# Who Decided Our Worth?' Do Free Books Give Away Authors' Value? Porter Anderson



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Not sure if this has already been posted. This been discussed many times, but there are some interesting points made.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/porter-anderson/2015/01/who-decided-our-worth-do-free-books-give-away-authors-value/

'The Impression That What We Do Requires So Little Effort And Expertise'

Here -- in one of many responses to Holloway, as a matter of fact -- is Morris' best formulation of her point:

I'm a professional writer. This is my livelihood and I take it very seriously. No other professionals in the book business are expected to work for nothing, or for so little. Yet the books we make are the foundation of everything. Without us, the industry has nothing to sell. If we give the impression that what we do requires so little effort and expertise, this will only damage our future and the future of the craft because nobody will be able to afford to learn to write well, to practise and develop.
That's the problem, well stated as a seriously practical concern.

Two thoughts from my own experience: _(blogger's experience)_

I have a different idea today of what a film ticket should cost than I once did, now that streaming services have made so much film material available to me at so little cost and with so much convenience. When I consider the hassle of getting across town to a cinema -- and at a certain time, no less -- after parking the car, standing in line, paying for a ticket, and then suffering the idiots in the seats around me? -- that "big screen experience" better be full-on IMAX. Otherwise, I'm just fine with my remote control that will pull in whatever I want to see to suit my timetable, not the cinema's, and with myself as the only chattering fool in the house. Now, does this mean that, say, Wes Bentley's performance in a film is worth less when streamed onto my nearest device than when seen in theatrical release? Of course not. But I'm not paying as much for that same performance, am I? How long is it before I subtly begin to think that an actor's work is of less value than I once thought it was?
I caught myself recently looking online at the new album of an artist I was covering in our #MusicForWriters series here at Thought Catalog and thinking, "Whoa, $8.99 seems a lot for that MP3." I'm not glad to be thinking that way. Do I like saving money? Of course I do, I'm American. Do I think that this composer and the studio-ful of artists who created that recording worked any less long and hard to generate such superb music than when that album might have cost $15.99 as a CD? Not for a minute. So how is it that I'm thinking of that work as being worth less money?
Over time, we're all starting to think of various forms of entertainment and artistic content as being worth less money than they were. Abundance, rather than scarcity, is doing this. And from a consumer's standpoint, that might be dandy. From the standpoint of somebody who needs to make a living creating these things we enjoy, not so dandy.

And Morris comes back with yet another reason (why don't we get this more clearly?) that comparisons to the music industry's artists don't work for authors:

There's a lot of comparison being made these days with the music industry, and how difficult it is for bands to charge for their music. That's pretty outrageous, but bands can make money from live performances -- or they can in theory. I bet most of them can't in practice. But writers don't even have this. Our books are what we have, full stop.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

I would argue that lower prices mean more accessible entertainment.  It's not that the value of the work is less, it's that the payment for the work is spread out over a far wider audience than ever before. 

"Free" is a marketing cost.  It doesn't devalue the work itself.  It's like saying that giving out a sample of ice cream means that consumers will never buy ice cream again.  You give out a free sample to whet the appetite and demonstrate in a physical way, how good the product is so that consumers will pay for it in the future. 

There is a world of difference between being paid hourly and investing in a product that will produce passive income, possibly long after you've left this world.  If you want to be paid for your work and done, become a ghost writer. Do one of the other hundreds of support jobs that pay a regular wage.

But if you want to gamble that you've got a story that can sell, you write it.  And more importantly, you get it into people's hands and into their heads.  If you've only got a single book in you?  Maybe you should insist on high prices.  But if you've got more than one flavor of ice cream to sell, don't be miserly.  Get people hooked on your product.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Free = discoverabliity

Read Smreine's thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,171330.0.html

In it she explains how she went to $700,000 in sales in 2014 by giving tons of her stuff away free.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Forgot to put the link 

http://thoughtcatalog.com/porter-anderson/2015/01/who-decided-our-worth-do-free-books-give-away-authors-value/


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Jan,
That person who's response you posted sounds like a ( oh never mind).  Your value is not determined by the cost of your books.  One person could buy your for $10.  But if only one person buys it, you are only worth $10.  Now if 10 people buy your $4 book, you are worth $40.  Just keep adding zeroes. 
Your value is determined by number of readers not the retail price of your book.


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## Accord64 (Mar 12, 2012)

"So, like a sample of a new peanut butter offered by that grinning, aproned person at a small table in your supermarket, the author offers a free book, or one nearly free, to try to snag a shopper’s eye. "

I've often heard this illustration used, but I think it's flawed. Food samples are meant to draw interest to an expendable commodity. If you like the peanut butter, you'll purchase it - and continue to purchase it. However, once a book is read (for free), there is no repeat business for that book. It's one and done. The best you can hope to get out of it is exposure and/or a good review. 

I think the most effective use of "free" is to lead readers to other books in a series, or to other books that you've written. Either way, a free book is a far more costly option when compared to giving away food samples. Use it carefully.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2015)

Accord64 said:


> "So, like a sample of a new peanut butter offered by that grinning, aproned person at a small table in your supermarket, the author offers a free book, or one nearly free, to try to snag a shopper's eye. "
> 
> I've often heard this illustration used, but I think it's flawed. Food samples are meant to draw interest to an expendable commodity. If you like the peanut butter, you'll purchase it - and continue to purchase it. However, once a book is read (for free), there is no repeat business for that book. It's one and done. The best you can hope to get out of it is exposure and/or a good review.
> 
> I think the most effective use of "free" is to lead readers to other books in a series, or to other books that you've written. Either way, a free book is a far more costly option when compared to giving away food samples. Use it carefully.


Think of the free book as the sample, and the rest of one's books as the whole jar of peanut butter


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Now yes, if your only (ONLY) book is free, then yes you will lose money because I now have your everything and cannot buy more.


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## Alexander Rodgers (Aug 17, 2014)

MyraScott said:


> I would argue that lower prices mean more accessible entertainment. It's not that the value of the work is less, it's that the payment for the work is spread out over a far wider audience than ever before.
> 
> "Free" is a marketing cost. It doesn't devalue the work itself. It's like saying that giving out a sample of ice cream means that consumers will never buy ice cream again. You give out a free sample to whet the appetite and demonstrate in a physical way, how good the product is so that consumers will pay for it in the future.
> 
> ...


This!

I would not write one book and give it away for free. If you charge for all of your books, in most cases you will still have to pay to promote it to get any kind of traction. I see my first book as a loss leader and consider it part of marketing costs. Has nothing to do with my perceived value. It's all about gaining exposure, hitting algorithms, and getting reviews as a newish author.


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

Heated arguments for/against free have been ongoing since Amazon started its Select program. There was _free_ before Select, when unknown authors gave away their work on their own websites or through free fiction sites, but Amazon gave free works exposure like never before. Instead of distributing work to dozens, or even hundreds of readers, worldwide distribution enabled writers to reach millions. Not that every author will reach more than a few thousand, but millions of people do download free books. Who doesn't like free?

I believe that there will _always_ be two camps. On the one side you have the professional authors who know that their ability to make a living doing what they love is made more difficult to achieve while they have to compete with free books. On the other side are the new authors who are trying to earn a place at the table, the authors whose skills and/or abilities are inadequate to ever earn a place at the table, and the hucksters who see opportunities to make a little extra money by gaming the system. The new authors see the popularity of established authors and want the same for themselves. But where the established authors built their following over years and even decades, the new authors want a following now. In fact, not even now, they want it yesterday. It's understandable. It's human nature to be impatient for success. Free does offer an opportunity for exposure. That it's bad for the community, and the future of the very people struggling to achieve recognition, is ignored. When the new authors reach a point where, in the past, they would have been able to quit their 9 to 5, they'll find that giveaways have moved the goal posts. The price that can be commanded by their books will no longer allow them to become full-time authors. When you've worked at training consumers that they can always get your work free or cheap, it's difficult to get them to suddenly pay $4.99 to $6.99 for a novel you've worked months to produce.

I see no solution to this problem. The newbies aren't going to be patient as long as they believe free will make their future. And they will never understand how much damage they are doing to their future by encouraging the perception that all books should be free.

Lastly, a number of Indies have complained that traditionally published authors resent them. I believe that the free and permafree books are a large part of the problem. But I'm sure that won't have the least bit of influence on newbies who believe that free is necessary. After all, it worked for the authors who have already _made it_, right? Oh, wait a minute, free wasn't available until a few years ago. Never mind!


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

I find the whole idea that value=cost makes me squirm, anyway. Rubs against my Quaker values. But, whatever.

You see this argument on everything from making dolls clothes to selling fan art, that costs should be set at a per hour basis like hired labour. It makes me remember something a reborn doll artist once said to newbies: Don't price yourself too high and use the hours you spent on it as justification, all you are telling people is how efficiently (or not) you are working. You're not going to make potential customers want it more.

And, frankly, some people can charge a hell for less hours of work because their end product, which is all the customer cares about, is more desirable.

A work of art's monetary value is what people are prepared to pay for it, nothing more, nothing less. And as someone who has bought entire series because of a free book funneling me in, the monetary value for me of the series has changed from $0 (because I wouldn't have tried it) to $30-40.
  
(ETA: Not just self published books. I bought The Hunger Games trilogy in ebooks, paperback and audio because I got the first one free. Getting the first stories of Azumanga Daioh free sold me not just on that series, but I've reached double numbers in the mangaka's next series, Yotsuba&, when I normally wouldn't have touched a manga about a five year old moving to Tokyo.)


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

We already GIVE a free sample. 

Better yet, buy my book on Kindle, if you're not 100% satisfied, return it within 7 days and get your money back. Amazon won't ask any questions. 

It's ridiculous to boil down any author's success to "well they went permafree, that's why." Please.  The people who make major bank with permafree are a minority. They are well-known, because they are successful, but I can also point you to DOZENS of authors I knew from 2011 who did the same exact strategy and because they more or less weren't of great quality to begin with, aren't around anymore. To say that SM Reine's success is solely due to going permafree in 2013 completely ignores the SOLID fanbase she built with those 50,000 sales in 2012. It also ignores the near constant release schedule she has kept. And I LOVE SM Reine, she's very funny on Facebook, but there are many, many other factors that played into her permafree strategy doing well.

Even me, I published in a completely DIFFERENT genre this past summer and out the gate my book shot to #3,000 in the Paid Kindle store the first week as soon as Also Boughts hit, and I sold 100 copies in less than 80 hours. I shared the book on my Facebook groups, but even that wasn't a ton of sales. Then I learned that Amazon emailed some of the readers who bought/downloaded Cancelled when it was free saying I had released another book. Hmmm, do you think that helped? Yeah, I think it might have. 

Nobody's success comes down to ONE piece of their overall business operations. And if it does, that's scary as you know what because if you are counting on one thing and one thing only to make it then when that one thing breaks down, you're screwed. Be versatile. Do your permafree, but make sure you have a product readers desire. Finding out if someone will PAY for your books is a good barometer to use to know if your product is sound. Then you can use permafree to lead to a bigger catalog and make sure you have ways to capture those readers in the back. 

I remember when the free lists were part of the overall lists. I am fairly confident we will probably see the free list replaced by the KU best seller list as soon as there are 1-2 million books in the program. After all, Kindle Unlimited is the program is the one that helps Amazon convert casual browsers into Amazon loyalists. Same with Prime. 

Every few weeks here there is a thread about "Is Amazon disallowing permafree?" and everyone sucks in their breath and hopes it isn't true (because it's a part of the pricing terms they don't currently enforce, but reserve the right to do so at any time). The smart authors will at least have a plan in place if the bulk of their visibility comes from permafree to adjust when things change, because that's the ONE thing that HAS stayed constant the last 4 years that I've seen. Wait a few months, and everything changes.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Scribbler beats me to the post. We have trained the public that books are free because most are (if you went and pulled all the ebooks off of all the readers out there, most would be free books).

The enabler has been all the peripheral sites that only promote free or deeply discounted books. There's a whole ecosystem that feeds on free books, and it's not like there are a lot more people reading or more hours in the day to read - if anything, there's less. All of which drive the price to zero, because there's no easy way to discern by quality. Which in turn leads to a whole new generation of gatekeepers, but the new gatekeepers are gatekeepers for free content, rather than paid content.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> It's ridiculous to boil down any author's success to "well they went permafree, that's why." Please. The people who make major bank with permafree are a minority. They are well-known, because they are successful, but I can also point you to DOZENS of authors I knew from 2011 who did the same exact strategy and because they more or less weren't of great quality to begin with, aren't around anymore. To say that SM Reine's success is solely due to going permafree in 2013 completely ignores the SOLID fanbase she built with those 50,000 sales in 2012. It also ignores the near constant release schedule she has kept. And I LOVE SM Reine, she's very funny on Facebook, but there are many, many other factors that played into her permafree strategy doing well.


Why would you equate posting a link to her whole thread as attributing all her success to permafree, *oh please!* yourself. 
I posted the link because the whole thread is worth reading. SMReine attributes the Huuuuge jump sales to permafree, not me.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

My two cents on free books.  If you are good, then either running free specials or permafree can help your sales.  Note: you have to do other things to like uhm advertise. 
I talked to one author who had a 5% sell through rate from a free promotion.    I hear you all saying but 5% is not that much.  If I remember right his books sell for $3.99.  So he gets $3 per book. (Give or take a few pennies).  I am going to put his advertising costs at about $500.  His net profit on that 5% sale through just a measly 7 grand.  (And that is on just one of his books).  
I would say not to shabby.
He got 2500 new readers.


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

lf you write books readers want to read, they will pay for them. If you write books no one wants to read, you will find it difficult to even give them away. Of all the self-published books on Kindle, only a small percentage are written to appeal to the vast majority of readers. Most self-published books are written because indie authors love to write and find writing more rewarding than reading. To make money from your writing, you have to write stuff that readers are willing to buy.  If indie books sell, it doesn't necessarily mean they have value; it means they are marketable.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

I'm moving away from "permafree" books. I write for middle schoolers, and they're killing me on Google Play and other sites. they leave low reviews because the other books aren't free. It's gotten so bad that I don't read reviews anymore.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

As I've made quite clear over the years here on KB, I don't believe in giving away free books. That's just me. I've also make it clear that I fully understand why some folks have had tremendous success with just such a tactic. Mr. Howey, as well as many others, and I have been at odds on this very topic for years, and it's difficult to argue his ride to fame and glory.

Quite frankly, I could care less what another writer does with their output, if it weren't for one important factor:

*I am denied some potential readers because I compete with free... or heavily discounted.*

There is some percentage of the book-buying public, folks who are used to free or .99 books, who wont' go near one of my titles @ $9.99. Why should they? Free books are as thick as pudding. They can saturate their reading sponge without paying a single cent.

I'm not saying this is entirely a bad thing. It has forced me to improve my product, if nothing else. And it's very easy for me to sit back and not be upset about the free titles erupting out of the indie volcano. I'm doing just peachy.

But if I were struggling to pay the electric bill, or buy ammo, then I would probably be a little more concerned about this ever-growing strategy. I could strongly argue that every free book lowers the average return on one of my titles. While it might be fun to debate that with some folks, in reality we've already beat this horse to death on this very board.

If you guys wanna have at it again, that's cool.  I'll sit back and watch the fur fly.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> My two cents on free books. If you are good, then either running free specials or permafree can help your sales. Note: you have to do other things to like uhm advertise.
> I talked to one author who had a 5% sell through rate from a free promotion. I hear you all saying but 5% is not that much. If I remember right his books sell for $3.99. So he gets $3 per book. (Give or take a few pennies). I am going to put his advertising costs at about $500. His net profit on that 5% sale through just a measly 7 grand. (And that is on just one of his books).
> I would say not to shabby.
> He got 2500 new readers.


My best free book promo got me an extra $25K that month over the previous month. (And, no. I had no platform, no nothing. I was brand-new.) And it kept on delivering after that, long after the book went back to paid--for months and months.

Works for me. That's why I'm permafree now, at last.

As far as "training" people not to buy your books at higher prices--that's, well, nonsense. I price at $4.99, which is where top-dollar indie romance is priced. Virtually all the ladies pricing there have a permafree first-in-series (often on every single series). I'm pretty sure that free promos are what have ENABLED me to get $4.99 on subsequent books--because a whole lot of people have actually downloaded and read a book, taken a chance on an unknown author, and a certain percentage have wanted to go on and read my other books.

From what I've seen, the smartest, best-selling indie authors do what WORKS. Not what might work later--what's working now. (Which can be different for different books, genres, and authors--I don't believe there's "one right way"). When something changes, they do something else. This business is changing fast. Do what works now. When things change--do what will work in that new environment.

Right now, iBooks and Kobo love free books, have separate, highly visible spots for free books and "free first in series" in particular. I'd argue that on those platforms, for Romance at least, a free first-in-series is probably the best strategy. Right now.

(And if I were deciding whose strategy to emulate--I'd pick the folks who are selling a whole bunch of books. Just sayin'. Not to say that free, expensive, KDP Select, or anything-else-you-choose will automatically make you a bestseller. The people who sell the most have also figured out how to write books people want to read. Personally--I want to write what I want to write. I choose to market in a way that will enable me to keep doing that, as opposed to writing to market--as opposed to writing the Hot New Thing. I don't write in a super commercial way, so I rely on presentation and marketing strategies, including free book offers, to get my stuff out there so the folks who like the kind of thing I do can find me.)


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

555aaa said:


> Scribbler beats me to the post. We have trained the public that books are free because most are (if you went and pulled all the ebooks off of all the readers out there, most would be free books).


I'm sorry, I've got to call BS on this one. I've got hundreds of titles on my Kindle and most of them are paid for. Yes, there are some people who do nothing but download freebies, but the balances in my bank accounts assure me that despite my multiple perma-free titles there are plenty of people willing to pony up for my non-free titles.

I think people have been adequately trained by almost every kind of industry to expect try-before-you-buy free trials. You go to Baskin Robbins and you can try the ice cream for free. You want to test out Kindle Unlimited, they'll give you a month free. It's the same in nearly everything. People aren't stupid. They don't expect the ice cream to be free because they got a sampler cup for nothing. There are always going to be people who game the system, but they're not in the majority or none of us would be here because the readers would be consuming nothing but the millions of free books in the public domain.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Like Joe said, no matter what you think about it, how it makes you feel, or how you approach it, you have to compete with free. Means different things to all of us, but it's true.

Personally, I think that's a wonderful thing. My life has been immeasurably enriched by free entertainment in every medium. I wouldn't trade it for the world, and I'd have to be a hypocrite, a miser, and a fool to not want to give back if I can. If I can achieve the same kind of success as the folks whose content I've enjoyed for free over the years-like, say, HBO or Hugh Howey-I'll be pretty damn satisfied.

As an aside, I might not be as sanguine if we were musicians. Those cats got the short end of the stick big time, and believe me when I say that live performances do not begin to make up for it. That's a joke. An absurd joke. I saw Opeth at a 200 capacity hole in the wall community center in Eugene, OR before they started to gain some mainstream traction and they _lost_ money on that whole tour. I would never, never, ever, not in a million years choose to be an independent musician over an independent author. Writing is _far_ more lucrative, _especially_ if you give some of your books away for free.

We should all take a moment out of every single day to feel thankful that we're in the ebook business instead of music.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

You know who kills the value of books? Libraries! Gosh darn them to HECK! And used bookstores! And people who SHARE books with friends. The nerve!

Okay, no more sarcasm. 

I make it a point to remind readers on a periodic basis that they can get all my books free via Overdrive, or through Oyster and Scribd if they're subscribers. Some people are super readers, and they have to have free or cheap to feed their habit.

Edited: also, I do think that no matter what you do, you work for free for a while. I don't know why writing should be rarified or different.


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

Free samples and permafree are not remotely the same thing, because they come in at different stages of the buying process.

Example: I am looking at five dystopian YA novels. They all look great. Two start with permafree. The other two, if I like the first chapter, I have to commit to buying the whole thing to get a full story.

I download the samples of the books with permafree. If I like them, I get the rest of the book... And sometimes everything the author has up.

The others, I don't even get the sample.

It's not the only way to make money. But in a crowded subgenre, it can make people initially pick you out of the crowd. It's not the only way, but the people saying funelling through free worked for them are not lying.

I don't take the whole "trained not to pay" thing seriously, because it seems so far away from how voracious readers work (and non voracious readers famously only buy one poor two books a year) as to be on another planet. We get subscriptions, we get permafree, we go to libraries... And we buy and buy and buy.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> You know who kills the value of books? Libraries! Gosh darn them to HECK! And used bookstores! And people who SHARE books with friends. The nerve!


Those damn libraries, dude. I wish readers had to pay a fee each time they crack open a book. Anything less disparages our worth as artists-nay, as human beings!


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

eleanorberesford said:


> And we buy and buy and buy.


It was worth becoming a writer just so I could take my book purchases as a tax deduction.


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## Yonderer (Jan 3, 2011)

My take on offering free books; Does it devalue the work? 

From my perspective no. As an indie author I've tried several different ways to separate me from the masses of good authors working so hard to put their work in front of readers; and that is the ultimate goal isn't it? To be read? I know for a sure and certain fact there are far better writers than myself. Yet from what I can find in my research of statistics, my small revenues from my writing, which amount to half my living... the meager living of a cowboy existing below the Federal Poverty level... and rather fine I might add  ... anyway... that small income puts me in the top 3% of all authors. 

That says that 97% of authors are struggling to simply be read. That to me is shocking. And Humbling.

I've read where other authors are ecstatic if they get a 3% sell through. (give the Free book and generate follow on sales in the series) For many months my sell through has routinely exceeded 10%. So... from a strictly mercenary viewpoint, the value of that so called "Free" book has been absolutely HUGE. Anything but Free. The Free books I offer are the Foundation that supports the rest. That is Far Far from "denigrating" the value of my work. It has proven in my case to be the Marketing jewel that has pushed my books to visibility. 

When no one knows your name you must do something to separate yourself from the "Sea of Authors" vying for the attention of readers. To me that is a Great Honor for a volume of your work. Not a denigration or devaluation.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

So many people are so scared of 'giving books away for free', or 'training readers to expect free' that they don't get what having permafrees really is: proving yourself worthy of being bought.

This is the thing with my generation: we don't do sight-unseen. We've never had to. All our music debuted on the radio and you coudl scan the CD in the store to listen to tracks. Triple A videos games are playable at Gamestop and Walmart, and they'll give me playable demos by the dozen every month in my EGM subscription. One could go into Borders and BN and just sit and read books to my heart's content. Oh, and also piracy.

In short, we see no reason to spend money on something we can't test drive way more than some piddly little ten pages. Unless we see a highly trusted review, or you're already a known quantity, why should we give you our money when there's a whole stack of people who have proven for free that they're already worth it?

I honestly can't tell you the last time I bought a book that I didn't get a taste of from the library, getting a free first, or literally knowing the author online.

Not even trad pub. I've made a lot of noise about how I like Brandon Sanderson and Jasper Fforde. I wouldn't have even given them the time of day if I hadn't spotted Mistborn and Thursday Next on the library shelf. Jim Butcher? Friend lent me the first five Dresden novels after she discovered it at a library. Gail Carringer? Yard Sale (so yeah, I spent a quarter sight-unseen.)

I'll tell you one thing: they all have a good deal of money from me for that initial 'investment' of a free book. Between Dresden, Alera and Spdier-man, Butcher's probably cleared a couple thousand from what I've bought, what people I've told about bought, and what people they've told about bought. I know for a fact that I'm personally responsible for at least 11 copies of Spider-man: Darkest Hour being sold.

...Which seriously you should buy if you like Rhino and/or Mary Jane.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I did two free promos the past two weeks and readers did most certainly buy my other titles. Last week was the best I've ever had on Amazon and the tail lasted a while. What did I do when it started to fade today? I scheduled a freebooksy ad, because it works. As for worrying about what writers who made it did  before the free option, so what? My Grandma rode around in a horse and buggy. I drive a car. She would have, too, if one had been available.


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## Alexander Rodgers (Aug 17, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> This is the thing with my generation: we don't do sight-unseen. We've never had to. All our music debuted on the radio and you coudl scan the CD in the store to listen to tracks. Triple A videos games are playable at Gamestop and Walmart, and they'll give me playable demos by the dozen every month in my EGM subscription. One could go into Borders and BN and just sit and read books to my heart's content. Oh, and also piracy.


This is was I was going to add. We as authors have to wrap our heads around the fact that times have changed, like it or not. The younger generation is used to free content at the click of a mouse. The good news is once they find something they are into, I find that they have no problem opening up their wallets. That's why more than one book is key.

Giving away something for free is an age old strategy to building a customer base. Is it right for everyone? Who am I to say. I can say that I still buy music, books, and videos even though there is an abundance of free content, which I also enjoy.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> My best free book promo got me an extra $25K that month over the previous month. And I had no platform, no nothing. And kept on delivering after that, long after the book went back to paid--for months and months.
> 
> Works for me. That's why I'm permafree now, at last.
> 
> ...


This is probably the most spot on post I've read yet. Rosalind, you just wrote everything that I wanted to write. Especially when you said that free "trains" readers to expect only free books is a nonsense idea. Because it is. If that were the case -that readers are somehow "trained" to only buy free books - then nobody would sell any books. Because, you know, these cheapo readers only want free books. I'm sorry, but these arguments drive me insane, because they defy logic and reason. Of course readers are going to keep buying books, even if they can get a bunch free. And you know what? The free books look the same as the paid ones on a Kindle, so the reader won't even know after a few days which books they picked were free and which ones were paid for. So all this bubkus about readers devaluing a book because it's free is just that - bubkus. Liliana Hart, who used to hang out here, has a lot of permafrees. She's sold millions. Yeah, sure, readers won't pay for books anymore because there are too many freebies out there. Makes sense.


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

I think what most of us lack is the data and the economic math to prove what works and what doesn't by backing it up.  Does everyone remember the price and profit graph from econ101?  It was the bell curve graph.  Lower prices meant lower profits, but after a point as you raise prices, profit peaks then begins to drop because you out price customers.  An ad campaign totally skews any numbers we gather, further clouding the question of optimal price.  About the only thing we can say for sure is nothing works for everyone and what works for someone won't work for everyone.

I think a better analogy is that publishing is like playing black jack and you need to start counting the cards.  There are no safe bets to "win" but there are times when it's to your advantage to bet.  

It's been four years since I published and Amazon seems to recreate the market every year and a half.  I'll say that it's a safe bet that none of this will be relevant in 6-18 months from now.

Build your mailing list kids and drink your Ovaltine.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

In this week's PW, Mark Corker says that, for the past six years, at Smashwords they have been encouraging authors to make their first in series permafree.

But basically what we now call a novel is what used to be a chapter. So this strategy isn't really giving your novel away.

I think a more interesting question is, what is the impact to the overall total sales value of all ebooks. The impact to the market. You know, there was actually a dip in ebook sales last year (in units). I have no idea what the actual total cash value of those sales is. No one does, as far as I know. What happened in the music industry is that the unit sales went way up, but the total industry revenue went way down, because sales moved from high value CDs to low-value downloads. There were a lot more downloads, but a lot less revenue.

http://www.publishingtechnology.com/2015/01/what-nielsen-bookscan-data-tells-us-about-ebook-sales-cycles-the-ebook-plateau/


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

555aaa said:


> But basically what we now call a novel is what used to be a chapter. So this strategy isn't really giving your novel away.


I'm incredulous.  When were the days of 30k to 50k chapters? And what did those days have to do with the Internet?


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Joe_Nobody said:


> As I've made quite clear over the years here on KB, I don't believe in giving away free books. That's just me. I've also make it clear that I fully understand why some folks have had tremendous success with just such a tactic. Mr. Howey, as well as many others, and I have been at odds on this very topic for years, and it's difficult to argue his ride to fame and glory.
> 
> Quite frankly, I could care less what another writer does with their output, if it weren't for one important factor:
> 
> ...


Permafree and Kindle Select free promotions are tools offered by Amazon to be used at the discretion of authors. It makes no sense to decide against using a marketing tool because it affects somebody else's sales and denies them readers. Even if that somebody is a nobody!


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

SBJones said:


> I think what most of us lack is the data and the economic math to prove what works and what doesn't by backing it up. Does everyone remember the price and profit graph from econ101? It was the bell curve graph. Lower prices meant lower profits, but after a point as you raise prices, profit peaks then begins to drop because you out price customers. An ad campaign totally skews any numbers we gather, further clouding the question of optimal price. About the only thing we can say for sure is nothing works for everyone and what works for someone won't work for everyone.
> 
> I think a better analogy is that publishing is like playing black jack and you need to start counting the cards. There are no safe bets to "win" but there are times when it's to your advantage to bet.
> 
> ...


The law of diminishing returns: marketing costs exceed the profit from sales despite an increase in the number of sales.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

My marketing strategy boils down to: get the first book in the series to readers with as little resistance as possible, make sure it's so damned good they can't resist paying for the next ones, profit.

Right now, perma-free gives me the best tactic to carry out the first step my my overall strategy. So I'd be foolish not to use it.

If perma-free goes away? My strategy stays. I find a way to get that first book in the series to readers with as little resistance as possible - offering it free to my mailing list and at as low a price as possible wherever else - and the exact same sequence of events plays out. Or if that isn't effective, I run .99 discounts every month or two with ads to get it to readers... you guessed it - with as little resistance as possible.

The tactics may change, but my personal strategy remains. And that's why I think it's important to have a strategy in place just in case perma-free did happen to go away so you aren't completely reliant on it.

I think a lot of people worry about the wrong things when it comes to free and discounted loss leading. If you write a good enough story, you'll make money on the follow-ups. People will buy your books no matter what the hell they've been 'trained' to do if you give them a kick-ass story with awesome characters and an unputdownable plot - but more so if you give them an easy entry point to the series.

So focus on the damned story first before worrying about whether or not readers are arbitrarily going to ditch your series because they don't think they should pay for a book (which I don't believe is true, as a reader, btw).

Give me a fantastic story and I'll spend hundreds on your series.

Give me a nice, easy way to find that series and I'll spend even more.

Just a thought.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

I think Amazon probably knows if permafree is putting a dent in the overall ebook market, and so do plenty of other major retailers. They can compare the permafree uptake in different genres (you hardly see history books permafree, for instance, and I suspect the tactic is used more in romance than in other types of fiction). That would give them a better overview of what we're only speculating about. 

Amazon could turn off the tap on free's visibility whenever they want. All they need to do is, as Elizabeth suggested upthread, get rid of the Free tab and swap it for a KU borrows tab. So we need to keep an eye on that tab. Free books might be increasing the overall range of what people read, leading to more overall sales. They might be as good for literacy as libraries. If only Amazon weren't so greedy with their data, we'd know. Until then I'm not going to angst over permafrees destroying publishing.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

We're trying to talk about two different things here. At the micro-level, a permafree can absolutely help a publisher gain visibility.

At the macro-level, the permafree model is not sustainable.

There's a super awesome series on Amazon Prime streaming called We, The Economy. It might be on Netflix too. It's really entertaining and breaks down economic concepts we all had to slog through at ungodly hours in the morning at school.  https://wetheeconomy.com/

Just about all of the principles in the videos we've seen in some way or form in our little microcosm of the ebook market, book market, entertainment market, and market as a whole. The Lemonade stand is a great example of how bigger publishers than us get different things not from the government necessarily, but from Amazon. There are still some categories we can't put books in for example.

There's nothing wrong with using permafree as an individual publisher. But that also doesn't mean it's wrong to say "If we look at this from a macro level, this is going to doom us." Other entertainment industries have done this and failed.

I am increasingly leery when companies LARGER than me need me to put my content free and tell me it's in MY best interest when it's really in theirs more. Amazon wants free books, right now, they are the ultimate loss leader to getting someone into their other departments to spend money. Bookbub in the Q&A says THEY want more free books, because it's what their readers want. Yeah, that's a nice spin, but really it means they need more free books so they can keep advertising those free books for affiliates and advertising fees, they are a for profit company.

And those of us saying you should at least THINK about how you might adjust or prepare if your cash cow suddenly dies, aren't worry-worts or chicken littles. We all know how much difference a day makes. Go to Amazon today and try to see the # of book in a given category anymore. It took me a few minutes, but I figured out how to see it still. But the little numbers in the parentheses are gone.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Shelagh said:


> Permafree and Kindle Select free promotions are tools offered by Amazon to be used at the discretion of authors. It makes no sense to decide against using a marketing tool because it affects somebody else's sales and denies them readers. Even if that somebody is a nobody!


I agree. I didn't mean to imply that folks should change/modify what works for them. I was only trying to raise a long-term thought process given a trend.

It begs the question; What happens after everything is free?

I like writing as much as the next word-jockey, but I wouldn't go through all this if there wasn't a payday on the other end. I couldn't. I would have to work to pay the bills, and thus wouldn't have near as much time. I believe very few would hire an editor, pay for a cover, or invest in research if there was zero chance at recovering the cost. So in the end, the readers may suffer. Fewer folks like me would produce entertainment. Fewer choices of lower quality. It's something to ponder.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Joe_Nobody said:


> It begs the question; What happens after everything is free?


Readers would exist in a perpetual state of having read the first in a series without ever finding out what happens next.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Sweet Amber said:


> Readers would exist in a perpetual state of having read the first in a series without ever finding out what happens next.


No, when every first book is free for too many authors, authors will start making the second book free too to get a leg up on the authors who only have Book 1 free.  In a pricing war, the consumer wins, but the businesses eventually run out.

I can't get the youtube to embed . . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDYvwUQ8e6w


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Sweet Amber said:


> Readers would exist in a perpetual state of having read the first in a series without ever finding out what happens next.


Like my friend, who had a shelf with the first volume of several encyclopedias, medical books, car books etc all beginning with the letter A, because she got them as free samples


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Making a first book free is not a pricing war. Making a first book cheap or free is what has enabled me, and many others, to price at the top of our genres and still sell lots of books. It is a sample, it works, and if it doesn't, smart indies will do something else. Permafree evolved as a next step after Select lost much of its punch for many people. If permafree loses its punch, something else will evolve. 

And yes, smart indies are also using other marketing techniques to build and maintain their readership. Using one tactic does not preclude one from using others. I don't think anyone has argued that "first book free!" is the be-all and end-all of a successful marketing strategy. Nothing is. I'm personally pursuing a plan for 2015 that has about four main prongs, of which permafree is only one. All of them reinforce each other, let's hope.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> No, when every first book is free for too many authors, authors will start making the second book free too to get a leg up on the authors who only have Book 1 free.  In a pricing war, the consumer wins, but the businesses eventually run out.
> 
> I can't get the youtube to embed . . .


Yeah, that's a slippery slope argument that doens't hold water because literally no one is doing that--mostly because that would make absolutely no sense ever to do.

With the exact same level of credulity, I shall declare that charging too much will cause unicorns to attack.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Really? Because we've gone from 99 cents to sometimes free to always free to now every first book in a series being free. As a collective we're playing slip n slide down that slippery slope. From pre 2010 to 2015, the mantra here has been a race the bottom in pricing.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> Making a first book free is not a pricing war.


QFT. So important to internalize this and stop propping up that particular straw man.



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Really? Because we've gone from 99 cents to sometimes free to always free to now every first book in a series being free. As a collective we're playing slip n slide down that slippery slope. From pre 2010 to 2015, the mantra here has been a race the bottom in pricing.


If you're saying "No, really, there's a slippery slope and we're all gonna tumble down it," then what's Look Inside? Samples have baked the slope right into the whole system. If every author is required to offer 10% for free, then some authors will seek competitive advantage by offering 20%, or 50%, or--God forbid!--100%. You're right back where you started, whether or not Amazon's allowing or endorsing permafree.

Further, free's a reality. It's not going away. One of the reasons that piracy of books is so rare may simply be that there are so many free books! If authors as a group didn't acknowledge, accept, and act upon the reality that entertainment sales are now driven principally by free offerings and pulled permafrees, piracy may step in and regulate the market for them. It has with every other medium that's failed to compete with free.

You're not going to do away with free, and honestly, we know you don't even want to, Elizabeth. I'm not sure why you're claiming that permafree is a slippery slope when you give your books away through a different system of your own. Is your AdWords revenue going to support you if the slippery slope comes for you and all of your readers decide to stop paying for your work and read it exclusively for free? I don't think it scales as well as high-priced ebooks in small, quality-driven niches.

It's a rhetorical question, because we all know that won't happen. You write words good. People pay hard-earned money for those words, cause they know they're really good words. They know because they've read you before--sometimes for free. That's a very sustainable system, whether we're talking on the macro level or the micro level. Free hasn't killed any media markets yet, and it won't kill yours.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Like my friend, who had a shelf with the first volume of several encyclopedias, medical books, car books etc all beginning with the letter A, because she got them as free samples


I will now be adding her as a character to one of my projects. That is gold.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> With the exact same level of credulity, I shall declare that charging too much will cause unicorns to attack.


This ^

It happened to a friend of mine.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Joe_Nobody said:


> It begs the question; What happens after everything is free?


Not everything is free. My series of seven books at $4.99 a book cost $34.93 until two months ago. I lowered the price to $29.94. In other words I made the first book permafree.

I write in a difficult sub-niche, and I color outside the lines. My choice is often sell nothing at $34.93 or sell something at $29.94.

$29.94 is _not_ free.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Really? Because we've gone from 99 cents to sometimes free to always free to now every first book in a series being free. As a collective we're playing slip n slide down that slippery slope. From pre 2010 to 2015, the mantra here has been a race the bottom in pricing.


Here's the thing you're not getting though: The _entire point_ of first free is to sell the second book. If you cannot sell the second book with a first free, you won't be able to seel a third book with a second free because at that point, the problem is book 1, either the marketing or the book and making Book 2 free isn't going to help because no one is getting to Book 2 in the first place.

First free is a thing that makes sense and works. Second free is a ghost story told to scare people away from free and at worst a temporary mistake people make when they first get Select.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> You're not going to do away with free, and honestly, we know you don't even want to, Elizabeth. I'm not sure why you're claiming that permafree is a slippery slope when you give your books away through a different system of your own. Is your AdWords revenue going to support you if the slippery slope comes for you and all of your readers decide to stop paying for your work and read it exclusively for free? I don't think it scales as well as high-priced ebooks in small, quality-driven niches.
> 
> It's a rhetorical question, because we all know that won't happen. You write words good. People pay hard-earned money for those words, cause they know they're really good words. They know because they've read you before--sometimes for free. That's a very sustainable system, whether we're talking on the macro level or the micro level. Free hasn't killed any media markets yet, and it won't kill yours.


This is a discussion board and I contributed to the discussion. The article talked about the value we create or diminish with our pricing. There's a big difference between free on a blog and free in a retail space. It's like I could join one of those Mommy clubs and they'll send me a box of products to try for free. But I can't walk into a grocery store and say "I feel like trying a new detergent, I'd like that one please to take home for free and if I like it, I'll buy more."

But so often if some of us talk about serious implications etc. things get derailed. Unicorn attacks. ::shaking my head:: 

I used to follow a really popular self-publishing blog where the main author/owner was a huge personality. I watched when after the Amanda Hocking situation broke national news cycles, suddenly 99 cents was all anyone could talk about. And back then, when people said "OMG, if they'll do 99 cents they'll do free and it will go downhill" people doing 99 cents said "Never! I would never go free, but $1? That's fair because I'm getting new readers who will buy my higher priced stuff" Six months later, guess what? It was go free because free downloads count as sales and you'll be on the Amazon Bestseller list and THEN get readers to buy your other books (this was before the lists were split).

Just the fact that I hypothesized if enough authors make the first book free, so it's not longer enough of a draw to readers, they'll start doing TWO books free and Megan Bryce rogered up she tried that and didn't keep it because her earnings didn't increase, I was shocked. And no, I don't think Megan Bryce as unintelligent or being evil to other authors nothing like that. It was just eye-opening that there truly is no limit to how far WE as a group will go to fight with each other over the reader audience browsing for free reads. It's a great readership, but it's not the whole readership out there.

There absolutely are media markets where free has killed them. Look at newspapers. Look at music. Even TV/Movies are fighting to keep their old system of advertising monies in the world of DVRs. Yes, there is advertising, and that's what I actually do with my free. My free books aren't truly free, they earn Adsense on my blog. The pieces on forums would be completely free, except those readers give feedback, so it's more a beta service as well. I'm not trying to say I don't use "free" I just am not doing it in a retail space.

There is a time and a place for all of us to talk about the health of our industry, where it's going, what are publishers doing etc. So often we focus on the individual results, but most of us who post here are outliers. I for one have seen the price point to gain visibility go lower and lower and lower over the last 5 years. It may not be a slippery slope with all of the trappings of that phrase, but it's a decline nonetheless.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

What was the point of this thread again?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> This is a discussion board and I contributed to the discussion. The article talked about the value we create or diminish with our pricing. There's a big difference between free on a blog and free in a retail space. It's like I could join one of those Mommy clubs and they'll send me a box of products to try for free. But I can't walk into a grocery store and say "I feel like trying a new detergent, I'd like that one please to take home for free and if I like it, I'll buy more."


You totally can email Tide right now and get one of those laundromat boxes for free.



> But so often if some of us talk about serious implications etc. things get derailed. Unicorn attacks. ::shaking my head::


You weren't talking serious implications, you were talking a made-up slippery slope scenario that makes absolutely no sense.



> I used to follow a really popular self-publishing blog where the main author/owner was a huge personality. I watched when after the Amanda Hocking situation broke national news cycles, suddenly 99 cents was all anyone could talk about. And back then, when people said "OMG, if they'll do 99 cents they'll do free and it will go downhill" people doing 99 cents said "Never! I would never go free, but $1? That's fair because I'm getting new readers who will buy my higher priced stuff" Six months later, guess what? It was go free because free downloads count as sales and you'll be on the Amazon Bestseller list and THEN get readers to buy your other books (this was before the lists were split).


They were wrong because they never conceived of the first free model, which is entirely different from the 'free to pump sales rank' deal that Amazon sabotaged.



> Just the fact that I hypothesized if enough authors make the first book free, so it's not longer enough of a draw to readers, they'll start doing TWO books free and Megan Bryce rogered up she tried that and didn't keep it because her earnings didn't increase, I was shocked. And no, I don't think Megan Bryce as unintelligent or being evil to other authors nothing like that. It was just eye-opening that there truly is no limit to how far WE as a group will go to fight with each other over the reader audience browsing for free reads. It's a great readership, but it's not the whole readership out there.


Your hypothesis... was awful. And Megan's respsonse proved exactly why: *It. Doesn't. Work*.

The fact that it doens't work is why it won't happen and it's a mistake a lot of people make for a tiny while (I totes did!) before the logic fairy comes along and asks "Why would anyone want book 2 free if Book 1 didn't convince people to buy Book 2 in the first place. And if Book 1 was selling Book 2.... What in the seven interlocking hells are you doing trying to give away the thing you're selling really well for free?"



> There absolutely are media markets where free has killed them.


Oh, lets.



> Look at newspapers.


Newspapers didn't go free, information became freely accessible to the point that people didn't need them anymore. Newspapers were also *ad supported*, the quarter you paid for the Washington Post wasn't how they kept the lights on.

Also, newspapers haven't been killed, they have become beings of pure energy, resplendent and living on the web behind paywalls.



> Look at music.


Music was 'free' for fifty years thanks to cassette tapes and radio. Piracy kept them alive.

What's killing it? Subscription services, which are NOT free (again, Ad supported and freemium) and that's only hurting the talent, not the leeches draining them and the listeners of cash and soul.



> Even TV/Movies are fighting to keep their old system of advertising monies in the world of DVRs.


HAHAHAHA.

They whine about this like they wine about VHS. It's never hurt them and that's not what's hurting them now. Just like newspapers, they're the victims of free *information*. When you can get tons of entertainment elsewhere, paid or not, you're no longer shackled and brainboxed for the TV.

And movies? Victims of thier own idiotic producers. If they didn't spend $50,000 to CGI a logo into the background nstead of just paying a union artist their $5,000, they would actually make money.

Oh wait, they DO make money, they just use creative accounting to steal money from the talent.



> Yes, there is advertising, and that's what I actually do with my free. My free books aren't truly free, they earn Adsense on my blog.


So you're like TV, Newspapers and Music then?



> I'm not trying to say I don't use "free" I just am not doing it in a retail space.


There is not a consumer alive that cares about the difference. Their phone reads your blog just as easily (easier!) than your ebooks. I'll put dollars to donuts that a huge chunk of people buying your book are essentially doing it to 'pay' you for providing them so much free content.

Because that is literally how that model works. I should know, I've been following that model for 14 years and know folks who have made a million dollars off of people thinking they're so awesome keen that they dumped tons o' cash into a kickstarter for content they could have for free.

Welcome to the new paradigm you didn't know you were in apparently.



> There is a time and a place for all of us to talk about the health of our industry,


And there is a time for Dr. House to scream at the person trying to diagnose 'busted ovaries' in a 85 year-old man.



> It may not be a slippery slope with all of the trappings of that phrase, but it's a decline nonetheless.


Wait...

And I'm not asking to be snarky, but because this comment suggests it... do you know what we mean when we say you're making a 'slippery slope argument'? It's a type of logical fallacy.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> What was the point of this thread again?


The article? Oh, it was about:

The same 'F U, Got Mine' attitude that bough you 'Amazon should charge to upload books' and 'Amazon should have quality controls before a book goes live' brings you, "Kill permafree so all these unknown authors won't have proper tools to rise up and challenge my comfortable position.'

A Jerry Bruckheimer Movie. Starring Tyler Perry, Liv Tyler, and Matthew Perry as Peppy the Unicorn.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Thank you, Megan . .  . I was feeling a case of my nerves coming on.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Megan, we should talk swag. I'm experimenting with T-shirts right now, but I feel like there's a better swag item to sell with books, I just don't know what...


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> This is a discussion board and I contributed to the discussion.


Of course. It's not that I don't think you should say things-I just don't think what you're saying is correct.



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> The article talked about the value we create or diminish with our pricing. There's a big difference between free on a blog and free in a retail space. It's like I could join one of those Mommy clubs and they'll send me a box of products to try for free. But I can't walk into a grocery store and say "I feel like trying a new detergent, I'd like that one please to take home for free and if I like it, I'll buy more."


We don't make and sell detergent. (See, e.g., http://www.hughhowey.com/snowflakes-united/, http://www.hughhowey.com/books-were-once-like-razor-blades/, http://www.hughhowey.com/books-are-exactly-like-razors/.)

If detergent worked the same way books do, most people would probably never have to pay for detergent ever again, right? They could just get some free detergent from Rosalind's brand, some free detergent from Vaal's brand, &c., and never spend a dime. I mean detergent's detergent, amirite? I'll spring for free every time as long as it's not got a noxious fragrance or something.

Books don't work that way, because Rosalind's readers don't especially want to read Vaal's books. Unless Rosalind makes all her books free-and she won't-her readers will ultimately have to pirate her books or pay for them. They've clearly shown a willingness to do so, just as your readers have.



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I used to follow a really popular self-publishing blog where the main author/owner was a huge personality. I watched when after the Amanda Hocking situation broke national news cycles, suddenly 99 cents was all anyone could talk about. And back then, when people said "OMG, if they'll do 99 cents they'll do free and it will go downhill" people doing 99 cents said "Never! I would never go free, but $1? That's fair because I'm getting new readers who will buy my higher priced stuff" Six months later, guess what? It was go free because free downloads count as sales and you'll be on the Amazon Bestseller list and THEN get readers to buy your other books (this was before the lists were split).


As I recall, the strategy at the time was for _every book_ in the catalog to be $0.99. Tell me, would you rather sell a dozen novels at $0.99 apiece, or give a couple away for free and then charge $2.99+ for the other ten? Which is higher royalties?

Just because some books are free now doesn't mean that all books have been devalued literally or psychologically. In fact, we've had many signals that the market has been moving in the _opposite_ direction! Look at your work. Look at Joe Nobody's work. Look at the way that higher-priced books tend to command more borrows than lower-priced books. We've had many, many anecdotes from folks who've said that $2.99 is a more appealing price point to readers than $0.99. That is fantastic news. Even if it means that we have to give them a freebie to get them in the door, we are still making gobs more money than under the old strategy.



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Just the fact that I hypothesized if enough authors make the first book free, so it's not longer enough of a draw to readers, they'll start doing TWO books free and Megan Bryce rogered up she tried that and didn't keep it because her earnings didn't increase, I was shocked. And no, I don't think Megan Bryce as unintelligent or being evil to other authors nothing like that. It was just eye-opening that there truly is no limit to how far WE as a group will go to fight with each other over the reader audience browsing for free reads. It's a great readership, but it's not the whole readership out there.


You're glossing right over how Megan learned it was a terrible idea and doesn't work. This is critical. Because you're right: she's not stupid. So she's probably never going to do that again.



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> There absolutely are media markets where free has killed them. Look at newspapers. Look at music. Even TV/Movies are fighting to keep their old system of advertising monies in the world of DVRs. Yes, there is advertising, and that's what I actually do with my free. My free books aren't truly free, they earn Adsense on my blog. The pieces on forums would be completely free, except those readers give feedback, so it's more a beta service as well. I'm not trying to say I don't use "free" I just am not doing it in a retail space.


Strategies have risen and fallen, but media have not. Television still sells. Movies still sell. Music still sells. Journalism (though I don't think it's as apposite) still sells. What's fallen by the wayside are particular strategies for monetizing and profiting from those media, and of course that happens to us too. Witness the end of the KDPS golden age. The end of $0.99 as a blanket pricing strategy. The decline of net profits in print as compared to ebooks. The rise of online retail relative to brick and mortar.

One thing that's universal to all media, however, is the rise of free as a strategy. Free isn't going away anytime in the foreseeable future. We all have to learn to compete with free, and for the most part, that seems to mean offering a portion of our catalogs for free. This isn't a novel concept, and it's not a concept that has a poor track record. U2 just gave away an album to millions of people who would've rather not had it, thank you very much, and I'm pretty sure they'll survive the experience. There's no reason to think that there's any kind of slippery slope where we'll suddenly become grossly irrational actors and destroy our own industry by offering everything up for zero compensation.




Elizabeth Ann West said:


> There is a time and a place for all of us to talk about the health of our industry, where it's going, what are publishers doing etc. So often we focus on the individual results, but most of us who post here are outliers. I for one have seen the price point to gain visibility go lower and lower and lower over the last 5 years. It may not be a slippery slope with all of the trappings of that phrase, but it's a decline nonetheless.


Ah, well then. If it's not a slippery slope at all, then we're fine. I'm totally fine with the idea that the first book of any series is free. If you're not, maybe we just agree to disagree on that one (brb piracy torrents).

Jeff Bezos has sworn a public oath to lower the cost of books and he's making good on it. His goal, however, is not for everything to be free. Nobody wants that. All he's fighting for is a world where we sell books at a fraction of the cost to a multiple of the audience. A world where more readers can afford to read and more writers can afford to write. None of us wants to jeopardize that by creating a new market strategy-the first one in the history of ebooks, mind you-that leaves authors in worse shape than they were before.

Remember: things have only been getting better for indies and for authors in general. This is a golden age. Think back to five or ten years ago and tell me that it was a better time to write for a living. Think back to any time in the past. The post-Hocking days have been _anything_ but a race to the bottom.

*TLR:* Authors should cheer the fuck up. Life is awesome right now.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> Jeff Bezos has sworn a public oath to lower the cost of books and he's making good on it. His goal, however, is not for everything to be free. Nobody wants that. All he's fighting for is a world where we sell books at a fraction of the cost to a multiple of the audience. A world where more readers can afford to read and more writers can afford to write. None of us wants to jeopardize that by creating a new market strategy--the first one in the history of ebooks, mind you--that leaves authors in worse shape than they were before.


To be fair, he's fighting for a world where he gets the lion's share of the money off books and we get a foot in the ass.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2015)

THIS: To be fair, he's fighting for a world where he gets the lion's share of the money off books


Yes, It's folly to think Amazon put in all this time and effort to make money for someone else.

Amazon had a few major pillars of revenue - Media (Books, Movies, Games, CD) and Electronics.

Now they're adding more (Cloud Services). However, those two are still their main 2 pillars.

To protect the Media pillar Amazon is trying to see where the market goes and catch up.

That's why we have

For Books - Kindle & Kindle Books & now Kindle Unlimited
For Music - Amazon Music
For Movies - Amazon Digital Sales & Prime Movies/Video
For Games - Amazon Digital Game Downloads & App Store


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Um, Amazon's big money comes from owning a frankly horrifying amount of the internet's infrastructure including government servers.


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> The article? Oh, it was about:
> 
> The same 'F U, Got Mine' attitude that bough you 'Amazon should charge to upload books' and 'Amazon should have quality controls before a book goes live' brings you, "Kill permafree so all these unknown authors won't have proper tools to rise up and challenge my comfortable position.'
> 
> A Jerry Bruckheimer Movie. Starring Tyler Perry, Liv Tyler, and Matthew Perry as Peppy the Unicorn.


That's what I got out of it, too.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> No, when every first book is free for too many authors, authors will start making the second book free too to get a leg up on the authors who only have Book 1 free.  In a pricing war, the consumer wins, but the businesses eventually run out.
> 
> I can't get the youtube to embed . . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDYvwUQ8e6w


As Rosalind points out -- it's not a pricing war. If every first book was/is free, great. The readers read it, and then decide if they want to find out what happens next. 
The younger generations are used to all samples being free. Games, songs, CDs. It doesn't stop them from buying. It encourages them to invest in what they really care about.

My daughter tried Animal Jams free for sixty days. As a non-member, she couldn't unlock the best stuff. She finally talked me into buying her a 5.95 a month membership so she could. She then bought the book for twenty bucks. Now three of her good friends have memberships too.

She loves an indie book series called _Peter and the Vampire_. I picked up the first one for free. Now I'm having to buy everything that guy writes.

She listens to certain songs for free, then insists I buy them for her.

Authors will not have to set two books free, because if the readers are *hooked* with the first, they will buy the next.


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

Lisa Grace said:


> Authors will not have to set two books free, because if the readers are *hooked* with the first, they will buy the next.


QFT.

The reason free trials are so popular is that they open pockets. Simple.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

I wasn't going to get into this... dang it. But this is important stuff. Our future.

So imagine a time where the first book is always free. Everybody's. Doesn't matter if it's a series, or non-fiction, or whatever. Just visualize this for a minute. In the then-current world of publishing, it is a right of passage to give away your first book. It's the only way to get any attention.

So, after a few years of this, how does the next writer create separation? Price is no longer a differentiator. What do you do? 

"Everybody does the first book for free. I'll put up two books for free, maybe even do a box set for free," resolves the aspiring young author.

We've already had one author on this thread state that they tried the first two books of a 4-title series for free. It didn't work. But, what if that writer had just posted and said, "And the sales of the follow-on books skyrocketed. My income is up. I'm starting a new series, and you bet I'm giving away the first two books for free! It has been great!" 

I guarantee there would be several others scratching their chin and saying, "That worked for her. Nothing else is working for me. I'll give it a try."

In three years (or five, or whatever), is it going to be commonplace to give away two books? When does it go to three? Or four? Is the number of free titles that can be published the new gate keeper?

"I'm sorry Miss Newauthor, but our agency doesn't accept any manuscripts unless the author has five full length tomes ready to go. After all, you have to give away four of your books on Amazon before you can sell the fifth for any income. Just keep writing for another two years, and drop me a note when you have at least six books ready-to-go," said the agent.

"And in the publishing news today, Amazon announced that KDP will now only allow books to be published in sets of three, with the first two being free."

I would argue that this could well be a very slippery slope. Just because we're not physically seeing the end result of a trend doesn't mean the trend is false. It just means we're not there yet. Could happen. Might not. To dismiss the possibility is just as shortsighted as betting your entire future on the trend's predicted outcome. Neither is sage.

If I would have told you 10 years ago that the surest way to make it as an author was to give away free books, would you have believed me?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Again, Joe: It's not about the price.

And actually, Kindle Shorts fly in the face of length mattering. Whether it's 10% of a book, a thousand words, or a hundred thousand, isn't the issue.

I tried Glutino crackers free at a Sam's Club. Just one. I thought they would taste like cardboard, They don't; they're buttery and light. I now buy Glutino's regularly. Have i tried other free crackers? Yes.
I've tried just about every single brand free first, somewhere. Does it mean I will buy them all?
Some I do, some I don't. 
It wasn't the number of any of the crackers I tried free that influenced me. It's just one.

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard to understand. I have customers who received _The 15th Star_ free, and now you can see from the reviews they state *they search for more of my books to buy* and read. I have customers who pay 6.99 for a book I used to give away free.

I don't care if everyone has a book *free.* I assume they do. Everyone has the *lookinside* function, there are libraries, subscription services, and a million ways to get ebooks and paperbacks free. 
It's about if I gave them enough pleasure, satisified what they're looking for that only a Lisa Grace book can give them, they will then buy my books.

It really isn't about *what they can get free*, but more of "I'll take a chance on this, and if it has value to me, then I'll happily pay."

Another thought:

Water is free out of my tap (well, my well water is). It's perfectly drinkable. I can't believe all the places I can get free water. McDonald's, Panera, etc... shoot, they'll even throw in a slice of lemon, ice cubes, and let me have all the free refills I want.

Yet I still buy Perrier (have a ten pack in my fridge), La Croix orange flavored, and Zephyrhills Springwater, all which I paid for.

So even with an over abundance of free water everywhere, I still go out and buy it. You would think with all the free water available everywhere I'd be crazy to pay for the stuff.

Water companies aren't giving more away free, and Perrier isn't lowering it's price, because they know I'm buying their water for the taste. 
Authors have unique voices. Dozens of authors imitate Stephen King, but there is still only one of him. If you are confident in your voice and its uniqueness, you're not so worried that others can provide what you do.

If you don't want to offer readers a free book, don't. But libraries have probably been responsible for the sales of more books than can be measured. All my favorite authors I read free when I was a kid. Then, as an adult with spendable cash, I went out and bought everything those authors wrote. Free does not decrease value, it creates it.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> We've already had one author on this thread state that they tried the first two books of a 4-title series for free. It didn't work. But, what if that writer had just posted and said, "And the sales of the follow-on books skyrocketed. My income is up. I'm starting a new series, and you bet I'm giving away the first two books for free! It has been great!"


Okay, maybe people havne't read every post in the thread, so let's make sure they can't miss it.

*deep breath*

*THAT ISN'T WHAT IS HAPPENING OR WILL EVER HAPPEN BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK.*


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

No, seriously, why are we bothering with that scare-tactic hypotheticals when we have stone cold fact that it isn't a thing and doesn't work. We have to authors who tried it (me and Megan) who have actually done it for realsies no foolin' and both of us stopped because it didn't wor and will never work because when you stop and think about it, it's invalidating the whole point of first book free.

You might as well theorize that if someone came on here saying they stuffed live otters down their pants and sold fifty thousand books than people would do that too.

OF COURSE a bunch of people would do it, then they would stop soon after because it wouldn't sell more books in the cold, harsh light of reality and also all the infected otter wounds. People come on here all the time with stupid get rich crap that will suck and fail, we don't instantly proclaim the sky is falling.

First free on the other hand is a thing that works, is proven to work and is even promoted by some platforms. Why? *Because it makes money by.... SELLING BOOK 2*.

Sweet Georgia Brown, people.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Like Lisa said, it's not a slippery slope because one sample gives the customer a way to make up his or her mind. Less than one is, well, zero, and zero doesn't help anybody. We want to offer more than zero ways to try our products for free. It doesn't logically follow that _more than *one*_ is even better than _more than *zero*_.

You might protest that Look Inside resolves that issue, but I don't think it does. First off, because there's an expectation--especially among millennials--that we'll make a finished product available and not try to pitch the reader before it's over. I hate all variations on "Subscribe/Pay/Purchase to read/watch/listen to the rest of this article/book/movie/song/album!" Demonstrate some confidence, some self-esteem, some respect for the customers and have faith that they'll pay for the products they enjoy. They always have in the past.

The other issue with Look Inside is that oftentimes, the first 10% is grossly misleading. I bought a book for $5.99 and absolutely adored it for the first 15%. The last 85%? Not so much. It was a completely different narrative, completely different tone, completely different characters, completely different themes after that. I'm a lot less inclined to trust the first 10% of anything at this point.

One complete book is a great sample size. I know you can write something that appeals to me cover to cover. I have a sense of what you're promising me over the rest of your series, and I've got a sense about whether you'll make good. That's a great first step in converting me as a fan.

Typically--and correct me here if I'm wrong--we see rates ranging from 1-50% conversions from book 1 to book 2. From book 2 to book 3, it's more like 70-90%. What kind of competitive advantage would you gain by offering book 2 up for free? I mean sure, maybe you don't convert as well as that, but that probably means your product isn't as good as your competitors in the first place, and they don't have to beat you on price. They've already got you on quality.

There's loads of reasons why I don't think it follows that one free book leads to two free books, &c. It's a logical fallacy. Saying "But just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean that it couldn't," is crazypants. There's a great many things that haven't happened and never will. We know they won't, because it just doesn't work like that. Giving away all of the books for free as a business strategy is one of those things.

It just doesn't work like that.

*P.S.* Except for giving free things to pirates, mind you. Anybody who watches Black Sails knows what happens if you decide to put up a fight after they've hoisted the Black.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

All right. Writers have bills. Understandable.

But why do we always have to equate the value of a book by how much it costs?

Didn't you ever walk into a used book store and pick up a book or two for something
like fifty cents, and later, having read them both, go wow! Crime masterpieces.

This happened with me many years before when I discovered James M. Cain'es
Double Indemnity and The Postman Always Rings twice.

Something worth pondering: if all books were FREE, would they lose their real value to the reader (s)?

I cannot tell you how many fine books & plays I have discovered over the years in used book stores (that i paid pennies for) that continue to have a powerful impact.
Personally, if I could, I'd make everything I wrote totally free. Ultimately, I do not write for money, I write to be read.
Yes, we get it: next time you're in your neighborhood supermarket...try walking out without paying. 
My two (American) pesos.


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## Deborahsmith author (Jul 23, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> Jeff Bezos has sworn a public oath to lower the cost of books and he's making good on it. His goal, however, is not for everything to be free. Nobody wants that. All he's fighting for is a world where we sell books at a fraction of the cost to a multiple of the audience. A world where more readers can afford to read and more writers can afford to write. None of us wants to jeopardize that by creating a new market strategy--the first one in the history of ebooks, mind you--that leaves authors in worse shape than they were before.
> 
> Remember: things have only been getting better for indies and for authors in general. This is a golden age. Think back to five or ten years ago and tell me that it was a better time to write for a living. Think back to any time in the past. The post-Hocking days have been _anything_ but a race to the bottom.
> 
> *TLR:* Authors should cheer the [expletive] up. Life is awesome right now.


Jeff Bezos has no interest whatsoever in whether readers read or writers write. Could not care less. It's widely known that he chose books as his entree into retailing because bookselling was so ripe for disruption. His moral code is based on making money. Period. The total and complete and only value he sees in books is their ability to lure the right demographic through the doors of his department store. Books, along with their rowdy reader forums and contentious reviews and all the other vox populi stuff that makes people linger at the Zon site, are part of the content/entertainment circus you get when you drop off the kids at Amazon Land. That's about all. The revenue they bring to the company is a fraction of the more than $100 billion the Zon rakes in every year. Bezos' reason for driving the prices down is to bait his hooks with fresh meat every year, not serve the greater good of society and certainly not the good of the book world.

Is it a great time to be a writer? Better than the past? Nope. About the same number of writers will make a living as before; about the same tiny percentage will become rich and famous, and 95 percent will labor in obscurity for scraps. Just like always. Because the reading pool stays about the same, proportionately, in each generation, and the amount of cream that rises stays about the same, too. What's changing is the ability of massive corporations to dip into the pockets of many, many more writers than ever before. So if anything, it's a great time to be a corporation selling books and hosting writers and over-charging fees to deliver their digital content and scraping more off the top all the time. BTW, Amazon just announced a new app (not free, it's got a price tag) that will make it easy for readers to convert their print books into ebooks (Kindle format only, natch.) So if you've got copies out there in POD through CreateSpace, the Zon can now cannibalize your ebook sales in a whole new way.

It's a great time to be Amazon, that's for sure!


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Deborahsmith author said:


> It's a great time to be Amazon, that's for sure!


That's all bullshit.

More writers than ever are being paid for their work, and more than ever are earning a living off of it. The data aren't hard to find. "Scraps" these days means hundreds of dollars a month on average, instead of query letter ashes and confetti. Bezos has been paying out money to us hand over fist for baiting his hooks, and I couldn't care less whether that's secretly motivated more by his desire to make a buck or his desire for a renaissance of the human spirit-not as if any of us are in it exclusively for one reason or the other, is it? Some of us care more about art than royalties, some are all about that scrilla, but ultimately we're all looking to make some money off of books and Jeff's the man with the plan. I salute him for that. We all do, if only tacitly, by accepting his terms and his checks.

If you want to go on with the half-empty, woebegone doomsaying, I guess that's your prerogative. Doesn't make it true, however, and I'm grateful I get to live in reality instead of your dystopian vision of it. Aside from a tiny minority of successful tradpub titans, I think most writers are glad of it too. Far too many folks around here who've bought brand new lives for themselves thanks to the upheaval that Amazon set in motion.


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

Deborahsmith author said:


> Is it a great time to be a writer? Better than the past? Nope. About the same number of writers will make a living as before; about the same tiny percentage will become rich and famous, and 95 percent will labor in obscurity for scraps. Just like always. Because the reading pool stays about the same, proportionately, in each generation, and the amount of cream that rises stays about the same, too.


The pool of people who read might stay the same, although I'd be interested in your data for that considering higher literacy rates worldwide. The amount of books being read, however, is not static. When my grandmother was a kid, books were hugely expensive items and rarely purchased: an L. M. Montgomery or Mary Grant Bruce for each birthday and Christmas, cherished and read to death. Now, greedy and spoiled creature that I am, I can read a book a day despite not exactly being rich.

For ME, personally, (because it's all about me) it's certainly better than in the past. What I write are basically Girl's Own novels of the types Angela Brazil used to write in the last century--with lesbians in them. Magical lesbians. I released the first one less than a month ago, and I've, quite to my own surprise, found an audience.

Twenty years ago, I would not have found that audience, because what agent or trade publisher would have cared about reaching such a small niche? Yes, from where a lot of niche and minority writers are standing, self publishing and micropresses are a wonderful new world.

I don't write for the money. I agree with the post above about the value of writing being independent of finance. I seriously considered just going free on everything. But it seems contradictory to me that Bezos, who is first and last an entrepreneur, is slammed for wanting to make money when the first post linked to an article by a writer who wanted to make money.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this has already been said.

Comparing the price of a movie ticket to the price of a movie download is pointless. The movie cinema has to pay for the building, the equipment to show the movie, the ticket salesperson, the usher, etc etc. of course it costs more. I would guess that the payment to the actors or the director ends up about the same per person.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> I think people have been adequately trained by almost every kind of industry to expect try-before-you-buy free trials. You go to Baskin Robbins and you can try the ice cream for free.


While I don't like comparisons of free ebooks to "samples" in other industries (those are either smaller versions or limited time or limited time before the original goes to paid), I do think free helps--eventually. As a book buyer, I've downloaded free books. A few of them I have read. A few of those have inspired me to find more by the author. What helps me most, though, is hearing about a book in a conversation, online or not, or reading a book discussion, or the You Might Like algorithms. However, that being said, you do wonder if the conversation started and grew in some corners because the work was free.

Anyway, I'm not against free (though I am against comparisons that don't quite work and give a not-quite-true impression). In fact, this year I'm working on more controllable (and less Amazon-ToS-angering) free, such as posting on my website and other websites like Wattpad.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Kirkee said:


> But why do we always have to equate the value of a book by how much it costs?


I think because it's part of the equation to a reader and a writer. As a reader, it does work as a benchmark. If I paid a lot of money for a book and was disappointed, my disappointment is greater because I feel "cheated." (Now, someone else may think it was a great book and a great money value. Readers' mileage varies.) Heck, I've even picked up 25c books at yard sales that weren't quite right for me, and I judge those as not worth the quarter paid. For me.

As a writer, if I don't earn enough to continue a work, at some point, I'll probably stop that series or try different ones or do something different. (Although I'm still the type that finds it hard to completely give up on a work I really like.)

Money comes into it. It's a part of the way many people judge value. Especially for people like me--I'm very price conscious because I don't have much money.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Interesting article, Jan - and thanks for posting it. 



MyraScott said:


> "Free" is a marketing cost. It doesn't devalue the work itself.


I think it's not quite as simple as this suggests. It can certainly devalue the perception of the author's work, and in marketing (which is what we have to do, when we choose to self-publish), the perception is every bit as important as the reality.



MyraScott said:


> It's like saying that giving out a sample of ice cream means that consumers will never buy ice cream again.


Again, I don't quite agree. I think it's like saying that the perception of one brand of ice-cream, compared with the perception of other brands, can become devalued. And that certainly _does_ happen with ice-cream, and with other commodities, too, including books.



cinisajoy said:


> Your value is determined by number of readers not the retail price of your book.


The two can be related, though. Again, it's about the perception vs the reality, to some extent. We have to decide whether to compete with self-published authors who give a book away free and sell the rest for $2.99/$3.99, or with trade-published authors whose books cost four or five times as much. The market does have different value perceptions of these pricing policies, and I think it's unrealistic to ignore that.



scribblr said:


> On the one side you have the professional authors who know that their ability to make a living doing what they love is made more difficult to achieve while they have to compete with free books. On the other side are the new authors who are trying to earn a place at the table, the authors whose skills and/or abilities are inadequate to ever earn a place at the table, and the hucksters who see opportunities to make a little extra money by gaming the system.


Yes, exactly. The new authors who are "trying to earn a place at the table" can also perhaps be sub-divided into those who choose to compete with self-published authors useinf free/low prices, and the latest HarperCollins author trying to earn her place at the table, at HarperCollins prices.

Many readers neither know now care who the publisher is, but trade publishers don't feel obliged to introduce their newest authors' work at low/free prices.

They've been in the industry for a lot longer than we have, have done extensive market research, and (by all the recent accounts I see) are currently expanding at a considerably faster rate than is true of the self-published "industry". We dismiss their expertise success and choose to compete in different ways at our peril, in my opinion.



scribblr said:


> I see no solution to this problem. The newbies aren't going to be patient as long as they believe free will make their future.


Exactly. And not only that, but even the ones who gradually learn that that doesn't work for them (of whom we hear so much less, of course, because they're mostly not still here and mostly not still posting!) typically don't dissuade the next "generation" from making all the same mistakes.



scribblr said:


> And they will never understand how much damage they are doing to their future by encouraging the perception that all books should be free.


Indeed - or just by encouraging the perception that "some books should be free".

It's like everything else, in a way: it all depends on where you get your "information" and what you come to regard as "normal". It's all too easy for aspiring self-publishers to take the opinions of a small minority as being "representative of an industry" when they're actually very far from it. 



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> It's ridiculous to boil down any author's success to "well they went permafree, that's why."


Completely ridiculous, yes. But no amount of pointing it out will prevent some from choosing to believe that, themselves, whether they actually express it in those words (or indeed in any words) or not.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Yeah, yeah, yeah ... everyone here is just being PC. We all know who caused the fall in book prices by flooding the market with digital drivel like ebooks written about Loki in third person present tense (My eyes! Oh, my eyes!!!!)

It's all the DAMNABLE SELF-PUBLISHERS!

They ruined everything. It's supply and demand 'yo.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Great discussion, folks! Lots of strong opinions. Thanks for keeping it reasonably civil.  Two things, one, inside voices (Vaal)  and two, leave the unicorns out of this. Pretty soon we'll have this:










Just sayin'. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Betsy


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Mmmm ... sweet and tasty unicorn meat. Will it make me a virgin?


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> Mmmm ... sweet and tasty unicorn meat. Will it make me a virgin?


Aaaaand I just choked on my coffee.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

As I said, this is a really interesting discussion.  I suspect that at some point there is going to have to be a lot of agreein' to disagree. 

As a reader, free catches my eye.  Sales catch my eye.  Pretty covers catch my eye.  Interesting posts by authors here catch my eye.  Recommendations by friends catch my eye.  As a binge reader, of series and of authors, if I read the first in a series or one by an author, I'll binge read the rest of the series or others by the author.  And also, I don't usually know how much I paid for a book unless I go back to Amazon to learn more about it (Amazon will tell me I already bought the book and show me my invoice. )  Mostly I just browse my device looking for the next read.  And I have many roads to get there; free is just one of them.

Betsy


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Weirdling said:


> While I don't like comparisons of free ebooks to "samples" in other industries (those are either smaller versions or limited time or limited time before the original goes to paid)


Here's why a free ebook is comparable to a free sample:

When you get that little cup of ice cream, you get a taste of the full experience of that ice cream; the texture, the taste, the mouth feel--everything. Same with detergent: you get that little box and it lets you see how well it cleans, whether or not it makes your clothes itchy, the smell--again, the whole thing you're buying detergent for.

There are no surprises. You won't then buy the whole carton of ice cream and find a big ol' hunk of pork in the middle. You won't get the big box of detergent and find out it burns holes in your clothes after ten minutes of wearing them.

With books, the first 10% is not the full experience with the author. You won't learn from a Look Inside whether they like wild, shocking swerves that make no sense. You won't learn that they rush endings, do them badly or use deus ex machinas like they're going out of style. You won't know if they make heavy use of cliffhangers. You won't know if they kill off the protagonist you like 11% in and what follows is a genre-shift that spans the series.

The first book you get from an author is their audition. It lets you see how they do things, what they're capable of and gives a glimpse of where they're likely to grow.

Anecdotally, if I had read only the first 10% of Wizard's First Rule and made my buying choices based on that, I probably would have bought that and the next three books in the series. Which would have been a horrible mistake, because at 40% we meet a villain who isn't evil enough without the author literally making them a pedophile for now reason and at the 70% mark, it reveals itself to be not at all the kind of book I even want to be associated with, and I threw my Goodwill copy against the wall hard enough to dislodge the paperback cover. If I had paid for the other books in the series, I would have stopped trusting the publisher writ large.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

You look for birds (whistle) you're gonna find birds.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

eleanorberesford said:


> What I write are basically Girl's Own novels of the types Angela Brazil used to write in the last century--with lesbians in them. Magical lesbians. I released the first one less than a month ago, and I've, quite to my own surprise, found an audience.


I just want to say I think this sounds like a brilliant idea. I've been reading a bit of Angela Brazil lately and it could definitely do with more magical lesbians.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Magical lesbians. I released the first one less than a month ago, and I've, quite to my own surprise, found an audience.


I'm on Tumblr. There are quite a number of young women on Tumblr who identify as lesbians and love fantasy. They deserve books with magic with girls like them. (I can imagine some boys wouldn't care if the girls were lesbians--they'd just care if she was kick butt--and would totally get why she was into girls, because they are too.)


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

C. Gockel said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah ... everyone here is just being PC. We all know who caused the fall in book prices by flooding the market with digital drivel like ebooks written about Loki in third person present tense (My eyes! Oh, my eyes!!!!)
> 
> It's all the DAMNABLE SELF-PUBLISHERS!
> 
> They ruined everything. It's supply and demand 'yo.


LOL, you are sooooo right! We're the problem!!!!

And now parts of the problem are blaming a sub-section of the problem for creating a _problem_ for the problem.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Hey folks.
Harper Collins runs $1.99 sales.  I know I picked up two books last week. 
Now as to cost value vs perception. .. I think that depends on how one buys and reads books.  Is Sookie Stackhouse only worth 25 cents because that is what I pay for her books in paperback?    J D Robb only worth 50 cents?    
No, they have the same value as all other books.  
Those of us that buy many many books, do not keep track of cost. 
Heck, I gave away the second most expensive cookbook I ever bought.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

*************


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

In the spirit of continuing to beat a dead unicorn, I have to say that it amazes me that Kobo and the other sites don't reciprocate the Amazon policy of limiting the number of free days.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> As for the making Book #2 free debate going on, I will point out that one of the most successful indies still posting here made plenty of bank by making not only Book #2 but #3 and even #4 permafree. So for some it does work - and in spades. The limiting factor, though, might well be centered around what percentage of the author's inventory is free. 2 books out of 5 free may not work, whereas 5 books out of 30 might.


Books 2, 3, and 4 in a series? Or books 2, 3, and 4 in a catalog?


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Vaalingrade, maybe the problem is I'm being too literal.  I get a sample of ice cream; I buy the same flavor I sampled.  I download a free ebook; I don't buy that same ebook.  And a sample of vanilla by XYZ won't tell me what their chocolate tastes like.  However, ebook XYZ can tell me something about its author and series, but only to an extent.  A sophomore book may not be as good as the first; a different series may not be as good as or like XYZ.

ETA: Now that I'm off my tablet and on my laptop, I can tweak my post better.  One thing being, my thoughts on permafree Kindle, Kobo, etc. ebooks is this: to mitigate the issue of the reader liking some series, not all, it's probably best to make the first in every series free.  If I were to do the Kindle/Kobo/etc. type free, that's probably what I'll end up doing.  You can't do much about intra-series losses (related to this problem of sample not being predictive enough). 

Also, I probably am being too literal for this conversation.    That's the problem with my ADD sometimes; I get hung up that way.  I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of free ebooks; I'm just arguing against an analogy I can't wrap my mind around.  And I'm not trying to be pedantic; I'm trying to make a point--analogies help somewhat, but ebook freebies just are a different kettle of fish than food freebies, etc, and we need to treat them differently too because of that.  That's my point.

ETA2:  In other words, I think the analogy of free ice cream and free ebooks is useful to the extent it gets you thinking outside of the box (you sell ebooks, not ice cream).  But after that point, I feel it's time to drop the analogy and focus on judging ebooks by ebook standards--how to implement it, and what is it doing for you and others--instead of going back to "samples work for ice cream."


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

RE: Deborah Smith Author:

Your abysmal/dismal & unproven take on Mr. B & ebooks & writers in general
left me in stitches. I can't seem to stop laughing.  

Betsy: love your take on FREE.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Weirdling said:


> Vaalingrade, maybe the problem is I'm being too literal. I get a sample of ice cream; I buy the same flavor I sampled. I download a free ebook; I don't buy that same ebook. And a sample of vanilla by XYZ won't tell me what their chocolate tastes like. However, ebook XYZ can tell me something about its author and series, but only to an extent. A sophomore book may not be as good as the first; a different series may not be as good as or like XYZ.


Yes, but you do get a very good idea of what you'll get, just like Ben and Jerry might change thier formula for chunky monkey next week.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

555aaa said:


> In the spirit of continuing to beat a dead unicorn, I have to say that it amazes me that Kobo and the other sites don't reciprocate the Amazon policy of limiting the number of free days.


Because the free days concept is so howlingly stupid and leaving so much money on the table that Amazon needed to slap a band-aid on their own mistake and price match to free.

Free Books drive books sales. Full Stop.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**********


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Yes, but you do get a very good idea of what you'll get, just like Ben and Jerry might change thier formula for chunky monkey next week.


Oh, my, let's not get into that (recipe changes)! My family has run into that with generic or lesser known soda brands, and it sucked, sucked, sucked. If we had no choice, we weathered it; if we did have a choice, we went elsewhere. And sometimes it's not so much a recipe change, but something to do with the batch or specific factory.

Anyway on free ebook = "good idea" or "good taste" of the author in general, I have to be a little too nitpicky again. 

In my experiences, I say the accuracy of the _free ebook_ representing _the series_ is about 70% or so--until the series starts getting long. After that point, it probably drops to about 50%. I say this mostly in terms of experience with traditional series--and it makes sense with them; say, a 5-book series = five+ years' difference between book one and book two. By that point I might not like where you (general you) are taking me or I may have gotten left behind. _Or_ to make an analogy  , it's like saying watching _Supernatural_ Season 1 will give you a good idea on what _Supernatural _Season 10 is like--to some extent, yes, but I can tell you as a long-term fan, something has changed, because while I like certain seasons in the series, I barely like the later seasons. Namely, my favorite is the pro-Castiel seasons; I rank the before-Castiel seasons next behind that; and the season right before the Leviathans and those thereafter, well, I like those the least. (And of course, others think it went downhill with Castiel's introduction, so YMMV).

And then on accuracy of that _sample _(free ebook) for the _author _as a whole (across all series and works), then I say that's only spot on for about 25% of the time. I like Carol Berg's _Rai-Kirah_ (sp?) series the best. I kinda like her Song of the Beast book (at least, I want to finish it) next. But she wrote more romancy book after that, and I kinda forgot about her and moved on from her. For all I know, she returned to what I liked in the R-K series later on, but I don't know, because I'm not interested enough yet to hunt her works down and find out. A more recent example. I love McKinley's _Damar _series. Enough so that I replaced my lost book in that series so I could reread it. Then I bought _Pegasus_. I stuck with it for about 75%, but then I just got ... distracted and drawn out of it. Now, even though I paid a bit for it and I'm price conscious, it's going on my "to donate" pile unfinished. And because of my pre-_Pegasus_ experience, I was all for hunting down a few other books of hers I knew I owned but couldn't locate (_Spindle's End_ was one, and there was another too). Now _post-Pegasus_, I'm moving her down on my to-read list. I now have to be "in the mood" to read a new-to-me McKinley. Which is a mite better than where I have Berg ranked, I have to say.

ETA: Another example. Now, on the other hand, I love Georgette Heyer so much, I bought every book I could after reading a few. Even her non-Regency ones. I'll re-read her Regency ones, and keep the Regency ones I don't like so much, but I say I like 90% of her Regencies. And I'm willing to give her non-Regency historicals a try, and even her mysteries. And I'm not too likely to donate any of those even if I never read them. That's a case of my experience with the author matching up very very well to an early experience with her (not free, by the way. I read a book blurb in a nonfic book about Regency. Then I devoured what I could at a library. Then I bought, bought, bought!). I've had a similar experience/satisfaction with Barbara Metzger. Read a novella of hers in an anthology, found her to be like Heyer, and started buying quite a few of her books. Ran across one I didn't like--too racy--but I still intend on sticking with her. And keeping that book.

Or in other words, except for Mrs. Heyer, most authors would hate to have me as their reader.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> You recently commented on "Godzilla's" post, Dolphin. She made Books #1-3 of one series permafree and #1-4 of another permafree. I think you'd agree it worked for her


Yeah, fair enough. Rock on. Girl earned $700,000 last year, so I hope I someday have work I can debase and devalue as thoroughly.

Think about that, slippery slope crowd: her readers literally spent _over one million dollars_ on her books last year. Do you really think it would've been more, and not less if her work wasn't being downloaded, distributed, and enjoyed for free? Do you really think that having a few more paid titles would've made up for the overall visibility that she's gained?

Granted, she's an outlier. One case doesn't prove anything. Gives us an example of someone whose work has flourished with multiple permafrees in a series, however, and I daresay it hasn't devalued her work or decreased her royalties. I'd be more than willing to run the same experiment if I could.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

When you have 50 titles, to have $1,000,000 in royalties, you need each title to sell on average $1667 a month. With a $2 royalty, that's 833copies a month. If you're wide released, that's 100 copies a month on 8 venues (kindle, nook, kobo, ibooks, etc. etc.). 

If you have 50 books at $4.99, you make roughly $3.50 a book. Now you only need 476 sales per book each month.

And if you have 50 books at $8.99, you make roughly $6 a book, and now you only need 277 sales a month per title on average.

I think having FIFTY titles probably has a big part to do with it, too.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I think having FIFTY titles probably has a big part to do with it, too.


Naturally, so we should never say never. The true competitive advantage here isn't that she's got so many _free_ books-it's that she's got so many _books_, full stop. She's investing more permafrees in marketing efforts because the math works out. People spend more money on her books when she gives more free books away.

Where we seem to part ways is that I think more people spending more money on your books tends to increase the value of your work-not decrease it-even if you got there by offering several months of your writing for free. There isn't a slippery slope.


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> I just want to say I think this sounds like a brilliant idea. I've been reading a bit of Angela Brazil lately and it could definitely do with more magical lesbians.


I always thought so.  (And thank you!) I am very much writing what I want to exist into existence.


C. Gockel said:


> I'm on Tumblr. There are quite a number of young women on Tumblr who identify as lesbians and love fantasy. They deserve books with magic with girls like them. (I can imagine some boys wouldn't care if the girls were lesbians--they'd just care if she was kick butt--and would totally get why she was into girls, because they are too.)


I really need to learn to use Tumblr better in order to reach that market. As it is, I wouldn't be surprised if every single one of my "YA" books was bought by an adult.

Anyway, back on topic, last night, when I reached the midpoint in a book I had got free in that it was part of a PWYW bundle I bought for the sake of different books, I realised I didn't want it to stop, so I went to look and see if there were sequels. There were. Two. And other books by the author.

I wouldn't have shelled out for the first book. Now, the author has a fan with one click buying enabled. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Loss leaders are used, not to devalue anything, but to add market value to total output.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

This is anecdotal of course,  but I just went to Author Central. The day I went permafree, my rank went up 40,000 points and stayed at that higher level from then on. My rank has gone up and down since that date, but it has never gone anywhere near as low as it was before permafree.  Not even once.  

Again I'm one person,  but  I'm sure that I'm one of many.


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## Yonderer (Jan 3, 2011)

There's another aspect of this that has escaped attention... or it seems so to me. It's the "True Pricing" of a work from the Author's perspective.

Consider that the % of a books sales price that the Author actually sees is vastly different between Traditional paper publishing and Ebook/indie publishing. 

My understanding is that 6% would be a lot for an Author to expect in traditional paper publishing. Correct me if that's wrong. But for the sake of argument let's use that number. So... the big time author with a big time publishing house gets 6% of his $15.99 high dollar paperback.

Now then there's me... selling for a lowly $3.99 per downloaded ebook... His $15.99 nets him .959 CENTS per book. My $3.99 "Cheapie" ebook returns me... yes you punched that calculator right... $2.79. 

So... when I put the first book of my series as FREE... which continues to net me a sell through approaching and often breaking through a 10% sell through reward... is the value of that book devalued? or denigrated in some way? Not a friggin' chance! It is a VALUE that terrifies "Traditional Publishing" because the world that is coming has made an end run which eliminates any need for them. 

The days of the agent and the "Publishing house" are rapidly waning. 

Write the best stories you can produce. Edit them to the best of your ability. Present them to the market with your greatest skill. Learn and refine your skills with each book. I assure you your readers will notice. 

And grant power to the pen of the artist.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Yonderer said:


> Consider that the % of a books sales price that the Author actually sees is vastly different between Traditional paper publishing and Ebook/indie publishing.


Right, absolutely. I think that it's good if books are cheaper for readers, because I want people to read. In many cases we're offering books to readers at a tenth the cost of a tradpub hardcover, and we _still_ get to keep a larger cut of the transaction. I think that's better for everybody involved.

The beauty of it is that if more people are able to afford more books--e.g. number of units sold goes up--and if we're still earning as much or more on each unit as we would've in the olden days of tradpub, we've simply made more royalties for ourselves out of thin air. Books are worth less, yet authors are worth more, and readers get to read. Everybody wins.

Actually, Jeff Bezos made that market out of thin air just as much as we did. Bless his twisted, black heart.

*P.S.* How does money work for consumers? I can afford to spend $30 on _a_ book? Or I can afford to spend $30 on _books_? Logically, you have to assume that you're going to price yourself out of some readers' range if you try to hold your prices higher. Not because they don't value books, but because they don't have that much money to spend, or they can get two books from other authors who they'll enjoy for the price of one of yours.

I think that's been lost as well. Someone with a smaller budget may still place a profound value on books. They might be priceless to that person-especially _your_ books-but if buying one of them means her kids go hungry one night this pay period, she's not going to read you. You've made it impossible for her to do so. That has a lot of consequences that I wouldn't enjoy either as a businessperson or a human person.

I don't think it follows that you've devalued books if you've made them available to more people who couldn't otherwise afford them. Volume is valuable too.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Was chatting with some friends tonight.    Here is my personal take from that conversation. 
This is on free and discounted books.
Author A has a perma-free.  I kind of liked his style.  Then he put a different series first for 99 cents.    I tried that one.    Bought the entire series.
Author B, I was given a guarantee by a friend that I would like the book or the friend would buy me any book I want.    Needless to say, I have bought all of his books.  
Author C has put 5 of her 6 books free but because of the way she ended the first 5, I don't want to pay 3.99 for book 6 to find out if there is an ultimate conclusion or will she leave it open again.  Just not worth it to me.  

Author D also did several free books but because nothing was concluded and the author just whined through books 2 and 3, and copied and pasted the same cliffhanger from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4, she could not pay me to even give her a free download. 

So what is your book worth? Depends on the book and the reader.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Harper Collins runs $1.99 sales.


This is true, of course, but I think you know, really, that those are very rare exceptions, Cin: they're not by any stretch of the imagination the norm. 



Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Who learned the lessons you're inferring, Zoe?


Apologies for the ambiguity. I was referring to the very substantial numbers of new/aspiring authors who self-publish their work in ways which devalue it, adopting free/very low prices as part of a process that doesn't work out for them, who often become disillusioned, and appreciate that (whether they understand why or not) they've basically "copied something that didn't work for them". I don't for a moment suggest that that applies to all new/aspiring authors, obviously, but it does to many.

Those are typically the ones not still posting here over the long term.

Their perspective is under-represented.

The consensus of opinion among forum posters is the consensus of a small, self-selected group.

It's terribly easy, especially in forums, to get the impression that "an industry" is being represented, when actually all that's being represented is a small self-selected group which may not be typical of their "overall type" at all. And in this instance, in particular, there are reasons why that's very likely to be so.

As a statistician would be very quick to point out, i_n a given context self-selected people with one specific outcome-experience are far more likely to be talking about it than those with very different experiences_.

This was the main point I sought to make. I think it's an essential and fundamental point of interpretation of "forum conversations", and unfortunately it's one of which very, very few people take account.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

zoe tate said:


> This is true, of course, but I think you know, really, that those are very rare exceptions, Cin: they're not by any stretch of the imagination the norm.
> 
> Apologies for the ambiguity. I was referring to the very substantial numbers of new/aspiring authors who self-publish their work in ways which devalue it, adopting free/very low prices as part of a process that doesn't work out for them, who often become disillusioned, and appreciate that (whether they understand why or not) they've basically "copied something that didn't work for them". I don't for a moment suggest that that applies to all new/aspiring authors, obviously, but it does to many.
> 
> ...


This seems like a case of "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" - one thing happens, therefore it causes the second thing. In other words, you assume that when authors go free and it doesn't work for them, that free must be the problem.

In my perspective, if an author has a permafree and it doesn't work for them, the fact that they have a free book probably isn't the problem. It could be any number of things:
1) Their book isn't that good. Maybe the pacing is wrong, the dialogue is stilted, the plot is thin, it has a ton of typos, the characters aren't very dynamic or likable. Maybe it's a combination of all of the above. Maybe it's just boring. There could be any number of factors under this umbrella. 
2) They're writing in a dead genre OR a saturated one. It would be tough to sell anything in certain genres, and, if you happen to be in an overcrowded one and your book is okay, it doesn't stand out, then it would be difficult to make it as well.
3) Perhaps the book just doesn't meet reader's expectations. It happens. It happened to me. I have three permafrees, two of which do very well for me. The other one, not so much. I have theories on why, but I think that I just didn't meet reader's expectations on the third one. It's New Adult, and if your hero doesn't have at least one tattoo and a cocky attitude in that genre, then you're sunk. No joke. Sure, there are exceptions, but it's an uphill battle if you don't hit the sweet spot in your genre. 
4) They don't promote the permafree. Permafree isn't "set it and forget it." It never has been. If I haven't promoted my permafrees in awhile, I can tell. My sales start to slowly die. I promote, and then, like a flower that has gotten water, they spring back to life. You have to stay on top of things and, when sales start going into the ditch, it's time to bring them out. Again, there are lucky exceptions - authors who have permafrees that stay evergreen with minimal effort. I'm not one of them, unfortunately.

So, what I'm trying to say is, if a writer can't make permafree work, chances are nothing will. And I fail to see how going from free to $9.99 or whatever is going to help that particular writer.

I'm happy to be proven wrong here. If there is a writer out there who can honestly say "I tried free, it didn't work, so I decided to price my novel at trad prices, and now I'm a rousing success," then I'm happy to have a dialogue. I don't think that I've ever read a case like that, though. I HAVE read plenty of people on here who say the opposite though - "I didn't have a freebie, and my sales were meh. I figured I got nothing to lose, so I tried free, and now I have a real career." I'm one of those people, and there have been plenty of others who have chimed in with similar stories.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I was going to say something very similar, Annie. That--of course, not all authors ride permafree to publishing success. That's because most books don't sell. Period. Tradpubbed, self-pubbed. Most books don't sell, for whatever reason.

I guess the real question would be: Taken as a whole, does a permafree-first-in-series make an author more money than not having it? (And I'd argue that using KU and/or Select's "free days" would fit in here too--many routes to success, of which this of course is not the only one.) I suspect the answer would be "yes," based on all the hugely successful indies who still use this tactic despite making a million-plus a year on their books. Their permafree offers a resistance-free way for new readers to find them--and we all need new readers, always. 

But after you get a book into readers' hands, no matter how you do it--cover, blurb, title, advertising, your website, however--it's all on the book. They have to like it enough to read more. They have to like the whole book enough to BUY more. That isn't going to happen with every reader, of course. The extent to which it happens overall is the extent to which ANY tactic will work for any individual author.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I was going to say something very similar, Annie. That--of course, not all authors ride permafree to publishing success. That's because most books don't sell. Period. Tradpubbed, self-pubbed. Most books don't sell, for whatever reason.


I agree with both of you. In addition to Annie's points, I think that if you have a permafree that isn't part of a series, it's not going to work.

I guess I'm not sure why we're having this discussion though. Zoe Tate, you've said you're doing great without permafree--so permafree obviously isn't devaluing your work. Also, comparing self-publishers to anyone with a brand like Harper Collins behind them is a fallacy (I forget the Latin name, but it translates into "an apple to oranges comparison").

Finally, for guys like scribblr and Joe Nobody ... they've been swimming in the pool for a long time. When they started publishing there wasn't as much competition. Now there is. Even though they may not use permafree, they still benefit from their deep backlist and long-term name recognition. (It's possible, depending on their demographic, that permafree would be a very bad choice for them. They just might wind up looking cheap.)

I can never hope to duplicate that "first-fish-in-the-pool" advantage. I can get my first in serial to a lot of people utilizing permafree. I don't call that cheating, I call that adapting to my environment.

*Edited to add: *The month I went from paid to permafree, my income on Amazon went from $70 to $700/month (I only had three ebooks out then). Maybe my first in series was devalued, but my entire catalog suddenly became a lot more valuable. I became more valuable.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

anniejocoby said:


> you assume that when authors go free and it doesn't work for them, that free must be the problem.


I'm afraid you're entirely mistaken, there: I make no such assumption at all. 



anniejocoby said:


> In my perspective, if an author has a permafree and it doesn't work for them, the fact that they have a free book probably isn't the problem.


In that case, respectfully, you, not I, seem to be the person making assumptions, in this conversation. 



anniejocoby said:


> if a writer can't make permafree work, chances are nothing will.


Respectfully, I disagree completely. Indeed, this seems to me to be a classic example of circular argument: a perspective whose logic rests, for its veracity, on the very conclusion toward which it purports to provide evidence.



anniejocoby said:


> I fail to see how going from free to $9.99 or whatever is going to help that particular writer.


Yes, I appreciate that you fail to see it: you've made that very clear on a number of earlier occasions. 

I appreciate from one or two earlier conversations how important it seems to be, to you, to disagree with my opinions on such subjects, but in the interests of avoiding any confrontation or arguing in the forum, I'll leave it there: it seems to me that readers of such threads are inevitably going to form their own perceptions, and it may even be the case - with some perspectives being so much more welcome than others - that nothing I say will change anyone's mind anyway. Well, I don't mind that, at all: actually I have no wish to try to "convince" anyone here of anything.

Thanks for your comments, and apologies for not being able to agree with them at all - as indeed for my belief (again, reinforced by the contents of my inbox here) that _most_ successful "hybrid authors" would probably dissent from them rather strongly. Please excuse my preferring to bow out of this thread, now.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Hmm. I know a lot of successful hybrid authors. They are, in fact, one of the main reasons I finally jumped into the wide and permafree waters. (Well, their advice was the reason.) Virtually all of them use free first in series, whether permanently or temporarily. So I kinda doubt that most successful hybrids are scorning permafree. A quick scan of the bestsellers in my genre would tell you that those folks aren't, anyway. And my genre is, of course, what I care about. I'm sure genres differ, though.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

zoe tate said:


> I'm afraid you're entirely mistaken, there: I make no such assumption at all.
> 
> In that case, respectfully, you, not I, seem to be the person making assumptions, in this conversation.
> 
> ...


Okay, but, with all due respect, my challenge still stands - if there is a writer who has tried permafree, didn't see that it worked, so raised prices to trad prices and suddenly they're selling, (without making any other changes), I would like to hear from them. Honestly. I mean that in all sincerity, because, like I said, contrary to popular belief, I do like to be proved wrong. However, as I indicated above, I don't think that I have ever seen a post like that on this or any other board. On the flip side, there are plenty of writers who stalled until permafree, and now they're doing awesome. In that case, when the increased sales closely follow going permafree, you CAN say "post hoc ergo proctor hoc." Such was the case with me - I went permafree, and that was the only change I made, and my author rankings immediately jumped 40,000 points. Since permafree, my rankings haven't ever gone anywhere near to what they were before I was permafree.

That's all I'm saying...prove me wrong.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Here's what would be a great exercise to do:

Take your genre's best-seller list top 100 Kindle Books. Click on each author in that list, and tally how many of the 100 HAVE a permafree book. This won't tell you who has ever been free before, but it will be a snapshot of data anyway.

I suspect for some genres, that percentage is going to be very high. For others, not so much. And that might be one of the better ways, especially if done a few times to see if the numbers stay consistent or not, to see what readers are expecting.

Even better would be:

take top 100 bestselling and the Hot New Release list.

How many have a permafree?
How many titles total does the author have?
How many are in KU?
How many are not?

That's a great way to get to know your genre.

And as for the "if an author can't get permafree to work, then nothing will" sentiment, it's just as baseless as saying "if an author is successful with permafree, they could have been successful with a higher price and just didn't try hard enough to share their books with readers." Some genres do NOT trust permafree or lower priced books. They just don't. I know that's hard to fathom if you write in a genre that DOES glom the first free in a series, but if you did a pen name in some other niches, you'd see that the readers are not interested in cheap, they're interested in what they PERCEIVE is quality (I don't think all free books are bad, not at all, but there are readers who don't both sifting through them to find a good read).


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

And for the second part of that post, that is one of the suspicions we are who against permafree think about, and why it is in our opinion a pricing war.

As soon as authors of great quality all move to make the first book in their series free in a genre, it becomes EVERYONE has to make the first book free. This is what some feel has happened to the larger subsets of Romance. It wasn't the readers who demanded free books, it was the authors who gave it to them and eventually, that just became the norm. 

I hear over and over again how "I can't price high, I write romance." Which just on face value does not compute. There ARE books in the top 100 romance selling above $6.99, but not many. May of the $3.99 books I recognize as older trade pub titles (2+ years old) that are now discounting but were already on the Top 100 in their release days at the high price points. But you can go down the list and from cover and price see immediately, majority of the 99 cent books are indies. WE did that to ourselves. Romance readers don't suddenly have less money to spend on books in general, and I don't know if they are buying more since they didn't as a genre suddenly get more than 24 hours in a day from the rest of us  

Maybe things are too late for contemporary romance, and paranormal romance, and historical romance, but other genres could take a lesson from there. It's not the trades that pushing hte prices down, it's us. Because at some point, it was decided that's the best and only way to compete head to head with them to get readers.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> And for the second part of that post, that is one of the suspicions we are who against permafree think about, and why it is in our opinion a pricing war.
> 
> As soon as authors of great quality all move to make the first book in their series free in a genre, it becomes EVERYONE has to make the first book free. This is what some feel has happened to the larger subsets of Romance. It wasn't the readers who demanded free books, it was the authors who gave it to them and eventually, that just became the norm.
> 
> ...


I understand your concern, but if it works for the author, then that's all that really matters. You can certainly express concern for the state of the industry and what we indies are doing to it - that's legitimate. But if individual authors are able to adapt to the changing environment and realize success, then nobody is really getting hurt. And you can't shut the barn door - it's been wide open since 2011 when Amanda Hocking and John Locke were making millions off of .99. I suppose that they were "Patient Zero" in the ongoing debate, but the fact is, the indies who started in 2011 and pushed the prices down are the ones to point fingers at. Not the writers who realize the reality of the situation and decide to adapt to it. And that's all we indies are doing - adapting to the environment that we are presented with, not the one that is some kind of ideal. To say "I want all books to be $6.99 and up, therefore I'm going to price at $6.99 and up" is tilting at windmills, I'm afraid.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Take your genre's best-seller list top 100 Kindle Books. Click on each author in that list, and tally how many of the 100 HAVE a permafree book. This won't tell you who has ever been free before, but it will be a snapshot of data anyway.
> 
> I suspect for some genres, that percentage is going to be very high. For others, not so much. And that might be one of the better ways, especially if done a few times to see if the numbers stay consistent or not, to see what readers are expecting.


I have something that isn't this, but is pretty good. Take a look at Smitten By Book's survey by Beverly Kendall. In particular, check out page 8.

http://smittenbybooks.com/blog/2014/01/the-self-publishing-survey-results-its-a-brave-new-world/


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

anniejocoby said:


> I understand your concern, but if it works for the author, then that's all that really matters. You can certainly express concern for the state of the industry and what we indies are doing to it - that's legitimate. But if individual authors are able to adapt to the changing environment and realize success, then nobody is really getting hurt. And you can't shut the barn door - it's been wide open since 2011 when Amanda Hocking and John Locke were making millions off of .99. I suppose that they were "Patient Zero" in the ongoing debate, but the fact is, the indies who started in 2011 and pushed the prices down are the ones to point fingers at. Not the writers who realize the reality of the situation and decide to adapt to it. And that's all we indies are doing - adapting to the environment that we are presented with, not the one that is some kind of ideal. To say "I want all books to be $6.99 and up, therefore I'm going to price at $6.99 and up" is tilting at windmills, I'm afraid.


Yep, that's about it for me. Bottom line (literally), for me--I want to be in that million-a-year club, I'm about halfway there with my 11th book just out, and I've got a multi-pronged strategy for this year of which permafree is a brand-new part. We'll see if it works, but based on my review of my genre and what works in it, I think my chances are pretty fair. So far so good, anyway.

I just do what works. If something seems like it ought to work, based on my review of what's working for others in my genre, I try that. If it doesn't work for me, I abandon it and try something else. I did Select, and that worked well. Then it didn't work so well, so I moved out wide, and that's working better. Likewise with pricing strategy. I was priced fairly low for about a year (99 cents/$2.99), because at that point, I judged "visibility" to be my #1 goal. Then I gradually raised prices, until now I'm at $4.99, which is top for my genre. (Barbara Freethy, Marie Force, Bella Andre, etc.--all $4.99. Almost all those mega-successful indie/hybrids are also using permafree. Montlake is $4.99 also, plus, of course, they use KU.) So that's where I'm living right now. What I'm seeing is that Amazon is "cheaper" than other places, and that permafree also works less well on Amazon (US, not UK) than other sites. That's OK, because I have other things in the fire that should help me a lot on Amazon.

But, yeah. I do think everyone needs to study their genre and where they are in their journey. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer for ANYTHING in publishing, as far as I can tell. And that's OK. People get to do what they want. Mileage varies. The one absolute is that you need to write books readers want to read--and that's the very toughest thing to judge or copy, unfortunately.

And thanks for the link to the Beverly Kendall survey! Yeah, that was one of the things that made me finally decide to try permafree. Hard to argue with those statistics, especially in romance.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

YAY I think we finally got to the group hug moment and agreed to be from different viewpoints. 

We're awesome!


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> Yep, that's about it for me. Bottom line (literally), for me--I want to be in that million-a-year club, I'm about halfway there with my 11th book just out, and I've got a multi-pronged strategy for this year of which permafree is a brand-new part. We'll see if it works, but based on my review of my genre and what works in it, I think my chances are pretty fair. So far so good, anyway.
> 
> I just do what works. If something seems like it ought to work, based on my review of what's working for others in my genre, I try that. If it doesn't work for me, I abandon it and try something else. I did Select, and that worked well. Then it didn't work so well, so I moved out wide, and that's working better. Likewise with pricing strategy. I was priced fairly low for about a year (99 cents/$2.99), because at that point, I judged "visibility" to be my #1 goal. Then I gradually raised prices, until now I'm at $4.99, which is top for my genre. (Barbara Freethy, Marie Force, Bella Andre, etc.--all $4.99. Almost all those mega-successful indie/hybrids are also using permafree. Montlake is $4.99 also, plus, of course, they use KU.) So that's where I'm living right now. What I'm seeing is that Amazon is "cheaper" than other places, and that permafree also works less well on Amazon (US, not UK) than other sites. That's OK, because I have other things in the fire that should help me a lot on Amazon.
> 
> But, yeah. I do think everyone needs to study their genre and where they are in their journey. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer for ANYTHING in publishing, as far as I can tell. And that's OK. People get to do what they want. I wouldn't tell anybody else what to do, and similarly, I don't appreciate people saying "permafree doesn't work," or "pricing at 99 cents doesn't work," or "you need to learn to do x or y." Mileage varies. The one absolute is that you need to write books readers want to read--and that's the very toughest thing to judge or copy, unfortunately.


As usual, spot on, Rosalind. Spot.on.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Annie and Rosalind hit the nail on the head. Zoe's whole Absence of Evidence Is Not Evidence of Absence line has the advantage of being a truism, but that doesn't make it at all compelling.

We've got evidence to support our hypothesis that permafree works, and that there is no such thing as devaluing our work by giving it away. We all know and accept that permafree isn't a necessary or sufficient condition for success, so it needn't trouble us that not everyone who uses permafree succeeds, and not everyone who shuns it fails. Caveats aside, the data we have are firmly in favor of permafree. That creates a presumption that must be countered with _data_ to the contrary, rather than cautions against leaping to conclusions based on an incomplete dataset. The dataset will always be incomplete, and we aren't leaping-we're drawing conclusions supported by the data we have.

If you think our conclusions are wrong, give us data. We have so, so many examples of folks who've increased their income with permafree. Give us even one example of someone who did everything right but lost ground thanks to freebies.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

You guys should ask the readers if they feel a book has less or no value just because they acquired it for free. 
A book is a book. Its the same story today at 5.99, its the same story if it goes on sale for .99 cents tomorrow and it will till be the same story if it goes free at some point. 

Voracious readers have always gotten their books a lot of different ways, some hardcovers from the book store, some paperbacks from the grocery, some from their friend Anneliese as a loan, some from the library, some from a box of free books sitting at the mail box building. Happens a lot around here in the apartments. 

A good book is a good book. A book I don't like I am not going to like anymore if I paid 7.99 for it or if I got it free. 

Its much easier now I would think for authors to make sales on their books and to put them free, temporary or perma. Its also easier for me as the reader to find those. I have been buying kindle books since 2008 and for a fact, there have been several authors, series I have read and loved where the first was either free, on sale or has been later made for free. So if I paid 2.99 for the first in that series and its now on perma free, that doesn't mean the value of that story is suddenly gone. 

As to sales of publishers like Harper Collins, I think cin brought that up. Those are not outliers or rare anymore. I been getting 100's of price reductions in my mail box from just that publisher alone, each day I get 20 or so and that is just the authors I have signed up for notifications. Sales go anywhere from .99-3.99. Its like they been pricing a big chunk of the catalog down to 3.99 and below. That is in romance, which is a genre I read a lot in. New releases aren't even 7.99 anymore with many publishers which is the paper back release price. They often come in at 5.99 and and below. RandomHouse Loveswept puts out their new stuff at $2.99. 

Why wouldn't I as a reader wait or hope for the lowest price I can pay for a book. I read a lot. I can get the book from the library or I can buy it on sale outright. Which way does the publisher/author make more money from. 

But the basics are the book is still the same book. There is no devaluing in this readers eye. Its the same book. Words didn't just drop out of my kindle from the work just because I got it for free today.  

The value I put on a book is in how I enjoyed the book and how it was presented. I have read free books I enjoyed more than books I paid 7.99 for and I have enjoyed 7.99 books more than some I paid 99 cents for. Because it doesn't matter what I paid for it. My kindle also doesn't show a price when I look at the cloud collections. It shows the books I have stuffed into time travel romance, historical mystery, books with pirates and ships( don't judge), contempo, steampunk romance, sci fi romance, urban fanatasy, etc. They all sit there next to each other. Some I paid nothing for, some I paid 99 cents for, some 1.99-2.99 all the way up to 7.99. 

So, don't point at other authors and what they are doing with their business or if they are devaluing books, ask the readers.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Okay, it's clear the romance genre as a GENRE lost ground from lower pricing. Even those who write in that genre acknowledged that. Patient Zero and all that. 

I can't tell you specifically author names who I know now regret doing free and 99 cents in 2011-2013 but have at least a handful. This is a public forum and they haven't joined this discussion. 

I CAN tell you running around saying permafree universally works because of Rosalind's or Annie's data, in one specific genre is like me running around and saying "I just published again and again and again and again and now I make thousands a month from only making less than $20 a month for YEARS!" On the surface, that's true, and I even have a spreadsheet. In October 2014, with no new books publishing my baseline earnings was $1600 for that month. January is $2000 with 2 new titles, one published in November the other in December. For me, the MORE I write and publish, the more I earn because I have a readership that wants my stories. I didn't have to find them by going permafree on Amazon, and if you look at my books compared to lower priced books in my niche, I do earn more and sell more copies. The best sellers in our genre for novels are typically $6.99+ in pricing, those are the ones that break the top #1500 in the Paid Kindle Store.

And this is why I've said all along, no one has said there's no such thing as an author who didn't increase their income with permafree. We've said it's not the only way to do, there are very real consequences to doing it (and that may or may not matter to an individual, of course, do what's best for you), and that it's not a magic bullet that works for everyone. For the authors it HAS worked for, they have the following common variables:

* a quality book readers want to read regardless of price
* more than just 2 or 3 books out so readers who are willing to buy more can do so
* active advertising of some kind for the freebie to draw attention to it
* write in a genre where permafree titles are accepted by readers.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Funny enough, the 2 series that come to my mind first that read and where the first was free, were not romance. 
One was Urban Fantasy (Fever series) and the other was Historical Mystery (Lady Grey series). 

I am also picking up freebies in urban fantasy, not romance. Sales too. 

I can go back to 2008 when I started buying kindle books and some would be surprised at what was free then and on sale, some for like pennies at the time. This isn't that new.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Refer to the study linked to above, Elizabeth, if you want data. I believe that was based on 800+ responses. The correlation of permafree and profitability is extremely high.

I think I said over and over, above, that permafree is not the only answer, that there are many paths. I don't see anybody disputing that authors can sell well without permafree or using free days on Amazon. I will say that certain price points are highly profitable. I've seen study after study, for example, that indicates that the most profitable price point is somewhere around $3.99-$4.99, depending on genre. 

The operative word for Romance is "voracious." These are readers that will often read 3+ books/week. They are much more price-sensitive than, for example, thriller readers, or epic fantasy readers. That's the real reason, in my opinion, that indies have been able to snatch away so much of that Top 100 real estate from trads in this genre--they understand the market better. I did an informal survey of my Facebook folks, got 100+ responses, about price point. People told me quite strongly, as a group, that they did not pay above $4.99 unless it was a very favorite author. They said, for a new author, they want to read a book free, or for 99 cents. And if they're looking at buying a whole series, and the books are above $3.99, it gives them pause. This tallied with what I'd read in Beverley Kendall's survey, in Mark Coker's Smashwords pricing studies, in Hugh Howey's studies. 

And, of course, I figure Amazon's got access to more pricing data than anybody in the world--and, I suspect, the best analysts parsing that data. If they're pricing their Contemp Romance at $4.99, then $4.99, I'm guessing, is the optimum price point for profits. 

"Follow the money." That's my motto! How much I make per book sold is much less important to me than how much I MAKE. Revenue = price x units. The optimum price point is where that is maximized. If that's $2.99--well, that's dandy with me, if I'm moving thousands of copies/month of that book at $2.99. Because those thousands of copies/month will also push the book high on the lists and give me visibility that will give me even more sales. That's the tradeoff with the higher prices--lower units sold mean less visibility, too. So--less overall revenue today, and less tomorrow.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> We've said it's not the only way to do, there are very real consequences to doing it (and that may or may not matter to an individual, of course, do what's best for you), and that it's not a magic bullet that works for everyone. For the authors it HAS worked for, they have the following common variables:
> 
> * a quality book readers want to read regardless of price
> * more than just 2 or 3 books out so readers who are willing to buy more can do so
> ...


Right. We just disagree on the "very real consequences" part. I'm not convinced there have been negative consequences for anybody. My sense is that even if average royalties per unit sold/downloaded are down for romance authors, incomes are up. Probably impossible for either of us to prove the point conclusively one way or the other.

More than anything, the disconnect seems to be that you think it's intuitively correct that permafree would decrease the average value of a book and therefore decrease the average earnings of authors. I disagree. My intuition is that even if average value of books decreases, earnings do not, and the authors who're speaking up have uniformly confirmed that, if anything (some don't give an indication one way or the other, but none cut the other way).

It's absolutely true that if permafree only works for authors who're succeeding-and that's circular to the point where it's bound to be true-it becomes very difficult to parse the data and determine causation. That leaves intuition. I think that's where we're stuck.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I'm not convinced there have been negative consequences for anybody.


It doesn't work for people who don't have a firms series--a WORLD--that something in the permafree compelled them to go back too.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Just because something doesn't work universally doesn't mean it doesn't work.

More importantly, just because something does work doens't mean that doing it more only harder will work even better. The fears that this half-decade old strategy will now suddenly cause a runaway reaction that makes everything free are baseless and pointless.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> It doesn't work for people who don't have a firms series--a WORLD--that something in the permafree compelled them to go back too.


Which isn't a negative consequence, except insofar as you're shooting yourself in the foot by trying to market something that isn't a series. We all know that's true anyway, and permafree's only a small part of it.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Just because something doesn't work universally doesn't mean it doesn't work.
> 
> More importantly, just because something does work doens't mean that doing it more only harder will work even better. The fears that this half-decade old strategy will now suddenly cause a runaway reaction that makes everything free are baseless and pointless.


Absolutely.

If free didn't work, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. What would we debate?

Free is a business decision that either fails and is abandoned, or succeeds and _increases_ the value of the author's work. I agree with Atunah that a beloved story has high value to the reader regardless of price. As Jerry Reed said, "When you're hot, you're hot, and when you're not, you can't give it away."

Some authors complain that they can't "make a living at their craft" if they are expected to give their books away or sell them for low prices. (Roz made a similar comment on her original post.) First of all, when have writers *ever* been able to expect to earn a living? Certainly not when traditional publishing was the only game in town. I'd argue that the odds of doing that now are better than they've ever been. Second, if your book doesn't sell (for whatever reason), the price is irrelevant. On the other hand, we have plenty of examples on this board of writers who've proven that it's possible to earn a living, or a near-living, with free and low-priced titles. $2.99 doesn't seem like much to get paid for your hard work--until you sell 100,000 units.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Just because something doesn't work universally doesn't mean it doesn't work.
> 
> More importantly, just because something does work doens't mean that doing it more only harder will work even better. The fears that this half-decade old strategy will now suddenly cause a runaway reaction that makes everything free are baseless and pointless.


Oh, I agree with everything you've said. I just don't want people who don't have a series to think doing a free run will magically lift their rankings and give them an edge. I've seen too many people do it and be sad when they didn't see follow up sales on other books or their rank rise.

One person who made it work for romance with only had one book had a viral Facebook campaign running. She did free to get reviews and then promoted it like crazy before, during and after the free run.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Olivia Jaymes said:


> During World War II, publishers gave books to the soldiers. For free. They didn't create a generation that devalued books. They created a generation of readers.


Did you know Random House charged civilians more for books during WW2. That was actually on the copyright page of a book.


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## 75910 (Mar 16, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Did you know Random House charged civilians more for books during WW2. That was actually on the copyright page of a book.


I didn't know that. Very interesting. And not all that surprising when you think about the rationing and so forth that went on during the war.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I CAN tell you running around saying permafree universally works because of Rosalind's or Annie's data, in one specific genre is like me running around and saying "I just published again and again and again and again and now I make thousands a month from only making less than $20 a month for YEARS!"


This part makes me _crazy_. WHO is doing that? Who is saying that permafree works universally and is the best and only path?


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> This part makes me crazy. WHO is doing that? Who is saying that permafree works universally and is the best and only path?


Yes! Who is that person?

This thread is like a car wreck. Somehow I can't look away.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> Yes! Who is that person?
> 
> This thread is like a car wreck. Somehow I can't look away.


LOL. Me too.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> Yes! Who is that person?
> 
> This thread is like a car wreck. Somehow I can't look away.


Seriously.

I literally made popcorn just so I could munch on something while I read the whole darn thing.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> Yes! Who is that person?


Scott Turow, I think.



SevenDays said:


> Seriously.


Your tar always makes me think of this amazing animal:










But I have to tell you-and I take no responsibility for what will become of you if you do this-there's a lot more out there if you Google "cat wig." It's pretty much popcorn-worthy in and of itself.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Dolphin said:


> Your tar always makes me think of this amazing animal:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I've seen them and had a good laugh. But I'm much too cool to be one of the cool, wigged cats. So a pink-haired dog it is.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Monique said:


> This part makes me _crazy_. WHO is doing that? Who is saying that permafree works universally and is the best and only path?


I think Betsy posted a photo of them on page 2...


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

So: do I set all my books free or not?


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> So: do I set all my books free or not?


No, no, no. Set them all to $9.99.

Better still, set them all free one day, $9.99 the next. Wash, rinse, repeat.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

SevenDays said:


> No, no, no. Set them all to $9.99.
> 
> Better still, set them all free one day, $9.99 the next. Wash, rinse, repeat.


*Head explodes*


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

For everyone against free, take heart. French publishers are saying Kindle Unlimited and the other subscription services are illegal. Now there's a lawsuit I'll be watching.

By the way, permafree was available long before Select came into being.

If we want to complain, what about those anthologies selling for less than a dollar? Are they not giving permafree a run for its money...so to speak?

I would tell you all my secrets, but I don't need the competition.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

The Zombie post is back!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Martitalbott said:


> I would tell you all my secrets, but I don't need the competition.


I never understand statements like this. What competition? 
I've pretty much shared everything I've done. I figure, if it helps anybody, great. I've sure appreciated those who have shared with me. I don't think of other authors or other books as my "competition." If somebody enjoys what I do, they'll look for other authors who write my kind of easy-breezy stuff. And similarly, if they read other authors like me and enjoy them, they'll be more likely to pick up one of my books, surely.

As far as using certain tactics--again, I don't see competition there. I would share my whole strategy, if I thought anybody wanted to read it. Even if somebody wants to replicate everything I do, they won't have exactly the same results as me, because they write different books. I don't write anything easily copied (well, you'd be kinda crazy if you wrote some of the stuff I do--that's why nobody wanted to publish it, LOL), so what the heck do I care?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I have yet to meet an author that can keep up with my reading speed.  Hence, readers need more than one author.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

cinisajoy said:


> I have yet to meet an author that can keep up with my reading speed. Hence, readers need more than one author.


100's of them, no 1000's of them. Which is why I don't really have issues waiting a year for a new book by an author as I have 250 other authors books to get through in that time frame. 

Its somewhat rare for me to read one after the after by the same author in a same related series. Even the In Death series which has what, 150 titles out now? I still only read one at a time and then something else.

There are exceptions like the Fever series which I inhaled 5 books in one weekend, but nobody else writes like that so its a moot point.

No one author exists in a vacuum with a reader. Which is of course why I have first in series freebies in my account I have yet to get to. Sometimes I do this on purpose as I don't touch a series by a new author unless there are 3 out at least already, othertimes I just haven't gotten to it yet. So there might be a lot of new readers an author gets 2 years after they put their book for free as it takes me that long to get to reading that book in the first place.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> I never understand statements like this. What competition?


Says the woman who was frakking _born_ into a genre and then went on to create her very own competition-free sub-genre, New Zealand Romance.

It's like having Amish Romance all to your lonely self.

Just kidding...


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**********


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> I never understand statements like this. What competition?
> I've pretty much shared everything I've done. I figure, if it helps anybody, great. I've sure appreciated those who have shared with me. I don't think of other authors or other books as my "competition." If somebody enjoys what I do, they'll look for other authors who write my kind of easy-breezy stuff. And similarly, if they read other authors like me and enjoy them, they'll be more likely to pick up one of my books, surely.
> 
> As far as using certain tactics--again, I don't see competition there. I would share my whole strategy, if I thought anybody wanted to read it. Even if somebody wants to replicate everything I do, they won't have exactly the same results as me, because they write different books. I don't write anything easily copied (well, you'd be kinda crazy if you wrote some of the stuff I do--that's why nobody wanted to publish it, LOL), so what the heck do I care?


I used to share a lot of my marketing strategy, but once everyone does it, it no longer works for me. I doubt I am alone in keeping quiet about certain things.

Of course, it is all about content, which I have said repeatedly, but great or even unique content does not market books. What others write is not what I feel is my completion - how I market is. We were discussing permafree, and I chose not to elaborate on my marketing tactics, that's all I meant.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> The thing is, some of the better-sellers here are likely looking at your $2000 per month at full price for an inventory of 4 or 5 books where the profit works out to $400-500 per book and comparing it to their inventories where the average profit is $1000 or more per book with a permafree title or two. YOU think $2K a month is a lot. Many of the folk disagreeing with you are making that much per month on a single title.
> 
> Different perspectives.


Well said.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Olivia Jaymes said:


> During World War II, publishers gave books to the soldiers. For free. They didn't create a generation that devalued books. They created a generation of readers.


I just read an article (can't remember where, I read a lot) that suggested the couple that started Ballantine and Bantam books credited their success to soldiers coming back from war and wanting to read genre thrillers and science fiction. They couldn't get in bookstores either, so they set up racks in drugstores to sell their books. So basically, those imprints became successful because of the free books that got the soldiers hooked on reading.

So let me just say "You're welcome" to all the authors who don't set books free, yet owe some of their success to those of us who helped get readers hooked on reading by offering something for free.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

Since the stats bear out that probably less than ten percent free downloads get read, i'd say the growth in readership is more due to the likes of Harry Potter, Game of Thrones and Lee Child.

I think people overstate the draw of free books, apart from power readers, the vast majority of casual book readers value their time a lot more than saving the price of a big mac meal. If that wasn't the case Lee Child wouldn't be rolling about in a huge bath of money.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

B&H said:


> Since the stats bear out that probably less than ten percent free downloads get read, i'd say the growth in readership is more due to the likes of Harry Potter, Game of Thrones and Lee Child.
> 
> I think people overstate the draw of free books, apart from power readers, the vast majority of casual book readers value their time a lot more than saving the price of a big mac meal. If that wasn't the case Lee Child wouldn't be rolling about in a huge bath of money.


Can you please show me these stats?
Though thank you for bringing this up. Now there was a very unscientific study done about a year or so ago. It was discovered that roughly 50% of books gotten free were not readable. There were multiple errors or the content was not as advertised or the story just didn't make sense.
Now also at the time of the study, another interesting result emerged. It was found that 9 out of 10 non kboarders were unreadable, whereas 9 out of 10 kboarders were very readable.

So the takeaway if you want to use a free book as a funnel, make sure it is a very good book.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Can you please show me these stats?
> Though thank you for bringing this up. Now there was a very unscientific study done about a year or so ago. It was discovered that roughly 50% of books gotten free were not readable. There were multiple errors or the content was not as advertised or the story just didn't make sense.
> Now also at the time of the study, another interesting result emerged. It was found that 9 out of 10 non kboarders were unreadable, whereas 9 out of 10 kboarders were very readable.
> 
> So the takeaway if you want to use a free book as a funnel, make sure it is a very good book.


Do you have links to this?


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> I've found ebooks to be a push-me, pull-me competition. We are all competing for visibility. Which always sucks if you're #101 on the lists. BUT, I've bought ads for competing titles before and have shared competing titles on our newsletters, because of the shared audience and visibility that produced. Win-win. But that #101 spot still sucks.
> 
> Here's something else to consider, Elizabeth. Because you're always throwing around the money you're making, let's look at your ranks right now. Your inventory isn't consistently making you more each month. At 6 months old, some of your titles are already aging. A new work *in the same series* will likely lift all ranks for a bit, but you're only 6 months in -- you're just now seeing diminishing returns on backlist -- which seems to mean books older than 6 months old these days. When you can continue to point to a series doing well on its own once that series is done, THEN you can bring in personal experience as to how your series continues to sell well a year or two later without the need for a visibility booster. Perhaps it will.
> 
> ...


Gotta hand it to you, Phoenix. You got the guts to say what many of us were probably thinking. Good for you!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Phoenix, when I want to give away 1.6 million to sell 1.3 million, I absolutely will come talk to you. 

There are NOT a ton more making a bunch more on a single title. Certainly not indies. Sorry. Believe what you want, but the math doesn't add up. There are over 600,000 authors in the paid Kindle store. There are over 3 million books. Those people here who consider themselves prawns selling just 1 copy a month puts you at 300,000 - 400,000 in the Paid Kindle store puts that title in the top 10% of the overall Kindle store. When you start talking about the people with 10 books out using permafree to shift units, like those 800 authors that responded to that survey, you're talking about .13% of the 600,000+ authors.

There are authors here who said we shouldn't expect to make a living. Yes, we should. I stay at home, working 5 hours Mon-Friday, a part-time job, and make more than I would working those SAME hours outside of the home. 

The novel I wrote late last year has already earned nearly $5,000 total in just it's first few months. How many times do we hear how LUCKY a debut author is to get a $5,000 or $10,000 advance? And oh yeah, don't expect to see another dime because you're unlikely to earn out. 

I know who I am. I know what I'm sharing with other authors. It absolutely IS repeatable in other genres, write stories for a readership who wants more stories and keep going. Not rocket science. If you can sell to 200 readers, then sell to those 200 readers and keep going. Eventually, they'll start talking about you and it grows from there. It's slower, and not giving away my book to 55,000 people that maybe a fraction of them will even read it.

You're retiring. You're closing shop. I have another 20-30 years I plan to still be selling my writing, whether that's fiction books or articles, or whatever new format comes along. I did the whole free thing and made it to the top. I'm sure if I did a permafree in a series in romance and worked the advertisers like everyone else, I'd be just fine there too. But I think that method is not a smart way for long term sustainability. I don't want to make $10,000 one month then hope I get another Bookbub ad so that I can make that money again. I want to slowly build, book by book, my baseline revenue. 

I have ALWAYS given my books to readers who want it. What I won't do is scatter shot my books free on retail sites any more to readers who never really wanted my book in the first place and just grabbed me because I was free. It's not a model I think is sustainable for the 20-30 year career I am aiming for now that my youngest is in school. 

You don't like me. I get it. But I don't lie to other authors and I do my best to show those who are only earning $10-$20 a month on their one or two books what CAN happen. I share my data. Raw, let people make the interpretations they want from it. I don't get your interpretations, but then again, I'm not you. I see my baseline revenue going up each month as my older titles settle into selling between 100-200 a month on just Amazon. 

I also have no illusions about what it is I write. I write commercial fiction for consumption by a specific fan base. Later this year, I will be branching out into fiction that has a wider audience, building on the community of readers I have built to my own site, my own digital space. It only takes about 30-50 books sold on Day 1 to start tracking. Good lord, I started over again and in only 6 months, if I do nothing, my books still sell a few copies a day. If that's not success, what is? 

No, some of the people who have seen the $10,000 a month, $20,000 a month, etc. FORGET what it was like to be prawn. Yeah, forgive me, but I don't want to be you. I don't want to get 3 years down the road and look at numbers like that. Because what I do is a profession. It is a career. And it is work. 

If you weren't retiring, I'd tell you to just watch. I'm not stupid, and I'm not "new" in terms of digital economies. When people build businesses on gimmicks and bargain basement prices, they soon find themselves with diminishing returns and unable to now price high because they've built a customer base that doesn't pay for their product at the higher prices. Tell me, can Walmart launch a luxury line of products?

The day Amazon yanks the Free Bestseller lists poof goes those permafree windfalls. And my question, is what's the Plan B?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Monique said:


> Do you have links to this?


Note I said very UNSCIENTIFIC study. It was in a post about a year ago here on kboards. On one of 800 threads about permafree. 
I do not care to try to duplicate that study.

I think you were one of the books studied. And found to be very readable.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

anniejocoby said:


> Gotta hand it to you, Phoenix. You got the guts to say what many of us were probably thinking. Good for you!


I was just thinking the same thing.

So nice to see something taken head-on without all the smoke and mirrors and usual deflection.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Note I said very UNSCIENTIFIC study. It was in a post about a year ago here on kboards. On one of 800 threads about permafree.
> I do not care to try to duplicate that study.
> 
> I think you were one of the books studied. And found to be very readable.


I like think it's readable anyway.  And making sure your books (free or paid) are is job one.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> When people build businesses on gimmicks and bargain basement prices, they soon find themselves with diminishing returns and unable to now price high because they've built a customer base that doesn't pay for their product at the higher prices. Tell me, can Walmart launch a luxury line of products?


You keep saying this, and it's simply not true. I've told you and others have told you--we price our subsequent books HIGH for our genre, because people read the free or 99-cent one and want to read more. The first book in a series free does NOT "train" anybody, or make anybody expect to get all the books free. In the romance genre, readers absolutely understand the first-book-free thing.

Take a look at all the indies selling big. I will guarantee you that at least 80% of them, if not 100%, have their first in series free or cheap--and all their subsequent books at the highest profitable price, which in Contemp Romance is $4.99-5.99 absolute max. (Higher for the erotic stuff.)

What will they do if permafree goes away? ADJUST. ADAPT. That's what successful indies do. (And believe me, when you earn mid-six to seven figures every year--you've got some wiggle room to adjust from!)

You say you have a template others can follow. I'd argue that, if I wanted to make money, I'd follow the template of the most successful people. They have a template as well.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I know who I am. I know what I'm sharing with other authors. It absolutely IS repeatable in other genres, write stories for a readership who wants more stories and keep going. Not rocket science. If you can sell to 200 readers, then sell to those 200 readers and keep going. Eventually, they'll start talking about you and it grows from there. It's slower, and not giving away my book to 55,000 people that maybe a fraction of them will even read it.
> 
> You're retiring. You're closing shop. I have another 20-30 years I plan to still be selling my writing, whether that's fiction books or articles, or whatever new format comes along. I did the whole free thing and made it to the top. I'm sure if I did a permafree in a series in romance and worked the advertisers like everyone else, I'd be just fine there too. But I think that method is not a smart way for long term sustainability. I don't want to make $10,000 one month then hope I get another Bookbub ad so that I can make that money again. I want to slowly build, book by book, my baseline revenue.
> 
> ...


I think you're missing a bigger picture here. Giving away books, doing BookBub ads, finding readers right now, means that if the bottom does fall out of permafree those of us who have been collecting readers by getting as many books as possible into readers hands for the last few years will still have a solid base of readership for all new releases.

A slow build is a viable strategy, but collecting as many readers as possible as fast as possible can and does _ make_ someone's career. The way your post here sounds is that those of us who give away books don't have a career. I beg to differ. If permafree went away tomorrow it would suck. But I'd still have a solid career. And I'm certain I'd figure out what to do next.

I also think it's disingenuous to say those who make five figures forget what it's like to be a prawn. We remember. We also start new series to varying degrees of success. Most of us are always learning and trying new things.

P.s. You know what makes top sellers go away and stop posting about what works for them? Being told they don't know that they are talking about because they are too successful.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Deanna Chase said:


> I think you're missing a bigger picture here. Giving away books, doing BookBub ads, finding readers right now, means that if the bottom does fall out of permafree those of us who have been collecting readers by getting as many books into readers hands for the last few years will still have a solid base of readership for all new releases.
> 
> A slow build is a viable strategy, but collecting as many readers as possible as fast as possible can and does _ make_ someone's career. The way your post here sounds is that those of us who give away books don't have a career. I beg to differ. If permafree went away tomorrow it would suck. But I'd still have a solid career. And I'm certain I'd figure out what to do next.
> 
> ...


OH, yeah.

I started when you did, Elizabeth. I was a beginner. Absolutely. Now I'd say I'm an...advanced beginner. I'm certainly still learning and trying new things, trying to keep my eyes open and learn from folks who sell better than I do--because, sadly, there are so darned many folks who sell better than I do! I don't want to change what I write, so I adjust how I market so I can continue to sell enough to keep writing what I want.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Can you please show me these stats?
> Though thank you for bringing this up. Now there was a very unscientific study done about a year or so ago. It was discovered that roughly 50% of books gotten free were not readable. There were multiple errors or the content was not as advertised or the story just didn't make sense.
> Now also at the time of the study, another interesting result emerged. It was found that 9 out of 10 non kboarders were unreadable, whereas 9 out of 10 kboarders were very readable.
> 
> So the takeaway if you want to use a free book as a funnel, make sure it is a very good book.


I'm taking a ballpark aggregate based on numbers most authors report here.

Look at bookbub - people run promos and get 50k free downloads. 99c and they get maybe 2,500 - about 5 percent, which is about the average sell through rate. I'd wager a lot of the free books are never read regardless of quality.

Hell, i got a free kindle copy of the girl with a dragon tattoo from amazon for buying books at xmas, i haven't read it, and nothing to do with quality given its critical acclaim, the fact is i've spent 160 USD on 7 hardbacks this month by Tom Clancy et al and hadn't had time to read them, but my limited reading time will be spent reading books i've paid for in preference to freebies

i'm not saying nobody reads free books, they just aren't the golden bullet to sales success neither are they going to kill paid book sales.

If a reader isn't interested in giving up several hours of their life to read your book then making it free makes no difference.

Value your readers time and deliver books that reward their time investment. Then you don't even need to worry about the free debate, they'll camp outside your house shouting Here take my money!

I know all about free books, don't download any of them. Paid 30 USD for a backlist Tom Clancy hardback.

Do i worry about free devaluing books? No. I worry about writing books as well as Tom did so i too can bath in swans tears just like lee child.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

B&H said:


> I'm taking a ballpark aggregate based on numbers most authors report here.
> 
> Look at bookbub - people run promos and get 50k free downloads. 99c and they get maybe 2,500 - about 5 percent, which is about the average sell through rate. I'd wager a lot of the free books are never read regardless of quality.
> 
> ...


They've been the golden bullet for me. Absolutely. A free run on BookBub is still my very best marketing push. Beats everything else with a stick.

But it's what I said--after you get the eyeballs on the book, it's on the BOOK to deliver, or not. To hook the reader, to keep them reading, to make them want to read the next book. So you're right, by my lights--the most important thing is having a book that will do that, so your first also-boughts are your other books.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Getting a book at Christmas not even 2 months ago and not having yet read it is nothing. Whippersnapper. 

I have books going back to 2008 I got that I haven't read yet. Some free, some paid. My biggest chunks of books I acquired in 2011 and 2013 for some reason. Again, both paid and free.

They all show in my kindle cloud without price. I read what I feel like at the time I read it. I make no difference between a paid book, a free book, a library loan book, a prime loan or a subscription book. Well subscription books do make a difference but that is because I have to read those on a Fire tablet and can't read the on e-ink. And prime books I do have to read those within the months so I can get the next loan, but its just one.

Books don't have a expiration date on them. That book I got in 2009 will still read just fine tomorrow. Most readers have long tbr lists. Does't mean we don't get more books, free or paid. It just means it takes many of use a while to get to them. So maybe the mistake is measuring a success always on a free book for a short time. Very few of us just drop everything else right then and there to read that one book. Unless its a series or author we have been waiting for for some time.

You don't even want to know how many yet unread books I have in my account. I _will_ read them all, eventually. I'll just be a bit behind. Its kind of like buying a nice bottle of wine that still needs to be cellar-ed for a few years. Or in my case, closeted. I know they are there and I will drink the one day. But I got a rack of wines there to drink now already. If I feel like a Merlot today, I am not going to open a Gewuerztraminer.

One of my most amusing joys is seeing another reader recommend a book and I go look and find out I got that 3 years ago so I own it already. Then it gets moved up on the list.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

There is so much ignorance in this thread that I don't know where to begin. Let me start with I have the first two books of my two series on permafree. I absolutely sell a lot of books and I am building a huge readership. My new releases hit top 5 in every store without the benefit of pre-orders or even setting a release date. I simply publish the book, send out a newsletter, post on Facebook and let it ride. No early reviews either. If permafree goes away, I am certain I will still be fine because free is not what's selling my books. My WRITING is what's selling my books.

The bottom line is do whatever you want with your career, and there are as many paths to success as there are definitions of success, but to suggest that writers who regularly live in the Top 100 at vendors are somehow going to disappear if permafree goes away is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

The ~10% number B&H seems to be tossing around is *sell through* and not a 'percent read'. There's absolutely no way to for us to know how many of those books are read unless we're doing something insanely unethical in our book files.

As for Plan B? First laughing as Amazon loses its command share of the ebook market forever. Then a banner on my site telling people to go to other channels for free books. Might have to combine Books 1 & 2 to appease Amazon's whinerbaby policy on pricing. Oh, and continuing to provide free content on my site without a reader-alienating sign-in wall.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

The market is changing so fast that who knows what will work in a year or two anyway? Books sold today have a definite value. Books sold hypothetically in the future mean very little. Of course I hope to still be around in five years, but I'll worry about 2020 when it arrives. Right now, there are strategies that get books into readers' hands, and those are strategies that I want to follow.

As for training readers to expect free or ultra-discounted books, nobody knows me or remembers my name except for a couple of thousand people on my mailing list, and I'm no so sure about most of them, either. There is almost zero chance that a reader is going to see my freebie today and then stumble across me again in six months and think "No way, that's the cheap book guy!"


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

I'll be honest, i don't know what i'm arguing about. 

My one little novella published 9 months or so ago has generated so much filthy literary lucre i've already given up my day job of being a lazy bum and actually been able to make being a lazy bum writer who drinks a full time gig.

So no, i don't worry about any of this. My permafree allowed me to pay for books that i have no time to read due to the hectic routine of being a lazy bum writer.

I suppose my only point was that despite all the free books i still buy books. And despite my book being free my readers still pay me filthy literary lucre. And despite all of this there are a ton of paid books ahead of me in the charts that have never been free. And Lee Child has more money than a small african nation despite being published before bookbub existed.

Add all this together and you realise nothing has changed other than people no longer have to risk shoplifting to get free books, many successful writers are still lazy bums with a drink problem, and writers will still be rich, poor, die in obscurity or fame. Worrying about any of this is tilting at windmills and simply takes time and energy away from doing the only important thing which is writing books people want to read.

What was the thread topic again?


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> The ~10% number B&H seems to be tossing around is *sell through* and not a 'percent read'. There's absolutely no way to for us to know how many of those books are read unless we're doing something insanely unethical in our book files.
> 
> As for Plan B? First laughing as Amazon loses its command share of the ebook market forever. Then a banner on my site telling people to go to other channels for free books. Might have to combine Books 1 & 2 to appease Amazon's whinerbaby policy on pricing. Oh, and continuing to provide free content on my site without a reader-alienating sign-in wall.


The sell through rate is the only figure you should care about as a publisher. If you know that 10 percent if the freeloaders would have been paid sales and you only sell books to the same 10 percent thereafter then you're 10 percent lost sales of book one contributed nothing to your bottom line.

The only sensible business motivation to do it is to sell more than it cost you in lost revenue. The X percent who never buy anything, it doesn't matter if they read it or not, they're not paying you anything and until the local hostelry starts offering permafree booze then X readership size is not going to pick up the tab for a night on the sauce.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

B&H said:


> The sell through rate is the only figure you should care about as a publisher. If you know that 10 percent if the freeloaders would have been paid sales and you only sell books to the same 10 percent thereafter then you're 10 percent lost sales of book one contributed nothing to your bottom line.
> 
> The only sensible business motivation to do it is to sell more than it cost you in lost revenue. The X percent who never buy anything, it doesn't matter if they read it or not, they're not paying you anything and until the local hostelry starts offering permafree booze then X readership size is not going to pick up the tab for a night on the sauce.


I thought you were joking about the drinking, and then I read this post.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Yes but that 10% you probably would not have had without free.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

B&H said:


> The sell through rate is the only figure you should care about as a publisher. If you know that 10 percent if the freeloaders would have been paid sales and you only sell books to the same 10 percent thereafter then you're 10 percent lost sales of book one contributed nothing to your bottom line.
> 
> The only sensible business motivation to do it is to sell more than it cost you in lost revenue. The X percent who never buy anything, it doesn't matter if they read it or not, they're not paying you anything and until the local hostelry starts offering permafree booze then X readership size is not going to pick up the tab for a night on the sauce.


Wait. What?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

B&H said:


> The sell through rate is the only figure you should care about as a publisher. If you know that 10 percent if the freeloaders would have been paid sales and you only sell books to the same 10 percent thereafter then you're 10 percent lost sales of book one contributed nothing to your bottom line.
> 
> The only sensible business motivation to do it is to sell more than it cost you in lost revenue. The X percent who never buy anything, it doesn't matter if they read it or not, they're not paying you anything and until the local hostelry starts offering permafree booze then X readership size is not going to pick up the tab for a night on the sauce.


Total derail: how to get others to pick up the tab: Show more cleavage and smile....


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

At the risk of being misunderstood again, it is prudent to keep our eye on the readers. 

Let's face it, there's a lot of junk out there and readers have to trudge through it to find a new author they might like. First free in a series helps them and higher prices on the following books, plus reviews, encourages them to buy the next one. These days, readers think low prices equals low quality, and with good reason. Everything was selling at $.99 for months. Higher prices looks like the author/publisher values a book more.

Furthermore, readers don't have to return free books and they are easy to delete. No charge to their card and no refund hassles.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

That's be 10% of the thousands of free DLs you got from running an ad only open to free books.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> You keep saying this, and it's simply not true. I've told you and others have told you--we price our subsequent books HIGH for our genre, because people read the free or 99-cent one and want to read more. The first book in a series free does NOT "train" anybody, or make anybody expect to get all the books free. In the romance genre, readers absolutely understand the first-book-free thing.
> 
> Take a look at all the indies selling big. I will guarantee you that at least 80% of them, if not 100%, have their first in series free or cheap--and all their subsequent books at the highest profitable price, which in Contemp Romance is $4.99-5.99 absolute max. (Higher for the erotic stuff.)
> 
> ...


Eh. Forget it. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Elizabeth's contention that those with permafree are building their career on a house of cards is a perfect example of this. I'm guessing that the authors who are using it and growing each year - like you, Ros, me, SM Reine, Courtney Milan, Liliana Hart, plus too many millionaire romance writers to count, are deluded. So be it. Oops...I probably shouldn't have mentioned myself in the same breath as those rock stars, as I'm still a prawn compared to them.

But I have a hard time letting this topic go. There are too many newbies hungry for answers. Newbies who might stay away from permafree because they believe the nonsense about it being unsustainable. And that's just wrong. So, yeah, my big mouth gets me into trouble sometimes, but I will always keep spreading the gospel of permafrees. Because newbies need to hear it. Permafrees work. They do. They aren't the building blocks of an unsustainable career based on gimmicks. They' re building blocks of acquiring a solid fan base out of nothing. So many highly successful authors have used it to grow. There's your proof right there that it works.

Ah,.but even global warming has its skeptics.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

MichaelWallace said:


> The market is changing so fast that who knows what will work in a year or two anyway? Books sold today have a definite value. Books sold hypothetically in the future mean very little. Of course I hope to still be around in five years, but I'll worry about 2020 when it arrives. Right now, there are strategies that get books into readers' hands, and those are strategies that I want to follow.
> 
> As for training readers to expect free or ultra-discounted books, nobody knows me or remembers my name except for a couple of thousand people on my mailing list, and I'm no so sure about most of them, either. There is almost zero chance that a reader is going to see my freebie today and then stumble across me again in six months and think "No way, that's the cheap book guy!"


Word. And thanks for giving me a chuckle, cheap book guy.


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## Bob Stewart (Mar 19, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> They've been the golden bullet for me. Absolutely. A free run on BookBub is still my very best marketing push. Beats everything else with a stick.


I think for most indies, freebies are simply our method/cost of marketing, like an ad buy at $X CPM, which Simon & Schuster buys. But our freebie it is a far better deal. Our out-of-pocket expense is $0.

You can try doing it like Simon & Schuster, but you will certainly regret it. I saw an indie author's ad one Sunday in the NYT Book Review. She was a children's book author and it was a children's book special issue. She bought a full column ad and it was very competently, but not slickly/professionally, done. She had a dozen nice reviews and a fine blurb/cover. We get our book review in the mail and it comes early so I looked at her ranking at Amazon, then looked again each day for a couple weeks. I would estimate she sold no more than a half-dozen books with what was probably a $2,000+ ad.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

On this topic:  Bennett Cerf's publishing company put a very little publicized book, it was only touted on a talk show and assorted other places on sale today for $2.99.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm thinking at some point, y'all are going to have to agree to disagree.  I think there is plenty of information here for others to decide which philosophy (or philosophies) they want to try.  But I'm reading fixed positions here and people aren't going to suddenly go "Oh, of course!" *facepalm* "You're right!"

But I am going to ask to treat the other side's positions with respect.  Or I'm going to have to start posting pics of how beautiful and warm and sunny it is here in San Diego and how the sunlight is glinting off the surf outside my window.

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Mod


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I usually keep out of these permafree/Select/KU/whatever discussions. I have my own views on these issues, but since debating about it isn't going to change anybody else's views, I simply don't bother anymore. Everybody must make their own path.

However, is it really necessary to attack people and their sales or lack thereof, just because they happen to have a different strategy than you? Is it necessary to disparage someone because their sales don't hit whatever arbitrary benchmark you consider successful? Threads like this are the reason why so many people leave KBoards, both the big successes and the smalltime prawns.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**********


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

ゴジラ said:


> Free and low-priced books are nice ways to introduce readers to a body of work. It helps them allocate their entertainment dollars where they know they will be well spent. And it keeps them away from reading another 200,000-word Loki/Thor fanfiction, at least for a few minutes. Reader-friendly pricing does not devalue our books.


This is how I and multiple other readers who post here at KB feel about free/discounted books and have tried to explain many times. More than once we have been told we are not "typical" readers/purchasers or that we are just more savvy than the average reader. I personally think our attitude toward the value of books is that the free or discounted book is extremely valuable in helping us decide on future "full-price" purchases.

I don't think readers who value books this way are such a small subset at all.


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## tiffanycherney (Feb 18, 2014)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Cora, of course it's not necessary. But when a poster flaunts their sales and profits _ad nauseum _and uses them to prove their positions or influence others in posts like these, then those sales become part of the conversation. Why should we ignore them any more than if a poster brings up something like results from the author's earnings report or Amazon's quarterly earnings? I haven't seen anyone in this thread addressing any sales that weren't brought up by the poster first. Or did I miss something?


There's a difference between discussing them and outright dismissing them as I've seen done in several threads over the past two months, this one included, though it is admittedly lesser than most. Some only want to hear from the high sellers, but not someone who is newer, like myself (and yes I consider myself still new even after a year), though they might be onto some new way to do things simply because they don't have the sale numbers, or a long track of sales numbers. In regards to this thread's topic, both sides have their valid points and their respective sales for data, but there is a dismissive tone at times in regards to how much value those sales have because permafree/cheap supposedly trains people to only buy cheap among other reasons, and I think that is somewhat Cora is talking about in regards to this thread, though I might be wrong and she should feel free to correct me. People get passionate yes, but the tone of posts as of late seem to be pass passion and instead make the forum have an unfriendly air unless you meet certain qualities and even then. It definitely does make people hesitant to post and share their results, my little prawny self included.

I did want to add as an avid reader, free or full price doesn't matter if I enjoy an author, also if one is arguing value I've picked up several trade published books, the latest one being Brandon Sanderson's, Words of Radiance, for free during a promo, but the rest of his books that I own I've bought at full price. If you enjoy an author enough you will seek out their books, regardless of price.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

tiffanycherney said:


> There's a difference between discussing them and outright dismissing them as I've seen done in several threads over the past two months, this one included, though it is admittedly lesser than most. Some only want to hear from the high sellers, but not someone who is newer, like myself (and yes I consider myself still new even after a year), though they might be onto some new way to do things simply because they don't have the sale numbers, or a long track of sales numbers. In regards to this thread's topic, both sides have their valid points and their respective sales for data, but there is a dismissive tone at times in regards to how much value those sales have because permafree/cheap supposedly trains people to only buy cheap among other reasons, and I think that is somewhat Cora is talking about in regards to this thread, though I might be wrong and she should feel free to correct me. People get passionate yes, but the tone of posts as of late seem to be pass passion and instead make the forum have an unfriendly air unless you meet certain qualities and even then. It definitely does make people hesitant to post and share their results, my little prawny self included.
> 
> I did want to add as an avid reader, free or full price doesn't matter if I enjoy an author, also if one is arguing value I've picked up several trade published books, the latest one being Brandon Sanderson's, Words of Radiance, for free during a promo, but the rest of his books that I own I've bought at full price. If you enjoy an author enough you will seek out their books, regardless of price.


I think that Phoenix was making that point simply because Elizabeth has been so dismissive about permafrees - saying that they're gimmicks and not a way to build long term sales. To point out that her sales aren't equal to the authors that she is denigrating is valid.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

anniejocoby said:


> I think that Phoenix was making that point simply because Elizabeth has been so dismissive about permafrees - saying that they're gimmicks and not a way to build long term sales. To point out that her sales aren't equal to the authors that she is denigrating is valid.


This.

As an aside, it seems that the pro-permafreers are merely saying it's one way to succeed, not the only way. Whereas a lot of the anti-permafreers think no one should do it. It's wrong. It's the end of all things. That is part of the friction on this thread.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Monique said:


> This.
> 
> As an aside, it seems that the pro-permafreers are merely saying it's one way to succeed, not the only way. Whereas a lot of the anti-permafreers think no one should do it. It's wrong. It's the end of all things. That is part of the friction on this thread.


This. And those of us with permafrees are getting tired of being told that we're ruining the industry, we rely on gimmicks, we cheapen our work and we're amateurs. We're simply using a tool in our arsenal. This isn't permageddon. If you don't like permafree, fine, don't use it. But don't actively insult those who do.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Avid readers are on a budget. They can buy ten books for 99c, but they can't buy ten books at 9.99. They'll get one book. Maybe two. Pricing cheaply just spreads readership around more, really.


My dad is on a budget. He reads about 5 books a week. If he can't get them on his budget through free, and bargains, he gets them from the library. (My books are available through Overdrive at libraries, and I regularly remind my readers of it).



> Free and low-priced books are nice ways to introduce readers to a body of work. It helps them allocate their entertainment dollars where they know they will be well spent. And it keeps them away from reading another 200,000-word Loki/Thor fanfiction, at least for a few minutes.


I regularly point my readers to my 1 million words of free fanfiction. No Thor/Loki though, mostly Darcy/Loki ... but I have a fun Captain America/Loki fiction out there ...


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Interesting. I've seen the dismissiveness in the thread coming from both sides of the 'discussion', not just one.


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## mostlybree (Jan 11, 2010)

ゴジラ said:


> Bree Bridges won't get off of Dragon Age fanfic websites.


HEY, you promised you wouldn't tell anyone. 

I remember the dawn of amazon freebies. Samhain Publishing made one of my books free for 2 weeks...the 2 weeks directly after Amazon split the free books out into their own bestseller lists, as a matter of fact. (You know, back when we had to one-click uphill both ways barefoot in a blizzard.) I remember thinking that my chances of my free promotion were ruined because no one would see me on this new bestseller list because no one would know to look there! Apocalypse! Change! Amazon ruined my life!

(The freebie actually made my career for about 10 months until I learned the hard way that a backlist can tank with no warning. The first Humbling of your career always hurts the worst. )

As far as I can tell, change is the only constant in this wacky digital business. Everyone I know who is super successful has Plans B through K in the tube and is working on plans L through Q. I think the only really terrible thing any of us can do for our careers is think we've already figured out the only strategy we'll ever have to use.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Now if 10 people buy your $4 book, you are worth $40. Just keep adding zeroes.
> Your value is determined by number of readers not the retail price of your book.


Seriously? That's how an author's value is determined?
Mindboggling.
I have no answer to that. 
Except that my understanding of an author's value is so different from yours that our worlds would never meet in this lifetime.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Richardcrasta said:


> Seriously? That's how an author's value is determined?
> Mindboggling.
> I have no answer to that.
> Except that my understanding of an author's value is so different from yours that our worlds would never meet in this lifetime.


Your worlds would never meet? Due to this one disagreement? Were those short choppy sentences representative of your indignation? You're being a bit dramatic, it's a simple difference of OPINION.


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## tiffanycherney (Feb 18, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> I think that Phoenix was making that point simply because Elizabeth has been so dismissive about permafrees - saying that they're gimmicks and not a way to build long term sales. To point out that her sales aren't equal to the authors that she is denigrating is valid.


To clarify a bit, in my opinion to say your sales numbers don't equal so and so's is valid within reason, and to me an example of crossing the line is something like: "Well you don't clear 2k per month? Well, you don't know what you're talking about, you have nothing to contribute to this conversation because you don't have x amount of experience to back it up." I'm admittedly really generalizing this example, but you can somewhat get the idea. To say though (and I'll somewhat use the post you're referring to here)- well you make this much per title and this author make this much per title of theirs with a permafree title, so they must be onto something is fine. A lot of it does come down to tone which I also admit can get away from people when the thread turns into a heated discussion and suffer the limitations of text.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

JV said:


> Your worlds would never meet? Due to this one disagreement? Were those short choppy sentences representative of your indignation? You're being a bit dramatic, it's a simple difference of OPINION.


Okay, fine. I take it back [the extraneous comments, not the disagreement on the value of an author]. It's not important enough.

The short choppy sentences were entirely due to a lack of coffee ... or perhaps they were. My earlier work is filled with sentences that are quite longer than average. But in addition, I have written the equivalent of 50-70 pages on the general topic of "Why I Write" and it touches on this subject (I'll publish it soon, an earlier version had the word "Manifestos" in it); which is why I was rendered speechless by that statement.


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## lostagain (Feb 17, 2014)

I'll argue that tone is hard to pin down, because it's based on your perception of the author. I didn't read Phoenix to be condescending the way you did.


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## Tricia O&#039; (Feb 19, 2013)

VioletVaughn said:


> I'll argue that tone is hard to pin down, because it's based on your perception of the author. I didn't read Phoenix to be condescending the way you did.


I agree. I would pay to listen to Phoenix.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

VioletVaughn said:


> I'll argue that tone is hard to pin down, because it's based on your perception of the author. I didn't read Phoenix to be condescending the way you did.


I don't have any perceptions of the author, and my reading of the comment did come off as Phoenix being condescending.

*shrug*

I'd listen to Phoenix and her advice. Just like I'd listen to Elizabeth and her advice. They both have valid points and points of view.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I may have been more angry than I should have been, but I've ignored previous snark from Phoenix on other posts about my sales and earnings. This has been since last summer.

We all have to do what we need to for ourselves. I'm not going to stop sharing my methods and what I do because I don't see much raw data out there. I don't share my link to my spreadsheet every day, and you know what? Every day there are people in there looking at the numbers. Raw data is hard to find from anyone, good or bad. I'd classify myself as just another author, not superior to anyone. If I come off superior, I apologize I never intend to, I promise. I am a very Type A personality. 

I gain nothing from sharing my sales except for the other authors that thank me for giving them some kind of numbers to go by for their own plans and ideas. I also gain a bunch of negativity from megasellers. 

This isn't the first thread where it's been me and a few others being told we are leading others astray because we're not in favor of permafree, because it can be a relatively low obstacle way to solve the problem of visibility. Probably won't be the last. And I'm glad we do have the ability to talk about all of these issues as a group because they are important.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

B&H said:


> I'll be honest, i don't know what i'm arguing about.
> 
> My one little novella published 9 months or so ago has generated so much filthy literary lucre i've already given up my day job of being a lazy bum and actually been able to make being a lazy bum writer who drinks a full time gig.
> 
> ...


Good point. I mean, especially, the last sentence.


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

*Elizabeth*, I think I'm actually in a similar genre to yours in that permafree is less useful, and I would be more than happy to emulate your success. I'm a newbie, and I have appreciated the way both you and Rosalind have generously shared your experience. i find you quite literally inspirational. Hell, you make me wish I could write JAFF (literary and historical fanfic has long been my bag) except I know it would end up being about Jane discovering Darcy and Bingley together and finding a new life and love with Caroline. And I don't think that's what your audience is looking for.

But I am still right here defending permafree, because:
1) as a reader, it works for me, and I know it does
2) I can see just how successful funnelling is for many writers, and I think that's beyond doubt
3) I think that it is a logical fallacy that first free lowers the financial status of writers
4) I really, really object on strenuous intellectual and ethical grounds to the equation of personal and artistic worth with cost
5) One of the reasons indie publishing attracted me was the ability to take risks, to experiment, to try different tactics, to do things that commercial publishing considers "wrong". The original article, with its hectoring tone and "you're all wrong and there will be consequences and it's all your fault!!" really, really rubs me the wrong way.

My authority to speak? I made... Um, enough to cover my web hosting bill last month, my first month. All shall envy me and despair!


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I made... Um, enough to cover my web hosting bill last month, my first month. All shall envy me and despair!


Congrats! (And thanks for the snicker.)


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

eleanorberesford said:


> Hell, you make me wish I could write JAFF (literary and historical fanfic has long been my bag) except I know it would end up being about Jane discovering Darcy and Bingley together and finding a new life and love with Caroline. And I don't think that's what your audience is looking for.
> 
> My authority to speak? I made... Um, enough to cover my web hosting bill last month, my first month. All shall envy me and despair!


Maybe not all of my audience, but some. It's called Slash. There's Pride/Prejudice by Anne Herendeen published by Harper Collins. Darcy does Bingley, Elizabeth was with Charlotte, not Caroline, and Darcy is a member of the Brotherhood of Philanderers. 

And you'd have authority even without paying any bill this month for your writing. We all do.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

MeganBryce said:


> I think everyone has missed the most important post in this thread:
> 
> Oh. My. God! 2020 is in 5 years? When the hell did the future get here?!


I wrote that and stared at it for several long seconds. In less than five years people will be saying "in the '20s" and they'll be talking about the present decade, not the 'roaring' version.


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## Dactyl (Dec 27, 2014)

MyraScott said:


> You give out a free sample to whet the appetite and demonstrate in a physical way, how good the product is so that consumers will pay for it in the future.


Sample means sample. Food vendors at a food court in a mall give out tiny samples of their food, not entire meals, to "whet the appetite." So it should be with books. Amazon provides a sample of the book in its *Look inside* feature. That's plenty to peruse to decide if you want the book. Likewise at a physical book store. You don't go into a book store and spend the day or maybe more than one full day reading the entire book before putting it back on the shelf and going elsewhere - or paying for it and leaving the store with or without it. While a very few people download a digital book in its entirety, read it, and then pay for it with a second download, such actions are rare. When 2,000 people download a free book, how many read it and then pay for it? Maybe one (1)? Get real, people.


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## Dactyl (Dec 27, 2014)

tiffanycherney said:


> "... the limitations of text."


I love that phrase. Think I will use it when the situation calls for it. Maybe even in a book!  Thanks!"

- Dactyl


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Dactyl said:


> Likewise at a physical book store. You don't go into a book store and spend the day or maybe more than one full day reading the entire book before putting it back on the shelf and going elsewhere


People used to do this quite a bit, back in the days when Borders was still a thing and B&N had big, comfortable chairs. Actually, a woman at one of my book signings told me she still did that because she couldn't afford to buy books. So, it's far from unheard of.

(I don't know where you're from, but this is in the US.)


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Dactyl said:


> Sample means sample. Food vendors at a food court in a mall give out tiny samples of their food, not entire meals, to "whet the appetite." So it should be with books. Amazon provides a sample of the book in its *Look inside* feature. That's plenty to peruse to decide if you want the book. Likewise at a physical book store. You don't go into a book store and spend the day or maybe more than one full day reading the entire book before putting it back on the shelf and going elsewhere - or paying for it and leaving the store with or without it. While a very few people download a digital book in its entirety, read it, and then pay for it with a second download, such actions are rare. When 2,000 people download a free book, how many read it and then pay for it? Maybe one (1)? Get real, people.


No. Many authors have terrific sell-through from the first book. I did my first free period for 3 days, one week into my publishing career. I gave away 14,000 books with no advertising, and sold 2,000 books at 3.99 in the next 3 weeks, making $5000 in my first month. In my fifth month, I did a 5-day free offer, again without advertising, gave away 92,300 books, and sold 20,000 books that month. My subsequent free offers have also gone along those lines. I made my first book permafree about two months ago. By that time, two years-plus into its life, it had sold more than 90,000 copies in English, German, and audio. I'd offered it free for probably about 20? days during that period as well.

As I said--once you make it free, it's on the book. The cover and blurb have to make people want to read it now. The first few pages have to suck them in. The book has to keep them reading and make them want your next one.

Note I don't write true series with continuing characters or cliffhangers. I write stand-alones in the same world, as do many, many contemp Rom authors making bank with an occasional or permanent free book.

If free doesn't sell your next books, or if, whatever your price, your first also-boughts aren't your other books, that is not about the price. It's about the book. You may want to read your reviews, ask somebody knowledgeable whether your book needs editing, etc., and try to determine what you can do to make your books more appealing.

Maybe I'd have got there without free. I sure wouldn't have got there so fast or with so little effort.
Free days were a tool offered by KDP Select. It's no more a shortcut or a gimmick to use those tools than it is to use advertising or social media or posting samples on one's blog. I use what works for me, as long as it is legal and ethical.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Dactyl said:


> While a very few people download a digital book in its entirety, read it, and then pay for it with a second download, such actions are rare. When 2,000 people download a free book, how many read it and then pay for it? Maybe one (1)? Get real, people.


Tell that to the thousands of authors who are making six and seven figures a year because of free. A LOT of them used to post here but got tired of being called liars.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Tell that to the thousands of authors who are making six and seven figures a year because of free. A LOT of them used to post here but got tired of being called liars.


Or that somehow, because we have done so well, our methods and strategy wouldn't work for others. Yes, you first have to write books people want to read. But after that, I'd really, really advise studying the pricing and marketing strategy of the most successful people and seeing how they've done it--even if you decide to pursue a different marketing path.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> When 2,000 people download a free book, how many read it and then pay for it? Maybe one (1)? Get real, people.


Very few! That's why this is more a strategy for a series, as I think, several of us have made pains to disclose since the beginning. For a series sell-thru tends to be between 5-10% to installment two.

That said, I know a romance author here who gave away freebies to get reviews, then raised the price, and did quite well on a standalone novel. A REALLY helpful thread would be how to market a standalone ... there are a few success stories.


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## Lo/Roxie (May 11, 2011)

C. Gockel said:


> I regularly point my readers to my 1 million words of free fanfiction. No Thor/Loki though, mostly Darcy/Loki ... but I have a fun Captain America/Loki fiction out there ...


/Threadjack

Um. Link please?! I think I've read every single piece of Loki/Darcy fanfic on AoOO. It's one of my favorite ships.

/Threadjack

On topic: I'm a fan of permafrees as part of a product funnel. I do it with two of my series and am preparing to add two more permafrees for two new series that will continue or launch this year. For me, it works.

But I'm not here to proselytize. We're all on different paths and want different things. I had specific goals in mine, and I have achieved each of them--by utilizing permafrees and 99 cent sales and bundles.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Dactyl said:


> Sample means sample. Food vendors at a food court in a mall give out tiny samples of their food, not entire meals, to "whet the appetite." So it should be with books. Amazon provides a sample of the book in its *Look inside* feature. That's plenty to peruse to decide if you want the book. Likewise at a physical book store. You don't go into a book store and spend the day or maybe more than one full day reading the entire book before putting it back on the shelf and going elsewhere - or paying for it and leaving the store with or without it. While a very few people download a digital book in its entirety, read it, and then pay for it with a second download, such actions are rare. When 2,000 people download a free book, how many read it and then pay for it? Maybe one (1)? Get real, people.


Little piece of advice. If you don't want to give away your book, then don't. 
I have seen too many books that the sample is perfect but the rest of the book is gibberish. 
Now I pick up first book free and then have been known to buy the author's entire catalog.
Now if you only have ONE book, free in any form will not help you.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Lo/Roxie--I'll PM you.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

**********


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Dactyl said:


> Sample means sample. Food vendors at a food court in a mall give out tiny samples of their food, not entire meals, to "whet the appetite." So it should be with books. Amazon provides a sample of the book in its *Look inside* feature. That's plenty to peruse to decide if you want the book. Likewise at a physical book store. You don't go into a book store and spend the day or maybe more than one full day reading the entire book before putting it back on the shelf and going elsewhere - or paying for it and leaving the store with or without it. While a very few people download a digital book in its entirety, read it, and then pay for it with a second download, such actions are rare. When 2,000 people download a free book, how many read it and then pay for it? Maybe one (1)? Get real, people.


actually, if 2000 people download my book, 200 go on to buy the rest of the series. I crunched last years numbers, and that's what they showed me.

it is pretty clear that you have never tried to perma free, so I'm not sure where that one person out of a 2000 statistic came from.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I'm not going to stop sharing my methods


Thanks for that. It's appreciated. 



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> This isn't the first thread where it's been me and a few others being told we are leading others astray


No, not at all.

It's very common.

Some opinions are just more welcome here than others.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I have in my hands right now a coupon for a free sandwich from Chik-Fil-A.

Actually, I have five of them because the cow out by Target was giving them out like water and I picked up what other people dropped by the basket line. Pretty much the only time I eat there because I don't want to give them money, but that's besides the point.

This big giant corporate entity probably gave away a couple thousand $3 sandwiches today. Not a tiny sample. Not a preview of chicken to come. A whole sandwich.

Why?

Well first, because that's probably going to translate into a thousand orders of waffle fries, drinks and deserts from people who want to get a whole lunch with their free sandwich and humanity's poor psychology tells them 'hey, I just saved $3 on sandwiches, I can afford fries'. Second, because some of those free sandwich eaters are now going to have a taste for those sandwiches next time they want lunch and they had too much dignity to pick up a fistful of coupons from under a basket line. Third, because people are now going to have a better opinion of the place that gave them a free sandwich than those jerks across the street at Five Guys who never gave them anything.

It's _almost_ like giving a complete product away for free has a lot of positive benefits.

But nah, I'm sure they're just fools. FOOLS, I SAY. Not like the savvy folks at Radio Shack that never even had so much as a clearance sale. Now those are some mad geniuses.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Also, I _am_ a husker.

We're all hucksters. We make out livings lying to people and selling those lies. How dare you sully the good name of Barnum while taking advantage of his legacy.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

LOL @ Radio Shack. They're having a clearance sale now, aren't they?

There's enough baloney is this thread to feed an army. Some people are open to ideas and some are only open to theirs. It's ironic that the some who are complaining about people saying their leading others astray are the only ones actually doing that.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

The Radio Shack by me is currently having a Going Out Of Business sale.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

wtvr said:


> The Radio Shack by me is currently having a Going Out Of Business sale.


Didn't I read where Amazon is thinking of buying space in Radio Shack stores to sell their imprint books? Maybe I'm thinking of another store.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> I don't think anybody minds hearing others' strategies.
> 
> It's just annoying to be told your strategy is stupid. Or a "gimmick." Or whatever. I'm not saying that about anybody's price-high strategy. You want to do it, you want to tell other people to do it--go for it! I'd be the last to say permafree is the only way, since I only did permafree a couple months ago. Not having it worked fine for me too.
> 
> ...


This x 100000000000


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Martitalbott said:


> Didn't I read where Amazon is thinking of buying space in Radio Shack stores to sell their imprint books? Maybe I'm thinking of another store.


Could be: http://www.businessinsider.com/radioshacks-bankruptcy-provides-amazon-with-a-huge-opportunity-2015-2


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Permafree is not as golden as it once was. Buy a Bookbud ad, get your book in the top 100 and the next day or week, it has dropped off. The first book in my Highlander Series stayed in the top 100 historical romance for over a year, but today it was at #100 and has probably fallen off by now. Of course, Sunday is a big sales day, so it might go back up tomorrow. Here's a link if you want to see what I'm talking about. http://amzn.com/B003XF1E36

The truth is, it's a numbers game. If my book has 100,000 free downloads to its credit (collected over five years), and someone runs and ad that gets them only 50,000, then they might only stay on the top for that day and then fall off. Two more ads, one every three months if Bookbub allows, and it could keep me off longer - provided I don't run an ad in the meantime.

Bottom line - with a permafree, it is harder to get to the top and harder to stay there than it ever has been before. This, on paid books, is what several traditionally published authors have been complaining about.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

That's really only with Amazon, who degrades books ranks hyper-fast.

The same ads can get you up there and keep you up on Kobo and BN.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> That's really only with Amazon, who degrades books ranks hyper-fast.
> 
> The same ads can get you up there and keep you up on Kobo and BN.


True. It is also because some of the ad sites only link a book to Amazon.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> As for training readers to expect free or ultra-discounted books, nobody knows me or remembers my name except for a couple of thousand people on my mailing list, and I'm no so sure about most of them, either. There is almost zero chance that a reader is going to see my freebie today and then stumble across me again in six months and think "No way, that's the cheap book guy!"


For the single author, no. But I think the training comes when enough individuals are doing the same thing. Then the readers see the free or cheap and don't want to budge beyond what they sense is the new normal.

However, I don't think 99c or free is the "normal" ebook readers expect.

ETA: But individual sellers do build up expectations. Take yard saling for example. My group may not remember the address, but when we get to the house, we may groan and think, that's the lady who thinks her used clothes are worth resale shop prices (or even almost "new" prices). But to go back to the market expectations--around where I live, you generally expect yard sale paperbacks to run about 25 cents to 50 cents and hard backs to run 50 cents to a dollar. Price outside that range and unless the buyer really loves the book, it generally won't sell--except to maybe someone new to buying at yard sales. That's because of expectations.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

This thread in a nutshell; Elizabeth saying she is making good money not using permafree. Permafree authors saying she could make GREAT money if she did.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Also, Elizabeth totally using permafree in the form of her website and not admitting it.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

No, Elizabeth saying I would not make great money being permafree and I would sacrifice too much brand power to do so even if I thought I could make more money. The authors in my genre that use free as part of their strategies, including permafree, don't see as many sales on their paid products. And, price literally makes no difference.

Look at the sales rankings of A Princess for Pemberley, Pride and Prejudice and Secrets, and Steady to His Purpose. You'll see that just about everything in the genre shoots right up on the Paid Kindle rankings, then the quality of the book dictates how slowly it falls back down. There are books that published the same time as me last year that I use to keep an eye on decay. Constantly publishing has allowed me to manage that decay. 

I think the biggest difference I have is that I REALLY do not want to make it "big" until I"m ready to do so. One of the super indies that was #1 on BN and Amazon back when I published got a trade deal and just published her second title last year. It flopped, relatively speaking. If I'm approached by a trade publisher, I can honestly say my readership isn't just looking for 99 cent book or a freebie from me, that they are truly expecting stories at X pace with X quality at retail prices. I think that will position me in a better position to say print only and it not be a losing prospect for a publisher with advantages in that realm because I DO sell paperbacks believe it or not even now. 

Put it to you this way, if your next release, just telling people on social media it was out, was enough to move your book to the top #1,000 in the Paid Kindle store at regular price, would you offer a discount? When A Spring Sentiment was #1100 in the Paid Kindle Store, Wayne had one of his great Bookbub runs back in September. He shared some of the sales he saw from the ad, and follow on sales. When I compared the math, what he would be making at .99 putting him in the top 10 of the kindle store, versus what I was making at $3.25, he was selling way more books than me, but not earning more. And that was before deducting the price of the ads. That's when I realized higher volume at a lower price is NOT always more money.

*I* experimented with preorders last fall so the book like By Consequence of Marriage peaked at #3,000 in the Paid Kindle store as a preorder in October, and then the first week it was out in December it peaked at #5,000 in the Paid Kindle Store. It was on preorder for 2 months, and netted me 500 sales that way. Now that I have a fanbase that BUYS me as a preorder, I am better served with a much SHORTER preorder period (just 3 days to a week) so those sales hit the same week and help me reach new lows on the Paid in Kindle store, and expose my book to new readers that way. 

Strategies change as you have more books and more followers. I just now am releasing on ALL platforms. That's going to be different. I'm now making more in Adsense each month too from traffic to my blog to read the stories. Not much, but it's getting closer to $100 a month there. I am literally getting paid to attract readers to my website. As EVERYTHING builds, everything rises. More titles = more royalties on all of the venues and more adsense monies and more readers signed up on my site.

It's a system that is built on NEW (new book, new chapter), not so much FREE, though I can use that buzz word when I say (New chapter up, read for FREE! link). 

What would be interesting would be for those with a permafree to try posting those chapters free on their blog and see how many people sign up to keep reading more vs how many mailing list signups they're getting at the back of their book. It might be a good idea for them double down on their FREE strategy so they are gaining and capturing readers both ways.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Also, Elizabeth totally using permafree in the form of her website and not admitting it.


If I've never admitted it, then how do you know? Oh . . . wait . . . I've said I use a form of free on my website in this very thread and you and I discussed the difference between being free in a retail spot (walking into the grocery store and taking a bottle of Tide) and being free in a non-retail spot (writing to the Tide company and them mailing you a bottle)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

let's keep the sniping at each other down to a minimum and Vaal, unless it was an actual cow handing out coupons, I don't appreciate your phraseology.  

Betsy
KB Mod
from oh-so-beautiful San Diego


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> What would be interesting would be for those with a permafree to try posting those chapters free on their blog and see how many people sign up to keep reading more vs how many mailing list signups they're getting at the back of their book. It might be a good idea for them double down on their FREE strategy so they are gaining and capturing readers both ways.


I would honestly never, ever, EVER put a sign-in wall on my site.

You have no idea how much traffic you're leaving on the table with that. I spent five years in the webcomics world watching the burning hulks of promising works falling out of the sky after blowing themselves up with that.

The kind of folks who will seek out blog entertainment are savvy enough to be highly suspicious of a site that wants their email address just to see free stuff--and well they should because that's phishing 101. It gets worse if they're conscientious enough to clean their cookies all the time and have to constantly log in until they hate you on a personal level for that little annoyance.

As for data, the thing you have to understand about the webcomic method is that the work is the advertisment and the free book serves as both a funnel to the site and the next books. The life cycle of my readers goes something like this (sadly, I cannot do a flow chart right now):

*Points of Entry*
Free Books
Site
Fan Fiction Presence
Forum Presence

*Leads To*Site
Paid Books
Free Books
Blog Articles*

Leads To*Site
Paid Books
Swag
Affiliate Links
Patreon (soon)
Straight Donations (to be replaced by above)
In effect, everything feeds everything else. The point is to sell to person #1 if possible, but more importantly, make them tell persons 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 because they will tell persons 7-20 and somewhere in persons 1-20, some of them are going to give you money and tell more people.

These days, most of my links come from fans posting links from geek forums and most of my buys come through my bookstore. I have created an ecosystem that feeds itself, reproduces with little outside work, and excretes money directly into my wallet.

The only promos I really do these days are my ENT ads whenever they come up, work with the Pen and Cape Society, and all the no-cost ads I get to do literally at will thanks to being permafree.

[Edit: BOLD IS LIKE CAPSLOCKS FOR SERIOUSNESS]


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks,
> 
> let's keep the sniping at each other down to a minimum and Vaal, unless it was an actual cow handing out coupons, I don't appreciate your phraseology.
> 
> ...


It was totally an actual cow. Well dude in a cow suit. He was wearing a jersey and I wondered if the pun was intentional.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks,
> 
> let's keep the sniping at each other down to a minimum and Vaal, unless it was an actual cow handing out coupons, I don't appreciate your phraseology.
> 
> ...


Considering it was Chick-fil-A, I assumed it was their cow mascot thingy.

eta: I see it was.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I actually DO know how much traffic I am losing off of that. It's not much.  If you use Google Analytics, you can track page traffic and drop off. I can actually look on any given day who goes:

Autumn Accord Chapter 1 to Autumn Accord Chapter 2 etc. etc. 

And again, I am interested in a curated list of readers interested in my books for free. And I am adding listening events to see at what chapter, if any, my readers click on a buy button at the bottom to go to a retail store and buy the book or a different book in the series.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Monique said:


> Considering it was Chick-fil-A, I assumed it was their cow mascot thingy.
> 
> eta: I see it was.


Yeah. They have to use a cow, because there are no bigot costumes.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Caddy said:


> Yeah. They have to use a cow, because there are no bigot costumes.


So many jokes, so not allowed to make any of them here.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Vaalingrade said:


> It was totally an actual cow. Well dude in a cow suit. He was wearing a jersey and I wondered if the pun was intentional.


Ah....I don't eat at fast food places, so didn't catch that. I apologize for thinking so poorly of you. 

But I stand by the cut back on the sniping comment. 

Betsy


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> actually, if 2000 people download my book, 200 go on to buy the rest of the series. I crunched last years numbers, and that's what they showed me.
> 
> it is pretty clear that you have never tried to perma free, so I'm not sure where that one person out of a 2000 statistic came from.


Annie, thanks for saving me. I said on this thread that most books are free. So if you have 2,000 free downloads of your first book, and then 200 sales of each of nine books in a series, you have a total of 3,800 books issued, of which only 1,800 were paid, so that's only 47%. Just don't put out another book and ruin my thesis.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

555aaa said:


> Annie, thanks for saving me. I said on this thread that most books are free. So if you have 2,000 free downloads of your first book, and then 200 sales of each of nine books in a series, you have a total of 3,800 books issued, of which only 1,800 were paid, so that's only 47%. Just don't put out another book and ruin my thesis.


Man my head hurts now.  I'm awful at math. That's why I'm a writer!


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Caddy said:


> Yeah. They have to use a cow, because there are no bigot costumes.


Yup. Just gave me my first true lol of this thread. )


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Caddy said:


> Yeah. They have to use a cow, because there are no bigot costumes.


_*snort*_



Betsy the Quilter said:


> <snip>I don't eat at fast food places</snip>


Aha... the plot thickens.

* Hasn't worn shoes since Woodstock
* Met husband at Alice's Restaurant
* Quilts
* Doesn't eat fast food

A homesteading, macrobiotic hippie.

I rest my case.


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