# How Many of You Submit to Traditional Publishers and/or Agents?



## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

Kboards is an indie place, right?

I've been thinking a lot about my recent publishing experience and my path going forward, wondering if the next book isn't the one I submit to an agent or reputable small press (for various reasons, but primarily as an experiment). I did a post about this: http://belindaf.blogspot.com/2016/01/publishing-decisions-indie-or.html, which is more or less me talking to myself about the pros and cons of remaining indie. It boils down to all the risk (expense), for all the reward (or not), with all the control. It's been a good path, but I'm wondering if I have a breakout novel in me yet that I need help reaching a larger audience. Does anyone else go back and forth on this? What are your reasons for staying indie? Have you ever tried other publishing options?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Money is why I stay indie. I like it.
The truth is, most book deals are terrible for traditionally published authors. When you take out the big dogs like King and Roberts, the vast majority of traditionally published authors don't make enough to live on and have day jobs. I don't want a day job.
The advance on first books for traditionally published authors tend to run in the $5,000-$10,000 range, and a lot of them do not earn out. You get paltry returns on royalties for that and even if you're a big hit, you have no control. Look at Andy Weir. He did The Martian, for crying out loud, and publishers turned down his next book idea. He talked about it in a podcast. i actually think traditional publishing is more volatile in an instant because you could be dropped at any time.
Now, the Amazon imprints seem to get things better. They're not technically traditional publishing, but they're close enough in my book. They don't guarantee money, though, and they've had a number of duds under their belt. There is no one out there that can actually promise money.
The control factor in indie publishing allows you to adapt to current book trends quickly and for someone who is not a mega name, I honestly think the money is better for more people. I understand some people still want the validation of traditional publishing, and more power to them, but I prefer the money.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

I haven't. I have an agent for scripts, and my experiences in that arena is what made me decide to try out this indie lark for my prose first. I will probably have a go at some point, as I think an ideal place to be would be a hybrid author; publishing mainly indie with a trad book every year.


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

Strangely enough, it's been a few years since I've sent anything to a regular publisher. Two of my books were published by regular publishers, and my independent stuff does so much better than those.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Now, the Amazon imprints seem to get things better. They're not technically traditional publishing, but they're close enough in my book. They don't guarantee money, though, and they've had a number of duds under their belt. There is no one out there that can actually promise money.
> The control factor in indie publishing allows you to adapt to current book trends quickly and for someone who is not a mega name, I honestly think the money is better for more people. I understand some people still want the validation of traditional publishing, and more power to them, but I prefer the money.


I thought that, then I was published by an Amazon imprint. They do a lot right for the right books or the right authors, but being with them didn't do anything for my sales. I don't blame APub for my book not selling. It's the book not the publisher, but I decided to give them a go in the hopes of getting big advertising. When that didn't happen, I realized the whole thing was for nothing. Hence why I'm back to the drawing board. Mileage may vary.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I submit short stories to anthologies across small presses and larger publishers. I tend to toss longer books out to specialist publishers before I consider self-publishing. For both my novel-length translations, I walked away from contracts. I won't say more than that, as one of those was quite acrimonious, but, well, you can see I won from the fact the book's in my signature.

I don't make much money from self-publishing, and once I've written a book, I couldn't give two hoots about controlling anything, so I remain very open to approaching, and approaches from, the traditional publishing landscape. I know a lot of people in the industry (hell, I run the commercial wing of one of the UK's largest membership magazines), and they're awfully pleasant. To be honest, I eye-roll quite a lot when the _self-publishing 4eva will kill the dead tree philistines who turned down my vampire erotica_ brigade get proper foaming-at-the-mouth crazy.


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## Nicki Leigh (Aug 25, 2011)

The only time I'd consider going trad is with children's books as getting traction from self-pub is hard in that area (I'm talking picture books, early readers and chapter books).

I've had thirteen books out with various erom publishers. Some did well and others completely flopped. Those flops were held hostage for two years. Two years I could've been making money off of them.

So, unless my top publisher offers on something, it gets self-published.

In most cases, it isn't worth betting on high sales with a publisher who will have rights to that work for several years.

At least when you self-publish, you control the marketing, pricing etc so you can make adjustments when needed.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

belindaf said:


> What are your reasons for staying indie? Have you ever tried other publishing options?


I spent several years doing the tradpub/agent submission thing. I figured there had to be a better way to reach readers than trying to get through a bunch of gatekeepers. I love the control of indie publishing and I love knowing that any success or failure is on me. I'm not interested in waiting up to two years after approval for a book to sit on shelves for three months and then get remaindered or stripped and pulped and get added to the churn.

Like Amanda said, as indies we can be far more flexible, faster than is possible if you sell a book to most traditional publishers. I wouldn't say no to a tradpub deal if it came along someday, but I'm not actively seeking one out. For me, focusing on indie is where my interests and goals lie.

That being said, I still submit short stories to some paying markets, because they're a small time investment and most of the worthwhile markets take e-submissions.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

Nicki Leigh said:


> The only time I'd consider going trad is with children's books as getting traction from self-pub is hard in that area (I'm talking picture books, early readers and chapter books).
> 
> I've had thirteen books out with various erom publishers. Some did well and others completely flopped. Those flops were held hostage for two years. Two years I could've been making money off of them.
> 
> ...


Agreed. That price control issue is huge because my Apub title is stuck at $3.99, has a brand new sequel, and I can't promotionally price book one. I am going to do a countdown deal on book two next month, but fear that promoting the second in the series isn't going to yield much interest. After reading everyone's responses, I feel solidified that sticking indie (or maybe doing one more experiment with this particular small press) is probably the way I'll go. If nothing else, I like being able to make changes when something isn't working. It's not always the book that doesn't sell, but the packaging or price point. I'm focusing more this year on boosting what I've already published in spurts. Sometimes I feel spread too thin and traditional publishing seems like a way to take some of the pressure off. Since I hear lots of trad folks complaining they still have to do their own marketing, I'm probably wrong in thinking that.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## GP Hudson (Sep 16, 2013)

I take a lot of pride in having never sent out a query letter. From the moment I learned about indie publishing, I knew it was for me. I have an entrepreneurial background, so going indie is a much better fit. 

That said, I will likely try trad publishing at some point in the future, but not for any of the popular reasons people do it. I would do it only as a way to grow my brand. Through a trad publisher I can get access to distribution and eyeballs that are currently unavailable. That access can help grow my entire business, so I see that as a bigger benefit than how much they can sell that individual book.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

I think about this all the time. i have some traditionally published and some indie. Everyone below has covered most of the important points, but here are my conclusions.
1) There is little advantage in doing small press--you lose control without gaining anything. Their ability to provide exposure is minimal at best (sorry small press--I do love you and think you are wonderful, but...). The biggest problems are that you can't control price so sales and promos are difficult and they tend to price high. Also--some of the covers are horrific. (This is based upon my experiences.) Some covers are good, but some are terrible and you don't have much say about it. At least if you're indie, you can reject bad covers.
2) I do think the big traditional companies are worth it for exposure and "legitimacy." I've had readers tell me they won't read indie. This is particularly true of mystery readers it seems. But most trads require an agent (I've had 3 agents) which can be a good or a bad experience. The process certainly takes time and you have no control over anything, so your ability to do promos is kind of limited to things can be a real time-sink like book signings (unless you're hugely famous, book signings have to be the most depressing, demoralizing time-sink there is--of course, that's just my experience, ha, ha.)

I do think that hybrids have the best of all worlds as they get legitimacy and readers from many venues not open to indies (like the few bookstores remaining and some of the review sites only take trad published works), plus they have the freedom to pursue other works that they can control. But when I say this, I mean trad pubbed with the big name publishers, not small publishers because small publishers have many of the same disadvantages as being indie in that they often can't get their books into bookstores, etc.

So while I may pursue some trad options in the future--I would only do so with the "big name" trad publishers because they are generally more successful in providing better advances and audience expanding opportunities.

My opinions may seem a little harsh, but that is "where I'm at" at the moment based upon fifteen years of experience with agents and publishers of various shapes and sizes. I, personally, found small press to have all the disadvantages of indie publishing with few (none, really) of the advantages of control over covers, price, and editors. And some small press have extended the number of years they must retain rights to your book, so you need to be very cautious about that.


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## Megan Crewe (Oct 8, 2015)

I started out in traditional publishing--I've trad published seven books (one of which went OOP and I've since re-released on my own) and have an agent who's continuing to submit to publishers for me. Partly it's because, as I've talked about at some length in other threads on this subject, it's difficult to reach my audience through self publishing without much access to the school & library market or bookstores (I write YA; a lot of teens still rely on print books). Partly it's because when I was starting out (I first started querying agents in the mid 2000s), self publishing was nowhere near as viable as it is today. And partly it's because, if I have the option, I'd rather get paid up front and know editing, design, marketing, etc. will be taken care of for me so I can focus on writing the next thing. People mention money a lot when it comes to this decision, but trad publishing has actually been pretty good to me there. I'm not a big name--I'm surprised when someone _has_ heard of me and not at all when they haven't.  But I'm writing full time thanks to past book deals. The books I've self published so far--my re-released debut, a story collection following one of my trilogies, and two books in an adult series under a pen name--are barely making me peanuts so far.

But, you know, it's not an either/or decision. I've started self publishing and plan to continue self publishing around my trad career, to experiment with books outside of YA, to keep up regular releases (I'm going to self publish a new YA title this year because I don't have a trad pub title scheduled), to see what's possible. I write fast; I figure I may as well make use of every option available to me.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> So while I may pursue some trad options in the future--I would only do so with the "big name" trad publishers because they are generally more successful in providing better advances and audience expanding opportunities.


This is what I've seen.

I do wonder why traditional *print* publishers don't take a page from places like Tantor's book. Tantor is an audio company that works with indie authors to get their books into audio. They pay small to no advance, and the royalties for the indie are smaller: 10%-25%, but they also assume all risk and help with legitimacy/advertising. They like working with indies because, as they told me, when indies promote their ebooks, the audio book sales go up too.

I would love to have a traditional print publisher pick up my print books and market them and leave me the ebooks to promote. It seems like we could have a beneficial relationship ... they'd have to invest less in me, I'd also be happy to take smaller royalties from my print books than traditionally published authors as long as they tried to get me into Target and I got to keep my ebook royalties, and control.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2016)

belindaf said:


> It's the book not the publisher, but I decided to give them a go in the hopes of getting big advertising. When that didn't happen, I realized the whole thing was for nothing...


If you think another publisher will pour effort into advertising your books, let me burst that bubble now. They won't. Unless you have a significant deal (6 figures plus) and the publisher wants to recoup their money, you will find little effort expended by publishers on your behalf. You will give up control & royalties and still be responsible for marketing & advertising. I was with a publisher and the "marketing" effort I got was a tweet on release day and that was it.


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## J.J. Fitch (Jun 17, 2015)

For me, I think it's about the prestige.  I know that sounds snobbish  

But, I just graduated with my MFA in Writing.  While self-publishing sometimes would come into conversation, it was kind of a dirty word among the academia.  In fact, during one of the last lectures I went to before I graduated, the speaker got up there and said "if you self-publish, you're wasting your degree."

So, if I want to teach at a college in the future, I need to traditionally publish.  But, I want to be a hybrid author.  I want the money and control of self-publishing and the prestige of the traditional publishing (according to academia standards).  So, I plan to do both


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

Megan, good to hear from the other side (and I agree that there's a genre element to this decision, too). I love your covers BTW. Tilly, I didn't expect to get a TV commercial or anything,  but I did expect a good bit of email marketing because, you know, that's kind of what they're known for. I like the control of indie. I do. I think there has to be merit both ways and am glad to hear from those making the hybrid thing work. Thanks for weighing in everyone.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

J.J. Fitch said:


> For me, I think it's about the prestige. I know that sounds snobbish
> 
> But, I just graduated with my MFA in Writing. While self-publishing sometimes would come into conversation, it was kind of a dirty word among the academia. In fact, during one of the last lectures I went to before I graduated, the speaker got up there and said "if you self-publish, you're wasting your degree."
> 
> So if I want to teach at a college in the future, I need to traditionally publish. But I want to be a hybrid author. I want the money and control of self-publishing and the prestige of the traditional publishing (according to academia standards). So I plan to do both


Oh how the old way holds on to their traditions. That's pretty funny, but I do get your point. I was really proud that the imprint was impressed enough with something about FATAL REACTION to pick it up. The validation blinded me for a hot second.


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## J.J. Fitch (Jun 17, 2015)

belindaf said:


> Oh how the old way holds on to their traditions. That's pretty funny, but I do get your point. I was really proud that the imprint was impressed enough with something about FATAL REACTION to pick it up. The validation blinded me for a hot second.


Yes...I side-eyed him a lot when he said that, but that's the overall impression I've had during my time there (not that I felt it was wasted, I definitely became a better writer and worked with some very talented people).

I've read some traditionally published works that I thought were crap. And I've read self-published works that are wonderful. Unfortunately, that (imaginary) stamp of approval isn't usually given to self-published works. As previous posters have mentioned, many readers won't venture into indy books. So, if being a hybrid helps me bridge that gap, I'll do it.


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## RomanceWriter77 (Mar 10, 2014)

In reference to your concern about the expense of production, I've found that if I plan out a series ahead of time and write the blurbs, titles, and subtitles, approaching a cover artist with a multi-book order that's ready-to-go gets me a very significant discount. Same with editors. I did a sample edit with an editor, contacted other authors they'd worked with so that I knew she was professional, and then we worked out a discount per title since I was booking multiple titles with her.

It is a significant investment up front, but the savings were still very good and I knew I was going to finish the series and publish it. If you aren't writing to pay the bills, I'd suggest taking the money you've earned from your Apub title and sinking it into buying covers and securing editing in batches.

You could start by writing shorter lines (start with a trilogy, then 5 books in another series, then 7) so that you use your profits from previous works to fund your production for the next series. Consider scaling your business slowly that way so that you don't lose your shirt if it the titles don't sell, and hey, if the trilogy and the 5 book series take off, trad pub might pick you up for your 7 book series and you won't have to invest in production there at all.

You can always add a book here and there to your Apub series to appease your fans, but it's not looking as though that's a good way for you to spend your time right now since you have so little control over that first title.

I'm sure it's a difficult decision to walk away from a planned series like that, but if you stall out now, you risk permanently losing any momentum you've gained for yourself just from finishing a book and publishing it and getting readers' eyes on it.

I don't think that you should give up on your hybrid goal, but I do think that maybe it's just not going to work out for this series.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

RomanceWriter77 said:


> In reference to your concern about the expense of production, I've found that if I plan out a series ahead of time and write the blurbs, titles, and subtitles, approaching a cover artist with a multi-book order that's ready-to-go gets me a very significant discount. Same with editors. I did a sample edit with an editor, contacted other authors they'd worked with so that I knew she was professional, and then we worked out a discount per title since I was booking multiple titles with her.
> 
> It is a significant investment up front, but the savings were still very good and I knew I was going to finish the series and publish it. If you aren't writing to pay the bills, I'd suggest taking the money you've earned from your Apub title and sinking it into buying covers and securing editing in batches.
> 
> ...


Astute and exactly what I'm thinking. I hate to do it but I left an opening at the end of book two that won't get explored in a third book unless some major inspiration strikes. I've recently contracted with a new editor who does give discounts to repeat customers. I wish I had thought of negotiating costs for multiple books earlier though I'm not a prolific author. One, maybe two books a year. I keep getting caught up in editing. I'm working from a complete outline for the first time ever and hope that is the formula for success (faster turnaround). My pantsing ways have bitten me in the butt on more than one occasion. Really great suggestion and good confirmation that I'm not out of my mind. At least not on this...


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## RomanceWriter77 (Mar 10, 2014)

belindaf said:


> Astute and exactly what I'm thinking. I hate to do it but I left an opening at the end of book two that won't get explored in a third book unless some major inspiration strikes. I've recently contracted with a new editor who does give discounts to repeat customers. I wish I had thought of negotiating costs for multiple books earlier though I'm not a prolific author. One, maybe two books a year. I keep getting caught up in editing. I'm working from a complete outline for the first time ever and hope that is the formula for success (faster turnaround). My pantsing ways have bitten me in the butt on more than one occasion. Really great suggestion and good confirmation that I'm not out of my mind. At least not on this...


Pick up Libbie Hawker's book "Take Off Your Pants," Rachel Aaron's "2,000 to 10,000" and Chris Fox's "5,000 Words per Hour." All three were immensely helpful to me in getting more out of my work time.


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## Megan Crewe (Oct 8, 2015)

C. Gockel said:


> I do wonder why traditional *print* publishers don't take a page from places like Tantor's book. Tantor is an audio company that works with indie authors to get their books into audio. They pay small to no advance, and the royalties for the indie are smaller: 10%-25%, but they also assume all risk and help with legitimacy/advertising. They like working with indies because, as they told me, when indies promote their ebooks, the audio book sales go up too.
> 
> I would love to have a traditional print publisher pick up my print books and market them and leave me the ebooks to promote. It seems like we could have a beneficial relationship ... they'd have to invest less in me, I'd also be happy to take smaller royalties from my print books than traditionally published authors as long as they tried to get me into Target and I got to keep my ebook royalties, and control.


I think the reason you don't see this happening is that print is where the publisher is taking on the most risk--the most upfront expense before they know how much money they'll make. People ask why trad publishers are still pricing their ebooks so high, and from what I've seen it's to make up for the expense of producing the book in general, especially as so many adult readers are switching to mainly ebooks. And unlike audio, I don't think print sales tend to go up with ebook sales. I've sold nearly a thousand ebook copies of my re-release so far in January thanks mainly to BookBub, but all that exposure has translated into zero paperback sales. So a publisher has no guarantee that if your ebook is doing well, a print version will do equally well (or move at all).

Thing is, to have any hope of getting a book into Target or even Barnes & Noble (only major hitters tend to make it into the not-specifically-bookstores), a publisher needs to market a book as aggressively as anything else in their catalog. They could do that for a book where they'll also benefit from the ebook sales, or they could do that for a book where they'll only benefit from print sales. The former option is naturally going to look a lot more financially appealing to them.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

J.J. Fitch said:


> For me, I think it's about the prestige. I know that sounds snobbish
> 
> But, I just graduated with my MFA in Writing. While self-publishing sometimes would come into conversation, it was kind of a dirty word among the academia. In fact, during one of the last lectures I went to before I graduated, the speaker got up there and said "if you self-publish, you're wasting your degree."
> 
> So, if I want to teach at a college in the future, I need to traditionally publish. But, I want to be a hybrid author. I want the money and control of self-publishing and the prestige of the traditional publishing (according to academia standards). So, I plan to do both


If you plan on teaching at a college in the future, you'd better not self-publish. It's likely that no college will hire you if you're an indie, unless you also manage to win a prestigious literary award , like a Pulitzer. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's reality. As you said, self-publishing is a dirty word in academia.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Tilly said:


> If you think another publisher will pour effort into advertising your books, let me burst that bubble now. They won't. Unless you have a significant deal (6 figures plus) and the publisher wants to recoup their money, you will find little effort expended by publishers on your behalf. You will give up control & royalties and still be responsible for marketing & advertising.


Exactly.


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## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

I've totally changed my mind about this over the years. There was a time when I wanted nothing more than to be published by one of the big publishing houses. I came very close to signing with a top New York City literary agent. In the end, they didn't offer me a contract because of something they didn't like in my book, but told me to submit future books. I've had numerous books published by small press, the type that many people would consider a traditional publisher. Over time, I heard that quite a few authors who had signed with the big houses, including some authors I knew personally, weren't making enough money to live on and were being dropped by their publishers because of low sales. I also discovered that many self-published authors were making way more money than I was making with small press and had a lot more control over how to market their books. I'm not making a lot of money at this point, but I'm selling a lot more books than I ever sold with small press. I'd definitely consider being a hybrid author, although I like the flexibility I have in regard to pricing and marketing books as a self-published author. At one point, I was referred by an author for whom I edited books to a top Hollywood agent. That agent read the work I sent him and went on to ask for more and more of my work until he'd read everything I'd ever written. He liked my books, but was looking for something that met the specific types of movies he knew he could sell at the time. He invited me to submit future work, which I'll most likely do at some point.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

Speaking with a couple of self-publishers who did very well and then got approached by agents persuaded me not to bother submitting to agents any more. If you do well enough they will come to you. 

I'm open to considering a traditional publisher so long as the terms are reasonable, but I'm not going to waste time chasing them. I've got books to write and publish.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Eh. Hybrid is pretty cool. I leave my options open. I have an agent, though I didn't submit to one the normal way (I researched some, picked a few I liked, wrote them quick emails outlining my plans and my sales and they called me). I figure if a big NY pub can offer enough, I'll listen to a deal. If not, I've got my indie career. I can have both.

I don't care about validation from a publisher though. Only validation that matters to me is readers liking my work and paying me enough for it that I don't have to get a "real" job


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

It's funny how the stigma still sticks to self-publishing. I had a friend that asked me if I knew anyone in the publishing industry I (don't) she then asked a few of her other friends and apparently had a few people that did. I asked her if you have such a great idea, and she has some credit having written for a few magazines why don't you self-publish. Her answer was "Becuase I think my book (idea) will be good enough to garner some real interest and a contract." There wasn't really anything I could say to that I just shook my head and thought man self-publishing is awesome but you won't give it a chance because you have the mindset that self-publishing means you failed in some way.

Anyways I always knew that I would self-publish, it just spoke to me. The control the hours, the deadlines, all set by me. Sometimes it seems like a lot of working doing the advertising, covers, and editors, but it's also very rewarding.

That being said if Amazon came to me and offered me something for my next series I'd totally entertain offers. I'm not sure I would from anyone else.


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## J.J. Fitch (Jun 17, 2015)

Annie B said:


> I don't care about validation from a publisher though. Only validation that matters to me is readers liking my work and paying me enough for it that I don't have to get a "real" job


That's the true validation that I want, too 

And teaching is just a secondary idea. #1 dream is to find those readers that like my work so that I don't have to get a real "job" either!


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

I'm published by a small UK company and I'm very happy. I like the fact they felt strongly enough about the book to invest money in it. I like their professional and mentoring support. I like being part of their 'family' of writers. In fact, I like the whole traditionally published thing, including, as someone else mentioned, the prestige, and my next step is to find an agent and hopefully sign with a major publisher.

Self-publishing is of interest to me, but the investment in time and money to get a novel to a sufficiently high standard is beyond me at the moment and having someone else take care of the detail is a big deal for me. I have a good non-writing job that provides most of my income and I have precious little time for writing as things stand. Maybe I'll reconsider when I retire, but for now things are ticking along better than I ever thought possible.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Marian said:


> If you plan on teaching at a college in the future, you'd better not self-publish. It's likely that no college will hire you if you're an indie, unless you also manage to win a prestigious literary award , like a Pulitzer. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's reality. As you said, self-publishing is a dirty word in academia.


Strange. A professor at a University here in Brazil invited me along to her English class for a question and answer session about my books and self-publishing. (Maybe Stephen King was fully booked, lol) They filmed it, and later I was invited back to attend a lecture, using the film and they'd opened it up to discussion among a wider audience of English literature students for me to answer questions. The way the professor looked at it, was that self-publishing was not only part of our history in getting many of the classics published through patrons, but also more that ever, a route get work out there now and in future. Maybe there's a different attitude in the US. She also hit it from the angle of the author base expanding for such as freelance translations and editing as a possible career path in a tight jobs market. To be honest, I thought that nonsense had stopped, because it hasn't reared its ugly head for a while, with self-publishing coming of age as a significant part of the publishing industry. Both can work hand in glove as many have said on here.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

Marian said:


> Exactly.


Funny, after this thread I got the first email I've gotten in months announcing my book is going on a Kindle deal (on the e-reader ad screens for a reduced price) in a week or so. *SMH* "They're watching."


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Writers Cafe isn't all indie (though I've gotten snarky messages from indies insisting it is and asking why I'm here--I shut them down pretty quick). 

I am with a smaller press and I love it. I get to write full time and I don't pay for editing or covers, I just write. I hate promoting, truly, from the bottom of my heart, I hate it. 

I have one indie book, The Fall of Man. I'm going to start taking it around contest circles and am planning to submit the sequel to Kindle select. Dabbling in the indie stuff has been fun and has also been a reminder as to why I prefer going with a publisher.

That's just me. It took me a long time to get my foot in the door, but it's been well worth it. It wasn't about feeling legitimate or whatever, it was simply a matter of what fit, what sort of writer did I want to be? The answer was and still is, I just want to be a writer that writes. Period. I don't want to mess with design or promo. Granted, I send the occasional email blast, interact with folks on facebook and twitter, and have done a few newspaper interviews, but that's the beginning and end of my efforts.

So yeah, just my two cents.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

About a month or two ago, I received my last ever "I'm sorry, but..." letter from a trade press.

I submitted to them about three years ago. This illustrates why I won't be doing it again.

It was a very nice letter, with lots of detail about the book and some issues that I'd paid an editor to fix two years ago, so it felt like a little time capsule.

I won't be submitting anymore. I've been published by a small press, and it wasn't a totally horrible experience, but I think I can do better for my books.

If a publisher comes calling, I'll listen to what they have to say, but I kinda hope they don't, because the writer-part in me that once was a member of SFWA might feel flattered and horrible about having to make this kind of choice.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Decon said:


> Strange. A professor at a University here in Brazil invited me along to her English class for a question and answer session about my books and self-publishing. (Maybe Stephen King was fully booked, lol) They filmed it, and later I was invited back to attend a lecture, using the film and they'd opened it up to discussion among a wider audience of English literature students for me to answer questions. The way the professor looked at it, was that self-publishing was not only part of our history in getting many of the classics published through patrons, but also more that ever, a route get work out there now and in future. Maybe there's a different attitude in the US. She also hit it from the angle of the author base expanding for such as freelance translations and editing as a possible career path in a tight jobs market. To be honest, I thought that nonsense had stopped, because it hasn't reared its ugly head for a while, with self-publishing coming of age as a significant part of the publishing industry. Both can work hand in glove as many have said on here.


I don't know about attitudes in Brazil regarding self-publishing. I gather that you were in an English class and not in a creative writing class. In academia in the US, specifically in MFA programs (which are the primary employers of people who have MFA degrees), self-published writers would have a difficult time getting employment. It's possible but highly unlikely.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2016)

Indie money is great. And if you do well as an indie and decide to move into traditional publishing, you will command higher advances and better terms. The best thing to be is hybrid. With both indie and traditional revenue streams, you are not as vulnerable to shifting trends and industry upheavals. Conventional wisdom tells you not to have all your eggs in one basket. You should be looking for both immediate earnings and long term stability. Diversity helps.


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## IronHorse (Nov 4, 2015)

J.J. Fitch said:


> For me, I think it's about the prestige. I know that sounds snobbish
> 
> But, I just graduated with my MFA in Writing. While self-publishing sometimes would come into conversation, it was kind of a dirty word among the academia. In fact, during one of the last lectures I went to before I graduated, the speaker got up there and said "if you self-publish, you're wasting your degree."
> 
> So, if I want to teach at a college in the future, I need to traditionally publish. But, I want to be a hybrid author. I want the money and control of self-publishing and the prestige of the traditional publishing (according to academia standards). So, I plan to do both


I think this largely nails it on the head. I grew up at a time when self publishing was considered about the lowest thing you could do but the digital age and the obsolescence of bookstores has all but turned that notion on its head. Obviously, if you want to sell books, the more exposure you get the better, and for the most part I can only imagine a publisher helping there, but how much is up for debate, and I'm sure depends on a number of factors outside of the author's control.

I spent a couple of years querying agents and small press publishers for my novella (a hard publish) and it seemed to take them all six months to two years to get back to me and this isn't good for anyone trying to publish. It made me think that most small presses were run by one or two people with other jobs who were doing their best to keep the idea of independent publishing alive, but were in over their heads, and ultimately driving author's like me crazy! I don't even think any of them offered much of an advance, so I'd guess they'd put you on their website and hopefully do a good final edit for you and all the right formatting, but even there who knows? So, it goes back to prestige, and that they may be able to sell a couple of hundred more copies of your book but once their initial well of readers ran dry it would be easy to imagine the author resorting to all the tactics of self publishing. Also remember, your royalty rate on those couple of hundred books wouldn't be so great.

I'm sure a bigger publisher could pay a nice advance, but you're definitely going to need an agent and some buzz to even make it to that level, and even then I have a feeling much of the advertising and promotion is going to be up to you, as you lose control over your book. We're in untested waters.


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## Kate Lowell (Apr 18, 2015)

I'm newly hybrid. Being accepted by a pub, even though it was a small-midsized one, was a huge validation for me.  I've been way happier with my indie experience, but that won't stop me from subbing to publishers in the future. I want to tap all the markets I can, and there are readers out there who haven't found my books because they don't read books from my current pub, and readers who just haven't stumbled over me for whatever reason. 

I went indie for this last book because I wanted a specific style of cover for the story (the squirrel below) that I didn't think I'd get with the publisher, and I wanted to be able to publish the series in three installments, instead of an omnibus.  And I think I was right. My publisher would have wanted some bare chests in there, and it wasn't the right look for this story. I'm firmly convinced that this cover is what helped this little story do as well as it is.

But it's sure nice to have someone else taking care of the accounting.  I have to get myself organized for that now. Leap before looking? Never...


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Marian said:


> I don't know about attitudes in Brazil regarding self-publishing. I gather that you were in an English class and not in a creative writing class. In academia in the US, specifically in MFA programs (which are the primary employers of people who have MFA degrees), self-published writers would have a difficult time getting employment. It's possible but highly unlikely.


Yes, I know it's possible, so I am not so sure it is unlikely. My first editor is someone who bucks the trend of what you are saying as he started self-publishing quite some time ago. Here's what it says on his profile on Amazon. His fiction books which relate to creative writing are self-published.

"After a career in laser science and spacecraft research, Steve Ward spent the last decade writing, editing and flying. He teaches Creative Writing at Brenau University and edits novels freelance. With one nonfiction book published, Holy Enigma!, Hamilton Books, University Press of America, Inc., he won writing awards from Writer's Digest and NASA Innovations. Amid many articles published in technical journals, both of his fiction books are adventures in aviation. He lives on Lake Lanier at the foothills of the Smoky Mountains in Gainesville, Georgia, USA."

http://www.amazon.com/Steve-Ward/e/B001HOGZW0/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_ebooks_1


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

I have never pursued submitting to a traditional publisher. My key reason was a friend of mine had his book rejected by his publisher. I thought, "If they rejected HIM, then clearly I have a snowball's chance in Hell at being accepted." (3 Hugos, 2 Nebulas, John Cambell award, multiple top-selling titles, and they rejected him!) So, I self-pubbed.

I make an average of 68% per copy of gross sales receipts from the sales of my stories. If I went with a traditional publisher, that number would be down around 3.5% or less. A publisher would have to offer me a substantial enough advance check to offset that loss of income to entice me into their stable-and I really don't see that happening in this reality. My goal in writing is to be 100% a writer. Not a part-timer somewhere else. The only way to do that is to make enough money to do so.

There is still a stigma to self-publishing. I even find it in myself. The only way to erase this cloying shame is to succeed. There are now so many independent authors who are doing just this that it is getting harder and harder to justify NOT going the self-publishing route. Yes, academia is one of the holdouts against self-publishing. They don't see sales numbers as validation of expertise. They want to see accreditation. Currently, an independent author has no third-party confirmation of their performance that can be transparently verified. I do expect this to change in time, as more and more people begin to self-publish and the universities wake up to the fact that this is a valid point to teach their students. (And the vice-versa: that students begin to demand that self-publishing be part of the curriculum.)

Self-publishing is the hard path. It is difficult to do because there are so many sniggling little details to it that you just don't know about until you move past that point without doing them. You have to take care of all the functions a good, publishing professional would have done in your behalf. The trade publisher has access to people and channels you don't to get things done. Fortunately, the peripheral industries to publishing-printing, editing, retailers, etc.-are waking up to the fact that independent writers are a potential goldmine that broadens their market beyond a small handful of big-business publishers in New York.

To date I don't know of any independent author who has been asked to be the headline guest at any given con. But now that organizations such as the SFWA are accepting indies for membership, I expect this will change. (A number of big Sci-Fi/Fantasy fan conventions draw their guests from the membership roles of the SFWA and other organizations.) As The Martion has been referenced above, seeing the success of that independently-written book, I would not be surprised if Andy Weir may finally break through that barrier and be a headline guest at one of the ComicCons. The story behind _The Martian_ is as interesting as the story itself is.

At some point, whether it is a fan convention or a trade convention, they are going to have a panel on self-publishing and its effects on the industry. And the only way they are going to get a truly expert viewpoint is to have authors who are successfully self-publishing.


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## UnicornEmily (Jul 2, 2011)

I decided years ago, when I started self-publishing, that I would stop chasing traditional publishing.  At the same time, I decided that if a traditional publisher or editor asked to see my work, I'd give them a chance and see if I was interested.  No more chasing after rainbows and groveling, absolutely no desperation or willingness to take any crumbs they might throw me, but I'm not closed to the possibility that it might serve my career well someday.

For chapter books and picture books, which I think are hard to sell as indie, I'd definitely be interested.


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## eljimberino (Jan 16, 2016)

WDR said:


> Self-publishing is the hard path. It is difficult to do because there are so many sniggling little details to it that you just don't know about until you move past that point without doing them. You have to take care of all the functions a good, publishing professional would have done in your behalf. The trade publisher has access to people and channels you don't to get things done. Fortunately, the peripheral industries to publishing--printing, editing, retailers, etc.--are waking up to the fact that independent writers are a potential goldmine that broadens their market beyond a small handful of big-business publishers in New York.


I agree with this statement. Learning how to publishing independently, and doing it well, is an experience that once you go all in, you might not want to allow anyone else to do the job for you. Why would you leave it to a disinterested employee of the publisher? I'm only just starting out, so self-publishing feels like a 24/7 job, but I guess starting any small business feels like that.

I had a book published traditionally and it was a great experience to see the care and work they put into it. However, they didn't have huge advertising and promotion budget.

As for the academia context - I know of a few lecturers (and writers) who are some of the most prolific publishers in the country. They still didn't get their contract extended by the university. Any good writer will know that validation comes from good writing, not getting a bunch of printed paper bound.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

I've never considered submitting my work to traditional publishers because they have a long and shameful history of bias against the category I write in.  Even if an editor tried to publish my work, they'd never be able to get a contract past their numbers people.  MM Romance has never sold as well as MF Romance, and most traditional MM Romance publishing is still small press publishing.  

The second reason I haven't done it is because at this stage in my life, I'm way too independent-minded to put up with someone trying to tell me what to do.


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## Tyler Cook (May 11, 2013)

I've been back and forth on the idea.  Ultimately, I believe that the publishing companies are not what they are used to be.  So, now it is even harder to get noticed by them.  I would rather put more effort into promoting my books, my way, than having my work controlled by someone else.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

JLCarver said:


> Actually, I've seen a lot of agents looking for LGBT works, including romance. Some even from the Donald Maass agency, Trident Media Group, Writers House, and several more. Donald Maass Agency, for instance, works primarily with big publishers, and they represent a lot of solid authors like Jim Butcher, James Scott Bell, Brent Weeks, and many more. My point, of course, is that if an agency like Donald Maass Agency is looking for LGBT books, it means publishers--including the big five--are probably putting out feelers for that kind of story. If you write erotica, that's different, and you're right: it's still largely in the domain of small presses. But the markets are opening for less-steamy LGBT stories and M/M romance.


I forgot to mention a more important reason I haven't gone with trad publishing. I'm rather have the majority of the money, thank you.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Avis Black said:


> I forgot to mention a more important reason I haven't gone with trad publishing. I'm rather have the majority of the money, thank you.


I've done both (and still do both; hybrid for life), with most of my work being through a publisher. I make much more money with my publisher; I may not get the majority, but the amount of money is such that I outpace anything I've done in the self publishing realm, not to mention the money I save on covers and editing. Doesn't shake out the same for everyone. You may get the majority, but getting the majority of the profits doesn't mean anything if the money isn't the there.

Different strokes for different folks. Having the option to jump back and forth is preferable for me. My next book will be indie (unless I get picked up by Kindle Select) simply because I can't find a publisher that wants the story...but I love the story...and it has fans. I'm really grateful for the self publishing world for allowing me the option of bringing it to life. Wouldn't have been possible a decade ago.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

JV said:


> I've done both (and still do both; hybrid for life), with most of my work being through a publisher. I make much more money with my publisher; I may not get the majority, but the amount of money is such that I outpace anything I've done in the self publishing realm, not to mention the money I save on covers and editing. Doesn't shake out the same for everyone. You may get the majority, but getting the majority of the profits doesn't mean anything if the money isn't the there.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks. Having the option to jump back and forth is preferable for me. My next book will be indie (unless I get picked up by Kindle Select) simply because I can't find a publisher that wants the story...but I love the story...and it has fans. I'm really grateful for the self publishing world for allowing me the option of bringing it to life. Wouldn't have been possible a decade ago.


I think there are different levels of money people want to attain, though, and it's fine if you don't want that. I want as much money as I can get, though, and there's no way a starting deal from a trade publisher would be enough money for me. I make up editing and cover costs in the first few hours of release and then everything goes in my pocket after that. If you don't want to focus on the money, that's great for you. A lot of people do, though.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

I've never tried submitting a manuscript to a publisher, only stories to magazines. I had a few accepted (not with the very top mags) and that was validation enough for me.

The more I read about trad publishing the more it seems like a scam. Authors get breaks through knowing or being related to someone in the industry, and the advantages are heavily weighted towards publishers, not writers. So many writers who get a contract and an advance find their book is poorly, if at all, promoted, and then they're dropped. The contracts are highly restrictive and the advances are small. Even very famous writers such as Phillip Pullman are saying this now. So, really, apart from the prestige, what's the point? 

I read a full-time writer's comment that the average time from completing a manuscript to seeing it in a bookshop was five years - assuming it's accepted. I'm fifty. I don't have time to wait around for an agent and publisher to get around to reading my book.

And though there are some readers who won't buy indie books, the majority neither know nor care about the difference. All I'd like is for people to read and enjoy my books and to earn a decent living from it. To achieve that there's no point in going the trad pub route.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think there are different levels of money people want to attain, though, and it's fine if you don't want that. I want as much money as I can get, though, and there's no way a starting deal from a trade publisher would be enough money for me. I make up editing and cover costs in the first few hours of release and then everything goes in my pocket after that. If you don't want to focus on the money, that's great for you. A lot of people do, though.


I don't think I ever implied there was anything wrong with that. Nor did I say that money was or wasn't important to me--it's not as important as maintaining artistic vision and integrity, but it's a primary concern, just not the primary concern. But you're assuming a lot in that paragraph. I simply said that the strategy of being a hybrid is what works well for me and in my opinion, in my case, leads to MUCH more money than strictly going indie...and it allows me to be the artist I want to be and carry out the vision I have for my work. There isn't just one way to maximize profits.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

I have two reasons for never submitting to a traditional publisher. The first is I don't take rejection, no matter how many times I hear that there is only room for so many etc. I submitted to a publisher some 35 years ago, before anyone had thought of the internet, got a lovely letter saying 'nice idea but not for us' and that was it. When I discovered kdp I retyped it onto the computer and published it. That book has loads of good reviews which encouraged me to keep writing. I would never have done that without self publishing.

My second reason is that I have always subscribed to the saying: if you want a job doing properly, do it yourself. I am a bit of a control freak, I suppose. I always like to do things for myself and that includes publishing. To me a traditional publisher means less output, less control and less money.

One day, I will make as much as Amanda; I have promised myself that and I am knocking on a bit so I need to get cracking.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Abderian said:


> I've never tried submitting a manuscript to a publisher, only stories to magazines. I had a few accepted (not with the very top mags) and that was validation enough for me.
> 
> The more I read about trad publishing the more it seems like a scam. Authors get breaks through knowing or being related to someone in the industry, and the advantages are heavily weighted towards publishers, not writers. So many writers who get a contract and an advance find their book is poorly, if at all, promoted, and then they're dropped. The contracts are highly restrictive and the advances are small. Even very famous writers such as Phillip Pullman are saying this now. So, really, apart from the prestige, what's the point?
> 
> ...


You could be reading my mind with this post; it is exactly how I feel, except you are a spring chicken compared to me!


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

JV said:


> I don't think I ever implied there was anything wrong with that. Nor did I say that money was or wasn't important to me--it's not as important as maintaining artistic vision and integrity, but it's a primary concern, just not the primary concern. But you're assuming a lot in that paragraph. I simply said that the strategy of being a hybrid is what works well for me and in my opinion, in my case, leads to MUCH more money than strictly going indie...and it allows me to be the artist I want to be and carry out the vision I have for my work. There isn't just one way to maximize profits.


I appreciate your principles, but I can't afford artistic vision and integrity. I'm with Amanda; the money is far more important than anything else.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Doglover said:


> I have two reasons for never submitting to a traditional publisher. The first is I don't take rejection, no matter how many times I hear that there is only room for so many etc. I submitted to a publisher some 35 years ago, before anyone had thought of the internet, got a lovely letter saying 'nice idea but not for us' and that was it. When I discovered kdp I retyped it onto the computer and published it. That book has loads of good reviews which encouraged me to keep writing. I would never have done that without self publishing.
> 
> My second reason is that I have always subscribed to the saying: if you want a job doing properly, do it yourself. I am a bit of a control freak, I suppose. I always like to do things for myself and that includes publishing. To me a traditional publisher means less output, less control and less money.
> 
> One day, I will make as much as Amanda; I have promised myself that and I am knocking on a bit so I need to get cracking.


Agreed, rejection sucks. I saved all of my rejection letters. I don't remember what author suggested doing that, but they said to save every rejection letter and when you finally get published (and I think this goes for being trade or self published, we all should define our own success) go back and read all of them over a stiff drink and smile at overcoming such adversity. I must have over a hundred saved. I didn't go back and read all of them, but I read a few over a cup of coffee one morning and, yeah, it felt kind of good.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Doglover said:


> I appreciate your principles, but I can't afford artistic vision and integrity. I'm with Amanda; the money is far more important than anything else.


And I think that's perfectly fine. To each their own.


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

Abderian said:


> I've never tried submitting a manuscript to a publisher, only stories to magazines. I had a few accepted (not with the very top mags) and that was validation enough for me.
> 
> The more I read about trad publishing the more it seems like a scam. Authors get breaks through knowing or being related to someone in the industry, and the advantages are heavily weighted towards publishers, not writers. So many writers who get a contract and an advance find their book is poorly, if at all, promoted, and then they're dropped. The contracts are highly restrictive and the advances are small. Even very famous writers such as Phillip Pullman are saying this now. So, really, apart from the prestige, what's the point?
> 
> ...


Traditional publishers have to make money or they go out of business, so they have to make an assessment on each book submitted to them. Will it make them money or won't it? If that's a scam, you can apply that title to every industry.

And by the way, my publisher signed me up in March and my book was on sale in August (of the same year).


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

SteveHarrison said:


> Traditional publishers have to make money or they go out of business, so they have to make an assessment on each book submitted to them. Will it make them money or won't it? If that's a scam, you can apply that title to every industry.


Exactly. I was about to respond, but this hits the nail on the head.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm a hybrid. It's seven months from the time I finish a book until it's released (with 3 rounds of developmental editing and a round each of copyediting and proofreading, plus an audio version done). It doesn't always take five years.

I've gone the hybrid route because I thought I'd make more money that way, and I thought I'd learn something in terms of writing, presentation, promotion, etc. I was able to take a deep-breath leap into some pretty new writing territory with the support of the publisher behind me, and it's been very rewarding artistically. I'm really happy in that sense that I made the choice--it's helped me grow a lot as a writer. 

(Edited to add: I was quite hesitant initially. I feared they'd want me to write a certain way, or to write a certain kind of story, and I don't write to trend or even seem to have too much control over what kind of book comes out of the sausage grinder. I write kinda wacky stuff that is so off trend sometimes, it's funny. In fact, they haven't pressured me in that way at all. They accepted my first wacky proposal for romantic suspense about a farmer, a geology professor, and campus rape without much of a blink, and were enthusiastic about my even wackier second book about a high school principal and a cleaning lady (yeah, that's some Navy SEAL territory right there, you betcha). They haven't given me any "guidelines" or anything beyond the developmental editor's comments, which have been very much on-point and helpful. In that sense, it's been pretty miraculous, after all the horror stories I've heard.)

I do think it's going to end up making me more money (in the sense of both avenues reinforcing each other) as well. 

I didn't pursue this, though, so in that sense, the answer would be, "No." Or "yes," because for my second contract, I did submit--a proposal for the first book in what turned out to be a second two-book contract. 

I think it's all so "YMMV." It depends on the author and the publisher. I do have input (a great deal of it) into my blurbs, and a whole lot of say about my covers, by the way. Not on pricing, but I don't have to do my own marketing, thank gawd.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Doglover said:


> I appreciate your principles, but I can't afford artistic vision and integrity. I'm with Amanda; the money is far more important than anything else.


To be fair, I think it's far easier to keep artistic vision being self-published. I'm sure there is more wriggle room with a micro press, but you're stuck with someone else's vision superimposed on top of your vision at the bigger houses. You have to fit your writing wants inside their narrow needs. I have no interest in that. I want to write what I want AND get paid. I'm extremely greedy, lol.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I'm a hybrid. It's seven months from the time I finish a book until it's released (with 3 rounds of developmental editing and a round each of copyediting and proofreading, plus an audio version done). It doesn't always take five years.
> 
> I've gone the hybrid route because I thought I'd make more money that way, and I thought I'd learn something in terms of writing, presentation, promotion, etc. I was able to take a deep-breath leap into some pretty new writing territory with the support of the publisher behind me, and it's been very rewarding artistically. I'm really happy in that sense that I made the choice--it's helped me grow a lot as a writer.
> 
> ...


You're with one of the Amazon imprints, though, and every single thing I've heard is that their contracts are much more favorable to the author than most other trade publishing deals.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> I'm a hybrid. It's seven months from the time I finish a book until it's released. It doesn't always take five years.
> 
> I've gone the hybrid route because I thought I'd make more money that way, and I thought I'd learn something in terms of writing, presentation, promotion, etc. I was able to take a deep-breath leap into some pretty new writing territory with the support of the publisher behind me, and it's been very rewarding artistically. I'm really happy in that sense that I made the choice--it's helped me grow a lot as a writer.
> 
> ...


Same for me really. If the first Rabid book hadn't gotten picked up I would have self pubbed it. I was on my last few options when it did. I was open to anything. I self pubbed Fall of Man because my publisher said, "No thanks." I actually found out about Kindle Select a few days ago (yeah, I'm out of the loop). I'll be trying that for the sequel, but if it doesn't fly then I'll self pub that too. Hybrid really does open a lot of different avenues and I like having an option in case one road closes down. But I've got no ego in it, whatever allows me to get the stories out works for me.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> You're with one of the Amazon imprints, though, and every single thing I've heard is that their contracts are much more favorable to the author than most other trade publishing deals.


Yes, that's definitely true, especially in terms of the royalty--I was really impressed with their contract terms when I was reading through them yesterday. I'm crossing my fingers for that 50/50 split.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

JV said:


> Same for me really. If the first Rabid book hadn't gotten picked up I would have self pubbed it. I was on my last few options when it did. I was open to anything. I self pubbed Fall of Man because my publisher said, "No thanks." I actually found out about Kindle Select a few days ago (yeah, I'm out of the loop). I'll be trying that for the sequel, but if it doesn't fly then I'll self pub that too. Hybrid really does open a lot of different avenues and I like having an option in case one road closes down. But I've got no ego in it, whatever allows me to get the stories out works for me.


Kindle Select is not a publishing house. It's the box you tick when you upload a book to say if you're going exclusive with Amazon and essentially putting your book in KU. Are you talking about one of the Amazon imprints?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> You're with one of the Amazon imprints, though, and every single thing I've heard is that their contracts are much more favorable to the author than most other trade publishing deals.


I think that's true. I know quite a few people published with houses that have "story guidelines" and so forth, and that make them rewrite to take out secondary storylines or add "heat" or whatever, and I just think, whaaaaa? No way.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

JV said:


> Yes, that's definitely true, especially in terms of the royalty--I was really impressed with their contract terms when I was reading through them yesterday. I'm crossing my fingers for that 50/50 split.


I don't think most of the imprints take submissions. Are you talking about the Kindle Scout program? I'm really confused.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I think that's true. I know quite a few people published with houses that have "story guidelines" and so forth, and that make them rewrite to take out secondary storylines or add "heat" or whatever, and I just think, whaaaaa? No way.


I love your Montlake series so far, by the way. Very fun.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't think most of the imprints take submissions. Are you talking about the Kindle Scout program? I'm really confused.


I'm extremely out of the self pub loop (I only have one indie now). Is Kindle Scout not for an amazon imprint? Yes, their ebook royalty rate is 50% so that's what I'm talking about.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I love your Montlake series so far, by the way. Very fun.


Aw, thank you! How nice of you to tell me. I'm writing book 4 now. It's going to be really cool, I think, if I can pull it all off. *wipes sweat off brow*


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

JV said:


> I'm extremely out of the self pub loop (I only have one indie now). Is Kindle Scout not for an amazon imprint? Yes, their ebook royalty rate is 50% so that's what I'm talking about.


Kindle Scout is not an imprint. It's kind of like a popularity contest. You submit your book and then you have to market the heck out of it and try to keep it "hot and trending" for as long as possible over a set amount of time. Then Amazon will decide if they want to pick it up, but not really with one of their imprints. You have to do all of the work and advertising during the Scout campaign, though.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> Aw, thank you! How nice of you to tell me. I'm writing book 4 now. It's going to be really cool, I think, if I can pull it all off. *wipes sweat off brow*


Yeah. I just finished a pen name book and sent it off to an editor tonight. Tomorrow I have a boatload of books to reformat now that I finally got Vellum.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Kindle Scout is not an imprint. It's kind of like a popularity contest. You submit your book and then you have to market the heck out of it and try to keep it "hot and trending" for as long as possible over a set amount of time. Then Amazon will decide if they want to pick it up, but not really with one of their imprints. You have to do all of the work and advertising during the Scout campaign, though.


Gotcha. Well, it's worth a shot. I'm planning on publishing the book no matter what, so an advance on it and everything would be nice. I'm not sure if I'm popular enough for such a contest or not...it's a sequel so I've got people that have been asking for it, but I guess we'll see. No harm in trying. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Yeah. I just finished a pen name book and sent it off to an editor tonight. Tomorrow I have a boatload of books to reformat now that I finally got Vellum.


Congrats on finishing! Always a great feeling. (One you've had a bunch more times than me . . . but hey, I'm pretty happy to be writing #18. Sure would never have believed it.)

Also hats off on the formatting.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

Doglover said:


> You could be reading my mind with this post; it is exactly how I feel, except you are a spring chicken compared to me!


Ha, I don't feel like a spring chicken but I appreciate the comment.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

JV said:


> Gotcha. Well, it's worth a shot. I'm planning on publishing the book no matter what, so an advance on it and everything would be nice. I'm not sure if I'm popular enough for such a contest or not...it's a sequel so I've got people that have been asking for it, but I guess we'll see. No harm in trying. Thanks for the clarification.


I don't believe they take sequels, but you can double check that. I think they only want first in series, never before published books. Good luck.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> Congrats on finishing! Always a great feeling. (One you've had a bunch more times than me . . . but hey, I'm pretty happy to be writing #18. Sure would never have believed it.)
> 
> Also hats off on the formatting.


18 books is impressive. I was thinking how happy I am to have 5. I really hope to hit 18 one day--that's awesome.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't believe they take sequels, but you can double check that. I think they only want first in series, never before published books. Good luck.


That was my question as well. Towards the bottom of their FAQ they address series specifically and say they take them. Thanks!


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

SteveHarrison said:


> Traditional publishers have to make money or they go out of business, so they have to make an assessment on each book submitted to them. Will it make them money or won't it? If that's a scam, you can apply that title to every industry.
> 
> And by the way, my publisher signed me up in March and my book was on sale in August (of the same year).


Which is how badly written tripe like 50 Shades of Drivel make a fortune. As to your book being published so quickly, I think we were talking about the big 5 publishers, at least I was. A small, independent publisher is going to have things up and running a lot quicker, obviously, but are they doing anything you couldn't have done for yourself?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

JV said:


> 18 books is impressive. I was thinking how happy I am to have 5. I really hope to hit 18 one day--that's awesome.


Well, if you just keep writing one after another, you'll get to 18! I'm not that fast compared to lots of folks, and I write longer and longer, darn it, but they do add up.

I'd never do that Kindle Scout thing. Not a hope. You have to be a social media person who can rally the troops and all. *Insert introvert cringe.* If you are, that's cool. But still--I dunno. It seems iffy in terms of the amount of support they give the books and how much of the heavy lifting you still have to do.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Doglover said:


> Which is how badly written tripe like 50 Shades of Drivel make a fortune. As to your book being published so quickly, I think we were talking about the big 5 publishers, at least I was. A small, independent publisher is going to have things up and running a lot quicker, obviously, but are they doing anything you couldn't have done for yourself?


Yeah, but I think badly written tripe is prevalent in the indie world as well. I've flipped through indie books just as bad that are selling like hot cakes on Amazon. I don't blame the big 5 for seeing an opportunity to make money and jumping on it, I mean, isn't that what so many here preach, the importance of money? Can't fault the big 5 for doing the same thing; smart business. I mean, weren't you just saying you can't afford to put artistic integrity first? I think the big 5 would say the same thing. I say good for them and good for the author of 50 shades---I'd love to have that popularity and that paycheck, not gonna lie.

And I can't speak for everyone, but a smaller press covers my cover art, my editing, and, at least in my genre, has a decent sized following (they won a couple awards last year in the horror genre as well which helped boost their stock). And if you're a hybrid (like me) it's just another avenue to make money.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

JV said:


> Yeah, but I think badly written tripe is prevalent in the indie world as well. I've flipped through indie books just as bad that are selling like hot cakes on Amazon. I don't blame the big 5 for seeing an opportunity to make money and jumping on it, I mean, isn't that what so many here preach, the importance of money? Can't fault the big 5 for doing the same thing; smart business. I mean, weren't you just saying you can't afford to put artistic integrity first? I think the big 5 would say the same thing. I say good for them and good for the author of 50 shades---I'd love to have that popularity and that paycheck, not gonna lie.
> 
> And I can't speak for everyone, but a smaller press covers my cover art, my editing, and, at least in my genre, has a decent sized following (they won a couple awards last year in the horror genre as well which helped boost their stock). And if you're a hybrid (like me) it's just another avenue to make money.


Oh, I agree entirely. But, I may be wrong, but I don't think it got taken up by a big publisher until it was already selling thousands if not more. They just came along and jumped on the bandwagon. I'm not saying they shouldn't make money, but they should also use some of that money to support talented writers whose genre might not be the popular one of the day.

Although I prefer money to anything else, I do take pride in my books. If I had written 50 shades it would have been under a pseudonym and I would not have shown my face anywhere (except perhaps the bank!)


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Doglover said:


> Oh, I agree entirely. But, I may be wrong, but I don't think it got taken up by a big publisher until it was already selling thousands if not more. They just came along and jumped on the bandwagon. I'm not saying they shouldn't make money, but they should also use some of that money to support talented writers whose genre might not be the popular one of the day.
> 
> Although I prefer money to anything else, I do take pride in my books. If I had written 50 shades it would have been under a pseudonym and I would not have shown my face anywhere (except perhaps the bank!)


You do know that the author wrote that book under a pseudonym, and didn't show her face, right?

Publishers do have a duty to their shareholders to make money--they're corporations. They make their investments based on a projected rate of return. The fact that they publish as much literary fiction as they do seems like a fair amount of "public service" or whatever you'd call it. Not sure what else you'd want them to do?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Money is why I stay indie. I like it.
> The truth is, most book deals are terrible for traditionally published authors. When you take out the big dogs like King and Roberts, the vast majority of traditionally published authors don't make enough to live on and have day jobs. I don't want a day job.
> The advance on first books for traditionally published authors tend to run in the $5,000-$10,000 range, and a lot of them do not earn out. You get paltry returns on royalties for that and even if you're a big hit, you have no control. Look at Andy Weir. He did The Martian, for crying out loud, and publishers turned down his next book idea. He talked about it in a podcast. i actually think traditional publishing is more volatile in an instant because you could be dropped at any time.
> Now, the Amazon imprints seem to get things better. They're not technically traditional publishing, but they're close enough in my book. They don't guarantee money, though, and they've had a number of duds under their belt. There is no one out there that can actually promise money.
> The control factor in indie publishing allows you to adapt to current book trends quickly and for someone who is not a mega name, I honestly think the money is better for more people. I understand some people still want the validation of traditional publishing, and more power to them, but I prefer the money.


THIS is EXACTLY my thinking. I stopped submitting to agents a decade ago and won't ever do it again. I LIKE money. I LIKE writing full time. I LIKE writing what I want when I want. I don't want ebooks at $15.99 and paperbacks that don't sell and hardbacks that spend 5 days on vanishing real world shelf space spine out.

Most trad authors have second jobs to survive. I have my writing and publishing business and that's it.

Advances, royalties? Don't make me laugh. I make more in a month than the average advance offered by big pub these days. I'm not talking mega stars obviously. The best part of being indie? It's in the name. Independence. I will never let myself be dependent on one job/company/vendor EVER again. I had 32 years in engineering as a "wage slave"

I'm never going back.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> You do know that the author wrote that book under a pseudonym, and didn't show her face, right?
> 
> Publishers do have a duty to their shareholders to make money--they're corporations. They make their investments based on a projected rate of return. The fact that they publish as much literary fiction as they do seems like a fair amount of "public service" or whatever you'd call it. Not sure what else you'd want them to do?


Exactly. Honestly, I'm happy for anyone that can make it in the writing game, no matter what avenue they take. If you can get with the big 5, more power to you--they publish most of my favorite authors, so I've got nothing negative to say about them. I think there's room for everyone and the field will continue to evolve and players will adapt and so on and so forth until the end of time. My plan? I'm gonna stay in my lane. As long as I can continue to wake up at 2pm and stare out at the lake and type away on my laptop everyday I'm happy; it's been almost 6 years since I've punched a clock and I'm only 31, as long as I can continue to live like this, I don't care who does it for me; indie or trade, whatever. I'm probably going to wrap up one more trilogy with my publisher and move on. I may go full indie after that. I may find another publisher in a different genre (I want to move into literary fiction). Im just thankful we live in a time of options.

Okay, I'm done rambling. It's 4am. Almost bedtime for me.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> You do know that the author wrote that book under a pseudonym, and didn't show her face, right?
> 
> Publishers do have a duty to their shareholders to make money--they're corporations. They make their investments based on a projected rate of return. The fact that they publish as much literary fiction as they do seems like a fair amount of "public service" or whatever you'd call it. Not sure what else you'd want them to do?


But she did show her face on some YouTube video which got slammed recently, didn't she? Or was that someone playing the part?


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I wouldn't consider trad publishing at the moment. Maybe one day but probably not unless there was a lot of money on offer.

I feel like the main advantage in a trad publishing deal is if you write literary fiction and want to get into an academic career. In Australia, there are also lots of grants for writers but it seems you have to go the traditional path to even be considered. With the amount of effort and time it takes to write a grant application for the chance of a $10K grant, I'm better off writing another novel!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'd definitely consider being hybrid if I got any offers, but they're not hammering down my door yet so I'll continue the way I'm going, thanks. I'm not complaining.


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

Doglover said:


> Which is how badly written tripe like 50 Shades of Drivel make a fortune. As to your book being published so quickly, I think we were talking about the big 5 publishers, at least I was. A small, independent publisher is going to have things up and running a lot quicker, obviously, but are they doing anything you couldn't have done for yourself?


The big five didn't get to be the big five by accident and drivel or not, 50 Shades is a very successful book. Clearly, a very, very large number of readers don't consider the book to be badly written.

It would have been very difficult, expensive and time consuming for me to source and obtain the same standard of professional services provided by my publisher. But as they supplied them to me for nothing and paid me an advance, I am able to write in the small amount of spare time I have and they take care of the detail.


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## Megan Crewe (Oct 8, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> You're with one of the Amazon imprints, though, and every single thing I've heard is that their contracts are much more favorable to the author than most other trade publishing deals.


I've had books with three major non-APub publishers (two big 5 and Disney-Hyperion) and with APub (Skyscape), and frankly, by pretty much every measure, I had a more "favorable" situation with the other three.


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## AndrewSeiple (Jan 3, 2016)

When I first had my manuscript in hand, I tried submitting an early draft around. I knew that with the right editor, it'd be really awesome.

No one would give me the time of day.

I cleaned it up, found some friends to help edit, and tried another couple of submissions.

No response.

I self-published it. And it's been doing well.

If I get something that's an obvious commercial draw or that matches a call I might be tempted to submit, but... to be honest, I lose nothing by self-publishing and building up my portfolio of work. If that goes well enough, then THEY will come to ME, and I'll give a whack at being a hybrid author. Until that day, I see no point in dealing with folks who tell me they can't sell my work, while I'm busy selling my work and making a profit.

You can't sell my work? I can sell my work. Call me back when trade publishing has stepped up its game to be more supportive of entry-level and mid-tier authors.


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## TommyHill (Dec 21, 2015)

I tried, but after nearly all the ones coming back were rejections, I said screw it and went or the self-publish. Someone can always pick it up later if it gets big enough


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## AJ_Powers (Apr 13, 2011)

I applied to one agency before I released my first novel. They didn't bite, and so I released as an indie. So far I've been very happy with my first years sales with one book. Not going to be quitting my day job anytime soon (well, I actually did, but that was just to work for myself  ) but you get the point. However, we all know that the more books you have out there (so long as they don't suck) the more that will snowball into bigger royalties. And I've heard more and more people talking about how they went traditional published and essentially it really did not work out in their favor, they then have to deal with right to first refusals after, and takes a LOOOOONG time to get royalties to trickle back in. Plus then you have to deal with their editors and such and you start to lose control.

It seems like a once in a blue moon you see someone like Andy Weir or Amanda Hocking getting a stellar deal on something they've already written, but as (I think) Amanda mentioned, that didn't give Andy a blank check with other publishing houses. Frankly, with the money he's earned from the Martian books and movies, and the notoriety that came with it, he's much better off doing more indie releases.

So, unless someone approaches me with a REALLY lucrative offer for Ash or anything else I write in the future, I'm planning on staying indie.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Decon said:


> Yes, I know it's possible, so I am not so sure it is unlikely. My first editor is someone who bucks the trend of what you are saying as he started self-publishing quite some time ago. Here's what it says on his profile on Amazon. His fiction books which relate to creative writing are self-published.
> 
> "After a career in laser science and spacecraft research, Steve Ward spent the last decade writing, editing and flying. He teaches Creative Writing at Brenau University and edits novels freelance. With one nonfiction book published, Holy Enigma!, Hamilton Books, University Press of America, Inc., he won writing awards from Writer's Digest and NASA Innovations. Amid many articles published in technical journals, both of his fiction books are adventures in aviation. He lives on Lake Lanier at the foothills of the Smoky Mountains in Gainesville, Georgia, USA."
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Steve-Ward/e/B001HOGZW0/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_ebooks_1


We were discussing MFA programs. Brenau University doesn't have an MFA program. He's probably teaching in the English department. MFA programs are a different ball game.


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## Monaqueto (Jan 23, 2016)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> THIS is EXACTLY my thinking. I stopped submitting to agents a decade ago and won't ever do it again. I LIKE money. I LIKE writing full time. I LIKE writing what I want when I want. I don't want ebooks at $15.99 and paperbacks that don't sell and hardbacks that spend 5 days on vanishing real world shelf space spine out.
> 
> Most trad authors have second jobs to survive. I have my writing and publishing business and that's it.
> 
> ...


You`ve given me some encouragement, Mark, I too am an Engineer, well I still am put it that way. I have been working on my first novel and hope to have that published on KDP this year. Hopefully.

I have wondered about the whole area of publishing and see so many great stories centered around the Indie publishing scene that it has persuaded me that this is probably the best route for me. The only thing is subject matter. Most of the genres represented most successfully in the Indie world seem to centered around Vampires, Sci-Fi, Dystopian, or Fantasy. My novel is Thriller/Crime and do wonder if it is the right fit for digital.

Anyway, thanks for the thread, I`ve had some encouragement reading it.

Monaqueto.


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## Clare W (Aug 13, 2015)

> I take a lot of pride in having never sent out a query letter. From the moment I learned about indie publishing, I knew it was for me. I have an entrepreneurial background, so going indie is a much better fit.
> 
> That said, I will likely try trad publishing at some point in the future, but not for any of the popular reasons people do it. I would do it only as a way to grow my brand. Through a trad publisher I can get access to distribution and eyeballs that are currently unavailable. That access can help grow my entire business, so I see that as a bigger benefit than how much they can sell that individual book.


Agree!

I was commissioned by a trad publisher out of the blue - and I thought it would a) be an interesting experience; and b) it would grow my brand / visibility in the area I was then working in. There were mixed blessings... I enjoyed the discipline of working towards someone else's deadlines and specs and I put in a lot more research than I usually do (shame on me!) But post-pub was most definitely a let-down. No marketing, no sales that I can see, the publisher is in financial difficulty and so is focussing on other areas of its business, etc etc. As so many others have said on this thread, it's frustrating to have no further input (let alone "control") on decisions - and you are completely at the mercy of other economic forces.

Would I do it again? Probably - if asked - and with the benefit of experience. I would most definitely take more interest in the publisher's plans for marketing and promotion and try to influence that as far as possible.

Clare


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

I submitted to one agent 25 years ago, got an encouraging rejection, froze up trying to write something I thought would be accepted next time, and realized I cannot write for the approval of gatekeepers. I have to write to please myself and (hopefully) readers.

Plus I'm with Doglover, I'm way too stubborn and independent to be happy doing things someone else's way. And while I'm not making a lot of money yet, what I do make is my money and I'm in control of it. I'm also in control of my books, my rights, my characters and worlds, my time, my name, and my career. I like it that way too much to ever hand over any of that control to anyone else.


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

I was represented by a big-time agent for ten years, and he shopped a few of my novels around but couldn't sell them. One was too dark (Lord of the Black Land), one was too weird (The Atomic Sea). In the end I went indie with some of the stuff he had rejected or hadn't been able to sell. I had to do it under a pen name because he had told me not to self-publish.

When I told him about it, he dropped me. He said it was because I'd lost faith in him. Maybe I had. Then again, it had been ten years. Should I have continued to wait and hope, possibly for another ten years? Maybe. I suppose I'll never know.

At least now I don't have to spend every waking moment waiting for the phone to ring. I know it won't. I have to achieve success (or not) under my own power. In a way, it's demoralizing. In a way, it's quite liberating.


(reposted from another thread)


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Kyra Halland said:


> And while I'm not making a lot of money yet, what I do make is my money and I'm in control of it. I'm also in control of my books, my rights, my characters and worlds, my time, my name, and my career. I like it that way too much to ever hand over any of that control to anyone else.


Right there with you. I learned a long time ago that no one is ever going to care as much about my writing and my writing career as I will, so I'd rather be responsible for as much of it as I can handle. Indie outlaw to the core.


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## Cxxxxxxx (May 30, 2015)

I've never had the slightest interest in an agent or trad-pub deal. My dad got one in the early 90s and that experience really soured me on the whole thing. Tiny advance, terrible cover and blurb, editing that introduced errors, a prohibitively expensive price and very little marketing support. No way was I looking for that kind of experience. 

Like many of you, I love having so much control over my own work. Of course I can't blame anyone else if I fail, but any success is all mine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

>>>>Just a side note to say that your covers are stunning!

>>>>>And back on topic: I think ten years means you should get a pass to self-publish. Ten years with no sales, and I would lose faith too. Hell, two years and no sales, I would probably be looking for another agent. You did him right by sticking with him for that long.


Thank you very much!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Call me silly, but when people ask me should they self-publish, and if they want to do it for a career, I usually advise them to submit to publishers for a bit and see what kind of reactions they're getting. If you're making 100 submissions in a year (as I did for 2 full years) and you're getting nothing except straight rejects, then that might be a little birdie telling you that you need to work on your craft more... Having said that, submitting that much for two years forces you to write a heck of a lot, which means you're working on your craft, and also that you're not going to be publishing your cringeworthy first manuscripts, and that you get some feedback from people whose job it is to sell books commercially.

I really do not like it how the trad industry is dismissed for what they do. They're businesses, and their business is to sell books. Their buying department knows what level of craft is necessary to sell (even if they can be wrong about what genre people want to buy), because that is their job. I'm not talking about odd cases that individuals call "tripe" because it isn't to their taste, I'm talking about books that real people will buy for money. Because that's what we're doing, too. We sell books. I strongly believe it is a good idea to regularly test yourself against the collective knowledge of these people.

I prefer not to submit anymore, but I will occasionally hire a tradepub editor (at hideous expense) to whack me around the ears about naughty habits that have crept into my writing.

ETA. making over 100 submissions a year got me a good bunch of pro short story sales, two novel acceptances (one of which fell through later), and two agents telling me they wanted to see my next books.


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## AJ_Powers (Apr 13, 2011)

Keep in mind, though, that publishers are often looking for very specific things. Especially over the past decade or so there's been this "your book must follow certain criteria" that seems to be going around all forms of media (books, games, movies, etc). And it's the every now and then something original comes out. So if you are getting a lot of rejections with a unique book, it doesn't mean it couldn't become a hit in the indie world.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

AJ_Powers said:


> Keep in mind, though, that publishers are often looking for very specific things. Especially over the past decade or so there's been this "your book must follow certain criteria" that seems to be going around all forms of media (books, games, movies, etc). And it's the every now and then something original comes out. So if you are getting a lot of rejections with a unique book, it doesn't mean it couldn't become a hit in the indie world.


Yes, but they will be reactions of the type "I like this" or "This is well-written", but...


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2016)

I never did and I doubt I ever would.  The more I learned about how the traditional publishing world worked, the less it appealed to me.  I never saw any value in submitting or even looking at agents as I found the whole process off putting and enough horror stories to seal the deal.  Traditional is just too confining and controlling for me with real rewards.  The only appeal really was advances and it just doesn't outweigh the cons for me.

I'd pretty much given up on any ideas of publishing before indie publishing because big and I learned about it.  It wasn't until then that I really decided to publish and got to work doing so (and of course did so).  

I'm not totally anti-traditional, I think it's a personal choice and one should educate themselves on the pros/cons of each before making said choice.  And of course, hybrid is an option as well.  For me, though, it's indie all the way.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

Tilly said:


> If you think another publisher will pour effort into advertising your books, let me burst that bubble now. They won't. Unless you have a significant deal (6 figures plus) and the publisher wants to recoup their money, you will find little effort expended by publishers on your behalf. You will give up control & royalties and still be responsible for marketing & advertising. I was with a publisher and the "marketing" effort I got was a tweet on release day and that was it.


The advertising part is always easier for Indies because they can control price, etc. But being trad pubbed means you have a chance of getting into bookstores, libraries, and other stores like Target which are very difficult if not impossible for Indies. And there are some advertising venues which still are either closed to Indies or so restrictive that most Indies can't use them. And one should not discount the advantages of the prestige and validation. Some readers do still sneer at Indies. I have had readers actually refuse to take a free paperback of mine when they saw it was not trad pubbed.
I was reluctant to mention another point initially but I have to mention that most big publishers also do a better job improving books through better editing (I am not just talking proofing but actual developmental) and I never grew faster and better as a writer than I did working with a more intense Editor at a trad house. I know; you can find good editors and not all trad editors are great, but we are talking averages. I have to say I think on average, the big trad house will provide editing that is hard for the average Indie to match. (I had bad editing experiences though with smaller houses, so I really mean the big trad.)
I am not trying to run down the indie path or experience. I am just saying that there are still advantages if you go with one of the big trad houses.
I would not discount trad yet.


J.J. Fitch said:


> For me, I think it's about the prestige. I know that sounds snobbish
> 
> But, I just graduated with my MFA in Writing. While self-publishing sometimes would come into conversation, it was kind of a dirty word among the academia. In fact, during one of the last lectures I went to before I graduated, the speaker got up there and said "if you self-publish, you're wasting your degree."
> 
> So, if I want to teach at a college in the future, I need to traditionally publish. But, I want to be a hybrid author. I want the money and control of self-publishing and the prestige of the traditional publishing (according to academia standards). So, I plan to do both


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## AJ_Powers (Apr 13, 2011)

I definitely would like to be traditionally published, but I am too stubborn to let go of the control (and that's probably not a bad thing in this case). If I knew 100% that the publisher was going to make me at least somewhat of a priority in terms of their marketing efforts then I might feel different, but being an afterthought that is only going to get the contractually minimum effort is not something I want. I can do more than that on my own and keep more of the profits.


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## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

A friend recently introduced me to a literary agent he knew. I thought I'd impress him, so told him I had been self-publishing for the past couple years and had sold over 15,000 eBooks. He just shrugged and said that would not mean much to a publishing house. An interesting but very telling response.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

_(edited: wrongly attributed _Dilbert_ to Douglas Adams instead of Scott Adams. Typo!)_

Earlier, I had commented that I chose the self-publishing route after a well-published friend of mine had his story rejected by his publisher. There is a bit more to this story...

One of my first thoughts about self-publishing was the example set by Douglas Scott Adams, author of _Dilbert_. Adams had been putting his cartoons on the internet for years and built up a huge readership. When he finally decided to go and get published, he already had a huge readership behind him. That made the negotiation process easy for him and he got very favorable terms for a "new" author--heck, even for some well-established authors. The publisher knew Adams had a huge following and therefore that meant sales would be good. With that in mind, I figured if I self-publish and build up a solid readership base, then getting picked up by a publisher would be a lot easier.

As I was completing my first book, a new practice in the publishing world surfaced that seemed to validate my opinion: publishers and agents were scouring the Amazon bestsellers lists to find new talent among the self-published. Find an author who was selling hot, make them an offer! _(NOTE: to date, I have never received any offers, save two vanity presses that offered to publish me for 'low' fees...)_

Then I really began to run the numbers. If my book did that well right out of the gate and began earning me a livable income, then I really didn't need the services of a publisher. I've already done all the hard work of promoting and getting my book going. What value do they offer me in exchange for the money they will cost me?

In the end, I came to the conclusion that unless I was being offered a significant advance, it is unlikely that I would sign with a publisher. And by significant, I mean just that. For my entire first series, should it really take off with the readers and gain six-figure copies sold, will be worth a few million dollars. Yes, that is a big "IF" that we all dream about. But we are crafters of dreams by vocation. Why not dream a little for ourselves? What is important is I recognize the potential and understand the business--I know what I'm worth. I can suffer for now as I struggle along hoping for that dreamed of success, because then the payout will be that much sweeter.

*An Argument FOR Publishers*

Let's face it: there are some people who just don't have the mindset or the skills to deal with self-publishing. Even among those of us indies who are successfully making a full-time, livable income from their writing, we admit there are weak spots in our efforts. The number one bugaboo for independent writers? _Marketing!_ For novice writers, it is even worse because they don't even know the basics of what they are doing or what the need/should/must do before they push their writing out for the general public to consume.

There are new small publishing houses that DO get it. Often these are started by former employees of the big publishers who got fed up with the corporate stupidity that comes with big companies, or were cut because their continued employment in a company was a threat to the job security of a less-competent superior. Whatever the reason, these are people with excellent skills and chops for the industry.

I have a number of friends who are trade published. One--different from the one I mention above--is very happy with the small publishing house he has connected with. This, after having been through a number of other publishers, both big and small. This small publisher has given him a very healthy percentage share (over 15%) of the sales, plus advances, etc. They have been giving him excellent editing services and making excellent marketing efforts which have gotten him invited to numerous large fan conventions as an invited guest. This allows him to connect with a wider audience and helps expand his fanbase, which in turn translates into more book sales.

The smaller publishers are more agile in the industry than the proverbial Big-5 (now 4?). They can respond to changes faster and with lower overhead, can make more competitive offers to authors. In fact, some understand the importance of digital sales for an author's income, and are willing to forego the digital rights. This flies in the face of the Big-5 who think a 90%/10% spilt is fair. This allows a small publisher to make a leaner offering to an author, but still allows the author to further advance their income through lucrative self-publishing of the ebook version.

The small publisher brings more agile business responses to the industry and can more quickly make adjustments to the markets. They often can bring better editing services to the table because many of them wanted higher standards held for editing that their previous employers just didn't care about. They are more personable and their relationships with their authors are more intimate than the bigger houses.

The publisher can bring the all-important advance to the table. All of us know just how hard it is to get readers to discover our books and begin buying them. We need to put food on the table! A decent advance goes a long way in making this happen. Having enough money to cover the bills and buy food for the next several months is vital to allow us to focus on working our craft.

A smaller publisher with a tight budget also means they will be putting more effort into selling our stories. The better they sell our books, the better they do and the better we do. They have incentive to sell our books.

A good and motivated publisher can really make a writer's life much easier. They can open up channels that are difficult for an indie to break into. They can accelerate the sales potential of a good book, rather than having it languish for years until some happy chance causes a number of people to finally notice it.

It is easy to pan bad and ineffective publishers. But when you get a good one, it can be advantageous.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

JLCarver said:


> Wasn't Dilbert created by Scott Adams? Douglas Adams wrote _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_


OOPS! Major typo!  (edited my earlier comment to fix that.)


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

JLCarver said:


> It appears to have been first published in 1989. I can tell you for certain that the internet wasn't around back in 1989. We still had that dial-up modem that made the screech-boing sound as you connected, and we used actual phone numbers to dial in. By the time the internet became even close to what it is today, Dilbert was already in 800 newspapers (according to Wikipedia, which says that was the cartoon's publication number in 1996).


The Internet existed long before the World Wide Web came into being.

Adams was putting the images on newsgroups for download for a number of years. By the time he went to try for publication, he was getting upwards of 20,000 downloads a day. It was only when he mentioned his daily downloads that United Media finally agreed to pick up Dilbert in 1989.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

belindaf said:


> Kboards is an indie place, right?
> 
> I've been thinking a lot about my recent publishing experience and my path going forward, wondering if the next book isn't the one I submit to an agent or reputable small press (for various reasons, but primarily as an experiment). I did a post about this: http://belindaf.blogspot.com/2016/01/publishing-decisions-indie-or.html, which is more or less me talking to myself about the pros and cons of remaining indie. It boils down to all the risk (expense), for all the reward (or not), with all the control. It's been a good path, but I'm wondering if I have a breakout novel in me yet that I need help reaching a larger audience. Does anyone else go back and forth on this? What are your reasons for staying indie? Have you ever tried other publishing options?


Personally, I wouldn't ever consider going _fully_ traditionally published. The money is too good in self-publishing, in large part because you're free to respond to a rapidly changing marketplace quickly enough to take advantage of it.

But I do have a few books with a traditional publisher. In my case, the publisher came to me after an editor read one of my self-published books. I've sold three books to them so far, but the rest of my books (17 more) remain self-published, and I plan to sell no more than 2 books to publishers per year. (I write 8 - 10 books per year, depending on the length of the books.)

For me, the benefit in having books with a publisher is the promotion they can do--they can access promos I can't access as an indie author, and every promotion they pay for is a promotion I don't have to pay for. (Except with the copyrights of the books I've sold them.) What I gain from working with a traditional publisher is a boost to my _indie_ sales.

Before you approach any publisher, I'd be sure you have a very clear idea of what their terms are like (talk to other authors who've worked with them), how their contract might negatively impact your ability to self-publish or to sell your books elsewhere (that is, if they refuse to negotiate on those points...), and most importantly, whether they can do anything for you that you can't already do for yourself. In the case of the majority of publishers, I think authors can do everything those publishers _will_ do, but better, faster, and with greater success and fewer headaches.

Understand that most publishers will not promote your books, or will promote them in irrelevant, outdated ways that don't do much for the book's sales or for the sales of your indie stuff. Really put thought into the publishers you approach. Have a reason for wanting to work with them--something beyond "I want to see my books in a bookstore" (my traditionally published books don't have bookstore distribution at all!) or "A publisher is more legitimate." (That's not true.) Approach them because you can see clearly that their methods are likely to benefit your business. If they aren't likely to give you what you need to get ahead, then they're not worth your time. You'll get there faster and easier, and with a higher degree of satisfaction, by writing good books that appeal to your market, and self-publishing them.

I've had two agents in the past and found the experience to be a massive waste of time. There are some really good agents out there who do actually work hard for their authors, but they're more uncommon now than ever before. Personally, I wouldn't bother to find an agent unless you end up with an offer from a really huge publisher and you don't feel comfortable negotiating the contract yourself. Or get an agent who has a good reputation with other authors--one who actually responds to you, who listens to your concerns and your goals, who has a reputation for working hard and getting good deals... not just one who has a lot of followers on Twitter or a cute blog. I still feel strongly that authors don't need agents anymore in order to launch strong careers, though. Agents now seem to serve more of a purpose in helping you get an already-established career to the next level, by helping you sell performance or foreign rights, for example. You don't need one in order to work with a publisher, if you even want to work with a publisher at all.

Anyway, I think you can probably achieve breakout just fine on your own. Your covers might need redesigning and perhaps you may need to evaluate other aspects of your strategy (are you writing a series? How popular is your chosen genre? That kind of thing.) But I can tell you with a very high degree of confidence that nearly every author will make far more money self-publishing than she'll make with a publisher. There are some exceptions to that, but statistically, you and I aren't likely to be an exception.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

David Chill said:


> A friend recently introduced me to a literary agent he knew. I thought I'd impress him, so told him I had been self-publishing for the past couple years and had sold over 15,000 eBooks. He just shrugged and said that would not mean much to a publishing house. An interesting but very telling response.


And yet by selling over 15K ebooks, you've probably made more money than any of his clients have made in the measly royalties they've received from the books he's sold for them. If they've earned out their advances at all.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

ElHawk said:


> David Chill said:
> 
> 
> > A friend recently introduced me to a literary agent he knew. I thought I'd impress him, so told him I had been self-publishing for the past couple years and had sold over 15,000 eBooks. He just shrugged and said that would not mean much to a publishing house. An interesting but very telling response.
> ...


I remember someone mentioning that the metric for considering a book as good seller is selling 10,000 copies. So, on mentioning 15,000 copies sold as an independent, you probably made the agent pee a little. (Note: no time limit was mentioned in regards to the 10K copies sold.)

Here is a table showing what your earnings could be


*Ebook**Trade Net Basis**Trade Retail Basis* *Proceed/Royalty Rate*70%15%15%  *Cover Price*$4.99 $7.99 $7.99  *Wholesale Price* $0.00 $4.00 $4.00  *Printing Cost* $0.00$2.95$2.95  *Net Profit*$4.99$1.04$1.04  *Author Share per copy*$3.49 $0.16 $1.20(Net profit x Proceed/Royalty Rate)
* # Copies Sold* 15,000 15,000 15,000 *TOTAL**$52,395.00**$2,340.00**$17,977.50* 

Notes:

'Net Basis' means your royalty is calculated from the net profit of the book. This is the most likely basis an publisher will use in their offer you. Do the math, negotiate carefully.
'Retail Basis' means your royalty is calculated from the cover price of the book. This is the best payout you can get from a publisher. Don't expect to get it unless you are an A-list author who sells millions of copies per book.
It should be mentioned that Amazon pays authors on a retail basis calculation. The price can be changed if they decide to put your title on sale, which will effect your payout.
Retail price I based on the current price of a paperback novel. ($7.99 most common on the dozen or so I looked at)
Printing costs vary. I based this on a 110K-word novel at 350pp printed as a paperback in a print run of 1,000 copies at an actual book manufacturer. Not POD.
I chose 15% royalty because I was being generous and assumed the agent would give you an out-of-the-ballpark offer. More likely you would be offered 5%-7% as a "First Time" author. Unless you sell millions of copies per book, it is highly unlikely you will receive a better offer than 15% from any publisher.
It should be noted that Amazon charges non-exclusive authors a "delivery charge" for each download. So the share rate actually works out to about 68%. I didn't reflect that in the above table for simplicity's sake. This could be added in as the "Printing Cost" for an ebook.
YMMV


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## Dale Ivan Smith (Oct 13, 2015)

ElHawk said:


> Personally, I wouldn't ever consider going _fully_ traditionally published. The money is too good in self-publishing, in large part because you're free to respond to a rapidly changing marketplace quickly enough to take advantage of it.
> 
> But I do have a few books with a traditional publisher. In my case, the publisher came to me after an editor read one of my self-published books. I've sold three books to them so far, but the rest of my books (17 more) remain self-published, and I plan to sell no more than 2 books to publishers per year. (I write 8 - 10 books per year, depending on the length of the books.)
> 
> ...


THIS. I have only had short fiction traditionally published, and have never even sent a query to an agent or a trad publisher. I don't foresee doing so in the future, either. For me, the chance of becoming a trad published best selling author is akin to winning the lottery; granted, becoming a self-published best selling author, defined as hitting the top 20 on Amazon or the USA Today Best-seller list etc is a long shot, but having a career as a indie published midlist author seems achievable in the long run. If my indie published novel sales reached a level that attracted the interest of a trad publisher, and the right deal came long, I'd still want to largely remain indie, for all the reasons Libbie so well laid out above


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

ElHawk said:


> Personally, I wouldn't ever consider going _fully_ traditionally published. The money is too good in self-publishing, in large part because you're free to respond to a rapidly changing marketplace quickly enough to take advantage of it.


This.

Pretty much sums up my position. I will never submit work to a publisher, outside of a short I would send to a periodical.

If I ever do have a book or two traditionally published, it will be because the publisher made me an offer and agreed to my contract terms. Yes: *MY* contract terms. Not theirs. I have a lawyer and I know how to use him. Fortunately, I do not subscribe to the "Scorched Earth" approach to unbridled capitalism. I believe in sharing the wealth-you make me rich, I'll make you rich, too.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

ElHawk said:


> Personally, I wouldn't ever consider going _fully_ traditionally published. The money is too good in self-publishing, in large part because you're free to respond to a rapidly changing marketplace quickly enough to take advantage of it.


This.

Pretty much sums up my position. I will never submit work to a publisher, outside of a short I would send to a periodical.

If I ever do have a book or two traditionally published, it will be because the publisher made me an offer and agreed to my contract terms. Yes: *MY* contract terms. Not theirs. I have a lawyer and I know how to use him. Fortunately, I do not subscribe to the "Scorched Earth" approach to unbridled capitalism. I believe in sharing the wealth-you make me rich, I'll make you rich, too.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

When people talk about the percentage of retail you get as an indie vs. a trad author, they forget the most important part:

Percentage of WHAT.

If a publisher gives you significantly more marketing, utilizing avenues you can't access as an indie as Libbie says above, you may well make much more money than on indie books. Even though your royalty may be half that of an indie, if you sell three times as many books . . .

Which is why I'm a hybrid.

(But if I were considering this for the first time, I'd go back up there and study Libbie's [EL Hawk's] post. Libbie is wise.)


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

A lot of this discussion seems to assume all traditional publishers are alike, but they are actually as varied as businesses in any large industry. 

The bigger ones can pick and choose who they take on and dictate terms to authors, simply because they can instantly reach more potential readers than an independent author could reach in years. That's why writers looking for traditional publishers start with them and work their way down. The small royalties on each book can very quickly accumulate. But as you work your way down the publisher scale, you find smaller companies who are very well aware of the changing landscape and are adapting their businesses accordingly. 

For instance, my very small UK publisher provided a very generous contract and advance and gave me final say on all editorial suggestions and the final cover design (which they developed from my idea). My novel is available on pretty much all ebook platforms and has paperback distribution in Europe and the US. They are also very supportive in providing marketing material and assistance (they paid for my private book launch here in Australia, for instance), advice and contacts. 

Reading through this thread I have seen some very valid reasons for self-publishing rather than going the traditional route, but those who are not sure should not assume one size fits all. It's just an industry like any other and within it are publishers trying in many different ways to sell books. It's not a question of which method of publishing is better; it's which one is best for you.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted. My words are not yours.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I hear non-compete clauses mentioned all the time as a reason not to trad publish. However, it's worth pointing out that not all trad contracts will impede an author from indie publishing. My latest contract, for example, gives my publisher only the right of first refusal to books in the series I'm writing for them. Which seems perfectly reasonable.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> When people talk about the percentage of retail you get as an indie vs. a trad author, they forget the most important part:
> 
> Percentage of WHAT.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes, yes, yes! Exactly! This concept seems hard to grasp for many. And +1 for being a hybrid.


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

JV said:


> Yes, yes, yes, yes! Exactly! This concept seems hard to grasp for many. And +1 for being a hybrid.


What's to grasp? It's such a basic and obvious concept, it's hard to imagine any writer not taking it into consideration.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

SteveHarrison said:


> What's to grasp? It's such a basic and obvious concept, it's hard to imagine any writer not taking it into consideration.


I'm honestly not sure. I've gotten many knee jerk, negative reactions when it comes to the topic, and those remain a mystery to me that I no longer have the energy to solve.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Also, the publisher can make a lot of money without a book ever earning out. This is why a decent advance is good. You get paid, it is more incentive for a publisher to put marketing dollars into the book, and even if you never earn out, everyone gets money from it.  Advances are nice.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

SteveHarrison said:


> What's to grasp? It's such a basic and obvious concept, it's hard to imagine any writer not taking it into consideration.


Look back through the thread at how many people are talking about the lower royalty rate on trad deals as a reason to stay indie . . . This is the most common reason I've heard people give for why they'd never take a trad deal.


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> Look back through the thread at how many people are talking about the lower royalty rate on trad deals as a reason to stay indie . . . This is the most common reason I've heard people give for why they'd never take a trad deal.


You're right. I need to read more!

I suppose informed choices are not compulsory


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

SteveHarrison said:


> You're right. I need to read more!
> 
> I suppose informed choices are not compulsory


Not taking the trad deal could still be an informed choice, of course. It just depends where you judge your best direction to lie, with that particular publisher and that particular deal and your own path. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer. (As with everything in publishing.)


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

JV said:


> I'm honestly not sure. I've gotten many knee jerk, negative reactions when it comes to the topic, and those remain a mystery to me that I no longer have the energy to solve.


Nothing. If things were as you said: publisher publishes books, publisher does nice promo. Everyone is happy.

But unfortunately, there are far too many horror stories about:

- publisher botches cover
- publisher doesn't promo much
- publisher is extremely tardy communicating or even paying
- publisher obfuscates sales of foreign copies
- publisher forces writers to sign crap contract
- publisher is not home when writer is trying to get the rights back

The list goes on. All of which makes writers who are connected and read all this stuff think: the contract had better be worth it for me to take this risk and lose all or most control over the book for the next foreseeable future.

This is why I prefer to self-publish: because my experiences have taught me that despite good intentions, things go wrong and when you're dealing with a corporation, you're at the very bottom of the shit-heap and getting control of your work back is not easy. Call me cynical, but I'm unwilling to put this level of trust in a corporation, unless I have other income.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Nothing. If things were as you said: publisher publishes books, publisher does nice promo. Everyone is happy.
> 
> But unfortunately, there are far too many horror stories about:
> 
> ...


There are bad eggs in every basket. Nothing is guaranteed. A lot of knee jerk reactions are honed from ignorance, not actual research. I'm not preaching one way over the other. In the end everyone has to do what they think is right for them. But, as I stated, some of the knee jerk reactions, the pitch fork waving, well...it's downright hilarious and I've mostly taken to shaking my head and munching popcorn rather than attempting a response.

Trade doesn't automatically equal bad/evil/poor anymore than indie equals good/profit. It's something that changes person to person and situation to situation, one size does not fit all. I've heard just as many great things as I have horror stories.


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

I agree with the other posters about the amount of the advance when dealing with Trad publishers. A larger advance means more money in your pocket (obviously), but also more marketing dollars (the publishers have incentive to earn their money back).

That said, I wouldn't entertain an ordinary advance ($5,000-$10,000). It wouldn't make sense for me, knowing that the advance is most likely ALL I would get out of that deal. The publisher has no real stake in it and I could earn that advance self-publishing in under a year.

*Although I would consider an Amazon imprint, especially if I have a back catalog and knowing the marketing push the give to one book will be good for all my books.

Amazon imprints aside, I would really only be tempted to take an "ordinary" contract for children and middle grade books.


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> Not taking the trad deal could still be an informed choice, of course. It just depends where you judge your best direction to lie, with that particular publisher and that particular deal and your own path. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer. (As with everything in publishing.)


Agreed. As with everything in writing, too!


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

It wasn't too long ago that people were talking about self-publishing as a way to build readership so they could then step up to a "lucrative" publishing contract.

Now, it has flip-flopped to where people talk about getting a traditional publishing contract to build readership so they can then step up to self-publishing and make some real money.

This industry just keeps on evolving…


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## Rowan Asher (Jul 1, 2016)

I tried to get The Kingdom of the Air published in the traditional way. The first agent I sent it to wanted it on an exclusive basis but since the agent was a top UK one I thought why not. They had it for 9 months, without committing to taking me on. Luckily they did suggest some constructive changes, which I'm grateful for. So it wasn't all bad 

Then I submitted it direct to a children's publisher (the famous Oxford-based one), and they sat on it for nearly a year! Again, I got plenty of positive feedback and advice out of the process but, again, no contract at the end. 

Self-publishing seems much more empowering than the hoop-jumping that goes on with traditional publishing.


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## AndrewSeiple (Jan 3, 2016)

I admit, querying and trying the route for trade publishing didn't go well for me. The months weren't wasted, per se, but the taste was enough to know that it wouldn't work out. Not for my first project line, anyway.

Freelancing for RPGs has been a bit more successful. Didn't expect that, but it's essentially working for small presses. That's been more about working connections, experience, and familiarity with the systems, though. 

After being a little sore at the trade industry in general, I got over it and wouldn't mind querying again... but not for ALL my stuff. The Superhero universe I'm building is better off in my hands, especially with the way I plan to build and develop it. But if I write something that would fare better in a traditional market, I might try a query. I can always work on something else while I'm waiting for people to reject me, and if they take too long then hey, I can always self-publish the manuscript in question!

You're right about the empowerment, Rowan. I can't go back after Dire:Born. I won't. Even if I do get a few low-priority books through the trade publishing hoops, I'll still be self-publishing other things as I please, when I please, and how I please. I will NOT be stopped.

Now if someone wants to come to me with a good contract, then I'll happily talk it over with'em. That's how I got my first freelancing gig, and the guy I'm working with has no complaints. 

Just because I might not go to them, doesn't mean I won't be gracious if they come to me.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I still submit short stories to anthologies. I'm waiting on two at the moment.


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## RecluseRaconteur (Apr 11, 2015)

I don't recommend imitating me at all, but I probably will never attempt traditional publishing. I just hear stories of professors spending twenty years on their books and waiting and waiting and waiting for others to do the work they should be doing themselves.


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## Scatterdown (May 3, 2015)

RecluseRaconteur said:


> I don't recommend imitating me at all, but I probably will never attempt traditional publishing. I just hear stories of professors spending twenty years on their books and waiting and waiting and waiting for others to do the work they should be doing themselves.


Then I also hear my professor friends getting million dollar contracts and I wince every time they mention it on Facebook. SO THERES THAT.


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## uberauthor (May 3, 2011)

Hi All,

I'm not on Kindleboards very often but I thought my experience might be of interest here-- I've published just about every way: indie (two titles) Amazon Pub (two titles) Big pub (4 titles) small press (1 title).  Ranked in order of how much money I've made.

1. Big pub title #3 (advance + royalties)
2. Big pub title #4 (advance- book not pubbed yet)
3. Apub title #1 (advance +royalties)
4. Big pub titles 1 and 2 (advances-neither earned out)
5. Apub title #2 (advance + royalties)
6. Indie #1
7. small press (advance+royalties)
8. Indie #2

I find that there is almost always a lot of misinformation about how much big pub authors are making because the majority of big pub authors who are hanging around indie boards are often those who are not very successful, and/or are writing genre books that tap into the low-low end of big pub. To make it in big pub, you have to have (usually) a big agent, a big idea, and also some luck (timing, chips falling in the right manner...etc.) However, don't kid yourself-- the books that are showing up on best seller lists, that you're reading about in newspapers, etc. are earning big heaps of money-- it's just hard to be one of the those people.

When I published two smaller books-- smaller advances, less prestigious imprints-- with big pub, I made a lot less money. Even so, I made about five times as much $ on my two smaller big pub books as I made on my two indie books.

Both of my indie books got picked up by Apub and here again, my experience was quite different with the two books-- one of them has sold A LOT, making it my second bestselling book. The other has consistently sold 10x fewer copies even though I think it got the same amount of love and attention.  I've been happy with Apub-- very happy-- but I don't find it to be much different from Big Pub (except that they are very prompt!)

In the end, the books that allowed me to quit my day job and become a full-time writer were my big pub book that became a bestseller and the follow-up to that one (not published yet) for which I received a big advance. 

So, what's the take home?  
1. I wasn't a very good indie author. The book that has been a bestseller for Apub didn't sell that much when it was self-pubbed.
2. The big money is still in big pub, but it's hard to get-- depends on a lot of a factors aligning in your favor.
3. Apub can be fabulous or not-- it's big advantage is that it has excellent distribution into the ebook market, but it can't make a book sell if the book itself doesn't catch readers' fancy.

So, that's pretty much it. But I think that if you have a opportunity to publish with Big Pub it's only worth it if you are going to be on the high end of the food chain-- being on the low end (small advance, non prestigious imprint) can be a soul-crushing experience.

And, I really admire the people who are making good livings publishing indie-- that seems really hard and more power to you!


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2016)

uberauthor said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm not on Kindleboards very often but I thought my experience might be of interest here-- I've published just about every way: indie (two titles) Amazon Pub (two titles) Big pub (4 titles) small press (1 title). Ranked in order of how much money I've made.
> 
> ...


I've heard similar stories from other traditional pub friends. One in particular had a very hard time in indie publishing. I think much has to do with a certain amount of perfectionism traditional writers cling to. Indie is a volume business. You make you work as clean and error free as possible by employing the best available editors and proof readers. But going through five or six drafts rather than two or three then sending to the editors often prevents frequent release dates. And if you want to sell indie you have to keep up with demand. It's tough. And it's one of the main reasons for writers giving up; even those who gain a bit of traction.


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## uberauthor (May 3, 2011)

> I've heard similar stories from other traditional pub friends. One in particular had a very hard time in indie publishing. I think much has to do with a certain amount of perfectionism traditional writers cling to. Indie is a volume business. You make you work as clean and error free as possible by employing the best available editors and proof readers. But going through five or six drafts rather than two or three then sending to the editors often prevents frequent release dates. And if you want to sell indie you have to keep up with demand. It's tough. And it's one of the main reasons for writers giving up; even those who gain a bit of traction.


Yeah, that's interesting. I never tried to make a go of indie-- I put up a single book under a pen name and was surprised to find that it was getting readers and just left it there for several years doing nothing else until an editor from Apub found it and made an offer for it, and with their muscle behind it, a book that used to sell a few copies a day suddenly started selling big numbers. But I still haven't given them another book either because my trad pub career still is my biggest paycheck by far and I just don't have time to cough a book for my pen name.

I guess my point was that if you are a successful trad pub author, that's likely still the best way to make money, but it's really hard to be successful and most people aren't. And being a successful indie author seems really hard too-- but hard in a different way. I guess the short way to say that is it's hard to be a successful author no matter how you slice it.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

[/quote]One problem though is that very big "IF". If they give you


JV said:


> There are bad eggs in every basket. Nothing is guaranteed. A lot of knee jerk reactions are honed from ignorance, not actual research. I'm not preaching one way over the other. In the end everyone has to do what they think is right for them. But, as I stated, some of the knee jerk reactions, the pitch fork waving, well...it's downright hilarious and I've mostly taken to shaking my head and munching popcorn rather than attempting a response.
> 
> Trade doesn't automatically equal bad/evil/poor anymore than indie equals good/profit. It's something that changes person to person and situation to situation, one size does not fit all. I've heard just as many great things as I have horror stories.


And some of us have been at this for a very long time, so your 'it's knee jerk ignorance' comments just make us shake our heads.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> One problem though is that very big "IF". If they give you And some of us have been at this for a very long time, so your 'it's knee jerk ignorance' comments just make us shake our heads.


Good for you. And you may have had a bad experience. I too have been at this for a long time and have had the opposite experience. As I said, bad eggs in every basket and folks have to do what's right for them. I'm being even handed and realistic, you sound rather prickly. But hey, your problem. Not mine. Shake your head all you want, just be careful not to hurt your neck. And also, you're really resurrecting this from January? You have a lot of time on your hands or something?


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## Rowan Asher (Jul 1, 2016)

uberauthor said:


> ...
> 
> I guess my point was that if you are a successful trad pub author, that's likely still the best way to make money, but it's really hard to be successful and most people aren't. And being a successful indie author seems really hard too-- but hard in a different way. I guess the short way to say that is it's hard to be a successful author no matter how you slice it.


Royalties aside, the biggest draw for traditional publishing is the engine of expertise ready to power into action. Sales and marketing in particular. The muscle to push a new book into the display windows of brick and mortar bookshops and inboxes of influential book reviewers. Without an existing platform it's hard for indie authors to even get noticed, especially with a first book.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

I never have, but I probably will at some point. Why not? Be a great position to be in if you could have your indie side and a few trad books peppered through. Chance to reach people you might otherwise not.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2016)

uberauthor said:


> Yeah, that's interesting. I never tried to make a go of indie-- I put up a single book under a pen name and was surprised to find that it was getting readers and just left it there for several years doing nothing else until an editor from Apub found it and made an offer for it, and with their muscle behind it, a book that used to sell a few copies a day suddenly started selling big numbers. But I still haven't given them another book either because my trad pub career still is my biggest paycheck by far and I just don't have time to cough a book for my pen name.
> 
> I guess my point was that if you are a successful trad pub author, that's likely still the best way to make money, but it's really hard to be successful and most people aren't. And being a successful indie author seems really hard too-- but hard in a different way. I guess the short way to say that is it's hard to be a successful author no matter how you slice it.


I tell people who are considering indie over traditional that they had better understand what's involved. Indie is not an easier road to success. You succeed or fail in less time - true. But there are draw backs, should a writer choose to commit to indie. These are typically ignored or disbelieved. The allure of insta-fame is usually too much. They think that they'll be the exception and cling to the myths and misinformation.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

This_Way_Down said:


> I tell people who are considering indie over traditional that they had better understand what's involved. Indie is not an easier road to success. You succeed or fail in less time - true. But there are draw backs, should a writer choose to commit to indie. These are typically ignored or disbelieved. The allure of insta-fame is usually too much. They think that they'll be the exception and cling to the myths and misinformation.


I consider Trad a bid for fame, and indie a bid for making a living. Rarely do Indies also become famous. The few who do are numbered in single digits.


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## Moticom (Jun 29, 2016)

I haven't tried agents/publishers yet, but I plan to. At the moment I'm trying to build up my own fan base via Amazon Kindle, and see what my response is there before persuing the next step. This thread is very useful in the meantime though.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I consider Trad a bid for fame, and indie a bid for making a living. Rarely do Indies also become famous. The few who do are numbered in single digits.


The fact that indies don't become famous doesn't necessarily mean that anyone going the traditional route is making a bid for fame. Very few authors of any stripe become famous.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2016)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I consider Trad a bid for fame, and indie a bid for making a living. Rarely do Indies also become famous. The few who do are numbered in single digits.


Indies do become famous. Well...in a way. The readers of indie are numerous and knowledgeable. They know who's who, and what's what, about all of the upper and mid tier indie writers in the genre they enjoy. It shocked me, actually, when I discovered to what extent they follow the indie scene.


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## CaitD (Jun 16, 2016)

> 1. Big pub title #3 (advance + royalties)
> 2. Big pub title #4 (advance- book not pubbed yet)
> 3. Apub title #1 (advance +royalties)
> 4. Big pub titles 1 and 2 (advances-neither earned out)
> ...


Great information--thank you for sharing this.

One thing about advances--getting a huge advance can be a double edged sword. It's nice to have all that money, but if you don't sell through it can affect the rest of your trad career, not just with your publisher but also with the other trad publishers. Poor/mediocre sales will follow you. Like uberauthor said, it's the best way to make money (especially a huge lump sum) but it's really, really hard.

As a trad author who's shifting to hybrid soon, I don't see publishing as trad v. indie. Both have upsides and downsides. Some authors are more suited to trad, others to indie, many to both. What's wonderful are the choices available to authors today. Yes, there is far more competition than ever before, but the nuts and bolts of maintaining a successful writing career haven't changed: write your best stories, keep improving your craft, learn the business side of publishing, write more of your best stories.


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## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

I am planning to submit my next book to trad publishers. At the very least, the added exposure can help my indie books...


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I just had another short story accepted for an anthology, while _Flash Fear_ is doing storming business around the world. Do I see any particular sell through benefit from anthology appearances? Not so far, but it keeps my author ranking up a bit during the summer doldrums until I can get another self-published book out...


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