# Penguin Pulls Their Content from Kindle Library Lending--No. of Kindle library books drops substantially (MERGED)



## RDaneel54 (Sep 10, 2010)

I just did a search on kindle books at the Columbus Metro Library and the Free Library of Philadelphia.  At both sites, the number of Kindle books has dropped by approximately 2,000 volumes.

Anyone know what is going on?

How about your Overdrive library?

Dean


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I lost some too at my local library.  About 300 in my favorite genre. I don't know the overall number as I usually go to genre right away.

But I also have a card at the Philadelphia library and on there my genre still has the same amount it had yesterday.


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## NightGoat (Feb 2, 2011)

They're trying to get you to sign up for Prime and borrow books from Amazon... maybe?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Amazon Prime doesn't have anything to do though with the local libraries ebook lending.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

NightGoat said:


> They're trying to get you to sign up for Prime and borrow books from Amazon... maybe?


More likely licenses have been withdrawn by the publishers or have expired. One of the publishers has put a limit on the number of times a book can be checked out without the license being renewed.

Betsy


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## NightGoat (Feb 2, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> More likely licenses have been withdrawn by the publishers or have expired. One of the publishers has put a limit on the number of times a book can be checked out without the license being renewed.​
> Betsy


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## RDaneel54 (Sep 10, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> More likely licenses have been withdrawn by the publishers or have expired. One of the publishers has put a limit on the number of times a book can be checked out without the license being renewed.
> 
> Betsy


It's probably something like that, but there are so many that I wonder if one of the publishers had a problem with the whole idea of e-book library lending and pulled all there books. Two thousand books gone from what it was Tuesday is substantial.

Dean


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Ask at your library.  The programs are all very different.  For example at my library, there are shared books with two other libraries.  BUT my library also did a temporary licensing scheme to allow them to get certain books they did not have to share.  Basically there was enough demand (and money in the kitty at the time) that they  did a small "only ours" with some number of books.  When the money runs out or if those licenses expire, I would expect the number to possibly change.  If more money ends up in the program, maybe the number of books would actually go up.


The shared resources between 3 libraries total means that the waiting list can be quite long.

Also as Ann said, the licenses do expire and publishers can cycle some books out of the overdrive program permanently (they don't just put a book in the overdrive program and it stays there.)  So there's "Turnover."  But again, many libraries run different options, so ask.  

One thing I did learn:  If your library has a book, don't assume it will be there the next time you check.  It's not like a physical book where you can think, 'I can check that out any time I want."    If the max checkout is 12 or 24 or whatever, and it hits that, the library may or may not "renew" the license.  And the publisher may or may not renew the license!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

MariaESchneider said:


> Also as Ann said, the licenses do expire and publishers can cycle some books out of the overdrive program permanently (they don't just put a book in the overdrive program and it stays there.) So there's "Turnover." But again, many libraries run different options, so ask.


That was Betsy. 

Though I'd have said the same thing.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Uhm...My excuse is...I don't have a good excuse?


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## jbcohen (Jul 29, 2011)

At least your local library has something you want to read.  The slogan for my local library should be - What ever you want to read we don't have it, what ever you don't want to read we got.


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## lori_piper (Oct 7, 2010)

I can tell you that "The Help", which had been the most popular book at all my libraries, is gone from all five libraries that I have online access to.

It's published by Putnam, for what it's worth.


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

lori_piper said:


> I can tell you that "The Help", which had been the most popular book at all my libraries, is gone from all five libraries that I have online access to.
> 
> It's published by Putnam, for what it's worth.


It is still available at my local library as well as the Free Library of Philadelphia so I'm guessing it is a expired license issue.


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## Tara Maya (Nov 4, 2010)

This expired license model makes no sense to me.


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## kkay5 (Feb 1, 2010)

kindlegrl81 said:


> It is still available at my local library as well as the Free Library of Philadelphia so I'm guessing it is a expired license issue.


Yes, it's available, but I just looked and there wasn't a Kindle version listed. Same with at the Orange Country Library. They have it, but only in ePUB and PDF. I have noticed this with many books which is why I am keeping my Nook!


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## bkworm8it (Nov 17, 2008)

I was wondering what happened. I sent a note to the help desk because all my wish list books have been dropped from kindle not to mention all the dresden file books that I was going through. Yet the same books are still available in adobe pdf and epup.   Can we download the abobe pdf one to our kindles?  I don't get why they just pull the kindle format.


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## kkay5 (Feb 1, 2010)

bkworm8it said:


> I was wondering what happened. I sent a note to the help desk because all my wish list books have been dropped from kindle not to mention all the dresden file books that I was going through. Yet the same books are still available in adobe pdf and epup. Can we download the abobe pdf one to our kindles? I don't get why they just pull the kindle format.


I don't know why either, but I have noticed a lot of books get added without a Kindle option. Sometimes I will go back and the Kindle book as been added.

Kindles don't support Adobe DRM so you can't read the Adobe PDF on Kindles from the library.


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## bkworm8it (Nov 17, 2008)

I just got a response back from the library. They did a search as well and looked at my previous rentals and found it odd that the kindle formats have disappeared. They apparently were not informed that titles were being removed from kindle format and they are contacting overdrive to see what is up. I hope it's not a licensing issue with overdrive. I really like being able to read series on my kindle especially since with the economy I bring in less than half what I used to so I can't always buy books anymore.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Do ask at your individual libraries. I read an article (that I can't find) that said that some publishers would only allow a book to be licensed to libraries for a certain period and then they would cycle other books through overdrive.  Demand doesn't appear to play a part in it.  It reminds me of the way "specials" are run on Amazon books.  Some books constantly cycle through discount/full price/discount.  Others never see a discount.

My library does not have a large selection of books I want to read.  They do okay with cozy mysteries and other mysteries, but have very few UF.  Find out how you can request books (doesn't mean they will get them, but it never hurts to ask!)


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## Steve M (May 21, 2011)

Library books that I have previously read on my Kindle are no longer available for Kindle. Kindle books that I have on my wish list are no longer available for Kindle. The current library book I am reading on my Kindle is no longer available for Kindle.

My local small-town library *just* began offering eBooks through OverDrive last month. I was so elated I gave a (significant to me) donation to our library with the caveat that it been used towards buying Kindle books.

Something is amiss. Or it's a conspiracy. Or both.

Heads will roll.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Yep, every book I have on hold or in the wishlists on both my local and FLP library from Penguin have no more Kindle version available. Unfortunately, JD Robbs - In Death series is Penguin so I can't get them right now. I have a few books on Hold and I am on a waitlist so I hope they figure this one out before they get available. I waited so long for those books already.


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## KindleGirl (Nov 11, 2008)

I just checked my lengthy wish list at the library and some books were still there with kindle versions, others had kindle versions that disappeared. Odd thing is that if it was the license issue, wouldn't that affect all versions and not just the kindle version? The Adobe versions are still there for check-out. Lets hope it's just some kind of issue with Overdrive and it will be fixed!


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

2 days ago a book that I had had on hold became available for me to check out. When I went to get it, it was only available in Adobe EPUB or PDF. I thought maybe I had been mistaken and that it hadn't been available in Kindle format when I placed a hold. Then I read this thread. I know I had read a couple of other books in the series on my Kindle a few weeks ago - so I went and checked on the series & other books by the same author: J. R. Ward, 2 different series. And what do you know - those books that I had read a few weeks ago in Kindle format are no longer available in Kindle format! I looked up the publisher, which is Signet ............................... and what do you know - it's owned by Penguin.  
I'm thinking this is a publisher thing.

ETA: here's a question - are any Penguin books available through the Kindle Lending Library? If not, then maybe them being pulled from the public library lending system is correlated to them not participating in the the Lending Library.


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## bkworm8it (Nov 17, 2008)

Bummer Atunah - I just finished the series.. loved them but I did them on audio some through overdrive and some from what my mom got on audible but I think the majority are on overdrive. I liked the person who read them and with my limited reading time and being stuck in a car back and forth for school and clinical's I managed to get them listened (oh and during showers lol).


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## bkworm8it (Nov 17, 2008)

Yip, the Dresden files are published by Penguin. Seems like a conspiracy to me to only pull the kindle versions and not the other if it is in fact an issue with penguin.


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## Steve M (May 21, 2011)

bkworm8it said:


> Yip, the Dresden files are published by Penguin. Seems like a conspiracy to me to only pull the kindle versions and not the other if it is in fact an issue with penguin.


 I double-checked some of mine... perhaps re-title this thread _The Penguin Conspiracy_? The funny thing is, although the Kindle format is no longer available for many books through my local library link, they are still available (for the ones I checked) in Kindle format at the main OverDrive website.

What's up with that?


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Maybe Penguin doesn't want to make their books available for Kindle check out (because they hate amazon?)  The publishers have had issues with Amazon in the past and don't want to play with them and it is easy for them to specify the formats available when they work with overdrive.  It could be they have decided not to participate in Kindle lending at public libraries.  Lord can only guess what they are thinking, but they've done weird things before. 

Or it could be an innocent software glitch and the Kindle books just aren't making it through the channel, but it seems weird that they were there and now they are not.

(Caveat:  I am a writer.  I excel in massive speculation and wondering "what if."  Do not take the above speculation as anything but speculation.)


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I wont be able to turn on my wifi/3g on my Kindle now. I have 3 books from Penguin checked out at the moment, but I still have others to read first. Those books are not available for Kindle anymore. 

This sure looks like a Penguin/Amazon specific issue here. If the licenses where gone, then they would be gone for epub too. 

I have no way of reading epubs so if this doesn't get resolved soon, some of my waitlists I will have to let go. Not that I have a lack of books to read but still


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

This problem/discussion has started showing up on a thread on the Amazon Kindle boards as well (people reporting books they had wait listed and that they had checked out are now gone).  No one over there seems to know what is going on either.


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

Maybe Overdrive got hacked by that disgruntled librarian


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Perhaps this is in response to Amazon's Prime lending library. If the Publishers are upset with Amazon over that,they could be pulling their books from the Kindle side of Overdrive.


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## bkworm8it (Nov 17, 2008)

Amazon prime only lends one book a month and I can get up to 30 from my library.... Unless I miss read the amazon prime information. Sometimes I can only read one book a month when in school but there are other times, especially if the book is short, like series I manage more than one a month. 

Hopefully my library will have an answer soon as to whats going on.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

bkworm8it said:


> Amazon prime only lends one book a month and I can get up to 30 from my library.... Unless I miss read the amazon prime information. Sometimes I can only read one book a month when in school but there are other times, especially if the book is short, like series I manage more than one a month.
> 
> Hopefully my library will have an answer soon as to whats going on.


I don't suppose it would help if you told your library that there are, oh, at least 20 people on this thread counting on him/her to answer soon

No?

How about chocolate

I'll ask at my library tomorrow, but the librarian who handles the overdrive stuff is off today and tomorrow so it will be Tues before I really talk to the right person.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

bkworm8it said:


> Amazon prime only lends one book a month and I can get up to 30 from my library.... *Unless I miss read the amazon prime information.* Sometimes I can only read one book a month when in school but there are other times, especially if the book is short, like series I manage more than one a month.
> 
> Hopefully my library will have an answer soon as to whats going on.


No I believe you are right in that it is one book a month per member of Prime. But my thought was, if there are publishers who are upset about Amazon making this service available, (link here: http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/digital/content-and-e-books/article/49430-could-amazon--s-lending-library-end-in-court-.html ) They could be pulling the Kindle version from overdrive as "punishment" to Amazon.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

intinst said:


> No I believe you are right in that it is one book a month per member of Prime. But my thought was, if there are publishers who are upset about Amazon making this service available, (link here: http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/digital/content-and-e-books/article/49430-could-amazon--s-lending-library-end-in-court-.html ) They could be pulling the Kindle version from overdrive as "punishment" to Amazon.


That's what I'm thinking this might be about as well. I tried googling it last night but didn't find anything useful.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

MariaESchneider said:


> Also as Ann said, the licenses do expire and publishers can cycle some books out of the overdrive program permanently (they don't just put a book in the overdrive program and it stays there.) So there's "Turnover." But again, many libraries run different options, so ask.





Ann in Arlington said:


> That was Betsy.





MariaESchneider said:


> Uhm...My excuse is...I don't have a good excuse?


People get us confused all the time.  Some think we're the same person. I keep telling people, she's the younger one, I'm the smarter one. 

Betsy


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

I went to the Overdrive site & re-read the post announcing the availability of Kindle books; at the bottom was a name to contact for more information:
David Burleigh, OverDrive, Inc., 216-573-6886 x218
[email protected]

So I just fired off the following email:
_Dear Mr. Burleigh:
I am an avid Kindle reader and was delighted when my public library, the Albuquerque/Bernalillo County Library System (New Mexico), started providing ebooks in Kindle format for lending.
Over the past few days, across the country, Kindle readers have discovered that books that were previously available in Kindle format from our libraries are no longer available in that format.
My own experience happened on November 18. I had had a book on hold for about a week & I received a notice that it was available for check out. When I went to my library account, the only format that was available was Adobe EPUB & PDF. When I had requested it, the Kindle format had also been listed.

When reading a thread in a forum that I regularly follow, I realized that this is wide spread. So far, the books that have been identified as missing in Kindle format (knowing for certain that they WERE PREVIOUSLY available in Kindle format) are all published by Penguin.

Does Overdrive know anything about this situation? I appreciate any feedback that can be provided. Overdrive is a tremendous resource for public libraries and their users._


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## monkeygirl351 (Mar 5, 2010)

lori_piper said:


> I can tell you that "The Help", which had been the most popular book at all my libraries, is gone from all five libraries that I have online access to.
> 
> It's published by Putnam, for what it's worth.


Hiya all, 
I checked at my library, (Seattle Public Library and Pierce County Library systems) and it is there, just not a kindle version. I have an epub and pdf versions there. 137 patrons on waiting list with 91 copies . Anyways, I used to crack the epub versions to read on my kindle long before the kindle versions were available. Guess I will have to do that for some books still. Kindle library lending is just so more convenient.


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## swpubl (Nov 3, 2011)

Does anyone know if you can find Nook books in a library to download?


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## monkeygirl351 (Mar 5, 2010)

swpubl said:


> Does anyone know if you can find Nook books in a library to download?


 The nook takes epub, so any epub available would work on the Nook.


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## PhillyGuy (Dec 18, 2010)

CegAbq said:


> I thought maybe I had been mistaken and that it hadn't been available in Kindle format when I placed a hold. Then I read this thread.


More or less the same here. I had been intending to e-read _From Eternity to Here: The Quest for the Ultimate Theory of Time_. This is the kind of book that you usually would not have to reserve. Anyway, yesterday I was ready to start it, and went to the Free Library of Philadelphia web site where I found this title was only available as EPUB or PDF. I am 99 per cent sure that I had previously seen it for the Kindle, and with this thread I'm more sure.

Publisher is Dutton Penguin.


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## bkworm8it (Nov 17, 2008)

monkeygirl351 said:


> Hiya all,
> I checked at my library, (Seattle Public Library and Pierce County Library systems) and it is there, just not a kindle version. I have an epub and pdf versions there. 137 patrons on waiting list with 91 copies . Anyways, I used to crack the epub versions to read on my kindle long before the kindle versions were available. Guess I will have to do that for some books still. Kindle library lending is just so more convenient.


I'm in the Pierce county library system and that's who I sent off an email to check out the issue with overdrive.



MariaESchneider said:


> I don't suppose it would help if you told your library that there are, oh, at least 20 people on this thread counting on him/her to answer soon
> 
> No?
> 
> How about chocolate


LOL no I had sent it off before finding this thread on kindleboards. Thought I was having a bad dream lol....


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

Has anyone discovered any other publishers besides Penguin whose books are no longer available from their libraries in Kindle format? I've been trying to remember what all I've checked out in the past to look at the publisher & so far haven't found any except those published by Penguin or one of its derivatives.


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## racheldeet (Jan 21, 2010)

I agree with the licensing issue being a likely cause. It's the same reason you can surf 15 different websites to legally buy MP3s, and only one has your favorite band. Something, somewhere, has gone awry with contract agreements and whatnot.


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## lori_piper (Oct 7, 2010)

Just some additional data...

I checked my wishlist, and all non-Penguin titles are still available for Kindle. ALL of my Penguin titles (about a dozen of them) are now only available as ePubs.

I really hate Penguin.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

kindlegrl81 said:


> Maybe Overdrive got hacked by that disgruntled librarian


I almost spewed my coffee 

I haven't experienced the problem yet, currently I have several children's books checked out to utilize the Fire over Thanksgiving.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Here is a update on Overdrive regarding the Penguin situation.

http://overdriveblogs.com/library/2011/11/21/penguin-library-ebook-update/

This doesn't really explain though why they only demand disabling the kindle version. If they are re evaluating the ebook lending, why do they still keep the epubs up. 

Someone on Amz posted this link with a statement from Penguin

http://www.thedigitalshift.com/2011/11/ebooks/penguin-group-usa-to-no-longer-allow-library-lending-of-new-ebook-titles/

They say security of their digital editions is the issue. Hmm


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

The cynic in me, and I have no basis for this whatsoever, wonders if this is a result of Amazon's new Prime lending....

Betsy


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## RDaneel54 (Sep 10, 2010)

Finally, the answer to the missing 2,000 books.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> The cynic in me, and I have no basis for this whatsoever, wonders if this is a result of Amazon's new Prime lending....
> 
> Betsy


That makes two cynics. Count me in.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

And another cynic.

I also just received a response from David Burleigh pointing me to that posting on Overdrive's blog. Nice to get an acknowledgement to my inquiry. It's clearly not Overdrive's fault - it's all with Penguin. Wonder what they think they'll accomplish.

I have a series of books published by Penguin. I have purchased 2 and was thinking about buying the rest of the series (about 10 more books in all). Not going to happen now. Penguin also published two omnibus (omnibi?) of ebooks 1-4 and books 5-8; they set the pricing higher for each set of 4 than if you bought each one individually.

Penguin really doesn't get the ebook industry at all.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2011)

After shooting themselves in the foot by opening a vanity publishing branch, Penguin has now pulled their books from Kindle's lending library.

Won't support them again.

http://paidcontent.org/article/419-penguin-pulls-new-e-books-from-libraries/


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

CegAbq said:


> And another cynic.
> 
> I also just received a response from David Burleigh pointing me to that posting on Overdrive's blog. Nice to get an acknowledgement to my inquiry. It's clearly not Overdrive's fault - it's all with Penguin. Wonder what they think they'll accomplish.
> 
> ...


Worse than not getting the ebook industry, they don't have an understanding of their own customers. If they want to make more money per library book, I can see them raising what they charge overdrive/libraries (then it is up to the libraries to decide if they are willing to pay the price of those licenses.) But these games with pricing and pulling and generally making it harder and more expensive to access their books...it's CRAZY.


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## Me and My Kindle (Oct 20, 2010)

People had been reporting that the number of ebooks had dropped significantly in the Kindle Lending Library.  Now we know why...

I think this will all get sorted out in the end. I always thought the Lending Library was making ebooks more prominent, so that customers would be more interested in then actually buying a copy (either for themselves, or as a gift).  But once everybody's using a Kindle, I think Penguin will have a lot more trouble ignoring Amazon's Kindle Library as promotional opportunity...


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## tlrowley (Oct 29, 2008)

This has nothing to do with the Kindle Lending Library - this is Penguin pulling its Kindle editions of already published books from public libraries all over the US.  For now, the epub and PDF versions will remain.  In addition, Penguin has put a moratorium on releasing all new ebooks to public libraries while they review their position.

They're dead to me.... (and I don't even borrow books from the library, it's the principle of the thing)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I've merged two very similar threads, thanks for understanding!

Betsy


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## ElaineOK (Jun 5, 2009)

Penguin also has the most unrealistic pricing scheme for ebooks.  I don't remember the last time I bought a Penguin ebook, but it has been a while.

Elaine
Norman, OK


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## monkeygirl351 (Mar 5, 2010)

This really sucks, as they also won't be releasing any new books even in epub. I really really hate greedy publishers. I refuse to pay the prices they want for thier books. It seems like 12.99- 14.99 is the norm. I hope this all turns out in the end and these publishers would pull their heads out of where the sun don't shine. I guess I will check out the paper books from the library or get them eventually at a used book store, but they won't be getting one dime of my money.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

monkeygirl351 said:


> ...I guess I will check out the paper books from the library or get them eventually at a used book store, but they won't be getting one dime of my money.


Yep - that's the way I'm feeling; really a bummer because they were about to get about $75 from me in a series & then they have 3-4 more forthcoming in 2012. Oh well, library print copies it is.

_ETA: not that my measly $75-100 is going to really matter to the publisher; _


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> The cynic in me, and I have no basis for this whatsoever, wonders if this is a result of Amazon's new Prime lending....
> 
> Betsy


I had already posted about my cynicism.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

intinst said:


> I had already posted about my cynicism.


intinst - you're a *CYNIC* ? No way


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Some other news from another thread (person on a library board) has explained that older ePUB versions (ones in the system) apparently cannot be pulled because the license was sold ONE time as a forever license.  BUT apparently the publishers don't have to leave multiple versions to support the contract.  They can't "revoke" licenses already sold to libraries because the library paid.  Thus, he seems to suspect that while some licenses may expire, some may remain, but per the new announcement, no new books will be added in any e-format.

That is, unless they work out whatever contract detail they supposedly have issue with.

Apparently some libraries didn't like the attempt by (hachette?) to limit checkouts to 26 times or one year, etc.  So those libraries stopped buying from that publisher.  His library was one of them.  They were not adding books by whichever publisher constrained checkouts and/or required renewal of a license after a time-period.

This pulling by Penguin MAY (and I stress that because this is MY guess and no one else's) be because they have decided that a renewable license didn't work for whichever pub tried it and they don't want to sell licenses as a one-time only deal.  Or it could be some other issue that I haven't thought of yet.  But I'm trying.  I'm speculating madly!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

It all seems very silly to me. Like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Which reminds me:










Read it out loud.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

Penguin's latest actions are prime example of why the publishing industry is in so much trouble.


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## bkworm8it (Nov 17, 2008)

well I'll certainly start double checking what publishing company before I purchase anymore books. Which is a bummer because I'm reading through the Dresden files and only at book 8. I may have to purchase a nook just to finish the series   . I'd rather my money go there than to the publisher..


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## Stephanie (Apr 28, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> It all seems very silly to me. Like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Which reminds me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love it! Thanks for the giggle, Ann!


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## Susan (Jan 6, 2009)

I have really not paid that much attention to who is the publisher of a book I am purchasing, whether a hard copy or for my Kindle. I will start paying attention now though, and am temporarily (until they wise up) checking from now on and I will not purchase another Penguin book.


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## Tripp (May 28, 2009)

Well, I have been anti-Penguin for quite some time...this is just one more example to me that they are not a publisher I wish to support with my e-book $$$.  I went to my library wish list and some fairly new releases have their Kindle versions pulled while still being available in epub.  Meh, I still have a fairly large list of titles on my wish list that I can check out.  I will just read those.  I just hope this move doesn't encourage other publishers to follow suit.

And I know that Penguin is not missing my measly $$$ that I used to spend on their books, but if they alienate enough consumers, I assume there will be a tipping point.  One can only hope.


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

ElaineOK said:


> Penguin also has the most unrealistic pricing scheme for ebooks. I don't remember the last time I bought a Penguin ebook, but it has been a while.
> 
> Elaine
> Norman, OK


I remember the last penguin ebook I bought, or at least tried to. A Dresden book by Jim Butcher, had it on pre-order and then it got pulled during the agency pricing thingy. They've been dead to me since, feel bad for Mr. Butcher and his lost sales as I had bought every previous book of his.


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## rho (Feb 12, 2009)

Like some have said they might not miss my money but they will miss it if a lot of us don't buy from them ..


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

There have been a couple of reports today on other forums that ePub books that were pre-order and wait listed are now gone in all formats from a couple of libraries.


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## bkworm8it (Nov 17, 2008)

Maybe we should all start twitting and facebooking our displeasure with penguin publishers. 

I won't be reading other series from them myself and will start checking publishers before purchasing... I may buy second hand to finish the series I've started or maybe audio if they are available. I guess they feel they have the most 'popular' books that doing this won't harm them because people will just buy the DTB just to be able to read those authors.


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## PhillyGuy (Dec 18, 2010)

bkworm8it said:


> Maybe we should all start twitting and facebooking our displeasure with penguin publishers.


It is not just Penguin. Macmillan and Simon & Schuster have, as far as I know, never participated with Overdrive. At least Penguin gave it a try.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

The Penguin Group is the *LARGEST* publishing house in the world. Trying to boycott them will be a real challenge (& I do want to boycott them). 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_Group

If there is some way to actually track all of the houses that refuse to come on board with ebook publishing, I will try also to boycott those houses who want to try to squelch ebooks.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

Just got this notice from Overdrive:
http://overdriveblogs.com/library/2011/11/23/penguin-ebook-titles-for-lending-to-kindle-restored/

I just checked my library & those books that had been pulled are indeed now back. However, the blog does confirm that no new titles from Penguin groups will be added. Guess Amazon & Penguin have some more talking to do.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

MariaESchneider said:


> Some other news from another thread (person on a library board) has explained that older ePUB versions (ones in the system) apparently cannot be pulled because the license was sold ONE time as a forever license. BUT apparently the publishers don't have to leave multiple versions to support the contract. They can't "revoke" licenses already sold to libraries because the library paid. Thus, he seems to suspect that while some licenses may expire, some may remain, but per the new announcement, no new books will be added in any e-format.
> 
> That is, unless they work out whatever contract detail they supposedly have issue with.
> 
> ...


It's HarperCollins that limits the eBook checkouts of their books to 26 per license.

I need to find an address for Penguin - let them know that between their consistent overpricing of their eBooks and now their pulling of Kindle books from Overdrive, any Penguin title I want to read will come from a used book seller. They won't get a dime from me.

Yeah, that'll fix 'em!  (I was going to post to their FB page, but apparently they don't want readers to post to their wall, aside from commenting on Penguin's status updates. There's a Penguin UK wall where a couple of folks have commented, but you can't on the Penguin USA wall. Lovely.

They do, however, have a Community Message Board on their website. http://community.penguin.com/service/displayForum.kickAction?as=150186&w=286693


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## CNDudley (May 14, 2010)

And now Random House "reviewing their policy"!

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/digital/content-and-e-books/article/49617-no-change-but-random-house-says-it-is--actively-reviewing--library-e-book-policy-.html?utm_source=Publishers+Weekly%27s+PW+Daily&utm_campaign=a6707b2a8a-UA-15906914-1&utm_medium=email

90% of what's left at my library seems to be erotica...


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

OK - I can "kind of" get publishers hatred of ebooks; but they let libraries buy their print books so library patrons can check out print books. Why would they distinguish checking out print books from checking out ebooks?


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

CegAbq said:


> OK - I can "kind of" get publishers hatred of ebooks; but they let libraries buy their print books so library patrons can check out print books. Why would they distinguish checking out print books from checking out ebooks?


Mostly because they figure print books will eventually wear out and be replaced - digital books won't. And I can understand setting a limit to how many times a digital title can be loaned, but make it a reasonable limit. HarperCollins' 26-time limit isn't reasonable, as a few librarians pointed out on youtube.

And while they cite the threat of piracy, the truth it piracy is happening with or without Overdrive editions out there. There are plenty of books available from pirate sites that have NEVER been legally published in eBook form, so really, what do they think they're accomplishing? As my dad used to say, that's an excuse, not a reason.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

Meemo said:


> And while they cite the threat of piracy, the truth it piracy is happening with or without Overdrive editions out there. There are plenty of books available from pirate sites that have NEVER been legally published in eBook form, so really, what do they think they're accomplishing? As my dad used to say, that's an excuse, not a reason.


Yeppers! "Harry Potter," for one, is all over the internet in digital form. It has still not been issued officially, though.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Meemo said:


> Mostly because they figure print books will eventually wear out and be replaced - digital books won't. And I can understand setting a limit to how many times a digital title can be loaned, but make it a reasonable limit. HarperCollins' 26-time limit isn't reasonable, as a few librarians pointed out on youtube.


I'm confident that libraries and publishers have statistics on how often paper books last as library books and have to be repurchased by libraries...use that time frame. If it's once a year, or once every x number of checkouts (because obviously, frequently checked out books will wear out more often time-wise) then make it that number. 26 does seem low to me...

Betsy


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm confident that libraries and publishers have statistics on how often paper books last as library books and have to be repurchased by libraries...use that time frame. If it's once a year, or once every x number of checkouts (because obviously, frequently checked out books will wear out more often time-wise) then make it that number. 26 does seem low to me...
> 
> Betsy


26 definitely seems low. But if the libraries are paying less for the ebooks - which I certainly hope they are - maybe it balances out to the same $$? In any case, why is Random House now questioning their commitment if they're getting a sale after every 26 rentals? It's the same reason I can't understand publishers objecting to books being lent by Amazon when Amazon agrees to pay for every rental as if it was a sale.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm pretty sure it's been posted here before, but here's the librarians' video showing some paper books, their condition, and how many times they've been checked out.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Y'know, if the Big 6 had a lick of sense, they'd get together and set up their own Netflix-type service for people to check out digital editions of their books - no middle man, they could set their limits, and find out what the market will bear.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

Meemo said:


> Y'know, if the Big 6 had a lick of sense, they'd get together and set up their own Netflix-type service for people to check out digital editions of their books - no middle man, they could set their limits, and find out what the market will bear.


Yep, I've been saying that for ages! If the publishers were smarter than the music industry - which allowed iTunes to sweep the rug from under their feet - the publishers would have established their own on-line store and renting service before someone else did it for them. But obviously they're not smarter!


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## chocochibi (Jan 2, 2009)

DYB said:


> 26 definitely seems low. But if the libraries are paying less for the ebooks - which I certainly hope they are - maybe it balances out to the same $$?


My partner is the media librarian at our local library, and part of his job is to buy the ebooks for the collection. He says the ebooks actually cost MORE because they have to buy the book AND a license. He says the difference can be anywhere from $9 to $99.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

chocochibi said:


> My partner is the media librarian at our local library, and part of his job is to buy the ebooks for the collection. He says the ebooks actually cost MORE because they have to buy the book AND a license. He says the difference can be anywhere from $9 to $99.


Yes, but keep in mind that libraries often pay a hefty price for a book (Paper) anyway, unless they are donated (and a lot of books are donated to libraries so it probably evens out.)

I've seen books get damaged beyond reading after one check-out. I've seen them last 3 years and then get dropped in a tub. I have no problem with a license that must be renewed; the point is to find a middle ground and go with it.

One of the reasons that ebooks cost so much for libraries is because of overdrive--they charge a MINT for the software and management. So keep in mind that it isn't just the publishers here. If the publishers were able to work directly with libraries, one huge cost would be eliminated (not that any governmental body such as a library can do ANYTHING directly. You should see what software costs for checking books in and out. You'd think it was the space program. This doesn't even count the various database software programs that do all kinds of tracking and stats. And the more reports you want to run, the higher your cost. Want support for that software? Well, that is sold as as separate package and there are levels.)

So bear in mind that it isn't just the publishers at fault for that ebook price. I'm not saying they aren't greedy and out of control, but the cost of books to libraries has a lot of hands in the pie.


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## bkworm8it (Nov 17, 2008)

Glad they are back, I hurried up and got some that I want to finish just in case they pull them again!


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

DYB said:


> But if the libraries are paying less for the ebooks - which I certainly hope they are -


]
actually, I understand libraries are paying *more* for ebooks.

http://www.teleread.com/library/salt-lake-city-library-pays-more-for-e-books-than-for-print/


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Penguin must be run by a bunch of idiots. But, that said, I won't boycott them. I just don't buy overpriced ebooks and all of their ebooks are overpriced so...there you go. 

Three things top the list of Things That Will Make You Stupid: Love, fear, and greed. Penguin is operating out of those last two, fear and greed. They are almost predestined to make all the wrong moves.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

So , when I've read a few of the Penguin books checked out from my library on my Kindle, at the end of the book I have the option to buy it - and I have for several; plus I've gone and bought the next in the series because I don't want to wait to get it through the library (there are always holds on what I want). Why would Penguin not want to encourage purchases this way?


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## SandyLu562 (May 8, 2010)

WOW! and I was going to buy the hubbs a Kindle Touch for Christmas since there are so many library books he'd enjoy reading. 

Looks like e-readers are getting whacked, well their owners are. Paying more for an e-book and getting fewer legal rights (than with a print copy) is pretty annoying and should be illegal. "Renting" books for more than the print copy price ... well I'm not going to support that!

PaperBack Swap and other trading sites along with used book stores are going to do lots more business now!


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

I posted this Tuesday on my Facebook page, tagging Penguin USA. That gets around the fact that we can't comment on their page.



> Once again, publishers show that they are threatened by ebooks. Penguin Books has pulled only the Kindle editions from public libraries for "security". Really? So the DRM can only be stripped from .mobi or .azw? ePub is rock solid? Oh, they won't offer any of their new titles to libraries in the future? Well, its a shame that the majority of my favorite authors are part of Penguin, but Penguin won't be getting any of my money in the future.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

I am completely DEVASTATED!
I have 6 series that I have on my list to buy everything that is available in the series in Kindle format.
BUT - 3 of these series are published by PENGUIN - whom I want to try to boycott because of their insane ebook policies.

These are series that I enjoy re-reading LOTS.
Whatever am I to do as a RESPONSIBLE consumer wanting to try to effect some notice of important issues!
(In the past I have been know to boycott companies for political/social justice issues that others would characterize as 'tilting at windmills' a la Don Quixote)
I am sorely challenged on this issue.


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## VictoriaP (Mar 1, 2009)

CegAbq said:


> I am completely DEVASTATED!
> I have 6 series that I have on my list to buy everything that is available in the series in Kindle format.
> BUT - 3 of these series are published by PENGUIN - whom I want to try to boycott because of their insane ebook policies.
> 
> ...


If you enjoy rereading them currently, that means you own the books, right? Take the money you would have spent to re-buy them in Kindle format, and buy a good scanner and the right software for it instead. Then scan in your existing books and convert them for your personal use.

Afterwards, don't forget to tell Penguin in writing, citing current prices, how much in sales they cost themselves with their policies.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

VictoriaP said:


> If you enjoy rereading them currently, that means you own the books, right? Take the money you would have spent to re-buy them in Kindle format, and buy a good scanner and the right software for it instead. Then scan in your existing books and convert them for your personal use.
> 
> Afterwards, don't forget to tell Penguin in writing, citing current prices, how much in sales they cost themselves with their policies.


Actually - I don't own the books. I almost always start off borrowing books from either friends or my pubic library (either in print, audiobook or ebook versions)
Then when I really get into the book (or series), what usually happens is that when I'm ready for the next in the series, if there are too many holds through the library, I'll cave and buy one of the books
Then I get so hooked that I want the entire series to always be available to me for anytime I instantly want to start re-reading.

So, while I have bought a few of the books that Penguin publishes, by the time I decided I wanted the series - all this brew-ha-ha came up & I'm so disgusted with Penguin's attitude, so far I'm not buying. Of 6 series with at least 8 books in each series that I want to 'acquire', 4 of them are published by Penguin. And with each book costing at least $8, it's a fair chunk of change (for me at least) that I'm not giving to Penguin.

Besides, even if I owned the print versions of the books, each book is 250-300 pages at least; that's a LOT of scanning that is not worth the effort.


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## DJRMel (Nov 7, 2011)

Looks like Penguin is pulling out of OverDrive completely now.

From The Wall Street Journal, dated 02092012 http://online.wsj.com/article/APe2bd603635d94c50b8611041869045f7.html

_NEW YORK - Penguin Group (USA), which publishes such best-sellers as Kathryn Stockett's "The Help" and "Elizabeth Gilbert's "Eat, Pray, Love," has stopped selling e-books to libraries.

Simon & Schuster, Macmillan and the Hachette Book Group are among the major publishers that already limit e-book availability to libraries. While more and more smaller publishers are providing e-books to libraries, larger publishers have been concerned that the ease of downloading books from libraries could hurt sales.

Penguin announced Thursday it would stop selling e-books to libraries through OverDrive Inc., a Cleveland-based digital distributor and major supplier for the library market. The publisher added that it was talking with a "number of partners" about possible future arrangements. OverDrive CEO Steve Potash said he was still "actively working" with Penguin about how to address their concerns._

No more Penguin books for me....borrowed OR purchased.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

I am reaaaalllly sad about this move on Penguin's part.
There are several series that I adore that sadly are published by Penguin.
I hate reading DTBs checked out from the public library! Wonder if I have to resort to that again.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

Yesterday I got a book from Overdrive and there was a note that the publisher (Penguin, of course!) required me to download it to my computer and transfer to the Kindle via USB. I found an article which explained that Penguin was doing this to create "more friction" in the lending process, that somehow it was a bad thing to have a simple wireless download and they needed to make the experience a bit more like having to drive to the library and check out a physical book. I just sent the following letter to Penguin's customer service email address, which probably won't accomplish a thing but made me feel a bit better.


Dear Penguin,

I grew up loving the Penguin Books brand. I loved the classic books you published, with the distinctive orange binding and cool penguin logo.

Well, you tarnished that rather badly by leading the charge toward agency pricing for Kindle ebooks. Before that, I was buying books for my Kindle at a rate much greater than I’d ever bought paper books. I wasn’t too worried about the price because they were pretty much all priced at a level that made sense to me, the same or less than paperback books. Then you imposed higher pricing and, in doing so, got me started looking at the publisher for all the wrong reasons. If the publisher was Penguin, I could be pretty sure that the ebook price was unreasonably high; even if it weren’t, by some chance, my inclination would be to look for a non-Penguin alternative to purchase.

Then Kindle books became obtainable from the library. Fantastic! I dusted off my unused library card and started checking out books, with a special focus on books whose purchase prices had been raised high by greedy publishers. I never in my life before had considered going to the library as a way to avoid giving money to a publishing house, but I admit that it’s now a part of the experience. Somehow, books remain beloved but (certain) publishers have become the enemy, with Penguin a highly visible leader of the pack.

And now, in an absurdly comical attempt to shoot another toe off your foot – notwithstanding the fact that penguins have fewer toes to spare than most other species – you attempt to create “friction” in the lending process by disallowing wireless downgrades in the borrowing process. What the heck is that little corporate birdbrain thinking?! As an irritated consumer, I now must decide between two reactions:

1)	Go ahead and download books via USB to my Kindle, realizing as I do so that, although Penguin is specifically working to inconvenience me technologically (even if it’s very slightly), I’m still not paying for the book. Yet I was still somewhat conflicted when I did so yesterday because I knew that Penguin was in fact benefitting from the library’s purchase of the ebook license.
2)	Understand that Penguin has now provided more incentive and made it easier to identify Penguin-published library books and extend my semi-boycott of Penguin books to include library books. I honestly don’t know whether I’ll choose this option or not.

Either way, I don’t see how Penguin comes out ahead. I just fail to grasp how this quixotic attack on technology can do anything but damage the corporate revenue stream and destroy a revered industry brand. I know that corporate boards and management teams don’t sit around asking themselves, “What can we do today to further alienate our customer base?”, so I’m really curious about how this sequence of poor decisions came about.

And that curiosity about how and why is really my question, because I don’t expect this letter to change anything. Penguin Books as an entity seems hell-bent on  self-destruction. But what was so wrong with the old business model with Amazon, where they paid their Penguin-established price to Penguin and decided the retail price for themselves? Why go out of the way to identify Penguin as the company who thinks that easier borrowing from the public library is a bad thing? I agree that publishers in general are facing industry upheaval and long-term survivability questions, but I don’t even see any short-term upside to these recent decisions. What do you think you are going to do to restore the brand and reclaim alienated customers like me?


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## Vicki G. (Feb 18, 2010)

Ditto what GBear said.  I also read a number of series published by Penguin but only check out one of those series from the library.  I buy all the others for my Kindle.  And yet these people (Penguin) and their attitude are leaving an extremely bad taste in my mouth.


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## DJRMel (Nov 7, 2011)

That is a very well written letter, GBear.  Maybe if enough of those cross the right desk at Penguin, they'll at least try to explain why they think making their eBook less convenient to borrow through OverDrive than other publisher's books is a good business practice.  I don't understand how it would lead to more sales of any type, because for each person who thinks that side loading is so inconvenient they'll go buy the book, there will be at least one who doesn't want to be bothered (or better yet, is actually offended by Penguin's arrogance) who won't read the book under any conditions.

I can't get past the feeling that OverDrive working with Amazon is what's really bothering Penguin (and probably the other 5).  If that's the case, then Penguin should have worked out another lending option and  had a good number of libraries on board before announcing that they wanted "friction" between their books and readers.  Did no one at Penguin put themselves in the position of a book borrower and realize how we might react to such a statement?


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

DJRMel said:


> Did no one at Penguin put themselves in the position of a book borrower and realize how we might react to such a statement?


No, because they don't much care about readers, and even less (I'm sure) about book borrowers. They don't consider readers to be their customers. Publishers have made it clear that they consider book stores their customers, since it's the stores that directly buy from them. Readers are an afterthought, and they clearly haven't made the shift in thinking that the agency model requires, now that they've decided there's no real "middle man" and that they sell directly to readers.

If they think this will make me start buying paper books, they're wrong. I won't. And even if I did, I'd go back to my old paper-book-buying habit, and buy them used or get them from the library. Either way, they (and their authors) would be getting a lot less of my money. Well, they already do because of their overpricing. This new library policy is a slight inconvenience, but it won't keep me from downloading Penguin books from the library. But it'll danged sure keep me from *buying* Penguin books. 

I am happy, though, that Overdrive tells the borrower *why* they're being slightly inconvenienced and insulted.

And I love GBear's letter - well said!


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

http://us.penguingroup.com/static/pages/aboutus/bio-makinson.html

This is the person we need to make hear us.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

BTackitt said:


> http://us.penguingroup.com/static/pages/aboutus/bio-makinson.html
> 
> This is the person we need to make hear us.


So - how do we contact him?


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## PhillyGuy (Dec 18, 2010)

CegAbq said:


> So - how do we contact him?


He surely reads his sales figures, so you hit his retina every time you choose to buy, or not buy a Penguin title.

I'm not advising a boycott. AFAIK, Penguin treats their employees better than the likes of Amazon. So if this is the best business decision for them, go ahead.

However, since I stick to library books, which lately means Overdrive, and since my library will now buy Overdrive titles from other publishers, Penguin won't be getting any revenue from me.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

I received this response to my letter from Penguin:

_Thank you for your inquiry.

In these ever changing times, it is vital that we forge relationships with libraries and build a future together. We care about preserving the value of our authors' work as well as helping libraries continue to serve their communities. Our ongoing partnership with the ALA is more important than ever, and our recent talks with ALA leadership helped bring everything into focus. Looking ahead, we are continuing to talk about our future plans for eBook and digital audiobook availability for library lending with a number of partners providing these services. Because of these discussions, as of February 10, 2012, Penguin will no longer offer additional copies of eBooks and audiobooks for purchase via Overdrive. Physical editions of Penguin's new and backlist titles will continue to be available in libraries everywhere._

So, it seems that the inconvenient USB downloads are just temporary until the licenses expire, at which point Penguin books will indeed no longer be available through Overdrive, and they have nothing in place right now to support any electronic lending. Curiously, and in line with DJRMel's comments, the verbiage talks about forging relationships with libraries and says nothing at all about relationships with readers. My reaction to all this ranges from disappointment to anger to pity for a company that is this short-sighted.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

Also, to further back up what DJRMel said about Penguin being anti-Amazon and aligned with the bookstores, I was actually in my local bookstore making a (fairly rare, I admit) purchase of some travel guides this weekend. The checkout counter was papered over with a large anti-Kindle diatribe, the message being to buy any ereader but Kindle because Amazon's DRM monopolizes all book revenues vs. more open formats that allow bookstores to sell ebooks and stay in business.

I went to the bookstore's website and they are actively selling Google eBooks. Interesting.


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## cc1013 (Jul 31, 2009)

Penguin has a Facebook page.  I would encourage everyone to go on their wall and post their opinion on the issue.  Seems to be an easy way to get their attention publicly!


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## NobodysFool (Feb 14, 2012)

Me and My Kindle said:


> People had been reporting that the number of ebooks had dropped significantly in the Kindle Lending Library. Now we know why...


There are a couple of points to make here. The first is that Penguin hasn't pulled any content, either on Kindle or on other formats. What they have announced is that they will no longer make new content available, at least not via OverDrive. Whether they will use another supplier or work out a direct deal with libraries is something that only Penguin knows.

The second is that the reduced content, according to one source, is caused by some cleanup between OverDrive and Amazon, where, in the original mapping between the two, quite a few books were matched incorrectly or were matched to content that is no longer available. The first step in the cleanup is to delete the flagged content, then resubmit and rematch. You should see the number climb again in the coming weeks, although likely not to its former numbers as some of the content is genuinely not available. It's just a coincidence that these two activities are taking place at the same time.

As to Penguin's comment about concerns with DRM, that's hogwash. Amazon uses the same DRM for purchased content as they do for library content and you don't see Penguin pulling books away from the Amazon Kindle Store.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

NobodysFool said:


> The first is that Penguin hasn't pulled any content, either on Kindle or on other formats.


Actually, when this was first posted, Penguin had in fact pulled their content from Overdrive with no notice to anyone - not to Overdrive, not to readers. They eventually restored it when there was enough hue & cry because Overdrive had already paid for the licensed content that Penguin pulled.



NobodysFool said:


> The second is that the reduced content, according to one source, is caused by some cleanup between OverDrive and Amazon, where, in the original mapping between the two, quite a few books were matched incorrectly or were matched to content that is no longer available.


This is not true. There was no problem with the content on Overdrive; no mismatch; I had been checking out Penguin content from my library's Overdrive service without any problem whatsoever until Penguin began pulling content.


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## NobodysFool (Feb 14, 2012)

CegAbq said:


> Actually, when this was first posted, Penguin had in fact pulled their content from Overdrive with no notice to anyone - not to Overdrive, not to readers. They eventually restored it when there was enough hue & cry because Overdrive had already paid for the licensed content that Penguin pulled.


Yeah, I realized after I posted that this was two different events. My apologies for the error.



CegAbq said:


> This is not true. There was no problem with the content on Overdrive; no mismatch; I had been checking out Penguin content from my library's Overdrive service without any problem whatsoever until Penguin began pulling content.


Sorry, but what I reported is true, to the tune of some 15,000 titles that were pulled. This is out of a few hundred thousand, I believe, so it's not really a surprise that you didn't run into it.


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## Dragle (Dec 10, 2011)

There is a big battle going on between publishers, libraries, and the middlemen (like Overdrive) that allow the borrowing. Overdrive is taking advantage of the situation for their profit. Our State library (Kansas) has decided to end the relationship with Overdrive and go to 3M, a new provider. They are fighting to get the right to have ownership of the ebooks they purchased from Overdrive to be transferred over to 3M. 
Details: http://www.libraryjournal.com/lj/home/892348-264/kansas_state_librarian_can_transfer.html.csp
and http://www.liscareyslibrary.com/2011/10/competition-for-overdrive-3m-cloud.html

Meanwhile, some publishers do not want their ebooks to be lendable by libraries at all. (I think some publishers also hate that libraries are allowed to loan their physical books, for that matter!). It's not just Penguin either. Per this site:
http://srpubliclibrary.org/whatsnew/did-you-know-your-library-cant-buy-ebooks-from-many-publishe.html


> The following publishers currently refuse to sell or license eBooks to libraries:
> 
> Macmillan Publishing
> Simon & Schuster
> ...


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## DJRMel (Nov 7, 2011)

Dragle said:


> There is a big battle going on between publishers, libraries, and the middlemen (like Overdrive) that allow the borrowing. Overdrive is taking advantage of the situation for their profit. Our State library (Kansas) has decided to end the relationship with Overdrive and go to 3M, a new provider. They are fighting to get the right to have ownership of the ebooks they purchased from Overdrive to be transferred over to 3M.


 According to this press release http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20120120005989/en/Innovations-Continue-3M-Cloud-Library, libraries using 3M's Cloud Library will own the ebooks they lend. It will be interesting to see how the Big 6 publishers handle that idea. Digital books never wear out or get lost. They can be lent as many times as the library wants to lend them. Also interesting that 3M's system only requires a library card and nothing else. Where's the "friction"? 

I have heard some accounts from people involved with purchasing for libraries that OverDrive is asking for long term contracts and their rates are going up very fast. They've got a monopoly and now that they've got Amazon they've gone crazy.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2012)

In a nutshell , Penguin is greedy and ignorant, and eventually that will be their downfall.


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## Dragle (Dec 10, 2011)

DJRMel said:


> According to this press release http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20120120005989/en/Innovations-Continue-3M-Cloud-Library, libraries using 3M's Cloud Library will own the ebooks they lend. It will be interesting to see how the Big 6 publishers handle that idea. Digital books never wear out or get lost. They can be lent as many times as the library wants to lend them. Also interesting that 3M's system only requires a library card and nothing else. Where's the "friction"?
> 
> I have heard some accounts from people involved with purchasing for libraries that OverDrive is asking for long term contracts and their rates are going up very fast. They've got a monopoly and now that they've got Amazon they've gone crazy.


Right, I didn't phrase that very well. I meant that the library "bought" a lot of books from publishers to lend via Overdrive and when they wanted to switch to 3M, had to fight to keep the right to their books. Overdrive considers the books "licensed" and has demanded that they be re-purchased after every so many loans (a ridiculously low number), claiming that since physical books "wear out" so should ebooks. Of course libraries can repair physical books and in any case they last way longer than what Overdrive claims. The library's costs were going to rise by 700% this year if they stayed with Overdrive, which is why they switched to 3M. 3M has said that any books bought through their service are considered owned and if the library ever wants to switch to a different service they can take their books with them. Yay for 3M, hope it works out.


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## CegAbq (Mar 17, 2009)

I guess this is all just another round in the book publishing drama as the world shifts more towards e-books.
I am on the fence about whether to boycott Penguin, or even all of the Big 6, and whether it's just a wait & see what develops.
Overdrive isn't sounding too clean either & I'm a BIG supporter of public libraries; not everyone has an unlimited book budget, whether it be DTBs, e-books, or audiobooks.
We readers just want to read!


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

Dragle said:


> Right, I didn't phrase that very well. I meant that the library "bought" a lot of books from publishers to lend via Overdrive and when they wanted to switch to 3M, had to fight to keep the right to their books. Overdrive considers the books "licensed" and *has demanded that they be re-purchased after every so many loans (a ridiculously low number), claiming that since physical books "wear out" so should ebooks. Of course libraries can repair physical books and in any case they last way longer than what Overdrive claims.* The library's costs were going to rise by 700% this year if they stayed with Overdrive, which is why they switched to 3M. 3M has said that any books bought through their service are considered owned and if the library ever wants to switch to a different service they can take their books with them. Yay for 3M, hope it works out.


I thought that was a publisher stipulation not a overdrive stipulation. I believe it was started by Simon & Schuster.


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## DJRMel (Nov 7, 2011)

kindlegrl81 said:


> I thought that was a publisher stipulation not a overdrive stipulation. I believe it was started by Simon & Schuster.


That's always been OverDrive's explanation, at least. They put this up on their website in December when questioned why all libraries aren't treated the same
http://overdriveblogs.com/library/2011/12/12/ensuring-access-to-the-largest-ebook-catalog-for-libraries/


> "We serve a growing network of libraries, schools, corporations, government agencies and institutions, and every week add new publishers and thousands of new eBook titles. Each publisher or author has the ability, on a title-by-title basis, to set the permissions, copyright protection settings, price, and other rules associated with digital lending of their eBook or other digital content."


For 3M's plan to work, the publisher is going to have to agree to the libraries actually owning the book for the purpose of public lending, just as they agree when their DTB are bought for the purpose of public lending.

I found these comments from the business manager of 3Ms library systems interesting. He knows that their system (which is still beta, btw) is not going to make everyone happy either: http://www.thedigitalshift.com/2012/02/ebooks/ala-authors-guild-3m-weigh-in-on-penguin-overdrive-dispute/


> "So far there is no resounding agreement about the perfect way," Tempelis said. "Every publisher appears to have different hot buttons," he said, adding that no company wanted to be a pioneer in this space. 3M's cloud library system is a competing service to OverDrive.
> 
> "The easiest thing for us would be to have one model to deliver to the community, because every new model adds complexities to our systems," Tempelis said. "But the reality is, when you are dealing with a variety of different companies, everyone has a different idea of how to do it."
> 
> ...


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

I have no loyalty to Overdrive and they may well be taking advantage of the leadership position to raise prices or otherwise take actions that lead libraries and publishers to seek alternate service providers. But I still hold Penguin accountable for pulling out with no alternate solution in place or even proposed, leaving readers dangling.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

kindlegrl81 said:


> I thought that was a publisher stipulation not a overdrive stipulation. I believe it was started by Simon & Schuster.


Simon & Schuster doesn't supply their books to Overdrive at all (nor does Macmillan). It was HarperCollins that instituted the 26-loan limit for their eBooks, just about a year ago. I can understand wanting limits, but make it a reasonable limit - and 26 is NOT reasonable.

It just amazes me how publishers, especially the Big 6, seem to totally disregard their end users (we lowly readers) at almost every opportunity.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

Meemo said:


> It just amazes me how publishers, especially the Big 6, seem to totally disregard their end users (we lowly readers) at almost every opportunity.


I've got it! Let's boycott books! We'll all stop reading that'll show them not to diss us readers!!

Yeah, like any of us on this forum could/would voluntarily stop reading.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

mom133d (aka Liz) said:


> I've got it! Let's boycott books! We'll all stop reading that'll show them not to diss us readers!!
> 
> Yeah, like any of us on this forum could/would voluntarily stop reading.


The beauty of it is we don't have to boycott books - but we can spend our money with publishers who don't treat us like inconvenient afterthoughts. I probably wouldn't actively "boycott" Penguin - but considering how overpriced most of their ebooks are, I probably wouldn't buy many of them either. And get what I could from Overdrive - and maybe use lostbooksales.com to register every time I did that.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

After reading this thread I deleted my preorders on two series from Penguin.  The books were already pushing my limits on price, this was just enough for me to say, "no, thanks anyways".


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## RDaneel54 (Sep 10, 2010)

Random House still allows Library borrowing through Overdrive.  They may increase prices to the libraries, but have not said they will stop.

The rest either don't allow Library borrowing (4 of the big 6) with one HarperCollins requiring repurchase after 26 loans.

I'm glad Random House is still in as I'm an Anne Perry addict (there I said it).

Dean


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## Neekeebee (Jan 10, 2009)

Well said, GBear.

I am really annoyed by Penguin making us jump through hoops to get books from the library. Maybe they'd also prefer we all have to walk instead of bike/drive to the library to get our paper copies too.

Does Penguin really think that knowing they imposed this obstacle to make it harder for me to get the ebook will make me say, "Well, then I guess I'll just go to the Kindle Store and _buy_ the book instead, so I can read this Penguin book without further delay!" No, it makes me say, "Better not get started on this series...it's from Penguin!"

N


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I admit that I don't really pay any attention to who publishes what, but if I tried to borrow something from the library and was told I couldn't do it wirelessly, I'd say 'never mind' and return it. And probably let the library know why so they could share with them as is responsible.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I admit that I don't really pay any attention to who publishes what, but if I tried to borrow something from the library and was told I couldn't do it wirelessly, I'd say 'never mind' and return it. And probably let the library know why so they could share with them as is responsible.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk


They're tricksy Ann. I just checked out a book I had on hold. The process was identical up to telling Amazon which device to send the title to. Then a screen appeared informing me of the download prompt. My laptop had it downloaded in before that screen had even finished loading. Boo!

I find it a little funny that my check-out was "Jeff Bezos and the Rise of Amazon"


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## tubemonkey (Aug 10, 2010)

USB only Kindle books can still be sent to your Kindle wirelessly. Since Monday, I've successfully borrowed books from an HP TouchPad, Kindle Fire, and home PC and all of them transferred wirelessly to my Kindle 3 and all Kindle apps.

Not sure what Penguin is on about, but I've yet to use a USB cable for library books.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

tubemonkey said:


> USB only Kindle books can still be sent to your Kindle wirelessly. Since Monday, I've successfully borrowed books from an HP TouchPad, Kindle Fire, and home PC and all of them transferred wirelessly to my Kindle 3 and all Kindle apps.
> 
> Not sure what Penguin is on about, but I've yet to use a USB cable for library books.


What happened to me with a Penguin book was that I checked it out from Overdrive, went to Amazon, and the only options for retrieving the book were to download it to the computer. Wireless delivery to Kindle devices was greyed out.

This was on Feb. 12. Perhaps things have changed (yet again) since then, but I haven't seen any news. Here's another article about it from the ALA magazine. The author appears to be trying to be neutral, painting Overdrive and Amazon as potential villains.
http://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/e-content/penguin-reaffirms-support-ala-spurns-overdrive


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## tubemonkey (Aug 10, 2010)

GBear said:


> What happened to me with a Penguin book was that I checked it out from Overdrive, went to Amazon, and the only options for retrieving the book were to download it to the computer. Wireless delivery to Kindle devices was greyed out.


My apps were greyed out also. I just chose download to my Kindle 3 and the book wirelessly transferred to my Kindle and all Kindle apps.

*Edit:* I just tried it again and paid close attention to the steps. After being sent to Amazon, my only choice in the "deliver to" menu was: "Transfer via Computer"; everything else was greyed out. So I hit the "Get library book" button and was sent to another page.

It said "xxx, please choose which Kindle you plan to transfer your title to via USB:" My only choice in the "deliver to" menu this time was my Kindle 3; all of my Kindle apps were greyed out. Evidently, Penguin requires you to have an actual Kindle device on your account or you don't get the book.

I hit the "Continue" button and a download popup appeared. I ignored it, because the book had already been sent to my archives. I opened my Kindle, turned on WiFi, then retrieved the book from my archives.

No USB cable involved anywhere in the process.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

GBear said:


> What happened to me with a Penguin book was that I checked it out from Overdrive, went to Amazon, and the only options for retrieving the book were to download it to the computer. Wireless delivery to Kindle devices was greyed out.
> 
> This was on Feb. 12. Perhaps things have changed (yet again) since then, but I haven't seen any news. Here's another article about it from the ALA magazine. The author appears to be trying to be neutral, painting Overdrive and Amazon as potential villains.
> http://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/e-content/penguin-reaffirms-support-ala-spurns-overdrive


That was my experience as well GBear. As of Feb 19, at least. Come to think of it, I don't remember even seeing anything about wireless delivery - greyed out or not.


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## tubemonkey (Aug 10, 2010)

mom133d (aka Liz) said:


> That was my experience as well GBear. As of Feb 19, at least. Come to think of it, I don't remember even seeing anything about wireless delivery - greyed out or not.


Try it again. You should be able to get wireless delivery after completing the second step. Just ignore the download popup.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

That's interesting, tubemonkey. I never thought of trying to pull from archives. It's still not as convenient as having the book automatically delivered to you, but easier than the USB download. Thanks for the tip.

Unfortunately, I can't try it right now because I've got unfinished overdue library books that will disappear if I turn on wireless!


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## tubemonkey (Aug 10, 2010)

GBear said:


> That's interesting, tubemonkey. I never thought of trying to pull from archives. It's still not as convenient as having the book automatically delivered to you, but easier than the USB download. Thanks for the tip.
> 
> Unfortunately, I can't try it right now because I've got unfinished overdue library books that will disappear if I turn on wireless!


Just one extra step. Instead of it downloading to your Kindle's home page, it appears in the archives where it can be retrieved.

On the plus side, you don't need to send it separately to each device and app you want to read it on, since it's already in the archives.


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## ljcrochet (Oct 22, 2011)

tubemonkey said:


> It said "xxx, please choose which Kindle you plan to transfer your title to via USB:" My only choice in the "deliver to" menu this time was my Kindle 3; all of my Kindle apps were greyed out. Evidently, Penguin requires you to have an actual Kindle device on your account or you don't get the book.
> 
> I hit the "Continue" button and a download popup appeared. I ignored it, because the book had already been sent to my archives. I opened my Kindle, turned on WiFi, then retrieved the book from my archives.
> 
> No USB cable involved anywhere in the process.


Thanks! 2 of the last 3 library books I took out need the USB cable. One was for DH to read on his kindle apps, I just was able to get it from the archive to get on his iphone.


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