# Agent Jane Dystel's new "service" for authors ... 15% for life for uploading??



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Right off the bat, I'm going to say I like Jane Dystel and other agents in her agency I've interacted with. I think she's an out-of-the-box thinker and doing whatever she can to poise herself to take advantage of the changes in the publishing industry going on now. She's one of the speakers I heard saying she'd represent writers for just certain rights and not insist on taking all of them. She likes and respects indie authors. That's all good. But this stuff I just read? Not so much ...

Jane Dystel: _"We're not acting as a publisher; we're acting as an agent. Our commission is 15% on all those books as it is across the board. We are not publishers. We don't take 50% as some of my colleagues do. I think those agents, in my opinion, who have separate ebook publishing entities, I think it's a conflict of interest for them. What we do is we help them [the authors] put their books up. *They pay for the cover, the copy edit. *We actually put the books up for them and we have accounts with all the retailers and we collect the money and pay them. Publishers actually invest in the property as a publisher would. They [the author] get the copyright [when working with us]."_

Here's the article I'm referring to:
http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2013/president-of-dystel-goderich-literary-management-jane-dystel-agents-unwilling-to-adapt-wont-last/

I went to the agency's website to try and find more but came up basically empty. They don't advertise this, but say in a blog article as of mid last year they had 40 authors and 133 titles signed up.

What I read from this article and comments on another blog (PassiveVoice, linked below) basically is that agency owner and agent Jane Dystel http://www.dystel.com/ is offering this service where she takes an author's book and gets it uploaded to Amazon or wherever. But get this ... she charges 15% of the book's revenues for it. Forever! And ... she doesn't even do or pay for the work of editing, formatting, making a cover, etc. She hires subcontractors and has the author pay the subcontractors for it.

I'll break it down:
1. Author approaches Jane's agency and asks for representation.
2. Agent welcomes author to Dystel's "digital publishing program" (owner claims they're not a digital publisher, that it's a conflict of interest, but then calls her service a digital publishing program.)
3. Agent hires www.52novels.com and other subcontractors to edit, get a cover, format the ebook, etc. and then uploads the ebook to Agency account (not sure if it's the Agency who uploads or not, but that's the simplest part of the equation)
4. AUTHOR pays 52novels.com and other subcontractors for the services, not the Agency
5. Agent collects the revenues (direct deposit of course)
6. Agent keeps 15% and sends balance to the author. Not sure how often.

I get this from this PassiveVoice comment stream: http://www.thepassivevoice.com/01/2013/jane-dystel-agents-unwilling-to-adapt-wont-last/#comments where one of her contractors explains how it works.
_
"The agency also handles all of the project management. With a few exceptions, the D&G authors for whom we've made books do not work with us directly. The authors tell their agents what they want, their agents work with us. The authors have sign off authority. And, if changes to the work need to be made, they come back to us via the agency. When the work's done, we get paid by the author. I presume the agency does the same with other vendors. For some authors, not having to find production vendors for themselves, negotiate pricing, scheduling releases/marketing/etc-time they could be doing something else, like writing-is well worth the 15 percent."_ -- Rob at 52books.com

Now ... is it just me, or does this sound off the ripoff alarms for anyone else? 15% commission for life on an ebook that the author has paid to edit, cover, and format  15% for just upload and project management of an ebook's creation and formatting  Have I read this wrong? Someone tell me I have, because it sounds bad. I have heard great things about this agency, and I have heard Jane speak. I like her a lot. I want to think she wouldn't do this to authors.

I understand the aim and I like it. Some authors want more hand-holding, they want to turn the publishing part of self-publishing over to someone else, and I get that. But to charge 15% for life seems egregious to me. I would agree that a marked-up fee would be fair (like a general contractor does with a subcontractor), but how does she justify 15% for life?

On a related note, it seems to me www.52novels.com is in a great position for the future of ebooks and self-publishing. They must do a good job if Dystel's agency is using them. I predict we'll see more of these fee-for-service, all under one roof businesses, which is great.


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

If they're just uploading to Amazon, B&N and Apple, then I agree. It's ridiculous. However, if they're also getting paperbacks into retailers, that would be much more intriguing. Are they getting the books into any distributors that authors can't access on their own?


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Sophrosyne said:


> If they're just uploading to Amazon, B&N and Apple, then I agree. It's ridiculous. However, if they're also getting paperbacks into retailers, that would be much more intriguing. Are they getting the books into any distributors that authors can't access on their own?


My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that this is not a contract with a publisher at all. They'd do that separately (if they could get one) and charge 15% for that deal separately.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

15% of an *average* self-pubbed book's earnings isn't very much. I've been advising a few off-KB friends and my god it's time-consuming, just to hold the hand and offer a soothing word. 

It's possible she's just offering a mercy-publish to people whose work she loves, but can't sell. It's possible this isn't a huge money-maker. 

As for the full-service package people, they just get paid a flat fee, so I can see it as being no more or no less profitable than a firm that does website design, or an ad agency. I've worked at both, and they're not all glamorous like you see on TV.

Don't get me wrong! I'm still bitter and sore about promises broken by mean ol' agents.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Dalya said:


> 15% of an *average* self-pubbed book's earnings isn't very much. I've been advising a few off-KB friends and my god it's time-consuming, just to hold the hand and offer a soothing word.
> 
> It's possible she's just offering a mercy-publish to people whose work she loves, but can't sell. It's possible this isn't a huge money-maker.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that she'd taking work from well-known authors too. She's mentioned Joe Konrath and John Locke in the article but isn't specific about what she does for them, whether it's the digital publishing or something else. But Joe has a testimonial on the 52novels.com site singing their praises, so I guess he's used them before.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Dalya said:


> 15% of an *average* self-pubbed book's earnings isn't very much. I've been advising a few off-KB friends and my god it's time-consuming, just to hold the hand and offer a soothing word.


lol Maybe you should open a digital publishing program!

$1,000 of ebook revenues a month (not a ton)
x 12 months
x 15%
$1,800 a year
$9,000 over 5 years.

I'll hold someone's hand for that. Sign me up!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> My understanding is that she'd taking work from well-known authors too. She's mentioned Joe Konrath and John Locke in the article but isn't specific about what she does for them, whether it's the digital publishing or something else. But Joe has a testimonial on the 52novels.com site singing their praises, so I guess he's used them before.


I guess it would help if I read the article.  I don't think this is anything new. There was a Laurie whateverhernameis whom I sent a query letter to in summer 2012. She had the classy business sense to then quasi-rejection-email me with an automated offering to engage her paid services.

ETA: tl;dr. However, I do have an opinion. Going into business is really not for everyone. For the people who want to throw one book out there and see if they're lucky/brilliant, I think it's great there are people willing to help. There are people willing to help you lease a brand new vehicle, or buy the extended warranty. There are people for everything.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> But Joe has a testimonial on the 52novels.com site singing their praises, so I guess he's used them before.


Konrath seems to have been using 52novels.com for years. I found one site from nine months ago which incorrectly listed them as his cover artist, and they politely commented: "Thanks for mentioning us in your list. Unfortunately, we're not Joe Konrath's cover designer...Rather, we're Joe's ebook designer." But that doesn't mean that Konrath is using 52novels.com through the Dystel agency. It looks like he's been repped by the agency since 2007, but who konws if he uses this service.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> Konrath seems to have been using 52novels.com for years. I found one site from nine months ago which incorrectly listed them as his cover artist, and they politely commented: "Thanks for mentioning us in your list. Unfortunately, we're not Joe Konrath's cover designer...Rather, we're Joe's ebook designer." But that doesn't mean that Konrath is using 52novels.com through the Dystel agency. It looks like he's been repped by the agency since 2007, but who konws if he uses this service.


I doubt he does. Why would he? She dropped those two names in the interview where it was talking about her new service, but that doesn't mean they use it.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

If nothing else, it is interesting watching a shift in agents' perspectives and goals. (Except for those such as Sarah LaPolla of course.)


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

I don't know if Joe is going to chime up here, but Jane Dystal has been his agent for ages. Joe self-published his work, using Carl Graves and Jeroen ten Berge for covers and Rob at 52novels for formatting. I think Jane has come across the idea that brokering services that Joe uses to ignorant self-publishers is a money making scheme.

If you have trouble self-publishing, give me 15% for life and I'll send your work to Rob, Carl and Jeroen. I'll forward you the invoices. And I'll just send the whole package to D2D and have them publish it to all platforms. For an extra fee I can even set up your account with iTunes, Kobo and Amazon.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> I doubt he does. Why would he? She dropped those two names in the interview where it was talking about her new service, but that doesn't mean they use it.


Dunno for a fact that he uses it, but he did a post a while back (IIRC) where he talked about this as the e-stributor model and mentioned Dystel moving to this method. I believe he was in favor of it at the time because it let the agent handle basically everything except approval of art, cover, etc, and he thought his time was worth the 15% trade-off. I believe he, Barry Eisler and Dean Wesley Smith had a conversation about it in the post (which I am too lazy to go find).


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

RobertJCrane said:


> Dunno for a fact that he uses it, but he did a post a while back (IIRC) where he talked about this as the e-stributor model and mentioned Dystel moving to this method. I believe he was in favor of it at the time because it let the agent handle basically everything except approval of art, cover, etc, and he thought his time was worth the 15% trade-off. I believe he, Barry Eisler and Dean Wesley Smith had a conversation about it in the post (which I am too lazy to go find).


If they feel it's worth it, they must use it, right? Or they say it's worth it for others but not for them, maybe. I'm so confused.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

It would be worth it if the e-stributor takes the word/epub file and fronts all the costs and does all the work in bringing the novel to the customers. That means, e-stributor pays for editing, formatting, cover art, etcetera. If I have to pay for that myself, finding editors, formatters, cover artists, etcetera could be done for a flat fee, not a 15% in perpuity.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> It would be worth it if the e-stributor takes the word/epub file and fronts all the costs and does all the work in bringing the novel to the customers. That means, e-stributor pays for editing, formatting, cover art, etcetera. If I have to pay for that myself, finding editors, formatters, cover artists, etcetera could be done for a flat fee, not a 15% in perpuity.


My thoughts exactly, although I might not agree that 15% is fair. Still seems a bit high for fronting less than $2,000.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> My thoughts exactly, although I might not agree that 15% is fair. Still seems a bit high for fronting less than $2,000.


Yeah, but you can tell people you have a literary agent. You can mention it at parties.

"My _literary agent _has suggested I write more shapeshifter lactation porn. She feels the market's about to swing that way."


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Dalya said:


> Yeah, but you can tell people you have a literary agent. You can mention it at parties.
> 
> "My _literary agent _has suggested I write more shapeshifter lactation porn. She feels the market's about to swing that way."


Dammit. I hadn't considered that. You're right. It's worth the 15%.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

Dalya said:


> Yeah, but you can tell people you have a literary agent. You can mention it at parties.
> 
> "My _literary agent _has suggested I write more shapeshifter lactation porn. She feels the market's about to swing that way."


She's actually not even just any literary agent, if you're looking for cachet. I'm pretty sure Dystel repped Barack Obama on Dreams From My Father and The Audacity of Hope. Regardless of your political persuasion, I believe that carries some weight.

ETA: I still wouldn't sign that agency agreement, based on what I've read here. I mean, I have to pay for everything? Geez. I don't spend THAT much time dealing with my formatter, cover artist and editor now, and I make back what I pay them within hours of a book launch now.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

RobertJCrane said:


> She's actually not even just any literary agent, if you're looking for cachet. I'm pretty sure Dystel repped Barack Obama on Dreams From My Father and The Audacity of Hope. Regardless of your political persuasion, I believe that carries some weight.


You're absolutely right. She's one of the best if not THE best well-known and well-respected agents in the biz, and has been for a very long time.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

As I see it, when authors want to self-publish, they are not looking for an agent but for people who offer services that would help him bring the work out (except if they have an agent already). So, I believe, that this kind of services where agents acts as a intermediary between authors and contractors and retailers is focused on authors searching for traditional deals. Those might in their desire to snag an agent be willing to sign off much more than those 15% on self-published books, especially because of the carrot: “ let’s publish the book digitally, see how it does and then if we have a story to tell in terms of sales in terms of the electronic self-published version, we go back out.”


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## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

Dalya said:


> ...more shapeshifter lactation porn.


This is EXACTLY what the market needs.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2013)

Each to their own, I guess, and if Ms Dystel has managed to set up a new source of revenue for her agency in these changing times for the industry I can respect that. On the other hand, hand-holding or not, I've got to wonder how someone gets to write a novel of 80,000+ words and then finds the comparably minor part of editing, illustrating and formating to be so ponderous that he or she writes off 15% of the royalties for life.   

I mean, I'm shamefully lazy and as easily distracted as a cat presented with a laserpointer, but I certainly wouldn't part with 15% of my revenue because I found writing half a dozen emails and consulting Google to bothersome.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

ellecasey said:


> ...She's mentioned Joe Konrath and John Locke in the article but isn't specific about what she does for them...


I need to call B.S. (Barbra Streisand) on Dystel's John Locke claim.

Every book Locke has published has been run by John through Telemachus Press, LLC, exclusively. It appears in ALL his books.

And as you can see here (http://www.telemachuspress.com/Who.aspx), Jane Dystel is not a member of the Telemachus team. They don't even employ anyone named Jane.

Now... that said... John Locke does employ Jane Dystel as his AGENT. But all his publishing services are via Telemachus, not Jane.

So, she's doing a bait-and-switch... using the name value of one of her AGENTING clients to try and get people to believe he goes to her for digital publishing solutions as well.

But he doesn't. He uses Telemachus Press exclusively for those services.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I need to call B.S. (Barbra Streisand) on Dystel's John Locke claim.
> 
> Every book Locke has published has been run by John through Telemachus Press, LLC, exclusively. It appears in ALL his books.
> 
> ...


Here's the piece of the article that refers to this:

JG [article author]: How did you work your way into the digital space?

JD [agent]: We've been representing people like Joe Konrath [outspoken self-publishing advocate] who moved into digital publishing quickly. John Locke [self-publishing success] was another one of our very early digitally published clients. And now we have a lot of the independent indie writers. We work with each of them in very different ways. Some of the books by all of our clients we don't collect any commissions on. With Joe Konrath and John Locke we represent some parts of their publishing collection and we don't represent other parts.

So, she doesn't say exactly that they are signed up for her digital service program, but it's easy to infer that from the way this answer is structured. But I don't know if she wrote the answers out or if this person was paraphrasing her verbal answers. Usually in these kind of interviews the author sends the questions and the interviewee answers them in writing, but there's no way to know what was the case here.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

This line on Dystel made me giggle:



> While it's the first year for so many major self-published hits for Dystel, she's no stranger to having an eye for talent. She was President Barack Obama's first literary agent in the early 1990s.


Yes... because we all remember Barack Obama as an early 1990s author of such runaway bestsellers as... as...

Oh, wait... there were none.

Sure, his political bios sold well enough. But Dreams from My Father was published in 2007 and Audacity of Hope in 2008, Change We Can Believe In in 2008 as well, while Of Thee I Sing came out in 2010.

So, all those books he's known for didn't get published until at least 15 years LATER. So, a fat lot of good Jane Dystel did for aspiring author Obama...

The list of Obama books published in the early 1990s?

Well, there was...

And of course, no one can forget, uh...

Oh, that's right... there weren't any. Thanks, Jane, right Barack? LOL

By the time he got published properly, he was a sitting Democratic US Senator and in line to become his party's nominee for president. By then, even Charlie Brown could have been his literary agent and sold his dang books.  (And with world-acclaimed novelist Snoopy as his copy-editor, no less!)


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

ellecasey said:


> ...John Locke [self-publishing success] was *another one of our* very early digitally published clients....
> 
> So, she doesn't say exactly that they are signed up for her digital service program, but it's easy to infer that from the way this answer is structured. But I don't know if she wrote the answers out or if this person was paraphrasing her verbal answers. Usually in these kind of interviews the author sends the questions and the interviewee answers them in writing, but there's no way to know what was the case here.


Fair enough, Elle, but you have to agree that the phrasing is very misleading.

That's the moral equivalent of me saying that just because I did an interview with Amanda Hocking a few months before she went HUGE, that I discovered her.

Nope, I had nothing to do with her success. I interviewed her because I'd read one of her novels, liked it, and was thrilled to see someone from my home county in Minnesota (she grew up in Austin, I grew up in Rose Creek, but we both lived in Mower County, MN) had broken through a bit.

The success she went on to have was 100 percent hers.

I just lucked out, timing-wise, that I met her here on KB before her life got too busy, and she agreed to an outrageously long interview.  An interview I'm proud of for its thoroughness, but it was purely a "home-county gal" motivated interview, not any prescience on my part.

But I don't go around claiming anything about her or trying to associate myself with her success. And Jane seems to do a lot of that... (see my previous post on her claim to association with Barack Obama's fame and success in the same article.)


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

You discovered Amanda Hocking??!!! 

lol

j/k


But feel free to interview me.  Maybe some of that success and magic will rub off.  lol


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

ellecasey said:


> You discovered Amanda Hocking??!!!
> 
> lol
> 
> ...


Elle, judging by your prolific cover gallery in your sig, you're already awesome without anyone's help. Least of all mine... LOL


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Sure, his political bios sold well enough. But Dreams from My Father was published in 2007 and Audacity of Hope in 2008, Change We Can Believe In in 2008 as well, while Of Thee I Sing came out in 2010.
> 
> By the time he got published properly, he was a sitting Democratic US Senator and in line to become his party's nominee for president.


Just FYI, Dreams From My Father was first published in 1995, Audacity of Hope in 2006. It was a while until he sold well, though, IIRC.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

A naive indie writer and his/her money are soon parted.

The "it's not a scam" folks haven't showed up yet, but it's just parsing words, really. The whole scheme (including the name dropping) is set up to take money from people for doing the easiest part of the job. Honestly, after the first upload, it's just not that tiring to do the others. 

Plus you have to do all the work about covers and editing anyway, which are services easily found by a google search, and then pay for it out of pocket anyway. Geez.

I need to find that Konrath post, where DWS was chiming in on this as being a good idea, as it goes against everything he posts on his blog about the author learning to do the business stuff themselves, or hire it out for a flat fee.


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## phil1861 (Dec 22, 2011)

I don't know, if I'd just fallen off the turnip truck in Indieville and was looking at all of the flashy signs on Main Street and 1st Avenue and saw that someone would hand pick my editor (don't know anyone who edits or who had an editor) pick my cover designer and all I'd have to do is nod my head vigorously and shell out some bucks and sit back and watch the money roll in, at 15% of my sales I might have been tempted. Isn't that what other famous-shmamous authors already do? Then I could go back to my home, soak in my hot tub and drink my martini because I'm being repped by so-in-so too, aren't you? 

Fortunately I did know some authors and found this board and get to keep 100% of my measly royalty checks, sans hot tub and martini.  

Now, if they did all of my PR and marketing that might actually turn my head if they had a track record of showing increased visibility and sales. But, I can contract with these very vendors independently already. If the best of the best were solely brokered via her agency that might be another draw, but there are others just as good in the sea of editors and cover designers. 15% for uploading files is steep; that's the easy part. That's the reward for all of the work you've already put into everything anyway. Buyer beware.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

An email showed up this morning. The writer says a mutual acquaintance recommended my name to her for advice. In short, "I need help self-publishing and she said you can help. My aim is to be the next EL James. Can you help me get published?"

1) Maybe she thinks I'm an agent?

2) I'm not sure how to reply to a stranger in a polite, helpful way.

3) So, do you think it would be mean of me to just refer her to this agent for help? Because it would save me a lot of back-and-forth emails  detailing stuff like covers, formats, etc. etc.

I'm not saying this person might not be the next EL James but I'm not sure I want to handhold a stranger all the way to publication.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

phil1861 said:


> Isn't that what other famous-shmamous authors already do?


Do you mean with traditionally published deals and agents? In that case, I'd say no, it's not what's already done by famous authors.

If an agent takes your manuscript and shops it around and finds a paper publishing deal or movie deal that pays you some sort of advance and royalties or fee, then they've earned their commission in my opinion. But if they've essentially done nothing but find subcontractors to format your book and then uploaded it, they've earned a fixed fee for providing that project management service, not the right to take revenues for life. That's way out of proportion to the work done, especially considering they make YOU pay for the subcontracted work TOO and there's zero advance, zero risk on their part!



Gennita Low said:


> An email showed up this morning. The writer says a mutual acquaintance recommended my name to her for advice. In short, "I need help self-publishing and she said you can help. My aim is to be the next EL James. Can you help me get published?"
> 
> 1) Maybe she thinks I'm an agent?
> 
> ...


Give her a link to KB.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

In a gold rush, the shovel sellers make money.

Like some vanity presses, there will be agents, publicists etc that will take advantage of someone's dream. There will be more.

However, does she also handle the promotion of these ebooks? Surely there must be more to this that simply uploading a title to Amazon _et al_.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

RobertJCrane said:


> Just FYI, Dreams From My Father was first published in 1995, Audacity of Hope in 2006. It was a while until he sold well, though, IIRC.


Yeah. If you just think about it for a sec, you'd realize there's no way _DFMF _would have been published by a sitting senator a year before a presidential run.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> Now ... is it just me, or does this sound off the ripoff alarms for anyone else? 15% commission for life on an ebook that the author has paid to edit, cover, and format  15% for just upload and project management of an ebook's creation and formatting  Have I read this wrong? Someone tell me I have, because it sounds bad. I have heard great things about this agency, and I have heard Jane speak. I like her a lot. I want to think she wouldn't do this to authors.
> 
> I understand the aim and I like it. Some authors want more hand-holding, they want to turn the publishing part of self-publishing over to someone else, and I get that. But to charge 15% for life seems egregious to me. I would agree that a marked-up fee would be fair (like a general contractor does with a subcontractor), but how does she justify 15% for life?


I think it would be worth it if she covered the cost of cover design, editing, formatting, uploading, and permanent trouble-shooting for all editions the author was interested in bringing out, as well as providing an individualized yearly marketing plan that the author would be largely responsible for executing. If she did that, she'd be doing some of what is valuable about a publisher: fronting the costs of the book's production and executing that production with true expertise. The author would not only save a lot of time, but he/she would know really good people were handling these aspects of the book's production, rather than having to hire contractors who might or might not do a good job (especially important for editing, since many authors are not able to tell on their own whether an editor has done a good job).

In order to do the above, Dystel would have to be very careful about which books she took on. There'd be genuine risk b/c the agency would be investing quite a bit in each book. Undoubtedly they'd lose money on some books. Fifteen percent in exchange for that risk and those services doesn't seem out of line to me.

At least, that's my initial reaction.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I think it would be worth it if she covered the cost of cover design, editing, formatting, uploading, and permanent trouble-shooting for all editions the author was interested in bringing out, as well as providing an individualized yearly marketing plan that the author would be largely responsible for executing. If she did that, she'd be doing some of what is valuable about a publisher: fronting the costs of the book's production and executing that production with true expertise. The author would not only save a lot of time, but he/she would know really good people were handling these aspects of the book's production, rather than having to hire contractors who might or might not do a good job (especially important for editing, since many authors are not able to tell on their own whether an editor has done a good job).
> 
> In order to do the above, Dystel would have to be very careful about which books she took on. There'd be genuine risk b/c the agency would be investing quite a bit in each book. Undoubtedly they'd lose money on some books. Fifteen percent in exchange for that risk and those services doesn't seem out of line to me.
> 
> At least, that's my initial reaction.


What you're describing is an independent press, and I agree with you (and have toyed around with the idea of starting one - when I've had too much to drink). But she directly says that type of thing is a conflict of interest and is definitely not what she's doing.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> What you're describing is an independent press, and I agree with you (and have toyed around with the idea of starting one - when I've had too much to drink). But she directly says that type of thing is a conflict of interest and is definitely not what she's doing.


LOL ... I guess it is! And here I thought I'd come up with something.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> LOL ... I guess it is! And here I thought I'd come up with something.


Well you have! Since I don't know of any that do it for only 15%. lol


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Do you actually know that she's claiming an income stream "for life"? Because she very well might not be. I know my agent has "self-publishing services" (where she pays for a lot more than JD does), and she only claims two years as the distributor (but you still have the right, as the author, to pull the books entirely, if that's what you want.) Don't assume something is "for life" until you read the contract.

This might be a good deal for some if the term claimed is short enough. So if she's claiming 6 months, you, as an author, work with her for six months, you get the cover and ebook file, and then after 6 months, you put it up yourself. For authors that are busy enough, and/or aren't good enough.

My agent also allows authors to use her service to reach places they can't reach on their own--so, for instance, I do all the work on my books, pay for everything, and then give her the file and she puts it up on Overdrive and a handful of other places that I can't get to on my own. She gets 15% on those venues alone, I get 100% of what I put up myself on the other venues, and I can pull the files with 30 days notice.

For the conflict of interest thing: I think it is a conflict of interest for an agent to claim publishing rights. If an agent says to you, "No, you have to let me keep this file on Amazon/you have to keep this extremely shitty cover I came up with/blah blah blah" I think the agent is acting as a publisher--they're putting themselves in the driver's seat on your books, and that's a conflict of interest, one that I think is legally problematic at best. If they are doing things at your behest, and you're the one that's calling the shots--that's something that is well within an agent's bailiwick.

In my mind, the test is this: If you told the agent, "No, pull the book, I don't want to sell it anymore," does she have to do it? If the answer is "no," the agent is acting on her own behalf, and there is a conflict of interest. If the answer is "yes," the agent is acting on your behalf, and the agent is an agent.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> Well you have! Since I don't know of any that do it for only 15%. lol


Clearly a good business opportunity ... for someone not hoping to stay in business very long!


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> Do you actually know that she's claiming an income stream "for life"? Because she very well might not be. I know my agent has "self-publishing services" (where she pays for a lot more than JD does), and she only claims two years as the distributor (but you still have the right, as the author, to pull the books entirely, if that's what you want.) Don't assume something is "for life" until you read the contract.
> 
> This might be a good deal for some if the term claimed is short enough. So if she's claiming 6 months, you, as an author, work with her for six months, you get the cover and ebook file, and then after 6 months, you put it up yourself. For authors that are busy enough, and/or aren't good enough.
> 
> ...


No, I do not know how long the commission lasts; I assumed it was the same as her other relationships since she did not specify otherwise. All her article says is: "Our commission is 15% on all those [digitally published] books as it is across the board."

Saying they take 15% _across the board_ I assume means: "like they do with their other books" and therefore leads me to believe it's the same as traditionally published authors. She doesn't mention that the commission is paid for only a limited time, and that would be a very positive thing to mention, so if that's the case, I'm surprised she didn't mention it. I'd be willing to bet it's _not_ temporary, but it's just a bet, not facts!

The conflict of interest comment was Ms. Dystel's, not mine.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> I need to find that Konrath post, where DWS was chiming in on this as being a good idea, as it goes against everything he posts on his blog about the author learning to do the business stuff themselves, or hire it out for a flat fee.


Sorry, to clarify, Konrath was selling the virtues of it (as I recall) and DWS was most strenuously against it (100% sure on that).


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I agree; that is totally ridiculous.  15% for uploading?  That's the easy part!

I'd be willing to pay 15% for copy editing, for a good cover, formatting, for a bit of smart promotion if a really smart promotion venue ever opens up for indie authors.  I would not be willing to pay 15% to click a freaking button.


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Sounds like what Jane's selling is visibility. You can put your book on her site, and (presumably) publishers will see it, or at least be more likely to see it than otherwise.

But if your book gets on the bestseller lists, you'll have visibility, anyway...

And then the agents and publishers will be coming to you.


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## sarracannon (Apr 19, 2011)

I agree with Courtney in that this could be beneficial to some people, especially if the length of the agreement is reasonable. I have spent a lot of time looking at cover designers for various projects I have coming up and making the final decision on who is "right" for my project is time consuming. I'm lucky that my husband formats my novels, but if he didn't, I would be so lost, lol. I know there are walkthroughs, but I'm terrible with things like that. An agent as broker for services is the future, in my opinion.

The perfect agent for this job would be someone who keeps up with the talent and options available, has a wide network of artists and editors with different special skill sets, and has access to digital venues (like Overdrive) the average self-published author does not. A lot of us have learned how to do these things for ourselves, but haven't we also made some mistakes along the way? I know my first cover was awful! I've also made some formatting errors in the past that had to be corrected. It's been a learning process, sometimes painful. If an agent could take all that away and make it a smooth experience so that all you had to do was keep writing, it might be worth 15% for a limited time.

It would be unreasonable for an agent to front all the costs of production for many self-published authors. 15% of even a lifetime of terrible sales still might not cover edits and a great cover. I think the misunderstanding here is saying that all she's doing is uploading. What she's really doing is helping these authors find quality formatters, editors, and cover artists so they don't have to research and find their own. 

Of course, you still have to make sure the agent is good at finding the right people for your project. And that they don't 'force' you to use their people if you don't like their work. I don't personally think this is something for me right now, but I could see where it would appeal to others.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

sarracannon said:


> I agree with Courtney in that this could be beneficial to some people, especially if the length of the agreement is reasonable. I have spent a lot of time looking at cover designers for various projects I have coming up and making the final decision on who is "right" for my project is time consuming. I'm lucky that my husband formats my novels, but if he didn't, I would be so lost, lol. I know there are walkthroughs, but I'm terrible with things like that. An agent as broker for services is the future, in my opinion.
> 
> The perfect agent for this job would be someone who keeps up with the talent and options available, has a wide network of artists and editors with different special skill sets, and has access to digital venues (like Overdrive) the average self-published author does not. A lot of us have learned how to do these things for ourselves, but haven't we also made some mistakes along the way? I know my first cover was awful! I've also made some formatting errors in the past that had to be corrected. It's been a learning process, sometimes painful. If an agent could take all that away and make it a smooth experience so that all you had to do was keep writing, it might be worth 15% for a limited time.
> 
> ...


I don't think she takes just any indie. Here are her words: _"More recently these indie authors, who were already tried and true because they have these great sales, would come to us. As long as they were good writers and they could tell a good story and I felt they had a writing future, I really wanted to try to help them." _

So she's not taking anyone unless she knows they can get "great sales" according to her observations. This is one of those no-risk propositions for her as I see it.

And I think many people here will say (not all, but many) that while it may have taken a few shots to find a good cover artist or editor or whatever, you eventually find a team of people you can count on to work with time and time again. That's what Ms. Dystel has done. And you can make friends with anyone here and they'll tell you who they use as their team members, cutting your learning curve very short.

If she does it for a limited time at 15%, it's probably fair for a lot of people to be released from the project management work. But that's not what her interview suggests. It's an important details she left out, if it does exist.

And if the contract does go for perpetuity, can you say that 15% PLUS ALL COSTS is worth it? I couldn't.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> Jane Dystel: _"We're not acting as a publisher; we're acting as an agent. Our commission is 15% on all those books as it is across the board... What we do is we help them [the authors] put their books up. *They pay for the cover, the copy edit. *We actually put the books up for them and we have accounts with all the retailers and we collect the money and pay them.
> _


_

How is this any different from what Smashwords does? Plenty of us use Smashwords.

How many of us moan about how difficult it is to find good editors these days? Maybe for a newbie it is worth paying out 15% of future costs for referrals to vetted editors and cover artists and formatters.

/devil's advocate_


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## sarracannon (Apr 19, 2011)

Definitely wouldn't be worth it on substantial sales for the lifetime of the book. I totally agree with you there.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> How is this any different from what Smashwords does? Plenty of us use Smashwords.
> 
> How many of us moan about how difficult it is to find good editors these days? Maybe for a newbie it is worth paying out 15% of future costs for referrals to vetted editors and cover artists and formatters.
> 
> /devil's advocate


Smashwords has a HUGE client base, buyers of books who go to their site to shop. Dystel has nothing like that. That agency is not a retailer like Smashwords is. That's one way it's different. There are others.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> No, I do not know how long the commission lasts; I assumed it was the same as her other relationships since she did not specify otherwise.


But this varies from agent to agent. I know of agents who don't claim lifetime rights to an income stream.

I don't know whether Jane Dystel does. Saying she takes things "across the board" doesn't mean "across all time." I take no stand on how long she does or doesn't do it--I would just say that I wouldn't necessarily assume that she's doing it "for life" because a handful of the agents that I have seen say "we are doing this for authors" are not doing that.

I'm just saying, don't assume.


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## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

If in fact it was for life, then no, it's not worth it. It wasn't clear from the article whether she meant for life or not though. 

But you know what I would be willing to pay 15% for!? There was no mention of either developmental editing (which most agents do offer in some capacity to their clients), or marketing. If she was going to advise me in revisions, get my book into venues I couldn't reach on my own, and then pimp it for me too (after all, an agent is supposed to be a salesperson, and that way we'd both make more money), then I'd pay 15%. Not for life -- but I imagine she'd want a contract in place, otherwise the author could just have her do all the work and then pull out once she's done it. A contract with a renewal/expiration date seems reasonable. I'd sign up for that, but that doesn't seem to be what most agents are trying to offer. I don't need help clicking buttons, and if that's all she's offering, then no deal.


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

I could understand if some people would like having someone who handles all the negotiations and contractual details with editors, cover-artists, etc. (Honestly I would hire an assistant to deal with that if I could afford one), but I would never agree to having a second party being the ones who get MY money first and then pay me while they keep 15%. I would prefer an hourly rate or something similar (word-count with editors or translators). I want an invoice that states clearly "we did this amount of work and it took us X hours and the total is the following sum". Then I can check the invoice and pay or not pay if I think there's something wrong with the bill. 

And if the contract ends for whatever reasons they no longer get paid. 

Anything involving percentages, especially percentages for life makes me just shake my head because that's bad business-practice. I used to work in sales for big electronics companies and the idea that one of the sales managers or the customers would have accepted a contract that runs for 60 years or more is completely unrealistic. Mostly contracts were renegotiated every couple of years or even annually, so I don't see why it should be different in the publishing industry. The world is constantly changing, conditions change, new opportunities come up and these are things that need to be taken into account. A contract that might have been favourable five years ago might no longer apply five years later and then it needs to be renegotiated or ended. And end of contract means end of services supplied and also means end of payments.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

A couple weeks ago I was asked to speak at a writers group, and it was clear nobody in the room knew anything about self-publishing, most didn't want to learn, but they wanted their books "out there." They wouldn't know a good cover if it hit them in the nose, and they would need a lot of hand holding, which is time consuming.

I felt those people probably were better off with a service. You can get a few books done this way, see the covers the agents broker for you, and what sort of manuscript you have to send in to a formatter to get the right one back.

Then, if they aren't happy with the service or want to start doing their own covers or formatting, they can move on with future books having been hand-held on the first few. It's not the best way, but it is one way, and definitely not the worst way. If the book DOES take off, you have someone right there to help with foreign rights and options.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

In the past five years, I've had many people approach/email/message me about 'how to publish a book'. With my time becoming more and more limited, I'd be very tempted to just send them along this way and let the agent educate them. 

Except I don't think my conscience could handle that. I know I wouldn't want to give away 15% for someone else to do what I can get done myself for an affordable fee, with research and footwork.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Dalya said:


> 15% of an *average* self-pubbed book's earnings isn't very much. I've been advising a few off-KB friends and my god it's time-consuming, just to hold the hand and offer a soothing word.
> 
> It's possible she's just offering a mercy-publish to people whose work she loves, but can't sell. It's possible this isn't a huge money-maker.
> 
> ...


If they have her as an agent they are WELL past the "average" writer status and she is hardly "mercy-publishing". Of course, if the author can't bother to do hire their own subcontractors, who knows if they'll bother to do anything else for their books, such as marketing and promotion. But suggesting this is something the agency is doing from the kindness of their hearts is ... stretching credibility.


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## Lia Sebastian (Nov 24, 2012)

> Yeah, but you can tell people you have a literary agent. You can mention it at parties.
> 
> "My literary agent has suggested I write more shapeshifter lactation porn. She feels the market's about to swing that way."


I'd pay 18% for that. Minimum.


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

> Jane has come across the idea that brokering services that Joe uses to ignorant self-publishers is a money making scheme.


Precisely. Dystel is simply climbing onto the rip-off-naive-authors bandwagon that we're seeing more and more publishers and agents launch as self-publishing peels off more and more authors from traditional publishing. It's a way to augment the bottom line with little of their own resources invested. When I read "15%" I always assume it means in perpetuity because that is the standard model in the publishing industry. It's too bad budding writers fall for these schemes. A few weeks scouring KB would arm them with the requisite knowledge to avoid rip-off traps like this.

I recently talked a good friend, a veteran NYT bestseller bent on fleeing agents and the Big-6 by self-publishing, from falling for a similar scheme. This very successful author always relied on her agents and publishers to handle the technical and promotional stuff. She's very hands-off in when it comes to the technical side. I steered her to my book designer who does soup-to-nuts formatting, cover design and uploading for a modest flat fee. My friend launched her latest book this way and was so pleased with the results, sent me a bottle of expensive French champagne (me & the wife guzzled it already).

So, I wouldn't be wasting time speculating about Ms. Dystel's motives or her terms. It's polite predation, pure and simple.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

You know, I'm torn.  

Yes, there is a rub in giving away 15% of your profits ... but are we talking a .99-4.99 bracket, or are we talking about a 9.99 price?  And what does that 15% get you by way of marketing, publicity?  

There isn't enough for me to make a decision on whether I think it's a racket or a valid option with only the information provided.


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## Madeline (Jun 5, 2010)

Yes, its a rip-off, but there are suckers born every day.  She's smart enough to know that. 

Desperate times call for desperate measures for agents.  She is learning that if she doesn't do something in this bold new publishing world, she will find herself obsolete and out of a job.  Call me a sadist, but watching her struggle for a place in the "indie" world is like the most incredible feeling ever.  It's quite empowering.  For the longest time, agents were the gatekeepers, the designators of "gems" versus "filth"...the holders of the slush piles with millions of writers begging them to just look once at a manuscript.  Not anymore.  Now she is begging us for a slice of the pie.    With that said, she is actually one of the few agents I've seen embrace self-publishing and at least try to get her hands in it.  Sure, I don't spent alot of time looking at agents anymore, but at least the woman is TRYING to figure out how to work with Indies.  That's more than I can say for most of them that I have run across. 

The authors here on the KB are generally quite computer literate and there is enough of a friendship base that we can ask one another for help.  Don't forget that there are still literally MILLIONS of people out there that don't even know how to turn a computer on, yet they have hand written books they want to sell.  Think of all the 80 year old retired folk who have out of print books, yet wouldn't know the first thing about how to get it scanned/set up/uploaded.  There ARE people for whom this would be beneficial, people who simply do not know how or do not want to do any of the work.  They want to hand their book to someone and be done with it.  

But there are also complete idiots who don't know what they are doing that she will be taking advantage of.  Frankly, the fact that she is willing to take advantage of these sorts of people really shakes the foundation of "trust" that I had in an agent/client relationship.  She may be one of the best agents in the biz, but if she is willing to rip off unsuspecting new indie writers like this...how else is she ripping off the rest of her client base?  Because have no fear, if she is willing to do it in the small things, she is willing to do it in the big things as well.  In my eyes, this ruins her professional image.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

I would not pay 15% for life for one time work. If you aren't actively investing in my project, you have to earn your keep to retain 15%. Stop earning your keep, stop earning 15%. But I would allow standard points for standard agenting jobs (like licensing rights). Since she's not doing that, then nope. It's likely that people would retain those service hoping that if they find success, she'll rep them. Which what fool wouldn't?

It's a good deal for her. I don't know that I would go so far as to call it a scam. You could do it as you learn and once you know what you're doing, not do it again. It's not like she's taking 15% of everything you ever do. She gets a ready made client base that she can pull from whenever they are successful and the author is just about guaranteed an experienced agent (with no hassle of looking for one) if they need one. How many self-published authors found they needed someone to negotiate rights for them?

I don't particular think it's a great deal, but I don't particular think it's an awful deal either. Might be worth doing for one or two books to have that foot in the door. I dunno. I haven't actually read the link so I'm saying all of this based on what was said in the thread. I'm familiar with Jane Dystel though. I don't think she's setting out to scam anyone; I think she's trying to remain relevant in an industry that is shrinking. Too many people and not enough jobs means you have to expand somehow. She's just trying to navigate through it like the rest of us.

I'm sure it'll go through several different changes as needs change, and a more stable "standard" for people to cite rises. Until then, that standard has to be figured out and we don't figure things out by not trying new things and seeing how it works out, how it can be improved upon, and how it sucks. Many people would rather have a service than do it themselves. All business start off looking for what will make *them* the most money first, and they change as they need to. You can't stay in business if you aren't making money. It's up to the authors to say what they are willing to pay for and what they aren't. If she doesn't make enough money, she'll alter things, just like any other business.

People still use vanity publishers. It's honestly not much of a scam anymore. Well, it is, but only in the sense that if you aren't smart enough to research something before you sign your rights away, you may find yourself making a choice you wouldn't have made if you knew any better. It's too easy to research this kind of thing, and the internet is now too old to use _I didn't know_ as an excuse. Google any vanity publisher's name and a gazillion links come up. There comes a time where a person's lack of technological savvy is really not an excuse because the internet doesn't require any tech skills, or even the ability to spell words correctly - you only need to get close enough that search boxes can figure it out. But at the end of the day, there are still people that use them, understanding exactly what they're getting from it. And they're happy. How, I don't know, but that's not for me to worry about.

I dunno. I guess I'm just saying it's probably too soon to make judgments on it.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> If they have her as an agent they are WELL past the "average" writer status and she is hardly "mercy-publishing". Of course, if the author can't bother to do hire their own subcontractors, who knows if they'll bother to do anything else for their books, such as marketing and promotion. But suggesting this is something the agency is doing from the kindness of their hearts is ... stretching credibility.


Heehee. I think we should popularize this "mercy-publish" term. It is what one of us might do for a friend, only we wouldn't take a percent for all the agonizing hand-holding.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Project management is a service offered in many industries. The PM typically works on a fixed fee, reimbursable, term limited contract. People hire a PM because he has expertise in an area they do not. For example, companies often hire managing contractors (PMs) when they want to construct a new office building. The principals don't know anything about construction, so they hire a PM who specializes in commercial construction management. Some very large companies establish internal project management 

Invoices flow to the principal under the terms of the PM contract. The PM gets a fixed fee for managing the contract. When the contract ends, he goes away. This is a well established model, and works well all through the economy. 

Project managers do not take an ownership interest in the project, and they do not receive payment after their fixed fee contract expires. 

I expect competitive entrepreneurs will establish this same system for authors. They will drive out all the folks who can't compete.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I think it would be worth it if she covered the cost of cover design, editing, formatting, uploading, and permanent trouble-shooting for all editions the author was interested in bringing out, as well as providing an individualized yearly marketing plan that the author would be largely responsible for executing. If she did that, she'd be doing some of what is valuable about a publisher: fronting the costs of the book's production and executing that production with true expertise. The author would not only save a lot of time, but he/she would know really good people were handling these aspects of the book's production, rather than having to hire contractors who might or might not do a good job (especially important for editing, since many authors are not able to tell on their own whether an editor has done a good job).
> 
> In order to do the above, Dystel would have to be very careful about which books she took on. There'd be genuine risk b/c the agency would be investing quite a bit in each book. Undoubtedly they'd lose money on some books. Fifteen percent in exchange for that risk and those services doesn't seem out of line to me.
> 
> At least, that's my initial reaction.


What you just described is what several agencies are already doing. BookEnds, for example, will arrange for editing, formatting, cover art (on the agency's dime) and will upload the book in exchange for 15% fee. Same with Nelson Literary Agency (although they're only open for the self-pub assistance with existing clients, and the 15% commission is only for the first two years).

I know some authors who do their own self-pub in general, but might use their agency's services for a co-authored book, simply because having someone else receive royalties and split the payments for them is worth the 15%.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

RobertJCrane said:


> Just FYI, Dreams From My Father was first published in 1995, Audacity of Hope in 2006. It was a while until he sold well, though, IIRC.


Good to know, and thanks for the clarification. I was going off the year on the current edition available on Amazon.

I'm not sure 1995 would connect author Obama to Jane Dystal, though. Considering early/mid 1990s trad-pub timelines from manuscript to publication, though, that might be her one "win" for him.

Of course, one of her mistakes that caused him no end of grief in his first term is that it was her agency that listed him as a native Kenyan or something... which gave rise to the whole birther thing. So, still not much of a bragging point for her...


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Quiss said:


> In a gold rush, the shovel sellers make money.


Actually, it's been the guy who sold Todd Hoffman a new-fangled "super-trommel" who made a ton of money this season... and he delivered it late AND with too small an engine. Fully one-half of their season was gone before they were washing paydirt at Quartz Creek! #goldrush


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

Did anyone find the post on Joe's blog where he recommends giving away a percentage? Everything I've read from him seems to be dead set against doing percentage deals and pro-flat fee deals.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

Sophrosyne said:


> Did anyone find the post on Joe's blog where he recommends giving away a percentage? Everything I've read from him seems to be dead set against doing percentage deals and pro-flat fee deals.


http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2011/04/ebooks-and-self-publishing-part-2_03.html?m=1

Disclaimer: I haven't read this since it was first published, but I'm pretty sure this is it.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Italiahaircolor said:


> You know, I'm torn.
> 
> Yes, there is a rub in giving away 15% of your profits ... but are we talking a .99-4.99 bracket, or are we talking about a 9.99 price? And what does that 15% get you by way of marketing, publicity?
> 
> There isn't enough for me to make a decision on whether I think it's a racket or a valid option with only the information provided.


Agents don't do promotion. Nowhere does she hint that they do the slightest promotion. God, she doesn't mention doing anything but hitting the upload button and then taking in the money--which they eventually send a cut of to the author. And what difference does the price of the novel make? Novels can make a profit at any of the prices you mention.

Racket may be too harsh a word, but to say it is a bad deal is putting it mildly.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

RobertJCrane said:


> http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2011/04/ebooks-and-self-publishing-part-2_03.html?m=1
> 
> Disclaimer: I haven't read this since it was first published, but I'm pretty sure this is it.


Yes, that's the one. DWS gives his opinion in that and I have to agree. If you don't want to do the cover and formatting, it's easy enough to hire the same people that Dystel does to do it for you. But then YOU get the income reports and the income comes directly to you. Having someone in the middle makes no sense at all to me.


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## 60865 (Jun 11, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> lol Maybe you should open a digital publishing program!
> 
> $1,000 of ebook revenues a month (not a ton)
> x 12 months
> ...


There's a Beattles song that can be your theme for that!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

On "mercy-publishing" 15% of nothing is....nothing. I don't see her making deals on books that won't net her a dime since she isn't getting a fee on top of the subcontractor stuff.

The cold hard reality is MANY indie writers benefit from the wisdom of those who have been in the industry for years/decades. The wisdom that explains what the heck is genre, why there are cover expectations in certain genres etc. The same newbie questions answered five times a week on this board alone. Yes, you can get it free in some places, but there's still conflicting reports and the time it takes to track it down, assuming you even know what information you NEED to track down. I can talk about header tags to set off chapter headings to authors with multiple ebooks published and get blank stares....

I spent 12 months pouring over every shred of information I could find on publishing a book before I published mine. I still made many, many mistakes. It took me time to learn to format my own books. More time to start learning the fundamentals of graphic design. And I'm at an advantage... I'm a huge computer nerd!

The number of authors I've met who have extreme difficulties with all things technology, from understanding what it even means for a graphic to be at least 1000 pixels along it's longest side to powers of negotiating with subcontractors when work isn't fitting "the vision" and how or what you can do about it... I can see 15% being a fair project management fee. 

We who have skills and savvy from whatever is in our past to give us those experiences to navigate most of the treacherous waters on our own shouldn't be quick to yell "scam" on an otherwise trustworthy business professional who has offered her services to fill in those gaps with a relatively low threshold. These are authors with the writing skills to craft a great book, but not the publishing skills or time to bother with the nuances to run that side of the show on their own. Does that mean they don't get a spot at the table, even if they're willing to pay for it?

And as far as the author paying the subcontractor directly, that's an expense regardless. Sure buyer beware which "Agent" you pick as your architect/project manager to build your  ebook house, but there's nothing wrong with acknowledging you need guidance and pursuing it. Why should this agent work for free to answer questions, run interference, maintain a standard of quality etc. when we grumble about people who think we should write for free? Everyone has to eat. If this agent, who from the sound of it is trading on her previous success in representing authors and their works, good for her! Where is the rule that we all must volunteer and work for free? 

Now 15% to an agent no one has ever heard of, no one can speak about working with, and is just putting out a shingle? Yes, I'd say there needs to be more proof in the pudding. But this? I'm going to give one professional in this industry the benefit of the doubt from another professional in the industry, at least until I hear otherwise.

Would I use this service? Probably not until I had a number of titles ready to go and didn't want to take the time because I'm enjoying writing too much. Unfortunately, I enjoy the challenge aspect of this business and learning new skills. So really, with my tech skills and love to learn new things, I enjoy keeping this a mainly one woman show. But, there are other times when I DO work with other professionals in my online work, and our split is a percentage of the profits and that works because it keeps us both motivated.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> We who have skills and savvy from whatever is in our past to give us those experiences to navigate most of the treacherous waters on our own shouldn't be quick to yell "scam" on an otherwise trustworthy business professional who has offered her services to fill in those gaps with a relatively low threshold. These are authors with the writing skills to craft a great book, but not the publishing skills or time to bother with the nuances to run that side of the show on their own. Does that mean they don't get a spot at the table, even if they're willing to pay for it?


This.

I'm in a local RWA chapter with a lot of long-time multi-published authors, several of whom have RITAs or RT Reviewer's Choice Awards, etc. In other words, not exactly newbies who are easy prey for a scam artist, and yet many of them would happily turn over the project management of self-publishing to their agent in exchange for 15% because it means they get to focus on what they do best -- writing.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> On "mercy-publishing" 15% of nothing is....nothing. I don't see her making deals on books that won't net her a dime since she isn't getting a fee on top of the subcontractor stuff.
> 
> The cold hard reality is MANY indie writers benefit from the wisdom of those who have been in the industry for years/decades. The wisdom that explains what the heck is genre, why there are cover expectations in certain genres etc. The same newbie questions answered five times a week on this board alone. Yes, you can get it free in some places, but there's still conflicting reports and the time it takes to track it down, assuming you even know what information you NEED to track down. I can talk about header tags to set off chapter headings to authors with multiple ebooks published and get blank stares....
> 
> ...


In a sane world, that means they _hire_ someone. That's what I do. Guess what. I don't do ANY of the technical stuff myself but I also don't give away 15% in perpetuity. The author doesn't know what a good cover is?_ Who says Dystel does_? Covers are not part of what she does as an agent, and the author apparently doesn't even work directly with the designer, just pays the bill.



> And as far as the author paying the subcontractor directly, that's an expense regardless. Sure buyer beware which "Agent" you pick as your architect/project manager to build your ebook house, but there's nothing wrong with acknowledging you need guidance and pursuing it. Why should this agent work for free to answer questions, run interference, maintain a standard of quality etc. when we grumble about people who think we should write for free? Everyone has to eat. If this agent, who from the sound of it is trading on her previous success in representing authors and their works, good for her! Where is the rule that we all must volunteer and work for free?
> 
> Now 15% to an agent no one has ever heard of, no one can speak about working with, and is just putting out a shingle? Yes, I'd say there needs to be more proof in the pudding. But this? I'm going to give one professional in this industry the benefit of the doubt from another professional in the industry, at least until I hear otherwise.
> 
> Would I use this service? Probably not until I had a number of titles ready to go and didn't want to take the time because I'm enjoying writing too much. Unfortunately, I enjoy the challenge aspect of this business and learning new skills. So really, with my tech skills and love to learn new things, I enjoy keeping this a mainly one woman show. But, there are other times when I DO work with other professionals in my online work, and our split is a percentage of the profits and that works because it keeps us both motivated.


When you self-publish, what the heck is the advantage of having an agent that "someone" has heard of? It's an advantage in talking to the Big 6 but not at KDP. I can assure that 99% of the Amazon buyers haven't and don't care. I don't care how long someone has been around or who has heard of them, I expect value for money and pushing the upload button and then cutting me a check when they get my money first is NOT value.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I raised my eyebrows when I read about the 15% for basically doing very little. But, then I remembered reading about this way back when they started doing it. I don't think they are really going after this in the sense of luring in new writers. I believe it started because some of their existing clients asked for help, and didn't want to deal with managing everything. Is it worth 15%? I don't think so. But, it's something you opt into, you're not required to do this if you sign with them. I have a traditionally published friend who is with another agency that has a similar program. I told her I thought she could easily do it herself, but she's happy having them do it because she'd rather just focus on the writing. 

I got the sense from the article that Jane Dystel is much more interested in finding the next Colleen Hoover or Traci Garvis, signing them off the ebook bestseller lists and landing them a 7 figure traditional deal. That's where she makes her real money.


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## HAGrant (Jul 17, 2011)

Not a very good deal. You have to take care of three basics: editing/proofing, formatting, and a cover. You can learn to do some of those things yourself, or if you're busy, lazy or terrified, you hire people. It can be daunting to be new to self-publishing and not know who to contact... but come on, it's not that hard. You can even go through Amazon, pick out books you like, and use the Look Inside feature to see who did the formatting and the covers. I've LOVED having a say about my covers.

Promotion is the total pain and the agent isn't going to do that for you. 

Taking 15 percent to upload a book is nuts. Even worse, the agent will need to ask you for your bank info, etc. By the time you give it to the agent, you could have typed it in the form yourself.


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

RobertJCrane said:


> http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2011/04/ebooks-and-self-publishing-part-2_03.html?m=1
> 
> Disclaimer: I haven't read this since it was first published, but I'm pretty sure this is it.


Okay, I read through it, and he seems to be saying that if an estributor was going to pay all the costs, then it would be worth giving them 15%.

I looked at the D&G article, and really, it does sound like all they're doing for 15% is uploading to Amazon, B&N, Kobo, etc.

While I'd be happy to have them represent me and try to set up a paperback deal with a publishing house, I'd feel like a fool paying them, or any agency, 15% to upload my books to Amazon, B&N and Sony. Especially if I've had to pay the cost of formatting, editing, covers, etc. on top of the 15%.

I have to agree with Joe on this. For 15%, I'd want more than someone just uploading my e-books.

On the other hand, I'd be willing to trade 15% if they distributed my books to retail outlets that I wouldn't be able to access on my own. But it doesn't sound like that's what they're offering.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

PamelaKelley said:


> I told her I thought she could easily do it herself, but she's happy having them do it because she'd rather just focus on the writing.


The sad thing is that it doesn't allow the author to "just focus on writing". What do they do that they author would otherwise be doing? Hit the upload button. Look at a statement once a month and check it against the bank deposit.

THAT'S IT!

Woohoo! That saves a lot of time and effort. I really shake my head over people who agree to it.

ETA: All right, they might also have to spend one day talking to the company they outsource to, but that's hardly going to keep them from their "focus on the writing".


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> The sad thing is that it doesn't allow the author to "just focus on writing". What do they do that they author would otherwise be doing? Hit the upload button. Look at a statement once a month and check it against the bank deposit.
> 
> THAT'S IT!


You and I both know this, but try telling it to a lot of authors. Whenever I talk about self-publishing, so many of my author friends say "Wow, my head is just spinning! So much to think about. I don't even know where to start."

A group of us actually just convinced one of our friends to take her self-pubs back from her agent. (Her agent had been uploading for her for the past 2 years -- but she didn't even have to arrnage for editing since the books had been previously published.) She's now been handling her own books for a week now and she admitted to us that it's a lot easier than she thought it would be and she now feels like an idiot for not having done it sooner. She feels like she'd just been giving her agnet money for no reason.


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

About a year ago, my agent attended a meeting (with other agents) put on by Amazon and another by Mark Coker of Smashwords. The agents were told that if they uploaded their clients' work, it would receive 'special' treatment. The specifics were vague, but led the agents (at least mine) to believe that Amazon (and Smashwords) would do extra publicity and promotion for these books that they considered vetted/gatekeepered.

I see no mention of this in Jane Dystel's post and have heard nothing since.

Has anyone seen any evidence of Amazon (or Smashwords) doing extra promotion on books uploaded by literary agents?


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Maggie Dana said:


> Has anyone seen any evidence of Amazon (or Smashwords) doing extra promotion on books uploaded by literary agents?


I know people who use their agent's uploading services for their self-publishing who have gotten to be a Kindle Daily Deal or a Nook First (and they say it was because the agent set it up).

But I've been both a Kindle Daily Deal and a Nook First title, and I most certainly did my own uploading. My former agent and i parted ways 3 years ago and I've been unagented since. So it definitely wasn't any promotion being done by an agent in my case.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Maggie Dana said:


> About a year ago, my agent attended a meeting (with other agents) put on by Amazon and another by Mark Coker of Smashwords. The agents were told that if they uploaded their clients' work, it would receive 'special' treatment. The specifics were vague, but led the agents (at least mine) to believe that Amazon (and Smashwords) would do extra publicity and promotion for these books that they considered vetted/gatekeepered.
> 
> I see no mention of this in Jane Dystel's post and have heard nothing since.
> 
> Has anyone seen any evidence of Amazon (or Smashwords) doing extra promotion on books uploaded by literary agents?


I don't believe this. I believe it's possible the agent heard this being said, but I doubt very highly it's true that it's done.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Respectfully, it all depends on HOW the relationship is between the author and the agent. We are all assuming quite a bit here, and yelling SCAM in a public forum on an otherwise respected individual? I mean, this is an SEO indexed forum. This agent now has this post with scam in the results for a search. Does anyone think about that before we do these finger pointing posts? Is there any evidence this is a scam? I haven't heard any.

It's NOT just uploading. And all of us who have ever helped another author along know that. IF the agent is uploading the title to her kdp account, there is no personal information from the author such as a bank account. That's a bonus for authors in MANY situations, from a lack of U.S. citizenship so no 30% automatically held, to an author who wants to really remain very anonymous with a pseudonym.

There are a myriad of reasons why an author looking to go into a business contract with this agent might agree to 15% in perpetuity on that title. It's one title. Author can always go write another one if it's really a big deal. But until I hear a client who did this and was upset about the results, I'm not going to assume this agent isn't worth the 15% "stake" in this business interest. 

Think of it like this: I have a great idea for a novel. I write it. I don't know the first thing about trying to bring this ebook to market in the most valuable way possible (not necessarily cheapest, but best value for my budget). I could wait, learn all I need to know about what makes a good cover, a good editor, a great product description etc. take my hard knocks as I make mistakes, waste more time and money, or I could work with someone who knows this stuff already and won't let me go wrong. Why won't this person let me go wrong? Because I'm going to give them a stake in my novel. That's all. It's my first one, and really, unless we're successful, I'm not paying a whole lot. But in the meantime, I learn a TON of information and experience without wasting my first ebook publishing experience.

That's all. I'm not comfortable tacitly agreeing as a community someone is a scam with no complaints from clients, or assuming this agent is unethical. At the end of the day, the author is still opting in and in charge. When I said buyer beware the agent you pick it's because someone with no real publishing experience can't really help you. That would a buyer beware moment, which by the way is how some authors feel just with the idea of having to hire all of these subcontractors others of us hire all the time with no qualms.

I've bought and sold four houses. First three, hubby and I used agents. This last time around? We did a great deal with a lawyer and direct buy from the other homeowners. It was a flat fee, no percentage. But first ties around we paid a percentage. Does a real estate agent DO more work on a $100,000 house versus a $200,000 house? Enough to warrant double the commission? No. But that's HOW that industry works.

15% for an agent to "represent" a book, which I think the agent is doing in this case, just not to publishers, but other players in the publishing industry, is standard. It sounds like authors are basically doing small business ventures with this agent, giving them 15% and taking on the majority of the upfront cost of opening up the business (publishing the book) in exchange for the majority of the profits and the primary shot calling. It sure beats 15% to the agent and taking only 17% as the author because the publisher paid for editing, cover art, etc. upfront but deserves the majority remainder in perpetuity.

And bottom line, it's an author's CHOICE. Not mine. So, nope, my opinion is this could be a very good solution for authors who fall into a particular demographic. I just don't fall in that classification, personally.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

I agree, Elizabeth. Unless clients are being forced to use her self-pub services, I see no reason why this is a scam. Many of us would choose not to use such a service, but that doesn't mean it isn't valuable to those who choose not to deal with the business side and devote their attention to the creative side.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> It's NOT just uploading. And all of us who have ever helped another author along know that. IF the agent is uploading the title to her kdp account, there is no personal information from the author such as a bank account. That's a bonus for authors in MANY situations, from a lack of U.S. citizenship so no 30% automatically held, to an author who wants to really remain very anonymous with a pseudonym.


I'm quite sure Ms. Dystel's agency wouldn't operate as a front to help foreigners avoid paying taxes they are required to pay in the U.S. And Amazon doesn't release confidential information about pen names or bank accounts, so that's no reason to use a service like this or pay 15% for it.

But I agree with your point that using the word "scam" is dangerous. Probably anyone here who might have used that particular word meant that it "appears" to be like scams we've all seen before, as it has some of the hallmarks of those that have been perpetrated in the past by others on naive authors. But without the terms of the contract and all of the info, it's partially speculation. No one here has claimed to know all the details; they are commenting on what they know.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> The sad thing is that it doesn't allow the author to "just focus on writing". What do they do that they author would otherwise be doing? Hit the upload button. Look at a statement once a month and check it against the bank deposit.
> 
> THAT'S IT!
> 
> ...


I know. I agree. She doesn't though and I think a big part of it is she feels very loyal to her agent who really has done some amazing things for her over the years. Her agent does all of the legwork, coordinating and contacting the vendors and all my friend has to do is approve things, so she does feel that it saves her time. That said, I don't think some of these agents know any more about how to market ebooks than writers do. It's new to everyone and I shook my head at some of the decisions her agent made, especially around pricing and promotion. Her book was priced way too high at 4.99 and though I've mentioned a million times to her that they should consider doing some freebie promotions as she has multiple books available, they haven't yet. I think she's missing out frankly by using her agent, but it's her decision so I don't offer my opinion unless it's dragged out of me...because it doesn't make a difference if she's not going to do something.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> I'm quite sure Ms. Dystel's agency wouldn't operate as a front to help foreigners avoid paying taxes they are required to pay in the U.S. And Amazon doesn't release confidential information about pen names or bank accounts, so that's no reason to use a service like this or pay 15% for it.
> 
> But I agree with your point that using the word "scam" is dangerous. Probably anyone here who might have used that particular word meant that it "appears" to be like scams we've all seen before, as it has some of the hallmarks of those that have been perpetrated in the past by others on naive authors. But without the terms of the contract and all of the info, it's partially speculation. No one here has claimed to know all the details; they are commenting on what they know.


From my research, it's not a tax scam. There are a number of tax treaties between the United States and other countries that do NOT require the 30% withholding. Should have clarified that. But, Amazon will not get down to the individual's country of origin, and I understand as that's an accounting nightmare, so the author is the one out the money all year long until they get it back from the IRS in a refund. There's an IRS publication on the whole list and percentages and which countries are exempt what and on what kinds of businesses etc. It's not fun to read and interpret.

There are ways to legally work around this that isn't scamming taxes, but requires a good deal of legwork and paperwork Amazon just isn't going to do on an individual author basis. It's not required that all foreign nationals in business have 30% of their earnings withheld, it's just Amazon CYA.

I only know this because I've played this role for other authors in the past, ethically, but ultimately decided 10% wasn't worth the headache to me for what's involved accounting wise.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> From my research, it's not a tax scam. There are a number of tax treaties between the United States and other countries that do NOT require the 30% withholding. Should have clarified that. But, Amazon will not get down to the individual's country of origin, and I understand as that's an accounting nightmare, so the author is the one out the money all year long until they get it back from the IRS in a refund. There's an IRS publication on the whole list and percentages and which countries are exempt what and on what kinds of businesses etc. It's not fun to read and interpret.
> 
> There are ways to legally work around this that isn't scamming taxes, but requires a good deal of legwork and paperwork Amazon just isn't going to do on an individual author basis. It's not required that all foreign nationals in business have 30% of their earnings withheld, it's just Amazon CYA.
> 
> I only know this because I've played this role for other authors in the past, ethically, but ultimately decided 10% wasn't worth the headache to me for what's involved accounting wise.


I just check the entire thread. No one claimed that what Dystel was doing was a scam. No one used that word except people saying it _wasn't_ a scam. Read carefully or you might freak someone out, scolding posters for saying things they didn't. Everyone can just relax now and take a sip of tea and know we're all still having a civil conversation about this stuff, whatever it is. 

You can check my post about this tax issue. You use the term "tax scam" (cite above) but I did not. I talked about a "front" while also saying that's not what Dystel's doing with regard to collecting money for authors. Bandying about these terms is dangerous as you've already mentioned, so that's why I'm clarifying for anyone who might not read the whole thread and see the original post you're responding to.

Regardless of whether it's Amazon paying the author or Dystel's agency doing, it, they're both required to withhold the tax money until the person files the form with the IRS to get it back (and they do get it back if the treaty exists and it doesn't have to take a long time if done properly.) So I would bet, since Ms. Dystel has such a great reputation in the industry, that she does it the proper way and doesn't "forget" or neglect to withhold taxes.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm still sipping my tea happy as a clam. 

And when it comes to taxes, there are exemptions for the exemptions.  I agree that I am confident things are being done correctly as well. 

Now I get to chastise myself for thousands of words on a forum and nary a one on a WIP.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I'm still sipping my tea happy as a clam.
> 
> And when it comes to taxes, there are exemptions for the exemptions.  I agree that I am confident things are being done correctly as well.
> 
> Now I get to chastise myself for thousands of words on a forum and nary a one on a WIP.


I was very impressed with your word count.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Personally, I think this type of service would be very useful for those who are self-publishing an anthology or who have a co-author. 15% in exchange for using the agent's existing accounting practices is a bargain, if you ask me.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Writing life = 4 years writing nonfiction articles from a common set of research. Jammed out 1-2k per hour. Built on my professional capacity as a procrastinator on 30 page papers in college to the last 24-48 hours.

1 year writing fiction, 1 year promoting said fiction. I can write about 800-1200 in 30 minutes when I have my outline. 

My problem is myself. I lack discipline of butt in chair when it comes to fiction writing. But I'm working on it.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

FWIW I'm repped by a junior agent at Dystel (I'm also repped elsewhere for another book), and some months ago, maybe even a year ago now, my agent at Dystel failed to sell my book, and I asked about this new service they were starting up and was told essentially: you know what you're doing with self-publishing (an exaggeration in actuality), you don't need us. My sense is this is a long fishing expedition for them, they don't really know what they'll be doing in the long run, but it's worth exploring new revenue streams.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I think the issue is the price compared to alternative ways of doing the same thing. That doesn't mean it's a scam. I see people refuting the idea it's a scam, but don't see anyone saying it is a scam. 

It's reasonable to see a range of prices for the same service, and it's reasonable to highlight the differences.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> You and I both know this, but try telling it to a lot of authors. Whenever I talk about self-publishing, so many of my author friends say "Wow, my head is just spinning! So much to think about. I don't even know where to start."
> 
> A group of us actually just convinced one of our friends to take her self-pubs back from her agent. (Her agent had been uploading for her for the past 2 years -- but she didn't even have to arrnage for editing since the books had been previously published.) She's now been handling her own books for a week now and she admitted to us that it's a lot easier than she thought it would be and she now feels like an idiot for not having done it sooner. She feels like she'd just been giving her agnet money for no reason.


I realize that. Convincing people of it isn't that easy, but it's sad for them. I am not saying it's our business to go out and convert people, but I honestly can't see it as a good business decision. If someone asks my opinion, and a few people have, I'll tell them and I'll post it here. But otherwise, if they can't be bothered to educate themselves, it's not my business.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I wonder if the future belongs to independent authors who can do it themselves. They have a financial competitive advantage over those who pay15%. The market may select against those who can't hold down costs. It's happened over and over before. A 15% cost advantage is a big deal in any industry.


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> The sad thing is that it doesn't allow the author to "just focus on writing". What do they do that they author would otherwise be doing? Hit the upload button. Look at a statement once a month and check it against the bank deposit.
> 
> THAT'S IT!
> 
> ...


This. If u can list something on eBay, u can figure out kdp.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Just to play devil's advocate here. Let's say I took this arrangement. And let's say that one of my books began to take off. I would already have an agent of some note poised to exploit and maximize any bump to the benefit of a traditional deal, movie deal or foreign rights. I assume she would watch sales figures closely. I would also wager a much smaller bump might warrant her becoming more involved with a title than waiting for dramatic sales to attract agents and publishers. This could shave months off getting a title up and running in the acquisition market and time is money when catching lightening in a bottle.
> 
> And the article appears to say that she only takes writers that are already doing something positive, not just anybody. It hints that she is doing more than hitting publish and also (from other articles) she might get better access to markets or special deals. SW is already doing the same thing, but without any representation or other tangible benefit. People use SW for convenience it sounds like since most of the e-retailers allow direct uploading.
> 
> ...


If your book takes off, you won't need to have an agent already on board. You will be able to pick and choose between the _many_ that will be interested in representing you. I've heard it from several authors. Once the publishers call, the agents come out of the woodwork, clamoring for the relationship. Once there's already money on the table, you don't have to worry about finding an agent (funny how that works, eh?) So I don't see that as a selling point here.

I'm not sure why you think a small bump in sales would get the agent to do anything (your lightning in the bottle comment). Small bumps mean nothing in our world other than you don't sell enough books. It's the nature of the industry to have small bumps here and there, and the majority of them never do much more than bump before going back down or setting a slightly higher average.

I didn't see where in the article it suggested she did more than project management (that you will pay for), hit publish, collect money, and send out 85% of it. Wouldn't it be nice if she did do more than that? I wish she did. But from her own words, it sure doesn't seem like it. And I received a PM from someone who used the sub-contractor service she uses, and I'm told it's very expensive. Way more than what you can get for equal quality.

I also don't see where she's jumping any lines to get to indies. What she says in her article is there are indies who are already selling a lot of books _who come to her_ (not the other way around). Quote: _"We still get submissions, of course. We have for years and years. You have to weed through these submissions. More recently these indie authors, who were already tried and true because they have these great sales, would come to us. As long as they were good writers and they could tell a good story and I felt they had a writing future, I really wanted to try to help them."
_
To me, it's almost as if she takes indies who are midlist types who she can't really do anything for as far as a trad deal, and gives them something to keep them happy and make her some money, but not that she works at shopping that project around. Her next line is interesting: _"We took on a lot of our clients and just handled the foreign and the British and the audio and the movie rights. In some cases traditional publishers would approach us and would ask us if the authors were interested in a traditional deal. And if they were interested we would try to make it happen and if not we would just continue on with what we were doing before."_

So, if she does your digital stuff and you happen to get approached by a trad publisher, then she'll handle it for you (and take 15% of that too). But if not, she'll just keep taking your digital 15%. But note she _never_ says anywhere in there that if they accept you as a digital publishing client that she's going to be shopping your property around and trying to find a traditional publishing contract. It sounds like it's the consolation prize for submissions from indies who she can't do anything traditional with. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not down with consolation prizes when it comes to my work.

Unless you get assurances from the agent that she's going to try and find you a paper deal, I don't see anything in this article that suggests that's part of the program; so if you join it, don't assume you're getting that traditional author/agent relationship.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

So, I read the post from JK, and he doesn't actually endorse what this deal sounds like. He's talking about somebody to manage the book to publication and beyond, not a middle man to hook you up with services.

Pointing me to a formatter or a cover artist, on my own dime, and then uploading and collecting my money, doesn't seem worth 15% for whatever the length of the contract. 

As to getting into other markets, I don't think there are any a writer can't access on their own, if they're willing to put some effort into it. If I had a Mac, I'd go direct to the Apple store, but since I don't, I'm willing to pay Smashwords to distribute there.

Oh, heck, this is getting too long. I agree with Elle, in short.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

> We are not publishers. We don't take 50% as some of my colleagues do. I think those agents, in my opinion, who have separate ebook publishing entities, I think it's a conflict of interest for them.


This is a classic salesman line. I know, because I use to sell Kirby vacuums. "Mrs. Jones, if you bought everything that the Kirby does as a separate machine, you could spend over $5,000! But the Kirby is only $1499!"

Yeah, that method works (believe it or not). Because it creates a false value and then leads the potential customer to think of the current price as a bargain.

After reading that, I still don't know what the blue hell she is offering. I read the article and some of the comments here. If all she is doing is creating accounts at Amazon and BN and elsewhere and uploading files, she's out of her mind. The author is doing all of the hard work and she's getting paid for uploading a file. This is ridiculous.

But am I understanding correctly that she is both charging an agency fee AND steering authors toward pre-selected editors and designers? Isn't that an ethical violation for agents? And even if it isn't outright unethical, doesn't that open the door to potential kickbacks and behind-closed-doors deals with editors and service providers?


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> From my research, it's not a tax scam. There are a number of tax treaties between the United States and other countries that do NOT require the 30% withholding. Should have clarified that. *But, Amazon will not get down to the individual's country of origin, and I understand as that's an accounting nightmare, so the author is the one out the money all year long until they get it back from the IRS in a refund. There's an IRS publication on the whole list and percentages and which countries are exempt what and on what kinds of businesses etc. It's not fun to read and interpret.
> 
> There are ways to legally work around this that isn't scamming taxes, but requires a good deal of legwork and paperwork Amazon just isn't going to do on an individual author basis. It's not required that all foreign nationals in business have 30% of their earnings withheld, it's just Amazon CYA.*
> 
> I only know this because I've played this role for other authors in the past, ethically, but ultimately decided 10% wasn't worth the headache to me for what's involved accounting wise.


I'm Dutch and I figured it out quite easily.

A) Get an EIN
B) Fill out a W-8BEN and sent it to Amazon accounting.

From then on, Amazon is aware of your tax exempt status and will transfer 100% of the royalties to you. Not quite the administrative nightmare alluded to above.



C.C. Kelly said:


> Again, both SW and D2D take 15% if I'm not mistaken and don't offer anything more, yet lots of writers use them without reservation, more or less, (and I don't remember seeing a specific royalty distribution schedule in the article - 15% of what?).


I gather the reason people go with SW and D2D is not because they can't figure out how to upload to KDP. I'm with D2D for B&N, because as a non-US resident I cannot upload to B&N myself. I upload my books to Kobo, KDP, and iTunes, but iTunes is also a reason for many authors to go with D2D because iTunes can only be uploaded through iTunesProducer, which runs on Macs, not on PC. There is a workaround for that, but many authors find it easier to upload to an aggregator and leave it to them.

I would've gone with SW if not for their pesky Word files and Meatgrinder issues (I don't write in Word), so when D2D appeared with the possibility to upload epub and distribute to B&N I joined them. 85% of something is better than 100% of nothing.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But am I understanding correctly that she is both charging an agency fee AND steering authors toward pre-selected editors and designers? Isn't that an ethical violation for agents? And even if it isn't outright unethical, doesn't that open the door to potential kickbacks and behind-closed-doors deals with editors and service providers?


Yes, she serves as basically a "project manager" in the way a general contractor does on a construction site. She hires all the subcontractors (editors, cover designers, ebook formatters) for the author, manages those relationships, and the AUTHOR pays for all of it. Then she uploads the final document (or has the author pay someone to do it, not sure) onto her Amazon, B&N, etc. accounts. She collects all the money, then sends the author her part (minus the 15%).


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> Yes, she serves as basically a "project manager" in the way a general contractor does on a construction site. She hires all the subcontractors (editors, cover designers, ebook formatters) for the author, manages those relationships, and the AUTHOR pays for all of it. Then she uploads the final document (or has the author pay someone to do it, not sure) onto her Amazon, B&N, etc. accounts. She collects all the money, then sends the author her part (minus the 15%).


I don't care what her reputation is. This is shady. There is no way for the author to know whether or not she is getting kickbacks from the sub-contractors. And I'm going to throw out an educated guess that these subcontractors are demanding premium rates.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I don't care what her reputation is. This is shady. There is no way for the author to know whether or not she is getting kickbacks from the sub-contractors. And I'm going to throw out an educated guess that these subcontractors are demanding premium rates.


I got a PM from someone who used the same formatter and she said they were VERY expensive. You can go to their website and see the pricing. Pretty high to my eyes.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Holy cow, those formatting fees are insane!

No wonder many traditionally-published authors (who want to digitize their backlist) are shocked when I refer them to Lucinda Campbell or Jason G. Anderson, and see what they charge. I knew my formatters were reasonably priced, but wow!


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> Holy cow, those formatting fees are insane!
> 
> No wonder many traditionally-published authors (who want to digitize their backlist) are shocked when I refer them to Lucinda Campbell or Jason G. Anderson, and see what they charge. I knew my formatters were reasonably priced, but wow!


That reminds me of the early days of the www when people charged ridiculous prices to create Web sites, before clients realised that relatively little expertise is needed. Hopefully writers will cotton on that formatting a book isn't THAT specialised. Even if they choose not to do it themselves, they can still find someone to do it at a reasonable rate.

But I think because it's still so new, and people don't really understand what good or bad formatting really means, people think there is some mysterious something that the super expensive formatters do. Like a superstition.


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## Madeline (Jun 5, 2010)

How are you all figuring out which sub contractors she is using?  She doesn't mention that anywhere in the article...


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Madeline said:


> How are you all figuring out which sub contractors she is using? She doesn't mention that anywhere in the article...


If you read the original post that started this thread, you'll see a link to that info and details quoted.


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## Madeline (Jun 5, 2010)

ellecasey said:


> If you read the original post that started this thread, you'll see a link to that info and details quoted.


Ah, ok, the more I dig the more I find.

It's worth noting that if you look at the front page of 52novels.com, Joe has a plug there for them. She also plugs representing Joe in the article.

So yeah, I get it now.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Ah, ok, the more I dig the more I find.
> 
> It's worth noting that if you look at the front page of 52novels.com, Joe has a plug there for them. She also plugs representing Joe in the article.
> 
> So yeah, I get it now.


Yes, and you can see the sub-contractor/formatter strenuously supporting her business model in the commets to that post.


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## Madeline (Jun 5, 2010)

ellecasey said:


> Yes, and you can see the sub-contractor/formatter strenuously supporting her business model in the commets to that post.


He charges almost $200.00 an hour for a service that I can click one button and have completed in 10 seconds.

Damn.

I need to hang a formatting shingle.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2013)

Madeline said:


> Ah, ok, the more I dig the more I find.


The unfortunate story of my life, and why I tend to be so cynical.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Yes, she serves as basically a "project manager" in the way a general contractor does on a construction site. "


The general contractor normally has to put the various work scopes out to competitive bid. If the general is working on a PM contract with a fixed fee the subcontractor contract is with the principal, not the general contractor. I don't se anything here to indicate a competitive bidding situation for any specific book production work scope.

There are times when the work scope and situation make competitive bidding impractical. But sole-source contract awards always get unusually intense examination.

This stuff has been worked out over thousands of projects for many years. We get the benefits of all that experience. We can apply those lessons to books.

[If the general is working on a lump sum contract, the subcontractor contract is with the general, not the principal. But that is not a project management contract.]


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

I'm sure some new timid authors might need their hands held while they are ushered through the complexities of SP on Amazon and Jane & Company seen ready to step in and help...themselves. The same for those way over priced contractors who are way over-priced. Don't care if JK endorses 52 or anyone else. 

It seems all Jane does is point you to her pricey over-priced contractors and after you pay them off--Jane puts your book up. Seems pricey to me and can't see experienced SP's using her at all.  Only the new and naive. Kickbacks anyone?


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> Holy cow, those formatting fees are insane!
> 
> No wonder many traditionally-published authors (who want to digitize their backlist) are shocked when I refer them to Lucinda Campbell or Jason G. Anderson, and see what they charge. I knew my formatters were reasonably priced, but wow!


I just about choked when I looked them up. The "premium package" price, which is what I always get from my formatter, is outrageous. Over 7 times as much as I pay.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Madeline said:


> He charges almost $200.00 an hour for a service that I can click one button and have completed in 10 seconds.
> 
> d*mn.
> 
> I need to hang a formatting shingle.


Formatting for others is not the same as formatting for yourself. When you format for others, you have to correct all of the nuances of THEIR file. You were doing all that as you were writing. I charged $25-$50 for an ebook format to clean up the file and run it through Jutoh. I even TOLD my clients, this is what I do, if you want me to teach you how to do it, I will. I quit formatting ebooks because after the emails back and forth and all of the work of cleaning up the files, it wasn't worth it. But I STILL get emails from authors every week asking if I can format their ebook for them. And I point them right to Jutoh which is a $40 program.

Ebook formatting is a mystery for many authors to this day, no matter what formatting process they use just how it all works, and Amazon et al. change the guidelines regularly. And, depending on the functionality you want in the book, such as the new panels and frames feature with KDP Guidelines 8, it can be a lengthy process for a book.


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

I wondered why my ears were burning. Ah, the treasures you find in your Web site's analytics.   In any case, some things:

1. If I was strenuously supporting anything at The Passive Voice the other day it was the people with whom I share relationships, the agency and the authors for whom we make books. I don't know the contract details that D&G puts in front of the authors who participate and I don't really care. I do know enough about it to know that it's more than uploading. I also know that the things that people there were either saying or hinting at---whether directed at the agency or the authors---were wholly disconnected from my experience. I can't speak for anyone else's values, but I can speak for mine. The relationships I've made---whether with other production professionals, authors (newbie and pro, alike), small presses, and agencies---are what's most important to me in this business. One of the other commenters there, who's also on my author roster, said that relationships are a form of currency. While I don't view them as such precisely, there's some truth there and I understood what he was driving at. In publishing, like a lot of businesses, relationships are vital. So, yeah, when I think someone with whom I share one is being unfairly judged or maligned, I'll try to defend that.

2. I have no idea whether we're a preferred subcontractor nor whether the agency even makes such a distinction. Here's how this typically goes: One of the agents sends my wife, who's our project manager, an email with a manuscript attached, asking for a quote. My wife works it up and sends it back. A few days later, the agency either accepts or declines. I'm left to assume that they've also solicited other shops, but I have no idea what they present to the authors. All I know for sure is what we get booked to do. Sometimes it's for ebooks. The last two or three have just been print.

3. As some in this thread have supposed, and as I stated specifically at TPV, authors who participate in this do so because they have specific business objectives they want to accomplish and given a slate of options have found this one in particular to be the one that suits them. I also said the authors have been in the business a while and that one in particular has been a working novelist for 40 years. We did paper for him, but he'd self-published many back list titles before D&G started this program (or at least before they'd publicly announced it). In my shop's experience, D&G's not preying on people whose dreams are presently pinned to becoming a published novelist. In most cases, where we're involved, it's because the author has back list reverting to them. If you've ever brought 20-year-old PDFs back to life as ebooks you know it's hard work. These authors want to ensure the work's done well... if their agency can help with that, it might be well worth 15 points to them. YMMV.

4. I'm intentionally being opaque about who these authors are. While I do not have an NDA with D&G, I presume that to be baked into the cake.

5. Joe Konrath was my first client, going back to late Winter/early Spring of 2010. But I've known and had done Web-related work for Joe since sometime in 2005 or 2006. Generally speaking, Joe calls me when he wants my shop to make books for him. He's also used D&G's program (which, as noted up-thread, was his idea with a few differences)... again, to satisfy specific business objectives. Mostly, though, he calls me.

6. I won't comment on my shop's pricing, except to say that: we believe that making ebooks is a craft; we don't use any automatic Word-to-ebooks software; we produce clean XHTML and design with custom CSS; we test the Kindle books we make on every Amazon device from Kindle Keyboard forward (as well as with the Kindle apps), and we test ePubs on Nook Color tablets forward (as well as on iBooks, and Kobo and Sony devices); and our production processes and tools---for both ebook and paper design---are comparable to what's found in major publishing houses. Many authors on our roster feel that these things are worth paying for. We understand that not everyone feels the same way.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> I wondered why my ears were burning. Ah, the treasures you find in your Web site's analytics.  In any case, some things:
> 
> 1. If I was strenuously supporting anything at The Passive Voice the other day it was the people with whom I share relationships, the agency and the authors for whom we make books. I don't know the contract details that D&G puts in front of the authors who participate and I don't really care. I do know enough about it to know that it's more than uploading. I also know that the things that people there were either saying or hinting at---whether directed at the agency or the authors---were wholly disconnected from my experience. I can't speak for anyone else's values, but I can speak for mine. The relationships I've made---whether with other production professionals, authors (newbie and pro, alike), small presses, and agencies---are what's most important to me in this business. One of the other commenters there, who's also on my author roster, said that relationships are a form of currency. While I don't view them as such precisely, there's some truth there and I understood what he was driving at. In publishing, like a lot of businesses, relationships are vital. So, yeah, when I think someone with whom I share one is being unfairly judged or maligned, I'll try to defend that.
> 
> ...


You may be the greatest e-book designer in the world. I'm willing to consider that possibility. JK seems to like the job you do. It really doesn't relate to the ethics of the agent/client relationship in this situation which many of us consider questionable, at best.

And I rather doubt that the agency is "helping with bringing back 20-year-old PDFs" or are you saying they're the one who're doing the conversion? I doubt that. Otherwise, why is the AUTHOR paying you?

Whether the authors who supposedly have "specific business objectives" are making good business decisions is another question entirely. I don't think you are really in any position to speak to the situation of self-published authors and whether this is in the least a sensible decision. Being traditionally published for any number of years has remarkably little to do with self-publishing, but you wouldn't know that apparently, and making that defense frankly in my opinion shows exactly how little you do know about self-publishing as an author.


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

> "JK seems to like the job you do. It really doesn't relate to the ethics of the agent/client relationship in this situation which many of us consider questionable, at best."


I brought it up because at least one person here was using my relationship with Joe and Joe's relationship with D&G to try to connect dots and impugn us all in some way.



> "And I rather doubt that the agency is "helping with bringing back 20-year-old PDFs" or are you saying they're the one who're doing the conversion? I doubt that. Otherwise, why is the AUTHOR paying you?"


What I'm saying here is that the agency is helping the author by leveraging their relationships. If that facilitates good work getting done on their behalf, then how is that not helping bring back the author's back list? You may not value your business associates' business associates, but this might be highly important to someone else. FWIW, my firm works with another agency that does, in fact, provide a resource in the conversion from PDF to ebooks. After we run the OCR and scrub the resulting Word document, the associate agent assigned to the author does her own scrub before sending it to the author for her pass through it. Then, and only then, do we make books. With D&G, we've gotten clean manuscripts so I can't say what's happened to them before we've been involved. As far as I know---and as far as you know, for that matter---they've been sent to a professional copyeditor before I get them.



> "Whether the authors who supposedly have "specific business objectives" are making good business decisions is another question entirely. ... I don't think you are really in any position to speak to the situation of self-published authors and whether this is in the least a sensible decision. Being traditionally published for any number of years has remarkably little to do with self-publishing, but you wouldn't know that apparently, and making that defense frankly in my opinion shows exactly how little you do know about self-publishing as an author."


I'm fairly certain I haven't argued one way or the other whether I think these authors are making good business decisions, so I remain unsure what this has to do with anything.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> I'm fairly certain I haven't argued one way or the other whether I think these authors are making good business decisions, so I remain unsure what this has to do with anything.


This is the main discussion of this thread (and I think of the comments on Passive Guy's blog). Is self-publishing through agents which means loosing 15% a good business practise and in what kind of value they would have to bring for that 15% to make sense. That or I have completely misunderstood this thread's purpose?


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

elalond said:


> This is the main discussion of this thread (and I think of the comments on Passive Guy's blog). Is self-publishing through agents which means loosing 15% a good business practise and in what kind of value they would have to bring for that 15% to make sense. That or I have completely misunderstood this thread's purpose?


Nope. You didn't misunderstand as far as I'm concerned.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> Nope. You didn't misunderstand as far as I'm concerned.


Than JRTolmin's comment has everything to do with it.

Regarding only what is written in the article (where the agent doesn't mentions anything beyond acting as contractor, uploader of the files/publisher and collector of the money) this is for me (as for the most of you) a bad business decision, and which, I believe, will mostly target authors aiming for traditional publishing. And not all the authors aiming for the trade, but only those who will have money to pay for the services contracted by the agents and whose stories will be able to awake agent's interest. The most depressing thing is that there is a high possibilities that this service might become very much desired among aspiring writers.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> I wondered why my ears were burning. Ah, the treasures you find in your Web site's analytics.


Yep, it's a pain when intelligent authors get together and pick apart a bad business deal and publicly warn people about it.



> 1. If I was strenuously supporting anything at The Passive Voice the other day it was the people with whom I share relationships, the agency and the authors for whom we make books. I don't know the contract details that D&G puts in front of the authors who participate and I don't really care.


Maybe you should. I know Walmart, Apple, and a lot of companies who never worried about their business partners are getting bitten in the backside right now due to forced labor and other labor abuse accusations from their business partners. Maybe since these authors are YOUR clients too you SHOULD care?



> I do know enough about it to know that it's more than uploading. I also know that the things that people there were either saying or hinting at---whether directed at the agency or the authors---were wholly disconnected from my experience. I can't speak for anyone else's values, but I can speak for mine. The relationships I've made---whether with other production professionals, authors (newbie and pro, alike), small presses, and agencies---are what's most important to me in this business.


So very important that you don't care whether or not one of your business partners (i.e. agents) may be screwing your author clients' over? 

The truth is an agent's job is to try to sell the author's book. ANY attempt to make money off of the author beyond that is cause for suspicion. Because if an agent can charge the same percentage to get you to self-publish that she can charge to get you a trade book deal (which I would think is far more labor intensive) AND throw business at her friends, there is a fundamental conflict of interests. Look, she isn't offering this as charity. She's too smart. She's done the math and realized she can make almost as much money WITH LESS WORK by serving as "project manager" on indie books. Don't expect anyone to believe this is out of the kindness of her golden heart.

Honestly, no need for _your ears_ to be burning. Besides saying your fees are outrageous compared to other professional vendors who service indies, nobody was actually questioning YOU. You can be priced out of market and still run an ethical business. Unless you are giving the agent a kickback or special consideration for sending you business, you aren't doing anything inherently wrong.

At the heart of this issue is the ethics of an agent simultaneously representing authors to publishers AND charging fees to "help" them self publish.

If she wants to work as an ebook distributor, like SW, she has an ETHICAL obligation to cease also agenting the same authors who are looking for "project management". Because you and I both know THAT is how she is selling this service. Push folks into self-publishing digitally with the promise of a potential trade deal down the road. You know it. I know it. She knows it. People in this thread know it.

If ALL she was doing was serving as a distributor and taking a commission, like SW or other services, I don't think anyone would bat an eyelash. But that isn't how she is presenting what she is doing. The more I think about this, _the more it stinks_.


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

> Yep, it's a pain when intelligent authors get together and pick apart a bad business deal and publicly warn people about it.


It was meant to be a wry joke. Note the winking emoticon. Tough crowd.



> ... due to forced labor ...


Well, when I suspect that agencies are housing authors---many of them children---20 to a room and making them write books for pennies an hour, I'll be sure to reevaluate how I feel. But while we're still talking about consenting adults who have a prior mutually-beneficial working relationship I'll extend the authors at least a tiny bit of credit for being able to read the terms of a deal and think for themselves.



> So very important that you don't care whether or not one of your business partners (i.e. agents) may be screwing your author clients' over?


These agencies aren't my business partners. I have my own business. They have theirs. On occasion they intersect. In any case, I'll leave it to the authors in question to decide for themselves whether or not they're getting a good or bad deal.



> This is the main discussion of this thread (and I think of the comments on Passive Guy's blog). Is self-publishing through agents which means loosing 15% a good business practise and in what kind of value they would have to bring for that 15% to make sense. That or I have completely misunderstood this thread's purpose?


Yet a fair amount of the discussion was directed toward me and that's chiefly what I was responding to. Meanwhile, JRTolmin crafted an impressive straw man, affixed my name to it, and then really ripped it to pieces. You'll forgive me if remain puzzled by such the display.


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## Madeline (Jun 5, 2010)

I have to second what Julie said above. This whole thing stinks to high heaven.



Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> I brought it up because at least one person here was using my relationship with Joe and Joe's relationship with D&G to try to connect dots and impugn us all in some way.


Nobody is trying to "impugn" you. In fact, from my perspective, I don't much like the lynch mob mentality. I wanted to make sure that the people who people CLAIM are involved are actually involved before settling down to make a conclusion about this for myself. Turns out you are involved, in some form or fashion, and you "don't care" if your clients are getting the raw end of a deal one way or another because they "are adults making their own decisions". Good to know you have a healthy well-developed sense of morality and ethics to back up your business goals. Good to know.

My issue with you was your fees, which is beside the point of this thread, other than the fact that this agent is finding the most expensive formatter around and then making her clients pay for that. Granted, I'm sure you have all sorts of clients....from the experienced and wise Joe clients to the newbie client. Clients like Joe understand full well what is going on, and yes, he is making a well-educated decision to use your services for a specific reason. But I'm not talking about your Joe clients. I'm talking about the clients who probably don't know they can find the exact same service for much cheaper and clients who believe they have a special deal with an agent and they must do what that agent asks to keep the deal going forward. Frankly, that looks really bad. To me anyway.


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

> Turns out you are involved, in some form or fashion, and you "don't care" if your clients are getting the raw end of a deal one way or another because they "are adults making their own decisions".


Are you actually suggesting, that rather than giving people credit for having a working brain, that I assume from the get go---with absolutely no actual basis for doing so, not knowing the specific terms of the deal---that they're being taken advantage of? I'm searching for clarification here, because this seems to be what you're telling me. If this is the case, I do not at all understand how it becomes my firm's role to be the industry police, especially when it involves making assumptions about the intelligence of authors and the integrity of their agents and substituting my judgement for theirs. Yes, there are authors out there---indies and legacy, alike---who are not the sharpest tools in the shed. And, yes, there are terrible agencies. What I know from experience---having worked with people involved in this specific arrangement---simply doesn't jibe with what many here seem to want to believe is true.



> ... other than the fact that this agent is finding the most expensive formatter around and then making her clients pay for that.


Actually, we're not the most expensive shop around. You'll find that, among the ones who make books the way we do, that we're competitively priced. But back to your point... you don't know that the agency is making her clients use us. As I mentioned, they ask us to quote a project. Sometimes we're booked for the work. Sometimes we're not. Make of that what you will.



> I'm talking about the clients who probably don't know they can find the exact same service for much cheaper and clients who believe they have a special deal with an agent and they must do what that agent asks to keep the deal going forward.


This makes some rather broad assumptions that may or may not be true under closer examination.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

This type of set-up with Dystell having new authors use her personally selected vendors, which the author then has to pay for is a system designed for abuse. 

The Agency sends him business. 

52 may very well want to say this is a good method for an author to use, since he profits from it. He is way too cozy with the Agency-Who-Is-Not-A-Publisher to be completely unbiased. 

From all appearances it seems like the Agency wants to help themselves more than help authors. This type of arrangement is an invitation for rife abuse. No way around it. Have to agree with Julie and others on this one. Just another money-game where the author pays.


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## Madeline (Jun 5, 2010)

Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> Are you actually suggesting, that rather than giving people credit for having a working brain, that I assume from the get go---with absolutely no actual basis for doing so, not knowing the specific terms of the deal---that they're being taken advantage of?


I'm not "suggesting" anything. I'm responding to what is already in print by the agent in question.



Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> I do not at all understand how it becomes my firm's role to be the industry police


I don't expect you to be the industry police. But if it were me, I wouldn't be walking around willy nilly posting how you "don't care" if your clients are getting the raw end of the deal, either. Your words, not mine.



Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> But back to your point... you don't know that the agency is making her clients use us. As I mentioned, they ask us to quote a project. Sometimes we're booked for the work. Sometimes we're not. Make of that what you will.


She states that she finds the vendors and the authors pay. I don't know how much clearer that needs to be.



Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> I'm talking about the clients who probably don't know they can find the exact same service for much cheaper and clients who believe they have a special deal with an agent and they must do what that agent asks to keep the deal going forward.
> 
> This makes some rather broad assumptions that may or may not be true under closer examination.


Really? Who else would pay her a lifetime 15% for uploading a book besides a newbie who has no idea that they can do it on their own in about 30 seconds and keep all of the profits? You're telling me that the clients that fall for this are well-educated, knowledgeable authors like Joe? I think not.


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

> 52 may very well want to say this is a good method for an author to use, since he profits from it. He is way too cozy with the Agency-Who-Is-Not-A-Publisher to be completely unbiased.


Actually, I haven't said this is a good method for an author to use. I haven't said it's a bad method, either. It's merely a method. If it works for the authors who choose it, fantastic. I hope they sell a lot of books. If they opt out for whatever reason, maybe they'll come back to me on their own in the future. In which case I'll say, "thank you for choosing us and I hope you sell a lot of books." As for my "coziness" ... the sum of our agency work---D&G and others combined---is less than 2 percent of my annual revenue. If I lost it today, I'd figure out a way to make up the dollars and would fill the slots on my schedule pretty quickly. From a relationship standpoint I'd be sad to see it go. I like the authors whose books we make and their agents are actually good people. It's certainly your prerogative to not believe me. But, hey, I know what I know.

And as far as people here attempting to impugn me and my shop goes, there were five instances of the word "kickback" on the previous page, most of them rather innocuous. Save for this one:



> It seems all Jane does is point you to her pricey over-priced contractors and after you pay them off--Jane puts your book up. Seems pricey to me and can't see experienced SP's using her at all. Only the new and naive. Kickbacks anyone?





> But if it were me, I wouldn't be walking around willy nilly posting how you "don't care" if your clients are getting the raw end of the deal, either. Your words, not mine.


So I'll clarify. When I say I don't care it's because, quite frankly, it's none of my business any more than it's my business to know whether any other author's relationships are a raw deal. Therefore, I'm not at all willing to make any judgements---one way or the other---based on incomplete details (from an Internet interview, no less), let alone details I have no business asking for. Yes, Jane said what she said, but then another interviewer might've followed up with "Fifteen percent for uploading and handling payments? Is that all they get?"



> She states that she finds the vendors and the authors pay. I don't know how much clearer that needs to be.


Well, if we're solicited for a bid and we don't end up with the work, isn't it a fair assumption that someone else is doing it? And aren't there several scenarios here that are plausible, including one that has the author choosing from among many bids? Is another one that the agency is selecting the lowest priced bids on the author's behalf or, get this, explicit instructions? I remain unsure why, when in the realm of making assumptions, that people are inclined to assume that the worst of everything is occurring to the point of exclusion of other possibilities.



> Really? Who else would pay her a lifetime 15% for uploading a book besides a newbie who has no idea that they can do it on their own in about 30 seconds and keep all of the profits? You're telling me that the clients that fall for this are well-educated, knowledgeable authors like Joe? I think not.


Then perhaps a question I should've asked is, between the both of us, who is in a better position to know?


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

If anyone is at all curious about which D&G authors have taken this deal, you may look at a list here: http://bit.ly/UHpoHt (it's D&G's page at Smashwords). With the exception of Joe Konrath---an example that reveals itself---I won't mention which projects we've worked on or in what capacity. If you're interested in learning more about who they are, read their bios. And if you remain curious about the self-publishing deals they have with D&G, or the value they place on that relationship, many of them included ways to contact them via Twitter, Facebook or their author Web sites. I imagine they'd welcome you to engage them on the matter.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2013)

Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> If anyone is at all curious about which D&G authors have taken this deal, you may look at a list here: http://bit.ly/UHpoHt (it's D&G's page at Smashwords). With the exception of Joe Konrath---an example that reveals itself---I won't mention which projects we've worked on or in what capacity.


Wait, wait, wait...stop. So D&G isn't even set up *directly* with the retailers, but instead charges 15% to "manage" their authors through Smashwords? WTF?

So the author is making whatever is left over after:

The retailer gets its cut
Smashwords gets its cut
AND D&G take their cut?

What?


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't know and any attempts by me to provide what I do know have been met with skepticism and piling on and having having my ethics questioned. Heck, before I popped in someone had the stones to accuse me of bribing the agency so that I could win these authors' business. I suppose if you want to know first hand specifics... well, you're clearly savvy enough to figure out how to get in touch with the players directly.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

it seems, based on the last couple pages of this thread, that I should have been following it from the beginning, which I haven't.  I will start at the beginning to read it through, however.

In the mean time, just based on reading the last couple of pages, there does seem to be a lot of speculation based on one article?  

I think this is a useful discussion and it's good to question--that's how we learn.  I just ask that people be careful about making accusations based on little evidence.  I appreciate Rob joining in. 

Welcome to KindleBoards, Rob--it is indeed a tough, but passionate and honest, crowd.

Off to read...

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm really glad Rob @ 52 posted here, and that I have more awareness of the company now. I can see myself recommending their services to people I know, when those people try to get me to do that stuff for them for free.

Author services ARE WORTH MONEY for sure. Cover design, editing, advising on categories ... it all has a value.

Of course, on a product that's probably going to earn about $100 average over its lifetime, it's not a _great _investment for the average one or two-book pubber, but that doesn't mean the talent of a skilled cover designer isn't worth good dollars.

Most of us here manage our businesses and paint everyone with the equality brush. Ho ho ho! Not so fast. Why does the bank charge for bounced checks? Because dumbass people (including myself) bounce checks. A lot of folks can't manage business dealings, and if there are services around that will provide some assistance, they can go ahead and charge whatever they want, as long as they're honest about it.


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

Interesting topic.  However I can also see how many authors would jump at the chance.  I can understand the argument about kickbacks with some cover artists, editors, formatters, and other services that she is requiring the authors she picks to use.  However, having consistent quality work created is in her best interest.  It would be a huge headache and bad experience all around if people showed up with $5 end of year clear-out covers along with $500 covers, some in TIFF format, or Jpg. or PNG. or some weird zip file that you haven't come across yet.

I don't want to argue how that $5 walmart shirt looks the same as the $500 shirt from Paris.  The point I think is that she is not interested in the $5 crowd.  She has been in the business for a while and understands that it takes a quality cover.  That editing a book is mandatory.  Formatting that works on every device is essential and the books she is choosing to represent have already passed some sort of vetting.

For those of us who can do all of this ourselves, or shop around and can get the same quality product for much less it does look like a bad deal.  However it might be a great deal for someone who has a great book that just got dropped because the shelf space at Barnes and Noble had to make room for LEGOs and they have no time/desire to learn html, figure out what a CSS is or how to fix NOX errors in an ePub.  Let alone manage 6 different dashboards with different rules and requirements like having to have a mac to publish on Apple.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, I've read through the whole thread (though not the original article, that's next), and what strikes me is that most of the judgments expressed in this thread, including in the subject of the thread are based on something that we don't know: whether the 15% charge is for life or not. People are making judgments based on the 15% being a "charge for life" and yet, it's been said in the thread, that is not said in the article. Lots of suppositions and guesses are being made here, not a whole lot of facts.

Off to discuss this thread in the smoke filled admin caves. Back in a bit. Y'all behave, okay? 

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> I wondered why my ears were burning. Ah, the treasures you find in your Web site's analytics.  In any case, some things:
> 
> 6. I won't comment on my shop's pricing, except to say that: we believe that making ebooks is a craft; we don't use any automatic Word-to-ebooks software; we produce clean XHTML and design with custom CSS; we test the Kindle books we make on every Amazon device from Kindle Keyboard forward (as well as with the Kindle apps), and we test ePubs on Nook Color tablets forward (as well as on iBooks, and Kobo and Sony devices); and our production processes and tools---for both ebook and paper design---are comparable to what's found in major publishing houses. Many authors on our roster feel that these things are worth paying for. We understand that not everyone feels the same way.


Rob,

I snarked a little bit at Jane Dystel's exaggerations (implying her agenting clients were beneficiaries of her eBook services, for example), but that's about it.

The thread has taken a non-beneficial turn, though, in terms of the snarkiness directed your way.

I do contract work formatting books when I'm not writing, so I know the market and what is involved.

The company I work for has prices a bit below yours at 52 Books, but above the automated "I'll format your books for $10" services that some people settle for.

At the risk of taking an unpopular position, I'll say that after taking a look at your site and list of services, your prices don't seem to be all that bad, or even among the most expensive I've seen.

Like you, I agree that a well-formatted book, either in print or eBook, is a genuine craft if it's to be done well. Using the right tools, striving to keep up with those tools, ensuring as much as one can a good-looking eBook across a wide swath of devices and generations of those devices, takes more actual work than a "format your book for $25" service that runs a manuscript through an automated macro or something.

Invariably, the folks who choose those low-cost/no-cost services get what they pay for. A lot of folks here are just learning the craft and cringe at anything that costs more than the bare minimum.

But a lot of folks appreciate professionalism, too, and learn that sometimes, even if a bit more money needs to be invested, that level of work is worth paying a bit more. And we have loads of members on various places along that path.

I think it's a great thing, that there are ultra-cheap services to get those new to the craft off to an easier launch on their career, as well as slightly more expensive services for those who want a better level of work done on the formatting of their books, or the covers the pay for, or whatnot.

One size does not fit all. Those who offer services ultra-cheap are helping those without more money to spend, and generally do good work for the money paid.

Those who charge more, deliver more value generally speaking--or they don't last.

There's room here for everyone along that spectrum, I think. Hopefully we all learn from each other.

Sorry that you've received some unwarranted flack on these boards, but welcome to Kindleboards nevertheless.


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## CarlG (Sep 16, 2012)

I was kind of surprised to read another agent, the great Hugh Howey's, Kristin Nelson, chime in with a link to Jane's post and saying she would could see herself giving every answer Jane gives.

http://pubrants.blogspot.com/2013/01/agenting-in-2013.html

So yeah, does Jane (and Kristin) mean 15% for life, for project managing the launch of the book and subsequent bookkeeping?


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2013)

Just to clarify my position on...well...everything 

*On Dystel:* I'm all for more distribution options for authors. Competition is a good thing, as it forces existing vendors to up their game. But from reading all of the information available, Dystel is *NOT* offering a distribution services. She is interjecting herself as an unnecessary middleman and simply charging authors 15% for her to upload files to Smashwords. Further, she continues to promote herself as an agent while steering some clients into her self-publishing service. While it would be difficult to conceive of a seasoned KB member falling for this, those of us who spend time "out in the wilds" on other sites understand EXACTLY how her service will be interpreted by star-eyed newbies. The unstated implication is that she will continue to try to get you a "real" print deal while earning money off of your digital sales for effectively doing nothing. There is an enormous conflict of interests here. Her 15% "project management" fee is the same as her agent fee. If she can collect 15% from you just by uploading a file to Smashwords, what motivation does she have to do the "heavy lifting" to get you a trade publishing contract (particularly in light of some of the language on her blog where she all but claims print is dying). The conflict of interest is obvious.

*On 52 Novels pricing:* I understand the entire "you get what you pay for" mentality. I get the comparison between the Mercedes and a Yugo. But in most cases, authors aren't publishing "Mercedes" books. They are publishing popcorn books that are going to be sold for $2.99 or less to a demographic that is not going to notice how fancy-smansy the formatting is. Charging $60 for a Smashwords-ready file, and not even GUARANTEEING that the file will get through the meatgrinder, is excessive. I'm sorry. It is. If I pay someone $60 to prepare a 80,000 word file for Smashwords, I expect it to work. Otherwise, what in the blue hell am I paying you for? Authors shouldn't just look for the cheapest service, but they should select the service that is most *cost-effective* in terms of what they are actually selling. The prices are fine for someone selling a higher-cost book to a more discerning market that is going to notice the difference.

I did a review of many of the books listed on D&G's Smashword page and downloaded samples. Nothing I saw appeared all that different from any other file. If D&G is sending those books to 52 Novels or a similarly priced service, she is doing those authors a DISservice by pushing them into more services that they actually need.

I often recommend other authors to some of the artists that I have used. One of those artists charges upwards of $300 for a book cover (not photo manipulation, but original art). I love her work, BUT I would not recommend her to someone looking for a cover for a 10,000 word short story they are going to sell for 99 cents, because what she offers is more cover than that author needs. (I'd instead direct the author to some of the service providers here on KB). But if someone came to me with a project that was 200,000 words and was going to be published in both print and digital and was a major release for the author, I'd recommend Sanjana in a heartbeat. (And I make these recommendations for free, not 15% of anything). If you are going to claim "project management" of a book, then that should mean directing the author to the services that are most cost effective for what the author is actually doing. Not the "most professional with the professional price tags."


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

CarlG said:


> I was kind of surprised to read another agent, the great Hugh Howey's, Kristin Nelson, chime in with a link to Jane's post and saying she would could see herself giving every answer Jane gives.
> 
> http://pubrants.blogspot.com/2013/01/agenting-in-2013.html
> 
> So yeah, does Jane (and Kristin) mean 15% for life, for project managing the launch of the book and subsequent bookkeeping?


I don't know about Jane, but I'm a client of Kristin's, and when she was setting up her platform, we sent her contract back and forth seven or eight times until we were both satisfied.

Kristin has two options for her clients.

Option one: The agency pays for everything except developmental editing. In this case, the author agrees to a term of liaison of 2 years. The author can still ask the agency to pull the book from any and every venue if for some reason they don't want to continue--they just can't republish it themselves until two years have passed. And the contract states that even though the agency paid for the cover art, copy-editing, etc, the author owns the digital files, and so has literally nothing to do to get upload-ready files.

Option two: The agency pays for nothing. In this case, the author can post the file wherever they want, whenever they want, and just upload their books to places the author can't reach on her own.

This is what I do. I do all the work and get 100% of everything from Amazon, B&N, and anywhere else I can upload myself. My agent uploads to Overdrive, so that my book is available to libraries and Google Plus and Ingrams. She uploaded a book to Kobo for me, back when you really couldn't get on Kobo through Smashwords and before KWL opened.

She gets 15% of the revenue from those venues where she uploads me and those venues only, and only for as long as I think it's worth my while to keep my books there. There is literally no term of liaison for option two. So this is not "15% for life"--it's 15% for only as long as it's worth my while to be on those venues.

I have no idea what Dystel is doing. It's already obvious that her exact implementation is different from Kristin's.


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

I just can't imagine how any writer/self-publisher can be so disinterested in their own business, livelihood, and life (and the creative aspect may be the most valuable when all is said and done--certainly not the money) that they happily turn over entire chunks of it to other people who will never care as much as the writer, no matter their status or experience.

THERE IS NO LIFE WHERE A WRITER "JUST WRITES." 

I am not sure there ever has been. Shakespeare had to clean up after the plays. I don't know what Salinger did, but he needed time to write and royalties from only one bestseller will usually not keep someone alive for decades, nor pay health insurance. I think we can all agree that Hugh Howey is one of the great author success stories of 2012. Ask Hugh how much of his time is "just writing." Ask Amanda Hocking, if anyone has heard from her in the last year. Ask EL James.

It's ironic, but Dystel was a significant part of my decision to dive fully into self-publishing. We had a couple of phone conversations and she was mainly interested in setting me up with a ghostwriter for some celebrity type, probably a horror movie bigshot. (It would shock you how common this is--if you think Patterson is obscene, there are more than a few name authors not writing their own books anymore--although some have now been shamed into mentioning the real author in small letters on the cover.) At any rate, I sent her The Red Church and then subbed one of my OWN manuscripts and I probably still have the response somewhere and it was like "I don't think we can sell this in the current market blah blah blah." The next sub came back with an email that sounded like a form rejection--and this was amusing/insulting because it was SHE that called ME in the first place. Likely it was just because the book sucked, but I discovered I didn't need people like that in my life or my career.

At any rate, I had only self-published a couple of books at that time and the bell went off: "These clowns don't know how to sell a book, but I do. I've already proven it." And off I went, full speed ahead, the best decision of my writing life.

That said, I think she may have brokered John Locke's (apparently massive failure of a ) paper distribution deal. But claiming John Locke in your stable is not exactly a ringing endorsement for anyone who isn't still reading blog posts from early 2011. Joe Konrath was by and large her major education on self-publishing. And you know why? Because he said "No." And then he said "Can you get my books back from those a**holes in NY?" 

After that, I don't know Dystel's reasoning, because I had a former agent try to do the same thing--become my publisher (after I've already done all the work of laying a real foundation.) This was the same agent that wanted me to ghostwrite a big political thriller for big money for some big name--and I was blessed to be in the position to not even ask "How much?" I just said "No, thank you." Later, the agent was like "Oh, we might get them anyway because we are trying to get your stuff from your other former agent." And I didn't say anything, because I know those deals and if I self-publish, NO ONE EVER GETS A DIME BUT ME. 

Another thing is agents (and far too many established writers) keep preaching that this is the only way you will get foreign or movie deals. That is crap. I set up a movie deal on my own (although it did later have an agent attached because of prior contract)--yes, it is for The Home, and the script has gotten before big names. Certainly a longshot but not that much longer than any deal, big or small. It happens.

I have published about 20 foreign editions on my own, and currently have a Top 100 bestseller in German (admittedly, it is 0,99 EUROS, but that's the point--I could price it so because I wanted to.) And it happened organically. There was no alchemy--it was a logic puzzle and it was solved. Not completely, but it wasn't a special magic that only agents can conjure. And I have only just begun. Once I figure out what I am doing, I will have more fun than ever. I love doing it all. I love owning my business and playing in my sandbox, and letting others play in and not fight over the toys or take away the sand.

I often say the worst thing that ever happened to my writing career was getting published. If you want to hitch your wagon to their star, fine, but you'll likely just to squish in their road apples and get stinky feet. 

I don't mind people selling shovels to miners in the gold rush, because when it's over, you still have a shovel--it's the false claims, forged deeds, and erroneous maps that are morally obscene.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Umm. Some of us have day jobs. Long hours day jobs. Some of us have time to write at certain hours because of being mommies.  It is not all about "being disinterested in (our) business." I run a roofing company, do roofing work, and write. The reality is, sometimes, I don't want to sit around messing with coding and formatting when I want to write. I learned how to do it because I couldn't afford paying anybody and because I wanted to learn how, but as more markets open up, the more I can't take care of my writing life 100 percent. So, I'm thinking of delegating. That doesn't mean I stopped "caring."

Everyone's writing careers take different paths. What may not work for you may be what the writer needs at that stage of his/her career, whether it is choosing to be in SELECT or to have an agent find people to upload files for him/her.


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

You have a great brand and catalog and success, Gennita. I'd submit that if you did take a more hands-on approach, you'd quickly have enough money to buy you more time to spend on your business. I fully believe that.

I'll bet you learned the price of shingles and metal roofing and the time/cost/labor (and yes, I have done a bit of roofing myself--it is not pleasant in certain months.) I doubt if you call up some corporation and say "How can I run my roofing business? Do you have a blueprint and a franchise? How about a client list?" There is not a lot of difference in the principles of it. In fact, you already have a huge advantage over 99 percent of other writers, aside from an established catalog--you have business experience.

I also know that one size doesn't fit all. I worked full-time for 15 years while I was a writer, making these mistakes which I now call learning experiences. But it's not a coincidence that the more I put in my business, the less I needed other people OR another job. I not only think it's possible for you, I think it's probable.

I truly wish you good fortune however you go.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Scott,
Yes, it's experience. But one must start somewhere. Sure, I know a lot more about business and self-employment than most people, but that also makes me aware of what I am capable or not capable of and how large I want to go as I age ever so ungracefully (not fun climbing that ladder a dozen times a day at my age  ).

I love both my jobs but I do think they make control freaks of us, in the long run. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but there is a reason why small businesses either choose to stay small (and still profitable) or grow big (and be a corporation/global/franchise/etc. depending on its success).

Like I said, it all depends on the individual need and each person brings her strengths and weaknesses to the table. It's like someone coming to me asking me roofing questions because they want to save money doing their own roof. I have to gauge what they know (experience level) before actually dispensing any advice/tips. If they don't even know technical terms of the roof line, I know they aren't going to be able to get the job done. For some writers, not all, this is where they are.

Thank you for the well wishes and best to you too. I'm off to the roofing job! Rain stopped.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Honestly, no need for _your ears_ to be burning. Besides saying your fees are outrageous compared to other professional vendors who service indies, nobody was actually questioning YOU. You can be priced out of market and still run an ethical business. Unless you are giving the agent a kickback or special consideration for sending you business, you aren't doing anything inherently wrong.
> 
> At the heart of this issue is the ethics of an agent simultaneously representing authors to publishers AND charging fees to "help" them self publish.
> 
> ...


This.

Rob, you obviously provide excellent work, and you've found your business partners and you're happy with them. Nobody is faulting you here, I think, except that your prices are higher than a lot of other formatters. No one has a serious issue with you.

The rest of what's being discussed looks awfully shady. I wish Dystel would show up in this thread and explain to us how it's not.


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

> On 52 Novels pricing: I understand the entire "you get what you pay for" mentality. I get the comparison between the Mercedes and a Yugo. But in most cases, authors aren't publishing "Mercedes" books. They are publishing popcorn books that are going to be sold for $2.99 or less to a demographic that is not going to notice how fancy-smansy the formatting is. Charging $60 for a Smashwords-ready file, and not even GUARANTEEING that the file will get through the meatgrinder, is excessive.


Not offering extended support for Smashwords files is not the same as not guaranteeing it will work. With SW, there's too much outside our control to be able to guarantee everything related to the product. If it's our fault, we can fix it. If it's because Meatgrinder's acting a little hinky that day or because someone on the review team at SW goofed up, then there's not much we can do. In those cases I might as well be guaranteeing your car will start in the morning, too. In any event, we made more than 300 Smashwords files last year, to my knowledge, all of them passed autovetter and a human review, and now happily live in the Premium Catalog.

That said, every SW file we make is uploaded to our test account to ensure the NCX is properly made, that the output is more or less comparable to our epub and Kindle design, and that it passes autovetter before it's delivered to the author (this is as far as we can go without triggering a review by someone at SW). But even then, our experience has shown that what worked as expected in our tests isn't always the case when the author uploads it. As stable as Meatgrinder is in 2013, it's still a software product that can break between the time we deliver and when the author uploads. Believe me, Meatgrinder breaks, even if for just a few minutes. A lot. And because Meatgrinder is not _our_ software, we're not in any position to be its technical support.

There are also a few cases---especially around the end of the year---when an inexperienced human vetter gets something we've done and rejects the file. It's technically non-compliant with the style guide, but is an edge case that should be compliant. (When that happens I send an email to Mark and he approves it.) And because the file is editable, authors often make changes to them before they upload... you'd be surprised at how many people decide to remove "Smashwords edition" from the copyright page and then come back to us wondering what went wrong.

Lastly, not offering extended support is not the same as being complete tools... our design staff is thoughtful, enjoys doing good work for their authors, and wants them to succeed. By the time they deliver the SW cut (it's the last thing we make), they've worked with an author quite a bit. If that means they spend some time troubleshooting an issue that's come up that's not really in our wheelhouse, then that's what they do. After all, the error messages from SW are about as clear as a cloud and to an author eager to publish the last thing they dreamed of getting was a nastygram about their book.

As for our pricing for SW files, it's set on our base hourly rate ($55) plus a bit extra to account for unknowns and basic troubleshooting that may be necessary after we test. We find that most novel-length books take about an hour. Most longer works take about 90 minutes. If another shop determines they can be profitable at a lower rate, then I'm happy for them and wish them success.



> I did a review of many of the books listed on D&G's Smashword page and downloaded samples. Nothing I saw appeared all that different from any other file. If D&G is sending those books to 52 Novels or a similarly priced service, she is doing those authors a DISservice by pushing them into more services that they actually need.


As I mentioned up thread, beyond just the one self-evident author, I won't reveal which authors we subcontracted for or what our role has been.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Rob-

FWIW, I formatted novels for authors at a cheaper rate of a flat $50 and no, it was not profitable for my time involved to handle the bugs and hiccoughs. After three months, I found better ways to make money for my time.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Courtney Milan said:


> I don't know about Jane, but I'm a client of Kristin's, and when she was setting up her platform, we sent her contract back and forth seven or eight times until we were both satisfied.
> 
> Kristin has two options for her clients.
> 
> ...


Now THIS makes sense! I could see myself taking such a deal. Thank you for sharing it with us!


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2013)

Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> Not offering extended support for Smashwords files is not the same as not guaranteeing it will work.


This is what it says on your website:



> In any case, we test to ensure Smashwords-ready files are compliant, but we offer no extended support should one be rejected for inclusion in either the Smashwords in-house or premium catalogs. In most cases, fixes are simple and easily corrected using the Smashwords style guide. If you're reasonably adept at using Microsoft Word and with moderate effort, you should be able to correct most anything that chokes Smashwords' Meatgrinder.


What you say here in this forum means nothing. I can only make business decisions off of the officially stated policy on your site. And on your site, it is clear as crystal that if there is a problem with the file, the author is on his or her own. I don't care if you tell me here on the forum you have 300 successful uploads. I don't care if you say here on the forum that you have in the past gone above and beyond your official policy. If what you are saying is true, then perhaps this should be changed to say something like "In the event the initial upload to Smashwords fails, we will assist the author within the scope of our ability to make sure the problem is resolved. We cannot offer extended support _after_ the initial file has been accepted, or if the author makes changes to the file."



> As I mentioned up thread, beyond just the one self-evident author, I won't reveal which authors we subcontracted for or what our role has been.


I understand that. My point was that after looking at the samples of a dozen titles, there was no discernible difference in quality between any of them insofar as formatting. Whatever "project management" D&G is offering, it is not having a noticeable impact on the quality of the books produced. None of them jumped out at me as all that better than the work produced by many of the fine service providers here at KB. Whether or not some of them may have been yours was not the point. The point was none of them were all that impressive visually compared to other ebooks I've read produced by other services.

I'm sure your technical expertise is highly useful when dealing with complex layouts and files with lots of images. But all of the samples I looked at with rather straightforward text with nothing special going on.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "I just can't imagine how any writer/self-publisher can be so disinterested in their own business, livelihood, and life (and the creative aspect may be the most valuable when all is said and done--certainly not the money) that they happily turn over entire chunks of it to other people who will never care as much as the writer, no matter their status or experience.
> "


It's easy to imagine. It happens all through the economy everyday, and it works very well. The contractors care very much about the quality of their work because that is what gets them subsequent work from both new and prior clients. The principals care enough about their business to select appropriate contractors, and set up check points and monitoring systems to manage the contract.


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

> "What you say here in this forum means nothing. I can only make business decisions off of the officially stated policy on your site. And on your site, it is clear as crystal that if there is a problem with the file, the author is on his or her own. I don't care if you tell me here on the forum you have 300 successful uploads. I don't care if you say here on the forum that you have in the past gone above and beyond your official policy. If what you are saying is true, then perhaps this should be changed to say something like "In the event the initial upload to Smashwords fails, we will assist the author within the scope of our ability to make sure the problem is resolved. We cannot offer extended support after the initial file has been accepted, or if the author makes changes to the file.""


Thanks for your input. I'm happy with what's on our Web site, happy with how I've trained my team, and happy with the Smashwords service and product we provide for what authors spend. If it's not exactly music to someone's ears, I'm not offended if they prefer to work with another shop for Smashwords cuts. I learned very early on that I can't win every job, nor should I try to.


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## Rob @ 52 Novels (Jan 8, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> FWIW, I formatted novels for authors at a cheaper rate of a flat $50 and no, it was not profitable for my time involved to handle the bugs and hiccoughs. After three months, I found better ways to make money for my time.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

scottnicholson said:


> (It would shock you how common this is--if you think Patterson is obscene, there are more than a few name authors not writing their own books anymore--although some have now been shamed into mentioning the real author in small letters on the cover.)


Why the assumption that people "think Patterson is obscene?" Scott, you're better and smarter than this. (Both as a writer whose work I've read, and as a person I encounter here in KB.)

Patterson's upfront and always has been. He made a practice from early in his career to always list his co-authors. I don't hear folks like Michael Ledwidge, Maxine Paetro, Marshall Karp, Mark Pearson, Howard Roughan, and others complaining about what collaborating with Patterson has done for their careers, either.

About the only books Patterson takes solo credit on are the Alex Cross books, and that makes sense.

What is more disturbing, obviously, are those who do the same thing, but never acknowledge it. Patterson's set an example, I think, for others with "name brand" recognition. He knows his name on a cover helps sell books. Good for him for being willing to help others.

Also having partners who do most of the heavy lifting while still getting lead credit is only a foreign concept in book publishing. In Hollywood, it's common. My favorite example is the seven-year run of BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER. Big-name (today) writers got their start writing episodes of Buffy (and, later, Angel and Firefly). Names like Drew Goddard, Marti S. Noxon, Jane Espenson, David Greenwalt, Tim Minear, and Ben Edlund, just to name people who are not only still active today, but who are pretty much a who's-who of creative forces behind many of TV's best shows lately.

Yet all of them acknowledged that Whedon got "final pass" on all their scripts, and was often responsible for the "favorites lines and moments" people mentioned after episodes aired. The show was always unquestionably a "Joss Whedon" show, no matter who handled script duties. From descriptions I've read from the show's writing team, who got their name as lead writer on a particular script was often a formality anyway, as all scripts were extensively workshopped by the entire script team.

NOTE: In the 1990s, I would have possibly committed a couple of acts of random homicide to have been given the chance to be on Whedon's team of writers. Not really, but you get the idea... 



scottnicholson said:


> That said, I think she may have brokered John Locke's (apparently massive failure of a) paper distribution deal. But claiming John Locke in your stable is not exactly a ringing endorsement for anyone who isn't still reading blog posts from early 2011.


Again, you're better than this sort of sniping, Scott. The folks who do it rarely actually read his work. They make the comments for other reasons. Locke's books are entertaining, no matter what one thinks of how he booted his career into overdrive.

Yeah, yeah, we all know he bought reviews. (And admitted it.)

But at this point, I don't care. I enjoy Donovan Creed, Dani Ripper, Emmet Love, Gideon Box, et. al. They're short, fun reads.

And after selling at the volume they sold as eBooks, the failure of overpriced novellas to move at retail is, frankly, not a big surprise.  I know of indie authors rejected by trad-pubs because "they sold too well" as indies, so there was no interest in republishing their successes. And I can't blame trad-pubs for that.



scottnicholson said:


> I don't mind people selling shovels to miners in the gold rush, because when it's over, you still have a shovel--it's the false claims, forged deeds, and erroneous maps that are morally obscene.


If I follow with what you're trying to imply, I can agree with you here.

Frankly, one of the weirdest trends in self-publishing I've encountered is the money authors seem willing to sink into overpriced "book trailers."

Personally, I've never bought a book because of some 30- to 60-second video clip on YouTube. But maybe it's just something I "don't get." Yet people who are willing to forego competent editing, or shortchange themselves on a good book cover, seem more than willing to spend hundreds or more on extravagant YouTube "commercials" for their novels because of a perceived "coolness factor," without one shred of proof that book trailers = sales.

(I mean, unless that 30-second spot is going to air during the Superbowl, and even then most indies would go bankrupt paying for such prime television real estate. And no book trailer I've ever seen is SuperBowl-worthy. None.)

Frankly, I think most people would get more views, and more sales, by doing a "funny cat" video with their own cell phone and their own cat, and then displaying their book cover at the end.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Rob-
> 
> FWIW, I formatted novels for authors at a cheaper rate of a flat $50 and no, it was not profitable for my time involved to handle the bugs and hiccoughs. After three months, I found better ways to make money for my time.


This.

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised so many people think 52 Novels is expensive. Cleaning up and formatting other people's files is a lot of work, especially when you have some that pieces their files together, uses hard returns in one section, tabs the next, and so on. The most active people here on KBWC probably produce cleaner work than the majority of those looking for a formatter. There's what, maybe 10 or 15 regular posters here with experience, and theyre also the most vocal.

My average formatting client needs a lot more work than you guys. And they don't care to learn; if they did, they wouldn't need a formatter. Everyone that wants to not pay so much for formatting should certainly learn; it's not that hard. But a lot of people simply don't want to and that's okay too.

Expecting someone to do it for them for minimum wage, or just a few bucks over minimum wage, is not valuing other people's time and effort, especially when there is a bit of skill involved. Would YOU want to do something for money you could make working at Target? At least at Target you aren't relying on others to keep business flowing, you aren't relying on someone else to give that referral, you don't have to pay the bills that keep your job existing, and you don't have to deal with all the other things that you need to do to keep a small business running. We have to buy commercial license ornaments and fonts, we have to keep software updated, and licenses, and everything else, yet people want their book formatted for $25.

I dunno, this a big part of the self-pubbing mentality that has always struck me as part of the problem when it comes to the lack of respect self-publishing gets. It feels like too many don't actually respect what it takes to do the work, but expects others to fawn over the fact that they wrote a book.

It's hard. Few people can finish writing a book. Even fewer can do it well.

But It's pretty much the same in just about every industry. It takes work to do anything meaningful, and we all want respect for what we do. Part of showing that respect is paying a fair price for the services provided. $60 for a SW file is pretty fair. It's actually more than fair. If I switched to an hourly rate for a file, the price for some would be completely out of range. Should the client, whose file is going to take me 5 hours to do (yes, I've had that client), pay more than the client who has a great writing system set up and only takes me 1 hour? Maybe. But then there'd be complaints from _them_ about how expensive it is. You can't win. You can only price for your market and try to keep it fair for everyone.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Cheryl M. said:


> To be honest, I'm kind of surprised so many people think 52 Novels is expensive. Cleaning up and formatting other people's files is a lot of work, especially when you have some that pieces their files together, uses hard returns in one section, tabs the next, and so on. The most active people here on KBWC probably produce cleaner work than the majority of those looking for a formatter. There's what, maybe 10 or 15 regular posters here with experience, and theyre also the most vocal.
> 
> My average formatting client needs a lot more work than you guys. And they don't care to learn; if they did, they wouldn't need a formatter. Everyone that wants to not pay so much for formatting should certainly learn; it's not that hard. But a lot of people simply don't want to and that's okay too.
> 
> ...


I don't consider 52 Novels' pricing to be grossly overpriced. It's actually in the middle-ground area, compared to other sites I've seen.

And I can "This." with you on the fact that, often, manuscripts come in ... in rough shape. Or that one can be 99 percent done with a job, and get an "emergency" email from a client saying they've extensively revised their book and "I hope you haven't started yet" and then expect you to do the entire job over again without an additional fee. Sometimes, more than once.

These things happen. Part of the business.

Where I see some room for debate is charging a separate fee for Smashwords. It's one way to go, but I think a "package price" works better. But there's room in the market for different approaches to such things.

But, Rob's right in this sense... Smashwords' Meat Grinder can be a real pain at times, and if one goes .doc-method, it can double manuscript-prep time, easily. I think once the bugs are out of the direct uploading of .epubs, and they add direct .mobi and .pdf uploads later this year, most folks will opt out of Meatgrinder no matter how vociferously Mark advocates for its "added value."

I format an average of 150+ books a year. I'm not paid on an hourly rate. I'm paid on a per-project basis. I can't see doing things based off an hourly rate... but if I did, I'd probably earn a lot more.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm sure your technical expertise is highly useful when dealing with complex layouts and files with lots of images. But all of the samples I looked at with rather straightforward text with nothing special going on.


This. I've read some ebooks that were absolutely gorgeous visually, such as Courtney Milan's new Brothers Sinister series. If the file contains images or embedded fonts, then I'd absolutely see paying more.

And in the case of backlist titles where you're working from a PDF or a paperback, then yes, I absolutely see the need to work with a service with a higher degree of technical expertise. But for indie-original titles in Microsoft Word where the author just wants straightforward text with nothing special, it would seem to make more sense financially for them to use a less expensive service.

I don't think anyone is saying Rob doesn't have the right to price his services at any price he sees fit. But for the average indie author, it might be quite a bit more than they'd need to spend.


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## HAGrant (Jul 17, 2011)

In 2011, 52 Novels formatted my first two books. I'd prefer to keep my privacy, but I have to say something here. 

One book had a lot of images. The other was a standard 80,000 word novel. I was looking for a formatter when I saw 52 Novels mentioned on Konrath’s site, so I contacted them.  They ending up doing wonderful work for me.

Yes, they’re pricey. Since those first two books, I’ve used other formatters who are more budget-friendly (and who’ve also done great work). I’d like to teach myself how to format, but I have a job and I’m in college, so I haven’t had time.  If 52 Novels had bargain prices, I would send everything to them. 

My experience from two projects: they’re pros. They were professional, pleasant, responsive, and reliable. There were no surprises. They did error-free work. Everything came in on deadline or before the deadline. I screwed up with one book and found a factual error after I’d published it, so I contacted them for a whole new set of documents. When I tried to pay, Rob Siders refused to take the payment. Rob is a first rate guy in my book and so is his team. If their prices fall within your budget, I would recommend them to anybody looking for quality work and peace of mind.

Holly Grant


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

HAHA, just for you, CraigInTwinCities,



> Frankly, I think most people would get more views, and more sales, by doing a "funny cat" video with their own cell phone and their own cat, and then displaying their book cover at the end.







I paid a High Price of treats for this video, I tell you. 

Apologies for taking y'all from the seriousness of the discussion.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Rob @ 52 Novels said:


> Not offering extended support for Smashwords files is not the same as not guaranteeing it will work. With SW, there's too much outside our control to be able to guarantee everything related to the product. If it's our fault, we can fix it. If it's because Meatgrinder's acting a little hinky that day or because someone on the review team at SW goofed up, then there's not much we can do. In those cases I might as well be guaranteeing your car will start in the morning, too. In any event, we made more than 300 Smashwords files last year, to my knowledge, all of them passed autovetter and a human review, and now happily live in the Premium Catalog.
> 
> That said, every SW file we make is uploaded to our test account to ensure the NCX is properly made, that the output is more or less comparable to our epub and Kindle design, and that it passes autovetter before it's delivered to the author (this is as far as we can go without triggering a review by someone at SW). But even then, our experience has shown that what worked as expected in our tests isn't always the case when the author uploads it. As stable as Meatgrinder is in 2013, it's still a software product that can break between the time we deliver and when the author uploads. Believe me, Meatgrinder breaks, even if for just a few minutes. A lot. And because Meatgrinder is not _our_ software, we're not in any position to be its technical support.
> 
> ...


People are complaining that an hourly rate of $55 plus is expensive? I was billing - and working a hundred hour week - at $128 per hour in 1978. None of our editors/formatters/graphic designers/layout specialists bill at less than au$400 per hour. The cost cutting created by online competition has spoiled many people.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Gennita Low said:


> HAHA, just for you, CraigInTwinCities,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL... now THAT might get me to One-Click...


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "The cost cutting created by online competition has spoiled many people."


Sounds like the competition is here to stay. The market has changed.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> Kristin has two options for her clients.
> 
> Option one: The agency pays for everything except developmental editing. In this case, the author agrees to a term of liaison of 2 years. The author can still ask the agency to pull the book from any and every venue if for some reason they don't want to continue--they just can't republish it themselves until two years have passed. And the contract states that even though the agency paid for the cover art, copy-editing, etc, the author owns the digital files, and so has literally nothing to do to get upload-ready files.
> 
> ...


I agree with ElHawk. This sounds like a reasonable deal.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Whole lot of speculation and not a lot of facts in this thread.  Just my two cents.

As for Kristen Nelson, I've worked with her on numerous occasions. She's been beyond professional every time.  Chalk me up as another service provider who doesn't know what sort of deal she has brokered with her clients.  I wouldn't say I don't care if my clients are getting a good deal or not - I very much do.  But I also don't see how it's my business to ask them what business arrangements they've made with the rest of their production team.


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

Craig, you are right--I make a point to present my opinions based on principles and not personalities. Something that seems like criticism of another writer doesn't help anyone--but I think I was pretty clearly attacking their methods and not their persons.

I read Patterson from early on--when he was a critically acclaimed but commercially invisible mystery writer. And those books went from excellent in craft to a hodgepodge of nonstyle. It's there in the pages, no matter what people claim--and Patterson has a certain desire to spin the story. It was pretty widely known by most everyone in publishing that he was not writing anything but outlines by the time he got huge, and the farce got so extreme that his co-authors started getting credited. Read his first and read his most recent supposedly solo effort and see if it is the same person. It's like fingerprints.

As for Locke, really, this is the Writer's Cafe--where we share info about writing and business, not our enjoyment of a specific writer (and, yes, I have read some of Locke and a lot of Patterson). Someone buying fake reviews by the bushels (and who knows what other little tricks weren't included in the "How I sold a bajillion books and can sucker you into buying my how-to as well") is not a credible example of writing success in my book, and certainly not one to be held up as why an agency's approach is legitimate. Unless this entire board is just about making money, in which case, we should all become agent/publisher/fake reviewer/ghostwriter-hirer types. 

I think the core issue is integrity. Who has it, and whose you can bank on. But the point has been made better by other people. I have no idea what other people should do anymore, so I just hope people do what makes them happy.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I'd say the product is what matters, not the production process, its staffing, or the list of credits.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

scottnicholson said:


> Craig, you are right--I make a point to present my opinions based on principles and not personalities. Something that seems like criticism of another writer doesn't help anyone--but I think I was pretty clearly attacking their methods and not their persons.


Thanks, Scott. And while I may have misread your intent, that's why I called your attention to it: because that approach didn't fit with my impression of you.

And let me shill for you for just a moment: Speed Dating with the Dead is a fun read! 



scottnicholson said:


> I read Patterson from early on--when he was a critically acclaimed but commercially invisible mystery writer. And those books went from excellent in craft to a hodgepodge of nonstyle. It's there in the pages, no matter what people claim--and Patterson has a certain desire to spin the story. It was pretty widely known by most everyone in publishing that he was not writing anything but outlines by the time he got huge, and the farce got so extreme that his co-authors started getting credited. Read his first and read his most recent supposedly solo effort and see if it is the same person. It's like fingerprints.


I discovered Patterson at an ABA Convention in Minneapolis, just as his career was starting to take off. I was working for a local press at the time, and my boss gave me a pass. I think I was browsing the Simon and Schuster table (correct me if I'm wrong on Patterson's publisher at the time) and they had pre-release galleys they were handing out of what I think was the first or second Alex Cross novel. I think it was a mass market paperback for Along Came a Spider, as well as a trade-paper galley of the about-to-be-released Kiss the Girls, around 1993/94.

I took them home with a big bag of other stuff, but they were the only ones I read. Been hooked ever since. He'd published about seven books prior to that, between 1976 and 1991. But it was the Cross stuff that hooked me.

I'm less enthusiastic about Women's Murder Club, though it had a strong start. I liked his book a couple years back where he collaborated with Liza Marklund (sp?), The Postcard Killers, and some of his one-offs like that.

Confessions of a Murder Suspect this past fall was a nice, quick read.

But still, most of what I read from him is the Alex Cross stuff... though the latest, Merry Christmas, Alex Cross, read like two novellas slapped together to form one story.

I tend to believe he writes his Alex Cross series on his own, and outlines/creative directors all his other stuff. I appreciate that he at least credits his co-authors.

Much as I enjoy being an indie, if James Patterson approached me and said, "Hey, I liked EyeCU, but I think I can help you improve. Come sign a five-book contract to co-author a new series with me, you'll make more and get your name out there and then if you want to go indie again, you can..." well... it'd be hard to say no to. Think of the exposure. Think of all the new readers I'd gain who *might* read my other stuff from before that 5-book contract, and who would continue to after.... but that's fantasy-land stuff, so I'm not holding my breath. Besides, EyeCU isn't even done yet, let alone out. 



scottnicholson said:


> As for Locke, really, this is the Writer's Cafe--where we share info about writing and business, not our enjoyment of a specific writer (and, yes, I have read some of Locke and a lot of Patterson). Someone buying fake reviews by the bushels (and who knows what other little tricks weren't included in the "How I sold a bajillion books and can sucker you into buying my how-to as well") is not a credible example of writing success in my book, and certainly not one to be held up as why an agency's approach is legitimate. Unless this entire board is just about making money, in which case, we should all become agent/publisher/fake reviewer/ghostwriter-hirer types.


Yeah, I don't defend his business practices. But I do read his stuff and am entertained by it most of the time. It's a literary burger and fries... but it's a tasty burger and crisp fries, most of the time.



scottnicholson said:


> I think the core issue is integrity. Who has it, and whose you can bank on. But the point has been made better by other people. I have no idea what other people should do anymore, so I just hope people do what makes them happy.


I think you can bank on the integrity of most people here on KB, because we kind of hold each other accountable.

Sometimes more than we should, perhaps... folks in the WC sometimes refuse to do things even trad-pubs do based on principle, which can be good, but is also like saying, "I think I can beat up Brock Lesnar, but first, let me tie one leg and one hand behind my back..."

All I mean by that, of course, is having superior ethics is great... but sometimes it can really handicap you in an already lop-sided fight!


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> All I mean by that, of course, is having superior ethics is great... but sometimes it can really handicap you in an already lop-sided fight!


Creating a false enemy to justify employing unethical behavior doesn't excuse the criminal behavior. (No, I'm not saying YOU personally have done anything, just commenting on this general mentality.)

By treating publishing as a "war" between "us versus them" you end up with innocent victims; in this case, readers and other authors. I'm not prepared to sacrifice readers just so a few drone strikes can hurt my "enemies" in the Big Six. Someone buys fake reviews, they aren't getting a leg up on the Big Six. They are misleading innocent readers. Someone creates sock puppet accounts to artificially manipulate a writing contest. They aren't hurting the Big Six. They are hurting other authors.

The publishing industry is not afraid of indie authors. They are instead sitting back and asking "How can we make money off of this group?" They don't consider us enemies or threats. At worst, we're pawns employed by their real enemy (Amazon) and at best we're an emerging market. And THIS is really what the point of this thread is. Jane Dystel is part of the industry, and she is trying to figure out how to make money on indies. The core question isn't Locke's behavior (thought you already know my opinion on that!). The core question is: should an agent simultaneously be representing authors to publishers and profiting off of authors by directing them into self-publishing? What are the professional and ethical obligations of an agent whose authors are interested in self-publishing? And does the agent deserve a single red cent if the author is doing all of the work and paying all of the bills, and all the agent is doing is effectively pointing the author at pre-selected services and uploading a file to Smashwords and KDP for you?


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2013)

DarkScribe said:


> People are complaining that an hourly rate of $55 plus is expensive? I was billing - and working a hundred hour week - at $128 per hour in 1978. None of our editors/formatters/graphic designers/layout specialists bill at less than au$400 per hour. The cost cutting created by online competition has spoiled many people.


I suspect you weren't working with indie authors selling short stories on Amazon for 99 cents each.

My point was a bit more nuanced that just the service being expensive. My point is that the service is expensive IN RELATIONSHIP to the product often being produced. I dropped over $300 on a book cover for _Post-Apocalyptic Blues_ because I needed something very specific (and it would have cost more, but the artist and I have a very good relationship because I've sent her a lot of business over the years so she gave me a break). It's a major release that I have a lot invested in. And if someone came to me looking for an illustrator and they had a major release they were working on, I would recommend Sanjana to them in a heartbeat.

But if someone came to me looking for an illustrator for a 40,000 word YA romance that they are going to be selling for less than $2.99, I'm probably going to direct them instead to one of the perfectly capable cover artists here on KB that work for much less. Because no matter how amazing Sanjana is, she is priced out of range for what THAT specific author needs.

Craig made the reference to burger and fries a couple of posts ago. La Bonnette potatoes cost £400 per kilo and (if the chefs of some of Europe's most expensive restaurants are to be believed) are the best potatoes available. I'm pretty sure, however, McDonalds isn't going to start using them any time soon no matter HOW good they are.

There is a tendency in indie circles to go "all or nothing." Either spend nothing on production, or "only the best." But the truth is that, in business, you want to get the most cost-effective for your specific product. If I was going to release _Post-Apocalyptic Blues_ in epub format (its a PDF and print product), I would most certainly want a high quality formatter to work on it because of the number of graphics, embedded fonts, and tables in it. But for a generic "popcorn book" text-only file with no special formatting needs? There is no real benefit to spending more just because more is available.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Creating a false enemy to justify employing unethical behavior doesn't excuse the criminal behavior. (No, I'm not saying YOU personally have done anything, just commenting on this general mentality.)
> 
> By treating publishing as a "war" between "us versus them" you end up with innocent victims; in this case, readers and other authors. I'm not prepared to sacrifice readers just so a few drone strikes can hurt my "enemies" in the Big Six. Someone buys fake reviews, they aren't getting a leg up on the Big Six. They are misleading innocent readers. Someone creates sock puppet accounts to artificially manipulate a writing contest. They aren't hurting the Big Six. They are hurting other authors.


Well, just to be clear, I wasn't referring to practices like sock puppets or buying reviews. 

With my comment, I had in mind other, less controversial things.

For example, some indies refuse to do endorsement quotes for each other, or review the work of others in their genre... even though, in the case of the first practice, Stephen King is a total revolving door for endorsement quotes... and in the case of the second practice, Charlaine Harris reviews three books of other writers in her genre per blog entry on her popular "Book and Blog" feature.

I have no problem if anyone wants to avoid those practices themselves... but since there are plenty of examples of both practices in trad-pub, I'm not convinced it's a black-black sin like some people claim it to be.

It's not on the level, for example, of purchasing reviews, which is clearly unethical. Or sock puppetry, which to me is pretty much out-and-out fraud.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> For example, some indies refuse to do endorsement quotes for each other, or review the work of others in their genre... even though, in the case of the first practice, Stephen King is a total revolving door for endorsement quotes... and in the case of the second practice, Charlaine Harris reviews three books of other writers in her genre per blog entry on her popular "Book and Blog" feature.


OK, I understand your point. I think this is more a misunderstanding of the difference between a blurb (like what you see on a book cover) and an Amazon customer review (which is suppose to be, well, a customer).

This goes back to my point about indies living in an "all-or-nothing" world. People go too far in either direction for the wrong reasons.

All a book blurb is, at it's heart, is one author telling his fans "Hey, if you like my stuff you may like this guy's stuff as well." And they do serve a purpose. If Stephen King tells me a vampire book is scary, I tend to believe him (even if he is a blurb slut lol). If Stephanie Meyer blurbs a vampire book and says it is scary, I take her endorsement with a grain of salt.  

The issue of reviewing books in your genre is not an ethical issue. It is an artificial construct created specifically by Amazon. The Amazon TOS is like finance law: the official rules don't generally discuss what is ethical, but what is legal. There is nothing unethical about peer review per se. The Arts thrive on peer review. Ethics come into play when you factor in INTENT. Context matters. Intent matters.

But yeah, I think we actually agree on this point then.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "OK, I understand your point. I think this is more a misunderstanding of the difference between a blurb (like what you see on a book cover) and an Amazon customer review (which is suppose to be, well, a customer). "


Difference? Both can be done in twenty words.


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