# If publishing houses die, who will filter out the "good" books from the noise?



## DanG (Mar 10, 2011)

Okay, so publishers aren't imminently doomed and they frequently miss on great books to publish anyway (and Kindle has provided a way to find great authors ourselves), but they have acted as the filter for providing the public with access to what are supposed to be good books and not the so-called slush.

In the world of Kindle and so many choices, what to YOU do to find the books worth your dollars?

*Do you have favorite sources (such as, perhaps, established Amazon reviewers you trust) to find the kinds of books you love?* 

With publishers struggling to stay in business, I wonder what the new filter of "good" will be...


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## zizekpress (Mar 9, 2011)

We will be filter-less.

I guess small presses might build up some kind of trust with some readers, you never know?


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

Authors who work very hard and readers.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

It will likely be filtered in pretty much the ways most of us at KB are already using: ratings/reviews at e-retailers like Amazon, bloggers who we find have similar tastes to ours, forums like KB, and online social media. In other words, thousands of readers will be helping to filter for other readers, as opposed to a few editors and marketers at a few publishing companies.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I been buying a lot of books with smaller publishers since they are more affordable right now. I still kind of want that "filter" or whatever you call it. I just don't feel comfortable having to wade through books after books to find good stuff. I don't have the time to read samples after samples. 

So for me small publishers first vetting, specific reviews another vetting process. By following that, I have been able to buy pretty much each sample I read. 

So for me, I sure hope they don't die out, especially the smaller ones that keep kindle prices affordable.


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## GayleC (Feb 16, 2011)

I think part of it will fall to the reviewers, although we'll probably find ourselves pickier about WHICH reviewers we listen to. I was just asked to review a book that's gotten glowing (and I mean, ga-LOW-ing) reviews, but they must have been from relatives. It's a book with promise, but needs a severe edit.

Part of it will also depend on that "download the first three chapters" option to try before you buy. Yes, the first chapter of any book has probably been scrubbed more than a surgeon's hands, but you should be able to get a feel for whether the story is compelling. I think readers are going to be a lot less patient - if it's not enticing them within the trial period, they're not going to want to keep going. 

Another thing, for the truly scrupulous, picky buyer is to look at the overall impression, of both the author and the book. How's the cover design? Does the author have a nice website, or is it full of typos? 

The last refuge is that, if you don't like the book, Amazon will refund your money. But can you post a review to keep the rest of us from buying it?


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## Steven L. Hawk (Jul 10, 2010)

I will continue to do what I do now.  My process looks like this: 

Step 1.  See an interesting cover
Step 2.  Read an interesting blurb 
Step 3.  Download and read the sample 

Each step, if successful, leads me to the next.  Any book can fall out of the running at any step.  If all three are passed, I usually proceed to:

Step 4.  One click the book.

Works like a charm 95% of the time.  Now, if I could just find a way to eliminate that last, measly 5%.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

GayleC said:


> The last refuge is that, if you don't like the book, Amazon will refund your money. But can you post a review to keep the rest of us from buying it?


Unfortunately, I am reading more and more how people will only review if they have a positive review to share, they state they will not leave anything negative. This makes it harder and harder to weed out the bad as it gets harder and harder to trust the reviews. I prefer Goodreads lately for reviews, not always quite as glowing, but more honest in my opinion.


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## Starry Eve (Mar 10, 2011)

What makes for a 'good' book anyhow when taste in literature and art is subjective? I tend to be drawn towards subjective matter, title, and cover first. The first few sentences and/or paragraphs also help determine whether I'll buy it or not. For me, reviews aren't all that significant.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

The publishers don't publish "good"  books, they publish books that they think are marketable.


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## Malweth (Oct 18, 2009)

scarlet said:


> The publishers don't publish "good" books, they publish books that they think are marketable.


QFT. Dan Brown's last book is an excellent example!

Publishers fail often enough on identifying the marketable books, too.


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## Mike Cooley (Mar 12, 2011)

scarlet said:


> The publishers don't publish "good" books, they publish books that they think are marketable.


Very true. And I would add the word 'mass' right before 'marketable.'

The downside of the new paradigm is that more stuff that shouldn't be published, is.

But the upside is HUGE. The upside is that more works that are never going to appeal to EVERYONE can be published
and find their audience.

I think it will end up being a grassroots, word-of-mouth type situation, where the best indie authors and books
generate their own "buzz," and find a wider audience.

Mike


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## Neil Clarke (Mar 14, 2011)

I believe that some of the most interesting stuff is coming out of the small press, particularly if you are interested in short fiction. There are editors and small press publishers that I've come to trust to pick good material. I'm more likely to pick experience with their taste over the word of a reviewer.


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## James043 (Mar 10, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I been buying a lot of books with smaller publishers since they are more affordable right now. I still kind of want that "filter" or whatever you call it. I just don't feel comfortable having to wade through books after books to find good stuff. I don't have the time to read samples after samples.
> 
> So for me small publishers first vetting, specific reviews another vetting process. By following that, I have been able to buy pretty much each sample I read.
> 
> So for me, I sure hope they don't die out, especially the smaller ones that keep kindle prices affordable.


Thanks for this piece of information. The way you worded it is appreciated. It is truly an investment of time to read a book. I understood that, but didn't even think in terms of just searching for a book and the piles that are waded through and the undesired content read, just finding one you liked, that must now be purged from the mind.

As a self-published family hoping to grow into a small-press we've actively sought reviews with the complete understanding that "Who the heck is gonna trust a newbie with * hours of their time" and as much as possible try to participate in conversations that engage these questions.

James


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

I'll be finding books the same way as I always have - by talking to my friends who read just as voraciously as myself.  Second to that will be buying books from authors I already like, checking out review sites I trust and reading samples, samples, samples.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

Malweth said:


> QFT. Dan Brown's last book is an excellent example!
> 
> Publishers fail often enough on identifying the marketable books, too.


Ahhh, you beat me to it. I was going to say that the big publishers certainly didn't filter out Dan Brown.

I think with on-line resources (not just reviewers for major newspapers, but also bloggers and sites like these) readers will be steered towards good books and authors. I have purchased many books based on recommendations here at Kindleboards. I have liked some of these books more than others, but I have not yet asked Amazon for a refund.


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## Jenni (Feb 20, 2011)

Bob Mayer said:


> Authors who work very hard and readers.


What Bob said.


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## Dan Ames (Feb 8, 2011)

The marketplace.  There's a saying in advertising that goes something like:  "Advertising doesn't help bad products succeed.  Advertising helps bad products fail faster."  Because a consumer will try a product once, and if it sucks, they'll never buy it again.  Same goes for books and their corresponding authors.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

The short answer is readers.

The long answer is reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaadeeeeeeeeeeers.


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## DanDillard (Mar 10, 2011)

I hope readers would filter them out. That's how it should be. I think the popularity of electronic format books had opened up the world to new stories, new styles, new ways of communicating. While I think things like texting and Twitter are ruining the language (140 characters at a time)... there are some good things about it, mostly quick, digital word of mouth. 
Publishing houses are like pop music, they sell what is in demand. The problem with the old model is that it takes writing that was marketable 18 months ago and hopes the demand is still there. 
I don't think paper, tangible books will ever go away, there's something endearing about them. 
As far as 'the noise'... it likely has an audience, and what better place for that noise to find an audience than on the world weird web.


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## Chris Culver (Jan 28, 2011)

I think I'll still have the same basic filters I've always had.  I can usually judge if I'll like a book by the blurb and a page or two. That's all a writer has to hook me. The critical difference in the future, in my mind, will be the number of books I can sample. 

I think the fear of quality books being lost admist the crap is somewhat unfounded. Readers are interconnected like never before. Chances are that if a book is worth reading, someone somewhere will eventually blog about it, review or mention it on twitter, goodreads, kindleboards, etc. Once that book is mentioned enough, it'll generate more and more buzz and reach a mass audience. I might be totally off base, but my experience is that in our interconnected age, the only books that go unread and undiscussed are that aren't worth reading and discussing.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Unfortunately, I am reading more and more how people will only review if they have a positive review to share, they state they will not leave anything negative. This makes it harder and harder to weed out the bad as it gets harder and harder to trust the reviews. I prefer Goodreads lately for reviews, not always quite as glowing, but more honest in my opinion.


I have a small review site. I ended up deleting the did-not-finish reviews on my site because people didn't like that I was an author giving bad reviews. The other issue is that, frankly, a lot of authors can't handle bad reviews. It started to bother me, getting accused of not liking self-published authors, of why I wouldn't lower my standards because their book is 99 cents, or not being supportive of small press (I'm published through a small press  most baffling).

Now, I only review books I can say nice things about. I have been considering doing 1 line reviews if something is really bad, ie "editing was poor and there was a typo on every page", "not realistic at all", "faulty science", "paranormal is not science fiction, stop confusing the two" (oops, sorry, that's the book I just read  ). But, then again, I'll still end up with the hate mail and, frankly, I'd rather save that email space for my family members.

/end rant about reviewing
/returns everyone to normal station


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## Marguerite (Jan 18, 2009)

The publishing houses will survive long term if they maintain their profit margins and not try to gouge the ereading population.  I think that if they subtract the cost of the printing and shipping and pass that savings along when they price it for us they will survive.  I boycott even my favorite authors when they try to sell the ebook for more than paper, or even hardback sometimes,...  see Follett's new book.  Why piss off the future of their industry?  I think that they are short sighted and will die out if this continues and I will find another way.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm sure people at Dan Brown's publisher are patting themselves on the backs. Just because some of you don't like him doesn't mean he's not a bestseller.

But yes, sometimes publishers get it "wrong". But they still act as SOME kind of filter. With ebooks, self publishing is so easy that it's flooding the Kindle market and I simply don't have time to figure out which ones are good and which are bad unless they are well reviewed which they often aren't. Because a lot of people are probably thinking the same thing I am - I'm not going to take a risk on a book that has NO backing whatsoever, not even from an indie publisher. 

That said, I don't think publishers are going anywhere. Record labels are still around.


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## Tom Schreck (Dec 12, 2010)

Readers, period.


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

I think one of the earliest comments in this thread got it right:



NogDog said:


> It will likely be filtered in pretty much the ways most of us at KB are already using: ratings/reviews at e-retailers like Amazon, bloggers who we find have similar tastes to ours, forums like KB, and online social media. In other words, thousands of readers will be helping to filter for other readers, as opposed to a few editors and marketers at a few publishing companies.


That last sentence is the most important.

I've been following two threads on the topic, "How do you respond to a $0.99 price?" Some of the commentators say they love it. At that price, there's no risk! Why _not_ buy early and often?

And the rest point out that the risk is _time spent_, which for many is far more expensive than the extra $2-$12 to pick up a book that's been fully vetted.

I think the solution will be for those voracious, risk-taking readers to act as early adopters and _become_ the new filters. And, as NogDog said, not a handful but thousands and thousands.

So if you're a reader who's scared of this unfiltered future, start keeping an eye out for KB commenters, bloggers, or Amazon reviewers who seem to spend a lot of time looking at high-risk books, _and_ who seem to like the kind of books you like. Choose your own gatekeeper!


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2011)

Tom Schreck said:


> Readers, period.


This is what I was going to say. Readers have always had to filter through the books available to find the books they will like. Nothing will change in that regard.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

GayleC said:


> The last refuge is that, if you don't like the book, Amazon will refund your money. But can you post a review to keep the rest of us from buying it?


I think one way Amazon will fill this gap is to streamline the process of returning a book. I've never done it but as I understand it, a phone call and some begging is required. I expect that it will eventually be as easy as buying the book was. They could even post the number of returns, I guess. That might be a pretty good filter.

There's a possibility for abuse of an easy return mechanism by scheming readers, but I'm sure Amazon is up to the task of minimizing this. Heck, I've heard anecdotes already about accounts being suspended for readers who have too many returns...


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## jason10mm (Apr 7, 2009)

I'm not too concerned about losing the publishers quality filter, as previously mentioned, just 'cause they publish it doesn't mean I will like it, but I do worry about the lack of unified and cohesive EDITING and attention to grammar. I read a lot of indie books that have fine ideas but they seem to be lacking that last couple coats of polish that I think an editor brings to the project. Things like fishing out repeating phrases, redundant events, changing up often used words, and keeping the book on track. At least this is what I imagine a good editor does, because these are the things I see pop up when an author self-publishes or becomes "too big for editing" (Tom Clancy, I'm looking at you!).

I suspect that genre authors will band together to cross-promote. Cons might become more important to self-promote (and you wouldn't need to lug around cases of books!) and meet other authors. Places like Baen and Tor are already mostly there. When I pick up a book from one of those publishers, I already have a pretty good idea what I'm getting. I'm leary of getting too much advice from an area where reviewers get chummy with authors though. It is nice to see an author weigh in at times, but if everyone is buddy buddy then objectivity can wane.


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## Mike Cooley (Mar 12, 2011)

jason10mm said:


> I'm not too concerned about losing the publishers quality filter, as previously mentioned, just 'cause they publish it doesn't mean I will like it, but I do worry about the lack of unified and cohesive EDITING and attention to grammar. I read a lot of indie books that have fine ideas but they seem to be lacking that last couple coats of polish that I think an editor brings to the project. Things like fishing out repeating phrases, redundant events, changing up often used words, and keeping the book on track. At least this is what I imagine a good editor does, because these are the things I see pop up when an author self-publishes or becomes "too big for editing" (Tom Clancy, I'm looking at you!).
> 
> I suspect that genre authors will band together to cross-promote. Cons might become more important to self-promote (and you wouldn't need to lug around cases of books!) and meet other authors. Places like Baen and Tor are already mostly there. When I pick up a book from one of those publishers, I already have a pretty good idea what I'm getting. I'm leary of getting too much advice from an area where reviewers get chummy with authors though. It is nice to see an author weigh in at times, but if everyone is buddy buddy then objectivity can wane.


Good point. I would point out that most of what you are saying above is what I consider a "copy editor's" job
(a regular editor is more concerned with accepting or rejecting a manuscript in the first place).

I did look into hiring a copy editor myself, but it was out of my price range so I had to make do with style guides and
honest readers.

Mike


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## tim290280 (Jan 11, 2011)

Bob Mayer said:


> Authors who work very hard and readers.


Seconded. Can we have a passing motion here?

Readers have become the most important part in the chain again. They decide what is good, where previously their influence was limited by access and supply. The authors who produce good quality work, and put it in front of the readers, will also be the other side of that coin now.


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

looks to me like the market is already doing a pretty darned good job of it. So much has happened so fast, but just think about what it was like in the Stone Age (like, 2009).

Scott


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## StephanieVoid (Mar 11, 2011)

Word of mouth has always been the best publicity, and I think that will continue to make the cream rise to the top.

I'm not worried about the death of publishing houses. The more I think about it, the more I realize they've been controlling what I'm allowed to read for my whole life. Doesn't that seem rather Big Brother-ish to you?


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## Starry Eve (Mar 10, 2011)

I try not to let reviews control my reading preferences, but the editorial reviews and such do grab my attention. I'm curious though as to who does Amazon's editorial reviews because even though the editorial recommendations catch my eyes first, I give reader reviews (along with a few other factors) higher priority towards what I'd likely buy.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I am getting a "publishers are evil" vibe here in this thread. I don't see it like that at all. Am I pissed at the big 6 for overpricing ebooks? Yep.
But they aren't the only game in town. I have a list of publishers that I buy from and search in the Amazon store. I am still getting well edited, well written stories I can afford. 
As a couple of people mentioned, there is a better organized editing process in place going through publishers. 

The other thing I haven't seen brought up is the messing with genres. I read this a lot with Indy's that now they can publish whatever they want, in whatever genre they want. Sorry, as  reader I want some guidelines there. When for example I pick up a romance, I want it to follow those guidelines, not some preconceived notion of a writer that feels like changing a genre or bending it to the point I don't find it anymore. 

And another thing, as a voracious reader myself, I don't want to be in a mass of beta readers to weed out the decent from the not decent. That is not my job as a reader. By decent I mean the things I mentioned above. Everything else is of course an opinion on an art. But there are basic things that have to be in place for me. 

I have a certain trust with publishers that I get what I want. Sorry, but that trust is not there with Indy's on their own, yet. 

So I don't get why it has to be one or the other. Indy and publisher houses can co-exist. I think it will be the smaller houses that are good at adapting. If I was the big 6, I would split off the ebook market into another imprint entirely with people that know that market. 

But again, I will not be the street sweeper for the mass of Bohemian Hippy Indy's out there  .

By the time I read a sample of a book, I have already been through my steps, first one having been prepared by the publisher with editing. Then comes the blogs and review sites. 
My time is valuable, no matter how many books I read. 

For me its much better to experiment with new stuff when I see a publisher on it. One I know that is. At least one hurdle had been cleared by then. I figure out the rest on my own as always. 

I just don't like all this venom spewed at publishers. No publisher has ever told me what to read or not to read. And I don't look much at the New York Time seller list.


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## Mike Cooley (Mar 12, 2011)

Atunah said:


> ...But again, I will not be the street sweeper for the mass of Bohemian Hippy Indy's out there .


Oh come on, I cut my hair and everything!       

I have nothing against big publishers. But I do think they need to adapt to the times and start pricing
eBooks in line with the market demand. (Older books you can already get at half-price books should be 
cheaper than new paperbacks as an eBook for instance)

My problem with big publishers isn't that they will reject my work. It's the time to market. If I went through one of them
I'd be done with another two books before the first one even came out....

Mike


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

From the look of some of the books coming from the publishers, there isn't much filtering going on now.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I am getting a "publishers are evil" vibe here in this thread. I don't see it like that at all. Am I p*ssed at the big 6 for overpricing ebooks? Yep.
> But they aren't the only game in town. I have a list of publishers that I buy from and search in the Amazon store. I am still getting well edited, well written stories I can afford.
> As a couple of people mentioned, there is a better organized editing process in place going through publishers.
> 
> ...


I don't like to do mass quotes, but I have to in this case. I agree with everything you've said. I'm a reader first. I have worked as a slush reader for a small Canadian publisher, I have been an intern for Bards and Sages, and I've been a beta reader. I do *not* want to be doing any of those jobs or hat-wearing when I read a book for enjoyment. I want to, well, read and be entertained.


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm surprised (and pleased) to see how many readers in this thread genuinely seem interested in buying from particular publishers (including indie publishers). 

I'm in the process of building one of those now, and while it's my intention to make sure we've got an industry-standard editing process and a marketing department making sure books get sorted into proper categories, I didn't really expect readers to pay a lot of attention to the little label at the bottom of the spine.

I've been talking up the micro-reviewers because that's the way I thought the audience would naturally lean, but if readers are really willing to stick with favorite publishing houses, I can see a great future there.


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## DanG (Mar 10, 2011)

It is my opinion that we'll all soon (or have already) find our little ways of sorting through the noise to find authors and books we like. Just because there is far more stuff available thanks to the ebook format doesn't mean we won't find books we love. It may mean I find my new favorite author years later than I otherwise might have, but it also means I may find my new favorite author who otherwise would NEVER have been published.

I love ebooks. I love what it has done for me as a reader and an aspiring writer. Now to find my gatekeeper...


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## glotta (Feb 22, 2011)

Small publishers should play more of a role in filtering out the books.  For example ZOVA books has a good group of authors it represents.  Reviews will also play a larger role in what books sell, and lastly the sample chapters decide if I buy the book.
Gwen


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## Ciareader (Feb 3, 2011)

Readers.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Aaron Pogue said:


> I'm surprised (and pleased) to see how many readers in this thread genuinely seem interested in buying from particular publishers (including indie publishers).
> 
> I'm in the process of building one of those now, and while it's my intention to make sure we've got an industry-standard editing process and a marketing department making sure books get sorted into proper categories, I didn't really expect readers to pay a lot of attention to the little label at the bottom of the spine.
> 
> I've been talking up the micro-reviewers because that's the way I thought the audience would naturally lean, but if readers are really willing to stick with favorite publishing houses, I can see a great future there.


In my opinion its different with ebooks then paper books. I have learned a lot over the 2.5 years I have had my Kindle. If I see publishers that supply the kind of ebooks I like, and they offer them for a price I personally find reasonable for the format they are, then I will keep looking in that direction.

When I first got my Kindle, there were many, many low cost books, from all kinds of publishers. That was of course before the Agency model. I don't see those low costs books anymore from those and so I have shifted most of my purchasing. I found by looking at the Books in the lists I was searching at and started writing down the publishers names on a list.

Those books are almost always lower then the paper version, which for me personally it should be, and they are consistent. I even signed up for newsletters from those publishers with target specific mails on new releases and such.

Even smaller indy publishers, like you are planning to do can create a brand loyalty and a trust with readers. If they trust the quality of books published under your publishing house they come back for other offerings.

I am lucky to have found publishers that have many of the kind of books I love reading. 
I have noticed those specific ones are really taking advantage right now with offering free or low priced books here and there. I just read a book by an author, finished and today the 2nd book happens to be free . Lucky me. That publisher, Kensington, has really popped up on my radar with ebooks. They are doing it right and swooping in where the big 6 are screwing up.

I don't recall paying that much attention to publishers in the past with paperbooks, but I never paid full price either and was always going for the deals. Now the big 6 took that away from ebooks. And they did that to ebooks only. Still baffles my mind.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

Atunah, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I haven't started learning about and keeping an eye on small publishers as a filter for finding good books, but that's a great idea. I agree that I'm not willing to invest a substantial increase in my time to researching books that are of acceptable reading quality. For those who say "readers" or "the market" will be the new filter, the problem is not only that the cost of putting a book "on the market" is now very low, but there is no real reason for even very bad books to exit the electronic bookstores and stop "cluttering the shelves."

So I look forward to the evolution of these new gatekeepers, in whatever form they take (as long as it's not the agency model!).


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## DanG (Mar 10, 2011)

GBear said:


> For those who say "readers" or "the market" will be the new filter, the problem is not only that the cost of putting a book "on the market" is now very low, but there is no real reason for even very bad books to exit the electronic bookstores and stop "cluttering the shelves."
> 
> So I look forward to the evolution of these new gatekeepers, in whatever form they take (as long as it's not the agency model!).


Bingo to the "cluttering the shelves" and bingo to the new gatekeepers. I'm definately interested to find a good reviewer that reads enough in my favorite genres to be a reliable recommender for me.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

The way I have always filtered out which books to read. 

Word of mouth and reviews


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Unfortunately, I am reading more and more how people will only review if they have a positive review to share, they state they will not leave anything negative. This makes it harder and harder to weed out the bad as it gets harder and harder to trust the reviews. I prefer Goodreads lately for reviews, not always quite as glowing, but more honest in my opinion.


speaking of Goodreads, I just put my book there and I was wondering what else do I have to do in Good reads to promote it? Putting it there was fairly easy and notices went out to my friends, but how else do we promote there?

Talking about reviews they do help but ultimately the reader has the last word. It's so simple to get a sample on kindle and not to buy the book if we don't like it, so why hurt an author and give negative reviews?


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## mima (Jul 16, 2009)

on any given day a reader types a search or clicks on "others also bought" and happens to feel like reading your excerpt. that search looks different day to day. so i'm of the jaded opinion that mostly readers find a book they're satisfied with through sheer luck. ads and reviews don't really cut through the deluge. it's reader X happening upon their exact match that matters. 

the issue then becomes: when you find that rare reader, you have to have written such an incredible book they will look you up and/or remember you. every. single. time. talent is what will last, but all the talent in the world won't matter if the book never lands in front of the right readership.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

I've always sampled books before I buy them--I can usually tell in a few paragraphs whether a particular style is going to appeal to me enough to keep reading.  Whether a book is published by a big house, a small press, or the author really has no bearing on its quality as far as I'm concerned--I've read some wonderful self-published books and started some terrible books called "the latest thing" by the publishing industry.  All the publishing industry stamp of approval means that some editor somewhere thought that a particular book could be a commercial success--that has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with someone else's opinion, which may not reflect my opinion at all.  So I've always sampled first and will continue to do so.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

Amanda Brice said:


> The way I have always filtered out which books to read.
> 
> Word of mouth and reviews


Same for me. I've never really spent much time reading official announcements or professional reviews. I just like to browse and search and gobble up anything that grabs my attention.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

NogDog said:


> It will likely be filtered in pretty much the ways most of us at KB are already using: ratings/reviews at e-retailers like Amazon, bloggers who we find have similar tastes to ours, forums like KB, and online social media. In other words, thousands of readers will be helping to filter for other readers, as opposed to a few editors and marketers at a few publishing companies.


This makes sense. I guess I wonder who thinks publishers are not putting out cr*p right now?


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## EchelonPress (Sep 30, 2010)

scarlet said:


> The publishers don't publish "good" books, they publish books that they think are marketable.


This may be true for some publishers, but the statement is far too general. I for one, as a publisher, have been known to kick marketing potential to the curb, and go with a great story.

_--- edited... no self-promotion outside the Book Bazaar forum. please read our Forum Decorum thread._


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

EchelonPress said:


> This may be true for some publishers, but the statement is far too general. I for one, as a publisher, have been known to kick marketing potential to the curb, and go with a great story. If you go up a few notes you will see one from Gayle Carline. I LOVED her story. It was clever, it was quirky, it was fun, but I think she will agree with me when I say that it is not the easiest book to market because it doesn't fall into any of the marketing holes.
> 
> It is an awesome book and I don't regret my decision one bit.


I believe readers are perfectly capable of deciding what to buy, what interests them, etc. They will have no problem separating the books they want to read from the noise because they can read the samples, for one thing, before they buy.

I know that I've had to give up entire genres that I liked because publishers destroyed them by only buying certain things within that genre. I'll give you an example. I used to love historical romances, but recently, publishers will only produce books that are mostly a series of bedroom scenes loosely chained together with a weak plot. I'm not interested in those, but that's all publishers are producing.

So that genre is dead for me, now. I don't even go into the romance aisle anymore at the bookstore.

That's just one example.

Thank heavens, now, for indie authors and small press who may "take a chance" on a book that is not what the traditional publishers are looking for at the moment. While there may be fewer readers, there *are* readers for them, even if we're on the fringe.

I will admit it's hard to find the books because there are so many. That's very true and I know there are gems I'm missing because I don't have the time to wade through 65,000 pages to find the books in the middle that I might like. But I do occassionally find them and I'm grateful when I do.

The one thing I wish we could have was some sort of rating system so that when I do a search within a genre, I can exclude books with heavy sexual content (as an example). That might reduce the pages down to maybe 3,000 out of 65,000 . But I know Amazon gets criticized up and down as it is and that would probably be just one more thing that they'd get criticized for. Sometimes, you can't win for trying.


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## Mainak Dhar (Mar 1, 2011)

It'll be a wonderful thing called a free market- and the consumer (reader) will vote with their wallet and time- without big brothers/sisters in publishing houses vetting what people can read or not. But for that to happen, much more of the market would need to shift to ebooks.


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## simonlogan (Mar 16, 2011)

For the time being I think that store reviews, be it on Amazon, Smashwords or wherever, are going to be a big influence as they are right there when you are browsing the books you are interested in.  There are so many titles being released via KDP etc but a far lower percentage are getting any reviews whatsoever so you are left with your gut instinct unless you have recc's from other sources - so to me, at least for just now, getting as many good reviews on the actual site which sell the products is the best thing.

I also think that social media is going to play a larger and larger role, be it Twitter, Facebook or blogs and this is a reflection of the shift of control from major publishing houses to authors - instead of the NY Times reviews it's all going to be about who is in your social network.  Which books will succeed and grow depends upon the requirements and interests of those discussing it so I can see lots of niche markets expanding.  Publishers NEED to sell lots and lots of copies to cover their costs and make a profit but with direct publishing you don't need to have that so stranger, odd little books can get more of a foothold. 

Ultimately it's readers who decide but that's how it's always been.  Publishers might choose to publish Author A but if readers hate it then all the marketing in the world won't save it and Author A will struggle to be published again.  Readers (or buyers, however you choose to see them) always have, and always will have, the control.


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## Jamie Case (Feb 15, 2011)

Not it.


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## Starry Eve (Mar 10, 2011)

Other than selecting genre and typing in a few keywords, aren't there ways to program in more advanced filters for readers to narrow down the thousands of books and ebooks that might interest them? Good word of mouth seems to be the best marketing tool, but luck still plays a large part for that particular book to get to those particular readers who are likely to spread that good word around.


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## blurbshop.com (Mar 16, 2011)

I'd have to agree with the consensus here and say that readers will be the filter. However, now that book pricing and distribution is undergoing a disruption I'm more inclined to take a chance on someone I've never heard of before. If i don't like the material, I don't buy anymore titles from that author. I'll consider a review if the person writing it up provides a cogent opinion that resonates with me. Also, my genre preferences will shade my filter as well. 
What I think you cannot rely on is sales volume. Many people new to the ebook phenomenon will buy a low priced title (sight unseen) just out of curiosity (could it really be as good as a traditionally published book?). This will artificially drive up the sales volume of authors already at the top who offer the .99/2.99/4.99 price point and that's just the up and pull of marketing.

My .02

_--- edited... no self-promotion outside the Book Bazaar forum. please read our Forum Decorum thread._


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

Starry Eve said:


> Other than selecting genre and typing in a few keywords, aren't there ways to program in more advanced filters for readers to narrow down the thousands of books and ebooks that might interest them?


They're working on it. And by "they," I mean...well, mostly grad students in Computer Science programs.

But there's a strong demand for something like Pandora's Music Genome Project, for books. It's challenging, because there's so much cultural nuance to written language (and it changes so fast), but we should see something in the next ten years.

It'll be fascinating to see what happens next -- what a program like that could do to writing. We're talking here about indie publishing taking the deciding power away from publishers' marketing departments, but when there's a Pandora's Books...it could plug right into Word (just like the spelling and grammar checkers), and tell you, "If you published this book as-is, we would recommend it to 2,000 readers. If you added more explicit sexual content (just to borrow an example from Amy above), we would recommend it to 200,000 readers."


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## Jamie Case (Feb 15, 2011)

Aaron Pogue said:


> They're working on it. And by "they," I mean...well, mostly grad students in Computer Science programs.
> 
> But there's a strong demand for something like Pandora's Music Genome Project, for books. It's challenging, because there's so much cultural nuance to written language (and it changes so fast), but we should see something in the next ten years.
> 
> It'll be fascinating to see what happens next -- what a program like that could do to writing. We're talking here about indie publishing taking the deciding power away from publishers' marketing departments, but when there's a Pandora's Books...it could plug right into Word (just like the spelling and grammar checkers), and tell you, "If you published this book as-is, we would recommend it to 2,000 readers. If you added more explicit sexual content (just to borrow an example from Amy above), we would recommend it to 200,000 readers."


A Pandora for books could be a reality today. Nuance of the language has little to do with it.

Pandora uses people to categorize their music (coolest job ever btw) and then when a user likes a song the database spits out other songs that their musicologists have tagged as having similar attributes. Using that model, Google could create a Pandora for books in a few months, but just trying to get all the books they could into their database landed them in hot water time and time again over the past few years. Licensing is very different in music than it is in literature.


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## patrickt (Aug 28, 2010)

It will be readers. Pat Conroy started self-published, what snobs call vanity press, but he flogged his first book, got copies in bookstores, and readers told other readers. The rest is--be sure and write this down--history.

I can imagine rather specific reader groups on the internet giving opinions. I envision groups that are quite specific. For example, I don't want to read books written by people who say they're lawyers. If they want to lie and say they play piano in a whore house I'll read their book, and might even enjoy it, but not is they tell me they're a lawyer.

I tend to avoid books that make the NYT Best Seller list. But, a book who Barney in Idaho says is great would get read if Barney's track record with me was worthwhile.


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## DanG (Mar 10, 2011)

Jamie Case said:


> A Pandora for books could be a reality today. Nuance of the language has little to do with it.
> 
> Pandora uses people to categorize their music (coolest job ever btw) and then when a user likes a song the database spits out other songs that their musicologists have tagged as having similar attributes. Using that model, Google could create a Pandora for books in a few months, but just trying to get all the books they could into their database landed them in hot water time and time again over the past few years. Licensing is very different in music than it is in literature.


I don't know enough about how libraries get their books - but isn't that essentially what a "Book Pandora" would be, an online digital library for eReaders? Why not have this?


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## Adria Townsend (Feb 24, 2011)

After hearing Simon and Schuster just signed Jesse James (Sandra Bullock's ex) to write From Choppers to Cheatin', I'm not sure if the filter is in place at tradpubs...  That being said, I don't think it's good if the tradpubs go down.  I used to work for the Chief Financial Officer of a publishing holdings company.  My former boss is a great source of info.  He says at a traditional publisher, 20% of the authors bring in the big bucks with bestsellers and end up supporting the other 80.  I guess that's why they need Jesse James...  

Blogs like Good Reads don't just take any books.  They consider reviews and make sure they aren't planted.  

These are great questions!
JS


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I think we are mixing up 2 different issues a bit, at least I think we are. When I talk about filtering initially, I talk about someone actually taking a look at a book other than the author themself. His mamma doesn't count either  . I am talking editing, grammar, genre guidelines and all that.
If a book is called good or bad after that is pretty much an opinion and that is where reviews come in. 

A publisher at least in the majority will look at a book and not just blindly publish it. They make sure it follows genre guidelines, it doesn't have errors and all that. And editing. Cover also. 
And I am sorry, as a reader it is NOT my job to weed out all of that. I don't get paid to be a beta reader. 

I think its an easy and lazy way out to put this all on the readers. Oh, the readers will do this job instead of the publishers. Um, no, I don't think so. Not this one. 

So when I say the publishers at least are vetting some of the "bad", that is what I as a reader am talking about. 

I am reading a lot in this thread from writers about bad bad publishers and that the readers will do the sorting. Hey, I am not Aschenputtel sorting the good from the bad lentils here. I also see readers posting here, some saying similar things I am, but nobody seems to be listening, at least not the writers. 

So for me it would be a sad sad day if there were no publishers. I don't think this a realistic scenario though. 

For now I support the publishers I have on my list. I have 8 so far and most books I have bought from there. These are all not part of the agency model, they all so far have given me consistent reads with great stories, written great, affordable and already combed over. They are embracing the ebook format and are actively seeking readers with low prices, free offers and really decent websites. I sign up for all of their newsletters as an appreciation and I let them know that I, as a reader have put my money where my mouth is. 
As long as they give me consistent quality product, I will buy. 

It is difficult to put that kind of trust in books that are not going through a publisher. It just is. For me.


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

Atunah said:


> When I talk about filtering... I am talking editing, grammar, genre guidelines and all that.
> 
> ...
> 
> I am reading a lot in this thread from writers about bad bad publishers and that the readers will do the sorting.


That clears up a lot, Atunah. And I don't think anyone really disagrees with you. The serious authors here (very much including the indie- and self-published ones) are very vocal advocates of professional editing.

I'm running a publishing house that _almost_ represents two writers (heh), and yet I've got a professional editor on staff because I understand the importance of that. And I've heard the same sort of emphasis from some of the most outspoken and best-respected writers in the self-publishing community.

I think the confusion came out of the fact that the _other_ question -- not who reviews rough drafts for errors, but who decides which books get to which readers -- is one that's at the very front of every writer's mind, all the time. It's not that we disagree with the need for editors, it's just that we jump straight to the other interpretation of the question because that's where we live most of the time.

As to your actual question...I've thought about it some, and I can't come up with any really clever ideas for vetting some documents with a "This has been reviewed by someone who actually knows what they're doing" seal of approval. I can't imagine any one entity having the time, interest, and resources to do such a thing, and it there are many, then some of them are going to start _selling_ their stamps, and undermine the whole process.

So we're back to finding reliable sources of books. And it _can_ be publishing houses (just like my itty bitty Oklahoma City publishing house) even if the big ones do go under. And it can be "hyper-local" recommendations from respected sources in your own social circle. I think that last bit is what people mean when they say, "It's on the readers." It's not on _every_ reader, but there will be some who test the waters for everyone else.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I agree with you on the writers here. I think most of the ones hanging out here on a regular basis are serious about their craft and about the quality of the product they want to put out. 

Problem are the thousands and thousands of others that are going to flood the marked in the next few years that don't have that kind of ethics. And they are out there, and those books are out there. 

So for the future, that does concern me a bit. Maybe one of the solutions is like what you are doing, small houses, or clusters of authors within the same genres that share the cost of editor, cover, and those things. I guess that would make them a small house  . 

Most of my comments are relating to ebooks. Since it is so easy to publish there now, it is a concern. And aside from the editing I also am concerned about a continued uniform genre distinction. I don't want everything muddled up. That is what regular fiction is for. When it comes to genres, there are guidelines and that is another thing publisher do deal with. Kind of like a librarian system for indy ebook publishing. I don't know. I just don't want to lose what I like to read in the future due to "experimentation". 

I am glad I was making more sense there. I don't do so well writing  . Which is why when I read, I have to trust someone to have done the work already. I don't want to learn bad habits from reading.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

In my experience small presses are more reliable than big publishers anyway. Big publishers put out some godawful crap and I blame a lot of them for contributing to the dumbing-down of America. Too many people have gotten caught up in reading badly written drivel because it's "popular". I think the new trend toward authors posting the first couple chapters of their books to read before you buy is great -- I would have saved thousands of dollars if that had been the way things were years ago.


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## AnneKAlbert (Dec 7, 2010)

I relied on publishing houses to filter what I read until I realized far too many books failed to live up to the hype. 

Now, I use my own system. If an author holds my attention to the end of the first page, I'll keep reading. Simple. And far less costly!


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## Jamie Case (Feb 15, 2011)

DanG said:


> I don't know enough about how libraries get their books - but isn't that essentially what a "Book Pandora" would be, an online digital library for eReaders? Why not have this?


Very few libraries have enough books in every genre to have a rich enough database. Secondly someone would still have to read and tag the books:strong female protagonists, settings in Third World Countries, near-future dystopians where animals dominate humans, etc. Librarians have enough to do and LOC categories aren't rich enough to handle nuanced filtering.

Publishers could probably do it. Every book published by an imprint is read by someone at the house. However, this kind of thing would inevitably lead to them promoting their competitor's books which is something I doubt they want to dedicate resources to. They could also let Google do it, but they've already demonstrated their distrust of Google's motives.

People don't realize just how difficult it is to do what Pandora does. Which is why they are constantly on the brink of bankruptcy. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/magazine/18Pandora-t.html


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## Basilius (Feb 20, 2010)

J. S. Laurenz said:


> After hearing Simon and Schuster just signed Jesse James (Sandra Bullock's ex) to write From Choppers to Cheatin', I'm not sure if the filter is in place at tradpubs... That being said, I don't think it's good if the tradpubs go down. I used to work for the Chief Financial Officer of a publishing holdings company. My former boss is a great source of info. He says at a traditional publisher, 20% of the authors bring in the big bucks with bestsellers and end up supporting the other 80. I guess that's why they need Jesse James...
> 
> JS


And Snooki. The Situation. Charlie Sheen. JWow. There's no literary filter there at all. It's capitalizing on 15 minutes to try to make a buck. Of course, they bid against each other on advances, and end up canceling out any profit they may have made.

I'm slowly working on a blog post related to the 2nd half of your quote: You'll notice some of the newer bestseller lists are starting to show a lot of sub-$3 (down to 99c) books. They're displacing books from traditional publishers. Right about when this started happening, you started seeing angst about "the race to $1" and how publishers can't possibly survive at that price.

Of course, that's because their lifeblood is the "bestseller" and they're emotionally tied to the number of units they sell, not the total revenue. So, if they start getting aced off those lists by cheap indie books, they'll howl.


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## brianrowe (Mar 10, 2011)

Good books will always be filtered out from the bad ones by word of mouth. It's like with movies nowadays. Most of the stinkers are playing at every corner in your town, but the really good ones you find out through word of mouth.


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## Mike Cooley (Mar 12, 2011)

I see a LOT of parallels between book publishing and music publishing (I have a foot in both industries).

Music publishing is a few years ahead on this curve (IMHO), although there are some big differences. 
(e.g. readers don't yet think that books should be free). 

But some of the same things have happened: prices have been pushed down, small publishers are rebounding, big publishers are slow to adjust,
quality of the content varies widely and much more variety is available.

And in both fields--as a consumer--it is hard to cut through the noise and find exactly what you want.


I would expect that small publishers who can adjust quickly to the changing paradigm will do well.
As will larger publishers IF THEY CHANGE. 

But publishers that stay in denial will collapse under their own weight.


Mike


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

Mike Cooley said:


> And in both fields--as a consumer--it is hard to cut through the noise and find exactly what you want.


I don't know about that. With sampling today, it seems pretty easy to find the signal.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Do you think dreck doesn't come from publishing houses too? It does. Lots of it. People filter that out with recommendations, reviews and trying a sample of a few pages. The same would be true if publishing houses died.

I don't think they will. They will learn to co-exist with indie authors.


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## miss_fletcher (Oct 25, 2010)

Books are a business, right? I honestly thought Pub Houses published books that would make them money, were easily marketable, and most likely to be profitable depending on current consumer buying habits/trends ... agents are not really working for the reader by filtering out "the bad" and leaving the good. I never read Indie until I became one 5 months ago, and I can say I have only read one Indie book I didn't enjoy. That was because it wasn't my usual kind of read. But I have bought a number of trad books since then that made me want to bang my head against a wall because they were so commercial and interchangeable (and they had loads of typos which I don't expect from a trad book ... those authors publishers are letting them down big time).

Besides the above _Readers_ will act as the filter. I can tell an Indie who had researched how best to present themselves in the Kindle store from one who has just thrown something up in the spur of the moment. The book page will be properly filled in, engaging blurb, decent cover, genuine mixed reviews, author bio shows up, etc.

The filter will be simple; Readers re-educate their buying habits. (And a "bad book" is there such a thing? A bad book to me might be a great book to you!)


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## Mike Cooley (Mar 12, 2011)

Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> I don't know about that. With sampling today, it seems pretty easy to find the signal.


Ah yes. Sampling does make it easier. That's one of my favorite things about the Kindle!
I need a t-shirt that says "Sample Me" with my ASIN # on it...   

Mike


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Mike Cooley said:


> Ah yes. Sampling does make it easier. That's one of my favorite things about the Kindle!
> I need a t-shirt that says "Sample Me" with my ASIN # on it...
> Mike


Instead of the ASIN you could get one of those new weird square things that's like a smart barcode. Then anyone with a smartphone could instantly connect.


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

Mike Cooley said:


> I need a t-shirt that says "Sample Me" with my ASIN # on it...
> Mike





BTackitt said:


> Instead of the ASIN you could get one of those new weird square things that's like a smart barcode. Then anyone with a smartphone could instantly connect.


That's brilliant.


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## BarbraAnnino (Jan 27, 2011)

Groups of organized readers has worked great for me. There are many yahoo book clubs in every genre with people who discuss in great length books they like, don't like and why. I've relied on them for years and when I stray- when I get sucked into a pretty cover, a well written blurb and plop down $30 bucks for a book I don't enjoy- I always regret it.

I think it's important to remember that "good" books are not necessarily what big houses publish. Big houses publish books the can _market _ and books they think they can make money on.


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## Basilius (Feb 20, 2010)

Miss_Fletcher said:


> Books are a business, right? I honestly thought Pub Houses published books that would make them money, were easily marketable, and most likely to be profitable depending on current consumer buying habits/trends ... agents are not really working for the reader by filtering out "the bad" and leaving the good. I never read Indie until I became one 5 months ago, and I can say I have only read one Indie book I didn't enjoy. That was because it wasn't my usual kind of read. But I have bought a number of trad books since then that made me want to bang my head against a wall because they were so commercial and interchangeable (and they had loads of typos which I don't expect from a trad book ... those authors publishers are letting them down big time).


That's what the publishers do, but that's not what the publishers SAY they do. They take this high road claiming they're the gatekeepers of culture, protecting us from bad books.

And that's what's so galling. They drop good mid-list authors because they don't sell enough, then churn out fanboi crack. At least now there's outlets for those dropped authors to get published, even if they do have to go their own way.

It may have been in this thread, but I recently read a quip that I feel is very accurate: "Publishers used to be the primary way of getting books from authors to readers. Now, they only seem to get in the way."


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## Rose Gordon (Mar 18, 2011)

DanG said:


> In the world of Kindle and so many choices, what to YOU do to find the books worth your dollars?
> 
> With publishers struggling to stay in business, I wonder what the new filter of "good" will be...


You will.

Thankfully, places like Amazon and B&N offer free samples before you have to purchase the book. Now that everybody and their brother can publish a book, it seems imperative to read the samples, particularly for the unknowns out there. What it will come down to, is if you value that sample enough to purchase the rest of the book at the price being asked.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Readers are going to use sales ranking, reader reviews, and price to filter books. There are also review sites springing up that cater to indie books, like Red Adept Reviews. Some of these will become popular and will help filter books.


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## Miriam Minger (Nov 27, 2010)

Word of mouth.  The cream always rises to the top.  Well, usually.  

Miriam Minger


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Miriam Minger said:


> Word of mouth. The cream always rises to the top. Well, usually.
> 
> Miriam Minger


Which is no different to how it was really. Word of mouth has always been my filter.


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## Russell Brooks (Dec 23, 2010)

Readers will react the same way to eBooks as they did in the old days with hardcovers and paperbacks that had Big-6 backing, that's by sample-reading the first few pages or reading the back-cover blurb. Only this time they'll have more choice.


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