# Its a pity 'Hunger Games' isn't original, but a stolen concept.



## Ian Fraser (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm venting...

Long before 'Hunger Games,' there was 'Battle Royale' - a brutal and brilliant Japanese film that itself, owed nods to Stephen King's 'The Long Walk' and 'The Running Man.' Here's the plot of BR: (see if it sounds familiar)...

"It's a story of adolescent boys and girls being randomly pulled into a filmed game show of a gory deathmatch in an arena filled with natural and artificial hazards set in a dystopian society with a totalitarian government that likes to show the people that they're still in charge. Some of the contestants embrace the opportunity to cause mayhem; others try to navigate the situation with diplomacy, only to be ruthlessly murdered by more vicious players. The story ultimately focuses on a trio of protagonists, one slightly older and embittered by loss because he has played and won the game before; the other two are younger and more innocent, and turn to their more mature peer for guidance and inspiration. In the end, instead of the usual one winner, there is a plot twist and the two younger players become lovers and end up winning the game in the end. Then they go on in the next story to try and overthrow the totalitarian government."

I think Hunger Games 'author' and her publisher should be ashamed. She says she 'never heard of Battle Royale' until she turned in her manuscript? R-i-g-h-t... And adding insult to injury, Hollywood reveals its creative bankruptcy by dumbing down and copying a far superior film, without a whisper of acknowledgment for its makers.

Newspapers weigh in:

http://www.mercurynews.com/entertainment/ci_20231434/before-hunger-games-there-was-battle-royale

http://www.inquisitr.com/209912/battle-royale-the-hunger-games-similarities/

BATTLE ROYALE TRAILER: http://youtu.be/qMOCEF4n_zs

Do yourself a favor, Netflix or source the original film if you want to see the real 'hunger games.'
/film geek mode off


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## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

Methinks that it is 5:30 am and I have yet to fall asleep. When I awake, this thread will have definitely grown in size and passion.

Caedem


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## StrokerChase (Mar 4, 2012)

The idea of throwing people into gladiator style matches is nothing new. Sure, it sounds a lot like Battle Royale. But Battle Royale is a lot more violent and strange. It's a different movie of itself. It's also a book. Haven't read the book, however.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

CaedemMarquez said:


> Methinks that it is 5:30 am and I have yet to fall asleep. When I awake, this thread will have definitely grown in size and passion.
> 
> Caedem


Not yet, it hasn't.

Frankly, I don't think it matters much. Not to easy to come up with a purely original story, and while I don't know anything at all about Battle Royale, I saw the connection to The Running Man. And what about Ender's Game? So what? It's not about the idea and never has been. What is the brilliant new idea in Macbeth or Hamlet?

It's all about the writing.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I've read Battle Royale and The Hunger Games.  Anyone who really thinks they have that much to do with each other other than the whole "gladiatorial teenagers" thing clearly hasn't really read them.  Sure, the idea in both books isn't a brand new one, but the worlds and characters are totally different and the actual details of the plots are also VERY different.  Saying they are the same would be like saying peanut butter and apple butter are the same. Sure, both pastes made out of stuff that you can put on toast, but the ingredients and execution are so different that anyone who tasted both would just look at you like you're crazy if you tried to say they were exactly the same.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> I've read Battle Royale and The Hunger Games. Anyone who really thinks they have that much to do with each other other than the whole "gladiatorial teenagers" thing clearly hasn't really read them. Sure, the idea in both books isn't a brand new one, but the worlds and characters are totally different and the actual details of the plots are also VERY different. Saying they are the same would be like saying peanut butter and apple butter are the same. Sure, both pastes made out of stuff that you can put on toast, but the ingredients and execution are so different that anyone who tasted both would just look at you like you're crazy if you tried to say they were exactly the same.


Thanks for saying what I was going to say.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I've read _The Hunger Games_, but I've never even heard of _Battle Royale_...(I have read _The Running Man_, one of my favorite Steven King books--I read it when published as Richard Bachman.)

I'm curious--Ian, have you read both?

Now I'm off to look up _Battle Royale_ so I can make up my own mind....

Betsy


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

Her claim is she based it on the Greek myth of the Minotaur.

"In another version, King Minos of Crete had waged war with the Athenians and was successful. He then demanded that, at nine-year intervals, seven Athenian boys and seven Athenian girls were to be sent to Crete to be devoured by the Minotaur, a half-man, half-bull monster that lived in the Labyrinth created by Daedalus."


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## HAGrant (Jul 17, 2011)

I haven't read the Hunger Games or Battle Royale, but that isn't going to stop me from giving an opinion.  

Reality shows are part of modern culture. So is killing each other.

I live in Gettysburg, PA, land of the American Civil War. Reenacting is a HUGE deal. Some groups are hard core fanatics who sleep on the ground, eat the same crappy food, don't bathe, wear authentic clothes, etc. I absolutely believe that if people were allowed to sell tickets to an event where reenactors could fire real bullets and kill each other, it would be a sellout.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

HAGrant said:


> I haven't read the Hunger Games or Battle Royale, but that isn't going to stop me from giving an opinion.
> 
> Reality shows are part of modern culture. So is killing each other.
> 
> I live in Gettysburg, PA, land of the American Civil War. Reenacting is a HUGE deal. Some groups are hard core fanatics who sleep on the ground, eat the same crappy food, don't bathe, wear authentic clothes, etc. I absolutely believe that if people were allowed to sell tickets to an event where reenactors could fire real bullets and kill each other, it would be a sellout.


Too true....


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

this is a GREAT book discussion, and has already gotten me interested in reading some other books...Ann and I have discussed, and we're (I'm) moving this to the Book Corner.  See you there!



Betsy


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Betsy is reading this thread with her mighty Quilt of Doom so I'm going to be more polite than I usually would.

Irrespective of if your claim has any merit or not (I have not read Hunger Games so I cannot comment), attacking other, more successful authors in a public place such as Kindleboards is highly unprofessional.

It doesn't matter if The Hunger Games is similar to another work with a vaguely similar premise or style of execution. Alien is Jaws in space. (Every Vampire YA Romance Story Ever) is (Every Vampire YA Romance Story Ever). Star Wars: A New Hope is Seven Samurai.

It's okay -- more than okay -- to draw upon other media for inspiration. Writers don't write in a vacuum, where ideas are spontaneously created fully formed; we are the products of our environment.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Not quite polite enough, David. I put the "Quilt of Silence" over part of your post.  (And I would hope your respect for KB's Forum Decorum, not my presence in a thread, would affect your posting.  )

I think this is a valid discussion point about a book, whether one agrees or not. At what point do similarly themed books become copies?

And note, probably as you were posting, I moved this to the Book Corner as a discussion of books, not of writing.

Betsy


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## JRainey (Feb 1, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Not yet, it hasn't.
> 
> Frankly, I don't think it matters much. Not to easy to come up with a purely original story, and while I don't know anything at all about Battle Royale, I saw the connection to The Running Man. And what about Ender's Game? So what? It's not about the idea and never has been. What is the brilliant new idea in Macbeth or Hamlet?
> 
> It's all about the writing.


Agreed. Hamlet was even based on another story, that of the Dane Amleth, if memory serves me right (it's been a few years; anyone who wants to correct me surely can). The only difference was that Amleth went straight for the kill rather than angst for five acts like Hamlet.

But I couldn't agree more; it's not about the concept, but the execution. A lot of the concepts about which people write have been around forever. New authors are just putting their own spin on them.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I think it's safe to say there isn't much truly original since Shakespeare. . . and he copied freely from legends and myths that were known in his time.

West Side Story is obviously Romeo and Juliet moved to NY and set to music. . . . .o.k. . . . .that doesn't mean it's not a decent film.

I think the thing is there are 'great themes' that all generations and cultures seem to wrestle with so they do come out in art. . .whether the artist has studied everything that came before or not.

On a more mundane level, how many times have you seen something for sale and realized that the concept is one that you'd half-though of years ago but never really done anything about.  Obviously the inventor didn't read your mind. . . .sometimes people do come up with similar concepts at the same time without any collusion or copying.

Hence:  "Great minds think alike" and "Jinx: you owe me a coke."


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## StrokerChase (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm willing to bet if you watch Hunger Games, and think you're going to get the same thing from Battle Royale, you're going to quite surprised! Battle Royale is a Japanese gore fest. It's a good movie, however, just a lot more mature, I guess you would say.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Not quite polite enough, David. I put the "Quilt of Silence" over part of your post.


Quite a'right, Betsy.


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## Kenton Crowther (Jan 5, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I think it's safe to say there isn't much truly original since Shakespeare. . . and he copied freely from legends and myths that were known in his time.


I believe out of all Shakespeare's plays there was only one for which he supplied the plot himself: _The Tempest_. 
Also, _The Magnificent Seven_ was based on a samurai movie, which didn't detract from it at all. Nor was _Tarzan of the Apes_ damaged much, certainly not from the point of view of sales, when Kipling claimed Burroughs had plundered _The Jungle Book_ for ideas.
Borrow freely has always been the motto--so long as you add plenty that is your own too.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Kenton Crowther said:


> I believe out of all Shakespeare's plays there was only one for which he supplied the plot himself: _The Tempest_.


See. . .and that got ripped off into Robinson Crusoe, and that movie with Tom Hanks and the Volleyball. . . . .and Survivor, in a way!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Woody Guthrie said "He just stole from me, but I steal from everyone."    And I've seen "Plagiarism is basic to all cultures" attributed to several people, including Pete Seeger.  Not that I'm advocating plagiarism...but folk music is about as fluid as it gets.    And if you young'uns don't know who those people are, well, that's what Google (substitue your preferred search engine) is for.

Betsy


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## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

When are people going to get over this? It always amazes me that there was never the same kind of outcry against _Eragon_, for example, which was an almost point-for-point ripoff of _Star Wars_.

Even if Suzanne Collins was heavily influenced by _Battle Royale_ and _The Running Man_, she ultimately created her own original series.


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

Following that logic everyone has ripped off someone.  There really aren't any news ideas.  Twists in story, certainly.  But to chide an author because her story is similar to someone else's is poor sport.  When I teach, the first thing we do is write down the idea.  Then I tell the writer to find a book with the same idea and study it.  That's not plagiarism; that's learning.  

I saw references to those other stories in reviews of Hunger Games.  And, as noted, perhaps the Japanese author ripped off the Minotaur legend?  Who ripped off Fred, down the street, who told stories to his kids.

Actually, the screenwriter for Alien got sued by the makers of a film in the 1950s, where the spaceship lands on a planet, a monster gets on board and starts eating people.  Because everyone thinks everyone is ripping them off.  The key to Alien was putting a female protagonist in a classic scifi storyline.

Anyway.  This argument could be made about any book or movie and thus is futile.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Maybe not an original concept but why is the automatic assumption that she had seen Battle Royale and "stole" the concept? Why not start with the benefit of the doubt?

by the way, the movie was awesome.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Obviously, people really do plagiarize, and that's a rotten thing to do. Sharing a similar concept, and taking it to a new place, is not plagiarism; it's the essence of inspiration/creativity. You take a "what if," and you're probably not the only person with that "what if," and see what your imagination, your muse, the voices in your head can do with it. 

Writers know this better than anyone -- how each line and paragraph can change the direction of the story, put a different stamp on it. 

All this without knowing if Suzanne Collins was familiar with Battle Royale. I see no reason why she should be ashamed. 

Whatever people like about Hunger Games belongs to Hunger Games. The people who love it don't do so because of Battle Royale. Telling them that there is this better thing, and implying there's something wrong with them for liking something you deem inferior, will not win hearts and minds.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

So, I'm good to go on my new trilogy, _The Thirsty Games_?

Yeah, _Alien_ was a modern telling of _It! The Terror from Beyond Space_, and James Cameron had to pay Harlan Ellison a couple hundred thousand for basing _The Terminator_ in some part on Ellison's story "Soldier" for _The Outer Limits_. But I think that Hollywood is more litigious than the publishing industry.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Can't agree with the OP's venting at all. I don't think Collins should be ashamed of anything and I'm sure she hadn't seen Battle Royale because I haven't seen it either and know little about it. In fact I'm sure billions of people haven't seen it and know little to nothing about it. I've read The Running Man, but too different.

The concept of a corrupt totalitarian government demanding children as tribute is an old story dating back to prehistory I'm sure. Collin's just had a different way to tell it which appealed to readers. Most good stories are rooted in the mythic. Those newspapers the OP cited are just trying to be controversial to sell newspapers.


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## Jerri Kay Lincoln (Jun 18, 2011)

A quote from The Guardian about Ursula K. LeGuin's novel, A Wizard of Earthsea:

"Long before Harry Potter came along, Ursula Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea imagined what a school for wizards would be like."


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

For those, like me, who are curious to judge for themselves:

Not available on Kindle, but here's a link to the paperback:


Blue-Ray DVD:


Amazon Instant Video rental (not free for Prime members):


There are also other options for DVDs include a combo with another Battle Royale movie.

I will probably rent the instant video at some point because of this discussion. I don't generally read paper books, so probably won't spring the 10 bucks for the book.

Betsy


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## Rejean (Mar 31, 2011)

Bob Mayer said:


> Following that logic everyone has ripped off someone. There really aren't any news ideas. Twists in story, certainly. But to chide an author because her story is similar to someone else's is poor sport. When I teach, the first thing we do is write down the idea. Then I tell the writer to find a book with the same idea and study it. That's not plagiarism; that's learning.
> 
> I saw references to those other stories in reviews of Hunger Games. And, as noted, perhaps the Japanese author ripped off the Minotaur legend? Who ripped off Fred, down the street, who told stories to his kids.
> 
> ...


There is an old trope that says there are only seven stories in the world and we are all just retelling them in our own words.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Betsy,
Oh, you must report back after you watch.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Also Stephen King gave Hunger Games a great review and never once mentioned any similarity to Running Man.

HG was written in 2006 and early 2007 and was first published in Sept 2008.

Battle Royale was made in 2000 and was at first shown domestically and then later in Asia and the UK. It did not hit US theaters until Dec 2011 and then only for 15 days. Now possible Collin's went to Japan, Asia or the UK to see it--but I doubt it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

jackz4000 said:


> Also Stephen King gave Hunger Games a great review and never once mentioned any similarity to Running Man.
> 
> HG was written in 2006 and early 2007 and was first published in Sept 2008.
> 
> Battle Royale was made in 2000 and was at first shown domestically and then later in Asia and the UK. It did not hit US theaters until Dec 2011 and then only for 15 days. Now possible Collin's went to Japan, Asia or the UK to see it--but I doubt it.


To play Devil's Advocate, per Wikipedia, here's the publication history of the novel:


> English adaptation
> The novel was translated into English by Yuji Oniki and released in North America by Viz Media on February 26, 2003. An expanded edition with a revised English translation and an afterword by Takami was published on November 17, 2009 by Haika Soru, a division of Viz Media. This version also included an interview with the director of the book's film adaptation, Kinji Fukasaku.


So there was an English-language version as early as 2003. (I'm not on the side of "bad, bad Susan Collins." Just trying to present facts here...

Betsy


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> To play Devil's Advocate, per Wikipedia, here's the publication history of the novel:
> So there was an English-language version as early as 2003. (I'm not on the side of "bad, bad Susan Collins." Just trying to present facts here...
> 
> Betsy


True and there was a limited DVD edition (5000 copies) and bootleg copies prior to HG's publication, so she could have watched it too. Still I believe Collin's statement that she knew nothing of Battle Royale, can't prove it.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

As much as it pains my DS#1, I do not watch new Japanese films like he does, nor do I watch movies with subtitles. If I want to read a story, I get the book. He speaks Japanese, and so he scours for new Japanese movies to watch.  He saw the original "Let the Right One In", "One Missed Call", and "Battle Royale" and many others.. not me.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Millions of stories are told. There's a finite number of human passions and circumstances to explore. There will be overlap.

I got a 2-star review last week that said my work was awesome but it was just like some other work that I'd never heard of.

The Calculus was invented by two people at the same time. The theory of natural selection was co-discovered within a relatively short timeframe.

These things happen. I would be cautious about throwing stones. It's just as likely that both of these stories (and LORD OF THE FLIES) are popular for a reason that's related to our human heritage.

The reason I do not read in my genres is because I would be limited in the stories I could tell if I knew what others were writing. I'd rather be ignorant and overlap than have my hand forced by what's come before.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Bob Mayer said:


> Actually, the screenwriter for Alien got sued by the makers of a film in the 1950s, where the spaceship lands on a planet, a monster gets on board and starts eating people.


I believe they were sued by the SF author A. E. van Vogt for being too similar to his 1950 book _Voyage of the Space Beagle_, a collection of his novellas from the 1930s. Specifically, the lead story _Dark Destroyer_.

Mike


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

There are no new ideas. HG also has comparisons to The Lottery by Shirley Jackson, The Most Dangerous Game, and The Lord of the Flies. So really...


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

Kenton Crowther said:


> I believe out of all Shakespeare's plays there was only one for which he supplied the plot himself: _The Tempest_.


I believe A Midsummer Night's Dream was an original plot too (as far as we know). (I watched The Merchant of Venice last night. Weird hearing Al Pacino and his New Yawk accent spewing Shakespeare's lines.)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

jackz4000 said:


> True and there was a limited DVD edition (5000 copies) and bootleg copies prior to HG's publication, so she could have watched it too. Still I believe Collin's statement that she knew nothing of Battle Royale, can't prove it.


I assume good faith until proven otherwise, so I'm with you on this one. But I find the general discussion interesting, and I've found out about a movie and/or book to watch/read. All is good.

Betsy


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## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

JerriLincoln said:


> A quote from The Guardian about Ursula K. LeGuin's novel, A Wizard of Earthsea:
> 
> "Long before Harry Potter came along, Ursula Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea imagined what a school for wizards would be like."


Exactly. And a lot of other authors have sent wizards and people with magical powers to schools. It's not exactly a unique idea, but that doesn't mean it can't be done fresh and new. It's the execution of a story that matters most. Being influenced by a book is a far cry from plagiarizing a book.


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## acellis (Oct 10, 2011)

The differences come in how you execute the overall plot and theme. There is probably nothing absolutely new in this world.


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## Jorja Tabu (Feb 6, 2012)

This has been covered on the KBoards before (the whole HG vs. BR vs. LW vs. Shirley Jackson's The Lottery thing).  There's a lot of ways to look at how messed up humans can be.


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## Dragle (Dec 10, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> For those, like me, who are curious to judge for themselves:
> 
> Not available on Kindle, but here's a link to the paperback:
> Blue-Ray DVD:
> ...


Don't forget another option: your local library! They have it at mine (though it's checked out at the moment).


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Sean Patrick Fox said:


> Exactly. And a lot of other authors have sent wizards and people with magical powers to schools. It's not exactly a unique idea, but that doesn't mean it can't be done fresh and new. It's the execution of a story that matters most. Being influenced by a book is a far cry from plagiarizing a book.


Exactly. When it's all said and done, it's about how one can take known story elements and combine them in different ways and make them new. If we were to take the Hunger Games and parse it down to it's component elements, we could find examples of that element in various and sundry books, movies and TV shows:


The flamboyant wealth of the eilte is also seen in the books The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson, Grey by Jon Armstrong or Jennifer Government by Max Berry but are they rip-offs of each other ...
The Police state is seen in _1984_, _A Handmaid's Tale_ or _Fatherland_ and hundreds of other dystopias ...
The vast majority of stories have a love interest sub-plot ...

Now, some books are by authors heavily influenced by previous novels or by favorite authors and that may be an author finding her own voice or an unintended influence. I'm sure in some instances it's an intentional move and someone's attempting to make a buck on a current literary fashion (for example, a portion of the current crop of hot, teen vampires) but in most instances, I give an author the benefit of the doubt and assume they're going for originality and may not have achieved that level of creativity that feels fresh and new.


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## jwest (Nov 14, 2011)

I understand where you are coming from on one level, but I cannot allow myself to worry about the Hunger Games being a stolen concept. I am a huge Stephen King fan, so have read both The Long Walk and the Running Man. Also, I have read the Hunger Games trilogy (never heard of Battle Royale, until now). There are similarities here and there, and I enjoyed each work for different reasons. But almost if not all fiction is a variation of a theme, and that variation, that re-invention, is what keeps things interesting and fresh. If you think about it, would you really want only one version of the Vampire tale, the Alien tale, the Mad Scientist tale, the Boy Meets Girl tale, etc? For myself, I would not. Give me a hundred of each, and I will decide which ones are my favorites.


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## Matthew Lee Adams (Feb 19, 2012)

jackz4000 said:


> Also Stephen King gave Hunger Games a great review and never once mentioned any similarity to Running Man.


Actually, King did mention that and others. But he liked the book and didn't have any problem with its execution:

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20419951_20223443,00.html



> The rest of The Hunger Games, however, is a violent, jarring speed-rap of a novel that generates nearly constant suspense and may also generate a fair amount of controversy. I couldn't stop reading, and once I got over the main character's name (Gale calls her Catnip - ugh), I got to like her a lot...
> 
> Also, readers of Battle Royale (by Koushun Takami), The Running Man, or The Long Walk (those latter two by some guy named Bachman) will quickly realize they have visited these TV badlands before.


King gave the book a "B" and said he was looking forward to reading the next two books in the trilogy.

King has always drawn inspiration from other works and has openly talked about this.

He wrote "Salem's Lot" partly as his concept of a modern take on "Dracula." Peter Straub was so enamored with King drawing an entire town as virtually a character unto itself - along with the whole revenant concept - that he did his own version with "Ghost Story" which King has called one of the greatest horror novels of the 20th century.

King also drew inspiration from Shirley Jackson's "The Haunting of Hill House" for "The Shining."

As far as derivation goes, it tends to come down to "substantial similarity" - and not just in the skeleton points of a story. It is never an exact science, and lawsuits against Rowling for Harry Potter and Dan Brown for "The Da Vinci Code" (which definitely drew research and inspiration from "Holy Blood Holy Grail") failed due to the finer points as well as nuances of what defines an infringing work.

I'd say few works don't show derivation - even if the author has never been exposed to the work(s) supposedly derived from. Maybe "Riverworld" - I dunno. Has anyone done a book like that before? Maybe. Otherwise, some works that aren't really plotted and are mainly the author having fun taking a character from one adventure to another - like Mark Twain often did or Thomas Berger did with "Little Big Man." Even Larry McMurtry's "Lonesome Dove" which wasn't quite linear was a tapestry he wove with scenelets from historical characters and events.

As far as I'm concerned, it's all in the execution of the idea. The courts tend to agree - since ideas can't be copyrighted but the "expression of an idea" can be enforced.


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## Neil Ostroff (Mar 25, 2011)

I read The Long Walk years ago and as soon as I saw the movie trailer for Hunger Games I thought, "man, what a rip."


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Dragle said:


> Don't forget another option: your local library! They have it at mine (though it's checked out at the moment).


Yes, it's at mine, too...but I don't really read paper books anymore...  I put a hold on it any way, we'll see if I want to read it enough to actually pick up *shudder* a paper book.

Betsy


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Rejean said:


> There is an old trope that says there are only seven stories in the world and we are all just retelling them in our own words.


Exactly.... Given the "must have no similarity to previous work", we would have 7 fiction books in 7 genres


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

It's a pity one of the OP's book titles is a stolen concept from me.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

_Battle Royale_ is a great read, but it is also a derivative work when viewed solely from within the confines of Japanese lit. I can think of over a dozen Japanese mangas that are based around a collection of school age children being forced to fight one another to the death. The character usually progress through a series of duels and much of the focus is on the motivations of the actors. Why do they fight? What drives them forward through the many horrors? These are the most common questions.

I haven't read many complaints about works being derivative in Japan. In fact, many Japanese authors and mangakas are handsomely rewarded for taking a familiar concept, shifting the light of the prism just a bit, and adding a fine new polish. Some go so far as to reference the previous works. (I believe the purpose of these shout-outs is to honor the artists that came before them.) And that's not counting the proud and vibrant fan-lit communities that fill entire convention centers across Japan. These conventions are derivative to the extreme. But they are also forums in which new artists cut their teeth, and where prospective employers seek out new talent.

In the West, I think we tend to expect too much of our artists. No one will ever be a true original. Michaelangelo was surely influenced by Ghirlandaio. Brunelleschi's work on perspective was built on the shoulders of folks like Alhazen. And if you think Alhazen was the first to strike upon depth in space, I invite you to take a trip to 



.

"You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake."

B.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

[F0NT=Sarcastic]Total ripoff. Hunger Games is a trilogy. But before Hunger Games was a trilogy Twilight was a trilogy. Therefore Hunger Games totally ripped off Twilight.[/font]


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

Battle Royale was also a book first, before it was a film.  Hey, the concept is not entirely new even to the Japanese writer.  I just had a friend tell me about a book called The Girl Who Owned a City which is about kids surviving in a world where a virus wipes out everyone over the age of 12.  Not exactly the same, but kids end up killing kids in that one, too.


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## Halasana (Mar 24, 2012)

Read and saw both _Battle Royale_ and _Hunger Games_ (saw it yesterday). I loved them both for the brilliant-factor.

_Battle Royale_ was written in Japan -- a high-context culture where it's taboo to break groupthink. Imagine trying to convince a Japanese audience that individuals must compete individually against the rest of their peers.The premise of _Battle Royale_ goes against the ingrained culture. I do have to admit that manga and animes have been able to secure an isolated fantasy realm of Japanese culture and are treated differently because of their special place. However, _Battle Royale_ is brilliant because it was able to go mainstream in Japan despite the many different cultural layers and taboos.

If _Hunger Games_ was influenced by _Battle Royale_, then it is still brilliant because Collins took a high-context work and translated it successfully into a low-context culture. Sure, we're missing the inherent cultural factor, but it is still a brilliant piece of work.

Now, if _Hunger Games_ was born from the myth of _Minotaur_, then good on Suzanne Collins. She adapted an old tale into a relevant theme. Nice.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Sometimes things really ARE ripped-off from other work. The case of the film "The Island" comes to mind. It was concept-for-concept, and almost scene for scene, a rip-off of the 70s movie "Parts: The Clonus Horror." The original filmmaker successfully sued. He had no idea the film had been remade without his knowledge, and probably wouldn't have since he was out of the business, but for one thing: those meddling Mystery Science Theater 3000 fans. "Parts" had been MSTed, you see, and was one of the most popular episodes of the show. When "The Island" hit theaters, several million people (me among them) said, "waaaait a minnit!" A few hundred of them contacted the "Parts" creator, and the rest is legal (and non-disclosed) history. 

That said, I don't think HG is a rip-off any more than the stories it's accused of ripping off. It's all in the writer's take on the situation.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

David Adams said:


> It doesn't matter if The Hunger Games is similar to another work with a vaguely similar premise or style of execution. Alien is Jaws in space. (Every Vampire YA Romance Story Ever) is (Every Vampire YA Romance Story Ever). Star Wars: A New Hope is Seven Samurai.
> 
> It's okay -- more than okay -- to draw upon other media for inspiration. Writers don't write in a vacuum, where ideas are spontaneously created fully formed; we are the products of our environment.


I have to totally agree. I'm sensitive to the "originality" issue, because I try hard to create original work. And yet, to date, I don't think reviewers have used the word "original" very frequently. The thing is, most people who aren't artists don't really care. They just want something GOOD, original or not.

I also acknowledge that despite my efforts, my work simply cannot be truly original. I've watched so many movies, read so many books, etc., that everything is in my subconscious.

Perhaps a better tack might be to suggest: "Hey, if you liked Hunger Games, you should also check out Battle Royale."


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

HAGrant said:


> I absolutely believe that if people were allowed to sell tickets to an event where reenactors could fire real bullets and kill each other, it would be a sellout.


*snort*


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## glennlangohr (Nov 15, 2011)

This is a great thread. It has me scratching my head. At first, I was like, thanks for pointing out the theft, but after seeing some of the other posts, it is time for some research. Hunger Games is going off, I'm a little jealous, and about to read it.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> Sometimes things really ARE ripped-off from other work. The case of the film "The Island" comes to mind. It was concept-for-concept, and almost scene for scene, a rip-off of the 70s movie "Parts: The Clonus Horror." The original filmmaker successfully sued. He had no idea the film had been remade without his knowledge, and probably wouldn't have since he was out of the business, but for one thing: those meddling Mystery Science Theater 3000 fans. "Parts" had been MSTed, you see, and was one of the most popular episodes of the show. When "The Island" hit theaters, several million people (me among them) said, "waaaait a minnit!" A few hundred of them contacted the "Parts" creator, and the rest is legal (and non-disclosed) history.
> 
> That said, I don't think HG is a rip-off any more than the stories it's accused of ripping off. It's all in the writer's take on the situation.


Interesting anecdote, especially the part the fans played in alerting the creator. This is sort of a sidenote: the last couple years on Amazon, I've noticed a number of customer reviews and/or discussions remarking on some authors' origins as fan fiction writers. Most of these remarks are fairly critical in tone; some of the reviewers have even accused authors of reworking their fan fiction (for example's sake, let's say Twilight fan fiction) into books that they have published and are now earning royalties from. I don't know quite what to think of this. Imitation of those who have gone before is often a necessary part of an artist's education--my mother's practice sketchbook has a pastel she copied from a Dali painting, for instance. Certainly it was nothing she ever intended to sell, just practice, but she needed that practice to hone her skills to eventually create sellable original works of her own. So some imitation is inevitable if you're going to learn a skill or craft. However, sometimes imitation can be carried too far. I guess that's why we have copyright laws to help us figure out the parameters of the gray area.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

purplepen79 said:


> Interesting anecdote, especially the part the fans played in alerting the creator. This is sort of a sidenote: the last couple years on Amazon, I've noticed a number of customer reviews and/or discussions remarking on some authors' origins as fan fiction writers. Most of these remarks are fairly critical in tone; some of the reviewers have even accused authors of reworking their fan fiction (for example's sake, let's say Twilight fan fiction) into books that they have published and are now earning royalties from. I don't know quite what to think of this. Imitation of those who have gone before is often a necessary part of an artist's education--my mother's practice sketchbook has a pastel she copied from a Dali painting, for instance. Certainly it was nothing she ever intended to sell, just practice, but she needed that practice to hone her skills to eventually create sellable original works of her own. So some imitation is inevitable if you're going to learn a skill or craft. However, sometimes imitation can be carried too far. I guess that's why we have copyright laws to help us figure out the parameters of the gray area.


I find it fascinating how culturally dependent tolerance of imitation is. For instance, meanwhile in Burma...








> Heather MacLachlan, a music professor at the University of Dayton, traveled to Myanmar a few years ago to study the country's traditional music, only to discover that most people were listening to pop. She writes about the phenomenon in her new book, Burma's Pop Music Industry: Creators, Distributors, Censors.
> 
> "A lot of Burmese people - and musicians especially - when they talk about what is a good song, what is a quality piece of work, what they say is, 'It's a song that sells a lot, a song that's commercially successful,' " MacLachlan says in an interview with NPR's Guy Raz. "That's how they judge artistic quality. So they know as well as everybody else that the best-selling music in the world comes out of the American and British pop-music industries. That's the music that they've very much taken to themselves, and it has become something that's really part of Burmese life since the early 1970s."


http://www.npr.org/2011/12/01/143014871/shakira-and-collective-souls-hits-with-a-burmese-twist

And, yea, great discussion in this thread.

B. [edited to fix link]


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## JimJ (Mar 3, 2009)

jackz4000 said:


> Also Stephen King gave Hunger Games a great review and never once mentioned any similarity to Running Man.
> 
> HG was written in 2006 and early 2007 and was first published in Sept 2008.
> 
> Battle Royale was made in 2000 and was at first shown domestically and then later in Asia and the UK. It did not hit US theaters until Dec 2011 and then only for 15 days. Now possible Collin's went to Japan, Asia or the UK to see it--but I doubt it.


I don't think HG was a rip off, but I was a huge fan of the film Battle Royale LONG before it's official US release. That being said, you pretty much had to be a big fan of horror/exploitation films to know about it in the states, or at least be a really hardcore fan of film in general. It's totally plausible that she had never heard of it.


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## Jorja Tabu (Feb 6, 2012)

Even if she did, there's _sooo _many stories that have similar elements, it's not like that seed alone was what germinated into _Hunger Games_.

I still think _The Lotter_y is the earliest incarnation of this sort of thing, but I am also sure somebody on KB can school me with an even earlier version.


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## Geemont (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm not sure "rip-off" is the right term.  I'd favor heavily barrowed and not very original.  How many science fiction novels are there with a few name changes could be an episode of Star Trek?  I'd say 100s.

That said, I've seen a list of similarities between the two books and they seem to have enough alike to be a little uncanny.  I have no proof, of course, but I'd bet Colllins did read Battle Royal and then wrote a book along those lines in the way authors write non-Star Trek Star Trek novels.  She had no way of knowing it would be mega blockbuster.  Not really a rip-off, just derivative.  No way she could admit it afterwards though.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

The idea of making people fight to death in an arena goes back thousands of years.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)




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## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

KateDanley said:


>


Not a Pulp Fiction fan, but I LOL'd.


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## cheriereich (Feb 12, 2011)

6aMonth said:


> Now, if _Hunger Games_ was born from the myth of _Minotaur_, then good on Suzanne Collins. She adapted an old tale into a relevant theme. Nice.


It wouldn't surprise me if _The Hunger Games_ came from the Minotaur myth. Suzanne Collins really loved her ancient Roman names, so knowing some Greek myths wouldn't surprise me at all.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I find it fascinating how culturally dependent tolerance of imitation is. For instance, meanwhile in Burma...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Huh . . . I find that equal parts interesting and equal parts sad. My father, who grew up on a small farm during the tail end of the Depression, had the mentality that something was worthless unless one could sell it. He was a gifted sculptor who got started by carving his own toys from wood; however, his engrained attitude that everything he did needed to turn a profit negatively affected the pure joy that most artists find in the act of creation.

Imitation can be a positive thing if people use it to learn their craft and put their own unique spin on an old concept. However, when imitation is tied to commercialism, I foresee too much derivation and not much originality, as entreprenuers and artists get scared to take a chance on something different lest it negatively impact the bottom line.


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

QuantumIguana said:


> The idea of making people fight to death in an arena goes back thousands of years.


Truth.

Honestly, we just need to accept that there is a subgenre called "gladiatorial thriller" and that these works all belong in it. They aren't ripping each other off anymore than Star Wars was ripping off Star Trek because they were set in outer space.

Rollerball
Hunger Games
Battle Royale
The Running Man
The Long Walk
Hunters of the Red Moon (yep, sci-fi did this a long time ago)
Come to think of it, Star Trek did it twice with "Gamemasters of Triskelion" and "Arena"

and that's just off the top of my head. I bet there are a lot more out there.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

purplepen79 said:


> Imitation can be a positive thing if people use it to learn their craft and put their own unique spin on an old concept. However, when imitation is tied to commercialism, I foresee too much derivation and not much originality, as entreprenuers and artists get scared to take a chance on something different lest it negatively impact the bottom line.


You might be on to something...






B.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Kate, you have won my Internets.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

I'd never heard of Battle Royale either. But I thought of the Greek myths when I read The Hunger Games. I don't know if I'd say it came solely from the Minotaur myth though. I don't recall those kids fighting each other


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## Maria Romana (Jun 7, 2010)

JerriLincoln said:


> A quote from The Guardian about Ursula K. LeGuin's novel, A Wizard of Earthsea:
> "Long before Harry Potter came along, Ursula Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea imagined what a school for wizards would be like."


When my daughters were young, I would read to them from the '70's book series _The Worst Witch_, about an awkward young girl who attends a boarding school for witches, complete with kindly headmaster and nasty potions teacher. When Harry Potter first came out, my automatic reaction was, "Well, that's just a copy of _Worst Witch_, only with boys!"

Yeah, there are only so many storylines out there...and as others have said, it's all about the execution, timing, luck, etc. That is why Jill Murphy is not a gazillionairess.

--Maria


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## flipside (Dec 7, 2011)

My views on the matter is best expressed from this blog entry but the US publisher of Battle Royale:

http://www.haikasoru.com/battle-royale-the-novel/battle-royale-vs-the-hunger-games/



> For fans of Battle Royale who feel a little put off by the success of The Hunger Games I can only suggest taking the opportunity to share your enthusiasm for Battle Royale with your friends and others who may not have seen the book yet, rather than getting angry at the success of the other book. We're doing just fine! Reading is not a death match!


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

Does anyone know what the author of "Battle Royale" thinks about "Hunger Games?"  (If he's aware of it at all.)

On a sidenote, every time the curtain goes up on "The Phantom of the Opera" Andrew Lloyd Weber has to pay the Giacomo Puccini estate royalties for "borrowing without authorization" a melody from the opera "La Fanciulla del West."  Puccini's estate successfully sued Lloyd Weber for copyright infringement.  Then there's "The Artist" debacle for using an extensive excerpt from Bernard Hermann's score for "Vertigo."  Of course, Hermann "lifted" several major themes in that score from Wagner, but Kim Novak doesn't seem to know that.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Perhaps you could say that both of them are a ripoff of Lord of the Flies, where the kids end up fighting each other.  I've seen Battle Royale (great film) but not read either book.  I was thinking to read them back to back to find out for myself.  While the concept of kids fighting kids is a pretty common one, I heard that some scenes of Hunger Games are a straight rip of BR, though I can't say myself until I've read them.

Chris Ward


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## Math (Oct 13, 2011)

I think one of the OP's points however, was that there was no mention of the original, or even a tip of the hat.

I know Star Wars was based heavily on Seven Samurai.  How do I know?  Because George Lucas himself pointed it out in interview. In fact - he virtually shouts it from the roof-tops. If it's ok for a film/story with success like that - then it should be done all the time when it's true.

Shakespeare's audiences would know previous influences, because they would have seen the plays by other writers/players and heard the original stories themselves as audiences. He satired events and rulers in living memory for goodness sakes.  You think Shakespeare gave a care about being 'original'?  I doubt it.

I really don't like it when credit isn't given when it's due. It isn't fair and plain wrong. Even if the story is written or displayed in a different way. That is what I call a poor excuse. It seems everyone credits Greek myths and Shakespeare... gee ... because they can't take you to court. Handy that.

Hollywood knows that people care about this fact - and how lazy it is... Rebooting something like Spiderman seems the laziest thing in the world -- but make a rip-off that is obviously based on it - that would be considered by audiences as even worse - and that's saying something.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Math said:


> I think one of the OP's points however, was that there was no mention of the original, or even a tip of the hat.


And I think the point many other posters are making is that it could be argued that the underlying theme is basically pretty ancient so it's a bit silly to name a single example of the 'genre' and say "it's taken from _this_ without attribution."


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## Math (Oct 13, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> And I think the point many other posters are making is that it could be argued that the underlying theme is basically pretty ancient so it's a bit silly to name a single example of the 'genre' and say "it's taken from _this_ without attribution."


This is so - but nevertheless, the OP seems to be saying there is a marked difference between 'genre' and 'plot line' and it is frustrating when this distinction is ignored.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

And there have been people familiar with both who have posted who don't think the similarities are quite so remarkable.  At some point I will read/watch them both and be able to make up my own mind.  I've read the Hunger Games, I've got Battle Royale on hold at my library, and the video is available for rental through Amazon Instant Video.  One of these days...

Betsy


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## penrefe (Nov 30, 2011)

While Collins wasn't aware of Battle Royale before/while writing her books (ideas are fickle and generic like that), I'm sure she knows about it now.

I love both the HG trilogy and the BR film (haven't read the novel yet, though I do have it), and while there are similarities in the concepts, the differences shine through in the execution.

Plus, there are no pot lids in _The Hunger Games_, therefore...not a rip-off, clearly.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

jackz4000 said:


> Also Stephen King gave Hunger Games a great review and never once mentioned any similarity to Running Man.


He did, however, note that there was sloppy authorship that young adults would not notice which gave the author a bit of a pass.

I tried to read the book and couldn't get more than a third of the way through it. I couldn't wrap my head around the notion that, after 75 years, the various districts were not training secret cabals of ninja to "volunteer" to go as tribute instead of sending helpless 12 year olds. The entire "well, the peacekeepers prevented training" is a line of BS. The original ninja were in fact chosen from the poor and trained in secret. Many of their weapons were makeshift weapons because farmers weren't allowed to carry swords. So they turned their farming impliments into weapons. The entire set-up of the world was very contrived to me because history has shown that, if there is one thing humans will ALWAYS figure out how to do, it is kill each other. Heck, remember from the old Karate Kid movie "wax on, wax off."  You can train and nobody even know you are training.

Yeah, if I'm in charge of a district, I totally am training a group of mini ninjas.


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## penrefe (Nov 30, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I couldn't wrap my head around the notion that, after 75 years, the various districts were not training secret cabals of ninja to "volunteer" to go as tribute instead of sending helpless 12 year olds.


They did. Well, sort of. Districts 1 & 2 had Careers: people who'd trained their entire lives just to volunteer in the Games, which is why the wealthier districts won most years.

Besides, you'd need to train a lot of kids in order to stand a decent chance of one of your ninjas being chosen =D


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

penrefe said:


> They did. Well, sort of. Districts 1 & 2 had Careers: people who'd trained their entire lives just to volunteer in the Games, which is why the wealthier districts won most years.
> 
> Besides, you'd need to train a lot of kids in order to stand a decent chance of one of your ninjas being chosen =D


But that is the point. You don't need to wait for one to be chosen. _They can volunteer._ Train a ninja core, you don't NEED to chose. They just volunteer. And the fact that two districts actually did just that proves my point about the plot hole. Wealth is not a requirement of ninja training.


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## penrefe (Nov 30, 2011)

Oh my God, I can't believe I just forgot what "volunteer" meant.

/facepalm

Yes, sorry, you raise a very valid point, Julie!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

penrefe said:


> Oh my God, I can't believe I just forgot what "volunteer" meant.
> 
> /facepalm
> 
> Yes, sorry, you raise a very valid point, *****!


  

The funny thing is, I have pointed this out to three other people who love the books, and all three of them gave me this "deer in headlights" stare for about 30 seconds before saying "Oh, I didn't think of that."

Now, granted, my observation may well say more about my thought processes than the book...


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

It would seem to me that if all the tributes suddenly had ninja skills and were volunteering that there would be retribution. I think they look the other way with the richer districts, because they are the richer districts, and I think there is the implication that they were okay with slaughtering poor people. 

I should say especially okay with it, since the whole concept is okay with slaughter.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

MichelleR said:


> It would seem to me that if all the tributes suddenly had ninja skills and were volunteering that there would be retribution. I think they look the other way with the richer districts, because they are the richer districts, and I think there is the implication that they were okay with slaughtering poor people.


So let's say I'm an evil overlord. Not too much of a stretch.  I set up this punishment system to prevent districts from rebelling again. Two of the districts, which are wealthy and have substantial resources, are publicly traning ninja to compete in the games. I also find out the poorer districts are training just to survive. I...

Waste my time punishing the poor districts, who even with a handful of ninja are no threat to my power. If I'm chaotic evil, maybe.

or

Crush the wealthy districts that have the resources and connections to actually build an army to overthrow me. Granted, this might hurt my overall economy, but they are the bigger threat.

or

infiltrate the poor districts with "help" to make sure no one district gets too powerful. Instigate hate between the districts so that they dispise each other more than me, while keeping myself above the fray. Particularly since more skilled fighters will make for better TV.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't think the worldbuilding was that complete or complex. She didn't get beyond simplistic "rich city/capitol opresses poor people and lives in decadent splendor and focuses on trivialities and cruelties, while others scramble for food"


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## RedGolum (Nov 2, 2011)

I have yet to see an original plot in the last 20 years.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So let's say I'm an evil overlord. Not too much of a stretch.












Okay, you have a point (or three.)


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2012)

Chad Winters said:


> I don't think the worldbuilding was that complete or complex. She didn't get beyond simplistic "rich city/capitol opresses poor people and lives in decadent splendor and focuses on trivialities and cruelties, while others scramble for food"


And I think King's original point in his review was that, for YA readers, that didn't matter. But it would trip up people like me who don't read books and say "those poor kids" but rather say "what inept villains."


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

I read this book, it was a total ripoff! Basically the story is boy meets girl. There was another book with that same story last year! It's a ripoff! Of course, it's not a ripoff, boy meets girl goes back thousands of years. The same with people fighting in arenas. Using an obvious idea that has been used many times before doesn't make it a ripoff. Everyone is influenced by what came before, total originality is about as rare as hen's teeth.

The same premises get used over and over again, with authors exploring the idea differently. If there could be only one version of an idea, few books would exist. If Hunger Games is a ripoff of anything, it owuld be a ripoff of Survivor, which itself isn't totally original.


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## Math (Oct 13, 2011)

QuantumIguana said:


> The same premises get used over and over again, with authors exploring the idea differently. If there could be only one version of an idea, few books would exist. If Hunger Games is a ripoff of anything, it owuld be a ripoff of Survivor, which itself isn't totally original.


Yes, but the original poster is saying the _plot _ is a ripoff - not the premise.

It is clear about the seven basic types of story - but it is when stories copy each other to such an extent that it causes controversy.

The topic heading is a little misleading - as one cannot steal a 'concept', but if one was to graph out a plot with particular incidents and outcomes, using particular types of character, in a particular environment -- and then overlay another story's plot... if there was a very similar trace, then this goes beyond what is reasonable.

The question that is I don't know how similar those lines would have to be - and it is a very subjective issue.

I would also say that when someone takes a 'concept' like 'kids unwillingly fighting in an arena' - that concept, through a natural progression, could lead the story along a certain path (the kids rebel, two fall in love, etc).

But if Battle Royale is very similar - it kind of lowers the kudos I had for the Hunger Games, because now - at worst it's a ripoff, and best it's 'in the box' thinking from the author - because it turned out too similar to Battle Royale.


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

Last night I finally sat down and read The Hunger Games, and I personally think it has more in common with The Running Man than it does Battle Royale.While it has broad similarities to Battle Royale (teenagers put in gladiatorial combat by dictatorial government) the tone and characters are much more reminiscent of Kings story.


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## woodNUFC (Aug 12, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So let's say I'm an evil overlord. Not too much of a stretch.  I set up this punishment system to prevent districts from rebelling again. Two of the districts, which are wealthy and have substantial resources, are publicly traning ninja to compete in the games. I also find out the poorer districts are training just to survive. I...
> 
> Waste my time punishing the poor districts, who even with a handful of ninja are no threat to my power. If I'm chaotic evil, maybe.
> 
> ...


The problem with this theory is that districts 1 and 2 were wealthy and taken care of - aka no reason to rebel. The Capitol only punishes those who are disloyal to it's policies. If you are a wealthy district, why risk losing everything to overthrow a government that is taking good care of you? It would be biting the hand that feeds you.

If you are poor, you have absolutely nothing to lose if the rebellion doesn't go your way. Basically, they are fighting for survival and have every reason to fight.

As the leader of said government it would only make sense to keep districts 1 and 2 happy and passive, while suppressing any signs of trouble in the lesser districts.

That's just my $.02 though.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2012)

woodNUFC said:


> The problem with this theory is that districts 1 and 2 were wealthy and taken care of - aka no reason to rebel. The Capitol only punishes those who are disloyal to it's policies. If you are a wealthy district, why risk losing everything to overthrow a government that is taking good care of you? It would be biting the hand that feeds you.


This is why you aren't an evil overlord. You don't understand how evil thinks.  

The wealthy are never satisfied with what they have. This is the nature of the beast. This is why we have millionaires claiming they don't "feel rich" and crying that they need MORE tax breaks while cutting social programs for the poor. It's why millionaires run ponzi schemes to steal money from other millionaires. It's why rich politicians dump millions of dollars of their own money to run for election for an office that pays $200,000 a year. Its why football players making $300,000,000 over five years hold out for new contracts to get an extra $10,000,000. If you think the wealthy would sit around being happy they are rich, you don't understand why so many countless wars have been waged by the rich on the backs of the poor. There is wealth, and then there is power. The wealthy crave power. You don't get to be wealthy without being a risk-taker. I don't know of any millionaires that are timid.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The wealthy crave power. You don't get to be wealthy without being a risk-taker. I don't know of any millionaires that are timid.


I've known a couple of millionaires in the past, though I haven't heard from either in a few years. Neither of them spent their time sitting in their secret lair petting their cat and dreaming of world domination. In fact, according to an article I read a few years ago the majority of American millionaires made their money from mundane careers like plumbing or running trailer parks.

A million just isn't much money these days. Billionaires are probably a different matter.


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## Kathelm (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree with an earlier post that this is a matter of genre, not plagiarism.

Besides, if "Hunger Games" is ripping off anything, it's Spartacus.  Someone gets screwed into killing for sport and goes on to lead a rebellion.    Do you think it's any coincidence that the Capital is meant to evoke ancient Rome?


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## lea_owens (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm half way through the second book now. I don't see it as a rip off of anything in particular, just an extension of that gladiator genre which is covered in many books and movies. It's pretty hard to find ANY book that doesn't somehow relate to another book or movie or concept. You can pretty much boil them all down to 'a stranger rides into town' or 'a person goes on a journey'. I am quite aware it is a book for YA readers as the psychological depth is not there, but it is a very entertaining read. I find the main problem being the fact that I don't believe human nature would allow for a system of 12 oppressed regions supporting a centre that is totally dependent on those 12 regions to exist for any length of time, particularly where the children are abused in such a way. I found the In Her Name (Omnibus Edition) trilogy satisfied my intelligence on all levels with the amazing scope of the civilisations created in the books, but The Hunger Games is an enjoyable read and I'd like to teach it in schools - as much as helping students find the shortcomings as having them enjoy the story - the 'strugglers' would just like the story, the questioning ones would enjoy discussions about why it would not be feasible, what is 'wrong' with it, how the oppression of the sectors could have been handled more successfully by the Capitol, etc.

To sum up: I don't see it as copying anything, just following the gladiatorial genre which has appeared many times before.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

lea_owens said:


> I find the main problem being the fact that I don't believe human nature would allow for a system of 12 oppressed regions supporting a centre that is totally dependent on those 12 regions to exist for any length of time, particularly where the children are abused in such a way.


Then again we wouldn't think North Korea would work either....


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

A good article on why The Hunger Games isn't a ripoff of Battle Royal.

http://movies.ign.com/articles/122/1221815p1.html#disqus_thread


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

And let's not forget this little jewel...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119642/plotsummary


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## patrickt (Aug 28, 2010)

I question whether there are new concepts.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

I don't think there are any really new concepts at all... new clothes perhaps, but not new concepts, or certainly very very rare.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Many of the people that complain about books having ripped off or stolen from other books are just not very widely read (no one here on the KB fits that description, obviously   ). They just don't realize how long these ideas have been around.

A classic case is all those Star Trek fans who don't realize that Gene Roddenberry didn't invent phasers, tricorders, the spaceship that can separate into two parts, the transporter, etc. He came up with new names for old concepts, but the ideas weren't original. That's not a slam against Roddenberry, it's darned difficult to come up with something completely original considering the millions of books that have been published.

Mike


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## jasonzc (Dec 23, 2011)

I would think that the only disappointment would be from King fans who lamented The Running Man movie, and dreamed often of The Long Walk as a film. Good for her, Suzanne Collins, otherwise. "Stolen" is obviously a bit harsh...


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## Tamara Rose Blodgett (Apr 1, 2011)

*


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## jasonzc (Dec 23, 2011)

Tamara Rose Blodgett said:


> I've never read BR but must say I've never heard of it... maybe Collins (author of Hunger Games) has not either? Pretty hard to copy what you haven't been exposed to. I'm not saying she hasn't heard/read/seen BR but maybe she has not, just saying.
> 
> I loved Hunger Games!


A great point. I never heard of it either.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

From what I could gather, much of the sound and fury is coming from those who are big fans of BR, as much of their discussion is about BR being better than Hunger Games. But which is better has no bearing on whether a work is a ripoff of another work. If people are really big fans of something, they are more likely to consider that work more original than it is. The similarities between BR and HG seem to be things that you would find in just about any movie about gladiators.


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## Storymagus (Jun 30, 2011)

I've seen Battle Royale and read The Hunger Games. True, there are similarities but to be honest how many book might unintentionally copy things. In my book Rephaim I wrote this whole scene and afterwards I realised I had written the scene in Star Wars where they board the Millennium Falcon; it's not that I stole it but we are all influenced by what we have read and there are only so many stories to write and to come up with a totally new one is rare. There are some cases, for example I think that some of the work by Neil Gaiman is pretty much as close as you can get to unique in children's literature; he is the exception rather than the norm. I wasn't disappointed with the Hunger Games and I had seen Battle Royale, Enjoy it for what it is folks.

Storymagus


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## Brad Murgen (Oct 17, 2011)

Ian Fraser said:


> I'm venting...
> 
> Long before 'Hunger Games,' there was 'Battle Royale' - a brutal and brilliant Japanese film that itself, owed nods to Stephen King's 'The Long Walk' and 'The Running Man.' Here's the plot of BR: (see if it sounds familiar)...
> 
> I think Hunger Games 'author' and her publisher should be ashamed. She says she 'never heard of Battle Royale' until she turned in her manuscript? R-i-g-h-t... And adding insult to injury, Hollywood reveals its creative bankruptcy by dumbing down and copying a far superior film, without a whisper of acknowledgment for its makers.


I don't find it much of a stretch that the author had never heard of Battle Royale. It's not exactly a mainstream book in the US and the film is even more obscure. I read it many years ago and while you havea similar premise in the core plot, they are quite different overall, particularly when you look at the Hunger Games trilogy as a whole. Might as well accuse Stephen King of plagiarism for writing 11/22/63, I mean time travel as a plot device to prevent the death of a famous person in the past has been done before, it's a total copy.


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## Paul Reid (Nov 18, 2010)

I did see Battle Royale and it sickened me. I'm going to avoid Hunger Games. Don't get me wrong, but the idea of sending kids out to massacre each other is wretched. No need for it. Call me Mister Boring, if you will, but surely there's a line between what's entertaining and what's just plain horrible.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Paul Reid said:


> Don't get me wrong, but the idea of sending kids out to massacre each other is wretched.


...which is the point.


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## Paul Reid (Nov 18, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> ...which is the point.


Good point!


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## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

Jan Strnad said:


> So, I'm good to go on my new trilogy, _The Thirsty Games_?
> 
> Good one ! But be sure you add sparkly vampires and maybe an orphan studying to be a wizard, for something truly original.


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## jasonzc (Dec 23, 2011)

BRONZEAGE said:


> Jan Strnad said:
> 
> 
> > So, I'm good to go on my new trilogy, _The Thirsty Games_?
> ...


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

Whether they are based on books or not, there are no sci-fi movies since the 80'd that weren't already done in episodes of the Twilight Zone or Star Trek. 

For example, Hunger Games is basically "The Gamesters of Triskellion."  Not that that one is an original story either, as someone pointed out, it's not too far from people gambling on the outcome of the Athenian "tribute youths" vs. the Minotaur.

Also has a lot of "Bread and Circuses" in it (televised Roman gladiatorial games with slaves forced to fight).  

Between Serling and Roddenbury, if you look hard enough you can find an antecedent to everything in sci-fi movies. It's actually a fun game to play.  Think of a movie and find the the old episode that already did it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Between Serling and Roddenbury, if you look hard enough you can find an antecedent to everything in sci-fi movies. It's actually a fun game to play. Think of a movie and find the the old episode that already did it.


Sounds like a variation of the Kevin Bacon game. . . . .


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Bob Mayer said:


> Anyway. This argument could be made about any book or movie and thus is futile.


Mostly true, I think. But does plagiarism never exist? Is it nothing? There was a case a few years ago in which a man rewrote a -- was it Somerset Maugham? --story point by point, only updated the language a little bit, and said, when it was discovered, defended himself as creating a new "genre" or something. He was eviscerated by critics, and rightly so. Anybody remember this?


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> Can't agree with the OP's venting at all. I don't think Collins should be ashamed of anything and I'm sure she hadn't seen Battle Royale because I haven't seen it either and know little about it. In fact I'm sure billions of people haven't seen it and know little to nothing about it. I've read The Running Man, but too different.
> 
> The concept of a corrupt totalitarian government demanding children as tribute is an old story dating back to prehistory I'm sure. Collin's just had a different way to tell it which appealed to readers. Most good stories are rooted in the mythic. Those newspapers the OP cited are just trying to be controversial to sell newspapers.


Why does it follow that because you haven't seen Battle Royale, Suzanne Collins hasn't seen it?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Jon Olson said:


> Why does it follow that because you haven't seen Battle Royale, Suzanne Collins hasn't seen it?


I think his point is that it's not as universally known as seemed to be assumed in the OP. 

For the record, I also had never heard of it.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

"Simpsons did it" - Butters from South park to all ideas


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

mom133d (aka Liz) said:


> "Simpsons did it" - Butters from South park to all ideas


After 25 season... probably true.


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Sounds like a variation of the Kevin Bacon game. . . . .


Sort of, yeah. But it's really just one degree. Unless you try to count the movies in between. Like this:

Evil doll named Chucky comes to life in "Childsplay" in the 80's AFTER ventriloquist dummy comes life (and coincidentally is evil) in the 70's in "Magic" AFTER 1964's Twlight Zone episode "Caesar and Me" - (from imdb) "When ventriloquist Jonathan West can not find any work his dummy Caesar suggests he turn to robbery." WHich also comes AFTER 1962 Zone episode "The Dummy" (from imdb) "Ventriloquist Jerry Etherson is convinced that his dummy, Willie, is alive and evil. He locks Willie in a trunk and makes plans for a new act with a new dummy. Too bad he didn't clear those plans with Willie first."

And yes, that is kind of fun.


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Jon Olson said:


> Mostly true, I think. But does plagiarism never exist? Is it nothing? There was a case a few years ago in which a man rewrote a -- was it Somerset Maugham? --story point by point, only updated the language a little bit, and said, when it was discovered, defended himself as creating a new "genre" or something. He was eviscerated by critics, and rightly so. Anybody remember this?


Hadn't heard of it. But when I Googled 'Somerset Maugham plagiarism' I discovered that Crowley (!) accused Maugham of plagiarizing 'The Magician.'

Mishima wrote his own versions of both 'Romeo and Juliet' and 'Lady Chatterly's Lover.' More loving tribute, I think, than plagiarism.

Halfway through The Lion King - when our hero was in exile with his two friends - I realized that the weasel and the warthog were Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern and that I was watching Disney's version of 'Hamlet.'


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

Tamara Rose Blodgett said:


> I've never read BR but must say I've never heard of it... maybe Collins (author of Hunger Games) has not either? Pretty hard to copy what you haven't been exposed to. I'm not saying she hasn't heard/read/seen BR but maybe she has not, just saying.
> 
> I loved Hunger Games!


Agreed. I'm almost done reading Hunger Games and love it.


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## Raquel Lyon (Mar 3, 2012)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> Sometimes things really ARE ripped-off from other work. The case of the film "The Island" comes to mind. It was concept-for-concept, and almost scene for scene, a rip-off of the 70s movie "Parts: The Clonus Horror." The original filmmaker successfully sued. He had no idea the film had been remade without his knowledge, and probably wouldn't have since he was out of the business, but for one thing: those meddling Mystery Science Theater 3000 fans. "Parts" had been MSTed, you see, and was one of the most popular episodes of the show. When "The Island" hit theaters, several million people (me among them) said, "waaaait a minnit!" A few hundred of them contacted the "Parts" creator, and the rest is legal (and non-disclosed) history.
> 
> That said, I don't think HG is a rip-off any more than the stories it's accused of ripping off. It's all in the writer's take on the situation.


I've literally just finished watching 'Never Let Me Go' and I couldn't stop thinking of 'The Island' all the way through!


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

I recently heard the phrase:  Every story is the same thing, it is either someone going on a journey or a stranger comes to town.  So, really, are there any new concepts?


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## s0nicfreak (Jun 10, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> He did, however, note that there was sloppy authorship that young adults would not notice which gave the author a bit of a pass.
> 
> I tried to read the book and couldn't get more than a third of the way through it. I couldn't wrap my head around the notion that, after 75 years, the various districts were not training secret cabals of ninja to "volunteer" to go as tribute instead of sending helpless 12 year olds. The entire "well, the peacekeepers prevented training" is a line of BS. The original ninja were in fact chosen from the poor and trained in secret. Many of their weapons were makeshift weapons because farmers weren't allowed to carry swords. So they turned their farming impliments into weapons. The entire set-up of the world was very contrived to me because history has shown that, if there is one thing humans will ALWAYS figure out how to do, it is kill each other. Heck, remember from the old Karate Kid movie "wax on, wax off."  You can train and nobody even know you are training.
> 
> Yeah, if I'm in charge of a district, I totally am training a group of mini ninjas.


My (first) issue with it was that the teens in the poor districts were treated like the teens of today in America - like children - instead of like the teens of, say, 50 years ago, and the teens in third world countries - more like adults. If you know you have a high chance of dying at 12, and that's if you manage to not starve to death by then, you'd grow up quick.



Doomed Muse said:


> I've read Battle Royale and The Hunger Games. Anyone who really thinks they have that much to do with each other other than the whole "gladiatorial teenagers" thing clearly hasn't really read them. Sure, the idea in both books isn't a brand new one, but the worlds and characters are totally different and the actual details of the plots are also VERY different. Saying they are the same would be like saying peanut butter and apple butter are the same. Sure, both pastes made out of stuff that you can put on toast, but the ingredients and execution are so different that anyone who tasted both would just look at you like you're crazy if you tried to say they were exactly the same.


I would not say they're the same, but I would say that it is highly possible that someone tasted peanut butter or jam and thought "this is great... what else can I do this with?" Or someone was heating apple sauce and cooked it too long, and decided to use it as butter. I would not believe that someone thought up the concept of apple butter out of the blue; it was inspired by something. And since it has similarities to other things, I would think it was inspired by those other things.

I've read both Battle Royale (I'm not even big on the genre and I heard of it) and The Hunger Games. I wouldn't be surprised if the truth was that Collins saw/read Battle Royale, changed the setting, and made it a little more acceptable to western audiences, while thinking Battle Royale was so little-known to westerners that it wouldn't be noticed. Yes, there's a lot different; but there are several similarities, and it's a pretty big coincidence that she hasn't heard of it at all (if that's true). Though maybe she was inspired by something else inspired by Battle Royale.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. Nothing is original. We live in a world where a fanfiction can become a best-selling book, and I think that's great. But I think inspirations should be acknowledged, and I very much doubt Collins has spent her life reading nothing but Greek myths.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

not so big a coincidence that she never heard of Battle Royale. I read all the time and never heard of it until this whole brouhaha.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

^^^^^what she said.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2012)

I haven't seen/heard of Battle Royale. I guess for me I'd want to know which has better characters lol. When heard of hunger games, I did say to my husband, "It's like the teen version of Death Race or Gamer.

Also it seems in Battle Royale it's about kids disobedience ; hunger games isn't it about some war and it's supposed to be a reminder of hope or something?

I haven't read hunger games yet, but it's on my kindle now. After I read this other 100 or so books...


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## s0nicfreak (Jun 10, 2010)

BTackitt said:


> not so big a coincidence that she never heard of Battle Royale. I read all the time and never heard of it until this whole brouhaha.


But did you write a book of that genre that has several similarities?


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## Patrick Skelton (Jan 7, 2011)

I happen to really enjoy all of the stories mentioned.  The differences outweigh the similarities.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

People battling to the death in arenas is an idea that is thousands of years old. If he says she hadn't heard of Battle Royale, I'll take her word for it, it is not at all implausible, there are many works with similar themes.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

yeah, she said she based it on the old Greek/Roman myth of the minotaur. I can see that.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

s0nicfreak said:


> I've read both Battle Royale (I'm not even big on the genre and I heard of it) and The Hunger Games. I wouldn't be surprised if the truth was that Collins saw/read Battle Royale, changed the setting, and made it a little more acceptable to western audiences, while thinking Battle Royale was so little-known to westerners that it wouldn't be noticed. Yes, there's a lot different; but there are several similarities, and it's a pretty big coincidence that she hasn't heard of it at all (if that's true). Though maybe she was inspired by something else inspired by Battle Royale.


That's possible. I think it's equally possible that, like me & some others here, she'd never seen or heard of *Battle Royale* - she's said she never heard of *BR* before she turned *The Hunger Games* in to her publisher. Perhaps she was inspired by something that *Battle Royale* was also inspired by - like gladiators and *Lord of the Flies* and *Spartacus* and all the other "predecessors" mentioned here. Or perhaps what she said in this interview is actually true (what a concept): http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6590063.html

Side note: And I love the fact that she's written some episodes of Wow! Wow! Wubbzy! I'll have to check for those now when my grandkids are watching.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Well, this discussion DID make me put _Battle Royale_ on hold from our library (I had never heard of it before this discussion) and I picked it up today.

I don't read many paper *shudder* books anymore, I'll let you know....

Betsy


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

Point 1: It is neither illegal nor immoral to base a story on a pre-existing concept. Plagiarism is about stealing words and specific details, not about playing in the same conceptual sandbox. (I believe the _Writing Excuses_ podcast actually did an entire episode about how to 'steal' other authors ideas and get away with it. Their point was that all fiction is inspired by something that came before, and that it's important to be conciously aware of this process.)

Point 2: I don't really have a Point 2. Point 1 pretty much says it all.

I'm definitely looking forward to hearing Betsy's thoughts after reading _Battle Royale_, though.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

When I was at Target yesterday, Battle Royale was right next to the Hunger Games books.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

MichelleR said:


> When I was at Target yesterday, Battle Royale was right next to the Hunger Games books.


Oh, man. That's like putting a copy of _Justine_ next to _The Devil Wears Prada_. Lolz.

















B.


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## LCLarson (Jan 3, 2012)

Gosh, if you're worried about 'stolen concepts' go and read some erotica books... same thing, over and over and over. lol


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

I hadn't heard of Battle Royale until this year. Not like it was popular in the US at all. I doubt she heard of it either. Stories about kids and weapons and tyrannical rulers go way back.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Here's a cool tidbit.

_"Quentin Tarantino stated, in an interview, that he was told by Kinji Fukasaku [director] that when Koushun Takami [author] wrote the lighthouse scene of the original novel, Takami was influenced by the final stand-off in Quentin Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs (which was itself influenced by Ringo Lam's earlier Hong Kong film City on Fire). In turn, the tavern scene in Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds may have been influenced by the lighthouse scene in Battle Royale."_

Interestingly, _Battle Royale_ is Quentin Tarantino's favorite film of all time. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0WlHbBhdc

B.


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## Justin_AC (Apr 28, 2012)

Here is basically what BR and HG have in common:

Teens fighting to the death because their government says so and filming it reality TV style.

Everything beyond that is different.  HG is more than different enough to stand on its own.  

Here's something else!

A futuristic, Utopian society exists where the population must take pills to curb their emotions and desires.

That's for the book "The Giver" and the film "Equilibrium."  You could not get more different than that.

Have another:

A social misfit and outcast decides to become a superhero after seeing society fall apart around him, and eventually takes on the mafia with the help of his sidekick.

That one's for the films "Blankman" and "Kick-Ass."

One more for the road:

After falling asleep, several strangers wake up to find that the world around them has dramatically changed.  They must contend with each other, monsters, and time itself, or they'll die.

That one is for "The Langoliers," a novella and TV mini-series by Stephen King and "King of Thorn," a Japanese manga and animated film.

Are you seeing a pattern here?  There really are no new story ideas, only ways to present them, ways to add more detail, ways to change the flavor.


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## Joseph_Evans (Jul 24, 2011)

I just watched the film version of Battle Royale for the first time in years and I have to say I do find it really hard to believe that Suzanne Collins had never heard of it. I mean, even down to the detail of the ex-player who won last year's event and is now a drunk . . .


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## lea_owens (Dec 5, 2011)

Well, I hadn't seen or heard of Battle Royale before this thread. I would have thought there were limited possibilities for what happens to previous winners... either they'll commit suicide or go mad or be locked up because they go on killing others or, if they had any decent emotions left, they would cope by trying to lose the memories in alcohol and drugs. I find it unlikely that a 'previous winner' would just go on functioning as a normal member of the community. So, I think if you wanted to use a previous winner as a character, you'd have to choose one of those scenarios for him, and the only one likely to work if you want the character to interact with the others is the drunk/drugged one. I wouldn't have thought it was a copied idea so much as a logical one.


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## s0nicfreak (Jun 10, 2010)

I would think at some point during the battle you would stop seeing them as other humans, as living things at all... you don't see people retired from meat factories all ending up being alcoholics. They have to do much worse than killing things that can defend themselves in order to save their own lives, they are killing animals that can do nothing just for money, but they stop seeing what they're killing as living things. Yet they can still have and love pets... So I don't really see it as logical that previous winners would become alcoholics.



Meemo said:


> That's possible. I think it's equally possible that, like me & some others here, she'd never seen or heard of *Battle Royale* - she's said she never heard of *BR* before she turned *The Hunger Games* in to her publisher. Perhaps she was inspired by something that *Battle Royale* was also inspired by - like gladiators and *Lord of the Flies* and *Spartacus* and all the other "predecessors" mentioned here. Or perhaps what she said in this interview is actually true (what a concept): http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6590063.html


*Using* random bolds sure *is* fun, isn't it? We're *going* in circles n*ow*. Yes it is po*ssi*ble she told the truth; it is ju*st a*s possible that she didn't*. *


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

s0nicfreak said:


> *Using* random bolds sure *is* fun, isn't it? We're *going* in circles n*ow*. Yes it is po*ssi*ble she told the truth; it is ju*st a*s possible that she didn't*. *


They weren't random - they were all titles. I'm old school that way  although really I should've underlined instead if I were really being old-school.

And I guess it depends on your outlook on life in a way, and on people - I'm a benefit-of-the-doubt person - I tend to believe someone until they're proven wrong. Unless it's a journalist or a politician - I've seen enough of them proven wrong and/or caught lying that I'm pretty jaded there.


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## Craig Halloran (May 15, 2012)

There is nothing new under the sun.

It's a shame that some readers are always hoping for something new, but that is hard to do. The stories are different though, no matter what the topic, as it is from a new writers point of view. If a different author writes a story about someone else's character, their will be changes you like and don't like. Maybe a perspective you have never seen before. 

I didn't read the book Hunger Games, but I will. The movie however, was lacking. I just think that readers got hooked on a really good writers skills. She told the story well. As for the Running Man and Battle Royal, they just got a few a bunch of new fans because people like this kind of story. I do. 

How many cop and detective and law and order shows are really different. It's just new characters, you like or don't like, in a similar situation.


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## StephSweeney (May 16, 2012)

I think it's very plausible that Suzanne Collins hadn't heard of Battle Royale.  I hadn't.  When people started complaining that The Hunger Games ripped it off, I watched it.  Terrible film, in my opinion.  Not that I think The Hunger Games is some kind of masterpiece, but BR, to me, was hard to sit through.

Yes, Stephen King's The Running Man and The Long Walk both ran with the concept of people being pitted against each other in an everyone-dies-except-the-winner contest.  So Stephen King fans should be just as mad at Battle Royale fans as Battle Royale fans are at The Hunger Games fans.  The similarities in the two stories are thin as paper.

And just think about how pissed off the Roman Republic would be right now if they knew all these people were ripping off their gladiator contests.


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## Guest (May 23, 2012)

I was skeptical until we reviewed Battle Royale on High-Def Digest, then I was amazed she had gotten away with it!


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## Jen Black (Oct 17, 2011)

I hadn't heard of Battle Royale either but reading the plot line on wikipedia, I thought there was enough difference to Hunger Games to merit Collin's idea of gladatorial combat to come through. I don't suppose Japanese films are routinely released in the US or Europe, so I'm not surprised I hadn't heard of it. Romances and thrillers often use the same basic plots, but they are not criticised for it. It's the way the story is told that matters.
Jen


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

CaedemMarquez said:


> Methinks that it is 5:30 am and I have yet to fall asleep. When I awake, this thread will have definitely grown in size and passion.
> 
> Caedem


I knew from the title that this would be a long thread &#8230; not having read any of it, I'll add a few pennies.

I haven't read Hunger Games, but my son and his friends have read the series maybe three or four times. When he explained the story to me, I mentioned that I thought the premise sounded a lot like some other stories. That turned him on to Stephen King's Running Man and Long Walk.

I think the story is not unique, but the way it is being delivered in the Hunger Game series, is unique. How else can you explain the success.

Think of chocolate chip cookies. That idea of the cookie has been around forever, but some can just make a better cookie.


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## Ashlynn_Monroe (May 24, 2012)

I loved the first book in the Hunger Games trilogy...the other two left me feeling a bit let down.  Original or not, loved it sooooooo (enough o's for you) much!  I agree the concept of human brutality for entertainment is nothing new, but I didn't feel it was a blatant rip off of anything specific.


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## TouchedByaKindle (May 4, 2012)

Well Battle Royale occurs in a school wherelse Hunger Games occur in a dystopian future but still, the concept is similar.

I love the Hunger Games trilogy though, and the last book, when Primrose Aberdeen died, just made me put down the book and stop reading for almost a week.


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## Ashlynn_Monroe (May 24, 2012)

TouchedByaKindle said:


> Well Battle Royale occurs in a school wherelse Hunger Games occur in a dystopian future but still, the concept is similar.
> 
> I love the Hunger Games trilogy though, and the last book, when Primrose Aberdeen died, just made me put down the book and stop reading for almost a week.


I actually cried tears...my family thought I was crazy!


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

StephSweeney said:


> I think it's very plausible that Suzanne Collins hadn't heard of Battle Royale. I hadn't. When people started complaining that The Hunger Games ripped it off, I watched it. Terrible film, in my opinion. Not that I think The Hunger Games is some kind of masterpiece, but BR, to me, was hard to sit through.
> 
> Yes, Stephen King's The Running Man and The Long Walk both ran with the concept of people being pitted against each other in an everyone-dies-except-the-winner contest. So Stephen King fans should be just as mad at Battle Royale fans as Battle Royale fans are at The Hunger Games fans. The similarities in the two stories are thin as paper.
> 
> And just think about how p*ssed off the Roman Republic would be right now if they knew all these people were ripping off their gladiator contests.


And the Romans didn't even invent people fighting for the entertainment of others! Star Trek the Original Series did two episodes of gladiators fighting for the amusement of others. One of these episodes, "Bread and Circuses" had the fights televised. It's an old idea done hundreds of times at the very least.


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## morantis (May 8, 2012)

The similarities are pretty obscure. I can use the same method you used to make claims against hundreds of books or films. The fact is that within the confines of human experience and society you can only combine elements in such a way so many times. The idea is that the characters or the experiences will differ enough that it can stand alone. Setting is one thing, to expand the setting and environment for a film you can only go so far before the environment causes the viewers to feel too disconnected from the characters and lose interest. Just within the dystopian realm see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dystopian_films. The only two similarities between the two films that you have brought up are the setting and the arena battles scenario. So, therefore, if I go through each of these films and find the ones that contain an arena style battle for some prize or freedom, then I will have found stolen content.

Glad you were not around during the classical era, as many of those themes were used and reused.


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## morantis (May 8, 2012)

Perhaps we were a little hard on this person and they have moved to Las Vegas to drink themselves to death.  Oh wait, they can't do that, it would be a stolen idea!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm sure it has been said, but I am impelled to repeat it:

_There is no such thing as a stolen concept._

Concepts do no belong to one person and cannot be copyrighted. The same stories have been repeated for thousands of years. It is all in the execution, not the concept.


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## Jen Black (Oct 17, 2011)

>There is no such thing as a stolen concept.

I like that line - it says it all!
Jen


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## Harry Shannon (Jul 30, 2010)

As others have noted, everyone gets inspiration from those who have gone before. Running Man, The Long Walk, The Lord of Flies, Battle Royale, etc., it's a long list and unfair to Collins to call it stolen. Battle Royale has a number of similarities, but one could argue it was stolen from King, who probably borrowed from Golding. My daughter loved the series and anything that keeps her reading and thinking is okay by me.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Because of this thread, I borrowed Battle Royale from the library and (pun intended) fought my way through it. Judging it on its own merits, it had a lot of repetition but moved along well enough... I didn't see any more similarities between _Battle Royale_ and _The Hunger Games_ than I do between any two police procedurals or two vampire novels or... So I'm willing to take the author at her word. I did enjoy _The Hunger Games_ trilogy; the first one was my favorite.

Betsy


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## SidneyW (Aug 6, 2010)

I think Collins took a core concept and put her own stamp on the concept, exploring her own set of themes. "The Most Dangerous Game" came before Hunger Games or Battle Royale, then there's Robert Sheckley's The Seventh Victim that became the film The 10th Victim and subsequently grew into a trilogy of novels The 10th Victim, Victim Prime and Hunter/Victim. There's a great adaptation of Sheckley's first story in an X-Minus One episode. That episode and more can be found here. http://archive.org/details/OTRR_X_Minus_One_Singles


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## Katie Salidas (Mar 21, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> *There is no such thing as a stolen concept.*


Exactly. There is nothing _new_ out there. Everything has been done in some way before. Each author finds a way to put their own spin on each concept and that's what makes their stories unique.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

I've been thinking a lot about this...
I just finished a great Space Opera Series from the 80's and 90s that I always meant to get around to.

In one way of looking at this, there were some blatant Star Wars ripoffs. 
--Freighter captain with a shady reputation and the freighter is armed with dorsal and ventral guns and outsized engines
--good Adepts who feel the underlying forces in the Universe and wield magic like powers
--Bad Mages who twist the underlying forces and are out to conquer the galaxy

But the story was great, and I enjoyed it very much and am glad she wrote it like she did. Sure it wasn't completely original but it was fun. Part of it was like another story in a universe that was almost the one you loved in Star Wars.

But the divergences were important too, the frieghter captain was a noble birthed female running from her birthright and most of her shady reputation was a cover. (Not a spoiler)
Some of the changes of the good and bad jedi, I mean Mages...would be spoilers, but her spin was fun and made a good story.

In the end, that's the point for me..was it a good story and did I enjoy reading it. 
If the the "ripoff rules" were so strict that this series was not made, I would be less happy


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## Alpha72 (May 9, 2012)

The concept might be stolen, but the story was still well told, at least from my point of view.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

Katie Salidas said:


> Exactly. There is nothing _new_ out there. Everything has been done in some way before. Each author finds a way to put their own spin on each concept and that's what makes their stories unique.


The problem gets to be that some people think their favorite work invented the idea, and then when they see someone else doing something similar, they yell "ripoff!" Battle Royale was no more original than Hunger Games. It's sort of like if I make chocolate chip cookies, and someone complains that I ripped off their original recipe, when really we're both using the recipe from a very old cookbook.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

An observation from Battle Royale's wiki:

_The town from which the ill-fated students in Battle Royale hail is called Shiroiwa, which translates as "Castle Rock", a possible reference to Stephen King as well as Lord of the Flies._

I think we're done now. 

B.


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## Al Stone (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm an avid reader, and as far as I can tell, there are no original ideas. How you choose to tell a story ... now, that's a different matter. I did think of Battle Royale when I was reading The Hunger Games, but I also thought of other books at the same time. I personally didn't love the books, but I have to give her credit. She's selling a hell of a lot of books.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

QuantumIguana said:


> The problem gets to be that some people think their favorite work invented the idea, and then when they see someone else doing something similar, they yell "ripoff!" Battle Royale was no more original than Hunger Games. It's sort of like if I make chocolate chip cookies, and someone complains that I ripped off their original recipe, when really we're both using the recipe from a very old cookbook.


Reminds of Phoebe on _Friends_ who had her grandmother's secret chocolate chip recipe. . . .turns out it was the one on the back of the Tollhouse Morsels bag.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

People tend to like the thing they discovered first, and find it to be the better thing, and be perturbed that other people like a similar (but, of course, inferior) thing.


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