# If I were a billionaire ...



## Guest (Dec 5, 2013)

... I'd use my money to develop space travel and exploration, kind of like the founder of Virgin Galactic. I'd focus all my energy and resources on some amazing and worthwhile project that would advance the course of human civilization, solving previously intractable problems while constantly pushing at the boundaries of the impossible. With all of that consuming my thoughts and attention, what time would I have for banal erotic escapades or tedious affairs with overly submissive women? If anything, I'd want a partner who shared my vision for accomplishing greatness--anyone else would bore me into a stupor.

In other words, I get the sense that I'd really, _really_, REALLY hate billionaire erotica.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I thought about that, too, and share your views.
In fact, my eyes glaze over as soon as I see the word "billionaire" in a blurb or title.
I think a while ago everyone was a princess or some fantabulous heiress.

However, I also understand that wish-fulfillment fantasy is a for many a delicious way to pass the time and reality doesn't need to intrude upon it. 
You and I write science fiction. Is that any less wish-fulfillment than getting laid by a rich man with a kink? Perhaps a little richer in plot and character, but, in the end, someone else with a billion bucks might use that to cure a disease or world hunger and wouldn't even think about heading into space.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

It's a trillionaire or nuthin'


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

I've always thought all billionaire playboys were so busy fighting crime at night in their dark batsuits that they have no time to tie up young women who are looking for dominant men.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

dgaughran said:


> It's a trillionaire or nuthin'


Nods. A billion just doesn't go as far as it used to.


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## Deena Ward (Jun 20, 2013)

And if you were a fireman, would you hate fireman erotica? How about a cop? Or a tattooed rock star? A werewolf? A dinosaur? A multi-tentacled critter from the dark deep?

Let your hate flow, if you must, but why limit yourself?


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Deena Ward said:


> And if you were a fireman, would you hate fireman erotica? How about a cop? Or a tattooed rock star? A werewolf? A dinosaur? A multi-tentacled critter from the dark deep?


Probably. But, heck, if it sells, LET IT RAIN BILLIONAIRES!


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Sure you say that now, but once you become a billionaire... out comes the blindfolds and things.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Joe, you should have sex some time. It's really great. I'll bet even billionaires love it.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm tempted to write billionaire erotica, but I have a hard time with the idea of fetishizing money. It's really a principle thing for me. I have a moral issue with the uneven distribution of wealth. BUT, I would never criticize anyone for writing it. Maybe if _I_ did, my own distribution wealth would increase.

In my last series the girl was an upper middle class college graduate who was spreading her wings. The dude was a millionaire, but by the end of the story the girl has made her own million with her own talent and work, so, there you go...


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

It is an interesting phenomenon.

Meanwhile, literary-ish books about ACTUAL rich people dealing with their ennui are universally despised by seemingly the same people who love billionaire e-rom.

The problem is inflation! I'd happily write about millionaires, but nobody's looking for them. A million isn't what it used to be. In my city, you'd need a million dollars to own a tear-down house. And then there's nothing name-worthy between millionaire and billionaire. 

I'm glad so many authors hate these sexy, kinky billionaires who need love. More characters for me!


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> Joe, you should have sex some time. It's really great. I'll bet even billionaires love it.


That's what you got from the OP??
There's a big distance between lacking interest in reading other people's sexual fantasies and whether or not you have sex yourself, especially if it involves fetishes, which is a smaller sub-genre.


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## WordSaladTongs (Oct 14, 2013)

MichaelWallace said:


> Joe, you should have sex some time. It's really great. I'll bet even billionaires love it.


How do you clean coffee and snot out of a keyboard?


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Quiss said:


> That's what you got from the OP??
> There's a big distance between lacking interest in reading other people's sexual fantasies and whether or not you have sex yourself, especially if it involves fetishes, which is a smaller sub-genre.


Ah, come on. Joe started a thread dismissing erotica writers with a witty comment. Surely he can take a little needling in the other direction.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe I'd write a billionaire vampire.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Gee, thanks for the earworm...


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Trinity Night said:


> Maybe I'd write a billionaire vampire.


Dracula was loaded and look what happened to him.
Ohhh, billionaire zombies. On Meth!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

One reason the billionaire genre is so popular is there's conflict built right into the premise. Dating between two classes has always been a popular plot driver for romance.

Readers may not know the terms, or ask for a story with built-in conflict, but they know what they like.

(Interesting how I respond to flip OP with a thoughtful answer ... maybe I'm not dead inside after all from all the selling out!)


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Dalya said:


> One reason the billionaire genre is so popular is there's conflict built right into the premise. Dating between two classes has always been a popular plot driver for romance.


It worked in Pride & Prejudice re: classes...


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)




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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

If you don't like billionaire erotica, you can go the other way.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

tkkenyon said:


> Too late. Been done.
> 
> Lestat was the billionaire vampire rock star.
> 
> TK


Anne Rice always on the cutting edge...


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

tkkenyon said:


> Too late. Been done.
> 
> Lestat was the billionaire vampire rock star.
> 
> TK


OMG. The trifecta! It's becoming even more tempting. My next project is going to be a cross between Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights. I'll have to wait a few months for the billionaire vampire.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

I wan to be a billionaire so freaking bad... buy all of the things I never had. I wan to be on the cover of Forbes magazine, smiling next to Oprah and the Queen.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Are you saying this isn't sexy?










Warren Buffett


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Deanna Chase said:


> Are you saying this isn't sexy?


Just look at the size of that paddle! 

So what I want to know is, how do those billionaires set up their BDSM dungeons? You'd think the delivery/installation people would gossip to the local paper. Amazon drone delivery? Or do they have trusted Alfreds that manage these things and clean the equipment in the morning?

Okay, I think all this flu medicine has made me delirious. I'm going to bed now.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

They probably mistake billionaires' BDSM dungeons for serial killers' torture dungeons (which are even more expensive) and don't dare say a word because _Saw_.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

As another person has stated, class conflict has been common in romance and erotica for a long time. Ever read a regency novel? Stories frequently involved the titled, wealthy gentleman who falls in love with the less privileged heroine. It's part of the Cinderella story that many readers enjoy.


I guess if we were to analyze it - looking back historically, marriage was about class security and mobility. So, the billionaire angle doesn't seem outlandish in the greater context.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

He was a vampire billionaire vampire hunter who would shift to a dinosaur on a full moon.


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> As another person has stated, class conflict has been common in romance and erotica for a long time. Ever read a regency novel? Stories frequently involved the titled, wealthy gentleman who falls in love with the less privileged heroine. It's part of the Cinderella story that many readers enjoy.
> 
> I guess if we were to analyze it - looking back historically, marriage was about class security and mobility. So, the billionaire angle doesn't seem outlandish in the greater context.


Mr. Darcy had _10,000_ a year!!


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## dkgould (Feb 18, 2013)

cassidycayman said:


> Mr. Darcy had _10,000_ a year!!


 I thought it was Mr. Bingley that was 10,000, because didn't Mr.Darcy's sister have 30,000? And he would surely have more than his sister. Anyway, you have to factor for inflation. And skyrocketing real estate prices. 

And the ear worm that got in my head wasn't from Fiddler on the Roof it was from The Barenaked Ladies


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

dkgould said:


> I thought it was Mr. Bingley that was 10,000, because didn't Mr.Darcy's sister have 30,000? And he would surely have more than his sister. Anyway, you have to factor for inflation. And skyrocketing real estate prices.
> 
> And the ear worm that got in my head wasn't from Fiddler on the Roof it was from The Barenaked Ladies


I was thinking that cassidy was joking?

Well, if not, this puts Mr. Darcy's worth into modern terms.

http://www.huffenglish.com/?p=562

$600,000 a year ain't too shabby


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Security has always been a turn on for women because of our insecure positions in society relative to men. Obviously, rich men provide the greatest security for our own physical needs and those of our children. It makes wealthy men an insanely popular trope.

I struggle with this issue myself, as a woman who wants to provide for herself with her writing. How do I benefit women more: writing something that will make me more independent, or refusing to write it because I believe female heroines should be independent? Hmmmm....


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

WordSaladTongs said:


> How do you clean coffee and snot out of a keyboard?


You let it dry then turn it over and spank it.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

cassidycayman said:


> Mr. Darcy had _10,000_ a year!!


"And very likely more."

Oh, how I love P&P.

(P.S. His sister Georgiana had 30,000 or whatever it was TOTAL. Mr. Darcy had ten thousand a year. And very likely more. There, I did it again.)


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Trinity Night said:


> Security has always been a turn on for women because of our insecure positions in society relative to men. Obviously, rich men provide the greatest security for our own physical needs and those of our children. It makes wealthy men an insanely popular trope.
> 
> I struggle with this issue myself, as a woman who wants to provide for herself with her writing. How do I benefit women more: writing something that will make me more independent, or refusing to write it because I believe female heroines should be independent? Hmmmm....


I'd lead by example in my personal life if it were me..


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I was thinking that cassidy was joking?
> 
> Well, if not, this puts Mr. Darcy's worth into modern terms.
> 
> ...


No, not joking. Fitzwilliam Darcy was hot, rich and NICE. As far as I know he didn't have a sex dungeon. No, I _know_ he didn't. Shut up if you think he did!!


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

cassidycayman said:


> No, not joking. Fitzwilliam Darcy was hot, rich and NICE. As far as I know he didn't have a sex dungeon. No, I _know_ he didn't. Shut up if you think he did!!


I meant joking tone, not a dismissing tone (phfft... he only made 10,000!!). I thought the other poster thought you were being dismissive.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2013)

Worse than billionaire erotica would be writer erotica. Who would want sex with a pale, overweight, middle-aged scribbler?


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## Joshua Dalzelle (Jun 12, 2013)

Back to the OP...


Branson has a cool idea with Virgin Galactic, and I've always been a Burt Rutan fan since the Beechcraft "Starship."

Elon Musk has an edge right now with Space-X as far as a serious push into private spaceflight. In my "real" job we build avionics for United Launch Alliance vehicles and a host of other spacecraft and they've come in to talk about using our gear. The Falcon-9 was an interesting first step, but Falcon Heavy (if they pull it off) will be insane. 

But yeah, it's nice to see the dropped ball in spaceflight was picked up by a few super-rich visionaries.


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

I could see myself getting frisky with a hot billionaire, although I'd prefer twin half-billionaires - or maybe three $330 millionaires and a $10 million swimsuit model.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Hmmm, Joe. I'm not sure why, out of the blue, you feel compelled to disparage themes others read/write in a forum where some of those very readers and writers hang out. Trying to make a joke out of your biases really isn't cool. 

You're not the audience for it. Fine. I'm not the audience for a lot of themes (including billionaire erotica), but I don't start threads specifically to disparage or make fun of them. Not to say we as a community can't have a bit of fun, just as *some* of the posters to this thread have been doing in a very non-judgmental way (and some have even managed to turn it into a serious discussion), but that OP was, imo, pretty passive-aggressive. 

Those who have big aspirations about advancing the course of human civilization might want to start small -- like by not inciting prejudice and divisiveness in the communities they frequent.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Not only a billionaire, but a RICH billionaire on top of it.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Well, a poor billionaire would kind of defeat the purpose.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be both a billionaire AND rich. And nailing virgins on top of it.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Hmmm, Joe. I'm not sure why, out of the blue, you feel compelled to disparage themes others read/write in a forum where some of those very readers and writers hang out. Trying to make a joke out of your biases really isn't cool.
> 
> You're not the audience for it. Fine. I'm not the audience for a lot of themes (including billionaire erotica), but I don't start threads specifically to disparage or make fun of them. Not to say we as a community can't have a bit of fun, just as *some* of the posters to this thread have been doing in a very non-judgmental way (and some have even managed to turn it into a serious discussion), but that OP was, imo, pretty passive-aggressive.
> 
> Those who have big aspirations about advancing the course of human civilization might want to start small -- like by not inciting prejudice and divisiveness in the communities they frequent.


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## olefish (Jan 24, 2012)

I think, women would be surprised how much those raging manly billionaires prefer to be dominated instead.  Sigh, the market for femdom stories is so much smaller compared to male doms stories.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)




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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Willieboo said:


> Worse than billionaire erotica would be writer erotica. Who would want sex with a pale, overweight, middle-aged scribbler?


Hopefully my husband.

'Cause he sure didn't get a billionaire.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)




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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

1001nightspress said:


> Hopefully my husband. 'Cause he sure didn't get a billionaire.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

And to satisfy Rule 34:


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2013)

Wow, this thread sure exploded while I was gone. I would write some sort of response here, but it would appear that all the angles have been covered, including my personal sex life. All I can say is thank goodness we don't all need secret dungeons to get it on.


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

dkgould said:


> And the ear worm that got in my head wasn't from Fiddler on the Roof it was from The Barenaked Ladies


*Giggle!* Same here -- Dijon Ketchups!


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

dkgould said:


> I thought it was Mr. Bingley that was 10,000, because didn't Mr.Darcy's sister have 30,000? And he would surely have more than his sister. Anyway, you have to factor for inflation. And skyrocketing real estate prices.


He owned half of Derbyshire don't you know!

I only liked reading P&P for the part where it mentions my home town - Matlock.

I'm not an expert, because I've only read 50 shades, but the way I see it, billionaire erotica takes aspects of Wuthering Heights (passion filled dangerous and controlling relationships), Pride and Prejudice (class differences creating tension) and sex! No wonder it's popular. It's a trope that has existed for a hundred years with added sexual content. Think Lady Chatterley's Lover but the other way around and without the fancy prose.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

> I'd use my money to develop space travel and exploration, kind of like the founder of *Virgin Galactic.*


I think the OP has identified a hot new sub-genre. Billionaire zero gravity erotica. And with virgins! You know it would sell.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> ... I'd use my money to develop space travel and exploration, kind of like the founder of Virgin Galactic. I'd focus all my energy and resources on some amazing and worthwhile project that would advance the course of human civilization, solving previously intractable problems while constantly pushing at the boundaries of the impossible. With all of that consuming my thoughts and attention, what time would I have for banal erotic escapades or tedious affairs with overly submissive women? If anything, I'd want a partner who shared my vision for accomplishing greatness--anyone else would bore me into a stupor.
> 
> In other words, I get the sense that I'd really, _really_, REALLY hate billionaire erotica.


I'm totally with you, of course those reading such things are all about the money NOT the eroticism I feel. They would probably think sex with the old guy or gal was just the price of getting at that money.


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

Lol, this thread makes me think of John Ringo's Troy Rising series. Billionaire makes his money selling tech, saves world repeatedly and abstains from sex throughout  Tons of sexual tension throughout.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I used to work for this guy - http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2012/09/18/chuck-feeney-the-billionaire-who-is-trying-to-go-broke/ - now that's a billionaire who impresses me (though not in a sexual way due to the age difference!) His wife is really lovely too.

A guy who has enough to support himself and his family and who does so much good -is far more impressive to me than a guy who clings on to his billions and only spends them on himself and his lady in a gratuitous show of wealth and power.

Chuck is an inspiration. Probably one of the most remarkable people I'll ever meet.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> Sure you say that now, but once you become a billionaire... out comes the blindfolds and things.


LOL!!

Yeah, it's like, as soon as your bank account registers a billion, the financial institution immediately sends you a very special kit... Ahem.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Dalya said:


> One reason the billionaire genre is so popular is there's conflict built right into the premise. Dating between two classes has always been a popular plot driver for romance.
> 
> Readers may not know the terms, or ask for a story with built-in conflict, but they know what they like.
> 
> (Interesting how I respond to flip OP with a thoughtful answer ... maybe I'm not dead inside after all from all the selling out!)


Dalya/ Mimi,

Oh, how I love you and everything you say! It's to the point of awesome! 

*smooch*


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Willieboo said:


> Worse than billionaire erotica would be writer erotica. Who would want sex with a pale, overweight, middle-aged scribbler?


HEY! Who you callin' a scribbler!


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

olefish said:


> I think, women would be surprised how much those raging manly billionaires prefer to be dominated instead. Sigh, the market for femdom stories is so much smaller compared to male doms stories.


I was thinking that.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I'm going in the other direction, homeless erotica. The climax of the dumpster-love scene when they both die of malnutrition is hawt. And nobody comes to the burrial in the mass grave for the homeless, so they can spend eternety together, alone, along with the other ten million corpses nobody gives a crap about. Think it'll sell?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

humblenations said:


> You not seen the recent Harmony Karine film ... it's called Trash Humpers and it's hilarious ... if you like your humour arty. I do!


I'd have a really hard time writing a comedy about the homeless. I'm not gonna judge someone who can write something like that, because I think if it's done right it could make them sympathetic enough to get some people to crack open their wallets. It's just not something I could get my brain to do. But I'll check out the Trash Humpers and see.


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## WordSaladTongs (Oct 14, 2013)

humblenations said:


> Bill Gates has the right idea. Getting rid of diseases.
> 
> Getting rid of major diseases = stopping infant mortality = people having less children (because a good percentage die) = less poverty + better management of the resources


And THEN the sexy times.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

tkkenyon said:


> ::Clears throat and peers at the KB TOS and family-friendly policy.::
> 
> It doesn't work. Equal and opposite reaction.
> 
> ...


Billionaire virgins in space and the part that strains your credulity is the _science?_


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

This thread has made me consistently LOL!!!! You guys are HILARIOUS!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

scslawin said:


> And to satisfy Rule 34:


I love the concept that one can be cuckolded into chastity. Doesn't that kind of go hand in hand with the whole cuck fetish, or...? I haven't listened to Savage Love in a few weeks, so I may be getting the fine print of the various fetishes all confused.

But yay for lesbian billionaires!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> All I can say is thank goodness we don't all need secret dungeons to get it on.


And all I can say is, thank goodness some of us do.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

tkkenyon said:


> ::Clears throat and peers at the KB TOS and family-friendly policy.::
> 
> It doesn't work. Equal and opposite reaction.
> 
> ...


Barbara Elsborg has a hysterical take on sex in space in Lucy in the Sky. I don't want to give any spoilers in case someone's planning to read it, but it's a gem.


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## WordSaladTongs (Oct 14, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> Barbara Elsborg has a hysterical take on sex in space in Lucy in the Sky. I don't want to give any spoilers in case someone's planning to read it, but it's a gem.


THAT'S NOT COOL BECAUSE SPACE IS FOR SERIOUS ADULTS NOT WEIRD KINKSTERS.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Billionaire virgins in space and the part that strains your credulity is the _science?_


Being as viril as I am, I'd be afraid of shooting across the capsule at climax like a giant untied balloon or fire hose and knocking myself out against the far wall.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Being as viril as I am, I'd be afraid of shooting across the capsule at climax like a giant untied balloon or fire hose and knocking myself out against the far wall.


I can only imagine what the OP thinks of your filthy mind. Have you no shame?


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

WordSaladTongs said:


> THAT'S NOT COOL BECAUSE SPACE IS FOR SERIOUS ADULTS NOT WEIRD KINKSTERS.


Hahahah!

I guarantee everybody, the first space tourism is going to be nothing but a souped-up version of the Mile High Club. I'd pay to do it! (IIIINNNN SPAAAAACE!!) Even if it requires bungee cords.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Wait, I was going to talk about the tropical island I'd buy inhabited by only me and a tribe of nubile native women, and this has now turned into space? You people suck.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

blakebooks said:


> You people suck.


Yes, but only if circumstances dictate.


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## WordSaladTongs (Oct 14, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> Yes, but only if circumstances dictate.


Only if circumcision d*cktakes. Lololololololololol.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> Wait, I was going to talk about the tropical island I'd buy inhabited by only me and a tribe of nubile native women, and this has now turned into space? You people suck.


Good luck delivering all those babies . . .


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> Good luck delivering all those babies . . .


Good point. He'd better stick to Japanese sex robots.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Um, folks...

Trying to let the party go on but the innuendo is getting a bit much...  Just sayin'.  Take it down a notch, please.  

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Wow, that's like collecting the booze and weed at the frat party, and telling everyone to have a good time.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> If anything, I'd want a partner who shared my vision for accomplishing greatness--anyone else would bore me into a stupor.


You seem to be under the delusion that the uber-wealthy are well-rounded, emotionally stable, humanitarians interested in world peace and harmony. I am unsure where you got this idea.  

In reality, the more wealth a person has, the less of that wealth as a percentage of income is donated to charity. And when the rich DO donate to charity, they are normally private trusts in which much of the "donations" sit in escrow or are eaten up by administrative fees and the charities directly benefit the wealthy themselves. Meg Whitman's charitable foundation donated over a million dollars to an "environmental group" that supported preserving open space. Which on the surface sounds laudable. But then you realize that the group in question benefited her directly because it's initiatives prevented the development of land that surrounded her own ranch. Basically, she was using the charitable trust to fund personal fights to keep developers away from her ranch. They buy art and then offer it for "permanent loan" to museums, and thus take a charitable tax deduction on the art while still owning it.

The truth is the wealthy often have slightly (and in some cases, not so slightly) sociopathic tendencies. They accumulate wealth, toys, and people like dragons hoard treasure. Not for the greater good of humanity, but simply because they can. This is why people making $10,000,000 a year can sit before Congress and, with a straight face, tell you that raising the minimum wage would lead to lower employment, because they can't fathom simply making $9,000,000 a year instead. This is why people will attend $5,000 a plate political functions to discuss how the "greedy" poor should be able to feed a family on $98 a week in food stamps. And the further removed the rich are from the actual creation of the wealth, the more sociopathic the rich become. Sam Walton's vision of his company is very different from what his heirs have done in terms of how they treat employees.

So yea, while I don't read it myself, billionaire erotica makes perfect sense to me. The idea of an emotional train wreck of a wealthy man who is incapable of functioning in a healthy relationship is perfectly believable. And we women have a habit of thinking we can "fix" men, so it also makes perfect sense that women would be attracted to these stories because that emotional train wreck of a man is more than a sex buddy, he's a PROJECT TO BE FIXED!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> Wow, that's like collecting the booze and weed at the frat party, and telling everyone to have a good time.


And your point is?


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The truth is the wealthy often have slightly (and in some cases, not so slightly) sociopathic tendencies.


Nah. I mean, yes, plenty of them probably do, but your comment isn't much different than a generalization about any other population. I'm guessing you'd find the same mix of people among billionaires as anywhere else.* Sure, some of them got to be so rich by being greedy and unethical, but plenty of poor people are poor because they're lazy and dull. That doesn't mean that it's helpful to say that poor people are that way because they're lazy and dull. And it's a lazy and dull writer who makes all his billionaires this way and his poor people that way.

_* With the caveat that I've never met a billionaire, but I'm guessing your own statistical sample is rather small as well. _


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Did somebody say booze and weed?

I'd take the line of our former president, and say I never inhaled or swallowed, but nobody would believe me.

And get your minds out of the gutter, people. Just stop it. Right now.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> And your point is?


No point. No point at all.

Hey, I can't seem to find the definition of the word "vixen", can anybody help me out?


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> No point. No point at all.
> 
> Hey, I can't seem to find the definition of the word "vixen", can anybody help me out?


A vixen is a female fox.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Quiss said:


> A vixen is a female fox.


What does the vixen say?


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> No point. No point at all.
> 
> Hey, I can't seem to find the definition of the word "vixen", can anybody help me out?


Foxy lady.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I will have you to know that mind is never in the gutter. 

As per billionaires, only met one and him and his wife were good people.   So were the few millionaires I knew.   Now as for sociopaths/psychopaths, it is my understanding that they usually come from the low end 6 figure incomes.  And sometimes the mid to high end 5 figure ranges.

Now Joe give back the booze and the weed and everything will be fine.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> I will have you to know that mind is never in the gutter.
> 
> As per billionaires, only met one and him and his wife were good people. So were the few millionaires I knew. Now as for sociopaths/psychopaths, it is my understanding that they usually come from the low end 6 figure incomes. And sometimes the mid to high end 5 figure ranges.
> 
> Now Joe give back the booze and the weed and everything will be fine.


I met B.F. Saul (Chevy Chase Bank mogul). He seemed like a nice guy. Quiet and reserved. But who knows what they're like behind closed doors.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> In reality, the more wealth a person has, the less of that wealth as a percentage of income is donated to charity. And when the rich DO donate to charity, they are normally private trusts in which much of the "donations" sit in escrow or are eaten up by administrative fees and the charities directly benefit the wealthy themselves.


That's why the guy I worked for is so inspiring - http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2012/09/18/chuck-feeney-the-billionaire-who-is-trying-to-go-broke/#

"Over the last 30 years he's crisscrossed the globe conducting a clandestine operation to give away a $7.5 billion fortune ... While the business world's titans obsess over piling up as many riches as possible, Feeney is working double time to die broke." - Both Bill Gates and Warren Buffet credit him with inspiring their charitable work.

He has actually insisted on anonymity in the past for his charitable donations and vetoed the idea of naming a building he'd funded after him.


----------



## Routhwick (Apr 1, 2012)

I'd donate to charity and the poor, make my book and miniseries quicker, pay all of my taxes, and give some of my earnings to my Dominican brethren. (The Commonwealth country, not the Republic in Hispaniola.)


----------



## Guest (Dec 6, 2013)

MichaelWallace said:


> _* With the caveat that I've never met a billionaire, but I'm guessing your own statistical sample is rather small as well. _


No billionaires. But in my time selling Kirby vacuums, I met plenty of millionaires. Which you might not think is an industry that would create a lot of millionaires, but you would be surprised. I would comfortably say that all of them had sociopath tendencies (two of them, I said so to their faces...one who tried to "pick me up" at an industry convention while his wife was home with their newborn* and another who helped his brother-in-law rope a bunch of people into an offshore tax haven that turned out to be an illegal pyramid scheme).

But in all seriousness, it isn't "my" statistical sample I'm referencing. There have actually been studies on the link between wealth and empathy. The Scientific American article is the only one I can reference off the top of my head, but the general research has shown that the further a person is from suffering, the less likely they are to be able to actually identify it. The percentage of sociopathic tendencies in the wealthy is, statistically, much higher than the percentage of "lazy and dull" among the poor (working poor, people with full time jobs but still at or below the poverty line, account for two thirds of those who get public assistance of some kind.)

In fact, your comparison of "lazy and dull" illustrates the disconnect. The sociopath (not calling you a sociopath, by the way) would say "well, get another job or a better job. It's a free market." But the realities on the ground are that there are no jobs that pay a living wage in the poor person's community. "Well, move where the jobs are!" But the poor have no reliable transportation and finding a place to live is hard if you don't already have money. "Well, get an education!" Which is all well and good, but education isn't free, and the good schools aren't located in inner cities, which means you need to travel to get an education.



Spoiler



*And no, there will be no "The Millionaire's Sith erotica published any time soon


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

This thread was fun for awhile.  Bring back the sexual innuendo...


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This thread was fun for awhile. Bring back the sexual innuendo...


You just want to play with your cattle prod.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> *And no, there will be no "The Millionaire's Sith erotica published any time soon


Were it not for the trademark issues, I think


Spoiler



millionaire Sith erotica


 would sell really well! "There can be only two, and one is the master."


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Gonna be honest here, I would be like a twelve year-old Caligula on E if I suddenly fell ass-first into a billion dollars. Every stupid idea I've ever had would become reality and common sense and responsibility would be banished to the land of wind and ghosts.

Plus, I'd spread the madness around. One of my first acts would be calling the Make a Wish Foundation and requesting their file marked 'Implausible'.


----------



## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

In honor of cattle prods, if I were a billionaire I would buy an island off the coast of Chile and build a large, rambling house (sort of a cross between Greek island-style architecture and log cabins and Buckingham Palace), but camouflaged into the island so it would be impossible to see by the naked human eye (I used the word "naked" there in honor of all the billionaire erotica books). I would construct an underwater submarine dock beneath the island, as well as a helipad built into the top of the mountain, complete with a camouflaged cover (i.e.., the top of the mountain would be on rail slides), suitable for helicopters, Harrier jets, etc. I would stock the island with dangerous animals (leopards, cape buffalo, black mambas, lawyers, etc) that are neurologically modified to protect me and my family with their last drop of blood. I would also hire several dozen ex-IDF special forces soldiers to guard the island, along with the Chilean Navy (which I would buy). I would surgically remove all construction memories from the brains of all the construction workers who worked on my island project. I would also renounce my US citizenship and become a Chilean-Swiss citizen (after purchasing both countries). Also, I would hire Thomas Keller and Masaharo Morimoto to be my private chefs, swapping every other week.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I'd buy a pony.


----------



## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'd hire a nanny.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

No one is going to confess to building a BDSM dungeon with their billions?


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I'd go into Detroit and buy up neighborhoods of houses. I'd renovate those that I could then rebuild new homes on empty lots. I'd probably relinquish claim back to the original owners or to individuals hoping to rebuild the city.

I wouldn't be a billionaire for long, that's for sure.


----------



## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Monique said:


>


This is the first thing that's made me laugh all day. Thank you!


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Deanna Chase said:


> No one is going to confess to building a BDSM dungeon with their billions?


Not my bag, but I can assure you that I will have a professional costume and set design staff on site, just off the master bedroom.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Can't believe I'm the first in this thread to post this...


----------



## Bilinda Ní Siodacaín (Jun 16, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:
 

> No one is going to confess to building a BDSM dungeon with their billions?


Nah already have that.


----------



## Guest (Dec 6, 2013)

Deanna Chase said:


> No one is going to confess to building a BDSM dungeon with their billions?


You don't need billions. You can build a decent one for around $500...from what I've heard, anyway...


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You don't need billions. You can build a decent one for around $500...from what I've heard, anyway...


Oh gee. That won't even cover the... Oh, umm, better keep that to myself.


----------



## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Ahem.

http://www.dungeonbuilder.co.uk/


----------



## Kassidia (Sep 14, 2012)

I think it's just another variation of the Alpha Male syndrome.

"Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac." - Henry Kissinger

Sometimes power runs country and companies, sometimes it's a knuckle-dragger in an expensive suite and his own plane.   

(and if I was the one with all the dough, I want a super villain lair...with an underwater entrance and an active volcano.)


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Christopher Bunn said:


> In honor of cattle prods, if I were a billionaire I would buy an island off the coast of Chile and build a large, rambling house (sort of a cross between Greek island-style architecture and log cabins and Buckingham Palace), but camouflaged into the island so it would be impossible to see by the naked human eye (I used the word "naked" there in honor of all the billionaire erotica books). I would construct an underwater submarine dock beneath the island, as well as a helipad built into the top of the mountain, complete with a camouflaged cover (i.e.., the top of the mountain would be on rail slides), suitable for helicopters, Harrier jets, etc. I would stock the island with dangerous animals (leopards, cape buffalo, black mambas, lawyers, etc) that are neurologically modified to protect me and my family with their last drop of blood. I would also hire several dozen ex-IDF special forces soldiers to guard the island, along with the Chilean Navy (which I would buy). I would surgically remove all construction memories from the brains of all the construction workers who worked on my island project. I would also renounce my US citizenship and become a Chilean-Swiss citizen (after purchasing both countries). Also, I would hire Thomas Keller and Masaharo Morimoto to be my private chefs, swapping every other week.


You can't surgically remove just memory. Seriously, let's keep things somewhat realistic.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

If I were a billionaire, I would build a dungeon, hire former Israeli commandos to kidnap Joe Vasicek, chain him in the dungeon, and force him to write billionaire erotica for KDP.


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> If I were a billionaire, I would build a dungeon, hire former Israeli commandos to kidnap Joe Vasicek, chain him in the dungeon, and force him to write billionaire erotica for KDP.


Time to do a Kickstarter!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Michael, Dalya....

sigh....

Betsy


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

> "Billionaire"
> (feat. Bruno Mars)
> 
> [Bruno Mars]
> ...


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Michael, Dalya....
> 
> sigh....
> 
> Betsy


Tell me you read Dalya's Kickstarter comment without a donkey snort and I'll promise to behave.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

MichaelWallace said:


> Tell me you read Dalya's Kickstarter comment without a donkey snort and I'll promise to behave.


I read both Dalya's and your prior comment without a donkey snort.

Your turn.

Betsy


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I read both Dalya's and your prior comment without a donkey snort.
> 
> Your turn.
> 
> Betsy


Sorry, I'll be a very good boy.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Sorry, I'll be a very good boy.


THAT gave me a donkey snort.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

You know, you don't need a lot of money to build a very nice, function BDSM dungeon/room.


----------



## Emma Clark (Dec 6, 2013)

EelKat said:


> I mean, seriously, are there that many women out there who'd rather have a stuck-up, snobby, woman beating playboy, rather than a kind, loving, kitten and puppy rescuing guy who'll protect his wife and kids?


Probably not, but lots of 'em enjoy those bad boys in their reading material.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Sorry, I'll be a very good boy.


Someone's not wearing any pants.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> Someone's not wearing any pants.


Must . . . be . . . good.


----------



## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Trinity Night said:


> Maybe I'd write a billionaire vampire.


I wrote a billionaire vampire. I wanted to get in on the billionaire erotic genre, but I only write paranormal, so I wrote The Vampire Affair, with billionaire vampire Ethan Devane. And I wrote The 
Vampire Design, with billionaire vampire Xavier who is also a reclusive but coveted painter.


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

If I were a billionaire, I'd roof for fun.

And ask if I could go repair that leak in the Taj Mahal that bothers the heck out of me when I go visit. 

Now I'm off to write a Billionaire SEALs story.


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Gennita Low said:


> If I were a billionaire, I'd roof for fun.


Even if it's a billion degrees up there and the neighbor has a swimming pool?

So now I have a problem. I just had the most AWESOMEST idea for a time travel romance pop into my head. WTH? 
This is what happens when I try to think while down with the flu. My brain skips genres.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Quiss said:


> Even if it's a billion degrees up there and the neighbor has a swimming pool?
> 
> So now I have a problem. I just had the most AWESOMEST idea for a time travel romance pop into my head. WTH?
> This is what happens when I try to think while down with the flu. My brain skips genres.


lmao

The only thing I'd change if I was a billionaire is that I'd have a couple maids clean the place, and the dogs would get steak on Friday instead of London broil.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> I'd have a really hard time writing a comedy about the homeless. I'm not gonna judge someone who can write something like that, because I think if it's done right it could make them sympathetic enough to get some people to crack open their wallets. It's just not something I could get my brain to do. But I'll check out the Trash Humpers and see.


Tortilla Flat 
Cannery Row

Not sure it would fall under comedy, but there sure was some funny stuff.



> This is why people making $10,000,000 a year can sit before Congress and, with a straight face, tell you that raising the minimum wage would lead to lower employment, because they can't fathom simply making $9,000,000 a year instead.


I can say it with a straight face and I don't make $10,000,000 per year.



> The truth is the wealthy often have slightly (and in some cases, not so slightly) sociopathic tendencies. They accumulate wealth, toys, and people like dragons hoard treasure. Not for the greater good of humanity, but simply because they can.


Show of hands? Who here has written their books for the greater good of humanity?


----------



## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

If I were a billionaire, I'd buy all your books.


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Quiss said:


> Even if it's a billion degrees up there and the neighbor has a swimming pool?


What can I say, I'm a hot chica .

And yeah, I'd go home after work to swim in my Olympic size swimming pool. With my pet dolphins, yeah. While my cabana boys wait by the poolside with yummies, that's the ticket.

Sigh. Going back to write that billionaire SEAL book some more....


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

This reminds me of when I used to go look at model homes for fun, when I lived in Las Vegas. (Sorry, the entertainment options were limited. I was in business school and had two little kids.) And sigh and think, that [interesting feature] would be cool to have.

Then one day I got home and realized that the sum of my cool-house ambitions was something like--having a real study. So I took out the closet doors in the downstairs bedroom, put my desk in the nook, installed some shelves above it, and made a real study for a couple hundred dollars.

Ambition achieved. I'm not sure what the heck I would do with a billion dollars.

I already bought a real desk this year. That took me weeks of agonizing. But now I have a desk. And a study. Darn it, what the HECK am I going to do with my billion dollars? I'm going to have to feed the hungry or something!

(Actually, the coolest thing in the WORLD is that I've finally found the thing I love to do more than anything in the world--write books--and that I get to do it. Sorry to get all sincere here, but it's true. Still can't believe it. Benefits of not finding out what you want to be when you grow up till you're 50--you appreciate it once you do.)


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

In this thread:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,169600.0.html

There is a link to an interesting article about the oldest romance writer (she just died at 105). Nine decades of writing, over 100 books published, and part of her advice for writing in the genre...



> The men are normally rich, well-to-do


Just giving the people what they want. It doesn't get much better than that.


----------



## Thisiswhywecan&#039;thavenicethings (May 3, 2013)

> What does the vixen say?


Bling Bling Bling Gabling Gabling Bling


----------



## portlandrocks (Jul 18, 2013)

If I were a billionaire I would probably just keep working. 

When I first started copywriting I had a certain financial goal for myself and my family. I thought when I met that goal I would feel that I had "made it" and that it would be this great moment in time. 

Turns out it was a non-event. 

Don't get me wrong... I am by no means a billionaire - but growing up in "The Square" in north Phoenix, I had funny ideas about money and what it meant to have it versus not having it. 

Now that I have a little, I realize that being craft excellence is so much more important than I ever imagined money would be. 

For me, at this point in my life, I think the more interesting question would be, "What would you do if you actually did write the great American novel and influenced an entire generation with your words during your own lifetime?(Think: JD Salinger)"


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

IRL, billionaires do ask you to sign a non-disclosure agreement.
I'd tell you more, but...ah, uhm. Yeah.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

ebbrown said:


> IRL, billionaires do ask you to sign a non-disclosure agreement.
> I'd tell you more, but...ah, uhm. Yeah.


Check page 3, clause J. You're not supposed to even mention that there _is _a non-disclosure.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Show of hands? Who here has written their books for the greater good of humanity?


If by "humanity" you mean "me," then I shall raise my hand, sir.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Trinity Night said:


> If I were a billionaire, I'd buy all your books.


That may be the coolest post EVER.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

ElHawk said:


> If by "humanity" you mean "me," then I shall raise my hand, sir.


God Bless kindred spirits, for they know themselves. I confess. When I write for the good of humanity, I tend to define it in a similar way.


----------



## Nebula (May 29, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You seem to be under the delusion that the uber-wealthy are well-rounded, emotionally stable, humanitarians interested in world peace and harmony. I am unsure where you got this idea.
> 
> In reality, the more wealth a person has, the less of that wealth as a percentage of income is donated to charity.


I think the above is an unfair generalization. I've worked for a billionaire before, and many of the people I worked with, who liked to complain about how much of an [expletive] he was, were bigger/worse [expletive], and they weren't billionaires. The billionaire in question was always ready to offer time and advice if you asked for it, but what most people wanted was handouts.



> The truth is the wealthy often have slightly (and in some cases, not so slightly) sociopathic tendencies. They accumulate wealth, toys, and people like dragons hoard treasure. Not for the greater good of humanity, but simply because they can.


How many things do you do for the greater good of humanity? I dont wake up every morning thinking of the greater good of anything other than myself, my family, and my loved ones etc.... so why should we expect it from someone else just because he/she is rich?

IMO, thinking of how other people should spend their money doesn't count as 'doing something for the greater good of humanity'



> This is why people making $10,000,000 a year can sit before Congress and, with a straight face, tell you that raising the minimum wage would lead to lower employment, because they can't fathom simply making $9,000,000 a year instead.


This because, the actual fact is, if employers have to increase wages, they will increase prices to offset the cost, which will increase prices all around, this is called inflation, and is usually the effect of any minimum wage increase.



> But in all seriousness, it isn't "my" statistical sample I'm referencing. There have actually been studies on the link between wealth and empathy. The Scientific American article is the only one I can reference off the top of my head, but the general research has shown that the further a person is from suffering, the less likely they are to be able to actually identify it.


I would think that the results would be the same for any study on the links between achievement and empathy. The more you achieve, the less patient you get about people who complain about why they can't achieve anything. If you worked a full time job and still managed to write a good book, and followed it up with book after book until you finally got to the point where your books were selling steadily, how much empathy would you feel for someone who keeps complaining about how they want to be a successful writer but don't have enough time (when they work the same hours you used to)? How much empathy could you generate for someone who wouldn't take the time to edit their work, get passable covers, or make any real effort at all?


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

MichaelWallace said:


> Check page 3, clause J. You're not supposed to even mention that there _is _a non-disclosure.


You're right. Damn, I did some questionable stuff when I was young. I should write a book about it or something. Wish I didn't shred the contract. I can't require if it required silence for the rest of my life, or a set period of time.
Note to self: don't shred legal documents when angry.


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

SerenityG said:


> ...
> I would think that the results would be the same for any study on the links between achievement and empathy. The more you achieve, the less patient you get about people who complain about why they can't achieve anything. If you worked a full time job and still managed to write a good book, and followed it up with book after book until you finally got to the point where your books were selling steadily, how much empathy would you feel for someone who keeps complaining about how they want to be a successful writer but don't have enough time (when they work the same hours you used to)? How much empathy could you generate for someone who wouldn't take the time to edit their work, get passable covers, or make any real effort at all?


That's an excellent point! I know some people who can't even make it to step 1, as much as they'd like to be at the top. I'm afraid I'm not very encouraging to people who show little initiative, because I've seen how difficult it is.

However, if they're throwing a pity party over whatever I've finished, I like to point out the guitar I own. It's a lovely guitar. I've always wanted to learn to play. But I haven't. I'm not some superperson who does everything they want, I just happened to do this one thing. Apparently playing guitar is NOT one of my things!


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

SerenityG said:


> The more you achieve, the less patient you get about people who complain about why they can't achieve anything. If you worked a full time job and still managed to write a good book, and followed it up with book after book until you finally got to the point where your books were selling steadily, how much empathy would you feel for someone who keeps complaining about how they want to be a successful writer but don't have enough time (when they work the same hours you used to)? How much empathy could you generate for someone who wouldn't take the time to edit their work, get passable covers, or make any real effort at all?


The point here would probably be to acknowledge that few billionaires achieved their billions just by work.

It might be interesting to see what would happen without (in no particular order) no income from financial assets, in fact no interest and compound interest at all, no tax evasion, taxation fully according to financial ability, no lobbyism, an unconditional basic income for everyone, products priced according to their ecobalance, no stocks and no stock exchange, money which steadily self-depreciates after being out of circulation, inability to buy immovable properties for longer than the personal lifetime, no inheritance of same. For starters.

I'd suppose billionaire erotica would fast loose ground after that.

As to the currently written billionaire erotica, the authors commonly get it wrong. The shoe very often is on the other foot.


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Nic said:


> ...
> As to the currently written billionaire erotica, the authors commonly get it wrong. The shoe very often is on the other foot.


If I were to teach a workshop about everything I know about popular fiction, it would be called Zero Points for Realism.


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> If I were to teach a workshop about everything I know about popular fiction, it would be called Zero Points for Realism.


I suppose submissive or masochistic billionaires wouldn't exactly hit the expectations of the average female reader


----------



## Nebula (May 29, 2013)

Nic said:


> The point here would probably be to acknowledge that few billionaires achieved their billions just by work.
> 
> It might be interesting to see what would happen without (in no particular order) no income from financial assets, in fact no interest and compound interest at all, no tax evasion, taxation fully according to financial ability, no lobbyism, an unconditional basic income for everyone, products priced according to their ecobalance, no stocks and no stock exchange, money which steadily self-depreciates after being out of circulation, inability to buy immovable properties for longer than the personal lifetime, no inheritance of same. For starters.
> 
> ...


Ummmm.

I'd like to invest the money I earn from writing. I'd like to pay less tax on my investments seeing as I've already been taxed for the initial earnings, I don't want my money to depreciate  , and I want to be able to leave something for my children and grandchildren, even if it's just one immovable property. I want all that and I'm not even a billionaire.

Am I a bad, poor people hating person? I dont think so, since right now I'm just another one of the ordinary 97%



Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> That's an excellent point! I know some people who can't even make it to step 1, as much as they'd like to be at the top. I'm afraid I'm not very encouraging to people who show little initiative, because I've seen how difficult it is.
> 
> However, if they're throwing a pity party over whatever I've finished, I like to point out the guitar I own. It's a lovely guitar. I've always wanted to learn to play. But I haven't. I'm not some superperson who does everything they want, I just happened to do this one thing. Apparently playing guitar is NOT one of my things!


@Mimi.... ... I remain a fangirl.. especially of your billionaire erotica.


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

SerenityG said:


> ...
> @Mimi.... ... I remain a fangirl.. especially of your billionaire erotica.


This thread has jumped the shark, then! LOL. Thank you. I really had a lot of fun with the first forays into billionaire smut. I've started taking myself a bit too seriously since then, and I need to get wild again.


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

SerenityG said:


> Am I a bad, poor people hating person? I dont think so, since right now I'm just another one of the ordinary 97%


No, not a bad person. Just not really well-educated regarding the effects of this system and egocentric. Which means you're quite the average, or if you prefer, you're belonging to the majority. Which is why we currently aren't exactly a very civilised species.


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

What I'm talking about is by the way this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWSxzjyMNpU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

You're just too enlightened for the rest of us.

Now, let me go get a cup of cheap coffee and rejoin the the uncivilized working stiffs.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> That's an excellent point! I know some people who can't even make it to step 1, as much as they'd like to be at the top. I'm afraid I'm not very encouraging to people who show little initiative, because I've seen how difficult it is.
> 
> However, if they're throwing a pity party over whatever I've finished, I like to point out the guitar I own. It's a lovely guitar. I've always wanted to learn to play. But I haven't. I'm not some superperson who does everything they want, I just happened to do this one thing. Apparently playing guitar is NOT one of my things!


That is harsh, man. Heartless. Cut me to the bone. I hope Santa brings you a lump of coal.


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> If I were to teach a workshop about everything I know about popular fiction, it would be called Zero Points for Realism.


If realism was a requirement those of us in spec fiction would be in serious trouble.

And can someone PULEEEZE clear me up on the grammar, once and for all:

If it were a requirement
If it was a requirement

Where am I getting that "were" from?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

"Were" is fine since it's a simple imperfect subjunctive...I think.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> If I were to teach a workshop about everything I know about popular fiction, it would be called Zero Points for Realism.


Mimi totally wins this part of the discussion 

And it can be painfully hilarious when you make a certain scene VERY realistic, research your ass off or you already are a professional in the topic covered and some one-star review says the scene was unrealistic because, you know, either it wasn't done that way on Law & Order or they once passed a hospital or a courtroom or their tour guide pointed out the Mauna Kea Observatories as they drove to the nude beach...


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> t might be interesting to see what would happen without (in no particular order) no income from financial assets, in fact no interest and compound interest at all, no tax evasion, taxation fully according to financial ability, no lobbyism, an unconditional basic income for everyone, products priced according to their ecobalance, no stocks and no stock exchange, money which steadily self-depreciates after being out of circulation, inability to buy immovable properties for longer than the personal lifetime, no inheritance of same. For starters.


If that was the case, then there would be no Amazon, no opportunity for independent authors to have their work on KDP, no eBooks, no eReaders, no publishers, no incentive, and probable constant war to get rid of the destructive system that could only be enforced with guns.

More advanced places in the world would adopt the system that had brought more prosperity to more people than any other system in history. They would then leave everyone else in the dust until the rest of the world decided to choose prosperity over a feel-good ideology that had proven over and over it was a dismal failure.

God Bless the capitalists, for they rebuke envy.

Aint this a great country?


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2013)

This is why I prefer speculative fiction, actually. In my experience, stories that take place in the real world tend to have very unrealistic and over-the-top characters, because they're already grounded in the real world. The writers are more prone to lazy characterization because they figure they can get away with it. In speculative fiction, though, the world is so far removed from reality that the only way to ground readers and keep their suspension of disbelief is to make the characters as well developed and believable as possible. There are exceptions, of course, and writers on both sides who fail totally, but as a reader that's been my experience. I've never felt closer to a fictional character than while reading _The Dispossessed_ by Ursula K. Le Guin.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> This is why I prefer speculative fiction, actually. In my experience, stories that take place in the real world tend to have very unrealistic and over-the-top characters, because they're already grounded in the real world. The writers are more prone to lazy characterization because they figure they can get away with it. In speculative fiction, though, the world is so far removed from reality that the only way to ground readers and keep their suspension of disbelief is to make the characters as well developed and believable as possible. There are exceptions, of course, and writers on both sides who fail totally, but as a reader that's been my experience. I've never felt closer to a fictional character than while reading _The Dispossessed_ by Ursula K. Le Guin.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. I admire the rare person who can express their likes without disparaging the likes of others.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> This is why I prefer speculative fiction, actually. In my experience, stories that take place in the real world tend to have very unrealistic and over-the-top characters, because they're already grounded in the real world. The writers are more prone to lazy characterization because they figure they can get away with it. In speculative fiction, though, the world is so far removed from reality that the only way to ground readers and keep their suspension of disbelief is to make the characters as well developed and believable as possible. There are exceptions, of course, and writers on both sides who fail totally, but as a reader that's been my experience. I've never felt closer to a fictional character than while reading _The Dispossessed_ by Ursula K. Le Guin.


Careful, Joe. They'll be accusing you disrespecting mainstream. 

p.s. Le Guin is AWESOME! You know, I didn't read any of her stuff until I was in my forties. I didn't think I could relate to a fantasy book written by a woman. Talk about someone who deserves a kick in the...


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2013)

DianaGabriel said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. I admire the rare person who can express their likes without disparaging the likes of others.


Like I said, there are exceptions (such as Robert Ludlum, who is very good at character from what I've read of him). I'm not trying to disparage any writer or genre in particular, or any particular readers for that matter, but point out a general trend that explains my own reading preferences.



vrabinec said:


> p.s. Le Guin is AWESOME! You know, I didn't read any of her stuff until I was in my forties. I didn't think I could relate to a fantasy book written by a woman. Talk about someone who deserves a kick in the...


I know! Everything I've read from her is absolutely AMAZING! Now there is a writer who understands how people work.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> The writers are more prone to lazy characterization because they figure they can get away with it.


How do we know what they figure? How is that determined? How do we determine the mental state of the writer?

Likewise, how do we determine speculative fiction writers are prone to greater industry and have a superior work ethic? How do we know they are not slackers, too?

Show of hands? Who here is a lazy slacker?


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Show of hands? Who here is a lazy slacker?


me!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

beccaprice said:


> me!


God Bless honesty. Me, too. Any speculative fiction writers here who are lazy slackers? Is it even possible?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I'd make my family move with me back to Scotland (bribery being a good family trait) and put a couple of million £s into a political struggle that I won't mention by name. 

And I'd write at the pace that I want to instead of at the pace that makes a living, being another lazy slacker.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Quiss said:


> If realism was a requirement those of us in spec fiction would be in serious trouble.
> 
> And can someone PULEEEZE clear me up on the grammar, once and for all:
> 
> ...


"Were" is used when you are stating something that isn't a fact as shown by the "if" conditional. I'd find the rule in CMoS but I'm feeling way too much like a slacker at the moment.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Who doesn't want to be Tony Stark?


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> How do we know what they figure? How is that determined? How do we determine the mental state of the writer?
> 
> Likewise, how do we determine speculative fiction writers are prone to greater industry and have a superior work ethic? How do we know they are not slackers, too?
> 
> Show of hands? Who here is a lazy slacker?


How do we know if the characterization in a book is sloppy? By reading it. 

As a reader, I could care less about the effort someone put into writing a book. I just care about the result.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2013)

Harper Alibeck said:


> So you basically want to be Tony Stark, minus the great sex.
> 
> Ok, then.


I never said I want to be a billionaire. Frankly, it seems like my idea of a nightmare. I'd rather own my money, not have my money own me.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

No.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> As a reader, I could care less about the effort someone put into writing a book. I just care about the result.


"Could _not_ care less"
Slacker.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> How do we know if the characterization in a book is sloppy? By reading it.
> 
> As a reader, I could care less about the effort someone put into writing a book. I just care about the result.


The result is all we have. So how do we know the mental state of the writer?

You told us,

_The writers are more prone to lazy characterization because they figure they can get away with it. _

How do you know what they figure? How do you know they figure they can get away with it? How do we make that determination? How does the figuring of authors who set their books in the real world differ from the figuring of authors who set theirs in a speculative world?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I never said I want to be a billionaire. Frankly, it seems like my idea of a nightmare. I'd rather own my money, not have my money own me.


Well, if you ever become a billionaire, give it to me. I'll enjoy it. I don't know who I was above that said the rich give a smaller percentage of their income to charity. That's misleading. The rich own companies that give enormous sums to the charity of their choice, but it doesn't show up on their taxes, because it comes off the company balance sheets instead of their taxes. Guys like Soros, Gates, and the Koch brothers have their companies donate. Cynics will say they do it for tax breaks, and tax breaks are a benefit, but they would personally make more money if they took that money as income. Their personal bank account would grow. But using Soros as an example, he builds entire communities for the indigent. They funnel their money to the places THEY want it to go, rather than paying it in taxes and allowing the government to decide what to do with it, such as cronyism. There are neighborhoods in Baltimore I'd love to prop up with a billion here or a billion there. I see these people every day, and seeing them makes it personal for me. Yeah, I wouldn't mind being a billionaire at all. Not to mention that I wouldn't have to read billionaire porn, I could just hire live acts that got me off.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Apple doesn't donate to anything. Nothing. Zero. But Id say they have enhanced the lives of hundreds of millions of people. Doing their job well is far more beneficial to humanity than donating money to someone. 

The folks who express their creativity in building organizations, companies, products, and processes are extremely beneficial to humanity. As we read this stuff, we are all experiencing that benefit.

Bill Gates put billions into the Gates Foundation. Buffet said he couldn't do it better, so he threw billions more into it. It is the largest charitable foundation on earth. Nothing else comes close. Its a real stretch to label that as sociopathic.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Personally, I've never met a billionaire I didn't like. There's something quite endearing about all that sociopathy...  Perhaps it's the color green.  

As to the power in the billionaire hook? This thread shows no sign of stopping. I think it should be renamed Comedy central...


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Harper Alibeck said:


> So you basically want to be Tony Stark, minus the great sex.


Careful about the "great sex" comment.

http://www.examiner.com/article/gwyneth-paltrow-the-latest-female-celebrity-rumored-to-have-body-odor-problem

http://www.celebitchy.com/301091/star_gwyneth_paltrow_has_gone_from_pretentious_to_unbearable_everyone_hates_her/

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/7-reasons-why-people-hate-gwyneth-paltrow

https://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Hate-Gwyneth-Paltrow/133351893387233

I feel bad for Robert Downey Jr., that's all I'm saying...


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Apple doesn't donate to anything. Nothing. Zero. But Id say they have enhanced the lives of hundreds of millions of people. Doing their job well is far more beneficial to humanity than donating money to someone.
> 
> The folks who express their creativity in building organizations, companies, products, and processes are extremely beneficial to humanity. As we read this stuff, we are all experiencing that benefit.
> 
> Bill Gates put billions into the Gates Foundation. Buffet said he couldn't do it better, so he threw billions more into it. It is the largest charitable foundation on earth. Nothing else comes close. Its a real stretch to label that as sociopathic.


Seriously, Terrence, do you really believe that Apple's apparent indifference to anything but profit "is far more beneficial to humanity" than the billiions that you just admitted Gates and Buffet have donated to humanitarian causes?

Really?


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Seriously, Terrence, do you really believe that Apple's apparent indifference to anything but profit "is far more beneficial to humanity" than the billiions that you just admitted Gates and Buffet have donated to humanitarian causes?
> 
> Really?


Terrance, I think you're coming down from an Ayn Rand high.  I agree with the principle of capitalism and most all things entrepreneurial (I exclude meth labs...). But Apple's record of giving is sad and rather Scrooge-like.

And, yes, it's a great country, yours and mine.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Seriously, Terrence, do you really believe that Apple's apparent indifference to anything but profit "is far more beneficial to humanity" than the billiions that you just admitted Gates and Buffet have donated to humanitarian causes?
> 
> Really?


No. Indifference does not benefit humanity. But the products, processes, and systems Apple has produced do provide great benefit.

I don't know how to compare the relative value of Apple's contribution vs the Gates Foundation since I don't know how to compute the present value of Apple's contribution.

To date I'd say Apple is in the lead since the Gates money hasn't been fully mobilized for humanity.

But the two organizations do provide good examples of how different approaches can both yield significant benefits.

And neither can rationally be classed as sociopathic.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

EC Sheedy said:


> Terrance, I think you're coming down from an Ayn Rand high.  I agree with the principle of capitalism and most all things entrepreneurial (I exclude meth labs...). But Apple's record of giving is sad and rather Scrooge-like.
> 
> And, yes, it's a great country, yours and mine.


Ayn Rand? Ill speak for myself, and defend my own positions.

Apple's record is zero. However, by doing what it does very well, it has done great good for humanity. The mindset of the giver doesn't matter. Only the results to the beneficiary matter.

God Bless those who accomplish good, for they have rebuked those who just talk about it.

Sing it our, Brothers and Sisters... Ain't this a great country?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> No. Indifference does not benefit humanity. But the products, processes, and systems Apple has produced do provide great benefit.
> 
> I don't know how to compare the relative value of Apple's contribution vs the Gates Foundation since I don't know how to compute the present value of Apple's contribution.
> 
> ...


Good products certainly benefit humanity and with maybe a few exceptions (not unique to Apple, let me say), I certainly do not think that successful business equates to sociopathy.

I don't agree about your point about Apple being in the lead. The Gates money will never be "fully mobilised" since it will be used over a very long term, but the good that has been done with, for example, their very large donations to HIV research and the global fight against AIDS which has saved lives and reduced suffering, as well as a large number of other donations such as the Alliance for Financial Inclusion making savings accounts, insurance, and other financial services available to people living on less than $2. Their work in education is outstanding. They will make it possible for others who wouldn't have the opportunity to take part in the financial system that you are advocating and puts them miles ahead.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Good products certainly benefit humanity and with maybe a few exceptions (not unique to Apple, let me say), I certainly do not think that successful business equates to sociopathy.
> 
> I don't agree about your point about Apple being in the lead. The Gates money will never be "fully mobilised" since it will be used over a very long term, but the good that has been done with, for example, their very large donations to HIV research and the global fight against AIDS which has saved lives and reduced suffering, as well as a large number of other donations such as the Alliance for Financial Inclusion making savings accounts, insurance, and other financial services available to people living on less than $2. Their work in education is outstanding. They will make it possible for others who wouldn't have the opportunity to take part in the financial system that you are advocating and puts them miles ahead.


I agree a well managed fund will never be totally mobilized. And I agree they have done great work. They simply haven't been doing it very long. They are smart enough to establish an efficient and effective infrastructure to deliver benefits. And their track record shows they are doing it very well.

But Im content to say either one is in the lead. I was simply responding to your statement that I initially ranked one over the other. Its difficult to measure.

However, in both cases I look at results rather than the mindset of he benefactor.

And how about that other billionaire, Bezos? Anyone here benefited from his business innovations?

God Bless all the enlightened souls who join in my financial system, for it is miles ahead of all others..


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Just thinking that Microsoft and Apple as corporations have both bestowed financial benefits hither, thither, and yon. Can't say which corporation wins that race. A tie maybe.

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, though, seemed to diverge philanthropically. And it appears from what you say, Terrance, that Tim Cook is carrying on in the SJ tradition. Fatten the Apple coffers first, last, and always. Their call. Certainly not mine to make.  

Here's to billionaires. May they live long and prosper.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

EC Sheedy said:


> Just thinking that Microsoft and Apple as corporations have both bestowed financial benefits hither, thither, and yon. Can't say which corporation wins that race. A tie maybe.
> 
> Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, though, seemed to diverge philanthropically. And it appears from what you say, Terrance, that Tim Cook is carrying on in the SJ tradition. Fatten the Apple coffers first, last, and always. Their call. Certainly not mine to make.
> 
> Here's to billionaires. May they live long and prosper.


I wouldn't say Apple and MS have bestowed financial benefits. They have given humanity products. People then use those products as they choose.

We also have to distinguish between MS and Gates. Gates donated a substantial part of his personal fortune. He didn't donate MS assets.

Im not sure how much money MS gives away, but Id say the benefit from their products dwarfs the benefit from their giving.

And Apples profits? They come from providing people what they want and what they value.

God Bless Gordon Gekko.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2013)

Just to clarify, unless you are a member of the Supreme Court, corporations are not people.   Corporations are neither sociopathic nor charitable, because they are not people. Telling me how awesome Apple's products have been for humanity doesn't actually negate anything insofar as wealth and sociopathic behavior. 

If I ever came into a lot of money (doesn't even need to be a billion, a few hundred thousand would suffice) I'd open a huge department store size bookstore/hobby shop and would stock ONLY indie books. You can buy mainstream books anywhere, after all. I'd position myself as the place to go to discover new authors. Every weekend would be a convention, and I'd invite people in to host workshops and panel discussions. And since I'm a gamer, there would also be a gaming area where people can run games. And it would have an in-house cafe and a playroom so people could drop off their kids and shop in peace.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Just to clarify, unless you are a member of the Supreme Court, corporations are not people. Tongue Corporations are neither sociopathic nor charitable, because they are not people. Telling me how awesome Apple's products have been for humanity doesn't actually negate anything insofar as wealth and sociopathic behavior.


Of course it does. People run corporations, and their decisions are reflected in its actions. Providing great benefit to humanity is not sociopathic behavior.

Five people getting together to help the homeless is charitable, but if those five incorporate, they are not charitable?

If a corporation that gives a million dollars to AIDS research is not charitable, can we also drop the notion that corporations are greedy, unfair, responsible, or incompetent? How about stupid, short-sighted, or backward? Does this mean we can't say the Big-5 are dummies? Say it aint so. (Think how this would severalty limit these threads.)

But how about Gates and Buffet? They gave billions to a foundation that benefits humanity. And they are people. Even the Supreme Court thinks they are people. Does that make them sociopaths?

And Bezos? Show of hands... Who here is prospering due to his creation of Kindle and KDP? Sociopath?


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Of course it does. People run corporations, and their decisions are reflected in its actions. Providing great benefit to humanity is not sociopathic behavior.
> 
> Five people getting together to help the homeless is charitable, but if those five incorporate, they are not charitable?
> 
> ...


First, I did not, at ANY time, say that all wealthy people were sociopaths. I said there is a tendency toward that behavior, and the tendency has been shown via research. If a person says "the people in Anytown, NJ tend to vote Democratic" telling me two people in the city voted Republican does not change the statistical tendency of the town in general to vote Democratic. The fact that the only two names most people can come up with are Gates and Buffett when we discuss charity is an indication of how rare people like Gates and Buffett are. The existence of such rare individuals does not negate the tendency of the whole.

Second, the ability of an entity to make _one demographic profitable_ does not mean a net gain for the whole of humanity. It is possible to get very profitable off of child pornography or drug dealing. Would you argue that since those areas make people rich, it is a benefit to humanity? After all, money generate from drugs and prostitution and child porn is then used to buy products and services that create jobs. Therefore these actions benefit humanity and the people that are hurt are just casualities of the greater good? You might make the greatest ebook reader on the planet and create thousands of jobs, but if in the process you are polluting the drinking water of fifteen states, are you benefiting humanity on the net with your actions?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> First, I did not, at ANY time, say that all wealthy people were sociopaths. I said there is a tendency toward that behavior, and the tendency has been shown via research.


I agree. You said, "_The truth is the wealthy often have slightly (and in some cases, not so slightly) sociopathic tendencies."_

What makes that true?



> The fact that the only two names most people can come up with are Gates and Buffett when we discuss charity is an indication of how rare people like Gates and Buffett are.


Popular knowledge demonstrates sociopathic tendencies of unknown people?



> The existence of such rare individuals does not negate the tendency of the whole.


Popular knowledge defines what is rare?



> Second, the ability of an entity to make _one demographic profitable_ does not mean a net gain for the whole of humanity.


I agree. But when the demographic is counted in the billions, it gets mighty close.



> It is possible to get very profitable off of child pornography or drug dealing. Would you argue that since those areas make people rich, it is a benefit to humanity?


No. I said the firms delivered products to humanity that enhanced the lives of billions. Why would anyone include kiddie porn in that?



> After all, money generate from drugs and prostitution and child porn is then used to buy products and services that create jobs. Therefore these actions benefit humanity and the people that are hurt are just casualities of the greater good?


That is a very odd notion and not something I support.



> You might make the greatest ebook reader on the planet and create thousands of jobs, but if in the process you are polluting the drinking water of fifteen states, are you benefiting humanity on the net with your actions?


I don't know. we would have to look at the net benefits and trade-offs. Those questions don't have standard answers.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Terrance said: I wouldn't say Apple and MS have bestowed financial benefits.

Isn't job creation a financial benefit? Or am I playing semantics with the words "create" and "bestow."

I think we should get back to fantasizing about billionaires and their deviant dungeons. Much more fun!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

EC Sheedy said:


> Terrance said: I wouldn't say Apple and MS have bestowed financial benefits.
> 
> Isn't job creation a financial benefit? Or am I playing semantics with the words "create" and "bestow."
> 
> I think we should get back to fantasizing about billionaires and their deviant dungeons. Much more fun!


Sure it is. The distinction I am making is between the products delivered to consumers and writing a check. And that is because Apple doesn't write those checks, but does deliver a huge benefit for humanity.

But the jobs, products, and purchases from suppliers? Sure. They are a great financial benefit.

And I confess. Until this thread, except for Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne, I didn't know about billionaire books.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Make a list of the wealthiest people in the world. Look at the corporations and entities they own. Look at the charitable foundations and entities they fund. All that money COULD have been claimed as an income disbursement. It would have been taxed, but all those billionaires would have have far more billions in their pockets. 

Sociopathy is a mental disorder. If they had those tendencies, they would not give any of that money up if they tried. And it's not just Gates and Soros. It's just about all of them. You can make the case that they are stingy and like money, but people who aren't,  never reach the position to give away that much money in the first place.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> No. I said the firms delivered products to humanity that enhanced the lives of billions. Why would anyone include kiddie porn in that?


Because the same firms that "deliver products to humanity" also employ slave labor and child labor in third-world countries. Apple's history of labor abuse is well documented (I'm sure you can employ a Google search just fine to locate the most recent issues.)

[quote author=EC Sheedy]I think we should get back to fantasizing about billionaires and their deviant dungeons. Much more fun![/quote]

Does it have to be a deviant dungeon? Couldn't it just be a gilded cage with fuzzy handcuffs?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Because the same firms that "deliver products to humanity" also employ slave labor and child labor in third-world countries. Apple's history of labor abuse is well documented (I'm sure you can employ a Google search just fine to locate the most recent issues.)
> 
> Does it have to be a deviant dungeon? Couldn't it just be a gilded cage with fuzzy handcuffs?


Anyone here use an iPhone, iPad, iMac, iPod? Does it enhance your life, or are you a victim of abuse? Did you freely choose to buy it, or was if forced on you by sociopaths?

When tech firms open plants in third world countries, thousands line up for hundreds of jobs. Perhaps they choose to live their own lives and make their own decisions. Perhaps they see opportunity that didn't exist before. They may even be following the same very successful path recently taken by Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore. Those countries rose from grinding poverty not because someone wrote them a check, but because they did a lot of hard work and took advantage of every opportunity.

Samsung now challenges Apple all over the world. Taiwan leads the world in motherboards and ASUS is a major player. Singapore is a regional trading center with incomes above the US. This would never have happened if they were foolish enough to listen to the folks who wanted to make them international welfare cases.

So now China is following the same path as Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore. And the Ethics Masters want to stop them. Fortunately for the Chinese, China isn't listening.

So who here uses a tech gadget made in China? Have you Googled? Have you seen the documentaries? This is all well documented.

Show of hands... Who here is a sociopath because you benefit from the products shipped from those countries? This is a system that depends on consumers. You are a consumer of those products. Without you, the system would fall. Are you a sociopath?

Im not.



> Sociopathy is a mental disorder. If they had those tendencies, they would not give any of that money up if they tried. And it's not just Gates and Soros. It's just about all of them. You can make the case that they are stingy and like money, but people who aren't, never reach the position to give away that much money in the first place.


Name-calling is an exercise to make the caller feel good.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm fairly sure the research has been on CEOs, not necessarily billionaires. I read a little about it in a book called The Psychopath Test, but its central premise was that labeling people is bad. (I mean, I'm oversimplifying. Fascinating book, very funny.)

That being said, there's nothing inherently wrong with being a sociopath. Lots of sociopaths don't really hurt anyone. There is a stigma attached to it that connotes violence and murder, but tons of sociopaths just go on their merry way playing people like pawns on a chess board and thinking of everyone else as weak and damaged because their stupid empathetic actions make them less effective at reaching goals.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I doubt I'd ever hang out with a sociopath since I bore quickly with people who insist on focusing discussion on themselves. But even if they are sociopathic, I'm not gonna begrudge them their self-centeredness. I prefer to worry about improving my own conditions and helping others improve theirs witbout worrying about what others aren't doing to help.


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## Book Master (May 3, 2013)

Help those less fortunate to take positive steps forward, and rest my weary soul for the remainder of the good years I have the health to just enjoy simple living. A nice warm tropical climate, beautiful scenery along with the bikini babes, good alcoholic drinks on ice and a dozen kindles so I could buy all of you guy's and gal's ebooks to read! 

BM


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> I doubt I'd ever hang out with a sociopath since I bore quickly with people who insist on focusing discussion on themselves. But even if they are sociopathic, I'm not gonna begrudge them their self-centeredness. I prefer to worry about improving my own conditions and helping others improve theirs witbout worrying about what others aren't doing to help.


I'm sorry to do this, but my wife holds a degree in clinical counseling and I can't just stand by as people abuse a word they don't understand.

Vrabinec, you (and others) are equating sociopathy with self-centered behavior and it's not quite the same thing.

Here's a dictionary definition of sociopath:



> so·ci·o·path
> ˈsōsēōˌpaTH
> noun
> 1.
> a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in _extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior_ and _a lack of conscience_.


What you are talking about is known clinically as narcissism or popularly as ego-centrism.

A sociopath can exhibit some symptoms and behaviors that seem like or mirror narcissism, but you can also have people who are sociopathic who do not exhibit narcissistic tendencies but are antisocial and without conscience in completely different ways.

Also, what's the point in saying, "I'd never hang out with a sociopath," hmm? Is there some sign-up list somewhere, and are there a lot of takers? Is there some significant demand for "hanging out with sociopaths" of which I am blissfully unaware?

That's like saying, "I doubt I'd ever want to tip a beer back with a serial killer." Structurally, the sentiment makes you sound discerning, but it's not like there's a flood of people begging for that opportunity, so it's actually saying nothing at all.


----------



## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

As a sociopath, I should be offended by all this, but I find myself ambivalent.

Oh.

Wait.

Never mind.


----------



## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Singapore is a regional trading center with incomes above the US.


Singapore was already a wealthy city state and major trade centre and not an international welfare case when I spent a few months there as a child thirty years ago, so it doesn't quite fit in. Ditto for Taiwan. I can't remember Taiwan ever being an international welfare case in my lifetime either.

As for all the gadgets made in exploitative factories in China or all the clothes sewn in equally exploitative factories in Bagladesh, you're right that it is difficult to impossible to avoid such products whether you buy Apple or another brand. This doesn't mean that I have to like those practices.

As for Apple, I have never in my life used a single of their products, dislike glorified media consumption devices like Smartphones and Tablets by any manufacturer and hate that they're being shoved down everybody's throat as the future of technology. Apple may have enhanced someone's life, but it sure hasn't enhanced mine. Okay, so I occasionally sell books in their store, which is nice.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I'm sorry to do this, but my wife holds a degree in clinical counseling and I can't just stand by as people abuse a word they don't understand.
> 
> Vrabinec, you (and others) are equating sociopathy with self-centered behavior and it's not quite the same thing.
> 
> ...


Err, it's been 30 years since I took abnormal psychology, but I think self-centeredness is a symptom of not having a conscience. And the self-centeredness is the part that applicable to here, since we're talking about altruism. Narcissism doesn't have anything to do with it. Like you say, there are plenty of sociopaths who hated themselves. A guy like Ted Bundy's pathology was born of insecurity, the rejection of the girls he wanted. The sociopathic aspect prevented him from feeling the pain of those he attacked. And that's the part we're talking about here. If you don't feel the pain of others, then is becomes all about satisfying your own desires, with no conscience to check that. In my case, if I was a sociopath, there would be lots of women I'd rape when I saw them on the street because I might be horny and it would make me feel good. The aim would be to make myself feel good. Hence, the sociopath becomes an unfettered version of Nietzsche's superman.

The point of saying I wouldn't hang out with a sociopath is to fend off any attackers who might decide to flame me for the sentence that followed in which I say that I don't begrudge them their self-centeredness. Meaning, I'm not condoning the behavior, and I think a free society has to allow its people to live for just themselves, if that's what they want to do, as long as they don't commit crimes in doing so. I don't want to live my life that way, but there's a segment of society that chooses to, and I'm not going to impose my conscience on them.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

OK, here's something fun...

Go take this test. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp

It will take you maybe 15 mins, and you should answer as your everyday, baseline self, not our writer self, forum persona, etc. This isn't the real MBTI, but it's close. While the MBTI has its detractors (every psychometric instrument does), the theory says the dynamics tested for are inborn.

Males tend to be Ts. Females tend to be Fs.

CEOs tend to be TJs, which partially accounts for why there are more male CEOs than female. Ergo, the billionaire is statistically likely to be a (male) TJ if he made the money himself.

In terms of BDSM, S-types tend to go for pure S&M, without the dom/sub aspects. So, whip me, beat me, but leave the head games out of it.

N-types get right into the D/s.

STJs tend to be sadist tops regardless of gender, though there will be more males than females just because of how gender loads on the T/F dyad.

NFPs are sweet little subbies when female. Male NFPs will top to please their partner, which kind of makes them sub, eh? NFJ males tend to be Doms (with Gorean preferences), while NFJ females are either bratty/fiesty subs or switches (see also: topping from the bottom). NTPs, whether male or female, tend to be low protocol dominants.

Foot-fetish males tend to be NFPs.

High protocol male Doms are almost exclusively INTJs.

The most dominant type is the INTJ. The least submissive (there's a difference) is the INTP.

iNtuitives as a whole are widely overrepresented in BDSM circles by a factor of about 5.

iNtuitives are also overrepresented among writers, which explains why there's so much kinky crossover in the writer population.

So if you take the test and post your four letters, I can tell you where you'd probably end up if you crossed paths with a billionaire BDSM dungeon.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Singapore was already a wealthy city state and major trade centre and not an international welfare case when I spent a few months there as a child thirty years ago, so it doesn't quite fit in. Ditto for Taiwan. I can't remember Taiwan ever being an international welfare case in my lifetime either.


I agree Singapore was doing very well in 1983. Lee Kuan Yew had done a great job by that time. South Korea and Taiwan were also well on their way to prosperity. But I'm not sure why 1983 the cutoff. These countries worked hard at low paying jobs and succeeded. They never were international welfare cases because they rejected the notion that they could not make their own vibrant economies.

In the fifties, Made In Japen was a joke that indicated poor quality and cheap goods. The same was true if the other Asian economies. Today nobody jokes about them. They did it themselves in a tough competitive market.



> As for all the gadgets made in exploitative factories in China or all the clothes sewn in equally exploitative factories in Bagladesh, you're right that it is difficult to impossible to avoid such products whether you buy Apple or another brand. This doesn't mean that I have to like those practices.


Fine with me. But I doubt using those gadgets makes you a sociopath. However, when we criticize large companies because we don't like what they do, it's instructive to accept we are the willing beneficiaries. We seek out the benefits.

But exploitive should be judged in the context of the local economy. It doesn't make sense to judge what is exploitive in China by the economic conditions in Germany or the US. The Chinese know what they are doing, and they seem to be doing it very well.

So where is the Kindle made? How about it's components? Who here is benefiting from the Kindle?

I am.



> As for Apple, I have never in my life used a single of their products, dislike glorified media consumption devices like Smartphones and Tablets by any manufacturer and hate that they're being shoved down everybody's throat as the future of technology. Apple may have enhanced someone's life, but it sure hasn't enhanced mine. Okay, so I occasionally sell books in their store, which is nice.


Don't use Apple? Ok. Hundreds of millions have. Glad you are benefiting from their technology in selling books to folks with glorified consumption devices.

I'm using one if those glorified consumption devices right now. Later this evening I will be using it to consume an eBook. I'm not sure how it is shoved down anyone's throat. I went looking for it, but projecting my behavior onto anyone else would be baseless.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

KaryE said:


> OK, here's something fun...
> 
> Go take this test. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp
> 
> ...


INTP
I 78%
N 50%
T 38%
P 67%

I've done this before. It's funny, the wife and I have just about the same scores.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Low protocol dominant, both of you. And you tend to misplace your toys.

Your MBTI prayer is, "Lord, please help me to be less independent. But let me do it _my_ way."


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

That test, I have no clue what the results mean  

ISTJ
Introvert(89%)  Sensing(12%)  Thinking(12%)  Judging(33%)
You have strong preference of Introversion over Extraversion (89%)
You have slight preference of Sensing over Intuition (12%)
You have slight preference of Thinking over Feeling (12%)
You have moderate preference of Judging over Perceiving (33%)

I get the first one, I mean duh.  

So, do I open the door to the dungeon?


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Top. You'd most likely prefer the straight sensation play of S&M without getting into the dom/sub stuff.

You have a collection of clipboards somewhere. They might even be labeled and sorted by size.

Your MBTI prayer is, "Lord, help me to relax about insignificant details beginning tomorrow at 11:41:23 am EST."


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)




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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Here's a description if you're interested. http://www.personalitypage.com/ISTJ.html

Anyone else who's interested can find their profile by Googling their four letters and the word portrait or profile.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

INTJ
Introvert(89%)  iNtuitive(38%)  Thinking(50%)  Judging(33%)
You have strong preference of Introversion over Extraversion (89%)
You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (38%)
You have moderate preference of Thinking over Feeling (50%)
You have moderate preference of Judging over Perceiving (33%)


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

KaryE said:


> Here's a description if you're interested. http://www.personalitypage.com/ISTJ.html
> 
> Anyone else who's interested can find their profile by Googling their four letters and the word portrait or profile.


Ok, now I am slightly creeped out . Scarily spot on on most stuff. Weird.

Off to find a billionaire with a dungeon.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> INTJ
> Introvert(89%) iNtuitive(38%) Thinking(50%) Judging(33%)
> You have strong preference of Introversion over Extraversion (89%)
> You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (38%)
> ...


Domme. If you tried the high protocol style, you'd probably like it.

T women sometimes feel 'different' and out of place among other women, likely because some two thirds of women are Fs. INTJs are also rare, making up about 2% of a normal sample.

Your prayer is, "God, keep me open to others' ideas, WRONG though they they may be."

Incompetent people annoy you to no end, especially if they're your boss.

Among male INTJs, I've only ever met one who didn't own an automatic weapon, and most of them got into something for thrills that could have gotten them arrested or killed as teens and twenty-somethings (examples: cat-burglary and street racing). Again, that's the males, so might not apply to you.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Not a lot of surprises here. Although the way the descriptions are worded, it seems only a little more accurate than astrology or palm reading. Which is to say, you could say many of the same generalities about basically most people as "my" profile has.

ENTJ

Extravert(1%)  iNtuitive(38%)  Thinking(75%)  Judging(44%)
You have marginal or no preference of Extraversion over Introversion (1%)
You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (38%)
You have distinctive preference of Thinking over Feeling (75%)
You have moderate preference of Judging over Perceiving (44%)


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

Okay, 

I have to make a statement about 'psychopathy' because 'sociopathy' is the diagnosed disorder (usually disagnosed people in jail), and psychopathy is just the traits or personality disorder. 

Now, there are many traits that make up psychopathy. Those with psychopathy that are functioning well in society are extremely charming people. They understand the emotions of others very well and know exactly how to play other people according to their feelings, because they themselves are completely removed from the 'emotional equation'. Their emotional needs are all about power over others. When that becomes threatened, then you see the pschopath traits come out. There are 9 traits associated with psychopathy, you can have only several, or all. Having 7-9 of the traits tends to make you sociopathic (you end up doing crime against others and go to jail). Many CEOs have some of the traits of psychopathy, and yes they do not have what's called 'empathy' but they theoretically understand emotions well which is why they seem to have genuine emotional reactions, when they don't. 

DO they need to talk about themselves all the time? Some do, some don't. It's not really the biggest indicator. 

My partner works with sociopaths in treating them and rehabilitating them. And you can imagine how much of a fruitless exercise that can be at times, but it's part of the Australian system. He's heard many stories of women psychologists being seduced by them... now don't make assumptions about these women, it's not entirely their fault. Sociopaths (Or those with psychopathy), tend to be skilled manipulators. 

And giving away money is not an indicator that the person isn't psychopathic. These men (and I say men, because it's predominantly something that shows up in men), know how to maintain their social status, their economic status, and if they need to be seen as good to do that, they'll be as 'good' as they need to be. 

I hope that makes things a bit clearer. Narcissism is fueled by insecurity and needs external validation (some even say that narcissism and borderline personality disorder are the same thing, but one is typically diagnosed for women, the other for men). A psychopath just does what he needs to do to feel in control. 

I can get more information on this if anyone is interested.


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

I swing between INFJ and INTJ. But mostly I am an INFJ.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

@ Blake - Dom, and your prayer is, "Lord, help me slow downandnotrushthroughwhatIdo."


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

@KJCOLT

INFJ females are happiest as switches. Often they will be submissive to one, special, very dominant partner, but may turn around and be domme to submissives of their own. As subs, they tend to be feisty and top from the bottom. 

The INFJ prayer is, "God, please help me not to be such a perfectionist. Did I spell that right?"


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## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

100% introvert, baby! That explains why I've read just about every comment in the writer's cafe for two years, but I've got less than 300 comments to my name.

Introvert(100%)  Sensing(25%)  Thinking(1%)  Perceiving(22)%
You have strong preference of Introversion over Extraversion (100%)
You have moderate preference of Sensing over Intuition (25%)
You have marginal or no preference of Thinking over Feeling (1%)
You have slight preference of Perceiving over Judging (22%)


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Endi Webb said:


> 100% introvert, baby! That explains why I've read just about every comment in the writer's cafe for two years, but I've got less than 300 comments to my name.
> 
> Introvert(100%) Sensing(25%) Thinking(1%) Perceiving(22)%
> You have strong preference of Introversion over Extraversion (100%)
> ...


ISTP - BDSM probably doesn't do much for you, despite being mechanically inclined.  If you did go in for it, you'd probably be into it for the sensation side only, and you'd be a Top.

Note: your Sensing preference is right on the edge. Western society socializes males toward T, so borderline T males may well be Fs. If you were curious, you could read profiles for ISTP and ISFP and see which one fits better.

The ISTP prayer is: God help me to consider people's feelings, even if most of them ARE hypersensitive.

In general, SPs are some of the least likely types to graduate from college, not because of any lack of ability, but because their interests lie elsewhere, often in skilled trades or the outdoors. Example: ski instructor in the winter, rafting guide in the summer and construction in fall and spring.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2013)

valeriec80 said:


> Lots of sociopaths don't really hurt anyone.


The Sociopath Next Door

Sociopaths do untold emotional damage to people around them. Just because they aren't running around killing people doesn't mean they aren't hurting people. Sociopaths lack empathy. This is the defining trait of a sociopath. They can be charming, witty, fun to be around. When you first meet them, they often appear to be free spirits. Likeable. This is actually what makes them dangerous. Most people wouldn't know a sociopath if they met one in a casual setting.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Kary: So kind of Austin Powers in a hurry. 

At least I've got that going for me.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

KaryE said:


> The INFJ prayer is, "God, please help me not to be such a perfectionist. Did I spell that right?"


We INFJ types are also the rarest!

This is all based on Carl Jung's psychology, by the way. I find his personality type write-ups useful for characterization.


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## A Tiger (Aug 29, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You seem to be under the delusion that the uber-wealthy are well-rounded, emotionally stable, humanitarians interested in world peace and harmony. I am unsure where you got this idea.
> 
> In reality, the more wealth a person has, the less of that wealth as a percentage of income is donated to charity. And when the rich DO donate to charity, they are normally private trusts in which much of the "donations" sit in escrow or are eaten up by administrative fees and the charities directly benefit the wealthy themselves. Meg Whitman's charitable foundation donated over a million dollars to an "environmental group" that supported preserving open space. Which on the surface sounds laudable. But then you realize that the group in question benefited her directly because it's initiatives prevented the development of land that surrounded her own ranch. Basically, she was using the charitable trust to fund personal fights to keep developers away from her ranch. They buy art and then offer it for "permanent loan" to museums, and thus take a charitable tax deduction on the art while still owning it.
> 
> ...


Brilliant answer, I agree with everything you said.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

The only NFP tops I found were males who were doing it exclusively to please a partner (usually an NFJ female). They enjoyed it just fine, but I never found a single instance of an INFP Domme. 

INFP prayer:  Dear Lord, please help me finish what I sta

(I'm an INFP, too)

@Blake - INTJs are some of my favorite people.  Deadly sarcastic wit, tend to be a touch arrogant, great to banter with, fiercely protective, never go back on their word, but dear God in heaven, don't ever betray them because they've elevated revenge to an art form.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

@Cherise - I come from an NF family. ENFP mother, INFJ dad and sister. My brother's on the ESTJ/ENTJ fence (we think he's a changeling).


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Endi Webb said:


> 100% introvert, baby! That explains why I've read just about every comment in the writer's cafe for two years, but I've got less than 300 comments to my name.
> 
> Introvert(100%) Sensing(25%) Thinking(1%) Perceiving(22)%
> You have strong preference of Introversion over Extraversion (100%)
> ...


I'm an ISTP also. Although, online is where I let myself be social.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Online is introvert heaven because we can interact with people without having to actually interact with people.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The Sociopath Next Door
> 
> Sociopaths do untold emotional damage to people around them. Just because they aren't running around killing people doesn't mean they aren't hurting people. Sociopaths lack empathy. This is the defining trait of a sociopath. They can be charming, witty, fun to be around. When you first meet them, they often appear to be free spirits. Likeable. This is actually what makes them dangerous. Most people wouldn't know a sociopath if they met one in a casual setting.


I ended up in a Sociopath blog or site once accidentally. I was actually looking up information on Lady Caroline Lamb and followed some link. It was really strange as they were talking about not feeling much of anything and also that because they didn't feel emotions, didn't mean they wanted to kill. It was mondo bizarro (sp?) so I got out of there.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2013)

> INTJ
> Introvert(33%) iNtuitive(50%) Thinking(1%) Judging(78%)
> •You have moderate preference of Introversion over Extraversion (33%)
> •You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (50%)
> ...


I can't believe the test thinks I have a preference for judging.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The Sociopath Next Door
> 
> Sociopaths do untold emotional damage to people around them. Just because they aren't running around killing people doesn't mean they aren't hurting people. Sociopaths lack empathy. This is the defining trait of a sociopath. They can be charming, witty, fun to be around. When you first meet them, they often appear to be free spirits. Likeable. This is actually what makes them dangerous. Most people wouldn't know a sociopath if they met one in a casual setting.


Yeah, when I was mopping floors at Pittsburgh Psych circa '80, there were a bunch of them in there. I wasn't in the violent wing, but I'd hear the doctors discuss the patients. It was mostly kids that parents brought in to have them "helped." Since there's no real cure, the preferred treatment was electrotherapy. I used to mop up the pee and crap when they were done with them. I didn't know which patients were in there for what, never saw the charts, but a lot of sociopaths were discussed. All those kids had a look like dog that doesn't know why it's getting beat. That's why I say I'd just leave them alone. Keep your distance. And if one happnens to be a billionaire, then I'm not gonna even try to get him to give to charity, because he just doesn't see the world the same way most people do. If he's not breaking the law, leave him be.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

You're right on the T/F border, too, Julie. Domme for INTJ, bratty switch for INFJ.    No surprises there, eh?  

Testing note: for people on the border of the T/F dichotomy, a type trainer will often suggest that the person consider the side that goes against standard socialization. Society pushes women toward F, so ingrained social forces may be blunting the T side of the scores for women, and the F side for men. All of that said, it's the client who makes the final call about which side is the better fit for who they are, not the person giving the test.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

No other INTP's on the board? No wonder I don't fit in.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> No other INTP's on the board? No wonder I don't fit in.


INTPs are good people. I married one.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

KaryE said:


> Domme. If you tried the high protocol style, you'd probably like it.
> 
> T women sometimes feel 'different' and out of place among other women, likely because some two thirds of women are Fs. INTJs are also rare, making up about 2% of a normal sample.
> 
> ...


I'm an INTJ, too. Glad I'm not male. 

INTJ
Introvert(67%) iNtuitive(38%) Thinking(12%) Judging(67%)
•You have distinctive preference of Introversion over Extraversion (67%)
•You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (38%)
•You have slight preference of Thinking over Feeling (12%)
•You have distinctive preference of Judging over Perceiving (67%)


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I'm an INTJ, too. Glad I'm not male.
> 
> INTJ
> Introvert(67%) iNtuitive(38%) Thinking(12%) Judging(67%)
> ...


Hah! I knew you'd be judgemental! Typical teacher.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Judging in this particular case doesn't actually mean judgmental. It means moving to closure with information and decisions. So Ps have a preference for perceptions, for staying open to new information, for delaying decisions to see if more data comes in. Js have a preference for being decisive, for moving more quickly to solidify opinions and decisions.

Example 1: What time is it?

P answer: It's getting late. 
J answer: 9:08 am.

Example 2: Would you like to go see that new movie?
P answer: That got good reviews, didn't it? (means yes)
J answer: Yes.

Example 3:

P, riding in car: Oh, look! There's a Baskin Robbins. (a perception)
J: *keeps driving*
P, disappointed: Why didn't you stop?
J, mystified: Stop? What for?
P: Ice cream.
J: You didn't say you wanted ice cream.
P: Yes, I did. I said, "Oh, look. There's a Baskin Robbins."

To the P, the desire to stop is perfectly clear. To the J, it's incomprehensible, and possibly annoying.  For the J, "Stop the car. I want some ice cream." is how one communicates a desire for ice cream.

OK, example 4. In my type seminar, my table was mostly Js who'd been sent to the seminar to get their certification to use type skills for things like team building in their jobs. The table behind me had mostly Ps.

The projector broke, and it took several minutes for the staff to locate and swap out the bad bulb. The Js at my table got tense over the delay. They leaned in and said things like "What's going on? Why have we stopped? We're getting _behind_."

The Ps at the table behind us stood up, ripped open a bag of Snickers, yelled "Chocolate break!" and threw candy to everyone in the room.

Js like lists, structure and schedules, and they stick to them. Once a decision has been made, it's done. Ps are adaptable folks who like to keep things fluid and see what happens. Ps like to sleep on decisions, and even once they're made, the P is happy to reevaluate if new info pops up.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

KaryE said:


> Judging in this particular case doesn't actually mean judgemental.


It does in Becca's case.


----------



## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> It does in Becca's case.


LOL! Pthbthbthb.


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2013)

KaryE said:


> To the P, the desire to stop is perfectly clear. To the J, it's incomprehensible, and possibly annoying.  For the J, "Stop the car. I want some ice cream." is how one communicates a desire for ice cream.


I've had this conversation with Mike. Not with ice cream, but comic book shops.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

If I received a check for one billion, one of the first things I would do would be to place a one dollar bill in a bowl and burn it, while thinking about how to spend/save/donate the rest.  This is what I do when I receive lump sums of money.  It's illegal for individuals to destroy currency; the Fed does it all the time.

I'd distribute the funds in a number of accounts, as untraceable as possible.  I would not bank online.  I'd have a ready go-bag with cash, gold, precious stones, clothes, water, etc., for immediate flight in an extreme crisis.  I'd move into a better apartment or small house, and go on with my life, funding my theatrical projects, learning to become a better photographer and graphics artist, and writing e-books.  I would continue contributing to K-boards.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> No other INTP's on the board? No wonder I don't fit in.


I'm an INTP. Find the answer, forget the pants. My life story....


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Hah! I knew you'd be judgemental! Typical teacher.


Not just judgmental; "distinctive[ly]" judgmental.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

LynnBlackmar said:


> I'm an INTP. Find the answer, forget the pants. My life story....


lol Wow, "forget the pants" is actually my motto.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> lol Wow, "forget the pants" is actually my motto.


I was amused in the new Thor movie at Dr. Selvig in his underwear. I thought, _Yep. INTP._


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

LynnBlackmar said:


> I was amused in the new Thor movie at Dr. Selvig in his underwear. I thought, _Yep. INTP._


I had similar thoughts about Peter Jackson accepting his Oscar in rumpled black pants and sneakers. I mean, at least he was _wearing_ pants...

I have repeatedly run out of the house to get in the car to go to work only to discover that I am A) barefoot, B) in sock feet, or C) still wearing my slippers (depends on the weather). The pants story, not sure I can tell that one here. All I can say is that there was a job interview involved, and yes, I got the job.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

KaryE said:


> I had similar thoughts about Peter Jackson accepting his Oscar in rumpled black pants and sneakers. I mean, at least he was _wearing_ pants...


That's when it's good to have a spouse who remembers those things for you...

Honey. _Pants._ NOW.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

LynnBlackmar said:


> That's when it's good to have a spouse who remembers those things for you...
> 
> Honey. _Pants._ NOW.


Much giggling here as I am that spouse. INFPs can be scatterbrained, too, though.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I got:

INFJ
Introvert(22%)  iNtuitive(38%)  Feeling(62%)  Judging(33%)
You have slight preference of Introversion over Extraversion (22%)
You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (38%)
You have distinctive preference of Feeling over Thinking (62%)
You have moderate preference of Judging over Perceiving (33%)

I've taken these in the past and switched between Extrovert and Introvert on different tests.  I'm coming out of a period of depression, which makes me more introverted.  Once I'm feeling like my old self again, I imagine I'll be a lot closer to that extrovert border again, or possibly over it.  

Every psychological test I do, I tend to be a mixture of (sometimes contradictory) categories.  I also wind up as the mentor figure in all those, "Which character are you?" tests - Gandalf, Dumbledore, Professor X, etc.


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## rocky mountain reader (Jul 8, 2009)

INTJ here.  My wife is ESFJ.  Incompatible?  Not at all. Next month, we'll celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary.  We complement (and compliment) each other.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The Sociopath Next Door
> 
> Sociopaths do untold emotional damage to people around them. Just because they aren't running around killing people doesn't mean they aren't hurting people. Sociopaths lack empathy. This is the defining trait of a sociopath. They can be charming, witty, fun to be around. When you first meet them, they often appear to be free spirits. Likeable. This is actually what makes them dangerous. Most people wouldn't know a sociopath if they met one in a casual setting.


I'm fairly sure I dated a sociopath for about a year and a half. He was horribly emotionally abusive and extremely manipulative--not only to me, but to everyone he came into contact with. But he was never, ever violent. Ever.

I started to get the impression that he seemed to look at the world the way a person might view a video game. All the people around him were just things that he tried to, well, control. Move. Make react. Sometimes he did this for reasons that made sense, because it benefited him. (He was really good at dickering over prices, for instance. When I moved in with him, he got our rent down like $400 a month just from talking to the landlord. At first, he seemed really friendly, like he was everyone's best friend, you know?) But sometimes I felt like he just made people do things... I don't know... because he _could_. He thought very highly of himself, and if he could manipulate you into doing whatever he wanted, you were garbage in his mind. Not worth anything.

Of course, he thought I was garbage too, a sentiment he expressed often, in lots and lots of different ways. And I believed him, which is why I didn't leave.

So, yeah, definitely they can cause emotional damage. But... you can't lock someone up for hurting your feelings. I guess I was only trying to say that there are levels.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

rocky mountain reader said:


> INTJ here. My wife is ESFJ. Incompatible? Not at all. Next month, we'll celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary. We complement (and compliment) each other.


That's wonderful! Congratulations. 

I don't think any types are truly incompatible. There might be predictable points of friction, but that's the case with any two people, no matter who they are.

ESFJ prayer: God, give me patience, and I mean right NOW!

@all - if I've missed anyone on prayers and what, let me know. I'm trying not to repeat the same ones if I've given one already. (The prayers, of course, are intended as humor. They're not mine, either, they're a meme in the type community.)


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

KaryE said:


> ESFJ prayer: God, give me patience, and I mean right NOW!


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