# Just what does the word "community" entail.



## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Merriam-Webster defines _community_ thusly:

1 : a unified body of individuals: such as
a : the people with common interests living in a particular area; broadly : the area itself

the problems of a large community

b : a group of people with a common characteristic or interest living together within a larger society

a community of retired persons

a monastic community

c : a body of persons of common and especially professional interests scattered through a larger society

the academic community

the scientific community

d : a body of persons or nations having a common history or common social, economic, and political interests

the international community

e : a group linked by a common policy
f : an interacting population of various kinds of individuals (such as species) in a common location
g : state, commonwealth
2 a : a social state or condition

The school encourages a sense of community in its students.

b : joint ownership or participation

community of goods

c : common character : likeness

community of interests

d : social activity : fellowship
3 : society at large

the interests of the community
_____________________________________
Our community, this group of Indie authors is under attack, and has been for some time. By community, I don't mean the KBoards community. This is just one of the places we, as Indie Publishers, congregate.

There are unscrupulous people out there who think nothing of smiling to your face, while their hand is in your pocket. We are all victims to some degree or another. Maybe you're in Select and having money literally stolen from you every month. Maybe you're not and are suffering lower sales due to the high volume of unscrupulous people who turn out trash on a daily basis, giving all Indie Publishers a bad name.

There are only two sides to this. You can't hide from it. You're either against this kind of behavior or you're for it. Lately, it seems that KBoards has tried to take a neutral position. This does nothing but embolden those who will try every trick in the book to separate an honest person from their money. I can understand that. KBoards has no dog in the fight and doesn't want to be sued. Lawsuits are expensive. I know this first hand, having been sued for doing nothing more than supporting a fellow Indie Publisher.

But, as I said, there are only two sides. For and against. Neutral isn't one of them. I'm sure this post will be modded to hell and back, or just flat out deleted. I may even be banned for making it.

So be it.

If the fear of an expensive lawsuit, for supporting a cause that is just and right, is the determining factor, I cannot in good conscience, feed money into this neutrality. I've pumped thousands of dollars into helping fellow Indie Publishers and spent thousands of hours helping others. But, I will not stand for neutrality with my work. To that end, I have removed book links from my signature line. Maybe they don't earn KBoards a penny, maybe they do. I don't know.

But, I will no longer support a sub-community that does not support the Indie Publishing community's welfare out of fear.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

You're one of the good eggs, Wayne. I've never doubted that.  I too don't care to take a neutral stance against the dirtbags of this industry.  

I've said it before: if you (general you) outsell me by being a better story teller or better white hat marketer then more power to you. I will cheer you on as you kick my butt.  But, if you're gaming the system, I'll likewise happily shine a flashlight into those dark corners where you're hiding so your shenanigans don't go unseen.

I understand the thought behind removing your signature links and very much respect it.  In my case I choose to keep them, only because it's less a show of support for a neutral community to me and more thumbing my nose at those who've used them in the past to one-star and intimidate others.  So ... pretty much same principle, just different applications.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Granted, I'm not on the forum much these days, but I thought that kboards did support indy authors. The last I checked, there were a couple of fund raisers helping indy authors fight plagiarism and rip-off artists. Did something happen that I wasn't aware of?


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

beccaprice said:


> Granted, I'm not on the forum much these days, but I thought that kboards did support indy authors. The last I checked, there were a couple of fund raisers helping indy authors fight plagiarism and rip-off artists. Did something happen that I wasn't aware of?


KBoards supports indies by encouraging discussion of issues that impact them.

But there's disagreement among members regarding the extent to which such discussion should be allowed to evolve (or devolve, depending on your perspective).


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Wayne, you've been my most generous supporter and one of the most vocal. I won't say much more, because I don't want to derail this thread, but I assume I know what has prompted your post and I, too, am deeply disheartened. 

Thank you for your continued staunch support of me and the community as a whole. We are all far better off for it.


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

In evolutionary terms, one of the reasons communities work - and led to modern civilization - is that the people in those communities shared common goals and worked together toward unified purposes. 

One of the key common goals was surviving against hostile tribes and predators. At first, a campfire and spears were used. Then stockaded villages. Then walled cities. 

Our means of protecting ourselves, especially in the indie community, is no longer spears. It's open communication and a willingness to identify and act against predators.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

One of the most important functions of KBoards has always been providing information--advice on covers, blurbs, marketing, etc--and that has also included providing information on services to avoid. It's extremely disheartening that despite the authors who have been named in recent situations themselves coming out and publicly posting about it on social media, KBoards has instituted a gag rule where these things are not allowed to be discussed. 

To say I'm disappointed in the moderation as of late is an extreme understatement.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.  

And even your lawyer will agree truth is an absolute defense.  

The good guys can't win if we don't know who the bad guys are or what they are up to.  

I will freely admit I have no idea what is going on most of the time with regard to the various controversies in independent publishing.  But I do agree it affects all of us whether we like it or not.  If it's something we need to know, then I think we should find some way to communicate it.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

The word community means less and less the bigger it gets and fragments into different communities. Different communities have different priorities and will clash.

I actually think the KB has done an admirable job of keeping the discussion of news and opinions open without the board descending into a flamefest. You don't need to be here very long to be able to read between the lines and find your own micro-community where name-dropping and highly speculative accusations are allowed.

As for people reaching for our hip pockets and miking us, this has always been a problem in the wider selfpublishing community. Some of it is even allowed here. I mean, when someone asks for cover design, how many cover designers jump on pimping their own stuff? One step further, people will visit websites from signatures and email you to sell services. This sort of stuff is rife in selfpublishing and has always been.

Truly proven bad behaviour, reported first hand is always allowed. The mega thread on box set scams is epic.

But second hand news and speculation about identifiable people is not. This is not about suing. To start a rumour is easy. Find someone you don't like and who has made enemies in the community, then start speculating about why their book bombed, why their reviews were stripped or why their account was suspended. The rumour may later be proven not to be true. But you can't put a rumour back in the box. You just can't. And a fair community doesn't want to be a place where these rumours get started.

And while I don't always (actually about half the time) agree with moderation, I can see, absolutely, why it is necessary to keep a group as big as this on the rails. Because I've also seen the disgusting results of a forum without strong moderation. And that is an even less fair community than we have here.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Dpock said:


> Well? It might useful to have it out in the open. Otherwise, we're left here guessing.


Considering I've seen you comment on many of posts that I believe this is talking about, I'm not sure what you need to have spelled out?? If you want a more specific thread, look at who the user you are quoting is.

Why would you ask for something that has already been moderated and said not to be repeated again? Isn't that the whole point of Wayne's post? To protest that silencing? Bringing up expressly forbidden topics will get this closed, if it doesn't on its own.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

HopelessFanatic said:


> Considering I've seen you comment on many of these posts that are being referenced, I'm not sure what you need to have spelled out?? If you want a more specific thread, look at who the user you are quoting is.
> 
> Why would you ask for something that has already been moderated and said not to be repeated again? Isn't that the whole point of Wayne's post? To protest that silencing? Bringing up expressly forbidden topics will get this closed, if it doesn't on its own.


You said it better than I did.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Truly proven bad behaviour, reported first hand is always allowed.


Not any more it isn't.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

ChristinaGarner said:


> Not any more it isn't.


Not sure where you're seeing that. Granted, I've not spent as much time here recently, but I did read the entire UF author and TM controversy thread, where the fact that if it happens *to you* you can report it, but if it happens to a third person, that person should report it was explicitly stated. This is how I've always understood it.

I mean, if we all want to drag out the speculative details, we know what Facebook groups to visit. That's not the place of this forum.

ETA. I think what they've implemented stronger recently is that if there are any third parties in the incident you're reporting, they need to give consent, if the incident or discussion you're referring to was inside a private group. This, to me, is also 100% fair enough.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Not sure where you're seeing that. Granted, I've not spent as much time here recently, but I did read the entire UF author and TM controversy thread, where the fact that if it happens *to you* you can report it, but if it happens to a third person, that person should report it was explicitly stated. This is how I've always understood it.
> 
> I mean, if we all want to drag out the speculative details, we know what Facebook groups to visit. That's not the place of this forum.


Neither of those threads is what I'm referencing. As of yesterday, we are no longer allowed to post about something that is very much firsthand for me and many others.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Thank you for speaking out, Wayne. For those who are new, Wayne is one of the really good guys. Check out the signature on his post.

We don't want flamewars, but when you can't post things that have been publicly shared, then something is lost. Lots of people don't hang out in the private groups, so they miss most of the talk that goes around. I know, that's me. I have one or two places I can go and find out what's going on, but it wasn't always that way. It took a while for people to trust me.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

While I do agree with Patty that it's a slippery slope to allow speculation and rumor and all of that, I think there is a big difference between secondhand information or hearsay and words from the person and people directly involved. 

I'm saddened that this community no longer is willing to give a voice to those being attacked by others with bigger voices. Isn't that what community is? Coming together in support, to lift up the small so they don't get trampled by the mighty?

So many individuals do not have the volume to match even a small percentage of others. So what happens when one of the biggest microphones in the indie community (since it's public) no longer allows individuals to speak? 

They get drowned out by the bigger voices. 

Moderation is majorly difficult, and thankless. And the Kboards owners (and the mods) have the duty to protect themselves. But I echo Wayne in being saddened and disappointed in certain decisions. 

Please turn the microphone back on. Please. 

~EDIT: Posted before seeing Patty's other comments.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

ChristinaGarner said:


> Neither of those threads is what I'm referencing. As of yesterday, we are no longer allowed to post about something that is very much firsthand for me and many others.


Okay. That clears it up. Thanks.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> Not sure where you're seeing that. Granted, I've not spent as much time here recently, but I did read the entire UF author and TM controversy thread, where the fact that if it happens *to you* you can report it, but if it happens to a third person, that person should report it was explicitly stated. This is how I've always understood it.
> 
> I mean, if we all want to drag out the speculative details, we know what Facebook groups to visit. That's not the place of this forum.
> 
> ETA. I think what they've implemented stronger recently is that if there are any third parties in the incident you're reporting, they need to give consent, if the incident or discussion you're referring to was inside a private group. This, to me, is also 100% fair enough.


This isn't a matter of rumor or innuendo. Posts citing comments the authors themselves have made in public were deleted.


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## cdk (Feb 28, 2015)

I understand the need to be cautious because nobody wants to be sued, but at some point this board becomes a hollow version of itself if it's too afraid to let posters express their opinion or defend themselves out of fear of the possible consequences.  I admit I was completely floored when I read an edited post yesterday that had been whittled down to nothing, preventing the poster from defending herself in another thread.  The op reminds me of one of my favorite sayings, "Stand for what's right, even if you stand alone."


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## Moe D (Dec 6, 2017)

HopelessFanatic said:


> Considering I've seen you comment on many of posts that I believe this is talking about, I'm not sure what you need to have spelled out?? If you want a more specific thread, look at who the user you are quoting is.
> 
> Why would you ask for something that has already been moderated and said not to be repeated again? Isn't that the whole point of Wayne's post? To protest that silencing? Bringing up expressly forbidden topics will get this closed, if it doesn't on its own.


Thank you for this reply! It was spot on.

And Wayne, thank you for your post. I agree with all of it.


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## K&#039;Sennia Visitor (Jan 14, 2014)

BlossomBubblesButtercup said:


> I found the "community" aspect to be lacking on kboards which I why no longer participate in discussions. Here, and in life, people tend to not want to be pulled into issues that don't affect them, so they say they are neutral when what they really mean is they don't care and they want you to shut up about it.
> 
> This "community" claims to be a lot of things but in actuality, it's just a place to search through threads, gather some tidbits and keep it moving. If you (by you, I mean me) look for support, you (I) will get arguments and insults in return.
> 
> ...


 Your post made me feel sad when you said you're still looking for support and community. I don't want to be annoying and spammy with this, and maybe my group isn't exactly what you're looking for, either, but I did create a place where peeps are free to express themselves, share proof, screencaps, share experiences, feelings, etc, and where I sincerely hope peeps can feel supported and get help when they need it. So here's the url again - http://indieauthorhaven.freeforums.net/ .


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## Captain Cranky (Jun 29, 2016)

​*This post has been removed by the author in response to Verticalscope's over-reaching TOS*


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## passerby (Oct 18, 2015)

Could be wrong here, but didn't Becca say that she'd rather err on the side of caution when she pruned and locked the thread in question because she wanted to discuss it with Ann and Betsy (who are currently unavailable) before making a final decision? Perhaps, after all the mods discuss the situation, there is a chance the deleted parts of the post in question may be restored and the thread unlocked. After all, that's what happened with the "Box Set Scams on Passive Voice" thread, I think?


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## OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow (Jun 10, 2018)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> _____________________________________
> Our community, this group of Indie authors is under attack, and has been for some time. By community, I don't mean the KBoards community. This is just one of the places we, as Indie Publishers, congregate.


I'd say this is overblown given the fact that we are talking about a group that numbers at most into the hundreds and the Indie Community is in the millions. Yes I know a few lawsuits are ongoing, but I hardly think that justifies a crisis of conscious. If we lose our marbles over lawsuits what are we going to do when an actual crisis comes up? Let keep this in its proper place. The sky is not falling down.



Wayne Stinnett said:


> There are unscrupulous people out there who think nothing of smiling to your face, while their hand is in your pocket. We are all victims to some degree or another. Maybe you're in Select and having money literally stolen from you every month. Maybe you're not and are suffering lower sales due to the high volume of unscrupulous people who turn out trash on a daily basis, giving all Indie Publishers a bad name.


Bad actors abound in life. No, that's not saying we shouldn't fight against evil everyday but lets not make this a crusade. There has never been a shortage of people willing to steal, lie, and cheat to get more money and that's all without even talking about the book business. I'm not for them doing it but I am for people understanding that this kind of moral choice is not new, and cannot be won. It can be fought as its been fought through history but it is not new, and not something out of the norm for human existence.

I do think calling others books trash is harsh and overdone. You might only be talking about the stuffers and scammers but given how often the outside world calls Indie Authors books trash I'd appreciate a more diplomatic tone. We all struggle with quality and no one here likes to be reminded of the stigma we still face.



Wayne Stinnett said:


> There are only two sides to this. You can't hide from it. You're either against this kind of behavior or you're for it. Lately, it seems that KBoards has tried to take a neutral position. This does nothing but embolden those who will try every trick in the book to separate an honest person from their money. I can understand that. KBoards has no dog in the fight and doesn't want to be sued. Lawsuits are expensive. I know this first hand, having been sued for doing nothing more than supporting a fellow Indie Publisher.
> 
> But, as I said, there are only two sides. For and against. Neutral isn't one of them. I'm sure this post will be modded to hell and back, or just flat out deleted. I may even be banned for making it.
> 
> So be it.


The two sides argument. One of my personal favorites. You design a paradigm with one obvious good and one obvious bad. Then you draw a moral line between them and tell people to pick a side. Anyone who isn't doing what you want obviously has to be on the evil side. It's a popular tactic with all kinds of people, politicians, dictators, genocidal mad men, you name it. Hey, it works. I can site 5 speeches off the top of my head that do the same thing both for causes I'd name the greatest good and those seeking only evil.

The problem is that you strip all nuance from the argument. If my people are fighting a war in a foreign country and I protest for peace am I not also fighting the conflict? Don't we both want the war to end? Many people hid Jewish people from the Nazi's but didn't take up a gun and kill. In the Underground Railroad many people smuggled slaves out of occupied territory but didn't feel the need to take up arms. I know of people who give money to starving countries but don't want to go there and volunteer. In conflict there is always different ways that people seek to promote their side.

A war is never only fought by soldiers. People give money. They work longer hours to provide for the army. They sew blankets. They put on concerts. They go without to support something they believe in. A community goes to war, a single man can only fight.

Do you believe the people who gave money to help these lawsuits happen just didn't have a need for it? No, they gave it to help. They gave it because they cared. All through that thread you see people offering to put the author on mailing lists, encouragement, money, any help they can. Including the Mods. I guess that isn't enough to be on your side. That doesn't meet your qualifications for being part of a community.

The give us a space to be ourselves while keeping the discussion relatively free of insults, hyena packs, and the machinations of business sharks. They allow us this space to interact in private, and sometimes, intensely personal ways. To ask for help with a cover or to cry about the fact that we're not as good as we want to be. To seek inspiration in posts by people who want nothing more than to inspire. They spend their own time going over posts to insure the space is welcoming and free of put downs. Again, this doesn't meet your qualifications for a community.



Wayne Stinnett said:


> If the fear of an expensive lawsuit, for supporting a cause that is just and right, is the determining factor, I cannot in good conscience, feed money into this neutrality. I've pumped thousands of dollars into helping fellow Indie Publishers and spent thousands of hours helping others. But, I will not stand for neutrality with my work. To that end, I have removed book links from my signature line. Maybe they don't earn KBoards a penny, maybe they do. I don't know.
> 
> But, I will no longer support a sub-community that does not support the Indie Publishing community's welfare out of fear.


They've come out and said that it's not about the lawsuit threat. Although it would be something I'd be worried about. The reason I came across was simply that they didn't want the moral problem of having innocent people talked about, vilified and condemned in a public forum. I believe no one here wants that to happen, the problem comes up on who we think is innocent.

To side step that issue they simply put out that no one can be vilified. This prevents them from having to vet every nasty post or linked talking point. Personally I think it's impossible to be the moral center for a group of people and their way is the only way that works. While it does inhibit the ability to post about things, the other way is impossible for the Mods to do. They can't go through every post, cross reference the evidence, and make a judgement on guilt, which means that innocent people will get caught up in the grinder.

This place offers Indie authors a information, help, support and a happy place to be. Just because it won't allow a certain behavior should not in any way take away from that. What your saying is that because they've made a choice you don't like, you don't want to play anymore.

The question of the day is 'How do we fight scammers, black hat marketers, and the overall threats to Indie Publishing?'

You answered that we need to be upfront and go get up. To put our money where our mouth's are and support the front line troops if we can't be them.

They answered by providing a community where those who are looking for answers can find them. To connect like minded authors. To be a safe place where the innocent don't need to fear being outed and savaged by mistake. To create a safe place for everyone. That it's an individual's right to decide where they stand and it's not the communities right to dictate it for them.

Neither is wrong. But then only one of you is condemning the other.

I'd like to end with the fact that I don't know you. But I don't dislike you. I agree with what your fighting for and support the same cause. In listening to the news today I heard they evacuated the White Helmets from Syria. They didn't grab a gun and kill, they didn't join the various milita's, they believed that people should be saved. The men and woman ran into bombed out places, and rescued the injured. Do you think they cared any less for their country than the ones fighting for freedom?

If the moderators find this offensive I understand.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

HopelessFanatic said:


> I'm saddened that this community no longer is willing to give a voice to those being attacked by others with bigger voices. Isn't that what community is? Coming together in support, to lift up the small so they don't get trampled by the mighty?
> 
> So many individuals do not have the volume to match even a small percentage of others. So what happens when one of the biggest microphones in the indie community (since it's public) no longer allows individuals to speak?
> 
> ...


This is very eloquently said. Thanks for saying it.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

I believe that if you helped to build a problem, gave it a voice and let it recruit from your ranks, the least you can do is allow people to discuss the facts when it's finally gone to a court case.

I don't think it's right to allow someone to use the platform to recruit_ for years_, with nary a word said against them, then shut down the discussion of the lawsuit funded by this community.

I do understand that the Kboards team has a difficult job, but the thread was running, in my opinion, within the rules set by the moderators. To have it shut down before the case has run it's course makes it hard for the wider community to be informed.

Because this particular person is still actively recruiting. People are still getting pulled in, unaware of what they are getting into.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

MyraScott said:


> I believe that if you helped to build a problem, gave it a voice and let it recruit from your ranks, the least you can do is allow people to discuss the facts when it's finally gone to a court case.
> 
> I don't think it's right to allow someone to use the platform to recruit_ for years_, with nary a word said against them, then shut down the discussion of the lawsuit funded by this community.


Yes, that was my thought too. I've completely stayed out of all this, but constant glowing reports here of that person's services (including from MANY well-regarded members), and the high esteem she seemed to be held in for quite a long time, convinced me to part with hundreds of dollars to book her services for the future - which I then didn't use, because I later found out that it wasn't perhaps as above board as was claimed. $300 gone forever, but my nose is still clean. Still, it hurts.

I know the mods have a really difficult job here. And this is no easy thing to decide how to moderate. But Wayne and others are rightfully annoyed.

Still, KBoards is a business. It's not a democracy we all own a share of. And every business owner has to make their own decisions.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

I've found some mod decisions to be curious. 

For example, it's a fact and publicly available that a certain person was banned from Amazon.

It's also a fact and publicly available that authors who appeared in boxsets with that person and arranged by them have been banned from Amazon. Three to my count so far and I've barely bothered to look.

I used to think a year or so ago that I might go into a boxset and maybe even do some co-authoring. If I had that thought now, it's entirely possibly I could stumble into association with people I shouldn't work with because it cannot be publicly said "this author got banned, so did this one, so did this one and they were all connected to this other Author so maybe look closely at said author."

Michael-Scott Earle's public statement on his ban got edited away. Because of how the moderation is, I'm afraid to start a new post titled "Michael-Scott Earle's public statement on his Amazon ban"... although I think such a thing is of interest to the indie community.

And there is a lot to talk about in his public statement, including formatting he was using in his books that may have contributed to a ban.

Another author who was banned has also made a public statement about it, but I don't want to risk being banned myself by posting it.

I don't know... I guess because there is moderation that means the mods choose what stays up and what is removed. Thus if something defamatory stays up, action can be taken against the website itself and the owner. I can understand not wanting to have your life and bank balance destroyed by a meritless lawsuit.

On the other hand - removing or editing publicly available information, including screenshots... yeah, I don't know if that's a great move.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Communities always have factions. It's the fact of community. The only community where everyone is clearly on one side is one composed of mindless robots.



OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow said:


> Bad actors abound in life. No, that's not saying we shouldn't fight against evil everyday but lets not make this a crusade. There has never been a shortage of people willing to steal, lie, and cheat to get more money and that's all without even talking about the book business. I'm not for them doing it but I am for people understanding that this kind of moral choice is not new, and cannot be won. It can be fought as its been fought through history but it is not new, and not something out of the norm for human existence.
> 
> I do think calling others books trash is harsh and overdone. You might only be talking about the stuffers and scammers but given how often the outside world calls Indie Authors books trash I'd appreciate a more diplomatic tone. We all struggle with quality and no one here likes to be reminded of the stigma we still face.
> 
> ...


I agree pretty much with the above sentiments.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll no doubt have the unpopular opinion here, but I have to say my first thought is that I feel sorry for the moderators. I only check in every few days, if that, but I've only seen Becca the past few days, if not weeks. One person, trying to moderate this board, on a volunteer (I'm assuming) basis - overwhelming. My thoughts go in two directions here. The first is concern for the other two moderators. I can only assume some sort of personal issue is keeping them away, so my heart goes out to them.

The second is empathy for Becca, because volunteering can suck even when you aren't doing the work of three. My husband and I have spent years volunteering in all sorts of positions for our community. We've been yelled at, cursed at, and even physically threatened - because there weren't enough flavors of donuts at the "Donuts with Dad" breakfast at the elementary school, someone's kid didn't want to take the penalty kick at the high school soccer game, I had the audacity to suggest we take a vote at a PTA meeting .... But we have volunteered, and continue to volunteer, because we want to make our community better. That doesn't mean we can be all things to all people. It simply means we do what we can, when we can, within the parameters we choose to inhabit. We quit for a while - two years, actually - because the negativity became too much. I'd really hate to see our moderators throw in the towel. 

I feel as if the wife of the founder of KBoards has made her position clear. This board is what it is; the rules are what they are. I also feel as if we need to respect that. I understand those who don't agree, but thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

If it was me as an admin here, I'd be doing something like this:

Create an always locked informational thread, into which mods post actual facts. (And update them.)
Create a submission process, to submit to the facts thread.

The Submission process could simply be a custom username, you PM submissions to. No public thread, so no fighting over anything. Everyone can submit, but only someone in charge decides if its postable.

Yes, its a bit of work for someone, but it doesn't have to be a mod. Forum software does allow you to set up an area with very limited posting. Like a notice board, where only a chosen username can post, but everyone can read.



blubarry said:


> My issue with the restrictions on naming names is that it forces people away from kboards.


Sad fact is, when you send people away, a lot of them dont come back. This is why 20Books group exists. I dont want to get sent away. I like it here (most of the time).



Patty Jansen said:


> we know what Facebook groups to visit.


No, we don't.

And for those we do, some of us don't have access.

This forum is rapidly becoming irrelevant. It tells us nothing, and has a reputation of incessantly arguing to the point where people get mobbed and leave because they dont feel safe here. Out in the FB groups, Kboards references are often responded to with 'Never going there again' comments.

I understand the Mods position. I support even handed moderation. But what is going on now is totally ridiculous!

I don't have access to 20Books, and the other FB groups I belong to never get any of this. It simply isn't posted there. I feel in the dark, and that the mods current policy's are hanging me out to dry, where my next decision could doom me, simply because I dont know what is going on, and who to avoid.

This forum does have a long tradition of pointing out the scams and to be avoided stuff as it presents itself here. I've learnt a lot this way. I've avoided a lot of the marketing pitfalls by reading the threads here. But now, its like 'Who turned out the lights!'.

We need the facts. We need them in a way which doesn't allow for mud slinging and false allegations. We need discussion on facts, and this includes names which are facts.

The forum owners and mods need to decide if this forum is in the 21st century and provide the mechanism, or if its back in the 19th century and wants to keep collective heads in the sand. I've never been in favour of sticking your head in the sand, because someone can still kick your bum without warning.

We need facts. We need interpretation of the facts. We need joining facts together. Lets come up with a way of doing this, which doesn't get anyone sued.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> The forum owners and mods need to decide if this forum is in the 21st century and provide the mechanism, or if its back in the 19th century and wants to keep collective heads in the sand.


It's not as bad as all that. 95% of the forum performs well for most members. It only gets jammed up on a few topics, and in response, a non-affiliated forum has opened for those who want to take the gloves off.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

There is no need for heads in the sand. If you really want all the hot goss, it's easy to find out where to get it. That's if you want it, or even need it. There is a lot of sordid stuff out there. There are a number of groups, some already mentioned on this thread, where you can go and get your fill of gossip. You just need to go and join them. Really, it's not that hard. You can't demand that a public serves it up on a platter because hot goss has the tendency to spark horrible flame wars that are thankfully not part of this forum.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

It's not all that easy to find these places where stuff is publicly shared. I know, I've tried for years to find them and met with a blank, because the majority of them are closed to general reading. Private groups, invitation only. So for newbies or people who havn't been spending a lot of time reading the nuance here, it can be hard to figure out what's going on. Now that there is an open group where people can read about this stuff, they can be told where to go by PM, if that's more comfortable, but the site's founder has posted the link a few times.

I know the mods have a difficult and thankless job. I know the site owner doesn't want any legal trouble. I think Timothy's idea about a thread only a selected person can post info in could be a workable plan. Heck, just post links to sites with statements that are publicly available, and now there are articles in the media that are talking about these issues. People need to know what and who they're dealing with, or they will join the ranks of victims.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

The groups may be closed or "secret", but they are rarely closed to new members. Some have been mentioned on this very thread, by the very people who wanted to know stuff. You want the gossip, just ask to join the group. 

Just ask a friend via PM or on Facebook. For the rest, just google. If you don't like the result, change the wording of the search. Seriously, there is no reason to act helpless if you really want to know.

On the other hand, you can waste a lot of time with this, and a lot won't be applicable. If you only do AMS ads, there is no need to know about dodgy mailing lists. If you're concerned about a particular service, again, just ask some people who have experience.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Back when I ran an industry board myself, I faced this problem. People wanted to name-and-shame companies that were simply having late shipping issues, or weren't nice enough on the phone. You can't allow a free-for-all without opening yourself up to liability.

However, if someone was willing to post it themselves, on their own site, I allowed discussion of it. (This was before Facebook killed most community sites.) As long as the primary complaint was posted somewhere the poster themselves could take ownership and responsibility for it, I allowed discussion of the issue.

We did face a few lawsuit threats but because we didn't originate the allegations, _discussing them was reasonable. _

I know KBoards got a subpoena, but that effort to shut down communication is a tactic that works for the people who don't want fairness. While all the cross complaints were thrown out by the judge and ridiculed, they still cost people money they shouldn't have had to spend.

Intimidation works. Until people start standing up and saying no.

People posting here are often subjected to scrutiny- some businesses never get off the ground because they post here and everyone asks the hard, skeptical questions.

But hard questions of this particular person were not supported and as a consequence KBoards gave a shining endorsement to this business for years.

There was no balanced discussion, only glowing praise. And people who happily thought they were investing in their business found themselves mired in personal drama with less than nothing to show for it but wasted time and money. Sometimes worse.

Kboards is a wonderful resource because it attracts a broad audience. The open access means it doesn't discriminate, it doesn't exclude. Closed FB groups are echo chambers, fractured and factioned.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

I myself have wondered about the closed groups, the members-only sections of these other internet forums and private sub-reddits which apparently name names and go into great detail about things. 

I notice they aren't "public forums" either, for the most part. I think I saw one name in public mentioned on a reddit. But no list of names.

I find it curious that there are some people expecting KBoards to do what the other forums won't do: put it all in public.


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## GrahamCrackers (Jun 2, 2018)

jb1111 said:


> I find it curious that there are some people expecting KBoards to do what the other forums won't do: put it all in public.


I think this may be a case of looking at something backwards.

Correct me if I'm wrong but a lot of these outside groups developed over time and were as a direct result of some of the previous controversies here, no? I seem to remember the whole Erotica author and Google Adsense issue. A lot of those authors went elsewhere so they could discuss stuff they weren't allowed to here. I know the same has happened following other events.

The problem to me seems to be that this is often one of the earliest ports of call for new authors, or authors wanting to talk with the wider community. That reputation has been cultivated and established at this point, and the new chilling effect on discussing some very pertinent industry issues is of benefit to no one other than the bad actors. Seems a bit like wanting your cake and eating it too.


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## Elizabeth S. (Oct 20, 2016)

........ said:


> I don't know... I guess because there is moderation that means the mods choose what stays up and what is removed. Thus if something defamatory stays up, action can be taken against the website itself and the owner. I can understand not wanting to have your life and bank balance destroyed by a meritless lawsuit.
> 
> On the other hand - removing or editing publicly available information, including screenshots... yeah, I don't know if that's a great move.


I agree with this 100 percent.

I also think it's unfair to keep a member from being able to defend herself when the other person involved is making completely public statements.


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## Aloha (Jun 5, 2018)

Patty Jansen said:


> ... There is a lot of sordid stuff out there. There are a number of groups, some already mentioned on this thread, where you can go and get your fill of gossip...


Yes.

I have seen many destroyed through gossip (both spoken and written). It is always disguised as "truth" by those with an agenda.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

oakwood said:


> Wayne, I respect your work and your support for the case but man... this is practically blackmail.. if you don't do this then I won't do that. Trying to impose yours, and/or a group's stance onto a general public forum is not cool.
> 
> IMHO kboards mods do good in keeping things neutral because neutral means it can serve more people. Do we want kboards to be partial of specific topics/questions/issues and thereby take a stance in support of individuals? Going down that hole never ends. There are other channels for tha already, the simplest twitter and FB and reddit
> 
> ...


But the problem is that it's not neutral. Some people are allowed to say things and gather support, while the opposing viewpoint get modded. It's not the moderation that's the problem, it's the unevenness of it. If one side is going to be modded, then both sides should be.

To my mind, the problem comes from the fact that Writer's Cafe is held up as a hub of information for indie authors, but it doesn't have the whole story. Parts of the story get modded, and we're told that it's KBoards' house so it's KBoards' rules - which is absolutely true - but then when someone says, 'hey, let's take this discussion elsewhere' the moderators complain that people are going elsewhere. I mean, I'm sure most people would rather have the discussion here, but if we can't have a discussion with all the facts, then the conversation is useless, and doesn't do anything to protect innocent people from getting taken in.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2018)

MClayton said:


> I feel as if the wife of the founder of KBoards has made her position clear. This board is what it is; the rules are what they are. I also feel as if we need to respect that.


This.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

oakwood said:


> Well, part of the problem of allowing specific individual talk is when are facts facts and are the facts really facts and who established the facts to be so and so on and so on and it risks never ending.
> 
> Fact is a risky work in itself. There are very very few absolute facts in the universe.
> Anyway, as to this particular issue.. all the facts do not yet exist. It's an ongoing legal case. As yet unfinished.
> I can easily understand why mods want this to not get too specific, its either that or be forced to lock every broader talk about industry issues.


But when only some people are allowed to speak, it slants the conversation far too much, and innocent people get hurt. When only good things are said, and the negative things are forbidden, it makes people feel that they're safe in trusting what they shouldn't.

ETA: Actually, when only good things are said, because the bad things are forbidden, it effectively creates an endorsement of the thing being talked about. And with no room for rebuttal, that's really not cool.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

I see both sides of it honestly. Could a happy medium be at least allowing links to further discussion outside of Kboards? Because it would be helpful to know some details as to who is safe/not safe to do business with. I suppose it really just comes down to being vigilant and doing research.


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## guerin (Mar 12, 2018)

MClayton said:


> I'll no doubt have the unpopular opinion here, but I have to say my first thought is that I feel sorry for the moderators. I only check in every few days, if that, but I've only seen Becca the past few days, if not weeks. One person, trying to moderate this board, on a volunteer (I'm assuming) basis - overwhelming. My thoughts go in two directions here. The first is concern for the other two moderators. I can only assume some sort of personal issue is keeping them away, so my heart goes out to them.


I don't think most of the people who have posted have any idea what it means to be a moderator or have themselves ever moderated a forum. I have. Most volunteer in order for these forums to exist. They support these forums by offering their services to keep them running, but they are not the ones in charge of the forums and its rules. They have more input then you or I, but still, any arguments they may have with how the forums are moderated are not allowed to be posted or made public if they want to continue to moderate the forum.

I made that mistake a couple of times. First on my forum, which I then retracted, but the hullabaloo had gotten big enough that an outside org had asked me for an interview. I agreed. Even though I towed the party line, I got called into the principal's office anyways for granting the interview. They let me stay on as moderator and I held my tongue. All the while I was looking for a replacement and when I had one, I left.

The moderators are silent on this subject most probably because they have been asked to be so. Sometimes they may put the kaibosh on post because they were told to, and when you question them about it, they will remain silent because that is the best they can do.

Sure, there are forums moderated by Nazis who just get off on the whole power trip. I haven't noticed this about the moderators on this board. Perhaps we should take a breath and think about the moderators' position before we dump a rash of shit on them. Trust me, sooner or later it just isn't worth it when your volunteering your time.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

oakwood said:


> Wayne, I respect your work and your support for the case but man... this is practically blackmail.. if you don't do this then I won't do that. Trying to impose yours, and/or a group's stance onto a general public forum is not cool.
> 
> IMHO kboards mods do good in keeping things neutral because neutral means it can serve more people. Do we want kboards to be partial of specific topics/questions/issues and thereby take a stance in support of individuals? Going down that hole never ends. There are other channels for tha already, the simplest twitter and FB and reddit
> 
> ...


Perhaps I didn't make it clear. There's no blackmail here. I'm making no demands. KBoards is a business, just like mine. I'm the only one who makes the decisions for my business, and would never tell anyone how they should run theirs. But, I won't allow anyone to make money off me, if I don't agree with their business practices.

Every day, new people show up here. It's one of the first sites a newbie author finds when looking for information on how to get their work published. I know it was the first place I found. We are stewards of the next wave of Indie Publishers. If the very place these people come to can't take a firm stand on what is right and decent, where will these people find it?

So no, indecisive neutrality is not an option in my book. My world is black and white. Maybe it's the old Marine in me, but I'll call a person a _[moderated]_ if that's what they are. If a person is not FOR doing the right thing, then they are AGAINST it.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Rose Andrews said:


> I suppose it really just comes down to being vigilant and doing research.


Essentially, yes. There are a lot of resources out there. Can be hard to find them, though. When one community of writers can't give all the answers, find another one to join or create a new one. And participate in several. Share the wealth of knowledge in as many places as possible and shine the light in all the dark corners of the world so that bad actors are exposed.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

It's so amusing for people to be told to be vigilant and do the research, on a topic that no one is willing to talk about. Private boards, by the way, won't be showing up on Google.

I forget what the topic was, but there were the usual veiled hints about something crooked going on, and I spent time for a couple of days trying various search terms looking for even the smallest clue. I finally PM'd someone and just asked. It was making me crazy, but I ended up knowing a lot more than I probably wanted about all the many ways to scam Amazon.


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## Aloha (Jun 5, 2018)

Rose Andrews said:


> I suppose it really just comes down to being vigilant and doing research.


Doing research is most helpful. Months ago, numerous posters here at Kboards wrote that a certain author had been banned from Amazon. I went to Amazon at that time and saw dozens of books still for sale by that author. I just checked again a few minutes ago and that so-called "banned from Amazon" author still has dozens of books for sale there, with very positive reviews for them posted in the last couple of weeks.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Aloha said:


> Doing research is most helpful. Months ago, numerous posters here at Kboards wrote that a certain author had been banned from Amazon. I went to Amazon at that time and saw dozens of books still for sale by that author. I just checked again a few minutes ago and that so-called "banned from Amazon" author still has dozens of books for sale there, with very positive reviews for them posted in the last couple of weeks.


I don't know which author you're speaking of, but I know of at least one case where an author's KDP account was terminated and yet that author's books are once again on sale via 3rd party publishing. That does not negate whatever behavior got that author's account terminated in the first place, nor does it mean Amazon has reinstated that author's account.



> It's so amusing for people to be told to be vigilant and do the research, on a topic that no one is willing to talk about. Private boards, by the way, won't be showing up on Google.


Exactly this. I have done ample research and been burned by a lack of information. Information that only came to light when it was too late. (for me, anyway.)


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> If the very place these people come to can't take a firm stand on what is right and decent, where will these people find it?


I highly doubt you're going to find many indie authors here that are supportive of the scammers or are even neutral. I'd say we're all pretty much against them (though I am NOT a spokesman for the community). But, when it comes right down to it, unless Amazon and B&N and the other booksellers get serious about stomping on the scammers, there's not a whole lot we can do. We can scream, we can cry, we can sign numerous petitions, we can yank all our books out of KU, but it won't make any difference until the big corporations get on the ball and help.

I'm just a lowly writer that hasn't even hit my first $100 month yet, so I'm kind of at a loss as to what you think I am going to do about these scammers. Yes, if CC or TS were standing right in front of me, I'd be more than happy to tell them exactly what I think of them and might even use a few four letter words to get my point across. But in the end, what good is that going to do?

Jeff Bezos hasn't sent me my invitation to this weekend's BBQ, so I won't be able to get in his ear about the problem and I doubt sending an email to [email protected] is going to do much either.

So, stop painting those of us who aren't outside Amazon's HQ with picket signs as being neutral. We're just as much against the scammers as you are.


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## passerby (Oct 18, 2015)

Here is what the site owner had to say about this community, from July 2017:



chc said:


> <snip>
> Harvey started KBoards soon-to-be ten years ago. It started as a forum for people who were interested in learning about Amazon's NEW  Kindle. He started it because he loves gadgets. He started it because he loved the challenge of creating the website. He started it because he loved to read.
> 
> Before long, people gathered and found a "home" here. At first, it was a place for people to discover the wonders of their Kindles and develop friendships as they learned together. Then it became a gathering place to discuss books. Soon, it was a community where friendships developed. People discussed (and continue to discuss) regular "life" things... vacations, animals, favorite TV shows, etc.
> ...


*bold mine

It doesn't sound to me like the decision to keep Kboards going was an easy one for her. If there are certain battles she'd rather not fight, perhaps that is understandable, given the circumstances?


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## vagabond.voyager (Jul 24, 2018)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Merriam-Webster defines _community_ thusly:
> 
> 1 : a unified body of individuals: such as
> a : the people with common interests living in a particular area; broadly : the area itself
> ...


This post alludes to things that someone very new, such as myself, is not aware of. Could some kind person fill in some of the blanks? Who is attacking writers? How are they doing it?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

V.P. said:


> Here is what the site owner had to say about this community, from July 2017:
> *bold mine
> 
> It doesn't sound to me like the decision to keep Kboards going was an easy one for her. If there are certain battles she'd rather not fight, perhaps that is understandable, given the circumstances?


Yes, I remember when he died, and I remember reading that and thinking it must be really hard to keep something going after your loved one - the one who was passionate about it - dies. This is one of the reasons I posted earlier that she's been clear about what she wants the board to be, and we need to respect that.

I've been lurking here a lot longer than I've been posting here (I joined in 2010), and I've seen this type of thing come up before. People get upset and leave, sometimes permanently, sometimes they just need a break. Someone mentioned earlier that the mods complain when that happens, but I think they may be mis-remembering. I remember the mods specifically saying during one of those periods that that's part of the normal ebb and flow of such a place. Truthfully, I don't think the rules of the board have really changed in all these years. I know people have complained about the strict moderation for years - I've seen it in other groups. The strict moderation is one reason I continue to hang out here.

I think the scammers have gotten bigger and better at what they're doing, which is frustrating and I think increases the anger we may feel when it's hard to get information. But the board is the board - always has been.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Perhaps I didn't make it clear. There's no blackmail here. I'm making no demands. KBoards is a business, just like mine. I'm the only one who makes the decisions for my business, and would never tell anyone how they should run theirs. But, I won't allow anyone to make money off me, if I don't agree with their business practices.
> 
> Every day, new people show up here. It's one of the first sites a newbie author finds when looking for information on how to get their work published. I know it was the first place I found. We are stewards of the next wave of Indie Publishers. If the very place these people come to can't take a firm stand on what is right and decent, where will these people find it?
> 
> So no, indecisive neutrality is not an option in my book. My world is black and white. Maybe it's the old Marine in me, but *I'll call a person a [moderated] if that's what they are*. If a person is not FOR doing the right thing, then they are AGAINST it.


Wayne said a whole lot of other truthful, measured, and highly relevant stuff.

Also also, why does anyone think all the mods are volunteers? Clearly, KBoards is a business, and at least some of the mods put in many hours, and such highly intelligent and capable people's time is worth good money.

_I assure you, we are all volunteers. Always have been. And edited quoted post and a bit that responded to it. Thanks.--Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

dgcasey said:


> So, stop painting those of us who aren't outside Amazon's HQ with picket signs as being neutral. We're just as much against the scammers as you are.


Wayne isn't talking about authors on the board, but rather Kboards itself. Nor is he talking about trying to figure out active ways to fight scamming (I don't believe.)

I believe this is about certain subjects being closed for discussion, including ones that would inform other authors about possible people not to involve themselves with.

I also believe it was a certain decision that triggered Wayne's decision.

But those are just what I understood from his post.

I do know he wasn't referring to us authors participating on these boards being neutral.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

oakwood said:


> Wayne, I respect your work and your support for the case but man... this is practically blackmail.. if you don't do this then I won't do that. Trying to impose yours, and/or a group's stance onto a general public forum is not cool.


Choosing not to support someone or something because of their policy isn't blackmail. At best it's a boycott.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Perry Constantine said:


> Choosing not to support someone or something because of their policy isn't blackmail. At best it's a boycott.


I agree. I'm pretty sure it's the definition of a peaceful protest, at least online where there is nowhere physical to be present. Including a statement with your protest about why is just a part of that.

Sure, you could choose to just leave, and take your business elsewhere (so to speak), but that negates part of the reason to protest in the first place.


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## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

she-la-ti-da said:


> It's so amusing for people to be told to be vigilant and do the research, on a topic that no one is willing to talk about. Private boards, by the way, won't be showing up on Google.
> 
> I forget what the topic was, but there were the usual veiled hints about something crooked going on, and I spent time for a couple of days trying various search terms looking for even the smallest clue. I finally PM'd someone and just asked. It was making me crazy, but I ended up knowing a lot more than I probably wanted about all the many ways to scam Amazon.


Likewise, after reading the threads here, I still have absolutely no idea who or what is the original core issue of which no one is willing - or allowed - to speak. I don't know who is the villain or their dastardly deeds, and it's alarming to discover people have lost money invested in a service (I'm assuming) that's been advertised or supported here (as I understand it). 
Every day news resources report on allegations in such a language that presents the facts without being defamatory, biased or misleading, yet provides all the basic information. Surely that can be done here? And surely any discussion prompted can be moderated into similar language with only extreme posts removed?
I understand Wayne's beef, by the way. I'm just saying I don't know any specifics at all about the background issue. And vague, too-careful references aren't helping anyone. In any serious indie publishing issue I'd always expect, or at least hope, this forum to provide the best, accurate info without having to go fishing through the FB groups.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## hjordisa (Sep 4, 2017)

The Bass Bagwhan said:


> And surely any discussion prompted can be moderated into similar language with only extreme posts removed?


I've misjudged what could be said before and I don't want this point to get lost, so apologies for contributing to the caginess, but amount of moderation needed was actually an issue with the thread (I believe) people are alluding to here. The moderators only have so much time and energy, and a hard "this is what you can say and what you can't" is easier to moderate than "this is how you can say things" and even then people will slip up when emotions run high.

I, too, would like people to be able to state facts neutrally. I'm often the one not in the loop, and I sympathize with Christina not being able to share what happened to her. I do think the scope of allowed conversation is often stricter than ideal. But trying to moderate more nuanced rules isn't necessarily workable either. Maybe it is. I'm not involved enough here to be able to hazard a guess.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> I still have absolutely no idea who or what is the original core issue of which no one is willing � or allowed � to speak. I don't know who is the villain or their dastardly deeds, and it's alarming to discover people have lost money invested in a service (I'm assuming) that's been advertised or supported here (as I understand it).


Let's see if I can distill it down (and I'll put links to threads if I can find them).

Okay, a while back there was a person who did promotion work for indies, and also organized box sets with the aim to hit either the NYT or USA Today best sellers list. This was for the sole purpose of the included authors being able to claim their "letters", AKA "NYT Best Selling Author" or "USA Today Best Selling Author". Supposedly this was awesome sauce for making sales, but it turns out, not so much.

What it was good for was making said promoter money, though she says otherwise. Those who joined the box sets had a buy in, about $2K each, I believe, plus they had to put in extra money for their own ads, plus buying copies to "gift" to people and other things that were shady tactics at best and at worst against TOS.

This person eventually was terminated from Amazon for reasons we can only really guess at, but TOS violations along the lines mentioned above, plus a nasty habit of running her books in KU and wide at the same time.

Here's a link:
https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,250491.0.html

And another:

https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,252500.0.html

In the above (and in the linked threads in the first post), there is discussion of the lawsuit brought against the promotion person. Some people who posted support of the person bringing the suit were also sued by the promotion person, though the judge threw those cases out. Still, time and money spent for stating opinions.

This is another good link about the court case:

http://davidgaughran.com/2018/04/11/please-help-an-author-fight-this-crazy-court-case/
David has a few good posts about various aspects of the dirty business that has been going on, especially the book stuffing issue.

Okay, anyway. A little while ago, we found out that an author is (well, was, now) trying to trademark a common word/phrase which has been used multiple times before and since. At one point she was sending notices to Amazon to get authors' books removed, claiming trademark infringement or violation or whatever it's called, and started a suit against people who made an anthology in response. This suit has been won and the trademark attempt stopped (said author did that herself).

As if that wasn't enough, more authors are trying to trademark yet more common words and phrases, and one even tried to trademark a generic cover design (one that almost every author in some genres will have used). That's been blamed on his lawyer now, so will likely be withdrawn.

There have been several authors who have had their accounts terminated (one of them the author in the above paragraph), all claiming to have no idea how that could have possibly happened. It has been noted that these authors have some level of connection with the promotion person first discussed above. There seems to be some level of evidence that these people were all involved in certain "super secret" mastermind groups, where they traded info on how to get one over on Amazon and the rest of us.

Here's a good link for stuff about a couple of the people who had accounts terminated (and there are a few more if you go to the main reddit page for that group):

https://www.reddit.com/r/litrpg/comments/906fln/is_michaelscott_earle_aiming_to_trademark_the/
Other threads of interest:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,263084.0.html

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,263872.0.html

That's the basics of the problem. Between the book stuffing, click-farming/bot reading, the formatting issues to get more KENPC, the tricks to make box sets hit best seller lists, trademarking common words, and stuff I've probably forgotten, that's a snapshot of how the indie world is turning into scammer central.

Now, I need to write some words that can actually make me some money. I hope.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm too tired to go through and fix the formatting, but it seems readable enough. There will be a test on the subject matter during class tomorrow.


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## OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow (Jun 10, 2018)

There seems to be a strange narrative going on here.

No one is saying anything good about any banned party.
There are no threads promoting there side of the story.
There are no authors on this platform currently defending them.
There are no authors fighting for the other litigants side.

Simply put the moderators are doing exactly what they should do. They are shutting down both sides. If there is a bias it is for the party that had the thread, as she is still able to post, make friends and be defended. I'm unsure how this isn't choosing a side. If I'm wrong I'd be glad to have someone point me to a current thread where the other litigant is praised?


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Perhaps it's time we flipped this completely over.

Much has been said about this being one of the first ports of call for newbie authors, and those in the process of writing their first book.

Instead of arguing the negatives, how about we create a thread where we inform about how to do things in a way which avoids the negatives?

How about a full 2018 list on a first post, of all the things a new author should be concerned with, and how to do it completely TOS compliant. Everything from titling/sub-titling, font size, indent and paragraph spacing, acceptable bonus material, using the styles in Word, basic marketing tips, trademarking, box sets, collaborating, etc. But we also say where the lines are, and warn how to recognize something which may get them into trouble. Say what is allowed and not allowed in KU where it is black and white, and provide a line not to be crossed where its grey scale.


In other words, lets identify where the mines are, by outlining the whole field. 


In 2019, we update it. If Amazon makes a ruling, we update it. If something comes along as a new scam, we document what is right, and draw the line on what is not.

At the moment, all we have is white-washed poo-doo. Instead of complaining about it, why dont we document how to do it properly and safely?


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow said:


> There seems to be a strange narrative going on here.
> 
> No one is saying anything good about any banned party.
> There are no threads promoting there side of the story.
> ...


But they didn't always shut down both sides. This has been going on for a long time, and for quite a while, only some things got shut down. That effectively made it possible for a lot of innocent people to get sucked in, because, when they looked for warning signs, there were none.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Stepping in with the reminder that the KBoards site owner forbade further discussion of Hamilton here following the box set scams thread, so discussion of her should go no further than the thread links she-la-ti-da provided.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

TimothyEllis said:


> Perhaps it's time we flipped this completely over.
> 
> Much has been said about this being one of the first ports of call for newbie authors, and those in the process of writing their first book.
> 
> ...


As a wanna be writer i absolutely love this idea. It would be time consuming but super helpful!!!!!


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## OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow (Jun 10, 2018)

ShayneRutherford said:


> But they didn't always shut down both sides. This has been going on for a long time, and for quite a while, only some things got shut down. That effectively made it possible for a lot of innocent people to get sucked in, because, when they looked for warning signs, there were none.


I wasn't part of this community back then so I'll take your word for it. Bad things happened in the past, people were taken for a ride and crap went down. Some people believe KBoards should of been more proactive and blame it for the fact that more wasn't said. Maybe that's fair, maybe it's even right. But that's not now.

Your drawing an analogy from the past to say the same thing is going on now. The problem is that I see people post threads all the time about services and get honest feed back both good and bad. I haven't seen one example of what your talking about in current affairs. Naming the names of banned authors isn't going to give you a shield against bad actors. And make no mistake, once that door is open innocents will get pulled into the grinder. Shame and blame is the game of the internet and you can't escape it.

*How about a list of only those banned?* This sound fantastic until you realize many people get reinstated. By that time their reputation has been destroyed on KBoards for nothing more than getting caught in Amazon's net.

*How about only the ones we know are scamming?* Who will be the judge and jury on this? The people screaming for heads from behind anonymous names? Somehow I don't feel encouraged about that prospect. I'm not saying they are bad people but I'm not willing to be judged by a forum on the internet full of people who don't even want me to know their names. I'm strange that way.

Maybe a third party we can all agree on? We can't even agree on what kind of beverage to have.

*Innocents are going to be hurt if we don't have all the information.* And the world will keep turning. The fact is that bad stuff happens. There are ways to prepare but it seems that no one wants to do them. I'm going to suggest something radical... revolutionary even... make friends. PM people asking for help, talk to people in private chat, make connections with the others on this board. Most people won't tell you the secret stuff in the open but get them behind closed doors and you get their real feelings. Why? Because trust is earned.

If half the people demanding answers had reached out an PM'd someone with questions they'd have those answers.

*This is my livelihood and I could lose it all.* The one fool proof way to make sure you don't get scammed is... Don't do box sets. Format your own book. Don't do newsletters. And do your own advertising. What you control you command.

I like KBoards. And I admire the Mods here. I'm a great believer is civility in debate no matter if it's the internet or real life. I try very hard to be nice to everyone and treat others as the beautiful people they are. Many times I've had to walk away from this forum simply because I couldn't stand the way a poster had treated another. In life I think we should strive to be more civil and fair not fight for ways to be less. And no I'm not saying anyone here is trying to do that... but the fall out would be the same.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

TimothyEllis said:


> Perhaps it's time we flipped this completely over.
> 
> Much has been said about this being one of the first ports of call for newbie authors, and those in the process of writing their first book.
> 
> ...


This is an interesting idea, Tim. I'd love to hear it batted around some more (possible pros, cons, etc.).

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## DCRWrites (Jan 20, 2014)

The only real con I can see is the issue of being able to keep it updated so that people don't rely on it in that period between a policy change and an update.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow said:


> *This is my livelihood and I could lose it all.* The one fool proof way to make sure you don't get scammed is... Don't do box sets. Format your own book. Don't do newsletters. And do your own advertising. What you control you command.


If you have ideas about ways to advertise that are not reliant on someone else's service, I'm all ears. Seriously. I would love some brainstorming outside the usual box of Facebook ads/bookbub/other advertising newsletters.


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## OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow (Jun 10, 2018)

Dragovian said:


> If you have ideas about ways to advertise that are not reliant on someone else's service, I'm all ears. Seriously. I would love some brainstorming outside the usual box of Facebook ads/bookbub/other advertising newsletters.


I was actually talking more about doing the ads yourself and not hiring outside services to do them for you. Many of the scammers billed themselves as on stop shops. But I've actually looked into this because I think the current paradigm is used up with a soul of plastic. I've seen a lot of people going back to basics and focusing on writing magazines, periodicals, and genre specific events. The idea is that everyone who see's your ad is a person who is already interested in that type of book.

If your writing fantasy, look for fantasy events like a Renaissance Fair and put an ad in their map. That's just an example off the top of my head but you can see the mode of thinking. Look for your audience in the areas they're in, not in a list of people who may not even read your genre. If I wrote LitRpg I'd be giving my book out at gaming stores for free. If I wrote military scifi I'd get ads in the military base news outlets.

Would you rather reach a hundred people that read your genre or a thousand that might read it? We are bombarded by ads on social media and through email, we see them and click off them but say you have a map of an event in your hand for 8 hours... Or maybe your favorite what's new in goth has an ad for a new vampire book. I think as authors we have to start looking outside the digital world and seek a real connection in the real world.

You don't know me. I don't know you. But I'm a 40 year old man who lives in Washington that spends a lot of time reading and writing with a beautiful woman who thinks I should socialize more. I'm bigger than I want to be and get tongue tied around pretty woman. And I absolutely love people because I think people go through life with too little love. If we sat down at a table and talked I'd drink my tea and go on about the things I love and listen to the you as if you were the only person in the world.

This... isn't that. I don't know your name. I can't see your eyes. And I don't feel you as a human being should feel another human. If you want people to buy your books then it's all about that connection. Not because you want to sell them something but because you have something they'll love. I'd rather give my book to a person for free who I know will enjoy it than sell five to people who will never read it.

I want a real relationship with my readers. And while I know that digital advertising is necessary I still think the real world is where the real money and reward is. But then like I said I'm old and when you get old I've found you get strange.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Stepping in here to clarify two things I've seen here.

First, the moderators here are indeed volunteers.  Always have been.  We do it for love of this community.  Really.  Sometimes y'all make me crazy, but we have really good members.

Second, I want to apologize to the community and the mod staff, especially Becca, who is a goddess, for not being here more the last five weeks while dealing with a death in my family.  I'm hoping that things are settling down now and I'll be able to give Becca a break.  


I can't comment on much else, as I'm way behind on forum issues...but I do appreciate that this thread is staying civil.  Appreciate the thoughtful discussion.

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Becca Mills said:


> This is an interesting idea, Tim. I'd love to hear it batted around some more (possible pros, cons, etc.).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Perhaps a separate thread to discuss what would be in such a thread? We do have a pinned thread with links to threads of interest, but I'm afraid it's not been kept up to date.

Betsy


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> Perhaps it's time we flipped this completely over.
> 
> Much has been said about this being one of the first ports of call for newbie authors, and those in the process of writing their first book.
> 
> ...


I would love to see (and help) with something like this if possible. I felt so alone for years when I first got into this business and made a lot of mistakes. Now that I know better, there's nothing I enjoy more than helping someone new along the rocky way.

I still don't know about most of the issues surrounding the people who shall not be named, but I did like following the lawsuit threads because in a roundabout way it affected us all. However, the mods here do have a tough job. I may not always agree with their decisions, but KB has been a boon of information that has helped me be a better marketer, so thumbs up.

So if something does happen with your idea, Timothy, count me in!


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> This is an interesting idea, Tim. I'd love to hear it batted around some more (possible pros, cons, etc.).


To expand as an example:

The gap between paragraphs has been used to game KU, by making it really big. So we do 2 things. We give a maximum gap we know is no problem to KDP, as a recommendation, with a warning that a larger one in KU may be considered gaming the KU system. We then explain how you set this up in Word styles, and each of the major software.

The gap I use came from the first book on how to format and upload your book to KDP I got before trying it the first time. My indent is personal, since I use a minimal one, not actually liking them at all. But like gaps, we need to specify what is considered too big, or likely to be KU negative.

In setting the thread up, given how much information is potentially involved, I'd recommend 2 things. 1. The thread owner needs to be someone who's intending to be around for a good long time, and who is motivated to keep it updated. It doesn't have to be a mod, but it cant be someone whose only here every blue moon. 2. The first 10 posts after the OP are posted immediately blank, reserved explicitly for the information part of the thread, allowing sections to get their own post, and allowing for expansion in the future. This allows for separation of craft and marketing, KU specifics, and maybe trademarks and copyright - all of which get their own post. It needs someone used to presenting information.

The moderation of the thread would allow for new information to be posted by anyone, including corrections when policy changes, or interpretations change, or when Amazon starts to enforce something. It would allow for some discussion, but not argument. Some discussion is needed to reach a consensus of what is a good recommendation. But argument, or someone rehashing other threads is not, and should be removed. It needs to focus on at first making a good information resource, and then keeping it that way.

Pros are in the end, we have a sticky thread we can point new people to, with most of the good answers we keep giving anyway in it, and whenever KU crops up, we just say as long as you remain within the guidelines in this thread, you should be fine. Cons are the mods maybe need to keep the thread on target more than most.

Although if the thread creator and mods are willing, it could also be set up so only they could post in the thread, and submissions go to the thread creator via PM. This restricts discussion, lowers the work on the mods, but ups the amount of work for the creator. It also has a few difficulties as far as forum setup is concerned.



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Perhaps a separate thread to discuss what would be in such a thread? We do have a pinned thread with links to threads of interest, but I'm afraid it's not been kept up to date.


Okay. I'll start one shortly.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow said:


> I wasn't part of this community back then so I'll take your word for it. Bad things happened in the past, people were taken for a ride and crap went down. Some people believe KBoards should of been more proactive and blame it for the fact that more wasn't said. Maybe that's fair, maybe it's even right. But that's not now.
> 
> Your drawing an analogy from the past to say the same thing is going on now. The problem is that I see people post threads all the time about services and get honest feed back both good and bad. I haven't seen one example of what your talking about in current affairs.


And you won't. Because threads get pruned and then locked, so it looks like those comments were never made.


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## DMChappellAuthor (Jul 9, 2017)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Every day, new people show up here. It's one of the first sites a newbie author finds when looking for information on how to get their work published. I know it was the first place I found. We are stewards of the next wave of Indie Publishers.


I have no clue what is going on in the shadows, so I am finding this conversation to be fascination. What I do know is that you are exactly right in this one comment. As a relatively new Indie Author this place has been my lifeline for advice, assistance, and information. The community support, minus a few rotten eggs that are always rude, has been awesome. That being said, I have been burned once by using services offered on KBoards. Even though I tried to do my due diligence I still got taken. That being said, I posted an honest review of the service and it was never removed nor moderated. Granted the service buried my comments with its weekly repeat of "good reviews" so...

In any case, what one deems as great service another may deem as awful and/or they just had different results with the same product, it happens. However, if there is something out there that has shown a consistent trend for taking advantage of authors on this site I would sure like the heads up before I get taken as well. I hope this makes some sense even though I am in the dark about what is really being discussed. I guess I just don't spend enough time delving through threads to know what's going on. I come in, get what I need, and get out.

DMC


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Second, I want to apologize to the community and the mod staff, especially Becca, who is a goddess, for not being here more the last five weeks while dealing with a death in my family.


I'm sorry for your loss, Betsy.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

ShayneRutherford said:


> I'm sorry for your loss, Betsy.


Thank you, Shayne.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'm very sorry for your loss, Betsy. And thanks to all our moderators for doing this thankless task.


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## A J Sika (Apr 22, 2016)

I'm a little torn on this whole thing.
On one hand, I agree that people (especially newbies who don't know where to look) should be informed of what's going on and who they should investigate first before doing business with. However, I also understand the mods decision to quell some discussions simply because anyone with eyes can see that they're just wildfires and court cases waiting to happen.

The only suggestion I can come up with is to have a pinned thread that only the mods can comment on that gives basic news about what's going on in the industry. The thread would only state facts and be updated according to the latest 'scandal'

EX: The word 'cocky' gets trademarked (add a few details) or MES applied for trademark for covers (explain exactly what the trademark is for) or RH account is closed by Amazon or Current High Profile Account Closures on Amazon (with list) or Services that Amazon has gone after or shut down. This isn't speculation it's fact (kind of like what newspapers do) and if things change mods can simply update that piece of news.

Of course people can start threads on those issues but if mods deem the threads too problematic they can shut them down but with a link to the pinned thread that just gives the basics of the issues so everyone is informed and we don't need to treasure hunt on the internet.

I don't know if it could work. Could it?


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

I'm another one who's torn on this. In general, I support information being available for more than just those 'in the know' (or with the time and know-how to scour the web) and would definitely vote toward publicly shared posts from high profile authors being permitted to be copied into relevant threads.

However, I am so grateful to the mods for the untold volunteer hours they put in to keeping kboards a place where civil discussion can occur. And I am saddened to hear about your loss, Betsy, and definitely think no one should feel guilty for taking time off volunteering to process a death in the family.

I love the idea of a pinned thread that would outline all the TOS breaking practices that newbie (and not-so-newbie) authors get unwittingly drawn into. That seems like it would be an incredibly useful resource, and something I would happily direct all new authors I encounter toward. In terms of keeping it updated, kboards always seems to have its finger on the pulse of any changes at Amazon, so I wouldn't have thought that would be a problem.


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## VanessaC (Jan 14, 2017)

Another thank you to the moderators - it's a tough gig.

As a newbie, I also like the idea of a "what NOT to do" thread (ok, there will be a more elegant title) and I'll pop over to Timothy Ellis' thread.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Perhaps a separate thread to discuss what would be in such a thread?


http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=265350


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## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

To those who explained more for me (without inserting a huge "quote" box here) thanks a heap. I knew about much of it, but the box set thing was the key unknown for me. 
I could say "the plot thickens", but it seems to have become seriously cold porridge-like.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Lydniz™ said:


> I'm very sorry for your loss, Betsy. And thanks to all our moderators for doing this thankless task.





MelanieCellier said:


> However, I am so grateful to the mods for the untold volunteer hours they put in to keeping kboards a place where civil discussion can occur. And I am saddened to hear about your loss, Betsy, and definitely think no one should feel guilty for taking time off volunteering to process a death in the family.


Thanks, Lydniz and Melanie! And it's not *really* thankless if y'all thank us for doing it! 

I was starting to feel some withdrawal pains, and feeling guilty that Becca has been on the front lines by herself for so long. Many thanks to Becca for being part of our mod team!!

I don't want to make this thread about me, though. There is a good discussion taking place about what it means to be a community and the goals of the community and how to achieve those goals from both sides, mods and members.

Betsy


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

As a newbie, I love seeing how this thread has evolved. Thanks to She-la for encapsulating stuff I didn't understand and the idea of having sticky threads to help newbies. As always, I do think it's writer beware. Newbies need to do their due diligence too. 

Betsy, I'm sorry about the death in your family. Prayers ascending.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

I'm sorry for your loss, Betsy   

In defense of the mods, since there is a lot of vague references to vendor threads, even popular services that have been recommended in the past can have negative feedback on their vendor threads that aren't pruned or removed. Negative things aren't removed, just stuff that isn't first-hand experience. 

I know when a certain advertiser is mentioned, I point to their Kboards vendor thread as a warning that they might reconsider using them. 

I can only really think of two examples where there is more of a appearance of positive over negative, or where it's been heavily modded. In both of those cases, what was modded was behavior outside of what they were offering service wise (and irrelevant to the thread) or non-first hand experience. It's sticky because we all (should) know the rules for vendor threads specifically, and it is applied across the board, but there is an argument that unrelated behavior does have an indirect affect on the services offered. But ultimately the mods have to make that decision. 

My only real concern at the moment is quite specific, and it's less about warning new authors about someone (though I think that's important. I do think a certain mega thread which I believe is still available serves as a good warning that people can be directed to), but rather the appearance of a withdrawal of support and abandonment of an author currently in a nasty legal battle. Unlike the trademark lawsuits, which had the support of big organizations like RWA as well as being very visible, this author doesn't have that.

All they had really as a voice was this board. And while Kboards needs to keep a more neutral position, closing possible discussion and updates removes the support, both verbally and financially, of an author in a battle of attrition against someone with not only more financial means, but more support (verbal) and a louder voice (which can be used to discredit the other party).

Considering Kboards itself is a factor in this case, and possibly the only reason this author has the means and spirit to fight it, I'm really saddened by the closure of conversation on it. Out of sight, out of mind as they say. 

I implore the mods and owner to possibly reconsider what is allowed and isn't in this case, but ultimately it's their decision, and I can only voice my opinion on it. Which I've done. So I'll shut up now.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I can see both sides of the argument here. I totally understand the wish of KBoards to remain neutral and keep this as a space where things can be discussed seriously without flame wars ensuing. On the other hand, since this is a first port of call for many new authors, it's important that they should be able to find out information that will be directly useful to them. For example, I've seen several people on various threads here argue that naming names helps nobody, because the people in question are already banned. However, some of these people are still operating. One in particular (there may be more similar, who knows?) is capable of being extremely charming and plausible, and to this day is still selling her services and drawing in new customers, who are presumably funding the several frivolous lawsuits she recently threw at people. I think it's important that new KBoarders should have a place where they can find this sort of thing out and reach their own decisions about such operators, without having to send PMs to random people, who might not give them a balanced view. A pinned thread where bare facts are laid out (or even just links to bare facts) would be useful in this respect, IMO.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

HopelessFanatic said:


> My only real concern at the moment is quite specific, and it's less about warning new authors about someone (though I think that's important. I do think a certain mega thread which I believe is still available serves as a good warning that people can be directed to), but rather the appearance of a withdrawal of support and abandonment of an author currently in a nasty legal battle. Unlike the trademark lawsuits, which had the support of big organizations like RWA as well as being very visible, this author doesn't have that.
> 
> All they had really as a voice was this board. And while Kboards needs to keep a more neutral position, closing possible discussion and updates removes the support, both verbally and financially, of an author in a battle of attrition against someone with not only more financial means, but more support (verbal) and a louder voice (which can be used to discredit the other party).
> 
> ...


I have the impression that this issue was what touched off this thread, and I was also shocked and saddened to see this author's support thread locked.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

This is a very convoluted issue for me. I've been defending the mods while villifying the policies they're defending in a private group or two. But I know a number of white hat authors -- some with their fingers directly on the pulse of the bad stuff happening, and who can lend insight and evidence in those areas -- that are swearing off KBoards. The loss of authors with experience and who know the history of this business is especially impactful when it comes to certain issues here. 

Sure, membership has a natural ebb and flow, and most of the folk I hang out with now only visit KB when there's something new, important or (we're all human) train-wrecky happening. I stay here, even though I'm not really so much in the biz of selling any more, mainly because I still have an interest in the community and I don't have a platform of my own to discuss stuff (haven't blogged or tweeted in years, and I have one post on my FB page in the last 1.5 years). I also value my time, and am in a very limited number of FB groups, and have bowed out of a slightly larger number. I know what I say on KB, if it's important, will find its way out to all the other private groups, so I only have to say it once here.

The problem I see with allowing only firsthand reports is that if I'm savvy enough to not use the service in the first place or work with an author or provider because of shady indicators, then I'm never going to be allowed to present what I can deduce about them. Let's take the example of Free Books Service, since Amazon explicitly (well, explicitly for Amazon) said not to use them. Even when a few of us did our level best to try to warn others away after FBS demonstrated their service would indeed put books into the Top 15 on the free list, some folk still weren't convinced because we couldn't offer hard proof of the tactics involved. We could only use deductive reasoning backed by the trends and results we could see and track. So another handful of folk dove in headfirst.

While that discussion was 'mostly' allowed intact, I was warned about using publicly available rank information for those authors who'd announced they'd bought into the service in my attempt to demonstrate why I believed the service was black hat. Well, whose information was I going to use? I certainly wasn't going to jeopardize my account by engaging the service myself. I was also warned that if a service user was happy with their results, I was not to question their feelings about it.

So there was the dilemma of the KBoards Way. Authors praising a black hat service because it delivered results they approved of. Others of us clearly deducing the black hattedness, but unable to naysay the authors who were happy with the service they received because that wasn't being kind or respectful. So more authors getting sucked in. Then Amazon, a couple of weeks later, swooping in with emailed warnings.

As for anonymous reviews of services, IMO, that will only result in the same mis- and dis-information we've seen in some service provider threads in the past. I not only want to know who's saying what about a service, I need to know. If Usedtoposthere says, "I've used Service X, had great results and would use it again," for me, that carries about 1B times the weight of ShadyAuthorWithAHistory saying the same thing. And if Used says to stay away while Shady swears by the service, I know whose advice I'm going with.


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## Aloha (Jun 5, 2018)

A question for the mods: do any of you have access to someone at Amazon, Smashwords, D2D, and all the other publishers to verify why an action such as cancelling an author's account was taken?
If you do not, it seems unfair for you to have to make judgment calls based on what individuals, blogs, or other discussion sites for authors post and is repeated here. If those individuals, blogs, or other discussion sites did not verify with Amazon, Smashwords, D2D, or any other publishers why an action against an author was taken, whatever is said or written is speculation. 
Any moderator for any site should not have to speculate on speculations.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

HopelessFanatic said:



> My only real concern at the moment is quite specific, and it's less about warning new authors about someone (though I think that's important. I do think a certain mega thread which I believe is still available serves as a good warning that people can be directed to), but rather the appearance of a withdrawal of support and abandonment of an author currently in a nasty legal battle. Unlike the trademark lawsuits, which had the support of big organizations like RWA as well as being very visible, this author doesn't have that.
> 
> All they had really as a voice was this board. And while Kboards needs to keep a more neutral position, closing possible discussion and updates removes the support, both verbally and financially, of an author in a battle of attrition against someone with not only more financial means, but more support (verbal) and a louder voice (which can be used to discredit the other party).
> 
> ...


Thank you for speaking on my behalf and saying what I haven't had the energy to say. I'm deeply grateful.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Four pages. And the overriding comment from many is, "What's this about?"

Therein lies the problem. Becca hinted at it on page three. But continuing to discuss the person will get the thread locked and modded. I get it. I was sued for it. 

So, we loop back around. What's this all about?

If a newbie comes here, they won't have a clue about the last two years. Maybe they'll hang on, make friends, and learn about it through the coconut telegraph. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll get sucked into the super-secret groups and get conned into making a poor decision. The person who won't be named does this quite easily.

Am I leaving KBoards? No. Not on your life. I don't post here as much as I used to. I'm kinda busy these days. But my door is always open and I give my advice freely. I could start a few dozen online courses and probably double my income. Others do it. But, that's not me.

Another popular comment has been, "Do the research." 
So, a Newt B. Writer starts digging into the internet trying to find out how to earn money by writing, and do it the right way. Innocent young Newt stumbles upon the website run by Eve L Blackhat. She seems nice, charming, intelligent, and eager to help. For a small fee. Newt B. Writer doesn't know anything about Blackhat's tactics or so-called marketing, because there's no mention of it on probably the biggest forum for writers on the whole interweb.

Harvey loved his gadgets. That's how KBoards started. He also loved people.

I love people, too. My protest is simple. I'll still be around, and I'll play by the rules, because that's the way decent people act. I'll still help those who need guidance and will answer any question anyone asks. If it violates the rules, I'll answer privately.

What I won't do is contribute to neutrality on a subject I am vehemently against. I won't tolerate cheats and bullies, nor those who condone their actions.


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## Glis Moriarty (Jun 20, 2018)

I'm just responding to the "community" issue raised in the thread title.
I have both owned and moderated large forums in the past.

Any successful forum gathers to itself a 'community' of members and contributors that share a particular interest and accept the culture of discourse of the forum. Contributors who don't accept it either leave, change their expectations or have their posts cut (and/or membership rescinded). Day-to-day management is often left to moderators - but they can only moderate. It's not their role to lead.

I think that this forum has an issue because it does not have a leader who is highly active and interested in the matters being discussed. I fully respect the decision "to keep things goin' "  in sad and highly emotional circumstances but active leadership is also needed to take things forward as circumstances change, and I don't sense that here. The moderators do their best, but their role can only be to moderate. And usually controversial leadership decisions are discussed and explained openly by the forum leader(s) not simply passed to moderators to implement.

I see many comments (elsewhere) that posters have left kboards because of restrictions on what can be posted, and I fear that this forum will gradually wither. Eventually someone will establish a large and successful alternative, but that will take some years to do  and new writers will be the worse for the lack of a vibrant kboards that can discuss all issues openly.

I appreciate that this comment may not be welcome here and may be deleted, but equally didn't feel that I could just look the other way.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

I think one issue here is that for the owners, Kboards is a "hobby" (for lack of a better word) or the legacy of their late loved one's hobby. But for many of us, writing and publishing is our profession (whether we make a living at it or not). There are things we discuss here that are vital to our profession, to maintaining its integrity and helping ourselves and others avoid the many pitfalls, but to someone with less skin in the game, these may be battles it's just not worth it to fight. So totally different views and approaches. I don't know what to do about it, except maybe it is time for another forum that is specifically by and for professional authors/indie publishers.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Glis Moriarty said:


> I think that this forum has an issue because it does not have a leader who is highly active and interested in the matters being discussed.


I definitely wouldn't go for a fearless leader at the helm. No gurus, thanks. That would completely change the flavor of the board.

To the matter at hand--did this forum really need the play-by-play drawn-out legal analysis now sealed to further discussion? The only useful takeaway from that whole thing was a warning against (possibly) unscrupulous box set promoters and gaming bestseller lists. The blow-by-blow would have been best shared in a private FB group for those interested. Using a public forum instead invited all sorts of collateral mischief.


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## Glis Moriarty (Jun 20, 2018)

Dpock said:


> I definitely wouldn't go for a fearless leader at the helm. No gurus, thanks. That would completely change the flavor of the board.


I didn't say fearless or guru.
The forum was set up and developed with passion, leadership decisions and active engagement. I've not seen that in Writers' Cafe (I don't know about the rest of kboards), which is why so many posts pressure the moderators.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Dpock said:


> I definitely wouldn't go for a fearless leader at the helm. No gurus, thanks. That would completely change the flavor of the board.
> 
> To the matter at hand--did this forum really need the play-by-play drawn-out legal analysis now sealed to further discussion? The only useful takeaway from that whole thing was a warning against (possibly) unscrupulous box set promoters and gaming bestseller lists. The blow-by-blow would have been best shared in a private FB group for those interested. Using a public forum instead invited all sorts of collateral mischief.


This ignores the actual point of that thread, and it wasn't to teach. It was to lend support. That was the focus. You can agree or disagree about this board being the right forum to offer the ability to show that support, but it wasn't there to serve as a warning or to have any major takeaways. (Other than being sued, even if it ends up being dropped, is costly.)

It might not affect you, but if you were one of the authors countersued based on posts made in this forum, being able to share and get support from other authors who you know and have helped through the years, would have been appreciated.

The case itself isn't just two authors head to head, where the outcome only affects them. It has an impact on at least part of the indie community, maybe all of it indirectly. I believe that is why the thread was allowed open and continued to be modded rather than closed. Because the owner and mods believe that.

Was it really less useful than the sixteenth 'critique my cover and/or blurb' post posted this week?

The fact that you think that this case is about box set shenanigans and gaming the bestseller list tells me you didn't follow that thread. It's not. Even from the beginning, it never was specifically. But the kboards author fighting this is fighting to shine a light on things that do affect the indie community, which newer or less informed authors of the community are hit harder by.

I know for a fact, and personal experience, that if this fight wasn't happening, or hadn't been visible, a lot of damage would have happened to me and friends and associates of mine. How is that not important?

For someone who is interested in wanting names named and warnings given, you're missing the big picture. And that big picture won't be on Kboards. Not out of spite or anything, but to keep within the rules and guidelines set. And that's fine. That wasn't the point of that thread.

The point was to lend support and aid so we, as a community, could lessen the burden on one of the author's shoulders as this continues. I fear, without that support, the weight would be too much. It sure as heck would be for me. And a private FB group isn't the same. It just isn't.

Not everyone will care or even agree. This isn't about Kboards coming together as a whole. But you asked if the forum really needed a play-by-play, and my answer is yes.

Frankly, if you're concerned about bad practices and bad players being revealed and named and such, I wouldn't be so dismissive.

It's what a lot of people are saying and arguing about Kboards being careful about what is said and not said. If you're paying attention or look for it, sometimes you'll be able to see a connection you can follow off these boards for more information. Or more speculation and rumor and drama. I mean it's not always good things you find.

And if you really want information available on this forum specifically, I would have been paying more attention to that thread. A lot of questions I've seen you ask (unless I'm mistaking you for someone else) were mentioned and sometimes linked to in that thread, some of which is public information now elsewhere. Many times those things were removed by the mods, and I'm not arguing against that. It's a thin, very thin line, and I'm arguing it's not those things that slipped in or were removed that was why that thread was important.

I won't speak for Wayne, though I suspect he feels similar to me in this regard, thus this post, but that is why I feel so strongly about it. Not because of any personal takeaways.

(Mods: I apologize if I stepped over the line with any of this in regards to what is okay and not okay to say. I'm not sure exactly where the line is, so I tried to avoid specifics and names. If I misteped with anything, I'm sorry. It was unintentional.)


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## GrahamCrackers (Jun 2, 2018)

Aloha said:


> A question for the mods: do any of you have access to someone at Amazon, Smashwords, D2D, and all the other publishers to verify why an action such as cancelling an author's account was taken?
> If you do not, it seems unfair for you to have to make judgment calls based on what individuals, blogs, or other discussion sites for authors post and is repeated here. If those individuals, blogs, or other discussion sites did not verify with Amazon, Smashwords, D2D, or any other publishers why an action against an author was taken, whatever is said or written is speculation.
> Any moderator for any site should not have to speculate on speculations.


So the problem with this is that statements made by the *banned authors * themselves, stating they were banned from Amazon, in a public (Facebook) setting have been removed and/or moderated.

The other ongoing issue is being currently disputed in a court of law and both parties have made public statements about the litigation; that has been moderated also, despite being straight from the source too.

This isn't people making up stuff for some gratuitous reason. There's nothing to verify. First of all Amazon won't comment, and second of all, people are simply posting direct statements made by the sources. What exactly do you want the mods to verify other than the fact that the statement was in fact made?

So no, factual statements are not unfair, nor are they speculative, in any system that I am aware of.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

A lot of information does get transmitted in private FB groups. A lot of dodgy schemes may get hatched there as well. How does a newbie know which group to join? Comments have been made elsewhere about how an FB group may present only one point of view. I think a newbie has a good chance of being steered wrong if that's all the advice that's available.

I didn't fall into any really destructive groups when I started. However, I did get into one that looked good but that brought unnecessary drama into my life. I found another that had a very positive impact. To a newbie, they seemed good, but their actual impacts were radically different.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Facebook can be even more of a landmine than a public open forum.  I believe there are smaller groups where people know and trust each other and can share useful information, which is all well and good.  That of course is going to tend to be among the more experienced, successful types and not newer people who need more guidance. 

I am part of one of the larger more well-known writer groups on Facebook.  There is a lot of good info and inspirational stuff but it is heavily modded - especially on anything controversial - which in my opinion has led to potentially very misleading impressions of the overall situation in some cases.  Lots of stuff gets deleted with the more "positive" parts left in, so you are left with the impression that most people support certain things where I don't think that's necessarily always the case.  I'm not saying this to bring in stuff from other venues, only to point out to new people that you need to be very careful about writer groups you join wherever they are and watch them over time, because again things do get taken out. 

It's difficult when some stuff is edited out, whether here or anywhere else, because it can really skew what was said or what the overall consensus of members are.  I do appreciate the mods here though for all of the work they do.  I have been a moderator on a very small, closed forum and even there it was nearly impossible.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

HopelessFanatic said:


> Not everyone will care or even agree. This isn't about Kboards coming together as a whole. But you asked if the forum really needed a play-by-play, and my answer is yes.
> 
> Frankly, if you're concerned about bad practices and bad players being revealed and named and such, I wouldn't be so dismissive.


It's not a question of caring or not caring. There isn't an attorney in the world who would advocate for their client to take their case to a public forum on the internet. Not only could it weaken a defense--it could get innocents involved merely for their "public" displays of support.

The mods were not immune to this knowledge.

The takeaway warning and message of this entire saga could have summarized in a single sticky-post at the top of this forum. That's what some people are talking about--a clearing-house post approved by mods warning of the possible dangers involved in indie publishing.


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## GrahamCrackers (Jun 2, 2018)

To add to what JWright said. What if you really don't like or want to use Facebook because of the recent "issues" they have had? They've shared personal data with so many organizations at this point there's no way you're anonymous or can have any expectation of privacy.

Does no one else find it creepy that you can have a voice conversation with someone and then all of a sudden certain advertisements are flashed at you that somehow relate to that conversation?

Actually the more I think about it, the more put off I'm getting at the idea that I should head off into FB world for professional news.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Dpock said:


> It's not a question of caring or not caring. There isn't an attorney in the world who would advocate for their client to take their case to a public forum on the internet. Not only could it weaken a defense--it could get innocents involved merely for their "public" displays of support.
> 
> The mods were not immune to this knowledge.
> 
> The takeaway warning and message of this entire saga could have summarized in a single sticky-post at the top of this forum. That's what some people are talking about--a clearing-house post approved by mods warning of the possible dangers involved in indie publishing.


Nothing posted by the people involved was done so without being run through a lawyer. And most of it was just links to publicly available information. But this completely negates what I said about why the thread was important (to some).

The problem with your suggestion of a something like that being posted is that a) without the lawsuit/case itself, a lot of what is going on would never have come out, and even if it did, the mods have been crystal clear about what subjects can not be talked about and b) there's no guarantee what will end up happening in the lawsuit.

I think the point you are missing is that the takeaway warning and message is not what you think it is. I'm trying not to step over the line, but there are already things out there (that can not be shared on this board so a sticky message won't happen) that wouldn't have been outed had there not been this case. In fact, it wouldn't have happened at all because a lot of it came specifically from someone following that thread and reaching out, and it allowed people who wouldn't normally be associated or know each other to connect.

I think we just see this through different lens because of different experiences and positions.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

GrahamCrackers said:


> To add to what JWright said. What if you really don't like or want to use Facebook because of the recent "issues" they have had? They've shared personal data with so many organizations at this point there's no way you're anonymous or can have any expectation of privacy.
> ***
> Actually the more I think about it, the more put off I'm getting at the idea that I should head off into FB world for professional news.


This is how I feel about it. I didn't chime in with that opinion earlier because it will undoubtedly be blown off: old broad, one book a year isn't serious, etc. I don't have a Facebook account and am not going to. If that affects me adversely, too bad, I'm still not going there.

For those of you who haven't been around for years, though, I'll tell you KBoards _is_ dwindling. It used to be if I came here to check posts in mid-afternoon, there'd be 3 pages of threads with current "Today" posts. Now that's down to a page and a half most days and often one page or less on weekends. I have a long time affection for KBoards and understand the moderating challenges and quandaries, but it seems like that new indie board is also worth a try.


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

ellenoc said:


> For those of you who haven't been around for years, though, I'll tell you KBoards _is_ dwindling. It used to be if I came here to check posts in mid-afternoon, there'd be 3 pages of threads with current "Today" posts. Now that's down to a page and a half most days and often one page or less on weekends.


I've noticed this too and was wondering if it was just my imagination (or that with more experience I find less posts of interest or something). But particularly lately, I've felt like I pop by and there's nothing new.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Unfortunately, a lot of old school style boards are dwindling from my experience - not just writer groups.  It's too bad because I like them so much better than Facebook - those threads are very hard to follow.  When someone replies to a comment up thread you don't even notice it unless you scroll through the whole thing again.  And you get shown random threads in no particular order.  I do use it but I'm not a huge fan.  However, a lot of people are more in tune with it than old style forum boards. 


Kboards can't be everything to all people and I'm not sure naming names is really that useful in a lot of cases.  It's a very tough call.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

HopelessFanatic said:


> Nothing posted by the people involved was done so without being run through a lawyer. And most of it was just links to publicly available information. But this completely negates what I said about why the thread was important (to some).


Thanks for saying this; you have the right of it.

From the beginning I was clear with my attorney that I'd need to be more transparent about the process than she'd prefer most clients to be, and I explained why--because this case wasn't just about me. I'd say more, but don't want to get modded or the thread shut down. Sufficed to say, more hasn't been shared than has.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

I wonder how much of the dwindling is natural attrition. I mean, back when KBoards (KindleBoards) started, self-publishing was new. There were very few places for self-published authors to find and share information. The two other major discussion sites were quite unfriendly to self-published authors. One I dove into anyway, even though I wasn't self-published at the time (and have since left, for the most part), and the other I lurked around and quickly left without interacting. Now, a simple Google search brings up the answer to nearly every question. In fact, on both this board and the other I belonged to, older posters (meaning have been here longer, not age) tend to get a little burned out answering the same questions they answered a decade ago. A common answer on the other board is, "You can Google it as well as I can." (Yeah, no moderators there.)

On the topic of information, I tend to agree with the posters who've pointed out that it's the (black hat) information that's important, more so than the names. The names change (unfortunately) rapidly these days, and it's the naming of names that brings about lawsuits. If newbies know what to look for, as suggested earlier, they'll know when someone is crossing into black hat territory. 

On the topic of the locked thread, my interpretation (which admittedly could be off) was that Becca was overworked and overwhelmed, frustrated that in spite of repeated warnings of what would and would not be allowed, we ("we" meaning KBoards members) continually stepped outside the rules. I don't know if it will remain locked; her last post there didn't feel final to me. But I do know if it's ever unlocked and we truly want it to remain for newbies to see, we'd better follow the rules.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

After reading through a lot of this, the only addition I have to give is that not all new authors instantly are going to be drawn in to some marketing scheme when they are probably concerned more about formatting their book and getting it published in the first place.

I see a lot more questions from newbies on the Amazon KDP forum than I see here, and they're not looking for some black-hatter or service to help them game the system or get top ranks -- they just want to see if they can get their product out there in readable form and make a few sales.

I was writing (and selling) eBooks for three full years before I even heard of KBoards. I never knew about the authors' reddits, or private FB groups, much less heard about them until I came here. FB to me is either useless political rants or cat videos (I prefer the latter). Reddit? I still am trying to figure out what it really is.

Perhaps my own experience is unique, but I would hazard a guess that it is not all_ that _unique.

This forum provides a more in-depth discussion than the Amazon forum, and never having seen any of the other 'forums' aside from the hard to follow reddits I've seen, I think KBoards provides a good service where authors can discuss a lot of issues pertinent to the business of indie publishing.

I understand why certain things are moderated. I don't think the moderation here is heavy handed. I have seen other forums (unrelated to publishing) where moderators will berate posters for discussing something that isn't 100% pertinent to the thread, or they will berate posters who post a question in the wrong sub-forum. I haven't seen any of that here.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JWright said:


> When someone replies to a comment up thread you don't even notice it unless you scroll through the whole thing again.


If you click on the little "new" icon that's next to a topic in the forum topic listing, you will be taken to the first unread post (by you). Then you can read through all the remaining posts you haven't read until you get to the latest post. I use this a LOT.

If you click on "Show unread posts since last visit" at the top of the forum, next to your avatar pic, you'll be shown a list of threads with new posts since the last time you were here.

If you click on "Show new replies to your posts" at the top of the forum, next to your avatar pic, you'll be shown a list of threads that you've posted in that have replies since the last time you were here.

Hope this is helpful in browsing the forum!

Betsy


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Dpock said:


> That's what some people are talking about--a clearing-house post approved by mods warning of the possible dangers involved in indie publishing.


I think it's worth pointing out here that Betsy has given permission for a discussion on how such a post should be done, what should be in it, how it works to submit to it, etc. I set up the discussion thread the other day, but it's not getting any attention. The approach is to document the right way to do things, using that to point out the wrong way, and what to look for to avoid.

 [URL=http://www.kboards.com/index.php]http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=265350[/url]

@Wayne, I'd appreciate your input into the discussion of how to document things in a positive way.

Betsy has opened the door here. It would be a shame to miss the opportunity. There is also the thing that down the track, if we dont do something now, the mods will answer all calls for this sort of thing again, with they gave the opportunity to discuss it, and we didn't.


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> If you click on the little "new" icon that's next to a topic in the forum topic listing, you will be taken to the first unread post (by you). Then you can read through all the remaining posts you haven't read until you get to the latest post. I use this a LOT.
> 
> If you click on "Show unread posts since last visit" at the top of the forum, next to your avatar pic, you'll be shown a list of threads with new posts since the last time you were here.
> 
> ...


I think JWright was referring to Facebook group threads with that comment--and comparing them unfavorably to how easy it is to follow and navigate through the kboards threads  And I'm in complete agreement. It's a lot easier to miss things in a Facebook group than on a forum like this one. I find kboards very easy to navigate.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> If you click on the little "new" icon that's next to a topic in the forum topic listing, you will be taken to the first unread post (by you). Then you can read through all the remaining posts you haven't read until you get to the latest post. I use this a LOT.
> 
> If you click on "Show unread posts since last visit" at the top of the forum, next to your avatar pic, you'll be shown a list of threads with new posts since the last time you were here.
> 
> ...


Thank you Betsy, I was actually referring to how hard it is to read threads on Facebook. It is so much easier in this type of forum, but thank you it is still helpful information. And thank you so much for everything you do here. I do appreciate it.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

MelanieCellier said:


> I think JWright was referring to Facebook group threads with that comment--and comparing them unfavorably to how easy it is to follow and navigate through the kboards threads  And I'm in complete agreement. It's a lot easier to miss things in a Facebook group than on a forum like this one. I find kboards very easy to navigate.


Yes, exactly Melanie! Kboards is quite easy to navigate, but I'm keeping Betsy's tips also.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> If you click on the little "new" icon that's next to a topic in the forum topic listing, you will be taken to the first unread post (by you). Then you can read through all the remaining posts you haven't read until you get to the latest post. I use this a LOT.
> 
> Betsy


Years of coming here, and always searching back for where I was up to -- and HERE it is, how to do it. I feel silly, but very grateful. THANK YOU!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JWright said:


> Thank you Betsy, I was actually referring to how hard it is to read threads on Facebook. It is so much easier in this type of forum, but thank you it is still helpful information. And thank you so much for everything you do here. I do appreciate it.


Ah! Sorry, I misunderstood--and we find that there are always people who don't know how to do this (like TellNotShow ).

I agree about FB!

Betsy


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Yes Betsy, these tricks of the trade are great.  I've been trying them out and other people can learn too.  I like the the button that goes to the last post  in a thread (far right hand side next to the thread on the main page for anyone who doesn't realize).  And then there are all those options next to the reply button  that I didn't really pay attention to before.  It's great. Thanks!


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## OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow (Jun 10, 2018)

TellNotShow said:


> Years of coming here, and always searching back for where I was up to -- and HERE it is, how to do it. I feel silly, but very grateful. THANK YOU!


I'm right there with you. Well everyone has to learn someday.


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## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

That "New" icon is life-changing  Thanks, Betsy. And welcome back.


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

Gabriella West said:


> That "New" icon is life-changing  Thanks, Betsy. And welcome back.


I still remember when I discovered that the New badge was actually a clickable link that takes you to the first post you haven't read. Such a great discovery, haha. (Although it drives me crazy trying to hit just the right spot when I'm looking at the webpage on my phone screen!)


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Another successful moderator thread hijack.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Holy cow, I just clicked on the orange "new" button on a thread I have been reading but never posted in and it took me right to the place I left off at.  Wow, I had no idea.  I thought Betsy meant after my last post, but clearly I didn't read it right.  Okay, sorry for the further derail but this is indeed life-changing.  I'll just tip toe out now and go click on orange "new" buttons.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

TimothyEllis said:


> Another successful moderator thread hijack.


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## VanessaC (Jan 14, 2017)

Gabriella West said:


> That "New" icon is life-changing  Thanks, Betsy. And welcome back.


Seconded!

I love discovering tricks like this - makes navigating so much easier.

(Sorry for the further derail, just so delighted with this!)


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Thoughts, on having followed this thread from the start.

1: I appreciate Wayne's point but don't agree with it. KBoards is what it is, and it is not what it is not. The moderators are trying to keep it from going down a road I agree it shouldn't go down, because that road leads to a kind of permanent divisiveness that will turn this into a different kind of place. Any time I have ever needed or wanted details--names named etc.--I've asked in private and gotten the answer from someone I trusted. 

2: On the subject of our duty to warn people away from services. While I do think there is a historical precedent of it appearing like KBoards was actively endorsing a service (by editing or deleting contrary statements) I don't know that this is still a true thing. But even if it was: the internet is FULL of bad-idea schemes. KBoards is an excellent source of information, but if we fall short in actively warning someone not to try a service... I mean, these aren't children. If someone tells them This is the Thing that will Do It For You and they don't have enough alarms going to make them stop and think, I don't know how much anybody can do about that. I wouldn't hold my banker responsible for my decision to wire funds to a Nigerian Prince, either. Caveat Emptor.

3: On the subject of KBoards changing and dwindling, I agree that a lot of the people who spent a lot of time here don't spend as much time here any longer, but that the reason may have more to do with there being only so few new things under the sun. I've seen the same questions come up dozens of times, and if anything I think it's great that so many of us are willing to answer them dozens of times. In terms of general traffic to this site, if it's reduced I'm more prepared to attribute that to fewer newbies to the industry in general, coupled with more places for those newbies to seek out advice than in the heyday. And of course it's changing. Large communities evolve and change, which is normal. Wayne's concern was that the change he was seeing (I think) was being enforced due to external pressure (the mods) rather than from internal evolution. I don't think that's what's happening either. I think the way we use the Internet has changed and the scams have evolved. 

4: Finally, the moral question of whether 'neutrality' is in fact 'taking sides'. (Because not standing up and calling something a lie when it is a lie, is not neutrality.) I get it, and I agree. But I don't think that's what's happening here, on KBoards. I don't think KBoards has failed to advocate on the side of Wayne's angels. I think KBoards has failed to advocate sufficiently for Wayne's sense what is right. In short.. and Wayne, I love you... I think this is a huge overreaction to a thread being locked.


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## Aloha (Jun 5, 2018)

GeneDoucette said:


> ... I mean, these aren't children. If someone tells them This is the Thing that will Do It For You and they don't have enough alarms going to make them stop and think, I don't know how much anybody can do about that. I wouldn't hold my banker responsible for my decision to wire funds to a Nigerian Prince, either. Caveat Emptor...


Yes


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

***********

Comment removed to protect content and data from the over-reaching TOS of new forum owner VerticalScope.

VerticalScope claims rights to any content posted to this site as theirs to disseminate beyond this site in any way they see fit.

Read the Terms of Service, both before AND after you've registered. At the time of this post, the new, more egregious TOS is available to read only after you've registered.

KBoards was purchased by VerticalScope 7.5 years and 4000 posts after I joined. VerticalScope will not allow that existing content to be permanently deleted, despite the fact I did not and do not agree to granting the new owners the rights to my content. 

***********


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

GeneDoucette said:


> Thoughts, on having followed this thread from the start.
> 
> 1: I appreciate Wayne's point but don't agree with it. KBoards is what it is, and it is not what it is not. The moderators are trying to keep it from going down a road I agree it shouldn't go down, because that road leads to a kind of permanent divisiveness that will turn this into a different kind of place. Any time I have ever needed or wanted details--names named etc.--I've asked in private and gotten the answer from someone I trusted.
> 
> ...


This isn't about Nigerian Princes or childlike authors getting duped for their own good. The authors who had their careers dragged under the bus were well-meaning, highly intelligent and knowledgeable people. More so than a lot of other authors, who also deserve warning and protection.

I don't know the details of everything that's happened here, but if the mods are stopping anyone on here from sharing public warnings about scammers or people out to hurt other authors, then really Kboards isn't supporting the author community in the way a lot of us expect it to be. Yes, we're all here, Kboards has beaten a lot of other forums out to take its place as the hub for authors, although the site isn't the same as it used to be and people are allowed to voice their discontent with the direction its going in. I don't think this is an overreaction; I think it's very brave of Wayne to speak up as there is no instance I can think of where the kboards moderators have made a decision and then changed their mind later because of author / community feedback.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

PhoenixS said:


> When threads come up about people or actions or services connected to blackhat techniques or account terminations, my inbox is often overwhelmed by PMs.


And that is precisely why I often hesitate to ask privately for information, because the last thing we as a community need is for the handful of "go to" people to burn out and leave.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

C Winters said:


> This isn't about Nigerian Princes or childlike authors getting duped for their own good. The authors who had their careers dragged under the bus were well-meaning, highly intelligent and knowledgeable people. More so than a lot of other authors, who also deserve warning and protection.


The point of that section wasn't to disparage the authors in question, it was to ask whether KBoards is (or can be) the place where people are warned and protected. I would argue that this is an unreasonable expectation, for the reasons stated.


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## GrahamCrackers (Jun 2, 2018)

GeneDoucette said:


> ...Caveat Emptor.


Can we just discuss this really quickly. Buyer beware is a very good _starting point_ for everyone, yes.

*However*, for people to beware, they need resources so that they are able to check into something and, as a result, be aware.

Some scams are very sophisticated, that is why there are highly trained cyber security professionals and services out there, and even they can barely keep up with the constant deluge the e-economy has brought about*. Let's face it, your average indie isn't going to have that depth and breadth of specialized knowledge. They may not even know where to begin looking, so they look at one of the most prominent communities on the internet for their profession, and they start to read. For any of us to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Now that may not have been the original intention of this place, but the Writers' Cafe has evolved over time, and like it or not there are certain responsibilities that come with being so prominent. Even if you want to argue that point let's not forget that it's a professional community, and this isn't a zero sum game. Helping and informing one another is to the benefit of us all. I cannot thank some people here enough for all the wisdom and words that they have shared over the years. I've personally dodged something scummy as a direct result of information here in the past also.

The point being: paying it forward, and shining a light on bad actors and bad practice is, to my mind, a key reason I've spent years lurking and now engaging.

* Funny and creepy story to share to make my point about how sophisticated this is all getting.

I received a phone call a few months back purportedly from a local county jail. The message allowed the inmates to insert their name with their own voice at a certain point. Well, needless to say I was a bit concerned when I recognized my actual brother's voice speaking his name, informing me that he was in the jail, despite the fact he should have been on the other coast at the time. I hadn't picked up the call but listened to the voicemail, and concerned I tried to call the jail back at 1am. It turned out that he wasn't there and it couldn't have been him calling me, yet somehow someone had definitely recorded his voice stating his name, and spoofed the call so that originated from the jail. Without some internet resources, I would have fallen hook, line, and sinker for this scam.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

PhoenixS said:


> When threads come up about people or actions or services connected to blackhat techniques or account terminations, my inbox is often overwhelmed by PMs. I'm truly very flattered that KBoarders reach out to me -- as I, in turn, reach out to y'all to get names and confirmations when I don't know the particulars about issues, and am highly appreciative of everyone who answers.
> 
> Still, it would take a sometimes large burden off the person starting a thread about a possible blackhat service or practice, as well as folk such as myself and David Gaughran and others who have become trusted go-to sources. Much as I love the community here, being able to post details publicly once rather than 30 or 40 times individually (because I do try to answer everyone and everything I can) would help with time management. Something I'm sure the mods can understand.


Your comments and the other similar comments here are well taken, but one doesn't necessarily need to know the sordid details to figure out that there are certain techniques that are probably gaming the system and dicey.

I still don't know most of the names involved with the black-hat people who were taken down. But I was able to glean enough info from various threads here on the KB forums to figure out certain things that probably weren't helpful and could risk getting books yanked / accounts scrutinized.

I don't think it would be necessary for _names_ to be named here on KB (as seems to have been suggested in this thread in places) for people to get the info or get the drift that certain things can draw the wrath of the Zon. The _techniques themselves_ were mentioned here and there often enough that guys like me -- who are relatively disconnected from the indie 'world' -- could see that certain methods could end up counter-productive.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

GeneDoucette said:


> The point of that section wasn't to disparage the authors in question, it was to ask whether KBoards is (or can be) the place where people are warned and protected. I would argue that this is an unreasonable expectation, for the reasons stated.


If authors aren't able to warn and protect other authors on kboards, what's the point of it?


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

GrahamCrackers said:


> Can we just discuss this really quickly. Buyer beware is a very good _starting point_ for everyone, yes.
> 
> *However*, for people to beware, they need *honest and trustworthy* resources so that they are able to check into something and, as a result, be aware.
> 
> ...


This!
But, I had to add three words.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

> if the mods are stopping anyone on here from sharing public warnings about scammers or people out to hurt other authors, then really Kboards isn't supporting the author community in the way a lot of us expect it to be.


The mods aren't stopping public warnings. They're attempting to control the manner in which they're shared. I like knowing the names of perpetrators as much as anyone, but I don't need them to get the full gist of a scam. (Plus, one can get the names easily enough elsewhere.) It's quite a leap to state KB isn't supporting the author community. Its caution and strict moderation could be viewed as a means to _continue_ supporting the author community.

_Edited. Please drop me a PM if you have questions, so the thread can remain focused. - Thanks, Becca_


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

Dpock said:


> The mods aren't stopping public warnings. They're attempting to control the manner in which they're shared. I like knowing the names of perpetrators as much as anyone, but I don't need them to get the full gist of a scam. (Plus, one can get the names easily enough elsewhere.) It's quite a leap to state KB isn't supporting the author community. Its caution and strict moderation could be viewed as a means to _continue_ supporting the author community.


If they're stopping Wayne Stinnett from speaking his mind on the forum, then there's something going on. People are forgetting that this used to be the place where everything was shared between authors, but now so many have gone out seeking refuge in the wastelands of facebook private groups, which are closed off to many newcommers. This board has suffered immeasurably from losing those authors, and at no time have I seen anyone come out and apologize or try and make amends on behalf of the forum.

_Edited. Please drop me a PM if you have questions, so the thread can remain focused. - Thanks, Becca_


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

C Winters said:


> If they're stopping Wayne Stinnett from speaking his mind on the forum, then there's something going on. People are forgetting that this used to be the place where everything was shared between authors, but now so many have gone out seeking refuge in the wastelands of facebook private groups, which are closed off to many newcommers. This board has suffered immeasurably from losing those authors, and at no time have I seen anyone come out and apologize or try and make amends on behalf of the forum.


We're six pages deep on Wayne speaking his mind.

Someone who was not Wayne posted something in a thread that's now closed, in which something was shared that was publicly available elsewhere, and because it met the criteria of things not allowed in this forum (as previously stated) it was removed. The right or wrong of that decision (I also disagreed with the decision, for the record) was not a large thing. It was a small thing. What is and has become a large thing is the discussion of what, broadly, this community is and should be.

It already is a place where I can start a thread about a service and ask if anyone used it and if it's considered reputable, and people can comment on whether it is or isn't reputable. That happens now, has happened before, and will happen again in the future. If we need to have a pinned thread where names are named and that naming is heavily sourced, that'd be great.

Wayne's complaint began with a very narrow anger at a specific thread being shut down, and turning that anger into a constructive 'who are we and who should we be' conversation, and that's fine. But let's not get carried away.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

jb1111 said:


> Your comments and the other similar comments here are well taken, but one doesn't necessarily need to know the sordid details to figure out that there are certain techniques that are probably gaming the system and dicey.
> 
> I still don't know most of the names involved with the black-hat people who were taken down. But I was able to glean enough info from various threads here on the KB forums to figure out certain things that probably weren't helpful and could risk getting books yanked / accounts scrutinized.
> 
> I don't think it would be necessary for _names_ to be named here on KB (as seems to have been suggested in this thread in places) for people to get the info or get the drift that certain things can draw the wrath of the Zon. The _techniques themselves_ were mentioned here and there often enough that guys like me -- who are relatively disconnected from the indie 'world' -- could see that certain methods could end up counter-productive.


I'm also one who rarely ever (okay, never) knows who the black-hatter is when these topics come up. They tend to write in genres I don't write in, belong to groups I don't belong to, and be a heck of a lot more socially active online than I am. Sometimes I'm curious enough to Google around and find out (I've recently learned searching terms on Facebook is a great way to find things out). But even without the name, I've certainly learned what the bad behaviors are.

It seems as if there are three - maybe more - main issues here. The first is what role KBoards should play in warning authors about scammy techniques. Although some see the issue as black and white, it seems to me there's a lot of gray. Names or no names, sticky threads or no sticky threads, level of moderation, etc. These topics seem debatable to me.

The second is specifically in regard to the locked thread. It seems to me as if moderation for that thread was above and beyond "normal" moderation at the direction of the owner of the board, presumably due to the fact that not only were several lawsuits and subpoenas filed, but it's also still an ongoing case. The directive from the owner, per posts from the mods, was to keep all discussion related to the lawsuit, because anything beyond that would get deleted or result in a locked thread. Discussion kept going beyond that, and the thread was eventually locked.

The third issue, and one that needs to seriously be considered, is that by locking the thread, there's no longer a central location for offering emotional and financial support to an author who's been fighting a battle on behalf of the indie community. I don't know if starting a new support thread is an option, but I hope it's at least being considered because with the other thread locked, it's sinking quickly and that author still needs support.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

GeneDoucette said:


> The right or wrong of that decision (I also disagreed with the decision, for the record) was not a large thing. It was a small thing.


I assure you, it's not a small thing to me. It's not a small thing for Wayne or many others who have posted in this thread. I suspect it's not a small thing for the many people who have reached out to thank me for taking on this fight.

I have refrained from saying much of what I'd like to in this thread out of fear of getting it locked, but I vehemently object to this characterization. It is not a small thing. If I appears so, it's only because you stand at a distance.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

ChristinaGarner said:


> I assure you, it's not a small thing to me. It's not a small thing for Wayne or many others who have posted in this thread. I suspect it's not a small thing for the many people who have reached out to thank me for taking on this fight.
> 
> I have refrained from saying much of what I'd like to in this thread out of fear of getting it locked, but I vehemently object to this characterization. It is not a small thing. If I appears so, it's only because you stand at a distance.


I understand that perspective. Also for the record, I contributed to your defense financially when I could. I didn't consider the closing of the thread a condemnation of what you're doing or a declaration that you're not supported. I'm sorry that you appear to interpret it that way.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

GrahamCrackers said:


> Can we just discuss this really quickly. Buyer beware is a very good _starting point_ for everyone, yes.
> 
> *However, for people to beware, they need resources so that they are able to check into something and, as a result, be aware.*
> 
> ...


I bolded two of the big reasons a site like Writer Beware exists. To inform writers and warn them about people and organizations working in bad faith. Reading this and other threads makes me think indiedom is overdue for a similar sort of site dedicated to naming names and exposing the bad actors and their practices. WB is generally focused on vanity publishers and traditional publishing and agencies.

Maybe we need something that's more indie-focused, a place where people like PhoenixS can post information in one place as opposed to repeating it 30-40 times every time an email hits the inbox. Building something like that for the better of indies everywhere is probably more constructive than griping about the discussion rules and requests that kboards has made. This is their house, their rules, and we have to respect that. Build a site where such stuff can be talked about and then point a thread on kboards toward it.


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## passerby (Oct 18, 2015)

Since she has run into obstacles on this site, another option might be for Christina to update her Gofundme page. The information she wants to get out to her supporters could be posted there.

Edited to add https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

beccaprice said:


> Granted, I'm not on the forum much these days, but I thought that kboards did support indy authors.


For the most part it does. The problem is that cheaters and scammers are also an unfortunate part of the indy author community and they're supported here as well. KB is "neutral".


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

PhoenixS said:


> When threads come up about people or actions or services connected to blackhat techniques or account terminations, my inbox is often overwhelmed by PMs. I'm truly very flattered that KBoarders reach out to me -- as I, in turn, reach out to y'all to get names and confirmations when I don't know the particulars about issues, and am highly appreciative of everyone who answers.
> 
> Still, it would take a sometimes large burden off the person starting a thread about a possible blackhat service or practice, as well as folk such as myself and David Gaughran and others who have become trusted go-to sources. Much as I love the community here, being able to post details publicly once rather than 30 or 40 times individually (because I do try to answer everyone and everything I can) would help with time management. Something I'm sure the mods can understand.


Maybe an offsite location resembling Writer Beware for indies, that could be linked to and publicized? A website listing facts, not conjecture and hearsay, about companies, pen names and situations to avoid? If KBoards doesn't want to host it, I get that. Nobody wants to expose themselves to litigation--which is sometimes why aggressive litigants win before they even file the lawsuit, but that's another story.

***

Read this AFTER I posted the above, saying the same thing:



Jim Johnson said:


> I bolded two of the big reasons a site like Writer Beware exists. To inform writers and warn them about people and organizations working in bad faith. Reading this and other threads makes me think indiedom is overdue for a similar sort of site dedicated to naming names and exposing the bad actors and their practices. WB is generally focused on vanity publishers and traditional publishing and agencies.
> 
> Maybe we need something that's more indie-focused, a place where people like PhoenixS can post information in one place as opposed to repeating it 30-40 times every time an email hits the inbox. Building something like that for the better of indies everywhere is probably more constructive than griping about the discussion rules and requests that kboards has made. This is their house, their rules, and we have to respect that. Build a site where such stuff can be talked about and then point a thread on kboards toward it.


Seconded.



Shelley K said:


> Not to mention the fact that such a post would do little good if there are going to be people like Voldemort whose names can't be uttered.


Part of the problem is that some people here, mods included, seem to be viewing pen names like real names. They aren't, IMO. Maybe some of the lawyers can chime in with their "this is not legal advice" informed opinions, but I'm going to guess that criticizing someone via a pen name (without outing them or doxxing them personally) is treated much like criticizing a public figure or a corporation.

If we can (factually) slam a corporation, company or firm for bad practices, what's wrong with slamming a pen name, as long as the information is firsthand and demonstrably, objectively true? Otherwise, it seems to me the bad-actor pen name gets to take advantage of a double defense--as a "person" when convenient ("Stalking! Harrassment!), and as a public entity with limited liability when convenient.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Information changes. Names change. Names of promo companies change. People are bought out. Etc, etc, etc. If past information can't be updated or expanded, and is left out to be countered, people can be led to believe something that isn't true. Scams tend to change and evolve. But if publicly available information doesn't change or update, then it's of no use. 

I don't know a solution, honestly. It's just frustrating for me personally, and likely others, not to be able to correct misinformation because it would name names and keeping it generalized isn't helpful. 

I understand the limitations of this board. It is what it is. Like I said, I don't know a solution.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Shelley K said:


> There's been a sincere suggestion for the creation of an informational post or posts that only mods can add to. I'm amazed anyone's entertaining the idea. For an unscrupulous publisher, which do you think is the more likely thing to draw ire and potential lawsuits--a thread with multiple people discussing them and their services where there are opinions allowed on both sides and they can even defend themselves, or a stickied post with warnings no one is allowed to contradict? Not to mention the fact that such a post would do little good if there are going to be people like Voldemort whose names can't be uttered.


You put into words what I couldn't about why the idea seemed off to me.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

HopelessFanatic said:


> Information changes. Names change. Names of promo companies change. People are bought out. Etc, etc, etc. If past information can't be updated or expanded, and is left out to be countered, people can be led to believe something that isn't true. Scams tend to change and evolve. But if publicly available information doesn't change or update, then it's of no use.
> 
> I don't know a solution, honestly. It's just frustrating for me personally, and likely others, not to be able to correct misinformation because it would name names and keeping it generalized isn't helpful.
> 
> I understand the limitations of this board. It is what it is. Like I said, I don't know a solution.


This is how I feel about it as well. I've been wanting to post on this thread again but I don't really know what to say. Like, on one hand, I understand that rules are rules. On the other, I understand the OP's post and his concerns. It doesn't really help to be stripped of the details because then, who do we trust? Before Ms. Garner's case happened, I was going to go with that book promoter, too. Kboards, the information given here, opened my eyes and therefore spared me a buttload of grief. And what about the other authors doing shady stuff in KU/general? They are also on FB and in private groups. How can we avoid them if we don't know who they are? So yeah, I also DO see that benefit.

It's good that we are able to discuss this though. Maybe it's a chance to update Writer Beware or a start a similar site. Because, truthfully, I do want to know what the details are so that I can best avoid working with certain authors and also avoid falling into those scams. And hey, it's good to know HOW these people are gaming the system. We have that info available, yes, but who else are these authors working with? For example, the context of Cockygate blew my mind. I had no idea such author groups existed to write to certain tropes/trends in cycles. No wonder things are so difficult for the average author. We need to know these things are happening because we are investing time, money, and precious resources into our books and businesses. Amazon is a disaster. We can't rely on it because they are their own entity. It's just sad that what started as an opportunity for authors to rebel against the traditional publishing system has turned on itself. Or, at least, it's trying to but we are fighting against that.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

When it comes to naming of names, I think the principle of "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" does apply.

Teach people what to look out for and that who you associate with can reflect on you - professionally and potentially how Amazon or other book selling platforms might treat you now or in the future.

Just as an example, several years ago I was considering submitting something for a box set.  There were no fees involved and as far as I know everything was totally legit about it and I don't think there were any shady promotional things done for it.  I didn't end up submitting anything but looking back now I never even considered that there could be any potential problems.  I didn't think about how the box set might be promoted, or who else might be in it, or any potential downsides or things I should be cautious about at all.  And it honestly didn't seem like other people were thinking about these potential problems either, although they might have been more than I was.  

It just seemed like a great opportunity to help get your name out there to more readers and something fun to do. And box sets still can be awesome, but there are also other things that you do need to be careful about and consider whether it's a box set or any other type of promotion, which is something that didn't seem to be discussed a lot in the past - probably because we hadn't had a bunch of shady stuff surface at that point.

Today, I know more, have seen some of the things that go on, and I realize that who I associate with or what services I use can have potential consequences and to make sure to do my due diligence and for the most part just stick with the very tried and true basics. 

The names and tactics are going to continue to change.  And kboards isn't the only place where information can be shared.  It's also not the only place that has strict rules or does a lot of editing or not allowing certain topics.  There are times when I get frustrated with the moderation, but I also am grateful for the very difficult job the moderators do and I have actually been able to get a lot more information here on certain topics, especially stuffing and trademark issues, than I have in other writer groups. I only belong to a few and none of the small exclusive ones.  

I do hope we can continue to share as much information as possible here in a responsible way without burdening the moderators too much or put the website owner in a difficult position.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

As I said earlier, I've been away from the forum for a while and really wasn't up to date on what had been happening. I'm starting to catch up, and frankly, I was kind of surprised after reading through this thread to then read Becca's lockpost in Christina's thread. From this thread, I assumed that Christina's thread had been perma-locked. But Becca's post does not say that.

I'd ask that everyone take a bit of a breath and let us do our job here in reviewing what's happened and how we're going to handle things going forward. There are a lot of reports and deleted material to review at this point. We're discussing in the smoke filled caves and will post something before too much longer.

There's a reason KBoards has been the place where Indies gather for almost ten years now. We want to do the right thing for our membership going forward. It's always been our goal and always will be.

Peace,

Betsy


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## Kat Faitour (Jun 3, 2016)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> If you click on the little "new" icon that's next to a topic in the forum topic listing, you will be taken to the first unread post (by you). Then you can read through all the remaining posts you haven't read until you get to the latest post. I use this a LOT.
> 
> If you click on "Show unread posts since last visit" at the top of the forum, next to your avatar pic, you'll be shown a list of threads with new posts since the last time you were here.
> 
> ...


Holy smokes! I had no idea! Thanks for the instructions (and so sorry for your recent loss). 
Kat


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

It's very hard to know what is legit and what isn't, especially for newbies. Most of these scammers seem to be honest and well-liked, mainly because discussion otherwise isn't allowed. Many of the black/gray hat tactics aren't known, because discussion about them is limited and since specific details and names one can research aren't allowed, it's going to be hard to warn people off.

One good thing about many of the said black/gray hat tactics is that most newcomers won't be invited into the groups where they are the soup of the day. These things tend to stay with a small group of authors who have studied each other and learned just how close to the line -- or how far over it -- they are willing to go.

Still, you can get involved with promo sites that these groups also use, which may not be doing anything wrong themselves but are being used to get certain results, and be guilty by faint association. I'm not sure there's anything you can do about mistakenly getting caught up in something like a botting scheme, where someone has a service randomly read another author's books in order to hide fraudulent page reads. Even Amazon seems to have realized this was happening to innocent authors, and now they only remove the "page reads", instead of blocking the account (or outright terminating it).

It's easy to say just Google it, but often these things don't show up in searches, simply because everyone is afraid of talking about it due to potential lawsuits. It's happened to people commenting on Christina's thread, who had done nothing but show her support and speak out against a bad actor. Nothing was done against the forum rules, or infringing on anyone's free speech rights, but in the US at least, you can sue anyone for just about anything, just because. Whether the suit would be successful or not doesn't matter, it still costs money to defend yourself.

So I can see the point from both sides, that one needs to name names, but also that it can potentially be a huge mess if it got out of control. And it would be easy for that to happen, because said issues with researching things and also people tend to get overwrought at times and it would take a huge amount of time to vet anything presented to the site.

I've gone back and forth on the subject so many times, and I can't decide what is the best thing to do. I don't want people being hurt by the bad actors, but I also don't want people drawn through the mud and have it turn out to be either a mistake, a grudge gone wrong, or things not being what we thought. At this point, I'm leaning to a warning site being set up by a writer's organization, who would have the funds and people to handle it. Or prove yourself and get invited into a private group where things are discussed behind a wall, thus preventing random people from seeing it. I know, easier said than done.

One thing we can do is write informative posts about the various pitfalls that face indie writers. Keep it to the facts, link to publicly available sources, and hope like heck people will actually read them. In my experience, newbies rarely read the information they should be reading (most notably the Help pages on Amazon, which would answer 99% of their questions).


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## Glis Moriarty (Jun 20, 2018)

she-la-ti-da said:


> I've gone back and forth on the subject so many times, and I can't decide what is the best thing to do. I don't want people being hurt by the bad actors, but I also don't want people drawn through the mud and have it turn out to be either a mistake, a grudge gone wrong, or things not being what we thought.


It should be OK to post known facts or provide links to information on external websites.
It should be OK to post your own experiences.
It should be OK to express support.
It should be OK to post deductions (so long as the factual information underlying the deductions is given).
It should be OK to say that you would or would not do x or y.
It should be OK to ask questions or raise issues.
Ascribing motive to behaviour is best avoided. Judges may do that when summing up. If the facts/behaviours are established prosecution and defence will argue about motive.
If there are two sides to a situation, it is best if both can be presented for people to draw their own conclusions.
Hiding information leads to misinformation.



she-la-ti-da said:


> At this point, I'm leaning to a warning site being set up by a writer's organization, who would have the funds and people to handle it. Or prove yourself and get invited into a private group where things are discussed behind a wall, thus preventing random people from seeing it. I know, easier said than done.


The problem with establishing 'police' is that they become the target for political pressure, kickbacks and bribes especially if other sources of information are squished. 
The problem with behind the wall secrecy is that there is no-one to gainsay those who manage the space.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

It should be okay to do a lot of things, but it isn't so. Forum rules are forum rules. Under the current rules, we aren't allowed to do most of the things you list.

As to having "police", well, that's what happens in society. Someone has to enforce the rules. Whether it's here, or another site, or a closed group or whatever, there are rules and people who enforce them. What I think most of us are debating here is what will cause the least harm, yet allow people to discuss topics that are relevant to our doing business, and how do we get there.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Would a public subreddit dedicated to self-publishing "bewares and background checks" be easier for someone to manage than a whole forum?

Would being on Reddit provide an extra layer of protection from BS litigation threats from bad actors? I'm talking about subpoenaing IDs.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow (Jun 10, 2018)

Naming names just isn't going to happen. For one simple reason, pen names are considered brands. If you come onto a public forum and accuse a business of wrong doing you better have proof and it better be good. Because if you don't your going to be in for a lawsuit. Accusing a business without proof is called slander, if they lose one sale they can file against the site. That's why you don't see public wedsites hosting a list of bad actors. The ones that do address this topic are very careful about who they name and the facts they present. Something that will not happen here. At most you will get a stream of gossip and half formed facts that will devolve into a mud slinging match.

We've all see it on a dozen other forums, if you want, take a look at the sub reddit for LitRpg for an example. Everyone is fighting over there and all about opinions they think are facts. No one has the facts. No one knows whose guilty. No one knows whose innocent. It's the freaking witch trials. And that's not even talking about the innocent that are going to be ruined by it. They are overturning bans ... anyone want to be on the thread that condemns an author only to find out he was innocent? Justice is worth fighting for, access to gossip is not Justice.

We don't know why Amazon takes action. If we don't even know why something happens than we have nothing but gossip. It might be correct, but we'll never know because Amazon doesn't share. I for one, am not going to engage in baseless accusations against other authors. If thats the community your looking for I'll stick to other threads and wait for the lawsuit to roll in.

All communities evolve, life evolves and communities are no exception. But evolution is not putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger. Now, I could be wrong, hell I'm not an attorney and don't play one on T.V. but if the board wants to go down this path I'd invest in some legal counsel before taking the step. And I'd go into it with the knowledge that many of us are fine with leaving outside interests at the door.

For those who are pushing the danger argument to new authors I'd say that the thread of black hat practices addresses this problem. Education raises awareness, not gossip. If we educate our community than they can apply that knowledge outside this place. Name calling, slandering, shaming, do not a better place make. Even when justified, which, yet again, no one knows why these people are being picked off.

I am not so naive as to think the guesses are off the mark ... but I need a hell of a lot more than that to condemn. I need proof. I need facts. I need something from someone not using an anonymous handle. And preferably I want it from the dogs mouth. We should be slow to hurt others, not demand the knives when we walk in the door based on a word of a man we've never met.

As for the locked thread about the lawsuit ... I think its horrible that people are turning against others that have been on the same side for months. I think its doing more damage than any locked thread. When people start demanding things and forgetting the support that unified this board, well I'd be surprised if people didn't pull back. I have friends that have bled for me, those that have given me money when I was starving and a place to stay when I was homeless. We don't always see eye to eye but I'd never forget what they've done for me or tell them they weren't on my side. Seems we're forgetting the people we're dismissing are the ones that have stood by us. I don't know how that's going to play out, but I do know it won't be good.

This started with a call to take a side ... the problem is that when you take a side you make enemies of your allies. I don't think anyone can look at this thread and not be sad for what's already been lost. This is my last post on this thread. I simply have no more to say.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow, have you ever been to Absolute Write's Bewares and Background Checks subforum? How about the SFWA's Writer Beware? Ever heard of Victoria Strauss? How about the late A.C. Crispin?

If you haven't, you should visit Absolute Write and Writer Beware. 

The folks who run Kboards have every right to not want to their forum to be like those sites, but they exist, and it's not unreasonable for people to want something like them for self-publishers.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow said:


> For those who are pushing the danger argument to new authors I'd say that the thread of black hat practices addresses this problem. Education raises awareness, not gossip. If we educate our community than they can apply that knowledge outside this place. Name calling, slandering, shaming, do not a better place make. Even when justified, which, yet again, no one knows why these people are being picked off.
> 
> I am not so naive as to think the guesses are off the mark ... but I need a hell of a lot more than that to condemn. I need proof. I need facts. I need something from someone not using an anonymous handle.


Well said.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

> I think its horrible that people are turning against others that have been on the same side for months. I think its doing more damage than any locked thread. When people start demanding things and forgetting the support that unified this board, well I'd be surprised if people didn't pull back.


I am so confused by this characterization as to wonder if we are reading the same thread. What I have witnessed is respectful conversation on a topic upon which not everyone agrees. I've seen no evidence of anyone making demands nor turning on each other. I see nothing horrible or damaging about this conversation, and if the mods did, I assure they would lock it.

I'm not sure who you are accusing of forgetting support, but I assure you, I am as grateful to the indie community and the people (including the mods) of this board as I have ever been. If expressing my disappointment over a decision is grounds in someone's eyes to withdraw their support of my case, (whether emotional or financial) that is certainly their right, but that is not how I've read the tone of this discussion.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm also disappointed with the current modding policy. I appreciate the mods are in a difficult position but I think that - with the very best of intentions - they have made some bad choices which have had damaging repercussions for the community.

It seems to me that forcing some kind of congeniality is more important than vetting bad actors and protecting members - even when they are pitching their services right here - and that makes me sad. I've had long discussions with them privately about this, over an extended period, but I haven't been able to convince them of my point of view at all. 

Which is a shame, so I'll probably continue to stay away.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2018)

dgaughran said:


> I'm also disappointed with the current modding policy. I appreciate the mods are in a difficult position but I think that - with the very best of intentions - they have made some bad choices which have had damaging repercussions for the community.
> 
> It seems to me that forcing some kind of congeniality is more important than vetting bad actors and protecting members - even when they are pitching their services right here - and that makes me sad. I've had long discussions with them privately about this, over an extended period, but I haven't been able to convince them of my point of view at all.
> 
> Which is a shame, so I'll probably continue to stay away.


Don't worry Dave, most authors here are on your side. Kboards will find themselves in a lot of trouble in the coming months if they continue to shut down prominent voices in our community for the sake of protecting their own hides.


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## Aloha (Jun 5, 2018)

OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow said:


> ...Now, I could be wrong, hell I'm not an attorney and don't play one on T.V. but if the board wants to go down this path I'd invest in some legal counsel before taking the step...


Wise advice.

After writing 5 books but finding no publisher or agent, I did the next book with a vanity publisher, which placed great emphasis on not writing anything derogatory about a real life person because it could be considered libel. A few months later, I stumbled on an article about how the vanity publisher had been sued for libel and lost because of what one of its authors had written.
The first award was for $230,000 in actual damages.

The second award for punitive damages was unspecified.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

C Winters said:


> Don't worry Dave, most authors here are on your side. Kboards will find themselves in a lot of trouble in the coming months if they continue to shut down prominent voices in our community for the sake of protecting their own hides.


I doubt it. Kboards has weathered projections of coming doom for a decade. People come, people go. KBoards goes on.

While I do not agree with allowing someone to build their business through Kboards by allowing unending, glowing, Google-search testimonials while letting them squash honest feedback with cries of "meanies" is right... that's not the only thing that happens here. There's LOT of information both current and historical that benefits this industry far more than this one issue.

Valid businesses have grown from this forum. Scammers have been cut off before they get started. This is a discussion of one element that while mostly historical still has a big impact on the current situation but... it's* not* war on Kboards.

The problem is- how do you allow people to promote their businesses here fairly, without the "be nice" policy blocking the exposure of dangerous behavior after the business is "endorsed" with threads and testimonials? Because it's "nice" but it's not fair to people who come here to learn.

Once someone has built a powerful following, it gets even more dangerous.

*spelling *


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

C Winters said:


> Don't worry Dave, most authors here are on your side. Kboards will find themselves in a lot of trouble in the coming months if they continue to shut down prominent voices in our community for the sake of protecting their own hides.


I don't think it's all _just _about "protecting their own hides."

I can see both sides of it, honestly. On the one hand, I want to know all the names and gory details. I am a terrible judge of character and have a long history of trusting and believing the wrong people. I am exactly the type of author who _needs_ clear warning signs whenever possible.

On the other hand, I've spent some time on a few of those sites that do name names and put up all kinds of warning lists, and you know what? They make mistakes once in a while. And the internet is forever. Once an author has been branded as a cheater or a scammer, that reputation will stick whether it is deserved or not. True, those mistakes may be few and far between, but they happen.

I clashed with a writer on one of those sites who then took it upon herself to add me to all kinds of nasty little lists a few years ago. I got a lot of crap because of that, and seriously considered giving up my pen name to avoid the flood of negativity. It was horrible.

If KBoards starts allowing us to name names and so on, of _course _we'll all start with the best of intentions and highest standards. Of _course_, we'll all do every sort of fact-checking possible. Of course we will. But what happens when one or two people start throwing out names without double-checking, or throwing up names because of a grudge or personal issue? I'm probably being over-cautious here, but I think it's a dangerous road to start down.

I also want to add that the moderation here is the main reason I came to KBoards in the first place. Some of the other forums out there are not moderated and can get downright vicious at times. I feel safe here. Sure, it's frustrating sometimes when we want more info, and I think the mods occasionally go a bit overboard, but I'd rather have that than yet another ugly forum that tears our fellow authors down instead of raising each other up.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> This isn't really about the naming names issue. Maybe that's part of it for some people, but I don't think that's what prompted this thread.


My bad.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Any site would be subject to subpoenas, and legally required to respond. Even Reddit. So that's not a way around this. Perhaps some site hosted outside the US, but even then, they could be gone after by whatever country they're in.

LadyG, you didn't say anything wrong, the topic has strayed over a few different areas during it's multiple pages. I think all these areas are connected, though I believe Wayne's _main_ reason for the thread was the modding and locking of Christina's thread. I could be wrong, but that was my take on it.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Is it time for a paradigm shift?

Like LadyG, I see both sides of the issue. While I'd like Kboards to be a place where people can be warned away from potential bad actors, I understand the desire to avoid legal hassles or flame wars.

One of the things I read online and subsequently confirmed with my attorney was that product reviews are protected speech. While someone could still sue over one, courts have found that statements in reviews, so long as they are reasonably related to the product, are not defamation under the law.

What that means is that Kboards could in theory create a review area for author services. (We already have a yellow pages for that, so it's not an unreasonable leap.) While that would not solve all the problems we currently have, it would be a place for people to report issues they've had with service providers with fewer legal complications.

I'm sure Kboards would want to consult its own legal counsel to verify.

While that wouldn't address every issue, it would provide a place for authors to go and see what past experience people have had with service providers.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

Shelley K said:


> This isn't really about the naming names issue. Maybe that's part of it for some people, but I don't think that's what prompted this thread.


I'm a little confused by this. I think what prompted the thread was the locking of the other thread, which then prompted Wayne to remove his books from his signature and express his belief that KBoards is taking a neutral role when it comes to scammers. He doesn't want to financially support KBoards in doing that, so removed the opportunity for affiliate sales. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

That conversation naturally leads to debating and discussing what role KBoards can/should/will/won't take, and that includes whether or not KBoards will allow the naming of names, linking to other sources, etc.

Right? If not, I've just been talking to myself on this thread, because that's what I thought the topic was.   (Well, one of three, as I mentioned earlier. The locked thread, what role KBoards should/can play, and how to support an author when the original thread has been locked.)


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

Al Stevens said:


> Writer Beware has been outing scammers by name for ten years. I don't know if anyone has sued them, but they were still at it last time I looked.


They were. It lasted a couple of years and was eventually settled. http://www.victoriastrauss.com/2016/03/23/publishamerica-america-star-books-lawsuit-against-writer-beware-settled/

Edit to add: It's also worth mentioning that Writer Beware is a service of Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of American, so they have big backing when something like this happens.


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## CathleenT (Mar 14, 2018)

I haven't spent as much time on Writer Beware as AW, but I think they're a good model for what would happen if the current kboards paradigm shifts.

AW's Bewares, Recommendations, and Background Check subforum names names for a very particular reason--AW is trade-pub focused, and vague warnings simply wouldn't do any good. The whack-a-mole thing seems to exist in full force among unscrupulous agents and publishers, and without specifics, vague warnings are useless. I spent a lot of time there back when I thought I wanted a trade career, and mostly I thought they were helpful. Publishers and agents are welcome to respond and be part of the threads. Sometimes, I thought they were treated on the harsh side, but then, I haven't seen the amount of misery from bad trade deals that others on AW have.

I'd LOVE to have a place like that where I could find out about SP black-hatters, but here's the deal: I can barely keep up with trying to get out three books this year. There's no way I'd start a site like that or even sign up to moderate it. So, saying that someone else should do a whole lot of work so that I can benefit isn't the sort of thing I can do with a straight face.

I appreciate the advantages that already come with AW and kboards. I'd appreciate a new forum that's focused on black-hat SP practices as well. I really love Bill's idea of a separate subforum with reviews of services here on kboards, but since I woudn't be doing the work to make it viable, my opinion here is of limited worth. I mention it only in case others also like the idea, and the kboards mods think it would be worth the extra time and effort to make it worthwhile.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

MClayton said:


> They were. It lasted a couple of years and was eventually settled. http://www.victoriastrauss.com/2016/03/23/publishamerica-america-star-books-lawsuit-against-writer-beware-settled/


Note that it was settled without damages or liability on either side. It appears the only reason it was settled instead of dropped was to avoid a countersuit or recovery of legal fees by the defense. Basically, the suit failed utterly.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I respect and appreciate that people have very personal experiences that inform their opinion on Kboards. I've had my days of frustration, I've taken my breaks.

But I think a position of not a penny will support the board is misguided. This board is bigger than us, and first and foremost, it is here for book readers. So in some ways, to stand up and say "I don't want my book links here" is saying you don't want there to be a place for READERS who love Kindle.

Kboards has been here as early as I can remember. They gave a place for INDIES to promote their books and share their books back when there were few places for our books. If you weren't with a big publisher, there was no Facebook ads. There was no AMS ads (and yeah they did exist back then... for New York only). 

When I was sued, my community stood up. I had the least amount of negative consequences as possible given the situation and I passed along that support every chance I got beyond that. I shared what I fundraised with 2 authors in the same boat. I could NOT have done that wihout our community.

None of us own Kboards. They too have families, and financial situations that are not ours to judge. We've lost Harvey, the man who started this all. And while I understand the hurt of the most recent moderating decisions, I think it completely erases 8+ years of standing behind indie authors. And it forgets that this forum is for readers.

To that end, I know where I stand on the side of right and wrong. I stand with right. I've emotionally, financially, and physically supported the side of right since I got here. 

But I won't remove my buy links from Kboards. And I will continue to donate both to kboards and to various legal funds and fundraisers as I feel called to do so.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> When I was sued, my community stood up.


When you were sued, Wayne stood up.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Actually, I shared my lawyer with Wayne. So careful Myra. You don't know everything.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm not sure what you are implying. 

Wayne stood up for you when you were sued.  He is part of this community. He's still fighting for this community and when things got real, he was there for you, was he not? 

He's still advocating for this community, like he always has.  You included.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I thought you were implying that Wayne funded my lawyer because he and I shared a lawyer. You merely said he stood up for me, which has many implications. I've stood up as well, and I made sure he was "stood up for" too when it was down to the wire and he still needed representation. There was A LOT of stuff that happened in all of that the public didn't need to know or wasn't told.

Going through what I have, I wouldn't wish litigation on anyone. Just trying to get a lawyer to represent you for a "small" torts issue, which everything under millions is more or less considered, in California or anywhere, is HARD. Took me over a week, using every contact I had, including college contacts, just to get some attorneys to call back. You're in a panic that your livelihood is at stake and you get 30 days to find representation and begin a defense.

I do not BLAME any forum for deciding that they do not want a discussion of any topic or subject. And anyone is more than welcome to start their own "indie news blog/forum" source. That was never the mission statement of Kboards, and I think it's unfair to publicly say you wish to punish a community/forum that has supported indie authors even before me or Wayne or many others posting here today even published.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I think that everyone who believes it's okay for the Kboards owners to open themselves to litigation should start their own forum and take on all the risk themselves. That seems to be the fairest solution.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think that everyone who believes it's okay for the Kboards owners to open themselves to litigation should start their own forum and take on all the risk themselves. That seems to be the fairest solution.


It's surreal to see the words in my head posted on a forum by someone other than me.


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think that everyone who believes it's okay for the Kboards owners to open themselves to litigation should start their own forum and take on all the risk themselves. That seems to be the fairest solution.


Sums it up for me, too. I was a lawyer once. I have seen what being involved in litigation can mean in practical, financial and emotional ways. If Mrs Chute chooses not to take that risk, that is her call. The board will still be a valuable resource, and I will remain happy to support it accordingly.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

David VanDyke said:


> Note that it was settled without damages or liability on either side. It appears the only reason it was settled instead of dropped was to avoid a countersuit or recovery of legal fees by the defense. Basically, the suit failed utterly.


I've only emailed with Victoria Strauss a couple of times over the years, so I don't know her well enough to ask, but I'm betting those weren't two of her favorite years. If part of their goal was to stress people financially and emotionally, I imagine they somewhat succeeded at that. Back when I was a practicing psychotherapist I supervised counselors working toward licensure. One of them angered the wrong person, who then filed a complaint with the grievance board. It was an absolutely ridiculous complaint. We used to all have bowls of candy on our desks, and at the end of a session would offer a piece to clients. The angered person stated my student was "bribing" clients with candy. Stupid - waste of time. But it still had to be investigated. It took about four months - a drop in the bucket compared to a legal battle. During those months my student was an emotional wreck. The grievance was obviously thrown out in the end, but the complainant had known it would be. That person's goal was to create a living hell for my student, and in that, she succeeded. Whether a lawsuit is won or lost, valid or not, it takes a toll on the people involved, a point which shouldn't be overlooked.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

Love that our community supports each other, and appreciate the support all of our members have given us for many years.

That being said, not all members have their books in their sigs, for many reasons.  Wayne has been an important member of the community for many years.  (I did have to talk to him a bit at the beginning that the kind of discourse a Marine might be used to having wasn't necessarily appropriate here.  ) Let's keep this discussion on what it means to be a community--a great discussion to have--and not make it about Wayne's decision re his sig.

Thanks!

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Something to keep in mind is that what (I'm pretty sure) prompted this thread directly led to the more strict moderation that has happened in the past year or so. The threat of legal action against the board isn't a hypothetical or abstract in anyway. It's a real danger. 

I said in a different comment that things said here were used against some of those who were sued. It didn't matter if the lawsuit was baseless or not, the information originated here and threads here were used as evidence. 

Naming names is dangerous, especially when it leads to speculation. A certain statement of Amazon has terminated the account of X might seem like it should be allowed. No harm in stating fact. (And I agree the facts aren't causing harm.) But every single time, responses turn to speculation. It's just the nature of people. We are curious. And without anything else being certain, we speculate. 

And that's a nightmare for the mods. Not allowing the naming to begin with means people speculating isn't specifically connected to a named person. Less work for the mods (hopefully). 

I do wish facts, public statements, and statements by people involved or connected were allowed, but those things aren't what puts things at risk. It's what happens after. 

So I understand the mods concern. And there used to be some more flexibility here. We wouldn't have had that box set mega thread if there wasn't. Just following and commenting on it was exhausting, and I could take breaks. It must have been hell for the mods themselves. But they kept it open. They kept it moderated. 

And I personally very much appreciate it. When it mattered, they took the time. And there were unfortunate consequences directed at the board and some of its members as a result. I consider how this thread has gone unlocked, and I haven't noticed heavy moderation, that the mods are taking our words into consideration (all of us. Not just a certain viewpoint, either.) 

So I think it's important to respectfully give those thoughts as long as it is allowed. Wayne did so, I believe, when he started this thread.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

We can't, in my opinion, compare Kboards to Writer Beware and Victoria Strauss, or expect Kboards to do the same thing. WB is backed by the SFWA and Victoria personally looks into and investigates before making statements. 

There isn't an equivalent on Kboards. We have great resources with members like David and Phoenix, who do those deep investigations. They also act on that information, bringing it to the attention of those who can do something about it (if they choose to.) But both of them have no affiliation with Kboards. Kboards is privately owned with a few volunteer mods. It's not the size, financial or otherwise, of SFWA. 

Kboards and Writer Beware are really apples and oranges in something like this.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Divide and conquer, right enough.  This thread will be sweet reading for a certain party.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

HopelessFanatic said:


> We can't, in my opinion, compare Kboards to Writer Beware and Victoria Strauss, or expect Kboards to do the same thing. WB is backed by the SFWA and Victoria personally looks into and investigates before making statements.
> 
> There isn't an equivalent on Kboards. We have great resources with members like David and Phoenix, who do those deep investigations. They also act on that information, bringing it to the attention of those who can do something about it (if they choose to.) But both of them have no direct connection with Kboards. Kboards is privately owned with a few volunteer mods.
> 
> ...


What about Absolute Write's Bewares and Background Checks?


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

thesmallprint said:


> Divide and conquer, right enough. This thread will be sweet reading for a certain party.


"The Russian Strategy"


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Ava Glass said:


> What about Absolute Write's Bewares and Background Checks?


There are a lot more moderators.

Also, the emphasis of AW is traditional publishing. In fact, a lot of people who come here migrated from AW because of the anti-self-publishing bias. The focus on their Bewares and Background Checks is to warn authors about predatory publishers and agents. (Though there is threads about other things.)

I hadn't been to AW in a long time, but I went and checked. Scrolling through a few pages of that forum, nearly all are about publishers and agents. There is no mention of indie authors whose accounts have been terminated, no mention of trademark issues, no mention of possibly scammy service providers who focus on indie publishing, pretty much no mention of the things people want to talk about here.

It's not about individuals. Only companies.

AW is absolutely focused on traditional publishing. Beginner indies are warned from the place.

So they are not taking the risk that Kboards is being asked to take by naming names. They also don't allow speculation. They are the closer to the vendor threads we have here where people can post about their own experiences, good and bad.

I don't know the legal history with AW. (WB was sued). I don't know if AW was.

Keep in mind, their bewares and recommendation board is one board among many. Writer's Cafe is one board among many. It's only a small sub-set of the primary board. Creating something similar would be creating a sub-board of a sub-board with the same small amount of mods.

Still apples and oranges.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

HopelessFanatic said:


> There are a lot more moderators.
> 
> Also, the emphasis of AW is traditional publishing. In fact, a lot of people who come here migrated from AW because of the anti-self-publishing bias. The focus on their Bewares and Background Checks is to warn authors about predatory publishers and agents. (Though there is threads about other things.)
> 
> ...


I should reiterate what I said earlier that the people who run Kboards have every right to not want to be like the Absolute Write forum. It seemed like you were saying a SFWA backed blog is not like a forum.

I believe AW has been sued. ETA:I dunno anymore.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

Ava Glass said:


> What about Absolute Write's Bewares and Background Checks?


I don't know if they were ever actually sued, but I know in 2006 they were threatened with a lawsuit and lost their hosting company as a result, floundering for a while before they found another one. Interestingly, Writer Beware was threatened by the same person at the same time. Victoria Strauss wrote about it: https://accrispin.blogspot.com/2006/05/victoria-strauss-barbara-bauer-show.html


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Ava Glass said:


> I should reiterate what I said earlier that the people who run Kboards have every right to not want to be like the Absolute Write forum. It seemed like you were saying a SFWA backed blog is not like a forum.
> 
> I believe AW has been sued.


I didn't mention AW in my original comment because I didn't know if they did any vetting or anything or how they moderated specifically. I did a little research before answering your question, but not in any depth.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

I seem to remember that back in the day way before the bubble burst on that person who shall remain nameless there was a lot of talk about mean girls, wolf pack mentality, and not good things happening, and I know it was posted here because I wasn't loitering anywhere else at the time. I was looking into those sets and read enough to stay away. So, to me, Kboards saved me a lot of hassle. 

Other resources have been mentioned, and even on one of the biggest FB sites which is behind closed doors, it's now being heavily moderated. I know that newsletter swaps were a bad thing thanks to posts on here and stayed away from them on other avenues. 

I think this site is still a good community to be in. I don't mind being prodded by the mods, or edited when I overstep. because we all let our fingers wander where they shouldn't at times, and I'm getting older and my brain farts at times.

I also think that being dragged into one lawsuit is one more than KBoards deserved when they were trying to do the right thing and support some in the community during difficult times. Logically, if that support hadn;t been there then more people wouldn't have been dragged into the case, but the person would never have gotten so much support. It's a double-edged sword. 

I didn't see the post but I do remember that the tread was only allowed to be about the legal findings and support. 

Community - where rules apply and if we don't stick to them bad things can happen.


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## 864 (Dec 1, 2008)

Dear Kboards,

On the matter of the Garner-Hamilton lawsuit thread, we feel it's important to note that the thread has been in operation for more than a year and has been locked for eight days. As you can see from Becca's locking message, our intention was not necessarily to keep the thread closed permanently, but as things were going, the thread's moderation demands had become too high.

We think there are a lot of ways to think about community. One of them is to understand a community as a group of people who agree to abide by a set of rules for the greater good -- obey traffic signals, even when no cops are around; hold a door for someone whose arms are full; help someone who falls down in front of you. We've all internalized enumerable rules of this sort. They vary somewhat from community to community, but they all serve the same function: keeping life in each community decent, according to the measure of those who live in it.

The rules we've established for KBoards are the ones we believe are best for this community. Yes, they ask people to make sacrifices. Those who have the habit of swearing (Becca, we're looking at you) are asked to hold off; those who like to talk politics are asked to refrain; those who get into arguments on other platforms are asked not to bring them here; and so forth. Each of our rules has been put in place because not having it led to problems in the forum's early days. We know they're not perfect -- because rules never are. If we changed the rules, those new rules would have downsides, just as our current rules do. They'd be different downsides, and they might be felt by different people, but they would surely be there.

We believe communities' rules should be flexible enough to allow for exceptions, and we believe they shouldn't become cemented to the degree that they cannot change. Meta-discussions like this one are great for that reason.

What's not so great is attempts to undercut, evade, or break a community's rules rather than abiding by the ones in place while discussing possible changes. That's what seemed to us to be happening in the lawsuit thread. Becca's closing post mentioned the 150 moderation actions -- that was us pretty much bending over backwards to keep the thread open in the face of repeated rule-breaking. In some cases, this rule-breaking was clearly unintentional, but in other cases, we're not so sure.

The rules for the thread are that 1) updates specifically about the status of the case itself, meaning actions taken by lawyers or judges, are okay; 2) limited fundraising efforts are okay; and 3) expressions of support are okay. We do think we could have and should have articulated these rules more fully on the thread's first page, but after more than a year of repeated explanations, we believe they should've been clear to all.

A recent problem post listed and refuted a number of alleged lies Hamilton posted on Facebook in response to discovery requests. This attempt to refute Hamilton was not an update on the status of the lawsuit. Something like "Rebecca has not yet responded to discovery" would be an allowable update. An earlier problem post linked to material posted elsewhere by another KBoards member. That material laid out a detailed claim that Hamilton spent money frivolously while pursuing her own fundraising effort. This was not an update on the status of the lawsuit. There is no allowable replacement for this post -- it was completely outside the thread's limitations.

In our perception, these posts represented a significant and worrisome escalation in pressure applied to the thread's rules. The thread had functioned reasonably well, albeit with heavy moderation required, for the last year, helping inform members of events in the lawsuit and perhaps helping Christina raise money, but these recent posts put it over the top for us.

In the midst of this thread on community, there was some discussion of using the things you, as writers, have learned to help those new to the business. If you have a specific suggestion that you'd like to share, you are welcome to start a thread to help newbies and the KB author community at large (as Tim did http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,265350.html).

We like to think we provide something of value to the larger indie community, but we do have our own community, culture, and rules here. Those rules can be discussed, and exceptions are made from time to time -- the lawsuit thread was itself such an exception -- but whatever rules we have in place do need to be respected and worked within.

chc, site owner
Betsy the Quilter, moderator and site admin
Ann in Arlington, moderator
Becca Mills, moderator


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## Aloha (Jun 5, 2018)

chc said:


> Dear Kboards,
> 
> On the matter of the Garner-Hamilton lawsuit thread, we feel it's important to note that the thread has been in operation for more than a year and has been locked for eight days. As you can see from Becca's locking message, our intention was not necessarily to keep the thread closed permanently, but as things were going, the thread's moderation demands had become too high.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your patience, endurance, and fairness in what you allow and do not allow here. It means a whole lot more than you may realize.


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## Longtime Lurker (Sep 14, 2016)

chc said:


> chc, site owner
> Betsy the Quilter, moderator and site admin
> Ann in Arlington, moderator
> Becca Mills, moderator


Thank you for keeping this forum going. I know it can't be easy. This longtime lurker appreciates it.


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## 864 (Dec 1, 2008)

Aloha said:


> Thank you for your patience, endurance, and fairness in what you allow and do not allow here. It means a whole lot more than you may realize.


Thank you!


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## 864 (Dec 1, 2008)

Longtime Lurker said:


> Thank you for keeping this forum going. I know it can't be easy. This longtime lurker appreciates it.


Thank you!


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm with the mods. The mods have kicked my butt more than once on this board, but upon reflection I have always found it fair. To be perfectly honest, the world contains a lot of bozos--bozos here on WC, and bozos everywhere. Finding that line between shutting down bozos and allowing free conversation is tough. The WC mods have my trust and if they want to lock a thread, edit posts, whatever, that's good enough for me.


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## 864 (Dec 1, 2008)

John Twipnook said:


> I'm with the mods. The mods have kicked my butt more than once on this board, but upon reflection I have always found it fair. To be perfectly honest, the world contains a lot of bozos--bozos here on WC, and bozos everywhere. Finding that line between shutting down bozos and allowing free conversation is tough. The WC mods have my trust and if they want to lock a thread, edit posts, whatever, that's good enough for me.


I, for one, am very thankful for the mods. <3


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## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

Most of us have webpages and blogs of our own.  If an author feels confident enough about the source of their information and strongly enough about its importance, they can always post that information to their webpage or blog. That individual can then post a link on Kboards where the discussion can be on the general topic -- and not on specific individuals.

I, for one, value the moderation here and greatly appreciate the work that goes into this website. I've posted a few things that, in hindsight, I am quite happy the mods caught.  I've also tried some of the Facebook groups where anything goes and found them lacking; I've since withdrawn from those groups (and felt like I needed a shower after talking to some of the people in them).

I appreciate Wayne's fervor -- and fully agree with his stance on neutrality. That said, you might win a battle but lose the war. I don't see this website as neutral in any way -- I see it as strongly advocating doing things in a moral and legal way. Just because you aren't calling out people by name doesn't mean that you haven't taken a stand. You can point out the existence of immoral or illegal practices without actually discussing the people or specifics involved. 

If this website is successfully sued for slander for even the most minor of statements, chances are good that it will be taken offline. If Kboards no longer exists, it can't help any newbies learn the right way to do things. No Kboards means that the only advocates for "white-hat" publishing will be individual authors and for-profit services.


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## Aloha (Jun 5, 2018)

MissingAlaska said:


> ... I've also tried some of the Facebook groups where anything goes and found them lacking; I've since withdrawn from those groups (and felt like I needed a shower after talking to some of the people in them)...


I have been sprayed in some Facebook groups. Even when all the signs of an attack became obvious ("Uh, why are you turning your back on me like that and raising your tail and aiming your scent glands this direction? Was it something I said?"), I foolishly hung around for too long.

It took a lot of tomato juice to neutralize that kind of written spray's odor.


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## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

I found this very funny.



Aloha said:


> I have been sprayed in some Facebook groups. Even when all the signs of an attack became obvious ("Uh, why are you turning your back on me like that and raising your tail and aiming your scent glands this direction? Was it something I said?"), I foolishly hung around for too long.
> 
> It took a lot of tomato juice to neutralize that kind of written spray's odor.


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## Aloha (Jun 5, 2018)

Mark Dawson said:


> Sums it up for me, too. I was a lawyer once. I have seen what being involved in litigation can mean in practical, financial and emotional ways. If Mrs Chute chooses not to take that risk, that is her call. The board will still be a valuable resource, and I will remain happy to support it accordingly.


England's legal system has been very difficult for me to unravel, even after decades of reading about and watching English courtroom scenes in movies and on _Masterpiece Theater_.
In a libel case back in 1964, novelist Leon Uris was sued for a reference to and description of a real life person in his best-selling fiction epic, _Exodus._ From what I can find on the internet (which is not always factual), the printer of the book settled out of court with the claimant and made a public apology. The book's publisher wound up having to pay about 30,000 pounds in court costs, which is about $1,205,656 in today's dollars.

Did the author, Leon Uris, have to pay the halfpenny in damages that the jury awarded the claimant? (My understanding is that a halfpenny was the coin of least value in England at the time.)


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