# Amazon trying to shut down Novelrank? UPDATE: Novelrank is gone.



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Update: Amazon indeed shut Novelrank down. I posted the latest info in a separate comment, further down the thread.

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From Facebook.










Eleven hours ago in a comment under the post, Mario, Novelrank's owner, said



> SalesRankExpress is fully functional and I'm working with its owner to make sure it stays that way.
> 
> I have no idea about the other rank tracking sites; for now, this seems linked to me personally.


Could, or would, Amazon try to shut Data Guy down too? After all, according to Amazon's above definition Data Guy is violating TOS as well. Data Guy pulls sales rank numbers and other info on an automated basis to estimate individual book unit sales and revenue.


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

I haven't visited Novelrank for years, but went there last night to set up scanning for a couple of titles of mine involved in promos. (I can't watch them during peak times, as it's middle of the night here in Australia.)

I guess Amazon is tightening the screws on affiliates earnings?


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Simon Haynes said:


> I haven't visited Novelrank for years, but went there last night to set up scanning for a couple of titles of mine involved in promos. (I can't watch them during peak times, as it's middle of the night here in Australia.)
> 
> I guess Amazon is tightening the screws on affiliates earnings?


Looks that way. It might also be related to their purge of book stuffers etc lately. They don't want anyone "cheating." At any rate, if this is a new harder-line policy then it will soon be hard to track sales rank via third parties.


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Well, this sucks. I use NR all the time. It's great for tracking your own stuff and what's happening in your genre. Or what/whoever you want to track, for that matter.

Here's the message on the site.



> On August 21st, Amazon decided that after 9 years, without warning, NovelRank violated their Terms of Use. They deleted a few thousand dollars of affiliate revenue I was due from the last year. They removed access to Canada and all Europe domains. Appeals were rejected.
> NovelRank costs about $3000/year for just the web server and earns less than $15,000/year total. It's free for anyone to use; it adds value for authors and doesn't take away from Amazon in any way. Truth be told, it promotes it. I don't know what's going to happen next, but my income has been dropped to $0, and this is my livelyhood. I just thought you should know.
> Regretfully,
> Mario Lurig


I think this underlines, bolds _and italicizes_ that having your entire business built on a platform you have no control over is never a good idea.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

John Twipnook said:


> Could, or would, Amazon try to shut Data Guy down too? After all, according to Amazon's above definition Data Guy is violating TOS as well. Data Guy pulls sales rank numbers and other info on an automated basis to estimate individual book unit sales and revenue.


The answer may depend upon how the data is harvested. It's my understanding that Data Guy harvests directly from the publicly available product page. How does Novelrank get its data?

I also get the impression that Novelrank uses affiliate links in some way. The issue may be an affiliate TOS one, not a data access one per se.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

This:


> I think this underlines, bolds and italicizes that having your entire business built on a platform you have no control over is never a good idea.


Jack Welch: Control Your Destiny or Someone Else Will

1) We have a rank tracking service we mostly use for customers' usage. We had to stop sharing it with our author clients because Amazon would keep blocking it

Basically, it's an hour by hour rank tracking service that shows you exactly how your book does during the promotion (and it keeps going after the promotion). It also includes rank tracking in the individual genres your book is in

Not sure why (too much transparency into sales patterns/sales rank movement; for no reason and just because it can; don't want anyone loading information from their webpages on sales data and trends)
Amazon started blocking it

To the point that we had to stop sharing it with author clients

As soon as we stopped sharing, Amazon stopped blocking it. So it was a very precise thing - Amazon did not want us sharing information on hour to hour sales rank trends with our author clients. They didn't want that transparency or data pattern analysis available to authors

1b) Also we can't release it as a product because we know that instantly Amazon will block it and disrupt the service. So there's a chilling effect on the ecosystem where lots of products you would get/benefit from are not released or don't get traction because the ecosystem actively tries to kill off anyone becoming popular in the ecosystem

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2) Similar thing with BookReport where Amazon keeps doing changes and inadvertently/advertently blocking it
You can see recent threads at KBoards about it

If it's happening both to NovelRank and to BookReport (two unrelated areas) with the only correlation being that both provide ease and transparency into seeing patterns and data intelligence, then there is a high chance it's related to removing access to Data and Transparency and nothing to do with Affiliate. Our rank tracking did not use affiliate tags and it was still blocked. only unblocked after we stopped sharing it with author clients

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3) The trend seems to be that if you depend on Amazon for something then be prepared for this: I think this underlines, bolds and italicizes that having your entire business built on a platform you have no control over is never a good idea

This:



> Here's the message on the site.
> 
> Quote
> On August 21st, Amazon decided that after 9 years, without warning, NovelRank violated their Terms of Use. They deleted a few thousand dollars of affiliate revenue I was due from the last year. They removed access to Canada and all Europe domains. Appeals were rejected.
> ...


This:



> https://the-digital-reader.com/2016/06/15/amazon-brings-the-hammer-down-on-discount-ebook-sites/


Both times the REASON/EXCUSE given is - Terms of Service violations or might be something related to affiliate

It's worth considering if it's the opposite. If affiliate is being used as a weapon against sites who are dependent on it

Launch Amazon's own marketing service. Remove all affiliates that are book promotion sites
Don't want sales rank data available to authors. Remove all affiliates that are rank tracking services

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4) It's all about making sure that the only ones with access to

sales data
sales trends
data
information

are Amazon

Same reason that Kindle Unlimited doesn't share how many people downloaded the book, only a vague figure like pages read

***************

5) A secondary reason is that Amazon seems to want to create a structure where the only people able to make revenue from the ebooks ecosystem are Amazon and authors who give exclusivity to Amazon. That's what all the trendlines point to
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6) I hope Mario finds a new livelihood.

Mario, build something for Apple or Microsoft ecosystems. There you see lots and lots of examples of very successful companies. They are evergreen oceans

Or build your own blue ocean product that doesn't require external dependency of a company (and therefore makes you vulnerable to their whims and fancies)

If you build something for Black Ocean of Death ecosystems like Facebook or Google or Amazon, then sooner or later they will kill you, themselves, regardless of whatever value you have contributed to the ecosystem

*********************************

7) Authors, please be very careful about investing completely in Black Ocean of Death ecosystems

It's a very good choice if you want to get marginalized and be at the mercy of the ecosystem owner

Here: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-self-published-authors-books-banned-no-reason-134606120.html
Here: https://www.thepetitionsite.com/672/842/958/demand-amazon-reinstate-jason-cipriano-and-michael-scott-earle-immediately/

*********************************

8. To show how ridiculous this is (Amazon wanting a share in EVERYTHING that happens in the ecosystem, and bullying to get it), consider that the first Kindle cover makers sued Amazon for breach of contract

Here: https://www.techspot.com/news/46835-amazon-sued-for-bullying-kindle-accessory-maker-m-edge.html

If even the company making covers for the Kindle isn't safe, you have to wonder

**********************************

9) So we have literally everyone in the ecosystem being bullied by a company with near monopoly power

- authors
- small publishers and publishers
- service providers like NovelRank
- book promotion sites
- the kindle cover maker

The icing on the cake would be if there were a whistleblower and/or data analysis proof that Amazon is illegally preventing the rise of indie authors via various means like

strong manipulation of bestseller lists
hiding indie author books that are doing well from search and lists
manipulating results of competing marketing services and sites to make internal marketing options better (delays before rank moves, books dropping very fast, after sales effects reduced, targeting authors who have complained in the past in future promotions, etc)
dropping lower priced books quicker than higher priced books
Bestseller lists are actually 'top grossing lists'
removing indie authors who rise too quickly from places like Also Bought and popularity search

How is it that a $0.99 book or box set from indie authors goes to Top 100 and falls out within a day, whereas a $14 ebook stays there for weeks
After the $0.99 book gets to Top 100 and gets so much visibility it should, logically, sell a lot more than the $5 and $10 and $14.99 ebooks around it, and stay for a LONG time in the Top 100. At least 5 to 10 days, logically even longer

If all this manipulation were to be found, and revealed via a whistleblower or via concrete data analysis, then perhaps authors would finally wake up - not to mention it'd make Europe go crazy in anticipation of giving Amazon the type of penalties it gave Google. Perhaps even FTC and Justice Department would do something


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Bill Hiatt said:


> The answer may depend upon how the data is harvested. It's my understanding that Data Guy harvests directly from the publicly available product page. How does Novelrank get its data?
> 
> I also get the impression that Novelrank uses affiliate links in some way. The issue may be an affiliate TOS one, not a data access one per se.


My understanding is that the core of both Novelrank and Data Guy's business comes down to running a computer program that automatically pulls sales rank numbers from user-specified (you input the ASIN) Amazon sales product pages. As we all know, the sales rank can and does change based upon how many purchases of that item occur. With a little skill, a person can come up with a product's (like a book's) ballpark unit and sales revenue figures by extrapolating how that product's sales rank numbers change over time. This time can be measured in fractions of a second.

Amazon permits its Amazon Affiliates to have a "key" to access any ASIN's sales rank and other data. The key is an Amazon Product Advertising API. They assign it to you. It's a number.

https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSECommerceService/latest/GSG/Welcome.html

With the API key comes privileges. Privileges include submitting automated requests for ASIN sales rank numbers and other data. But, you can't get the sales rank data without being an Amazon Associate. And to be an Amazon Associate, of course you have to sign the TOS.

I'm speculating, but I would assume that Data Guy has his own Amazon Product Advertising API. That's the key he uses to access Amazon's data. To my knowledge, the only off-the-shelf computer program that can use that key to amass the volume of data that Data Guy requires is actually made and sold by Novelrank. It is called Novelrank Enterprise. Perhaps that's what Data Guy uses.

https://enterprise.novelrank.com

Enterprise does not provide an API. That's on you, the user. All this to say, it looks like Amazon is getting testy about Novelrank playing around with their data. Amazon is throttling off Novelrank's API; shutting down Europe and Canada and all non-US domains. Mario, the owner of Novelrank, seems to think that soon Amazon will shut off his API for the US as well and he, Mario, will be out of business.

I don't know if or when Data Guy may suffer the same fate. I hope not. I like his reports.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

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Comment removed to protect content and data from the over-reaching TOS of new forum owner VerticalScope.

VerticalScope claims rights to any content posted to this site as theirs to disseminate beyond this site in any way they see fit.

Read the Terms of Service, both before AND after you've registered. At the time of this post, the new, more egregious TOS is available to read only after you've registered.

KBoards was purchased by VerticalScope 7.5 years and 4000 posts after I joined. VerticalScope will not allow that existing content to be permanently deleted, despite the fact I did not and do not agree to granting the new owners the rights to my content. 

***********


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## Rick Partlow (Sep 6, 2016)

Bill Hiatt said:


> I think this underlines, bolds and italicizes that having your entire business built on a platform you have no control over is never a good idea.


Unless you are selling epub copies of your book on a website you pay for, every single indie author has their business built on a platform they have no control over.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

Rick Partlow said:


> Unless you are selling epub copies of your book on a website you pay for, every single indie author has their business built on a platform they have no control over.


But if you are wide, then the actions of one vendor don't hurt you as much. Being wide and using multiple distributors gives you flexibility.


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## Rick Partlow (Sep 6, 2016)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But if you are wide, then the actions of one vendor don't hurt you as much. Being wide and using multiple distributors gives you flexibility.


I guess there are some people like that, but the majority of indie authors I speak to who are wide still get the bulk of their income from Amazon. if the Zon turned off the faucets, they'd be hurting very bad. But the illusion of being "flexible" is comforting, I suppose.


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But if you are wide, then the actions of one vendor don't hurt you as much. Being wide and using multiple distributors gives you flexibility.


Thank you. That's exactly what I meant. Many eggs, many baskets.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

What do Facebook, Google, and Amazon all have in common? Their data is more valuable than everything else. The more data available outside of their domain, the less valuable it becomes.

The surprise isn't that Amazon is attempting to close down the leak of data to NovelRank, it's that it took this long for them to do it. I'm convinced that the shift from KU 1.0 to 2.0 wasn't so much about listening to authors or delivering longer books to customers (although I'm sure they both played a role), but as a way to keep data in house. Losing the data about borrows creates a void, and page reads just can't fill that hole in any reasonable way. Assumptions can be made, but knowing you have X number of page reads isn't nearly as valuable as knowing the absolute number of borrows. Amazon still has that data, but they aren't sharing it.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2018)

Rick Partlow said:


> I guess there are some people like that, but the majority of indie authors I speak to who are wide still get the bulk of their income from Amazon. if the Zon turned off the faucets, they'd be hurting very bad. But the illusion of being "flexible" is comforting, I suppose.


In the initial stages of going wide I would say you're right because we all get our 'start' from Amazon and it represents our commitment to writing. However, as time goes on Amazon DOES lose importance in the scheme of things. Despite what you think, being 'flexible' isn't an 'illusion' and comforting it certainly ain't, but when Amazon throws a wobbly we hurt less than those 100% in Amazon's clutches. If Amazon fell of a cliff tomorrow I'd still be earning an income and that's 'peace of mind'.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

I've never used NovelRank. I never heard of it until now.

I have used SalesRankExpress, especially as it seems to be the only way to tell if your eBook is consigned to the adult 'dungeon'.

The Yasiv site I've used once or twice (the one that diagrams out also-boughts). Yasiv sort of shows instantly how your books relate to sales of books by other authors.

I suppose all of these are on the chopping block?


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

Shelley K said:


> I think they pole-vaulted over 'trying' right to 'shut down.' Unless he can get Amazon to change its position, it's done.


My mistake, I thought it could still access some storefronts.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2018)

Rick Partlow said:


> I guess there are some people like that, but the majority of indie authors I speak to who are wide still get the bulk of their income from Amazon. if the Zon turned off the faucets, they'd be hurting very bad. But the illusion of being "flexible" is comforting, I suppose.


There is a fundamental difference between making your books available through D2D/Smashwords but still focusing 100% of your marketing on Amazon (which is what too many authors do) and having a marketing plan independent of retailers where you are promoting YOUR BRAND not a specific retailer.

BRANDS don't care where you buy so long as you do. Colgate or Kellogg's or Pepsi don't care if you buy from WalMart, Amazon, Shoprite, or the local corner store. Sure, they will do special promos with individual stores. But they don't do all their promo at a single store all the time. The majority of their advertising is THEIR brand. Then they make sure they are everyone a potential customer might want to buy.

Too many authors list their books wide, but fixate on Amazon-specific marketing and programs that are meant to "juice" the Amazon algorithms.

I've said it a million times that I am not a full-time writer. But a lot of that is because I actually like my day job (with my health insurance, 401K, profit sharing, 5 weeks paid vacation, and all the other stuff). That said, I make a profit, and what Amazon does has minimal impact on me because they are not my primary retailer. My sales are rather spread out across dozens of outlets.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

From my experience it was never accurate anyway. No great loss.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

John Twipnook said:


> I don't know if or when Data Guy may suffer the same fate. I hope not. I like his reports.


Data Guy has one thing going for him as far as I can see. He presents a far more accurate view of ebook sales and KU, than what the trad publishers put together. Trad publishers would have everyone believe ebooks is a dying market, when in fact, its trad publishers which are dying and Indies are booming. 80% of that boom is Amazon. In letting DG get the message out, Amazon doesn't have to say anything. But with someone out there convincing people there is a boom and buying ebooks is the thing to do these days, Amazon benefits without doing anything.

Even among authors, seeing the charts of the true situation, was uplifting. Knowing the market for what we write is exploding, not contracting as trads will have it, makes all the difference to how you view the future as an author.


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

Kobo has sales ranks of a sort, but I've never been able to figure them out. A new release with no sales might have a better rank than something of mine which is selling one or two copies a day.


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Novelrank is gone. At the top of the site is a red button: "message." The message:



> On August 21st, Amazon decided that after 9 years, without warning, NovelRank violated their Terms of Use. On August 31st they followed up all appeals by closing the final domain: Amazon.com, effectively killing NovelRank.
> 
> Please export any data you want to keep as soon as possible.
> 
> ...


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> It was pretty accurate for me.
> 
> But, yeah, Amazon seem to be closing the dungeon gates now and don't want anyone to be able to do anything on Amazon without paying for it.


I'm guessing it's more about the use of Amazon affiliates. They seem to send out updates to the T&C every month or two.


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## Lisa5 (Oct 23, 2012)

Well I'm an idiot. I bought an ad on Novel Rank one of the pricey ones and then found out they shut down in August so I guess that's money down the drain. I'd always been intending to buy one and went to the page to buy one without seeing the page about them shutting down first. I just threw that money away didn't I"


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Lisa5 said:


> Well I'm an idiot. I bought an ad on Novel Rank one of the pricey ones and then found out they shut down in August so I guess that's money down the drain. I'd always been intending to buy one and went to the page to buy one without seeing the page about them shutting down first. I just threw that money away didn't I"


Not necessarily. Ask them politely for a refund, if you don't receive it, threaten them with the small claims court or its equivalent. They should, if they are ethical, refund it without you asking.


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