# Kindle and EPub ("Overdrive" library books)



## skross (Jan 1, 2011)

Proud owner of a new Kindle 3 here (well, partial owner; wife wanted it for Christmas so we got it; now she uses it and I am basically in charge of finding content) ...

Anyway, one of our concerns before getting the device was the availability of free reading material. We have found a number of sources, including the "free" sections on amazon.com as well as other things that can be converted using Calibre or whatever; but what we would really like to do would be to download and read the e-books that are available through our public library's participation in the "Overdrive" program. Most of these are in the "Epub" format, meaning Adobe's "Digital Editions" are the most convenient way to read them. The Nook and other readers, however, *can* read them. 
I've spent some time investigating this, and I know it's been discussed on these boards before; it seems the basic consensus is that Amazon has no incentive to provide Epub support since the Kindle is essentially a delivery device for Kindle format books, and it's already the hottest selling e-reader so why bother?

On the other hand, it seems that if Amazon perceived a demand for this capability they could feel pressured to add it (it might even be a firmware upgrade that could be applied to existing Kindles) ... and if B&N can provide this without harming their bottom line, why couldn't Amazon? I guess what I am asking is whether other users see this as a "live" or important issue at all, and whether anyone thinks Epub will ever come to the Kindle. Sorry for being so longwinded!


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## CoffeeCat (Sep 13, 2010)

Not that having epub/library book access on Kindle wouldn't be nice, but I don't think it's something that Amazon is going to feel particularly pressured to do when most people who choose a Kindle know that they're going into it without epub availability. The idea of the library lending is cool, but not having it doesn't make me feel as if my Kindle is lacking. 

I guess it all depends on what people are looking for. It would be cool to see it in the future just for variety's sake, but if it doesn't happen, I don't think Amazon will be hurting much because of it.


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

I highly doubt Amazon will start using epub format unless the other e-readers on the market actually start to take a large chunk out of their pie.


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## jhanel (Dec 22, 2010)

Download Calibre (a free download)

It is an epub manager/conversion tool. I believe it will convert to .mobi format (the format that Kindle can handle)

Try that and let me know if it works.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

jhanel said:


> Download Calibre (a free download)
> 
> It is an epub manager/conversion tool. I believe it will convert to .mobi format (the format that Kindle can handle)
> 
> Try that and let me know if it works.


My understanding is that Calibre can not convert epubs with DRM, which Overdrive library books do contain.


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## skross (Jan 1, 2011)

Right, thanks for the replies... I have checked out Calibre and the problem is the DRM.  I don't feel inclined to go off-reservation to break this, for the obvious reasons!


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## jhanel (Dec 22, 2010)

No... and as an author... I appreciate that.  

If it's DRM'd you're pretty much stuck until either the library distributes it in a different format that Kindle can read, makes an agreement and technology deal with Amazon (probably not likely) or they change the Kindle... again, not likely.

I believe the Nook handles epub natively, as do many other readers. Perhaps this will force Amazon's hand... but I'm not holding my breath. Amazon is doing fine right now with it's current model, and I don't expect them to change in the near future. Now if Nook gets a bigger market share .... (shrugs) Who knows?


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## skross (Jan 1, 2011)

jhanel said:


> If it's DRM'd you're pretty much stuck until either the library distributes it in a different format that Kindle can read, makes an agreement and technology deal with Amazon (probably not likely) or they change the Kindle... again, not likely.


Actually, you've given me an idea: Given the Kindle's popularity, maybe the library (or Overdrive itself) is where pressure should be applied. If Overdrive decides to add Kindle format to its offerings, I can see no reason why Amazon shouldn't want to cooperate, at least by providing conversion software. This could solve my problem, and enlarge the market by bringing in more people for whom Epub is important...
Thanks again.


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## SusanCassidy (Nov 9, 2008)

Some libraries used to support Mobipocket format, and you could kludge a book up with some scripts to make them work on Kindle, but they did not work unmodified.

Both the format and the DRM have to be handled on the Kindle.  The DRM used for most library books requires Adobe software on the pc, in order to work.


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## laurie_lu (May 10, 2010)

There is a script out there made to function in Calibre that will strip the DRM so you can read library EPub's on it.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

I don't see Amazon adding ePub to the Kindle.  Of course they often do things without getting my permission!   . But I don't see it.

In the meantime, I am reading overdrive library books with  the overdrive app on my Android phone.


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## karichelle (Dec 28, 2010)

I wish something would happen to make it work -- although it will probably have to be Overdrive making them available in Kindle format. I would think it would be beneficial to them because it would get more people to ask their libraries to offer the service.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't think Kindle will use ePub anytime soon, if ever.  Amazon have been pretty clear as to why they use mobi:  they wanted to have control over their DRM scheme and not simply license someone else's.

For me, personally, this is a non-issue.  Amazon has 3/4 million books available.  That's kind of plenty.   And I have no interest in borrowing library books.  Not saying anything against those who do, just that it's not a thing that is important to me.

But there are lots of other ereaders/devices that library books DO work on -- if it's an important consideration for someone, the nook, Kobo, and Sony are reasonably well regarded, and there are apps, as someone mentioned, for smartphones and iThings.


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

Libraries in our state recently got ebooks via overdrive.  All I can say is good luck getting anything you want when you want it.  I guess that's why I pretty much always avoided the regular library too, lol.


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## karichelle (Dec 28, 2010)

I had no idea this was even available until I got my Kindle and joined this board. If I had known about it and known that one of our local libraries is going to be participating, I might have looked closer at the Nook. In any case, it would be nice if Overdrive would start offering things in a Kindle friendly format. More books is always good.  Reading on a backlit device hurts my eyes after a while.


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## Basilius (Feb 20, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I don't think Kindle will use ePub anytime soon, if ever. Amazon have been pretty clear as to why they use mobi: they wanted to have control over their DRM scheme and not simply license someone else's.


It's a bit of a technicality, but ePub and DRM are separate things. Amazon could put their DRM scheme onto an ePub file with pretty much no problem whatsoever.

There are currently three different DRM schemes associated with ePub files that I'm aware of: Apple's FairPlay, Adobe Digital Editions, and Barnes & Noble. Kobo also does something unusual with their in-app books. They're ePub, but stored in a database, and I think support non-standard extensions.


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## skross (Jan 1, 2011)

I know it is possible to break DRM; I am just not interested in doing it right now.  I also know it is possible to find other books and other readers for the Overdrive books; however, for me the ideal situation would be to read Overdrive books on the Kindle.

That said, the issue of mobi has been raised.  I may be getting in over my head here; but I do know that Overdrive has some material in mobi format which the Kindle is supposed to be able to read.  When I tried to download one of these items as an experiment, I was stumped because Overdrive asked me for the ID of my mobi device (or words to that effect).  I don't have an android phone or any other device save my computer and my Kindle.  Does anyone know what I should have done at that stage?


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## speedlever (Nov 23, 2010)

CoffeeCat said:


> snip
> I don't think it's something that Amazon is going to feel particularly pressured to do when most people who choose a Kindle know that they're going into it without epub availability.
> snip


I wonder how many new Kindle owners actually know this? I learned it in my research before jumping into the EBR world, but I wonder how many people who bought and/or received EBRs as gifts assumed (justifiably so, imo) that an EBR is an EBR and just like a car, can get gas at any brand of station?

I really wanted library access too... and learned how to deal with it before owning an EBR. But the reality has not met expectations in that regard. My local library does not have that many ebooks to lend (compared to DTB) and such that there are have long waits. Well, except for the odd book like the one page 1886 KY census report or similar. I just browsed the first 10 pages of my library ebook section and found 4 books available for reading. The rest have a waiting list.


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## azealand (Jan 6, 2011)

karichelle said:


> ... it would be nice if Overdrive would start offering things in a Kindle friendly format....


I work for a Public Library with a big Overdrive program, so I can speak to this issue. *The compatibility problem lies with Amazon, not Overdrive* - as an eBook vendor, Overdrive wants its product to be available on as many devices as possible. The more people who can download their books from their libraries, the more demand there will be for their eBooks - so if they could work with Kindle, they would.

But as has been stated by others, Amazon doesn't need library downloads, not by a long shot. So it would take some crazy game changer (the kind of thing I can't even see on the horizon at this point) to make them interested in working with Overdrive.

*Speedlever*, we try to put this info out there (from my Library's eBook info pages) as often as possible. But even though we do state over and over "the Kindle doesn't allow overdrive eBooks," people still ask us "But what about the Kindle?" We're having an eReader Clinic tonight at my library, and I fully expect that we'll get this question. And Amazon doesn't exactly make Library incompatibility part of their sales pitch...

My solution to all this is to use my Kindle (which I do love) for books I want to own/read slowly (and lots of the free stuff) - and I'm planning to switch to an android phone this month (with wireless Overdrive download!) for EPUBS from the Library.


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## azealand (Jan 6, 2011)

laurie_lu said:


> There is a script out there made to function in Calibre that will strip the DRM so you can read library EPub's on it.


FWIW, If you do strip off the DRM on an EPUB - which I believe includes the "check-out period", you have an ebook you didn't pay for, which is unfair to the author. (Project Gutenberg doesn't have to worry about that, because they're only working with books that are out of copyright.)

As I understand it, Calibri was converting mobi format books to Kindle-friendly format (there's a discussion about that on these boards, from last spring), and not stripping off the time-license, so that the Library eBooks still expired after 21 days (or whatever the borrowing period was), even on your Kindle. But it doesn't seem to be able to do that with EPUBS.

Yet...


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## speedlever (Nov 23, 2010)

What about those EBRs with no clock? They have no way to observe the time period either.


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## Xopher (May 14, 2009)

My thinking is that we may eventually see an ePub app on the Kindle. That would take the pressure off of Amazon, since they wouldn't have to worry about licensing Adobe DRM, and individuals could purchase and install the app who want/need it.

Amazon hasn't opened up the SDK to all developers yet. Once they do, it wouldn't surprise me to see this come through as an option.


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## azealand (Jan 6, 2011)

speedlever said:


> What about those EBRs with no clock? They have no way to observe the time period either.


Good question - the clock is only relevant in the case of Library downloads, so with EPUBS you paid for, I don't think there would be any problem (I'm only fluent in Library Overdrive issues).

And I really, really hope that Amazon does allow developers in soon. *Xopher*, what do you think are the chances?


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## Xopher (May 14, 2009)

I don't know when they will open the SDK up. I do mobile app development already for BlackBerry (adding Android soon). I'm not sure what it would entail to bring ePub to Kindle, but since they are allowing apps to be created for Kindle (games right now), the possibility is there.


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## SusanCassidy (Nov 9, 2008)

Xopher said:


> My thinking is that we may eventually see an ePub app on the Kindle.


The Amazon guidelines for apps say that the app may "not be a generic reader", so that leaves out apps that read other formats.


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## Kiki68 (Dec 30, 2010)

I researched thoroughly the Nook vs. the Kindle, and I was concerned (at first) that the Kindle did not support my library's eBooks.  I am a heavy duty library user.  I do buy books too, when I can't get them from the library or I just want to own them.  I have heard, though, that there was a long waiting list for eBooks in our system (! surprisingly enough) and you only have two weeks, no renewal is possible, and I don't like that.  I still read "real" books anyway, so anything that is not available on Kindle, I can borrow.  Frankly, I can't stand the Nook, so the Kindle was a no brainer, especially with all the free books you can get on Kindle and now, with the loaning program possible... 

I have a friend who has hacked her Kindle and is getting free books from our library system--I just think it is unethical, although I have considered doing it.  I love books and authors and they deserve to get paid for their hard work.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

Kiki68 said:


> I have a friend who has hacked her Kindle and is getting free books from our library system--I just think it is unethical, although I have considered doing it. I love books and authors and they deserve to get paid for their hard work.


I don't think it's unethical if she's getting them from the library; however I would not run the risk of hacking my Kindle as that may break it and void any warranties. 
Authors do not get paid for the books in libraries, other than the initial purchase of the book.
I personally have strong opinions about media rights and they probably run contrary to most posters on this board . . . but this is not the thread to talk about them. I just wanted to say what I said above.


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## Kiki68 (Dec 30, 2010)

Sorry to offend by getting "off topic," those are my thoughts on the whole library thing! It *is* unethical to steal books--from the library so you don't have to buy them and because then the library has to replace them(although I have no idea what happens in the eBook case). Just because it is easier to do so now with technology doesn't make it okay. You are getting a book for free/forever when you strip the protection, and you are now cheating the author out of the sales/proceeds from that book. Pretty unethical if you ask me.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

Kiki68 said:


> Sorry to offend by getting "off topic," . . .


No, I was afraid of hijacking the thread . . . not you.



Kiki68 said:


> It *is* unethical to steal books--from the library so you don't have to buy them and because then the library has to replace them(although I have no idea what happens in the eBook case) . . .


Yes, stealing from the library is a bad thing to do, no matter how you slice it. I didn't think about the library needing to replace the book.



Kiki68 said:


> You are getting a book for free/forever when you strip the protection, and you are now cheating the author out of the sales/proceeds from that book. Pretty unethical if you ask me.


This is the part I was talking about as far as media rights and the author not getting paid for people checking out his books at a library.


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## Kiki68 (Dec 30, 2010)

All good!


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

azealand said:


> I work for a Public Library with a big Overdrive program, so I can speak to this issue. *The compatibility problem lies with Amazon, not Overdrive* - as an eBook vendor, Overdrive wants its product to be available on as many devices as possible.


Thank you for sharing your practical insight and knowledge.

I agree that Amazon is unlikely to concern itself with adding epub compatibility.

Do you know what it would take for a library to add Amazon-style DRM protected Mobi to its offerings? Would this be prohibitively costly or complicated? Is this addition to library offerings likely to occur?


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## laurie_lu (May 10, 2010)

Return the Kindle and buy a Sony Pocket Reader or a Kobo, or a Nook which all can download free library EPub books.  You are probably within your return period.


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

Kiki68 said:


> Sorry to offend by getting "off topic," those are my thoughts on the whole library thing! It *is* unethical to steal books--from the library so you don't have to buy them and because then the library has to replace them(although I have no idea what happens in the eBook case). Just because it is easier to do so now with technology doesn't make it okay. You are getting a book for free/forever when you strip the protection, and you are now cheating the author out of the sales/proceeds from that book. Pretty unethical if you ask me.


What if you delete them when the lending time period is up? Still stealing and unethical?


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## Kiki68 (Dec 30, 2010)

If you hack your Kindle, you void your warranty, so there's the trade off.


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## parakeetgirl (Feb 27, 2009)

Forster said:


> What if you delete them when the lending time period is up? Still stealing and unethical?


Nope..and you are not hacking the Kindle when you strip DRM either..it has no effect on your warranty.

The fact that I can now read library books on my Kindle makes it all the more perfect.


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

Kiki68 said:


> If you hack your Kindle, you void your warranty, so there's the trade off.


I don't know what your friend did but I didn't have to do anything to my Kindle to get library books onto it. I had to strip the DRM from the Library ebook and then convert it to mobi in Calibre.

Yes it is unethical, so I can see why others don't want to do it but I just delete the book after I'm done reading it so I have no problem living with my actions.


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## skross (Jan 1, 2011)

SusanCassidy said:


> The Amazon guidelines for apps say that the app may "not be a generic reader", so that leaves out apps that read other formats.


Well that kind of sucks; but at least it's a pretty definitive answer. Thanks! I am thinking my next cell phone may be an Android or something with a screen a little larger than my current Blackberry. From the tenor of this conversation and others, I have the sense that the Android could run an EPub reading app... and, I suppose, also a Kindle reader?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Just a quick reminder, folks that discussions of or links to how to strip DRM, for any purpose, is contrary to the rules of KindleBoards.  As it is against Amazon's Terms of Service, we don't allow such discussions here.  Posts of this sort may be or may have been deleted.


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## chilady1 (Jun 9, 2009)

kindlegrl81 said:


> I don't know what your friend did but I didn't have to do anything to my Kindle to get library books onto it. I had to strip the DRM from the Library ebook and then convert it to mobi in Calibre.
> 
> Yes it is unethical, so I can see why others don't want to do it but I just delete the book after I'm done reading it so I have no problem living with my actions.


I have done the same and have been reading library books for over two years. Once I have completed the book or its past it's prescribed lending period (usually about 14 days) I delete the book forever from my Kindle. I was able to take out Fall of Giants, read it and then delete it. I NEVER keep any of the library books I read because as someone pointed out in an earlier post that would be stealing. Do I fiddle with the book in order to read it - YES, do I keep the book once read - NO.


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

kindlegrl81 said:


> I don't know what your friend did but I didn't have to do anything to my Kindle to get library books onto it. I had to strip the DRM from the Library ebook and then convert it to mobi in Calibre.
> 
> Yes it is unethical, so I can see why others don't want to do it but I just delete the book after I'm done reading it so I have no problem living with my actions.


Stripping DRM might be illegal but I fail to see how doing so to read library books (assuming you delete them) is unethical.

I pay for the public library and their services via taxes. I have very little/no say so in this matter and yet it is unethically for me to avail myself of their services? I don't think so.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

Ethics deals with how one's actions effect others.

Stripping DRM from a library file does not negatively impact others as long as you do not keep the file any longer than you have it properly checked out.  Keeping it longer than this is unfair to the author and publisher.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

Forster said:


> Stripping DRM might be illegal but I fail to see how doing so to read library books (assuming you delete them) is unethical.


I have no argument about the ethics of the situation here. I have about 70 purchased books from Amazon on my Kindle and about *10k* PDF's that I got from friends and folks online. Most of the PDFs are *classic  * sci-fi, fantasy and horror. Most are also all available in my library system as printed books.

What we are talking about here is truly a matter of semantics, you and a couple others are saying that as long as you delete them you should be able to do what others think is unethical.
Well, my argument for having all these ill-gotten PDFs could be something like _"these are digital copies of printed books I have purchased in the past or that I may find free from friends or received for free in some other manner"_. When you strip away the rationalizing how does this differ from your _*steal a book then delete it*_ argument?
Huge amounts of the eBooks I have are out of print and the *only* way to find them would be at some old used book store and the author and publisher would not get a dime for them.

Have you ever borrowed a book, got a book as a gift recorded some one else's cassette tape?

Don't get me wrong, I have NO problem with what you are doing. But let's not mince words . . . this is exactly what it looks like, people rationalizing and doing what in this culture is currently saying is unethical.

I and others pirate media, not for profit but to make a stand. This may not be the place to discuss my political views about this so I won't. I just wanted to say that there * is no difference between what you are promoting and what I blatantly do. Both you and I are media pirates*.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

Elk said:


> Keeping it longer than this is unfair to the author and publisher.


Oh yeah . . . how?
How are the author and publisher negatively affected by you keeping a book longer? Or are you saying this because it sounds right and that's what you think you should say?


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## ice-9 (Dec 7, 2010)

I had researched various e-readers a good bit before asking for my Kindle for Christmas, and the library issue was the ONLY one in my opinion where the Kindle fell short. For just about everything else, I felt the Kindle won. Hence I asked for a Kindle.

After reading this and a few similar threads, last night I decided to research the DRM stripping workaround that is causing so much controversy. Not that I see myself checking out library books left and right, but just so I could better understand the limitations of my Kindle and this hot issue. I followed the instructions given on this board and mobilereads for all the pre-DRM stuff, and followed the suggestion here to Google "Apprentice Alf" for the rest. I tested it all out with a 7-day library book I have no interest in and just deleted the resulting file after seeing how it worked.

FWIW, here's what I, a rookie e-book reader, found:

The process is really easy. Not saying that makes it right, but I don't think the "too much trouble" argument hold water. I don't have a Sony e-reader to compare, but I'm pretty certain the only extra step for viewing a library book on a Kindle once everything is installed is a drag and drop to implement the DRM.
As some have suggested, my library has a woefully small selection of ePub files available for download anyway. (There seemed to be an infinite number of audiobooks, which I never realized were so popular.) There was a better selection of PDF books, which may not be optimal for reading on an e-reader. But a total of 24 books in the whole library ready for immediate download in ePub format! Other libraries may be different, but with that kind of limited selection, I'm glad I didn't sacrifice what I felt were other important advantages of the Kindle to buy a different device.
There is so much available for free or for cheap that I don't see myself bothering to check library availability of ePub books. If I did and managed to find something I liked, I personally think it would be OK to strip the DRM as long as I deleted it before the due date, but of course others on this thread obviously disagree.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

All this talk about the ethics of DRM is misleading.

It is not illegal to strip DRM, it is however a breach of license.

DRM is not there to protect the author or artist it is used so that the retailers can control were and how the media is played. In Amazons case they have the right to do that as they state that the eBooks from there site are not actually owned by the user, we are basically leasing them, so Amazon is well within their rights to dictate were and how we use there media.

Ann in Arlington has it right; it's against Amazon's Terms of Service to strip DRM from its content. I have no interest in striping DRM, when I buy a book from Amazon I am fully prepared to only read it on their Kindle products.

ITunes has done away with its DRM due to user outrage at being unable to play there purchased music on any player they may have. The users argument was that if they purchased the media it should be playable across all there media playing software & devices not just iTunes and iPods. The users also wanted to be able to burn there purchased music and back it up.

Amazon may one day find itself in the same situation as the folks over at ITunes, but that's not the case today.

*From Amazon: Use of Digital Content*_. Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Other Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Unless otherwise specified, *Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider*. The Content Provider may post additional terms for Digital Content in the Kindle Store. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Digital Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.

*Limitations.* Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not bypass, modify, defeat, or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content._


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

auge_28 said:


> How are the author and publisher negatively affected by you keeping a book longer? Or are you saying this because it sounds right and that's what you think you should say?


No need to be insulting. I don't write "because it sounds right and that's what you think you should say?"

Keeping an ebook longer than it is properly checked out creates an additional copy of the book. The returned book is available for another reader, in addition to the copy you have kept. Two books instead of one.

Authors and publishers are entitled to be compensated for each ebook in circulation. Your copy deprives them of this income. For example, if you did not keep the illicit copy you would need to buy your own copy. Another option is to check it out again, a copy already paid for.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

Elk said:


> No need to be insulting. I don't write "because it sounds right and that's what you think you should say?"


I was not intending to be insulting, it's hard to get the right "tone" across in these forums. Trust me, I am not arguing with emotion here. Sorry if it came across harsher than intended. I'm not here to make enemies or get in fights.
I honestly wanted to know why you think that the publisher and author suffer because of striped DRM and if your opinion comes from a logical argument or if it's a matter of what you feel is right . . . both are correct answers for you, and no one can argue about your feeling of right and wrong&#8230; but logically I disagree with the point.



Elk said:


> Keeping an ebook longer than it is properly checked out creates an additional copy of the book. The returned book is available for another reader, in addition to the copy you have kept. Two books instead of one.


I honestly do not know how the system works, but this sounds like a licensing issue.
And also this sounds less like a DRM ethics issue than a "hogging" a book from other users issue.



Elk said:


> Authors and publishers are entitled to be compensated for each ebook in circulation. Your copy deprives them of this income. For example, if you did not keep the illicit copy you would need to buy your own copy. Another option is to check it out again, a copy already paid for.


I wonder if this is a fact, I don't think most people would check out a book, read it then buy a copy. I read books just once. 
I think your second point is much more valid when it comes to library books . . . nobody should be a book hog. But don't they know who checked it out and don't they have a process in place to charge late fees? I don't know if this applies to eBooks, but how hard is it to track?


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

auge_28 said:


> It is not illegal to strip DRM, it is however a breach of license.


While the specific act of breaching DRM is not illegal, any software which does so is illegal under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It is an interesting quirk in the law.

The argument that stripping DRM is not illegal is a red herring however. Any copies made are still subject to copyright law. The copy is illegal.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

auge_28 said:


> I was not intending to be insulting, it's hard to get the right "tone" across in these forums.


Very fair and an excellent point.



> I wonder if this is a fact, I don't think most people would check out a book, read it then buy a copy.


I don't mean to suggest that this is what people do. My point is that you need to return the ebook when it is due (actually it time expires). If you want to have a copy beyond this period you need to buy a copy of your own. If you make and keep a copy you have deprived the author of a deserved sale.

On the flip side, I don't think ethically it matters if you check out a book, strip DRM so you can read it on another platform, and delete that copy when the checkout time expires. You have not deprived anyone of anything that is rightfully theirs.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

Elk said:


> While the specific act of breaching DRM is not illegal, any software which does so is illegal under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It is an interesting quirk in the law.


Hhmmm&#8230;, I have not read this document so I have nothing to add or say here. If you have it handy can you link it for me?



Elk said:


> The argument that stripping DRM is not illegal is a red herring however. Any copies made are still subject to copyright law. The copy is illegal.


Great point&#8230; I agree with you totally.
I think this supports my assertion that a blatant media pirate and a person who strips away DRM to read a library book is fairly similar.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

Elk said:


> . . . I don't think ethically it matters if you check out a book, strip DRM so you can read it on another platform, and delete that copy when the checkout time expires. You have not deprived anyone of anything that is rightfully theirs.


But you are breaking your license agreement with the library, which is be an ethical issue . . . don't you agree?


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

auge_28 said:


> But you are breaking your license agreement with the library, which is be an ethical issue . . . don't you agree?


Good point, although I don't know what license agreement - if any the user enters into when checking out an ebook.

It could be a breach of contract. However I don't see any harm coming to the library if a user transcodes the ebook for reading on an another device during the period the ebook is active.

I similarly don't have a problem with making MP3s of a library music CD to listen to while you have the CD checked out. Just delete the MP3s when you have to return the CD.


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## mooshie78 (Jul 15, 2010)

Breaking any DRM is technically wrong and against the laws/regulations.

It's up to each person on whether they're ok with doing that based on their own moral codes.

Library books are moot for me as I wouldn't want to hassle with the 14 day limits anyway as I often get busy and don't read for a few days etc.


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## karichelle (Dec 28, 2010)

For me, as long as I delete it at the time when it would have expired anyhow, then all I am doing is making the file to where I can read it on my device. I'm still adhering to their "rules" as far as the time limits I have the product, and I'm not stripping the DRM so I can "steal" it.

I haven't done it since my version of Mac OS X can't run the necessary scripts, and I am hoping that when our library adds Overdrive soon, they will offer Mobipocket books and not just EPUB so I can read them without stripping them.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

azealand said:


> I work for a Public Library with a big Overdrive program, so I can speak to this issue. *The compatibility problem lies with Amazon, not Overdrive* - as an eBook vendor, Overdrive wants its product to be available on as many devices as possible. The more people who can download their books from their libraries, the more demand there will be for their eBooks - so if they could work with Kindle, they would.
> 
> But as has been stated by others, Amazon doesn't need library downloads, not by a long shot. So it would take some crazy game changer (the kind of thing I can't even see on the horizon at this point) to make them interested in working with Overdrive.
> 
> ...


The problem lies with Overdrive. Amazon is the clear leader in the EBook market in the United states. I have seen the percentage bounce between 70-80 percent of the US market controlled by Amazon. Overdrive choose to use EPub and not Mobi knowing that Amazon uses Mobi.

If Overdrive wants to reach the most people they should either switch to Mobi, meeting the needs of most of the ebring crowd, or offer both formats.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

mooshie78 said:


> Breaking any DRM is technically wrong and against the laws/regulations.


Oddly it is not.

You cannot make software that breaks/removes DRM. It is however not illegal to actual do the removal. Weird, huh?

I suspect the legislative intent is to prohibit making the tools of crime. It is perhaps roughly analogous to making sale of pot illegal, but in many states you can possess a small personal amount with little consequence.

However the resulting non-DRM protected file is still subject to copyright law. For example, you cannot make additional copies and hand them out.

I also posit that it is illegal to break time-limiting DRM on a library book and keep the book beyond the time restriction.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

ProfCrash said:


> I have seen the percentage bounce between 70-80 percent of the US market controlled by Amazon.


Do you have a cite?

While the Kindle is the single strongest selling ereader, there are a lot of ereaders - most of which recognize epub.

I would be interested in knowing of the ereaders in consumers' hands, what percentage are Kindles and what percentage is everything else.


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## screwballl (Jan 4, 2011)

Elk said:


> Do you have a cite?
> 
> While the Kindle is the single strongest selling ereader, there are a lot of ereaders - most of which recognize epub.
> 
> I would be interested in knowing of the ereaders in consumers' hands, what percentage are Kindles and what percentage is everything else.


Amazon themselves had some press releases stating they have 70-80% of the ebook market, but did not specify the books themselves, the readers, or a combination of the 2. Considering the sales and popularity, I would say 70% is a reasonable expectation.


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

auge_28 said:


> I have no argument about the ethics of the situation here. I have about 70 purchased books from Amazon on my Kindle and about *10k* PDF's that I got from friends and folks online. Most of the PDFs are *classic  * sci-fi, fantasy and horror. Most are also all available in my library system as printed books.
> 
> What we are talking about here is truly a matter of semantics, you and a couple others are saying that as long as you delete them you should be able to do what others think is unethical.
> Well, my argument for having all these ill-gotten PDFs could be something like _"these are digital copies of printed books I have purchased in the past or that I may find free from friends or received for free in some other manner"_. When you strip away the rationalizing how does this differ from your _*steal a book then delete it*_ argument?
> ...


My bad, poorly worded. I don't personally don't strip library DRM, I just don't have a problem with people rationalizing or otherwise when they do it... if they abide by the length of lending terms. More in keeping with the spirit of the law rather than the letter of it. If it's okay to borrow library ebooks then it should be okay to modify library ebooks in order to read them... just don't forget about the borrowing part.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

Elk said:


> You cannot make software that breaks/removes DRM. It is however not illegal to actual do the removal. Weird, huh?


Not really . . .  . . . it's legal to buy beer, but illegal to be drunk.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

auge_28 said:


> Not really . . .  . . . it's legal to buy beer, but illegal to be drunk.


Good one!


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

screwballl said:


> Amazon themselves had some press releases stating they have 70-80% of the ebook market,


And Apple states it has 20% and Banes and Noble claims 20%.  I also suspect Amazon counts downloading its free public domain books as "sales."

I just did some digging and can't find data as to what percentage of ereaders are Kindles v. those that read epub.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

The way I understand it, Kindle is the odd one out and that ePub is the uniform standard.
Don’t know if that helps and I'm probably repeating what everybody knows already.


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

auge_28 said:


> The way I understand it, Kindle is the odd one out and that ePub is the uniform standard.
> Don't know if that helps and I'm probably repeating what everybody knows already.


Everyone else is the odd one out, they just don't know it yet.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

auge_28 said:


> The way I understand it, Kindle is the odd one out and that ePub is the uniform standard.


That's my understanding as well.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Elk said:


> And Apple states it has 20% and Banes and Noble claims 20%.  I also suspect Amazon counts downloading its free public domain books as "sales."
> 
> I just did some digging and can't find data as to what percentage of ereaders are Kindles v. those that read epub.


Using those numbers, Amazon has 60% of the e-book market making it the majority owner. I have seen articles in NY Times, Wall Street Journal, and on tech websites that use 70-80%. I am going to believe those. Overdrive choose to support a format that is not dominant in the US and libraries chose Overdrive.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

ProfCrash said:


> Using those numbers, Amazon has 60% of the e-book market making it the majority owner.


It isn't this simple.

The numbers are for Amazon's _claimed_ marketshare of commercial downloads. This does not equal the the percentage of ereaders that are Mobi-only.

Further, the numbers are skewed. The 70-80% figure of ebook "sales" (including downloaded public domain certainly) is from an interview with Amazon's CEO - hardly an unbiased source and - as already noted - obviously inflated.

The numbers are also only for three commercial sources (Amazon, Apple, B&N). As we all know, many people download from free public domain sources such as Gutenberg, buy from independent authors, etc. These are not represented.

What we need to know is what percentage of currently owned e-readers recognize ePub. I haven't been able to find this figure.

And apparently no one else can either.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

No, the market share numbers are based on analysis done by professionals working for a variety of newspapers and magazines. I can't think of an interview I have seen with Jeff Bezos where he, or any of his employees, have ever given a percentage in terms of market share or hard numbers on anything. The market share numbers that I have seen are independent assesments of the market and they always have Amazon in the 70% range if not higher.

There was a post on Mobile Read that listed the number of e-book readers sold in Germany and it was amazingly small, under 100,000 total. Germany is mentioned frequently in the MR discussion of EPub vs Mobi because Germany is suppose to have the largest number of e-book sales in Continental Europe. If those numbers were accurate, then it is safe to say that EPub is not the exploding format that people claim it is.

My guess is tha BN choose EPub because it prevented most of its users from buying from Amazon. It says something when some of the first topics regarding the Nook Color being rooted were focused on downloading the Kindle for Android App so users didn't have to worry about the legalities of stripping DRM.  Amazon noted that e-book sales rose by a decent amount when the IPad was launched, the Kindle of IPad app is in the top ten free applications downloaded.

What is the message? That the EPub device users are looking for ways to read Mobi books from Amazon.

Overdrive choose a format that is not dominant in the US. I have no idea why Overdrive would choose EPub and not choose EPub and Mobi, it strikes me as a bad decision on their part.


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## auge_28 (Oct 3, 2010)

_Mobipocket.com was bought by Amazon.com in 2005. Amazon's acquisition was believed to be a result of Adobe Systems's announcement that it would no longer sell its eBook packaging and serving software. _

*AND*

_EPUB became an official standard of the International Digital Publishing Forum (IDPF) in September 2007, superseding the older Open eBook standard. _

I think this goes a long way to explain why Amazon is allowing MOBI.

Who says ePub is not dominant? Are we judging this on the number of Amazon eBooks sold or by companies or publishers that use a particular formate?
It's my understanding that ePub is the overall standard.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

ProfCrash said:


> I can't think of an interview I have seen with Jeff Bezos where he, or any of his employees, have ever given a percentage in terms of market share or hard numbers on anything.


You are kidding. A simple Google search results in dozens of hits.

"'Amazon controls between 70% and 80% of the total e-book market', according to the firm's VP in charge of Kindle, Ian Freed." See, e.g., _Digital Media_. Again, note the problems with this number as I illustrate above.



> Amazon noted that e-book sales rose by a decent amount when the IPad was launched, the Kindle of IPad app is in the top ten free applications downloaded.


Yes, behind Apple's own e-reader app and the Kindle app often switching places with B&N's ePub app. All this establishes is that iPad users read. 

Again, what we need is the percentage of currently owned e-readers which recognize ePub. This is the only fact that matters.


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## ice-9 (Dec 7, 2010)

I have no idea how reliable this website is, but they claim 1.6 million Kindles sold in December 2010. And they quote 8 million Kindles sold for all of 2010.

http://www.e-reader-info.com/report-16-million-kindles-were-sold-december-2010-8-million-whole-year

The same article estimates 10 million total e-reader shipments in 2010. So, if this article is to be believed, 80% of new e-readers purchased in 2010 were Kindles.


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## Belle2Be (Aug 29, 2010)

Kiki68 said:


> If you hack your Kindle, you void your warranty, so there's the trade off.


Actually, I don't think this is completely true. I hacked my first one to include the customized screensavers, then had to return it, they didn't say anything and refunded my money. 
Also, you would be hacking the book, not the Kindle, so it wouldn't affect the warranty anyway.


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