# Gutter-mouth!



## zizekpress (Mar 9, 2011)

Does it put you off a book if the character swears?

Or if it's in first person, swears inside his head?


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## TeresaDAmario (Jan 30, 2011)

As long as it fits the character, and as long as it's not overdone, no, it doesn't bother me and all.  To me it's better than the "He swore" or "swearing, he kicked the wall".  Swear words are very "specific" to character, and it tells you alot about them depending on WHICH Swear words they use when angry.  Now if he throws the F-Bomb every other word, that would be off putting.


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## zizekpress (Mar 9, 2011)

TeresaDAmario said:


> As long as it fits the character, and as long as it's not overdone, no, it doesn't bother me and all. To me it's better than the "He swore" or "swearing, he kicked the wall". Swear words are very "specific" to character, and it tells you alot about them depending on WHICH Swear words they use when angry. Now if he throws the F-Bomb every other word, that would be off putting.


Agreed. They're not books, but I always liked the way swearing was used in 'Battlestar Galactica' [Frack as a substitute for f*ck]...and on 'Firefly', which was set about a hundred years into the future, i think, and when they swore they used unsubtitled Chinese...very clever way of getting around the issue of using swearing.

I would say that if a book is in first person, and the character gets angry and doesn't swear then it kills some of the reality of the book for me.


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## Jane Fancher (Mar 12, 2011)

It's all part of the character and the viewpoint voice. It has to fit. Some characters, it's jarring if they don't swear!

I admit, as part of the editing process, I make a final pass through a book and examine every use of the f-bomb and make certain it's justified. I've even done it for the "lesser" terms. I write an initial draft without ever thinking about it. I need to sort of "channel" characters and thinking too much about language gets in the way, but depending on my mood (esp if I'm having serious problems with the computer) a character's language can go seriously into the gutter.   That needs to be reconsidered! 

The f-word in my fantasy world is rare...must be because they don't have computers!   But when it occurs, it's pointed and shocking and for a definite reason. Again...not something that I think about as I write, but in that series, when it occurs, I stop right there and ask Why? Only because it is that rare. The "lesser" terms have their place and curses are much more specific to the culture. I see the 'NetWalkers universe as a direct extrapolation of our own and basic cursing hasn't changed much in a loooooong time!


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## zizekpress (Mar 9, 2011)

Jane Fancher said:


> It's all part of the character and the viewpoint voice. It has to fit. Some characters, it's jarring if they don't swear!
> 
> I admit, as part of the editing process, I make a final pass through a book and examine every use of the f-bomb and make certain it's justified. I've even done it for the "lesser" terms. I write an initial draft without ever thinking about it. I need to sort of "channel" characters and thinking too much about language gets in the way, but depending on my mood (esp if I'm having serious problems with the computer) a character's language can go seriously into the gutter.  That needs to be reconsidered!
> 
> The f-word in my fantasy world is rare...must be because they don't have computers!  But when it occurs, it's pointed and shocking and for a definite reason. Again...not something that I think about as I write, but in that series, when it occurs, I stop right there and ask Why? Only because it is that rare. The "lesser" terms have their place and curses are much more specific to the culture. I see the 'NetWalkers universe as a direct extrapolation of our own and basic cursing hasn't changed much in a loooooong time!


Hi Jane, can I ask if your books are usually in first or third person?


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Unless it's really excessive and unnecessary, it doesn't bother me.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Anything but the mildest profanity is very off-putting to me. I've crossed a number of authors off my "buy" list because of it.

I know that many authors claim they "need" to include it in the name of realism, but I reject that idea completely.


Mike


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## huwcol (Mar 8, 2011)

I can't say it bothers me one way or the other _if it's appropriate_. By that, I mean, it might seem odd if Miss Marple in an Agatha Christie story suddenly started F-ing and Blinding over a plate of scones and a cup of tea. But it would seem equally odd if a novel about soccer hooligans or mercenaries omitted swearing. To do so would destroy the suspension of disbelief which an author asks his or her reader to engage in. It's all a matter of tone. If you have the characters fully in your head they will only swear when it is right for them to do so.


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## Thumper (Feb 26, 2009)

Doesn't bother me if it's appropriate to the character and story. I wold be bothered more by an unrealistic portrayal of a character you just _know _would swear IRL, but doesn't on paper...


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## Malweth (Oct 18, 2009)

It doesn't bother me, but I couldn't watch Pulp Fiction. It's not the swearing, it's the coherence!


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## Christine Kersey (Feb 13, 2011)

I'm always pleasantly surprised when a book has no swearing in it. I'll often stop reading a book if the f-bomb is dropped too often (like every other page). Mild swearing doesn't bother me as much. In my own writing, there is no swearing. I don't personally swear and most of my friends don't either, so to me it is realistic that not everyone swears.


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## LiteraryGrrrl (Jan 24, 2011)

huwcol said:


> I can't say it bothers me one way or the other _if it's appropriate_. By that, I mean, it might seem odd if Miss Marple in an Agatha Christie story suddenly started F-ing and Blinding over a plate of scones and a cup of tea. But it would seem equally odd if a novel about soccer hooligans or mercenaries omitted swearing. To do so would destroy the suspension of disbelief which an author asks his or her reader to engage in. It's all a matter of tone. If you have the characters fully in your head they will only swear when it is right for them to do so.


Love, love, love this imagery. 

Shana


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

I love profanity when it's funny, in that very British and silly fashion. 

I don't like angry profanity.


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## theraven (Dec 30, 2009)

How often is more of the issue for me rather than if it's used at all. A couple of swear words here and there in order to establish character, setting, the world the author is creating doesn't bother me. An overuse of swearing will make me stop reading. If a character uses a swear word as a noun, pronoun, adjective, adverb, etc. (I see this particulary with the f-word) then I'm done. For me, it distracts from the story and comes more about the use of a shock word then the plot.

The only time I don't like swear words at all is in middle-grade and YA fiction. I know teens use it but I don't like to encourage it or 'see' it encouraged.


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## SamIam (Mar 3, 2011)

It doesn't bother me too much, some characters are just that way


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## RobertMarda (Oct 19, 2010)

I dislike reading swear words and if I learn before I buy a book that there is at least one swear word in it then I don't buy the book.  If I find a swear word in a book after I buy it and it is one of the most minor I often keep reading.  If that happens to much then I stop.  If it is one of the swear words that offends me a lot then when I come to it I stop reading.

The one down side I've found with e-books is that I can't cross out the swear word.  With a few of my paper backs I have simply crossed out or modified the swear words so that it is no longer a swear word and in that way I can still enjoy the book when I read it again.  I can't do that with e-books.

Once I know an author includes swear words in their books I won't buy their books.  It makes it harder for me to find books I will read.  I have found there are authors that don't find the need to put swear words in their books.  Too me, realism does not suffer when there are no swear words in books.


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## Patrick Skelton (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't care for too much swearing in fiction.  Nor do I don't include much swearing in my novels.  A few mild swears when the scene calls for emotion, but nothing more.


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## RobynB (Jan 4, 2011)

So glad you posted about this zizekpress. It's something I'm dealing with in my WIP. Like one of the others above, I allow it to come out during the drafting process...and now I'm taking a hard look at it. I've been exorcising many of the f-bombs knowing it will turn some readers off...but then again, because I do think the cussing is character appropriate in this case (it's first person), I'm wondering if I'm being true to the character.

To use an analogy from film...I don't believe _Erin Brokovich_ would have been the same without her gutter mouth. (I also saw _The King's Speech_ this past weekend...I won't ruin it for people who haven't seen it, but for those who have, I'm wondering if anyone was offended by the scene that let the f-bombs fly?)

That said (and yes, I'm on three different tangents here, forgive me), way, way, WAY back in the day, I used to do stand-up comedy (don't ask me to say something funny). Some of my mentors told me not to rely too heavily on cussing or dick jokes because even though they'd likely resort in an immediate laugh or chuckle, they'd be a "cheap" laugh...and if I ever wanted to make it to the big leagues (like Carson and The Tonight Show...yes, I'm dating myself), then I'd need a squeaky clean act. Of course, today you have Kathy Griffin. (Probably a good thing I got out of the biz, eh?)


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## zizekpress (Mar 9, 2011)

Robyn B, i agree about Erin Brokovich. Can you imagine that film if she didn't swear?

I think if the novel is in first person then there should be some swearing. The whole point of the story is you're reading his thoughts, so why wouldn't he swear? In third person there's not as much need, unless you've got Brokovich as your narrator.

Also, I find most dialogue unrealistic if there is no swearing at all.

Though if it's just a normal scene and you've got a character just coming home and saying 'what the f*ck are we having for dinner?' 'I'm going to f*cking bed', anything like that then it's a problem.


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## GayleC (Feb 16, 2011)

I tend to let my characters talk the way they talk, mostly. In my debut mystery, I had a couple of really rough characters, both of whom I tried to tame, but they each ended up saying the F-word once. It was, I guess, a compromise with how much they WANTED to say it.

In the follow-up novel, my character is dealing with the upper crust of society. No one is swearing, for some reason, which makes me pretty happy.


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## Marc Horne (Feb 23, 2011)

I think that as long as the genre is not intended for kids, and if it is driven by character, swearing can be a good thing.

Characters in fiction do and witness all kinds of deplorable things [I'm looking at you, Miss Marple]

I actually went and downloaded Zizek Press' book Ljubljana Witch after reading this thread.

That's an interesting use of foul language because you have this realistic character entering this fantasy world and kind of despoiling it with the leftovers of everyday life, so the swearing in the 1st person narration is thematically driven. It's a really good read by the way if you want some fantasy, absurdism and a totally cliche-free lead character.


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

I miss George Carlin.


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## DanDillard (Mar 10, 2011)

Characters should be characters. 
People swear. If it suits the moment and the setting, I say: GO BLUE!
Sometimes, in a comedy or an extreme moment, it might make sense for an otherwise "proper" person to swear. A nun, perhaps?

If it's overdone, it can be distracting and take the reader out of the story. I don't get offended by anything, but I've read stories and seen films... even heard conversations where foul language is used so much, you literally start counting it in your head and lose track of the storyline or message... In that case it's detrimental.
These are just my [email protected]#$ opinions.


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

I've wrestled with this one a lot. I'd like to say I don't judge the characters I read too much, but I can't really recall ever running across a truly profane narrator. Part of that might be the genres I read (most heavily fantasy).

In the same way, there's not much in the way of swearing in my own fantasy novels, but the ones I've written in the real world (which tend to deal with end-of-the-world-style catastrophes) end up finding at least a little bit of it.


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## DeAngelo (Mar 14, 2011)

I think there's a total of maybe 10 swears in my book. As far as I'm concerned they all fit the characters/situations they show up in. I've made a few sells but no reviews yet so I don't know what other people's opinions are on the subject. But to answer your question; I'm actually put off by books that tiptoe around anything "offensive" just to be P.C., with the exception of children's/YA novels obviously.


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## zizekpress (Mar 9, 2011)

Aaron Pogue said:


> I've wrestled with this one a lot. I'd like to say I don't judge the characters I read too much, but I can't really recall ever running across a truly profane narrator. Part of that might be the genres I read (most heavily fantasy).
> 
> In the same way, there's not much in the way of swearing in my own fantasy novels, but the ones I've written in the real world (which tend to deal with end-of-the-world-style catastrophes) end up finding at least a little bit of it.


If it's the apocalypse, and the characters aren't in a work situation, then there has to be swearing, surely...it's like in action films where the main guy gets thrown through a wall, gets back up and brushes some dust off his jacket. No hurt means no reality.


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

zizekpress said:


> If it's the apocalypse, and the characters aren't in a work situation, then there has to be swearing, surely...it's like in action films where the main guy gets thrown through a wall, gets back up and brushes some dust off his jacket. No hurt means no reality.


Exactly, right? I don't ever really go overboard with it, and the language a character uses is often part of the characterization, but it has its place (in some genres, anyway).

I've got a good friend who just finished a Christian fantasy novel, and she made up "fudgespeak" for it -- her characters (college students on a Christian university campus) tend to substitute the names of baked goods for swear words. I laughed out loud the first time the protagonist exclaimed, "What the truffle torte!"


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

> They're not books, but I always liked the way swearing was used in 'Battlestar Galactica' [Frack as a substitute for f*ck]


Totally agree!

I have no problem with swearing in books as long as they're written for adults. Stephen King's characters swear a blue streak, and it's never bothered me.

In my YA books, my characters don't swear above what's allowed on network TV, and even then, it's rare. I never had given it a thought before, but last year, I sold a story to _Intergalactic Medicine Show_, and my editor pointed out my one f-bomb and told me, "No way!" (because the magazine holds to a PG-13 level). I had completely forgotten that the word was there, and I was actually pretty embarrassed. So now, I've been extra careful about the words my characters use.


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## anguabell (Jan 9, 2011)

If it is appropriate for characterization and used intelligently as a tool for narrative, I don't really mind profanity in the books written in my non-native languages, as it hardly triggers any emotional response. It is a bit different in films - I think we react differently to a spoken word.



Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> I love profanity when it's funny, in that very British and silly fashion.
> 
> I don't like angry profanity.


This is a very good point. Context is everything.


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## kansaskyle (Sep 14, 2010)

Having served in the Marine Corps, I've heard lots of cussing. It is something that took me years to break the habit of doing. While I read it in books, I do find it a bit distracting.

I think this question came up on these boards recently, and someone had a great post about cussing being overdone in comparison to way some people speak. If you were to include dialogue from a typical young person today (especially a sports figure it seems), they would talk something like this:

_"You know..., the uh... quick brown fox, you know..., uh... jumped over the uh... lazy you know... brown dog."_

That would get distracting way to quickly to be readable, but I notice that authors don't seem to mind constantly throwing in profanities even though they will filter out all the 'uhs', 'ums', and 'you knows'.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

Thumper said:


> Doesn't bother me if it's appropriate to the character and story. I wold be bothered more by an unrealistic portrayal of a character you just _know _would swear IRL, but doesn't on paper...


Took the words right out of my mouth, dagnabit!


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

I still miss George Carlin, but honestly, when I started getting emails from kids reading my books-- it never occurred to me that kids would-- I stopped using profanity in my scifi books because it was easy to not do it.  No so easy to do in military thrillers.  Like sex scenes, if it serves a purpose, fine, but I've found for me, it was lazy writing at times.  So frack it, I try not to use it


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## Larry45 (Feb 7, 2011)

I think it depends on the genre you like to read. I like mystery, suspense and crime novels, and the characters that work well in that genre would not fit if they _didn't_ swear. And, I'm sure your own personal moral standards come into play as well. I'm fairly foul-mouthed myself, so I enjoy and expect it in the books I read. The same goes with movies. If a tough big-city cop didn't swear, he just wouldn't fit my preconceived idea of a tough big-city cop. That's the great thing about books; there is always something for everyone...


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## Mehryinett (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't really like swearing much myself in daily life, but in books it's different. Like in JD Salinger's Catcher in the Rye, there's quite a lot of swearing, including f-words, and it was written in a much more conservative age. It just depends so much on the book and who the character is. I mean, one of my (unpublished) stories has a woman saying about fifty f-words in less than 4,000 words. (And not about sex either  )It's just how she came out, I don't know why. Most of them wouldn't say 'poo' if you goosed them.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

kansaskyle said:


> _"You know..., the uh... quick brown fox, you know..., uh... jumped over the uh... lazy you know... brown dog."_
> 
> That would get distracting way to quickly to be readable, but I notice that authors don't seem to mind constantly throwing in profanities even though they will filter out all the 'uhs', 'ums', and 'you knows'.


Exactly. The "reality" justification by authors for using profanity is pretty much bogus, IMHO.

Mike


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## AnneKAlbert (Dec 7, 2010)

I have no problem with swearing when I'm the reader, as long as it fits the character and situation. However, if it's done for shock value, or ad nauseum, the author may loose me as a reader. Time is precious. I'm getting more and more selective on how I spend it. And with whom.  

As for my own books? I find alternative ways to express swear words. Not so hard, really.


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## Alice Y. Yeh (Jul 14, 2010)

DanDillard said:


> Characters should be characters.
> People swear. If it suits the moment and the setting, I say: *GO BLUE*!


As a U of M student, that made me happy.

Anyway, I agree with many others that swearing is fine IF IT IS IN CHARACTER. There are ways of leaving it up to the reader's imagination, however, by describing the act instead of spelling it out.

What does bother me is the increasing use of swear words in YA fiction. If it is intended for the upper end of the range, it's not such a big deal, but I've come across books that are written at the middle grade level with f-bombs and excrement-happy terms and wondered what on earth they're doing there. Perhaps it's prudish, but their presence in that level of reading makes me uncomfortable.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

Honestly, yes.  Sometimes it's fine, a 'Precision F-Strike'--as the trope would have it--can be VERY effective.  Some of my favourite moments come from those.  But casual swearing is a big turn-off for me, in books and in real life.


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## Averydebow (Jan 20, 2011)

As many others have said, it wholly depends on the setting and characters for me.  I have no problem reading any word invented by the human mind. As I deal in words, I find each one unique and beautiful in its own way--a part of the whole.  So, no single word offends me, even if it is meant to.  But, I will become irritated at the overuse of the F-bomb just as easily as I would any other repetitive word.  If I can look at a page and see multiples of any word jumping out at me, I become distracted--like right now I keep seeing the word "word" on this post and it's annoying me.    

My first novel has a punk rock nihilist for a main character.  She curses.  It would be weird if she didn't.  I don't worry about driving away readers with it because those that wouldn't read the book for cursing would most certainly be much more offended by later content.  If I look at it that way it's a nice little warning flag for them to put it down and go find something more suited to their tastes.  Later on I might have a problem trying to attract those same readers to another of my books that has no cursing (it's not a mandatory thing for me), but that's just the price to pay for choosing the cursing path, I suppose. I'm fine with it.  Lots of authors in the sea, and all that.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Haven't there been a few threads on this? A perennial discussion. Maybe books should have ratings like movies, PG-13 for language, sexuality, partial nudity, thematic content.


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## A. Rosaria (Sep 12, 2010)

I use swearing in dialog. In Finitum, it's mostly one person that swears, but he got a good reason to, they all got reason to, their whole world is crumbling down. No person wouldn't befoul his mouth when the shit hits the fan.


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## patrickt (Aug 28, 2010)

There are some very strange posts here. I object to racist language but can you imagine reading a novel with James Earl Ray, the assassin of Martin Luther King, referring to blacks as blacks or Afro-Americans? I don't think so. And there are characters and situations where I would not believe a character who didn't curse. Imagine a police officer arresting a man who just shot his partner and saying, "Up against the wall, Sir."

I'm sure those that would cross out "bad words" can find books to read but for me there are no bad words. If they're appropriate to the character and the situation they're fine words.


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## Averydebow (Jan 20, 2011)

Jon Olson said:


> Maybe books should have ratings like movies, PG-13 for language, sexuality, partial nudity, thematic content.


That's a very slippery slope, my friend. So far, books have managed to avoid the incessant policing of content endemic in this country. They are the last true form of free speech. As soon as a rating is chucked on them, there goes the whole shebang. Suddenly authors are forced by nervous publishers to alter their works to make it fit into a "friendly" rating. Indie authors are refused the right to publish based on... What? An automated scan of their novel that finds too many incidents of the word "f**k?" I don't know if that latter option is even viable, but you get my drift. Supervision of content equals severely curtailed freedom. I, for one, hope it never comes to that.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I disagree with "Supervision of content equals severely curtailed freedom." 

BUT, I don't see a need for ratings.  You can pick up a paper book and read the cover flap or back cover write up.  You look on Amazon and read the same thing.  You can skim the first few pages in a bookstore or by sampling on Kindle, to see if the writing and/or content appeals to you.  That's pretty much all I need to know if I want to read a book!


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## dmburnett (Feb 4, 2011)

I think it depends on the character.  If the character is a tough kid from the streets, then yes it fits the character.  If the character is a high school student in the suburbs, I prefer  to keep it clean (even though high school kids swear like sailors).  It all depends on how the character uses it.  Stephen King or Anne Rice are good examples of swearing staying in character.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Averydebow said:


> That's a very slippery slope, my friend. So far, books have managed to avoid the incessant policing of content endemic in this country. They are the last true form of free speech. As soon as a rating is chucked on them, there goes the whole shebang. Suddenly authors are forced by nervous publishers to alter their works to make it fit into a "friendly" rating. Indie authors are refused the right to publish based on... What? An automated scan of their novel that finds too many incidents of the word "f**k?" I don't know if that latter option is even viable, but you get my drift. Supervision of content equals severely curtailed freedom. I, for one, hope it never comes to that.


I was kidding, and I'm not your friend.


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## miss_fletcher (Oct 25, 2010)

People curse. It's how some express themselves. It happens in real life, and so it makes perfect sense when it comes to character development for profanity to make an appearance IF the character truly is the kind that would swear.

I do not understand why people would stop reading a book because there were cuss words.

Fudge is a profanity if used in the right context. So is sugar (I am fond of both substitutes as I think it is unladylike to curse in public), but I bet if I wrote a book using these substitutes instead of just saying the words they represented it would be bloody annoying.

A good book emulates real life. The good _and_ the bad is what makes a character interesting to read. Cursing may be bad, but can make the right character good.


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## huwcol (Mar 8, 2011)

A book may be dangerous for the ideas it contains rather than for any specific words used in the expression of those ideas.


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## zizekpress (Mar 9, 2011)

Example of good swearing - Steve Martin in 'Planes, trains and automobiles'...tolerant for most of the film, then he gets refused a car...bang!


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

zizekpress said:


> Example of good swearing - Steve Martin in 'Planes, trains and automobiles'...tolerant for most of the film, then he gets refused a car...bang!


That's a great example, because it's the moment in the film where he finally reaches his breaking point. Excellent use of swearing.


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## Julie Christensen (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm put off by swearing in books.  I think there are times when it works, but a lot of times it seems unnecessary and therefore crass.  One example that comes to mind is Julia and Julia.  I swear myself, but I was so put off by the swearing in that book - it just seemed so pointless, that I got tired of the narrator's voice very quickly and ended up not even finishing the book.


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## Averydebow (Jan 20, 2011)

Jon Olson said:


> I was kidding, and I'm not your friend.


My apologies for offending you. The joke obviously didn't telegraph to me--as my "friendly" greeting to lighten the tone of my comment clearly didn't telegraph to you.


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## Paul Levine (May 14, 2010)

I've had readers tell me they've stopped reading one of my books because of curse words.

Can't worry about it.  Realism demands dialogue true to the character.

Try to imagine "The Friends of Eddie Coyle" without swearing.

Paul Levine


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

Kind of funny to be discussing profanity on a site that automatically edits profanity if you use it.  Wonder who decided that and why.  Frack it.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

jmiked said:


> Exactly. The "reality" justification by authors for using profanity is pretty much bogus, IMHO.


OK, I'll bite. Why do YOU think that authors put profanity in their work? What do you think is their real motivation?


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## spiritualtramp (Feb 3, 2011)

The notion that using profanity is "lazy" seems odd to me. While I don't personally swear except under times of some duress, most people I know drop the f-bomb or other such words from time to time. Even if you use it "a lot" I don't think it's a crutch per se. Maybe if you're trying to do it to be edgy on purpose I could see that and it would probably fail because the writing would be bad.

Two more movie examples that wouldn't be the same without swears; Boondock Saints and Insomnia. Both had a lot of profanity and it made sense in both. Let the characters and situation drive it.

In closing, comparing swearing to "uhs" and "umms" also strikes me as weird. Those sorts of verbal place holders aren't unique to teens (record yourself talking sometime) and can actually be lightly used in dialog to good effect, but even if you omit them completely it should be because they carry no meaning whereas profanity does.


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## kansaskyle (Sep 14, 2010)

spiritualtramp said:


> In closing, comparing swearing to "uhs" and "umms" also strikes me as weird. Those sorts of verbal place holders aren't unique to teens (record yourself talking sometime) and can actually be lightly used in dialog to good effect, but even if you omit them completely it should be because they carry no meaning whereas profanity does.


I agree that some profanity is used to emphasize things, show anger, etc.; however, I've been around people that use profanity as a verbal filler just like someone else would use "uh" and "um". They literally cannot speak without putting in some kind of profanity.

Rhett's famous statement, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" is a whole lot different than reading every sentence that contains a F-bomb or some other profanity.

I am much more tolerant of strategically placed profanity than I am of the verbal filler kind mentioned above.


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## Larry45 (Feb 7, 2011)

I totally agree with Paul Levine - "Realism demands dialogue true to the character."  If you choose to read a genre that contains rough characters, then you should expect and appreciate the rough language.  I have no sympathy for the reader that chooses to read a hard-core crime novel, complete with a murderer and a tough homicide detective, then complains about the language.  Realism is what makes a great book, and part of what makes a great crime or suspense novel is the realistic dialogue of its characters.  If you don't like the language, then find another genre to read...


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

zizekpress said:


> Does it put you off a book if the character swears?
> 
> Or if it's in first person, swears inside his head?


I don't usually notice a couple of mild expletives but if there's a crazy amount of cussing I'll usually stop reading.


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## Julia Knight (Dec 12, 2009)

huwcol said:


> I can't say it bothers me one way or the other _if it's appropriate_. By that, I mean, it might seem odd if Miss Marple in an Agatha Christie story suddenly started F-ing and Blinding over a plate of scones and a cup of tea. But it would seem equally odd if a novel about soccer hooligans or mercenaries omitted swearing. To do so would destroy the suspension of disbelief which an author asks his or her reader to engage in. It's all a matter of tone. If you have the characters fully in your head they will only swear when it is right for them to do so.


That's how I feel about it too. If a character who, if you met them IRL would swear, and then they don't in a book (imagine a mercenary saying 'Golly gosh, someone just shot me!' *snortle*) then it just rips me out of the story. Miss Marple swearing would be shocking and out of character. A football hooligan chanting at a rival supporter and NOT swearing would be utterly unrealistic. To me at least.

But it's a very personal thing. Whether you put in swears or take them out, someone won't like it!


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

I've been thinking about this lately.  I've seen a lot of posts here about how unrealistic it would be to have someone who would, in real life, swear a lot--mercenaries, assassins, tough guy characters--NOT swear in a work of fiction.  But isn't creating a good, memorable character also sometimes about defying expectations?  Allow me the indulgence of digression for a moment: I don't swear casually at all, and I could count the number of times I've sworn properly (ie not damns, craps or buggers) on one hand.  Why?  Because when I swear I want people to pay attention.  I want the word to have power.  If I swear, then anyone who knows me will know that the situation is serious.

I use swearing in my writing.  Never the worst words, in fact I had to think about it before putting a few well-placed s-words in my latest work--it has zombies, I felt that 'crap' just wasn't going to cut it.  But only certain characters swear--some do so more easily than others, one character is hesitant to do so around women and apologises for it, and I think about every 'bad' word that I use before I use it.  And often the things I take out while rewriting are hells and damns that do nothing for the sentence--a statement, even a strong statement--sometimes especially a strong statement--is often made weaker through over-emphasis.  At least, that's how I feel.

Going back to memorable characters, the one that immediately springs to mind is Brother Mouzone from The Wire.  He's well-spoken, well-read, highly intelligent, impeccably neat--and is one of the deadliest characters on the show, a professional killer.  He DOES swear, but hardly at all compared to pretty much every other character, and every time he does the word is clearly and consciously chosen.  He appears, I think, in six episodes, but he's one of the most memorable and interesting characters on a show FILLED with memorable and interesting characters.

The Wire generally has a lot of swearing--I mean a LOT.  But it has to, because of its setting, because of its characters.  It would be ridiculous NOT to have swearing.  And it's a great TV show, one of my favourites.  Do I like swearing?  No.  Do I hate swearing?  No.  What I dislike is pointlessness and lack of thought.  I see so often, time and again, in real life and in works of fiction, pointless swearing that has no reason at all to be where it is.  It's a sign of immaturity and a sign--in fiction--that the creator has not given thought to their words.  Some characters swear, that's fine.  But so often the swearing seems to be in PLACE of 'character' or original thought, shoved in there in an attempt to be big and hard and clever, when in reality it has the opposite effect--it makes the character look small and weak and unintelligent.  I'm sure you've seen this, especially from younger people, where swearing becomes a mark almost of desperation, an attempt to get attention that does not have the intended effect.  It can be the same in writing, when swearing is used poorly or gratuitously.  When done right, it's almost invisible, or it's used for striking and appropriate emphasis.  When done poorly, it marks the writer as unoriginal and coarse.  Remember also, the more you use swearing in your work, the less power it will have.

The characters in The Wire swear because it's part of who they are, part of where they grew up, part of where they live.  The swearing comes FROM the characters and the setting.  I think that's fine--necessary, actually.  It wouldn't be The Wire without it--and where would Clay Davis be without his hilarious "SHEEEEEEEEEEEEET"s?  But I feel like I need to repeat this, the swearing comes FROM the characters, it's not forced ONTO the characters.  And it's always, always superbly written.

I guess what I'm saying is a cliche in itself; good writing is good writing, no matter the language used.  But I think swearing is kind of a special case, an area in which it's easier for some people to 'slip'.  Just as it can be odd to have a 'hard' character not swear, it can be just as distracting and awkward to have a 'soft' character use 'bad' language--especially if EVERY character is like this, which I see more and more often these days.  By all means use swearing in your work, let your characters express themselves naturally, but give a little thought as to where the swearing is coming from--and whether there's a better, more interesting, more original way to do it.


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## bordercollielady (Nov 21, 2008)

I have to admit that  I just have never liked  hearing or reading  the F-word.    If  there is a  lot of it in a book - it turns me  off.


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