# Heroes behaving badly



## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

Another thread here (the "am I picky" one) discusses MCs behaving badly: the unfortunate habit of (mostly) heroines to do foolish, foolish things like dashing into their houses, even though the door is wide open and a serial killer is on the loose. At that point, some readers throw the book down (or lay the Kindle down gently, since Kindles don't grow on trees), having lost all respect for the heroine. The assumption is that this happy scenario happens mostly in "cozies" written by female authors. I don't know about that, but there's one thing that MCs do in mysteries written (mostly?) by men that bugs the Hell out of me:

*  Sex without a condom. With no consequences. *​
My question is: why is one thing (dashing into that building) seen as reckless, just-another-dumb-female behavior, while the other (dashing into quite something else ) is portrayed as manly, stud-muffin-ness?


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

Ok Lindy, let's pretend for a moment that this thread isn't about me. But since you brought it up, every time I'm chasing a serial killer through burning buildings while police helicopters hover around with spotlights and I see a beautiful woman, the last thing I'm thinking about is animated gifs, ok?

It takes two to _tangle_


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## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

You are right, John, and I did mean to mention it... but got so excited that I pressed post twenty times in quick succession:

So, dear sex objects/love interests of all sexes and genres: condoms are your responsibility, too. 

I know you're not bad, you're just written that way. Even so, stop all the bouncing and dig into that purse/wallet/secret compartment under your... Or have a good reason not to! (Like you're dead and your girlfriend's already pregnant, anyway.)


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

FWIW, in general, I don't need a play-by-play anyway for romantic scenes.  So I don't need any particular mention of condom usage.  And, unless you are doing play-by-play, it's kind of jarring for it to be mentioned.  In my opinion, anyway.

Of course, in a book where the point is that the characters keep jumping in bed with each other. . . . I guess if they're going to exhibit some minimal sense of responsibility, they should use condoms.  But I don't think the fact of it NOT being specifically mentioned should be read as condoning NOT using them.  At least I wouldn't read it that way.  OTOH, those aren't the sort of books I enjoy so I don't really read them at all.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

I'm guessing the people interested in reading detailed sex scenes are not that interested in reading about safe sex....call it escapism. 

(Kinda like telling Lessa she should really be wearing a seatbelt on that dragon, and maybe install an airbag....it's fantasy!)


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Chad Winters said:


> I'm guessing the people interested in reading detailed sex scenes are not that interested in reading about safe sex....call it escapism.
> 
> (Kinda like telling Lessa she should really be wearing a seatbelt on that dragon, and maybe install an airbag....it's fantasy!)


yeah. . . .and how come they never put seatbelts on the _Enterprise_?


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## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

Or at least personal force fields.

Hey, that would work for condoms, too, right?


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Lindy Moone said:


> Or at least personal force fields.
> 
> Hey, that would work for condoms, too, right?


oh sure...until someone reverses the polarity...that's not pretty!


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> yeah. . . .and how come they never put seatbelts on the _Enterprise_?


or circuit breakers

"Ok 5 people died this year alone when this console short-circuits after we get hit, maybe we should put in a circuit breaker or something"


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## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

Reversed polarity? What would Scotty say?


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## Jack Zavada (Aug 21, 2013)

Lindy,

Far too much fiction is about stupid behavior.  Whether it's a female MC getting herself into deeper and deeper trouble because of her moronic curiosity or a male MC acting equally as dense with macho bravado, we find little serious thinking from the writers of such dreck.

Let's face it.  It takes the exercise of some brain cells to get the MC into peril through outside circumstances and out of that trouble through their own wit.  That's what makes for entertaining fiction.

As for your trailer scrolling through your post, the CDC says that 40.7 percent of births today are to unmarried mothers. I'll bet it's even higher than that.

Life imitating art or art imitating life?  

Jack


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Lack of condom use in contemporary set books writte after approx. 1985 bothers me as well. Historicals and period fiction usually don't mention condoms for obvious reasons (though some do). And I don't mind lack of condom use in futuristic or fantasy settings, because I can assume that those societies have alternative methods of preventing STD transmission and unplanned pregnancies. Though I still appreciate it, if the author at least mentions those alternatives.

But for contemporary realistic works set and written after approx. 1985, condom use should be de rigeur in sex scenes between people who are not committed long term couples. Yet there still are plenty of contemporary romances, which don't mention condoms at all. I guess it's because many contemporary romances hinge on surprise pregnancy plots, but you can show your characters behaving like responsible adults and still have a surprise pregnancy plot, e.g. due to a broken condom. Particularly bad are those romances, where the heroine informs the hero that she is on the pill (usually for menstrual cramps or acne, because we cannot have romance heroines who actually enjoy sex) and the couple still doesn't use a condom. The pill is good for preventing pregnancies, but it doesn't prevent STDs at all. Geez, people, didn't you pay attention in sex education class? 

A really bad example is _Every Breath You Take_, a not very suspenseful romantic suspense novel by Judith McNaught. There is a convoluted explanation why the heroine's birth control pills fail (cancelled out by other medication she is prescribed by a Doctor who only speaks French, so she doesn't understand his warnings - too bad that part of the book takes place in the Dutch Antilles, where people speak Dutch), so we can have a surprise pregnancy. However, the heroine still jumps into bed with a guy she only just met, a guy who has a reputation as a playboy at that, and none of them even considers using a condom. Arrgh!


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I don't care about mentioning condoms in contempo books.  I just don't care. I am an adult and I don't need my fiction to be a teaching tool. Its fiction. I just don't care. They use them fine. If not fine. Maybe it doesn't need to be mentioned anymore. If a woman uses some sponge, or a whatever its called, sorry its late and I am tired, I don't need to have it spelled out. I don't need to have every person in every fiction novel I read do a STD test before getting it on. Nobody asks a serial killer if they are qualified to murder.  

I guess that is just me. But I read fiction for it being fiction.  

I read a lot of romances and I don't want it to be a sex education. I already had those.  . I just want to be entertained. 
I mean nobody expects a horror novel to be educational. OMG someone get murdered in a horrific way in a thriller.  . OMG there is no condom.  . 
Yeah, just don't care either way.  

And I know pirates weren't sexy beast either, but yet I enjoy reading about them.  . Fantasy, fiction. 

Heroes can be bad boys. Heroines can be bad girls. Just entertain me.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Atunah said:


> I mean nobody expects a horror novel to be educational. OMG someone get murdered in a horrific way in a thriller. . OMG there is no condom. .
> Yeah, just don't care either way.


Yeah, they really should wear latex gloves if all that blood is going to be spraying around!


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

I think I have to chime in the same side of the conversation as Atunah.  When reading a sex scene - whether in a romance or not - I'm not particularly bothered if there is an included discussion on condom usage or not.  I don't need it included as a public service announcement to educate me on responsible sexuality but I certainly don't mind if it's there.  Proper condom usage doesn't detract from overall erotic content but it isn't necessary.

If the sex isn't graphic, then any mention of condom usage or other birth control would be out of place.  Although I do remember one science fiction book with a quick, very humorous first person discussion by a human male around the difficulty in having sex with an alien when hips, etc. aren't necessarily designed in the two species for such activities...  The sex itself wasn't graphic by any means and would have detracted from the scene itself and then a side discussion of STD transmission would have been flat out wrong ....


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## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

I guess this thread could have been less about characters not using condoms (which, let's face it, happens all the time in real life). I meant to question why some "typical" behaviors of characters in books are left unquestioned (or ignored) by readers, while other behaviors are not. *What does a character do that makes you lose respect/admiration for him or for the author?* The condom issue is just one example of that. It sets up a "Chekhov's gun on the mantlepiece" situation, doesn't it? And often, that gun never goes off. And then I lose respect for the writer -- just a bit.

Here's what I mean: 
In lots of mysteries, the MC is a detective (male or female) -- a meticulously honest, stickler-for-the-rules type with a ongoing "internal dialog" about everything in his/her personal and professional life. Then there's the sex scene, blow-by-blow (so to speak), every which way --without a condom.

Fine, they didn't use one. (Or two!) It happens. But then there's no mention of it in the internal dialog, after the (f)act. Wouldn't you expect the meticulous detective to worry about that, just a bit? And if he/she doesn't worry... does that take the shine off the detective, for you? Does it make you lose trust with the author... because that gun never went off?

(So to speak.)


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Lindy Moone said:


> Fine, they didn't use one. (Or two!) It happens. But then there's no mention of it in the internal dialog, after the (f)act. Wouldn't you expect the meticulous detective to worry about that, just a bit? And if he/she doesn't worry... does that take the shine off the detective, for you? Does it make you lose trust with the author... because that gun never went off?
> 
> (So to speak.)


Honestly, no.

If it's a detective novel, the point of the story is solving the mystery -- and the thought process in coming around to that. It's true mundane, everyday activities, may trigger certain directions of thought. But I don't expect the intimate details of the detectives love life to contribute to that at all. Except maybe in the 'afterglow' period where s/he's relaxed and a twist that hadn't come to mind before occurs to him/her. I would liken a mention of a condom in this situation as akin to a very specific description of someone trimming their nose hair or cleaning out ear wax. Yeah, we get that people do that. . . . I don't need described HOW.

I don't see it as either _responsible_ nor _irresponsible_ to specifically mention a condom or any other sort of birth control. I. Don't. Care.

And, frankly, if it was meant to be a fairly sexy book and there were _constant_ mentions, especially if accompanied about reminders to each other about Aids or STD's, it would totally turn me OFF the book.

And I think it's highly unlikely that any real person decides to use condoms, or not, because they've read books where the people always did (or didn't).


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Speaking as to romance only - the very fact we call the MCs hero and heroine and are interested in their love story to me means they can't be people I despise or for that matter who irritate or annoy. If the supposed conflict is merely that she's a nasty, sharp-tongued witch or he's an alpha jerk or either one is stupid or helpless, I'm out of that book the moment that becomes clear. Yes, characters need to grow, but if they start from a place that makes believing they're ever going to approach being decent human beings impossible, no one can sell me the story. I stopped reading romance for a long time during the "hero" as rapist days and no one will ever get me to call what today is date rape "forced seduction" either.

Other genres are different. I can go along with someone in a thriller or mystery struggling with alcoholism, etc., but generally speaking if the MC is really stupid or depraved, I'm not interested. Cozy mysteries where the amateur sleuth is an obnoxious busy body or clueless bumbler don't work for me either. For me the point of a cozy isn't merely solving the mystery. I want to enjoy the setting and spending time with the characters. I suppose that's true in more than cozies because I reread Dick Francis every few years and occasionally reread an Agatha Christie. Tey's _Brat Farrar_ is another one I reread every so many years. I'm not sure if it qualifies as a cozy or not.


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## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

ellenoc said:


> Yes, characters need to grow, but if they start from a place that makes believing they're ever going to approach being decent human beings impossible, no one can sell me the story. I stopped reading romance for a long time during the "hero" as rapist days and no one will ever get me to call what today is date rape "forced seduction" either.


I am definitely NOT a religious person, but I heard an "Amen, sister" just come out of my mouth!


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2013)

When I was in high school, we studied classical myths. One day in class, a student who thought he was being "smart" asked the teacher "Why do these people do such stupid stuff?" (Because if you have spent any time reading classical mythology, you know that both the heroes and the gods are, without a doubt, dumb as wood  ). The teacher, without missing a beat, replied "Because if they didn't, we wouldn't have a story."

But he went on to explain something that I have actually carried with me. The nature of great literature IS people doing stupid things, because humans, for all of our brilliance, are very stupid. We do stupid stuff all the time, and those stupid actions generally are the cause of our misey. If you think about most plots, the majority of them boil down to people making bad decisions and those decisions coming back to bite them in the butt. Ultimately, most problems aren't the result of some external evil out to destroy innocent humanity. They are the result of self-inflicted injuries because we don't plan, don't think, don't listen to reason. We trust the wrong people for the wrong reasons. We believe bad things happen to "other people" and can't happen to us. We make assumptions based on what we want to be true instead of the actual facts on the ground. We have limited survival instincts and almost no real danger sense, because we are too busy being afraid of things that statistically won't happen instead of the things in our own homes.

The fact that we have not exterminated ourselves as a species is nothing short of a miracle.

So for me, the issue is less about heroes doing stupid things than it is heroes doing stupid things that are _not in character._ Condom use is not a given (just look at the number of unplanned pregnancies and the continued spread of STDs within the real world population. I can "buy" a untrained, non-law enforcement heroine making a stupid decision to walk into a dark alley with a bad guy. Because people are stupid, and unless you have specifically honed your danger sense, it is very easy for a determined bad guy to lure the average person into a dangerous situation. Now if you tell me that your 20 year veteran of the police force followed the bad guy into an alley, we may have a problem. But the 20 year vet will be a diffrent kind of stupid. She may not trust the bad guy, but she's so cynical that she doesn't trust ANYONE, even when it is obvious the person really is trying to help.


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## TiffanyMonroe (Jul 7, 2012)

I'm actually okay with non-condom sex, at least in erotica. For me, it's a fantasy, so if this is a universe where prengancies are always wanted and there are no STDs, then that's okay.


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