# Ads in Kindle books one step closer?



## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Amazon has not yet said it would do so but--apparently--the threat of ads in Kindle books is very real, indeed. I may be out of the loop, but I thought it was a distant--and not very likely possibility.

But this article just gave me a jolt. And I imagine it will do the same to most Kindle owners and authors. Check it out--and then have your say. My personal view? As a traditionalist--and a Kindle author--I find the idea profoundly unpalatable.

http://www.examiner.com/x-14868-Knoxville-Books-Examiner~y2009m8d9-Ad-content-on-Kindle


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## marianneg (Nov 4, 2008)

There's no new information here.  It's just more speculation, and rather late, at that.  What about this article freaked you out?


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## ak rain (Nov 15, 2008)

adds aimed at my likes and dislikes disturbs me. 
sylvia


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't think ads in books are imminent.  This may be more about Amazon securing its legal rights.  

Also, if they're seriously considering them, it might be just for magazines or other subscriptions, which would have ads in the print version as well.

After all, part of their advertising for the Kindle is the idea that the technology just kind of disappears, leaving you to lose yourself in a book.  That idea would be totally destroyed if there were in-text ads.  Putting an ad at the beginning or end of a book might be acceptable, just like there are ads before a movie starts.  But inserting ads into the middle of a book would be a reason for people not to buy a Kindle, I think.  Amazon may have some annoying policies and priorities, but I doubt they're going to do something that ultimately loses them money.

Now, if there were some option for us to improve a feature at the cost of having to look at an ad, they might have some success.  For instance, when a classic is scanned in,  it often has lots of errors due to the limitations of OCR software.  If there were a standard version available, AND a second, fully corrected version, paid for by ad revenue, they could give people a choice  --  the basic version, errors and all, or the corrected version with a few ads thrown in.  Or what if they offered an optional downloadable folder upgrade, except that every time you opened a different folder, you'd get an ad page first?  Those might be quite palatable options to many.

Cheer up, Sig, there are no ads threatened yet!  And with both readers AND authors opposed to the idea of in-text ads, I don't see that happening anytime soon.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

marianner said:


> There's no new information here. It's just more speculation, and rather late, at that. What about this article freaked you out?


To me, this was news, since--as I said--I am not keeping current with this issue. What freaked me out? The possibility that Amazon would cram Kindle books full of links, ads, pop-ups, just as if it were a book page on Amazon where they say, "You may also be interested in..."

Ads in books are not new, of course. Publishers--particularly in their paperbacks--have listed "Other Oxford History Books You May Also Enjoy." But this is at the election of the publisher and with the tacit approval of the author.

Amazon may well do something quite different, quite unilateral, quite destructive and quite beyond negotiation. This is my concern.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> I don't think ads in books are imminent. This may be more about Amazon securing its legal rights.
> 
> Also, if they're seriously considering them, it might be just for magazines or other subscriptions, which would have ads in the print version as well.
> 
> ...


All good thoughts. And I can only hope you are right that this is not in the offing. But authors will take a somewhat different view than readers. I can't believe that a best-seller such as David McCullough will tolerate a fusillade of ads from Amazon inserted willy-nilly into his work. Nor will his publishers. I will cheer up, as you wisely suggest. But it's taking an effort.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

Here are the other threads on this topic:

Hey, Amazon: Keep your ads out of our books!
Ads in Your Kindle Books? Thoughts?


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

pidgeon92 said:


> Here are the other threads on this topic:
> 
> Hey, Amazon: Keep your ads out of our books!
> Ads in Your Kindle Books? Thoughts?


Thanks. I forgot about those. And, on re-reading, I am glad to see that the majority of both readers and authors are against the idea of ads in books. If you want to merge this thread with others, that's OK with me. Thanks again.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> But authors will take a somewhat different view than readers. I can't believe that a best-seller such as David McCullough will tolerate a fusillade of ads


Not sure what you mean... seems to me authors and readers are agreed that in-text ads are undesirable, to say the least.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Not sure what you mean... seems to me authors and readers are agreed that in-text ads are undesirable, to say the least.


Well, I don't disagree. And maybe my point is too parochial. Let me put it this way: With established writers, ads would seem like intellectual rape--an infringement on sacred copyright.

But for many readers, without the emotional investment in the text, it might well be annoying or worse. But it might not be experienced as such personal violence.

I am not in any sense minimizing the reader here. I am just saying that the impact on the author would be a bit different than on the reader. Some readers did say that it might depend on where the ads were, and if the book were free, etc.

There was a recent car crash in which a man and woman lost--I think-- all of their children. We can sympathize. But we can't truly feel what they do. They gave birth to those lives. Writers--though it is merely cerebral--give birth, as well.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Ahhh... now I understand... you're saying it's a matter of degree. Yes, no doubt an author would perceive an ad as much more intrusive, or as an insulting slap. To a reader it would be an annoyance, maybe even a significant one, but not a personal attack.

Still, they'd be united in their complaints to Amazon if it ever happens!

(I do understand about the emotional investment in text... many years ago, I submitted a 20-line poem for publication, and the editor wanted to change one word. There was nothing wrong with it grammatically, nor with the meaning, he just_ liked_ another one better! I argued the point for weeks... eventually I won. )


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Ahhh... now I understand... you're saying it's a matter of degree. Yes, no doubt an author would perceive an ad as much more intrusive, or as an insulting slap. To a reader it would be an annoyance, maybe even a significant one, but not a personal attack.
> 
> Still, they'd be united in their complaints to Amazon if it ever happens!
> 
> (I do understand about the emotional investment in text... many years ago, I submitted a 20-line poem for publication, and the editor wanted to change one word. There was nothing wrong with it grammatically, nor with the meaning, he just_ liked_ another one better! I argued the point for weeks... eventually I won. )


Yes. We agree on all points. And I am glad you won!

I probably obsess overmuch about this, as you said. But Amazon does some weird things, such as dropping the Kindle discounts without a word of explanation to readers or authors. Oh, a whole slew of PR gaffes.

I'm hitting the hay now. And I'll try the mantra, "Susan says to cheer up." It certainly can't hurt!


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> I'm hitting the hay now. And I'll try the mantra, "Susan says to cheer up."


I just hope you don't talk in your sleep. That could sound.... odd.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> I just hope you don't talk in your sleep. That could sound.... odd.


I didn't. But I feel much better today, guru friend.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> I didn't. But I feel much better today, guru friend.


My goodness, the strange monikers I've been picking up on Kindleboards... 

Glad you feel better.



Spoiler



Now you can get back to work and update your website....


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> My goodness, the strange monikers I've been picking up on Kindleboards...
> 
> Glad you feel better.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that it needs an update? Or--?


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## cheerio (May 16, 2009)

I kinda knew that eventually ads would show up, everyone is out to make money electronically


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> Are you saying that it needs an update? Or--?


It looked like the last posts were from April or thereabouts. And your "about" page has been under construction since at least then, also. 

(I had looked at the site when I checked out the books on it a few months ago, and looked through again a day or two ago when making my next Amazon purchase list. But if you're too busy to update it, it must mean you're busily working on a new book... right?? )


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> It looked like the last posts were from April or thereabouts. And your "about" page has been under construction since at least then, also.
> 
> (I had looked at the site when I checked out the books on it a few months ago, and looked through again a day or two ago when making my next Amazon purchase list. But if you're too busy to update it, it must mean you're busily working on a new book... right?? )


Your conclusion is correct. I have been furiously busy and had to set aside the secondary tasks. The most recent book ("From War to War") just devoured the hours: Three years of research and writing, 153,000 words, 80 pages of endnotes--a monster. But such a satisfying experience!

I've stopped the blog for the moment because Amazon banished them all from the book pages--foolishly in my opinion.

I've dropped out of Twitter which drained too much time. So that stops the Twitter Archive. And I left the "About Sig" bio unfinished because I'd rather have people know me from the books, themselves.

But one of these days, I'll polish it off. Not, however, till I wrap up the next Bert Feld Mystery, which fans keep asking me to complete. It's "Death Has a Point," and takes place in the little-known nation of Fristalia. I won't go on. But you get the idea. Thanks for the "follow"!


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> The most recent book ("From War to War") just devoured the hours: Three years of research and writing, 153,000 words, 80 pages of endnotes--a monster. But such a satisfying experience!


I just read the first part of it that's posted. It's now on my Kindle list, but... is this book by any chance also available as a paper book?


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> I just read the first part of it that's posted. It's now on my Kindle list, but... is this book by any chance also available as a paper book?


Thanks for sampling it. But--at this point--I have no plans at all to do anything but e-books in Kindle and Mobipocket Editions. As an ex-publisher, I am put off by the current POD formats. But--especially when it comes to Bookdom--one never says never!


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> But--at this point--I have no plans at all to do anything but e-books in Kindle and Mobipocket Editions.


Too bad.  I'll get it for myself on Kindle, but I would have bought a paper copy for my father. We were just talking about a similar topic a few days ago, prompted by the discovery of a piece of family history: a letter that his father wrote home from WWI saying that the next morning he would be going "over the hill". We ended up talking for hours about the developments in the country (the UK) after his father returned home from war.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Too bad.  I'll get it for myself on Kindle, but I would have bought a paper copy for my father. We were just talking about a similar topic a few days ago, prompted by the discovery of a piece of family history: a letter that his father wrote home from WWI saying that the next morning he would be going "over the hill". We ended up talking for hours about the developments in the country (the UK) after his father returned home from war.


Exciting to find a link to the distant past. As a kid I treasured the actual helmet my dad's brother Charlie wore in WWI in France, where he was an MP--plus the postcards he sent back. Ah, history.

You might consider the Mobipocket Edition for your dad. Perhaps not up to the Kindle, but still a nice reading experience, I have found.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> You might consider the Mobipocket Edition for your dad. Perhaps not up to the Kindle, but still a nice reading experience, I have found.


I have to admit I knew nothing about Mobipocket other than that people buy books from them for Kindle. I just looked it up and see that their format can be read on computers as well. I dunno... my father is 74 and (finally!) uses a computer for email but nothing else, and I don't really see him curling up to read a book on a computer.

He did seem to like my Kindle when I demo'ed it, but claimed he doesn't read enough anymore (eye problems) to make it worth having one of his own. Of course, 75th birthdays should be celebrated with something special, so maybe...

And who knows, maybe if enough people want to give your books as gifts you'll reconsider!


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## Kind (Jan 28, 2009)

Allowing ads equals to discount on books ... maybe then there will be some takers??


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Kind said:


> Allowing ads equals to discount on books ... maybe then there will be some takers??


_Maybe_. But that doesn't do anything to endear the idea to authors.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> I have to admit I knew nothing about Mobipocket other than that people buy books from them for Kindle. I just looked it up and see that their format can be read on computers as well. I dunno... my father is 74 and (finally!) uses a computer for email but nothing else, and I don't really see him curling up to read a book on a computer.
> 
> He did seem to like my Kindle when I demo'ed it, but claimed he doesn't read enough anymore (eye problems) to make it worth having one of his own. Of course, 75th birthdays should be celebrated with something special, so maybe...
> 
> And who knows, maybe if enough people want to give your books as gifts you'll reconsider!


Well, I want to avoid commercials here. But you may want to sample the Mobipocket reader yourself, just to get familiar with it. It's free, and quite easy to download. And the reading experience is excellent, I have found.

But it is certainly true that some people do not want to read on their computer screens--whatever the book. So one can also send the MP reader to several PDAs. In any event, there are excellent instructions at the Mobipocket site. As you may know, MP is now owned by Amazon. And there are a slew of excellent--free--books for MP, as well.

Of course, if your dad has eye problems--as my father did--he might like recorded books better. My Dad got the books through some organization which mailed them to him without cost. After he heard them, he just returned them. He really liked the service. I haven't checked, but I am sure that there are even more recorded books on the market, these days. Of course, there's the text-to-speech feature of the Kindle. But you know more about this than I do, I am sure.

I'm not likely to issue paper versions. But technology is moving so fast these days, and we are at the very beginning of a book publishing revolution. So you never know...


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> Well, I want to avoid commercials here. But you may want to sample the Mobipocket reader yourself, just to get familiar with it. It's free, and quite easy to download. And the reading experience is excellent, I have found.


I read enough on the computer for work and school that I'm not immediately thrilled by the idea, but on your recommendation I'll sample it.



sigrosenblum said:


> So one can also send the MP reader to several PDAs.


PDA's in _this _household?!? Ummmm..... not any time soon. Tried one a couple of years ago, found it inconvenient and a hassle to use. It didn't save me any time (quite the opposite), and it was yet another thing to remember to recharge. Nice little toy, well-designed and all, but just not practical or efficient for me.



sigrosenblum said:


> Of course, if your dad has eye problems--as my father did--he might like recorded books better.


Could be... right now he's hoping that cataract surgery sometime later this year will take care of the problem.



sigrosenblum said:


> Of course, there's the text-to-speech feature of the Kindle. But you know more about this than I do, I am sure.


Sig, you don't have a Kindle? Or a K1?


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> I read enough on the computer for work and school that I'm not immediately thrilled by the idea, but on your recommendation I'll sample it.
> PDA's in _this _household?!? Ummmm..... not any time soon. Tried one a couple of years ago, found it inconvenient and a hassle to use. It didn't save me any time (quite the opposite), and it was yet another thing to remember to recharge. Nice little toy, well-designed and all, but just not practical or efficient for me.
> Could be... right now he's hoping that cataract surgery sometime later this year will take care of the problem.
> Sig, you don't have a Kindle? Or a K1?


Yes, give Mobi a test drive. It's easy and free. So nothing lost. You can ignore it if it's not for you.

Cataract surgery today is a minor miracle and should certainly help.

No, I don't have a Kindle. Most of what I read will never be Kindled. And I am heavily dependent on source notes which makes for another difficulty. I do feel left out, no question.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> No, I don't have a Kindle. Most of what I read will never be Kindled. And I am heavily dependent on source notes which makes for another difficulty. I do feel left out, no question.


Yes, there are certainly limitations to its use, though in these early stages of e-books it's amazing how much _is _available.

Do you have access to a Kindle from time to time to at least see how your own books look on it?


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Yes, there are certainly limitations to its use, though in these early stages of e-books it's amazing how much _is _available.
> 
> Do you have access to a Kindle from time to time to at least see how your own books look on it?


True. Kindle is wonderful. And for most folks, the choices are wide and deep. But my needs are so highly specialized.

As for my own books, I see them in the Mobipocket format on my reader. The technology is much the same for both Mobi and Kindle.

That's why Joshua Tallent--who does my books--formats for both. That lets me check all the essentials--such as links, in-text and out--before publication, and any goofs afterward.

Right now, I am reading the entire MS (Mussolini has just fallen upon helpless Ethiopia).


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> Right now, I am reading the entire MS (Mussolini has just fallen upon helpless Ethiopia).


I'll be reading it soon. I'm in the middle of three other books but after reading the first part of this one I want to keep going.

I was just browsing Amazon, updating my list, so that I can then find the ones I want on KB and click through from here. On Amazon it lists your four books but each one is listed twice. As far as I can tell the only difference is the price, but even that difference is minimal ($3.16 vs. $ 3.95). I've seen that quite a bit with other books, but this is the first time I've noticed it with an author whom I could ask about it. Is there in fact a difference (one version missing a table of contents or something, as people have noted with other works)? Or are they the same book and one is just Amazon's sale price?

(Please don't misunderstand -- I am in no way quibbling about pricing! A good read is worth much more than that. I'm just curious.)


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> I'll be reading it soon. I'm in the middle of three other books but after reading the first part of this one I want to keep going.
> 
> I was just browsing Amazon, updating my list, so that I can then find the ones I want on KB and click through from here. On Amazon it lists your four books but each one is listed twice. As far as I can tell the only difference is the price, but even that difference is minimal ($3.16 vs. $ 3.95). I've seen that quite a bit with other books, but this is the first time I've noticed it with an author whom I could ask about it. Is there in fact a difference (one version missing a table of contents or something, as people have noted with other works)? Or are they the same book and one is just Amazon's sale price?
> 
> (Please don't misunderstand -- I am in no way quibbling about pricing! A good read is worth much more than that. I'm just curious.)


This is just one facet of Amazon's all too familiar perversity. And one of the reasons that--in spite of your calming influence--I am concerned about future advertising in Kindle books.

Amazon dropped the discounts without announcing or explaining. All of my books were $3.95. But Amazon, in order to present itself as an appealing discounter, knocked the price down to $3.16.

As an ex ad agency president, consultant, etc., I have no quibble or quarrel with that. Good strategy. On Mobipocket, they gave no such discount.

But when they killed the discount, they still continued to list the book with its original discounted price and with the new full price. In all cases, the editions are exactly the same.

"Caesar" was a special case. I re-priced it--for a limited time--at $1.10 so that it would sell for 88 cents. But, as with the others, they dropped the discount and it is now $1.10.

I asked Amazon about all this. I pointed out that it was confusing to readers and made the obvious suggestions, which I won't detail here. So far, I have had the usual inexplicable silence from the powers that be.

I do not know if Amazon will sell a book and charge the old discount price. And there is a lot more I don't know because Amazon does not communicate with either readers or authors about so many things.

I am a devout Amazon booster. But I growl and grind my teeth over some of their un-PR unprofessionalism. For all I know, they may revert to the discounted price tomorrow morning!

But to the basic question: The editions are exactly the same in every respect.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> I do not know if Amazon will sell a book and charge the old discount price.
> 
> For all I know, they may revert to the discounted price tomorrow morning!


In fact, they did exactly that -- charged me $ 3.16, the discounted price.

Thanks for taking the time to explain! Off to read now...


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> In fact, they did exactly that -- charged me $ 3.16, the discounted price.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to explain! Off to read now...


It seems that my discounted listing was a fluke. I'm glad that you were the beneficiary!


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> It seems that my discounted listing was a fluke.


The other books are also still available at the discount rate. It would seem that transparency is not one of Amazon's strong points.



sigrosenblum said:


> I'm glad that you were the beneficiary!


Well so am I.... unless... well, I'm assuming that author royalties remain the same even when Amazon discounts a book. If that's not the case, I owe you a cup of coffee next time you're in the DC area.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> The other books are also still available at the discount rate. It would seem that transparency is not one of Amazon's strong points.
> Well so am I.... unless... well, I'm assuming that author royalties remain the same even when Amazon discounts a book. If that's not the case, I owe you a cup of coffee next time you're in the DC area.


I haven't the foggiest notion of what Amazon is doing with royalties, since I don't know what they are doing with anything else. Still, the coffee Klatsch sounds good!

I do know that other authors say that their old discounted listings have gone. I like mysteries. But there's no penetrating this one. Today, I haven't even been able to find the discounted titles.

By the way, I should also mention that the "notify" function on KB misses me a lot.This was one of those times. So if I don't answer promptly, it may be because I haven't been told that there is a post. Harvey knows and is working on it.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Kind said:


> Allowing ads equals to discount on books ... maybe then there will be some takers??


Yes, I am sure there will be. Probably before and after the books themselves--as in those annoying DVD previews. Amazon will probably run into copyright problems if they try to pepper the book proper with pop-ups. All of us are quite familiar with the current practice of paying extra to keep ads off of our blogs. Amazon--and others--may well adopt that tactic. But who can tell? In any event, the emerging outlines of a future rich in e-books is exciting for all!


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> Today, I haven't even been able to find the discounted titles.


That's odd, they still showed up when I looked just now...
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=sig+rosenblum&x=0&y=0



sigrosenblum said:


> By the way, I should also mention that the "notify" function on KB misses me a lot.This was one of those times. So if I don't answer promptly, it may be because I haven't been told that there is a post.


Not to worry -- KB is a pretty relaxed kind of place, and I don't think anyone here worries if they don't get an answer to a post quickly!

I think we've pretty much hijacked this thread, though... or does it count as hijacking if it's your own thread?


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> That's odd, they still showed up when I looked just now...
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=sig+rosenblum&x=0&y=0
> Not to worry -- KB is a pretty relaxed kind of place, and I don't think anyone here worries if they don't get an answer to a post quickly!
> 
> I think we've pretty much hijacked this thread, though... or does it count as hijacking if it's your own thread?


I see. They show up when you search on my name. But not if you search on the titles. In any event, it is screwy. But I've given up on querying Amazon. For all I know, they might wipe everything out in one of their famous misunderstandings. So, let sleeping dogs...

Bright side: Some folks will still get discounted books. As for hijacking: I guess that the other threads on the subject have garnered all the reactions that are out there. And--as I've been told--I'm a late-comer to the subject.

Still no "notifys." Just checked on a hunch. Could be my speedy new Firefox, perhaps, that's the problem.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> Still no "notifys." Just checked on a hunch. Could be my speedy new Firefox, perhaps, that's the problem.


Nope! It's not just you. I just saw this:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,12612.msg197263/topicseen.html#new


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Nope! It's not just you. I just saw this:
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,12612.msg197263/topicseen.html#new


Thanks so much, Susan. I've told Ed in a post and PM. I take it that you are not having this problem? Harvey is on the case.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> Thanks so much, Susan. I've told Ed in a post and PM. I take it that you are not having this problem? Harvey is on the case.


Actually, there are only a couple of threads that it notifies me about, and those only because I used them to test out the notification feature. And I think no posts have been made to either of those threads in the past week or so, so I wouldn't know.

I always use the "show new replies" feature whenever I sign on, and go from there.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Actually, there are only a couple of threads that it notifies me about, and those only because I used them to test out the notification feature. And I think no posts have been made to either of those threads in the past week or so, so I wouldn't know.
> 
> I always use the "show new replies" feature whenever I sign on, and go from there.


Thanks. I will try that and the other option, as well. I feel as if I'm missing the morning paper!


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