# I'm Going To Pursue A Kirkus Review.



## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

For about a year now, I have been giving thought to the idea of submitting my novel "Gifts of the Peramangk" to industry journal Kirkus for review. I have spoken to many colleagues, have read a number of different articles and watched several discussions that have evolved from those articles.

There have been almost equal bodies of opinion both for and against pursuing a Kirkus review and I've read some compelling points made on both sides.

After a lot of consideration, I've decided to kick off a crowd funding project via Pozible.

Australian Novel for Kirkus Review by Dean Mayes

I'm seeking support so I can submit my novel Gifts of the Peramangk to books journal Kirkus for review. As many of you know, Kirkus is a trade publication that is read widely within the industry and reviews from Kirkus can, potentially, carry a lot of weight.

With my publishers support, I am hoping to submit my novel via Kirkus Indie. The problem here, however, is that the submission fee is nearly $600 for an expedited review.

So, my project has started and I have put together a fairly decent set of rewards there for those who pledge to the project. It has a little over 40 days to run and I am hopeful of achieving my goal.

So I invite you to check out the campaign and see what you think.

Thanks in advance.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I'll be interested to see whether a Kirkus review brings you the results you're looking for.  I've been rather on the fence about it, since I'm not sure paid reviews will really be seen as honest opinions by the people who read Kirkus.  You mentioned you've read a lot of discussions on the topic.  Can you give me any links or examples of what made you decide to pursue it?  What has convinced you that a paid review will be taken seriously by industry professionals reading Kirkus?  (Please understand, I don't mean that last sentence to be confrontational or judgmental.  It's hard to get inflection over the internet.    I'm genuinely curious, as something must have convinced you it's a wise investment that can possibly benefit your career.  I'd like to know what, because it might convince me, too.)


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## horst5 (Aug 9, 2013)

Agree with the above. Please let us know what made you decide to pursue this direction.
Thanks in advance.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

deanfromaustralia said:


> With my publishers support, I am hoping to submit my novel via Kirkus Indie.


Wait. If you have a publisher, why wouldn't your PUBLISHER just send a copy of the book to Kirkus for review? Kirkus doesn't charge publishers. They only charge self publishers.

And for that matter, why are YOU handling getting reviews at all? This is the job of your publisher. This is where publishers are suppose to earn their keep. The job of a publisher is to do all of this stuff.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Wait. If you have a publisher, why wouldn't your PUBLISHER just send a copy of the book to Kirkus for review? Kirkus doesn't charge publishers. They only charge self publishers.
> 
> And for that matter, why are YOU handling getting reviews at all? This is the job of your publisher. This is where publishers are supposed to earn their keep. The job of a publisher is to do all of this stuff.


Quoted for truth.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Wait. If you have a publisher, why wouldn't your PUBLISHER just send a copy of the book to Kirkus for review? Kirkus doesn't charge publishers. They only charge self publishers.
> 
> And for that matter, why are YOU handling getting reviews at all? This is the job of your publisher. This is where publishers are suppose to earn their keep. *The job of a publisher is to do all of this stuff. *


Times are changing. I just received an ARC for a book that is to be published by HarperCollins in April. The author sent the ARC with a request for me to review her work and possibly blurb it. Why did she personally send it? I have never met this author and only briefly had contact with her via Facebook once. My opinion is that the authors who want to take their books to new levels of success aren't standing back and letting their publishers handle (or mishandle) everything. In addition to what the publisher marketing team does for them (us), trad-pubbed authors are touching base with other authors, book bloggers, readers, and even finding media outlets to possibly be featured in. Just like an indie author!

Though in the case of a Kirkus review, I can see letting the publisher take that task so they can take on the cost as well. However, you say you want to submit the book 'Kirkus Indie' but can that even be done if you aren't indie?


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

As I understand it, Kirkus are charging huge amounts of money for a virtually worthless review (since it's the indie version and doesn't be listed alongside their standard reviews). It seems closer to a scam than a legitimate service--Kirkus are using their brand to make money of indies.

And you want to crowdfund to put money into this pseudo-scam?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Let me see if I read this right.
You have a publisher so he could go through Kirkus because it is a trade published book but your publisher wants you to go through Indie and pay out the nose for a review.  
Second you want others to fund this $600 to get one review.  For that same $600 you want the crowd to fund, 157 people could buy your book and you could get more honest reviews and you would make either $209 or $419.81 depending on your royalties.  This is based on the $3.82 price tag at amazon today.  If I do the list price you will need 121 people to buy your book which will net you a grand total of $422.65.
Oh I also noticed that all your reviews on that book look very good.
Please think long and hard before spending that money or just asking people for money because if 200 people buy your book you will have made that $600.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Let's see if I'm understanding this. You want to buy a review from Kirkus, but neither you, nor your publisher, wants to cough up the money to pay for it - you prefer to coax others to fund the cost for you, presumably because you and your publisher either don't have the money, or prefer not to spend your own on this, er, venture. Additionally, if your publisher is a real publisher, he'd be able to submit at no cost, but isn't doing that.

Did I miss some essential nuance?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I'm impressed. Looks like $390 pledged so far. Anyone know what percentage of those pledges are actually paid?

_Terrence, you know better. Edited.--Betsy_


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

KayBratt said:


> Times are changing. I just received an ARC for a book that is to be published by HarperCollins in April. The author sent the ARC with a request for me to review her work and possibly blurb it. Why did she personally send it? I have never met this author and only briefly had contact with her via Facebook once. My opinion is that the authors who want to take their books to new levels of success aren't standing back and letting their publishers handle (or mishandle) everything. In addition to what the publisher marketing team does for them (us), trad-pubbed authors are touching base with other authors, book bloggers, readers, and even finding media outlets to possibly be featured in. Just like an indie author!


But we aren't talking about an author being proactive and working on something IN ADDITION to the publisher's efforts. That has nothing to do with times changing. Some authors have always done that on their own. Saying "I love Kay! I wonder if she would review my book?" is very different from forking over $600 for a review in a publication that reviews trade books for free.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

If you are paying for marketing above/beyond what your publisher is doing, that money could be better spent elsewhere. I can't see one paid Kirkus review being some mega-draw for sales. Especially a paid review.
If your publisher will not submit to Kirkus for you, use those funds elsewhere for bigger impact.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

To me the deal breaker with Kirkus is that they stick the paid reviews off in a SP ghetto.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But we aren't talking about an author being proactive and working on something IN ADDITION to the publisher's efforts. That has nothing to do with times changing. Some authors have always done that on their own. Saying "I love Kay! I wonder if she would review my book?" is very different from forking over $600 for a review in a publication that reviews trade books for free.


You didn't say IN ADDITION in your first post. You said:



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The job of a publisher is to *do all *  of this stuff.


And I didn't say he should fork over $600. I said this:



KayBratt said:


> Though in the case of a Kirkus review, I can see letting the publisher take that task so they can take on the cost as well.


Basically, what I said in my post (since it looks like I need to clarify it if Julie didn't understand it) is a reminder to everyone reading this board that even trad-published authors take their career into their own hands and do _much  _ of the marketing, and I told the OP he should let his publisher take on that cost.

As for whether Kirkus is worth it or not, I'd say if you are submitting as an Indie the answer is no. If your publisher is submitting for you, possibly yes. But it's a gamble either way.


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> I'll be interested to see whether a Kirkus review brings you the results you're looking for. I've been rather on the fence about it, since I'm not sure paid reviews will really be seen as honest opinions by the people who read Kirkus. You mentioned you've read a lot of discussions on the topic. Can you give me any links or examples of what made you decide to pursue it? What has convinced you that a paid review will be taken seriously by industry professionals reading Kirkus? (Please understand, I don't mean that last sentence to be confrontational or judgmental. It's hard to get inflection over the internet.  I'm genuinely curious, as something must have convinced you it's a wise investment that can possibly benefit your career. I'd like to know what, because it might convince me, too.)


Look - it's a big ask to have me post the myriad links to the articles and threads and discussions that are going on all over the web. A quick Google search using the phrase 'Are Kirkus reviews worth it' will quickly throw up those same discussions, so I would encourage you to do that.

I have based my decision on pursuing a review on several discussions I have had between authors I know, and industry professionals I've worked with as well as reading both positive and negative accounts from other authors who have dealt with Kirkus. I have read many reviews from Kirkus and I have decided that it is something that I want to pursue. I have no expectations as to the outcome of the review, if I am able to raise the fee and submit. I am well aware that they are know to be harsh review reviewers. But I am confident in my novel. I put an extreme amount of work into it, worked closely with an editor and a reading team before publication and I believe it has as much chance as any novel.

The idea to seek crowd funding for it was put to me as an option to meet the costs of the fee so I decided to go with that.



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Wait. If you have a publisher, why wouldn't your PUBLISHER just send a copy of the book to Kirkus for review? Kirkus doesn't charge publishers. They only charge self publishers.
> 
> And for that matter, why are YOU handling getting reviews at all? This is the job of your publisher. This is where publishers are suppose to earn their keep. The job of a publisher is to do all of this stuff.


Yes I have a publisher - a small publisher - whose budget and resources are limited - I still have to do the bulk of the leg work in terms of marketing, promotion and seeking reviews. This isn't something that is unique nowadays. Even authors from bigger publishing houses have to do a lot of their own marketing, promotion and review seeking. I work closely with my publisher and am actively engaged in the business side of my novel/s.

Although publishers can indeed submit titles to Kirkus free for review, there are no guarantees that the title will be reviewed. By submitting the novel through Kirkus Indie - which allows for both self published and small press titles - and paying the fee, there is that guarantee there that the book will be reviewed.

Is it right to pay for a review? I don't see any problem with paying for a service like this where I'm not influencing the review process.



David J Normoyle said:


> As I understand it, Kirkus are charging huge amounts of money for a virtually worthless review (since it's the indie version and doesn't be listed alongside their standard reviews). It seems closer to a scam than a legitimate service--Kirkus are using their brand to make money of indies.
> 
> And you want to crowdfund to put money into this pseudo-scam?


On what basis of understanding do you assert that Kirkus provides a virtually worthless review and that they are running a psuedo-scam and is that even a thing? It is either a scam or it isn't.

The last time I checked, crowd funding wasn't listed as a crime against humanity. It's not like I'm expecting something for nothing - hence the incentives listed at the crowd funding page.


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I'm impressed. Looks like $390 pledged so far. Anyone know what percentage of those pledges are actually paid?
> 
> _Terrence, you know better. Edited.--Betsy_


None of those pledges will be paid unless the target amount is reached.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

You pay (or your donors pay) for a Kirkus review.

Does Amazon have a policy AGAINST paid reviews?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> To me the deal breaker with Kirkus is that they stick the paid reviews off in a [self publilshing] ghetto.


This is the part that makes a paid Kirkus review a worthless review. I'd have the publisher submit it for a free review.


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

Okey Dokey said:


> You pay (or your donors pay) for a Kirkus review.
> 
> Does Amazon have a policy AGAINST paid reviews?


As far I am aware, Kirkus doesn't publish their reviews to Amazon.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Okey Dokey said:


> You pay (or your donors pay) for a Kirkus review.
> 
> Does Amazon have a policy AGAINST paid reviews?


Amazon's policy is only against paid customer reviews on Amazon. What Kirkus publishes on its own site or catalog is none of Amazon's concern. And Amazon actually encourages authors to list Kirkus reviews in the editorial section of a book's Amazon page.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

Paid reviews?

Isn't that what caused the uproar over John Locke's best selling book?

And if you're going that route, that $600 will go a long way on Fivver


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> This is the part that makes a paid Kirkus review a worthless review. I'd have the publisher submit it for a free review.


Yes -- I think this is why most people don't see it as a worthwhile investment, considering how expensive it is. It certainly appears, from the information on Kirkus' web site, that the Kirkus Indie reviews are not featured in the same places as the "regular" reviews -- and thus you're not even paying to be on the same playing field as tradpubbed book reviews. If the industry pros who read Kirkus only look at the tradpubbed reviews, how does it benefit an authors to pay for their review to be stuck in a separate column -- a column where it's made clear that these are purchased reviews?

I've been curious about the whole Kirkus Indie thing and have done similar Google searches to yours (mainly because another author in my subgenre has done it, and I have been trying to analyze, based on her sales rank and other promotional efforts, whether it's benefitted her at all). The most information I've been able to uncover on my own is that your review is labeled as a paid one, and not displayed alongside unpaid reviews for tradpubbed authors...and therefore doesn't seem like it's an effective use of that money to me. That's what I've uncovered by reading information about it online. I was hoping you'd uncovered some different information, because I like to take a look at stuff like this from all possible angles and I'd welcome a different perspective or different conclusion to my own.


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

Okey Dokey said:


> Paid reviews?
> 
> Isn't that what caused the uproar over John Locke's best selling book?
> 
> And if you're going that route, that $600 will go a long way on Fivver


Comparing John Locke to Kirkus is wrong in my opinion. John Locke's method wasn't transparent. This is.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

If a writer on Fivver is paid $5 for a review, and that writer doesn't purchase the book, then that is not a  paid "customer" review, just like Kirkus.

Or am I splitting hairs?


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## Edward Lake (Mar 11, 2012)

It worked for Darcie Chan. I had the pleasure of meeting her at the SP Expo last year and asked her a few questions about it. 

Still, it's rare that a Kirkus review would impact the success of your novel. And $600 is a lot of coin to lose, even if it's pledged to you by others. Why not spend the money on a $50 Midwest Book Review and save some of that money? Or use it to buy some BookBub ads?


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Before the mud-slinging gets too thick, there are several kboards authors who have had their books reviewed by Kirkus. _Respectable _ authors who I doubt would ever purposely do anything unethical. I haven't ever pursued Kirkus because I don't know enough about it and haven't had the time to research it to find out more. But I have heard their separation of trade books and indie books has hurt the ROI for indies.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

deanfromaustralia said:


> Comparing John Locke to Kirkus is wrong in my opinion.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


No, what Kirkus does is worse.

Locke bought reviews in such a way as to trick customers into thinking the reviews were from real customers. Kirkus treats indies like second-class citizens and charges them for something that they give trade publishers for free. Two different types of wrong, but both are still wrong.

Those of us who have been around the publishing industry for a long time stopped having respect for Kirkus a long time ago. Even many librarians no longer pay attention to Kirkus reviews unless they know it is a trade published book because they don't trust paid reviews.

And that is the larger point. The only people who actually care about Kirkus reviews to begin with are industry people. The average reader doesn't care about Kirkus. They are looking at the customer reviews. Does your publisher have a plan to put print books into libraries and brick and mortar stores? If yes, then the PUBLISHER should be pursuing this and not you. And if not, the Kirkus review is going to be $600 flushed down the toilet.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

The OP was pretty clear that he and his publisher are thinking about doing Kirkus in an attempt to gain some wider attention from industry professionals -- I'm assuming he means additional professional reviewers, and hopefully to gain some traction for awards.  Not just to boost sales to readers.  If the goal was to boost sales, I'd think that BookBub would be a better use of the $600, too -- but that doesn't seem to be their goal at this point.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

"Konrath's prose ranges from careless and wretched." - Kirkus

I used that blurb in my bio for a while, and it appeared on a few book jackets, way back in the days when books were made of paper.

It's funny that, last decade, getting reviewed by Kirkus, Booklist, PW, and Library Journal were so important to authors and publishers. A few months ago, Blake Crouch and I asked Amazon to remove our Kirkus and PW reviews from our books' Amazon pages. Even the favorable ones. 

Kirkus, and the rest of them, have done real harm to writers. A bad review once had the power to kill bookstore pre-orders, or library sales. Some cranky reviewer is having family problems, and gets an assignment to read in a genre he doesn't like, and a writer's income gets slashed by 30%.

My personal disgust for these journals aside, Julie is right that your publisher should be the one to solicit them, and others are right that Kirkus is scamming authors and the review is worthless.

The vast majority of readers don't know what Kirkus is. They're an industry rag, and don't sell to readers. If you want something like, "This book is terrific!" to appear on your cover above the title, ask for blurbs from well known authors who write in your genre.  

What are you hoping to achieve by getting a Kirkus review?


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Julie: The key here being that it is going to be someone else's money, not the author's or the publisher's, flushed down the toilet. Because neither of them feels its worth saving to do, or funding themselves, or borrowing the money to pay back later. The author prefers to ask others to fund this effort while he, as far as I can tell, invests none of his own cash, nor does the publisher. 

We haven't heard why the publisher doesn't actually submit it, unless, as I suspect, the small publisher really isn't one at all, and Kirkus wouldn't recognize it as a publisher, hence that option doesn't exist. Otherwise there's no reason for the publisher not to submit it, and no reason to ask others to do your own heavy lifting financially. Although, hey, if enough are willing to fund this for him, I can see the perspective of, "Why not? It's not like it's MY money I'm frittering away..."


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> No, what Kirkus does is worse.


Hey! We agree on something!


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Hey! We agree on something!


And in other news, parts of Hell reported unusually cold temperatures...


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

blakebooks said:


> Julie: The key here being that it is going to be someone else's money, not the author's or the publisher's, flushed down the toilet. Because neither of them feels its worth saving to do, or funding themselves, or borrowing the money to pay back later. The author prefers to ask others to fund this effort while he, as far as I can tell, invests none of his own cash, nor does the publisher.
> 
> We haven't heard why the publisher doesn't actually submit it, unless, as I suspect, the small publisher really isn't one at all, and Kirkus wouldn't recognize it as a publisher, hence that option doesn't exist. Otherwise there's no reason for the publisher not to submit it, and no reason to ask others to do your own heavy lifting financially. Although, hey, if enough are willing to fund this for him, I can see the perspective of, "Why not? It's not like it's MY money I'm frittering away..."


Crowd funding requires that the project offers incentives for people who wish to pledge to the project. Therefore, I have a clearly defined set of rewards for people who decide to pledge to the project. So I am not merely seeking something for nothing. And just to add to that, I am contributing some of my own money to this project.

Central Avenue Publishing - http://www.centralavenuepublishing.com Look them up.

If you look back through this thread, you will see that I did address the point of why I chose to take the route that I am hoping to take.

Finally, I have never entertained the idea that I'm frittering my money away.

There feels like there's a lot of hate going on in here...


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Dean: No hate. I understand you have to offer incentives. That's different than risking your own money to achieve an outcome. In venture capital, it's called no real skin in the game. If you're an investor, you always want the owners to have substantial skin in the game, or they have little or nothing to lose if their proposed venture tanks. How much of the $600 are you investing of your own hard cash? That's a fair question, since you offer it up.

I believe that paying Kirkus to publish a paid review in their indie publishing ghetto is frittering money away. I'm sure you don't believe that, or you wouldn't be asking others to put up their money so you can invest in this ad. The word frittering is mine.

Not to be a schoolmarm, but why not have your publisher submit it for free, see if it gets selected, and then, only if it doesn't get selected, see about raising the money to buy a review?

The world's a completely different place than it was when Darci did this over two years ago. It was probably worth something then. Now? I don't see it.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> The world's a completely different place than it was when Darci did this over two years ago. It was probably worth something then. Now? I don't see it.


This is a big point here. First, the Kirkus paid review program was still relatively new and librarians and bookstores weren't fully aware that these reviews were paid for. They were treating them like "normal" reviews. Second, Darcie also did a lot of traditional advertising in addition to the review. She spent thousands of dollars promoting her book. Third, she was already picking up some buzz before she got the Kirkus review. She had momentum going into the review. Fourth, she was able to capitalize on the 99 cent price because it still mattered then. Essentially, she hit a perfect storm that allowed her to get onto the bestsellers list. To point at Darcie and say "she's a success because of Kirkus" is giving Kirkus more credit than it deserves and ignoring all of the work she put into promoting that book long before she got the Kirkus review.

Can anyone name another book other than _The Mill River Recluse_ that Kirkus allegedly helped make a bestseller?


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

deanfromaustralia said:


> Look - it's a big ask to have me post the myriad links to the articles and threads and discussions that are going on all over the web.


It's a legitimate question, and no one's asking for you to link the Internet. 2-3 links would probably be enough to shed light on how you arrived at your decision, and it might help some people, especially those just starting, who are more likely to be separated from their money.

I have to say, I find your post quite curious.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

deanfromaustralia said:


> Is it right to pay for a review? I don't see any problem with paying for a service like this where I'm not influencing the review process.


I don't think it's right to pay for a review under any circumstances. I also doubt it will be effective.

Are you planning to have the review published if it's utterly negative? If not, you _are_ influencing the review process. By the way: Locke stressed that the reviewers should give their honest opinion about his books. I think this is coming awfully close to Kirkus's money scheme.


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## DBinSJ (Sep 13, 2013)

"Although publishers can indeed submit titles to Kirkus free for review, there are no guarantees that the title will be reviewed. By submitting the novel through Kirkus Indie - which allows for both self published and small press titles - and paying the fee, there is that guarantee there that the book will be reviewed."

Are you aware, though, that the only guarantee is that the review will be put up on the Kirkus *website* (if the author approves of the review)? There is no assurance that the review will make it into the journal that is distributed to libraries. In fact, the odds of that happening are rather low.

I recently paid for a Kirkus indie review myself. The review was very positive and yet it was only buried in the website, without getting into the journal.

Good luck!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

KayBratt said:


> Before the mud-slinging gets too thick, there are several kboards authors who have had their books reviewed by Kirkus. _Respectable _ authors who I doubt would ever purposely do anything unethical. I haven't ever pursued Kirkus because I don't know enough about it and haven't had the time to research it to find out more. But I have heard their separation of trade books and indie books has hurt the ROI for indies.


Personally, I don't think paying for a review is necessarily unethical as long as it is up front that the review is paid for which is the case with Kirkus. I doubt the effectiveness though for reasons already discussed here.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Wait. If you have a publisher, why wouldn't your PUBLISHER just send a copy of the book to Kirkus for review? Kirkus doesn't charge publishers. They only charge self publishers.
> 
> And for that matter, why are YOU handling getting reviews at all? This is the job of your publisher. This is where publishers are suppose to earn their keep. The job of a publisher is to do all of this stuff.


Being with a publisher doesn't mean you get kick back and relax. Unless your last name is Rowling, King, Patterson, etc., you still have to keep pushing hard. If you don't, you will soon find yourself among the writers who reminisces about the time they had publishing deal.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2013)

BrianDAnderson said:


> Being with a publisher doesn't mean you get kick back and relax. Unless your last name is Rowling, King, Patterson, etc., you still have to keep pushing hard. If you don't, you will soon find yourself among the writers who reminisces about the time they had publishing deal.


This isn't about relaxing. This is about why would someone pay $600 for something that *his publisher could submit for free.* This makes no more sense to me than paying for your own cover art or your own editing. There are certain things you just should not be paying for if you have a publisher. Paying doesn't even guarantee you a useful review. It only guarantees that they will post the review on their website. And it won't even be posted with the "regular" reviews, but in the self-publishing ghetto portion of the site.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Personally, I don't think paying for a review is necessarily unethical as long as it is up front that the review is paid for which is the case with Kirkus. I doubt the effectiveness though for reasons already discussed here.


I think that if you're going to pay for having your book reviewed you should do it before you publish it and by someone whose credentials you know and trust.

Then you can repair what needs to be repaired - if anything - before bothering your readers.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I think the OP said he thought his book was good and he was willing to pay for a Kirkus review.

Oh and just an opinion here: but every time I have read a good review from Kirkus or Midwestern (I think that is the name), the book was not my cup of tea.
Good luck though with your review.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

I don't see the lure - Indie or Trad. I see so many authors with starred (really hard to get) reviews from Kirkus and accolades from industry magazines and it does nothing. The readers don't see them so it doesn't affect their online sales. Maybe the booksellers read through the lists and order more print copies for the favorably reviewed, I don't know. It just doesn't seem to have any affect on their bottom line....


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Andrew Ashling said:


> I don't think it's right to pay for a review under any circumstances. I also doubt it will be effective.
> 
> Are you planning to have the review published if it's utterly negative? If not, you _are_ influencing the review process. By the way: Locke stressed that the reviewers should give their honest opinion about his books. I think this is coming awfully close to Kirkus's money scheme.


Well, I question whether it's even possible to get an utterly negative review if you've forked over $600 for it. I think that's the biggest rub here. Kirkus may have had a lot of influence in book distribution previously, but once they start accepting cash for reviews, can anybody trust that those reviews are genuine? Yes, I know there's always a chance that an unpaid review may not be genuine (or may be paid in less obvious ways), but it's not so blatantly and literally purchased.

It looked to me like Kirkus was just looking for a way to profit from indies when they announced their Kirkus Indie thing. I was never interested in doing it myself because I don't think overtly paid-for reviews can ever be wholly trusted, but like I said, I was pretty curious about that other indie doing ancient HF who did try it. I've been keeping an eye on her progress and trying to determine whether her foray into Kirkus Indie territory had any impact (positive or negative). I was hoping the OP might shed some light on that for me if he'd noticed something I hadn't.


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

ElHawk said:


> Well, I question whether it's even possible to get an utterly negative review if you've forked over $600 for it.


Oh, sure it is. Because you (indie) pay Kirkus, and Kirkus pays the reviewer. The reviewer doesn't care about your feelings or repeat business or any of that--reviewer gets paid no matter what is said. So there's no incentive to overly praise or overly damn anything. I suppose if most Kirkus reviews were negative, then perhaps their business would dip slightly? although even then I'm not so sure. Sometimes I'm MORE likely to submit a book I really believe in to a blogger who seems harsh. Because then I know if I manage to impress that blogger, the review will stand out.

I just don't see a Kirkus review for their indie ghetto making enough difference, no matter how glowing, to justify paying more than, say, $25. And even then, that's if you have money to burn. You'd be better off IMO paying the $25 to FK Books and Tips to advertise a .99 sale for you, something like that. Or mailing out paperbacks to respected book bloggers who prefer print to ebooks.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

ElHawk said:


> Well, I question whether it's even possible to get an utterly negative review if you've forked over $600 for it. I think that's the biggest rub here. Kirkus may have had a lot of influence in book distribution previously, but once they start accepting cash for reviews, can anybody trust that those reviews are genuine? Yes, I know there's always a chance that an unpaid review may not be genuine (or may be paid in less obvious ways), but it's not so blatantly and literally purchased.
> 
> It looked to me like Kirkus was just looking for a way to profit from indies when they announced their Kirkus Indie thing. I was never interested in doing it myself because I don't think overtly paid-for reviews can ever be wholly trusted, but like I said, I was pretty curious about that other indie doing ancient HF who did try it. I've been keeping an eye on her progress and trying to determine whether her foray into Kirkus Indie territory had any impact (positive or negative). I was hoping the OP might shed some light on that for me if he'd noticed something I hadn't.


Some time in the last year--I don't remember exactly when--someone posted here, very upset because he'd paid good money for an unusable Kirkus review. (I was newer to the boards, but it didn't feel like satire to me.) I don't remember, though, whether it was a genuine negative review, or simply one of those: "5 stars, but it mentioned something that the author didn't want emphasized" reviews that we see people fretting about, now and then.


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## olefish (Jan 24, 2012)

the problem is for all that trouble for a 600 dollar review, the review will be buried on the website. It won't get seen by the industry professionals. Readers won't care for the review either way. So why pursue it? Asking readers to fork over money for a useless review is a little ... 

It feels like you're impatient.  The free kirkus review is the more valuable one. That's the one the industry professionals get to see.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

You'll get a much better return on your investment if you instead buy a $399 slot on NetGalley for 6 months. 

You will get tons of exposure and dozens of real, quality and honest reviews from industry bloggers and reviewers that actually matter.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I'll do it for $500.  For $550 I'll include the term "Literary integrity."

God Bless the free market.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

1001nightspress said:


> Oh, sure it is. Because you (indie) pay Kirkus, and Kirkus pays the reviewer.


Ah, I see. Yeah, that would make a terrible review plausible.



> Sometimes I'm MORE likely to submit a book I really believe in to a blogger who seems harsh. Because then I know if I manage to impress that blogger, the review will stand out.


This is exactly what I did on Goodreads when I launched The Sekhmet Bed. It worked really well for me, and in no small part because followers of those reviewers knew they were famously harsh and not likely to praise something that wasn't actually praise-worthy.



> I just don't see a Kirkus review for their indie ghetto making enough difference, no matter how glowing, to justify paying more than, say, $25. And even then, that's if you have money to burn. You'd be better off IMO paying the $25 to FK Books and Tips to advertise a .99 sale for you, something like that. Or mailing out paperbacks to respected book bloggers who prefer print to ebooks.


I think that's true in today's marketplace. If the indie stuff was not ghettoized, it could conceivably be worth the investment if it had a good chance of attracting more influential eyes (again, I'm thinking of awards and distribution here, not immediate sales.) However, with all the indie stuff segregated to the web site, or, if you're really lucky, to a sectioned off "indie corral" in the print magazine, it just doesn't seem likely to recoup the cost.


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## maryannaevans (Apr 10, 2010)

All my traditionally published books have gotten KIRKUS reviews, and they've generally been good.  Sometimes, even glowing.  I'll carry "...delightfully erudite..." in my heart until the day I die.  But I think the fact that nobody here has probably heard of me after eight books that have hauled in mostly fabulous reviews should tell us something.  And that something is that $600 is probably too much to pay for a review from KIRKUS.

As for whether it will be useful if you do it anyway, well, these people are probably right that the people with the power to buy books in quantity (which is who you want to reach with a major journal) will not see an ad in the Indie section of the website.  Nevertheless, there is value in being able to put the review on your Amazon page and to use excerpts in your sig lines and on your website.  (Guess how many times I've used "...delightfully erudite..."  I have no idea, but it's a lot.)

So...I think $600 is too much and that you probably won't see the results you'd like, but I understand why you'd want to give it a shot.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

Vera Nazarian said:


> You'll get a much better return on your investment if you instead buy a $399 slot on NetGalley for 6 months.


You also get a much better return on your investment if you did a Youtube video of you putting $600 into a blender and chopping it into confetti. Title it "Author Wastes $600 Rather Than Gives it toKirkus", and have your book next to the blender.

Seriously. At least some people will see the video. NO ONE goes to Kirkus's website, except authors looking to give Kirkus money.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Jack Kilborn said:


> You also get a much better return on your investment if you did a Youtube video of you putting $600 into a blender and chopping it into confetti. Title it "Author Wastes $600 Rather Than Gives it toKirkus", and have your book next to the blender.
> 
> Seriously. At least some people will see the video. NO ONE goes to Kirkus's website, except authors looking to give Kirkus money.


That's actually a pretty rockin' idea. I'd watch that video, and I'd see your book title.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Perhaps do a short tutorial on making origami birds using hundred dollar bills, and then set them alight as you do a Hugh dance in tutu and tights. If it goes viral, you'll be another Ylvis. 

Which has more chance of improving your books sales than a Kirkus indie review. Just saying.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Wait. If you have a publisher, why wouldn't your PUBLISHER just send a copy of the book to Kirkus for review? Kirkus doesn't charge publishers. They only charge self publishers.
> 
> And for that matter, why are YOU handling getting reviews at all? This is the job of your publisher. This is where publishers are suppose to earn their keep. The job of a publisher is to do all of this stuff.


You nailed it.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I have nothing nice to say.


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

Vera Nazarian said:


> You'll get a much better return on your investment if you instead buy a $399 slot on NetGalley for 6 months.
> 
> You will get tons of exposure and dozens of real, quality and honest reviews from industry bloggers and reviewers that actually matter.


What Vera said.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This isn't about relaxing. This is about why would someone pay $600 for something that *his publisher could submit for free.* This makes no more sense to me than paying for your own cover art or your own editing. There are certain things you just should not be paying for if you have a publisher. Paying doesn't even guarantee you a useful review. It only guarantees that they will post the review on their website. And it won't even be posted with the "regular" reviews, but in the self-publishing ghetto portion of the site.


If it's not free for the publisher, they may not have the ad and marketing budget. I'm not certain about Kirkus, but most sites charge the publisher as well, though often at a discount. And if sales do not justify the expense they won't spend the capital. The author then must take it upon his/herself to come up with the money. I use a marketing agency from time to time that represents several big six authors, and it's not the publisher that pays for the marketing campaign. 
Like it or not, if you want good marketing, it costs. It doesn't matter who your publisher is. Unless you are a proven best seller, they won't spend the money. At least not in the amounts people think.


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

Okay, so I've been watching this thread as it has evolved and while I'm overawed and bewildered by the direction it has gone in, there are some contributors who have offered up some good advice worth considering. 

At this point, I'm reconsidering my goal.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2013)

BrianDAnderson said:


> If it's not free for the publisher,


Yes. Yes it is. I think this is what folks don't understand. *Publishers don't pay for reviews*. Period. End of story. Kirkus does not charge publishers for reviews. ALL of those sites that charge for reviews? Trade publishers don't use them. No publisher is going to pay $600 for a review that is buried on a shady part of a website nobody looks at when they can buy an actual ad for that price or less.

And please, let's not do the old "publishers don't market" routine. I work in contract packaging, and some of our clients ARE in fact major publishers. They spend a lot of money on marketing. But publishers do not market like indies. They don't place ads on BookBub. They buy in store displays that go in Target. They don't buy reviews. They buy booths at book conventions attended by retail managers and libraries. And those displays include books from both bestsellers and first time authors (they use something called "bookending" where the bestsellers are on the end of the display to draw the customer in and then the newer books are featured inside the display itself.)

Trade publishers promote in places indies can't afford to be. $400 on an ad in Library Journal or Book Pages is nothing to a trade publisher. The amount of money companies (both publishers and general consumer commodities) are spending on target demographic research right now is ridiculous. Publishers can pinpoint which WalMarts to send which books based on individual store demographics.You might say "See? So-and-so's book isn't stocked in my local BN, so the publishers aren't promoting it." The reality on the ground is the publisher sent the book to other BNs in different cities based on thousands of dollars in research data telling them which stores are most likely to effectively sell the book. A lot of it is invisible to the average person because it is based on proprietary data that you can't get access to as an indie. I had to file a disclosure for one of our customers because I self publish so that I didn't get copied on certain proprietary information and create a conflict of interest.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Yes. Yes it is. I think this is what folks don't understand. *Publishers don't pay for reviews*. Period. End of story. Kirkus does not charge publishers for reviews. ALL of those sites that charge for reviews? Trade publishers don't use them. No publisher is going to pay $600 for a review that is buried on a shady part of a website nobody looks at when they can buy an actual ad for that price or less.
> 
> And please, let's not do the old "publishers don't market" routine. I work in contract packaging, and some of our clients ARE in fact major publishers. They spend a lot of money on marketing. But publishers do not market like indies. They don't place ads on BookBub. They buy in store displays that go in Target. They don't buy reviews. They buy booths at book conventions attended by retail managers and libraries. And those displays include books from both bestsellers and first time authors (they use something called "bookending" where the bestsellers are on the end of the display to draw the customer in and then the newer books are featured inside the display itself.)
> 
> Trade publishers promote in places indies can't afford to be. $400 on an ad in Library Journal or Book Pages is nothing to a trade publisher. The amount of money companies (both publishers and general consumer commodities) are spending on target demographic research right now is ridiculous. Publishers can pinpoint which WalMarts to send which books based on individual store demographics.You might say "See? So-and-so's book isn't stocked in my local BN, so the publishers aren't promoting it." The reality on the ground is the publisher sent the book to other BNs in different cities based on thousands of dollars in research data telling them which stores are most likely to effectively sell the book. A lot of it is invisible to the average person because it is based on proprietary data that you can't get access to as an indie. I had to file a disclosure for one of our customers because I self publish so that I didn't get copied on certain proprietary information and create a conflict of interest.


As I said in case you missed it, I wasn't sure about Kirkus. Perhaps I should use bold type and it will emphasize the importance I perceive my words to possess. As for other sites such as NetGalley where publishers of all sizes do in fact list books, and though it's not required, reviews are expected - No. No it's not free. Target ads certainly are costly, but I can't recall any debut authors plastered all over the book section. I'll look harder next time I'm there. maybe I just missed it. Goodreads banners start at $5000. Amazon ads, $10,000, B&N $15,000. Even lesser sites can run as much as $1,500. All of these market tools are not likely to be used on authors unless they are either selling books, have sold book in the past, or the publisher has a very good reason to expect a best seller.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> And please, let's not do the old "publishers don't market" routine.


Publishers definitely market. However, that tells us nothing about how much marketing they do for any specific book. For any specific book, it could range from expending anywhere from zero to a millions dollars.


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## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

If you know what you want to do--Go for it!

Kirkus is just one method, in a countless array of methods. The worst that could happen is that you spend $600 dollars and get a negative review. But then you will have something you didn't have before--knowledge. You can figure out why it didn't work and how to make it work better the next time. You gotta try first though. Six hundred dollars really isn't that much money.

As far as the asking people to contribute for your project, I don't see any problem with that. In a recent post on this forum (I think it was "What happens when writers get paid $0.00") people said that writers could say "NO!" when asked to work for free. Well guess what? People can say no when asked to contribute money to this endeavor.

_The Indie Ghetto._ Sigh. That's like saying the only way people can find your website is if they go through your homepage. It's the internet, people can jump to any page on your website that links to it. I'm sure this Indie Ghetto can be found in search engines which may be what allows someone to discover your work.

So Kirkus treats you differently because you're Indie. Shrug, get used to it. That's life. Publishers treat best-selling authors differently than mid-list ones. Agents treat top earning clients better than ones who don't earn that much. Amazon promotes top selling books over books that don't sell that much.

Maybe a review won't get you instant sells, instant recognition, instant success. But how many things will?

A Kirkus review is only another brick in the foundation. It's something you can build upon, something you can leverage.



maryannaevans said:


> Nevertheless, there is value in being able to put the review on your Amazon page and to use excerpts in your sig lines and on your website. (Guess how many times I've used "...delightfully erudite..." I have no idea, but it's a lot.)


There are a lot of smart people on this forum. But sometimes...sometimes... I think there is a lot of Pete and Repeat that goes on. For instance ask someone here where to advertise and they will tell you the same three sites that everyone always brings up--because "They're the only ones that work! Nothing else has the same impact!"

Until something else does. Then people try to copy it and make a new statement about what works.

The thing is, I think small steps are important. Small improvements are important. Writing one book may not get you success, but writing three might. Learning how to improve your covers might not see immediate results, until you've learned enough along the way about what works, what doesn't, and why. Doing signings at more than 500 bookstores might not have much of an impact, until it teaches you how to market. Improving and editing one story might not make much of a change in how your writing appeals to people, until all of those small improvements start to add up.

You want to advertise on Kirkus--Go for it!

The worst thing that can happen is that it fails. And then you learn. And hopefully improve.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2013)

A.R. Williams said:


> Kirkus is just one method, in a countless array of methods. The worst that could happen is that you spend $600 dollars and get a negative review.


Or you can spend nothing, do a giveaway on Goodreads or Librarything, and get a whole bunch of reviews.



> But then you will have something you didn't have before--knowledge.


No, you'll just have a negative review. If you are spending $600 to get knowledge, hire a content editor.



> Six hundred dollars really isn't that much money.


$600 is a month's groceries for a lot of people. $600 is tuition. $600 is a rent payment. Unless you are in the 1%, $600 IS a lot of money to spend, particularly on a one-shot review with minimal value.



> The Indie Ghetto. Sigh. That's like saying the only way people can find your website is if they go through your homepage. It's the internet, people can jump to any page on your website that links to it. I'm sure this Indie Ghetto can be found in search engines which may be what allows someone to discover your work.


Do you even know what we are talking about? Do you think the average reader actually does web searched for "Kirkus paid reviews" or Kirkus reviews of indie books" or anything like that? It would be one thing if the site actually generated a lot of consumer traffic and you knew that your $600 was going to be seen by actual readers. But nobody goes to the Kirkus site these days unless they are looking to buy a review or seeing if their review was posted.

Just for data, look at the Alexa listing for the Kirkus 

The average visitor looks at less than two pages, and is on the site less than 2 minutes. The site has a 55% bounce (i.e. people only look at one page and move on). That means people are not browsing the site to learn more about books. KBoards has better visitor retention and pageviews! Just looking at the cost/benefit of spending $600 with any outlet, this is a bad spend. Nobody is going to see that review unless you tell them it is there, and all THAT really does is promote Kirkus...not you.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> KBoards[/url] has better visitor retention and pageviews!


And 5.7% of our visitors are from Belgium and 4.5% are from the Netherlands. Only US, UK and Canada are higher.  I don't know what that means but I found that interesting. 
 

Betsy


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Or you can spend nothing, do a giveaway on Goodreads or Librarything, and get a whole bunch of reviews.
> 
> No, you'll just have a negative review. If you are spending $600 to get knowledge, hire a content editor.
> 
> ...


I LOVE YOU. That is all.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

XXXXXXXXXX


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2013)

BrianDAnderson said:


> As for other sites such as NetGalley where publishers of all sizes do in fact list books, and though it's not required, reviews are expected - No. No it's not free.


NetGalley and those type of programs are administrative in function. You aren't buying a review from a specific media outlet. You are paying someone to identify and distribute books to reviewers for you. NetGalley is administrative. No different than having an in-house employee go looking for places to get reviews (but less labor intensive.) This is not the same thing as "give me $100 and I will write a review."



> Target ads certainly are costly, but I can't recall any debut authors plastered all over the book section. I'll look harder next time I'm there.


I wasn't talking about ads. I was talking about in-store displays. Those things you trip over in the store.   But if you have the time and inclination, visit several different WalMarts in different demographic areas and you may actually see what I am talking about. The books sold in a WalMart in Cherry Hill, NJ are not the same books sold at a Walmart in Vineland, NJ. Here in South ********, with so many towns stacked on top of each other, you can visit ten WalMarts within an hour of each other and see ten different inventory in the book section. Generally, they will all "lead" with the bestsellers, but the mid-list offerings will vary based on location.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> NetGalley and those type of programs are administrative in function. You aren't buying a review from a specific media outlet. You are paying someone to identify and distribute books to reviewers for you. NetGalley is administrative. No different than having an in-house employee go looking for places to get reviews (but less labor intensive.) This is not the same thing as "give me $100 and I will write a review."
> 
> I wasn't talking about ads. I was talking about in-store displays. Those things you trip over in the store.   But if you have the time and inclination, visit several different WalMarts in different demographic areas and you may actually see what I am talking about. The books sold in a WalMart in Cherry Hill, NJ are not the same books sold at a Walmart in Vineland, NJ. Here in South Jersey, with so many towns stacked on top of each other, you can visit ten WalMarts within an hour of each other and see ten different inventory in the book section. Generally, they will all "lead" with the bestsellers, but the mid-list offerings will vary based on location.


I can't say for books at Wal-mart but I know on their movies, the selections are different and sometimes other stuff in the stores too. There are 4 Walmart supercenters within 30 minutes of my house. (2 different towns) East and West are in one town and North and South are in the other. West Walmart has the largest selection of Hispanic stuff and less of everything else. Also only their cheaper groceries.West also has an almost non-existent craft department. East Walmart is a bit higher end and has a slightly better selection due to its location on the "better" side of town. Decent craft department. (still mostly blue collar) South Walmart is cleaner and has a decent selection of movies but the books are still lacking not sure about their craft department. They have more brand names than the east/west stores because they cater primarily to the white collar crowd. Now the North Walmart is out on the interstate. Now their craft selection is horrid and mostly kitted stuff but for automotive, movies, books, sporting goods and other stuff that everyone needs, they have the best selection. Their main demographic is travelers.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Or you can spend nothing, do a giveaway on Goodreads or Librarything, and get a whole bunch of reviews."


Or you can do both.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Do you even know what we are talking about? Do you think the average reader actually does web searched for "Kirkus paid reviews" or Kirkus reviews of indie books" or anything like that? It would be one thing if the site actually generated a lot of consumer traffic and you knew that your $600 was going to be seen by actual readers. But nobody goes to the Kirkus site these days unless they are looking to buy a review or seeing if their review was posted.


As a reader, I stopped reading Kirkus quotes anywhere since I found out they might be paid reviews. These days I prefer reviews by Publisher's Weekly or Library Journal if at all...


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Or you can do both.


Or save $100 and have you review it!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Or save $100 and have you review it!


I'll discount the "Literary integrity" option by $25. That's $525 for the package.


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## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Or you can spend nothing, do a giveaway on Goodreads or Librarything, and get a whole bunch of reviews.


As I said, one method in an array of methods.



> No, you'll just have a negative review. If you are spending $600 to get knowledge, hire a content editor.


It doesn't matter how you attain knowledge--it's still knowledge.



> $600 is a month's groceries for a lot of people. $600 is tuition. $600 is a rent payment. Unless you are in the 1%, $600 IS a lot of money to spend, particularly on a one-shot review with minimal value.


Are you a business? Are you serious about your efforts? Are you willing to do what it takes to succeed? Save $50 dollars a paycheck, save $20, save $10.

$600 dollars is nothing.



> Do you even know what we are talking about? Do you think the average reader actually does web searched for "Kirkus paid reviews" or Kirkus reviews of indie books" or anything like that? It would be one thing if the site actually generated a lot of consumer traffic and you knew that your $600 was going to be seen by actual readers. But nobody goes to the Kirkus site these days unless they are looking to buy a review or seeing if their review was posted.


Do you know what you're talking about? You don't have to search "Kirkus paid reviews" in order to get a link to that web page. If the average reader is unaware of Kirkus, Kirkus paid reviews, or Kirkus reviews of indie books--then the average reader will consider the review for what it's worth.

Now, I said it was a brick in the foundation.

Readers don't have to go to the Kirkus site! (But they can!)

If you have a website, if you have a Facebook Fanpage, if you have Twitter, if you have a blog (hopefully things people will visit frequently). You can link to it. You can have the review front and center, in large red blinking type if you like. And since the average reader is unaware of Kirkus, Kirkus paid reviews, or Kirkus reviews of indie books--then the average reader will probably go--"My, that's a nice review!"



> Just for data, look at the Alexa listing for the Kirkus
> 
> The average visitor looks at less than two pages, and is on the site less than 2 minutes. The site has a 55% bounce (i.e. people only look at one page and move on). That means people are not browsing the site to learn more about books. KBoards has better visitor retention and pageviews! Just looking at the cost/benefit of spending $600 with any outlet, this is a bad spend. Nobody is going to see that review unless you tell them it is there, and all THAT really does is promote Kirkus...not you.


But what if the page they look at is yours! What if the two minutes they spend is on your review. Hmmm...the cost/benefit of spending $600 on any outlet is a bad spend? Really? How do you know if you haven't tried it?

What if it's on Amazon? What if it's some brand new hot-to-trot site and you can get on the ground floor cheap? What if it's a genre specific site that has readers interested in your genre? Could anyone predict Bookbub? Can anyone predict the next site that will rocket indie e-Books up the charts? Can anyone predict the next success story?

No one predicted Amanda Hocking, or John Locke, or Hugh Howey, or Darcey Chan. But here's the thing--none of them were overnight successes. They took small, incremental steps and then built upon them. Then they kept building. And then when chance happened. When luck happened. When circumstance happened. They were there. Ready.

If you tell them the review is there--then people will see it. If you tell them your book exists--then people will know that it exists. If you tell them and it promotes Kirkus--Kirkus may just become review capital of the interenet--and you made it happen. And your review will be on the site  (It's a streeeeetch, but who knows, it could happen).


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2013)

A.R. Williams said:


> But what if the page they look at is yours! What if the two minutes they spend is on your review. Hmmm...the cost/benefit of spending $600 on any outlet is a bad spend? Really? How do you know if you haven't tried it?


Unlike others here, I actually do spend money on ads. Over the years, I've dropped money on ads in BookPages and Realms of Fantasy and other publications, and those ads often cost several hundred dollars. I am not someone opposed to spending money smart. What I am telling you is that this is not a smart way to spend $600.

I run a business. I run a profitable business. I run with no debt. I run a business in which each project recovers its costs in 90 days. And I am able to do that because I make smart spends instead of "throw enough crap against the wall and hope it sticks" spends. $600 on a Kirkus review that is not seen by anyone is a bad spend. Sure, someone "might" see it. But someone might also see a billboard on some backwater road in the mountains of Kentucky. Someone "might" see a flyer left in the men's restroom at a rest stop on the ************* Turnpike. People "might" see things all over the place. The question becomes what are the most effective places to showcase your work?

A business has finite resources. You have to spend them smart or you go out of business. A smart business sets a finite budget for marketing. And then you spend those ad dollars smart to get the maximum results. You don't flush money on maybe/kinda/you-don't-knows/could happens. $600 on a Kirkus review is a bad decision. No amount of "maybes" or "what ifs" factor into a business decision like this. Because the facts on the ground are that readers barely pay attention to Kirkus reviews, librarians are suspicious of their paid reviews, and unless you actually have a game plan to put books in stores, the Kirkus review is going to matter less to a bookstore than whether or not you can offer full returnability and a industry-standard discount.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> NetGalley and those type of programs are administrative in function. You aren't buying a review from a specific media outlet. You are paying someone to identify and distribute books to reviewers for you. NetGalley is administrative. No different than having an in-house employee go looking for places to get reviews (but less labor intensive.) This is not the same thing as "give me $100 and I will write a review."
> 
> I wasn't talking about ads. I was talking about in-store displays. Those things you trip over in the store.   But if you have the time and inclination, visit several different WalMarts in different demographic areas and you may actually see what I am talking about. The books sold in a WalMart in Cherry Hill, NJ are not the same books sold at a Walmart in Vineland, NJ. Here in South Jersey, with so many towns stacked on top of each other, you can visit ten WalMarts within an hour of each other and see ten different inventory in the book section. Generally, they will all "lead" with the bestsellers, but the mid-list offerings will vary based on location.


I've actually looked into getting my books into Wal-mart. Frankly, you have a better chance than you do at B&N.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Interesting thread. While I agree that Kirkus reviewing indies for pay, while reviewing trad books for free is smelly and rotten, that's kind of beside the point. If someone is fine with paying for a review from Kirkus, then the point is this: Is paying $600 for a Kirkus review worth it?

I think the most helpful posts on this thread are from people who did pay for Kirkus reviews. All authors on this thread who did pay for Kirkus reviews felt like it did not help their sales in the way that $600 should.

I also agree with what Julie said about Darcie Chan. There were many factors that pushed her book in the top 10. Yes, she bought a Kirkus review, but that was not the only thing she did, so it's not fair to place that much importance on it.

Based on evidence posted here, I would say that paying for a Kirkus review is not going to help you sell books.

I love Konrath's idea of the blender video. Bravo.


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## joanhallhovey (Nov 7, 2010)

When I was published by a well known New York publisher they did get me a couple of reviews for my novel, but I went after most of them on my own.  Unless you're a very big name we authors  still have to do most of the promoting ourselves, whether traditionally published or independent.  I've never paid for a review and I'm not sure they really help with sales.  But if you've got a couple of big reviewers like Kirkus in mind, it would be worthwhile to ask your publisher to send it along to them.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Unlike others here, I actually do spend money on ads."


I'm proud to be counted among the others. But I'm dismayed that all those years of business can be trumped by placing a book ad. If I had only known...


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I'm proud to be counted among the others. But I'm dismayed that all those years of business can be trumped by placing a book ad. If I had only known...


I think you need to start placing ads for your book review service. You are leaving money on the table!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think you need to start placing ads for your book review service. You are leaving money on the table!


Now that is harsh. Really harsh.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2013)

The average review/books sold for me is less than 1%. I'm guessing it the same for most of you, too. It can be frustrating when you are needing the accolades to give your book public credibility. But I really do believe that organic reviews are better. I know several people who have had a Kirkus review (I don't know how they did it -if own their own or through a publisher). To the best of my knowledge it did nothing for their sales. However, people do look at amazon reviews once they reach a certain number (they assume that the first few are friends and family). 
My next series I will be sending pre-release copies to every newspaper in the country that I can find that has a review section at least 12 weeks in advance, as well as Publishers Weekly. I would do it with my current series, but there is really no point. I will also put it up on NetGalley 4 weeks prior (taking it down after release). This is what I would have done if I knew before Book One came out what I know now.


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

Let's stir the hornets nest one more time...

Following a successful crowdfunding campaign via Pozible, I was able to raise the funds required to submit my novel to Kirkus for review. I have just completed the submission process today.

In addition to Kirkus, I have also submitted my novel for review at the San Francisco Book Review.

I have a tentative date for mid April when the reviews will be available.

Will it do anything? Who knows. For me, it was worth a shot...


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

Good for you for trying something different, Dean. I remember D.A had a kirkus review with his First Activation novel - don't know if that was through a publisher or it was indie review. ( http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EE3UR02/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_tmb )


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

Meh. I don't consider $600 to Kirkus a wise investment, but it's not my money, so experiment away! Who knows? Maybe it'll become this year's BookBub.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

Standard review service (not expedited) is $425, which is a little more reasonable than $600. Is it worth it? I took a chance on this a year ago, and while the resulting review was fantastic, I find the impact impossible to quantify in terms of sales. I didn't see a Darcie Chan like explosion. What I did get out of the review were some excellent lines to paste on Amazon, and a compelling front cover quote. My book's description page starts with:

"Konkoly has crafted a well-paced thriller that sets his new series in motion, providing entertaining plot twists, nifty evasion techniques and a healthy dose of cynicism about government agencies...A promising start to a complex new black-ops thriller series" - Kirkus Reviews

The front cover displays: "A promising start to a complex new black-ops thriller series." -Kirkus Reviews

These lines are almost always quoted first when my book is featured on any of the promotion sites, including BookBub. Kirkus is a heavy in the industry, and their recommendations means something to many prospective readers. Not to me, or maybe to you, but it's another potential card in the deck, and an expensive and risky card at that. There's no guarantee that you'll get a positive review, or a quotable review. They cite statistics claiming that over 70% of submitters do not select to publish their reviews on Kirkus Indie...this is their sales rep telling me this, but I believe the statistic is accurate.

I submitted the second book in the same series, and while the review was positive, it almost seemed like the reviewer was trying not to give me a quotable sentence. When compared the structure of the first review to the second, I realized what Kirkus was doing. There is no doubt that the reviewer read the book (same reviewer), but what they do is regurgitate the books plot for 80% of the review, sprinkling a few comments here and there in that first 80%...then the subjective stuff arrives. In my first review, the sentences were crisp, clear and useable. Not so much in the second review. It was a bad review...as in poorly written review. 

Overall, I wouldn't recommend the service, nor would I submit another book. I'm glad I did it for the first book in the series, but I'm not sure the reward outweighs the financial risk.


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## deanfromaustralia (Mar 24, 2011)

I've just posted this...

http://www.deanfromaustralia.com/2014/02/on-consideration-of-paid-review.html


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