# Grammar Pet Peeves



## Cuechick

We are all avid readers, this much we all know is true. Still, I am amazed at some of the mistakes 
I see on some of the boards (not only this one...) but I also hate when people correct others grammar in a public forum. 
So, I never say anything. I just saw one of my biggest peeves on the amazon board and it inspired this post.
I admit I am far from perfect (I _need_ my spellcheck!) and hope to learn a thing or two by starting this discussion.

Here are my two biggest, both of which I have seen on the Amazon board very recently...

*1)* There is no such word as: *alot* it is *a lot*, two words.

*2)* You do not ask for "advi*s*e" this is a verb, as in "If you're looking for a great ereader, I would _advise_ you to buy a kindle." 
The word as a noun is advi*c*e, as in "I need some advice about buying a Kindle."


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## drenee

Octochick, 
You're killing me.


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## ScottBooks

Doesn't *'s* make anything plural?


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## Guest

ScottBooks said:


> Doesn't *'s* make anything plural?


This is my #1. Nothing else even comes close.

A distant second is to/too/two.


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## drenee

Bacardi Jim said:


> A distant second is to/too/two.


I would not have guessed that. LOL!


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## Mikuto

There, their, and they're, as well as your and you're. 

These are big offenders to me, because they're not something you can generally spellcheck away.


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## Guest

Mikuto said:


> There, their, and they're, as well as your and you're.
> 
> These are big offenders to me, because they're not something you can generally spellcheck away.


They're my #3.


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## Neekeebee

Mixing its and it's.  I can't believe how often people get it wrong in print.  Sometimes it seems like they just type in whichever one they feel like.  I find myself yelling: "People, if you're going to get it wrong, at least be consistent about it!"

OK, deep breath...

N


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## ScottBooks

Bacardi Jim said:


> They're my #3.


What's #8?


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## Guest

Neekeebee said:


> Mixing its and it's. I can't believe how often people get it wrong in print. Sometimes it seems like they just type in whichever one they feel like. I find myself yelling: "People, if you're going to get it wrong, at least be consistent about it!"
> 
> OK, deep breath...
> 
> N


This is the one of which I an occasionally guilty--specifically using "it's" when it's supposed to be "its." I catch it about half the time I do it.


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## Mikuto

Neekeebee said:


> Mixing its and it's. I can't believe how often people get it wrong in print. Sometimes it seems like they just type in whichever one they feel like. I find myself yelling: "People, if you're going to get it wrong, at least be consistent about it!"
> 
> OK, deep breath...
> 
> N


When I reread things that I've written in the past I usually find that I'm guilty of this. Usually because I'm trying to make something possessive and doing it wrong, or just typing so fast I don't catch the mistake.


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## Guest

ScottBooks said:


> What's #8?


The basis of all Discworld magic.


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## Annalog

Mikuto said:


> There, their, and they're, as well as your and you're.
> 
> These are big offenders to me, because they're not something you can generally spellcheck away.


I would add *you* to the list with *your* and *you're*. I often see *you* used when *your* would be correct.

"I am going to put a comfortable saddle on *you* horse." (Example of incorrect usage.)

"I am going to put a comfortable saddle on *your* horse." (Example of correct usage when speaking to the owner of the horse.)

"I am going to put a comfortable saddle on *you*, Horse." (Example of correct usage when speaking directly to the horse.)

I realize that in posts and chat the missing *r* could easily be due to an oversight while typing too fast. Those do not bother me. However it does bother me when I see it in a publication that is supposed to be professionally written.



Bacardi Jim said:


> The basis of all Discworld magic.


 

Anna
EDIT: Used *bold* instead of quotes. I am too compulsive! 
EDIT: Previous example was taken from published product documentation. However, since practically every product is mentioned on KB somewhere, I removed the example as someone might have thought it was referring to their post. I have finally thought of an example that hopefully is read in the educational and illustrative intention with which it was written. (Yes, I know there are posts about horses on KB. Please realize that the sentences above are not from or influenced by any posts on those threads. I frequently suffer from "foot in mouth" disease [the inadvertent saying of something taken not as intended], but fortunately have not had "hoof and mouth" disease. )

Because I suffer from "foot in mouth" disease, I am very thankful for the ability KB provides for me to modify or remove my own posts.


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## Leslie

Being a professional editor, I could give endless examples of mistakes I see over and over. 

But then I realize, if people weren't making these mistakes endlessly, they wouldn't need me, and I would be out of a job.

So bring on your misused apostrophes, misspelled words, split infinitives, periods outside of quotes, and all the rest....I love 'em all.

L


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## Guest

My problem with the superfluous apostrophe is that in ten short years it has become so prevalent and widespread that it doesn't look odd to most people.  Damned Internet.


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## Vegas_Asian

Bacardi Jim said:


> My problem with the superfluous apostrophe is that in ten short years it has become so prevalent and widespread that it doesn't look odd to most people. Damned Internet.


I used to grade the work of high school freshmen, who use things like BTW (by the way) or IMO (in my opinion) in school essays, tests, you name it. Yes, its sad.


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## katiekat1066

My biggest pet peeve that seems to make it into books most often is breath/breathe - Usually breath for breathe is the error.  Drives me nuts.  I have to admit that I had never thought a lot about they're/there/their and your/you're until I got on line and they were mangled so much!  I think I was blessed before that  

Katiekat


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## Neversleepsawink;)

BTW, its funny i am a offender of alot of thing's two?

Just kidding.


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## Leslie

I have thought of starting a movement: WANC - We Are Not Contracting - and eliminate all contractions from the English language. Then the apostrophe could be reserved for possessive only and maybe everyone would get it right...except, then the obvious exception, it's and its (its is possessive without an apostrophe) would be highlighted and it would probably be wrong more often than it is now.

L


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## Xia

Oh, I've got a long list of them. Some have already been mentioned.

But I cringe whenever I see "should/would/could *of*" - the proper usage is should/would/could *have*, not of! I see that one everywhere, but not much around here because that's one of the mistakes that people who actually read don't usually make.

-X-


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## drenee

I have a grammar question.  Is it alright or all right?


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## Ann in Arlington

Well, it's alright for you to ask your question.

And if you're lucky, you'll get an answer that is all right.



Ann


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## drenee

Thank you.  That's how I use them as well.


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## Ann in Arlington

Good, that makes two of us. . . . 

Ann


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## Leslie

Keep in mind, though, that what you asked was a grammar question, not grammer.

L


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## Ann in Arlington

see, this is why Leslie is the editor.  

Ann


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## lexie22

My biggest pet peeve (which does not occur on this site), is people who spell things as they sound.  For example,

Johnny iz goin too da store to git sum fud 4 the dawg.


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## drenee

Leslie said:


> Keep in mind, though, that what you asked was a grammar question, not grammer.
> 
> L


Thank you. You're absolutely right. LOL.


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## Neversleepsawink;)

lexie22 said:


> My biggest pet peeve (which does not occur on this site), is people who spell things as they sound. For example,
> 
> Johnny iz goin too da store to git sum fud 4 the dawg.


I agree!


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## drenee

lexie22 said:


> My biggest pet peeve (which does not occur on this site), is people who spell things as they sound. For example,
> 
> Johnny iz goin too da store to git sum fud 4 the dawg.


OMG. Who talks like that? It would take too long for me to try to figure out what they mean.


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## David J. Guyton

I never judge things posted online, but if I see stuff in a book it bugs me.

--Just between you and I (should be *me* here, not I)

--I hate the word "*farther*". I replace it with "*further*" while speaking, but in reference to distance I will use "farther" in writing. Both are correct for distance, although "further" is used more for non-traditional distance, such as taking a conversation further.

--I hate the rules about lying down. I don't lie bricks, I lay them, so I should be "laying" myself down when I do so. I speak this way, but I correct it when I write.

--Prepositions at the end of sentences, except where it sounds silly to NOT do so. "What are you looking at?"


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## lexie22

David J. Guyton said:


> I never judge things posted online, but if I see stuff in a book it bugs me.
> 
> --Just between you and I (should be *me* here, not I)
> 
> --I hate the word "*farther*". I replace it with "*further*" while speaking, but in reference to distance I will use "farther" in writing. Both are correct for distance, although "further" is used more for non-traditional distance, such as taking a conversation further.
> 
> --I hate the rules about lying down. I don't lie bricks, I lay them, so I should be "laying" myself down when I do so. I speak this way, but I correct it when I write.
> 
> --Prepositions at the end of sentences, except where it sounds silly to NOT do so. "What are you looking at?"


I never fully understood the lay/ lie rules. Can someone explain them to me?


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## Scathach

I never really get that upset about grammar issues anymore unless it's people talking in leet speak.  First for me life is too short to worry about it, second there are so many people out there who are in the process of learning the english language and trust me proper english usage can be difficult to learn, and third unfortunately not everyone has the equal level of education in the U.S. 

I myself know how it is to (re)learn a different language, and I am sure I make my own mistakes all the time.  I also inadvertently hurt someone's feelings correcting their grammar, she felt as if I was pointing out the fact that she was a moron.  She wasn't a moron she just honestly didn't know.  

just my two cents  -cents not sense   

(psst... alot also bothers me a lot too)


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## Figment

Nouns used as verbs!!!  Sets my teeth right on edge.


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## sharyn

Oh, this is *my* thread!  I also am an editor, and the hardest thing about reading with a Kindle is not being able to circle the mistakes! 

Sharyn


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## Leslie

For the lay/lie issue, here's a good explanation:

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/lay-versus-lie.aspx


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## Neversleepsawink;)

drenee said:


> OMG. Who talks like that? It would take too long for me to try to figure out what they mean.


My entire High School did, sad, so sad


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## Jeff

I’m not at all peeved by grammatical errors or typos. I make so many mistakes myself that I’m always gratified to see someone more prone to errors than I.


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## libro

My pet peeve is someone who has very poor grammar with no desire to improve it.  Usually it's found in someone who doesn't read.  Adding to all of the above, I'd have to say improper use of contractions and apostrophes.


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## marianneg

I'm a little surprised no one has yet mentioned my pet peeve, using loose instead of lose.


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## Guest

marianner said:


> I'm a little surprised no one has yet mentioned my pet peeve, using loose instead of lose.


This one doesn't bother me because the first time somebody does it, I put them on Ignore so I'll never have to see it again.


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## marianneg

Bacardi Jim said:


> This one doesn't bother me because the first time somebody does it, I put them on Ignore so I'll never have to see it again.


LOL! You must be ignoring almost everyone! I've seen soooo many people do this that don't make any other glaring errors.


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## Wannabe

Octochick- thanks for starting this thread. I'v been thinking about this very same thing for a few days but couldn't think of a tactful way to bring it up. The misuse of to, too, and two bothers me a great deal, as does your and you're and there, they're and their. 
I admit, though, that I do not know when to use lie and lay. I always just say lay no matter what or who (whom?) I'm talking about. I'll have to check Leslie's link for this as well as my who/whom issue  .


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## Guest

Wannabe said:


> Octochick- thanks for starting this thread. I'v been thinking about this very same thing for a few days but couldn't think of a tactful way to bring it up. The misuse of to, too, and two bothers me a great deal, as does your and you're and there, they're and their.
> I admit, though, that I do not know when to use lie and lay. I always just say lay no matter what or who (whom?) I'm talking about. I'll have to check Leslie's link for this as well as my who/whom issue .


"who" is a subject--"whom" is an object.

Who gave the book to whom?


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## Jeff

How about past and passed?


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## Wannabe

Bacardi Jim said:


> "who" is a subject--"whom" is an object.
> 
> Who gave the book to whom?


Makes sense, thanks. Another pet peeve- using then instead of than.


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## Leslie

Jeff said:


> How about past and passed?


Well, if we are going to talk about pet peeves, one of mine is people who say, "He passed" instead of "He died." Let's call a death a death, shall we? LOL

L


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## Guest

This one's only oral, but people who say "nother" instead of "other" or "different."

"That's a whole nother topic."


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## Lotus

One that's been bugging me lately is a flashy ad I've seen on Facebook that says "8 Friends Think Your Dumb." Well, I don't have a Dumb, and what is it you think of him, anyway? Lately, the ad has changed to "8 Friends think ur dumb." Sigh...

Thankfully, many of the members on KB are readers, so their spelling/grammar isn't too bad. Some of the other sites I'm on, however, some of the young people have terrible skills. I just wonder what will happen when they send in their résumé in their barely understandable prose.


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## Gables Girl

I have learned that MS Word has real problems with grammar, it is consistently wrong about some things.  As a former English teacher I find that I have to watch myself and not slip into the usual mistakes I hear all the time.  Principal and principle are one of mine along with the ones you have already listed.


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## Jeff

Leslie said:


> Well, if we are going to talk about pet peeves, one of mine is people who say, "He passed"...


I always think that they've left out the noun.


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## Guest

Jeff said:


> I always think that theyve left out the noun.


Pull my...


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## Leslie

Funny, the nooks and crannies in our memories. This thread brought up two long forgotten memories....

My freshman year in college, I had to take Composition 101 (along with everyone else). I was pretty proud of my writing so imagine my dismay when I got my first paper back covered in red circles. When I went to meet with the teacher and discuss this, he said, "I have to say, I am very impressed that you are only making advanced grammar errors." LOL....

I think folks know I am a nurse, so of course, I had nursing clinicals. One time I had a patient who had, shall we say, messed the bed. I spent a long time cleaning up the patient and the bed and my instructor was wondering what on earth I was up to when I finally emerged from the room. So I said, "Well, he um...shat everywhere and it took some time to take care of it." She just looked at me with this amazed expression and finally said, "You are the first student I have ever had in 40 years who knew the past tense of that verb."

Go me! LOL

L


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## Gables Girl

Leslie said:


> Well, if we are going to talk about pet peeves, one of mine is people who say, "He passed" instead of "He died." Let's call a death a death, shall we? LOL
> 
> L


Worse are ones who say "He pass" I'm never sure if he died or just want to the beach....


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## Leslie

Gables Girl said:


> Worse are ones who say "He pass" I'm never sure if he died or just want to the beach....


That always makes me think of people "passing" which makes me think of that unbelievable movie, *Imitation of Life*, (1959, directed by Douglas Sirk) which probably tells you more than you want to know about how my mind works... 

L


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## Guest

Leslie said:


> That always makes me think of people "passing" which makes me think of that unbelievable movie, *Imitation of Life*, (1959, directed by Douglas Sirk) which probably tells you more than you want to know about how my mind works...
> 
> L


Heh. LR adores that movie.


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## Gables Girl

Leslie said:


> That always makes me think of people "passing" which makes me think of that unbelievable movie, *Imitation of Life*, (1959, directed by Douglas Sirk) which probably tells you more than you want to know about how my mind works...
> 
> L


A remake of the 1934 movie starring Claudette Colbert from the book by Fanny Hurst, the Barbara Cartland of her day. Show you how my mind works.... ;


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## ScottBooks

marianner said:


> I'm a little surprised no one has yet mentioned my pet peeve, using loose instead of lose.


I've always attributed that one to bad typing. Now that you bring it up, I'm sure there are people out there using the double "o" because it makes the "ooo" sound so that must be how it's spelled. Now I'm sad.


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## Leslie

Gables Girl said:


> A remake of the 1934 movie starring Claudette Colbert from the book by Fanny Hurst, the Barbara Cartland of her day. Show you how my mind works.... ;


Now I didn't know that...thank you!


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## David J. Guyton

I think I read somewhere that they are getting rid of "whom". I don't remember who "they" are though.

This isn't really on subject, but *"Hieroglyphics"* is always wrong. It's *"hieroglyphs"* or *"hieroglyphic"* writing. Like a nerd I contacted the _Oxford English Dictionary _ and told them that the entry they have is a mistake. They responded with something like:

_"Yes, Mr. Guyton, you are correct. However since 'hieroglyphics' is a word used by many people, we have included it in our dictionary."_

I didn't check to see if "slackers" is in their dictionary. I bet it is though.


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## Guest

ScottBooks said:


> I've always attributed that one to bad typing. Now that you bring it up, I'm sure there are people out there using the double "o" because it makes the "ooo" sound so that must be how it's spelled. Now I'm sad.


It's not just bad typing. I see it far too often.


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## Leslie

Bacardi Jim said:


> Heh. LR adores that movie.


I am not sure I would go all the way to "adore" but I have seen it a bunch of times. Same with *Magnificent Obsession*, which I may like a little bit more because the whole doctor thing is so ridiculous. And Rock Hudson is pretty good looking, too.


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## Guest

Yeah.... I wonder why you're such a Rock Hudson fan?


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## Guest

Which reminds me--did you catch Suddenly, Last Summer on TCM the other day?


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## Ann in Arlington

On Friday's Bonnie Hunt she began what I assume will be an on-again-off-again series called something like "words I learned on judge shows". Friday one word was "you-ology" as in "Judge, may I read this you-ology I wrote for my mother for her funeral." The other one was even funnier but it was so *wrong *I can't remember it.

Ann


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## Lotus

By the way, this is a great site for commonly confused words: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html

I think my favorite is mucus/mucous.


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## Guest

OH!  I just remembered this classic that drives me up the wall:  "I could care less."


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## Leslie

Lotus said:


> By the way, this is a great site for commonly confused words: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html
> 
> I think my favorite is mucus/mucous.


This is my favorite:

NAUSEATED/NAUSEOUS

Many people say, when sick to their stomachs, that they feel "nauseous" (pronounced "NOSH-uss" or "NOZH-uss") but traditionalists insist that this word should be used to describe something that makes you want to throw up: something nauseating. They hear you as saying that you make people want to vomit, and it tempers their sympathy for your plight. Better to say you are "nauseated," or simply that you feel like throwing up.


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## Leslie

Bacardi Jim said:


> OH! I just remembered this classic that drives me up the wall: "I could care less."


That drives me wicked up the wall!


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## Leslie

Bacardi Jim said:


> Yeah.... I wonder why you're such a Rock Hudson fan?


Yes, but we didn't know then what we know now...


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## Jeff

Since we have the attention of many brilliant minds here I'd like to pose a serious question.

In one of my books I used the word _debark_ and someone told me that the correct word is _disembark_. I looked it up and it appears that disembark is indeed the preferred usage.

Couldn't disembark just as easily mean "not getting on the boat" as it could mean "getting off the boat"?


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## Leslie

Ann Von Hagel said:


> On Friday's Bonnie Hunt she began what I assume will be an on-again-off-again series called something like "words I learned on judge shows". Friday one word was "you-ology" as in "Judge, may I read this you-ology I wrote for my mother for her funeral." The other one was even funnier but it was so *wrong *I can't remember it.
> 
> Ann


I had a patient show up in the ER and his mother, when asked about his past medical history said he had had "the sign of Mighty Jesus."

Anyone? Anyone? LR probably knows.

L


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## Guest

Jeff, if the "prefered usage" is "disembark," then why is it called a "debarcation lounge?"


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## Guest

Spinal meningitis


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## ScottBooks

Jeff said:


> Since we have the attention of many brilliant minds here I'd like to pose a serious question.
> 
> In one of my books I used the word _debark_ and someone told me that the correct word is _disembark_. I looked it up and it appears that disembark is indeed the preferred usage.
> 
> Couldn't disembark just as easily mean "not getting on the boat" as it could mean "getting off the boat"?


I would think that "not getting on the boat" involves failing to embark. It's not the same as the opposite of embarking. I'm going with "bark" not being the root word.


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## Leslie

Bacardi Jim said:


> Spinal meningitis


Very good. I could give you a Hugh picture as a prize....


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## Guest

Leslie said:


> Very good. I could give you a Hugh picture as a prize....


I'll take the rest on a gift certificate, Chuck.


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## Guest

And what is it called when a Basenji gets off a boat?


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## BambiB

Lotus said:


> By the way, this is a great site for commonly confused words: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html
> 
> I think my favorite is mucus/mucous.


For years I worked at our local Public Health office and you would be amazed how many people would omit the letter "l" from the word Public. Although now that I think about it, we provided services for patients with HIV, STDs and women with infant children, so quite possibly it was I making the mistake!!


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## Xia

Bacardi Jim said:


> This one doesn't bother me because the first time somebody does it, I put them on Ignore so I'll never have to see it again.


BJ - You are just too darn funny! You chuckle me up!


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## Guest

Xia said:


> You chuckle me up!


Hey! This is a *family* site.


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## Elijsha

grammar police keel me! life is to short


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## Jeff

Bacardi Jim said:


> And what is it called when a Basenji gets off a boat?


My internet connect passed so I wasn't able to respond in a timely fashion. An answer to your question would be doggone.

EDIT: Sorry Leslie, I meant the connection died.


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## Guest

Jeff said:


> My internet connect passed so I wasnt able to respond in a timely fashion. An answer to your question would be doggone.


HA! Excellent!


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## Gables Girl

Bacardi Jim said:


> And what is it called when a Basenji gets off a boat?


I could care less!


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## Xia

Lotus said:


> [ ... ] I just wonder what will happen when they send in their résumé in their barely understandable prose.


As a former **************************** I can tell you that each and every resume (sorry! I don't know how to get the accent marks in on that word) that has gross errors are immediately tossed. It's just business, it is not personal. If the applicant cannot represent his/herself properly in the resume than they cannot represent the company properly to its clients/customers. That's just the way that it is.

Edited: To remove personal information


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## Guest

Cuz yanno Basenji's cant bark in da first play's.


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## Jeff

Bacardi Jim said:


> Cuz yanno Basenji's cant bark in da first play's.


It was enyodeled and debarked.


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## Xia

Bacardi Jim said:


> And what is it called when a Basenji gets off a boat?


?? Does it have something to do with disemBARKing ?? (Basenji dogs aren't able to bark, according to legend. Although, I could beg to differ.)


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## Xia

D'oh!  (Just caught up with the rest of the thread.  Apologies.)


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## Neekeebee

Mikuto said:


> When I reread things that I've written in the past I usually find that I'm guilty of this. Usually because I'm trying to make something possessive and doing it wrong, or just typing so fast I don't catch the mistake.


BacardiJim and Mikuto: I only yell if it's printed in a book, newspaper, etc. (And I try not to yell at my Kindle.) I'm sure I make as many errors as anybody else.

N


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## cheshirenc

lexie22 said:


> My biggest pet peeve (which does not occur on this site), is people who spell things as they sound. For example,
> 
> Johnny iz goin too da store to git sum fud 4 the dawg.


I see this type of grammar and spelling every day. I'll have to save some and quote them.

I personally have issues with I/me. I always have to talk it out to figure out if I'm the subject or not and try to remember the school house rock song.


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## BrassMan

All this reminds me of the possibly apocryphal comment on a college freshman's essay: "Your vocabulary is mean and impoverished. Fortunately, it is adequate for the expression of your ideas."


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## Guest

cheshirenc said:


> I see this type of grammar and spelling every day. I'll have to save some and quote them.
> 
> I personally have issues with I/me. I always have to talk it out to figure out if I'm the subject or not and try to remember the school house rock song.


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## Guest

cheshirenc said:


> I see this type of grammar and spelling every day. I'll have to save some and quote them.
> 
> I personally have issues with I/me. I always have to talk it out to figure out if I'm the subject or not and try to remember the school house rock song.


Prince Leopold and I were both invited to the Spring Ball, where he ditched me for that damned granddaughter of Maria Theresa.


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## Guest

You and I went to the circus, where a drunken clown tossed his "confetti" on you and me.


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## Gables Girl

Bacardi Jim said:


> You and I went to the circus, where a drunken clown tossed his "confetti" on you and me.


Memo to self, never go to the circus with BJ.


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## robin.goodfellow

Has anyone mentioned then/than? This drives me insane!!

I get emails from inside the company all the time that say things like "IT would rather go with this system *then* that system."

I replied to all one time and asked if we would be using consecutive systems, or should that person have used the word "*than*"? Because he was making a comparison between two things, not identifying the sequence in which we should use them? And was this maybe what we got for hiring illiterate hillbillies in the first place?

My manager has since clamped way down on my ability to respond to emails. Apparently he didn't care for my tone. He'd rather I shut up *than* keep calling the people who control the servers ********. See how easy that was?


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## Jeff

Memo to Gables Girl: Never go ANYWHERE with BJ.

Memo to self: Never send email to Robin.


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## Gables Girl

Jeff said:


> Memo to Gables Girl: Never go ANYWHERE with BJ.
> 
> Memo to self: Never send email to Robin.


Good point, thank you for reminding me.


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## sharyn

Leslie said:


> Well, if we are going to talk about pet peeves, one of mine is people who say, "He passed" instead of "He died." Let's call a death a death, shall we? LOL


I prefer croak. 

Sharyn


----------



## Geemont

Leslie said:


> Well, if we are going to talk about pet peeves, one of mine is people who say, "He passed" instead of "He died." Let's call a death a death, shall we?


What about _worm food_? E.g., "He's worm food" or "My mother-in-law has gone off to feed the worms. (Go worms!)"


----------



## cheshirenc

How about no and know?

I worked with a guy that always used know, I don't think he realized NO existed, drove me as crazy as a current co-worker using cap lock all the time.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

ScottBooks said:


> I've always attributed that one to bad typing. Now that you bring it up, I'm sure there are people out there using the double "o" because it makes the "ooo" sound so that must be how it's spelled. Now I'm sad.


There are those of us who have auditory discrimination and struggle with distinguishing sounds so that oo vs o sound is really, really tough. I hire a proff reader for formal documents because I know that my spelling is awful due to dyslexia and auditory discrimination. I have been known to spell words so poorly that Word cannot find anything even remotly close to the word I am attempting to spell.

http://www.answers.com/topic/auditory-discrimination-test

I could use help with the silly possessive and when to use the apostrophe properly.


----------



## SongbirdVB

I could also use help with the proper use of apostrophes, and probably many other things I don't know I don't know.

My biggest pet peeve would be the use of U and UR for you and your (and you're) in anything other than a text message.  Even in a text message I would prefer the word be spelled out, but I do understand the restrictions of messaging.


----------



## Leslie

Regarding apostrophes:

If you eliminate contractions in your writing, that is half the battle right there. In fact, in scientific and technical writing, contractions are not allowed. So everything gets spelled out: I am, you are, it is, were not, cannot, is not, do not, does not, etc. "Ain't" is not a word.

That leaves possessive and in this case, the apostrophe exists for that reason.

First, memorize the exception: it's is it is (and you are not going to write it's anymore). Just think, "My kindle looks lovely in its beautiful Oberon cover."

Then...

Singular possessive is created with an 's. Leslie's book, Mary's kindle.

Plural possessive is created with an s': compare, for example, "My friend's book" or "My friends' books." The latter is discussing multiple books owned by multiple friends. Remember that if you have a plural possessive, the object needs to be plural, too. I am editing a book right now where the author keeps referring to "the students' ability." It is either, "the student's ability" or "the students' abilities."

An exception is if the subject is plural, such as children. Then, the possessive is "children's", ie, "the children's abilities."

Do not use an apostrophe when you are adding an s to make something plural: The unleashed dogs were traveling in a pack (dog's would be wrong).

L


----------



## Guest

Addendum to Leslie's post: The problem is that you *do* use an apostrophe to pluralize abbreviations. And it is this that has directly led to its widespread abuse now. "I own over one hundred DVD's."

The frequent Internet use of such words as DVD's, CD's, etc. (which are correct) is what has led people to utilize the apostrophe to pluralize *all* nouns. And it's shameful.


----------



## Mikuto

Maybe this is only me, but I have trouble typing out the words anonymous or enormous or pretty much anything that ends with mous without adding an e on the end. Anonymouse!


----------



## robin.goodfellow

I know the feeling. I have the same problem with words that end in -in, adding the g.

Like my own name. 9 times out of 10 I end up typing "robing". And this has been my name my entire life.

~robing


----------



## Guest

robin.goodfellow said:


> I know the feeling. I have the same problem with words that end in -in, adding the g.
> 
> Like my own name. 9 times out of 10 I end up typing "robing". And this has been my name my entire life.
> 
> ~robing


I'd rather you were disrobing.


----------



## robin.goodfellow

That's an entirely other set of threads.


----------



## SongbirdVB

Leslie said:


> Regarding apostrophes:
> 
> If you eliminate contractions in your writing, that is half the battle right there. In fact, in scientific and technical writing, contractions are not allowed. So everything gets spelled out: I am, you are, it is, were not, cannot, is not, do not, does not, etc. "Ain't" is not a word.
> 
> That leaves possessive and in this case, the apostrophe exists for that reason.
> 
> First, memorize the exception: it's is it is (and you are not going to write it's anymore). Just think, "My kindle looks lovely in its beautiful Oberon cover."
> 
> Then...
> 
> Singular possessive is created with an 's. Leslie's book, Mary's kindle.
> 
> Plural possessive is created with an s': compare, for example, "My friend's book" or "My friends' books." The latter is discussing multiple books owned by multiple friends. Remember that if you have a plural possessive, the object needs to be plural, too. I am editing a book right now where the author keeps referring to "the students' ability." It is either, "the student's ability" or "the students' abilities."
> 
> An exception is if the subject is plural, such as children. Then, the possessive is "children's", ie, "the children's abilities."
> 
> Do not use an apostrophe when you are adding an s to make something plural: The unleashed dogs were traveling in a pack (dog's would be wrong).
> 
> L


Thank you Leslie. Most of this I knew, it was the plural possessive that always threw me for a loop! I appreciate your help.


----------



## Guest

robin.goodfellow said:


> That's an entirely other set of threads.


Or removal thereof.


----------



## BrassMan

Consider: when we talk, we do not utter, nor do we hear, apostrophes or capital letters. Frankly, I think we would be ahead if we'd get rid of them in our writing, too. 

I'll never forget my sophomore English teacher (high school), who was argued into a corner on this point by a linguist. Rather than admit she was wrong, she claimed she could actually hear the difference between boy's and boys'. 

The other low spot in my teacher relations was a junior high English teacher who had assigned us to memorize some poetry of our choice, provided we checked it with her first. I didn't know much poetry, but I chose Hamlet's "To be or not to be" soliloquy. She told me that would not do. "Why not?" I asked. "Because it isn't poetry," she replied. 

I guess it should have rhymed....


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Yup, it is the plural possessive that has caused me problems.


----------



## robin.goodfellow

> Or removal thereof.


Precisely. Although if things don't get moving on the Dead Until Dark questions thread, I may have to do that to get everyone's attention. I guess we will see how that works in a text format.


----------



## Mikuto

But if we removed apostrophes and capital letters from our written language it would be harder to read. In my opinion, at least, having no capital letters is really distracting.

As for poetry, I've always felt that it's one of those "know it when you see it" type things.



BrassMan said:


> Consider: when we talk, we do not utter, nor do we hear, apostrophes or capital letters. Frankly, I think we would be ahead if we'd get rid of them in our writing, too.
> 
> I'll never forget my sophomore English teacher (high school), who was argued into a corner on this point by a linguist. Rather than admit she was wrong, she claimed she could actually hear the difference between boy's and boys'.
> 
> The other low spot in my teacher relations was a junior high English teacher who had assigned us to memorize some poetry of our choice, provided we checked it with her first. I didn't know much poetry, but I chose Hamlet's "To be or not to be" soliloquy. She told me that would not do. "Why not?" I asked. "Because it isn't poetry," she replied.
> 
> I guess it should have rhymed....


----------



## Lotus

Bacardi Jim said:


> Addendum to Leslie's post: The problem is that you *do* use an apostrophe to pluralize abbreviations. And it is this that has directly led to its widespread abuse now. "I own over one hundred DVD's."
> 
> The frequent Internet use of such words as DVD's, CD's, etc. (which are correct) is what has led people to utilize the apostrophe to pluralize *all* nouns. And it's shameful.


Using an apostrophe as the plural isn't necessarily the only way to make those plural, it's a style issue. Many books/publications use CDs, DVDs, TVs, and it is also correct. AP (Associated Press) style calls for using just an S for multiple letters (TVs, IOUs), and an apostrophe and an S for single letters (she got all A's). As long as it's consistent throughout your writing, you should be fine.


----------



## Guest

Lotus said:


> Using an apostrophe as the plural isn't necessarily the only way to make those plural, it's a style issue. Many books/publications use CDs, DVDs, TVs, and it is also correct. AP (Associated Press) style calls for using just an S for multiple letters (TVs, IOUs), and an apostrophe and an S for single letters (she got all A's). As long as it's consistent throughout your writing, you should be fine.


This is true. Unfortunately, it's not the common practice. Thus the current situation.


----------



## KimmyA

I cannot stand to hear a person say 'I seen'. ex: 'I seen a dog run in the yard'


----------



## Leslie

Bacardi Jim said:


> Addendum to Leslie's post: The problem is that you *do* use an apostrophe to pluralize abbreviations. And it is this that has directly led to its widespread abuse now. "I own over one hundred DVD's."
> 
> The frequent Internet use of such words as DVD's, CD's, etc. (which are correct) is what has led people to utilize the apostrophe to pluralize *all* nouns. And it's shameful.


Well, actually, I consider the underlying word.

For example, in my journals we use the abbreviation RN quite frequently (no surprise). RN stands for "registered nurse." If the sentence is: "There were 80 RNs who participated in the study," we do not use an apostrophe, because if it was spelled out, it would be 80 registered nurses (plural) not nurse's or nurses'.

Same with ICU (ICUs), MD (MDs) and so on.

For dates:

Our journal style is to write 1980s, 1990s, and so so, because the underlying word (nineteen eighties) is plural. Interestingly, the New York Times writes 1980's which they say is "a matter of style." I say it is wrong....

L


----------



## Mikuto

KimmyA said:


> I cannot stand to hear a person say 'I seen'. ex: 'I seen a dog run in the yard'


The proper use would be with "had" correct? "I had seen a dog running in the yard." Or by turning seen into saw "I saw a dog run in the yard."?


----------



## Guest

Mikuto said:


> The proper use would be with "had" correct? "I had seen a dog running in the yard." Or by turning seen into saw "I saw a dog run in the yard."?


"Where John had had 'had,' Jim had had 'had had.' 'Had had' had had a better impression on the teacher."


----------



## Mikuto

Bacardi Jim said:


> "Where John had had 'had,' Jim had had 'had had.' 'Had had' had had a better impression on the teacher."


I had trouble reading that D:


----------



## Guest

Mikuto said:


> I had trouble reading that D:


It's an ancient brain teaser. It is usually presented without punctuation, and you are asked to punctuate it so that it makes sense.


----------



## Gables Girl

Bacardi Jim said:


> "Where John had had 'had,' Jim had had 'had had.' 'Had had' had had a better impression on the teacher."


Now I have a headache, I had had a feeling I was going to get one and this finished the job.  Thanks BJ, and pass the aspirin.


----------



## Guest

Gables Girl said:


> Now I have a headache, I had had a feeling I was going to get one and this finished the job.  Thanks BJ, and pass the aspirin.


Going to take a powder?


----------



## Mikuto

Bacardi Jim said:


> It's an ancient brain teaser. It is usually presented without punctuation, and you are asked to punctuate it so that it makes sense.


Didn't say I didn't understand it, but it was still hard to read! I always find the doubling of a verb "had had" to be jarring and try to avoid using it.

This isn't so much a grammar peeve with me, but I hate the words read and read, which look identical but sound different and mean different things depending on context. I can't even think of how many times I've been reading and have to stop and think about the word "read" because the context is not immediately obvious.


----------



## KimmyA

Mikuto said:


> The proper use would be with "had" correct? "I had seen a dog running in the yard." Or by turning seen into saw "I saw a dog run in the yard."?


Usually saw would be appropriate. I live in the South where it's used a lot and doesn't make the person sound very intelligent.


----------



## Guest

Mikuto said:


> Didn't say I didn't understand it, but it was still hard to read! I always find the doubling of a verb "had had" to be jarring and try to avoid using it.
> 
> This isn't so much a grammar peeve with me, but I hate the words read and read, which look identical but sound different and mean different things depending on context. I can't even think of how many times I've been reading and have to stop and think about the word "read" because the context is not immediately obvious.


"Had" is the Simple Past (Preterite) of "to have." "I had a good time." "Had had" is the Past Imperfect of "to have." "I had had a good time until the chainsaw accident."


----------



## Mikuto

It's been too long since I studied English. I never did quite get all of the tenses right.


----------



## Lotus

Leslie said:


> Well, actually, I consider the underlying word.
> 
> For example, in my journals we use the abbreviation RN quite frequently (no surprise). RN stands for "registered nurse." If the sentence is: "There were 80 RNs who participated in the study," we do not use an apostrophe, because if it was spelled out, it would be 80 registered nurses (plural) not nurse's or nurses'.
> 
> Same with ICU (ICUs), MD (MDs) and so on.
> 
> For dates:
> 
> Our journal style is to write 1980s, 1990s, and so so, because the underlying word (nineteen eighties) is plural. Interestingly, the New York Times writes 1980's which they say is "a matter of style." I say it is wrong....
> 
> L


Those rules are true for many publications. NYT follows some odd style conventions. To a lot of people, DVD's or 1980's look very odd as a plural.

I just saw that this is available on Kindle. It's a nice style guide for modern times for those that edit regularly:


$9.99

It's a fun read, if this sort of stuff interests you.


----------



## Guest

Also:


----------



## Lotus

That's a good one, too, Jim. However, because the author is English, there are some English grammatical points that are different from U.S. English. Having grown up in England but having spent my editing career using American English, it starts to get very odd.


----------



## Guest

Lotus said:


> That's a good one, too, Jim. However, because the author is English, there are some English grammatical points that are different from U.S. English. Having grown up in England but having spent my editing career using American English, it starts to get very odd.


True enough. But I enjoyed her witty style. And, if possible, she hates the superfluous apostrophe even more than I do.


----------



## Gables Girl

Bacardi Jim said:


> Going to take a powder?


I wish, I'm still at work and they would notice if I disappeared.


----------



## Guest

Gables Girl said:


> I wish, I'm still at work and they would notice if I disappeared.


Sorry. This time I meant a BC.


----------



## Gables Girl

Bacardi Jim said:


> Sorry. This time I meant a BC.


That would work....


----------



## BrassMan

Mikuto said:


> But if we removed apostrophes and capital letters from our written language it would be harder to read. In my opinion, at least, having no capital letters is really distracting.
> 
> As for poetry, I've always felt that it's one of those "know it when you see it" type things.


One of my daughters emails in small letters sometimes. I got used to it. It's easier than the metric system, I can tell you. The reason we have capital letters goes back to matters of legibility during the old scribe days, when several scripts were conflated. Same reason for the dot over the i and the j. Same reason for punctuation, actually--it helped people (priests, often) read to those who could not read.

As for poetry....

Herbs too she knew and well of each could speak

is poetry, mainly because it's in iambic pentameter, like Hamlet's soloquy. Blank verse is another matter. You can't always tell--sometimes it's just a matter of opinion.


----------



## robin.goodfellow

Oh GOOD!! I was hoping someone would mention "had had"!!! Here's what Jasper Fforde had to say on the subject:



> "Good. Item seven. The had had and that that problem. Lady Cavendish, weren't you working on this?'
> Lady Cavendish stood up and gathered her thoughts. 'Indeed. The uses of had had and that that have to be strictly controlled; they can interrupt the imaginotransference quite dramatically, causing readers to go back over the sentence in confusion, something we try to avoid.'
> 'Go on.'
> 'It's mostly an unlicensed-usage problem. At the last count David Copperfield alone had had had had sixty three times, all but ten unapproved. Pilgrim's Progress may also be a problem due to its had had/that that ratio.'
> "So what's the problem in Progress?'
> 'That that had that that ten times but had had had had only thrice. Increased had had usage had had to be overlooked, but not if the number exceeds that that that usage.'
> 'Hmm,' said the Bellman, 'I thought had had had had TGC's approval for use in Dickens? What's the problem?'
> 'Take the first had had and that that in the book by way of example,' said Lady Cavendish. 'You would have thought that that first had had had had good occasion to be seen as had, had you not? Had had had approval but had had had not; equally it is true to say that that that that had had approval but that that other that that had not.'
> 'So the problem with that other that that was that&#8230;?'
> 'That that other-other that that had had approval.'
> 'Okay' said the Bellman, whose head was in danger of falling apart like a chocolate orange, 'let me get this straight: David Copperfield, unlike Pilgrim's Progress, had had had, had had had had. Had had had had TGC's approval?'
> There was a very long pause. 'Right,' said the Bellman with a sigh, 'that's it for the moment. I'll be giving out assignments in ten minutes. Session's over -and let's be careful out there.'"
> - Jasper Fforde


I NEVER get to quote Fforde! Woo hoo!


----------



## bosslady402

the thing i hate the most is when people go on and on and on without any kind of punctuation at all and you have no idea from the way they are typing whether they are happy sad mad kidding serious or whatever and therefore you have no idea how to respond back to them so you take a guess and you usually end up guessing wrong so you end up making it worse than if you ignored them in the first place and you wonder if they talk in the same monotone that they write in and you hope not because anybody who talked like that in real life would make everyone around them want to slit their wrists just to get away and that reminds me of that scene in airplane where whathisname is telling his life story to the passengers next to him and they all end up killing themselves and


ok, I'll stop now...


----------



## Guest

bosslady said:


> the thing i hate the most is when people go on and on and on without any kind of punctuation at all and you have no idea from the way they are typing whether they are happy sad mad kidding serious or whatever and therefore you have no idea how to respond back to them so you take a guess and you usually end up guessing wrong so you end up making it worse than if you ignored them in the first place and you wonder if they talk in the same monotone that they write in and you hope not because anybody who talked like that in real life would make everyone around them want to slit their wrists just to get away and that reminds me of that scene in airplane where whathisname is telling his life story to the passengers next to him and they all end up killing themselves and
> 
> ok, I'll stop now...


It was dealing with people like that that caused my drinking problem.


----------



## Annalog

Bacardi Jim said:


> It was dealing with people like that that caused my drinking problem.


I wondered how long it would be before that that that would be used. 

EDIT:
P.S. Robin, I love the Jasper Fforde quote. I doubt that section would have the same impact in an audio book version.


----------



## bosslady402

Bacardi Jim said:


> It was dealing with people like that that caused my drinking problem.


Drinking is a problem??


----------



## Mikuto

Only when you do it like that


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Leslie:  if we never use contractions, people might think we're androids or Vulcans.

robin:  love Jasper Fforde. . .

bosslady:  channel e e cummings much?  

Oh, and I remembered the other 'word from courtroom shows' on Bonnie Hunt the other day.  The word is 'spunt'.  As in "She was always at that bar; she really spunt a lot of time there."

Ann


----------



## Guest

bosslady said:


> Drinking is a problem??


I drink.
I get drunk.
I fall down.
No problem.


----------



## Leslie

Ann Von Hagel said:


> Leslie: if we never use contractions, people might think we're androids or Vulcans.


There could be worse things to be...


----------



## drenee

Subject verb disagreement


----------



## sam

KimmyA said:


> I cannot stand to hear a person say 'I seen'. ex: 'I seen a dog run in the yard'


Funny that you should mention this, I just read an email for work that went out to a few hundred people at different companies and that was the first thing out of the entire email that I noticed! Exact quote would be "I never seen him come out." AGGHHHH!

The frustrating part is they probably proofed the email and didn't see anything wrong.

Sam


----------



## chynared21

Leslie said:


> "Well, he um...shat everywhere and it took some time to take care of it." She just looked at me with this amazed expression and finally said, "You are the first student I have ever had in 40 years who knew the past tense of that verb."
> 
> Go me! LOL
> 
> L


*LMAO...thanks for the lesson Leslie. I learned something new today *


----------



## chynared21

Lotus said:


> Using an apostrophe as the plural isn't necessarily the only way to make those plural, it's a style issue. Many books/publications use CDs, DVDs, TVs, and it is also correct. AP (Associated Press) style calls for using just an S for multiple letters (TVs, IOUs), and an apostrophe and an S for single letters (she got all A's). As long as it's consistent throughout your writing, you should be fine.


*I've always used a lower case "s" when referring to multiple DVDs, etc. Using an apostrophe just didn't feel appropriate. It is good to know that either form would be acceptable. *


----------



## chynared21

bosslady said:


> the thing i hate the most is when people go on and on and on without any kind of punctuation at all and you have no idea from the way they are typing whether they are happy sad mad kidding serious or whatever and therefore you have no idea how to respond back to them so you take a guess and you usually end up guessing wrong so you end up making it worse than if you ignored them in the first place and you wonder if they talk in the same monotone that they write in and you hope not because anybody who talked like that in real life would make everyone around them want to slit their wrists just to get away and that reminds me of that scene in airplane where whathisname is telling his life story to the passengers next to him and they all end up killing themselves and
> 
> ok, I'll stop now...


*LOL, I know of someone on another board who loves to write one long paragraph without punctuation and yet, she over uses apostrophes. I had asked my girlfriend if she spoke the same way she wrote and apparently she doesn 't. *


----------



## Chad Winters

Leslie said:


> I had a patient show up in the ER and his mother, when asked about his past medical history said he had had "the sign of Mighty Jesus."
> 
> Anyone? Anyone? LR probably knows.
> 
> L


How about "Fireballs in my Utricle"?


----------



## Chad Winters

Bacardi Jim said:


> Spinal meningitis


That in itself is a grammar problem. You can have a bacterial meningitis or a viral meningitis or a fungal meningitis, but since the meninges that are inflammed are lining the spinal cord and the brain in one compartment, its redundant to call it "spinal meningitis" as all meningitis is spinal. The fluid circulates freely between the spinal cord and the brain. Doctors never use that term (....or should never).


----------



## drenee

Medical terminology has definitely evolved over the years.  There is an older movie (black and white, probably mid '40s, '50s,) and the doctor makes a definition of hydrophobia on a patient that was, I believe, hit by a car, or some other non-related injury.  That line cracks me up every time.


----------



## Angela

Well, I have had quite a few chuckles reading this thread and wish I had been here to join in the discussion. Most of my grammar pet peeves were listed. The only one I did not notice was *idea/ideal*. I have a friend who continually misuses these two words; along with *then/than * and *lose/loose*. My 19 year old niece always uses the word *know* instead of *now* and when she emails me, she addresses me as *Ant Angie*.



robin.goodfellow said:


> I know the feeling. I have the same problem with words that end in -in, adding the g.
> 
> Like my own name. 9 times out of 10 I end up typing "robing". And this has been my name my entire life.
> 
> ~robing


Robin, I have a similar problem because of my last name, *Wayt*. When typing the words *way* or *away* I tend to type wayt and then have to backspace the *t*. I have done this so much that now when typing my last name I will backspace the t and have to put it back!


----------



## SongbirdVB

OOooo!  I thought of another one.  People who use the word MUTE when they mean MOOT.  I have a friend who is very well educated, but she is always telling me that "______ is a mute point."  Drives me a little nuts.


----------



## libro

SongbirdVB said:


> OOooo! I thought of another one. People who use the word MUTE when they mean MOOT. I have a friend who is very well educated, but she is always telling me that "______ is a mute point." Drives me a little nuts.


I take it she didn't go to law school?


----------



## SongbirdVB

libro said:


> I take it she didn't go to law school?


LOL! Nope, not law school.

I also have an ex-husband who pronounced the word "armoire" as ardmore. Considering I used to live in Oklahoma, not far from Ardmore, I got quite a chuckle out of it.


----------



## Guest

SongbirdVB said:


> LOL! Nope, not law school.
> 
> I also have an ex-husband who pronounced the word "armoire" as ardmore. Considering I used to live in Oklahoma, not far from Ardmore, I got quite a chuckle out of it.


At least he didn't pronounce it "chifferobe."


----------



## SongbirdVB

Bacardi Jim said:


> At least he didn't pronounce it "chifferobe."


I could have lived with that, although I would have been looking for Jem, Scout, and Atticus...


----------



## thejackylking #884

My biggest is when people use bring when they should use take.

"Can you bring this to your mother when you go?"

It's so simple I don't know how people screw it up.

Bring something to me
Take something to someone else

See, simple


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Bring and take is local usage I think. . . .which is covered fairly thoroughly in a different thread. . . .

Ann


----------



## thejackylking #884

Actually I made the comment in the other thread as well.  However I see it in too many places for it to totally be a local speak issue.  I should have put it here too start with.


----------



## crebel

Total time logged in: 1 days, 23 hours and 5 minutes (at the top of Kindleboards)

I'm so close!  Less than an hour and the plural will agree at 2 days!  "1 days" has aggravated me for days!  I have been following this thread all along and don't think anyone has mentioned "back behind" - maybe this is local speak rather than just bad grammar; all I know is that it makes me crazy!


----------



## crebel

Total time logged in: 2 days, 3 minutes

All better now!


----------



## patrisha w.

thejackylking said:


> My biggest is when people use bring when they should use take.
> 
> "Can you bring this to your mother when you go?"
> 
> It's so simple I don't know how people screw it up.
> 
> Bring something to me
> Take something to someone else
> 
> See, simple


"Waiting on..." when they really means "Waiting for..."

When I dismissed my classes there were always people hovering around the door "waiting on" their friends... Grr!

Patricia


----------



## PJ

Okay, I know this thread has died out but after reading the whole thing a few of my biggest pet peeves aren't here.  

First is using adjectives in place of adverbs.  I hear this all the time on television, the news, advertising it's everywhere.  I keep hearing myself say "ly" to fix the sentence. Or the use of good in place of well.

The next is the improper use of borrow and lend.  You cannot "borrow" me something.  

And finally, and this is almost exclusively found in speech not in writing (I hope), is using "like" as an interjection CONSTANTLY.


----------



## 12bcamping

There's a motorcycle shop nearby that says, "We Rent Harley's"---this is on their print ads, billboards, etc.  I always want to stop in and say, "You rent Harley's what?"


----------



## dixielogs

marianner said:


> I'm a little surprised no one has yet mentioned my pet peeve, using loose instead of lose.


oh I hate that one! It makes me crazy!


----------



## kevindorsey

Oh crap...grammar police here too.


----------



## LaraAmber

I personally can't believe no one stated this one yet: *Irregardless* I will stop a person and make them repeat him/herself, I don't care if it is in the middle of a staff meeting. I hate that "word".

I get frustrated with people who don't know the difference between a comma, semi-colon, and colon. Another constant irritant for me is mixing plural and singular nouns and pronouns in a sentence.

Incorrect: Someone left their Kindle in the bathroom. 
Correct: Someone left his or her Kindle in the bathroom. I'm now holding it for ransom.

The last one is "mono a mono". It means "hand to hand" not "man to man". It's _unarmed combat_ you unlettered dunce.

My coworkers depends on me to proofread all his correspondence. If he sends out an email or letter with an error, the boss calls him and rants about "make sure she reads it first".

Lara Amber


----------



## Leslie

> I hate that "word".


I am not picking on you personally, Lara, because this is a common mistake, but it bugs me when people place commas and periods incorrectly with quotations. Commas and periods are always inside the quote -- at least in American English usage.

I hate that "word."

"Grammar pet peeves," said Leslie, "drive me wicked up the wall."

A natural effect of using the kindle is that you like reading "more."

And so on...

L


----------



## Jeff

LaraAmber said:


> The last one is "mono a mono". It means "hand to hand" not "man to man". It's _unarmed combat_ you unlettered dunce.


I think the common usage is mano-a-mano. It may have become popular in bullfights when two matadors alternated in competition; thus the man to man interpretation.


----------



## LaraAmber

Leslie said:


> I am not picking on you personally, Lara, because this is a common mistake, but it bugs me when people place commas and periods incorrectly with quotations. Commas and periods are always inside the quote -- at least in American English usage.
> 
> I hate that "word."
> 
> "Grammar pet peeves," said Leslie, "drive me wicked up the wall."
> 
> A natural effect of using the kindle is that you like reading "more."
> 
> And so on...
> 
> L


I was taught the British system: the period goes inside the quotation marks when it's part of a complete sentence. If it not a sentence, it goes outside the mark. The British system is much more logical. Now if I could just stop using an extra "u" in words so the bloody spellcheckers would leave me alone.

Lara Amber


----------



## Kind

These types of grammar errors will continue to get worse. I mean, teens and people in their early 20's have been using short cuts via e-mails, sms, and such.  People these days don't seem to care too much.


----------



## 1131

PJ said:


> Okay, I know this thread has died out but after reading the whole thing a few of my biggest pet peeves aren't here.
> 
> First is using adjectives in place of adverbs. I hear this all the time on television, the news, advertising it's everywhere. I keep hearing myself say "ly" to fix the sentence. Or the use of good in place of well.
> 
> The next is the improper use of borrow and lend. You cannot "borrow" me something.
> 
> And finally, and this is almost exclusively found in speech not in writing (I hope), is using "like" as an interjection CONSTANTLY.


I'm one of those people you don't like because of like. When I get tired I like  say like a lot. But I do like  slap myself and tell me to like  knock it off. I'm like  really tired right now so I can't like  help myself. Does it help if I'm like  really sorry and promise to stop?

My pet peeve is "do you want to go with" I keep waiting for the end of the sentence. Something like along the lines of "Do you want to go with the grizzly bear when he dances and twirls down the street?"


----------



## Tippy

LaraAmber said:


> I was taught the British system: the period goes inside the quotation marks when it's part of a complete sentence. If it not a sentence, it goes outside the mark. The British system is much more logical. Now if I could just stop using an extra "u" in words so the bloody spellcheckers would leave me alone.
> 
> Lara, I like the British system. It is very logical. I believe I will begin to use that format. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## MAGreen

I am sure I am guilty of all of these transgressions, especially when I am tired and and type the words without thinking. Most of the time, I would like to think I am not too bad about it. My pet peeves have aleady been listed...thanks for saving me the time!


----------



## thejackylking #884

Jeff said:


> I think the common usage is mano-a-mano. It may have become popular in bullfights when two matadors alternated in competition; thus the man to man interpretation.





LaraAmber said:


> The last one is "mono a mono". It means "hand to hand" not "man to man". It's _unarmed combat_ you unlettered dunce.
> 
> Lara Amber


Actually said this way it would be "one to one" not "hand to hand" so before you start calling other people unlettered make sure you are correct.


----------



## Rhiathame

the two that one of my co-workers and I cringe at all the time are:

"It is a mute point" vs. "It is a moot point" 
"We need to flush this out" vs. "We need to flesh this out"

The sad part is that these are misused/quoted all the time by the CTO of our company. It drives us both nuts.

Of course the question becomes, if the point is mute then is it also moot?


----------



## Thumper

The perfection of Word Grammar Help...


----------



## kevindorsey

Lose and Loose gets mixed a LOT.


----------



## sigrosenblum

All very interesting. My pet--I have many--is the growing use of "a" for "an." Can anyone tell me the reason for this trend? Even our literate President does this. I wince when I hear a line such as: "He is a architect." How about youse?

Sig 
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Kathy

imallbs said:


> I'm one of those people you don't like because of like. When I get tired I like  say like a lot. But I do like  slap myself and tell me to like  knock it off. I'm like  really tired right now so I can't like  help myself. Does it help if I'm like  really sorry and promise to stop?
> 
> My pet peeve is "do you want to go with" I keep waiting for the end of the sentence. Something like along the lines of "Do you want to go with the grizzly bear when he dances and twirls down the street?"


My sister does this. She says like after every word in a sentence. I never say anything and I'm sure I say things that irrigate her.


----------



## KindleKay (aka #1652)

Well, I shall throw my 2 cents in, although I have LOADS of grammer mistakes and will rarely, if ever, correct someone on their grammer.  (although, the new teenage way of text-talk and writing drives me INSANE!!)

My biggest pet peeve stems from my job.  I am the head teller of a large credit union at their main branch.  NOTHING drives me crazier than when people come in and say something along the lines of, "I need to make a deposit to my chekings account."  Or, "I need the balance in my checkings."

This happens a LOT!  You would be surprised.  I usually repeat the request to the person with a smile using "checking"...singular.  They never catch on, but I hope that subliminally they get what I am doing.  Maybe.


----------



## marianneg

Oh, I can't remember if it's been mentioned yet or not, but a huge pet peeve of mine is when people say "try and" instead of "try to."  Especially if I'm reading it, it always makes me stumble.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Here's another one--practically universal: Safety deposit box. It's safe deposit box.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## El

did/done

I cringe every time I hear someone say he or she done something. 
I did it.
I have done it.
I done it.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Here's another universal goof--usually not noticed:

"I could care less." No. It's "I couldn't care less." Think it through.

Sig 
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## chynared21

sigrosenblum said:


> All very interesting. My pet--I have many--is the growing use of "a" for "an." Can anyone tell me the reason for this trend? Even our literate President does this. I wince when I hear a line such as: "He is a architect." How about youse?
> 
> Sig
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


*LOL....the use of youse is widely used where I live. Our daughter is being taught to use "an" before a word that begins with a vowel. It is probably the easiest way to remember which word to use. *


----------



## sigrosenblum

chynared21 said:


> *LOL....the use of youse is widely used where I live. Our daughter is being taught to use "an" before a word that begins with a vowel. It is probably the easiest way to remember which word to use. *


Yes, so very easy. And yet....

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## geoffthomas

I am enjoying this thread a lot.
I find it almost impossible to watch the evening news because of the incorrect grammar.
And they get paid to talk.  So you would think that they could talk correctly.


----------



## sigrosenblum

geoffthomas said:


> I am enjoying this thread a lot.
> I find it almost impossible to watch the evening news because of the incorrect grammar.
> And they get paid to talk. So you would think that they could talk correctly.


I'm glad to hear that there is someone else who grinds teeth and growls at the screen. I had a book idea, which I offer free to any writer or publisher. I would be too upset to attempt it, though I write about wars with Olympian calm.

It would be a collection of all the dumb mistakes made by our illustrious talking heads. It could be a cooperative venture. Just put a classified ad in the Book Review section of the NY Times, and you'll be flooded.

I started to collect these grammer-goofs way back when, but gave up when I noticed that I wasn't shaving and lounged around in my pajamas all day--a sure sign of clinical depression. So I threw away my notes and have felt fine ever since.

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

Is this thread dead, or can I add one more?


People who use "literally" simply to reinforce what they want to say...  as in

"This is literally delicious!"

"Traffic was so bad this morning it took me literally all day to get to work!"

or my favorite...

"I was so upset that I literally died!"


----------



## Leslie

No thread is dead here, Susan. Thanks for those examples....good pet peeves, I agree!

L


----------



## Susan in VA

sam said:


> Funny that you should mention this, I just read an email for work that went out to a few hundred people at different companies and that was the first thing out of the entire email that I noticed! Exact quote would be "I never seen him come out." AGGHHHH!
> 
> The frustrating part is they probably proofed the email and didn't see anything wrong.
> 
> Sam


It always amazes me when I see signs with mistakes (either spelling or grammar). I mean, anybody can make a typo or a too-hurried mistake in a quick email, but when you see an engraved company sign.... Think about how many people had to look at that between the first order that went to the engraving company and the final attaching-to-the-wall, and none of them noticed??


----------



## sigrosenblum

Funny, but "literally" really doesn't bother me. I am literally indifferent about it, to be literal. I am not defending the usage, you understand, but the dictionary does give "really and actually" as synonyms.

Does this prove anything? Perhaps that our peeves are subjective. Not mine, however, I am quite sure.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

LaraAmber said:


> I was taught the British system: the period goes inside the quotation marks when it's part of a complete sentence. If it not a sentence, it goes outside the mark. The British system is much more logical. Now if I could just stop using an extra "u" in words so the bloody spellcheckers would leave me alone.
> 
> Lara Amber


Oh so THAT'S why!! I learned English from my British father, and have long since adjusted most of what I say and write to American usage, but could never understand why my outside-the-quotes usage kept being marked wrong in college essays when it was the only way that made sense <g>. I didn't realize that there was a difference. After twenty years of proofreading other people's contracts, I can still learn something new...


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> Is this thread dead, or can I add one more?
> 
> People who use "literally" simply to reinforce what they want to say... as in
> 
> "This is literally delicious!"
> 
> "Traffic was so bad this morning it took me literally all day to get to work!"
> 
> or my favorite...
> 
> "I was so upset that I literally died!"


I think I just made this mistake over on another thread. Uh-oh. Oh well, my excuse is that I am tired. LOL.

L


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> It always amazes me when I see signs with mistakes (either spelling or grammar). I mean, anybody can make a typo or a too-hurried mistake in a quick email, but when you see an engraved company sign.... Think about how many people had to look at that between the first order that went to the engraving company and the final attaching-to-the-wall, and none of them noticed??


Along those lines, which of the following is correct?

A. The American Nurse's Assocation
B. The American Nurses' Assocation
C. The American Nurses Assocation

spoiler space
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
V

B. is technically correct. It is nurses, plural (there must be more than one nurse in the assocation) and the nurses own the association, thus the apostrophe for possessive. Interestingly, they made the corporate decision to go with C. They probably figured that more people would get it right without any apostrophe at all vs. trying to figure out the correct placement of the apostrophe.

Still, it drives me nuts every time I look at it.

L


----------



## Susan in VA

imallbs said:


> My pet peeve is "do you want to go with" I keep waiting for the end of the sentence. Something like along the lines of "Do you want to go with the grizzly bear when he dances and twirls down the street?"


That one seems to be most prevalent in Minnesota and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania... I think it started as a direct translation of the German, which doesn't require anything beyond the "with", and in those parts of the country it just stuck. And the rest of us are stuck holding our breath waiting for the rest of the sentence....

Some unusual regional usages can be grating, but I don't think they're as annoying as the mistakes that arise from just not caring enough to learn the language properly to begin with.

(Uh-oh. I'm sorry I discovered this thread. Stop me before I turn it into my personal soapbox.)


----------



## sigrosenblum

Regionalisms can be terribly misleading. Long ago, when I was an ad agency president and a bit full of myself, I was visiting a client in the Deep South. As I left, his last words to me were, "Now you come back and see us, hear?"

I did not realize that this was simply the local equivalent of "Goodbye"--and little else!

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Funny, but "literally" really doesn't bother me. I am literally indifferent about it, to be literal. I am not defending the usage, you understand, but the dictionary does give "really and actually" as synonyms.
> 
> Does this prove anything? Perhaps that our peeves are subjective. Not mine, however, I am quite sure.
> 
> Sig
> 
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


I know that dictionaries walk a fine line between the originally correct usage and the actual usage as it develops over time, but some of them are just too quick to cave.


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> Still, it drives me nuts every time I look at it.
> 
> L


It would bug me too. Especially if it were MY association.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Regionalisms can be terribly misleading. Long ago, when I was an ad agency president and a bit full of myself, I was visiting a client in the Deep South. As I left, his last words to me were, "Now you come back and see us, hear?"
> 
> I did not realize that this was simply the local equivalent of "Goodbye"--and little else!
> 
> Sig
> 
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/
> 
> And I bet you made a pest of yourself by taking it literally and coming back to visit frequently, right?
> 
> This sounds like the beginning of a new thread... I hope you don't mind that I'm going to take your little story and use it to start a new one!


----------



## Meemo

LaraAmber said:


> I was taught the British system: the period goes inside the quotation marks when it's part of a complete sentence. If it not a sentence, it goes outside the mark. The British system is much more logical. Now if I could just stop using an extra "u" in words so the bloody spellcheckers would leave me alone.
> 
> Lara Amber


I was taught that way too, Lara - never knew there was another way to do it correctly. And I learned it here in the US. Go figure!


----------



## Meemo

*Loose* & *lose* bother me, I see them a lot on weight loss boards. Same thing with *desert* & *dessert*. I got the good-speller gene from my mom. It drives me nuts to see a sign outside a business with a word misspelled. And in the newspaper or on TV? It really drives me crazy! But what bugs me the most is seeing my own errors - if I can I'll go in & edit a post to fix a typo. If I can't, it just bugs the heck out of me!

On message boards I just ignore the spelling and/or grammatical errors - unless the offender is putting him/herself out there as being oh-so-much more intelligent than everyone else - then I just might take aim.

Another peeve of mine (this one's oral, not written) is *realtor*. It isn't "reel-a-tor". It's "reel-ter". (That's one I'd probably never have thought much about if my dad hadn't gone into real estate after he retired. Now I carry that little torch for him. )


----------



## 1131

Susan in VA said:


> That one seems to be most prevalent in Minnesota and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania... I think it started as a direct translation of the German, which doesn't require anything beyond the "with", and in those parts of the country it just stuck. And the rest of us are stuck holding our breath waiting for the rest of the sentence....
> 
> Some unusual regional usages can be grating, but I don't think they're as annoying as the mistakes that arise from just not caring enough to learn the language properly to begin with.
> 
> (Uh-oh. I'm sorry I discovered this thread. Stop me before I turn it into my personal soapbox.)


I first heard that one in Northern Illinois. Since moving back to I've only had to hear it a few times. But as annoying as that is, I agree with you that not caring is more annoying. I had a conversation with a gentleman who would say things like "you and me should go to a movie". He told me that he didn't care if he was wrong he could say things any way he wanted because "peoples will get it if they're smart enough". We didn't go to a movie.


----------



## drenee

Susan in VA said:


> It always amazes me when I see signs with mistakes (either spelling or grammar). I mean, anybody can make a typo or a too-hurried mistake in a quick email, but when you see an engraved company sign.... Think about how many people had to look at that between the first order that went to the engraving company and the final attaching-to-the-wall, and none of them noticed??


That is a particular pet peeve of mine as well. There was a billboard along Rt. 7 in Ohio about a year ago that misused your/you're. A billboard!! It bugged me so much I started using the WV side of the Ohio river for my travels. 
deb


----------



## Susan in VA

imallbs said:


> I first heard that one in Northern Illinois. Since moving back to the Inland Northwest I've only had to hear it a few times. But as annoying as that is, I agree with you that not caring is more annoying. I had a conversation with a gentleman who would say things like "you and me should go to a movie". He told me that he didn't care if he was wrong he could say things any way he wanted because "peoples will get it if they're smart enough". We didn't go to a movie.


Yeah, it's the not-caring part that's worst. Not everybody learned it right as a child (I certainly didn't, English is my second language), but it's the apathetic attitude of some adults that bugs me. Sometimes it's even outright aggressive, like with your movie fan. 
If somebody worked with electronics (just as an example), and I used one of their circuit boards to hammer a nail into the wall just because it was a convenient tool and I couldn't be bothered to find a hammer, they'd be furious, right? Well, the language is my tool for work, and I get very frustrated by people blunting my tools.


----------



## Susan in VA

drenee said:


> That is a particular pet peeve of mine as well. There was a billboard along Rt. 7 in Ohio about a year ago that misused your/you're. A billboard!! It bugged me so much I started using the WV side of the Ohio river for my travels.
> deb


  That's the kind of thing I'd do, just so I wouldn't have to grit my teeth every time I drove by.


----------



## Meemo

Susan in VA said:


> That's the kind of thing I'd do, just so I wouldn't have to grit my teeth every time I drove by.


My husband was in the A.F. - at one of his last assignments they were expecting a visit from some high-ranking official. They had a welcome sign at the front gate - a word was misspelled. I called HQ & told them they might want to change it. I don't remember for sure but I think the word might've been secretary. They told me they'd already been alerted but thanked me anyway.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

El said:


> did/done
> 
> I cringe every time I hear someone say he or she done something.
> I did it.
> I have done it.
> I done it.


I done did it.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Why, can you tell me, are reporters "embedded" with the troops when they can simply be said to be "with" the troops. What in the world does "embedded" add?

"Dick Smith, who is with the First Division reported that..."

Perhaps this would be better: "Dick Smith, who is in a locus shared by the First Division and has daily physical contact with the fighting men and women, sharing their meals and their most traumatic moments and does not simply slip in and out of the combat area as the correspondents of other networks have been known to do, reported that..."

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## drenee

Sig, 
I feel pretty sure it has something to do with self importance.  But I have a feeling you already know that.
deb


----------



## sigrosenblum

drenee said:


> Sig,
> I feel pretty sure it has something to do with self importance. But I have a feeling you already know that.
> deb


Could be. Perhaps somewhat like politicians and some academics who use fancy language to cover simplistic ideas. Which, in turn, reminds me of the comment by a 13-year-old who heard one of FDR's Fireside Chats:

"It couldn't have been much of a speech because I understood every word of it."

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

Meemo said:


> My husband was in the A.F. - at one of his last assignments they were expecting a visit from some high-ranking official. They had a welcome sign at the front gate - a word was misspelled. I called HQ & told them they might want to change it. I don't remember for sure but I think the word might've been secretary. They told me they'd already been alerted but thanked me anyway.


So strange that people don't take a little extra trouble to get it right at least on those occasions when it's more important than just the out-of-order sign on the Coke machine. Like, say, on a job application....


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Could be. Perhaps somewhat like politicians and some academics who use fancy language to cover simplistic ideas. Which, in turn, reminds me of the comment by a 13-year-old who heard one of FDR's Fireside Chats:
> 
> "It couldn't have been much of a speech because I understood every word of it."
> 
> Sig
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


  Maybe that should be a guideline for speechwriters.... it's only really good if a 13-year-old can understand it.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Maybe that should be a guideline for speechwriters.... it's only really good if a 13-year-old can understand it.


Amen. Pass it on, folks.

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Meemo

Susan in VA said:


> So strange that people don't take a little extra trouble to get it right at least on those occasions when it's more important than just the out-of-order sign on the Coke machine. Like, say, on a job application....


Yep, as someone who used to take & screen job applications, I advised my daughters to be VERY careful when they filled out an application, and especially when they put together a resume. I told them how many went straight into the trash because of misspelled words, bad grammar, dirty paper, etc. "But Mom, that's so mean!" I told them it might seem mean, but when you have 40-50 applications to screen for one job, the first cuts happen for reasons like that. (And oh by the way - if you're dropping off an application, dress like you're coming in to interview.)


----------



## geoffthomas

Yep.
The first thing that HR people do is to "screen" the resumes in the mail and look for reasons to eliminate them, not look for matches.
So if the job says MUST have shoe-repair experience, then if you do not mention those words your resume gets discarded.


----------



## Cat

I stopped reading this thread pages ago. It smelled of high snobbery. High school cliques giggle about those they think aren't up to their level of popularity, or some such thing. The only difference I see between y'all and them is that you're giggling at people who make spelling and grammar mistakes, thus deeming us not as intelligent, and worthy of public embarrassment. Thanks, you're so kind, and showing a level of graciousness toward those who aren't as grammatically skilled that you should indeed be proud of yourselves .

I had a little t_rant_rum in another thread, but I decided to finally air my feelings about this thread.
Repeat post: You guys could give us posters who don't know all the grammar rules, but try to do our best, a complex what with all you brainiacs whining about your pet peeves, and how painfully terrible it is to read our mistakes. No, you don't look snobby in that this thread at all . Personally, I'd prefer you politely correct me so I can learn, but hey, complain about us and make people feel inhibited about posting amongst such brilliance - whatever *coffmakesyoufeelsuperiorcoff* floats your boat.


----------



## drenee

Cat, I want to be the first to apologize for anything that I posted that offended you.  I do not believe that was the intent of anyone here.  So sorry you think so.


----------



## Susan in VA

Cat, the intent here was not to make fun of anybody.  

We all make grammar and spelling mistakes.  Sometimes they're accidental typos, and sometimes they're caused by too little sleep or too many distractions.  

And sometimes they happen because we didn't learn some particular rule right as kids.  Lots of people are in that situation  --  because their parents didn't speak English, because they didn't have good teachers, or maybe because they weren't interested in learning as kids. 

But as adults, we can see where we need a little help.  And we can learn how to use our language properly.  There have been a few posts here by people saying that they didn't understand some particular construction, and asking for an explanation, which was gladly given without any hint of criticism or condescension.  

I suspect what bothers most of the posters here is not a grammar mistake in itself, but the "why should I care about getting it right"  attitude that is so common.  Many of us are "wordy" people, and we do care.  I don't know what your profession is, but if someone commented on the finer points of your particular expertise, got them wrong, and then said "oh what does it matter anyway", wouldn't you be a little annoyed? 

When someone started this thread, and when many others chimed in, it was a way of venting about something that frustrates us.  No offense was intended.


----------



## geoffthomas

While I have not participated in this thread since early post, I would like to respond to Cat.
I have expressed some pet peeves here myself.  Especially about those who make their livings from the written or spoken word - don't like getting bad grammar or misspellings in books, newspapers or incorrect usage on the tv news.
I also think it is better to "expect" good language usage from our peers rather than let civilization slide into unintelligible gobbledy ****.
However I never thought that any of the remarks here were directed at posters in KB.
I will agree that I have been a little afraid to post here again because I was not sure that I would not make a grammar mistake.  Just stage fright, I was not worried about being attacked.
And I don't think you or anyone else should take the remarks of this thread personally.
Oh, by the way, I spell checked this post.
(Fear)


----------



## chynared21

*I've actually learned quite a bit from this thread and never took offense to anything written here nor did I feel that "mightier than thou" vibe. I can vouch that as a child in school, I wasn't taught many of the "rules" of the English language and as an adult, I am still learning especially now that our daughter is in school. I welcome the constant learning process to better myself...to be better than someone else, no as that's not my intent. I love when I can learn something new each day, no matter how small.

Since we're on the subject...can someone explain the usage of alright and all right? I always get those two mixed up. Thanks *


----------



## Chad Winters

interesting discussion. 
Sounds like the same problem the schools are having. Its not nice to say something is incorrect so its easier to tell everyone they are perfect and special and do not require instruction.


----------



## drenee

I am interested in the alright/all right clarificaiton as well.  Attorneys are constantly using the term, and I can't seem to please anyone with the right usage.
thanks.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Chad Winters has the right idea.

During the Spanish Civil War, the right wing had a slogan: "Long live Death. Down with intelligence." There was enormous anti-intellectualism, which was thought to be the sin of the left. And many of those who were suspected of mere literacy received a bullet in the brain.

Today, perhaps the wisdom of Mark Twain has special relevance: All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence and Success is sure.

Sig 
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## drenee

Is it all right to use alright? Despite the appearance of alright in the works of such well-known writers as Flannery O’Connor, Langston Hughes, and James Joyce, the merger of all and right has never been accepted as standard. This is peculiar, since similar fusions like already and altogether have never raised any objections. The difference may lie in the fact that already and altogether became single words back in the Middle Ages, whereas alright (at least in its current meaning) has only been around for a little over a century and was called out by language critics as a misspelling. You might think a century would be plenty of time for such an unimposing spelling to gain acceptance as a standard variant, and you will undoubtedly come across alright in magazine and newspaper articles. But if you decide to use alright, especially in formal writing, you run the risk that some of your readers will view it as an error, while others may think you are willfully breaking convention. 

I found this online.  Answers it for me.


----------



## Sailor

I aint got no grammer pet peeves.

-Sailor


----------



## chynared21

sailor said:


> I aint got no grammer pet peeves.
> 
> -Sailor


*That's all right 

Thanks drenee for posting that. Maybe that is why I always get so confused *


----------



## Leslie

drenee said:


> Is it all right to use alright? Despite the appearance of alright in the works of such well-known writers as Flannery O'Connor, Langston Hughes, and James Joyce, the merger of all and right has never been accepted as standard. This is peculiar, since similar fusions like already and altogether have never raised any objections. The difference may lie in the fact that already and altogether became single words back in the Middle Ages, whereas alright (at least in its current meaning) has only been around for a little over a century and was called out by language critics as a misspelling. You might think a century would be plenty of time for such an unimposing spelling to gain acceptance as a standard variant, and you will undoubtedly come across alright in magazine and newspaper articles. But if you decide to use alright, especially in formal writing, you run the risk that some of your readers will view it as an error, while others may think you are willfully breaking convention.
> 
> I found this online. Answers it for me.


Hm, interesting, thanks. That makes me curious about alot and a lot, too. Word always corrects it to a lot. Probably worth looking up...

L


----------



## chynared21

MaineWriter said:


> Hm, interesting, thanks. That makes me curious about alot and a lot, too. Word always corrects it to a lot. Probably worth looking up...
> 
> L


*I was taught that it should be "a lot."*


----------



## LauraB

_Alot_ is not a word  .


----------



## drenee

Although a lot of people write it, no such word as alot exists in English. Whether it is "a lot of fun" or "I like you a lot," a lot is always two words. The verdict on alright is less clear. The American Heritage Dictionary (click here) states that alright is generally not all right. The Merriam-Webster Collegiate, however, tends to give some approval to alright (click here). We believe, however, that there is still no strong consensus for using, or need to use, alright.


----------



## Cat

drenee said:


> Cat, I want to be the first to apologize for anything that I posted that offended you. I do not believe that was the intent of anyone here. So sorry you think so.


Thanks, *Drenee*. It's the gathering and clucking about other people who don't do something as well as, or up to the so called standards of the people who are posting their personal peeves that's bothering me. I can't argue that a badly written post can hurt your eyes , but to see a bunch of intelligent people exhibiting such ungracious behavior in the form of publicly airing their peeves in front of the very people who may then feel too self conscious to post is aggravating to me. When I see or experience normally nice, intelligent people twitter about the lack of (fill in blank) in others, and do it within the eyeline of those others, it comes across to me as pompous, and as I've said, ungracious.


Susan in VA said:


> Cat, the intent here was not to make fun of anybody.
> 
> I suspect what bothers most of the posters here is not a grammar mistake in itself, but the "why should I care about getting it right" attitude that is so common. Many of us are "wordy" people, and we do care. I don't know what your profession is, but if someone commented on the finer points of your particular expertise, got them wrong, and then said "oh what does it matter anyway", wouldn't you be a little annoyed?
> 
> When someone started this thread, and when many others chimed in, it was a way of venting about something that frustrates us. No offense was intended.


*Susan*,
Love your cat av 

Perhaps that's not the intent, but can you see where an entire thread, and a long one at that, can make someone feel self conscious about posting among such brilliant grammarlaticians ... grammarsors ... uh, grammar gnotsies?

Were I a fashion expert, I wouldn't cluck, giggle, and complain about the way other people don't know how to dress on a messageboard where everyone posted their pictures. So, I may be "annoyed" at their lack of style offending my superior knowledge, but I wouldn't gather with others publicly in a forum about enjoying Oscar and Emmy gowns, and talk about how you can't stand when someone wears last years heel.

I'm sure no offense was meant, but eventually I took offense. I'll post my garbled grammar and spelling, sometimes intentional, sometimes not, to my hearts content despite, and even sometimes just to spite others. But I know there are people who are affected by the opinions of people and will stop posting as much, or even completely. It's a shame that people care about what strangers on the internet say/think, but this board seems to regard itself as welcoming to all. My "home" board is quite the opposite, lol. They'd prolly give me loads of shite for giving a hoot about someone who cares about what others say/think online.


geoffthomas said:


> While I have not participated in this thread since early post, I would like to respond to Cat.
> I have expressed some pet peeves here myself. *Especially about those who make their livings from the written or spoken word - don't like getting bad grammar or misspellings in books, newspapers or incorrect usage on the tv news.
> I also think it is better to "expect" good language usage from our peers rather than let civilization slide into unintelligible gobbledy ****.*
> However I never thought that any of the remarks here were directed at posters in KB.
> I will agree that I have been a little afraid to post here again because I was not sure that I would not make a grammar mistake. Just stage fright, I was not worried about being attacked.
> And I don't think you or anyone else should take the remarks of this thread personally.
> Oh, by the way, I spell checked this post.
> (Fear)


*Geoff*,
I agree. These are professional arenas, and as such, I expect to read/hear better grammar than I often do. Though, I probably miss a lot because an entire sentence could be structured badly, and I wouldn't know.

Lol, I don't check my posts. The most I do is try to correct the red underline thingy if I can, and preview until at least four more replies have been posted -meaning a long time.


Chad Winters said:


> interesting discussion.
> Sounds like the same problem the schools are having. Its not nice to say something is incorrect so its easier to tell everyone they are perfect and special and do not require instruction.


*Chad*,
Are you implying that that is my perspective? I hope not. I hope my answers above have cleared up that misperception if it was directed towards me.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Cat, the intent here was not to make fun of anybody.
> 
> We all make grammar and spelling mistakes. Sometimes they're accidental typos, and sometimes they're caused by too little sleep or too many distractions.
> 
> And sometimes they happen because we didn't learn some particular rule right as kids. Lots of people are in that situation -- because their parents didn't speak English, because they didn't have good teachers, or maybe because they weren't interested in learning as kids.
> 
> But as adults, we can see where we need a little help. And we can learn how to use our language properly. There have been a few posts here by people saying that they didn't understand some particular construction, and asking for an explanation, which was gladly given without any hint of criticism or condescension.
> 
> I suspect what bothers most of the posters here is not a grammar mistake in itself, but the "why should I care about getting it right" attitude that is so common. Many of us are "wordy" people, and we do care. I don't know what your profession is, but if someone commented on the finer points of your particular expertise, got them wrong, and then said "oh what does it matter anyway", wouldn't you be a little annoyed?
> 
> When someone started this thread, and when many others chimed in, it was a way of venting about something that frustrates us. No offense was intended.


Most--perhaps all--of us would second this message to Cat. I am a professional writer and have been so for very many years. Yet I am on shaky ground when it comes to spelling, grammer and much else to do with my trade.

Writing, Cat, is very much like tennis: You can imagine that the better players are trying to "dis" you. Or you can simply improve your game. It is much harder--but more rewarding--to improve.

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Cat

sigrosenblum said:


> Most--perhaps all--of us would second this message to Cat. I am a professional writer and have been so for very many years. Yet I am on shaky ground when it comes to spelling, grammer and much else to do with my trade.
> 
> Writing, Cat, is very much like tennis: You can imagine that the better players are trying to "dis" you. Or you can simply improve your game. It is much harder--but more rewarding--to improve.
> 
> Sig
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


Pls see my above post. I believe in bettering oneself, it's the twittering nature of this thread (at least the beginning pages that I read). Alsoplustoo, there is a time and a place ...we are not on a professional forum for grammatical experts. To belittle the skills, or lack thereof, of other people in a public thread on an electronic gadget forum is like football players playing on your tennis court. It ain't da proper place. Ok, ok, I admit my analogies royally sucketh.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Cat said:


> Thanks, *Drenee*. It's the gathering and clucking about other people who don't do something as well as, or up to the so called standards of the people who are posting their personal peeves that's bothering me. I can't argue that a badly written post can hurt your eyes , but to see a bunch of intelligent people exhibiting such ungracious behavior in the form of publicly airing their peeves in front of the very people who may then feel too self conscious to post is aggravating to me. When I see or experience normally nice, intelligent people twitter about the lack of (fill in blank) in others, and do it within the eyeline of those others, it comes across to me as pompous, and as I've said, ungracious.*Susan*,
> Love your cat av
> 
> Perhaps that's not the intent, but can you see where an entire thread, and a long one at that, can make someone feel self conscious about posting among such brilliant grammarlaticians ... grammarsors ... uh, grammar gnotsies?
> 
> Were I a fashion expert, I wouldn't cluck, giggle, and complain about the way other people don't know how to dress on a messageboard where everyone posted their pictures. So, I may be "annoyed" at their lack of style offending my superior knowledge, but I wouldn't gather with others publicly in a forum about enjoying Oscar and Emmy gowns, and talk about how you can't stand when someone wears last years heel.
> 
> I'm sure no offense was meant, but eventually I took offense. I'll post my garbled grammar and spelling, sometimes intentional, sometimes not, to my hearts content despite, and even sometimes just to spite others. But I know there are people who are affected by the opinions of people and will stop posting as much, or even completely. It's a shame that people care about what strangers on the internet say/think, but this board seems to regard itself as welcoming to all. My "home" board is quite the opposite, lol. They'd prolly give me loads of shite for giving a hoot about someone who cares about what others say/think online.*Geoff*,
> I agree. These are professional arenas, and as such, I expect to read/hear better grammar than I often do. Though, I probably miss a lot because an entire sentence could be structured badly, and I wouldn't know.
> 
> Lol, I don't check my posts. The most I do is try to correct the red underline thingy if I can, and preview until at least four more replies have been posted -meaning a long time.*Chad*,
> Are you implying that that is my perspective? I hope not. I hope my answers above have cleared up that misperception if it was directed towards me.


Perhaps you can see it this way, Cat: People are not being denounced. Folks are just airing their pet annoyances without any sense of superiority at all. It's as if they wrote, "I simply can't stand it when a stout woman wears polka dots in a dress and it makes her look much fatter." And then, the writer was met with a blast of outrage from a woman who said, "Oh you are ridiculing fat. Well, let me tell you that fat is beautiful and how dare you hold us up to fun and denunciation!"

Or, another person might write that he couldn't stand today's music, and whatever hapened to melody? And back came a post from a rapper who said that this person was trying to destroy their art and interfere with their living.

You are taking this much too personally, Cat. Some of the grammar peeves have resonated with me. Some have not. So what? I make mistakes, too. I welcome being corrected. What's the big deal here?

You know, one of the great things about KB is the enormous kindness and helpfulness of the members and the admins. I hope, however, that expressing honest feelings to each other won't be off limits. That would be a shame.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

My pet peeve about my gramma is that, when she'd come down from Hibbing to spend the winter with us in Maryland, she'd complain about how warm it was down here.  I'd say, "Oh, knock it off, Gramma!" (smiling).  She would giggle.  I can still picture her, in the stuffed armchair in the corner, her legs would come up off the floor as she giggled.  (She was really short).

Oh, wait, this is about grammar, not grammas, sorry.

Clearly we all have pet peeves, just not all of them related to grammar.  


Betsy


----------



## Leslie

sigrosenblum said:


> Perhaps you can see it this way, Cat: People are not being denounced. Folks are just airing their pet annoyances without any sense of superiority at all. It's as if they wrote, "I simply can't stand it when a stout woman wears polka dots in a dress and it makes her look much fatter." And then, the writer was met with a blast of outrage from a woman who said, "Oh you are ridiculing fat. Well, let me tell you that fat is beautiful and how dare you hold us up to fun and denunciation!"
> 
> Or, another person might write that he couldn't stand today's music, and whatever hapened to melody? And back came a post from a rapper who said that this person was trying to destroy their art and interfere with their living.
> 
> You are taking this much too personally, Cat. Some of the grammer peeves have resonated with me. Some have not. So what? I make mistakes, too. I welcome being corrected. What's the big deal here?
> 
> You know, one of the great things about KB is the enormous kindness and helpfulness of the members and the admins. I hope, however, that expressing honest feelings to each other won't be off limits. That would be a shame.
> 
> Sig
> 
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


Thanks, Sig. Well said.

By the way, it's grammar, not grammer. (Leslie ducks and runs....   )

L


----------



## sigrosenblum

MaineWriter said:


> Thanks, Sig. Well said.
> 
> By the way, it's grammar, not grammer. (Leslie ducks and runs....   )
> 
> L


Thanks Maine-spring (L) for the correction. You see how much I have to learn, Cat? Please don't ask them to throttle this thread. We stumbling writers still need help!

PS To Betsy: Funy, indeed.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Well, it IS my goal to work "Hibbing" into as many KBoards threads as possible (while staying on topic, of course).  Now if we can just get Leslie to throw a picture of Hugh in here...he is an expert on grammar, isn't he, Leslie?

Betsy


----------



## Cat

sigrosenblum said:


> *Perhaps you can see it this way, Cat*: People are not being denounced. Folks are just airing their pet annoyances without any sense of superiority at all. It's as if they wrote, "I simply can't stand it when a stout woman wears polka dots in a dress and it makes her look much fatter." And then, the writer was met with a blast of outrage from a woman who said, *"Oh you are ridiculing fat. Well, let me tell you that fat is beautiful and how dare you hold us up to fun and denunciation!"*
> 
> Or, another person might write that he couldn't stand today's music, and whatever hapened to melody? And back came a post from a rapper who said that this person was trying to destroy their art and interfere with their living.
> *
> You are taking this much too personally, Cat. Some of the grammar peeves have resonated with me. Some have not. So what? I make mistakes, too. I welcome being corrected. * What's the big deal here?
> 
> You know, one of the great things about KB is the enormous kindness and helpfulness of the members and the admins. I hope, however, that *expressing honest feelings to each other won't be off limits.* That would be a shame.
> 
> Sig
> 
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


Perhaps I could, but I don't.

I'm not saying grammatical or spelling errors are beautiful, nor do I support them. I *am* saying this thread has an attitude that I find distasteful in people who present themselves as educated, intelligent _and_ nice and welcoming to all. You've missed my points. *shrug* Oh well.

In your opinion I'm taking this too personally. It does happen to be a hot button issue with me when smart people look down their noses at those with average, or below average intelligence. Nooo, sigh, I'm not saying anyone is looking down their noses, but the whining, grimacing, cackling hen party because people write your instead of you're, or, omg, have trouble w/to, too, two, is, let me repeat, distasteful on a public thread in the eyeline of those offenders.

Some peeves have resonated with me, as well, and some not, but I wouldn't post about _cringing_ when I see certain errors committed on THIS board, when THIS board is about an electronic device and the books that go on it. I have posted that I wouldn't mind being corrected, but this thread isn't -at least it didn't start out that way- about helping anyone correct their post errors.

And, Sig, teaching and learning is a good thing. I'm not asking anyone to throttle that. I'm sorry (sort of) that you don't understand that I've written several times I don't mind being corrected, and that it's the attitude in the beginning of the thread, as that's all I've read, that bothered me. If it's changed in the last half ...great. 
I _am_ sorry that you're making me repeat myself regarding this issue and what I've posted about it _recently._


----------



## Linda Cannon-Mott

This thread was started in innocence as a fun thread as many others here at KB. I don't think the intention was to offend, anger, insult or make anyone feel inferior. Different things get on people's nerves or bother them whether it be a crying baby on an airplane, someone popping gum or bad grammar. I am sure there is not one poster here that hasn't at some point and time used bad grammar. 

A close relative of mine always says, "Where's it at?" which drives me insane but I certainly don't think I am anymore intelligent than he is.

Enough has been said and I think it is time to move on folks. Neither parties should have to continue to defend themselves because it is apparent you will not see eye to eye on this discussion.

Thanks,
Linda
Moderator


----------



## Annalog

Linda Cannon-Mott said:


> ... A close relative of mine always says, "Where's it at?" which drives me insane but I certainly don't think I am anymore intelligent than he is. ...


I agree. My wonderful husband and I have been married for over 35 years. He frequently says "Where is it at?" which drives me crazy, even after all these years.  I hope he keeps driving me crazy for another 35 years with or without the redundant "at."


----------



## pidgeon92

My father-in-law ends every other sentence with "and that." I think it's a geographical thing, not something I've heard anyone say elsewhere....


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

Isn't it ironic? Like rain on your wedding day?

/ducks


----------



## SongbirdVB

pidgeon92 said:


> My father-in-law ends every other sentence with "and that." I think it's a geographical thing, not something I've heard anywhere say elsewhere....


Oh my!! I have a dear friend who does the same thing! I've never heard anyone else who ends a sentence with those two words. Although, with my friend it's more one word - anthat.  When we first started hanging out it was quite distracting, now I don't even notice it.


----------



## pidgeon92

SongbirdVB (but you can call me 641) said:


> Although, with my friend it's more one word - anthat.  When we first started hanging out it was quite distracting, now I don't even notice it.


Actually, that is EXACTLY how he says it.... Shame on me for "correcting" it....

Is your friend from Indiana? My FIL is about 50 miles from Ft. Wayne....


----------



## SongbirdVB

pidgeon92 said:


> Actually, that is EXACTLY how he says it.... Shame on me for "correcting" it....
> 
> Is your friend from Indiana? My FIL is about 50 miles from Ft. Wayne....


I think she's from right here in MN... but she HAS moved around a lot. If I'm not mistaken Indiana is one of the places she lived. Now I'll have to ask her.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Linda Cannon-Mott said:


> This thread was started in innocence as a fun thread as many others here at KB. I don't think the intention was to offend, anger, insult or make anyone feel inferior. Different things get on people's nerves or bother them whether it be a crying baby on an airplane, someone popping gum or bad grammar. I am sure there is not one poster here that hasn't at some point and time used bad grammar.
> 
> A close relative of mine always says, "Where's it at?" which drives me insane but I certainly don't think I am anymore intelligent than he is.
> 
> Enough has been said and I think it is time to move on folks. Neither parties should have to continue to defend themselves because it is apparent you will not see eye to eye on this discussion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Linda
> Moderator


Good advice--as usual.

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## chynared21

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I can still picture her, in the stuffed armchair in the corner, her legs would come up off the floor as she giggled. (She was really short).
> 
> Oh, wait, this is about grammar, not grammas, sorry.


*Ok...I'm going to derail this thread for a minute. Speaking of short...I met Dr. Ruth after the taping of one of her TV shows some years ago. She has a little wood block that she rests her feet on when sitting in a chair and actually stands on it when she's talking to people. She was still quite shorter than me when I stood right next to her...and I'm only 5'3" 

I must have missed the whole "hibbing" thing. Can someone fill me in?

Back to your regularly scheduled program folks )*


----------



## drenee

Betsy, funny story.


----------



## Cat

Linda Cannon-Mott said:


> Enough has been said and I think it is time to move on folks. Neither parties should have to continue to defend themselves because it is apparent you will not see eye to eye on this discussion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Linda
> Moderator


Really? Maybe that's because some who may agree are, indeed, too self conscious to post here much/anymore. 
I resent, also, that you've had a thread go on for pages and pages, but God forbid someone sticks out like a sore thumb and has a completely different opinion about how the posts come across, and now you want to shut it down. 
My opinion, liked or not, agreed with or not, is as valid as all those who have page after page voiced their opinion about grammar peeves. Were I simply being a dickeroo I could see why you'd want to stop it, but I am just criticizing, I am just a dissenting voice, I am allowed that, am I not? Or is this board just expected to sing Kumbaya, and never tell the Emperor he's naked?

I respectfully (sorta  ) disagree with your attempt to shut down a different opinion.


----------



## pidgeon92

Cat said:


> I respectfully (sorta  ) disagree with your attempt to shut down a different opinion.


Your opinion has been noted. Several times. However, if you would like to go on ad nauseum, that is your prerogative.


----------



## Cat

pidgeon92 said:


> Your opinion has been noted. Several times. However, if you would like to go on ad nauseum, that is your prerogative.


wow. 
May I point out that I expressed my unsolicited opinion only once in this thread (I'd started elsewhere, but that was really an inappropriate thread, and I noted it there.) Since then I've only been responding to posts that are directed to me about it, not making any more unsolicited posts, and my first reply to several posters I confined to one post so as not to make numerous posts about an issue that was sticking in my craw. Lastly, it might be the thread itself that's gone on ad nauseum by repeating the same complaints, and each of you backing up the others' pet peeves.

The fact that you think my responding to other people is going on "ad nauseum" leaves me with no alternative than to thank you, Pidge, for your gracious acceptance of my opinion.


----------



## drenee

No one said the thread was going to be shut down.


----------



## Cat

drenee said:


> No one said the thread was going to be shut down.


I should have stated it better ...I meant shut _me_ down, not the thread. oops.


----------



## Chad Winters

Cat: I don't understand why you feel the "grammarians" were directing this at people who are posting on this board. I don't remember any posts that critiqued a post from someone on these boards. It was just very general "I hear people use this incorrectly frequently".


----------



## Linda Cannon-Mott

Cat said:


> I should have stated it better ...I meant shut _me_ down, not the thread. oops.





Cat said:


> I should have stated it better ...I meant shut _me_ down, not the thread. oops.


Perhaps if you read the post you will see it was not directed at you but was in reference to all parties involved. You seem to have taken the thread as a personal attack on yourself and others who use bad grammar. If that indeed were the case we should ALL be offended. All in fun Cat.


----------



## Cat

Chad Winters said:


> Cat: I don't understand why you feel the "grammarians" were directing this at people who are posting on this board. I don't remember any posts that critiqued a post from someone on these boards. It was just very general "I hear people use this incorrectly frequently".


*sigh* I don't really know anymore, either, it's been so long since I quit reading the thread. And I honestly don't want to go back and reread the beginning of the thread. I'm pissing about it, I can't deny it, but I just don't have the oomph to go back and look.  Thanks for the decent question. And, ma I add as a general statement, I appreciate the good attitudes most people have had while responding to me.

Was that ok with you, Pidge, that I replied to someone who asked me a question?


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

In response to Chynared, my sainted mother was from Hibbing, Minnesota and extraordinarily proud of her roots (and her grammar).  I am contractually obligated to work Hibbing into every conversation, just as she did.  Thus, the origins of the KindleBoards axiom, "if Hugh Jackman isn't the answer to the question, Hibbing is."


Betsy


----------



## chynared21

Betsy the Quilter said:


> In response to Chynared, my sainted mother was from Hibbing, Minnesota and extraordinarily proud of her roots (and her grammar). I am contractually obligated to work Hibbing into every conversation, just as she did. Thus, the origins of the KindleBoards axiom, "if Hugh Jackman isn't the answer to the question, Hibbing is."
> 
> Betsy


*LOL, thanks for the story Betsy. Might I say that you do manage to work Hibbing into conversation very well *


----------



## Cat

Linda Cannon-Mott said:


> Perhaps if you read the post you will see it was not directed at you but was in reference to all parties involved. You seem to have taken the thread as a personal attack on yourself and others who use bad grammar. If that indeed were the case we should ALL be offended. All in fun Cat.


Ah, but you didn't try to shut anyone up until a contrary opinion got involved and stuck out like a sore thumb. Before that you let the thread run on and on, ad nauseum one might say, while people posted about what they can't stand, what makes them cringe, what makes them nuts, etc., about other peoples grammar and spelling errors.

Not a personal attack, Linda ...but more like when cheerleaders giggle at the nerdy girls who try out. It's not personal, it's just general mockery of someone who isn't as "good", or (in high school) as popular as the cheerleaders. It can give those who are guilty of not knowing your/you're, or not perfecting a round-off a feeling that ... sigh, I 'm getting tired, I hope you get the point w/out my going on and on. 

Sure, sure, "all in fun" if you have the self confidence to withstand knowing people cringe at your posts. Ha. Ha. Fun _and_ funny. Personally I can think of better things to laugh at for pages and pages. Just sayin'.


----------



## Linda Cannon-Mott

chynared21 said:


> *LOL, thanks for the story Betsy. Might I say that you do manage to work Hibbing into conversation very well *


What is grammatically correct chynared very well or very good?


----------



## chynared21

Linda Cannon-Mott said:


> What is grammatically correct chynared very well or very good?


*LMAO, these days? Who the heck knows? *


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

Shoot, I KNOW I'm bad at grammar and have taken the tests to prove it. Seriously. I was flunking French in college so they tested me and it came back that my grasp of English is so poor, I cannot translate back and forth. Perhaps if we hadn't moved every 3 years I could have gotten some solid schooling...

So, "nitpick" away...I have personally found some peeves funny, some educational and some just sad, I mean come on...


----------



## Linda Cannon-Mott

mom133d said:


> Shoot, I KNOW I'm bad at grammar and have taken the tests to prove it. Seriously. I was flunking French in college so they tested me and it came back that my grasp of English is so poor, I cannot translate back and forth. Perhaps if we hadn't moved every 3 years I could have gotten some solid schooling...
> 
> So, "nitpick" away...I have personally found some peeves funny, some educational and some just sad, I mean come on...


Very well said!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Linda, I think "Very well" works.  At least it did for me.   

Thanks, Chynared, I try to do my mom proud.  I should add that she was raised in a Yugoslav community and she didn't speak English until she started public school.  Her Slovenian, with a little bit of Croatian thrown in (Gramma was Slovenian, Grampa Croatian and my aunt-by-marriage Serbian, BTW) got rusty as time went on but she was very proud of her language skills.  She would correct my speech as long as she lived, fortunately she didn't have to, much, once I got out of school.     I thought it was normal to grow up in a semi-bilingual household.  My dad represented a different group of Eastern Europeans, and there were words in common that they used, like "Stada" for wife (literally "Old Woman").  It's what my dad called my mom, as his father called his wife and as my mom's dad called his wife.

BTW, a friend of mine uses the term "on tomorrow" as in "What are you going to do on tomorrow?"  She's from Tidewater Virginia.  Anyone else use this?

Betsy


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> BTW, a friend of mine uses the term "on tomorrow" as in "What are you going to do on tomorrow?" She's from Tidewater Virginia. Anyone else use this?


I've heard "on the morrow" but not "on tomorrow". I don't hear it frequently.


----------



## chynared21

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Linda, I think "Very well" works. At least it did for me.
> 
> Thanks, Chynared, I try to do my mom proud. I should add that she was raised in a Yugoslav community and she didn't speak English until she started public school. Her Slovenian, with a little bit of Croatian thrown in (Gramma was Slovenian, Grampa Croatian and my aunt-by-marriage Serbian, BTW) got rusty as time went on but she was very proud of her language skills. She would correct my speech as long as she lived, fortunately she didn't have to, much, once I got out of school.  I thought it was normal to grow up in a semi-bilingual household. My dad represented a different group of Eastern Europeans, and there were words in common that they used, like "Stada" for wife (literally "Old Woman"). It's what my dad called my mom, as his father called his wife and as my mom's dad called his wife.
> 
> BTW, a friend of mine uses the term "on tomorrow" as in "What are you going to do on tomorrow?" She's from Tidewater Virginia. Anyone else use this?
> 
> Betsy


*Ok, totally hijacking here 

From what my mom has always told me, the first language I spoke was Chinese. My parents and I lived with my paternal grandparents for a year or so before my brother came along. My grandmother didn't speak English and my grandfather always had a thirst for knowledge. Once I started school, I slowly lost the use of Chinese especially since my grandfather wanted me to speak to him in English, correct whatever needed to be corrected, look up words for him and to teach him how to pronounce those words.

My grandmother would continue to speak to me in Chinese and I'd answer in English. Now throw my mom's mom into the mix and you get one confused kid. My grandparents spoke one dialect of Cantonese and my grandma another  Anyhow, my grandma and I speak in a combination that I call Chinglish...somehow she and I manage to communicate pretty well 

About your friend using "on tomorrow"...could be a "cultural" thing. My g/f in Atlanta has a whole slew of phrases that she uses but by now I know what saying *


----------



## Leslie

Betsy the Quilter said:


> In response to Chynared, my sainted mother was from Hibbing, Minnesota and extraordinarily proud of her roots (and her grammar). I am contractually obligated to work Hibbing into every conversation, just as she did. Thus, the origins of the KindleBoards axiom, "if Hugh Jackman isn't the answer to the question, Hibbing is."
> 
> Betsy


How many times have you mentioned Hibbing and not one picture of Hugh. Time to correct that right now.










Now, to keep this on topic, does one say "riding on a horse" or "riding upon a horse"? Is there a difference? Anyone know?

L


----------



## chynared21

MaineWriter said:


> How many times have you mentioned Hibbing and not one picture of Hugh. Time to correct that right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, to keep this on topic, does one say "riding on a horse" or "riding upon a horse"? Is there a difference? Anyone know?
> 
> L


*Yes...two letters *


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

chynared21 said:


> *Yes...two letters *


'round here, we say "riding a horse"



Betsy


----------



## Susan in VA

Not that we have a whole lot of horses in Alexandria.


----------



## chynared21

Susan in VA said:


> Not that we have a whole lot of horses in Alexandria.


*We only have one stable left here on Staten Island *


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Ahhh, but I'm not really in Alexandria, I'm about six miles south near Ft Belvoir (for those of you for whom that means something) and we have a big boarding stable about 2 miles from here, plus Mt Vernon plus Ft Hunt where the Park Police horses are stabled.  In fact, there is a small "farm" about a mile from our house that had horses when we first lived here, I loved patting them.  Unfortunately they sold and the people who own it now only have loud obnoxious dogs (love dogs just not big ones that rush the fence barking loudly as I walk by).  Not nearly as fun as the horses, who rarely barked.   

Betsy


----------



## Susan in VA

I'm not in Alexandria anymore either    --  just lived there for eight years.  Now a bit further south as well.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

chynared21 said:


> My grandparents spoke one dialect of Cantonese and my grandma another  Anyhow, my grandma and I speak in a combination that I call Chinglish...somehow she and I manage to communicate pretty well.


Sounds like my mom and her parents. Slovenian and Croatian are different variations on a theme. I asked Mom once which one she spoke and it was mostly Slovenian, but with some of Grampa's Croatian words. In later years, when she would talk to Gramma in Slovenian (so we couldn't understand they were gossiping about the neighbors LOL!), more and more English would be in there. Gramma told me once that when she listened to Khrushchev speak at the UN in Russian, she could understand most of what he said, which I thought was interesting.

Betsy


----------



## Ann in Arlington

There's a full stable of horses in Arlington:  on Fort Myer.  They're the horses of the old guard. . . .

Ann


----------



## Susan in VA

Cat said:


> Susan,
> Love your cat av


Thanks. After seeing that pic, people have accused me of owning two cats and a gremlin.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

On topic:

Love that this is on Kindle, I'm pricewatching!











Betsy


----------



## Jeff

Does "my bad" bother anyone else, or am I just an old curmudgeon?


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Does "my bad" bother anyone else, or am I just an old curmudgeon?


Nope, another old curmudgeon right here!

I'll have to go look up how that one started. The first time it was used, presumably as a simplification of "my fault", it was probably funny... I know it hasn't been around very long, so I'd guess that it started in a movie or something.

You could always do the true curmudgeonly thing and, when something is *your* fault, use the Latin. Just as a kind of cosmic balance.


----------



## PJ

Susan in VA said:


> Nope, another old curmudgeon right here!
> 
> I'll have to go look up how that one started. The first time it was used, presumably as a simplification of "my fault", it was probably funny... I know it hasn't been around very long, so I'd guess that it started in a movie or something.
> 
> You could always do the true curmudgeonly thing and, when something is *your* fault, use the Latin. Just as a kind of cosmic balance.


Okay, this intrigued me so I went and did a google search and found this link http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/my-bad.html. It looks like Shakespeare may have used it first . But in the more popular useage it appears to have really gained steam after it's use in the movie "Clueless"


----------



## chynared21

Jeff said:


> Does "my bad" bother anyone else, or am I just an old curmudgeon?


*LOL, one that I am guilty of *


----------



## Jeff

chynared21 said:


> *LOL, one that I am guilty of*


My kids and grandkids all say it too. For some reason it's verbal fingernails on a chalkboard. I can't even tell you why it bothers me.


----------



## Leslie

I actually like "groovy" and when I say it, everyone looks at me like I am ancient enough to have said groovy when it was groovy, even though I never said groovy in its heyday because I was too young.

L


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> I actually like "groovy" and when I say it, everyone looks at me like I am ancient enough to have said groovy when it was groovy, even though I never said groovy in its heyday because I was too young.
> 
> L


Seems like a perfectly good word to me!  I get that reaction when I say something is "neat".


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Seems like a perfectly good word to me!  I get that reaction when I say something is "neat".


I make eyes roll when I say swell.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> I make eyes roll when I say swell.


Do you use that "straight", or sarcastically?


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Do you use that "straight", or sarcastically?


Both, but probably more as an expression of disgust or dissatisfaction. "Oh that's just swell, We have a flat tire."


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Both, but probably more as an expression of disgust or dissatisfaction. "Oh that's just swell, We have a flat tire."


That's how I use it too, more in disgust, and I never get funny looks... must mean that the people around me are old fogeys like me.


----------



## KindleKay (aka #1652)

Have I mentioned lately how grateful I am to the KB moderators?  I mean, SERIOUSLY, everyone, they work HARD to keep this a pleasant place to hang out!!!

(I just got caught up with this thread)


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> That's how I use it too, more in disgust, and I never get funny looks... must mean that the people around me are old fogeys like me.


I'm a Yankee living in a small Texas town. The things I say often causes local eyes to roll. 

I started a similar thread to this one about colloquialisms that was a bit less confrontational, but it's lost somewhere in the dusty depths of KindleBoards.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Jeff, just like in the soap operas, nothing ever dies, find it and bump it!!!

Betsy


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> Seems like a perfectly good word to me!  I get that reaction when I say something is "neat".


I am at the age when we used "neat." I still say it. Also "cool."


----------



## KindleKay (aka #1652)

My "new" word (that I hijacked from Scrubs) is "coolio"


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> I'm a Yankee living in a small Texas town. The things I say often causes local eyes to roll.
> 
> I started a similar thread to this one about colloquialisms that was a bit less confrontational, but it's lost somewhere in the dusty depths of KindleBoards.


I'm surprised I didn't see it while egg hunting. It felt like I looked at every single thread...

And this one is less confrontational now, I think. People are phrasing things more carefully.


----------



## Susan in VA

KindleKay (aka #1652) said:


> My "new" word (that I hijacked from Scrubs) is "coolio"


Isn't that somebody's name?


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> I'm surprised I didn't see it while egg hunting. It felt like I looked at every single thread...


http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,3439.0.html

I bumped it anyway.


----------



## SongbirdVB

Leslie said:


> I am at the age when we used "neat." I still say it. Also "cool."


I still use these as well, I really only get eye rolls when I use "nifty."


----------



## Cat

Sorry, KKay, I ain't no Stepford Wife. Thankfully, I think most of the mods don't expect that from me. 
I'll voice my opinion if I want even if it's contrary to the majority, or even the whole. [drama] God Bless America, and free speech. [/drama]

On another note, since I've begun reading this thread again, it's nice to see a turn towards teaching, learning, and playfulness instead of the teeth gnashing, and woe is me attitudes for having to read/put up with such _horrific_ grammar.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Relax, Cat - no one's out to get you, and let's lighten up on the Stepford Wife insults.


----------



## Cat

Harvey said:


> Relax, Cat - no one's out to get you, and let's lighten up on the Stepford Wife insults.


ummm ... *Reconsiders KKay's intent* ... ok.
I s'pose she may not have been implying that a Stepford Wife environment was what she wanted, or what the mods do. I admit that with no one agreeing publicly with me on this issue, I may be getting hyper sensitive about each remark.

My apologies for the SW comment.

"Ahhhhhhh" <-- me relaxing.


----------



## chynared21

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Jeff, just like in the soap operas, nothing ever dies, find it and bump it!!!
> 
> Betsy


*If they don't find the body...there is always a chance someone will be resurrected *


----------



## chynared21

Jeff said:


> My kids and grandkids all say it too. For some reason it's verbal fingernails on a chalkboard. I can't even tell you why it bothers me.


*It's just one of those things you can't explain 

I don't use it while speaking, only on forums and such. I tend to use "colorful" words which wouldn't translate very well on forums*


----------



## geoffthomas

Hey look, even when I am "with it" I am not.
A while back I finally learned to be confortable with "being jiggy with that".
And liked it.
Only to find out that it was never widely used.
Apparently no-one ever used it outside of the Fresh Prince of Belair show.
Even Will Smith seldom said it elsewhere.
And I almost never watched the show.
So go figure.


----------



## KBoards Admin

^ Thanks, Cat. I'm going to relax now, too.


----------



## Tippy

Jeff said:


> Does "my bad" bother anyone else, or am I just an old curmudgeon?


I absolutely do not get "my bad". My daughter uses this and it drives me crazy. Of course I made the mistake of telling her how I felt. Let me tell you "my bad".


----------



## JimJ

Susan in VA said:


> Is this thread dead, or can I add one more?
> 
> People who use "literally" simply to reinforce what they want to say... as in
> 
> "This is literally delicious!"
> 
> "Traffic was so bad this morning it took me literally all day to get to work!"
> 
> or my favorite...
> 
> "I was so upset that I literally died!"


This one is mine as well. I guess I shouldn't throw stones because I know I've done it myself when I wasn't thinking. By the way, there's a blog dedicated entirely to this error: http://literally.barelyfitz.com/

I think my favorite example was provided by Jerry Falwell:
"If you and I do not speak up now, this homosexual steamroller will literally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way"


----------



## Leslie

JimJ said:


> This one is mine as well. I guess I shouldn't throw stones because I know I've done it myself when I wasn't thinking. By the way, there's a blog dedicated entirely to this error: http://literally.barelyfitz.com/
> 
> I think my favorite example was provided by Jerry Falwell:
> "If you and I do not speak up now, this homosexual steamroller will literally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way"


Oh, funny. And they had a link to misused apostrophes, one of my pet peeves!


----------



## Susan in VA

JimJ said:


> I think my favorite example was provided by Jerry Falwell:
> "If you and I do not speak up now, this homosexual steamroller will literally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way"


ROFL. Not literally, though.


----------



## Cat

Not even metaphorically.


----------



## Susan in VA

I'm not sure how I would metaphorically roll on the floor <g>.


----------



## Cat

Ohhh, durrr. I thought you were commenting on Falwell's statement, and that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, so I was just commenting that his statement wasn't even true metaphorically, but that's cuz I brain farted -as I often do. _Literally!_


----------



## Susan in VA

Cat said:


> that's cuz I brain farted -as I often do. _Literally!_


Now that's not a pretty picture.


----------



## sigrosenblum

I've been bouncing around a lot of posts from authors and wannabees (Sp?) and have been struck by the number who trip over the too/to trap: "It is on my too-read list." "I try not to be to concerned." Some of this must be simple lack of attention from those who know better. I do it, to(!). But these were _writers_--so the errors jumped out at me. Any comments, friends?

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## PJ

Those are the cases that annoy me.  It's when I see things like to/too, there/their switches or see people using an adjective in place of an adverb in professional communication that I want to scream "Please use propper English."  I am not only talking about written communication but spoken as well.  Especially where there is a script, and thus no excuse of "it just slipped out."  I know we all make mistakes.  I know I do especially when posting on KindleBoards .  But the media and to a great extent television entertainment programming serve as an example to many people of the proper use of the English language.  If they can't hear propper grammar on the news how can we have any hope they will learn it elsewhere.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

OK this reminds me of a funny story we were told here at work...

So the boss is telling us that his wife has been working with disadvantaged children. One of these kids has already been kicked out of Head Start. One day she was driving the child some where and he was eating those Scooby Doo bone shaped graham crackers singing, " Scooby Scooby Doo, Where you is?" When she told him the correct lyrics (Where are you?) He responded "That's what I said! Where you is!"


----------



## Zeronewbury

The free-range apostrophe and the wild noxious superfluous quotation mark.  They have become a blight on the landscape.  I will not buy from a store that has random quotation marks in their advertising.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Zeronewbury said:


> The free-range apostrophe and the wild noxious superfluous quotation mark. They have become a blight on the landscape. I will not buy from a store that has random quotation marks in their advertising.


Could you give us examples of these? Thanks.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## jaylynn

Re the above:

At the grocery store:   Careful!! "Hot" chicken!!

On a truck:  Four Season's Landscaping-- We're the "Best"!!------ two-for-one grammar crimes!


----------



## sigrosenblum

Perhaps I am more sensitive these days. Or this thread lets me vent! But I just tripped over "I write lots of storeys." And "Perhaps they will publish there books." All from writers. But, you know, if I didn't have spell-check, I would be rong two!

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

jaylynn said:


> Re the above:
> 
> At the grocery store: Careful!! "Hot" chicken!!
> 
> On a truck: Four Season's Landscaping-- We're the "Best"!!------ two-for-one grammar crimes!


  Those are annoying, yes. When I'm out shopping with my father, he always reads those out loud as "Caution, so-called hot chicken", just to point out what they appear to be saying.... unfortunately I don't think the sign writers would understand his point even if they overheard it.


----------



## geoffthomas

Susan in VA said:


> Those are annoying, yes. When I'm out shopping with my father, he always reads those out loud as "Caution, so-called hot chicken", just to point out what they appear to be saying.... unfortunately I don't think the sign writers would understand his point even if they overheard it.


You are right, of course.
But......
That is just the point, they should understand it.
Where has our educational system gone wrong?


----------



## Susan in VA

PJ said:


> Those are the cases that annoy me. It's when I see things like to/too, there/their switches or see people using an adjective in place of an adverb in professional communication that I want to scream "Please use propper English." I am not only talking about written communication but spoken as well. Especially where there is a script, and thus no excuse of "it just slipped out." I know we all make mistakes. I know I do especially when posting on KindleBoards . But the media and to a great extent television entertainment programming serve as an example to many people of the proper use of the English language. If they can't hear propper grammar on the news how can we have any hope they will learn it elsewhere.


Worse yet, to me, is the fact that publishers and authors of children's books let so much poor grammar and spelling into their books. I've seen some that had maybe a hundred words (learn-to-read books) and half a dozen spelling mistakes in those. There is simply no excuse for doing that with material for children.


----------



## Susan in VA

geoffthomas said:


> You are right, of course.
> But......
> That is just the point, they should understand it.
> Where has our ecucational system gone wrong?


There's a long list.... I think everyone has a theory on that.

Mine is that it all boils down to apathy. People don't care about getting things done right. It's not just language, it's so many other fields too.

Of course, I tend to think that if a business is sloppy in its advertising (like the "hot" chicken sign), then it's probably sloppy in the other work it does as well, and I prefer not to use its services if I can avoid it. But I realize that that's an extreme reaction on my part.


----------



## Meemo

geoffthomas said:


> You are right, of course.
> But......
> That is just the point, they should understand it.
> Where has our educational system gone wrong?


Among other things, they started worrying more about damaging a student's fragile self-esteem than correcting grammatical and spelling errors.


----------



## tlrowley

Any love for Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo?


----------



## Meemo

tlrowley said:


> Any love for Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo?


I love to eat it - tasty, high in protein, low in fat!

But that's probably not your point.....


----------



## tlrowley

I didn't explain my point well at all, sorry. My point was that the sentence - Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo - is grammatically correct (Wiki link). This absolutely amazes me!


----------



## Meemo

tlrowley said:


> I didn't explain my point well at all, sorry. My point was that the sentence - Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo - is grammatically correct (Wiki link). This absolutely amazes me!


Yowie!


----------



## intinst

Grammatically correct and correct to the ears and eyes apparently are not the same.


----------



## tlrowley

No one said English was easy


----------



## Leslie

Seen in the wild: a misplaced apostrophe. Centaur's?


----------



## Chad Winters

Leslie said:


> Seen in the wild: a misplaced apostrophe. Centaur's?


That may be the least of their problems!!


----------



## Aravis60

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> That may be the least of their problems!!


ROFL!!


----------



## drenee

That is disturbing on so many levels.


----------



## Susan in VA

Uh...  but....  never mind, I think I don't want to know.


----------



## Chad Winters

Any idea what "VI SES SNART" means?


----------



## Chad Winters

ahh.... according to Google it is Swedish for: "see you later"


----------



## Leslie

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> ahh.... according to Google it is Swedish for: "see you later"


Well, I learned something new today!

On further scrutiny, I noticed that there were two instances of apostrophes being used correctly in that poster. Two out of three--I suppose in the scheme of grammar mistakes, that's not _too_ bad.


----------



## Chad Winters

I guess if there was only one Alpha horse then horse's stable might be correct.


----------



## Leslie

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> I guess if there was only one Alpha horse then horse's stable might be correct.


Isn't that the idea with the alpha male of any pack? There's only one?

L


----------



## Chad Winters

Leslie said:


> Isn't that the idea with the alpha male of any pack? There's only one?
> 
> L


but horses have herds, not packs  (though they may still have alpha males)

Or they were trying to say the name of a place "Alpha Horses Stables"


----------



## Leslie

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> but horses have herds, not packs  (though they may still have alpha males)
> 
> Or they were trying to say the name of a place "Alpha Horses Stables"


That's what I thought at first but then I went back and read it again and saw that "stable" was singular, so I assumed that meant the alpha horse's stable (home).

Although, come to think of it, shouldn't it be the alpha centaur's stable? Centaurs and horses aren't the same thing, are they? I don't think so. How did he switch from being a centaur to a horse in the space of one poster? Seriously, this centaur needs an editor!

I can't believe how much time I have wasted studying this stupid poster! LOL

L


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

"It is on my too-read list."

"Also read" list?  

Betsy


----------



## Ann in Arlington

It means, Betsy. . . . "I have to read that one, too."  Makes perfect sense!  

Ann


----------



## Meemo

Ann in Arlington said:


> It means, Betsy. . . . "I have to read that one, too." Makes perfect sense!
> 
> Ann


Or perhaps it's been read too much...


----------



## Susan in VA

So glad this has moved beyond centaurs to something more rational.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Not correct: I am amazed to no end that he did that.

Correct: I am amazed no end that he did that.

Comment: "to no end" would mean to no purpose while "no end" would mean without limit.

Sig 
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> Not correct: I am amazed to no end that he did that.
> 
> Correct: I am amazed no end that he did that.
> 
> Comment: "to no end" would mean to no purpose while "no end" would mean without limit.


Could not "I am amazed to no end..." be interpreted as there is no end to the person's amazement?


----------



## marianneg

sigrosenblum said:


> Not correct: I am amazed to no end that he did that.
> 
> Correct: I am amazed no end that he did that.
> 
> Comment: "to no end" would mean to no purpose while "no end" would mean without limit.


Parse it for me and I'll believe it


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> Could not "I am amazed to no end..." be interpreted as there is no end to the person's amazement?


No, I don't think so. But, of course, language is a living, changing thing and the users can agree on what means what.

"It's a fun thing" is now accepted. "He is a architect" is now rampant. "It's a fun read" is everywhere. So if you like "to no end" there are many others who will join you. And some day, it may be entirely legitimate, though illogical--as is "I could care less" which has now replaced the more logical form of "I couldn't care less."

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> And some day, it may be entirely legitimate, though illogical--as is "I could care less" which has now replaced the more logical form of "I couldn't care less."
> Sig


Sig, please tell me you're not saying that "I could care less" is legitimate...


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Sig, please tell me you're not saying that "I could care less" is legitimate...


No, I am saying that it appears with (shocking) regularity and may well be on its way to greater and greater acceptance. One may as well try to stop a tidal wave if that is the case. But it certainly does not--and never will have--my benediction.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> No, I am saying that it appears with (shocking) regularity and may well be on its way to greater and greater acceptance. One may as well try to stop a tidal wave if that is the case. But it certainly does not--and never will have--my benediction.
> 
> Sig


I suspect we're fighting a losing battle there... but I'll keep fighting.

Here's another one that I find frustrating, but I'm not sure whether maybe this is just a regional thing. (Even if so, it still sounds wrong, but if everyone in a particular region grows up saying something one way, I can't really be annoyed at them.)

It's the habit of turning plural nouns into singular ones, as in "I need a scissors" or "You need a pliers to fix this".

Is that standard accepted usage in some part of the country? If it were, I'd stop wincing every time I heard it....


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> I suspect we're fighting a losing battle there... but I'll keep fighting.
> 
> Here's another one that I find frustrating, but I'm not sure whether maybe this is just a regional thing. (Even if so, it still sounds wrong, but if everyone in a particular region grows up saying something one way, I can't really be annoyed at them.)
> 
> It's the habit of turning plural nouns into singular ones, as in "I need a scissors" or "You need a pliers to fix this".
> 
> Is that standard accepted usage in some part of the country? If it were, I'd stop wincing every time I heard it....


Yes, I do think it's regional--and not at all bothersome to my ear. I suppose that "a pair of pliers" would be right, but that 's the long way around. And to ask for "a plier" is unheard of. The simple solution here is just to say--as most do--"the scissors" and "the pliers." Does your ear disagree?

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> Yes, I do think it's regional--and not at all bothersome to my ear. I suppose that "a pair of pliers" would be right, but that 's the long way around. And to ask for "a plier" is unheard of. The simple solution here is just to say--as most do--"the scissors" and "the pliers." Does your ear disagree?


I can understand why objects with binary properties such as scissor, pliers or pants might be plural but panties?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> I can understand why objects with binary properties such as scissor, pliers or pants might be plural but panties?


I am (blush) no expert here. I'll defer to others.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Yes, I do think it's regional--and not at all bothersome to my ear. I suppose that "a pair of pliers" would be right, but that 's the long way around. And to ask for "a plier" is unheard of. The simple solution here is just to say--as most do--"the scissors" and "the pliers." Does your ear disagree?
> 
> Sig


Ah, well, if it's regional I can live with it... 
"The scissors" sounds fine since it doesn't imply a number. It's just the singular "a" that annoyed me. I'll try to get over that now...


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> I can understand why objects with binary properties such as scissor, pliers or pants might be plural but panties?


As a diminutive of pants, why wouldn't the word have the same properties? 
(Unfortunately that immediately brings to mid the burning question of why other unmentionables which *clearly* have binary properties are not treated as such grammatically. But I'll leave that question to you guys to ponder.)


----------



## docjered

For the last ten years I have managed retail in the "inner city". Examples of the local vernacular include:

screams = screens
bubs = light bulbs
fazebo = vanity sink
deadlock = padlock
chimley = chimney
corking = caulk
terlet = toilet
footmat = doormat
room rug = carpet
carpeting = carpet
mastic tape = masking tape
All bolts are screws.
A 5 gallon bucket of paint is a big gallon of paint, as in: "Do you want a gallon of that color?" with the response, "Yes, a big gallon."
They don't *live* anywhere... the vernacular is, "Where do you stay?"
Very few of them play chest (but they baby daddy plays).
Clothing goes in a chester drawers.
They unthaw something for dinner.
... and when it was expensive, it costed too much.

It is a wonder I still speak English.

Tomorrow I start working an hour north in a country town (same company). I wonder if they will understand me.


----------



## Jeff

You folks are way far too serious on this thread.


----------



## KindleKay (aka #1652)

Jeff said:


> You folks are way far too serious on this thread.


Agreed


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> You folks are way far too serious on this thread.


OK. Let's have some lighter moments. This may not be hilarious, but I am trying:

Mark Twain said that the difference between the almost right word and the right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.

Now let's hear some grammatical guffaws.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> You folks are way far too serious on this thread.


*Somebody* has to do it.

_Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind. -- R. Kipling_

We're just trying to help prevent the dilution of that power.


----------



## Meemo

Susan in VA said:


> As a diminutive of pants, why wouldn't the word have the same properties?
> (Unfortunately that immediately brings to mid the burning question of why other unmentionables which *clearly* have binary properties are not treated as such grammatically. But I'll leave that question to you guys to ponder.)


The burning question it brought to my mind was "come to think of it, why pants"? Sometimes the language is a mystery...


----------



## Susan in VA

Meemo said:


> The burning question it brought to my mind was "come to think of it, why pants"? Sometimes the language is a mystery...


I've always thought that it had to do with the way pants were originally constructed. Maybe there's a textile history expert on KB who can weigh in... I think that pants used to be two separate parts, tied or buttoned together at the waist in front and back. Seems to me I saw something like that in a museum once.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Maybe there's a textile history expert on KB who can weigh in...


Betsy! No hats necessary, just information.


----------



## geoffthomas

I am speechless.  I just posted to let you know that people are reading this. I am enjoying it immensely.  Just don't have anything to contribute at this point.  But it is most entertaining and educational. Rock-on.
Just sayin.......


----------



## Leslie

Because apostrophes drive me wicked up the wall:










(Not quite as eye catching as the centaur, but still...)


----------



## Leslie

And lest we think our English brethren have a better command of the English language than we do...they don't.


----------



## Leslie

Classic.










(Isn't the plural of Oreo, Oreoes?)


----------



## Elijsha

Photoshop Rules!


----------



## Jeff

Elijsha said:


> Photoshop Rules!


Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> Because apostrophes drive me wicked up the wall:


There's something similar near where I live, on a street sign. On closer inspection it's not an apostrophe at all but the dark metal fastener that holds the white sign to the post. The fastener is placed exactly where a misplaced apostrophe would be. I've seen it a zillion times but every single time it annoys me.


----------



## jaylynn

A regional quirk that always intrigues me is the Pittsburgh (again!) area tendency to do away with the infinitive of a verb:

That car needs washed.
Her hair needs brushed.

Argh!


And in my beloved Wisconsin:  a vocab quirk-- the use of "bubbler" for drinking fountain/water fountain.  Have never heard anyone else, anywhere, ever use it.


----------



## Aravis60

jaylynn said:


> A regional quirk that always intrigues me is the Pittsburgh (again!) area tendency to do away with the infinitive of a verb:
> 
> That car needs washed.
> Her hair needs brushed.
> 
> Argh!
> 
> And in my beloved Wisconsin: a vocab quirk-- the use of "bubbler" for drinking fountain/water fountain. Have never heard anyone else, anywhere, ever use it.


When our new elementary school was built, we were told that each of the classrooms would have a "bubbler". No one knew what that meant until they told us that it was a drinking fountain attached to the sink.


----------



## jaylynn

Ha!  Maybe it really is a specific kind of fountain attached to a sink.  In WI, it's any drinking fountain, anywhere!!  My Wisconsin-born kids confused their new Oregon friends many times with that one.


----------



## SongbirdVB

jaylynn said:


> A regional quirk that always intrigues me is the Pittsburgh (again!) area tendency to do away with the infinitive of a verb:
> 
> That car needs washed.
> Her hair needs brushed.
> 
> Argh!
> 
> And in my beloved Wisconsin: a vocab quirk-- the use of "bubbler" for drinking fountain/water fountain. Have never heard anyone else, anywhere, ever use it.


To my husband a drinking fountain is a drinking fountain, a water cooler is a bubbler. Took me a while to figure out what he was talking about when he called me to say he bought a bubbler to put in the kitchen.


----------



## Rhiathame

jaylynn said:


> And in my beloved Wisconsin: a vocab quirk-- the use of "bubbler" for drinking fountain/water fountain. Have never heard anyone else, anywhere, ever use it.


I know!! I was so confused when I moved to WI in 4th grade, and frankly so were my classmates. I kept asking where the water fountain was and they didn't know what I was talking about. Some of them even asked how rich my school had been if we had water foutains. It took about a week to get us all straightened out. I have lived in WI now for 26 years but I still call them water fountains.


----------



## jaylynn

^^^  How cute!  They envisioned a fancy school with statues and fountains everywhere.... awww.


----------



## docjered

I almost missed this life due to the soda vs. pop issue. When my father invited my mother out on a first date, in the fifties, he asked her out for a soda (he was from missouri). When they went out, he ordered her a pop (in colorado). She was expecting a soda, which included ice cream, and her feelings were hurt because she thought he changed his mind whilst they were on their date. She didn't date him again for a long time, but eventually they communicated and realized the miscommunication.


----------



## Susan in VA

docjered said:


> I almost missed this life due to the soda vs. pop issue. When my father invited my mother out on a first date, in the fifties, he asked her out for a soda (he was from missouri). When they went out, he ordered her a pop (in colorado). She was expecting a soda, which included ice cream, and her feelings were hurt because she thought he changed his mind whilst they were on their date. She didn't date him again for a long time, but eventually they communicated and realized the miscommunication.


So glad they worked it out! This one ought to be over in "Cultural Misunderstandings" as well


----------



## MonaSW

My closest Starbucks has a sign suggesting trying one of their food parings. Argh. I've mentioned that the sign is misspelled, but no, the misspelled chalk sign remains.


----------



## Susan in VA

MonaSW said:


> My closest Starbucks has a sign suggesting trying one of their food parings. Argh. I've mentioned that the sign is misspelled, but no, the misspelled chalk sign remains.


Eeeew. At my house the parings go in the garbage. 

But if it's only chalk, you might bring along a piece and quietly fix it..... you'll feel better.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> So glad they worked it out! This one ought to be over in "Cultural Misunderstandings" as well


Here's another, which you call to mind, regarding cultural confusions.

Many years ago, my favorite barber who was English said to me, as he draped a striped sheet over my shoulders, "Sig, you are a word man, so perhaps you can help me. When someone gives me a ten or twenty, or even a bigger bill, I say to them, "Do you want change?" and invariably they act, well, indignant or even angry and say something like "Of course!" or "What do you think, Leslie!"

I laughed--as you may--because I knew exactly what had happened to the perplexed Englishman. And the equally perplexed customers. I said, "You asked that because--"

But Leslie cut me off. "I just wanted to know if they wanted all bills or--"

Now it was my turn to interrupt: "Or silver."

"Or what?"

"Silver, Leslie. When you asked if they wanted change, they thought you wanted to keep the entire twenty or fifty or one hundred dollars. Try saying 'silver' and your problem will be over!"

And it was. Thanks for unearthing this long-buried moment. It shows how very amusing--and dangerous--mere words can be!

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> It shows how very amusing--and dangerous--mere words can be!


All the more dangerous if people speak the same (?) language, and don't even realize that they're misunderstanding each other! My hairdresser's from Lebanon, so I don't have to worry about that....

Fun story.


----------



## docjered

Along that line, is the liberal use of the word *up* a midwest colloquialism or is it more widespread? 
wash up
hush up
clean up
go up _to the store_
drive up _to see her_
went up
and the list goes on...


----------



## sigrosenblum

docjered said:


> Along that line, is the liberal use of the word *up* a midwest colloquialism or is it more widespread?
> wash up
> hush up
> clean up
> go up _to the store_
> drive up _to see her_
> went up
> and the list goes on...


No, some of these are used liberally in Brooklyn, NYC and Long Island. But not "hush up" which sounds like a Southernism. In the east it would be "Quiet now" "Keep quiet" "Shut up" "Silence!" "Keep it down" "Hold it down" and other variations.

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> No, some of these are used liberally in Brooklyn, NYC and Long Island. But not "hush up" which sounds like a Southernism. In the east it would be "Quiet now" "Keep quiet" "Shut up" "Silence!" "Keep it down" "Hold it down" and other variations.


Or, speaking to some people, all of those, in random order but with increasing volume and annoyance.


----------



## sigrosenblum

I was quite surprised to see, at the Churchill Centre website (terrific!), that the famous grammatical quote from Winston was not really his. Too bad. Does anyone know the origin or author? Here's the orphaned anecdote:

It seems that one of Churchill's manuscripts had fallen under the pen of a grammatical stickler, who scribbled in the margin that the great man was guilty of ending a sentence with a preposition.

Churchill, never at a loss for words--or an opportunity--riposted marginally: "This is the kind of arrant pedantry I will not up with put!"

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Old Drum

Jaylynn is not quite right to label this a structure from Pittsburgh.



jaylynn said:


> A regional quirk that always intrigues me is the Pittsburgh (again!) area tendency to do away with the infinitive of a verb:
> That car needs washed.
> Her hair needs brushed.


I grew up in Peoria, Illinois and it is quite common. And, it goes as far as Kansas City. I live 60 east of Kansas City. One day the local paper had the following in an ad: We have a lot of houses that need sold.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> I was quite surprised to see, at the Churchill Centre website (terrific!), that the famous grammatical quote from Winston was not really his. Too bad. Does anyone know the origin or author?


Actually we did look that one up a few months ago! Turned out that there is no clear answer. It's been attributed to various people but there are many variations on the phrase and it's not even clear which is the original, let alone who really said it first.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Actually we did look that one up a few months ago! Turned out that there is no clear answer. It's been attributed to various people but there are many variations on the phrase and it's not even clear which is the original, let alone who really said it first.


Thanks. I'm writing a bio of this colorful character. So if I stumble on anything definitive, I'll let you know.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

Sounds like a great project!

Apart from various volumes of quotations and the like, we had checked online and found...

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html

and probably others, but that's the only one that I subsequently quoted in an email and, ahem, "of which I therefore still have the link". (and you know what I would have actually said in person  )


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Sounds like a great project!
> 
> Apart from various volumes of quotations and the like, we had checked online and found...
> 
> http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html
> 
> and probably others, but that's the only one that I subsequently quoted in an email and, ahem, "of which I therefore still have the link". (and you know what I would have actually said in person  )


Most interesting. I don't know where I first heard it. But I will check Martin Gilbert. However, the Churchill Centre has always been quite reliable, so I guess the verdict is in.

Incidentally, if you like, you can read the first chapter of the WC bio at my site. I'd guess I am about a year from actual release.

Thanks for your impressive detective work!

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Incidentally, if you like, you can read the first chapter of the WC bio at my site. I'd guess I am about a year from actual release.


I just did -- and had it been a book sample I'd be one-clicking right now! Lots of detail I didn't know, and I was wishing for the next chapter.



sigrosenblum said:


> Thanks for your impressive detective work!


(I need a curtseying smiley here.) Thanks. Unearthing the background of obscure references (not that this one really counts as obscure) was part of my job for 20-plus years... translation work, mostly commercial/legal... thus the multiple bookshelves of reference books, since almost all of that career was pre-Google.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> I just did -- and had it been a book sample I'd be one-clicking right now! Lots of detail I didn't know, and I was wishing for the next chapter.
> 
> (I need a curtseying smiley here.) Thanks. Unearthing the background of obscure references (not that this one really counts as obscure) was part of my job for 20-plus years... translation work, mostly commercial/legal... thus the multiple bookshelves of reference books, since almost all of that career was pre-Google.


Thanks for the clicking impulse. And now I understand your research virtuosity!

Sig 
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## sigrosenblum

I heard a very smart political commentator on TV use the word "causuality." I had never heard this word before, and thought that it should be "causality." I am--being a writer--over-sensitive to words. But I am very far from being an authority, since I write and speak "by ear" only.

So I looked both words up. And it seems that I was right. "Causuality" is, apparently, an understandable invention.

But the story doesn't end there. I stumbled onto a site where I found an astonishing amount of venom about this simple mistake. The mistake-maker was branded as ignorant, uneducated and worse. The critic was, in turn, tarred and feathered with tantrums.

As I turned with relief to KB, I thought: How wonderful to be where civility and sense are the norm. Your thoughts, friends?

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> "Causuality" is, apparently, an understandable invention.


Hmmm.... a casualty with a clear cause? A causality that ceased to exist? Wonder what they actually meant to say.



sigrosenblum said:


> But the story doesn't end there. I stumbled onto a site where I found an astonishing amount of venom about this simple mistake. The mistake-maker was branded as ignorant, uneducated and worse. The critic was, in turn, tarred and feathered with tantrums.


So many online instances of that... what is it with those people? Are they that antagonistic in real life?



sigrosenblum said:


> As I turned with relief to KB, I thought: How wonderful to be where civility and sense are the norm.


Yes!! That's the reason I keep coming back to this site -- the warmth, the good cheer, the civility... the bemused patience with this thread....


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Hmmm.... a casualty with a clear cause? A causality that ceased to exist? Wonder what they actually meant to say.
> So many online instances of that... what is it with those people? Are they that antagonistic in real life?
> Yes!! That's the reason I keep coming back to this site -- the warmth, the good cheer, the civility... the bemused patience with this thread....


To answer your first: The guy meant to say "causality." Nothing more complicated.

In addition: Bemused patience? Call me odd, but I enjoy it and have learned quite a lot!

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> In addition: Bemused patience? Call me odd, but I enjoy it and have learned quite a lot!


Oh, likewise here... I meant those who are incredulously shaking their heads at the longevity of his thread, and at the passion that some of us can bring to grammar and words


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ah! I misunderstood. Why can't language be more mathematical?

Check today's NY Times for the article on Strunk and White's great gift to us all. It is part celebration, part denigration. And see what else you can find from Mr. Pullman, one of the more agitated critics of the famous "Little Book." He has a longish denunciatory essay somewhere (which I've lost). It is frightening (to me) in its high-tech grammar. But he writes engagingly, if (the subtext) somewhat jealously.

A very interesting and enlightening article, indeed.

Sig 
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Leslie

Here's a link to the New York Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/books/22elem.html?scp=2&sq=strunk%20and%20white&st=cse

Interestingly, *The Elements of Style*, by Strunk and White, is not available on the Kindle, but the original 1918 version (Strunk as solo author) is. And some guy named Stanford Pritchard took it upon himself to update and annotate the 1918 version "for present day use" and publish it as a Kindle book.

L


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> Here's a link to the New York Times article...


Here are the corrections to the article showing that even the Gray Lady can make mistakes: 

[quote author=New York Times]
Because of an editing error, an article on Wednesday about a 50th-anniversary edition of the book "The Elements of Style" misspelled part of the publisher's name. The publisher is Pearson/Longman, not Pierson/Longman.

The article also overlooked an element of style in The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage in referring to Roger Angell's introduction for the fourth edition of the book. He wrote the foreword, not the "forward." (As The Times stylebook notes, a "foreword" is the word before Chapter 1.)
[/quote]


----------



## Leslie

I read those corrections and was really amazed they made the forward/foreword mistake. Misspelling the name of a publisher doesn't seem quite as egregious to me.

L


----------



## sigrosenblum

Leslie said:


> Here's a link to the New York Times article:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/books/22elem.html?schttp=2&sq=strunk%20and%20white&st=cse
> 
> Interestingly, *The Elements of Style*, by Strunk and White, is not available on the Kindle, but the original 1918 version (Strunk as solo author) is. And some guy named Stanford Pritchard took it upon himself to update and annotate the 1918 version "for present day use" and publish it as a Kindle book.
> 
> L


Smart move. But White is more than half the fun. And thanks, Leslie, for the link. I got up this morning feeling guilty that I had not provided it. But you beat me to it!

I stumbled on a site that offers to tell you how to get lots of followers on Twitter. This gal has 8,000. But when I saw all the typos, etc. I was turned off. One that I had not seen before was that she will show you the "ends and outs" of Twittering successfully.

I am eager to see a book which collects all these current malapropisms. And if I wasn't up to my neck in projects, I would do it. I wish I were a traditional publisher again with a staff that could tackle this.

Sig 
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> I read those corrections and was really amazed they made the forward/foreword mistake. Misspelling the name of a publisher doesn't seem quite as egregious to me.


As a self-confessed bumbler of spelling and style, I just thought it was very funny and worth mentioning.

My father was a language purist who became incensed at spelling or grammatical errors and was forever sending off scathing letters to the editor pointing out mistakes. For obvious reasons, I'm much more forgiving.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> As a self-confessed bumbler of spelling and style, I just thought it was very funny and worth mentioning.
> 
> My father was a language purist who became incensed at spelling or grammatical errors and was forever sending off scathing letters to the editor pointing out mistakes. For obvious reasons, I'm much more forgiving.


I'm glade to here that. If I didn't have spiel-check, I don't know howe I would manadge. It's terible to be a riter and yet not trooly control you're tules!

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## sigrosenblum

This morning I heard Robert Gibbs, the administration's spokesman, refer to his job, during an interview, as "the funest." This is a heavyweight endorsement of the new form--new to me at least. I had just gotten used to "a fun job," when the affable Gibbs throws a curve ball: "funest."

Say what you will, there is a certain logic to this deviation from the norm. If a job can be said to be "fine," and then be promoted to "finest," why can't that job be "fun," and then be elevated enthusiastically to "funest"?

Viscerally, I don't find the Gibbs Gibb-erish to my taste. But the language will change, however hard I dig in my heels. And I fully expect the dictionaries to reflect--if not embrace--the new word. Whether he is describing that pressure-cooker job accurately is something else.

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/

P.S. Local authorities tell me it's "funnest." And hardly new. I suppose I appear funnie to them.

P.P.S. I have to admit that "funnest" makes more sense. But "most enjoyable" would be so much better!


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Sig. . . .it's spelled "funnest".  Geesh!  

Ann


----------



## intinst

So its:fun, funner, funnest? My 4th grade teacher would be so surprised that I had it right after all.


----------



## Susan in VA

And it's a perfectly acceptable word.  Ask any kindergarten class.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> And it's a perfectly acceptable word. Ask any kindergarten class.


Parents have to be very careful that they don't pick up cute words from their children and then inject them into adult conversations. I'd mention a few but it might be _funner_ to discuss that in a separate "Words I learned from my kids" thread.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Parents have to be very careful that they don't pick up cute words from their children and then inject them into adult conversations. I'd mention a few but it might be _funner_ to discuss that in a separate "Words I learned from my kids" thread.


Start one!!


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> Sig. . . .it's spelled "funnest". Geesh!
> 
> Ann


I wasn't sure. But what's your authority for that--with all due deference? If it's "finest" from "fine," why "funnest"? Or am I wrong, and it's "finnest"? Then people from Finnland...

Confused,
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

Well, "fine" ends in a vowel, so you just add  -st.    Like the nicest person, the whitest clothes, the bluest sky....  the purplest Oberon  

And "fun" doesn't, so you add  -est....  and I think the idea is that if adding an e to the original word would change the short vowel sound in it to a long vowel, then you have to double the consonant so that there's no change in pronunciation.  ("Funest" looks like it should be pronounced fyoo-nest, whereas with "funnest" there's no doubt about the pronunciation.)

So you'd have brightest and blackest and coldest.
But you'd have to have dimMest and redDest and hotTest, because in each case adding an e would change the original vowel sound.

Does that make sense?  Is there a better way to explain this (because I didn't learn this in a formal grammar class with Actual Rules)?  

And does anybody care besides three or four people on this thread?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Well, "fine" ends in a vowel, so you just add -st. Like the nicest person, the whitest clothes, the bluest sky.... the purplest Oberon
> 
> And "fun" doesn't, so you add -est.... and I think the idea is that if adding an e to the original word would change the short vowel sound in it to a long vowel, then you have to double the consonant so that there's no change in pronunciation. ("Funest" looks like it should be pronounced fyoo-nest, whereas with "funnest" there's no doubt about the pronunciation.)
> 
> So you'd have brightest and blackest and coldest.
> But you'd have to have dimMest and redDest and hotTest, because in each case adding an e would change the original vowel sound.
> 
> Does that make sense? Is there a better way to explain this (because I didn't learn this in a formal grammar class with Actual Rules)?
> 
> And does anybody care besides three or four people on this thread?


Way beyond my language skills. But it does sound right, as you explain it. I will change my post. Let this one serve as a footnote crediting you for the correction. I don't want the kindergarten crowd laughing at me!

Sig
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> P.P.S. I have to admit that "funnest" makes more sense. *But "most enjoyable" would be so much better!*


Even though it's not quite credible for that particular job.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Way beyond my language skills. But it does sound right, as you explain it. I will change my post. Let this one serve as a footnote crediting you for the correction. I don't want the kindergarten crowd laughing at me!
> 
> Sig
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


Um, I didn't correct you... that was Ann, I think...

And your language skills are probably way beyond mine. English isn't my native language.


----------



## Jeff

This might be interesting, Steve Jobs apparently likes Sig's new word too:

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/is-funnest-a-word.aspx


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> This might be interesting, Steve Jobs apparently likes Sig's new word too:
> 
> http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/is-funnest-a-word.aspx


"_If people accept that "fun" is an adjective, they should accept that "fun" can be inflected like other adjectives. If "crazy" becomes "crazier" and "craziest," and "silly" becomes "sillier" and "silliest," why can't "fun" become "funner" and "funnest"?

We told you in Episode 124 that "One-syllable adjectives use the suffixes '-er' or '-est' on the end of the adjective. For example, 'tall' has one syllable, so, if you wanted to compare the height of your family members, you might say, 'I am taller than my sister, but I'm not the tallest in the family.'" If you accept that "fun" is an adjective, the way to make the comparative and superlative forms would be "funner" and "funnest."_ "

The writer seems to be unaware of irregular comparatives and superlatives. According to those rules ("one-syllable adjectives use the suffixes..."), there should also be gooder and goodest.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> According to those rules ("one-syllable adjectives use the suffixes..."), there should also be gooder and goodest.


You mean there's not?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Um, I didn't correct you... that was Ann, I think...
> 
> And your language skills are probably way beyond mine. English isn't my native language.


No, but you gave the convincing explanation. That's what my screen says.

In any case, Jeff's link is on the point--and is exactly what I was about to say! (If Sig was at the lectern, a shower of fruit would be tossed at him. Maybe even a shoe or two.)

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> If Sig was at the lectern, a shower of fruit would be tossed at him. Maybe even a shoe or two.


You can borrow my smiley and beat yourself over the head.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> You can borrow my smiley and beat yourself over the head.


Oh, I do that regularly when writing.

Sig 
http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Oh, I do that regularly when writing.
> 
> Sig
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


The jarring effect of that must be what causes the formatting errors in e-books.


----------



## intinst

No, the reason to do that is it feels so good when you quit.


----------



## PJ

Jeff said:


> This might be interesting, Steve Jobs apparently likes Sig's new word too:
> 
> http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/is-funnest-a-word.aspx


Thank goodness, this explains why fun as an adjective always seemed a bit off to me. And of course funner or funnest really bug me.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

This really is the goodest discussion!

(ducking and running)

Betsy


----------



## Ann in Arlington

sigrosenblum said:


> Way beyond my language skills. But it does sound right, as you explain it. I will change my post. Let this one serve as a footnote crediting you for the correction. I don't want the kindergarten crowd laughing at me!
> 
> Sig
> http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


Don't change your post! It makes the rest nonsensical! I mean, we're talking about a made up word anyway! My post was just by way of a little levity! Besides, kindergartners mostly can't spell anyway. 

But Susan has accurately articulated my thought processes. . . . 

Ann


----------



## Susan in VA

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This really is the goodest discussion!
> 
> (ducking and running)
> 
> Betsy


Humph.
I get the distinct feeling you're laughing at us.


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> Don't change your post! It makes the rest nonsensical! I mean, we're talking about a made up word anyway! My post was just by way of a little levity! Besides, kindergartners mostly can't spell anyway.
> 
> But Susan has accurately articulated my thought processes. . . .
> 
> Ann


Last time I checked he had just added a footnote to it, so it all still makes sense... as much as it ever did 

Speaking of kindergartners, where's that post on kid words?!?


----------



## geoffthomas

Susan in VA said:


> And does anybody care besides three or four people on this thread?


I am still lurking out here. I haven't posted in this thread in quite a while because:
1. The comment/anecdote that I might make you have already made, or
2. I am so tickled with some of the twists that I cannot type/or think coherently for a while.
So please keep on keeping on.
I, for one, will continue to applaude from the wings.


----------



## Susan in VA

An Entirely New Pet Peeve that hasn't been mentioned yet!

It's when people use a word that does not mean remotely what they think it does.  Being close (but wrong) is pretty common, but when the meaning is not even in the same field...  It probably happens to everyone occasionally, but it's annoying when someone habitually uses words picked up somewhere without bothering to check the meaning.

Counts double if they're being pretentious and using foreign phrases without knowing what they mean, or how to spell them, or even what language they are.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Speaking of kindergartners, where's that post on kid words?!?


Your wish is my command:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,7266.msg148736/topicseen.html#msg148736


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Susan in VA said:


> An Entirely New Pet Peeve that hasn't been mentioned yet!
> 
> It's when people use a word that does not mean remotely what they think it does. Being close (but wrong) is pretty common, but when the meaning is not even in the same field... It probably happens to everyone occasionally, but it's annoying when someone habitually uses words picked up somewhere without bothering to check the meaning.
> 
> Counts double if they're being pretentious and using foreign phrases without knowing what they mean, or how to spell them, or even what language they are.


"Inconceivable!"

"I don't think that word means what you think it means."

(Literally)



Ann


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Your wish is my command:


I wish more men said that to me 

Come to think of it, I wish my *cats* had that attitude.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

And your cats wish YOU had that attitude.  . . .



Ann


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> ...I wish my *cats* had that attitude.


I don't do cats.


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> And your cats wish YOU had that attitude. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Ann


Unfortunately that is the actual status in this house, not just their wish.


----------



## crebel

After reading this entire thread I have decided I am naming my next cat or dog Peeve.  That way I will have a pet peeve to contribute.


----------



## geoffthomas

crebel said:


> After reading this entire thread I have decided I am naming my next cat or dog Peeve. That way I will have a pet peeve to contribute.


Oh! (Groan!!!)


----------



## Susan in VA

Puns are on the list of peeves.  Or should be.


----------



## Jeff

crebel said:


> After reading this entire thread I have decided I am naming my next cat or dog Peeve. That way I will have a pet peeve to contribute.


We should name you Hero Heroine for reading this entire thread.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

There was a story on the news about a search and rescue effort for a boy who fell into the river over the weekend.  They interviewed one of the rescue team members who said, "We have boats out on the river and are getting ready to take some canine dogs out on the boats and do some searches with the canine dogs."  

I wonder what other kind of dogs they might use if not canine dogs?

Ann
(On a serious note:  sadly it's not really a rescue effort any more but rather a recovery effort.  Very sad for the family.)


----------



## crebel

Very sad story Ann.  Even though it would still be redundant, maybe he was saying K-9 dogs since K-9 has become synonymous with "police dog"?


----------



## crebel

Susan in VA said:


> Puns are on the list of peeves. Or should be.


Have I killed a nineteen page thread with one lousy pun? Everyone come back and continue to talk amongst yourselves! I will continue to read your posts and learn.


----------



## Leslie

News from Birmingham, England:

*Apostrophe catastrophe for city's street signs
*
By Matthew Cooper

Friday, 30 January 2009

Birmingham City Council has ruled that apostrophes should not feature on its road and street signs. The decision, which the authority hopes will draw a line under decades of dispute, follows a review to establish whether the possessive punctuation mark should be restored to place names such as Kings Norton and Druids Heath.

Martin Mullaney, who leads the city's transportation scrutiny committee, conceded that the new city-wide policy would upset a lot of residents.

But he stressed that the decision not to reintroduce apostrophes, which began to disappear from Birmingham's road signs in the 1950s, had been taken in light of several factors, including the need for consistency and the cost of changing existing signage.

"We are constantly getting residents asking for apostrophes to be put back in and as a council we have got to make a decision one way or another," Mr Mullaney said.

"Both the Plain English Society and the Plain Language Commission have said that there is no rule in Britain with regards to possessive apostrophes in place names."

Mr Mullaney's view was not shared by John Richards, the founder and chairman of the Apostrophe Protection Society: "It seems retrograde, dumbing down really. It is setting a very bad example."


----------



## Leslie

More on the apostrophe catastrophe:

January 30, 2009
*Scene is set for a pedants' revolt as city dares to banish the apostrophe from its street signs*

For defenders of the apostrophe, who are more used to fighting minor skirmishes against greengrocers and butchers, it amounts to a major defeat: the day they lost Birmingham.

After a *tense grammatical debate *Birmingham City Council has decreed that possessive apostrophes shall no longer appear on its street signs.

No ceremony marked this expulsion from the municipality, only a statement from Martin Mullaney, chairman of the council's transportation scrutiny committee. He noted that for some time the apostrophe had been slipping from signs all over the city.

Mr Mullaney argued that since the monarchy no longer owned Kings Heath, or Kings Norton, and since the Acock family no longer owned Acocks Green, the punctuation marks that once appeared in those names were now redundant. Defenders of the apostrophe in Birmingham responded with angry question marks. Much like the names on their street signs, some residents appeared to be possessive. They demanded the return of their apostrophes.

Mr Mullaney, however, stood firm: "The consensus of the city council on the future use of possessive apostrophes in place names is that they should not be reintroduced," he wrote, in a grammatically correct entry on his blog. He added: "This view will, I know, upset a lot of residents."

Mr Mullaney had raised the issue with residents at the beginning of this year. The transportation department was about to erect signs directing people to Kings Heath, and wanted to know whether there ought to be an apostrophe. On a community website, commentators argued that an apostrophe was required. "It's important because it conveys the meaning of the Heath more accurately as belonging to the King - whether this be real or symbolic - in singular possessive terms," wrote one, adding that it was a discussion that had occupied some residents' groups "for some time".

For their part, the Plain English Society and the Plain Language Commission both said there was no rule in Britain with regard to possessive apostrophes in place names.

The US dropped such punctuation in 1890 when the US Board of Geographic Names removed the apostrophe from its database. Only five exceptions have ever been made, including Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, in 1933. Australia followed suit in 2001 for the sake of consistency in the databases used by the emergency services, said Mr Mullaney. "It would be tragic if the ambulance couldn't find your street if you forgot to use the possessive apostrophe."

Above all, there was the cost of reintroducing the marks. If the council gave one road an apostrophe, residents on countless others would want one. "The cost would be astronomical," he said.

The once punctuated suburbs of Kings Heath and Acocks Green were quiet last night: residents appeared to have come to terms with their loss.

On Wheelers Lane, Kings Heath, where the street sign's apostrophe has been painted over, Jean Read, 71, a retired dinner lady, said: "I can't even remember having one."

There was anger, however, at the headquarters of the Apostrophe Protection Society in Lincolnshire. John Richards, the society's founder and chairman, said: "It's setting a very bad example because teachers all over Birmingham are teaching their children punctuation. Then they see road signs with apostrophes removed."


----------



## Jeff

It must be wonderful to have nothing more important in one's life than missing apostrophes.


----------



## Susan in VA

crebel said:


> Have I killed a nineteen page thread with one lousy pun? Everyone come back and continue to talk amongst yourselves! I will continue to read your posts and learn.


Maybe you should try that over at Josh's book thread...


----------



## Susan in VA

A "pedants'  revolt"  --  I like it.

Not to mention the Apostrophe Protection Society.

Wait, is this one left over from April 1st?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Just noticed this NY Times department on grammar. Might be of interest, friends:

http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/the-little-things/

Sig

http://sigrosenblum.7p.com/


----------



## pawlaw aka MXCIX

o.k. I haven't yet read this whole thread, but I started another thread labeled "grossest story" and then felt bad reading part of this thread...I did it for space reasons, but I did modify the title thinking more people might read it now...


----------



## Susan in VA

pawlaw aka MXCIX said:


> o.k. I haven't yet read this whole thread, but I started another thread labeled "grossest story" and then felt bad reading part of this thread...I did it for space reasons, but I did modify the title thinking more people might read it now...


Was there anything wrong with "grossest"?? Sounds fine to me grammatically... now, content-wise, I might not be visiting that thread over lunch, but that's another matter.


----------



## pawlaw aka MXCIX

Susan in VA said:


> Was there anything wrong with "grossest"?? Sounds fine to me grammatically... now, content-wise, I might not be visiting that thread over lunch, but that's another matter.


I didn't think there was anything wrong, but I wasn't sure  so I was thinking better safe than sorry ;0) then I realized you can't change the title once the thread is posted. it changed it on my first post, but the title in the listing still isn't changed...oh well, I tried...


----------



## Susan in VA

There IS some way to do it.  Ask Neversleepsawink, I think she just did it successfully.


----------



## Leslie

I wasn't sure where to post this...this thread seemed as good a place as any, since we all seem to like words. Hyphens get mentioned. It's funny....enjoy.

SCRABBLE LETTERS EXPLAIN HOW THEY ARE COPING IN THE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN.

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2009/5/1hahn.html

L


----------



## Angela

Leslie said:


> I wasn't sure where to post this...this thread seemed as good a place as any, since we all seem to like words. Hyphens get mentioned. It's funny....enjoy.
> 
> SCRABBLE LETTERS EXPLAIN HOW THEY ARE COPING IN THE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN.
> 
> http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2009/5/1hahn.html
> 
> L


LOL that was great! Thanks for postin' it!!


----------



## drenee

crebel said:


> After reading this entire thread I have decided I am naming my next cat or dog Peeve. That way I will have a pet peeve to contribute.


Too funny!!


----------



## marianneg

Here's one to make everyone's head explode (where's a devil emoticon when you need one?):


----------



## PJ

marianner said:


> Here's one to make everyone's head explode (where's a devil emoticon when you need one?):


Here are a couple for you


----------



## intinst

And one more


----------



## marianneg

Thanks


----------



## Susan in VA

Reviving this to add another peeve.

_eager_, adj.: wanting to do or have something very much

_anxious_, adj.: experiencing worry, unease, or nervousness

Note that they are not the same. And although nobody eagerly awaits a visit to the dentist, somehow lots of people seem to anxiously await a new book download.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Hi again:

Yes, this has always bothered me,too. And I am so anxious to let you know!

Sig


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Hi again:
> 
> Yes, this has always bothered me,too. And I am so anxious to let you know!
> 
> Sig


Count on you to brighten my morning!


----------



## Annalog

Susan in VA said:


> Note that they are not the same. And although nobody eagerly awaits a visit to the dentist, somehow lots of people seem to anxiously await a new book download.


Susan, I agree. However I did think of a couple personal instances where the reverse was appropriate for me. 

A crown came off a back tooth while eating a sticky candy. That day I did eagerly await a visit to my dentist. 

Last week while waiting for a plane to finish boarding, I saw a book being read by someone that looked interesting to me. I started the search in the Kindle store just as the announcement was made about the doors closing and turning off all electronic equipment. That one time I anxiously waited for the download, hoping it would finish before the flight attendant came down the aisle to check. 
Anna


----------



## Susan in VA

Annalog said:


> Susan, I agree. However I did think of a couple personal instances where the reverse was appropriate for me.
> 
> A crown came off a back tooth while eating a sticky candy. That day I did eagerly await a visit to my dentist.
> 
> Last week while waiting for a plane to finish boarding, I saw a book being read by someone that looked interesting to me. I started the search in the Kindle store just as the announcement was made about the doors closing and turning off all electronic equipment. That one time I anxiously waited for the download, hoping it would finish before the flight attendant came down the aisle to check.
> Anna


  Great stories.. the perfect exceptions to the rule!


----------



## sigrosenblum

I've been wasting time on Twitter. And it's a wonderland grab-bag of grammar goofs.

Sig


----------



## Susan in VA

Do they use "txt msg" - type abbreviations, is that why?  I don't have a Twitter account; all I know is that there's a space limitation.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Yes, 140 characters. But I'm talking about "their" for "there,"  and that kind of stuff.

Sig


----------



## Susan in VA

Sig, I just overheard somebody who talked like some of your Twitterers (?) write.

Went to a tech support place today, had to wait in line, so I stood there reading my Kindle. The guy in front of me was taking forever, and his girlfriend was off to the side talking on the phone, in full-blown valleyspeak (I didn't think that even existed anymore, but she proved me wrong).

At one point she turned around, looked me up and down, and said something quietly to the person on the phone, and then, apparently after a question from the other end... "uh-huh, one of those, like, book things, you know? It's like a laptop but really it's just a book. I could never do that. I mean, they're like really expensive, right? So they probably have, like, Shakespeare ones only. You know, for those...." more whispering, which I took to be some unflattering comment about people who read Shakespeare and can afford Kindles (no idea what the connection was, in her mind).

Then... "yeah, it looks, like, really weird. Kinda not, you know, but still weird. I mean, it looks like something my brother would want" (with much eye-rolling at this point).

I was proud of myself that I didn't laugh. I might have glared at her a little. 

To her credit, she had obviously at least _heard _of e-readers. And Shakespeare.


----------



## Angela

Susan in VA said:


> Sig, I just overheard somebody who talked like some of your Twitterers (?) write.
> 
> Went to a tech support place today, had to wait in line, so I stood there reading my Kindle. The guy in front of me was taking forever, and his girlfriend was off to the side talking on the phone, in full-blown valleyspeak (I didn't think that even existed anymore, but she proved me wrong).
> 
> At one point she turned around, looked me up and down, and said something quietly to the person on the phone, and then, apparently after a question from the other end... "uh-huh, one of those, like, book things, you know? It's like a laptop but really it's just a book. I could never do that. I mean, they're like really expensive, right? So they probably have, like, Shakespeare ones only. You know, for those...." more whispering, which I took to be some unflattering comment about people who read Shakespeare and can afford Kindles (no idea what the connection was, in her mind).
> 
> Then... "yeah, it looks, like, really weird. Kinda not, you know, but still weird. I mean, it looks like something my brother would want" (with much eye-rolling at this point).
> 
> I was proud of myself that I didn't laugh. I might have glared at her a little.
> 
> To her credit, she had obviously at least _heard _of e-readers. And Shakespeare.


LOL!! Awesome story!


----------



## crebel

Susan in VA said:


> I was proud of myself that I didn't laugh. I might have glared at her a little.
> 
> To her credit, she had obviously at least _heard _of e-readers. And Shakespeare.


You are a Goddess of Control! I probably would have said something snarky....."When you learn how to read you might enjoy a Kindle."


----------



## Susan in VA

crebel said:


> You are a Goddess of Control! I probably would have said something snarky....."When you learn how to read you might enjoy a Kindle."


LOL! I've been called a control freak before (who, me?? Nonsense!), but that one's a new title.

But quite honestly, I just couldn't think of anything appropriate to say right at that moment.


----------



## Rasputina

Mikuto said:


> There, their, and they're, as well as your and you're.
> 
> These are big offenders to me, because they're not something you can generally spellcheck away.


This

along with the annoying misuse of loose when they mean lose.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Just stumbled on this list of frequently mangled words and found it interesting. You might, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_frequently_misused_English_words

Sig


----------



## Jeff

Rasputina said:


> along with the annoying misuse of loose when they mean lose.


Ugh. I do that. Choose and chose too. The logical spellings should really be luse, luze, chuze and choze. I do that too.


----------



## Mom of 4

OK not really a grammer thing but I just learned today...

When _speaking_ the word "the" if the next word begins with a vowel you say "thee".
"The book" "Thee e-reader"
I think I have always said it correctly, just didn't know there was a "rule" about it!


----------



## sigrosenblum

Amazing! One of the things I,too, have always done "correctly" without ever thinking about it! Think of how many other things we do and think and feel--without being conscious of the process, prejudice, presumption!

I just tested this with:

The belief

The assumption

Thanks for the (to me) jolting insight.

Sig


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Just stumbled on this list of frequently mangled words and found it interesting. You might, too:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_frequently_misused_English_words
> 
> Sig


Bookmarked. Nice. Thanks.


----------



## Susan in VA

Mom of 4 said:


> OK not really a grammer thing but I just learned today...
> 
> When _speaking_ the word "the" if the next word begins with a vowel you say "thee".
> "The book" "Thee e-reader"
> * I think I have always said it correctly, just didn't know there was a "rule" about it! *


That's interesting! In textbooks that teach English to speakers of other languages, that's usually lesson two, right there on day one of classes. (Lesson one is when to use a/an.) It's interesting that native English speakers are not aware that there's a rule. You just do it automatically without thinking about it... amazing what amount of language detail gets picked up in childhood, really.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> That's interesting! In textbooks that teach English to speakers of other languages, that's usually lesson two, right there on day one of classes. (Lesson one is when to use a/an.) It's interesting that native English speakers are not aware that there's a rule. You just do it automatically without thinking about it... amazing what amount of language detail gets picked up in childhood, really.


Which is correct when the word begins with an "H"? Is _Ariana's Pride_ an historical novel or a historical novel.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Which is correct when the word begins with an "H"? Is _Ariana's Pride_ an historical novel or a historical novel.


I believe it depends on whether the H is pronounced. If so, then it's a consonant, and you'd use "a".

I just stumbled over that in another thread when I mentioned my herb garden. To me, that's a HHHHerb garden, English style, so it's "a". In the U.S, people say "erb garden", so they use "an". In writing I avoid the issue by saying "my herb garden".

_In Hartford, Hereford, and Hampshire..._


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> _In Hartford, Hereford, and Hampshire..._


_...'urricanes 'ardly ever 'appen._


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> _...'urricanes 'ardly ever 'appen._


...that's "Hever"! 

(OK, now I have to go play that music. On an LP, no less.)


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> ...that's "Hever"!


But is it *an* hever or *a* hever?


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> But is it *an* hever or *a* hever?


In _this_ instance, clearly it must be "a".


Spoiler



No wonder the people who stumble across this thread think we're lunatics.


----------



## Sailor

Susan in VA said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder the people who stumble across this thread think we're lunatics.





Spoiler



Yep! I slaughter the English language and am proud of it!



Actually, this is the second time I have had to use that sentence tonight! 

Sailor


----------



## Susan in VA

sailor said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Yep! I slaughter the English language and am proud of it!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, this is the second time I have had to use that sentence tonight!
> 
> Sailor


So... once it's slaughtered and looks like Angela's snake... what were you planning to use for communication?


----------



## Sailor

Susan in VA said:


> So... once it's slaughtered and looks like Angela's snake... what were you planning to use for communication?


I didn't see Angela's snake. There is always sign language, and I am sure I can slaughter that too.

That is why I will write a western, ya cain't mess 'em up, no good, no how!

Sailor

I stopped this thread cold -- why didn't it work on the gift card thread


----------



## Susan in VA

sailor said:


> I didn't see Angela's snake. There is always sign language, and I am sure I can slaughter that too.
> 
> That is why I will write a western, ya cain't mess 'em up, no good, no how!
> 
> Sailor
> 
> I stopped this thread cold -- why didn't it work on the gift card thread


You did NOT. We've had lots of self-declared grammar-killers here. Eventually they give up on us. Maybe they all go write westerns instead 

Seriously, I didn't know anybody still wrote those anymore, I thought they were an old-fashioned thing. No offense to anyone who writes them, it was just my impression.

Oh, and the snake is over in the "Disgusting" thread. Be forewarned. Don't read it during breakfast.


----------



## ttoomey

Octochick said:


> Here are my two biggest, both of which I have seen on the Amazon board very recently...
> 
> *1)* There is no such word as: *alot* it is *a lot*, two words.


A *lot*!!!!!!! 
And most of the people I know confuse your, for you're. To me there's a huge difference, and sometimes others are offended when I point out their mistakes. Too bad xD


----------



## Ann in Arlington

When people are just talking, you can't tell if they've gotten their homonyms mixed up.  When writing, yeah, it can get annoying.  I usually assume it's an oversight brought on by being in a hurry and don't worry too much about it.  Especially if it's a fairly casual setting -- like here, for instance!    But if it's something that is supposed to be a formal piece: a presentation or advertisement or something, it does grate. . . .

I had a friend in HS and college who couldn't get the homonyms right to save her soul.  You'd think that just by the laws of randomness she'd occasionally get one right but it seemed like she NEVER used the right word.  I tried once to explain the difference and help her learn what she had clearly missed somewhere along the line and . . . .she Did Not Get it.  I think, in retrospect, she had some sort of learning disability that did not enable her to distinguish.  At least she knew she did it and had enough sense to have me look over papers for her to make those obvious corrections before she turned them in!

Ann


----------



## intinst

I think much of the problem with homonyms in writing has come about due to the computer. It doesn't matter to the spell checker whether you use to, two or too in a sentence. If I am writing something that needs to be correct I turn it over to my proofreader (wife). I catch many of the grammar errors, but spelling is an area were I just have a problem. High school grad, some college and tech school, avid reader of books, magazines, comics and newspapers, but can't spell to save my self. Then you add in typos, and the computer spell checker throws up it's hands in surrender. DW catches everything.


----------



## Susan in VA

intinst said:


> spelling is an area were I just have a problem.


We see that... 



intinst said:


> the computer spell checker throws up it's hands in surrender. DW catches everything.


So now we know she didn't read that post... 

_Couldn't resist... sorry intinst, just gentle teasing!_


----------



## intinst

See, told You!


----------



## geoffthomas

Hey Intinst,
I think Susan is picking on you. (lol) (to himself: as if Susan would pick on anyone - ha ha)


----------



## Susan in VA

DD's dad can't tell the difference between _lay_ and _lie _to save his life. (Luckily, DD gets it, and since she was four, she's been correcting him as needed, which is hilarious to watch.) So, since he knows it bugs me, and more importantly, since he doesn't want to be corrected by her constantly, he goes to great lengths to avoid using either word. When he can't think of a synonym in a particular sentence, he'll say "that L-word".

(Yes, I've explained it a number of times. It just doesn't take.)


----------



## Susan in VA

Huh?  What?  Who, me??  Never!!


----------



## geoffthomas

Love ya Susan.
Can't wait to actually meet all you WashDC area folks later in the month.


----------



## intinst

geoffthomas said:


> Hey Intinst,
> I think Susan is picking on you. (lol) (to himself: as if Susan would pick on anyone - ha ha)





Susan in VA said:


> Huh? What? Who, me?? Never!!


Caompared to DW, she's a piker. Course DW has 38 years of practice, since we met , and nearly 37 since I couldn't get away.


----------



## Susan in VA

geoffthomas said:


> Love ya Susan.
> Can't wait to actually meet all you WashDC area folks later in the month.


Awww... thanks.

I'm really looking forward to that too! Just hope Betsy's other commitment allows her to be there. Otherwise I'd vote for rescheduling.


----------



## Susan in VA

intinst said:


> Caompared to DW, she's a piker. Course DW has 38 years of practice, since we met , and nearly 37 since I couldn't get away.


And she has in-person smileys too, so she can get away with more than anyone could in print. Not to mention conciliatory hugs afterwards. Etc.


----------



## NogDog

Using the wrong homonym does not bother me a whole lot. It can be annoying, but many times it can be a simple spelling mistake or typo, unless the author is consistent in its misuse. I often catch myself typing something like "your" instead of "you're" when I'm not really paying specific attention to what my fingers are doing, but rather they are seemingly just taking dictation from the part of my brain that is "saying" the words I am typing. Hopefully I catch the overwhelming majority of those typos when I proofread them.

What _does_ really irk me is when people use a subjective pronoun ("he", "I") where they should be using the objective form ("him", "me"). This seems particularly prevalent among sportscasters and other public speakers who apparently don't know the actual usage, but have somehow come to think that when you're not sure which to use, it _sounds_ more correct (or pretentious?) to use the subjective form.


----------



## marianneg

NogDog said:


> What _does_ really irk me is when people use a subjective pronoun ("he", "I") where they should be using the objective form ("him", "me"). This seems particularly prevalent among sportscasters and other public speakers who apparently don't know the actual usage, but have somehow come to think that when you're not sure which to use, it _sounds_ more correct (or pretentious?) to use the subjective form.


LOL! What gets me is when they use different forms in the same place, eg. her and I. Oh, and overuse of "myself" is another one that I think people use to sound more pretentious.


----------



## Susan in VA

NogDog said:


> What _does_ really irk me is when people use a subjective pronoun ("he", "I") where they should be using the objective form ("him", "me"). This seems particularly prevalent among sportscasters and other public speakers who apparently don't know the actual usage, but have somehow come to think that when you're not sure which to use, it _sounds_ more correct (or pretentious?) to use the subjective form.


I suspect that comes from being corrected many times as kids when they said things like, "Mom, can me and Joe go to the playground?" When they hear "that should be Joe AND I" lots of times, it gets filed away as the correct usage in all cases. Thus the grating (and frequent) use of "xxx happened to Joe and I". <wince>


----------



## sigrosenblum

marianner said:


> LOL! What gets me is when they use different forms in the same place, eg. her and I. Oh, and overuse of "myself" is another one that I think people use to sound more pretentious.


Recalls a joke:

"Reginald, you are so pretentious."

"Who, moi?"


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Recalls a joke:
> 
> "Reginald, you are so pretentious."
> 
> "Who, moi?"


<snicker>


----------



## sigrosenblum

I've been seeing this one recently from aspiring writers, no less:

The use of rout for route: "I'll take the shortest rout."

But I'll still root for them.


----------



## Susan in VA

What bugs me is forte and forte. Two meanings, two origins, TWO pronunciations... but apparently I'm in the minority now with that.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/forte


----------



## NogDog

Susan in VA said:


> What bugs me is forte and forte. Two meanings, two origins, TWO pronunciations... but apparently I'm in the minority now with that.
> 
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/forte


Yeah, the dictionaries have pretty much all surrendered to common usage and now claim that it's OK to effectively say, "Her loud was grammar." 

A somewhat related peeve of mine is restaurants that serve some meat dish "with au jus" or, even worse, "with au jus sauce," which actually translate as "with with juice" and "with with juice sauce."


----------



## Susan in VA

NogDog said:


> A somewhat related peeve of mine is restaurants that serve some meat dish "with au jus" or, even worse, "with au jus sauce," which actually translate as "with with juice" and "with with juice sauce."


Oh yeah... there used to be a restaurant around here that proudly served "roast beef in its own au jus" 

Restaurant menus are a rich source of such things...


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> What bugs me is forte and forte. Two meanings, two origins, TWO pronunciations... but apparently I'm in the minority now with that.
> 
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/forte


You probably answered my post just before I deleted it. I did so because my bad eyes read "fort" somewhere, I think. But, however that was, I soon found myself inconsistent and confused. In any event, thanks for your explanation.

Latin is surely the origin of all these "fort--" words. I recall "fortis" and "fortissimus." And as for French, one author said that it was only English, mispronounced!


----------



## drenee

Seemed appropriate for this thread.


----------



## NogDog

drenee said:


> Seemed appropriate for this thread.


Read it. Enjoyed it. Felt sort of nerdish for doing so.


----------



## sigrosenblum

NogDog said:


> Yeah, the dictionaries have pretty much all surrendered to common usage and now claim that it's OK to effectively say, "Her loud was grammar."
> 
> A somewhat related peeve of mine is restaurants that serve some meat dish "with au jus" or, even worse, "with au jus sauce," which actually translate as "with with juice" and "with with juice sauce."


A similer repetition is found--surprisingly--in many academic footnotes. I insisted on being perverse--until I found--via the Chicago Style oracle--that my perversity was actually correct.

Many auhors say "Quoted in ibid." Chicago (and I) say "Quoted ibid." Ibidem means "In the same place." And "ibid." is the conventional abreviation. But do people read our endnotes? We are lucky if they read our books!


----------



## intinst

NogDog said:


> Read it. Enjoyed it. Felt sort of nerdish for doing so.


Read it and the author's book _Talk To The Hand_, along with _The Grouchy Grammarian_ by Thomas Parrish, enjoyed the reading, doesn't seem to help with the grammar.


----------



## Annalog

Some repetitive usages that I notice are:
the monsoon season - either the seasonal winds season or the rainy season season

the Rillito River - the little river river

the Rio Grande River - the big river river


Anna


----------



## sigrosenblum

Annalog said:


> Some repetitive usages that I notice are:
> the monsoon season - either the seasonal winds season or the rainy season season
> 
> the Rillito River - the little river river
> 
> the Rio Grande River - the big river river
> 
> 
> Anna


Funny and true. Yet my sypathies still go out to authors who are hanging from the dilemma. Will sheltered or unsophisticated readers understand that the Rio Grande is, indeed, a river?

Imagine a line: "They found his battered body in the Rio Grande." What is that? A big plaza? Church? Park? No, I had better say "River."

This is the kind of self-torture writers go through. It's enough to make you drown yourself in the Big River!


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> You probably answered my post just before I deleted it. I did so because my bad eyes read "fort" somewhere, I think. But, however that was, I soon found myself inconsistent and confused. In any event, thanks for your explanation.


Um, no... if you mean my "forte" post, that was not in reply to anything... I guess I missed whatever you posted/deleted.


----------



## Susan in VA

NogDog said:


> Read it. Enjoyed it. Felt sort of nerdish for doing so.


Naaah, don't worry, that's not nerdish.

Nerdish is when you go look up a word in the dictionary, and 45 minutes later you're still reading the dictionary because there was another word right after it that you didn't know, which led you to look up a third just to confirm that it means what you suspect it does, which reminded you that you'd been meaning to look up yet another, and so on...



Spoiler



Happens to me all the time.


----------



## Leslie

Annalog said:


> Some repetitive usages that I notice are:
> the monsoon season - either the seasonal winds season or the rainy season season
> 
> the Rillito River - the little river river
> 
> the Rio Grande River - the big river river
> 
> 
> Anna


also, Pizza pie


----------



## Leslie

Seen yesterday at the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in Cooperstown, NY:










The pet peeve that makes me see red: a misplaced apostrophe. Sigh....

L


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Leslie said:


> Seen yesterday at the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in Cooperstown, NY:
> 
> The pet peeve that makes me see red: a misplaced apostrophe. Sigh....
> 
> L


And did you tell anyone? And, if you did, did they have a clue what you were saying? 

(or maybe it was only one ballplayer and he did a lot of autographs. . . . .)

Ann


----------



## Leslie

Ann in Arlington said:


> And did you tell anyone? And, if you did, did they have a clue what you were saying?


No, I didn't. These people were into baseball, not grammar.



> (or maybe it was only one ballplayer and he did a lot of autographs. . . . .)
> 
> Ann


Then it should be, "Hundreds of a ballplayer's autographs..." Or, if it was only one player, why not name him? Obviously, it was meant to be "Hundreds of ballplayers' autographs..."

L


----------



## Annalog

sigrosenblum said:


> Funny and true. Yet my sympathies still go out to authors who are hanging from the dilemma. Will sheltered or unsophisticated readers understand that the Rio Grande is, indeed, a river?
> 
> Imagine a line: "They found his battered body in the Rio Grande." What is that? A big plaza? Church? Park? No, I had better say "River."
> 
> This is the kind of self-torture writers go through. It's enough to make you drown yourself in the Big River!





Susan in VA said:


> Good point... so when writers don't have a specific target readership, they have to decide on something between going with a higher level of language complexity (risking alienating those who don't understand), and writing at sixth-grade level just to make sure (and risk boring some people).... If you try to find a happy medium, how do you decide what that right level is?


I agree, especially with names of rivers, mountains, etc. While I notice the repetition, it does not bother me. It can be more confusing when the repetition is missing than when it is present. This is especially true now that there is a community named Rillito. We also have Rillito River Park (with repetition), Rillito Park Race Track (without repetition), and River Road (without Rillito). Since the Rillito itself is usually dry, it could also be a reminder that it can be filled with water to call it the Rillito *River*.


----------



## Annalog

Leslie said:


> also, Pizza pie


----------



## sigrosenblum

More mangling:

1. A sign in California: "Firefighter's rock!"

2. A famous newscaster on a major TV station: "Five U.S. forces were shot."

3. A variant of this appears regularly: "Two U. S. troops..."


----------



## Leslie

sigrosenblum said:


> More mangling:
> 
> 3. A variant of this appears regularly: "Two U. S. troops..."


I am always wondering...it seems they use "troop" to be synonymous with "soldier" but I always thought a group of soldiers made up a troop (like the Boy Scouts). But like you said, it always seems that "troops" are getting shot, not soldiers. Is this supposed to make us forget that a troop is a real person? It's more anonymous than soldier?

L


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> I am always wondering...it seems they use "troop" to be synonymous with "soldier" but I always thought a group of soldiers made up a troop (like the Boy Scouts). But like you said, it always seems that "troops" are getting shot, not soldiers. Is this supposed to make us forget that a troop is a real person? It's more anonymous than soldier?


The logic of news organizations escapes me but I can try to clear up a bit of the confusion in military terms: Troop is the unit designation for a company sized unit in the cavalry and special forces. Soldiers in a troop are known as troopers.


----------



## NogDog

Jeff said:


> The logic of news organizations escapes me but I can try to clear up a bit of the confusion in military terms: Troop is the unit designation for a company sized unit in the cavalry and special forces. Soldiers in a troop are known as troopers.


Although there is probably some sergeant in a cavalry troop right now yelling at some private, "Yo, troop, get your butt over here!" 

(PS: Yes, we still have cavalry troops, but generally they do not still have horses. Instead they might be "armored cavalry" in assorted fighting vehicles or "air cavalry" in helicopters. It now refers to the mission/role rather than the precise mode of transportation.)


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Then there's F Troop.  I'm not sure what you call those guys. . . .


----------



## Jeff

NogDog said:


> Although there is probably some sergeant in a cavalry troop right now yelling at some private, "Yo, troop, get your butt over here!"


...and a hundred-forty-four guys fall into formation in front of him.


----------



## Leslie

Leaving the doctor's office this morning, there was a sign in the parking lot:

*Fasten Your Seatbelts*

I realize that "your" can be plural but the sign presumes that there are always multiple people in the car. I was alone and I wear only one seatbelt. I think the sign would be better if it said:
*
Fasten Seatbelts*

or
*
Fasten Your Seatbelt*

Pet peeve of the day.

L


----------



## sigrosenblum

Leslie said:


> Leaving the doctor's office this morning, there was a sign in the parking lot:
> 
> *Fasten Your Seatbelts*


Well, why couldn't it mean "Hey, all of you who leave the office and see this sign, please fasten your seatbelts." It's plural because it is addressing many people. It could have been worse: "Fasten Your seatbelt's."



> I realize that "your" can be plural but the sign presumes that there are always multiple people in the car. I was alone and I wear only one seatbelt. I think the sign would be better if it said:
> *
> Fasten Seatbelts*
> 
> or
> *
> Fasten Your Seatbelt*
> 
> Pet peeve of the day.
> 
> L


----------



## BrassMan

docjered said:


> Along that line, is the liberal use of the word *up* a midwest colloquialism or is it more widespread?
> wash up
> hush up
> clean up
> go up _to the store_
> drive up _to see her_
> went up
> and the list goes on...


I heard a person in line ahead of me ask the cashier, "How much can I make it out up to?"

Is that cool?


----------



## Leslie

sigrosenblum said:


> Well, why couldn't it mean "Hey, all of you who leave the office and see this sign, please fasten your seatbelts." It's plural because it is addressing many people. It could have been worse: "Fasten Your seatbelt's."


Very true!


----------



## sigrosenblum

BrassMan said:


> I heard a person in line ahead of me ask the cashier, "How much can I make it out up to?"
> 
> Is that cool?


Takes a moment to translate. But I'll bet the cashier understood perfectly!


----------



## Meemo

sigrosenblum said:


> Well, why couldn't it mean "Hey, all of you who leave the office and see this sign, please fasten your seatbelts." It's plural because it is addressing many people. It could have been worse: "Fasten Your seatbelt's."


Or "Fasten You're Seatbelt's"


----------



## Leslie

Meemo said:


> Or "Fasten You're Seatbelt's"


My eyes! My eyes!


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> Leaving the doctor's office this morning, there was a sign in the parking lot:
> 
> *Fasten Your Seatbelts*
> 
> I realize that "your" can be plural but the sign presumes that there are always multiple people in the car. I was alone and I wear only one seatbelt. I think the sign would be better if it said:
> *
> Fasten Seatbelts*
> 
> or
> *
> Fasten Your Seatbelt*
> 
> Pet peeve of the day.
> 
> L


The original version also does not take into account that some of us do not only fasten _our own_ seatbelt. Unless they'd rather have people just leave the kids unbuckled.


----------



## sigrosenblum

My apologies to those who got atrial fibrillation over (Dare I say it?) seatbelt's.


----------



## Leslie

They could write:

*All seatbelts must be fastened.
*
Thoughts?


----------



## Dori

All seatbelts fastened when there are no passengers in the seats


----------



## sigrosenblum

Dori said:


> All seatbelts fastened when there are no passengers in the seats


Good point. Plus "must" is too dictatorial. How about "Remember to fasten your seatbelt. We don't need the business!"

Boy, we are really belting this one around!


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Boy, we are really belting this one around!


<ouch>


----------



## Leslie

Or, we could go with the old standard:
*
Buckle Up!*






They used to show this stuff on TV...LOL

L


----------



## sigrosenblum

Suzanne Malveaux, the smart TV reporter, needs to brush up her Latin. Yesterday, she referred to an alumnae--a gal.

Local Latin experts please confirm or correct my mild peeve that:--

1. Alumnae is the plural: "At the upscale all-girl school, the alumnae were gathered on the lawn."

2. Alumna is the feminine singular: "Helen, an alumna, was there, too."

3. The masculine singular is alumnus: "Jack was an alumnus of the all-boy school across the road."

4. The masculine plural is alumni: "Jack was joined by 200 fellow alumni."

Next lesson: Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres...


----------



## docjered

My son just sent me this story from a local newspaper, about a mother suing a school board for damages resultant from the flagrant and continued mispronunciation of her daughter's name by teachers, visitors, and staff. Her name is Le-a. So the question becomes, what is the correct pronunciation of the name Le-a?

Leah??          NO
                                  
Lee - A??       NO
                                   
Lay - a??       NOPE
                                          
Lei??             Guess Again. 


This child attends a school in Livingston Parish, LA.  Her mother is irate because everyone is getting her name wrong.

It's pronounced 'Ledasha'.  

Oh yes, you read it right.
When the Mother was asked about the pronunciation of the name, she said, "the dash don't be silent."   
SO, if you see something come across your desk like this please remember to pronounce the dash.


----------



## Chad Winters

tell her the dash don't have a sound!


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> Next lesson: Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres...


I can't remember anything except: amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> I can't remember anything except: amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant.


But, Jeff, I am surprised at you, pal. I learned it as amo, amas amat, amamus, apopis, akint!

And don't you remember: spito, spitare, chuptooie, splash?

(If you curse, do it in Latin.)


----------



## Leslie

docjered said:


> If they axe you why, just tell them the dash don't be silent.


All these years, I've been calling my friend Helen Peake-Godin, Helen Peake Godin, not Helen PeakedashGodin. She's never corrected me. I wonder why?

L


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> But, Jeff, I am surprised at you, pal. I learned it as amo, amas amat, amamus, apopis, akint!
> 
> And don't you remember: spito, spitare, chuptooie, splash?
> 
> (If you curse, do it in Latin.)


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


>


Are you applauding or cudgelling me about the ears?


----------



## docjered

Given Le-a's mother's line of thinking, shouldn't her daughter's name be pronounced, "Leehyphena"? No, I didn't say that... I cannot afford a lawsuit. <sigh>


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> Are you applauding or cudgelling me about the ears?


Cudgeling =


----------



## Ann in Arlington

On the celebrity apprentice show, Trump's daughter said something to one of the contestants. . .the beauty pageant one, I think. . . about "choosing to forgo" something or other.  Her reply was something like we ". . . . .forgoo it because".  With a big pause before the 'word' she chose -- obviously trying to work out the past tense of forgo.  Mind you, I'm not sure I know what the proper past tense is -- forwent maybe?  -- but I certainly wouldn't have picked "forgoo".

And, for the record, I saw this as a clip on Bonnie Hunt's "Reality Show Word of the Day". . .an offshoot of "TV Courtroom Word of the Day."    I don't watch the Apprentice.  . . or any of the other 'reality' shows either. . . .


----------



## Leslie

Past tense of forgo is forwent, yes.

L


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> 4. The masculine plural is alumni: "Jack was joined by 200 fellow alumni."


This bugs every time I see it on a bumper sticker. (And they're VERY common.) "I'm a XYZ University Alumni" -- always makes me think that that particular institution of higher learning must not have a language department. And that the driver is a pretentious jerk.


Spoiler



Who, me, judgmental?? Nahhh.... 





sigrosenblum said:


> Next lesson: Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres...


Ooohh.... I need to go find my old Asterix books!!  I wonder if they'll have those for the DX....


----------



## Susan in VA

docjered said:


> It's pronounced 'Ledasha'.


Oh. My. This is for real


----------



## Ann in Arlington

sigrosenblum said:


> Next lesson: Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres...


"All Gaul is divided into three parts"


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Susan in VA said:


> Oh. My. This is for real


Snopes says "undetermined": http://www.snopes.com/racial/language/le-a.asp


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> And don't you remember: spito, spitare, chuptooie, splash?


LOL!

My favorite is _Civili derego, fortibus inero. Demes nobus demes trux._



Spoiler



"See, Willie, 'dere 'dey go, forty buses in a row."
" 'Dem is no buses, 'dem is trucks."


----------



## Ann in Arlington

semper ubi sub ubi


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Susan in VA said:


> Naaah, don't worry, that's not nerdish.
> 
> Nerdish is when you go look up a word in the dictionary, and 45 minutes later you're still reading the dictionary because there was another word right after it that you didn't know, which led you to look up a third just to confirm that it means what you suspect it does, which reminded you that you'd been meaning to look up yet another, and so on...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Happens to me all the time.


Doesn't everyone do that?

Betsy


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> Cudgeling =


Thanks (I think).


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Aaaargh.

Just got the invitation to our granddaughter's high school graduation and to the party in her honor.  Her name is on the return and I'm sure she designed the party invitation.  It says...wait for it....


Your Invited




Aaaarghhhh!!!!

Betsy


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> Snopes says "undetermined": http://www.snopes.com/racial/language/le-a.asp


I'm sorry to hear it... it's a great story.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Aaaargh.
> 
> Just got the invitation to our granddaughter's high school graduation and to the party in her honor. Her name is on the return and I'm sure she designed the party invitation. It says...wait for it....
> 
> Your Invited
> 
> Aaaarghhhh!!!!
> 
> Betsy


If this is the one you're blowing off the DC meet up for. . . .I think you now have grounds for reconsidering that decision.


----------



## Susan in VA

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Doesn't everyone do that?
> 
> Betsy


It's harder to do on the Kindle, unfortunately. I'm keeping my Oxford Concise on my nightstand instead of using the K-version.

Especially since even though there's a link to the Kindle version of the Oxford, it does not actually appear to exist. A Twilight Zone book, apparently. Does anyone here have it, and if so, where did you find it?


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Ann in Arlington said:


> If this is the one you're blowing off the DC meet up for. . . .I think you now have grounds for reconsidering that decision.


Blowing off is kind of cold....sob! 

Betsy


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> If this is the one you're blowing off the DC meet up for. . . .I think you now have grounds for reconsidering that decision.


Especially since they'll have to reschedule the graduation for next year anyway, once they realize that she skipped English class too many times.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Smart kid, but I think her great-aunt, my sister-in-law, told her one too many times that it wasn't important that she couldn't spell...and she (the grandgirl) relies too much on spell check.

Betsy


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Well. . . .I suppose I shouldn't talk.

I see now that what I should have said is "If this is the one for whom you're blowing off the DC meet up. . . . . ."


----------



## Susan in VA

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Smart kid, but I think her great-aunt, my sister-in-law, told her one too many times that it wasn't important that she couldn't spell...and she (the grandgirl) relies too much on spell check.
> 
> Betsy


Betsy, I'm sorry, I certainly did not mean to imply that she wasn't smart!

Just, um, linguistically challenged.


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> Well. . . .I suppose I shouldn't talk.
> 
> I see now that what I should have said is "If this is the one for whom you're blowing off the DC meet up. . . . . ."


Somehow it was a lot clearer the first time!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Susan in VA said:


> Betsy, I'm sorry, I certainly did not mean to imply that she wasn't smart!
> 
> Just, um, linguistically challenged.


Nah, you didn't imply that...but to address your point, she's not one to skip classes either. Not saying she never did, but she's quite the bossy good two shoes, just probably doesn't think the spelling is all that important! Sigh 

Betsy.


----------



## Susan in VA

Betsy the Quilter said:


> just probably doesn't think the spelling is all that important! Sigh


Alas, I suspect that most people don't.

(Even though it pains those of us who think that spelling bees are actually fun.  )


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> "All Gaul is divided into three parts"


Correct. A+. Now, who wrote that?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> This bugs every time I see it on a bumper sticker. (And they're VERY common.) "I'm a XYZ University Alumni" -- always makes me think that that particular institution of higher learning must not have a language department. And that the driver is a pretentious jerk.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Who, me, judgmental?? Nahhh....
> 
> 
> Ooohh.... I need to go find my old Asterix books!!  I wonder if they'll have those for the DX....


Never saw that, ever. And I am a bumper sticker noticer.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

sigrosenblum said:


> Correct. A+. Now, who wrote that?


Julius Caesar


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> semper ubi sub ubi


As I've said before: O tempore! O mores!


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> Julius Caesar


Yes, but in what context?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> LOL!
> 
> My favorite is _Civili derego, fortibus inero. Demes nobus demes trux._
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> "See, Willie, 'dere 'dey go, forty buses in a row."
> " 'Dem is no buses, 'dem is trucks."


You got me. I was going to look it up!

Do you know this one? Non ilegitimus sub carborundum


----------



## Ann in Arlington

sigrosenblum said:


> Yes, but in what context?


I believe it had to do with his plans for conquering said Gaul. Or maybe his write up of how he did it. It was a HIGH SCHOOL Latin course. . . .and much has fallen out of my brain. . . . .


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> I believe it had to do with his plans for conquering said Gaul. Or maybe his write up of how he did it. It was a HIGH SCHOOL Latin course. . . .and much has fallen out of my brain. . . . .


You get an A, but not an A+. It was the opening sentence of his great book, "The Gallic Wars." But you are still an honor student with me!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

sigrosenblum said:


> You got me. I was going to look it up!
> 
> Do you know this one? Non ilegitimus sub carborundum


It's all Greek to me.


Betsy


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> Julius Caesar


Well, yeah. But Goscinny and Uderzo made it so much more fun.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> You got me. I was going to look it up!
> 
> Do you know this one? Non ilegitimus sub carborundum


Don't let the


Spoiler



bastards


grind you down.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Don't let the
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> bastards
> 
> 
> grind you down.


Right!


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Well, yeah. But Goscinny and Uderzo made it so much more fun.


OK. I give up on this one.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> OK. I give up on this one.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Goscinny

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix

I only learned just now that the books aren't very well known in the U.S. I have no idea how well they translate into English, even. But translated into German they are hilarious, and addictive. I'll have to try out an English version to see how it compares.

edited to add: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour_in_Asterix


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Goscinny
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix
> 
> I only learned just now that the books aren't very well known in the U.S. I have no idea how well they translate into English, even. But translated into German they are hilarious, and addictive. I'll have to try out an English version to see how it compares.
> 
> edited to add: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour_in_Asterix


Edifying. But you could ask a million Americans and not one would have heard of this. I'm relieved that there wasn't a pun or clever allusion hidden there. I am sure that in an English translation, the examples would have to be invented, since the original puns would not make any sense.

This was the case with Freud's "Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconscious," I seem to remember. Much of the German humor was lost in translation.

One of the funniest concerned the continued mistakes of a typographer who was setting type about a well-known general.

The first slip was that the great general was "battle-scared." Then, because the general was a notorious drunk, the type-setter corrected that mistake to make it "bottle-scarred." And so it goes.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Edifying. But you could ask a million Americans and not one would have heard of this. I'm relieved that there wasn't a pun or clever allusion hidden there. I am sure that in an English translation, the examples would have to be invented, since the original puns would not make any sense.


I don't speak French well enough to really get the humor in the originals, but the German version was very well done. The translators had to change a lot of the jokes, I'm sure, but they did a great job, and from what I've heard the humor in other translations is inspired as well. (Translations of funny material are among the most difficult to do -- I admire those who can do them well.)

If you read the "humour" link all the way through, you get an idea of what they did with it, since many of the examples there are from the English translation.


----------



## Annalog

Susan in VA said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Goscinny
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix
> 
> I only learned just now that the books aren't very well known in the U.S. I have no idea how well they translate into English, even. But translated into German they are hilarious, and addictive. I'll have to try out an English version to see how it compares.
> 
> edited to add: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour_in_Asterix


We have 4 of the comics:
Asterix and Cleopatra (English)
Asterix als Gladiator (German)
Asterix auf Korsika (German)
Asterix och Britterna (Swedish)

They are hilarious! Thank you for reminding DH and me to look for more of them.  We first learned of Asterix and Obelix on the Disney Channel many (20?) years ago.

Anna


----------



## sigrosenblum

Annalog said:


> We have 4 of the comics:
> Asterix and Cleopatra (English)
> Asterix als Gladiator (German)
> Asterix auf Korsika (German)
> Asterix och Britterna (Swedish)
> 
> They are hilarious! Thank you for reminding DH and me to look for more of them.  We first learned of Asterix and Obelix on the Disney Channel many (20?) years ago.
> 
> Anna


Well, maybe I was wrong about asking a million Americans, etc. But then, I am out of the loop on so much!


----------



## Annalog

sigrosenblum said:


> Well, maybe I was wrong about asking a million Americans, etc. But then, I am out of the loop on so much!


Since DH is fascinated by history, comics, puns, books, and animation, he was drawn to Asterix.


----------



## Leslie

sigrosenblum said:


> Well, maybe I was wrong about asking a million Americans, etc. But then, I am out of the loop on so much!


We used to read Asterix in French class (a million years ago). We also watched some of the cartoons.

We also read Herge's Adventures of Tin Tin, which I liked more. There is a Tin Tin movie in the works (directed by Steven Spielberg, I believe).

L


----------



## sigrosenblum

Leslie said:


> We used to read Asterix in French class (a million years ago). We also watched some of the cartoons.
> 
> We also read Herge's Adventures of Tin Tin, which I liked more. There is a Tin Tin movie in the works (directed by Steven Spielberg, I believe).
> 
> L


From an article on Roman France in today's NY Times: http://travel.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/travel/17romfrance.html?hpw

I had been transported into the past, watching a performance in a semicircular Roman theater in the southern French city of Orange much as spectators had done 2,000 years ago. In front of me was one of the greatest works of Roman architecture and engineering to have survived the cruelty of the centuries: a theatrical wall. Despite its scarred and stained stones, the wall stands defiantly. It is still deserving of the description: "The finest wall in my kingdom," bestowed by Louis XIV.

The performance ended, and the crowd spilled out into the streets below, just as it did in Roman times. Augustus, embraced by the shadows coursing across the theatrical wall, seemed to move as well.

Visitors to France do not usually seek out evidence of Rome's conquest of what was then called Gaul (now essentially modern-day France and Belgium). Indeed, the French do not dwell on their colonization by ancient Roman imperialists. Instead, they celebrate the "Gallic" part: the stories of proud, strong natives who thrived in that era. (The most popular contemporary portrayals of Roman rule in France are the comic book and film adventures of Astérix and Obélix, the Gallic village heroes who use stealth and cunning against the Roman invaders.)


----------



## Susan in VA

Isn't it funny how some obscure topic comes up, or maybe you hear about it for the first time, and then suddenly it's everywhere.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Isn't it funny how some obscure topic comes up, or maybe you hear about it for the first time, and then suddenly it's everywhere.


Yes, I was flabbergasted when I saw this article--and for exactly that reason. What's next?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Today, I was quite surprised to hear Mr. Obama say--after what seemed like a slight pause--"wrecking havoc." I can't blame him. because many of us--including me--are a bit wishy-washy when it comes to this phrase.

Some say that it should be "wreaking havoc." Others say "wrecking havoc." And still others say that both are correct. Maybe you'd like to cast your own vote. Then click the link for what--to my mind--is one of the clearest and most sensible arguments in favor of---?

Play fair, now. No peeking if it's "wrecking" or "wreaking"!

http://www.writersrow.com/arachnae/commonidioms.html


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Maybe you'd like to cast your own vote.


You can wreck something. Or you can wreak havoc on something. But "wrecking havoc" is just wrong.

edited to add: What link?? I don't see one...


----------



## Jeff

My Vote: Wrecking havoc is incorrect and on par with "a tough ROAD to hoe" and "Nucular" for oft misused.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> You can wreck something. Or you can wreak havoc on something. But "wrecking havoc" is just wrong.
> 
> edited to add: What link?? I don't see one...


Sorry. I goofed. It's there now.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Sorry. I goofed. It's there now.


Ha! I like the "double negative" idea. A great way to explain it to people, I'll have to remember that.

(Almost makes you feel sorry for Nicole Ritchie, though...  )


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> My Vote: Wrecking havoc is incorrect and on par with "a tough ROAD to hoe" and "Nucular" for oft misused.


Ah--nucular! One of my all-time favorite peeves. And I get the chills when even nuclear experts say that.


----------



## Debra Purdy Kong

Forgive me if this has been raised before. I haven't read all 25 pages of posts, but I absolutely despise the way sports commentators turn the word "medal" into a verb during the Olympics. As in "So and so medalled today in the 1500 meter race ..." I've heard American and Canadian commentators use it, as well as our local newscasters. Oh, the shame . . .


----------



## Susan in VA

Debra Purdy Kong said:


> Forgive me if this has been raised before. I haven't read all 25 pages of posts, but I absolutely despise the way sports commentators turn the word "medal" into a verb during the Olympics. As in "So and so medalled today in the 1500 meter race ..." I've heard American and Canadian commentators use it, as well as our local newscasters. Oh, the shame . . .


I think it's a new one, Debra! Just think, 25 pages of posts and there are plenty of GPP we haven't complained about yet...  (There were a few _other_ verbs-that-shouldn't-be-verbs earlier though, I believe.)

(Sad, in more ways that one, that we can keep this going for 25 pages.  )


----------



## Leslie

Debra Purdy Kong said:


> Forgive me if this has been raised before. I haven't read all 25 pages of posts, but I absolutely despise the way sports commentators turn the word "medal" into a verb during the Olympics. As in "So and so medalled today in the 1500 meter race ..." I've heard American and Canadian commentators use it, as well as our local newscasters. Oh, the shame . . .


Good one, Debra! Welcome to the GPP club...

Has anyone commented on "baited breath"? Ugh.

(it's bated, from abated).

L


----------



## Susan in VA

"Baited breath" is what my cats have after their canned-seafood-mix breakfast.


----------



## Jeff

I saw an article this morning in the _Miami Herald_ where the reporter said that Penelope Cruz was *illing*. Does the word actually exist?

Penelope Cruz is illing, but not from swine flu or bad crepes.


----------



## SongbirdVB

Illing?  Really?  Sheesh.

Here's one that has been getting on my last nerve recently: peaking.  As in "she was peaking around the corner."  So I can only assume she is coming to the peak of her existence as she rounds the corner?  Or am I wrong and we have to rename the game "Peak-A-Boo?"


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> I saw an article this morning in the _Miami Herald_ where the reporter said that Penelope Cruz was *illing*. Does the word actually exist?
> 
> Penelope Cruz is illing, but not from swine flu or bad crepes.


That's a new one.... let's hope it remains limited to the Miami Herald. (How do some people get to be journalists?!?)


----------



## Leslie

illing? Oh my God.

ailing. I would have changed it to ailing if I was the copy editor.

L


----------



## Susan in VA

I was reminded just now at school drop-off how much I hate this one....

"I'm late because I work night shift and I had to wait on my boss for nearly an hour this morning!"

She works in IT.....   NOT as a maid.


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> illing? Oh my God.


I first saw the tag line on Google News at about 5:00 AM and went to the _Miami Herald_ site expecting that it had been corrected. I just checked - it's still there.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

I love this thread!

Sometimes I think there is a fine line between a grammatical error and the natural evolution of language.  Don't you think there are a lot of words that we use now much differently than the way they were originally used?  Would people from a hundred years ago find pet peeves in the way we speak now?

Betsy


----------



## Leslie

Interesting comment, Betsy.

Reading lots of historicals and being buddies with historical authors, we spend lots of time talking about anachronisms. "Making love" as an expression for sexual intimacy and intercourse wasn't used until the 1950s. So what to call it? That's a toughie. I've seen lots of authors cave in and use "making love" in the narrative but the characters don't say it. In a book I finished recently, one character is on trial and the judge asked, "What was the nature of your congress?" which I found an interesting turn of phrase -- and it hasn't gotten to the point of being overused.

I mentioned this to Gertie in Ariana's Pride. She had one character say, "Chalk it up" and that sounded anachronistic to me. I didn't have time to look it up. Gertie, if you are reading this, did you find anything about that expression?

L


----------



## Susan in VA

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Sometimes I think there is a fine line between a grammatical error and the natural evolution of language. Don't you think there are a lot of words that we use now much differently than the way they were originally used? Would people from a hundred years ago find pet peeves in the way we speak now?


It's a very fine line indeed, and I don't envy the people who update dictionaries and have to decide at precisely what point something changes from "substandard usage" to "'accepted usage". (Interestingly, in language some form of entropy seems to dictate that it never goes in the other direction.)

Unfortunately, IMO, there are far too many people who subscribe to the idea that just because _many_ people say something one way it must be correct. Some of us spend an inordinate amount of time kicking and screaming to stem that tide.

I'm sure that people from a hundred years ago would find much of what we say unintelligible, and I don't just mean technical terminology. Heck, some of us probably have _parents_ who don't understand some of what our _kids_ say.


----------



## Susan in VA

regarding "chalk it up"  --  I just had to explain that expression to DD last week!  

I believe it dates from when people kept accounts (in stores or bars) on chalkboards, and just made marks to add an item to someone's tally.

So it can't be all that new...


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> regarding "chalk it up" -- I just had to explain that expression to DD last week!
> 
> I believe it dates from when people kept accounts (in stores or bars) on chalkboards, and just made marks to add an item to someone's tally.
> 
> So it can't be all that new...


1400s though? I think of it more from the 1800s.

L


----------



## geoffthomas

And how about the media use of street talk that brings it into common usage.
Example:  bling.

It was added to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary in 2002 and to the Merriam Webster dictionary in 2006. (from Wikipedia).

Now come on there is and never was a need for this word and its use.

Agree/disagree?
Other examples?


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> 1400s though? I think of it more from the 1800s.


...we seem to have no records of when slate and chalk replaced wax tablets, but that seems to be around the dawn of scholarship and scholastic method, circa 1200 AD.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> .we seem to have no records of when slate and chalk replaced wax tablets, but that seems to be around the dawn of scholarship and scholastic method, circa 1200 AD.


That's interesting -- after I saw Leslie's post I had been searching from the other direction, looking for drawings of old pubs and such, to see whether they had chalkboards up. I recall seeing a recreated village from the 1820s or 1830s, and it certainly had those, and it didn't seem like a "newfangled" thing the way it fit into the overall atmosphere. So I wondered how much further back I could find pictures or other records.... you took a much more direct approach! 

Wait, I have an art history book here, let me see whether that offers more....

edited: OK, now I've learned that slate boards were commercially in use in America at least since the mid-1700's, and in schools since around 1800. In England they were used in commercial establishments at least since 1600 or so. We're getting closer.... I love puzzles like this!


----------



## Leslie

geoffthomas said:


> And how about the media use of street talk that brings it into common usage.
> Example: bling.
> 
> It was added to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary in 2002 and to the Merriam Webster dictionary in 2006. (from Wikipedia).
> 
> Now come on there is and never was a need for this word and its use.
> 
> Agree/disagree?
> Other examples?


I hate the word "bling" and I never ever use it. I don't even like typing it!

L


----------



## Susan in VA

geoffthomas said:


> And how about the media use of street talk that brings it into common usage.
> Example: bling.
> 
> It was added to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary in 2002 and to the Merriam Webster dictionary in 2006. (from Wikipedia).
> 
> Now come on there is and never was a need for this word and its use.
> 
> Agree/disagree?
> Other examples?


I have never used that word in speech or writing, and can't think why I ever would.

And I haven't looked this one up specifically, but just because a word is "in the dictionary" doesn't mean it's accepted usage... That's why dictionaries include terms like "archaic" and "substandard" and "chiefly illit."


----------



## Chad Winters

*bling bling bling bling*


----------



## Susan in VA

I just chatted with my father on the phone.  I mentioned this thread, and since he's also a former translator, English teacher, and interpreter, it's one that he would dive into with a passion if he were just a bit more computer-savvy.

But he did contribute what is currently his biggest Pet Peeve, one that I admit to being guilty of (but I didn't admit it to him):

the expression "out there", which he considers to be completely superfluous in most cases   --  

as in,  "There are a lot of lazy people out there"   or  "There are not many good reference books on chalk out there".

I guess it's not really grammatically wrong, but I have to agree that it's superfluous and thus potentially irritating if overused.   Wonder how many times I've been guilty of that one...


----------



## Susan in VA

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> *bling bling bling bling*


I suppose that it could be useful as a sound effect for payoff time at nickel slot machines.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Leslie said:


> Good one, Debra! Welcome to the GPP club...
> 
> Has anyone commented on "baited breath"? Ugh.
> 
> (it's bated, from abated).
> 
> L


I think that's new--and it certainly deserves to be included. There are many stumbles like that these days.The newer generation seems to read less and get more of their language skills (?) by ear. Of course most immigrants go through the same process. Come to think of it, that's how all of us learn--imitatively.

My father had lots of stories about the lower east side of New York. And one that I recall illustrates this nicely.

One of the more famous landmarks in this vibrant Jewish ghetto was Grand Street. So the immigrant often heard the phrase "Corner Grand." That meant, of course, "on the corner of Grand Street." The newly arrived "greenhorn" also noticed that when shopkeepers bid goodbye to a customer they would say "Call again."

But the new arrivals could not readily distinguish between the two phrases. They picked up what sounded right--but was very far from the mark, indeed.

And so, when they said goodby to guests at home who had stopped by for a glassle-tea or a friendly schmooze, they stood at the door, shaking hands and graciously asked the friend to return.

Did they say, "Come again"? No. But, with pride in the new language they were beginning to master, and with faith that this new land would bless their dreams, they boomed, "Corner Grand!"


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> My father had lots of stories


Ha! Great story. I experience some of those in my own family... my German mother and my English father have between them created some that are completely unintelligible to non-family.

My dad's family uses expressions like "knucklehead" and "brushhead"; quaint terms by today's standards (see also the thread on insulting other drivers...) but ones which were entirely new to my mother who had learned English only at school up to that point. Somehow these expressions got misfiled in her mind, and years later she burst out in frustration at someone "What a knucklebrush!" My dad and I couldn't stop laughing.

She also thinks that when she watches courtroom dramas on TV they should continue the "all rise!" with the logical and necessary addition "all shine!". And when she first saw the word "lapdog", she thought it was a typo, because she had always thought the word was "yapdog"... which does describe some of the smaller breeds more accurately....


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Ha! Great story. I experience some of those in my own family... my German mother and my English father have between them created some that are completely unintelligible to non-family.
> 
> My dad's family uses expressions like "knucklehead" and "brushhead"; quaint terms by today's standards (see also the thread on insulting other drivers...) but ones which were entirely new to my mother who had learned English only at school up to that point. Somehow these expressions got misfiled in her mind, and years later she burst out in frustration at someone "What a knucklebrush!" My dad and I couldn't stop laughing.
> 
> She also thinks that when she watches courtroom dramas on TV they should continue the "all rise!" with the logical and necessary addition "all shine!". And when she first saw the word "lapdog", she thought it was a typo, because she had always thought the word was "yapdog"... which does describe some of the smaller breeds more accurately....


All of which suggests that mangling the language can be endearing, too. Please remind me of that, someone, when I grind my teeth too loudly!


----------



## Meemo

sigrosenblum said:


> Today, I was quite surprised to hear Mr. Obama say--after what seemed like a slight pause--"wrecking havoc." I can't blame him. because many of us--including me--are a bit wishy-washy when it comes to this phrase.
> 
> Some say that it should be "wreaking havoc." Others say "wrecking havoc." And still others say that both are correct. Maybe you'd like to cast your own vote. Then click the link for what--to my mind--is one of the clearest and most sensible arguments in favor of---?
> 
> Play fair, now. No peeking if it's "wrecking" or "wreaking"!
> 
> http://www.writersrow.com/arachnae/commonidioms.html


Sometimes in the process of wreaking havoc you might wreck something. But it isn't havoc. IMHO, of course.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Please remind me of that, someone, when I grind my teeth too loudly!


 Siggy, didya hafta remind me that I have a dentist's appointment in the morning....


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Siggy, didya hafta remind me that I have a dentist's appointment in the morning....




Well, I'm pulling for you, Susan.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Well, I'm pulling for you, Susan.


  After that, the dentist won't hurt at all....


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> After that, the dentist won't hurt at all....


I was only trying to brace you for the ordeal.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> I was only trying to brace you for the ordeal.


Someone's in fine form tonight...


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Someone's in fine form tonight...


Now you're needling me.


----------



## Leslie

Seen yesterday at McDonald's....I wanted to take a picture but couldn't get it at the right angle with the cellphone.

McDONALD'S SAUCE POLICY

4 piece chicken nuggets = 1 sauce
6 piece chicken nuggets = 1 sauce
10 piece chicken nuggets = 2 sauces
3 piece chicken select = 1 sauces
6 piece chicken select = 2 sauces



I suppose I shouldn't complain too much....at least they weren't "sauce's"

L


----------



## Angela

Leslie said:


> I hate the word "bling" and I never ever use it. I don't even like typing it!
> 
> L


Same here!

I feel the same way about the word "jack." My niece uses it constantly... She didn't borrow her friend's shirt, she "jacked" it. She is not going to to borrow her boyfriend's truck, she is going to "jack" it. She didn't download pictures of the prom from her high school journalism club to her laptop, she "jacked" them.... aaaarrrrrgggg!!


----------



## Ann in Arlington

I don't mind 'bling' so much.  But I don't like 'jack'.  Has a feeling of something nefarious to it.  Like, if someone 'jacked' my car, I'd be calling the police. . . . .

But slang words come and go, so these too shall pass. . . .groovy, huh?


----------



## Jeff

Both _jack_ and _bling_ bum me out. Trippy, isn't it?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Leslie said:


> Seen yesterday at McDonald's....I wanted to take a picture but couldn't get it at the right angle with the cellphone.
> 
> McDONALD'S SAUCE POLICY
> 
> 4 piece chicken nuggets = 1 sauce
> 6 piece chicken nuggets = 1 sauce
> 10 piece chicken nuggets = 2 sauces
> 3 piece chicken select = 1 sauces
> 6 piece chicken select = 2 sauces
> 
> I suppose I shouldn't complain too much....at least they weren't "sauce's"
> 
> L


May I correct it? Should be Policy's


----------



## Susan in VA

Not to mention that either they need hyphens after the numbers (4-piece chicken nuggets) or they need another s (4 pieces chicken nuggets).

Did anybody see the news item about the silly flap regarding their latest Happy Meal toys?  The toys in question are CD's, and supposedly the McD version of one of the songs contains child-inappropriate lyrics.  The original song is harmless.  The McD version is enunciated slightly differently, so that some people are hearing a different word.  If you actually listen to the McD version, you'd have to WANT to hear something wrong with it; it sounds a little different but that's all....  but they've stopped giving out that particular CD and of course there are already numerous kids and parents clamoring for that one since it was the only one they were still missing (out of the eight in the set)....


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> Not to mention that either they need hyphens after the numbers (4-piece chicken nuggets) or they need another s (4 pieces chicken nuggets).


That's way too subtle. Like I said, I am glad there weren't apostrophes all over the place.

L


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> I am glad there weren't apostrophes all over the place.


Only because, being McDonald's, they'd charge extra for those.


----------



## Guest

sigrosenblum said:


> May I correct it? Should be Policy's


Sorry, but no. The plural of policy is policies, and it still wouldn't be right as the sign was talking about one specific policy, the one regarding how many sauce containers customers are entitled to with each size of McNuggets. Policy's isn't plural, it's possesive.

Sorry, English/Journalism major and professional writer here.


----------



## Guest

Leslie said:


> Interesting comment, Betsy.
> 
> Reading lots of historicals and being buddies with historical authors, we spend lots of time talking about anachronisms. "Making love" as an expression for sexual intimacy and intercourse wasn't used until the 1950s. So what to call it? That's a toughie. I've seen lots of authors cave in and use "making love" in the narrative but the characters don't say it. In a book I finished recently, one character is on trial and the judge asked, "What was the nature of your congress?" which I found an interesting turn of phrase -- and it hasn't gotten to the point of being overused.
> 
> I mentioned this to Gertie in Ariana's Pride. She had one character say, "Chalk it up" and that sounded anachronistic to me. I didn't have time to look it up. Gertie, if you are reading this, did you find anything about that expression?
> 
> L


Anyone remember The Newlywed Game? They used to call it "making whoopie" LOL!


----------



## sigrosenblum

NYCKindleFan said:


> Sorry, but no. The plural of policy is policies, and it still wouldn't be right as the sign was talking about one specific policy, the one regarding how many sauce containers customers are entitled to with each size of McNuggets. Policy's isn't plural, it's possesive.
> 
> Sorry, English/Journalism major and professional writer here.


Sorry that you didn't get this inside joke. We aren't always literal here. Sometimes we are big.


----------



## Guest

sigrosenblum said:


> I think that's new--and it certainly deserves to be included. There are many stumbles like that these days.The newer generation seems to read less and get more of their language skills (?) by ear. Of course most immigrants go through the same process. Come to think of it, that's how all of us learn--imitatively.
> 
> My father had lots of stories about the lower east side of New York. And one that I recall illustrates this nicely.
> 
> One of the more famous landmarks in this vibrant Jewish ghetto was Grand Street. So the immigrant often heard the phrase "Corner Grand." That meant, of course, "on the corner of Grand Street." The newly arrived "greenhorn" also noticed that when shopkeepers bid goodbye to a customer they would say "Call again."


My dad grew up in rural Nova Scotia, Canada and had a similar language thing. When the people in his village talked about each other they'd refer to each other with two names, their given name and their father's name. For example, my dad was JimmyMichael. There were so many with the same last name in the area (a very tight knit Scottish settlement) that the only way they could keep everyone straight was to refer to them in their shorthand for "Jimmy, Michael's son". Kinda of cool. Even now when I go to visit I'm SusanJimmy...LOL They had a lot of other shorthand too, some of it in Gaelic.


----------



## Guest

sigrosenblum said:


> Sorry that you didn't get this inside joke. We aren't always literal here. Sometimes we are big.


I guess I'm just not one of the popular in-crowd around here. Sorry for any offense.


----------



## Susan in VA

NYCKindleFan said:


> Sorry, but no. The plural of policy is policies, and it still wouldn't be right as the sign was talking about one specific policy, the one regarding how many sauce containers customers are entitled to with each size of McNuggets. Policy's isn't plural, it's possesive.
> 
> Sorry, English/Journalism major and professional writer here.


If you go back a few posts and read from the beginning of the McDonald's posts, you'll see that Sig was kidding....

(either that, or he had to have been hitting the sauce <in multiple containers, of course> heavily to write that!)


----------



## sigrosenblum

NYCKindleFan said:


> My dad grew up in rural Nova Scotia, Canada and had a similar language thing. When the people in his village talked about each other they'd refer to each other with two names, their given name and their father's name. For example, my dad was JimmyMichael. There were so many with the same last name in the area (a very tight knit Scottish settlement) that the only way they could keep everyone straight was to refer to them in their shorthand for "Jimmy, Michael's son". Kinda of cool. Even now when I go to visit I'm SusanJimmy...LOL They had a lot of other shorthand too, some of it in Gaelic.


Never noticed that on my one visit to NS. Interesting. And lovely people.


----------



## Guest

sigrosenblum said:


> Never noticed that on my one visit to NS. Interesting. And lovely people.


It depends on where you visited. My dad's from a tiny village called Christmas Island in Cape Breton. Wonderful place-the street signs are in English and Gaelic! Cape Breton is like no other place on earth.


----------



## CegAbq

sigrosenblum said:


> get more of their language skills (?) by ear.


This is a very interesting thought - I am NOT an auditory learner. Whenever I study a language, I have to see how things are spelled. I am fine with making any adjustments and transitions from what it "looks" like in spelling to how it is actually pronounced - but I absolutely cannot learn from only listening to a language. I have to see it in print. (Very tough with languages that are primarily **spoken** languages!)


----------



## Susan in VA

That sounds perfectly normal to me, because I'm the same way.  


And then once I've seen it in print, I tend to remember it.  I remember song lyrics to all the ones I've seen as sheet music, but almost none of the ones I've only heard.


----------



## sigrosenblum

NYCKindleFan said:


> It depends on where you visited. My dad's from a tiny village called Christmas Island in Cape Breton. Wonderful place-the street signs are in English and Gaelic! Cape Breton is like no other place on earth.


Sounds charming. Sorry I missed that. But maybe my fictional detective will visit. He gets around much more than I do.


----------



## sigrosenblum

NYCKindleFan said:


> I guess I'm just not one of the popular in-crowd around here. Sorry for any offense.


Oh, no offense, at all, KF.


----------



## Leslie

NYCKindleFan said:


> Anyone remember The Newlywed Game? They used to call it "making whoopie" LOL!


Hahahah, yes. I hadn't thought of that for years. Thanks for the memory, Sue.

L


----------



## Ethan

Jeff said:


> Both _jack_ and _bling_ bum me out. Trippy, isn't it?


And didn't you just love "you go, girl"! I always wanted to run when I heard that whacked out phrase.


----------



## Susan in VA

Ethan said:


> And didn't you just love "you go, girl"! I always wanted to run when I heard that whacked out phrase.


Past tense? I still hear that a lot NOW. Maybe I need to hang out with trendier people. 

(I never got the appeal of "whacked out" either, though.  )


----------



## geoffthomas

NYCKindleFan said:


> It depends on where you visited. My dad's from a tiny village called Christmas Island in Cape Breton. Wonderful place-the street signs are in English and Gaelic! Cape Breton is like no other place on earth.


Once again I love pointing out how much neat "little stuff" we learn around here.
Thank you for the info.
I just love learning new factoids.
Just sayin......


----------



## Annalog

Leslie said:


> Interesting comment, Betsy.
> 
> Reading lots of historicals and being buddies with historical authors, we spend lots of time talking about anachronisms. "Making love" as an expression for sexual intimacy and intercourse wasn't used until the 1950s. So what to call it? That's a toughie. I've seen lots of authors cave in and use "making love" in the narrative but the characters don't say it. In a book I finished recently, one character is on trial and the judge asked, "What was the nature of your congress?" which I found an interesting turn of phrase -- and it hasn't gotten to the point of being overused.
> 
> I mentioned this to Gertie in Ariana's Pride. She had one character say, "Chalk it up" and that sounded anachronistic to me. I didn't have time to look it up. Gertie, if you are reading this, did you find anything about that expression?
> 
> L


I was reminded of this thread last night while I was reading the 1885 translation by John Ormsby of _Don Quixote_. The following paragraph from the version from Feedbooks, beginning in location 15162 (Part 2 Chapter 63), contains the phrase "made secret love to": 


> The gay ladies made secret love to him, and he on his part secretly repelled them, but finding himself hard pressed by their blandishments he lifted up his voice and exclaimed, "Fugite, partes adversae! Leave me in peace, unwelcome overtures; avaunt, with your desires, ladies, for she who is queen of mine, the peerless Dulcinea del Toboso, suffers none but hers to lead me captive and subdue me;" and so saying he sat down on the floor in the middle of the room, tired out and broken down by all this exertion in the dance.


Because of this thread, I checked the default dictionary on the Kindle and found in the <PHRASES> section for the entry for love:

*make love*
*1* have sexual intercourse.
*2 (make love to)* DATED pay amorous attention to (someone}


Since the scene with Don Quixote took place at a dance with several people around, the ladies were flirting with Don Quixote in public (definition 2 not definition 1). I don't know when the use of "make love to" as a reference to "amorous attention" began. (EDIT: However it must have been common in 1885.  ) One small preposition to distinguish between "making love" and "making love to." 
Anna
P.S. I have made extensive use of the dictionary and the Web browser while reading Don Quixote on the Kindle. I have not yet finished and have over 100 Notes and Marks just for dictionary lookups, translations, etc.


----------



## sigrosenblum

From a current Business Week article:

"GM, with its suppliers, represents a full 1% of the economy. It is the largest private-sector purchaser of information technology, so Silicon Valley will feel it; and Madison Avenue will feel the collapse of its advertising spend."

Your comments on "advertising spend"?


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> Your comments on "advertising spend"?


"Advertising Buy" is an accepted business term but spend is a new one to me.


----------



## Annalog

sigrosenblum said:


> From a current Business Week article:
> 
> GM, with its suppliers, represents a full 1% of the economy. It is the largest private-sector purchaser of information technology, so Silicon Valley will feel it; and Madison Avenue will feel the collapse of its advertising spend.
> 
> Your comments on "advertising spend"?


I think the Business Week editors should have removed the unnecessary "and" after the semicolon and added "ing" at the end of the sentence. That might have made it clearer that "its" refers to GM. Too many pronouns for me.


----------



## Carolyn Kephart

sigrosenblum said:


> From a current Business Week article:
> 
> GM, with its suppliers, represents a full 1% of the economy. It is the largest private-sector purchaser of information technology, so Silicon Valley will feel it; and Madison Avenue will feel the collapse of its advertising spend.
> 
> Your comments on "advertising spend"?


I just got here, Sig, so be gentle. 

"Advertising spend" sounds hip, trendy, and insider. For a BW reader it probably works; to me it sounds fuzzy at best, illiterate at worst.

The other day I saw 'regiment' used instead of 'regimen.' Looked odd.

CK


----------



## Leslie

Annalog said:


> I think the Business Week editors should have removed the unnecessary "and" after the semicolon and added "ing" at the end of the sentence. That might have made it clearer that "its" refers to GM. Too many pronouns for me.


I agree.

And Anna...thanks for the comments on making love. Interesting!

L


----------



## sigrosenblum

Carolyn Kephart said:


> I just got here, Sig, so be gentle.
> 
> "Advertising spend" sounds hip, trendy, and insider. For a BW reader it probably works; to me it sounds fuzzy at best, illiterate at worst.
> 
> The other day I saw 'regiment' used instead of 'regimen.' Looked odd.
> 
> CK


Welcome. And I agree. Your "regiment" example recalls Kramer insisting to Jerry that it was "statue" instead of "statute." We should be up in arms against "regiment."

And "gentle"? Do I have a reputation for brutality? I think you will find that gentleness in all its many variations is a KB hallmark. Thanks for your response.


----------



## Carolyn Kephart

sigrosenblum said:


> Welcome. And I agree. Your "regiment" example recalls Kramer insisting to Jerry that it was "statue" instead of "statute." We should be up in arms against "regiment."
> 
> And "gentle"? Do I have a reputation for brutality? I think you will find that gentleness in all its many variations is a KB hallmark. Thanks for your response.


Thanks! Yes, perhaps the motto hereabouts should be 'Stay Big,' the way the SEALs tell each other 'Stay Hard.'

Your comment about 'Seinfeld' reminds me of a comment on 'Friends,' about the correctitude of 'supposably.'

CK


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Do I have a reputation for brutality?


As Acting Chief of the Grammar Police, you could pounce on the unsuspecting offenders at any moment.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Carolyn Kephart said:


> Thanks! Yes, perhaps the motto hereabouts should be 'Stay Big,' the way the SEALs tell each other 'Stay Hard.'
> 
> Your comment about 'Seinfeld' reminds me of a comment on 'Friends,' about the correctitude of 'supposably.'
> 
> CK


All true. But I'd edit that to "big-hearted." Though mottos would be superfluous here. It's entirely natural, spontaneous, ingrained, etc.
Enjoy yourself!


----------



## Carolyn Kephart

sigrosenblum said:


> All true. But I'd edit that to "big-hearted." Though mottos would be superfluous here. It's entirely natural, spontaneous, ingrained, etc.
> Enjoy yourself!


I was referring to another of your posts a bit further down, but it's all good, as Jane Austen would say. 

And yes, I _am_ enjoying myself here. Fascinating thread.

CK


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> As Acting Chief of the Grammar Police, you could pounce on the unsuspecting offenders at any moment.


Yes, it's terrible to be so picky about language, isn't it? That's why all the other Acting Chiefs return compulsivley to this thread. And why some avoid it like the plague.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Just heard a member of Congress condemn "verbage." Methinks he relates it to "garbage," which it often is. Yet I've heard this a lot. And doesn't he mean "verbiage"?


----------



## Leslie

sigrosenblum said:


> Yes, it's terrible to be so picky about language, isn't it? That's why all the other Acting Chiefs return compulsivley to this thread. And why some avoid it like the plague.


Over on the recommended books thread, Michelle recommended a book called Lord of Scoundrels. Since I like romance, I went to check it out on Amazon. Here's the description:
*
Tough minded Jessica Trent's sole intention is to free her nitwit brother from the destructive influence of Sebastian ballister, the notorious Marquess of Diain. She never expects to desire the arrogant, amoral cad. And When Daines reciprical passion places them in a scandously compromising, and public, position, Jessica is left with no choice but to seek satisfaction...

Dawn the minx for tempting him, kissing him...and then for forcing him to salvage reputation! Lord Dain can't wait to put the infuriating bluestocking in her place -- and in some amorous position. And if this means marriage, so be it -- though sebastian is less than certain he can continue to remian aloof...and stell his heart to the sensuous, head strong lady's considerable charms.*

The description is 122 words and I counted 13 errors! Mind you, this is not an indie/self-published book...it's from Harper Collins. It really makes me wonder what is inside the book.

Here are the errors I found. Tell me if I missed any:

Ballister is a surname and should be capitalized.
Dain/Diain/Daines - spelled three different ways
Daines reciprical passion - should be Daine's (or Dain's, however his name is spelled)
reciprical - reciprocal
scandously - scandalously
to seek satisfaction... - I don't think an ellipsis is needed here. A period would be fine.
Dawn the minx - Huh? Should Dawn be Damn?
him to salvage reputation! - him to salvage *his* reputation
sebastian - again, should be capitalized
remian - remain
stell - steel

Sigh....

Edit: make that 14 errors. When doesn't need to be capitalized (3rd sentence).

L


----------



## Leslie

And another. Isn't headstrong one word?

L


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> And another. Isn't headstrong one word?


Yes, headstrong is one word. What's a Marquess?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Leslie said:


> Over on the recommended books thread, Michelle recommended a book called Lord of Scoundrels. Since I like romance, I went to check it out on Amazon. Here's the description:
> *
> Tough minded Jessica Trent's sole intention is to free her nitwit brother from the destructive influence of Sebastian ballister, the notorious Marquess of Diain. She never expects to desire the arrogant, amoral cad. And When Daines reciprical passion places them in a scandously compromising, and public, position, Jessica is left with no choice but to seek satisfaction...
> 
> Dawn the minx for tempting him, kissing him...and then for forcing him to salvage reputation! Lord Dain can't wait to put the infuriating bluestocking in her place -- and in some amorous position. And if this means marriage, so be it -- though sebastian is less than certain he can continue to remian aloof...and stell his heart to the sensuous, head strong lady's considerable charms.*
> 
> The description is 122 words and I counted 13 errors! Mind you, this is not an indie/self-published book...it's from Harper Collins. It really makes me wonder what is inside the book.
> 
> Here are the errors I found. Tell me if I missed any:
> 
> Ballister is a surname and should be capitalized.
> Dain/Diain/Daines - spelled three different ways
> Daines reciprical passion - should be Daine's (or Dain's, however his name is spelled)
> reciprical - reciprocal
> scandously - scandalously
> to seek satisfaction... - I don't think an ellipsis is needed here. A period would be fine.
> Dawn the minx - Huh? Should Dawn be Damn?
> him to salvage reputation! - him to salvage *his* reputation
> sebastian - again, should be capitalized
> remian - remain
> stell - steel
> 
> Sigh....
> 
> Edit: make that 14 errors. When doesn't need to be capitalized (3rd sentence).
> 
> L


Oh, you got many more than I did. I hereby tender my resignation as Acting Chief. Notice that I do it tenderly.

Well, there you have it in a very nutty nutshell. We have reversed roles, during this transition to new forms of reading and writing. Now, the traditional publishers don't know how to edit. And the self-publishers do. It's sad. But the times they are a-changin'!


----------



## Leslie

Jeff said:


> Yes, headstrong is one word. What's a Marquess?


I actually looked it up because I thought it should be Marquis but Marquess is also correct. It is a noble rank used in various European monarchies. A Marquess is below a Duke and above a Margrave.

L


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> Yes, headstrong is one word. What's a Marquess?


A marquess or marquis is a nobleman of hereditary rank in various European monarchies and some of their colonies. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess


----------



## Leslie

I tried to copy this box here, but I can't, so you'll need to link over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis

Look at the "Ranks of Nobility" on the right hand side. Am I the only one who finds the entry above Emperor and Empress amusing? 

L


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> I actually looked it up because I thought it should be Marquis but Marquess is also correct. It is a noble rank used in various European monarchies. A Marquess is below a Duke and above a Margrave.


Thanks. I was so sure that the title was Marquis. Then I looked it up after I posted. 

Just goes to show that trusting one's linguistic instincts is dangerous.


----------



## Carolyn Kephart

Leslie said:


> Over on the recommended books thread, Michelle recommended a book called Lord of Scoundrels. Since I like romance, I went to check it out on Amazon. Here's the description:
> *
> *


*

I couldn't believe all the errors.

Then again, I could, which is scary. Now that we have the Internet, this sort of thing shouldn't be happening.

Concerned,

CK*


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> Am I the only one who finds the entry above Emperor and Empress amusing?


Ugh!


----------



## sigrosenblum

Carolyn Kephart said:


> I couldn't believe all the errors.
> 
> Then again, I could, which is scary. Now that we have the Internet, this sort of thing shouldn't be happening.
> 
> Concerned,
> 
> CK


I wonder how the publisher would explain it? Anyone know anyone inside HC?


----------



## geoffthomas

You folks don't know how much I appreciate reading this thread.
I don't participate much because I can't contribute very much and you are way beyond my skills.
But my Sweet Wife and some of my coworkers think I am a crank because such items as Leslie just submitted ...... Drive.....Me.....Up.....A....Wall.

The people who put that out there are paid to write.

I can understand a Novelist (our neat group of people here included) not getting their spelling or grammar correct....they are trying to get ideas and plots and dialogue down on paper.  But editors and copywriters get paid to write - not create stories - write.  I work with technical writers all the time and they are not paid to be creative - the technical people come up with the content.  The tech writers are paid to make that content sound good.  To write it in one tense, to format it pretty, etc.
And the people that I work with are great professionals, they do a great job.

So I expect a lot out of newswriters who don't make the news, they are paid to write it concise or pad it as the need arises and to make it pretty.  And They can't do it.

Sorry - I will stop this rant before I hijack the thread.


----------



## Carolyn Kephart

sigrosenblum said:


> I wonder how the publisher would explain it? Anyone know anyone inside HC?


Staff cuts. Editors are a dying breed nowadays, close to extinction.

Publishers who tolerate such inexcusable sloppiness as was quoted here should consider their own mortality.

CK


----------



## sigrosenblum

geoffthomas said:


> You folks don't know how much I appreciate reading this thread.
> I don't participate much because I can't contribute very much and you are way beyond my skills.
> But my Sweet Wife and some of my coworkers think I am a crank because such items as Leslie just submitted ...... Drive.....Me.....Up.....A....Wall.
> 
> The people who put that out there are paid to write.
> 
> I can understand a Novelist (our neat group of people here included) not getting their spelling or grammar correct....they are trying to get ideas and plots and dialogue down on paper. But editors and copywriters get paid to write - not create stories - write. I work with technical writers all the time and they are not paid to be creative - the technical people come up with the content. The tech writers are paid to make that content sound good. To write it in one tense, to format it pretty, etc.
> And the people that I work with are great professionals, they do a great job.
> 
> So I expect a lot out of newswriters who don't make the news, they are paid to write it concise or pad it as the need arises and to make it pretty. And They can't do it.
> 
> Sorry - I will stop this rant before I hijack the thread.


You are right to rant. Professionalism is precious. Look around your wall. There are lots of us climbing with you!


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Yes, it's terrible to be so picky about language, isn't it? That's why all the other Acting Chiefs return compulsivley to this thread. And why some avoid it like the plague.


Yes... even though some people roll their eyes about the mere existence of this thread, it has somehow made it to 29 pages...


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Yes... even though some people roll their eyes about the mere existence of this thread, it has somehow made it to 29 pages...


And it will go on, I have no doubt. Language is perpetually fascinating--and infuriating.


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> Here are the errors I found. Tell me if I missed any:


This is appalling. Didn't a single person proofread that before it got posted??


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> I actually looked it up because I thought it should be Marquis but Marquess is also correct. It is a noble rank used in various European monarchies. A Marquess is below a Duke and above a Margrave.
> 
> L


I looked it up too because I thought the same thing -- I figured that Marquess was a variant of Marquise, i.e. the wife of a Marquis. Learned something new.


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis
> 
> Look at the "Ranks of Nobility" on the right hand side. Am I the only one who finds the entry above Emperor and Empress amusing?


Oh my! Looks like the Powers That Be over at Wikipedia haven't seen that little addition yet....


----------



## Susan in VA

geoffthomas said:


> Sorry - I will stop this rant before I hijack the thread.


But Geoff, you're not hijacking -- that's what this thread is all about!!


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> This is appalling. Didn't a single person proofread that before it got posted??


Obviously, no.

L


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> Oh my! Looks like the Powers That Be over at Wikipedia haven't seen that little addition yet....


Yes, it gave me a chuckle!

L


----------



## sigrosenblum

In the New York Times today, I noticed the phrase, "at the exclusion of." I've always seen and used "to the exclusion of."

Sample usage: His dog liked beer, to the exclusion of everything else. 

Which form is right?


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> In the New York Times today, I noticed the phrase, "at the exclusion of." I've always seen and used "to the exclusion of."
> 
> Sample usage: His dog liked beer, to the exclusion of everything else.
> 
> Which form is right?


I would think that "to the exclusion of" is correct, Sig. I can't seem to defend my opinion beyond saying that it *sounds* correct, however.


----------



## Susan in VA

^^  what Jeff said.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Other sample usage:  At the exclusion of her best friend, Jane decided not to attend the party either.

So. .  . . .maybe depends on the sentence?


----------



## Jeff

Ann in Arlington said:


> Other sample usage: At the exclusion of her best friend, Jane decided not to attend the party either.
> 
> So. . . . .maybe depends on the sentence?


You're making me think too hard. How's this?

"To the exclusion of..." means exclusive. 
"At the exclusion of..." means excluded.


----------



## Susan in VA

Oh!  Good point, Ann.    All depends how it's being used.   I think Sig meant the other kind, but we didn't actually see the original NY Times sentence...


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> "To the exclusion of..." means exclusive.
> "At the exclusion of..." means excluded.


Now THAT made me think too hard! 

And it reminds me of another pet peeve... Those ads that refer to something as "this elegant and exclusive <fashion item>"... who or what is being excluded from what or where??


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> Other sample usage: At the exclusion of her best friend, Jane decided not to attend the party either.
> 
> So. . . . .maybe depends on the sentence?


Jeff is right. You are making us think too much! But to clarify: The Times used it in the sense that I illustrated--not your sense--which seems to be an entirely different sense. Do I make any sense here? Or do you sense that I am confused?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Now THAT made me think too hard!
> 
> And it reminds me of another pet peeve... Those ads that refer to something as "this elegant and exclusive <fashion item>"... who or what is being excluded from what or where??


Funny, but that "exclusive" doesn't bother me a bit. I don't know what the dictionary says, but it seems to mean, commonsensically, "limited to a small group of highly discriminating people." The rest of us are--it follows--excluded.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Clearly, the writer did not have Mrs. Paulhamus to teach usage, in which case the sentence would have been something like, "Murgatroyd loved cream filled alligator tales to the exclusion of all other delicacies."

Seriously. . . .in 8th grade I had to learn to diagram sentences like that. . . ...


----------



## Susan in VA

Sig, that reminds me of what DD's dad always quotes with gleeful sarcasm when I finally catch on to something after being dense for a while...

"Your finely tuned Betazoid senses told you that??"


----------



## Jeff

My head now aches, exclusive of all other pains.

EDIT: Crud. Can't even type now.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Funny, but that "exclusive" doesn't bother me a bit. I don't know what the dictionary says, but it seems to mean, commonsensically, "limited to a small group of highly discriminating people." The rest of us are--it follows--excluded.


Well yeah, but when the item in question is some two-buck piece of fashion fluffery it just seems ridiculous.


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> Clearly, the writer did not have Mrs. Paulhamus to teach usage, in which case the sentence would have been something like, "Murgatroyd loved cream filled alligator *tales *to the exclusion of all other delicacies."
> 
> Seriously. . . .in 8th grade I had to learn to diagram sentences like that. . . ...


I guess Mrs. Paulhamus wasn't too fussy about her spelling, though.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Well yeah, but when the item in question is some two-buck piece of fashion fluffery it just seems ridiculous.


Sure. I see. Like class with a K. You're right there. Reminds me of the mail order genius--was it Steve Brown?--who made a mint bragging about his exclusive "faux pearls." Not one in a million knew that "faux" was "fake"!


----------



## Susan in VA

Ah yes. Just like the "rich scent of fine Corinthian vinyl".


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Susan in VA said:


> I guess Mrs. Paulhamus wasn't too fussy about her spelling, though.


<slap!>

Though I must say that sometimes she _would_ put in words that were wrong just to see if we were paying attention. . . and she'd give out Mars bars if we caught her in an error. . . . . .


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> My head now aches, exclusive of all other pains.
> 
> EDIT: Crud. Can't even type now.


You found yet another form! This is what happens when you pull on that innocent-looking thread (!) called language. The exact opposite of what Shakespeare said about sleep. Any entries?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Ah yes. Just like the "rich scent of fine Corinthian vinyl".


Almost missed the small type. Funny.


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> <slap!>
> 
> Though I must say that sometimes she _would_ put in words that were wrong just to see if we were paying attention. . . and she'd give out Mars bars if we caught her in an error. . . . . .


<ahem> Foolish me, I thought you were quoting your _teacher_....


----------



## Leslie

I read a book on my Kindle today and the people had "gleutial" muscles. The first time I just rolled my eyes. The second time I decided the editor had gone on vacation when this book was being edited. The same people with said muscles also had to "gage" the distance down the road.

Sigh....

Gleutial? Seriously?

L


----------



## Susan in VA

I have to say that (for me) that sort of thing is what makes Kindle-reading not as perfect as it could be. In the classics, as far as I can tell the errors are technical problems caused by the scanning and OCR software. But the inadequate editing and proofreading of most of the newer indie e-books is driving me nuts. So far, only two or three have been ok; in the others I'm constantly being jolted out of the reading flow by "gleutial"-type errors. Finding two or more_ per page _tells me that not a great deal of effort was put into the editing.

It's a real shame, because it hurts the industry. There are at least two books by KB authors that I liked a great deal as far as plot and characters, and I would really have liked to buy DTB versions of those as gifts, but I can't bring myself to give gift books that are in that state.


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> It's a real shame, because it hurts the industry. There are at least two books by KB authors that I liked a great deal as far as plot and characters, and I would really have liked to buy DTB versions of those as gifts, but I can't bring myself to give gift books that are in that state.


I hope you are letting the authors know because I am sure they'd like to fix the errors.

L


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> I hope you are letting the authors know because I am sure they'd like to fix the errors.
> 
> L


I've mentioned it to a couple who had stated in posts that they would appreciate being told about errors.

One recent response was along the lines that much had already been commented on (and presumably fixed on the author's computer) but that if any (!) errors remained it would be much welcomed to hear about them. I wasn't sure whether to take that literally, that of a hundred errors I could point out, 95 of them were already known and fixed, or whether the author simply _thought_ that most of them must have been found.

(I've been meaning to ask what happens with such revisions, how often they're made available for download, and how we can find out before purchase when an e-book was most recently updated and all that, but wanted to search the threads first in case that's already been asked and answered.)


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> I have to say that (for me) that sort of thing is what makes Kindle-reading not as perfect as it could be. In the classics, as far as I can tell the errors are technical problems caused by the scanning and OCR software. But the inadequate editing and proofreading of most of the newer indie e-books is driving me nuts. So far, only two or three have been ok; in the others I'm constantly being jolted out of the reading flow by "gleutial"-type errors. Finding two or more_ per page _tells me that not a great deal of effort was put into the editing.
> 
> It's a real shame, because it hurts the industry. There are at least two books by KB authors that I liked a great deal as far as plot and characters, and I would really have liked to buy DTB versions of those as gifts, but I can't bring myself to give gift books that are in that state.


I've come to the realization that self-editing is impossible. When I edit my own work I read what I intended to write, not what's on the page, yet I find errors in the work of others quite easily. Over time, with the gracious help of many KindleBoards members, I've been able to correct many of my errors but they still exist.

The difficulty for indie authors is the cost of professional editing. At the rate of return on a bargain priced Kindle book an author would have to sell 10,000 copies to make a profit. Without a big advertising budget and contacts with book reviewers who write for major publications, that's very unlikely.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> (I've been meaning to ask what happens with such revisions, how often they're made available for download, and how we can find out before purchase when an e-book was most recently updated and all that, but wanted to search the threads first in case that's already been asked and answered.)


I've updated my books numerous times but it seems that the only way a reader can get an updated copy is to obtain a refund and buy the book again. My workaround is to send a free copy in unencrypted Mobipocket format to anyone who asks.


----------



## Susan in VA

Yep, in our own writing we just see what we want to see!

If I really enjoy a book, I'm quite likely to offer proofreading as a "reader service" though, just because I think it deserves to "be all it can be", to borrow an advertising slogan.   Partly because it's depressing to see a good book held back by easily fixable stuff, and partly because if I really liked it then I took many hours of enjoyment from it and feel that I can give back more with a little of my time than with just the very small amount I paid for it. 

And Jeff, I haven't read any of your books yet, so none of this is aimed at them!


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> And Jeff, I haven't read any of your books yet, so none of this is aimed at them!


Thanks but I deserve a some criticism. If I had it to do over again I would have sought beta readers. In truth, I'd never even heard the term when I decided to self publish. 

I should also point out that I've read a number of indie books that were well edited and many published by a big imprint that were awful.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> I should also point out that I've read a number of indie books that were well edited and many published by a big imprint that were awful.


Quite true.

Someone (and I forget who) said recently that typos and the like jump out at the reader more on the Kindle than on paper. Do you think that's true, and if so, why would that be so?

I do think it's easier to see errors on paper than on a computer screen, probably because of the backlighting. But I'm not sure why the Kindle screen would be different from paper in that respect.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Someone (and I forget who) said recently that typos and the like jump out at the reader more on the Kindle than on paper. Do you think that's true, and if so, why would that be so?
> 
> I do think it's easier to see errors on paper than on a computer screen, probably because of the backlighting. But I'm not sure why the Kindle screen would be different from paper in that respect.


I'm constantly reading paper books, eBooks on computer and Kindle books but haven't noticed any difference.


----------



## Susan in VA

Interesting  --  maybe it's just my eyes, I tend to print things out whenever possible rather than proofread on a computer screen.

Unless it's my own text, in which case it's easier to do it on the computer and fix it as I go.  But if I have to mark it up for someone else, I prefer to do it on paper if the project permits it.

I have NO idea how one would proof something on Kindle.  Annotating with that little keyboard would be a hassle.  I'm guessing it would be possible to get the text as a Word document, but I haven't done anything with document transfers to/from the Kindle yet, so I'm not really sure what the options are.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Interesting -- maybe it's just my eyes, I tend to print things out whenever possible rather than proofread on a computer screen.


I cheat with a 26 inch, high resolution, flat screen monitor and I zoom the page 200%.



Susan in VA said:


> I have NO idea how one would proof something on Kindle. Annotating with that little keyboard would be a hassle. I'm guessing it would be possible to get the text as a Word document, but I haven't done anything with document transfers to/from the Kindle yet, so I'm not really sure what the options are.


You cannot transfer a Kindle document to any other format.

I've had people send me typos using location numbers, but finding the spot in the manuscript is very, very hard.


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> I have NO idea how one would proof something on Kindle. Annotating with that little keyboard would be a hassle. I'm guessing it would be possible to get the text as a Word document, but I haven't done anything with document transfers to/from the Kindle yet, so I'm not really sure what the options are.


As I was reading Ariana's Pride, I came across a few typos and other things I wanted to suggest to Gertie as corrections. I was reading as I was riding in the car so no computer and no paper. I just highlighted the items as I came to them, then when I was at the computer, opened my clippings file. The location numbers were there and I remembered what the changes were by looking at them. It worked quite well. I wouldn't want to do this on a document that was in an earlier draft stage with tons of corrections, of course. That would be tedious. But for the dozen or so I suggested to Gertie, it was fine.

Because of my work, I've gotten very proficient at editing on screen and have come to prefer it to making corrections on paper and then transferring them back. On the other hand, I hate using track changes in Word. Ugh.

L


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> On the other hand, I hate using track changes in Word. Ugh.


Oops.


----------



## Leslie

Jeff said:


> Oops.


Actually, I don't mind if other people use it...then it's easy to accept and reject changes. I just don't like using it myself to try to make corrections. Probably because I get confused with all those strikeouts, different colors, etc.

L


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> Actually, I don't mind if other people use it...then it's easy to accept and reject changes. I just don't like using it myself to try to make corrections. Probably because I get confused with all those strikeouts, different colors, etc.


I was just teasing you, Leslie. I don't like it either, but there were so few notations in your novella that it seemed appropriate.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> I cheat with a 26 inch, high resolution, flat screen monitor and I zoom the page 200%.


Oooh, nice!!



Jeff said:


> You cannot transfer a Kindle document to any other format.


Well no, but _originally_ the document must have been written in something else, right? You write a book in Word and have somebody edit/proof it in Word and THEN re-format it for e-books -- or am I totally off with that?



Jeff said:


> I've had people send me typos using location numbers, but finding the spot in the manuscript is very, very hard.


What would be the best way to identify a particular word or phrase in a Kindle text? Location numbers don't pinpoint it closely enough, especially if similar phrases are used multiple times on a page. But how else to do it?


----------



## Susan in VA

Leslie said:


> Because of my work, I've gotten very proficient at editing on screen and have come to prefer it to making corrections on paper and then transferring them back.


It makes a huge difference too whether you have "editing power" for a project or whether someone just wants the errors _marked_. With the former, it's certainly easier just to do it on the computer. Marking stuff up is easier with an old-fashioned red pencil.


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> It makes a huge difference too whether you have "editing power" for a project or whether someone just wants the errors _marked_. With the former, it's certainly easier just to do it on the computer. Marking stuff up is easier with an old-fashioned red pencil.


Yes, I agree and one of my problems is that I don't keep track of corrections I make. If people want to know every little change I made (which includes removing extraneous spaces and adding missing commas) I suggest they use the compare documents feature in Word.

L


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Well no, but _originally_ the document must have been written in something else, right? You write a book in Word and have somebody edit/proof it in Word and THEN re-format it for e-books -- or am I totally off with that?


No, you're absolutely right.



Susan in VA said:


> What would be the best way to identify a particular word or phrase in a Kindle text? Location numbers don't pinpoint it closely enough, especially if similar phrases are used multiple times on a page. But how else to do it?


The main problem with location numbers is if there are multiple editions. The best way is to quote the entire sentence.


----------



## sigrosenblum

We've been lamenting the lack of editing in the book trade. But even the NY Times has been slipping--for years. An article in today's paper had this:

*He said weapons and documents were found on the men and added that Palestinian Authority forces had found similar caches in recent months, including inside a mosque. Some 200 Hamas-affiliated men were in jail in the West Bank awaiting trial, he said but insisted they were charged with specific violations, not for Hamas affiliation.*

Care to comment?


----------



## Annie

Wow. That sounds like a kid talking without breaks.


----------



## Jeff

After reading it several time, I may know what it means.


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

I don't know if somebody mentioned this one yet, as there are over 30 pages of this thread......

My pet peeve is - and it makes me cringe - when someone says "went" when they should have said "gone".  Like fingernails on the chalkboard.

It seems so common these days, that eventually it may become acceptable.

Another word is "snuck"  which is now in the dictionary and when I was growing up, my parents always told us it was "sneaked".  I still have to use "sneaked."

And remember those English teachers who insisted on having students diagram sentences and all those other old-fashioned methods?  They were worth their weight in gold!


----------



## Susan in VA

Carol Hanrahan said:


> I don't know if somebody mentioned this one yet, as there are over 30 pages of this thread......
> 
> My pet peeve is - and it makes me cringe - when someone says "went" when they should have said "gone". Like fingernails on the chalkboard.


But Carol, you could of went through all those 30 pages in no time!

<ducking and running>


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

Fast, aren't I?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> But Carol, you could of went through all those 30 pages in no time!
> 
> <ducking and running>


But, Carol, note her fiendishly clever construction!


----------



## patrisha w.

Carol Hanrahan said:


> And remember those English teachers who insisted on having students diagram sentences and all those other old-fashioned methods? They were worth their weight in gold!


{preens}
I used to teach diagramming to the seventh graders by putting diagrams on the board and having the kids reconstruct the sentences which is actually a lot of fun if there are lots of prepositional phrases! I didn't spend as much time on it as I would have liked but I had at least one student in college who sent me an email saying thanks because it was so helpful in her grammar classes.
Having said that, it is true that there were many seventh graders who hated it and said it confused them!

patrisha


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Leslie said:


> I tried to copy this box here, but I can't, so you'll need to link over.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis
> 
> Look at the "Ranks of Nobility" on the right hand side. Am I the only one who finds the entry above Emperor and Empress amusing?
> 
> L


It must have been changed? Am I missing something?


Betsy


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

Ok, Susan and Sig,
You got me.  All I can say is maybe I hadn't had my tea yet this morning.......



I'm keeping quiet now.......


----------



## Jeff

Betsy the Quilter said:


> It must have been changed? Am I missing something?
> 
> 
> Betsy


It has been fixed. There was an entry above King and Queen with a fictional science fiction rank.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Carol Hanrahan said:


> Ok, Susan and Sig,
> You got me. All I can say is maybe I hadn't had my tea yet this morning.......
> 
> 
> 
> I'm keeping quiet now.......


No, Carol--let's hear from you!


----------



## Susan in VA

Carol Hanrahan said:


> Ok, Susan and Sig,
> You got me. All I can say is maybe I hadn't had my tea yet this morning.......
> 
> 
> 
> I'm keeping quiet now.......


Aww, just teasing, Carol!


----------



## Jeff

What the heck does _gobsmacked_ mean? I just saw the word in a Reuters headline on Google News: *'Diversity "gobsmacked" by UK TV talent show win'*


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> What the heck does _gobsmacked_ mean? I just saw the word in a Reuters headline on Google News: *'Diversity "gobsmacked" by UK TV talent show win'*


Slang for astonished.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Slang for astonished.


You actually knew that?


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> You actually knew that?


Yep -- my aunt in Newcastle uses the term.


----------



## Jeff

If I had been forced to guess I might have ventured that it meant to be struck by a sailor or by a viscous substance.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> If I had been forced to guess I might have ventured that it meant to be struck by a sailor or by a viscous substance.


I see how you might think that... "gob" is a slang term in the north for mouth (as in "shut yer gob!"), so the implication is that something shocked or surprised you as much as being "smacked in the gob" would have.


----------



## sigrosenblum

"Why can't the English learn to--set a good example...?"

Henry Higgins


----------



## Susan in VA

My favorite musical!  (No surprise, right?  )


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> My favorite musical! (No surprise, right? )


"Right? Of course right!"

Yente (The Matchmaker)


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Right? Of course right!
> 
> Yente (The Matchmaker)


Now I have that one running through my head. And it's one of those that tends to stick. 
(But he's a _nice_ man, a _good_ man...)


----------



## Leslie

Betsy the Quilter said:


> It must have been changed? Am I missing something?
> 
> 
> Betsy


It had Sith Lord, but it's gone now.

L


----------



## Ethan

patrisha #150 said:


> {preens}
> I used to teach diagramming to the seventh graders by putting diagrams on the board and having the kids reconstruct the sentences which is actually a lot of fun if there are lots of prepositional phrases!Having said that, it is true that there were many seventh graders who hated it and said it confused them!
> 
> patrisha


Oh yeah, "structural linguistics" is what it was called in my day - what total, unmitgated torture it were! Diagram, smiagram!!!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Jeff said:


> You actually knew that?


I knew that, too.


And I loved diagramming sentences. 

Betsy


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Leslie said:


> It had Sith Lord, but it's gone now.
> 
> L


Too funny. It must be


Spoiler



hell


 keeping up with all the stuff on wickipedia

Betsy


----------



## Ann in Arlington

I knew gobsmacked. . . .and I also loved diagramming sentences.  I always wished we'd do more of it.


----------



## Jeff

Bunch of smart alecks. 

EDIT:


----------



## sigrosenblum

I just got this e-mail:

ENGLISH 





This is quite the most amazing sentence I have come across
in the English  language.


The person who made this sentence must be a vocabulary
GENIUS.
Read the following  sentence  carefully :

"I do not know where family doctors acquired
illegibly perplexing handwriting  nevertheless, 

extraordinary pharmaceutical intellectuality
counterbalancing  indecipherability, 

transcendentalizes
intercommunication' s
incomprehensibleness ".

This is a sentence where the first word is of one letter
long, second word  of two letters, third word is three letters long
............ 8th word is 8  letters long and so on ... 20th word is 20 letters long !!


----------



## Susan in VA

Cool!!  Even just getting to TEN would have been impressive.  

Is there an author given?


----------



## Jeff

A me too type never wakens without constant ancillary tormenting comparisons dispiritedly circumventing expressiveness.


----------



## geoffthomas

Ya know, I just sit in awe of youse guys.

I sometimes haven't a clue what you are talking about.

But you do it so well.

I LOVE this thread....and some of my favorite people hang out here.

But I am not even going to try to contribute.....Just watch and learn.

Just sayin....


----------



## intinst

geoffthomas said:


> Ya know, I just sit in awe of youse guys.
> 
> I sometimes haven't a clue what you are talking about.
> 
> But you do it so well.
> 
> I LOVE this thread....and some of my favorite people hang out here.
> 
> But I am not even going to try to contribute.....Just watch and learn.
> 
> Just sayin....


Know what you mean, Geoff. I read every post, but worry about all the ways that I violate the grammar rules every day in both writing and speech. Perhaps I am getting better, but it is a little too late to expect great improvement.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> A me too type never wakens without constant ancillary tormenting comparisons dispiritedly circumventing expressiveness.


Super-impressive, Jeff. Is this yours or off the shelf?


----------



## Jeff

geoffthomas said:


> Ya know, I just sit in awe of youse guys.
> 
> I sometimes haven't a clue what you are talking about.
> 
> But you do it so well.
> 
> I LOVE this thread....and some of my favorite people hang out here.
> 
> But I am not even going to try to contribute.....Just watch and learn.
> 
> Just sayin....





intinst said:


> Know what you mean, Geoff. I read every post, but worry about all the ways that I violate the grammar rules every day in both writing and speech. Perhaps I am getting better, but it is a little too late to expect great improvement.


It's just a game. Come and play.


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> Super-impressive, Jeff. Is this yours or off the shelf?


I started intending to go to 20 but after 13 I thought of a word that would, more or less, complete the sentence and quit. It was harder than I thought.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Cool!! Even just getting to TEN would have been impressive.
> 
> Is there an author given?


No author, as I recall. But I'll see what I can discover.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> A me too type never wakens without constant ancillary tormenting comparisons dispiritedly circumventing expressiveness.


I'm impressed. The fact they actually make _sense_ too is just amazing.

(and I'm sooo tempted to give it a try, but I know I'd be spending the next three hours on it!)


----------



## Susan in VA

geoffthomas said:


> Ya know, I just sit in awe of youse guys.
> 
> I sometimes haven't a clue what you are talking about.
> 
> But you do it so well.
> 
> I LOVE this thread....and some of my favorite people hang out here.
> 
> But I am not even going to try to contribute.....Just watch and learn.
> 
> Just sayin....


Awe, shmawe. We're just having fun. Just because we're nitpickers doesn't mean we don't like to play -- so come play with us!


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> I'm impressed. The fact they actually make _sense_ too is just amazing.
> 
> (and I'm sooo tempted to give it a try, but I know I'd be spending the next three hours on it!)


Ten words takes only a few minutes, but it becomes exponentially harder with each word since the word choices are fewer. Going all the way to twenty is a major accomplishment.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> I started intending to go to 20 but after 13 I thought of a word that would, more or less, complete the sentence and quit. It was harder than I thought.


All hail great Guru of grammatical giftedness! I won't even try. Terrific, Jeff!


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Cool!! Even just getting to TEN would have been impressive.
> 
> Is there an author given?


I queried--but no luck.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Ten words takes only a few minutes,


That made it irresistible, of course.
_
I do not tend often toward trivial fanciful pointless statements.
_
But to get anything worthwhile would certainly take much longer.... for me, anyway!


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> _
> I do not tend often toward trivial fanciful pointless statements.
> _


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> That made it irresistible, of course.
> _
> I do not tend often toward trivial fanciful pointless statements.
> _
> But to get anything worthwhile would certainly take much longer.... for me, anyway!


Bravo, Susan!


----------



## Susan in VA

Why thank you, gentlemen. <curtseying>


----------



## Sailor

-Removed-

 Does this make sense?

Sailor gots gumption! I pride myself on tearing up the written word!

ETA: *crickets* I am the thread killer! Never mind, it was probably a stupid 13 word sentence anyway. I must be out of my element. 
I'll be back in the 'housewares' section of this Kindle site for further Kitchenaid and rice cooker updates...


----------



## Sailor

Oh, I just thought about it - is are our sentences supposed to be without punctuations?

Sailor


----------



## Susan in VA

huh?  Sailor, why did you delete a 13-worder?  We want to see!!

(I have no idea whether punctuation is ok but I don't see why not.  Sig started it, and the one he posted had some.)


----------



## Jeff

Ah crud, Sailor. Re-post it.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> huh? Sailor, why did you delete a 13-worder? We want to see!!
> 
> (I have no idea whether punctuation is ok but I don't see why not. Sig started it, and the one he posted had some.)


I'm not the inventor, but I think that punctuation would actually help.


----------



## Ethan

Jeff said:


> A me too type never wakens without constant ancillary tormenting comparisons dispiritedly circumventing expressiveness.


Well, I attempted to diagram your most excellent rambling, but ended up with a brain cramp which required massive doses of alcohol to remedy. Alas, this shall consume the better part of my day, but someone has to do it.


----------



## Leslie

I saw this sign yesterday (outside a hospital) that I am still puzzling over. I should have taken a picture but my mind was distracted.

*No Smoking Zone.

Smokers, please "Do Not"

crush your cigarettes in the grass.
*

Am I the only one who thinks this is confusing?

L


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> I saw this sign yesterday (outside a hospital) that I am still puzzling over. I should have taken a picture but my mind was distracted.
> 
> *No Smoking Zone.
> 
> Smokers, please "Do Not"
> 
> crush your cigarettes in the grass.
> *
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks this is confusing?


It makes perfect sense to me. The smoker sees the "no smoking" sign, looks at the burning cigarette in his hand, reads the rest of the sign and...

Hmm. I see what you mean.


----------



## Carolyn Kephart

Jeff said:


> It makes perfect sense to me. The smoker sees the "no smoking" sign, looks at the burning cigarette in his hand, reads the rest of the sign and...
> 
> Hmm. I see what you mean.


My mom always used quotation marks instead of all caps in her letters. I always figured it was a southern thing.

Regarding convoluted syntax (I refer to earlier posts), I've often wondered what the groundlings thought when Shakespeare gave them stuff like this to chew on:

"If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly: if the assassination
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
With his surcease success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We'ld jump the life to come. But in these cases
We still have judgment here; that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
To plague the inventor: this even-handed justice
Commends the ingredients of our poison'd chalice
To our own lips." ~Macbeth, Act 1, scene 7

Admittedly the text might well be corrupt, and admittedly Will probably didn't care that much about reactions in the cheap seats...but dang.

CK


----------



## Jeff

I have a "headache" again.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Carolyn Kephart said:


> My mom always used quotation marks instead of all caps in her letters. I always figured it was a southern thing.
> 
> Regarding convoluted syntax (I refer to earlier posts), I've often wondered what the groundlings thought when Shakespeare gave them stuff like this to chew on:
> 
> "If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
> It were done quickly: if the assassination
> Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
> With his surcease success; that but this blow
> Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
> But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
> We'ld jump the life to come. But in these cases
> We still have judgment here; that we but teach
> Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
> To plague the inventor: this even-handed justice
> Commends the ingredients of our poison'd chalice
> To our own lips." ~Macbeth, Act 1, scene 7
> 
> Admittedly the text might well be corrupt, and admittedly Will probably didn't care that much about reactions in the cheap seats...but dang.
> 
> CK


Carolyn's explanation of the perplexing quotes satisfies me. But Will should join this thread to improve his powers of explication.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Looking for a cushion for my chaise lounger. Went to a patio furniture website. Prominently on the home page it said:

This Site is Under Construction Please
bare with us. Thank you​
Sigh!


----------



## Chad Winters

uh oh...nudist furniture store!!


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> Looking for a cushion for my chaise lounger. Went to a patio furniture website. Prominently on the home page it said:
> 
> This Site is Under Construction Please
> 
> bare with us. Thank you​
> Sigh!


Which reminds me of the store sign during the Great Depression:

"No business as usual during alterations."


----------



## sigrosenblum

This review on Amazon contains a common confusion. Can you spot it?



"Line by Line:..." was painfully confusing. My advise? buy "Grammatically Correct" by Anne Stilman. Unlike Ms. Kehrwald Cook, Ms. Stilman does follow her own advise in writing.


----------



## Jeff

advice not advise


----------



## sherylb

I have noticed our various news media are one of the more frequent offenders when they try to sensationalize their stories. I still think about this one and just shake my head. We had a tragic event occur recently where an armored truck guard was killed by robbers and the lead news story was: Armored Guard Killed During Robbery.
If he _was_ armored he would have been protected and not killed!!
Oh my gosh.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> This review on Amazon


Too funny that this is in a review for a grammar book!


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Yeah. . .especially because you would think the reviewer would have read the thing. . . .unless they're trying to be funny on purpose. . . .if so, the joke didn't work. . . .o'course (I just now made that word up) her goof was as much, perhaps, a spelling error as grammar.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> Yeah. . .especially because you would think the reviewer would have read the thing. . . .unless they're trying to be funny on purpose. . . .if so, the joke didn't work. . . .o'course (I just now made that word up) her goof was as much, perhaps, a spelling error as grammar.


It was no joke. The reviewer was in earnest.


----------



## Rasputina

My latest pet peeve. except when people mean accept. *bangs head on desk*

Oh and the enter/return key is your friend. Enough with the wall of text.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Care to critique this from CNNMoney.com today?:

"The plan will meet with opposition from those opposed to giving the government a more heavy hand in the financial marketplace."

I would blue-pencil two stylistic stumbles. How about you?


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

That almost makes my head hurt.


----------



## Jeff

*"The plan will meet with resistance * opposition * from those opposed to giving the government a* more heavy *stronger hand in the financial marketplace."*

Unless of course the phrase "opposition from those opposed" actually was intended to mean those in favor via double negation. 

I'll get it right eventually.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Just heard on CNN Headline News:  "Haiti is one of the poorest nations in the western atmosphere."


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

Air head reporters.....  ok I couldn't help myself.....


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Well. . . .the news reader was just reading from the prompter. . . so air head copy editors.

And, for the record, in the next half hour when the story came around again it had been corrected it to 'hemisphere'.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> Well. . . .the news reader was just reading from the prompter. . . so air head copy editors.
> 
> And, for the record, in the next half hour when the story came around again it had been corrected it to 'hemisphere'.


Thank goodness. I was going to book a flight to Haiti.


----------



## sigrosenblum

From today's NY Times:

"As a curator of exhibitions for the New-York Historical Society, Kathleen Hulser is passionate about the past. She craved an antique home, but with her salary, she knew she would have to compromise."

What looks wrong here--another goof from the increasingly goofy lingo-lazy laggards at the world's "newspaper of record"?

Sorry, it's not the hyphen that stick out like a sore thumb. That--incredibly--is correct. For that's exactly how the august Society styles itself on its Website. Why? Can anyone tell us?  

P.S. Even KB's Spell Check cries out in protest!


----------



## Susan in VA

Seems to me she should be a curator of exhibits, not exhibitions.  

But then exhibits can be part of an exhibition, and so perhaps this is accepted (if sloppy) usage within the antiquities field after all?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Seems to me she should be a curator of exhibits, not exhibitions.
> 
> But then exhibits can be part of an exhibition, and so perhaps this is accepted (if sloppy) usage within the antiquities field after all?


I may have misled you. I did not mean that there was something else beyond the hyphen that was wrong. I meant the hyphen. Crazy, isn't it to say New-York? But then, I'm originally from Brook-Lyn, and was in the Marine-Corps. Isn't it nice here on Kindle-Boards!

Sig-Rosenblum


----------



## geoffthomas

Hmmm.  And I thought the commas were wrong.

Just sayin.....


----------



## Jeff

"The New-York Historical Society [NYHS] was founded in 1804 - when New York was often spelled with a hyphen."

http://www.newyorkfamilyhistory.org/modules.php?name=sections&op=printpage&artid=69


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> "The New-York Historical Society [NYHS] was founded in 1804  when New York was often spelled with a hyphen."
> 
> http://www.newyorkfamilyhistory.org/modules.php?name=sections&op=printpage&artid=69


Jeff--a font of info--as always. Thanks. (But I would still like them to change it.)


----------



## sigrosenblum

geoffthomas said:


> Hmmm. And I thought the commas were wrong.
> 
> Just sayin.....


Now that you mention it, I would have written it thus:

"As a curator of exhibitions for the New-York Historical Society, Kathleen Hulser is passionate about the past. She craved an antique home but, with her salary, she knew she would have to compromise."

I note, also, that we Americans tend to use many more commas than the English, for example. But, as a copywriter for most of my career, I have found that they do help to speed understanding.


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> Jeff--a font of info--as always. Thanks. (But I would still like them to change it.)


You are not alone but they are very proud of that hyphen and cling to it passionately.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> You are not alone but they are very proud of that hyphen and cling to it passionately.


I can understand that. I have those symbolic clingings, as well. And my wife is an even fiercer advocate of the past. She was devoted to and was on the staff of the Long Island Historical Society--plus several other guardian institutions of the "long ago and far away."


----------



## Susan in VA

I did in fact misunderstand your first post, then.  Sorry.

Place names are funny that way.  They evolve, and yet not everything that includes the name changes with it.  Our river here is on the map as the Potomac, but there are multiple towns, streets, and businesses with the name variously spelled as Potomack, Potowmack, and Potowmac.  When the earliest ones of these were named, there was no standard accepted spelling.  It's always fun watching tourists figure it out.  

And I doubt the Peking Gourmet Inn restaurant on Route 7 (best duck ever!) is going to change its name to the Beijing Gourmet Inn anytime soon.

As for New York, or New-York, if the members of that organization have always used the hyphen, I think they ought to keep it...  presumably it was correct when they named their society, so why not?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> I did in fact misunderstand your first post, then. Sorry.
> 
> Place names are funny that way. They evolve, and yet not everything that includes the name changes with it. Our river here is on the map as the Potomac, but there are multiple towns, streets, and businesses with the name variously spelled as Potomack, Potowmack, and Potowmac. When the earliest ones of these were named, there was no standard accepted spelling. It's always fun watching tourists figure it out.
> 
> And I doubt the Peking Gourmet Inn restaurant on Route 7 (best duck ever!) is going to change its name to the Beijing Gourmet Inn anytime soon.
> 
> As for New York, or New-York, if the members of that organization have always used the hyphen, I think they ought to keep it... presumably it was correct when they named their society, so why not?


All good, interesting points. And who would ever order Beijing Duck!

Irrelevant aside: If you are interested in the Chinese language, see "Chinese Written Characters" by Rose Quong at a library. I published it long ago.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> All good, interesting points. And who would ever order Beijing Duck!
> 
> Irrelevant aside: If you are interested in the Chinese language, see "Chinese Written Characters" by Rose Quong at a library. I published it long ago.


I just looked it up on Amazon. There are three versions listed (1968, 1973, 1994, all different publishers), the first and third by Rose Quong and the second by Ju-ssu Kuang, which I'm (very hesitantly) assuming is the same person. Do you know if there are differences/revisions between them? It does look like a very interesting book. I'll have to check the local library for it next time I go.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> I just looked it up on Amazon. There are three versions listed (1968, 1973, 1994, all different publishers), the first and third by Rose Quong and the second by Ju-ssu Kuang, which I'm (very hesitantly) assuming is the same person. Do you know if there are differences/revisions between them? It does look like a very interesting book. I'll have to check the local library for it next time I go.


The publishing history of this book is fairly complex. But here is the hardcover trade edition which I (Cobble Hill Press) published. The Beacon paperback was done from our press sheets, believe.

I have never seen the most recent version. Our book was also done on hand made paper for a slip-cased edition. The trade edition won a design award. Very handsome, indeed. And I am pleased to say that it is still on the shelves of many libraries around the world. It was even the victim of book piracy--which is a detective story in itself!

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Written-Characters-Their-Wisdom/dp/B000OKWZLI/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245387884&sr=1-13


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> The publishing history of this book is fairly complex. But here is the hardcover trade edition which I (Cobble Hill Press) published. The Beacon paperback was done from our press sheets, believe.
> 
> I have never seen the most recent version. Our book was also done on hand made paper for a slip-cased edition. The trade edition won a design award. Very handsome, indeed. And I am pleased to say that it is still on the shelves of many libraries around the world. It was even the victim of book piracy--which is a detective story in itself!
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Written-Characters-Their-Wisdom/dp/B000OKWZLI/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245387884&sr=1-13


"Fairly complex" is probably an understatement, given that your link adds a fourth publisher's name to the list, though from the same year as the Houghton Mifflin version. I'll report back to let you know which (if any) version is on the shelves at my local library. Fairfax County is proud of its public library system, so they'd _better_ have a copy of this! 

What exactly is book piracy?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> "Fairly complex" is probably an understatement, given that your link adds a fourth publisher's name to the list, though from the same year as the Houghton Mifflin version. I'll report back to let you know which (if any) version is on the shelves at my local library. Fairfax County is proud of its public library system, so they'd _better_ have a copy of this!
> 
> What exactly is book piracy?


It's even getting too complex for me. The bottom line is that Cobble Hill Press is the imprint to look for. To complicate things even more--if I dare--there is a new Cobble Hill Press which picked up the name many years after I dropped it and went OOB. But I had nothing to do with that operation.

There's probably a more current term than book piracy, but it escapes me. However,the racket is still thriving. Book piracy simply means taking the books of others and reproducing them without permission and selling them.

Whenever a best-seller appears in the US these days, it pops up within a few days in India, etc. and is then hawked world-wide. They simply buy a copy of the book here, ship it to Asia, typically, scan everything and print it. Voila--big bucks with no royalties. My case was a bit more involved. But the same principle--and crime--were involved.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> "Fairly complex" is probably an understatement, given that your link adds a fourth publisher's name to the list, though from the same year as the Houghton Mifflin version. I'll report back to let you know which (if any) version is on the shelves at my local library. Fairfax County is proud of its public library system, so they'd _better_ have a copy of this!
> 
> What exactly is book piracy?


Here's a NY Times article on book piracy. Apparently, that is still the descriptive term. But, today, digital crime is the more common transgression. Paper reproductions are restricted--for obvious reasons--to hefty best-sellers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/technology/internet/12digital.html


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> There's probably a more current term than book piracy, but it escapes me. However,the racket is still thriving. Book piracy simply means taking the books of others and reproducing them without permission and selling them.
> 
> Whenever a best-seller appears in the US these days, it pops up within a few days in India, etc. and is then hawked world-wide. They simply buy a copy of the book here, ship it to Asia, typically, scan everything and print it. Voila--big bucks with no royalties. My case was a bit more involved. But the same principle--and crime--were involved.


How frustrating that must be! For the author, it may be a tiny comfort to know that a book is popular enough to be "worth" pirating, but the financial loss to author and publisher over time would be tremendous.

And I suspect that because a new hardback may sell for $ 30 rather than $ 300 as some designer handbag would, it's the pirating of the latter that is more actively tracked down by authorities.

I didn't realize such a crime even existed for books. I know there are people who think nothing of paying for illegal copies of designer fashion items, but I'd like to think that avid readers would be above that... a silly conceit, I know.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> How frustrating that must be! For the author, it may be a tiny comfort to know that a book is popular enough to be "worth" pirating, but the financial loss to author and publisher over time would be tremendous.
> 
> And I suspect that because a new hardback may sell for $ 30 rather than $ 300 as some designer handbag would, it's the pirating of the latter that is more actively tracked down by authorities.
> 
> I didn't realize such a crime even existed for books. I know there are people who think nothing of paying for illegal copies of designer fashion items, but I'd like to think that avid readers would be above that... a silly conceit, I know.


I don't know much about the crime or the efforts of publishers. Except that, for my own books, I was eager to have DRM (Digital Rights Management) in place. But there seems to be a protest against that in some quarters.

It's a very complicated subject. And I wish I knew more. But If I went wherever my curiosity took me (a temptation!) I'd never write a line!


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Here's a NY Times article on book piracy. Apparently, that is still the descriptive term. But, today, digital crime is the more common transgression. Paper reproductions are restricted--for obvious reasons--to hefty best-sellers.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/technology/internet/12digital.html


Digital piracy is rampant, I gather, though I'd imagine perhaps not as much for books as for music.

Both for the producers and the consumers of pirated copies, there is probably less of an inhibition when the illegal acts involve only keyboard clicks. Somehow the idea of illegally producing a paper version is much more offensive. Maybe it has something to do with my own feelings for books -- I like to read, and for that I'm thrilled with my Kindle, but I also like books for themselves, and can't imagine giving up any of mine even if I had them all on Kindle as well.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Digital piracy is rampant, I gather, though I'd imagine perhaps not as much for books as for music.
> 
> Both for the producers and the consumers of pirated copies, there is probably less of an inhibition when the illegal acts involve only keyboard clicks. Somehow the idea of illegally producing a paper version is much more offensive. Maybe it has something to do with my own feelings for books -- I like to read, and for that I'm thrilled with my Kindle, but I also like books for themselves, and can't imagine giving up any of mine even if I had them all on Kindle as well.


Interesting speculations. Again, it's a complex subject. And a good book idea--the motivations of people. What leads them to steal under one set of circumstances and yet, under another set of facts, refrain from it.

Ease has much to do with it, as you say. Click and it's done. Now my night's sleep will be populated with phantom book outlines, research sources, title possibilities, demographic deliberations. As the serial killer cried: "Stop me. please!"


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> If I went wherever my curiosity took me (a temptation!) I'd never write a line!


Too true!

All this talk of multiple publishing houses has inspired me to resume a search I began a number of years ago; perhaps now with the help of the internet I will have more success. My grandfather wrote a couple of dozen pulp fiction works in the mid-1940's, only a few published under his own name and the rest under several pseudonyms, of which I only know one. I own half a dozen of these literary "gems", but of course I would love to track down the titles of the others, and find copies if any are still in existence. (It was trashy stuff, but he did it to pay the bills, and churned out one every few weeks.) They were all with one small publisher, whose name is listed in the front of the books I have, but that publisher was taken over by a slightly larger one, which then folded around 1953. I tried to find out which company took over the assets and paper records, but hit a couple of dead ends. But this was in Germany; they tend to keep records of everything.  So it's just a matter of asking the right questions. Wish me luck...


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> And a good book idea--the motivations of people. What leads them to steal under one set of circumstances and yet, under another set of facts, refrain from it.
> 
> Ease has much to do with it, as you say. Click and it's done. Now my night's sleep will be populated with phantom book outlines, research sources, title possibilities, demographic deliberations. As the serial killer cried: "Stop me. please!"


The relative ease of committing a crime, and the resulting lowered threshold, are the subject of several psychological studies... some of them date back to the sixties or so, and it would be interesting to combine them all and see how things have changed due to the "click factor". Happy researching.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> The relative ease of committing a crime, and the resulting lowered threshold, are the subject of several psychological studies... some of them date back to the sixties or so, and it would be interesting to combine them all and see how things have changed due to the "click factor". Happy researching.


Thank you. But my researches on this fascinating subject will have to be confined to dreamland. I have more projects in the real world than I can handle.


----------



## Susan in VA

Dreamland.  Oh dear.  It's 3.20 in the morning.  How did that happen?!?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Dreamland. Oh dear. It's 3.20 in the morning. How did that happen?!?


Blame KB.


----------



## Susan in VA

I'd like to...  but in truth, when I'm on KB for an extended time I'm usually also doing other computer work (or paperwork) at the same time.  

Of course being distracted by KB does tend to increase the amount of time the paperwork takes.  However, if it's something boring, it might not get done at all if I didn't have KB posts to make it more fun.


----------



## Susan in VA

Not really a pet peeve, since I don't hear it used correctly OR incorrectly very often: home vs. hone.

But I'm of the old-fashioned school of thought that believes journalists (and that includes radio announcers) should be held to higher standards when it comes to language usage. This morning on WTOP radio, in a news broadcast: So-and-so "honed in on the truth"...

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/hone.html


----------



## Annalog

The skills of the announcer (or copywriter) need to be honed.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Today, an announcer on CNN described Farrah Fawcett as "ravenous." What did he mean to say?


----------



## Ann in Arlington

And, apparently, Michael Jackson used to sleep in a hyperbolic chamber. .  . . .

Plus, I heard there was a bad line call in a tennis match but the player didn't blame it on her losing the match.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

sigrosenblum said:


> Today, an announcer on CNN described Farrah Fawcett as "ravenous." What did he mean to say?


Is that a rhetorical question? Or do you really want to know? I thought she was quite ravishing and I am also devastated by her demise. A sad thing indeed. B.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

And if he'd described her as ravishing that would have been fine.  To say she was ravenous means she was really really hungry.  He picked the wrong word.


----------



## Jeff

Ann in Arlington said:


> And if he'd described her as ravishing that would have been fine. To say she was ravenous means she was really really hungry. He picked the wrong word.


They may have meant to say that she was ravaged by the disease, but ravenous is surely the wrong word.


----------



## Susan in VA

I would never have guessed that they might have meant _ravishing_ when they said _ravenous_. Just too far apart. Maybe it was right before the announcer's lunch break, and his mind was on that...


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> I would never have guessed that they might have meant _ravishing_ when they said _ravenous_. Just too far apart. Maybe it was right before the announcer's lunch break, and his mind was on that...


I guess it was because I had just read the posts in the "What is your favorite food?" And I was starving so when I saw ravenous, I naturally thought of ravishing some radishes... see how the human mind works? Fascinating. Or is that fastening? Maybe I should be fastingnating...


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I guess it was because I had just read the posts in the "What is your favorite food?" And I was starving so when I saw ravenous, I naturally thought of ravishing some radishes... see how the human mind works? Fascinating. Or is that fastening? Maybe I should be fastingnating...


I just read your post with all your books in it, and am wondering whether your mind works like that when you write books too, or just here on KB. Because if you write books the way you write posts, with all those jumps and twists, I think I need a martini before I tackle that series...


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> I just read your post with all your books in it, and am wondering whether your mind works like that when you write books too, or just here on KB. Because if you write books the way you write posts, with all those jumps and twists, I think I need a martini before I tackle that series...


My most beloved Miss Susan in VA, you will need much more than a martini. You will need some cherry wine and some sweet white wine and some beer from Kilkenny, Ireland and some Glendronach Scotch. Then and only then will you be able to thoroughly understand the supersensory exultation and underlying esoteric emanations from the characters in the series. LOL.  Drink up, read down! Yo, ho, me hearties!


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> My most beloved Miss Susan in VA, you will need much more than a martini. You will need some cherry wine and some sweet white wine and some beer from Kilkenny, Ireland and some Glendronach Scotch. Then and only then will you be able to thoroughly understand the supersensory exultation and underlying esoteric emanations from the characters in the series. LOL.  Drink up, read down! Yo, ho, me hearties!


Hmmmmmmmm.

Well, "supersensory exultation" sounds like a good thing, though quite incomprehensible.

But I'll pass on the sweet white wine and the beer. Never been a beer drinker, and prefer a dry red.

I have a long TBR list, but I guess I'd better add these... can't have too many books, right?


----------



## SongbirdVB

Please tell me, am I being too picky?  I got an e-newsletter that had this subject: "Who else is in shock of Michael Jackson?"  The same wording was repeated in the newsletter ("I am still in shock of this news" and "...with everyone calling me of the news."). My grammer is by no means perfect, but this annoyed me so much I unsubscribed from the newsletter.  Is this correct use of the word "of?"


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Maybe the writer only knows one preposition so uses it for everything. . . . .


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Hmmmmmmmm.
> 
> Well, "supersensory exultation" sounds like a good thing, though quite incomprehensible.
> 
> But I'll pass on the sweet white wine and the beer. Never been a beer drinker, and prefer a dry red.
> 
> I have a long TBR list, but I guess I'd better add these... can't have too many books, right?


OK, well, you don't have to drink the beer or the sweet wine as long as I make it to (or shall I say 'of') your TBR list (which I thought I was already on ). No matter you can still get the supersensory thing with dry red, but with the alchemy, you'll need dry and moist, hot and cold, soft and hard, above and below and all those mystical things  Thanks, Brendan


----------



## sigrosenblum

SongbirdVB said:


> Please tell me, am I being too picky? I got an e-newsletter that had this subject: "Who else is in shock of Michael Jackson?" The same wording was repeated in the newsletter ("I am still in shock of this news" and "...with everyone calling me of the news."). My grammer is by no means perfect, but this annoyed me so much I unsubscribed from the newsletter. Is this correct use of the word "of?"


Not too picky, at all. But maybe one of our local experts here on KB can tell us if this is a regionalism of some kind. It's amazing how many "mistakes" are well-established and accepted one place or another!


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> OK, well, you don't have to drink the beer or the sweet wine as long as I make it to (or shall I say 'of') your TBR list (which I thought I was already on ).


Not with all _ten _books you weren't! I figured I'd get my feet wet first. Problem is, I'll "test out" an author, and then if I like what they wrote, I want to read everything else they've written. That tends to keep lengthening the TBR list. 

I've only had my Kindle for less than 2 1/2 months, and it's getting out of hand.... I think what stopped me Before Kindle was that the stack of books by the bed would eventually threaten to topple, and then I'd stop buying for a while (unless I could find another spot to start stacking them). Now there are no such visual reminders, so the list just keeps growing. Scary.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Not with all _ten _books you weren't! I figured I'd get my feet wet first. Problem is, I'll "test out" an author, and then if I like what they wrote, I want to read everything else they've written. That tends to keep lengthening the TBR list.
> 
> I've only had my Kindle for less than 2 1/2 months, and it's getting out of hand.... I think what stopped me Before Kindle was that the stack of books by the bed would eventually threaten to topple, and then I'd stop buying for a while (unless I could find another spot to start stacking them). Now there are no such visual reminders, so the list just keeps growing. Scary.


I have that same problem. There's always a stack of DTB's by the bed and I'm always tripping over them, but they are too precious to actually read or put away. Now I'm addicted to the Kindleboards and that's what's scary. I should be working on my novels right now this very instance... instant? Which is it? But here I am posting like I have good sense!


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I have that same problem. There's always a stack of DTB's by the bed and I'm always tripping over them, but they are too precious to actually read or put away. Now I'm addicted to the Kindleboards and that's what's scary. I should be working on my novels right now this very instance... instant? Which is it? But here I am posting like I have good sense!


Hmmm.... the ones that I have that I consider "too precious to actually read" (not many) are also too precious to be sitting in a stack by the bed; they're behind glass...


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Hmmm.... the ones that I have that I consider "too precious to actually read" (not many) are also too precious to be sitting in a stack by the bed; they're behind glass...


If I keep them behind my glass, I'll probably just spill something on them when I'm reaching for it. I don't really have any books precious enough to put behind glass, but I do have some in Rubbermaids . And I have some coffee table pretties that I keep on the ornamental bookshelf because I don't have a coffee table , nor do I drink real coffee due to... well, this is getting rather silly. I lost a ton of books in a flood a few years ago. A complete collection of Star Trek novels!  among other things of great value... to me. So I decided that I would not collect books any more.  Electronic is better. Floods might destroy my computer, but not the WWW.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> If I keep them behind my glass, I'll probably just spill something on them when I'm reaching for it.


LOL!



Brendan Carroll said:


> I don't really have any books precious enough to put behind glass


I don't have any that are precious in an _objective_ sense. No first editions or anything. My behind-glass ones are a bunch that my grandfather wrote (all long since out of print, one temporarily banned), my first "real" book (a 600-page volume of collected fairy tales, everything from Grimm to Andersen to child-proofed 1001 Nights), and a volume of poetry given to me by <ahem> a romantic interest long, long ago, with some really mushy stuff written in the front.



Brendan Carroll said:


> I lost a ton of books in a flood a few years ago. A complete collection of Star Trek novels!  among other things of great value... to me.


How frustrating!! I've lost a bunch of paper files to water damage.... a huge hassle to replace and reconstruct, but still better than if I had lost my books!


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> LOL!
> My behind-glass ones are a bunch that my grandfather wrote (all long since out of print, one temporarily banned), my first "real" book (a 600-page volume of collected fairy tales, everything from Grimm to Andersen to child-proofed 1001 Nights), and a volume of poetry given to me by <ahem> a romantic interest long, long ago, with some really mushy stuff written in the front.


I had some old Masonic books given to me from an uncle and I read them and that is what inspired me to write my series in the first place... however, some of them were so scary, I burned them... well, duh. I was much younger.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I had some old Masonic books given to me from an uncle and I read them and that is what inspired me to write my series in the first place... however, some of them were so scary, I burned them... well, duh. I was much younger.


Oh, what a shame! Now, forgive my ignorance, but aren't those things supposed to be confidential or something? Limited to other Masons? Or is that not taken as seriously as one reads? (Only one Mason in my family, now deceased, so I'm quite uninformed about this topic.)


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Oh, what a shame! Now, forgive my ignorance, but aren't those things supposed to be confidential or something? Limited to other Masons? Or is that not taken as seriously as one reads? (Only one Mason in my family, now deceased, so I'm quite uninformed about this topic.)


Well, yes, that is true enough. My uncle was a Shriner. And well, these were old, old books and he was old, old and I was at the right time in life to receive them... savvy?


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> Well, yes, that is true enough. My uncle was a Shriner. And well, these were old, old books and he was old, old and I was at the right time in life to receive them... savvy?


  I'll shut up now.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Brendan Carroll said:


> I have that same problem. There's always a stack of DTB's by the bed and I'm always tripping over them, but they are too precious to actually read or put away. Now I'm addicted to the Kindleboards and that's what's scary. I should be working on my novels right now this very instance... instant? Which is it? But here I am posting like I have good sense!


"This very instant" would be correct, both grammatically and professionally. Get to it, pal. There are too many diversions out there as it is.


----------



## angelad

SongbirdVB said:


> Please tell me, am I being too picky? I got an e-newsletter that had this subject: "Who else is in shock of Michael Jackson?" The same wording was repeated in the newsletter ("I am still in shock of this news" and "...with everyone calling me of the news."). My grammer is by no means perfect, but this annoyed me so much I unsubscribed from the newsletter. Is this correct use of the word "of?"


Who cares? You won't see that anytime soon again.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

sigrosenblum said:


> "This very instant" would be correct, both grammatically and professionally. Get to it, pal. There are too many diversions out there as it is.


Thanks for info and the boost. I'm working now to make up for sloughing off yesterday. I like the word slough and I believe that we should petition Mr. Webster to change the dictionary and do away some unnecessary words by adding such words as bough (not like bow), grough, pough, mough, which all rhyme with enough! As in enough of this stough!


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I like the word slough


So do I, one of my two favorite aunts lives there!  But they rhyme the town's name with "now".


----------



## koolmnbv

I am skeered to post. I know I always have Grammar errors. I type to quick and seldom use spell check. I should start re-reading my posts before I click send.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

kool, don't worry about it. . . .in casual conversation -- and super quick typing -- it's not a big deal if there are a few flubs.  But what is annoying to many of us are what seem to be fairly obvious errors on written material that is for public consumption!  That just ain't right!


----------



## Meredith Sinclair

koolmnbv said:


> I am skeered to post. I know I always have Grammar errors. I type to quick and seldom use spell check. I should start re-reading my posts before I click send.


Heeeeey... did I already post THAT? no, that's right I was to a'skeered! I almost posted something to that effect.... or is it affect... on the Book Bazaar thread yesterday when Leslie was talking about using the word "ain't" because, there are so many writers on here, I actually considered not posting much anymore... felt like maybe my good ol' Southern chit-chat may not be GOOD enough to waste their time reading, with all the errors and improper English etc. I know HOW to say things differently, but thought it should be more like I am really talking to the other KBers because it felt like family... I did not post it though, because I was terrified! NOW I faced the fear and put it out there  we will see... 

PS... if nothing else Kool we can stick together and chit-chat late at night when everyone else signs off.


----------



## geoffthomas

Susan in VA said:


> So do I, one of my two favorite aunts lives there!  But they rhyme the town's name with "now".


Now how many people would have an aunt in Slough?
Not too far from Charing Cross, as I recall.
Lived 3 years in south London - little place called Dulwich.
Too cool.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> So do I, one of my two favorite aunts lives there!  But they rhyme the town's name with "now".


That's true, too. Wierd, wierd stuff, English and all its nuances. In the south, we call the back-up water from bayous 'sloughs' which rhymes with 'news'. (Incidentally, bayous is a word that I've heard pronounced in a variety of ways. Like 'By you' and 'By yo' and 'By oh'. Where I grew up we called the slough behind our house a 'slew' and the bayou from whence it came '_the_ by oh' like there was no other one in the world.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Meredith Sinclair said:


> Heeeeey... did I already post THAT? no, that's right I was to a'skeered! I almost posted something to that effect.... or is it affect... on the Book Bazaar thread yesterday when Leslie was talking about using the word "ain't" because, there are so many writers on here, I actually considered not posting much anymore... felt like maybe my good ol' Southern chit-chat may not be GOOD enough to waste their time reading, with all the errors and improper English etc. I know HOW to say things differently, but thought it should be more like I am really talking to the other KBers because it felt like family... I did not post it though, because I was terrified! NOW I faced the fear and put it out there  we will see...
> 
> PS... if nothing else Kool we can stick together and chit-chat late at night when everyone else signs off.


It's "to that effect" if you are curious. Just think "result" when you use "effect." This confuses a lot of us, including me. For example, you know that "It affects me deeply" is correct, because it could not "result me deeply"--that's crazy.

To complicate things still more: "Affect" has another meaning, often used in psychiatric circles: "Affect" may mean "emotion." For example: "She showed little affect, staring straight ahead."

Now, I think I am correct here. And I welcome the two cents of our resident grammarians who wish to add or detract.

I also note that we are having a sudden epidemic of timidity. Well, most writers are chronically unsure. And, speaking for myself, I don't seem to be able to spell anything. And, while my mind is gripped with concerns of plot or character or mood, I almost always write "too" instead of "to" and a multitude of other goofs.

But, you know, self-discipline is always good (An old-fashioned idea?). So--to me--striving for correctness brings a glow of gratification.

And yet--as Ann said above--no one should be afraid of posting here. A nicer bunch of folks you'll never find.


----------



## intinst

There may be some good natured teasing, but no one here really gives grief. (At least that has been my experience)


----------



## Sailor

koolmnbv said:


> I am skeered to post. I know I always have Grammar errors. I type to quick and seldom use spell check. I should start re-reading my posts before I click send.


Kool,

Ewe sound like me when eye right any thing. My grammar AND spelling is atrocious. Butt, I tend too not miss spell two many words, so its okay.

Whew, spell check says I have NO misspellings there! Woot-Woot!

Sailor


----------



## Susan in VA

geoffthomas said:


> Now how many people would have an aunt in Slough?
> Not too far from Charing Cross, as I recall.
> Lived 3 years in south London - little place called Dulwich.
> Too cool.


It is indeed! They lived in Maidenhead for years before that... originally from Newcastle, and the rest of the family is still up there (my dad's side).


----------



## Susan in VA

As Sig said, lots of people seem to be having attacks of timidity recently. Please, folks, don't let us nitpickers scare you off. For some of us, being nitpicky with the language is our job, and so we might be just a teensy weensy tiny bit more obsessive about it than most. That doesn't mean _you_ have to be.

Unless you're writing your resume, or some major presentation, or something meant for Serious Publication, that is. That's what a lot of this thread is about -- not the people who make mistakes when they're writing quickly (because everyone does that!), but the ones who don't care enough to get it right when it really counts.

So please, no shyness here!


----------



## Bren S.

I have always felt comfortable here,and welcomed here.I certainly wouldn't feel that way at all if I thought ANY of these posts were in regard to anyone on this board.

Life is far too short to nit pick over anyone's posts being "correctly" formatted or not.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## Bren S.

koolmnbv said:


> I am skeered to post. I know I always have Grammar errors. I type to quick and seldom use spell check. I should start re-reading my posts before I click send.


Don't be scared to post kool.This board is NOT about correct grammar last time I checked.

I make grammatical errors and such,and I know I do.
So what??


----------



## koolmnbv

I was totally teasing. I don't think anyone here is grammar police, if so I would have already been in jail  

I love posting here and have never had anyone say anything. If anything this thread could do nothing except help someone learn and correct some of the more common errors. 

I often do the there-their thing. I know the difference but for some reason I will switch them out sometimes. The too and to is another one I do. I try to always think 'too' is also but again I sometimes just type and don't pay any attention at all. 

If ever the day comes that I am ever truly scared to post something for fear of attack I will probably not be a member on this board anymore.


----------



## koolmnbv

Ann in Arlington said:


> kool, don't worry about it. . . .in casual conversation -- and super quick typing -- it's not a big deal if there are a few flubs. But what is annoying to many of us are what seem to be fairly obvious errors on written material that is for public consumption! That just ain't right!


Yes I agree. I don't mind errors on the board posts or in general but when it is someones JOB to have a correctly edited book or other written material it should be readable. Especially on the more obvious mistakes.

God love us all if I was ever an editor/writer. Everything would look and be written exactly how it sounds. Like when my little brother or sister used to bring home letters to my mom or dad. I used to love reading them, everything was written the way it sounds. It was cute on a 6 year old, not so much in a book.


----------



## Guest

sigrosenblum said:


> "This very instant" would be correct, both grammatically and professionally. Get to it, pal. There are too many diversions out there as it is.


The word "very" is one of my pet peeves. It goes all the way back to high school. I had an English teacher that would deduct points for using it. He said the word was a crutch for a poor vocabulary, and that 99% of the time there was a better way of saying something.

The funny thing is that, now that I run a publishing company and read submissions all day, I finally realized the point. Teen writers tend to use the word "very" a lot, as do people new to the craft. The more honed someone's writing style is, the less they use the word.


----------



## Susan in VA

bardsandsages said:


> The word "very" is one of my pet peeves. It goes all the way back to high school. I had an English teacher that would deduct points for using it. He said the word was a crutch for a poor vocabulary, and that 99% of the time there was a better way of saying something.
> 
> The funny thing is that, now that I run a publishing company and read submissions all day, I finally realized the point. Teen writers tend to use the word "very" a lot, as do people new to the craft. The more honed someone's writing style is, the less they use the word.


Guilty! (I think), and also of using "just" too often even though it's JUST a filler word that I use JUST to make a point and temper a statement that otherwise might sound JUST too blunt.

eta: but I think that "this very instant" is a perfectly acceptable use of "very" because it's an established idiomatic phrase, and in this case means something quite different from the usual "strengthening of the adjective which follows".


----------



## sigrosenblum

On TV tonight, Richard Clark, a former Security Adviser said, "What is the criteria...?" 

Is there a goof here? If so, what?


----------



## Susan in VA

should be "are"


----------



## Leslie

Susan in VA said:


> should be "are"


or criterion

either make the verb plural or the noun singular


----------



## sigrosenblum

Leslie said:


> or criterion
> 
> either make the verb plural or the noun singular


And the winners is Susan and Leslie!


----------



## Leslie

sigrosenblum said:


> And the winners is Susan and Leslie!


Thank you.

I spend way too much flipping time thinking about this stuff...LOL


----------



## sigrosenblum

Leslie said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I spend way too much flipping time thinking about this stuff...LOL


Me too. But what is one to do if one has word-a-diction? Don't answer. I'll understand.


----------



## sigrosenblum

A genuine peeve:

A well-known tennis commentator, in spite of gentle hints from his buddies: "He now plays aggressive."


----------



## Susan in VA

Sports commentators could fill a book of grammar pet peeves all by themselves, I think.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Sports commentators could fill a book of grammar pet peeves all by themselves, I think.


Just heard a reporter talking about Neverland and MJ. She said that there was a little private room where Michael liked to go in order to experience something called 'seclusiveness'. Hmmmm. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that's a real word, is it?  I love listening to the news sometimes just to hear things like this... especially when they are ad-libbing (saaaaaaaaaay, is that a word? ad-libbing?)


----------



## sigrosenblum

Just seen in the NY Times report of Governor Palin's announcement:

“We know we can affect positive change outside of government,” she said in making the announcement.

.......................

Anything wrong here, folks?


----------



## Meemo

sigrosenblum said:


> Just seen in the NY Times report of Governor Palin's announcement:
> 
> "We know we can affect positive change outside of government," she said in making the announcement.
> 
> .......................
> 
> Anything wrong here, folks?


Should be "effect" I'm thinking - although either could be correct depending on exactly what's meant. I'm guessing she meant "effect", though. Is this the Times report or is it directly from a press release?


----------



## Jeff

sigrosenblum said:


> Just seen in the NY Times report of Governor Palin's announcement:
> 
> "We know we can affect positive change outside of government," she said in making the announcement.
> 
> .......................
> 
> Anything wrong here, folks?


I don't see anything wrong. My understanding is that when you affect a situation you have an effect on it.

EDIT: CNN says: "We are not retreating, we are advancing in a different direction," Palin said. "We know we can *effect* positive change outside government at this moment in time."


----------



## sigrosenblum

Meemo said:


> Should be "effect" I'm thinking - although either could be correct depending on exactly what's meant. I'm guessing she meant "effect", though. Is this the Times report or is it directly from a press release?


My view: Only "effect" is correct. Our resident theoreticians will say exactly why. Later, I heard a snippet from the Governor herself, and it sounded like "effect." So my guess: It was the Times staffer who used the frequently misused word.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

The only way to be sure would be to see what she wrote originally. . .at least, assuming she wrote anything:  she seems to speak off the cuff a lot.  It could be a transcription error. . . . my understanding:  effect is a noun, affect is a verb in their most common usage.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> The only way to be sure would be to see what she wrote originally. . .at least, assuming she wrote anything: she seems to speak off the cuff a lot. It could be a transcription error. . . . my understanding: effect is a noun, affect is a verb in their most common usage.


I checked her official site and they give a statement. But not this one. Still, I did hear her on TV and would bet that she used the quite correct "effect."

As a noun: "It had this effect." As a verb: "To effect a resolution."


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

affect vs effect
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/affect-versus-effect.aspx


----------



## Aravis60

I love the Grammar Girl podcast.


----------



## Meemo

sigrosenblum said:


> My view: Only "effect" is correct. Our resident theoreticians will say exactly why. Later, I heard a snippet from the Governor herself, and it sounded like "effect." So my guess: It was the Times staffer who used the frequently misused word.


That was how I heard it as well, it definitely sounded like she said "effect". And looking at the definitions of affect & effect as verbs, I'd still think "effect" is the proper usage in this instance.


----------



## Meemo

Betsy the Quilter said:


> affect vs effect
> http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/affect-versus-effect.aspx


Yep, I was starting to wonder until I got towards the end...

_And, effect can be used as a verb that essentially means "to bring about," or "to accomplish." For example, you could say, "Aardvark hoped to effect change within the burrow."_


----------



## sigrosenblum

Jeff said:


> I don't see anything wrong. My understanding is that when you affect a situation you have an effect on it.
> 
> EDIT: CNN says: "We are not retreating, we are advancing in a different direction," Palin said. "We know we can *effect* positive change outside government at this moment in time."


Right, Jeff. Palin did say "effect." But the Times said "affect."


----------



## Guest

I just generally dislike it when people use "Texting" format in forums. 

Like: 

B4 (before)
TTYL (Talk to you later)
TY (Thank you)

etc.. etc.. etc...


----------



## geoffthomas

Well you are going to have some problems here at KB (KindleBoards) because we talk about our K2 (Kindle2) etc.
And we talk about our DW (Dear Wife) DD (Darling Daughter).
And we do a lot of ROTFL.

But I suspect you didn't really mean that sort of everyday abreviations......or did you?


----------



## Guest

geoffthomas said:


> Well you are going to have some problems here at KB (KindleBoards) because we talk about our K2 (Kindle2) etc.
> And we talk about our DW (Dear Wife) DD (Darling Daughter).
> And we do a lot of ROTFL.
> 
> But I suspect you didn't really mean that sort of everyday abreviations......or did you?


No, not the everyday stuff that is obvious. But I hate spending more time trying to figure out the abbreviations than reading the content..


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Check out http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,399.msg5006.html#msg5006 for some of the more common abbreviations used here. . . . (and elsewhere. . .)


----------



## Guest

Ann in Arlington said:


> Check out http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,399.msg5006.html#msg5006 for some of the more common abbreviations used here. . . . (and elsewhere. . .)


Thanks.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Here's an interesting--and authoritative--discussion on how to pronounce the name of the Russian President. Even articulate Obama stumbled a bit, but came close.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/2008/03/how_to_say_medvedev.shtml


----------



## Susan in VA

Interesting, thank you for posting that link.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Interesting, thank you for posting that link.


Spasiba, Susan.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Spasiba, Susan.


Puzhalsta, Sig.


----------



## sigrosenblum

I've been hearing this kind of thing on TV quite a bit:

"I was involved to no end."

"It was gratifying to me to no end."

What's right--or wrong--here?


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

There's 38 pages here!  
How can I go through all of it to see if you guys get an ear ache when President Obama says "a.." and then the next word begins with a vowel.
I s'pose you discussed this earlier, I just missed it....
Well, he seems to have said it several times in the last couple of days.
Not that I'm perfect - by any means......


----------



## sigrosenblum

Carol Hanrahan said:


> There's 38 pages here!
> How can I go through all of it to see if you guys get an ear ache when President Obama says "a.." and then the next word begins with a vowel.
> I s'pose you discussed this earlier, I just missed it....
> Well, he seems to have said it several times in the last couple of days.
> Not that I'm perfect - by any means......


I don't recall seeing this one. But this misuse of "a" and "an" is becoming quite common. It even appears frequently in the New York Times. It grates on my old-fashioned ear. But it seems to me that we are in for one of those shifts in language that will happen inevitably--whatever our habits, hates and hopes.


----------



## koolmnbv

I've never noticed Pres Obama doing it but I will watch more closely now. I have noticed this elsewhere and I always usually notice it. I agree it is becoming more commonly misused.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

I think the President is doing it because he is trying _not_ to articulate his pauses with "uh" or "um". So he begins a phrase, and then pauses, and then goes on and ends up with the article not agreeing with the noun that follows. I've only noticed it when he's speaking extemporaneously. . .never in prepared remarks.

At least he knows how to pronounce "nuclear". . .that always drove me nuts with both President Bush and President Carter. And Mr. Carter should have known better as he was a Nuclear Navy Officer!!!


----------



## koolmnbv

Ann in Arlington said:


> At least he knows how to pronounce "nuclear". . .that always drove me nuts with both President Bush and President Carter. And Mr. Carter should have known better as he was a Nuclear Navy Officer!!!


Was it mispronunciation or accent? Pres Bush and Pres Carter both has that accent so maybe that played a part.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Ann in Arlington said:


> At least he knows how to pronounce "nuclear". . .that always drove me nuts with both President Bush and President Carter. And Mr. Carter should have known better as he was a Nuclear Navy Officer!!!


The nuclear thing is a killer, Miss Ann. My good friend says it the same way Pres. Bush says it. (Living in the past here, afraid to face the future). 
Anyhoo I tried to _larn_ to say it right. New Clear. New Clear, I told him, but he always reverts. Agghhhhh!
But another one that grabs my attention is the mispronunciation of irrelevant as irrevelent. There are a few more like that. It seems to be a really hard thing to correct.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

koolmnbv said:


> Was it mispronunciation or accent? Pres Bush and Pres Carter both has that accent so maybe that played a part.


Nope, not accent. Pres. Bush lived about a hundred miles from me and most people say it New Clear even in Texas. It's just something they learned wrong and can't seem to shake.... IMHO. My dad can't say 'Chance'. No matter what, he says 'Chanch' and he says that was how everyone said it when he was a little boy. He's 80 years old. Got to respect his age.  And I can't seem to type at all this morning. Sorry for all the typos.


----------



## koolmnbv

I have a friend that always says the name "Delia" like Dee-lah instead of Deal-ee-ya. It has always drove me nuts, I ask her everytime why she says our other friends name that way and she says "thats just the way I learned it" but I think my ear would correct me but I guess that isn't how it works sometimes.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

It _is_ a mispronunciation. . . .but I have a feeling that it's a regional issue -- seems to crop up a whole lot more with speakers of the various southern dialects. Though I've heard it from northern '********' too!  I think it must be some quirk that gets ingrained at a young age and it's just really hard to reverse. "Jewelry" is another: it should be pronounced "jew - el - ry" but you hear "jew - ler - y" all the time. And folks who say it that way genuinely don't hear the difference.


----------



## patrisha w.

On the subject pf mispronunciations... My ex and my in-laws always said "heighth" with a /th/ sound at the end! It is a wonder my teeth weren't worn down with grinding... I kept wanting to say, "It is height, people! It ends with a T!"

Patrisha


----------



## crebel

Word choice can be as grating as poor grammar or mispronounciations.  There is a phrase that is becoming commonly used since it was blasted all over the news from a Senate hearing a year or two ago (someone used it in a recent book discussion thread) - "It requires a willing suspension of disbelief."  If you are suspending disbelief shouldn't that mean you believe it?  It is always used in the opposite context.  Thoughts?


----------



## NogDog

crebel said:


> Word choice can be as grating as poor grammar or mispronounciations. There is a phrase that is becoming commonly used since it was blasted all over the news from a Senate hearing a year or two ago (someone used it in a recent book discussion thread) - "It requires a willing suspension of disbelief." If you are suspending disbelief shouldn't that mean you believe it? It is always used in the opposite context. Thoughts?


I'm not familiar with the situation(s) to which you refer; do you have any specific examples? I've only heard the phrase used in the context of enjoying fiction, in particular fantasy and science fiction, where one may have to be willing to "believe" something one would not believe in real life in order to read (or watch) the story without one's disbelief getting in the way.


----------



## crebel

NogDog said:


> I'm not familiar with the situation(s) to which you refer; do you have any specific examples? I've only heard the phrase used in the context of enjoying fiction, in particular fantasy and science fiction, where one may have to be willing to "believe" something one would not believe in real life in order to read (or watch) the story without one's disbelief getting in the way.


Thanks NogDog, I now understand they are saying "I don't believe you and in order to do so, I must willingly suspend my disbelief - I'm not sure why it sounded so awkward and grating to me.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

crebel said:


> Word choice can be as grating as poor grammar or mispronounciations. There is a phrase that is becoming commonly used since it was blasted all over the news from a Senate hearing a year or two ago (someone used it in a recent book discussion thread) - "It requires a willing suspension of disbelief." If you are suspending disbelief shouldn't that mean you believe it? It is always used in the opposite context. Thoughts?


What about the way the word "Robust" has taken off since we all heard the military using it during the war when we were getting those 'briefings' everyday from the front? Now everything is 'Robust' as opposed to... to... "Un-robust"


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> I think the President is doing it because he is trying _not_ to articulate his pauses with "uh" or "um". So he begins a phrase, and then pauses, and then goes on and ends up with the article not agreeing with the noun that follows. I've only noticed it when he's speaking extemporaneously. . .never in prepared remarks.
> 
> At least he knows how to pronounce "nuclear". . .that always drove me nuts with both President Bush and President Carter. And Mr. Carter should have known better as he was a Nuclear Navy Officer!!!


I think you are right about Obama. I've noticed the same pattern. Still, I wish he wouldn't give aid and comfort to the grammatical "enemy"! Especially since he is so super-literate.

And the Bush "nucular" gaffe was maddening, indeed. But--surprisingly--President Eisenhower did the same. And any number of nuclear consultants and experts still insist on pronouncing it the same way. In time, it will probably be given as an acceptable alternate in the dictionary.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

The phrase "willing suspension of disbelief" was first used by Coleridge, "to justify the use of fantastic or non-realistic elements in literature. Coleridge suggested that if a writer could infuse a "human interest and a semblance of truth" into a fantastic tale, the reader would suspend judgment concerning the implausibility of the narrative." (that from Wikipedia describes it nicely, I think.)

In my opinion, the phrase makes no sense when you're talking about factual issues. . . .


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> And the Bush "nucular" gaffe was maddening, indeed. But--surprisingly--President Eisenhower did the same. And any number of nuclear consultants and experts still insist on pronouncing it the same way. In time, it will probably be given as an acceptable alternate in the dictionary.


Just like Feb-yoo-ary, you mean? 

And what about "drownded", for "drowned"? DD's dad says that, and it drives me nuts. Is that perhaps a Minnesota thing? He's careful about written language but sometimes sloppy in speech (except for the "nucular" thing, as an ex-nuclear-Navy guy), so I don't know whether it's just him or whether people drown differently in Minnesota.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Just like Feb-yoo-ary, you mean?
> 
> And what about "drownded", for "drowned"? DD's dad says that, and it drives me nuts. Is that perhaps a Minnesota thing? He's careful about written language but sometimes sloppy in speech (except for the "nucular" thing, as an ex-nuclear-Navy guy), so I don't know whether it's just him or whether people drown differently in Minnesota.


Now you're getting personal. I'm from Brooklyn. And Feb-u-ary is the norm. I don't know from "drownded." But my mother came from Trenton NJ and that white thing in the bathroom was a "terlet." Imagine "drownding in a terlet"!


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Now you're getting personal. I'm from Brooklyn. And Feb-u-ary is the norm.


Et tu, Sig? <sigh>


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Et tu, Sig? <sigh>


Sorry for the Brute-ality. But you may as well know the truth.


----------



## mlewis78

I don't think that febuary is the norm in Brooklyn. It was the norm when I was in kindergarten in New Jersey, because the kids hadn't learned yet how to say it properly. One of our teachers corrected it. Some of the kids also said drownded and were corrected.

Something that I hate to hear but is now apparently accepted usage is the phrase "speak to" as in "Now I will speak *to* the economic problem." It should be "speak *about* the economic problem. I've been hearing "speak to" for this for a number of years now. I started to notice it on talk radio in about 2004, but it's been around longer than that.

I'm beginning to tell myself to accept these things, but it sounds as if a lot of people in public life are saying this because they've heard it so many times. I'm becoming an old fuddy duddy.


----------



## mlewis78

Bush's "new-kew-lar" was pretty awful to my ears.  I think he must have heard that it was not correct, but to change it would have been to admit that he was wrong.  I also heard Carter and Eisenhower say it (only since I found out later and heard recordings), but the word didn't come up nearly as often as it did between 2001-2009.

I haven't heard the "a" that Obama says.  I will listen for it.  If I have heard it, I thought he was pausing . . . saying "ah" instead of "um".  I've heard many people say it when they were talking slowly and didn't have the noun in their head when they said "a".  Are you discussing a long a, or one that is similar to "ah"?


----------



## mlewis78

sigrosenblum said:


> Now you're getting personal. I'm from Brooklyn. And Feb-u-ary is the norm. I don't know from "drownded." But my mother came from Trenton NJ and that white thing in the bathroom was a "terlet." Imagine "drownding in a terlet"!


I used to listen to Walter Cronkite, but didn't realize he had problems with pronouncing February correctly. I've heard since his death, his producer went over it many times with him during January of each year. It's not easy to say it correctly, especially if it's said quickly.


----------



## mlewis78

marianner said:


> I'm a little surprised no one has yet mentioned my pet peeve, using loose instead of lose.


This is my pet peeve, and I see it all of the time now. I always feel the urge to say something, but I don't. Most people are seeing it and then using it incorrectly.


----------



## NogDog

mlewis78 said:


> I used to listen to Walter Cronkite, but didn't realize he had problems with pronouncing February correctly. I've heard since his death, his producer went over it many times with him during January of each year. It's not easy to say it correctly, especially if it's said quickly.


Most (all?) current dictionaries include *Feb*-yoo-air-ee as an acceptable pronunciation for "February." In fact, the Meriam-Webster on-line dictionary entry shows *Feb*-roo-air-ee as the _second_ pronunciation.  It states:



> *usage* Dissimilation may occur when a word contains two identical or closely related sounds, resulting in the change or loss of one of them. This happens regularly in February, which is more often pronounced \ˈfe-bə-ˌwer-ē\ than \ˈfe-brə-ˌwer-ē\, though all of these variants are in frequent use and widely accepted. The \y\ heard from many speakers is not an intrusion but rather a common pronunciation of the vowel u after a consonant, as in January and annual


----------



## Laurie

This is a long thread and I haven't read it all, so I don't know if this one has been mentioned yet. It drives me insane when people use the words "have" and "of" interchangeably. I am currently reading "One Second After" - a New York Times best seller. I'm only three chapters in and already I've found about a dozen cases of this. Here's a sampling of actual sentences from the book: 
"You should of stopped to get stitches." 
"Guess I'd of done the same thing if the roles were reversed." 
"You think they'd of seen this coming." 
This is a good story, but stuff like this kind of ruins it for me because I find it so annoying. Finding it once or twice I'd be okay with, but this book has it excessively. The author has a website and it's just as bad. Maybe worse. It's full of typos and wrong words. Check it out at www.onesecondafter.com. 
What makes this even more disgusting is that _*HE'S A TEACHER*_!!!!!!!!


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Well. . . .one thing with the 'have' vs. 'of' thing. . . .are you quoting dialog or narrative?  I can forgive usage like that in dialog because it can speak to who the character is.  But, I would agree that it has no place in narrative as it is not correct usage.


----------



## NogDog

Laurie said:


> This is a long thread and I haven't read it all, so I don't know if this one has been mentioned yet. It drives me insane when people use the words "have" and "of" interchangeably. I am currently reading "One Second After" - a New York Times best seller. I'm only three chapters in and already I've found about a dozen cases of this. Here's a sampling of actual sentences from the book:
> "You should of stopped to get stitches."
> "Guess I'd of done the same thing if the roles were reversed."
> "You think they'd of seen this coming."
> This is a good story, but stuff like this kind of ruins it for me because I find it so annoying. Finding it once or twice I'd be okay with, but this book has it excessively. The author has a website and it's just as bad. Maybe worse. It's full of typos and wrong words. Check it out at www.onesecondafter.com.
> What makes this even more disgusting is that _*HE'S A TEACHER*_!!!!!!!!


Looks as if he is phonetically writing what are actually intended to be contractions: "should've", "I'd've", "they'd've", etc. Oh well...


----------



## sigrosenblum

mlewis78 said:


> I don't think that febuary is the norm in Brooklyn. It was the norm when I was in kindergarten in New Jersey, because the kids hadn't learned yet how to say it properly. One of our teachers corrected it. Some of the kids also said drownded and were corrected.
> 
> Something that I hate to hear but is now apparently accepted usage is the phrase "speak to" as in "Now I will speak *to* the economic problem." It should be "speak *about* the economic problem. I've been hearing "speak to" for this for a number of years now. I started to notice it on talk radio in about 2004, but it's been around longer than that.
> 
> I'm beginning to tell myself to accept these things, but it sounds as if a lot of people in public life are saying this because they've heard it so many times. I'm becoming an old fuddy duddy.


Glad to hear that your Feb. training was better than mine. But I--who am super-sensitive about language--was never bothered about "speak to." Funny how certain things rankle and others don't.


----------



## harfner

Misusing the word "unique" bugs me. Something is either unique or it isn't. So you can't have "pretty unique" or "very unique" or "kinda unique." No, unique means only one of it exists.

But that pales next to cloying, annoying, deploring misuse of the the word "literally."

"I was literally terrified my boss was gonna go for my throat, you know?" (So your boss is a vampire?)

"I literally _died_ when I got the news." (Then how are you here to tell to me about it?)

"We spent literally three days in line. It was awful. I was literally ready to gnaw my leg off to escape." (I'll fetch a bone saw, if it'll help.)

"Literally" means "word for word" or "in truth." It's meant to alert the reader or listener that you are NOT using metaphor, hyperbole, or simile, but somewhere along the way, a handful of people decided that it can be used to add emphasis to any of the above.

The overall effect is that anyone who uses the word "literally" for its true function isn't believed:

"I mean, the accident literally crushed my car into a cube. I was literally pried out by the paramedics."

"Uh huh. Was it really bad?"

"Dude! I just =said= they literally had to pry me out. I was literally bleeding to death."

"So you probably had a few stitches, huh? Bummer."


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

mlewis78 said:


> I haven't heard the "a" that Obama says. I will listen for it. If I have heard it, I thought he was pausing . . . saying "ah" instead of "um". I've heard many people say it when they were talking slowly and didn't have the noun in their head when they said "a". Are you discussing a long a, or one that is similar to "ah"?


The "a" is the long a. He usually pauses between the "a" and the next word which begins with the vowel, so maybe he hasn't decided on the next word. But the other day when he said it, it seemed so obvious. I do agree that he probably only does it when speaking informally, not in a speech. Then again, I think I'll listen more closely next time!


----------



## Laurie

Ann in Arlington said:


> Well. . . .one thing with the 'have' vs. 'of' thing. . . .are you quoting dialog or narrative? I can forgive usage like that in dialog because it can speak to who the character is. But, I would agree that it has no place in narrative as it is not correct usage.


Without backtracking through the book, I'm pretty sure it was used randomly - dialog and narrative. If you look at his website you'll see he doesn't do well with grammar or spelling. Not everybody does, I understand that. But: 
1.) He's a teacher. College. That scares me. Doesn't matter that he isn't teaching English (thank God!) - he should still be setting an example for his students. Nothing worse than a teacher looking ignorant.
2.)He has a book on the NY Times best sellers list - you'd think he'd have at least run it throug MS Word for a spelling and grammar check.


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

The spelling check wouldn't catch it.  Maybe the grammar check, I'm not sure.  But yes, it is sad that a college professor would be making these kinds of mistakes.


----------



## mlewis78

sigrosenblum said:


> Glad to hear that your Feb. training was better than mine. But I--who am super-sensitive about language--was never bothered about "speak to." Funny how certain things rankle and others don't.


Apparently the "speak to" expression doesn't bother most people. It's being used more and more and is _probably _by now considered acceptable. I had not heard it until some time in this century -- first took note of it in 2004. What happened to the word "about"? or "regarding"? You speak to a person or animal, not to an idea.


----------



## Laurie

Carol Hanrahan said:


> The spelling check wouldn't catch it. Maybe the grammar check, I'm not sure. But yes, it is sad that a college professor would be making these kinds of mistakes.


I did say spelling _and grammar _ check 
We had a teacher at my daughter's school who was even worse. He taught physics and he was very hard on the kids with what he expected from them, but he didn't hold himself to the same set of standards when it came to a subject he wasn't strong in. On the first day of class he sent the students home with a two-page summary of what he demanded, and it was written at the level of a third grader. I am NOT kidding. I think the final line on the paper said something like "I expect you to due your best." Due? When is their best due? I'm not a grammar and spelling queen, but this was SOOOOOO bad. I think I still have a copy of it somewhere; I'll have to see if I can dig it up. I did bring a copy of it to the school principal and expressed my disgust. I can't imagine how this guy even filled out a job application without looking like a moron.


----------



## geoffthomas

crebel said:


> Word choice can be as grating as poor grammar or mispronounciations. There is a phrase that is becoming commonly used since it was blasted all over the news from a Senate hearing a year or two ago (someone used it in a recent book discussion thread) - "It requires a willing suspension of disbelief." If you are suspending disbelief shouldn't that mean you believe it? It is always used in the opposite context. Thoughts?


I think that Ann covered this completely. But I just wanted to stick in my two cents. I have used this expression. And never in relation to facts. I have always used in when referring to allowing an author to present a scenario that cannot be rationalized. So I suspend my disbelief to enable myself to read the material (usually fantasy) without constantly saying: "that could never happen".

Just sayin.....


----------



## sigrosenblum

mlewis78 said:


> Apparently the "speak to" expression doesn't bother most people. It's being used more and more and is _probably _by now considered acceptable. I had not heard it until some time in this century -- first took note of it in 2004. What happened to the word "about"? or "regarding"? You speak to a person or animal, not to an idea.


My hunch is that this may have started out as "a term of art"--perhaps from the legal profession. I've tried to track that down, but can't find anything on the point.

However, the lawyers have all sorts of time-honored formulations: "Cast your mind back to that April day, if you will." "Tell the court--in your own words--what the accused said to you, just before he pulled the trigger."


----------



## NogDog

I don't know if this has come up here yet, but how about, "I could care less," when one really means, "I could *not* [or _couldn't_] care less."

Or how about:


Code:


   "Do you mind if I join you?"
   "Yes, please do."
   [First speaker, being relatively literate, stands there in a state of confusion.]


----------



## sigrosenblum

NogDog said:


> I don't know if this has come up here yet, but how about, "I could care less," when one really means, "I could *not* [or _couldn't_] care less."
> 
> Or how about:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> "Do you mind if I join you?"
> "Yes, please do."
> [First speaker, being relatively literate, stands there in a state of confusion.]


I think that the first one has been noted. It is certainly one of my own pet peeves. As for the second--well, I take this with a grain of grammatical salt--and understand what the speaker meant.


----------



## intinst

I posted this in another thread, but thought it might go here as well.

Owed Two A Spell Chequer:

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.


----------



## sigrosenblum

intinst said:


> I posted this in another thread, but thought it might go here as well.
> 
> Owed Two A Spell Chequer:
> 
> Eye halve a spelling chequer
> It came with my pea sea
> It plainly marques four my revue
> Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
> 
> Eye strike a key and type a word
> And weight four it two say
> Weather eye am wrong oar write
> It shows me strait a weigh.
> As soon as a mist ache is maid
> It nose bee fore two long
> And eye can put the error rite
> Its rare lea ever wrong.
> 
> Eye have run this poem threw it
> I am shore your pleased two no
> Its letter perfect awl the weigh
> My chequer tolled me sew.


Your owed gave awl a laugh to knight,
We're grate full for the post.
And when you spelled, you did it rite--
Much better, friend, then most!


----------



## Brenda Carroll

intinst said:


> I posted this in another thread, but thought it might go here as well.
> 
> Owed Two A Spell Chequer:


This was my point exactly. I am always amused when a reviewer suggests that authors run their work through a simple "spiel check her". It's not that easy, is it? If only it were.


----------



## Hopeful76

I haven't read every single post in this thread, but I've read a lot of them, and I don't have one specific grammar pet peeve.  

My general grammar pet peeve is: I teach juniors and seniors in college and their grammar and spelling are really awful for people that far along in their education.  They also use abbreviations like they're text messaging in their assignments, e.g. L8R, BTW, B4, etc.

I'm not an English professor, but still, they're juniors and seniors in college so I expect decent grammar and spelling.


----------



## mlewis78

Brendan Carroll said:


> This was my point exactly. I am always amused when a reviewer suggests that authors run their work through a simple "spiel check her". It's not that easy, is it? If only it were.


Guess that's why proofreading is so important. If you find one error that may have been repeated, you can find out by searching for that error (in Word, do a search and replace, but stop on each one). I'm sure that all you authors do this, and I've done it a lot in legal word processing work.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

mlewis78 said:


> Guess that's why proofreading is so important. If you find one error that may have been repeated, you can find out by searching for that error (in Word, do a search and replace, but stop on each one). I'm sure that all you authors do this, and I've done it a lot in legal word processing work.


You're so right. I don't know what I'd do without the find and replace feature in Word. Sometimes I find myself suddenly mispelling something or some name that I've used millions of times and then bam! Brain fart! And when I do a search and replace it reports that the item has been replaced 68 times!!


----------



## sigrosenblum

In a recent broadcast, Robert Osborne, the host of TCM said: "I stayed with she and her family."

Anything wrong there?


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> In a recent broadcast, Robert Osborne, the host of TCM said: "I stayed with she and her family."
> 
> Anything wrong there?


You keep posting these and I'm going to be bald from tearing out my hair one peeve at a time.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> You keep posting these and I'm going to be bald from tearing out my hair one peeve at a time.


And I thought I was showing restraint by letting so many go by.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> And I thought I was showing restraint by letting so many go by.


<sigh> Sad, isn't it.

Question for you: 
When I brew tea, I have tea.  
When I put that beverage in the fridge, it becomes chilled tea, or iced tea. 
Why do many, many people call it "ice tea"? Is that right, wrong, regional, or just careless?

(For those of you who are thinking _I can't believe she actually cares about whether the word has a D or not_: Go read intinst's posts on the Infinity thread instead, it's fun and doesn't feature grumpy grammarians. )


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> <sigh> Sad, isn't it.
> 
> (For those of you who are thinking _I can't believe she actually cares about whether the word has a D or not_: Go read intinst's posts on the Infinity thread instead, it's fun and doesn't feature grumpy grammarians. )


I say, I say, there, Miss ah, Miss ah, Miss ah, Susan. Let ol' Foghorn Leghorn answer that little ole question for you, my sweet little lady. Now whether or not the 'd' is necess, necess, I say, necessary, is of no conse, conse, I say consequence because the point being, I mean to say, the point is that, if you want your tea cold, then it would behoove, I say behoove you to ask Miss Prissy's boy, Junior, if the fastest way to cool down a hot cup of tea is not with just plain ice without the 'D'.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I say, I say, there, Miss ah, Miss ah, Miss ah, Susan. Let ol' Foghorn Leghorn answer that little ole question for you, my sweet little lady. Now whether or not the 'd' is necess, necess, I say, necessary, is of no conse, conse, I say consequence because the point being, I mean to say, the point is that, if you want your tea cold, then it would behoove, I say behoove you to ask Miss Prissy's boy, Junior, if the fastest way to cool down a hot cup of tea is not with just plain ice without the 'D'.


LOL! (and hoping I didn't just wake DD with that)

But you see, I don't actually put _ice_ in my tea. It waters it down. I just chill it. It then becomes chillED. ChillED tea. Not chill tea. ("How do you plead?" "Not chilltea!")


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> <sigh> Sad, isn't it.
> 
> Question for you:
> When I brew tea, I have tea.
> When I put that beverage in the fridge, it becomes chilled tea, or iced tea.
> Why do many, many people call it "ice tea"? Is that right, wrong, regional, or just careless?
> 
> (For those of you who are thinking _I can't believe she actually cares about whether the word has a D or not_: Go read intinst's posts on the Infinity thread instead, it's fun and doesn't feature grumpy grammarians. )


It may be a matter of mere muscular laziness. Many of our pronunciations are conditioned by how easy or difficult the word is. It takes a bit more effort to vocalize the "d." Hence: "ice tea."

That's the way most of us in the NY area say it. Looking at it coldly (!) "iced" does seem more correct. But I'm sure that the correct way will not be adopted.

The Southern "y'all" in place of "you all" comes to mind as another example. From Brooklyn (my hometown) comes "cherce" instead of "choice."

There may be a more scientific explanation. I hope some of our linguistic pros will offer theirs.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> LOL! (and hoping I didn't just wake DD with that)
> 
> But you see, I don't actually put _ice_ in my tea. It waters it down. I just chill it. It then becomes chillED. ChillED tea. Not chill tea. ("How do you plead?" "Not chilltea!")


Weeelllll, you got me there. ChillED Tea. Hmmmm. In the south, we make very strong tea, very sweet and then put the ice in the glass and pour the tea on the ice and even though the ice melts, the tea is not waterED down. Unless you are talking Long Island Tea...

Seriously, I think the 'd' in iced tea has just become absorbed by the 't' sound in tea.


----------



## Meemo

sigrosenblum said:


> It may be a matter of mere muscular laziness. Many of our pronunciations are conditioned by how easy or difficult the word is. It takes a bit more effort to vocalize the "d." Hence: "ice tea."
> 
> That's the way most of us in the NY area say it. Looking at it coldly (!) "iced" does seem more correct. But I'm sure that the correct way will not be adopted.
> 
> The Southern "y'all" in place of "you all" comes to mind as another example. From Brooklyn (my hometown) comes "cherce" instead of "choice."
> 
> There may be a more scientific explanation. I hope some of our linguistic pros will offer theirs.


I suspect you're right Sig - written, it's iced tea. But honestly who wants to precisely say iceD tea - it just doesn't roll off the tongue. Especially here in the South where we say it so often!
As far as Robert Osbourne's comment - did your head explode when you heard that?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Meemo said:


> I suspect you're right Sig - written, it's iced tea. But honestly who wants to precisely say iceD tea - it just doesn't roll off the tongue. Especially here in the South where we say it so often!
> As far as Robert Osbourne's comment - did your head explode when you heard that?


I was stunned. Osborne is quite articulate and a writer, as well--if we believe what he says--and I do. I explain (and forgive) his gaffe by pointing out that he said this in animated conversation with a guest, and not as part of a prepared script. I would make even more mistakes!


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> It may be a matter of mere muscular laziness. Many of our pronunciations are conditioned by how easy or difficult the word is. It takes a bit more effort to vocalize the "d." Hence: "ice tea."


That makes sense. And then people get used to saying that, and start writing it as well. (Doesn't mean I _like _it, but it makes sense.)



sigrosenblum said:


> From Brooklyn (my hometown) comes "cherce" instead of "choice."


Now _that_ I don't get. How is "cherce" easier to say than "choice"?? (Though I do recall a girl in high school who persisted in calling a classmate named Joyce "Jorce". )


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> Seriously, I think the 'd' in iced tea has just become absorbed by the 't' sound in tea.


Guess so.

But about that "sweet" business... since you brought it up.... Having just recently driven through a very small portion of the South, I am baffled that in some venues there was ONLY sweet tea available! And when I said I wanted mine unsweetened, they offered me artificially sweetened tea, thinking that it was a health/calorie concern.  Don't at least SOME Southerners prefer UNsweetened tea??


----------



## Meemo

Susan in VA said:


> Guess so.
> 
> But about that "sweet" business... since you brought it up.... Having just recently driven through a very small portion of the South, I am baffled that in some venues there was ONLY sweet tea available! And when I said I wanted mine unsweetened, they offered me artificially sweetened tea, thinking that it was a health/calorie concern.  Don't at least SOME Southerners prefer UNsweetened tea??


LOL - not so much! I was born & raised in Georgia, but I'm not a big fan of "sweet tea" - it's too sweet for me. Well, I do like it with barbecue, but that's about the only time I drink it. I used to make it for my husband all the time but never drank it myself. I rarely make if for him since he had two bouts of kidney stones. I don't like it unsweetened either, though - I grew up drinking iced tea sweetened with just a little saccharin. I think most of us want at least a little sweet in our tea.
Oh, and I never drank hot tea until we were stationed in Europe and the coffee was too strong for me.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> That makes sense. And then people get used to saying that, and start writing it as well. (Doesn't mean I _like _it, but it makes sense.)
> 
> Now _that_ I don't get. How is "cherce" easier to say than "choice"?? (Though I do recall a girl in high school who persisted in calling a classmate named Joyce "Jorce". )


Well, If you will slowly say "choice," you will see that your lips have to purse or move forward when you sound the "oi." But with "cherce," the "er sound allows your lips to be a bit further back. They more easily slide right to the "c."

All this is easier to demonstrate than explain. But if you do it, you will see that there is a very slight saving of motion and energy when you say "cher" instead of "choi." That difference is enough to favor Brooklynese over the more correct form.

In another post, I mentioned my mother's use of the "er" instead of "oi" in the word "toilet." In her Trentonesque version, it became "terlet." Although other Trentonites were spared, apparently.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Well, If you will slowly say "choice," you will see that your lips have to purse or move forward when you sound the "oi." But with "cherce," the "er sound allows your lips to be a bit further back. They more easily slide right to the "c."
> 
> All this is easier to demonstrate than explain.


Oh yeah, I can just see us sitting in some New York cafe demonstrating the relative ease of pursing lips or moving them back. Just think of the amused crowd _that _would draw. 



sigrosenblum said:


> there is a very slight saving of motion and energy when you say "cher" instead of "choi." That difference is enough to favor Brooklynese over the more correct form.


Talk about lazy....


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> Oh yeah, I can just see us sitting in some New York cafe demonstrating the relative ease of pursing lips or moving them back. Just think of the amused crowd _that _would draw.
> 
> Talk about lazy....


"Lazy" offers the perfect transition: Must hit the hay to be up early for a computer guru who is doubling my memory. Much to my distress, it is only the computer's memory, not mine.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> Much to my distress, it is only the computer's memory, not mine.


----------



## mlewis78

Sig, don't make us New Yorkers look bad.  I don't say cherce or terlet, but I had a neighbor (when we were kids) who said "terlet".  She got that from her Irish great-grandmother.

I don't like chilled tea without ice.  The tea should be strong enough that it doesn't matter how much ice is in it.  Southerners make the best iced tea, but we don't have that up here.  I need at least some lemon in it.  Cold water is better than plain iced tea.


----------



## Aravis60

mlewis78 said:


> Sig, don't make us New Yorkers look bad. I don't say cherce or terlet, but I had a neighbor (when we were kids) who said "terlet". She got that from her Irish great-grandmother.
> 
> I don't like chilled tea without ice. The tea should be strong enough that it doesn't matter how much ice is in it. Southerners make the best iced tea, but we don't have that up here. I need at least some lemon in it. Cold water is better than plain iced tea.


There are several people that I know in Ohio who say "terlet". It drives me crazy!


----------



## intinst

Susan in VA said:


> <sigh> Sad, isn't it.
> 
> Question for you:
> When I brew tea, I have tea.
> When I put that beverage in the fridge, it becomes chilled tea, or iced tea.
> Why do many, many people call it "ice tea"? Is that right, wrong, regional, or just careless?
> 
> (For those of you who are thinking _I can't believe she actually cares about whether the word has a D or not_: Go read intinst's posts on the Infinity thread instead, it's fun and doesn't feature grumpy grammarians. )


Or anthing near good grammar


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Guess so.
> 
> But about that "sweet" business... since you brought it up.... Having just recently driven through a very small portion of the South, I am baffled that in some venues there was ONLY sweet tea available! And when I said I wanted mine unsweetened, they offered me artificially sweetened tea, thinking that it was a health/calorie concern.  Don't at least SOME Southerners prefer UNsweetened tea??


Well, we just like to be sweet down here, ya'll. Is that so bad?


----------



## Laurie

Here's a sentence from a book I'm reading:

_Eric was a small African-American boy with short curly hair about Mike's age._

Is it just me, or....


----------



## Ann in Arlington

his hair was Mike's age.  No idea how old he was.


----------



## sigrosenblum

mlewis78 said:


> Sig, don't make us New Yorkers look bad. I don't say cherce or terlet, but I had a neighbor (when we were kids) who said "terlet". She got that from her Irish great-grandmother.
> 
> I don't like chilled tea without ice. The tea should be strong enough that it doesn't matter how much ice is in it. Southerners make the best iced tea, but we don't have that up here. I need at least some lemon in it. Cold water is better than plain iced tea.


 Of course, I don't mean to malign other New Yorkers. After all, I don't speak Brooklynese either.

Re tea: My wife loves it with lemon. Funny, though I like lemon (and salt) on melon, I find it decidedly anti-tea. There's no accounting...


----------



## Susan in VA

intinst said:


> Or anthing near good grammar


But great jokes!


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> Well, we just like to be sweet down here, ya'll. Is that so bad?


As long as the famed Southern hospitality extends to offering a non-Southerner something non-sweet... please?


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> I like lemon (and salt) on melon,


My first thought when I read that was _salt on melon?? ewww._... and then I realized that I love prosciutto wrapped around melon slices, and _that's_ pretty salty, so I guess it works! Gotta try it with just the salt sometime...


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> As long as the famed Southern hospitality extends to offering a non-Southerner something non-sweet... please?


How about dill pickle slices, battered and deep fried?


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> How about dill pickle slices, battered and deep fried?


Are you serious?  <backing away nervously>


----------



## Meemo

Brendan Carroll said:


> How about dill pickle slices, battered and deep fried?


Oh yum! Sonic Drive-Ins used to have those on the menu...
Found out recently that I really like peanut butter & dill pickles - on crackers or sandwiches. Didn't need to know that.....


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Are you serious?  <backing away nervously>


Quite, serious, young missy. I like them with my grog.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> Quite, serious, young missy. I like them with my grog.


It must be one of those Southern things....


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> It must be one of those Southern things....


Yeppers, if we can't throw sugar on it, we deep fry it with plenty of batter. Sometimes both. We like fried apples, too.


----------



## Susan in VA

I fry apples (or at least lightly saute them) before putting them in an apple pie....  does that count?


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> I fry apples (or at least lightly saute them) before putting them in an apple pie.... does that count?


It could very well be an exception in your case. Have you ever ate at Cracker Barrell? They have yummy fried apples and they have them fixed up in jars to go.... oh, I'm getting hungry again! Dagnabbit! I'll have to go fry a Twinkie or something.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> Have you ever ate at Cracker Barrell?


Only once, and it was memorably bad food, though I couldn't tell you anymore _what_ it was. Of course it was one just off the highway, with the guests all drivers just passing through, so maybe that particular location wasn't trying very hard.

I'm getting hungry too, but in my case that's probably more because I resolved that as of today I would only consume healthy snacks for a while, in order to shed the extra avoirdupois acquired on the Florida trip.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Only once, and it was memorably bad food, though I couldn't tell you anymore _what_ it was. Of course it was one just off the highway, with the guests all drivers just passing through, so maybe that particular location wasn't trying very hard.
> 
> I'm getting hungry too, but in my case that's probably more because I resolved that as of today I would only consume healthy snacks for a while, in order to shed the extra avoirdupois acquired on the Florida trip.


I hope it was only a fluke because I love Cracker Barrell, especially the Buttermilk Fried Chicken and Hashbrown Casserole... mmmm. I'm starving now.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I hope it was only a fluke because I love Cracker Barrell, especially the Buttermilk Fried Chicken and Hashbrown Casserole... mmmm. I'm starving now.


OK, on your recommendation, I'll go there again and order that meal. If I don't like it I'll send the leftovers to your pet dragon.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> OK, on your recommendation, I'll go there again and order that meal. If I don't like it I'll send the leftovers to your pet dragon.


Deal, but check out what day they have it. It's a special one day a week. Sundays, I think. I hope they do right by you. I also like their catfish (fried of course!) That's me. Southern Fried. 
OT: I do hate it when people when people say "I'm stressed out." This would imply that there would be a state of "stressed in"?


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> OT: I do hate it when people when people say "I'm stressed out." This would imply that there would be a state of "stressed in"?


Hmmm, good point. I'm trying to think of a plausible definition for "stressed in". (Unsuccessfully.)


----------



## mlewis78

Interesting that it always ends up being about food, even in the Grammar Pet Peeves thread.  LOL.  I just came here from the county fairs and current snackage threads.


----------



## Susan in VA

mlewis78 said:


> Interesting that it always ends up being about food, even in the Grammar Pet Peeves thread. LOL. I just came here from the county fairs and current snackage threads.


Ah, but have you found the one about dragon food??


----------



## Meemo

Brendan Carroll said:


> I hope it was only a fluke because I love Cracker Barrell, especially the Buttermilk Fried Chicken and Hashbrown Casserole... mmmm. I'm starving now.


I almost always get breakfast at Cracker Barrel, no matter what time of day it is. Come to think of it, it's been awhile.....


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> My first thought when I read that was _salt on melon?? ewww._... and then I realized that I love prosciutto wrapped around melon slices, and _that's_ pretty salty, so I guess it works! Gotta try it with just the salt sometime...


You should. Brings out the taste. Deelish!


----------



## intinst

Posted in another thread but thought it might work here as well.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Shows the creativity of the feminine mystique. The female principle is, of course, the _mother_ of all invention and thereby the means by which all things are created in thought, word and deed. We of the male persuasion are simply allowed to borrow a little creativity from that principle from time to time, some of us borrow more than others!!  Perhaps even more than we need or eventually want, but what the heck? Mars needs love, too.


----------



## sigrosenblum

What's wrong with this headline from today's New York Times?

*U.S. CUTS LESS JOBS THAN FORECAST
*
Here's the link to the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/08/08/business/business-uk-usa-economy-payrolls.html


----------



## Brenda Carroll

sigrosenblum said:


> What's wrong with this headline from today's New York Times?
> 
> *U.S. CUTS LESS JOBS THAN FORECAST
> *
> Here's the link to the article:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/08/08/business/business-uk-usa-economy-payrolls.html


I'm guessing: replace _less_ with _fewer_?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Brendan Carroll said:


> I'm guessing: replace _less_ with _fewer_?


Brendan:

Right you are. And if you see the story, the actual writer doesn't make this mistake. The goof is from the headline writer at the Times.

The "less/fewer" confusion seems to be proliferating--particularly on TV. Some will say that this reflects the ongoing debasement of our language. Others will note that language is a living--and impressively democratic--thing.

If enough people vote for--or against--a form, it lives or dies. And there may be no reprieve. Consider "forsooth," "Yr obedient servant," "23 skidoo," et al. Al is still here.

If you want my personal, prejudiced, old-fashioned take on the argument, the less trendy change there is, the fewer alterations, the happier I am. My bad.

Sig


----------



## Brenda Carroll

I really didn't know the rule, if there was one for the less/fewer thing, but I just knew it sounded better the other way.  I like words, myself and I like language and the strange evolution that is taking place in front of our ears and eyes.  I once read an entertaining book about the evolution of English, but I can't remember the name of it now.  I believe that we've lost a great deal of expression and color since Chaucer's days and I do use some archaic expression and defunct terminology in the dialog betwixt me knights because most of them are exremely olde and long in the tooth.  It would only stand to reason that their speech patterns would be somewhat eclectic, but I have to fight with readers/fans/critics about using words such as forthwith, verily, behold, by and by, etceteras.  I saw a movie not long ago wherein the language of the 'foreigners' was Latin and I was thrilled to hear the actors speaking Latin, but of course I didn't know if they were pronouncing it or using it correctly because I'm no Latin scholar.  But hey!  I like Klingon... so what do I know?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Brendan Carroll said:


> I really didn't know the rule, if there was one for the less/fewer thing, but I just knew it sounded better the other way. I like words, myself and I like language and the strange evolution that is taking place in front of our ears and eyes. I once read an entertaining book about the evolution of English, but I can't remember the name of it now. I believe that we've lost a great deal of expression and color since Chaucer's days and I do use some archaic expression and defunct terminology in the dialog betwixt me knights because most of them are exremely olde and long in the tooth. It would only stand to reason that their speech patterns would be somewhat eclectic, but I have to fight with readers/fans/critics about using words such as forthwith, verily, behold, by and by, etceteras. I saw a movie not long ago wherein the language of the 'foreigners' was Latin and I was thrilled to hear the actors speaking Latin, but of course I didn't know if they were pronouncing it or using it correctly because I'm no Latin scholar. But hey! I like Klingon... so what do I know?


To me, it sounds quite right that knights should sound knightly in their speech. Your critics should see the movie, "The Adventures of Robin Hood" with Errol Flynn to be convinced. As I recall, the language was appropriate to the times--as it should be. The opposite--comic--effect was produced by Mel Brooks in his "History of the World" where everyone spoke today's slang.


----------



## F1Wild

I find this thread truly fascinating, especially since my husband is from the UK (N. Ireland).  He is constantly after my "Americanized" English, but then he pipes in with his Irish slang and it all equals out.

Big pet peeve is when someone substitutes then for than or vice-versa.

Even bigger grammar pet peeve is when reading a Kindle book and finding several spelling errors!!!  I am assuming (ass-u-me) there are people in the publishing end of these books who actually look for spelling and grammar errors.  Am I right?


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I really didn't know the rule, if there was one for the less/fewer thing


But your language instinct didn't lead you wrong. And it's an easy rule to remember -- it's just like _much_ and _many_. One is for things that are just a quantity, one is for things that can be counted.

(I'm sure there's a way to explain it using formal grammatical terms but somebody else will have to do that.)


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> The opposite--comic--effect was produced by Mel Brooks in his "History of the World" where everyone spoke today's slang.


I wonder if I was the only person who really thought he was going to make a Part Two of that... I wish he had!


----------



## Susan in VA

F1Wild said:


> Even bigger grammar pet peeve is when reading a Kindle book and finding several spelling errors!!! I am assuming (ass-u-me) there are people in the publishing end of these books who actually look for spelling and grammar errors. Am I right?


I'm sure they _look_ for them....


----------



## F1Wild

Susan in VA said:


> I'm sure they _look_ for them....


They seem to miss too many. Every time I read a passage and it has an obvious spelling error it takes me away for a moment, interrupting the flow.


----------



## Susan in VA

F1Wild said:


> They seem to miss too many.


That was my point. I can _sort of_ understand it with older books that have been scanned, especially the ones that are offered for free. The errors there come from the OCR software, and someone has to take the time to go through all of it again just to fix what the software didn't recognize. But for newer works that already exist in digital form, there's just no excuse for the number of errors in some of the books. I don't mean the "artistic license" kind of thing where someone could quibble over what was intended, I mean the actual typos, spelling errors, grammar errors, and misuse of words. Each one breaks the flow of reading, and if that happens more than once per page, it ruins the reading experience for me.

Oops, I'd better get off my soapbox here. Sorry....


----------



## F1Wild

Susan in VA said:


> That was my point. I can _sort of_ understand it with older books that have been scanned, especially the ones that are offered for free...
> Oops, I'd better get off my soapbox here. Sorry....


Okay, you do gt it. I thought may have been as bad at grammar in my complaint and just didn't notice it. I just finished reading a book, by a Kindle Board member and found several errors, especially towards the end of the book. It seemed that they had been spell-checked digitally and the word was perceived to be another. What I mean is that the word was misspelled, but into a different (correctly spelled) word. Does this even make sense?


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> I wonder if I was the only person who really thought he was going to make a Part Two of that... I wish he had!


I wished very many that he would make a part too also two. LOL. God save us all from speeling errs! Ha! Ha!  I really love Mel Brooks stuff. My favorite was "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum"... hey, was that Mel Brooks or someone else? It has been so long since I saw it... I forgot...


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> I wonder if I was the only person who really thought he was going to make a Part Two of that... I wish he had!


There are a lot of theories:

1. Just Mel's little joke.
2. He was tired of hearing "What are you working on now?" So when he announced Part II, they didn't ask.
3. He finally decided to do it, earlier this year. (But I don't believe it for a second (!).)

Take your pick.

Sig


----------



## Susan in VA

F1Wild said:


> Okay, you do gt it. I thought may have been as bad at grammar in my complaint and just didn't notice it. I just finished reading a book, by a Kindle Board member and found several errors, especially towards the end of the book. It seemed that they had been spell-checked digitally and the word was perceived to be another. What I mean is that the word was misspelled, but into a different (correctly spelled) word. Does this even make sense?


Sure it does. I've seen that several times too. I never considered that maybe it had happened because of a spell-checker correcting to a wrong word... I just assumed the author was sloppy about using the right words. But your theory makes much more sense.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I wished very many that he would make a part too also two. LOL. God save us all from speeling errs! Ha! Ha!  I really love Mel Brooks stuff. My favorite was "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum"... hey, was that Mel Brooks or someone else? It has been so long since I saw it... I forgot...


I _think_ that was Zero Mostel. But I've never actually seen it.


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> There are a lot of theories:
> 
> 1. Just Mel's little joke.
> 2. He was tired of hearing "What are you working on now?" So when he announced Part II, they didn't ask.
> 3. He finally decided to do it, earlier this year. (But I don't believe it for a second (!).)
> 
> Take your pick.
> 
> Sig


I was leaning toward # 1, and thought maybe I could find out... and lo and behold, Wikipedia offers this:

_"Despite this, no sequel has been released, and the "Part I" of the film's title is merely a historical joke (The History of the World was a book written by Sir Walter Raleigh while prisoner in the Tower of London; he had only managed to complete the first volume before being beheaded). "_

Oh well. Too bad.


----------



## F1Wild

Susan in VA said:


> Sure it does. I've seen that several times too. I never considered that maybe it had happened because of a spell-checker correcting to a wrong word... I just assumed the author was sloppy about using the right words. But your theory makes much more sense.


And then, of course, I see in my quote a big, fat spelling error!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Susan in VA

F1Wild said:


> And then, of course, I see in my quote a big, fat spelling error!!!!!!!!!!!


Happens to all of us.


----------



## intinst

Sometimes just as I am hitting the "post" key, when it is too late.


----------



## Susan in VA

Speaking of too late.... I took a nap earlier and was planning to stay up late reading tonight, and now my Kindle's on the blink!! GRRRRRR!

(Apparently caused by this...
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,12054.0/topicseen.html)

Finally a good chunk of time to read, and this happens! Drowning my sorrows in chocolate...


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> I was leaning toward # 1, and thought maybe I could find out... and lo and behold, Wikipedia offers this:
> 
> _"Despite this, no sequel has been released, and the "Part I" of the film's title is merely a historical joke (The History of the World was a book written by Sir Walter Raleigh while prisoner in the Tower of London; he had only managed to complete the first volume before being beheaded). "_
> 
> Oh well. Too bad.


I say! That would surely put a damper on writing Part Two. Ahem. ***feels of neck***


----------



## sigrosenblum

Susan in VA said:


> I was leaning toward # 1, and thought maybe I could find out... and lo and behold, Wikipedia offers this:
> 
> _"Despite this, no sequel has been released, and the "Part I" of the film's title is merely a historical joke (The History of the World was a book written by Sir Walter Raleigh while prisoner in the Tower of London; he had only managed to complete the first volume before being beheaded). "_
> 
> Oh well. Too bad.


I agree. It would have been hilarious.


----------



## F1Wild

Okay, it's not a grammar pet peeve, but a huge one, none the less: Last night I watched a show on TV where a grown man said (several times) the "word" _*ascared*_, as in replacing the word _*afraid*_. "Are they ascared to..." "I was ascared to..."

Sorry and apologies ahead of time, but WTF


----------



## sigrosenblum

F1Wild said:


> Okay, it's not a grammar pet peeve, but a huge one, none the less: Last night I watched a show on TV where a grown man said (several times) the "word" _*ascared*_, as in replacing the word _*afraid*_. "Are they ascared to..." "I was ascared to..."
> 
> Sorry and apologies ahead of time, but WTF


This is obvious, but I'll state it anyway: It could be perfectly correct and appropriate. It depends on who said it. If it were used to reveal character--say Sergeant York's--then it would be fitting. But if Wolf Blitzer said it, it might give one a jolt. Care to give us more detail?


----------



## F1Wild

sigrosenblum said:


> This is obvious, but I'll state it anyway: It could be perfectly correct and appropriate. It depends on who said it. If it were used to reveal character--say Sergeant York's--then it would be fitting. But if Wolf Blitzer said it, it might give one a jolt. Care to give us more detail?


I will re-peeve my pet peeve. I hate to hear people use terms, like "ascared", when not applying the language to a specific character, but instead use the term in everyday speech.


----------



## sigrosenblum

F1Wild said:


> I will re-peeve my pet peeve. I hate to hear people use terms, like "ascared", when not applying the language to a specific character, but instead use the term in everyday speech.


I don't recall hearing this in the east--though I may be wrong about that. It may well be a regionalism. Others may know where it thrives.


----------



## mlewis78

We said ascared when we were little kids but outgrew it by about age 7.


----------



## Susan in VA

Guessing from some of the posts here, but maybe it's a Southwest pronunciation?

Meredith (jokingly) writes "askeered" and so does Brendan, both in Texas I think.

Though I'd agree that on national TV, _unless one is making a point of stressing regional origins_, regional pronunciations ought to be avoided, just for clarity's sake.


----------



## intinst

Some folk in the south are askeered, too.


----------



## F1Wild

Susan in VA said:


> Guessing from some of the posts here, but maybe it's a Southwest pronunciation?
> 
> Meredith (jokingly) writes "askeered" and so does Brendan, both in Texas I think.
> 
> Though I'd agree that on national TV, _unless one is making a point of stressing regional origins_, regional pronunciations ought to be avoided, just for clarity's sake.


I'm in Phoenix and have not heard it here, but I did hear it on TV the other night over and over again on some HGTV show.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

I heard it a lot growing up here in Texas.  I think or thought it was a sort of childish, southern, country ******* sort of thing, which I kind of think is cute in the right context.  I did pick mine up again a few years ago when I started conversating with Miss Meredith.  You like that?  Conversating?  That's another one of those kind of wierd words.  But as far as a'skeered or a'scared... I think the cowboys in the old "B" movies used it a lot... errr, I mean they employed the term quite frequently.   I also like the word 'methinks' and wish it would make a come back.


----------



## Susan in VA

Thanks for the laugh, Brendan...


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I also like the word 'methinks' and wish it would make a come back.


I have an acquaintance here in VA who talks in methinks and thees and thous and anons regularly. Too many years of RenFair and all that, maybe.


----------



## sigrosenblum

A dear writer friend of mine--well-published and well-reviewed--just wrote to me that something had "peaked" her interest.

Anything wrong here, folks?


----------



## SongbirdVB

sigrosenblum said:


> A dear writer friend of mine--well-published and well-reviewed--just wrote to me that something had "peaked" her interest.
> 
> Anything wrong here, folks?


LOL! I mentioned that one a while ago. A book I was reading had someone "peaking" around a corner. Peek-a-boo! So many different spellings. Isn't interest piqued?


----------



## sigrosenblum

SongbirdVB said:


> LOL! I mentioned that one a while ago. A book I was reading had someone "peaking" around a corner. Peek-a-boo! So many different spellings. Isn't interest piqued?


Righto. You must have peaked into the dictionary.


----------



## mlewis78

Pique my interest, which means to excite it.


----------



## Annalog

Brendan Carroll said:


> I wished very many that he would make a part too also two. LOL. God save us all from speeling errs! Ha! Ha!  I really love Mel Brooks stuff. My favorite was "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum"... hey, was that Mel Brooks or someone else? It has been so long since I saw it... I forgot...





Susan in VA said:


> I _think_ that was Zero Mostel. But I've never actually seen it.


According to Wikipedia, "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" was directed by Richard Lester, not Mel Brooks. Zero Mostel starred in the film along with Jack Gilford, and Phil Silvers. It was the final film appearance of Buster Keaton. Zero Mostel and Jack Gilford were in the stage version of the musical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Funny_Thing_Happened_on_the_Way_to_the_Forum_(film)

My husband and I watch the movie at least once a year.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Annalog said:


> According to Wikipedia, "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" was directed by Richard Lester, not Mel Brooks. Zero Mostel starred in the film along with Jack Gilford, and Phil Silvers. It was the final film appearance of Buster Keaton. Zero Mostel and Jack Gilford were in the stage version of the musical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Funny_Thing_Happened_on_the_Way_to_the_Forum_(film)
> 
> My husband and I watch the movie at least once a year.


Hey, thanks for the info. I looked for it on Netflix and some other dvd rentals and couldn't find it. So do you own the dvd? Do you know where I might buy a copy? Brendan


----------



## F1Wild

Annalog said:


> According to Wikipedia, "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" was directed by Richard Lester, not Mel Brooks. Zero Mostel starred in the film along with Jack Gilford, and Phil Silvers. It was the final film appearance of Buster Keaton. Zero Mostel and Jack Gilford were in the stage version of the musical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Funny_Thing_Happened_on_the_Way_to_the_Forum_(film)
> My husband and I watch the movie at least once a year.


Music and lyrics by the fabulous Stephen Sondheim and book by Burt Shevelove and Larry Gelbart, fantastic creator/writer of M*A*S*H!


----------



## Annalog

Brendan Carroll said:


> Hey, thanks for the info. I looked for it on Netflix and some other dvd rentals and couldn't find it. So do you own the dvd? Do you know where I might buy a copy? Brendan


Yes, we bought the DVD when we first saw for sale years ago. You can buy it from Amazon. 





F1Wild said:


> Music and lyrics by the fabulous Stephen Sondheim and book by Burt Shevelove and Larry Gelbart, fantastic creator/writer of M*A*S*H!


I have had music and lyrics from the movie playing in my head all day. Reading this thread reminded me that it is time to watch the movie again.


----------



## F1Wild

Comedy tonight


----------



## Annalog

F1Wild said:


> Comedy tonight


Definitely.

Tragedy tomorrow, Comedy tonight!


----------



## F1Wild

!!!


----------



## patrisha w.

Susan in VA said:


> Guess so.
> 
> But about that "sweet" business... since you brought it up.... Having just recently driven through a very small portion of the South, I am baffled that in some venues there was ONLY sweet tea available! And when I said I wanted mine unsweetened, they offered me artificially sweetened tea, thinking that it was a health/calorie concern.  Don't at least SOME Southerners prefer UNsweetened tea??


I was a Southerner for over 30 years but because I was born and brought up in England --where real tea is hot tea with milk and/sugar--it took me almost the whole 30 years to actually enjoy iced tea. And, yes, I got some odd looks when I would ask for unsweetened tea in a restaurant.
My MIL, bless her heart, would make a huge pitcher of sugared iced tea for everyone else and a smaller jug of unsweetened tea for me. She was the epitome of a Southern lady, and although she felt unsweetened ice tea was just wrong, she wanted me to feel comfortable.

Patrisha


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Annalog said:


> Yes, we bought the DVD when we first saw for sale years ago. You can buy it from Amazon.


Thank you so much, Miss Annalog. Just bought it and will now commence to torment all viewers in my house until I get 'friends' to watch it with me.


----------



## sigrosenblum

A very intelligent and articulate public official just said this in an interview:

“We have a media that doesn’t report the news. We have a media that wants to make the news.”

Anything wrong here?


----------



## Meemo

sigrosenblum said:


> A very intelligent and articulate public official just said this in an interview:
> 
> "We have a media that doesn't report the news. We have a media that wants to make the news."
> 
> Anything wrong here?


Yep - "media" is plural for "medium". Looking it up at dictionary.com though I noticed this "usage note":
"In the 1920s media began to appear as a singular collective noun, sometimes with the plural medias. This singular use is now common in the fields of mass communication and advertising, but it is not frequently found outside them: The media is (or are) not antibusiness." 
I'd still rather see "We have media that want to make the news." 
And I agree with the opinion expressed.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Meemo said:


> Yep - "media" is plural for "medium". Looking it up at dictionary.com though I noticed this "usage note":
> "In the 1920s media began to appear as a singular collective noun, sometimes with the plural medias. This singular use is now common in the fields of mass communication and advertising, but it is not frequently found outside them: The media is (or are) not antibusiness."
> I'd still rather see "We have media that want to make the news."
> And I agree with the opinion expressed.


Well, that's news--or newses. And I am very glad that media/medias never got a toehold.


----------



## Susan in VA

I'm sure I've groused about this one before, but today's example annoyed me so much I just have to post it. 

There's an article online, in Yahoo news, about small business start-ups and why many of the ones that people start are likely to fail.  The first example given is restaurants, which have a higher failure rate than other retail businesses.  And at the end of the section on restaurants it says:  "In other words, Chef Emptor."

If people use foreign words and phrases to prove that they have linguistic skills, and then misuse (or alter) them badly, it tends to prove the opposite....


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> "In other words, Chef Emptor."


I don't know enough about Latin to understand what is wrong here. LOL. But I do like Latin and I like Latin phrases, but I have the tendency to misquote them horribly, but the neat thing is that most of the people I know have no idea what I'm saying even when I'm speaking plain English.  I like to


Spoiler



"bastardize"


 things, I guess is what I'm saying (no matter what that makes me ) For instance, the Latin usually found on grandfather clocks says something like: Tempits fugits (sp?). I like to say "Well, I gotta go folks, tempits is fugiting."


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> I like to say "Well, I gotta go folks, tempits is fugiting."


 
_That_ one is funny. (Actually my dad says the same thing, tempus is fugiting, and various other such constructions.) The difference is that it's intentionally done, and done with understanding of the original meaning.

It's annoying when people use a Latin or French (or whatever) phrase, in original or slightly altered form, and clearly have no idea of what it meant to start with. Why do people use a word (_any_ word, no matter whether it's foreign or not) when they have no idea what it means?? They have a slim chance of getting it right, and a much greater chance of exposing themselves as pretentious.


----------



## 4Katie

Spelling 'definitely' as 'definately'. There is no 'a' in 'definitely!!!


----------



## mlewis78

One of my peeves because I see it so much is misspelling of separate.  Many people write "seperate".  Ugh.


----------



## Susan in VA

One that non-cooks can be forgiven for, but it really shouldn't happen a dozen times in a professionally written cookbook:  confusing marinate and marinade.

One marinates something in a marinade.


----------



## geoffthomas

Susan in VA said:


> One that non-cooks can be forgiven for, but it really shouldn't happen a dozen times in a professionally written cookbook: confusing marinate and marinade.
> 
> One marinates something in a marinade.


Yeah, like I marinated those nice NY strip steaks last night in a good marinade of olive oil, soy sauce and Montreal 
Steak Seasonings.
Like that, huh?


----------



## Susan in VA

Sounds yummy even with just the olive oil and soy sauce  --  what are Montreal Steak seasonings?


----------



## geoffthomas

It is a set of spices (peppers, sea salt, other stuff - rough ground) that a Steak House has marketed.
Much like those from McCormmick's.


----------



## harfner

Grammar and steak sauce.  Yum!


----------



## SongbirdVB

Speaking of steak, there is a local steak house that has a commercial that is all about the Outback (want to try to guess which chain it is? LOL!) and ends with the announcer saying "Eat Adventurous!"  It just makes me scream.  The first time I heard it my DH and I were watching a movie, commercial comes on and we are talking when all of a sudden I burst out with "LY!!"  He had NO clue what was going on until I said "Eat Adventurous-LY!!"


----------



## sigrosenblum

SongbirdVB said:


> Speaking of steak, there is a local steak house that has a commercial that is all about the Outback (want to try to guess which chain it is? LOL!) and ends with the announcer saying "Eat Adventurous!" It just makes me scream. The first time I heard it my DH and I were watching a movie, commercial comes on and we are talking when all of a sudden I burst out with "LY!!" He had NO clue what was going on until I said "Eat Adventurous-LY!!"


Yes, I noted this, too. And you reminded me that I wanted to post a question. Does anyone know the marketing reason for this? For example, is it pandering to the rough, tough personality in contrast to the effete, literate, namby pamby types? What is the subtle subtext in the positioning of this sales message. I guarantee that the reason is not sheer ignorance. These people are smart. I hate them. But they're smart. As some of you know, I am an ex-ad agency owner, copywriter, consultant. Very ex, thank goodness!


----------



## Ann in Arlington

They want to get your attention.

Seems like they did.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

sigrosenblum said:


> Yes, I noted this, too. And you reminded me that I wanted to post a question. Does anyone know the marketing reason for this? For example, is it pandering to the rough, tough personality in contrast to the effete, literate, mamby pamby types? What is the subtle subtext in the positioning of this sales message. I guarantee that the reason is not sheer ignorance. These people are smart. I hate them. But they're smart. As some of you know, I am an ex-ad agency owner, copywriter, consultant. Very ex, thank goodness!


Hey, Mr. S.R.Blum, I thought it was _namby-pamby_. And I hear tell that Aussies don't need no stinkiny Lolly, lolly, lolly adverbs... oh, I guess that is what you said already. You just said it with more grace and beautiousness than I could. I hate smart people, too.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Brendan Carroll said:


> Hey, Mr. S.R.Blum, I thought it was _namby-pamby_. And I hear tell that Aussies don't need no stinkiny Lolly, lolly, lolly adverbs... oh, I guess that is what you said already. You just said it with more grace and beautiousness than I could. I hate smart people, too.


Hey Brendan:

You is right, pal. It is namby. Simple typing mistake, which I will fix. Note, though, that I didn't say I hate them because they are smart.

Hate may be too strong a word because I really do recognize the need for marketing and the ancillary arts. I guess I grind my teeth because so much of today's advertising is mindlessly moronic. And because it often celebrates crudity and bad taste. And thanks for pulling my verbal leg. Maybe you meant beauticiosity? Or beauticidity?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> They want to get your attention.
> 
> Seems like they did.


Never thought of that. Could be.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

sigrosenblum said:


> Hey Brendan:
> 
> You is right, pal. It is namby. Simple typing mistake, which I will fix. Note, though, that I didn't say I hate them because they are smart.
> 
> Hate may be too strong a word because I really do recognize the need for marketing and the ancillary arts. I guess I grind my teeth because so much of today's advertising is mindlessly moronic. And because it often celebrates crudity and bad taste. And thanks for pulling my verbal leg. Maybe you meant beauticiosity? Or beauticidity?


You are quite right, old boy. Hate is by far a very misunderstood word in these times of political correctness. I find myself saying I hate this and I hate that and I have a good friend that is trying to break me of that habit. I fear that we may soon find ourselves answering the door to find the 'PC Police' handing us a ticket. And you are right, I was pulling your 'verbal leg'. Couldn't resist.  I love Aussie humor (no matter what that says about my mentality :\). 
As for the choices... the former might be my primary choice, whereas the latter reminds me of something that might cause blisters on my tongue.  Brendan


----------



## Susan in VA

sigrosenblum said:


> And thanks for pulling my verbal leg.


<getting out my anatomy books to locate this obscure body part>

Had to laugh when I read Songbird's post, because when I was about nine or ten and just learning English, my father would sing out "LY!" several times in each conversation (whenever I got it wrong) to remind me that English uses <gasp>_ adverbs_. I am soooo tempted to do that myself now, mostly with DD's dad, but I try to refrain. 


Spoiler



Sometimes I even succeed.


----------



## Marguerite

one of my per peeves is was vs. were  i.e. "if I was to light your fire"  I know that it's a famous song and poetic license applies but were doesn't change the rhythm.  Why couldn't they use the correct word?


----------



## sigrosenblum

Marguerite said:


> one of my per peeves is was vs. were i.e. "if I was to light your fire" I know that it's a famous song and poetic license applies but were doesn't change the rhythm. Why couldn't they use the correct word?


There's some logic in the use of the incorrect word: "light your fire" is direct, basic, animalistic even, some would say. Yet "were" smacks of the culturally polished and cerebral.

It recalls the combination Woody Allen often uses to great effect. I improvise here: "He is the lowest, rotten, criminal creep that has ever walked the earth. And I say this with all due respect."


----------



## BTackitt

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.....
I am taking 4 courses this semester. 2 are online where we have to participate in *forum* discussions..
Today's GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR moment brought to you by the following sentence from a classmate of mine:

I am a firm believer that parenting is "THE MOST" hardest jobs on this planet.

I am just about to choke over this .. seriously... I can forgive typos (There are days when we all suffer typoglycemia), and on a good day.. advise/advice issues. This sentence however is KILLING ME.


----------



## intinst

I am one whose grammar is often not correct. This sentence is grating on me like fingernails on a chalkboard, so I an only imagine how it must affect someone who uses proper grammar, and it is extremely bad for college level writing.


----------



## Annalog

It is possible that the person originally typed two sentences and then decided to change it to a single sentence. After deleting the words at the end of one sentence and at the beginning of the next sentence, I have sometimes not noticed that the result is no longer correct, usually by either doubling or completely eliminating something.

The quotes and CAPS, on the other hand, cannot be explained that way. It could be worse. At least *bold * text and exclamation points are missing.


----------



## sigrosenblum

BTackitt said:


> GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.....
> I am taking 4 courses this semester. 2 are online where we have to participate in *forum* discussions..
> Today's GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR moment brought to you by the following sentence from a classmate of mine:
> 
> I am a firm believer that parenting is "THE MOST" hardest jobs on this planet.
> 
> I am just about to choke over this .. seriously... I can forgive typos (There are days when we all suffer typoglycemia), and on a good day.. advise/advice issues. This sentence however is KILLING ME.


To put the best possible gloss on this, it may be an error of the kind described by another member here. And it is one that I see quite often in the NY Times--the celebrated "newspaper of record."

The writer may have started to say that "parenting is the most difficult job in the world." Then--and it happens to all of us--a better formulation popped into mind: "Parenting is one of the hardest jobs on this planet."

Then, instead of re-reading the material, since this is a lazy and sloppy age when it comes to words, the writer quit--leaving countless others grinding their teeth in frustration, and worse. What say you all?


----------



## Ann in Arlington

BTackitt said:


> (There are days when we all suffer typoglycemia)


The sentence is atrocious. . . . .but I just LOVE this term: typoglycemia . . . may I use it? 

I think Anna might have a partial handle on it. . . the person only partly edited their post; my theory is s/he probably was going to say 'one of the most' and changed it to 'the most' and forgot to loose the 's' on 'jobs'. Still, that doesn't explain using the word 'most' with the word 'hardest' in the first place. Unless s/he was purposely trying to indicate extreme emphasis.

edit: sig and I simulposted: clearly we think alike.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Ann in Arlington said:


> The sentence is atrocious. . . . .but I just LOVE this term: typoglycemia . . . may I use it?
> 
> I think Anna might have a partial handle on it. . . the person only partly edited their post; my theory is s/he probably was going to say 'one of the most' and changed it to 'the most' and forgot to loose the 's' on 'jobs'. Still, that doesn't explain using the word 'most' with the word 'hardest' in the first place. Unless s/he was purposely trying to indicate extreme emphasis.
> 
> edit: sig and I simulposted: clearly we think alike.


And "simulposted" can join "typoglycemia" as an original twist. Since I have low blood sugar, I appreciated "typoglycemia" in a special way.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

I didn't make up 'simulposted'. . . .I'm sure I've seen it here previously.  But it is a good word: You know what it means as soon as you read it even though you've never heard it before.


----------



## Garand

Ann in Arlington said:


> I didn't make up 'simulposted'. . . .I'm sure I've seen it here previously. But it is a good word: You know what it means as soon as you read it even though you've never heard it before.


Much like synchronized swimmers drowning at the same time, two fly fishermen might "simulcast."

Dave


----------



## sigrosenblum

Garand said:


> Much like synchronized swimmers drowning at the same time, two fly fishermen might "simulcast."
> 
> Dave


Clever. Funny. So now I have to say: Simulcast: Twins being accepted for a Broadway show. Or death masks made on them. (I hope we haven't started something.)


----------



## BTackitt

Ann in Arlington said:


> The sentence is atrocious. . . . .but I just LOVE this term: typoglycemia . . . may I use it?


Ann, you are more than welcome to use it.. I play an MMORPG (EQ) and play a bard. When I first started playing seven years ago, the cast time of a song was 3 seconds... so I learned to type in 3 second bursts.... I often found my fingers were flying faster then the thoughts in my head... and when my friends would hear my typing over their headsets they said I sounded like a machine gun... but very often there would be small errors.. and we called it typoglycemia for some weird 3am reason.


----------



## mlewis78

Well, a writer has to proof a sentence all the more if it is edited.  Why change the sentence half way (although I may have done this and not known it).  Whenever I change a sentence, I usually find that a lot of other words have to be chnaged.


----------



## Laurie

I don't know if it's already been posted here, but I hate when somebody writes "Your welcome" instead of "You're welcome"  
Drives me nuts!!!


----------



## sigrosenblum

A tennis commentator said that when a guy ran onto the court and kissed Nadal, he was "nonplussed"--it didn't bother him a bit. Observations, anyone?


----------



## SongbirdVB

Nonplussed would say to me that it did bother him!  But it's not a word you hear a lot, I could be wrong (it's happened once or twice).


----------



## Annalog

sigrosenblum said:


> A tennis commentator said that when a guy ran onto the court and kissed Nadal, he was "nonplussed"--it didn't bother him a bit. Observations, anyone?


In my opinion, if Nadal was not bothered, surprised, or confused, then he was not "nonplussed." I used the default dictionary on my Kindle to verify that my understanding of "nonplussed" was correct. The dictionary included an "informal" definition of "not disconcerted; unperturbed" as well as a usage comment indicating that a meaning essentially opposite to the traditional meaning has developed in recent years in North American English. It seems to be common misuse on the way to becoming a standard definition. Boo!!!!


----------



## sigrosenblum

SongbirdVB said:


> Nonplussed would say to me that it did bother him! But it's not a word you hear a lot, I could be wrong (it's happened once or twice).


No, you are right.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

I always wonder, is the opposite of nonplussed "plussed?"  

Betsy


----------



## sigrosenblum

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I always wonder, is the opposite of nonplussed "plussed?"
> 
> Betsy


I haven't checked, but it is probably like inept. Is there an "ept"? I use it, but in jest--as someone above says tempus fugits.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

sigrosenblum said:


> I haven't checked, but it is probably like inept. Is there an "ept"? I use it, but in jest


I've wondered that, too. 

Betsy


----------



## Annalog

sigrosenblum said:


> I haven't checked, but it is probably like inept. Is there an "ept"? I use it, but in jest--as someone above says tempus fugits.


There is but it is "apt" instead of "ept". According to the dictionary the origin is from Latin ineptus which is from _in_- "not" + _aptus _ "apt". The derivatives "ineptitude" and "aptitude" help me remember.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Annalog said:


> There is but it is "apt" instead of "ept". According to the dictionary the origin is from Latin ineptus which is from _in_- "not" + _aptus _ "apt". The derivatives "ineptitude" and "aptitude" help me remember.


This sounds right to me. My limited Latin vocabulary did not include "ineptus." I'm on the level of "femina," "partes tres" and such. So it is apt!

However, these days, I don't hear it applied in that way. We say "It was an apt comparison." But do we say, "He is apt"? Maybe, but it does sound strange to my ear. Still, that was good detective work.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Love this thread!

Now explain "nonplussed."  Is there a plussed?  Sounds like it could have a French derivation?

Betsy


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Why isn't inflammable the opposite of flammable?


----------



## mlewis78

I found this definition of nonplussed online (free dictionary):

To put at a loss as to what to think, say, or do; bewilder.
n.
A state of perplexity, confusion, or bewilderment.

adj:  perplexed.

This is the opposite of what was stated above.


----------



## sigrosenblum

mlewis78 said:


> I found this definition of nonplussed online (free dictionary):
> 
> To put at a loss as to what to think, say, or do; bewilder.
> n.
> A state of perplexity, confusion, or bewilderment.
> 
> adj: perplexed.
> 
> This is the opposite of what was stated above.


Right. You have given the classic, accepted definition. But there appears to be a new move afoot to make "nonplussed" mean "not perplexed." Why? Let's quote Dr. Johnson when a women asked him why he had made an error in his famous Dictionary: "Ignorance, madam, pure ignorance."


----------



## Annalog

sigrosenblum said:


> This sounds right to me. My limited Latin vocabulary did not include "ineptus." I'm on the level of "femina," "partes tres" and such. So it is apt!
> 
> However, these days, I don't hear it applied in that way. We say "It was an apt comparison." But do we say, "He is apt"? Maybe, but it does sound strange to my ear. Still, that was good detective work.


My Latin vocabulary is nearly non-existant; I was quoting the dictionary.  Two usage examples from the dictionary are: 
She was apt to confuse the past with the present.
He proved an apt scholar.


----------



## sigrosenblum

Annalog said:


> My Latin vocabulary is nearly non-existant; I was quoting the dictionary.  Two usage examples from the dictionary are:
> She was apt to confuse the past with the present.
> He proved an apt scholar.


Yes, "He proved an apt scholar" doesn't grate on the ear. But it sure has an old-fashioned ring." I can't remember the last time I heard the word. Other opinions?


----------



## Annalog

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Love this thread!
> 
> Now explain "nonplussed." Is there a plussed? Sounds like it could have a French derivation?
> 
> Betsy


According to the _New Oxford American Dictionary - Second Edition_ that came with my Kindle:

nonplus

_v._ surprise and confuse (someone) so much that they are unsure how to react: _Diane was nonplussed by such an odd question._
_n._ a state of being surprised and confused in this way.
<ORIGIN> late 16th cent.: from Latin _non plus_ 'not more'. The noun originally meant 'a state in which no more can be said or done'.

If I guessed, I would say that when a person is in 'a state in which no more can be said or done' and feels as if something should be said or done, then that person could appear confused, surprised, perplexed, perturbed, or nonplussed. 

(EDITED to remove a pet peeve of my mom's from the sentence above. I reread the sentence and then heard my mom's voice in my head. )

The primary example of being 'plussed' that occurs to me is 'c++' where more can be done than with 'c'. 

It was under the definition for nonplussed that the dictionary mentined the informal (and incorrect) definition and under <USAGE> described how the incorrect definition is becoming more common but is not yet considered standard.


----------



## LaRita

I was surprised in the last few days to run into a (to me) blatant error in the Cleo Coyle Coffeehouse series, consistent use of "discrete" (meaning separate and distinct) when the correct word in context would be "discreet" (capable of maintaining silence).  I was surprised the editors did not catch it, and as a reader I find it extremely irritating.


----------



## sigrosenblum

LaRita said:


> I was surprised in the last few days to run into a (to me) blatent error in the Cleo Coyle Coffeehouse series, consistent use of "discrete" (meaning separate and distinct) when the correct word in context would be "discreet" (capable of maintaining silence). I was surprised the editors did not catch it, and as a reader I find it extremely irritating.


Me too. But the mistake is quite common. And today, we have a subset of "editors" who have all the skills required--except literacy. "Discrete" is not much used now--except by academics, technical types, and often by those who favor the complex over the simple and delight in obscurantism. So readers--and, of course, editors--aren't all that familiar with it.


----------



## mlewis78

sigrosenblum said:


> Me too. But the mistake is quite common. And today, we have a subset of "editors" who have all the skills required--except literacy. "Discrete" is not much used now--except by academics, technical types, and often by those who favor the complex over the simple and delight in obscurantism. So readers--and, of course, editors--aren't all that familiar with it.


I learned about discrete from working for attorneys.


----------



## Meemo

sigrosenblum said:


> A tennis commentator said that when a guy ran onto the court and kissed Nadal, he was "nonplussed"--it didn't bother him a bit. Observations, anyone?


The commentator certainly doesn't know the meaning of "nonplussed".


----------



## sigrosenblum

mlewis78 said:


> I learned about discrete from working for attorneys.


You didn't name them. Were you being discreet?


----------



## mlewis78

sigrosenblum said:


> You didn't name them. Were you being discreet?


LOL. Yes, of course. There was a corporate attorney I started working for in 1987 who often used the word discrete in agreements that he dictated onto tape. I was getting it wrong at first and finally asked him what his meaning was. I think it was about "discrete entity(ies)."


----------



## sigrosenblum

mlewis78 said:


> LOL. Yes, of course. There was a corporate attorney I started working for in 1987 who often used the word discrete in agreements that he dictated onto tape. I was getting it wrong at first and finally asked him what his meaning was. I think it was about "discrete entity(ies)."


Now that I think of it, it may have been in law school that I first heard the word. The law was not for me, which is quite possibly why I turned to crime--and the writing of mysteries!


----------



## harfner

I'm hearing more and more people use "flaunt" where they mean "flout." They say, "You can't flaunt the law!" I suppose that's true--you can't really wave the law around or put it on your chest like a scarlet A. But when you publicly refuse to obey the law, you are _flouting_ it.


----------



## mlewis78

I'm glad they didn't say they fluted it!  Another good reason to call flute players flutists rather than flautists.  In Great Britain they say flautist and pronounce it flawtist.  Ughhh.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

And let us please not call flute players 'tutors' when we know they are all tooters.  Don't mind me, just passing threw... er, through or is that thruff as in rough or ruff as in bark.


----------



## mlewis78

Brendan Carroll said:


> And let us please not call flute players 'tutors' when we know they are all tooters. Don't mind me, just passing threw... er, through or is that thruff as in rough or ruff as in bark.


Good point, Brendan.


----------



## Susan in VA

BTackitt said:


> GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.....
> I am taking 4 courses this semester. 2 are online where we have to participate in *forum* discussions..


Mine are online whenever possible, but those online discussions drive me nuts too. (Blackboard discussion forum posts?) I think people treat them as a quick-and-dirty text message or email posting, not as the multi-paragraph brief essay that they're supposed to be, and so they don't bother proofreading or even giving it a second look. Or, more depressingly, maybe some of them just can't write at anything close to college level.


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> Why isn't inflammable the opposite of flammable?


Because the prefix "in" can mean two different things.

From Wikipedia:

_The word "inflammable" came from Latin "'inflammāre" = "to set fire to," where the prefix "'in-"' means "in" as in "inside", rather than "not" as in "invisible" and "ineligible". Nontheless, "inflammable" is often erroneously thought to mean "non-flammable". To avoid this safety hazard, "flammable" is now more commonly used, not only as a warning label, but in standard speech and writing as well, when referring to physical combustibility.[1]_

For clarity, ideally there should just be "flammable" and "not flammable". But since people persist in using the original form "inflammable", and since it's almost always unclear whether they are using it correctly, I guess it helps to look at what the sign is actually on.... anything shaped like a tank holding liquid is probably "flammable"... especially since if it isn't, why bother putting a sign on it in the first place?

Although sometimes you see signs on trucks that say "non-inflammable". Why do they bother? Is that like saying "go ahead and hit this truck, it won't blow up"?


----------



## Garand

Susan in VA said:


> <snip>
> Although sometimes you see signs on trucks that say "non-inflammable". Why do they bother? Is that like saying "go ahead and hit this truck, it won't blow up"?


Those markings are part of a mandatory set of marks and placards for tankers (both rail and road) and storage tanks. They are designed to help first responders in the event of an accident or leak. If the driver or responsible party is incapacitated (assuming they were _capacitated_ in the first place), this is one of the first clues available to determine further actions.


----------



## Marguerite

_The word "inflammable" came from Latin "'inflammāre" = "to set fire to," where the prefix "'in-"' means "in" as in "inside", rather than "not" as in "invisible" and "ineligible". Nontheless, "inflammable" is often erroneously thought to mean "non-flammable". To avoid this safety hazard, "flammable" is now more commonly used, not only as a warning label, but in standard speech and writing as well, when referring to physical combustibility.[1]_

For clarity, ideally there should just be "flammable" and "not flammable".

[/quote]

Just think inflame, as in to ignite. Think of all of those romance novels. Which sounds right.. her loins flamed or inflamed.


----------



## patrisha w.

mlewis78 said:


> One of my peeves because I see it so much is misspelling of separate. Many people write "seperate". Ugh.


Easy way to remember this one correctly was given to my older son by his fifth grade teacher. "There is A RAT in sepA RAT e."


----------



## Susan in VA

Garand said:


> Those markings are part of a mandatory set of marks and placards for tankers (both rail and road) and storage tanks. They are designed to help first responders in the event of an accident or leak. If the driver or responsible party is incapacitated (assuming they were _capacitated_ in the first place), this is one of the first clues available to determine further actions.


Oh! That makes sense, of course. Thank you for pointing it out. Yes, if someone is unconscious behind the wheel, and the tank is dripping, it would certainly help to know that it's NOT going to blow up.


----------



## Garand

Susan in VA said:


> Oh! That makes sense, of course. Thank you for pointing it out. Yes, if someone is unconscious behind the wheel, and the tank is dripping, it would certainly help to know that it's NOT going to blow up.


...or, even more critically, if it IS going to blow up. That factor helps you decide which way to run!

I've been writing and teaching this stuff all over the world for years. I can truly say I am the cause of _global snoring_.

Dave


----------



## Susan in VA

Garand said:


> I've been writing and teaching this stuff


Industrial signage regulations? Or first-responder guidelines?


----------



## Garand

OT:
I develop courses for the transport of dangerous goods (hazardous material) - primarily by air, but also for other modes. 
Dave


----------



## Susan in VA

Garand said:


> OT:
> I develop courses for the transport of dangerous goods (hazardous material) - primarily by air, but also for other modes.
> Dave


Then thank you for doing your part to keep people safe!


----------



## Jeff

As I was walking through the living room this morning I happened to hear a woman use the phrase _disempower women_ in a sentence. I turned to look at the screen and saw that her name was preceded by the abbreviation _Dr_ so "disempower" must be a word. Right?


----------



## Susan in VA

Well not necessarily...  there might be an "hc" after the name....  

But actually, Webster's does claim it's a real word.


----------



## F1Wild

I didn't think it was a word either, but hear it almost every day now (especially with women's issues in the news so much).
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Disempower


----------



## Jeff

F1Wild said:


> I didn't think it was a word either, but hear it almost every day now (especially with women's issues in the news so much).
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Disempower


Oh good. Now I can add it to _disembark_ as one of my biggest grammar pet peeves.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Oh good. Now I can add it to _disembark_ as one of my biggest grammar pet peeves.


  Yes, you'd think there would be some cancelling-out going on in those words, wouldn't you?


----------



## Susan in VA

Got this in an email today, thought all you wordphiles might enjoy it:

http://www.sporcle.com/games/common_english_words.php

In 12 minutes, see if you can name the 100 most common words in the English language. It puts the words into a chart for you and counts down the time remaining. I got 63 on my first attempt, but I'll probably try again tomorrow (doing it again right away probably skews the results since you've just seen the list).

Have fun!


----------



## NogDog

I got 69. Some of the ones I missed were kind of silly: I had "


Spoiler



her


" but not "


Spoiler



him


", and I had "


Spoiler



and


" but not "


Spoiler



or


", and a few others where I had gotten words that should have lead to related words. I guess the pressure got to me.


----------



## BTackitt

Ok.. Thanks for giving me a new waste of time susan.. that website is fun!


----------



## Susan in VA

BTackitt said:


> Ok.. Thanks for giving me a new waste of time susan.. that website is fun!


Would you believe I just played that one game and then resumed answering my email. I didn't realize until YOU brought it up that the whole site is full of such games... so thanks back to you!


----------



## Jeff

India to memorize victims of Mumbai terror attacks on first anniversary.


----------



## Susan in VA

Will there be a test?


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Will there be a test?


We don't even want to think about how that news organization might phrase your question.


----------



## darkmannn

Poor grammar drives me crazy.
Unfortunately, language evolves. What is poor grammar or wrong usage today will change if it is used incorrectly often. Communication is the rule. My daughter's middle school doesn't teach spelling or grammar any longer.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

When my son was young, he had a wonderful 5th grade teacher who made them write a short essay every week.  All different topics.  At first he hated it because he couldn't come up with anything to say. BUT, she totally didn't care about grammar or spelling or anything like that at first:  just wanted kids to start working out how to get their thoughts on paper.  AND she let them type it out on a word processor so that if they had poor handwriting or, like my son, just hated the physical writing process, that wouldn't be an impediment.

After a couple of months, say by the end of October, she taught them how to proof read so that their thoughts would be readable to others.  In January she let them know that they'd begin to be graded on mechanics as well as content.  By the end of his 5th grade year, my son thought nothing of having to write 10 pages on any topic. . .and he'd learned where spell checkers and grammar checkers don't work!

I admit, when she said at first that she wasn't going to grade on grammar or spelling, I was concerned, even a bit skeptical. . . .but ultimately she totally achieved her goal:  make kids who don't freak at the idea of putting their thoughts on paper.  Her theory was that kids are creative, but teachers jumping on them for spelling and grammar too early squashes that and makes them afraid to write.  So she wanted to make sure they knew that their story was important and worthy of being told . . . and then taught them how to make sure that others would be able to get it too.

Mind you, they didn't really do Math all year. . . .but as a math major I was able to keep that covered for him.   The next year, in that grade, they did a teacher switch and she taught "English" to both 5th grade classes and the other teacher taught Math to both.


----------



## Susan in VA

That sounds like a really great way to get kids comfortable with writing. <filing the idea away for home use as "enhancement" if DD's teachers continue to be unsatisfactory> I like that your son's teacher apparently had the whole school year all planned out, and that it worked as intended!


----------



## F1Wild

Ann in Arlington said:


> When my son was young, he had a wonderful 5th grade teacher who made them write a short essay every week....


Nothing to do with grammar, but this reminded me of something Tim Burton said the other day on Tavis Smiley;s show. He said he hates when people say they cannot draw and wondered when this kicked in for kids. When everyone is young we all know we can draw until someone drums into our heads that what we are doing is not part of a certain plan and therefore we feel we no longer can do it.

I guess I can draw...you might not be able to figure out what it is, but in my mind I know.


----------



## Richard in W.Orange

Ok, wandering completely off subject I'm sure...

I find myself in agreement at most of what has been posted here as a pet peeve.
I recently was in the presence of a whole family of people who are basically too well read and a tad overeducated. 
I found myself, yesterday morning in fact, not correcting the eldest of us for an adjective used as an adverb.

My all encompassing annoyance, that I have voiced to my current roommate, is that English and its use are no longer correctly taught or enforced in most educational systems. If English is being taught, grammar is not, and the language of the numeric keyboard device is strangely being accepted as acceptable use of the language.

I have been told that I am too verbose, although it was phrased in such a way as to make my hair stand on end, and it was suggested at that time that I was not making enough use of my blackberry. I explained to this person, who was both my immediate supervisor and a principal of the company, that I was NOT about to start ejaculating one word and short phrase answers via the blackberry for issues that not only required thought, but some supporting facts.

I find myself wondering if the Blackberry is not at some level directly related to the problems business faces. That and the 2 hour meeting.

Best use of power by a director level employee:

IT Director at a Company conference, giving a presentation on the technology noticed that at the preceeding presentation 90% of the attendees were more focusused on the blackberry than the presenter. In response to this, adlibbed the following: Taking out _his_ cell phone informed everyone that they could now please turn their blackberry *OFF* and explained that _his_ cell phone was now out because if the devices were not turned off voluntarily that the next call on the cell would be to the carrier to have all service suspended for the next hour.

It worked, the presentation was actually heard and absorbed and almost no political capital was expended. The CEO was the following presentation and asked this director to stay handy.


----------



## Laurie

Richard in W.Orange said:


> Ok, wandering completely off subject I'm sure...
> 
> My all encompassing annoyance, that I have voiced to my current roommate, is that English and its use are no longer correctly taught or enforced in most educational systems. If English is being taught, grammar is not, and the language of the numeric keyboard device is strangely being accepted as acceptable use of the language.


I agree, English is not correctly taught. Grammar? Forget it. I don't blame it only on the blackberry and other devices though. I graduated 30 years ago, and even then grammar wasn't taught as well as it should have been. Although we *were* expected to spell correctly - in _every_ class - not just English. I still get hung up on grammar issues, but I do try to be correct and I don't mind being told when I'm wrong. The last of my three children recently graduated from high school, and I have to say it's an absolute disgrace how much English has deteriorated. I was shocked at some of the things they brought home. Teachers can't teach spelling and grammar when, evidently, they don't even know it themselves. I actually went to the school one day and complained about a paper that was sent home. It was a 2 page document of what this teacher expected of his students - and it was an absolute mess!!! It ended with this teacher telling students he expected them to "due" their best. This teacher had a website also, and it posted his resume which was equally terrible with spelling and grammar errors. The school didn't see a problem because he taught Physics, not English.


----------



## Susan in VA

Richard in W.Orange said:


> My all encompassing annoyance, that I have voiced to my current roommate, is that English and its use are no longer correctly taught or enforced in most educational systems.


Sounds like you'll feel right at home here in the grammar thread with the rest of us nitpickers people who still care about the language.


----------



## intinst

I know that grammar and especially spelling are challenges for me. I think that is why it bothers me so much when I see improper usage or spelling by people who should know the correct form. Teachers of any subject, Master and doctorate degree holders in business should be able to use English and spell properly. If I see it, it has to be visible to most people. I believe that it comes down to two major areas of concern: lack of proofreading and the thinking that the idea is what is most important, not how it is conveyed. I know that when I see improper spelling or grammar mistakes in items sent home by teachers or in papers distributed by businesses, including my employer, I think less of the person who generated it. If they don't care enough to get it right, why should I care about what they wrote is my thinking, I am sorry to say.


----------



## Richard in W.Orange

Susan in VA said:


> Sounds like you'll feel right at home here in the grammar thread with the rest of us nitpickers people who still care about the language.


The language is powerful, overly complex sometimes, but it isn't impossible to learn and use correctly. And educators have no business educating if they cannot handle it. (But recognize that I am the one who has, or is expected, to proof things frequently where I work and I had one boss, who, shall remain an idiot until I am long buried (multiple doctoral degrees or not), because not only could he not be 'bothered' with writing well, beyond some conversational English, excepting in his field, he couldn't speak the language conversationally. (But this rant will take us into "English as the National Language" and a rant on driver's tests being offered (at least up here) in at least 4 languages other than English. (And it is wondered what is the matter?))


----------



## Richard in W.Orange

And I will admit that I both sometimes have a very difficult time spelling some words and also tend to re-read before I "post", "send", or otherwise put the language down in permanent form. I also ramble, but to paraphrase Henry Higgins, I don't care what I write, so long as I write it properly. 

Willing to forgive spelling errors but basic incorrect construction, Never!


----------



## BTackitt

Unfortunately, English is not the only thing not being taught correctly. I graduated high school twenty years ago. Calculators in class? NEVER. You learned to do the math long hand. 
Fast forward to today, every kid is not only expected to have a calculator, but it has to be an expensive one with all of the bells and whistles, where the cheapest one you can get is nearly $85. (I have 3 teens in school).
I am taking chemistry in college. (changing careers to get a BSN) I am the only one in class to have one of these fancy shmancy calculators, and NOT use it. We recently had to do a calculation in class, everyone whipped out their devices, (mine pencil and paper) to do the problem. I felt dumb when I got a different answer than almost everyone else, until I asked about it, and it turned out that I was the only one to get it correct.  They had all stopped one step to soon thinking they had the answer.


----------



## Susan in VA

Good for you, BTackitt!  Too many don't seem to be learning basic math anymore.  You know how when you shop and something costs, say, $10.04...  if you're paying cash you give them a twenty and four pennies...  and more often than not the cashier just doesn't get what they're supposed to give back, nor why anyone would pay that way.


----------



## Susan in VA

Richard, the language_ is_ powerful, and the complexity of English is what gives it such richness and flexibility.

I spent many years proofreading too... that and translating... one never breaks the habit!


----------



## Annalog

Susan in VA said:


> Good for you, BTackitt! Too many don't seem to be learning basic math anymore. You know how when you shop and something costs, say, $10.04... if you're paying cash you give them a twenty and four pennies... and more often than not the cashier just doesn't get what they're supposed to give back, nor why anyone would pay that way.


Or when something is $10.76 and you give them a twenty, a one, and a penny. Last week that resulted in a surprised look followed by a smile.


----------



## Laurie

Recently got a postcard notice in the mail from a local college, telling us to register early for SPING classes.


----------



## geoffthomas

Richard,
You will find it interesting (perhaps) to know that a co-worker of mine who is originally from Vietnam and is now a U.S. citizen shares your opinion.  He is most emphatic about English needing to be the National Language.  Even though he still has problems with it now and then.  He is constantly trying to understand nuances and to improve his speech.  He believes that it is wrong for anyone to become a citizen or have a drivers license who cannot speak English well.  And don't even start on having signs in Spanish around him.

I will admit that I agree with him.  But it is always interesting to see recent (10 years ago for him) citizens be so committed to their new country and it's language.

So shame on the guy with the Doctorate.

Just sayin.....


----------



## pidgeon92

Must resurrect thread. This completes me:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/misspelling


----------



## geoffthomas

I like the oatmeal on misspellings.

Thanks for that.


----------



## Jeff

I'm currently reading a book by a best-selling author who uses grammar that's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Yet, in the several dozen reviews I read, no one complained - so maybe it's just me. Here are some examples:

She fisted her hands...
She scrunched her face...
She logiced it out... 
Mentally he scrabbled for an answer...
He buffed his face...
It knocked the wind clean out of her...
His heart thwacked...
He firmed his expression into that of a...
Clamping down his breathing he listened to the skid of his heart.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

I totally hate to hear the phrases:

"I'm uncomfortable with that."
"Does that make you uncomfortable?"
"That makes me uncomfortable."

Why don't they just say:

"That makes me sick!!!!"
"Does that make you feel sick?"
"That makes me sick!!!!"

  The best I can come up with an explanation for the rise of this 'uncomfortable' situation is that more and more people are seeing therapists. I remember when my first therapist said "So, Mr. Carroll, I see that talking about


Spoiler



your sex life


 makes you uncomfortable." I responded something like "No,


Spoiler



hemmmmirhoidals


 make me uncomfortable, my


Spoiler



sex life just sux


!"


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> She logiced it out...


I don't much care for the other ones, but this one isn't even a word!  How does this stuff make it into print? Best-selling author, harrrrumph.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan, it's all part of the Plot To Make All Language PC. 

I said recently to some other moms at DD's school that DD's dad's dad had died. I got a bunch of shocked looks (not at the death, mind you, that had been expected), and several seconds of silence. Then this busybody soccer mom other parent gives me a saccharine smile and says pointedly "when did he _pass away_, dear?" Egad. When did the statement that someone died become impolite??


----------



## BasicGreatGuy

Jeff said:


> I'm currently reading a book by a best-selling author who uses grammar that's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. Yet, in the several dozen reviews I read, no one complained - so maybe it's just me. Here are some examples:
> 
> She fisted her hands...
> She scrunched her face...
> She logiced it out...
> Mentally he scrabbled for an answer...
> He buffed his face...
> It knocked the wind clean out of her...
> His heart thwacked...
> He firmed his expression into that of a...
> Clamping down his breathing he listened to the skid of his heart.


It must not make her no nevermind Jeff.


----------



## Jeff

[quote author=The Money Times - Jaspreet Virk]
*Nexus One to hot up competition in smartphone market*​
New York, January 3 -- Google has already established its foothold in the booming mobile phone market. Extending its presence in the arena, Google is now gearing up to take on the smartphone market.
[/quote]


----------



## Susan in VA

Guess I'll go hot up some water for my morning tea.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

You know, that odd usage(nouns made into verbs) is . . . . attention getting.  So something like that once or twice will bring emphasis to a given situation.  But using it continually as did the author quoted would just get annoying.  Once, it's a quirk; a couple of times it's an idiosyncrasy; more than that and it's bad habit.

Worst thing is the writer probably thinks it makes him/her seem hip and cool. . . . . .


----------



## Jeff

Ann in Arlington said:


> But using it continually as did the author quoted would just get annoying.


It got so annoying that I didn't finish the last few chapters of the book. That's rare for me.


----------



## Trilby

Although I am sure I make spelling and other errors, I will post my pet peeves as well. These are more spoken errors than anything...

My Mom will say "helicofter" Where she got that I have no idea!

I have a Brother who will say, "Chimdee" for "Chimney". Even when I have repeated the word back to him in our conversation, he will continue to say it wrong. 

My Niece will say "Libary" and what gets me about that one is, that she will announce before saying the word that she knows she's saying it wrong, so don't make fun of her. Well if you KNOW you're saying it wrong, why not work on correcting that? lol 

Then there are Tv News men and women, who will say "There's an accident at eggzit 10" What on earth is an "eggzit"? Also I've heard them say "There's an avent at the..." Avent? EVENT! 

Well I could go on and on, but I'll stop. lol


----------



## summerteeth

There is a lady who used to work at my company who would say "acks" instead of ask.  It drove me bonkers! 

And my grandmother pronounces the candy company Nestle incorrectly.  She calls it "nessel".


----------



## Sandpiper

summerteeth said:


> There is a lady who used to work at my company who would say "acks" instead of ask. It drove me bonkers!


That's not too uncommon.


----------



## Sandpiper

There are two or three or four words I always have to check for spelling. I just can't remember which spelling. Anyone have a "trick" for remembering the correct one?

definitely - definately

separate - seperate

occasion - occassion (no combo of single - double letters looks right to me)

Finally, when to use _effect_ and _affect_? HELP! Simple something to remember which.


----------



## Mike D. aka jmiked

Sandpiper said:


> separate - seperate


There's "a rat" in the middle of the word. 

Mike


----------



## Susan in VA

Sandpiper said:


> There are two or three or four words I always have to check for spelling. I just can't remember which spelling. Anyone have a "trick" for remembering the correct one?


Actually I think that the link that pidgeon posted on the previous page of this thread addressed several of those... in a way that was meant to be funny, but maybe it will help you remember some of them.


----------



## Sandpiper

Thanks, Mike and Susan and Verena. I think _definitely_ may stick now. I hope. Have to think of something to help me remember _ocassion_.

I looked at the other page. I'm surprised _to_ and _too_ wasn't on it. I don't have any trouble with those.

Here's something else. It's just the English language? "The tree whose branches were broken was about to fall." A tree is not a _who_. Is there any other way of saying something like that in all instances -- where _whose_ is used but doesn't refer to a person? It always bothers me when I hear or read it.


----------



## pidgeon92

I would phrase it more like this:

The tree with the broken branches is about to fall.


----------



## OliviaD

summerteeth said:


> There is a lady who used to work at my company who would say "acks" instead of ask. It drove me bonkers!


I work around a number of people who say this, but I thought they were saying 'axe' and when they say it, it always makes me smile. For example: 'I'm gonna go axe the boss and see if that changes his mind.' I always say 'I'm sure it will!'


----------



## Jeff

Sandpiper said:


> Here's something else. It's just the English language? "The tree whose branches were broken was about to fall." A tree is not a _who_. Is there any other way of saying something like that in all instances -- where _whose_ is used but doesn't refer to a person? It always bothers me when I hear or read it.


Sometimes who when relating to an inanimate object sounds right:

"Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit Of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste Brought death into the World..." ~ John Milton

"I hate ingratitude more in a man than lying, vainness, babbling, drunkenness, or any taint of vice whose strong corruption inhabits our frail blood." ~ William Shakespeare


----------



## Sandpiper

My problem . . . it never sounds right to me. An inanimate object is not a _who_.


----------



## Susan in VA

Sandpiper, does it make a difference when it's an _abstract _object? In those examples, both the "forbidden tree" and the "vice" aren't ordinary inanimate objects but abstractions, and maybe that's why it sounds perfectly fine (to me) in those examples. If I said "the tree whose branch I chopped off yesterday needs more pruning", it sounds "off" to me too, because it's really just a _tree_.


----------



## Jeff

Sandpiper said:


> My problem . . . it never sounds right to me. An inanimate object is not a _who_.


I'm not disagreeing with you; you're probably right. However, because inanimate objects can take possession as in: "The tree's leaves are green...", it's easy for me to accept "The tree whose leaves are green."


----------



## summerteeth

OliviaD said:


> I work around a number of people who say this, but I thought they were saying 'axe' and when they say it, it always makes me smile. For example: 'I'm gonna go axe the boss and see if that changes his mind.' I always say 'I'm sure it will!'


I had not heard this until recently, I was unaware that it was common!


----------



## Sandpiper

Jeff said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you; you're probably right. However, because inanimate objects can take possession as in: "The tree's leaves are green...", it's easy for me to accept "The tree whose leaves are green."


And I'm not disagreeing. I guess _whose_, as you say, simply indicates possession -- belonging to a human or inanimate object. But the _who_ part of it says human to me.


----------



## pidgeon92

summerteeth said:


> I had not heard this until recently, I was unaware that it was common!


I used to hear it all the time when I was working. Drove me bonkers.


----------



## Sandpiper

One word -- phonetics.  I'm so thankful for that waaaaay back in grade school.


----------



## patrisha w.

summerteeth said:


> There is a lady who used to work at my company who would say "acks" instead of ask. It drove me bonkers!
> 
> And my grandmother pronounces the candy company Nestle incorrectly. She calls it "nessel".


When I was a child in England, we would always say Nessle. That was the way everyone pronounced it...

Patrisha


----------



## patrisha w.

Sandpiper said:


> There are two or three or four words I always have to check for spelling. I just can't remember which spelling. Anyone have a "trick" for remembering the correct one?
> 
> definitely - definately
> 
> separate - seperate
> 
> occasion - occassion (no combo of single - double letters looks right to me)
> 
> Finally, when to use _effect_ and _affect_? HELP! Simple something to remember which.


 There is a rat in sepARATe is how my then-5th grade son told me to remember it...
Patrisha


----------



## patrisha w.

Susan in VA said:


> Brendan, it's all part of the Plot To Make All Language PC.
> 
> I said recently to some other moms at DD's school that DD's dad's dad had died. I got a bunch of shocked looks (not at the death, mind you, that had been expected), and several seconds of silence. Then this busybody soccer mom other parent gives me a saccharine smile and says pointedly "when did he _pass away_, dear?" Egad. When did the statement that someone died become impolite??


My sister and I were in agreement about that. Before she died, she arranged her own memorial---music and speeches. Her husband read something that began, "You are all here because I am dead. No, I haven't passed away. Accept it, I am dead!" Of course, we all laughed because it was so typical of her. I have borrowed it for my memorial!

Patrisha


----------



## Susan in VA

patrisha #150 said:


> When I was a child in England, we would always say Nessle. That was the way everyone pronounced it...
> 
> Patrisha


Doesn't make it right...

Nor is it the often-heard "_nest-lee_". It's "_nest-lay_".

Sorry, I'm fussy about this one because my dad used to work for them when I was a kid. (Fond memories of the same-day-fresh-but-broken chocolate that employees brought home....)


----------



## Trilby

summerteeth said:


> There is a lady who used to work at my company who would say "acks" instead of ask. It drove me bonkers!
> 
> And my grandmother pronounces the candy company Nestle incorrectly. She calls it "nessel".


That reminded me of something my Mom said years ago, she called Smucker's,..... Smucklers! lol I fell over laughing!


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Doesn't make it right...
> 
> Nor is it the often-heard "_nest-lee_". It's "_nest-lay_".
> 
> Sorry, I'm fussy about this one because my dad used to work for them when I was a kid. (Fond memories of the same-day-fresh-but-broken chocolate that employees brought home....)


OK then, do you remember the chocolate Moose that used to advertise for Nestle's Quik? He said "N-E-S-T-L-E-S. Nest-lees makes the very best
C
H
O
C
L
A
T
E" I dropped the word like that because the moose had a very deep baritone voice and he would go way down on the last word. A fond childhood memory of mine, Miss Susan, and that moose worked for Nestle's, didn't he? Are you telling me now that Nestle's was not coming clean with us way back then? I believe we should start a congressional investigation... we need a committee... a few million dollars and we can get to the bottom of this!!


----------



## Ann in Arlington

I'm a Hershey girl, myself.  Nestle never quite did it for me.  Though, I must admit, they're the only kind of chocolate chips I buy.

And, Brendan, did you notice you passed 1500 posts?


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> OK then, do you remember the chocolate Moose that used to advertise for Nestle's Quik? He said "N-E-S-T-L-E-S. Nest-lees makes the very best
> C
> H
> O
> C
> L
> A
> T
> E" I dropped the word like that because the moose had a very deep baritone voice and he would go way down on the last word. A fond childhood memory of mine, Miss Susan, and that moose worked for Nestle's, didn't he? Are you telling me now that Nestle's was not coming clean with us way back then? I believe we should start a congressional investigation... we need a committee... a few million dollars and we can get to the bottom of this!!


LOL! I do indeed remember that moose. But he was on _U.S. _TV ads. When we were a "Nestle family", it was at their HQ in Vevey. (And no, my dad was NOT the Swiss counterpart of the moose.)


----------



## Susan in VA

Ann in Arlington said:


> I'm a Hershey girl, myself. Nestle never quite did it for me.


That may be because most of the Nestle chocolate sold here isn't all that fresh...

But Hershey's uses a cocoa that's too acidic or something, so their chocolate always leaves a bitter aftertaste for me. AND they make everything with corn syrup.

I'll go with Lindt as the winner... and Sprengel.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Susan in VA said:


> That may be because most of the Nestle chocolate sold here isn't all that fresh...
> 
> But Hershey's uses a cocoa that's too acidic or something, so their chocolate always leaves a bitter aftertaste for me. AND they make everything with corn syrup.
> 
> I'll go with Lindt as the winner... and Sprengel.


See, I LIKE the bitter.  When I make hot cocoa from the recipe on the can I use about half the sugar they call for. When we lived in England Cadbury's was all the rage, especially their 'Flake'. I just thought it tasted like stale, dry, sugary cardboard.

Hmmm. . . .maybe we should start a chocolate thread. . . .or. . . .come to think of it. . . . .I'd be surprised if there wasn't one around here somewhere already!


----------



## Susan in VA

There are at least two already.  

I don't care for Cadbury either...  except for their Brazil nuts in chocolate bar.  But English sweets in general....  as a child Quality Street chocolates were a basic food group!  And to this day my all-time favorite candy bar is a Crunchie (and now World Market carries them, yay!)


----------



## Jeff




----------



## Trilby

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


>


Chocolate-related detours shouldn't count as hijacking. 

(If that's not a rule, it should be.)


----------



## Mike D. aka jmiked

How about people using quotes, caps, or underlines for book titles when everyone knows you italicize them.     

Does that count as grammar?


Mike
(who tends to overuse parentheses)


----------



## BTackitt

Ann in Arlington said:


> Hmmm. . . .maybe we should start a chocolate thread. . . .or. . . .come to think of it. . . . .I'd be surprised if there wasn't one around here somewhere already!


Here ya go Ann
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,9857.125.html


----------



## Jeff

Cobbie said:


> I toured the Nestle factory in Broc, Switzerland...delicious samples.
> 
> Okay, Jeff, my grammar pet peeve which I'm afraid is becoming the norm is "me and him went..." or "him and Bob saw..."


Hooray. Back on topic. Half-way.

Which is correct?

A) George and I are friends. 
B) George and me are friends.

Answer:


Spoiler



Neither. I hate George.


----------



## BTackitt

grammatically A is correct, but I don't know any Georges.


----------



## loonlover

summerteeth said:


> There is a lady who used to work at my company who would say "acks" instead of ask. It drove me bonkers!


I worked with a woman who said she wanted to "acks" a "querstion". The r in question made it all the more annoying.


----------



## loonlover

jmiked said:


> How about people using quotes, caps, or underlines for book titles when everyone knows you italicize them.


I think I remember being taught to underline Book TItles. Of course, that was long before computers and even the use of typewriters in English class. Typewriting classes were only taken by students who planned on going into business. If you were a college prep student - too bad.


----------



## mlewis78

loonlover said:


> I think I remember being taught to underline Book TItles. Of course, that was long before computers and even the use of typewriters in English class. Typewriting classes were only taken by students who planned on going into business. If you were a college prep student - too bad.


I learned that in school too. I don't think it was in a typing class but it was an instruction for writing papers. It may still hold for school papers, but for general use, as in these boards, there is no rule, although I like to set off the title with either bold, italics, underlining or a combination. When you see underlining in an article online, it tells you it's a link.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Before computers it was underline a long work -- book or newspaper or magazine --and put quotes around a shorter work -- short story or article. Can't blame folks who stick to that. . . .I don't think it's incorrect, it's just that italics are also correct for a longer work. . . maybe a shorter work, too. . . . .I haven't read _The Elements of Style_ since it was updated for the computer age.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

loonlover said:


> I worked with a woman who said she wanted to "acks" a "querstion". The r in question made it all the more annoying.


Yep, I forgot about that and people who call pencils 'princils' and say 'irrevalant' instead of irrelevant and I know I probably misspelled those.  The only one I'll forgive is former President Bush calling Nuclear 'Nukular', but that's because he is a fellow Texan who lives not far from here and could come and open up a


Spoiler



can of whoopa___


 on me.


----------



## F1Wild

Watched a new designer intern show on HGTV Sat night.  The last challenge (to decide who would get booted off) was to design a condo complex name, logo & scheme.  One intern came up with VR One.  When asked what this meant he said, VR One, like "ve are one".  The judges clarified by asking if he meant "we" are one, not "ve" and he agreed but then insisted that VR was correct and acceptable.

OK, I understand it was probably a pronunciation & cultural thing, but he was (out now) in a contest to work for a MAJOR design firm.


----------



## Susan in VA

Another one....

I realize this one has become somewhat acceptable (to some people, at least), but it still annoys me when people say nauseous when they mean nauseated.  It's not the same thing.  There are TWO words for a reason.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Another one....
> 
> I realize this one has become somewhat acceptable (to some people, at least), but it still annoys me when people say nauseous when they mean nauseated. It's not the same thing. There are TWO words for a reason.


Oh, that's one of my wife's pet peeves too.


----------



## Susan in VA

Probably the same people that think there are three "d"s in drowned.


----------



## Trilby

Some mispronounced words are due to the accent people have. For instance people from the South can say *shrimp* which is one syllable and make it a two or three syllable word. lol I watch Paula Deen on the Food Network, lol


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

Cobbie said:


> Are there two "r"s in daughter? Some people think so.


Speaking of "r"s. Central Illinois folks usually put one in Washington. It's Warshington. And "I'm going to warsh some clothes." I always find it amusing to hear my relatives say it that-a-way. 
But then again, my friends say I come back from a visit home with a definite twang in my voice!


----------



## Susan in VA

All those extra "r"s that are lost at the library in February have to go _somewhere._....


----------



## Carol Hanrahan




----------



## BTackitt

I knew someone who used to say Warter... for water.. but in his defense, that is how he thought it was spelled too.. he has since seen the error of his ways and changed both.
and my poor dad.... CANNOT physically say words with oil in them unless he screws his face up something awful and slows the word WAY down.. everything comes out awl instead.. gonna go put awl in the car, did the eggs bawl yet? his whoe family is from central TX.. but HE is the only one with an accent still..


----------



## Brenda Carroll

I had a fellow once who worked for me who was from Louisiana. He always fried his chicken in 'Earl' which was much less greasy than frying it in 'Shirtning'. No way he could have ever changed those two words because if he did, he would have had to change the way he say 'Ernges' (you know those round fruits that grow on citrus trees in Florida and other _normally_ warm places?) and pork loins that always seemed somehow not quite Kosher when it came out as 'pork lions' (he spelled it that way, too). We loved him and his chicken anyway.


----------



## PolkSDA

Criticizing people's grammar and spelling? Wat a bunch of loosers. 

My personal pet peeves:

1. Let me axe you a question. Very common vernacular in the African-American community. We have a woman that does phone support that uses that constantly, and it drives me nuts. It strikes me as unpolished an unprofessional, yet I dare not say anything about it for political correctness reasons. I just get to smolder.

2. "Irregardless." This one bugs me more than anything else. It's not a word. I don't care if it has been added to the dictionary to accommodate lazy speakers and spellers. It doesn't exist. EOD.

Then there are spelling preferences that are due to when or where you were raised. They're not errors per se, but some editors and spellcheckers attempt to correct you to death. For example, I use all of the following when I write:

theatre instead of theater
sceptre instead of scepter
grey instead of gray
colour instead of color
humour instead of humor

I'm regularly told I'm wrong, but the carmudgeon in me refuses to change (and I'm a young carmudgeon, only in my 40s... carmudgeon is more a state of mind I think  ).


----------



## Susan in VA

PolkSDA said:


> Then there are spelling preferences that are due to when or where you were raised. They're not errors per se, but some editors and spellcheckers attempt to correct you to death. For example, I use all of the following when I write:
> 
> theatre instead of theater
> sceptre instead of scepter
> grey instead of gray
> colour instead of color
> humour instead of humor
> 
> I'm regularly told I'm wrong, but the carmudgeon in me refuses to change (and I'm a young carmudgeon, only in my 40s... carmudgeon is more a state of mind I think  ).


None of those are wrong... they're British usage rather than American... and probably the preferred spelling in many other English-speaking countries as well.

And wanting to post in this thread kind of implies being at least part-time curmudgeonly....


----------



## geoffthomas

PolkSDA said:


> I'm regularly told I'm wrong, but the carmudgeon in me refuses to change (and I'm a young carmudgeon, only in my 40s... carmudgeon is more a state of mind I think  ).


and it clearly does not bother you to spell curmudgeon, carmudgeon, huh?
Just sayin.....


----------



## Brenda Carroll

PolkSDA said:


> Criticizing people's grammar and spelling? Wat a bunch of loosers.
> I'm regularly told I'm wrong, but the carmudgeon in me refuses to change (and I'm a young carmudgeon, only in my 40s... carmudgeon is more a state of mind I think  ).


Heeey, did you spell curmudgeon wrong?   

OK, so GT beat me to it.


----------



## Carol Hanrahan

I think you find carmudgeons on the freeway in southern California.  Mostly during rush hour.


----------



## F1Wild

PolkSDA said:


> theatre instead of theater
> sceptre instead of scepter
> grey instead of gray
> colour instead of color
> humour instead of humor


My hubby is from the UK (plus we lived there for some time) and so I have had to add all of these and many, many more to my spell-check dictionary, ie.: tyre, metre, etc.!

Interestingly, I use both American & British spelling while on forums, like a Formula 1 one with an international (with very few Americans) crowd, but was told by a "patriotic" acquaintance that the "next time you decide to massacre the American language you should leave the country and stay away". Nice, huh?

I think any and all "correct" spelling is considered acceptable when online.


----------



## F1Wild

Carol Hanrahan said:


> I think you find carmudgeons on the freeway in southern California. Mostly during rush hour.


And all along I thought they were all visiting here (in AZ) for the winter. I'll gladly share!!


----------



## akagriff

These words are on my 5th graders spelling list this week.

Shouldn't've
Couldn't've 
Wouldn't've

I contacted my son's teacher and asked if he could have words to replace these.  Her reponse:  These are words that are part of the district curriculum and they can be Googled.  After a third email to this teacher, she finally agreed to remove these words from his test and replaced the words with shouldn't, couldn't and wouldn't.  
Now, my son's school has a high percentage of ESL students.  These children are going to be tested on the nonsensical words because someone, somewhere has them on a list on the internet.


----------



## Sandpiper

Those "words" were on a spelling test?  I have never . . . .  Who dreamed up those?     Is there such thing as double contraction?


----------



## F1Wild

There are such things as "double contractions" - as I had to look this up myself for proof. I guess these are actual words, but why the heck confuse kids this way
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_double_contractions


----------



## BTackitt

dear merciful heavens.


----------



## akagriff

F1-  I was also able to find these words on Wictionary.  C'mon, y'all, ain't.  I'm not certain that this is a very reliable resource. 
I hope the words are not on next weeks list.   



Signed:  The Contraction Police


----------



## BTackitt

there was also a list of 3 words that are TRIPLE contractions.. }}shudder{{


----------



## F1Wild

akagriff said:


> F1- I was also able to find these words on Wictionary. C'mon, y'all, ain't. I'm not certain that this is a very reliable resource.
> I hope the words are not on next weeks list.
> 
> Signed: The Contraction Police


Oh I'm completely with you on this one - I am so old school when it comes to this type of thing (thank goodness we have no kids, aside from the furry ones who will never learn proper anything)!! I just was so amazed I actually found several entries (some even worthy) on double contractions. Personal & IMOO, this shouldn't be part of your kids every day grammar/English lessons. They should be the funny, weird, quirky things semi-taught the last week of school before summer recess - just for fun.


----------



## Jeff

Speaking of contractions, has anyone noticed a recent trend to vocally hyphenate some contractions with a hard, or perhaps even a spoken double "D"?

For example: "I *did-dent* do it."


----------



## Ann in Arlington

that's not recent. . . . .I've heard it for years. . . . .usually used when the person wants to emphasize that they really didn't do it.


----------



## Jeff

Ann in Arlington said:


> that's not recent. . . . .I've heard it for years. . . . .usually used when the person wants to emphasize that they really didn't do it.


Oh. Thanks.


----------



## Susan in VA

akagriff said:


> These words are on my 5th graders spelling list this week.
> 
> Shouldn't've
> Couldn't've
> Wouldn't've


At least they didn't say "shouldn't _of_".....


----------



## mlewis78

We learned double contractions in elementary school.  Wasn't a big part of the phonetics an spelling.  But those words are in the language.  I think we had to learn how to transcribe to the words that they abbreviate and do it the other way around.

I've heard that phonetics aren't taught any more.  Is that so?  I think it helped me a lot with spelling and understanding correct English.


----------



## Sandpiper

I'm thankful I learned phonetics. (I have vague memories of repeating and repeating the sounds of letters.) I can remember a college grad (I'm not) who I worked with in the '70s who could not figure out a word as she was reading. Me -- _Sound it out._ Oh, yeah. No problem. She hadn't learned phonetics so had no clue.


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> At least they didn't say "shouldn't _of_".....


Maybe we could resurrect an old word (I know it's not exactly the same original meaning, but we've stopped using it and it would be shame to let it go derelict) and then we could invent two new ones to correct this problem:

Shouldn't've = shant
Couldn't've = chant 
Wouldn't've = whant

As far as words like did'dent for didn't, we could put a limit on the usage such as did'dent can only be used by persons under the age of 18 or some such...


----------



## Jeff

Brendan Carroll said:


> As far as words like did'dent for didn't, we could put a limit on the usage such as did'dent can only be used by persons under the age of 18 or some such...


I'll agree wholeheartedly, if your limit is to preschoolers.


----------



## BOZ

"Reccomend Me a Book" - a discussion topic, here on KindleBoards.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> As far as words like did'dent for didn't, we could put a limit on the usage such as did'dent can only be used by persons under the age of 18 or some such...


That was my thought when Ann said she'd heard it... _Yeah, but only from pouting kids!_ 

And _shan't _is a perfectly nice word! It goes so well with foot-stamping and then flouncing out of the room in a huff.


----------



## PolkSDA

Brendan Carroll said:


> Heeey, did you spell curmudgeon wrong?
> 
> OK, so GT beat me to it.


Well colour me embarrassed. 

All these years I've been spelling the word incorrectly. I think it stems from (1) "curmudgeon" being an infrequentlyencountered word, and (2) at least around here the pronunciation of the word is KAR, rather than KER. I never gave it any thought.

Oh well. Old dog: new trick. Yadda, yadda, yadda.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> And _shan't _is a perfectly nice word!


My grandparents used _shall_ and _shan't_ but I never quite grasped the distinction between those words and _will_ and _won't_.


----------



## Susan in VA

Hmmm... I'm not sure of the rule (if there is one), but I would use _shall_ only when speaking about myself. Otherwise it sounds like a biblical decree.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Hmmm... I'm not sure of the rule (if there is one), but I would use _shall_ only when speaking about myself. Otherwise it sounds like a biblical decree.


Thou shall not use _shall_ only when speaking of thine self.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Thou shall not use _shall_ only when speaking of thine self.


Or you could turn the meaning on its head by adding a comma after _shall._


----------



## Jeff

...or a period.


----------



## Susan in VA

Well, yes.

Speaking of commas, the mailman just brought your book!    I'll start on it tonight.


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Speaking of commas, the mailman just brought your book!  I'll start on it tonight.


Okay, I deserved that.


----------



## Susan in VA

Oh no, it wasn't meant that way at all!!


----------



## geoffthomas

Sandpiper said:


> I'm thankful I learned phonetics. (I have vague memories of repeating and repeating the sounds of letters.) I can remember a college grad (I'm not) who I worked with in the '70s who could not figure out a word as she was reading. Me -- _Sound it out._ Oh, yeah. No problem. She hadn't learned phonetics so had no clue.


In my day/area we called it phonics.
And yeah - it has been INvaluable.
I cannot tell you how much this has enriched my life - seriously.
My older sister did not get it because they had not started it yet. And over the years I have seen school districts swing back and forth with it. It seems that it is not now taught. What a shame. And the young people are being robbed. It is such a valuable tool.

Just sayin....


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Oh no, it wasn't meant that way at all!!


You should have meant it; I'm awful. Everyone I know hates me because I use commas to show pauses in speech rather than as they should be used. Gertie edited La Malinche for me and was ready to kill me by the time she finished. My own son ends up throwing my books across the room.

I guess I'll never understand why one needs a comma between yes and sir. "Yes, sir" vs. "Yes sir." Who talks that way?


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Or you could turn the meaning on its head by adding a comma after _shall._





Jeff said:


> Thou shall not use _shall_ only when speaking of thine self.


OK, so now I'm confused. Is shant related to shalt? With shant meaning 'oh, no you did'dent!' and shalt meaning 'oh, yes you did!' Unless you really are speaking Biblically (my computer offered bucolically for the aforementioned word  ) and then you might say again 'oh, no you did'dent by saying 'thou shalt not'?   What the fizzizzle does bucolic mean anyway, Miss Susan?


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> You should have meant it; I'm awful. Everyone I know hates me because I use commas to show pauses in speech rather than as they should be used. Gertie edited La Malinche for me and was ready to kill me by the time she finished. My own son ends up throwing my books across the room.
> 
> I guess I'll never understand why one needs a comma between yes and sir. "Yes, sir" vs. "Yes sir." Who talks that way?


In my mind I'm hearing a difference between "Yes, sir." and "Yes sir!"

I think that when writing speech, there's a bit more leeway in comma usage because the speech already reflects the characters' background, regionalisms, national origin, and so on.... if they don't speak grammatically and their speech patterns are somewhat non-standard, then an extra comma here or there just makes it look as though the character is taking a breath in the middle of the sentence.

And I also think that throwing books is a worse crime than, er, creative comma-usage.


----------



## Susan in VA

Brendan Carroll said:


> OK, so now I'm confused. Is shant related to shalt? With shant meaning 'oh, no you did'dent!' and shalt meaning 'oh, yes you did!' Unless you really are speaking Biblically (my computer offered bucolically for the aforementioned word  ) and then you might say again 'oh, no you did'dent by saying 'thou shalt not'?   What the fizzizzle does bucolic mean anyway, Miss Susan?


Brendan, I think I need more caffeine before figuring out your posts.  Or maybe a double martini.

(And why ask _me_? I've never used the word _bucolic_ in my life! Something about farms and idyllic conditions, but if YOUR computer suggested it, then YOUR computer can go look it up. )


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> ...creative comma-usage.


Shall we call it _uncommon comma usage_ and kill several posts with one?


----------



## Susan in VA

Why am I suddenly thinking of busily writing Keebler elves?


----------



## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Why am I suddenly thinking of busily writing Keebler elves?


Hmm. Something you're reading is uncommonly good? Or perhaps it left you up a tree.


----------



## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Hmm. Something you're reading is uncommonly good?


That it is. I'd best get back to it! Ten more minutes of KB while I finish my tea....


----------



## Brenda Carroll

Susan in VA said:


> Brendan, I think I need more caffeine before figuring out your posts.  Or maybe a double martini.
> 
> (And why ask _me_? I've never used the word _bucolic_ in my life! Something about farms and idyllic conditions, but if YOUR computer suggested it, then YOUR computer can go look it up. )


I tried to get my computer to look it up and the thing said it was busy unpacking its circuits after just having gotten home from a Holiday Ski Trip in the Apennines Mountains. Do you ever feel that your computer has a life of its own? Finished that double martini yet?


----------



## Susan in VA

When my computer develops a mind of its own, it's usually bad news.


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## mcblanchfield

Our you a high school graduate ?


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## Jeff

mcblanchfield said:


> Our you a high school graduate ?


Haha. Should I admit that I don't know what an OT is?

Where in New Mexico? I grew up in Albuquerque (when it had nothing but dirt roads).


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## Susan in VA

Jeff said:


> Haha. Should I admit that I don't know what an OT is?


I wondered about that too, but I suspect they were just out of "H"s.


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## mcblanchfield

Jeff said:


> Where in New Mexico?


Farmington


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## Jeff

mcblanchfield said:


> Farmington


You have the best of four beautiful States at your fingertips.


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## intinst

I ran across this and decided to post it here, not that it makes it alright to misspell words but...


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## Marguerite

I have seen this before and it always makes me laugh that I can read it.  Thanks for posting this.


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## Annalog

It is funny even if it seems unlikely that it is the result of research at Cambridge University (or Cmabrigde Uinervtisy ). I like the 2003 page by Matt Davis (MRC Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit) at Cambridge, UK in reference to this: http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/people/matt.davis/Cmabrigde/. Snopes.com status is Undetermined (http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/cambridge.asp) (EDIT: Link fixed.)


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## marianneg

Is it ever correct to say "try and," as in "I'm going to try and fix this"? It seems to me that what is really meant is "I'm going to try _to_" and a conjunction really wouldn't ever be appropriate in that context. I'm seeing this more and more, and it drives me crazy.


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## Brenda Carroll

I think you are right about the "to", but I'm not  a Grammar Nazi, I'm a Punkuashionist.


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## kwajkat

the one that drives me nuts is using me instead of I.  Jerry and me went......   Me and Jerry went.......... etc And when I hear newcasters use it ugh....... Maybe if they read more they would use correct english, then I realize more and more books are written that way....


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## NogDog

marianner said:


> Is it ever correct to say "try and," as in "I'm going to try and fix this"? It seems to me that what is really meant is "I'm going to try _to_" and a conjunction really wouldn't ever be appropriate in that context. I'm seeing this more and more, and it drives me crazy.


It is correct when writing dialog for a character who would speak like that.


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## NogDog

kwajkat said:


> the one that drives me nuts is using me instead of I. Jerry and me went...... Me and Jerry went.......... etc And when I hear newcasters use it ugh....... Maybe if they read more they would use correct english, then I realize more and more books are written that way....


Stop by the Grammar Pet Peeves thread for 52 pages of grammar no-nos.


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## marianneg

NogDog said:


> Stop by the Grammar Pet Peeves thread for 52 pages of grammar no-nos.


I know, I used to follow it before it died.

ETA: Oh, and good point about the dialog  I can accept some colloquialisms in speech, but if it's just background information or something it really irritates me.


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## NogDog

marianner said:


> I know, I used to follow it before it died.


That was really more directed at "kwajkat" and any new users here, lest this become another thread cataloging our peeves.


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## 4Katie

When did someone decide that singular nouns should have plural verbs? 'The couple are going to lunch' seriously makes my head hurt. You hear that kind of thing all the time now.


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## NogDog

4Katie said:


> When did someone decide that singular nouns should have plural verbs? 'The couple are going to lunch' seriously makes my head hurt. You hear that kind of thing all the time now.


In that it is being used as a collective noun, the answer is not either/or, but rather, "it depends": http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/pluralverbs.


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## Scheherazade

4Katie said:


> When did someone decide that singular nouns should have plural verbs? 'The couple are going to lunch' seriously makes my head hurt. You hear that kind of thing all the time now.


This is something they also do a lot in the UK. I can't think of any real good examples, but something like "The crowd are loving it." and the like. English in the UK is actually far more advanced than US English. It was actually quite a big deal back in the 18th and 19th century. We, as Americans (as I am one I can call us "we"), used many things to try to distance ourselves from mother England and language was one of the biggest and most overlooked. Folks over there routinely bewailed our use of the language, saying that we were killing it and the like. What we were really doing in most cases was bringing back older words that had fallen out of use.

So our English in the US is closer to Chaucer's English and theirs is far more advanced. Now, I'm not saying that advanced is necessarily a good thing, just look at the movement to change words like "through" and "night" to "thru" and "nite" (yes there's an actual movement, it's not just lazy restaurant chains). Sometimes you lose the soul of a language by trying to simplify it too much... sure "through" and "thru" sound the same, but I find the former much more pleasant to read.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked

I'm still trying to figure out why the Brits drop "the" from some phrases, i.e., "I'm going to University", and "I'm going to hospital". Other than customary usage, I haven’t been able to get any info on this.

I have noticed that they view corporations and such as plural, whereas we view them as singular: "Amazon do a great job" versus US usage "Amazon does a great job."


Mike


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## Susan in VA

marianner said:


> I know, I used to follow it before it died.


It _WHAT_?!? Perish the thought....  There will _always_ be more pet peeves to post.


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## Jeff

"Grammar Nazis" strikes me as disparaging toward anyone who cares about the proper use of the language.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked

Jeff said:


> "Grammar Nazis" strikes me as disparaging toward anyone who cares about the proper use of the language.


My view also.

Mike


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## Scheherazade

The term kind of relates though.  Folks who could be considered such want only the purest form of the language.  And I imagine the British dropping "the" in phrases such as "Going to University." is just part of their evolution in the language beyond our firmly Middle English rooted English.


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## Susan in VA

I don't think it's about the "purest" form at all  --  national and regional variations are all perfectly correct in their own settings.


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## Scheherazade

True.  I guess I meant more in accepted written grammar.  There are definitely regional differences that are accepted as perfectly normal by the people who live there that folks would raise their eyebrows at or even have difficulty understanding elsewhere.  It's funny, but the way the US was colonized means that we have smaller variances across a much larger area than Europe does over a much smaller one.  The east coast is where you see the strongest differences then they sort of blend as you go west where the people mingled as they settled new land.  It's quite possible to drive fifty miles in Britain and go from one dialect you can understand to one that is almost totally beyond comprehension... and both are technically English.


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## Susan in VA

Yes, that's true. Just as the U.S. _technically_ speaks English.


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## Jeff

Here in Texas we speak Texan.

There was another thread about colloquialisms that I can't find now. Any y'all recollect?


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## Susan in VA

Could this be the one you meant?

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,2932.msg65637.html#msg65637

I'm pretty sure there was also a newer one... or maybe it was just a meandering detour in some other thread?


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## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> Could this be the one you meant?


No, the thread I meant references regional U.S. words and expressions - something like Scheherazade's example of English variations in Great Britain.


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## Susan in VA

This one.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,6456.msg133250.html#msg133250


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## BTackitt

Susan - Queen of KB search engine!


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## Susan in VA

BTackitt said:


> Susan - Queen of KB search engine!


Ha! It may not have landed me any jobs, but paralegal training turns out to be good for something after all...


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## Annalog

The following sentence bothered me when I first read it:


> The beach looked to have been lashed by the sea in recent nights; it was strewn with shells and driftwood, mollusk skeletons and dead fish half eaten by whatever scavengers lived here.


My first thought was that mollusks don't have skeletons and my second thought was that their shells could be considered skeletons. Then I wondered why both shells and mollusk skeletons would be mentioned in the same sentence. I started reading in the dictionary in the Kindle (mollusk, skeleton, shells) and realized, based on the contents of the previous chapter, that the author could be referring to spent ammunition casings of various types. If so, then it makes sense to me. Would this have bothered anyone else?


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## Jeff

Annalog said:


> My first thought was that mollusks don't have skeletons and my second thought was that their shells could be considered skeletons. Then I wondered why both shells and mollusk skeletons would be mentioned in the same sentence. I started reading in the dictionary in the Kindle (mollusk, skeleton, shells) and realized, based on the contents of the previous chapter, that the author could be referring to spent ammunition casings of various types. If so, then it makes sense to me. Would this have bothered anyone else?


It's a very poorly constructed sentence. The use of "looked to have been" is clumsy and if the author meant "spent shell casings" that's what should have been said. Is there a mollusk that doesn't have an exoskeleton? Could any half eaten fish still be living? Typos and misspellings in books don't bother me at all. I can even excuse some occasional bad grammar but, to answer your question: this kind of writing would really bother me *a lot*.


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## Annalog

Jeff said:


> It's a very poorly constructed sentence. The use of "looked to have been" is clumsy and if the author meant "spent shell casings" that's what should have been said. Is there a mollusk that doesn't have an exoskeleton? Could any half eaten fish still be living? Typos and misspellings in books don't bother me at all. I can even excuse some occasional bad grammar but, to answer your question: this kind of writing would really bother me *a lot*.


I suspect it was the construction that first caught my attention as I know I had to go back to read the sentence again. This was in a paper book and caused me to attempt to use the nonexistent 5-way button to make a note and check the dictionary. I then reached for my Kindle instead.

Slugs and octopuses are in the phylum Mollusca. I think most of those do not have exoskeletons (or skeletons either ).


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## intinst

I hope the rest of the book was better, that sentence bothers me.


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## Annalog

I read that sentence near the beginning of chapter two very early this morning. I then stopped reading so that I could get ready for work. Yesterday I had to read some parts of chapter one more than once to understand the shifts in conversation subjects. 

The book has a 4 star rating on Amazon so I suspect that the rest will be better. I am glad I am reading a library copy. (The publisher has the price higher for the Kindle version than for the paperback version.) 

EDIT: I am now further along in the book. My initial reading of the sentence quoted earlier was correct. The "shell" reference was to seashells and the "mollusk skeleton" reference was both incorrect and redundant. I suppose that the intent is that there were quite a few seashells of various types.   

This sentence was not an isolated instance in the book.


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## OliviaD

Jeff said:


> Here in Texas we speak Texan.
> 
> Any y'all recollect?


I'll second that notion, cowboy. Mean my ol man was just talkin bout that very thang tother day and decided that morn one person would scratch their heads and say 'huh?' if they listened in on one o or git t'gethers. Specially if you was to throw in my ants and uncles and a bunch o cussin (or cousins if you prefer).   But my question is: Does this qualify as colloquialism, slang or whole nother language? Susan, whaddaya think?


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## Jeff

OliviaD said:


> Does this qualify as colloquialism, slang or whole nother language? Susan, whaddaya think?


Susan reads Texan very well.


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## Susan in VA

<is startled awake> What, who, me??

Olivia, I could just_ hear_ you in my head, twang and all. 

I don't know whether it qualifies as a "whole nother language", but sometimes I wonder whether Texas qualifies as a whole nother _country_....


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## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> <is startled awake> What, who, me??


You recently edited pages and pages of "Texan" without asking a single question. Well - you did change a Texas Ranger's "I should _of_ known" to "I should _have_ known", but that doesn't count.


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## Susan in VA

I don't usually suggest a change for what characters _say_ unless it seems that something about their speech pattern is accidental (like when it's just a typo).

Seems to me that that was the more well-spoken of the Rangers, wasn't it? If I'm remembering the right spot, it just didn't seem to fit with the rest of his speech pattern... then again, I probably failed to consider that this was _Texan_ speech. 

You'll have to forgive me; there are few Texans around here... and I've spent less than two weeks there myself, and then mostly talking to non-natives.


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## Jeff

Susan in VA said:


> You'll have to forgive me; there are few Texans around here... and I've spent less than two weeks there myself, and then mostly talking to non-natives.


You're absolutely forgiven and I apologize for whatever I said that required you to ask. You'll note that unlike some people that we all know, I shamelessly suck-up to my editors.


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## Susan in VA

With or without lip balm?


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## Jeff

With or without the chimpanzee?


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## Susan in VA

I'm not _that _animal-friendly.


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## kdawnbyrd

I judged a total of 13 entries for two different writing contests over the weekend. One of the contestants constantly substituted "there" for "their." Drove me crazy!


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## Jeff

This is the caption under a photo in today's LA Times:

[quote author=Los Angeles Times]The Rev. Franklin Graham prepares to leave the Pentagon, where he prayed on a sidewalk outside after having being disinvited inside because of earlier comments about other religions. (Cliff Owen, Associated Press / May 7, 2010)[/quote]

Sentence structure aside, is disinvited a word or should it be uninvited?


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## Annalog

Jeff said:


> Sentence structure aside, is disinvited a word or should it be uninvited?


It appears from the definitions in _The New Oxford American Dictionary_ on my K2 that someone who is uninvited was never invited in the first place while someone who is disinvited had received an invitation that was later cancelled or withdrawn.


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## Leslie

Jeff said:


> This is the caption under a photo in today's LA Times:
> 
> Sentence structure aside, is disinvited a word or should it be uninvited?


I think uninvited means you were never invited, but disinvited means that you were invited, but the invite was rescinded for some reason.

L


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## Leslie

Annalog said:


> It appears from the definitions in _The New Oxford American Dictionary_ on my K2 that someone who is uninvited was never invited in the first place while someone who is disinvited had received an invitation that was later cancelled or withdrawn.


Well good for me, looks like I had the def spot-on right out of my own little brain...LOL

L


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## Jeff

Ah-ha. Thanks. I never heard the word before and should have looked it up.


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## Annalog

Leslie said:


> Well good for me, looks like I had the def spot-on right out of my own little brain...LOL
> 
> L


Yay!for Leslie!


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## SerenityFL

Haven't read all 54 pages of this thread so maybe someone already wrote this:

It drives me nuts to see people, especially reporters who should know better, say or write, "to not".

"How many times have I told you to not cross the street without looking both ways?"

It should be:

"How many times have I told you not to cross the street without looking both ways?"

Shakespeare wrote:  "To be or not to be."  He did not write, "To be or to not be."

If you find that you can't say the sentence or phrase without using, "to not", then the entire sentence structure is incorrect.

Oh and please, everyone, please!!!!  It's eSpresso, not eXpresso.


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## Susan in VA

Why oh why do some people persist in using words of which they clearly do not know the meaning?

Isn't it better to have a normal-sized vocabulary and use it correctly than to put on airs and habitually throw out "big words" that -- oops -- mean something other than what the speaker thinks they do? Because _someone_ among the listeners (or readers, in this case) is going to know better, and realize that the speaker (or writer) is a windbag.


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