# Is marketing tantamount to cheating?



## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

Is marketing tantamount to cheating – gaining an undeserved advantage? 

Especially aggressive, well-funded marketing?

We are all in competition for the limited dollars that readers can spend on books. It is now, I believe, well established that those authors who use the FREE marketing strategy benefit greatly from that strategy and that some of those authors who don’t use the strategy resent this, feel that it is unfair and damages their own prospects. The impact of free promotions is driven largely by exposure from the big paid-for sites, especially Bookbub.

I don't really have an ideological dog in this race, but note that in some places, politicians who are running for an election are limited to how much they can spend on a campaign, the idea being that all candidates have the same limit and therefore are putting themselves out on a ‘level playing field’.

It seems fair.

This doesn’t happen in the world of commercial marketing, in our case -- marketing our indie books. Those with bigger budgets can access bigger marketing opportunities.  Bookbub is a case in point. They are expensive but extremely effective it seems;  a great benefit to those who can get on the service, and a resultant comparative disadvantage to those who cannot access the service.

I have a lot of sympathy with the argument that those who put in the time and effort (not just money) to actively market their work are deserving of the comparative advantage that effort brings them.  But when that comparative advantage is gained through the plonking down  of a handful of dollars –not so much.

That said, I will follow the strategy which seems to promise the greatest chance of success within a reasonable budget.  This is just a somewhat idle thought really, interested in KBoarders' thoughts and not a thought I am emotionally attached to, but:

Is aggressive, well-funded marketing tantamount to cheating?


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

I wouldn't call it cheating.  Gaining an advantage?  Yes.  Is it unfair?  Well, I can't sit here all night on that one.

People often spend a lot to make little.  Take all those people raising millions of dollars to get a job paying $174,000.

I just released a new book and could have put it out on several sites that will list it for free.  I didn't bother because I didn't think it would be effective.  I too have a limited budget and just spent $60 for a blog tour that won't even take place for 6 to 8 weeks out.  Hard to say if I'll recoup that cost, or when.

Perhaps a better question would be, what is the cost of doing nothing?


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Well, if you choose not to market your books, wouldn't you be cheating yourself?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

If I am not winning, he must be cheating.


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

Dunno.

Just watched the latest excellent CNN episode on the Cold War in which we see the CIA covertly dumping sackfulls of millions of dollars into the campaigns of the anti-Communist parties in Italy after World War II. Money to produce leaflets, other propaganda materials, fund rallies, cover all kinds of campaign expenses.

Would that not be considered cheating, or at least gaining a financially-fuelled advantage since the other side did not have those financial resources?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I actually looked 'cheating' up. MW defines cheating as "to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something". I can't imagine what rule or law advertising would be breaking. If it is, I don't plan on stopping though.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Of course it's not cheating. The people plunking down money for BookBub ads aren't growing those dollars on trees. Unless the author is a born millionaire - and I've never met any of those - all their money comes from someplace. Maybe from saving out of their grocery money. Maybe from working an extra job or making other sacrifices. Even if they've been publishing long enough to have earned the ad money through sales, those dollars still represent months or years of struggle to get where they are today.


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## Blue Kincaid (Dec 30, 2013)

Since when is life fair? Why would anyone want or expect it to be? Fair only leads to mediocrity and I want more from my life (and my work) than a Participant ribbon.


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## RichardWolanski (Jan 20, 2014)

I understand your point, OP. 

However, as being an indie author stands, it's necessary to market. There's too many books competing for eyes and marketing is the best way to gain potential readers. I cannot take out a  bookbub ad for the  novella series I'm doing now (and finishing this month). However, with my new series once I've gained enough reviews, I'll be submitting to Bookbub and see if I can qualify for an ad. There are authors who say they've made it with zero marketing strategies and they are truly gods among men. I don't like the idea of aggressive marketing but for most of us, it's essential.  

I wouldn't call it cheating, just uneven...which is just capitalism.


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> I actually looked 'cheating' up. MW defines cheating as "to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something". I can't imagine what rule or law advertising would be breaking. If it is, I don't plan on stopping though.


I don't plan on stopping either. I didn't intend to imply marketing was the same as cheating. That's why I said "tantamount".

However, I just looked up "tantamount". I thought it meant "nearly the same as...".

Apparently not:



> tantamount (ˈtæntəˌmaʊnt)
> adj
> 1. (foll by: to) as good (as); equivalent in effect (to):


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

I don't believe it is cheating, nor really unfair. Depends on if you play the long game or the short game, I suppose. 

In the short game, a marketing blitz with full-page ads or such can entice people to buy just about anything. If the book is not good, eventually it will stop selling (minus any '50 Shades' books, I suppose?) as word gets around. Those that paid up front will feel suckered, or just shrug and figure it was only $5 or $10, whatever, though I'm sure they'll think twice about doing such a thing again with that author. 

In the long game, a good book will eventually make its way into casual conversations and discussions about good books to read. A good book is a better marketing strategy than any marketing blitz. A good book will continue to sell for a long time after the marketing catch phrases and tag lines have been worn away by newer, more catchy versions. 

Basically, an ad campaign can't make a mediocre or poor book a good book. It can make it popular, and to some, there's not a lot of difference. I'm sure Britney and Paris and Bieber don't care if they are good at what they do or not. They are too popular to care about such mundane things. 

And of course, what is a good book? To you, it might be something Stephen King wrote, and to me, Stephen King should maybe inhale toxic fumes from the town's tire fire so he never writes another book again. 

(for the record, Stephen King is my favorite author ever, I've been reading his books since I was seven as my mom always bought every single book he put out, and they were way more interesting than Nancy Drew or boring crime novels... kids don't know crime like they know nightmares/horror/fear lol).


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## JohnHindmarsh (Jun 3, 2011)

Kinda silly question, really. Self or indie publishing is a business - which means you conduct your marketing in a businesslike manner...


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

JohnHindmarsh said:


> Kinda silly question, really. Self or indie publishing is a business - which means you conduct your marketing in a businesslike manner...


The issue for me with your statement is the implication that the most successful product will be as a result of the most effective marketing. Not as a result of the best quality product.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Yes, marketing is tantamount to cheating.

Writing is your lawful spouse, your long-term-partner, your soul mate. You are _married _to writing.

Marketing is a little piece on the side, a fling, your one-night stand or three-week tryst. Something you're not supposed to do, but feel you _have_ to do. You know it's not right, but you can't stop.

In this sense, yes. Marketing is cheating.


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## Nebula (May 29, 2013)

Blue Kincaid said:


> Since when is life fair? Why would anyone want or expect it to be? Fair only leads to mediocrity and I want more from my life (and my work) than a Participant ribbon.


^ ^ ^
A hundred thousand thumbs up. If you're not prepared to do what it takes to stand out from the crowd, be prepared to blend into the background.

To the OP

I think you're wrong when you says something like


> "Bookbub is a case in point. They are expensive but extremely effective it seems; a great benefit to those who can get on the service, and a resultant comparative disadvantage to those who cannot access the service."


 Bookbub is an advantage to those who get to use it, but how is it a disadvantage to those who can't? At worst it doesn't affect them at all. I've never used Bookbub, or any other real advertising for that matter, but I do get decent sales because people who read my books recommend them to others.

The bottom line for me is this. No matter what kind of advertising a bad book (by which I mean a book that even readers of the specific genre don't like.) gets, it won't become a bestseller. A 'good' book will find it's audience even without a big advertising campaign. To illustrate that, I'll post a comment Cassia Leo posted about a year ago before she became very successful.



That one girl said:


> Different things work for different genres and different books within those genres.
> 
> For me, the most important thing was generating buzz BEFORE I released the book. Facebook and book bloggers have been invaluable in this respect. First, I contacted a book blogger about handling a book tour for me. Then I paid for an awesome cover and did a cover reveal on some popular book blogs. I then released periodic "teasers" as I was writing and bloggers were generous enough to share my teasers with their readers. Once the book was released, I had at least a hundred readers who were highly anticipating the release and about a thousand people who'd marked it as to-read on Goodreads. I also sent out about 50 ARCs the week before release, so I had a couple dozen book bloggers who had already read and enjoyed the book and were eager to help me promote it.
> 
> ...


Instead of concentrating on something like advertising vs no-advertising as the determinant or inhibitor of success, I think authors should be willing to do the research, brainstorm, try new things, and above all judge their book through the eyes of the intended reader.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Those people who write well are cheating.  It's unfair that they have talents that I don't.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

NO!!!!! When I started, I didn't want to spend the money on marketing, cover design, editing, or proofing...and I didn't. My book succeeded, and I had money to do all of those things for the second book, plus go back and revamp book one. "Success" in this market is not dependent on marketing, but the level of success will often be reflected by the effort (and in many cases, money) you put into arranging the list above. Of course, you also have to write a good book within your genre. Without that, no amount of money (unless we are talking suitcases full) will ultimately make a difference.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Philip Gibson said:


> I have a lot of sympathy with the argument that those who put in the time and effort (not just money) to actively market their work are deserving of the comparative advantage that effort brings them. But when that comparative advantage is gained through the plonking down of a handful of dollars -not so much.


So it's ok for people to use up their own time, effort and energy doing something as an amateur, but somehow not ok for them to make the decision to outsource it to a professional who does it for them? It's unusual "logic".


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

It's no more cheating than the choice to write in a popular v. an unpopular genre is cheating.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Phil,


So long as you are the underfunded loser, advertising is cheating.

Once you become the well-funded winner, that definition changes.

I wouldn't call advertising gaining an "undeserved" advantage.

Anyone who can raise enough money to gain an advantage "deserves" what they've paid for, I guess. They probably had to do some hard work to raise the funds to purchase the advertising, after all.

So "undeserved" is a word I'd be hesitant to use.

It's definitely an advantage, though.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

Philip Gibson said:


> Is marketing tantamount to cheating - gaining an undeserved advantage?
> 
> Especially aggressive, well-funded marketing?


No.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Things are getting silly around here lately.


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## JaroldWilliams (Jan 9, 2014)

Terrence OBrien said:


> If I am not winning, he must be cheating.


What he ^^^ said.


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## CarlSinclair (Apr 7, 2013)

It isn't cheating. It's just how business works. If you want to run a succesful business and compete in a tough market, you need to get your product in front of people. The best way, usually, is to spend money to get it in front of your audience.

Eye level is buy level. That's a term the big chain stores use. If you have your product on a shelf in front of people's eyes, or at eye level. They will buy. Same goes for e-books. If people see it, t hey will buy it. The best way to get them to see it is to pay for as much promotion as you can (BookBub) etc. 

While a lot of people may not be able to afford a lot, and that is unfortunate, a lot of indies really need to consider the word sacrifice. 

I see a ton of people complaining they can't pay for this ad or that. Yet when I see their blogs or social media... they tweet about the dinner they just had out at a restaurant, or the new video game they got, or the new dress. 

For me, if you can afford that but not to support your business (which we are) with the money that is required, then you aren't taking it seriously enough.

Sacrifice the luxuries in life to spend money where it is going to help you most - selling books. That's how I see it.

Now I know that is generalisation Some people don't have any extra income to buy things that they could divert to their books promotion. That is where you should be doing everything you can to find other ways, from building connections with other indies and reaching out to people for guest blogs etc. Anything you can do really to get attention.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Patrick Szabo said:


> Things are getting silly around here lately.


That happens, sometimes, in internet forums. Especially when your definition of "silly" is "things I disagree with".


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Patrick Szabo said:


> Things are getting silly around here lately.


Exactly what I thought when I read the OP.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

Patrick Szabo said:


> Things are getting silly around here lately.


Good, I'm not the only one that noticed.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

This is one of the most ridiculous suggestions I have ever seen.

Someone please tell me what business you can open with no capital? But yet, some writers want to balk at investing even $100 in their business. Most businesses require tens or hundreds of thousands to open. Here is an opportunity to do something stellar for probably less than $2k to get everything perfect and some people aren't even willing to put together a plan to do so. Most every successful indie I know was working a day job (some more than one) and writing 60 hours a week to launch their careers. The day job wasn't because they needed something to do. It was because they needed to pay bills and get money for their business. I know SAHMs that sold stuff on ebay, watched other people's kids after school, and bartered for editing and covers. 

I look at all advertising opportunities from a cost/benefit standpoint, but you can bet that if I think the benefit is there, I will find a way to swing the cost, even if it means continuing to give up things like vacations, cool things I want personally, etc. The long-term is what I'm invested in.


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## Rich Rojas (Jan 27, 2014)

I think you may be confusing business with things like politics, foreign policy, etc. Writing, publishing, and promoting books is, at the end of the day, a business. Spending money on your business is expected, at least if you hope to have a chance of growing it. Now, it's the business owner's responsibility to himself and any stakeholders to expect a positive ROI on the money he spends on his business or at least learn something beneficial in the process. It's only cheating if you're breaking the law in some way.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

swolf said:


> Those people who write well are cheating. It's unfair that they have talents that I don't.


I might disagree with you. I think you tell a fine tail.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

swolf said:


> Those people who write well are cheating. It's unfair that they have talents that I don't.


Perfect. In fact, I don't like the fact that we all write different stories. How is that fair? What if readers like your genre/story/idea/plot better than mine? So, let's get together on a mutually agreed upon story *pause for braying laughter here* and then we can all offer that one story to readers. Then, we'll all have the same advantage with readers as everyone else.

My mom had a saying, "Fair isn't everybody getting what they want. Fair isn't everybody getting the same thing. Fair is everyone having the opportunity to work for it."


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Yes, yes it is. It's a subversion of the idea that quality and merit are virtues.

On the other hand, capitalism is about being as scummy as you can get away with and literally everyone is cheating, so if you don't you are a chump.


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## minxmalone (Oct 28, 2012)

Donna White Glaser said:


> My mom had a saying, "Fair isn't everybody getting what they want. Fair isn't everybody getting the same thing. Fair is everyone having the opportunity to work for it."


Your mom sounds like mine. I love it!

And yes, things are definitely getting silly around here lately. It's almost like people want an easy button...


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> On the other hand, capitalism is about being as scummy as you can get away with and literally everyone is cheating, so if you don't you are a chump.


Ain't this a great country?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

No, it's not CHEATING, but it IS a waste of money if you don't write well. If you do write well, then it's just expediting the process of accumulation fans.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Good, I'm not the only one that noticed.


Said the girl who started the "let's have one big thread for review bitching so it stays around forever."


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> Said the girl who started the "let's have one big thread for review b*tching so it stays around forever."


That thread was a completely different kind of silly. That was a "weird" silly. This is a "sad" silly.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> That thread was a completely different kind of silly. That was a "weird" silly. This is a "sad" silly.


lol! Okay, I'll give ya that.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Paying to market one's commercial product is in no way cheating at anything. It's called responsible business practices.

I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is. 

Products do not sell themselves. If they did, nobody would "waste" money promoting them - they'd just build the best products and wait for the masses to come. That's not how it works.


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## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

Yikes, I vote for silly on this thread too.


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

Cheating? Heck, most of the time it's not even effective.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> That thread was a completely different kind of silly. That was a "weird" silly. This is a "sad" silly.


I'm with Julie. What in the heck is going on around here lately? KB used to be the place I came for good, solid advice about writing, sales, and all the rest. While I don't want to offed the OP, but a post like this come off as really amateur hour stuff. This used to be a forum where you could get ideas and feedback from some of the most successful self-publishers around.

Posts like this and the frequent "free" train wreck threads just aren't helpful. I want to know what's working for people. I want feedback. I want useful information that's helpful and encouraging. Threads like this are anything but.


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

Vicky Foxx said:


> I'm with Julie. What in the heck is going on around here lately? KB used to be the place I came for good, solid advice about writing, sales, and all the rest. While I don't want to offed the OP, but a post like this come off as really amateur hour stuff. This used to be a forum where you could get ideas and feedback from some of the most successful self-publishers around.
> 
> Posts like this and the frequent "free" train wreck threads just aren't helpful. I want to know what's working for people. I want feedback. I want useful information that's helpful and encouraging. Threads like this are anything but.


No offense taken. It was just an idle pseudo-philosophical thought I threw out there. Kinda wish I hadn't now but we can't take stuff back.

I too come here to learn about writing, publishing and marketing and have learned a great deal, much of which I am putting to use, especially regarding marketing. Sorry if I have pushed some buttons with the thread.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Good, I'm not the only one that noticed.


You're definitely not the only one.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

I didn't get the impression the original post was calling people who market cheaters, or that every time someone lands a BookBub ad, an angel loses its wings. It sounded more like a thought experiment than anything else.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Philip Gibson said:


> No offense taken. It was just an idle pseudo-philosophical thought I threw out there. Kinda wish I hadn't now but we can't take stuff back.
> 
> I too come here to learn about writing, publishing and marketing and have learned a great deal, much of which I am putting to use, especially regarding marketing. Sorry if I have pushed some buttons with the thread.


No, no, no. Don't apologize. This is a message board. You never ever apologize. You llose street cred that way. Just tell everyone to take their smartass comments and shove 'em. Tell the you don't need to put up with their crap. I tell you what, I'll take your side.

Yeah, it's cheating. Not in the overall sense that yoi're doing something wrong, but in the sales threads where everyone posts their numbers, I'd say the people who can afford an aggressive ad campaign have an advantage for bragging rights over those who can't afford one. If you can't afford one, you have every right to look at someone who does and is boasting that their sales are better than yours and say, "Oh, yeah, a few more sales than me. Try doing it on s balogna budget, man. Oh, yeah, you're all big and bad, hiding behind your ads. Come out snd fight like a man. Like a REAL, writer, broke. Not so tough now, are ya?

See? Now we have a philosophical debate.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

No amount of marketing will turn a book into a bestseller. So, no, it's not cheating. It's wishful thinking.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Vicky Foxx said:


> I'm with Julie. What in the heck is going on around here lately? KB used to be the place I came for good, solid advice about writing, sales, and all the rest. While I don't want to offed the OP, but a post like this come off as really amateur hour stuff. This used to be a forum where you could get ideas and feedback from some of the most successful self-publishers around.
> 
> Posts like this and the frequent "free" train wreck threads just aren't helpful. I want to know what's working for people. I want feedback. I want useful information that's helpful and encouraging. Threads like this are anything but.


I find them helpful. I'm still new. I'm getting ready to make some changes and while I'm not diving in and rolling with the rest of the writers here, I am paying attention. I find the discussions, especially the discussions that are old hat to some, are new for me and they're useful. I get that it feels like it's repeating stuff you've said or done time and time again, but to those of us who haven't heard it, we are grateful that folks are patient to explain it _one more time_.

Or so I thought.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Donna White Glaser said:


> My mom had a saying, "Fair isn't everybody getting what they want. Fair isn't everybody getting the same thing. Fair is everyone having the opportunity to work for it."


Your mom was very wise.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

anderson_gray said:


> I find them helpful. I'm still new. I'm getting ready to make some changes and while I'm not diving in and rolling with the rest of the writers here, I am paying attention. I find the discussions, especially the discussions that are old hat to some, are new for me and they're useful. I get that it feels like it's repeating stuff you've said or done time and time again, but to those of us who haven't heard it, we are grateful that folks are patient to explain it _one more time_.
> 
> Or so I thought.


Yes, and this thread is not one of those. It's not repeating stuff we've said or done time and again. That's not what makes it silly.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Marketing will speed up awareness of a book. It is no replacement for a quality book.

All the marketing in the world cannot help a poorly-written, poorly-edited, poorly-formatted title because terrific.

But a well-written, well-edited, well-formatted book CAN be put on a faster track to success by some marketing, followed by great word-of-mouth.

And I think, in general, people call exceptions to this because they hate a certain "bestseller" and overlook what those books/authors did right, even if they aren't great art.

I'm no fan of Stephanie Meyer, but she caught on at the right moment, in terms of timing, and came along to capture the next-gen crowd who flocked to "Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel Romance" thing. Sure, she dumbed it down and destroyed the horror genre in the process and took the fangs out of vampires, we all know the laundry list.

But what did she do well? It's a novel that's talky and filled with teen angst about young girls feeling validated by having a boyfriend and used the vampire as a "bad boy" archetype, etc., etc.... It's a romancy thing that appeals to a lot of teen and preteen girls. Gals who'd likely graduated Harry Potter books and were ready for "the next thing."

So some of the very elements people dislike about Twilight are what made it hit the mark... talky relationship book, bad boy element, feeling validated by having a boyfriend, and true love equaling immortality, loyalty to one's "first love," identifying with teen angst," the idea that a young woman's love can transform a "bad boy" into "the ideal man," true love ends in marriage and childbirth. All that stuff.

Kind of a retro, pre-feminist/post-feminist formula, but one that works on the age group she targeted.


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## AwesomeCovers (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm gonna start cheating soon!

Nicole


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Your mom was very wise.


So she tells me. Frequently.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Advertising and spending money of similar efforts isn't cheating. Advertising is a risky investment, from which you reap rewards (or not).  But it is an investment, and if it were so all fired guaranteed to work, people would borrow to do it.

Selling books is a business, not a public trust like running for office.

However....

It is possible to cheat at your marketing efforts.

Gaming algorithms and doing other things to contravene a system that doesn't belong to you (and is there for the benefit of others) could certainly be considered "cheating."  When people successfully game such a system, they are violating the trust of the customers who thought the system was giving them honest recommendations and such.

Dishonest labeling to get yourself into a popular category (or out of one with a stigma) is cheating.

Buying advertising and hiding the fact that it was purchased is cheating (and against the law -- hence why all those reviewers are now saying "I was given a free copy of this book in return for this review).

Camille


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## moirakatson (Jan 11, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> Yes, yes it is. It's a subversion of the idea that quality and merit are virtues.


I agree that advertising can be used to dazzle and confuse customers, but just because something _can_ be used immorally, doesn't mean the concept itself is immoral. Saying, "Hey, I wrote a book!" doesn't seem immoral or cheater-ish to me - where it gets immoral is either lying about the quality of your product, or taking steps to ensure that other people won't have the opportunity to stand up and say, "Hey, I wrote a book!" too.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Free books? And now marketing? Evidence mounts that independent authors compete with each other.

God Bless the free market, for it shines a very bright light.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Yes, and this thread is not one of those. It's not repeating stuff we've said or done time and again. That's not what makes it silly.


I've still found much of the conversation helpful and interesting.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

The Amazon algorithms aren't really game-able. Not unless you're setting up a thousand fake accounts to buy your book at once or something.

Otherwise, the only way to do well in them is to sell loads of books. Even better if you can sell lots of copies at a high price and people really like the book.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Don't take it too hard, Philip. People get catty when they don't know how to justify a moral judgment they take for granted. Instead of saying they don't know why, they asperse you for asking. All the same, it's hard to show why marketing is cheating because it's hard to see who the victim is or how you identify one in a dynamic situation like the market for books. Plus, it does seem to reduce to absurdity: if marketing is cheating, isn't a nice cover cheating? If nice covers are cheating, and picking nice covers comes down to aesthetics, isn't being better at picking nice covers-an ability, not an act-a form of cheating too?



DRMarvello said:


> No amount of marketing will turn a book into a bestseller. So, no, it's not cheating. It's wishful thinking.


I don't know whether it's that straightforward. Those guys who gamed the NYT bestseller list through strategic buying of their own book manufactured-through a kind of marketing-a big market for their book. I don't think that example proves that you can create a bestseller out of crap. But it makes you wonder how much is the book and how much are the factors surrounding it.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

anderson_gray said:


> I've still found much of the conversation helpful and interesting.


I'm glad, then.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> The Amazon algorithms aren't really game-able. Not unless you're setting up a thousand fake accounts to buy your book at once or something.
> 
> Otherwise, the only way to do well in them is to sell loads of books. Even better if you can sell lots of copies at a high price and people really like the book.


But people always think they can -- especially the non-sales algorithms.

And actually, there are some temporary artificial affects you can have on the relevance algorithm - hits on a page without purchases have a strong effect on "relevance," for instance. When something weird happened to one of my books to make it appear to be the top indie book of the week, Amazon contacted me to congratulate me. I explained that the book in question had had no sales whatsoever that week or even the month before. After a nice discussion, we determined that I had been targeted by an anti-author troll who had made all of her followers curious -- so they all went and checked out my page over a short period and inadvertently popped it into a "Hot Books!" category. It jumped into their promotion engines for a week or so. If the book had been the sort of book that benefits from that kind of promotion, it likely would have had a boost in sales too. However it wasn't that kind of book, so it just quietly sank back down to where it belonged after a week.

If a whole community starts trying to create some harmonic leverage, it will show up in the algorithms. Most of the time the effort won't have the effect that the people involved are trying for -- it won't help who they are trying to help, or harm the person they are trying to harm. But it will affect the algorithm. This is one of the reasons why algorithms are kept secret and why they are constantly being adjusted -- to make such efforts harmless.

Plus, Amazon's multiple algorithms are not the only thing people try to game. Certainly Google expends a great deal of effort constantly blocking the attempts of people to game their algorithms.

Camille


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

So in other words, if you could drive a lot of people to your book who are likely to buy your book, and they do, then it might wind up helping your place in the recommendation system? Such as when I email my readers to let them know I have a new book out?

I just don't see a way to significantly game that. Particularly when systems like these (like Kobo's heat index) are so small compared to the other parts of the overall system.


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

There's a flawed assumption at the root of this - GOOD marketing doesn't have to cost a fortune. Actually, some of the most costly marketing seems to have least ROI. There are a ton of marketing things any person can that are free if you are willing to put in the time. That's how I started. The playing field is never even. Find your advantage and utilize it in the best way possible.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

zoe tate said:


> That happens, sometimes, in internet forums. Especially when your definition of "silly" is "things I disagree with".


No, my definition of silly is silly. This place appears to be in a very weird transitional period as of late, and it doesn't seem to be for the better.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> So in other words, if you could drive a lot of people to your book who are likely to buy your book, and they do, then it might wind up helping your place in the recommendation system? Such as when I email my readers to let them know I have a new book out?
> 
> I just don't see a way to significantly game that. Particularly when systems like these (like Kobo's heat index) are so small compared to the other parts of the overall system.


Even though it is highly unlikely to get a good result, people try it all the time.

And it's still cheating even if you don't get a good result.

But let's narrow this down to the two circumstances where it could work:

First, there's your example: if you are legitimately driving appropriate traffic to your book page, that's not cheating. That's exactly what the algorithm is for. It's supposed to recognize when there is some buzz.

The other example is my own: What if what happened to me was intentional? Let's say that, instead of me being a non-romance writer with a weird literary book that it's easy for readers to see is _not romance_, that I was a mediocre romance writer. Let's say that nobody hates my books, but nobody loves them either. They cannot get buzz at all on their own.

And let's say that I knew that internet flame wars on this particular group would drive a lot of curiosity traffic to my book.

So I go to this notorious forum and I do my best to pick an entertaining fight with the queen bee. All her minions go after me, and I just spend a whole weekend playing games with them. And the whole community goes to look at my book, not to buy it, but because they are mad and hope to find dozens of mistakes in my sample that they can use against me.

In the meantime, my book (which doesn't have any major mistakes, but also has nothing particularly great about it) has just registered on the algorithm as "REALLY hot among romance readers!" Suddenly Amazon is placing it on all their internal promotion spots relating to romance. It's getting on the front page of various stores.

(NOTE: this is exactly what happened to my book, but in my case it was not a romance, and obviously so, so nobody was fooled into trying it.)

However, if the book had been a mediocre romance -- properly edited, with no elements to drive anyone away, but also nothing exciting about it -- it would certainly have gained sales from that promotion.

It isn't just exposure -- it isn't presented to them just as a "new book" of unknown quality. It was being presented to them as the hottest romance book of the week. Lots of buzz. Lots of people talking about it. There are a lot of people who take that as a seal of approval. So as long as the book is in the ballpark, they'll buy it.

And once they buy it, it gets on other algorithms, where more people see indications that it is better than it is.

This scenario is highly unlikely. You can't count on a flame war getting the right kind of attention, or passing a threshold of interest. You're more likely to get retaliatory behavior, especially these days. And if you succeed, the reviews may well catch up with you. It won't last.

But people try.

Does it matter? No. Amazon keeps a close eye on it's algorithms and if there is enough bad behavior they change them.

But the question was whether marketing can be considered cheating. And my contention is that if you are trying to trick people, it's cheating. If you're not trying to trick people, it isn't.

Camille


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## Catherine Lea (Jul 16, 2013)

We keep saying that life should be fair. It isn't. Live with that fact. Plan for it.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> But the question was whether marketing can be considered cheating. And my contention is that if you are trying to trick people, it's cheating. If you're not trying to trick people, it isn't.


Ahh. We can totally agree on that point. I don't think we're that far off in general, actually. I'm sure people are trying all kinds of stuff every day. It just seems difficult to game Amazon because their metrics are gonna be easier for the number-dudes to decipher (e.g., a book is responding to its visibility, or it isn't). It seems like it would be tougher for a search engine to know exactly how to best define "relevancy." So if their data and assumptions are fuzzier, it should be a little easier to fool.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Vicky Foxx said:


> I'm with Julie. What in the heck is going on around here lately? KB used to be the place I came for good, solid advice about writing, sales, and all the rest. While I don't want to offed the OP, but a post like this come off as really amateur hour stuff. This used to be a forum where you could get ideas and feedback from some of the most successful self-publishers around.
> 
> Posts like this and the frequent "free" train wreck threads just aren't helpful. I want to know what's working for people. I want feedback. I want useful information that's helpful and encouraging. Threads like this are anything but.


I agree KB has taken a crazy turn the last couple of weeks, but it happens. I remember Elle saying something a week or so ago that we were having an influx of new members from somewhere else. She didn't say where, but I vote be kind to newbies and it will all balance out in the end.


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## death wizard (Jan 31, 2014)

This thread seems legit to me, but as you can see (by my number of posts) I'm a newbie, so I'm joining the party at about the time everyone else is staggering out the front door and headed home (hopefully with a designated driver). I've spent hundreds of hours marketing my books in all kinds of manners (online, book tours, personal appearances, festivals), and the results have been a mixed bag at best. I understand that -- for the most part -- you have to write great books for them to sell. But what I don't get is how some books/authors take off while others do not. It's as if there's some hidden secret that a few have discovered and the rest have not. And it doesn't necessarily seem to correspond with how many hours you put in or even whom your publisher is or if you're self-published. I've spoken to dozens of authors (of varying degrees of success) about this and remain perplexed. I know as a newbie to this site that I'm stating the obvious with these comments, but there remains a part of me that wonders just what the "secret" to marketing is.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

The secret, ultimately, is writing a book/series that's going to survive Amazon Thunderdome. Good luck determining what that is.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Vicky Foxx said:


> I'm with Julie. What in the heck is going on around here lately? KB used to be the place I came for good, solid advice about writing, sales, and all the rest. While I don't want to offed the OP, but a post like this come off as really amateur hour stuff. This used to be a forum where you could get ideas and feedback from some of the most successful self-publishers around.
> 
> Posts like this and the frequent "free" train wreck threads just aren't helpful. I want to know what's working for people. I want feedback. I want useful information that's helpful and encouraging. Threads like this are anything but.


I used to post every marketing campaign I did (with numbers), but I stopped because there are a few here who like to compare every genre to romance, and to the top ten outliers who post here. 
My results were for the midlisters so they could see what genres could do if they weren't in the top ten of genres.

The last time this happened, (on a campaign where I made my money back and more) I said I would stop publicly posting results, and I have. I received several private emails from other mid listers who saw what happened to me, and told me they were stopping too. They didn't want to be "targeted" the way I was.

When I find new sources that work, I won't be sharing here anymore. It just isn't worth the pettiness of a few. When you get twenty to the thirty of us who used to share, not sharing anymore, the public useful information does go down, but that's what happens when a place like this gets negative nellies.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm not quite sure if I've ever seen a stranger theory postulated on these boards...



LisaGraceBooks said:


> When I find new sources that work, I won't be sharing here anymore. It just isn't worth the pettiness of a few. When you get twenty to the thirty of us who used to share, not sharing anymore, the public useful information does go down, but that's what happens when a place like this gets negative nellies.


I hate posting anything about marketing or even discussing it in private with people anymore. I usually tell them that I can't advise because I won't share any of the responsibility if they spent money on something I said was good and they lost on it. Or I tell them that I'm no good at it, which is partially true; I don't know exactly what aspect of what I'm doing is working or if any single element is working better than any other. I just do what I do.

And they've asked because I make a full-time income writing. Unfortunately, I don't know how to replicate that in another person, so I won't bother trying. I know what I did, but the story is rather boring and involves a lot of gritty work.


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## Book Master (May 3, 2013)

There is a "hidden secret" that those select few bestselling authors carry with them where the yellow brick road takes them. It is called "Perma-free" and it is not so secret here anymore. Write a couple of series in an interesting genre and make the first book free. Over time, those sales will begin to kick in tremendously.

Is marketing tantamount to cheating?

Not at all! Everyone participating in the business has the same opportunities to promote and market material to readers in some shape, form or fashion. It is up to each individual as to what approach and techniques that they incorporate to sell. If an author has plenty of money to invest for advertising, it doesn't mean that they will prosper from that alone. There is much more to it than spending money alone. Many places are online now that you can buy ad space for that will do nothing for you in return.

The best marketing strategy going today is called "go to work, treat it like a job or business, if this won't work, we will try that, keep working your rear off at it. stay determined and don't give up, build a brand, get your name and books out on the web world, guest blog, write articles about your genre,write, rinse and repeat on ebook publishing, don't waste valuable writing time loafing on twitter or facebook, study what worked, continue studying what might work and look for something outside the box that others haven't found to help find those readers."

Oh yes, Find somewhere and the time for restful sleep from doing all of the above!^^^^^^^^^and there is more but I'm a whipped poochie from this already!

BM


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I used to post every marketing campaign I did (with numbers), but I stopped because there are a few here who like to compare every genre to romance, and to the top ten outliers who post here.
> My results were for the midlisters so they could see what genres could do if they weren't in the top ten of genres.
> 
> The last time this happened, (on a campaign where I made my money back and more) I said I would stop publicly posting results, and I have. I received several private emails from other mid listers who saw what happened to me, and told me they were stopping too. They didn't want to be "targeted" the way I was.
> ...


This is what I was getting at without coming right out and saying it. This place has changed so friggen much in the last six months and it's a shame.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Patrick Szabo said:


> This is what I was getting at without coming right out and saying it. This place has changed so friggen much in the last six months and it's a shame.


I'm going to stop posting as often and see if the luster comes back.

I'm pretty sure this is all my fault.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

Patrick Szabo said:


> This is what I was getting at without coming right out and saying it. This place has changed so friggen much in the last six months and it's a shame.


I've been following the KBoards for awhile, but in lurk mode. So I'm a newbie with the participation. However, so far, I love it here.

I'm sorry your experience has turned sour.

Jolie


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I used to post every marketing campaign I did (with numbers), but I stopped because there are a few here who like to compare every genre to romance, and to the top ten outliers who post here.
> My results were for the midlisters so they could see what genres could do if they weren't in the top ten of genres.
> 
> The last time this happened, (on a campaign where I made my money back and more) I said I would stop publicly posting results, and I have. I received several private emails from other mid listers who saw what happened to me, and told me they were stopping too. They didn't want to be "targeted" the way I was.
> ...


Oh I'm so sorry to hear that. I really am. I've gone indie this year, partly because of the encouraging posts and marketing guides I've gotten from all of your KBoarders, whether pros or cons, good or bad, lively discussions or not. I mean if indie authors can't discuss things without getting backlashed or firebombed on KB/WC, where do they go, really? Tell me if there is another board like the Writer's Cafe. No. I think Harvey and company have done a great job and a great service to the self-publishing community.

I'm also in other indie discussion boards but there is nothing like WC if you want to see real life experiences on what works and what doesn't. I mean all these petty bickerings really have no place in adult level discussions, right? We could all be civil about disagreements. It's the nature of indie authors to be individualistic. If you want to all fit into a box, that's called traditional publishing. We're all coloring outside the box, no?

So I'm saddened to read that successful indies might be holding back information. For every naysayer and flamethrower, please know that there are many more of us who are very appreciative. It's too bad that sometimes a few loud noisemakers ruin the party for everyone else.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm going to stop posting as often and see if the luster comes back.
> 
> I'm pretty sure this is all my fault.


All roads lead to Hugh. I challenge you to a rap battle.



Joliedupre said:


> I've been following the KBoards for awhile, but in lurk mode. So I'm a newbie with the participation. However, so far, I love it here.
> 
> I'm sorry your experience has turned sour.
> 
> Jolie


I still like it here, it hasn't really soured. It's just really different now.


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## death wizard (Jan 31, 2014)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> The secret, ultimately, is writing a book/series that's going to survive Amazon Thunderdome. Good luck determining what that is.


See! Then I don't know the secret.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

Patrick Szabo said:


> I still like it here, it hasn't really soured. It's just really different now.


I've done an incredible amount of research on self-publishing. So much of the information posted here I already know. However, sometimes a successful indie author will post information I don't know, and that's why I love KBoards. Also, I love "hanging out" with other indie authors.

Love you, guys and gals!!


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## Rachael M (Feb 1, 2014)

Marketing is not cheating, in fact for indie author's it's now as important as writing the book itself. The most important question to ask about spending time in marketing your book is to ask, "what is the main reason I'm doing this?" Some might think this is obvious: to help sell your book. Yet several recent author surveys show that the main reason is actually "to be recognised". If this is the case, then its important to find ways to measure this. Some examples:
-how many reviews you have for your book on sites liek Amazon
- how many followers you have on your social media sites
- how many times your book is mentioned on the web

There are other measures, but I just wanted to make the point that marketing is a good thing, but also consider ways to measure your marketing efforts because it can take a lot of your time.


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

death wizard said:


> This thread seems legit to me, but as you can see (by my number of posts) I'm a newbie, so I'm joining the party at about the time everyone else is staggering out the front door and headed home (hopefully with a designated driver). I've spent hundreds of hours marketing my books in all kinds of manners (online, book tours, personal appearances, festivals), and the results have been a mixed bag at best. I understand that -- for the most part -- you have to write great books for them to sell. But *what I don't get is how some books/authors take off while others do not. It's as if there's some hidden secret that a few have discovered *and the rest have not. And it doesn't necessarily seem to correspond with how many hours you put in or even whom your publisher is or if you're self-published. I've spoken to dozens of authors (of varying degrees of success) about this and remain perplexed. I know as a newbie to this site that I'm stating the obvious with these comments, but there remains a part of me that wonders just what the "secret" to marketing is.


The secret is writing books that people want to read - and if you can figure out which books those are, definitely tell the rest of us! 

I have some books that sell better than others - any author who has written more than a couple does. Even the Great Hughness Himself has books that sell better/worse (although I'll take his "worse" on any day!). You can't tell what will resonate with readers until you put it out there (and yes, market; no, it's not "cheating").


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## death wizard (Jan 31, 2014)

Book Master said:


> There is a "hidden secret" that those select few bestselling authors carry with them where the yellow brick road takes them. It is called "Perma-free" and it is not so secret here anymore. Write a couple of series in an interesting genre and make the first book free. Over time, those sales will begin to kick in tremendously.
> 
> Is marketing tantamount to cheating?
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this!


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

Rachael M said:


> Marketing is not cheating, in fact for indie author's it's now as important as writing the book itself. The most important question to ask about spending time in marketing your book is to ask, "what is the main reason I'm doing this?" Some might think this is obvious: to help sell your book. Yet several recent author surveys show that the main reason is actually "to be recognised". If this is the case, then its important to find ways to measure this. Some examples:
> -how many reviews you have for your book on sites liek Amazon
> - how many followers you have on your social media sites
> -* how many times your book is mentioned on the web*
> ...


How exactly do you measure that? BTW, I'm surprised that the main reason people are marketing is "to be recognised" - what author surveys show that? Reviews matter because they're social proof and raise sales. Followers on social media means almost nothing. Mentions on the web? Having a pervasive web presence can help bring people to your site or make it more likely they'll stumble across your book, but most (as in waaay more than half) of sales aren't coming from random google searches on your book name. They come from people who read/recommend/review (word of mouth) and algorithms at retailers. Marketing aimed at increasing those things is marketing that works.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Philip Gibson said:


> Is aggressive, well-funded marketing tantamount to cheating?


Cheating is using resources that do not by rights belong to you. If you have the money to fund aggressive, expensive marketing, how on earth could that ever be considered cheating? Life's not fair. Some people have more money than others. Some people are more beautiful. Some people are more charismatic. Some people are better writers and can write faster than others. Nobody with a fairly obtained resource is cheating at anything. Life would be rather unexciting if we were all on a totally level playing field.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

It can't amount to tantamount!

(There. I heard that line somewhere and have always wanted to use it!)


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I've been resisting reading this thread, but now I have and it's depressed me.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I used to post every marketing campaign I did (with numbers), but I stopped because there are a few here who like to compare every genre to romance, and to the top ten outliers who post here.
> My results were for the midlisters so they could see what genres could do if they weren't in the top ten of genres.
> 
> The last time this happened, (on a campaign where I made my money back and more) I said I would stop publicly posting results, and I have. I received several private emails from other mid listers who saw what happened to me, and told me they were stopping too. They didn't want to be "targeted" the way I was.
> ...


I just went back and read that thread (skimmed it, really.) What a bummer that it all turned out that way. And we are losing an invaluable resource, when we become so close-minded about The Way Things Are Done that we shut down those who are trying to share information with all of us as a community. THE greatest resource we have is one another's knowledge and experience, freely shared. All the contrariness and pointlessly, purposefully divisive behavior, not to mention all the putting down of others because they're not "successful enough" (whatever that's supposed to mean) is destroying the primary advantage indies have.

Way to go, guys.



H.M. Ward said:


> There's a flawed assumption at the root of this - GOOD marketing doesn't have to cost a fortune. Actually, some of the most costly marketing seems to have least ROI. There are a ton of marketing things any person can that are free if you are willing to put in the time. That's how I started. The playing field is never even. Find your advantage and utilize it in the best way possible.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm one of the first to try new marketing avenues. I tried another this month. It used to be when you spent money, and posted results, you'd get "Thanks for sharing" no matter what the short term results were. If it turned out not to be what people hoped for you'd get, "I'm sorry it didn't work, but thanks for posting. Now I can decide if I want to take the risk."

The last few times, that's not what happened. Instead, you'd get people piling on. What's weird is you'd think people would understand: 
1) You took a risk with your money and or time, and are now out there sharing results, embarassing or not. (What happened to the empathy we used to have here?)
2) You didn't have to share.

3) Not all results should/can be compared to the outliers who tend to write in more popular genres. There is nothing wrong with growing a reader base slow and steady.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> I'm not quite sure if I've ever seen a stranger theory postulated on these boards...
> 
> I hate posting anything about marketing or even discussing it in private with people anymore. I usually tell them that I can't advise because I won't share any of the responsibility if they spent money on something I said was good and they lost on it. Or I tell them that I'm no good at it, which is partially true; I don't know exactly what aspect of what I'm doing is working or if any single element is working better than any other. I just do what I do.
> 
> And they've asked because I make a full-time income writing. Unfortunately, I don't know how to replicate that in another person, so I won't bother trying. I know what I did, but the story is rather boring and involves a lot of gritty work.


You're very smart to know this!

Many people who are selling well might not know why. Timing and luck are major factors. Something like a simple ebook formatting choice can make a huge difference, and you'd never know.

I track everything I try, and keep statistics. I'm now back to re-trying various things I've written off in the past, but trying them with a twist.

The best thing to do is to drop things that aren't working, to create a vacuum for good. It's the same for life and relationships.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I'm one of the first to try new marketing avenues. I tried another this month. It used to be when you spent money, and posted results, you'd get "Thanks for sharing" no matter what the short term results were. If it turned out not to be what people hoped for you'd get, "I'm sorry it didn't work, but thanks for posting. Now I can decide if I want to take the risk."
> 
> The last few times, that's not what happened. Instead, you'd get people piling on. What's weird is you'd think people would understand:
> 1) You took a risk with your money and or time, and are now out there sharing results, embarassing or not. (What happened to the empathy we used to have here?)
> ...


Can I shoot you an email once in a while and exchange news about new stuff we've both tried? I still find information-sharing valuable, even if other people don't seem to. :/


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I learned a lot here about marketing in the several years that I spent lurking before I finally published my first two books. I'm very grateful to those who shared what did and didn't work, and I definitely benefited from that information. I've been pretty transparent as well about sharing what has worked for me, because I wanted to try and help as well.

But, I am also less inclined to continue to share as I've noticed a shift here as well. It seems like there is either a lack of interest in or bias against marketing…not sure which, but it does make me hesitate to share.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> Can I shoot you an email once in a while and exchange news about new stuff we've both tried? I still find information-sharing valuable, even if other people don't seem to. :/


Absolutely. 



PamelaKelley said:


> But, I am also less inclined to continue to share as I've noticed a shift here as well. It seems like there is either a lack of interest in or bias against marketingnot sure which, but it does make me hesitate to share.


Several of us have. I still come here for coffee breaks while writing, but I've started hanging out in a private group where I can share and not get blasted. I work with what little time I have between writing and editing to discover free and paid techniques I can use to reach readers. I understand ebooks and audio are in their infancy, and what worked yesterday, may not work tomorrow.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> But, I am also less inclined to continue to share as I've noticed a shift here as well. It seems like there is either a lack of interest in or bias against marketing&#8230;not sure which, but it does make me hesitate to share.


I have seen a shift, but it's not confined to KB. I suspect there is a general recognition the independent market segment has taken a significant market share, is here to stay, produces what consumers want, and is a real and competitive threat to other segments.

When people see these things, they react. That doesn't mean it is coordinated, just that people observe the same thing.

Consider the recent exchange between Konrath and the CEO of a publishing company. That was followed by another exchange with the CEO of a major literary agency. Both were advocating for traditional publishing. I have to admire them for coming straight into the independent strongholds. I had never seen people at that level directly engage with independents.

Then we had Wendig's call for independents to police the segment because it didn't measure up to traditional publishing.

We also see those who advocate we treat literature in the marketplace in a manner different from how we treat zillions of other products. They see Amazon slipping away as a venue to distribute what they consider quality books that rise or fall on literary merit.

And what is at the root of it all? Indepoent authors have become strong and active competitors. They are going after consumer dollars. That's not the model many publishers, agents, and artists want. So they act in their self-interest and push back.

These are signs of success.

God Bless the free market, for it is time to let the games begin....


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Several of us have. I still come here for coffee breaks while writing, *but I've started hanging out in a private group where I can share and not get blasted.* I work with what little time I have between writing and editing to discover free and paid techniques I can use to reach readers. I understand ebooks and audio are in their infancy, and what worked yesterday, may not work tomorrow.


As someone who has come here and learned SO MUCH from various people, that right there is what I was afraid was going to happen with this shift. The vets get tired of the crap and garbage of the non-vets (and let's face it, there is quite a bit of a know-it-all attitude amongst some of the non-vets that grates) and bolt for safer harbors. I don't think I need to point out which members have or are in the process of sailing away (or maybe they're just really really busy, which is a possibility consider their successes).

Looks like the Golden Age of the WC is sliding into a Silver Age.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Bummer.


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## StephenEngland (Nov 2, 2011)

To the OP: do you think that bookselling is a hobby? Because for most of us, it's a business.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

For what  its worth.  Chuck Wendig's Blackbirds is on sale for $1.99 today.
And marketing is almost never cheating.  Only if you are marketing/selling certain acts behind your spouse's back.


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## geekgrrl (Oct 14, 2013)

I've been a long time lurker, only recently started posting. I'm very sad to hear that so many of the regular and most valuable contributors are/might be leaving. I have found your wisdom invaluable not to mention generous. I'd hate to see WC go down the tubes, but I understand the need to move on. Sometimes we outgrow things. So before you go, I would like to say, Thank You.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Book Master (May 3, 2013)

Posted by: death wizard 




Insert Quote


Quote from: Book Master on Today at 12:15:20 AM

There is a "hidden secret" that those select few bestselling authors carry with them where the yellow brick road takes them. It is called "Perma-free" and it is not so secret here anymore. Write a couple of series in an interesting genre and make the first book free. Over time, those sales will begin to kick in tremendously.

Is marketing tantamount to cheating?

Not at all! Everyone participating in the business has the same opportunities to promote and market material to readers in some shape, form or fashion. It is up to each individual as to what approach and techniques that they incorporate to sell. If an author has plenty of money to invest for advertising, it doesn't mean that they will prosper from that alone. There is much more to it than spending money alone. Many places are online now that you can buy ad space for that will do nothing for you in return.


The best marketing strategy going today is called "go to work, treat it like a job or business, if this won't work, we will try that, keep working your rear off at it. stay determined and don't give up, build a brand, get your name and books out on the web world, guest blog, write articles about your genre,write, rinse and repeat on ebook publishing, don't waste valuable writing time loafing on twitter or facebook, study what worked, continue studying what might work and look for something outside the box that others haven't found to help find those readers."

Oh yes, Find somewhere and the time for restful sleep from doing all of the above!^^^^^^^^^and there is more but I'm a whipped poochie from this already!

BM




Thanks for posting this! 

...

You're most welcome Sir!

Dropping in here, the handwriting is on the walls! "People are discouraged here for some reason." What happen since the beginning of 2014 that wasn't in place during 2013? Have book sales fallen off the cliff during the first month of this new year? Is it the "Tax Season Flu" that is bothering you guys? Maybe it was the influx of the heavy hitters dropping their book prices to hammer the Indie Author Revolution into oblivion.

Well, there is hope out there you know. We have eleven more months left in this year to change things back around to improve attitudes and sales of those books. Sure, not every month is a breadbasket full of book sales but in business you learn to weather the storm. Another problem was this past January's extreme cold weather over America. Anyone not affected by it financially must be an Eskimo. Faced with already enough bills to pay, toss in double amounts of utility bills and peeps have to take action by cutting out the extras so that can tie into slower book sales during February and possibly March.

There are always options on the table to counteract problems that arise. It is how you handle it from a business standpoint that matters. Ask anyone out there in the business world if they never faced any problems financially and most will say many times they have weathered a crisis. Things will bounce back because they always have a way of doing so.

Yes it can be discouraging but never let it get you down. One of my new things this year was to let go of freelance work and devote 100 percent into publishing but I changed directions back on the ninth of January, deciding to continue doing what makes my living. I had some persuasion along the way too from clients emailing me that they need me. So, you go where the money takes you. I was in the process of finishing another new book but waiting for sales from books takes much more time than those nifty checks from freelancing.

I plan to continue this side of the fence also but money always comes first. It would be great to spend all of my time writing to self publish but I have a lot going on away from the desk as well. There is not always enough time in the days for all the things that come up that have to be addressed. And so it goes! Stay upbeat, think positive and be proud of your neighbor if they are having a great month of book sales. 

Remember, Marketing is a Game Plan and in no way Cheating!

BM


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

M. Prawnypants said:


> You're very smart to know this!
> 
> Many people who are selling well might not know why. Timing and luck are major factors. Something like a simple ebook formatting choice can make a huge difference, and you'd never know.
> 
> ...


Yes, experimentation is very important. After a while, you can gauge the things that are or are not working. And that's really the only thing you can do; experiment, learn, apply, persevere.


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Blue Kincaid said:


> Since when is life fair? Why would anyone want or expect it to be? Fair only leads to mediocrity and I want more from my life (and my work) than a Participant ribbon.


I SEE YOU. *waves*


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> I didn't get the impression the original post was calling people who market cheaters, or that every time someone lands a BookBub ad, an angel loses its wings. It sounded more like a thought experiment than anything else.


Thanks for that.

Yes, that's exactly what my original post was -- a thought experiment. An experiment that completely failed to prove its highly-speculative hypothesis. However, the many responses did prove, to me at least, that marketing is NOT tantamount to cheating.

I'm only sorry that posting my silly thought experiment caused so much annoyance to so many.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I've been thinking about this, because even though I was surprised by what the OP said -- that anybody would think that marketing is "cheating" because it vaults you ahead of your fellow writers -- I couldn't help but wonder if maybe something _I_ said prompted the idea.

(I realize that this is pure monomania on my part.)

I have said things against writers trying to boost themselves above the herd artificially. Which, yeah, I can see that that might sound like I'm saying that writers should wait in line and that if they try to jump the line, it hurts their fellow writers.

But when I've said that, I was talking about something else.

There is no line. The Writing Life is not a grocery store where we have to wait patiently for the person in front of us to count out pennies to pay for his groceries, and then change his mind and write a check and then not have the ID the clerk needs to accept it, and then go back to paying in pennies. In the writing life, dawdlers are not in your way. You walk right on by them and don't worry about it.

When I talk about writers trying to vault themselves up or grab attention via artificial means, I'm actually thinking about bright colors and billboards -- and how attempts to force attention always become less and less effective the more they are used.

Old school marketers used bright color and loud sounds and bright lights to get attention in a crowded store. And they made their adds bigger, and taller and louder. And that works as long as the rest of the crowd is not doing the same thing. If you see a billboard in a field, you might notice it. But if you see a dozen billboards in the same field, all stacked up, each higher than the one before it, you can't see any one of them individually.

And in the end, the drivers on the highway not only don't notice the billboards any more, but they can't see the signs that give them information they actually need, or the landscape that they would like to see. (Which is what many highways were like when I was young.)

So in the end two things happen: one is that the drivers along the highway stop seeing the signs at all. AND... they lobby the government to restrict the signs so they don't have to deal with it.

On the internet, we filter out things we've seen too much of. Things we used to seek out suddenly become the things we unconsciously ignore -- and I'm not just talking about spam and advertising. I'm talking about free prices, or hot book sites. "Likes," reviews. We still respond some, but we're saturated and suddenly we have a resistance to it. It's everywhere, so we're bored with it, if not downright sick of it.

In the meantime Amazon and Google and other sites that originally enabled the attention-getting methods will put a throttle on the effectiveness of some methods. Sometimes they'll ban them altogether. Google in particular is known for their "sandbox" where they confine sites that have used far too aggressive SEO techniques. Twitter will kick users out if they play too many aggressive follow and unfollow techniques.

So sometimes when we talk about marketing it does sound like we're talking about cheating... but really we're just saying that there is a dialectic at work. Anything highly successful will draw too many other people to it, and soon the audience will be numb to it and the system will deaden the effect.

Camille


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Philip Gibson said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Yes, that's exactly what my original post was -- a thought experiment. An experiment that completely failed to prove its highly-speculative hypothesis. However, the many responses did prove, to me at least, that marketing is NOT tantamount to cheating.
> 
> I'm only sorry that posting my silly thought experiment caused so much annoyance to so many.


Philip, I admit that I was put off by the original post, because I believe that marketing is just a necessary part of doing business (any business, not just publishing).

However, after thinking about it, I decided that it's good to take a fresh look at things we take for granted. Your topic generated many interesting comments.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Another reason I don't see marketing as cheating is because I don't see authors as in "competition" with each other.

Some people say everyone's competing for discoverability, but I think there is a lot (A LOT) (I MEAN, SO MUCH) more to be gained by dropping this mindset and realizing that cooperation is so much more valuable to every writer than competition. Just because someone discovers and loves someone else's book doesn't mean they can't also discover and love yours. I mean, they might buy someone else's book one month, but through cross-promo with that same author, they can pick up yours next month. 

It does make me sad that the spirit of collaboration and collegiality here seems to be slipping away, and that some authors that were so willing to share no longer feel like they can -- or should. Sometimes, on the internet especially, negativity can be contagious. I don' t know how to turn the tide, but I hope that it does turn. We AREN'T in competition. Not really. Yes, everyone's running their own little business, but there's no cap to growth here, IMO. Readers are infinite. 

There's so much more to be gained by working together. 

p.s. to the OP -- I also took this as a thought experiment, if one with an obvious answer, and I thought the language in your post made that clear.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I can't even read this thread. All I can think is, "Why is this even a thing?"


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## death wizard (Jan 31, 2014)

To me, it's not about cheating at all. It's about finding that gold nugget amid the ordinary stones. So much of marketing is overly time-consuming and virtually worthless, but then you can strike it rich in the oddest places. I just wish I knew where more of those places are hidden.


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## Connie Chastain (Jun 25, 2011)

Promotion is marketing, right? And you know what P.T. Barnum said.  No...i don't mean what he said about suckers. He said, "Without promotion, something terrible happens. Nothing."


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Connie Chastain said:


> Promotion is marketing, right? And you know what P.T. Barnum said. No...i don't mean what he said about suckers. He said, "Without promotion, something terrible happens. Nothing."


I took an Entrepreneurship course in San Diego many years ago. The instructor, an amazing character named Pete Salmon, reminded us regularly that, "Nothing happens until somebody sells something." I view his remark as the corollary to P.T. Barnum's.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

I just found an example of an e-book author really cheating with her marketing on twitter. She made a tweet stating that "The official [name of a popular TV show] twitter account just followed me and promo'd my book directly to about half a million on a very active night!"

I found that hard to believe, especially since this is the author's first book. I read the book (yes, I bought it) and was not impressed. It looked like derivative fan fiction and was not very well done, so I could not understand why the real TV show would have promoted it. So I checked the twitter account name she claimed was the official account of the TV show, and saw that the account that recommended her book is actually a fansite for the TV show, not the real official account.

(To the best of my knowledge, the author in question is not a member of this forum.)


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2014)

Bluebonnet said:


> I just found an example of an e-book author really cheating with her marketing on twitter. She made a tweet stating that "The official [name of a popular TV show] twitter account just followed me and promo'd my book directly to about half a million on a very active night!"
> 
> I found that hard to believe, especially since this is the author's first book. I read the book (yes, I bought it) and was not impressed. It looked like derivative fan fiction and was not very well done, so I could not understand why the real TV show would have promoted it. So I checked the twitter account name she claimed was the official account of the TV show, and saw that the account that recommended her book is actually a fansite for the TV show, not the real official account.
> 
> (To the best of my knowledge, the author in question is not a member of this forum.)


Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice. Considering how unsavvy the majority of people are about the internet, the author probably DID this it was the official site!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice. Considering how unsavvy the majority of people are about the internet, the author probably DID this it was the official site!


Also, a lot of fandoms consider fansites more "legit" than company sites. (The company sites are run by flacks and corporations, after all.)

But I think this is an example of why many readers consider marketing to be illegitimate (if not actually "cheating"): so much of it is misleading, whether intentionally or not.

Camille


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Cheating means breaking some rule or violating some accepted standard. What rule or standard does marketing violate?


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