# Warning! Rant Alert! I hate cheats!



## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

There are many things that irritate me but one thing that really boils my blood is welfare cheats. In Australia we have a Social welfare system where if you're unemployed, sick, a single parent etc you are given money from the government to live on. We also have what we call the Housing Commission which provides extremely cheap accommodation for low income families and singles alike.

Many years ago I hurt my back very badly and although I tried to keep working after several years it became impossible and I was given a Disability Pension. This allows me to work at my writing full time and also to go to University and pursue knowledge simply for the love of it. I consider myself incredibly fortunate that we have this system and that I therefore have a chance to live a relatively comfortable life. Obviously when Robbie and I got married I informed Centrelink [as they're called] and my pension was quite drastically reduced due to Robbie's income but at least I have the peace of mind that I've done the right thing.

Unfortunately I cannot say the same for an acquaintance of mine. She is living in a de facto relationship of fourteen years standing yet collects a single mother's pension and also doesn't declare her de facto husband's presence to the Housing Commission, which would increase her rent based on her partner's earnings. She's been doing this for years and I absolutely cannot stand it - so much so that when I became aware of what she was doing I actually reported her to Centrelink's fraud department.

Now some of you may say I did the wrong thing and maybe I did, maybe it's none of my business. Where I'm coming from though is that I do a lot of charity work, much of it in a direct, hands on kind of way. I work once a fortnight on our food van, which supplies sausage sandwiches, soup, bread as well as any other treats or necessities that local businesses donate to our work. In my time on the food van I've met so many people who are really doing it tough, living homeless, sleeping in their cars etc. The stories I hear at the van nearly break my heart and I feel incredibly blessed that I'm in such a good position financially. I'm not rich but compared to a lot of the people I meet I am very wealthy - I can afford luxuries like a roof over my head, a fully stocked fridge and pantry, not to mention getting regular massages, pedicures, manicures, keep purebred and expensive dogs etc. I am, in comparison, wealthy beyond their wildest dreams, yet I don't cheat to have what I've got.

Nothing makes me madder than when I see people out there, cheating the system just for a few extra bucks - most of which I'm sad to say they spend on drugs. I'm sorry to unload all of this on you but I just had to vent. This kind of behavior is so selfish and self-centered that it simply astounds me. Especially when those cheats are making it difficult for the genuine cases to receive the welfare they're entitled to or the housing they're equally entitled to.

OK, rant over, thanks for listening.
Cheers,
Trace


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

I tend to think of fraud as something that generally hurts everybody and therefore is everybody's business. If someone appears to be committing fraud, I don't think reporting it is wrong. Looking the other way is condoning it, and (IMHO) _that_ would be the wrong thing.


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## J Dean (Feb 9, 2009)

You did the right thing in reporting it, and here in the States it happens far too often.  Unfortunately, whenever it's brought up, people scream bloody murder and accuse those of us who bring it up of not "being compassionate."

We reply that compassion is somebody getting a job when they are able to do so, and not stealing (yes, it IS stealing) money from fellow countrymen who earn honest wages and pay their taxes for people who really need it, not for people who want to loaf and not look for a job.

Yeah.. I'm thinking about making a short story about this one.


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## woulfe (May 22, 2012)

Couldn't agree more. We have a big problem with this type of carry on in Ireland, so many people claiming unemployment and working for cash on the side. This in my opinion is a double wammy as they are getting dole money paid out of the taxes I pay from my legitimate wages, plus they are earning and not contributing any tax on their illegitimate wages. Makes me very mad


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## Bill44 (May 25, 2012)

Traycea, speaking as a fellow Aussie you've done the right thing. It gets right up my nose to see the rorting of our system.


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## Vegas_Asian (Nov 2, 2008)

I see nothing wrong with what you did. 

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Katharina said:


> I have been homeless, and I sympathize with the charity work you are doing. Still, a rule among
> homeless people is: _You do not inform on others. Ever._
> Chances are the homeless people you chat with would lose their trust in you, if they knew
> what you had done. It always hampers _my_ ability to confide in a person when I learn she is someone
> who feel morally outraged over trivial things.


What is "trivial" about something that takes millions or billions of dollars away from those who really need help, diverting those funds to people who do not? No single drop wants to be blamed for the flood, but it does all add up to a non-trivial problem. Perhaps more help could be given to those with a _legitimate_ need if so much money was not going to those intentionally cheating the system. I think there is no greater injustice-enabling social rule than "do not inform on others." It foments all sorts of ills, from individual fraud up through neighborhood gangs all the way to violent organized crime.


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## sheiler1963 (Nov 23, 2011)

This is something very dear to my heart. In another time when I was in another place I was a single mother of an infant and working a dead end/minimum wage job. I was determined not to take assistance (even though I qualified for all of it). There were two times I tried to avail myself of programs to help me. The first time I tried to get help with child care so I could go to work. The case worker told me I made a whopping .98 cents A MONTH too much to qualify. I was nearly in tears as I laid out all my expenses and income and how if I paid everything as expected, I would be $90 short every month. She agreed that none of my expenses were out of line, just basics such as rent, food, utilities, gas for the car, diapers, and child care. I gladly offered to 'kick back' $1 a month to get help with child care. Of course that was rejected. The caseworker actually encouraged me to QUIT MY JOB in order to qualify for assistance. The second time I tried to take advantage of a rent assistance program. The woman I interviewed with was just a harridan. At one point she had a pointy red manicured nail in my face (IN MY FACE) and saying, 'Let me tell YOU how this works little missy.......' and something went squish in my head. I decided then and there that my baby was never going to see things like this, or to allow anyone to see us being treated like this. I wish I could say I stood up to that nasty woman and said something amazing.....but I didn't. I walked out in tears.
From there I spent many yrs living on the edge. That is all the story I will share because that was then and this is now. When people ask me how I made it happen my most common response is, 'I ate a LOT of peanut butter.' 
Now I own my home (with a mortgage) and my car outright and I have a great life. My baby is a college graduate living in DC following her dream of a career in Journalism.
I could have cheated, in fact the system ENCOURAGED cheating. I hate cheats too, but what I hate even more is a system that is devised to make being a slacker the easy way out.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Katharina, I appreciate your point of view but if you lived, as I do, partially reliant on a welfare system that is near collapse because of welfare cheats you may feel differently.  I'm not angry at the extra money she makes - as I said in my original post, compared to most of the people I work with on a regular basis I'm wealthy beyond their wildest dreams.  Ten dollars can be a fortune to someone at times.

The problem with welfare cheats is that as Crenal stated they are stealing from legitimate tax paying citizens.  My mother-in-law is 68 and has worked all her life since she was fifteen.  She has never used or abused the system even though there were opportunities to do so, especially when her two boys were young and putting them in day care so she could continue to work was a financial hardship.  I just believe, very strongly, that these welfare cheats just make it so much harder for the legitimate cases.  

I'm sorry you feel I did the wrong thing in informing on her but I had tried to talk to her on multiple previous occasions to encourage her to tell the truth but she just brushed me off saying that if she did that she wouldn't be able to afford her daily heroin habit.


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## sheiler1963 (Nov 23, 2011)

The arrogance of people who have never been 'nickled and dimed' in America astounds me.


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Katharina said:


> There are more money to get if you went after _real_ criminals, but the system is not interested in those, for some reason.
> They are "decent" people on paper who just manage to steal millions from society each year. The wealthy tax evaders
> have laws and lawyers protecting them.


If someone is truly evading tax laws, then there is a real interest in catching them, because that's fraud too. But if they're just using the law to reduce their tax burden, that just means they're keeping more of their earnings _which belong to them_ by following the rules. That's not called "crime" -- and any moral outrage you might feel over them following the rules to their benefit is little more than a Robin Hood fantasy that promotes class warfare by pitting all the poor against all the rich. It's not logical, and certainly not principled, but it plays effectively to audience emotion.



Katharina said:


> I disagree. What corrupts society most is when people committing the same crime are
> treated differently, depending on how high up they are in society.


This is the case with taking wealth by force, but you have it backwards. The poor are stealing from the rich and being treated as "charitable causes" but if the rich steal from the poor they are treated as criminals. The same crime treated differently, depending on social rank (class war), with the poor "charitable" coming out far better in the "moral bargain."



Katharina said:


> It is a case of double standards that society honors billionaires
> who milk the system while the little people are held to a much stricter moral code.


As I said above, you have it backward. The "little people" are held to no moral code at all, they're the "charitable causes" who are supposedly _owed_ a substantial portion of what others work for.



Katharina said:


> Your emotional comparison between not informing
> on a single mother and protecting the mafia through silence is...illogical at best.
> One silence is a sense of mercy. The other because you fear retribution.


_My_ emotional comparison? You're the one talking about "a sense of mercy" and "fear [of] retribution." I don't think I'm the one adding emotions to the statement that "not informing" is such a powerful source of injustice.



Katharina said:


> The fact is that people happily ignore _real_ crimes.


You repeatedly refer to "real" crimes as if fraud is not one. By what principle do you decide what is a real crime or not? Or do principles just get in the way of "feel good justice" which is far more vigilante than informing authorities of crime.



Katharina said:


> People who worry about nickles and dimes often manage to live quite happily, knowing there are violent or sexual crimes occurring
> next door.


Oh, please. First we're talking millions or billions of dollars (depending on scope), not "nickles and dimes." And as for these mythical people who "live quite happily, knowing there are violent or sexual crimes occuring next door" I have only two words: Prove it. (OK, a few more words: That's utter nonsense, I don't know _anybody_ who -- other than through a "do not inform" street "ethic" -- would knowingly allow such crimes to occur next door.)



Katharina said:


> Gives a pretty clear sign of what has the highest value in society today.


If it were true. Given that it's not, the "pretty clear sign" here is something else.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

this discussion can only continue as long as people don't make personal comments about each other. Also, please don't read into posts things that have not been said.  Our overall impression here on KindleBoards is that the mind reading skill of our members is sadly lacking.    (Disclaimer:  above comments are not addressed at any one individual but are posted after re-reading the entire thread.)

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Tracey I applaud you turning in a person cheating so she could get her daily "heroin fix". I would suggest also turning her in to whatever child protective services you have for the drug abuse, because if she is doing heroin, she will do it in front of her kids at some point, and that opens up all sorts of problems. I spent three years as a counselor for children of abusers, some of those kids had been born already addicted. A couple of them were on more than 15 different daily medications. Eight and ten year olds who had screaming night terrors because of what they had lived through before any help was found for them.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Thanks very much BT, I think you really helped me to put it into perspective.  Her children, at least the ones she has living with her, are the ones who will suffer the most in the long run and I think I will get in touch with Children's Services as well because even her youngest, who is 8, has told me that 'mummy and daddy use drugs with needles'.  Kids shouldn't be exposed to that kind of lifestyle.


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Just an update - I did get in touch with Children's Services and offered to take all three children if necessary [I've fostered before so I have all the necessary credentials]. Instead however the Dept. is working with my neighbor and her husband to help them get off drugs. She's no longer cheating the government, going legit about her circumstances and seems to be really trying to clean up her life. Every time I see her now she tells me of a new thing she's doing to improve her life and the lives of her children. I know giving up heroin is hard, I've met a lot of people who've gone through it but she seems very committed to me so maybe this story will have a happy ending after all. I'll keep praying for their family in the meantime and anyone else who feels so inclined if you could do so as well. _[Please pray for Tracey's neighbors. Names have been removed. ]_

Thanks everyone for their input.
Trace


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Social programs are all started with good intentions, Australia, Europe, USA and so on. They serve well the needy. Unfortunately, there are always cheaters in these programs that do hurt the system. I don't know how to stop but its our moral obligation to report and discourage cheating. The employees can help by doing thorough random check like IRS for tax invaders. The problem is you can't fine the cheaters because they don't have any money to pay. If you put in jail that costs money too...Let us keep trying.


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## lucasfernan (Apr 25, 2012)

I'm disgusted to see this attitude surfacing in Australia, good bye to the go free happy Australia.

Oh, and stealing money from honest tax payers? People can steal all my tax money if they want, if the moral bending citizens don't take it the government will just send it to where it doesn't need to go.

Citizens take more than they should. Spend more than they should, keep people like you and me in a job - This is just another reason as to why unemployment wasn't an issue in Australia during the last financial crisis - we're not afraid to spend money and create jobs.

I hate to see this become the new Australian attitude.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Crenel said:


> If someone is truly evading tax laws, then there is a real interest in catching them, because that's fraud too. But if they're just using the law to reduce their tax burden, that just means they're keeping more of their earnings _which belong to them_ by following the rules. That's not called "crime" -- and any moral outrage you might feel over them following the rules to their benefit is little more than a Robin Hood fantasy that promotes class warfare by pitting all the poor against all the rich. It's not logical, and certainly not principled, but it plays effectively to audience emotion.
> 
> This is the case with taking wealth by force, but you have it backwards. The poor are stealing from the rich and being treated as "charitable causes" but if the rich steal from the poor they are treated as criminals. The same crime treated differently, depending on social rank (class war), with the poor "charitable" coming out far better in the "moral bargain."
> 
> ...


So rich people who take advantage of a skewed system to get even richer are just "following the rules" but poor people who take advantage of the rules in order to SURVIVE are "stealing".

Good lord.

And so no one except a "street" person would ignore child or spousal abuse that goes on next door or close their ears to someone being dying in the street. You mean like this didn't happen: http://www.caller2.com/1999/september/13/today/national/742.html and this one: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/passers_by_let_good_sam_die_5SGkf5XDP5ooudVuEd8fbI and hundreds more such examples.

I don't approve of cheating the government to support a heroin habit, but I approve even less of Halliburton ripping off the American citizens to make an obscene profit supporting an illegal war. So... I suppose we have very different standards.

No, I don't think traceya did the wrong thing, because these are obviously people who needed help. What was more important was the little they were stealing from the government but the lives they were ruining: their own and their kids. And besides, stealing is stealing. If I disapprove of the dishonesty of Halliburton, I should also disapprove of the dishonesty of the little guy. I don't think we should live by the "don't tell" rule of the street because that DOES lead to those cases I pointed out above and to people who are afraid to report when big corporations are cheating and stealing.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Sigh...Jeanne, you're arriving kind of late to the party...I think we've moved on. To quote my earlier post:



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks,
> 
> this discussion can only continue as long as people don't make personal comments about each other. Also, please don't read into posts things that have not been said. Our overall impression here on KindleBoards is that the mind reading skill of our members is sadly lacking.  (Disclaimer: above comments are not addressed at any one individual but are posted after re-reading the entire thread.)
> 
> ...


Betsy


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

It was still near the top of the page, Betsy.

So I take it I shouldn't post on this forum even on recent threads. Gotcha.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)




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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I'll go back to the Writer's Cafe where apparently I'm more welcome.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Oh, for goodness sake...didn't you see my winky face?  Just read through old threads before fanning the flames.  Then, take your chances like everyone else. 

Betsy


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> So rich people who take advantage of a skewed system to get even richer are just "following the rules" but poor people who take advantage of the rules in order to SURVIVE are "stealing".


Fraud is not "taking advantage" of the rules, it is _breaking_ them, and yes, it is called "stealing" -- whether it's done by the rich or the poor.


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Katharina said:


> The greatest evil of all, that actually breeds crime, is the idea that rich people are above the law.
> "They get away with breaking the law, so why shouldn't I?" _That_ is the single most corrupting thought. If you want to inspire
> people to stop cheating, you - society - should stop the massive tax evasion.


The rich are not above the law and they will be penalized if they are caught for tax evasion. The "idea" you refer to is a myth, and myths make very bad justifications for abusing others (e.g., through fraud).


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I think everyone has made their points and I don't forsee any minds being changed.  Plus the topic is going far afield from Tracy's initial concern about a family in danger.

Move along. . .nothing to see here. . .thread locked. . . . .


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