# How does one publish a novel once a month?



## Eric S. Kim (Oct 22, 2014)

I know that there are several writers who are capable of doing this sort of thing, where they publish a novel each month (for an entire year or more). Personally, I've been planning on doing this for 2016, though I haven't done it before. I remain confident that I could do this, though there is still a little doubt roaming in my thoughts.

Can anyone who's accomplished this before give me some good advice on how to do the same thing?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Here is Elle Casey's famous thread on productivity:

How I write so many books: A system, some theories, and a few random thoughts.http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,150274.0.html


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## Eric S. Kim (Oct 22, 2014)

I've immediately bookmarked both threads.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

In the words of Jeremy Clarkson, not that I usually quote him, "SPEEED!"

Haha.  Actually you need lots of practice and to keep moving forward, I think.  DWS has some advice.  There's lots of good stuff out there.  But all methods require hard work.  You probably won't be able to take many days off, you'll need to work hard on not burning yourself out, and you'll probably want to outsource editing and cover work as much as you can.

Good luck.


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## KelleeLGreene (Dec 17, 2015)

I'd like to try this as well, but I think with rewriting and editing, etc. two months might be more reasonable.  Although I am hearing more that there is a 30 day cliff... so I might be in trouble.


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## 84687 (May 31, 2015)

I work full time at the moment, and it takes me about four to five weeks to finish a category-length romance (around 60k), but I know I'll write faster when I give up work (she says confidently.) I know there's lots written about writing fast, and that it's not for everybody, but that everyone _can _do it. Adopting the NaNo approach and not editing all the time was the biggest thing that helped me - just reading back the last few lines and then setting off again the next day. Planning out the chapters in between writing times so you never sit down to a blank page. And not worrying about being perfect. Some writers like to polish and polish, and that's great, but I'm not one of them. I prefer a fresh feel to writing that has been overwritten, and I'd rather write the book, edit it, proofread it, send it out to my editor/proofreader, and publish it. If I can do it, anyone can do it, LOL!


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I wrote a novel a month for the first three months of the year and again at the end of the year, but had a huge gap in the middle.  What I've learnt works for me is:

* consistency - after a break from writing, it takes me 3-4 days to get back up to speed so I've got to allow for that in my schedule. I can easily write 5,000 words a day or more if I'm on a roll.
* overlap projects - don't sit around doing nothing while one book is being edited. Send it to the editor then start on the next work. You can have a big chunk of writing down on the second book done in the meantime.
* boredom. I travel a lot and I can work writing around other life stuff but when I have stresses and things not going to plan, the writing halts. I've got to have the story in the front of my brain so I'm pretty much writing in my head when I'm not doing it on paper/screen. If I'm worried about other stuff, the story doesn't brew.
* planning. I don't outline a lot but do use beat sheets so I know what I'm writing towards at each step.


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## robcee (Dec 21, 2015)

Why would anyone want to do this? I know it takes me awhile to edit something I've written. It usually takes two or three passes to get it right. Are we talking full, 100k word novels here?

I think the quality would suffer too much.

Or you could use the James Patterson approach and hire a class full of students to crank on the typewriters. Quality be damned!


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## Richard Tongue (Jul 19, 2012)

Well, I'm on a 56-day schedule at the moment, going to 28-day next year, and it is possible to keep to such a schedule while maintaining quality. At least, I'd like to think so; I've been on this treadmill for almost three years, and it's been my job for the whole of that time. There are a few little secrets here, but to break it down, with a 70k book - my usual length - that's 2,500 words a day. Not that big a bite. I try for 5,000 on a good day, and I've done five figures on occasion.

First Secret: Write in series. For a start, series sell, so it's a good idea anyway, but it means that you've done most of the world and character creation already. Instead of building everything from scratch each time, you are building on what you have done before. This requires notes and/or a good memory, but it speeds you up in the preparation stage.

Second Secret: Build up a buffer. That means that REAL LIFE will be less inclined to get in the way; if you are a couple of months ahead of your release schedule, and you loose a week or two, it isn't a disaster. Over time, you can build it back up again. It also helps avoid 'second book syndrome', because Book 2 is finished before Book 1 is launched.

Third Secret: Build in time for breaks. I've been on three on/one off, and I'm actually going to two on/one off, with a week or two in between books, to go back over the previous books. Covers - well, unless you have special skills, that should be outsourced anyway, and formatting is easy. (Takes me about twenty minutes a book now, I've got the process down.) 

The reason you want to do this is the dreaded cliff. After a month, maybe two, you start sliding down the rankings on Amazon, and it can really hurt. The more frequent your release, the less that hits you. I'd recommend at least releasing books every other month if at all possible - and as I said, I'm going to monthly releases starting early next year. 

Everyone has their own speed, of course, and it's a mistake to simply judge quality by speed. Some of the greatest books in literature were written in a matter of days. If you really want fun, do a search for 'How to Write a book in three days'. One day I might give that a shot. One day...


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## Talbot (Jul 14, 2015)

Richard Tongue said:


> Well, I'm on a 56-day schedule at the moment, going to 28-day next year, and it is possible to keep to such a schedule while maintaining quality. At least, I'd like to think so; I've been on this treadmill for almost three years, and it's been my job for the whole of that time. There are a few little secrets here, but to break it down, with a 70k book - my usual length - that's 2,500 words a day. Not that big a bite. I try for 5,000 on a good day, and I've done five figures on occasion.
> 
> First Secret: Write in series. For a start, series sell, so it's a good idea anyway, but it means that you've done most of the world and character creation already. Instead of building everything from scratch each time, you are building on what you have done before. This requires notes and/or a good memory, but it speeds you up in the preparation stage.
> 
> ...


This is excellent advice, thank you.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

robcee said:


> Why would anyone want to do this? I know it takes me awhile to edit something I've written. It usually takes two or three passes to get it right. Are we talking full, 100k word novels here?
> 
> I think the quality would suffer too much.
> 
> Or you could use the James Patterson approach and hire a class full of students to crank on the typewriters. Quality be damned!


Don't put your limitations on others.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

With difficulty. Plus a giant amount of discipline and available time to write.  It's not something I could or would want to do. Not for any great length of time, at least.


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## LGOULD (Jul 5, 2011)

As someone who takes 3-4 years to write a novel, I find this mind-boggling.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

robcee said:


> Why would anyone want to do this? I know it takes me awhile to edit something I've written. It usually takes two or three passes to get it right. Are we talking full, 100k word novels here?
> 
> I think the quality would suffer too much.
> 
> Or you could use the James Patterson approach and hire a class full of students to crank on the typewriters. Quality be damned!


I can't write quickly, either, but almost everyone who makes big money at this endeavor publishes very frequently. If the quality of their work wasn't good, all those hundreds of thousands of people wouldn't be buying it, eh?


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## TonyU (Dec 14, 2014)

I planned to write 6 books over the winter (the slow time of year for my business) but I'm less than half way through the first. I feel like a total failure. I desperately hope to turn things around as quickly as possible.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

Edward M. Grant said:


> I think you just need to make it your day job.


Oh sure, but that's a little easier said than done! 
Though even if I do get to that point, I doubt I'll put out a novel a month.


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## mrforbes (Feb 16, 2013)

Experience teaches you how to increase your pace. 
It took me four months to write my first novel. 
I'm endeavoring to release monthly for at least the next four months, and at least every 6 weeks after that. I think I can because I've learned so much over the last three years, both about publishing in general, and about myself. I have a system that works for me, and my readers don't seem to mind the more frequent releases. I'm actually trying to get a grip on Dragon so I can increase my pace even more and have more breathing room around that schedule.

3k words per day = 1 novel per month. I can write 3k in 2-3 hours as long as I can keep myself from getting distracted. That's the hard part for me 

I also have a full-time job. It helps to not have children.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Richard Tongue said:


> If you really want fun, do a search for 'How to Write a book in three days'.


In the event anyone missed this, I believe he's referring to Michael Moorcock's workflow strategy.

@Richard - great advice. Thanks for sharing it. (Side note: I love your covers!)


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

Lot's of folks can do this, so can do more than one a month. I'm looking to do two a quarter this year, and if more fall out of the tree awesome! I think 8 is a very real achievable number for a year. Maybe in 2017 I will do more.

What I have found is you just have to keep moving forward.


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## Richard Tongue (Jul 19, 2012)

Anarchist said:


> In the event anyone missed this, I believe he's referring to Michael Moorcock's workflow strategy.
> 
> @Richard - great advice. Thanks for sharing it. (Side note: I love your covers!)


A shout out to Keith Draws, there. He's illustrated every Battlecruiser Alamo book, and he always does a great job. And I really need to update my signature...


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

When it's your full time job it's quite easy to do a novel a month and overlap the editing process so you're always moving forward. I will write 29 books and five shorts in 2016, and that's with taking seven weeks off and moving. I will also have a good 13 or so extended weekends in there. If you focus and set daily goals, it can be done.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

robcee said:


> Why would anyone want to do this? I know it takes me awhile to edit something I've written. It usually takes two or three passes to get it right. Are we talking full, 100k word novels here?
> 
> I think the quality would suffer too much.
> 
> Or you could use the James Patterson approach and hire a class full of students to crank on the typewriters. Quality be damned!


Rent is a powerful motivator. So is really enjoying the stories you're telling. As Amanda said, don't put your limitations on others. Just because you can't do it (yet), doesn't mean that others can't.

The more you do this, the faster and better you will get. How many hours a week do you do your day job? Would your employer be happy if you only did it an hour or two a day, because you told them the quality would suffer if you did more?

Bakers bake. Programmers program. Writers write. You want to master any of those? Do them a lot. Asimov wrote 500 books in his life.


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## ketosis (Apr 19, 2013)

I plan to do two novels a month this upcoming year.  I found a new system that works for me, and took my output from maybe 2k an hour, to 4k an hour without any problems.  I don't outline, just shoot from the hip, though I do know some general plot points I want to happen.  These types of books also end up being my highest rated and best selling ones, under a romance pen name, so it works for me.  I usually work 2.5-3 hours a day, getting done with 10k-12k words in that time.  I space it out in generally one hour chunks throughout the day so I don't get burnt out.  It's not something everybody can do, or even hopes to do, but it works for me.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I will write 29 books and five shorts in 2016, and that's with taking seven weeks off and moving. I will also have a good 13 or so extended weekends in there. If you focus and set daily goals, it can be done.





Chris Fox said:


> Asimov wrote 500 books in his life.


Good gravy. Amanda makes Asimov look like a slacker.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

JLCarver said:


> Speaking seriously, though, what do you tell yourself to keep the butt in the chair and the hands on the keyboard? I know it takes a certain amount of drive and consistency, and most days, I have that. I write about 3-4K a day. But what do you do on the days you don't have it? As I intimated above, I have a tendency to throw up my hands and take a walk away. Or is that the answer?


I don't personally manage to write every day. I think everyone needs some down time and to schedule breaks.

I didn't personally get a lot of concrete tips out of this book (I seem to already have my own system in place, I guess, because I don't always get a lot from books about writing lately), but there was a really good point about taking breaks...or suffering for it. The author experienced pushing herself too far and suffering the health consequences. A lot of authors have learned the hard way (including me) that you do sometimes need breaks. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011NLV1MA Keep it in mind! It's great to write every day, but there will always be a limit...


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## mojomikey (Apr 9, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Don't put your limitations on others.


This. Absolutely.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

HSh said:


> I don't personally manage to write every day. I think everyone needs some down time and to schedule breaks.
> 
> I didn't personally get a lot of concrete tips out of this book (I seem to already have my own system in place, I guess, because I don't always get a lot from books about writing lately), but there was a really good point about taking breaks...or suffering for it. The author experienced pushing herself too far and suffering the health consequences. A lot of authors have learned the hard way (including me) that you do sometimes need breaks. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011NLV1MA Keep it in mind! It's great to write every day, but there will always be a limit...


Thank you for the book suggestion, Hollis! I'll definitely check it out.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Richard Tongue said:


> Well, I'm on a 56-day schedule at the moment, going to 28-day next year, and it is possible to keep to such a schedule while maintaining quality. At least, I'd like to think so; I've been on this treadmill for almost three years, and it's been my job for the whole of that time. There are a few little secrets here, but to break it down, with a 70k book - my usual length - that's 2,500 words a day. Not that big a bite. I try for 5,000 on a good day, and I've done five figures on occasion.
> 
> First Secret: Write in series. For a start, series sell, so it's a good idea anyway, but it means that you've done most of the world and character creation already. Instead of building everything from scratch each time, you are building on what you have done before. This requires notes and/or a good memory, but it speeds you up in the preparation stage.
> 
> ...


All this is great advice. I wrote the first five episodes in my first series in a white-hot heat from Jan-Apr then largely took May-Jul off due to life and writing experiments and other stuff. Got into editing revision over the summer and started publishing in October, and I'm really glad I had the buffer of releases that enabled me to release monthly and keep going. Looking to continue monthly releases into next year and adding another series or two to the mix.

Building in breaks is key, not just on daily writing but through the year as well. And don't beat yourself up if you miss a day or two here and there. Keep at it and keep writing and building a backlist, not just of published stuff but stuff that's in the works.


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## Gibson Morales (May 24, 2015)

For those who write a ton of books a year or one 80,000-ish novel a month, may I ask this? How do you keep your eyes from getting computer burned? Or from getting carpal tunnel syndrome. Not being caustic, just wondering on a practical level how to avoid these two things. What's a good screen brightness/contrast setting for working on the computer all day. I know some people use computer glasses.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Gibson Morales said:


> For those who write a ton of books a year or one 80,000-ish novel a month, may I ask this? How do you keep your eyes from getting computer burned? Or from getting carpal tunnel syndrome. Not being caustic, just wondering on a practical level how to avoid these two things. What's a good screen brightness/contrast setting for working on the computer all day. I know some people use computer glasses.


I write in 15- or 30-minute sprints with a 10-15 minute break in between sprints. During the break I get up and away from the keyboard to protect against eye strain, wrist pain, or back pain.


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## Richard Tongue (Jul 19, 2012)

Jim Johnson said:


> I write in 15- or 30-minute sprints with a 10-15 minute break in between sprints. During the break I get up and away from the keyboard to protect against eye strain, wrist pain, or back pain.


This. Take rest breaks. I usually go for an hour, with an hour in between, in which I will go for a walk, sit on a more comfortable chair, something like that. Take breaks in between books - I go for at least week, and try not to do much typing in that period. Also - make sure you have a good desk and a good chair, both properly positioned. Helps a lot.


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

Gibson Morales said:


> For those who write a ton of books a year or one 80,000-ish novel a month, may I ask this? How do you keep your eyes from getting computer burned? Or from getting carpal tunnel syndrome. Not being caustic, just wondering on a practical level how to avoid these two things. What's a good screen brightness/contrast setting for working on the computer all day. I know some people use computer glasses.


Ease into it. Don't go from not typing to trying to crank out a 10 hours session. Pay attention to your body, rest when you need, build up over time.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

spellscribe said:


> Ease into it. Don't go from not typing to trying to crank out a 10 hours session. Pay attention to your body, rest when you need, build up over time.


Definitely. It took me a couple years of effort to re-program my writing brain to outline and write in short sprints. Not something I'd recommend doing by just jumping in feet-first. Pace yourself and work to the speed and ability your body dictates. No two writers share identical processes.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

I published 12 novels this year (and didn't publish anything this month). It's very much possible, especially when it's your full time job.

In April, I wrote 150k words. That really helped me to figure out what works and what doesn't. I'm not going to spell it all out here, but I did write a blog post if anyone is interested in reading it: http://stacyclaflin.com/2015/05/12/how-i-wrote-150k-words-last-month/


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

LGOULD said:


> As someone who takes 3-4 years to write a novel, I find this mind-boggling.


I find the 3-4 years mind-boggling. lol I don't put out a book a month, but I can swing 4-5 a year. The writing takes time, but when you add in the editing and proofing, combined with stuff like also putting out audio books, maintaining social media, marketing and life, what time is left runs out. And frankly, I don't think it's necessary to put out a book a month. I do, however, think it's a fabulous way to launch a series. If you're planning something new or are just starting out, then by all means, hold back on publishing until those first three books are done, then do one a month (while you're writing the next one). That will potentially give you enough income to write at a more leisurely pace the rest of the year.


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## J.A. Cipriano (May 27, 2014)

I put out 14 55k+ novels this year. It was incredibly hard for me with a two-year old and a fulltime job. 

I made a schedule in 2014 that seemed crazy. I was going to release a book every month of 2015 or so help me. I followed my schedule and when I didn't hit my word counts I stayed up late, got up early, worked weekends. When I finished early, I worked ahead. It let me write two more novels. (three actually, I scrapped one completely because I didn't like it)

I couldn't have done it without the constant need to improve my craft through practice. Every book I wrote felt like such a huge improvement over my old stuff. I also learned how to outline thanks to Libby's awesome book everyone already recommends and improved my speed from 1800 words an hour to an average of 2700 words an hour thanks to Chris Fox's wonderful application.

According to that App, I write between 2400-3100k words an hour. Even when I put in a new project with zero words written it tells me I need like 17 hours to write it. I can find 17 hours in a month to write. I edit using wayne stinnet's method of going over everything from the day before and it makes my first draft pretty easy to edit. Thank god. 

Still, things got easier the more I did it. As to quality? The first book I put out in September 2014, Kill It with Magic, ranges from Okay to bad with sprinkles of awesome. It took me a year to write and 3 more years to edit. Before I even started the book, I'd already written a couple million other words, mostly bad. I remember bragging to my writer's group in college about how I'd done 850k the year before I wrote Kiwm and they told me to stuff it. As they should. LOL

Wardbreaker, my prequel to the KIWM series was written in about ten days during September 2015 and edited over 3 more days. It was published October 15, 2015. It's like a billion times better than Kill it with Magic. Although it has typos even after using an extra proofreaders. le sigh. 

Funny how writing over a half a million words in a year improves your writing.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

It should probably be noted that a lot of people who write more than 5 novels a year (thought not everyone) is writing on the shorter end of the novel spectrum (40-60k). My partner just wrote 95k in six weeks due to needing to meet a deadline, which suggests she could put out about 8 a year if she were on a roll, but she wrote *every* day for that month and a half and the last days was pulling 14 hour sessions to get 10k per day. 

Theoretically she could write a novel a week that way, except that her books go more to the 120-150k word count instead. Still a great pace; but honestly, I'd prefer to have my spouse back instead of waiting 14 hours a day for her to get books written.


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## blubarry (Feb 27, 2015)

I will second what others have said about how it gets easier the more you write. Consider writing a muscle, and exercise it. You'll get faster, and better at finding solutions and won't let a so-called "writer's block" slow you down. Keep writing. I have a full time job, two kids in activities, and still manage to write 4-5k each day. My plan for next year is to continue publishing at least once a month (75-100k books) with the goal of doing this full time in 1-2 years. At that point, I figure I can double my production if I want.


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## eswrite (Sep 12, 2014)

robcee said:


> Why would anyone want to do this? I know it takes me awhile to edit something I've written. It usually takes two or three passes to get it right. Are we talking full, 100k word novels here?
> 
> I think the quality would suffer too much.
> 
> Or you could use the James Patterson approach and hire a class full of students to crank on the typewriters. Quality be damned!


I think that's it... the editing. I easily spend more time in the editing (including the obligatory don't look at it for two weeks before picking up the completed first draft again) than in the initial writing effort. I've written 60-80K stories in less than two weeks, but that only works for some stories. Others take more to come together... like this 40K novella whose last 10K words I keep tossing and rewriting. It's taken me three months. Good thing I've worked other things along the way (during the set down, look away periods).

There's a bigger danger of writing novels in such rapid succession, too. They all start sounding like the same story. This has happened to me at least once. In retrospect, those two stories should have been one (I won't say which!).

At any rate, I don't fault anyone who does it. For me, one every three months is about as hard as I can push before quality and passion burn out. Oh, and there's the reader saturation thing, too.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

J.A. Cipriano said:


> Funny how writing over a half a million words in a year improves your writing.


Whhaaat?? Practicing something regularly makes you better at it? What is this heresy?  Would that more writers got that practice isn't a bad word. All writing is practice.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Good gravy. Amanda makes Asimov look like a slacker.


Asimove's bibliography includes his non-fiction books, volumes upon volumes on math, (bio)chemistry, astronomy, biology, physics, earth sciences, the bible and history.

Edited to add one of his most famous quotes, in response to the question of what would he do if he had only 5 more minutes to live.



> Write faster


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

What's the Chris Fox app? 

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2015)

I can easily see how someone can write a novel a month, especially if they are fast writer or very good at time management and staying focused.

What I've never been able to get is how the heck anyone can afford to publish a novel a month?  I honestly don't even bother trying to produce a ton a year because it just isn't financially feasible - 2 books in a year would be pushing it for me and I make a pretty decent salary.  But $500-1500 for editing, depending on the level and editor, and covers at $200-500 each unless you're using inexpensive premades, that's as much as $2,000 per release, and doesn't even count any promotion or other business expenses?   Nope, can't do it.

For those who are doing one (and sometimes two) a month, seriously are y'all independently wealthy, have extremely high salaries, are going into debt like crazy, or are you just at the point that your existing books are pulling in enough income to pay out all the costs for the rest?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Anma Natsu said:


> But $500-1500 for editing, depending on the level and editor, and covers at $200-500 each unless you're using inexpensive premades, that's as much as $2,000 per release, and doesn't even count any promotion or other business expenses?  Nope, can't do it.


Very good editors and covers can be had for far, far less than those prices. And for those who have the experience and skills, DIY editing and covers are largely free save for the time invested in learning how and the cost of the software.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Anma Natsu said:


> I can easily see how someone can write a novel a month, especially if they are fast writer or very good at time management and staying focused.
> 
> What I've never been able to get is how the heck anyone can afford to publish a novel a month? I honestly don't even bother trying to produce a ton a year because it just isn't financially feasible - 2 books in a year would be pushing it for me and I make a pretty decent salary. But $500-1500 for editing, depending on the level and editor, and covers at $200-500 each unless you're using inexpensive premades, that's as much as $2,000 per release, and doesn't even count any promotion or other business expenses?  Nope, can't do it.
> 
> For those who are doing one (and sometimes two) a month, seriously are y'all independently wealthy, have extremely high salaries, are going into debt like crazy, or are you just at the point that your existing books are pulling in enough income to pay out all the costs for the rest?


I don't pay that much for editing. My covers usually cost 100 dollars or less. Editing can be 100-200 depending on how long my stories are.

Choose cheaper options or do it yourself. Don't go into debt to release stories. Money goes TOWARDS the author.

I will invest when it's worth it, but no way would I spend thousands of dollars to release a story.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

spellscribe said:


> What's the Chris Fox app?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


It's the one in my signature, but I don't recommend it's use. I haven't had the time to do it justice, and it doesn't generate enough revenue that I'm likely to do that until I go full time in February.

The app tracks your word counts for sprints and projects, and calculates your words per hour and words per day.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

robcee said:


> Why would anyone want to do this? I know it takes me awhile to edit something I've written. It usually takes two or three passes to get it right. Are we talking full, 100k word novels here?
> 
> I think the quality would suffer too much.
> 
> Or you could use the James Patterson approach and hire a class full of students to crank on the typewriters. Quality be damned!


Why? 
Because we can. Because we write for a living. Because we enjoy what we do.
Because there are definite significant financial benefits to never being off the New Release lists for more than a week.

Editing: Those who write constantly, releasing regularly, tend to write cleanly and need very little in the way of hard editing. It always takes 2-3-4-5-6-? passes to get it right, but that doesn't stop us writing on something else at the same time. Part of the day is editing, and part is writing. So we edit and write as we go. By the time you finish a book, 80% of it has already been edited 5 or 6 times.

I write in the 85k range.

Quality doesn't suffer at all. As I said, the more you write, the more you edit as you go, the cleaner you write, and the less editing is actually needed when complete.

Your 'quality be damned' comment is bordering on insulting. Just because you cant manage to do what others of us can, doesn't make us have no regard for quality. It also smacks of jealousy. When you're in that league, then you can comment on others who are and how they do things. Until then, commenting is just going to insult people. I dont know how Patterson writes, and I dont care. I've never seen anything to suggest he has a quality problem. You might not like his content, but that's your opinion, and quality of writing is a subjective thing no-one agrees on, which is why we all get one star reviews from people who dont like the way we write, or what we wrote about. No-one is exempt from that.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Anma Natsu said:


> I can easily see how someone can write a novel a month, especially if they are fast writer or very good at time management and staying focused.
> 
> What I've never been able to get is how the heck anyone can afford to publish a novel a month? I honestly don't even bother trying to produce a ton a year because it just isn't financially feasible - 2 books in a year would be pushing it for me and I make a pretty decent salary. But $500-1500 for editing, depending on the level and editor, and covers at $200-500 each unless you're using inexpensive premades, that's as much as $2,000 per release, and doesn't even count any promotion or other business expenses?  Nope, can't do it.
> 
> For those who are doing one (and sometimes two) a month, seriously are y'all independently wealthy, have extremely high salaries, are going into debt like crazy, or are you just at the point that your existing books are pulling in enough income to pay out all the costs for the rest?


I have three editors and even if they all worked on the same book (which they don't) it would only cost me about $600. I do my own covers. I just did 12 covers for a future series last night and it cost me $140.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> It should probably be noted that a lot of people who write more than 5 novels a year (thought not everyone) is writing on the shorter end of the novel spectrum (40-60k). My partner just wrote 95k in six weeks due to needing to meet a deadline, which suggests she could put out about 8 a year if she were on a roll, but she wrote *every* day for that month and a half and the last days was pulling 14 hour sessions to get 10k per day.
> 
> Theoretically she could write a novel a week that way, except that her books go more to the 120-150k word count instead. Still a great pace; but honestly, I'd prefer to have my spouse back instead of waiting 14 hours a day for her to get books written.


I write 12,000 words a day in about six hours. Writing is like a muscle. When you work out frequently, it becomes easier.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Anma Natsu said:


> What I've never been able to get is how the heck anyone can afford to publish a novel a month? I honestly don't even bother trying to produce a ton a year because it just isn't financially feasible - 2 books in a year would be pushing it for me and I make a pretty decent salary. But $500-1500 for editing, depending on the level and editor, and covers at $200-500 each unless you're using inexpensive premades, that's as much as $2,000 per release, and doesn't even count any promotion or other business expenses?  Nope, can't do it.
> 
> For those who are doing one (and sometimes two) a month, seriously are y'all independently wealthy, have extremely high salaries, are going into debt like crazy, or are you just at the point that your existing books are pulling in enough income to pay out all the costs for the rest?


I do my own editing. Its a skill like any other, and you learn it by doing it, and early on, being thick skinned to critiques by other authors. I think it has the benefit of my voice not being watered down, but it means I do get reviews who dont like the way I write.

Having someone else do your editing doesn't guarantee a perfect book. I've seen plenty of examples of professionally edited books, that still needed a lot of work, and I suspect, many of the problems were introduced by the editor, not the author. So its still a good skill to have, to be able to self edit.

Self editing cost nothing but time. There are threads around where people explain how they go about it.

Covers are also a skill. You learn how to make them, and people here will give you pointers on the mechanics if you ask. They will also help you improve what you first come up with.

In my case, it also helps I have permission to use images already available in a commercial computer game, in exchange for advertising the games in the books front and back matter. And I was lucky to find someone here to design a new ship for me without charge, as he was interested in working with the process involved. If you ask around here, you can often find someone with the skills you need, and you can trade something to get what you need.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I write 12,000 words a day in about six hours. Writing is like a muscle. When you work out frequently, it becomes easier.


Not for me, FWIW as another point of view. I wrote daily for my job (among other things) for 10 years before starting to write fiction. (I did a lot of copywriting & marketing writing--websites, newsletters, catalog copy, ads, etc.) I still write a book in almost exactly the same time as my first book took (4 years ago). Takes me about 5-7 weeks to write a 90-100K book; another 1-2 weeks to edit; 2-3 weeks to think it up and let it grow in my head, do whatever research, etc. (I do tend to write some research-heavy books.) It did for Book 1, and it is for Book 17. I'm writing one now that's going to be almost 140K. That one's taking about 8 weeks, but it's also kicking my behind big-time at 5K a day to finish.

I write on average about 2,500-3,000 words per day. Fewer at the beginning of the book, more at the end of the book.

The "fallow time" each day seems to be necessary for fully developed characters to appear and the "richness" of the book, which is what I think sells, to show up. I also edit very heavily as I go. My editing at the end tends to be fairly minimal. My biggest structural edit ever, on Book 16 in October, took me 3 days--moving things, writing new scenes, etc. I'd say the "first draft" or whatever is 95-98% of "final." I was a copy editor/manager of copy editors for 10 years, so I write very "clean," which makes the editing process go much faster.

I just think it's so individual. That's how it seems when I talk to other authors. Speed, process, whatever.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I write 12,000 words a day in about six hours. Writing is like a muscle. When you work out frequently, it becomes easier.


She was definitely writing more words per hour at the end. The end was last Wednesday; she's only written about 6k since, but we've had guests and Christmas and what have you, so the most important thing has been that she's sat in the writing chair every day after that 5 day marathon and put down words at all.


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## benwest (Oct 22, 2015)

Eric S. Kim said:


> I know that there are several writers who are capable of doing this sort of thing, where they publish a novel each month (for an entire year or more). Personally, I've been planning on doing this for 2016, though I haven't done it before. I remain confident that I could do this, though there is still a little doubt roaming in my thoughts.
> 
> Can anyone who's accomplished this before give me some good advice on how to do the same thing?


Writing small books help. 30K-50K releases. Full-length novels or serial novellas with a beginning middle and end. Writing in less, shall we say, quality-demanding genre definitely helps because it means you can publish your first (or second) draft and not have an army of grammar nazis coming after you in the reviews.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

benwest said:


> Writing small books help. 30K-50K releases. Full-length novels or serial novellas with a beginning middle and end. Writing in less, shall we say, quality-demanding genre definitely helps because it means you can publish your first (or second) draft and not have an army of grammar nazis coming after you in the reviews.


What genres would those be?


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2015)

HSh said:


> I don't pay that much for editing. My covers usually cost 100 dollars or less. Editing can be 100-200 depending on how long my stories are.
> 
> Choose cheaper options or do it yourself. Don't go into debt to release stories. Money goes TOWARDS the author.
> 
> I will invest when it's worth it, but no way would I spend thousands of dollars to release a story.


Are your stories long or shorter? Do you do premade covers mostly, or custom? eBook only or print? (just curious as to why so much variety in price)

Oh, trust me, I won't go into debt for this, it's one reason I'm slow on releases, I don't do it when I don't have the funds, but it doesn't help the feeling that I mostly am just throwing money down the drain. Money hasn't come towards me much yet 

When I researched editors. looking at some 30-40 different ones initially, the editor I eventually choose had rates that seemed pretty in line with the going rate, not crazy high, but seeing how many of you are noting significantly cheaper rates, I'm starting to wonder... I probably should have noted, my novels are primarily in the 90-100k range so far, so maybe that makes a difference?

Aisuru is 105,000 words, and cost $532 for the final proofing. I also should note, I did pay just under $1,000 for a combination of developmental and copy editing, which I will skip on future stories, but I felt the developmental was needed for my first that only had one beta reader and it being my first release.



Amanda M. Lee said:


> I have three editors and even if they all worked on the same book (which they don't) it would only cost me about $600. I do my own covers. I just did 12 covers for a future series last night and it cost me $140.


What length are your books? Do you just have them do a final proofreading or full copyediting?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Anma Natsu said:


> Are your stories long or shorter? Do you do premade covers mostly, or custom? eBook only or print? (just curious as to why so much variety in price)
> 
> Oh, trust me, I won't go into debt for this, it's one reason I'm slow on releases, I don't do it when I don't have the funds, but it doesn't help the feeling that I mostly am just throwing money down the drain. Money hasn't come towards me much yet
> 
> ...


One is a full editor, one is development and one is a straight proofreader. I use them in different combinations depending on what I'm working on. For the most part, the bulk of my books are 60,000-90,000 words.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> What genres would those be?


*chin in hand* What Jim said.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> DIY editing .


Gosh, I would never do that, regardless of my own ability. I think I'd always want a second set of eyes on something before it goes out.


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## Erratic (May 17, 2014)

> What genres would those be?





stoney said:


> *chin in hand* What Jim said.


Genres for young readers. I know, I know, authors for young readers aren't purposely ignoring quality and writing crap books, that's not what I'm saying! HANG ON pitch fork people!!

I'm saying that kids to young twenties-somethings like myself will put up with a lot of bad to read a great story. Proof: We freakin' love fanfiction. Now, most of us are literate and can spot the mistakes, we just don't care as much because we're having fun reading the story, however flawed the execution. Poke around Wattpad if you need more proof. We love stories and storytelling. Perfect grammar is optional.


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## Tyler Danann (Nov 1, 2013)

It's hard for me to to more than one every six months! Let alone one per month! I guess if I wrote short stories of no more than 20,000 words I could stretch to it. A driver could be if a company is paying you for work on demand maybe?


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## Erratic (May 17, 2014)

Tyler Danann said:


> It's hard for me to to more than one every six months! Let alone one per month! I guess if I wrote short stories of no more than 20,000 words I could stretch to it. A driver could be if a company is paying you for work on demand maybe?


Deadlines are a fantastic motivator. If I have weeks to do a project, I'll take weeks to do a project. If I have three days, I'll be at my computer, coffee at hand, fingers on the keyboard, racing the clock. Burnout is real though. Breaks are necessary to keep your brain alive.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Erratic said:


> Deadlines are a fantastic motivator. If I have weeks to do a project, I'll take weeks to do a project. If I have three days, I'll be at my computer, coffee at hand, fingers on the keyboard, racing the clock.


Parkinson's law - "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion" - has done wonders for my output.

It's a powerful concept.


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## robcee (Dec 21, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Don't put your limitations on others.


Yeah, fair enough. I was mostly surprised at the idea. Especially where I'm doing my own editing and covers, that seems pretty far-off what I'm doing now. At some point, I hope to get some help editing, but I'm not there yet.

anyway, yer all amazeballs. carry on!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Matthew Stott said:
 

> Gosh, I would never do that, regardless of my own ability. I think I'd always want a second set of eyes on something before it goes out.


I edit my own work, but I also pay an editor to go through the manuscript. It'd be folly for me to do otherwise.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Matthew Stott said:


> Gosh, I would never do that, regardless of my own ability. I think I'd always want a second set of eyes on something before it goes out.


Their's nuthing rong with eeditng yor oan wurk.

I kid. I kid.


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## J.A. Cipriano (May 27, 2014)

My proofreader charges me $50 per 30,000 words. My main editor charges me $0.004 per word. I use three different cover artists that range from $100-150 per cover. If I'm feeling particularly spendy, I'll use a beta reader at $50-$100 a MS. I do my own formatting. I didn't before, but I learned it over a weekend and it has saved me a lot of time and money. (I'm a programmer by day so this isn't beyond me at all) Aside from my first book, (KIWM) which was a different editor, I've never had anyone complain about my editing. (This is not an invitation to do so  )

My costs per 55k novel are this: $100(proof) + $220 (edits) + $150 (cover) = $470. I'll be honest, I only use the proofreader on my main series books though, so you can subtract $100 from most of them. 

My books make me about $1k a month. So, yes, half my revenue goes to the book coming out that month. If I had better covers/editing, would I sell better? Possibly. I may try that in the future, but more expensive doesn't always mean better. I'm also a firm believer in the bar theory. For most genres once you hit the level of the bar for quality, whatever it is, being better gets you very little most of the time. I'm not sure I'm writing at said bar or not, but I believe my cover artists who do books that sell ten times what mine do and my editor who does the same, are.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Anma Natsu said:


> Are your stories long or shorter? Do you do premade covers mostly, or custom? eBook only or print? (just curious as to why so much variety in price)


All of it. That's why there's so much variety. Sometimes I have short pieces, sometimes long, sometimes print, sometimes not. Sometimes I do my own covers, sometimes I have excellent pre-mades. Lately I use more custom orders. I have 70+ titles up. There's some variety.

When I was starting out, I did everything myself. Everything. I still can if push comes to shove, but it's stressful, time-consuming, and the quality isn't quite as good.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> Parkinson's law - "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion" - has done wonders for my output.
> 
> It's a powerful concept.


Interestingly, not for me. As I said, I write books at the same pace with no hard deadline as with a hard deadline. I have a book to write, and I want to write it. That's my motivator.

Pushing ABOVE that pace is exhausting. Ask me. I'm 130K in, in 7 weeks, and it's Christmas Eve in Australia, but I have to finish the book tomorrow, because I need a week for editing & it has to be up on NY Eve. I'm burned out.

I do much better when I have my own soft deadline and without the pressure. Still the same amount of time, but much less anxiety, and I can keep going much better.

People are different.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> People are different.


Definitely. Different strokes for different folks.

And judging from your backlist, your system clearly works for you.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Their's nuthing rong with eeditng yor oan wurk.


They'res nodding wrung woth editting you're roan werk.

There, thats better.


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## AYClaudy (Oct 2, 2014)

I've been stalking this thread and loving it! Definitely a great motivator for the new year. Thank you all for sharing!  

While I'm not sure I can hit a book a month... I am aiming for one every 2-3 months (at least until May when I go on maternity leave). 

As for costs, I agree with others, I have not spent that much. My covers are each $100 + the cost of the photo (a $69 package from Depositphoto for 150 photos). I also stay on the cheaper side with editing-- .004 cents a word.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> They'res nodding wrung woth editting you're roan werk.
> 
> There, thats better.


Thancks four fixng it Timuthy. I apreceight it.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Thancks four fixng it Timuthy. I apreceight it.


Your welcum.


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> Your welcum.


My brain is dying...

For the book a monthers, how long did it take to get that fast?

My book 1 was started in april/will be pubbed in Feb, but I was dabbling until the end of the year (wrote my NF, had time off etc). Book 2 was drafted during nano but hasn't been edited yet, though I already know the first draft will need 1/4 of the work book 1 did.

I *think* based on word counts and editing progress I can do a full book in maybe 4 or 5 months, but as I'm just starting I hope it gets faster over time. I'm going to learn to outline properly before tackling book 3 which I hope will help both writing and editing, and I'll know my world better each time.

What was your starting speed and how quick did you improve?

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

spellscribe said:


> For the book a monthers, how long did it take to get that fast?
> 
> What was your starting speed and how quick did you improve?


14 months including a long break for the first.
5 weeks for the 2nd.
4 weeks for the 3rd.
4 weeks for 4.
5 weeks for 5.
Then I hit burnout, and health problems.
7 took 4 weeks once I got going on it properly. I had several mis-starts, before doing 6 instead. (7 was supposed to be 6.)

6 was a novella which took much much longer, for its length. But I was lucky to be writing anything at the time.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

It also depends whether you write stand-alones or true series. I suspect true series are faster. For me, since I have new characters (and a lot of secondary characters), backstory, new plotline, etc., for every long novel, there are a few weeks of thinking-up involved where I create all that.

If you want to do a book a month, I think true series (one storyline, one hero/heroine in the case of romance) would be a lot more manageable.

Also shorter. I wrote one 50K book. Took me less than a month for everything. Much faster.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

My thing is I work on more than one story at a time. So I might write 100k in one month, or 21k in another (actual numbers -- my high and low months this year), but it's never all on one story, and there's usually time needed for editing, cover art, etc. You kind of stagger releases. Sometimes I get ahead, and that's great -- I can release faster, or take a bit of a break. Other times I fall behind and have to rush to catch up.

For me, personally, I've been writing stories for fun since I was eight, without any real stop. I'm sure I built up speed and skills in the years of practice, whether I was playing or trying to write serious, important stories.

But I didn't start writing really _fast_ till I had my own laptop, a yearning to write fan fiction, and plenty of time on my hands. It was good practice and helped me a lot with my writing skills, confidence, and just general story structure. I think my writing improved a lot because I had that time to improve before getting "out there" in self-publishing. I hope all the writing I'm doing now is improving my future skills, too. Sometimes I read authors who make me want to weep they write so well--I want to get there, too.

When I think back to before, if I'd had to try to write a story a month, or release one, it probably would've wrecked me. I needed to build up to it. I think most people do.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> When it's your full time job it's quite easy to do a novel a month and overlap the editing process so you're always moving forward. I will write 29 books and five shorts in 2016, and that's with taking seven weeks off and moving. I will also have a good 13 or so extended weekends in there. If you focus and set daily goals, it can be done.


Has anyone thought to officially bust Cartland's Guinness Book of Records record on most novels written in a year? I think the number is 23 at the moment?


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## H.G. Suren (Jan 23, 2012)

Ghostwriters, that's the answer. Nobody can publish a book in a month.
There are plenty websites where you can buy a novel for $1000 or less. Read in, change this or that, an editor, and here we go, you've got a new book.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Suren said:


> Ghostwriters, that's the answer. Nobody can publish a book in a month.
> There are plenty websites where you can buy a novel for $1000 or less. Read in, change this or that, an editor, and here we go, you've got a new book.


Um... there are plenty of people who do. Without ghost writing. Maybe read the thread?


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

As Amanda is aiming at writing 29 full novels in a year, plus assorted shorts and novellas, she would be eligible to take Barbara Cartland's place in the Guinness Book of Records. If she manages to write those 29.

The reason I asked is that I'd think that there already are Indie authors who have written and published more than 23 books in one year, seeing as several state writing as much here in this thread.


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## noirhvy (Dec 29, 2015)

Badly, I think. But pulp writers used to do it all the time. A million words a year  -- sold.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Suren said:


> Ghostwriters, that's the answer. Nobody can publish a book in a month.
> There are plenty websites where you can buy a novel for $1000 or less. Read in, change this or that, an editor, and here we go, you've got a new book.


I don't use ghost writers. I've never even considered it. In fact, I have certain small tells with things in my writing style (mostly small dialogue choices and turns of a phrase) that was enough to tip some of my readers off what my pen name is. I just write quickly, and the bulk of my stuff falls right in the 60,000-90,000 word range. I have things constantly overlapping for editing, formatting and final read-throughs. In fact I keep everything on my desktop in individual folders until it is finished and uploaded. Then I move it to bigger folders when it's done. Right now, in varying stages of completion under two names, I have nine books and one short (the short and one book will be completely done after this weekend, though).
I write about 2,500 words an hour and edit as I go. That generally means it takes about an hour and a half to completely do a chapter. I then send it off to the first editor right away. I tend to write five chapters a day. That is roughly 12,500 words already off to one editor in eight hours of work. I still take most weekends off, too (although not this one because I have final read throughs to do).
In a typical month I can actually write three titles. I work ahead and through two names.
You might not want to cast aspersions on others because YOU can't do something. That doesn't mean they can't. I do this full time and I actually sit down and do the work (sometimes seven days a week depending on what needs to be done). That's the most important piece of the puzzle ... sitting down and doing it.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

noirhvy said:


> Badly, I think. But pulp writers used to do it all the time. A million words a year -- sold.


I wrote more than two million words last year. My stuff is really crappy.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I wrote more than two million words last year. My stuff is really crappy.


Yep, I am reading some of that crap right now.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I wrote more than two million words last year. My stuff is really crappy.


Okay, that clocks in at at least 40 Harlequin romances in a year. Do we suggest you to Guinness?


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

robcee said:


> Why would anyone want to do this? I know it takes me awhile to edit something I've written. It usually takes two or three passes to get it right. Are we talking full, 100k word novels here?
> 
> I think the quality would suffer too much.
> 
> Or you could use the James Patterson approach and hire a class full of students to crank on the typewriters. Quality be damned!


I don't write this fast, but I know authors who do and put out amazing work. Also, by most standards, "novel" starts at around 45k-50k.

I think one thing that should be noted is that publishing a book a month doesn't necessarily start with publishing the first book the first month. If you can write a book in a month and also keep up with editing and other prepublication tasks, it might take you a few months to get the first one ready, but in the meantime you are filling the pipeline for subsequent months.

There are multiple methods for increasing productivity. I've found the best advice is to not try to go from 250 words a day to 5k overnight. The people who compare writing to developing a muscle are right. If you set yourself unreasonable goals at the outset you will fail. However, if you "exercise" consistently, almost anyone can improve their output.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Atunah said:


> Yep, I am reading some of that crap right now.


Oh, Thank you for reading my crap.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

IreneP said:


> I think one thing that should be noted is that publishing a book a month doesn't necessarily start with publishing the first book the first month. If you can write a book in a month and also keep up with editing and other prepublication tasks, it might take you a few months to get the first one ready, but in the meantime you are filling the pipeline for subsequent months.


Exactly. I have one book at my big editor. Two waiting to go to him when he's done. Four novels and one short that need final read throughs. I only do the main writing on one book at a time. I should finish the one I'm working on Friday and then start something else before doing the editing on it. I overlap stuff everywhere.


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## Craig Martelle (Feb 6, 2016)

Writing a novel a month takes daily goals - I track my word count and pages with a daily spreadsheet, but I'm a reformed business geek (helped me to retire early). As the stories flow, get them down - so much easier to edit later than get caught up editing as you go. The blank page will stare at you as you wonder about how clumsy that last sentence was. When you have it, the story tells itself. Edit later to smooth it and clean it up. If you don't believe your story or you're distracted by trying to work in the ultimate plot twist to rivet the audience, stop it! Climb into your world and tell the story. You'll find yourself narrating, while your fingers type.

Marketing and such is the biggest distraction for me. I like to write and from the feedback I've gotten on my first book, people like the the character development and story flow. At some point, maybe I'll worry less about that stuff.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

robcee said:


> Why would anyone want to do this? I know it takes me awhile to edit something I've written. It usually takes two or three passes to get it right. Are we talking full, 100k word novels here?
> 
> I think the quality would suffer too much.
> 
> Or you could use the James Patterson approach and hire a class full of students to crank on the typewriters. Quality be damned!





Amanda M. Lee said:


> Don't put your limitations on others.


Thank you.

Can we just move on past the fast equals crap myth? That horse is so dead, there's only bones to beat.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Can we just move on past the fast equals crap myth? That horse is so dead, there's only bones to beat.


Some folks want to grind up those bones and snort the dust, I guess.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

This is a fascinating topic. If writing novels is your full-time job (and you're not independently wealthy), I get that there's pressure to produce. But for anyone else, I don't know why you'd want to write a book that quickly.  You'd have to skimp on editing and I'd think your writing skills would stagnate without improvement.  Now, I have a full-time job and two children, so my writing time is limited, but even still, I workshop everything through my writing critique group, which helps me tighten up dialogue, add (and subtract, when necessary) detail, become more concise, and construct new plot points. You'd miss out on that. After writing a novel, it takes about a year to workshop it, although the two can overlap; you can write later chapters while workshopping earlier ones. Writing is communicating; how can you write effectively without trustworthy feedback?

I wrote a novel during Nanowrimo a couple of years ago and finished the first draft in about six weeks. I then spent about fourteen months editing and perfecting it, which to me was invaluable. Obviously, this is a different process than some of you, and I mean no disrespect, but to me if you don't take the time to get your prose as good as possible, to eliminate every typos and grammatical error, to make every line pop, you aren't showing respect to your readers. But maybe that isn't as necessary in certain genres where the audience isn't as discerning?

Best,

-w


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Rigsby said:


> This is a fascinating topic. If writing novels is your full-time job (and you're not independently wealthy), I get that there's pressure to produce. But for anyone else, I don't know why you'd want to write a book that quickly. You'd have to skimp on editing and I'd think your writing skills would stagnate without improvement. Now, I have a full-time job and two children, but even still, I workshop everything through my writing critique group, which helps me tighten up dialogue, add (and subtract, when necessary) detail, become more concise, and construct new plot points. You'd miss out on that. After writing a novel, it takes about a year to workshop it, although the two can overlap; you can write later chapters while workshopping earlier ones. Writing is communicating; how can you write effectively without trustworthy feedback?
> 
> I wrote a novel during Nanowrimo a couple of years ago and finished the first draft in about six weeks. I then spent about fourteen months editing and perfecting it, which to me was invaluable. Obviously, this is a different process than some of you, and I mean no disrespect, but to me if you don't take the time to get your prose as good as possible, to eliminate every typos and grammatical error, to make every line pop, you aren't showing respect to your readers. But maybe that isn't as necessary in certain genres where the audience isn't as discerning?
> 
> ...


if you feel the need to limit yourself and say what you're capable of doing, you definitely should do that. Not everyone lives life trying to limit themselves. As for discerning readers, I would assume the book you spent more than a year perfecting is burning up the charts. Are you independently wealthy yet?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Wow, case in point! 

*But for anyone else, I don't know why you'd want to write a book that quickly.*

Many writers have gotten to the point in their craft that they can write thousands of words a day. Most of which are publishable and not just dross slathered on the screen. Some write quickly because they can.

*You'd have to skimp on editing and I'd think your writing skills would stagnate without improvement.*

Many writers who write fast hire editors, just as writers who don't write fast. Writing fast and using editors aren't mutually exclusive.

Writing skills improve by writing. Workshopping something for a year most likely won't improve writing skills.

*After writing a novel, it takes about a year to workshop it*

A year for one book--ain't no one got time for that, especially no one who wants to make a living at indie writing.

*Writing is communicating; how can you write effectively without trustworthy feedback?*

Feedback from my betas, editors, and (ultimately) readers are all the feedback I need. I get the first two over the course of a couple weeks at most. If a beta took more than a month to get feedback to me, I'd find another beta.

*I wrote a novel during Nanowrimo a couple of years ago and finished the first draft in about six weeks. I then spent about fourteen months editing and perfecting it, which to me was invaluable.*

Congrats on the perfect book. Do you still write? Where's the challenge in writing if you've got a perfect one on the shelves already? Wouldn't every other book you write pale in comparison or are you publishing perfect prose every 15 months or so?


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## amy_wokz (Oct 11, 2014)

TimothyEllis said:


> There, thats better.


Have the apostrophe police caught up with you yet?


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> if you feel the need to limit yourself and say what you're capable of doing, you definitely should do that. Not everyone lives life trying to limit themselves. As for discerning readers, I would assume the book you spent more than a year perfecting is burning up the charts. Are you independently wealthy yet?


Hello, Amanda,

I don't understand the point of your comment. As I said, I mean no disrespect, but was just trying to contrast my own experience with the point of this thread to try to enrich the discussion. As I also said, I can see how someone for whom writing novels is their full-time job has to produce more frequently.

As a matter of fact, I AM independently wealthy, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.

I am sorry, I didn't intend to make you defensive. Different people have different goals.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Eric S. Kim said:


> I know that there are several writers who are capable of doing this sort of thing, where they publish a novel each month (for an entire year or more). Personally, I've been planning on doing this for 2016, though I haven't done it before. I remain confident that I could do this, though there is still a little doubt roaming in my thoughts.
> 
> Can anyone who's accomplished this before give me some good advice on how to do the same thing?


For me, I never planned to write a book a month, it just happened. I have an idea, I start to write, it takes about a month before it is ready to be published. How can one tell another writer how to do that? It just happens.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

hmmm when it comes to writing advice who am I going to take more seriously. The semi-anonymous poster who equates fast writing with low quality? Or the multi-published authors with fantastic sales and reviews?

The decision isn't that hard.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rigsby said:


> This is a fascinating topic. If writing novels is your full-time job (and you're not independently wealthy), I get that there's pressure to produce. But for anyone else, I don't know why you'd want to write a book that quickly. You'd have to skimp on editing and I'd think your writing skills would stagnate without improvement. Now, I have a full-time job and two children, so my writing time is limited, but even still, I workshop everything through my writing critique group, which helps me tighten up dialogue, add (and subtract, when necessary) detail, become more concise, and construct new plot points. You'd miss out on that. After writing a novel, it takes about a year to workshop it, although the two can overlap; you can write later chapters while workshopping earlier ones. Writing is communicating; how can you write effectively without trustworthy feedback?
> 
> I wrote a novel during Nanowrimo a couple of years ago and finished the first draft in about six weeks. I then spent about fourteen months editing and perfecting it, which to me was invaluable. Obviously, this is a different process than some of you, and I mean no disrespect, but to me if you don't take the time to get your prose as good as possible, to eliminate every typos and grammatical error, to make every line pop, you aren't showing respect to your readers. But maybe that isn't as necessary in certain genres where the audience isn't as discerning?
> 
> ...


You are assuming a lot, aren't you? First you assume that it takes a year to perfect a book - well, chum, it might take you a year but not a real author. Then you assume the editing of a fast book must be sloppy - well perhaps yours is, I wouldn't know. Now, as Amanda has asked the question, how far up the charts has your carefully prepared book taken you? Those who can do; those who can't preach to those who can.


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## amy_wokz (Oct 11, 2014)

I love the smell of writer blood in the morning! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPXVGQnJm0w


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Jim Johnson said:


> Wow, case in point!
> 
> *But for anyone else, I don't know why you'd want to write a book that quickly.*
> 
> ...


Hello Jim,

Thanks for your responses (although I could have done without the snark at the end, which seems out of line with my politely-worded post and the rest of your reply).

As I acknowledged in my first post, I concede that if you want to make a living as an indy writer, you have to produce frequently. Again, I don't mean any disrespect, but to further understand the mindset of those who write a book a month by contrasting my own experience.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rigsby said:


> Hello, Amanda,
> 
> I don't understand the point of your comment. As I said, I mean no disrespect, but was just trying to contrast my own experience with the point of this thread to try to enrich the discussion. As I also said, I can see how someone for whom writing novels is their full-time job has to produce more frequently.
> 
> ...


I don't think Amanda was being defensive, more explaining that we don't all need two years to write a decent novel. You are now saying you are independently wealthy when just now you said you had a full time job. Which is it? Everyone who comes along insulting others with their assumptions will try to justify it with 'I meant no offence'. Of course you did. You said the editing is bound to suffer; you said full time writers would have to write that fast; you said writing done that fast would not improve. All these points are absolute rubbish.

If you need 14 months to edit and perfect a novel, you are lacking in the necessary skills so it is as well you are independently wealthy.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Doglover said:


> You are assuming a lot, aren't you? First you assume that it takes a year to perfect a book - well, chum, it might take you a year but not a real author. Then you assume the editing of a fast book must be sloppy - well perhaps yours is, I wouldn't know. Now, as Amanda has asked the question, how far up the charts has your carefully prepared book taken you? Those who can do; those who can't preach to those who can.


Hello doglover,

I am assuming nothing; I'm merely reciting my own experience in order to start a dialogue. I also don't toss insults around, and I'm sorry you (apparently) took my post that way.

However, from some of these responses, it seems as though the entire project from start to finish doesn't take one month for you folks; it takes longer with the editing added in. Do you then start another project while an earlier one is being edited?

Best,

--w


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rigsby said:


> Hello Jim,
> 
> Thanks for your responses (although I could have done without the snark at the end, which seems out of line with my politely-worded post and the rest of your reply).
> 
> As I acknowledged in my first post, I concede that if you want to make a living as an indy writer, you have to produce frequently. Again, I don't mean any disrespect, but to further understand the mindset of those who write a book a month by contrasting my own experience.


But your post was not politely worded. Your post was patronising and condescending and on a par with all the unknowledgeable who think anything done quickly is not as good as something that takes months. It is not a question of having to write books quickly; it is a question of having the skills and the imagination and the need to do so and I don't mean the financial need.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rigsby said:


> Hello doglover,
> 
> I am assuming nothing; I'm merely reciting my own experience in order to start a dialogue. I also don't toss insults around, and I'm sorry you (apparently) took my post that way.
> 
> ...


I don't because I do my own editing. But you are still missing the point, whether deliberately or not I cannot tell. Your experience is irrelevant here as you are assuming editing must suffer, writing must suffer if we don't all take as long as you about it. That is arrogant, and if you can't see it, I shan't bother trying to explain.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Doglover said:


> I don't think Amanda was being defensive, more explaining that we don't all need two years to write a decent novel. You are now saying you are independently wealthy when just now you said you had a full time job. Which is it? Everyone who comes along insulting others with their assumptions will try to justify it with 'I meant no offence'. Of course you did. You said the editing is bound to suffer; you said full time writers would have to write that fast; you said writing done that fast would not improve. All these points are absolute rubbish.
> 
> If you need 14 months to edit and perfect a novel, you are lacking in the necessary skills so it is as well you are independently wealthy.


I am sorry, doglover, I really mean no offense, and there was truly no snark or insult intended. I'm really, really sorry you read any of that into my post. I am actually envious of your skill in being able to do this, and simply want to learn more about the process, to fully understand how some of you are able to write that fast. If my points are rubbish, please explain. Do you include the editing time in the "one month-from-start-to-finish" calculation? Do you have a full-time editor who reviews your manuscripts, or do you do the editing yourself?

I am both independently wealthy and have a full-time job. The two are not incompatable. But that is irrelevant; we are here as writers, and writers should support each other, yes?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Doglover said:


> I don't because I do my own editing. But you are still missing the point, whether deliberately or not I cannot tell. Your experience is irrelevant here as you are assuming editing must suffer, writing must suffer if we don't all take as long as you about it. That is arrogant, and if you can't see it, I shan't bother trying to explain.


It's deliberate. I realized after the fact. This is just someone trying to bait everyone. Clearly someone is bored and doesn't have enough to do with their time.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It's deliberate. I realized after the fact. This is just someone trying to bait everyone. Clearly someone is bored and doesn't have enough to do with their time.


I think you are right, Amanda. No wonder it takes him fourteen months to perfect a book.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Doglover said:


> I don't because I do my own editing. But you are still missing the point, whether deliberately or not I cannot tell. Your experience is irrelevant here as you are assuming editing must suffer, writing must suffer if we don't all take as long as you about it. That is arrogant, and if you can't see it, I shan't bother trying to explain.


Not at all. I was hoping for a response along the lines of: I don't need to that that long, and here is why: ____.

I think my experience is relevant, in that perhaps you (or one of the other posters) could explain what you're cutting out of the process to make it go quicker. Again, I am really curious about how one does this. For instance, my one nanowrimo experience was exhausting and I couldn't imagine doing that every month of the year. But again, everyone is different and brings different skills to the table. Also, perhaps, you have hired an editor or have a group of beta readers who give you feedback within a set amount of time.

Let me ask you this--are you able to produce work so frequently by working on multiple projects at a time, so, for example, starting a new novel while one is sent out for editing/feedback? Is that one of the time savers? If so, how many projects would you say you work on simultaneously?

Thanks,

-w


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It's deliberate. I realized after the fact. This is just someone trying to bait everyone. Clearly someone is bored and doesn't have enough to do with their time.


This makes me sad.

I have never tried to bait anyone on a message board in my life, and it saddens me that when I find a board for people that share my most precious interest, that is how I am seen.

Take care, Amanda. Good luck in your future endeavors.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Boyd said:


> Writing fast doesn't have to mean poor quality. For some people, you do need to labor in the beginning, spend untold months with critique groups as you hone your writers voice. Some don't. Some grow beyond the beginning pains. Some people here are professional authors who know as much or more about the book selling business as the big 5. That's no exaggeration. Some people self edit, some people don't have the time or the skills and when they write the end, they send it off to editing and start on the next project.
> 
> Yes, I know of some writers who are very prolific and their sales numbers stink. They fix this by selling workshops and classes on how to be a writer to other writers. Yes, I cringe because what most authors need to learn is their market. What their market wants. Genre tropes, beats... Cover expectations etc. Once you know that and you are comfortable in that world, let 'er rip. Who's to say a book that was written in 6 days is a poor work? Sometimes yes, but look at the sales data, ranks before deciding if their methods stink or not.


Thanks, Boyd.

Yes, you are 100% correct--there are masterpieces that have been written in days, just like there are great works of music written in hours. I can see how one becomes more efficient with experience, and that it may become easier to write quickly once you've been writing regularly for many years.

How do you handle writer's block--I don't mean losing the motivation to write for a week, I mean simply not knowing what should happen next in your story? Do you put the story aside and start a new one while letting it ruminate? Or do you just forge ahead as best you can? Sometimes I go through periods of indecision when I'm not sure how to proceed, and then maybe it dawns on me several weeks later. Obviously, that's something that (hopefully!) improves with experience, but notwithstanding that, do you simply try to make sure that you are working on SOMETHING every day--even if you have to start something new? Is that one of the keys?

The market point you make is very good, too. Edgar Rice Burroughs was able to churn out hundreds of novels because he knew what his audience wanted, and knew the characters and worlds he'd already created. I guess one key to doing this is to stay within the same niche?


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Boyd said:


> I write between 6000-10,000 words per day. Let's say the average book is 80,000 words... a full time author writing mon-friday has roughly 20 working days a month, yes? 20 days x 6k-10x 120k to 200k a month output. That's enough for 2-3 novels a month for me. Now, that's just me. Everyone is different. If you want to know more about streamlining your process and becoming more efficient with your time and how long it takes to write a book... part time, full time or whatever... Here's 3 books I'd recommend.
> 
> 2k - 10k by Rachel Aaron
> 5k an hour by Chris Fox
> ...


Thanks Boyd--that's very helpful. I'll grab those books and read through them. Honestly, writing a book a month is something that never occurred to me to even try, which is why this is fascinating to me. May I ask one more question--you say you write 6,000-10,000 words a day, which to me is a lot--did you find that your speed increased as you gained experience? How long had you been writing regularly before you could get to that pace?

Best,

-w


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## hunterone (Feb 6, 2013)

Eric S. Kim said:


> I know that there are several writers who are capable of doing this sort of thing, where they publish a novel each month (for an entire year or more). Personally, I've been planning on doing this for 2016, though I haven't done it before. I remain confident that I could do this, though there is still a little doubt roaming in my thoughts.
> 
> Can anyone who's accomplished this before give me some good advice on how to do the same thing?


I used to think it was impossible. Not anymore. I get out around 3 a month now.

It's more of a mental game than anything

1. Don't fret over it being amazing ( most books aren't )
2. Realize that the sooner you get it done the sooner you can move on to the next
3. Even if you are praised up by 100's. There will 100's who turn their nose up at you ( so dont try to make it the best in the world. Just tell the story move on )
4. Use your time wisely. Stop watching TV if need be. Sit your ass in the chair
5. Use sprints if it helps ( set a timer for 5 mins, go dont do anything else ) then set it for 20 mins go... soon you will get into a habit of writing without stopping and checking internet
6. Set a goal of X amount a day words ( i aim for between 5,000 to 7,500 ) Determine your NON NEGOITABLE. Its like losing weight. You might want to lose 20lbs and thats great but saying ok.... I must lose 1lb a week ( is easier ) anything above is great. So for me that is 5000 words a day. I don't stop until its done even if its means writing late a night, going without watching TV etc.
7. Don't buy into this crap that if you write fast its bad. ( that is utter nonsense that i used to believe )


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Boyd said:


> I've been writing off and on my whole life. Publishing is a new thing for me. I've only done that for the last couple years. With practice and experimentation, you can gain speed. I think your creative juices and your hands/wrists need exercise to get up to a certain level. The creative side... I believe Chris Fox calls it Flow State in his book. For me, developing a routine helps drop me into a flow state. Then I experimented with my sprinting.... for me, I used to sprint for 25 minutes and break for 5 minutes. I averaged oh... 1000 to 1100 words a sprint that way. By changing it up to 30 minutes writing, 10 minute breaks, I was able to push my wordcount average to 1300-1800 per sprint. It's little things like that.
> 
> Once I had figured out when I need to write (time of day, due to life, kids, exhaustion levels etc) then I had to use that time well until it was time to go to work. After a couple years, I was making 3-4x what my dayjob was paying me... I realized that with more hours in the day to write I could earn more. I'd love to say I'm working just as hard as it sounds like I do, but I get some writers block once in a while.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Boyd. I appreciate your taking the time for me. Sounds like outlining in advance is an integral part of the process. I'll definitely take a look at Fox's book. Most of my writing occurs in two-to-three hour blocks at Starbucks while my daughter is at swim practice, so perhaps the sprinting methodology would best fit my schedule.

On the editing side, I suppose one of the factors is to know when to walk away and declare yourself done. I'm afraid I'm an incessant tinkerer--I can spend an hour on a paragraph at times. I wonder if certain personality types are better suited for this approach than others.

Thanks again and best of luck in the future,

--w


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

A year workshopping a novel!  That seems crazy. I could understand it for a first novel where you are inexperienced and not confident in your craft but for every novel? I think writers get to a certain stage where too much input from others is counter-productive. Get a couple of trusted betas and leave it at that. A novel shouldn't be written by committee.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

JLCarver said:


> You have to understand that, saying a fast writer doesn't care about her readers is, at its face, insulting. Indie writers here--and I would go so far as to say the vast majority of them--care about their readers. To suggest otherwise is flipping them the verbal bird.


I believe someone is leading people on here. Less to insult, more likely you are all doing either his homework, or an article for a magazine or possibly a report/research for college or uni for him. It has that taste.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

kathrynoh said:


> A year workshopping a novel! That seems crazy. I could understand it for a first novel where you are inexperienced and not confident in your craft but for every novel? I think writers get to a certain stage where too much input from others is counter-productive. Get a couple of trusted betas and leave it at that. A novel shouldn't be written by committee.


It's tricky, and it certainly isn't for everyone. It only works for me because of the quality of the people in the group--for instance we have poets who help focus on particular word choice, an essayist who is a creative writing professor at a nearby university, who helps tighten each sentence, several novelists who focus on different genres and age groups, etc. The novelists in the group can read between 5-7 pages a week, which allows editing on a real micro scale, and after the work is complete, we read it through separately to try to identify larger issues with pacing and confusing or repetitive detail, etc.

It can be counter-productive--you have to know when to stick to your guns and not let the others in the group write the story for you, which is sometimes very difficult. Over time, we've started to meld into a somewhat similar writing style, so there is less of that now than there was four or five years ago. But often the group can identify issues or missing details that can really help bring the story to life. How necessary is it? How much would these details really impact a reader's enjoyment? I honestly don't know. But over time, it's helped us--me--identify missing elements on our own. Reading six pages at a time--aloud--also helps identify where the story is dragging, which sentences can be rearranged to have more impact, and where there's too much unnecessary backstory.

It's certainly a different process, and not for everyone, just like writing a book a month isn't for everyone. Often though, holding an open discussion reveals things that can be improved that everyone would have missed had they read the book alone, by themselves, in their feedback.

Obviously, you can't take that approach if your goal is to publish six or ten works a year--there isn't time. Or at least you can't workshop everything you write; maybe just the first book in a series to help get it down and then do the rest yourself, quickly.

What I've been trying to do is to write a novel while my previous one is being workshopped, so there isn't any downtime, but even still, it's more than a year between finished works.

I'd like to try writing three books in three months, though. Both approaches undoubtedly build different skills which are useful.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

JLCarver said:


> You have to understand that, saying a fast writer doesn't care about her readers is, at its face, insulting. Indie writers here--and I would go so far as to say the vast majority of them--care about their readers. To suggest otherwise is flipping them the verbal bird.


Again, I apologize. Some background, I'm an attorney, not a recently admitted attorney, most of my friends and acquaintances are attorneys, and this is how we speak and write to each other, no insult ever intended. Essentially I was taking the role of skeptic, expecting push-back and providing the opportunity for you to address the fallacies in my statement. If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong logically. I identified the questions I have about the process--I wanted someone to convince me why one can be an effective writer producing work at that speed. Boyd did a terrific job, BTW.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

> The novelists in the group can read between 5-7 pages a week, which allows editing on a real micro scale, and after the work is complete, we read it through separately to try to identify larger issues with pacing and confusing or repetitive detail, etc.


I'd see that as a real problem. Fix the macro stuff before even thinking about the micro stuff. Why tinker around with a chapter that might end up being cut?

I've worked with critique groups and taken writing classes in the past and they do help develop skills and confidence but if you want to publish fast, having someone read 5-7 pages a week isn't going to cut it. A good beta or developmental editor can do the same thing much faster.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Right, the key factor is the speed in which you want to publish. Clearly, the benefit of a critique group is routed in the ability and the mindset of the members of the group--for it to work, everyone has to be invested in helping the others as much as getting feedback for their own projects. I've heard horror stories about groups where the members are self-centered and there isn't much benefit. I think a good group can be better than a single editor, though, simply because there are multiple points of view and everyone, whether they want to or not, has their won editing "niche."

Let me ask you this: do you think you're missing out on anything by writing and publishing quickly?


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Boyd said:


> I must admit, your OP though kinda got my fur up a minute... but that's because we've been trolled and squeezed for information and then vilified when what we do doesn't work for everybody. I decided to take a chance and engaged with an open mind. Hopefully, we've been able to help. Sometimes (this is me talking, not every writer, just me) it's hard to tell who is being sincere and who's just going 'tee hee, lets push buttons just to push buttons'. Sadly, it happens so I'm on guard. Also- Experience level varies depending on where some folks are at in their careers.
> 
> Some folks do this part time, fitting it in whenever they can between work / kids etc. Some folks do it because they have a spouse who's a neurosurgeon and they have to do something to fill their time... or they feel the need to create art... and then there's different levels of full timers. I'm just speaking for myself, but threads/comments where someone doesn't believe a fast/prolific writer can write and sell good kinda rub me raw because I consider myself somewhat prolific, and I think I sell ok.


I certainly appreciate your responses and input. Art is art. I live in a town with a full, vibrant community of artists, and not all of it works for everyone--but no matter what your media, you have to do what you do because you want to express yourself, and the process is right for you. I think the best answer to the trolls would simply be along the lines of: it's not for everyone, and some people have trouble retaining quality at a high speed, but if you want to try it here's how: __.

You have made me curious enough to want to try it, though--maybe during the summer when the kids are at camp.....


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

Rigsby said:


> Again, I apologize. Some background, I'm an attorney, not a recently admitted attorney, most of my friends and acquaintances are attorneys, and this is how we speak and write to each other, no insult ever intended. Essentially I was taking the role of skeptic, expecting push-back and providing the opportunity for you to address the fallacies in my statement. If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong logically. I identified the questions I have about the process--I wanted someone to convince me why one can be an effective writer producing work at that speed. Boyd did a terrific job, BTW.


It is how you and your attorney friends talk to one another, not how all attorneys talk with their attorney friends or how all attorneys talk to non-attorneys. Just as in law, their are fast writers and there are plodders. You know the plodders, the ones who are always getting their billed hours reduced because they took 40 hours to write an eight hour brief. Believe it or not, you can IRAC a story just like you can IRAC a case.


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## amy_wokz (Oct 11, 2014)

Rigsby said:


> You have made me curious enough to want to try it, though ...


You may wish to try Dragon voice dictation software as well. It may help.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

I don't cut anything out of the process, my editing does not suffer, my writing improves like anything else with experience, yet you say you don't mean to offend.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rigsby said:


> Again, I apologize. Some background, I'm an attorney, not a recently admitted attorney, most of my friends and acquaintances are attorneys, and this is how we speak and write to each other, no insult ever intended. Essentially I was taking the role of skeptic, expecting push-back and providing the opportunity for you to address the fallacies in my statement. If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong logically. I identified the questions I have about the process--I wanted someone to convince me why one can be an effective writer producing work at that speed. Boyd did a terrific job, BTW.


Having read your explanation of your year long workshop, with poets choosing words and novelists who are really slow readers, I have to be convinced that anything produced that way would be worth reading. Where is the spontaneity? Where is the emotion, the exclamations, the everyday speech? I can imagine everyone in your novels talking as though they were in a Shakespearean play and using words nobody would ever use in speech.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Doglover said:


> Having read your explanation of your year long workshop, with poets choosing words and novelists who are really slow readers, I have to be convinced that anything produced that way would be worth reading. Where is the spontaneity? Where is the emotion, the exclamations, the everyday speech? I can imagine everyone in your novels talking as though they were in a Shakespearean play and using words nobody would ever use in speech.


That's a concern I had never considered. before, and I suppose it could happen, depending on the makeup of the group. Like with your process, it comes down to whether you can tell there's a difference or not upon reading a few chapters. When it comes to dialogue, the feedback we give and receive focuses more on whether a particular character would sound a certain way, and would even say certain things. As an example, the story I'm working on now revolves around two 12-year-olds in 1949, and there are times my dialogue makes them sound ten years older than that which I am tone-deaf toward. We have several seventy-year-olds in our group, too, and they help with period-specific slang. 

You do make a good point. I was going to raise Tolkien's LOTR as an example of a book that was more or less workshopped (as I understand it, don't flame me) and took a long time to produce--but he did have that problem with the Shakespearean language toward the end, with Aragorn, especially, often using "thee" and "thou" in his speech, IIRC.

But let me turn that around--do you spend any extra time tinkering with your dialogue, or do you tend to leave it as is, based on the way you initially heard it in your head?


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## blubarry (Feb 27, 2015)

Rigsby said:


> It's tricky, and it certainly isn't for everyone. It only works for me because of the quality of the people in the group--for instance we have poets who help focus on particular word choice, an essayist who is a creative writing professor at a nearby university, who helps tighten each sentence, several novelists who focus on different genres and age groups, etc. The novelists in the group can read between 5-7 pages a week, which allows editing on a real micro scale, and after the work is complete, we read it through separately to try to identify larger issues with pacing and confusing or repetitive detail, etc.
> 
> It can be counter-productive--you have to know when to stick to your guns and not let the others in the group write the story for you, which is sometimes very difficult. Over time, we've started to meld into a somewhat similar writing style, so there is less of that now than there was four or five years ago. But often the group can identify issues or missing details that can really help bring the story to life. How necessary is it? How much would these details really impact a reader's enjoyment? I honestly don't know. But over time, it's helped us--me--identify missing elements on our own. Reading six pages at a time--aloud--also helps identify where the story is dragging, which sentences can be rearranged to have more impact, and where there's too much unnecessary backstory.
> 
> ...


I'm someone who writes quickly as well, but as others have said, that comes with experience and practice. I write 3-15k each day depending on my goals and writing needs. The trick is in getting out of your own way and not in striving for perfection. What is perfection, anyway? What might seem a clever turn of phrase to you and your writing group might annoy another reader. That unnecessary backstory to one person might be the key piece another reader enjoys. This is why the advice on this forum is to avoid reading your reviews. Every book considered a classic will have people who hated it. For every book you hate, there will be people who loved it.

But... you have to do what works for you. I write quickly, review and clean up what I've written, send it out for edits, and then start again. That works for me and my readers seem to enjoy what I write. I write because I enjoy the process of writing, of creating and exploring the characters, and I've learned that even if I go through my books again and again, there will always be something to change.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

mach 5 said:


> It is how you and your attorney friends talk to one another, not how all attorneys talk with their attorney friends or how all attorneys talk to non-attorneys. Just as in law, their are fast writers and there are plodders. You know the plodders, the ones who are always getting their billed hours reduced because they took 40 hours to write an eight hour brief. Believe it or not, you can IRAC a story just like you can IRAC a case.


That's a good point and an interesting analogy, although they are somewhat different in that the brief will hinge on legal research and precedent and therefore your options are somewhat limited, while when writing a book you can obviously go anywhere you want. Thanks for the comment, Mach 5.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

amy_wokz said:


> You may wish to try Dragon voice dictation software as well. It may help.


Thanks, Amy!


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

blubarry said:


> I'm someone who writes quickly as well, but as others have said, that comes with experience and practice. I write 3-15k each day depending on my goals and writing needs. The trick is in getting out of your own way and not in striving for perfection. What is perfection, anyway? What might seem a clever turn of phrase to you and your writing group might annoy another reader. That unnecessary backstory to one person might be the key piece another reader enjoys. This is why the advice on this forum is to avoid reading your reviews. Every book considered a classic will have people who hated it. For every book you hate, there will be people who loved it.
> 
> But... you have to do what works for you. I write quickly, review and clean up what I've written, send it out for edits, and then start again. That works for me and my readers seem to enjoy what I write. I write because I enjoy the process of writing, of creating and exploring the characters, and I've learned that even if I go through my books again and again, there will always be something to change.


That's wonderful advice, blubarry, and I think it neatly sums up the differences expressed here.

Best,

--w


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## noirhvy (Dec 29, 2015)

Who is Asimov?


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Isaac Asimov--prolific SF author who also wrote texts on subjects as diverse as physics and religion. Passed away probably 20 years ago. Met him as a teenager.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

loganbyrne said:


> I plan to do two novels a month this upcoming year. I found a new system that works for me, and took my output from maybe 2k an hour, to 4k an hour without any problems. I don't outline, just shoot from the hip, though I do know some general plot points I want to happen. These types of books also end up being my highest rated and best selling ones, under a romance pen name, so it works for me. I usually work 2.5-3 hours a day, getting done with 10k-12k words in that time. I space it out in generally one hour chunks throughout the day so I don't get burnt out. It's not something everybody can do, or even hopes to do, but it works for me.


4k an hour i would like to see that. That means you are banging out 1k every 15 mins. (are you using dragon naturally speaking?) Now i'm a fast writer and if i want i can do around 2k an hour which is close to what Amanda ( the speed demon ) does an hour. So the idea you are doing twice that.... are you doing nothing but narrative? As dialogue and quotes and such can slow things down. I've never heard of anyone doing 12k in 3 hours. Maybe 6 but 3?


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## S.E. Gordon (Mar 15, 2011)

> Sounds like outlining in advance is an integral part of the process. I'll definitely take a look at Fox's book. Most of my writing occurs in two-to-three hour blocks at Starbucks while my daughter is at swim practice, so perhaps the sprinting methodology would best fit my schedule.


Let me also throw another book out there: Writing into the Dark by Dean Wesley Smith.

Is outlining really necessary? Is rewriting, for that matter? Mr. Smith addresses these topics (also check out his blog).

For a different perspective on the creative process, please consider his advice.


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## TBD (Mar 14, 2014)

Rigsby said:


> That's a good point and an interesting analogy, although they are somewhat different in that the brief will hinge on legal research and precedent and therefore your options are somewhat limited, while when writing a book you can obviously go anywhere you want. Thanks for the comment, Mach 5.


Not if you are writing to market and reaching for specific sub-sub-sub-genre tropes, voice, etc... ;-)


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

S.E. Gordon said:


> Let me also throw another book out there: Writing into the Dark by Dean Wesley Smith.
> 
> Is outlining really necessary? Is rewriting, for that matter? Mr. Smith addresses these topics (also check out his blog).
> 
> For a different perspective on the creative process, please consider his advice.


Yep. If you want his results, totally consider his advice. Sigh.

Outlining isn't necessary, but it does help many people. I'd recommend "Take Off Your Pants" as a resource instead. It's written by an author who actually sells books.


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## S.E. Gordon (Mar 15, 2011)

> It's written by an author who actually sells books.


To be fair, Dean Wesley Smith and his wife Kristine Kathryn Rusch (who uses the same process, if I'm not mistaken) are both successful authors with hundreds of novels to their credit. Their Amazon rankings might not be impressive, but they sell wide with the majority of their sales coming from print.


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## 鬼 (Sep 30, 2012)

S.E. Gordon said:


> To be fair, Dean Wesley Smith and his wife Kristine Kathryn Rusch (who uses the same process, if I'm not mistaken) are both successful authors with hundreds of novels to their credit. Their Amazon rankings might not be impressive, but they sell wide with the majority of their sales coming from print.


I've worked in 3 different bookstores so far in my life and we never carried any of their books. On the other hand, we did have Hugh Howey, Amanda Hocking, and a few other recognizable names from these parts. And they sold.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Rigsby, I'd like to summarize a few things for you:

The most prolific writers here:

Write every day, often for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, as if they had a real job, which they do, writing.
They edit as they go, part of the day being editing, and part being writing. Also plotting and planning.
They can churn out up to 20,000 words a day, which is edited the following day.
3,000 a day for many here is a bad day, yet 3,000 words a day for 31 days yields an 85,000 word complete novel in a month. And it's already been edited up to 3-4 times as part of the normal edit and write day.
With an already edited book now complete, the edit process only takes a week or 2, depending on how much is found to be done. Experienced writers produce clean drafts, which require very little in the way of editing.
When a book goes into editing, they start working on a new one. It is possible to edit one book in the morning, while you write a new one in the afternoon.
They dont use workshops, or support groups, or anyone else. They may have when they began, but they dont need them now.
They can read a whole book verbally in 1 day or so, depending on size.
I found your comment about reading 6 pages in a week bizarre. I read whole books in a day. On average, my 80k books take me 2 days at most to read on my kindle as part of editing. In a week, I've can have done 4-5 complete reads. Or done 3 with a gap in the middle, because I only needed 3 to find the bugs.

Question for you: You said you are an Attorney - exactly what kind of book did you write? What genre? How long in words? Whats it's title, and where was it published?

This is necessary information for us to assess you, and where your viewpoint is coming from.

If you wrote a book on how to be a successful Attorney, and comparing it to writing a novel about being a successful Attorney, you are comparing apples and oranges.


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## S.E. Gordon (Mar 15, 2011)

> Since you brought it up, can you cite anywhere that sells their print copies?


At one point, Dean Wesley Smith revealed his sales numbers on his blog (a high level view, if I recall correctly). That's what I was referring to.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

Dean has also admitted that he has had an erotica pen name as has Kris, I think. We don't know exactly how many names they have. People have been criticized on kboards for saying "show me your reports" (effectively) as validation of offering writing advice, yet that demand pretty much always comes up with Dean is mentioned. Granted, DWS/WMG charge for their seminars, but they also give a lot away for free (I've only sampled the free). People I know have taken the paid courses (not on selling, but on writing) and found them worth the fee. 

Has he given advice on selling/publishing that I disagree with? Certainly, as have several other "gurus" whose musings are applauded on kboards. Can he be abrasive? You bet (like pretty much everyone in existence at some point or other or on specific topics)! But it's also clear a couple of posters on kboards no longer think rationally when they are discussing Dean or anything to do with WMG publishing.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

S.E. Gordon said:


> Let me also throw another book out there: Writing into the Dark by Dean Wesley Smith.
> 
> Is outlining really necessary? Is rewriting, for that matter? Mr. Smith addresses these topics (also check out his blog).
> 
> For a different perspective on the creative process, please consider his advice.


Thanks!


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> Rigsby, I'd like to summarize a few things for you:
> 
> The most prolific writers here:
> 
> ...


Thanks, Timothy. That's very helpful and informative. Writing eight hours a day sounds exhausting and, for me, it would cease being fun at that point and be more like work (which I suppose it is to these prolific writers). To answer your question, my group meets once a week for three hours. The six or seven pages is read aloud, which can take around 15-20 minutes. Then we spend 20 minutes critiquing and making suggestions, before going to the next writer. We make time for everyone to read what they've brought. Often critiquing others' work impacts your own, of course. Does it take a long time? No question. Does it help? Unquestionably. That is, of course, the trade off.

I prefer not to identify myself, but here is some generic background. I've written several middle grade novels, which is my preferred audience, one of which I've published through my own publishing company when circumstances conspired to make it impossible for me to be patient to sell it to an established publisher. I'm in the process of rewriting the first of these (which was admittedly total crap, written as a gift to my daughter), and I'm also in the middle of drafting an adult novel, which is an audience I've never tackled before but the Gemini in me needed a change. My second middle grade novel is quite long for that age group--about 120,000 words, I think, which made it impossible to sell to a traditional publisher--and I've been thinking about releasing it as a kindle-only serial in six or eight parts, which is something I've never done before, and I'm not sure how that will work out. I've also co-written a history book for a traditional publisher, which was a completely different experience, but made me somewhat of a local celebrity and has opened a number of doors. At the moment, my co-writer mentioned above and I are in the process of creating a literary journal whose first edition is planned for release in early 2017; I am the managing editor, which is taking most of my energy now. For the immediate future I'm more interested in growing my publishing company by publishing (and editing) the works of others than spending all my time writing my own works, which is why the idea of becoming more efficient at writing quickly fascinates me.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Rigsby said:


> Writing eight hours a day sounds exhausting and, for me, it would cease being fun at that point and be more like work (which I suppose it is to these prolific writers).


It is and it isn't. (work). At the time I was doing this, it was more fun than work, as I had something in my head I needed to get out.

For those who bang away, I guess it's work.

For those so rapped up in the story that the real world intrudes into it, its fun.

When you write for 8 hours a day, its also work, regardless of if its fun or not. 



> My second middle grade novel is quite long for that age group--about 120,000 words, I think, which made it impossible to sell to a traditional publisher--and I've been thinking about releasing it as a kindle-only serial in six or eight parts, which is something I've never done before, and I'm not sure how that will work out.


I wouldn't. If it has a natural break point around 60k, release it as 2 novels, otherwise simply release it as it is. Unless this is in a genre where serials are normal, its better these days to release as novel length. Certainly in KU, 120k will generate a good income if you can get it read.



> For the immediate future I'm more interested in growing my publishing company by publishing (and editing) the works of others than spending all my time writing my own works, which is why the idea of becoming more efficient at writing quickly fascinates me.


May I say.....You went about this arse end around.

Instead of choosing this thread, and having a go at those who are so prolific, you should have read the other thread, and started asking intelligent questions there, being its all about HOW to write so much. This thread is a challenge to the whole notion of prolific writing, while the other one is about asking how to do it.

It's always better to ask, than to challenge.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> It is and it isn't. (work). At the time I was doing this, it was more fun than work, as I had something in my head I needed to get out.
> 
> For those who bang away, I guess it's work.
> 
> ...


Lol. Point taken. Let me add that this was a complete accident--I stumbled on this forum through google when seeking an unrelated answer, and happened to notice this thread at the top, which I found fascinating. My being here was not part of some well-planned conspiracy, but I thought I'd take advantage of the opportunity while I was here to find out more.

It's a hidden-world-in-the-backyard kids' adventure story, sort of a cross between Phantom Tollbooth, Neverending Story, and the movie "Time Bandits" (ha, that probably dates myself pretty well). It's really a struggle to decide on the right approach. I prefer to sell print copies, but the expense of manufacturing something of that length will make it difficult to recover my costs given the price range of other books for that age group on the market. Part of the problem is that kids that age tend not to read ebooks, but prefer physical copies, so that has to go into the equation. So I've been considering releasing it as a serial to hopefully create an audience, then follow it up with the entire story in print. I figure if it doesn't work, I've only wasted a few months of time.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Rigsby said:


> It's a hidden-world-in-the-backyard kids' adventure story, sort of a cross between Phantom Tollbooth, Neverending Story, and the movie "Time Bandits." It's really a struggle to decide on the right approach. I prefer to sell print copies, but the expense of manufacturing something of that length will make it difficult to recover my costs given the price range of other books for that age group on the market. Part of the problem is that kids that age tend not to read ebooks, but prefer physical copies, so that has to go into the equation. So I've been considering releasing it as a serial to hopefully create an audience, then follow it up with the entire story in print. I figure if it doesn't work, I've only wasted a few months of time.


In that case, I'd definitely recommend it as a 120k novel. Put it into Select (KU) straight away, unless you plan to go wide immediately.

None of my series are in print yet. Kindle and Print are 2 separate audiences now.



Rigsby said:


> Lol. Point taken. Let me add that this was a complete accident--I stumbled on this forum through google when seeking an unrelated answer, and happened to notice this thread at the top, which I found fascinating. My being here was not part of some well-planned conspiracy, but I thought I'd take advantage of the opportunity while I was here to find out more.


Actually, that's what happened to me. I found the place by accident while surfing something else. And got my arse chewed in my first thread for asking what people were talking about, and why they assumed everyone reading knew what they were talking about.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rigsby said:


> That's a concern I had never considered. before, and I suppose it could happen, depending on the makeup of the group. Like with your process, it comes down to whether you can tell there's a difference or not upon reading a few chapters. When it comes to dialogue, the feedback we give and receive focuses more on whether a particular character would sound a certain way, and would even say certain things. As an example, the story I'm working on now revolves around two 12-year-olds in 1949, and there are times my dialogue makes them sound ten years older than that which I am tone-deaf toward. We have several seventy-year-olds in our group, too, and they help with period-specific slang.
> 
> You do make a good point. I was going to raise Tolkien's LOTR as an example of a book that was more or less workshopped (as I understand it, don't flame me) and took a long time to produce--but he did have that problem with the Shakespearean language toward the end, with Aragorn, especially, often using "thee" and "thou" in his speech, IIRC.
> 
> But let me turn that around--do you spend any extra time tinkering with your dialogue, or do you tend to leave it as is, based on the way you initially heard it in your head?


I rarely change the dialogue unless I think of a bit more to put in. I will, however, insert bits of description if needed, like how someone looked when they said it. I have read manuscripts that people have asked to have critiqued and the dialogue is contrived and stilted. If you start trying to choose the right words for dialogue, that is what you will get.

I have to say, choosing the right words for 12 year olds in 1949 will make or break a story. I have read so-called historical novels where the attitudes and dialogue of the characters are contemporary; all they have done is to write a contemporary story, pick it up and squash it into WW1. It irritates me even more when I see it in so called medieval books; people in the 12th century did not talk about having sex.

But you can do all of that without take a year dissecting and diagnosing. I would have thought the best way to get the right dialogue for a period like that is to read something by one of the good writers from that era, like Agatha Christie or Dorothy L. Sayers.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Doglover said:


> I rarely change the dialogue unless I think of a bit more to put in. I will, however, insert bits of description if needed, like how someone looked when they said it. I have read manuscripts that people have asked to have critiqued and the dialogue is contrived and stilted. If you start trying to choose the right words for dialogue, that is what you will get.
> 
> I have to say, choosing the right words for 12 year olds in 1949 will make or break a story. I have read so-called historical novels where the attitudes and dialogue of the characters are contemporary; all they have done is to write a contemporary story, pick it up and squash it into WW1. It irritates me even more when I see it in so called medieval books; people in the 12th century did not talk about having sex.
> 
> But you can do all of that without take a year dissecting and diagnosing. I would have thought the best way to get the right dialogue for a period like that is to read something by one of the good writers from that era, like Agatha Christie or Dorothy L. Sayers.


Thanks, doglover. I agree somewhat with you; the intended audience has an impact. This story, for instance, is intended for 7-12 year-olds, and at that age if the dialogue seems too unfamiliar, kids will simply stop reading. So there's a balance between trying to remind the reader that the story occurred 65 years ago with trying not to lose their interest. Your comment is on point, though: as initially written the story occurred in the present, but I am moving it back to just after WW2 during the rewrite, which has been enlightening.

Of course, it doesn't take a year to dissect dialogue. That's a small part of what the critiquing process involves. Again, it's a lengthy process and that's both a positive and a negative--a negative because of the time involved, but positive in the sense that you can ruminate on every phrase and paragraph and make sure you're saying what you want to the best of your ability, that your pacing is tight, that the story is as compelling as you are able to make it. There's also no "requirement" that one bring an entire novel to a critique group like that; you can bring just the parts that give you trouble and skip around. You simply have to look at it as another resource that as a writer you can use or not use as would best fit you as you improve your craft. Often, too, the process of helping others tighten up their two-page essays carries over to your own longer work. With the shorter works, you can hammer away at each individual sentence in a way that you can't with an 80,000 word novel.

Not to sound preachy, but as a writer often the best way to improve is to move outside your comfort zone--that may mean writing poetry if you're not a poet, or a creative fiction essay--or possibly in my case, possibly to try to write two novels over a two-month period. It all builds new skills. Maybe for you leaving that comfort zone would involve taking one book and really slowing it down, even as you're continuing to write other works at your normal speed. I've enjoyed this discussion. Best of luck!


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> In that case, I'd definitely recommend it as a 120k novel. Put it into Select (KU) straight away, unless you plan to go wide immediately.
> 
> None of my series are in print yet. Kindle and Print are 2 separate audiences now.
> 
> Actually, that's what happened to me. I found the place by accident while surfing something else. And got my arse chewed in my first thread for asking what people were talking about, and why they assumed everyone reading knew what they were talking about.


Thanks, Timothy. Have you had any experience with releasing a free "teaser" of a book--say, the first 15000 words, and charging for the rest of the story? Does that approach work? My understanding is that releasing your book on kindle in segments is how Hugh Howey built his audience, but maybe I'm wrong about that.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Rigsby said:


> Thanks, Timothy. Have you had any experience with releasing a free "teaser" of a book--say, the first 15000 words, and charging for the rest of the story? Does that approach work? My understanding is that releasing your book on kindle in segments is how Hugh Howey built his audience, but maybe I'm wrong about that.


No, I've not done that. My first novel was 67k, and they got longer after that. 
I have a novella and 2 short stories out as well though.

Things have changed since Hugh's starting times. I didn't even know his name until I kept reading it here.

KU1 rewarded the short story, and the series of short stories. KU2 very quickly shifted things to the longer novel.

It depends on your genre though. In sci-fi, a 60k novel is considered too short by many. My novella gets a great deal less reads than my novels, and about the same as my short stories. Between them, it convinced me to not bother doing shorts, and concentrate on getting novels out. At some point I need to go back to my short series, but I'll release it as a novel length set of short stories, rather than as shorts released separately.



Rigsby said:


> With the shorter works, you can hammer away at each individual sentence in a way that you can't with an 80,000 word novel.


Ummm, why would you want to?

My experience is that between writing and editing, I dont need to 'hammer' on anything. I write the way I want it read. Except for tweaking, and adding or subtracting little bits, I write it the way I want it the first time. I honestly cant imagine needing to hammer away on a single sentence. If it doesn't flow, its not the right sentence. Delete and let something else flow.

But then, I'm not aiming for literary excellence. I write a rollicking yarn. It flows where it wants to, within parameters.

I can see someone wanting to hammer away for literary perfection, but that's not the market I am aiming for. My Space Opera is for people who like to immerse themselves in an alternate universe, and wouldnt necessarily recognize literary excellence if it bit them.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> No, I've not done that. My first novel was 67k, and they got longer after that.
> I have a novella and 2 short stories out as well though.
> 
> Things have changed since Hugh's starting times. I didn't even know his name until I kept reading it here.
> ...


That's neat--it sounds like you really have a focus and a direction. Good luck with your writing!

My answer to your question at the end would simply be that you are building skills that will make you into a better writer, and as time passes you need fewer and fewer line-by-line edits. It's not just a matter of trying to achieve literary excellence--there are too many folks who seem to focus more on drafting the perfect turn of the phrase than on a plot--these are the folks who spend a two pages on having a character walk down the hall and open the door. They're the ones who win the Pulitzers, but I personally don't see the point of it; I don't enjoy reading it. Instead, the goal is really to write each sentence and paragraph as powerfully as possible, without any wasted words. Some of that has to do with word order. Roy Peter Clark, who is a wonderful writing guru, gives an example from Shakespeare of the sentence, "The Queen, my Lord, is dead," and explains why it is superior to other options: "My Lord, the Queen is dead"' "The Queen is dead, my Lord," or in Yoda-speak, "Dead the Queen is." You gradually pick that stuff up and begin doing it automatically, and implementing those sorts of lessons will give your writing more impact. That's really the goal, not to make the dialogue stilted or the novel feel less organic. I think even if your readers aren't literary-minded, making tiny changes like that will allow your prose to hit them harder and be more memorable.

Best,

-w


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Boyd said:


> Since you brought it up, can you cite anywhere that sells their print copies?


Barnes and Noble? Amazon? Direct? Print copies abound. I've seen their books and WMG (their publishing company) books reviewed in PW as well (not that that means anything, necessarily). But they're out there.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> Again, I don't mean any disrespect, but to further understand the mindset of those who write a book a month by contrasting my own experience.


If you don't mean to disrespect people, it's a good idea not to start off by disrespecting them. You made assumptions, based on your method, and went on from there. If you have questions, there's that other thread you were pointed to, and you could just ask.

As for me, I don't outline. I'm a believer in writing into the dark AKA "pantsing" or "pantsting", whichever you prefer. My subconscious works very hard, and when I get out of the way the words just flow. No writing by committee for me, either.

I can write 3K words or more in less than eight hours. Usually takes an hour and a half for 3K. I get up a lot to pee or get water, or take care of the animals, so it's really less than that.

I edit as I go. I also make my own covers. The horror! (You'll need to search about for the threads on those subjects.)

I've been writing since I was a kid. _Back in the sixties._ And gods, do I feel old writing that. I taught myself to write and to type. For years I tried to do the outline thing and only succeeded in driving myself crazy and getting nowhere. Now I follow my muse, and he's been good to me so far, now that I've regained my sanity. (Yeah. My muse is a guy. Go figure.)

All I need to do is be more consistent, i.e., butt in chair, hands on keyboard, and I'm going to rule the world.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

she-la-ti-da said:


> If you don't mean to disrespect people, it's a good idea not to start off by disrespecting them. You made assumptions, based on your method, and went on from there. If you have questions, there's that other thread you were pointed to, and you could just ask.
> 
> As for me, I don't outline. I'm a believer in writing into the dark AKA "pantsing" or "pantsting", whichever you prefer. My subconscious works very hard, and when I get out of the way the words just flow. No writing by committee for me, either.
> 
> ...


You could be telling my life story there. I don't do outlines either, I have an idea, I add some characters and see where they take me. And don't feel old; I was a kid in the fifties.


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## DashaGLogan (Jan 30, 2014)

Just coming off an 8 hour session, I can tell you, it is work and fun at the same time. Very often, after a day of writing, I stand up and feel like "I have done nothing sensible today, I have only indulged myself", even though I produced up to 10000 words and had a read through of those. That's the great thing about being an author, you live by doing what you really love, if you are lucky. And one gets luckier the more one writes.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2016)

I've come to the conclusion that most folks have to write at lightning speed to make good money self-publishing, and they also have to write books according to a genre-specific formula.

Since I can't do the first, and I don't want to do the second, I've changed my perspective and I now treat writing and self-publishing as a hobby. The invaluable tips I've picked up at Kboards has made it a successful one.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Out_there said:


> I've come to the conclusion that most folks have to write at lightning speed to make good money self-publishing, and they also have to write books according to a genre-specific formula.
> 
> Since I can't do the first, and I don't want to do the second, I've changed my perspective and I now treat writing and self-publishing as a hobby. The invaluable tips I've picked up at Kboards has made it a successful one.


I can't agree with either of those statements. If you have the time and not much else to do, a book a month is really not that much. I could do a lot more than that if I were twenty years younger, but I tend to nod off after 2000 words. As to sticking to a formula, couldn't do it, wouldn't even try.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Thanks, everyone.


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

So has anyone gone from an 'agonizing over every word' writer to a 'shoveling books out the door' writer?

New to the game--lots of short stories behind me but only one (100k) polished novel completed, and about 65k into the second. That's taken me a couple of years, although 20k words of the second novel happened in a single week. (Ah, vacation. On a cruise ship.)

That said, I have a full-time, intellectually challenging engineering job, far too many interests, and occasional health problems. I also seem to have two modes: "Type as fast as possible to keep up because the words and emotions are flowing" mode, and "Total bust". It's very hard for me to want to write in "bust" mode, because it feels like I'm _documenting_, not writing. Does anyone know what I mean?

In short, while I think I've got skills, I can't realistically see myself outputting at the level described in this thread without a quality drop. And without quitting my day job.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

KeraEmory said:


> So has anyone gone from an 'agonizing over every word' writer to a 'shoveling books out the door' writer


Sure. It's taken me 19-odd years of writing regularly to get to that point, though. The first decade or so of writing I'd manage maybe 100-125k words a year, agonizing over every one and then spending months editing, revising, polishing, agonizing, etc. After more practice, lots of learning, and lots of reading, I found that my agonizing over words decreased as my writing speed increased. A big piece of it is confidence in your work and your writing. The more confident you are in knowing the first word choice was the right on, then you agonize less and write more.

That's what I've found, anyway. I ended up with about 650k words last year and am working toward a million this year. Not all of them will be published, but it's all practice.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

S.E. Gordon said:


> At one point, Dean Wesley Smith revealed his sales numbers on his blog (a high level view, if I recall correctly). That's what I was referring to.


Dean has a very interesting relationship with the truth. Sorry. They say a lot of things. Very little is verified.

If you want to learn from someone, I'd go with making sure they back up what they say with results, personally. I made the mistake of not doing that for a long time and got very burned from it. Almost killed my career.

There's good info out there from authors who are easily verified as being able to back up what they say. Lindsay Buroker's blog, Russell Blake's blog, "2k to 10k" by Rachel Aaron, "Take Off Your Pants" by Libbie Hawker, "For Love or Money" and "The Indie Author Survival Guide" from Susan Kaye Quinn... lots of good resources to start.

Personally, if you want to get more productive, I'd definitely invest the .99 in "2k to 10k" first. It's one of the best craft and productiveness books out there, imo.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Out_there said:


> I've come to the conclusion that most folks have to write at lightning speed to make good money self-publishing, and they also have to write books according to a genre-specific formula.


I guess it depends on what you consider "lightning speed". It's a matter of relativity.  Some consider 1K a day fast, some slow. Some consider 5K to be a snail's pace. Some are chugging along getting 500 words a day a couple of times a week, but they are consistent and persistent and the work adds up.

Remember, we didn't start out with high word counts. Everyone has to learn and practice and put the time in. In my case, it's been over the course of decades. To me, it's natural. Not an amazing feat by any means. But, that's from this end of history.

About that writing to a "genre-specific formula": if you mean hitting expected tropes, then yes. You must do that in order to sell well. Readers want want they want. The same story told slightly differently. It's always been that way.

Romance readers expect a happy ending. There are certain other things they won't abide (cheating). Erotica readers expect sex.

Military SF readers expect detailed space battles. Prepper fiction readers expect detailed descriptions of supplies and equipment and Conservative heroes. Spy thriller readers expect plot twists and international settings.

Historical novel readers expect lots of accurate historical details and settings. Western readers expect guns, horses and outlaws.

You get the drift? It's not the tropes, it's how you tell the story that sets you apart. Fail to hit those tropes, though, and expect to not do well.



Out_there said:


> Since I can't do the first, and I don't want to do the second, I've changed my perspective and I now treat writing and self-publishing as a hobby. The invaluable tips I've picked up at Kboards has made it a successful one.


Why are you limiting yourself? Have you tried to increase your word speed? Have you put in the time and learned the craft well enough that you don't waste time agonizing over every word? Have you read widely enough in your chosen genre to instinctively understand beats and plotting?

Until a few decades ago, writing quickly was how people supported themselves. Look at any writer from say, the 1930s to 1950s. You'll see that they wrote whatever they had to, as quickly as they could, to bring in the money. They weren't ashamed of it. Lawrence Block talks about it in his book Writing the Novel. You'd be surprised to learn what kind of books he wrote.

That said, there's nothing wrong with writing simply out of love without regard to market. It's an art form, after all. Many of us are writing to earn a living while using our love of the craft and the ability to write quickly and well. And there's nothing wrong with that, either.


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

Annie B said:


> There's good info out there from authors who are easily verified as being able to back up what they say. Lindsay Buroker's blog, Russell Blake's blog, "2k to 10k" by Rachel Aaron, "Take Off Your Pants" by Libbie Hawker, "For Love or Money" and "The Indie Author Survival Guide" from Susan Kaye Quinn... lots of good resources to start.
> 
> Personally, if you want to get more productive, I'd definitely invest the .99 in "2k to 10k" first. It's one of the best craft and productiveness books out there, imo.


Yup. Read those books.


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## KylieG (Oct 30, 2015)

=So has anyone gone from an 'agonizing over every word' writer to a 'shoveling books out the door' writer?=

I believe that first drafts should always be done at lightning pace, but I've done a lot of improvisational theatre and I truly believe that if one learns to free their mind, your first instinct as a writer can be your best.  The key is allowing your mind the freedom to go in odd directions from the get go.  I constantly try and get into a zone where words flow through me and I'm not really questioning or agonizing about those words.  That's what revision is for.  How often has a classic song been written on a napkin or in the back of a tour bus in 15 minutes?


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

> Again, I don't mean any disrespect, but to further understand the mindset of those who write a book a month by contrasting my own experience.


lf I take you at your word that you didn't mean to be condescending, disrespectful, pretentious, and smug--and I'm happy to do that--then I would suggest that all your years of workshopping your words haven't done you as much good as you think, since you seem to have no idea how your words actually come across to the people who will be reading them.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Shelley K said:



> lf I take you at your word that you didn't mean to be condescending, disrespectful, pretentious, and smug--and I'm happy to do that--then I would suggest that all your years of workshopping your words haven't done you as much good as you think, since you seem to have no idea how your words actually come across to the people who will be reading them.


Oh, this forum definitely needs a like button!


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## BeachB (Sep 3, 2013)

Doglover said:


> Oh, this forum definitely needs a like button!


I vote for a like button also!


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

KylieG said:


> I believe that first drafts should always be done at lightning pace, but I've done a lot of improvisational theatre and I truly believe that if one learns to free their mind, your first instinct as a writer can be your best. The key is allowing your mind the freedom to go in odd directions from the get go. I constantly try and get into a zone where words flow through me and I'm not really questioning or agonizing about those words. That's what revision is for. How often has a classic song been written on a napkin or in the back of a tour bus in 15 minutes?


Improv is a GREAT example! They have internalized story structure, timing, etc., usually by lots of practice (although some people just have an ear for it, but that happens from a lot of reading and listening and watching). They can create genius on the spot that doesn't need edited.


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## Dale Ivan Smith (Oct 13, 2015)

Annie B said:


> There's good info out there from authors who are easily verified as being able to back up what they say. Lindsay Buroker's blog, Russell Blake's blog, "2k to 10k" by Rachel Aaron, "Take Off Your Pants" by Libbie Hawker, "For Love or Money" and "The Indie Author Survival Guide" from Susan Kaye Quinn... lots of good resources to start.
> 
> Personally, if you want to get more productive, I'd definitely invest the .99 in "2k to 10k" first. It's one of the best craft and productiveness books out there, imo.


Agreed! These are all excellent resources. Highly recommended!


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## S.E. Gordon (Mar 15, 2011)

> Dean has a very interesting relationship with the truth. Sorry. They say a lot of things. Very little is verified.
> 
> If you want to learn from someone, I'd go with making sure they back up what they say with results, personally. I made the mistake of not doing that for a long time and got very burned from it. Almost killed my career.
> 
> ...


I recommended Writing into the Dark because I personally got something out of it and it wasn't mentioned. I also have Rachel Aaron's book and would recommend it as well but it was already mentioned. I realize that I need to read Take Off Your Pants by Libbie Hawker but I haven't gotten around to it yet. For Love or Money sounds interesting. Will check it out later.

I'm not sure why Dean Wesley Smith's name wouldn't be mentioned in a discussion about productivity. He publishes a monthly collection called Smith's Monthly, which includes a novel. Yes, he disdains Amazon exclusivity (which I personally don't agree with--much of my success has been through KDP Select), and clashes with many about rewriting, but I find his perspective fascinating.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Because just being productive doesn't lead to readership. He's a very good example of that. You also have to write things that readers want to read.

That's why I recommend studying people who actually sell books, because they are being productive AND writing things people want. Just doing the first won't save you any frustrations.


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## S.E. Gordon (Mar 15, 2011)

> Because just being productive doesn't lead to readership. He's a very good example of that. You also have to write things that readers want to read.
> 
> That's why I recommend studying people who actually sell books, because they are being productive AND writing things people want. Just doing the first won't save you any frustrations.


Good grief! I'm just recommending a book.

Let's try this again:

For another perspective on increasing productivity, take a look at Writing into the Dark by Dean Wesley Smith. I also recommend the aforementioned books, and if you want to support yourself with writing, study the Top 10 of your favorite genre(s) + the Top 100 overall to get an idea of reader expectations and what sells.

And just in case only successful authors are allowed to recommend books here, let me put your heart at ease by telling you that I was a Kindle Unlimited All Star last month.

</snark>


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## amy_wokz (Oct 11, 2014)

Annie B said:


> Because just being productive doesn't lead to readership. He's a very good example of that. You also have to write things that readers want to read.
> 
> That's why I recommend studying people who actually sell books, because they are being productive AND writing things people want. Just doing the first won't save you any frustrations.


Double AMEN to that! And don't forget to read "reader comments" as well as check what categories they're choosing to use.


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## Dale Ivan Smith (Oct 13, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Because just being productive doesn't lead to readership. He's a very good example of that. You also have to write things that readers want to read.
> 
> That's why I recommend studying people who actually sell books, because they are being productive AND writing things people want. Just doing the first won't save you any frustrations.


THIS.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

A camel is a horse designed by committee

Sorry, just couldn't resist!


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Annie B said:


> There's good info out there from authors who are easily verified as being able to back up what they say. Lindsay Buroker's blog, Russell Blake's blog, "2k to 10k" by Rachel Aaron, "Take Off Your Pants" by Libbie Hawker, "For Love or Money" and "The Indie Author Survival Guide" from Susan Kaye Quinn... lots of good resources to start.
> 
> Personally, if you want to get more productive, I'd definitely invest the .99 in "2k to 10k" first. It's one of the best craft and productiveness books out there, imo.


...sigh...

Can't I just take a pill? Why all this hard stuff about changing old habits and forging a new way to write so I can go from 20 miles an hour to 120? It's not fair . . .

There is so much rightness and smartness on this board. You guys are killing me. 

Signed: Olde SloMo who managed a weak 700 words today but who is going to have a glass of wine with her husband and celebrate anyway.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

S.E. Gordon said:


> Good grief! I'm just recommending a book.
> 
> Let's try this again:
> 
> ...


I'm a "very successful" author and I learned a lot from Dean. In fact, I can directly credit him for changing my career when I took his genre writing class online. I'm not saying everyone who takes it will learn what I did, but I am saying he was responsible for my first bestseller back in 2013. HIM. Directly. That class. So yeah, Dean has a lot to say about craft and every single thing I learned about genre came from him. So if I had listened to people on this board who have personal issues with Dean et al, that book would've never happened.

As far as readership goes, I think ebook-only writers need to consider the print world before they draw any conclusions. Yeah, Indies see all the numbers. I check trad authors for rankings all the time. But last year I was in London for business and on the way home I wandered into one of the little stores to get a water. And my friend was there on the bestseller's shelf. I took a pic for her.  And that book tanked online. Tanked. Yet there she was on the bestseller's shelf in Heathrow.

You don't know what you don't know. Myopic vision, bind spots, and all that good stuff. 

With that said, you really have to pick and choose your craft books. I have read quite a few but I can only name two that made any difference to me - The Plot Whisperer and Story Engineering. Neither of them were about writing fast and I'm known for being fairly fast (about 600,000 published words in 2015)

People write fast when they have the story in their head before they start or have the next chapter ready while their writing the one before. People get stuck when they don't know where they're going. That's about the simplest way to put it. I think a large vocabulary helps. Lots of life experience helps. If you "write what you know" it's a lot easier than writing what you don't.


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## George Saoulidis (Feb 2, 2016)

Annie B said:


> Dean has a very interesting relationship with the truth. Sorry. They say a lot of things. Very little is verified.
> 
> If you want to learn from someone, I'd go with making sure they back up what they say with results, personally. I made the mistake of not doing that for a long time and got very burned from it. Almost killed my career.
> 
> ...


I just read 2k to 10k, and I have to say it helped me a lot. It was pretty much what I was doing, but it helped gel the concept in my mind and proven that I'm not mad or anything, someone out there is thinking the same things. It might seem I'm giving it away, but, no, buy it and study it. It boils down to:
1- Plan ahead. Doesn't need to be the whole thing, just this scene and the next.
2- Write during your most productive hours. If you are a night owl, write then. If you need to be on a recliner being fed grapes, plan for that and get yourself a slave.
3- Enthusiasm. Your story might not be as exciting as it was, and it will show. By no means do not abandon a project at 90%, but if you lose steam at 20% just let it go (EARWORM! LET IT GO, LET IT GOOOOO...)

My own advice for 3 is that your idea might not hold up for a whole novel. Trim it down to the necessary parts and publish a smaller thing. You don't have constraints with digital publishing anymore, you can make it as long or as short as it needs to be. Just don't call it a novelette, nobody knows what that is anymore.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

George Saoulidis said:


> 2- Write during your most productive hours. If you are a night owl, write then. If you need to be on a recliner being fed grapes, plan for that and get yourself a slave.


2 things:

I need to work out how to bring the recliner being fed grapes into my series.
I need a recliner.
I need a slave.
I need something to replace the grapes, since I'm allergic. Strawberries maybe.

Ok, that was 4.


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## George Saoulidis (Feb 2, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> 2 things:
> 
> I need to work out how to bring the recliner being fed grapes into my series.
> I need a recliner.
> ...


Having a clear plan of action is what makes success.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

judygoodwin said:


> I think there is a point in a writers career near the beginning where having a critique group is valuable, but I think it's something that you outgrow as you write more books. I also think there are writers who want to be "literary" and agonize over every word and treat their writing like art. That's fine for them, but I wouldn't expect them to make a living off of it, just as I wouldn't expect it from most artists who agonize over every brush stroke. The writers who want to write for a living know that they must produce a much greater quantity of writing in order to make that possible. And I personally would rather read one of Amanda's books than 99 percent of the literary stuff that's out there. I don't want to see the beauty in a word. I want to be taken on a journey through the story and characters. You don't need the perfect, beautiful word (or even words, sentences, etc.) to do that.
> 
> The artists who can make a living are the ones mass producing as well, and are producing what their market wants.
> 
> I'm not yet at the point where I can write a book a month. Part of that is the fact I write part time (I'm also a technical writer for my day job because it pays very, very well). But mentally I haven't yet gotten over that hurdle either. My writing muscles still get fatigued. I'm working on that. I am in awe of those who can churn out over 5000 words in a day. Someday, hopefully, that will be me.


Thanks Judy. Again, speaking from my own experience, the value and purpose of a critique group shifts as a person improves as a writer, too. Beginners need help with sentence structure, choosing words, perhaps even grammar and punctuation--but as time passes, the critique expands to focus more on plot and character development, on discussing character flaws and quirks and details that could be added to give the story more impact, things of that nature. If a certain scene isn't working for your readers, or a subtle point isn't coming across--you get feedback for that immediately. The key is to be in the right group for you at the point you are in at a particular point in time. One of my friends used to be in a critique group with some very, very well known writers, and while I wasn't there, I imagine they used the time to spitball plots and not line edits. Just thinking of my own work, some of the little details added through this sort of interaction has, I feel, made my prose pop and has added suspense or drama when needed. Would my story have been good enough without those changes? Undoubtedly. It's a different approach to writing; one isn't more valid than the other, it's just a matter of what you're trying to achieve.

Good luck with your writing.

Best,

Rigsby


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

I've been thinking about how to phrase this since reading the first naysayer on this thread, and I can't really think of a good way other than to be very blunt. Those of us writing a novel a month all have a variety of bad reviews complaining about a range of things, such as typos, plot problems, cliche dialogue, lack of originality and other things. I think the thing no one wants to really admit is this -- yes, I could spend half a year perfecting a book, and it would definitely be better, but truthfully, it wouldn't sell any better. Book buyers aren't nearly as choosy as some people think. Every top-selling self-published author that releases at a fast pace has books with bad reviews highlighting things that could easily be fixed if more time was taken. Don't believe me? Go read their reviews. I can either publish once a month and get 1000 sales or spend several months perfecting and get 1001 sales. 

One of these choices equals more income.

As for how to actually write that fast? Well, for me, this is my full-time job. I can write between 1000-2000 words an hour. If I spend 8 full hours a day writing, that's 8000-16000 words a day. At that pace, that's an 80k novel (my average book length) in 5-10 days.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Briteka said:


> Those of us writing a novel a month all have a variety of bad reviews complaining about a range of things, such as typos, plot problems, cliche dialogue, lack of originality and other things.


 Err, I don't. Speak for yourself I believe is the correct response here.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Briteka said:


> I've been thinking about how to phrase this since reading the first naysayer on this thread, and I can't really think of a good way other than to be very blunt. Those of us writing a novel a month all have a variety of bad reviews complaining about a range of things, such as typos, plot problems, cliche dialogue, lack of originality and other things. I think the thing no one wants to really admit is this -- yes, I could spend half a year perfecting a book, and it would definitely be better, but truthfully, it wouldn't sell any better. Book buyers aren't nearly as choosy as some people think. Every top-selling self-published author that releases at a fast pace has books with bad reviews highlighting things that could easily be fixed if more time was taken. Don't believe me? Go read their reviews. I can either publish once a month and get 1000 sales or spend several months perfecting and get 1001 sales.
> 
> One of these choices equals more income.
> 
> As for how to actually write that fast? Well, for me, this is my full-time job. I can write between 1000-2000 words an hour. If I spend 8 full hours a day writing, that's 8000-16000 words a day. At that pace, that's an 80k novel (my average book length) in 5-10 days.


I honestly only have editing issues on my first books because I had no idea who to get because I was on a shoe string budget. That had nothing to do with writing fast because I wrote much slower then. Putting an editing team together took time, but I love mine now. Im sure a typo or two still gets through, but that's life. No one really puts out a perfect book. I would put out much the same product if I did one a year or thirty a year. I don't like doing huge rewrites because I think it strips flavor. I never send anything up that I think isn't ready.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I honestly only have editing issues on my first books because I had no idea who to get because I was on a shoe string budget. That had nothing to do with writing fast because I wrote much slower then. Putting an editing team together took time, but I love mine now. Im sure a typo or two still gets through, but that's life. No one really puts out a perfect book. I would put out much the same product if I did one a year or thirty a year. I don't like doing huge rewrites because I think it strips flavor. I never send anything up that I think isn't ready.


Yes, but do you have a variety of reviews about your typos? The assumption that everyone who writes a book a month all have a variety of reviews pointing out typos is offensive. If you have the imagination and are home all day with very little else to do, a book a month is extremely easy. I am sure some of us write even more than that, without a single typo.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I honestly only have editing issues on my first books because I had no idea who to get because I was on a shoe string budget. That had nothing to do with writing fast because I wrote much slower then. Putting an editing team together took time, but I love mine now. Im sure a typo or two still gets through, but that's life. No one really puts out a perfect book. I would put out much the same product if I did one a year or thirty a year. I don't like doing huge rewrites because I think it strips flavor. I never send anything up that I think isn't ready.


Thank you, Amanda. Knowing that you have an editing team helps understand the process of writing a novel so quickly. You may not be willing to answer this, but I'd be curious to know how much authority your editors have--do you allow them to make changes directly into your manuscript, or do they simply give you suggestions for you to implement yourself? Do you explicitly limit their review to grammar, punctuation, and typos, or do they suggest additional details, pacing improvement, etc?

Thanks,

--Rigsby


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## ShariLTapscott (Sep 18, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I honestly only have editing issues on my first books because I had no idea who to get because I was on a shoe string budget. That had nothing to do with writing fast because I wrote much slower then. Putting an editing team together took time, but I love mine now. Im sure a typo or two still gets through, but that's life. No one really puts out a perfect book. I would put out much the same product if I did one a year or thirty a year. I don't like doing huge rewrites because I think it strips flavor. I never send anything up that I think isn't ready.


This is encouraging. With my first book, I didn't realize that you needed an editing team, and it's definitely my weakest (my original editor is great, but she's only one person). Now I'm working with a small group, and I feel much more confident. I don't want to do a major rewrite on the first one, because people really seem to love it, and I'm afraid it might lose that magic if I go shifting stuff around. I've changed the typos I've found and moved on.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Briteka said:


> I've been thinking about how to phrase this since reading the first naysayer on this thread, and I can't really think of a good way other than to be very blunt. Those of us writing a novel a month all have a variety of bad reviews complaining about a range of things, such as typos, plot problems, cliche dialogue, lack of originality and other things. I think the thing no one wants to really admit is this -- yes, I could spend half a year perfecting a book, and it would definitely be better, but truthfully, it wouldn't sell any better. Book buyers aren't nearly as choosy as some people think. Every top-selling self-published author that releases at a fast pace has books with bad reviews highlighting things that could easily be fixed if more time was taken. Don't believe me? Go read their reviews. I can either publish once a month and get 1000 sales or spend several months perfecting and get 1001 sales.
> 
> One of these choices equals more income.
> 
> As for how to actually write that fast? Well, for me, this is my full-time job. I can write between 1000-2000 words an hour. If I spend 8 full hours a day writing, that's 8000-16000 words a day. At that pace, that's an 80k novel (my average book length) in 5-10 days.


Thank you, Briteka. That is the sort of honest response I was hoping for, and I appreciate it. If I may follow up, when producing novels at such a pace, do you ever worry that your plots are becoming repetitive, or does your point that most readers aren't choosy hold for that, too--that most readers seek familiarity more than originality? I assume that you have a dedicated set of readers, folks who will devour all your work as soon as you release it, that have stuck with you throughout your series(s).


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Doglover said:


> Yes, but do you have a variety of reviews about your typos? The assumption that everyone who writes a book a month all have a variety of reviews pointing out typos is offensive. If you have the imagination and are home all day with very little else to do, a book a month is extremely easy. I am sure some of us write even more than that, without a single typo.


I have reviews about typos in my first few books.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I have reviews about typos in my first few books.


My first book, when I discovered kdp, had some typos. The reason was that I wrote it some 35 years ago and I only had a hard copy. I copied it to get it into the computer and having spent weeks copying it, my fingers ached and I was sick of the sight of it. I didn't check, I was so keen to get it published. I still got a four star review which pointed out the typos, so I went through and corrected it. That is the only one I have a review about typos and it was nothing to do with writing quickly, more about copy typing with no practice for years.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

One of the many nice things about indie publishing is how easy it is to go back and fix typos if they're found in earlier works. Do a quick revision pass to clean them up and upload the revised file. Any existing readers might notice and appreciate the fixes, any new readers won't even know they were there unless it's mentioned in a review or something.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Jim Johnson said:


> One of the many nice things about indie publishing is how easy it is to go back and fix typos if they're found in earlier works. Do a quick revision pass to clean them up and upload the revised file. Any existing readers might notice and appreciate the fixes, any new readers won't even know they were there unless it's mentioned in a review or something.


Thanks Jim--Obviously that's part of the calculus between ebook and print publishing--it's costlier and more time consuming to make those changes in print! (In fact, a question about revising my print version is what led me to this forum last week.) Do you only release your work electronically?


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

If not for my full time day-job I'd probably be on one every two months. Possibly more. 

My ideal scenario: 

1-2 weeks to write manuscript #1.
1 to edit.
Send to content editor. 
Drink some wine.
1-2 weeks writing manuscript #2 while waiting for content edit.
A couple of days on the return of manuscript #1 then a couple more reading on kindle. 
Make corrections on Manuscript #1 and send to copy & proofreader
1 week making my own edits on Manuscript #2 (while waiting for manuscript #1)
Send manuscript #2 for content edit
1 week with Manuscript #1 back, corrections made, final read through, and finally release. 

(I think that's eight weeks) 

then start on Manuscript #3, with manuscript #2's edits dotted throughout. 

If I get that production cycle going, that's one book every 6 weeks or so, although I doubt I'd keep it up all year. Call it 7-8 books a year at best. But I could do more if I didn't care about typos and the sort of mistakes that make me angry when reading other people's work.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

ADDavies said:


> If not for my full time day-job I'd probably be on one every two months. Possibly more.
> 
> My ideal scenario:
> 
> ...


Thanks so much!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Rigsby said:


> Thanks Jim--Obviously that's part of the calculus between ebook and print publishing--it's costlier and more time consuming to make those changes in print! (In fact, a question about revising my print version is what led me to this forum last week.) Do you only release your work electronically?


I'm releasing print versions as well, through CreateSpace. IIRC, Createspace allows you to revise up to 10% of the interior text without needing a new ISBN, so if a writer found typos in a print version, they could fix them. (And I'd say if a writer's print version has so many typos that they need to revise more than 10% of the document, I'd say that writer needs to revise their production schedule to allow another proof pass.)


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

I think one thing that people miss.. is that the more successful among us - are usually publishing constantly. So when they put out a 'book a month" - that doesn't mean they wrote and published the book in the same month. The book that was published this month - was written a while ago - they are just publishing it after it's come back from editing. 

I personally know of writers who have several book projects going at once - in various stages. One they may still be plotting, while another is in editing, and the current one their WIP. 

If any of that makes sense.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Urban Mogul said:


> I think one thing that people miss.. is that the more successful among us - are usually publishing constantly. So when they put out a 'book a month" - that doesn't mean they wrote and published the book in the same month. The book that was published this month - was written a while ago - they are just publishing it after it's come back from editing.
> 
> I personally know of writers who have several book projects going at once - in various stages. One they may still be plotting, while another is in editing, and the current one their WIP.


Very true. I wrote the first five books in my weird western series pretty much back to back over the course of three months, about 170k words total. Had to take some time off over the summer to prep for baby, but then released the first three a month apart from Oct to Dec. A lot of indies write ahead of the publication curve.


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## CarmenShea (Jan 18, 2016)

Jim Johnson said:


> Some folks want to grind up those bones and snort the dust, I guess.


Loving this so much XD just about died laughing.

And great thread going on here, guys. I'm currently classed as a backpacker so don't always get the time to just sit and write but you guys have some pretty helpful info on here and I realise if I really want to make a go of things then it is a case of making that time! I'll be employing some of these tips over my last month in New Zealand and hopefully get my second novel completely drafted before I head over to Australia 

Sent from my GT-I9192 using Tapatalk


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

Doglover said:


> Yes, but do you have a variety of reviews about your typos? The assumption that everyone who writes a book a month all have a variety of reviews pointing out typos is offensive. If you have the imagination and are home all day with very little else to do, a book a month is extremely easy. I am sure some of us write even more than that, without a single typo.


I wouldn't say "without a single typo". I have a great editor but I still get typos. But I do agree. If someone complains about my plot or my characters, they just don't like what I'm writing and it has nothing do do with speed. If someone doesn't like what you write - you say the F-word to much, you have too much sex, you have too little sex, you write historicals, you have a baby in the story, you write vampires, it's got too many italics - none of this matters. These opinions DO NOT matter. Spending time thinking about this stuff is a waste. Write what you like to write, write it as best you can, get the best editing you can afford, and do it all with speed that makes sense.

So fast certainly does not equal poor quality. Nothing automatically equals poor quality. Every writer is different. My bestselling book was written in 42 days. My second best in 18 days. Both full length books (80K+). Both sold over 100,000 copies.

With that said, the BEST (very best) way to make money as a writer is to publish the best work you can, as fast as you can. Backlist is everything between releases. Being a successful author is a strategy and publishing schedule is part of that strategy.


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## ShariLTapscott (Sep 18, 2015)

PeanutButterCracker said:


> I wouldn't say "without a single typo". I have a great editor but I still get typos. But I do agree. If someone complains about my plot or my characters, they just don't like what I'm writing and it has nothing do do with speed. If someone doesn't like what you write - you say the F-word to much, you have too much sex, you have too little sex, you write historicals, you have a baby in the story, you write vampires, it's got too many italics - none of this matters. These opinions DO NOT matter. Spending time thinking about this stuff is a waste. Write what you like to write, write it as best you can, get the best editing you can afford, and do it all with speed that makes sense.
> 
> So fast certainly does not equal poor quality. Nothing automatically equals poor quality. Every writer is different. My bestselling book was written in 42 days. My second best in 18 days. Both full length books (80K+). Both sold over 100,000 copies.
> 
> With that said, the BEST (very best) way to make money as a writer is to publish the best work you can, as fast as you can. Backlist is everything between releases. Being a successful author is a strategy and publishing schedule is part of that strategy.


This is so awesome. I'm thinking of printing it and hanging it in front of my computer!


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Urban Mogul said:


> I think one thing that people miss.. is that the more successful among us - are usually publishing constantly. So when they put out a 'book a month" - that doesn't mean they wrote and published the book in the same month. The book that was published this month - was written a while ago - they are just publishing it after it's come back from editing.
> 
> I personally know of writers who have several book projects going at once - in various stages. One they may still be plotting, while another is in editing, and the current one their WIP.
> 
> If any of that makes sense.


Thanks. That's one of the obvious differences between the two methods. I think the people who write slowly generally work on one project at a time until it is out the door, especially if they are going the traditional route with an agent and established publisher. The downside is that there's a tendency to feel lost and unmotivated while you are waiting for your agent to try to sell your previous work--you can't be sure, for example, whether to move ahead with a sequel until you know the previous one will be picked up. That branches into the whole traditional-vs-indy debate notwithstanding the decision whether to focus on the ebook audience.

For each individual project, how long would you say it takes from start to finish, including all the third-party editing?

In comparison, my process takes about two-and-a-half years--a year, more or less, to complete the manuscript, a year to workshop it, and six months to make final edits/formatting/produce the cover/create and distribute a print copy. There can be time saved between projects by some overlapping, so as soon as you finish workshopping one project you can begin critiquing the next--so there's no incentive to complete a project in less time than it will take to workshop the previous one, because they will get backed up, if that makes sense.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I was thinking about this last night. I work on one book at a time, always. For ME (I am not saying for everybody), if I were to write shorter, simpler books that would take me a month to write and edit (which I could do--I currently write 45K publishable words per month. It's just that I write long books), they wouldn't have the depth of character that appears to be why I sell well. It's about thinking how my characters are feeling, putting myself in their place, and that takes time. Time to think them up and get them set in my head (I do outline, just that it's in my head, not on paper. Takes me about a week to figure out the story and the characters and their backstory and get them talking. I read Libbie's excellent "Take Off Your Pants" book and realized that I do all the things, it's just that I do them in my head and without thinking of it as "outlining.") Then it's not about writing "what happens" so much as it is about being in their skins, which informs "what happens" even though I have a number of scenes set before I start writing and know the story arc. I typically write 2.5K-10K words/day while doing that. Most often about 3.5K/day, once I'm well into the book. 

I do work 7 days a week and take very, very few days off, though there's always time when I'm not writing between books. Recently, I finished writing a book on Christmas Eve, finished editing and put it up on New Year's Eve, and started writing the new book on Jan. 14. So--two weeks between. That's pretty normal. One week for the old book to leave my head, one week for the new one to arrive. And then six weeks (for a 100K book) to write it, and 1-2 weeks to edit it. I'm on book 18, and that timeline has been about the same since book 1, so that seems to be my process. 

It's always seemed to me that the right process is the one that works for you. Nothing wrong with trying different techniques to be more productive or whatever, but it also depends on your goals. My goal is to write the kind of book that satisfies me--within the bounds of seeing which type of book resonates best with my audience; i.e., sells best! Feeling great about what I've written is very important to me, so I stick with the process that lets me do that. 

Maybe I could make more money doing it a different way and writing a different kind of book--but I might also make less. I've certainly been surprised that writing has been as lucrative for me as it has, given that I've been winging it from the beginning. I made almost 250K my first full year, and almost twice that in Year 2, publishing about every three months. It's certainly possible to sell very well without going so fast, although it does seem that most of the HUGE indie authors in romance go extremely fast. I may never make it to the stratosphere doing it my way, though. That's certainly possible. But heck, I'm on Book 18 now, which still amazes me, and I'm really liking this book! And I want to enjoy writing it. I'm actually trying to give myself time now, not to feel rushed. To enjoy it the way I did at the start. The time it takes is almost exactly the same, oddly enough, but the enjoyment is so much more if I focus on that rather than worrying about how long it's taking and how much faster some people go. 

In other words--lalalalala. But seriously. I struggle, as many authors do, with depression and anxiety. Those struggles actually help me write better books, but they also mean I have to guard my mental health. If you find you naturally go very fast and the rest of your life is fine, then--great. If you're putting way too much pressure on yourself, are constantly comparing your speed and your stats to other people's, and your physical or mental health, or your relationships, are suffering from it--maybe stop and think. 

That was a book in itself. Turning the internet off now and going back to the book!


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## S.E. Gordon (Mar 15, 2011)

> I was thinking about this last night. I work on one book at a time, always. For ME (I am not saying for everybody), if I were to write shorter, simpler books that would take me a month to write and edit (which I could do--I currently write 45K publishable words per month. It's just that I write long books), they wouldn't have the depth of character that appears to be why I sell well. It's about thinking how my characters are feeling, putting myself in their place, and that takes time. Time to think them up and get them set in my head (I do outline, just that it's in my head, not on paper. Takes me about a week to figure out the story and the characters and their backstory and get them talking. I read Libbie's excellent "Take Off Your Pants" book and realized that I do all the things, it's just that I do them in my head and without thinking of it as "outlining.") Then it's not about writing "what happens" so much as it is about being in their skins, which informs "what happens" even though I have a number of scenes set before I start writing and know the story arc. I typically write 2.5K-10K words/day while doing that. Most often about 3.5K/day, once I'm well into the book.
> 
> I do work 7 days a week and take very, very few days off, though there's always time when I'm not writing between books. Recently, I finished writing a book on Christmas Eve, finished editing and put it up on New Year's Eve, and started writing the new book on Jan. 14. So--two weeks between. That's pretty normal. One week for the old book to leave my head, one week for the new one to arrive. And then six weeks (for a 100K book) to write it, and 1-2 weeks to edit it. I'm on book 18, and that timeline has been about the same since book 1, so that seems to be my process.
> 
> ...


Awesome post! Enjoying what you're writing, i.e. having fun, can be both meaningful and (financially) rewarding.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I write about 10k publishable words a week between outlining, drafting, and revision.

To Briteka's point, I am sure I could spend less time revising and get my 80k word books out every 1.5 months rather than every 2 months. Or I could write shorter books and tighten my schedule a bit to get a 50k word book out every month.

But why? If I'm selling well, I don't need the extra boost of books out a little faster. If I'm selling poorly, then what does it matter if I have an extra book out there?

I enjoy the revision process and how deeply I can get into the story, characters, and scenes. When I get to speed up, I feel anxious and I worry that my books won't meet my standards. Other people can get it right the first time and they barely need to revise, but that's not my process.


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## TheLemontree (Sep 12, 2015)

Rosalind, I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your posts. They're always such good sense. 

Sent from my GT-S7390 using Tapatalk


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

I wouldn't worry too much about a small amount of typos. Ever single book I have read has had at leats one, and guess what if I can find one that means someone else will find more.

The goal is to get as many of them as you can, I use a separate editor and proofreader, and sometimes some slip through.I make a list if I find any or if anyone contacts me and I update as necessary.  It's not the end of the world and I wouldn't ever put anything out without having a minimum of two editors checking it for me.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

I'm gradually moving up my production speed. I wrote 150k words in 2014, then 300k words last year. I wrote 35k in January this year - and I'm at over 28k so far for February, and we're not halfway through.

People like Amanda are an ongoing inspiration for me. I aspire to her level of productivity - both in terms of her weekly word counts and in terms of the excellence of her books.

Folks, the myth that writing more words per day/week/month results in lower quality writing is just that. It's a fairy tale. The more hours you spend spinning new stories, the more words you end up with at the close of the day.

If anything, I've noticed that (for me) the more I write per week, the faster my skill improves, the cleaner my first drafts become, and the less editing they require.

The trick seems to me to be finding ways to sit down and do the work. Which is challenging. It's easy to be distracted. When writers are being told that two books a year is a LOT, then writing more than a thousand words a day makes you prolific. Why work more hours? Also, there's pushback from other *writers* to not go so fast (because if you go fast, you can't really be any good).

My perfect setup, once I get up to speed and am really cruising full time, will be something like:
Monday: Day off with my kids. Edit in the evening.
Tuesday - Friday: 10-15k words per day.
Saturday and Sunday: Outline a new book and edit.

Or something close to that. About a book a week - maybe a book every two weeks for longer works.
I'm not there yet. This year, I'm trying for 600,000 words while still working full time at the day job.


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

This thread hangs around like the bad air from my two old dogs..it taunts me every few days so I give up, I admit it. I am in awe of those of you who can do this. There I said it.


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

MKK said:


> This thread hangs around like the bad air from my two old dogs..it taunts me every few days so I give up, I admit it. I am in awe of those of you who can do this. There I said it.


Come sit by me. I can't shovel novels out either.


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

KeraEmory said:


> Come sit by me. I can't shovel novels out either.


Shovel?

Heck...I'd be thrilled with spoonful...a measley 500 words that didn't read like the writing of a five-year old. I am seriously in awe. You guys rock.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

"I do one thing at a time, I do it very well, and then I move on" - Charles Emerson Winchester III MASH 4077


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Doglover said:


> "I do one thing at a time, I do it very well, and then I move on" - Charles Emerson Winchester III MASH 4077


"Full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes." - Admiral Farragut.

"I love it when a plan comes together." - Colonel Hannibal Smith, A-Team.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

MKK said:


> Shovel?
> 
> Heck...I'd be thrilled with spoonful...a measley 500 words that didn't read like the writing of a five-year old. I am seriously in awe. You guys rock.


I really think the point that is being missed here is that there is nothing wonderful about writing a book a month if that is how you work and the same goes for people who take longer. It depends on how the imagination is flowing, how the words are flowing and basically what else do you have to do in your life? I get bored stiff if I don't have a book to write. When I finish a book I itch to get on with the next one, since the first one has probably given me loads of new ideas, but the first one needs to be proofread and edited first. So I try to distract my mind with a bit of tv, try to read other people's books, all sorts, but it never works.

Others don't work like that. They might have jobs, young children, horses, or they might simply not want to write most of the day. Nothing wrong there either.

What is wrong is when somebody thinks the longer something takes the higher the quality. What is also wrong is people who assume you must have loads of typing errors if you can get a book out faster than they can.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> "Full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes." - Admiral Farragut.
> 
> "I love it when a plan comes together." - Colonel Hannibal Smith, A-Team.


You sneaked that one in when I wasn't looking. Another great quote from another great show.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Doglover said:


> "I do one thing at a time, I do it very well, and then I move on" - Charles Emerson Winchester III MASH 4077





TimothyEllis said:


> "Full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes." - Admiral Farragut.
> 
> "I love it when a plan comes together." - Colonel Hannibal Smith, A-Team.





Doglover said:


> You sneaked that one in when I wasn't looking. Another great quote from another great show.


All 3 fit for different writing styles too.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:
 

> All 3 fit for different writing styles too.


I would say George Peppard (Hannibal Smith) was just fit! 

How do you get multiple quotes? I've never figured it out.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Doglover said:


> How do you get multiple quotes? I've never figured it out.


If you scroll down from the typing box, on the rigt side of each persons post, you see "Insert Quote". Position the curser where you want the quote, and click the Insert on the post you want, then edit as normal.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> If you scroll down from the typing box, on the rigt side of each persons post, you see "Insert Quote". Position the curser where you want the quote, and click the Insert on the post you want, then edit as normal.


But I believe you have to quote someone first before the insert quote appears besides the names to add additional quotes.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

mach 5 said:


> But I believe you have to quote someone first before the insert quote appears besides the names to add additional quotes.


No, works the same hitting the reply button.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> No, works the same hitting the reply button.





mach 5 said:


> But I believe you have to quote someone first before the insert quote appears besides the names to add additional quotes.


Got it! How exciting!


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

mach 5 said:


> But I believe you have to quote someone first before the insert quote appears besides the names to add additional quotes.


Ok, hit reply, as Timothy said, then scroll down and you will find every post on the thread. Made my day!


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Doglover said:


> Ok, hit reply, as Timothy said, then scroll down and you will find every post on the thread. Made my day!


Not all of them. I think it goes back several pages. But on long threads, it only goes so far for quoting.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> Not all of them. I think it goes back several pages. But on long threads, it only goes so far for quoting.


Still better than I had before, so thanks.


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> Not all of them. I think it goes back several pages. But on long threads, it only goes so far for quoting.


If you want to quote something from 1000 pages ago, go to that post and hit the "quote" link in the top right corner of _that post_.


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

Doglover said:


> What is wrong is when somebody thinks the longer something takes the higher the quality.


Absolutely.

And that in an essence, is my point. Time available, personal situation aside, etc. The ability to produce is a skill (or maybe even an innate ability). And I have tremendous respect for those who can do it-however, they do it. My own hope/goal is that a year from now I can look back and see a noticeable improvement in my own writing.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

MKK said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> And that in an essence, is my point. Time available, personal situation aside, etc. The ability to produce is a skill (or maybe even an innate ability). And I have tremendous respect for those who can do it-however, they do it. My own hope/goal is that a year from now I can look back and see a noticeable improvement in my own writing.


Agreed, and on the flip side of that, I hope I can look back and see a noticeable improvement on my speed


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

Evenstar said:


> Agreed, and on the flip side of that, I hope I can look back and see a noticeable improvement on my speed


14 books...you aren't doing too badly


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm moving the opposite direction this year, trying to slow down a little. I finished six novels in 2014 and five last year. I'm feeling a little burned out and losing the joy of creation. All that production really helped, of course. I had my best financial year in 2015 by far.

But at the end of the day, I was doing all right before and enjoying the work more, too. I'm not saying I'm going down to one novel a year, but I'm considering more like three or four books in 2016, allowing myself more breathers between projects.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Doglover said:


> What is wrong is when somebody thinks the longer something takes the higher the quality. What is also wrong is people who assume you must have loads of typing errors if you can get a book out faster than they can.


In some cases, this might actually be true. I write in English as a second language. To me, rushing really means lower quality of writing.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

C. Rysalis said:


> In some cases, this might actually be true. I write in English as a second language. To me, rushing really means lower quality of writing.


I only know english and bad english. And everyone should know, you have to rush bad english.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Doglover said:


> I really think the point that is being missed here is that there is nothing wonderful about writing a book a month if that is how you work and the same goes for people who take longer. It depends on how the imagination is flowing, how the words are flowing and basically what else do you have to do in your life? I get bored stiff if I don't have a book to write. When I finish a book I itch to get on with the next one, since the first one has probably given me loads of new ideas, but the first one needs to be proofread and edited first. So I try to distract my mind with a bit of tv, try to read other people's books, all sorts, but it never works.
> 
> Others don't work like that. They might have jobs, young children, horses, or they might simply not want to write most of the day. Nothing wrong there either.
> 
> What is wrong is when somebody thinks the longer something takes the higher the quality. What is also wrong is people who assume you must have loads of typing errors if you can get a book out faster than they can.


Hello Doglover,

Your first point is a good one. I agree.

As to your last two sentences--I don't know whether they were directed to me, but I'll simply add that it was enlightening that many of you eventually disclosed that you use multiple editors simultaneously specifically to address that point. That, I think, must be part of the reply if you [I don't mean you specifically, Doglover--I mean "you" in the general sense] want to be honest about your process. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using editors and no one, certainly not me, would judge you on it. Essentially you are farming out the grunt work to improve the final product. With regard to the "quality" argument that several of you mentioned, Twain once wrote, "I don't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead," I think that's true. There are no complete short-cuts, just trade-offs. There is no question that one can't write as well in a month that they could in a year. The question is when to pull the plug and move on, to decide when you've edited enough, and that's an individual decision. Some people enjoy the editing process and to them, it is worth taking longer to finish for the internal satisfaction of doing the very best they can. Maybe the fundamental question is: are you writing to meet your audience's standards, or your own? Because they may be quite different.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful replies. I'm thrilled this evolved into a deep discussion, and I'm finding it quite useful and thought-provoking.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rigsby said:


> There is no question that one can't write as well in a month that they could in a year.


 Isn't there? Have you read any of the posts on this thread? I strongly disagree with that statement; one can easily write as well in a month as one can in a year or any other length of time that is needed. You just don't want to concede that we are not all like you.

As to editors,proofreaders, cover designers etc, most writers do use these people. Nothing wrong with that. But you should also know that a lot of us don't use any of those people. As for Mark Twain, I doubt very much whether he mixed his tenses as you have quoted here.


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

This concept of whether one can produce the _same_ quality in a short amount of time as a long amount of time makes me thinking of cooking.

If I follow one of Julia Child's recipes (and I'm talking about real-world experiences here), such as her bouef bourguignon, which is long and fiddly and requires special, individual prep and attention paid to each ingredient, I most definitely end up with a more complex, delicious and satisfying end product than if I go to Food Network and try out the first 'quick and easy beef stew' recipe I find.

Granted, lots of people don't care about the difference. That doesn't mean the difference doesn't exist.

Just my thoughts.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

KeraEmory said:


> This concept of whether one can produce the _same_ quality in a short amount of time as a long amount of time makes me thinking of cooking.
> 
> If I follow one of Julia Child's recipes (and I'm talking about real-world experiences here), such as her bouef bourguignon, which is long and fiddly and requires special, individual prep and attention paid to each ingredient, I most definitely end up with a more complex, delicious and satisfying end product than if I go to Food Network and try out the first 'quick and easy beef stew' recipe I find.
> 
> ...


And your point is? I see no comparison between recipes for food and writing a novel. Ever made a steak and kidney pudding, from scratch and in a saucepan? It will take, literally, all day. Does it taste any different to the same pudding cooked in a pressure cooker for an hour? Yes it does. Some dishes take longer than others to cook; that is a fact no matter who is cooking them. How fast different authors can produce a decent novel is not the same thing at all.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Doglover said:


> Isn't there? Have you read any of the posts on this thread? I strongly disagree with that statement; one can easily write as well in a month as one can in a year or any other length of time that is needed. You just don't want to concede that we are not all like you.
> 
> As to editors,proofreaders, cover designers etc, most writers do use these people. Nothing wrong with that. But you should also know that a lot of us don't use any of those people. As for Mark Twain, I doubt very much whether he mixed his tenses as you have quoted here.


He's been messing with everyone this entire time. There's no sense in engaging.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> He's been messing with everyone this entire time. There's no sense in engaging.


I know you're right, but I never could keep my trap shut!


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## amy_wokz (Oct 11, 2014)

Doglover said:


> I really think the point that is being missed here is that there is nothing wonderful about writing a book a month if that is how you work and the same goes for people who take longer. It depends on how the imagination is flowing, how the words are flowing and basically what else do you have to do in your life? I get bored stiff if I don't have a book to write. When I finish a book I itch to get on with the next one, since the first one has probably given me loads of new ideas, but the first one needs to be proofread and edited first. So I try to distract my mind with a bit of tv, try to read other people's books, all sorts, but it never works.
> 
> Others don't work like that. They might have jobs, young children, horses, or they might simply not want to write most of the day. Nothing wrong there either.
> 
> What is wrong is when somebody thinks the longer something takes the higher the quality. What is also wrong is people who assume you must have loads of typing errors if you can get a book out faster than they can.


I'm for writing in the FUN ZONE, be it slow, fast, or half-fast.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> He's been messing with everyone this entire time. There's no sense in engaging.


There is too much pain and death in the world to spend time and energy "messing with" people you don't know over the internet. If you don't realize that, I envy you.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Doglover said:


> Isn't there? Have you read any of the posts on this thread? I strongly disagree with that statement; one can easily write as well in a month as one can in a year or any other length of time that is needed. You just don't want to concede that we are not all like you.
> 
> As to editors,proofreaders, cover designers etc, most writers do use these people. Nothing wrong with that. But you should also know that a lot of us don't use any of those people. As for Mark Twain, I doubt very much whether he mixed his tenses as you have quoted here.


That is the way the quote has been reported, Doglover. A simple Google search with confirm that. I don't know the source, so I am unable to check personally.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rigsby said:


> That is the way the quote has been reported, Doglover. A simple Google search with confirm that. I don't know the source, so I am unable to check personally.


What quote? You only have to read this forum to see what rubbish is posted on the internet about self publishing. You didn't quote anything, you stated it as fact and it is rubbish.


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## Rigsby (Feb 8, 2016)

Doglover said:


> What quote? You only have to read this forum to see what rubbish is posted on the internet about self publishing. You didn't quote anything, you stated it as fact and it is rubbish.


You were referring to the Mark Twain quote I reproduced above. And yes, it has quote marks around it, so it is a quote.

I am getting the sense you want me to leave, so I will. For the rest of you, thanks for the information you've provided, and have a good weekend.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Rigsby said:


> You were referring to the Mark Twain quote I reproduced above. And yes, it has quote marks around it, so it is a quote.
> 
> I am getting the sense you want me to leave, so I will. For the rest of you, thanks for the information you've provided, and have a good weekend.


I wasn't talking about Mark Twain, I was talking about you saying there is no question etc. I don't care what Google says, I doubt Twain mixed his tenses like that.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> He's been messing with everyone this entire time. There's no sense in engaging.


I said it before, he is fishing. Whether for an article, or for a thesis, or a marketing research: who cares. But he clearly is fishing for information, and I don't for one second believe it is due his own novel writing efforts. I doubt there are any.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

KeraEmory said:


> This concept of whether one can produce the _same_ quality in a short amount of time as a long amount of time makes me thinking of cooking.


A couple of masterful classics were written in as little as one or two days. Others took 20 years to write. Every author is different, every book is different, and each takes as long as it takes.

That solid genre fiction can be written by a rate of two books per month was demonstrated in the past already by nowadays renowned authors who wrote under multiple pen names, or even the same ones. There's no reason why only traditional authors should be able to do so. I would be too happy to write as well as Isaac Asimov (506 books), Alexandre Dumas (277 books) or Georges Simenon (over 500 books). While you may think of Barbara Cartland what you will, her over 700 books still sell, as do the books by Nora Roberts (200+), so they both work well within their respective genres and can't be anything to sneer at. Harper Lee wrote just two books in her life, but one of them is the ultimate American novel.

Neither approach is better than the other.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Rigsby said:


> You were referring to the Mark Twain quote I reproduced above. And yes, it has quote marks around it, so it is a quote.
> 
> I am getting the sense you want me to leave, so I will. For the rest of you, thanks for the information you've provided, and have a good weekend.


No such quote. Internet troll.

Even if Twain HAD said something like that... Don't forget that Hemingway went on the record as saying "Old Man and the Sea" took him decades to write. He actually completed the work (a short novel, or novella) in a couple of weeks.

We writers find ourselves in a strange art.

In no other art is the artist told that practicing her craft will make her worse. The singer is encouraged to practice. The actor extorted to rehearse. No one questions that the painter who works from dawn until dusk every day will improve faster than the person who paints a few hours a week.

Only in writing are we encouraged to pen a few words a day. Two novels a year is considered prolific. Write twelve a year and people begin wondering if you're actually writing them all.

But the truth is that writing is no different from any other art. We improve by doing. By practicing the putting of new words together in sentences, and placing them on the page or screen. The only limits are those of our own stamina, our will to continue, and the hours available to us in a day.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

KeraEmory said:


> This concept of whether one can produce the _same_ quality in a short amount of time as a long amount of time makes me thinking of cooking.
> 
> If I follow one of Julia Child's recipes (and I'm talking about real-world experiences here), such as her bouef bourguignon, which is long and fiddly and requires special, individual prep and attention paid to each ingredient, I most definitely end up with a more complex, delicious and satisfying end product than if I go to Food Network and try out the first 'quick and easy beef stew' recipe I find.
> 
> ...


My husband spent three years in college in Paris getting a "classical" training as a chef, has been a head chef for fifteen years including in a Michelin restaurant, and obviously makes an amazing beef bourguignon. He's a professional, he's fast and slick at what he does with zero loss of quality, and so it doesn't take him nearly as long as it might take you. We could argue that writing is the same and a slick professional can simply do it faster but still just as well


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Rigsby said:


> There is too much pain and death in the world to spend time and energy "messing with" people you don't know over the internet. If you don't realize that, I envy you.


Knowing something doesn't make it easier to quit a toxic habit. If it did, no one would smoke or eat fast food.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Thanks for the smile, Crystal.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> Knowing something doesn't make it easier to quit a toxic habit. If it did, no one would smoke or eat fast food.


This forum rules  Crystal wins the thread


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## Lady TL Jennings (Dec 8, 2011)

Evenstar said:


> This forum rules  Crystal wins the thread


Hear, hear!


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> My husband spent three years in college in Paris getting a "classical" training as a chef, has been a head chef for fifteen years including in a Michelin restaurant, and obviously makes an amazing beef bourguignon. He's a professional, he's fast and slick at what he does with zero loss of quality, and so it doesn't take him nearly as long as it might take you. We could argue that writing is the same and a slick professional can simply do it faster but still just as well


Thank you!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Locking while we review . . . there have been reports . . . . and just quickly reviewing the last page or so of posts, there have definitely been some folks getting a bit more wound up than perhaps the discussion requires . . . . and it also looks like the topic has been pretty thoroughly covered.


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