# LGBT Authors Support Thread



## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

I've been considering starting this thread for a while. There's a lot of X Support Threads around and I never noticed one for the LGBT authors. 
What better day to start it than National Coming Out Day?

But as an author of LGBT fiction, I often find myself wishing I could connect with my fellows who write works with LGBT characters or LGBT-oriented stories etc. If I feel that way, surely others do as well. I figured we could have a place to chat and talk about the specifics of the LGBT genres, LGBT readers, basically the business of being an LGBT author.  

So if you're an author of LGBT fiction, or an LGBT author, feel free to chime in, ask questions, and support one another.

I have a question that might help to start things off. I've been wondering about all the books I see launching in LGBT Fantasy at 5-6$ that seem to be doing really well. Do you find that we can price higher due to being in a niche market? Someone over on Mark Dawson's Facebook group suggested that my books were underpriced due to being in a niche market that would pay more for them and it got me wondering considering that there are so many books in the top list for LGBT Fantasy that are selling well despite being priced significantly higher than the typical $0.99-$2.99 range for a debut novel/first in series.  Just curious what other people's experience with this is? 

Oh yeah... and in case anyone doesn't know. I write Lesbian Urban Fantasy.  
My wife writes lesbian Space Opera. 
We both put a lot of representation into our work.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

Lesbian romance here. I launched my last at 99 cents and it languished then I went to 299 and it took off. I have ads out but as spoon as they are spent in going to 399 or 499


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

I write LGBT urban fantasy and sci fi. I'm nearly finished with the first novel in a series--only about 10k more words to go--and I have the outlines done for the next two. I'm planning on writing the second novel during November's NANOWRIMO, then I thought I'd release the first in December with book two to come soon after, while I knock out book 3. 

I'm not sure on the pricing question. I always thought I'd set my first at 2.99, but now I'm interested to see the outcome of this question!

Thanks for starting this thread! I'm always glad to meet other LGBT authors.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2015)

My novel, that is currently tanking, has a lesbian character and a bisexual character.  After I think about some possible rewrites on it,  get it re-edited and get a new cover for it, I'll let you know how it does.    I'll also have to properly promote it, which I haven't yet.  My focus has been on other work.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

My LGBT fiction is literary/contemporary, so I don't know about fantasy pricing etc, sorry. My UF has LGBT characters, but the main character/relationship is het, so I don't categorize it since I wouldn't want to be misleading.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> Lesbian romance here. I launched my last at 99 cents and it languished then I went to 299 and it took off. I have ads out but as spoon as they are spent in going to 399 or 499


Ooh, any specific subcat of lesbian romance? I've got a couple paranormal ones drafted but I'm not sure how well they would do.

I also write LGBTQ sci-fi and fantasy, or am thinking about doing so. Have a couple series planned, am trying to figure out where my priorities lie.

I'm also working on a unique LGBTQ NA series with a friend of mine that would basically be an online, interactive thing before being compiled into books.


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

Funny, I just posted earlier today about polishing up and publishing a current WIP as a "practice" book to work out the mistakes that I'm bound to make in self-publishing before jumping in with a full series, and the one I had in mind is a lesbian romance. I've mostly been focused on a series that is M/F romance with historical and paranormal overtones, but when I needed a break from it this summer I started on a F/F "second chances" contemporary romance that I really would like to put out there and see what happens. Very curious what others have experienced in this market.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

I'm in the final editing throes of a first in series about an immortal primarily same-sex attracted race who live in the midst of mortal opposite sex attracted races. There is no romance although a lesbian love story runs through the heart of the story. Once this is published I begin writing book two for NaNovWriMo. It is a fantasy set in an alternate East Asia with the main race modelled on feudal Japan.

I also need to finish my novel from NaNovWriMo 2014 which is about a young lesbian student accidentally coming out to her father, who is a rather conservative Anglican priest.

I have been known on occasions to have straight characters, but I try not to overdo it.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I always have at least one character in my stories that is gay or lesbian, sometimes a side character and sometimes the main character. So, among other genres, some could be listed as gay fiction. I also write gay (m/m) romance under the pen name Sibley Jackson.


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## Shiriluna Nott (Aug 26, 2014)

I write epic fantasy, with both strong LGBT protagonists and side characters. I've had success pricing at both 2.99 and 3.99. Pretty sure I'm going to launch the third book in my series at 2.99 again and maybe raise the price after a few months. Not sure yet though. I really haven't noticed any difference in sales if I price slightly higher. I don't know if I'd go up to 4.99 or higher though. I'm easily intimidated I guess. 

Anyway, hi! I LOVE meeting other authors who write in the LGBT fantasy genre, and I think a support thread is a superb idea.


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## Cap&#039;n Crunch (Aug 10, 2009)

I have quite a few m/m series in several genres: fantasy, contemporary, urban fantasy, sci-fi, and a sort of steampunkish one. One of my bestsellers is the one priced the highest, but even so, it's not higher than $3.99, and it's contemporary. The rest of my series are permafree with $2.99 follow-through on the series. I had a BookBub at the beginning of the month and the tail has been incredible. I've never seen numbers like these and I pray they last a long time! The key for me as been that permafree and the fact I have lots of books in the series. These are full novels, 50k-100k. 

I've dipped my toe into m/f, but it's too early to tell if that's something I should concentrate on. I think you need a full series or at least 3 books in one before readers commit.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Tricia Owens said:


> I have quite a few m/m series in several genres: fantasy, contemporary, urban fantasy, sci-fi, and a sort of steampunkish one. One of my bestsellers is the one priced the highest, but even so, it's not higher than $3.99, and it's contemporary. The rest of my series are permafree with $2.99 follow-through on the series. I had a BookBub at the beginning of the month and the tail has been incredible. I've never seen numbers like these and I pray they last a long time! The key for me as been that permafree and the fact I have lots of books in the series. These are full novels, 50k-100k.
> 
> I've dipped my toe into m/f, but it's too early to tell if that's something I should concentrate on. I think you need a full series or at least 3 books in one before readers commit.


Do you do them under different pen names? I kind of want the freedom to dabble in all sorts of pairs, but due to the lack of crossover between m/f+m/m and f/f, I'm not sure if just grouping them together would work. (Or if it would offend people.)


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## jimjimtk (Oct 7, 2015)

Hi Shei,

Thanks for starting this thread.  I am an author of gay fiction (Gay / Literary / a little Magical Realism thrown into one of my books.)  Anyway, I am new.  I just started publishing in Amazon in April.  And getting my books reviewed is a challenge. I was wondering if anyone knows of good websites for getting reviews for LGBT books, or any other suggestions for getting reviews.

Thanks,
James


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

elizabethsade said:


> Do you do them under different pen names? I kind of want the freedom to dabble in all sorts of pairs, but due to the lack of crossover between m/f+m/m and f/f, I'm not sure if just grouping them together would work. (Or if it would offend people.)


In my current story, I have both a m/m pair and a m/f pair--there are three protagonists in this story. I don't _think_ it will hurt my novel any. Some of the more iconic LGBT-focused television shows have a mix of relationships. _Queer as Folk_ and _Looking_ have m/m and m/f relationships in them. Then there is _How to Get Away With Murder_ that happily displays both types of relationships, often even within the same episode. Of course, that's television and not books. The audiences are a little different. I think today's audiences, though, are a little more open minded and willing to read through both types of relationships. The only time it might really make a difference is if it's erotica and the story is geared toward one specific sexuality over another. If it's a bisexual story, then that likely lends itself to a wider range on the Kinsey scale.

For my novel, I think I'll be able to get away with having both. So far, everything is just the relationships between the characters. I don't even have any sex scenes in this first book, and there aren't many opportunities to put one in without it seeming gratuitous. I suspect that if/when they do happen in the next book, I'll write them up to the moment they stop being meaningful to the story, then fade to black. I'm not a prude by any means, but I want the character's moments together to make sense in the story and to be the payoff to a relationship building up instead of having a sex scene just to get one in.

But I don't know. This will be my first book. What's the consensus on mixing the sexual orientations in the same book?


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## Cap&#039;n Crunch (Aug 10, 2009)

elizabethsade said:


> Do you do them under different pen names? I kind of want the freedom to dabble in all sorts of pairs, but due to the lack of crossover between m/f+m/m and f/f, I'm not sure if just grouping them together would work. (Or if it would offend people.)


Yes, I write the m/m under my own name and the m/f under a pen name. I do have a m/m/f that I left under my own name because it weighed slightly more toward the m/m part of the threesome. I do follow a popular author who writes it all under one name.


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## AixenPixel (May 15, 2015)

Omg I love this thread. My new mystery series deals with a closeted detective fostering a rogue orphan. Ive done other lgbt in other pen names. I wonder how I can contribute to this thread!
I love the lgbt category. Looooove it. Yazzz.


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## Jarmitagetheauthor (Sep 30, 2015)

My books main Characters are lesbian although one of the girls brother has a huge crush on the other girl so it's a bit of a love triangle. It doesn't help that the girl has to have a baby with the guy whilst being in love with his sister. It's a paranormal fantasy story but above all it's a love story.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

I've been building up the side characters in my books, and have plans to release a m/m novel as the fourth book in my Bad Reputation series. Most of the m/m fiction i read are by authors who write both m/f and m/m, so I don't know if it would actually be detrimental. 

With Faithless, my novel about a stripper and a preacher, there was a very important third character, and it was revealed closer to the end, that the three of them were in some kind of relationship. I had a few readers who were taken back by those scenes, but for the most part, they still loved the story. 

Modern audiences are much more accepting, and I've noticed LGBT fiction surging.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

K.B. said:


> I've been building up the side characters in my books, and have plans to release a m/m novel as the fourth book in my Bad Reputation series. Most of the m/m fiction i read are by authors who write both m/f and m/m, so I don't know if it would actually be detrimental.
> 
> With Faithless, my novel about a stripper and a preacher, there was a very important third character, and it was revealed closer to the end, that the three of them were in some kind of relationship. I had a few readers who were taken back by those scenes, but for the most part, they still loved the story.
> 
> Modern audiences are much more accepting, and I've noticed LGBT fiction surging.


The downside is lesbian romance (which is what I'd like to write primarily, while doing some stuff in m/f and m/m) is still less popular than the other pairs, but I have seen more and more LGBT couples getting involved in books that sell better.

If I did write multiple couple types, it would probably end up with a series that contained all types of pairs, with the main thing they have in common being the world they live in. Or it'd be a group of friends, etc. I dunno. So many decisions! I just want to write, not worry about how to market things as much. Alas, the life of an indie...


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

elizabethsade said:


> The downside is lesbian romance (which is what I'd like to write primarily, while doing some stuff in m/f and m/m) is still less popular than the other pairs, but I have seen more and more LGBT couples getting involved in books that sell better.
> 
> If I did write multiple couple types, it would probably end up with a series that contained all types of pairs, with the main thing they have in common being the world they live in. Or it'd be a group of friends, etc. I dunno. So many decisions! I just want to write, not worry about how to market things as much. Alas, the life of an indie...


Yeah, unfortunately, I think readership isn't catching onto f/f as quick as m/m. However, if you're writing a standalone series, where each book could be read separately but they're still connected, I'd personally opt out of splitting the f/f into a pen name.


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Yay!

So, I'm a "straight, white, cis" male but my I've grown up around LGBT persons and I'm a very vocal supporter of LGBT rights. My father is gay (he's from the previous generations where gay men and women married the opposite sex and hid who they truly were thanks to society being far less tolerant back then). My first wife was bisexual. My adult son and adult daughter are both bisexual. Tons of family and friends are LGBT, though these days they are using terms such as "sapiosexual" and "heteroflexible" and such.

The very first review of the very first story I ever published was from someone who claimed it was "gay propaganda to further the gay agenda." I totally thought it was about the fall of humanity after an alien invasion that also had a husband-husband and wife-wife included. I was pretty upset for a while until everyone in my circle who read it said they never even noticed it had "gay stuff" in it.

This made me realize the hard truth that not everyone is going to like what I write, which is a pretty damn good lesson for a noob. The people I associate with on a regular basis didn't point out that the story was "pretty gay" because a m/m or f/f couple is such an integrated aspect in our collective lives that it doesn't stand out (ie: we don't gape at two dudes making out or grab our bibles when two women show up to the courthouse to get married). My wife and I have shed tears more than a few times when we see/read stories about the two old men or women who finally get to be "legally" together after 40+ years of hiding in plain sight.

And since I've discovered the "open relationship" or "polyamorous" crowd, I've had to adjust to the new reality. I guess I always knew there were such things as triads (mmf or mff and now even tff/tmm/tmf/etc). Quads were always "swingers" to me, but now I get to explain how swingers and polyamorous partnerships are very different things (I'm fun at parties as I end up talking about this or my experiences working around the porn industry during my previous career in tech). All these new descriptors like "pansexual" and the intricate webs of poly relationships... there's a ton of stories waiting to be told to an audience who is either in the "lifestyle" or is an ally to those who are part of it.

Fifty Shades made BDSM a mainstream phrase. I have no doubt there will be more than a few of you in this thread who will bring the same attention to these other terms/lifestyles (and I $#@$ guarantee all of you will write something that is actually readable without cringing).

Not all of my stories have LGBT characters. Most usually at least reference LGBT persons or relationships in some way, while some have LGBT persons as main character(s). It doesn't matter whether I write a science fiction story about aliens, time travel, vampires, horror stories, crime fiction stories, drama, romance. In my worlds, humanity has (for the most part) moved past bigotry toward race/gender/sexuality.

If readers don't like that a main character is black, lesbian, and in charge of NASA... well, _*I*_ like it. I write stories for me. I just happen to be lucky enough that once in a while someone else with a brain injury enjoys reading the low-brow fiction I produce.

Right. I apologize for word vomit. It's a good thread. Hopefully I didn't ruin it.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

I've written m/m fanfic mostly in the Harry Potter fandom, m/f fanfic in the X-files, one f/f fanfic, some genderbending and a lot of in between.

I've written an m/m fantasy novel and a couple of m/m erotic romance short stories and I did have a lesbian side character in one of my m/f novels. It just depends on the character. I tend to write everything under one name as I would not be able  to keep up with many different personas 

I've read a lot of fantasy that has lgbtq characters, it seems to be more accepted there in fantasy and sf. There is a fantasy series by Richard Morgan that had three main characters - one was gay, one straight and one lesbian and none of them felt out of place. There were some sex scenes, but it wasn't a romance. So I think perhaps you can mix various orientations on the one book, but I suppose it depends on the reader.

I know I've read some fantasy or sci-fi books where it isn't mentioned that they had any lgbtq characters in the story, so it was a nice surprise as I was reading. But I would read more if I knew beforehand that they were in it  Adding it to the book's description might put some people off, but it could enable more people who actually want it to find it.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> Yeah, unfortunately, I think readership isn't catching onto f/f as quick as m/m. However, if you're writing a standalone series, where each book could be read separately but they're still connected, I'd personally opt out of splitting the f/f into a pen name.


Addressing this specifically, I would never mix FF with anything else. There are some lesbian women who will read anything that appeals, but there's a significant number if not a majority particularly among old school 2nd wavers who want to know they're reading books by and for lesbians. If you start mixing in MM or MF, they'll write you off. And on the other side, I really don't see much crossover from the MM side. So you have a lot to lose and very little to gain.

Addressing the FF market vs. the MM market. FF books are read by lesbians. MM books are read by straight women. They are completely separate markets, not part of a LGBT market. That's the real issue. If you take the good old kinsey 10%, then your audience is 5% of all readers for FF and 50% for MM. I love the genre so I write in it, but it's not something where even a bunch of best sellers are going to let you quit your day job--unless it involves asking if the customer would like fries with that.


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## Cap&#039;n Crunch (Aug 10, 2009)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> I love the genre so I write in it, but it's not something where even a bunch of best sellers are going to let you quit your day job--unless it involves asking if the customer would like fries with that.


Not true


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## Sarah Ettritch (Jan 5, 2012)

All my books except one have at least one lesbian main character. I write science fiction (sociological), fantasy (urban, epic), and mystery (cozy, supernatural). Some of my books have romantic elements, but not all of them.

It's good to see so many authors writing LGBT characters!


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Shei Darksbane said:


> I have a question that might help to start things off. I've been wondering about all the books I see launching in LGBT Fantasy at 5-6$ that seem to be doing really well. Do you find that we can price higher due to being in a niche market? Someone over on Mark Dawson's Facebook group suggested that my books were underpriced due to being in a niche market that would pay more for them and it got me wondering considering that there are so many books in the top list for LGBT Fantasy that are selling well despite being priced significantly higher than the typical $0.99-$2.99 range for a debut novel/first in series. Just curious what other people's experience with this is?


Well, I know most publishers tend to charge in the neighborhood of $6.99 for a gay romance or fantasy novel. Sometimes Amazon drops the price down a bit.

I think the genre can support higher prices from indies than some genres, but only if the work 
1) is findable to its target audience
2) is really enjoyable to its target audience

Now I'm in KU, and I've been slowly building a following for a bit, so I'm not sure how much my experience is everyone's. (I know KU affects reader decisions and visibility.)

The first time I charged $4.99 for a full-length novel I was really nervous. I thought I was going to be laughed off as a fraud and no one would even consider buying it. But they did. It was a 99 cent launch (which I find pretty painful, lol), and when I raised it to full price...it continued to do well. It was a good decision for that book, and since then, I'm not afraid to price full-length, in-KU gay romance at 4.99 (although a cheaper launch price is still helpful).

If you want to charge higher prices than the norm for indies, *do it*. But work on building your audience, and consider the impact of KU and lower launch pricing.

I will add the caveat that I'm seeing more and more 99 cent books in the bestseller list lately. People are trying new things all the time, and competition can be fierce. But personally I'm glad to see readership growth and more reading choices (because I read a lot, too). ;-D

Another caveat: I don't know ought about the lesbian romance market.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

Tricia Owens said:


> Not true


To clarify, my point was about the lesbian romance market, not the MM market. There's tons of money to be made in MM. And I'm basing my FF claims on my experience, not random reports.


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm putting the finishing touches on a paranormal novel with a very strong secondary character who is a lesbian - however, I am still debating as to whether or not I will lean the marketing towards that market. The book itself really doesn't hinge on that whole issue. She just happens to be a lesbian.

And a hit-woman.

Is there a market for LGBT hit-women


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## FadeToBlack (May 8, 2015)

...


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

AngryGames said:


> Right. I apologize for word vomit. It's a good thread. Hopefully I didn't ruin it.


Ruin it? Not at all! I enjoyed reading your experience!


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> FF books are read by lesbians. MM books are read by straight women.


Am I the only one who finds this a real head-scratcher? I'm a "straight" woman. I started reading some LGBT romance for research into the genre this summer. I got through exactly 1 MM romance. I ended up reading pretty much every FF romance on KU that looked remotely readable. More straight women should be reading lesbian romance. Just sayin'.


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## YudronWangmo (Jul 8, 2015)

The protagonist of my current WIP—the second novel in my Buddhist-inspired YA fiction series—is an African-American teen lesbian envoronmental activist. Her romantic life is about 1% of the story. I'm supposedly a lesbian, but I've been single so long I think my lesbian certificate of authenticity has expired.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

YudronWangmo said:


> The protagonist of my current WIP--the second novel in my Buddhist-inspired YA fiction series--is an African-American teen lesbian envoronmental activist. Her romantic life is about 1% of the story. I'm supposedly a lesbian, but I've been single so long I think my lesbian certificate of authenticity has expired.


It's like a credit report. Seven years and it slides off 

I'd definitely put that in teen/LGBT. It sounds great.


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## HMeloche (Jul 6, 2015)

Nicole Carlson said:


> Am I the only one who finds this a real head-scratcher? I'm a "straight" woman. I started reading some LGBT romance for research into the genre this summer. I got through exactly 1 MM romance. I ended up reading pretty much every FF romance on KU that looked remotely readable. More straight women should be reading lesbian romance. Just sayin'.


No, I'm scratching my head too, as a lesbian who started in fandom where MM is the norm. I read MM. I read MF. I read FF on the rare occasion that I can find some that doesn't leave me feeling like it was pasted on. I frankly don't care what the pairing is, I'd just like to see more variety. I'm certainly not anti MM or MF and not turned off by it.

Guess they'll have to revoke my lesbian card.  My wife might be surprised!


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

Shei, thanks for starting this thread!

I write contemporary M/M romance about an all-LGBT soccer/football team in Glasgow, Scotland. The series consists of interconnected stand-alone works with a new couple/HEA in each novel and novella. I'm also writing followup short stories with the couples from each novel.

Since the series features an ensemble cast, I've considered doing a F/F story with one of the prominent lesbian, bi female, or trans characters. So far I've only had one reader request a F/F story, but I think once the series is more established and the audience has become attached to the secondary female characters, they'll want to know more about them. I won't expect to get a huge crossover in general, and I understand it might not sell as well as the M/M works, but I feel like I owe it to the characters to share the love a bit.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Annette_g said:


> I've written m/m fanfic mostly in the Harry Potter fandom, m/f fanfic in the X-files, one f/f fanfic, some genderbending and a lot of in between.


Yay fellow fanficcer! I started writing m/m, mostly in BBC Sherlock, then stopped writing the main pairing and started writing exclusively 'rarepairs' - which included some m/m, some m/m/m, some m/m/f, some f/f, and some f/m. I like a lot of variety in my life, it seems.



Speaker-To-Animals said:


> Addressing this specifically, I would never mix FF with anything else. There are some lesbian women who will read anything that appeals, but there's a significant number if not a majority particularly among old school 2nd wavers who want to know they're reading books by and for lesbians. If you start mixing in MM or MF, they'll write you off. And on the other side, I really don't see much crossover from the MM side. So you have a lot to lose and very little to gain.
> 
> Addressing the FF market vs. the MM market. FF books are read by lesbians. MM books are read by straight women. They are completely separate markets, not part of a LGBT market. That's the real issue. If you take the good old kinsey 10%, then your audience is 5% of all readers for FF and 50% for MM. I love the genre so I write in it, but it's not something where even a bunch of best sellers are going to let you quit your day job--unless it involves asking if the customer would like fries with that.


Yeah I figured it would be like that. :/ I have an NA series in mind with a friend, that will include M/m, m/f, and f/f, but I think NA can get away with it due to the audience it's targeting, whereas older contemporary is likely to skew to a more lesbian audience. I figured right off the bat I'd need to 'supplement' my F/F stuff with M/F or M/M stuff, which actually isn't an entirely bad thing because I like variety.



Nicole Carlson said:


> Am I the only one who finds this a real head-scratcher? I'm a "straight" woman. I started reading some LGBT romance for research into the genre this summer. I got through exactly 1 MM romance. I ended up reading pretty much every FF romance on KU that looked remotely readable. More straight women should be reading lesbian romance. Just sayin'.


Oh, I agree - I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the published M/M stuff I've found. But it's quite possible I just haven't found the stuff that I like yet - it's taken me easily 10 lesbian romance novels that I read the sample of before I found some stuff I liked that didn't go overboard on that 'instant attraction' element (which is something that annoys me). More people in general should read f/f stuff, but there's still a large, large crowd that doesn't - while they would still happily gobble up M/M.



AveryCockburn said:


> Since the series features an ensemble cast, I've considered doing a F/F story with one of the prominent lesbian, bi female, or trans characters. So far I've only had one reader request a F/F story, but I think once the series is more established and the audience has become attached to the secondary female characters, they'll want to know more about them. I won't expect to get a huge crossover in general, and I understand it might not sell as well as the M/M works, but I feel like I owe it to the characters to share the love a bit.


I think it will do better, mostly because you'll have some flexibility in that it's NA and you might have a higher percentage of readers who cross different boundaries? Plus the attachment of the characters will help.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> No, I'm scratching my head too, as a lesbian who started in fandom where MM is the norm. I read MM. I read MF. I read FF on the rare occasion that I can find some that doesn't leave me feeling like it was pasted on. I frankly don't care what the pairing is, I'd just like to see more variety. I'm certainly not anti MM or MF and not turned off by it.


FWIW I agree and read a lot of straight romance. But I'll do things like tweet something about a book I liked and wonder who's reading it and putting an X through my name on their "to read" list. It's definitely getting better, but I still see a lot of the "lesbians by and for lesbians" stuff. Enough that I'd never mix pen names.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

elizabethsade said:


> Oh, I agree - I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the published M/M stuff I've found. But it's quite possible I just haven't found the stuff that I like yet - it's taken me easily 10 lesbian romance novels that I read the sample of before I found some stuff I liked


That's often the case. If you are interested, and search, you'll eventually find authors or genres you like. If you're on Bookbub, you'll see lots of stuff to check out. Also checking the Hot New Release area, or Goodreads for suggestions. If you're not interested, of course, no problem.



> More people in general should read f/f stuff, but there's still a large, large crowd that doesn't - while they would still happily gobble up M/M.


Why should they? Isn't this thread about options and finding your readership and support, rather than "shoulds?" :/


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

HSh said:


> That's often the case. If you are interested, and search, you'll eventually find authors or genres you like. If you're on Bookbub, you'll see lots of stuff to check out. Also checking the Hot New Release area, or Goodreads for suggestions. If you're not interested, of course, no problem.
> 
> Why should they? Isn't this thread about options and finding your readership and support, rather than "shoulds?" :/


I do, I just haven't had much time to read a lot. xD Bookbub is nice for that. I might check out Goodreads, see what they have.

Re: the should...I think, in my opinion, there's a lot more of a societal stigma against F/F stuff than there is against M/M stuff. It's societally okay for women to read stuff about gay men and no one questions their sexuality, but if they read anything with a gay woman in it, or talk about it, people start questioning their sexuality. So most don't. I think one way to find your readership or support is to dismantle the notions that some people hold about same-sex relationships, no matter the genre. -shrugs- That's more what I meant. If there wasn't the societal views about LGBTQ stuff that there are in certain parts of the world, I think the readership would be more broad. So not saying a specific person or type of people 'should', but more there's things that are potentially stopping the readership from expanding. Should was probably a poor choice of words in that sentence.

It works similar ways, for men, I think. (At least the 'if they read the gay people question if they're gay'.)


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## HMeloche (Jul 6, 2015)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> FWIW I agree and read a lot of straight romance. But I'll do things like tweet something about a book I liked and wonder who's reading it and putting an X through my name on their "to read" list. It's definitely getting better, but I still see a lot of the "lesbians by and for lesbians" stuff. Enough that I'd never mix pen names.


As a reader this still baffles me. *sigh* I think this is why I'll never write specifically for that genre. Personally, as a reader first and a lesbian second, I don't WANT to read books "by lesbians for lesbians". I want to read GOOD books, with interesting characters and plot, and the two aren't guaranteed to overlap.

Meh. I guess I'm more of a broader genre reader and writer (as I try to write the books I'd want to read, and one of the focus points may be on a romantic couple but the gender of said romance isn't really the important thing. No coming-out or finding-yourself themes here, please.  Not my cup of tea.)


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

HMeloche said:


> As a reader this still baffles me. *sigh* I think this is why I'll never write specifically for that genre. Personally, as a reader first and a lesbian second, I don't WANT to read books "by lesbians for lesbians". I want to read GOOD books, with interesting characters and plot, and the two aren't guaranteed to overlap.
> 
> Meh. I guess I'm more of a broader genre reader and writer (as I try to write the books I'd want to read, and one of the focus points may be on a romantic couple but the gender of said romance isn't really the important thing. No coming-out or finding-yourself themes here, please.  Not my cup of tea.)


Truth! Changing the gender of a couple only impacts them so much - at their core they're still people and if you make them boring, their sexuality won't matter. I think some writers tend to fall in the trap of making them a lesbian first and a character second, and then the only 'important' thing about them becomes their sexuality.

I have written angsting over sexuality, but like you, I like to write a loooot of variety so I don't get bored with anything. So I'm probably going to end up with a lot of pen names...oops.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Two pages in, and I'm still conflicted over whether this thread is "for me", as a lesbian writer of mostly M/F relationships.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Dragovian said:


> Two pages in, and I'm still conflicted over whether this thread is "for me", as a lesbian writer of mostly M/F relationships.


I would say yes? I'm certainly going to write M/F stuff and I'll probably talk about it here, in addition to my other stuff. I like variety, I like having options.

So welcome.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Dragovian said:


> Two pages in, and I'm still conflicted over whether this thread is "for me", as a lesbian writer of mostly M/F relationships.


Absolutely it's for you! We're not just our sexual orientations. We all have other likes and dislikes that have nothing to do with being LGBT.


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## Madeline_Kirby (Apr 14, 2015)

So last month I went out on a limb and published "Not a Werewolf" - the start of a cozy mystery series where the main character is a young gay man. In all respects it's a typical cozy, with a few paranormal elements, the main character and his love interest just happen to be gay men. The books are set in Houston (where I live), which has a very diverse population, so I have plans for all kinds of characters to come and go.

I got the idea when a friend of mine told me that her cousin (a gay man) was complaining that most of the contemporary "gay fiction" he found seemed to be either erotica or about struggling or coming out, etc. Why, he wondered, could he not find a work of fiction where the main character was dealing with more universal problems or events, and oh, by the way, he just happened to be gay? He wanted to find something to read that he could relate to, without getting bummed out.

It's too soon to tell yet how it will go over, but early reviews are positive and I'm working on the next two books in the series.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

elizabethsade said:


> So not saying a specific person or type of people 'should', but more there's things that are potentially stopping the readership from expanding.


Thanks for explaining. That makes sense. 

I tend to be a bit shirty when told what I should like. It comes, I think, from when I was growing up and the universe seems to want me to know I "should" like M/F and only M/F, of all varieties and lots of heat, and I just wanted to throw up sometimes. It wasn't for me, and I was pretty miserable about it sometimes till I discovered more about myself, and more about the options out there. 

_To those mentioning looking for non-romance: 
_
They're not indie, but a publisher (I've been published through them), Dreamspinner Press (http://www.dreamspinnerpress.com/store/index.php) has added a YA division: 
https://www.dsppublications.com/ (I think this is largely romance but not totally?)
and a non-romance division that focuses more on fantasy, etc., with gay characters: 
https://www.dsppublications.com/

It's not the be-all and end-all of things, of course, just another resource.

Personally, things I don't generally feel like reading are anything about college students or coming out, anything with "first" or "taken" in the title, anything dark and sad about religious families not being accepting, and a long list of other dislikes. That said, there are always exceptions to my rules...


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

HSh said:


> Thanks for explaining. That makes sense.
> 
> I tend to be a bit shirty when told what I should like. It comes, I think, from when I was growing up and the universe seems to want me to know I "should" like M/F and only M/F, of all varieties and lots of heat, and I just wanted to throw up sometimes. It wasn't for me, and I was pretty miserable about it sometimes till I discovered more about myself, and more about the options out there.
> Personally, things I don't generally feel like reading are anything about college students or coming out, anything with "first" or "taken" in the title, anything dark and sad about religious families not being accepting, and a long list of other dislikes. That said, there are always exceptions to my rules...


I also don't like being told what to like, and I think that's one of the reasons I eventually rebelled against mainstream fanfic. I got yelled at by my Mom in a bookstore when I wanted to buy a book that had a lesbian relationship (I think I was 12), so I definitely identify with the being-forced-into-mainstream stuff. I think that was one of the reasons I like Anne McCaffrey's stuff so much - it had main-character heterosexuality, which was in the blurb, but there were lots of side same-sex relationships that weren't mentioned in the blurb.  It got past my mother.

One series I'm working on that's paranormal deals with society not being accepting of relationships, but not due to their sexuality - more due to the 'rules' of the world. (It's set up in a non-werewolf, non-mythical creature soulmate verse. It's basically modern day society but people are born with soulmates.) It's been fun to play with.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Madeline_Kirby said:


> I got the idea when a friend of mine told me that her cousin (a gay man) was complaining that most of the contemporary "gay fiction" he found seemed to be either erotica or about struggling or coming out, etc. Why, he wondered, could he not find a work of fiction where the main character was dealing with more universal problems or events, and oh, by the way, he just happened to be gay? He wanted to find something to read that he could relate to, without getting bummed out.


Well, I can tell you that I'm with your friend's cousin, and I'll look forward to seeing a book where being gay is a character trait and not the defining point of the MC and his story.


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## HMeloche (Jul 6, 2015)

Madeline_Kirby said:


> I got the idea when a friend of mine told me that her cousin (a gay man) was complaining that most of the contemporary "gay fiction" he found seemed to be either erotica or about struggling or coming out, etc. Why, he wondered, could he not find a work of fiction where the main character was dealing with more universal problems or events, and oh, by the way, he just happened to be gay? He wanted to find something to read that he could relate to, without getting bummed out.


This! Yes, exactly - I vastly prefer the "here is the hero doing heroic things and oh, hey, they happen to be gay" model rather than defining characters by their sexuality. The first is what I relate to, the second tends to be either depressing or boring.


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## Robert Dahlen (Apr 27, 2014)

Dragovian said:


> Two pages in, and I'm still conflicted over whether this thread is "for me", as a lesbian writer of mostly M/F relationships.


I'm also conflicted about that, as I'm a straight male writing a fantasy series that has, as a key story arc, a slowly developing F/F relationship between the two main characters. But then again...


HMeloche said:


> This! Yes, exactly - I vastly prefer the "here is the hero doing heroic things and oh, hey, they happen to be gay" model rather than defining characters by their sexuality. The first is what I relate to, the second tends to be either depressing or boring.


[points down to signature and hopes you like adventure fantasy  ]


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Dragovian said:


> Well, I can tell you that I'm with your friend's cousin, and I'll look forward to seeing a book where being gay is a character trait and not the defining point of the MC and his story.


I highly recommend Jonathan Kellerman's best-selling Alex Delaware series. Alex is straight but his LAPD detective buddy Milo Sturgis is gay and in a long-term relationship. I think it was one of the first depictions of a serving US cop who happened to be gay and it did nothing to stop the mega-sales of the Delaware series. Even more startling the book series was launched just as the AIDS pandemic was hitting California hard and LA had no known gay detectives.



> What inspired you to make Milo Sturgis, Delaware's partner in crime solving, a gay homicide detective?
> I wish I could say it was some great sensitivity on my part. I never liked the notion of an amateur detective coming in and showing up the cops. I felt a psychologist who worked with cops was much more plausible. Once I figured that out I knew I had to have a policeman in the story and I wanted to avoid the boring cliché of the gruff, grizzled veteran detective. This was back in 1981 and I knew the LAPD officially had no gay officers. So I thought making Milo gay would create a certain amount of tension. Ironically, one of the guys who wants to be the next police chief here is a gay, Jewish associate chief. That shows how far things have come at the LAPD. But back then a gay homicide detective was a revolutionary concept and certainly played against stereotype. For the same reason I had Delaware's first girlfriend working with power tools while he was the one dealing with emotions. What interests me in the world are the exceptions rather than the norm.


https://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/index.cfm/author_number/256/jonathan-kellerman


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## PDSinger (May 15, 2014)

I'll happily come in and play with you guys. My main work is m/m, and while I write a strong romantic arc, I am generally interested in questions beyond the couple. I'm definitely interested in couple questions beyond the coming out. I've written that and it's done well, but that's certainly not the only thing I want to write. This has resulted in some critical brickbats, but oh well. It's also resulted in in some kudos. My primary readership is female, but I get most of my direct fan mail from the guys, who all seemed surprised I'm female and married to a guy. I suppose it stretches all our boundaries.

Someone upthread mentioned pricing: I launched a book at 99 cents, intending to come roaring out of the gate and then remove the preorder price. That's been happening slower than I'd like: I have to hold off on Amazon until the rest of the slowpokes have populated. (hint: opportunity for an otter shifter book). I price my indie work comparably to my Dreamspinner work, because I put out an equally professional product and I don't want to undercut my other books.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Shei Darksbane said:


> I have a question that might help to start things off. I've been wondering about all the books I see launching in LGBT Fantasy at 5-6$ that seem to be doing really well. Do you find that we can price higher due to being in a niche market? Someone over on Mark Dawson's Facebook group suggested that my books were underpriced due to being in a niche market that would pay more for them and it got me wondering considering that there are so many books in the top list for LGBT Fantasy that are selling well despite being priced significantly higher than the typical $0.99-$2.99 range for a debut novel/first in series. Just curious what other people's experience with this is?


It's funny you ask this. I just launched an Urban Fantasy gay series, and truthfully, I copied your pricing.  It was the first time I've ever written gay fantasy, and I really didn't know what to do. I noticed that a lot of books were priced at $4.99+, and I actually changed my pricing several times a day for the first week, which is a foolish mistake, since I didn't actually give anything long enough to test. I *think* what I'm going to do is keep book 1 at $2.99 and have the rest of the series at $4.99 while they remain in KU. Once I go out of KU, the first will be permafree, the second will be $2.99 and the rest will be $4.99.


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

It does seem that, for whatever reason, books with coming-out struggles or "first-time" themes have the largest audiences. I think many crossover readers from M/F romance are more receptive to familiar narratives. Because of the fight for equal rights, the aspect of LGBT life that the average straight person is most familiar with is The Struggle. Angsty stories pull at heartstrings and awaken readers' sympathy. There's nothing wrong with that.

But while those are important stories to tell, one of the reasons I started writing in this genre was to tell different stories, ones in which being gay is an intrinsic part of who the characters are*, but the biggest issues in their lives are something else entirely: class differences, economic struggles, cultural divides, etc.

Believe me, LGBT fiction has come a looooooooong way. When I first started reading it in the late 90s, everyone always died at the end.  

*No one just "happens to be LGBT" any more than one happens to be a minority of any sort. Sexuality and romantic feelings are a huge part of being human, not to mention the fact that society treats people differently. Obviously not every character needs to be defined by it or angst endlessly over it, but to treat a contemporary (or historical earth) character's sexuality as if it doesn't matter is akin to white-washing.


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## TheLemontree (Sep 12, 2015)

As a bi woman in a very happy monogamous het marriage, I love stumbling across lgbt characters in my reading. 

I'd read more if they were easier to find. Like others have said, I prefer my story arcs in the non romance genres (mysteries, historical fic, steampunkish fantasy/science fic) with the relationships being important but secondary. 

I did recently find one series through either bookbub or ereaderiq (can't remember which). The main character is a forensic archaeologist whose partner is a cop. Both men.  The Luke Littlefield mysteries by Stephen E Stanley. 

I'll happily read m/m, m/f, or f/f.


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## AixenPixel (May 15, 2015)

I already find men hot, so as a female, mm stories make my ovaries implode then explode. Writing it is fun as well! I have a MM space opera romance series in the making!
Men seem  to have very good relationships already (platonic) so to see it as romance or smut or even write it is refreshing from the usual f/m.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

AveryCockburn said:


> *No one just "happens to be LGBT" any more than one happens to be a minority of any sort. Sexuality and romantic feelings are a huge part of being human, not to mention the fact that society treats people differently. Obviously not every character needs to be defined by it or angst endlessly over it, but to treat a contemporary (or historical earth) character's sexuality as if it doesn't matter is akin to white-washing.


If you asked me to describe myself, "Lesbian" doesn't even make the top 5. Possibly not the top 10. If you want to accuse me of straightwashing when I write characters from my own experience, that's your prerogative, of course.


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## HMeloche (Jul 6, 2015)

AveryCockburn said:


> *No one just "happens to be LGBT" any more than one happens to be a minority of any sort. Sexuality and romantic feelings are a huge part of being human, not to mention the fact that society treats people differently. Obviously not every character needs to be defined by it or angst endlessly over it, but to treat a contemporary (or historical earth) character's sexuality as if it doesn't matter is akin to white-washing.


We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one - I find the way it's portrayed in most media which strives to not make it "happens to be LGBT" to be overblown bordering on stereotyping. I enjoy characters where their sexuality is a secondary point to everything else they are to be more enjoyable.

HOWEVER - that said, I read down and find the difference of opinion may stem from "contemporary (or historical earth)" because I don't ever read contemporary fiction if I can help it. Thumbs up for fantasy and sci-fi, where the rules are made up and don't have to conform to the same hum drum we live every day!


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

HMeloche said:


> We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one - I find the way it's portrayed in most media which strives to not make it "happens to be LGBT" to be overblown bordering on stereotyping. I enjoy characters where their sexuality is a secondary point to everything else they are to be more enjoyable.
> 
> HOWEVER - that said, I read down and find the difference of opinion may stem from "contemporary (or historical earth)" because I don't ever read contemporary fiction if I can help it. Thumbs up for fantasy and sci-fi, where the rules are made up and don't have to conform to the same hum drum we live every day!


I actually don't think we disagree. I think we'd both argue that there's a huge middle ground to be explored between stereotyping and straight-washing, and we're both writing stories in that ground. And yes, by specifying "contemporary or historical earth" I was intentionally setting aside sf/f, which has more freedom to explore cultures with different rules.



Dragovian said:


> If you asked me to describe myself, "Lesbian" doesn't even make the top 5. Possibly not the top 10. If you want to accuse me of straightwashing when I write characters from my own experience, that's your prerogative, of course.


Sorry, that was not at all my intention. I said straightwashing occurs when we treat sexuality *as if it doesn't matter*, which is not the same as putting it farther down the list of important characteristics. As I mention above, I think we're all on the same side here, wanting stories that neither stereotype nor straightwash.

I think what really matters is that the characters are true to their worlds.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

AveryCockburn said:


> Sorry, that was not at all my intention. I said straightwashing occurs when we treat sexuality *as if it doesn't matter*, which is not the same as putting it farther down the list of important characteristics. As I mention above, I think we're all on the same side here, wanting stories that neither stereotype nor straightwash.
> 
> I think what really matters is that the characters are true to their worlds.


I think this is just a natural hazard of assuming any kind of universal experience, because if you asked me, I'd describe myself as a female writer, geek, gamer, and cat-owner, who, yes, just happens to be a lesbian. Mileage varies, of course.


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

Dragovian said:


> I think this is just a natural hazard of assuming any kind of universal experience, because if you asked me, I'd describe myself as a female writer, geek, gamer, and cat-owner, who, yes, just happens to be a lesbian. Mileage varies, of course.


Which begs a potentially more interesting discussion--completely aside from genre--about how much of ourselves and our own experiences we put into our characters. There's no right or wrong answer, obviously. When I was younger my fiction was much more autobiographical, but I discovered that having a blessedly boring life meant I needed to start inventing more interesting people pronto.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

AveryCockburn said:


> Which begs a potentially more interesting discussion--completely aside from genre--about how much of ourselves and our own experiences we put into our characters. There's no right or wrong answer, obviously. When I was younger my fiction was much more autobiographical, but I discovered that having a blessedly boring life meant I needed to start inventing more interesting people pronto.


Questions of character development aside, I was responding specifically to


AveryCockburn said:


> *No one just "happens to be LGBT" any more than one happens to be a minority of any sort.


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

Dragovian said:


> Questions of character development aside, I was responding specifically to


I know. I was under the impression we'd moved on after I said "Sorry" and clarified my point. I was neither ignoring nor negating your argument or experience, but rather attempting to steer the discussion in a less contentious direction. I'll step away now. Have a good night.


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## YudronWangmo (Jul 8, 2015)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> It's like a credit report. Seven years and it slides off
> 
> I'd definitely put that in teen/LGBT. It sounds great.


Yeah, the queer accreditation bureau is strict that way.

Thanks for my interest in my quirky books. The first in the series will be out in a few days.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

AveryCockburn said:


> Which begs a potentially more interesting discussion--completely aside from genre--about how much of ourselves and our own experiences we put into our characters. There's no right or wrong answer, obviously.


Personally, I put a lot of myself into my stories, but it's the feelings rather than more concrete details. I rarely use details from my life.

I wrote this in a blog entry once, and I think it still holds true, at least for me:



> Take the things that hurt you, and turn them into stories. Take your deepest pain and tears and the things you've learned the hard way in life, and put them into your stories. It's the hardest and best thing you can do for your writing-to make it deeply personal. Nobody will actually recognize the parts that are about you, but you will always know-and that can make it terrifying to put your work out there. But it can also make your stories matter more and mean more.


I'm generally a fluffy, happy ending sort of writer, because I use my fiction to escape tough things in real life, and to deal with things, sometimes. It's physically and emotionally healthy for me, I think.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Let me bring up another topic I think is useful to any writer, especially of one genre.

SERIES

I think it's one of the best think you can do for your writing career, to have a universe or set of characters or friends you publish several stories about.  

It gives you so many more chances to get visibility and find people who want to read your stuff.  If you have a successful promo for one of the stories, you can find a bunch of new readers who might just go and read every other story in the series.  And readers like series stories, too, especially if they can stand alone.  (At least that's my impression.)

I wrote some gay romance steampunk mystery stuff, and let's face it, that's not a hugely sought after genre.    But because I was enjoying myself, I wrote several stories in that world, some with the same characters, and linked them.  It did much better as a series--and still has a chance to do well again if I ever add more to the series or promote it heavily.

It's something to think about.  :-D


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

Briteka said:


> It's funny you ask this. I just launched an Urban Fantasy gay series, and truthfully, I copied your pricing.  It was the first time I've ever written gay fantasy, and I really didn't know what to do. I noticed that a lot of books were priced at $4.99+, and I actually changed my pricing several times a day for the first week, which is a foolish mistake, since I didn't actually give anything long enough to test. I *think* what I'm going to do is keep book 1 at $2.99 and have the rest of the series at $4.99 while they remain in KU. Once I go out of KU, the first will be permafree, the second will be $2.99 and the rest will be $4.99.


Holy crap really?? Someone copied me?  
I'm just going to flip out for a moment over that. lol. That must mean it at least LOOKS like I know what I'm doing! 
I do my best to take advice from people here who are doing well and then just do what they do on pricing and marketing etc.
There was a time when I was deciding my final launch price and I was so torn between launching book1 at 99c and 2.99. I had read advice from four people I highly respected on this board who all wrote either in my genre (well UF, not gay) or close. 
I finally decided to go with the advice of the one of them who had the most success herself. Just because something had to decide it for me...and well, she WAS doing the best for herself, so I followed her plan.  Beyond that, it was kinda what wifey and I wanted to do.. going with 2.99 for launch. It worked surprisingly well and Awakened stuck high in LGBT fantasy ever since. I promote to 99c when it starts slipping, and I keep it up as high as possible. 

For the rest, I've started pushing stuff higher. Hunted is 3.99 now and it hasn't slowed from its sales levels during the 2.99 pricing.

Anyway, I do think this strategy works. I just can't help wondering if higher prices also work since I see so much of that in the toplist.

To answer a few other things that have come up here:

1. Yes, LGBT authors who don't write it are welcome here 
2. I am proof that F/F has a market and can sell well. I think maybe what I'm writing is specifically a thing people want to see more of: Good stories. And oh look, the MC is a lesbian and has a lesbian love interest. Not "Oh and then the lesbians go back to their boyfriends" or "And there's a lesbian, no really, she's there. We never show her with a girl, but she's there." Or just erotica. Or such. I know I wanted these kinds of stories where the main character just happens to be a lesbian and so I'm writing that, and it turns out that I'm not the only person who wanted those stories. 
3. Someone mentioned Poly... Yeah there's poly stuff in my books.  I'm poly myself and I wanted to represent that as well because we see almost NONE of a legitimate poly lifestyle in any stories. We see "threesomes" but that isn't the same thing as a poly relationship where the people are all together and living a life together instead of just "in bed together".

Representation is a huge deal to me. I have gay and straight characters, bisexual characters, pansexual characters, asexual characters (later in the series), polyamorous characters, white, black, American Indian, European, etc. I do my best to put a real world's plethora of peoples into the story.

I'm so happy there's so many other authors here who have diverse characters in their writing. I'm enjoying this thread so much. Thanks all for sharing your experiences. 

Now we should get together a big cross-promo some time.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

So I've decided to delve into romance for a while and have been trying to figure out making a series. These would probably be contemporary, and I'll have different pen names for m/f, m/m, and f/f. Because I am a glutton for punishment.

With m/f it's easier, I think, to build a series of romances around a group of people. Since the majority of people are 'expected' to be straight (this gets my goat, it does).

What kind of inter-related group can I find for m/m or f/f? I'd like to be at least somewhat realistic and prefer to stay out of rockstars or related topics, since that's not a particular area of interest. A lot of the series I see popping up in the m/m list are paranormal, which I would rather avoid for the moment. I think that inter-connected would be better for sell-through, but how would you link premises in same-sex couples? I know Avery's done an LGBT football team, but are there more adult-y examples? I can think of a lot of YA or NA examples, but not many adult ones. Grumble.


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

elizabethsade said:


> With m/f it's easier, I think, to build a series of romances around a group of people. Since the majority of people are 'expected' to be straight (this gets my goat, it does).
> 
> What kind of inter-related group can I find for m/m or f/f?


If you want a big series, it probably has to be set at least in a minor way in a place where you expect more than your average number of gay people. Like, a typical accounting office might be a little weird if for some reason it had 10 single gay men looking for love- but it's more believable if it were the campaign office for a LGBT supporting candidate. Of course, you can just go with a group of friends and it would be pretty believable.

But wondering, didn't you say earlier that you also write m/f romance? Have you considered doing a series where you have all of the above, m/f, m/m, f/f pairings in different books of the series? I saw that done recently by Melissa Foster. Not sure how it has gone for her sales (book 1 is m/f, book 2 is f/f and tells the story of the sister of the MC from book 1, and there's supposed to be a m/m book coming soon), but the reviews seemed positive overall. It might be a way to broaden the audience of potential readers. I had an idea to do a series of 3 books set at a community theater, with two books having m/f couples and one having f/f.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Nicole Carlson said:


> If you want a big series, it probably has to be set at least in a minor way in a place where you expect more than your average number of gay people. Like, a typical accounting office might be a little weird if for some reason it had 10 single gay men looking for love- but it's more believable if it were the campaign office for a LGBT supporting candidate. Of course, you can just go with a group of friends and it would be pretty believable.
> 
> But wondering, didn't you say earlier that you also write m/f romance? Have you considered doing a series where you have all of the above, m/f, m/m, f/f pairings in different books of the series? I saw that done recently by Melissa Foster. Not sure how it has gone for her sales (book 1 is m/f, book 2 is f/f and tells the story of the sister of the MC from book 1, and there's supposed to be a m/m book coming soon), but the reviews seemed positive overall. It might be a way to broaden the audience of potential readers. I had an idea to do a series of 3 books set at a community theater, with two books having m/f couples and one having f/f.


I will literally write pretty much any sort of pairings. I've written m/f, m/m, f/f, m/m/m, m/m/f, and so on and so forth. I like playing with people, so to speak, and the different dynamics that crop up in different types of pairs (or the ones that cross over between pairs) fascinate me. It's why romance is such a good fit for me. 

Holy lots of books, batman. Any idea which series of hers it is? xD I think the reason she probably gets away with it is because of her visibility as an NYT/etc author? I'm not sure how well it would work, crossing those lines so to speak as a brand-new author. (Would it make branding more difficult, would it confuse people, etc.) I think down the road I would definitely want to incorporate more diverse pairs into my 'main name', whichever it is - and honestly, it's probably going to end up being one pen name that's almost exclusively m/m with maybe one or two pairs different, one's f/f with one or two different, then a 'main name' that starts off m/f but starts branching out when it's logical, and maybe eventually brings the other two under its wings. Or not. I dunno.

I think it's going to depend a lot on what kind of readership I want to target, too? Because there's a demographic of people who are fine with crossover and there's a demographic who isn't. So I think separating until I build up a platform and then maybe slowly integrating them might be the better way to increase visibility...


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## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

elizabethsade said:


> Holy lots of books, batman. Any idea which series of hers it is?


Uh, yeah- she seems to be an unstoppable force of nature. I went to her friend and sometimes writing partner, Bella Andre's, session at a writing conference last year and felt like I survived a hurricane, but like in a good way.

The series is Harborside Nights. Book is Discovering Delilah. The fact that it is being done now, if only by a big name, makes me wonder if in a few years it will be pretty mainstream.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Nicole Carlson said:


> Uh, yeah- she seems to be an unstoppable force of nature. I went to her friend and sometimes writing partner, Bella Andre's, session at a writing conference last year and felt like I survived a hurricane, but like in a good way.
> 
> The series is Harborside Nights. Book is Discovering Delilah. The fact that it is being done now, if only by a big name, makes me wonder if in a few years it will be pretty mainstream.


I bet. xD That sounds like an awesome session, though. Oh, found the book. Not surprised there's more mm than ff, since that's relatively typical in romance, but. It's still pretty awesome.

I hope so. I really do. For one, it'd make my life easier - and for two, I think it'd be more representative of how America actually is. It definitely does lend well to eventually integrating my pen names into one main name, though. Or at least branching out the m/f one.


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

> 3. Someone mentioned Poly... Yeah there's poly stuff in my books.  I'm poly myself and I wanted to represent that as well because we see almost NONE of a legitimate poly lifestyle in any stories. We see "threesomes" but that isn't the same thing as a poly relationship where the people are all together and living a life together instead of just "in bed together".


I mentioned it because as I've been wandering down that path for the last couple of years, I realize it's a much larger than visible subset of society. It's so very interesting when you're either part of that group or very close friends (or relatives) of someone in it to see how the dynamics of relationships evolve, modify, and unfortunately, sometimes completely collapse.

My initial impression was of course "threesome" (pretty much every het man's wettest dream in my experience, and I've got about 20 years of experience in tech that mostly focused on adult entertainment). My secondary impression was "fundamentalist Mormons" but that was easy since I grew up in and somehow still live in Idaho. A few years ago I watched a documentary on SHO or HBO or such about polyamory. My tertiary impression was "haha, Los Angeles / Hollywood a-holes co-opting the free love movement of the 60's and 70's." Then I discovered OK Cupid, POF, and a few other dating websites that were under the radar (considering all you ever hear about on TV or such is match.com and eharmony.com).

As I began talking to various women, and soon enough their partners (both men and women), I realized that this was something new. New maybe isn't a proper way to say it, as these communities have always existed, as far back as ancient times. But in our Puritanical America, where sex is taboo and cutting off someone's head or shooting them in the head is somehow less morally repugnant, outing any kind of "deviant" sexuality has always been extremely risky. Again, my father decided not to risk outing himself as a gay man and instead married not once, not twice, but three times (my mother was #2 and #3). Ruining both families was deemed more socially acceptable ("he was a terrible father" "drunken SOB" "mental case") than being a homosexual. Kids are still killing themselves over being outed as "different." Too many in society still believe transgender persons are sick pedophiles who want to use the "wrong" bathroom to... I don't know, but sick shit I guess? (don't get me started on a rant about transphobia)

Anyway, this polyamory thing isn't really new, but it is new to most people who don't know history or have maybe just lived in their own monogamy bubble and never got exposed to the universe outside of it. I've been around LGBT persons, businesses, groups, etc. my whole life and I was unaware that poly was a thing. A much larger thing than I think most people realize. Finding out how ugly the reaction from poly persons can be when you mistakenly (or in my case the first time, ignorantly) label them "swingers" is a necessarily rude awakening. Imagine Gollum's hissing and spitting at Frodo. That's the kind of reaction I got, but like I said, rightfully so.

The complex relationship webs poly persons weave is fascinating because when it works, it's like a well-oiled machine, a smoothly running factory. The energy between 3+ persons who are all in love is intense, almost overwhelming, especially to anyone who has lived their whole life in monogamy. (Note: I'm not advocating any relationship type, just babbling about my views/experiences as a mostly objective observer). It's especially interesting when different poly "families" have members within another family. Sort of like a cross between the "Red Rover" game we played as kids and a Venn diagram.

Hanging out with a quad who all live in the same household and are intimate with each other was a good experience. I knew there was more behind the scenes that I would never see unless I was an intimate member of their family. But the ease which all four interacted told me that they had done fairly well at working out most of the bumps and kinks that come with trying to balance intimate feelings between three persons while also helping those three balance their emotions between everyone else in the group. But it wasn't until we were invited to a backyard barbecue that even more complex dynamics began to manifest.

One of the ladies in the original quad was also dating a woman from a triad as well as a single male. One of the quad's men was also dating the same woman in the triad, but two other women as well, both from poly families of 4+ members (keep in mind, these "families" generally don't all live together under one roof... everyone seems to have their own lives outside of the family but they work hard to schedule time with each member whether alone or as part of a group get-together).

Yes, it gets very confusing. About as confusing as when dealing with a friend's (or your own) massively interconnected family. Or a Mexican soap opera (which are actually pretty awesome because of just how complicated the relationship chains can be). And for some of the members, particularly the single male who had never been exposed to the poly lifestyle, it's extremely difficult to both understand and accept. Jealousy is usually what kills a relationship, and it definitely exists in polyamory.

I guess my long-winded point is that there's a hell of a lot of persons who engage in polyamory. I've met "artist" types (writers, musicians, painters, etc) quite often, and the stereotype of us being a bit more morally relaxed is generally true. But a lot of polyamorous persons fall outside of this liberal/artsy sector. Lawyers, doctors, police officers, HR managers, child care providers, teachers, engineers... every walk of life is represented as far as I can tell. And while being gay, lesbian, or bisexual (well, a bi woman, anyway, bi men are still taboo for some reason I can't figure out) is really not that big of a deal for most these days, transgender persons, fetishists, poly, and others are now starting to slowly trickle into the mainstream.

I wouldn't say there's a specific number I could guess as to who was polyamorous, or into BDSM, or whatever other "oddity" that human beings might be/be into. I can only say I was surprised at how large the web of polyamory is in certain regions (west coast has far larger numbers according to my unscientific research). This surprise, of course, put my brain into "think about weird shit" mode, which gave me plenty of ideas. When I say "weird shit" I don't mean I think it's deviant or gross or super-weird (just regular weird!). Just weird compared to "normal" (whatever the fuck that means). But weird is good. Weird like shape-shifting BDSM billionaire BBW werewolf erotica has made careers for some authors.

Dino-tentacle insect porn and rapture apocalypse have a lot in common in that they both serve niche interests that aren't quite as niche as we think when we first hear about (and laugh or cringe at) them. Hell, we didn't think there was really that much interest in BDSM until 50 Shades showed up and freaked everyone out (we authors... we freaked out for entirely different reasons, but that's a whole different thread). I honestly and truly had no idea "shifter paranormal erotica/romance" was such a hugely popular thing. Prepper dystopia... well, I knew about that, but even it surprised me in terms of popularity.

What this means, now that I'm finally shutting up since "Elite: Dangerous" is finally done updating and I can go pew-pew some lame noobs (hopefully from Texas, I totally spawn-kill Texas gamers whenever the opportunity arises), is that there's another very large, very low-key audience out there who isn't being served. Or is underserved. So if you see me write a bunch of books about triads, polyrotica (I totally own that word now, you have to pay me a licensing fee to use it!), etc., you'll know I'm just trying to gain a foothold in an untapped market.

Like "stoner fiction" now that marijuana is accepted and even legal in some states. Imagine how many stoners there are who wish, no, DEMAND to be entertained...


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## Talbot (Jul 14, 2015)

I write kid books and I'm determined to make them inclusive. There's three families in 'B' having an adventure and one is a pair of married dads and their adopted daughter. It's a new book so I haven't caught any hell yet but I look forward to reactions, if any. It proves people are reading!


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## MalcolmRichards (May 20, 2015)

I'm about to launch a new mystery/thriller series with a straight female lead and a gay male supporting lead. The stories are pretty dark and probably fall into Gillian Flynn/Nicci French psychological territory (although I'm not saying I'm anywhere near as good!). I love mysteries and thrillers and as a gay man I never feel represented by the characters I read/watch within those genres. Which is exactly why I'm writing characters I feel I can identify with without the storyline explicitly being about their sexuality.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2015)

Forgive me for being naïve, but do these four groups all agree with one another? I know I'd hate being dumped into such an inclusive group. Gay men for example, might not go along or even sympathize with transsexuals (as in open bathrooms, etc. or other issues.) Who set up LGBT together in the first place? I don't recall seeing it 20 years ago.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## Lia Cooper (Jan 28, 2014)

HSh said:


> Let me bring up another topic I think is useful to any writer, especially of one genre.
> 
> SERIES
> 
> ...


I 100% agree that the "series sells" trend carries into (at the very least) m/m. I wrote two thematically similar books, ones a standalone and the other is the first in a trilogy (soon to be a series because i can't stop writing it lol) and I cant get the standalone to sell but the series is my best seller. As a reader i don't really like series but I've come to accept that I'm in the minority XD

****

On another note, I have a question for anyone who writes BOTH m/m and f/f....have you tried to sell it under the same pen name or do you publish titles under distinct pen names?


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## Natasha Holme (May 26, 2012)

I'm a lesbian who has published my diaries from 1983 (aged 13) to 1991 (aged 21), when I struggled with my sexuality.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Lia Cooper said:


> On another note, I have a question for anyone who writes BOTH m/m and f/f....have you tried to sell it under the same pen name or do you publish titles under distinct pen names?


I haven't published yet but am writing books in both of those genres (and m/f stuff, too). Based on a lot of research and talking to people, they're going to be published under distinct, different pen names. First of all because the definition of series across the two genres are not the same - lesbian romance series are different than the typical m/m romance series (I've spent quite some time going around the bestseller lists, tracking trends, etc). Plus the readerships are entirely different - it's primarily straight women who read m/m, and I would guess primarily LGBTQ women who read lesbian romance.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

DeeWonder said:


> Forgive me for being naïve, but do these four groups all agree with one another? I know I'd hate being dumped into such an inclusive group. Gay men for example, might not go along or even sympathize with transsexuals (as in open bathrooms, etc. or other issues.) Who set up LGBT together in the first place? I don't recall seeing it 20 years ago.


Well it was LG in the 80s and somewhere in the late 80s it started to be LGB, T got brought in a bit later in the late 90s/2000s really. It's a political coalition based on fighting against groups who view all groups as part of "THE GAY" and want to deprive us of all our rights, if not our lives.

In terms of literature, I don't see much crossover. There's some YA authors who write different varied LGBT books, but for the most part they are either lesbian, MM, or trans. Bisexual has some crossover based on the respective gender of the bisexual person.


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

DeeWonder said:


> Forgive me for being naïve, but do these four groups all agree with one another? I know I'd hate being dumped into such an inclusive group. Gay men for example, might not go along or even sympathize with transsexuals (as in open bathrooms, etc. or other issues.) Who set up LGBT together in the first place? I don't recall seeing it 20 years ago.


Adversity has driven us together. 
Some people are always going to be more or less open-minded than others.
There are LGBT people who aren't understanding toward others in the movement despite having similar levels of persecution.
I find that sad.

Btw, Transgender is the word you're looking for. Transsexual is considered derogatory by most trans people and is at best inaccurate. Transpeople are trans because of their gender, not their sexuality. They can be straight, gay, bi, pan, whatever, and still be transgendered. There is basically no such thing as "transsexual" anymore, at least by the proper pc terms. Just fyi.

Anyway, we're still a subset, and at least as long as Amazon puts us in one category, there's some crossover in who sees our books.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Nicole Carlson said:


> But wondering, didn't you say earlier that you also write m/f romance? Have you considered doing a series where you have all of the above, m/f, m/m, f/f pairings in different books of the series? I saw that done recently by Melissa Foster. Not sure how it has gone for her sales (book 1 is m/f, book 2 is f/f and tells the story of the sister of the MC from book 1, and there's supposed to be a m/m book coming soon), but the reviews seemed positive overall. It might be a way to broaden the audience of potential readers. I had an idea to do a series of 3 books set at a community theater, with two books having m/f couples and one having f/f.


This is what I'm doing. I have three M/M books planned for the next year. One of them is a standalone, and the other two are the third and fourth books, respectively, in two different series.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Shei Darksbane said:


> Btw, Transgender is the word you're looking for. Transsexual is considered derogatory by most trans people and is at best inaccurate. Transpeople are trans because of their gender, not their sexuality. They can be straight, gay, bi, pan, whatever, and still be transgendered. There is basically no such thing as "transsexual" anymore, at least by the proper pc terms. Just fyi.


Just fyi I think Julia Serano would disagree.

Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity


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## martyns (May 8, 2014)

I'm a strong supporter of LGBT. I think LGBT are very discriminated against in society - even today.

I have a pair of lesbians in my third book, who are sentenced to be burned at the stake by the church for 'lying together' it's a cliche story, but the books have a religious theme and I wanted to protest against the way religion treated homosexuals historically. A male character is revealed as being bi-sexual in book 4. I think it's important for more stories to feature LGBT characters in protagonist roles. I know George R Martin has featured them, them, but I don't think LGBT in GoT got very prominent roles.


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## Natasha Holme (May 26, 2012)

Shei Darksbane said:


> Btw, Transgender is the word you're looking for. Transsexual is considered derogatory by most trans people and is at best inaccurate. Transpeople are trans because of their gender, not their sexuality. They can be straight, gay, bi, pan, whatever, and still be transgendered. There is basically no such thing as "transsexual" anymore, at least by the proper pc terms. Just fyi.


By my understanding, the words transgender (and never transgendered, which is now considered offensive), transsexual, and transvestite have clear meanings:

*Transgender *is an umbrella term for anyone who sits or moves between the female-male polarities.
*Transsexual *means biologically changing your gender assigned at birth, by surgery or hormones or both.
*Transvestite *means cross-dressing, but otherwise comfortable with, and happy to remain in, your body assigned at birth.

I may be wrong!


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

Natasha Holme said:


> By my understanding, the words transgender (and never transgendered, which is now considered offensive), transsexual, and transvestite have clear meanings:
> 
> *Transgender *is an umbrella term for anyone who sits or moves between the female-male polarities.
> *Transsexual *means biologically changing your gender assigned at birth, by surgery or hormones or both.
> ...


Not really. Transgender means a person who identifies as a different gender than the body they were born with. 
Transsexual is an outdated term that many now find offensive.
Transvestite has nothing to do with transgender really. It's kinda an entirely separate concept.

But back to the topic!


martyns said:


> I'm a strong supporter of LGBT. I think LGBT are very discriminated against in society - even today.
> 
> I have a pair of lesbians in my third book, who are sentenced to be burned at the stake by the church for 'lying together' it's a cliche story, but the books have a religious theme and I wanted to protest against the way religion treated homosexuals historically. A male character is revealed as being bi-sexual in book 4. I think it's important for more stories to feature LGBT characters in protagonist roles. I know George R Martin has featured them, them, but I don't think LGBT in GoT got very prominent roles.


I couldn't agree more that it's important to feature more LGBT characters as protagonists. I see a few secondary characters as LGBT but not a lot of mains. I want mains.  
That's what I'm writing, and I'll keep writing it.

Though I did realize suddenly, and with some degree of shock, that one of the stories I want to write in my Auralight Codex world is actually a straight main. There is one LGBT character in that story, but only one. It really surprised me when I realized that. Because my stories are usually so gay-washed... haha. 

I guess with as many stories as I make up, it had to happen some time, if only by chance.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Just fyi I think Julia Serano would disagree.
> 
> Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity


That book came out eight years ago, didn't it? Transgender people have made big strides in visibility in that time, and the U.S. has gone from very little in the way of a trans rights movement to something much stronger. If language choices have evolved during a time of such rapid change, that seems unremarkable to me.



DeeWonder said:


> Forgive me for being naïve, but do these four groups all agree with one another? I know I'd hate being dumped into such an inclusive group. Gay men for example, might not go along or even sympathize with transsexuals (as in open bathrooms, etc. or other issues.) Who set up LGBT together in the first place? I don't recall seeing it 20 years ago.


In the early '90s, I was the copy editor of a college newspaper that cared deeply about using inclusive terminology. While I was there, the editorial staff was debating moving from "LGB" to "LGBT" or "LGBTQ." So I'd say that was about the time the longer acronym was starting to move out into broader U.S. culture, spearheaded by activists and left-identifying media. It probably happened earlier in some bigger urban areas.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Becca Mills said:


> That book came out eight years ago, didn't it? Transgender people have made big strides in visibility in that time, and the U.S. has gone from very little in the way of a trans rights movement to something much stronger. If language choices have evolved during a time of such rapid change, that seems unremarkable to me.


I cited that book because transsexual is in the title and the book is very clearly rejecting a transgender umbrella that ignores the specificities of transsexual experience.



Shei Darksbane said:


> back to the topic!


It is on topic to refute attempts to police what people may call themselves. That is the very antithesis of a support thread.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Mercia McMahon said:


> I cited that book because transsexual is in the title and the book is very clearly rejecting a transgender umbrella that ignores the specificities of transsexual experience.
> 
> It is on topic to refute attempts to police what people may call themselves. That is the very antithesis of a support thread.


I don't see anyone trying to make rules about what any one person may or may not call themselves. This informative GLAAD page on gender identity and terminology points out that the best practice is simply to ask what a particular person prefers in the way of pronouns and other words applied to themselves. If a particular person prefers to be called "transsexual," that's what you should call them. People should get to choose their own categories and labels.

When choosing an umbrella term to describe a whole group of people, it's hard to find language that includes everyone in the optimal way. So far as I know, Shei is correct that "transgender" is currently considered the most inclusive and respectful umbrella term, but that doesn't mean everyone embraces that term -- just that it has gained more support than other candidate terms.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

I write gay romance and urban fantasy. I write a lot of other stuff, too, but this is where my heart lies.


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

Mercia McMahon said:


> I cited that book because transsexual is in the title and the book is very clearly rejecting a transgender umbrella that ignores the specificities of transsexual experience.
> 
> It is on topic to refute attempts to police what people may call themselves. That is the very antithesis of a support thread.


Sigh. Okay. I don't want this to turn into an argument about terms, so I tried to steer us back away from what is ultimately a cultural-political issue, and back to the discussion about authors, books, and material that includes LGBT people in various ways. Policing never happened. Just informing.

And while that one book refers to one individual who feels that the term transsexual is best, the majority of T-folk are currently favoring transgender, as I said.

I have several T-people in my very close friends and family, and once identified as transgender myself before discovering what gender fluidity was and realizing I was more that.

Thus, coming from direct, personal experience, I can say that most people I know in the trans community prefer transgender and consider transsexual to be a non-PC term these days. Many consider it offensive.
Say what you want, but if you say transsexual instead of transgender, transperson, transwoman, or transman, you may find some people will be offended. That is all I am saying.

As for what people "may call themselves", I never said anyone could or could not call themselves anything. I only spoke up on what is currently the most politically-correct and least offensive term as far as I am aware.
People can call themselves whatever they want. I never tried to stop anyone.
But I wasn't aware you were transgender or transsexual, or that the other person querying about the term was.
I thought you were both querying about what *other* people call themselves. And what you call them.
If I was wrong about that, my mistake. 
But I still wasn't policing the term. Just informing.


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> I write gay romance and urban fantasy. I write a lot of other stuff, too, but this is where my heart lies.


Oooh. Links? I love me some gay urban fantasy.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Honestly, if I had spent more of the past year actually writing instead of angsting over what I wanted to write, I'd likely have a couple novels published by now.

Since I didn't, instead, I've settled on a publication schedule for the moment, with no guarantee of my writerly existential crisis being over.

That being said, I've finally reconciled what I enjoy writing with what I believed I should write, and that's nice. So I think I'll probably settle here.


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

elizabethsade said:


> Honestly, if I had spent more of the past year actually writing instead of angsting over what I wanted to write, I'd likely have a couple novels published by now.
> 
> Since I didn't, instead, I've settled on a publication schedule for the moment, with no guarantee of my writerly existential crisis being over.
> 
> That being said, I've finally reconciled what I enjoy writing with what I believed I should write, and that's nice. So I think I'll probably settle here.


Sweet, what have you settled on exactly? 
Last we talked, I think you were into a sci-fi story? and a lesbian romance?


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Shei Darksbane said:


> Sweet, what have you settled on exactly?
> Last we talked, I think you were into a sci-fi story? and a lesbian romance?


I'm switching primarily to romance, generally contemporary. Eventually going to launch straight contemp, lesbian contemp, NA LGBTQ, and male-gay contemp pen names in that order. I like writing romance and I'm good at it, even though I can acknowledge its occasionally cliched existence. 

I might go back to scifi/fantasy a bit later, but I was putting a lot of pressure on myself to do what I thought I /should/ do, and now that that's easing up, I realize I really do like writing just plain contemp stuff. I like writing about people and the situations they get into, even if they can be cheesy. It's fun and sweet and occasionally dark.


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

elizabethsade said:


> I'm switching primarily to romance, generally contemporary. Eventually going to launch straight contemp, lesbian contemp, NA LGBTQ, and male-gay contemp pen names in that order. I like writing romance and I'm good at it, even though I can acknowledge its occasionally cliched existence.
> 
> I might go back to scifi/fantasy a bit later, but I was putting a lot of pressure on myself to do what I thought I /should/ do, and now that that's easing up, I realize I really do like writing just plain contemp stuff. I like writing about people and the situations they get into, even if they can be cheesy. It's fun and sweet and occasionally dark.


That's awesome. So glad you've found what works for you.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Shei Darksbane said:


> Sigh. Okay. I don't want this to turn into an argument about terms . . .
> But I wasn't aware you were transgender or transsexual, or that the other person querying about the term was.
> I thought you were both querying about what *other* people call themselves. And what you call them.
> If I was wrong about that, my mistake.
> But I still wasn't policing the term. Just informing.


You were wrong in more than one way. You were not "just informing" by saying that my self-designation is considered offensive. That puts me in the position of exclusion in a supposedly supportive thread. So you were policing and you were challenged on it. I used to run a trans support group in London that mostly attracted transsexual members, who owned that self-designation with pride. Mostly you were wrong because it was you that started stating what terms could be used in this thread.

One of my non-fiction sites: http://transwrites.com


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## kathygnome (Jun 29, 2009)

> You were wrong in more than one way. You were not "just informing" by saying that my self-designation is considered offensive.


I run what's probably the largest support board for young transgendered people (600,000 posts, though largely supplanted these days by Reddit and Facebook) and I've never even heard of the concept that transsexual was offensive. I've heard the opposite--some transgendered people rejecting the term transgender as overly wide. Maybe transsexual would be considered a little old fashioned or even stuffy, but offensive? Just never heard that.

It's a subset of transgendered, being more specifically oriented towards people born on one side of the gender binary who transition to the other, generally surgically. As a trans woman, I am transsexual which is part of the transgendered umbrella and I'm also part of the LGBT community by virtue of being both L and T. The terms are not exclusive. If people mostly use the term transgendered in preference to transsexual, it's largely because they're attempting to be inclusive.

If you read _Whipping Girl_, Serano does anything but reject the transgender umbrella. She is making observations on the ways that femiphobia, the fear of things considered culturally feminine, interacts with and supports misogyny and homophobia in both the straight and LGBT world. She makes the case that transgendered people are in a unique place to observe the way in which gender politics play out in our society.

Now maybe we could get back to talking about issues of relevance to transgendered authors?


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

Mercia McMahon said:


> You were wrong in more than one way. You were not "just informing" by saying that my self-designation is considered offensive. That puts me in the position of exclusion in a supposedly supportive thread. So you were policing and you were challenged on it. I used to run a trans support group in London that mostly attracted transsexual members, who owned that self-designation with pride. Mostly you were wrong because it was you that started stating what terms could be used in this thread.
> 
> One of my non-fiction sites: http://transwrites.com


Yes, I was just informing. You may not have taken it that way, but that's how I intended it. You're taking this personally when it wasn't aimed at you to begin with. I responded to another poster who claimed naivety on the topic and let them know that transsexual is considered offensive to some people.

Take a second and look at this logically, will you?
I'm LGBT. I'm a huge ally of Transpeople with lots of transpeople in my life, and I used to identify as trans. I have been a part of several trans support groups, and I am hugely supportive of transpeople of all kinds.
And all I was doing was trying to make sure that respect was sent to transpeople.

Regional differences are bound to happen. In my part of the world right now, I've heard a lot of talk that "Transsexual is not acceptable anymore as it's often confusing for people and leads people to believe that a transwoman is really just a cross-dressing gay guy and not a woman in her own right with a sexuality that is separate from that identity." Seriously. That is a quote from one of my support groups' rules page. I'm not here trying to police what terms can and can't be used in a thread. I'm here suggesting that people use respectful terms, and I suggested to someone who claimed naivety on the topic that the term they used may not be the best one.

The way I feel about things: If this is your identity? You can call yourself *whatever* you darn-well please. Seriously. I do not care. I believe you have *every single right* to call yourself whatever makes you happiest and whatever you feel is inclusive and respectful. I promise that is the absolute truth of Shei. Shei just wants people to be happy with themselves. Take a moment and accept the fact that I am not trying to do something harmful to you. I was just trying to defend your rights. (That is what I *thought* I was doing because I didn't realize you were a transperson, and because in my circles, transsexual is now considered offensive, I was trying to defend transpeople and promote the currently most accepted term as per my best information. Look at that logically. I'm seriously on YOUR side.)

But I'm not lying when I say that in my circles, the support groups I am a part of currently, "transgender" is currently considered the most respectful and accepted word. 
In those groups, transsexual is not used anymore, and right now transgendered is being eyed with potential dislike (though people are arguing that one still. I still think it's a reasonable word, and it's actually the one I used when I identified as TG in the past).

So can we please have a chill pill and just calllllm down?  I didn't mean to offend you, and I wasn't trying to police you. I swear, I was only trying to educate people who didn't seem to know the latest most PC terms as per my best current knowledge. I didn't mean any harm to you. I'm on your side. So please, can we let it go and get back to the topic?


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## ShawnaN (Oct 17, 2014)

Can anyone tell me what magic category and keyword combo you need to get in the LGBT mystery/detective category?



jimjimtk said:


> Hi Shei,
> 
> Thanks for starting this thread. I am an author of gay fiction (Gay / Literary / a little Magical Realism thrown into one of my books.) Anyway, I am new. I just started publishing in Amazon in April. And getting my books reviewed is a challenge. I was wondering if anyone knows of good websites for getting reviews for LGBT books, or any other suggestions for getting reviews.
> 
> ...


I run WildeTimesTavern.com as hobby site and do reviews of LGBTQ+ books. I have a bit of a teensy backlog right now since it's just a hobby site, but I'm happy to help anyone out with reviews. One of my reviewers also cross-posts all of her reviews on Amazon and Goodreads.


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

ShawnaN said:


> Can anyone tell me what magic category and keyword combo you need to get in the LGBT mystery/detective category?
> 
> I run WildeTimesTavern.com as hobby site and do reviews of LGBTQ+ books. I have a bit of a teensy backlog right now since it's just a hobby site, but I'm happy to help anyone out with reviews. One of my reviewers also cross-posts all of her reviews on Amazon and Goodreads.


Hmm. I would think put it in a mystery bisac on your two you can pick from KDP dashboard, then keyword gay or lesbian (whatever is appropriate). 

And thanks! I'll have to submit my stuff.


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## Spinneyhead (Nov 4, 2010)

AngryGames said:


> What this means, now that I'm finally shutting up since "Elite: Dangerous" is finally done updating and I can go pew-pew some lame noobs (hopefully from Texas, I totally spawn-kill Texas gamers whenever the opportunity arises), is that there's another very large, very low-key audience out there who isn't being served. Or is underserved. So if you see me write a bunch of books about triads, polyrotica (I totally own that word now, you have to pay me a licensing fee to use it!), etc., you'll know I'm just trying to gain a foothold in an untapped market.


I've lost a lot of (enjoyable) hours to Elite: Dangerous this year. I'm more of an explorer than a fighter, but I'm not above collecting bounties when I can.

But, back to the theme of the thread, I tend to put bi characters into my stories a lot. I know quite a few folk who are bi, and would put myself somewhere around 1 on the Kinsey scale. I've also written a fair amount of bi- tending towards poly, sometimes- erotica.

A variety of possible relationships are opened up when you let yourself be open to the fluidity of sexuality. I'm hoping that, if I write the stories, the market will catch up with me. (The sooner, the better, of course.)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

it appears to me that there's been some misunderstanding which has resulted in offense given when none was intended.

Let's all agree that people are allowed to choose for themselves what terms they will use.  And yes, some discussion of what those terms are is appropriate in a thread of this nature.  But arguments about them are divisive not supportive.

In a thread of this nature, many varied subjects will be broached--by its nature, it's going to be more free-wheeling than other types of threads.  Once started, this kind of support thread, even more than other topics here, can't be limited.   There's not one topic.  

Let's find grounds for agreement here, not disagreement.  This thread is a great idea--keep working at it and it'll be of great use to the membership.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, let's try to move on.  The OP has apologized for giving offense.  Everyone's made their points about this issue.  Move on.  And yes, we will start removing posts if this brouhaha continues, in an attempt to save a useful thread.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

judygoodwin said:


> I agree with Shei. I know several Transgender people (MTF and FTM) and Transgender is now the acceptable term. I know it was different before, but that's just the current trend, much like "African American" or any other minority group and their preferred terms. (I'm still working on the differences between Hispanic and Latino, which since I'm in Arizona is rather important).


Hispanic generally means those of Spanish (ie, Spain) origin, Latino is generally from Latin America (Mexico, etc). To the people I know, Hispanic reminds them too much of their 'conquered' history, basically - it defines them based on the people who enslaved them. However, quite a few people that are Latino in origin have adopted Hispanic as an identifying term (mostly because of the ambiguity). So it's really up to the person, but in Arizona, most people I know prefer to be called Latinos/to refer to the group as a whole as Latinos, unless you're specifically talking about the group from Spain.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## Madeline_Kirby (Apr 14, 2015)

ShawnaN said:


> Can anyone tell me what magic category and keyword combo you need to get in the LGBT mystery/detective category?


I put my book in the Mystery-Cozy and Fiction-Gay categories, and it went immediately into the LGBT Mystery subcategory. Keywords that I used that I think would be pertinent to your question included: murder mystery cozy gay lgbt


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## MalcolmRichards (May 20, 2015)

judygoodwin said:


> Let us know when your first book I out. This sound really interesting, and just the kind of thing I like to read.


Lost Lives (Emily Swanson Book 1) will be out November 17th, with Book 2 out (if I get my butt into gear) a month later


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,224480.0.html

Just linking to another thread where I share some art made for me by an amazing, gay-friendly artist.


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## ShawnaN (Oct 17, 2014)

Madeline_Kirby said:


> I put my book in the Mystery-Cozy and Fiction-Gay categories, and it went immediately into the LGBT Mystery subcategory. Keywords that I used that I think would be pertinent to your question included: murder mystery cozy gay lgbt


ah, many thanks for this!


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## DentistHeatherK (Jan 4, 2015)

AveryCockburn said:


> It does seem that, for whatever reason, books with coming-out struggles or "first-time" themes have the largest audiences. I think many crossover readers from M/F romance are more receptive to familiar narratives. Because of the fight for equal rights, the aspect of LGBT life that the average straight person is most familiar with is The Struggle. Angsty stories pull at heartstrings and awaken readers' sympathy. There's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> But while those are important stories to tell, one of the reasons I started writing in this genre was to tell different stories, ones in which being gay is an intrinsic part of who the characters are*, but the biggest issues in their lives are something else entirely: class differences, economic struggles, cultural divides, etc.
> 
> ...


I'm a M/M reviewer, and I can't believe I haven't heard of your series! I just added all of them to my to-read list. Lots of my friends have loved your books on Goodreads.


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## DentistHeatherK (Jan 4, 2015)

Also, I always do a deals post on my blog every Friday with my favorite deals of the week, so if you guys want to email me when you have promotions, feel free. I can't promise that they will make the list, but I'll try! [email protected]


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

I haven't read through this entire thread. I have a question, though. I'm in the middle of an epic (currently 3/4 written at 106K words) sci-fi/sci-fantasy/space opera/sci-fi military (I don't cross genres, I embrace them). A fundamental thread throughout the book is human infertility as the result of environmental pollution, radiation from wars, cosmic radiation, toxicity issues settling new planets, etc. Gender on a sliding scale is acknowledged and assumed by the characters. Most of the various characters' romances are hetero, but one secondary character is intersexual and bi. I'm considering (either in this book or the next one) having her find a romance. I'm even considering having her do a fling with a female hetero major character (who is a virgin). There aren't any sex scenes in the book, although they are implied. 

My question is, for a mainstream audience, do you think this sort of romance, passing or permanent, between an intersexual and a het of either sex would create a backlash? In particular, would a fling with a het major (virgin, sweet and kickass) character create an eruption? Romance is not the major theme of the book, and especially this romance.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Vergence (Apr 17, 2015)

I write epic fantasy with gay (and straight and non-gendered) main characters that isn't romance. I need all the support I can get. 

Honestly though, I don't think many mainstream readers care about a character's sexuality in 2015, if that was ever really a turn off. As a gay man I feel comfortable marketing to my community but at the same time I don't want to limit myself. I'm still finding my audience. And it's always great to connect with other authors.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

JLCarver said:


> I think it's only a matter of how you do it. A lot of shows and books might have the token gay character so they can show a gay scene for shock value and to pander to the gay population. Take the first Melrose Place, for instance. (Not the remake.) They had a recurring gay character that, as I recall, they did very little with. All the main screen time was given to het relationships and drama. (I think a lot of it had to do with censorship by the network, though. This was back in the early 90s.) It feels a little like exploitation in that sense, a token nod to their gay audience. Basically, don't do that.
> 
> To avoid that type of label, all you have to do, I think, is to make the relationship believable in your story. Let that storyline develop organically in your work, and you shouldn't have a problem with anyone calling it pandering. If it makes sense for the character to fall for or have sex with a heterosexual character, then it should be fine. Basically, it boils down to character development. But, if it's only there for shock value or as some kind of plot point to dramatize a main heterosexual relationship, then it could be seen as pandering.


Thanks. Definitely not looking to tokenize. There isn't a place for such a romance in my current WIP, but have had some thoughts about using that character in more of a major role in a follow-on book. She's has a basic personality and talents that could be developed.


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## AlexisR (Apr 3, 2015)

Vergence said:


> Honestly though, I don't think many mainstream readers care about a character's sexuality in 2015, if that was ever really a turn off.


One of my two main protagonists/POV characters in AVG is a woman attracted to other women, although it's not apparent until you get further into the book that that's the case. Not only that, but her romantic involvement (or lack thereof) with several other female characters plays a very important role in her personal development and character arc throughout the story.

The setting also contains a social framework which actively encourages people to explore their sexuality with others of the same gender as a normal part of growing up.

I was bracing for a negative backlash given how charged the topic of LGBT characters in fantasy novels seems to be right now, so I was shocked (and pleasantly surprised) that I've only had one person give me a bad review for it so far.

More than anything, people seem genuinely curious to hear more about it all. I've had numerous requests to go into more detail on the gender and sexuality dynamics in the sequel. Go figure. I think you're right that it might just be that most people are fine with it as long as it makes sense in the context of the story.


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## Lia Cooper (Jan 28, 2014)

Vergence said:


> Honestly though, I don't think many mainstream readers care about a character's sexuality in 2015, if that was ever really a turn off.


After my first Bookbub ad on my first novel i receive more than one review from readers leaving positive reviews saying it had been their first time reading something with m/m romance in it. I think when you have a really strong plot (not necessarily romantic at all) that appeals to a wide audience and then develop a character that's not traditionally heterosexual you can not only reach out to the lgbtq audience but also potentially introduce something new to historically het/straight-readers, which i feel is a really awesome thing.

i think variety and also fully developing a character is always a good idea. maybe some readers wont enjoy it, but i bet you many others will and you might even open someone else's eyes to something new.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

On the flipside, I've had multiple reviews on different books where the reviewer indicated a "yuck" factor due to two female character getting too close. I never wrote the F/F scene, but the attraction between the characters turned readers off. This was in UF.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Natasha Holme (May 26, 2012)

JLCarver said:


> It would take some serious willpower for me not to tell those reviewers exactly what they could do with their review. You don't have to pander to those types of people. Write what you want to write, and if that includes a F/F love story, then there is plenty of support out there for you. If the mouth breathers don't like it, they can go read something else.


I had to look up 'mouth breather.' ... Does that make me a mouth breather?


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Lia Cooper (Jan 28, 2014)

JLCarver said:


> You don't have to pander to those types of people. Write what you want to write, and if that includes a F/F love story, then there is plenty of support out there for you.


this ^^


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

DentistHeatherK said:


> I'm a M/M reviewer, and I can't believe I haven't heard of your series! I just added all of them to my to-read list. Lots of my friends have loved your books on Goodreads.


Thanks, Heather! Hope you enjoy them. 



Lia Cooper said:


> I think when you have a really strong plot (not necessarily romantic at all) that appeals to a wide audience and then develop a character that's not traditionally heterosexual you can not only reach out to the lgbtq audience but also potentially introduce something new to historically het/straight-readers, which i feel is a really awesome thing.
> 
> i think variety and also fully developing a character is always a good idea. maybe some readers wont enjoy it, but i bet you many others will and you might even open someone else's eyes to something new.


YES!


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## T S Paul (Jan 6, 2016)

I have a sci fi series that the main character is a lesbian. I stayed away from sexuality for the first 2 books in the series, on the third book I gave her a girlfriend, sort of. She had a date, but complained that she did not "get to kiss the girl" on it. One of my Beta readers had real problems with that part of the plot. (against her religion, blah, blah blah) I gave her the choice of not reading but she stayed. I did giver her "crap" about it as she was from California (I know I should not have but couldnt help it) My own mother raised a stink about it and said "she better change back at the end of the book" My wife whose idea it was in the first place, thought that was hilarious. That book is now #3 in LGBT Science Fiction. My newest Book 4 (Revolutionary) continues the relationship and even has a couple of tender moments. That is about as far, for now, the characters will go. Light.  I posted that book on Tuesday not quite a week. It is 

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,283 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)

    #2 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction
    #8 in Books > Gay & Lesbian > Literature & Fiction > Fiction > Lesbian
    #10 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Lesbian Fiction

So I thought I would introduce myself and say Hi


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## JamesOsiris (Mar 23, 2014)

Trans author of LGBT-inclusive genre fiction here. Hi~


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## FireBadTreePretty (May 24, 2015)

Howdy! I am happy to be here on kboards with you folks. I guess I write queerly speculative fiction. I just finished my super rough draft of a f/f sci-fi shifter short and I am working on a m/m paranormal serial with planned f/f companion serial. 

I really hope to learn and network here. I have been published once by a now defunct small epub, but self publishing is still so new to me. Even after going through the process of putting my novella on amazon once I got my rights back to the book series. I don't want to put all my eggs in a publisher's basket again. I just am a little stumped on how to market LGBTQ books especially f/f or books with trans characters. 

Where do you promo your books?


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## BookishDreams (Apr 12, 2016)

Bi writer here! 

In The Dark Ones the protagonist is bisexual, and my other character range between bi, gay, lesbian, as well as straight. I'm all for diversity in books, but my main goal is bi-visibility


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

pocketmaus said:


> Howdy! I am happy to be here on kboards with you folks. I guess I write queerly speculative fiction. I just finished my super rough draft of a f/f sci-fi shifter short and I am working on a m/m paranormal serial with planned f/f companion serial.
> 
> I really hope to learn and network here. I have been published once by a now defunct small epub, but self publishing is still so new to me. Even after going through the process of putting my novella on amazon once I got my rights back to the book series. I don't want to put all my eggs in a publisher's basket again. I just am a little stumped on how to market LGBTQ books especially f/f or books with trans characters.
> 
> Where do you promo your books?


Hi!

Well, I'm in m/m and the experience won't be quite the same. I'm sorry to say that f/f and trans are a smaller niche. On the bright side - just being in the lesbian and trans romance categories on Amazon will target your readers pretty successfully. Those are very small categories in terms of total books right now - so it should be a great place to get your books noticed. Do the best new release push you can and you should make Hot New Releases in those categories at minimum.

I started a thread on best places to advertise LGBT here:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,221814.0.html

And this is a great thread to read through top-to-bottom also.

I've had some success promoting my M/Ms in some non-lgbt-specific places. Depending on how your books are focused, you might keep that in mind. I write romance - I market to romance readers. I know there are fantasy authors etc with LGBT characters who do the same in their genres.

Welcome and good luck!


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## authorcharity (Nov 18, 2012)

I write M/M Romance. All my book are priced $0.99 during preorder and for the first 2 days of release. Then I raise the price dependent upon length.


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## FireBadTreePretty (May 24, 2015)

IreneP said:


> Hi!
> 
> Well, I'm in m/m and the experience won't be quite the same. I'm sorry to say that f/f and trans are a smaller niche. On the bright side - just being in the lesbian and trans romance categories on Amazon will target your readers pretty successfully. Those are very small categories in terms of total books right now - so it should be a great place to get your books noticed. Do the best new release push you can and you should make Hot New Releases in those categories at minimum.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much! This is super useful advice. I have been doing some market research on f/f today and it does seem like there are people who are doing well especially the contemporary or mystery romance genres. I appreciate the link. That is now my next stop on the internet.

Authorcharity: That sounds like a good strategy!


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## ParKer Bryant (Apr 16, 2016)

Good evening!!!

My name is ParKer and I am a new author. I wrote my first book in December 2015 called Remnants of the Beginning and it's all LGBT, bi-sexual, straight-gay, lesbian and in between. I really think it is a dope ass story mixed with a little poetry/journal entries. I tell shit like it is and how it was being a lesbian in the early 2000s. I am excited about learning the industry and look forward to becoming a huge supporter of other LGBT authors. 


www.theparkerbryant.com


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

First, I'd like to thank Shei for opening the topic here! *big hugs*


There have been a few social groups & web pages like this, but without a proper explanation upfront on what they mean, unless you join in and then find out. I'm glad the confusion is killed, and that both versions apply for support here (Authors who write LGBT characters/stories, and LGBT authors who write stories who may or may not have LGBT characters in them). I kind of fall in the latter category. But yeah, I do have LGBT characters. Not in every story, and usually they are not the protagonists, but they're there and provide great supplements to the major characters. I do on the other hand have several stories where the protagonists are LGBT, but they're mostly WIPs and are far from being anywhere near publishing state. I write in all the flavors of the speculative fiction spectrum and so do my non-hetero characters come in different flavors of the LGBT rainbow.


There's a group on FB about YA writers from kboards, and another one about fantasy writers from kboards. Maybe we could make a Kboards LGBT authors/fiction FB group too? Just an idea.


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## ParKer Bryant (Apr 16, 2016)

Hey Guys and Gals, 

I wanted to know if anyone knew about LGBT authors conferences in the us? You can email me at [email protected] with links and what not. 

Thanks


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## kswalker (Apr 26, 2013)

Hi, I mostly lurk on Kboards, but I thought I would introduce myself here. I'm a bisexual author who almost always includes LGBT characters because I can't really imagine stories without them. I'm not a new author (started self-publishing three years ago) but I'm still in "prawny" status.

I haven't heard many negative reactions to having LGBT content to my work except I think I've had one or two comments about the bisexual character in my YA series. Some kind of handwringing like "I don't think this is appropriate for teens" that I basically ignored. However, I also worry that there isn't a very big market for my work, either. I'm not writing romance or another big genre like mystery/thrillers. Fantasy is already a smaller group of readers, and LGBT fantasy feels like a really small niche. In fact, I realized that one of my free novellas is ranked on the LGBT Fantasy list because there's only 45 total in that category. It would be exciting to be in a niche if there was a demand, but it doesn't seem like there is. I do hope that straight people will read and enjoy my books too, as fantasy novels that just happen to have LGBT characters, but are there really no LGBT people out there who are fantasy readers? If there are, clearly I don't know how to reach them.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

kswalker said:


> I haven't heard many negative reactions to having LGBT content to my work except I think I've had one or two comments about the bisexual character in my YA series. Some kind of handwringing like "I don't think this is appropriate for teens" that I basically ignored.


Welcome! I think it is super important for bisexuals to be represented in YA. I know so many people who feel their sexuality is misunderstood or denied. For young people to see characters like themselves represented in the books they read has to be so validating for them.


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## FireBadTreePretty (May 24, 2015)

kswalker said:


> It would be exciting to be in a niche if there was a demand, but it doesn't seem like there is. I do hope that straight people will read and enjoy my books too, as fantasy novels that just happen to have LGBT characters, but are there really no LGBT people out there who are fantasy readers? If there are, clearly I don't know how to reach them.


Have you fiddled around with your categories?

Yesterday when I was book browsing, I was looking at the stats at the #1 paid book in lesbian romance. Its at #622 paid in kindle store. There is a demand for LGBT but you have to market to them.

#1 The Protector by Bridget Essex (vampire/urban fantasy)
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #622 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#1 in Books > Romance > Lesbian Romance
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Lesbian Fiction
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender eBooks > Romance > Lesbian Romance

All of Essex's also boughts direct to LGBT/Lesbian books and she shows up in other lesbian fiction bestsellers. And the blurb always makes it clear that here be lesbians. And it seems like serials do better for M/M than F/F. The majority of the lesbian bestsellers are longer books. This is a lesbian case study but I think that there is more likely to be f/f readership overlap for stories with bisexual women than m/m readership.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> This is a lesbian case study but I think that there is more likely to be f/f readership overlap for stories with bisexual women than m/m readership.


The trope of someone having their first experience with another woman is _extremely_ popular, but someone actively bisexual who dates men as part of the book would alienate a significant portion of your audience. Men need to be offstage and nobody in the les-rom market wants to see someone actually being intimate with a guy.


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## A.E. Wasp (Jan 24, 2015)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> The trope of someone having their first experience with another woman is _extremely_ popular, but someone actively bisexual who dates men as part of the book would alienate a significant portion of your audience. Men need to be offstage and nobody in the les-rom market wants to see someone actually being intimate with a guy.


As a lesbian, older lesbian (okay, fine, I'm 49), I have to agree with you. I don't mind if it was in the past, everybody has a life. Or if it's an OMG I think I'm in love with a woman for the first time but I'm dating/married to/living with a man right now (thought that is not my favorite). But if something is marketed as Lesbian Romance, that's what I want to see.

I don't even care if the characters identify as bi-sexual, but the romance should be between the women. And no het sex, please.  Takes me right out of the story.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

So if the "first time" isn't your favorite trope. Let me guess. It's the second chance?


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## BookishDreams (Apr 12, 2016)

IreneP said:


> Welcome! I think it is super important for bisexuals to be represented in YA. I know so many people who feel their sexuality is misunderstood or denied. For young people to see characters like themselves represented in the books they read has to be so validating for them.


Couldn't agree more! I always felt like I needed to categorize myself back in my childhood and teens when I was still figuring out why the heck I'm attracted to all genders. I think it's awesome that you get gay and lesbian characters in YA or even kid lit., but there truly should be more bisexuals in there as well. Would certainly make me feel less like an oddball child.

P.S. Not to mention that even now, reading adult novels, I always run to my husband shouting happy noises when I find a bi character  Always feels like such a win


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## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

@kswalker - I've seen people search for fantasy with LGBT elements in it rather LGBT fiction > fantasy. Perhaps like others said, tweaking the categories may produce better results.


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## A.E. Wasp (Jan 24, 2015)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> So if the "first time" isn't your favorite trope. Let me guess. It's the second chance?


Oh, I'm a huge fan of first time. 

Just the character being married at the time hits a *little* too close to home, specially if there are kids involved, and then makes me think of how just difficult and life changing that is and unless that's what I want to read, it puts me too firmly into my head and out of the story.

Now first time in general? Big fan. Subsequent times also. But, ah, friends to lover is a favorite. Rekindled after being together in the wrong place/wrong time. The 'you were a dick to me in high school' but now I know why. Lots of things. Things that have never happened to me in real life.


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## FireBadTreePretty (May 24, 2015)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> The trope of someone having their first experience with another woman is _extremely_ popular, but someone actively bisexual who dates men as part of the book would alienate a significant portion of your audience. Men need to be offstage and nobody in the les-rom market wants to see someone actually being intimate with a guy.


Actively bisexual is not a great way to describe a sexual orientation/identity. You don't stop being bisexual depending on the gender of your current partner. I get what your saying about the market though.

In any case, Kswalker was worried about a potential lack of demand from lgbtq readers so I pointed a success that was most relevant for a book with a bisexual woman character. I am not saying that her book will be a les rom hit, but that there are readers. There are lgbtq readers that shot a book into the top 1,000. An M/M case study wouldn't be applicable.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Hey, y'all - I'm trying to thing of ways to describe my upcoming release.

If I said, "Sookie Stackhouse meets Will and Patrick" would anyone know what I meant?


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I wouldn't.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

IreneP said:


> Hey, y'all - I'm trying to thing of ways to describe my upcoming release.
> 
> If I said, "Sookie Stackhouse meets Will and Patrick" would anyone know what I meant?


I know who Sookie is, but not the rest.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Shelley K said:


> I know who Sookie is, but not the rest.





HSh said:


> I wouldn't.


Okay - I'll mark that one off the list :-D


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

In case you missed it, two LGBTQ books won RITA awards last night for the first time in history.

One was also self-published:

Contemporary Romance mid-length
Him by Sarina Bowen and Elle Kennedy
Self-published
Edie Danford, editor

Erotic Romance
For Real: A Spires Story by Alexis Hall
Riptide Publishing
Sarah Lyons, editor


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## Michele_Mills (Apr 8, 2015)

IreneP said:


> In case you missed it, two LGBTQ books won RITA awards last night for the first time in history.
> 
> One was also self-published:
> 
> ...


 I know! I'm so excited! Alexis Hall is my friend so I'm so proud I'm bursting. I was watching it last night live because RWA was streaming the event on their website. Alexis Hall's editor, Sarah Lyons presented a beautiful speech to commemorate. Here's the text of what she said for anyone who missed it. I'm 99% certain RWA will have the whole ceremony up on Youtube soon if anyone wants to watch.

Here's what Sarah has posted on her FB concerning her speech:

So, last night, at the National Conference of the Romance Writers of America, a book I edited, FOR REAL, by the incomparable, inimitable, stunningly talented Alexis Hall, won a RITA Award. This award is like the Oscar, the Pulitzer, the Hugo of the Romance world. And this is only the second year that queer romance has been nominated. And the first time (or two for the night) that queer romance won. And as such, I felt it was kind of important to say some things. So here they are, here's my acceptance speech (yes, editors get acknowledged too and also get to give an acceptance speech).

On behalf of Riptide Publishing, thank you to RWA for this honor.

Thank you to Alexis Hall, who gave me such an exquisite book to work with. Your writing is unlike anything else. There's a reason it has the most real estate on my arms.

Thank you to those women back in the 70s who wrote Kirk / Spock fan fiction and found ways to share it with each other pre Internet.

Thank you to the pioneers of digital Publishing, who as we know, were all in romance, many of in queer romance, and made it possible for readers to find what they were looking for.

Thank you to all the authors and readers who know that queer people across the rainbow spectrum deserve our own happy endings too and demand that they be written and published.

And while all you brilliant writers out there can and do imagine and write anything with sensitivity and truth, thank you to all the ‪#‎ownvoices‬ authors, queer and trans, brown and black, who know that the right and opportunity to tell our stories and have our voices heard is so so important.

Happy Pride, y'all. And thank you again.


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## David Greene (Oct 16, 2010)

I've been around Kindleboards for several years but never happened upon this thread until today. My books all have gay or bisexual characters.

One note I have to pass along is to be aware that some advertising/listing promotion sites won't take LGBT books.

I received an email titled "PROBLEM with your submission" from *eBookLister* last week:
_Your listing titled "Unmentionables: A Novel" (B003AQBBXG) - submitted to eBookLister has a problem that prohibits it from being listed on our site. The problem is noted as follows:

We do not accept Gay/Lesbian submissions._

What I find amusing about this is that the tone of the email makes it sound as if a computer innocently scanned my submission for any problems and then detected a problem which is carefully "noted" -- all very impersonal.

Anyway ... skip eBookLister if you have any LGBT characters in your story, because they are checking for problems!


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Hi David!

I had the same experience with ebooklister.

Also, a few people have wondered if ENT has an "unofficial" policy.

Here's a thread for places that we've found to be good fits for one reason or another. Fortunately, most sites don't discriminate like this.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,221814.0/all.html


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Michele_Mills said:


> Thank you to Alexis Hall, who gave me such an exquisite book to work with. Your writing is unlike anything else. There's a reason it has the most real estate on my arms.


He really is a brilliant writer, and I'm so, so happy he won. 

Sarina Bowen and Elle Kennedy, of course. But I haven't had a chance to read their book yet, so I'm naturally biased.


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## David Greene (Oct 16, 2010)

> Also, a few people have wondered if ENT has an "unofficial" policy.
> 
> Here's a thread for places that we've found to be good fits for one reason or another. Fortunately, most sites don't discriminate like this.
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,221814.0/all.html


Thanks for the list of promotion sites, Irene. Very helpful!

BTW, I did get accepted for an ENT promotion once for my book _Detonate_ which has a character who describes himself as "half gay/half straight" in the blurb. Of course during the storyline in _Detonate_ he is mostly in the straight half, so maybe ENT didn't notice.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

David Greene said:


> Thanks for the list of promotion sites, Irene. Very helpful!
> 
> BTW, I did get accepted for an ENT promotion once for my book _Detonate_ which has a character who describes himself as "half gay/half straight" in the blurb. Of course during the storyline in _Detonate_ he is mostly in the straight half, so maybe ENT didn't notice.


Congrats on the ENT. Be great if our fears were proved unfounded.


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## Shiriluna Nott (Aug 26, 2014)

I was having a terrible time getting accepted by ENT (with an LGBT fantasy book that had been run by BookBub, nonetheless), but finally ENT did feature the book after maybe... six or seven attempts?

Results were mediocre at best though (I usually pull the same number of free downloads with a $5 BKnights ad), so I don't know if I'd go through the hassle of submitting to ENT again.


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## Michele_Mills (Apr 8, 2015)

Correction! Tiffany Reisz- The Saint won a RITA in 2015, the first LGBTQ romance to do so, ever.

For Real and Him were the first m/m romances to win, ever. Here's a post on the clarification:
http://www.quicunquevult.com/notes-and-corrections


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Omg - I stand corrected.

I'm still thrilled for all the authors and the LGBTQIA+ community as a whole, though


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## Luke Winters (Mar 29, 2016)

There is a site for F/F fiction that my better half has just set up. It's in the early stages, but looking good so far. Anything that's decently written and F/F is welcome there. She's all over Twitter at the moment if you wanted to get in touch with her (@femmefic), or just ping me a note and I'll pass it on.

http://www.femmefic.com


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## Alex Anders (Apr 11, 2012)

What a great idea for a thread. I am bisexual and recently I decided to focus exclusively on M/M/F bisexual romance. Since I do youtube videos it seems an obvious choice now, but took me a while to realize how popular MMF stories are and how many readers on my mailling list identify MMF as one of their favorite genres.


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## BookishDreams (Apr 12, 2016)

Alex Anders said:


> What a great idea for a thread. I am bisexual and recently I decided to focus exclusively on M/M/F bisexual romance. Since I do youtube videos it seems an obvious choice now, but took me a while to realize how popular MMF stories are and how many readers on my mailling list identify MMF as one of their favorite genres.


YAY! Sorry, I don't really have anything else to say except that I'm alway so excited to see another bisexual author who writes about bisexual characters 

There aren't nearly enough of us out there.

Nice to hear that you've found your readers!


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## Jean E (Aug 29, 2011)

Great to hear of your success.  Nice when it comes together.  I have just embarked on a lesbian detective series and am co-authoring with my partner of thirty years.  We put the first one out earlier this year and are putting the finishing touches to the second one now.

Only just spotted this thread and have really enjoyed reading about what everyone is doing and getting some great advice.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## Jean E (Aug 29, 2011)

Thanks, Judy.  Yeah, Angela has been an avid reader of the genre for decades but never came across one set in the West of Ireland where we live now, so that's where we set it.  The title of our book, from Clare to Here, is the title of a popular folk song and the dastardly deed occurs at a famous beauty spot overlooking the Atlantic ocean.

If you did embark on a similar series yourself, where would you set it?  Arizona, perhaps.  I've never been there but I am picturing cowgirls, amazing reddish-rocky scenery, a high bright sun and everywhere is dry as dust.  I am probably way off the mark 

Anyway, good luck with whatever you are up to too!


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## Alex Anders (Apr 11, 2012)

GajaJKos said:


> YAY! Sorry, I don't really have anything else to say except that I'm alway so excited to see another bisexual author who writes about bisexual characters
> 
> There aren't nearly enough of us out there.
> 
> Nice to hear that you've found your readers!


Hey GajajKos! Hey Jean E!
It's nice to meet you both!

And I wouldn't say that I've found my readership quite yet. I'm still at the beginning of introducing myself to readers in the MMF subgenre. I released a couple of books so far and my werewolf/BDSM/MM readers who also happen to like MMF bought it and then it died. But now I've decided to play the long game since MMF bisexual stuff is my life.

No more chasing the latest chart toppers for me. It nice to completely enjoy what I'm writing again.

GajajKos,
I agree 100%! There are definitely not enough of us.


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## noirhvy (Dec 29, 2015)

I'm flogging a story about a dyed-in-the-wool macho Private Eye character in Hollywood in the 1940s who keeps running into colorful locals, like the lesbian film Super Star in the silver lame gown with the opera-length over-the-elbow silver lame gloves that is trying to put bullet holes in Our Hero. It's not a gay or lesbian story but those poeple just happen to be in there an I wish I knew how to let people know who might be interested in such a novel so I can advertise somewhere to get their atention.


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## shunterni (May 2, 2016)

Yeah, noirhvy, I'm with you. My books are dystopian sci-fi, and are more "books with LGBTQ characters" than they are LGBTQ books. They aren't romances and they aren't issue books, so they tend to fall off the radar in some places. My also-boughts are nothing but MM romance, yet it's not a romance, but the people who seem to like it are people who primarily seek out LGBTQ characters. Yet I can't even say which characters are when telling people about my book because that's a major spoiler. It's very frustrating.

I did manage to get an ENT advert, but my books don't really mention anything about LGBTQ in the blurbs because it's not a major plot point in the first third of the novel. So that's not a good example of what they will or won't take.

I've got a more traditional MM romance in the works, though, so hopefully that will prove much easier to find a target audience for.


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## Alex Anders (Apr 11, 2012)

shunterni said:


> Yeah, noirhvy, I'm with you. My books are dystopian sci-fi, and are more "books with LGBTQ characters" than they are LGBTQ books. They aren't romances and they aren't issue books, so they tend to fall off the radar in some places. My also-boughts are nothing but MM romance, yet it's not a romance, but the people who seem to like it are people who primarily seek out LGBTQ characters. Yet I can't even say which characters are when telling people about my book because that's a major spoiler. It's very frustrating.
> 
> I did manage to get an ENT advert, but my books don't really mention anything about LGBTQ in the blurbs because it's not a major plot point in the first third of the novel. So that's not a good example of what they will or won't take.


Hi Shunterni,
I had a similar dilemma with my books 'Dying for the Rose' and 'It Runs'. What I did was subtitle them as "Bisexual-Friendly" ie. "A Bisexual-Friendly Romantic Suspense".

I also have bisexual romances, but the way I differentiate between the two categories is; a bisexual romance is a story about a romance that wouldn't have occurred if one of the characters weren't bisexual. A bisexual-friendly book or romance is a story where one of the main characters are bisexual, but their sexual orientation doesn't have a substantial effect on the twists and turns of the story.

Perhaps you can do something similar.

EDIT: BTW Shunterni, did you make money from the ENT advert?


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

I think the first couple of books I publish will be m/f but after that I plan to write both m/f and m/m with the same pen name. I write primarily fantasy romance, with properly branded covers and blurbs I don't think there will be any confusion.


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## shunterni (May 2, 2016)

Alex Anders said:


> Hi Shunterni,
> I had a similar dilemma with my books 'Dying for the Rose' and 'It Runs'. What I did was subtitle them as "Bisexual-Friendly" ie. "A Bisexual-Friendly Romantic Suspense".
> 
> I also have bisexual romances, but the way I differentiate between the two categories is; a bisexual romance is a story about a romance that wouldn't have occurred if one of the characters weren't bisexual. A bisexual-friendly book or romance is a story where one of the main characters are bisexual, but their sexual orientation doesn't have a substantial effect on the twists and turns of the story.
> ...


It's a thought, but because my books literally have no romance in them, I think it would be a bit misleading. I might stick something in the blurb, though.

And no, I didn't make money from ENT, but I only had one book out at the time, so that's not a huge surprise, either. Who knows how many of those readers followed through with the sequels.


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## Alex Anders (Apr 11, 2012)

shunterni said:


> It's a thought, but because my books literally have no romance in them, I think it would be a bit misleading. I might stick something in the blurb, though.
> 
> And no, I didn't make money from ENT, but I only had one book out at the time, so that's not a huge surprise, either. Who knows how many of those readers followed through with the sequels.


Shunterni,
Just so you know, 'It Runs' is a 'Bisexual-Friendly Supernatural Thriller', not a romance. The term 'Bisexual-Friendly' just indicates that bisexuals might like the story.

I'm sorry to hear about ENT. Thanks for the insight.


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## Jean E (Aug 29, 2011)

Nice to meet you too, Alex.  I think you made the right decision when you decided to play the long game and do what you love to do.  It's the same for me.  I love writing with my partner.  It is such a buzz, especially when we are planning the plot and deciding what will befall our characters, be it comical situations, life-threatening danger or relationships on the brink.

Of course, all that is followed  by the struggle to get it noticed out there in the LGBT universe.  But on we go.

Hope it goes well for you.


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## LucasCWheeler (Feb 19, 2015)

I'm glad to have found this thread. I've decided to write M/M Romance and M/M Paranormal Romance on a pen name. I've outlined a bit and it's exciting, but I want to get my real name works done first. I'll be lurking on this thread though. :3


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## MichaelJSea (Jun 2, 2016)

Hey All,

I just discovered this thread and wanted to say. I've knocking around the writing world for going on twenty years now. I traditionally pubbed my first book back in 1999, then a sequel a few years later. A little while after that a friend and I co-founded AfterElton.com which I ran for five years. I'm finally getting back to writing novels, my first love. I got back the rights to my first two books and am republishing them with new titles, new covers, and some moderate rewrites. Anyway, looking forward to getting to know everyone here!

Michael


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## Jean E (Aug 29, 2011)

judygoodwin said:


> Lol well I do plan to set it Arizona, but there won't be any cowgirls or redrock canyons. I plan to have it be a college-age duo on the campus at Arizona State University in Tempe (college town where I grew up). I want to do a nerd/jock type of pairing.
> 
> And yes, it's always dry here. And dusty.


Your setting sounds great. Lots of opportunity for plots and action. And your pairing sounds intriguing. Don't forget to let me know when you get around to writing it. Angela will be delighted, she is always on the look out for another **** detective.

Not so dry here at the moment, it has been raining all day and it won't stop until tomorrow morning. But that's Ireland.


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## MichaelJSea (Jun 2, 2016)

Markus Croft said:


> Welcome! I love M/M Romance and Historical fiction so I'm looking forward to checking it out come November. Good luck with everything and if you feel like it let us know how everything goes with your launch! I'd be curious how big of a pool readers like me are swimming in.


Will do! I've actually got a pretty extensive marketing plan all teed up. Fingers crossed~


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

I think I was in this thread once. So I'm in here again. 

So much Ghey.


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## Erick Cameron (Sep 22, 2016)

Hello all,

I have recently discovered Kboards and this thread .

I am an attorney by day but write M/M erotica by night (well ok I often write during the day as well). I have recently published two books. "Bi Shadow" and "Tropical Passion." Both are part of what I am calling my "Erotic Tale Series." Written in memoir format, they are based on actual events in my life, primarily my youth which although not all that long ago feels like an eternity... 

Of course, I take Artistic License (and a Pen Name) to maintain the privacy of all involved and to expand the stories out. Anyone who has ever questioned their sexual orientation or been in love with someone of their own gender, even while they resisted it, will relate.

Part of the books are self-discovery, I am a bisexual who is now in a loving & committed monogamous heterosexual relationship (it is not as complicated as it sounds). Mostly, however, they are fascinating tales, not just about a sexual coming of age but really of love itself. I hope to continue on the "Erotic Tale Series," but also plan on expanding on to other Gay & Bisexual Romance and erotic fiction.

I am glad there is a forum here for authors in this genre as I get a little squeamish talking about this topic or my books in other threads, although I have to say I have found the Writer's Cafe to be very open to Artistic Expression as well as a welcoming environment.

Erick


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## T. Scott (Mar 28, 2013)

Hello guys and gals, 
I just came across this thread and maybe you can advise me on cover ideas for my new book. My main character Cedric is overweight and has multiple self-esteem issues. He has unrequited love for an educated and conservative guy. He also has a hot Dominican hustler on the side. The genre for this story would be Drama/Romance. Putting an overweight man on the cover is not something you see in this kind of genre. I need inspiration to maybe show either one or the two of the secondary characters on the cover but my problem is how can I include an element of Cedric without showing him on the cover. That being said I am open to any ideas or those that are to the contrary.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Well, it is a very good read, and from a well established author. I loved it. 

A cover can also be more abstract and do well, if it's still appealing. If you don't find the right model, or don't want a person on your cover. It's less common, but it can work.

http://natashasnowdesigns.com/ has done some covers that are more abstract and still work great. I do prefer covers with people on when possible, but it's not absolutely necessary.


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## Jean E (Aug 29, 2011)

Not a fan of people on covers myself.  I don't want a picture of a character in my head before I even open the book.  I would prefer something which represents a vital part of the story or some aspect of the atmosphere.


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## T. Scott (Mar 28, 2013)

Markus Croft said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Gay-Romance/zgbs/digital-text/6487829011
> 
> "The Weight Of It All" has been on the top gay Amazon list (top of the top 100) for a while now, as I type it's currently at 14 but it was number 1 for many days. On the cover... an overweight guy sitting alone on a bench. Seems to me people would be okay seeing a less ripped, if clothed, torso on a romance cover. Doesn't surprise me, with BBW being so popular, why not BBM/M?


 Markus I recently came across The Weight Of It All on Amazon and the picture of the guy sitting on the bench I saw on shutter stock. I didn't know there was a BBM/M category. I will look into it. Thanks for the heads u


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## T. Scott (Mar 28, 2013)

HSh said:


> Well, it is a very good read, and from a well established author. I loved it.
> 
> A cover can also be more abstract and do well, if it's still appealing. If you don't find the right model, or don't want a person on your cover. It's less common, but it can work.
> 
> http://natashasnowdesigns.com/ has done some covers that are more abstract and still work great. I do prefer covers with people on when possible, but it's not absolutely necessary.


 This is something I am considering. Btw I really like the cover of your book Foxed. You don't see their whole faces so people can make up in their minds what the character really looks like based on your description.


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## T. Scott (Mar 28, 2013)

Jean E said:


> Not a fan of people on covers myself. I don't want a picture of a character in my head before I even open the book. I would prefer something which represents a vital part of the story or some aspect of the atmosphere.


 I might have to do that seeing as it's hard to find the right stock picture. The unfortunate thing about them is that you sometimes see the same picture on somebody else's book cover.


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## MichaelJSea (Jun 2, 2016)

As you can see from two covers below, I'm also not a fan of faces on covers. I find them too distracting and ruin my mental image of the character.


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## Lia Cooper (Jan 28, 2014)

Who do you guys use for editing? i write m/m romance and this seems to be a topic that a lot of editors won't work with =/


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Lia Cooper said:


> Who do you guys use for editing? i write m/m romance and this seems to be a topic that a lot of editors won't work with =/


You should quiery at larksandkatydids.com . They have a very liberal team there, and one of the team is LGBTQ themselves


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Carol Davis will edit gay romance, but not erotica: https://caroldavisauthor.com/a-better-look-editing-services/


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## heynonny (Mar 12, 2014)

I've been very happy with Beth Balmanno at By the Book Editing:

http://www.bythebookediting.com/


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## ForeverSam (Sep 12, 2016)

Hi all...

Ironic I would find this thread today. I wrote a f/f novel (with multiple other same-sex couples) and submitted to Kindle Scout and just found out today it was rejected despite having FANTASTIC stats (6.5k page views and 709 hours in hot and trending) and I honestly can't help but feel that it was rejected due to the fact that it's an LGBT novel, but I haven't really been able to say that anywhere because, well, mentioning latent homophobia tends to make people uncomfortable. I just really needed to say it somewhere.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

ForeverSam said:


> Hi all...
> 
> Ironic I would find this thread today. I wrote a f/f novel (with multiple other same-sex couples) and submitted to Kindle Scout and just found out today it was rejected despite having FANTASTIC stats (6.5k page views and 709 hours in hot and trending) and I honestly can't help but feel that it was rejected due to the fact that it's an LGBT novel, but I haven't really been able to say that anywhere because, well, mentioning latent homophobia tends to make people uncomfortable. I just really needed to say it somewhere.


I know that feeling exactly. It could have been the LGBT thread, it could have been something totally unrelated, it's hard to know  All we can do is just keep being awesome. And multicolored


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

They definitely don't go just by stats, I know that much. I don't know if latent homophobic comes into it, but I don't blame you for feeling that way. 



T. Scott said:


> Btw I really like the cover of your book Foxed. You don't see their whole faces so people can make up in their minds what the character really looks like based on your description.


Oh, thanks by the way!  It definitely wasn't one I made myself.  I have maybe three total covers I made myself that actually look _fairly_ professional.


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## ForeverSam (Sep 12, 2016)

I do know they don't go just by stats, but it's really, really hard not to feel that way when you have people with less time in hot and trending and less page views getting chosen over you.

I'm trying not to be bitter or angry or break down crying. It's just....really hard.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I've wanted to post something there before...and I've definitely voted for the LGBT stuff I've seen (like Bonnie Dee had something posted awhile ago), but realistically, I can't justify the "chance." I don't think Amazon imprints have ever done any genre fiction about gay people. (IDK if they've published literary fiction with LGBT...I don't read literary stuff enough to find out.)

These are their imprints: https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=s9_acss_ft_ki_x_nav_link1?docId=1003018741&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=33ZHVG8H2XKG0ECBNCN4&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=2356427302&pf_rd_i=1000664761

They have an imprint for Christian fiction (mostly romance). They have the Montlake imprint for "regular" (aka non-Christian, straight-only) romance. As far as I know, they aren't interested in getting into gay romance, lesbian romance, or any other LGBT fiction. That's the sad fact.

Perhaps if it ever gets to be enough of a moneymaker, they'll dip their toes into the water, but I honestly am not holding my breath.

I'm sorry you got your hopes up, and dashed. The good news is, when you self-pub, you already know there's a lot of interest for you book (or you wouldn't have gotten so many votes!).

I hope you feel better soon and get through this.


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## Lia Cooper (Jan 28, 2014)

First off, thanks everyone for the speedy responses about editors. I'm in limbo atm with the woman i'd planned to work with this winter and I'm feeling quite relieved to have some names to query should the need arise next month

Secondly, 


ForeverSam said:


> I do know they don't go just by stats, but it's really, really hard not to feel that way when you have people with less time in hot and trending and less page views getting chosen over you.
> 
> I'm trying not to be bitter or angry or break down crying. It's just....really hard.


that is very heartbreaking. *hug* it's hard and frustrating when there's all of us tiptoeing around here trying not to accidentally mislabel someone (or many someones) as latently homophobic when it seems like a lot of doors get slammed in our faces--both historically and as an ongoing issue. Hsh makes a good point that Amazon doesn't have an overtly queer-friendly imprint, but do Kindle Scout books go thru their imprints? I thought they had different contracts (never looked into it myself).

Did amazon provide any feedback as to why your book was eliminated from the Scout program?


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## ForeverSam (Sep 12, 2016)

Lia Cooper said:


> First off, thanks everyone for the speedy responses about editors. I'm in limbo atm with the woman i'd planned to work with this winter and I'm feeling quite relieved to have some names to query should the need arise next month
> 
> Secondly,
> that is very heartbreaking. *hug* it's hard and frustrating when there's all of us tiptoeing around here trying not to accidentally mislabel someone (or many someones) as latently homophobic when it seems like a lot of doors get slammed in our faces--both historically and as an ongoing issue. Hsh makes a good point that Amazon doesn't have an overtly queer-friendly imprint, but do Kindle Scout books go thru their imprints? I thought they had different contracts (never looked into it myself).
> ...


Sorry for the delay, I've been having a rough couple days. But no, they didn't, and it's pretty much robbed me of any motivation to go forward with this book so it all just sucks all around.

I've talked to quite a few people about it and they're just as bewildered as I am about why it wasn't picked - the writing was strong, the story was interesting, the stats were amazing. By all means everyone over in the Scout thread expected me to get it. Which just makes me feel worse and more suspicious about what their actual reasons for rejecting it were.


----------



## T. Scott (Mar 28, 2013)

MichaelJSea said:


> As you can see from two covers below, I'm also not a fan of faces on covers. I find them too distracting and ruin my mental image of the character.


 I love your book covers so much I want to steal the concept (lol). I do have a silhouette of my main character that I'm pitching ideas on how to use effectively like you have.


----------



## MichaelJSea (Jun 2, 2016)

T. Scott said:


> I love your book covers so much I want to steal the concept (lol). I do have a silhouette of my main character that I'm pitching ideas on how to use effectively like you have.


Glad you like the covers! A lot of blood, sweat, money and tears went into creating them!


----------



## Jean E (Aug 29, 2011)

ForeverSam said:


> Sorry for the delay, I've been having a rough couple days. But no, they didn't, and it's pretty much robbed me of any motivation to go forward with this book so it all just sucks all around.
> 
> I've talked to quite a few people about it and they're just as bewildered as I am about why it wasn't picked - the writing was strong, the story was interesting, the stats were amazing. By all means everyone over in the Scout thread expected me to get it. Which just makes me feel worse and more suspicious about what their actual reasons for rejecting it were.


Sorry to hear that you are having such a bad time at the moment. But I am glad that you still believe in your work, that is so important. It sounds too, as if lots of other people believe in you as a writer. Try and take that forward. Don't let this disappointment rob you of your will to continue. It is tough. But you should keep writing. I think your books should be in the world. It sounds like lots of others agree.


----------



## Ariel Eaves (Oct 24, 2016)

Hi everyone! Just thought I'd pop my head in here as I'm new. I write MM paranormal romance (though I want to branch out into other subgenres once I'm more established).



MichaelJSea said:


> Hey All,
> 
> I just discovered this thread and wanted to say. I've knocking around the writing world for going on twenty years now. I traditionally pubbed my first book back in 1999, then a sequel a few years later. A little while after that a friend and I co-founded AfterElton.com which I ran for five years. I'm finally getting back to writing novels, my first love. I got back the rights to my first two books and am republishing them with new titles, new covers, and some moderate rewrites. Anyway, looking forward to getting to know everyone here!
> 
> Michael


Oh wow, I remember finding that website years ago. Funny how these things come back round!


----------



## Lia Cooper (Jan 28, 2014)

ForeverSam said:


> Sorry for the delay, I've been having a rough couple days. But no, they didn't, and it's pretty much robbed me of any motivation to go forward with this book so it all just sucks all around.
> 
> I've talked to quite a few people about it and they're just as bewildered as I am about why it wasn't picked - the writing was strong, the story was interesting, the stats were amazing. By all means everyone over in the Scout thread expected me to get it. Which just makes me feel worse and more suspicious about what their actual reasons for rejecting it were.


Don't let it get your down! if anything the experience suggests that there IS an audience for your book out there even if the bigwigs in Scout don't recognize that (i feel like this is a common theme with LGBTQIA fiction XD ). I hope you use it as motivation to keep writing more books and find a place to publish them, either thru a different press on full indie.


----------



## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

"Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic"

So, I had to search for this thread. It seems every year no-one posts in it for six months, then bursts of activity?

Hadn't realized the rainbows turn people into hibernating bears - oh no!


----------



## Trans-Human (Apr 22, 2015)

Aeryn Leigh said:


> "Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
> Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic"
> 
> So, I had to search for this thread. It seems every year no-one posts in it for six months, then bursts of activity?
> ...


We have to get our beauty sleep somehow :3


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Aeryn Leigh said:


> Hadn't realized the rainbows turn people into hibernating bears - oh no!


[yawns]

Okay, I could actually use some advice.

My writing partner just released a novella that's ... niche ... even within LGBTQIA. It's f/trans-f, 20th century historical set in New Orleans, romantic with some beautiful love scenes, but definitely not erotica.

We first put it in trans-romance - but honestly it doesn't really look like most of the best-selling books over there. We're doing a little better marketing in lesbian romance and literary fiction.

Anybody have any advice for getting this book some readers?



And in case you're wondering my interest, this book is theoretically a far prequel in a world we write together. (Plus I adore the story and want to see it succeed).


----------



## Brian Olsen (Jan 13, 2013)

Hey everyone! I'm glad this thread resurfaced. I'm exhibiting at Flame Con in NYC August 19-20, and I'm considering proposing a panel on self-publishing prose. Unfortunately, the Con is very heavily geared towards comics and I'm having a hard time finding other self-published prose exhibitors (there were I think three of us last year, but so far this year I'm the only one on the web site). Would anyone here be interested in participating? I'm looking for folks with some experience under their belt - the goal is to give advice and tips on how to self-publish, rather than talk about our books (although there'll be a little opportunity for self-promotion, obviously). You don't need to be an exhibitor at Flame Con, but you would need to be in NYC that weekend. All are welcome but I would especially love to get some diversity on the panel, so women, trans, POC authors especially welcome. Send me a message if you're interested!


----------



## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

How have I never seen this thread before?! Thank you so much for starting this, Shei!

Bi author here. A couple of my books have LGBTQIA+ rep. I'm currently writing an f/f romance in which one of my heroines is bi. There aren't nearly enough f/f romances or bi protagonists out there. My partner is a dude, so I'd really like to write more romances about bi women married to men, too, because I'm still queer regardless. I feel like a lot of people don't realize that your relationship does not define your sexuality.

I have so many ideas for books and not nearly enough hands to write them all right now. &#128514;



IreneP said:


> [yawns]
> 
> Okay, I could actually use some advice.
> 
> ...


Hmn, tricky. I feel like the LGBT categories in general on Amazon are tricky. For example, when you go into bi romance, there's a lot of menage erotica -- which is great if you're poly and looking for rep, but I feel like these titles are often just fetishizing bi and poly people. I feel the same about the m/m romance category, too. I'm trying not to drive myself too crazy thinking about marketing right now and just write the book, but marketing is an important hat we have to wear, so it's hard not to.

Have you tried putting it in historical romance too? Maybe under your keywords? Those are popular right now, and even though it's super niche, I think it's something trans and f/f readers will really appreciate. (I know I wanna read it!) You can look around on Twitter for trans book bloggers and reach out to them to see if they'd like to review or feature it. I'd also do a series of blog posts about it -- bonus content to draw in readers, like playlists, character sketches/interviews, excerpts, behind the scenes of writing it, etc.


----------



## LittleFox (Jan 3, 2015)

I don't know how I missed this thread! 

I'm bi, and I write UF with LGBT+ leads. Right now I have the Ink Born series with a gay protag' and primarily gay cast. I'll be starting my next UF series with a bi female lead later this year.  

@IreneP - I'd try historical romance, I'm far from an expert but the few hist rom readers I follow have been really positive about other LGBT+ stories. It's worth a shot.


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

elizabethbarone said:


> How have I never seen this thread before?! Thank you so much for starting this, Shei!
> 
> Bi author here. A couple of my books have LGBTQIA+ rep. I'm currently writing an f/f romance in which one of my heroines is bi. There aren't nearly enough f/f romances or bi protagonists out there. My partner is a dude, so I'd really like to write more romances about bi women married to men, too, because I'm still queer regardless. I feel like a lot of people don't realize that your relationship does not define your sexuality.
> 
> ...


Hi Elizabeth!

I hear you about the bi category - it is where all the menage/poly winds up. Which, I have nothing against those books and it makes a sort of sense, but if you are looking for bi representation in a single, paired relationship it gets lost.

We've got CoH in historical fiction, but I just realized did NOT hit historical romance (you'd think it would hit automatically with our keywords). The problem is that historical romance is a pretty large category, so I don't see it getting a lot more eyes with current ranks. Liv's reached out to a number of bloggers and they have been very supportive so far. Beyond that... I'm just not sure how many readers are looking for this book, you know? When I read it I loved it. But it's not something I would have gone searching for. Even ad spends are tricky because ALL THE NICHE.


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

KhaosFoxe said:


> @IreneP - I'd try historical romance, I'm far from an expert but the few hist rom readers I follow have been really positive about other LGBT+ stories. It's worth a shot.


{feels silly} Honestly, I don't know how we aren't already there. We're in romance. We're in historical fiction. You would think the 'zon would get a clue.


----------



## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

tiepoe said:


> So I have a positioning issue with a book I wrote that I hope writers on this thread could offer insight on. My issues are similar to IreneP's and elizabethbarone's except worse. The novel explores internalized oppression and micro-aggression across race, gender, and sexuality. Sounds like a literary novel, right? Well, under the delusion I was being market savvy because everyone knows lit fic is a small market dominated by the big five, I decided to spice up the story with more plot movement and suspense than typical of literary. I adulterated the story so much that it can, with sufficient wedging and cramming, fit into one of the more sedate thriller sub-genres. However, the protagonist is bi and two important supporting characters are also queer. The sex scenes are sufficiently explicit to be R-rated but serve an emotional role rather than an erotic one. Finally, both the cover and title are literary.
> 
> The meager sales the book has generated after years in the market come exclusively from thriller ads. I have no idea where non-ad linked sales arise, but they only amount to two books.
> 
> ...


It seems like you answered your own koan. If "Rewriting isn't an option both because I'm DONE with the story and because it's probably my best work" means "meager sales the book has generated after years in the market", then why bother wasting more precious time on it? *Just write a new book*. The new book, if it gets lucky, will shine a light on your other body of works. The best form of marketing is the release of a new book. Don't just ask me. Every pro on this board will tell you the same thing.

As for reviews, haters gonna hate. Ignore them. But even then they'd have to find your book first, which as you've stated above, are under ten sales over numerous years. I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Worries will eat you alive, if you give them even a sliver of energy.

Plus, I'm not sure what is so offensive you're apologizing for. For pony's sake, lift up your chin, sqaure-back your pony shoulders, and say after me: STOP APOLOGIZING!

There, feel better?


----------



## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

IreneP said:


> {feels silly} Honestly, I don't know how we aren't already there. We're in romance. We're in historical fiction. You would think the 'zon would get a clue.


Being the biggest bookseller in the world, it's just baffling. The categories are archaic.


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

IreneP said:


> And in case you're wondering my interest, this book is theoretically a far prequel in a world we write together. (Plus I adore the story and want to see it succeed).


Maybe some ads would help. One of the threads I read fairly recently mentioned The Rainbow Shelf as a promo option. I checked them out and they seem to be nothing short of amazing. And the very best part? Unless you are writing M/M, it's totally free to list with them! Their email list is super focused, too, so that may get you some more readers. More readers=higher ranking=more visibilty=more sales.

Good luck with this title. Sounds really cool.


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Avery342 said:


> The Rainbow Shelf as a promo option.


The Rainbow Shelf is awesome and CoH was featured release week. The bump wasn't as good as good as we expect in m/m, but noticeable. And, of course, the price was right.  Also, kudos to them for doing things right and not charging while they build their list. I remember when the m/m newsletter was just starting and I'm more than happy to pay for inclusion there now.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Honestly, I don't think the book is doing badly all things considered and it's gotten rave reviews. I'm super proud of Liv for putting the story out there even though she knew it wasn't exactly "written to market." (Nothing against writing to market, either. So don't pounce - lol)


----------



## Brian Olsen (Jan 13, 2013)

Any good LGBT listings that aren't restricted to romance? I'm writing sci-fi and fantasy with queer protagonists, and have a heck of a time marketing. I got an LGBT Bookbub once, but have been rejected every time since.


----------



## ivyquinn (Mar 23, 2017)

KhaosFoxe said:


> I'm bi, and I write UF with LGBT+ leads. Right now I have the Ink Born series with a gay protag' and primarily gay cast. I'll be starting my next UF series with a bi female lead later this year.
> 
> @IreneP - I'd try historical romance, I'm far from an expert but the few hist rom readers I follow have been really positive about other LGBT+ stories. It's worth a shot.


Hi! I'm a lurker and some time in the summer, I'll be releasing a series of novellas on Amazon that are f/f paranormal romance with shifters as well as cowriting an f/f novella series based around vampires. It's cool to see other writers of LGBT+ representation out there in the indie sphere. I'm also bi and I try and write a range of queer women in my stories.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

tiepoe said:


> There's also the issue of a hater's timing in reviews. A hater that posts a single star review has a much greater effect on marketing for a book that had no prior reviews versus a book that had hundreds of prior reviews.


I think this might be changing. Check out the book from yesterday's Bookbub. amazon.com/dp/B00457WWRS One review. One BAD review. And yes, it's from a big publisher...but that's a pretty big departure from what BB used to require. And there was one not long ago with zero reviews.

My point isn't that you'll get a BB ad with no reviews or bad reviews, but clearly, something is changing. Maybe don't let reviews hold you back too much.


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

tiepoe said:


> Thanks for the reply, Aeryn Leigh. What I'm trying to do is find a way to get more value out of what I've already written. If I write another book, my first question is what will I write. Without a better history on the existing book, the answer is clearly a book without LGBT characters. Pursuing a noble goal of rep or whatever is meaningless if no one reads the work.


Honestly, I'm seeing books in all genres with LGBT characters these days. I know our vampire series has a broader appeal than just my regular m/m readers. There are always going to be haters, but I see plenty of books doing very well with diverse characters. Maybe the issue is more what you admitted, that you basically manipulated it into some genres to try and improve marketability and it's not really great fit in those places.


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Brian Olsen said:


> Any good LGBT listings that aren't restricted to romance? I'm writing sci-fi and fantasy with queer protagonists, and have a heck of a time marketing. I got an LGBT Bookbub once, but have been rejected every time since.


Fussy Librarian has an LGBT list and I don't think it's romance only.

Besides Fussy and Bookbub, I can't think of any others that have a specifically non-romance LGBT list. You might try just focusing on the SFF aspect, though. We got a nice boost from Patty's SFF promo, for example.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

ivyquinn said:


> Hi! I'm a lurker and some time in the summer, I'll be releasing a series of novellas on Amazon that are f/f paranormal romance with shifters as well as cowriting an f/f novella series based around vampires. It's cool to see other writers of LGBT+ representation out there in the indie sphere. I'm also bi and I try and write a range of queer women in my stories.


Welcome!


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Hey y'all - kind of a late heads-up, but there is an LGBT Instafreebie promo being organized for the end of this month. Deadline to join is the 10th or 100 participants, whichever comes first.

Here's the FB group if you are interested:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1162956327123774/


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Sounds interesting, but I'm not on Facebook and I don't know if I'm ever going to be.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

IreneP said:


> Hey y'all - kind of a late heads-up, but there is an LGBT Instafreebie promo being organized for the end of this month. Deadline to join is the 10th or 100 participants, whichever comes first.
> 
> Here's the FB group if you are interested:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/1162956327123774/


This is cool! Unfortunately my f/f isn't done yet. &#128557; But I'm glad to see so many promo opportunities!


----------



## LucasCWheeler (Feb 19, 2015)

I don't know if anyone will be able to help me with this, but I would like some people with nonbinary identities to weigh in on a couple questions for a future series of mine. The post where I originally made this call is

__
https://160157233098%2Fi-need-help-from-the-lgbtq-community
.


----------



## Teresa Rook (Nov 20, 2016)

Hi, everyone. I'm a bi-ish cis woman, and I just published my first book. My protag is a lesbian and my main love interest will be trans.

I'm about two years out of the closet and have some major impostor syndrome going on. It's felt amazing writing the f/f romantic subplot and I'm super excited to continue it in future books.

So, just...hi!


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Hi, and welcome!

As you can see it's not a busy thread, but folks do check back in from time to time.  

That sounds like an interesting read!


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Hi Teresa - 

Publishing your first book is a huge accomplishment.

Welcome and congrats!


----------



## liamashe (Nov 6, 2016)

After a few weeks around the boards here, I came across this thread today. I wanted to throw my hat into the ring and say hello to my fellow LGBT+ authors. I just finished _Thou Shalt Not Kilt_, my very first novel (hooray!!!) which has several prominent LGBT characters. Right now, it's being perfected with the help of an editor and should be ready for release in September.

The book I'm working on now (10k of 80k words done this week) is _The Earl of Hell''s Waistcoat_, a light thriller starring Emery Vaughn, owner of the eccentric and unapologetically odd Curio City in Savannah, Georgia.

I'm looking forward to see how the demographics fall for each of these series and if I have any bleed though from non-LGBT readers.

Please feel free to say hi, and good luck, everyone, with your writing journeys!

- Liam


----------



## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


----------



## Teresa Rook (Nov 20, 2016)

judygoodwin said:


> Welcome! That's a gorgeous cover. Good luck on the book's success--not a lot of F/F to begin with, so that's a bold endeavor. (MTF or FTM?)


Thanks for the welcomes! And for the cover compliment. She's MTF.

Congrats on finishing, Liam. I hope your edits go well.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Y'all hear about this place? I'm pretty sure it's legit, and we definitely need more places of discoverability. I'm thinking about it.

https://www.queeromanceink.com/


----------



## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

Hi all,

I'm about to publish my first M/M historical (it's A Knight's Tale: Kenilworth) in my sig. I'm a bit nervous because my lesbian historical has always done well, but I wonder if this book will find an audience. It's set in 13th-century England and it's actually quite juicy, but I went for a more conservative cover. Anyway, it's still on preorder and comes out on Tuesday! I loved writing it... I hope that comes across.


----------



## Bookzio.com (Sep 29, 2016)

Hello,

I hope you don't mind me quoting myself from another thread - but I just wanted to let you all know that over at Bookzio.com we're currently looking out for good LGBT titles to promote...



Bookzio.com said:


> Hello,
> 
> yes, we do have an LGBT category (and readers). Until recently, we only managed to promote books in this category occasionally. Lately, we've been actively looking to increase the number of LGBT books we promote - because in a recent survey, some subscribers wrote to ask us to -- and we like to keep our readers happy!
> 
> ...


----------



## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

I'll be checking it out


----------



## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

Gabriella West said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm about to publish my first M/M historical (it's A Knight's Tale: Kenilworth) in my sig. I'm a bit nervous because my lesbian historical has always done well, but I wonder if this book will find an audience. It's set in 13th-century England and it's actually quite juicy, but I went for a more conservative cover. Anyway, it's still on preorder and comes out on Tuesday! I loved writing it... I hope that comes across.


M/M historical set in the Middle Ages? You have at least an audience of one, that's one of my favourite genres


----------



## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

Aw, thanks! It's good to hear that.


----------



## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

Well, my book is out  I read the first third on my Kindle last night, which felt good. It's one of the perks of living on the West Coast...you get your preorders early.

I just wanted to mention that Time of Grace, my lesbian historical set in Ireland in 1916, is finally off KU and will soon be available on Apple, Nook, etc. it hasn't been wide for several years, but it feels like it's time.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I picked the lgbt niche so I could price higher. I launched with two lesbian romances, but the one I'm currently working on is a 3 part serial, action adventure, family saga, with some romance thrown in. I think 4.99-6.99 is fine. I've seen them go as high as 9.99 for a 60k novel, but I don't have the guts to try that. I did see a 9.99 at the top of the charts recently, though.


----------



## ivyquinn (Mar 23, 2017)

I think the 9.99 might also be from smaller presses for the lesbian romance so they have more overhead? but interesting point.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I've seen that.  I assumed they were well-known and well-loved authors.


----------



## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm here for the books!  

Seriously though, so happy I came across this thread.  I've been writing LGBTQ+ for a few years. Connected with some amazing authors and I'm looking forward to meeting more. 

As for the convo about pricing, I price my books the same depending on length, but I have noticed, as a reader, I'll pay more for LGBTQ+ books than I will ebooks in other genres. Sometimes because it's a favourite author, other times because the concept is breaking the mold, which draws me right in. I'm not even talking about the relationship. I've found a lot more fully developed characters, and solid plots, in LGBTQ+ book lately. Maybe it's just me, but I find they go less by the standard formulas? 

Either way, makes me a happy book nerd! lol


----------



## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

Happy is good  Welcome, Bianca. I'll keep an eye out for your books.


----------



## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

Thank you!  Checking out yours too!



Gabriella West said:


> Happy is good  Welcome, Bianca. I'll keep an eye out for your books.


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Congrats on the new book Gabriella!

I've read several LGBT historicals, but none so far from the Middle Ages. Sounds interesting!

And wow, y'all - yeah I've seen some lesbian romance priced higher than most anything. Bianca - I'll pay more if I know the author. Romance in general is so competitive, isn't it?


----------



## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

Gabriella West,

Congratulations on your new release!
Friendly nudge: It's time to update your author note. The book is no longer in preorder. Lovely cover.


----------



## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks! And thanks for the nudge.

(Hi Irene!)


----------



## Sam B (Mar 28, 2017)

I almost forgot to post this. Since I saw them in this thread and was running a promo anyway, I requested a promo with Bookzio--a free promo spot--and they did run my book. On the day that ran, the first day of the .99c promo and before any other ads ran, I sold 12 copies of the book in question.

I don't have a ton of experience with promos, and I don't know how many of them came from this ad, but what I have tells me that 12 books isn't too bad, especially for a free ad. I'll definitely consider them for paid promotion in the future.


----------



## DonovanJeremiah (Oct 14, 2017)

Wow! First time on the boards and I run across this thread. How fortuitous. I've been on boards where it isn't quite as welcoming, if you get me.

LGBT+ writer looking for good home. Dare I believe I've found it here?


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Hey guys, I just got an alert from Instafreebie about an LGBT giveaway. https://www.instafreebie.com/groupgiveaway/view/d18501bc88d78decd4e1b8c245734f20 Is anyone planning to join and / or know any reason not to? I had some great subscribes from the last time I was part of a giveaway, so I'm excited for more when possible.


----------



## mama_bear (Oct 17, 2017)

Do you find there are common mistakes, generalizations, and other things that make you cringe when you read LGBT characters written by hetero authors?

Asking as a female het author with an interest in expanding my character base.

I know when I first started writing m/f sex scenes   it was really weird to use a man's POV (but still m/f so I had that point of reference). It took a lot of thought and research. So I'd obviously like to apply the same conscientiousness to writing POV in orientations other than my own.

That and I suspect... one orientation's "fantasy pairing" (e.g., a straight male's lesbian fantasy) is wildly different than how it is real life (like, what, porn does not reflect reality? OMG). I want to write rich characters with believable motivations... not stereotypes.

Writing is fun because sometimes when you manage to get out of your head you realize how little you actually know.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I asked here because I know nothing about it, actually.    I asked Instafreebie to inform me of the next LGBT giveaway open to author, and I got an email announcement about it.  Anyway I don't know anything about it other than that email.  My last Instafreebie (first, actually!) got me a lot of new readers so I'm excited to do more eventually.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

mama_bear said:


> Do you find there are common mistakes, generalizations, and other things that make you cringe when you read LGBT characters written by hetero authors?
> 
> Asking as a female het author with an interest in expanding my character base.
> 
> ...


I think it's easy to do "broad brush" characterization, where something is basically a stereotype or their sexual orientation or preferences are made into the biggest part of their character. Focusing on creating complex characters with many different sides to them is probably the best way to combat that.

I'd also caution against going too far the other way, sort of the mindset that "well, a butch lesbian is a stereotype, so all the lesbians in my stories are going to be look and act exactly like straight women except they're into other girls." Well, people are varied: butch lesbians exist. That's not bad or shameful. Saying that a butch lesbian is a stereotype and shouldn't be written is just sort of erasure of a less socially acceptable gay person, and not great.

Basically it's easy to go wrong in either direction, too stereotyped or simplified or reduced to one set of characteristics, or too much avoidance of anything that could seem stereotyped (and thus some erasure). I think the best thing to do is simply write characters who have different sides to them, and be willing to learn more about people and differences.

Personally I think more representation is great and I hope we'll all keep learning together.


----------



## NoLongerHere (Apr 26, 2010)

Bye


----------



## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

Gosh, this thread has been quiet.

I'm on my first BookBub (US and International), and it's for a lesbian historical romance (Time of Grace in my signature).

It was a blast to wake up this morning and see the book on the BB site and things are ticking along nicely, but my rank is firmly stuck to what it was yesterday (not an impressive figure). I do hope it shifts in a few hours. It will probably take that long!

Just thought I'd post here, as this thread has always been a nice place to visit.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Congrats on the BB!


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## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks, Hollis! And I got rank. Phew!


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## K&#039;Sennia Visitor (Jan 14, 2014)

I have a lot of thoughts but they're jumbled & confused & contradictory so I don't want to write a lot of them. But I love this thread and I wanted to participate in it. I'm an Ace Lesbian and my secondary fantasy universe has lots of lesbians in it and depending on whether I eventually settle on all lesbian or all-inclusive, has heteros, gay men, bisexual and bigender and transgender and intersex characters. Oh and I recently discovered one of my characters is agender/asexual, too. Which was cool. 

I have finished the first draft of a story set in the all lesbian universe, but I'm stuck on editing mode right now cos I want it to be a series and I want to get everything with my universe settled before I publish it. I've published too soon way too many times and it bit me in the unfun butt place every time. 

No matter what I decide there will always be tons of lesbians, but I want everyone to feel welcome in my universe and all of my characters are cool, for the most part. The ones that aren't know who I'm talking about.   

Sometimes I have reading/viewing moods where I'm like, "men, gah, I don't want them to even exist in this book or TV show/movie. I just wants the lesbians."Then other times I write a story about an evil scientist who funds her warmongering by doing illegal sex change operations on characters and giving women new appendages and taking away said appendages from guys and giving them a present on their chests. Then the guys and girls with the parts all mixed-up all have an orgy and love it. Though one of the futa guys had a cis-male boyfriend who was talked about a lot who would have shown up later. Mainly the theme was that everyone is wonderful and amazing and everyone's bodies are wonderful and amazing and let's all just have fun together. 

  So I swivel from the extreme of "I only want girls ever" to "I love everyone, let's all party like its the 25th century". So all-inclusive prolly makes the most sense for me, and when I'm in my "I only like girls" phase I can just write the girl parts, maybe. 

I created my bigender admiral during one of my more reflective moods. Even though I'm firmly femgal, always. 

  Anywho, my books when they finally get published will be very quiltbag, or just very lesbian. Which still counts for the L. But hopefully I'll end up with the whole quilt, in the end.


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## ReginaGreen (Feb 14, 2013)

I didn't know the term quiltbag...that's interesting.

I think I can relate to you in the sense that my queer identity is one thing, but the fiction I write tends to the more bi or pansexual, with lots of menage. I like the variety. But in my life, I certainly couldn't handle it


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

I did a quick scan/search of the thread and didn't find this question asked before -- sorry if it is a duplicate.

I have a new series starting in March that has a main character who's lesbian, but I can't shake a feeling that some portion of my established readership (MilSciFi/SpaceFleet) might react poorly to this. Not all or even most, but maybe some. 

Has anyone had a similar situation where you had an established series with no LGBT characters and then introduced one in a new series? Did readers react okay?


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## K&#039;Sennia Visitor (Jan 14, 2014)

ReginaGreen said:


> I didn't know the term quiltbag...that's interesting.
> 
> I think I can relate to you in the sense that my queer identity is one thing, but the fiction I write tends to the more bi or pansexual, with lots of menage. I like the variety. But in my life, I certainly couldn't handle it


 Quiltbag is my favorite acronym. I don't think its the most popular one though.

In real life I'm super boring and a hermit and I do like the same 3 things every day without variation. But when it comes to my virtual life, writing, education, and entertainment I like lots and lots of variety. As long as that lots and lots of variety also includes lots and lots of girls. I can't go too long without them in my books and TV/Movie adventures. But then gay men can be super erotic sometimes like Captain Jack on Torchwood. I love all his MM kissing scenes. And sometimes I can even get really into hetero romance if there's insane chemistry between the two. I can't just care cos one is a guy and one is girl and they say they're in love. Their chemistry has to be off the charts for me to care. But pretty much any queer pairing I'm down for. Although again I'm addicted to girls so I can't go too long without them.

That's where the idea of the AGU came from, I was thinking I could easily live in a universe without men but I wouldn't want to live in a universe without women. But then every time I start thinking, "THIS IS SOOO COOL. ALL MY CHARACTERS ARE FEMGALSS." Then I watch a youtube video with 3 cute genderqueer peeps and I'm like, "awe, but if I go AGU then they might not feel comfortable there. Or I'll remember a Captain Jack scene or think of some of my male friends or my trans friends, and I'll think, "would my universe really be complete without them?

And then all my non cis-femgal characters remind me that they're super neatokins, too, and do that lip wibble and sad puppy-eye thing and I go all melty and feel guilty. So then I unlock the closet I shoved them all in and just enjoy everyone at the great big party I throw for everyone and make sure to dance with plenty of really cute girls so that I don't go into withdrawals. Then everyone is happy and we all win!


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## Sam B (Mar 28, 2017)

J.A. Sutherland said:


> I did a quick scan/search of the thread and didn't find this question asked before -- sorry if it is a duplicate.
> 
> I have a new series starting in March that has a main character who's lesbian, but I can't shake a feeling that some portion of my established readership (MilSciFi/SpaceFleet) might react poorly to this. Not all or even most, but maybe some.
> 
> Has anyone had a similar situation where you had an established series with no LGBT characters and then introduced one in a new series? Did readers react okay?


I've never seen it done in your genre. I've seen it done in romance, fantasy, and historical with mixed success. (romance was the one that got the most flack for it.) It really depends on the audience you've cultivated with the rest of the series. I suspect you might be okay, given your genre's traditional audience and the fact that the character is a lesbian and not a gay man. My husband reads your genre and would be fine with either, actually.

Good luck!


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## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

Sam B said:


> I've never seen it done in your genre. I've seen it done in romance, fantasy, and historical with mixed success. (romance was the one that got the most flack for it.) It really depends on the audience you've cultivated with the rest of the series. I suspect you might be okay, given your genre's traditional audience and the fact that the character is a lesbian and not a gay man. My husband reads your genre and would be fine with either, actually.
> 
> Good luck!


I'm actually switching genre with the new series, too, so that might help.  The new character will be in a more traditional steampunk setting, so I imagine my more traditional milscifi readers won't necessarily follow there to begin with.


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## Sam B (Mar 28, 2017)

J.A. Sutherland said:


> I'm actually switching genre with the new series, too, so that might help.  The new character will be in a more traditional steampunk setting, so I imagine my more traditional milscifi readers won't necessarily follow there to begin with.


Okay well I can tell you now that you're going to sell at least one book.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm curious how others are doing wide. I read and write most genres. On Amazon, most L G B T subcategories, including Mystery and other genres, are full of MM Romance. Search results for L G BT books tend to be more relevant to my interests on other retailers. 

It took many uploads and many months to gain wide traction with my more mainstream pen. I'm not sure it would be worth the time to go wide with my out pen. None of my books cater to the MM Romance audience.


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## Dragon (May 9, 2016)

Good morning everyone,
I can't believe I just found this thread.
Anyway, I am penning a sci-fi novel whose main characters are not only lesbians but a newly-minted couple.The premise of the book is that they spear-head a rescue mission to another world to retrieve a science expedition that is late to return.
It's interesting to watch people's reactions when I tell them I'm writing lesbian sci-fi. Half of them immediately think lesbian porn in space, and the other half respond with, "Huh?"
I inevitably launch into some kind of explanation reassuring them that my characters are like anyone else, they just have a thing for each other.
I've been advised that I need to write more romantic moments between them, even if I don't ever write anything overtly intimate between them. 

So here are my questions --

1) Do you think that LGBTQ characters should be written "like the rest of us"
or
2) Should we write them in all their "other" glory and hope the world accepts them?


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## Brian Olsen (Jan 13, 2013)

Secret Pen Pal said:


> I'm curious how others are doing wide. I read and write most genres. On Amazon, most L G B T subcategories, including Mystery and other genres, are full of MM Romance. Search results for L G BT books tend to be more relevant to my interests on other retailers.
> 
> It took many uploads and many months to gain wide traction with my more mainstream pen. I'm not sure it would be worth the time to go wide with my out pen. None of my books cater to the MM Romance audience.


I'm prawny, so take this with a grain of salt. I've got two series out, one is wide, one is in KU. I do find it hard to crack the LGBT SciFi subcategory unless I'm doing a good promotion, but my KU series still makes enough compared to the wide one that I have so far decided to keep it in. I've got another series coming this year, I'm going to release it into KU first and see how it does.


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## Brian Olsen (Jan 13, 2013)

Dragon said:


> So here are my questions --
> 
> 1) Do you think that LGBTQ characters should be written "like the rest of us"
> or
> 2) Should we write them in all their "other" glory and hope the world accepts them?


I say write them in all their lesbian glory! Writing non-erotica with lesbian leads means you're going to have a hard-time marketing no matter what. If you're going to do it, then don't write them in a way that's just straight people disguised, or you might alienate your core audience. I think you'd be better off just writing hetero leads if you were to go that route.


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## RRodriguez (Jan 8, 2017)

Mark Gardner said:


> My wife seems to have a real issue with me writing fiction that has LGBT characters as the protagonists. When I wrote Snow White as a lesbian in _Brass Automaton_ she rolled her eyes. She pointedly ignored my LGBT contribution to _Days Until Home_, and was rather huffy when even though I have hints through out _Score of Silence_, in the last chapter, when the protagonist talks about her deceased girlfriend, she gave me "the look."
> 
> She absolutely lost her [crap] when I wrote my submission to _Queen of Swords_, demanding to know why I'm "suddenly" writing LGBT characters. I reminded her that _Sixteen Sunsets_ has a pansexual protagonist, and I wrote that in 2014! I also reminded her that although brief, In my debut self-published novella, _Body Rentals_ (2012) I took a look at under identity. She says that my time on twitter is affecting my brain, but I think that if anything is "affecting my brain," it's the eight years it took me to get my undergraduate degree in Human Behavior that has allowed me to explore human relationships, and not limit what I write to who _I_ am.
> 
> I avoid the topic with her, but wanted to know what the group thinks. Have any other authors encountered this? What sort of response do you do? I'm not fishing for sympathy, or dumping on her, just wondering if my experience is common.


I do think it's common, and personally (NOT to bad-talk your wife), I find it sad. Personally, if my significant other had such a problem with LGBT+ people, I'd want to know why because it would make me extremely uncomfortable and reevaluate some things. Maybe that sounds extreme, but if I'm married to someone I think it's important to be 100% open and clear when it comes to such types of topics. My debut novel features two gay men, and my husband has been wholly accepting and gave it a beta read the first go around. He knows writing about diverse characters is important to me and he helps me when as I work on creating more for later novels.


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## Brian Olsen (Jan 13, 2013)

Mark Gardner said:


> In my debut self-published novella, _Body Rentals_ (2012) I took a look at under identity.


Out of curiosity, what's "under identity?" I've never heard the term and Google is failing me.



> I avoid the topic with her, but wanted to know what the group thinks. Have any other authors encountered this? What sort of response do you do? I'm not fishing for sympathy, or dumping on her, just wondering if my experience is common.


I'm gay, so I'm not going to elicit much surprise by writing queer characters. And it's not considered odd when queer authors write straight either, since that's considered the "default." I can't speak to whether your wife's response is common or not, but good on you for writing diverse characters anyway!


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Just a heads-up for anyone aiming to publish in the Lesbian category on Google Play: They haven't updated their Bestseller list since 2016. No matter how many copies of a particular title you sell, it will never make it to that list. I've had a couple of email exchanges with 2 different people there, wondering why my new releases, which in some cases had sold more than some of my other titles on the list, were not being featured. One person told me the lists were handpicked. Then, when I brought this up with another customer service agent, I was informed that "handpicked" meant picked by an automated algorithm... Yeah.

I don't know how the Gay subcategory is doing, but the Lesbian one is stale. If you have a look, you'll see that there are no books from 2017 onwards.

As for the wide reception, none of the other retailers have even the remotest interest in making LGBT fiction discoverable. Everything is lumped into LGBT, and in some cases (the iBooks store) there is no category at all. I'm still amazed I sell anything on Apple, because, honestly, I don't know how anyone finds my stuff on there.

Kobo is just as bad. Recently, they separated out the LGBT categories on their website, but whaddya know, you can't add your books to them from the dashboard, and when I contacted them to ask if they could do it manually, I was told they couldn't. The lady informed me that they planned on adding the extra categories to the dashboard, but had no date for when this would be implemented.

I'm not even going to mention B&N. The less said about them, the better.

These stores are an absolute joke. An unfunny one at that.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

Lady Vine said:


> Just a heads-up for anyone aiming to publish in the Lesbian category on Google Play: They haven't updated their Bestseller list since 2016. No matter how many copies of a particular title you sell, it will never make it to that list. I've had a couple of email exchanges with 2 different people there, wondering why my new releases, which in some cases had sold more than some of my other titles on the list, were not being featured. One person told me the lists were handpicked. Then, when I brought this up with another customer service agent, I was informed that "handpicked" meant picked by an automated algorithm... Yeah.
> 
> I don't know how the Gay subcategory is doing, but the Lesbian one is stale. If you have a look, you'll see that there are no books from 2017 onwards.
> 
> ...


Maybe if more of us authors writing queer fiction reached out to these stores, things would get better. I had a major issue with D2D/Playster a while back, and was ignored until a whole lot of people complained on my behalf. Retailers might not even realize there's a need for these categories. (You'd hope that in 2018, it'd be an automatic thing, but yeah.)


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

I can't even find Google Play's LGBT category.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

I sent a quick note to Kobo this morning:



> Hello,
> 
> I recently noticed that under the LGBT category, there are now Gay and Lesbian categories. I looked at my f/f romance, Any Other Love (https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/any-other-love), and saw that it's now filed in the LGBT > Gay category for some reason. It should be in the Lesbian category. I went into KWL to change the category but there doesn't seem to be a way to fix this. Can you please change the categories for me? I'd really appreciate it!


This afternoon, I received this reply:



> Hi Elizabeth,
> 
> Thank you for contacting Kobo Writing Life. I'm sorry to hear you've encountered an issue with your book. We are aware of issues with the way in which our categories are mapped. The categories on our website were updated but we haven't yet updated KWL to match. I will manually update this for you and it should be updated on site within 24 hours. Apologies for this inconvenience.
> 
> We're planning to revamp our category options in the coming months so that KWL is aligned with our store. Let me know if you have any questions.


I've always had good experiences with KWL, and this is no exception. I'm very pleased.

Lady Vine, I'd definitely reach out to them again and ask if they could please put your books in the appropriate categories. You may find that you have to be specific about which books belong where. Hopefully the KWL dashboard will be updated soon and we can do it ourselves.


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## EllieDee (May 28, 2017)

> This makes no sense to me. Even if we take diversity out of the equation, and focus solely on marketing, the non-erotica LGBT market is emerging, and I suspect that any e-tailer that embraces LGBT will simply make a killing when the LGBT community discovers it.


Agreed. And I think there may be a possible synergy between authors and e-tailers in these categories. If enough authors narrow down their focus on the best retailer for their LGBT books, ones that give them visibility, then I think the LGBT readers will come and stick around. A friend of mine writes romance in those genres and although she isn't going to be buying a luxury car any time soon, her lesbian readers are very, very loyal and always ready for the next book.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Mark, I agree, it makes no sense. It wouldn't take much to add these categories. It's beginning to look very purposeful, you know. If the Amazon rankings are anything to go by, there are a lot of readers in the genre. For example, the book at no.1 in the Lesbian Romance chart is at 764 in the entire store. The book at no.1 in Gay Romance sits at 240. It would be silly to ignore those readers.

Elizabeth, I definitely think more people need to complain. I took your advice and contacted Kobo again, wording my email similar to yours, and being specific with all of the titles in the wrong categories. Fingers crossed, eh? As for the LGBT category on Play, there isn't one. Google, surprisingly enough, has separated Gay and Lesbian out. If you go to Fiction & Literature, you will be able to find both of them.

EllieDee, the LGBT wide readers are definitely a loyal bunch. I was lucky enough to jump into Google Play early - back in 2013 - and gained visibility quickly. I have good visibility in the store now, and Google has been, in the past, my strongest retailer. Only recently, within the past 7 months, has Amazon overtaken it as my best sales channel.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

Thanks, Brian Olson, Lady Vine, and Elizabeth Barone. 

I've been doing searches on the other stories off and on. 
Genre and subcat are important considerations for going wide. The difficulties with search and discovery on other retailers is another factor that affects how books will do. I've been tinkering with it for a long time and still have no idea how readers find my books, but I do have a few mainstream titles selling on the other stores. It took months and loads of time to gain sales. That's on books that sold steadily on Amazon. The odds of pulling off steady sales on marginalized books with a far smaller potential audience don't look good. 

Good idea to communicate with the storefronts to improve the categorization so readers can find our books. 

Mark Gardner, Writing diversity is a challenging zone. Some of my for-the-somewhat-mainstream books include bisexual characters, even as protagonists, and so far, I haven't had any flak for that. Based on subscribers, reviewer names, and fan mail, my readers for that pen are primarily women over 40. Men might make up 10-20 percent of my audience, but I know of a couple of readers who use their husband's email accounts. One reader mentioned a male and female version of his, her or ze's name. Speculative Fiction has a long history of inclusiveness. TBH, I rarely mention my work IRL. Most people don't understand creativity. 

I grapple with issues about my characters who are POC, but I'd be more uncomfortable writing all-white worlds than I am with risking making mistakes. 

There are depictions of LGBT characters in books and media that are three-dimensional and enjoyable. There are others, based on the book descriptions, subject matter, and Look Insides in many KU-heavy categories, that use faked depictions of LGBT and other diverse characters as a fetish. That's why I chose to focus on writing for an ostensibly mainstream audience instead of for popular subcats full of books using fantasies about unreal versions of LGBT people for profit. The readers of that material aren't my audience. 

It seems it might be possible to find readers who enjoy fully-dimensional LGBT and other marginalized characters somewhere other than Amazon. The other stores are limited in terms of making indie books visible. They're refreshing in that it's possible to browse without wading through gobs of miscategorized romance in damned near every genre. 

Lady Vine, That's good news about sales potential on Google. I might try some backlist there and see how it goes.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## LeLune (Oct 10, 2016)

Hi, just noticed this thread.
My series Forever, and Until Eternity is heavily lesbian. However, sexual orientation is not the main theme throughout the 8 books, I try to add in a full and rounded lifestyle for all my lovely characters in their dangerous environment, they have enough to get on with as it is... Of course there are love scenes, but I have been told they are tastefully written and as one male said, "not in your face."
Well done for adding this thread.

Angela


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## J.J. Thompson (Aug 10, 2013)

Hey everybody,

It's funny, but the two main characters in my latest release, The Werewolves of Nottinghill, are a gay couple and it never occurred to me that anyone would be bothered by that. One is black and the other is of Korean descent. Maybe it's just my Canadian attitude, but I didn't want to make the story revolve around their relationship. Instead, it's simply a given in the book. I mention it and move on, because it isn't central to the book itself. (I write epic fantasy.)
In fact, their sexuality only comes up a few times in the entire book, and even then it is accepted by the fellow members of their society and treated as normal. (Which it is, of course.)
I have no idea if this will give any of my readers pause. These two men appeared in an earlier series of mine, where I touched on their connection and then returned to the central story. Maybe it helps that they are so comfortable with each other that it's not a big deal, even to them. I guess that I'll just have to wait and see.
I have always inserted LGBTQ characters into my books as regular characters and let my readers deal with it as they saw fit. I see no reason to change that attitude going forward.
Anyway, just wanted to jump into the conversation with my short comment. Take care, everyone.

J.J.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

Lady Vine said:


> ...
> 
> Elizabeth, I definitely think more people need to complain. I took your advice and contacted Kobo again, wording my email similar to yours, and being specific with all of the titles in the wrong categories. Fingers crossed, eh? As for the LGBT category on Play, there isn't one. Google, surprisingly enough, has separated Gay and Lesbian out. If you go to Fiction & Literature, you will be able to find both of them.
> 
> ...


Good luck! Let me know how you make out.

Ah, now I've found it. Not the easiest to find from their home page, though, huh?


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Fran Feliz said:


> I'm all caught up. What a great and much-needed thread. It seems to go in spurts, but it's June now, so someone had to comment this particular month.
> 
> I've been reading a lot of merfolk books that were free on Amazon, including some M/M romances, as well as contemporary YA books from Harmony Ink (I wish they were still accepting submissions, a dream of mine). So much out there, but it won't ever be enough for years. It's why these threads are so important for more visibility, and I'm thankful for their existence. I'm still working on my first publication, since these things take time. Doing lots of research here helps, which led me to decide on D2D for now, but I always feel like I need to do more research. Maybe it's just cold feet for being an unpublished author with plans to publish later. And of course, the novel factor when I prefer writing shorter works. Oh, well. I'll manage and get there eventually.
> 
> Anyway, I hope all of you are doing well. Happy Pride Month!


I always forget about pride month. I guess because I make a point to be exceptionally gay all year.  

And yes, "research" is code for "avoiding the inevitable". I prefer shorter works, too, but lately I've been on the novel train. It's fun, but my first love is still short stories.


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## DCRWrites (Jan 20, 2014)

I was very humbled when a book reviewer listed my Doc Vandal series among books to read for Pride Month because of a "really sweet lesbian relationship." I did have to remind her that the relationship doesn't get started until book 2, though because I don't want people disappointed in the first book when it's not there.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Fran Feliz said:


> Haha, I can relate to being exceptionally gay all year.
> 
> And yeah, novels just sell so much more, so I feel like there's that pressure. I do have a transgender teen romance novel that's a 2015 NaNo winner, but it still needs a lot of work done after all that pantsing for the challenge. I really like novelettes and novellas, though. Sometimes, a story doesn't read right if stretched, but if a writer is good enough, it can work. It takes skills, that's for sure.


Yeah I don't pants. Well, I pants after I get the basic outline done. I think outline helps it stay longer. I know that roughly my scenes are 2k words. So I need about 25 to make a good length book.

I think I like "novellas" because I was raised on classics which tend to be shorter than today's novels (not SFF classics, but coming of age stories and what not). 1984 is like a pamphlet to people today, I guess. Haha.


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## DCRWrites (Jan 20, 2014)

Fran Feliz said:


> I can image because of the romance factor of having to have a HEA in the first book, and some people might confuse it with romance if it's not. Still, that's great!


In this case it's that her love interest doesn't appear until book 2. The romance grew out of my trying to figure out why someone who I had thought was going to be a walk-on character insisted on sticking around.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I missed writing shorter stories, too. I'm doing one a month for Patreon now.  It's an interesting experiment. 


Sometimes I feel a bit nihilistic about writing lately. We take this thing we love, this art, and now it earns money...and the pressure to produce more, and faster, can  feel stifling.


I'm not sure if a short story a month is sustainable for me, but a novel a month wasn't.  I've always been a write fast, publish fast sort of indie.  But lately fast isn't working quite as well for me.


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## AlysonBelle (Jun 6, 2018)

Hi everyone,

Thanks for starting this thread! Lots of interesting comments here. I write transgender romance and erotic romance for transgender audiences, usually with magic or scifi mechanics driving a gender change and then an exploration of feelings and themes common to transgender people mid-transition. Rather than taking a heavy, serious stance, my work tends to keep things light, silly, sexy, and fantasy-oriented. I think of what I write as bodice-rippers for TG audiences looking for that type of thing. My books also tend to feature other LGBT characters on the periphery of the main character as well, and deal a lot with family, self-acceptance, and finding love.

I've been pleasantly surprised at the reception my books have gotten when I've dipped into genres like Scifi and LitRPG, where honestly I expected either crickets or a strong negative backlash from readers, and instead find that people have enjoyed the work when they review it even if they're not reading it for the gender swap elements.

It's great seeing LGBT characters in general become more mainstream in all different types of genres and settings (and not just romance, although I love LGBT romances too, obviously), although we still have a long way to go. There are times when I feel really conflicted about writing erotic romance and focusing heavily on sex scenes in some of my work, because trans people are constantly fighting an uphill battle to explain that our identities aren't a sexual fetish, which is still a very common attitude... but then, on the other hand, I get annoyed at myself for thinking that because I also think trans people deserve to be able to explore whatever fantasies they want to in fiction, just like anyone else gets to. Sex is a universal human thing, and trans experiences with it are often very complicated and grapple with the experience of feeling like your body is all wrong for you.

Sometimes it's nice to have a break from the hard realities of that (and the romantic rejections that many trans people struggle with at times) and imagine that someone just waved a magic wand, flipped your gender for you, and you now have the freedom to go chase romance like any other person. I think it's important to give people that outlet when their experiences can so often be heavy and alienating, and I know stories like mine helped me process that fear of loneliness and rejection when I was early in my transition.


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## Dragon (May 9, 2016)

Good to know, trying to find good lesfic in space can be difficult! thanks for the recommendations!
Dragon



Mark Gardner said:


> I can think of several MilSciFi/SpaceFleet series that feature lesbian and/or pansexual protagonists. The Dragonfire Station series by Zen Dipietro comes to mind. My favorite is a solo novel: Dalí, by E.M. Hamill. It's gender fluid instead of lesbian, but it's a solid space fleet story. Unknown Horizons, by CJ Birch is another fun lezfic space opera stand alone. I know it's not MilSciFi/SpaceFleet, but I can't say enough good things about the Nemesis series by April Daniels (trans superhero.)


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## DCRWrites (Jan 20, 2014)

My latest, The Sunkiller Affair (link in sig), features a lesbian co-lead fighting her first space battle. It is retro-pulp though there are references to space opera aspects in the series.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Does anyone know where it's best to advertise LGBT content when it's permafree?  I know there were earlier mentions, but things change fast sometimes, I'd be interested in any current experiences or recs.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

Any thoughts for marketing LGBT books that aren't MM Romance? On Amazon, all the LGBT subcats are full of Romance. LGBTI and gay seem useless as keywords because they are dominated by Romance and Erotica.

One of my early books got 5-star reviews from readers with male names and 1-star reviews from readers with female names. It was Horror, not Romance. Apparently, putting two men on a cover attracted readers who became upset that the book wasn't MM romance, even though the description and categories were accurate.

I rarely buy LGBTI fiction, except at offline stores. The miscategorized MM Romance books discourage me from browsing. I'm never going to read mpreg, regardless of category.

I sometimes do DuckDuckGo searches for queer books in genres I like or blogs by gay authors. I enjoy books by authors of all persuasions, and I have nothing against Romance and Erotica. The difficulty is finding books in the genres I read--and finding non-fetishistic representations of LGBTI characters.

I'm curious, how do any of you find ebooks by LGBTI authors, other than Romance or Erotica?
Are there any useful search strings? Any progress on other storefronts? Any newsletters?

I just discovered Cole McCade and grabbed the first episode of Criminal Intentions. Hull Metal Girls by Emily Strutskie looks intriguing, too.

Https://lgbtqreads.com/tag/cole-mccade/
Who are you reading?


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

This is certainly an issue, as Amazon doesn't categories things very well sometimes, even if nobody tries to jump categories.

I'd suggest looking elsewhere to find books you like, or publicize your own. It's unfortunate, but that's how things are right now.

I think https://www.queeromanceink.com/ has promise for helping readers find the books they want, and authors connect with readers. It's still pretty new.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

Thanks for the responses.

Yes, miscategorization is a problem all over Amazon. I usually find books via friends, newsletters, search engines, and blogs. 

The main reason I still browse Amazon is for research, and there again the high ratio of irrelevant results is aggravating. The one useful feature is also boughts. That usually leads to at least a couple of appealing books in a given genre. I'm exploring the other stores, and it's still a mystery how readers find my books. Several a day do, so that's encouraging. 

The SF site has relevant links in the sidebar. I'm going go try their NL. 

I'm experimenting with AMS and BookBub PPC for mainstream fiction. If results improve, I might test launching an out book. 

If anyone has ideas of how launch LGBTI books that aren't romance, I could use inspiration.


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## FTN (Dec 13, 2016)

It seems when searching Amazon, you can exclude search terms by typing a minus before something you don't want to read about. Such as -mpreg. That should narrow it down for you. Hope that helps.

Sorry no help with marketing. I'm afraid most of my support will be of the moral kind.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

Thanks for the search suggestion!


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## periewolford (Nov 12, 2013)

Hi guys. I haven't released a book in 2 years, now I'm working on a new one. Do you think a blog tour would help promoting it? The last time I did a blog tour for a mm book, I didn't get a lot of extra sales out of it. Now I'm wondering if I should consider it at all or rather concentrate on other types of advertisement. I'd be thankful for your opinions!


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## VisitasKeat (Oct 15, 2018)

Hi everyone! 

I mostly write NA lesbian romance. 

Special thanks to the OP for starting this support thread!


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

I don't mean to bump this thread, but here I go. As a gay black author myself. 

My second novel is coming out soon, and it's more LGBT "activism" related. My debut novel all the characters were Gay/Bisexual men, but it was a simple heist/action story, to where them being gay/bisexual was more of them rebelling and being outcasts.  

My second novel "Profiles of Hope", deals with more LGBT issues, such as dealing with sexuality in high school, dealing with bullies, having forbidden crushes, homophobia, being disowned from your family, femininity, masculinity, coming out etc. 

So I was looking into more ways of promotion. 

Any other LGBT/LGBTQ writers and authors out there, we can help each other.


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## kswalker (Apr 26, 2013)

So far, the best promotions that I've done have been group promos with other authors. Many of these are organized on sites like Story Origin and Bookfunnel. They're not common, but maybe once a month I'm seeing someone running a promo called something like "Fantasy with LGBT Characters" (this is a Bookfunnel newsletter builder running in September). I jump on these whenever I see them and get a few sales or newsletter subscribers each time (depending on the type of promo) and I know that I'm targeting readers who are looking for these types of stories.

Because some of the bigger group promos explicitly say they don't accept any LGBT content because "that's not what [their] readers are looking for." (Nice way to disguise your bigotry, but at least I know to avoid them in the future.)

The groups I'm in are more targeted to Fantasy/Sci-fi genres, but if you look around, maybe you can find similar groups in your genre. Or if you can't find what you're looking for, try creating it yourself and see who else you can get to join. I strongly believe that supporting each other is important, doubly so when we're working in a niche that gets so much hate.

Just yesterday, a reader emailed me to let me know that my books were "very niche... tolerance is not trending today." Yeah, that's why I wrote the books! Every time someone tells me my books are too gay, I add another gay character.


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## Doktor von Zwitter (Jul 7, 2019)

Oh good, there is a thread for us here. I was beginning to wonder.

In any case, my book Witch Hunt, which has been out for about a month is an urban fantasy about an anarchist witch who is a transgender lesbian. It's um, rather political and has her pitted against the Order of the Black Sun, a sect of evil Nazi wizards. Some of whom she punches. I'm currently working on the sequel which deals with the themes of imperialism, protracted war, and abuse.


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