# Where are the science fiction readers?



## Guest (Jun 3, 2015)

Where have you found that science fiction readers typically go to find new books and authors to read? Specifically, space opera, military SF, and science fantasy?

In previous threads, other sci-fi authors like Patty have suggested that most sci-fi readers don't really "trust" advertisements or promotions--that is, ads aren't nearly as effective at getting them to try out new authors as they are in other genres like romance or thrillers. Have you found that to be the case?

For a sci-fi author looking to build his/her readership, what are some of the best places (online and IRL) to find new readers who will be interested in your work?


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

Science Fiction is a very tough market right now. It has been shrinking for years, and a lot of that has to do with many of the stories coming out of the 'traditional' publishers don't appeal to the majority of 'traditional' readers. I think that's why a lot of writers have switched over to many of the different 'fantasy' genres. 

I would try to tie your advertising in with Science Fiction conventions, see about advertising on their websites, in their conbooks. I think that may be the best bet currently.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

As a reader I try a lot of the free stories off of Amazon, Baen free library and short stories all over the place. I think its a reflection of my scatterbrain approach to everything. As a newb trying to get people to read my stuff.... I'm lost in the woods


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

Geronl has a good point, and one that I hadn't really considered. Maybe write a couple of sci-fi short stories and try to put them in those places for free, as an advertisement effort.


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## joyceharmon (May 21, 2012)

Don't know where the 'typical' sci-fi reader finds books, but I tend to go with what my sister says is good. Where does she find them? I dunno. I think she samples a lot.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Science fiction is actually growing right now... Space opera and Mil SF are super hot genres if you write them correctly (ie fulfill reader expectation and hit the tropes etc).  I know quite a few people making a killing right now in those genres as indies...

As for where the readers are... well... where they always are, I guess. Waiting for someone to suggest they read X. Best way to do that? Write X and get it moving in the algos so you populate the alsobots of other books like X


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

When people say sci-fi is in trouble, they usually mean that advances from the big publishers have fallen. Someone who might have gotten $20K advance on a book 15 years ago are now likely to be offered 5K.

The internet has really pounded the traditional publishers, especially in sci-fi I guess. The internet has been great for fans and us little author guys though.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

We're a strange lot. With me, it's a matter of perusing covers, then going to the blurb, then to the sample. It means I spend a long time looking for my next book. The cover has to convey the mood I'm in. The blurb has to hook me. And most importantly, the sample has to show a style of writing I would enjoy.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Also, you might think that selling to the SF magazines helps your indie books sell, but it doesn't. In my experience, people who read those short stories don't cross over at all. So it's worth doing if you want to sell to the magazines, but not worth doing if you think it will magically be advertising for your longer work.


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## callan (Feb 29, 2012)

Annie B said:


> Also, you might think that selling to the SF magazines helps your indie books sell, but it doesn't. In my experience, people who read those short stories don't cross over at all. So it's worth doing if you want to sell to the magazines, but not worth doing if you think it will magically be advertising for your longer work.


Hah, I remember back in The Old Days (tm) of SF we were told we had to sell a few short stories before an agent, much less an editor, would look at our novels. Which is why I spent so much time on a story form I never enjoyed. Someday I'll bundle them all up in an anthology called "Didn't Suit Our Needs".

Anyway, I find new sf authors by recommendations, and amazon also-bots.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Listen to the grumpy cat. She is wise. Space Opera/military SF is booming for selfpublishers. We absolutely OWN that category.

Tropes. It's about tropes and fulfilling reader expectations. Buy some of the bestsellers in SF/mil SF/Space Opera. How do they differ from your books?

Some general pointers, not directed at your books in particular:

If you're going to write space opera/military SF, your cover must have space ships. You can have a person, but he/she needs to be in uniform and holding a gun. The more guns, the better. An explosion in the background is good, too.

Reader expectations: there will be fights, and space ships, and aliens, and guns. And did I mention space ships? It can have character stuff (see Fluency, for example), but at no time must the blurb/cover give the impression that it will a main focus. If there is charactery stuff in the book, it must come secondary to the aliens, wars, cool tech, guns and SPACE SHIPS.

Don't write anything like that?

OK, then classify it as YA, put a pretty girl on the cover and a dreamy star field. Or make her tough, but make the person central. Or classify it as SFR.

The money, really, is in Space opera/military SF.

Where are these readers? Everywhere. If my experience at cons is anything to go by, they don't tend to use websites for recommendations, but they'll use recommendations from peers. Giving away samples works well (but you MUST hit the tropes and hit them hard). You should write series. You should go wide (because many geek types dislike Amazon).

These people will read SF because of aliens, fights and SPACE SHIPS. Give it to them.

Seriously, space ships. And aliens, and cool tech.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

callan said:


> Hah, I remember back in The Old Days (tm) of SF we were told we had to sell a few short stories before an agent, much less an editor, would look at our novels. Which is why I spent so much time on a story form I never enjoyed. Someday I'll bundle them all up in an anthology called "Didn't Suit Our Needs".


The cover could be a rejection letter... heh


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## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

As a reader I am so tired of military scifi and "alien discovery".  I have some of the top sellers on my Kindle. They're good, but not for book upon book upon book. Am also getting a bit tired of my daily BookBubhaving an alien romance as their scifi entry. Please, if you plan to write a classic space opera or something remotely non-military, please let me know.

Edit: bookbub, not bookbaby!!!


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Bishoppess said:


> As a reader I am so tired of military scifi and "alien discovery". I have some of the top sellers on my Kindle. They're good, but not for book upon book upon book. Am also getting a bit tired of my daily BookBaby having an alien romance as their scifi entry. Please, if you plan to write a classic space opera or something remotely non-military, please let me know.


My _New Arrivals_ is about an invasion but the main characters are children of the colony, and some characters are the child cadets of the invaders. I guess that would count as "military" sci-fi in a way. It's more of an adventure story I think.


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

vanstry said:


> Science Fiction is a very tough market right now. It has been shrinking for years, and a lot of that has to do with many of the stories coming out of the 'traditional' publishers don't appeal to the majority of 'traditional' readers. I think that's why a lot of writers have switched over to many of the different 'fantasy' genres.
> 
> I would try to tie your advertising in with Science Fiction conventions, see about advertising on their websites, in their conbooks. I think that may be the best bet currently.


I think what you mean here is hard sci-fi.

From what I gathered recently, its not that it has lost its appeal, but the traditionally published authors, especially "the Greats" have sacrificed a lot of the characterisation, character development, even story, in favor of pushing scientific ideas, concepts, and ideals. Some of them tried harder in previous years, which is how they earned their "Greats" title, but seem to have fallen off the effort making in developing an enticing story without making the focus so hard on science.

So its not that hard sci-fi has lost its appeal, we have a few indies who have become famous for their works in that subgenre, but that these people haven't put out anything thrilling to work with when it comes t the audience. And worse, there's been a push to stigmatize anything that isn't hard sci-fi, not just from this conglomerate of authors, but their publishers, their marketers, and even their fanbase (as much as its shrinking, its still big). They're the reason space opera was considered a ridiculous work of fiction for a long long time.

At least, this has been my own observation.

I do agree with what others said, the genre itself is not dead, and if anything, is on the rise. If you play the strings correctly, you join the wave, if not, you'll remain unnoticed.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Science fiction readers find new authors in the pages of the magazines and fanzines they subscribe to. Getting those magazines to publish one of your stories is ... challenging. Fanzines are a little easier to crack.

Magazines
https://www.google.com/search?q=science+fiction+magazine&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Fanzines
http://fanac.org/fanzines/


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Science fiction readers find new authors in the pages of the magazines and fanzines they subscribe to. Getting those magazines to publish one of your stories is ... challenging. Fanzines are a little easier to crack.
> 
> Magazines
> https://www.google.com/search?q=science+fiction+magazine&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
> ...


Nup. I've been published by some of the big ones. Doesn't do anything for sales. A lot of people who read those magazines are very hostile to selfpublishing. That may change but so far, it hasn't yet. I've had good results targeting the fan crowd. Not the genre writer cons, but the fan cons. These people are also on Facebook and Twitter, but you have to work on scouting them out.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Boyd said:


> Science Fiction --- But but... Dystopian and Post Apoc is in the same cat. Nobody mentioned these.


Joe asked about Space opera/ military SF.

True, he also asked about science fantasy, but I think that's a bad, bad classification that basically says, "Well, I wrote this thing but I don't know what it is." Which isn't really the best way to go about writing a marketable book.


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## callan (Feb 29, 2012)

Bishoppess said:


> As a reader I am so tired of military scifi and "alien discovery". I have some of the top sellers on my Kindle. They're good, but not for book upon book upon book. Am also getting a bit tired of my daily BookBubhaving an alien romance as their scifi entry. Please, if you plan to write a classic space opera or something remotely non-military, please let me know.
> 
> Edit: bookbub, not bookbaby!!!


Hmm, how about a YA space opera with a chaste romance?


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2015)

Patty Jansen said:


> Joe asked about Space opera/ military SF.
> 
> True, he also asked about science fantasy, but I think that's a bad, bad classification that basically says, "Well, I wrote this thing but I don't know what it is." Which isn't really the best way to go about writing a marketable book.


No, science fantasy is its own legitimate thing. The most recent major example of it was Jupiter Ascending. It overlaps a bit with space opera, but with a lot more of the fantasy tropes. Planetary romance and sword and planet are sub-sub genres of science fantasy, kinda sorta.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2015)

callan said:


> Hmm, how about a YA space opera with a chaste romance?


That was my first self-published novel!


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## B.J. Keeton (Jul 8, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> No, science fantasy is its own legitimate thing. The most recent major example of it was Jupiter Ascending. It overlaps a bit with space opera, but with a lot more of the fantasy tropes. Planetary romance and sword and planet are sub-sub genres of science fantasy, kinda sorta.


Science fantasy is really hard to market, believe me. That's my main trilogy, and I've actually found myself laying off the gas on the fantasy aspect of it as I promote it as a SF Adventure instead, which it is, too (the beauty of the genre, I guess).

I was really hoping Jupiter Ascending would have been a bigger hit, though--my series shares a lot of aesthetics in common with it, and when I saw the trailer, I was hoping to capitalize on some fans checking stuff out because of it. Guess that didn't happen, haha.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

I'm an avid reader of space opera, sci-fi in general, and fantasy. 

I tend to look at what is emailed to me as suggestions by Kindle. If something catches my eye, I look at the blurb. If its half interesting, I download a sample. If I don't toss the sample before getting to the end of it, more often than not I buy the book. While at the browsing stage, I look at what else is being shown in the same genre. Rince and repeat, until I lose interest.

I dont search out books unless I'm looking for something specific.

What I want to know, is how you get your books listed on the slider underneath each book, showing others in the genre. Because that is where I find most of the books I buy.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> No, science fantasy is its own legitimate thing. The most recent major example of it was Jupiter Ascending. It overlaps a bit with space opera, but with a lot more of the fantasy tropes. Planetary romance and sword and planet are sub-sub genres of science fantasy, kinda sorta.


I know, but just look at what sells. I also find that *most* authors who call their stuff Science Fantasy are kinda wishy washy about the genre they've written. Star Wars *should* be science fantasy (I mean, magic, SWORDS?), but that just won't work. Science fantasy doesn't draw people. Classify it as Science Fiction.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2015)

Well, one of my lifetime career goals is to invent and/or popularize a sub-genre... but yeah, I get what you're saying about the readership being small.


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## callan (Feb 29, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> That was my first self-published novel!


And we have a new genre!


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Well, one of my lifetime career goals is to invent and/or popularize a sub-genre... but yeah, I get what you're saying about the readership being small.


I think you do that simply by being unique in some way.

I'm mixing space opera with spiritual. I dont know if its been done before, but if it hasnt, I'd call that a new sub-genre.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> I think you do that simply by being unique in some way.


Unique and popular, and also by scratching a cultural itch that isn't being scratched by anyone else.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Yeah. In my opinion, you can argue that Star Wars and Jupiter Ascending are science fantasy, but nobody outside of a tiny sliver of nerdom will even know what that means. They are science fiction to the rest of the world, and space opera at their core in most ways, so if you are writing things like that, just call them space opera unless you want your audience to be five guys alone at the party arguing


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## Seshenet (May 20, 2015)

I'm working on my first novel and I have no idea what to call it, let alone how to define it to readers. For now I'm calling it a character-driven sci-fi mystery with some archaeology thrown in. Not hard sci-fi. All the action is on a planet settled by humans two thousand years ago and what life might be like without a major institution we take for granted now, but that no longer exists in the era of the novel.

I'm (sort of) dreading the time when I have to figure out how to market it.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> Star Wars *should* be science fantasy (I mean, magic, SWORDS?), but that just won't work.


GAH! They're lightsabers, not swords. Compact energy weapons that expand into pure awesome sauce when danger threatens.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Have you seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShAeafYCqxk


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## Jason Eric Pryor (Jan 30, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Listen to the grumpy cat. She is wise. Space Opera/military SF is booming for selfpublishers. We absolutely OWN that category.
> 
> Tropes. It's about tropes and fulfilling reader expectations. Buy some of the bestsellers in SF/mil SF/Space Opera. How do they differ from your books?
> 
> ...


Well. Ive got the spaceships, cool tech, and fights covered. Aliens, not so much. Heck, the name, Crash Wagon is the name of a spaceship. One of my reviews mentions that they liked that I DIDN'T go the route of standard military story. Different strokes and all.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Jason Eric Pryor said:


> Well. Ive got the spaceships, cool tech, and fights covered. Aliens, not so much. Heck, the name, Crash Wagon is the name of a spaceship. One of my reviews mentions that they liked that I DIDN'T go the route of standard military story. Different strokes and all.


Your covers are awesome (Tom Edwards, right?) and you probably need more, longer books and a bit more patience


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I'll put sci-fi without fleets and space battles on my list!

An idea is already forming in my head.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I love this forum but I do NOT want to mention some ideas I have. Not that I don't trust people, though.


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## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

Gotta say, this question pretty much applies to most non-romance genres. Romance readers seem to have embraced the idea of mailing lists and email/twitter promotions more than others. For other genres like SF, Horror and the like it gets frustrating to know there _is_ a decent fanbase and readership out there, but reaching actual readers can be a challenge.
I'm probably going to finish my WIP and spend some serious time analysing this problem, before starting another book.


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## markbrandonpowell (May 30, 2014)

This is something that I have wanted to know for a while. I got a science fantasy book myself with dragons and giant bugs, altered reality and magic... I am still trying to figure out what the heck it is.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Speaking for myself, I find science fiction and fantasy via recommendations at certain trusted blogs and from Twitter pals. As for indie SFF, I've found quite a few books from the sigs here as well as from submissions to the Spec Fic Showcase. I rarely bother checking the Amazon SF bestseller lists, because they're full of military SF, a subgenre I don't much care for.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

markbrandonpowell said:


> This is something that I have wanted to know for a while. I got a science fantasy book myself with dragons and giant bugs, altered reality and magic... I am still trying to figure out what the heck it is.


I have one of those too, I need to double the size to make it a good novella though


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

I've been reading SF since I discovered it in the 3rd grade, which was *cough cough* years ago. I still tend to chance upon it, even in this age of lots of info. An intriguing cover, a mention by a friend or in an article. Awards and nominations, not so much, though every once in awhile something will catch my attention. I do look at what's on the Kindle lists or getting attention elsewhere, and have clicked on Bookbub, but there's no guarantee.  Subscribed to the mags for years, but there's never been much conversion between short story and book for me....at least, not since I read "Dragons of Pern" as a novella (brilliant, the book, which I recently read for the first time, sucked).  But I did trail into the first few Pern books because of reading the novella.  Other than that....  Sometimes, it's just "I'm in the mood for space opera" and I'll go looking....  Although I've never seen anyone else mention it, I also discover them in my local library...on the shelf by chance, on display, on the new book shelf....  Which doesn't do an indie any good at all.

Also, I want a full book. I'm not interested in the serials (I don't like them in any genre), and have tried a couple of authors with shorter books (really, novellas) and not been at all tempted to try more by that author because, like I said, short doesn't convert for me.

Right now I'm reading a Glen Cook space opera because I went looking for a Black Company book, which wasn't available. (again, sadly, print. no help)


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## JVRudnick (Sep 12, 2014)

Great story - and close to being on point too...

Back in the 1950's before socialized medicine up here in Canada, you paid your Dr. for healthcare...and I so very well remember my father, a Dr. coming home one Friday with 11 paper bags...he called me up from the rec room and simply said "here, Jim...for you..." and when I opened them up there were hundreds of SF books...Ace doubles too! Somebody Dad said, had paid a small bill with him by offering up their SF collection...and Dad accepted same...and I got the payment!

Point is - that you can find SF almost anywhere. I found three great book reviews over at a local bookstore in the remainder bin when I opened up a Sf novel and saw that the author had listed some of his favs! Found same kind of serendipity too at my library where someone posted their own Top 10 summer reads and 3 were SF books too! Found more here on kBoards via my normal inspection of everyones SIG areas....

Guess what I'm saying is - the pointers are everywhere....least for me!


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## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

Bishoppess said:


> As a reader I am so tired of military scifi and "alien discovery". I have some of the top sellers on my Kindle. They're good, but not for book upon book upon book. Am also getting a bit tired of my daily BookBubhaving an alien romance as their scifi entry. Please, if you plan to write a classic space opera or something remotely non-military, please let me know.
> 
> Edit: bookbub, not bookbaby!!!


Well, the Orlo Suggs group is Science Fiction/Mystery/Adventure/Suspense with the only aliens being less far along in the cranium than we are. No chemical rockets spewing flames in a vacuum, no tights-and-epaulets uniforms, and no horror of sexual expression.

I always wanted to ask Kirk or Picard, if you're an advanced civilization why are you all still in the Army?


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## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

Had a thought about this. I think alot of the scifi people are WATCHING it these days. From what I've seen, people will throw themselves es behind a shows Fandom alot more loudly than alot of books. But maybe that's because I myself watch alot of those shows and (as I've mentioned) have a hard time finding scifi to read.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Geek shows, really. You'll find that a good number of Star Wars fans, WoW players, etc. etc., do read, even if they don't beat on about it, don't frequent the regular venues or ad sites and don't read or care about award winners. But you got to give them what they like (aliens and space ships).


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## Jason Eric Pryor (Jan 30, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Your covers are awesome (Tom Edwards, right?) and you probably need more, longer books and a bit more patience


Thank you. Yes, Tom Edwards is a genius as far as I'm concerned. I've already got the Book Four cover from him. It looks fantastic! Can't wait to show it off. Crash Wagon will be a 5-book series, so I just have to get one more from him.

I plan on writing an actual full-length novel once I finish Crash Wagon. I have several ideas swimming around in my head. And yes, patience is key I guess.


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

I would like to know where the sci-fi readers are myself.  But then, my sci-fi books (Nightfall, Tycho, Avenger, Freedom, and Elysium) are offbeat and don't easily fit within categories.  I guess you could call them "hard" apocalyptic space-travel YA with a spiritual aspect.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

_ I guess you could call them "hard" apocalyptic space-travel YA with a spiritual aspect._

you should use that in your descriptions


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## Holly Heisey (Apr 7, 2015)

I write what would be called science fantasy, too, and that's interesting that a lot of you are saying not to classify it that way. And, that makes a lot of sense. 

I'll admit to being drawn to books 90% of the time by their covers, and I'll go on Amazon click trails and buy that way. The covers that stand out to me in the Space Opera and Military SF genres often have a different take on the typical cool spaceship/space battle thing going on. Covers like Fluency, or Ancillary Justice. 

But does that have to do with the tropes? Is it an absolute requirement that you have certain things in your book, or that you just make your cover copy hit the key components of spaceships, aliens, and the like?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Well, if your book doesn't have space ships, there obviously shouldn't be any on the cover. But it's what sells. The cover/categories I mentioned are the cover themes of the bestseller lists. Think of it from a marketing perspective. If you want to sell, you write, within your subgenre, what sells best. But you got to identify a subgenre before starting to write.

This is not pissing on anyone. I'm very much a been there done that type of person. I wrote some books because I wanted to, but marketing them was very much pushing sludge uphill until I made some cover changes and category changes that are more in line with expectations.

The beauty of selfpublishing is that you can write whatever weird genre crossover thing you want, but if it's hard to sell, that's likely one of the main reasons. So then you can decide do I want to keep writing what I please and stop caring about sales, or do I try something new that hits the tropes a bit harder (and that you still enjoy writing of course)? That's up to you, but pay little attention to those sorts of marketing decisions and you shouldn't expect wonders, nor be surprised if sales are lacking.

You only need to visit the space opera bestseller lists (any retailer, any given time of the year) to see that it's space ships, space ships, space ships overwhelmingly by selfpublished authors. Where these readers are? Well, they're obviously shopping online. Your trick? Put a space ship on the cover (if your book has space ships) and get your books in as many alsobot sliders as possible. How to do this: make a book free or 99c *and advertise the hell out of it*, constantly.

(now there are going to be a whole bunch of 3D model developers who are going to wonder where the sudden demand for space ships came from)


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

I agree that it is very hard to get sci-fi readers to notice our books, even if we do have a great cover. I've tried running ads on Goodreads, FB, Amazon, and Google, all with no real success. I'd like to try Bookbub, but they won't let me right now because The Dragon Chronicles anthology has one coming out shortly, and my name is associated with that. 

Mine isn't military or hard sci-fi. It's more a thriller than anything, just with obvious sci-fi elements. I haven't had a single review on Amazon in about two months, and I sell perhaps one copy a day. I'm finding it worse with epic fantasy, though. I've had a total of three reviews on that and only sell about two copies per week.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2015)

Patty Jansen said:


> (now there are going to be a whole bunch of 3D model developers who are going to wonder where the sudden demand for space ships came from)


Speaking of which, does anyone know of a good 3D model artist who can do spaceships? Or where I can learn how to do it myself? Hmm, if I learned how to do 3D modeling and started up a side business doing spaceship cover art...


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Speaking of which, does anyone know of a good 3D model artist who can do spaceships? Or where I can learn how to do it myself? Hmm, if I learned how to do 3D modeling and started up a side business doing spaceship cover art...


Renderosity. You can commission people there.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Speaking of which, does anyone know of a good 3D model artist who can do spaceships? Or where I can learn how to do it myself? Hmm, if I learned how to do 3D modeling and started up a side business doing spaceship cover art...


Blender 3D, except on my Windows 8.1 it refuses to throw up the background. There are sites that make downloaded ships easy, but finding a good one is a little tougher. (adding planets and the lighting and stuff are easy)


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

BobPage said:


> Anyway, all this space opera & military sci-fi talk about writing to a specific audience seems like a really passion-less way to go about writing.


It's amazing how little passion or motives matter to the final result. There are an infinite number of examples of passionate writers who can't write for toffee. And then there's a long list of books which were written with less-than-pure motives that turned out to be excellent. An example:

Anthony Burgess sought to make his name in historical fiction - to be the writer who documented Malaysian history in novel form. He was open about wanting to be the Kipling/Conrad for Malaysia. He was living over there for an extended period. He learned Malay. He wrote several - Time for a Tiger, Enemy in the Blanket, Beds in the East - and felt he was beginning to mark his territory. They were big, important, serious books that he was putting his all into.

A Clockwork Orange was very different. Burgess was broke. He was very open about his "impure" motives. It only took him 3 weeks from start to finish and he called it "a jeu d'esprit knocked off for money." He always hated that book and never revised his opinion of it, even after its success and the subsequent success of the movie (which he also hated). As he said towards the end of his life: "The book I am best known for, or only known for, is a novel I am prepared to repudiate."

As we all know, readers (and critics) don't share that opinion. History will likely remember A Clockwork Orange and forget the rest.

So that's how much passion and motives really matter.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> Anyway, all this space opera & military sci-fi talk about writing to a specific audience seems like a really passion-less way to go about writing.


Seriously? Why? Are you not allowed to be passionate about reading and writing space opera and military SF? If that's what you like reading?

Also, Joe was asking where to find readers because he wants to sell more. Satisfying his inner gecko wasn't part of the brief.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

It's not passionless if you are passionate about writing space opera or mil sf or just SF in general. You can love what you write without necessarily writing what you love. There isn't necessarily an either/or component.  Paying attention to the market for what you do want to write, and paying attention to what reader expectations are isn't passionless, it's smart. You can be both passionate and business-savvy.  I think the most successful writers usually are.


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## BobPage (Mar 16, 2012)

dgaughran wrote: 

"A Clockwork Orange was very different. Burgess was broke. He was very open about his "impure" motives. It only took him 3 weeks from start to finish and he called it "a jeu d'esprit knocked off for money." He always hated that book and never revised his opinion of it, even after its success and the subsequent success of the movie (which he also hated). As he said towards the end of his life: "The book I am best known for, or only known for, is a novel I am prepared to repudiate."

See even to a pro it's hell.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Best job I ever had. It's fun, I get to love what I do, there are always new challenges and things to learn, and I make a ton of money. Pretty much a win all around.


----------



## BobPage (Mar 16, 2012)

dgaughran wrote:

"As we all know, readers (and critics) don't share that opinion. History will likely remember A Clockwork Orange and forget the rest.

So that's how much passion and motives really matter."

Good point in combo with the latter from the same post. I guess I'm just frustrated & drunk...we all should be able to write what wish without explanation or critique for the reasons why.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

BobPage said:


> dgaughran wrote:
> 
> "As we all know, readers (and critics) don't share that opinion. History will likely remember A Clockwork Orange and forget the rest.
> 
> ...


You can write whatever you want without explanation. 

However, if you come to a message board asking how to sell a particular genre, you are taking things beyond the realm of what you want and have to start thinking about what readers want. Writing is an art and a craft. Publishing is a business. If you want to succeed in publishing, you have to pay attention to the business side of things. If you don't care... then you can do whatever you want. Nobody will force you to write something or not


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## BobPage (Mar 16, 2012)

Annie B said:


> Best job I ever had. It's fun, I get to love what I do, there are always new challenges and things to learn, and I make a ton of money. Pretty much a win all around.


 It's all good sista...I'm not trying to be a jerk, there's room for all in this thang  Hopefully, even me.


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## Paul K (Jan 11, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> If you're going to write space opera/military SF, your cover must have space ships. You can have a person, but he/she needs to be in uniform and holding a gun. The more guns, the better. An explosion in the background is good, too.


Damn it, Patty, you literally just described the description I sent to my cover guy last week. It pretty much said: Guy, maybe 30, wearing armor (think Mass Effect) running from explosion with two pistols in hand. Add cool spaceship up top. (Not kidding)


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## scifi365 (Sep 12, 2014)

As well as the Space Opera/Military S.F stuff (which does, of course, sell well), there is still a decent sized market for Hard Science Fiction and classic style SF novels. If you're looking to tap into the Science Fiction market, then I would avoid the Post-Apocalyptic stuff altogether.  Whenever we feature that stuff in Scifi365.net (even if it's really good like Mark R Healy's books), we don't generate many sales.

However, we do well with things that connect with the older S.F reader who has bought a Kindle or Kobo and loves the classics like Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke. There's a strong crossover between eBook readers of that age and the kind of hard science fiction those guys and gals love. 

You'll be pleased to know there is still room for the 'thinking person's Science Fiction'. It's not all spaceships and kicking alien ass out there in SF reader land.


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

scifi365 said:


> You'll be pleased to know there is still room for the 'thinking person's Science Fiction'. It's not all spaceships and kicking alien ass out there in SF reader land.


The ghost of Frank Herbert still haunts the SF realm.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

It seems you have only two books...perhaps write at least five and make the first one permafree?  That seems to work sometimes. Your covers are very attractive.


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## scifi365 (Sep 12, 2014)

Additionally to what Melody has just said, you could really do with having a full length book out there. Most of the promotional sites (including - shameless plug - our own) only really accept full length works.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2015)

scifi365 said:


> Additionally to what Melody has just said, you could really do with having a full length book out there. Most of the promotional sites (including - shameless plug - our own) only really accept full length works.





Melody Simmons said:


> It seems you have only two books...perhaps write at least five and make the first one permafree? That seems to work sometimes. Your covers are very attractive.


I have written and published 9 novellas, 4 short novels (40k - 75k), and 4 long novels (>75k). The books in my sig are just my permafree titles, and not even all of those.


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## Tim C. Taylor (May 17, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Where have you found that science fiction readers typically go to find new books and authors to read? Specifically, space opera, military SF, and science fantasy?


For space opera & military sf, the best way I have found is to use Amazon for discoverability. Immerse yourself in those two sub-genre bestseller charts and put out a book with a cover and title that will appeal to those readers (it is they who determine which books chart). I started a successful series last Christmas through putting a book in Amazon's pre-order system. People must have picked it up because they were searching those Amazon sub-genres ordered on Release date, looking for something new to read. That's the only explanation I can come up with because I didn't even tell anyone I'd released the book, did no marketing, and it reached 3,000 sales before its first review.

Also, as others have said in this thread, don't believe the narrative that science fiction sales are down. It might be for traditional publishers, but self-publishers and 47 North (Amazon's own imprint) dominate space opera and military SF on Amazon (Baen do well too, but are something of an outsider publisher). In my experience, the combined sales of the top-20 book military SF bestseller chart on Amazon represents around 10,000 sales per day.

Also, I disagree with an earlier poster who said go wide. In those two sub-genres, Kindle Unlimited is very popular with readers. Probably because series are very popular. Nearly half my 'sales' are actually borrows, and they all count toward your sales ranking.

Good luck.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

My little first book is free this weekend Amazon lists it as "Sci-Fi Space Marine" even though its really about one rogue Captain with a small army invading a small, low-tech colony world.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Edward M. Grant said:


> I'd have thought they'd be relatively easy to put together once you've built the models, so I'm surprised more people aren't doing them.


tell me about it. If Blender 3d backgrounds worked on my Windows 8.1 I would be playing around with it like crazy.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Edward M. Grant said:


> I'd have thought they'd be relatively easy to put together once you've built the models, so I'm surprised more people aren't doing them.


BTW- I like the new cover on your Forge title


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## BBGriffith (Mar 13, 2012)

Just my two cents, but I also think that publishers are trying to corral what would have been a scifi book ten years ago into the YA market. You could call it the Hunger Games effect. An example, I just finished reading Red Rising by Pierce Brown. To me, that is a science fiction novel. It's being marketed as young adult, though, because I think publishers want that market badly.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

As a newb, I know I have very little reach but you would think I could give it away better than this. lol.

By the way, one of the categories Amazon put it in was sci-fi>military>Marines (and its 25 in free in that category... lol.. how many free ebooks in that category?)


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## Tim C. Taylor (May 17, 2011)

geronl said:


> As a newb, I know I have very little reach but you would think I could give it away better than this. lol.
> 
> By the way, one of the categories Amazon put it in was sci-fi>military>Marines (and its 25 in free in that category... lol.. how many free ebooks in that category?)


It's 24 now  It looks good in thumbnail. How long has it been free?


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Tim C. Taylor said:


> It's 24 now  It looks good in thumbnail. How long has it been free?


Just today. (tomorrow and Sunday)

I have no idea when "today" started for Amazon though. This sci-fi is a lot lighter than most of the ones thrown into "space marines".


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## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

BBGriffith said:


> Just my two cents, but I also think that publishers are trying to corral what would have been a scifi book ten years ago into the YA market. You could call it the Hunger Games effect. An example, I just finished reading Red Rising by Pierce Brown. To me, that is a science fiction novel. It's being marketed as young adult, though, because I think publishers want that market badly.


Agreed. Holy crud but they lump alot of stuff into YA. My stuff would never work there. Too much death, sex, and general bad attitudes.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Tim C. Taylor said:


> It's 24 now  It looks good in thumbnail. How long has it been free?


also #24 in free scifi/colonization

Again, I didn't know there were 24 free in that category


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Bishoppess said:


> Agreed. Holy crud but they lump alot of stuff into YA. My stuff would never work there. Too much death, sex, and general bad attitudes.


I'm going to add young adult to the keywords after this free period is over


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

reached 21 in free-scifi-military-marines

but apparently vanished from free-scifi-colonization

  

I find this hilarious for some reason.


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

scifi365 said:


> Additionally to what Melody has just said, you could really do with having a full length book out there. Most of the promotional sites (including - shameless plug - our own) only really accept full length works.


No series? No volumized editions of the sort? Shame.



Joe Vasicek said:


> Speaking of which, does anyone know of a good 3D model artist who can do spaceships? Or where I can learn how to do it myself? Hmm, if I learned how to do 3D modeling and started up a side business doing spaceship cover art...


http://andreewallin.deviantart.com/gallery/

http://adamkop.deviantart.com/gallery/

http://steve-burg.deviantart.com/gallery/

http://thelovas.deviantart.com/gallery/

http://elreviae.deviantart.com/gallery/23926112/Sci-Fi-and-space-art

http://markusvogt.deviantart.com/gallery/26046149/Spacecrafts


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

those are some great artists!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

geronl said:


> As a newb, I know I have very little reach but you would think I could give it away better than this. lol.
> 
> By the way, one of the categories Amazon put it in was sci-fi>military>Marines (and its 25 in free in that category... lol.. how many free ebooks in that category?)


You are #18 in two subcats.
There are 62 in one subcat and 86 in the other.


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

geronl said:


> those are some great artists!


Yes, they are. And they should be with such rep, couple of them have worked on blockbuster movies and video games.


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## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

DeviantArt has some of the most awesome people on it. I'm afraid to click those links because I know I'll end up adding them to the 900+ plus people I'm following. Professional animators, concept artists, Matt painters (might be good if someone wants scenery/environments as a cover), people who do alot of robots and stuff. So much awesome.


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

Bishoppess - cannot agree more.

There is another upside too. If you have a bigger budget to spend than Fiverr, there are some guys who offer high quality work, for very affordable price. Be that 2D, 3D, photography, sculpture and what not. Most are either people who have good-paying dayjobs, or are younger crowds still in school/college, so the low prices could be a result of that. There are some who just want to be affordable and not get too pumpy about their price. That works well for them too. All of these have commissions non-stop as a result.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

#14 in free space marine scifi or whatever


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## B.J. Keeton (Jul 8, 2010)

Jason Eric Pryor said:


> Thank you. Yes, Tom Edwards is a genius as far as I'm concerned. I've already got the Book Four cover from him. It looks fantastic! Can't wait to show it off. Crash Wagon will be a 5-book series, so I just have to get one more from him.
> 
> I plan on writing an actual full-length novel once I finish Crash Wagon. I have several ideas swimming around in my head. And yes, patience is key I guess.


I went to his DeviantArt profile and I love the stuff. I've got a pulpy, SF Adventure series coming up soon (Romancing the Stone meets Star Wars, I guess), and I would really like art like his for it.

Would you mind telling how much he charges per commission or series?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jason Eric Pryor (Jan 30, 2013)

B.J. Keeton said:


> I went to his DeviantArt profile and I love the stuff. I've got a pulpy, SF Adventure series coming up soon (Romancing the Stone meets Star Wars, I guess), and I would really like art like his for it.
> 
> Would you mind telling how much he charges per commission or series?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It would probably be best to just contact him for a quote. I don't really want to speak for him and misquote. I think he bases it on each situation. For example, he gave me a deal because he was doing all 5 covers for me.

I can tell you this. He's amazing to work with. He is VERY polite. Any time I asked for changes or revisions to a cover, not only did he comply, but he made comments about why he thought the change might work better and in some cases, even complimented me on making a great suggestion for a change. He's the easiest, most laid back artist I've ever worked with. Plus, he's just a great person. If I were you, I would just drop him a line and tell him about your project. He does stay busy, so he may or may not be able to start right away. But he'll tell you the rate.


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## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

On the topic of REACHING scifi readers, especially those squirrels away in the depths of the internet: I know we'veentioned a fee specific FB groups and a couple other things I'm forgetting at the moment, but what are some more ideas people have about digging them out of their holes? Like, specific, not just: Go where they are? Me, I can out-nerd a few peoplw, but not everyone, and I have some equally geeky friends to enlist. I can also draw in a not-to-shabby fashion, and I hope to draw some people in with weekly ary. But other than that and invading fan communities, I'm stumped.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Book Barbarian and scifi365.net - (I see scifi365 has commented above - I've used them for my scifi - they work) are my go-to promo sites for quality sci-fi reads and promos. I trust their stuff is good. 

In fact, as a science fiction and fantasy reader, I download  a lot more reads from BookBarbarian than Bookbub.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

I do agree that the traditionally published science fiction isn't hitting what the readers want right now; which is why indies are rocking the scifi genres such as Space Opera.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Where have you found that science fiction readers typically go to find new books and authors to read?


Lately, I've come right here, to KBoards for the best in SF. If a member's posts are witty, funny or just plain interesting, I'll check out their books in the sig. If the sample rocks, I'll buy it (or DL if it's a freebie). Haven't been disappointed yet!


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

_New Arrivals_, free, with no ad budget and a noob reach as reached #1 in Scifi-fi-military-Space Marines!!

cool

I updated a new version last night with smaller chapter headings and a couple of missing words getting fixed


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## Tim C. Taylor (May 17, 2011)

geronl said:


> _New Arrivals_, free, with no ad budget and a noob reach as reached #1 in Scifi-fi-military-Space Marines!!


Well done! I think your excellent artwork paid off. Doesn't matter why, enjoy it!


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I was pretty sick last night, but this made me feel somewhat better


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## KingSweden (Dec 16, 2013)

D-to-the-C said:


> Book Barbarian and scifi365.net - (I see scifi365 has commented above - I've used them for my scifi - they work) are my go-to promo sites for quality sci-fi reads and promos. I trust their stuff is good.
> 
> In fact, as a science fiction and fantasy reader, I download a lot more reads from BookBarbarian than Bookbub.


Thank you for this - I just submitted my first book to BookBarbarian. Hopefully it goes well


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

To be completely fair I have been following this and some other threads.  This is GREAT information.
I have some sci fi coming along as well as post apocalypse.

While I can have them finalized, proofed and edited by end summer I honestly don't think I have what it takes to compete against all the other writers out there.
I think the correct answer is to finish the books, get them up and then post to everyone and get reviews and see what happens.
Scary to think I spent all this time writing and thinking through different ideas only to balk because I am afraid of competition and possible negative reviews.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

_I honestly don't think I have what it takes to compete against all the other writers out there._

Me either, but I have given away 750 since it went free for the weekend yesterday.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

You aren't competing with all the other writers out there. People read more than one book. Someone who likes so and so might also like other books that are like that author's books.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

#1 in scifi=military-space marines now

#235 in all Kindle free ebooks

cool

I really should have waited for another book, lol, but I craved the attention. I will definitely do this again someday


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

I would love to put some spaceships on my covers, but although "The Atomic Sea" series is (more or less) sci-fi and does take place on an alternate world, there are no spaceships, nor is there interplanetary travel. Oh, well. I do love the cover I have, even if it doesn't hit the tropes.


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

The largest sci fi base I know are from forums and deviantart. Not sure of any other places where there is a big number of sci-fi lovers gathered in one place.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

jackconnerbooks said:


> I would love to put some spaceships on my covers, but.....


_
New Arrivals_ takes place entirely on the ground except for the part in a shuttle that crashes before reaching space


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2015)

Both Book Barbarian and SciFi365 look really interesting. Seems like those are two promo sites for serious sci fi writers to watch.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

over 954 given away, no advertising, I hardly even mentioned it on Twitter today.

Wait... I think Book Deals Daily has mentioned it. Thank you BDD.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

963 but who's keeping track?


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

There are NO aliens in my story. And all the action happens on the planet.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

Jack/Geron.
in a later book just have an alien race scream through the atmosphere in their large blinged out space ship.
Why?
Who knows their aliens!


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

tomgermann said:


> Jack/Geron.
> in a later book just have an alien race scream through the atmosphere in their large blinged out space ship.
> Why?
> Who knows their aliens!


Just one of those every day things in that future society, it's not even news anymore


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

Annie B said:


> You aren't competing with all the other writers out there. People read more than one book. Someone who likes so and so might also like other books that are like that author's books.


THIS!!! +100000


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

*1,005!*

I sure wish these were paid downloads. lol


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Both Book Barbarian and SciFi365 look really interesting. Seems like those are two promo sites for serious sci fi writers to watch.


I've used both for promotion and was very happy with the results. I also regularly find some great books in their mailing list. Definitely worth keeping an eye on.



vanstry said:


> THIS!!! +100000


Also, readers can perceive the same book in different ways. I've had one reader describe my book as "A rare experience" and "a unique and absorbing adventure" while another called it a "nice light read to pass the time". Both were good reviews. The readers obviously enjoyed it for different reasons.


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

geronl said:


> *1,005!*
> 
> I sure wish these were paid downloads. lol


Awesome! Good luck, brother!


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

This thread is spilling over with great information. Annie B., I appreciate your advice tremendously.  I've been following you for a while (even before I registered on kboards) and you're of real help. I checked out your books on Amazon and would like to ask you about Kindle Unlimited: have you ever tried it? Do you have any experience with it?

Another topic I find compelling are the sub-categories. I've been breaking my head for a while trying to figure out what type of a books falls within what category. Since geroni mentioned his book is in alien invasion and it has no aliens, it got me thinking…Basically, the rule of the thumb is that you put your book in the category it belongs to. Sometimes, though, I find books in categories I wouldn't normally associate them with.

The best example I can think of is The Atlantis Gene trilogy: the first book in the trilogy is ranking no. 1 in sci-fi romance. I'm currently reading the book, and I'm at 50% and there is, if anything, only a hint of barren romance waving from the Sahara desert. The third book, The Atlantis World, is ranking in space opera and galactic empire. I haven't read the third book, but when I think of space opera and galactic empire, the topic The Atlantis World is dealing with doesn't strike me as S-O or G-E much.  

How much do you extend your books to overlapping categories in order to let the algorithm work in your favor? How important, do you think, are your keywords? Do you use keywords suggested by Amazon or do you write your own?


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Jessie Jasen said:


> This thread is spilling over with great information. Annie B., I appreciate your advice tremendously.  I've been following you for a while (even before I registered on kboards) and you're of real help. I checked out your books on Amazon and would like to ask you about Kindle Unlimited: have you ever tried it? Do you have any experience with it?
> 
> Another topic I find compelling are the sub-categories. I've been breaking my head for a while trying to figure out what type of a books falls within what category. Since geroni mentioned his book is in alien invasion and it has no aliens, it got me thinking...Basically, the rule of the thumb is that you put your book in the category it belongs to. Sometimes, though, I find books in categories I wouldn't normally associate them with.
> 
> ...


I've been trying to work out the same thing for my upcoming scifi comedy series.

Book one: parallel worlds
Book two: Space opera
Book three: Alien invasion

The hope is I'll attract different readers to the series because of this, and not put them off...


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Barnaby, I was also wondering if mixing categories puts readers off. After studying the market, I came to the conclusion that the categories are more fluent than I originally thought (look at The Atlantis Gene example). 

On the other hand, I've also noticed that some writers put all of their series in one category. That strategy might have a powerful psychological effect on the readers who are interested in reading books in one specific category. 

I'm personally more inclined toward experimenting with different categories, though. You do get more people to notice your series that way.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Barnaby, I was also wondering if mixing categories puts readers off. After studying the market, I came to the conclusion that the categories are more fluent than I originally thought (look at The Atlantis Gene example).
> 
> On the other hand, I've also noticed that some writers put all of their series in one category. That strategy might have a powerful psychological effect on the readers who are interested in reading books in one specific category.
> 
> I'm personally more inclined toward experimenting with different categories, though. You do get more people to notice your series that way.


Yeah, I agree. It also helps if you have themes that link the books. Mine are all sub genres of scifi, all following the same characters and all humour/adventure stories.

Hopefully that helps!...


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

You need space ships for your cover? Step right this way...
http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-model/vehicle/spacecraft

You'll find pre-built models in a variety of formats, ranging in price from free to hundreds of dollars. Stay alert, as some are editorial-use only (and thus you can't use them on your book cover). Those that are restricted will say so on the right side of the model's detail page. As for software, you can find that in many places, ranging from free to hundreds (or thousands) of dollars. Make sure that you get a file type match between what you download and what your software works with. If you want custom work, you could probably contact artists through the site (a guess on my part, since I've never tried that).

I have some of the modeling software (e.g., Hexagon), just not the time to learn it -- or perhaps to learn that I lack 3D design talent. I'd love to add 3D models to my digital-content revenue, or at least share them for free, but that won't happen anytime soon, if ever. For now I grab models created by others and then build scenes from there. And yes, I know... not much talent there either.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

I find it a little depressing that the short stories in genre magazines do so little for sales. On the other hand, maybe it means that concentrating on longer fiction is really the way to go for me. I find the submission merry-go-round pretty discouraging some days.

I write mostly fantasy and only read a little sci fi. The three sci-fi books I've read in the past year have come from:
1. An online writer friend (Sherry Ramsey, _One's Aspect to the Sun_
2. What's hot (_The Martian_
3. Something to do with Goodreads, either a "also enjoyed" or through a Goodreads friend's book list (_The Sparrow_, which I'm currently reading).

So I think there could be something to gain through Goodreads.


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## Elonale (Mar 31, 2015)

vrabinec said:


> We're a strange lot. With me, it's a matter of perusing covers, then going to the blurb, then to the sample. It means I spend a long time looking for my next book. The cover has to convey the mood I'm in. The blurb has to hook me. And most importantly, the sample has to show a style of writing I would enjoy.


I'm With this guy 

must say that it's been years since i found a new author that will make me buy is books almost blindly.
For some odd reason it feels like most of the new sci-fi is re-rendering books and ideas or uses the genre sci-fi as a title for trash.
The Sample must be a glimpse into the "ingenious" core of the book.


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Barnaby, I was also wondering if mixing categories puts readers off.


It does.

I hate nothing more than books that have nothing to do with what I search for on Amazon to be infiltrating the results. Few days ago I searched for space opera, and out of the 20 results, five were paranormal romances that have zero to do with sci-fi overall, let alone space opera as a sub-cat. I didn't have to check the books either, a naked man with glowing eyes and a full moon behind him. Not really screaming sci-fi space opera to me. Same as with erotica. Few weeks ago I was offered to buy two books who if I didn't read the reviews, I would have thought them to be stories I liked. Turns out, two thirds of the book is sex. Not steamy romance type of stuff, but some serious taboo stuff.

I hate this as a writer, and I hate it as a reader. As a writer, you are pushing yourself onto my own territory, if I'm writing actual space opera, and as a reader, you are trying to trick me into buying it, or just annoying me if your cover says otherwise in search results. It would go so far as to me getting so pissed off I'd put a word out, but not the good kind. I blacklist such authors and warn others of their schemes, so that they don;t get tricked or waste their time. It feels beyond desperate, to butt in where your book doesn't belong as if you are not doing that great in your own category or genre or you want more. No reader wants an author like that.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Gaulvinov said:


> It does.
> 
> I hate nothing more than books that have nothing to do with what I search for on Amazon to be infiltrating the results. Few days ago I searched for space opera, and out of the 20 results, five were paranormal romances that have zero to do with sci-fi overall, let alone space opera as a sub-cat. I didn't have to check the books either, a naked man with glowing eyes and a full moon behind him. Not really screaming sci-fi space opera to me. Same as with erotica. Few weeks ago I was offered to buy two books who if I didn't read the reviews, I would have thought them to be stories I liked. Turns out, two thirds of the book is sex. Not steamy romance type of stuff, but some serious taboo stuff.
> 
> I hate this as a writer, and I hate it as a reader. As a writer, you are pushing yourself onto my own territory, if I'm writing actual space opera, and as a reader, you are trying to trick me into buying it, or just annoying me if your cover says otherwise in search results. It would go so far as to me getting so p*ssed off I'd put a word out, but not the good kind. I blacklist such authors and warn others of their schemes, so that they don;t get tricked or waste their time. It feels beyond desperate, to butt in where your book doesn't belong as if you are not doing that great in your own category or genre or you want more. No reader wants an author like that.


I was actually referring to having a series -- let's say it's about a spaceship on an exploration mission -- and, depending on what every book is about, putting each book in a different category, e.g. first is space opera, second alien invasion, third colonization, etc. I wasn't referring to writers trying to cheat on the readers. 

But you made a good point. I hate when writers put books in categories they don't belong in. I saw some time ago that sci-fi was flooded with bear paranormal erotica. It really irritated me. Luckily, those books are now gone.


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## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

On the topic of awesome artists. FYI, I have no idea if they'd be up for doing book covers or what the cost. Some actually do concept work for movies and such. But figured I'd throw the pretties out there.

http://leventep.deviantart.com/
http://thedurrrrian.deviantart.com/
http://crazyasian1.deviantart.com/
http://alexwild.deviantart.com/gallery/440660/Space-SF-Art
http://jademacalla.deviantart.com/ (cool stock art. Not sure about his terms for commercial use.)
http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/
http://snowskadi.deviantart.com/


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

Jessie Jasen said:


> I was actually referring to having a series -- let's say it's about a spaceship on an exploration mission -- and, depending on what every book is about, putting each book in a different category, e.g. first is space opera, second alien invasion, third colonization, etc. I wasn't referring to writers trying to cheat on the readers.


For a while I was thinking of writing one single book made of different parts and having the parts fit into different subgenres (so... something similar basically). I think the idea would be really cool. Might be a bit of a hassle when it comes to placing it into a category, but just as an artistic experiment I think it's worth pursuing.

P.S: Jessie, I see you're from Vienna. One of my favorite cities. Just saw an awesome concert at the Konzerthaus in February  It's nice to run into someone on KBoards who lives relatively close to where I do (Timisoara, Romania).


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jessie- I have a handful of titles in Select. I personally don't like it much and wouldn't put anything over short story or novella length in. I prefer to have my stuff widely available since it gives me more stability and more options for things like perma-free etc. I've probably lost 20k at least by not having my main series in Select, but eh. Oh well. My non-Amazon sales could pay all my bills, and that at least feels like security sorta since if Amazon were to delist the books or go down or something, I wouldn't be totally doomed.

As for keywords, sure, use different ones for each book in a series... but ONLY if they actually apply to that book. If you have no aliens, don't use the aliens keyword. If you have no space travel, don't put it in that category. You want people who actually WANT what you are selling to find your books.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Andrei Cherascu said:


> Awesome! Good luck, brother!


I definitely enjoyed the book!


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

geronl said:


> I definitely enjoyed the book!


I'm honored that you read it and that you liked it. I got my copy of New Arrivals too and am looking forward to reading it  Working round-the-clock right now to finish the manuscript for the sequel so I can publish it in July but I'm looking forward to rewarding myself with a lot of reading time this summer  I'll let you know when I'm on it!


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

Jessie Jasen said:


> I was actually referring to having a series -- let's say it's about a spaceship on an exploration mission -- and, depending on what every book is about, putting each book in a different category, e.g. first is space opera, second alien invasion, third colonization, etc. I wasn't referring to writers trying to cheat on the readers.
> 
> But you made a good point. I hate when writers put books in categories they don't belong in. I saw some time ago that sci-fi was flooded with bear paranormal erotica. It really irritated me. Luckily, those books are now gone.


Hi Jessie

It seems I misunderstood what you meant lol. Yes, I thought you were referring to the cheaters. What you describe is very well within what's not only acceptable, but probably encouraged, since these differences need to shine in their own category, if there are different tropes and concepts entertained in each edition of the series.

I have a series too, that may do some serious hopping on the categories as its kinda lengthy. I'm still clueless as to how I'd pull it off, there's a lot going on. If you pull it off, I'd appreciate if you share the experience 



Andrei Cherascu said:


> I think the idea would be really cool. Might be a bit of a hassle when it comes to placing it into a category, but just as an artistic experiment I think it's worth pursuing.


If you manage to pull it off, let us know. I have a similar problem and I have no idea how to go about it solving the damn thing .



Bishoppess said:


> On the topic of awesome artists. FYI, I have no idea if they'd be up for doing book covers or what the cost. Some actually do concept work for movies and such. But figured I'd throw the pretties out there.
> 
> http://leventep.deviantart.com/
> http://thedurrrrian.deviantart.com/
> ...


That's some amazing talent right there. I can ask around when time comes to pick covers, I'm not shy .


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Elonale said:


> I'm With this guy
> 
> must say that it's been years since i found a new author that will make me buy is books almost blindly.
> For some odd reason it feels like most of the new sci-fi is re-rendering books and ideas or uses the genre sci-fi as a title for trash.
> The Sample must be a glimpse into the "ingenious" core of the book.


Not saying that you meant it the way I'm talking about, but you reminded me of a pet peeve, which is when people remark that something in a sci-fi book has been done before. Well, if it is a highly logical thing that is completely likely to actually be used in the future, then not having it in the book seems pretty silly to me. I use lots of things in my books that have been done before precisely because I think they will happen, but I do try to find new and logical ways of using them that I haven't seen done before.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Andrei Cherascu said:


> I'm honored that you read it and that you liked it. I got my copy of New Arrivals too and am looking forward to reading it  Working round-the-clock right now to finish the manuscript for the sequel so I can publish it in July but I'm looking forward to rewarding myself with a lot of reading time this summer  I'll let you know when I'm on it!


_New Arrivals_ really is kind of light reading though, I fixed a few things yesterday and apparently that only updates for those who download it after.


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## Tim C. Taylor (May 17, 2011)

vanstry said:


> THIS!!! +100000


And another ten thousand from me.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Jessie- I have a handful of titles in Select. I personally don't like it much and wouldn't put anything over short story or novella length in. I prefer to have my stuff widely available since it gives me more stability and more options for things like perma-free etc. I've probably lost 20k at least by not having my main series in Select, but eh. Oh well. My non-Amazon sales could pay all my bills, and that at least feels like security sorta since if Amazon were to delist the books or go down or something, I wouldn't be totally doomed.
> 
> As for keywords, sure, use different ones for each book in a series... but ONLY if they actually apply to that book. If you have no aliens, don't use the aliens keyword. If you have no space travel, don't put it in that category. You want people who actually WANT what you are selling to find your books.


Annie, when I read that you lost at least 20k, I fainted for a sec or two, but now I've recovered.  I understand your perspective when it comes to going wide. Having security is better than putting all your eggs in one basket. It might also pay off more in the long term, since you're an established writer.

Thanks for your advice on keywords! 

Andrei -- should you ever come to Vienna, drop me a line! I'd be very happy to meet a fellow author who lives in the hood.


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## KingSweden (Dec 16, 2013)

This thread has been a huge help - I applied to BookBarbarian yesterday, and they accepted _The Forbidden Army_ on my first submission! Granted, it has the required 10 reviews and is 1.99, but still. I've had enough rejections from book promo sites that this excites me, and I couldn't have done it without kboards. I love this forum so much, even if I mostly only lurk to soak up and read advice.

I'm interested in the strategy discussed further up the thread about using different keywords for each book in a series. Seems like an interesting strategy, at least in terms of getting eyeballs on your books. Might be worth a try.

Henrik


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

It's also a good site for finding when people put their books on freebie for a while.... just saying


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

Gaulvinov said:


> It does.
> 
> I hate nothing more than books that have nothing to do with what I search for on Amazon to be infiltrating the results. Few days ago I searched for space opera, and out of the 20 results, five were paranormal romances that have zero to do with sci-fi overall, let alone space opera as a sub-cat. I didn't have to check the books either, a naked man with glowing eyes and a full moon behind him. Not really screaming sci-fi space opera to me. Same as with erotica. Few weeks ago I was offered to buy two books who if I didn't read the reviews, I would have thought them to be stories I liked. Turns out, two thirds of the book is sex. Not steamy romance type of stuff, but some serious taboo stuff.
> 
> I hate this as a writer, and I hate it as a reader. As a writer, you are pushing yourself onto my own territory, if I'm writing actual space opera, and as a reader, you are trying to trick me into buying it, or just annoying me if your cover says otherwise in search results. It would go so far as to me getting so p*ssed off I'd put a word out, but not the good kind. I blacklist such authors and warn others of their schemes, so that they don;t get tricked or waste their time. It feels beyond desperate, to butt in where your book doesn't belong as if you are not doing that great in your own category or genre or you want more. No reader wants an author like that.


Honestly, I was having this problem early this morning. I'd finally found what I was looking for and filled my new kindle with a nice handful of indie scifi books but I didn't appreciate wading through paranormal were wolve stuff while searching through the space opera category. I'm sure many other scifi readers feel this way too.


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

geronl said:


> _New Arrivals_ really is kind of light reading though, I fixed a few things yesterday and apparently that only updates for those who download it after.


I'm looking forward to reading it 



Jessie Jasen said:


> Andrei -- should you ever come to Vienna, drop me a line! I'd be very happy to meet a fellow author who lives in the hood.


Jessie, I'll definitely be in Vienna sooner rather than later. Not only do I absolutely love the city but my brother in law lives there, so we visit him from time to time. It would be awesome to hang out with a fellow author and KBoarder  I'll let you know the next time I'm around.


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Victoria J said:


> ...I didn't appreciate wading through paranormal were wolve stuff while searching through the space opera category. I'm sure many other scifi readers feel this way too.


I first noticed this when looking at one of the subcategories that one of my books landed in, specifically "Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > Two hours or more (65-100 pages) > Science Fiction & Fantasy" which, as we can see, has lots of the paranormal romance/erotica whatever. I'm _pretty sure_ that's not what people clicking over to that subcategory are expecting to see; in fact, I'd bet even the authors of those books would not expect their titles to be in a science fiction category.

This is an algorithm problem (not something the authors assign) and I plan on complaining to Amazon about it, as a reader, because having those books in that category is not helpful for finding something new to read. Having my book in that subcat might be getting it where the science fiction readers are, and I specifically want to reach those who are looking for short reads, but those readers will never see it with so many other non-science-fiction titles to page through.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Amazon algorithm is a combo of categories and keywords that place a book in a subcategory. Your books will appear in certain subcategories if you put specific keywords Amazon offers that determine the subcat. Those writers must have chosen specific keywords and categories their books appear in consciously for their erotica books to land in space exploration. You can try complaining to Amazon, but I don't think they can do much about it except remove the books manually.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Amazon algorithm is a combo of categories and keywords that place a book in a subcategory. Your books will appear in certain subcategories if you put specific keywords Amazon offers that determine the subcat. Those writers must have chosen specific keywords and categories their books appear in consciously for their erotica books to land in space exploration. You can try complaining to Amazon, but I don't think they can do much about it except remove the books manually.


There are KDP instructions for getting your books in categories. Here is the SF/F page: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A2G3ZMYDPB9VRM&


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## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

I get the feeling they might just tell you to check the filter box that says "non-romance" over in the sidebar. Course, that's just a guess. But it IS there.


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Bishoppess said:


> I get the feeling they might just tell you to check the filter box that says "non-romance" over in the sidebar. Course, that's just a guess. But it IS there.


I just looked via the link I posted above and there is no such filter. That link is based on looking at a book I find interesting and using the category links to see more like it, which is definitely not the actual UX result.

After looking again at the keyword/category info from KDP linked above, which I've used previously, I realized the problem is not that it's a sub_category_ but a sub_set_, algorithmically determined by length, of the fantasy/science fiction super-category. If the paranormal romance stuff is also considered urban fantasy (I'm guessing; obviously it's not my genre) then those titles are "valid" for that listing. I still believe that this is _not_ what a science fiction reader will want to see & page through when going from a science fiction book of interest to a category listing of "similar" books. Showing results that are radically different from customer expectations is not a winning scenario for anyone, not even Amazon.


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## Jason Eric Pryor (Jan 30, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Both Book Barbarian and SciFi365 look really interesting. Seems like those are two promo sites for serious sci fi writers to watch.


Scifi365 picked up Crash Wagon and I didn't do anything. I had never heard of the site. One day, I got a Google alert for "Crash Wagon". So I clicked it and it took me to the Scifi365 page with Crash Wagon on it. Got a pretty decent boost from it too.

For those not already doing it, you might want to set up a Google Alert for your book titles and author name. I have found my books pop up on several sites that I didn't know about or haven't heard of. Sometimes, I see a boost in downloads, not knowing where it came from. Then, a few hours later, I get a Google Alert for a site that is running my book. It's pretty cool.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Jason Eric Pryor said:


> Scifi365 picked up Crash Wagon and I didn't do anything. I had never heard of the site. One day, I got a Google alert for "Crash Wagon". So I clicked it and it took me to the Scifi365 page with Crash Wagon on it. Got a pretty decent boost from it too.


I posted my review of your book on Facebook and linked to your Amazon on a Twitter post. I don't have much social reach, so I am not claiming any credit or anything.


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## Jason Eric Pryor (Jan 30, 2013)

geronl said:


> I posted my review of your book on Facebook and linked to your Amazon on a Twitter post. I don't have much social reach, so I am not claiming any credit or anything.


Thank you!


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## dragontucker (Jul 18, 2014)

I am confused. From my research I found the post apocalypse genre to be profitable. But some in this thread are saying its not?


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I guess I am going to start using the hashtag #scifi365 on Twitter too, you never know I guess


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

dragontucker said:


> I am confused. From my research I found the post apocalypse genre to be profitable. But some in this thread are saying its not?


My next story has a post-apoc Earth but all the colony worlds are in various states of normal. Earth was declared off-limits and the remnants left there were deformed and marked by radiation or plagues.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2015)

dragontucker said:


> I am confused. From my research I found the post apocalypse genre to be profitable. But some in this thread are saying its not?


I'm sure it's plenty profitable, but I wanted to ask about space-based science fiction specifically: space opera, military SF, far future, sword & planet, science fantasy, etc. The term "science fiction" has become so broad with the YA explosion, you really have to make the distinction.


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## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

Trying not to derail things. But does anyone else think science fiction and think: Literature, in space/the future? 
I think that's one of my biggest struggles with the genre ad a whole, reading AND trying to write it. For the longest time, the greatest (opinion there) works weren't written so much with entertainment in mind as they also had an agenda/an idea to explore. I never took American Lit or British Lit in high school. I took Science Fiction. And it was treated as literature, with analysis any everything (the original The Birds story. Holy crud). So reading it for pure entertainment, or writing it for fun and profit; it's a little hard to wrap head around...


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## Andrei Cherascu (Sep 17, 2014)

Jason Eric Pryor said:


> For those not already doing it, you might want to set up a Google Alert for your book titles and author name. I have found my books pop up on several sites that I didn't know about or haven't heard of. Sometimes, I see a boost in downloads, not knowing where it came from. Then, a few hours later, I get a Google Alert for a site that is running my book. It's pretty cool.


Awesome tip! Thanks, brother. Had never heard of it before but it seems very useful.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

Bishoppess said:


> Trying not to derail things. But does anyone else think science fiction and think: Literature, in space/the future?
> I think that's one of my biggest struggles with the genre ad a whole, reading AND trying to write it. For the longest time, the greatest (opinion there) works weren't written so much with entertainment in mind as they also had an agenda/an idea to explore. I never took American Lit or British Lit in high school. I took Science Fiction. And it was treated as literature, with analysis any everything (the original The Birds story. Holy crud). So reading it for pure entertainment, or writing it for fun and profit; it's a little hard to wrap head around...


I read toward the literature/exploration of ideas end of sci-fi far more often than I go to the genre for action-adventure (and fantasy, too, but I read more broadly there). I sometimes wonder if trad pub still gives authors a bigger leg up when writing more idea-driven or literary speculative fiction.


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## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

Bishoppess said:


> Trying not to derail things. But does anyone else think science fiction and think: Literature, in space/the future?
> I think that's one of my biggest struggles with the genre ad a whole, reading AND trying to write it. For the longest time, the greatest (opinion there) works weren't written so much with entertainment in mind as they also had an agenda/an idea to explore. I never took American Lit or British Lit in high school. I took Science Fiction. And it was treated as literature, with analysis any everything (the original The Birds story. Holy crud). So reading it for pure entertainment, or writing it for fun and profit; it's a little hard to wrap head around...


I think that Science Fiction authors are just as varied as those in any other field. From them you'll get the gamut from "Dune" to "Stand By For Mars!", those who write to explore new ideas and those who write Science Fiction for fun and profit, as you said. I'm not against reading something which stretches my imagination and makes me think, nor against a nice little romp.

I recall reading Starship Troopers when I was in elementary school -- and, yes, The Birds as well. At that time I didn't think of the ideas behind them, just that they were interesting reading. [Okay, yes, The Birds did frighten me.] Then I read "Dune" in 1st year college, and the possibilities of the SF genre opened up to me.

As to where the SF readers are? I don't know. I'm here ... but I'm alone. And scared. There's a couple of birds chirping outside my window, and my cat is sleeping. Doesn't he know that I have him for protection?


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## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

D.A. Boulter said:


> I think that Science Fiction authors are just as varied as those in any other field. From them you'll get the gamut from "Dune" to "Stand By For Mars!", those who write to explore new ideas and those who write Science Fiction for fun and profit, as you said. I'm not against reading something which stretches my imagination and makes me think, nor against a nice little romp.
> 
> [Okay, yes, The Birds did frighten me.] ... There's a couple of birds chirping outside my window, and my cat is sleeping. Doesn't he know that I have him for protection?


Lol. I was living in a coastal in Alaska when I first read that story. So we had (in order of creepiness) piles of ravens, flocks and flocks of gulls, and bald eagles by the fistfull. I gave them ALL a very wide berth any time I saw them. And they WATCHED me.

Edit: on the serious side, Anne McCaffery and Orson Scott Card were two of my first scifi authors. They got me hooked on the entertainment end of things.


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## VG2311 (May 1, 2015)

As an SF reader, I have found my latest books on Book Bub. As a preview vehicle it is quite good.  I've also found mystery, and military fiction there as well. All told in the last two months I've been subscribed to bookbub, I've bought 12 ebooks from them, so they must be doing something right.


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## HStokes (Feb 12, 2013)

Interesting.  So the term Sci-fi is mostly associated with space events?  I assumed my novel would be considered science fiction because it contained issues of genetic manipulation, but zero space involvement.

Did I put my novel in the wrong genre?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Stokes- that's still science fiction. Just not Space Opera or something like that. There are plenty of categories for non-space involved SF also.


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## Jason Eric Pryor (Jan 30, 2013)

HStokes said:


> Interesting. So the term Sci-fi is mostly associated with space events? I assumed my novel would be considered science fiction because it contained issues of genetic manipulation, but zero space involvement.
> 
> Did I put my novel in the wrong genre?


Nah. One of my favorite sci-fi writers is Philip K. Dick. A lot of his stuff has nothing to do with space. Minority Report, Paycheck, The Golden Man, and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep (Blade Runner) come to mind.


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

Ghost in the Shell is a really good non-space related science fiction.

Mona Lisa Overdrive?

There are many.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

HStokes said:


> Interesting. So the term Sci-fi is mostly associated with space events? I assumed my novel would be considered science fiction because it contained issues of genetic manipulation, but zero space involvement.
> 
> Did I put my novel in the wrong genre?


No, but the OP asked specifically about Space Opera.

There are other tropes:

Cyberpunk: usually has something digital on the cover, often with stylised people
Genetic SF: often has a strand of DNA on the cover
Disaster fiction/prepper SF: usually has a dilapidated city or a backlit electricity tower against a bright red sunset

My point is that it's really important that the covers hit the right tropes.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Jeff Tanyard said:


> You're a good man, Charlie Brown.  Seriously, I think it's great the way you've supported Jason and some of the other authors here.


Aw, shucks.. thanks.


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## scifi365 (Sep 12, 2014)

Hutchinson said:


> Is alternative history fantasy or SF?


Yes. I hope that helps!

Seriously, it could be either. I think if the alternative history itself is based on Scientific differences, then it's probably SF. Otherwise, not.

For my own part (and this applies to the www.Scifi365.net newsletter too), I would consider Steampunk to be Science Fiction. Steampunk is pretty much by definition alternative history.

Otherwise, it would depend on the individual book and, in some cases, the individual author.


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Well, I'm wondering how I should tag a set of short stories I'm releasing in August, given that it has a cover that looks like fantasy but the stories are a mix of both fantasy and sci-fi. I guess I could tag it as both, but I wonder if it will piss off readers who see a fantasy cover but find it in sci-fi?


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## B.J. Keeton (Jul 8, 2010)

Ted Cross said:


> Well, I'm wondering how I should tag a set of short stories I'm releasing in August, given that it has a cover that looks like fantasy but the stories are a mix of both fantasy and sci-fi. I guess I could tag it as both, but I wonder if it will p*ss off readers who see a fantasy cover but find it in sci-fi?


I haven't found a lot of people getting pissed at that. My series (you can see in the sig) are more fantasy-skewed covers, but they're SF books at heart. (Science-fantasy, really). I used to keep them split between Epic Fantasy and Space Opera as my main categories, and I never really got any bad blood from that.

I have since moved out of Epic Fantasy and into SF Adventure, but this morning I went and adjusted some keywords to see if stuff like Swords and Sorcery and whatnot end up hitting with a few more fantasy readers. It's hard to categorize hybrid-genre stuff and make sure you're walking that line. But no, I haven't seen any backlash so far--just some "this wasn't what I usually read, but I liked it!" kind of comments.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Eh. I have collections that are a mix of SF and Fantasy stories. I list them in all the SF/F categories that apply. Nobody complains.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2015)

Well, I can say that Book Barbarian works very well! Did a promo with them today for *Brothers in Exile (Sons of the Starfarers: Book I)*, and got 400+ downloads on Amazon US, pushing the book up to #1 in the science fiction > space opera subcategory! I'm also seeing an increase in sales of the other books in the series, so it appears that the promo is targeting the right people. Will definitely use again.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I'll try to remember that when I get some kind of budget for it.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2015)

For $8, it was definitely worth it. Made back the money on the first day, and it cost me as much as a high-end burrito.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Joe Vasicek said:


> For $8, it was definitely worth it. Made back the money on the first day, and it cost me as much as a high-end burrito.


Is that all? That does sound quite reasonable.


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