# Erotica and Bestiality



## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I'm not actually asking this as a writer. I was reading a shifter romance this week and it seemed as though it was building to human and Unicorn sex! But then it didn't go there. Which got me thinking...

I know there is tentacle sex with aliens, I've heard of Dino-porn (which I assume is sex with dinosaurs?), and I know that you are not allowed sex with real animals. But presumably werewolves etc don't count as real animals? But I've never seen it.


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## Lehane (Apr 7, 2014)

Huh, interesting. In general, shifter romance to me seems to capitalize on the idea of expressing raw animalism, while still staying firmly in the realm of safe human relations. You're right, I've not read much of humans sleeping with the shifted versions of their were companions.

I certainly wouldn't classify human x human form of a were as bestiality. I would, however, be pretty sharply inclined to classify human x were-form as crossing into that territory. Or, at least, dancing merrily in a very murky shade of gray. I guess sentience might play into that. Is the werewolf a total raging animal with no humanity? Or is it just a fluffier version of the main hunk, with all brain matter in good order, maybe even with some telepathic communication going on? The latter could be less animal-y, though it's still...you know. A wolf.

I'm not a member of the furry community myself, but I have quite a few friends who are. Those folks are a prolific and lively bunch, and one popular theme among some communities is "ferals", i.e. normal four legged animals hooking up with anthropomorphic bipedal furries. As far as I could ever tell, the ferals tended to be able to communicate, or the animal connection between the two was heavily emphasized. Or it was a more werewolf type thing, where their normal partner shifted into a four legged version. But those stories have their own platforms and don't really make it to Amazon, I'm sure.

It's weirdly interesting to me, in a totally non-judgmental way, that dinos are on the table. I'm not even totally sure as to how dinosaurs, uh...work.


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## Jash (Apr 4, 2013)

Werewolves don't count as real animals.

If that was the question.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2014)

Animals cannot grant consent. Werewolves can. Unicorns traditionally have always been portrayed with "human" intelligence and cognitive skills (and a history of enjoying the company of virgins...so it isn't exactly a new thing).


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## AnyaWrites (May 16, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Animals cannot grant consent. Werewolves can.


I agree. I usually follow the siren publishing requirements which state, "no bestiality unless it's a sentient being, such as a shape-shifter." So I think it's fine for humans and were/aliens/whatever they are to go hot and heavy in whatever shape and form.

In my books I have scenes where the werewolves are "half-shifted" (still human, but bigger) while having sex with their mate. I've haven't wrote any, but I have read erotica that have the person fully shifted.

I've also written "tentacles" book and sometimes the tentacles are controlled by another person and sometimes they are free for all.

So in answer to your question IMHO I think sex with werewolves wouldn't be considered bestiality.

PS I have no idea what rock I've been hiding on, cause I haven't heard of unicorn porn. Off to search.


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## WordNinja (Jun 26, 2014)

I've read werewolf erotica with the were in wolf form during sex. Won't be reading it again, but it was actually a great story.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

Evenstar said:


> I'm not actually asking this as a writer. I was reading a shifter romance this week and it seemed as though it was building to human and Unicorn sex! But then it didn't go there. Which got me thinking...
> 
> I know there is tentacle sex with aliens, I've heard of Dino-porn (which I assume is sex with dinosaurs?), and I know that you are not allowed sex with real animals. But presumably werewolves etc don't count as real animals? But I've never seen it.


The rule on Amazon is pretty much: If it's a mythical creature, it's not Bestiality. Giving the creature human level intelligence also seems to work. 
Kobo is about the same as Amazon (most of the time), 
Apple is afraid of almost anything adult at all, 
B&N, Smashwords, and the rest of the world don't care what you write.


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## Jash (Apr 4, 2013)

In the past there have been people trying to sneak bestiality under Amazon's radar by dressing it up as shifter erotica. 

It's basically woman has sex with a dog... add a paragraph at the beginning explaining how her husband is a dog shifter, but when he is in dog form he just pretends to be a dumb ol' regular dog because that's how they roll.

They sold surprisingly well, until Amazon pulled the plug on them.


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## Lehane (Apr 7, 2014)

vanstry said:


> The rule on Amazon is pretty much: If it's a mythical creature, it's not Bestiality. *Giving the creature human level intelligence also seems to work*.
> Kobo is about the same as Amazon (most of the time),
> Apple is afraid of almost anything adult at all,
> B&N, Smashwords, and the rest of the world don't care what you write.


Ahhh, so that's the difference. Interesting.


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## Paul Huxley (Feb 27, 2014)

Seeing as vampires are technically the living dead, you can add a whole lot of necrophilia to the list of yuck. In fact person on person erotica can get kinda odd too so why hold back?


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I've seen lots of erotic romance with Were's, but never seen any cross species action. But then maybe it would be strictly in the erotica section?

I can't imagine Amazon being okay with it, as wolves are not strictly mythical are they, only the fact that they can shift into a human as well. So does it only work with creatures that perhaps don't actually exist as regular creatures as well? Like mermaids? Although actually, I have yet to see any mermaid shagging either...

Vampires I have no issue with getting laid, as they are essential human, but zombies? Ick!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'd post a link to some Thomas the Tank Engine - ahem - erotica (hot train-on-train action!) but I fear I'd get cattle prodded.


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## Lehane (Apr 7, 2014)

Evenstar said:


> I can't imagine Amazon being okay with it, as wolves are not strictly mythical are they, only the fact that they can shift into a human as well. So does it only work with creatures that perhaps don't actually exist as regular creatures as well?


It just seems like such a thin line to me, at least from a guidelines perspective. On a grumpy day, Amazon might take down student/teacher erotica even if the student is 18. Will they really look at someone getting it on with a unicorn and go, "nah, that's cool, as long as it's not a horse"?

I'm more impressed/surprised about that element than anything else. I'm glad there's an outlet for people who read the genre.


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

Lydniz said:


> I'd post a link to some Thomas the Tank Engine - ahem - erotica (hot train-on-train action!) but I fear I'd get cattle prodded.


:-D Starlight Express! Flirty trains. It's only a step from there ;-).


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Laurell K Hamilton Anita Blake books later books for anything goes with were's of all flavors, vampires and humans.  There you go Evenstar.  I forget whether there is a 5 or 6 way in there with a threesome in the other room.  I have also forgotten the title of that one.


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

I've read lots of books with the shifter half or fully shifted for sex. It is not bestiality because the character is a shifter, not a beast, and sentient-- consenting. Real animals can't consent or derive pleasure from human sex.

I have a novella with a half shifted couple, never had an issue with it.


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## Miss Library (Jul 8, 2014)

Well, all I can say is that I've definitely learned something new by reading this thread.


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## justagirl (Aug 7, 2013)

I read and write shifted sex - it's certainly not in everything, and even the stories that feature it feature it as only one of the many kinky things my characters get up to  I do warn for it, as well - i.e. "It is considered a dark erotic romance and contains themes that might be objectionable for some readers. These include kidnapping, slavery, and sexual contact with a transformed shifter." I do write some erotica, but more of what I write is considered steamy romance and is not in the erotica category.

Sometimes the acts aren't penetrative sex to save on reader sensibilities, but only other sexual acts. 

I find that it's largely dependent on the character. Some of my shifters are more bestial than the others are - even though they are all man + creature, some of them are men who happen to be creatures occasionally, and some of them are creatures who happen to be men occasionally, and that really does make a difference. 

Although I originally wrote some just for shock value (there've been many things that I've originally written just for shock value, to be honest), I blame fanfic for my introduction to the type  The Supernatural fandom has a lot of bestiality/transformed shifters/sentient creatures, and fabulous story lines (yeah, some of it is just PWP, but some of it is a full blown romance, etc.) *shrug* I find it fascinating. Then again, my scholarly area of study is in animal bridegroom tales, and specifically, how humans relate to the animal world. Especially in a longer romance vs. an erotic short, how does the idea that the human is having sex with a creature impact the story and the characters? Sometimes it's just hot, for lack of a better way to phrase it, but sometimes it effectively functions as a statement on accepting the entire nature of one's lover, finding the "animal within", etc.

As far as sentience and consent... obviously this isn't a problem in werewolf/werefox/were-etc. stories, because they're still human underneath the fur. I doubt that I'll ever try to publish a "true" bestiality story (where the animal is not a mythological creature with sentience or a shifter but is instead your garden variety dog, horse, etc) even if it were able to be easily sold - some things just aren't going to do it for me as a writer. 

I do think that the consent issue is interesting though, particularly if the animal tops.  In that case, I think mythical/extinct creature erotica and animal erotica might sometimes be equal? I haven't given enough thought to it to form an actual argument, but... I mean, like the case of that dude who was killed because he was have sex with a horse and I think the horse went too deep? I don't think you can really say that the horse isn't consenting to the sex, because if he wasn't, well... have you ever been around an angry horse? They could kill you with one strike of hooves, never mind gigantour erections. If they didn't want it, I think the human partner would know before it went that far.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Mythical creatures, monsters, shifters - these are all fine with most publishers. 

Yes, there are a lot of shifter stories with sex in shifted form out there. That's a whole sub-genre called "Knotting".


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## justagirl (Aug 7, 2013)

Actually, knotting isn't a classification for shifted sex, unless you think that any manifestation of the character's "other" side is shifted (longer teeth, ears, long nails, etc.) And many shapeshifters wouldn't knot by virtue of their species. 

Knotting refers to sex where the main character's penis swells to form a "knot" at the base, similar to a dog's or other canine's. Sometimes these characters are shifters, but sometimes they're not (for instance, I write characters who are Alphas and Omegas - the Alpha typically has a knot, and the Omega's rear entrance is designed to accommodate it, but they don't transform into were creatures. Though they could. I mean, shifter romances sometimes include Alpha/Omega dynamics, but you can have those without the furry bits, too.)


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I plan to read through this thread another couple of times then set up in practice as a vet.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

Lydniz said:


> I'd post a link to some Thomas the Tank Engine - ahem - erotica (hot train-on-train action!) but I fear I'd get cattle prodded.


Thomas gets really hot when he's tanked up - resulting in steamy couplings, thrusting pistons and blown gaskets...

I could go on but I don't want to derail the thread!


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## A.C. Nixon (Apr 21, 2011)

Partially shifted sex (i.e. fangs and claws) are ok, but full on shifter and human... 

But I must add, I freaking love the conversations that romance authors have.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

In Lora Leigh's Breed series the heroes have barbs.  . Don't know if they are related to knots. Might need some more research........


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Colin said:


> Thomas gets really hot when he's tanked up - resulting in steamy couplings, thrusting pistons and blown gaskets...
> 
> I could go on but I don't want to derail the thread!


Either you've read it or that was a lucky guess.


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

Atunah said:


> In Lora Leigh's Breed series the heroes have barbs. . Don't know if they are related to knots. Might need some more research........


That sounds like feline shifers. Don't tomcats have barbs?


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

> Thomas gets really hot when he's tanked up - resulting in steamy couplings, thrusting pistons and blown gaskets...
> 
> I could go on but I don't want to derail the thread!





Lydniz said:


> Either you've read it or that was a lucky guess.


Read it? I wrote it!

Train sex is the next big thing!


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

AlixNowarra said:


> That sounds like feline shifers. Don't tomcats have barbs?


They are genetically altered. I'd have to check which of the heroes had the barb. I'll take your word on that info on the tomcats. 

There are heroes altered with feline genetics and there are others animal mixes in the series. Its been a while I read one. I just remember when I read the first and the barb made an appearance and both me and the heroine went like ---->


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## Carina Wilder (Nov 12, 2013)

I remember reading a review of a shifter romance wherein the human form of the man nevertheless (apparently) still had canine-like naughty bits. The reviewer was utterly horrified. 

I laughed.

And yeah, fangs and claws seem fine. But no animal-bits-on-animal-or-human-bits. That's not the fantasy.


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## Miss Library (Jul 8, 2014)

A.C. Nixon said:


> But I must add, I freaking love the conversations that romance authors have.


Right?


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## Lehane (Apr 7, 2014)

Micki23 said:


> Thomas the Tank engine erotica? Hmmm... Well, at least it's not illustrated. As for the pistons and gaskets, what's next? Cars with Lightning McQueen and Sally Carrera? (snort)


I'm so sorry to be the one who has to tell you that such a thing definitely, 100%, absolutely exists.


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

Micki23 said:


> Thomas the Tank engine erotica? Hmmm... Well, at least it's not illustrated. As for the pistons and gaskets, what's next? Cars with Lightning McQueen and Sally Carrera? (snort)


Well, there's KITT adult fanfiction, so who knows :-D.

There's also Transformers fanfiction. I also vaguely recall some Gundam Wing-stories that involved the mechas and not the pilots. Or both.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

May I draw the attention of the panel towards Rule 34 of the internet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_34_(Internet_meme)


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

Lydniz said:


> May I draw the attention of the panel towards Rule 34 of the internet?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_34_(Internet_meme)


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## AnyaWrites (May 16, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> May I draw the attention of the panel towards Rule 34 of the internet?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_34_(Internet_meme)


LOL!


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## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

"Rule 34: If it exists, there is porn of it. If not, start uploading."

I feel like this is the key to untold riches.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

AdrianC said:


> "Rule 34: If it exists, there is porn of it. If not, start uploading."
> 
> I feel like this is the key to untold riches.


You could be right!


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

If the rule about what is acceptable is about consent, I have a related question. Can you have android-human sex? Robot-human sex? If you've programmed the thing to do it, is that non-consensual? Or because it's a machine, does it not matter/consent is implied? (I suppose this is a philosophical question--at what point does an android move from BOB to human and therefore rules about coercion apply?

(This is much more fun to puzzle on than writing the next 2000 words today, btw. lol.)


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Lauranne Dohner has a Cyborg series. First is Burning up Flint. Usually when I see machines in erotica or erotic romance, they are humanoid. Its the age old can AI feel like humans. I see some stuff like that in erotic romance. Been around.


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## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

Of course, you could have an interesting academic debate about the physical/programmed age of said AI's, and what a proper age of consent really is.

Oh good god, there are some many taboo sub-sub-genres you could skirt with AIs, given the dissonance between a reader's psychological perception of it being non-human vs. a robot's nearly perfect (but not too perfect) human appearance. 

Erotica discussions are simply the best. It's easy to not appreciate all the layers involved, and only see the juicy boot knockin'.


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## lostagain (Feb 17, 2014)

Interesting stuff.  I don't think I would have a problem with animal to animal stuff if it were part of the human form to human form sex event.  Especially if they're attaching human emotions to the act and it's not too specific.  But yeah, the full animal to full human thing?  No.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I never understood how the t-rex thing was okay. Dinosaurs are extinct, but they were real.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Micki23 said:


> Androids and robots would be assumed to have AI, so they would be considered sentient beings with a consciousness that extends beyond their original programming.


I don't see any reason you need full AI. _Petrina_ has a robot brothel with clones of famous people controlled by computer; it's not like the people going there are going in search of deep philosophical conversations, they just want a convincing shag.

There's also a remote-controlled dog, but no-one has sex with it. Even the furry-fetishist doesn't go quite that far.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

ProserpinaPress said:


> Knotting refers to sex where the main character's penis swells to form a "knot" at the base, similar to a dog's or other canine's. Sometimes these characters are shifters, but sometimes they're not (for instance, I write characters who are Alphas and Omegas - the Alpha typically has a knot, and the Omega's rear entrance is designed to accommodate it, but they don't transform into were creatures. Though they could. I mean, shifter romances sometimes include Alpha/Omega dynamics, but you can have those without the furry bits, too.)


I knew that. It's being classified and listed more and more as an own sub-genre of shifter/werewolf erotica/eroms. The readers don't care any which way which critters knot. The important point is _that _they knot, similar to that it doesn't matter whether a tentacle porn features a squid, an octopus, an alien or jungle vines. It's the tentacle action they want to read.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

A.C. Nixon said:


> Partially shifted sex (i.e. fangs and claws) are ok, but full on shifter and human...


There's quite a following to that around


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

The whole, 'is this allowed in erotica?' discussion illuminates how ludicrous it is to place limits on what characters can do in a work of fiction. And the idea that a fictional character has to be able to give their 'consent' compounds the insanity.

How about if one of my characters creates a virtually exact animatronic replica of a dog and has sex with that? Would that be ok? Doesn't even having to ask a question like that reveal the absolute foolishness of the corner we've painted ourselves into?

In the repressed environment we write in today, I can't even have one of my fictional characters _think_ about having sex with another fictional character that doesn't meet certain criteria. (I've actually had a book banned because of that.)

Just have to shake my head sometimes.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

swolf said:


> The whole, 'is this allowed in erotica?' discussion illuminates how ludicrous it is to place limits on what characters can do in a work of fiction. And the idea that a fictional character has to be able to give their 'consent' compounds the insanity.
> 
> How about if one of my characters creates a virtually exact animatronic replica of a dog and has sex with that? Would that be ok? Doesn't even having to ask a question like that reveal the absolute foolishness of the corner we've painted ourselves into?
> 
> ...


Fully agree. I live in a country where a 16 year old and a 66 year old can legally copulate as much as they please, as long as there's no dependence between them, yet writing about that is treated like some major crime. By now we're so far that depiction of characters *seemingly* younger than eighteen, but actually either adult or artificial (as in fictional) is treated as if it's childporn. There are bestiality charges carried out on people sending each other funny cartoons depicting sex with the Kellogs Frosties Tiger.

I've seen things only grow worse, not better, and I doubt I'll see the end of this in my lifetime.


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## williamvw (Mar 12, 2012)

Lydniz said:


> I'd post a link to some Thomas the Tank Engine - ahem - erotica (hot train-on-train action!) but I fear I'd get cattle prodded.


My son was into Thomas stuff when he was in the 3-5 range. One of the engines is named Percy, and in one of the episodes Percy gets this load of dirt dumped all over him. My son used to love re-enacting this scene, except he had trouble pronouncing his r's. Nothing quite like having company over and hearing from the next room, "Oh, Percy, you're so dirty!" True story. It's even better if you replay it with George Carlin ad-libbing the narration in your head.


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