# Real Costs of Self Publishing?



## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Found this article about costs of self-publishing. Seems on target about book covers, how about other stats? How are authors here budgeting their book release? 

http://www.pbs.org/mediashift/2013/05/the-real-costs-of-self-publishing-book

Cheers


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

Some of those services are unnecessary and some of them show inflated pricing. For example, the low end of a book cover is nowhere near $150. Also, paying for reviews is ridiculous and I certainly do not require a PR firm.

Edit: For the record, I was referring to pre-made book covers. I see she already mentions pre-mades in the article. I missed that.


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## Michael Kingswood (Feb 18, 2011)

I enjoy sailing, though I sold my boat a couple years ago when I had to move across the country.  I've cruised up and down the east coast and have spent a bunch of time on cruising forums.  The question always comes up: how much does it cost to go cruising around for a while on a sailboat?  The answer to that question is the same as the answer to the question of how much it really costs to self-publish a book: as much as you have to spend.  You could cruise on a sailboat for a year for a couple grand, or a couple hundred grand.  Same with publishing a book.  The costs go from nothing to many thousands.  It's all in how much you can, or want to, spend.

Of course, publishing a book is a business decision, not a leisure one, so you'd be silly to spend any more than really necessary, because you kindof sortof need to earn a profit if you want to keep doing it.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2013)

Costs in this article are inflated.

You do not need to print 1,000 books to store in your garage.
I had a 244-page book printed 200 copies at a time. Cost? $5 per book which included shipping from Florida printer to CA.
Book was priced at $19.95 which I listed on Facebook as an independent vendor.
Facebook paid 70% royalty (about $14) and shipping. And Facebook paid me in 14 DAYS!
That beats Print On Demand or trad publishing.


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

I agree with the few posters who mentioned that her prices are inflated. I would emphasize EXTREMELY inflated.


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## phil1861 (Dec 22, 2011)

Budget based on the last book's editing and cover design and layout costs. Editing is a set cost, so is our cover design (we own our own cover images and cost is just to have our designer do the layout), LoC registration, image copyright; those are all fairly set amounts. 

POD replaces mass printing and I've found it more cost effective in time and money to concentrate on digital distribution anyway. I've not read the link, but sounds like pre-eReader revolution set of tasks that you had to do like printing and the rest stuff that you "could" do but not necessarily need to do.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

You also don't have to pay $125 for one ISBN if you go through CreateSpace - there, it's only $10.  They also have a $99 price, but I'm not totally sure what the difference is between the two - the more expensive one is world wide, I believe, but I don't really understand the practical differences.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

Aside from the inflated prices, it seems that the author of the article has a company that helps locate "services" for authors.
_
Miral Sattar is founder and CEO of BiblioCrunch, an award-winning author services marketplace that matches authors with quality, award-winning professionals to get new books and apps to market._


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

David Scroggins said:


> Some of those services are unnecessary and some of them show inflated pricing. For example, the low end of a book cover is nowhere near $150. Also, paying for reviews is ridiculous and I certainly do not require a PR firm.


Talent-wise, $100 is rock bottom end for custom made cover. $150 is low-ish. Since most authors don't see the difference (technical execution and details in manipulations) between cover for $80 and say a cover for $300, it may look inflated but it isn't at all. Again, talent wise which is hard to judge for non-designers. Inflated is $3750 for fostercovers.com cover where you pay for his name and awards mostly.. and surprisingly he still does about 50-70 covers a year!!! (I know, I asked!)

PR firm might make bit sense to Non-Fiction author, but yeah, seems it's useless for self-publishers.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

David Scroggins said:


> Aside from the inflated prices, it seems that the author of the article has a company that helps locate "services" for authors.
> _
> Miral Sattar is founder and CEO of BiblioCrunch, an award-winning author services marketplace that matches authors with quality, award-winning professionals to get new books and apps to market._


You're implying it's bad for people to have a marketplace where other people can offer services for sale?


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

RBC said:


> Talent-wise, $100 is rock bottom end for custom made cover. $150 is low-ish. Since most authors don't see the difference (technical execution and details in manipulations) between cover for $80 and say a cover for $300, it may look inflated but it isn't at all. Again, talent wise which is hard to judge for non-designers. Inflated is $3750 for fostercovers.com cover where you pay for his name and awards mostly.. and surprisingly he still does about 50-70 covers a year!!! (I know, I asked!)
> 
> PR firm might make bit sense to Non-Fiction author, but yeah, seems it's useless for self-publishers.


I wasn't referring to covers that are specifically custom designed. I was also referring to the use of stock images and pre-mades as well. I went back and read over the article again, and she does mention pre-made covers, so I'll be more than happy to withdraw that statement. I am very well aware that custom designs can be quite expensive and are more than worth the money.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

RBC said:


> You're implying it's bad for people to have a marketplace where other people can offer services for sale?


I love making money and love it when others are successful in making money, so nope. Never said that. I was implying that her expensive pricing for PR firms and such were interesting, considering her company offers / helps locate those services. With all due respect to you, please do not put words in my mouth. On the other hand, if I have taken what you said the wrong way, my apologies.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

David Scroggins said:


> I wasn't referring to covers that are specifically custom designed. I was also referring to the use of stock images and pre-mades as well. I went back and read over the article again, and she does mention pre-made covers, so I'll be more than happy to withdraw that statement. I am very well aware that custom designs can be quite expensive and are more than worth the money.


Yup, I just meant custom ones. Premades go way cheaper. I mean just calculate hourly rates, if someone sells custom covers for $70.. how much is their hour worth? 7 bucks? ( I'd say average time needed to come up with 3 concepts and then revisions will be at least 8 hours) That's really low for designer. And that's not calculating costs of stock photos.  Premades at least take less time so designers can sell them cheaper.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

RBC said:


> Yup, I just meant custom ones. Premades go way cheaper. I mean just calculate hourly rates, if someone sells custom covers for $70.. how much is their hour worth? 7 bucks? ( I'd say average time needed to come up with 3 concepts and then revisions will be at least 8 hours) That's really low for designer. And that's not calculating costs of stock photos.  Premades at least take less time so designers can sell them cheaper.


Agreed completely. Unless they're running a special, I wouldn't want to buy a cheap custom cover. I'd want to pay for quality.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

I bet that, aside from publishing design experts like Joel, nobody can tell the difference for a lot of us who did it much cheaper.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

David Scroggins said:


> Where did you see that at all? When did I say that? I was implying that her expensive pricing for PR firms and such were interesting, considering her company offers / helps locate those services. With all due respect to you, please do not put words in my mouth, as I am not in the mood for it today. On the other hand, if I have taken what you said the wrong way, my apologies.


 I'm asking, because that seems your implication. Her company is marketplace for many services offered not just PR. So it makes sense that when she writes articles she is talking about all services and all price ranges. I mean take me, a cover designer, as example, if I was to write articles on that site mention pricing ranges, would you look at it as it's not being good and honest article? It is a common practice to write guest posts on blog like that talking about stuff you do/have related experts write etc.

Asking because it kinda puts service providers in a bad spot. We can't write articles which are a good way to promote your service and get your name out.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

RBC said:


> I'm asking, because that seems your implication. Her company is marketplace for many services offered not just PR. So it makes sense that when she writes articles she is talking about all services and all price ranges. I mean take me, a cover designer, as example, if I was to write articles on that site mention pricing ranges, would you look at it as it's not being good and honest article?


I wouldn't judge you in the slightest based on that. I would have to weigh your costs with my experiences and relationships with similar designers and use my best judgment. Since I find much of her advice not useful for the majority of indies, I can't take an article that she writes on the subject seriously. If you wrote an article that was useful and in-line with what I already know to be true, I would be more than happy to assume that the advice I was not privy to in your article was perfectly sound.

She's writing about self-publishing. $150 and up for a great custom cover is more than acceptable. However, when you start talking about spending thousands of dollars on publicists, up to $18,000 on developmental editing and some of the other things mentioned, I have to shake my head and walk away. Those might be perfectly useful services to some writers, but to the average indie? No.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

David Scroggins said:


> I wouldn't judge you in the slightest based on that. I would have to weigh your costs with my experiences and relationships with similar designers and use my best judgment. Since I find much of her advice not useful for the majority of indies, I can't take an article that she writes on the subject seriously. If you wrote an article that was useful and in-line with what I already know to be true, I would be more than happy to assume that the advice I was not privy to in your article was perfectly sound.
> 
> She's writing about self-publishing. $150 and up for a great custom cover is more than acceptable. However, when you start talking about spending thousands of dollars on publicists, up to $18,000 on developmental editing and some of the other things mentioned, I have to shake my head and walk away. Those might be perfectly useful services to some writers, but to the average indie? No.


That's good hear!

I think that article was more about Price Ranges then about specific advice for average indy. I like when people do that and go to all price ranges. I see your point about PR, but say for editing - is 18k that much for developmental editing where many many hours are spent? I assume when she mentions top price ranges it's for World Class specialists who are hired by Publishers or a handful of self pubbers. That's why I don't find this article too misinformative. It's just very broad in terms of levels of service. I actually think Joel Friedlander's blog has same numbers mentioned for top prices (or maybe his ebook from blog).


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I have no argument with her high end pricing but some of what she describes as the "low end" is, in my experience, closer to the middle. 

Copyediting - her "low end" is double what I've paid, but I acknowledge there's a lot of variance among editors, depending on experience and other factors 

Covers - low end price is slightly inflated but not too far off

ISBN pricing seems off

But in all, it's the most accurate list of prices I've seen in these sorts of articles.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

RBC said:


> That's good hear!
> 
> I think that article was more about Price Ranges then about specific advice for average indy. I like when people do that and go to all price ranges. I see your point about PR, but say for editing - is 18k that much for developmental editing where many many hours are spent? I assume when she mentions top price ranges it's for World Class specialists who are hired by Publishers or a handful of self pubbers. That's why I don't find this article too misinformative. It's just very broad in terms of levels of service. I actually think Joel Friedlander's blog has same numbers mentioned for top prices (or maybe his ebook from blog).


Well, for the best of the best, you're going to spend lots of money. That should be expected. My point is that this article is written for indies. Those prices (save for a few services) aren't cost-effective for the majority of self-publishers. Once you're making enough money to go with the best of the best, you're probably being hounded by agents, major publishers and some smaller publishing houses. Also, if you're making enough money self-publishing to pay for that $18k editor or the $5k per month publicist, you probably don't need them.

My beef with the article isn't that these aren't valuable services that are worth every penny, because they are valuable services. My issue is that some of the advice is really aimed at the wrong market, which I think could end up discouraging a lot of talented people from getting into the business of publishing books. In short, the prices are inflated for the market being targeted.

Of course, this is merely the opinion of someone who is just now making enough money to earn a living self-publishing. I'm always open to the idea that I could be wrong on some of these points.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

David Scroggins said:


> Well, for the best of the best, you're going to spend lots of money. That should be expected. My point is that this article is written for indies. Those prices (save for a few services) aren't cost-effective for the majority of self-publishers. Once you're making enough money to go with the best of the best, you're probably being hounded by agents, major publishers and some smaller publishing houses. Also, if you're making enough money self-publishing to pay for that $18k editor or the $5k per month publicist, you probably don't need them.
> 
> My beef with the article isn't that these aren't valuable services that are worth every penny, because they are valuable services. My issue is that some of the advice is really aimed at the wrong market, which I think could end up discouraging a lot of talented people from getting into the business of publishing books. In short, the prices are inflated for the market being targeted.
> 
> Of course, this is merely the opinion of someone who is just now making enough money to earn a living self-publishing. I'm always open to the idea that I could be wrong on some of these points.


But can you provide someone new with a good enough reference point with leaving out top end prices? At least that way, you know a little better in what level of talent you are shopping yourself. 

Congratulations on earnings, btw! Good job!


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

RBC said:


> But can you provide someone new with a good enough reference point with leaving out top end prices? At least that way, you know a little better in what level of talent you are shopping yourself.
> 
> Congratulations on earnings, btw! Good job!


I can agree with that much. And thanks, by the way!


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

David Scroggins said:


> I can agree with that much. And thanks, by the way!


Cheers! Good discussion too!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with the cost categories. Authors use some or all of them. But I see no reason to accept the dollar costs listed.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

RBC said:


> Cheers! Good discussion too!


Indeed. Sorry if I went toward the "heated" direction for a moment. I'm approaching a deadline for my book and my parrot was screaming in my face at the time.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

David Scroggins said:


> Indeed. Sorry if I went toward the "heated" direction for a moment. I'm approaching a deadline for my book and my parrot was screaming in my face at the time.


Haha.. no worries, no hard feelings from my side!

Good luck with the book


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## phildukephd (Jan 6, 2013)

I believe many Indies cannot afford these prices, which are inflated and also unnecessary. I do it all myself.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

The prices are just fine. They go from low to high, not from rock-bottom-beg-a-friend-hire-a-student to medium.

For the record, I'm all for rock-bottom-beg-a-friend-hire-a-student-or-diy, but not everyone is going to have those resources.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

Dalya said:


> I'm all for rock-bottom-beg-a-friend-hire-a-student-or-diy, but not everyone is going to have those resources.


That's me, too. If I can't learn how to do it myself, I'll either beg my wife (who has an art degree) or get a friend to do it. Now, for certain genres like fantasy, I hire people like the amazing Keith Draws to make my covers because I want those books to jump out and slap people in the face with their beauty. For everything else, it's either a pre-made or I'll do it myself.

I think my love of not spending money is probably what made me react like I did to this article. I guess I'm just a huge advocate of DIY for as much as possible. Like you said though, not everyone can do that.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Interesting article and some interesting responses.  I like the editor who said he'd not take on a project that required $18,000 worth of editing.  I was thinking myself that surely if you needed that much work done on your ms, it's not really viable.

Also the comment about the big publishers spending $10,000 on editing a badly written work!  Why are they taking on books that need that much work?  The only thing I can think is that it's a celeb or sportsperson writing and then they are getting in a ghostwriter or book doctor to fix it up.  I can't imagine investing that much money in a fiction writer unless they are huge name guaranteed to be a best seller.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

kathrynoh said:


> Interesting article and some interesting responses. I like the editor who said he'd not take on a project that required $18,000 worth of editing. I was thinking myself that surely if you needed that much work done on your ms, it's not really viable.
> 
> Also the comment about the big publishers spending $10,000 on editing a badly written work!  Why are they taking on books that need that much work? The only thing I can think is that it's a celeb or sportsperson writing and then they are getting in a ghostwriter or book doctor to fix it up. I can't imagine investing that much money in a fiction writer unless they are huge name guaranteed to be a best seller.


Isn't developmental editing different from editing? Or am I mixing it with Copyediting too?


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## Zoe York (May 12, 2013)

It could also be a previously contracted work - many experienced writers submit on synopsis/outline only, and then start writing. 

I once saw a blog entry by Shannon Stacey where she talked about how much editing her books needed - one was signed off literally 3 hours after her editor received it, the other was deconstructed and re-written repeatedly. That's a worthwhile investment of time from her editor, because when she does get it right, it'll be a hit. 

If Shannon decided to self-publish, but hit a road block, it might be worth her while to hire a developmental editor in the range described in that article.

For an unknown, first time author? That's a terrible idea. TERRIBLE. And I think the article didn't do a good enough job of differentiating between what authors might need which services, at each level. Given the business the author's in, that's a shame.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

David Scroggins said:


> That's me, too. If I can't learn how to do it myself, I'll either beg my wife (who has an art degree) or get a friend to do it. Now, for certain genres like fantasy, I hire people like the amazing Keith Draws to make my covers because I want those books to jump out and slap people in the face with their beauty. For everything else, it's either a pre-made or I'll do it myself.
> 
> I think my love of not spending money is probably what made me react like I did to this article. I guess I'm just a huge advocate of DIY for as much as possible. Like you said though, not everyone can do that.


There are certain things I do not do well and I'd rather pay someone than have them poorly done. I'm rotten at proofreading my own work. I hire a proofreader. I am terrible at graphic design and I prefer to pay someone who is good at it. I pay an artist to do some of my covers and it's worth every penny. On the other hand, I ain't paying any PR guy or for reviews or a DE.

Other people have other skills. I know people who do a fine job of designing their own covers. It just depends on your skills or those of people close to you.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> There are certain things I do not do well and I'd rather pay someone than have them poorly done. I'm rotten at proofreading my own work. I hire a proofreader. I am terrible at graphic design and I prefer to pay someone who is good at it. I pay an artist to do some of my covers and it's worth every penny. On the other hand, I ain't paying any PR guy or for reviews or a DE.
> 
> Other people have other skills. I know people who do a fine job of designing their own covers. It just depends on your skills or those of people close to you.


Agreed on all points. I do my horror covers myself and let experts handle my fantasy. As for the PR and paid reviews? Blech.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

zoeyork said:


> If Shannon decided to self-publish, but hit a road block, it might be worth her while to hire a developmental editor in the range described in that article.
> 
> For an unknown, first time author? That's a terrible idea. TERRIBLE. And I think the article didn't do a good enough job of differentiating between what authors might need which services, at each level. Given the business the author's in, that's a shame.


But you're only talking from a price point of view.. how much is that editing for 18k worth for your future if it's improving your writing right for the first book and your next ones. Not only you can learn but you can also save on editing for next book etc.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RBC said:


> But you're only talking from a price point of view.. how much is that editing for 18k worth for your future if it's improving your writing right for the first book and your next ones. Not only you can learn but you can also save on editing for next book etc.


Perhaps we could ask successful independents if they spent $18,000.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Perhaps we could ask successful independents if they spent $18,000.


How many DEs are WORTH $18k for a single novel? I suspect none.

ETA: I happen to think it is worthwhile for a new author to work with one, but $18k?! That would probably run around $50 a page for the average novel. That is not a reasonable charge even for an experienced editor.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Michael Kingswood said:


> I enjoy sailing, though I sold my boat a couple years ago when I had to move across the country. I've cruised up and down the east coast and have spent a bunch of time on cruising forums. The question always comes up: how much does it cost to go cruising around for a while on a sailboat? The answer to that question is the same as the answer to the question of how much it really costs to self-publish a book: as much as you have to spend. You could cruise on a sailboat for a year for a couple grand, or a couple hundred grand. Same with publishing a book. The costs go from nothing to many thousands. It's all in how much you can, or want to, spend.
> 
> Of course, publishing a book is a business decision, not a leisure one, so you'd be silly to spend any more than really necessary, because you kindof sortof need to earn a profit if you want to keep doing it.


I loved this description


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Perhaps we could ask successful independents if they spent $18,000.


That would not be conclusive at all.. they could be making mistake just like others do... I don't think you must spend this much money, but there must be a reason why top end of pricing and talent exists. In every single thing, in every single industry. Publishing isn't unique and high prices doesn't mean people are trying to scam authors..


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RBC said:


> That would not be conclusive at all.. they could be making mistake just like others do... I don't think you must spend this much money, but there must be a reason why top end of pricing and talent exists. In every single thing, in every single industry. Publishing isn't unique and high prices doesn't mean people are trying to scam authors..


Of course it's not conclusive. Nothing in this thread is.

Price tells us little about the value of a service. We have to investigate the specific service.

One good reason for high prices is that some consumers think a high price for a service means it is better. So it's reasonable for others to offer a high priced service. Perhaps it's a Veblen good.

I agree publishing isn't unique. Books and widgets have lots in common.

I agree high prices do not define a scam.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

RBC said:


> That would not be conclusive at all.. they could be making mistake just like others do... I don't think you must spend this much money, but there must be a reason why top end of pricing and talent exists. In every single thing, in every single industry. Publishing isn't unique and high prices doesn't mean people are trying to scam authors..


But it's just not applicable to indies. Top-shelf developmental editors get paid $18K for a project because a publishing house insists that some books need them. Who's going to tell an indie author that their book is weak and needs 56 hours of developmental editing from the best editor in the business? Themselves? Unless Stephen King goes full-on indie and decides he can't work with anyone but his personal editor, it just seems.. unlikely.

I have no doubt this talent exists and charges this much in the publishing industry, but I'm not sure it's a part of the _indie_ publishing industry. So it's included for novelty value, I guess. But it's not helpful for a look at the "real" costs of self-publishing a novel.

Even the low-end of $2500 is pretty nuts for most indies. Some people do hire developmental editors, but the figures I recall seeing are usually lower than her low-end figure. And let's be real here--a lot of writers replicate this part of the process with alpha and beta readers as well as their own training. I mean, there's a reason we paid for all those college classes, workshops, and conferences, right? 

Some of the article's estimates are better than others, but the problem is she's often drawing on numbers from the traditional side. And those don't necessarily apply to the indie side of things, where production budgets are usually much lower. So a lot of us bargain-hunt and discover we can get 90-95% of the value for like 10% of the cost. That competition has led a lot of professional artists and editors to lower their prices some, because it's extra work (and thus money) they wouldn't get if they stuck by the rates they charge large publishers.

I think! I dunno, I could be all wrong. But the economics seem completely different between an indie book looking to sell 10,000 ebook copies at $2.99 and a trad book looking to sell 10,000 hardbacks at $27.99.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

I pay my development editor over $18,000 per book, but... she makes it based on royalties, not upfront.

If the book sells - she does gangbusters. If it doesn't - she eats beans.

I'm a strong believer in you eat what you kill...

My upfront budget per book is:

Cover: $100-400
Dev Editor: $1,000 (base)
Pro Reader: $350
Outside Line editor: $300-400
Formatting: $250
Marketing: $1,000

Now, the first couple of books I didn't do all that. I can say for certain how much of my own money I invested... but it wasn't much.
These days, I do a lot of the above in order to publish more books per year... to speed up the process.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Some of the article's estimates are better than others, but the problem is she's often drawing on numbers from the traditional side. And those don't necessarily apply to the indie side of things, where production budgets are usually much lower. So a lot of us bargain-hunt and discover we can get 90-95% of the value for like 10% of the cost. That competition has led a lot of professional artists and editors to lower their prices some, because it's extra work (and thus money) they wouldn't get if they stuck by the rates they charge large publishers.


You can't get 90% value for 10% of price. Not likely.. not in book cover design, not in other things probably. If you get it's one shot deal for when someone great is just starting out and builds up his name and thus charges way lower than his skill level for some time. And that doesn't happen often.. Great wouldn't be great if it was usual. 50% of the value for 10%? Possible.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I pay my development editor over $18,000 per book, but... she makes it based on royalties, not upfront.
> 
> If the book sells - she does gangbusters. If it doesn't - she eats beans.
> 
> ...


Nice arrangement! I guess she is up-an-coming editor? Or someone who is really established and working with publishers? That's a great deal. 

What do you get for 1k in marketing? Ads on Goodreads.com and book sites, etc?


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

A range is not the same thing as an average. You can pay anywhere from $50 to $50,000 for a flight. I'm not going to tell you from where to where or how you'll be flying. All flights are the same. Feel free to panic about the current state of air travel.

Me? I flapped my wings, slipped in the jet stream of others, and didn't pay a penny. But that won't scare people, and so it ain't news.


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## MQ (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but apart from the actual cost of self-publishing (ie. cover, editing, formatting, ads, etc), there is another cost: *TIME*. We spend a great deal time working on our books instead of spending that time doing other things that may provide monetary benefits.

I wished I could put a price on 'time'...this way I could write it off on my taxes


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Mobashar Qureshi said:


> I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but apart from the actual cost of self-publishing (ie. cover, editing, formatting, ads, etc), there is another cost: *TIME*. We spend a great deal time working on our books instead of spending that time doing other things that may provide monetary benefits.
> 
> I wished I could put a price on 'time'...this way I could write it off on my taxes


This is big issue with DIY mindset. Maybe you save $100 on a service by doing it yourself but hey, you just spent 20 hours trying to nail it.. which makes your time worth $5/hr..no one would work for that much if they were offered! Or worse, people spend even more time, hundreds of hours learning stuff to save some dollars and they think their time is Free.. Sadly, only thing you can't earn is Time, dollars you can earn back.. esp. with a skill that can be sold, like writing.

I've done it too, but I've been trying to get rid of it.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

RBC said:


> This is big issue with DIY mindset. Maybe you save $100 on a service by doing it yourself but hey, you just spent 20 hours trying to nail it.. which makes your time worth $5/hr..no one would work for that much if they were offered! Or worse, people spend even more time, hundreds of hours learning stuff to save some dollars and they think their time is Free.. Sadly, only thing you can't earn is Time, dollars you can earn back.. esp. with a skill that can be sold, like writing.
> 
> I've done it too, but I've been trying to get rid of it.


Another way to look at it, though, is that you can only put a value on your time if you were going to use it in a way that would make you money. If you get enjoyment from DIY, and the time would otherwise have been spent on recreation, you now have recreation that saves/makes you money. (For the record, I thought that formatting my book was fun. Seeing the manuscript morph from a shapeless text into a book gave me a gamelike thrill.)


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> Another way to look at it, though, is that you can only put a value on your time if you were going to use it in a way that would make you money. If you get enjoyment from DIY, and the time would otherwise have been spent on recreation, you now have recreation that saves/makes you money. (For the record, I thought that formatting my book was fun. Seeing the manuscript morph from a shapeless text into a book gave me a gamelike thrill.)


What if you write a short story instead, which improves your writing because it's practice and it's another avenue for your marketing or even income stream. Or writing few articles as freelancer that would actually pay you for your knowledge of some topic (which can be good practice for researching book content for future etc..). Gives you some more budget to pay for services.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> Another way to look at it, though, is that *you can only put a value on your time if you were going to use it in a way that would make you mone*y. If you get enjoyment from DIY, and the time would otherwise have been spent on recreation, you now have recreation that saves/makes you money. (For the record, I thought that formatting my book was fun. Seeing the manuscript morph from a shapeless text into a book gave me a gamelike thrill.)


If I put my time into writing instead of spending hundreds of hours dinking around with covers, it does make me money.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> If I put my time into writing instead of spending hundreds of hours dinking around with covers, it does make me money.


+ ONE MILLION


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

RBC said:


> This is big issue with DIY mindset. Maybe you save $100 on a service by doing it yourself but hey, you just spent 20 hours trying to nail it.. which makes your time worth $5/hr..no one would work for that much if they were offered! Or worse, people spend even more time, hundreds of hours learning stuff to save some dollars and they think their time is Free.. Sadly, only thing you can't earn is Time, dollars you can earn back.. esp. with a skill that can be sold, like writing.
> 
> I've done it too, but I've been trying to get rid of it.


I think you see a lot of successful indies going through this process. Starting out, a lot of us don't have a ton of money to invest in a book's production. Or you're just not sure you're going to earn your money back. To reduce up-front costs, then, a lot of us go the DIY route where possible, or start out with a good $50 cover instead of the great $500 one.

Then once people start earning, and their writing time gets more valuable, they start hiring more people and upping the budget on covers, editing, etc.

Others spend lots on their very first book, and that's plenty smart if you've got the money and you're confident you can earn it back, but that's not possible or prudent for everyone.

Anyway, hiring pros is often worth every penny, but if you're willing to put in a lot of time (either doing it yourself or hunting down someone who will do it for cheap), you can put together a pretty snazzy book for a lot less than the article suggests.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> I think you see a lot of successful indies going through this process. Starting out, a lot of us don't have a ton of money to invest in a book's production. Or you're just not sure you're going to earn your money back. To reduce up-front costs, then, a lot of us go the DIY route where possible, or start out with a good $50 cover instead of the great $500 one.
> 
> Then once people start earning, and their writing time gets more valuable, they start hiring more people and upping the budget on covers, editing, etc.
> 
> ...


I understand, I'm biased, but I'm on Opportunity cost side still. If you are doing or learning something you are not writing or improving your writing at the same time. 

That doesn't mean one should spend ten thousands on first book tho.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

RBC said:


> Nice arrangement! I guess she is up-an-coming editor? Or someone who is really established and working with publishers? That's a great deal.
> 
> What do you get for 1k in marketing? Ads on Goodreads.com and book sites, etc?


My editor, we call her Lou Grant in a skirt, is a very experienced. She was an editor for USA Today and others. I knew her from a previous career.

My books (the fiction ones) are in a unique genera, and I don't do the same marketing that would work for the typical fiction title.
The non-fiction are an even stranger animal yet.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> My editor, we call her Lou Grant in a skirt, is a very experienced. She was an editor for USA Today and others. I knew her from a previous career.
> 
> My books (the fiction ones) are in a unique genera, and I don't do the same marketing that would work for the typical fiction title.
> The non-fiction are an even stranger animal yet.


So she gets base fee of 1k and then royalties?

Good resourcefulness. Connections like that really help.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "You can't get 90% value for 10% of price."


What price? If $18,000 is the highest price, there is little reason to use it as a benchmark. Ten percent of $18,000 can easily be above the mean for a distribution of prices.

If another editor came on the scene charging $36,000 would that tell us anything about the incremental difference in delivered product between the $18,000 and $36,000 options?


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> What price? If $18,000 is the highest price, there is little reason to use it as a benchmark. Ten percent of $18,000 can easily be above the mean and mode for a distribution of prices.
> 
> If another editor came on the scene charging $36,000 would that tell us anything about the incremental difference in delivered product between the $18,000 and $36,000 options?


It may not be incremental... maybe that editor can get you into publishing house, maybe that editor has other useful connections for reviews, promotions etc. Maybe that editor is much better communicator and educator.. Experience is part of value too.. flying first class is different than flying Budget airlines.. Same flight, same route, price is way way different, experience is way different.

Depends on your value definition too.

Also, what sane service provider will provide 90% for 10% of price. That's route to bankruptcy.. sustainable only for a little while but not long term.


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## bonnerauthor (Jan 18, 2013)

RBC said:


> Found this article about costs of self-publishing. Seems on target about book covers, how about other stats? How are authors here budgeting their book release?
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/mediashift/2013/05/the-real-costs-of-self-publishing-book
> 
> Cheers


I think the comments are closer to the truth than the article. I think the author of the article researched probably right here on KB.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

bonnerauthor said:


> I think the comments are closer to the truth than the article. I think the author of the article researched probably right here on KB.


Prices would be way lower if she did research here.. Only few authors on this board would actually agree that the price ranges are accurate (judging from this thread).

Anyway, this has been interesting discussion. Good to see some budgets and expectations from authors for their books.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> If I put my time into writing instead of spending hundreds of hours dinking around with covers, it does make me money.


I'll admit, I came to that same conclusion about covers. I am illiterate in graphic arts. However, I think the time I spent formatting my book for Kindle probably 'made' me more money per hour than my day job does.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> I'll admit, I came to that same conclusion about covers. I am illiterate in graphic arts. However, I think the time I spent formatting my book for Kindle probably 'made' me more money per hour than my day job does.


Hey, if you enjoy it and it pays better than your job, should it become your new career until you can live off of writing? And maybe even keep doing it part time to supply your income when you do?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Also, what sane service provider will provide 90% for 10% of *price*. That's route to bankruptcy.. sustainable only for a little while but not long term."


What price? Are you referring to $18,000?



> "Experience is part of value too"


Only if that experience results in a better product delivered to the customer.



> "Depends on your value definition too. "


I use total revenue derived from the book.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> What price? Are you referring to $18,000?


Whatever top range price is. I actually think $18,000 is not the top price for editing..


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RBC said:


> Whatever top range price is. I actually think $18,000 is not the top price for editing..


Ok. In that case the top price is an outlier in a price distribution by definition. Let's say the median is $1,800. How much more revenue will be derived from the book by spending ten times the average price?

We can extend that by applying the same idea to all the services an author may contract. How much more does he earn by paying ten times the average price for cover, formatting, and web page?

"


> "Also, what sane service provider will provide 90% for 10% of price. That's route to bankruptcy.. sustainable only for a little while but not long term.""


Bankruptcy looms only if the editor pricing at ten percent of the maximum price is using more resources than he takes in. To answer that, we have to know the difference between the input resources of the outlier and the average.



> "If I put my time into writing instead of spending hundreds of hours dinking around with covers, it does make me money."


Sure it does. But we also have to consider maximizing benefit based on opportunity cost analysis demands a reserve of cash to pay for the services. If the cash is there, we can use it in a way that lets us be most efficient. If the cash isn't there, we have to use some other resource, which may be time.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

You know, if I felt my book needed $18,000 worth of developmental editing, I'd scrap the book and start over. but then, I'm not a celeb who is having her book ghost-written for her.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

RBC said:


> Hey, if you enjoy it and it pays better than your job, should it become your new career until you can live off of writing? And maybe even keep doing it part time to supply your income when you do?


It's a good thought!  Digging for gold _and_ selling shovels....


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

beccaprice said:


> You know, if I felt my book needed $18,000 worth of developmental editing, I'd scrap the book and start over. but then, I'm not a celeb who is having her book ghost-written for her.


Absolutely.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> It's a good though!  Digging for gold _and_ selling shovels....


Since you enjoyed it.. seems like a better career than working something you don't enjoy..


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Ok. In that case the top price is an outlier in a price distribution by definition. Let's say the median and mode are both $1,800. How much more revenue will be derived from the book by spending ten times the average price?
> 
> We can extend that by applying the same idea to all the services an author may contract. How much more does he earn by paying ten times the average price for cover, formatting, and web page?
> 
> ...


No way of telling that. Again, you might gain connections which could snowball your books sales, get you a movie deal, foreign rights sale etc.. or you may not. My money wold be on the fact that you might, since top level people tend to hang out with top level people in other fields which means good connections. Also some value is intangibles like how much your writing will improve after work with such editor at top price range. And how much that will indirectly help you sell more books later on because of seriously improved writing. Not easily quantifiable but could be huge..


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RBC said:


> *No way of telling that. *Again, you might gain connections which could snowball your books sales, get you a movie deal.. or you may not. My money wold be on the fact that you might, since top level people tend to hang out with top level people in other fields which means good connections. Also some value is intangibles like how much your writing will improve after work with such editor at top price range. And how much that will indirectly help you sell more books later on because of seriously improved writing. Not easily quantifiable but could be huge..


If there is no way of telling, then there is no support for the idea that the $18,000 option is superior to the $1,800 option.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

RBC said:


> So she gets base fee of 1k and then royalties?
> 
> Good resourcefulness. Connections like that really help.


Yes.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> If there is no way of telling, then there is no support for the idea that the $18,000 option is superior to the $1,800 option.


There is no way to say how your sales will do but there are ways that you can distinguish great editing from good. You get what you pay for. No way you get 90% of value for 10% of the price.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RBC said:


> There is no way to say how your sales will do but there are ways that you can distinguish great editing from good. You get what you pay for. No way you get 90% of value for 10% of the price.


Presuming great editing is a function of price, if we can't tell how many more dollars great editing generates vs good editing, what is the business case for selecting great over good?

If an editor charged $36,000, would that be even greater editing than the great $18,000 option?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Pick a number, any number. You can pay that for any service you desire if you find the right person.

As to this bibliocrunch website, I dislike it. I can't say I like the idea of paying a monthly fee to access what amounts to a smaller version of LinkedIn for writers. $25 a month just to search through a small list of author services providers and be able to send them an IM? ....... no, thank you. I'm sure lots of people will be taken under this scheme, but maybe it will help some of those who join more than they could've helped themselves.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Presuming great editing is a function of price, if we can't tell how many more dollars great editing generates vs good editing, what is the business case for selecting great over good?
> 
> If an editor charged $36,000, would that be even greater editing than the great $18,000 option?


Again, editing might give you huge benefit without huge books sales alone. I think improving your writing is worth more than one book sales.

That would be my assumption and obviously expectations would rise to that too. Background check would have to prove it. Maybe I'd even ask, what's the difference between 18k and 36k straight up..

There is a difference between driving Mercedes (luxury), Bentley Continental GT (exotic sports car+luxury) and a Rolls Royce (super luxury and comfort, incredible levels of customer service..)..


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "That would be my assumption and obviously expectations would rise to that too. Background check would have to prove it. Maybe I'd even ask, what's the difference between 18k and 36k straight up.. "


Perhaps we could look at background and ask the difference between $1,800 and $18,000 straight up, too. That seems better than presuming $18,000 is better than $1,800.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> That seems better than presuming $18,000 is better than $1,800.


Price communicates value. That's why it's there. Most of the time the presumption will be right. That's why we have them..


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## breadbagger (May 19, 2013)

I'm a complete newbie to this forum, and any writing I have done was always for a class or personal pleasure, so I am also pretty ignorant of the publishing industry, whether independent or traditional.  Maybe my ignorance is showing, but, although this thread has been somewhat interesting, it mostly seems like a thinly veiled promo for somebody hawking cover art.

Am I mistaken?

And, for what it's worth, I wonder how much Poe, or Dickens, or Sam Clemens would have spent on a "developmental editor", whatever the heck that is?


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

breadbagger said:


> I'm a complete newbie to this forum, and any writing I have done was always for a class or personal pleasure, so I am also pretty ignorant of the publishing industry, whether independent or traditional. Maybe my ignorance is showing, but, although this thread has been somewhat interesting, it mostly seems like a thinly veiled promo for somebody hawking cover art.
> 
> Am I mistaken?
> 
> And, for what it's worth, I wonder how much Poe, or Dickens, or Sam Clemens would have spent on a "developmental editor", whatever the heck that is?


Obviously I'm talking and promoting book cover design in this thread.. and telling I'm the best designer ever!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

RBC said:


> Price communicates value. That's why it's there. Most of the time the presumption will be right. That's why we have them..


Price only communicates value in a market with a sufficiently high velocity of trade. Price without trade communicates nothing. Markets also need information on which to base price. That means bidders look at background and even ask straight up what the difference is. Trade is the result of information, supply, and demand. Offer price is simply what someone asks.

How about an edit job offered at $100,000? Really, really greater than the $18,000 and $36,000 edits? What does the $100,000 communicate? Or would we need to know background, some straight up answers, and expected dollar return from the incremental cost?


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## cdvsmx5 (May 23, 2012)

RBC said:


> Obviously I'm talking and promoting book cover design in this thread.. and telling I'm the best designer ever!


Backfire!


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

breadbagger said:


> I'm a complete newbie to this forum, and any writing I have done was always for a class or personal pleasure, so I am also pretty ignorant of the publishing industry, whether independent or traditional. Maybe my ignorance is showing, but, although this thread has been somewhat interesting, it mostly seems like a thinly veiled promo for somebody hawking cover art.
> 
> Am I mistaken?
> 
> And, for what it's worth, I wonder how much Poe, or Dickens, or Sam Clemens would have spent on a "developmental editor", whatever the heck that is?


I don't think he's trying to sell us all covers, but his perspective is someone who sells higher-end cover art. So you should look at his opinion through that filter. Much as you should filter my opinion as some cheap SOB who thinks it's laughable to consider spending $20,000+ to publish a book unless your name is "Random House."


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## CaseyHollingshead (Dec 8, 2012)

I paid rock bottom for my book covers.

Not that I think they matter all that much. Some of my short stories sell remarkably well with very little effort. There's a lot of "catching a wave" thing going on with picking up an audience, IMO. I've seen plenty of really, really good books with zero sales even if they have good covers.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

RBC said:


> Price communicates value. That's why it's there. Most of the time the presumption will be right. That's why we have them..


The first question really should be can ANY editor do enough to justify paying $50 a page for editing.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> I don't think he's trying to sell us all covers, but his perspective is someone who sells higher-end cover art. So you should look at his opinion through that filter. Much as you should filter my opinion as some cheap SOB who thinks it's laughable to consider spending $20,000+ to publish a book unless your name is "Random House."


I wish I was at high-end!  I do think there is justification for high prices, there is justification for low prices. I don't get how people start barking at expensive providers as scammers (which I have seen many times, not specific to this thread).


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Price only communicates value in a market with a sufficiently high velocity of trade. Price without trade communicates nothing. Markets also need information on which to base price. That means bidders look at background and even ask straight up what the difference is. Trade is the result of information, supply, and demand. Offer price is simply what someone asks.
> 
> How about an edit job offered at $100,000? Really, really greater than the $18,000 and $36,000 edits? What does the $100,000 communicate? Or would we need to know background, some straight up answers, and expected dollar return from the incremental cost?


Dude, not saying don't check background and don't watch for return, your'e arguing wrong point here.. I'm saying there are reasons for why price ranges from rock bottom to top. And that it is worth it most likely. Maybe you can't afford one now but you will in the future. And maybe only after testing it you'd look back and see why there is a difference. Because like in cars, if you haven't driven a super fast sports car at 200 miles an hour you will think 100 is very fast. It's the limit of what you've experienced. But after driving at 200m/hr you will not think 100 is as fast as it can be.. Limited experience means limited judgement.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Hmm... If the ebook and indie revolution has taught us one thing it's that price doesn't communicate value. In this case, higher prices communicate publisher overheads and, in some cases, greed. Nothing to do with value.


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2013)

Price does not communicate value. Price is merely the actual cost of an item. Price fluctates based on market conditions and competition. 

Value is built through brand-building and pinpointing customer preferences. Is a $5 cup of coffee REALLY better than a $1 cup of coffee at Wawa or Dunkin Donuts? Are $100 sneakers with some basketball player's name stiched in the side better than a $40 pair? People can argue their personal preferences, but at the end of the day the items function in almost identical ways. 

I work in contract packaging (at least, until July 31st or until management decides what they are doing with my position). Do you have any idea the number of consumer products on the market in which the private label (store brand) is IDENTICAL to the name-brand? Identical product, make by the same manufacturer, just put in different packaging. The name brand version will sell for $5 a bottle and the private label will sell for $3. But there is zero difference. It's the same product in the bottle. Just different packaging designed to target different shopping demographics. 

So price has nothing to do with final value of a product or service.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Price does not communicate value. Price is merely the actual cost of an item. Price fluctates based on market conditions and competition.
> 
> Value is built through brand-building and pinpointing customer preferences. Is a $5 cup of coffee REALLY better than a $1 cup of coffee at Wawa or Dunkin Donuts? Are $100 sneakers with some basketball player's name stiched in the side better than a $40 pair? People can argue their personal preferences, but at the end of the day the items function in almost identical ways.
> 
> ...


Indeed. Also, the sweatshops making clothes for budget brands are the same sweatshops used for name brands. I really thought everyone was wise to this common misconception about price and value. Clearly I was wrong.


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## Michael Murray (Oct 31, 2011)

The article says: "Cost of review from Publishers Weekly PW Select: $149" - but when I look at PW Select, it says

"From the hundreds of books listed in each PW Select, approximately 25 percent are selected by our editors for a review."

So has anyone ever tried that? Seems like it would be a bummer to pay $149 for a 25% chance at a review.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Price does not communicate value. Price is merely the actual cost of an item. Price fluctates based on market conditions and competition.
> 
> Value is built through brand-building and pinpointing customer preferences. Is a $5 cup of coffee REALLY better than a $1 cup of coffee at Wawa or Dunkin Donuts? Are $100 sneakers with some basketball player's name stiched in the side better than a $40 pair? People can argue their personal preferences, but at the end of the day the items function in almost identical ways.
> 
> ...


Price is one of ways we judge and understand value. Not main one, I didn't mean that. Sometimes I don't buy thing just because it is cheapest. Many many people do it too. Or they buy cheap stuff for one thing but they wouldn't buy certain product if it was cheap. High price communicates that the thing you want to buy will be luxury and you can expect different materials and quality. Doesn't always happen but most of the time it does match. Still, price gives you expectations, and is one of the first things we see/judge.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> The first question really should be can ANY editor do enough to justify paying $50 a page for editing.


Excellent question.



> "Dude, not saying don't check background and don't watch for return, your'e arguing wrong point here.. I'm saying there are reasons for why price ranges from rock bottom to top. And that it is worth it most likely."


Most likely? Why? Is the $100,000 edit most likely worth the price?

And arguing the wrong point? What is the right point? I contend the highest offer price for editing tells us nothing about how the product compares to the average.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Michael Murray said:


> The article says: "Cost of review from Publishers Weekly PW Select: $149" - but when I look at PW Select, it says
> 
> "From the hundreds of books listed in each PW Select, approximately 25 percent are selected by our editors for a review."
> 
> So has anyone ever tried that? Seems like it would be a bummer to pay $149 for a 25% chance at a review.


Just speaking for myself, have I paid a premium for a 25% chance for my novel to be reviewed by a publication that has shown to have a consistently negative attitude toward indie authors? I think the answer to that would be a big *no*.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

breadbagger said:


> I'm a complete newbie to this forum, and any writing I have done was always for a class or personal pleasure, so I am also pretty ignorant of the publishing industry, whether independent or traditional. Maybe my ignorance is showing, but, although this thread has been somewhat interesting, it mostly seems like a thinly veiled promo for somebody hawking cover art.
> 
> Am I mistaken?
> 
> And, for what it's worth, I wonder how much Poe, or Dickens, or Sam Clemens would have spent on a "developmental editor" , whatever the heck that is?


Whatever the heck a developmental editor (also known as a substantive editor) is is an editor who works on the structure of a novel and "coaches" on the writing. Developmental editing often involves substantial revision and restructuring of the novel. Not many novels get worked on by a real DE. Poe, Dickens and Clemens had editors although there comes a point for most experienced writers when they tend to eschew DEs and substantive editing.

I believe you are mistaken. No one in this thread has solicited work. If you don't want to see the sigs where people's work and/or services are listed, you can turn those off.


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2013)

Michael Murray said:


> The article says: "Cost of review from Publishers Weekly PW Select: $149" - but when I look at PW Select, it says
> 
> "From the hundreds of books listed in each PW Select, approximately 25 percent are selected by our editors for a review."
> 
> So has anyone ever tried that? Seems like it would be a bummer to pay $149 for a 25% chance at a review.


That is just bad writing on the part of the person who wrote the article. The author doesn't understand what PW Select actually is.

PW Select is an *advertising supplement to PW*. You don't buy the review. It's an ad in the supplement. If you manage a review, it's sort of a bonus. If you have a print version of your book in distribution, particularly if you set up directly with LSI to offer market discounts and returnability, $149 for an ad that reaches decision makers in libraries and bookstores is a steal. But for most folks, if you are just marketing an ebook or if you don't really have a marketing plan for print distribution beyond using Createspace to get on Amazon, it is a waste of money.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> That is just bad writing on the part of the person who wrote the article. The author doesn't understand what PW Select actually is.
> 
> PW Select is an *advertising supplement to PW*. You don't buy the review. It's an ad in the supplement. If you manage a review, it's sort of a bonus. If you have a print version of your book in distribution, particularly if you set up directly with LSI to offer market discounts and returnability, $149 for an ad that reaches decision makers in libraries and bookstores is a steal. But for most folks, if you are just marketing an ebook or if you don't really have a marketing plan for print distribution beyond using Createspace to get on Amazon, it is a waste of money.


Julie, I seriously question how many of those decision makers in libraries and bookstores look at the advertising supplement. I also looked at it from that point of view and felt I would not get my money's worth. So whether you consider it a lottery chance at a review or advertising, I have a problem with whether it is worth the cost.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

kj..jk..

ETA: whoa, I just wrote out this HUGE freaking post and I hit post and it deleted ... I shall write it again when I stop crying.


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## breadbagger (May 19, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> I believe you are mistaken. No one in this thread has solicited work. If you don't want to see the sigs where people's work and/or services are listed, you can turn those off.


Ah hah! I hadn't realized I could turn the signatures off, until you pointed it out. Thank you so much!

Self-promotion in nearly every post made the forum seem a bit like trying to have Sunday school at a carnival, very distracting, and not too effective. It also contributed to my impression that this thread was more interested in promoting services, than in discussion or edification.

Now that I have turned the sigs off, the noise-to-signal ratio is MUCH better.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

There are self-published authors out there, who aren't spending close to that kind of money - even the low-end prices discussed in the article - and are successful.

To pretend like they don't exist pretty much invalidates the 'real' claim in the title.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> *****, I seriously question how many of those decision makers in libraries and bookstores look at the advertising supplement. I also looked at it from that point of view and felt I would not get my money's worth. So whether you consider it a lottery chance at a review or advertising, I have a problem with whether it is worth the cost.


People in the industry subscribe to magazines like PW and BookPages and others specifically to learn about new books. *IF* you have your book in distribution at a market discount with returnability, if you aren't advertising in those sort of publications you are missing the boat. That's how brick-and-mortar stores and libraries often learn about a book for the first time. If you don't have a plan to specifically target bookstores, then you are right. It's a waste of money. Don't place an ad if your book is non-returnable. Don't place an ad if your book is only on a short discount. Don't place an ad if your book is in Select and only on Amazon. But if you intend to go after that brick-and-mortar market, then print ads are still one of the primary ways to reach those people.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

breadbagger said:


> Ah hah! I hadn't realized I could turn the signatures off, until you pointed it out. Thank you so much!
> 
> Self-promotion in nearly every post made the forum seem a bit like trying to have Sunday school at a carnival, very distracting, and not too effective. It also contributed to my impression that this thread was more interested in promoting services, than in discussion or edification.
> 
> Now that I have turned the sigs off, the noise-to-signal ratio is MUCH better.


Some people find the sigs distracting, some enjoy being able to see the sigs as it can give context to what the poster is saying--for example if the poster is a cover designer and is commenting on artwork, or writes historical fiction and is commenting on that genre. Just sayin'. 

Betsy


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Some people find the sigs distracting, some enjoy being able to see the sigs as it can give context to what the poster is saying--for example if the poster is a cover designer and is commenting on artwork, or writes historical fiction and is commenting on that genre. Just sayin'.


Or the inverse, where someone spends a lot of time on here handing out advice about writing, yet has no books or links in their signature. Makes you go, hmm.


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