# Big promises from Genius Media Inc dot com



## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Had an author friend get this email cold today from Genius Media Inc, and he passed it to me. 

I did a little digging but can't find much about them. Their website looks reasonably pro and complete. The owner looks to be one Widsoe T. "Wid" Bastian, and his picture matches an author Wid Bastian with a page on Amazon, and his name comes up associated with addresses in LA and Logan, Utah. That author page claims he's got a "feature film" called "Themi" that is supposed to be released in 2017, but there's nothing on the web about it. His own books aren't selling, but that's not always proof of anything, since some people can't write to market, but they can market a good product that they may not be able to produce.

The books his website claims as success stories (in the indeterminate past) do not look to be selling more than a book every few days (rankings in the six figures), so his results don't seem to last--also not proof of anything, because I'm sure he'll promote whatever someone nominates and pays for, but it's up to the author to create a sustainable selling product over time, I think.

Here's the email:

***


From: Widtsoe T. Bastian
To: XXXX
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 8:59 AM
Subject: Genius Media eBook Promotions

Dear XXXX

My name is Wid Bastian and I own Genius Media, an eBook promotion company. I’m reaching out to you today because you are a well branded Indie author. Your Sci-Fi Fantasy books are fantastic! I wish that I had time to read all of them. I have peeked at a couple, read reviews of your work and scanned ​your author bio.

Genius Media promotes eBooks using the Amazon KU program. We are probably not the answer to all of your marketing needs, but we can be a big part of the solution. For you, my estimate on an eBook promo is 10,000 plus downloads and 700 plus sales, positive ROI right out of the gate and huge page read income. We are affordable and we can promote a new book for you every 60 days. 

Our eBook promotion system has a consistent, verifiable track record of getting thousands of downloads and selling hundreds of eBooks per promotion. Some recent promotion results (Jan/Feb 2017):

Sharon Hamilton - Seal's Promise - 11,000 plus downloads, 1000 plus sales over 7 days
S.B. Alexander - Dare To Kiss - 11,000 plus downloads, 500 plus sales over seven days
Ed Dasso - Death Management - 11,000 plus downloads, 700 sales over seven days

I invite you to watch two of our eBook promotions live. Track the progress of these books – note where they rank before and after the promotion (both free and paid). There is no better method of proving ourselves to new authors than to invite them to watch us take a book to the top of the Amazon sales charts in real time.

For each of these books we predict that they will reach the top 100 on all of Amazon free on their promo day and they will reach the top 1000 on all of Amazon paid shortly after their free promotion. Just click on the book’s title to be taken directly to the book’s Amazon page.

Barry Finlay - The Vanishing Wife - March 29th
Greg Spry - Beyond The Horizon - March 30th

Here is our website – geniusmediainc dot com.

If you’re interested in learning more, please reach out. We do not mass market or email thousands of authors looking for needles in a haystack. We cherry pick the best books we can find to promote and we are definitely interested in speaking with you.

All the best,

Wid Bastian

***

Anyone ever used him?

I don't see any price on his promotion services, and that's the real determinant of ROI, isn't it? He might be able to spike some sales for a while, but at what price, and using what methods?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> using the Amazon KU program


Here is your red flag, waving oud and clear: LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!


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## German_Translator (Jul 26, 2015)

I suspect "Themi" is this:
http://www.geniusmediainc.com/about1-c23i8

A feature film and/or a documentary based on Fr. Themi's life and his work in Sierra Leone remains on the agenda once a biography of Fr. Themi is published. We anticipate moving forward with the movie in 2017.

-- and on Goodreads (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2854669.Wid_Bastian) the film was described as "scheduled for release in 2016"


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks. Seems like puffery if it's all "anticipated" but has no solid release date.

Still hoping to hear from someone who has used this guy and can tell us the results.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Haven't used him, and won't. 

What I'll say is that I followed the trail of the 3 books named as references and recently promoted books. I used Tracker, Google search and Yahoo search against my archive of emails from a few of the usual promoters.  

None of them had BookBub ads.

Here's what the information I came up with tells me:

SEAL'S PROMISE	
Advertised Jan 23 on ENT, Book Gorilla and Freebooksy
(NOT on BookSends or Robin Reads)
Best rank for Jan is #335

My comments: For a Seal book, that rank for those 3 sites on the same day seems awfully low (low as in the bad direction). Still, without more major players, gettting to 10K DLs organically for any book will be a tough, tough haul.

Assuming Tracker's data is correct*, it takes about 600 downloads to hit #335. Even if it held at that rank over 7 days, that's 4200 downloads. Even assuming double that for all venues/all regions, that's about 8400 downloads. And most books not promo'd daily tend to lose rank each day. But Tracker only goes back 30 days with daily info, so all I have is a best rank for the month to go by.
______

DEATH MANAGEMENT
Advertised Jan 26 on ENT, Book Gorilla and Freebooksy
(Not on BookSends or Robin Reads)
Best rank for Jan is #2

My comments: Just the opposite from the Seal book. That rank without more major players *appears* to be better-than-organic. I did a heavy promo stack (no BookBub) for a medical thriller a few days ago, which returned 7500 DLs, with ranks of #44, #46, #75 and #94. 

But #2 without a BookBub, without Robin Reads and without BookSends? Color me skeptical.
______

DARE TO KISS
Advertised Feb 28 on BookSends and Book Gorilla
(Not on ENT, Freebooksy or Robin Reads)

Of potential interest, it seems to have gone permafree on the very day its promo began.

Since Tracker goes back 30 days, it does provide us with the following daily best ranks for the book beginning when it went permafree on Feb 28.
#397
#532
#1303
#1740
#1448
#1508 and up from there
(It was as high as #8504 FREE a couple of days ago; currently at #7269)

My comments: Let's call it 500 downloads on a high-volume day to hit #400. Then it's falling through rank to plateau a bit at #1740 on Day 4. That's maybe 90 downloads. So at best 1000 downloads for the first 4 days on .com. Double that across all venues/regions and I'm not seeing more than 2000 downloads.
________

* Now, I didn't follow these books personally in real-time, and I only added these books to Tracker today. While the results for Dare to Kiss are pretty explicit, it *could* be Tracker hasn't had time to populate history for them properly.

So, I've added the two books now today that we're invited to follow at the end of the month. Rank history for those from today and going forward should be pretty darn accurate by the hour and by the day.

The hourly ranks, especially, could be quite insightful.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Um, if they're promoting books through KU, where are the page reads? Downloads are a variable number, we don't actually know how many were gotten (and yes, I know we can estimate through ranking). Unless he's talking about free downloads, which basically mean nothing once the price returns. From what I remember, it's pretty hard to get a large number of free downloads without using pretty much every available promotion list.

Anyway, I never trust people who email me out of the blue. Unless your friend contacted them first (and that doesn't seem likely, with all that "hey, I looked at your general category/genre book, and it looks like you could be going somewhere if you pay me money!".

I'm no marketing expert, but this smells fishy to me.


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

I'd be wary, too. It sounds like a click farm. Especially how the free download numbers are 11,000 for all three books.

If an author uses a click farm, Amazon considers them liable and can shut down their accounts. Even if the author wasn't aware it was a farm. Be careful who you promote with.


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## Steven L. Hawk (Jul 10, 2010)

I received the same email yesterday. Thought I might find something about it here and... well, here's a thread.

My email read almost verbatim to the one posted above, except he personalized the first para a bit:

"My name is Wid Bastian and I own Genius Media, an eBook promotion company. I'm reaching out to you today because you are a well branded Indie author. Your Military Sci-Fi books are fantastic! I wish that I had time to read all of them. I have peeked at a couple, read reviews of your work and scanned your author bio. *By the by... I live in Cache Valley, Utah. We are practically neighbors.*'

I will likely reach out to Wid and see what he has to say. Nothing to lose by finding out more info. If it seems legit, and I can recoup my investment, it might be worth a gamble. I'll try to post back here when I've learned more.


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

I got this email too, but I'm not in KU. It sounds like that's a requirement for their program to work. Price for the service doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere.


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## Berries (Feb 5, 2015)

> What I'll say is that I followed the trail of the 3 books named as references and recently promoted books


Phoenix- I know I can always count on you for data! Have I ever told you, I think you're a rockstar!


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Thanks, Phoenix. You provide an invaluable service.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Interesting how he is claiming 11,000 downloads PLUS 500-1,000 sales (I assume once the title reverts to paid?) That's one heck of a boost. I've not had any paid service come close to that, apart from Bookbub.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

You should always be wary of anyone who emails you. If they were any good, authors would be chasing them. You should also be wary of anyone who insists on your being in KU, as too may authors have found themselves banned for having a sudden huge jump in page reads. My advice: Head for the hills!


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## Steven L. Hawk (Jul 10, 2010)

Here's what I was able to find out.  First, my email to Wid:

---------------------------------------
Hi Wid,

I'd be interested in finding out more about your services.  Specifically, I'm looking for pricing, and for more data about how your services work. 

I've been in this business for a few years now, so have seen both good and bad from marketers.  You offer predictions for how well the upcoming titles will do.  How do you plan to reach those goals?

Thanks,
Steve
---------------------------------------

His response:

Hi Steven;

I don't know what it's like 200 miles up 1-84 today, but we are getting drenched in Cache Valley. The rain will not stop.

We use book marketing platforms (Book Gorilla, Kindle Nations Daily, OHFB, Freebooksy, etc.), blogs, other social media (including our own), Facebook ads and other techniques. This is effective because of the SEO work we do on the Amazon book page, our expanded genre selection, etc. It all comes together in a powerful promo stew. We drive readers by the tens of thousands to a book on a specific promotion day. We use a KU Free Day to gain traction and then switch to paid sales later in the promo day.

The numbers: $2000 for the first promotion of your book - this includes all of the setup - keywords, SEO your description and extended title, extensive genre research, proprietary email collection set up (you already do this, but maybe not in the most efficient way, we can discuss), everything - PLUS one full promo - all of the platforms, blogs and social media sites that will feature the book on its promo day. $1000 to promote the same book (2,3 4 or however many more times we re-promote). You keep ALL of the earnings - sales/page reads, etc. The better branded an author the better the result (generally).

Are all of your books on KU? If so, we can really boost your page read income (by the 100,000s). How many new titles are you publishing this year and next? We are fantastic at building a brand for authors on the way up - what we do results in a lot of new fan email collections and vastly improved Amazon author ranks.

Let's touch base again after you've watched the promos this week. Vanishing Wife is a re-promo. The first promo in 2016 resulted in over 1000 eBook sales. Greg Spry's book is a first promotion and it is Sci-Fi.

Best,

Wid Bastian
Genius Media

-----------------------------------------------

So, there you have it.  You know as much as I do on the pricing and process.  Based on my experience and knowledge, I will pass.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Steven L. Hawk said:


> The numbers: *$2000 *for the first promotion of your book...


 

I just choked on my coffee. 
$2,000 for 11,000 downloads. Last free run I had with Bookbub I paid $302 for over 20,000 downloads.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2017)

> Your Sci-Fi Fantasy books are fantastic! I wish that I had time to read all of them. I have peeked at a couple, read reviews of your work and scanned your author bio.


This statement alone has "swarmy used car salesman" written all over it. "Your books are great...even though I haven't actually read them, but I scanned your reviews and scrapped your contact data off your Amazon author page."



> The numbers: $2000 for the first promotion of your book - this includes all of the setup - keywords, SEO your description and extended title, extensive genre research, proprietary email collection set up (you already do this, but maybe not in the most efficient way, we can discuss), everything - PLUS one full promo - all of the platforms, blogs and social media sites that will feature the book on its promo day. $1000 to promote the same book (2,3 4 or however many more times we re-promote). You keep ALL of the earnings - sales/page reads, etc. The better branded an author the better the result (generally).


So...pay me $2,000 to do what you can do for yourself...much, much cheaper. Got it.


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## Steven L. Hawk (Jul 10, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This statement alone has "swarmy used car salesman" written all over it. "Your books are great...even though I haven't actually read them, but I scanned your reviews and scrapped your contact data off your Amazon author page."
> 
> So...pay me $2,000 to do what you can do for yourself...much, much cheaper. Got it.


Those were my thoughts as well.


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## Steven L. Hawk (Jul 10, 2010)

AliceW said:


> I just choked on my coffee.
> $2,000 for 11,000 downloads. Last free run I had with Bookbub I paid $302 for over 20,000 downloads.


Right?! I paid $275 for my last BB and netted just over 15K downloads.


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## Wid Bastian (Mar 27, 2017)

Hello out there to authors on the Kboards. I was alerted to this discussion by authors who use Genius Media to promote their eBooks and I feel that I need to comment to set the record straight.

We promote eBooks on the Amazon platform. While no company has a perfect track record, our results are consistent. We regularly achieve the results quoted in my emails posted on this forum.
I'm going to invite a few of our authors to comment as well. Why? None of the authors who have commented here have ever used our services.

I completely understand skepticism. I completely understand the need to get accurate information. If you would like to watch any of our promotions LIVE, please let me know - whether you are interested in our services or not. You cannot fake live results! At least judge us fairly, that's not too much to ask.

Our business model is very simple - we want to help authors sell more books. If anyone thinks our service is overpriced then that's their call. We have many happy clients who do not think our service is overpriced, they like what we do for them.

Reach out to me with any questions. I'm happy to share bona fide results, happy to share our promotions live ( in advance) so that anyone can watch and judge.

All the best,

Wid Bastian
Genius Media


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2017)

Wid Bastian said:


> Hello out there to authors on the Kboards. I was alerted to this discussion by authors who use Genius Media to promote their eBooks and I feel that I need to comment to set the record straight.


Welcome to Kboards. I do hope you did your research regarding this particular forum.   This forum is home to some of the most tenacious and successful indies in the business. And they WILL question every statistic, statement, and promise you make. And in some cases, may back up their assertions with graphs and flowcharts based on years of data they have accumulated.

You have been warned.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

So why do you charge $2k for these services? You've priced yourself so far away from the average indie UNLESS you can guarantee the author will make back the $2k and more. If they don't, do you do a partial refund?



Wid Bastian said:


> Hello out there to authors on the Kboards. I was alerted to this discussion by authors who use Genius Media to promote their eBooks and I feel that I need to comment to set the record straight.
> 
> We promote eBooks on the Amazon platform. While no company has a perfect track record, our results are consistent. We regularly achieve the results quoted in my emails posted on this forum.
> I'm going to invite a few of our authors to comment as well. Why? None of the authors who have commented here have ever used our services.
> ...


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> I'm going to invite a few of our authors to comment as well.


No need. Especially if they aren't already forum members. You can answer any questions others have. As Julie says, we vet service providers thoroughly here. Be prepared.

Personally, if I had $2K to spend, I could buy a lot of Bookbubs and other services on my own and have money left over. I certainly wouldn't risk getting a massive number of KU reads showing up on my account, making Amazon suspicious. People have had accounts terminated for that.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Wid Bastian said:


> I completely understand skepticism. I completely understand the need to get accurate information. [...] Our business model is very simple - we want to help authors sell more books. If anyone thinks our service is overpriced then that's their call. We have many happy clients who do not think our service is overpriced, they like what we do for them.


It's not a question of whether you can produce the results you claim. It's not a question of whether your services are overpriced.

The ONLY question that matters is HOW you get results. If you do it through bona fide double opt-in mailing lists, FB ads and the like, and nothing else - no problem. If you do it through convoluted incentivisation schemes with people who are never going to read the books - not so good. If you do it through click farms - very dangerous, because anyone adverising with you may possibly have their account shut down by Amazon. That's a potentially career-ending situation, so people are understandably twitchy.

You can appreciate that when you turn up out of the blue, an unknown, touting a service with impressive-sounding numbers, the more experienced Kboarders are going to approach you with extreme caution. But at least you're here answering questions, so brownie points for that.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

They still have many more questions to answer. We'll see if they do.



PaulineMRoss said:


> It's not a question of whether you can produce the results you claim. It's not a question of whether your services are overpriced.
> 
> The ONLY question that matters is HOW you get results. If you do it through bona fide double opt-in mailing lists, FB ads and the like, and nothing else - no problem. If you do it through convoluted incentivisation schemes with people who are never going to read the books - not so good. If you do it through click farms - very dangerous, because anyone adverising with you may possibly have their account shut down by Amazon. That's a potentially career-ending situation, so people are understandably twitchy.
> 
> You can appreciate that when you turn up out of the blue, an unknown, touting a service with impressive-sounding numbers, the more experienced Kboarders are going to approach you with extreme caution. But at least you're here answering questions, so brownie points for that.


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

> We use a KU Free Day to gain traction and then switch to paid sales later in the promo day.


Isn't this a BIG no-no with all of the promo sites? If you switch to paid at any point during the day they feature your book, it'll anger their subscribers which will get the author and/or your service black-listed by the advertisers.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

My rule is any promo site that needs authors badly enough to cold email them isn't doing well enough to help me. I delete emails like this.  The best promo sites are difficult to get booked for a reason.  If you have great results, you don't need to go begging. 

Basically... I'd run from anywhere that says they get guaranteed results or have opaque business practices.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Windvein said:


> Isn't this a BIG no-no with all of the promo sites? If you switch to paid at any point during the day they feature your book, it'll anger their subscribers which will get the author and/or your service black-listed by the advertisers.


Exactly. That's a huge red flag. If your book is listed on free site, it must remain free for the duration of the listing.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Wid Bastian said:


> You cannot fake live results!


But you can use tactics that violate the ToS to get those results. Is that what you do?


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Berries said:


> Phoenix- I know I can always count on you for data! Have I ever told you, I think you're a rockstar!


+1


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

So much 'reaching out' going on I'm surprised there's room for anyone to move.  Does nobody simply 'contact' people these days?


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## Wid Bastian (Mar 27, 2017)

Very interesting comments! We are new to Kboards, but we will be active from now on.

Regarding our techniques... In general it involves SEO work on an Amazon book site, genre selections, promotion of the book on book marketing platforms, blogs and social media, Facebook ads and other things we've learned over the past couple of years. Our promotional model is not static, we learn more every day. But for sure we do not in any way violate Amazon rules - just the opposite. We are always in conformance with Amazon guidelines. Also, we have a very good reputation with all of the platforms we use to promote our books. We have never had a situation where a book/author we promote has run into a problem due to the way we conduct our promotions. We do not buy eBook sales or downloads. Beyond that we are not going to comment further, nor should we have to. We worked very hard to develop our system and the exact way we promote is proprietary. 

Here is what we propose. We will be promoting several books over the next 30 days.  Although we work with both Fiction and Non-Fiction authors, let's stick to Fiction for now. We will select three of these novels for a "Kboards Trial". I ask that two people step forward to monitor these promotions and report back to this forum. I will get permission from the authors to release actual sales data to this forum. The before and after Amazon ranks will be there for all to see. We make the following prediction for each book - The book will reach the top 100 Free and the top 1000 Paid on its promo day on Amazon. Will some/all of the books do much better? Yep.  

That way all of the conversation, speculation, "warnings" (what's up with that, really) are moot. It's all numbers. I doubt that any eBook promotional firm has done this before (please do correct me on that if I'm wrong, that's my assumption). After the "Kboards Trial" is complete, the monitors can report back and I will release the actual sales numbers to the monitors. Then people can judge what we do fairly.

If this makes sense to anyone, please email me through this forum. The first two emails I receive will be the monitors. I will not send the monitors any marketing info or solicit their business in any way, just the books to monitor and the date of the promotion.

We do not respond in any forum to any type of personal invective, so please holster your vitriol. This is all about numbers, costs and ROI. We welcome this challenge. 

Best,

Genius Media


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

There are Warrior Forum-type ad sites that anyone can purchase free run ads for. I can think of a couple of such services off the top of my head, including FBS, which we nailed here as a bot-driven site, and which Amazon has explicitly cautioned against using. They're still in business, I believe. And still selling bot-driven downloads. As are others.

And yes, FBS came here and offered to run books free for 3 of our members, because they, too believed it was all about the results.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=169160.0
http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=179247.0

Getting an author into the Top 5 Free without using BookBub or even a couple of the other more-effective sites is extremely difficult to do routinely without the use of some of these bot-driven ad services. Vanishing Wife hit #2 Free on Sept 8. You've had at least 2 books hit #2 Free (and while I couldn't verify better than a #335 and a #397 rank for the other two books you've mentioned as references, I see on your site that you have a screenshot of the Seal book reaching #4 Free). For the books I manage, to hit#2 generally takes 23K-26K downloads, depending on time of year. (On Sept 16, 8 days after Vanishing Wife ran, we had 32,155 downloads in one day on the .com site and only maxed out at #4.)

With a full-bore one-day-only promo using non-bot-driven ad sites, 10-12K downloads without BookBub is about the max we can expect. Can you assure us the "etc" from the sites you named DON'T include FBS-type services that can get an author's account banned? Because, as others have said, it's "how" those books achieve the results they do that matters.

And, of course, the switching to paid in the middle of the free run is not cool if it's done on the day when the ad sites are running the book. That tactic will get the author banned from using those sites again. If you do it the day after, you get maybe up to a couple of hours visibility only before the book moves back over to the paid server, along with quite a few returns.

If you're truly on the up-and-up, then we won't see a huge rank jump in the freebies within a single hour, and we won't see the target books' alsobots swarmed with titles that would indicate bots. And the Amazon employees who lurk here won't send the guinea pigging authors warning emails about using certain services.

It's about ROI and results for us here too. And making sure that we're using white hat practices to get those results. To that end, we vet the vendors pretty rigorously. Don't take it personally. We want effective new avenues. But we've also been burned in the past. Our intent is to limit how often we get burned.


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

'Proprietary' is a horrible word. It pretty much equates to 'trust me,  though I won't trust you, or give you the vital information you need to ensure your business will not be subjected to unethical promotional tactics'. 

There's nothing you can do that all our veterans don't do and share freely. Proprietary is bullshit... unless you're hiding something. Incentivised downloads. Bots. Farms. Bait and switch. 

Either be clear about exactly what you do with MY money and MY book, or accept that you'll get a ton of criticism from the members here.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This statement alone has "swarmy used car salesman" written all over it. "Your books are great...even though I haven't actually read them, but I scanned your reviews and scrapped your contact data off your Amazon author page."


Many years ago, when I was working as a driving instructor, a magazine rep phoned me and told me: 'your reputation is absolutely fantastic. We are only including services who have really good reputations in our new magazine. Because your reputation is absolutely fantastic, we want to give YOU a chance to be listed.'

I mean, you could almost hear the capital letters, underlined screaming down the phone. My response to her was that because my reputation is absolutely fantastic, I don't need to advertise.

That's what this reminds me off; butter them up, tell them how great they are and that their magazine is exclusive and elite and they'll pay.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

OP:

You say you use SEO on an Amazon book page. How? No one can edit my book page but Amazon and me.

You say it is not possible to fake live results: It is. I have seen it done many times by so-called internet marketing gurus who will show potential mugs sorry, customers, how their bank accounts and clickbank accounts are growing.

Results mean nothing. It is lasting customers collected through a service, like Bookbub, who matter.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2017)

Doglover said:


> OP: You say you were alerted to this thread by customers of genius. I think it more likely you were messaged by a google alert you have set up to do just that.


This was my thought, too. Anyone who reads the forums here and saw the post would have just posted themselves if the service was legit. We would have gotten a "Hey guys, I used them on such and such data and this is what I got." Because that is what people do around here. They share information. This is probably the most open forum you will ever find regarding such discussions.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Who's 'we'? You, your laptop and the starbucks crowd next to you?  I hate people using it when it's clear that ONE transparent person should be answering the questions.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This was my thought, too. Anyone who reads the forums here and saw the post would have just posted themselves if the service was legit. We would have gotten a "Hey guys, I used them on such and such data and this is what I got." Because that is what people do around here. They share information. This is probably the most open forum you will ever find regarding such discussions.


Not necessarily. I've pointed vendors to threads on this forum discussing their services without posting myself.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

I'd like to see this. Wid Sebastian, can you tell me the names of the books you are promoting, so I can keep an eye on them?


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> He might have access to various blogs, but many of the promoters do and they don't ask for $2,000 upfront to use them.


On that note, Raminar Dixon's http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,248239.0.html. This guy will gladly stack your promos for you, and you won't have to worry about anything violating Amazon's ToS (because he's both a vetted and trusted member of the indie publishing community _and_, more importantly, he actually tells you what he does).


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

WriterSongwriter said:


> I'd like to see this. Wid Sebastian, can you tell me the names of the books you are promoting, so I can keep an eye on them?


It's in the first post.

Barry Finlay - The Vanishing Wife - March 29th
Greg Spry - Beyond The Horizon - March 30th

I'm sure everyone will be watching how those titles perform and calculating approximate ROI for their $2,000 spent.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

Very well stated.



PhoenixS said:


> There are Warrior Forum-type ad sites that anyone can purchase free run ads for. I can think of a couple of such services off the top of my head, including FBS, which we nailed here as a bot-driven site, and which Amazon has explicitly cautioned against using. They're still in business, I believe. And still selling bot-driven downloads. As are others.
> 
> And yes, FBS came here and offered to run books free for 3 of our members, because they, too believed it was all about the results.
> 
> ...


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Reopening after editing out material that *assumed* the vendor in question is a scammer and deleting multiple posts that jumped from assumption to ridicule.

Folks, careful and responsible vetting is what needs to happen here.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

The Vanishing Wife:  #23,574 Free in Kindle Store at 8:30 am (East coast US)

I'm going to be out most of the day, so I likely won't be able to keep up, but I'll be checking at the end of the day to see where it's at.

I'm not really sure how this company is any different than any other that does the work of setting up promos, which is what it seems to do. When you factor in the cost of doing those, I don't know if there's any money in it for them (unless there's a further charge for the promo fees). Still, it's nothing I'm likely to pay to use, so it's really a moot point to me. I just don't want to see other authors spend money they don't need to, especially if the methods would put their account at risk. We've seen it before. It's not pretty.


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

At 9:06 am (EST), The Vanishing Wife is #3,432 Free in Kindle Store.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

I cannot see The Vanishing Wife


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## Karver (Mar 29, 2017)

I've been following this forum for two or three days now and as an author using Genius, I thought I should chime in. I'm the author of The Vanishing Wife and I used Genius for the first time in September 2016. Like many here, I was skeptical and since I'm an accountant in real life, I was especially concerned about the price. I asked a lot of questions and decided to take the plunge. The monetary results were way better than expected. I made about 3X my investment through sales and page reads and royalties have continued to come in. There are also the intangibles, like reviews, which went up by more than 40 after the promo.

In fairness, I used them again for my second thriller, A Perilous Question, and the results were not as good. From a strictly monetary point of view, I have made back about 60-70% of my investment, but again, there are intangibles. As far as I know they didn't do anything different. There are no guarantees. It's impossible to predict what the readers are going to buy.  

As for methodology, I have no reason to believe they are doing anything unethical. If I find out they are, I will stop using them immediately and they are well aware of that. Wid's comment about SEO refers to researching and changing categories and keywords on Amazon and improving the book blurb (which I'm not good at). If they think the cover needs to be improved to attract attention, they will do that. We left the cover of The Vanishing Wife alone.

For those following the results of my promo today and tomorrow, keep in mind this is the second time around for this book so I don't know what to expect. I definitely wouldn't expect the results to be as good as the first time, but it's also about getting noticed among all the other books out there.


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

Hi Karver,

I'm so glad you posted. Can you say anything more about what Genius Media did for you? Are you aware of what promos they have arranged for you? If this is the second time promoting the book, are they doing anything differently this time? If no blurb or cover doctoring needed to be done, did they reduce the price for you as a returning customer?  

Did you change your book from free to full price on the day of your previous promo? That is something I'm still concerned about. I'm not sure if Wid misspoke in his previous message or not, but the way it's written currently is a huge red flag.  

If this is a two-day promo, what is being done today and tomorrow?

Thank you!

P.S. Vanishing Wife is now  #141 Free in Kindle Store (11:37 am EST)!


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #141 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime
#2 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense

The Vanishing Wife is doing great. Congratulations to promoter and writer.


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## Karver (Mar 29, 2017)

I'm pleased and a little surprised that The Vanishing Wife is doing as well as it is given that it's the second promo. In response to Windvein, I can't comment much on the methodology used by Genius. I guess when I hire an expert to do something, as long as I'm satisfied that what they are doing is not unethical or illegal, I just expect results and leave the way it's done up to them. If the results aren't there I won't use that expert again. 

When Genius redoes a cover, there is a small additional cost. As I mentioned, we left the cover alone for The Vanishing Wife. 

The cost of the second promo was significantly less than the first. I think Wid mentioned the cost of the second in one of his responses. My agreement is structured differently than his quote, but I can assure you the price is MUCH less than the first promo. I believe they use the same methodology for the second promo. My understanding is that it costs less because the research required for the promotion (keywords, etc.) has already been done.

As for whether the price is flipped from free to paid during the day, it was done late in the afternoon on the free day for the first promo. I didn't realize it was such a concern until I got a one-star review from someone who tried to download the book free and couldn't. It did not happen for my promo of A Perilous Question and it will not this time. Tomorrow the book is back to paid and the residual effects of reaching #1 in different categories, hopefully, kicks in. I don't know whether they have done the flip on the free day for anyone else since. I can see where it would be an issue.

I suggest for anyone interested in using Genius, contact them directly with a list of questions and make sure they are fully answered to your satisfaction before entering into a contract. Wid is very approachable.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Karver said:


> ...In response to Windvein, I can't comment much on the methodology used by Genius. I guess when I hire an expert to do something, as long as I'm satisfied that what they are doing is not unethical or illegal, I just expect results and leave the way it's done up to them....


If you don't know *how* results are achieved, how do you know what they are doing is in compliance with Amazon's TOS?

If you have no idea what this company does to produce the rankings/downloads, then how do you know they aren't using warrior forum services or similar? The second part of the above sentence (_I just expect results_) seems to negate your concerns about ethics.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #80 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Crime

The Vanishing Wife keeps rising.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Ranks are updating *very* quickly today across the board -- relatively, not much lag at all.

I'm following the ranks of 5 BookBub'd freebies as comparable benchmarks since we've seen this promoter's books in the past playing on the same turf. Looks like the target book has been advertised on Freebooksy and BookSends, but not on Robin Reads or ENT.

Ranks for the target book and the BB'd books. Times are Central Time. I'll update this post a couple of more times throughout the day.


--11:0012:30Vanishing WifeTH 14180After the EndingSF 7212Red HillHF 313Glorieta PassHF 555Scent of the SoulHR 8514AdamCR 351


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## raminar_dixon (Aug 26, 2013)

crow.bar.beer said:


> On that note, Raminar Dixon's http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,248239.0.html. This guy will gladly stack your promos for you, and you won't have to worry about anything violating Amazon's ToS (because he's both a vetted and trusted member of the indie publishing community _and_, more importantly, he actually tells you what he does).


Hey, thanks for the mention. 

I originally thought about offering flat-rate, tiered marketing packages instead of the Promo Stacker. I probably would make even more moolah in the short term with such a strategy, but I don't really care about that. Some (*but not all*) outsourced marketing services are predatory, violate Amazon TOS, or are steeply overpriced. When you hand someone thousands of dollars and there's little to no transparency with how your money is being spent, it should not be surprising if corners are cut, money is skimmed, your publishing account gets smacked, etc. You gotta be careful.

Let me be clear; I'm not dissing on any marketing service in particular, and certainly not Genius Media. I've never used them, and never even heard of them outside this thread. They may very well be super-upstanding good citizens of the internet that deserve nothing but the highest praise, a firm handshake, and a rich, steamy mug of coffee brewed from finest Colombian beans. I'm just saying that I encourage everyone to form their own opinion about any service provider based on experience and reviews before spending a dime. This industry is rife with individuals who can't wait to separate authors from their money without offering a fair service in exchange.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but what matters to me is trying to help authors avoid being ripped off or tearing their hair out in frustration since marketing or trying to create a bestseller can be pretty darn challenging on your own sometimes. If I can offer a service that helps satisfy that need and make it a win for everyone, awesome. Heck, I even pass most of the special discounts I get on to my clients. How many marketers do _that_?


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

Hi Karver,

Thanks for the reply. I see now that Wid did specify that a 2nd promo of a title is usually half price at a thousand. 

From the sounds of things, are you giving Genius Media access to your KDP dashboard? I ask because it seems like you're pretty hands off the day of promo. If you aren't, that's fine, I'm just making sure. If you are, how does that work exactly? 

Thanks again for the information.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Vanishing Wife isn't being advertised on ENT this go-round, even though ENT seems to be a go-to advertiser for this promoter. Some of the ad sites -- like BookBub! -- certainly police their policies rigorously. I have no idea if there's a connection or not, but ENT's TOS does state:

_"If you raise the price of your book before the end of the promo period - the day that your book is posted - we will not promote any of your books in the future. This leads to negative feedback and subscribers unsubscribing from our service which hurts other authors who are promoting their books with ENT."_
http://ereadernewstoday.com/terms-of-service/

The promoter also mentioned using OHFB. This is on their TOS page.

_"If the price of the book changes before 11:59pm EST the day of the ad, it will be removed from the featured books. The promotion will not be rescheduled and no refund will be issued."_
https://ohfb.com/advertise/


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

And at 2:50PM EST The Vanishing Wife is #41 Free in Kindle Store. 

It's also: 
    #1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
    #1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Police Procedurals


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

Yes, I'm very curious what the promoter's response to changing the price on the day of promotion will be. If his numbers are accurate, then it might very well be an excellent service, but if it gets you banned from promoting on the big promo sites, that's a problem. But if he has some response to that that will banish my concerns, I would be tempted to use his service . . . provided I could come up with the money.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Karver: You mentioned A PERILOUS QUESTION was also promoted. I see it hit #17 in December, but I can't find that it was advertised on any of the ad sites I follow. Do you know where it might have shown up? There's some correlation possibilities there since you weren't asked to swap the price over to free for that book if it wasn't being promoted on any of the major ad sites.

I do see it had an ad on Freebooksy on Jan 18, and the best rank I can find for Jan is #135. Did Genius Media help promote it then?


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

PhoenixS said:


> Vanishing Wife isn't being advertised on ENT this go-round, even though ENT seems to be a go-to advertiser for this promoter. Some of the ad sites -- like BookBub! -- certainly police their policies rigorously. I have no idea if there's a connection or not, but ENT's TOS does state:
> 
> _"If you raise the price of your book before the end of the promo period - the day that your book is posted - we will not promote any of your books in the future. This leads to negative feedback and subscribers unsubscribing from our service which hurts other authors who are promoting their books with ENT."_
> http://ereadernewstoday.com/terms-of-service/
> ...


It's back to full price. I'm not in the US, has the price been reverted to paid on the same day as the free run?


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

AliceW said:


> It's back to full price. I'm not in the US, has the price been reverted to paid on the same day as the free run?


Why yes, yes it has. It's 5:20 pm Central Time.

ETA: That's only 3:20 pm Pacific Time.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

PhoenixS said:


> Why yes, yes it has. It's 5:20 pm Central Time.


Thank you. We now have evidence that this service is violating the TOS of the advertisers they are using, which will result in the author being blacklisted.

I'm seeing some odd also-boughts too, which is making me go hmmm...


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

I've known people who advocate doing this (early change back to paid) for exactly these reasons--no overnight lag in climbing the paid lists, lots of people who will buy it anyway at 99c or download it if they happen to be KU users. Because Amazon itself doesn't forbid this, the main risk is to lose access to certain promo sites, but those promo sites have to notice--and how many customers notify the promo site? So It appears this is 1) de riguer for this service and 2) only moderately risky, i.e., no disasters here if you are willing to trade away access for a few thousand dollars.

I think most people would be willing to try this service if that tactic were removed, and if there were a guarantee of a positive ROI with a refund if it misses the mark--perhaps not a full refund, but something. That would put some skin in the game for Genius to make sure of accepting and promoting only suitable books.

One thing, though, is that because the service overlaps with a lot of what I (and others) already do, and have already done for all of my reader magnets, it's unlikely to provide me a positive ROI. It's much more likely to provide a good ROI to someone with more money than time, say a good writer that's a poor marketer, but has the capital to invest in a package to both improve the reader magnet(s) and to have them promoted, and with follow-on books for read-through potential.


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## raminar_dixon (Aug 26, 2013)

David VanDyke said:


> ...the main risk is to lose access to certain promo sites, but those promo sites have to notice--and how many customers notify the promo site?


Heh. A _lot_. And they notify us pretty much immediately. I get flooded with dozens of emails (and plenty of unsubscribes too) anytime a book isn't the price I advertised, and especially if it is supposed to be free but isn't anymore sometime within the 48 hour period after the newsletters go out.

Those who have tried this bait and switch type of thing with me lose access. It's far too damaging to a service to allow it to happen continuously. I have a steadily growing list of authors who I won't accept advertisements from or work with with ever again, and I'm willing to bet that most other promotional venues have something similar. The quickest way onto that list is to pull a stunt like this.


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

One thing that concerns me is that Karver said they wouldn't be cancelling the free day for this promo. That implies that Genius Media may have access to his Amazon account. Karver or Genius Media, could either of you clarify on this?


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

David VanDyke said:


> So It appears this is 1) de riguer for this service and 2) only moderately risky, i.e., no disasters here if you are willing to trade away access for a few thousand dollars.
> 
> I think most people would be willing to try this service if that tactic were removed, and if there were a guarantee of a positive ROI with a refund if it misses the mark--perhaps not a full refund, but something. That would put some skin in the game for Genius to make sure of accepting and promoting only suitable books.


Until I found out how they were getting a book to #2 Free without BookBub and without two or more of the other most effective sites around, especially now that we know the promoter is willing to skate ad site rules, I would absolutely not be willing to try this service even if that one tactic of switching early to paid was removed. I have guesses as to what's going on. And why a second run is cheaper than the first. And with tomorrow's book being on a virgin run, I'll predict right now that it heads for the Top 5, unless the promo sites that booked an ad are reading this thread and think twice about running it. If that's the case, then probably Top 10 still. Because there's only way I know of that books with no ad footprint can hit #17 in the store during the high-volume month of December. Maybe you know another way that would make you feel comfortable with this service. If so, please share! Or maybe you're not understanding that it's not just access you're losing when generic you deliberately engages in tactics that are detrimental for everyone.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Honestly, 

I'm not comfortable with the price changing tactics nor with how much they charge. I'd probably go with Raminar's new service over Genius Media's. Ram's a known quantity and very well respected in the romance community. Not too mention his promo stacker is much more affordable than Genius Media's. 

While GM's price switching tactic probably isn't black hat marketing, it certainly falls within gray area methods. As Amazon's been extra vigilant lately, I wouldn't risk using such methods. But to each her/his own.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

AliceW said:


> If you don't know *how* results are achieved, how do you know what they are doing is in compliance with Amazon's TOS?
> 
> If you have no idea what this company does to produce the rankings/downloads, then how do you know they aren't using warrior forum services or similar? The second part of the above sentence (_I just expect results_) seems to negate your concerns about ethics.


I expect the lady who was recently banned was delighted with her results, her sudden jump in page reads, until Amazon banned her for using a click farm, which she didn't use. It was some promotion company, just latching onto her as someone to point towards its paying customers.

Forgive me if I don't have full confidence in someone who has a free book in the top 100. I've had many free books in the top 100 without paying out $2000 to get them there.


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## Karver (Mar 29, 2017)

I haven't read all the comments in the Forum but I do want to clarify something I said earlier. When I originally signed on with Genius, I had the option of giving them access to my Amazon dashboard or making changes myself. I opted to give them access since I could see everything that was done and was copied on any correspondence related to my book (and by the way, they do correspond with Amazon regularly).

My understanding with the latest promotion was that the price of my book would become paid today and that it would remain 0 all day yesterday. I noticed last night it had changed to paid. I immediately contacted them and was assured that the platforms they work with do not prevent this activity. 

Once again, I would encourage anyone looking for a promoter to contact Wid directly to have your questions answered.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> Honestly,
> 
> I'm not comfortable with the price changing tactics nor with how much they charge. I'd probably go with Raminar's new service over Genius Media's. Ram's a known quantity and very well respected in the romance community. Not too mention his promo stacker is much more affordable than Genius Media's.
> 
> While GM's price switching tactic probably isn't black hat marketing, it certainly falls within gray area methods. As Amazon's been extra vigilant lately, I wouldn't risk using such methods. But to each her/his own.


I'm not comfortable with it, either. Even if not explicitly against TOS, Amazon has been known to change how they interpret the rules. With the FBS thing, at first Amazon was okay with it, but later authors were getting emails that directly said use of the service would result in termination of accounts.

It also seems odd to me that such a company has not shown any presence here, on one of the main forums for indie authors, until after this thread started. I won't say why this is odd to me, due to fear of the cattle prod, but I imagine it has occurred to others.

And no way is anyone getting access to my account just to stack promos. Good grief.

Anyway, the book did well. I didn't see anything that was unusual, considering how many promos were going, but the true test of free is to see how much sell through there is. That's were the benefit lies, not in how many downloads one got, or what the free ranking is, because that doesn't follow through onto the paid lists unless there are sales.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

she-la-ti-da said:


> I'm not comfortable with it, either. Even if not explicitly against TOS, Amazon has been known to change how they interpret the rules. With the FBS thing, at first Amazon was okay with it, but later authors were getting emails that directly said use of the service would result in termination of accounts.
> 
> It also seems odd to me that such a company has not shown any presence here, on one of the main forums for indie authors, until after this thread started. I won't say why this is odd to me, due to fear of the cattle prod, but I imagine it has occurred to others.
> 
> ...


I believe the owner of the company popped his head out and promised to show himself more often, but so far he has only sent in his one supporter. I assume his stating that he allowed Genius access to his Amazon account is in response to my asking how he managed to manipulate SEO on there; not something I would do either.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2017)

Karver said:


> I haven't read all the comments in the Forum but I do want to clarify something I said earlier. When I originally signed on with Genius, I had the option of giving them access to my Amazon dashboard or making changes myself. I opted to give them access since I could see everything that was done and was copied on any correspondence related to my book (and by the way, they do correspond with Amazon regularly).


Well as far as I know, since we aren't suppose to have multiple accounts with Amazon, your dashboard is tied to your Amazon.com account (and your audible account if you have one). Which means they also had access to:

All of your credit cards on file with Amazon
Your personally identifiable information
Your bank info on file with Amazon
Your entire purchase history
Private wish lists
Your Amazon 1099s
etc. etc. etc. etc.

That is a whole lot of access to give to a stranger you met online.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well as far as I know, since we aren't suppose to have multiple accounts with Amazon, your dashboard is tied to your Amazon.com account (and your audible account if you have one). Which means they also had access to:
> 
> All of your credit cards on file with Amazon
> Your personally identifiable information
> ...


Especially one who wants $2000 to exercise the privilege!


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

I love kboards with all my heart.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Greg Spry's Beyond the Horizon is the second book we were invited to watch live. However, that's Book 2 in the series, and is in far fewer sub-categories than Book 1, Beyond Cloud Nine, which appears to be the book actually scheduled, as it's the one that went free today.


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## ejdasso (Mar 30, 2017)

I've used Genius for several book blast promotions. They helped one of my books become a #1 Amazon best-seller. I'll mention here what I've shared w/ others who've inquired: 

I had developed a healthy skepticism about various "promotional" resources available  for indie authors. I've wasted a lot of time and money on a number of them and was ready to step away from writing entirely because of my frustrations w/ inability to find a successful marketing technique.

That said, thank goodness I was introduced to Wid and Mike! They are the first and only promoters who actually delivered tangible results.  Wid sets realistic expectations and then those have been hit.

Of course, results vary, and I'm sure they won't promise you anything because they can't, but their releases do seem to be doing well for the authors that I've followed who released w/ them. 

I remain cautiously optimistic.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

ejdasso said:


> I've used Genius for several book blast promotions. They helped one of my books become a #1 Amazon best-seller. I'll mention here what I've shared w/ others who've inquired:
> 
> I had developed a healthy skepticism about various "promotional" resources available for indie authors. I've wasted a lot of time and money on a number of them and was ready to step away from writing entirely because of my frustrations w/ inability to find a successful marketing technique.
> 
> ...


A no. 1 bestseller in what? The entire .com store? The category? Free? I have a book currently in the best selling area of three categories; so you see my puzzlement.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

ejdasso said:


> I've used Genius for several book blast promotions. They helped one of my books become a #1 Amazon best-seller. I'll mention here what I've shared w/ others who've inquired:
> 
> I had developed a healthy skepticism about various "promotional" resources available for indie authors. I've wasted a lot of time and money on a number of them and was ready to step away from writing entirely because of my frustrations w/ inability to find a successful marketing technique.
> 
> ...


Welcome to KBoards!

While we allow members to post here anonymously, in this particular thread, anonymous references are not useful to our membership. We have no way of knowing or checking the validity of your information. I think our membership would appreciate any specific information you are willing to provide. EDIT: Is "ejdasso" your author name?

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well as far as I know, since we aren't suppose to have multiple accounts with Amazon, your dashboard is tied to your Amazon.com account (and your audible account if you have one). Which means they also had access to:
> 
> All of your credit cards on file with Amazon
> Your personally identifiable information
> ...


It doesn't have to give access to all that. You could limit the reveal by using a different account for shopping than you do for publishing. For instance, if my KDP account is under [email protected], I could make a [email protected] account to use for shopping, reviewing, my Kindle books, my Prime music, and all the other elements of the Amazon ecosystem. Hopefully folks who give others access to their KDP account do take this step. In the KDP dashboard, I don't think your SSN and full bank account number are shown on the screen, though I could be misremembering. If the site allows someone to download a 1099 directly as a PDF (I've never tried to do that), it seems like a very bad idea to give anyone else access, since your SSN is on there. That'd be a deal-breaker for me. Identity theft is such a problem.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> It doesn't have to give access to all that. You could limit the reveal by using a different account for shopping than you do for publishing. For instance, if my KDP account is under [email protected], I could make a [email protected] account to use for shopping, reviewing, my Kindle books, my Prime music, and all the other elements of the Amazon ecosystem. Hopefully folks who give others access to their KDP account do take this step. In the KDP dashboard, I don't think your SSN and full bank account number are shown on the screen, though I could be misremembering. If the site allows someone to download a 1099 directly as a PDF (I've never tried to do that), it seems like a very bad idea to give anyone else access, since your SSN is on there. That'd be a deal-breaker for me. Identity theft is such a problem.


Access to the shopping area doesn't give anyone access to the publishing area and would be useless to Genius in this regard. They wouldn't able to place keywords on the product page, for instance. With access to the kdp area, they can go into your account and see what your tax information and bank details are.


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

Hi ejdasso,

Welcome to Kboards. Are you the author of Past Aghast: A Medical Action Thriller (Jack Bass Black Cloud Chronicles Book 2)? 

I see genius media promoted that book. Did they also do the new cover? On their website, it appears they have an older cover. I like the current one a lot more. Any details you can give would be appreciated.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Windvein said:


> Hi ejdasso,
> 
> Welcome to Kboards. Are you the author of Past Aghast: A Medical Action Thriller (Jack Bass Black Cloud Chronicles Book 2)?
> 
> I see genius media promoted that book. Did they also do the new cover? On their website, it appears they have an older cover. I like the current one a lot more. Any details you can give would be appreciated.


It's ranked at half a million in the kindle .com store. Is that the bestseller he was talking about?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Doglover said:


> Access to the shopping area doesn't give anyone access to the publishing area and would be useless to Genius in this regard. They wouldn't able to place keywords on the product page, for instance. With access to the kdp area, they can go into your account and see what your tax information and bank details are.


Right. I didn't say otherwise.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

The Vanishing Wife
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #643 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#3 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Hard-Boiled
#12 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime
#14 in Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Conspiracies

Ok, the promotion is working. Well done to promoter. Congratulations to writer. 

Beyond Cloud Nine
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #26 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Military > Space Fleet
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Galactic Empire
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Cyberpunk

So, this promoter can repeat his success. Well done to promoter. Congratulations to writer. 

@promoter, $2000 is a lot of money compared to BookBub, but Bookbub has strict participation rules. You have created a great promotion and demonstrated that it works. I would have no problem using this service. Especially as you seem to be promoting books for some time and the accounts with the books you promoted haven't been banned by Amazon. I take that as proof that you are working within Amazon TOS. You have nothing to be ashamed of, so keep visiting this place and I'm sure interested in hearing about new books you're promoting. I love to follow their success.


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## A J Sika (Apr 22, 2016)

I agree with WriterSongwriter,

This promoter doesn't seem to be doing anything illegal, and what problems he has (i.e. the changing of the price before end of the day) can easily be rectified. The only reason I wouldn't use it is because of the high price when what they're mostly doing is stacking promos (which I can do myself). But for authors with the spare cash.... well, do you!


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

So, Beyond Cloud Nine is at #26 already from a cold start. Comparison to today's BookBub freebies to get our baseline stats. Will update at least once or twice, but if it flips to paid...

Updated table:



11:3012:302:006:00BeyondSF26241111Be MineTH17111Pres ShiftTH24322ShoppingCR21433Keep KatHR38855SummerNA69341410SanctuaryCF36544Gone GreenCF461276Big Girl'sWF401388



WriterSongwriter said:


> @promoter, $2000 is a lot of money compared to BookBub, but Bookbub has strict participation rules. You have created a great promotion and demonstrated that it works. I would have no problem using this service. Especially as you seem to be promoting books for some time and the accounts with the books you promoted haven't been banned by Amazon. I take that as proof that you are working within Amazon TOS. You have nothing to be ashamed of, so keep visiting this place and I'm sure interested in hearing about new books you're promoting. I love to follow their success.


So your only criterion is whether or not an account has been banned from Amazon? That the promoter is obviously violating the TOS's of the ad sites being used doesn't concern you? And you don't think he should be ashamed of those blatant violations that every advertiser agrees to when they book a promo with these companies? Are there no other red -- or at the very least yellow -- flags here for you?


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

WriterSongwriter said:


> I would have no problem using this service. Especially as you seem to be promoting books for some time and the accounts with the books you promoted haven't been banned by Amazon.


So your personal criteria for using any promo service are 1. it gets results and 2. no accounts have been banned (yet). Well that will give you a huge array of services to work with.

Personally, there are so many orange/red flags I wouldn't go near this place and suspect it's a matter of *when* accounts are banned, not if. Here's my check list of warning signs and I'm not even mentioning the outrageous 2k price tag:

1. Only works with KU titles (ding ding ding!)
2. Wants access to your KDP account (which means apart from having access to ALL your titles, they can access all your personal banking and tax information)
3. Violates TOS of promoters by reverting to paid on day of free run
4. Does have not a newsletter list (Bookbub not only tells you how many subscribers they have, but breaks it down by category).
5. Stacks a few ads with second/third tier advertisers (assuming they haven't been blacklisted yet for their practices)
6. No transparency as to where the remainder of clicks/downloads are coming from
7. Funky also-boughts
8. No sell through to other books by the promoted author

I look at my list of orange/red flags, and I have a pretty good theory about where all the downloads are coming from. We have enough promo threads here to know it's not coming from BarginBooksy or OHFB. The information is there for each author to draw their own conclusion. To some, they don't care how results are achieved, they simply want the rank or letters and methods are irrelevant. To others, we're a bit more risk adverse and prefer to play within TOS.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

The Vanishing Wife is sold at $3.99. The rank is 640 in the paid store. I'm interested to find out if it is sticky or not. Does anyone know what it's highest position was in the paid store?


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

For statistical purposes, here's some stats to show a few places 'Beyond Cloud Nine' was promo'd at (there may be more, but these are only what I could find):

*Beyond Cloud Nine*

Freebooksy
Alexa ranking: Global: 98,947; *US: 26,359*

eReaderiQ
Alexa ranking: Global: 137,478; *US: 47,838*

ereadernewstoday.com
Alexa ranking: Global: 357,325; *US: 117,974*

icravefreebies.com (under 'Action/Mystery/Thriller)
Alexa ranking: Global: 227,261;* US: 52,862*

kindlenationdaily.com
Alexa ranking: Global: 301,287; *US: 91,822*

DigitalBookToday
Alexa ranking: Global: 642,476; *US: 227,351*

Freestufftimes (under Thriller/Mystery/Action)
Alexa ranking: Global: 199,987;* US: 39,984*

Readingdeals.com
Alexa ranking: Global: 550,373; *US: 232,514*

Edited to add its current ranking at time of this posting:

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #11 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Military > Space Fleet
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Cyberpunk


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

wheart said:


> For statistical purposes, here's some stats to show a few places 'Beyond Cloud Nine' was promo'd at (there may be more, but these are only what I could find):
> 
> [list of 8 sites deleted for brevity]
> 
> ...


For comparison, when I ran my mini-Bookbub effort in January, I threw 14 sites at a virgin free book (epic fantasy), including all the non-Bookbub big ones. At the equivalent time, my book was ranked #31. It eventually peaked at #22 with just under 7K downloads.[/list]


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

PaulineMRoss said:


> For comparison, when I ran my mini-Bookbub effort in January, I threw 14 sites at a virgin free book (epic fantasy), including all the non-Bookbub big ones. At the equivalent time, my book was ranked #31. It eventually peaked at #22 with just under 7K downloads.


Yes, I remember seeing that thread. That was really cool, Pauline. What a great job you did!


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

wheart said:


> Yes, I remember seeing that thread. That was really cool, Pauline. What a great job you did!


Well, thank you, but the point was that even throwing the kitchen sink at it, my book was at #31 at a point in the day when this guy, with (apparently) a smaller list of promo sites, is at #11. So then question is: what else is going on to get that book to a position that's normally only possible with a Bookbub?


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Well, thank you, but the point was that even throwing the kitchen sink at it, my book was at #31 at a point in the day when this guy, with (apparently) a smaller list of promo sites, is at #11. So then question is: what else is going on to get that book to a position that's normally only possible with a Bookbub?


A few of us have a theory as to how it is achieved without Bookbub (HINT: promoter *only* works with KU titles) but without proof I wouldn't say anything, except that if Amazon wises up, it might be a matter of when accounts are banned, not if.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Well, thank you, but the point was that even throwing the kitchen sink at it, my book was at #31 at a point in the day when this guy, with (apparently) a smaller list of promo sites, is at #11. So then question is: what else is going on to get that book to a position that's normally only possible with a Bookbub?


Whether the vendor has other methods, I have no clue. I'm not in cahoots with them, I merely posted the stats in the interest of this thread's discussion.

Let's say there was nothing else the vendor did to boost the book's rank, if I were to take a stab at what might also make one book out-perform another is simply the readers' interest in it. This book seems to be also listed in the Action/Thriller genre as well as SF/Fantasy (if you look at his keyword subgenres at the bottom of the page, he's in Suspense, Thriller, Cyberpunk, Alien Invasion, Dystopian, Galactic Empire, Military/Space Fleet, Space Opera, etc.), so it's possible the pool of readers are wider due to that.

Your book is only listed as Coming of Age, Sword & Sorcery & Epic

Other than that, I'm as clueless to any other reason as anybody (based on the facts and what we can only/actually quantify, I might add) 

Edited to add: I'm also not in favor of terminating a freebie run if the motivation is to catch those sales when the reader thinks it's still free. However, if someone needed to terminate a freebie run for another reason (like they offered it for 5 days, then decided to only offer it for 3 and save the other two for later) then that seems fine to me. As long as it's not advertised as the entire 5 days, then I see no problem with that.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

(Post with ranks above has been updated.)

Another thing to keep in mind with the comparison to Pauline's documented run: Her book had a fast initial climb to #53 around noon CT, then kept climbing steadily through the day. Late evening, although the freeloads were tapering off, the book was still climbing because the books holding rank from BookBub runs TWO days past were losing their freeload history and falling as her history caught up and past theirs. 

The target book today was #24 at 12:30 CT -- about the same time Pauline's book was hitting #53. By 2pm CT, the target book was #11, behind a very strong BookBub showing. And that's #11 without a few of the Tier 1 sites Pauline used.

The other thing to be watching is cross-sales to Book 2. Right now its rank is around #36K, meaning probably 7 sales+borrows. At #11 for several hours, the target freebie has probably had 12-15K downloads MUCH earlier in the day. Early enough for rank on the paid side to be responding. That's a 0.05% (less than one-tenth of a percent) cross-sell rate.

Pauline's Book *3* saw 7 sales over 6000 downloads, for a 0.116 immediate sell-through rate. That's not counting her Book 2 because it was 99¢ and an easier sell. AND those were actual sales; she had borrows on top of that. Without the author or promoter to verify, we don't know if those 7 sales-equivalents are all actual sales or a mix of sales + borrows.

For Book 2 of the target book's series to have an equivalent number of sales that Pauline's Book 3 saw would mean it would need about 2.5 times that number, or 17 sales. That's going to be a rank in the middish-teens.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

I'm poppin' some popcorn. I'm kinda anxious to see how this all unfolds


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

*Reminds self never to try to match wits with Phoenix. Like bringing a knife to a gunfight.*


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> *Reminds self never to try to match wits with Phoenix. Like bringing a knife to a gunfight.*


LOL.

You know, I run freebies a LOT. I usually manage 10-12 free in a month, with varying degrees of promo on 5-6 of those and the rest coattailing along. We've had a book free via BookBub just about every month since KU2 began (we'll have two in April). Before that, with more authors in our press, we'd routinely have 2-5 books with BookBub ads per month, about half of them free. So I've probably seen at least 3 dozen books (likely more, I'd have to count them) in the Top 5, with probably half of those hitting #1 Free.

Outside of BookBub, I've in the past had as many as 10 books in the Top 100 at the same time. During our recent monthly campaigns, I've been seeing 3 or 4 books in the Top 100 simultaneously. We're all-in with KU with 85 titles right now.

I watch the data. I know the trends. I've managed the giveaways of more than 2.6 million books. I've managed probably close to 500 Select free runs. All organic. All white hat (OK, maybe the occasional tinge of gray, but letting readers know other books in the series are on sale is a service  ). I know what's achievable with the usual, organic ad sites on both the free side, the sell-through side, and the borrows/page-read side.

Am I infallible in my analyses? Of course not. But I do consider myself as much an expert on this topic as anyone. I have the data. I have the experience. I posted the above stats not to brag but to provide the basis for where my opinions come from. And I'm watching both these runs closely...


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

PhoenixS said:


> ...And that's #11 without a few of the Tier 1 sites Pauline used...


That's another point some people are glossing over. Yes this service is stacking (some) promos. But they aren't top tier advertisers. They are smaller sites that *might* generate a couple of hundred downloads, not the tens of thousands needed for the ranks achieved. You could also go price up those lower tier ads and you won't come anywhere near the 2k price tag. So where is the money being spent? That again leaves room for speculation as to what other (non-transparent) methods are being used.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

For the record, I'm rooting for the author of that book. I hope your paid sales and follow-throughs of your other books are successful too. Hopefully, everything was done above-board. Best wishes!


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

Beyond Cloud Nine
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #11 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Science Fiction
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Galactic Empire
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Military > Space Fleet

It seems to peak at 11. It's still free.

The Vanishing Wife
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #701 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#4 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Hard-Boiled
#12 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime
#14 in Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Conspiracies

It's losing rank in the paid store, but slowly. Book is at full price of $3.99

Again congratulations to the promoter and the writers. You did an amazing job. Keep us updated about the sales at full price. Because if the book remains sub 1000 that means a lot of sales going into the weekend.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

WriterSongwriter said:


> It's losing rank in the paid store, but slowly. Book is at full price of $3.99


You do realize paid rank has completely stalled in the store and hasn't updated at all for anyone in the past 5 hours, right?


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

To me, the sell-thorughs are the key indication. Appropriate sell-throughs to book 2, it's legit. Not enough, there's some FBS-style BS going on.

I went back to look at my free bookbubs+stacks and my sell-through onto a 2.99-3.99 book 2 is about 0.2% the day of, and 1% within the next 30 days.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

In a bit of what I consider an ironic twist, it appears today's target book took a hit by a flurry of what looks to me like botted kids books (I recognize 2 of the 7 titles from the Top 20 yesterday -- because making the Top 20, falling, then making it again with *multiple* kids book is so easy to do once, that twice in as many days should be a piece of cake -- and I've seen the same super-generic author names in umpteen such runs in the Top 20). Botted books from the same promoter also tend to travel up and down the ranks together, just as these did yesterday. Organically advertised books don't do that. The probable botted books kicked the target book back from #11 to #20. In addition, 2 of the books with BookBubs the day before leap-frogged the target book. Cross-sales to Book 2, by the looks of the current rank (#27K-ish), are pretty anemic.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

PhoenixS said:


> Cross-sales to Book 2, by the looks of the current rank (#27K-ish), are pretty anemic.


Yesterday's title has had zero sell through to the other thriller the author has written from what I have observed. Its rank hasn't moved from around #450,000.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

WriterSongwriter said:


> The Vanishing Wife is sold at $3.99. The rank is 640 in the paid store. I'm interested to find out if it is sticky or not. Does anyone know what it's highest position was in the paid store?


If it (or any book) is borrowed under the KU program, I think such a borrow will be included in the paid ranking. That being the case, it could be borrowed several times without ever earning the author a penny. Is that why it must be in KU?


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

So, this morning, we see that the target freebie is back to paid at the correctly scheduled time, hitting the paid ranks at #14,136.

6:50 15,183 $3.99
5:49 15,183 $3.99
4:48 14,136 $3.99
2:46 20 $3.99
23:44 20 $0.00
22:42 20 $0.00
21:41 11 $0.00

Book 2 of the series never really saw more than about 8 sales-equivalents for the day, with an early reversal of rank:

6:44 36,901 $3.99
5:43 36,901 $3.99
4:42 34,900 $3.99
3:41 31,286 $3.99
2:40 31,286 $3.99
1:39 28,925 $3.99
0:38 30,656 $3.99
23:37 30,656 $3.99
22:36 27,732 $3.99
21:35 36,707 $3.99
20:34 36,707 $3.99
19:33 36,707 $3.99
18:32 36,707 $3.99
17:31 36,707 $3.99
16:30 45,220 $3.99
15:29 56,543 $3.99
14:28 56,543 $3.99
13:27 87,687 $3.99
12:26 239,755 $3.99

As a recent compare, my medical thriller was free for 5 days a couple of weeks ago, pushed by most of the Tier 1 sites. It's been on, I dunno, 13 or 14 free runs in the past and was #1 Free on the back of a BB ad a couple of years ago, so it's been around the block a lot and has earned about $30K lifetime. Still, it managed about 7600 downloads, and it returned to paid at  #13,689. My *organic* sales/borrow rank has bounced around between #15K and #25K since. Book Report tells me I've earned about $250 on it. Which, because it's a standalone and I have no other thrillers in my catalog, might mean earning back its ad costs in another couple of weeks. Note, however, my ad costs were not $2000.

Does it surprise me the Beyond Cloud Nine freebie did NOT go back to paid early on this run? Not really. It looks like there were different goals and strategies for the two target books to begin with.

So what was the difference between Vanishing Wife, which was stalling out at #30 on the free list before it was switched to paid and which re-entered the paid list at #589 (about 300 sales-equivalents) and Beyond Cloud Nine, which had probably close to twice the downloads but returned to paid with only the equivalent of about 20 sales (all borrows in this case, too) behind it?

The last free book we had that returned to paid in the #500 ranks took the exposure of hitting #1 Free and hanging in the Top 20 Free for 4 days with about 55,000 downloads to do it. That book hung sub #1000 at $3.99 for about 3 weeks. Vanishing Wife is over the #1K mark 1.5 days later.

Did cutting the free day off early by itself spur its 300 sales/borrows? Of course not. Although it likely angered a few customers and resulted in extra returns. If real readers aren't responding to the book, it will sink with visibility or not. 

I have a very good idea what's going on here. I have a very good idea why a second run costs less. And why KU is a stipulation. And *if* this promoter is using cost-per-action services directly or buying those services from another party, that's inorganic rank manipulation (and very possibly page-reads manipulation), which Amazon frowns on mightily. And guess what? Amazon can't go after the 3rd-party promoter -- they'll go after the authors that use those promoters.

Apart from that, the quoted bit from ENT in a post above about why they frown on authors who cut free runs short during the day the book is being advertised on their site says pretty eloquently why that particular tactic hurts not just the reputation of the ad site but also lessens the effectiveness of those sites for ALL authors by diluting readers' trust. 

Wid has stated they'll be running several books in the coming month, and it's obvious they've run several since June. If subscribers keep running into price-reverted freebies, they'll eventually unsubscribe, meaning fewer subscribers for the rest of us and higher costs for the ad sites to replace those lost eyes, and higher ad prices as those costs to acquire escalate. There's a reason ad sites can't support those tactics, and the trickle-down for that bad behavior affects us all.

As does any inorganic rank manipulation on Amazon.

I do hope Wid pops back on here so he can help us understand how what looks to be inorganic rank manipulation and violations of the ad sites' TOS's is all above-board. If these results CAN be achieved via white hat methods, I'm all ears. But right now, I'm highly, highly skeptical.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> I have a very good idea what's going on here. I have a very good idea why a second run costs less. And why KU is a stipulation. And *if* this promoter is using cost-per-action services directly or buying those services from another party, that's inorganic rank manipulation (and very possibly page-reads manipulation), which Amazon frowns on mightily. And guess what? Amazon can't go after the 3rd-party promoter -- they'll go after the authors that use those promoters.
> 
> Apart from that, the quoted bit from ENT in a post above about why they frown on authors who cut free runs short during the day the book is being advertised on their site says pretty eloquently why that particular tactic hurts not just the reputation of the ad site but also lessens the effectiveness of those sites for ALL authors by diluting readers' trust.
> 
> ...


Well done, Phoenix. Been following the updates and watching those books. I'm especially suspicious of the KU stipulation and the lack of sell through.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

The Vanishing Wife
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #1,129 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#6 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Hard-Boiled
#16 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime
#20 in Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Conspiracies

I would say this is a win for the promoter. 

Beyond Cloud Nine
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #11,035 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#66 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Cyberpunk
#85 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Cyberpunk
#85 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Hard Science Fiction

This is obviously not worth $2000. There wasn't much sell through to book 2 either. 

I think the difference in the campaigns was when the transition from free to paid came. The Vanishing Wife was manually moved back to paid, before the free day and night ended. Beyond Cloud Nine was not manually changed from free to paid. I think the extra night free destroyed the ranking of the book. The promoter should have done what he always does and not listened to the sirens on the sidelines. He has a responsibility towards the writer after all. But I'll keep watching. This was fun and eye opening. I would love to hear a post game analysis from the promoter and the writers themselves.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

WriterSongwriter said:


> The Vanishing Wife
> ...
> I would say this is a win for the promoter.


How do you figure this?

No cross-sales to the other books he has, so no profit there. If every one of those 300 sales-equivalents to achieve its best rank were actual sales and none were refunded, *cough cough*, that means the book earned $825.

BUT, being in KU, likely 50-90% of those were borrows. Assuming 100% read-through (or flip-throughs to the end) of every one of those borrows, that's probably around $630.

The rank is falling fast. It's not selling or being borrowed in any significant way to fall that quickly. If the author paid anything over $900 (and that's being generous, I believe; I think anything over $600 is closer to the mark), he's probably going to lose money.

That's the money stream I see. Would you mind sharing with us what the stream you're seeing looks like?


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

In one of David's posts where he quoted Wid:



> Sharon Hamilton - Seal's Promise - 11,000 plus downloads, 1000 plus sales over 7 days
> S.B. Alexander - Dare To Kiss - 11,000 plus downloads, 500 plus sales over seven days
> Ed Dasso - Death Management - 11,000 plus downloads, 700 sales over seven days


They state 7 days, so let's give them those 7 days, since they only put their freebie for one day rather than five. Most people take a few days to get around reading a book, lol

Here's some other things I found ...

Here's a page I found via Google search, which might explain where some of the other download/sales are coming from. They state they work with Author Platform Rocket (for those familiar with ILVN). They also state they are doing FB ads. I've included the contents below:



> APR - Genius Media
> 
> In December of 2016 Genius Media launched a new eBook marketing program for the top tier (USA Today/NY Times Bestselling) Indie authors in conjunction with Author Platform Rocket. The APR-Genius program is designed to combine the power of blast promotions with the steady sales performance of continuous social media advertising (targeted ads) primarily on Facebook.
> 
> ...


It seems they had this in beta and have now reached out to 'successful' authors, which is probably why some of you got the email. It doesn't sound as though their intention is to reach out to everyone. They might want tried-and-true books that have a history, yet could use a boost every now and then.

Also Genius Media does seem to be a marketing company, and not only for authors. They own a music magazine. The domain dossier shows ravermag.com registered under Widtsoe Bastian.

Here's ravermag.com's Alexa ranking: Global: 243,012; *US: 36,565* with a 7.5% bounce rate which is well above average, so it's a popular online magazine it seems.

What does the above info tell me? I doubt Genius Media is trying to scam anybody. The higher price tag for their services might include FB ads, as well as working with Author Rocket Platform. Also, a portion of their fees probably go to their own/staff's labor/time with setup, etc.

And for those who feel that they might charge too much for that part of it, well, it would depend on what they feel their time is worth. Like some editors and book designers: some charge too cheap (because they just need the work) and people question if they're any good. Some charge what they feel they are worth and get only those who can afford them.

In my opinion, that seems to me what this company is offering: services for either those who are already successful and can afford it or those who just do not want to do all that legwork themselves.

It would be good if the vendor came back and discussed more and would also assure people that they'll not continue the practice of cancelling a free run prematurely. That is something most would object to and could hinder signup of clients based on that.

And if Genius Media is doing anything considered 'blackhat' then hopefully, after reading this thread's conversation, they have considered what those practices will do to their reputation, and to the trusting authors who put their author careers in their hands.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

PhoenixS said:


> The rank is falling fast. It's not selling or being borrowed in any significant way to fall that quickly. If the author paid anything over $900 (and that's being generous, I believe; I think anything over $600 is closer to the mark), he's probably going to lose money.


And lose a lot _more_ money if the account gets banned.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

The Vanishing Wife
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #1,511 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#10 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Hard-Boiled
#20 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime
#25 in Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Conspiracies

This ranking at $3.99 is a great result. This promo is well worth the money for a bestselling or midlist writer who spends $2000 on editing and $1000 on a cover. This $2000 promo, which can be written off as a business expense, will get him in the top 1000 paid store within the first 30 days of the book's launch where the algos and visibility can do their magic. 

Beyond Cloud Nine
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,605 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#22 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Cyberpunk
#28 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Hard Science Fiction
#28 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Cyberpunk

And the promoter pulls an ace out of his sleeve. The book is selling at $4. This is a great result. And I especially like how he demonstrated how him manually changing the status from free to paid or letting Amazon do it gives different trajectories to a book's rise to the top. 

I can only conclude that the promoter knows what he's doing and both of his promotions are huge successes. Especially if your book is new and you expect to make a good chunk of money, this is a great alternative to BookBub. 

In short both BookBub and Genius Media are legitimate and can be used to launch a book successfully in the paid store. I would use this service and recommend it to all.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

WriterSongwriter said:


> In short both BookBub and Genius Media are legitimate and can be used to launch a book successfully in the paid store. I would use this service and recommend it to all.


Nope. Cannot disagree more and its clear that 1. you haven't read or understood any of Phoenix's posts and that 2. all you care about is a rank, methods are irrelevant.

Bookbub is an advertiser with clear transparency and a long history of results and an excellent ROI. Bookbub states how many subscribers it has in each category and approx number of downloads to expect.

GeniusMedia has no reach of its own. It promo stacks and has already proven it violates TOS of advertisers (which will get the author banned with that service), requires access to an author's KDP dashboard (which is just a whole load of nope) and uses non-transparent, possibly pay per click methods to manipulate rank (something which violates Amazon's TOS and will result in the author's account being banned if Amazon catches on). Further for the sum of $2,000 there is minimal to zero sell through to other titles by the promoted authors (another sign of pay-per-click methods) and the titles are dropping like stones in the paid ranks since the "promotion." In short, sure GeniusMedia achieves a great short term rank (which is all that matters to some) but doesn't attract long term genuine readers who would go on to purchase other books by the author.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

WriterSongwriter said:


> This ranking at $3.99 is a great result.


Not necessarily. Rank, although comforting, can be deceiving. My latest book was at 50,000 odd yesterday; today it is 25,000 or thereabouts. But I only sold one copy yesterday and had 700 page reads. You see where I'm going? It is not a bad rank (not brilliant but not bad) and a quick rise from yesterday, but has only resulted in monetary terms of £4.70 since yesterday. I assume it jumped rank because of borrows.

If the rank isn't making the author thousands, it is useless.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

WriterSongwriter said:


> I can only conclude that the promoter knows what he's doing and both of his promotions are huge successes. Especially if your book is new and you expect to make a good chunk of money, this is a great alternative to BookBub.
> 
> In short both BookBub and Genius Media are legitimate and can be used to launch a book successfully in the paid store. I would use this service and recommend it to all.


Wait, what? A brand new promoter with nontransparent methods and a price point several times higher than even the most expensive services the equivalent of the venerable and reliable BookBub? On the basis of two results chosen as examples by the promoter himself?

All I need to hear now is 'It's a new paradigm' and I'll know we're back in 2005, with me trying to explain to my coworkers that no, taking out a loan for ten times their annual salary to get on the property ladder is not a really great idea.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

WriterSongwriter said:


> The promoter should have done what he always does and not listened to the sirens on the sidelines. He has a responsibility towards the writer after all.


Does the promoter not also have a responsibility toward the advertiser he contracted with?

As a consumer, I've more than once clicked on a book in an email by one of the book advertisers only to find that the book on Amazon was not at the price (discounted or free) that had been advertised. (Clicking on the day the email was sent out.). I've thought it was an error by the advertiser but now I'm thinking that the author or promoter was playing games.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

WriterSongwriter said:


> And the promoter pulls an ace out of his sleeve. The book is selling at $4. This is a great result. And I especially like how he demonstrated how him manually changing the status from free to paid or letting Amazon do it gives different trajectories to a book's rise to the top.
> 
> I can only conclude that the promoter knows what he's doing and both of his promotions are huge successes. Especially if your book is new and you expect to make a good chunk of money, this is a great alternative to BookBub.
> 
> In short both BookBub and Genius Media are legitimate and can be used to launch a book successfully in the paid store. I would use this service and recommend it to all.


Are you associated with Genius Media somehow? There's something about your phrasing that makes me wonder if you're not a disinterested third party in this discussion.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

MonkishScribe said:


> Are you associated with Genius Media somehow? There's something about your phrasing that makes me wonder if you're not a disinterested third party in this discussion.


I'm glad I'm not alone. Also, may I refer the poster to this: 'And I especially like how he demonstrated how him manually changing the status from free to paid or letting Amazon do it gives different trajectories to a book's rise to the top.'

What does that mean? How can he changing the price manually without going through Amazon? Is this even possible? I don't see how?


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Doglover said:


> I'm glad I'm not alone. Also, may I refer the poster to this: 'And I especially like how he demonstrated how him manually changing the status from free to paid or letting Amazon do it gives different trajectories to a book's rise to the top.'
> 
> What does that mean? How can he changing the price manually without going through Amazon? Is this even possible? I don't see how?


I also don't understand why WriterSongWriter is ignoring all of the warning signs from this promoter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you schedule a Kindle promo and it starts, doesn't Amazon lock it in place? Can you end it prematurely?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

dianapersaud said:


> I also don't understand why WriterSongWriter is ignoring all of the warning signs from this promoter.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you schedule a Kindle promo and it starts, doesn't Amazon lock it in place? Can you end it prematurely?


You can stop a free promotion, but it could take up to 24 hours to stop it all over the world.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

WriterSongwriter said:


> And so you didn't download the book or you didn't buy the book. That would be my reaction too. What we're doing in this thread is vetting a service called Genius Media. We need to mention all, good and bad and let people who need promotion decide for themselves.


And if nobody downloads it having discovered the price has gone up, it won't reach the paid rankings you keep harping on about. That being the case, the only way to achieve those ranks are through KU borrows. That is borrows, not page reads of which the author might not get any.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

WriterSongwriter said:


> I can only conclude that the promoter knows what he's doing and both of his promotions are huge successes.


You didn't read Phoenix's posts? You should. They're incredibly scientific.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

WriterSongwriter said:


> @Crow Bar Beer, there is a lot of talk about stickiness of rank. If a promotion puts your book in front of thousands of readers, which happens I guess when you get launched sub 1000 or even sub 10000 in the paid store and they don't want your book, I don't think you can blame the promoter for that. Another book would have stuck. Same thing is true for sell through to other books. When I was in a band years ago and we were invited to play our new song on a huge radio station in LA, we thought we had it made. We played the song, hundreds of thousands heard the song during their morning drive and still did not go and buy the CD. I didn't blame the radio station. Promotions are like radio stations. Just because it was promoted, it was given visibility doesn't mean it will connect with people. I think this promotion gives you a sugar high of visibility, that's it. Then it's up to the readers to get interested in your book or walk past it. But people also complain about Bookbub and short tails. I think readers see the book, but they are just not excited about reading the book. That happens.


It's actually fairly unusual for a promoted book to become sticky. It does happen, and it's awesome when it does, but most of us rely on gaining readers from the promo itself -- people who will read the other books in our catalogs and our future publications. If a promoter is leaning on click-farming to push a free book or a KU book up the ranks, then few readers will be gained because real readers aren't doing the downloading/borrowing. That means the only way the promo could be helpful is if the book happens to become sticky, which again ... rare. Meanwhile, the author incurs risk because Amazon has been closing the KDP accounts of authors it thinks have been using click farms. This is why there's so much attention here to _how _Genius is pushing books to such strong rankings. The "how" matters a great deal because if Amazon closes your KDP account, and you can't convince them to reopen it, you won't be publishing anything on the platform again, and that's where most of us get the majority of our income.


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Hmmm.

WriterSongwriter joined early March. He shared HERE that he used to be involved in writing screenplays. He also shared on a post earlier in this thread that he was in a band when he was younger. I guess that's what his avatar is indicative of.

Genius Media launched on UpWork in 2015 and doesn't appear to be too successful.

We know from Wid's bios on LinkedIn and Amazon that he too is/was a screenwriter. And I don't know. Is it just me, or is does his LinkedIn photo look like an older version of WriterSongwriter's avatar? Maybe it's just the extremely similar hairline? Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there?

I could be way off track here, but the serious campaigning on behalf of Genius despite lots of documentation to be wary of the service made me put my Google Fu to work. And all the coincidences are making my neck tingle.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I did some digging, and found a UK based singer songwriter that I think belongs to that avatar. I would link to it, but that would be outing his IRL person. I don't think it's the Bastian guy, though.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

dianapersaud said:


> I also don't understand why WriterSongWriter is ignoring all of the warning signs from this promoter.


Because he simply doesn't care. His only criteria for success is rank - methods/cost/ROI are irrelevant. There are lots of authors with that attitude, you only have to look at how many people flock to dubious promoters. Some people want the rank/letters and don't care about potential negative consequences.

Also from scanning his posts, I don't think he has published anything yet, so has no grasp on the effects of using non-transparent/black hat methods to obtain borrows. He also has no practical understanding of the value of sell through and gaining genuine long term readers vs a one day rank surge.


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

MonkishScribe said:


> I did some digging, and found a UK based singer songwriter that I think belongs to that avatar. I would link to it, but that would be outing his IRL person. I don't think it's the Bastian guy, though.


Thanks for digging further. Past comments indicate he either is or was in the States, but that can certainly change at any time. As for avatars, they really don't mean anything, do they? Neither of us are replicas of ours. 

It's just his posts here are screaming to me that he has some sort stake if the game. This kind of dogged determination, that seems to ignore all reason, makes me a mite suspicious. But then, the older i get, the more cynical I become.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

ImaWriter said:


> It's just his posts here are screaming to me that he has some sort stake if the game. This kind of dogged determination, that seems to ignore all reason, makes me a mite suspicious. But then, the older i get, the more cynical I become.


I totally agree. It isn't just that he's overlooking the obvious warning signs--sadly, that seems to happen a lot around here--but that there's something strange in the way he's supporting the OP that sounds like he's the hustler's sidekick. I might be wrong, of course. Like you, I'm fairly suspicious of people who come out of nowhere promising amazing results. We've seen a lot on this site over the years to make one suspicious.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

> @Crow Bar Beer, there is a lot of talk about stickiness of rank. If a promotion puts your book in front of thousands of readers, which happens I guess when you get launched sub 1000 or even sub 10000 in the paid store and they don't want your book, I don't think you can blame the promoter for that. Another book would have stuck.


Which is why I mentioned science. Hard data exists on how books at different rankings behave. It's just like forensics. The effect you're describing is already being taken into consideration by those who observe the rankings statistically. It doesn't explain the discrepancies people are seeing. Amazon has the DNA analysis lab. Whenever the DA presses hard enough for them to use it, they know *exactly* what happened with every single copy. I don't watch crime drama, so that analogy might be slightly whacked, but _Amazon_ knows what I mean.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Early last year there was a poster bragging all over the kdp forum that her book was in the top 100 of the .com store, not just once, but many times. Look what you can do with enough advertising, sort of thing. The book was .99 cents and she was spending over $1000 a day on Facebook ads. She wasn't making anything near enough in monetary terms to justify that sort of money and once the price went up to $2.99 it dropped into the millions.

This is the sort of thing, Songwriter, that we mean about rank being irrelevant if the methods to get there are dubious.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

Genius Media won this. They showed they can do what they promised they could do. Apart from that everyone is repeating the same arguments which didn't persuade me the first time, so won't persuade me the fifth time. This discussion is done. You can put a fork in it.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

WriterSongwriter said:


> Genius Media won this. They showed they can do what they promised they could do.


Sure they can - with non transparent possibly black hat methodologies. You've already demonstrated that if (when?) you ever publish something, your sole criteria you use to judge a promotional service is rank. Are you going to put your money where your mouth is and hand over 2k and access to your KDP account to these people? If so, please come back when you do and share your results.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

WriterSongwriter said:


> Genius Media won this. They showed they can do what they promised they could do. Apart from that everyone is repeating the same arguments which didn't persuade me the first time, so won't persuade me the fifth time. This discussion is done. You can put a fork in it.


Nobody is aiming to persuade you of anything. We're discussing amongst ourselves. Stay or leave as you wish, but don't try to shut it down. That's actually pretty telling.

Be seeing you.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

David VanDyke said:


> To me, the sell-thorughs are the key indication. Appropriate sell-throughs to book 2, it's legit. Not enough, there's some FBS-style BS going on.
> 
> I went back to look at my free bookbubs+stacks and my sell-through onto a 2.99-3.99 book 2 is about 0.2% the day of, and 1% within the next 30 days.


To your concern, David, after probably 15K freeloads for Book 1, Book 2 (Beyond the Horizon) has managed maybe a dozen sales/borrows over 4 days, inclusive of the free run day.

2nd Apr Highest: 50,877 $3.99
Lowest: 87,145 
1st Apr Highest: 41,630 $3.99
Lowest: 73,106 
31st Mar Highest: 27,732 $3.99
Lowest: 54,361 
30th Mar Highest: 36,707 $3.99
Lowest: 239,755

Current rank is #70,910.

Pretty much a smoking gun.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

WriterSongwriter said:


> Genius Media won this. They showed they can do what they promised they could do. Apart from that everyone is repeating the same arguments which didn't persuade me the first time, so won't persuade me the fifth time. This discussion is done. You can put a fork in it.


There's none as deaf as them that wanna be.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

PhoenixS said:


> To your concern, David, after probably 15K freeloads for Book 1, Book 2 (Beyond the Horizon) has managed maybe a dozen sales/borrows over 4 days, inclusive of the free run day.


So... 12 into $2000 gives us a cost of what? About $166 per sale? Ouch.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Phoenix: Thanks. I came to the same conclusion. I would expect book 2 to be selling at 30 a day-ish minimum with 15K downloads, for a while.

No sell-thru means no real readers, which means bot downloads.


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## bobfrost (Sep 29, 2013)

My latest series has about 50% sell-thru to book 2, and from book 2 to book 3 is nearly 100% (people who go to book 2 are invested and want to finish the trilogy is my explanation for this). I can show you charts that demonstrate this cleanly. A strong book 1 turns into solid sales down-stream.

15,000 free giveaways should net  substantial sales and KU reads on book 2, unless those free loads are fake fake fake. Sure, we can assume free giveaways convert to book 2 sales at substantially smaller numbers than paid sales on book 1 do, but even if we figure a horrific result (like 1%), that would still be 150 sales on book 2. 150 sales makes a very noticeable dent in sales rank!

Anyone who has ever had a bookbub on a book 1 will tell you book 2+ has a nice solid swing upward in the aftermath. Serious sell-through occurs. Hundreds or even thousands of sales.

If we assume 15,000 free downloads happened on this promo, and Phoenix is right about a dozen sales on book 2 (and he seems right given the sales ranks he's showing here), that means this new "genius" promo has a book 1 to book 2 conversion rate of 0.0008

I don't need to tell you how impossibly low that is. That's a red flag big enough to hang over the kremlin.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Wid Bastian said:


> Very interesting comments! We are new to Kboards, but we will be active from now on.
> 
> Regarding our techniques... In general it involves SEO work on an Amazon book site, genre selections, promotion of the book on book marketing platforms, blogs and social media, Facebook ads and other things we've learned over the past couple of years. Our promotional model is not static, we learn more every day. But for sure we do not in any way violate Amazon rules - just the opposite. We are always in conformance with Amazon guidelines. Also, we have a very good reputation with all of the platforms we use to promote our books. We have never had a situation where a book/author we promote has run into a problem due to the way we conduct our promotions. We do not buy eBook sales or downloads. Beyond that we are not going to comment further, nor should we have to. We worked very hard to develop our system and the exact way we promote is proprietary.
> 
> ...


First line - we will be active from now on. I haven't trawled through the entire thread, but I don't think you've been 'active' since posting this. In your first post, you promised to answer any questions; I might have missed those answers too.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

It looks like these people are still going, as I got an email from them this morning.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Caveat emptor.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Got another email from these shady operators:

Dear David;

My name is Cameron and I work for Genius Media, an eBook promotion company. I’m reaching out to you today because I noticed your book Reaper's Run online. Given the high quality of your creative work, you are an excellent candidate for our services.

Genius Media promotes eBooks using the Amazon Kindle Unlimited program. Our eBook marketing system has a consistent, verifiable track record of getting thousands of downloads and selling hundreds of eBooks per promotion. Please check out our website for more information. 

Success in the Indie book business is all about two factors – fantastic content and maximum access and exposure to readers on the Amazon platform. When quality writing is promoted effectively, great results naturally follow -

(redacted authors names)

We work with USA Today/NY Times Bestselling authors and with new Indie writers on the rise. You keep 100% of all book earnings. For well-branded authors, we boost sales and exponentially increase KENP income. For Indie authors building a brand, our download and sales spikes help take you to the next level. 

If you're not currently generating the eBook sales numbers cited above, please reach out. We provide references to every serious candidate (authors who use our service regularly). We do not use bots or click farms, our numbers are 100% real and we never violate Amazon’s Terms of Service. 

You are a talented author and you pour your heart and soul into your craft. We honor and respect that. Our company was founded by writers. We believe that you deserve an eBook promotion company that works as hard as you do. 

All the best,

Cameron


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

WasAnn said:


> Click spam button...gone.


With a caveat:
Forward to Amazon with header info intact and a link to this thread discussion and _then_ "click spam button...gone." 

You know, general mulling here, there was one service provider who engaged in botting/pay per action/rank manipulations that sported a big statement at the top of its web page that it was fully compliant with Amazon's TOS. Until Amazon Legal took notice and had the service and the website killed. That provider posted here too.

Then there was Free Book Service who also posted here and who swore up and down it was totally compliant and that Amazon had blessed its operations. But for some reason Amazon has sued FBS.

Because simply "saying" you're totally compliant makes it so. Right?


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## amdonehere (May 1, 2015)

They emailed me twice alread this year. For amusement I checked one of the books they touted as success in their last email (2 weeks ago) and it was rank stripped.

_edited; PM if you have questions -- Ann_


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## CelinaGrace (Nov 20, 2013)

Just wanted to thank you guys for giving me a heads-up about this company, as I got an email this morning from them. I knew WC would have the low down.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

I asked 2 questions in March. They have yet to answer.


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## jkmcneal (Oct 25, 2017)

Big thanks to all for the discussion. I received an email today and was typing a response when I thought to check here first. Glad I did.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

They're still cold contacting/spamming authors about this service. I really wish this were a legit service--goodness knows we need more solid advertisers--but it looks like the sort of thing that brings down the wrath of Amazon, so I would advise staying away.


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## Romancer (May 22, 2016)

Got an email from them today. Wanted to bump this thread to warn authors who may not know about this. Avoid avoid avoid.

But yeah, looks like "Cam" is still at it.


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## T.K.Lukas (Jul 21, 2015)

Unfortunately, I fell for the promises Wid Bastion made and used Genius Media Group for two different books. I was skeptical and asked Wid for references; I spoke with one author and emailed three others who all gave the company a glowing review. So, I felt confident he was legit. My first two promotions were OK and both my books achieved #1 status in several categories. I made back the money I'd paid him, plus a little more, but not much. However, the third promotion didn't go well at all. I signed a contract for Genius Media to promote a specific book. They made a mistake and promoted the wrong book, a book they'd previously promoted a few months prior, and as s a result, the promotion tanked. While he did admit the mistake was his, he wanted me to PAY AGAIN for him to promote the correct book. I told him that I should not be held financially responsible for his mistake and that he should either promote the book I'd contracted for him to promote, or refund my money. He agreed to refund my money (after sending me a scathing email with personal attacks). The money was supposed to be sent to my PayPal account this past Friday, then he said it would be sometime over the weekend. As of today, Monday, I still have not received the refund - and I'm not holding my breath. My advice to any author is to steer clear of Genius Media Group. Wid Bastion is not a man of his word.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

You can file a PayPal dispute (assuming you used "pay for goods and services" rather than "send money to friends and family"). That could get you your money back and also put a deserving black mark on their record.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Getting yet more reports about Genius Media. Amazed that Amazon hasn't shut them down yet.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Amazon has been much more proactive about shutting down the actual clickfarms than the authors using them. I've seen several cases in the last 9 months where Amazon has gone straight for the jugular and had the "promo site" taken down in less than 24 hours - completely gone from the internet.

Their clients untouched, of course, bar the odd rank-stripping here and there.


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## Dallas Gorham (Apr 3, 2018)

I have used Genius Media twice and plan to do so again.

The first marketing blitz (for which I paid $2,000) was designed to build the Dallas Gorham brand. During my first marketing project, 10/12/17, _Six Murders Too Many _got up to #8 bestselling free book on Amazon. I had 8,811 free downloads.

In the preceding month of September, my total paid sales were 28 ebooks (all seven titles, $50 royalty to me) and total KENP pages (all seven titles, $79 royalty to me) were 17,816. Let's consider that a normal month.

For October 2017, my total paid sales all books were 221 books ($544 royalties to me), 87,893 KENP ($385 royalties to me). Increased revenue of *$800*.

In November I did NO MARKETING AT ALL and had 15 book sales ($28 royalties to me) and 100,118 KENP ($452 royalties to me). Increased revenue about *$380*.

In December, again NO MARKETING AT ALL and I had 10 book sales ($25 royalties) and 54,796 KENP ($277 royalty). Increased revenue about *$200*

In January, again with no marketing, I sold 15 books ($34) and KENP pages continued to drop to 23,658 ($105 royalty to me).

Increased revenue from the first promotion *$1,380*. That is what Genius Media told me to expect-that the first promo would *not* show a profit, but that by the second or third promo, they would show a profit.

In February 1st to 19th, 2018, with no marketing, I sold 6 books and 9,191 KENP pages (royalty $42.) probably a normal no-marketing result.

The 2/20/18 Genius media second promo (for which I paid $1,500) got _Double Fake, Double Murder _up to #27 on Amazon's free book list. I had 4,206 free downloads. In the next 28 days, I sold 296 ebooks (*$673*) and my KENP pages FOR THE NEXT 28 DAYS (not a calendar month) were 80,661 (estimated royalty *$376*).

It is worth noting that Genius Media said they were not satisfied with this result and they agreed to my next promo at a discount. They also paid for a new cover for Quarterback Trap.

While the results been so-so, I am satisfied with the efforts and honesty of Genius Media and I am using them one more time in April.

Dallas


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

$2,000 is a lot of money, especially on a forum where people hem and haw about whether to pay 50 bucks for a pre-made cover. I'm generally on the side of people investing in their career, but this seems . . . dubious.

Also, you _must_ have been happy with the results to register for a new account solely to pop in here with your experience. How did you even know the thread had been refreshed? Did someone point you here and ask you to provide a testimonial, or is it pure coincidence?


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

Dallas, thanks for chiming in.

Can you explain how a promotion does better the second time around?

You wrote,



> Increased revenue from the first promotion $1,380. That is what Genius Media told me to expect�that the first promo would not show a profit, but that by the second or third promo, they would show a profit.


I have found whenever I promote a book the second time with a venue that the results are always less. Why would a second promotion do better? And why would it continue to do better with each promotion?

ETA: I re-read your post and I see two different books were promoted on the two occasions. I, at first, thought it was only one title, but I'm still curious how the second promotion does better than the first? What are they building off of? Are they creating some sort of mailing list for you? That's the only thing I can think of that would snowball like that.


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## joesmithx (Mar 21, 2018)

Dallas Gorham said:


> I have used Genius Media twice and plan to do so again.
> 
> The first marketing blitz (for which I paid $2,000) was designed to build the Dallas Gorham brand. During my first marketing project, 10/12/17, _Six Murders Too Many _got up to #8 bestselling free book on Amazon. I had 8,811 free downloads.
> 
> ...


TLR He paid $2K for Promo 1. LOST money. He went ahead and paid for Promo 2 anyway. Lost MORE money. BUTTTTTTTTT... the guy gave him a discount for Promo 3, so he'll give it another go!

Ooooh boy.


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## joesmithx (Mar 21, 2018)

MonkeyScribe said:


> $2,000 is a lot of money, especially on a forum where people hem and haw about whether to pay 50 bucks for a pre-made cover. I'm generally on the side of people investing in their career, but this seems . . . dubious.
> 
> Also, you _must_ have been happy with the results to register for a new account solely to pop in here with your experience. How did you even know the thread had been refreshed? Did someone point you here and ask you to provide a testimonial, or is it pure coincidence?


$2000 is a HELL of a lot of money, Monkey Person!


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Dallas Gorham said:


> I have used Genius Media twice and plan to do so again.
> 
> The first marketing blitz (for which I paid $2,000) was designed to build the Dallas Gorham brand. During my first marketing project, 10/12/17, _Six Murders Too Many _got up to #8 bestselling free book on Amazon. I had 8,811 free downloads.
> 
> ...


First time poster, praising a "service" with known and proven (read through the thread) against-TOS methods, who LOSES money and still praises the service.

Sure. *snort*


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Hypothetically, here's how a marketing service could work if the company were attempting to stay under the radar and cover their tracks. First, the new client's book would go free and be botted and/or incentivized up to a nice Top 10 rank. The company would purchase a couple of typical ads to cover their tracks, using ad sites that don't have an explicit statement about not ending a promotion early. Say, a site like Freebooksy. The book would be switched early that same day from free to paid. While it's free, the company would ensure 500 borrows or so, either botted or incentivized, also happened. That way, the book would be riding around #300 or so in the paid ranks when it returned (early) to paid.

Happy client ("OMG, Top 10 Free! OMG, #300 Paid!") who's ready to promote again.

Of course, GM would never engage in such hypothetical shenanigans.

First, 9000 downloads to hit #8 Free? That's a pretty low number. Must have been a VERY light sales day, especially since the book came off free early. Oh. Oops.










And it was not advertised through Robin Reads, ENT or BookSends. Just coincidence, I'm sure, that those sites all have pretty strict rules regarding that coming-off-free-early thing.

But coming off free early isn't against Amazon's TOS. And it's pretty easy to consistently get 9000 DLs in less than a day without using BookBub, Robin Reads, ENT or BookSends, or doing anything like botting or incentivizing. We've all managed it, right?

So, probably just another mistake on GM's part. Like all those mistakes at the beginning of this thread. Surely that wouldn't happen again, would it?

Oh.










It also appears Quarterback Trap was free on Feb 21. Just mentioning that since no one else did.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

This thread pops up on their Mention or Google Alert. They create another fake account, with more lies, and then forget about it.

I just hope authors with questions read the entire thread.

The truth is out there--but most people never read it.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

I seem to recall the earlier one poster praising GM to the skies did better than this one. He seemed to think only rank mattered, not how one got that rank. It happens every time a service is questioned, that a few one posters come along to praise them. Nobody believes them, yet still they do it; that should tell everyone what they are.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Welcome to Kboards. I do hope you did your research regarding this particular forum.   This forum is home to some of the most tenacious and successful indies in the business. And they WILL question every statistic, statement, and promise you make. And in some cases, may back up their assertions with graphs and flowcharts based on years of data they have accumulated.
> 
> You have been warned.


See now there goes _my_ Coffee!!


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

WriterSongwriter said:


> This discussion is done. You can put a fork in it.


Ah no. In this forum, we never stick a fork in it.

100 forks? Yes.

1000 forks? Even better.

1 fork? Never.

I must have missed this one. It wasn't until page 7 I noticed it all happened a year ago.

Seriously, people give away their KDP access? Who are they? There's a very nice bridge over Sydney Harbour I'd like to sell them quite cheaply. 

I think some of you have been very unkind to ducks in this thread.


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## Windvein (Sep 26, 2012)

I think those posting here to defend Genius Media are real author accounts, not sock puppets. I looked up Dallas Gorham's books. He has several. The other author Karver had a number of books. I didn't do a deep dive on them, but on the surface, they seem like real authors who used this service. I think they were promised big things and didn't know to look more closely at how its done. They were blinded by dollar signs. I ask questions of them in the hopes of getting more insight into GM's business model. Karver divulged a few key details that helped understand Genius Media's game. I hope we can be a welcoming to the authors that come here even if we have to give them some hard truths.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

The fact that real authors exist does not mean the posts were made by the real authors.

They might be, but they might not.

As they have already foolishly given away some or all of their usernames and passwords, it stands to reason they may be smurfed by GM personnel here on Boards.

Or, they may be put up to it by GM: "Hey, check out this thread--would you please defend us in a post? If you do, we'll give you a nice discount on your next promo..."

After all, how would those authors even know to look here? It's not like we mentioned particular authors and they got a Mention or Google alert. But GM gets them every time we talk about them. So, they're obviously either smurfing, or putting others up to it.

It's all part of the con games and scams practiced on new, not-yet-successful (or fading) authors desperate for sales, recognition and validation. Not that different from Author Solutions in general thrust--sell them a package of services with a lot of flimflammery promising magical success, "Just throw your money at us and we'll do it all."

Also they promise success via "secret processes" or sumach terminology. Any time anyone says "our processes are a secret," that's a big red flag. Proprietary about details, sure. But not hiding how they do it.

By contrast, for example, Ram's Book Rank Stacker, a genuine one-stop shop for book promotion, is very transparent about how they do things and what they do, and you can even customize their service in any way you like. In other words, they're useful for what they really are--a labor-saving service--not some panacea or magic route to the top.

But as PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

David VanDyke said:


> "Just throw your money at us and we'll do it all."


And even then, GM doesn't "do it all." There's a reason that last testimonial's reported stats ended on March 20. Because they ran another of their books free on several sites ~Mar 21 -- including sites such as ENT -- that typically guard against allowing companies that repeatedly violate their TOS's to continue to use their sites.

Now, if we go back to our hypothetical track-covering company, then a really savvy company might possibly encourage clients who are waffling about shelling out more money to try to replicate the company's results by running their own promos. Without access to any extra boosting tactics, the author can't replicate the company's results by simply using traditional ad sites and following those sites' terms of service. So they accede to allowing the company to continue to "market" their books.

We know from last year when GM asked us to watch the results of a couple of their promos in real time, that they had no compunction about violating several ad sites' terms of service. We made highly educated observations that numbers of downloads while free, ranks on the paid side on return, and numbers of cross-sales to other books in the authors' catalogs did not match typical customer behavior.

GM knows about this thread, and undoubtedly knows it's been resurrected. This needn't be a one-sided conversation. Or a conversation between one-time posters and KB members. We all desperately need ethical and effective promoters. When we find companies that are both, we shower them with work, money and word of mouth. Companies who are the first of those things should be willing to publicly demonstrate that they are.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks! I guess I was a sucker for hearsay.

Yet, he may not have said it first, but I bet he said it. Or thought it.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

David VanDyke said:


> Thanks! I guess I was a sucker for hearsay.
> 
> Yet, he may not have said it first, but I bet he said it. Or thought it.


Captain Kirk never said 'beam me up, Scotty' either, so don't worry about it.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Doglover said:


> Captain Kirk never said 'beam me up, Scotty' either, so don't worry about it.


He practically said it in the 3rd movie.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> He practically said it in the 3rd movie.


Practically is not the same! I've heard him say 'Scotty, beam us up' but never actually 'beam me up, Scotty'.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Mark Gardner said:


> Are you sure it was the third movie? I know in #4, he said, "scotty beam me up," and of course that was a trope to get the whale biologist onto the klingon BOP, since literally everyone else just walked up the cargo ramp.


Could be right.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Genius Media is at it again--apparently Wid Bastian is pushing a letters run with with a couple of unwitting dupes, or co-conspirators. 

I hope nobody falls for this. 

Here's an email I just got--the second, after the other person, Ms. Lucci, made me a similar offer which I politely declined, with a warning. She contacted me on FB; this one went to my business email. She mentioned a 4-figure fee for participation.

Email (redacted)
Subject A question from best-selling thriller authors Judith Lucci and Ed Dasso


David,
I’m Ed Dasso, an Amazon U.S. Bestselling indie author (Edwin Dasso), writing in the medical thriller/action genre. I’m not a “promoter” under the guise of an author, but, rather, just trying to find useful ways to sell my work. Judith Lucci, a WSJ and USA Today Best-selling author, and I would like to ask you a question:
Would you like to become a USA Today Bestselling author along with us? We’d like to offer you an opportunity, along with a few other select authors, to become a USA Today Bestselling author by the summer of this year and for a relatively modest amount of money. Let me explain…

I’ve worked with Genius Media, a promoter, on a number of my books and they delivered as promised, helping me to achieve Amazon Best-Seller status on a couple of my books. They have been involved in “USA Today Bestselling author programs” using Collaborative Boxed Sets with multiple authors and have now created their own USA Today Bestselling author program based on what they’ve learned. 
In a nutshell, 15 to 20 authors each contribute a full-length book, or even a 30,000-word novella, which becomes part of a Collaborative Boxed Set. You may have seen some of these Collabs (Boxed set example) over the past year; several were offered and successfully completed in 2018. Since I write in the medical thriller/action genre I wanted to do a Collab Boxed set in that genre. 
I did not pick your name at random; as I mentioned, this will be a select group in the above genre. I’ve looked at your book lineup and I’m confident that you would be a great asset to our Collab project. Your agreement for the project would be with Genius Media, not me, and I’m not receiving any fees from Genius. I’m just part of the lineup. 
If you'd like some more detail, I can send some answers to FAQs from other authors I’ve spoken with. If you’re interested in learning more, message me back or you can speak directly with the Genius Media folks.
            
Thx,
Ed Dasso


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## LLRobinett (Feb 2, 2016)

Unfortunately, I was one of the authors who fell for Genius Media/Wid Bastian's line of bullshit. A writer friend of mine was putting together a box set and asked me to contribute a book, and planned to use Genius Media as the promoter/publicist. It seemed, on the face, to be a decent deal. 13 of us would pool our money to hire a promoter to package the box set and promote/advertise it with the proceeds to benefit The American Wild Horse Campaign (a charity that several of us support). The box set didn't sell as well as we hoped, but it did decent. The kicker came this last week - Wid posted on a Facebook group that the box set made no money and there would be no payments to the authors OR the charity. This was in spite of promising the charity a minimum of $2k. 

The other authors and I have been communicating with other box sets that he ran like this - we know of at least 3 box sets that promised money to charities that Wid now claims didn't make enough money to cover his fees.

Word of warning: if Wid Bastian, Genius Media or Kairos Phoenix (the newest iteration of his scam) contact you - RUN.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Word.

Yet people keep falling for it.


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## VictoriaStrauss (Sep 8, 2013)

All the concerns expressed here about Genius Media and Wid Bastian...well, it's worse than you thought. From the Writer Beware blog: https://accrispin.blogspot.com/2019/12/beware-wid-bastian-aka-widtsoe-t.html

- Victoria


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