# WARNING: Using FreeBookService.com Can Result in Termination of KDP Account



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

As some of you know, I was one of the testers for FreeBookService, a service that guaranteed a certain number of downloads for free books. I was skeptical, as were others. I agreed to be a guinea pig, and while they did deliver downloads the whole thing stunk on ice. Some people continued to and still continue to support them. Be warned, I just received the following email from KDP:

_"It recently came to our attention that you may have used the third-party site, www.FreeBookService.com, for your title, [My Book]. While we will always support legitimate efforts of KDP authors to promote their books, this site uses improper practices to artificially inflate sales ranking in the Kindle Store.

We take activities that jeopardize the experience of our customers and other authors very seriously. We wanted you to be aware of the nature of www.FreeBookService.com's offering and ask that you not work with them or other services that attempt to manipulate the KDP platform. If this activity continues, we will have to take appropriate action (which may include removing your title from Amazon and/or terminating your account)."_

Stay away. Stay far, far away.


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## Robert A Michael (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up. Sorry you had to be the sacrificial lamb on that one.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

That's really scary. I've never used them, never even knew they existed until this thread, and I certainly won't use them now.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

Wow, that's scary. Thanks for this heads up, Monique. I've never heard of them, but I'll make sure to stay far away.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanks for letting us know. KDP keeps a better eye on things than we realized. Good for them.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Wow, whoever predicted that this would happen (back in that first thread) should have put money on it!


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

wow. thanks for the warning.


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

Thanks for sharing that, Monique, I really appreciate it. I was baffled that everyone didn't see this for the obvious manipulation it was, but it's nice to have it confirmed.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Thanks for the warning  . Good to know Amazon is looking out for the manipulators!


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

Nice to see Amazon paying attention. Glad Monique only got an email and didn't get in real trouble!

But yes, I've said this on many occasions. Any system that is set up to artificially manipulate Amazon's algorithms is bad for everyone. Amazon's algorithms only benefit us if they are organic. One of the peculiar things in the other thread was the inability of some folks to recognize the difference between normal marketing and artificial manipulation. It is one thing to place an ad with a website visited by readers. That is just a matter of making people aware of your product. They still have to act on their own power before you have any benefit. It is another to pay a fee for a guaranteed number of downloads from suspicious sources for the sole purpose of inflating sales rank. 

NO service can guarantee a fixed number of REAL READERS. Not unless the service is being run by Professor X.    All a legitimate service can do is put your product in front of potential readers. The readers still need to make a decision whether or not to download/buy.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Thank you for letting us know. I remember the debate from the original thread. I'm glad that you received a warning with no further action!


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Quiss said:


> Wow, whoever predicted that this would happen (back in that first thread) should have put money on it!


KDP have changed their tune though. They were asked at the time by a few skeptical people and KDP said it's fine, the downloads are going to legit customers. Looks like they didn't investigate properly back then. Scary. I wonder when KDP will decide that freebooksy or sites similar also fall outside their acceptable use. I know its a different situation, but acceptable use is what Amazon says it is, not necessarily what we think it should be.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

WOW They sound serious. Thanks


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

I knew that site looked suspicious from the very beginning.

I'm glad that Amazon has been keeping an eye on this kind of thing.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Very scary. Thank goodness KDP is being reasonable about it.

At the end of the day, yet another reminder that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

Monique said:


> As some of you know, I was one of the testers for FreeBookService, a service that guaranteed a certain number of downloads for free books. I was skeptical, as were others. I agreed to be a guinea pig, and while they did deliver downloads the whole thing stunk on ice. Some people continued to and still continue to support them. Be warned, I just received the following email from KDP:
> 
> _"It recently came to our attention that you may have used the third-party site, www.FreeBookService.com, for your title, [My Book]. While we will always support legitimate efforts of KDP authors to promote their books, this site uses improper practices to artificially inflate sales ranking in the Kindle Store.
> 
> ...


We have had no communication from amazon about our service. This quote looks made up. Maybe post a screenshot of the email from kdp?

Also, if there is actually an email, take a screenshot of the email headers so I can check the source of the email and verify it came from amazon and was not spoofed by someone.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

While I figured it was shady from the start (and torn between my appreciation for gaming systems and my disdain for profiting off of gaming the system), I wonder if KDP got its back up because people here went and tattled.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

freebookservice said:


> We have had no communication from amazon about our service. This quote looks made up. Maybe post a screenshot of the email from kdp?
> 
> Also, if there is actually an email, take a screenshot of the email headers so I can check the source of the email and verify it came from amazon and was not spoofed by someone.


Monique has been here for years and is a respected member of the community. What possible motive would she have to fabricate this email?


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

freebookservice said:


> We have had no communication from amazon about our service. This quote looks made up. Maybe post a screenshot of the email from kdp?
> 
> Also, if there is actually an email, take a screenshot of the email headers so I can check the source of the email and verify it came from amazon and was not spoofed by someone.


I'm pretty sure Monique knows the difference between a spoofed email and a real one.


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## Cege Smith (Dec 11, 2011)

freebookservice said:


> We have had no communication from amazon about our service. This quote looks made up. Maybe post a screenshot of the email from kdp?
> 
> Also, if there is actually an email, take a screenshot of the email headers so I can check the source of the email and verify it came from amazon and was not spoofed by someone.


I think your time is probably better spent going directly to Amazon yourself now that you've been made aware of this.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

D-Scrog said:


> I'm pretty sure Monique knows the difference between a spoofed email and a real one.


Does Monique know how to read email headers? Ill wait for her reply thanks.



cegesmith said:


> I think your time is probably better spent going directly to Amazon yourself now that you've been made aware of this.


I wont be spending time contacting amazon as only people who have their email address public via kboards have gotten contacted. If it was really amazon sending the email, why would they have to use Kboards to find the authors email?


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

freebookservice said:


> Does Monique know how to read email headers? Ill wait for her reply thanks.


Holy S... Are you for real?


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

freebookservice said:


> This quote looks made up.


Sorry. Them's fightin' words. Don't go there.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

freebookservice said:


> Does Monique know how to read email headers? Ill wait for her reply thanks.
> 
> I wont be spending time contacting amazon as only people who have their email address public via kboards have gotten contacted. If it was really amazon sending the email, why would they have to use Kboards to find the authors email?


Monique uses KDP, so they would have her email, address, and everything else on file. They wouldn't need to come to Kboards to find her email.

It's interesting that you're being hesitant in going straight to Amazon yourself and asking about the email. Or simply contacting Monique via Private Message and ask her about it rather than 'waiting for her to post a screenshot'.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

RM Prioleau said:


> Monique uses KDP, so they would have her email, address, and everything else on file. They wouldn't need to come to Kboards to find her email.
> 
> It's interesting that you're being hesitant in going straight to Amazon yourself and asking about the email. Or simply contacting Monique via Private Message and ask her about it rather than 'waiting for her to post a screenshot'.


You are right. I will ask her directly for the email headers.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Yeah, because if I ran a company that provided a service and a user posted something on a discussion forum that indicated they heard from a major company that suggested users not use that service, I would go to the users before I went to the major company and ask what's up.

Said no one, ever.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

The email is legitimate.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

Monique said:


> The email is legitimate.


Then you should have no problems PMing me the original email with the headers?


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

freebookservice said:


> I wont be spending time contacting amazon as only people who have their email address public via kboards have gotten contacted. If it was really amazon sending the email, why would they have to use Kboards to find the authors email?


Chances are Amazon didn't use KBoards to find out about your business and who has been using it. People on are Kboards are the people you promoted your service too...makes sense that there would be a crossover in who is getting the e-mail, no?

And, to say you won't be spending time emailing Amazon seems...well...in a word...shady. It almost reads like you already know what you're doing is wrong. This is, after all, your business, correct? As someone who is offering a service, and charging a tidy little sum for the service, wouldn't it be in your best interest to know exactly what you're as your clients to risk before...oh, I don't know...someone loses their account and comes after you legally? Now that you've been made aware that there is potentially a problem, I think it would be in your best interest to have it clarified for you.


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## JTCochrane (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for the warning.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

kcfalls said:


> Sales following the promo were flat due to the fact that it wasn't actual readers who downloaded so there was zero interest in buying through the series.


I've wondered the same thing about Freebooksy--688 downloads of one title and not a single sale or review, as a result.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

The fact that he refuses to contact Amazon about this is a whole bag of red flags.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Let's break out Occam's Razor on this.

On one hand: Amazon, a company famous for threatening its vendors with termination of their accounts at the drop of a hat and protecting its black box algorithms like a dragon on its horde threatened one of its vendors over using a service that manipulates it black box.

On the other: A clandestine hacker spoofed Amazon's email address, picked a completely random KDP author, and sent an email solely to sabotage a random small business at not profit to themselves.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

AshMP said:


> Chances are Amazon didn't use KBoards to find out about your business and who has been using it. People on are Kboards are the people you promoted your service too...makes sense that there would be a crossover in who is getting the e-mail, no?
> 
> And, to say you won't be spending time emailing Amazon seems...well...in a word...shady. It almost reads like you already know what you're doing is wrong. This is, after all, your business, correct? As someone who is offering a service, and charging a tidy little sum for the service, wouldn't it be in your best interest to know exactly what you're as your clients to risk before...oh, I don't know...someone loses their account and comes after you legally? Now that you've been made aware that there is potentially a problem, I think it would be in your best interest to have it clarified for you.


I am waiting to see if the email is legitimate or not via header inspection. So far nobody has sent me a copy of the email headers.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

D-Scrog said:


> The fact that he refuses to contact Amazon about this is a whole bag of red flags.


I am waiting to get a copy of the email headers, but thanks for your comments.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Hudson Owen said:


> I've wondered the same thing about Freebooksy--688 downloads of one title and not a single sale or review, as a result.


Not meaning to derail the thread, but Freebooksy is for real. I ran an ad with them, and got 7000 downloads in a day AND 100 actual sales in the 24 hours after my book ran with them. Not to mention a huge jump in Facebook likes, fanmail and mailing list signups afterwards. Just wanted to jump in there before people start tarring Freebooksy with the same brush as this outfit.


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## S.R. Booth (Oct 6, 2013)

Thanks for sharing, Monique!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Here's the email with headers.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Wagers, anyone, on how long before another KBer and user of this service chimes in with the same email?


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

A shame. You game a system, and the player with the most chips usually prevails.

The service had the desired results in my experience. My book's rating was bumped into its genre's top 10 free, and there were many more than the guaranteed 10,000 downloads. Those downloads and/or the elevated rating generated two good things: Genuine reviews, and sales of the other books in the series. The also-bought list effect fizzled almost right away. My first couple of also-boughts became my other books within a day or two.

FBS almost paid for itself in sales in the series, but the most beneficial result was that a mostly-ignored book got enough real reviews to make it viable for Bookbub, which should happen on Monday.

I haven't heard from Amazon about this. I wonder what caused Monique's affiliation with FBS to "recently [come] to [their] attention." Maybe just that she was one of the first, and the rest of us will hear about it eventually.


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## olefish (Jan 24, 2012)

freebookservice said:


> Then you should have no problems PMing me the original email with the headers?


ha, the irony!

I remember you kept claiming your service was legitimate, but you wouldn't not budge on divulging your email subscription rates. You couldn't even bother to give us the bone of a fake webpage to sign up for your emails. Now you're trying to browbeat Monique into showing the source of the email?

Just as you refused to be open, she's perfectly free not to say one word more. Unfortunately for you, we trust her a hell of lot more than we trust you. You're just going to have to take her word for it, just as you expected us to believe your service was legit without a shred of evidence.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Thank you, Monique for giving us the warning. You have my utmost respect for alerting us. I recall the original thread regarding the service, and you took a risk by agreeing to trial it.  
Thank you for looking out for your fellow authors.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> Wagers, anyone, on how long before another KBer and user of this service chimes in with the same email?


I can do one better. How long until a "NEW MEMBER" joins KB for the sole purpose of defending freebookservice. Complete with a fake screenshot of an email that uses the header information Monique provided to try to make it look legitimate?


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## dkgould (Feb 18, 2013)

freebookservice said:


> I am waiting to get a copy of the email headers, but thanks for your comments.


Are you really looking to do damage control? Because this is just leaving a worse impression. Your first response when a customer has a complaint should not be that the customer made it up. If you had come into the thread saying, "Monique, I'm so sorry this has happened to you. We strive to provide valuable, competent service. We are communicating with Amazon to clear up any confusion about our service and we will gladly update you when we have sorted out the problem." You would have gotten a much friendlier response. You might even have said, "by the way, we know that sometimes things get muddled between departments, if you would be so kind as to send us the name of the person or department that contacted you, it would greatly expedite this process so we can get back to giving you great service" you might even have gotten the email you are waiting for.

Service with a smile, dude.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I can do one better. How long until a "NEW MEMBER" joins KB for the sole purpose of defending freebookservice. Complete with a fake screenshot of an email that uses the header information Monique provided to try to make it look legitimate?


This is exactly what I'm worried about.


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## Paul Kohler (Aug 14, 2013)

olefish said:


> I remember you kept claiming your service was legitimate, but you wouldn't not budge on divulging your email subscription rates. You couldn't even bother to give us the bone of a fake webpage to sign up for your emails. Now you're trying to browbeat Monique into showing the source of the email?
> 
> Just as you refused to be open, she's perfectly free not to say one word more. Unfortunately for you, we trust her a hell of lot more than we trust you. You're just going to have to take her word for it, just as you expected us to believe your service was legit without a shred of evidence.


That's the first thing I thought of from the previous thread...


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Thank you, Monique, for the heads up and I hope your account is kept in good working order.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> I haven't heard from Amazon about this. I wonder what caused Monique's affiliation with FBS to "recently [come] to [their] attention." Maybe just that she was one of the first, and the rest of us will hear about it eventually.


They were investigating Hugh's spider and figured out that huge hit on their site wasn't one spider scanning thousand of books, it was one IP downloading thousands of books.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

OK I am going to email amazon to get some clarification directly from them. We have had multiple people inquire themselves and amazon had come back and said that our service *was within their ToS. *

I find it weird I have not received a similar email from amazon.

Ill post back when I hear anything from them.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Al Stevens said:


> The service had the desired results in my experience.


I'm glad you saw success with this. Will you let us know if Amazon comes down on you, too? This is pretty crucial for those who took part as well as the service.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

freebookservice said:


> OK I am going to email amazon to get some clarification directly from them. We have had multiple people inquire themselves and amazon had come back and said that our service *was within their ToS. *
> 
> I find it weird I have not received a similar email from amazon.
> 
> Ill post back when I hear anything from them.


It is NOT weird. Amazon is emailing its KDP users. You are not a KDP user. You are a third party website. They don't have a business relationship with you, so they have no reason to email you or even bother tracking you down.

And, oh, lets see the screenshots with headers from all these people who got emails from Amazon saying the service is OK.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

just got in from enjoying the 69 degree sunny morning here in San Diego and there have been reports.  Locking thread until I can read through it.  Back in a bit...

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Geeze Louise, Folks...

Stop PM'ing me.  Give me a chance to read the flippin' thread.  Right now, there is every chance that it will be reopened.  We totally understand how serious this is...trust us.  (Though, no, to the person who asked that it be stickied.)

Betsy
KB Mod


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Unlocking, with a caution to all to keep comments civil.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

emilycantore said:


> I received exact same email. I was one of the early testers also.
> 
> The email is real.


Thank you for posting. I would imagine others will be getting theirs shortly.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

freebookservice said:


> We have had no communication from amazon about our service. This quote looks made up. Maybe post a screenshot of the email from kdp?
> 
> Also, if there is actually an email, take a screenshot of the email headers so I can check the source of the email and verify it came from amazon and was not spoofed by someone.


I trust Monique, and I'm glad she warned us about your service.


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## Jackal Lantern Books (Aug 30, 2011)

Got the email as well ....


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

Harvey said:


> Unlocking, with a caution to all to keep comments civil.


I appreciate the way you guys monitor threads. However, I hope EVERY KDP member feels safe enough to report ANY website that could allegedly be a harmful one. Thank you again, Monique. The last thing authors who are listed at Amazon want is for their books to be removed from the site. If that happened to *me, * I would consider it catastrophic.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

So what was it that Amazon detected, I wonder, a click farm in Bangladesh? A bot?


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## Bruce Rousseau (Mar 3, 2012)

Monique, thanks for alerting us to Amazon's position on this.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Thank you, Monique and all others who chime in with this, uh, unfortunate report. 

So tiring, having to be suspicious of everyone who tries to sell something...


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Thanks, Monique + others for sharing this.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

MichaelWallace said:


> So what was it that Amazon detected, I wonder, a click farm in Bangladesh? A bot?


My educated guess is that they detecting the same IP address downloading free books from multiple email addresses.

This is the problem: NO SERVICE can GUARANTEE a specific number of downloads from real customers (unless the service is operated by Professor X). It is impossible. You cannot simultaneously have a membership of real readers ANS guarantee that a specific number of those readers will download any specific title. This is why services like Bookbub stress that their numbers are estimates based on past behavior. Even with all of their real data, they can't guarantee you a specific number of downloads.

The only way this service could guarantee a specific number was if they were downloading the books themselves. Amazon probably picked up on the unusual behavior and realized what was going on.

To be clear, because some folks were confused in the original "offer." There is NOTHING in the TOS that prohibits you from promoting your free books to customers and encouraging customers to download your free title. Placing an ad with a bargain book site is perfectly acceptable. What made this site a problem was the fact that they claimed to guarantee a a specific number of downloads. This could not be accomplished without artificially manipulating the results.

Even if Freebookservice does have some "real" subscribers, the service cannot make a guarantee based on subscriber behavior. They have no way of knowing how many people will actually download a book.

This is why most ad services talk about things that they can track and guarantee. That's why newsletters tell you how many subscribers they have (which is a fixed number) but don't promise that all subscribers will see your ad. That is why a service will tell you their average clickthru rate (which they have a history of) but won't guarantee you a specific clickthru.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I never ended up using them, although I was thinking about it. Back then, people did check if it was OK with KDP and they said it was. We all knew this was no ordinary mailing list service, because you can't sign up, so the only thing that's new is that KDP has done further checking and found it to be not OK. Thanks for letting us know, Monique.


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

anniejocoby said:


> Not meaning to derail the thread, but Freebooksy is for real. I ran an ad with them, and got 7000 downloads in a day AND 100 actual sales in the 24 hours after my book ran with them. Not to mention a huge jump in Facebook likes, fanmail and mailing list signups afterwards. Just wanted to jump in there before people start tarring Freebooksy with the same brush as this outfit.


Respectfully, as we stated in the other thread, the service provider is using artificial means like click farms to get you to the top of the freebies list where real readers will see you and you may or may not get conversions based on the artificially enhanced rankings. Yes they are probably real people but they get paid pennies for doing some action and they do it all day long to make a few bucks to live off of, in countries where a few bucks make a difference. We've seen this with the Facebook ads discussion lately too. This is not an"I told you so," it's just another caution to do the due diligence. The good thing is, as a community, we are trying to look out for each other and I definitely appreciate those who are sharing for the good of writers here.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

CDF said:


> Respectfully, as we stated in the other thread, the service provider is using artificial means like click farms to get you to the top of the freebies list where real readers will see you and you may or may not get conversions based on the artificially enhanced rankings. Yes they are probably real people but they get paid pennies for doing some action and they do it all day long to make a few bucks to live off of, in countries where a few bucks make a difference. We've seen this with the Facebook ads discussion lately too. This is not an"I told you so," it's just another caution to do the due diligence. The good thing is, as a community, we are trying to look out for each other and I definitely appreciate those who are sharing for the good of writers here.


Freebooksy and free book service are not the same thing. Plead take note!!!!!!!


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Freebooksy and free book service are not the same thing. Plead take note!!!!!!!


Just chiming in to agree with this. This thread is NOT about Freebooksy. That's an entirely different service -- I've used them (Freebooksy, I mean) and had great results with actual book sales and reviews.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> So what was it that Amazon detected, I wonder, a click farm in Bangladesh? A bot?


It's entirely possible they might have one or two staff members who read a public forum frequented by many indie authors.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

SM Reine said:


> How shocking. Thank you for sharing, Monique.


+1


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## TiffanyTurner (Jun 8, 2009)

Thank you Monique for taking the time to let us know about the current situation. We tend to be a rather trusting and helpful community. Unfortunately, there are services out there trying to make a buck off of self-published authors. I do remember the original thread. It's good to know when they don't work out. This is a normal practice on this board. A lot of people report their findings after they've tried something.

Though, I think most of the authors on this board want legitimate ways to get the word out about our books. Everyone works so hard on our "babies" that we don't want to jeopardize anything. It's good to have a "red flag" posted as much as for the helpful advice.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Glad to see that Amazon cracked down on this service.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> My educated guess is that they detecting the same IP address downloading free books from multiple email addresses.
> 
> This is the problem: NO SERVICE can GUARANTEE a specific number of downloads from real customers (unless the service is operated by Professor X). It is impossible. You cannot simultaneously have a membership of real readers ANS guarantee that a specific number of those readers will download any specific title. This is why services like Bookbub stress that their numbers are estimates based on past behavior. Even with all of their real data, they can't guarantee you a specific number of downloads.


In my experience in the app space, they can guarantee a certain number of downloads from real customers rather than a bot farm but you have to define "real" quite loosely. In the app world, it's called incentivized downloads, and it tends to behave exactly as people have reported in the prior thread. Real users download something they aren't personally interested in to receive some other reward (virtual currency is the most common) they are interested in. The vendor has a list of people interested in the incentive much larger than the amount of downloads they sell to the advertiser, so they can pretty well guarantee the traffic. Then the boost in visibility results in paying customers becoming aware of the product and piling on the "true" downloads. It can be tough to spot from the marketplace perspective and Apple has had a running battle with incentivized download marketing on the iTunes store for quite some time.

It makes sense to me that Amazon would have initially not found an obvious issue with the traffic generated by such methodology since the decentralized users look real on the surface. It takes a deeper look to detect their true nature. It also explains why FreeBookService would be hesitant to add interested KB readers to his list, since the marketing won't look anything like what they would expect from a list trying to interest them in the product rather than the incentive.


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Freebooksy and free book service are not the same thing. Plead take note!!!!!!!


ETA: I just read everything back and it looks like I quoted anniejacoby who was talking about freebooksy. I've always been referring to freebookservice, sorry. It looks like I didn't read closely enough to see she was talking about a different service. To be clear I was too enthusiastically vocal on the previous thread for freebookservice and got the cattle prod. I have no experience with freebooksy.


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## S.G. Dean (Jan 25, 2014)

freebookservice said:


> I am waiting to see if the email is legitimate or not via header inspection. So far nobody has sent me a copy of the email headers.


Okay, there are two things wrong with that statement. One, the legitimacy of the email isn't what you should be worried about. You've been accused of Amazon account destroying level dishonest business practices. Two, KDP users receiving this warning means one of two things. Either someone is perpetrating a fraud by impersonating Amazon or Amazon is torpedoing you for something they hate about your service.

Either way, this is a matter strictly between you and Amazon.

Stop badgering Monique. She's merely reacting to a very scary email. You're making yourself look even shadier with your coarse behavior rather than putting your energy into solving your actual problems.

Thank you for the warning, Monique. I haven't heard of this person's service before and I _definitely_ won't use it now.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

CDF . . .the post patty quoted -- current reply #67 by you -- quoted a comment by anniejacoby confirming that freebooksy is a legitimate site. That in response to a question earlier in the thread.

Patty's response to you immediately after was by way of making sure it was clear to everyone reading this thread that the *freebookservice.com* under discussion here is a completely different service than *freebooksy*. Given the speed at which the thread moves and the cross talk because of it, it was appropriate to point that out.

I admit that when I originally read that post of yours it took me a minute to realize that you _weren't_ talking about freebooksy.

So . . .we're all good here, yes?


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> CDF . . .the post patty quoted -- current reply #67 by you -- quoted a comment by anniejacoby confirming that freebooksy is a legitimate site. That in response to a question earlier in the thread.
> 
> Patty's response to you immediately after was by way of making sure it was clear to everyone reading this thread that the *freebookservice.com* under discussion here is a completely different service than *freebooksy*. Given the speed at which the thread moves and the cross talk because of it, it was appropriate to point that out.
> 
> ...


Yes I realized my mistake and was already amending (see above) as you were posting. I don't know your weapon of discipline but I hope it hurts less than the cattle prod. 

ETA : apologies to anniejacoby as well for my misunderstanding.


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## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Well at least one person has an email proving that Amazon had originally cleared the service as legitimate, so Amazon can't really blame anyone for trying the service out after Amazon gave the okay. The whole service sounded highly suspicious from the start and I'm glad the truth has come to light now. It would be interesting to know how many authors have used the service prior to this new information.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

freebookservice said:


> I am waiting to see if the email is legitimate or not via header inspection. So far nobody has sent me a copy of the email headers.


A legitimate company would be concerned that there was a problem and offer to contact Amazon and find out if there was some misunderstanding. They certainly wouldn't go around trying to cast suspicion on an author who warned people of the service.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

Mandy said:


> Well at least one person has an email proving that Amazon had originally cleared the service as legitimate,


But since we don't know exactly what Amazon was asked, this doesn't mean much. If I send Amazon an email and ask "Is it OK to use a web service that promotes my book to people interested in free books?" Of course the reply will be "yes." If I send Amazon an email that asks "Is it OK to use a web service that guarantees me 1000 downloads of my book in order to push my book up the ranking" I expect I will get a different answer.

Amazon isn't going to research every site they get a question about. They are going to give an answer based on the limited information they are given. It's just like if I ask "Is it OK to give comp copies of my book for a review" I will get a different answer than if I ask "Is it OK to pay $10 per review to a review service?"


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

J. Tanner said:


> In my experience in the app space, they can guarantee a certain number of downloads from real customers rather than a bot farm but you have to define "real" quite loosely.


And yet I've never seen an app that guarantees a specific number. They generally hedge their statements in averages, not absolutes.

And besides, if they WERE incentivizing the customers, that is still a violation of the TOS. You are paying people to download a book. This is an artificial manipulation of the algorithms. So in the end it is six of one, half a dozen of the other.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But since we don't know exactly what Amazon was asked, this doesn't mean much. If I send Amazon an email and ask "Is it OK to use a web service that promotes my book to people interested in free books?" Of course the reply will be "yes." If I send Amazon an email that asks "Is it OK to use a web service that guarantees me 1000 downloads of my book in order to push my book up the ranking" I expect I will get a different answer.
> 
> Amazon isn't going to research every site they get a question about. They are going to give an answer based on the limited information they are given. It's just like if I ask "Is it OK to give comp copies of my book for a review" I will get a different answer than if I ask "Is it OK to pay $10 per review to a review service?"


Yes . . . . and, in the original thread, a copy of the response from Amazon was posted by one member. I didn't really think it was definitive.

My concern always was: if these are all legitimate downloads by real readers, how do I, a fairly voracious reader, get on their list? Several of us asked that question and never got an answer. If nothing else, that made me skeptical.

Even if we assume that responses earlier from Amazon, were to clearly asked and completely understood questions and clearly stated that yes, this particular service is not a problem . . . . they've pretty clearly reconsidered that position. I have no doubt that the message Monique got, and posted (which she didn't have to do) is legitimate.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I remember the original thread, and someone reporting that Amazon had said the service was okay. Wonder what changed their minds?

The whole thing didn't pass the smell test for me, but I'm pretty skeptical of people who claim to do things for me (for a fee or not). Plus, I'm too broke to try stuff anyway.

At any rate, I'm glad Monique and the others who are reporting receiving the same email just got a warning, and not a frozen book or worse.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> I remember the original thread, and someone reporting that Amazon had said the service was okay. Wonder what changed their minds?


I'm not convinced they did. As Julie pointed out, it all really depends on how the question was asked. It's very possible that, as it was a brand new service at the time, they didn't have any data to say anything but "this is what isn't allowed, as long as it doesn't do that it's o.k." I don't remember ANY of the posted 'Zon responses in the first thread that flat out said it was o.k. At best they [weren't saying it _wasn't_ o.k. I felt like they abstained. Courteously 

So now they've decided and are clarifying.



> At any rate, I'm glad Monique and the others who are reporting receiving the same email just got a warning, and not a frozen book or worse.


Agreed!


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

Hi everyone. Just going to give you guys an update on whats going on-

I have contacted amazon about this to get some clarification as to
a) If the email is actually from amazon, as it appears to be from Amazon-SES (http://aws.amazon.com/ses/)
b) If it is from amazon, why have they changed their mind as to why the service was approved and now isnt (flip flop?).. We had been doing promotions for awhile before amazon ever gave us approval.

I am not sure when amazon will give me a response, but I assume they wont respond until monday at the earliest.

My last inclination would be to risk anybody's account. Even if this email did come from amazon, there has to be some kind of error. I invite anybody who has used the service to ask amazon if it is within the ToS, to see what they say. One email from me may not be enough to get a concrete answer (and im also aware that some people one here wouldn't believe a screenshot i post of an amazon email), *so please, write to amazon yourself as well.* I would appreciate it if some of you would do this, as we need as much information as we can get.

Thanks for the constructive replies.


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## AJC (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm new but for me it's simple.

If there is any question whatsoever that using this service could put me in Amazon's bad books then I won't touch it with a barge pole.

I don't care how they get their downloads, how many people claim to have checked with Amazon that it is within their TOS, or whether the service provider claims it's all a terrible mistake.  

The email given at the start of this thread was crystal clear. There was no ambiguity. 

I'm grateful to the person who shared the email and I've also learned an important lesson. 

There are no short cuts.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

freebookservice said:


> why have they changed their mind as to why the service was approved and now isnt


Like Ann, who posts just above, I'm far from convinced it was ever "approved".

Nothing personal, but it sounds basically manipulative to me: I'd really be very surprised indeed if Amazon "approved" it.


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

I remember when we all saw this coming  

It does kind of suck that even the people who were given a test-go got warned, instead of Amazon sending a warning to the site itself. It is a scary thought that, if someone wanted to (and had this ability to generate downloads like 'freebookservice.com' does, they could target an author and give them tons of downloads and possibly get their book/account terminated.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

freebookservice said:


> Hi everyone. Just going to give you guys an update on whats going on-
> 
> I have contacted amazon about this to get some clarification as to
> a) If the email is actually from amazon, as it appears to be from Amazon-SES (http://aws.amazon.com/ses/)


In the name of all that is good and holy, are you STILL accusing Monique of being a liar and/or stupid? Did she NOT post the screenshot with the headers? Multiple people have now come forward and got the exact same email. Seriously, there is no reasonable doubt here.


> b) If it is from amazon, why have they changed their mind as to why the service was approved and now isnt (flip flop?).. We had been doing promotions for awhile before amazon ever gave us approval.


Amazon did not flip-flop. Period._ Stop pretending they gave you permission_. They did not. Amazon does not "approve" third-party programs that they do not control. You cannot say your program was approved. It was not. Amazon does not approve or endorse third-party services unless they themselves have contracted the service. Unless YOU can produce an email from Amazon that says they gave your program the green light AND we know EXACTLY what you said to them, you have zero business pretending this is an error on Amazon's part. Really. Nobody here is buying it. Unless you have a written agreement with Amazon that details EXACTLY how you guarantee the downloads and they OK'd it, you never had their approval.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Amazon didn't "approve" it, but they did say that downloads were all coming from "real customers." Or that they were "real downloads" or something of that nature. (Not going to go through that huge thread looking for it exactly.)

Although... as others have pointed out, if it is incentive based downloading, that would be very difficult to trace.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Unless YOU can produce an email from Amazon that says they gave your program the green light AND we know EXACTLY what you said to them, you have zero business pretending this is an error on Amazon's part. Really. Nobody here is buying it. Unless you have a written agreement with Amazon that details EXACTLY how you guarantee the downloads and they OK'd it, you never had their approval.


Doesn't matter to *me.* They're off my list. I'm not about to risk my Amazon status in any way.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Like everyone else had said: we do not know the exact question that was originally asked of Amazon.
Depending on the wording might depend on the answer.


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## Edward Lake (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks for posting this, Monique. I had FBS.com on my list of places to promote my permafree. Not anymore.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

valeriec80 said:


> Amazon didn't "approve" it, but they did say that downloads were all coming from "real customers."


I believe the emails said they were coming from registered accounts. Which is not the same thing as saying "real customers." (I can't imagine Amazon using that language.

But they may most certainly have said they were coming from registered accounts. But that doesn't mean anything.

I have a Kindle device registered to my main account. I can go download a free book on it right now.

I could right now create an Amazon account, download the Kindle app to my PC, and download a free book.
I can then create another Amazon account, download the Kindle app to my boyfriend's PC, and download the same free book.
I can then create another Amazon account, download the Kindle app to my laptop, and download the same free book.
I could then create another Amazon account, download the app to my smartphone, and download the same free book.
I can then create another Amazon account, download the app to my boyfriend's smartphone, and download the same book.

BAM! SIX registered accounts. I just have to link them to different devices and different email addresses. I don't have to give credit card information until I buy something that costs money. Six accounts, created in a matter of minutes. One person.


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## TiffanyNicole (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks for the heads up, but I'm really not surprised. Nothing about this service smelled right.


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## sunnycoast (Sep 10, 2010)

THERE BE EVIL DOWN THIS PATH!!!

Seriously, guys. If you want to use this type of service you are going to be punished.

Anyone who has had to fight tooth and nail with Amazon to get their KDP account back will advice you to stay away from this crap.

It's a world of pain that awaits those who lose their accounts.

Trust me.

_edited to remove the challenge to the language filters.  _


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Like everyone else had said: we do not know the exact question that was originally asked of Amazon.
> Depending on the wording might depend on the answer.


This service originated on and was heavily promoted on the Warrior Forum. Unfortunately, there are enough gray-area marketers on that forum who were chasing the Kindle Goldrush and were putting out flimsy books, throwing some marketing dollars at it, and then on to the next...churn and burn but without care as to the product...*it may just be that Amazon was suddenly wondering why all of these books hitting number 1 in the freebies were all using the same service, and then they may have finally looked into it*, and found the questionable source for the downloaders.

To be clear...I am NOT insinuating that ANY of the user's of this service who published their results on the original Kboards thread have flimsy books. Quite the opposite actually. I looked at their books back then and was VERY impressed. But unfortunately, it gets swept up in the same bucket with those who didn't bother to even try to put together a quality book, because there was little to no qualifications, besides one's money, to use this service, and it was evident that the "readers" were not the least bit discrimintating...they downloaded everything. I think some of you guys noticed that in your Also Boughts.

I had issues with the service from the get go. Spending a set amount to more or less guarantee your way to number 1 with very little concern given to the quality of the books accepted by the service seems very unfair. And I'm not some guy who can't afford the service. I certainly have that amount and quite a bit more allocated to marketing, editing and design. It just seemed too much like Review Gate that Locke went through a few years ago.


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I believe the emails said they were coming from registered accounts. Which is not the same thing as saying "real customers." (I can't imagine Amazon using that language.
> 
> But they may most certainly have said they were coming from registered accounts. But that doesn't mean anything.
> 
> ...


You don't even have to give them your real credit card. You can used hundreds of $1 pre-paid Visa cards if you want, one each for hundreds of amazon accounts. Shoemoney did that to push his 99 cent book to number 1 in business...then gloated about it on Facebook. There's also quite a black market for Virtual Credit Cards.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Lemme see. Warrior Forum. 700,000 super secret clickers. Guaranteed number of downloads? Not enrolling new readers. Have you EVER seen a site that doesn't add new readers? Join now. Sign-up. Register now. Doesn't pass the sniff test. This is hinky. Skeevy.


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## MonaM (Jan 13, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> Doesn't matter to *me.* They're off my list. I'm not about to risk my Amazon status in any way.


I also refuse to give my business to a company that, when a paying customer is having trouble, publicly accuses that customer of lying or not knowing how to read email headers. Not the way to make friends and influence people.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

MonaM said:


> I also refuse to give my business to a company that, when a paying customer is having trouble, publicly accuses that customer of lying or not knowing how to read email headers. Not the way to make friends and influence people.


Monique was not a paying customer.

99.9% of people dont know how to read email headers. I am fairly techy, and I don't know how to read headers as well as a programmer could.

Multiple people emailed amazon asking if the service was legitimate. I put one on the FBS website, but theres a few of them. One of the original ones, I believe was posted by estelle but she deleted it.


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## MonaM (Jan 13, 2014)

freebookservice said:


> Monique was not a paying customer.


Keep digging and you might find that pony.

I noticed in the original thread the image that (allegedly?) said Amazon approved of using the service is "moved or deleted," too. Hmm.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

freebookservice said:


> a) If the email is actually from amazon, as it appears to be from Amazon-SES (http://aws.amazon.com/ses/)


ALL Amazon emails come from Amazon's commercial server farm since they are their own customer. Any company or individual who uses the AWS hosting services will have the amazonses.com IP designation. What the wrapper Monique posted clearly states is that Amazon.com is the referring domain. No other company or individual using the AWS services would be referred to as amazon.com. Their own referring site or email client would be noted instead.

Monique, let me add my thanks for you coming forward. We're all watching to see what happens next.


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

CDF said:


> This service originated on and was heavily promoted on the Warrior Forum. Unfortunately, there are enough gray-area marketers on that forum who were chasing the Kindle Goldrush and were putting out flimsy books, throwing some marketing dollars at it, and then on to the next...churn and burn but without care as to the product...*it may just be that Amazon was suddenly wondering why all of these books hitting number 1 in the freebies were all using the same service, and then they may have finally looked into it*, and found the questionable source for the downloaders.
> 
> To be clear...I am NOT insinuating that ANY of the user's of this service who published their results on the original Kboards thread have flimsy books. Quite the opposite actually. I looked at their books back then and was VERY impressed. But unfortunately, it gets swept up in the same bucket with those who didn't bother to even try to put together a quality book, because there was little to no qualifications, besides one's money, to use this service, and it was evident that the "readers" were not the least bit discrimintating...they downloaded everything. I think some of you guys noticed that in your Also Boughts.
> 
> I had issues with the service from the get go. Spending a set amount to more or less guarantee your way to number 1 with very little concern given to the quality of the books accepted by the service seems very unfair. And I'm not some guy who can't afford the service. I certainly have that amount and quite a bit more allocated to marketing, editing and design. It just seemed too much like Review Gate that Locke went through a few years ago.


I've said it once and I will say it again - Amazon needs to find a way to weed out all those Warrior forum "internet marketers" off KDP. Impractical yes, but would be nice. Failing that, I am hopeful that the next "million dollar passive income blog traffic goldmine" or similar will come along and the internet marketers will leave the Kindle platform alone...

This thread confirms my publishing philosophy - when presented with an opportunity, ask yourself a) is it unethical? or b) is it gaming the system. If you never to anything unethical, you won't put your account at risk.

The problem, however, often comes in discerning the difference between "marketing/promotion" and "ethically questionable behaviour". Is paying Bookbub to get an almost guaranteed number of downloads and a huge advantage over other writers unethical? I don't think so personally, but you can easily see the lines becoming blurred.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

x2far said:


> THERE BE EVIL DOWN THIS PATH!!!
> 
> Seriously, guys. If you want to use this type of service you are going to be punished.
> 
> ...


Technically, this arguably fell apart because the operation wasn't evil enough. There are ways to pull the basic trick off without Amazon being able to detect it (if Amazon even detected it), but it involves doing things you will get _buried_ if you go caught.

Also promising numbers is just begging people to report you on suspicion alone.


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

Mike_Author said:


> I've said it once and I will say it again - Amazon needs to find a way to weed out all those Warrior forum "internet marketers" off KDP. Impractical yes, but would be nice. Failing that, I am hopeful that the next "million dollar passive income blog traffic goldmine" or similar will come along and the internet marketers will leave the Kindle platform alone...
> 
> This thread confirms my publishing philosophy - when presented with an opportunity, ask yourself a) is it unethical? or b) is it gaming the system. If you never to anything unethical, you won't put your account at risk.
> 
> The problem, however, often comes in discerning the difference between "marketing/promotion" and "ethically questionable behaviour". *Is paying Bookbub to get an almost guaranteed number of downloads and a huge advantage over other writers unethical? I don't think so personally, but you can easily see the lines becoming blurred.*


Agree with most everything, but on the one point in bold, I would like to add that at least one can easily find a way to join Bookbub as a reader and see how they market to other readers. With the service in question, that is not the case. The service provider was secretive and defensive about the source of his marketing and his list, such that several readers asked to join from here and he denied them, saying it would expose his competitive advantage. He indicated that it was not all from email lists. There was advertising on certain websites...quite honestly, where I expect most of the click farms would come into the picture. But did any of those authors ever find their ad displayed anywhere? From that remark, he's obviously not using the same opt-in and marketing methods as Bookbub, ENT, Freebooksy or fill-in-the-blank. None of those other operations are so secretive. OP found a short cut, a competitive advantage, and if was a legit form of marketing ebooks, the others above would already be doing it.

In the Warrior Forum sales thread (search Kindle Domination) he's responded to people wanting to see the marketing email, or the sites he advertises on, that he has a few good clients that have asked him not to share his sources, and he is respecting their wishes...really? Can you imagine Hugh Howey going up to Bookbub and saying, "Guys, listen, this stuff works great. I want you to close it off so other authors who, you know, like to read books too, can't see how you're advertising. Can you do that? Cuz if you don't, I'm gonna get all iZombie on you or something."


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Mike_Author said:


> The problem, however, often comes in discerning the difference between "marketing/promotion" and "ethically questionable behaviour". Is paying Bookbub to get an almost guaranteed number of downloads and a huge advantage over other writers unethical? I don't think so personally, but you can easily see the lines becoming blurred.


Bookbub doesn't "almost guarantee" anything. The site gives a range for likely performance for each genre. In my genre, the ranges listed are 70 to 1050 for discounted books and 4500 to 15600 for free books. That's a huge spread. The spreads differ greatly for different genres, reflecting the fact that real readers have different tastes, and a real list will have more folks interested in X than in Y. Also, they have a list of minimum requirements and exercise quality control over the books they take. It's actually sort of hard to get them to take your money. Also they say things like this: "Estimates for the number of sales and downloads that can be expected for this pricing are also listed below. The average and range are based on historical data, but are only meant as a reference and are not guaranteed." Also, as CDF said, you can join their list and see what they're sending out.

In short, there are at least a dozen reasons why the vast majority of us quickly called foul on freebookservice but think Bookbub is perfectly fine.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

cinisajoy said:


> Like everyone else had said: we do not know the exact question that was originally asked of Amazon.
> Depending on the wording might depend on the answer.


Actually, we do. While this thread was locked, I went and read through the original thread looking for the reported conversation with Amazon. Here's what was asked, though I've removed the name and book involved (they're in the original post) as the question concerned what was actually asked:



> I emailed Amazon. This was my email:
> 
> _Hi!
> 
> ...


_

And, from what I read in the thread, the answer concerned "real accounts." Not real people or real customers.

Betsy_


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## MonaM (Jan 13, 2014)

Thanks, Betsy!

I wonder if Amazon has decided that 'accounts' is too easy to game the system with.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

markecooper said:


> KDP have changed their tune though. They were asked at the time by a few skeptical people and KDP said it's fine, the downloads are going to legit customers. Looks like they didn't investigate properly back then. Scary. I wonder when KDP will decide that freebooksy or sites similar also fall outside their acceptable use. I know its a different situation, but acceptable use is what Amazon says it is, not necessarily what we think it should be.


Maybe the service changed. Perhaps they started with X number of legit customers and then inflated their numbers with drones?


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> In the name of all that is good and holy, are you STILL accusing Monique of being a liar and/or stupid? Did she NOT post the screenshot with the headers? Multiple people have now come forward and got the exact same email. Seriously, there is no reasonable doubt here.
> Amazon did not flip-flop. Period._ Stop pretending they gave you permission_. They did not. Amazon does not "approve" third-party programs that they do not control. You cannot say your program was approved. It was not. Amazon does not approve or endorse third-party services unless they themselves have contracted the service. Unless YOU can produce an email from Amazon that says they gave your program the green light AND we know EXACTLY what you said to them, you have zero business pretending this is an error on Amazon's part. Really. Nobody here is buying it. Unless you have a written agreement with Amazon that details EXACTLY how you guarantee the downloads and they OK'd it, you never had their approval.


Thank you Julie for saying what I was thinking.

On a side note, I want to say that having this thread unlocked is important and I hope it continues to remain unlocked until everyone has the opportunity to see what's happening here.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

freebookservice said:


> Monique was not a paying customer.


And that, right there, is the disconnect. Your offered her your services free of charge...amazing...but that doesn't make her "less than." She's still a customer. If I get a free soap sample in the mail it's because the company sending it is hoping to gain my consumership. That's how you should have viewed her before, during and especially after her promo. I mean, you trusted her enough to report her results when you were coming up roses...but now she's suffering the consequences of having worked with you, she's not a "paying customer" and ergo what? Shouldn't be treated by you with respect? Shouldn't be taken seriously?


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

AshMP said:


> Thank you Julie for saying what I was thinking.


FYI, I am a long-time developer. I have developed online apps in partnership with Amazon, using their data and their API. As you and Julie say, Amazon DOES NOT issue "approvals" of third-party apps. If I wanted to make such a claim, I could say that because Amazon issued me a private developer key to access the API they have "approved" my apps. They have not, and I would not make such a claim.

Let the FBS now be anathema to authors seeking legit promotional opportunities.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Actually, we do. While this thread was locked, I went and read through the original thread looking for the reported conversation with Amazon. Here's what was asked, though I've removed the name and book involved (they're in the original post) as the question concerned what was actually asked:
> 
> And, from what I read in the thread, the answer concerned "real accounts." Not real people or real customers.
> 
> Betsy


Thanks for digging up the email. We know enough about Amazon's customer service department to know they aren't going to engage in investigative reporting to answer a generic question. They will look at the sales report and simply confirm "yes, the downloads came from Amazon accounts" and close the ticket. Customer service is not Amazon's legal department. All they are going to do is answer the question as asked. Not go deeper.


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## EG Michaels (Oct 15, 2013)

Mike_Author said:


> I've said it once and I will say it again - Amazon needs to find a way to weed out all those Warrior forum "internet marketers" off KDP. Impractical yes, but would be nice. Failing that, I am hopeful that the next "million dollar passive income blog traffic goldmine" or similar will come along and the internet marketers will leave the Kindle platform alone...


Seems like you're swinging a pretty broad brush. I know a number of members for this forum who also belong to Warrior Forum as well and have a positive reputation in both places.

More importantly... What does someone belonging to a forum have to do with the quality of the books they offer through KDP?

If the quality of their book stinks then they will experience the same thing as any other author offering up lousy quality books: little or no sales.

If the book they are offering is something that no one wants to buy then they will experience the same thing as any other author offering up a book that nobody wants: little or zero sales.



> This thread confirms my publishing philosophy - when presented with an opportunity, ask yourself a) is it unethical? or b) is it gaming the system. If you never to anything unethical, you won't put your account at risk.
> 
> The problem, however, often comes in discerning the difference between "marketing/promotion" and "ethically questionable behaviour". Is paying Bookbub to get an almost guaranteed number of downloads and a huge advantage over other writers unethical? I don't think so personally, but you can easily see the lines becoming blurred.


Ethical vs non-ethical is easy to determine. If it's against Amazon's TOS or against the law, then it's unethical and you shouldn't do it. Plain and simple. If you're not clear on whether a marketing tactic you want to use for your business -- the book authorship business -- is ethical or legal, then do your homework and find out. Pleading "I didn't know" rarely works as a defense once you're an adult.

As for "gaming the system"... It depends on your definition of gaming the system.

Some of the most successful authors on Kindle are using paid ads and pay-per-click to drive more traffic to their books on Amazon. Does that mean they are gaming the system because they aren't relying strictly on organic traffic and word of mouth?

What about authors like James Patterson who run television ads? Is he cheating?

Not hardly.

They're using advertising and marketing effectively. They working within the Amazon's TOS and the law... and they profiting beautifully for it. And if something happened where Amazon's TOS or the law changed, then they'd change their tactics to comply and still profit beautifully.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Thank you for sharing your experience, Monique.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

So, I don't know why I'm bothering to say this, but I don't think that something is unethical because it goes against Amazon's TOS.

As far as I'm concerned, being unethical involves actually hurting someone--depriving them of life, liberty, property, or reputation.

Amazon is a corporation. Their TOS was crafted to protect their interests. It has nothing to do with ethics.

Furthermore, I don't see anything particularly morally wrong with using the service, which is why I did it. I did think, even when I plunked down my $300, that the dude running it was operating with about as much honor and good faith as P.T. Barnum, but I considered him a guy out to make a buck in a greasy way, not necessarily a bad person.

I'm only saying this because we are writers and we are the keepers of the language. Words matter, and exaggeration can be harmful. I beg you to please try not to make this sound as if we're discussing something on par with genocide here. These are Amazon rankings in the free store and no one has been seriously harmed. Also, no one's accounts have actually been taken away. Our message needs to be to stay away from the service because Amazon is threatening action which could have serious consequences. I think the morality of the situation is besides the point.

I do acknowledge that the situation is serious, and that it should be discussed. I only caution against letting it get overblown. I think it would be very responsible and balanced of us to try to keep a sense of relativity here.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

freebookservice said:


> Monique was not a paying customer.
> 
> 99.9% of people dont know how to read email headers. I am fairly techy, and I don't know how to read headers as well as a programmer could.
> 
> Multiple people emailed amazon asking if the service was legitimate. I put one on the FBS website, but theres a few of them. One of the original ones, I believe was posted by estelle but she deleted it.


She might not have been a paying customer. But, you were promoting your service to us with the hope that some of us would become future customers. I'm sorry that Monique received the nasty gram from Amazon after using your service.


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## EG Michaels (Oct 15, 2013)

jackz4000 said:


> Lemme see. Warrior Forum. 700,000 super secret clickers. Guaranteed number of downloads? Not enrolling new readers. Have you EVER seen a site that doesn't add new readers? Join now. Sign-up. Register now. Doesn't pass the sniff test. This is hinky. Skeevy.


Warrior Forum is just one of numerous places online where "skeevy" offers can be found. I delete several dozen of them I get everyday in my email alone. Several well-known authors including John Locke have admitted they bought 5-star reviews for their books on Amazon... there's a good chance they found people would lie on their behalf on other websites like Fiverr.

"Skeevy" offers will appeal to a lot of people who are desperate and don't know how or aren't willing to do the sniff test. The other people it will appeal to are people who are aggressively looking to get a competitive edge. I don't blame the latter but the former group makes me a bit sad because they're learning through the school of hard knocks which is rarely an enjoyable experience.


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

valeriec80 said:


> So, I don't know why I'm bothering to say this, but I don't think that something is unethical because it goes against Amazon's TOS.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, being unethical involves actually hurting someone--depriving them of life, liberty, property, or reputation.
> 
> ...


I do appreciate your comments, not just on this topic, but many others. I am not singling you out but your post did make me think of this at another angle, so that is why I'm quoting. And the angle that I am now seeing it at, helps me understand why Amazon doesn't like it, and why I feel funny about it. I also can already hear the counter argument that Bookbub does the same thing, but again, we know that Bookbub has real readers and makes no guarantees. We can't say the same for this service.

Anyway, my angle is...this service to me is more or less paying $300-something to be guaranteed #1 in the freebies. No other services were really getting these kind of guaranteed results. I would think it would bother Amazon that $300 at a questionable service guarantees you prime real estate on Amazon's site and that if this sort of thing got out, it would definitely put readers and advertisers in an uproar. What would you (hypothetical "you"...it could be anybody reading this) think if Amazon sold $300 slots to be shown number 1 in their freebie rankings? I'm not describing it very well, but if Amazon was selling those slots...there's no way it would fly, right?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

valeriec80 said:


> So, I don't know why I'm bothering to say this, but I don't think that something is unethical because it goes against Amazon's TOS.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, being unethical involves actually hurting someone--depriving them of life, liberty, property, or reputation.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Let's keep it in perspective. Hands up here, anyone, who has never done anything to try and "game the system". Making our books free back when that still worked was gaming the system. Asking people for reviews is gaming the system. Most accountants are experts at "gaming the system". Where "gaming the system" is trying to push the boundaries in your favour while skirting the edges of what is allowed. Everyone does it. It's what makes us human.

So. If Amazon can prove that some kind of system-gaming is using users with multiple accounts which is against their TOS, at that point, it becomes against the rules, not before.

That said, if that Amazon's problem with it, they should take more stringent step against multiple accounts being created. Last year, I was locked out of my KDP account because I had accidentally created a second KDP account. No idea how that happened.Not only that, it turned out I had four Amazon buyer accounts under the same email address. No idea why that happened either. Don't they put a simple check on your email address before creating an account?


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Everything always comes to light. And while it feels great to be vindicated from that former thread (the locked one), it still sucks for everyone involved who had their accounts/reputations/books threatened. I'm not going to do a happy dance and sing, 'I was right, I was right', because oddly enough I'm more angry than happy. 

I'm angry because people believed in the service (but not angry at those who believed). It would seem that all the accusations were correct and for 83 posts, the service provider continually lied to our faces, hiding behind a facade of 'hurt' when someone pointed out that things weren't adding up; playing the victim while earning thousands of dollars from hard-working authors. 

And now the provider is going to come here and call one of the most respected and trusted members a liar? I'm not down with that. This may have all been resolved in the previous pages, but I had to get these things off my chest first. I hope this serves as a warning for the future; when dealing with your business/integrity, it's always better to be safe than sorry, and unfortunately for start up promotion services, there has to be some sort of high scrutiny before we are able to trust.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

markecooper said:


> KDP have changed their tune though. They were asked at the time by a few skeptical people and KDP said it's fine, the downloads are going to legit customers. Looks like they didn't investigate properly back then. Scary. I wonder when KDP will decide that freebooksy or sites similar also fall outside their acceptable use. I know its a different situation, but acceptable use is what Amazon says it is, not necessarily what we think it should be.


This. And yes, I received the same letter. No biggie, I won't use them again. Also, I've tried "new" services over the last four years, and this is the first time I've ever gotten such a letter from Amazon. 
Someone here also informed me they are using a testimonial by me on their site, so I have emailed them and asked them to remove it. I can't recommend a site that isn't on the up-and-up.

Added: I was working on my latest book earlier today, and didn't check my emails until I got home (today was home coming at my daughter's school, she's a cheerleader and it was the last basketball games guys and girls) so, I just found out about this.

I've been a "mikey" the first to try new things; I've never gone to a *warrior* (don't even know what one is) forum, and found out about them here. I saw great results for the first three users, so wanting to be in on the ground floor of what I felt was a new Bookbub (I remember being very wary of BB in the beginning as they seemed to pop up out of nowhere, too) I gave it a shot.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Ethical vs non-ethical is easy to determine. If it's against Amazon's TOS or against the law, then it's unethical and you shouldn't do it. Plain and simple.


Until late 2011, the Google TOS said users had to be 18 or older. A TOS can say anything.

Anyone still think KDP authors don't compete with each other?


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## AriadneW (Feb 16, 2013)

freebookservice said:


> Hi everyone. Just going to give you guys an update on whats going on-
> 
> I have contacted amazon about this to get some clarification as to
> a) If the email is actually from amazon, as it appears to be from Amazon-SES (http://aws.amazon.com/ses/)


I suspect that you're grasping at straws with this one. Unless someone has taken the time to work out which authors used the service, find the correct email address to contact them on and somehow persuade Amazon that they own amazon.com in order to use the domain to send email on Amazon SES.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Boyd said:


> But you posted on the thread he requested for feedback... and when I brought up the question of also boughts; I sort of got a snarky response from you.. and my response was twisted answered with some sort of thank you? I sort of thought you promoted them and said you'd use it as a promotional tool in the future.... If I'm paraphrasing you wrongly, I apologize... but because of your response, the title of this thread immediately made me think of you Lisa.


Exactly. I *had* also boughts, so it appeared legit. If there were no *also boughts* then I'd be suspicious. As I explained before anytime I'd done a promo on my free book, the also boughts would have weird books, this was no exception. I did say I would use them in the future, as at that time the customer service from Amazon was indicating the dl's were legit. I'm giving away a free book.

I'm not sure what your point is by posting my places on the best seller lists, as yes, that does prove the service was working as promised. 
And yes, the stickiness was great, and yes, I sold enough of the follow ups of book 2, 3, and the collection to pay for the ad, so _more people_ were buying and reading. That may have been a direct benefit of being visible.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Boyd, several people, both in this thread and in the prior thread, have said they got good results from the service.  Lisa has posted here that she no longer will use them.

Let's move on.  The point of this thread is to make people aware of the email received from Amazon, not to point fingers at members here who tried the service in good faith.

EDIT:  Two posts since I started mine, looks like it was resolved between Lisa and Boyd.  Let's move on.

Betsy


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Boyd said:


> Fair enough, I was just expressing the fact that it sounded too good to be true and was curious how it effected the organic structure of the algo's...


This wasn't the first time I've had great results from a paid ad on my free book. ENT, Bookbub, FKBT have all delivered great results.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks, Boyd.

Betsy


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks to Betsy, Boyd, and others for keeping this civil. As I've stated this is the first time in four years of advertising books that I've run in to this. I don't expect it to be a common occurrence, but hey, it's a big www.


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## EG Michaels (Oct 15, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Until late 2011, the Google TOS said users had to be 18 or older. A TOS can say anything.


Sure it can. They can hide in the fine print that you have to stand on one foot while you read their TOS. 

But if you break Google, Amazon, or any other company's TOS then they have the right to terminate your account. Their house. Their rules. And if you do something on their site that they deem unethical because it goes against their rules then they can ban your account.

I had a squeeze page set-up on one of my websites a few years ago that offered a free email newsletter. Google didn't like me using it while driving paid traffic from their website so they threatened to perma-ban my Adwords account. It would affected all of my websites at the time. I wasn't doing anything wrong by my ethical standards. I was offering something of value and was gaining a way to follow up for all of the new subscribers I was paying to acquire through Adwords. Didn't matter to Google. If I wanted to play in the Google Adwords house, then I had to follow their rules or take my business elsewhere. The end result was I took down the squeeze page to comply with their (dumb) TOS.


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## Pauline Creeden (Aug 4, 2011)

I agree that this looked sketchy in the last thread - and the few that had experimented didn't see a significant increase in sales of other books that you usually see with BookBub or one of the other services, so that made me wary even more than also boughts.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

This thread is about FreeBookService.com.  Sites such as Bookbub, ENT, Warrior Forum, etc., should never have been mentioned.

Monique gave us facts, not theories.


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## EG Michaels (Oct 15, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> This thread is about FreeBookService.com. Sites such as Bookbub, ENT, Warrior Forum, etc., should never have been mentioned.
> 
> Monique gave us facts, not theories.


I agree 100%. If this forum had a thank you button for posts, I would have used it.


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## eBooksHabit (Mar 5, 2012)

I, like others, wonder why the owner of the service is spending so much time on trying to disprove the e-mail, talking about the headers, etc... instead of explaining exactly how he gets his downloads so potential users can evaluate whether it is legitimate or not.


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## Nicholas Andrews (Sep 8, 2011)

eBooksHabit said:


> I, like others, wonder why the owner of the service is spending so much time on trying to disprove the e-mail, talking about the headers, etc... instead of explaining exactly how he gets his downloads so potential users can evaluate whether it is legitimate or not.


I think we all know the answer to that.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Sure it can. They can hide in the fine print that you have to stand on one foot while you read their TOS. Cheesy
> 
> But if you break Google, Amazon, or any other company's TOS then they have the right to terminate your account. Their house. Their rules. And if you do something on their site that they deem unethical because it goes against their rules then they can ban your account.


Agree. They can terminate accounts for all kinds of reasons. But ethical vs non-ethical is not easy to determine via the TOS. Criminalizing violation of TOS was major factor in the opposition to SOPA.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

CDF said:


> Anyway, my angle is...this service to me is more or less paying $300-something to be guaranteed #1 in the freebies. No other services were really getting these kind of guaranteed results. I would think it would bother Amazon that $300 at a questionable service guarantees you prime real estate on Amazon's site and that if this sort of thing got out, it would definitely put readers and advertisers in an uproar. What would you (hypothetical "you"...it could be anybody reading this) think if Amazon sold $300 slots to be shown number 1 in their freebie rankings? I'm not describing it very well, but if Amazon was selling those slots...there's no way it would fly, right?


I'll take a shot at your question. I suspect that Amazon may already sell some type of advertising or visibility on their website. I don't know this for sure. That said, if Amazon sold $300 slots to guarantee top slots on the freebie list, then it would probably cheapen the value of the bestseller's list in the eyes of readers but only if they knew about it. But on the other hand I don't know if this is really relevant to the discussion at hand. My biggest concern is that a service that some of our kboard members used is now jeopardizing their status with Amazon. I'm just glad that it's come to light, and that's one of the reasons I really appreciate Kboards.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And yet I've never seen an app that guarantees a specific number. They generally hedge their statements in averages, not absolutes.


It's not stated publicly. It's a private "auction" arrangement between the advertiser and the ad vendor generating incentivized downloads. You get as many downloads as you're willing to pay for basically as long as you don't outstrip their inventory (which isn't typically feasible because it would result in insane cost per install due to the auction format.)



> And besides, if they WERE incentivizing the customers, that is still a violation of the TOS. You are paying people to download a book. This is an artificial manipulation of the algorithms. So in the end it is six of one, half a dozen of the other.


Oh yes. Never intended to intimate otherwise. I'm just discussing precisely how I believe it's being done and why it would have been difficult for Amazon to initially notice, not whether it's a legitimate method.


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## MonaM (Jan 13, 2014)

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> I'll take a shot at your question. I suspect that Amazon may already sell some type of advertising or visibility on their website. I don't know this for sure. That said, if Amazon sold $300 slots to guarantee top slots on the freebie list, then it would probably cheapen the value of the bestseller's list in the eyes of readers but only if they knew about it. But on the other hand I don't know if this is really relevant to the discussion at hand. My biggest concern is that a service that some of our kboard members used is now jeopardizing their status with Amazon. I'm just glad that it's come to light, and that's one of the reasons I really appreciate Kboards.


My suspicion is that Amazon doesn't need to sell most of their visibility in terms of the sales/freebie list. I suspect some of the big publishers/accounts get deals for space, banners, that sort of thing.

I'm really glad Kindle emailed people using the service before they started sanctioning accounts.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Posting just to add the obvious:

Zomg, a scammy sounding service from the very beginning, that multiple people here tore apart, turns out to actually BE a scammy service that Amazon's threatening to shut down accounts over?

The shock. The horror. The utter baffling nature of it all drops my jaw to the floor. If only we'd had warning! If only people could have read that original thread and used a shred of proper judgment, but how could they not have been fooled? A random email from a random Amazon kdp agent supposedly said it was okay!

Seriously, though, I'm glad you didn't get your account banned or anything Mo.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Stepping in here, even though it's 5:30am where I am and I should be going back to sleep.

As I said earlier, let's not point fingers at members who tried the service in good faith.  A question was asked of KDP and answered by KDP, David.  Who were they supposed to get a response from, Jeff Bezos?

I'm also glad none of the several members who tried the service got their accounts pulled and am glad Monique posted about it.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

I, for one, am glad to see stuff like this shut down. The less artificial gaming of the system the better because when one person starts gaming it, it means we all have to do it in order to compete.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Katie Elle said:


> I, for one, am glad to see stuff like this shut down. The less artificial gaming of the system the better because when one person starts gaming it, it means we all have to do it in order to compete.


Yeah, but it's not shut down. Unwary authors will still hear about it elsewhere and keep using it. 
Eventually Amazon WILL start making good on their threat, possibly resulting in another round of overwrought blog posts and articles about the evils of self-publishing.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Quiss said:


> Yeah, but it's not shut down. Unwary authors will still hear about it elsewhere and keep using it.
> Eventually Amazon WILL start making good on their threat, possibly resulting in another round of overwrought blog posts and articles about the evils of self-publishing.


Well, but there's not much we can do about that.

Several members tried it -- in good faith, as Betsy notes -- with their eyes wide open. Many also reported good results, initially. Some reported a subsequent drop off. Some said they were happy enough with the results -- which were as promised: higher ranking -- that they said they'd try it again.

But NOW, it seems, Amazon has decided it's NOT copacetic. And the title of this thread is searchable so anyone who does a modicum of checking will find it. So one can only hope that people will do their due diligence and make decisions based on all the facts. Clearly members here are now aware and several who'd been satisfied users will now no longer use it. They've said as much here.

You all are also welcome to share your thoughts and opinions on your own pages -- though I'd caution you not to pull quotes from HERE without getting the o.k. of the poster.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I just rummaged around my spam filter folders on my email accounts, which I usually don't bother with.
It's amazing how many dodgy-sounding publishing-related messages end up there. Vanity presses, writing awards, and sites promising to make you an overnight sensation for the low low fee of $395. 
All old-hat stuff to us, but undoubtedly enticing for new authors with stars in their eyes.
The vultures are circling. Caveat emptor.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Quiss said:


> I just rummaged around my spam filter folders on my email accounts, which I usually don't bother with.
> It's amazing how many dodgy-sounding publishing-related messages end up there. Vanity presses, writing awards, and sites promising to make you an overnight sensation for the low low fee of $395.
> All old-hat stuff to us, but undoubtedly enticing for new authors with stars in their eyes.
> The vultures are circling. Caveat emptor.


When I first started writing umpteen years ago, I was lucky enough to find a newsgroup (that's how long ago it was) that outed a lot of these scammers. There was one editing service that got kickbacks from agents and small presses for recommending them and charged $5K to edit a book. Another was an agent that charged for representation, and they dug him up every time he tried to change his agency's name. Thank goodness for that group and now for KB.


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks, Estelle, and other members who have posted here about their experiences with FBS.  

Betsy


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Estelle Ryan said:


> I've been away from my computer for some time and when I checked my emails today, I'd received the same email from KDP as Monique. I can't say that I was surprised. I was one of the three people who tried out the FSB service in December. I had already decided, just after the test promo, that I won't use FSB's service again, simply because it seemed too much like manipulating the system to me. I'm very saddened that my account has been flagged in any way because of this. It's making me extremely cautious to ever try a new company again, which means it will make it extremely difficult for new companies to win my/our trust.
> 
> My experience with FSB itself has been good and not-good. Good: they responded to my emails very quickly and were respectful. Not-good: They promoted my book before I even had time to communicate with them about possible promo dates; without asking my permission (and without my knowledge), they posted on their website a screenshot I'd taken of an email response I'd received from Amazon saying the downloads came from 'real customers' - that screenshot had been taken for the discussion we were having here. Although, these things alone were not the deal breakers. It was all of the issues mentioned up-thread, but mostly my personal fear that my integrity might be negatively affected that made me step away from them.


Estelle, thank you for telling us what happened to you.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I am asking FreeBookService.com  publicly in this forum to take down any reference to my books or my name, or any endorsements because they have not answered my email personally to do so. Amazon has now indicated that their service is not on the up and up, and I am not advocating using them.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Seems they're still linking back to Al Stevens's kboards thread, "Free Book Service results," for testimony about the efficacy of the service on their blog. I'd recommend anyone who tried this service also check this page in case they used any of your "results" comments.

I haven't seen Al commenting here, so I PM'd him to make sure he's aware of this thread.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> Seems they're still linking back to Al Stevens's kboards thread, "Free Book Service results," for testimony about the efficacy of the service on their blog. I'd recommend anyone who tried this service also check this page in case they used any of your "results" comments.
> 
> I haven't seen Al commenting here, so I PM'd him to make sure he's aware of this thread.


Thank you, Saul. Here is the content of the email I sent to FBS:

_Please remove from your website the post I made to kboards.com. You did not ask for and I did not give to you permission to use that content. Be advised that such postings are not automatically in the public domain just by virtue of having appeared on a public forum, and your use of them without permission violates copyright law.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Al Stevens_

I would think that KBoards management might similarly object to such usage of their content.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Criminentlies. I hope my action doesn't earn me 10,000 retaliatory one-star reviews.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I also did send an email to Amazon pointing out all the services I have used over the last few years so they can see I have a long record of advertising my book(s) and this is the first time this issue has come up. I also let them know, I would not use the service again since they had asked us not to.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

What is the difference between a paid advertisement and this "service"?

The purpose of a paid advertisement, whether it is Bookbub or a banner ad here on KB or a commercial, is to raise awareness of your product with your customer demographic. Advertising is a completely legitimate business practice. It is the only way people will know your product existed.

This service, on the other hand, was not about raising awareness of your product with your customer demographic. It was about artificially inflating your number of downloads to trick the system into thinking your book was more popular than it really is. In truth, there is no difference between this service and you yourself creating a thousands fake accounts to buy your own book. This service was not raising awareness with real customers. It was creating a lie.

I am unclear why this differentiation is difficult for some people. _Yes, other authors were in fact harmed_. The reason they were harmed is that there are only a fixed number of spots at the top of the rankings. If we assume the magic ranking is to be in the top 100, for example, there are *ONLY 100 SPOTS*! That is a fixed amount. If someone used this service to artificially inflate their numbers to get into the top 100, that means a legitimate author was pushed out of the top 100. This service, in effect, allowed you to jump in line in front of other authors who were actually trying to get real customers to read their book.

My philosophy is simple. Engage in no action that you would not want to see universally adopted. Think through what would happen if everyone used fake services like this to artificially inflate their downloads. What would happen to the value of the ranking system? What would happen to the Amazon algorithms? All services like this do is create an "arms race" in which more and more downloads are needed to get the same result, and eventually the only way to win is to pay services like this to generate fake downloads for you.

We have already seen the results, time and time again, of what happens when a critical mass of people try to game the system. Remember how great tags were, until they got abused and Amazon removed them? How many times have you heard customers say they no longer trust Amazon reviews? We've had discussions here in the café about the fact that if you have too many five star reviews it looks suspicious!


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> What is the difference between a paid advertisement and this "service"?
> 
> The purpose of a paid advertisement, whether it is Bookbub or a banner ad here on KB or a commercial, is to raise awareness of your product with your customer demographic. Advertising is a completely legitimate business practice. It is the only way people will know your product existed.
> 
> ...


^This. I heart you, Julie...in a non-creepy way.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> What is the difference between a paid advertisement and this "service"?
> 
> The purpose of a paid advertisement, whether it is Bookbub or a banner ad here on KB or a commercial, is to raise awareness of your product with your customer demographic. Advertising is a completely legitimate business practice. It is the only way people will know your product existed.
> 
> ...


Ditto. It seemed not-OK at the time (no vetting/curation + big payment = guaranteed downloads That math doesn't work.) Very glad to know for sure, and thanks to all for sharing, and, yes, knowingly (emphasis on "knowingly") using a service like this isn't OK by me, either.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> What is the difference between a paid advertisement and this "service"?
> 
> The purpose of a paid advertisement, whether it is Bookbub or a banner ad here on KB or a commercial, is to raise awareness of your product with your customer demographic. Advertising is a completely legitimate business practice. It is the only way people will know your product existed.
> 
> This service, on the other hand, was not about raising awareness of your product with your customer demographic.


You were going on a *gut* feeling. Early responses from Amazon indicated the downloads were going to legitimate readers. My readership did go up.

When another legitimate advertising site first came out that we all use now, people had *concerns* about them too, as they seemed to pop up out of nowhere.

It's taken Amazon over two months to decide they are gaming the system. Your gut feeling may have been correct, but that still doesn't change the fact it was a gut feeling. Others' gut feelings on the _other_ service, which is legit and still widely used today, were wrong.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

FWIW, I don't see anything purported to be from either Al, Lisa, or Estelle any more on the site.  So, there's that.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> FWIW, I don't see anything purported to be from either Al, Lisa, or Estelle any more on the site. So, there's that.


Thank you Ann for checking


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## RoseInTheTardis (Feb 2, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> You were going on a *gut* feeling. Early responses from Amazon indicated the downloads were going to legitimate readers. My readership did go up.


They didn't, though. They indicated they were real accounts doing the downloads, not real readers. And when someone explained in more detail, they urged that person not to use the service: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,169160.msg2423659.html#msg2423659  That email was then ignored in the larger thread.

I'm not shocked at all that service that allows people to buy rankings isn't okay with Amazon. I'm just glad they finally cracked down on it. But I'm also glad they didn't remove people's accounts without a warning.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Thanks very much to those who tested the service, and I'm sorry it didn't work out, but at least we know now.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

RoseInTheTardis said:


> They didn't, though. They indicated they were real accounts doing the downloads, not real readers. And when someone explained in more detail, they urged that person not to use the service: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,169160.msg2423659.html#msg2423659  That email was then ignored in the larger thread.
> 
> I'm not shocked at all that service that allows people to buy rankings isn't okay with Amazon. I'm just glad they finally cracked down on it. But I'm also glad they didn't remove people's accounts without a warning.


All dls from any advertiser are from real accounts, so not getting your point. As I stated before, legitimate services have been questioned here before too; yes, on gut feelings. This in no way proved they were gaming the system.

The most likely way Amazon could see if they were gaming the system is to compare dls to purchases on these accounts. It takes data (patterns) to tell.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks let's not re-visit the discussions from the former thread.  

As has been said, folks who chose to take advantage of the service did so with full information, in good faith, and, in many cases, reported that they did get what they were promised. 

All that is in the PAST.  

The point, now, is that Amazon HAVE determined the service to be in violation of ToS, for sure, and, as such, kboards do NOT recommend their use and will not allow advertising or promotion by them in the future.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Folks let's not re-visit the discussions from the former thread.
> 
> As has been said, folks who chose to take advantage of the service did so with full information, in good faith, and, in many cases, reported that they did get what they were promised.
> 
> ...


Thank you Ann.  I've shared two years worth of my promo results here in the KBWC, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I would hope WCers take it with the spirit in which it was intended, to help you all make decisions by being transparent with my results.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

When we say "let's not revisit discussions from the former thread," that includes everyone.  Future posts pointing fingers at members who posted their results with FBS in earlier threads and posts responding to the finger pointing will be removed so as to not derail the thread.

Which is about the current status of FBS with Amazon, which is that it is against Amazon's TOS, per the emails multiple members, including Monique, have received..

Betsy


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## Sally C (Mar 31, 2011)

Thank you, Monique, for both trying out this service and also for reporting your email from Amazon.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Which is about the current status of FBS with Amazon, which is that it is against Amazon's TOS, per the emails multiple members, including Monique, have received..


I just spent some time trying to find the specific, expressed "service term" that FBS and its ilk violate. I'm not saying it isn't there, only that I couldn't find it. There are complicated and scattered "service terms" and "conditions of use," many of which include references to other restrictions, permissions, etc. (usually without links) that one must know about in order to believe one to be fully compliant. As I said, I didn't find this specific one.

I suspect that the folks at amazon are knee-jerking and improvisational and creative in coming up with ad hoc rules when faced with something they did not anticipate when they wrote the terms and conditions, which haven't been updated since 2012.

I didn't get my email yet. I wonder what I did right. 

I thank FBS for reacting to my request so promptly. My post being copied on their website looked dangerously like an endorsement, not a good thing to provide given amazon's scrutiny of the business's methods for securing downloads.

All this makes me sad that I finished my WIP this week. I don't have enough to do.

I add my thanks to Monique for calling attention to this issue.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> I just spent some time trying to find the specific, expressed "service term" that FBS and its ilk violate.


I think I already touched on this. But I'll try to explain it again. FBS itself did not violate the TOS because _it was never bound by the TOS_. They have no business agreement with Amazon. Amazon cannot bind a third-party that it does not have a business relationship with to a TOS. A TOS is on the head of the actual USER.

For example, in the Amazon TOS for Select, you are not supposed to publish your book on other sites. If you publish your book on Smashwords, Smashwords is not the one in violation of the Select TOS. YOU ARE. Amazon doesn't send a nasty email to Mark Coker telling him to remove the book. They will contain you. My TOS with ACX says that I cannot sell the audiobooks on third-party sites if I select royalty-share. If I upload that audiobook to Drivethrufiction, Drivethru is not the party violating the TOS. Amazon has no recourse with them. Amazon comes after me.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think I already touched on this. But I'll try to explain it again. FBS itself did not violate the TOS because _it was never bound by the TOS_. They have no business agreement with Amazon. Amazon cannot bind a third-party that it does not have a business relationship with to a TOS. A TOS is on the head of the actual USER.


Then let me be more specific (and more accurate). I did not find the "service term" or "condition of use" that places me as an "actual USER" in violation if I use a service such as FBS. That's what I was looking for.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Al Stevens said:


> Then let me be more specific (and more accurate). I did not find the "service term" or "condition of use" that places me as an "actual USER" in violation if I use a service such as FBS. That's what I was looking for.


You're looking for the, "can't artificially manipulate rankings via clickfarms while using KDP" rule? Maybe it's implied in the same way that hacking into the Amazon servers to put all your books at the top of the bestseller lists without having actual sales would be frowned upon.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> Then let me be more specific (and more accurate). I did not find the "service term" or "condition of use" that places me as an "actual USER" in violation if I use a service such as FBS. That's what I was looking for.


Under License and Access



> No Amazon Service, nor any part of any Amazon Service, may be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or *otherwise exploited* for any commercial purpose without express written consent of Amazon.


An exploit would be any hack, program, or service designed to circumvent or manipulate Amazon's systems in a way they were not intended. Use of FBS exploits the Amazon algorithms for commercial gain outside the parameters that Amazon has approved. From where I'm sitting, it should have been clear immediately the FBS could not possibly be delivering legitimate readers if they were guaranteeing X number of downloads. But maybe this is why Amazon is just sending emails and not banning accounts outright. They are giving people the benefit of the doubt, assuming the user of the service did not know that the service was using artificial tools. But now that you DO know that Amazon considers FBS an exploit or manipulation, they expect you not to continue using it.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Under License and Access
> 
> An exploit would be any hack, program, or service designed to circumvent or manipulate Amazon's systems in a way they were not intended. Use of FBS exploits the Amazon algorithms for commercial gain outside the parameters that Amazon has approved. From where I'm sitting, it should have been clear immediately the FBS could not possibly be delivering legitimate readers if they were guaranteeing X number of downloads. But maybe this is why Amazon is just sending emails and not banning accounts outright. They are giving people the benefit of the doubt, assuming the user of the service did not know that the service was using artificial tools. But now that you DO know that Amazon considers FBS an exploit or manipulation, they expect you not to continue using it.


Thanks for pointing this out. This is exactly why I have reached out to amazon to get more details from them, and I will modify the service if required by Amazon to be within their ToS.

I have no interest in risking anybody's accounts. At the moment I don't think there is any ToS being broken, but of course, amazon changes their ToS all the time. (Permafree books anybody?).

Hopefully I can open a dialogue with amazon and get more concrete answers, as well as get them to approve my service. Im not sure if they approve 3rd party services, but that is what I will be going for here.


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

I wasn’t going to post this publicly but I think it needs to be said. The problem with this whole fiasco isn’t so much Free Book Service per se, but the fact that whatever it is they are doing can be done at all. That means other programmer-hacker type people can build it, too. And some of those won’t be intending on selling the service but using it to take out competitors. Some of you bright-eyed innocent tykes will see my post as nothing but paranoid fear-mongering, no doubt.

Take it from an old internet pro whose been around and seen a lot. Where there’s money being made, unscrupulous programmer-hacker type people show up. I mean, you authors who got the letter from Amazon. I’m not saying this will happen, but what if Free Book Service decides to just blast your free book again without your permission? You lose your KDP account? That’s pretty dang scary if you ask me.

If others build this technology and start multi-blasting perma-free books to get competitor’s KDP accounts taken down, what kind of chaos will result? Amazon seems pretty slow to react to this kind of thing if you ask me. Eventually they will catch on, yes. But what a mess it will be. I posted on the original Free Book Service thread that this could be what forces the end of free eBooks at Amazon at all, and was basically laughed at. I still see it as a very real, perhaps necessary, outcome. 

Personally I have decided to use 99-cents as the top of my funnel, not perma-free. Going forward I see too much risk in offering free books.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

Arkan9 said:


> I wasn't going to post this publicly but I think it needs to be said. The problem with this whole fiasco isn't so much Free Book Service per se, but the fact that whatever it is they are doing can be done at all. That means other programmer-hacker type people can build it, too. And some of those won't be intending on selling the service but using it to take out competitors. Some of you bright-eyed innocent tykes will see my post as nothing but paranoid fear-mongering, no doubt.
> 
> Take it from an old internet pro whose been around and seen a lot. Where there's money being made, unscrupulous programmer-hacker type people show up. I mean, you authors who got the letter from Amazon. I'm not saying this will happen, but what if Free Book Service decides to just blast your free book again without your permission? You lose your KDP account? That's pretty dang scary if you ask me.
> 
> ...


You are actually correct in your assumptions. I have heard of internet marketers doing this to their competition, except for with the goal of having certain high ranked websites de-ranked due to excessive artificial manipulation of link building.

Let us hope that the same thing doesn't happen with free books, because the tool that Free Book Service is using could be incredibly dangerous/career destroying in the wrong hands. To their credit, that doesn't appear to be their intentions. They've found a way to game the system and want to profit off of it for as long as possible. Destroying their own business model won't do them any good.

I don't think that free books will ever go away. It's too much of a successful marketing strategy that creates a sales funnel to paid books. However, I do think that a lot of people are going to get hurt along the way to Amazon figuring out a way to keep services like this from manipulating the system.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Under License and Access
> ...
> An exploit would be any hack, program, or service designed to circumvent or manipulate Amazon's systems in a way they were not intended.


Assuming the intentions are published.



> Use of FBS exploits the Amazon algorithms for commercial gain outside the parameters that Amazon has approved.


Not unless they make the algorithms and the parameters public. One could inadvertently manipulate the algorithms, for example, but if the algorithms are a moving and hidden target...



> From where I'm sitting, it should have been clear immediately the FBS could not possibly be delivering legitimate readers if they were guaranteeing X number of downloads.


I think that was clear from the git-go. But that was that other thread, so I won't address it further.



> But maybe this is why Amazon is just sending emails and not banning accounts outright. They are giving people the benefit of the doubt, assuming the user of the service did not know that the service was using artificial tools.


I believe that is true.



> But now that you DO know that Amazon considers FBS an exploit or manipulation, they expect you not to continue using it.


That suggests that amazon depends on KBoards to inform their user base. I don't believe that. What about all those potential users who are not privy to this discussion? How is amazon communicating this interpretation of their service terms to them? I wonder whether they dare bring this issue into the public eye.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Al Stevens said:


> That suggests that amazon depends on KBoards to inform their user base. I don't believe that. What about all those potential users who are not privy to this discussion? How is amazon communicating this interpretation of their service terms to them? I wonder whether they dare bring this issue into the public eye.


Well, no.

It seems to me that Amazon noticed something, traced the data/results to use of this service, and is sending emails to those who have done so. THEY are informing authors in violation by basically giving them a warning.

I've no doubt they monitor these boards -- we're the biggest kindle fan site on the net, after all, not even considering the popularity of the WC -- but they are not 'depending on us' to inform their user base. They're sending emails.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> Assuming the intentions are published.


No. There comes a certain point where common sense is understood.

If I walk into a building a see a NO SMOKING sign, I know what that means. I wouldn't think it was OK to light the cigarette on fire in a ceramic dish and inhale the smoke. I would still be in violation of the NO SMOKING sign even if I wasn't smoking the cigarette from my mouth. I can't argue with a straight face that since the sign did not specify burning the cigarette in a bowl that I should be allowed to do it. Common sense!

If I see a sign that says Don't Drink and Drive, do I really need them to specify that they are talking about alcoholic beverages and not coffee? Or can I use common sense?

When I am in the movie theatre and the screen flashes "Please silence your cell phones?" DO they also need to specify that people should be turning off their laptops, tablets, digital cameras, and any other device that they may have on them? Or should common sense come into play.

When I go to the city park to walk my dog and see a sign that says "Don't Feed the Animals" do they need to specify that they are only talking about wild animals in the park and not my own dog?

You and I do not need to know the specifics of Amazon's algorithms if we are running our business in a normal and customary manner. If I am actively promoting my book to customers, and I am trying to get customers to buy my book, I am not at risk of doing anything to Amazon's algorithms. I'm just attracting customers. What could you possibly need Amazon to spell out in their intention? Do you think they WANT thousands of fake accounts cluttering up their services? Does that strike you as an intelligent way of doing business? Should not common sense dictate that Amazon's intention is for its algorithms to accurately reflect the buying patterns of their own users?

Why in the name of all that is good and holy should Amazon have to spell out the intention of their algorithms? What do you think is the intention of algorithms to begin with if not to accurately predict customer behavior!?


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Why ... should Amazon have to spell out the intention of their algorithms?


They don't, obviously., but since gaming algorithms and their parameters is somehow equated to exploitation, maybe they should.



> What do you think is the intention of algorithms to begin with if not to accurately predict customer behavior!?


To influence it.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Monique said:


> _"It recently came to our attention that you may have used the third-party site, www.FreeBookService.com, for your title, [My Book]. While we will always support legitimate efforts of KDP authors to promote their books, this site uses improper practices to artificially inflate sales ranking in the Kindle Store.
> 
> We take activities that jeopardize the experience of our customers and other authors very seriously. We wanted you to be aware of the nature of www.FreeBookService.com's offering and ask that you not work with them or other services that attempt to manipulate the KDP platform. If this activity continues, we will have to take appropriate action (which may include removing your title from Amazon and/or terminating your account)."_


I'm not sure why this is not clear. 
FreeBookService.com uses "improper practices to artificially inflate sales rankings." Amazon has clearly investigated and tracked the source of the massive amounts of downloads. Amazon feels that FBS is attempting to "manipulate the KDP platform."

If you use the service, Amazon is warning that they will terminate your account.

Not seeing how any if this can be interpreted any other way.

And sheesh, are a bunch of free downloads worth the risk? Who gives a crap if your book is ranked in the FREE store? If those free books are being downloaded and read it makes a lot of sense. 
Having thousands of downloads by bots or someone with no intention of reading it? Not so much sense.

Getting your KDP account suspended? Also not a smart move.

I'm glad Amazon chose to warn instead of go right to suspension. Monique is above reproach and I am frankly disgusted with FBS continuing to imply any wrong doing on her part.

I fear for the authors who do not come to KBoards. They will be the ones to lose. At least we have members here looking out for each other.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

ebbrown said:


> Monique is above reproach and I am frankly disgusted with FBS continuing to imply any wrong doing on her part.


Absolutely. I think you're speaking for most of us who have posted in this thread. Certainly for me, anyway.



ebbrown said:


> I fear for the authors who do not come to KBoards. They will be the ones to lose. At least we have members here looking out for each other.


Yes - this thread (and the fact that it was started and accommodated here) speaks very highly of the forum.

It will be interesting to see whether they continue to market that service on their own website, or elsewhere, now knowing that their prospective customers might lose their KDP accounts for using it?


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

zoe tate said:


> Absolutely. I think you're speaking for most of us who have posted in this thread. Certainly for me, anyway.
> 
> Yes - this thread (and the fact that it was started and accommodated here) speaks very highly of the forum.
> 
> It will be interesting to see whether they continue to market that service on their own website, or elsewhere, now knowing that their prospective customers might lose their KDP accounts for using it?


We've already discussed that we are reaching out to amazon... sadly, its a saturday and I wouldn't expect a response until monday at the earliest. If there is something to do with our service that is in some way outside of their ToS, we will work with them to fix it. We are not here to risk peoples accounts, and that is not the intention.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

ebbrown said:


> And sheesh, are a bunch of free downloads worth the risk?


Certainly not worth the risk now that we know what the risk is.



> Who gives a crap if your book is ranked in the FREE store?


That has been shown to have positive results. But that's off topic. And, as you say, knowing the risks...


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

David J Normoyle said:


> You're looking for the, "can't artificially manipulate rankings via clickfarms while using KDP" rule? Maybe it's implied in the same way that hacking into the Amazon servers to put all your books at the top of the bestseller lists without having actual sales would be frowned upon.


Terms of service specifically apply to users of the service. Hacking Amazon servers is not specific to use of any Amazon service. Everyone is prohibited from such hacking, redgardless of their use of the service. So I would say hacking is not implied in the TOS.

It's reasonable to look at what the TOS actually says, and it's reasonable to follow Amazon guidance if there is a question. There have actually been instances in the past where Amazon did not agree with KB posters regarding what was prohibited by the TOS.


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## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

freebookservice said:


> We've already discussed that we are reaching out to amazon... sadly, its a saturday and I wouldn't expect a response until monday at the earliest. If there is something to do with our service that is in some way outside of their ToS, we will work with them to fix it. We are not here to risk peoples accounts, and that is not the intention.


Just dumbfounded that you are still acting the victim. Have you alerted your customer base? Because I see no activity on your WSO thread. Are you just hoping to find another entry level CSR to give the ambiguous thumbs up? Or are you going to lay out your entire business for the Compliance team? I'm in Legal/Compliance in the day job (not Amazon) and I know that I'd be asking to see everything. That's why I've been so against this from the beginning...just a bunch of questions with no answers.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

CDF said:


> Just dumbfounded that you are still acting the victim. Have you alerted your customer base? Because I see no activity on your WSO thread. Are you just hoping to find another entry level CSR to give the ambiguous thumbs up? Or are you going to lay out your entire business for the Compliance team? I'm in Legal/Compliance in the day job (not Amazon) and I know that I'd be asking to see everything. That's why I've been so against this from the beginning...just a bunch of questions with no answers.


I've emailed kdp compliance and awaiting an answer from them.

Amazon hasn't asked us for anything as they have not even contacted us. I don't know if its in their purview to vet 3rd party services, but we'll have to see what they say.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> Certainly not worth the risk now that we know what the risk is.
> 
> That has been shown to have positive results. But that's off topic. And, as you say, knowing the risks...


Yeah, I should clarify. I know free books are a great tool- if it is a real reader downloading it, liking it, and going on to buy more of your books. I just think the ranking means nothing if it's not from potential readers. Buying guaranteed clicks is, well, buying clicks. Hope that makes sense.   (and yeah, off topic)


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

ebbrown said:


> Yeah, I should clarify. I know free books are a great tool- if it is a real reader downloading it, liking it, and going on to buy more of your books. I just think the ranking means nothing if it's not from potential readers. Buying guaranteed clicks is, well, buying clicks. Hope that makes sense.   (and yeah, off topic)


The reason people got good results from using FBS is that being high on the free best-sellers list puts your books in front of real shoppers browsing the list. So 1) the click-farm downloads get you high on the list; 2) real shoppers see your book at the top of the list and think, "Hey, this must be great -- it's really popular!"; 3) they download it; 4) some of the Step 3 folks actually read the book and, if they like it, buy more of your books. That last step can bring in income and grow your readership. A little. It might look like this:
- You buy 10,000 downloads from FBS; they all happen in a day, throwing you way up the list.
- 7,000 real people see your book at the top of the free list and download it.
- 1,500 of the 7,000 read the book.
- 75 of the 1,500 buy the second book the series (5% sell-though).
- 30 join your mailing list.
- 10 leave reviews.
- KDP bans you.
- Oops!


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

freebookservice said:


> I've emailed kdp compliance and awaiting an answer from them.
> 
> Amazon hasn't asked us for anything as they have not even contacted us. I don't know if its in their purview to vet 3rd party services, but we'll have to see what they say.


1. You keep claiming that you don't expect to hear from Amazon until Monday. Why? They aren't a bank. Their customer service is open 24/7. I have commonly had questions answered over the weekend. In fact, they even have *live chat *and* call us *options if you go through their Help system. Personally, if I just found out that my business was being blacklisted by Amazon, I wouldn't be wasting my time waiting around until Monday. I would be in a live chat or on the phone.

By the gods, if I found out Amazon was blacklisting my company to my customers and I knew I was innocent,* I would SHUT UP ONLINE and FIND A LAWYER.* If you are really innocent, then Amazon committed libel against you! You should have a iron-clad case! Instead of twittling your thumbs claiming you are waiting until money while your reputation gets flushed down the toilet, why aren't you taking legal steps to protect yourself?

2. You've already been told they don't vet 3rd party services. It is even in their TOS, which you claim to know:



> OTHER BUSINESSES
> 
> Parties other than Amazon operate stores, provide services, or sell product lines on this site. In addition, we provide links to the sites of affiliated companies and certain other businesses. *We are not responsible for examining or evaluating*, and we do not warrant the offerings of, any of these businesses or individuals or the content of their Web sites. *Amazon does not assume any responsibility or liability for the actions, product, and content of all these and any other third parties*. You should carefully review their privacy statements and other conditions of use.


There is similar wording on other parts of the site.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> 1. You keep claiming that you don't expect to hear from Amazon until Monday. Why? They aren't a bank. Their customer service is open 24/7. I have commonly had questions answered over the weekend. In fact, they even have *live chat *and* call us *options if you go through their Help system. Personally, if I just found out that my business was being blacklisted by Amazon, I wouldn't be wasting my time waiting around until money. I would be in a live chat or on the phone.
> 
> By the gods, if I found out Amazon was blacklisting my company to my customers and I knew I was innocent,* I would SHUT UP ONLINE and FIND A LAWYER.* If you are really innocent, then Amazon committed libel against you! You should have a iron-clad case! Instead of twittling your thumbs claiming you are waiting until money while your reputation gets flushed down the toilet, why aren't you taking legal steps to protect yourself?
> 
> ...


1. If I get an email back before monday then that is great. I don't want to argue over how fast amazon may or may not reply to my email.

2. I dont really claim to know every inch of amazon's ToS. Im not a lawyer. I do not believe that I am breaking the ToS in any way, _but thats why I sent them an email_, so I can get a clarified answer, and if there IS a problem, I will rectify that and be within their ToS.

If amazon doesn't vet third parties, why did they in the first place say the service was OK, and then now, send another email and say it isn't? Wouldn't that be considered vetting? Theres probably no point stating this, because neither me nor you knows, only amazon does and you and I would simply be guessing.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> [...] I wouldn't be wasting my time waiting around until money."


Hereby nominating Julie for Freudian slip typo of the year. FBS seems to be all about stretching a finite game out as long as possible.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Hereby nominating ***** for Freudian slip typo of the year. FBS seems to be all about stretching a finite game out as long as possible.


This is why I use a proofreader for my books.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2014)

freebookservice said:


> If amazon doesn't vet third parties, why did they in the first place say the service was OK, and then now, send another email and say it isn't? Wouldn't that be considered vetting? Theres probably no point stating this, because neither me nor you knows, only amazon does and you and I would simply be guessing.


I still have not seen any proof they told you the service was OK. I saw some emails saying that Amazon stated that the downloads came from Amazon accounts. That is NOT the same thing as saying that your service was OK.

Even the screenshot of the email you have on your website is suspicious because we don't even know what question was asked. All Amazon said was that the downloads came from Amazon accounts. But as has already been stated about five dozen times in this thread, Amazon accounts do not equal real readers by default. You could have five hundred fake accounts. You could be employing spyware or malware to download from other people's computers. You could have your buddies over at Warrior Forum downloading for you just to meet your quota. So Amazon telling anyone that the downloads came from Amazon accounts doesn't mean anything, and it certainly doesn't mean they approved your program.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This is why I use a proofreader for my books.


Good thing you don't here -- in this case, the typo reflects the truth!


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## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

I just looked at google and if you type in freebookservice.com the fourth link down is in fact kb and everyone there is _still_ advocating it.

Hopefully this thread will get pushed up further on the results but that thread is older. I don't know how SEO works.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Serena Walken said:


> I just looked at google and if you type in freebookservice.com the fourth link down is in fact kb and everyone there is _still_ advocating it.
> 
> Hopefully this thread will get pushed up further on the results but that thread is older. I don't know how SEO works.


That thread was almost entirely dedicated to ripping FBS a new one. A few people came on to say they thought it was okay and were going to use it, but they were a tiny minority.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

Just a thought, and to echo Julie here for a moment, but why don't you call Amazon? I'm sure you could get someone on the phone ASAP, business to business, and figure it out... Or, are you not doing that because you already know what they're going to say? 

I just visited your site, there is no mention that you are "holding" any further orders until this is cleared up and there is no mention anywhere that Amazon is threatening to cull accounts of authors uses your service. So, on one hand you're saying "I don't want to jeopardize anyone" but on the other hand, you're mums the word about the fact that you ARE jeopardizing anyone who signs up who may not be a member of KB and not understand/know what is going on.

I think you could take a lesson from D2D's playbook and have complete transparency with your customers. I mean, really, it's just the ethical thing to do.


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

It appears they have shuttered their FB page, at least for the moment. This link: https://www.facebook.com/freebookservice is still up on their "Contact Us" page, but the link is broken.


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Under License and Access
> 
> An exploit would be any hack, program, or service designed to circumvent or manipulate Amazon's systems in a way they were not intended. Use of FBS exploits the Amazon algorithms for commercial gain outside the parameters that Amazon has approved. From where I'm sitting, it should have been clear immediately the FBS could not possibly be delivering legitimate readers if they were guaranteeing X number of downloads. But maybe this is why Amazon is just sending emails and not banning accounts outright. They are giving people the benefit of the doubt, assuming the user of the service did not know that the service was using artificial tools. But now that you DO know that Amazon considers FBS an exploit or manipulation, they expect you not to continue using it.


Just to clarify - "exploited" in legal contracts, T&Cs etc means to "use for commercial gain", not to "exploit" in traditional sense of the word (ie - take advantage of). This line bears no relation to services like FBS. Doesn't change my opinion of "services" like these however tho. I just wanted to nip in the bud any accusations of contravening any Amazon T&Cs based on that particular term.

Note - My last law unit was 17 years ago so no warranties given etc etc


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

freebookservice said:


> I do not believe that I am breaking the ToS in any way


That isn't what it's about.

Amazon's Terms of Service don't apply to you because you're not the party with the contract with Amazon. The problem here is that *PEOPLE USING YOUR SERVICE* are breaking the terms of service imposed on them by *THEIR* contracts with Amazon.

It's not about you. It's about your customers.

Amazon states openly and repeatedly that they're not responsible for evaluating any third-party services like yours (why would they be?). So much for your earlier claim (which nobody here believed) that you were "approved" by them.

Are you continuing to sell the service while you're allegedly waiting to hear from Amazon (who have absolutely no obligation to reply to you at all, I'd have thought)?


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

freebookservice said:


> We've already discussed that we are reaching out to amazon... sadly, its a saturday and I wouldn't expect a response until monday at the earliest. If there is something to do with our service that is in some way outside of their ToS, we will work with them to fix it. We are not here to risk peoples accounts, and that is not the intention.


I'm no lawyer, but if somebody has their account terminated because of your service, and it turns out that you weren't honest with your clients, then I'm pretty sure that's basis for a lawsuit.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2014)

K.B. Nelson said:


> I'm no lawyer, but if somebody has their account terminated because of your service, and it turns out that you weren't honest with your clients, then I'm pretty sure that's basis for a lawsuit.


If they promoted the service claiming that the downloads were coming from legitimate readers, and it turns out they were using click farms and sock puppets, that is not only breach of contract, but I suspect the FTC would get involved.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

I keep checking this thread occasionally, hoping to see an apology to Monique. Did I miss it in the many pages, or has there really not been one made?


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

shelleyo1 said:


> I keep checking this thread occasionally, hoping to see an apology to Monique. Did I miss it in the many pages, or has there really not been one made?


I think Monique has a better chance at winning Powerball.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2014)

shelleyo1 said:


> I keep checking this thread occasionally, hoping to see an apology to Monique. Did I miss it in the many pages, or has there really not been one made?


Nope. You didn't miss anything. He just "doubled-down" on the victimhood persona.

Oh, insofar as waiting until Monday to get a response from Amazon:

Earlier today, I emailed Amazon about another matter (I reported a site selling reviews). Within less then TWO HOURS I got a reply saying that they were forwarding the issue to their Investigative Team and would be contacting me for more information. TWO HOURS TO GET A REPLY. So Amazon is obviously up and running this weekend and answering concerns quickly.

Can't imagine why FBS hasn't heard back when he emailed them Friday...


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Oh yeah, I can just see Amazon sending this WF'r an approval email. Maybe it'll have a nice gold seal and a badge too. Maybe a commendation. The Kindle Dominators, what a thread   I'm sure Amazon will just love that page too. 

The funniest thing is that Amazon can look and know not only where they were downloaded, but can see if any of these thousands of downloaded ebooks have even been read, at what speed, and will know. Hope he gets his email out early tonight so when Amazon opens up bright and early tomorrow he'll get a quick approval. I'm sure he's crafting that letter right now.  


EDIT: WOW Julie, so Amazon is open on a Sunday and real people are working there?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Nope. You didn't miss anything. He just "doubled-down" on the victimhood persona.
> 
> Oh, insofar as waiting until Monday to get a response from Amazon:
> 
> ...


Julie - I emailed Amazon also, yesterday, to the *correct department for this particular problem* which is the compliance department, and I have not received an answer yet. So, since you are dealing with a different department, you really can't compare your response time to his or mine.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Amazon is obviously up and running this weekend and answering concerns quickly.


It depends what they are, I think. Some Amazon customer service is actually outsourced at the weekends, to some kind of independent "help-desk" company - it's not their normal staff. Some things they can deal with more easily than others, I imagine. On the "waiting until Monday" point, FBS may actually be right, Julie. (If they're willing to reply to him.) That was why I wondered if he's still promoting his service, pending that.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Amazon is definitely up and running. I bought a saw blade and a book today. They managed to hit my bank account and send confirming emails. They even said the book was ready. I expect the saw blade Tuesday. They said it shipped already.

But if I had a policy question, I would wait until Monday to ask. That's because the folks with the authority to interpret it probably work Monday to Friday. 

Same with my bank. They are up and running, and managed to accept Amazon's charge. But if I had a question about an account, transfer, loan, etc, I'd probably wait until Monday.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2014)

Terrence OBrien said:


> But if I had a policy question, I would wait until Monday to ask.


And if I had a "OMG Amazon is sending out emails specifically blacklisting my company and my livelihood is on the line" question, I probably would have been calling them Friday when I found out about it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, this is beginning to make a lot of you look as bad as FBS.  You've had your say.  There's no point in repeating it ad nauseum.  This thread is important so that people can find this information but, if you haven't anything NEW to contribute, keep the fingers off the keyboard, eh?

Here's the thing: Monique got an email from Amazon -- and others later reported they did as well -- advising her that using this service is considered a violation of her ToS with Amazon.  That's important information for people to have and I think we all agree it was good of her to share this.  

If and when FBS gets any further information, I have no doubt he'll post.  Meanwhile, it is fairly nasty to keep poking.  So knock it off.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And if I had a "OMG Amazon is sending out emails specifically blacklisting my company and my livelihood is on the line" question, I probably would have been calling them Friday when I found out about it.


Sure. Friday is in the normal work week, and the people with the knowledge and authority to act are all there. Friday works as well as Monday.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Julie - I emailed Amazon also, yesterday, to the *correct department for this particular problem* which is the compliance department, and I have not received an answer yet. So, since you are dealing with a different department, you really can't compare your response time to his or mine.


I emailed Amazon on Friday, asking them about this, and I still haven't gotten a reply yet.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RM Prioleau said:


> I emailed Amazon on Friday, asking them about this, and I still haven't gotten a reply yet.


Well, maybe Friday isn't as good as Monday.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Any updates? FBS has been quiet, but I assume he must have heard back by now.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Any updates? FBS has been quiet, but I assume he must have heard back by now.


I still haven't heard anything back from Amazon yet about my question from Friday.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

UPDATE: I just received a response a few minutes ago. This is what the email said:



> Hello,
> 
> While we support the legitimate promotional efforts of our publishers, we have determined that www.FreeBookService.com's services manipulate Kindle sales rank. We take activities that jeopardize the experience of our customers and our publishers very seriously and may take action against publisher accounts that engage in sales rank manipulation.
> 
> ...


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## Paul Kohler (Aug 14, 2013)

Hmm... I guess the powers with the control deleted my last comment, so I'll say it again!  

Thanks for updating us RM! 

I'll skip the rest so as not to tick anyone off....


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## KarenNZ (May 2, 2013)

So I was another fool who used the FBS service early on. I was concerned as I did not receive the email mentioned by others in this thread so I emailed the compliance department on Friday and "confessed" as I didn't want my account to be banned.

Just received this email from them now:

_Thank you for your email and for letting us know about your prior use of www.FreeBookService.com's services. We appreciate your commitment to stop using methods that manipulate Kindle sales rank and will not hold your indicated use of FreeBookService.com against your account._

 That's me feeling relieved. I will definitely be more choosy about promotional methods in the future.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

KarenNZ said:


> So I was another fool who used the FBS service early on. I was concerned as I did not receive the email mentioned by others in this thread so I emailed the compliance department on Friday and "confessed" as I didn't want my account to be banned.
> 
> Just received this email from them now:
> 
> ...


That's good to hear! I'm glad that Amazon will not mess with your account


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

My guess is that, hopefully, all users will get a warning email before any action is taken.


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## KarenNZ (May 2, 2013)

RM Prioleau said:


> That's good to hear! I'm glad that Amazon will not mess with your account


Me too! If I'd waited a bit longer I would have seen how the original thread played out and been more suspicious. But it looked like a good thing so I wanted to jump on board before everyone else did. Lesson learned.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I just received this Amazon email in response to my email to the compliance department:



> 
> Today at 7:24 PM
> 
> Hello Lisa,
> ...


.

In my email to them I mentioned all the services I have used over the last three years to promote my Amazon books/links. And that I had used this service in good faith, just like all the others. This should answer anyone's concerns that it would be held against them, it won't.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> This should answer anyone's concerns that it would be held against them, it won't.


How many times did you use them? Once, twice, more? If you used them once, this may be your free pass...but what about the person who used them more than once?

Here's my concern with what you said ... Amazon didn't say "no one's account" ... they said _your account_ (semantics and what not). We don't know if/when/who will be effected by this (I'm just really happy that everyone here has had confirmation it won't be them!)...Amazon may decide to make someone "suffer the consequences" or they may not. I certainly hope not. I believe it was truly innocent mistake, I believe people trusted FBS and they went into the service with the best of intentions. Hindsight is always 20/20. But they have been pretty freaking clear that a line has been crossed. Do you know FBS is still taking on new clients? What happens to them? Knowing Amazon isn't going to give out free passes indefinitely. At least, I don't believe they will. I see the large amount of e-mails that have been sent out as a "warning."


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

AshMP said:


> How many times did you use them? Once, twice, more? If you used them once, this may be your free pass...but what about the person who used them more than once?
> 
> Here's my concern with what you said ... Amazon didn't say "no one's account" ... they said _your account_ (semantics and what not). We don't know if/when/who will be effected by this (I'm just really happy that everyone here has had confirmation it won't be them!)...Amazon may decide to make someone "suffer the consequences" or they may not. I certainly hope not. I believe it was truly innocent mistake, I believe people trusted FBS and they went into the service with the best of intentions. Hindsight is always 20/20. But they have been pretty freaking clear that a line has been crossed. Do you know FBS is still taking on new clients? What happens to them? Knowing Amazon isn't going to give out free passes indefinitely. At least, I don't believe they will. I see the large amount of e-mails that have been sent out as a "warning."


I'm not sure why you want to try to cause stress to those who may have used the service by posting such a negative response.

If anyone ever gets a warning from Amazon, they should contact them. 
As Amazon stated in their original email they are trying to *protect* authors (publishers) too. They informed us FBS is not welcome. I believe *Amazon is not trying to "ban" authors*. Maybe they will fix the programs that allow their system to be gamed, and at the same time maybe they will have their legal department step in to issue cease and desist orders to FBS. Either way, your fearmongering serves no purpose as those who don't know, still won't know, and those who happen upon this thread, will.

I can only conclude you enjoy stirring things up. 

No, I don't think it will be an ongoing problem, and no, I don't think they will try and ban honest people who are looking for a way to gain visibility of their books.


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## Romi (Apr 4, 2011)

The link to the Facebook page in their "Contact Us" section no longer works, but maybe that's been down for longer than when all this was revealed, I'm not sure. Would be much more comforting if they shut down the service altogether, now that we know (officially, in the eyes of the almighty Amazon) that it manipulates rank...shut it down please?...Bueller?


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2014)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> As Amazon stated in their original email they are trying to *protect* authors (publishers) too. They informed us FBS is not welcome. I believe *Amazon is not trying to "ban" authors*. Maybe they will fix the programs that allow their system to be gamed, and at the same time maybe they will have their legal department step in to issue cease and desist orders to FBS. Either way, your fearmongering serves no purpose as those who don't know, still won't know, and those who happen upon this thread, will.


I agree. I think Amazon doesn't want to mass-ban authors who used a service in good faith without knowing how the service worked. But I also think the strongest thing Amazon can do right now is to create a blacklist of services that violate the TOS. Have it pop up whenever you sign into KDP.

Update X-XX-XXXX



> Use of the following sites violate the KDP TOS.
> 
> blahblahblah.com
> someothersite.com
> ...


Once Amazon places a vendor on the list, any future use of that vendor would result in a ban, no questions. This stops the issue before it is even allowed to fester.

Amazon needs to start bringing down the hammer proactively, not reactively.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Once Amazon places a vendor on the list, any future use of that vendor would result in a ban, no questions. This stops the issue before it is even allowed to fester.


So if I'm the malicious sort, and want to see all your books pulled from Amazon, under your proposed system all I'd have to do is pay for the cheapest banned service and point it at one of your books? Scary.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Amazon probably won't publish lists of services that violate the TOS and must be avoided because of the potential for charges of unfair restraint of trade and monopolistic practices, their deep pockets notwithstanding. As several here pointed out earlier, the services themselves are not bound to Amazon's user TOS.

I guess the other side of that argument is that the service probably has an affiliate account in order to track (and prove) the number of downloads (their guarantee), so that could set them up for TOS violations.

Just speculating here. Interesting subject.


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## Kat Lilynette (Oct 12, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Folks, this is beginning to make a lot of you look as bad as FBS. You've had your say. There's no point in repeating it ad nauseum. This thread is important so that people can find this information but, if you haven't anything NEW to contribute, keep the fingers off the keyboard, eh?
> 
> Here's the thing: Monique got an email from Amazon -- and others later reported they did as well -- advising her that using this service is considered a violation of her ToS with Amazon. That's important information for people to have and I think we all agree it was good of her to share this.
> 
> If and when FBS gets any further information, I have no doubt he'll post. Meanwhile, it is fairly nasty to keep poking. So knock it off.


Not to be "that person" or to try and start anything, I'm just curious why KBoards moderators are protecting this person/service when it's been made abundantly clear that his service risks peoples' livelihoods with Amazon. I would think that a sub-forum such as this one, in which plenty of its posters depend on Amazon income to pay their bills, would not be so welcoming to people/services that risk one's Amazon publishing account - especially when it's been proven to be a scam.

Many, many people warned about this service beforehand and were told to keep it down without proof. Now that there is proof from Amazon itself, you still tell them to keep it down? You don't think your posters have a right to be outraged and express themselves to a service that Kboards allowed to be publicly promoted for weeks and weeks? Sure, they shouldn't point the fingers at Kboards, but you should respect your members enough to let them have their say toward the service and it's operator.

With the lying, manipulating, scamming, and risking peoples' livelihoods that he and his service carried on for weeks, this guy deserves what he gets, and moderators protecting the rightly accused just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Just my opinion.


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## Paul Kohler (Aug 14, 2013)

Kat Lilynette said:


> Not to be "that person" or to try and start anything, I'm just curious why KBoards moderators are protecting this person/service when it's been made abundantly clear that his service risks peoples' livelihoods with Amazon. I would think that a sub-forum such as this one, in which plenty of its posters depend on Amazon income to pay their bills, would not be so welcoming to people/services that risk one's Amazon publishing account - especially when it's been proven to be a scam.
> 
> Many, many people warned about this service beforehand and were told to keep it down without proof. Now that there is proof from Amazon itself, you still tell them to keep it down? You don't think your posters have a right to be outraged and express themselves to a service that Kboards allowed to be publicly promoted for weeks and weeks? Sure, they shouldn't point the fingers at Kboards, but you should respect your members enough to let them have their say toward the service and it's operator.
> 
> With the lying, manipulating, scamming, and risking peoples' livelihoods that he and his service carried on for weeks, this guy deserves what he gets, and moderators protecting the rightly accused just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Just my opinion.


I agree, but I suppose the moderators are here to keep things civil, despite deleting harmless threads...

In my eyes, FBS has nothing but bad things to offer us authors, and I for one think we should be able to express our feelings on the matter.


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## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

Pelagios said:


> So if I'm the malicious sort, and want to see all your books pulled from Amazon, under your proposed system all I'd have to do is pay for the cheapest banned service and point it at one of your books? Scary.


Yes, and this has been going on forever with Google and backlinks. Competitors could but a crap ton of bad back links to your site so Google would penalize you. But in the past year Google created the "disavow tool" which let's you disavow those links. Looks like Amazon is sort of allowing you to do the same.

All this has me thinking about how Hugh's authorearnings spider has caused Amazon to take a closer look at who is pinging their servers and such. I could be wrong, but I'm doubting that Amazon is very happy with that data being pulled. I love what Hugh is doing and I hope Amazon is going to let them keep pulling that data.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2014)

Pelagios said:


> So if I'm the malicious sort, and want to see all your books pulled from Amazon, under your proposed system all I'd have to do is pay for the cheapest banned service and point it at one of your books? Scary.


No, I didn't say that. I said that if you used it, you wouldn't be able to argue that you didn't know. I was addressing the old "ignorance of the law" defense.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> Amazon probably won't publish lists of services that violate the TOS and must be avoided because of the potential for charges of unfair restraint of trade and monopolistic practices, their deep pockets notwithstanding.


That horse is already out of the barn when Amazon is naming your name in emails.

Amazon is fully in their rights to state if use of a service by an author would put the author in violation. Retailers tell vendors all the time what kind of services they can and can't use. Did you know WalMart refuses to accept any delivery that is not on Chep pallets? They tell their vendors not to use any other pallet. It isn't an unfair restraint. It is their specifications if you want to do business with them. Did you know that Target provides an approved list of carriers you can use to ship them product? And if you send product with an unapproved carrier, they will refuse it and send it back (and then fine you for the violation?)


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Pelagios said:


> So if I'm the malicious sort, and want to see all your books pulled from Amazon, under your proposed system all I'd have to do is pay for the cheapest banned service and point it at one of your books? Scary.


Yes, that's probably so.

It's the same with Google and "spammy backlinks", unfortunately. People can and do indulge in "negative SEO" these days by paying someone on "Fiverr" to plant automated, software-created, spammy backlinks to a competitor's site, resulting in a major rankings penalty.

It was because of and in response to this very real problem that Google introduced their "link disavowal scheme" last year, so that innocent parties could rectify any damage done to them maliciously. Amazon are clearly being "human" about this, at least for the moment, anyway.

The situation here is *less* scary, though: there's a world of difference between a $5 gig on Fiverr and buying a service like this. Someone would have to be very malicious and willing to spend real money to get you into trouble with this one.

Hopefully, the "service" will stop trading soon, now that it's clearly established that it's counter-productive.

I keep asking FBS, in this thread, if he's stopped selling the service now we know, but he doesn't answer. It's a fair question, I think, in the circumstances?


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## Kat Lilynette (Oct 12, 2013)

zoe tate said:


> Hopefully, the "service" will stop trading soon, now that it's clearly established that it's counter-productive.
> 
> I keep asking FBS, in this thread, if he's stopped selling the service now we know, but he doesn't answer. It's a fair question, I think, in the circumstances?


Website still up, order buttons still working perfectly, so, considering it would take him mere minutes to disable the order page, I'd say it's pretty obvious he's still preying on the uninformed. Especially with him coming from Warrior Forum, him trying to claim complete ignorance, that he didn't know that Amazon would crack down on the service, is just laughable. As I've said from his very first thread, this service has always been a grab-and-dash, as most Warrior Forum scams are; Hit hard and fast, scam as many people as you can until you get shut down, then move onto the next scam. Everyone can post Amazon emails about warnings, or even account closures, and you can be sure this guy's service will still be accepting orders.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

The really scary thing is that FBS is so easy to replicate. Any Tom, Dick and Harriet with a passing knowledge of PHP/CURL or a copy of UBot, a free Tor client, and a cheap VPS can do exactly the same thing in a matter of hours. I wouldn't be surprised to see fiverr services similar to the Google-zapping ones pop up soon. 

As to a solution, Amazon need to either discount from their stats any free download that looks remotely iffy, or just do away with free top lists altogether.


----------



## Guest (Feb 26, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> Man, that's scummy as hell. I know it's not illegal because congressmen are on sale more often than used cars, but come on.


On the surface, it would seem that way. But in reality, it is all about increased proficiencies. For example, in the case of WalMart, ChEP guarantees the quality of their pallets. If a shipment arrives with damaged pallets, it takes time and money to manually unload and repalletize. With Target, the approved carriers have all agreed to certain core business practices, so that the people at the distribution centers can treat all carrier loads in the same fashion instead of having seven different sets of rules to follow. Even where I work, I have a list of approved vendors I am allowed to use because those vendors have been vetted by corporate and adhere to certain guidelines that help us stay in compliance and improve efficiencies.

So when you think about it in those terms, Amazon has every right to tell vendors that they can't use certain services that disrupt their efficiencies or business model.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> There's a huge difference between emails to a few customers and publicly announcing in a popup that customers may not use the services of another company. That difference would be measured in damages and would determine whether it's worth pursuing.
> 
> It isn't an unfair restraint. It is their specifications if you want to do business with them.
> 
> Tell that to Microsoft. http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/ms_index.htm


That isn't even remotely related to what we're talking about. The Microsoft case was an issue of a monopoly and self-referring. Amazon telling a vendor, "Do not use a service that artificially manipulates our software" is not a monopoly.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> That isn't even remotely related to what we're talking about. The Microsoft case was an issue of a monopoly and self-referring. Amazon telling a vendor, "Do not use a service that artificially manipulates our software" is not a monopoly.


You'll note that while you were typing, I was deleting the post you quoted. I see no on-topic point in pursuing it.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> AshMP said:
> 
> 
> > How many times did you use them? Once, twice, more? If you used them once, this may be your free pass...but what about the person who used them more than once?
> ...


Stirring things up? I thought Ashley was being generous in saying she "believe(s) it was truly innocent mistake" and that "people trusted FBS and ... went into the service with the best of intentions." After the 17 or whatever pages of the first FBS thread, and all the information David Adams turned up in particular, that's a pretty extremely incredibly generous assumption. Anyone who used the service _multiple times_ after the other 99% of us raised so many concerns (including the possibility of account closure) _should _be more worried about the situation than people who used it once. Hopefully there aren't very many people in that position, since the service is so expensive.


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

I think many are still missing an important point so I'll say this just one more time.

Those of you who got this letter - all FBS has to do is blast your book again, without your permission, maybe because he's having a bad day or pissed off that his business went down, whatever -- and bam, you could lose your KDP account. Are you really thinking you are safe because you don't order his service again, that he wouldn't do this? Wake up and look at the real internet world -- the one where Aweber was down for the last two days because of a massive DDOS attack.

And it's not just FBS. Any jerk who happens to have developed the same technology and reads this thread (and sees those of you who have posted that you got this letter have a free book in your signature) can blast it and bam -- maybe you lose your KDP account.

Understand?

If you got this letter you are in a *terribly unsafe* position and need to take all your books off perma-free. Not doing so is reckless behavior on your part.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Arkan9 said:


> I think many are still missing an important point so I'll say this just one more time.
> 
> Those of you who got this letter - all FBS has to do is blast your book again, without your permission, maybe because he's having a bad day or p*ssed off that his business went down, whatever -- and bam, you could lose your KDP account. Are you really thinking you are safe because you don't order his service again, that he wouldn't do this? Wake up and look at the real internet world -- the one where Aweber was down for the last two days because of a massive DDOS attack.
> 
> ...


Why would FBS limit itself to prior users? By your logic, the service could take anyone down by blasting their book twice, even if they've never signed up for the service.

Look, there are some risks to life on the internet. Freaking out about the possibilities all the time isn't practical. None of us could do any promotion or have any online presence if we got into that pattern of thinking.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2014)

I read the entire discussion and am surprised you received the warning. 

Sorry you had to take one for the team.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> No, I didn't say that. I said that if you used it, you wouldn't be able to argue that you didn't know. I was addressing the old "ignorance of the law" defense.


Julie - There is still a problem with the way your proposed system would work. Anyone can easily change their landing page address and name to appear to be something else. So someothersite.dom could have to 100 different names to fool people such as Bookhub.com, EBT. com, etc.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2014)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> ***** - There is still a problem with the way your proposed system would work. Anyone can easily change their landing page address and name to appear to be something else. So someothersite.dom could have to 100 different names to fool people such as Bookhub.com, EBT. com, etc.


No system is perfect. Our options are to do the best we can or do nothing at all. if Jeff Bezos waited around for things to be 100% perfect, I doubt Amazon would ever have been founded, let alone would we have the Indle.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I do think the point is well taken--in the Internet age, it would be a nightmare to maintain a list of blacklisted sites.  And then the fact that a site is NOT blacklisted (yet) implies that it's okay.  I don't see the benefit to Amazon to try to do this...  But I'm not an author or publisher, so maybe I'm not getting it.

Betsy


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> No system is perfect. Our options are to do the best we can or do nothing at all. if Jeff Bezos waited around for things to be 100% perfect, I doubt Amazon would ever have been founded, let alone would we have the Indle.


Amazon is always improving on what works, and drops what isn't. They are aware unscrupulous people are trying to game their system, and they work on solutions. I was merely pointing out why your proposed solution wouldn't work. I'm sure Amazon is working on better tracking of down loads for marketing purposes. As they find loop holes, they'll close them.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Amazon is always improving on what works, and drops what isn't. They are aware unscrupulous people are trying to game their system, and they work on solutions. I was merely pointing out why your proposed solution wouldn't work. I'm sure Amazon is working on better tracking of down loads for marketing purposes. As they find loop holes, they'll close them.


At the last place I worked, the IT Manager told me that the bad guys are winning. There are too many of them out there and it's almost impossible to keep up.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Arkan9 said:


> I think many are still missing an important point so I'll say this just one more time.
> 
> Those of you who got this letter - all FBS has to do is blast your book again, without your permission, maybe because he's having a bad day or p*ssed off that his business went down, whatever -- and bam, you could lose your KDP account. Are you really thinking you are safe because you don't order his service again, that he wouldn't do this? Wake up and look at the real internet world -- the one where Aweber was down for the last two days because of a massive DDOS attack.
> 
> ...


I think your warning is sincere, but reactionary. FBS is too busy scheduling boosts for all the paying customers that are still no doubt forking it over for the service, and probably setting up a new system with no black marks against it to go to when this one goes belly up. Blackhatters work _hard_ at what they do. It may be cheating systems and manipulating results, whether Amazon or Google or whatever, but they work their butts off doing it.

I also think that FBS might be okay with manipulating Amazon's rank for cash, and if someone's account gets dinged for it _maybe_ that's not a big deal, but assuming that he would purposefully attack someone with that intent is a leap. There's a difference between the willingness to do blackhat stuff for profit and the willingness to sabotage someone who said something you didn't like. I don't think one guarantees the other.

Also, by your reasoning no permafree is safe anywhere, and no book using a free day in Select is either. I don't think that level of alarm is necessary.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

Not surprised. Sounding fishy from the beginning. I know it was discussed at length on the board. At least Amazon finally caught on. Hope authors do too.


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## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

When rereading the original warning email from Amazon, it seems obvious that they know which downloads come from FBS. They have likely taken steps already to refuse any connections from their servers.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Rayven T. Hill said:


> When rereading the original warning email from Amazon, it seems obvious that they know which downloads come from FBS. They have likely taken steps already to refuse any connections from their servers.


I didn't get that at all from reading the email I was sent. They said "may." I think they pulled author names off the FBS site (I was told he put a quote from me in the WC on their page) or from the FBS thread here in the WC.

But I am sure Amazon will do what they can to screen out false services. The reason they knew about "me" is I have been vocal about every marketing service (on this forum) I use in the hopes of helping indies get more visible. 
But because of the backlash I received on this one, I won't be sharing whom I work with in the future. In three years of running marketing campaigns this is the first I've run across that Amazon changed its mind on.


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## nightfire (Mar 22, 2012)

shelleyo1 said:


> I think your warning is sincere, but reactionary. FBS is too busy scheduling boosts for all the paying customers that are still no doubt forking it over for the service, and probably setting up a new system with no black marks against it to go to when this one goes belly up. Blackhatters work _hard_ at what they do. It may be cheating systems and manipulating results, whether Amazon or Google or whatever, but they work their butts off doing it.
> 
> I also think that FBS might be okay with manipulating Amazon's rank for cash, and if someone's account gets dinged for it _maybe_ that's not a big deal, but assuming that he would purposefully attack someone with that intent is a leap. There's a difference between the willingness to do blackhat stuff for profit and the willingness to sabotage someone who said something you didn't like. I don't think one guarantees the other.
> 
> Also, by your reasoning no permafree is safe anywhere, and no book using a free day in Select is either. I don't think that level of alarm is necessary.


In the real world blackhats do indeed go after people for "revenge" or that threaten their livelihood. All the time. A large percentage of DDOS attacks are aimed at someone that pissed off a blackhat. Authors are not used to this kind of behavior. It is indeed out there. Will they randomly go after people to trash their accounts? Not likely. Will they open under a new name in the future? Highly likely.

Julie, you posted beautifully worded posts that were right on target.


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## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I didn't get that at all from reading the email I was sent. They said "may." I think they pulled author names off the FBS site (I was told he put a quote from me in the WC on their page) or from the FBS thread here in the WC.


It seems likely they may have gotten your information from the FBS site, that's why they said 'may'.

Amazon also said "_this site uses improper practices to artificially inflate sales ranking in the Kindle Store_". That tells me they know which downloads come from FBS, and I believe they know exactly how they're doing it.

Just my opinion. I've been wrong before.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I hope anyone who used this service because they saw me do it understands that I used them only as a guinea pig and in hopes of discovering what the heck was going on. I would feel terribly if someone's account was damaged because of that. I'm glad to see the people who were recommending them overtly fall back a bit on that position.

There are certainly malicious black hats out there. Fwiw, I do not think FBS is one of them. Ymmv, etc., blabbidy blah.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Monique said:


> I hope anyone who used this service because they saw me do it understands that I used them only as a guinea pig and in hopes of discovering what the heck was going on. I would feel terribly if someone's account was damaged because of that. I'm glad to see the people who were recommending them overtly fall back a bit on that position.
> 
> There are certainly malicious black hats out there. Fwiw, I do not think FBS is one of them. Ymmv, etc., blabbidy blah.


I defended them in the beginning, because they delivered what they said they would. I saw an email from Amazon saying they were real down loads. You have to have an account with Amazon to download a book. So when they said the downloads were real, that was good enough for me. Now that I've heard from Amazon reversing their decision, I've reversed mine. 
I've tried several new services we've heard about here in the WC because I see my sales go up when my visibility goes up.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I'm not sure why you want to try to cause stress to those who may have used the service by posting such a negative response.
> 
> If anyone ever gets a warning from Amazon, they should contact them.
> As Amazon stated in their original email they are trying to *protect* authors (publishers) too. They informed us FBS is not welcome. I believe *Amazon is not trying to "ban" authors*. Maybe they will fix the programs that allow their system to be gamed, and at the same time maybe they will have their legal department step in to issue cease and desist orders to FBS. Either way, your fearmongering serves no purpose as those who don't know, still won't know, and those who happen upon this thread, will.
> ...


That was real sweet of you Lisa to paint me with such a broad brush. Sadly, however, you're mistaken. I don't enjoy "stirring things up" (I assume if I was into that sort of behavior it would have taken me less than 24 hours to notice your reply) and I'm not in the business of "fear-mongering" either ... I'm in the business of books and understanding the things that are relevant to them. So, you'll excuse my ongoing concern about this issue.

I absolutely agree with you that Amazon doesn't want to ban authors. But they will. Businesses do things all the time they wish they didn't have to do. Amazon, thus far, has gone out of its way to not only look into FBS but the authors that have used it. So far, to our knowledge, they haven't "misfired" a single e-mail. They're warning people, but they've also made it clear that they will take action against authors if it continues ... which, was my point when I replied to you yesterday.

See, I'm willing to bet there is someone right now who is looking into FBS site. They're clicking around, doing some mental math and they might end up buying a package. You can't say, because you don't know, that the innocent person who is just like you and faithful that good people exist and visibility is king of castle, won't lose their account. You don't know if or when Amazon will quit with the warnings and decide enough is enough. No one does. That's my point. My only point.

In case you missed it the first time, let me reiterate: I'm _thrilled_ for you that Amazon has expunged you of culpability in this debacle despite the 17 page original post that predicted this outcome (thanks in no small part to David Adams and his knowing his way around the internet). I'm proud of Monique for speaking up. I'm happy my fellow KB writers are being given the benefit of the doubt. And yeah, I worry about everyone else, too. Sorry, not sorry.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> The reason they knew about "me" is I have been vocal about every marketing service (on this forum) I use in the hopes of helping indies get more visible.
> But because of the backlash I received on this one, I won't be sharing whom I work with in the future. In three years of running marketing campaigns this is the first I've run across that Amazon changed its mind on.


I don't think them getting your email address had anything to do with you being vocal on here. I used the service as well, have posted about it on here and in the WarriorForum, and I haven't received an e-mail from Amazon. As Rayven mentioned, it seems they must have pulled your information from the FBS site.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

AshMP said:


> That was real sweet of you Lisa to paint me with such a broad brush. Sadly, however, you're mistaken. I don't enjoy "stirring things up" (I assume if I was into that sort of behavior it would have taken me less than 24 hours to notice your reply) and I'm not in the business of "fear-mongering" either ... I'm in the business of books and understanding the things that are relevant to them. So, you'll excuse my ongoing concern about this issue.


Gee, I'm in the business of books and understanding the things that are relevant to them, too.



AshMP said:


> See, I'm willing to bet there is someone right now who is looking into FBS site. They're clicking around, doing some mental math and they might end up buying a package. You can't say, because you don't know, that the innocent person who is just like you and faithful that good people exist and visibility is king of castle, won't lose their account. You don't know if or when Amazon will quit with the warnings and decide enough is enough. No one does. That's my point. My only point.


If a person sees this thread there are plenty of warnings from those of us who were involved. The mods have asked several times to keep it that way.

Yes, I know the unwary won't lose their accounts as Amazon is not out to ban authors. They send warnings first.

If it truly is an unscrupulous business, this thread won't close them down, and your fearmongering won't help unsuspecting authors as:

1) The unscrupulous people will simply change their website landing pages and names, and keep operating.

2) Those authors will see this thread and the 8 pages of the warnings already posted, (or they won't see this thread) so there was no need to cause fear to others who had used them already.

So yes, I do see your post as an attempt to scare people since you posted it right after I posted my assurance from Amazon that that is not their intent.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, y'all got the poking at each other out of your systems?  Let's move on.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> OK, y'all got the poking at each other out of your systems? Let's move on.
> 
> Betsy
> KB Moderator


Who's got the cattle prod?


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## trublue (Jul 7, 2012)

Okay so does that mean if you use them, you should contact Amazon or if they do not send email, let it go?


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

trublue said:


> Okay so does that mean if you use them, you should contact Amazon or if they do not send email, let it go?


It's probably a to each his own type of thing. I'm not going to go out of my way to contact them. I used the service a long time ago. I decided after I used it that I wouldn't use it again. If Amazon emails me about my use of the service, which was way back when it was first offered on here, I'll e-mail them back and explain the situation. Considering that I haven't used the service since, I can only assume that they'd be understanding and treat me the same as they have everyone else who has gotten the e-mail.


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## trublue (Jul 7, 2012)

Okay, makes sense. Thanks


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I see lots of posts on various threads telling us Amazon will cancel accounts for one thing or another. I don't know. Maybe they do.

Have they done it? How many? Why? Given Amazons past behavior, is it reasonable to think they will be canceling accounts?

There is a difference between what Amazon can do, and what they actually do. Do we know anything?

Anyone here had their account zapped?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I see lots of posts on various threads telling us Amazon will cancel accounts for one thing or another. I don't know. Maybe they do.
> 
> Have they done it? How many? Why? Given Amazons past behavior, is it reasonable to think they will be canceling accounts?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure Amazon's responses to different types of wrongdoing are predictive of their response to this kind of rank manipulation. I guess it comes down to this question: was Amazon bluffing when it said, "If this activity continues, we will have to take appropriate action (which may include removing your title from Amazon and/or terminating your account)"?


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I didn't get that at all from reading the email I was sent. They said "may." I think they pulled author names off the FBS site (I was told he put a quote from me in the WC on their page) or from the FBS thread here in the WC.
> 
> But I am sure Amazon will do what they can to screen out false services. The reason they knew about "me" is I have been vocal about every marketing service (on this forum) I use in the hopes of helping indies get more visible.


Sorry, but I know someone who used the service before she realized they were scambots. She never posted publicly. And yes, she got the email. They only way AMZ could know is by looking at her downloads.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> Sorry, but I know someone who used the service before she realized they were scambots. She never posted publicly. And yes, she got the email. They only way AMZ could know is by looking at her downloads.


And several people who used the service pm'd me privately, who have _not_ gotten notices. Also, Amazon indicated to me that I may have used the service, but they did not know for sure until I told them I had.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> And several people who used the service pm'd me privately, who have _not_ gotten notices. Also, Amazon indicated to me that I may have used the service, but they did not know for sure until I told them I had.


So? Maybe they haven't gotten to everyone. My point is that they are not only emailing people who have posted about it in public areas and that just because someone hasn't posted about it doesn't mean that AMZ won't be emailing in the future.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> So? Maybe they haven't gotten to everyone. My point is that they are not only emailing people who have posted about it in public areas and that just because someone hasn't posted about it doesn't mean that AMZ won't be emailing in the future.


The point being the "may," they are sending the email to those they think may have used the service.

Remember, they were selling different levels of dl's maybe they're not concerned about those who purchased the smaller ones, or maybe they can't distinguish those users from other forms of marketing. My previous best run, to the best of my memory, was 12,000 dls and I believe that was through either ENT or FKBT. So for my genre, 20K would stick out like a sore thumb.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Lisa.

Anyone who used the service could have been in serious dutch. Amazon is being pretty cool as long as you don't shenanigan. See what I did there?  The use of "may" is just logical cya language. They can't know that you paid FBS. I didn't pay them. You did. Amazon doesn't know the difference. They see activity on accounts. I would assume those who have not gotten the email will get it soon. 

Bottom line, FBS = bad news.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Monique said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Lisa.
> 
> Anyone who used the service could have been in serious dutch. Amazon is being pretty cool as long as you don't shenanigan. See what I did there?  The use of "may" is just logical cya language. They can't know that you paid FBS. I didn't pay them. You did. Amazon doesn't know the difference. They see activity on accounts. I would assume those who have not gotten the email will get it soon.
> 
> Bottom line, FBS = bad news.


I was answering Deanna's post about how/what Amazon knows. That's it. 
Deanna is making an assumption based on what her friend told her. I'm making assumptions based on what others and based on what Amazon has communicated to me. Frankly, it doesn't matter either way. 
Scammers are a fact of life.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I see lots of posts on various threads telling us Amazon will cancel accounts for one thing or another. I don't know. Maybe they do.
> 
> Have they done it? How many? Why? Given Amazons past behavior, is it reasonable to think they will be canceling accounts?
> 
> There is a difference between what Amazon can do, and what they actually do. Do we know anything?


Derek Murphy from CreativeIndie got his account banned (then reinstated):
http://www.creativindie.com/how-i-got-banned-from-kdp-and-what-happens-after-your-account-is-deleted/

Back in 2012 they zapped a ton of accounts for repeatedly publishing PLR and PD content despite warnings. There are many threads in the infamous worrier forum.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

shelleyo1 said:


> I think your warning is sincere, but reactionary. FBS is too busy scheduling boosts for all the paying customers that are still no doubt forking it over for the service, and probably setting up a new system with no black marks against it to go to when this one goes belly up. Blackhatters work _hard_ at what they do. It may be cheating systems and manipulating results, whether Amazon or Google or whatever, but they work their butts off doing it.
> 
> I also think that FBS might be okay with manipulating Amazon's rank for cash, and if someone's account gets dinged for it _maybe_ that's not a big deal, but assuming that he would purposefully attack someone with that intent is a leap. There's a difference between the willingness to do blackhat stuff for profit and the willingness to sabotage someone who said something you didn't like. I don't think one guarantees the other.
> 
> Also, by your reasoning no permafree is safe anywhere, and no book using a free day in Select is either. I don't think that level of alarm is necessary.


The problem isn't necessarily FBS. The problem is that it is ridiculously easy to replicate what they are doing. I said it before, I'll say it again. With a $30 VPS and a couple of days work, I could recreate FBS. And the only reason it would take a couple of days is because I'm not very proficient in PHP. If I splashed out on a copy of UBot, I could cut down the development time.

Right now, there must be blackhatters looking at this thinking there is a great opportunity for "negative SEO" type services. And 'blacker-hatters' who could be thinking about a protection racket (maybe that's FBS's phase 2 plan, for when his current offering goes down the pan)...."That's a lovely KDP account you've got. Be a terrible shame if something were to happen to it."

I know people think this stuff is far fetched, but it happens in other online market places every day. I see no reason why KDP should be immune.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2014)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I see lots of posts on various threads telling us Amazon will cancel accounts for one thing or another. I don't know. Maybe they do.
> 
> Have they done it? How many? Why? Given Amazons past behavior, is it reasonable to think they will be canceling accounts?
> 
> ...


For someone who has been here as long as you, I would think you already know the answer. People on these boards HAVE had their accounts canceled. Sometimes it is a temporary issue and they get reinstated. Other times not. It has happened. Insofar as how many, I'm sure Amazon will tell us right AFTER they tell us exactly how many ebooks they have sold. Which will be sometime a few weeks after never.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2014)

Just to reiterate one point because people continue to say Amazon "changed their minds."

Amazon did not change their mind. _They answered the question that was asked of them_. They were asked if the downloads were coming from readers. They answered that the downloads were coming from Amazon accounts. Amazon was not asked to run an investigation on the service. They were asked a question about downloads, which they answered.

Let's say I run a store that accepts checks. Lisa walks into my store and give me a check. I call the bank and ask if Lisa has a checking account there and if the check is good. They confirm that Lisa has an account and that there are sufficient funds to cover the check.

The problem is, it isn't LISA standing in front of me. It's Monique, who somehow got hold of Lisa's checkbook. When the bank discovers later than the checkbook was stolen and they refuse to honor the check, they did not "change their mind." The decision to honor the stolen check is not the same as the question regarding whether or not the account had funds.

It is the same thing here. All people did was ask Amazon if the checking account existed. Nobody asked Amazon to confirm the identities of who owned those checking accounts.


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## MonaM (Jan 13, 2014)

Pelagios said:


> The problem isn't necessarily FBS. The problem is that it is ridiculously easy to replicate what they are doing. I said it before, I'll say it again. With a $30 VPS and a couple of days work, I could recreate FBS. And the only reason it would take a couple of days is because I'm not very proficient in PHP. If I splashed out on a copy of UBot, I could cut down the development time.
> 
> Right now, there must be blackhatters looking at this thinking there is a great opportunity for "negative SEO" type services. And 'blacker-hatters' who could be thinking about a protection racket (maybe that's FBS's phase 2 plan, for when his current offering goes down the pan)...."That's a lovely KDP account you've got. Be a terrible shame if something were to happen to it."
> 
> I know people think this stuff is far fetched, but it happens in other online market places every day. I see no reason why KDP should be immune.


I actually suspect one of the reasons KDP is using words like 'may' and not giving particularly detailed answers is that they don't want the blackhatters (whoever they are) learning their methods for sniffing them out. It's all about trying to stay one step ahead.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> For someone who has been here as long as you, I would think you already know the answer. People on these boards HAVE had their accounts canceled. Sometimes it is a temporary issue and they get reinstated. Other times not. It has happened. Insofar as how many, I'm sure Amazon will tell us right AFTER they tell us exactly how many ebooks they have sold. Which will be sometime a few weeks after never.


Well, you are wrong again. I don't know, and I claim expert knowledge of the scope of my vast ignorance.

If we have to wait to learn the number of cancellations until they reveal sales data, can we presume everyone else is just as ignorant as I am about the extent of their use of cancelations?

Note the post above from Pelagios. Good info. Not sure how long he has been here, but he seems to know more than both of us.


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## Alessandra Kelley (Feb 22, 2011)

Just tossing in a thought experiment here as an outside observer.

If there have been KindleBoards members who have had their Amazon accounts deleted, it is possible they might no longer participate in the community here, since the chief benefit and focus of the Writers' Cafe is to and for Kindle authors specifically.

In that case, there would appear to be less evidence of such deletions around because you would no longer see or hear from people who have had Amazon accounts deleted.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It's Monique, who somehow got hold of Lisa's checkbook.


Typical Monique .Making stuff up, cheating and troublemaking.



> It is the same thing here. All people did was ask Amazon if the checking account existed. Nobody asked Amazon to confirm the identities of who owned those checking accounts.


Yep. Amazon didn't change their minds. They answered the question asked with the information they had _at the time_. Obviously, now, they have a little more.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

Alessandra Kelley said:


> Just tossing in a thought experiment here as an outside observer.
> 
> If there have been KindleBoards members who have had their Amazon accounts deleted, it is possible they might no longer participate in the community here, since the chief benefit and focus of the Writers' Cafe is to and for Kindle authors specifically.
> 
> In that case, there would appear to be less evidence of such deletions around because you would no longer see or hear from people who have had Amazon accounts deleted.


If my account ever got suspended/deleted/dinged for any reason, this would be the first place I'd come to post/whine about it. I think a lot of WC authors feel the same.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> I'm not sure Amazon's responses to different types of wrongdoing are predictive of their response to this kind of rank manipulation. I guess it comes down to this question: was Amazon bluffing when it said, "If this activity continues, we will have to take appropriate action (which may include removing your title from Amazon and/or terminating your account)"?


Im not sure either. But bluffs? I suppose it would help to know how Amazon behaved in past situations with similar wording. And I confess. I don't know.


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## nightfire (Mar 22, 2012)

Amazon is very quick to delete titles.  Rather to take them down and leave them in your account as locked.  They do so without rhyme or reason when they feel like it.  So if they actually do threaten to do so because of known issues, they very well may do it.

I've had books blocked for having the word "wikipedia" in it.  And several others I had to defend.  Because I did some research involved with the books (photo non-fiction) and I referenced wikipedia as a site that I used in my research.  Remember when books had references in the back?  Well they assumed that I took text directly from wikipedia (I did not).  I let them block the first book.  I fought them on subsequent books.

Point being - Amazon can and will remove your book for any reason they want.  Since this service manipulated ranking, they can easily just shut the book down, then the account if you use it for other books.


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## MikeAllenWriting (Feb 27, 2014)

Hey,

I never post on the Kboards but I'm Mike Allen, author of The Quirks of Being Mike - a memoir about my life with Gerstmann Syndrome and PTSD. I uploaded The Quirks of Being Mike to Kindle Direct Publishing February 10th and becoming an author like so many of you is definitely the biggest accomplishment of my 24 year long life thus far. What I wanted to bring up, however, is a website called Freebookservice.com 

The people at Freebookservice.com told me that the marketing service they provide is fine. It isn't fine and fortunately my parents told me to email KDP compliance support who then told me that Amazon will take action against publisher accounts that manipulate Kindle sales rank. The people at Freebookservice.com insisted the whole time with me that nothing they did was in violation of the Amazon rules and that the issue was something else entirely but Amazon has told me otherwise. I hope all authors on Amazon KDP and here on the Kboards are very careful about how they market and what they choose to do. I believe most of us want to do stuff the right way but if the people at Freebookservice.com will try to say the service isn't illegal to someone who is writing more as a catharsis then author then I can only imagine what they will say to all you authors who have entire book series. I don't expect a refund from Freebookservice.com and really that isn't why I'm writing this. I would just strongly suggest all writers write to Amazon's compliance team before making any marketing choices, especially if you're new to KDP like me. Thank you for your time.


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## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

MikeAllenWriting said:


> Hey,
> 
> I never post on the Kboards but I'm Mike Allen, author of The Quirks of Being Mike - a memoir about my life with Gerstmann Syndrome and PTSD. I uploaded The Quirks of Being Mike to Kindle Direct Publishing February 10th and becoming an author like so many of you is definitely the biggest accomplishment of my 24 year long life thus far. What I wanted to bring up, however, is a website called Freebookservice.com
> 
> The people at Freebookservice.com told me that the marketing service they provide is fine. It isn't fine and fortunately my parents told me to email KDP compliance support who then told me that Amazon will take action against publisher accounts that manipulate Kindle sales rank. The people at Freebookservice.com insisted the whole time with me that nothing they did was in violation of the Amazon rules and that the issue was something else entirely but Amazon has told me otherwise. I hope all authors on Amazon KDP and here on the Kboards are very careful about how they market and what they choose to do. I believe most of us want to do stuff the right way but if the people at Freebookservice.com will try to say the service isn't illegal to someone who is writing more as a catharsis then author then I can only imagine what they will say to all you authors who have entire book series. I don't expect a refund from Freebookservice.com and really that isn't why I'm writing this. I would just strongly suggest all writers write to Amazon's compliance team before making any marketing choices, especially if you're new to KDP like me. Thank you for your time.


There was a whole thread about this not long ago. Can't seem to find it now.


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## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=179247.0


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Welcome to the forum, Mike.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

You are wise to check out any new marketing avenues before trying them out. Especially if they charge for the service and promise fame and fortune. If it sounds too good to be true it usually is.
And thank you for posting to alert us here. Sometimes some of us will have heard about these ventures but there is always a chance that something new comes along. Trading this sort of information is vital.

Welcome to Kboards!


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## MikeAllenWriting (Feb 27, 2014)

Hey Becca Mills, Rayven Hill, Quiss and Drew Smith, thanks for the welcome and the kind words. I’m still so excited about releasing a book that the whole promotion mess doesn’t faze me. Life goes on. I just don’t want other new authors making the same mistake and hopefully now they won't.


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## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

MikeAllenWriting said:


> Hey Becca Mills, Rayven Hill, Quiss and Drew Smith, thanks for the welcome and the kind words. I'm still so excited about releasing a book that the whole promotion mess doesn't faze me. Life goes on. I just don't want other new authors making the same mistake and hopefully now they won't.


Looking forward to seeing your first book.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, I'm going to merge this thread with the other thread about FBS.  Welcome, Mike!

Betsy


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## MikeAllenWriting (Feb 27, 2014)

Thanks Betsy the Quilter. Sorry if I posted in the wrong place.


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

No, this is the right place, Mike. Betsy was just doing some housecleaning to keep all the threads about this subject together.

Welcome!


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## nightfire (Mar 22, 2012)

I'm thinking the company might have already relaunched under a new name. A company has come out of nowhere with over half a million email addresses - supposedly.


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## MikeAllenWriting (Feb 27, 2014)

Thanks Shawn.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

nightfire said:


> I'm thinking the company might have already relaunched under a new name. A company has come out of nowhere with over half a million email addresses - supposedly.


I don't know if it's the same company, but the experience with FreeBookService.com should encourage everyone to be cautious about a site that comes out of nowhere and claims results as good as BookBub. Remember that BookBub took 2 years to get to this size, even with some very smart people involved who spent a hell of a lot of money building it up.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

dgaughran said:


> the experience with FreeBookService.com should encourage everyone to be cautious about a site that comes out of nowhere and claims results as good as BookBub.


Perhaps even more importantly, it should encourage everyone to look at the nature of the service being supplied and decide for themselves whether it's _fundamentally manipulative and deceptive_. BookBub, needless to say, is entirely legitimate and commendable!


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Just FYI: I got an email from these folks this morning, so they're still operating. I'm grateful for having read this thread prior to receiving it.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

Donna White Glaser said:


> Just FYI: I got an email from these folks this morning, so they're still operating. I'm grateful for having read this thread prior to receiving it.


They send me emails rather frequently. I'm actually surprised they're still operating.


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

Yup. I just heard from them too. I didn't remember this thread, but when I read the pitch about "a thousand downloads of your book" my first thought was, "That's not going to translate to very many paid sales" and deleted it.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

It's sad that this sort of thing goes on. So many of us want to see our books rise to the top of the lists, and these "companies" prey upon those hopes. I'm all for businesses making a profit, but not through dishonest means. It's a shame that they continue to operate, especially now that we know how damaging their services can actually be in the long run.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

It's also proof that most of the spots on the top 100 freebie list are bought.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

KMatthew said:


> It's also proof that most of the spots on the top 100 freebie list are bought.


I disagree.

It's evidence that some might be bought. But I see all the time where someone here will post a freebie and, sure enough, I look a few hours later and their book is in the list. And these are people who have come out vehemently opposed to the sort of shennanigans discussed here so, unless they're HUGE hypocrits, I think they're real downloads.

Fact is, there are a LOT of people who read so voraciously that they scoop up any free book that looks even remotely interesting because the idea of being stuck somewhere with NOTHING to read is Way Too Scary!


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Fact is, there are a LOT of people who read so voraciously that they scoop up any free book that looks even remotely interesting because the idea of being stuck somewhere with NOTHING to read is Way Too Scary!


That is so true <shudder> Thank goodness for my phone. When I'm buying a new one, the first thing I do is make sure I can download my kindle app to it.


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## nightfire (Mar 22, 2012)

With some really HIGH priced packages.  Still privacy protected whois and a gmail business address.  Buyer beware! Unfortunately there are lots of authors that a desperate and will throw their money at anything with big promises.

*sigh*


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Monique said:


> As some of you know, I was one of the testers for FreeBookService, a service that guaranteed a certain number of downloads for free books. I was skeptical, as were others. I agreed to be a guinea pig, and while they did deliver downloads the whole thing stunk on ice. Some people continued to and still continue to support them. Be warned, I just received the following email from KDP:
> 
> _"It recently came to our attention that you may have used the third-party site, www.FreeBookService.com, for your title, [My Book]. While we will always support legitimate efforts of KDP authors to promote their books, this site uses improper practices to artificially inflate sales ranking in the Kindle Store.
> 
> ...


Wow . . . thanks for the heads up!


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I got the email yesterday. They're still trying. I added them to my spam list so I won't see them anymore.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I just got an email solicitation from them as well. Bumping so desperate newbies don't hop on board. They could bring down your whole business!


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

C. Gockel said:


> I just got an email solicitation from them as well. Bumping so desperate newbies don't hop on board. They could bring down your whole business!


I received one a few weeks ago. I forgot all about it until seeing this post. I went and checked my old mail and found it there and remembered the email once I read it. I went to their site but when I saw the prices, and no explanation of who or how they would market the books.


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## RachelSilbes (Apr 28, 2015)

I read all 13 pages of this thread. It was very interesting to see Tom dig himself a grave whenever he responded to a post.

Sorry to everyone who got warned, and it's good this thread is being bumped!


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

Sigh. Can't say I'm surprised to see them back.

My take on a promotion is this - if they don't explain how they're going to get whatever results are intended, then I stay away. That's the difference between many of the effective sites a lot of us use and a site like FreeBookService. That doesn't guarantee the sites that tell you how they do it are telling the truth, but with most of the legitimate ones it's pretty easy to put on your reader hat and subscribe, check out FB page, twitter, etc. You can get a certain amount of verification.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Wow just read this entire thread. 

Here's the thing.. I hope this thread sticks around for awhile. As it would be very easy for an unsuspecting writer to think that Freebookservice is totally legit. 

Honestly, I don't know anything about spam backlinks and phantom servers, and what not. So to me at first glance it looks just like any other book promo site out there. And my assumption is others would think the same thing - and suddenly find themselves in hot water. 

Amazon is actually doing the right thing I think -- in just sending out warnings. I'm not a fan of how some of the responses from them are worded --- as it makes it seem like the author is at fault or did something wrong. But I'm glad they are at least warning people and not banning them instantly. 

But this whole thing is disturbing. Not ever author checks Kindleboards.


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## nightfire (Mar 22, 2012)

Hopefully the price puts a lot of people off.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

nightfire said:


> Hopefully the price puts a lot of people off.


Well, that's the thing. I got this email, looked at their prices and immediately thought anyone who can legitimately charge that sort of money would not have to solicit for submissions. I was also put off by him saying he could guarantee to put my permafree book in the top 100; it is already in the top 100 so why didn't he see that?


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## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

I got the email solicitation this morning as well. It was NOT sent cam-spam compliant. I have no idea how I got on their mailing list, but it was pure spam. That really annoys me.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I tried the service back when it was beginning up as an experiment. So did several others here. I hadn't thought to wonder then how the service would deliver on its promises. It was a gamble. It paid off by bumping my permafree with something like 30,000 downloads to number 1 in the rankings and generating reviews and buy-throughs of the other books in the series. The service paid for itself and well over. We all speculated here about how they got those downloads, which Amazon verified were legit. The guy wouldn't tell us, at which point I decided that even though it had done what it had promised, they were being a bit too evasive.

I've gotten several promotional e-mails from them recently. I still wonder how they do it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Al Stevens said:


> We all speculated here about how they got those downloads, which Amazon verified were legit.


Just to clarify--I suggest anyone wondering about the service read through the entire thread. In an earlier thread for the service, it was reported that Amazon answered a question that was asked about the downloads-- Amazon responded that they were real downloads, but subsequently, as the subject of this thread says, responded to several members that use of the service could result in termination of one's KDP account as use of the service is considered rank manipulation (as I recall--I need to read through the thread again, too).

Again, just want to clarify that.

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Quoting Monique's OP for the tl;dr crowd.



Monique said:


> As some of you know, I was one of the testers for FreeBookService, a service that guaranteed a certain number of downloads for free books. I was skeptical, as were others. I agreed to be a guinea pig, and while they did deliver downloads the whole thing stunk on ice. Some people continued to and still continue to support them. Be warned, I just received the following email from KDP:
> 
> _"It recently came to our attention that you may have used the third-party site, www.FreeBookService.com, for your title, [My Book]. While we will always support legitimate efforts of KDP authors to promote their books, this site uses improper practices to artificially inflate sales ranking in the Kindle Store.
> 
> ...


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> I tried the service back when it was beginning up as an experiment. So did several others here. I hadn't thought to wonder then how the service would deliver on its promises. It was a gamble. It paid off by bumping my permafree with something like 30,000 downloads to number 1 in the rankings and generating reviews and buy-throughs of the other books in the series. The service paid for itself and well over. We all speculated here about how they got those downloads, which Amazon verified were legit. The guy wouldn't tell us, at which point I decided that even though it had done what it had promised, they were being a bit too evasive.
> 
> I've gotten several promotional e-mails from them recently. I still wonder how they do it.


I used them a year ago, not knowing what they were. They delivered the downloads, but almost no buy-through or reviews, no long tail, which to me means something isn't right. Maybe he has 100K fake accounts to use to download books, or something like that. It's not worth either the money or the risk.


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## SkyScribe (Aug 18, 2014)

I got the spam email as well. Very annoying. I have no idea how they got my email address.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Al Stevens said:


> I tried the service back when it was beginning up as an experiment. So did several others here. I hadn't thought to wonder then how the service would deliver on its promises. It was a gamble. It paid off by bumping my permafree with something like 30,000 downloads to number 1 in the rankings and generating reviews and buy-throughs of the other books in the series. The service paid for itself and well over. We all speculated here about how they got those downloads, which Amazon verified were legit. The guy wouldn't tell us, at which point I decided that even though it had done what it had promised, they were being a bit too evasive.
> 
> I've gotten several promotional e-mails from them recently. I still wonder how they do it.


How they do it has been pretty well sorted out.

Raising that very early response someone (Lisa Grace?) got from a low-level KDP person, who could do no more than check that the downloads were going to actual Amazon accounts, is not helpful. Once Amazon actually looked into the service, they verified in the clearest possible terms that the downloads are NOT legit. The earlier response unfortunately provided cover for a few authors to go ahead and use this service, even though the vast majority of us here were expressing our certainty that it was not legit. It's most unfortunate that KDP sent that response.


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## HMLynn (May 1, 2015)

Thanks for the heads up


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> How they do it has been pretty well sorted out.


I do not recall that it was revealed. Only a lot of speculation.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

They now are offering their service for .99 cent books.  They guarantee 1000 downloads.  The kicker; you have to pay $1499.00; that's $500 more than if you bought 1000 of your own books.  Someone explain this to me.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

PatriceWilliamsMarks said:


> They now are offering their service for .99 cent books. They guarantee 1000 downloads. The kicker; you have to pay $1499.00; that's $500 more than if you bought 1000 of your own books. Someone explain this to me.


$1100 to pay the people who download your book (cost of book + small wage); $399 of profit. Or something like that.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

PatriceWilliamsMarks said:


> They now are offering their service for .99 cent books. They guarantee 1000 downloads. The kicker; you have to pay $1499.00; that's $500 more than if you bought 1000 of your own books. Someone explain this to me.


Same tactic as the documented cases of authors or publishers coordinating purchases of tens of thousands of copies of their own print book in order to push it to the top of the NYT bestseller list. The theory is, you will make it up in the tail. However, in my experience, a BookBub 99c ad costs less and works far better (again, I question whether those purchases would ever actually result in anyone reading the book and buying more from that author), and a 1-day bump to put a book the Amazon bestseller list wouldn't pay off anywhere near what a NYT #1 bestseller tag does.

Even if their methods weren't unethical and proscribed by Amazon, I doubt it would pay off much.


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## PDSinger (May 15, 2014)

I got the email, but they'd actually tracked me down to use my contact form on my website. Glad I was warned.


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## Guest (May 8, 2015)

Al Stevens said:


> I do not recall that it was revealed. Only a lot of speculation.


It was revealed rather boldly in Monique's post, which Betsy reposted upthread. Amazon made it as clear as a bell the service is a scam.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It was revealed rather boldly in Monique's post, which Betsy reposted upthread. Amazon made it as clear as a bell the service is a scam.


That's something else. What wasn't made clear was exactly how the service provided the 10,000 downloads, which Amazon originally certified as having been valid. The service wouldn't tell us how so we speculated. I don't want to get into he said, she said, but if you trace back to my original statement upthread, well, uh, I guess that's he said, she said. Sorry. Carry on.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

edwardgtalbot said:


> Sigh. Can't say I'm surprised to see them back.


They never went away.

They've been sending me emails ever since this thread originated, not that I've been biting on any of them. I just keep forgetting to mark them as spam.

While the sales are obviously generated in some non-legit manner, it's also pretty obvious that Amazon hasn't cracked down on them to the point that their business has suffered or disappeared. I imagine that if anyone of note used this service and had their account banned, they would sue the pants off of the guy who runs it. That hasn't happened, that I know of.

Is the service shady? Yes. Does it work to boost rank? Yes. Will you get your account banned if you use it? Probably not. Use it at your own risk.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KMatthew said:


> They never went away.
> 
> They've been sending me emails ever since this thread originated, not that I've been biting on any of them. I just keep forgetting to mark them as spam.
> 
> ...


What can Amazon do to this guy? 
The answer is absolutely nothing. He is not an employee or vendor. 
As long as there are people willing to give this guy money, he will be in business. 
Now, what Amazon can do is ban an author's account for trying to game the system.


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## cvwriter (May 16, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> What can Amazon do to this guy?
> The answer is absolutely nothing. He is not an employee or vendor.
> As long as there are people willing to give this guy money, he will be in business.
> Now, what Amazon can do is ban an author's account for trying to game the system.


An author who doesn't read KBoards might assume it's just another Bookbub-type service with a big enough list to deliver those kind of results though and not intentionally be trying to game the system.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

cvwriter said:


> An author who doesn't read KBoards might assume it's just another Bookbub-type service with a big enough list to deliver those kind of results though and not intentionally be trying to game the system.


This is true but the question I answered was why doesn't Amazon do something about this guy.

Now as per the bookservice, he is taking advantage of the old adage, there is a sucker born every minute.
The guaranteed downloads should be a tip off.
As per the kboards authors, I do believe he offered his services either free or very cheap originally to get endorsements.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> What can Amazon do to this guy?
> The answer is absolutely nothing. He is not an employee or vendor.
> As long as there are people willing to give this guy money, he will be in business.
> Now, what Amazon can do is ban an author's account for trying to game the system.


It's more about what his buyers can do than what Amazon can do. He still has a thread on the Warrior Forum, and it doesn't have any negative reviews. Obviously, Amazon hasn't been shutting people down for using his service, otherwise there would be a lot of p*ssed off people talking about this on public forum(and not just here).


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## Louise Lintvelt (Jan 10, 2015)

I got a message via my website contact page this week, offering this service as a way to increase visibility of my free book. Luckily I remembered this thread and opted to stay away. The sceptic in me immediately became suspicious...if the service is so great and has been around 18months  why are they going to all the effort of finding free books on Amazon and then contacting authors via their websites. Sounds like desperation to me.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

THANK YOU!!! A friend recommended freebookservice to me, as it provided her with 30,000 Amazon downloads for one book. I looked at the site's purchase page and wondered how they could guarantee a certain number of downloads and how it worked that more money would buy more downloads. Duh . . . I actually thought those downloads represented readers! I'm a little slow . . . anyway, I was getting so desperate for effective promotion that I was considering throwing a considerable chunk of money at these people; being oblivious to the whole algorithm manipulation business. Yikes. Thanks for saving me from my own ignorance! I am shocked but grateful to you.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> I, for one, am glad to see stuff like this shut down. The less artificial gaming of the system the better because when one person starts gaming it, it means we all have to do it in order to compete.


It hasn't been shut down. A friend of mine used it a few weeks ago. Amazon didn't notice it.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Amazon didn't notice it.


Umm ... yeah, still not worth the risk. I've also seen Amazon crack down on malfeasance months later for different violations of TOS.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

C. Gockel said:


> Umm ... yeah, still not worth the risk. I've also seen Amazon crack down on malfeasance months later for different violations of TOS.


You're absolutely right; I won't be using it. I didn't mean to imply that people could get away with using this service and should go for it; I was just stating the current facts I had at hand. I wish Amazon could shut the darned thing down!


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

This thread needs to be bumped up so new authors know about it


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## cjglos (Sep 9, 2015)

mica said:


> This thread needs to be bumped up so new authors know about it


Agree. I didn't know about it.


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## JaroldWilliams (Jan 9, 2014)

I am no fan of gamers and scams. I would like to see sites like theirs shut down. However, I have a major beef with Amazon for the way they handled this matter. There is no excuse....NO EXCUSE...for throwing out threats to authors who got sucked into the scam. The Zon needs to understand that without a product to sell, they go out of business. And we supply that product. We are partners in this venture, and you don't survive in business by threatening your partner. Their actions in this matter show nothing other than a dictatorial nature, and that just is not going to cut it.


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## doolols (Aug 21, 2015)

JaroldWilliams said:


> However, I have a major beef with Amazon for the way they handled this matter. There is no excuse....NO EXCUSE...for throwing out threats to authors who got sucked into the scam.


The problem is, as was mentioned about eighteen millennia ago, that Amazon has no control over these people. It's like telling your mate to download your book to improve its ranking, times several thousand. This site isn't doing anything illegal _per se_, just contravening the T&C of Amazon, which this company hasn't agreed to.

So Amazon warn the people it has access to, which is the only thing it can do.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

doolols said:


> This site isn't doing anything illegal _per se_, just contravening the T&C of Amazon, which this company hasn't agreed to.


You can't download from Amazon without an Amazon account, and I would wager (I'm certainly not going to take the time to go look it up) that there is language in the T&C you agree to when you create an Amazon account which says you will not use it fraudulently.


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## Gerald (Dec 11, 2010)

lilywhite said:


> You can't download from Amazon without an Amazon account, and I would wager (I'm certainly not going to take the time to go look it up) that there is language in the T&C you agree to when you create an Amazon account which says you will not use it fraudulently.


Interesting. I would imagine that if the site was able to create thousands of bogus accounts / accounts under their control, he can create thousands more when he snares a client.

I've read both threads (thanks, David Gaughran!) and it was interesting to note how quick Mr. Free Books went as he was waiting for Amazon to reply to his email.


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