# Swearing in Young Adult books



## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

I wanted to get some readers opinions on swearing in Young Adult books. It seems to me that there are no restrictions on it, and don't really feel as though there should be. 
I've read quite a few YA books from major publishers which have the F word in, none of which have any content warnings- Iron King and Bleeding Violent spring to mind but I know there are others.
I personally don't feel as though YA books should be censored, for these reasons-
1. Teenagers swear. Most teen aged characters in YA would also swear. Doesn't mean they need to all the time, but it would be out of character for _some of these_ characters to never swear in certain situations.
2. People argue against darker content in YA, because even though Young Adult is generally marketed for 12-18 year olds it doesn't mean these are the only readers, lots of much younger kids read up. But so what? I was reading *adult* category books from age 10 up (there weren't particularly any YA books back then, not like there are now), and also reading down to middle grade after I was 18. I know lots of kids who read up (into YA and Adult), so restricting language in YA only isn't going to keep them from seeing swear words in books because they're just as likely to be reading Adult books too.

But then, my parents never censored my reading (or tv, movie, gaming etc) content growing up, so maybe I've got a fairly liberal view of it all? Do others think there should be at least content warnings, like there are on computer games, so that parents can decide what their kids see in books? Is there anyone here actually from the 12-18 age ranges that has an opinion?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Selina Fenech said:


> Do others think there should be at least content warnings, like there are on computer games, so that parents can decide what their kids see in books?


Ideally a parent should also read any book they are letting their child read. . .so they'll know if there's anything problematic _for their child_. Though that's probably not very practical given the average kid probably has more time to sit and read than mom and dad.  I did do a pretty good job of doing this with my son until he got to be 15 or 16 by which time I had a good enough idea of what he was interested in that I didn't need to read every book. It also enabled us to have some good conversations about what we each did and didn't like about various books. And we still recommend books to each other -- he's 28.

I think the important thing is to recognize that not every child is the same. And not every family is the same.

I might be o.k. with the occasional 'naughty' word in a book for my child. . . .but you might not be o.k. with it for your child. And we might define 'occasional' and 'naughty' differently! 

One 13 year old might be able to handle a severe injury or death, but a different 13 year old might not.

Kids will react differently to 'sexual situations' as well.

So parents need to know their children, and also have an idea of what they're reading.

That being the case, it is helpful for parents to have some resource to give them an idea of what's contained in the books their kids are wanting to read so they'll know whether it's something they can just let 'em read, or that they should read along with. . . .


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## arshield (Nov 17, 2008)

I am with Ann. But in general, if there is not a good reason for swearing, why put it in?  It will offend some and I have never said, "You know what I really miss in this book, swearing."


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## kkay5 (Feb 1, 2010)

I hate swearing so I would love it if there was no swearing in Young Adult books.  It would make my job easier.  And I would love it if books had content warnings.  I censor what my kids read.  If there is a lot of swearing in the book, I won't let my kids read it.  Just because they have to hear all those words at school, doesn't mean they have to read it too.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

There are exceptions, but I find that interesting people generally have more creative ways of expressing themselves than swearing. Yes, a lot of young people swear, but not every random person would be interesting to read about.


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## Erica Sloane (May 11, 2011)

My nephew caught on to cursing when he was about eight. The "minor" curse words, that is. He was fascinated by the words. The more his parents told him to stop, the more he liked doing it.

Then they tried something new. They joked about the words, and they stopped telling him not to say them. He lost interest in them.

He's twelve now and they haven't heard him utter a curse word in about four years. They've had no reports of cursing from his teachers or friends' parents.

It's over.

If you put five jars on the kitchen counter and tell a kid, "You can open these four jars, but DO NOT TOUCH THE FIFTH ONE!" the kid will always, always, always be scheming to open the fifth one.

Remove the taboo and the interest goes away. By censoring and telling someone that something is forbidden, bad, dirty, naughty, etc., all you're accomplishing is creating more interest in it.

I personally don't like hearing them used in excess. Intelligent people can express themselves without it. But sometimes they serve a purpose, just like any other word.

As for parental warnings, I think it's fine if it's something the publisher does voluntarily. But mandated...absolutely not.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

Interesting topic. Personally, swearing in books for YA doesn't bother me. There's swearing in High School. More in some than others. The only time swearing will bother me is if the MC swears all the time. In their dialogue, in their thoughts. Not because of the words themselves, I just lose interest. Swearing all the time is like screaming all the time IMO.


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## hakimast (Jul 23, 2011)

Not that big of a deal if the children are going to use them someday too.


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## Writtled (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm with you, Selina. I think cursing is more than fine, as long as it fits the story. If it looks like the author just cussed to be edgy...it fails, and I don't like it. But if the type of character saying it makes sense or the situation would bring such a reaction, I feel like it would be less authentic if they weren't to cuss in some form. I definitely don't think there should be censorship, and it all depends on the YA story being told. Good question


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## amandamay83 (Apr 11, 2011)

I agree with many of the others:  in context, swearing is fine.  Throwing it in every-other-word  is definitely not necessary, but let's be realisitic:  if you drop a hammer on your toe, you're probably not going to say, "Oh, drat!"  

And this is strictly personal opinion, but I couldn't disagree more with the idea of censoring your child's reading.  Like Erica said:  as soon as you tell a kid he can't have something, you just make it that much more desireable.  It makes me think of a conversation my mom told me about.  She's a librarian, and at some conference was telling someone how I read V.C. Andrews.  The other librarian was horrified that my mom would allow her 6th-grade daughter read something as horrible as that.  Mom just rolled her eyes and said, "If that was all she read, I might be concerned, but she also just finished Gone with the Wind.  I'm not worried."


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## MLPMom (Nov 27, 2009)

As a mother of young children and a reader of YA I can see where swearing in certain books is okay if said in the right context (i.e. the situation warrants it). I don't like excessive swearing in any situation, even adult books but mild swearing has never bothered me. I really don't like the F "bomb" being used in YA. I just think other words can be used to relay the same emotion. 
That being said though, I know young adults swear, I was one once myself but I still don't want to feel like a book is centered around bad language. 
I read everything first before letting my girls read it but they are still young, I know there will be a time that isn't always the case. I trust their judgement though and as a parent I can only hope that what I have taught them rubs off on them and their good sense kicks in when it comes to their choice of reading material.

I have put books down before because of the language (it just wasn't warranted) and would hope they would do the same.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

yeah, young adults swear in real life. but if authors showed other ways of expressing things, perhaps some young adults would find swearing less attractive.

also realize that each generation is different, and while today's YA's may swear, their younger siblings might not, and in a few years your "hip" expressions are going to be dated.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

I don't care to see the 'f' bomb in a YA book, either.  I read a great blog post the other day about how (some) writers try to 'one up' each other in an attempt to shock their readers.  What ends up happening is that the shocking word or scene ends up losing its impact.  Readers become desensitized and, pretty soon, the writers must find something even *more* shocking to engage the reader.


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

I curse way too much. Grew up in a working man's town - (and I know how misogynistic that might sound) - worked many a labouring job, dropped more than my share of hammers on my toes - and so on.

Swearing can be fun - along the same lines as colorful vernacular. Still, I have never appreciated books that call themself "tough" and "real" and what-not, as an excuse to get away with using the "f" word in every second clause.

Besides, I remember my grandfather - who worked forty hard years on the CNR. That man could curse for three whole sentences without using a single swear word. He'd go all biblical, running all the saint's names together.

Let me give you a few examples -

"By the holy bald-headed Moses!" "Jesus Christ in a sidecar!" "Judas priest!" "Jesus-mary-and-joseph!" (that last one I always thought run together in one long word)

Who needs cursing when the bible is close at hand?
"


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## amandamay83 (Apr 11, 2011)

Steve Vernon said:


> Let me give you a few examples -
> 
> "By the holy bald-headed Moses!" *"Jesus Christ in a sidecar!" * "Judas priest!" "Jesus-mary-and-joseph!" (that last one I always thought run together in one long word)
> 
> Who needs cursing when the bible is close at hand?


Oooh! That makes me think of "Christ on a cracker!" Trying to remember where I heard that...Mad Men, maybe?


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

> It will offend some and I have never said, "You know what I really miss in this book, swearing."


Actually, the reason I asked the question now was because I just did miss swearing in a book, lol. I just read a moment in a YA novel where a teen character gets shocked and says "Oh my goodness!". It just feels so out of character, like I'm reading someone from the 50's (or well over their 50's). Sure, I agree something OTHER than a swear word could have fit, something more creative, but "Oh my goodness!" as a weak swear alternative certainly didn't. In my own story, in 80 thousand words I used the f-word just once when a character was seriously having a breakdown/tantrum. Maybe I could have used something else, or left it out, but for me that character would be the type to say it all the time, but this was the only time I felt like I should actually have it in dialogue. One in 80K doesn't seem too bad to me, but I do realise that one is one too many for a lot of people.


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## gatehouseauthor (Apr 22, 2011)

I generally feel that if you keep it minor, it's acceptable, and can be more realistic.

I write young adult.  I don't use F-bombs.  However, there are a couple of instances of "bloody hell" from an alternate world character, a couple of "d*mns" and one "b*stard" in a heated moment in which the protagonist is very angry and yelling at the villain.  I know it sounds silly, but I used a simple rule of thumb.  If you wouldn't find it in a Harry Potter or Artemis Fowl book, you probably won't find it in mine.  Yes... I know... silly rule.  But for YA, I guess there are worse books to pattern your level of swearing after.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm in the no swearing camp. When I slam a car door on my finger today, even as a twenty-eight year old, the first word that spills out of my mouth is "_rats!_" not because I'm consciously holding back cuss words, but because they just never enter my head. You see, I wasn't around anyone who swore until my late teens(first job) so it'd be weird if I _did_ cuss.

So no, I don't think it's strange when a YA book lacks cussing because for some teens that's realistic. It's all in the surroundings.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Selina Fenech said:


> Actually, the reason I asked the question now was because I just did miss swearing in a book, lol. I just read a moment in a YA novel where a teen character gets shocked and says "Oh my goodness!".


Fiddle-dee-dee! Fliberty gibbits! Shucky Darns!

So many replacement swear words are foolish sounding - unless you're Yosemite Sam (rassin-frassin consarn idjet rabbit ....). Personally, I think whether it's YA or not, if it's time to swear, then swear ... but then I'm a casual swearer in real life ....


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## NapCat (retired) (Jan 17, 2011)

I am afraid that the use of graphic vulgarity in YA books (and movies) is telling our youth that this is acceptable in our society. We can get the atmosphere of anger and frustration across without using the actual words.

1. "...George stumbled on a rock in the path. "Fxxx, Fxxx, FXXX" ! He picked himself up and ran to catch up with Amelia..."

or

2. "...George stumbled on a rock in the path. Cursing, he picked himself up and ran to catch up with Amelia..."

To me, example #2 shows George to be more mature guy, spontaneously using vulgarity at an appropriate moment. Example #1 shows an immature man ranting.

************

I work in an industry manned by "roughnecks". I hear less vulgarity on the job-site than I do walking through "the Mall"

************

I am not a prude in any way, but I am tired of being assaulted with raw language in all media formats.

************

Great topic ! Thanks for putting it on the table.


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## WriterCTaylor (Jul 11, 2011)

NapCat said:


> I am afraid that the use of graphic vulgarity in YA books (and movies) is telling our youth that this is acceptable in our society. We can get the atmosphere of anger and frustration across without using the actual words.
> 
> I work in an industry manned by "roughnecks". I hear less vulgarity on the job-site than I do walking through "the Mall"
> 
> ...


I agree. My day job is in a male dominated profession and the swearing I hear from youth day to day is far worse than the language from male adults. Swearing has its place and is fine in books as long as it is realistic. It's like nudity in movies. Don't just put it in there to get more people to see it. Put it there because it is required for the story.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Well, I started reading young adult when I was 11-12 and I know my mom would not have approved of the F bomb in the books I was reading, especially if it was excessive. True, there were plenty of kids that age already using the F bomb themselves (I can't remember when I first started using it myself - maybe about 12-13 but only now and then, not regularly) but that doesn't mean my parents wanted me exposed to books or music or TV/movies which encouraged teens to use that kind of language, especially excessively. It's one thing to be exposed to something, it's another thing to be encouraged to do it. In fact, when I was 13 my mom took a Green Day CD away from me because the lyrics were pretty profane. Had it just been a few swear words, she might have let it go but it was excessive and also talked about masturbation and stuff.

Nowadays, my language is atrocious and I worry if I have kids, I'll be the one accidentally exposing them to such profanity early on!


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

I think that swearing can be used to make a strong impression, but the word itself doesn't necessarily have to be that strong. For example, I *loved * the bit in the last Harry Potter book when Molly Weasley said, "Not my daughter, you bitch!" to Bellatrix Lestrange.


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## Tamara Rose Blodgett (Apr 1, 2011)

I agree, there can be great books that have been run through the "laundry wash." But there is something intrinsically powerful in offering something unique, raw and edgy. _That's what I like to read._ I think there are other readers that yearn for something different or more "real" as well.

The Soulkeepers was a really "clean" YA book that I loved, Hunger Games too. Then there's the "Marked," series...wow! Talk about divergent. I didn't feel that my 14-year old could touch that...just my thoughts.


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## SSantore (Jun 28, 2011)

I don't swear.  I  worked with middle school students for many years.  Some swore.  Some didn't.  It totally depends on their home life and background. I don't put swearing in my YA books and I don't think it is necessary.  Two of the biggest series Harry Potter and The Hunger Games are clean.  There's more swearing in the movies of Harry Potter than in the books.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Ideally a parent should also read any book they are letting their child read. . .so they'll know if there's anything problematic _for their child_. Though that's probably not very practical given the average kid probably has more time to sit and read than mom and dad.  I did do a pretty good job of doing this with my son until he got to be 15 or 16 ...


Honest to all known deities, if my parents had done that, I would never have read. Ever. I'm not saying that you would have been like my parents (in fact, I doubt it), but that would have been the end of reading for me. In fact, I probably would have never become a writer, either. As it was, I smuggled books from the library, or read them there, as to avoid them even asking what I was reading. To this day, I still do when I go to visit them, or just don't bring books at all. It isn't worth it.

I don't care if there is swearing in books for kids or not. Kids will generally go towards what they want. One of mine wants happier, lighter reading and the other has been reading adult fantasy since he was 10 or so. I was reading Danielle Steele, Marc Bolan, and Sidney Sheldon at 12, so that's probably why it doesn't bother me.


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

> Two of the biggest series Harry Potter and The Hunger Games are clean.


To me, this is where we can start opening up the question much more broadly or philosophically though. Hunger Games may not have any swearing, but it certainly has a lot of "adult" content. Death, violence, torturous manipulation- are these things better than a single word that's been classified as "bad"?

Perhaps the point is those events in the story can teach, whether they are dark or not (or BECAUSE they are dark), but a swear word is just a word. But as writers, any single word can be used as a tool for the right effect if done well. So, is swearing ok if it's a tool, and not just a word?

Harry Potter on the other hand to me is a much lighter and whimsical series, even in it's darkest moments, I don't think it would ever have felt right to have any seriously harsh language in it. Again, it depends on the story, the characters and the overall style of the writing.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

NapCat said:


> [size=11pt]I am afraid that the use of graphic vulgarity in YA books (and movies) is telling our youth that this is acceptable in our society. We can get the atmosphere of anger and frustration across without using the actual words.
> 
> I am not a prude in any way, but I am tired of being assaulted with raw language in all media formats.


Well, it kind of is acceptable in much of our society. And kids are exposed to it frequently, no matter how hard you try to protect them. It's just one more reality in life where it's up to parents to teach their kids about their personal, family values pertaining to that.

And kids and adults learn pretty quickly, via consequences, when they use those words inappropriately.

Personally, I think it's a mistake to attach so much stigma to any words...just makes them that much more powerful.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

If the book is about, say, a half dozen 12 year olds figuring out how to send a monster back to the spirit world, I'd be surprised to see swearing or sex in that.

If the book is about, say, a sixteen year old addict who falls into prostitution, I'd be surprised to see no swearing or sex in that.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Honest to all known deities, if my parents had done that, I would never have read. Ever. I'm not saying that you would have been like my parents (in fact, I doubt it), but that would have been the end of reading for me. In fact, I probably would have never become a writer, either. As it was, I smuggled books from the library, or read them there, as to avoid them even asking what I was reading. To this day, I still do when I go to visit them, or just don't bring books at all. It isn't worth it.


LOL Me too. I practically lived at the library, the public one or the one in school...no mom present to oversee. And I read tons of sci-fi which my mother detests, so that wouldna happened.

There wasnt any 'YA' back then really...after The Black Stallion, Nancy Drew, & The Hardy Boys, for ex...you just moved on to adult books. I read The Exorcist at 13.....I didnt understand alot of it but it also didnt damage me in any way.


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## zacharias499 (Jul 28, 2011)

I have my 2 schools of thought on that. On the one hand, you would expect 12 to 18 year olds to swear from their everyday use/interaction. On the other hand, YA books are sometimes read by children much younger than the 12 to 18 demographic. 

Notably though, I agree that you have to keep your dialogue true to character.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

> Honest to all known deities, if my parents had done that, I would never have read.


Lol!!

Yes, I agree that the Hunger Games is clean, but like someone else mentioned, there is a lot of adult themes in that book! My 12 yo daughter read them before me, and when I read them (especially the last one), my eyes nearly popped out of my head. I loved the series, and I wouldn't have stopped my daughter from reading them, but I wish I'd read them first just in case she had any questions about them. (Which, apparently, she didn't. In fact, when I asked her what she thought about what


Spoiler



President Snow had forced Finnick to do


, she looked at me like I was nuts. I guess some of that stuff just went right over her head.)


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

_Posts have been edited or deleted to remove self promotion. Authors, we can tell by your signatures that you have books--no need to work it into every response.  And this thread, after all, is in the Book CORNER. _


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

My question to the authors of YA books: why are you writing YA? 

Are you writing it simply because you think it's a lucrative market? If so, then I guess you can write whatever you think will help you to sell books (and that you can get away with to do so).

Are you writing it because you want to inspire, educate, or otherwise help the so-called young adults? If so, does the use of some arbitrary level of profanity help to achieve those goals, or is it just making you as an author feel more "artistic" or something? (And I suppose that the "arbitrary level of profanity" may also depend on what segment of "YA" you are trying to cater to: 13-14 years or 16-17 years?)

Or is what you are writing really targeted to adults, and simply "YA" because you want to tell a story centered around young adult characters undergoing realistic (or fantastic) situations where realism -- and therefore swearing -- is required for the desired level of verisimilitude?

Personally, if I were writing a YA book, I would limit myself to milder cursing, and try to use my skills as a writer to show strong emotion in other ways. I would do so both because I am not in favor of reinforcing the use of strong swear words among our youth, and because I am inherently not one to use such language around others; and besides, I have read so many wonderful books over the years that did not include a single f-bomb and as such did not leave me feeling that something was missing. In fact, as a fifty-something supposed adult, I still cringe at the use of cursing in some adult books when it seems gratuitous and/or overused.


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## amandamay83 (Apr 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Honest to all known deities, if my parents had done that, I would never have read. Ever. I'm not saying that you would have been like my parents (in fact, I doubt it), but that would have been the end of reading for me. In fact, I probably would have never become a writer, either. As it was, I smuggled books from the library, or read them there, as to avoid them even asking what I was reading. To this day, I still do when I go to visit them, or just don't bring books at all. It isn't worth it.
> 
> I don't care if there is swearing in books for kids or not. Kids will generally go towards what they want. One of mine wants happier, lighter reading and the other has been reading adult fantasy since he was 10 or so. *I was reading Danielle Steele, Marc Bolan, and Sidney Sheldon at 12, so that's probably why it doesn't bother me*.


I think we are kindred spirits 

I've often wondered if Mom handing me Danielle Steele wasn't her way of getting around the birds and the bees talk


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## Ann Herrick (Sep 24, 2010)

NogDog said:


> My question to the authors of YA books: why are you writing YA?
> 
> Are you writing it simply because you think it's a lucrative market? If so, then I guess you can write whatever you think will help you to sell books (and that you can get away with to do so).
> 
> ...


I write with a YA audience in mind, though adults read some of my books, too. Some are geared to the younger YAs, others to older YAs. In my earlier YAs, I had no swear words/obscenities.

Of my three new YAs, only one has mild obscenties, 3 or 4 in the entire book. No F-bombs. Reference is made to more swearing by minor characters without using the words (he swore under his breath, etc.). They fit the story.

If I have woven in something that inspires the reader, so much the better, but my main goal is to tell a good story.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

Plain and simple--you can't censor life. As a parent, I know my teens are exposed to things outside of my control and if they choose to read a book, any book, I support that. I don't have the time or inclination to pre-screen. Too liberal? I don't think so. They're good kids and not naive, capable of keeping themselves relatively safe. I think every parent has to make those decisions for themselves and their kids. There's no wrong way to parent (On the protective side for clarification. AmandaMay83 is right, plenty of wrong ways to parent the other way!)


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## amandamay83 (Apr 11, 2011)

belindaf said:


> Plain and simple--you can't censor life. As a parent, I know my teens are exposed to things outside of my control and if they choose to read a book, any book, I support that. I don't have the time or inclination to pre-screen. Too liberal? I don't think so. They're good kids and not naive, capable of keeping themselves relatively safe. I think every parent has to make those decisions for themselves and their kids. *There's no wrong way to parent*.


Welllll....that might be stretching it. (Then again, I work for a lawyer who represents a lot of parents with abuse and neglect charges, so I might be overly cynical.)

My kids are young (3 and 4), so I'm sure many will disregard my thoughts, but the way I see it, by time your kid is a teenager, you've pretty well passed their formative years. Sure, you need guide them still, but right or wrong, they're personalities are already formed. If they're the sort to swear, the will. If they're not, they won't. And it doesn't really matter whether they read a book with f**k in it or not.

My mom's a librarian and there were a couple uber-conservative parents who DID read everything their kids read. You better believe as soon as those kids were out from under their mom's thumb, they were racing for Danielle Steele and Stephen King.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

You got me AmandaMay! I meant on the protective side not trying to be offensive to those that DO want to censor everything their kids read. There sure are plenty of ways to go wrong on the other end of the spectrum. I've clarified. LOL


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

amandamay83 said:


> My mom's a librarian and there were a couple uber-conservative parents who DID read everything their kids read. You better believe as soon as those kids were out from under their mom's thumb, they were racing for Danielle Steele and Stephen King.


I think some people have construed something I absolutely didn't mean by my comment that parents, ideally, should read or have read what their kids read. That doesn't mean you don't let them read it; just that you know what's in it so you know what they might want to talk about, and are prepared for the conversation!

And of course, the older the kids get, the less this will apply; by the time they're teens you'll have taught them your values and will be able to trust that they will know what they're doing in choosing books for themselves. And will have kept the lines of communication open if their choices aren't always _your_ choices! 

On the other hand, if you teach them early on that some books are 'forbidden', they'll still read 'em, but they'll learn to hide 'em -- and you'll have no idea what ideas they're getting from them because you don't even know they're there. If you pretty much let them read what they want without judgment you'll KNOW what they're reading because the books will be in plain sight. And, if necessary, you can open a discussion.

I suppose this wouldn't work for everybody. All I know is it worked for my four brothers and I -- we were never forbidden to read anything -- and there were a LOT of books in the house. At worst we were told, "well, I think that might be a bit much for you yet, but let me know if you have any questions." I applied the same rule to my son and it seemed to work for him as well.


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## Cindy Borgne (Mar 21, 2011)

I hardly ever swear, but I think mild language is okay in mature YA books as long as it fits the character/situation. However, I don't like the use of the F-bomb in YA.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Ann, like I said, I doubt you are/were reading the books to censor the kids or that your method would be why my parents would have (if they'd realized what I was reading). I've done the "this might be a bit much for you", too; they've gone with the book about half of the time. Another half of the time after that, they've given it back and said it wasn't for them. 

Since I grew up with very different morals from my parents, they would have felt like failures in my reading choices (they would still, too). In fact, I tell them specifically: do not read anything I've written. Don't buy it. Don't look at it. Don't let anyone even show it to you. It's just better that way  

I grew up in an ultra conservative home where I was given books through church and from other family members. If that had been the only exposure I'd ever had in book...well...

Let me give two examples. I was bringing home books like this one where the heroine was a ballet dancer who got pregnant and her choice was an abortion or give up dancing forever (because, apparently, they didn't have daycare in this book's world).

The other extreme was reading a book by or about Gandhi (I forget which now) and having him speak about "god" and coming to realize that someone other than a Christian could believe in a god. Until then, I was honestly taught that you were either a Christian or an atheist/non-Christian. A book taught me that there was an entire world of religions out there who did not feel inferior to my own.

Two extreme examples, but if I didn't have unlimited reading, well, things would have gone a lot different for me I think.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Not all swear words are equal -- I think the f-word is more vulgar than a character saying s**t.  I'd get tired of hanging out with a friend who swore all the time, and I feel the same way about books.

If ratings made parents feel better about giving certain books to their kids, I'd be all for it, but I don't know how the system could work.  A filter could search for words, but you'd need a human to check for, um, some of the trash I read when I was a young teen.  (VC Andrews -- yikes!  What were my parents thinking!)


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

Well, you all have swayed me. After thinking about it more, I decided that the moments in my writing which included the swear words didn't really need them. The rest of the dialogue/action told enough of a story for the scene. I don't swear personally, even though I grew up in a home where it wasn't punished at all and a high school that was rife with it. I also don't care if people around me swear.
But, as much as I don't mind it, I know other people do. Every time someone bought my book I cringed a tiny bit internally, feeling guilty like I should have warnings on it... just for one silly word. It wasn't worth it, and I decided to simply remove it. Overall though I don't believe swear words should be taken out of YA, it was just for personal peace of mind. The original examples I gave of YA with swearing, the swearing was important to the book I believe. For example, In Julie Kagawa's Iron King, early in the book


Spoiler



the main characters sweet younger brother, one of the few people she really cares about and who also cares about her, is swapped for a vile changeling. The pretend version of the sweet little boy uses the F word when abusing her.


 It certainly made an impression, as it was meant to. I think it is a good example of the word being used for real impact. From memory, it was the only time the word was used in the whole book, again showing it was carefully considered for that specific use.

(Not really a spoiler above, but just wanted to be sure.)


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## AnnetteL (Jul 14, 2010)

I agree with several comments here--to a great extent, whether there's swearing in a YA (or, frankly, any book) depends on the characters and the story. 

To have a serial killer say, "oh, shucks," isn't realistic.

On the other hand, I have a friend who's got a big 3-book deal with Harper Teen who had some mild language in his first book, and his editor made him take a few of them OUT because she didn't think it was natural to the character.

I don't buy the argument that throwing in swearing is okay because it's real (kids really swear). I don't want to wade through a lot of junk even if it is "real," and as the parent of teens, I don't want them to, either. A lot of real things aren't what I want to read about.


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## lib2b (Apr 6, 2010)

NogDog said:


> Are you writing it because you want to inspire, educate, or otherwise help the so-called young adults? If so, does the use of some arbitrary level of profanity help to achieve those goals, or is it just making you as an author feel more "artistic" or something? (And I suppose that the "arbitrary level of profanity" may also depend on what segment of "YA" you are trying to cater to: 13-14 years or 16-17 years?)


In my opinion, if you are writing to "inspire, educate, or otherwise help" young people, you aren't really writing for them. Young adult fiction is written for 12-18 year-olds about _things they can relate to or interest them_ - not what adults think young people need to read about.



NogDog said:


> Or is what you are writing really targeted to adults, and simply "YA" because you want to tell a story centered around young adult characters undergoing realistic (or fantastic) situations where realism -- and therefore swearing -- is required for the desired level of verisimilitude?


If the book is about young adult characters in realistic situations, if those situations are ones that young adults can relate to or ones that interest them, and the author intended the audience to be young adults because they know that the content will appeal, even with what some adults may consider "adult" content, then the book is young adult.

By the time I was 12, I read adult novels almost exclusively, mostly because they were longer and I was an avid reader. I read my mom's romance novels and my dad's science fiction novels, neither of them geared towards people my age. Both contained sexual situations that many parents would probably censor from a 12 year old. My dad's books especially had swearing. I was not scarred for life. I did not start swearing. I did not have sex in middle school or high school despite reading about it on a regular basis.

As a young adult librarian, I have read tons of young adult novels (more now as an adult than I ever did when I was a young adult). Swear words or not, mature content or not, young people tend to like to read books they can relate to. This means that if they have lived a life of no swear words and so on, they tend to prefer that in their fiction because it's what they relate to. If they've lived a life where cursing is a part of normal everyday life and people are having sex at 13, if the books they're offered to read don't contain those things, they don't relate to them, don't think they're realistic, and don't have any interest in reading them.

So really, when thinking about whether a YA book "should" have swear words or not, the author really needs to think about the intended audience. Is that an audience of young adults who would avoid swear words in the book? In that case, leave them out. Is that audience one that will turn away from a book that lacks swear words as unrealistic? Leave them in. There are of course exceptions, but you probably aren't going to appeal to both YA audiences with the same book.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2011)

As to the OP's comment about "missing" the swearing when a character said: "Oh my goodness" like someone in the 50s, I think the first - and arguably best - question to ask is whether the character is from the 50s. I'm guessing not. But I think she raised a good point. If the character is in an environment conducive to swearing, then barring exceptional self-control on his part, he will undoubtedly swear more himself.

I am opposed to swearing for myself - and I don't like to hear it at work (although I never try to control what others say). This is one reason why my characters are always people of exceptional self-control; they wouldn't swear. But if I was writing about very different people than the swearing might become necessary, inasmuch as it marks authenticity.


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## Tamara Rose Blodgett (Apr 1, 2011)

I love what Ann had to say; categorically. I've read about 95% of what my four sons have read while they lived at home for the express purpose of discussing the literature after they've read it. I did not forbid reading either but was active with "feeding" them the books that I believed were wonderful and at the same time not gratuitous. Not always an easy task. 

They are avid readers now and that made school less of a chore as well.



Like one post mentioned, "swear words" have been assigned their negative attribution by others. We give them more power than they deserve. We rarely swear in our household and look at swearing, in general, as a negative digression in vocabulary. But...conversely, it certainly has its perfect use on occasion when nothing else will do. They're just words.

*nogdog* Sorry for the loss of your pet...  

Thanks for the thread!


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

I recently read "The Painted Man" by Peter V Brett (also confusing released as "The Warded Man". Excellent book in many ways but the substitute swear words pulled me out of the story every time; they just seemed silly. Actual swearing, where appropriate for the characters and not overused, would have added to the realism rather than detracting from it.


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## JChris (Jul 18, 2011)

If anything, kids reading a YA book with profanity will probably just stop and say, "Look, here's the f word!" But other than that, they won't really care, as long as it's not gone to far. 

I think Young Adult fiction should do without the cursing. It's supposed to be innocent and tame. That's why its for young readers. If it has cursing then its probably dealing with more adult issues that kids probably shouldn't be reading. I think as long as its something out of a PG-13 movie, you shouldn't worry too much about it. If the kids are cursing constantly though, then it's probably a lot darker than you think. Kids that curse that much probably have some serious issues at home and that turns into "boring adult" material kids probably don't want to read about.


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## Jordan Parkes (Jul 16, 2011)

Like some other people in here have said, I agree that if it makes sense for the character to swear then let him swear. If you don't agree with the authors use of swear words you should skim through the book to check if there are any there. I am of the belief that by the time they get to high school their vocabulary is already high with swear words (whether you know that or not) I am young enough to remember high school clearly and it was chalk full of it. Kids still finding their identity like to use it to sound like a bad ass or edgy cool.


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

I am considering writing up a blog about this, it's been really interesting for me. Does anyone mind if I anonymously quote parts of the discussion here for both sides of the debate?


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## Jordan Parkes (Jul 16, 2011)

I can't see anyone minding an anonymous quote.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Selina Fenech said:


> I am considering writing up a blog about this, it's been really interesting for me. Does anyone mind if I anonymously quote parts of the discussion here for both sides of the debate?


I would suggest you not quote anyone without first getting their explicit permission. . . . . yes, this is the internet, and everything is fair game, theoretically, but common courtesy says check with the originator of any post you want to quote before doing so.


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

Yes, once I start writing I'll check back in and contact those I actually plan to quote from I think. I didn't mean to be blanket about it, just thinking too far in advance.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

Selina Fenech said:


> I am considering writing up a blog about this, it's been really interesting for me. Does anyone mind if I anonymously quote parts of the discussion here for both sides of the debate?


I certainly wouldn't. But be sure to post a link to the post. I'd be very interested to read it!


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

tituspowell said:


> I recently read "The Painted Man" by Peter V Brett (also confusing released as "The Warded Man". Excellent book in many ways but the substitute swear words pulled me out of the story every time; they just seemed silly. Actual swearing, where appropriate for the characters and not overused, would have added to the realism rather than detracting from it.


I always wonder, though, how many such cases could be avoided simply by using different dialogue. E.g., instead of writing, "Oh my goodness!" said Bob. "What in Heaven's name were you thinking?" as a "clean" replacement for, "J### #### C###!" said Bob, "What the #### were you thinking?"; how often could the stronger emotion of the latter be replaced just as effectively -- if not even more so -- with a little description and even simpler dialogue:


Bob's face turned red, and the veins in his temples visibly throbbed. "What were you thinking?!" he yelled in my face, scaring me half to death.

Has the scene become less "real" by doing so? Maybe so if you are trying to represent a very specific cultural situation; but I'd guess that in a majority of cases, not really -- while your book would remain accessible to a wider range of young audiences (and their parents) than it might if you simply used profanity to indicate emotion.

In the end, you need to write what you feel you must, and I will never hold that against any author. However -- especially for YA books -- if there is a way to express what you want to express without having to risk offending some readers (or parents not allowing some readers access to your books), at least think twice about how truly necessary it is before going ahead with the use of profanity.


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

I did end up writing a blog on this, just my own ramblings and thoughts after all without quoting from here. I won't post a link because I'm not sure I'm allowed to?
It's interesting, most of the feedback here has been anti-swearing to some extent or another, and so far on my blog feedback has been, well, not pro swearing, but anti censorship of any form.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Selina Fenech said:


> I did end up writing a blog on this, just my own ramblings and thoughts after all without quoting from here. I won't post a link because I'm not sure I'm allowed to?
> It's interesting, most of the feedback here has been anti-swearing to some extent or another, and so far on my blog feedback has been, well, not pro swearing, but anti censorship of any form.


To my mind, if an author chooses on his/her own not to use certain words, that is not censorship. If the author is _forced_ by some third party (publisher, state school board, political action group, etc.) to remove certain words that are considered unacceptable for whatever reason by that party, _then_ it is censorship. Otherwise it is no different than any other choice you make regarding content versus the desired target audience; whether it be swearing, graphic violence, graphic sex, bigotry of any sort, and so forth. As long as it is _you_, the author, deciding what _you_ want to do based on all the competing issues you need to deal with (your artistic vision, what your target audience expects, what the market will accept, and so forth), then it is not censorship. It is your choice whether to give priority to your artistic preferences versus perceived sales concerns -- neither preference is right or wrong, just a choice you need to make yourself based on your goals and reasons for writing the book in the first place.


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## youngadultfiction (Jul 28, 2011)

I agree with nogdog, it does really depend on what you hope to achieve with your book and the reasons behind any changes you might have to make. If you remove the 'swearing' then does this destroy the scene or the situation that you are trying to create? Does it matter if an editor tells you to cut out some of the language because they want it to reach a younger audience, (when editors will always change something in your book anyway to reduce costs or pick up the pace of the story?) At least with Kindle, self publishing etc, you have far more control about what you want for your work I guess.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

> To my mind, if an author chooses on his/her own not to use certain words, that is not censorship.


Definitely. Nicely worded!


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2011)

I'll take an unpopular stand on this issue. Building on my previous post, I will say this: I don't like a lot of swearing; I find it mostly negative. And since I am surrounded by negativity in the world through no fault of my own, when I have the choice I choose to associate with people who speak positively and thus, don't swear. (I should add that this does not include those moments of anger when words fly without thought; I speak of people who swear for no good reason.)

This translates to books this way: reading the novel is like spending time with an acquaintance - in this case, the author or his/her character. If I would not choose to build a friendship with someone in real life who swears needlessly, neither would I do so in my spare time. Thus, when I start a book and it contains unnecessary swearing ("unnecessary" is largely subjective, I realize), I usually put the book down. I may miss out on good writing and otherwise good novels, but I'm okay with that. As a rule, I want as little negativity in my life as I can.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Z.D. Robinson said:


> I'll take an unpopular stand on this issue. Building on my previous post, I will say this: I don't like a lot of swearing; I find it mostly negative. And since I am surrounded by negativity in the world through no fault of my own, when I have the choice I choose to associate with people who speak positively and thus, don't swear. (I should add that this does not include those moments of anger when words fly without thought; I speak of people who swear for no good reason.)
> 
> This translates to books this way: reading the novel is like spending time with an acquaintance - in this case, the author or his/her character. If I would not choose to build a friendship with someone in real life who swears needlessly, neither would I do so in my spare time. Thus, when I start a book and it contains unnecessary swearing ("unnecessary" is largely subjective, I realize), I usually put the book down. I may miss out on good writing and otherwise good novels, but I'm okay with that. As a rule, I want as little negativity in my life as I can.


Well, that's not "unpopular" with me. It's probably a fairly apt description of myself and my reading preferences.  I don't necessarily intentionally avoid profanity in literature, but overuse and/or misuse can drive me away from a book, or at least be one of several factors that might; and I would guess that the vast majority of my all-time favorite books have little to no strong profanity (for some undefined value of "strong").


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2011)

NogDog said:


> Well, that's not "unpopular" with me. It's probably a fairly apt description of myself and my reading preferences.  I don't necessarily intentionally avoid profanity in literature, but overuse and/or misuse can drive me away from a book, or at least be one of several factors that might; and I would guess that the vast majority of my all-time favorite books have little to no strong profanity (for some undefined value of "strong").


"Strong" is subjective, isn't it? lol

For me, if I get a sense that the book, if made into a movie, would be rated R, I choose something else. The F word particularly offends me, as I see no positive use of that word. Every use of that word carries with it an emotion I have no interest in expressing or entertaining myself with. (bad sentence-ending preposition there, I know.)


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## Tara Maya (Nov 4, 2010)

arshield said:


> I am with Ann. But in general, if there is not a good reason for swearing, why put it in? It will offend some and I have never said, "You know what I really miss in this book, swearing."


Maybe I haven't said that, exactly, but I've read books about supposedly modern teens and thought, "This dialogue doesn't sound realistic at all." I'm not saying it has to include swearing to sound realistic, but, frankly I'd rather have an expletive where an expletive would normally be than false-sounding language.

I admit, I'm not hung on on it either way. In my own YA fantasy series, where characters don't have to sound modern, I use phrases from their own culture for expletives.


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## Jim Franz (May 22, 2011)

I recently read the book Catalyst by Laurie Halse Anderson. It's actually a serious book, but Anderson had me laughing during one paragraph. Neighbors have shown up at a house, to help fix it up after a fire. Teri, a teen who lives in the damaged house, doesn't want the help, to put it mildly. What Anderson wrote from the point of view of another teen was:

. . . Teri lets fly with an astounding collection of profanity, delivered at full volume. To paraphrase: "Get out of my way, you _adjective noun_. This is my _multiple adjective _ house, and none of you _plural noun _ belong here." She points at the volunteers staring at her. (More paraphrasing here.) "I want you to arrest these _adverb, adverb, truly rude gerund _ mothers. They're trespassing. Get them out!"

It's one of those passages that I can't help but think, "I wish I'd written that!"


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## Tara Maya (Nov 4, 2010)

Selina Fenech said:


> I am considering writing up a blog about this, it's been really interesting for me. Does anyone mind if I anonymously quote parts of the discussion here for both sides of the debate?


Sure, but an attributed quote is even better.


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