# B&N Pubit --- Free Sample - disappeared for some erotic Authors - censorship?



## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

I noticed yesterday that the ability to download a free sample of any of my books on B&N is gone. After looking a little more on B&N, I discovered that this "Download Sample" button has also disappeared from other erotic romance/erotica authors, namely Selena Kitt, Meg Harris, Jess C Scott, and there might be more.

Has anybody noticed this?

I've contacted support already, but no answer to my emails so far, and phone support was just palming me off to a FAQ recorded phone line.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

I read somewhere that PubIt is being glitchy with uploads. People are uploading books and the sample is not available, and the covers aren't showing. Maybe it's something to do with that? I know I uploaded a book last night and it shows it's for sale...and it has no cover. :/


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

jillmyles said:


> I read somewhere that PubIt is being glitchy with uploads. People are uploading books and the sample is not available, and the covers aren't showing. Maybe it's something to do with that? I know I uploaded a book last night and it shows it's for sale...and it has no cover. :/


I doubt that it's that - my books have been up for months, and the sample feature worked before. Only last week, I downloaded my own sample to check on something.


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## altworld (Mar 11, 2010)

Well the arguement will be that they have to guarentee that the readers of Erotica are of age to read it, therefore the only way to verify this is through a valid credit card address. Its just business being business, and not unexpected that they are doing this for adult erotic books.
Arigato,
Nick Davis


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

altworld said:


> Well the arguement will be that they have to guarentee that the readers of Erotica are of age to read it, therefore the only way to verify this is through a valid credit card address. Its just business being business, and not unexpected that they are doing this for adult erotic books.
> Arigato,
> Nick Davis


Then why aren't they doing it to all erotic romance / erotica authors? There are plenty, whose sampling still works: Lora Leigh, Terri Wolffe, Selena Blake, Maya Banks, Shirl Anders ---- my writing is certainly not any more explicit than Lora Leigh's and definitely tamer than Maya Banks'.


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

Definitely strange, Tina. It does seem to be everything by certain authors, including things I know I've downloaded samples of before. Let us know what you find out.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Then why aren't they doing it to all erotic romance / erotica authors? "_

If they do indeed have a policy of removing erotica samples, they will probably try to avoid actually looking at books. That's not efficient enough. They will use whatever tags and sorting abilities they have to identify books, then act on the selection. Because of the nature of these methods, they will miss things.

They would take the same approach if looking for any others set of books.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Yes, but didn't keywords and tags disappear a few weeks ago on existing published books and people had to go back in and set them up again? I still think it's a system glitch. At least, I'm hoping.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Tina Folsom said:


> Then why aren't they doing it to all erotic romance / erotica authors? There are plenty, whose sampling still works: Lora Leigh, Terri Wolffe, Selena Blake, Maya Banks, Shirl Anders ---- my writing is certainly not any more explicit than Lora Leigh's and definitely tamer than Maya Banks'.


That seems odd if it is censorship, that they would skip novels that are as explicit or more so. Maybe it is just a glitch, but I can agree it's a weird one.

Hope it all gets worked out for you!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Can you actually still download the books?  Someone on the Help board said that they tried to download a book with the sample missing, and the book couldn't be downloaded either.

My books are extremely vanilla compared to, say, Lora Leigh, so for them to remove the sample feature on mine and not others is just odd.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

I just purchased one of my books, and despite the sample missing, I was able to buy the book and download it on my Nook.

something it definitely up with B&N --- if it's another glitch, then it's an odd one. If it's censorship, then it really stinks.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Thank you for checking, Tina.  I'm going to agree with Nick and guess that they're doing it to avoid samples being downloaded by minors.  Which sucks, and which will probably impact our sales adversely, but there's probably not much to be done about it, sadly.  I've noticed my sales going down in the past day, and I imagine this is the reason-- I don't buy books if I can't check out a sample, either.  Still, I don't think it can be called censorship if the book is still available for purchase.

It would be nice if B&N would ever TELL anyone what they were doing, but they don't seem to be a communicative company.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Yes, but didn't keywords and tags disappear a few weeks ago on existing published books and people had to go back in and set them up again? I still think it's a system glitch. At least, I'm hoping."_

It is extremely unlikely a firm would purge their own system of keywords and tags for this kind of system. They may limit users, but they will not limit their own abilities to manage the database.

_"It would be nice if B&N would ever TELL anyone what they were doing, but they don't seem to be a communicative company."_

If they have been letting kids download erotica samples, I doubt they want to make that very public. From their perspective, this is something they fix quietly.


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## Debbiek (Aug 7, 2010)

Yes my erotic books samples are gone the others are not.


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## altworld (Mar 11, 2010)

Tina Folsom said:


> Then why aren't they doing it to all erotic romance / erotica authors? There are plenty, whose sampling still works: Lora Leigh, Terri Wolffe, Selena Blake, Maya Banks, Shirl Anders ---- my writing is certainly not any more explicit than Lora Leigh's and definitely tamer than Maya Banks'.


You will have to contact B&N to find out, all I presented was a possible hypthetical reason why Erotic works are being locked down at the sample level, and therefore cannot answer your question. Sorry.
Arigato,
Nick Davis


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Maybe it depends on the tagging? Like what if Berkley has Lora Leigh tagged as paranormal rather than erotic, or Maya Banks as contemporary rather than erotic. That might explain why some stuff is stripped and some is not.

I do wish B&N was more communicative about this sort of thing. This just seems like a really terrible idea.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Maybe it depends on the tagging? Like what if Berkley has Lora Leigh tagged as paranormal rather than erotic, or Maya Banks as contemporary rather than erotic. That might explain why some stuff is stripped and some is not.


Some of what was de-sampled was clearly marked "erotica" in the title, which is no doubt why it was nailed first. (One author quickly switched hers to "contemporary romance," which hopefully will keep her book from having the sample removed.) I imagine you're right, and it will either take longer to get to the trad published erotica, or they just won't bother unless a reader complains. My guess is that we PubIt authors are victims of our own success-- there have been so many erotica titles in the PubIt top fifty that it was inevitable that some readers would begin complaining about it.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> It wouldn't surprise me that they did this to drop sales of erotica titles...


I don't think that's their motivation, precisely. They've made thousands upon thousands of dollars from PubIt erotica sales since Christmas; all other things being equal, I'm sure they'd be perfectly happy to keep making all that money. But there's an opposing force here-- namely, when you get a lot of erotica titles on the bestseller list (and there have been a _ton _of erotica titles there), you will get lots and lots of complaints from readers who are offended by it. Taking off the free sample button to restrict minors' access to it seems like a reasonable first step from their point of view. Of course, the people who complain about erotica are not going to be placated by that, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the next step was to remove erotica from the site entirely-- self-pubbed erotica, that is; they're not going to get rid of anything from a major publisher.

Time for me to start submitting to publishers again, I guess. Oh joy.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Are the other authors who still have samples up self pubbed?


I saw one self-pubbed author whose sample was still up. The rest all seem to have had theirs removed, as far as I saw.



> ...and some indie authors cross a line and/or have gotten customer complaints?


Cross what line? My erotic romances are generally a whole lot tamer than what you'd find from EC, or even one of the trad publishing lines that specialize in erotic romance. But their samples have been removed.

But yes, I'm sure they've gotten complaints. As I said, when you have a whole bunch of erotica grouped on one bestseller list, it's inevitable that some readers will complain. I do think it's because the erotica has been so successful there that it's being targeted now. One of mine has been in the top ten off and on for quite a while, so it was bound to catch flack eventually.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> ...just wondering if some of the other books you mention have been protected by their trad-pub status, and they did some kind of wholesale sweep of indie authors.


Yes, I think that's likely what happened. Indie authors probably get more complaints because there are so many of them grouped together on that one list, so it's easy for someone to get indignant and click the abuse button for numerous books at once. B&N may get around to removing the sample button from trad published erotica authors, but probably only if they get complaints.


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

Yes my sample button is missing on my titles under Mia Heart.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I put a thong on Mrs. Baumgartner, for pete's sake.  What more do they want?


it looks totally decent if you ask me ...


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Interestingly, they left two of my Ellen Fisher titles alone, but took the sample off _Isn't It Romantic?_, which is no more erotic than any of my other standard romance titles. I don't think the cover's any sexier, either. How random!

So anyone who writes romance of any stripe might want to check their book on B&N and make sure the sample's still available.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Here are my titles. None of mine are tagged as erotica:

Mirrorlight (Tags are Paranormal, Time Travel) - no sample
Zane's Tale (Paranormal) - sample
Foreplay (Paranormal) - sample
Zombie Fairy Tales (Horror, Anthology) - sample

Island Heat - just put up last night (Paranormal, Time Travel) - no sample

I checked my NYC stuff and it is unaffected, which makes me think it's PubIt titles only. None of mine are tagged as erotica, and there's no booty in any of my samples (though there's plenty in the books) so if they ARE cherry-picking, they're going off of covers? Except my new one doesn't have a cover showing because of a system glitch.  

I'm still going with system glitch (hope springs eternal?).


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Also, my cover with the nekkid chick and the blatant title (Foreplay) still has a sample. Go figure.


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## Beth O (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't write erotica so I can't really join this fight, but since so many of you are so successful can you go public with this?  In other words, do any of you have media contacts?  Maybe you can band together and do some sort of joint statement.  

Also, have you all ever considered starting your own website (e.g. All Erotica, All the Time -- but a better title  to sell your books?  I'm sure many of you have large followings already so you can direct your readers to your site where you can sell the books in all the formats yourself.  

I'm not suggesting you stop selling on Amazon, B&N, etc., just that you have an alternate site to sell your books so when those guys pull this sort of crap you're not completely at their mercy.  

Just throwing ideas out.  Feel free to ignore me.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

This may or may not be relevant. On this page is the "current PubIt bestsellers list":

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/u/pubit-self-publish-ebook-publishing/379002433/?cds2Pid=35949&linkid=1681001

Compare it to the actual sales rankings on this page:

http://productsearch.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.aspx?srt=SA&SZE=10&store=ebook&PRO=913&cds2Pid=35412&linkid=1629744

and you'll notice Bella's book and the #6 book (erotica) are missing from the front page list. Maybe Bella is missing because she's already in the top 100 (where she is indeed listed), but then why's the other one missing? Also, ahead of Barbara Freehy should be *ahem* Meg Harris, but that one's missing too.

However, "The Complete Father Brown mysteries" are also missing, and those are clearly not erotica; I don't think they've been there very long, so that might account for their omission. But the Meg Harris book has been in the ten or eleven spot for quite some time now, so that book should not be missing from the list on the front page UNLESS erotica is being skipped over on the front-page list. Whether it's ever been on that list, I couldn't tell you; never really noticed it till today.

In any event, this disturbs me, because Bella has what is clearly the best-selling PubIt book on B&N, and yet this list omits her entirely.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Oh lord. Barnes & Noble, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR METHODS.

Those lists don't even make sense! what the heck.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

It looks pretty clearly like the "official" PubIt bestseller list omits anything that is erotic romance. I noticed that there are two erotic romances ahead of Amanda H's _Flutter _that aren't listed as well.

I hadn't really noticed this list until today. I think it's a new innovation-- they sent us a letter talking about their new bestseller list, meant to help out PubIt authors, a week or so ago. Um... not so helpful if it excludes people who are selling well, actually.


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## Beth O (Jul 9, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> All good ideas. I fought this fight once over at Amazon. I'll do it again over there at BN too. I've already sent a letter to them including the following paragraph:
> 
> _If this isn't a glitch, but rather a new policy at Barnes and Noble, it amounts to little more than censorship. There are a great many erotica and erotic romance writers in the ebook market and we are very organized and motivated. We recently launched a strategically successful negative publicity campaign against Amazon's removal of erotica books, which garnered quite a bit of media attention, including CBS Business Network. There are a great many people in the world ready to defend intellectual freedom, those who abhor censorship in any form. And even if it is touted as just a "policy change," the business world doesn't look too kindly on businesses who apply that policy inconsistently.
> 
> ...


I hope this works. Honestly, the censorship is really getting out of hand. Yes, they are private companies and can choose to sell what they want. And if it is the new policy to not sell erotica then apply it across the board to all authors (including the traditionally published). But they won't do it because they make tons of money off of erotica. So they take these halfway measures in an attempt to placate the people who don't like it, but it won't work because those people won't be satisfied with the halfway measures, and you all are caught in the cross-fire. Grrrr, it just pisses me off.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

And how long before they start censoring all of romance?  Ugh. I keep hoping it's a glitch, but after seeing those lists, I'm really concerned.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Island Heat - just put up last night (Paranormal, Time Travel) - no sample


You have the words "sex" and "sexy" in your description. I'm guessing they're using a really loose algorithm to catch anything that's uploaded through PubIt that _might _be erotic, and removing the sample if their system flags it. I join you in hoping that it's in fact just a glitch, but it seems too specific for that.

I think I'm going to go through and put a brief excerpt in all my descriptions the way you did-- that never seemed necessary before, but maybe it will help now.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Yeah, I wish it was just a glitch - but the more I look at it, the more I think there's a bigger problem behind it.

And Pubit! support is eerily quiet on the issue. My guess is that I'll never hear anything back from them.

Jill - yes, what if they start censoring all of romance? Where will they draw the line what's considered romance, what's just hot romance, what's erotic romance, romantica, or erotica?  Not to muddy the waters, but my Scanguards vampire series isn't even considered erotica - it's romance (yes, it's hot, but so are other romance author's books), and yes, I write other books that are more considered erotica, but they took the sample button off all of my books. 

Do we now have to watch how we market our writing? Can't we say sex anymore? Is it back to euphemisms?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Good grief. I never even thought about the reference to 'sex' throwing those books into a filter. UGH. I wonder if we take 'sex' off if it fixes the (coughcough) problem?

If so, that is really, really shady.

And yeah - no matter how erotic (or not) a romance is, someone slaps the 'porn' label on it. Nice to see that nothing has changed. And here I was developing a tendre for PubIt, because I find them very romance friendly. Well, until now.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Some of it just seems random. My book _Isn't It Romantic?_ (sample button removed) uses the phrase "hot love scenes" My book_ All I Ever Wanted_ and _Unwrapped _(sample button retained) use the words "sexy" or "sex" in their descriptions. And there's no significant difference amongst the covers. I honestly can't tell what they're looking at. My erotic romances were, I presume, desampled because they were so marked, but I don't know what their problem with_ Isn't It Romantic?_ could be.



> And here I was developing a tendre for PubIt, because I find them very romance friendly. Well, until now.


I know. I was very, very happy with PubIt till today.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Well, I just deleted the words 'sexy' and 'sex' from my book descriptions and replaced them with other choices. If my samples come back, my head might explode.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Amazon, on the other hand, just removed books entirely from their catalog without any notice or recourse to authors.


Selena, can you post the quote from GoodReads about the Amazon rep taking someone to task for their choice in reading material when they called to gripe that their book had been removed from their archives? I'd appreciate it


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

And I'm editing my descriptions on the books without samples to include a brief excerpt so people know how I write.  Hopefully that will help readers make their decision as to whether to buy or not.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

I for some reason had no problem with publishing.  My book return at BN is zero but always have 1 or 2 books returned at amazon.  It is not due to number of books because I am selling more than double at BN. It appears to be formatting. So I believe BN formatting may be better.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> But yes, I'm sure they've gotten complaints. As I said, when you have a whole bunch of erotica grouped on one bestseller list, it's inevitable that some readers will complain. I do think it's because the erotica has been so successful there that it's being targeted now. One of mine has been in the top ten off and on for quite a while, so it was bound to catch flack eventually.


You'd think they'd just have a best-seller list for adult materials or remove adult books from the existing best-seller list. Seems like either would be preferable to removing books and/or samples.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> You'd think they'd just have a best-seller list for adult materials or remove adult books from the existing best-seller list. Seems like either would be preferable to removing books and/or samples.


I do think it would be good if they had an erotica list you could click on. It's clearly a wildly popular category on their site, and yet there doesn't seem to be a specific way of looking at just erotica.

That being said, I really don't like the idea of bestselling books of ANY genre being removed from the bestseller list. That doesn't seem fair to me.


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## Beth O (Jul 9, 2010)

Tina Folsom said:


> Is it back to euphemisms?


Please no throbbing members!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Please no throbbing members!


"Manhoods." I really miss the seventies romances, when men were men, women were women, and manly men had throbbing manhoods. 

Uh... I'm lying. Don't miss that at all, actually.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Beth O said:


> Please no throbbing members!


Beth, would "hard length of purple flesh" work for you?


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

I looked through my descriptions and on one of them there's no way I could take out the word sex.

"Vampire Amaury LeSang is cursed to feel everybody's emotions like a permanent migraine. The only way to alleviate the pain is through sex. " ---- I mean really, what would I say? 

"The only way to alleviate the pain is by knowing a woman in the biblical way."  --- ooh, I might just go with that. NOT.


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## Beth O (Jul 9, 2010)

Tina Folsom said:


> Beth, would "hard length of purple flesh" work for you?


That one's even worse, LOL!


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Carnal relations?


Carnal is good ...


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

boinking?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Beth O said:


> Please no throbbing members!


I just used 'hanky-panky'!


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Don't forget manroots, or, my new favorite - purple-helmeted soldiers of love :snerk:


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I seriously doubt covers have much to do with this. Computers can't judge covers, but they are exceptionally good at searching on any given text parameters. 

The gatekeepers are not gone. The fact that they have opened the gates doesn't mean they have given up their right to restrict them whenever they choose. It is not reasonable to expect them to leave the gates open forever. Each retailer will attempt to manage his offerings to generate the highest total sales revenue and ensure long term market share.

I fully expect the retailers to manage entry of eBooks into their sites. They are looking at data we have no hope of seeing. We guess. They know.


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## Nancy C. Johnson Author (Apr 28, 2010)

I was just thinking, maybe they should make it so the samples for erotic fiction could be downloaded using a credit card, but cost nothing to the sampler? A little more work, but then the samples could remain. Children would not have easy access that way.

I certainly would be upset myself about this. Samples are necessary. Of course, you could put excerpts of each book on your blog or website, and redirect readers there from your page, where they could also buy the book at B&N, Amazon, etc.

Hope this gets resolved in a way that doesn't hurt authors.

Nancy


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> This is the original thread she posted on.
> 
> That was when my books had been pulled from Amazon and my readers were finding that they weren't in their archives anymore. One reader called about it and said the representative she called chastised her for the "severity" of the book she'd ordered. She said he was very judgmental.


Right. I just didn't want to join the GR Group. I'm over 18, but I don't read erotica, for the most part . That's probably the gist of the comment, though. Honestly, that steams me and I'm tempted to call Amazon and give them a piece of my mind over it.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

It is deja vu. It happens all the time. They really don't have any obligation to publish a set of rules. All kinds of business decisions effecting vendors are made without consulting a set of rules. There are far too many permutations to expect written guidelines.  

Many decisions are made without a policy. When a manager is confronted by a situation, he can't wait until a policy is formulated and approved. He has to act on his best judgement. The difficult decisions are difficult because they don't have a policy written up. If the same situation comes up frequently, or if the decision didn't work out, then a policy may be developed.

In a situation like this, we may be seeing a policy at work, but don't know the policy. B&N is certainly not going to telegraph its retail strategy to Amazon.

We may not like the way they do it, but we can recognize how companies act without liking or approving of how they act.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Awww, thanks, Selena, for posting that.  Okay, see, now I'm actually pretty steamed, too.  Didn't Amazon SWEAR after some fiasco a while back that they would never ever pull books that you've purchased from your archives?  At the VERY least, they need to be issuing refunds.  Further, I totally agree that I wish they'd decide on a policy.  Is it no erotica?  No incest?  I noticed several of the freebies today are published by Samhain and one has a disclaimer that it contains rape scenes.  So, that can stay but incest can't?  WTF?  Grrrrr.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Didn't Amazon SWEAR after some fiasco a while back that they would never ever pull books that you've purchased from your archives?


I don't think they pulled them, exactly. But once a book isn't in your archives any more, if they don't have it for sale it can't be reloaded. It's a fine distinction, but I think the main point is that Amazon doesn't go around yanking books off your device any more. At least they say they don't. But yes, if you can't get a book you paid for, then they definitely owe you a refund, IMHO.



> an erotic story called "Me and My Great Dane." Also about what you think it's about.


Permission to say _ewwwww_?


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> I don't think they pulled them, exactly. But once a book isn't in your archives any more, if they don't have it for sale it can't be reloaded. It's a fine distinction, but I think the main point is that Amazon doesn't go around yanking books off your device any more. At least they say they don't. But yes, if you can't get a book you paid for, then they definitely owe you a refund, IMHO.
> 
> Permission to say _ewwwww_?


I second the "Eeeeewwww." Ick.

As to the first... I'm not sure how much sympathy I have. I mean, I just tried to delete a book from my archive and got a pop-up that said this:



> Are you sure you want to permanently delete this title? Doing so will permanently remove this title from your account, and you will have to re-purchase it if you want to read it again.


Doesn't get much plainer that that.

Now, if they went in and removed books from people's archives, then that's bogus, and yeah, they owe people refunds.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Think they're targeting Indies and NOT folks also traditionally published?


Since they left the sample on Bella's book, I do think it's a possibility. But then again, it might just be that they haven't gotten to every author yet. We shall see.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

The growth of traditional published books on the B&N site is much more controlled than the growth of independents. There are X number of published books, and Y number of books published this year. B&N can figure this out.

However, as we have seen, independents are a much more nebulous number. There is no known limit on the number of independent books that can be uploaded. Does anyone know how many published books have been added to B&N in 2011? How about the number of independents?  I sure don't. Perhaps someone in B&N has a graph showing cumulative totals by month?

If one were trying to maintain a certain balance between traditional and independents on the data base, it's reasonable to start with gaining control over the independents. That's the unknown variable.


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## Midnight Writer (Jan 4, 2011)

All my EC, Samhain, Loose Id, and Amber Quill titles still have sample buttons. My one indie title and even the two freebies still have sample buttons. Maybe because they are through Smashwords, not PubIt? Or I have so many press pubbed titles they skipped over my indie and freebie titles? I'll keep an eye on them and see what happens.

Sorry this had to happen. I hope it is a glitch and will be fixed soon.

Lanette


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm not sure what you mean? I'm traditionally published with Pocket, and some of my samples got taken away on my Indie titles.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Had a very simple suggestion from a reader how B&N could easily fix this: why not just offer the sample when the reader is logged onto their B&N account?

Once a person is logged on, B&N has all their details and it just takes one click to purchase anyway, ie. your CC info is already in there. Personally, when I go to the B&N website to browse, it already tells me underneath the buy button that my credit card ending xxxx will be charged. So, I'm logged in. They know who I am, so why can't they offer me the sample then?


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Tina Folsom said:


> Had a very simple suggestion from a reader how B&N could easily fix this: why not just offer the sample when the reader is logged onto their B&N account?
> 
> Once a person is logged on, B&N has all their details and it just takes one click to purchase anyway, ie. your CC info is already in there. Personally, when I go to the B&N website to browse, it already tells me underneath the buy button that my credit card ending xxxx will be charged. So, I'm logged in. They know who I am, so why can't they offer me the sample then?


I was thinking that earlier. It probably wouldn't be difficult to make it so that to view adult content you have to be logged in AND have a valid credit card on file. Poof, age verification. If they wanted to go a step further, they could implement a setting where you set a second password to view adult content, and once that's turned on, the only way to bypass that would be to call customer support.

Example 1:
I have no kids. Therefore I don't need to worry about the young'uns getting on my account and sampling stuff they shouldn't be. I still have to be logged in and have a credit card on file with B&N to sample erotica, but that's the end of it.

Example 2:
I have kids. I'd prefer them to not read erotica. The computer is shared, though, so I set the nanny-check on and make the password password2 (as opposed to the oh-so-original password1 that's on the main account ). Little Johnny logs on to B&N and starts trying to look at naughty books. When he clicks the "Sample" button, it asks him for the password. Not being the sharpest tack in the box, he can't guess it and goes to change it in the settings. The only way to do that is to call Tech Support. Little Johnny is foiled again.

-----------

That should work. It protects the poor little children, it protects B&N, and it shouldn't be too much of a pain in the tail for anyone.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

There are lots of ways they could make it work if they wanted to. They know their systems inside out.  Is there reason to think they want to?


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Is there reason to think they want to?


One would assume they'd want to keep customer and authors happy, but hey... I could be wrong.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> There are lots of ways they could make it work if they wanted to. They know their systems inside out. Is there reason to think they want to?


Depends on what their motivation for it was in the first place. Was it to protect minors from pornography or was it to please the NY publishers because they see they can't compete with the flood of indies as well as they'd hoped to? Is B&N giving them a leg up by shoving it down our throat?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"One would assume they'd want to keep customer and authors happy, but hey... I could be wrong."_

I suppose that depends on the customer segments they are looking at and how they evaluate the trade offs of differing attitudes. Keeping independent authors happy? I doubt it. What are the independents going to do? What's the leverage? Where's the power?

_"depends on what their motivation for it was in the first place. Was it to protect minors from pornography or was it to please the NY publishers because they see they can't compete with the flood of indies as well as they'd hoped to? Is B&N giving them a leg up by shoving it down our throat?"_

I can't say what their motivation is, nor can I provide a list of all the possible motivations. But I do suggest that if we can figure out solutions on a chat board, they can do the same thing much better. They know their systems far better than we do. If this is limited to erotica, their actions seem to indicate this is what they want to do.

The head os SmashWords made a comment here recently saying they were taking some action to limit visibility of erotica. I didn't pay much attention, and maybe I got it wrong, but this thread rings a bell. It might be worth searching.


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

Hey guys - I was in my writing cave all day finishing up a book due Friday. From reading through this thread, it doesn't sound like there's been any word from BN on this yet, but despite the data, I'm really, really trying to hold onto the hope that that this is all just another glitch in their system (!) and all the sample buttons will go back on soon and we'll get another one of those "Sorry, we've fixed the problem" emails tomorrow morning.

Question: How have everyone's numbers been on BN today? My sample buttons are still there & I still saw numbers drop. I know Tuesdays can be low volume days (although Wed is typically the worst according to my spreadsheets), but I wasn't sure what to attribute this all to. Change in volume? Some other weird stuff that got programmed into the system this weekend? Or changes I made to my book listings after the you-know-what hit the fan?

Hoping for a much, much better day for all of us tomorrow!
Bella


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Keeping independent authors happy? I doubt it. What are the independents going to do? What's the leverage? Where's the power?


Considering that erotica has been one of their best sellers, and that they are making a whole lot of money off indie authors, why would they want to actively tick us off? You'd think a reasonable compromise would be a good thing for them. Otherwise they're flushing a lot of money away.



> How have everyone's numbers been on BN today? My sample buttons are still there & I still saw numbers drop. I know Tuesdays can be low volume days (although Wed is typically the worst according to my spreadsheets), but I wasn't sure what to attribute this all to. Change in volume? Some other weird stuff that got programmed into the system this weekend? Or changes I made to my book listings after the you-know-what hit the fan?


My sales were down quite a bit yesterday. I added short excerpts to my descriptions, so I hope that might help some. But I wouldn't expect readers to keep buying without samples, honestly.

In your case, yes, I think the change you made to your book listing (although very prudent!) might impact your sales. There is no doubt that erotica and erotic romance sell over there, which is why many of us had our books clearly marked as such (aside from the obvious purpose of trying to warn readers so they don't stumble into something they don't want to read). I hope I'm wrong, though, and that your book will steady out and continue to sell well. Let us know how it goes!


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

My sales on B&N were down by about 25% yesterday - and I had no sales buttons, just some short excerpts on my blurbs.
I expect sales to drop further, considering that some readers had probably downloaded samples a few days ago when it was still working and then purchased a few days later. Now that they can't download any samples anymore, I don't expect many sales despite the fact that I added to my blurb that the readers can go to my blog and read the first to chapters there.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

My samples didn't come back overnight. I'm tempted to pull my books and put them back up 'new' to see if that makes the samples come back. Has anyone tried this?


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

So, here's the thing: My sample buttons are still there, and you would think that should be a very good thing and that my sales wouldn't have taken a hit yesterday, *but* after I took the word erotic out of my titles and pulled each book out of the erotic category yesterday - my BN sales are almost 50% down from the day before. Plus, Game For Love dropped in twelve hours from 31 to 101 in the rankings. Overnight sales which have been so fabulous these past two weeks? This morning? Blech. So I've decided to run a test today - I've added erotic back into the title and description of three books (GFL is one of them) and I've also added the erotic category back. The other three books I'm leaving as is from yesterday (no mention of erotic and not in the erotic category either). I will report back to let everyone know what happens. Honestly, I'm kind of kicking myself for making any changes yesterday to my files, but as Ellen said, it seemed like the prudent thing to do at the time....

 Bella


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> My sales dropped by almost 1/3 yesterday from the day before.
> 
> I've got a reporter/blogger from CBS on the hunt...he's asking questions. Maybe BN will answer HIM.


Go get 'em!

That's a pretty dramatic drop. Ugh.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Someone said on another board that PubIt is down for maintenance - but I can't see any notifications of that. Has anyone received anything about that? I can still get in.


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> Someone said on another board that PubIt is down for maintenance - but I can't see any notifications of that. Has anyone received anything about that? I can still get in.


It was down earlier this morning, but is back up now.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

jessicamorse said:


> It was down earlier this morning, but is back up now.


And still no samples? This makes me a sad, sad panda.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2011)

Tina Folsom said:


> Depends on what their motivation for it was in the first place. Was it to protect minors from pornography or was it to please the NY publishers because they see they can't compete with the flood of indies as well as they'd hoped to? Is B&N giving them a leg up by shoving it down our throat?


I always take the Hanlon's Razor approach: _Never attribute to malice that which is easily explained by stupidity._

I think we tend to give big corporations a lot more credit than they deserve, attributing to them all manner of complex conspiracies when in reality most of it is pure stupidity.

Most likely scenario is that BN got a series of complaints about pornographic material being accessible to children. The lawyers panicked and did the most immediate thing they could do while considering all of their legal options. It isn't a smart way to do business, but the far more reasonable explanation than a dark pact written in blood in some hidden lair between major publishing houses and BN.

Keep in mind, this is on the heels of the crap Amazon took for the how-to book on child pornography recently.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

I read Selena's post yesterday on Konrath's blog about having her sample button removed on B&N and went over to check mine...

Sure enough, gone. I did a quick comparison with other romance bestsellers to see that they had their sample buttons, and then I figured it was the Erotic tag. I've always been ambivalent about pegging my stuff with that label (it seems too  comedy-of-manners and relationship-driven) but there is a lot of sex in it, so... what the heck, I checked the Erotic box when I published it on Feb 1.

But my few sales came to a halt without the sample option. Total halt. So, with nothing to lose, I edited my book and took off the Erotic category last night. I assume that that's how they were able to make a global "no sample button" change for some romances and not others.

As for content being restricted based on age... well, that's a whole kettle o fish, isn't it? I'm very Judy Blume about it (kids are their own best censors), but I've got a 10 and 7 yr old of my own and I totally understand reasonable barriers to adult content. My own values are anti-violence rather than anti-sex, but I'm aware this is unAmerican  and want to get along with people. Unfortunately, stores like B&N and Amazon will always be inconsistent about how they apply these barriers. Romance will be censored but not thrillers, for instance. I agree with the comment that BN is not malicious, just self-protective, swinging with the wind of general opinion (or go like Borders, swinging in the wind).

I may have missed this in the thread, but did anyone have their sample button return after they unchecked  the Category--erotic  in their publishing tools? I'll let you know what happens with mine.

Sorry if I'm rambling. I'm not much of a poster and I do go on when I do.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Gretchen Galway said:


> My own values are anti-violence rather than anti-sex, but I'm aware this is unAmerican


I'm like you, totally un-American on this! This is such a prudish society, it's not even funny. In Europe, people are so much more relaxed about sex.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Considering that erotica has been one of their best sellers, and that they are making a whole lot of money off indie authors, why would they want to actively tick us off? You'd think a reasonable compromise would be a good thing for them. Otherwise they're flushing a lot of money away."_

They don't want to tick anyone off. They would prefer everyone love them. They would also prefer to take advantage of all possible revenue streams. However, suppose they perceive they can't do that, and they think they have to tick off one group in order to avoid worse consequences from another? We may agree with their perception, or we may disagree. Just consider how they would act if that is their perception. They take the best alternative.

I don't know. Does B&N have an erotica section in their stores? I can't recall seeing one, but there are lots of things I probably miss in the store if I'm not looking.

_"I'm like you, totally un-American on this! This is such a prudish society, it's not even funny. In Europe, people are so much more relaxed about sex."_

It's hard to characterize the views of an entire society, but if it is a prudish society, then B&N is rationally reflecting the values of the society they serve.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Gretchen Galway said:


> I may have missed this in the thread, but did anyone have their sample button return after they unchecked the Category--erotic in their publishing tools? I'll let you know what happens with mine.
> 
> Sorry if I'm rambling. I'm not much of a poster and I do go on when I do.


I edited mine but the buttons didn't return. I am thinking about pulling down the books and putting them back up again to see if that makes a difference.  But it'll have to be tonight, because I'm at work right now!


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2011)

Tina Folsom said:


> I'm like you, totally un-American on this! This is such a prudish society, it's not even funny. In Europe, people are so much more relaxed about sex.


Just to play Devil's Advocate then, would you be sounding the alarm so loudly if the preview button was missing from horror novels instead of erotica? Would you as vehemently protect the rights of those authors who write things you consider violent? Or is this thread less about "censorship" and more about "self preservation?"


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

I would be just as upset if it were horror books. If BN wants to control samples because they may be inappropriate for children that's their prerogative. I don't agree with it, but I can accept it. 

But targeting erotica with no warning or explanation is crappy.

ETA

When (yeah right) BN starts deleting samples from violent books I'll be right there with them to complain and raise hell. I bet most of the authors in this thread will do the same.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Just to play Devil's Advocate then, would you be sounding the alarm so loudly if the preview button was missing from horror novels instead of erotica? Would you as vehemently protect the rights of those authors who write things you consider violent? Or is this thread less about "censorship" and more about "self preservation?"


Any censorship is bad - just because I don't like violence doesn't mean I would be happy about horror books being censored in the same way as erotica books. Readers should be able to make informed choices. By having the sample button removed from certain books, that ability has been taken away. That goes for all kinds of books.

I don't eat nuts - does that mean I'll be happy if suddenly you couldn't buy nuts anymore? No, because I know plenty of people who enjoy nuts, and it's not right to deprive people of what they enjoy.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Just to play Devil's Advocate then, would you be sounding the alarm so loudly if the preview button was missing from horror novels instead of erotica? Would you as vehemently protect the rights of those authors who write things you consider violent? Or is this thread less about "censorship" and more about "self preservation?"


If something got censored for violence, people would be up in arms. But because it's erotica, it's assumed that people are just complaining because it cuts into the bottom line? That's kind of unfair, don't you think?

I read horror as well as romance, and you can bet I'd be furious if they deleted those samples as well.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Readers should be able to make informed choices."_

That's fine. But that tradition also holds nobody has an obligation to provide those choices. We have the right to read and not read. Write and not write. Sell and not sell. Those are all just as important as saying a reader should be able to choose.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

These discussions always seem to go in circles when we hit the "businesses have the right to censor/exclude what they want" groove.

Yes, they can. I believe that legally of course stores (online or otherwise) can sell what they want, how they want.

Here's my point: just as they can make business decisions, I can complain about them--as a customer and a supplier. I can talk about them with other writers, campaign against them where I can, try to convince others of my point of view, keep writing what I want, keep trying to sell what I write, and otherwise fan the flames of this debate because I believe in it.

When you add a business relationship to the mix--I'm small potatoes, but Selena is making serious money for them--of course we need to speak up. Why is this so controversial? We're not whining, we're negotiating. It's business. And this forum is the perfect place for us to come together to talk strategy for how to deal with this kind of threat to our careers. It will benefit all of us writers to be allies when dealing with the big distributors--BN & Amazon--with any and all issues that come up, whether they be censorship, incompetence, royalties, advertising, etc.

For instance, I'll be sure to check back here for how other erotica/erom writers are working around this sample issue, because it's essential for sales.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> If something got censored for violence, people would be up in arms. But because it's erotica, it's assumed that people are just complaining because it cuts into the bottom line? That's kind of unfair, don't you think?


It is also unfair to accuse an entire nation of being prudes because one website does something you don't approve of, which is ultimately my point.

I support the ALA. I support the Freedom to Read Foundation. I oppose real censorship at every opportunity. But the word censorship gets overused. If BN removed all erotica because a Senator threatened to hall them before Congress, I would be throwing a fit. THAT would be real censorship. But that isn't what happened. BN made a decision, a stupidly executed decision, to remove the preview button from some erotica books. But the books are still available for sale on the site. The covers are still visible and the blurbs still there. BN has not "censored" anyone. They have merely limited free access to potentially objectionable material on their commercial site which services customers of all ages. We can argue over the stupidity of the move and the poor execution of it, but it isn't censorship.

We cry wolf so much and invoke the First Ammendment at the drop of the hat. We scream censorship so often that the real cases get lost in the shuffle. We have a Patriot Act in this country that still allows the government to spy on your reading habits without a warrant. We have Homeland Security doing virtual strip searches of U.S. citizens. We have the Texas Educational System trying to force publishers to add Intelligent Design to science books and completely change the definition of "scientific theory" to "just a guess" in order weaken the teaching of evolution. In Tennessee, they are trying to BAN Islam and make the Koran illegal. It is hard for me to get indignant about the removal of the preview button on a commercial site when the government is engaged in real threats to my freedom.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> ... But the word censorship gets overused. If BN removed all erotica because a Senator threatened to haul them before Congress, I would be throwing a fit. THAT would be real censorship. But that isn't what happened. BN made a decision, a stupidly executed decision, to remove the preview button from some erotica books. But the books are still available for sale on the site. The covers are still visible and the blurbs still there. BN has not "censored" anyone. They have merely limited free access to potentially objectionable material on their commercial site which services customers of all ages. We can argue over the stupidity of the move and the poor execution of it, but it isn't censorship.
> 
> We cry wolf so much and invoke the First Ammendment at the drop of the hat. We scream censorship so often that the real cases get lost in the shuffle. We have a Patriot Act in this country that still allows the government to spy on your reading habits without a warrant. We have Homeland Security doing virtual strip searches of U.S. citizens. ... It is hard for me to get indignant about the removal of the preview button on a commercial site when the government is engaged in real threats to my freedom.


Julie is correct (which happens a lot for some reason...) Taking away the preview is not censorship.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2011)

Gretchen Galway said:


> These discussions always seem to go in circles when we hit the "businesses have the right to censor/exclude what they want" groove.


That might be because these discussions always start with *OMG I AM BEING CENSORED THEY ARE EVIL* instead of trying to approach it from a business perspective. The knee jerk reaction is "I'm being censored. They are out to get me. Big Pubishing industry is behind it!"

And you are absolutely right. These are just business decisions. And we do need a cohesive approach. But you can't start a business negotiation from a place where you think the person across the table is an evil bastard out to crush your dreams and censor your voice.


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

I firmly believe that kids should be protected from seeing things they shouldn't see.  With so many ereaders being introduced into schools I can see why B&N or Amazon both would want to take protective measures.  At the same time however I don't think removing the sample button was the right way to go about it.  There has got to be away to be protective, and still offer samples to adults who choose to read erotica.  I am hoping the sample button removal was just a temporary fix while they are working on other ways to make things available to those who are of age to read it.  I'm always of the cover my butt mindset, and they should be too.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It is hard for me to get indignant about the removal of the preview button on a commercial site when the government is engaged in real threats to my freedom.


You're taking one person's offhand remark and attributing it to the entire thread. We're trying to discuss the impact of having samples removed from PubIt. People are speculating. Not all speculations are gospel.

The bottom line is that (if this IS censorship and not a glitch) B&N is going in and modifying the service they are offering to certain authors because of what they perceive the content to be. What if fundamentalist groups went after SFF next? Is it still B&N's right to censor away simply because there's a dragon on the cover? Sure, I suppose they can do that if it's their website. But we are vendors with B&N. They supply us with a 1099 at the end of the year. Since we are vendors, we cannot tell them how to run their business. But if it impacts our business, you can bet that we'll be unhappy about it. And we'll discuss it here.

I'm really unhappy that there seems to be some commentary appearing in this thread that's all "Well, you guys write erotica so you should expect that not all customers want to see it." I hate mysteries! Does that mean I want the entire category removed? I don't have children! Why do I have to see the kids books? You don't have to agree with what people write, but you also don't have to come into the thread here and say "Well, you should expect this!" Why should erotica be treated differently on BN.com when it's placed on the shelves like everything else at the physical stores?

My books were not erotica, my samples were not erotic, and I still had them removed, so I'm discussing with others the 'why' of it and hoping that this will not impact long-term business, because like I said, I really love PubIt. But I'm not happy with what is happening.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

To get back to the topic at hand, I poked around looking at some Samhain books that feature MFM relationships. They have samples. I looked at Carina Epress books. Samples. I looked at Smashwords books. Samples.

PubIt? Some samples, some not. I emailed the PubIt helpdesk (for all the good it did) and asked about it. So I'm wondering if this is only going to be applied to PubIt titles? Has anyone from Smashwords or another epress had their samples removed? My NYC titles haven't been messed with (of course).


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> So I'm wondering if this is only going to be applied to PubIt titles? Has anyone from Smashwords or another epress had their samples removed? My NYC titles haven't been messed with (of course).


Are the only ones missing the sample button right now PubIt titles? If that is the case, that really is NOT right. I'm not sure if I read right, do ebooks by traditional publishers that have the sex thing going for them still have their samples?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

MiaHeart said:


> Are the only ones missing the sample button right now PubIt titles? If that is the case, that really is NOT right. I'm not sure if I read right, do ebooks by traditional publishers that have the sex thing going for them still have their samples?


That's the really confusing thing. None of my books have sex in the samples. My NYC books (paranormal romance) have samples. My books sent through Smashwords have samples, but aren't romance so it's hard to say. My two PubIts were stripped.

I looked up a Berkley Heat author. She has samples on her books. Ditto an EC author. Two of them, actually, and one was a book I read that I KNOW starts out with sex. Samples are still available, which makes me think it's a PubIt thing. Either that, or they're just starting with PubIt?


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

It would seem maybe they are just getting started.  I can't see them stripping them from Pub-it author's and not from all the others.  That would be..  I don't even have a nice word for it.  We just have to hope for the best.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

MiaHeart said:


> Are the only ones missing the sample button right now PubIt titles? If that is the case, that really is NOT right. I'm not sure if I read right, do ebooks by traditional publishers that have the sex thing going for them still have their samples?


Yes, check out Lora Leigh and Maya Banks - both very explicit erotica authors - NY published. Their samples work.


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

Tina Folsom said:


> Yes, check out Lora Leigh and Maya Banks - both very explicit erotica authors - NY published. Their samples work.


Wow..  Thank you for letting me know.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

MariaESchneider said:


> Julie is correct (which happens a lot for some reason...) Taking away the preview is not censorship.


Yes, I agree with this also. All B&N has done is remove a sales tool, but not the ability to sell. It's not censorship.


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

Emma Midnight said:


> Yes, I agree with this also. All B&N has done is remove a sales tool, but not the ability to sell. It's not censorship.


I think a huge issue at hand is they have removed the samples from pub-it authors and not NY published authors. I am scratching my head on that one and don't want to assume the worst.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

There are a couple of points I think are worth discussing. 

First, is B&N acting as a publisher when writers use Pubit to put their books up for sale? I think an argument can be made that they are, in fact, the actual publisher. I think Amazon is in the same boat with their publishing tool. So, if that is the case, then they might have more liability for books put on sale through Pubit than they do for books coming from other sources. This might make them target Pubit titles and not others. 

The other point is related to all of this indie publishing. I think indie writers are expensive for B&N to deal with. Already we see Amazon taking a more deliberate approach to putting indie books up for sale and they are undergoing more review, more human intervention. This is expensive, and it's an expense per book that in many cases may not sell much. 

I'd argue that Amazon and B&N have a greater level of trust with the traditional publisher. Random House is not going to publish a guide to pedophilia. If Random House does want to publish something objectionable and Amazon rejects it, Random House is not going to change the title and description and try to push it through again, the way an indie writer would. 

The point I'm getting at in a roundabout way is that this cost of doing business with indies is probably going to get pushed back onto us at some point after the ebook market is mature. If Amazon and B&N feel they have to put up gates staffed by humans instead of software algorithms, they won't eat all of that cost. Those gates seem to be going up already.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2011)

Emma Midnight said:


> I'd argue that Amazon and B&N have a greater level of trust with the traditional publisher. Random House is not going to publish a guide to pedophilia. If Random House does want to publish something objectionable and Amazon rejects it, Random House is not going to change the title and description and try to push it through again, the way an indie writer would.


_This is what I hit upon earlier as well._ Amazon took a huge PR hit when that self published pedophilia book was on their site. Right now, an indie author can upload a file and cover and have it almost instantly become available for sale. There is no gatekeeper to make sure the book is even legal (forget literary gatekeepers). Already we've seen companies make adjustments. Amazon no longer allows indies to self pub public domain books, for example, both because they were flooding Amazon with dozens of copies of the same book and things they were uploading were not always PD. Professional publishers of erotica cater to erotica readers, but not sexual perverts. There is a safety net there where BN can be relatively confident a book posted by a traditional publisher won't contain beastiality, pedofilia, and rape. There is no such safety net when anyone can upload anything. This creates legitimate legal issues.

Right now, they are still trying to please everyone, and so they make stupid decisions. But eventually someone is going to have to say "we can't keep doing this the way we are doing this."


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

So is it possible that because Smashwords is considered a 'publisher' that if you have erotica and you go through them, you won't get stripped of your samples because Smashwords has all liability at that point?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Does B&N have an erotica section in their stores?


There used to be an erotica section in my B&N. Can't swear it's still there with all the alterations they've made lately.

As I said, I had the sample buttons removed from all my erotic romances and one of my regular romances (the latter for absolutely no reason that I can see). My Samhain books are all still sampled, but they're regular romances, so... *shrugs*



> But if it impacts our business, you can bet that we'll be unhappy about it. And we'll discuss it here.


Exactly.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> So is it possible that because Smashwords is considered a 'publisher' that if you have erotica and you go through them, you won't get stripped of your samples because Smashwords has all liability at that point?


None of us know. I was speculating. We will probably never get a straight answer from B&N because they are not going to debate it. Their answer will be they get to choose what they sell and how they manage sampling.


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> So is it possible that because Smashwords is considered a 'publisher' that if you have erotica and you go through them, you won't get stripped of your samples because Smashwords has all liability at that point?


Looks that way. My Smashwords stuff on BN still has samples.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

jessicamorse said:


> Looks that way. My Smashwords stuff on BN still has samples.


Jessica, thank you for sharing. That's very, very interesting. So right now it looks like it's only PubIt titles, and only PubIt titles that were 'deemed' through some sort of selection process to be racy.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

There is a large empathy-deficit going on here for those of us who lost our sample buttons.

Would there be more if/when they remove the free samples for all PubIt titles? Not just the ones for our sexytime books?


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

That could happen, I mean many regular books have racy scenes, or things that may be considered offensive by some.  What's offensive to one may not be offensive to another.  Some things may start slipping through the cracks not even tagged as erotica, or without a warning.  Then would they remove the samples from all pub-it books to be safe?  That could happen.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

If you don't mind having a puny reader make a comment. 
But I do see it as a kind of censorship if they take away sampling from just a certain type of genre. It doesn't have to be the refusal to sell something, taking away the samples cuts down on sales for those authors period. I always sample before I buy. 
Some have already stated they are losing sales. And in addition, their titles are dropping of the visible best seller lists. Of course its speculation for me to think that might be the goal, who knows. 

If you take away the level playing field, then most definitely its a kind of censorship. Now I am following this just to see how this plays out. I hope that its all just a mistake and it will all be back to normal for the authors and readers, but one can not help but speculate and wonder why and if's. 

There are a LOT of readers or erotica out there, always have, always will be. Maybe this needs to also be brought up with those readers so they can also complain if these issues continue. 

I don't blame the authors for speaking out and worrying a bit about it all. Its easy to sit back and call it "business" if its not your genre affected. But then Erotica and to extent Romance have always been the stepchild with authors and readers alike being not taken serious by some. 

And as a heavy reader of romance some of that can be argued as spicy than some erotica I read, I worry also. 


....reader out.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2011)

Gretchen Galway said:


> There is a large empathy-deficit going on here for those of us who lost our sample buttons.
> 
> Would there be more if/when they remove the free samples for all PubIt titles? Not just the ones for our sexytime books?


It isn't a lack of empathy. It's a lack of refusing to assume it is a personal attack on indies and instead looking at the situation from a nuetral business standard. Frankly, I'm surprised there are not MORE controls on PubIt and Kindle for ALL books. Anyone can upload anything and sell it right now, and Amazon and BN go around chasing shadows after the fact when someone complains. Eventually the self pub books are going to hit a critical mass point where it will be more efficient to be proactive on the front end with tighter controls than it is to chase after stuff on the back end later.

Amazon and BN are criminally and civilly liable for what they sell on their sites. To date, they have been pretty loose with indies, affording them an incredible opportunity to reach an enormous market with *NO INVESTMENT*. But the low cost of entry means anyone can play. That means both legitimate erotica authors and people who use to be locked in the dark corners of the internet on private message boards. And right now, nobody has a means of differentiated between the two. Eventually, something will have to give.

I fully expect eventually for there to be an approval process put in place for books. Right now, the closest the industry has to a genuine approval process is Smashwords, and even there the meatgrinder is worried about formatting, not content. They won't be about to sustain this "anyone can sell anything anytime" business model forever. And it won't just be erotica. It will be making sure people aren't selling copyright protected material or libelous material.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

I agree with Atunah and Gretchen.  I'll firstly say that I am not a reader of erotica.  I read romances pretty heavily, and I don't mind sex scenes, but I tend to not shop in the erotica genre.  Regardless, it is worrisome to me that they are pulling samples.  If they wish to put gate-keepers in place, fine.  But to target a single genre (if that is what's happening)?  To pull books from customer's archives without offering refunds?  That is wrong.

As for Gretchen's comment - I suspect that if it were ALL books published through PubIt that there would be a LOT more concern.  And it may very well come to that.  I can only imagine the outrage if every author on this board had seen their sales deteriorate by 50% overnight.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Here's my point: just as they can make business decisions, I can complain about them--as a customer and a supplier. I can talk about them with other writers, campaign against them where I can, try to convince others of my point of view, keep writing what I want, keep trying to sell what I write, and otherwise fan the flames of this debate because I believe in it."_

Of course you can complain about them. Nobody questions that. You can complain or be quiet. That is your choice. You can also advocate for change in corporate practices. Go for it.

We are all free to read, write, and sell.

1. Readers have no obligation to read what writers want to write.
2. Readers have no obligation to buy what sellers want to sell.
3. Writers have no obligation to write what readers want to read.
4. Writers have no obligation to write what sellers want to sell.
5. Sellers have no obligation to sell what readers want to read.
6. Sellers have no obligation to sell what writers want to write.
7. Everyone is free to complain about everyone else.

Ain't this a great country?


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Are you really that surprised? I did warn ya'll... the "If you lay down with dogs you're bound to get fleas..." folks were bound to show up. Erotica is a huge money maker for ebooks. And no one wants to talk about it or acknowledge it or defend it. Esp those who don't write or read it.
> 
> I'm sorry you feel unheard. I know the feeling. But I do hear you. I get it.


I try to look at these things without emotion if I can. I have an erotica title that had the sample removed. I wish it still had sampling. I do have empathy.

But I also have empathy for B&N. They are dealing with thousands of loose cannons now who have nothing to lose when they go through Pubit because they have no real business at stake. Someone can spend a couple of hours writing an erotic story about bestiality and push it through Pubit and who is at risk? The author? His work gets taken down and he shrugs. Another customer sees it and starts to get a bad feeling about B&N, however, and that is a risk to their image and bottom line. Or someone's 12 year old boy has downloaded 58 free samples of erotica, and mom starts to look at them and is appalled and puts B&N on the list of blocked sites.

There have been people posting disturbing fiction on the net for years now. How should B&N make sure that stuff isn't lifted and pushed through Pubit? And if it is, do they have obligation to their shareholders to ensure that there isn't an uproar over minors downloading samples that contain graphic descriptions of sex with children, corpses, and animals?

What is evolving is a situation where Amazon and B&N need to police submissions because the writers won't do it. The traditional publishers will do it because they have a business at risk. What does one guy in his basement have at risk, though? Nothing. He closes up shop and reopens in the morning under a new name and starts to try to push the same titles through with minor changes.

I'd also add that removing samples is a far cry from removing books as Amazon did recently. Be thankful for that at least.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

I find this disturbing, and don't disagree with the term "censorship".

From Merriam-Webster:



> *censor* (_transitive verb_) - to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable <_censor_ the news>; _also_ : to suppress or delete as objectionable <_censor_ out indecent passages>
> 
> *censorship* (_noun_) - the institution, system, or practice of censoring


How does the _suppression_ of samples for erotic books not fit the definition of censorship, exactly?

If Amazon/B&N/PubIt/Smashwords decided to suppress the samples for gay and lesbian books instead, would it be okay to call it censorship then? Or what if we lived in crazy-backwards-world, and samples of religious books were suppressed? Would that be censorship?

All that said, I do understand the concern about offering samples of more explicit works to anyone who happens upon their site. Specifically, kids. Adults can easily choose not to download a sample if it's not their thing. Requiring someone to log in to their account before they can download certain samples seems reasonable enough to me. That way, those of us who are adults can continue to be treated as such, and kids can be denied access. Of course, that plan will require parents to actually, you know, _parent_, and restrict access to their accounts from their kids.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> And in addition, their titles are dropping of the visible best seller lists.


As I pointed out yesterday, it appears that erotica and erotic romance are not listed on the PubIt Bestseller list anyway.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Hmm, I thought I read where one of the authors mentioned dropping in ranking. I admit to being ignorant as to how stuff is listed on BaN as I only have a Kindle. So the erotica titles have no ranking on there? So you can't search books by bestselling like on Amazon? When I go to Amazon and I for example look for books and they are usually listed initially as bestselling. So all are in there. Are they not appearing that way on BaN?


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

Next it will be books about seriel killers or horror in general.  Someone will be afraid some serial killer is out there publishing all of his macarbe works as fiction.  All them brains spattered against the wall....eeeewwww.  Hey there is an idea for a novel. LOL


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

flanneryohello said:


> All that said, I do understand the concern about offering samples of more explicit works to anyone who happens upon their site. Specifically, kids. Adults can easily choose not to download a sample if it's not their thing. Requiring someone to log in to their account before they can download certain samples seems reasonable enough to me. That way, those of us who are adults can continue to be treated as such, and kids can be denied access. Of course, that plan will require parents to actually, you know, _parent_, and restrict access to their accounts from their kids.


I think you do have to be signed in to download any sample, but anyone can sign up for an account. There was conversation upthread about requiring a credit card as verification, which makes sense.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Hmm, I thought I read where one of the authors mentioned dropping in ranking.


Oh, I've dropped in ranking, all right. But there's a bestselling list on the front page of PubIt:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/u/pubit-self-publish-ebook-publishing/379002433/?cds2Pid=35949&linkid=1681001

which excludes erotica and thus does not match up with the actual rankings here:

http://productsearch.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.aspx?srt=SA&SZE=10&store=ebook&PRO=913&cds2Pid=35412&linkid=1629744

Also, looking at my Samhain titles, I realized they are much less likely to receive adverse feedback from readers, as there is no "if you find inappropriate content, please report it to Barnes and Noble" button, such as exists on all PubIt titles. This means anyone who has an ax to grind can go through and click PubIt erotica as "inappropriate," but that they'd have to be REALLY annoyed to complain about erotica from publishers, since it would take an email or a phone call.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"We cry wolf so much and invoke the First Ammendment at the drop of the hat."_

Agree. People forget the First Amendment has nothing to do with the relationships between private individuals and companies.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

jessicamorse said:


> I think you do have to be signed in to download any sample, but anyone can sign up for an account. There was conversation upthread about requiring a credit card as verification, which makes sense.


Yepper. And it would be very easy to do.

Ellen, does that include Smashwords title (no report button)? Seems like the easiest fix for y'all is going to be to publish via Smashwords.

Terrence, I don't think anyone in this thread has said that B&N is violating their First Amendment rights. What I'm seeing is a lot of concerned business people.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Well now I am really confused  . Took me a while to get what pubIt even means. So they have 2 different bestseller lists there, one that includes all books no matter if big publisher or indy and then they have one for their indy books which they call the pubIt section and its different  

As a Reader I would be confused as where to go to look. 

But the erotic novels that are affected right now are still appearing on the all encompassing main lists of all books sold? So there it would show if they drop off, therefore decreasing visibility. This reader would prefer going to the regular list that includes all books not just indy's.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

Arkali said:


> Yepper. And it would be very easy to do.
> 
> Ellen, does that include Smashwords title (no report button)? Seems like the easiest fix for y'all is going to be to publish via Smashwords.
> 
> Terrence, I don't think anyone in this thread has said that B&N is violating their First Amendment rights. What I'm seeing is a lot of concerned business people.


The credit card thing would do little to alleviate concerned parents if they forget to sign out of B&N when leaving the site. And let's face it -- most of us don't want to log in every time we go to a site. The best option would be an opt-in for sampling. Parents concerned could opt ouf of sampling, and here's where it gets tricky: Does B&N somehow distinguish between erotica and non-erotica to allow some sampling still? Or is all sampling turned off?

The problem as I understand it with Smashwords is that writers seem to sell better by going through Pubit. Much better from what I've heard.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Terrence, I don't think anyone in this thread has said that B&N is violating their First Amendment rights. What I'm seeing is a lot of concerned business people"_

I agree. I was responding to Julie's general observation about how frequently the First Amendment is invoked.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Atunah said:


> If you don't mind having a puny reader make a comment.
> But I do see it as a kind of censorship if they take away sampling from just a certain type of genre. It doesn't have to be the refusal to sell something, taking away the samples cuts down on sales for those authors period. I always sample before I buy.


Readers are not puny! We are all readers.  Your feedback is equally as viable as anyone elses.  I'm upset as an author, but I'm also really upset as a reader - I buy a ton of indie stuff now by massive downloads of samples. I download 20 of them at a time and just flip through. If it's good, I start reading right away. If it's not, I ditch the samples. So this is hard for me as a reader as well as a writer.

And while I know that it's early to worry yet, but my sales on B&N were down 50% yesterday, and they are down 75% today. I have a small number so it's not by any means a good sampling, but I am concerned enough to consider pulling my titles from PubIt and going through Smashwords instead.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

So has anyone figured this out or gotten an answer yet? I don't write erotica, or read it much, but I hate to see anyone's writing businesses hurt.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Emma Midnight said:


> The credit card thing would do little to alleviate concerned parents if they forget to sign out of B&N when leaving the site. And let's face it -- most of us don't want to log in every time we go to a site. The best option would be an opt-in for sampling. Parents concerned could opt ouf of sampling, and here's where it gets tricky: Does B&N somehow distinguish between erotica and non-erotica to allow some sampling still? Or is all sampling turned off?


Totally agree. My actual full suggestion was a double-layer. Firstly, you must have a credit card on file to sample at all. Secondly, if a customer chooses, they can invoke a second password which must be entered in each time to download adult content. Re-setting the password can be done by calling customer service (or, possibly, via a security question). Honestly, I don't see a downside to that method.

Terrence - I 100% agree.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

It would be extremely difficult for B&N or Amazon to identify erotica under the current open access system. Allowing options based on content implies one knows what the content is. They couldn't do it with violence either. All they have are tags set up by the author or readers, and that isn't sufficient to drive a control system.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> It would be extremely difficult for B&N or Amazon to identify erotica under the current open access system. Allowing options based on content implies one knows what the content is. They couldn't do it with violence either. All they have are tags set up by the author or readers, and that isn't sufficient to drive a control system.


Agreed. That's one of the problems they have now -- apparently they are targeting Pubit titles self-identified as erotica. Writers will work around this and B&N will be right back at square one again.

And the opt-in idea has problems. I doubt B&N wants to send out an email to millions of people telling them they now have to go through a process to opt-in to sampling.

It's the brave new world of publishing. Headaches like this should be expected as things get worked out. I still think in the long run indies are going to have to bear some of the cost of policing the system.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> The problem as I understand it with Smashwords is that writers seem to sell better by going through Pubit. Much better from what I've heard.


This seems to be the general consensus. I don't want to switch to Smashwords.



> And while I know that it's early to worry yet, but my sales on B&N were down 50% yesterday, and they are down 75% today.


My sales dropped by about a hundred copies yesterday. Too early to be sure about today's numbers, but I think they'll wind up even lower.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> Emma Midnight said:
> 
> 
> > The problem as I understand it with Smashwords is that writers seem to sell better by going through Pubit. Much better from what I've heard.
> ...


That may no longer be true, though, with sampling being taken away. I REALLY hope that this gets worked out for y'all - it sucks.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> It would be extremely difficult for B&N or Amazon to identify erotica under the current open access system. Allowing options based on content implies one knows what the content is.


Yes, and I do agree largely with your point of view, Terrence. Part of the craziness of this situation is that I don't consider myself an erotica author. I think of my work as romantic comedies, though the only work (a novella) I've published so far had so many sex scenes (and Arkali said Holy Moses!) that I tagged it as Erotica when I was clicking the boxes on PubIt. That alone is probably why they pulled the sample.

I also agree that this open gate will not be open forever, that too much liability is on B&N and Amazon's shoulders as our unofficial publisher, and now's the time to get in while the getting's good. Because the flood hasn't happened yet. We're still in the minority, authors publishing ourselves, but not for long. It seems likely that when the rest of the typing universe starts uploading their work, from all shades of quality, all stripes of offensive and benign, Amazon and BN will start restricting access.

But in the meantime, us romance/erotica/whateverweare writers will be banding together here to share ideas and tactics, K?

Wow, for somebody who doesn't post much, I've really gone over my head today. Sheesh! I can't handle this kind of heat, lol. I hope we are all still friends.

(can you tell I'm a Pleaser?)


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

So how would Amazon and others erect gates? I could see a few things they could do:

1) Lower the royalty rate to offset the cost of policing submissions
2) Charge a fee to publish, either per book or perhaps an annual fee that might be stiff enough to discourage the not-really-serious people, say $200/yr. 
3) Segregating erotic content onto a separate website. 
4) Segregating all content from Pubit and DTP onto a separate website. 

Right now, Amazon wants to encourage ebooks and B&N is desperate to make sure they get their share of that business too. At some point ebooks will be just as important, perhaps more important, than paper books and Amazon and B&N won't feel the same urgency to promote it by allowing a flood of self-publishing.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Gretchen Galway said:


> I also agree that this open gate will not be open forever, that too much liability is on B&N and Amazon's shoulders as our unofficial publisher, and now's the time to get in while the getting's good. Because the flood hasn't happened yet.


I feel the same - though I have to say it's kind of sucky on BN's part to not think the liability through ahead of time. That's poor business planning if no one stopped to think about it. Giving us the same subset of tools as everyone else and then yanking them away because you feel it might make you 'more liable' due to the content is not my problem as your consumer, nor is it my problem as your contractor. But if you hire me as your plumber, and then won't turn off the water so I can fix your toilet, we're going to have problems.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> So how would Amazon and others erect gates? I could see a few things they could do:
> 
> 1) Lower the royalty rate to offset the cost of policing submissions
> 2) Charge a fee to publish, either per book or perhaps an annual fee that might be stiff enough to discourage the not-really-serious people, say $200/yr.
> ...


No segregating!

I think when you activate your nook, you have to choose the parental controls. After that, all bets are off. If you set it up to be adult, that's fine. If you want to set it to have child controls, then that's fine too. But your decision should not influence my buying.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_" feel the same - though I have to say it's kind of sucky on BN's part to not think the liability through ahead of time. That's poor business planning if no one stopped to think about it. "_

Since nobody ever opened the gates before, nobody knew what to expect. This is a grand experiment, with both Amazon and B&N learning what nobody knew before. It appears they are going to craft their controls on the real world they encounter rather than a speculative one. That is a rational approach. When they learn enough, they have an obligation to their shareholders to use that information to maximize shareholder value.

Thank God for their grand experiment.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _" feel the same - though I have to say it's kind of sucky on BN's part to not think the liability through ahead of time. That's poor business planning if no one stopped to think about it. "_
> 
> Since nobody ever opened the gates before, nobody knew what to expect. This is a grand experiment, with both Amazon and B&N learning what nobody knew before. It appears they are going to craft their controls on the real world they encounter rather than a speculative one. That is a rational approach. When they learn enough, they have an obligation to their shareholders to use that information to maximize shareholder value.
> 
> Thank God for their grand experiment.


I'm not trying to be combatative, but this is a rational approach for a business? What if software was released without a beta period? What if your bank decided to implement changes and 'test them as they go' ? Are you cool with that? Your doctor testing a drug on you just because they want to see how it works 'in the real world'? I'm sorry, but I still believe that backpedaling for legal reasons now is poorly thought out. A company as big as B&N has a fleet of lawyers on hand to think about this stuff in advance.

But we will have to agree to disagree.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"I'm not trying to be combatative, but this is a rational approach for a business? What if software was released without a beta period? What if your bank decided to implement changes and 'test them as they go' ? Are you cool with that?"_

Of course it's a rational approach. It happens all the time. Nobody is going to develop a bunch of contingency plans unless they have reason to think expected value warrants the effort. Companies change and adapt all the time and it's based on what they encounter. They plan some things, and we can see both B&N and Amazon planned quite a bit in implementing their systems. They even beta tested them. But they know they aren't smart enough to predict everything. Who is? This is how business works.

Has B&N said they implemented this change for legal reasons? If not, how do we know why they did it?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Has B&N said they implemented this change for legal reasons? If not, how do we know why they did it?


There is no statement from B&N. I'm hoping one gets flushed out soon. I know a friend has contacted someone on the inside and asked for a statement.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"No. They knew EXACTLY what the market looked like. Or they should have. There were hundreds of independent publishers who had been in epublishing for ten years! "_

The market is far different now than prior to opening the Amazon and B&N gates. None of us know the composition of the books uploaded to Amazon and B&N by independents. We don't know how many fiction, non-fiction, mystery, romance, erotica, thrillers, etc. Since we don't know what it is now, we can't say it is the same as it was then.

I agree this isn't a totally new technology. It is a new commercial application distinct from the past in that it allows anyone to upload what they choose, and it is paired with new hardware that is sold in conjunction with the eBooks.

It is different in scale, and that is quite a significant difference. Its scale is a function of the open gates that did not exist in the past.

We might remember that the freedom B&N has to determine what it will sell derives from the same principle that lets authors write and publish what they choose. It's a package deal.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

As an interesting sidenote, someone on the PubIt Help board complained that some of his books were missing samples (whether the samples had recently disappeared is unclear from his post).  I mentioned this situation and asked if his books were romance/erotica.  He responded that his books are mostly kids' books, but that he writes some nonfiction as well.  No erotica.  So this may be an expanding problem... or not *shrugs*.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Maybe, hopefully, it's a glitch....


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

So since you think they should have thought ahead, are you saying they should have restricted sampling for adult content all along?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> ...are you saying they should have restricted sampling for adult content all along?


Had they thought ahead, they could have come up with some simple system for verifying age before one downloads samples, or something along those lines. That way they wouldn't be suddenly losing all these sales.

And I tend to agree with Selena-- anyone who's watched the success of Ellora's Cave and similar companies should have realized that erotica would likely to be a very big seller in any ebook endeavor. This should not have taken B&N by surprise.

ETA: And good news for me is that it looks like I'm going to finish out the day with sales figures similar to yesterday's. That's still down a hundred from the day before, but at least sales don't seem to have slid any further. Perhaps adding excerpts to the descriptions helped. How are the rest of you doing, saleswise?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Mine perked a little, but still less than half.

And actually, I would love for some sort of 'adult' content flag to be set on the Nook when you purchase it. You have to register it, so I'd be perfectly fine with certain categories not showing if 'adult' is not checkmarked. I have a friend that shares her Nook Color with her daughter, and I get that she doesn't want her seeing certain books. But I don't agree in just wiping the slate 'in case of liability' because I think that opens you up to other liability.

And fingers crossed that it totally is a glitch! That would make me so happy.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I hear complaints all through this thread that BN and Amazon are just doing what's right for their business. That's great. But they should have done so BEFORE implementing their system.


And this has actually been my point. This isn't a conspiracy. It's poor planning. It is what happens when a positive attitude trumps common sense. You end up with business plans that make no plan for when things go wrong, and then you have to scramble after the fact. Welcome to corporate America!  

I've been involved in digital publishing since 2002. Before Amazon and the Kindle, a digital publisher needed to be APPROVED by a vendor before they could upload. I had to jump through hoops to get into mobipocket and some of the other sites. Even RPGNOW, which is predominately roleplaying games, had an actually human being review my first products before I was allowed to live load directly to the site. And I don't mean just checking formatting. I mean making sure the product had at least editing and wasn't something illegal. And once I was trusted as a publisher, then and only then was I allowed to live load to the sites. The strange irony is that when the digital industry was smaller, it was easier to police it and easier to quickly ID the troublemakers and root them out before they dragged everyone else down with them.

So it has always boggled my mind that Amazon and now BN just lets anyone and their brother upload anything without reviewing it first. At the very least, I would expect a new author's first book to have to go through a full review process, and maybe after that they can live load once they have shown they know what they are doing. They set the entire program up on the honors system and crossed their fingers. And in truth, the majority of people ARE honest, and do appreciate the opportunity that has been opened. But there is still a large enough minority of scumbags, freaks, and charlatans that the rest of the community now is going to have to deal with it.

Look at it this way. You know how whenever someone like me states a hard reality, and then twenty people pile on with the "Don't worry about it! You can do everything you put your mind to! Be positive!" mantra? We, as indies, encourage each other an aweful lot to ignore reality and focus on the positive. Forget the fact that the majority of self published books sell less than 200 copies. Amanda H sells 200 books an hour! Forget about getting a good cover! Look at so-and-so's books the covers suck but he still sells! Don't worry if you don't have money for marketing! Just write another book and you will find an audience!

That blinders mentality; the need to look at only the positive and ignore anything potentially negative, is NOT unique to self publishing. It permeates are culture. The person in the sales meeting who addresses the real problems with a plan? They don't get the promotions. Sometimes, they get demoted or fired. Somebody probably brought up the subject and was ignored, or thought about it but was too scared to say anything. The same thing that keeps folks here from addressing reality is the same thing that keeps companies from doing it.

And what are you going to argue? "Well, they should have known we would be unprofessional and thus thought ahead?" They were being POSITIVE, positive that we would police ourselves. Positive that we would self regulate. Now they realize that is not happening. No uniform code of conduct has emerged. No self-regulatory group has kicked in. It's the Wild West, and everyone is drunk and has loaded weapons.

Yes, it was stupid of them to not expect this. But really, what does it say about us if we thought they would?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Besides which, MOST of us here are being penalized for SELF-REGULATING. We have clearly marked our work as erotica or erotica in both description and title.


Exactly. It looks as if B&N took the sample off anything labeled "erotica" or "erotic," presumably because this made it easy for B&N to find them. So essentially, authors who were trying to clearly mark their books are being punished for it.

By the way, the only erotica book left in the PubIt Top Ten (the actual list of bestsellers, not the "bestseller list") is _Game For Love._


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Besides which, MOST of us here are being penalized for SELF-REGULATING. We have clearly marked our work as erotica or erotica in both description and title. I have put 18+ warnings in all of my descriptions and on the very first page of every book sampled. Because we were trying to do what BN did not, now we're being targeting for doing their job for them.


Thank you! You're taking the words out of my mouth. And now they're penalizing us for it.


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## Lynn Mixon (Jan 2, 2011)

While I'm not in your shoes, yet, my erotic romance book will be coming out in a few months, so I'm going to be in them soon enough. I was thinking about this last night and wondered, if this is limited to PubIt, then couldn't you create a co-op publishing company to shield yourselves? Everyone pay some nominal fee for the costs of setting it up and go like any small press.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

Terry Mixon said:


> While I'm not in your shoes, yet, my erotic romance book will be coming out in a few months, so I'm going to be in them soon enough. I was thinking about this last night and wondered, if this is limited to PubIt, then couldn't you create a co-op publishing company to shield yourselves? Everyone pay some nominal fee for the costs of setting it up and go like any small press.


And THIS is what someone else mentioned upthread. And this is why as someone else mentioned retailers have a certain amount of faith in traditional publishers that they don't have in indies. When a retailer goes to a traditional publisher with this sort of stuff, the traditional publisher either makes neccessary changes to the presentation of the product OR they accept the retailers decisions. I work in contract packaging, and some of our customers are publishers. Do you know that many of them have special covers made JUST for WalMart? There are some romance titles that will have a different cover for the Walmart book than for the regular bookstore version. Because WalMart says "Hey, we want to stock this book, but the cover is too raunchy to be sitting on the check out aisle."

But indies instead look for ways to game the system. They remove the "erotica" tags from their books to try to get them unflagged. They change the book title and pretend it is a new book. They think about setting up fake publishing houses to "trick" B&N.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But indies instead look for ways to game the system. They remove the "erotica" tags from their books to try to get them unflagged. They change the book title and pretend it is a new book. They think about setting up fake publishing houses to "trick" B&N.


Not sure if you were speaking more generically on this point, Julie, but I don't think Terry was talking about setting up a fake publishing house.

For the record, Terry, I don't think that's a bad idea if it would provide a person who would deal with B&N, Amazon, etc. on behalf of the group and also screen books to make sure there wasn't peto stuff, beastiality or what-have-you in the books represented.

OH!! Also, perhaps people wouldn't have to "game the system" if B&N would actually, oh, I don't know... COMMUNICATE with their vendors? I see the measures being taken as people trying to figure out WTF is going on. If B&N would just up and SAY what the policy is, perhaps people would try to conform to it. Crazy idea, I know...


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

Arkali said:


> OH!! Also, perhaps people wouldn't have to "game the system" if B&N would actually, oh, I don't know... COMMUNICATE with their vendors? I see the measures being taken as people trying to figure out WTF is going on. If B&N would just up and SAY what the policy is, perhaps people would try to conform to it. Crazy idea, I know...


Look, I have agreed repeatedly that they have gone about this the wrong way. I agree that there should be better communication. These are no-brainers. But the real issue is not why is BN being stupid. The real issue is why would anyone allow their business to be so dependent on a retailer?

I'm not on the top sellers list of any one site. But my books sell on over thirty DIFFERENT sites. If one site goes down, does something stupid, stops paying, or whatever it has only the most minor impact on my business. I just redirect customers elsewhere. I don't chase BN's customers or Amazon's customers. I go out and find my own. Many people here have the business model that depends on selling someone on a book the first time they click on it at a retailer, and the only way they find your book is if you are on X or Y lists from the retailer. So yes, if your sales depend on visibility on BNs site, this is all dramatic.

My business model is based on selling the book to a customer and then them going and buying it. For most people, their BN or Amazon page is the first interaction a customer has with their book. For my company, the Amazon page or BN page or whatever is the LAST step. By the time they land on the retailer page, the customer has already made the decision to buy the book. People aren't finding my book on Amazon. They are finding it through press releases and advertising on target market specific sites and through my various other projects.

I'd rather sell 50 books a month on thirty different sites than 1,000 books a month on one. Those numbers won't put me on the topsellers list of any one site, but they also won't make me a slave to the wimps of any one retailer.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Beth O said:


> I hope this works. Honestly, the censorship is really getting out of hand. Yes, they are private companies and can choose to sell what they want. And if it is the new policy to not sell erotica then apply it across the board to all authors (including the traditionally published). But they won't do it because they make tons of money off of erotica. So they take these halfway measures in an attempt to placate the people who don't like it, but it won't work because those people won't be satisfied with the halfway measures, and you all are caught in the cross-fire. Grrrr, it just pisses me off.


100% agreed. I don't write erotica either, but this makes me very mad. It's complete BS. If you're going to remove the sampling from erotic books due to a desire to protect the under-18's, then it needs to be removed across the board from all erotic works, including those from the Big6.

But removing the erotic works from the bestseller lists altogether? Unacceptable.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I'd be fine if only adults could read adult samples. That would be much better, honestly. I'd rather not have kids reading what I write. It wasn't meant for them.
> 
> BN and Amazon both should just be honest with themselves and the world that people read and want to buy adult books and make them easy to find for people who want them, but restricted to minors. It isn't rocket science to set it up that way. There are lots of independent publishers who do it already.


It seems easy enough to find the erotica. I don't think that's the problem. All they did was remove sampling. It's not really different from buying a paper book that doesn't have the "look inside" option.

But yeah, they could have been smarter and had an opt-in option at account creation time that was linked to an age verifier. And if you didn't opt in, you wouldn't even be able to see erotic titles, much less sample them. Make them invisible to people who don't opt in for them. That would have worked, mostly. There would still be a problem of people trying to game the system and not mark their books as erotica.

But they didn't and now BN may be perceiving a problem, if that is what this is all about.

Amazon and BN are going to have to adapt. I suspect we will see a flood of self-publishing as the ebook market grows and more people read articles about success stories and how-to articles that show how easy it is. This time next year there could easily be 3-4 times as many indie books being published, which means it's more likely that irresponsible books will be trying to get pushed through Pubit and Amazon's service.

There might even be a tipping point where there are so many indie books being submitted and there is so much human intervention being needed to inspect them, and the resulting sales per title on average are low enough that it becomes too expensive for Amazon and BN to continue not charging a fee for self-publishing.

It's all new. No one knows. Amazon and BN are figuring things out as they go along.


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But indies instead look for ways to game the system. They remove the "erotica" tags from their books to try to get them unflagged. They change the book title and pretend it is a new book. They think about setting up fake publishing houses to "trick" B&N.


Where? Who? All the conversation I've seen here is about how folks are not trying to game the system.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Perhaps B&N has data that indicates it can make the same total revenue from erotica without the independents.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Oh my lord, this thread is getting appalling fast.

I don't agree that anyone should game the system, no. I think most people are genuinely perplexed as to why PubIt romance (and yes, I'm saying romance) is being targeted. I looked back at my tags and my categories last night. I picked Time Travel and Paranormal for both of mine. My tags do not say 'erotic' anywhere, but I still got my excerpt removed. There is not even kissing in my excerpts! It's all plot setup. So I guess I am puzzled as to why people feel the need to come over here and tell us what equates to 'Suck it up, buttercup'. 

What if B&N hid all the samples of Christian books and sorted them out of the lists? Are we still okay with samples being removed? But because I have a dude's naked chest on my book, I am apparently wearing a scarlet letter and should spend my time saying "Gee, I'm sure glad B&N didn't pull me entirely! Blessings! Counting them!"

Speaking as someone who has been skipped by retailers before (Wal-Mart and Target elected not to carry my third paranormal with Pocket), yes, the publisher accepts the decision of the retailer because they can't FORCE them to carry a book. But the consequences are still devastating for the author, who turned out the same product as last time, in good faith, but now is being told that this one isn't 'acceptable'. If we're unhappy, we don't have to be silent. 

It's a discussion board. We're discussing.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

I would also like to say that while I'm sad/disappointed that we're having sales tools removed from our books on PubIt, it's not enough to make me pick up my toys and go home. It sucks, yes, but there continue to be other avenues to sell.

What I find REALLY upsetting about the whole thing is that we cannot discuss this being removed without people being quick to pounce over on this thread and tell us how we're overreacting and we're lucky that we got away with peddling whatever we're peddling for so long and the anti-romance sentiment that seems very pervasive in comments, even if it's not outright stated.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Then they've been listening to the Big 6 tell them lies and not looking at the real numbers.


^^ This.


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> What I find REALLY upsetting about the whole thing is that we cannot discuss this being removed without people being quick to pounce over on this thread and tell us how we're overreacting and we're lucky that we got away with peddling whatever we're peddling for so long and the anti-romance sentiment that seems very pervasive in comments, even if it's not outright stated.


This. I'll wait for the same "suck it up, cupcake" undercurrent when it happens to another genre.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

I think people trying to adopt a neutral tone are being categorized as not being supportive and thereby subtly hostile to erotica. I don't think that's the case, though. People are trying to look at it from BN's perspective to make a guess as to why this is being done.

It is crazy how this is being applied, though -- in fact crazy enough that I wonder if it might be a glitch. I just did a search for bondage and this title came up:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Bondage-Hotel/Charles-Graham/e/9781936173099/?itm=2&USRI=bondage

The cover would certainly offend some and the sample button is still there. They are a small press and have an ISBN so they may be listed with BN through some other method than Pubit, and that may be the only difference that explains why they still have a sample button. Or it could simply be that BN hasn't gotten around to them yet. Who knows?

So would writers be happy if at account creation there was an option to opt-in to sampling of adult content? I think it needs to be an opt-in rather than an opt-out.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Dear Author just picked it up:
http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2011/03/03/is-pubit-stripper-samples-of-erotic-romances/


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Is it for erotic authors only or for others too?  There seem to be some problem with march sales too.


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## Lynn Mixon (Jan 2, 2011)

Arkali said:


> Not sure if you were speaking more generically on this point, Julie, but I don't think Terry was talking about setting up a fake publishing house.
> 
> For the record, Terry, I don't think that's a bad idea if it would provide a person who would deal with B&N, Amazon, etc. on behalf of the group and also screen books to make sure there wasn't peto stuff, beastiality or what-have-you in the books represented.


Thanks, I wasn't suggesting gaming the system. I would expect if folks set up a co-op they would make sure to police their material and the folks that are members. Set their own guidelines the members would adhere to for books represented by the co-op.

What I was suggesting is more like the comment on Wal-Mart needing different covers. The co-op would be a way for individuals to be part of a publishing house instead of being all lumped under PubIt.

Let me stress again, I wasn't suggesting a way to game the system. Other groups of authors, small publishers, don't have their books automatically treated badly. Surely there is a way for those being lumped together by PubIt to take steps to protect their businesses. In my mind, that's not a trick or a deception since they would be policing themselves, like a small publisher.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"What if B&N hid all the samples of Christian books and sorted them out of the lists?"_

That would also be their decision and all the same observations would hold. Same with any genre. I fully epect both B&N and Amazon to initiate more active management of their offerings. This is an amazing experiment.

Apple has some passive constraints on uploading to their platform. One needs an Apple computer, ISBN, and there is a minimal application. Those aren't particularly difficult obstacles, but I suspect they keep many folks from uploading. I don't know if Apple has erotica. I'll check when I get back to my iPad.

Since I expect tighter restrictions on all uploads in the future, and a purging of existing offerings, it's important to study what they are doing. The same thing will be coming to Christian, Romance, Mysteries, Thrillers, and non-fiction. We will all be effected. I don't subscribe to the notion that these folks are caught flat-footed by events, nor do I see much evidence corporations are stupid. It might be wise to consider they are doing exactly what they intend to do and realize the potential risks.

Selena mentioned they might be trying to get rid of erotica altogether. That scenario is worth serious consideration.


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## Lynn Mixon (Jan 2, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> In terms of setting up a co-op to solve this issue - I'm already in one. We're a small publishing house, essentially, and we go through PubIt because they offer the best terms and the easiest platform use. Which still makes us vulnerable to this sort of thing. *sigh*


Okay, but the other erotica/erotic romance/romance presses aren't going through PubIt. If PubIt is targeting a presses' works, like your co-op, then wouldn't it make financial sense to go the same way? The terms might be less beneficial and might be harder to use, but now that you're taking a significant sales hit, wouldn't it be the time to reevaluate?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Terry Mixon said:


> Okay, but the other erotica/erotic romance/romance presses aren't going through PubIt. If PubIt is targeting a presses' works, like your co-op, then wouldn't it make financial sense to go the same way? The terms might be less beneficial and might be harder to use, but now that you're taking a significant sales hit, wouldn't it be the time to reevaluate?


I know I'm re-evaluating! I opted not to go through Smashwords for my most recent two. But if this doesn't shake out in a week, I'll just move my titles over to Smashwords. I prefer to go directly through PubIt so I can watch the sales grow (obsessive, I know) but I'd rather have stronger sales than just a handy widget to watch.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> And as for putting all your eggs into one basket, I had to laugh. That's a great idea when you're only selling 1000 books a month. When you're selling tens of thousands, you suddenly realize where the real numbers are. You CANNOT make up for the volume of sales that is offered by the largest distributors. We have our books listed on lots of different sites, but the payouts from those other sites are a pittance compared to Amazon/BN. You can't do business in ebooks without being a slave to corporations right now. In fact, they're the ONLY reason ebooks are doing "big business" at all.


Oh please. You sell erotica. Even before Amazon it accounted for 50% of the ebooks sold and people got bloody rich at it. There has always been a huge market for erotica in digital format. All you need to do is slap a half naked person on the cover to get attention. And no, that isn't a put down. That's the reality of the market. We've joked about it in these forums before. It isn't hard to sell. You have a huge advantage because erotica and romance readers are exceptionally loyal, both to individual publishers and individual authors. Your customers will FOLLOW YOU. Nobody is saying "sit down and shut up." I'm saying just redirect your damn customers elsewhere. Be proactive. Instead of waiting around for BN to get it's head out of its butt, do something constructive. Take your customers away from BN and if enough of you do that they will be forced to get their act together. Nobody can make you a slave unless you allow it. Take control of your business and redirect it. When BN's market share drops, they will figure out why.


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## Lynn Mixon (Jan 2, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> My business model is based on selling the book to a customer and then them going and buying it. For most people, their BN or Amazon page is the first interaction a customer has with their book. For my company, the Amazon page or BN page or whatever is the LAST step. By the time they land on the retailer page, the customer has already made the decision to buy the book. People arent finding my book on Amazon. They are finding it through press releases and advertising on target market specific sites and through my various other projects.
> 
> Id rather sell 50 books a month on thirty different sites than 1,000 books a month on one. Those numbers won't put me on the topsellers list of any one site, but they also won't make me a slave to the wimps of any one retailer.


I certainly agree that authors should be trying to grow their readership on every platform they can, but I also want to point out the folks complaining here and looking for answers from BN or other solutions have an existing market base they want to protect from erosion.

In a perfect world, we would have the load spread on many platforms. In reality readership can blossom on one platform over another. There is no shame in trying to deal with a threat to your livelihood while trying to grow your readership elsewhere. Without gaming the system or tricking anyone.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

jillmyles said:


> Oh my lord, this thread is getting appalling fast.
> 
> I don't agree that anyone should game the system, no. I think most people are genuinely perplexed as to why PubIt romance (and yes, I'm saying romance) is being targeted. I looked back at my tags and my categories last night. I picked Time Travel and Paranormal for both of mine. My tags do not say 'erotic' anywhere, but I still got my excerpt removed. There is not even kissing in my excerpts! It's all plot setup. So I guess I am puzzled as to why people feel the need to come over here and tell us what equates to 'Suck it up, buttercup'.
> 
> ...


What she said.

It is totally unreasonable to throw around the words "gaming the system" and "irresponsible" about those of us discussing this problem. A bias against romance--yes, romance, not bestiality porn--is showing through.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Oh please. You sell erotica. Even before Amazon it accounted for 50% of the ebooks sold and people got bloody rich at it. There has always been a huge market for erotica in digital format. All you need to do is slap a half naked person on the cover to get attention. And no, that isn't a put down.


OK, this thread has officially jumped the pissed off shark.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Even before Amazon it accounted for 50% of the ebooks sold and people got bloody rich at it.


Is that envy I detect there?


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## Lynn Mixon (Jan 2, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> The only other option at this point is Smashwords. Which isn't a great option, but would, as you say, still allow sampling. At least... so far.


But is that really true? Elora's Cave is PubIt? Samhain? If not, they use their "small press" status to get submitted or listed differently. That is what I am suggesting for the co-op. Admittedly, I don't know the facts or the limitations, but that shouldn't keep up from trying to find alternate answers.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> All you need to do is slap a half naked person on the cover to get attention. And no, that isn't a put down.


How exactly is this NOT a putdown?


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Oh please. You sell erotica. Even before Amazon it accounted for 50% of the ebooks sold and people got bloody rich at it. There has always been a huge market for erotica in digital format. All you need to do is slap a half naked person on the cover to get attention. And no, that isn't a put down. That's the reality of the market. We've joked about it in these forums before. It isn't hard to sell. You have a huge advantage because erotica and romance readers are exceptionally loyal, both to individual publishers and individual authors. Your customers will FOLLOW YOU. Nobody is saying "sit down and shut up." I'm saying just redirect your d*mn customers elsewhere. Be proactive. Instead of waiting around for BN to get it's head out of its butt, do something constructive. Take your customers away from BN and if enough of you do that they will be forced to get their act together. Nobody can make you a slave unless you allow it. Take control of your business and redirect it. When BN's market share drops, they will figure out why.


Insulting comments aside, you're once again telling people to stop doing something no one is actually doing. I'm sorry you don't think we're entitled to use this discussion board to discuss things. At least the reason for that opinion has become clear.

-- Flouncing off to make an easy million off a half naked cover --


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

Tina Folsom said:


> Is that envy I detect there?


Envy? No. Admiration. You guys don't get it. You have one of the most loyal readerships of any genre, and they were early adopters of the digital format. Other genres would KILL for that type of perfect storm. Your readers are loyal to you, not the store you sell through. Don't let a single retailer make you their slave! Instead of waiting on BN to get their act together, be proactive. Use your collective strength. Take advantage of the genre's brand loyalty. You could release a group press release.



> Due to unclarified issues with the BN preview system, the following authors have deactivated their books from BN and are now supporting (Amazon, Smashwords, whatever site you want to redirect). Hopefully this issue will be resolved soon and these titles can return to BN.
> 
> insert lists of authors/publishers here


No accusations. No conspiracy theories. A simple statement of fact that comes across professional and disinterested. Your customers will harass BN FOR YOU! You won't have to lift a finger. THAT is the kind of power you guys have in your genre. What is making me crazy is not envy, but the fact that you don't recognize it.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You could release a group press release.
> 
> No accusations. No conspiracy theories. A simple statement of fact that comes across professional and disinterested. Your customers will harass BN FOR YOU! You won't have to lift a finger.


Gotta say that's an AWESOME idea, Julie.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Fixing to put the link to the Dear Author article on my FB page.  No idea if anyone will see it or share it, but jeezle pete.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Yeah? If it's so damned easy, why aren't you doing it?


Because I don't enjoy the genre and would not enjoy writing for it.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> How exactly is this NOT a putdown?


Because it is part of the genre's strong branding. That statement is no different that saying you can put a zombie on a cover and there is an entire subculture that will buy the book without even reading the preview (its called survival horror). Put a picture of Dora the Explorer on a children's book, and kids will want it without even knowing what is inside. It is the benefit of strong branding. it is a benefit of your genre.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

As someone that actually is a buyer of the discussed books, I prefer buying them from the big guys like Amazon. If I had a Nook it would be BN. Why? I can never figure out what format does or does not have DRM and I like having my bought books in one place. I even buy Ellora's cave from Amazon not their site for same reasons. I just want it easy. 

Why should a reader of romance/erotic romance/erotica not get the same service than someone that likes reading horror, xian, fantasy etc. I want to buy my books at the same places then everyone else. Period. 

So to say that all readers will just follow to some other site to buy all their stuff is just not true. Some, sure. But there will be a loss of sales, period. Authors shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get their stuff to their readers. Its not a level playing field if they are not at the big guys. 

Again, if this was affecting any other genre there would be outrage and support from authors everywhere. But with R/E authors get patted on the head and told not to whine. Yes, the undertones are easy to see. It isn't the first time here and elsewhere I have seen it. 

And the dig on the covers about slapping on a half naked person? Yes a dig, not even a thinly veiled one at that.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

jessicamorse said:


> Insulting comments aside...


What I have said so far is:

1. You have a HUGE market share
2. Your genre has strong branding
3. You have a loyal readership that is loyal to authors and publishers of erotic fiction and romance
4. You have the power to direct that readership to where you want them to shop without playing the victim card

At what point have I insulted you?

This thread started out as an accusation of censorship on the part of BN. The original tone of the thread made it very clear that the OP and others felt they were being personally singled out as part of some conspiracy or something. Some people then mentioned playing around with their tags. A few other people have talked about workaround to get the previews back up on BN. And all I've said is why bother? If BN is being stupid (which, again, I have repeatedly said was the case!) instead of taking it as a personal affront just use your collective power to redirect your buyers. BN will get the hint and get their crap together, or another site will see an opportunity and do it instead of them.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Because it is part of the genre's strong branding. That statement is no different that saying you can put a zombie on a cover and there is an entire subculture that will buy the book without even reading the preview (its called survival horror).


Let me put it this way. All my erotic romance covers feature half-naked guys, and I disagree that just anyone can put up an erotic romance with half-naked guys and sell as many copies as I do. I don't argue that I'd sell fewer books without the covers (which are, as you say, part of the branding for the genre). However, perhaps I'm egotistical, but I'd like to think that my writing skills have something to do with my sales. But anyone who wants to test out your get-rich-quick theory can certainly try it by writing deliberate crap, putting a half-naked guy on it, and seeing how many copies they sell *shrugs*.


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> At what point have I insulted you?


_*Oh please. You sell erotica.* Even before Amazon it accounted for 50% of the ebooks sold and people got bloody rich at it. There has always been a huge market for erotica in digital format. *All you need to do is slap a half naked person on the cover to get attention.* And no, that isn't a put down. That's the reality of the market. We've joked about it in these forums before. *It isn't hard to sell.* You have a huge advantage because erotica and romance readers are exceptionally loyal, both to individual publishers and individual authors. Your customers will FOLLOW YOU. Nobody is saying "sit down and shut up." I'm saying just redirect your d*mn customers elsewhere. Be proactive. Instead of waiting around for BN to get it's head out of its butt, do something constructive. Take your customers away from BN and if enough of you do that they will be forced to get their act together. Nobody can make you a slave unless you allow it. Take control of your business and redirect it. When BN's market share drops, they will figure out why. _

Translation:

1. You have no right to complain as you write erotica.
2. You don't even have to be literate to write erotica. Just a half naked person on the cover is enough.
3. it's EASY to sell erotica.
4. Therefore STFU, you whiners.


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## Mica Jade (Mar 2, 2011)

I just posted my experience with the "button" issue over at Dear Author. Here's my experience thus far with PubIt:

My erotic romance novella, Love's Rise, went live on PubIt on Monday night without a download sample button nor a cover image. I thought it might be an upload glitch until Tina Folsom's thread in the PubIt Community board asking if it was occurring to anyone else. On Tuesday I changed the age group of the book from "Mature Audiences" to "General Adult" and sent PubIt support the following email:

Hi &#8230; thank you for uploading my recent book, Love's Rise (EAN: 2940012205322). However, the cover image is not showing on the product page. Also, the sample download button is not showing either. Please let me know if I can help with getting this resolved. I would hate for a customer to buy my book without the cover image or the ability to sample the book prior to purchase. Thank you for the opportunity to partner with PubIt. Take care. Mica Jade

Within 3 hours both the cover image AND the sample download were live on my product page and still remain live: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Loves-Rise/Mica-Jade/e/2940012205322/?itm=1&USRI=mica+jade

I'm not sure if the email or changing the age group to "General Audiences" is what helped - maybe both, maybe neither. Whatever the case, it has been beyond frustrating for too many of us.

Mica Jade


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Oh please. You sell erotica.


-----



Selena_Kitt said:


> Yeah? If it's so damned easy, why aren't you doing it?


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

LKRigel said:


> -----


Which one of us is Storm and which one is Wonder Woman?


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Which one of us is Storm and which one is Wonder Woman?


Who likes to be on top? :~|


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

LKRigel said:


> Who likes to be on top? :~|


   

Look, in all seriousness, let's just call a truce. I admit to being snarky (but so was Selena with her little "well, if I was *only* selling a 1000 a month" comment.) My only point was for people not to look at the thing as a personal attack and approach it as a business person would. We are all in agreement that BN has dropped the ball in terms of communication. I never said don't discuss it. I never said suck it up. I just said not to be a victim. Change the language of the discussion from "why are they picking on us?" to "How can we adapt to the situation?"

I still thing a communal press release, written in a nuetral voice, would be a boon for everyone involved and put pressure on BN without being confrontational. While controversy is great for short term publicity, it is bad for long term business relationships. NOW is a great time to present a clear headed, professional, and calm front without being antagonistic. If you raise a stink, all it does is further divide all parties into their respective camps.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> In fairness, I meant our collective (Excessica). But yeah, it was snark-to-snark there...
> 
> A press release isn't a bad idea. Anyone who knows how want to do one?


*raises hand*



> Undisclosed problems with the preview function on select adult themed ebooks sold through Barnes and Noble's PubIt program have led several top selling authors to temporarily disable their books through the site.
> 
> According to Selena Kitt, a member of the popular adult ebook collective Excessica, Barnes and Noble has disabled without further explanation the preview function on many romance and erotica titles sold through the PubIt program. "Our readers can no longer download the samples for our titles, causing confusion in the marketplace. Barnes and Noble has not been forthcoming with information on this problem, leaving us with little choice but to move out business elsewhere until this is resolved."
> 
> ...


I personally WOULD deactivate the books until BN responds. In the release about, there are not attacks or accusations, but neutral statements of fact, but the inference is clear. Then everyone post the identical release to their websites, and post it at as many romance/erotica themed websites you can find. If you get me the names of the publishers that want to be included and the links to the redirect sites, I'll help distribute it as well.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I'm still (personally) selling $2000 a day on BN. (and that's decreased by 1/3 since they took the sample buttons). No way I'm deactivating those titles. It would be fiscally foolish and would create too much damage to my bottom line and to overall rankings.


:blink: Ummm... are you a millionaire yet?


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I'm still (personally) selling $2000 a day on BN. (and that's decreased by 1/3 since they took the sample buttons). No way I'm deactivating those titles. It would be fiscally foolish and would create too much damage to my bottom line and to overall rankings.


Sometimes you have to be willing to walk away. And it is something I have done twice in my writing career. Ironically, both times it ended up increasing my business. The first time was over a disagreement I was having with a rpg retailer who had went into a rather sexist direction with the marketing for the site. After it was made crystal clear that they weren't really "concerned about offending chick gamers" I pulled my products (they have since gone out of business. Imagine that lol). After I announced I had pulled my products, I saw a jump in sales. A lot of them were people that didn't even normally buy my products, but wanted to show support. The second time was most recently, when I pulled my print books off of Lulu.com. Again, after the announcement I got a huge boost in sales of print titles from people who wanted to show support. In both cases, many of them ended up becoming regular customers.

Obviously you need to do what us best for your situation. I'm just of the mind that if you as one person are making that much, BN is making a like amount off of you. They will notice a drop in sales if enough people pull their products and will be forced to do something. And you have the added benefit of showing support to another site and flexing your market muscle.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

It's the mature audiences flag.

I went in and changed mine to General Audiences - Adult (because mine aren't erotica). Didn't contact customer service or anything. Just changed it and waited.

The samples were back on within a half hour. They're DEFINITELY filtering.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

jillmyles said:


> It's the mature audiences flag.
> 
> I went in and changed mine to General Audiences - Adult (because mine aren't erotica). Didn't contact customer service or anything. Just changed it and waited.
> 
> The samples were back on within a half hour. They're DEFINITELY filtering.


YUP, me too. Samples ahoy!

Thanks to Jill, Ellen, Selena, and other writers at Dear Author for this clue and confirmation.

This is not the end of this issue, obviously. It's not like this is the first time adult content has been available on the Internet. I, for instance, got my first date in college via the earlyintertubes--in 1988.

(He was not very adult, however. Nor was the guy I snagged in '94--only 20--but we got married anyway )


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

All of this personally reinforces my need to get my books on ARe (and back on Smashwords, I guess). HEH. Guess what I'll be doing this weekend. Formatting. Weee!

Selena, are you on ARe? I've heard sales are really good through there, once you're past the initial painful setup.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

jillmyles said:


> It's the mature audiences flag.


Jill,
all my sample buttons are back, but I still have my books on mature audiences only --- I have they feeling they all came back within the last hour (I was out grocery shopping). Have they finally heard us?

Selena, I don't believe you would have changed the mature audience flag on all your books so quickly, yet yours seem to have their buttons back too.

Well, let's hope this is not just another fluke ...


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## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Excuse my ignorance - what is ARe? (Or ARE depending on who's post I'm quoting...)

-Joe


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Oh, maybe so? Even better.

I know Jane Litte contacted a few people at PubIt directly and asked them to make a statement. I am guessing someone higher up the food chain flipped a switch.

Yay!


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## Beth O (Jul 9, 2010)

Jnassise said:


> Excuse my ignorance - what is ARe? (Or ARE depending on who's post I'm quoting...)
> 
> -Joe


Yeah, I was wondering about this too.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Excuse my ignorance - what is ARe? (Or ARE depending on who's post I'm quoting...)
> 
> -Joe


All Romance eBooks = ARe. I've never shopped there, but I have heard it's vital for international readers. I believe they are also OmniLit (for general fiction).

Their guidelines originally stated that you had to have at least 10 titles up to participate in the store, but someone on another board said that they opened it up to self-publishers recently, and that if you pub romance, you definitely need to set up shop there.

(I wonder if this should be another thread? I hate to hijack this one)


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Jnassise said:


> Excuse my ignorance - what is ARe? (Or ARE depending on who's post I'm quoting...)
> 
> -Joe


All Romance ebooks


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Hallelujah, mine are back too.  

Can I just say a huge "thank you" to those of you who complained, offered advice, took action, and generally helped us out here?  it's greatly appreciated.


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## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Thank you both.  Appreciate the info.


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## Mica Jade (Mar 2, 2011)

They're Back On! Yea!!!


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

Hooray for samples!



Selena_Kitt said:


> The question is... now what? because they're not going to stop here.


This.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

Damn! The download sample button just disappeared on several of my books again. WTF?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I was right in the middle of switching all my books to "general audiences!" ROFL
> 
> But yep, they're back. Obviously, between Dear Author and phone calls from PubIt publishers and reporters, they decided to put the buttons back.
> 
> The question is... now what? because they're not going to stop here.


I really am looking this weekend at diversifying. I was lazy and just put my stuff up on Kindle/Nook because it required the least effort. This weekend, I'm going to get my stuff up on Smashwords so I can feed to all the other small places, and look at ARe. Eggs going into multiple baskets.



Tina Folsom said:


> d*mn! The download sample button just disappeared on several of my books again. WTF?


Oh lord.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

They should institute an opt-in system for sampling adult material. I did a search for some x-rated stuff and found some stuff parents definitely wouldn't want kids seeing. One book was ranked in the 6000s overall and it had incest sex, bestiality, and it gets worse from there.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"One book was ranked in the 6000s overall and it had incest sex, bestiality, and it gets worse from there."_

That makes for an interesting system design problem. The author is free to tag that as Adult, Romance, or Mystery. The computers won't be able to catch it for opt-in.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> d*mn! The download sample button just disappeared on several of my books again. WTF?


Tina, I looked and saw sample buttons on all yours. Are you certain you're not looking at cached versions of the pages?


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## Mica Jade (Mar 2, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I'm keeping mine on "general adult" until further notice...


*ditto*


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

HOORAY!!!!!! So glad the sample buttons are back up!

Now if my sales / rankings would go back up, that would be really, really awesome too.  

Bella


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Now if my sales / rankings would go back up, that would be really, really awesome too.


Amen to that-- for all of us!


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> Amen to that-- for all of us!


Rooting for everyone!!! Wouldn't it be nice to see a really, really awesome weekend at BN to make up for this week?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I wish you all fantastic sales this weekend, and beyond.


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

Tina Folsom said:


> Jill,
> all my sample buttons are back, but I still have my books on mature audiences only --- I have they feeling they all came back within the last hour (I was out grocery shopping). Have they finally heard us?


Mine are back as well, thank you to everyone who knew who to write to get it fixed. I am new to all of this and didn't even know where to start. I didn't change my mature audiences only either.


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## MiaHeart (Feb 10, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> From your keyboard to the readers' ears...c'mon Nookies, you know you want to buy some erotica for the weekend!


My Nookie will think about it. Is there a hysterical laugh smiley face button?


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

Atunah said:


> I wish you all fantastic sales this weekend, and beyond.


Thank you!


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> From your keyboard to the readers' ears...c'mon Nookies, you know you want to buy some erotica for the weekend!


Who wouldn't?


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, this says one of three things to me:

1)  It was a glitch.
2) They did it on purpose, but the backlash was more than they cared for, so they changed it back.
3)  They're working on a filtering mechanism to do with adult tags and PubIt authors, and this was the result of them dinking with it.

The distinctions are fine:
1) Whatever happened was an accident - don't worry.
2) We meant to do that, and we were going to call it a day, but too much heat came down, so we're re-thinking.
3) Mostly the same as 2, but with the distinction being that they never planned on it being a final fix, it was just a step.

Normally, I'd scoff and say if they're working on something they'd do it on test servers before it went live, but I'm getting the impression that their IT department wouldn't know a test server if it smacked them upside the head.  They will, of course, claim that it was number 1, regardless of what the true answer is.  Ladies (and gents) - I would ABSOLUTELY continue on with whatever plans you have to diversify - I don't think this is the last of this, though I really hope that it was "just a glitch".


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I'm going to write cozy mysteries.


Really, really cozy.

(Oh Miss Marple!)


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _"One book was ranked in the 6000s overall and it had incest sex, bestiality, and it gets worse from there."_
> 
> That makes for an interesting system design problem. The author is free to tag that as Adult, Romance, or Mystery. The computers won't be able to catch it for opt-in.


Yes, I think the ability of people to literally upload any kind of text, no matter how offensive, is going to require human intervention and added expense on the part of Amazon and B&N. No doubt they will pass the cost on to indie publishers in the long run.


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## DonnaBurgess (Jan 1, 2011)

Thanks! This worked. I'm not the seller some of you guys are, but I went for between 10-15 a day to 1-3 without the samples. Never knew that would make such a huge difference.


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## Tina Folsom (Sep 22, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> Tina, I looked and saw sample buttons on all yours. Are you certain you're not looking at cached versions of the pages?


Ellen, they are back --- figured out what happened. I made a change to the description and since it still had the mature audiences flag in, when I re-published, it took the button away. When I went back in and switched it to general adult audiences, the button came back.
go figure.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> From your keyboard to the readers' ears...c'mon Nookies, you know you want to buy some erotica for the weekend!


Oh - Selena - they're calling your name over here:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,55473.0.html


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Gretchen Galway said:


> Really, really cozy.
> 
> (Oh Miss Marple!)


 :snerk: Oh, hell...


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

Gretchen Galway said:


> Really, really cozy.
> 
> (Oh Miss Marple!)


LOL!!!


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> yep. I've decided, I'm done with erotica.
> 
> I'm going to write cozy mysteries.
> 
> Or something.


You can't go wrong with fantasy. I mean, heck. My book ranks under 30,000 on Amazon, and under 50,000 at BN! That's like 2-3 sales PER DAY!!



/sarcasm

Glad to see y'all got your sample buttons back!


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

jillmyles said:


> It's the mature audiences flag.
> 
> I went in and changed mine to General Audiences - Adult (because mine aren't erotica). Didn't contact customer service or anything. Just changed it and waited.
> 
> The samples were back on within a half hour. They're DEFINITELY filtering.


I don't think that's the flag.

I've not made any changes to _Destiny Entwined_, and they started allowing people to sample it.


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## jesscscott (Aug 5, 2009)

Glad to hear the sample buttons are returning!

I hope they return for mine soon. Some of my (non-erotic) books are still missing the sample button. Some of my erotic books have the sample button again. Mine seems to be very random.

I've written to the PubIt! team to notify them (again) about it. The reply I had in February, when I first wrote to them:

_Hi Jess,

Thanks for your question, and sorry it has taken us so long to get back
to you. We are aware of this issue and are working to fix it ASAP. So
sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks,
The PubIt! Team_


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Good article.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Erik Sherman covered the story.


That was some lazy reporting.



> Furthermore, according to the company's own listing of most popular PubIt! titles, erotica still claims three of the top 20 slots. Now, the sample blacklisting might make sense if B&N was concerned that underage readers could get access to racy material. But users have to sign in - meaning B&N knows your age - to download samples.


Uh, wrong. I just took all of two minutes to make a dummy account, search on "incest" and find some trashy novel with a sample button. B&N never once asked me for my age, and if they had, then what? If it's a kid wanting to sample porn, he says he's an adult.

If B&N's intent is to keep kids from downloading naughty samples, they need to link sampling to a credit card and they need controls for parents to turn off sampling for adult material, or even all material. I like the idea of even making the books themselves invisible. Do we really need our kids reading a description like this?



> Another Peter de Sade story of nasty family sex and torture that will grab your attention with its graphic description of brutal incestuous sex. Follow a day in the life of a trailer whore Becky from the moment she wakes up to her daddy banging her little sister to the end of the day when she helps her daddy torture her momma in the shed behind the trailer. In between, she lets her retarded brother have sex with her young daughter and finds herself on her all fours being mounted by a Great Dane. And lots more nasty sex is crammed between these events.


Turning off sampling doesn't make the above disappear. Barnes and Noble should make adult content an opt-in thing and filter it so it isn't even visible otherwise.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Holy....


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Barnes and Noble should make adult content an opt-in thing and filter it so it isn't even visible otherwise."_

They can't. The author of that book could tag it as Mystery/Psychological if he wants. The computer has no way to filter it on an opt-out program.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> That was some lazy reporting.


You and I are in agreement. Reporters don't actually "report" anymore. They just parrot back what people told them and add a "so-and-so could not be reached for comment" statement that implies they tried to actually work.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _"Barnes and Noble should make adult content an opt-in thing and filter it so it isn't even visible otherwise."_
> 
> They can't. The author of that book could tag it as Mystery/Psychological if he wants. The computer has no way to filter it on an opt-out program.


Yes. Until computer AI becomes sentient, it will take humans to police this stuff. That is an extra cost B&N and Amazon have been trying to avoid, but it looks like they will have to spend more money to police content properly. They'll probably take it out of the skin of Pubit users.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

How to pay for it? Charge a fee to upload a book to the platform.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> How to pay for it? Charge a fee to upload a book to the platform.


Yeah, I see that coming someday. Maybe soon. And if B&N was going to filter based on labels, that fee, whatever it might be, would pay for a staff person to inspect the book and give it a label of adult or general audience, something like that. That would be something the writer/publisher wasn't allowed to edit.

Amazon and B&N don't want to discourage the ebook market right now, and having a new supply of inexpensive ebooks from indies is a great way to build the ebook business. At some point that business will be well-established, though, and then Amazon and others may start putting up gates again to control quality and content. A great gate is a fee per book to publish. Great for them, of course.


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## jesscscott (Aug 5, 2009)

A quite simple and elegant solution for retailers would be to have a separate "adult-themed / smut" category (separate from the not-so-explicit / not-so-sexually-concentrated material available). And literary smut, literary porn, as well as erotic fiction, erotica, etc, can all be there. That way, everyone can have access to their own kink, and those not into anything sexual have no need to even come across the product pages in the first place. 

I suggested that on the contact/feedback form via authorcentral (Amazon) in the past. Maybe I'll do so again (and to B&N too, if necessary).


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

B&N could go through all kinds of work to keep the genre available. But is it reasonable to think they will? The profitability argument doesn't convince them to have a separate section in their stores. Nor does it convince many other stores to stock the books. Something else must be trumping the profitability potential.

If B&N announced a campaign to purge their site of "adult-themed / smut" what would Amazon do?


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

So that free sample did not disappear for some erotic authors.  The reason this thread was started.  But there have to be some way to keep kids away from such material.


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> The profitability argument doesn't convince them to have a separate section in their stores. Nor does it convince many other stores to stock the books.


It seems like you're suggesting they don't sell erotica in bookstores. They certainly do. And most have a section like every other genre of book.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> First we'd see how fast groups like the ALA and others could mobilize their members who believe in protecting intellectual freedom and guarding against the power of big corporations to control the media. And there would be a huge firestorm about whether or not removal of adult material for sale in the largest online book retailers in the country amounted to censorship, whether or not it was a free speech issue. And porn is a huge business for these retailers, amazon esp, BN secondarily. I think you're underestimating the market.


I don't think they'd gain any traction with free speech. Freedom of speech doesn't apply to businesses, only to the government.



Selena_Kitt said:


> Yes. It's something called a "parent."


LOL Amen.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Yes. It's something called a "parent."


Right, which is why an opt-in system would work. The parent would control that and the default would be adult content turned off.

You probably read that description I lifted from the incest novel I found. That's not even part of the sample, but from the product page. If parents read stuff like that and become concerned enough, they will put B&N on a blocked sites list . B&N certainly doesn't want that to happen. It's better to build in controls that parents can use. An opt-in would be helpful. Not full-proof, but better.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_" And there would be a huge firestorm about whether or not removal of adult material for sale in the largest online book retailers in the country amounted to censorship, whether or not it was a free speech issue."_

I agree it is both censoring and a denial of free speech.

Since B&N is a private company, it is free to censor as it chooses.

Since they are not a government organization, free speech guarantees don't apply.

I never underestimate the market, but I do observe there are no books similar to the one Asher highlighted in the B&N stores. I suggest something stronger than a demand for certain books is behind that. If the market for these books really had the power you suggest, we would see those books in the stores. Perhaps there is a stronger market force in play that accounts for the absence of books like Asher highlighted from the stores.

One may not like or agree with social mores, and might attribute them to bigots, prudes, and deadbeats, but it's worth recognizing they are a very powerful force in the market.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Can you give us a citation? Title/Author?

If they do exist, is that a powerful argument in favor of letting them exist on the online store? Just cite the book on the shelf and show how it is similar to the book Asher highlighted.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Here's the irony - they are on the shelves in BN stores, but BN pulled Olympia's entire catalog online. BN is far more concerned with their online "image" than they are with the actual content of the books and who gets their hands on them. Any kid could go into BN and pull an Olympia book off the shelves.
> 
> Here's an Olympia incest title still on BN's online store (it's a PB version). An author I've seen lots in BN that Olympia publishes is Dr. Garth Mundinger-Klow, who wrote such hits as Abducted And Ravished: The Sexual Allure of Kidnapping and Forced Love, Uncles And Nieces: The Fine Line Between Eros and Incest and The Bottom Dwellers: Scat Desire and Coprophilia. None of them are case studies.


But...but...he's a doctor! And his name is hyphenated!

Does Barnes and Noble have an adult section in their stores? I don't remember seeing one, but I don't look for those kinds of books normally.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

I've been thinking on this issue.  I'm thinking that if B&N (and Amazon) wanted to set up filters, they could.  Now, people have said that won't work because then people like Dr. What's-It can just put their stuff in a category marked as "Mystery" or whatever.  But easily enough, there can be three or four questions (with drop-downs so you have to select something):
- Does your work contain graphic violence?
- Does your work contain graphic sex?
- Does your work contain strong language?

So that will let customers filter based on those three factors.  Now - the penalty for lying on this?  Do it more than once (we'll give you the first one as an "oops") and we'll drop you as a vendor.  I would assume that authors have to give B&N and Amazon bank information and social security numbers, so blocking someone who tries to lie about the content of their books should be doable.

Honestly, I think Amazon and B&N both are going to have to do something like that if they want to continue selling self-published work without ticking off either the government, concerned customers, or authors, or all three.


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## Beth O (Jul 9, 2010)

Actually B&N (and Amazon) are both publicly traded companies.  While the First Amendment does not apply to them because they are not the government, they do have to answer to stockholders, and I'm sure there are stockholders on both sides of the issue.  But what stockholders most care about is money/profitability.  If erotica sells well and makes money for B&N, and I believe it does, then stockholders will not want B&N to stop carrying it.  But if certain interest groups were to, for example, start a boycott of B&N because they sold erotica, then stockholders might reconsider.  

Call me cynical, but I think money interest always win out in the end.  I don't think parental controls is a huge issue for any of the online retailers right now because most kids don't have ereaders (yes, I know they can read on their phones but I suspect most aren't focusing on that).  When ereaders become more prevalent among kids, I suspect some sort of parental controls system will be put in place, just like we have for TV and internet access.  Then the kids can spend their time figuring out how to bypass the parental controls without their parents even realizing it


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

So, I looked through the thread and didn't see an official answer, unless I missed it...why did some samples disappear and not others? Why did they disappear at all? Has B&N said anything?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"BN is far more concerned with their online "image" than they are with the actual content of the books and who gets their hands on them."_

Of course they are. And that is the most important thing to keep in mind with this issue. It's all subjective. This isn't an exercise in altruism. Their overall philosophy holds that continued market success depends on a good public image. In many ways it is image that brings in the customers. That's a nearly universal idea with companies. They and their pollsters and PR department define what that means.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

Can you get set up to take credit card transactions instead of paypal? You should check around - I don't think it's that hard to do.



jesscscott said:


> speaking about missing sample buttons / censorship -- my PayPal account has been suspended because i have "violated PayPal's Acceptable Use Policy."
> 
> official message within my PayPal account:
> 
> ...


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## jesscscott (Aug 5, 2009)

DanaW said:


> Can you get set up to take credit card transactions instead of paypal? You should check around - I don't think it's that hard to do.


I might do that sometime in future  For now, I'll continue working on both my non-erotic and erotic material.


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## jesscscott (Aug 5, 2009)

B&N's reply to my email:

===

Jess,

Unfortunately, eBooks in the Erotica category are not allowed to have a free sample.

Sincerely,

The PubIt! Team

===

In my email, I wrote that my *non*-erotic books were missing the sample download button too. Most of my books are still missing the button. I see other people's erotic books have the "sample" button, so I dunno what's up.

I'll try again next week. Gee whiz.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

My book, Learn Me Good, is decidedly NON-erotic.  Unless you count those chapters in the middle where I body surf in a banana hammock through a large tub of whip cream while speaking seductively and lighting scented candles.

Nevertheless, I no longer have a sample available for download on pubit either!  Do they have something against HUMOR (or lack thereof) as well?

Also, someone earlier mentioned contacting pubit phone support.  Could you share that number?  I've emailed [email protected]  a couple of times but gotten no response.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

So is B&N taking the samples off again?  I see a couple of the more extreme-type erotica books in the top 100 have no samples, but others still have them.

When did they send you that email, Jess?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

I just cross-checked mine and they are all there, so I don't think it's the same as what happened last time?

(she says hopefully)


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

My sample is still there, but I haven't sold a copy since the Troubles last time. (But I was only selling a handful before.)

If there is any rhyme to their reason, it might be the category/erotica designation in your self-reported upload section. Mine is just romance/contemporary. 

Or it's a clusterf***.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

For whatever reason, the contemporary category seems to be a really tough one to crack. My contemporary gets absolutely buried and doesn't sell as well as the others. I think Time Travel is a less competitive category than Contemporary, so those always do better. Go figure.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Thanks Selena! It was a labor of love...and I think I'm the only one that loves it. Lol. It is my worst seller. 

Also, I have noticed that my B&N sales were really flat for the first two weeks of March, but have picked up this week. Spring Break effect? Or everyone is back and ready to read again?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

My B&N sales are rather poor right now.  Time to write a new novella, maybe, although the last one didn't catch on at all *sighs*.  Oh, well, they don't all do well at first, and sometimes they suddenly catch fire and start selling, so I'll hope for some sales out of it yet.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

That totally reminds me, I need to get my books up on ARe. Heh. /lazy

As for me, my novella sells really well at 99 cents on both B&N and Amazon. My novels are a lot slower, but I'm hoping they catch on at some point. If not, well, I'm just going to have to write more darn novellas. Lol.


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## jesscscott (Aug 5, 2009)

EllenFisher said:


> So is B&N taking the samples off again? I see a couple of the more extreme-type erotica books in the top 100 have no samples, but others still have them.
> 
> When did they send you that email, Jess?


19 March 2011

Dear Publisher,

We would like to apologize for the confusion around addressing your question about samples.

The subject category that you have selected does not impact whether or not free samples of your titles show. In actuality, we have been unable to create an automated sample of your eBook due to some non-standard treatment in your ePub file. We are looking into creating a manual sample of your title to enable customers to preview your work before purchasing and hope to have a manual sample live early next week.

Again, we apologize for the confusion. Please let us know if you have any further questions.

Best wishes,

The PubIt! Team

=====

I'm not going to use the 'erotica' label from now on though (I'm switching to writing "contemporary fiction with erotic elements"!).


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> The subject category that you have selected does not impact whether or not free samples of your titles show. In actuality, we have been unable to create an automated sample of your eBook due to some non-standard treatment in your ePub file.


My, there must have been quite a few of us erotica writers with non-standard treatment in our ePub files there for a while. How extraordinary. 

Regardless, I'm very relieved to see this, and thank you for posting it.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

All this talk of "pubs" and "erotic" and "non-standard" and "treatments"--on "Pubit"--just cracks me up.

I have never taken off on BN, but I had a trickle that came to nothing for a few weeks. Today and yesterday I just got a sale. That at least told me it's visible to somebody.

Ellen, I read IN THE  MOOD (loved the guy) and think our stories have similar erotic content--which is to say, not erotica, just romance with hot sex scenes.

I've been thinking when I release my second title next month (full-length novel), I'll make more of a presence on the BN boards. See where that gets me.

Thanks everyone for posting your experiences with BN.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Ellen, I read IN THE MOOD (loved the guy) and think our stories have similar erotic content--which is to say, not erotica, just romance with hot sex scenes.


Thanks so much for the compliment, Gretchen.  However, I should clarify that my Ellen Fisher stories hardly sell on B&N at all, and they are not marked as erotica (though B&N did take the samples off a couple of them for some reason). It's the stories under my other name that have sold well there-- they're vanilla-ish, by most standards, but nevertheless erotic romance.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Gretchen Galway said:


> My sample is still there, but I haven't sold a copy since the Troubles last time. (But I was only selling a handful before.)***.


I think B&N sales are just going down since February. I really don't know the reason. Erotica or samples is not the reason for me. Mine are all self-help nonfiction.


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## seela connor (Apr 11, 2011)

I just wanted to add to this discussion.  I just had the sample disappeared experience with a non-erotic title.  I read the reponse from the pubit team about the ebook format.  I had uploaded the book in a word format, and the conversion had looked pretty nice.  But when I downloaded the epub file and ran it past epubcheck, it came up with errors!  So something in the auto-conversion tool wasn't working. 

(Just to clarify, the book had a sample button that didn't work on the web page and no sample was available when viewed on a nook or nookcolor.)

I hand-rolled a new epub ( not using bn's conversion tool ) and uploaded it.  Once the new file posted, the Sample option suddenly appeared on both the nook and the nookcolor!  The sample button on the webpage started working, too.

So that did seem to be the issue in my case.  Just FYI with anyone else struggling with this problem.


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