# Expectations.



## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I've tried two authors here in the last day, and I have to say it's been rough going. You can see my comments on one of the stories in the Erotica 2 thread. I figured if I commented specifically on the other author's story, people would ask me how many brooms I plan on receiving for Christmas.  The second book was filled with plot holes, there were typos, it would have worked better with a different start, a major "clue" was dropped in a way that was too obvious, and the audience for the book was a little unclear. 

The question I'm asking here is if I'm expecting too much. I know non-professional efforts should get more leeway, but can a self-published book approach satisfactory to those who expect more polish? Should I just chill and accept that this is just a hobby for some folks? The problem is that I don't want to do reviews that read like writing lessons -- considering I have my own issues.  And that means, reading books that have no possibility of garnering a real review wastes my time. At the same time, I wonder if anyone IS giving the writers honest feedback. 

I only know the expectations I have for myself when I write. I'm not going to show anything to people until it's right, posts on message boards not withstanding, and I assume that anyone who's charging money for their work feels the same. That leads me to believe that they aren't getting enough feedback to know they aren't ready. 

So, authors, are these stories just experimentations? Reviewers, are you always honest? What are the expectations?


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Just as in the non-independent publishing world, it's all hit or miss.  That's what makes the kindle sample function so useful, you can get a sample (usually the first chapter) of a book without comitting yourself to buying the whole book.

I've had better luck than it sounds like you have with independants.  Of the 20 or so I've gotten, there's only been a couple that I've disliked.

My biggest suggestion is to check out the kindle author threads and see feedback from other readers here.  

And don't give up, remember, it takes a lot of oyster shucking to find a pearl.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Mine aren't experiments but I know there are still flaws.  My wridding is gettin bedder but thres alwas room to be gooder.  Man of Steel is fifteen years old but when I rewrote it last year I was horrified at what I thought passed for a decent novel back then.  It might still blow but it's a lot better than when it was born.

I don't think you're expecting too much at all.

edit:  Great question, I think.


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## Karen_McQ (Aug 9, 2009)

Interesting post, Michelle. Personally, I take my writing very seriously and expect that I'll be judged by the same standards used for traditionally published books. My guess is that most of the other independent authors feel the same way. I have been lucky in that I've had the benefit of a great critique group, one of whom used to be a copy editor and another who is annoyingly picky about plot points. That kind of feedback is invaluable and not always easy to find. 

I agree with scarlet, use the sample function and the book description to help narrow down your picks and I think you'll find some pearls.


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## Karen_McQ (Aug 9, 2009)

daveconifer said:


> thres alwas room to be gooder.


Too funny, Dave!

I think I'm going to post this above my computer.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I think editors aren't valued enough. At least folks who'll really lay it out for the writer. The internet is tough though, and communities often have the unspoken rule about only sharing the nice stuff. Either that, or they're free-for-alls. There has to be a place where writers can hear the truth from readers who're brave enough to be honest. It's not about being mean for the sake of being mean, but about giving writers who want to self-publish the tough love they need, but might not be getting elsewhere. 

I say this as someone who has always had people who'll tell me what works and what doesn't. I want that for all writers!


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

We have a few (myself included) volunteer beta-readers here.  But realize, not all writers can be self-critical and some (we've had a couple here) cannot take any criticism.  Remember, there are A LOT of people who write, and you are going to get some bad with the good.  Don't let yourself get discouraged, you have every right to expect good writing. Also, don't equate low cost with bad writing, some of the cheaper indie books have been better than the expensive ones, since it's seemed to me that the authors who insist that their writing is worth more money are the ones who don't want to hear criticism.  Just my experience, yours is always subject to different outcomes.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

My experience with indie authors on the Kindle has been similar, in the most part, to my experience picking up paper books by unknown authors.  (And I'm talking about indie Kindle books I've found throughout the web, not just Amazon or KB authors.)  Some have been very very good, some have been okay, some were not good at all.  There have been a couple books that I sampled that seemed as if the author had awakened and decided to write a book and then published it without any critical thought.  Made me very happy for the sample feature.  

Most of the indie authors that I've had any kind of contact with have been here at KindleBoards, and I've been very impressed with the professionalism and willingness to take honest feedback that most of them have exhibited.

My expectations of the indie authors are no less than those for mainstream authors.  I will note that many of the indie authors I've sampled seem to be new authors; just as for new "mainstream" authors (or for quilters), I would expect them to get better at their craft as they work.

Betsy


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I've been involved with erotica writers for years. Wow, that sounds more tawdry than I'd meant. It's my experience that most writers can't handle criticism. I learned it by stepping back and evaluating what was being said to me when a friend edited me in Word. If you take each comment on its own merits, rather just seeing it as a sea of red, usually suggestions are both minor and helpful. I think writers fear losing control, giving up their work to someone else. In the end though? It still has the author's voice, just more polished. 

Shiny!

Still, egos are fragile in the beginning. Comments feel like attacks. Any criticism is tantamount to being called unworthy or a hack. I don't think many readers are comfortable being honest anyhow, particularly if they don't write. They don't feel they have a voice in the process. 

**** 
Interesting, Madame Quilter! 

I have a ton of books from writers here, just haven't read them. I had an impulse to devote December to the writers here, as a present, but just trying to find stories I can actually review. I'm striving for a top 1000 reviewer tag by the end of the year and so I need to actually write some.  Maybe I should save the project for January.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

MichelleR said:


> It's my experience that most writers can't handle criticism. I learned it by stepping back and evaluating what was being said to me when a friend edited me in Word. If you take each comment on its own merits, rather just seeing it as a sea of red, usually suggestions are both minor and helpful.


It's very similar to the art quilt world. I belonged to a critique group (that recently disbanded, gotta find a new one, although I can use KB for that, too!) and it's rough to hear bad things about your baby. And then when you send it to a judged show, whoa! It can be a shock. But you gotta learn to have a tough shell and an open mind at the same time. And that your relatives are not necessarily your best critics (although my parents would have been pretty good book critics if that had been the field I went into).

Betsy


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

I expect a book to be well-written and typo-free, no matter how it is published. If an author publishes schlock, s/he deserves to get skewered.

When I got 99% of my books from the library, if they were poorly written I just returned them.

Now that I read almost exclusively on my Kindle, and we can sample, I always read the entire sample prior to buying. I've been fooled a few times by a sample that was more promising than the rest of the book. While I don't often review anything on the boards, I have written several reviews on Amazon for books I've read on my Kindle, and many of them were not kind.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

pidgeon92 said:


> I expect a book to be well-written and typo-free, no matter how it is published. If an author publishes schlock, s/he deserves to get skewered.


This is pretty much my stance on the topic.

My blog is filled with reviews of Indie books, and I review them as if they were commercially published.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

The sentiments in the original post are a lot of why I price my stuff as low as I can (free, if possible).  I'm honestly not sure if anything I write is anything better than an experiment and it makes me feel better if it doesn't set anybody back too much.  It literally helps me sleep at night.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Ms. Adept, 
I know you have high standards and I appreciate that about you when I stumble across your reviews. We're also currently pretty evenly ranked on Amazon


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

daveconifer said:


> The sentiments in the original post are a lot of why I price my stuff as low as I can (free, if possible). I'm honestly not sure if anything I write is anything better than an experiment and it makes me feel better if it doesn't set anybody back too much. It literally helps me sleep at night.


Okay, since you've commented here twice, do you think the second book mentioned is yours?


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## Nathan (Nov 13, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> I've been involved with erotica writers for years. Wow, that sounds more tawdry than I'd meant. It's my experience that most writers can't handle criticism.


yeah, no one wants to be told they're horrible in the sack...uh, wait a second....what were we talking about?


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> Okay, since you've commented here twice, do you think the second book mentioned is yours?


I can't lie, it crossed my mind! Although the part about the broom sticks threw me.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Okay, I just made true the acronym LOL, Nathan.


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## sierra09 (Jun 20, 2009)

I usually hold indie writers to the same standards as mainstream though I've paid full price for hardcovers that if I had seen all the errors in it before hand I probably wouldn't have.    Though if I read a preview on say Lulu or CS and there are huge stand-out errors instead of posting it I'll sometimes PM the author. I've probably done that maybe three times and usually that's been on Lulu.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

daveconifer said:


> I can't lie, it crossed my mind! Although the part about the broom sticks threw me.


The broomstick line had to be with my being a witch, seemingly unable to be nice.

The book was eBully. I liked some things about it, but had enough issues that they would be the bulk of the review. RedAdept gave it a three, but I would give it a two because of the accumulation of issues. I think the idea was really good though.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Nathan said:


> yeah, no one wants to be told they're horrible in the sack...uh, wait a second....what were we talking about?


Thanks Nathan, I need a good laugh. And that fits right in with dave's "bedder" comment.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> The broomstick line had to be with my being a witch, seemingly unable to be nice.
> 
> The book was eBully. I liked some things about it, but had enough issues that they would be the bulk of the review. RedAdept gave it a three, but I would give it a two because of the accumulation of issues. I think the idea was really good though.


Two stars is two more than I had when I got out of bed this morning!


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

daveconifer said:


> Two stars is two more than I had when I got out of bed this morning!


Would you like me to review it on Amazon then?


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## Nathan (Nov 13, 2009)

Hey MichelleR, can I pay you a dollar NOT to read my book


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience. There are very many positives to a world where authors are free to publish their own works and allow the cream to rise to the top... but one of the downsides is that there will be some books put out there that have no business being sold as finished, professional products.

I can only speak for myself here, but personally I think you should hold indie authors to the same standards as any other book. If an author wants to sell a book and take your money and, more importantly, your time to read it, the author has a responsibility to produce something worth reading. The book should be 99% free of grammatical mistakes, the plot should make sense, the characters should be well developed, etc. You don't sound like the type to skewer someone over a typo or two, but when a book is infested with typos and mistakes, it's not ready for sale. And some people who have written books are not really "authors."

Anyway, I would encourage you to maintain your high standards and to be fully honest in your reviews (even if they're critical). I know it's easier said than done. You don't want to be mean. And my mom also taught me that "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." But I'd rather hear the honest truth. If my stuff isn't good enough, if I need more editing, or if I'm just not cut out to be an author, it's better to know the truth. Being an author is a tough gig, with lots of work for almost no pay, pennies per hour for most of us. In the long run, I think you do both readers AND authors a great service by being 100% honest with them. Maybe you can save them some time and frustration down the road.

Just my opinion, others may feel differently. A novel is a very personal thing, and a tough review WILL hurt someone who devoted lots of time to a book. But I think it's better for us in the long run. Anyone who has read my stuff, please feel free to fire away, 100% honest, good and bad.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Nathan said:


> Hey MichelleR, can I pay you a dollar NOT to read my book


Nah, now I'm reading it for sure!


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Michelle,
Since purchasing my K2 in February I have read far more "Indie" writers than I knew exited before.
And in the first batch I found a couple books that I did not even finish (that bad).
But for the most part, I have found the Indie authors to be really good.
A partial list - choose any of their titles: C.S. Marks (archer here), Mike Hicks (kreelanwarrior here), RJKeller, K.A. Thompson (thumper here), Jeff Hepple, Carolyn Kephart, or Sierra09 (she has fixed the misspellings), and Boyd Morrison (when his new publisher makes his stuff available again).  
I recommend all of these authors and they are all registered members here at KB.

Just sayin.....


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

David Derrico said:


> I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience. There are very many positives to a world where authors are free to publish their own works and allow the cream to rise to the top... but one of the downsides is that there will be some books put out there that have no business being sold as finished, professional products.
> 
> I can only speak for myself here, but personally I think you should hold indie authors to the same standards as any other book. If an author wants to sell a book and take your money and, more importantly, your time to read it, the author has a responsibility to produce something worth reading. The book should be 99% free of grammatical mistakes, the plot should make sense, the characters should be well developed, etc. You don't sound like the type to skewer someone over a typo or two, but when a book is infested with typos and mistakes, it's not ready for sale. And some people who have written books are not really "authors."
> 
> ...


I used to become unhinged over any typos in professionally published books -- this is before I began writing. I understand all too well how mistakes can occasionally slip through. Because I'm aware of that, I'm going to be a little more forgiving with indie books, knowing there are even fewer safeguards. However, there does come a point when my opinion will be lowered, and I'll be irritated. A reader wants to trust a writer, believe that they're in capable storytelling hands.

Readers and writers are partners. Their mutual love of the written words means they also have mutual respect for the role each plays. Any writer who thinks it's all about unthinking adoration and proclamations of genius from The Unwashed is useless. Any reader who thinks that a writer is to be treated like a organ grinder's monkey -- and I've seen that too -- is not honoring the partnership either. In this time of higher connectivity, I'd add an obligation to occasionally communicate with a writer if the means to do so occurs.

When I review a professionally published book I get to discuss the story a little more. My disagreements with how writer handled the story are usually minor, and just a difference of opinion -- strictly how the book worked or didn't work for me. The professionalism carries the day, and it most books I read -- even ones that bother me -- end up with at least three stars. With indie books, at least so far, I feel my review would be more of a lecture on writing. That doesn't feel like my place in that venue. It's like, I have to rattle off the mistakes before I can discuss the merits.

I agree with the sentiment of honesty, but I don't want to publicly skewer -- at least, it might feel like a skewing to the author -- a story simply because it wasn't ready for prime time. On the other hand, as much as my heart is with writers, I also have a loyalty to readers. It's not fair if the reviews are unfairly represented by folks who are fans or friends. I don't necessarily feel comfortable being the first person to tell someone who has invested a lot of time that others have possibly been less honest or deliberately silent.

It's probably a Gemini thang. 



geoffthomas said:


> Michelle,
> Since purchasing my K2 in February I have read far more "Indie" writers than I knew exited before.
> And in the first batch I found a couple books that I did not even finish (that bad).
> But for the most part, I have found the Indie authors to be really good.
> ...


I think "Trixie" is holding books by most those folks!


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Sorry for my sudden absence.  I'm back in from the ledge now.  Michelle, I appreciate that you took the time to do this.  I agree that tough love is best when it comes to improving.  I'm going to fire up the kindle, download the latest upload, and see if I can fix this thing.

It's a complicated plot and I drew a lot of diagrams trying to help me remember who knew what, who didn't know what, and when they did or didn't know it.  I could easily have screwed this up.

Thanks, much appreciated...


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

daveconifer said:


> Sorry for my sudden absence. I'm back in from the ledge now. Michelle, I appreciate that you took the time to do this. I agree that tough love is best when it comes to improving. I'm going to fire up the kindle, download the latest upload, and see if I can fix this thing.
> 
> It's a complicated plot and I drew a lot of diagrams trying to help me remember who knew what, who didn't know what, and when they did or didn't know it. I could easily have screwed this up.
> 
> Thanks, much appreciated...


I'm going to put my comments under spoilers:



Spoiler



I had an issue with plausibility. It seemed like the adult character was all sorts of irresponsible. I'm not sure that Scott would be allowed to work on this. The possibility of police involvement was not mentioned until close to the end, when I think that -- because most readers will think it -- should be addressed early on. Scott really did tell every one who crossed his path what he was doing.  The clue as to the responsible party for the Carly stalking really was given quite early, but the dialog stood out too much (this character has a different name because...) and screamed this is *significant, very significant. *

Also, Tom is the computer guy, but the IP angle is really late in the story. Most people would have went there a lot earlier, even the less computer savvy.

The ending with Carly felt wrong, because the character really was presented too much as sugar wouldn't melt in her mouth, and large chunks of the book were from her POV. If she's the culprit of the original incident, and has no remorse or moments of reflection/learning, then she's pretty disturbed, and there was no evidence of that. Better, imo, if that's the ending you want to have never had it from her POV for the surprise to be plausible.

This is the part where I step over the line from reader to writer, which means it could be overstepping. If it were my story, I would have Scott be a legitimate student, albeit a troubled one, who has a crush on Carly. I would have him take it upon himself to help her out. I'd have the Tom character combined with the Scott character. The vice principal would be no big fan of the Scott character, possibly suspecting him, but figuring out his true role toward the end. Carly would either be a truly sympathetic character or a villain. In the former case, she would either be uninvolved in the original situation, or truly remorseful. In the latter case which would eliminate her POV, and be told from Scott's perspective, the original reveal could exist, but with greater impact. Scott would get his heart broken. If he remains a foster kid, there's still an opportunity for the VP to foster him. The more this is kept out of adult world, the more the characters can do without a reader expecting adult standards with ethics and law-abiding. The reveal of the new stalker could be the same, but the initial clue I mentioned would be slightly more hidden as it would come out when Scott snooped with a lot of other details that would be red herrings.

See what a pain I am? I'll go stand in the corner.


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## Tanner Artesz (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi Michelle

As an indie-writer, I agree with you standards. If you were to review my books, I would expect honesty. I can't grow as an author if I don't know where the growth needs to take place. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. To me, it means that someone has taken the time to share in the adventure and cared enough about it and me to share their reactions to it.

Good luck finding the 'pearls' amid the oysters. There are quite a few out there. Those mentioned earlier in the discussion are many of the ones I would recommend.

Tanner


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> When I review a professionally published book I get to discuss the story a little more. My disagreements with how writer handled the story are usually minor, and just a difference of opinion -- strictly how the book worked or didn't work for me. The professionalism carries the day, and it most books I read -- even ones that bother me -- end up with at least three stars. With indie books, at least so far, I feel my review would be more of a lecture on writing. That doesn't feel like my place in that venue. It's like, I have to rattle off the mistakes before I can discuss the merits.


I find that the writing (spelling, grammar, POV, style) has to be at or above a certain level in order for the reader to even be able to appreciate the story. If the writing falls below this threshold, it's too distracting for the reader to become immersed in the story and even consider how good or bad the story is. I consider it a prerequisite for a good novel, a necessary part of the equation. If the writing is of a high enough level, then the reader can go to the next level and consider the story, plot, foreshadowing, character development, morals and themes, etc.

I hear some people say that they aren't that hot at grammar but that they "tell a great story." If they're lacking a fairly high level of writing skill (and aren't willing to work to get there), then novels are not for them. There are other ways to tell stories (screenplays, poetry, music, etc.).


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Hi Michelle,

I have checked out the text.  You are right -- there are too many typos.  I found that each chapter had either one or two, 99% of which were omitted words.  I also misspelled "chauffeur" as "chauffer" (Microsoft word let it slide because there is such a word, that famous editing mistake of which I'm often guilty).  No doubt there are a few more in there, there always are.  Even one error is too many, although it's hardly the editing disaster that it's being made out to be.  

You are right about the different last name thing too.  That was clumsily done.  The error would have been even more egregious had this book been cast as a mystery but even so it can be feathered better.

It's my humble and fallible opinion what you are referring to as  'plot holes' has more to do with 'suspension of disbelief.'  When I read something I merely require that it not be inconceivable to accept it.  My all-time favorite novel, Kane and Abel, is fraught with unlikely coincidences but it doesn't diminish from my enjoyment of it.  Come on, two bitter enemies enlist in different branches of the military but find themselves face to face, one gravely injured, on a European battlefield?   A man survives a leap from a helicopter without a parachute in one of Dan Brown's recent books, an event that I find hard to accept, but I chose to accept it.  You have every right to describe major elements of the eBully plot as implausible and you may be right.  I just don't think 'plot hole' is an accurate description and so far nobody else has described it that way (well, that's not true, one agent did).  

About the ending -- I failed completely on that.  The point of making Carly the original ebully was to illustrate the reality of the cyberbullying problem.  Most of the pain is because the victim doesn't know who the perpetrator is.  It's often somebody close by, and also somebody who they would not have suspected.  Many of us take on a completely different personna when online anonymously, and that was the point that I failed to make.  I plan on fixing that if I can.  Thanks for noticing.  Red Adept had the same reaction and I lost a star for it.  I wish I'd gotten that across.  Absolutely nobody understands what I was trying to say because I said it poorly.

Anyway, I'm going to stay out of this thread now.  It just seems unhealthy to do otherwise.  I appreciate your critique and I think every point you made was valid.  Thanks...

...dave


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I think it's a terrific idea for a story, just a wonderful concept, and that's why I selected it. You deserve the credit for it. 

I actually did find some of the things nearly inconceivable. I'm down with willing suspension of disbelief, but the more things that are plausible -- except in a fantasy setting -- the easier it is to get there. Most readers go into the process wanting to buy into the story, and I'm no different in that regard. I wasn't looking for reasons to be skeptical. I call them plot holes, because I couldn't take myself to a place where several of the events would seem plausible. I know there are books on the market with hard-to-swallow events, but a writer can finagle a lot if enough of the other elements come together. 

You have a point about the anonymity of cyber bullies, and how that could make the situation extra painful. You also have a point that people can be very different on the internet than they are online. It's not that you're wrong about any of that, and I think you did get the point across earlier, both in showing Carly's anguish and in what the vice principal said when Scott blew off the eBullying as no big deal. The problem with the ending wasn't that your point wasn't well-taken, but rather it wasn't consistent with the character as presented, and -- because we spent a lot of time in her POV -- it didn't seem to play fair. 

Whether or not you return to the thread, I want to thank you for the story, which was interesting to me, and for taking the time to respond.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

I will say with all sincerity that if a reader thinks it implausible, it's implausible.  I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck.  

I have learned here!

edit: I think I got carried away with having a 'twist' at the end without setting the stage enough for that twist.  I learned again.

Thanks.  This stung but I'm glad we did this


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## J Dean (Feb 9, 2009)

Nothing wrong with having high expectations, as long as they're realistic.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

My expectations of my writing is extremely high, but no matter how high its been, it can always be higher, because I love readers and reader expectation is even higher still. My books try to engage the reader, and my earliest published book have typos and stuff (and are being relaunched), however, they have won high marks from readers (and comments about the publishing faults). With each book I strive to improve and my next book out, #14, I'm striving for zero errors (fat chance, we're all thinking), but I've delayed its publication by 2 months just to focus on the publishing side. The writing and reader engagement side meet my expectations, and the editing side is about 95% there (5 more weeks should get me there). 

Ed Patterson


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## Nathan (Nov 13, 2009)

I think you should have high expectations MichelleR.  You are not only investing what ever price a story costs, but the time it takes to read it.

I think indie authors each have their own motivations, skill sets, and resources.  Speaking for myself, I have already learned a lot in just the 2 1/2 weeks since I posted my story.  First, I learned that you can't pull it back once you blast it out    But most importantly, I learned that I would have made (and am) a horrible editor.  I think that the ease of electronic publishing worked against me in this regard.  I have received some nice and critical feedback already (I loved the story...but you NEED an editor).  Ironically, it was only after I posted the story that I had people offer to help me on the editorial side.  My circle of peeps didn't volunteer before...and I work with stinking editors!!!!!

And that gets into a little bit of motivation and ambition on the author side.  Personally, I wrote a story, had a lot of my colleagues say they enjoyed it, and thought up the crazy idea to share it with a broader audience.  Monetary or fame recognition was not in the cards, and still is not a motivation for me.  Perhaps if that was my goal I would have been more patient, diligent with finding the adequate resources to clean it up to professional standards.

That does not excuse the launch into the market of a less than acceptable product.  Its a learning process. 

I recently got a DTB version of my story made through Amazon for my brother who is shipping off to Afghanistan.  It wasn't until I looked at the words on the page in that format that the errors really popped out to me.  Stuff I would have liked to change, word substitutions that I had never seen before, and what not....a lot of what nots!

I don't think it is a writer's intention to just shovel out garbage.  Mine wasn't.

But regardless of motivations, skill sets, and resources, if someone puts themselves out there, a reader has an absolute right to react, and be critical.

Anyway...a little stream of consciousness for you


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## TC Beacham (Nov 23, 2009)

We're at an interesting moment in publishing. It's easier for authors to get their books out into the world, and that means not everything will be great. But traditional publishers are so desperate to make money that they publish anything a celebrity can manage to put on paper, and that means not everything will be great. 

I like the idea of readers deciding what they like, rather than the bean counters at publishing houses deciding what will make the most money for them. There's something very democratic and liberating about it!


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Nathan,
You accidentally stumbled upon something a lot of writers do -- change the font, background, or formatting in order to make the eye see the story in a new way. It's a good way to find mistakes! As the tag for NBC's PSAs notes: The More You Know!


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## Nathan (Nov 13, 2009)

MichelleR said:


> Nathan,
> You accidentally stumbled upon something a lot of writers do -- change the font, background, or formatting in order to make the eye see the story in a new way. It's a good way to find mistakes! As the tag for NBC's PSAs notes: The More You Know!


No doubt. It was eye opening, depressing, sickening....embarrassing. I know I'm not brain damaged, but man, it sure looks like it on some pages. I pulled the story while it is being worked over by a friend of mine who obviously felt bad enough about it to offer help.

The biggest guffaw was word substitution. I don't know if that is because of the notion that you only pick up the first and last letter of a word while reading (you know that trick?) or not...but I swear someone else put those in.


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> There have been a couple books that I sampled that seemed as if the author had awakened and decided to write a book and then published it without any critical thought.


I have to admit that I've read a few books where I wanted to beat the author senseless.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

JimC1946 said:


> I have to admit that I've read a few books where I wanted to *beat the author senseless*.


I've read a few where I'm pretty sure someone already had. . . .


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## Thumper (Feb 26, 2009)

There have been some stupid mistakes in my books; words inverted, formatting that dropped from the original ms when it was poured into the final layout... it's all frustrating when someone points it out (and someone has), especially when your work has passed through the hands of more than one editor. 

But, editors aren't infallible. Even those who think they are.

Unless a book is riddled with mistakes, as long as I enjoy the story I can overlook them. I'll allow for more formatting errors in an ebook than I will a print book simply because of all the things that get lost in coding, but overall I'm fairly forgiving. I might be laughing, but as long as I can fall back into the story, I can forgive them.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Nathan said:


> Hey MichelleR, can I pay you a dollar NOT to read my book


I'll pay you $5.00 American money not to read my books, Miss MichelleR. (I thought Miss RedAdept made me nervous!) It's like I've said a number of times "My God, Jim, I'm a writer, not an editor!" or was that someone else that said that? Oh, well, never mind. I can only say that my stuff is as edited as it's ever going to be and I can only hope that it pleases someone, somewhere, sometime... *fades off into the ether*


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Brendan Carroll said:


> I'll pay you $5.00 American money not to read my books, Miss MichelleR. (I thought Miss RedAdept made me nervous!) It's like I've said a number of times "My God, Jim, I'm a writer, not an editor!" or was that someone else that said that? Oh, well, never mind. I can only say that my stuff is as edited as it's ever going to be and I can only hope that it pleases someone, somewhere, sometime... *fades off into the ether*


Brendan, it definitely pleases more than just someONE, someTIME. I know for a fact that it's pleased many people in many places. So stop being a fraidy cat!


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

I think if you put your work out there to be scrutinized by the public, then it's only fair to expect that they'll treat you the same as they would any other author.  We should all be held to the same standard when it comes to our writing.

I'm generally more forgiving of problems in e-books than I would be in print, simply because I've found that the process of conversion almost inevitably snarls the manuscript in ways the author didn't intend.  I don't necessarily view that sort of thing in quite as negative a light as I would in a paper book.


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## angel_b (Nov 18, 2009)

TC Beacham said:


> We're at an interesting moment in publishing. It's easier for authors to get their books out into the world, and that means not everything will be great. But traditional publishers are so desperate to make money that they publish anything a celebrity can manage to put on paper, and that means not everything will be great.
> 
> I like the idea of readers deciding what they like, rather than the bean counters at publishing houses deciding what will make the most money for them. There's something very democratic and liberating about it!


This is so very true. As an avid reader, this is the unexpected bonus of being a Kindle owner. It's like digging for buried treasure.


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## angel_b (Nov 18, 2009)

Nathan said:


> No doubt. It was eye opening, depressing, sickening....embarrassing. I know I'm not brain damaged, but man, it sure looks like it on some pages. I pulled the story while it is being worked over by a friend of mine who obviously felt bad enough about it to offer help.
> 
> The biggest guffaw was word substitution. I don't know if that is because of the notion that you only pick up the first and last letter of a word while reading (you know that trick?) or not...but I swear someone else put those in.


Nathan, I bought your book from Amazon about 20 hours ago (on the description, but mostly on your comment disclaimer - good on you!).

It's still showing as available on Amazon, just not to Australian customers, which is a bit odd.

I guess when I start reading, I'm going to have to learn to be a forgiving reader huh?


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

scarlet said:


> Brendan, it definitely pleases more than just someONE, someTIME. I know for a fact that it's pleased many people in many places. So stop being a fraidy cat!


Th...th...thank you, so much, Miss Scarlet. You know how sensitive we artists are.  I'm working hard on editing right now with two other eagle-eyes and yet... well, an author's work is from sun to sun, but an editor's work is never done (apparently!). Thanks again.


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## Meredith Sinclair (May 21, 2009)

Don't you worry Brendan! If someone smashes you or your work your fans will take care of them!  We'll SMASH them right back... we will come right back to THIS thread and PROTEST!!!    You know we will back you no matter what! You do have that in your fans... loyalty! We love you Brendan!


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Again, my most profound gratitude for your vote of confidence, Miss Meredith.  You have always been my #1 fan.  But OT, I read a story once called "Great Expectations" and I must say it was picture perfect, error free and grammatically correct from top to bottom, but it was extremely boring all the same.  I believe that we must give our work our utmost best effort and try to make it as perfect as "Great Expectations", but even more importantly, we must tell an entertaining tale or else no one will read us and entertainment is what it is all about in my case.  I have read a lot of stuff by the Indie authors represented here on the boards and some of it is extremely well written and enjoyable, some, not so much, but if the passion for writing is in the blood, then all I can say is practice makes perfect... eventually and if we do not venture to hawk our wares for all to see, then we will never know if our work is good, bad or indifferent.  It is quite painful to hear the truth sometimes, but when the praise eventually comes, then it is all the sweeter music to our weary ears.  As for Ms. MichelleR, the offer is still good:  $5.00 American money.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Wow, I'd never considered not reading to be a money making proposition.  

I'm soooooo not scary. The last 10, make it 20, books I've reviewed:

5 stars: 7 reviews

4 stars:  10 reviews 

3 stars: 3 reviews

2 stars: 0 reviews

1 star: 0 reviews

The last time I gave a book 2 stars was September 15th, David Cross' book. It was pretty bad.  I don't think I've ever given out only 1 star. Writers are safe as kittens when they're in my hands.

Safe...as...kittens. 

And I'm reading Easily Amused by Karen McQuestion right now, because she seemed confident, it sounded like an interesting book, and she didn't offer me money not to read it.


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## Nathan (Nov 13, 2009)

angel_b said:


> Nathan, I bought your book from Amazon about 20 hours ago (on the description, but mostly on your comment disclaimer - good on you!).
> 
> It's still showing as available on Amazon, just not to Australian customers, which is a bit odd.
> 
> I guess when I start reading, I'm going to have to learn to be a forgiving reader huh?


well...the trolls burned the midnight oil, and removed/fixed/tweaked/lobotomized a whopping 179 "points of suckage" from the story. A crazy 39 word substitutions!!!! and 11...yes *11* areas that had even me asking "who wrote this". There were some spots that just did not flow very well, an odd word here or there.

Because this story is like that boy/girl friend who does you wrong and then comes back with flowers saying "come on baby, I know I messed up, but give me another chance...I'll fix my ways, promise!" I am putting a coupon code here from smashwords to get it for free.

Coupon: *BY93S*
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/5969


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Nathan said:


> well...the trolls burned the midnight oil, and removed/fixed/tweaked/lobotomized a whopping 179 "points of suckage" from the story. A crazy 39 word substitutions!!!! and 11...yes *11* areas that had even me asking "who wrote this". There were some spots that just did not flow very well, an odd word here or there.
> 
> Because this story is like that boy/girl friend who does you wrong and then comes back with flowers saying "come on baby, I know I messed up, but give me another chance...I'll fix my ways, promise!" I am putting a coupon code here from smashwords to get it for free.
> 
> ...


Well, Nathan, congratulations. Since I haven't read your book, I can't agree or disagree. All I can say is that there are a number of my books that have been read a million times for editing by none other than my dear old self and every single time I read them, I make corrections. At some point an author must simply say "Basta!" or "Enough!" or "Something that translates to Enough in some familiar or unfamiliar language!" and publish the


Spoiler



damned thing warts and all


. I promise you, Mr. Nathan, if I were to read your book and judge it against my own tastes, my own writing style and my own preferences, grammatical or other, I could probably re-write it entirely and even you wouldn't recognize it. The thing is, write what you know, know what you feel and feel good about yourself!


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## angel_b (Nov 18, 2009)

Nathan said:


> well...the trolls burned the midnight oil, and removed/fixed/tweaked/lobotomized a whopping 179 "points of suckage" from the story. A crazy 39 word substitutions!!!! and 11...yes *11* areas that had even me asking "who wrote this". There were some spots that just did not flow very well, an odd word here or there.
> 
> Because this story is like that boy/girl friend who does you wrong and then comes back with flowers saying "come on baby, I know I messed up, but give me another chance...I'll fix my ways, promise!" I am putting a coupon code here from smashwords to get it for free.
> 
> ...


Ah, thanks for that Nathan. Will download the newly edited version.


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## Carol Hanrahan (Mar 31, 2009)

Even big name published authors write stuff that not everyone likes.  Be true to yourself and put out the best you can.  You'll get better.  Even the best writers don't "hit a home run" every time.  Like Helen Reddy once sang, "Keep on writing.  Don't stop writing.  You're gonna be a star someday...."  Or something like that....


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## Nathan (Nov 13, 2009)

Carol Hanrahan said:


> Even big name published authors write stuff that not everyone likes. Be true to yourself and put out the best you can. You'll get better. Even the best writers don't "hit a home run" every time. Like Helen Reddy once sang, "Keep on writing. Don't stop writing. You're gonna be a star someday...." Or something like that....


oh yeah, no discouragement here.  It is just a little vexing when you think you got it good and then post it, and then the errors reveal themselves. No worries though. You just do the best you can with what you got and keep improving.

A funny anecdote about this: I was talking about some of the email I got from people with two colleagues of mine, an acquisitions editor and a line editor, who both read the story and seemed to dig it. I told them "you should have pointed out some of the gaffs when you read it!" They said,"oh...we just assumed you'd catch it." Blah!!! Haha...oh well, with friends like these...thankfully a buddy stepped up and set me straight 

People have been talking about the text-to-speech function on kindle as a good method for spotting "oops" spots. Well, the 10 bucks it takes to get a bound copy from createspace works the same way. You really can see the gaffs jump of the page then, for sure.

I like your wisdom Brendan...funny stuff


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## ASparrow (Oct 12, 2009)

My book's been through three iterations of copy-editing and gaffs and typos still keep showing up.  It's almost as if one layer had to be removed to allow the next to be discerned. The human eye is self-correcting, which is why you can scramble every word in a sentence and still gather its meaning. I also find myself replacing in my mind the sentence I actually wrote with the image I intended to portray. Neither bodes well for a self-editor.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

ASparrow said:


> My book's been through three iterations of copy-editing and gaffs and typos still keep showing up. It's almost as if one layer had to be removed to allow the next to be discerned. The human eye is self-correcting, which is why you can scramble every word in a sentence and still gather its meaning. I also find myself replacing in my mind the sentence I actually wrote with the image I intended to portray. Neither bodes well for a self-editor.


ASparrow, you've have described it perfectly as far as I'm concerned. Our minds get used to seeing our words and substituting what we mean, and our eyes scrutinize certain parts of the line/page while almost skipping over others. I find that if I temporarily alter the font size or somehow reshape the text, errors pop out. [edit: I think this is another way of saying what Nathan said about buying the proof copy and checking it over.]

Since I bought my Kindle I've been using the text-to-speech option while following along with my eyes to edit. It's amazing how much I find using that method. Now I'm in the process of reviewing my pre-Kindle stories with this method (thanks in large part to MichelleR's critique of eBully). I did 7 or 8 edits of those but I missed so much! I finished eBully and now I'm halfway through this tedious process for Man of Steel.

Brendan made a good point earlier. There's probably never a point where we won't pick up our ms. and want to tweak something here or there.


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