# Uh-Oh... not a good day for MobileRead.com



## Chris (Dec 6, 2008)

From the Article:

Amazon sent a legal notice to MobileRead.com complaining that information relating to a computer utility written in the Python programming language "constitutes a violation" of the DMCA, according to a copy of the warning letter that the site posted. MobileRead.com is an e-book news and community site.









http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10196424-38.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20


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## MonaSW (Nov 16, 2008)

It's a shame Amazon did that. They need to be a bit more flexible.


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## ScottBooks (Oct 28, 2008)

MonaSW said:


> It's a shame Amazon did that. They need to be a bit more flexible.


This is a joke right?


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## pomlover2586 (Feb 14, 2009)

Don't think it's a joke.................


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## MonaSW (Nov 16, 2008)

ScottBooks said:


> This is a joke right?


No, not a joke. It sure as heck would be nice to be able to read any book on any device, wouldn't it?


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## ElLector (Feb 13, 2009)

You can actually go to mobileread.com's website, and read about it.


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

Damn, that sucks. I was using it - very legally, I might add - to download library e-books in Mobi format, with the DRM retained (the books actually stopped working after 21 days, similar to a real library book where they'd have to be returned after a certain period of time). Wish I had saved a copy of the guide for the future.


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## ScottBooks (Oct 28, 2008)

MonaSW said:


> No, not a joke. It sure as heck would be nice to be able to read any book on any device, wouldn't it?


Legally would be alright I suppose. The only device I'd read on is my Kindle so the rest isn't exactly apropos.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

O.K. folks.  Let's not get carried away.  Kindleboards does not, and never has, condoned discussions of any sort relating to ways to hack the Kindle's DRM.  We mods delete such messages as soon as we see them.  I don't have full background on Mobileread and will not comment on the notice they received or the content they reference.  I will only say:  No discussion of hacking or other methods to defeat DRM will be permitted here.  

Let's all take deep breaths and get back to reading our Kindles. . . .

Thanks,

Ann


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## Chris (Dec 6, 2008)

I apologize for starting this thread.  I thought I was sharing some industry type news and info not trying to get Kindleboards or its users in trouble.

Hangs head in shame and logs off...  

Chris


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Chris,

No need to hang your head in shame. I think it is interesting news and I am glad you brought it to my (our) attention. These are important issues and I think there will be a great deal of "figuring out" in the months and years to come. Some days I feel like we are all building the airplane at the same time that we are flying in it.

L


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

No Chris. You're good. The thread is fine. Ann's post was in response to a post on this thread that has since been deleted (apparently by the original poster).

Thank you for letting us know. I hadn't seen that yet.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Leslie said:


> Chris,
> 
> No need to hang your head in shame. I think it is interesting news and I am glad you brought it to my (our) attention. These are important issues and I think there will be a great deal of "figuring out" in the months and years to come. Some days I feel like we are all building the airplane at the same time that we are flying in it.
> 
> L


Yeah, and we left the blueprints back at the airport.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

This was a perfectly appropriate thread to post, Chris! So no need to apologize!

And it gives us a good opportunity to discuss this issue. Let me underscore what Ann said. Our forum decorum policy has always been clear about not allowing posts on DRM Kindle hacks. We started that policy simply based on our belief that - while DRM is far from a perfect solution, and we do allow discussion of its benefits and drawbacks - we are not going to allow Kindle DRM hacks to be posted or communicated in this board. 

That always felt like the right call, and certainly the events of this week show that Amazon is serious about protecting its content rights.


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## Boston (Nov 7, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification and now it makes more sense.

I also just saw what Ann posted and didn't realize there was offending post(s) deleted.  While I understood that discussing "how" to hack is not permitted, I was concerned if we were not allowed to discuss the pros/cons of Amazon's practices (or similar threads).


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## Chris (Dec 6, 2008)

Ok...  Thanks for the kind words...  I really enjoy being a part of the community and have gained a great deal of knowledge and camaraderie.  I also work in Technical circles so I read a tremendous amount of tech articles and try to share the Kindle info when I run across it.

Now...  As far as that airplane situation...  Hand me a wrench and a screwdriver and let's get on with this...  

Chris


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

My apologies. . .I should probably have quoted the post that prompted my response.  Suffice it to say that it seemed to imply a level of liability for Kindleboards and other internet forums, for which there is no real evidence, just by discussion of the topic.  And, by extension, that the notice to Mobileread might just be the beginning of a crack down.  I was really just trying to pour some oil on rough waters. . .not roughen them further. . . . .mea culpa. . .carry on. . . .   I'm a ditz. . .don't let it worry you. . . .



Ann


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

luvmy4brats said:


> No Chris. You're good. The thread is fine. Ann's post was in response to a post on this thread that has since been deleted (apparently by the original poster).


I deleted my post in response to Ann but didn't actually understand what I had said that was offensive.

I would like to point out that my original post in no way advocated hacking but instead questioned why Amazon would choose to go after the MobileRead.com forum instead of the hacker because I found that troubling. If it was inappropriate for this forum, I apologize.

As a software author I have suffered financial losses over the years from hackers and hold them in the very lowest esteem.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff, it wasn't a question of impropriety.  I found your post to be somewhat alarmist.  We mods discussed it and I was only trying to reassure people that I didn't see any danger for Kindleboards.  It also seemed an appropriate time to reiterate our KB rules against any discussion of how to hack the DRM.

Ann


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Ann Von Hagel said:


> I found your post to be somewhat alarmist.


That may have been because I was alarmed.


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## Boston (Nov 7, 2008)

If we agree discussion is still okay, back to the original topic, here is my personal take of the situation:

MobileRead did not promote ways to remove DRM.   However, they did allow information on how to alter (hack) the DRM so that Kindle owners could put DRM'd mobi documents from other sources onto their Kindle with the DRM effectively still in place.  This encouraged those who where concerned about being tied to the Amazon store only to consider the Kindle.  (I know it did for me..like others, while I purchase 90% of my books from Amazon, I like to borrow an occasional book from the library).

This information has been available for well over a year and no secret to Amazon (heck, I have even seen it mentioned with links to mobileread on their own forums).  There were two scripts - one that helped identify the PID from a serial number and the second script allowed the DRM to be altered (not removed) using the PID so that you could read it on your Kindle.  The first one is the one Amazon is targeting directly.  However, the problem is that the second one is useless without the first.  

While the first script could be used by other scripts (not promoted by MobileRead) to remove the DRM, I think it wasn't seen as much of a threat because you still needed to own a Kindle to buy Kindle books.  However, when Amazon opened its store to iPhone users via iTunes, they realized that getting the PID now opened a distribution hole when used with other scripts (not part of Mobileread).  Their first action was to remove access to the Serial Number (required to determine the PID) from their own pages.  And then they issued the DMCA notice.

Amazon has the most content and I believe its in large part because of their tight control on distribution (such as restricting Kindle books to the U.S. only as much of the publishing world where much of the distribution rights are regional).  When they opened up their store to non-Kindle owners, they realized that access to the PID could suddenly open up their books to those who violated their distribution rights when used with other scripts (again, not part of Mobileread).  Hence their actions (my guess based on timing).  The problem, in my mind, is that rather than target the actual tools used to remove DRM, they targeted the more visible ones that simply provided information that could be used with the tools. 

The outcry you hear is from many Kindle owners who used this not to distribute but as a means to getting non-Amazon material onto their Kindle.  They see it as a move by Amazon to tie them to the Amazon store.  Although this may not have been the intent, it was a consequence.  It didn't help the way Amazon did it...without all the facts straight and without explanation as to why. 

I love my Kindle; however, I do know that the more restrictive it gets and the more open other eReaders become (Sony allows ADEPT Pdfs used by libraries as well as their own standard), the more I will question sticking with the Kindle.  

And mods..if this violates the spirit of the board, then feel free to delete (not my intent); however, I would appreciate a pm as to why.  Thanks.


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## kevindorsey (Mar 4, 2009)

That's pretty harsh from Amazon.


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## akpak (Mar 5, 2009)

What I don't understand about this whole brouhaha is this:

Amazon themselves provide a way for you to get non-Amazon content on your Kindle! Do I really need the script at all if I can send my non-Kindle eBooks to the email address they gave me? Add to that the various free (and legal) software available to convert documents to Kindle format, and none of those places got takedown notices...

I don't see that this restricts the Kindle any more than it already was.

What am I missing here?


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## meljackson (Nov 19, 2008)

I used this to put library books on my kindle, they don't open after the 3 week loan period is up so I never felt like I was doing anything wrong. I was just reading the book I checked on out my kindle rather than on my computer. 

Melissa


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## akpak (Mar 5, 2009)

And that only works with the script installed?


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

akjak said:


> And that only works with the script installed?


The scripts are not installed on the Kindle. They are used to provide you with the Mobi equivalent of your Kindle's serial number so you can read DRMd books, that you acquired legally, on your Kindle.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Boston,

Your post is not violating any rule here at KBoards and I appreciate your thoughtful and reasoned comment. Very interesting info, thanks!

L


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## Boston (Nov 7, 2008)

akjak said:


> And that only works with the script installed?


Most commercial books are protected using some sort of DRM (digital rights management). The Kindle doesn't support any drm format but its own which effectively locks you to the Amazon store. Many public libraries/stores offer books in other drm'd formats that cannot be read on a Kindle without use of the scripts. You borrow/buy the book using your device number (PID) and it can only be read on that device. The second script altered the DRM (while keeping it effectively in place) so that a mobi document could be read on your Kindle if you borrowed/bought it using the Kindle PID. Again, that isn't the script targeted but its useless without the one that identify the needed Kindle PID (which was).

(Thanks Leslie for your note)


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## Boston (Nov 7, 2008)

pidgeon92 said:


> The scripts are not installed on the Kindle. They are used to provide you with the Mobi equivalent of your Kindle's serial number so you can read DRMd books, that you acquired legally, on your Kindle.


Exactly and that is the only use mobileread allowed its members to openly discuss.

The fact that the information provided by the first script could be misused (again one would need tools not linked to or promoted by mobileread) and Amazon opening access to non-Kindle owners is what I believed led to the action.

Targeting mobileread and shutting off the ability for Kindle owners to buy/borrow from other sources is what the outcry is about. Not Amazon's desire to stem illegal distribution of copyrighted books. Because the specific purpose of the scripts was to allow Kindle owners to read legally obtained content from other sources without removing the DRM. So many see it as Amazon's attempt to eliminate competitive sources for books (although I am not convinced that was the root cause, it does have that effect).

By addressing form factor complaints with the K2, I saw many Sony advocates now considering the Kindle. Unfortunately, they have now lost many of those converts as well as many hardcore Kindle advocates (as I mentioned, Sony is open to more formats including library drm'd pdfs).


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## kindlevixen (Jan 13, 2009)

Boston, thank you for the thorough and well said summary. It was helpful.



> Amazon themselves provide a way for you to get non-Amazon content on your Kindle! Do I really need the script at all if I can send my non-Kindle eBooks to the email address they gave me? Add to that the various free (and legal) software available to convert documents to Kindle format, and none of those places got takedown notices...


I thought this was for PDFs and things like that.... can you send them books downloaded from the library and have it effectively converted and sent to your Kindle? I was not aware that was possible.


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

Ann Von Hagel said:


> O.K. folks. Let's not get carried away. Kindleboards does not, and never has, condoned discussions of any sort relating to ways to hack the Kindle's DRM.


Have to correct you, Ann: Kindlefix.py by itself does NOT "hack" the Kindle's DRM.

In fact, the DRM is *kept* on the file.

In the case of library books (which is what I use it for), you download a Mobi book from your library and then use Kindlefix.py to get your Kindle to recognize it. The DRM is still there, and the book will actually *stop working* on your Kindle after 21 days - similar to having to return a physical book to a library.


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## Kind (Jan 28, 2009)

So Amazon's agents are everywhere and watching.


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## Boston (Nov 7, 2008)

It is a "hack" in the sense that it did slightly modify the actual DRM code in the document so it could be read on the Kindle (and only on the Kindle for which the document was specifically purchased/borrowed).   

However, as stated, it did not remove the DRM or allow illegal distribution of DRM'd material.  
Which is why mobileread allowed it and why the attack on the board's actions seems misplaced.


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## Raiden333 (Feb 13, 2009)

To play devil's advocate, think of the console video game model. The game Dead Space is out for both the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3. If someone released a hack that let a Playstation 3 copy of Dead Space to work on the Xbox, then even though you're playing the exact same game, you can bet that Microsoft would be up in arms and try to stop it.


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## MonaSW (Nov 16, 2008)

An excellent and thorough post Boston!



> The outcry you hear is from many Kindle owners who used this not to distribute but as a means to getting non-Amazon material onto their Kindle. They see it as a move by Amazon to tie them to the Amazon store. Although this may not have been the intent, it was a consequence. It didn't help the way Amazon did it...without all the facts straight and without explanation as to why.
> 
> I love my Kindle; however, I do know that the more restrictive it gets and the more open other eReaders become (Sony allows ADEPT Pdfs used by libraries as well as their own standard), the more I will question sticking with the Kindle.


And I agree 100%. I think Amazon could make a lot more money and be more community friendly by getting rid if DRM.


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## Boston (Nov 7, 2008)

Raiden333 said:


> To play devil's advocate, think of the console video game model. The game Dead Space is out for both the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3. If someone released a hack that let a Playstation 3 copy of Dead Space to work on the Xbox, then even though you're playing the exact same game, you can bet that Microsoft would be up in arms and try to stop it.


Yes, its a good analogy but if Microsoft suddenly prevented you from buying/borrowing/renting a game from anyone but them directly, don't you think there would be a similar outcry? People would think twice about buying an Xbox versus a PS3 that would allow more freedom of choice.

I am not against DRM if that's what it takes to get the publishing world on board. I just wish there were some common standard..but realize we're still in the pioneer days just like when it was VHS vs Betamax. Its the price of early adoption of any technology.

I DO have a problem with someone telling me who and where I have to buy from. I like competition and Amazon has always had my business because of price/availability..and it should remain as such. Not because they lock me into their store because I bought a Kindle (btw- I never bought an iPod either and opted for a PMP which plays more formats )


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

Raiden333 said:


> To play devil's advocate, think of the console video game model. The game Dead Space is out for both the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3. If someone released a hack that let a Playstation 3 copy of Dead Space to work on the Xbox, then even though you're playing the exact same game, you can bet that Microsoft would be up in arms and try to stop it.


This is an interesting analogy but not entirely accurate to the situation.

Amazon *owns* Mobipocket. The library e-books I'm downloading are Mobi files. The script allows me to get those files to work on my Kindle for the duration of the library's "checkout" period (21 days, in this case).


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## Raiden333 (Feb 13, 2009)

CS said:


> This is an interesting analogy but not entirely accurate to the situation.
> 
> Amazon *owns* Mobipocket. The library e-books I'm downloading are Mobi files. The script allows me to get those files to work on my Kindle for the duration of the library's "checkout" period (21 days, in this case).


Ah, I did not know Amazon owned Mobi. That changes it. Thanks.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Amazon owns Mobipocket but at present, there seems to be very little integration of the two companies/services. You can't read books purchased from Mobipocket on the Kindle (without the script that is being discussed here, that is). But you'd think that Mobipocket would support a Kindle version. So far, no.

L


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## Boston (Nov 7, 2008)

Not only does Amazon own mobipocket...mobi is the same as azw (which the native Kindle drm format).  The minor DRM difference is what the script fixed.

So one could argue that if Amazon's intent wasn't trying to restrict you from buying elsewhere, supporting the mobi format on the Kindle would only require a small software update.  In fact, that might be a good way for them to resolve this matter if inclined.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Boston said:


> So one could argue that if Amazon's intent wasn't trying to restrict you from buying elsewhere, supporting the mobi format on the Kindle would only require a small software update. In fact, that might be a good way for them to resolve this matter if inclined.


Good point. Let's hope they think of it (or read the boards here...LOL).

L


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## VictoriaP (Mar 1, 2009)

I just think this was a bad move on Amazon's part.  They can't possibly have not known about the workaround as it's been freely published for over a year.  Now, just when Kindle is getting so much positive publicity, they shoot themselves in the foot by locking things down even further.

For me, the script was all about being able to read library books.  Which, I suppose from Amazon's point of view, is utter heresy--most people aren't the rabid re-readers that I am.  If I discover a library book that I love, I'm sure to buy my own copy, and all the sequels if it's a series.  Sampling is great, but it's not enough sometimes to tell if I want to read something.  I was looking forward to being able to get what I'd term "extended samples" from the library.

I also do a fair amount of research into various subjects; again, those library books that I find of value are quickly duplicated into my home library (now in paper or Kindle).  And guess where I buy all of those?  Hint....it's not my local Barnes & Noble.


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

Plus, I'm not sure about other people's libraries, but the selection of Mobi books at *my* library is less than 100 - hardly a threat to Amazon's bottom line.

My library also offers PDFs, but there's no way to get those on Kindle (that I know of). They even require a special Adobe program to run - Adobe Digital Editions. When I download those book files, they don't even download as PDFs (even though that's what they are) - they download as ebx files, which I guess is some weird format that the Adobe Digital program translates into a PDF.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Libraries are important to book sales too.  Even in digital form, a library must purchase rights for the number of "copies" that it expects to need to loan out.  They will have more copies of best sellers than they will of others.  I've been on a waiting list to check out digital library books, just as I have for paper books.

Betsy


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## kevindorsey (Mar 4, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Libraries are important to book sales too. Even in digital form, a library must purchase rights for the number of "copies" that it expects to need to loan out. They will have more copies of best sellers than they will of others. I've been on a waiting list to check out digital library books, just as I have for paper books.
> 
> Betsy


Why are libraries important for book sales?


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## MonaSW (Nov 16, 2008)

kevindorsey said:


> Why are libraries important for book sales?


For one, if I really like I book I read at the library, I might buy it and recommend it to friends.


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## ak rain (Nov 15, 2008)

libraries help create the next gen of readers 
Sylvia


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## MonaSW (Nov 16, 2008)

ak rain said:


> libraries help create the next gen of readers
> Sylvia


No kidding. My school library (many moons ago) let me take as many books as I wanted every week to read even though I read more than the weekly take out limit.


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## arshield (Nov 17, 2008)

People who regularly checkout books from Libraries are also more likely to buy books, on average.  So Libraries actually encourage reading, which encourages sales.  It is similar to illegal music file sharing in the way that people (on average) that illegally share music are also the highest (on average) purchaser of legal music.  It is about the sampling of new material that leads to future sales.  This has been shown in study after study among music and I am sure would be true about ebooks as well.

What this comes down to for me is the legal abuse that the DMCA by large companies.  The DMCA because of poor structure of the law and the bad precedents that have been made so far is being used to preserve monopoly power much more than intellectual property.  There is no way inserting a short piece of code into a printer cartridge should be covered by the DMCA.  But courts have said that is it, so printer ink costs hundreds if not thousands of dollars a gallon because it is a DMCA violation for generic cartridge makers to make compatible printer cartridges.  There is no real reason for that short piece of code in the cartridge other than the ability block others from selling compatible cartridges.

Right now Amazon has the largest catalog of books and most often the best prices.  But if they keep it up, people will start reacting to them as they did to Apple.  Most people still buy music at Itunes, but it was the outcry of those in the know that forced Apple to open up their store.  I don't believe that DRM in and of itself is wrong.  I personally have been very happy with the structure of Audible.com's DRM (ironically owned by Amazon).  I have never been prevented from using my Aubible books on the device that I wanted to use it on.  I have to get on the phone with Audible about once every two years to have them clean out my licenses, but it they are very easy to work with.  If Amazon learns from Audible how to do DRM right, or learns from the MP3 music store how to do non-DRM content things will be just fine.


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

I try to be the optimist (where is that post that I stated Amazon was SURE to implement folders in K2), and once again will try to direct a ray of sunshine on this issue.

Maybe Amazon plans on opening up MobiPocket to the Kindle? The programmers are working on it as we speak and it will be tied to our Amazon accounts.

Aside from that, I find it AMAZING that due to the controversy, now you can find the hack AND instructions super easy. Why didn't Amazon go after the sites that actually host the hack rather than a serious non-culprit? MobileRead's rebuttal email to J. Bezos is awesome - http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42149


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