# Boasting about sales ( an indie thing?)



## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

I don't think I have ever seen a traditional author talk about how much they have earned. They just get on with it and do the work, and saying they are an author full-time is enough even if they have a book or course teaching people how to write and publish. 

However, there seems to be a growing trend in the indie market (Mostly from those who have something to sell - a course, a book, a membership etc ) to list sales made in a month or a year.

Don't get me wrong. I get they are trying to prove that money can be made as an indie but doing it over and over again? (usually around the time they are about to sell their next product) seems a little bit like someone trying too hard to impress folks or convince the marketplace to invest in their course. When reality is we know there is more to making money in this business than just writing, publishing and marketing. Doing what someone else did doesn't guarantee success. Results will vary. ( yet that part about results will vary somehow gets left out. )

The reason i mention this is because i feel for the folks who aren't making money ( like a guy who recently posted on this forum) and do all manner of things and still get no success. It must be like a kick in the face to them. So is it really necessary? Can't indie's just say... we are making a full-time living vs listing numbers. To me, if you say you earn a full-time living that gives me a clear idea. ( you pay your bills, you live etc. I don't think folks need to know hard numbers ).

Thoughts?


----------



## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

thevoiceofone said:


> It must be like a kick in the face to them. So is it really necessary?
> 
> Thoughts?


It's usually meant as a form of encouragement and is often in response to a specific inquiry by an OP. What can be annoying, but not kick in the face worthy, is the humble bragging, the "But what do I know? I just paid cash for my new house, so..."


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Deleted


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

thevoiceofone said:


> Can't indie's just say... we are making a full-time living vs listing numbers. To me, if you say you earn a full-time living that gives me a clear idea. ( you pay your bills, you live etc. I don't think folks need to know hard numbers ).
> 
> Thoughts?


Data offer clarity.

A "full-time living" in Alabama is different than a "full-time living" in NYC.

Moreover, those who make more are assigned more authority. An author making $1 million per year deserves more cred than an author making $50,000 a year.


----------



## MyCatDoesNotConsent (Sep 11, 2017)

Я не согласен с новым TOS


----------



## Ryan W. Mueller (Jul 14, 2017)

I occasionally share my numbers so that people can laugh at my pathetic sales. Not really, but they aren't anything to write home about.

I do feel inspired when I see people sharing their successes. It gives me hope that I can do it, too. Without that hope, I would probably give up.


----------



## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

I regard self-reported sales / income figures with the same skepticism I'd give to a college lad's count of his sexual encounters.


----------



## m123xyz (Oct 16, 2015)

I've seen a variety of sales posts. of course there's lots of 500k a year etc but there's also a lot of people taking about how to get from $10 a month to paying the phone bill, then maybe the rent. 

I try to find people making salaries e.g. 30-75k not so much the people with 100 books and millions in sales. Though the tactics from them is super helpful.

Overall I think it's about encouraging/teaching people. Showing there's an actual way to make a living writing books and trad authors don't/can't really share that. It doesn't matter to me that trad author X made 500k or whatever because there's no way to replicate it unless I get a five figure book deal. I can maybe make 40k and not have to work at dunkin donuts (nothing against them I love donuts!) if I follow the leaders and work ass off.

the downside is it sucks sometimes to try things that other find success with and not sell any books. it gets frustrating and its freaking hard. I'm terrified I'll spend a year write a septology, hire editors, have pro covers, build email lists, do super stacked promos etc etc etc, and still only sell a few hundred books. or sell a few thousand but be underwater cause  I spent twice that much in development/marketing.


----------



## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

While I don’t think people *shouldn’t* post about high sales - seriously, post whatever you want - more and more I do feel a bit dispondent about the whole thing. I don’t expect to have had high sales, but I would have liked at least some. Just a little juice to be encouraged. The high sales stories tend to make me just want to check out, because I feel like I have worked so hard to produce what I’ve produced, to no avail.

I’ve got 3 books written and ready to be published, but I kind of feel there is no point. To be honest I also feel like I’ve wasted a lot of money and shouldn’t have bothered in the first place. My partner insists I haven’t, because of the “what if?” factor, but I don’t know.

But that’s just me. I guess a good solution would be just to self censor and not read the success stories.


----------



## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

thevoiceofone said:


> I don't think I have ever seen a traditional author talk about how much they have earned.


Jim C. Hines and Kameron Hurley immediately come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

One reason for sharing numbers is to give a realistic picture of what is/isn't possible.

I've shared broad numbers on occasion on my blog and the reason I do so is because I'm thrilled when I hit a new milestone and my dog doesn't care and my mother doesn't have any frame of reference. Writing is a lonely business and so sharing that with folks who get it and maybe appreciate how hard it was to get to that point helps.

(I do have writing advice books but I assure you that my sharing my numbers is not the way to sell them because in indie world "I made five figures doing this" is laughable to too many even though I can personally attest to how much effort it takes to get there when you don't write what's popular.)


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

thevoiceofone said:


> I don't think I have ever seen a traditional author talk about how much they have earned. They just get on with it and do the work, and saying they are an author full-time is enough even if they have a book or course teaching people how to write and publish.


I self and traditionally publish, so ...

There are a couple of reasons we don't talk about earnings.

First of all, our advances are frequently made public via a service like Publishers Marketplace or Publishers Weekly. And second, we don't know how many books we've sold until we get royalty statements, whenever that is.

Self-pub is an entirely different animal. We have an abundance of information and we like to share.


----------



## abgwriter (Sep 12, 2015)

I actually always look forward to sales figure posts (they used to be much more common a while ago, but have since dried out, probably because of threads like this), not only because they are inspirational and instructive but because they are the proof that it works. I don't feel like a slap in the face if I don't get the same results everybody is different. I think you are forgetting something in your argument (that a lot of Indies seem to do). Not all writers make money. Actually, scratch that, the majority of writers don't make money. It's just like how the majority of athletes don't have AllPro million dollar contracts and the majority of musicians and singers don't have a big record deal. That is true across all creative and aptitude feels. There seems to be this misconception that indie writing is some kind of money-making machine and anyone can get on the big wagon. No, indie writing is an avenue just like trad-publishing to get your book in front of readers but it's not a magic door that automatically means it becomes a worldwide success. The only different thing is that with indie, nobody is barred at the door, anyone can come through, but what happens once you are there is anybody's game. 
With all the uncertainty the indie market has as it is, it's only those select authors who still are helpful enough to post their sales figures that make it seem worthwhile.


----------



## m123xyz (Oct 16, 2015)

RightHoJeeves said:


> While I don't think people *shouldn't* post about high sales - seriously, post whatever you want - more and more I do feel a bit dispondent about the whole thing. I don't expect to have had high sales, but I would have liked at least some. Just a little juice to be encouraged. The high sales stories tend to make me just want to check out, because I feel like I have worked so hard to produce what I've produced, to no avail.
> 
> I've got 3 books written and ready to be published, but I kind of feel there is no point. To be honest I also feel like I've wasted a lot of money and shouldn't have bothered in the first place. My partner insists I haven't, because of the "what if?" factor, but I don't know.
> 
> But that's just me. I guess a good solution would be just to self censor and not read the success stories.


I feel you. But also had to say I'd kill to have 3 books ready to go! I'd kill to have 2 books! Not sure what goals are etc but that's awesome. I'd recommend researching marketing etc as best as possible before putting them out to maximize visibility. You might have done this. My main point... three books ready is freaking awesome.


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I think trad authors don't share as much for a few reasons:

1. I bet it's discouraged by publishers - for the same reason bosses don't like staff comparing pay packets.

2. Many trad authors earn less than people assume because of crappy discount clauses or lower than expected royalty rates/advances/etc.

3. I'd argue too that it's not the culture as much. Trad is a scarcity model. Indie is abundance. Trad is many people chasing limited slots. Indie has a bit of that maybe with visibility chokepoints and the like, but we don't normally consider a genre colleague as competition (often the opposite in fact). So sharing is less anathema to us. Not just money, but tactics and so on.

Plus as others pointed out Joe Konrath and others established a culture early on in 2010 or 2011 of sharing results - and the motive was too convince people that the ebook market really was taking off and that self-publishers could actually make money.

Plus... data. Who could be against that?


----------



## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Tradpub authors traditionally pointed to certain measures, such as simply "getting published." Getting published by Random House or Houghton Mifflin was much bigger than getting published by Podunk, Inc. (with apologies to Podunk). Having a story in Playboy (back in the day they published notable fiction) or some other national mag was prestigious. People assumed they got money commensurate with the prestige (a shaky premise, but better than nothing).

With indies, especially for those with good sales but few awards, how else do we benchmark ourselves but by sales?

Now, bragging in any form annoys me, but I've posted approximations of my own data and sales in some threads here when the time seemed right. What tends to annoy me is the FB posts or new threads that just say "Squee! I'm #1 in (fill in the blank)" or whatever. You don't see top authors like Amanda doing that much, if at all, because they could do it once a week if not more often, and such a thing would rapidly turn from encouragement into feeling like a putdown, IMO.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

dgaughran said:


> Plus... data. Who could be against that?


The data presented by Dataguy recently was a total eye opener for me. It showed the stats being put out by the Trad people as not only being totally wrong, but totally opposite what they were saying.

One thing the people posting their next level up screenshots from Book Report do, is encourage people that they can take a bigger slice of a hugely growing market.

Those making 6 figures a year, or even 7, are showing people what can be done. Each level down is showing how happy they are to be moving up, and affirming they want to move up again.

Most of the time, it's not boasting.

Occasionally it is, but they are easy to spot.


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

One person's 'boasting' is another person's version of being 'self-effaced'. 

I ignore what others post about sales, for the most part. 

I'm more concerned with my own universe. I have a certain amount of sales. The actual numbers are no one else's business. I sell enough to know what I'm doing right, and enough to figure out what more I need to learn if I want more sales than I am getting. If I actually want to do that.

I went into this thing under the premise that some sales are better than no sales at all, and everything beyond it is gravy.


----------



## The Fussy Librarian (May 3, 2011)

A month or two ago, Jeff Bezos said that 1,000 KDP authors made more than $100,000 last year. 

I wonder if there are 1,000 traditionally published authors who made $100,000 in 2017 ... My gut says yes, but I bet the number is not substantially larger.

Says a lot about how much of the market indies have captured in just a decade.

Jeffrey


----------



## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

There is boasting to make oneself seem more grandiose -- and then there is sharing information about what is possible and how to get there.  I am grateful to see posts from some of the more successful authors on this board because they provide a template for what is possible. I am equally grateful to see less successful people sharing their minor successes (and sometimes failures) as it puts a realistic face on this industry.


----------



## Jenwrites (May 12, 2018)

I'm OK with people posting their numbers, but what I really want to know is how they got there. I realize not every method works for every person. Still, it helps to have others share what they are doing, and I appreciate this board and the willingness of its members to be so transparent.


----------



## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

Writing is not a good career for the thin-skinned, is it?

I've found life is much more joyful if I'm happy for other people's happiness. Bitterness and resentment haven't ever done me any good. I'm happy to hear the success stories, even when I don't/won't do exactly what those writers are doing. (I hate marketing, I can't write romance, so a lot of it doesn't apply to me. But still I like to hear about it.)

My trad pub contracts have non-disclosure clauses in them, which I suspect is common. Other trad pubbed people are making so little, they're embarrassed to share the figures. Indies, being their own publishers, can share as much or as little as they wish. I think it's kind of people to share methods that work for them. They don't have to. Unless they're pedaling yet another scheme that they're charging for, it doesn't help them to share. It costs them time and helps people willing to learn. Instead of "boastful" I see that as "generous."

And I dearly miss quarterly Author Earnings (a big cost for those two successful writers, volunteering money and expertise and time to inform us all, generosity personified...and insulted too often, proving again, I suppose, the old adage that no good deed ever goes unpunished.)


----------



## Overworkedmum (May 28, 2018)

In reply to this post......l was too scared to ask but l'd be facinated to hear how much everyones making from their books.....as well as how many books it took to make that amount and in what genres?? Especially anyone from UK like me? 
I know everyone's different and what brings in sales for one person won't necessarily bring it for another, but l'm just starting out and l love to hear peoples success stories. I know it may not happen for me, but it gives me something to dream about. I don't aspire to make a full time living out of writing but l would be really chuffed to make a decent bit of extra money to help with some debts 😯 
Have wanted to write for years, had a few short stories published in my 20's and then life, kids, studying and " a proper job" got in the way, but feel it's reached that now or never moment. If I don't try, I'll never know!


----------



## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

I appreciate the numbers and what they did to achieve that, like which promos they ran, etc. I see it as helpful, not boastful. 

I always got the feeling that trad pub authors don't have a lot of specific data since they aren't the publishers. Hence, they wouldn't have a lot to share like number of books sold, earnings that week. Confidentiality agreements would also squelch any sharing. We are the publishers so we have all the numbers plus we know our own marketing strategies. I doubt trad pubs know or care about that. They are most likely busy writing.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

notjohn said:


> I regard self-reported sales / income figures with the same skepticism I'd give to a college lad's count of his sexual encounters.


I used to think everyone was lying about how much they made until I started seeing my bottom line steadily go up and up. I don't normally mention how much I've made, but let's just say it's half as much as the highest mentioned above. It took six years to make it. However, I admit that hearing success stories in the beginning made me feel bad - envious probably, no outright jealous, no I think I felt pitiful. So I can see the OPs point. Marti


----------



## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Many want to be the 500-lb gorilla. The "size matters" mentality. And open discussion groups are like open mics at karaoke bars. It mostly comes across as boasting to me. If an author's books are selling well, and if I'm interested in the genre, I'll know about them. I'd much rather read your writings than your bottom line.


----------



## Guest (Jun 2, 2018)

Anarchist said:


> Moreover, those who make more are assigned more authority. An author making $1 million per year deserves more cred than an author making $50,000 a year.


Really? Are you, of all people, really saying that money = credibility? Because I know a whole lot of people who make a whole lot of money but have zero credibility. Heck, there are a few people I have the displeasure of knowing personally that make five times what I make that I wouldn't trust asking for the time of day. Let alone a business question.

I think sharing information is great as it helps provide data for making decisions, but all information needs to be considered IN CONTEXT. And make sure we are comparing apples to apples. Even in the case of an author making $1,000,000 a year versus $50,000 a year, there are a lot of ways that might not be as clear cut as you think. If that $1,000,000 is actually gross sales and that $50,000 is net revenue, that is a whole different conversation. Is that is $1,000,000 in GROSS sales of a 99 cent book on Amazon, that equals a gross income of $350,000...which is AMAZING income and nothing to sneeze at. But is that from one book, or fifty? And have we deducted all of the related costs of producing the book?

It is sort of like the games the trade pubs used to play with the bestseller lists. Back in the day (and still mostly true today), the bestseller list was based on GROSS SALES to retailers, not net sales to consumers. On average, bookstores return up to 40% of the books they purchase for resale. So in reality, that One Million Seller? Actually only net sold 600,000 copies. Which is still a LOT of books, but not as impressive of a number of the magical 1 million.

The point being, any numbers should be viewed with a grain of salt. Unless you can be sure what those numbers really represent, a lot of it is just that...numbers. Some authors, like Phoenix, do an incredible job of providing hard data and context when presenting numbers. But others may not be as transparent. And even if they are, it may not apply to you.

It is very dangerous to adopt a "he who has the highest number wins" approach to business.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Nope, the trad pub authors never tout themselves. "NYT Best Selling Author. Over one million books in print!"

But if you only made 25 cents each off those 1,000,000 books in a twenty-five year career and never quit your day job as a janitor, it really doesn't matter much, does it? 

A friend of mine's dad published 45 books through a large publishing house and never made over $50K a year, and that included his $30K government job.


----------



## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

sela said:


> I'll play.
> 
> As someone who has posted my sales occasionally, here's my reasoning.
> 
> ...


I think these are the reasons - author feels happy and want to inspire others...


----------



## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

brkingsolver said:


> Nope, the trad pub authors never tout themselves. "NYT Best Selling Author. Over one million books in print!"
> 
> But if you only made 25 cents each off those 1,000,000 books in a twenty-five year career and never quit your day job as a janitor, it really doesn't matter much, does it?
> 
> A friend of mine's dad published 45 books through a large publishing house and never made over $50K a year, and that included his $30K government job.


They don't need to tout themselves--their publishers typically do it for them. I see plenty of bestseller notices on book covers and in bios, probably in both cases suggested by the publisher, not the author. A reader who doesn't ever look at the bestseller list directly could probably still correctly name several bestselling authors.

Another tendency that amuses me is making the author name so big in some cases that it almost completely blocks the underlying cover image. It would look like hubris to me--except I know that was almost certainly a publisher choice.


----------



## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

I have seen the occasional instance of a successful author using their numbers basically to insult others - in an 'I'm right and you're wrong because I made X' kind of way, but for the most part, it's more polite. It's useful to hear what's possible - especially with explanations of how they got there.

I've never had numbers worth bragging about, and I'd be embarrassed to post them here (many of you will have earned more this month than I have this year,) but in other groups I've shared some sales numbers - mostly to highlight the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of something I did.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> Nope, the trad pub authors never tout themselves. "NYT Best Selling Author. Over one million books in print!"
> 
> But if you only made 25 cents each off those 1,000,000 books in a twenty-five year career and never quit your day job as a janitor, it really doesn't matter much, does it?
> 
> A friend of mine's dad published 45 books through a large publishing house and never made over $50K a year, and that included his $30K government job.


This. Trad published authors only make 10-15% the last I heard, and split that with an agent, so most have to keep their day jobs. It's unfair and always has been. Unfortunately, for every successful author, there are ten people (our case websites) who try to come up with ways to get their split of the money. Many of us are too gullible. That's why we need places like this to see what's new, what works, and what the next scam is.


----------



## Clementine (Jun 12, 2015)

My day job revolves around data, statistics, and assessment, so I’m totally into posts about income, big or small. I haven’t read a post in which I’ve felt that someone was just showing off, but even if they were, so what? It’s okay for people to celebrate achievements and it’s good to feel genuinely happy for them. Feeling threatened or offended by that seems petty to me.


----------



## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

What Julie said. Money does not equal cred.
I think we all know there are good books that are out there floundering and authors doing everything right but still not getting to the point that might be considered successful. Also, I really dislike the term 'six-figure author'. I know that the meaning is simply an author who earned six figures. But there is also a connotation of credibility.

I feel very fortunate to be in the position that I am today with my writing. But I remember the feeling years ago of putting out a book to crickets. Was I less credible then? No. That feeling is _harsh_ and I feel for anyone going through that at the moment. Sometimes it's a matter of finding the genre that most suits your voice and style of writing. With a dash of luck and timing and algorithms and great coffee/good chocolate. 

All that said, I think honest stats can be very helpful. Knowing what's possible can make all the difference in the decisions you make in your writing career. I know of a YA trad author who put up a blog post of her earning for two very popular YA books in her series, which was $25,000 in a year - and then she listed the high expenses of travelling to book fairs/conferences and self-publicity. Either her agent or publisher asked her to take the post down - one of the two. But at the time (2013), her earnings were an eye-opener for me.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

If somebody is trying to sell you something, you'd better look at their numbers. That is the only credibility really out there. There are soooo many indie authors making low-day-job money at writing, but touting themselves as bestsellers to sell their insights. (Being #1 in Dark Horror with Vampires or whatever is not being a "bestselling author," nor is getting into the top 100 with one book via a BookBub at 99 cents, a book that immediately fell back to 300,000 post-BB.) 

I'm going to add though that some of those people selling books or courses are very good at laying out the publishing process step by step, so they may well have useful information--perhaps more useful than a truly bestselling author, one who makes great net (after advertising) money. That second author's success may be due to voice or some other aspect of writing ability that is hard to replicate. 

This business, however, like any other entrepreneurial business with big money on the table, has many unscrupulous actors. Some of them share their techniques for cash. I would look up the author's books' ranks on Amazon, and also look at how much they're advertising. If you see their books everywhere on the sponsored products list, you can bet that they are spending a lot. And, yes, Amazon isn't everything, but somebody who truly sells well enough to be listened to on that basis alone will be doing pretty well on Amazon. 

Truly bestselling indie authors tend to be really aware of the state of the industry, and how much bad advice is out there. When they share their own numbers, they are probably trying either (a) to encourage folks that it is possible, or (b) to add some credibility to their point in a world o' bad advice. Or both. Or neither. Whichever. 

Caveat emptor, and YMMV, and so forth.


----------



## notenoughcoffee (May 5, 2018)

Some people look at another's success and think, "I could never do that."

Some people look at another's success and think, "I could totally do that."

I think life is more joyful with the latter attitude than the former.


----------



## SalomeGolding (Apr 25, 2018)

sela said:


> So there. That's why some of us indies publish our numbers. So people can see and know that this dream is possible. It's not to brag. It's to show it can be done. Chasing the trad publisher dream is exhausting and depressing. I know writer friends who are still doing it, six years since I gave up that approach, and they are still getting rejections and they are sitting on a half dozen books that have been rejected.
> 
> I'm pretty glad I gave up that route for the indie one and I owe a lot to those indies who have posted their numbers, encouraging me to try.


I for one really like seeing numbers. It gives me clarityp and hoe, even though I know that I may never achieve a fraction of the heights some others have achieved.


----------



## SalomeGolding (Apr 25, 2018)

SevenDays said:


> I self and traditionally publish, so ...
> 
> There are a couple of reasons we don't talk about earnings.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing. The noobs like me appreciate it.

OFF TOPIC:
Just checked out your books and I really like your writing style. Dialogue-driven plots are my favorite form of reading crack.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I will add that I originally self-published because I read accounts by Darcy Chan and Karen McQuestion in which they shared their numbers. I knew nothing about indie publishing and did not realize it was possible to be so successful. In my turn, I shared numbers towards the beginning of my journey to encourage others as Chan and McQuestion encouraged me. I love posters like Annie B also, who started out being fairly unsuccessful, stopped listening to bad advice from low-selling "experts," and achieved remarkable success. She has detailed her numbers on a before-and-after basis. Pretty enlightening.


----------



## SalomeGolding (Apr 25, 2018)

abgwriter said:


> I actually always look forward to sales figure posts (they used to be much more common a while ago, but have since dried out, probably because of threads like this), not only because they are inspirational and instructive but because they are the proof that it works. I don't feel like a slap in the face if I don't get the same results - everybody is different. I think you are forgetting something in your argument (that a lot of Indies seem to do). Not all writers make money. Actually, scratch that, the majority of writers don't make money. It's just like how the majority of athletes don't have AllPro million dollar contracts and the majority of musicians and singers don't have a big record deal. That is true across all creative and aptitude feels. There seems to be this misconception that indie writing is some kind of money-making machine and anyone can get on the big wagon. No, indie writing is an avenue just like trad-publishing to get your book in front of readers but it's not a magic door that automatically means it becomes a worldwide success. The only different thing is that with indie, nobody is barred at the door, anyone can come through, but what happens once you are there is anybody's game.
> With all the uncertainty the indie market has as it is, it's only those select authors who still are helpful enough to post their sales figures that make it seem worthwhile.


This. All of this.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm not a huge earner so I don't share numbers very often. I did recently in a FB group but felt weird about it. I thought about deleting my comment which was on a post that asked what people were earning. Other posters were fairly negative, and while I'm not a huge earner, it makes up about half of our income every month, so more than hobby money. I didn't delete my comment because I forgot what group I posted it in.  

Like others in this thread, without J.A. Konrath posting his numbers, I don't think I would have thought about self-publishing--at least not right away. After 8 months of the agent query go round with my first book, I self-published. I have never regretted it. 

I don't know if traditionally published authors are upfront with their earnings, but I recently was invited to speak at a library event. The other author on my panel was with a small publisher. Before the 'crowd' came in, we were chatting and she brought up being in RWA and some other organization she is in. I had just that week joined NINC, so I brought that up. Right away, she wrinkled her nose and said she had heard there was a lot of drama in NINC. I wanted to ask what she meant but the event began and I never got the chance. Her attitude felt condescending, which is weird because NINC is for both traditional and indie authors. I don't know why she said what she said since she isn't in it. FWIW, I haven't seen an iota of drama in the first month of being in the group. lol


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Since when is sharing figures considered boasting?

IMO boasting is telling inflated stories to make oneself look better.

Sharing figures =/= boasting.

John Scalzi also shares his figures.

For one, sharing figures shows other people what to expect. Quite a few people go into this game with completely unrealistic inflated expectations. "Check your expectations" should be emblazoned over every book upload page out there.

Sales figures help putting the truth in claims.

As to who you should take advice from and who should be giving courses... I get so flipping tired of the refrain that you have to be a bestseller in order to have something useful to contribute. Most professional musicians don't teach music. They don't have the time. They don't have the aptitude for teaching. They don't want to teach. Many music teachers, schools or methods come with high accolades. But you won't find those people anywhere on the charts or in the major orchestras.

It seems like only in writing we hear this "those who can't, teach" refrain. Good teaching actually uses a lot of material collected from other sources and weaves it into a coherent package. It's not just one person spouting their own opinions. Good teaching is non-fiction writing, with research and collaboration. It's a craft.


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Anecdotally, I'd say many tradpub writers don't brag about their sales or income because they don't have much to brag about. I have one tradpub friend who's desperate for any freelance income and is living as best he can in between paydays. He's been on the USAtoday and Locus bestseller lists with novels and has stories in some of the major SF/F digests, and doesn't have a day job.

Another tradpub friend has been at it for 10 years with 22 novels published (mostly tie-ins with some original work) and regularly complains about his modest income. 

Neither has show much interest in indie publishing, which is their loss, I guess.


----------



## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

I find a lot of sales figures quite meaningless without further information about genre, amount of books published, length, etc... Some writers will find $50K worth of sales over six full-length crime novels as more inspirational than $500K over a 100 erotica novellas. Some writers offer a little insight with their signatures, but otherwise just claiming "six figure" incomes (or more) is kind of pointless on its own. For all I know, an author might be hugely successful writing 5K words vampire/lesbian/truck driver erotica novellas based in pre-Edwardian London.
It helps to have a lot of other information before sales figures become relevant to your own situation.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Sell 1M copies for $.99 and take home $350k. I've seen it happen. 

There was a time, way, way back, when people were actually encouraged to do that, specifically with public domain  books like War and Peace. I tell you there were hundreds of copies of every old book you could think of flooding Amazon. Then Amazon said, you can only publish those if you have new material to add. That was the end of that. However, the get-rich-quick gang didn't go away, and still haven't. We call them scammers today.

Cruelty is not saying how much we've made, it's telling those starting out that this is a dream come true job. Just write a book, hit publish, and the world is yours.


----------



## solo (Dec 19, 2017)

Sales, like everything, is subject to gravity. No matter how high they are, figures are bound to come down. I am seeing that happening now. But it's easy for people to fudge or lie about numbers to boast about their sales. Notjohn is partially right there. But some writers do share real figures which help aspiring/newbies.

So here are a lucky newbie's numbers so far, notwithstanding Notjohn's comment: For the eight months since I started with Amazon, Book Report says I sold the equivalent of 22,000 copies of the three books of my fantasy series (each released roughly two months apart. Starting October 2017). Each reached the top three spots of their bestseller subgenre. Roughly 7,000 in ebook sales and 7.5 million in KU pages. No BookBub.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

solo said:


> Sales, like everything, is subject to gravity. No matter how high they are, figures are bound to come down. I am seeing that happening now. But it's easy for people to fudge or lie about numbers to boast about their sales. Notjohn is partially right there. But some writers do share real figures which help aspiring/newbies.
> 
> So here are a lucky newbie's numbers so far, notwithstanding Notjohn's comment: For the eight months since I started with Amazon, Book Report says I sold the equivalent of 22,000 copies of the three books of my fantasy series (each released roughly two months apart. Starting October 2017). Each reached the top three spots of their bestseller subgenre. Roughly 7,000 in ebook sales and 7.5 million in KU pages. No BookBub.


Nice. Care to tell us how much you've spent on promotion, page counts and prices?


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Annie B said:


> Talking about results and sales numbers isn't boasting. Calling it boasting is a great way to stop people from sharing their data with you, though


As always, I love you.


----------



## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

cadle-sparks said:


> And I dearly miss quarterly Author Earnings (a big cost for those two successful writers, volunteering money and expertise and time to inform us all, generosity personified...and insulted too often, proving again, I suppose, the old adage that no good deed ever goes unpunished.)


Hardly seems like punishment, since they are now likely making eight figures selling the data to the industry.



notenoughcoffee said:


> Some people look at another's success and think, "I could never do that."
> 
> Some people look at another's success and think, "I could totally do that."


Great point--I have two childhood friends who became full-time-living-level authors, and I instantly said to myself, "If they can do it, I can too." It's a helpful mindset.


----------



## Forgettable (Oct 16, 2015)

.


----------



## levz (May 11, 2018)

Clementine said:


> My day job revolves around data, statistics, and assessment, so I'm totally into posts about income, big or small. I haven't read a post in which I've felt that someone was just showing off, but even if they were, so what? It's okay for people to celebrate achievements and it's good to feel genuinely happy for them.


My job doesn't revolve around data, but apart from that I'd have to agree.



notenoughcoffee said:


> Some people look at another's success and think, "I could never do that."
> 
> Some people look at another's success and think, "I could totally do that."
> 
> I think life is more joyful with the latter attitude than the former.


Also, agree. I mean, I dunno if it's more joyful but it's certainly more healthy, IMO. Would also add that some people look at other people's success and genuinely think, "cool, good for you" even if they don't also think _ I could do that_.


----------



## levz (May 11, 2018)

LilyBLily said:


> Indie authors have a different burden. After the people they meet ascertain that the authors' books are not on bookstore shelves, these people usually ask, "Are you making any money?" It's a way of politely discovering if the author has been rooked by a vanity press. It's also the common way people in the U.S. keep score. You can be engaged in a despicable business, but if you make a profit, plenty of people will ignore your moral stink. So, by saying, "I make a profit as an indie," authors demonstrate that they're engaged in a business and the business is successful. After all, nearly 100% of new businesses fail within the first three years. Your friends want to know if you'll need to surf on their couch anytime soon, and strangers simply want to know if you have a clue about how to write a book that sells.


This makes sense.


----------



## Dayseye (Mar 20, 2018)

I like hearing from fellow indies who've smashed the ball out the park. Wonderful to know it can be done, truly grateful to those who share. 

Although for every 'hey guys, I made it, and here's how I did it,' post; there's quite a few more of the 'hey guys, I'm trying but not succeeding, is it my blurb, cover or something else off?' variety.  I like those posts too, for the constructive criticism and offers of help. 

I also like the follow up posts - xyz worked/didn't work/ymmv.

So cheers to all who post about their journey, and I'm going to say, yep, it is an indie thing. And I choose to believe it is not boasting, but sharing.


----------



## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

I haven't yet read the thread, but I'll say what some probably already have said--sharing information, including sales, is one of the great strengths of Indie publishing. It's an approach premised on the theories that a rising tide floats all boats and that the industry isn't a pie with fixed dimensions that mean if you win I lose--it sees it as a market that can be grown to encompass more.

I came out of traditional publishing where, way way back, NOBODY shared information except with their very closest friends. Heck, when I first started sending out my stories, rejection slips (not letters--waste of papers--literally tiny slips of paper) were _mimeographed_ because the Xerox was still a really hi-end deal! (And that tells you how old _I _am!) Not only did you not know what earnings were possible, you didn't know what editors were difficult to work with, what agents were incompetent or crooks or both, which contract terms were egregious and getting worse, how to work with distributors, what marketing was. Nothing. You subscribed to Writers Digest and The Writer (essential sources, way back then), and read and prayed.

Some lucky few had writers groups and conferences. Ninc and RWA (formed by women romance writers, even in NINC's case!) were a HUGE step in the direction of sharing information on the premise that informed writers--wannabees and published, both--made everything better for everyone because not only did they then have a better grasp of the business, they also couldn't get suckered as easily by agents and editors and publishers who would happily screw authors any way they could. Early NINC newsletters actually carried a blue page insert available only to authors where other author members openly discussed concerns and issues. That was a HUGE eye-opener to many, including authors who'd already had years and dozens of published books under their belt. HUGE!

The Internet was a huge leap forward in information sharing. And in this business, information is vital because authors, the creators of the works that make the whole shebang profitable and make a few non-writers at the top very, very rich, are all too often extraordinarily vulnerable and ignorant (often willfully so) about the business side of things. Witness this fiasco with the embezzlement at the Donadio agency, something that could have been caught early on if only _one_ author had required and conducted a regular audit of their account, especially since even the agency itself was clearly badly managed.

Do some people post their numbers to brag. Yeah. Get over it. Whatever their motive, it's still one more useful bit of information in your bag. Most aren't bragging, though, but legitimately sharing. And the more they share, the more you know. You don't want to know it? Don't read it! How hard can that be?

And you know what? There are as many people sharing their struggles as there are their successes. Maybe more. The fact that someone might be stressing over the success stories might well say a whole lot more about the person stressing and their personal insecurities than it does about the person sharing.

If anyone doesn't want to or emotionally can't cope with a post about someone else's successes, I strongly recommend they follow my approach to dealing with all the wrinkles on my face and neck, the thinning hair, and the rolls of fat around my middle that didn't used to be there: I take off my glasses before I get in front of that bathroom mirror in the morning. That way I can look at that badly out-of-focus image in the mirror and say, "Damn, girl! Looking good!" and then I can walk out of the bathroom, put my glasses back on, and stride out into the world happily armored in the remembered image of the 35-year old me and not the reality I would have seen in that mirror otherwise.

Sometimes, if you don't want the facts, ignorance really is bliss.


----------



## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

When I was mainly in trad I knew a LOT of my friends' numbers. We generally shared more privately. The thing is, in the end it seemed pointless. Whether or not you sold was based mainly on whether, when your agent sent your book out, 1 editor got excited, or 5 did, or zero. I knew plenty of people who got huge advances in YA but few earned out. Their book was hoped to be "the next big thing" and got into a bidding war. While it was useful to keep up with what was currently hot, it was SO much more arbitrary than in indie. Plus books take forever to actually hit the market. In indie if I see a certain book take off and it's the sort of thing I would love to write, I can easily go, "Ooh, I'm bumping this one up the schedule" and have it out in a few months. Or if a marketing tactic does well, everyone jumps on it. In trad the guesswork factor is far higher, and no one is making what they're truly worth on the market. 

But I also don't think it's fair to say that someone making a million has more credibility than someone making 50k. A lot of indie writers choose to write in less popular genres or off-trope. They generally don't make AS much but I am just as interested in the experience of authors making 20k a year in a beloved niche than the ones making a million writing the hottest stuff.


----------



## tdecastro31 (Mar 2, 2018)

notjohn said:


> I regard self-reported sales / income figures with the same skepticism I'd give to a college lad's count of his sexual encounters.


    Best post ever.


----------



## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Having now read the thread, I've got a few more comments to add (in no particular order--lazy Sunday mornings are dangerous).

1. Trad pubs these days often have non-disclosure clauses in contracts (didn't use to be the case).

2. Trad pubs are waaaaayyyy way behind the information curve. They don't see royalty statements for months and months, and then the data are just lump sums with no info on the revenue curve. Did they sell 90% of that the first week, then crickets? Or is this a growing book with more and more readers finding it? (probably NOT the latter since trad print runs are low these days unless you James Patterson and shelf life is measured in nano-seconds for most.)

3. A lot of trad pubs are earning less than some indies complaining of their poor sales. Who wants to admit to that? 

4. Trad pubs often don't know how they got their sales and don't know how to replicate it. They know what THEY did, but did that make a difference? They have no way of knowing. Did they sell better in B&N or independent stores or online? Their publishers know, but they probably don't. All they'll get is a total copies sold, which is frickin useless in terms of understanding what's working well and what isn't. And their ability to adapt and improve with any book already published is non-existent. They have no say if that book will get a new cover, a new edit, a new push. Indies do, and that can make a huge difference for sales on some books.

5. The sources like Publishers Marketplace are interesting but not necessarily accurate. A number of years ago a friend who for years has been prestigiously and successfully published to good sales but not earthshaking numbers, was reported as having earned a huge advance. The report was seriously inaccurate. More, what she admitted to few, was that she never earned out her advances. But some authors are "sellable" in publishers eyes while others, who might actually be more successful if given a chance, aren't supported to the same degree because they're not as photogenic (yes! it matters!) or don't have as "promotable" a professional background or whatever.

6. Indies can post a screen shot from BookReport that's current and can, if they care to share, show the fluctuation in sales. Trads can't do that. At all.

I could go on, but I've blathered for long enough. I have another book to work on....and I can work on it knowing that no pea-brained editor cornered by Marketing's latest pronouncements on what sells is going to tell me I have to do that or change this or forget about the other thing. When this thing is done and published, it will be MY book, something I could almost never say when I was traditionally published. And whether it sinks or soars will, at least in part, be within my control, also something I could never say in the past.


----------



## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

JaclynDolamore said:


> But I also don't think it's fair to say that someone making a million has more credibility than someone making 50k.


Corrected for niche and genre, it can give you an idea of credibility as a businessperson (not as a writer per se). You can especially see this at the extremes.

If someone has ten books published and nothing ranking better than 500K on Amazon, to me they lack credibility in the business arena--especially if I instantly see their covers, blurbs and formatting are not up to snuff. On the flip side, if I see someone with ten books with great presentation and their books are highly ranked, I can surmise they are more than a mere phenomenon, that they have acquired and developed some skill in business.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

David VanDyke said:


> Corrected for niche and genre, it can give you an idea of credibility as a businessperson (not as a writer per se). You can especially see this at the extremes.
> 
> If someone has ten books published and nothing ranking better than 500K on Amazon, to me they lack credibility in the business arena--especially if I instantly see their covers, blurbs and formatting are not up to snuff. On the flip side, if I see someone with ten books with great presentation and their books are highly ranked, I can surmise they are more than a mere phenomenon, that they have acquired and developed some skill in business.


I'll often see people offer publishing advice, and check out their books on Amazon. Noticing they're in KU with ranks in the six digits, my reaction is...


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

tdecastro31 said:


> Best post ever.


I will never forget the day when the person who wrote that comment you love so much told me I was lying about my sales. At the time, he was telling all new authors constantly, as a self-proclaimed expert, that they should never, ever, give a book away for free. It was absolutely terrible advice, especially in 2013. I shared that due solely to 5-day free runs, I had made $225,000 (and over 200k net) in Months 5-17 of publishing, years before KU and solely on Amazon, with 6 books out by the end of it, coming in as a nobody from nowhere and writing nothing trendy. He told me I must be lying. I posted my bank deposit screenshot from the previous month and my author rank graph from the start (which was mostly in the top 200 starting in month 5.) He said I had probably Photoshopped it. That was the day I left that forum, where I had shared all the stuff I did and my results. I got an email the other day from somebody from that time who is now writing full time and doing very well, saying thanks for sharing back then. I helped many people rewrite their blurbs then, since that was one thing I actually felt confident about, and shared things like what promo sites had produced what results and how to choose a narrator on ACX, since that was right at the start. But being publicly accused sucked, especially since my integrity is the most important thing I have. I was out of there.

People have very little reason to boast of sales if they are not making them. Most of us in the beginning used our pen names here and linked our books as we shared what was working. It was perfectly easy to see how we were doing. We were still sometimes met with this attitude. Not by most people, but by enough. When you have written long posts about exactly what steps you took, posts about how to work with cover designers and write blurbs and stack ads and write hookier prose, and shared your sales to back those posts up, it does not take many snide comments like that to metaphorically throw up your hands. That is why I no longer put my books in my signature, and why almost none of the big names post here anymore. They belong to private groups where we share our successes and our failures and doubts, and where we all know nobody is making up their figures because why the heck would we? We want to help and get help. That is the point.

I cannot imagine the bitter and negative mindset of somebody who assumes everyone is lying, even when they are trying to help others achieve the same success they have found. So yeah. I made 590k in 2017. My net was 500k. I put 245k into a defined benefit plan. I have an assistant, a bookkeeper, and a daily housekeeper, my house is beautiful and 100% paid off, and I just got back from my annual months-long stay in Australia and New Zealand. And I have shared virtually everything I have done to get here. It is not magic. It is knowing how to write books people want to read, steady hard work, being honest about what is not working, including learning from bad reviews, and not settling for good enough in your work. The bar has been raised. You need polished prose and polished covers and something unique to offer. And yes it is harder than ever due to changes in publishing, more competition, and cheaters and scammers.

There are some excellent books out there by people like David Gaughran and Chris Fox to help people get better at all the aspects of indie publishing. Like many successful indies, I still have my own posts on my website for anybody to read. But not so much here anymore.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> I'll often see people offer publishing advice, and check out their books on Amazon. Noticing they're in KU with ranks in the six digits, my reaction is...


And strangely, the people gushing over them dont like this being pointed out.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> I'll often see people offer publishing advice, and check out their books on Amazon. Noticing they're in KU with ranks in the six digits, my reaction is...


Gives a new meaning to "six-figure author," eh?



P.J. Post said:


> There's publishing advice, writing advice and general business advice/theory - three separate things that may or may not overlap depending on the situation. So, again, the rank of one product line doesn't necessarily tell the whole story, especially since we don't know that person's goals or processes, or, just as importantly, their IRL careers and education. Someone new to self-publishing could have decades of experience in business, social media and even publishing or marketing. I always recommend letting the ideas stand on their own merit, regardless of who is offering them. If nothing else, it opens up a discussion.


That's rather the same argument that something from the BBC or The Economist should be evaluated the same as something from a fake/satire site or a random FB post. For experienced readers/viewers with lots of savvy, they have the tools to evaluate individual items on their own. For less experienced people, relying on the credibility of the source is one shortcut to determine whether they should pay attention to that item.

I have seen many newer authors led astray by confident-sounding pronouncements that on the surface seem reasonable, but upon closer examination do not hold up. For example, the oft-repeated ideas that piracy loses sales, or that giving away free ebooks is a dead-end road that can't make money (see above--I know exactly who that was, by the way, and it took years for him to grudgingly modify his stance in the face of overwhelming evidence--and who knows how much damage he did in the meantime), or that you "must" use an MFA-approved story structure for books to sell, or yada yada on and on.

The first (but not sole) test of these pronouncements should always be the source--is the source credible? Do they walk the walk as well as talk the talk? Do they have skin in the game?

There's an old adage that says don't listen to particular economists unless their personal portfolios reflect their economic theories. Walk the walk, talk the talk. The same goes for indie publishers. See if they're doing what they advise, and whether it works. Even more importantly, if you're already doing something that works, don't change your methods based on some seductive reasoning or promises--not without careful experimentation with only a small part of your list. Do not repair the unbroken. Of course, if you're not being successful anyway, then experiment away.

Bottom line, I (and most indie authors of good will, I think) hate it when they see newer folks being led astray by blowhards and big talkers who can't back up their talk.


----------



## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I feel the need to boast. Yesterday I sold 2 ebooks. So far today I have sold none, but I have given away  2 of an eBook that's on a free promo and had 374 page reads.

It's taken me 7 years to achieve that kind of success.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Money is and will remain a touchy subject to most people -- whether you're struggling to survive or just want to keep up with the joneses.  I'm sure some of what I've said has come across as bragged (and from my POV was just being so thrilled to have enough!).  It's hard to gauge tone on the internet.  


Most people seem to post money figures to help. On the other hand, a casual comment about how much money someone else made in a thread where I'm humbling myself asking for help / encouragement / advice--really can feel like a kick in the pants.


My skills are not entirely fungible.  I've written other genres and the results have not been particularly useful to me for earning money.  I don't have the capacity to suddenly take up the most popular genre, write a bunch of perfectly targeted material, and then market the fuck out of it.  That's not in my skill set and it's not likely to become my skill set.  I have my own set of limits!


Plus I've done a lot of stuff people would always tell you not to do--don't quit your day job (didn't have one), do not make two major life purchases in cash while your income is going down (but these were opportunities I needed to jump at), and "always have health insurance."  (As for that, my state is not a good place, and the current laws are evil, by, for, and of the rich!  Anyone who has a just government and a SOCIALIST medicine system has my envy!)


Things have been a struggle recently and it's humbling and even humiliating to talk about it and not have any real help for advice, except to do things I can't actually do.  Some of us don't actually have a huge subset of skills or abilities or even health to fall back on.  We're just doing the best we can.  Hell, probably most of us are doing the best we can, and sometimes we get lucky and it's wonderful!


I am very grateful for writing and what it's gotten me.  It's also been the most stressful thing I've ever done in my life, making my creativity pay.  Or getting lucky.  Or doing my absolute best and watching the results vary widely.


Capitalism sucks.  There.  I said it.  Your survival depending on the your ability to earn money according to an increasingly fickle if not downright evil "market" is not right.  And I think any conversation that revolves around money = rightness is bound to make some people unhappy and displeased.  People who fall on the other end of the scale and don't believe they have less of a desire for life and what it takes to survive it than the rich.  


But that same conversation from another's POV may just be encouragement and sharing game tactics.  I see both POVs and have felt both perspectives.


----------



## MyCatDoesNotConsent (Sep 11, 2017)

Я не согласен с условиями T.O.S.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Evelyn Alexie said:


> A lot of good comments on this thread.
> 
> I keep coming back to the basic idea -- if reading threads about people's sales bothers you, why not stop reading them? Go write something instead. The people who find the posts helpful will keep reading them and the people who don't will have more pages done and thus universal happiness will be achieved.
> 
> Or not. Must be too simple a solution, or people would already be doing it.


Are you suggesting that we eradicate complaining and arguing on KBoards?


----------



## MyCatDoesNotConsent (Sep 11, 2017)

Я не согласен с условиями T.O.S.


----------



## BFEditing (Jun 3, 2018)

Unless specifically asked, I find it a bit odd. I could understand if it is done within a group specifically for authors and is meant to inspire others.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

HSh said:


> Money is and will remain a touchy subject to most people -- whether you're struggling to survive or just want to keep up with the joneses. I'm sure some of what I've said has come across as bragged (and from my POV was just being so thrilled to have enough!). It's hard to gauge tone on the internet.
> 
> Most people seem to post money figures to help. On the other hand, a casual comment about how much money someone else made in a thread where I'm humbling myself asking for help / encouragement / advice--really can feel like a kick in the pants.
> 
> ...


My skills are not fungible either so I totally sympathize. I have no stories in my head that are not romance, and I do not have enough imagination to make something up. Even though the scammers are concentrated in my back yard, too bad, because this is where I live. And it is hard.

I quit my job one week into writing my first fiction. Fortunately my husband had health insurance, but yeah, we rolled the dice. I also care less and less about marketing and have been trying hard to take my ego out of the equation this past year and be good with whatever I sell without the effort. But I can do that because I invested so much of what I made earlier. Risk taking is necessary sometimes in this business IMHO, but the one thing I would NEVER do is make a large CREDIT purchase on the assumption that big sales would continue. Where I see people get into trouble is in buying a big house after their first good year or whatever.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Anarchist said:


> Are you suggesting that we eradicate complaining and arguing on KBoards?


Can we vote?

*raises hand for "AYE"*


Betsy


----------



## abgwriter (Sep 12, 2015)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I cannot imagine the bitter and negative mindset of somebody who assumes everyone is lying, even when they are trying to help others achieve the same success they have found. So yeah. I made 590k in 2017. My net was 500k. I put 245k into a defined benefit plan. I have an assistant, a bookkeeper, and a daily housekeeper, my house is beautiful and 100% paid off, and I just got back from my annual months-long stay in Australia and New Zealand. And I have shared virtually everything I have done to get here. It is not magic. It is knowing how to write books people want to read, steady hard work, being honest about what is not working, including learning from bad reviews, and not settling for good enough in your work. The bar has been raised. You need polished prose and polished covers and something unique to offer. And yes it is harder than ever due to changes in publishing, more competition, and cheaters and scammers.


This! I'm sorry this happened to you and so many kudos on all the achievements you have. I honestly don't understand how someone can read a post like this and feel bitter about it when it's basically saying: IT CAN BE DONE. 
That is all any newbie author needs, the confidence that it can be done, it HAS been done. Isn't this the exact same guarantee we have when we consider trad pub? It's all good and nice about the art of writing and all that but many of us have more practical concerns. We have J. K. Rowling, James Paterson, Danielle Steel, Stephenie Meyer and E. L. James as our monetary guarantees in trad pub. If no one posts their sales for the indie market then we have no guarantee that it works, instead, we have a bunch of people complaining about how their books don't make money and their strategies fail and how Zon is the big, bad shark out to get them. 
I had the luck to be introduced to the indie market back in 2015 and to dive in it when it was still fun and informative to lurk around in these forums. I fear for the newbies just coming out. With as much negativity, bitterness and cynicism that we have now they might decide to try their luck at trad pub after all.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Lorri Moulton said:


>


Firefly *is* the official TV show of KBoards.

Just sayin'.


----------



## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Dpock said:


> *It's usually meant as a form of encouragement *and is often in response to a specific inquiry by an OP. What can be annoying, but not kick in the face worthy, is the humble bragging, the "But what do I know? I just paid cash for my new house, so..."


Yeah these threads are all over reddit and they are encouraging.

Many of the romance authors I followed said it's all about experimenting and you can always try one or two things that another author is doing and see what works for you.

I always felt that many trad authors were a little discouraging about trying to get published, like it's so hard and only a few can succeed at getting a deal, selling any books and making any money. I always found it depressing to read many of their articles and interviews.

With self published authors, I have found many more uplifting and encouraging stories. It seems possible to make a decent living and build an enjoyable career. 
Not everyone will make 6 or 7 figures but it's good to read stories of authors who are quiting their jobs, making a little more than their day job income, paying off debts, buying a home etc. with money they make from making up stories.


----------



## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

abgwriter said:


> I had the luck to be introduced to the indie market back in 2015 and to dive in it when it was still fun and informative to lurk around in these forums. I fear for the newbies just coming out. With as much negativity, bitterness and cynicism that we have now they might decide to try their luck at trad pub after all.


I think it's because some newbies (not all! and I'm certainly not pointing fingers at anyone who's discouraged. I totally grok discouraged!) got into this craziness because they heard people were making big bucks with what seemed little work (sit down, crank out some words on the computer and, voila! How hard can it be??). No matter how many people warned it wasn't that easy and it certainly wasn't guaranteed, people plunged in anyhow and now they feel like they were rooked. Meanwhile, the ones for whom "it's the writing, stupid" are still plugging away, knowing it's not easy but finding that the journey matters as much if not more than the destination. But for those for whom the destination was always pots of gold for little effort, reality pretty much sucks.

ETA: Even the successful scammers (contemptible, unprincipled, unethical slime that they are) still have to work at it.


----------



## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

I don't care one way or the other if people post how much they've made, but I notice that very few people ever itemize their expenses.  They give you the gross, but not the net.  I'm extremely skeptical of the usefulness to any author of "I made such and such," without a breakdown of the costs involved.  I've seen more than a few indie authors disappear from publishing over the years because they ended up in a big financial hole and had to quit.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Avis Black said:


> I don't care one way or the other if people post how much they've made, but I notice that very few people ever itemize their expenses. They give you the gross, but not the net. I'm extremely skeptical of the usefulness to any author of "I made such and such," without a breakdown of the costs involved. I've seen more than a few indie authors disappear from publishing over the years because they ended up in a big financial hole and had to quit.


I just gave you my net. That included two months in NZ and Australia going first class. Advertising was my highest ever: about 4% I think.


----------



## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Traditional publishers and their authors are always writing 'NY times bestselling author' etc but they rarely say how many books they sold and much they earn.

It is often the mainstream media who exaggerate and write general stuff like 'X author sold over 2 million books'. Didn't they say J.K. Rowling was a billionaire who used to be on welfare and she said she was not a billionaire, yet. 

They hardly ever give real facts like how many rejection letters and years it took for certain authors to get a deal. They often inflate their incomes, they don't mention that some of these authors are still working a day job and they don't explain that many of these authors are paid once or twice a year, not monthly. 

When they report that X author just signed a $500,000 publishing deal, I've had friends who thought the author got all that money upfront. 

That's why I still meet people today who want a trad deal and won't even look into self-publishing.


----------



## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Avis Black said:


> I don't care one way or the other if people post how much they've made, but I notice that very few people ever itemize their expenses. They give you the gross, but not the net.


Actually, I think that's changing. More and more people ARE posting their percentage of gross that goes to advertising and expenses. I don't think it was left out because of any desire to obscure the facts, but because, at least in the beginning, the cost to earnings often weren't as high as they may be now. These days, people have begun to present a more complete picture because many (not all! and some of those found their stride before ads were a factor) have found that spending on promo is a prerequisite for reaching readers. IMO, it's another example of the generosity of spirit that motivates so many in the indie community to share. Those who haven't may just not be so aware.

ETA that even detailed "itemizing" won't tell you everything. I may spend tens of thousands on poorly performing FB ads a year because I'm an idiot who writes brilliantly poetic tomes about navel lint while Fred down the street spends a couple of hundred to a MUCH greater return and enormous sales because he's NOT an idiot and he writes books millions love. And even if both of us wrote about navel lint, he might still do better because he hit the vampire navel lint craze just right. YMMV should be engraved on all would-be writers brains before they start comparing themselves to anyone else.


----------



## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

Anarchist said:


> Moreover, those who make more are assigned more authority. An author making $1 million per year deserves more cred than an author making $50,000 a year.


Even an indie author making $50K a year has a certain amount of cred, considering how many don't even make three figures.


----------



## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Anarchist said:


> I'll often see people offer publishing advice, and check out their books on Amazon. Noticing they're in KU with ranks in the six digits, my reaction is...


Yep I see that too. A few people on youtube are saying they are bestsellers and can teach you to be a bestseller. When you check out their books, they are number 1 in the free chart in some tiny sub-sub-genre.

I notice that many people don't understand how sales and rankings work. So when they see 'number 1 bestseller' but its a free book or in a tiny genre, they think they are signing up for a course or watching a webinar with a big fish author.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I am not writing a commodity. I am writing the books of my heart. I think that is a disingenuous distinction. As long as you love some genre, you can write commercial fiction. If you are writing something very offbeat and are fine with it not selling much, I do not understand why you would be reading posts about how to succeed monetarily. Personally I am in between. I write the story I want to write even if I am pretty sure that it will sell half as much as my most popular series. I look to the long term and take risks in my writing to get better. The success I would ultimately love would be to do great because I wrote something distinctive although still within the genre I love, and I wrote it extremely well. 

Everybody has their own priorities. But I absolutely cannot stand this idea that if you write successful commercial fiction and are writing for your audience, you are somehow making McDonalds hamburgers. I make Farmburger hamburgers, personally, because they are delicious and I like them a whole lot better than most fancy piled-up food. My books are distinctive enough to have great legs. That is my own sweet spot.  I do not think it is helpful though to oneself or anybody else to sneer at others who sell better and imply that they are churning out crappy mass produced hamburgers.


----------



## abgwriter (Sep 12, 2015)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I am not writing a commodity. I am writing the books of my heart. I think that is a disingenuous distinction. As long as you love some genre, you can write commercial fiction. If you are writing something very offbeat and are fine wirh it not selling much, I do not understand why you would be reading posts about how to succeed monetarily. Personally I am in between. I write the story I want to write even if I am pretty sure that it will sell half as much as my most popular series. I look to the long term and take risks in my writing to get better. The success I would ultimately love would be to do great because I wrote something distinctive although still within the genre I love, and I wrote it extremely well.
> 
> Everybody has their own priorities. But I absolutely cannot stand this idea that if you write successful commercial fiction and are writing for your audience, you are somehow making McDonalds hamburgers. I make Farmburger hamburgers, personally, because they are delicious and I like them a whole lot better than most fancy piled-up food. My books are distinctive enough to have great legs. That is my own sweet spot. I do not think it is helpful though to oneself or anybody else to sneer at others who sell better and imply that they are churning out crappy mass produced hamburgers.


I agree. I don't think the concept of commodity or "art" can (or should) ever be applied in comparison. It's something too subjective to be given an factual denomination. For the followers of Marcel Duchamp, his "Fountain" is an artistic masterpiece. For me, it's a toilet. That applies across all spheres, what one person considers art another can think it's total rubbish. I don't think that discussion should even be brought to the table. Writers should write what they want to write, but they need to do it with the proper expectations. If someone wants to write in a super-niche, super-obscure market then fine by them, go right ahead, but they can't expect to make the same income as someone who writes in a wider spectrum, and, most importantly, they can't complain when the sales are not the same, or justify their circumstances by making snide comments like what the others write is mainstream and what they write is "art."
For me, results are what matter. They should be what matter. Otherwise, we are just asking to be back in the olden times of publishing when a group of stuffy old people in a room police all upcoming writers and determine what should be considered valuable literature and what shouldn't. Indie is about freedom for each person to reach and do what they want, not to create and discuss labels that only work as limiters.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I do agree that if someone tells you how to write or market a book and they haven't sold any of their own, it's pretty hard to believe them. Of course, there is such a thing as a pen name. I mean you can look at my books, see that a lot of them have low rankings, but until I tell you that's all there is, you don't really know.

So who's credible at that point? People give advice. Take it, try it, leave it, it's up to you. I always seem to get shot down when I try to help, so I gave that up months ago, maybe even years. Besides, these days there isn't much I know that others are not willing to share in my stead. 

By the way, there is a way to prove how much you made, should you care to, at least on Amazon. Just click on Historical, scroll down to royalties earned, take a screen shot and... but then, I think it's against Amazon's rules to publish the actual numbers in a public venue. Anyway, problem of who's lying and who isn't solved.


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I began self-publishing for one reason: because other authors did it first and publicly shared their sales numbers/earnings. If I hadn't read their generous and informative posts on writers forums, I'd still be doing what I was doing pre-2011: submitting to trad agents and publishers, collecting rejections, and sitting on unwanted manuscripts that would never be seen by human eyes. Because I honestly believed that was the only way. I had no idea self-published books could sell to anybody but family and friends. I didn't know it was a viable way to reach a wide audience, let alone make a living. I think that's why most of us share information now, including sales numbers. We're not trying to boast, we're trying to pay it forward.

And for anybody who _is_ bragging a little, where's the harm? When an excited newb hits their first $100 or $1,000 month or has their first six figure year, I'm happy to celebrate with them. Isn't that a major purpose of writers forums and groups? The social aspect? The part where we share the journey and celebrate or commiserate with our friends along the way?

As for the question of whose advice to listen to, we all have different criteria for that. Personally, I listen to "how to write" advice from anybody whose writing skills impress me and "how to sell" advice from anybody whose sales impress me. If someone isn't doing particularly amazing in either of those areas, I may still find value in their posts because they have an amusing or thoughtful take on things or because I just have a good impression of them as a kind or sensible person.

In the end, none of us are being paid to share numbers, real or invented. It actually costs something valuable - time and emotional energy. It often leads to the sharer being insulted, mocked, or receiving retaliatory reviews from people who think they need to be taken down a peg. The only reason some authors continue with the sharing, despite these negatives, is because they genuinely want to help others or because they want a little company along their author journey. The rare person who may exaggerate success because they're desperate for unearned kudos seems a small price to pay for the majority of honest and helpful posts.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I just don't think it's an either/or. I think it's a spectrum. I absolutely am trying to write commercial fiction for a large audience, and I make my choices--mainly about WHAT to write--based on what that audience wants (what sells). For example, I'll never write a physically weak guy, or a short guy, or a "realistically ambiguous" ending, because for my audience, it just doesn't work. The biggest part of marketing IMHO is what you write--an appealing idea for your genre. And that means "commercial." I'd put myself halfway on the spectrum. I'm writing to my market and to my genre, absolutely, though. 

Like I said--Farmburger hamburgers. I'm not out there creating duck confit with raspberry coulee or whatever for the discerning diner.


----------



## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I am not writing a commodity. I am writing the books of my heart.


Exactly, you're not writing a commodity. Neither am I. Some do, but not us.

But we are _selling_ a commodity. Each wonderful book we write--and I say that straight, not sarcastically--is nevertheless instantly replicated as an available digital good, each copy exactly the same as the next copy. That's a commodity.

That's not to denigrate anyone's work. The content may be art, or superb craft, whatever. The ebook itself, that which is sold for money, is precisely a commodity. That's why those who have worked out how to market the commodity can make money. In fact, that's what traditional publishing relied upon in the past--the writer as artist, the publisher as the keeper and seller of the commodity.

Now we've combined writing and publishing into the indie writer/self-publisher. Two different skill sets and approaches. Each supports the other--or it doesn't, in which case effectiveness is lost.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## tdecastro31 (Mar 2, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I will never forget the day when the person who wrote that comment you love so much told me I was lying about my sales.


It was a witty comment. Sorry that my getting a good laugh of it, opened old wounds


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

kw3000 said:


> Don't unnecessarily shoot yourself in the foot by arbitrarily ruling out advice from any given source for 'x' reasons. Listen to it all, take what's useful, discard the rest.


True enough. And given how ridiculously easy it is to use a pen name or several while indie publishing, what one author might be providing as advice may not be related to their sales or perceived lack thereof. You can't really know what one author is earning by glancing at Amazon figures alone.

Of course, we're also liars by profession, right? Take everything you read with a big ol heaping of salt.

EDIT to add: and in this age of litigious-happy authors, scammers, and the like, I'd probably hesitate to post sales figures, even if they were intended to be a benefit to indies. Someone can throw some BS trademarks up against the wall or a report a bunch of books and make an author's life a pain in the ass. I used to think that pen names were a waste of time, but now I wonder if using some strategically might help insulate one from the negative nellies and assholes out there who hate other peoples' success enough to mess with their books or accounts or livelihoods.


----------



## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Hell, reading people's numbers is what prompted me to stop being so shy about Indie publishing in the first place. So thanks to everyone who shares how their hard work, marketing, and exploration of things that work/don't work helped them get where they are. Your information is invaluable and this prawny prawn appreciates you very much.


----------



## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

I think its important for people across the spectrum to share where they are. If I only saw the people that aren't doing well that would be very depressing. On the other hand when I first started writing I thought all you had to do was write a good book and people would hand you fist fulls of money. Both perspectives add balance.  They also show that writing is a journey one that you have to keep working at.  I appreciate all people sharing their triumphs and their struggles.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I think some people are far too cynical. The bad actors generally out themselves with the flashing red lights around their necks (poor-me victimhood while trying to sell you services, for instance--that one's common. Doing dick moves and then putting up 2-hour videos about how they're actually the sufferer. Stuffing books. Etc. Not that hard to sniff out.) Otherwise? In my experience, people are pretty honest. For heaven's sake, we can all go look at their books and see how they're doing (and how well they actually write, and what shady-or-not techniques they're using), and everybody knows it. It's a fairly transparent business.

If they're trying to sell you something, ask around. The bad actors are WELL known. Where there's smoke, there's generally fire. Otherwise, there's not much reason for people to lie. What do you imagine they get out of it?


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Anarchist said:


> I'll often see people offer publishing advice, and check out their books on Amazon. Noticing they're in KU with ranks in the six digits, my reaction is...


You're aware that there are probably 6 million-plus books on Amazon, right? Anyone with books in the low six figures may not be rolling in dough, and perhaps they are not wildly successful -- but if they have books ranked under 300K it means they have a book in the top 5%, which is an indicator that they are doing _something_ right.

I would venture that many of the authors here who have given good advice to others have books ranking in six figures. In fact, a quick perusal of books here displayed on this thread, written by people whose input and advice I personally have found valuable, show many of them with books having in six figure rankings.


----------



## Yayoi (Apr 26, 2016)

Clementine said:


> My day job revolves around data, statistics, and assessment, so I'm totally into posts about income, big or small. I haven't read a post in which I've felt that someone was just showing off, but even if they were, so what? It's okay for people to celebrate achievements and it's good to feel genuinely happy for them. Feeling threatened or offended by that seems petty to me.


Petty to you, but not to others, imo. Everybody reacts differently. If you're having a bad day or have just checked your measly earnings online it's easy to feel angry or frustrated by these authors whom you might think are humble bragging. That's just natural. Especially if you'd been slogging for too long.


----------



## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

jb1111 said:


> I would venture that many of the authors here who have given good advice to others have books ranking in six figures. In fact, a quick perusal of books here displayed on this thread, written by people whose input and advice I personally have found valuable, show many of them with books having in six figure rankings.


I'm going to pretend to be Patty Jansen for a moment, and point out that a book ranking in the 6-figure range may also be wide, or selling really well outside the US, or have a hot-selling secret pen name. Just checking the US Amazon for the public name doesn't necessarily give a true picture. I try not to make assumptions, and judge people's advice on its merits.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

PaulineMRoss said:


> I'm going to pretend to be Patty Jansen for a moment, and point out that a book ranking in the 6-figure range may also be wide, or selling really well outside the US, or have a hot-selling secret pen name. Just checking the US Amazon for the public name doesn't necessarily give a true picture. I try not to make assumptions, and judge people's advice on its merits.


Or it's an old book the author no longer bothers trying to boost, or one which is not in their primary genre, or a book they just dont care about anymore.

My first dozen books were all non-fiction, and they form a chain down the well of the abyss. Anyone who judges me based on them, well, I wont be paying them any attention. Fact is, I leave them there because sometimes people need them, and sometimes they find them because they read my novels. But I dont actually pay them any attention anymore. Time of my life that's past.


----------



## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

Martitalbott said:


> So who's credible at that point? People give advice. Take it, try it, leave it, it's up to you. I always seem to get shot down when I try to help, so I gave that up months ago, maybe even years. Besides, these days there isn't much I know that others are not willing to share in my stead.


Over the years I've posted articles on my website about all kinds of topics. I've had hundreds of thousands of views, and a single complaint. Apparenty I started a sentence with 'And'.

Anyone offering advice is going to be a target for someone out there.


----------



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

thevoiceofone said:


> I don't think I have ever seen a traditional author talk about how much they have earned. They just get on with it and do the work, and saying they are an author full-time is enough even if they have a book or course teaching people how to write and publish.
> 
> However, there seems to be a growing trend in the indie market (Mostly from those who have something to sell - a course, a book, a membership etc ) to list sales made in a month or a year.
> 
> ...


Thank you, thank you, thank you! There are certain authors who think every single post is a request for them to shout about their earnings. Even when somebody posts some ridiculous report about their two sales per day, someone will think we all want a screenshot of their fabulous income.

They pretend it is done to encourage others, but I don't see it. They go through every step they've taken sometimes, but never actually disclose the really significant bit, which is how much they've spent on advertising. There is one who will detail his ads and how much they cost, but on his facebook groups, not on here where it hasn't been asked for.


----------



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Jenwrites said:


> I'm OK with people posting their numbers, but what I really want to know is how they got there.


There is one author who made 1.5million pounds (not dollars) in three months. He has been featured on tv and magazines and is always ready with how he hooked in his readers. What he never tells anyone is about the 1000 pounds per day he spent on facebook ads to get there.


----------



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> I'll often see people offer publishing advice, and check out their books on Amazon. Noticing they're in KU with ranks in the six digits, my reaction is...


This. There was an endorsement I recently read declaring that 'all my books hit the best seller lists and most are still there' - her highest rank was 100,000.

It's like the people who write a book about marketing then come to a forum wanting advice on how to sell it!


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Doglover said:


> It's like the people who write a book about marketing then come to a forum wanting advice on how to sell it!


That one never gets old.


----------



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

tdecastro31 said:


> It was a witty comment. Sorry that my getting a good laugh of it, opened old wounds


Actually, I found it funny as well. But, I do know that UsedtoPostHere is not the only high selling author who has been called a liar by this poster. There is an author who doesn't frequent these boards who makes a good six figures mostly from being in select. He called her a liar, outright, when one only needs look at these authors ranking to see there are no lies.

_Edited to show current username for author in question, and remove personal comment. --Betsy_


----------



## Kell Inkston (Oct 9, 2017)

Dpock said:


> It's usually meant as a form of encouragement and is often in response to a specific inquiry by an OP. What can be annoying, but not kick in the face worthy, is the humble bragging, the "But what do I know? I just paid cash for my new house, so..."


This is the way I've been looking at it too. I feel like it's a fairly good way to help encourage people with a reminder that things are going well, and sometimes the fish in the pond all need a little more bait to keep swimming, if you catch my drift.

Of course, it would also count as a humblebrag, but above all I'm grateful to them that they're willing to come off that way to show us their progress, if that makes any sense.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

I'm grateful to Konrath and plenty of others who were open about their numbers early on, because that convinced me to change my attitudes years ago, which changed my life. Plenty of people here who showed themselves to be upstanding folks over the years have shared their numbers when they became successful, some have done it recently, and how anybody can poo-poo that as bragging or disingenuous or think they're owed more detail than they're given for some inexplicable reason . . . well, it's beyond me. 

How awful that people take time out of their day to try to inspire and encourage others. How terribly gauche.


----------



## It&#039;s A Mystery (Mar 14, 2017)

Shelley K said:


> I'm grateful to Konrath and plenty of others who were open about their numbers early on, because that convinced me to change my attitudes years ago, which changed my life. Plenty of people here who showed themselves to be upstanding folks over the years have shared their numbers when they became successful, some have done it recently, and how anybody can poo-poo that as bragging or disingenuous or think they're owed more detail than they're given for some inexplicable reason . . . well, it's beyond me.
> 
> How awful that people take time out of their day to try to inspire and encourage others. How terribly gauche.


Absolutely this.

Seeing people post numbers was what really opened my eyes to indie publishing and that it was possible to do things a 'different' way. I still devour any post with numbers now as each one makes me a little bit smarter, a little bit more savvy, which I can channel into my own business.

Once I realised what was possible, I wrote seven books where I tested the market, looking at what went across well, what didn't etc... and then I put all of this into a proper business plan and executed it.

I plan to post my numbers after six months and then after a year, not to boast, but in the hope that I'll give someone the bug to pursue their dreams just like it did for me.


----------



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

When someone comes to these boards, sincerely wanting advice on why their books aren't selling, they are owed the courtesy of not being told how much some other author made in their first year. That is neither helpful nor encouraging, but it has happened.

I don't make much at all, but I do have two awards and one nomination for another award and I have a following of 2000 who all ask me about my books and are interested. I don't keep ramming those small successes down everyone's throats so why do people with high incomes have to do it? If asked, fine, that's one thing and information about how they got there is also great, but some just post for the sake of posting.


----------



## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Doglover said:


> When someone comes to these boards, sincerely wanting advice on why their books aren't selling, they are owed the courtesy of not being told how much some other author made in their first year. That is neither helpful nor encouraging, but it has happened.


Yeah, that would be unhelpful if it's unaccompanied by some explanation of how they got to that point. I honestly haven't seen much of that. Generally when people post sales and income numbers, it's either because someone asked explicitly, or challenged them in some way ('Why should I take your advice anyway?' sort of thing) or else it's an anniversary post or a milestone. I find them inspirational, but YMMV.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> I'll often see people offer publishing advice, and check out their books on Amazon. Noticing they're in KU with ranks in the six digits, my reaction is...


And there it is.

That's the line where boasting becomes problematic: because our little community has to toxic equivalency between income and worthiness. Doubly so when you use Amazon ranks in a world where there are other platforms so even that grotesquely flawed rubric doesn't actually mean anything.

Some people don't just use their earnings as encouragement and data for others; they use it as a trump card to declare they're right about every aspect of writing all the time because 'money'. And I think we can all think of products that make a lot of money despite being stupid and terrible.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Vaalingrade said:


> And there it is.
> 
> That's the line where boasting becomes problematic: because our little community has to toxic equivalency between income and worthiness. Doubly so when you use Amazon ranks in a world where there are other platforms so even that grotesquely flawed rubric doesn't actually mean anything.


I'm talking about authors in KU. That was evident in my post, the one you quoted.



Vaalingrade said:


> Some people don't just use their earnings as encouragement and data for others; they use it as a trump card to declare they're right about every aspect of writing all the time because 'money'. And I think we can all think of products that make a lot of money despite being stupid and terrible.


You're conflating worthiness of publishing advice and book quality. Yes, good products can fail and bad products can succeed. But commercial failure and success usually stem from business principles.

But hey, don't let me stop you from taking advice from people who have yet to demonstrate their advice is worth considering.

If you're getting married, take advice from someone who's been divorced five times and is currently single.

If you're buying stocks, take advice from someone who's bankrupt.

If you're raising kids, take advice from someone whose kids are felons and crack addicts.

If you're learning to play poker, take advice from someone who goes broke every time he hits the tables.

If you're learning to cook, take advice from someone who eats fast food 10 times a week.

Or you could recognize that the merit of a person's advice springs from his or her experience in executing it.

Do whatever works for you.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> My skills are not fungible either so I totally sympathize. I have no stories in my head that are not romance, and I do not have enough imagination to make something up. Even though the scammers are concentrated in my back yard, too bad, because this is where I live. And it is hard.
> 
> I quit my job one week into writing my first fiction. Fortunately my husband had health insurance, but yeah, we rolled the dice. I also care less and less about marketing and have been trying hard to take my ego out of the equation this past year and be good with whatever I sell without the effort. But I can do that because I invested so much of what I made earlier. Risk taking is necessary sometimes in this business IMHO, but the one thing I would NEVER do is make a large CREDIT purchase on the assumption that big sales would continue. Where I see people get into trouble is in buying a big house after their first good year or whatever.


Thanks for your response to my post. It meant a lot. I'm absolutely with you about credit, too. Everyone should be careful--but authors even more so! Glad I learned that lesson early.

And I _am_ glad when you share your successes and the reasons for them (not being always on trend or the best marketer, but writing books _you_ love and your _readers_ love).


----------



## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

I have only ever seen ONE author do it correctly and that was Chris Fox. He's a nice dude too and I have yet to see him boast. He is honest with his failings too. ( Anyway, when he did it he listed gross amount earned for the year, he then listed a break down of his expenses, and then he showed his NET earnings, and which books worked for him, and how many he has, and mistakes he made, and areas he will improve) I believe it was year end. That kind of information may be very helpful to new folks. 

To me that is the way to do it if you are going to reveal numbers. 

Many don't and just announce their gross without saying anymore. (not taking into account expenses, net, how many books they have, how many subscribers they have that helped sell those books or large arc team or how long they have been in the game, etc etc.. Yes there are many factors that play into why ONE person can earn X and another can only earn Y doing the exact same marketing)

It can end up being more of a brag or a pitch for their product than a lesson.


----------



## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Anarchist said:


> I'm talking about authors in KU. That was evident in my post, the one you quoted.
> 
> You're conflating worthiness of publishing advice and book quality. Yes, good products can fail and bad products can succeed. But commercial failure and success usually stem from business principles.
> 
> ...


I think the situation is more complicated than that. Things like felony and bankruptcy can be objectively validated. Things like success in writing are not as easy to validate.

All we can look at are the for validation are publicly available rankings. If, as has already been pointed out, one stops with Amazon.com, authors whose biggest market is elsewhere will look less successful, as will wide authors. Even if one looked at all marketplaces for all realtors (each of which has a different way of ranking books), it might be hard to translate that into raw sales data, let alone income. Of course, there's also no way to know how much author spent to get to those rankings. A writer will obviously move more books by doing more advertising. We can see the book movement to some extent, but not the advertising expenditure, so we have no idea what the ROI is like. If someone sells a thousand books a day, they'd look pretty successful. If we knew the same person was spending twice the amount earned in royalties on advertising, the picture would look very different.

Also, there are a lot of facets of success. For example, someone might have good artistic sensibilities and be able to give good advice on covers. A great advertiser might be able to give great advice on advertising. That doesn't mean the artist is going to give good advertise on advertising or the advertiser on art.

Finally, one person's success can't necessarily be replicated by doing the same thing they did, particularly if the circumstances of the author doing the replicating are different. Even a different genre could make a huge difference. Certainly, strategies change over time, so last year's great way to build a following may not work this year. Getting advice from someone who threw up his or her first book and then started selling like crazy may not be helpful to the average prawn. The person will look successful but may well not even know why that first book took off. In that scenario, advice from a fellow prawn who doubled his or her sales might actually be more immediately useful.


----------



## Guest (Jun 4, 2018)

PaulineMRoss said:


> I'm going to pretend to be Patty Jansen for a moment, and point out that a book ranking in the 6-figure range may also be wide, or selling really well outside the US, or have a hot-selling secret pen name. Just checking the US Amazon for the public name doesn't necessarily give a true picture. I try not to make assumptions, and judge people's advice on its merits.


Yes, and this goes back to what I was saying about context. I often preface my posts with the fact that, no, my books are NEVER going to be Amazon bestsellers. Because Amazon is not my primary focus. My business model is very different than most people, and my goal isn't to quit my day job as I like my day job (and I am well compensated at it). So any advice I offer is probably not going to be useful to someone who is publishing a romance series that wants to make six-figures. But if you are interested in moving print, you might want to talk to me. Or if you are struggling with stand-alone literary novels, or even struggling to manage your expenses because you are spending half your earnings just to maintain sales rank.

The person interested in making self-publishing a stable line of residual income while keeping their day job is probably better off talking to me than someone making six-figures, who is probably also spending 50-60 hours a week writing, editing, and promoting because, well, IT IS their full time job.


----------



## david_macrae (Jan 24, 2018)

I for one am also grateful for those who take the time and share their success. It is great motivation for this new author. I love reading how others have done. The other threads I have been devouring is the new launch threads. For me it has been the best marketing school. And again, I would like to thank all those authors who give of their time to help others.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

After a fair number of years doing this, one thing I know for sure is that nothing is for sure.  There's no "right" writing process, no "right" marketing methods, no "right" distribution strategy or price. There are best processes. A while back there was a post somewhere called "The Six-Figure Author," that looked at the commonalities. They are super general and nothing to do with whether somebody is a plotter or pantser or in Select or not or any of the other things. I think the things were something like

- Editing
- Professional covers
- Books in series (does not mean they have to contain the same characters--just that they are connected somehow)
- Genre with good readership accessible to indies (literary fiction for ex is a hard sell for indies)
- ETA: I think it also said writing reasonably fast--3 or 4 books/year or more.

I think that was actually about it. 

And if somebody on these boards bugs anybody, one cool feature is the Ignore List. I have quite a few folks on my own, if I haven't ever found their contributions helpful or I know they hate me.  Ain't nobody got time for that.


----------



## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

Doglover said:


> There is one author who made 1.5million pounds (not dollars) in three months. He has been featured on tv and magazines and is always ready with how he hooked in his readers. What he never tells anyone is about the 1000 pounds per day he spent on facebook ads to get there.


Well, that may be true, but then looking at it from his point of view, he spent 90,000 pounds to make 1.5 million pounds. Seems like a pretty fair trade to me. If I had $90,000 to spend on FB ads and knew it would make me $1.5million, I'd be all over it.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Ha, the ones that kill me are the ones that say, "How I made a fortune without promoting!" That one always gets an eye=roll from me, but what do I know. Of course I do know one guy who made it big without promoting, but he had a huge fight on a message board, and people on his side ran right out to buy his book. Come to think of it, a fight is what got my books going too, but I don't recommend it. It got me a lot of one star reviews too.


----------



## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

thevoiceofone said:


> I have only ever seen ONE author do it correctly and that was Chris Fox. He's a nice dude too and I have yet to see him boast. He is honest with his failings too. ( Anyway, when he did it he listed gross amount earned for the year, he then listed a break down of his expenses, and then he showed his NET earnings, and which books worked for him, and how many he has, and mistakes he made, and areas he will improve) I believe it was year end. That kind of information may be very helpful to new folks.


I enjoyed his two Youtube videos where he laid out his earnings for 2016 and 2017. It gives a new writer hope when they see what a person can achieve if they decide to go all in. I can't put the kind of money he does into his launch budgets, but that's just today. This time next year I might be outspending him.


----------



## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Bill Hiatt said:


> I think the situation is more complicated than that. Things like felony and bankruptcy can be objectively validated. Things like success in writing are not as easy to validate.


We're not really talking about success in writing, are we? We're talking about success in self-publishing. That's not too hard to validate.


----------



## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

The focus on the distinction between gross and net is interesting, because the implication of the question is that such-and-such author only grossed X00,000 last year because he/she spent Y0,000 on advertising, and so actually earned substantially less. I think sometimes the reason is that the amount he/she spent on advertising was negligible, and so the net wasn't all that different, and it didn't occur to them to draw the distinction.

2017 was a stupid-good year for me, and I just went to look at my numbers with this in mind: how much did I actually spent on advertising? It wasn't a lot. Of the $32K or so in expenses, $20.5K went to audible narrators, and $2K went to buying a new computer. Most of the rest was for advertising, but that's just not much, and almost entirely bookbub costs.

I don't know if I can repeat that kind of year, so I don't know if I could say to anybody 'do this and you TOO can succeed at this". (I wouldn't say this anyway, for the record.) But: not all of us are following the 'publish-often, advertise heavy, write series, keep it moving' approach, which I think IS one with high advertising costs associated.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

GeneDoucette said:


> The focus on the distinction between gross and net is interesting, because the implication of the question is that such-and-such author only grossed X00,000 last year because he/she spent Y0,000 on advertising, and so actually earned substantially less. I think sometimes the reason is that the amount he/she spent on advertising was negligible, and so the net wasn't all that different, and it didn't occur to them to draw the distinction.
> 
> 2017 was a stupid-good year for me, and I just went to look at my numbers with this in mind: how much did I actually spent on advertising? It wasn't a lot. Of the $32K or so in expenses, $20.5K went to audible narrators, and $2K went to buying a new computer. Most of the rest was for advertising, but that's just not much, and almost entirely bookbub costs.
> 
> I don't know if I can repeat that kind of year, so I don't know if I could say to anybody 'do this and you TOO can succeed at this". (I wouldn't say this anyway, for the record.) But: not all of us are following the 'publish-often, advertise heavy, write series, keep it moving' approach, which I think IS one with high advertising costs associated.


Yep. I think my max ad spend for a year is about 5%. Most of the time it's been more like 1%. It's harder now to keep things sticky without ads in the marketer-centric genres, but some people are still managing it. There are lots of different models for success. Lots of paths. The heavy-ad-spend, trend-writing one is probably the easiest to follow, since it doesn't rely on outside forces like word of mouth--it's more under your control, and there are people willing to assist you to do it for $$$. If you're willing to bend your ethical standards, there's yet another path, or a wider path, or whatever you want to call it. But that doesn't mean that everybody who makes money is following those paths.

The people I know who make good money 5 or 10 or 20 years running are definitely NOT following those paths--they're building an audience. That's kind of like flying a 747--hard as heck to get it off the ground, easier to keep it up there, though you can't abandon the controls. There's no autopilot.  Lots of people do seem to use tons of ads to get off the ground (or to get a new pen name off the ground), but they spend less once they've done that. They still have to work hard, though. Every book had better be great, or you won't hang onto that audience. Sometimes tastes change enough that it's harder to hang onto them even if your skills are fabulous. That's why those long-term big earners are so very rare.


----------



## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

David VanDyke said:


> We're not really talking about success in writing, are we? We're talking about success in self-publishing. That's not too hard to validate.


Being a fan of the late, great Jim Rohn, I believe him when he said, "Let's look at the numbers." In almost every business where you are attempting to grab your piece of the pie, the numbers are what tell the story. When you run AMS or BB ads, you look at the numbers to see if they are successful. If you are running A/B tests on two different covers, you look at the numbers. And when you look at the bottom line at the end of the year, you look at the numbers. The numbers tell the story. End of story.


----------



## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

PaulineMRoss said:


> . . . a book ranking in the 6-figure range may also be wide, or selling really well outside the US . . .


Also, print sales through distributors and retailers. Not sayin', just sayin'.

*Puts hands in pockets and walks away, whistling.*


----------



## Kathryn Meyer Griffith (May 6, 2013)

I, too, liked hearing what certain authors make/made. Like Sela I left behind my (33 hard years for me) nightmare with publishers in 2012 to self-publish and the first book I self-published, Dinosaur Lake, was also a book the big publishers didn't want. I self-published it and it sold like crazy and still is 6 years later; along with its 3 sequels. Also like Sela it was J.A. Konrath's blog in 2012 that convinced me to self-publish. Then I fought to get my older books' rights back and self-published all of them. I've never regretted it. I don't make a huge income these days but it sure is A LOT more every month than I EVER made with traditional publishers. I have more control and less stress. So I am happy.


----------



## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

dgcasey said:


> Being a fan of the late, great Jim Rohn, I believe him when he said, "Let's look at the numbers." In almost every business where you are attempting to grab your piece of the pie, the numbers are what tell the story. When you run AMS or BB ads, you look at the numbers to see if they are successful. If you are running A/B tests on two different covers, you look at the numbers. And when you look at the bottom line at the end of the year, you look at the numbers. The numbers tell the story. End of story.


If you want to have a look how other books are doing, look at the numbers too, but don't do it simply on Amazon. If you really want to pull back the curtain go to Goodreads. Whether consumed wide, on Amazon, trad, in print or on audible if a book is getting read or listened to the number of ratings there will show it. Lots of books have huge numbers of Amazon reviews and far fewer Goodreads ratings. Big flag that something fishy is up. A lot of folks talk about their huge sales numbers but a gambol by their Goodreads page tells another story.

My experience is that Goodreads ratings: Amazon reviews should naturally be about 4:1 or 3:1 (this is for Amazon exclusive books that are not included in boxsets that might also be reviewed - wide books the ratio should be of course higher). Mine is 4:1 and I have no call to action for reviews in my novel, nor have I asked my followers / newsletter folks to review. I've noticed that authors who ask for reviews at the end of their books can get the ratio down to more like 2:1. At least in fantasy - other genres might be different.


----------



## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

AlecHutson said:


> If you want to have a look how other books are doing, look at the numbers too, but don't do it simply on Amazon. If you really want to pull back the curtain go to Goodreads. Whether consumed wide, on Amazon, trad, in print or on audible if a book is getting read or listened to the number of ratings there will show it. Lots of books have huge numbers of Amazon reviews and far fewer Goodreads ratings. Big flag that something fishy is up. A lot of folks talk about their huge sales numbers but a gambol by their Goodreads page tells another story.
> 
> My experience is that Goodreads: Amazon should naturally be about 4:1 or 3:1. Mine is 4:1 and I have no call to action for reviews in my novel, nor have I asked my followers / newsletter folks to review. I've noticed that authors who ask for reviews at the end of their books can get the ratio down to more like 2:1. At least in fantasy - other genres might be different.


Are you talking about goodreads _reviews_ or goodreads _ratings_?

I don't agree with your conclusions either way, but I wanted clarification on that.

For my most popular book, as I write this:

433 Amazon reviews
278 Goodreads reviews. (2135 ratings)

While we're at it:

4872 Audible ratings.

These are all organic.


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

AlecHutson said:


> If you want to have a look how other books are doing, look at the numbers too, but don't do it simply on Amazon. If you really want to pull back the curtain go to Goodreads. Whether consumed wide, on Amazon, trad, in print or on audible if a book is getting read or listened to the number of ratings there will show it. Lots of books have huge numbers of Amazon reviews and far fewer Goodreads ratings. Big flag that something fishy is up. A lot of folks talk about their huge sales numbers but a gambol by their Goodreads page tells another story.


How would Goodreads reviews be an indicator of a book's sales?

Comparing numbers of reviews, I understand, but in your last sentence you imply that looking at ratings and reviews on Goodreads is an indicator of overall sales, and I'm just not seeing that. Amazon sales rankings give you an indicator of whether a book is actually selling.

Every time I've looked at Goodreads I don't see any sales indicators there. Unless there is one, and I've missed it. And I have books listed on Goodreads. Furthermore, the number of reviews on Goodreads seems comparable when looking at a few of the recent top sellers (but that's just from a glance).


----------



## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Because books of the same genre and type get rated at roughly the same ratio to sales. For trad, it appears to be 7.8. You can read Mark Lawrence's blog post about it here:

http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.com/2015/10/what-do-goodreads-ratings-say-about.html

This is for trad books, as he's a big name trad author. The ratio is different for indies (I think because reviewers are more likely to leave reviews on the ebook store and not the ebook store and ratings on Goodreads). My sales:Goodreads ratings is about 20:1, though that's muddied because I was part of the Amazon prime free book program for a few months. The other good-selling indie fantasy authors I know that I've spoken to about this put the ratio for them (they are exclusive) at more like 17-23:1. It would be interesting to get a more complete data set and see if it works beyond the fantasy genre, but I don't really have the time to do what Mark did in his blog post.

Long story short, unless there's a genre's readership that doesn't review on Goodreads it's a much better snapshot of if a book is being sold and read than Amazon, which is very easily manipulated.

Basically what I'm saying is that when I'm curious to see how an author is really doing I check their Goodreads stats, not their Amazon rankings.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

There are people who see the success of others and become inspired and start working on the reasons why they might be able to succeed, too. Then there are those who see someone's success, frown at it and start throwing up why nots. Those people won't make money at this because mentally they keep quitting before they really get started.


----------



## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

GeneDoucette said:


> Are you talking about goodreads _reviews_ or goodreads _ratings_?
> 
> I don't agree with your conclusions either way, but I wanted clarification on that.
> 
> ...


Ratings. No one is selling massive numbers of books (audible may be a different ratio, we should just restrict it to ebooks and print) and not being rated on Goodreads.

And you have 2,135 ratings on Goodreads and 433 Amazon reviews for The Spaceship Next Door. About 5:1, but I imagine your huge Audible sales skew that.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

AlecHutson said:


> If you want to have a look how other books are doing, look at the numbers too, but don't do it simply on Amazon. If you really want to pull back the curtain go to Goodreads. Whether consumed wide, on Amazon, trad, in print or on audible if a book is getting read or listened to the number of ratings there will show it. Lots of books have huge numbers of Amazon reviews and far fewer Goodreads ratings. Big flag that something fishy is up. A lot of folks talk about their huge sales numbers but a gambol by their Goodreads page tells another story.


I completely disagree.
Goodreads is incredibly difficult to get any traction on.

It all comes down to do your fans use Goodreads. Mine dont. Zero traction there. Goodreads for me is an irrelevancy. I get some reviews there, mostly people posting in both places at the same time.

But use Goodreads as a gauge? Hell no! For most mid-list authors, this would give a totally erroneous impression. Even for top list authors, if their fans are not active on Goodreads, they still wont have any traction there.


----------



## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> I completely disagree.
> Goodreads is incredibly difficult to get any traction on.
> 
> It all comes down to do your fans use Goodreads. Mine dont. Zero traction there. Goodreads for me is an irrelevancy. I get some reviews there, mostly people posting in both places at the same time.
> ...


Your ratio for Hero is 4.1 Goodreads ratings to 1 Amazon review. Now, if we assume that your readers also review at a lower ratio on Amazon (sales:reviews) then yes, I'd agree with you. You seem to have about the same ratio as I do (also 4.1). Unless your readers review on both Amazon and Goodreads at a far lower rate than mine do (and I don't know why epic fantasy and space opera would be radically different) then it seems accurate to me. But to be certain I'd have to know your sales data.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

AlecHutson said:


> Lots of books have huge numbers of Amazon reviews and far fewer Goodreads ratings. Big flag that something fishy is up. A lot of folks talk about their huge sales numbers but a gambol by their Goodreads page tells another story.


While this may be true to some extent, I think it is a bit dubious. I don't know how many times I've seen a BB ad that claimed "Over 10,000 five-star ratings on Goodreads" and gone and looked at both GR and Amazon, only to find the number at Amazon is like, 230 total ratings and only about half of them are five-star. Granted, the readers at GR don't seem to have a problem leaving reviews, but they also don't seem to have a problem adding your book to their To-Read shelf along with the other 85,000 books they have on there. I like GR, I really do, but I don't put nearly the faith in their ratings and reviews as you do.


----------



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

dgcasey said:


> Well, that may be true, but then looking at it from his point of view, he spent 90,000 pounds to make 1.5 million pounds. Seems like a pretty fair trade to me. If I had $90,000 to spend on FB ads and knew it would make me $1.5million, I'd be all over it.


I agree completely and he took a helluva chance, but that's not my point. My point is his declaring that it was because he was such a great writer; I know better.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I've deleted a post insulting another member, and a response thereto. This sort of thing is not done here. Further posting along these lines will lead to a ban from the thread and/or placement on post-approval (our having to read your posts and manually approve them before they appear on the forum).


----------



## Guest (Jun 5, 2018)

Reading about the earnings of others inspired me. "I too can make 5 figures in a month, maybe!!!" I would think to myself.

And lo', it has become a reality.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I have deleted this post as I do not consent to the new Terms of Service that Vertical Scope are attempting to retrospectively apply to our content.  I am forced to manually replace my content as, at time of editing, their representative has instructed moderators not to delete posts or accounts when users request it, and Vertical Scope have implied that they will deal with account deletion requests by anonymising accounts, which would leave personally identifying information in my posts.

I joined under the previous ownership and have posted over the years under different Terms of Service.  I do not consent to my name, content, or intellectual properties being used by Vertical Scope or any other entity that they sell or licence my data to.


----------



## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

*This comment is not directed at any author in particular! I'm talking in general.*

The type of advice I'd take from a given author depends on their track record. I'd take career advice from an author with a solid sales record over many years. I'd take advertising advice from an author who managed to buy their way to the top while still making a profit. Newsletter advice from an author who is effectively using that avenue to sales.

Would I seek advice from an author who appears to have had a random breakout hit? Probably not.

I like it when people share their sales figures and results of promos. I've used info collected from Kboards to pick and choose promotions for my own work, and discussions about AMS and Facebook ads are invaluable. If we shout people down for sharing anything, we're just putting everyone off sharing their own data points.


----------



## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I haven't published for a few years due to life getting in the way. Thus, my sales are pretty much flat-lined at the moment. I still find other people sharing their successes as inspiring as I've always found it.
> 
> I like to read about people doing well. I get to feel happy for them, and I get to feel that maybe - once I'm in a position to write and publish again - I might eventually succeed too.


That was my situation exactly - 3-4 years away from the game, flat-lined sales, nothing new to publish. When I stopped, in 2013/14, advertising wasn't even a thing for me.

Then I came back to KBoards in February this year, picked up the current trends in ads and keywords and so on, wrote and released five new titles, and my figures have been improving by the month. (A lot of that from backlist, not the new releases. Covers were refreshed, blurbs re-written, promos booked, etc, etc.)


----------



## Diana Kimpton (Feb 19, 2018)

Traditionally published authors can't tell you monthly figures on sales because they don't know them. All I get from my trad publishers is a twice yearly royalty statement that comes three months after the end of the relevant 6 months. Also it's harder to equate sales with income as the amount per book varies on the deal the publisher gives to the retail outlet - standard royalties only apply to standard discounts. High discount sales earn the author much less. I've sold more than a million trad-published books but I'm definitely not a millionaire.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Simon Haynes said:


> That was my situation exactly - 3-4 years away from the game, flat-lined sales, nothing new to publish. When I stopped, in 2013/14, advertising wasn't even a thing for me.
> 
> Then I came back to KBoards in February this year, picked up the current trends in ads and keywords and so on, wrote and released five new titles, and my figures have been improving by the month. (A lot of that from backlist, not the new releases. Covers were refreshed, blurbs re-written, promos booked, etc, etc.)


Thanks for sharing that - I'm hoping to start up again later this year, so it's good to know!


----------



## levz (May 11, 2018)

Simon Haynes said:


> The type of advice I'd take from a given author depends on their track record. I'd take career advice from an author with a solid sales record over many years. I'd take advertising advice from an author who managed to buy their way to the top while still making a profit. Newsletter advice from an author who is effectively using that avenue to sales.


I can't disagree, and would also add, writing/craft advice from someone whose work you yourself like/admire/aspire to, or feel in whatever way to you - _personally_ - is 'good', or engaging, or well-crafted, or well-received, or _whatever-else-you're-looking-for_, writing.


----------



## georgette (Sep 4, 2013)

Please add my voice to the list of people who are EXTREMELY grateful for the early indies who posted their sales figures. I am the kind of person who is happy when I see other people's success, and I try to learn from it rather than being bitter or jealous.  Sitting around sulking and thinking "It's not fair that they're making so much money and my wonderful books aren't selling!" gets you nowhere.  Instead, what I did was analyze the bestsellers in my chosen genre to see how they did what they did.  I was making $12 an hour at the time and sleeping on the couch of a two bedroom house so my kids could have their own rooms.  I started making $3k to $5k right away, which was a life-changer at the time,  and  I became a six figure author within about a year and a half.  

That first year and I half, I kept trying to earn more money, and it didn't work right away, and I kept trying different genres. What I did NOT do was have a hissy fit every time I saw someone post their great earnings.  Instead, I appreciated it and tried to learn from it. 

I have continued to make a very good living with my writing by keeping my eye on the market, changing and adapting when needed, and by publishing very quickly.  

So, again - thanks to the indie pioneers who blazed a path for the rest of us!


----------



## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

I was never helped by data posts about earnings. The authors were either doing things I couldn't do as a writer or got BBs early on that helped build their sales so the numbers didn't really help me. (They didn't hurt either so I'm not suggesting they should stop posting!) 

Best advice I ever read here when I was really struggling, (it saved my sanity and lifted a mountain of depression off my shoulders) was by a successful anonymous author: He said if a book falls flat wrap up the series and move on. Don't try to save it, don't angst over it, just pack it in and write the next thing. 

Why this changed my thinking, I don't know. They were the right words at the right time. I stopped feeling like writing was a curse and more like an adventure. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you don't.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

mawnster said:


> Reading about the earnings of others inspired me. "I too can make 5 figures in a month, maybe!!!" I would think to myself.
> 
> And lo', it has become a reality.


Hey, watch that braggadocio. Might make people feel bad.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

mawnster said:


> Reading about the earnings of others inspired me. "I too can make 5 figures in a month, maybe!!!" I would think to myself.
> 
> And lo', it has become a reality.


----------



## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Shelley K said:


> Hey, watch that braggadocio. Might make people feel bad.


Not sure whether that's facetious or straight, but either way...



On the other hand, nobody can "make" an adult soul feel bad.


----------



## 102069 (May 15, 2018)

Cassie Leigh said:


> One reason for sharing numbers is to give a realistic picture of what is/isn't possible.


This. Both setting goals and managing expectations are important, and to do that, you need to know what reasonable numbers look like.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

David VanDyke said:


> Not sure whether that's facetious or straight, but either way...


At this point it's weariness and disbelief at some of the things I've read more than anything.



> On the other hand, nobody can "make" an adult soul feel bad.


If somebody hit me with a taser, they would most definitely make me feel bad. (But I take your point.  )


----------



## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

The reason indies post their numbers is because no one else will do it for them. Trad authors have their publishers announcing it on their behalf so it looks less boastful. Or the publisher will send the author gifts when they make huge sales numbers and the author can post on socials "Oh, look at this lovely bottle of champagne my publisher sent me for selling a million books, aren't they sweet". Again, less boastful yet the author still gets the feels. I have no publisher so I have to post it on my own and I'm proud of my numbers, I want people to know how many I've sold. As others have posted above, I'm grateful for Konrath for posting his numbers. Without seeing what was possible, I would never have ventured into indie publishing.

You can be sure I'm going to post on my socials when I've sold 1 million books (which I'll pass this month). As to income, I made 7 figures in 2017 and am chugging along nicely to make that again this year (Aussie dollars). My expenses are 3% of that, and go mostly to my audiobook narrators (about 80%), editing and covers. My advertising dollars goes mostly to Bookbub featured deals. I've dabbled in AMS and FB ads etc, but spent less than $1,000 for the year because I get terrible returns and kill them early. It's definitely possible to be successful without spending a huge amount on ads, but it takes time to build up a catalogue and to gain the trust of fans so they'll stick with you, book after book, and follow you to a new series. I've been at this since January 2011 and every year has seen an improvement on the last yet my advertising spend has remained almost the same each year. Don't be disheartened by all the gurus who tell you to spend $$$. Spend only what you're comfortable spending and let the books do the rest. The big income may not happen within the first year (or 5) but if you build up a big catalogue of consistently engaging books, you should see some return. The other thing I should note is that most of my success has come off the back of 1 series with a few others backing it up nicely but still coming a distant 2nd in terms of sales. When that series ends, my income will probably decrease accordingly unless my next series does freakishly well. I don't expect to ride this high forever.


----------



## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Another in the camp of those who appreciate the people who post numbers. Sure, when I'm feeling down, those numbers make me feel bad, but on those days I don't read those type of posts. When I'm feeling good, the posts help me get myself motivated, and remind me that it can be done?

My favourites are those who didn't hit it right out of the gate, but who started out slow, and built their way up!


----------



## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

CJArcher said:


> The reason indies post their numbers is because no one else will do it for them. Trad authors have their publishers announcing it on their behalf so it looks less boastful. Or the publisher will send the author gifts when they make huge sales numbers and the author can post on socials "Oh, look at this lovely bottle of champagne my publisher sent me for selling a million books, aren't they sweet". Again, less boastful yet the author still gets the feels. I have no publisher so I have to post it on my own and I'm proud of my numbers, I want people to know how many I've sold. As others have posted above, I'm grateful for Konrath for posting his numbers. Without seeing what was possible, I would never have ventured into indie publishing.
> 
> You can be sure I'm going to post on my socials when I've sold 1 million books (which I'll pass this month). As to income, I made 7 figures in 2017 and am chugging along nicely to make that again this year (Aussie dollars). My expenses are 3% of that, and go mostly to my audiobook narrators (about 80%), editing and covers. My advertising dollars goes mostly to Bookbub featured deals. I've dabbled in AMS and FB ads etc, but spent less than $1,000 for the year because I get terrible returns and kill them early. It's definitely possible to be successful without spending a huge amount on ads, but it takes time to build up a catalogue and to gain the trust of fans so they'll stick with you, book after book, and follow you to a new series. I've been at this since January 2011 and every year has seen an improvement on the last yet my advertising spend has remained almost the same each year. Don't be disheartened by all the gurus who tell you to spend $$$. Spend only what you're comfortable spending and let the books do the rest. The big income may not happen within the first year (or 5) but if you build up a big catalogue of consistently engaging books, you should see some return. The other thing I should note is that most of my success has come off the back of 1 series with a few others backing it up nicely but still coming a distant 2nd in terms of sales. When that series ends, my income will probably decrease accordingly unless my next series does freakishly well. I don't expect to ride this high forever.


That's very encouraging, thank you! .. I was starting to wonder.

Beautiful covers and books btw. I can't wait to read them and they are an excellent example of what people mean when they talk about the look inside, blurbs and covers!


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

I think some of it is based on our own individual personalities and the subcultures in which we grew up. 

Here in America we tend to idolize the rich and successful perhaps, and in other places like Australia they have the 'tall poppy syndrome'. Those may be extreme examples, but they are examples just the same of how different people may react to stories of success. Just because someone is a writer or author doesn't mean it is going to erase who they are, or what social or cultural environment they were raised in.

I understand why some people give out their success stories. In their view they are encouraging others: "If I did it, so can you." I get that. 

But hopefully those who are that forthright with their success stories understand that not everyone is open to as much of it as they would like them to be, and it isn't necessarily because of jealousy -- not everyone is raised the same. And the way you were raised often is hard to kick.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Didn't we used to have a place here to post our sales in increments, like 100k 200k, etc..? 

I liked that because when I reached the next goal, I could gloat a little. And for those who didn't want to hear it, they didn't have to look. Where'd that go? When authors reach the next level, it's cool to be able to tell others, even if it's that first 100 bucks. It feels good, and it should. No matter how much we make, all of us work very hard and should be proud of our accomplishments.


----------



## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I am going to respond to this post with the one I wrote for this forum on September 4, 2016, called "4 years, 20 books, $1.43 million, 700,000 sold: Writing for love & money."
> 
> Here is something I have never said about this post. I wrote it when I was eating breakfast by myself at my first RWA. I thought I was All That. I found out I was not. nobody knew who I was, and I didn't know anybody. I met a few people and had a few flattering things happen. I was cool, right?
> 
> ...


This ^

Very well said and well written Usedtoposthere and exactly what most people need to hear.

I don't have 1400.00 (or 400.. or 14 for that matter.. lol) going in but I also am not looking to make the same numbers as I see here, my goal is pretty specific and intended for one thing and one thing only. Not that a little extra wouldn't be nice, but to be honest, it's kind of intimidating to someone who has always lived month to month struggling to get by, even with several college degrees, to see such high numbers. That alone is what screams failure to me. Not that it can't be done, but that it can't be done BY ME! The universe would tremble and spit me back out before that happens, and my past luck has made that very clear.. lol!

I dance, I sing, I scream in joy every time I see a success story on here, but it also hurts the heart just a litte, somewhere deep inside.. and that same doubt hits me as I think it does all of us.. just like Usedtoposthere pointed out. Do I want to stop seeing the posts of success because of that moment? No, not even in the slightest. I would also hate to see anyone discouraged from helping others who need it because of a few who don't appreciate that help. 
I think the worst part is seeing the conflicting reports of "it can be done with great covers, blurbs and writing if you can churn out enough books or series".. or whatever.. and then the mocking or jeering that it can't be done without sinking a ton of money into it at the same time.. MY hope is that with the 3 former choices, I will make enough to put back into the books a little at a time.. but if that isn't going to happen I will never get to even my smaller goal but I will also never stop writing. In the meantime, I really hope people get a grip and stop the backbiting, its harder to watch then anything else around here.

ETA: Doesn't anyone here make a moderate range like four - five figures a year? Is that more common then the big all out winning stories, or is it all or nothing?


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2018)

Shelley K said:


> Hey, watch that braggadocio. Might make people feel bad.


LOL I know you're joking but... if someone feels bad about my earnings, they can kiss my formerly-homeless ass. Seriously. I've worked so hard for a long time to get where I am, with very very little money to spend on marketing or things like that. I've also helped a crap ton of other authors giving them the insight into how I did what I did without stupid black-hat tricks or oodles of marketing money. I came from the ashes, horridly sick, not able to keep the lights on in my house, and on the edge of losing everything. Having been living on the charity of other people in my early twenties, kicked out of an apartment because of an inability to pay rent... I have sympathy for people who are struggling. I don't have sympathy for people who are mad at people for succeeding. Blep. This got more ranty than I wanted to be. I didn't mean to be ranty!



Anarchist said:


>


lololol this gif made me laugh a LOT.


----------



## jmb3 (Aug 2, 2016)

I started my indie publishing career in May 2016 and shockingly, by word of mouth alone, hit it big with my debut novel. I had the opposite thing happen for me. Instead of building my way to the top, I started there and everything has been downhill since.   Okay. Not really. I'm doing well for myself in large part because of the success my series has seen in audiobook. But in ebook, I've never been able to get close to recreating the success of my first book. One reason is that I lost a huge chunk of my early readers by not having a mailing list, facebook, or website for them to go (my website just went up last month- 2 years after the fact). Because of the unusual way I started, I think I have a warped view of what success is and have basically had to learn this business backwards. Now, I'm slowly building my reader base and doing things the way they should have been done from the start. I wouldn't change my experience for the world but it truly was wacky.


----------



## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Pandorra said:


> ETA: Doesn't anyone here make a moderate range like four - five figures a year? Is that more common then the big all out winning stories, or is it all or nothing?


Lots of us tiddlers out here. I've been making five figures a year since 2015, and each year it creeps up a bit, but I don't know that I'll ever reach six figures. And for those who like the net/gross details, those numbers are gross, and I spend 50% of my income on production costs and promotion. Yes, that's a lot, but I'm a hobbyist and I like to plough the profits back into the books, especially audiobooks which cost me an arm and a leg and sell maybe three copies a month.


----------



## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

Pandorra said:


> I think the worst part is seeing the conflicting reports of "it can be done with great covers, blurbs and writing if you can churn out enough books or series".. or whatever.. and then the mocking or jeering that it can't be done without sinking a ton of money into it at the same time.. MY hope is that with the 3 former choices, I will make enough to put back into the books a little at a time.. but if that isn't going to happen I will never get to even my smaller goal but I will also never stop writing. In the meantime, I really hope people get a grip and stop the backbiting, its harder to watch then anything else around here.
> 
> ETA: Doesn't anyone here make a moderate range like four - five figures a year? Is that more common then the big all out winning stories, or is it all or nothing?


In 2016 and 2017 I made well under $1000 for each entire year, with 12 novels in print, ticking over very slowly. I hadn't published anything since 2014.

2018 looked like a repeat, until I sat down in Feb and wrote the 8th novel in my series. That came out mid-march, but I was only expecting sales to die-hard fans. (I was right.)

Then I started advertising the first book in the series (perma-free since 2011), never spending more than I was earning in royalties. I also updated the covers on all my works, through three different variations, as mentioned in an earlier post on this thread.

I also started work on a new series.

Jan '18: $40 for the month
Feb '18: $30 for the month
Mar '18: $350 for the month (all spent on ads and promos) (New release)
April '18: $900 for the month (1/2 spent on ads) (New release)
(Started work on my mailing list. Worked hard on newsletter swaps. Reader magnets. Instafreebie.)
May '18: $1500 for the month, 1/2 spent on ads and promos. (Another new release)

June is harder to calculate because I took my major series wide late May. Cribbing together figures from all the different bookstores and not including reporting delays:

June '18: $350 in the first 5 days. Spending roughly $25/day on ads.

The ad spend is considerable, in my opinion, especially as I've never been one to advertise. I think it was Michael Cooper (Help, my Facebook Ads Suck) who said if you could put $1 into an investment and get $2 back, who wouldn't? I've embraced that philosophy, and instead of seeing ads as a leech on my earnings, I now realise I owe my earnings to the ads.

Ironically I spent 20 years in small business, where advertising was crucial and never begrudged. Applying the same mentality to my ebooks has worked very well.

I'm not sharing the figures to brag. I don't think I've ever shared figures before, and I'm not comfortable with it. I just wanted to share one possible outcome from a lot of hard work, and what I consider to be cost-effective advertising.

I don't expect my sales to keep climbing, as I think they've reached a plateau for my particular niche in the market. In fact, I expect them to start sliding, as I've already hit all the big promo sites (barring Bookbub), and there will be diminishing returns ahead.

To counter this, I have a non-fic title out later this month, the third in my new series is also due around that time, and I'm about to start work on a completely new novel in a different genre.

At the beginning I was setting up AMS ads with a budget of $1 a day, and I thought $7/week for advertising was a lot. (As if AMS ever spends the daily budget ...) I moved on to $5/day on highly targeted facebook ads, cheap Bookbub CPC ads, then $20/day on FB across 4 different markets, and of course paid promos like ENT, Freebooksy and so on. Very slow, gradual progress.


----------



## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

PaulineMRoss said:


> And for those who like the net/gross details, those numbers are gross, and I spend 50% of my income on production costs and promotion.


Yep, same ratio here. It's just a shame we have to pay the ad bills now and get the royalties so much later!


----------



## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Pandorra said:


> ETA: Doesn't anyone here make a moderate range like four - five figures a year? Is that more common then the big all out winning stories, or is it all or nothing?


I've made five figures a year every year since 2010. Admittedly if I don't get my butt in gear and write more I may drop back from that level soon, but for me writing is a part time job to supplement retirement income.


----------



## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

Pandorra said:


> ETA: Doesn't anyone here make a moderate range like four - five figures a year? Is that more common then the big all out winning stories, or is it all or nothing?


Yes, probably around (redacted) indies hit 10K. Not all of them post at kboards.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

cadle-sparks said:


> I'm always shocked how much the government wants of what remains.


Don't get me started, Lou. It's unnerving to see a grown man oscillate between rage and despair.


----------



## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

>To see how many writers cracked $10K, 25K, 50K, and 100K in 2016

That's two years ago, and life for writers was better then!

I found those figures hideously depressing. Ten thousand a year -- gross? Wow. My expenses are nearly that much, and I don't advertise. The text figures 9,900 authors taking in 10K or more, with some duplicated (pen names). That is out of MILLIONS of self-pubbers, which more dismal than even I had imagined. 

Disregarding the issue of FICA (Social Security etc) tax, most individuals earning $10K don't even have to file an income tax return. The poverty level for an individual is about $12K. (And that's after expenses!)


----------



## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

notjohn said:


> >
> 
> That's two years ago, and life for writers was better then!


There are three times as many millionaire indies at Amazon now than there were 2 years ago--and that doesn't count the few seven-figure indies who have their books with Amazon imprints now, so started indie and ended up tradpub through Amazon cherrypicking them. There are more people competing in 2018, yes, but overall, that figure suggests indies are doing better, not worse.

Again, I'd refer interested newbies to this article, which while not based on all figures as AE's reports were, says something true and important about how to get to six figures: https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/2017/06/07/100k-author/ (spoiler alert: write and publish over 30 books.)


----------



## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Simon Haynes said:


> In 2016 and 2017 I made well under $1000 for each entire year, with 12 novels in print, ticking over very slowly. I hadn't published anything since 2014.
> 
> 2018 looked like a repeat, until I sat down in Feb and wrote the 8th novel in my series. That came out mid-march, but I was only expecting sales to die-hard fans. (I was right.)
> 
> ...


I am very glad you did share, Thank you! This makes sense, and this is what I am hoping for. I agree that every business requires an investment if you want to get off the ground but putting back half of the revenue to advertise makes a lot more sense then going in spending grocery money meant for your kids .. I would think if you nailed the other aspects.. blurb cover etc ..then you should make at least a little to return to the equation and I am making sales, just not a lot of them without advertising through anything but a few limited free promos.

I think I started worrying to soon, I originally planned to finish the two series I have started plus one more before I worried about the rest of this...


----------



## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

Pandorra said:


> I am very glad you did share, Thank you! This makes sense, and this is what I am hoping for. I agree that every business requires an investment if you want to get off the ground but putting back half of the revenue to advertise makes a lot more sense then going in spending grocery money meant for your kids .. I would think if you nailed the other aspects.. blurb cover etc ..then you should make at least a little to return to the equation and I am making sales, just not a lot of them without advertising through anything but a few limited free promos.
> 
> I think I started worrying to soon, I originally planned to finish the two series I have started plus one more before I worried about the rest of this...


Yes, thank you for sharing this, Simon. It makes complete sense to me too, and I have been through some very similar ups and downs in sales over the years.


----------



## The Wyoming Kid (Jun 18, 2017)

Pandorra said:


> Doesn't anyone here make a moderate range like four - five figures a year? Is that more common then the big all out winning stories, or is it all or nothing?


I entered the indie world in 2011. Since then I have published 15 titles, mostly in KU. My total Amazon income for the seven+ years has been $24,908.48. With the few titles that are wide, you can probably add another $1000 to that. Seven years. My best year was 2016, when I earned $11,308.15, almost half of my seven-year total. My next-best year was 2017, when I hauled in $6225.63. These figures reflect digital sales only. Print and audio are virtually non-existent.

An in-depth look would show the following breakdown of my catalog:

Series one / 3 novels / each about 50k words
Series two / 1 novel, two novelettes / novel at 60k words, each novelette 12-15k words
Series three / 3 novels / each about 90k words
Two standalone novels / one @ 50k words, one @60k words
Three individually-sold short stories ranging from 2k-8k words
One short story collection

My covers are good, and I have numerous blurbs, including a few from famous trad-pubbed authors.

I spent a lot of time over the years trying to assemble a mailing list. It never exceeded 100 names.

I have invested a lot of money on advertising, including three Bookbubs (@$1000+ each) for one of the novels. I was led to believe, from reading others' tales of wild success, that one Bookbub ad would send a lightning bolt through my entire catalog, resulting in at least 1500 sales. Plus, according to legend, the novel being promoted would get legs, assuring it of a long life in the upper reaches of Zon rankings. My average sales for each of these Bookbubs was about 350, and sales promptly fell off the table after six or seven days. I have to admit, it gets under my skin when someone posts numbers for their six-figure year (or month) and casually adds, "And I did (very little) (no) advertising."

I have recently gotten an agent, who is representing my two newest novels, the first two entries in a supposed four-book series. I'm taking a shot at trad-pubbing because I'm tired. Tired of the herculean effort I have put in over the years with nearly zero ROI. Now, this agent is not even in New York, so I'm not too optimistic on her chances of landing me anything. But I'll give her a fair shot. If nothing happens, then my plan is to put both of those new novels up on Amazon just to get them out of my sight, and then walk away from the whole shebang.


----------



## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

The Wyoming Kid said:


> My total Amazon income for the seven+ years has been $24,908.48.


I deeply appreciate you posting this, especially the part about Bookbub. It provides me some needed perspective right now.


----------



## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

cadle-sparks said:


> There are three times as many millionaire indies at Amazon now than there were 2 years ago--and that doesn't count the few seven-figure indies who have their books with Amazon imprints now, so started indie and ended up tradpub through Amazon cherrypicking them. There are more people competing in 2018, yes, but overall, that figure suggests indies are doing better, not worse.
> 
> Again, I'd refer interested newbies to this article, which while not based on all figures as AE's reports were, says something true and important about how to get to six figures: https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/2017/06/07/100k-author/ (spoiler alert: write and publish over 30 books.)


So there are more millionaires... But what about the average indie publishers?

Has their lot improved or lessened -- that would be more pertinent.


----------



## Guest (Jun 15, 2018)

cadle-sparks said:


> There are three times as many millionaire indies at Amazon now than there were 2 years ago--


This doesn't really mean anything. The overall number of millionaires in the U.S. has increased as well, yet the median income in the U.S. is around $30,000, a significant drop over the last few years.

Without knowing what the median income for authors is, a lot of this is a moot point. There are a few sites that have compiled data on author earnings, but as those all depend on self-reporting they are skewed high because those folks are the most likely to report. And Amazon isn't providing that data because Amazon doesn't provide ANYTHING without filtering it to the point of uselessness and then spinning it to fit their agenda.


----------



## Michael Parnell (Aug 25, 2014)

As other posters have indicated, traditionally published authors (and their publishers) cite awards, bestseller status, etc. to promote their work. Publishers--and most businesses--closely guard information related to money; it could affect their leverage when negotiating with retailers, suppliers, other authors, etc. Protection of confidential and/or proprietary information has been standard practice since Mr. Slate opened Slate Rock & Gravel Company.   

I like all the posts about sales, as well as those about marketing, design, genre, etc., and I appreciate authors who are willing to share, especially when they take time out of their busy schedules to write some of the long, detailed, informative posts I've read here. 

I love success stories, and I root for the writers who are still trying, still planning, still learning, still striving toward whatever level of success they desire. I love a fighting spirit. I have little time for whiners and naysayers. Nothing great or even worthwhile is ever achieved by negativity.


----------

