# I never knew Henry Ford was such a jerk.



## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

Seriously.  Mr. Industrialization himself, "Mr. Assembly Line" was a control freak, I guess.  I watched it on PBS last night and just wonder if anyone else has seen it.

This man gave his only son a hard time any chance he got.  He industrialized the world (to some extent) and then ran away from it.  His best friend was some hard-core gangster (so to speak).

After watching that, I have lost all respect for Mr. Ford.  Edsel should have back-handed him while he could.

Oh, yeah, and poor Clara ...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hubby and I watched it last night and liked it enough that we ordered the DVD right away from Amazon so we can watch it again. (We're car geeks.)

I knew a lot of the stuff before but still learned things, especially about the innovations he introduced early in his career. I thought it was a pretty balanced depiction of him. As one of our friends said, Ford was a "briliiant but flawed" man. I've been to the Piquet Avenue plant they showed...pictures somewhere...

His best friends were people like Thomas Edison and Harvey Firestone, though that ground has been well-travelled in books like Uncommon Friends by James Newton. Not available on Kindle, however.


I didn't find it unusual that, having reached great success with one set of ideas, he had difficulty adapting to a changing world. Enzo Ferrari was much the same, resisting new technology on his race cars long after he should have allowed it--modern suspension and disc brakes, for example. He was a jerk, too, in his private life. But I stil find him fascinating.

I agree about Ford's treatment of Edsel; it made me sad. So many lost years.

Betsy


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hubby and I watched it last night and liked it enough that we ordered the DVD right away from Amazon so we can watch it again. (We're car geeks.)
> 
> I knew a lot of the stuff before but still learned things, especially about the innovations he introduced early in his career. I thought it was a pretty balanced depiction of him. As one of our friends said, Ford was a "briliiant but flawed" man. I've been to the Piquet Avenue plant they showed...pictures somewhere...
> 
> ...


Thanks, Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Here are a couple of pics from our trip to the Piquet Avenue plant in Detroit. We also visited Edsel Ford's home, well worth a visit if you are in the Detroit area. Beautiful estate.

















Betsy


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## NicoleSwan (Oct 2, 2011)

Another one that shocks a lot of people is the whole Tesla vs Edison drama, very sad in some ways.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Don't forget his anti-semitism and connections with Nazism.

On the other hand, he industrialized the world as mentioned, and early-on treated his workers extremely well, if paternally. Later of course, he was a union-buster.

Wouldn't it be easier if the world was just card-carrying good guys and black-hearted villains, without all these shades of gray?


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

NicoleSwan said:


> Another one that shocks a lot of people is the whole Tesla vs Edison drama, very sad in some ways.


Beware, there is a lot of unfounded credit grabbing for Tesla written by zealous admirers. But Edison was a turd to anyone he competed with, inventing the electric chair just to discredit AC electricity, which was in competition with his own products, even though he opposed capital punishment.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Yes, the documentary dealt a lot with Ford's anti-Semitism...

Another interesting thing about the Piquet plant--it had a very early (if not the first) implementation of fire doors that would close off parts of the plant.  And pillars that, though made of wood, were burn resistent as they were built as octagons instead of squares, eliminating sharp corners that would be easier to burn.

Betsy


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

The Hooded Claw said:


> Don't forget his anti-semitism and connections with Nazism.
> 
> On the other hand, he industrialized the world as mentioned, and early-on treated his workers extremely well, if paternally. Later of course, he was a union-buster.
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier if the world was just card-carrying good guys and black-hearted villains, without all these shades of gray?


Thanks for bringing that up! The whole anti-Jew thing sort of caught me off guard. This man wanted his cake and eat it, too.

Oh, man, I drive a Ford.

hehehe. True.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

The Hooded Claw said:


> Beware, there is a lot of unfounded credit grabbing for Tesla written by zealous admirers. But Edison was a turd to anyone he competed with, inventing the electric chair just to discredit AC electricity, which was in competition with his own products, even though he opposed capital punishment.


Edison had people demonstrate the advantages of DC over AC at county fairs, to include electrocuting dogs by AC (as if people and animals couldn't be electrocuted by DC).

Betsy


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

The Hooded Claw said:


> Beware, there is a lot of unfounded credit grabbing for Tesla written by zealous admirers. But Edison was a turd to anyone he competed with, inventing the electric chair just to discredit AC electricity, which was in competition with his own products, even though he opposed capital punishment.


Um, isn't that another thread?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

CatherineM said:


> Um, isn't that another thread?


I think discussions of other "great" men who were also jerks is very much on topic....and it's interesting since Edison was Ford's very good friend.

It's possible, even probable, that they shared a common world view.

Betsy


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I think discussions of other "great" men who were also jerks is very much on topic....and it's interesting since Edison was Ford's very good friend.
> 
> It's possible, even probable, that they shared a common world view.
> 
> Betsy


Well, ok. I guess. I always think of Tesla as THE LOUDEST BAND I've ever seen in my life. lol
And maybe I need to buy a Chevy............. 

(You know my warped sense of humor)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

CatherineM said:


> Well, ok. I guess. I always think of Tesla as THE LOUDEST BAND I've ever seen in my life. lol


And a lot of people think of Tesla as the electric car...

But both were named after Tesla the inventor.

Betsy


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Edison had people demonstrate the advantages of DC over AC at county fairs, to include electrocuting dogs by AC (as if people and animals couldn't be electrocuted by DC).


No, no, no....he didn't electrocute them, he Westinghoused them....a word Edison tried to promote that didnt catch on. Just another aspect of being a turd.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

CatherineM said:


> Well, ok. I guess. I always think of Tesla as THE LOUDEST BAND I've ever seen in my life. lol


Back in school days, I would've told you that a Tesla was a unit of magnetic field strength. Fortunately, my school days are over...


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

CatherineM said:


> Um, isn't that another thread?


Betsy will tell you I never mind, though I will run away when she gets out the cattle prod. I'm a melodrama villain, after all....


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

The Hooded Claw said:


> Back in school days, I would've told you that a Tesla was a unit of magnetic field strength. Fortunately, my school days are over...


And my stepson brought up the Tesla coil....

When we were in New York last year, we stayed at the New Yorker Hotel where Tesla died.

To get back to Ford, I thought it was interesting to see, in the documentary, that it showed Dearborn Village being built. We went there years ago, not on our most recent trip to Detroit. Fascinating place.

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Here's the documentary in question:


Betsy


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Here's the documentary in question:
> 
> 
> Betsy


Once again, thank you, Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

No problem!  It's what I do....

Betsy


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No problem! It's what I do....
> 
> Betsy


What really got me was when Henry was talking to Harry about Edsel after Edsel died. Harry told Henry that he had been unfair to his son. He also told him that if it were him, he would have "gotten mad."

Henry Ford replied something to the effect that that's what he wanted him to do.

What does that even mean?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Well, bearing in mind that we never know how accurate these stories about conversations between two people are, I took it as Henry was trying to challenge Edsel and have him prove himself by going up against the old man...

Betsy


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Well, bearing in mind that we never know how accurate these stories about conversations between two people are, I took it as Henry was trying to challenge Edsel and have him prove himself by going up against the old man...
> 
> Betsy


Correct.

Which brings up my original point. He should have backhanded him while he could. Instead, he died a dreadful death and his father grieved.


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

It doesn't appear that Edsel had that sort of personality, though.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

While in the big, holistic picture I don't agree, in the narrower focus of highly competitive things like being a business tycoon, it's probably true much more often than not that "Nice guys finish last." From what I've heard of Steve Jobs, he was an opinionated micro-manager -- but if you also happen to be right more often than not, you can succeed that way.

Also, being successful does not in any way prohibit you from succumbing to common prejudices and biases of the times, including now (anyone heard a little news story recently about some cooking show hostess?).

Does that mean I'm condoning anything you find distasteful about Ford? No. It just means that I'm not _surprised_ about any of it.


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

NogDog said:


> While in the big, holistic picture I don't agree, in the narrower focus of highly competitive things like being a business tycoon, it's probably true much more often than not that "Nice guys finish last." From what I've heard of Steve Jobs, he was an opinionated micro-manager -- but if you also happen to be right more often than not, you can succeed that way.
> 
> Also, being successful does not in any way prohibit you from succumbing to common prejudices and biases of the times, including now (anyone heard a little news story recently about some cooking show hostess?).
> 
> Does that mean I'm condoning anything you find distasteful about Ford? No. It just means that I'm not _surprised_ about any of it.


Business is business and that's fine.

What he did to his kid is inexcusable.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Good old song, but needs a lyric rewrite to cover jerkhood towards Edsel.


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

CatherineM said:


> It doesn't appear that Edsel had that sort of personality, though.


Clara had to put up with both of them.......Saint Clara, anyone?


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

CatherineM said:


> Business is business and that's fine.
> 
> What he did to his kid is inexcusable.


As I said: I'm not condoning it, just not particularly surprised by it.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Henry Ford published an anti-semitic newspaper and was charged with libel. You can read more here:

http://www.americanbarfoundation.org/research/project/19

My great-grandfather was asked to be his defense attorney. It is interesting how stories diverge. Articles from the Ford perspective say that my great-grandfather was fired because he was a chain smoker. Family documents tell another story. My great-grandfather did travel to Detroit to meet with Mr. Ford but said when he returned home that he would never take on the case because he found the basis of it reprehensible and he also thought Henry Ford was a jerk.

http://history.hanover.edu/hhr/99/hhr99_2.html (try to ignore the weird question marks)
http://www.stockmaven.com/logsdon99_P.htm
http://claver.gprep.org/fac/sjochs/Henry%20Ford-complexity.htm

My great-grandfather was DeLancey Nicoll. His name is buried in these articles and briefly mentioned.

L


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

CatherineM said:


> It doesn't appear that Edsel had that sort of personality, though.


Edsel deserves a song.

At least a line in a song.

Geez.


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

Leslie said:


> Henry Ford published an anti-semitic newspaper and was charged with libel. You can read more here:
> 
> http://www.americanbarfoundation.org/research/project/19
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting.

I can totally understand what you say. It's like, WHAT do you believe

It's documented that he was as sharp as a marble.
Hmm. But, yet he made millions of cars, right?

He is an enigma.

And he treated his own kid like crap. Why?


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## CatherineM (Jan 9, 2013)

CatherineM said:


> Thank you for posting.
> 
> I can totally understand what you say. It's like, WHAT do you believe
> 
> ...


I bet MJ and Edsel are in Heaven laughing at their pathetic parents. (They both got screwed if you ask me)


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## Seamonkey (Dec 2, 2008)

That is interesting, Leslie!  We lived in Detroit in the fifties and Dad worked for Ford in Dearborn (in charge of mobilization planning and defense products.. which would kick in if we went back to war and the plant was needed to produce tanks (or whatever)).  

And of course we went to Greenfield Village and the Rotunda and various Ford locations.

I was in Girl Scouts and when we went so spend the night at Camp Dearborn the leaders were TOLD than no Jews were allowed in Dearborn..  I've never forgotten that.  Later read of his anti Semitism.  

And  we had an Edsel.. it was actually a great car and we kept it a second year because we liked it so much.  Normally we'd get a new car at such a good price that it was an advantage to sell it after the year and buy another.  Later Dad was on the lease plan.  They want to get their products out on the road.    Of course "great car" in my Dad's view was one of the big boat type cars..  I hated driving his huge Mercurys when I had my learner's permit.

Trying to remember the Ford biography I read and whether it was before or after Kindle..


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## Pawz4me (Feb 14, 2009)

I didn't see the documentary, but my homeschooled youngest DS (14) did a paper on Henry Ford a few months ago.  We were both quite surprised to learn what a nutter he was.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Plenty of people have parents who were jerks.  I can sympathise with people who have poor relationships with their parents.  Ultimately, though, people have to live their own lives.  Edsel didn't have to keep working for his father.  I don't really think, all in all, Edsel's life exactly sucked.    But his relationship with his father could have been better.

Leslie, thanks for the info, serendipity is fascinating!

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Seamonkey said:


> I was in Girl Scouts and when we went so spend the night at Camp Dearborn the leaders were TOLD than no Jews were allowed in Dearborn.. I've never forgotten that. Later read of his anti Semitism.


Wow, Seamonkey! Thanks for sharing that...

Betsy


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Leslie, thanks for the info, serendipity is fascinating!
> 
> Betsy


Thanks, Betsy, I agree!

Interestingly, my grandfather (also an attorney) did take on the Ford Motor Company as a client. His job was to get the city of New York to accept Ford cars into its fleet of taxis. Once he succeeded with Ford, he did the same thing for General Motors.

I don't know if he had any direct contact with Henry Ford during this process.

L


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Catherine, do you know you keep quoting and responding to yourself. 

So Ford was a jerk. I'd guess a lot of those turn of the 20th century industrialists were in some way.

I'd guess there's probably an element of 'crazy' in anyone with a touch of 'genius'. But if they're likeable it's just called 'being eccentric'. 

And I've known a number of folks who have had a really good idea about something -- who then turned thoroughly obstinate at the idea that anyone else could have an idea to make it even better.

I've also known a lot of people who treat their kids badly, so that's not exclusive to the rich/clever/powerful. 

And does anyone else watch _Sanctuary_ on SyFy -- it's a summer series. In that one, Tesla is a vampire. 

(Coincidence that Claw brought up the cattle prod while discussing Tesla? I think not!  )

My brother lives not far from Edison's home/factory -- now a historic site/national park in West Orange, NJ. . .one of these days we need to go for a tour, but we're usually only up there for a day or so when we go.  Interestingly, one of the buildings there was disassembled and shipped to Dearborn in the '40's. When it was no longer needed at Ford, it was shipped back.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

Ford did later apologize for the anti-semitic tract he wrote. But the plain fact is, a lot of 'great' men of that time were jerks -- the initials WD and JK spring to mind -- and some 'great' men these days probably still are.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Leslie said:


> Thanks, Betsy, I agree!
> 
> Interestingly, my grandfather (also an attorney) did take on the Ford Motor Company as a client. His job was to get the city of New York to accept Ford cars into its fleet of taxis. Once he succeeded with Ford, he did the same thing for General Motors.
> 
> ...


So, who had the taxi deal in NYC before your grandfather got Ford in?

Betsy


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> So, who had the taxi deal in NYC before your grandfather got Ford in?
> 
> Betsy


I have no idea. In fact, I never knew this taxi tidbit until this morning, when I read his obituary in the New York Times:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive/pdf?res=F00F10FC3B5A177B93C4A81782D85F438585F9

I also didn't know he had a muskrat farm in in Calverton, NY.

Another coincidence: he died in Bellingham, WA, home of Kboards owner, Harvey. Small world!

L


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Tony Richards said:


> Ford did later apologize for the anti-semitic tract he wrote. But the plain fact is, a lot of 'great' men of that time were jerks -- the initials WD and JK spring to mind -- and some 'great' men these days probably still are.


But, as with so many things, it seems the apology was also not black and white...

http://www.americanbarfoundation.org/news/345


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## Seamonkey (Dec 2, 2008)

I didn't realize that the Edison workshop had been sent back.  We used to see it at Greenfiend Village.  Ford also had English cottages moved over stone by stone and recreated.. and of course the first Ford, locomotives, etc.  It was a cool place to go.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Seamonkey said:


> I didn't realize that the Edison workshop had been sent back. We used to see it at Greenfiend Village. Ford also had English cottages moved over stone by stone and recreated.. and of course the first Ford, locomotives, etc. It was a cool place to go.


Greenfield Village was a great place to visit. They also have (if I am remembering correctly) the car President Kennedy was riding in when he was assassinated. The creepy thing I learned is that they used it for another decade after he was killed before they retired the car. There was also a very cool camper that Charles Lindbergh used to travel all over the country. He wrote his diary notes on the bottom of the drawers in the little kitchenette.

L


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Leslie said:


> Greenfield Village was a great place to visit. They also have (if I am remembering correctly) the car President Kennedy was riding in when he was assassinated. The creepy thing I learned is that they used it for another decade after he was killed before they retired the car. There was also a very cool camper that Charles Lindbergh used to travel all over the country. He wrote his diary notes on the bottom of the drawers in the little kitchenette.
> 
> L


I remember seeing the limo when we went there in the 80s. Don't remember the camper.

Betsy


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