# Novels may die



## Neil Ostroff (Mar 25, 2011)

I’ve been writing 50,000-70,000 word novels for a while now and to do it properly takes a lot of time. My fastest writing ever was last year when I finished a 60,000 word novel in eight months. And I do believe there will always be readers who want to immerse themselves in a long, detailed story. However, I also believe that a new wave of reading experiences will take over the future. What are these, you ask?
As our lives become busier and busier, it’s harder to find time to sit and just read a book. People have shorter and shorter intervals of spare moments; a twenty-minute bus commute or a ten minute wait in a parking lot to pick up your kid are the norm. We need quick, exciting stories to pass the time.
I believe readers and writers will see a new trend of the reading experience evolve. I think shorter series novels will take the place of long, epic ones. These stories will hook the reader immediately and satisfy the escapism bug without delving too deeply into page upon page of subplots, characterization, and long, overly developed plots. Like a quick shot of whiskey to loosen you up instead of a whole evening of drinking.
Gone will be the days of $2.99, $1.99, or even $0.99 ebooks. These short, series novellas will cost a quarter, or a dime, or maybe even free to hook an audience into the series. Fans will alert others when a new novella is released and the viral effects will be staggering (assuming you can write a good story).
Authors will have to be extremely prolific in the near future to keep up with the demand of writing a dozen or more series novellas a year. But the big corporate pressures of the past to create a perfect, profitable, publishing package will go extinct. Readership will decide what series are worth their time, not a table of executives sitting on a high floor of a skyscraper in New York City.
That said, I have nearly completed the first novella in my planned six-book dystopian series. Each book will be priced at $0.99 and end with a killer cliffhanger (much like the television series’ LOST and THE X FILES always did) hooking the audience to purchase the next book. Bring on the future of book publishing and readers. This is the most exciting, innovative time ever to be an author.


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## Rob May (Jun 18, 2012)

I hope that you're right - I've just started writing the first in what I hope will be a series of novellas, each about 20k words long. The only problem I can forsee is that, like LOST, authors might write themselves into a dead-end, setting up questions and mysteries without planning on how they're going to wrap it all up in the end.

Rob


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Disagreed.  I don't see novels going anywhere anytime soon.  Those short intervals of time have always been there and people will do what they've always done: read a few pages here and there.  If anything, this is made easier than ever with the rise of phone-based Kindle and/or Nook apps.  Have 20 minutes at lunch, read a dozen pages.  Waiting for someone to send you a file, read 2 or 3 more.  etc etc.  I don't see some great need arising for short stories to pass that time.  As always there will be people who enjoy short stories, novellas and the like, but if this past year has told me anything (what with the 500+ page Fifty Shades books going through the roof) it's that longer reads aren't going the way of the dinosaur.


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## Adele Ward (Jan 2, 2012)

As a publisher I can tell you short stories and novellas are the hardest to sell forms. People want novels, which are much easier to sell (nothing is actually easy). Poetry is easier to sell than short stories, and goodness knows poetry is hard. However, poetry is supported by a thriving network of live events. Short stories and novellas seem to have little to help them. I love reading short stories and novellas but they are very hard to sell. If you want to know the bestselling form, it's nonfiction.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I agree, Rick. There will always be a market for the 800 page blockbuster as long as the author knows how to keep the reader's interest. There are plenty that do.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

My readers enjoy the 100,000 words per novel, devour them and badger me to write the next one.


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## Christopher Hunter (Apr 11, 2011)

Already on it...

http://www.christopherhunterfiction.com/the-book-of-lumis.html

But will the audience follow?


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

I think non-erotic novels will get more popular in the coming years but I don't see full length novels vanishing in our lifetimes.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I also disagree.
As a reader I don't even look at short books and I don't read novellas and short stories. Of course I can't speak for everyone, but those of us who are looking for an immersive experience are out there.

Cliffhanger? Don't expect me to get your next story or leave a decent review for that matter. When I buy a book I want a complete story or I feel cheated. While certainly a series should contain continuing elements, to leave a major plot line unresolved is inexcusable.  Even a minor one, if that is one that interest me.
If your story has cliffhangers, add the next chapter and finish the thing. If I don't have the time to turn a page I certainly don't have time to download the next story.

I agree that people no longer have time to spend an entire Sunday afternoon just reading. However, that doesn't mean that they don't have the attention span to read a longer book in shorter increments. I'm lucky if I can stay awake more than 15 minutes before I fall asleep, but I always read something before bed.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Speaking as a reader, I disagree that novels have had their day. While I enjoy reading short stories, they are a quick fix. There is insufficient time to fully explore the characters or the world they inhabit. They are a taster, a flavour, where a good novel is the full, satisfying meal. When I sit down to eat, I want the full works.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

While I do think shorts will experience a complete revival in popularity, they will be priced what the authors price them, so I don't agree with your prediction of quarter (etc) downloads. Sure, there will be plenty of hobbyist writers who put stuff out at that price. There may even be some excellent hobbyist writers using that price. But mostly it will be writers people don't want to read. Readers will learn on a reader-by-reader basis and migrate back to stories they want at prices that can earn the full-time writer a genuine living. I make my living off shorts to novellas now. An alternative, will be sponsored writers. I.e. just like the Washington Post, Newsweek, etc. support their short stories (I mean news reports, essays and articles) with adds and low-cost subscriptions.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

Novels aren't going anywhere. They didn't disappear 150 years ago when serial fiction was the norm, and they're not going anywhere today. What's old is new again. Dickens, Dumas, Tolstoy, hundreds of others wrote in serial forms of one type or another, and we only recognize some of their works as novels today because those works were collected.

I do, however, think short and serial fiction are having something of a comeback. But the novel ... it's not going anywhere.


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

From what I see, there are readers for both novels and shorts, and there actually seems to be a preference for novels. Almost every short story and novella I have published has received the "I wish it was a novel" comment.


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

Neil Ostroff said:


> Gone will be the days of $2.99, $1.99, or even $0.99 ebooks. These short, series novellas will cost a quarter, or a dime


This is incorrect on so many levels, I'm not sure where to start.

People (writers) have been speculating this demise for eons now. And it hasn't happened. It is not going to happen.

Charge a DIME for a 20,000 word novella? You're joking, right?

I wish *I* had a dime for every time someone claimed the sky was going to fall. I'd be rich.

I remember an interview I saw with Dean Koontz in which someone asked this question. He said even if he didn't make anything, what would he do? He is terrible at just about everything but writing he says. So he'd write, like the rest of us, even if his sales were mediocre.

But he would never charge just a dime.

_edited to remove political reference, thanks. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Yep, I see no complaints about my novels being too long but occasionally see one that they are too short. I tend to do 80,000 to 90,000 word novels which seems a comfortable length.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Quiss said:


> I also disagree.
> As a reader I don't even look at short books and I don't read novellas and short stories. Of course I can't speak for everyone, but those of us who are looking for an immersive experience are out there.


That's a shame. Some of my best reading experiences have been shorter works. Stephen King's The Mist is a fantastic novella and it doesn't have what some would call an ending. I like longer books as well but some (George RR Martin's books, as an example) just get friggen tedious. I don't need to know the details of every meal eaten or every outfit worn.



> Cliffhanger? Don't expect me to get your next story or leave a decent review for that matter. When I buy a book I want a complete story or I feel cheated. While certainly a series should contain continuing elements, to leave a major plot line unresolved is inexcusable. Even a minor one, if that is one that interest me.
> If your story has cliffhangers, add the next chapter and finish the thing. If I don't have the time to turn a page I certainly don't have time to download the next story.


I think cliffhangers are great if done well. The endings of both Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers are cliffhangers (the latter of the two one that made me run out to a used bookstore the second I finished it). The Empire Strikes Back sure didn't suffer for the cliffhanger ending. King's The Wastelands almost killed me but what a fantastic ending.


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## Rob May (Jun 18, 2012)

There's got to be loads of marketing opportunities for short series, such as giving Part 1 away free to promote Part 2, etc. Not to mention the fact that you can combine them all in the end to make one big novel. That's the best of both worlds, if you can pull off a cohesive story.

Marketing and promotion are a big concern for most indie publishers, so that might be a big factor in deciding whether to try a series or serial.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

No form of fiction will die. There may be ebb and flow (as there always has been) but they will all remain viable.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

What others said, plus, not everyone takes 8 months to spit one out.  Some do, of course, and that's fine, but many people can create several 60K or more creations each year.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

Quiss said:


> Cliffhanger? Don't expect me to get your next story or leave a decent review for that matter. When I buy a book I want a complete story or I feel cheated. While certainly a series should contain continuing elements, to leave a major plot line unresolved is inexcusable. Even a minor one, if that is one that interest me.
> If your story has cliffhangers, add the next chapter and finish the thing. If I don't have the time to turn a page I certainly don't have time to download the next story.


Thankfully, my readers don't feel the same as you do.


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## Adele Ward (Jan 2, 2012)

I really wish ebooks made shorter fiction more marketable. With all of our promotions as publishers I can increase sales of novels and even of poetry. But short fiction remains the most difficult. I love short fiction. I publish short fiction for authors who can get their novels published by other companies but not their short fiction. I actually find it hard to believe how hard it is to sell when an author is exceptional. I put two novellas together by Noel Duffy, an author who was shortlisted with just 3 others for 'best first collection by an Irish author' for the Strong Award, but the novellas struggle to sell. One is serious and one is very funny and he has been compared to some of the top novella writers. I'm not sure what has to be done to sell novellas and short story collections. We've had a special low price for all our books for the festive period and 'January sales' and it's the short fiction that struggles most. And yet I love it. The novellas I'm talking about are here http://www.amazon.com/Return-Journey-Friends-Electric-ebook/dp/B005ES0D64/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1358720863&sr=8-7&keywords=noel+duffy


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

> Novels may die


Nope.


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## Adele Ward (Jan 2, 2012)

Ereaders have actually revived novel-reading addiction. If only this could spread to other forms.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I buy tons of books, but very few short stories or novellas. The only shorter stories I've bought are from people here on KB to support them and out of curiosity. Novels aren't going anywhere. Over the past two days I've bought three longer novels, 400-500 pages, all from the same author, after reading the first book...someone I'd never read before. These are longer books, slower books, but yet I'm riveted to the story, turning the pages as fast as I can.

It's really all about good writing and story telling and I love getting caught up in a nice long, satisfying read. I like books that delve deeply into subplots, characterization, and complex plots.


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## Catana (Mar 27, 2012)

It's utter nonsense to say that _everybody_ is getting busier and busier and therefore has no time for long reads. If you want to base your writing life on a wild generalization, fine, just don't try to set it up as the coming thing that will kill the novel. Believe it or not, there's room for every type of reader, including those who will gladly buy a long novel with a complex plot.


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## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

I don't get the full satisfaction from a short work that I do from a full length piece.  In fact, I just checked my Kindle library.  I have well over 400 books - not one of them is a novella.  SImply not my cup of tea, I guess.  I'll bet there are a lot like me.


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## ChrisRachael (May 21, 2012)

Speaking as a reader, I not only enjoy novels, I gobble up multi-book series set in the same universe. 

As a writer, I toyed with the idea of some serialized releases. After all, I enjoy serial television shows. Why not books? Then Scalzi decided to release his next novel as a weekly serial for marketing purposes, and the reader in me said screw that, I'll wait for the whole thing to come out in five months. 

Books are where I go to retreat from the world. It's nice to have a comforting, familiar universe to sink into, even if I only have 20 minutes. That just means I get to enjoy the book longer. Sometimes it's easy for writers to forget what readers are getting out of the experience.


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## Rusty Bigfoot (Jul 6, 2011)

People seem to enjoy my short story compilations.

But then, just how much scary Bigfoot stuff can one take in a setting? Probably a 2500 word story is just about right.


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

I think novels will continue to be the general preference of most readers. If shorts seem to do better, it's probably because of the rapid releases shorter formats permit.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

smreine said:


> I think novels will continue to be the general preference of most readers. If shorts seem to do better, it's probably because of the rapid releases shorter formats permit.


I specifically target this as part of my business plan. One story every two weeks in 2013. Bundles and Collections as the stories and bonus materials are assembled.

I don't expect that they will be huge sellers. I expect them to be accessible entry points, and good sources of supplemental materials for the main novel line (which will get at least two in 2013) . . .


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Uhm, I'm a freak. My bestsellers are my serials with 4-5 books to the series. They're 20K and $2.99. Each one moves fast and has a killer cliffhanger. I never thought they'd sell. I wrote them b/c that's what I wanted to read. 

I am so over 800 page books. Blame that Eargon kid. I'm now a commitment-a-phobe when it comes to picking up a book. If it's 500+ pages, I'm not interested. 100 pages, you say? With a sexy story and, oh glee!, a cliffhanger! I <3 cliffhangers! Freak-a-saurous Holly devours stuff like that! Rawr! 

Okay, seriously. I have 5K words left to write today. Peace out.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Neil Ostroff said:


> I've been writing 50,000-70,000 word novels for a while now and to do it properly takes a lot of time. My fastest writing ever was last year when I finished a 60,000 word novel in eight months. And I do believe there will always be readers who want to immerse themselves in a long, detailed story. However, I also believe that a new wave of reading experiences will take over the future. What are these, you ask?
> As our lives become busier and busier, it's harder to find time to sit and just read a book. People have shorter and shorter intervals of spare moments; a twenty-minute bus commute or a ten minute wait in a parking lot to pick up your kid are the norm. We need quick, exciting stories to pass the time.
> I believe readers and writers will see a new trend of the reading experience evolve. I think shorter series novels will take the place of long, epic ones. These stories will hook the reader immediately and satisfy the escapism bug without delving too deeply into page upon page of subplots, characterization, and long, overly developed plots. Like a quick shot of whiskey to loosen you up instead of a whole evening of drinking.
> Gone will be the days of $2.99, $1.99, or even $0.99 ebooks. These short, series novellas will cost a quarter, or a dime, or maybe even free to hook an audience into the series. Fans will alert others when a new novella is released and the viral effects will be staggering (assuming you can write a good story).
> ...


You have several conclusions that I find hard to fathom. Commute times have changed little since the sixties, and most surveys indicate that with the advent of labour saving devices in almost every aspect of day to day life, modern society has more leisure time than members of previous generations. I have more leisure time than my parents, and they had more than their parents. Both those generations were prolific readers.

I truly doubt that shorter length books will become more popular than conventional novels - the usual response to enjoying a good story is "I wish that it lasted longer".

I regard much of your supposition to be wishful thinking.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

holly w. said:


> Uhm, I'm a freak. My bestsellers are my serials with 4-5 books to the series. They're 20K and $2.99. Each one moves fast and has a killer cliffhanger. I never thought they'd sell. I wrote them b/c that's what I wanted to read.
> 
> I am so over 800 page books. Blame that Eargon kid. I'm now a commitment-a-phobe when it comes to picking up a book. If it's 500+ pages, I'm not interested. 100 pages, you say? With a sexy story and, oh glee!, a cliffhanger! I <3 cliffhangers! Freak-a-saurous Holly devours stuff like that! Rawr!
> 
> Okay, seriously. I have 5K words left to write today. Peace out.


But you have a super best seller with a full sized book though, right? I see it all the time browsing in romance. It says 324 pages. . But now that I see you love love cliffhangers, I'll probably stay away from it as I hate those. . I guess I now expect it to have one.

I don't like short stuff. Others do. But every time I see it mentioned how novels are going to die and shorts and novellas are going to take over the reader world, its from someone that likes to write short stuff. 

There is a huge difference between doorstoppers and short stories though. For me a regular book is around 300-400 pages. Up to 500 is still regular length. 800 and above are super sized. 

*************************
I think reading is just more accessible now. Doesn't matter if I am busy or not, I still will read and like the same, I'll just do it in chunks. Those that like regular sized stories mostly, won't be satisfied with a shorty. I read a few here and there from a author I like, but they must be at least 100 pages. Those are novellas I can read. Anything else just doesn't give me enough of anything.

I think short stuff is in addition to novels, not instead. If it takes a few minutes to read a short, then I would still have enough time to read my regular novels. So you get sales on both. 
Like a little snack and one can still read dinner later.

I do wish still that the short stuff and especially the serial stuff would be sorted out of the novel section. At least give me a filter I can set. Show me nothing under 100 pages. Then I could start using browsing again, which has become useless lately.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm not so sure we're really busier than past generations, we just talk about it more.  But maybe it's true.  

If that's true, I still don't necessarily see the correlation between less disposable time and a desire for shorter novels.  It's not like there's a need to finish a book in one sitting.  Readers are used to stringing the story out as long as it takes.  

I get that idea that writers want to finish more stuff faster and put it out on the market, and that making books shorter helps to achieve that, but I think this rationale is a bit premature.  Readers are pretty slick and I think they prefer the depth in the story that's more common at novel-length.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't read short stories, either. I want to get lost in the book I read, not just starting to and then get jerked back to reality.  

The books I write are (so far) all over 100,000 words. I am hoping my next series of novels will be shorter but each will be done when they are done.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Caddy said:


> I don't read short stories, either. I want to get lost in the book I read, not just starting to and then get jerked back to reality.
> 
> The books I write are (so far) all over 100,000 words. I am hoping my next series of novels will be shorter but each will be done when they are done.


Heck after reading all these threads about short stuff and serials, and seeing them pop up all over the kindle store, I am just glad as a reader, that there still are authors willing to write novels and doorstoppers. Please, write on.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Atunah said:


> Heck after reading all these threads about short stuff and serials, and seeing them pop up all over the kindle store, I am just glad as a reader, that there still are authors willing to write novels and doorstoppers. Please, write on.


Ditto, + a million


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Heck after reading all these threads about short stuff and serials, and seeing them pop up all over the kindle store, I am just glad as a reader, that there still are authors willing to write novels and doorstoppers. Please, write on.





> Ditto, + a million


Good to hear that from a couple of readers. Long live the long novel!


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Atunah said:


> But you have a super best seller with a full sized book though, right? I see it all the time browsing in romance. It says 324 pages. . But now that I see you love love cliffhangers, I'll probably stay away from it as I hate those. .


The one in the top 100 (SCANDALOUS) is a novel. It's 324 pages, no cliffhanger.  I have two sets of serials that are catching up. One is around 500, the others in the 200s.

I still write novels, but I prefer the other right now. lol.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "As our lives become busier and busier, it's harder to find time to sit and just read a book."


If that's the case, how come they have time to read short stuff?


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Throw me in with the "novels aren't going anywhere" crowd.  The big difference, and it's an exciting one, is that now there's a market for things which aren't novels, and there wasn't much of one before.  But novels are going to be "a thing" for a very long time, I think.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

They used to say rock 'n roll would die too.


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## britrocker (May 16, 2011)

I love a long novel no matter how busy my life is. I want to be thrown into the story and sit in there for a while.


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

"Gone will be the days of $2.99, $1.99, or even $0.99 "  You mention that they will be 10 cents a pop.  A pre-1964 dime has approximately three dollars worth of silver in it. So you could say that all these folks, me included, selling our novels for $2.99 are selling dime novels.  Sell enough of them and that's beer money or better.  As far as the 50 to 70K word novel going the way of the dodo bird and the tape deck, I'm not so sure.  The most satisfying reading experience I've had in years was coming back to Follett's Pillars of the Earth, a big fat book of about 900 pages.  It's still selling a gazillion copies a month too.  Good luck with your strategy.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Neil Ostroff said:


> I've been writing 50,000-70,000 word novels for a while now and to do it properly takes a lot of time.


You call that a long novel All 4 of mine are between 120k and 160k and they sell fine. In fact, I get a LOT of criticism on my short works because the readers want them to be longer.

Also, for those of us whose market tends to be the Boomers, as we get older, retire, and finally have the leisure to read longer books we want something we can really sink into and savor.

Maybe those who write for a younger market will have a problem but I'm finding pretty much the opposite.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

I don't think that youth is an indication of lack of patience for novels. YA works have gotten longer in the past decade.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Adele Ward said:


> Ereaders have actually revived novel-reading addiction. If only this could spread to other forms.


One of my friends keeps saying "reading novels is the new jogging."


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I don't think that youth is an indication of lack of patience for novels. YA works have gotten longer in the past decade.


I said "maybe."


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> I said "maybe."


Yes, you did. I read that.

Does that mean that any time anyone qualifies anything with a maybe then discussion ends?

Oh, no, it doesn't


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Disagreed. I don't see novels going anywhere anytime soon. Those short intervals of time have always been there and people will do what they've always done: read a few pages here and there. If anything, this is made easier than ever with the rise of phone-based Kindle and/or Nook apps. Have 20 minutes at lunch, read a dozen pages. Waiting for someone to send you a file, read 2 or 3 more. etc etc. I don't see some great need arising for short stories to pass that time. As always there will be people who enjoy short stories, novellas and the like, but if this past year has told me anything (what with the 500+ page Fifty Shades books going through the roof) it's that longer reads aren't going the way of the dinosaur.


I agree with Rick's disagreement - novels satisfy the need to have a story to come to that you already know part of. There's something very comforting and captivating about that.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> Yes, you did. I read that.
> 
> Does that mean that any time anyone qualifies anything with a maybe then discussion ends?


No, it means that someone has posited a possibility. The discussion can continue with that in mind.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

DarkScribe said:


> No, it means that someone has posited a possibility. The discussion can continue with that in mind.


And it did.

The statement made was that evidence points to longer works in the age range becoming more prevalent.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

DarkScribe said:


> No, it means that someone has posited a possibility. The discussion can continue with that in mind.


Exactly.... unless someone is just being a crank.


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## markobeezy (Jan 30, 2012)

Well-written, skillfully crafted novels will never go the way of the Dodo bird! Whether a book is 150, 80 or 35 thousand words, people will purchase their novels based on genre. Epic fantasy? 120 thousand at least. Historical fiction or suspense/thriller? 70-100 thousand. Romance? Wide range of story lengths. As far as anything under 40 thousand, that's a novella. They cater to a specific crowd, which I'm definitely not a part of.

##OldSchool4Ever##


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

This reader is with Quiss.  If I encounter a cliffhanger at the end of a book (and I mean a real cliffhanger--the hero is stuck in mortal danger in some situation), I will not be blackmailed into buying another book to find out what happens. As was discussed in another thread, I don't consider this to be the same thing as long term character development across a series. That is NOT a cliffhanger.  But I've stopped reading a couple of series that I was otherwise enjoying because of this.  I decided I didn't really care if the protagonist bought it in the alley.  

As for long vs short form; I would argue that the Kindle and other ereaders have made it even easier to read novels.  I can be out and about and read a bit of my book here and there on my mobile device/phone; and then get home and pick up a Kindle and read some more.  And no matter which device I pick up, the Kindle knows where I stopped....this makes it extremely easy to read in little bits.

Betsy


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> Exactly.... unless someone is just being a crank.


You should really re-read what I said.

Because if I meant "you are wrong, Kathleen" I would write "you are wrong, Kathleen" . . .

Much as I am going to write: you are overreacting, Kathleen.

The issue here is you getting touchy about a statement which I made that had nothing at all to do with the validity of your opinion. It simply shared a trend in novels you claimed you were unsure about. I also clearly stated thought it was my thought.

I am very sorry you have misconstrued my statement into some kind of personal affront. I will however point out that that is your problem, and not mine. *shrug*


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## Ryne Billings (May 15, 2011)

Novels will never die. Maybe they will, but I don't see it happening, barring a zombie apocalypse or the sun going supernova.

There will always be people that enjoy short fiction and will be glad to pay for it, but there will be at least as many that won't something longer. Personally, I don't like reading anything under 30k, but I much prefer to read works that are over 100k. If I only have a short time to read, I'll just make steady progress on a full length fiction instead of going for something shorter. Of course, I've actually read two of the Wheel of Time books in a single day, so I can definitely read fast enough to make use of whatever time I have.

Anyways, that's how I see it.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This reader is with Quiss. If I encounter a cliffhanger at the end of a book (and I mean a real cliffhanger--the hero is stuck in mortal danger in some situation), I will not be blackmailed into buying another book to find out what happens. As was discussed in another thread, I don't consider this to be the same thing as long term character development across a series. That is NOT a cliffhanger.


Perhaps there's some disagreement over this because of a difference of definitions. There are multiple types of cliffhangers, starting with the very basic physical peril cliffhanger, which can be the thinnest (and cheapest, if it's by it's lonesome). I've yet to end a book on that particular note, personally. The other types off cliffhangers include emotional, revelatory, thematic, etc. etc. I can imagine I'd get quite perturbed if a series continuously ended on the same note of "Oh no! Our heroine is in deadly danger! Tune in for the next exciting installment..." I prefer to wrap up the main threads of the novel's plot, then throw in a twist at the end (usually only tangentially related to that plot line) to keep 'em hanging. That's also a cliffhanger.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

i read short stories, i read novels, i read non-fiction.  there will always be a market for all of them.


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

I think there'll always be every sort of fiction - drabbles to doorstoppers. Ereading makes all forms easier to access and easier to read.

As to the short-form and novellas, I'm all for it. Originally, I was going to just do my serial as "sections from a full novel", and for the first two books, that's what they'll be, because they both have story enough to fill 100k words (and then I'll do a combined version, so people aren't angry at the end of #1). But after those two, I think I'm going to move into the novella format (well, some will verge on being novels, and some will definitely be novels), I just like the idea of being able to give each idea room to breathe, rather than relegating certain aspects to a sub-plot, or whatnot, and the episodic/novella form fits that perfectly. They'll eahc be self-contained, but with continuing elements, like any good series.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

The idea that novels could die out is absurd. A better point would be that novellas will continue to rise in popularity, but even that isn't supported by any reliable evidence.

Certainly there are current trends that seem to favor novella-length works, but that's only now. These trends mean nothing for the long term because there is no stability in the ebook market right now (nor will there be in the foreseeable future), and it's not at all clear that the rise in novella sales isn't just coming from the proverbial pie expanding. Novella sales may continue to go through the roof while novel sales continue to grow, just not as fast. And the rate of novella sales growth may also plateau or decline in the next few years.

The only thing we can predict about books and ebooks is that the market will still be very much in flux five years from now, probably even ten years from now. This is the only conclusion borne out by anything I've seen. Bottom line: Write what you like, and read what you like.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This reader is with Quiss. If I encounter a cliffhanger at the end of a book (and I mean a real cliffhanger--the hero is stuck in mortal danger in some situation), I will not be blackmailed into buying another book to find out what happens. As was discussed in another thread, I don't consider this to be the same thing as long term character development across a series. That is NOT a cliffhanger. But I've stopped reading a couple of series that I was otherwise enjoying because of this. I decided I didn't really care if the protagonist bought it in the alley.
> 
> As for long vs short form; I would argue that the Kindle and other ereaders have made it even easier to read novels. I can be out and about and read a bit of my book here and there on my mobile device/phone; and then get home and pick up a Kindle and read some more. And no matter which device I pick up, the Kindle knows where I stopped....this makes it extremely easy to read in little bits.
> 
> Betsy


It very much depends. I am at least to some degree the opposite.

If the hero is stuck in mortal danger as some LOGICAL outcome of the plot, I don't have any problem with it except for having to wait for the next book. (and we all know who I'm talking about lol) But it better be something that is part of the long arc of the plot and not just stuck in. And I HATE the thing where it's all worked out but at the last second some new problem pops up out of the blue. That strikes me as rather cheap trickery.

Otherwise, I already said, I'm a long form woman. On rare occasion, I'll read a novella but my strong preference is for full-length novels.


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## Aya Ling (Nov 21, 2012)

I prefer full length novels too but somehow I can't write that long!   However, I've also grown wary of doorstoppers too. About a year ago I was reading Chinese fiction online (there are sites similar to Wattpad) and many authors were writing 500k and up. For novels of that length, the plot usually becomes repetitive and dragged out, so I rarely bother with those anymore. That being said, no, novels won't die! If the story's good, I'd want enough of it to be satisfying!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JRTomlin said:


> If the hero is stuck in mortal danger as some LOGICAL outcome of the plot, I don't have any problem with it except for having to wait for the next book. (and we all know who I'm talking about lol) But it better be something that is part of the long arc of the plot and not just stuck in. And I HATE the thing where it's all worked out but at the last second some new problem pops up out of the blue. That strikes me as rather cheap trickery.


^This is what I'm talking about. There was at least one very popular paranormal series where the major plot was resolved, and then the heroine was walking down the street and got snatched in the alley by another enemy. Which was apparently the start to the new book's crisis. Nope, not going to do it.



RobertJCrane said:


> I prefer to wrap up the main threads of the novel's plot, then throw in a twist at the end (usually only tangentially related to that plot line) to keep 'em hanging. That's also a cliffhanger.


I guess I don't see a "twist" as meaning the same as a "cliffhanger." But OK. I think we may be in violent agreement on how NOT to end a book. 

Betsy


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

If you generally write longer works, your readers may be unhappy with your shorter works, because they are the type of readers who prefer longer works. Someone who makes a practice of writing shorter works has attracted those readers that prefer shorter works, and is less likely to hear complaints about shorter works.

Novels aren't going to go way, we'll have works ranging from short stories to novels so large they have their own gravity wells. I prefer shorter works over doorstoppers, but there will be something for everyone.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> ^This is what I'm talking about. There was at least one very popular paranormal series where the major plot was resolved, and then the heroine was walking down the street and got snatched in the alley by another enemy. Which was apparently the start to the new book's crisis. Nope, not going to do it.
> 
> I guess I don't see a "twist" as meaning the same as a "cliffhanger." But OK. I think we may be in violent agreement on how NOT to end a book.
> 
> Betsy


I dropped a star off a well-known and hyped YA dystopian debut because of the ending. It wasn't even that cliffhangery, it was just an ending I felt was designed to manipulate readers into NEEDING to read the next one.

I think that if you have done a good job writing your novel, they will want to read the next one.

Same goes with shorts. All of my short fiction has a definite end. It may make people wonder more about the characters, but the plots are done.

Now, serials ARE designed to demand the next instance. That is the one form of fiction in which I completely do not mind a cliffhanger. If I am reading a serial I am completely ok with knowing that I will need to keep going.

That said, I want there to be a finite number of episodes, at which point the major issues of that series are tied up. When done in "seasons" I want each season to round off correctly, with no MAJOR cliff hangers. So long as that's dine, I'm happy to have the "OMG what next" feel for the month or two between serial issues.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I agree.  To me, serials by definition have cliffhangers.  And I don't knowingly read them.


I love really, really, really, really long books.

Betsy


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

QuantumIguana said:


> If you generally write longer works, your readers may be unhappy with your shorter works, because they are the type of readers who prefer longer works.


Personally I like all works in a universe I enjoy. So if someone does some shorts or novellas as well as novels I like to read them.

I also like to read "related works" in the same general universe which may not feature the same characters.

An example of this is David Weber's Honor Harrington novels which also have some supplementary material (not all written by Weber) as well as some sci-fi espionage books that relate but feature very minor characters from the main novels and a spin-off "young officers" type series where HH herself plays a very minor role, but some of her buddies get more screen time.

If I like an author or a series and I have the choice of wait a really long time for new stuff or get some now and some later I generally take the latter.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> Personally I like all works in a universe I enjoy. So if someone does some shorts or novellas as well as novels I like to read them.
> 
> I also like to read "related works" in the same general universe which may not feature the same characters.
> 
> ...


While I think that GRR Martin should be chained to his desk and flogged until he finished his really long books. (joking. no attacks please0


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

My favorite author of all time is Wally Lamb -- his novels are lllloooonnnngggg ... and I inhale them. The longer the better.  He wrote a novella a few holiday seasons back, it wasn't as good as She's Come Undone or his other meaty works, but it wasn't terrible. 

The reason, IMO, Lamb shines as an author is that he takes the time to tell a story at it's natural length.  That's what, as a reader, I value.  Tell me the whole story at the pace in which you, as the author, see it unfolding. Long, short, doesn't matter ... just tell me a good story.

And as far as which the way the wind will blow in the future?  Eh.  I don't know.  I think we can bend predictions to will, like the collapse of trade publishing, like the death of the novel.  There will always be people who would benefit from something cataclysmic, like either of the above, happening and so they look for signs.  I don't.  I just write books, tell stories, publish them and let the rest come out in wash.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JRTomlin said:


> While I think that GRR Martin should be chained to his desk and flogged until he finished his really long books. (joking. no attacks please0


 

Betsy


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This reader is with Quiss. If I encounter a cliffhanger at the end of a book (and I mean a real cliffhanger--the hero is stuck in mortal danger in some situation), I will not be blackmailed into buying another book to find out what happens. As was discussed in another thread, I don't consider this to be the same thing as long term character development across a series. That is NOT a cliffhanger. But I've stopped reading a couple of series that I was otherwise enjoying because of this. I decided I didn't really care if the protagonist bought it in the alley.
> 
> As for long vs short form; I would argue that the Kindle and other ereaders have made it even easier to read novels. I can be out and about and read a bit of my book here and there on my mobile device/phone; and then get home and pick up a Kindle and read some more. And no matter which device I pick up, the Kindle knows where I stopped....this makes it extremely easy to read in little bits.
> 
> Betsy


I suspect this is a common reason why readers do not start a new series until it is finished. Or else the author drags it on till they die and never finish *cough Jordan cough*



Eric C said:


> They used to say rock 'n roll would die too.






"The Novel"

You can't kill the novel
The novel will live on
Serial-fiction tried to kill the novel
But they failed, as they were smite to the pulp
Poetry tried to kill the novel
But they failed, as they were stricken down to the pulp
Fan-fiction tried to kill the novel Ha,hahahahaha
They failed, as they were thrown to the pulp
Aargh! yeah!

No-one can destroy the novel
The novel will strike you down with a vicious blow
We are the vanquished foes of the novel
We tried to win for why we do not know

Audio-books tried to destroy the novel, but the novel had its way
Choose your own adventure then tried to dethrone the novel, but novel was in the way
TV adaptations tried to destroy the novel, but novel was much too strong
Movies tried to defile the novel, but movies was proven wrong
Yea!

Novel!
It comes from hell!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

SBJones said:


> I suspect this is a common reason why readers do not start a new series until it is finished. Or else the author drags it on till they die and never finish *cough Jordan cough*


That may be; however, that's not my issue. I read many series in progress; I don't read serials, which is what the OP seemed to be proposing. And having the serial being complete wouldn't make me read it all.

Betsy


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

SBJones said:


> I suspect this is a common reason why readers do not start a new series until it is finished. Or else the author drags it on till they die and never finish *cough Jordan cough*


Depends on the type of series. If it's open-ended, there's no real reason to not read the books. If the point is the epic storyline, however, it becomes more of a problem.

I lost patience with Jordan mainly because nothing really happened.

Martin, on the other hand, makes a load of things happen in every book.

I'll probably get to WOT again now that Sanderson has finished it off. But I've been reading AGOT since the first was in MMPB, and I look forward to the hardcover of every new installment.


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## matthewturner (Aug 1, 2012)

I can see this maybe happening for certain genres, but for the most part novels will remain as they are. I think the mainstream reader likes a book that immerses them and takes a while to get through. 

Matthew


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

DDark said:


> The biggest complaint by and large among the readers I know is that a book wasn't LONG enough - even when it was 130,000 words. I had a reader last night complaining about how serials are becoming more popular and they don't like it because they feel like they're being cheated a story.
> 
> We may be a fast society, but we're also a society who want's our money's worth. It's like when when we go to a restaurant, we expect our plate to be filled with an obscene amount of food. We don't want just a regular-sized sofa, it has to be MASSIVE and weigh 800lbs. We can't just have a regular bed, it has to have a stair step included so we can get inside of it. Can't have a tiny car either, it has to be an SUV even though having kids doesn't mean we need a bigger car because let's face it, our parents shoved us in the back of their Ford and we were just fine.
> 
> So no, novels aren't dying.


Actually, my parents had a van.

A full-sized van, not one of these girly mini-vans.

They moved on to a station wagon and a pickup truck.

I don't feel bad about my 30+MPG CX-5. It was purchased when we were expecting kid number two, with one under 1 at the time, so we knew we'd need a double stroller . . . they are HUGE. I literally couldn't fit the stuff we need to take with us into much less space. (And my cargo capacity is smaller than that of a Subaru station wagon today!)

But also: readers may want "more" but to assume we know why is dangerous. It could be because the 130,000 words were long on description and short on things actually happening.

Would The Great Gatsby have been as powerful if it had been 80,000 words long? (That's 60+% more words than it had.)



(I'm sure the novel is fine. Readers are just individuals, so we never know why they want what they want, and there's enough of them that like all the different formats . . . or all formats, like me.)


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

The idea that novels may die because attention spans are decreasing is... SQUIRREL!

That's why the bookmark was invented. The great thing about e-readers, is that you have an e-marker to keep your place, the reader slides into your purse or inside pocket and you can continue reading whenever you're obliged to wait. Supermarket queue, bus stop, train commute, waiting room. The only thing that changed is that 'within' novels, it became important to engage the reader straight away, from the first sentence, whereas in the time of Bronte et al, the pace of life was more leisurely, so people were used to page-long descriptions.

The only thing changed for short stories and novellas is that both were extremely difficult to sell in the pre-ePublishing age, which is why Stephen King mainly published his short stories in collections after they'd been published in magazines. Novellas have the advantage of being more suitable for transforming into two-hour movies. Shawshank Redemption, Stand By Me, Apt Pupil, are much more true to their roots than the movies made from King's longer works.
Now, in the ePublishing age, short stories and novellas are having a revival because the cost of publishing them digitally isn't as costly as the print versions - I have yet to meet the first eAuthor who publishes his short e-stories as POD without collecting them first. Printing short stories separately is just cost-prohibitive.


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## L.Miller (Oct 17, 2012)

I guess I'm the odd one out, because I prefer novellas. I like a story I can get lost in, but not ones so long I have to put the book down. It breaks the spell for me and I often wind up not returning to those books I put down. It's like waking up from a dream: once it's gone I can't really get it back. A book I can read in one night is perfect.


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## lmckinley (Oct 3, 2012)

The reality is that reading preferences have changed over history, and what we consider the modern novel really didn't exist until, what, the 1700s? I could go look it up at Wikipedia but I don't feel like doing that right now. Maybe it was a little earlier. At any rate, a few hundred years, which is a fairly small chunk of human history when you think about it.

From what I understand, at least part of this shift was due to the relative ease and speed of printing and publishing. Fairy Tales that rely on similar plots and epic poetry full of rhymes are a lot easier to remember and recite orally. There were lots of other cultural changes that contributed, including a new interest in the common man as opposed to the epic hero.(I think.) But a difference came with the change in format. A lot of people have been trying to find some kind of correlating cultural shift related to eReaders as a medium. Does it change the way we read? Maybe it will someday. But at this point it seems to me that the eReader is only building on a literary culture that is already in place, rather than starting something really new and different. 

It's similar to computers I think. The new computer users would used them as an extension of things they were already doing - keeping track of recipes online instead of in the cupboard. But people don't stop saving favorite recipes. Some things have certainly changed and only time will tell what the impacts are. 

Of course interests will change and the trend winds will blow one way and then another. People read fiction to be entertained, and the same old thing isn't very entertaining. Some of you doorstopper novel lovers may find in twenty years that the novella appeals to you. Or vice versa. Variety is the spice of life, right?

Imo, the only way the novel could lose its place is if someone invents something better. It's only been a few hundred years, and inventions like that don't come along every day.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> If I encounter a cliffhanger at the end of a book (and I mean a real cliffhanger--the hero is stuck in mortal danger in some situation), I will not be blackmailed into buying another book to find out what happens.


Ditto from me. I consider that a dirty trick and won't be back for more.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

End of the novel? Not quite. Not yet. Though at some point we'll watch 5 minute movies on the internet...for free. U-Tube please.

Yet still 90-120 minute movies have had a resoundingly good year in theaters this past year. There is room for both models.

Novels will be around for years to come and so will 90 minute movies.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "If I encounter a cliffhanger at the end of a book (and I mean a real cliffhanger--the hero is stuck in mortal danger in some situation), I will not be blackmailed into buying another book to find out what happens. "


I always put my welfare first. If I want it I buy it. I don't care about the author's commercial state of mind.

And death? Anyone ever notice how many death watches we have here? Death of the novel, death of bookstores, death of Amazon's competition, death of quality literature, death of paper books, death of paid books, death of publishers, death of dedicated eReaders... Has anything ever actually died?


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> And death? Anyone ever notice how many death watches we have here? Death of the novel, death of bookstores, death of Amazon's competition, death of quality literature, death of paper books, death of paid books, death of publishers, death of dedicated eReaders... Has anything ever actually died?


For some, sales have. Mine on occasion appear dead...but they always come back to life, thankfully.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Caddy said:


> For some, sales have. Mine on occasion appear dead...but they always come back to life, thankfully.


ZOMBIE SALES NEEDS BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIINS


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I always put my welfare first. If I want it I buy it. I don't care about the author's commercial state of mind.


So do I/So do I/Nor do I. That's why I don't buy it.


Betsy


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Adele Ward said:


> As a publisher I can tell you short stories and novellas are the hardest to sell forms. People want novels, which are much easier to sell (nothing is actually easy). Poetry is easier to sell than short stories, and goodness knows poetry is hard. However, poetry is supported by a thriving network of live events. Short stories and novellas seem to have little to help them. I love reading short stories and novellas but they are very hard to sell. If you want to know the bestselling form, it's nonfiction.


I agree about short stories being difficult to sell. Most readers are used to reading short stories in magazines and they like to get immersed in a full length book. I expect non-fiction is easier (and less risky for publishers) because there is a 'known' readership.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Overstated headline created to "stir controversy" over one author's personal preference, bloviated into a "prediction."

< / participate >


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "So do I/So do I/Nor do I. That's why I don't buy it."


I suspect we are an incompatible match.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I suspect we are an incompatible match.


  Terrence, I enjoy your posts, but I've never thought we were a match of any kind. No offense.  (Is "incompatible match" an oxymoron?) 

Betsy


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Kumbayah...


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I always put my welfare first. If I want it I buy it. I don't care about the author's commercial state of mind.
> 
> And death? Anyone ever notice how many death watches we have here? Death of the novel, death of bookstores, death of Amazon's competition, death of quality literature, death of paper books, death of paid books, death of publishers, death of dedicated eReaders... Has anything ever actually died?


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