors and publishers would be thrilled to click it!


Parents and grandparents buy children's books. In reality, it looks like it is marketed to kids, but really adults buy them. Teens can buy their own books or check them out of the library. Responsible authors and parents would use an adult filter. There is already one for television, like on Netflix. Man, it's hard to get that thing off when you get stuck in it.

There will always be people who will get around the filter. But, legally, it will say "we did something". So if Amazon had one, they could say the author went around it. I have a feeling it will fall to the author to gauge whether their book is 18 or over, but really, what a great way to make sure it gets into the right hands. You're not going to sell a book to an 8 year old. They don't buy them. Anybody that leaves their electronics open for their toddlers and kids to one click buy most likely tell the stories of the bill they got for apps, etc. Really, I think it's high time it's needed.

In the end, parents might thank the distributors for the opportunity to filter for their kids.  There might be a positive at the end of all this. Don't know why the big minds at Kobo or WHSmith aren't trying this. However, I think Amazon is innovative enough they might be already be out this solution. Or they should. They might troll the board and find the ideas. *waves at Amazon Rep.*


----------



## cinisajoy

MarilynVix said:


> Parents and grandparents buy children's books. In reality, it looks like it is marketed to kids, but really adults buy them. Teens can buy their own books or check them out of the library. Responsible authors and parents would use an adult filter. There is already one for television, like on Netflix. Man, it's hard to get that thing off when you get stuck in it.
> 
> There will always be people who will get around the filter. But, legally, it will say "we did something". So if Amazon had one, they could say the author went around it. I have a feeling it will fall to the author to gauge whether their book is 18 or over, but really, what a great way to make sure it gets into the right hands. You're not going to sell a book to an 8 year old. They don't buy them. Anybody that leaves their electronics open for their toddlers and kids to one click buy most likely tell the stories of the bill they got for apps, etc. Really, I think it's high time it's needed.
> 
> In the end, parents might thank the distributors for the opportunity to filter for their kids.  There might be a positive at the end of all this. Don't know why the big minds at Kobo or WHSmith aren't trying this. However, I think Amazon is innovative enough they might be already be out this solution. Or they should. They might troll the board and find the ideas. *waves at Amazon Rep.*


Dish Network has parental controls. Nearly everyone does anymore. It cannot be that hard to put in a button.


----------



## Willo

X. Aratare said:


> I read Flowers in the Attic too when I was 12. I think it's like a rite of passage or something


It totally is.



X. Aratare said:


> For those who honestly believe that their kids (a) don't know about pron; (b) haven't seen it; (c) have been shocked by what they find on the internet; and/or (d) can truly be sheltered from "inappropriate material" when all those kids need to do is turn on the TV and watch Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars, etc. (btw look this stuff up if you don't know it b/c in PLL we have an underage girl getting it on with her highschool teacher, etc. and its on PRIME TIME and aimed at TEENAGERS and PRETEENS, oh yeah, baby, its for the kids!) I say to them: you are living in a dream world and you need to wake up. You need to teach your kids good critical thinking skills so that when they encounter things like pron they can assimilate it properly (or whatever you think is proper) and go on to lead happy, productive lives.
> 
> Unless indies stick together, especially sticking up for those who write "fringe" material (and how fringe is it when these erotica writers/romance writers/horror writers are bringing in tons of cold hard cash?), we're all sunk. Because your "spicy" romance may be next on the chopping block or, if you're Kobo, it already is.


Yep.



JShepard said:


> Why not just use the Netflix way of things? Have a button just for kids. In the kid's section nothing but kid's stuff. As an adult, I don't want to be punished because (gasp) kids use the internet too. There are fewer kid's books than everything else.


A kid filter could work, too, and it might be more along the lines of what Amazon would want for their image.



JShepard said:


> And for the people who say "ERMEHGERD! KIDZ WILL FIND ADULZ STUFF!" Well, kids are going to learn about it sooner or later. If not from books, the internet, Game of Thrones, True Blood, ect. then they'll learn about it from their friends or, better yet, members of the opposite sex who know as much as they do or learned from watching revenge porn. Talk to your kids. Sex isn't dirty, disgusting, or gross. Teach kids about it. Studies show that children well educated about sex make better decisions regarding it.
> 
> However, the drawback is that - wait for it - people will have to talk to their kids about a subject that's uncomfortable. And I understand that, but my point is that I doubt all the kiddies amazon is trying to protect only see naughty stuff when they go to amazon for books. I see sex ads when I log into facebook. I doubt I'm the only one.


The first "acceptably pornographic" material I was ever exposed to came from mainstream literature. The library will not deny sex-filled romance books to a girl with a library card. I'd already been educated at home about sex/respecting my body/bad touch, etc. The talk (which happened well before puberty) made a difference in how everything after it affected me. Sex definitely isn't disgusting (none of us would be here without it), but this society prefers to fear it rather than frame it correctly. It's quietly accepted if it's 'hidden' in romance, thrillers, and etc. so long as it's not overt, or if it is, it's a mainstream "classic" (underage age mainstream media, included... ahem, "Tampa"/"Lolita"). Media violence is openly okay, though.


----------



## justagirl

cinisajoy said:


> If I was Amazon, the first thing I would target would be those authors that did not put their erotic stuff in the erotic category. Then so those authors cannot scream about other mis-doers, I would look for the incest (real and pseudo), dubcon and other things that have been determined illegal or obscene. If amazon only wants clean erotica, give them clean erotica. I mean really does it have to be a relative? Make a clean version for Amazon and put the relationship at other locations.


Yes, it has to be a relative! Lol, that's the point. (And for various other kinks - BDSM, petplay, etc. etc., whatever their storyline centered around would be the point, too.)

You also have the situation where people aren't just writing quick one offs. It might be fairly easy to make a clean version of a 3k word story, but what about 36k? 100k? And with them not only censoring erotica, but also erotic romance and romance...

I tried to explain this to someone the other day, but I don't know if my words made sense - maybe someone else can chime in if it's similar for them. I read erotically charged material as well as writing it. I actively seek out tabooed stories (with various "kinks") - and usually it's not just for quick titillation value. I've read many, many stories that have spoken to what humanity's about. The human psyche. Emotional responses. Tenderness and tragedy. The kink gives the author an in - and obviously, people like it because kink outsells vanilla - to weave a story that's different. Because of the kink, but because of how people react to that kink. (I'm kind of half asleep here so I realize I'm getting rambly...)



justsomewriterwhowrites said:


> I can see that. I know tons of people who gobble up the Wincest. I try to keep up with what the fans in the largest fandoms are putting out because it's being written by readers/fans as much as anything often for the sole purpose of satisfying readers who want what the mainstream isn't giving them enough of.


Yes! Yes to Wincest (though for me and for probably most shippers it's not about the incest there as those characters) but also yes to fandom. I turned to fandom because I couldn't find what I was looking for in the mainstream presses. I started reading original fiction again because self pubbers could give me (some of) that through Amazon. If they purge most of the "good stuff" - the borderline, the edgy, the things that make you see in shades of gray instead of black and white (ex - Wincest is cool for the kink, but delving into those character's motivations and why they want each other and work together is what gives the staying power, at least for me), the trendy... well what's the point of buying the original stuff? I can read AUs by equally talented authors that are basically original works with familiar names and faces.

I read dubcon and kidnapping and BDSM and teacher/student and incest/PI and shifter books and age differences and omega!verses BECAUSE of the power imbalance, of the shades of gray - and most of it isn't obscene or illegal in real life.

I think I may have gone way off topic. *headdesk* Literally. I'm tired.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

cinisajoy said:


> Dish Network has parental controls. Nearly everyone does anymore. It cannot be that hard to put in a button.


It is very easy to put in a button. But it is very difficult to ensure that a million books have accurate and reliable flags that power the button.


----------



## Willo

swolf said:


> That's ridiculous. If that's true, then murder mysteries promote murders, and books about serial killers promote serial killing, books about drug abuse promote drug use, and books about terrorists promote terrorism. Studies have shown that people interested in reading about incest are not interested in having sex with members of their family.
> -
> Sounds like a great way to weed them out. Start banning writers who don't put their erotica in the erotica category.





swolf said:


> The vast majority. They'd ask their friends, "Hey, I can't find 50 Shades on Amazon," and their friends would tell them they have to turn on the erotica switch, and they would.


#Yes and yes.



cinisajoy said:


> Dish Network has parental controls. Nearly everyone does anymore. It cannot be that hard to put in a button.


I mean, seriously, why haven't they done this yet? Their errant "adult filter" attempts are several years old, no? Aren't they willing to learn from the failure of that methodology, now? Didn't Selena Kitt stand up for erotica a few years back? Why is it so difficult to insert a button that will likely solve 99.9 percent of the problem?


----------



## Sarma

I keep seeing people say that 50 shades would be banned/not published today. I disagree based on what I've seen. Dominated by the kinky billionaire books, including self published works, are still plentiful but they all have a pretty tame cover/title/blurb.

Has anyone here had a full length novel with light BDSM themes and a clean cover/title/blurb banned? 

It seems like people will often complain about Amazon not publishing/not categorizing in Romance one of their books and citing 50 shades as a comparison, but then it turns out that their book is titled something along the lines of "Tied Up and Used at Rich Dude's Bachelor Party" and the cover has full on nudity.

I'm honestly curious if something as tame/romantic as 50 shades has been targeted. I wake up every morning and start to panic because I'm almost done with a 100k+ book that *might* be a little more steamy than 50 shades. I've decided to delay the release because I'm pretty sure that they'll throw it in erotica because I have 70 or so erotica titles. That would really tick me off because the book is a romance novel. If it's going to get brown bagged anyway, I should have just written it as erotica, because I could have made it much, much hotter and far less angsty and emotional.


----------



## cinisajoy

I have to admit that I have not read 50 Shades.  I sampled it and went typical fake BDSM.  No thanks.  I also prefer my erotica a bit cheaper.


----------



## Sarma

ProserpinaPress said:


> I tried to explain this to someone the other day, but I don't know if my words made sense - maybe someone else can chime in if it's similar for them. I read erotically charged material as well as writing it. I actively seek out tabooed stories (with various "kinks") - and usually it's not just for quick titillation value. I've read many, many stories that have spoken to what humanity's about. The human psyche. Emotional responses. Tenderness and tragedy. The kink gives the author an in - and obviously, people like it because kink outsells vanilla - to weave a story that's different. Because of the kink, but because of how people react to that kink. (I'm kind of half asleep here so I realize I'm getting rambly...)


Exactly. This is why the censorship scares me, even though I understand that Amazon is a private company and has the right to publish what they want. They are also the way for self published authors to reach the largest audience. I don't want limits on my artistic expression and explorations of the darker side of human behavior because someone might find it titillating.



cinisajoy said:


> I have to admit that I have not read 50 Shades. I sampled it and went typical fake BDSM. No thanks. I also prefer my erotica a bit cheaper.


I read it free, the library in my conservative small town carried it, and there was a waiting list! I agree, typical fake BDSM erotic romance, which is very popular, probably even more popular than real BDSM erotica.

I feel like I've missed a crucial post where an erotic romance like 50 shades/Crossfire series/etc. has been outright banned with a clean title/cover/blurb.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

> I don't want limits on my artistic expression and explorations of the darker side of human behavior because someone might find it titillating.


There are no limits. Who is limiting your artistic expression and exploration?


----------



## justagirl

Terrence OBrien said:


> There are no limits. Who is limiting your artistic expression and exploration?


I'll always be a writer and theoretically I can write whatever the heck I want to.... but many of us also have to earn a full or partial living by it. By not being able to sell what we produce, Amazon and other companies are limiting our artistic expressions and explorations.

There are several projects I'd like to work on but have put on the back burner because they won't sell very well - and frankly, we have bills. I need to sell. To have to put something on back burner that will sell, but we just -can't- sell - that's kind of a slap in the face.


----------



## daringnovelist

swolf said:


> That's ridiculous. If that's true, then murder mysteries promote murders, and books about serial killers promote serial killing, books about drug abuse promote drug use, and books about terrorists promote terrorism. Studies have shown that people interested in reading about incest are not interested in having sex with members of their family.


(Note: this response was to my post about why retailers are going after Pseudo-Incest and other "barely legal" genres. I mentioned -- as a part of a larger explanation -- that it's because of the justification for banning all child p*rn, even when it's just a fictional child depicted: even though no actual child was exploited, such stories -- when they are for the purpose of titillation -- are illegal because they "promote" child abuse.)

I'm not justifying this, I'm explaining it. I want to make that clear. Arguing with me won't help you. (And note, I am not a lawyer.)

My point here is not to take a stand on whether child p*rn should be banned at all. There are a lot of debates on that, but that's irrelevant to the issue here. It's a fact that certain things ARE illegal.

I was only pointing out that, given the purpose and justification of the law itself, then it applies to many (not all) pseudo-incest stories and the like.

And this is important, because the thing people are overlooking here is that this all goes back to the *phrasing of law and liability*.

There is no law that says you can't promote murder or taking drugs. (There are laws about hate crimes that might overlap into that, though.)

But even if there were; murder mysteries, and crime fiction and stories about victims of incest do not *promote* those things. So that's irrelevant to the point of why PI is being targeted.

So there are two different issues; one is whether there should be a ban on any kind of incest story (or bestiality story or rape story) and the other is how it applies to stories which have the same content and appeal to the same audience in the same way, but have some words changed to push it over the line into legality.

If your argument is against the law/ban itself, then go after the ban on all out incest. If the argument is that it's okay to ban incest, then before you can defend pseudo-incest, you have to look at the ban and its justifications before you can successfully do that.

Camille


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

swolf said:


> That's definitely the main thrust of the latest crackdown - the titles and how the books look, not what's inside them.


Sadly that is not the _only_ thrust of the crackdown. I currently have three titles: one I'm trying to get into print, another that's been selling for three months and one I've sold for over a year, and they are all BLOCKED due to interior content. One of them was selling rather well until Carlos F slammed it to the mat.

I fear the only way I will be able to get them published again will be to heavily censor them and take out the things that made them so popular. Amazon's hypocrisy disgusts me, and it should disturb anyone who writes erotica, for tomorrow they could decide that _your_ subgenre in beneath the pale,


----------



## Deena Ward

Sarma said:


> Has anyone here had a full length novel with light BDSM themes and a clean cover/title/blurb banned?
> 
> It seems like people will often complain about Amazon not publishing/not categorizing in Romance one of their books and citing 50 shades as a comparison, but then it turns out that their book is titled something along the lines of "Tied Up and Used at Rich Dude's Bachelor Party" and the cover has full on nudity.
> 
> I'm honestly curious if something as tame/romantic as 50 shades has been targeted. I wake up every morning and start to panic because I'm almost done with a 100k+ book that *might* be a little more steamy than 50 shades. I've decided to delay the release because I'm pretty sure that they'll throw it in erotica because I have 70 or so erotica titles.


My series, which consists of a novella and three full-length novels, has remained untouched at Amazon, Barnes & Noble and Smashwords. The first book has just been accepted at Apple iTunes Store. My books are far more explicit than FSOG (the first book of FSOG, anyway, which is all I've read) and the BDSM elements go well beyond "light," particularly in the second book. My blurbs give full and fair warning of explicit content including S&M and consensual D&S. You can judge the cleanliness of my covers and titles for yourself, since they are in my sig here.

I don't think you need to worry about your book if it is as you describe it, at least not at Amazon, at least not right now. Obviously I can't speak for the future. As for worries about Amazon putting it in the erotica category even though you want it in romance, I put my individual titles in erotica, though technically they are erotic romances. I put my collection in the erotic romance and romance collections/anthologies categories, and Amazon hasn't moved them.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring, though. I'm unsure about how explicit I'm going to go with my next series.


----------



## Terrence OBrien

ProserpinaPress said:


> I'll always be a writer and theoretically I can write whatever the heck I want to.... but many of us also have to earn a full or partial living by it. By not being able to sell what we produce, Amazon and other companies are limiting our artistic expressions and explorations.
> 
> There are several projects I'd like to work on but have put on the back burner because they won't sell very well - and frankly, we have bills. I need to sell. To have to put something on back burner that will sell, but we just -can't- sell - that's kind of a slap in the face.


Disagree. Amazon in no way limits an authors exploration or expression. What it is doing is refraining from having a commercial relationship with the author. Those are two very different things and the distinction is vital. This would be totally different if Amazon was actually stopping an author from exploring or expressing. It is not doing that.

Nobody is slapping an author because they dont choose to do business with the author. In an earlier post I asked if Amazon owes independent authors anything. The question was characterized as odd, but this is the reason I asked it.

Heres another question. Does Amazon owe an author anything it does not owe the widget maker? Does society owe the independent author anything it does not owe the widget maker? Do consumers owe the independent author anything? If I prefer become a full time author rather than a grain trader, does anyone have any obligation to facilitate my transition by doing business with me?


----------



## CrystalVeeyant

Terrence OBrien said:


> Disagree. Amazon in no way limits an authors exploration or expression. What it is doing is refraining from having a commercial relationship with the author.


Disingenuous much? When the number one seller of books refuses to carry an independent author who invests hundreds of hours into her work and thus makes it impossible for her to get a return on the investment of all of that effort, do you really think that author will continue to continue to explore and express? No, and thuis only the dilettantes who can afford to throw hours away on books that will never earn enough to make them worth the effort.

I'm curious why you are such a huge champion of Amazon's censorship. Are you a shareholder? More to the point, do you even write erotica? By that I mean books where the erotic content is the main focus. What is your dog in this fight?


----------



## Andrew Ashling

Willo said:


> #Yes and yes.
> 
> I mean, seriously, why haven't they done this yet? Their errant "adult filter" attempts are several years old, no? Aren't they willing to learn from the failure of that methodology, now? Didn't Selena Kitt stand up for erotica a few years back? Why is it so difficult to insert a button that will likely solve 99.9 percent of the problem?


Because it's easier to blame the manufacturer of "dangerous" garden tools than admitting you're the one who puts them in the hands of seven year olds.


----------



## swolf

daringnovelist said:


> (Note: this response was to my post about why retailers are going after Pseudo-Incest and other "barely legal" genres. I mentioned -- as a part of a larger explanation -- that it's because of the justification for banning all child p*rn, even when it's just a fictional child depicted: even though no actual child was exploited, such stories -- when they are for the purpose of titillation -- are illegal because they "promote" child abuse.)
> 
> I'm not justifying this, I'm explaining it. I want to make that clear. Arguing with me won't help you. (And note, I am not a lawyer.)
> 
> My point here is not to take a stand on whether child p*rn should be banned at all. There are a lot of debates on that, but that's irrelevant to the issue here. It's a fact that certain things ARE illegal.
> 
> I was only pointing out that, given the purpose and justification of the law itself, then it applies to many (not all) pseudo-incest stories and the like.
> 
> And this is important, because the thing people are overlooking here is that this all goes back to the *phrasing of law and liability*.
> 
> There is no law that says you can't promote murder or taking drugs. (There are laws about hate crimes that might overlap into that, though.)
> 
> But even if there were; murder mysteries, and crime fiction and stories about victims of incest do not *promote* those things. So that's irrelevant to the point of why PI is being targeted.
> 
> So there are two different issues; one is whether there should be a ban on any kind of incest story (or bestiality story or rape story) and the other is how it applies to stories which have the same content and appeal to the same audience in the same way, but have some words changed to push it over the line into legality.
> 
> If your argument is against the law/ban itself, then go after the ban on all out incest. If the argument is that it's okay to ban incest, then before you can defend pseudo-incest, you have to look at the ban and its justifications before you can successfully do that.
> 
> Camille


You're still confusing the act, with writing fiction about the act. Yes, incest is illegal in some places, but writing fiction about incest is not. Just like murder is illegal and writing fiction about murder is not.

And there is no 'promoting' going on. Books about serial killers with graphic violence do not 'promote' killing. And books about incest - whether it's step or actual - with graphic sex do not promote incest.


----------



## swolf

CrystalVeeyant said:


> Sadly that is not the _only_ thrust of the crackdown. I currently have three titles: one I'm trying to get into print, another that's been selling for three months and one I've sold for over a year, and they are all BLOCKED due to interior content. One of them was selling rather well until Carlos F slammed it to the mat.
> 
> I fear the only way I will be able to get them published again will be to heavily censor them and take out the things that made them so popular. Amazon's hypocrisy disgusts me, and it should disturb anyone who writes erotica, for tomorrow they could decide that _your_ subgenre in beneath the pale,


Yes, I've had one blocked recently also. One that's been out for two years.

My only guess as to why it was blocked was because one of the characters mentions he fantasized about one of the other characters before she turned 18.


----------



## mrv01d

Here's an article that just came out, a literary analysis of Selena Kitt's Baumgartner series. The books have been repeatedly blocked by Amazon and I know she's had to fight hard to keep the books up.

Very interesting read in light of all the book banning and sanitizing going on: http://www.salon.com/2013/10/19/a_self_published_erotic_novelist_pioneers_a_new_kind_of_porn/


----------



## swolf

mrv01d said:


> Here's an article that just came out, a literary analysis of Selena Kitt's Baumgartner series. The books have been repeatedly blocked by Amazon and I know she's had to fight hard to keep the books up.
> 
> Very interesting read in light of all the book banning and sanitizing going on: http://www.salon.com/2013/10/19/a_self_published_erotic_novelist_pioneers_a_new_kind_of_porn/


Great article. Thanks for posting it.

Yes, Amazon recently made her change the title from 'Babysitting the Baumgartners' to 'Sitting the Baumgartners'.

It's a madhouse. A MAAAADHOUSE!


----------



## Sarma

Terrence OBrien said:


> There are no limits. Who is limiting your artistic expression and exploration?


You seem to take a very black or white stance on this issue and enjoy playing the devil's advocate. I'm loving it! (yes, seriously)

I'm not sure "who" is limiting my artistic expression, because I'm not sure it's happened yet. I just said I don't _want _it to happen, not that I have a legal right for it not to happen. I don't want to _feel_ limited when I'm being creative, and permanent censorship of full length novels that explore dark themes, including sexual themes, will be on my mind, limiting my expression. Please spare me a lecture about how Amazon is not contractually obligated to care about my feelings. I understand that.

I don't write so that words can exist on a piece of paper. I write so that people can hear me. Amazon is the best way to reach the biggest audience. If they are permanently heavy handed with dark themes in a full length story, it is going to affect how I write.



Terrence OBrien said:


> Disagree. Amazon in no way limits an authors exploration or expression. What it is doing is refraining from having a commercial relationship with the author. Those are two very different things and the distinction is vital. This would be totally different if Amazon was actually stopping an author from exploring or expressing. It is not doing that.


No, they are not coming up with a gestapo team to break into my house and steal my computer or threatening me with physical violence. Apparently that's all that matters to you.

Part of expression, for me, is being heard. When all of our outlets to be effectively heard become privatized, legally, we don't lose our rights to free speech. But practically speaking, we do.



Terrence OBrien said:


> Nobody is slapping an author because they dont choose to do business with the author. In an earlier post I asked if Amazon owes independent authors anything. The question was characterized as odd, but this is the reason I asked it.


Legally, no. And it's great that you brought it up. I too roll my eyes every time someone screams "free speech" when they want to rant about politics on a forum and get banned, or show up to work nude or wearing an obscene T-shirt.

Practically, ethically, yes, Amazon does owe independent authors. The ability to discreetly read erotic literature is one of the reasons customers started buying their Kindles. It may have even been the biggest factor. Self-publishers are the people who created this literature and therefore, possibly the success of the Kindle.

I think the real question is, what does Amazon owe its customers? I'm sure more than a few people bought Kindles to read the type of literature they are banning. Taking away their main selling point after they take the consumer's money is a little like bait and switch advertising.

It's no coincidence that Amazon has all the rights here and the artists and consumers have none. I think we as a society, definitely in the USA, are at a point where some of these constitutional freedoms need to extend to the private sector. Practically, when everything is privatized, these freedoms no longer exist.

Honestly, a 6K story where someone who is a pseudo adult (virgin highschool senior) gets pseudo-raped by their pseudo-father is walking a fine legal line. And I would say that most people would consider this "pornography" something that is expressly prohibited in Amazon's content guidelines.

If anyone has a full length novel that has been banned, they need to be screaming this fact all over the Internet right now. We aren't going to get a lot of sympathy from Amazon's customer base for our short pornographic stories. But if they are permanently censoring well developed storylines of erotic romances, the uproar should protect us where the law doesn't.


----------



## daringnovelist

swolf said:


> You're still confusing the act, with writing fiction about the act. Yes, incest is illegal in some places, but writing fiction about incest is not. Just like murder is illegal and writing fiction about murder is not.
> 
> And there is no 'promoting' going on. Books about serial killers with graphic violence do not 'promote' killing. And books about incest - whether it's step or actual - with graphic sex do not promote incest.


Sigh. (Note again, I am not a lawyer.)

You're mixing up the difference between depiction and pornographic depiction. Depiction is not illegal.

These laws aren't against depicting the act. They're against _promoting_ the act. That's the word you'll see in many of the laws, and it's the word very often used in Terms of Service language. (And yes, even fictional depiction of sex with children is considered illegal in some places.)

They use that word to define the difference between a book about surviving child sexual abuse and pornographic materials which depict it as something pleasurable.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just explaining what is going on in the minds of those who are going after some things while letting others stand. (Which is what was asked -- I was answering a question.)

You've GOT to understand what's going on with the other side before you can effectively change something.

Camille


----------



## justagirl

Terrence OBrien said:


> Disagree. Amazon in no way limits an authors exploration or expression.
> 
> Nobody is slapping an author because they dont choose to do business with the author. In an earlier post I asked if Amazon owes independent authors anything. The question was characterized as odd, but this is the reason I asked it.


Why are these things mutually exclusive? I don't see it that way.

Technically, legally, no - Amazon doesn't owe it's authors anything more than payment for what is already been sold.

But that doesn't mean they aren't going around slapping faces.

I think of it this way - there's a big classroom full of students, and a company wants to hand out scholarships. The company is banking on the talents of these students working for them, and the students want to better themselves. The company hands out scholarships to every kid in the room - except one. That one, they've heard a few rumors about. That one has the weirdo ideas.

That one realizes that the company doesn't have to give scholarships to anyone, but when she's looking around and sees all of her classmates being able to advance themselves and their ideas, she feels like the company slapped her in the face just for being from the wrong side of the tracks - and without a scholarship, she knows that she's not going to be able to go to college.


----------



## swolf

daringnovelist said:


> Sigh. (Note again, I am not a lawyer.)


No, you're not a lawyer. You're just confused.



daringnovelist said:


> You're mixing up the difference between depiction and pornographic depiction. Depiction is not illegal.


Neither is fictional pornographic depiction. If you think it's illegal, then please point out the law that makes it so.



daringnovelist said:


> These laws aren't against depicting the act. They're against _promoting_ the act.


The only laws against promotion of porn has to do with advertising it. There is no 'promotion of the act' in pornography.



daringnovelist said:


> That's the word you'll see in many of the laws


Show me the laws.



daringnovelist said:


> (And yes, even fictional depiction of sex with children is considered illegal in some places.)


Oh, now we're down to 'some places'? You could say that about anything. A woman buying a cucumber is illegal in some countries. That statement is meaningless.



daringnovelist said:


> They use that word to define the difference between a book about surviving child sexual abuse and pornographic materials which depict it as something pleasurable.


There have been instances of prosecutors trying to apply laws like this, but every time they get in front of the Supreme Court, they're overturned.



daringnovelist said:


> I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just explaining what is going on in the minds of those who are going after some things while letting others stand. (Which is what was asked -- I was answering a question.)


No, you're making stuff up.



daringnovelist said:


> You've GOT to understand what's going on with the other side before you can effectively change something.


I don't have to change any laws against written pornography, because SCOTUS does that for us.

in Ashcroft v Free Speech Coalition, SCOTUS determined:



> By prohibiting child pornography that does not depict an actual child, the statute goes beyond New York v. Ferber, 458 U.S. 747 (1982), which distinguished child pornography from other sexually explicit speech because of the State's interest in protecting the children exploited by the production process.
> 
> ...
> 
> Congress may pass valid laws to protect children from abuse, and it has. E.g., 18 U.S.C. § 2241 2251. The prospect of crime, however, by itself does not justify laws suppressing protected speech. See Kingsley Int'l Pictures Corp. v. Regents of Univ. of N. Y., 360 U.S. 684, 689 (1959) ("Among free men, the deterrents ordinarily to be applied to prevent crime are education and punishment for violations of the law, not abridgment of the rights of free speech") (internal quotation marks and citation omitted)). It is also well established that speech may not be prohibited because it concerns subjects offending our sensibilities. See FCC v. Pacifica Foundation, 438 U.S. 726, 745 (197 ("[T]he fact that society may find speech offensive is not a sufficient reason for suppressing it"); see also Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U.S. 844, 874 (1997) ("In evaluating the free speech rights of adults, we have made it perfectly clear that '(s)exual expression which is indecent but not obscene is protected by the First Amendment' ") (quoting Sable Communications of Cal., Inc. v. FCC, 492 U.S. 115, 126 (1989); Carey v. Population Services Int'l, 431 U.S. 678, 701 (1977) ("[T]he fact that protected speech may be offensive to some does not justify its suppression").
> 
> ...
> 
> As a general principle, the First Amendment bars the government from dictating what we see or read or speak or hear. The freedom of speech has its limits; it does not embrace certain categories of speech, including defamation, incitement, obscenity, and pornography produced with real children.
> 
> ...
> 
> In contrast to the speech in Ferber, speech that itself is the record of sexual abuse, the CPPA prohibits speech that records no crime and creates no victims by its production. Virtual child pornography is not "intrinsically related" to the sexual abuse of children, as were the materials in Ferber. 458 U.S., at 759. While the Government asserts that the images can lead to actual instances of child abuse, see infra, at 13-16, the causal link is contingent and indirect. The harm does not necessarily follow from the speech, but depends upon some unquantified potential for subsequent criminal acts.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Government submits further that virtual child pornography whets the appetites of pedophiles and encourages them to engage in illegal conduct. This rationale cannot sustain the provision in question. *The mere tendency of speech to encourage unlawful acts is not a sufficient reason for banning it.* The government "cannot constitutionally premise legislation on the desirability of controlling a person's private thoughts." Stanley v. Georgia, 394 U.S. 557, 566 (1969). First Amendment freedoms are most in danger when the government seeks to control thought or to justify its laws for that impermissible end. The right to think is the beginning of freedom, and speech must be protected from the government because speech is the beginning of thought.
> 
> To preserve these freedoms, and to protect speech for its own sake, the Court's First Amendment cases draw vital distinctions between words and deeds, between ideas and conduct. See Kingsley Int'l Pictures Corp., 360 U.S., at 689; see also Bartnicki v. Vopper, 532 U.S. 514, 529 (2001) ("The normal method of deterring unlawful conduct is to impose an appropriate punishment on the person who engages in it"). The government may not prohibit speech because it increases the chance an unlawful act will be committed "at some indefinite future time." Hess v. Indiana, 414 U.S. 105, 108 (1973) (per curiam). The government may suppress speech for advocating the use of force or a violation of law only if "such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 447 (1969) (per curiam). There is here no attempt, incitement, solicitation, or conspiracy. The Government has shown no more than a remote connection between speech that might encourage thoughts or impulses and any resulting child abuse. Without a significantly stronger, more direct connection,* the Government may not prohibit speech on the ground that it may encourage pedophiles to engage in illegal conduct*.


Read that closely, especially the bolded parts. There is no 'promotion' in porn.

Or as SCOTUS puts it, "The mere tendency of speech to encourage unlawful acts is not a sufficient reason for banning it."


----------



## Ann in Arlington

O.K. I totally think this thread is way past it's 'sell by date'. . . . and now there's picking apart posts point by point which is usually the sign that it's jumped the shark.  So I'm locking it.

We'll discuss amongst ourselves as to whether the locking should be permanent this time.


----------

