# Middle-grade sales?



## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I know middle-grade fiction doesn't sell as well as most adult fiction (romance, thriller, mystery, etc.), but does anyone have stats for self-pubbed middle-grade fiction? Or would they mind sharing their own numbers? I'd just like to get a sense of how my book is performing compared with other middle-grade books.

Thanks!

Rue


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## aimeeeasterling (Sep 22, 2014)

I don't have much data because my only middle-grade fiction went up for sale two weeks ago.  I did a preorder period on it, which might not have been the best idea since people on my email list weren't interested in something so young.  As a result, I only sold 35 copies over the course of about a month, which meant my original rank once the book went out of the preorder period was pretty low.  Since then, I've sold 52 copies and had 14 borrows, most of which were due to a Sweetreads/Bargainbooksy/Fussy Librarian promotion when the book first went live.

Since raising the price up from $0.99 to $2.99, I'm averaging more like 1 sale and 1 borrow on the title per day.  Not great, but it was an older work that I cleaned up in about ten hours of recent editing (with a homemade cover), so a trickle of sales is okay.  (I'm saving my big promotional energy for my upcoming adult book.)

I hope that helps.  If you're writing about your book The Rabbit Ate My Homework, I'd say you're doing great!


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Just launched mine today and sold a grand total of four copies.  But I'm running some promos this week and hope to give the book a big push the entire month. I'll keep you posted.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks, Aimee. I'm just coming off a promotion, so it's got a good ranking at the moment. Will see how long that lasts! But otherwise my numbers are pretty modest, I think. About 80 sales and 80 borrows in six weeks. Plus six print sales.

Deke, four copies is great! I had 5 sales my first day. Seven my second. And then things went downhill from there.  

Thanks!

Rue


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## BrentKnowles (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks for the sales info. I've been curious about this. I know my kids devour middle-grade fiction and I have long considered writing a middle-grade book but I have worried about the disconnect... whether the target audience actually has access to a Kindle to read it. I suppose I could consider CreateSpace as well, but again, do kids actually buy books this way? Or if their parents do for them?


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Brent, here are a few threads to read that should answer your questions:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,179234.0.html

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,188614.0.html

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,177941.0.html

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## BrentKnowles (Mar 8, 2011)

Rue,

Thanks! I'll dig into this.

- brent


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## Ron Estrada (Nov 23, 2012)

I need to dig in as well. I'll finish my MG this month and am debating whether or not to go trad with it. I'd much rather self pub.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Yeah, I need to get this info too.  My three MG books are doing nothing.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

I released the e-book of The Beef Jerky Gang on September 21 and told no one except a few nephews who I made buy it. I wanted to get the physical proof in hand and go through it a few times for errors. And I found them. So am making the changes with the formatter and should have revised final docs to load up in the next couple days. As soon as I receive a publish date on the print version of the book, then I will tell everyone I know on that day. I have sold 9 copies thus far. Hope to do better once I get the word out. Will keep you all posted on sales and in fact, i would love it if we returned to this thread occasionally to update each other on sales. Thanks! Dan


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## vkloss (Sep 22, 2014)

My one and only book is MG Fantasy. It's been up 6 weeks and is doing pretty well. Between sales and borrows I do between 35 - 40 per day.


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## BrentKnowles (Mar 8, 2011)

vkloss said:


> My one and only book is MG Fantasy. It's been up 6 weeks and is doing pretty well. Between sales and borrows I do between 35 - 40 per day.


Wow, that's awesome. I may have to bug you later with some questions


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

35-40 sales a day? Wow! Congrats! I thought I was doing pretty good with 3-4 sales/borrows!

Daniel, don't hold off promoting. You've only got 30 days on the New Release list. You need to start building momentum now. It's much harder once you fall off the list. I've been trying to revive sales on one of my short stories in my sig. It's much harder to do once the book has been out a while!

Ron, to be honest, I would exhaust trad pub options first before self-publishing. Libraries, reviews, school visits--all much easier for trad pubbed authors. And while ebooks are growing in this market, print is still king. And Createspace isn't enough. 

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## vkloss (Sep 22, 2014)

Sure. There's no magic formula though unfortunately - I wish there was! I think my book straddling the fantasy genre helped as I know I get a lot of fantasy readers.


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## J. B. Cantwell (Mar 26, 2014)

Here's the thread where I've been keeping track of my numbers.
http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=194056.msg2734120#msg2734120

vkloss, those sales are amazing. Can you please share what you've done to promote?

I'm also thinking of heading over to Select after October to try to get xmas borrows. Then, if I bomb with Select, I'll go back in January when my third title comes out.


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## vkloss (Sep 22, 2014)

Honestly I've done nothing out of the ordinary. I have a website, Goodreads and Twitter, but none of them get a huge amount of traffic. I know it's been said before but the importance of your cover and blurb cannot be overstated. This is all still new to me but I think Amazon promotes your book a little when it's first released. If enough people pick it up, it promotes it some more, and you can get on a little roll. However, on the flip side, if it fails to sell, Amazon stops promoting you. I get most of my sales through Amazon recommending my book.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Yup. It's all about the algos.

Rue


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

Victor, that's awesome. Nice job man. 

Rue, I agree, in theory, I just messed up. I thought the time it took to get to and back from the formatter with errors would be a week...and it wasn't. That's on me. But yes, should have had the product right from the get-go and promoted from day one.

Here's a question. I don't have the create space print version ready yet. But once I do, does that start a new 30 day clock as a new title? Or does the 30 day clock end when the first format you publish hits 30?


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## BrentKnowles (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel -- I'm far from an expert and have only done one CreateSpace book but last fall when I released the print version of my Lazy Designer (non fiction) series I had a fairly huge (for me) spike. Pretty sure the print version got added to the new releases... boosting sales of the original ebook.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Good question. But I think your print edition would probably need to sell a lot of copies to land on the HNR list. I've sold six. No HNR for me. :/

Rue


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Has anyone done a MG blog tour?  Do they work?  I need to get a fire lit under my books.  Two are available in paperback, but that's been pretty much a no-go.  I'm working on some other avenues, but I wondered if anyone had luck with a blog tour.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I tried to set one up with Mother Daughter Book Reviews, but was told my book had too many grammar/spelling/punctuation errors (it doesn't, trust me.  ). I won't submit to them again!

I did a Spotlight Giveaway with Batch of Books that went well, I thought. Worth the $25 + $10 gift card.

Here's a list of places to promote/get reviewed (I need to find time to submit to some of them):

http://maggie-lyons.blogspot.ca/p/resources.html

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

As an English person I'm not entirely sure what range "Middle Grade" covers? No such thing here.

I class my books as Young Adult (by which I mean teenagers) but it would appear that the majority of my readers are Age 12


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Middle Grade is a book category that's well established in the traditional publishing world. It's ages 9-12, but can have readers from as young as 7 or 8 and as old as, well, any age! 

Rue


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Oh, and it's quite common for 12-year-olds to make the switch to YA at that age. Tween/lower YA covers ages 10
14. Your books are definitely upper YA, even if you get 12-year-olds reading them.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

ruecole said:


> Oh, and it's quite common for 12-year-olds to make the switch to YA at that age. Tween/lower YA covers ages 10
> 14. Your books are definitely upper YA, even if you get 12-year-olds reading them.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> ...


It helps a lot, thank you. I've wondered about pitching at the "middle grade" promo sites, but now I know not to.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Oh, and it's quite common for 12-year-olds to make the switch to YA at that age. Tween/lower YA covers ages 10
> 14. Your books are definitely upper YA, even if you get 12-year-olds reading them.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> ...


Mine are more tween/lower YA. Bad thing is, many times the only categories available to choose from are Children's and Young Adult/Teen. (And my books aren't a solid fit in either.  ) The characters are in their teens (low and middle), but the storyline is more geared toward action and adventure than it is about relationships or personal issues. I usually suggest readers be age 11 and up.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

I am pleased to see the MG writers around here. I think it's a market on the move. I wanted to post as a way to bookmark, but also I'll come back and mention some things that worked for me. One quick thing: I've found that making the books available EVERYWHERE to be helpful. i.e. available for wholesale orders, available on overdrive, available at all digital marketplaces, and for order THROUGH all physical outlets. I've sold a lot of copies in stores, but the ROI was pitiful to the point I dropped that strategy completely. Pricing too, is important. More later, but really glad to see more MG writers here


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Jena H said:


> Mine are more tween/lower YA. Bad thing is, many times the only categories available to choose from are Children's and Young Adult/Teen. (And my books aren't a solid fit in either.  ) The characters are in their teens (low and middle), but the storyline is more geared toward action and adventure than it is about relationships or personal issues. I usually suggest readers be age 11 and up.


I think you're hamstringing yourself a bit by putting them in too broad an age range. If your MCs are in their teens, then you should definitely put the book into the teen & YA category. That will get you the most bang for your buck as MG readers will read up (starting anywhere from 10-12 years old they start making the switch), but teens tend not to read down. I know it's difficult on Amazon to get into the right categories, but make sure you've got "teen" in your keywords and that should do it. I'd narrow your age ranges too. Depending on the ages of your protags, I'd probably make it 10-14 (or grades 5- to make it clear it's a tween book.

Also, I do think your covers need work. I know it's tough to fork out money on a title that's underperforming, but they don't even look like they're the same series. And they don't have that Action/Adventure style that they should. The first looks more like a humorous contemp. The second, doesn't signal any genre at all!

Check out the books in the Teen & Young Adult>Literature & Fiction>Action & Adventure category: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_0?rh=n%3A133140011%2Cn%3A%21133141011%2Cn%3A154606011%2Cn%3A3511261011%2Cn%3A6064561011%2Cn%3A7006622011&bbn=6064561011&ie=UTF8&qid=1412898591&rnid=6064561011

You'll notice they have very branded titles and styles to them. I'd look into getting something similar done for your books.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Heck, look at Steve's covers. You need something like that on your books!

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

I went after the list posted above and it's helped. Sometimes you can post a guest blog. Or other times do a Q & A like the one here:

http://smack-dab-in-the-middle.blogspot.com/2014/10/interview-with-dale-kutzera.html

I found making the hard copy available for wholesale would have shot the retail price too high, so I'm holding off on that.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

Steve, Nice to see you on the thread. I'll be interested in learning more from you about what has worked. And you seemed to suggest something that Dale just mentioned. Hey Dale!  Are you talking about the 'extended distribution' through Amazon when you said 'wholesale'? Did you mean that by going that route, you would need to bump the retail list price so high (because you needed to show a profit) that it made the list price of the book too high? First of all, is that what you meant?

And then a follow up question for you and Steve and anybody else. What do you think the price threshold is on print paperbacks. In talking with my independent bookstore, they suggested that you were fine at $10.99, $11.99 still probably okay but that once you went over $12, they would expect to see diminished sales. I will be listing The Beef Jerky Gang at $10.99 for the physical book and have signed up for the extended distribution. Am interested to hear about the experience of other people on this thread. Thanks, Dan


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm using IngramSpark for my extended distribution (I'm assuming that's what Dale meant, too). I think it's worth the $49 setup fee!

Here's a really good article explaining how to make the most of Amazon and Ingram for print: http://giacomogiammatteo.com/2014/05/createspace-vs-ingram-spark-part-1/ http://giacomogiammatteo.com/2014/05/createspace-vs-ingram-spark-part-2/

For pricing, I researched similar MG novels and deduced $7.99 seemed to be the price trad pubs used. It was too tight of a margin for me, so I opted for $8.99 and Amazon reduced it to $8.09. So I think that was a good choice. 

My recommendation: opt out of extended distribution on Amazon and price your book at $8.99. Then look into Ingram for extended distribution.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

That is what I was talking about…the Createspace option of that expanded distribution. What they don't tell you is that it will basically force a price of $12 or more. So I didn't opt for that. I'm trying to keep the print price in the vicinity of most MG books in a bookstore…as noted above that's  $8-9.  

I will look into the other distro options. This is my first time venturing outside the comfort of Amazon so just getting through Smashwords was a chore.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Deke said:


> That is what I was talking about...the Createspace option of that expanded distribution. What they don't tell you is that it will basically force a price of $12 or more. So I didn't opt for that. I'm trying to keep the print price in the vicinity of most MG books in a bookstore...as noted above that's $8-9.
> 
> I will look into the other distro options. This is my first time venturing outside the comfort of Amazon so just getting through Smashwords was a chore.


No idea what this is about. My CS expanded distribution MG book sells for $8.99 on Amazon and Book Depository etc.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

What's your royalty take home, Patty? Mine would've been something like $0.75 with Amazon. Vs. $1.80 with Ingram. Plus the shipping is killer for anyone overseas. Ingram has a printer right in Australia. 

Deke, if you can navigate Smashwords, Ingram isn't so hard.

Couple tips for formatting:

Don't include a gutter. They will add their own. 1/2 margins all around and it will come out beautifully.

They want an extra page at the end for adding their bar code. Createspace does it automatically, but Ingram asks for one.

You'll need to get your cover designer to download their specific template for the book, can't just use a generic one like Createspace has.

The cream paper with Ingram is thinner than the cream paper from Createspace, so your spine will be narrower.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

"My CS expanded distribution MG book sells for $8.99 on Amazon and Book Depository etc."

Perhaps your novel is smaller than mine, but mine is 290 pages 5.25x8 format. That's over 7 bucks on their end. On my $8.99 retail price I'm only making a buck a copy, but this is the first of a series and is sort of the loss-leader.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

If it's the book I think it is, it's 155 pages and it's actually priced at $9.99, but Amazon has discounted it to $8.99.

BTW, Dale, my 13-year-old finished your book already. I pre-ordered it, so he started reading it the same day it downloaded. I had to chase him to get to bed that night and I'm sure he still sat up reading it under the covers. 

He wants to know when the sequel will be out. 

Rue


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

Thanks Rue! Very helpful stuff. Have some things to consider. Best, Dan


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

MG novels are typically under 55K. That's about 200 pages.

I have two MG novels. The Far Horizon is SF and sells on Amazon for 9.99. Seven Days to Save the World and Other Homework Projects sells for 8.99 on Amazon.

I use CS, because I looked up the requirements for LS, and thought "I have no time to read all this shit". All I want is for the book to appear on the Book Depository website (Book Depository = NO POSTAGE WORLDWIDE). This is where Australians buy, not on Amazon.

The extended distribution also makes the books show up on a bunch of other sites, including local resellers. I often search ABE for my books and tweet if one of the sellers has a special deal.

Most importantly, I order books myself and sell them at events. I make $1.03 on extended distribution.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

I use LSI and CS for my books. CS for Amazon, LSI for everywhere else. The freedom to play with wholesale discounts is valuable. For example, 50% discount is required to get access to some markets and getting that access (especially initially) can help boost sales for future titles. For that reason At a minimum my list price for my books is double the production cost.  

Also, setting particular discounts can help you get into some vendor sites (i.e. Chapters/indigo) but it's not required for future books to show up on the same site. Also, there are times when 20% discount makes sense and the freedom to make such changes is why LSI is so appealing to me. The setup fee is waved if you order a specific number, which I always do, and the catalog fee is marginal. 

As for what the upper limit is for price, that's when it's important to know who you're selling to. MG novels aren't of often over $10 (at least not the paperback versions). Initially, in my experience anyway, I was selling to book buyers, rather than readers. So the wholesale discount was more important than the list price. I think I've made a transition in that regard and I'm considering dropping some of my prices and reducing the wholesale discounts. 

In the end, I've found that with each new release the sales across all titles increase. For that reason I've spent the last few months fully focused on production. I have a number of titles in the pipe-line and once I make a decision about how best to release them I'll start putting more effort into marketing.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

Hey Steve, thanks for more info. Very helpful. I wanted to get a clarification on something you said in the previous comment. You were talking about selling copies in stores and the ROI on that being bad. Did you mean via Author signings or handselling or something else? Just wanted to understand that comment within the context of you wanting to make your books available as widely as possible. Thanks, Dan


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Steve, you are the Jedi Master at this. Thanks, I say to you. 
Rue…I'm working on the sequel. It's gonna be great!


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

Daniel Kenney said:


> Hey Steve, thanks for more info. Very helpful. I wanted to get a clarification on something you said in the previous comment. You were talking about selling copies in stores and the ROI on that being bad. Did you mean via Author signings or handselling or something else? Just wanted to understand that comment within the context of you wanting to make your books available as widely as possible. Thanks, Dan


Well, getting books into stores is fairly easy, but only on a one-by-one basis. Meaning you have to go to each one and ask the managers, and then bring them books. My goal was to introduce them to the books, show them that they'd sell, and see if that would encourage them to order more themselves direct from the printer. That didn't happen. So I would get set up as either a vendor, or just give the books on consignment. Say I take in a box of 100 books, well the store would want somewhere between 40% and 60% discount off cover price (standard discount). They'd sell out, that wasn't the problem. The problem was they'd want more and they'd want me to deliver them. So I'd have to order them, pay shipping, deliver them. Invoice. etc etc. When all was said and done I was netting pennies and it was taking a lot of time away from my writing. To make it worth your while you'd have to do off-set printing and go for it. I wasn't willing to do that. I did move a lot of copies that way, but like I said, the ROI wasn't worth it.

If the stores would order them themselves it would be worth it, but what books are on shelves in bookstores is not a store management decision. Those decisions are made by buyers in major centers, in offices who negotiate with publishers. Store-by-stores have spots for local authors or consignment, but you need to be the sales force, and that wasn't working for me.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

When I published my MR horse story, it only took about five or six sales to get to near the top of the "children's horse story" lists.  I did no promotion and so, of course, sales were slow and remained that way.

The only interesting observation I made was that, when the book was free it got more response from readers.  It didn't have huge download numbers, but it had immediate reviews, and I heard from kids elsewhere.  When it went back to priced.... crickets.

I have a theory that for indies, children's fiction is a weird zone: paid books have to go through adults (parents, schools, libraries) and therefore indies can't get a toe-hold.  But if they are free, and not of a subject that parents will disapprove, it's possible to get through to kids directly.

This observation is not helpful to anyone who wants to make a living writing children's fiction.  My only thought is, if you write in a similar genre or style for both younger and older audiences, it might be worth making your children's books free, just to grow an audience.

Camille


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Camille,

I think KU may be a good option for kids' ebooks. As I parent, I've been very tempted to sign up for KU just for my son. He has to ask me for every book he wants to buy. With KU, he could one-click to his heart's content (we share the same account, so I can still monitor his reading habits). For my own books (I've got a tween short story along with the middle grade novel) I've actually got borrows from kids. I know because the reviews were clearly written by kids!

Deke, we're looking forward to it!

Steve, what's the discount Chapters/Indigo wants? I've got mine set at 40% is that going to work?

Patty, I checked out Book Depository. Definitely a better deal than buying off Amazon and paying for the exorbitant shipping! My chick lit novelette is $8.71 there. That's a little better than $5.99 + $3.99 shipping in the US from the .com site. Still doesn't improve my expanded distribution royalty, though!  

Thanks!

Rue


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Steve, what's the discount Chapters/Indigo wants? I've got mine set at 40% is that going to work?


It's a blooming mystery. I emailed them and asked and it was 55% discount and returnable. That did it for me, and then I promptly made them not-returnable and the titles remained. That said, I've heard other authors report getting their books listed on there with only 40% discount. So I'm not sure what the magic number is. I say give it some time, see if your book shows up, if it doesn't, consider increasing discount. Wish I could be more helpful. I actually talked quite a bit with LSI's customer service to find out why my books weren't showing up on the Chapters site.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks, Steve. I'll watch and see what happens.

BTW, does LSI charge you to make changes to the discounts, etc.? Or just to the actual files like IS does?

Thanks!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> I know middle-grade fiction doesn't sell as well as most adult fiction (romance, thriller, mystery, etc.), but does anyone have stats for self-pubbed middle-grade fiction? Or would they mind sharing their own numbers? I'd just like to get a sense of how my book is performing compared with other middle-grade books.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Rue


Hi Rue,

I published my first MG novel last year and hate to say that I've only sold a handful of copies. My book (PRINCESS PRIMROSE and the CURSE OF THE BIG SLEEP) is a comedy mash-up of several fairy tales. I've been told over and over (by other MG authors) that kids that age don't buy their own e-books, so what you have to do is convince their parents or teachers to buy them. The authors who are doing OK (not great) are also getting out and doing classroom visits, Skype visits, etc. and are only writing children's books.

I'm in a quagmire about this, because I had planned to continue this as a series. Yet I'm very hesitant to do so, given how few of the first one I sold. It has good reviews, although some told me I need to change the cover, some say the cover is great, some say it's for younger kids--you see why I'm in a quagmire about it. I know I have the "voice" right because I've also written plays for this age group that won awards and have been trad published.

Whew. So all I can say is tread carefully, do your research and GOOD LUCK! (And if anyone with experience in the MG area wants to tear apart my book, feel free. It's the one with the lighter purple cover below.)


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

BrentKnowles said:


> Thanks for the sales info. I've been curious about this. I know my kids devour middle-grade fiction and I have long considered writing a middle-grade book but I have worried about the disconnect... whether the target audience actually has access to a Kindle to read it. I suppose I could consider CreateSpace as well, but again, do kids actually buy books this way? Or if their parents do for them?


Hi Brent, I've been told that they don't have their own Kindles, but I have to wonder. With so many adults trading up, and with all the new colorful ones, it seems natural that eventually kids will get them, too.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I read the Look Inside, Bobbi, and it sounds downright hilarious, so I got a copy. I do agree with those who've said the cover needs work. It's not eye-catching enough for kids or adults. I think your blurb could use a bit more oomph, too.

I see you've got a print edition, which is definitely a first step to getting the book into the hands of MG readers. Have you catalogued it with CIP? It's not difficult to do. As you mentioned, school visits, etc. are an important aspect of success in children's publishing and getting into the library system is the first step.

Regarding if kids have their own Kindles, some definitely do (and absolutely, they get the parents' hand-me-downs!), but from what I understand more kids have tablets and smartphones. Which means they can install whichever ereader app they fancy. My youngest (13) has a table with the Kindle app. He reads on it constantly! My niece (12) reads on her iPod and my youngest sister (also 13) reads on her tablet. So I think it's starting to happen, we're just not quite there yet. Hence the importance of paper books still.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> I read the Look Inside, Bobbi, and it sounds downright hilarious, so I got a copy. I do agree with those who've said the cover needs work. It's not eye-catching enough for kids or adults. I think your blurb could use a bit more oomph, too.
> 
> I see you've got a print edition, which is definitely a first step to getting the book into the hands of MG readers. Have you catalogued it with CIP? It's not difficult to do. As you mentioned, school visits, etc. are an important aspect of success in children's publishing and getting into the library system is the first step.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much, Rue! I've needed somebody who knows what kids like to read now to look at it. I did an alternate cover, but it looked pretty lame compared to the first one, so didn't change it yet. Will work on that, and the blurb. I think I did the CIP thing; if not, will do so. Thanks for the reminder.

Yeah, I write quirky funny stuff and most of my stuff is PG-13 so thought it would be perfect for this age group. I personally love reading MG novels more than others because they do seem to be more quirky/strange than others. Right now I'm reading the Clover Twig series and aspire to that sort of story. I also write cozy mystery stories for adults, but just sort of fell into that; that's not what I'd love to do in my "heart of hearts."

I have another one that was a play that I want to release in early December. It's a Wizard of Oz spoof with lots of other cultural references that the adults will get but there's still a good story there for kids, too.Dot and the (Amazing Technicolor) Quest for the Real Santa Clause.

One thing that somebody mentioned about Princess Primrose--they said that there isn't any ONE main character that a kid could identify with, and that was a no-no. I'm keeping that in mind, too.

I'm eager to hear what you think of the book once you've had a chance to read it, and what age you really think it's best for. :-D


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Well, I'm a fan of fairytale mashups, so it's totally up my alley! I'll let you know what I think when I finish reading it. I'm thinking cuppa tea, blankie and your book after dinner. 

To post a pic, you have to host it somewhere. I find FB is the easiest, since most people have an account there. Simply upload the picture, then click on it to make it full-sized. At the bottom, when you mouse-over the picture, there should be a menu. Click on Options and Get Link. Copy and paste the link into your post, then highlight and hit the image icon. It'll put IMG tags around it. Then it should show up in your post!

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh, OK. I put it on a page on my blog instead of FB. Here's the alternate cover I'm working on. I'm not completely happy with it, although it will be easier to continue in this style if I continue the series.










Thanks for the help, Rue!


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Okay, that's super cute! Bright, colourful! Love it!

One suggestion: use a better font for the title. I recommend one of these (they're $5 each, but really good quality fonts!): http://www.fontspring.com/foundry/kimberly-geswein Maybe one of the scripty ones like Janda Stylish Script or Janda Swirly Twirly or Janda Swirly Girl or Janda Quirky Girl or KG Kiss Me Slowly?

And instead of white, I'd try another colour. Maybe a soft yellow?

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Well, I'm a fan of fairytale mashups, so it's totally up my alley! I'll let you know what I think when I finish reading it. I'm thinking cuppa tea, blankie and your book after dinner. ;
> Rue


:-D Hope you like it.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Thanks, Steve. I'll watch and see what happens.
> 
> BTW, does LSI charge you to make changes to the discounts, etc.? Or just to the actual files like IS does?
> 
> ...


well, that's a tricky question. B/c with some bookstores (chapters included), if you want them to actually stock the books on shelves (and there's only a slim chance you'll get that) they want a list price printed on the book and coded to the barcode. messing with prices and discounts on LSI is free, BUT the price you put on LSI must match the price printed on your cover (if you have a price printed on the cover) for that reason you need to change the cover, and they charge for that.

When I make changes, and I seldom do, I have it scheduled. i.e. when my Dean Curse books are done (after the 4th is released) I'll be updating the covers so the back has pictures of the other books in the series. I'll also be updating the interior with some ads/teasers for the other books in the series. So it'll be then that I make price adjustments.

If you don't care about getting into stores, and now I'm personally much less concerned with such things, I'd leave the price off the back of the book and rely on online sales where you can make changes at will. If you want to push for in store sales, however, putting the price on the back helps. At least, that has been my experience.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

bobbic said:


> Yeah, I write quirky funny stuff and most of my stuff is PG-13 so thought it would be perfect for this age group.


Just a quick note - maybe I misread that and you were referring to something for older teens, but middle readers or middle grades are too young for PG-13. (They are the 9-13 year olds.) PG-13 is for teens OVER 13 -- and younger kids with "parental guidance." PG (no "-13") is for kids of that age.

These days, Hollywood aims everything at the PG-13 rating, because it's got the cachet of an R rating, and teens will come and see it (and under 13s feel grown up watching it). Often they will throw in one gratuitous use of the F-word or some brief nudity to guarantee that rating -- so many people have become accustomed to it, and don't realize that most of what they are seeing in such a movie is really PG material. (Same thing with inflating a G to PG - People think "G" means "pablum" so with any movie that isn't pablum, the studio does something to push the rating up.)

Camille


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Bobbi's book is definitely not PG-13. I wouldn't even call it PG. It's decidedly G rated. 

Loved the story. Very cute and funny. I think the new cover will work great and I hope you see an increase in sales, Bobbi! 

Steve, thanks for the clarification Re: Chapters. I'm not too worried about bookstores carrying my books. I just want them to be orderable through them. My family has balked at the shipping charges from Amazon--and I don't blame them!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Okay, that's super cute! Bright, colourful! Love it!
> 
> One suggestion: use a better font for the title. I recommend one of these (they're $5 each, but really good quality fonts!): http://www.fontspring.com/foundry/kimberly-geswein Maybe one of the scripty ones like Janda Stylish Script or Janda Swirly Twirly or Janda Swirly Girl or Janda Quirky Girl or KG Kiss Me Slowly?
> 
> ...


Thanks, Rue! Will check out the fonts and will play around with colors. I didn't want the cover to look too babyish, but like that the artwork matches inside the book now.


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## Tara Shuler (Apr 24, 2011)

I've been thinking of writing a few middle grade books. I already have some YA and a couple of NA titles. Should I use a new pen name for Middle Grade?


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Another one, with a font I already had. Changed the text to yellow. Better? Does it say middle grade?


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Tara Shuler said:


> I've been thinking of writing a few middle grade books. I already have some YA and a couple of NA titles. Should I use a new pen name for Middle Grade?


I think it depends on how sexy your others are.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Mine are more tween/lower YA. Bad thing is, many times the only categories available to choose from are Children's and Young Adult/Teen. (And my books aren't a solid fit in either.  ) The characters are in their teens (low and middle), but the storyline is more geared toward action and adventure than it is about relationships or personal issues. I usually suggest readers be age 11 and up.


Yeah, that's an issue for those who write for the older middle graders. One of my reviewers even mentioned that it was a good "read aloud" book. Hmm. To me, that says "very young kid" not middle grade, but it was a good review otherwise. I'm even thinking of making my future characters older just to get out of this MG hole. BUT then the readers expect more romance, boy/girl stuff, I think.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

bobbic said:


> Yeah, that's an issue for those who write for the older middle graders. One of my reviewers even mentioned that it was a good "read aloud" book. Hmm. To me, that says "very young kid" not middle grade, but it was a good review otherwise. I'm even thinking of making my future characters older just to get out of this MG hole. BUT then the readers expect more romance, boy/girl stuff, I think.


A lot of families still do reading aloud as a family activity. Middle-grade books and adult books suited for all ages are very popular. We used to read Sherlock Holmes and P.G. Wodehouse. One winter, when I was in college, we took turns reading the unabridged Les Miserables.

So..... don't take "good read aloud" book as meaning it's for younger children. It may mean "for all ages."

Camille


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

bobbic said:


> Another one, with a font I already had. Changed the text to yellow. Better? Does it say middle grade?


The font would definitely have to be darker, or outlined/shadowed in some way to make the title stand out. Yellow on light blue isn't very easily visible. At a glance, I'd say the cover looks 'younger' middle grade.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Jena H said:


> The font would definitely have to be darker, or outlined/shadowed in some way to make the title stand out. Yellow on light blue isn't very easily visible. At a glance, I'd say the cover looks 'younger' middle grade.


My first instinct would be to try lighter -- maybe almost white -- or go to black. (Or very dark magenta.) Not font of outlines or drop shadows for that image style.

The problem with a mid-tone background is that you can't use mid-tone fonts.

Camille


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Just a quick note - maybe I misread that and you were referring to something for older teens, but middle readers or middle grades are too young for PG-13. (They are the 9-13 year olds.) PG-13 is for teens OVER 13 -- and younger kids with "parental guidance." PG (no "-13") is for kids of that age.
> 
> These days, Hollywood aims everything at the PG-13 rating, because it's got the cachet of an R rating, and teens will come and see it (and under 13s feel grown up watching it). Often they will throw in one gratuitous use of the F-word or some brief nudity to guarantee that rating -- so many people have become accustomed to it, and don't realize that most of what they are seeing in such a movie is really PG material. (Same thing with inflating a G to PG - People think "G" means "pablum" so with any movie that isn't pablum, the studio does something to push the rating up.)
> 
> Camille


Camille,

When I said "PG-13" I meant no cursing, sex, nothing that would offend anybody, etc. I just used it as a generic term.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> A lot of families still do reading aloud as a family activity. Middle-grade books and adult books suited for all ages are very popular. We used to read Sherlock Holmes and P.G. Wodehouse. One winter, when I was in college, we took turns reading the unabridged Les Miserables.
> 
> So..... don't take "good read aloud" book as meaning it's for younger children. It may mean "for all ages."
> 
> Camille


Thanks, Camille. Good to know. I took it to mean like a picture book, but I see what you mean now.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Bobbi's book is definitely not PG-13. I wouldn't even call it PG. It's decidedly G rated.
> 
> Loved the story. Very cute and funny. I think the new cover will work great and I hope you see an increase in sales, Bobbi!
> 
> ...


Thanks so much, Rue! Wouldn't hurt to try, huh?  I just realized that I'll also have to go through the hoo-hah of changing the cover for the Createspace books, too. NOT my favorite thing to do.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

You don't have to change the pb cover. It's okay if they don't match. 

I love the new font, but you need to make the colour a lighter yellow or white or darker. Maybe a magenta or purple. I think the story is definitely lower middle grade and will appeal to the 8-10 crowd. And te cover now reflects that.

Tara, you can use the same name as your YA, but if there's a lot of sex in your NA, maybe use a pen name (maybe a variation of your currently using?). But generally if you're clear with your branding wht's what, it shouldn't be too much of an issue. I know several authors who use one name across several genres. 

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> My first instinct would be to try lighter -- maybe almost white -- or go to black. (Or very dark magenta.) Not font of outlines or drop shadows for that image style.
> 
> The problem with a mid-tone background is that you can't use mid-tone fonts.
> 
> Camille


It was white and I changed it. LOL. I just uploaded it and will see what it looks like on there. Will probably change it,though. I know it won't work for the printed book the way it is. Thanks everybody!


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> You don't have to change the pb cover. It's okay if they don't match.
> Rue


YAY. LOL. I actually have mis-matched covers on my western mystery, although they're more similar than these two. Will play around with the font colors again.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

And one more time! I promise--LOL


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Looking good! The title is nice and easy to read now. Only thing is Princess Primrose looks a bit faded to me. Try increasing the contrast so the blacks are a bit blacker.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

bobbic said:


> Camille,
> 
> When I said "PG-13" I meant no cursing, sex, nothing that would offend anybody, etc. I just used it as a generic term.


That's the thing: the _generic_ meaning of PG-13 is that there IS cursing and sex -- often quite a lot of it -- that's the point of adding the "13".

"PG" (without the 13) is the generic term I think you mean. Even though that means some cursing and sex too, most people equate it with "G".


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

Tara Shuler said:


> I've been thinking of writing a few middle grade books. I already have some YA and a couple of NA titles. Should I use a new pen name for Middle Grade?


I personally don't think you need to. Look at Neil Gaiman. I used to be on the pen-name side, but changed my mind a while ago. I have an adult UF I'll be releasing one of these days and it'll go under my regular name. Lots of authors write in both. some use pen names, some don't. I think as long as you're clear in the description about who the target audience is, it's all good.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

I'll be releasing a collaboration with Joe Konrath soon. It will be violent and inappropriate as hell so I will be using the pen name Ted Shannon for that. My wife would kill me if a kid started to read it, so the pen name keeps her happy. Best of luck! Dan


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> A lot of families still do reading aloud as a family activity. Middle-grade books and adult books suited for all ages are very popular. We used to read Sherlock Holmes and P.G. Wodehouse. One winter, when I was in college, we took turns reading the unabridged Les Miserables.
> 
> So..... don't take "good read aloud" book as meaning it's for younger children. It may mean "for all ages."
> 
> Camille


I must be one of the few people in the world who has read Harry Potter aloud. Yes, all seven books. By the end, my kids were too big to be read stories, but they were fighting over the book, so this seemed a good compromise 

I wrote my MG SF book specifically to be read aloud by a parent. There are a few "parent" references in the book that kids won't get but that might amuse a parent. I have a wonderful mother/daughter review on B&N where this worked just great for both of them.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I read aloud to both my kids until they were about 12/13. I don't think having "great read aloud" means the book is geared too young! Plus teachers will read aloud at least until grade four or five.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Katherine Roberts (Apr 4, 2013)

This is a good thread! I've been a bit distracted since starting work in a University this month, but I write children's books. I've been published traditionally in the UK, and over here kids seem to be more into print. My latest series (9-12) is available in hardcover and paperback as well as ebook format. The e-sales are much lower than the print sales. I did a blog tour for those books, but I'm not sure how much effect it had - it was set up by my publisher and targeted teachers, parents and librarians rather than the young readers themselves. I also did a couple of school tours with my publisher, selling paper books to the kids at the events - those worked very well.

With my indie ebooks (opp backlist), I've noticed that the second-hand paperbacks sell almost as well as the ebooks. I haven't done POD for those books, since I can't compete with the second-hand prices. Having a free title definitely seems to help - I had one permafree for a while over the summer. I also see quite a few sales at Apple itunes, but in general my ebook sales are small.

I think the main stumbling block to sales is that younger readers can't buy their own books. That's why free books work, and also borrows. I've heard some parents give their children an upper limit of 99p to spend on an ebook, so cheaper titles might be the way to go?

Rue, I still haven't got around to changing my Spellfall cover! Must do that.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Hi Katherine,

I agree with everything you've said. 

I know it's hard to compete with low prices, but I'd think some kids would want a new copy, too. Look into Ingram for expanded distribution. You don't have to jack the price up to make a decent royalty like you do with Amazon. My book is $8.99 in US, Canada, and Australia, and 5.99 in the UK and 6.99 in Europe (haven't got the numbers right in front of me, but pretty sure that's what I went with).

Hope that helps!

Oh, and whenever you decide on the cover, just let me know. 

Rue


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## Katherine Roberts (Apr 4, 2013)

ruecole said:


> I know it's hard to compete with low prices, but I'd think some kids would want a new copy, too. Look into Ingram for expanded distribution. You don't have to jack the price up to make a decent royalty like you do with Amazon. My book is $8.99 in US, Canada, and Australia, and 5.99 in the UK and 6.99 in Europe (haven't got the numbers right in front of me, but pretty sure that's what I went with).
> 
> Rue


Thanks, Rue. I'll certainly take a look at Ingram. Those prices don't sound too bad for paperbacks, and I agree some of the secondhand copies out there are a bit tatty. (I bought a couple myself recently, needing some print copies of my own books to give to people, so if nothing else it would be good to be able to get hold of new copies for those occasions!) Producing a print cover might be a challenge, but there are always designers like yourself who provide covers for print.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Wow, lots of great information here. Thanks to everyone who commented on my book cover. Odd thing, i finally uploaded it to Amazon, the said it was live, and it still has the old cover! Whassup with THAT, I wonder? Anyway, another weird thing, I had added some sales stuff to it and updated that a few weeks ago, and that's what showed up today! Weird.

I'm in a big quandry what to do at this point. Others tell me that the new cover is too "picture book-ish" because of the bright colors. Others said the old one is too dark for a mystery. Wait, this isn't a mystery--not really.

THEN Amazon put it in collections, which is isn't. No wonder the readers are confused about this book. It suffers greatly from a lack of something. LOL. This is why mash-ups are SO hard to sell/market.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

I'm pretty new to this but I uploaded an updated version of my file to KDP and they said in went live. (t says the new version is live and the new updated version is showing in the look inside but is not yet reflected in the actual kindle book. My guess is sometimes these things take a couple days to sort out but I'm not sure.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

Hey Steve, If you ever have time, I would be really interested to hear a little more about your strategy going forward based on what you have already seen work and not work. Your books have beautiful covers, are branded, are well written and you appear to be doing everything right. But you've said in this thread that you're going to do things different and I just would be curious to hear more about that. Thanks! Dan


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## Adrian P (Aug 5, 2014)

ruecole said:


> I know middle-grade fiction doesn't sell as well as most adult fiction (romance, thriller, mystery, etc.), but does anyone have stats for self-pubbed middle-grade fiction? Or would they mind sharing their own numbers? I'd just like to get a sense of how my book is performing compared with other middle-grade books.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Rue


How does an author even compare how they're doing compared to others in any genre? Success is just all over the board...


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Adrian P said:


> How does an author even compare how they're doing compared to others in any genre? Success is just all over the board...


Well, let's see. One easy way is if one book sells ten and the other book sells ZERO. LOL


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

Daniel Kenney said:


> Hey Steve, If you ever have time, I would be really interested to hear a little more about your strategy going forward based on what you have already seen work and not work. Your books have beautiful covers, are branded, are well written and you appear to be doing everything right. But you've said in this thread that you're going to do things different and I just would be curious to hear more about that. Thanks! Dan


Thanks for the kind words, Daniel. I appreciate it. I try really hard to put out quality and try to be thoughtful in terms of content and design. I released GLIMPSE in 2013, so I do still consider myself a newbie. There are a few other authors (some on KB, some not) who I'd strongly suggest checking out: HY HANNA, MARCUS EMERSON, AJ COSMO, MJ WARE, KC HILTON, SIMON HAYNES, EG FOLEY&#8230; to name a few. I have sold a few thousand copies of my books, but I think you'll find the above mentioned authors are kicking some serious tail.

Additionally, I have read many of the books by the authors mentioned above, and can tell you they are very worth checking out. It's not just the branding or marketing that they're excellent at, they each write like serious bosses. At the risk of sounding like a stalker, I'll admit I even have google alerts set for some of them just in case they share some glimmer of wisdom that I can gobble up.

What's really interesting is that some are fully self-published, some have hybrid careers, some write across genres and markets, some focus entirely on kid-lit&#8230; It's kind of inspiring to see authors like the above (and others on this very thread for that matter) forging this path and being successful at it.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

Thanks alot Steve. Appreciate the recommendation to check out those authors. Some i'd heard of and others I had not. It seems the only sort of truism we've heard about self-publishing for middle grade is that up til now, it doesn't work too well. Would love it if new wisdom emerged about how to crack this difficult nut. 

Rue, you seem to have a ton of experience and I'm curious if you know of another thread out there where successful strategies for middle grade are being shared? If so, I would love to take a look at that. There's a part of me that refuses to believe you can't be successful doing this. I know kids read e-books. I know more kids will read e-books next year and then year after than currently. I would love to learn from the people out there who are slowly, but surely, figuring this middle grade thing out.  Thanks everybody for contributing to the thread. Daniel


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I'd say Steve has more experience than I do! Though I've been at the MG writing thing for about four years now. Tried the trad pub route for the first couple years. Only now decided to try self-pubbing my kids' stuff. So I'm learning along with everyone else!

There are a few good threads I've bookmarked from the last year that I thought had quality info in them:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,179234.0.html

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,188614.0.html

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,177941.0.html

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,165265.0.html

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,174256.0.html

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,196376.0.html

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Daniel Kenney said:


> Thanks alot Steve. Appreciate the recommendation to check out those authors. Some i'd heard of and others I had not. It seems the only sort of truism we've heard about self-publishing for middle grade is that up til now, it doesn't work too well. Would love it if new wisdom emerged about how to crack this difficult nut.
> 
> Rue, you seem to have a ton of experience and I'm curious if you know of another thread out there where successful strategies for middle grade are being shared? If so, I would love to take a look at that. There's a part of me that refuses to believe you can't be successful doing this. I know kids read e-books. I know more kids will read e-books next year and then year after than currently. I would love to learn from the people out there who are slowly, but surely, figuring this middle grade thing out. Thanks everybody for contributing to the thread. Daniel


Hi Daniel,

I'm not Rue, but am also stubborn enough to believe that we can crack this "nut." Many of you have said that you have kids that read e-books, or you read to them. Maybe it's an easy "sell" here because there are so many indie authors and e-book owners. Out in other places online, not so easy. Maybe because there are so many really good commercially published MG books, or because kids do read according to peer pressure. It's hard to say.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Daniel Kenney said:


> I'm pretty new to this but I uploaded an updated version of my file to KDP and they said in went live. (t says the new version is live and the new updated version is showing in the look inside but is not yet reflected in the actual kindle book. My guess is sometimes these things take a couple days to sort out but I'm not sure.


Thanks. This same thing happened with my last book and I freaked. LOL. The inside went live a whole day before the outside did. Now I have two covers; one for the e-book and one for the paperback. I'm going to leave it like that for now.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Looking at those authors Steve listed, one thing they all have in common: more than one book! And often in a series!

So, if you want to succeed as a middle-grade author, get writing the next book! 

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Looking at those authors Steve listed, one thing they all have in common: more than one book! And often in a series!
> 
> So, if you want to succeed as a middle-grade author, get writing the next book!
> 
> Rue


Yeah, I know. I have a mind block, waiting to see if the first one sells *any* before I write the others. I have so many other things I want to write. At least the MG books don't have to be really, really (really) long. LOL. That's another reason I like them.


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

I saw recently that Amazon is marketing a Kindle Fire specifically for children, in kid popular colors and 'tough' screens. Wonder if that might be a hot Christmas item. If so it might help open up ebook sales.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

I totally agree it's a numbers game. More titles means more visibility, so get more titles. I noticed a sharp uptick in sales with each new release, and they didn't even have to be related. Also, I tend to think that while eBooks are great, don't neglect print with MG - and don't neglect design. Your print books will be judged by people who know books (librarians/teachers/parents) and if you haven't taken care with design and layout, it's going to be a challenge to get them to take a shot and order your books. 

I have been fortunate to sell a lot of print copies. But I've been really targeting book-buyers rather than readers this past while. I am going to shift strategy next year - or rather, I'll be expanding my current strategy and adding to it a push towards targeting readers. But I know how much time that takes, so before I move forward on my next round of marketing, I wanted to have several new books completed and ready to go.


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## KidSlumber (Aug 13, 2012)

Melisse_Aires said:


> I saw recently that Amazon is marketing a Kindle Fire specifically for children, in kid popular colors and 'tough' screens. Wonder if that might be a hot Christmas item. If so it might help open up ebook sales.


Thanks for posting this. Depending on the price, it could give our market a real boost. I may have to revise my long standing advice to children not to play with fire.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

KidSlumber said:


> Thanks for posting this. Depending on the price, it could give our market a real boost. I may have to revise my long standing advice to children not to play with fire.


Good one! LOL. Have y'all also noticed that Amazon is pushing their "new" kid's book publishing program? I got an e-mail not long ago, and now there's a link on the Dashboard to get information. So maybe that will help, OR it will open it up to lots more competition.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

That's actually really helpful Rue. I appreciate it. Dan


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

I posted this earlier on another thread, but figured it might be useful here, too. When it comes to MG, series seem to do far better than stand-alones.



Maggie Dana said:


> I wasn't sure what sort of results I'd get, but I took the plunge and put the first book (Keeping Secrets) in my middle-grade series up for free on Saturday and Sunday (it was also part of a week-long blog tour with some other horsey authors). For promotion, I spent about $100 with:
> 
> Kindle Nation Daily
> BargainBooksy
> ...


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

7400 downloads, Maggie? That's awesome. I am looking forward to hearing how your reviews are impacted by that. You didn't mention Bookbub, but was that one of the sites you used too? 

Way to go!


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks for the information, Maggie! Those downloads are awesome. And I love your covers, too.

My new cover finally went live on Amazon, so we'll see how that goes.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

Maggie! Those downloads are awesome, well done. And I love your covers too. My daughter is horse book crazy so I just purchased your first one. I am excited to have her read it. Best of luck, Dan


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Maggie, I saw your stats on the other thread. Thanks for sharing! And congrats on the amazing free run!

I think you definitely prove that series are the way to go! 

Rue


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## Scott Pixello (May 4, 2013)

Hi folks,
I'm a bit late to this thread & I'll try not to repeat the wise words so far. I've been self pubbing about two years now and due to my general immaturity seem to have gravitated towards the YA and MG end of the market. One of my main difficulties is not just accessing MG readers, who are not always the prime purchasers, but in deciding how to pitch a book that appeals across age ranges. My _Keith_ series works for adults wanting something a little different from conventional historical fiction but it also taps into humour and sensibilities of kids right down to the 3rd-4th Grade. 
Also my covers divide opinion- some like em some hate em. They're intended to evoke an indie movie feel and are supposed to reflect the nature of my characters who are often precocious children or childish adults. It's a related problem to the broad age range. I'm trying write books that aren't like anything else out there and so I want them to look different too. That's fine until you try and market them. It's a slow-burn process but I'm getting there. Number 10 out soon.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Yeah, it's hard when your books could appeal to both adults who love quirky humor AND kids. That's the market I'm trying to tap with my PRINCESS PRIMROSE book, but not being very effective at it. I have another one coming out for Christmas, and don't want to screw it up. It's a spoof of The Wizard of Oz with cultural references galore that only adults of a certain age would get. Yet it won an award for a children's play. 
I maybe not even try to market it as a kid's book. Haven't decided yet...


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Bobbi, have you set up a promo for Princess Primrose yet? I recommend GenrePulse ($5) or FussyLibrarian ($6). Got a nice sales bump from both of them. Set the book to $0.99 or, better, free for a day. If you're not promoting the book to bump the ranking, it's not going to do anything, unfortunately. 

Also, I think most books written for kids also need to appeal to adults, too. They're the gatekeepers after all. So you need to appeal to them first. And heck, LOTS of adults read and enjoy middle-grade (parents, teachers, librarians, etc.). So you don't lose anything putting books into the children's category as the adults will still be shopping for them.

I write primarily for the kids, but I also like to throw a few fun things in for the adults, too. Doesn't mean my books are suddenly adult books.

JMVHO

Rue


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

> My Keith series works for adults wanting something a little different from conventional historical fiction but it also taps into humour and sensibilities of kids right down to the 3rd-4th Grade.





> Yeah, it's hard when your books could appeal to both adults who love quirky humor AND kids. That's the market I'm trying to tap with my PRINCESS PRIMROSE book, but not being very effective at it


That is an interesting dilemma, Scott and Bobbi. I'm curious, have either of you ever tried to approach public library librarians? In my experience it hasn't just been a necessity to have the age range clearly laid out, but that they expect the target audience to be even more narrow. Additionally I've often been asked what three books mine would be most like. They're not trying to test me (well, perhaps there is some element of that), but more than that they're wondering where it should be shelved. If they have to read it to decide, I think they'd be unlikely to take it. I'd be curious if you guys have been faced with those questions.


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## Scott Pixello (May 4, 2013)

I personally haven't been down the library route- getting books into UK libraries can be a bit of a stressful ordeal (I'm a Brit living in Germany). The generic question is perfectly fair I think because where to shelve the thing is a practical daily reality of libraries. If they did accept your book, you'd want them to put it somewhere suitable so it's sensible to make a suggestion. Further issues arise here as my books generally are written to be funny but to suggest 'humour' risks ghettoising them in a genre which everyone says they like (when surveyed) but actually few people go directly to. I'd probably opt for an age bracket if it was available or even specifically 'Books for boys' because I've often had a reluctant male reader in mind.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Scott, I downloaded your first book. I read the first page of the Look Inside and it's really quite good. Love the quirky voice.

My only question: why have you not got it categorized in Children's Books?

Rue


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## Scott Pixello (May 4, 2013)

I personally haven't been down the library route- getting books into UK libraries can be a bit of a stressful ordeal (I'm a Brit living in Germany). The generic question is perfectly fair I think because where to shelve the thing is a practical daily reality of libraries. If they did accept your book, you'd want them to put it somewhere suitable so it's sensible to make a suggestion. Further issues arise here as my books generally are written to be funny but to suggest 'humour' risks ghettoising them in a genre which everyone says they like (when surveyed) but actually few people go directly to. I'd probably opt for an age bracket if it was available or even specifically 'Books for boys' because I've often had a reluctant male reader in mind.


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## Scott Pixello (May 4, 2013)

Rue, which book are we talking about?


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Your first Keith Ramsbottom book. 

Rue


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## Scott Pixello (May 4, 2013)

OK, Rue. As I think you'll see from reading it, the language and sometimes the complexity of thought can be understood by 10+ or even a more precocious 8+ but it isn't intrinsically a children's book and I want adults to try it too. So far, adults who've read it have not felt hoodwinked into reading 'a kids' book' and younger readers (so far, at least) don't appear to have got lost. I'd rather not designate it as a children's book if I don't have to. Does that sound stupid?


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Let me read it first and I'll let you know what I think. 

Rue


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> 7400 downloads, Maggie? That's awesome. I am looking forward to hearing how your reviews are impacted by that. You didn't mention Bookbub, but was that one of the sites you used too?
> 
> Way to go!


Thanks, Steve. But no . . . Bookbub wasn't a player this time. I applied and got turned down. I will try again in December. As for reviews . . . a couple of new ones (both 5 stars) but I have no idea if they were because of this promo.

When it comes to middle grade books and reviews, most of my reviewers are kids and they're uniformly kind and enthusiastic.


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

bobbic said:


> Thanks for the information, Maggie! Those downloads are awesome. And I love your covers, too.
> 
> My new cover finally went live on Amazon, so we'll see how that goes.


Thanks, Bobbic. Good luck with your books. Keep us posted.


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

Daniel Kenney said:


> Maggie! Those downloads are awesome, well done. And I love your covers too. My daughter is horse book crazy so I just purchased your first one. I am excited to have her read it. Best of luck, Dan


Thanks, Dan. Hope your horse-crazy daughter enjoys the book and doesn't drive you into bankruptcy by loving horses (they are NOT a cheap hobby!)


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Generally, American libraries must order books through Ingram or Baker & Taylor.  So your book must be available through one of those distributors.

If you just drop your book (or several copies) off at the local library, it is likely to end up in the library book sale.

However, if your book is available through Ingram, sometimes you can request that the library purchase it (as a library patron.)  Our county library had a form you could fill out to request that the library get a specific book for their collection although I think they may have discontinued that practice.  Requesting it didn't mean it would be purchased, but it did get the purchasing agent to look at the book and assess it.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Bobbi, have you set up a promo for Princess Primrose yet? I recommend GenrePulse ($5) or FussyLibrarian ($6). Got a nice sales bump from both of them. Set the book to $0.99 or, better, free for a day. If you're not promoting the book to bump the ranking, it's not going to do anything, unfortunately.
> 
> Also, I think most books written for kids also need to appeal to adults, too. They're the gatekeepers after all. So you need to appeal to them first. And heck, LOTS of adults read and enjoy middle-grade (parents, teachers, librarians, etc.). So you don't lose anything putting books into the children's category as the adults will still be shopping for them.
> 
> ...


I did some of that back last year when it came out first. It's been free (lots of downloads) and 99-cents. Will put those two on my list for next time. Thanks!


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I asked this on its own thread, but got no responses. Thought maybe the kidlit authors in this thread might have some insights for me:

With the help of keywords, I've managed to get my adult fiction titles into anywhere from 8 to 11 categories/sub-categories. But my children's titles are only in 4-6 categories. And the extra categories for two of them are the Short Reads categories. Otherwise, they've each got four (or basically two each in Books and Kindle Books).

I've tried every sort of keyword combo I can think of, including the ones recommended on Amazon's special keyword page to get them into more categories--especially my novel. This past weekend I thought maybe changing the categories for my novel would help. Maybe instead of choosing Rabbits I should choose Pets and then, since I've got Rabbit in the title, description, and keywords, it would put the book into both categories. Nope. Now my book is in Pets, but not Rabbits. (Which I'm okay with for now. Broader category, yet my book is still sitting on the first page of the bestseller's list.  )

Why can I get my adult books into a dozen categories and sub-categories, but can't seem to do the same with my children's books? Are children's books just not allowed to be in more categories/sub-categories than adult fiction? So frustrating!

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks!

Rue


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

I've got the same problem, Rue. Some of my books are ranked high enough (i.e., less than 100) in several categories for which I've used keywords, but they only appear in two.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Sigh. That's what I was afraid of. I've been checking everyone I know with kidlit books to see how many categories they've got. Looks like most have 4 to 6 at most, too. Bummer. My book could easily be charting on multiple lists in the animals categories, plus probably several others. But nope.

Ah, well. I'll see how it goes the next week or so in the new categories. I may move it into Pets and Rabbits.

Thanks!

Rue


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## cvwriter (May 16, 2011)

I have a variety keywords but I only have 2 categories with Angels Club: Horses and friendship. If you write fantasy or one of the branching categories that they list under KDP, you can get more. Mine's general, contemporary fiction. I don't think they have multicultural or diversity for kids, which is sad. I wish I could also get farm life and bullying.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks, Courtney.

Wonder why the restriction on the kids' books?

Rue


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## cvwriter (May 16, 2011)

I don't know. I have many categories for _Sapphire Reign_, a suspense novel. It has categories I did not pick or give keywords for like "teen". It's a sequel to a YA book, but it's adult, opening ten years later. It just has a couple under-18 POVs mixed with 3 adults. The only way the system can get that teen info is in the description.

But my MG book should get more. It's not fair. I see some books with 8 or more.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

"Teen" is a keyword that will get you into the Teen & Young Adult category. If the word isn't actually in your list of seven keywords, then it looks like Amazon may screen your description for keywords, too. Interesting.

I do agree it's not fair, though! I don't know how much it would help sales, but it's gotta help at least some to have access to some more categories!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Sigh. That's what I was afraid of. I've been checking everyone I know with kidlit books to see how many categories they've got. Looks like most have 4 to 6 at most, too. Bummer. My book could easily be charting on multiple lists in the animals categories, plus probably several others. But nope.
> 
> Ah, well. I'll see how it goes the next week or so in the new categories. I may move it into Pets and Rabbits.
> 
> ...


My PRINCESS PRIMROSE seems to be in six? I think? But I'm not sure why, or how it got in them. Maybe certain keywords launches you into others?


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## Helen Laycock (Apr 10, 2012)

I have NO idea how people are getting 40 sales a day!

*goes for a lie-down*

I have eight MG books (I'm a Brit and had to learn what that was, too) and, if I'm lucky, I get a handful of sales a week. I don't have a website, though I'm sure that must help. I have a blog which I should visit more, although I suspect children aren't interested in blogs. I am not pushy. At all. 

I think being pushy helps...

To get a sudden rise in rankings, you need several people to buy your book on the same day, so if you've got generous family and friends, maybe you should try a bit of bribery. I've never tried it, but I bet that would get you into the top hundred! As I said, I'm not pushy.

I think the absolute key is to visit schools with a physical book or books. Engage the children, talk about what inspired you, read extracts and, hey presto, you have interested customers. That's my plan, so I must be getting a bit pushy...


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Bobbi, you've obviously chosen one children's category and one adult category when setting up your book. Hence, two categories (one book, one Kindle) and four adult categories on Amazon.

Helen, yes to get a push in rankings, advertising helps. I've found Fussy Librarian and GenrePulse to be the most effective of the sites I've tried.

I'm not sure if it's different in England, but here in North America, it's important to get into the library system if you want to set up school visits, etc. I'm in the process of doing that.

Here are the steps:

First, catalogue your book with CIP. They'll send you information to add to your copyright page. 
http://www.loc.gov/publish/cip/ 
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/cip/index-e.html
Don't forget to submit two copies--either digital or print or both if you've catalogued both formats.
This gets you into the system.

Next, look into getting reviews from recognized reviewers. Midwest Book Reviews will review self-published books. Just follow their submission guidelines. They also have a list of other sites that will review. If you've got the money, Kirkus, Publisher's Weekly, and (I think) School Library Journal will review for a fee. I know I don't have that kind of money, but librarians take those reviews seriously, so it's something to consider.

Once you've got your book in the catalogue and a review or two from recognized reviewers, then you can start approaching schools and libraries about doing visits. I'm sure there are some authors who've had success doing visits without getting into the library system, but I understand it makes it MUCH easier if you take the extra steps.

Hope that helps!

Rue

(Edited for clarity.)


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Don't you have to be a small publisher (5 titles a year) to get a CIP?  I looked into that months ago and though that was a requirement. They won't deal with self-publishers with just a title or two.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Oh, looks like you're right. What a bunch of bums! I had no problem getting my book catalogued here in Canada. I think the only requirement they had was I had to register my publishing company name.

Anyway, here's an article by Joel Friedlander that walks you through the process in the USA: 
http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2010/03/cip-what-it-means-how-to-read-it-who-should-get-it/

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

Yeah, in Canada there's a big push to support cultural industries, so there are a number of programs that help authors. CIP and the Library Archives is just a couple of them. Many of the other benefits are still aimed at trade published authors, but not sure if that's changing anytime soon.


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## Helen Laycock (Apr 10, 2012)

Rue and Steve, lots of advice there.

I'll have to see if there's something similar here in the UK.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

I have not had any luck with my middle grade series, The Arthur Paladin Chronicles. Haven't brought over many new readers, and I have had trouble converting my fan base from my other series. I have faith that the books are well done, but MG is a harder sale for ebooks. Print is still the king when it comes to MG.

I'm thinking of changing the categories to YA. It's upper MG, and I think it will work fine as a lower YA. Hopefully, that will help with sales. Along with some promotions to get reviews and what-not.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

I launched the first Andy book on the 6th and scheduled a series of promos.  So far I sell typically a couple books at .99 each day. So the pattern of slow-take-off for first in series is holding true.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> I have not had any luck with my middle grade series, The Arthur Paladin Chronicles. Haven't brought over many new readers, and I have had trouble converting my fan base from my other series. I have faith that the books are well done, but MG is a harder sale for ebooks. Print is still the king when it comes to MG.
> 
> I'm thinking of changing the categories to YA. It's upper MG, and I think it will work fine as a lower YA. Hopefully, that will help with sales. Along with some promotions to get reviews and what-not.


I see that the MG books you're talking about aren't in your sig - Do you mind if I ask if your YA books (assuming the ones in your sig are YA) sell well? Do you tend to sell more eBooks or Print with those ones? Also, I'm curious if you plan on adding print to your MG books (I didn't see them when I looked it up).

Thanks for sharing. Your books have always been ones I've taken notice of so I'm very curious about your journey and business decisions.

Cheers


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> I see that the MG books you're talking about aren't in your sig - Do you mind if I ask if your YA books (assuming the ones in your sig are YA) sell well? Do you tend to sell more eBooks or Print with those ones? Also, I'm curious if you plan on adding print to your MG books (I didn't see them when I looked it up).
> 
> Thanks for sharing. Your books have always been ones I've taken notice of so I'm very curious about your journey and business decisions.
> 
> Cheers


Thank you! Signature updated!

My YA books sold well up until June of this year. That's my fault. Book 4: The Blood King's Apprentice is way overdue for reasons both personal and professional (this was a hard freaking book to write!). Not counting free copies of Book 1, I think I've sold about 7,000 copies of Storm Phase books. I sell almost as well on B&N as Amazon. And because Books 1 and 2 are free on Wattpad, I sell a fair number of copies of Book 3 on Smashwords, Google Play, and iBooks.

I hardly sold any print copies at all until this June when I moved Book 1 to perma-free. Since then, I've started selling about 10 print a month. Far, far from spectacular, but ten times more than before.

Arthur Paladin 1: The Shadowed Manse is available in print. The print on The Warlock's Gambit is on the way. I was so busy finishing the first round of revisions on Blood King that the print got delayed. Print has been a mere formality for me so far, but hopefully that's changing.

I love the covers and the branding of your books, btw. Very, very nice.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Your covers are pretty fabulous as well.  Fun and adventurous!


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Oh, looks like you're right. What a bunch of bums! I had no problem getting my book catalogued here in Canada. I think the only requirement they had was I had to register my publishing company name.
> 
> Anyway, here's an article by Joel Friedlander that walks you through the process in the USA:
> http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2010/03/cip-what-it-means-how-to-read-it-who-should-get-it/
> ...


You can get something instead that you can use. Can't remember what it's called, but I found info. on their site. This stinks, because back when I first started self-publishing, I had NO problems at all getting a CIP for my books, and I only had a couple of them.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

There were some links at the bottom of Joel's article that took you to a few places that would do the CIP cataloguing for you for a fee.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> There were some links at the bottom of Joel's article that took you to a few places that would do the CIP cataloguing for you for a fee.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> 
> Rue


Thanks, Rue! I'm starting to wonder if I want to write more MG books. It seems so much harder than marketing others, even more than mysteries. The covers seem to have to be so much more fancy (or detailed), it's harder to reach the readers, etc. I love reading MG fiction myself because a lot of it's quirkier with a strange sense of humor than adult fiction, and I love that. Sometimes you just gotta go with what sells best, though, and right now, that's my short fiction. Which I love doing.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Yeah, there's definitely a lot more hoops to jump through with MG. If your heart isn't in it, then it may not be worth it for you right now. I need to finish my chick lit/romantic comedy sequel, then it's back into kidlit pool for me with the sequel to my MG novel. 

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Yeah, there's definitely a lot more hoops to jump through with MG. If your heart isn't in it, then it may not be worth it for you right now. I need to finish my chick lit/romantic comedy sequel, then it's back into kidlit pool for me with the sequel to my MG novel.
> 
> Rue


Well, my heart is always in my writing, but I could just as easily be happy doing other things, too. I know some children's authors who wouldn't dream of ever doing something else--that's not me. I just love children's literature and since I have written the plays for kids (which I love), I thought it would be a good match.

I certainly don't want things to be easy; that's not it. But I'm learning to "pick my battles" because I'm older than many of you and feel time rushing by.  (I'm not THAT old, but still...) LOL


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

"Picking your battles," yup, that's what I meant. If your heart isn't into jumping through all the hoops right now, then focus on your other writing for now. Maybe later come back to the MG. Have you had any borrows since the new cover? I went and plugged you on Twitter. Hope you get a borrow or two out of it. Really enjoyed the story. I'd love to read your other plays. Princess Primrose is cute and clever. 

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> I have not had any luck with my middle grade series, The Arthur Paladin Chronicles. Haven't brought over many new readers, and I have had trouble converting my fan base from my other series. I have faith that the books are well done, but MG is a harder sale for ebooks. Print is still the king when it comes to MG.
> 
> I'm thinking of changing the categories to YA. It's upper MG, and I think it will work fine as a lower YA. Hopefully, that will help with sales. Along with some promotions to get reviews and what-not.


Hi David,

I haven't read your books yet (just downloaded THE SHADOWED MANSE) but by reading a few of your samples on Amazon, I think you could re-brand your Paladin Chronicles books for YA. BUT, I think it would have to be the lower end of YA. The covers look YA to me, so that's taken care of already. BTW, I loved that you said it's sort of a cross between Dr. Who and Harry Potter. That's what intrigued me. Good luck with them!


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

ruecole said:


> "Picking your battles," yup, that's what I meant. If your heart isn't into jumping through all the hoops right now, then focus on your other writing for now. Maybe later come back to the MG. Have you had any borrows since the new cover? I went and plugged you on Twitter. Hope you get a borrow or two out of it. Really enjoyed the story. I'd love to read your other plays. Princess Primrose is cute and clever.
> 
> Rue


Thanks! I had a lot of people dismayed because I changed the cover. They keep saying it looks too picture bookish. Sigh. So, I changed it back. LOL. It will be easier for me to reproduce should I decide to do a second/third one in the series.

My plays are published by Brooklyn Publishers, so aren't available easily. I wish they were! I might eventually publish them as novellas, too. I wish it was easier to get plays published, but it's harder than books since you have to get at least one good production first. That's not easy to do.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

I guess the new cover did look a bit younger--more like a chapter book (though I think the story would appeal to that audience, too--though more as a read aloud due to the vocabulary). I still think it was better than the original in that it's clearer what it is in thumbnail. The other is just kind of a purple and black blob (sorry!). If you do decide to adapt the other plays into novels, let me know and I may be able to help you out with some cover designs. 

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Thank you! Signature updated!
> 
> My YA books sold well up until June of this year. That's my fault. Book 4: The Blood King's Apprentice is way overdue for reasons both personal and professional (this was a hard freaking book to write!). Not counting free copies of Book 1, I think I've sold about 7,000 copies of Storm Phase books. I sell almost as well on B&N as Amazon. And because Books 1 and 2 are free on Wattpad, I sell a fair number of copies of Book 3 on Smashwords, Google Play, and iBooks.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words about the covers - I got really lucky with the designer and honestly can't possibly take credit for it  And thanks for sharing info about your sales. Very interesting in that you and I aren't terribly far apart in sales, the exception being that you indicate you haven't moved a great many print, and my print is pretty dang close to my leader. I actually wish I could move more eBooks. Doubly impressive is that, unless I'm reading something wrong, you haven't even been at this a year, is that right? That's some impressive publishing output.

Like you I tend to write for audiences that straddle the MG and YA categories. But I've VERY recently completed a MG series that I'm in the process of polishing and although it does have an edge, it remains MG through-and-through. If I decide to release it on my own I'll be very curious how it does.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

we talked upthread about library cataloging in Canada - how do you do this in the US? or was it somewhere upthread and I missed it?


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

beccaprice said:


> we talked upthread about library cataloging in Canada - how do you do this in the US? or was it somewhere upthread and I missed it?


I think this link was quoted... http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2010/03/cip-what-it-means-how-to-read-it-who-should-get-it/


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> sell almost as well on B&N as Amazon.


Another interesting point. I sell pretty well on Kobo, but then I'm Canadian and many people I know use Kobo-readers. But more than that in the last year I've got to be part of at least 2 Kobo promotional spots. And that's been a huge help. For example, right now my Book GLIMPSE and RELIC are for sale for 50% off and 35% off respectively (http://store.kobobooks.com/en-CA/ebook/glimpse-7). It has kept me with some good places in the rankings on that site. I'd love to see Amazon offer promo opportunities like that.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Yup, that's the link, Becca. At the bottom there are more links to places that will hepl you catalog your books. 

Steve, do you go direct to Kobo or through D2D or Smashwords?

Thanks!

Rue


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Now I'm wondering how well collections of short stories for MG kids do? I recently picked up a whole stack of Halloween/scary/spooky stories from the library to read, and they're delightful! I would think those would make great family read-aloud stories, especially around holidays. Anybody know of any MG collections that do well? Or anthologies?


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Can't say as I do. But I'm considering writing a few short stories to go with my novel and calling them Tiny Tales. 

Just need some plot ideas, of course. 

Rue


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

bobbic said:


> Hi David,
> 
> I haven't read your books yet (just downloaded THE SHADOWED MANSE) but by reading a few of your samples on Amazon, I think you could re-brand your Paladin Chronicles books for YA. BUT, I think it would have to be the lower end of YA. The covers look YA to me, so that's taken care of already. BTW, I loved that you said it's sort of a cross between Dr. Who and Harry Potter. That's what intrigued me. Good luck with them!


Thank you! That is the Hollywood elevator pitch I use for the series. Though, the original inspiration was Stargate meets Elric. I don't think the Stargate part makes sense anymore, though. And young readers know nothing about Michael Moorcock. And in the end, Harry Potter or Percy Jackson meets Doctor Who is the closest to the final product.

I think lower YA could work well for me. The Storm Phase series begins at lower YA to middle YA. Main character in that series is 15 in Book One. Arthur is 14. I think it can work.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> Thanks for the kind words about the covers - I got really lucky with the designer and honestly can't possibly take credit for it  And thanks for sharing info about your sales. Very interesting in that you and I aren't terribly far apart in sales, the exception being that you indicate you haven't moved a great many print, and my print is pretty dang close to my leader. I actually wish I could move more eBooks. Doubly impressive is that, unless I'm reading something wrong, you haven't even been at this a year, is that right? That's some impressive publishing output.
> 
> Like you I tend to write for audiences that straddle the MG and YA categories. But I've VERY recently completed a MG series that I'm in the process of polishing and although it does have an edge, it remains MG through-and-through. If I decide to release it on my own I'll be very curious how it does.


The Storm Dragon's Heart came out in August 2011. So I've been in it for three years. But I missed an entire year of writing along the way due to a family crisis. Chains of a Dark Goddess is my best book but my worst seller. Everyone who buys it loves it, but few buy it. Writing that book was a mistake, career-wise. I would've been better served getting the Storm Phase books out faster. Alas.

I wish I knew how to sell paperbacks that well! It took The Storm Dragon's Heart going to free in ebook form to have any print sales worth mentioning -- something I still don't quite understand.


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Thank you! That is the Hollywood elevator pitch I use for the series. Though, the original inspiration was Stargate meets Elric. I don't think the Stargate part makes sense anymore, though. And young readers know nothing about Michael Moorcock. And in the end, Harry Potter or Percy Jackson meets Doctor Who is the closest to the final product.
> 
> I think lower YA could work well for me. The Storm Phase series begins at lower YA to middle YA. Main character in that series is 15 in Book One. Arthur is 14. I think it can work.


Go for it! And FWIW, I'm 58-years old (gulp) and love reading a lot of MG/younger YA books. I know who Harry Potter, Doctor Who and Percy Jackson are, but didn't know who Elric was. But kids that age probably know more than I do. I know that grandparents buy a lot of books for younger kids--not sure about the YA market, though.

Either way, like I said, you have a great start on it. I'm still trying to figure out how I can rebrand my PRINCESS PRIMROSE book to appeal to adults who like Moore and Martinez.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> Another interesting point. I sell pretty well on Kobo, but then I'm Canadian and many people I know use Kobo-readers. But more than that in the last year I've got to be part of at least 2 Kobo promotional spots. And that's been a huge help. For example, right now my Book GLIMPSE and RELIC are for sale for 50% off and 35% off respectively (http://store.kobobooks.com/en-CA/ebook/glimpse-7). It has kept me with some good places in the rankings on that site. I'd love to see Amazon offer promo opportunities like that.


Kobo promo spots? See, I didn't know that existed.

My sales on Kobo were good until the erotica fiasco. While my books weren't pulled obviously, they were stripped of their categories. I had no idea. There was no alert; no tell; nothing. Except that I went from selling 10-15 books per month on Kobo with an upward trajectory to nothing. Losing the Goodreads reviews and ratings probably didn't help at all either, but having my YA fantasy sent into the general fiction category was harsh. I only realized it three months later when I went in to tweak a blurb.


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> . . . Harry Potter or Percy Jackson meets Doctor Who is the closest to the final product.


David, you have just inspired an elevator pitch for my latest Timber Ridge Riders book (due out later today) that has a lot more mystery and skullduggery than its predecessors:

Nancy Drew meets The Black Stallion

in the UK (where I"m originally from) this would be better as: The Famous Five meet The Black Stallion

This is way more fun than doing what I'm supposed to be doing . . . writing the next book. So thanks for the diversion. Oh, and I also have a book I think is my best that doesn't sell as well as the others. TURNING ON A DIME is horse-themed, but not part of the series I'm better known for. However, I'd wanted to write it for a long time and I'm glad I did.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Maggie Dana said:


> David, you have just inspired an elevator pitch for my latest Timber Ridge Riders book (due out later today) that has a lot more mystery and skullduggery than its predecessors:
> 
> Nancy Drew meets The Black Stallion
> 
> ...


Glad I could inspire! That's a great pitch. I know it is, because I'm not a horse or horse novel person and yet I find that intriguing. (Honesty time: I'm afraid of horses and small birds.)

Someday, our best books will find their audience. One day ... one day ...


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

David Alastair Hayden said:


> Glad I could inspire! That's a great pitch. I know it is, because I'm not a horse or horse novel person and yet I find that intriguing. (Honesty time: I'm afraid of horses and small birds.)
> 
> Someday, our best books will find their audience. One day ... one day ...


Or maybe Black Beauty, for those of us older?


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

would love to hear where people promote free books for MG. I'm giving permafree a try for GLIMPSE and would love some effective places to promote it. tips anyone?


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

None of mine are free (although I could make the first one free for some period of time), but I too wonder where MG books can be promoted.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> would love to hear where people promote free books for MG. I'm giving permafree a try for GLIMPSE and would love some effective places to promote it. tips anyone?


I think a lot of the majors like Bookbub and Kindle Book and Tips, if you have enough reviews (I don't) will do promos for Children's. But those lists are much smaller than their YA lists, which is one reason I'm going to shift since I'm within range to do that. Of course, I need to be more proactive with my marketing and encouraging reviews on the Arthur Paladin Chronicles.

I'm doing perma-free with Book 1, and I did a small but relatively successful promo, but I can't find my notes now of who I used. I need to keep better records.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

I plan to wait until the price change propagates to all the Amazon sites but I'll see if I can get BookBub and Kindle Book & Tips to accept it for a promo spot. I don't really know what to expect, but I do hope at least some downloads carry over to the other books in the series. I know that doesn't always happen though....


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

There are some special interest groups over on GoodReads that specialize in MG fiction. That's where I got my first review of my MG novella. I've heard that reaching out to MG bloggers will help, although I didn't have much luck with doing that. I have a feeling that most of them support the authors who do nothing but MG writing--at least, that's the impression I got.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

decided to use BKnights for a temporary free-promo for my novel, GLIMPSE, and I'm actually pretty impressed. I wasn't sure it would reach enough MG readers, and it seems to have reached a few. I'd use him again for future marketing


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> decided to use BKnights for a temporary free-promo for my novel, GLIMPSE, and I'm actually pretty impressed. I wasn't sure it would reach enough MG readers, and it seems to have reached a few. I'd use him again for future marketing


Which of his programs did you use? I guess I could make the first of my MG/YA books free for a while to run a promo.

As for Goodreads, I tried to be active there for a while but for me the problems w/ GR was that it seemed like it would take up a lot of time. Also, I think there are so many different groups there that you have no way of knowing which MG group would be most beneficial to be involved with.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Which of his programs did you use? I guess I could make the first of my MG/YA books free for a while to run a promo.


I did this one: (https://www.fiverr.com/bknights/promote-and-market-your-self-published-kindle-book-to-4800-active-kindle-readers-on-my-facebook-page-during-your-promo-or-marketing-period)

I went back and forth about making it free. I thought I'd give it a try over the holiday months to see if that might spur some physical sales. We'll see. I don't usually sell many print copies through Amazon, instead I usually sell them through various vendors who get their books from Ingram. I'll be sure to update how it goes in a little while.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

Thought I would do an update on sales. As I said before, I made some mistakes. I released The Beef Jerky Gang e-book on Sept 19 and told no one other than a few close friends (because I knew I had an update which I would publish along with the physical book a few weeks later....basically, I should never ever do this until I've got everything ready and right the first time. Lesson learned). By October 9th I had only sold 9 copies, all from friends and relatives. Again, I should have promoted it from the day it came out. Lesson learned. Anyways, on October 12th, I was ready with an updated version of the e-book and the physical book and that's when I really let my family and friends know for real. Mostly through Facebook. I also made a few announcements on Twitter but don't think any sales came from that arena. We are now 2 months away from the initial e-book launch and 1 month away from when I started to tell people. I wanted to share my results. I think getting information in this business is critical. I love the stories of when some one is knocking it out of the park because those are inspiring and I'm glad for those people. Mine isn't one of those but I'm not doing bad either. Just doing fine, mostly how I expected. As I said, I made the mistake of not promoting the e-book from day one. And only recently did I run a 99 cent promotion and used Fussy Librarian and Kindle Boards Bargain Books to tell people (I tried but failed to get either a BookBub or ENT...no problem, will try them again in the future).

So here are my results.

Physical books through Createspace -      104 copies

e-book sold through Amazon -                38

e-book borrows                  -                    4

Physical books through local bookstore -  25

Physical books sold directly from me    -  10

So, in total, 181 books either sold or borrowed. Like I said, not killing it, but not terrible. I always thought this would be hard, earning readers one at a time and that's what it is so far. The vast majority of my sales are, up to now, from family and friends. I plan on putting the The Beef Jerky Gang up on NetGalley for December to hopefully get a few more reviews (am at 18 right now) and then will take a crack at a free promotion sometime in January.

Meanwhile, the first book in a new series, The Math Inspectors, just went live on Monday. I will have the second one in the Math Inspectors Series live in February and then the second book of The Beef Jerky Gang sometime in April.

So, those are my results so far and that's my immediate plan. If anybody has advice or suggestions, would love to hear them. Lots of smart, experienced writers on this thread and I need to keep learning. Thanks!  Daniel


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## JTCochrane (Feb 6, 2012)

ruecole said:


> I know middle-grade fiction doesn't sell as well as most adult fiction (romance, thriller, mystery, etc.), but does anyone have stats for self-pubbed middle-grade fiction? Or would they mind sharing their own numbers? I'd just like to get a sense of how my book is performing compared with other middle-grade books.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Rue


Hi Rue,

I am just about to write a post asking about taking a perma-free off of perma-free. I only have middle-grade/young adult stuff. My first in the series is perma-free. I sell pretty well on the rest in the series. So, with three books on sale out of four. I sale around 150+ a month. I know not spectacular but not horrible. My first has 135 reviews with a 4.4 star rating if you need that kind of info to put into your equation. My stuff is fantasy/science fiction. I hope that helps.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Wow, Daniel! 104 print copies? I've sold 12, I think since the print edition released mid-September. How did you move so many copies? I've sold over 100 copies in ebook and had almost double that in borrows. I will be doing a book signing in December, so hopefully I'll move a few print copies then!

JT, I remember when you published your first book. Nice cover upgrades! I can see why you're selling decent copies now! 

Rue


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

Rue, like I said. I think most of my sales are still in the friends and family department- and that's definitely the case for the print copies. I've got a lot of facebook friends and a big extended family and I'm sure they account for just about all of those sales. But, my kindle sales are low and I'm not really seeing anything like organic growth yet. I sort of feel like I need something to kick start sales a bit but unfortunately my promotion last week didn't quite do that. So, will keep writing and thinking of new promotions. If you've got any ideas, let me know. Thanks! Daniel


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Daniel, I think your covers SCREAM MG and are probably pushing lots of those paperback sales. My one MG book did so badly that I'm trying to decide if I even want to tackle another one for that market or not. But I know not having other MG books is part of the problem.


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## JTCochrane (Feb 6, 2012)

ruecole said:


> Wow, Daniel! 104 print copies? I've sold 12, I think since the print edition released mid-September. How did you move so many copies? I've sold over 100 copies in ebook and had almost double that in borrows. I will be doing a book signing in December, so hopefully I'll move a few print copies then!
> 
> JT, I remember when you published your first book. Nice cover upgrades! I can see why you're selling decent copies now!
> 
> Rue


Thanks Rue.


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