# My Books Butterfly Experiment (Final Results)



## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

Just wanted to share some numbers with my fellow authors. 

In 2014, I ran a one-day, Bookbub ad for the first (permafree) book in my supernatural military series, Stone Soldiers. Back then, I think there was only 3 or 4 books in the series. 

I had a little over 14,000 downloads in one day, and something like 25,000 by the end of the month.

As I'm wrapping this series up next month with the 12th and final installment, I decided to polish up book 1 (a little re-editing) and run an ad again. Bookbub ixnayed me, so I looked elsewhere and ended up buying a "gold" advert with Books Butterfly. 

I'll be posting the results below so folks can get an idea of how/if the service works for supernatural suspense/action-adventure/military-scifi/horrorish titles. 

Day 1; 62 downloads on KDP. (Prior to this, April 1-16, there were a total of 66)
Day 2; 116 downloads on KDP. 
Day 3; 58 downloads on KDP.
Day 4; 20 downloads on KDP. I'll note, I may have gotten a few downloads on iTunes as well, but it's hard to tell through the Smashwords control panel. 
Day 5; 14 downloads at KDP

Overall, that's 270 downloads--a far cry from the guaranteed 1200 downloads.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Pretty sure I could get better results with any of 10 other services for the price or cheaper.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

What's the gold package? Is that the $100/1,200 guaranteed downloads one?


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## MH Johnson (Jan 7, 2017)

I've also been thinking of using Books Butterfly, so I look forward to seeing your results! Thank you for posting this, Martin.


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

David VanDyke said:


> Pretty sure I could get better results with any of 10 other services for the price or cheaper.


Yep, it sure looks that way.



> What's the gold package? Is that the $100/1,200 guaranteed downloads one?


1200 Guaranteed* free downloads
Half a million readers
103,688 email subscribers
127,500 Twitter readers

_* Slots for $0.99 Books and Free Books have a prorated refund. If you pay $170 for Platinum 100 Slot and get 75 sales instead of 100, you get a $42.50 refund in store credit. 92% of $0.99 Book Promotions and 95% of Free Book Promotions hit the guaranteed figure or exceed it._

However, I got an email form them after paying, with the terms of service, which included:

_3) IMPORTANT: Due to low refund rate (4% for Free Books i.e. 96% of free book promotions do not require a refund) and because nearly half of authors ask for store credit instead, we've shifted to all prorated refunds being store credit (usable at www.BooksButterfly.com or www.ReviewSt.com/getReviews/ or www.NewLaunchPromotion.com or www.TwitterBookPromotion.com). If this doesn't work for you please let us know beforehand.

4) Important: There is no prorated refund if your book has been run with Bookbub in the past.

4b) IMPORTANT: If your book has ever been free for longer than a week, then YOU MUST DISCLOSE THIS beforehand. If you don't disclose this, there is no prorated refund._

And I particularly liked this bit:

_ Thanks for getting so far. 98% of authors are great. Unfortunately, there are a small 2% who try to game the system, and try to get refunds illegally. Hence the terms listed above. If you're in the good 98% of authors, we'll do whatever it takes to make you have a great promotion with results backed up with a prorated refund._

Illegally? There's a place in the world where these TOS have been passed as a law? What, Bookland? Authorville?

Dang, I should have spent that $100 on more gunparts or ammo. Some time at the range would have been far more rewarding at this point.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

So they tell you all this after you've paid? I wouldn't want a store credit and I can't believe that 98% do. Why would you ever want to run an ad with them again if yours does so badly you want a refund? Also, store credit doesn't cost them anything and they can hang on to your money. I also wouldn't trust any promotion service that 'guarantees' downloads and I think Amazon frown on that as well.

Seems you're doing everything wrong. Your book has been free for more than a week and you've run a Bookbub in the past. You could have paid off my AMS ad bill with that $100 or given it to the Donkey Sanctuary. I favour the donkeys.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

CEMartin2 said:


> Dang, I should have spent that $100 on more gunparts or ammo. Some time at the range would have been far more rewarding at this point.


Always check KBoards first; you'd be surprised how many services turn out to either be outright scams or simply the source of an endless string of customer complaints.


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## Pizzazz (Dec 14, 2016)

CEMartin2 said:


> Day 1; 62 downloads on KDP. (Prior to this, April 1-16, there were a total of 66)
> Day 2; 116 downloads on KDP.


That's it?

I got over 3,000 downloads with no promotion at all. All I did was tell my newsletter subscribers.


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## Flay Otters (Jul 29, 2014)

ENT and Freebooksy.


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

It's that "guaranteed downloads" thing that always sends me running in the opposite direction.  Whenever someone tries to make such a claim, it's best not to even use them.

Sorry about that expensive lesson.  From what I understand, if you paid them through PayPal, you might have some negotiation room on getting at least part of your money back.  If so, collect and use it elsewhere.


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

This is one thing that always bothered me about Books Butterfly: they don't use affiliate tracking, so can't tell how many downloads / sales came from their promotion. They take credit for all sales within a 48-hour period, including organic and traffic coming from other promotion sites. You can't prove they're only responsible for a portion of the sales, so you can't request a refund.


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

I think what's really disturbing is that when I run an online search for the ad, or mention of my book this week, I find nothing...  Are they doing anything more than tweeting and emailing?


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2017)

1) Firstly, you have to understand that we work very hard to help authors

We ran your book twice as a curated, non sponsor pick in the past - 
2016 - http://freebookdeals.com/2016/02/28/excellent-free-christian-romance-2-1-usa-today-bestselling-authors-100-free-kindle-books-10-excellent-kindle-book-deals/
2013 - http://freebookdeals.com/2013/10/02/133-free-kindle-books-for-wednesday-52-kindle-book-deals-oct-2nd/

THAT is why we ask you to tell us beforehand whether it's permanent free. So we can check things like this

1b) For the 8% of books that miss (for books promoted at $0 and $0.99), we work very hard to help authors understand why their book didn't do well. If you don't want to know then don't read the rest

*********

2) Terms are meant to AVOID situations where authors are unhappy

That's why we're subtly saying - don't promote your book with us if you have already run with Bookbub. Most authors get the hint

************************

3) It's very easy to see where book is being promoted.

3a) This page has list of apps - https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/proof-4-million-readers/
This page in section 3 has list of blogs - https://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/how-it-works/

3b) Search 'specific search terms'

Page 2 of search results - https://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&btnG=Search&q=B008913B3U#q=Mythical+(Stone+Soldiers)+free+kindle+book&start=10

sciencefictionfreebooks.com

3b) Page 2 of search results - https://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&btnG=Search&q=B008913B3U#q=Mythical+(Stone+Soldiers)+C.+E.+Martin+nook+free+book&start=10

www.booksibooks.com

3c) Page 1 of results

https://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&btnG=Search&q=B008913B3U#q=Mythical+(Stone+Soldiers)+C.+E.+Martin+apple+free+book

www.booksibooks.com

********************

4) Your book is not doing well because

You already promoted it to death on Top 100 Lists (via Bookbub) and got 25,000 downloads already
We already mentioned it twice as a curated non-sponsor pick - once in 2013 and once in 2016. Which obviously lowers results now in 2017
You are listing 4 days and one ebook store. It is 6 day promotion with results over 7 days and in 4 ebook stores - kindle, nook, apple, kobo

Most Important Reason (please do not read this if you already believe your book is perfect)

You can take advantage of www.goonwrite.com's $20 premade cover sale and get yourself a beautiful cover

writing - 8/10 or 9/10
reviews - 8/10
cover - 3/10

Goonwrite.com - Cover 9/10. now your book is a super winner. All promotions get 25% to 50% better results
*******************************

Terms are there to direct away authors who are not a good fit. Unfortunately, a few authors want to use 'terms they make up in their mind' and not tell us and still have us promote it.
And everyone who is mad is making the wrong assumption that their book is already perfect and very sellable. If an author assumes that only reason book doesn't do well is that we did something wrong - it doesn't help anything. 
It's going out to a lot of readers. If your book is missing we are offering prorated refund in store credit to run it again. The implicit message (which some authors miss) is - why not figure out why results were low, fix it and get better results from every promotion you ever do, ever again


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

this is hilarious. 

If the terms are there to tell authors not to use the service, why not just decline their submission? 

This makes the promoter look horrible. If you are going to guarantee x amount of downloads, then it's on YOU to assess whether you can deliver. If you think a cover sucks and won't get downloaded, don't accept the business then. 

But while you seem set on telling OP that they need to check themselves. I would politely suggest that's what YOU need to do. Because I've yet to see anyone say anything positive about books butterfly on here. You're damaging your own business by how you are running it - ie. over promising and under delivering.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Dear Books Butterfly,

I do not like to get involved in these threads and do not like mud-slinging in either direction, but I think there is something you really need to address, and as you have personally replied on this thread then I feel it is acceptable to say it here.

Your clause: 
_3) IMPORTANT: Due to low refund rate (4% for Free Books i.e. 96% of free book promotions do not require a refund) and because nearly half of authors ask for store credit instead, we've shifted to all prorated refunds being store credit (usable at www.BooksButterfly.com or www.ReviewSt.com/getReviews/ or www.NewLaunchPromotion.com or www.TwitterBookPromotion.com). If this doesn't work for you please let us know beforehand._

This is NOT okay. If a promotion has not worked for an author they do NOT want store credit and to have another go, they want their money back. I can not speak for the law in America but in the UK you have 14 days to change request a full refund on any purchase. Telling people that half of authors ask for store credit is disingenuous. I am sure that if we asked for a show of hands on kboards that at least 99% of people would want their promised refund, it's their hard earned money, you should not be making it so hard to get it back. I understand the reluctance to part with the fees and I have no doubt you are doing all that you can to get promotions to perform well, but if you promise a refund then you should deliver one in the form it was paid.

Please think about addressing this clause as it is upsetting quite a regular number of authors on this forum.


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## WriterRon (Apr 24, 2017)

ireaderreview said:


> 1) Firstly, you have to understand that we work very hard to help authors
> 
> We ran your book twice as a curated, non sponsor pick in the past -
> 2016 - http://freebookdeals.com/2016/02/28/excellent-free-christian-romance-2-1-usa-today-bestselling-authors-100-free-kindle-books-10-excellent-kindle-book-deals/
> 2013 - http://freebookdeals.com/2013/10/02/133-free-kindle-books-for-wednesday-52-kindle-book-deals-oct-2nd/


So, having an ad on your site four years ago will ruin today's results?

How about this:

According to Similarweb.com, your site http://freebookdeals.com is listed at the global rank of #12,153,125 and of the tiny amount of traffic it gets, 53.55% comes from Kenya. HMM, maybe that's why your promos are not as popular currently as buyers wish they were.

Can you list any blogs or websites you use that have decent traffic? Do you use an email list? Or is your entire marketing program geared towards Twitter and the Apps you mention?

_Edited to fix quote_


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

WriterRon said:


> According to Similarweb.com, your site http://freebookdeals.com is listed at the global rank of #12,153,125 and of the tiny amount of traffic it gets, 53.55% comes from Kenya.


?


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

ireaderreview said:


> 1) Firstly, you have to understand that we work very hard to help authors
> 
> We ran your book twice as a curated, non sponsor pick in the past -
> 2016 - http://freebookdeals.com/2016/02/28/excellent-free-christian-romance-2-1-usa-today-bestselling-authors-100-free-kindle-books-10-excellent-kindle-book-deals/


Christian Romance? the book is about super soldiers fighting an antediluvian shapeshifter that eats people's hearts. There's ZERO romance in it.



> 4) Your book is not doing well because
> 
> You already promoted it to death on Top 100 Lists (via Bookbub) and got 25,000 downloads already
> We already mentioned it twice as a curated non-sponsor pick - once in 2013 and once in 2016. Which obviously lowers results now in 2017
> You are listing 4 days and one ebook store. It is 6 day promotion with results over 7 days and in 4 ebook stores - kindle, nook, apple, kobo


I'd love to see some results for those other stores, but I don't on my control panels for them. And yes, while I have gotten well over 25K downloads, they weren't all Bookbub. Almost 5 years after it's release, I keep getting a trickle of downloads of this book every month, normally in the 300-500 range. Given that the number of Kindle readers expands every day, and that Kindle is by far the largest ebook seller, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think I couldn't get another 25K downloads as I continue to release books in this series and new readers discover it.



> Terms are there to direct away authors who are not a good fit. Unfortunately, a few authors want to use 'terms they make up in their mind' and not tell us and still have us promote it.
> And everyone who is mad is making the wrong assumption that their book is already perfect and very sellable. If an author assumes that only reason book doesn't do well is that we did something wrong - it doesn't help anything.
> It's going out to a lot of readers. If your book is missing we are offering prorated refund in store credit to run it again. The implicit message (which some authors miss) is - why not figure out why results were low, fix it and get better results from every promotion you ever do, ever again


I wish you were half as good at marketing as you think you are at deflecting. When all is said and done, you guaranteed 1200 downloads. You failed to deliver, with not even half that amount. I don't want to try again, because you'll just be repeating the same thing.

Your service may do well for others, but that's probably an issue with _genre_ not cover. I've already proven this cover can get 25,000 downloads. Apparently, Bookbub marketed to the correct genre-readers, and you didn't. That's a failure on your part, not mine. Maybe you should drop the guarantee and the attitude.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

The BookBub clause makes no sense to me. You can rerun a BB ad and still get about 80% of the results from the first run, as most subscribers do not open the emails most days. The overlap with a completely different service seems like it would be a fraction of that.

Also, if you're criticizing the book in question, I think the solution would be to curate the list, rather than offer a guaranteed number of downloads. When I see a guarantee, I expect it to be a guarantee, and not for in-store credit, either.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

How crass is it to come on to a public message board and insult an author by telling them they should buy a premade cover? Wouldn't that be better handled in a PM, or by email, whether it was true or not? I'd think so, but this company is never hesitant at coming back at anyone who criticizes them or even questions something. There's a reason for the ignore list.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Stepping in....

Private messages should not be shared on the forum.  We need to protect the system, thanks for understanding. I've removed a post that did so.

However, if you get a private message that you think is inappropriate, you can report it to the admin staff--there is a report link in the body of every private message.

Or, if you simply don't want to hear from someone via PM, you can place them on ignore using forum settings in your profile.

Or, there's the delete key.

But they should never be shared here.  

Thanks again.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

So, I have used Books Butterfly a handful of times over the past 6 months or so to try to understand them for myself. I've never requested a refund because I stack promo and understood the disclaimer going in. I've run client books (SF) there at 99 cents that hit the Top 100 without BookBub support. I've run freebies (romance) that hit in the Top 100 before Books Butterfly promotions kick in. Maybe once or twice I've felt I've gotten close to the number of freeloads suggested early on, but certainly lately attributable numbers have fallen off considerably. The gamble for me is no longer worth it, and they're off my campaign list for good now.

I don't believe I ever saw their disclaimer concerning past BookBub runs. Like Monkish Scribe, this has me scratching my head. We have books that have run free multiple times on BookBub, and not always to diminishing returns. Occasionally we get even more freeloads the second time around. As with other sites where I advertise the same books more than once. 

The smaller sites, along with the larger sites who aren't aggressive about new subscriber acquisitions, do tend to see fall-off around freeload numbers after multiple runs. But fall-off from hundreds or thousands to dozens after only a couple of uses? Not in my experience.

And this is what concerns me about the statements from Books Butterfly above. Why would organic response to freebies from over the claimed 5 million subscribers diminsh that quickly? Why would BookBub runs have so much influence on the Books Butterfly list when it doesn't have nearly that much influence on any of the other lists I use?

And why can I get 20-30K freeloads in a single day (with an additional 6-8K over the next couple of days) from BookBub's  2.5M contemporary romance subscribers yet struggle to hit 1000 freeloads over 3 days with a list of -- let's say that 20% of the 5M claimed are romance subscribers -- 1M? 

And before there's accusation of cover/blurb/content issues or dilution from BookBub, what of the times that virgin free books are run on Books Butterfly to meh results and then *later* run on BookBub -- with the exact same cover/blurb/content -- to results that hit or exceed BookBub's expected performance? Or run on Freebooksy or BookSends or ENT and get twice the number of freeloads they get from Book Butterfly with subscriber lists just 1/20th to 1/10th the size of the 5M claimed by Books Butterfly?

Something doesn't add up. Whether the subscriber numbers are exaggerated or not engaged or simply don't click much on loooong lists of books without cover cues to alert subscribers to genres much less sub-genres of interest, the results are the same.

Now, to be fair, I was told on this forum early on that I wasn't a good fit for Books Butterfly: I run a lot of Book Bub ads. I run frequent, stacked freebie campaigns across multiple authors. I work with some successful authors. So, I guess my results prove Books Butterfly was right about that all along. But what I'm still trying to figure out is why that might be so for this company alone...


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

For the record, I wasn't advocating sharing private messages. I only said that things like what was said to the OP about their cover would have best been done privately, either in a PM or through the author's email. I thought it was rather mean to make those statements regarding a customer public.

Otherwise, I agree with PhoenixS. Something's not smelling lavender fresh in a foreign land.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

I had the same experience with Books Butterfly this month.
I used them at the start of a week's worth of stacked promotions and didn't see any results before the other, bigger promos kicked in later in the week. And I also got the email AFTER I'd paid that refunds would only be handled in store credits.

I'm not going to bother asking for a refund, partly because of the promo stacking and partly because I can't use store credits with them for anything - since it's the last time I'll be using their services.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

We're not going to allow derogatory language on either side. A recent post has been removed.

Discussing the situation with the mods. Topic locked.

eta: this topic will remain locked. However, CEMartin has asked us to post the following:

*I just wanted to report that after a number of emails back and forth (off Kboards) Books Butterfly has refunded my entire amount (I was only asking for 50%). I still question their business practices.*


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