# Amazon just cancelled my 1800 pre-orders. And now I want to die.



## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Most of you might not know this, but less than two weeks ago the pre-order for my multi-author boxed set, Magic and Mayhem, went live on Amazon, Nook, iBooks and Kobo. We got nearly 800 sales on the first day, hit #108 in the rankings, and were off to an AMAZING start.

About a week ago, though, I got the following email from Amazon's "Quality Control" department telling me that I needed to change my book's subtitle:



> Hello,
> 
> During a quality assurance review of your KDP catalog, we found that the following book(s) you have published contains extra descriptive content in the title.
> 
> ...


The subtitle reads "21 Fantasy Novels by NY Times, USA Today and Internationally Bestselling Authors", and is the EXACT SAME SUBTITLE listed on the boxed set's book cover. So I emailed KDP back telling them this and insisting that they review their stance, which they did. About six days ago, in fact, they sent me the following email:



> Hello,
> 
> Thanks for writing back to us. I hope you're doing well.
> 
> ...


Sounds good, right? So I went along my merry way, thinking that all was well and Amazon's customer service system really DOES work.

And then this morning, I woke up to the following email:



> Hello,
> 
> During a quality assurance review of your catalog we found that the title, and description of the following book you have published are misleading to our customers.
> 
> ...


I immediately contacted KDP by phone, and they told me that there was nothing they could do but that they would forward my complaint to the title review department, which apparently you can't speak to via phone. They also told me that I should just change my title anyway because KDP doesn't like it when you mention bestseller statuses (nevermind the fact that there are tons of boxed sets ALREADY DOING THIS on Amazon). So, after getting off the phone, I went ahead and changed the subtitle, then resubmitted.

Not long after this, I got an email FROM THE PERSON MY COMPLAINT WAS FORWARDED TO saying that my title was available for sale but that it would take 24 hours to show on my dashboard. I clicked on the link in the email and nope, it wasn't for sale. I emailed the person back, didn't get an answer. About five hours later, I got the automated email from KDP telling me my title was live and NOPE, it wasn't. It's live on my dashboard, but it's not on Amazon.

So, I called KDP again. And they told me that even though it looks fine on their end, the title review team is suppressing it and so it's not showing up on Amazon. Even though I fixed the title. And of course, there's no way to talk to the title review team directly. So they forwarded a complaint to them. AGAIN. And said I'd get an answer within 48 hours.

And then, about ten minutes later, I got an email saying that my pre-order had been cancelled. CANCELLED. And I've been getting messages and emails from readers saying that THEIR PREORDERS were cancelled too.

I'm usually pretty optimistic and don't go down easily in the face of adversity, but this is hitting me really hard. It seems like every time I try to do something to fix this issue, it only gets worse. I'd bet my next royalty check that the next email I get from Amazon is to tell me that they're revoking my pre-order priviledges. I've emailed [email protected], I've called various customer service people and left messages, and all I can do is wait right now.

But I'm really, really, REALLY p*ssed. And I have no idea what to do.

/endrant


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

Very frustrating, Jasmine. I'm hoping Amazon will self-correct. Perhaps they just need a few days for their machine to click into the right gear.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

jackconnerbooks said:


> Very frustrating, Jasmine. I'm hoping Amazon will self-correct. Perhaps they just need a few days for their machine to click into the right gear.


I don't think there's any way for Amazon to "Self-correct" the fact that they've cancelled nearly 2000 pre-orders. That's definitely going to require a real-live person to fix, if it can even be done.


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## Sandy Raven (Jan 11, 2014)

Holy crap. Sometimes I wonder if the left hand knows what the right hand is doing.


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

Yes, some sort of administrator will have to fix this.


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## UnicornEmily (Jul 2, 2011)

Awww, Jasmine!  (Hugs.)  I'm so sorry.  What a disastrously horrible thing.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Did you have a 3rd version of the cover up? The only archived images I see are a flat and a 3D, both of which only have "A Collection of 21 Fantasy Novels" on the cover. I don't see the bestselling verbiage on them at all (which they usually don't allow, even if it's on the cover).


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

PhoenixS said:


> Did you have a 3rd version of the cover up? The only archived images I see are a flat and a 3D, both of which only have "A Collection of 21 Fantasy Novels" on the cover. I don't see the bestselling verbiage on them at all (which they usually don't allow, even if it's on the cover).


I have several versions of the cover, but the one that was up on Amazon DID have the bestselling verbiage on it.


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

That is completely terrible.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

what a bite in the butt


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## BookwormT (Dec 4, 2015)

Yikes! What a mess. Sorry that happened to you.


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

Their responses to you are confusing because at first it seemed like they agreed with you and it was okay. But it's been common knowledge for a long time that they really don't like these types of subtitles. They're up there with having "Free" as a keyword and can get your book pulled at any time. I know that when they objected to a couple of keywords I was using last year, including "free" and "kindle unlimited" I just changed them. Some people can get lucky and get away with stuff that violates their guidelines, but to me it's not worth trying to get into a debate with them--it's their store and they're the arbitrators of what's okay. 

I hope you get your preorder restored. It sucks to lose that many sales. Either way, you should get more familiar with their requirements and tastes so it doesn't happen again. It would hurt worse for a book further down your series with 20K preorders!


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Sorry you got caught in Amazon's incompetency web, Jazzy.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Jennifer Lewis said:


> Their responses to you are confusing because at first it seemed like they agreed with you and it was okay. But it's been common knowledge for a long time that they really don't like these types of subtitles. They're up there with having "Free" as a keyword and can get your book pulled at any time. I know that when they objected to a couple of keywords I was using last year, including "free" and "kindle unlimited" I just changed them. Some people can get lucky and get away with stuff that violates their guidelines, but to me it's not worth trying to get into a debate with them--it's their store and they're the arbitrators of what's okay.
> 
> I hope you get your preorder restored. It sucks to lose that many sales. Either way, you should get more familiar with their requirements and tastes so it doesn't happen again. It would hurt worse for a book further down your series with 20K preorders!


Well if they'd originally just responded to my inquiry and told me "sorry, no, we still don't want you to do this" I would have changed the subtitle because I didn't want this exact thing to happen! I guess now I no better than to try and reason with the 'Zon.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

This seems like the usual ham-fisted approach to fight title-stuffing. If you look at the original letter you got, they did state their beef with it:



> ET: NY Times, USA Today and Internationally Bestselling Authors, bestselling


(anyone known what ET stands for besides a cute alien?)

They don't seem to want those words in titles.

Also, those Amazon help desk people are good at carrying out missives: "make a series page for these books", "make this book free in all countries". That sort of thing. They don't appear to have the collective intelligence to react favourably to an objection or argument. All I guess is that the rep 1. didn't know the rules and probably should have told you that that title needed to be changed, 2. agreed with you where they shouldn't have, 3. put the title back into the pool where it then got flagged by the auto-bots a second time.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

You might actually be lucky here. It looks like you've got Kindle Unlimited titles in that box set even though you've got the set available in other stores. That's a violation they will crack down on hard if you're caught. So, bullet dodged!


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> This seems like the usual ham-fisted approach to fight title-stuffing. If you look at the original letter you got, they did state their beef with it:
> 
> (anyone known what ET stands for besides a cute alien?)
> 
> ...


Yeah. Sorry this happened to the OP, but if they finally get serious about keyword stuffing in subtitles and titles I will throw a freaking party. It sucks for the OP, definitely, but if they could clean up that stuff I would be ridiculously happy.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

MonkishScribe said:


> You might actually be lucky here. It looks like you've got Kindle Unlimited titles in that box set even though you've got the set available in other stores. That's a violation they will crack down on hard if you're caught. So, bullet dodged!


Sigh. I may look like an idiot sometimes, but I'm not that dumb. All of the titles in this set are going to be wide during the week that the set is released, and then the set as well as the individual titles will all be in KU together. I've picked KU titles for this set on purpose.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> This seems like the usual ham-fisted approach to fight title-stuffing. If you look at the original letter you got, they did state their beef with it:
> 
> (anyone known what ET stands for besides a cute alien?)
> 
> ...


Yeah, I read the whole email and I knew why they had beef with it. But I queried it anyway and they seemed to be fine with my explanation. That'll teach me!


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

I can see why they'd complain about it. You would think they'd do the review before it goes live for preorder, and not wait roughly 2 weeks. Sorry to hear about this, Jazzy. :-/


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Jazzywaltz,

Sorry to hear this.  Does seem like a little more back-and-forth would be warranted before cancelling 1800 pre-orders!

And, folks, let's remember that this is a serious issue for Jazzy.  Things you find amusing she may not.  Just sayin'.  EDIT:  Posts have been and will be removed.  PM me if you have any questions.

Betsy


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

jazzywaltz said:


> Sigh. I may look like an idiot sometimes, but I'm not that dumb. All of the titles in this set are going to be wide during the week that the set is released, and then the set as well as the individual titles will all be in KU together. I've picked KU titles for this set on purpose.


You actually CAN'T have a set on preorder in other stores if any of the books are currently in KU. Even though the set isn't currently available in the other stores, if the set can be ordered, it's not OK with Amazon if some of the books are currently in KU.

I'm sorry this happened--that's just an FYI in case it helps, and I don't know if it applies. I sure get how frustrating the back & forth was, and then the cancellation. That could even be why the preorder was cancelled, or have contributed.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

But it's the sort of thing that has been against the rules for a long, long time. She got a warning and didn't do what they told her to do. Ignore those things at your own peril.

Also, you can't take books that are in KU, put them into a box set, run the box set wide, and then yank it to put the whole set into KU. That's a violation, and you're putting a lot more at risk than one box set. Don't take that risk!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Considering the Select issue, this might be a blessing in disguise.

Like others, I, too, would do a jig if they finally clamped down on the outrageous title keyword stuffing. 

I know you're probably in shock, OP, and it does suck hard that you lost all of those pre-orders. I hope your painful lesson is one others can learn from re: titles and keywords.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

jazzywaltz said:


> Sigh. I may look like an idiot sometimes, but I'm not that dumb. All of the titles in this set are going to be wide during the week that the set is released, and then the set as well as the individual titles will all be in KU together. I've picked KU titles for this set on purpose.


Yes, but you have it up for preorder on other sites touting books that appear to me (I didn't check all, but three titles) to be in KU. It doesn't matter that it's on preorder. I'm fairly certain that's still against Amazon's TOS.


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## RedAlert (May 15, 2015)

Wow, that sucks.  It's one thing to correct you, but quite another to seemingly punish you.  They seem incompetent and uncaring.  "Thanks for writing back to us. I hope you're doing well."  Really.

If I read it correctly, after you completely caved and submitted what they wanted, they still continued to interfere with your business.  Kiddo, how could you possibly know what they want now?

I agree with the poster up the line who said that they had the right to make you comply.  Just because someone else does it doesn't mean you get to do it, too.  But, it looks more like a misunderstanding of the rules rather than wilful malfeasance on your part.

Man, my first thought was, the next step will be she goes elsewhere to market her stuff.  I'm just a nobody, but I am impressed with the preorder, and I'd be beside myself, too.  The faith of those readers are at risk.

If it doesn't self correct, you'll have to start another round of emails.  Now it's discriminatory.  I would phrase everything in the form of a question, sweetly tell them what you need them to do (they may not be professional, but you are,) and hope the problem goes away.

Good luck!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

RedAlert said:


> Wow, that sucks. It's one thing to correct you, but quite another to seemingly punish you. They seem incompetent and uncaring. "Thanks for writing back to us. I hope you're doing well." Really.


They gave her a warning! When Amazon does that, don't take the risk, especially when you're already playing loose with the rules.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

MonkishScribe,

You've made your point.  I recommend you move on.  The goal here is to be helpful and supportive, not dump on your fellow members.  Jazzy's mistake has been pointed out several times by you and others.  Thanks.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Just want to say that we've all (at least I have) not known something and had it backfire. Lots to track in this business, and you don't know stuff until you, well, KNOW it. Sometimes that happens the hard way, and that's rough.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

MonkishScribe said:


> They gave her a warning! When Amazon does that, don't take the risk, especially when you're already playing loose with the rules.


Yes, please keep telling me how wrong I was for querying Amazon about a warning and taking their word for it when they told me to ignore said warning and that my book was fine.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Rosalind James said:


> Just want to say that we've all (at least I have) not known something and had it backfire. Lots to track in this business, and you don't know stuff until you, well, KNOW it. Sometimes that happens the hard way, and that's rough.


Very true. There IS a lot of trial and error in self publishing.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> Just want to say that we've all (at least I have) not known something and had it backfire. Lots to track in this business, and you don't know stuff until you, well, KNOW it. Sometimes that happens the hard way, and that's rough.


I agree. I've made tons of errors. My big concern is that each book listed in that anthology on other vendors can now be yanked from KU, though. The authors would lose page reads even though the books are still being read and if any of those authors had prior warnings about KU violations, bigger punishments could be meted out. Losing 1,800 preorders blows the big one. Losing out on those reads and putting accounts in jeopardy could be a whole other ballgame, though.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I agree. I've made tons of errors. My big concern is that each book listed in that anthology on other vendors can now be yanked from KU, though. The authors would lose page reads even though the books are still being read and if any of those authors had prior warnings about KU violations, bigger punishments could be meted out. Losing 1,800 preorders blows the big one. Losing out on those reads and putting accounts in jeopardy could be a whole other ballgame, though.


I agree. I'd pull the book from other vendors if those books are in KU, if the anthology is still up there.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Sorry to hear it, OP, and best of luck cleaning this mess up.

I think that as much as anything else, this is a good cautionary tale about reading too much into support's rulings, and the generally inconsistent way in which policies are enforced. It's not safe to do something just because other people appear to be getting away with it. Amazon obviously hasn't devoted enough resources to KDP that they can catch and correct every violation, so you're just playing the odds.

As we all know, there's a lot of times when inconsistency works in our favor. Take adding categories, or adding books to series pages as examples. Sometimes they do it without a problem, sometimes they refuse. Just have to keep trying until you get an amenable support staffer.

The difference between the good inconsistency and the bad inconsistency is that we only need to get lucky once when it comes to winning a favorable action. Avoiding sanctions means you have to get lucky every single time.

Also reinforces my aversion to preorders, but that's kind of another story.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you.
In fact I feel super crummy.

Can they reinstate the book and the pre orders now that issues are sounding like they are fixed?

"This too shall pass."  In the big picture you WILL come out better and won't do something like this in future (which will save you for that release with 20K pre orders)

Work it out of your system!
Good luck and stay positive!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

jazzywaltz said:


> Very true. There IS a lot of trial and error in self publishing.


And then there's pushing the rules until it ruins it for everyone. Or blatantly breaking the rules because, hey, no one's going to report it.


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## Cal Lumney (Dec 8, 2015)

This is so awful, Jazzy. I'm very sorry it happened. 

I think Rosalind said it very well. I'd add that when facing an opaque bureaucracy, there are 100 ways to do things wrong and only one way to do them right.


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## RedAlert (May 15, 2015)

MonkishScribe said:


> They gave her a warning! When Amazon does that, don't take the risk, especially when you're already playing loose with the rules.


I will answer this, and then I will also move on. There is some doubt as to whether the OP was 100% clear on what the rule really is--after all, she had the extra words on the box cover. Looked legit to her. Another example: I'm going to have a tagline on my cover. If I include my tagline, am I in trouble? Who knows. It may depend on the mood of the reviewer on any particular day.

This OP did what they asked. She just wanted more details in an effort to understand. And then they misled her. That is unprofessional. And they made the critical department unavailable. It doesn't really have as much to do with what she did as it does with what they ultimately did: they effed with her business, her money, and her emotions. They may make the rules, but they don't have the right to jerk her around like that.


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## Kathryn Meyer Griffith (May 6, 2013)

Sorry this happened to you. I wish you better luck coming.
Wow...this self-publishing thing is sure getting harder every day. Just when you learn something, that something changes. This lesson is like life: Some of it is easy and some of it is hard. Sail on! Keep your chin up.
Maybe...after all is said and done could they perhaps retrieve those 1800 pre-orders somehow? I know they've retrieved old reviews for me at times. I'd see if they would do that. If it is possible.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

RedAlert said:


> This OP did what they asked. She just wanted more details in an effort to understand. And then they misled her. That is unprofessional. And they made the critical department unavailable. It doesn't really have as much to do with what she did as it does with what they ultimately did: they effed with her business, her money, and her emotions. They may make the rules, but they don't have the right to jerk her around like that.


But if you're the Amazon staffer in the position of saying "No," then you're weighing that against the fact that she has no right to break the rules. They're in an impossible situation once one of them gets it wrong. I don't think there's a point in that process where they can say "Okay, we're going to let this slide because one of the dingbats in support already promised you special treatment."

This is all an inevitable consequence of Amazon not devoting the resources needed to sort these things out proactively, and accurately. If they wanted to, they could engineer a system that would've headed off all of these issues when the draft was uploaded. They haven't done that because it'd cost them a lot to do it right, and the whole KDP program is run on a shoestring.

I'll tell you one thing: I wouldn't want to have royalties slashed to improve the system. KDP support has been shoddy for long enough that we can assume they'll never make fixes for us out of the goodness of their hearts.


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## RedAlert (May 15, 2015)

Dolphin said:


> But if you're the Amazon staffer in the position of saying "No," then you're weighing that against the fact that she has no right to break the rules. They're in an impossible situation once one of them gets it wrong. I don't think there's a point in that process where they can say "Okay, we're going to let this slide because one of the dingbats in support already promised you special treatment."


Man...sigh...I think I see it...just a minute, now...OP never said she has the right to break the rules. Neither did anyone else.

Sorry, Betsy, and now I am out.


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

And then there's this:

https://www.amazon.com/Books-Kids-Princess-Childrens-Unicorns-ebook/dp/B013C582CM

and a dozen similar titles by this author in other kids' categories.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

I just want to say I'm sorry. I hope this gets resolved favorably soon.


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## JB Rowley (Jan 29, 2012)

I am so very sorry this happened to you, Jazzy.

It's perplexing and very upsetting to have your query handled in such a way (A says No, You query, B says Yes, then C says No...). I've had something similar happen but not with such serious consequences as in your case. You've worked very hard to build those 1800 pre-orders and it must feel like a right kick in the gut to have them cancelled like that. My heart is breaking for you. I do hope the situation is sorted very soon.

All the best.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

I'm just wondering.....how often do folks here re-read the TOS, Agreements, and whatever other documentation we agree to abide by?  What do you feel you need to do to keep up? Do you track issue dates and schedule, say, a quarterly check to make sure new stuff hasn't replaced what you read?


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

As of midnight EST, the book isn't there at all. Not even a place holder.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Is "Internationally Bestselling Authors" code for "Amazon Bestselling Authors"?

As far as what happened, it sucks but lesson learned. I wouldn't try to get away with something just because everyone else is, especially after receiving that email from Amazon. 

I've also noticed a lot of books with "an Urban Fantasy novel" in the title. Amazon frowns on that as well as far as I know.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

This sucks, Jasmine. I know those pre-orders are gone for good, but hopefully your box set can rebound once you sort things out. Keep your chin up.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

RedAlert said:


> Man...sigh...I think I see it...just a minute, now...OP never said she has the right to break the rules. Neither did anyone else.


I know that. But that's what it'd amount to for a staffer who sees a violation, knows it's forbidden, and allows it to continue anyhow.

I don't think anybody had malicious intentions here.


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear about it Jazzy. It sounds to me like maybe someone reported your book, so it got caught again. I did that first promo with you, and it was awesome. You handled it like a champ.

I always thought the rule was if it's on your cover, it's ok to put it in the title. I guess that isn't strictly the case and some things still aren't ok.


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## Jarmitagetheauthor (Sep 30, 2015)

As a person who has had to deal with Amazon's customer service, I feel your pain. My issue took weeks to sort out when I'm pretty sure if I'd have been able to speak to a real human (can't call Amazon from the uk) I could have sorted it out in minutes. I wasn't sure if I was conversing with a robot or not. I know it sucks but I don't think it's as bad as you think. Here is why.
I ordered that box set. I got the message this morning that it had been cancelled. I ate my cornflakes and wondered why. I thought I'd come on kboards and see if I could find out (because I'm nosy - erm curious.) As soon as it goes live again I will re order it. If I will do that, who is to say other people wont?
I suspect a great many will. Some won't, I know, but those might be made up by the curious ones telling friends. I'm willing to bet that by the time the book goes live, you'll have way over 1800 pre-orders.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

NeedWant said:


> I've also noticed a lot of books with "an Urban Fantasy novel" in the title. Amazon frowns on that as well as far as I know.


Oh, no. Someone better tell all the bestsellers, many of them trad published, whose books say "A Novel" or "A Horror Novel" or "A Memoir" or whatever.

https://www.amazon.com/Room-Novel-Emma-Donoghue-ebook/dp/B003YFIUW8
https://www.amazon.com/Running-Scissors-Memoir-Augusten-Burroughs-ebook/dp/B002ASFPX2
https://www.amazon.com/Sworn-Sword-Graphic-Novel-Thrones-ebook/dp/B00DP5H0IC

This is a time-honored practice from long before Amazon was even a twinkle in Jeff Bezos's eye. It helps readers to find what they are looking for, and to know what they are getting.

As long as the words are on the cover this is completely a-OK under Amazon's TOS.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

lilywhite said:


> Oh, no. Someone better tell all the bestsellers, many of them trad published, whose books say "A Novel" or "A Horror Novel" or "A Memoir" or whatever.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Room-Novel-Emma-Donoghue-ebook/dp/B003YFIUW8
> https://www.amazon.com/Running-Scissors-Memoir-Augusten-Burroughs-ebook/dp/B002ASFPX2
> ...


I'm talking about indie books, and we all know we can't do stuff the trads can do, so I definitely wouldn't use those as an example of what's allowed. Also, the books I was talking about do not have those words on the cover. Just take a look at the OP's books on Amazon and the books in her alsobots.

A lot of people here call out erotica authors for keyword stuffing, but are silent when it comes to other genres. Why?


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

Gee, I was complaining to myself that Amazon can't seem to give me a series bar for my series. This puts it into perspective. Sorry this happened to you, Jazzy.


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## JB Rowley (Jan 29, 2012)

Bbates024 said:


> It sounds to me like maybe someone reported your book...


That was my thought, too.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

To Jazzy, I'm so sorry this happened to you.

To the people suggesting she should have known, we're all in the business, we're reading the same letter and we don't even agree on what the issue is. I think it's the term "bestseller", they've always been funny about authors describing themselves as bestsellers, to the point they've laid out the conditions in which you can use the term. That means they aren't cracking down on keyword stuffing so the BWWM Regency BDSM Pirate Billionaire Shifter Inspirationals are probably here to stay.

There was no reason for her not to trust their word when they wrote her back saying it was a mistake and everything was fine.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Hopefully the 1800 readers will come through even though the pre-orders were cancelled.

If Amazon fixes it, great.  Except for the stress and worry....  

If they don't, you need to get the word out to your readers when the book is available.  (Hopefully you have a mailing list and can explain the problems there?)

If you're concerned about getting sales and not pages read, maybe make sure the book isn't in KU.  

I hope it works out!  It's always so easy to second-guess from the outside...


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## nigel p bird (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm really sorry about what's happened. It's impossible not to feel your pain. I'm sure that in time there'll be some kind of resolution even if it isn't quite as amazing as the promise the early sales showed. 

It's the 'I now I want to die' part of the title I wanted to focus upon (and, yes, I do understand this is just an expression of woe). It's a wave of emotion and it's something that many of us here might shout out every once in a while. My advice is to do something you love (something other that write and promote that is) out there in the other world of ours where the people and the trees, the coffee and the shops, the sea and the sky are. Treat yourself and remember there's a whole lot out there to enjoy and then gather yourself for the next round.

Wishing you well.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Most of my working career has been in the customer service field.  Customer service agents are generally powerless. They have a list of do's and don'ts and usually aren't allowed to make any decisions themselves. They also have to enforce company policies, even if they seem ridiculous. Oh and the rules  often change based on who the on duty supervisor is! 

This just looks like more of that corporate merry-go-round nonsense and poor Jazzy got caught up in it. My guess is one supervisor thought her title was fine. The book came up again, and the next person in charge decided it wasn't.  Hopefully she can recover her losses.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Why would "Best Seller" or "Best Selling" be dirty words for ebooks, but OK for paperbacks and hardback books?

"Cause paperbacks and hardbacks cannot be scanned by bots.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

MonkishScribe said:


> But it's the sort of thing that has been against the rules for a long, long time. She got a warning and didn't do what they told her to do. Ignore those things at your own peril.
> 
> Also, you can't take books that are in KU, put them into a box set, run the box set wide, and then yank it to put the whole set into KU. That's a violation, and you're putting a lot more at risk than one box set. Don't take that risk!


But she...did...do what they told her to do.

I think that's really the issue. Let's recap.

She made a boo boo she didn't know was a boo boo that tons of other people make.
She emailed amazon and said, "IS this really a boo boo?"
They said "no, not a boo boo."
They pulled her book.
*She immediately fixed it.*
They said okay, we good.
Then they said, "look it's even live!" (but it wasn't)
Then they said, "It's being suppressed. We'll forward to the correct team."
Then they said, "NOW YOUR BOOK IS GONE." > Please refer to bolded.


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## Jean E (Aug 29, 2011)

kcmorgan said:


> To Jazzy, I'm so sorry this happened to you.
> 
> To the people suggesting she should have known, we're all in the business, we're reading the same letter and we don't even agree on what the issue is....
> 
> There was no reason for her not to trust their word when they wrote her back saying it was a mistake and everything was fine.


Good points. Sorry you are having such trouble, Jazzy.


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## John Magna (Mar 22, 2016)

I'm sorry this happened OP.  Losing 1800 preorders sux rocky mountain oysters.

You didn't have to post your experience, but you did. To me that shows a lot of courage and fortitude. Now others can learn from it without having to go through something that awful.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

For those giving Jazzy a hard time, let me just suggest, the BEST and MOST TALENTED writers tend to be empathetic. That's how they write great characters -- they can put themselves in their character's shoes and relate to the emotions of that character enough to convey that. And we're all awesome writers here, right? Which means we're all capable of empathizing with Jasmine's situation, even if we _think_ we'll never find ourselves in her situation. We should do that.

We should also remember that one day, even if we have all the time in the world and sleep, eat, and breathe the Amazon TOS (PS: tell me your secret to having that much time, please), it's entirely possible that somehow, some way, we might miss an update that could then put us in Jasmine's shoes, even though at this moment, we think that's impossible because we're perfect and would never do that and "OMG HOW COULD JAZZY DO THAT it's all her fault." But because we're amazing writers, we can see that thinking that was is totally ridiculous and cold-hearted and not the way a skilled writer would think at all, because skilled writers are capable of empathy.

So I'm sure no one here is thinking that way because this board is just booming with talent. THAT's how I know every single person here is capable of empathizing with Jasmine, IF they choose to. Even though some can't imagine it (any more than I can imagine being chased by a vampire even though I can empathize with my characters enough to write that situation) they can still relate to how this situation might feel and see how this honest mistake could happen to anyone...even themselves.

And if that doesn't work, how about just don't kick people while they're down. That has nothing to do with having the writer's gift of empathy and is more about just being decent.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

So sorry this happened to you, Jazzy. I hope it all gets resolved soon.  

+1 for Rebecca. What she said.


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## DaniO (Oct 22, 2012)

Sorry this happened, Jazzy. I bet most of the people who preordered will buy it when it's released. I hope you get things sorted and the book is back up soon.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

kcmorgan said:


> There was no reason for her not to trust their word when they wrote her back saying it was a mistake and everything was fine.


There can be a positive takeaway from this whole ordeal if we all learn--or relearn--that KDP's support and policy enforcement are wildly inconsistent. Jazzy learned the hard way, but since she graciously shared her experience with us, others might be spared. This isn't the first time such a thing has happened, and it won't be the last.

Part of the lesson is that you _shouldn't_ trust someone from KDP support when they say that that thing you tried, that maybe you're not 100% sure about, is totally fine. It doesn't set a controlling precedent. It doesn't protect you from someone else, somewhere down the line, finding differently. You proceed at your own risk.

Another lesson is that the risk is higher when we're talking about preorders--they wouldn't have refunded those 1,800 purchases and deleted the books from everybody's Kindles if this had happened post-launch.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

Sorry, that sounds awful. Hope you get it sorted soon.

I've never even tried a pre-order, too worried about the things that might go wrong.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Oh man, this is terrible. So sorry this happened to you OP, can only imagine how stressed you are. Hope it works out.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

I'm still confused about how putting a number of KU-enrolled books in a bundle and submitting it to wide pre-orders works with Amazon's ToS. It seems as though multiple authors have a problem here. I'm also confused as to how 21 books stays under the KU limit of 3,000 pages. Of course, I'm confused a lot...


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

There are also reports, on these very boards, about authors having asked if it's OK to put a title on preorder at another venue while in KU, and having been told that it is.

All proof that KDP support SUCKS, you can't trust them as far as you can throw them, and someone should kick them up the behind and tell them to get with the program.


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## kimberlyloth (May 15, 2014)

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I just want to say that I'm so sorry. This sucks, suck, sucks!!!!!  It might not mean much, but here's a big hug. Hope it goes live again soon. Your cover is gorgeous.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

brkingsolver said:


> I'm also confused as to how 21 books stays under the KU limit of 3,000 pages.


That's just a limit on payments, right? Amazon's probably happy enough if somebody reads a 30,000 KENP book and they only have to pay the author(s) for 3,000.

I do wonder if the KU thing was actually a part of the problems behind the scenes and that just never got communicated by support. Wouldn't be a shock.


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## A Woman&#039;s Place Is In The Rebellion (Apr 28, 2011)

Actually felt nauseous reading your post. I hope you're able to salvage this in some way.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Okey Dokey said:


> Why would "Best Seller" or "Best Selling" be dirty words for ebooks, but OK for paperbacks and hardback books?
> 
> "Cause paperbacks and hardbacks cannot be scanned by bots.


No, because she stuffed it into the subtitle, which is not okay. Trade published books do not have their Best Seller status stuffed into the title or subtitle.


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## Nicksm28 (May 16, 2016)

Just to clarify-they did give you an opportunity to fix some things and put it back up?  In other words it wasn't a final removal?


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## MinnieC (Feb 19, 2016)

Oh my. You must be so upset. I'm sorry this has happened, and I hope you can salvage something from it.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

SevenDays said:


> No, because she stuffed it into the subtitle, which is not okay. Trade published books do not have their Best Seller status stuffed into the title or subtitle.


Okay, I did finally find one that's trade-published and crosses the line. This one is sketchy too. We're not exactly talking about Stephen King here. It's a lot easier to find indies abusing it, that's for sure.

Regardless, it only reinforces the fact that although Amazon doesn't catch everybody and the rule isn't enforced equitably, you won't get far arguing hypocrisy if they catch _you_. We certainly all know the rule now, so on your own head be it if you decide to take a risk.


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## J.J. Fitch (Jun 17, 2015)

I'm sorry that you have to go through this, Jazzy.  I hope Amazon can fix this for you!

And I'm sorry for the kboarders who can't seem to find some empathy for you.  I certainly wouldn't have known those rules.  Hard lesson to learn


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## TaraCrescent (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm really sorry, Jazzy. That just absolutely sucks.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

jazzywaltz said:


> Most of you might not know this, but less than two weeks ago the pre-order for my multi-author boxed set, Magic and Mayhem, went live on Amazon, Nook, iBooks and Kobo. We got nearly 800 sales on the first day, hit #108 in the rankings, and were off to an AMAZING start.
> 
> About a week ago, though, I got the following email from Amazon's "Quality Control" department telling me that I needed to change my book's subtitle:
> 
> ...


That is tough to go through. Sorry to hear about it.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> I'm also confused as to how 21 books stays under the KU limit of 3,000 pages. Of course, I'm confused a lot...


(assuming they are all full-length novels, and not novellas and short stories) You load a significantly shorter file for the preorder, allowing you to do the 0.99c pricing. That way, you can make a run at the bestseller lists with a 99c preorder that will be forced to accept a $2.99 price once the real file is loaded. And, since the preorder is always the lowest price, even if you have to change the price to $2.99 in the last couple of days before release, everyone still gets the 99c price.

You can also hope that you can get price matching from other vendors and Amazon doesn't send you a nastygram.

Those are the ways that immediately jump to mind.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Ugh, sorry to hear that  I hope it gets sorted out.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Sigh. I may look like an idiot sometimes, but I'm not that dumb. All of the titles in this set are going to be wide during the week that the set is released, and then the set as well as the individual titles will all be in KU together. I've picked KU titles for this set on purpose.


*It is illegal to have books on preorder at other vendors if titles are in KU.* I was interested in doing this so contacted them myself to find out. Now, it could be the rep I had wasn't knowledgeable, sometimes they contradict each other, and maybe you got it in writing, or have a special agent?

Also, for the record, Zon is cracking down hard on books that are larger than 3.5 MB being price matched down to 99-cents. I actually made my 99-cent multi-author box set free partially because they were calling me about it, telling me I had to raise it to 1.99 (after saying it was fine.)

Lately I had another set pulled down because the cover didn't match the content (except it did.) It was horrible, and I'm still not sure we've completely recovered in the rankings ... I've felt your pain, and spent time pulling out my hair and crying due to Zon's inconsistencies.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I know it hurts, but in your case, with the KU issue, it really might be a blessing.

_Let's concede that the word "illegal" here was misused; I believe CG meant it in the sense of "against Amazon's ToS". CG, you may wish to revised your post if this thread is unlocked. --Betsy_


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I think it would be useful to the newer members reading this thread if something in the ToS could be quoted here to clarify things concerning the KU bundle issue--if there is anything in the ToS.  The benefit of any threads like this goes beyond the OP's own situation--the benefit is in the education for other members.

Thanks!

Betsy


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Dolphin said:


> Okay, I did finally find one that's trade-published and crosses the line. This one is sketchy too. We're not exactly talking about Stephen King here. It's a lot easier to find indies abusing it, that's for sure.


Ah okay. Good catch. I had to Google the first publisher because it looked dodgy, but lo and behold it's an imprint under a bigger, more well-known publisher.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

nigel p bird said:


> It's the 'I now I want to die' part of the title I wanted to focus upon (and, yes, I do understand this is just an expression of woe). It's a wave of emotion and it's something that many of us here might shout out every once in a while.
> 
> *My advice is to do something you love (something other that write and promote that is) out there in the other world of ours where the people and the trees, the coffee and the shops, the sea and the sky are. Treat yourself and remember there's a whole lot out there to enjoy* and then gather yourself for the next round.


This.

So much this.

And, hugs.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I think it would be useful to the newer members reading this thread if something in the ToS could be quoted here to clarify things concerning the KU bundle issue--if there is anything in the ToS. The benefit of any threads like this goes beyond the OP's own situation--the benefit is in the education for other members.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Betsy


For KDP Select terms

*1 Exclusivity. *When you include a Digital Book in KDP Select, you give us the exclusive right to sell and distribute your Digital Book in digital format while your book is in KDP Select. *During this period of exclusivity, you cannot sell or distribute, or give anyone else the right to sell or distribute, your Digital Book (or a book that is substantially similar), in digital format in any territory where you have rights. *

This ^ is found under the KDP TOS on the main page (all the way on the bottom)

As for Keywords and titles
Titles:
*Do not include these things in keywords: *
*● Information covered elsewhere in your book's metadata-title, contributor(s), category, etc. 
● Subjective claims about quality (e.g. "best") *
● Statements that are only temporarily true ("new," "on sale," "available now") 
● Information common to most items in the category ("book") 
● Common misspellings 
● Variants of spacing, punctuation, capitalization, and pluralization (both "80GB" and "80 GB", "computer" and "computers", etc.). The only exception is for words translated in more than one way, like "Mao Zedong" and "Mao Tse-tung," or "Hanukkah" and "Chanukah." 
*● Anything misrepresentative,* such as the name of an author that is not associated with your book. This type of information can create a confusing customer experience and *Kindle Direct Publishing has a zero tolerance policy for metadata that is meant to advertise, promote, or mislead. 
*
https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A2EZES9JAJ6H02

The problem with Amazon is that the reps don't understand the policy. If *AMAZON*screws up, they should give the author a heads up and say "fix this" instead of going heavy handed.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Oh, I'm so sorry. There is nothing worse than thinking you have resolved a problem and then having it fall on your head.

Y'all, we all make mistakes sometimes. Jasmine obviously tried to correct hers by contacting the company and following their advice. To have almost 2,000 sales, rank, etc disappear after she was told she was all good must be devastating. Let's remember that this is not just about Jazz v The 'Zon - this affects her livelihood and her professional reputation with her fans. Again, I'll point out that she wrote the company asking for clarification and was told everything was fine.

Hon, I would be utterly sick. Good luck getting it all sorted out.


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## Gina Black (Mar 15, 2011)

What a nightmare! I'm so sorry this has happened to you, Jasmine. 

I hope this gets sorted out quickly and people are able to place their pre-orders once again.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

dianapersaud said:


> For KDP Select terms
> 
> *1 Exclusivity. *When you include a Digital Book in KDP Select, you give us the exclusive right to sell and distribute your Digital Book in digital format while your book is in KDP Select. *During this period of exclusivity, you cannot sell or distribute, or give anyone else the right to sell or distribute, your Digital Book (or a book that is substantially similar), in digital format in any territory where you have rights. *
> 
> This ^ is found under the KDP TOS on the main page (all the way on the bottom)


But to be fair, NO venue INCLUDING Amazon, collects money or considers it a sale until it's *published* - not in preorder. And it's not distributed to until it's not in preorder any more, on the publication date. So if those books AREN'T in KU when those preorders turn into SALE and DELIVERY, then *technically* it's not against their TOS because they aren't being SOLD or DISTRIBUTED. They are being REQUESTED to be sold at a future date - which is not the same thing. When a reader preorders, they are saying "At a FUTURE DATE I will buy" and the vendor is selling "At a FUTURE DATE I will distribute." But sale and distribution is not taking place at that time. There is no exchange of money or goods at that time.

Of course, they may change their wording at some point because maybe they FEEL it is against their TOS, but _technically_ that is not what their TOS actually SAYS. And they may _FEEL_ it currently breaks their TOS and act on that (though they didn't say that was the case here). But if we're going by words, they are NOT, from a legal standpoint, using the right terms to indicate that you cannot put the book on preorder elsewhere. I mean, yes, we should go by what we think Amazon means to avoid their wrath (though there are times by going by what we think amazon feels and not what they said gets us into trouble, too, so there's that), but I'm just saying, that really isn't what they said in their TOS, so saying it is is simply not true.

Considering Amazon's got a whole legal team to write up their TOS, I would think they would be more specific and use the correct language to say what they mean. Unless, of course, they never meant to stop you from offering preorders in those cases. But if they did, saying you can't "sell" or "distribute" doesn't cover "offer for preorder but don't have it actually sell or distribute until you're out of KU." Legally speaking, that was Amazon's boo boo, and Jasmine is NOT in violation of that _as it is written in their TOS currently_.


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## Viv Phoenix (Dec 19, 2015)

My Dog's Servant said:


> I'm just wondering.....how often do folks here re-read the TOS, Agreements, and whatever other documentation we agree to abide by? What do you feel you need to do to keep up? Do you track issue dates and schedule, say, a quarterly check to make sure new stuff hasn't replaced what you read?


Not often enough. I've made a few bloopers. There have been things I didn't know, things I missed, things I forgot. A couple times at the beginning I took bad advice and later found out I was breaking a rule.

Sorry this happened to the OP and glad she posted. I'm going to go through my catalog and reread some TOS. BTW, there are also rules for keywords. https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A2EZES9JAJ6H02


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> But to be fair, NO venue INCLUDING Amazon, collects money or considers it a sale until it's *published* - not in preorder. And it's not distributed to until it's not in preorder any more, on the publication date. So if those books AREN'T in KU when those preorders turn into SALE and DELIVERY, then *technically* it's not against their TOS because they aren't being SOLD or DISTRIBUTED. They are being REQUESTED to be sold at a future date - which is not the same thing. When a reader preorders, they are saying "At a FUTURE DATE I will buy" and the vendor is selling "At a FUTURE DATE I will distribute." But sale and distribution is not taking place at that time. There is no exchange of money or goods at that time.
> 
> Of course, they may change their wording at some point because maybe they FEEL it is against their TOS, but _technically_ that is not what their TOS actually SAYS. And they may _FEEL_ it currently breaks their TOS and act on that (though they didn't say that was the case here). But if we're going by words, they are NOT, from a legal standpoint, using the right terms to indicate that you cannot put the book on preorder elsewhere. I mean, yes, we should go by what we think Amazon means to avoid their wrath, but I'm just saying, that really isn't what they said in their TOS, so saying it is is simply not true.
> 
> Considering Amazon's got a whole legal team to write up their TOS, I would think they would be more specific and use the correct language to say what they mean. Unless, of course, they never meant to stop you from offering preorders in those cases. But if they did, saying you can't "sell" or "distribute" doesn't cover "offer for preorder but don't have it actually sell or distribute until you're out of KU."


It doesn't matter. It's still up for sale on other vendors and Amazon is likely to yank every book in that bundle out of KU (and the authors will lose reads) once their bots catch it. Other people have been dinged for it. And, if any of those authors have gotten a warning from Amazon before, they're risking their accounts.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It doesn't matter. It's still up for sale on other vendors and Amazon is likely to yank every book in that bundle out of KU (and the authors will lose reads) once their bots catch it. Other people have been dinged for it. And, if any of those authors have gotten a warning from Amazon before, they're risking their accounts.


But it's not up for sale. It's up for PREORDER - which just is not counted as a sale by ANYONE until publication date and is not distributed until that time either. Amazon TOS says you can't SELL or DISTRIBUTE. A preorder is doing neither of those things at the time the reader agrees to buy. Like I said, people should act on what Amazon means, but LEGALLY SPEAKING she is NOT breaking their TOS based on what their TOS actually SAYS.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> But it's not up for sale. It's up for PREORDER. Like I said, people should act on what Amazon means, but LEGALLY SPEAKING she is NOT breaking their TOS based on what their TOS actually SAYS.


Preorders are still future sales and it IS against Amazon's TOS. You cannot put a book in KU up for sale at other vendors, whether preorder or not.


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## Gina Black (Mar 15, 2011)

I think it's gray enough to be a dangerous thing to do. Whether a pre-order is an actual sale or an promised sale, it's giving the Amazon customer another place to *buy* the book while it's supposed to be exclusive. Whether the book is delivered when it's bought, or two weeks later, it still drains Amazon from that potential revenue.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Preorders are still future sales and it IS against Amazon's TOS. You cannot put a book in KU up for sale at other vendors, whether preorder or not.


No, Preorders are not always future sales. They can be cancelled  And amazon doesn't say, "If you are in KU, you can't sell your book elsewhere at a future date when you aren't in KU anymore" So it's NOT against Amazon TOS. They may have MEANT it to be, and authors should act based on what they meant, but it's NOT what they said and from a legal standpoint it's NOT against their TOS.


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## Jill Nojack (Mar 7, 2014)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> But it's not up for sale. It's up for PREORDER - which just is not counted as a sale by ANYONE until publication date and is not distributed until that time either. Amazon TOS says you can't SELL or DISTRIBUTE. A preorder is doing neither of those things at the time the reader agrees to buy. Like I said, people should act on what Amazon means, but LEGALLY SPEAKING she is NOT breaking their TOS based on what their TOS actually SAYS.


By putting a book on preorder, (from the terms stating what you cannot give) you "give anyone else the right to sell or distribute, your Digital Book (or a book that is substantially similar), in digital format in any territory where you have rights."

You can't put up a preorder without giving the distributor the right to sell and distribute it. It is in the terms.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Gina Black said:


> I think it's gray enough to be a dangerous thing to do. Whether a pre-order is an actual sale or an promised sale, it's giving the Amazon customer another place to *buy* the book while it's supposed to be exclusive. Whether the book is delivered when it's bought, or two weeks later, it still drains Amazon from that potential revenue.


I agree it's still dangerous to do and I agree Amazon probably *means* to include preorders. I'm just saying legally their TOS language doesn't indicate that.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> But to be fair, NO venue INCLUDING Amazon, collects money or considers it a sale until it's *published* -


The problem is that Amazon's bots will pick up the listing. The book is available for sale and Amazon uses a chainsaw, not a scalpel. We simply cannot expect Amazon to differentiate between a pre-order that is technically not available to read yet and a live listing. History tells us they won't. It is the same reason authors get nastygrams when the bots find your book on a pirate site. Amazon is not going to do the heavy lifting to differentiate between a legtimate listing and a pirate one.

I wish I had helpful advice for the OP. Unfortunately, ignorance of the law (and even getting wrong information from Amazon) is not protection from Amazon. For people moving forward: read the TOS, understand it, and don't skate up to the letter of the TOS. Some folks (NOT saying the OP did this) will push the letter of a rule to the breaking point. Understand the INTENT of the rule and act accordingly. Don't get cute and think you are "getting over" because you are "technically" obeying the TOS because it only takes one Amazon customer service rep to interpret the rule differently to throw you for a loop.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Anyway, I spoke to Jazzy last night and whether they did this because of KU or not (and I don't believe they did), she'll look into using different titles not in KU from these authors. But legally she is not in the wrong, and I think that is worth mentioning when people are FALSELY accusing her of breaking the law and saying she did something illegal, as one commenter said. Trust me, in a court of law, language IS important. Not that I think Amazon will take Jasmine to court or that she could afford the lawyer she would need to stand against Amazon  but people need to be more careful accusing people of breaking the law when they didn't. That in itself can become a legal problem.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> No, Preorders are not always future sales. They can be cancelled  And amazon doesn't say, "If you are in KU, you can't sell your book elsewhere at a future date when you aren't in KU anymore" So it's NOT against Amazon TOS. They may have MEANT it to be, and authors should act based on what they meant, but it's NOT what they said and from a legal standpoint it's NOT against their TOS.


It IS against their TOS no matter what you want to believe. Sorry. You cannot enter into an agreement to distribute a book in KU as long as it's in KU. That's what a preorder is, an agreement to distribute.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The problem is that Amazon's bots will pick up the listing. The book is available for sale and Amazon uses a chainsaw, not a scalpel. We simply cannot expect Amazon to differentiate between a pre-order that is technically not available to read yet and a live listing. History tells us they won't. It is the same reason authors get nastygrams when the bots find your book on a pirate site. Amazon is not going to do the heavy lifting to differentiate between a legtimate listing and a pirate one.
> 
> I wish I had helpful advice for the OP. Unfortunately, ignorance of the law (and even getting wrong information from Amazon) is not protection from Amazon. For people moving forward: read the TOS, understand it, and don't skate up to the letter of the TOS. Some folks (NOT saying the OP did this) will push the letter of a rule to the breaking point. Understand the INTENT of the rule and act accordingly. Don't get cute and think you are "getting over" because you are "technically" obeying the TOS because it only takes one Amazon customer service rep to interpret the rule differently to throw you for a loop.


Yes, I agree. There a reasons it's best not to do this, all things considered. I just wanted to point out that she's not breaking the law, as someone was saying what she did was illegal, and that's a hefty accusation to make when it's technically not true.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Agreeing with Dolphin and Patty that the primary take-away from this is KDP's inconsistency/incompetence. The fact that there's some ultra-powerful "title review team" sequestered in a telephoneless room sounds like something out of Monty Python.

I can see how people might think books that are currently in KU can be put up for preorder on other sites. You can look at the wording of the TOS and argue the books aren't actually "sold" or "distributed" until they come off preorder. That's when the price is finalized and the customer receives the product. It'd be very easy for KDP to clarify this matter in the TOS ("KU books cannot be available for free distribution, sale, or preorder on other sites."), but of course they don't, which creates the opportunity for authors to misunderstand and for different KDP reps to interpret the TOS differently.

The rules on titles are the one thing in this situation where KDP's rules seem to be pretty clear:



> Book Titles
> Titles are the most frequently used search attribute. The title field should contain only the actual title of your book as it appears on your book cover. Missing or erroneous title information may bury valid results among extraneous hits. Customers pay special attention to errors in titles and won't recognize the authenticity of your book if it has corrupted special characters, superfluous words, bad formatting, extra descriptive content, etc. Examples of items that are prohibited in the title field include but are not limited to:
> 
> • Unauthorized reference to other titles or authors
> ...


 (source)

So why, then, did a rep tell Jazzy her subtitle was okay? That should not have happened. Apparently, someone thought the must-appear-on-the-book's-cover rule actually meant something more like "anything's okay so long as it appears on the book's cover," which is probably what Jazzy thought too. It's perfectly understandable that authors sometimes misunderstand the rules, but the same thing cannot be said of KDP reps. They pretty clearly are not being adequately trained. And adequate training would be a lot easier if the rules were laid out in greater detail, with potential gray areas explicitly addressed.

And while they're at it, how about making consequences consistent and reasonable? Cancelling 1,800 preorders because the word "bestselling" appears in the subtitle? Really? Unless the claim is false and can therefore be seen as having misled the preorderers (and that's not the case here), cancelling preorders seems weirdly draconian to me.

Jazzy, I'm sure this will get resolved eventually, and that the collection will do well. Hang in there.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> Anyway, I spoke to Jazzy last night and whether they did this because of KU or not (and I don't believe they did), she'll look into using different titles not in KU from these authors. But legally she is not in the wrong, and I think that is worth mentioning when people are FALSELY accusing her of breaking the law and saying she did something illegal, as one commenter said. Trust me, in a court of law, language IS important. Not that I think Amazon will take Jasmine to court or that she could afford the lawyer she would need to stand against Amazon  but people need to be more careful accusing people of breaking the law when they didn't. That in itself can become a legal problem.


This is a TOS issue, not a criminal issue. People use the word "illegal" too easily. This is a TOS issue between Amazon and a vendor. Unfortunately, Amazon has all the power and can interpret their own TOS however they want.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> Anyway, I spoke to Jazzy last night and whether they did this because of KU or not (and I don't believe they did), she'll look into using different titles not in KU from these authors. But legally she is not in the wrong, and I think that is worth mentioning when people are FALSELY accusing her of breaking the law and saying she did something illegal, as one commenter said. Trust me, in a court of law, language IS important. Not that I think Amazon will take Jasmine to court or that she could afford the lawyer she would need to stand against Amazon  but people need to be more careful accusing people of breaking the law when they didn't. That in itself can become a legal problem.


Against the law was the wrong term. It is against the rules, though, and Amazon can do whatever they want -- including being punitive and banning accounts.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It IS against their TOS no matter what you want to believe. Sorry. You cannot enter into an agreement to distribute a book in KU as long as it's in KU. That's what a preorder is, an agreement to distribute.


It's NOT against their TOS as the TOS are current WRITTEN. IT's not about what I want to believe. It's about the meaning of words and how they even interpret the meaning of those words in doing business where those words are considered every where in the conduction of their business. And the TOS never said you can't enter an agreement to distribute a book anywhere other than KU at a future date. Lots of people say "When my term in KU is over, I'm going to publish on Nook" and no one is telling them "you can't agree to do that while you're still in KU" That's _actually_ ridiculous. I'm sticking to the facts here. All I know is that

1) the TOS don't actually say what you believe they say
2) it doesn't matter what the TOS actually say because Amazon probably means something else
3) in this case, to be safe, we should act based on what they mean, not on what they said.
4) sometimes acting on what they mean instead of what they say is a bad idea, but probably not in this case

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This is a TOS issue, not a criminal issue. People use the word "illegal" too easily. This is a TOS issue between Amazon and a vendor. Unfortunately, Amazon has all the power and can interpret their own TOS however they want.


Agreed!


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> Agreeing with Dolphin and Patty that the primary take-away from this is KDP's inconsistency/incompetence. The fact that there's some ultra-powerful "title review team" sequestered in a telephoneless room sounds like something out of Monty Python.
> 
> I can see how people might think books that are currently in KU can be put up for preorder on other sites. You can look at the wording of the TOS and argue the books aren't actually "sold" or "distributed" until they come off preorder. That's when the price is finalized and the customer receives the product. It'd be very easy for KDP to clarify this matter in the TOS ("KU books cannot be available for free distribution, sale, or preorder on other sites."), but of course they don't, which creates the opportunity for authors to misunderstand and for different KDP reps to interpret the TOS differently.
> 
> ...


Well said -- all of it.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Sorry this happened Jasmine! But might there be a silver lining for all of this? After all, pre-orders don't count towards opening day sales, at least that's my understanding. Maybe having the pre-order cancelled can help the boxed set hit the USA Today List or the NY Times list. It probably would have anyhow, judging by how popular the pre-order was, but you never know. Everything happens for a reason, I usually say.

And I have my own personal experience on how little you can trust a rep. Back when I was a newbie, and knew absolutely nothing, I stupidly put a boxed set into KDP Select (KU wasn't a thing at the time), when the individual books in the boxed set were wide. When somebody on the board helpfully pointed out that was against the TOS, I wrote KDP and asked them what I should do. The rep answered back that it was perfectly fine to have a boxed set in KDP Select, even if the other titles were wide. So, I told people on the board that this was fine, and soon found out that it wasn't. It all turned out okay, though, because the whole thing was never caught by the bots or any of that, and I safely took the boxed set out of KDP Select at the first opportunity, once I found out that I was violating the TOS. But that whole incident taught me not to take the word of a rep!!!!

Live and learn....we all do!!!!


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

anniejocoby said:


> Sorry this happened Jasmine! But might there be a silver lining for all of this? *After all, pre-orders don't count towards opening day sales, at least that's my understanding. Maybe having the pre-order cancelled can help the boxed set hit the USA Today List or the NY Times list. *It probably would have anyhow, judging by how popular the pre-order was, but you never know. Everything happens for a reason, I usually say.
> 
> And I have my own personal experience on how little you can trust a rep. Back when I was a newbie, and knew absolutely nothing, I stupidly put a boxed set into KDP Select (KU wasn't a thing at the time), when the individual books in the boxed set were wide. When somebody on the board helpfully pointed out that was against the TOS, I wrote KDP and asked them what I should do. The rep answered back that it was perfectly fine to have a boxed set in KDP Select, even if the other titles were wide. So, I told people on the board that this was fine, and soon found out that it wasn't. It all turned out okay, though, because the whole thing was never caught by the bots or any of that, and I safely took the boxed set out of KDP Select at the first opportunity, once I found out that I was violating the TOS. But that whole incident taught me not to take the word of a rep!!!!
> 
> Live and learn....we all do!!!!


No  Preorders count toward release week which help people make lists because they get the 13 weeks of sales counted on one week. The preorders don't count as sales UNTIL release day (or in some case, the day before, but depending on when you release, that counts toward the current week for list-making).


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This is a TOS issue, not a criminal issue. People use the word "illegal" too easily. This is a TOS issue between Amazon and a vendor. Unfortunately, Amazon has all the power and can interpret their own TOS however they want.


Yeah, at most it's a breach of contract, not anything criminal. That makes it civil, but even that's a bit strong, because nobody would be suing anybody. I don't think that this would see the inside of a courtroom, or an arbitration panel (can't remember if there's an arbitration clause in our contract with Amazon). We all signed a contract, and have to abide by it, nothing more than that.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> It's NOT against their TOS as the TOS are current WRITTEN.


It absolutely is. Here's the pertinent part [emphasis is mine]:



> 1 Exclusivity. When you include a Digital Book in KDP Select, you give us the exclusive right to sell and distribute your Digital Book in digital format while your book is in KDP Select. *During this period of exclusivity, you cannot* sell or distribute, or *give anyone else the right to sell or distribute*, your Digital Book (or a book that is substantially similar), in digital format in any territory where you have rights.


By putting a book up on preorder, you're giving someone other than Amazon the right to distribute your book while still bound by the exclusivity terms of Select.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> No  Preorders count toward release week which help people make lists because they get the 13 weeks of sales counted on one week. The preorders don't count as sales UNTIL release day (or in some case, the day before, but depending on when you release, that counts toward the current week for list-making).


Oh, my bad. I didn't know that - I always heard that it doesn't count towards release week. In that case, that REALLY sucks.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

anniejocoby said:


> Oh, my bad. I didn't know that - I always heard that it doesn't count towards release week. In that case, that REALLY sucks.


Actually, they don't count on Amazon. They do on Apple and some of the other vendors (can't remember which ones at the moment). But Amazon counts those sales as they go along, which is why pre-orders can have a rank before they're actually on sale. What gets dumped into your account all at once on release day is the payment for those pre-orders.

This is why people will have pre-orders on Apple and some of the other sites but not on Amazon -- because they want all those sales to hit in the same week.

At least, that's my understanding from reading other people's posts on the subject.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Two sections of the ToS that everyone should be aware of. Please note the parts about Amazon's "discretion". Basically, they don't have to even give you a reason for pulling your book or suspending your account.

"The term of this Agreement will begin upon your acceptance of it and will continue until it is terminated by us or by you. We are entitled to terminate this Agreement and your access to your Program account at any time. We will notify you upon termination. You are entitled to terminate at any time by providing us notice of termination, in which event we will cease selling your Digital Books within 5 business days from the date you provide us notice of termination. We may also suspend your Program account at any time with or without notice to you, for any reason in our discretion." 

"Digital Book Rejection. We are entitled to determine what content we accept and distribute through the Program in our sole discretion."


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

ChristinePope said:


> Actually, they don't count on Amazon. They do on Apple and some of the other vendors (can't remember which ones at the moment). But Amazon counts those sales as they go along, which is why pre-orders can have a rank before they're actually on sale. What gets dumped into your account all at once on release day is the payment for those pre-orders.
> 
> This is why people will have pre-orders on Apple and some of the other sites but not on Amazon -- because they want all those sales to hit in the same week.
> 
> At least, that's my understanding from reading other people's posts on the subject.


They count for the purpose of the NYT and USAT lists, even on Amazon.

However, it's pretty obvious to me that doing a pre-order wide and including books that are in KU is asking for trouble and very obviously against TOS, so I agree this might have been a blessing in disguise since it could save those authors from further trouble with Amazon. Sucks to lose the pre-orders and sucks that the first Amazon customer service person was clearly clueless about actual policy, but it would have sucked more for those authors to have their books dumped from KU, lose all their page read money, and possibly have their accounts banned from KU.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

I just refinanced my mortgage. I was confused whether or not the first payment under the new loan would continue to be made via autopay (same bank). I called customer service. The rep said no that I had to make the first payment manually (even though it was set up for autopay). So I had the first payment made manually with her over the phone (a couple days before the payment was due). 

On the due date, the auto payment went through, so the bank took two payments. I called again, I was ticked. The new rep said, sorry, I don't know why that other rep said that because it was wrong. And I had to go through the process of having that other payment returned because we weren't planning on paying more for that month.

It was a pain. Annoying. Frustrating. But customer reps make mistakes all the time. I used to be a CSR for an insurance company, and we made mistakes all the time. Your job is mostly judged on how quickly and how many calls you take during a shift. Now of course, if you're always making mistakes you'll get dinged, but giving out incorrect information happens all the time.

I know it sucks and it's frustrating, and I get very upset when it happens to me as well, but these reps are people and some are better at their jobs than others. I've actually hung up when a rep was obviously clueless and called again and spoke with another rep that was awesome and experiences and took care of my problem without further issues.

So I'm not surprised that a CSR provided incorrect information. And I don't say that to minimize what happened to Jasmine because that is a clusterfudge of bad info and I can imagine how stressful this for her and If you're reading this, I'm sorry it happened to you! Hopefully, it's all sorted out ASAP.

Those terms are tough to interpret as is and unfortunately even if you have one rep saying oh yeah that's fine, another one might say, oh, no, that's wrong which adds frustration on top of frustration!


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Annie B said:


> However, it's pretty obvious to me that doing a pre-order wide and including books that are in KU is asking for trouble and very obviously against TOS, so I agree this might have been a blessing in disguise since it could save those authors from further trouble with Amazon. Sucks to lose the pre-orders and sucks that the first Amazon customer service person was clearly clueless about actual policy, but it would have sucked more for those authors to have their books dumped from KU, lose all their page read money, and possibly have their accounts banned from KU.


The problem is that it is still available wide. As of this morning, it is still available on Kobo, and I count at least 4-5 books in the set that are in KU.


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## treadmikeway (Apr 23, 2016)

Boo to everything about what happened. I'm sorry to hear about all this mess!

You're tough and tenacious, and you'll bounce back from this!


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Google Play seems to consider that a preorder is on sale in their store. At least that's the language used here in the GP user's TOS (bolding mine):



> (c) We will need to cancel your pre-order if the Product *is withdrawn from sale in the store* before it is made available and we reserve the right to cancel your order in the event the price changes before your order is fulfilled.


https://play.google.com/about/play-terms.html


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

ChristinePope said:


> Actually, they don't count on Amazon. They do on Apple and some of the other vendors (can't remember which ones at the moment). But Amazon counts those sales as they go along, which is why pre-orders can have a rank before they're actually on sale. What gets dumped into your account all at once on release day is the payment for those pre-orders.
> 
> This is why people will have pre-orders on Apple and some of the other sites but not on Amazon -- because they want all those sales to hit in the same week.
> 
> At least, that's my understanding from reading other people's posts on the subject.


I'm sorry, but your understanding is wrong. The sales hit the Amazon dashboard on release day (some hit the night before). ALL vendors count a preorder toward rank when the preorder is placed, not just amazon. They all turn preorders into sales on the day of/night before and they all count hitting preorder toward ranking.

Although, we're all going on about this and as far as Jazzy has been told, it has nothing to do with why her book was taken down. Guess we have to wait back to hear what Amazon updates her with.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

ShayneRutherford said:


> It absolutely is. Here's the pertinent part [emphasis is mine]:
> 
> By putting a book up on preorder, you're giving someone other than Amazon the right to distribute your book while still bound by the exclusivity terms of Select.


but you aren't giving them the right to distribute or sell while in KU. You are giving them the right to sell/distribute at a future date when you won't be in KU anymore. Still not the same thing <3 And yes, I'm being pedantic. As I said, I think we can guess what they *mean* and we all agree it's best to just not do it, to be on the safe side, especially as Amazon interprets the TOS as they see fit. But if they want to be 100% clear and use the words to SAY what they mean, they need to specify preorder, as preorder and sale and distribution are all 3 different things, and they are only naming 2 of those 3 things.

sale
sāl/Submit
noun
1.
the exchange of a commodity for money; *the action of selling something*.

pre·or·der
priˈôrdər/
verb

1.
an order for an item that has *not yet been made commercially available*.

dis·trib·ute
dəˈstribyo͞ot/
verb
1.
give shares of (something); *deal out*.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

So . . . . reader/customer person here.

If I see something on pre-order, I do consider it as 'for sale' even if I know that I won't actually get the thing until later. And even if I know that I can change my mind before that delivery date comes. I generally do, however, assume that the delivery _will happen_ unless *I* cancel it, so I'd be a bit peeved, I think, if I got a notice that the item I'd wanted to buy wasn't, after all, going to be available to me.  Maybe disappointed is a better word.

Maybe it's more accurate to think of it as a _promise_ of being 'for sale' with the pre-orderer _promising_ to buy it then. Still, from the point of view of the consumer, you're committing to pay for something the vendor is committing to deliver -- with the caveat that either you or the vendor can cancel the transaction before the release date.

MY beef with pre-orders is what happens if I do a pre-order but then change my mind and cancel it: I never actually get the book, no money is exchanged. But the page on Amazon shows it as having been purchased by me _based on the day I did the original pre-order_. This becomes a problem if the price drops 6 or 7 months after release and I decide to buy it then.  It requires communication with Kindle CS to clear up the issue.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> but you aren't giving them the right to distribute or sell while in KU. You are giving them the right to sell/distribute at a future date. Still not the same thing <3


But you're entering into the contract (to let them distribute) while you're still in Select. Like, if your Select term ends on the 30th of June, but you put your book up for preorder on iTunes on June 15th, you were still in select when you gave iTunes the right to distribute it.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> sale
> sāl/Submit
> noun
> 1.
> ...


Perhaps this is something you should be arguing with Amazon about. Most people here seem to be pretty clear on what the spirit of the TOS means. Now, if this were a law, perhaps you'd have a point and could argue that the semantics don't disallow KU / presales wherever you want. However, this isn't a law. This is a TOS, of which Amazon has the final say.

Personally, I'd think twice about it. There are good ways and bad ways to be on Amazon's radar. This doesn't strike me as one of the former. Interpreting it your way might be grammatically correct, but it still feels like playing with fire to me.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

ShayneRutherford said:


> But you're entering into the contract (to let them distribute) while you're still in Select. Like, if your Select term ends on the 30th of June, but you put your book up for preorder on iTunes on June 15th, you were still in select when you gave iTunes the right to distribute it.


I'm confused: was it a "wide" pre-order containing some material in Select, or is it a Select pre-order containing some material NOT in select -- so currently available wide.

Either one seems problematic to me based on my, admittedly un-studied, understanding of KDP select.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

TheForeverGirlSeries said:


> but you aren't giving them the right to distribute or sell while in KU. You are giving them the right to sell/distribute at a future date when you won't be in KU anymore. Still not the same thing <3 And yes, I'm being pedantic. As I said, I think we can guess what they *mean* and we all agree it's best to just not do it, to be on the safe side, especially as Amazon interprets the TOS as they see fit. But if they want to be 100% clear and use the words to SAY what they mean, they need to specify preorder, as preorder and sale and distribution are all 3 different things, and they are only naming 2 of those 3 things.


I imagine we can all get on board with the idea that _the TOS should be clear to everyone_. If even one informed, reasonable person (and Rebecca obviously counts as one of those) can see room for confusion in the TOS, they should be revised. It'd be absurdly easy to do. How about, "You may not place a KU book on preorder on another site"? It'd be so simple to make this crystal clear, and yet ... 

As with the scamming stuff, my main take-away is that KDP does not have the people, resources, or culture ('cause who knows what the problem is, exactly?) to function as effectively as it should. The weakness shows up in multiple ways.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I'm confused: was it a "wide" pre-order containing some material in Select, or is it a Select pre-order containing some material NOT in select -- so currently available wide.
> 
> Either one seems problematic to me based on my, admittedly un-studied, understanding of KDP select.


It's a wide preorder with books in Select. Amazon has been known to ban accounts for less.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Amazon will always have wiggleroom/vagueness in the TOS. It allows them to control things as they wish.

For those playing along at home: If you think you've found a clever way around the TOS, think again. Amazon's discretion reaches far and wide. You can try to sue them, of course, if you feel they've violated their own terms. But good luck with that.  

If you follow the spirit of the terms, you'll be fine. If you look for loopholes to take advantage of things that are clearly not meant to be, bad things can happen.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

ShayneRutherford said:


> But you're entering into the contract (to let them distribute) while you're still in Select. Like, if your Select term ends on the 30th of June, but you put your book up for preorder on iTunes on June 15th, you were still in select when you gave iTunes the right to distribute it.


the phrasing on that is off. Because that makes it sound like you are agreeing to let them do the distributing while you're in Select. That would be breaking TOS. But agreeing to let them publish is not the same as selling and distributing WHILE IN select. I realize people may interpret it different, and as I said, I get where Amazon would be coming from (Even though that issue is NOT what had Jazzy's book taken down as far as she's been told, so it probably should be it's own thread anyway...). But it would be all to easy for them to use the correct language for this, and yet, they don't.


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## kdiem (Feb 29, 2016)

The situation is a mess. Sorry to have had it happen to you, Jasmine (and other boxed set authors)!

Regardless of blame and TOS terms, I hope Jasmine and the other authors have reassured their respective readers that they can buy the boxed set on the release date (or a revised one), and given them apologies for any inconvenience. Even if it's vague, I think it would be professional and good to let them know something. 

BTW, congrats on the massive preorder number, even if it was cancelled. My prawny brain can't even comprehend it.


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## Jake Kerr (Aug 6, 2014)

> But if they want to be 100% clear


I think there is a common misperception that ToS are meant to clear up confusion and eliminate misunderstanding. They are not. They are there to protect Amazon's interests in the agreement between publisher and Amazon. Often, Amazon will see areas where it is best for them to be flexible. In those instances, they will add language that is purposefully vague. Sometimes they actually add language that is meant to be clear but after-the-fact they realize that it is in their best interest to interpret it differently. In those cases they'll often make conflicting decisions based on different circumstances.

Is this maddening? Yes. Is this avoidable? No. So how do we deal with it?

Well, expecting clarity here is simply not going to happen. Sometimes (usually when there is a big enough outcry) Amazon will issue a clarification, but more often than not you need to just assess what Amazon seems to intend the language to mean. Fighting it is useless. I mean, you could sue them, but I'm not sure that's worth the effort for most of us.

I think the common advice you see here on KBoards again and again is to be prepared to get slapped if you are playing with areas where there is ambiguity, and when you are slapped you immediately go into apology and "how can I fix it" mode. Hell, this can happen when we think there IS clarity (see my comment above about after-the-fact re-interpretation). Again, you kind of have to just roll over and take it.

I think it is reasonable to approach Amazon with a strategy of "ask forgiveness not permission" as they do seem to be somewhat open to accepting forgiveness. But that requires serious back-pedaling, and you definitely need to assess the possible damage of what will happen if you get knocked down when assessing whether an "ask forgiveness" model is worth the risk. It's all part of risk management.

As to you, Jazzy, I'm really bummed out. A very large majority of us, I'm sure, push various limits. Remember a bunch of us having to re-do our keywords when Kindle Unlimited was tagged as a problem. Or when this happened or that happened. Those alarms are common and all part of assessing what we can do. That they are often surprises is what is so difficult, and I completely sympathize that Jazzy is the one that is subject to this surprise. It really does suck.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> I imagine we can all get on board with the idea that _the TOS should be clear to everyone_. If even one informed, reasonable person (and Rebecca obviously counts as one of those) can see room for confusion in the TOS, they should be revised. It'd be absurdly easy to do. How about, "You may not place a KU book on preorder on another site"? It'd be so simple to make this crystal clear, and yet ...
> 
> As with the scamming stuff, my main take-away is that KDP does not have the people, resources, or culture ('cause who knows what the problem is, exactly?) to function as effectively as it should. The weakness shows up in multiple ways.


Yes, exactly. I mean, I'm not arguing that people SHOULD do this. I'm not arguing that Amazon probably means what others here are saying -- I'm POSITIVE that was their intention, in fact. I'm also not arguing that people should use this to try to get around anything. I agree Amazon will do what they are doing to do, based on what they mean or even based on what they didn't mean but feel like doing. I agree with what most of what the "other side" is saying here.... All I'm saying is technically, if I were being pedantic, that's just not what their TOS says. Doesn't mean people should act based on what it says, but since Amazon ALSO gives people crap for NOT taking their TOS literally where OTHER things are concerned, to then expect people to know what they mean is a bit silly, when being 100% clear would be so easy - as you illustrated above


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> So . . . . reader/customer person here.
> 
> If I see something on pre-order, I do consider it as 'for sale' even if I know that I won't actually get the thing until later. And even if I know that I can change my mind before that delivery date comes. I generally do, however, assume that the delivery _will happen_ unless *I* cancel it, so I'd be a bit peeved, I think, if I got a notice that the item I'd wanted to buy wasn't, after all, going to be available to me.  Maybe disappointed is a better word.
> 
> Maybe it's more accurate to think of it as a _promise_ of being 'for sale' with the pre-orderer _promising_ to buy it then. Still, from the point of view of the consumer, you're committing to pay for something the vendor is committing to deliver -- with the caveat that either you or the vendor can cancel the transaction before the release date.


Interestingly, if you do an order of a non-book item (don't know if this is true of books) that isn't currently available, they'll debit your gift card balance if you have one at the time you make the order.



> MY beef with pre-orders is what happens if I do a pre-order but then change my mind and cancel it: I never actually get the book, no money is exchanged. But the page on Amazon shows it as having been purchased by me _based on the day I did the original pre-order_. This becomes a problem if the price drops 6 or 7 months after release and I decide to buy it then.  It requires communication with Kindle CS to clear up the issue.


I'm not sure I've ever cancelled a pre-order. I didn't realize they did that. Interesting. I may have to try it some day. 

Betsy


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

It's a risky game of chicken to play with Amazon on the Select/KU front. They've shown they're inclined to smash first and not ask questions later.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

jakedfw said:


> I think there is a common misperception that ToS are meant to clear up confusion and eliminate misunderstanding. They are not. They are there to protect Amazon's interests in the agreement between publisher and Amazon. Often, Amazon will see areas where it is best for them to be flexible. In those instances, they will add language that is purposefully vague. Sometimes they actually add language that is meant to be clear but after-the-fact they realize that it is in their best interest to interpret it differently. In those cases they'll often make conflicting decisions based on different circumstances.
> 
> Is this maddening? Yes. Is this avoidable? No. So how do we deal with it?
> 
> ...


And I agree with this. The issue is, when there is ambiguity, which way should a person throw their assumption? I suppose the answer is: whichever way would be worse for you and better for Amazon. But if something would clearly be better for Amazon, it also stands to reason that might be the term they don't want to be vague about. But it's Amazon. Amazon will do what Amazon will do.

That said, I won't villainize Jazzy for actions. She didn't do anything intentionally wrong with keywords or technically wrong regarding KU's TOS. It was an honest mistake on the one front and the other thing being discussed here isn't the reason she was given. Also, I previously had an issue with Amazon similar to this, and eventually, a higher up CALLED ME TO ***APOLOGIZE*** and told me the KU team made a mistake and handled things wrong. This wasn't a CS rep. This was their higher up. So we're over here saying Jazzy is wrong, but for all we know, KU supervisors will be calling to apologize to her next, telling her it was handled wrong on THEIR end.

Especially since everything she did was willing to make changes they requested. She even made the change after she was told she didn't have to make it...and then her book still got taken down. I don't see how this makes sense to anyone. It's upsetting customers and creating more work for Amazon. If she was blatantly ignoring rules and was warned and continued to ignore them, sure. But an honest mistake *that was fixed* then resulting in doing something that will upset customers is not in anyone's best interest, Amazon included.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

NeedWant said:


> A lot of people here call out erotica authors for keyword stuffing, but are silent when it comes to other genres. Why?


I think the answer to that is pretty obvious.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Monique said:


> It's a risky game of chicken to play with Amazon on the Select/KU front. They've shown they're inclined to smash first and not ask questions later.


For once, we agree. I think everyone here agrees on this front. Although, that's still not what caused Jazzy's book to be taken down as far as Amazon has told her. I spoke to Jazzy last night and she's also going to discuss with authors about swapping out titles, so I'm sure once the venders update it will reveal those KU titles aren't being offered on other sites. Which again, still isn't why her book was taken down as far as she was told.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

jakedfw said:


> I think there is a common misperception that ToS are meant to clear up confusion and eliminate misunderstanding. They are not. They are there to protect Amazon's interests in the agreement between publisher and Amazon. Often, Amazon will see areas where it is best for them to be flexible. In those instances, they will add language that is purposefully vague. Sometimes they actually add language that is meant to be clear but after-the-fact they realize that it is in their best interest to interpret it differently. In those cases they'll often make conflicting decisions based on different circumstances.





Monique said:


> Amazon will always have wiggleroom/vagueness in the TOS. It allows them to control things as they wish.


Oh. That sounds about right, actually. Sigh.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I think everyone understands the issue as Jazzy explained it in her OP.

However, as frequently happens here, other questions arise in the course of a discussion and the issue of the timing of the box set pre-order with KU and with going wide has come up--and that discussion continues.  Which I think has been useful to our membership as there obviously are different opinions on what is allowed under Amazon's ToS.

Betsy


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> It's a wide preorder with books in Select. Amazon has been known to ban accounts for less.


This is from memory, but I don't believe they ban accounts for violating KU, they just get banned from KU. Maybe take the unpaid KU payments?


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> So why, then, did a rep tell Jazzy her subtitle was okay? That should not have happened. Apparently, someone thought the must-appear-on-the-book's-cover rule actually meant something more like "anything's okay so long as it appears on the book's cover," which is probably what Jazzy thought too. It's perfectly understandable that authors sometimes misunderstand the rules, but the same thing cannot be said of KDP reps. They pretty clearly are not being adequately trained. And adequate training would be a lot easier if the rules were laid out in greater detail, with potential gray areas explicitly addressed.
> 
> And while they're at it, how about making consequences consistent and reasonable? Cancelling 1,800 preorders because the word "bestselling" appears in the subtitle? Really? Unless the claim is false and can therefore be seen as having misled the preorderers (and that's not the case here), cancelling preorders seems weirdly draconian to me.


SO much this.


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## Jake Kerr (Aug 6, 2014)

> The issue is, when there is ambiguity, which way should a person throw their assumption?


This is really a question of risk management and has no specific answer. It is unique to everyone. Some people can tolerate more risk. Some people have less to lose. The track record may show no activity on something for years, so it seems safe even if it is on the edge of acceptance... but then it isn't.

I personally feel that managing this kind of risk is one of the things that separates successful self-publishers from the unsuccessful ones.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

jakedfw said:


> This is really a question of risk management and has no specific answer. It is unique to everyone. Some people can tolerate more risk. Some people have less to lose. The track record may show no activity on something for years, so it seems safe even if it is on the edge of acceptance... but then it isn't.
> 
> I personally feel that managing this kind of risk is one of the things that separates successful self-publishers from the unsuccessful ones.


Oh, I agree there, I just mean, the ambiguity can make it unclear WHICH is the risk in some cases. Maybe not in the case of KU, but there's something where it's "Well you should have assumed _______" and "Well you should NOT have assumed __________" - How do you know when making an assumption is good and when making an assumption is bad? As I said, the only way I can think to handle Amazon ambiguity is ask "What is in amazon's best interest" and do that, and hope you guess their best interest correctly.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Interestingly, if you do an order of a non-book item (don't know if this is true of books) that isn't currently available, they'll debit your gift card balance if you have one at the time you make the order.


I noticed that when I ordered my Oasis -- which I think was technically a pre-order since it wasn't shipping until at least a couple of weeks later to anyone. In the past, though, if you use up the GC before the thing is released/dispatched, the resultant receipt shows how much ended up getting charged to a card. So it's like they shift the payment between order and delivery depending on GC balance. And if you cancel the order, the GC is re-credited immediately.



> I'm not sure I've ever cancelled a pre-order. I didn't realize they did that. Interesting. I may have to try it some day.
> 
> Betsy


I did once and it's weird. It was an impulse buy that, after thinking, I decided I would read from the library or when it got down to at least paper back price. If I go to the book page now, it says I already bought it and won't let me buy it again!  It's not gotten cheap enough for me to actually want to buy it again, so I haven't pursued it. And it's not available in any of my libraries so I can't see how that would work either -- I've borrowed things from the library before and when I get sent to the kindle page it says I already have it.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I think everyone understands the issue as Jazzy explained it in her OP.
> 
> However, as frequently happens here, other questions arise in the course of a discussion and the issue of the timing of the box set pre-order with KU and with going wide has come up--and that discussion continues. Which I think has been useful to our membership as there obviously are different opinions on what is allowed under Amazon's ToS.
> 
> Betsy


I agree. But where comments are essentially saying "Well that's what happens when you do XYZ" and that's not why what happened happened, it's a bit...off. Her book wasn't pulled for that reason, but thanks to this discussion, when the book is back up she will be careful to change the titles listed on other sites so that people here aren't reporting her and getting her in trouble for something different. It's definitely GOOD this discussion happened for that reason, so she can be proactive, and so we can all realize that people can see how to stay on the safe side of Amazon's ambiguity.


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## North Star Plotting (Jul 11, 2015)

Sandy Raven said:


> Holy crap. Sometimes I wonder if the left hand knows what the right hand is doing.


It's been made clear, again and again, that they absolutely have no idea what the other is doing.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Everything I have ever ordered online, amazon included, did not bill on preorder. Some things that are *backordered* have sent an authorization request when I ordered, then it's refunded, and then CHARGED when it ships. (I know, because this has made my account go negative before, thinking I paid for it already, but then finding out it was an authorization, not a charge, and that the true charge didn't go through until shipping, which is when they considered the sale to be made).


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> This is a TOS, of which Amazon has the final say.
> 
> Personally, I'd think twice about it. There are good ways and bad ways to be on Amazon's radar. This doesn't strike me as one of the former. Interpreting it your way might be grammatically correct, but it still feels like playing with fire to me.


Jazzy, I've come late to this thread. I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I know it's been devastating.

Rick has given you good advice. You don't want to poke a tiger in the eye. Amazon has the power to make your life miserable for as long as you publish books on their website.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Alan Petersen said:


> But customer reps make mistakes all the time. I used to be a CSR for an insurance company, and we made mistakes all the time. Your job is mostly judged on how quickly and how many calls you take during a shift. Now of course, if you're always making mistakes you'll get dinged, but giving out incorrect information happens all the time.
> 
> I know it sucks and it's frustrating, and I get very upset when it happens to me as well, but these reps are people and some are better at their jobs than others. I've actually hung up when a rep was obviously clueless and called again and spoke with another rep that was awesome and experiences and took care of my problem without further issues.
> 
> ...


I used to work for a major money manager (just under $1 trillion under management). I'd sometimes have occasion to visit the floor where our reps provided phone support. I was always amazed at how much inaccurate information was given out. I'm not talking about account details, where the consequences of relaying bad info are minimal. I'm talking about the laws governing retirement contributions, capital gains taxes, write-offs, etc.

Line up 10 reps and you'd receive three different answers to the same question. It was startling, and a little frightening.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I think person A and person B arguing about whether person C is jealous is pretty ridiculous. Let's put a stop to that right now and continue with the otherwise useful discussion, eh?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Just removed a half dozen posts after asking people to chill. Y'all need a time out.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

And I just removed a bunch more that responded to a comment I coulda sworn I had removed earlier today.  I apologize that I apparently didn't hit "save" after doing the edit--it would have prevented a bunch of hostility and recrimination.

Peace people.  Be kind to each other.  We'll discuss whether to unlock.

Betsy


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