# Let's Get Something Straight - You Are Not Independent



## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

I've been watching the self-publishing thing deteriorate along with everyone else, but nobody is saying what needs to be said, so I guess it's up to me. I say all this with sincere concern because nothing is going to improve until YOU make a change.

You aren't independent. You are 100% dependent on Amazon for your livelihood. Your parents had jobs where they got paid. You have a "job" (you work for Amazon, dear) where you *might* get paid. You complain constantly, but won't do anything about it because you want to believe Amazon is the only way you can get readers. That comfy warm cocoon with the warm fire and the hot meals is so inviting and you desperately want to stay. But it's an illusion. You know it. You just don't want to admit it.

The same is true of "permanent jobs." Ain't no jobs, son. You're a temp. You're underpaid. There are no exceptions to these facts. You could get fired tomorrow no matter how good a job you do. Look up "Disney Animator" if you want to see how little your job performance has to do with your job security. Corporations prefer it this way. When workers are desperate and starving stupid people can maintain control and short-term profits spike.

It's kind of like an imaginary monster. You give it all its power and then cry when it eats you.

Web site makers do the same thing with Google. Facebook and YouTube people do the same thing with viral content. PC owners do the same with Microsoft. You create these ravenous monsters with your creative talent and energy and then are surprised when they attack you. They want your labor for free. They want your labor for free. Free. FREE. Do you get it yet? You're never going to get a fair deal because you climbed into the cage and pulled the door closed.

You have forgotten what the Internet is. You turned it into a shopping mall and then volunteered to get kicked out. You proudly declared the end of middlemen and then went on to build the most ridiculous middleman ever DREAMED of. It's literally a robot too! Good grief!

Amazon's not going to change. They don't care. Accept it and get over it. Forever. Turn your back and STOP PINING. The salad days aren't coming back. Move on.

Once again I will ask the relevant question: what exactly does Amazon do to EARN the 30% they take? They do exactly NOTHING AT ALL to promote or market your book. That expense all devolves on you. If you are manufacturing the product and doing all the marketing WHY THE HELL ARE YOU GIVING A THIRD OF THE MONEY TO AMAZON?

Now, as the absolute final insult, they punish you when you succeed! The more books you sell, the more likely it is Amazon will penalize your book and possibly your whole account! How can you possibly build a sustainable business with a future with that as your foundation?

Successful authors can't possibly be that bad at business.

Kindle Unlimited? Can't any of you see that's a cap on your earnings? Amazon creates a system where they decide how much you earn, and you gladly hand over all your books, cut yourself off from the rest of the world and then complain because they screw you on payday. What the hell is the matter with you all? Do you honestly believe "millions of readers" are seeing your book? I've got news for you: they aren't.

There are 100 links to everything else but your book on your book's page. There's a price tag of $0.00 right next to your book. What does that tell readers? "Not only is this book worthless but here's 100 other options for something that's probably better." What the hell is that? We work for months to get people to our book page and the first thing Amazon says after you drag a customer through the door is "hey! look over there!"

E-books are the candies in the bowl next to the cash register. They are about as important to Amazon as a bowl of candy next to a cash register. They own a store filled with 50 million other products that a) make more money and b) make more money.

The solution to all this is simple. Are you a successful author? Then all of you take your books, your marketing, your mailing list and each other and start your own stores. Link to each other. Work with each other and the hell with Amazon. Then what you earn is yours and the only e-mail you're ever going to get from Amazon is "please come back."

By the way, God bless you if you're making $1000 a day selling books. Your success had everything to do with you and nothing to do with Amazon. They didn't market your book. You did. Amazon is a shelf. You are the factory. You could take your talent and your readers to your own shop and do even better.

If 1000 really successful authors all pulled their books on the same day, it would make worldwide news. If you announced it far enough in advance, it would be the single greatest marketing event in human history. Do it on Christmas. Gives you two months. It will sizzle like stir fry.

Until you walk out, you're screwed.

That is all.


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## [email protected] (Mar 8, 2015)

So did you ever take all your books down from Amazon, per your most recent big thread, in which you explained to everyone else what they were doing wrong?

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,241811.msg3367248.html#msg3367248

Just curious.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

justphil said:


> You aren't independent. You are 100% dependent on Amazon for your livelihood.


I'm not sure how valid anything written past this point could be when you don't even acknowledge there are other vendors. Erecting a strawman to tear it down can be a lot of fun, but it doesn't really lead anywhere.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> So did you ever take all your books down from Amazon


All our titles are rolling out of KU. We've abandoned Amazon as a viable market. We release exclusively on our own store. I expect we'll have unpublished our entire catalog by the first of the year.

We published five full length novels in less than a year. The first made the top 1500. The other four combined sold a single-digit percentage of the first. That was our last attempt.

It has been suggested we publish on other large retailers. Until I see some evidence those stores can outsell our own (Amazon doesn't), we're remaining truly independent.



> when you don't even acknowledge there are other vendors


Other vendors aren't the problem. Amazon is the problem.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

justphil said:


> Other vendors aren't the problem. Amazon is the problem.


Other vendors aren't the problem, so they don't exist?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I feel as if I just stepped on the set of a Disney movie. The hills really are alive with the sound of music.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> I feel as if I just stepped on the set of a Disney movie. The hills really are alive with the sound of music.


Amanda, you are one of those authors who could add 30% to your income by walking away from Amazon and starting your own store. It wouldn't have any effect on your income at all. Your readers would follow you wherever you decided to publish. You could likely build your own book app and hire someone to run your store full time and you'd still make more than you're making now.

If you and 100 others walked out, it would change the world for everyone, and change it for the better.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

justphil said:


> All our titles are rolling out of KU.


Your big Amazon flounce post was over a year ago. KU enrollment is 3 months. So.



> We've abandoned Amazon as a viable market. We release exclusively on our own store. I expect we'll have unpublished our entire catalog by the first of the year.


But isn't that what you said ... last year?

I get that you're frustrated. We all are. But an annual Chicken Little style "goodbye cruel world" post isn't going to solve anything, either.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

> Let's Get Something Straight - You Are Not Independent


Nice try, Phil, but not quite there. You/me/she/he can be as independent we want to be given the constraints/opportunities offered by indie publishing.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

justphil said:


> Amanda, you are one of those authors who could add 30% to your income by walking away from Amazon and starting your own store. It wouldn't have any effect on your income at all. Your readers would follow you wherever you decided to publish. You could likely build your own book app and hire someone to run your store full time and you'd still make more than you're making now.
> 
> If you and 100 others walked out, it would change the world for everyone, and change it for the better.


I am one of Amanda's readers. I enjoy many of her books. I cannot follow her to her own store, or any other author. I own kindles. I read kindle books, on kindle e-readers only. Side loaded books are so crippled at this point I have completely given up trying to make them work. They have finally, after years and years of asking, given us font weight. Now I have 5 steps of boldness. I cannot make that option work on sideloaded books no matter what I try. Does not work. Other features do not work. More often than not I can't get the cover to carry over. And I was at least willing to fiddle with that stuff and drive myself crazy. Most readers want easy and no fuss.

Why would I as a reader, give up so many font options and functions of my e-reader and buy from some obscure site? Another site I have to give my personal info too?

Good luck with that.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

“Once again I will ask the relevant question:  what exactly does Amazon do to EARN the 30% they take?”

Try setting up a permanent booth in any local business without offering them rent or a piece of the cut, and let me know how that works for you.  Your 30% is essentially rent for being on one of the biggest markets in the world ... with the *opportunity* to be in front of millions of people who are primarily there to buy. 

I might argue, though, there’s a point to be made about this on some of the other platforms with much lesser search capabilities or recommendation engines, but seems Amazon is the focus here so perhaps we’ll save that argument for another day.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

lilywhite said:


> Your big Amazon flounce post was over a year ago. KU enrollment is 3 months. So.
> But isn't that what you said ... last year?
> 
> I get that you're frustrated. We all are. But an annual Chicken Little style "goodbye cruel world" post isn't going to solve anything, either.


I'm pretty sure he said it the year before, too. In fact, at one point I believe there was a claim that he'd already pulled out of Amazon (this would've been right after KU1 came to an end) and was making three times as much on his own website.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

justphil said:


> If you and 100 others walked out, it would change the world for everyone, and change it for the better.


No, 101 others would step into their void and I will find someone else to read on my preferred Amazon e-book ecosystem.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

justphil said:


> Amanda, you are one of those authors who could add 30% to your income by walking away from Amazon and starting your own store. It wouldn't have any effect on your income at all. Your readers would follow you wherever you decided to publish. You could likely build your own book app and hire someone to run your store full time and you'd still make more than you're making now.
> 
> If you and 100 others walked out, it would change the world for everyone, and change it for the better.


I love Amanda's books. I own Amanda's books. But I buy from Amazon and send to my Kindle. It's easy peasy. I'm with Atunah. Anything else is a pain. I'd probably try to get her books from the library, where I can still easily send them to the Kindle AND they're free. I don't want to have to fiddle around, I just want to read.

Betsy


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

Every single day there is another long thread hereabouts complaining about Amazon. First it's the bots. Then the scammers. Then the book stuffers and the rank manipulators. Then it's the KU payout and the box set people and the AMS ads and on and on and ON and on.

Then someone comes along and says "why don't you leave and sell your books yourself?"

"Oh no! Amazon is the greatest! They have millyuns of readers!"

I think we've identified the problem.

You know what's even funnier?



> I�m pretty sure he said it the year before, too. In fact, at one point I believe there was a claim that he�d already pulled out of Amazon (this would�ve been right after KU1 came to an end) and was making three times as much on his own website.


You folks remember what I wrote *years ago*. I haven't written anything of consequence here for 13 months. Yet within minutes everyone who replies is citing long-stale threads with specific details.

You know what they say: If you write and get a reaction, you've done your job. Doesn't have to be a good one. Just a reaction.

Maybe I'm a better writer than you thought.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

justphil said:


> Every single day there is another long thread hereabouts complaining about Amazon. First it's the bots. Then the scammers. Then the book stuffers and the rank manipulators. Then it's the KU payout and the box set people and the AMS ads and on and on and ON and on.
> 
> Then someone comes along and says "why don't you leave and sell your books yourself?"
> 
> ...


Every day people complain about the weather, too.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Every day people complain about the weather, too.


Hurricane Phil has just be downgraded to Logical Storm Amanda.


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## [email protected] (Mar 8, 2015)

justphil said:


> Maybe I'm a better writer than you thought.


Or maybe it takes two clicks to see the previous threads a person has started.

It's almost as easy as buying a book off Amazon.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

There's always money in the banana stand.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

justphil said:


> Amanda, you are one of those authors who could add 30% to your income by walking away from Amazon and starting your own store. It wouldn't have any effect on your income at all. Your readers would follow you wherever you decided to publish. You could likely build your own book app and hire someone to run your store full time and you'd still make more than you're making now.
> 
> If you and 100 others walked out, it would change the world for everyone, and change it for the better.


I just spit out my wine. 
Amanda is one author who knows her business pretty darn well. I'm thinking she's doing just fine. &#128514;


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

For Zon's 30%, they offer me a platform for showing my book with the best search functions and features on the net.


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

usedtocare said:


> I just spit out my wine.


Are you sure it wasn't whine?


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

D A Bale said:


> Are you sure it wasn't whine?


It's 100% whine &#128540;&#129304;&#127995;

**sorry for the weird thingys in my posts, on mobile**


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Atunah said:


> Why would I as a reader, give up so many font options and functions of my e-reader and buy from some obscure site? Another site I have to give my personal info too?
> Good luck with that.


This a thousand times. The reason I'm a Prime member is because I have one central place where all my payment info is and I can order pretty much anything I need and have it delivered to me for free with very few exceptions. The last thing I want is to visit 100 web sites, each with their own payment entry locations, in order to buy books. Amazon lets me follow authors, put books in buy lists, send my ebooks to different devices and get updates, sends me notifications on so many things (ok that can be a pain), and even more importantly, it tracks my preferences and recommends books based on what I've purchased as well as having nice categories that show hundreds of books relevant to my taste. That is how I find a majority of the books to read - I never look at the top 100 ranked lists.

I seriously doubt authors will maintain their profits by abandoning ship and selling from their own web site. If their books are hard to find on Amazon, how much harder will it be to get new readers on some obscure site? I've never found a book on some author's web site unless I bought that author's other books on Amazon and really liked them and chased those extras down. And I can count on one hand the number of times I've done that with over 2000 books purchased. You'll still have the problem of having to figure out how to advertise to lure people to your store with the added burden of not having anyone else's books that might point to your book with also boughts and no reader-centric features that Amazon kicks butt with. They might not cater to you as an author, but they know how to retain buyers. There's a reason they are putting so many other retailers out of business.

Plus, selling from your own home leads to a whole host of headaches with taxes, creating a business in a residential area, and losing out on foreign markets unless you really want to get into that (eww). Oh, and figuring out how to do printing on demand yourself (or did you use Amazon for that aspect?). Amazon handles all of the unpleasant aspects of selling books that I don't want to deal with. So I'm quite happy giving them their cut. It saves me a lot of headache and I can spend the time writing more.

Finally, I am independent because I chose each step of my book publishing process. I made a business decision to use KU to increase my exposure and AMS to potentially boost sales. If at any point this doesn't make sense from a business point of view, I will change things. The 90 day limit on KU is a good time frame to see if it works without being overly punished if it doesn't. I don't understand all the angst involved in any of this. Use the tools until they don't work for you, then change your tools. It's not rocket science and it's not worth letting yourself become a victim to it.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

D A Bale said:


> Are you sure it wasn't whine?


Read whine or write whine?


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

Colin said:


> Read whine or write whine?


How about a blush?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Phil,

What's your goal with this thread? 'Cause right now, it's looking like your goal was to inflame, which is against Forum Decorum. And this statement seems to confirm that:



justphil said:


> You know what they say: If you write and get a reaction, you've done your job. Doesn't have to be a good one. Just a reaction.


I'm really not seeing any particularly useful discussion for the community. Enlighten me.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

D A Bale said:


> How about a blush?


I'm not sure, but my face just reddened.


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

Colin said:


> I'm not sure, but my face just reddened.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

justphil said:


> E-books are the candies in the bowl next to the cash register. They are about as important to Amazon as a bowl of candy next to a cash register. They own a store filled with 50 million other products that a) make more money and b) make more money.


I disagree regarding the importance of ebooks to Amazon. Ebooks are the bait that lures people into KU, which is just a step away from Prime. The ebooks help move customers into Prime, where the real money is. Prime customers spend, on average, well over $500 more a year than non-Prime customers. An Amazon executive acknowledged this after Amazon had a great quarterly report last year. Amazon wants as many Prime customers as they can get, and ebooks help get them.

The money Amazon collects from your ebooks is also important. Amazon collects millions of dollars that the company holds for two months before paying you. They use that money as an interest-free float to help run their company. It's brilliant. How many companies get the use of millions of dollars of interest-free money month after month, year after year?


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Colin said:


> Read whine or write whine?


Wight wine?

I miss GOT


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> I'm really not seeing any particularly useful discussion for the community.


Fair enough. Is that criteria being applied to the other constructive replies in this thread or just mine?



> Enlighten me.


This board has been nothing but complaints about Amazon for a year. The heroes of Kboards are now having their books de-ranked. So I offered an alternative. Naturally everyone then leaped to Amazon's defense and Amanda explained why. We now know how to evaluate all these complaints. They are meaningless.

(Edit: And that is why Amazon will never do anything to fix it.)

More interesting is the statement you made yourself. You announced that if Amanda were to publish on her own, you would prefer to go to the library to get her book for free instead of buy from her directly. That pretty much summarizes the relationship we authors have with our readers, doesn't it? Or more specifically it explains the real reason Amazon and other outfits like it are so popular with customers: it gives them a powerful tool with which to screw authors.

Let's bottom line it. You want free entertainment. You want your free book. Amazon gives you that and the author pays for it. The author deals with it in the form of de-ranked books, page-flip non-earnings, bots, closed accounts, shrinking KU payouts, scammers, withheld royalties, overpriced advertising and being kept in the dark about pretty much everything related to the information that would actually help them sell more books. You don't care. You just want your font choice.

In other words, as long as authors slide their necks into Amazon's hand, all is right with the world.

Amanda then summed up the true nature of the complaining, and Monique posted a fine animation demonstrating where self-publishing is likely headed for the people who on the one hand complain but on the other hand won't do anything about it.

How's that?


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

usedtocare said:


> It's 100% whine &#128540;&#129304;&#127995;
> 
> **sorry for the weird thingys in my posts, on mobile**


I wondered why some posts have those - makes sense.

Now it's time to get back to your whine. Just try to avoid the nose spit this time. I hear the read whine burns.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

You missed the people making jokes about wine ... and whine.


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> You missed the people making jokes about wine ... and whine.


Shhhh! I've been trying to stay out from under Betsy's cattle prod lately.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

justphil said:


> Fair enough. Is that criteria being applied to the other constructive replies in this thread or just mine?


I'm asking about the original goal of your thread...which seems designed to inflame. When someone posts something inflammatory, inflammatory replies will be the result. Which is why I'm considering locking this thread.



> More interesting is the statement you made yourself. You announced that if Amanda were to publish on her own, you would prefer to go to the library to get her book for free instead of buy from her directly. That pretty much summarizes the relationship we authors have with our readers, doesn't it? Or more specifically it explains the real reason Amazon and other outfits like it are so popular with customers: it gives them a powerful tool with which to screw authors.
> 
> Let's bottom line it. You want free entertainment. You want your free book.
> How's that?


That's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth. I said I own many Amanda Lee books, but that I'm committed to the ease of purchasing through Amazon. My preference would be to continue to support Amanda. But what I want is ease of access. Having to follow authors around to their individual websites to buy their books that I then have to jump through hoops to access is not what I bought into when I got my Kindle. My first choice is always to buy the book, because then I can re-read it and I can read it on my schedule instead of the library's schedule. And, like others here, I don't want to give payment information to a hundred individual sites (I read a LOT of books). I want easy not free.

Betsy


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

D A Bale said:


> Shhhh! I've been trying to stay out from under Betsy's cattle prod lately.


So have I.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

D A Bale said:


> Shhhh! I've been trying to stay out from under Betsy's cattle prod lately.





Colin said:


> So have I.


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

Betsy the Quilter said:


>


Nothing to see here. Move along (waves hand thinking she's Ben Kenobi).


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

justphil said:


> The author deals with it in the form of de-ranked books, page-flip non-earnings, bots, closed accounts, shrinking KU payouts, scammers, withheld royalties, overpriced advertising and being kept in the dark about pretty much everything related to the information that would actually help them sell more books.


No, the author deals with it by extending their base to other markets while keeping their current books in Amazon so they can find new readers while maintaining their current ones. That makes the most business sense to me anyway.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> That's not what I said.


I beg your pardon?



> I'd probably try to get her books *from the library*, where I can still easily send them to the Kindle *AND they're free*.


Did I misunderstand you?



> My preference would be to continue to support Amanda. But what I want is ease of access.


So you prefer to support Amanda, but you don't want to.



> Having to follow authors around to their individual websites to buy their books that I then have to jump through hoops to access is not what I bought into when I got my Kindle.


Perhaps then we've put a spotlight on an even more urgent problem: the fact the *readers* are caged and not the authors? Perhaps I've started a thread here to point out what nobody wants to talk about? Maybe Amazon is competing with authors? Maybe those so-called "readers" of yours aren't your readers, they're Amazon's readers! And maybe people think that's inflammatory because it's an uncomfortable subject they don't really want to talk about?

Now if that makes me a heretic in the church of Kindle, so be it, but I think it's rather unfair to blame me for the non-constructive replies in this thread or for the fact you personally don't agree with my thesis.

Allow me to note for the record I have not engaged any of those inflammatory replies. None of them have been moderated either.



> And, like others here, I don't want to give payment information to a hundred individual sites


Most independent shops all use the same half dozen payment processors. It's no different or more hazardous than taking your credit card to the mall.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Amazon gets a cut because it means we don't have to run a complicated and expensive store, or build one up from the ground. Or deal with the legal  complexities  of selling in different countries. I don't know how to do that.

Is there a shop (physical or virtual) that doesn't take a cut of the products being sold? That's just how it works. 

I mean, there is obviously nothing to stop you from creating your *own* ebook store if you really want. And some big name authors might benefit. 

I'm reminded of people who sell fruit or flowers on the side of highways. I had always wondered why they were bothering to sit out in the sun for the whole day, watching cars drive past, never stopping. Maybe they didn't like giving the local supermarket a cut and figured they could do better?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

justphil said:


> I beg your pardon?
> 
> Did I misunderstand you?


Yes.



> So you prefer to support Amanda, but you don't want to.


Not what I said.



> Allow me to note for the record I have not engaged any of those inflammatory replies.


Congratulations.



> None of them have been moderated either.


Yet.



> Now if that makes me a heretic in the church of Kindle, so be it, but I think it's rather unfair to blame me for the non-constructive replies in this thread or for the fact you personally don't agree with my thesis.


That's two separate ideas. Yes, when people start threads designed to inflame, we do blame the initiator *for his post.*

I don't blame you for having a thesis I don't agree with--or maybe I do because it is your thesis after all. It's just that I don't see disagreement as a problem in itself.



> And, like others here, I don't want to give payment information to a hundred individual sites
> 
> Most independent shops all use the same half dozen payment processors. It's no different or more hazardous than taking your credit card to the mall.


Which I seldom do. Amazon is much easier, and they already have my payment information .

Gotta go read one of the dozen or so books I recently *bought* from Amazon... *waves*

Betsy


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Is there a shop (physical or virtual) that doesn't take a cut of the products being sold?


Yes. I get 98.9% of the cover price on every book I sell. I also get to e-mail my reader directly to say thank you and offer them a coupon for their next purchase.

Oh, and I get my money in two days.

Can Amazon do that?


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

RightHoJeeves said:


> I'm reminded of people who sell fruit or flowers on the side of highways. I had always wondered why they were bothering to sit out in the sun for the whole day, watching cars drive past, never stopping. Maybe they didn't like giving the local supermarket a cut and figured they could do better?


Off-topic, but those things tend to attract a line where I'm from. It's better and cheaper than what's in the supermarket.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

As pissed as I am at Amazon right now (especially because I'm in the process of moving all 7 of my titles wide and finding this a tedious thing to do) I still know that without them, I probably wouldn't be able to reach many readers. Amazon is the big hitter. Hard as it sucks right now it's the reality. All of leaving Amazon is highly unlikely when people feed their families relying on customers we find on Amazon.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

If you can make a living without Amazon and selling from your website. More power to you. I'm skeptical. I'd love to see numbers in six months and a year. 

No one here thinks Amazon is our perfect mommy. Far from it, but we're realistic. They provide a services and take a cut. If you don't think they earn it; don't give it to them. Even with all of the issues (and there are plenty), they're worth it for me (and most others.) Mostly because this is where the readers are. They're not caged. Amazon provides convenience and often lower prices. For me, as a consumer, that's awesome. I love shopping at Amazon. It's easy peasy and I usually save money. A win-win for me. Lots of others, millions and millions, feel the same way. As authors we have a chance to be seen by them. Do you on your site? 

No one here believes Amazon is without flaw. That dog don't hunt. But we're also rational and realistic enough to realize they are an important player in ebooks. Being on the site is important as an indie. That doesn't mean you can't go wide (including your own site and newsletters, etc). But the reality of the landscape is that they're the best place in town to reach readers. You know this. You just don't like it.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

justphil said:


> Yes. I get 98.9% of the cover price on every book I sell. I also get to e-mail my reader directly to say thank you and offer them a coupon for their next purchase.
> 
> Oh, and I get my money in two days.
> 
> Can Amazon do that?


No, clearly not. It looks like you've found something that works for you. Good for you.


----------



## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> It looks like you've found something that works for you. Good for you.


I appreciate that. I don't post these threads to start arguments. I sincerely want to help and provide an alternative for authors who deserve better.

It is possible to be truly independent. At the very least it gives authors a plan 'B' in the event the KDP situation really does go sideways. Since we've all seen how arbitrarily and suddenly that can happen, I think it's something to consider.


----------



## WordSaladTongs (Oct 14, 2013)

Monique said:


> There's always money in the banana stand.


NO TOUCHING

*I have nothing of value to contribute to this thread.


----------



## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Are you selling eBooks from your website or just paperbacks?

If eBooks, are you selling to Kindle owners or not?  If so, how are you creating the file?  KindleGen is not an option in that case and the only other software I know of that can create an .azw file is Calibre and the last time I tried it, I wasn't happy with Calibre's output.

And then how are you getting around covers not displaying on Kindle devices?  As a reader, that'd annoy me to not have the cover displayed on the book shelf on the device or app.  (I use the app.)


----------



## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

1: I love every banana stand reference everywhere forever

2: _Edited by mod. --Betsy_

3: So here's the thing. I write books. I want to sell those books, and to do that I want to reach readers in every medium possible in every retailer I can get them into. That's smart business. That's why all of my books are in ebook, print and audio, and I'm selling them everywhere I can sell them (with the one caveat that I'm currently exclusive to ACX.)

As it happens, Amazon is the largest US-based marketplace for ebooks, and so, as a person who would like to conduct myself as smartly as possible, I'm selling my books in that marketplace. To NOT do so would be a not-smart business idea. Even if Amazon was the 5th largest, I would still sell my books there.


----------



## scaler (Aug 26, 2017)

Did anyone else read this in Dr. Jacoby's voice from Twin Peaks (namely, his monologues from the most recent reboot)?


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

justphil said:


> I've been watching the self-publishing thing deteriorate along with everyone else, but nobody is saying what needs to be said, so I guess it's up to me. I say all this with sincere concern because nothing is going to improve until YOU make a change.
> 
> You aren't independent. You are 100% dependent on Amazon for your livelihood. Your parents had jobs where they got paid. You have a "job" (you work for Amazon, dear) where you *might* get paid. You complain constantly, but won't do anything about it because you want to believe Amazon is the only way you can get readers. That comfy warm cocoon with the warm fire and the hot meals is so inviting and you desperately want to stay. But it's an illusion. You know it. You just don't want to admit it.
> 
> ...


Gee. I feel so enlightened. I always love when someone half my age explains the world to me. I'm surprised I managed to survive this long. Thank you.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Why do people get "freedom" and "getting my way in everything" mixed up?

Whenever someone says "You're all slaves to Amazon!" it seems like what they are really saying is that they don't like Amazon's terms.  Which is just fine.  None of us HAVE to use AMAZON. We all get to weigh the advantages against the negatives and make our own decisions.  THAT is what makes us independent.

Cutting yourself off completely from the opportunity Amazon has created is also a way to lose independence.

Camille


----------



## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

brkingsolver said:


> Gee. I feel so enlightened. I always love when someone half my age explains the world to me. I'm surprised I managed to survive this long. Thank you.


I said this to the last guy I dated too.


----------



## tired1680 (Sep 24, 2017)

In my day job, I run an e-commerce store. I've been at it for over 10+ years.

What you're asking is for people writers to:
a) learn and set-up an e-commerce store which is significantly more complex then a website. I'll admit, it's probably relatively simple compared to a full-blown site, but it's not *easy*.
b) deal with payment processors and/or PayPal
c) deal with direct customer service issues
d) do marketing to attract old and more importantly, *NEW* customers to the site
e) and work on things like usability and conversion rates.

Don't forget that from what I can see, places like Bookbub are a lot less likely to approve you if you are not wide. Unless you mean you want to keep the books on Amazon & other vendors and your site, at which point you're still driving traffic to Amazon and losing the 30% or so.

Never mind the fact that as many people have pointed out, they are locked into Amazon via Kindles and other reading devices.

There is a reason why consolidators happen and it's because ease of convenience is a powerful motivating factor. The time and effort a writer could spend learning all the above (and more!) needed to run an online store professionally could instead be devoted to writing more. Which would probably generate more money anyway.

Amazon isn't perfect, but it sure ain't bad and I certainly am happy to give them the 30% rather than deal with attempting to find customers. On the other hand, I'm also hedging my bets by going wide with my other series so that I can build my reader base that way too.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

[/quo


D A Bale said:


> I said this to the last guy I dated too.


 

My characters seem to run into the same kind of guys.


----------



## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

brkingsolver said:


> [/quo
> 
> 
> My characters seem to run into the same kind of guys.


Well this guy was DEFINITELY a character - but not in a book. But the look on his face when I said that back to him was priceless.

For now, I think I'll stick with Betsy's pool boys.


----------



## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

D A Bale said:


> I said this to the last guy I dated too.


----------



## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

D A Bale said:


> For now, I think I'll stick with Betsy's pool boys.


We covered them in ice cream and honey last week. I'm bringing Nutella next time.


----------



## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

D A Bale said:


> I said this to the last guy I dated too.


I gave up on dating. Too many people resist getting into the accelerator mass spectrometer.


----------



## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

paranormal_kitty said:


> We covered them in ice cream and honey last week. I'm bringing Nutella next time.


And you didn't INVITE me? ? ? ?


----------



## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

scaler said:


> Did anyone else read this in Dr. Jacoby's voice from Twin Peaks (namely, his monologues from the most recent reboot)?


I stopped reading as soon as it was clear the OP was merely constructing a poor strawman to exhibitionistically tear down (not taking into account that many authors are wide, for example, was a clear signal that it wasn't an honest assessment, which was confirmed by his response that acknowledged he _was_ aware other vendors did, in fact, exist), but now that you said that, _totally_. There's even the golden shovel of operating one's own store!


----------



## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> I gave up on dating. Too many people resist getting into the accelerator mass spectrometer.


Getting into a mass spectrometer is better than charging up your credit card though, am I right?


----------



## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

D A Bale said:


> Getting into a mass spectrometer is better than charging up your credit card though, am I right?


Depends on if you have to pay for said mass spectrometer!


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

D A Bale said:


> For now, I think I'll stick with Betsy's pool boys.


Passage from one of my books, inspired by Betsy's pool boys:

"He wasn't lying when he said it was one of the ritziest restaurants in town. If all the women pooled their jewelry, we could have bought an island complete with cabana boys."


----------



## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

C. Gold said:


> Depends on if you have to pay for said mass spectrometer!


That'll give you a charge too.


----------



## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

brkingsolver said:


> Passage from one of my books, inspired by Betsy's pool boys:
> 
> "He wasn't lying when he said it was one of the ritziest restaurants in town. If all the women pooled their jewelry, we could have bought an island complete with cabana boys."


----------



## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

tired1680 said:


> In my day job, I run an e-commerce store. I've been at it for over 10+ years.
> 
> What you're asking is for people writers to:
> a) learn and set-up an e-commerce store which is significantly more complex then a website. I'll admit, it's probably relatively simple compared to a full-blown site, but it's not *easy*.
> ...


This is exactly what's put my off.

Of course it's entirely possible to set up your own ebook store - perhaps even admirable! But it's a skill set I don't have. Between a 9-5 job, side business, book writing and life in general, the last thing I would want to do is learn how to build an e-store from the ground up (and maintain it, technologically speaking).


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Phil, I get  your frustration. I really do. I feel it at times, when I see things that appear to be unfair or when it seems that Amazon has so much power.

However, it got that power by doing what it does better than anyone else such that 80% of eBook purchases are through Amazon. It attracted customers because of its easy interface and discoverability. People choose to buy their books on Amazon because it's so easy. Hell, I pretty much buy everything I can on Amazon now to avoid having to go to the mall. If I can't find it on Amazon, I will go and get it at the mall but Amazon is my first choice because of ease of finding, purchasing and fast delivery in Prime. Plus now I have Prime Video and well it's just the best.

Us independent author/publishers have to go where our readers are and they are on Amazon and Apple and to a lesser extent, Barnes & Noble and Kobo and GP. I have readers on all those platforms but Amazon is usually 60% - 80% of my revenues because that's where the bulk of readers are. 

It's just the reality of the market. It's possible to have a storefront and some readers will buy from it, no doubt, but I'm pretty sure it would be next to impossible for me to have earned $1M from my own website. Most of that $1M was from Amazon. $770K in fact. I'd be CRAYCRAY to have started my own storefront and tried to make a living solely from my own storefront back in 2012 when I had my first book finished. 

So, given the realities of the market, I went with Amazon and then branched out after I had some success. 

Like I say, I understand your frustration. Amazon is big and powerful but if you want to sell books, and especially if you want to sell a lot of books, it's pretty much a necessity.  There is yet no reason for most of us independent author/publishers to not sell via Amazon.  Even with all the glitches and problems, it is the main way to get a career going and then keep it going. Until that changes, most independent author/publishers will keep selling there.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> Are you selling eBooks from your website or just paperbacks?
> 
> If eBooks, are you selling to Kindle owners or not? If so, how are you creating the file? KindleGen is not an option in that case and the only other software I know of that can create an .azw file is Calibre and the last time I tried it, I wasn't happy with Calibre's output.
> 
> And then how are you getting around covers not displaying on Kindle devices? As a reader, that'd annoy me to not have the cover displayed on the book shelf on the device or app. (I use the app.)


There are a lot of things that don't display properly. Just in the last few days I have without success tried to fix the cover issue and make the sideloaded books have the new bold font option. I gave up. Those books came from a large ebook site. Even for free I wouldn't get them now.

Covers is one thing. Formatting is another, paragraphs properly displayed, spacing, drop caps. Then I have to think about the books being backed up on the site like Amazon. Will I be able to download from your site 5 years from now? Will you still be in business? Otherwise the books go poof. Money down the drain. If you are asking folks to side load, you have to explain how in specific steps. Just dropping them on the kindle doesn't do anything for backing up, or syncing anything. You delete the book its gone. Will you have a 24hour customer service phone/email? Refund for books that were bought by accident or someone can't figure out how to get it on their device? Take care of the taxes for me?

By buying/borrowing books the legal and proper way, I am supporting authors. But I will not jump through hoops and end up with a product that has features missing.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Evelyn Alexie said:


> But what comes across in this post was the _anger_--not just at Amazon, but at people whose experience has been different from yours.
> If what you're doing now works for you, then be happy about it. You can't change other people to your way of thinking if what they're doing works for them.


When people work so hard to convince me that I should forsake KU and Amazon and embrace the joys of selling wide, I'm always reminded of married people trying to convince singles that true happiness can only be found in a marriage.

People should do what's best for them. Trying to validate your decisions by hammering other ways of doing things just comes across as insecure.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, if you want to discuss, discuss.  Use your words.  I removed some images here earlier that did not advance the conversation, and just removed another.

In particular, for our newer members, use of the word troll (even in images) is not allowed here.  It constitutes name calling, which is not allowed.  We consider troll to be a four letter word.  Hmmmm...maybe I should create a filter for it.  *ponders*

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Atunah said:


> There are a lot of things that don't display properly. Just in the last few days I have without success tried to fix the cover issue and make the sideloaded books have the new bold font option. I gave up. Those books came from a large ebook site. Even for free I wouldn't get them now.
> 
> Covers is one thing. Formatting is another, paragraphs properly displayed, spacing, drop caps. Then I have to think about the books being backed up on the site like Amazon. Will I be able to download from your site 5 years from now? Will you still be in business? Otherwise the books go poof. Money down the drain. If you are asking folks to side load, you have to explain how in specific steps. Just dropping them on the kindle doesn't do anything for backing up, or syncing anything. You delete the book its gone. Will you have a 24hour customer service phone/email? Refund for books that were bought by accident or someone can't figure out how to get it on their device? Take care of the taxes for me?
> 
> By buying/borrowing books the legal and proper way, I am supporting authors. But I will not jump through hoops and end up with a product that has features missing.


Where's the like button?


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> In particular, for our newer members, use of the word troll (even in images) is not allowed here. It constitutes name calling, which is not allowed. We consider troll to be a four letter word. Hmmmm...maybe I should create a filter for it. *ponders*
> 
> Betsy
> KB Mod


Obviously you're not an Amanda Hocking fan.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

WordSaladTongs said:


> NO TOUCHING
> 
> *I have nothing of value to contribute to this thread.


Me neither. Just wine. Actually, I'm watching the Eagles game and turned to vodka. 
I can't sell any books on my website. I'll admit my sales are dependent on Pronoun(some books wide) & Amazon(some books KU) & it's been enough to allow me to retire from working as an ER RN & work as a full-time author for the last 3-4 years &#128522;


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

brkingsolver said:


> Obviously you're not an Amanda Hocking fan.




As Amanda is a member emeritus of KBoards, I am a huge fan...I bought my first AH book in 2010.

Betsy


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> As Amanda is a member emeritus of KBoards, I am a huge fan...I bought my first AH book in 2010.
> 
> Betsy


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

usedtocare said:


> Actually, I'm watching the Eagles game and turned to vodka.


Me, too. Well, except for the vodka.

Betsy


----------



## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> We consider troll to be a four letter word. Hmmmm...maybe I should create a filter for it. *ponders*


Have the filter change "troll" to "toll" because then they won't feed the tolls and their car will be impounded and they'll have to walk all the way downtown to fetch it, only to discover they didn't have enough cash on hand to pay the fee so they walk all the way back home to get more cash only to discover they don't use cash that much any more and there isn't enough change in the couch cushions to cover the fee so they have to go to the ATM to get cash because the car impound doesn't take checks, credit cards or PayPal and then they get the cash so they walk all the way back downtown except that it's late at this point and they get mugged as they enter the city so it's off to find an ATM and then they get some money and then they get mugged again because it's the city and that's what happens so it's back to the ATM and then the third time is the charm so they reach the impound lot, pay the fine, liberate their car and start to drive home only to discover that someone had already liberated their gasoline and they don't have enough cash for gas because they only took enough to pay the car impound fee but fortunately the gas station accepts credit cards except they left their credit cards at home along with their phone because they were so upset at having had their car impounded, so they trek back home, get their credit cards and phone, go to the gas station to get gas only to realize they don't have a container to carry said gas in so then it's off to a big box store to buy a gasoline container and then back to the gas station and then back to their car and then back home and by that point they've forgotten all about the KBoards thread and moved on to writing an angry eMail to the mayor of the city where they got mugged two times in one night, only for the message to bounce because the mayor's eMail box was full.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Me, too. Well, except for the vodka.
> 
> Betsy


&#128514;&#128514; Bleed green!!!


----------



## AndrewSeiple (Jan 3, 2016)

Upset about the thirty percent?

:: Shrugs :: It's the ante, man. Gotta pay to play. Anyone's free to find a different table, if the game's not to their taste.


----------



## PiscaPress (Jun 13, 2014)

Monique said:


> There's always money in the banana stand.


We have a winner!


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hmmmm...maybe I should create a filter for it. *ponders*
> 
> Betsy
> KB Mod


While you're at it, could you maybe fix the one that gives us the awesomely named 'illegitimate persons' sword? =D


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

bastard - hee, lol!

Another board I frequent has a replacement filter for "bad" words. It's all tinykitten.


----------



## Guest (Oct 24, 2017)

brkingsolver said:


> When people work so hard to convince me that I should forsake KU and Amazon and embrace the joys of selling wide....


Bearing in mind that the OP has had his books in KU for the last few years while railing against Amazon and telling everyone to abandon that marketplace. Reminds me of the saying "do as I say, not as I do."

The whole "I make more money from my website" is less believable when they can't let go of the KU security blanket


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Tilly said:


> Bearing in mind that the OP has had his books in KU for the last few years while railing against Amazon and telling everyone to abandon that marketplace. Reminds me of the saying "do as I say, not as I do."
> 
> The whole "I make more money from my website" is less believable when they can't let go of the KU security blanket


Phil, what do you have to lose by selling on Amazon as well as other sites, including your own? Why remove them? Do you think people should only sell on their own websites and not on any other site?


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Monique said:


> And what do you have to lose by selling on Amazon as well as other sites, including your own? Why remove them? Do you think people should only sell on their own websites and not on any other site?


It's not the money, it's the principle!!!! We'll show those capitalists at Amazon!!!

This spiel gets posted about every six months. Hopefully we won't have to deal with it again until next spring.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

usedtocare said:


> &#128514;&#128514; Bleed green!!!


No, no, no...burgundy and gold!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

ShayneRutherford said:


> While you're at it, could you maybe fix the one that gives us the awesomely named 'illegitimate persons' sword? =D


 Not sure which word is being impacted unintentionally?


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Not sure which word is being impacted unintentionally?





Spoiler



bas tard


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> Have the filter change "troll" to "toll" because then they won't feed the tolls and their car will be impounded and they'll have to walk all the way downtown to fetch it, only to discover.....


*Gives Dan the side-eye*


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Monique said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> bas tard


That's quite intentional. I'm not sure what Shayne meant about the sword. Maybe I need a nap...

EDIT: Ahhh, it's a Game of Thrones reference. Missed that. No, not going to change it, sorry.

Betsy


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> That's quite intentional. I'm not sure what Shayne meant about the sword. Maybe I need a nap...
> 
> Betsy


I think there's an extra s in her post. No sword just word.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Monique said:


> I think there's an extra s in her post. No sword just word.


Actually there is. It's a kind of sword. Google is your friend.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Actually there is. It's a kind of sword. Google is your friend.


I thought of Longclaw but then figured it was just a typo. If there's some Jon Snow swear word I don't know, I want to know it!


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Uh, yeah, I can google. I just figured it wasn't that.


----------



## G.L. Snodgrass (Aug 12, 2014)

Phil. I am an engineer in my real life. I need numbers to evaluate and analyze. Can you tell us how many books you sell through your store? at what Price? In what format.

I could then evaluate your business plan as it applies to me. Currently, I clear 80K a year using Amazon. I work part time, and life is great. I know several other authors in real life, I have seen their numbers. I know how much they advertise, pay for covers, etc. I understand their business model and expenses. 

How many hours do you have to put in to setup and maintain the store? the payment system, taxes, etc? I need these numbers to compare and contrast. Work that isn't dedicated to writing is a cost in my opinion. 

I don't know enough about your model to make a judgement. I do know that before I gamble 80K, I need to know a lot more and conduct a lot of testing. Or, I could keep using Amazon, I understand that model, it works for me currently. It might not in the future. But until I see something better, it is the best business model for me.


----------



## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm curious as to OP's ROI on his platform.


----------



## Guest (Oct 24, 2017)

Monique said:


> And what do you have to lose by selling on Amazon as well as other sites, including your own? Why remove them? Do you think people should only sell on their own websites and not on any other site?


Me? I have no problem selling on Amazon. I was replying to the OP who is urging everyone else to abandon Amazon while at the same time having their books in KU. It strikes me as an odd position. I also note they haven't responded to the question on page 1, where it was asked if Amazon is so bad and given the KU period is only 90 days, why have they kept their books in KU for 3 years?

The OP's actions negate their words.

Personally I'm skeptical that any author would sell better by ignoring Amazon. I'm wide, I'm building my niche on Apple and Kobo but I have no intention of removing my books from Amazon. The fact the OP has kept their books in KU implies that the financially better option for them is Amazon exclusive as opposed to boycotting Amazon. I've yet to see any data to back up the assertion that sales increase by ignoring Zon and selling via your website.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

It's important to remember that the precedent set by traditional publishing doesn't hold with Amazon. In the old days, the big pubs controlled the market because of the cost of entry: publishing books and getting in bookstores were highly expensive propositions. Access to markets, in other words, were controlled by the big pubs. As big as Amazon is, it cannot change the low barriers to entry into the market. Anyone can set up shop online and sell books. 

So, yes, indies are not completely independent. But they're also not completely at the mercy of Amazon the way writers were at the mercy of big pubs.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Sorry, Tilly, my reply was to the OP.


----------



## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Monique said:


> I thought of Longclaw but then figured it was just a typo. If there's some Jon Snow swear word I don't know, I want to know it!


I first learned of B swords in Dungeons & Dragons. So not a Jon Snow reference at all. This is an actual type of medieval sword.

This ought to be a fun translation:
From: http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info/medieval-swords-and-armor/bastard-sword.htm

The Bastard Sword
The Medieval Bastard Sword was also known as the Long Sword and in later times as a Hand and a Half swords. Bastard swords often had a more tapered, narrowly pointed blade. The Medieval Bastard Sword generally had a long handle which allowed for two-handed use and a longer blade. The Medieval Bastard Sword became popular due to is extreme reach and cutting and thrusting abilities and was predominantly used by the Medieval Knights. The weapons, armor and horse of the Knight were extremely expensive - the fighting power of just one knight was worth 10 ordinary soldiers.

Definition and Origin of the Bastard Sword -
Why do they call it a bastard sword? The term Bastard sword originates from the the French 'epee batarde'. This term was used to refer to a 'hand and a half sword' or a 'long sword'. The blade could be the same length as a single hand sword but the tang and the grip were long enough to accommodate two hands providing better leverage and more power. The versatility of the design prevented the sword from being specifically categorized as either a one-handed or two-handed weapon. The word bastard was therefore to this sword meaning something irregular or inferior or of dubious origin, having a misleading appearance.

Description of Medieval Bastard Sword
The weapons used in the Medieval times include the Bastard Sword. The description of the Medieval Bastard Sword which provides basic facts and information about the weapon is as follows:

The Medieval Bastard Sword had a two-edged blade and a handle which was long enough for two hands
The length of the Bastard Sword ranged from 40 - 48 inches
The Bastard Sword handle that measured 10 - 15 inches in additional length
The extended handle of the Bastard Sword allowed the blade to be held in two hands
The Bastard Sword weighed between 5 - 8 pounds
It was used as close contact weapon and capable of striking a massive blow
The weapon was primarily used for cutting or slicing an opponent and was capable of cutting off the limbs or head of an enemy in one stroke
 Type or group of weapons - Cutting Weapon


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Oy, yes, I know. Mine was just a GoT shoutout.

I am actually not completely ignorant.


----------



## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Monique said:


> Oy, yes, I know. Mine was just a GoT shoutout.
> 
> I am actually not completely ignorant.


That's ok, I was more enamored with having the forum translate that definition page for funzies and used your GoT shout out as a cheap excuse to justify it.


----------



## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> That's quite intentional. I'm not sure what Shayne meant about the sword. Maybe I need a nap...
> 
> EDIT: Ahhh, it's a Game of Thrones reference. Missed that. No, not going to change it, sorry.
> 
> Betsy


No, it's not a Game of Thrones reference. It's an actual thing in our history.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

ShayneRutherford said:


> No, it's not a Game of Thrones reference. It's an actual thing in our history.


I learn something every day on  And no, we're not going to change the filters, sorry.

EDIT: Though I'm with Monique--it's more meaningful if I can imagine Jon Snow being involved....

Betsy


----------



## scaler (Aug 26, 2017)

crow.bar.beer said:


> I stopped reading as soon as it was clear the OP was merely constructing a poor strawman to exhibitionistically tear down (not taking into account that many authors are wide, for example, was a clear signal that it wasn't an honest assessment, which was confirmed by his response that acknowledged he _was_ aware other vendors did, in fact, exist), but now that you said that, _totally_. There's even the golden shovel of operating one's own store!


Too funny. Glad to see there's another Twin Peaks fan here.

Such an insanely good series. And I'm sure you know I'm not being sarcastic when I use the word _insane_ to describe it. Lynch and Frost are the perfect example of what crazy geniuses can produce. Lol.


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## amdonehere (May 1, 2015)

Digressing here but, didn't Bookfunnel just launched something to make it easy for authors to sell their books on their website? I got an email from them about that and the guys on Sell More Books podcast was talking about it a few weeks ago.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I learn something every day on  And no, we're not going to change the filters, sorry.
> 
> EDIT: Though I'm with Monique--it's more meaningful if I can imagine Jon Snow being involved....
> 
> Betsy


I didn't actually think you would change them. I just think it's sad that the filter censors out actual legitimate words along with the swear words.


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

ShayneRutherford said:


> I didn't actually think you would change them. I just think it's sad that the filter censors out actual legitimate words along with the swear words.


How's the poor thing supposed to know the difference?


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

C. Gold said:


> How's the poor thing supposed to know the difference?


Well, personally, I would stop filtering the legit words and just trust people to only use them in the proper context. But that's just me.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

That info is inaccurate... most [illegitimate person] swords weighed less than 4lbs. I've never seen an 8lb sword that was actually used and not ceremonial. http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm#.We648SKPK3A


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Annie B said:


> I've never seen an 8lb sword that was actually used and not ceremonial. http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm#.We648SKPK3A


Me neither, and I've seen a lot of swords!

This is a common story, though.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Cherise said:


> Me neither, and I've seen a lot of swords!
> 
> This is a common story, though.


Yeah, there are a ton of myths about the middle ages that get repeated but pretty much make any medievalist shake their head.


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Annie B said:


> Yeah, there are a ton of myths about the middle ages that get repeated but pretty much make any medievalist shake their head.


Or they pick up an 8lb recreation and are like AMG! as they fail to wield it in any way, shape, or form. Sorry for the bogus data, I just found the first link that had cool info and used it to poke fun at the filter. It at least had the general gist of what a B sword is.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

justphil said:


> Yes. I get 98.9% of the cover price on every book I sell. I also get to e-mail my reader directly to say thank you and offer them a coupon for their next purchase.
> 
> Oh, and I get my money in two days.
> 
> Can Amazon do that?


If you can email all your customers personally, you cannot have many. If you did you would not have time to send all those emails.

I haven't read all the pages to this thread, but I will tell everyone the secret of how I deal with Amazon antics - I let someone else put their blood pressure up and rant and rave and stamp their little feet, while I build my mailing list and write my next book.

As to 'if 100 people leave Amazon...' Well, dear, they wouldn't even notice.

PS I'm sure we would all appreciate a link to your wonderful bookstore.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Just wanted to say, for once, IBTL. Now I can go back and finish reading this hot mess.


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

OP, I understand your frustration but as I understand it, even JK Rowling, who set up her own site, Pottermore, to sell her series, still has the HP books on Amazon as well. she’s even in KU though she gets a far better deal than we indies do.

If JK Rowling, who has enough name recognition to be able to trust that readers will find her site and buy from it, still has her books on Amazon too, that’s the best argument I can think of in favor of being on Amazon to sell. Now perhaps in another decade or so, Amazon might be nothing, perhaps another site will take the place Amazon now does. But for now, that’s the site we need to be on to get visibility.

But yes, like you, I’m disgusted at the way Amazon treats us, what with KU and the scammers, and I wish it could be different and we could succeed independent of Amazon.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Unless one was running their own payment processing service, their own advertising service, their own web hosting service, their own Internet service, their own Internet, and whatever else would be involved that I don't know about, one is never independent in the way the OP means. We're all dependent upon others, with the exception of a publishing house, because we're actually running that.

Of course, then we would have to run our own cover service, our own formatting service, our own customer service, our own everything listed above and more.

Me? I'll pay Amazon their cut, the same as I do D2D, B&N, Apple and Kobo, so they can give me access to potentially billions of readers, and handle the tax stuff, just to mention one thing. Oh, that reminds me, one would have to run their own accounting service, and I guess government, because everybody gets a cut. Everybody.


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

Evelyn Alexie said:


> But what comes across in this post was the _anger_--not just at Amazon, but at people whose experience has been different from yours.


That's what I found funny. He wants one of the more successful writers in KDP to pull all of her books and spend at least 30% of her money and time building and maintaining an ecommerce website, just so he can thumb his nose at Amazon. I can't imagine why she isn't just jumping right on his bandwagon and riding off into the sunset with him. His little tirade makes no sense whatsoever. Well, maybe in his mind it does, but I don't see it.

Is Amazon perfect? Far from it. Are there other avenues for selling my titles? Sure, but none as big, as easy to use and as far reaching as Amazon. Do I really want to get back into designing and maintaining an ecommerce website? No, I do not. Been there, done that and didn't even get a freakin' t-shirt out of the deal.


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> In particular, for our newer members, use of the word troll (even in images) is not allowed here. It constitutes name calling, which is not allowed. We consider troll to be a four letter word. Hmmmm...maybe I should create a filter for it. *ponders*


But, but, but ... what about my new novel coming out, about the joys of fishing from a very slow moving boat? How could I possibly discuss it without using the word "troll?" Not to mention my new fantasy series will have these large, ugly, green guys that live under bridges and attack people that try to cross them. Bridge attack monsters?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

dgcasey said:


> But, but, but ... what about my new novel coming out, about the joys of fishing from a very slow moving boat? How could I possibly discuss it without using the word "troll?" Not to mention my new fantasy series will have these large, ugly, green guys that live under bridges and attack people that try to cross them. Bridge attack monsters?


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## ZsofiaMacho (Sep 8, 2017)

justphil said:


> I've been watching the self-publishing thing deteriorate along with everyone else, but nobody is saying what needs to be said, so I guess it's up to me. I say all this with sincere concern because nothing is going to improve until YOU make a change.


This is very interesting, I hear more and more people talking about reaching out to other vendors as well... But isn't this the price you have to pay for exposure?
Anyway, who knows, maybe the future is something entirely different? What do you think of peer-to-peer sales?

Blockchain technology will probably make it possible: https://publishdrive.com/blockchain-technology/


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## Goulburn (May 21, 2014)

Amazon authors are definitely independent. They independently chose the distributor of their choice. 

Many of us have good sales of our writing outside of Amazon. I'd never heard of Amazon until 2010, and I sold my first piece of writing to a newspaper in 1951 and have never stopped writing and selling my work since then. I rarely publish on Amazon. I'm sure I'm not alone in having other markets for my writing. 

I have a highly successful, Californian based family member, with six decades as a successful author. Her one book published decades ago on Amazon is out of print, and she never bothered with the ebook version. She relies on agents to sell whatever she writes and has made an excellent living writing non-fiction for newspapers, magazines, and romance novels for the paperback print market.

Amazon is a useful distribution opportunity, and that's all. Even when we use Amazon to distribute our work, we remain independent business people. I'm sure most of us are enterprising enough to find new avenues to distribute through if we ever needed to change and wise enough to use Amazon if it's working well for them. That's independent choice.


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## DC Swain (Feb 24, 2013)

Surely the title and the OP itself cancel each other out? By virtue of the fact that we *_can_* leave Amazon if we so choose, and still sell, means that we are *_independent_* and can operate at our own choosing?

For me, I'm very much an independent author, and take great pride in it. I can produce whatever stories I want, and sell them when and where I want. I can even change tactic depending on which title I'm selling and who it is aimed at. If Amazon were to disappear, I'd lose a massive market, but would still sell books. That is, for me anyway, what makes me an "independent" author.



Dan C. Rinnert said:


> Have the filter change "troll" to "toll" because then they won't feed the tolls and their car will be impounded and they'll have to walk all the way downtown to fetch it, only to discover they didn't have enough cash on hand to pay the fee so they walk all the way back home to get more cash only to discover they don't use cash that much any more and there isn't enough change in the couch cushions to cover the fee...


Started reading that and all I could think of was a certain _Simpsons_ episode...


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## 9 Diamonds (Oct 4, 2016)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I love Amanda's books. I own Amanda's books. But I buy from Amazon and send to my Kindle. It's easy peasy. I'm with Atunah. Anything else is a pain. I'd probably try to get her books from the library, where I can still easily send them to the Kindle AND they're free. I don't want to have to fiddle around, I just want to read.
> 
> Betsy


Hear, hear.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

omg I've just realized I'm not independent. Not only do I seem to require food and oxygen and water like several times a day, I've just discovered I'm some kind of symbiotic being with a whole army of bacteria living in my gut.

Claim your independence! Flush out those freeloaders!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

9 Diamonds said:


> Hear, hear.


To be clear, the "being free" part was the least important part of the equation as far as I was concerned. And, having never checked (because I *do* buy Amanda's books), I had no idea whether they were available through my library or not, but have since checked out of curiosity. They don't seem to be. Which is fine. The larger point was that, as a reader, I love the Amazon ecosystem and don't see a reason to leave it. I have thousands of books in my Amazon library. I could read for years just from what's in there. No need to go anywhere else.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2017)

All businesses are dependent on other businesses for their survival. I work for a Fortune 500 company in my day job. But we still rely on other companies for a variety of services that we cannot efficiently do ourselves. And other companies rely on OUR services for things they cannot do effectively themselves. This bizarre notion that the only way to be "independent" is to do 100% of everything yourself is baffling. 

I agree on spreading risk around, which is why I am not exclusive with Amazon for all of my stuff. I like being able to mitigate my risks by working with multiple vendors to distribute my work. But there is no way in the cosmos I would ever think of setting up my own store, with my own payment processor, and hand-selling books. I don't think the OP even has the slightest notion of the amount of effort required to do that. Or the complete lack of necessity to do that when there are already plenty of sites with existing customer bases. 

Colgate is never going to open up Colgate stores across America to sell toothpaste and body wash and dish soap. It would logistically make no sense for them to do so when there are already tens of thousands of existing stores with existing consumer bases willing to sell their products. Particularly when all of the consumer data points to the fact that consumers don't WANT to go from store to store buying products separately from different places. What the OP is suggesting is fundamentally counter to how consumers actually think. I know. I have the luxury of seeing a lot of the research because of the type of business I work for (contract packaging).


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## Spin52 (Sep 6, 2015)

dgcasey said:


> But, but, but ... what about my new novel coming out, about the joys of fishing from a very slow moving boat? How could I possibly discuss it without using the word "troll?" Not to mention my new fantasy series will have these large, ugly, green guys that live under bridges and attack people that try to cross them. Bridge attack monsters?


Not sure about the guys under the bridge, but I believe the boat is a fishing trawler, at least where I come from.


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Spin52 said:


> Not sure about the guys under the bridge, but I believe the boat is a fishing trawler, at least where I come from.


From where I come from too (Midwest).


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm bummed I am out of Reynolds wrap....I can't make a hat like the others.


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## William Meikle (Apr 19, 2010)

dgcasey said:


> But, but, but ... what about my new novel coming out, about the joys of fishing from a very slow moving boat? How could I possibly discuss it without using the word "troll?"


You could try 'trawl'


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

williammeikle said:


> You could try 'trawl'


 



Puddleduck said:


> I wonder if anyone's ever written a book about very-slow-moving-boat fishers having a run-in with bridge attack monsters. They could call it ... Bridge Attack Monster Fishing.


And to put it all together... wait for it...

Bridge Attack Monster Trawls Slow Moving Fisherman.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I'm bummed I am out of Reynolds wrap....I can't make a hat like the others.


And plastic wrap is nowhere near as feasible.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Spin52 said:


> Not sure about the guys under the bridge, but I believe the boat is a fishing trawler, at least where I come from.


Trawlers and trollers are two different boats and two different types of fishing. A trawler drags nets, a troller drags baited hooks. Which is how internet trolling got its name.

Trawler









Troller


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Doglover said:


> If you can email all your customers personally, you cannot have many. If you did you would not have time to send all those emails.


I imagine the sending of those eMails is automated. So, the buyer buys the book and the "thank you" eMail with a coupon is automatically sent to them.


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## Spin52 (Sep 6, 2015)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Trawlers and trollers are two different boats and two different types of fishing. A trawler drags nets, a troller drags baited hooks. Which is how internet trolling got its name.
> 
> Trawler
> 
> ...


Well, doggone it, you learn something new every day. I never heard of 'troller' being a boat, but that makes sense in terms of the internet.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Trollers are an excellent way to fish for salmon, halibut, rockfish, cod, snapper...js. My favorite way to fish other than deep netting (which is not applicable to the internet). Ahem.


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

Rosie A. said:


> Trollers are an excellent way to fish for salmon, halibut, rockfish, cod, snapper...js. My favorite way to fish other than deep netting (which is not applicable to the internet). Ahem.


Unless you go into the Deep Web


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Still waiting for OP's ROI. 

Bueller?


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

C. Gockel said:


> Still waiting for OP's ROI.
> 
> Bueller?


I think he's gone. Probably won't be seen again for another year when we'll see the same post again.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> Still waiting for OP's ROI.
> 
> Bueller?


He never shows it. He won't even share his website or the title of a single book.

I can understand the need for anonymity. But when you're being pretty forceful in telling an entire community of authors that they'd be more successful if they pulled their books from Amazon and sold them from their own website, then you should provide some proof to back that up. You don't have to show us your actual figures, but some indication that you know of which you speak seems like the courteous thing to do.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Puddleduck said:


> It is pretty funny that he's so proud of his website and uses it as an example that we should all follow, but doesn't provide any info for us to see it.


Obviously he doesn't consider any of us as his target market.


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

I think we all got trolled... or would it be trawled since the catch was sizeable?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I think the conversation is finished. . . it's devolved to poking fun and commenting negatively on the OP . . . locking the thread.


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