# My numbers are slowing to a crawl



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

Last month I averaged a little less than 50 books a day. Right now I'm at less than thirty. You people said September would be better! Anyway, I'm hoping to get a new release out this month so maybe that will help.

Anyone else finding September to be worse?


----------



## Holly A Hook (Sep 19, 2010)

Mine are down to 1-2 per day.  It hasn't been encouraging so far.  I think it's time for me to try a new genre.  Also, as soon as I have the whole Destroyers series finished, I'll also think about making the first book free.

Sounds like this is a bad month for a lot of us, so it's not just you.  Hopefully you'll see some better sales as the weather gets colder and more people curl up with books.  By the way, thirty sales a day is not bad.


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

Nah, 30 a day isn't bad especially considering I sold nothing my first two months.


----------



## D/W (Dec 29, 2010)

Sybil, perhaps sales have slowed for your children's/young adult books because students are back in school now so they have less time to read for pleasure. I hope sales pick up for you!


----------



## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm with you, Sybil. It looks like I'm crashing and burning. 10 weeks of continually falling sales -- 11 if the next 4 days don't improve over the last 3. Ah, well, it was quite a ride. And who knows, it may pick up again.


----------



## Cliff Ball (Apr 10, 2010)

I have exactly a year of good sales (for me anyway), and now they're plummeting to maybe 1 every other day for all my novels since about June. I was so getting used to up to 5 or 6 sales a day. I would blame the economy, but most of us have ebooks under $2.99, so not sure I can explain it.


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

I have new releases planned for Sept-Dec. so I'm hoping that will give me a boost. I also plan to make a the first book of Priscilla the Great free when the fourth book comes out and make Queen Bee free when The Devil of DiRisio comes out.


----------



## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

My sales are down slightly, despite promoting heavily.  I blame it all on increased competition.  More and more titles being uploaded every day, most from the print palaces.  It's getting harder and harder to stand out.  But ya gotta keep trying.  Best!


----------



## horse_girl (Apr 9, 2010)

Mine are half what they were in June. I thought August was a big slow down but September hasn't been going very well either. I'm hoping two new releases before the year is done help pick things up, at least a little.


----------



## KateEllison (Jul 9, 2011)

Yeah, mine have been really slow. I'm relieved not to be the only one, but sorry we're all experiencing this!


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Agreed with modwitch, and I find it interesting how that coincides with how Amazon has created several publishing imprints themselves during that span of time. Loosening things up so they can better sell their own imprints' titles, perhaps?


----------



## Katie Salidas (Mar 21, 2010)

modwitch said:


> I've said it before, but I'll repeat it again (feel free to tune me out ).
> 
> Amazon made extensive changes to their algorithms through the spring, with the last round of changes (that I know of) happening in mid-June. Rankings are now a lot less "sticky" - you only get 30 days on the Hot New Releases lists, for example, instead of 90. I also *think* they are tweaking the algos to boost books with growing sales, and push down books with shrinking sales (meaning once you have a slower week, it's extremely hard to recover).
> 
> ...


As much as I want to stick my fingers in my ears and sing, "la, la, la, la," I think you're right. The slowdown is too widespread and too closely tied to all of the "New Improvements," Amazon has made over the last few months. Now's the time to get that newer work out there rather than focus all the energy on picking up the older books sales.


----------



## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

D.A. Boulter said:


> I'm with you, Sybil. It looks like I'm crashing and burning. 10 weeks of continually falling sales -- 11 if the next 4 days don't improve over the last 3. Ah, well, it was quite a ride. And who knows, it may pick up again.


When sales are falling, has anyone tried the advice of changing their blurbs and covers? I've heard this recommended and wondered how successful it would be in increasing sales.


----------



## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

modwitch said:


> They favor books with pre-order pages and books with big marketing budgets or big audiences that can hit with a bang and take full advantage of the boost I think they're now giving to "fresh" content.


Which begs the question, is there a way for indie authors to do a pre-order page through Amazon? I'm sure there would be some nightmares involved in this, for readers and writers alike, but it should be worth discussing.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Ty Johnston said:


> Which begs the question, is there a way for indie authors to do a pre-order page through Amazon? I'm sure there would be some nightmares involved in this, for readers and writers alike, but it should be worth discussing.


The only way I've seen preorders come up anywhere is when I assign my ISBNs to my print books. Barnes & Noble allows people to preorder my print titles that way. Perhaps assigning an ISBN to your book would allow preorders, but I have no idea how far in advance you would have to assign the ISBNs, plus some are not willing to dish out the money for simply accepting preorders.


----------



## drewschmidt (Jun 4, 2011)

My wife and I are watching the same thing....and the only thing I can think of is that I need to make sure she has more books out that are well written and help the series. We know she is developing a good fan base and we're doing what we can to develop that fan base and thank those who have supported her. The hope is that as she gets ready to release the 3rd book in the Fateful series that we'll have enough support out there so that we can get good sales and pop the third book into the top 100 of a few lists. When the books were in a few top 100 lists we always seem to get to get good sales and they continued. 

Writing is the one thing she can easily control. The more she writes, the more there is for people to buy.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I've said it before, but I'll repeat it again (feel free to tune me out ).
> 
> Amazon made extensive changes to their algorithms through the spring, with the last round of changes (that I know of) happening in mid-June. Rankings are now a lot less "sticky" - you only get 30 days on the Hot New Releases lists, for example, instead of 90. I also *think* they are tweaking the algos to boost books with growing sales, and push down books with shrinking sales (meaning once you have a slower week, it's extremely hard to recover).
> 
> ...


Ouch. That certainly is disheartening.


----------



## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm inclined to agree with modwitch, but I do have to say that we really don't _know _anything-- we're just guessing. It's all really just speculation at this point.

I just calculated up how I'm selling so far this month, and I see that my numbers have been fairly steady over the past three months, but unfortunately they've plateaued at a place that's much lower than where they were in the spring. This is disheartening, for sure. Also disheartening is the fact that my newer books just don't seem to be taking off the way my older ones did. This is true on both Amazon and B&N-- it just seems to be harder to get a toehold somehow. However, I haven't been able to release nearly as many books as I want to due to my health problems, so I will admit that the problem may be partly due to me. As Drew said below, the only thing we can really control is our own writing.

In any event, while the problem seems to be fairly widespread, I would remind everyone to remember that we're speculating, and basing that spec on incomplete information. On the flip side, the number of indies selling a thousand or more books per month seems to be much higher than it was a year ago, which is good news for indies.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

One thing that concerns me is that my numbers are falling at a much faster rate this month than when they were going up in the spring. That tells me that the books are getting less visibility, perhaps on other books also-boughts. One thing I have noticed in my own genre is an increase in backlist titles on the Top 100 for HF (and many of them are .99-2.99). Maybe publishers are finally catching up with releasing some older, popular authors and readers are catching up on those? Just one factor of many, perhaps.


----------



## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

There is definitely a lot of backlist hitting Kindle. Some of it is publishers releasing their old stuff in huge chunks (as Harlequin is doing), but a lot of it is smart authors getting their out-of-print stuff up, too. So there's more competition from people with known names.



> A lot of the indie books that were hitting the top spots a while ago, aren't getting near it now.


f

The thing is that it seems to me we're making these comparisions based on very little info. Take me as an example. I started indie pubbing in February 2010. Up till November of 2010 I wasn't selling all that much (and yet my books were regularly in the top 1000, which suggests to me that most others weren't selling that much either). Around December 2010-March 2011, things really took off for me (partly because I released a bunch of erotic romances, admittedly). I racked up huge numbers on B&N, and I was definitely not the only one. Then things fell off. So are things worse for me because I'm doing far worse than I was in February, or are things better for me because I'm doing much better than I was in September of last year? I dunno. I really don't have enough data to judge, honestly.


----------



## NickSpalding (Apr 21, 2010)

Things have definitely changed at Amazon UK in the past few months.

Back in May, there were over fifteen indie titles in the Top 100. Now there are 3... and two of them are by the same author. Whether this is a blip or a trend remains to be seen.


----------



## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree with Modwitch. Anyone who has lived through a Google algo change can see the parallels. 

The only thing I wonder is what the new business practice should be to compensate?

Also, I'm frustrated. I turned to indie publishing to get out of having to redesign my business every other month. It's an enormous amount of work to produce content and then market and then remarket it when the rules change. This is where traditional publishing will have an edge. The system is now tailoring itself to their favor, not ours.  

M


----------



## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

Things have definitely changed but I believe it's for the reason someone else stated: known authors getting their backlists published. If you're like me and relatively unknown, it's next to impossible to compete with the likes of Georgette Heyer when those books are pumped out in the same genre/category. Particularly when a publisher puts out a huge inventory at a slashed price of $1.99.

That is really tough competition. The pool is definitely widening and getting deeper.
My only hope is to work ever harder and produce new fiction, hoping for an audience to develop over time.


----------



## Zander Schloss (Sep 4, 2011)

Sybil: Stay the course and keep the faith. Your covers are terrific - especially the Priscilla covers - and they're going to catch the eyes of readers. September is back-to-school month and a lot of people who read are reading school-related material (and are bloody well sick of it already, I might add). Let's look forward to October.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

modwitch said:


> I've said it before, but I'll repeat it again (feel free to tune me out ).
> 
> Amazon made extensive changes to their algorithms through the spring, with the last round of changes (that I know of) happening in mid-June. Rankings are now a lot less "sticky" - you only get 30 days on the Hot New Releases lists, for example, instead of 90. I also *think* they are tweaking the algos to boost books with growing sales, and push down books with shrinking sales (meaning once you have a slower week, it's extremely hard to recover).
> 
> ...


I don't doubt you at all. I've been watching my 'also boughts' very closely. In mid-July, most were freebies, which made sense because mine had been a freebie. I had priced mine back to $2.99, but Amazon was matching Sony's price of 99 cents (because they are so slow to update). It makes it hard to sell a book when every book listed beneath it for at least five pages is a freebie. Eventually my also boughts changed to 99 cent books but probably only because the books were no longer free, not because they were different books. My price has been $2.99 for both of my books now for a month. My second book has never been priced below that--and yet a majority of the also boughts are 99 cent books--doesn't make sense. I keep waiting for the algorithms to catch up and have like priced books listed, but other than my own titles in each other's also boughts, I have to go about 8 pages before I find another $2.99 book.


----------



## destill (Oct 5, 2010)

I'm afraid Modwitch is correct. My best selling book has nosedived during September. And the situation became worse AFTER I made minor modifications to the book's details (key words). That book was selling 15 to 20 copies per day before I made the change. It sold three copies yesterday, after the book returned to "live" status.


----------



## WilliamKing.me (Jul 15, 2011)

Noticed something similar with my own bestselling book. I made a few changes, uploaded the new version to Amazon and sales have dropped like a stone. I wonder what is going on.

All the best,

Bill


----------



## LKWatts (May 5, 2011)

Considering what Modwitch has said, I think that's the trouble with digital publishing. Everything can change so fast that by the time your used to one system, another system takes over.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Honestly, I think it's largely reader driven - how to sell more books to the newer crowd of Kindle owners. The early adopters of ereaders were people who liked to "browse the stacks" - so also boughts and stuff like that help those folks find new books to read. People buying Kindles now? I think they're more of the 2-3 books a month club, and their buying habits are going to be different. Amazon's very quick to react to that kind of stuff.
> 
> All just speculation on my part, but it's been astonishing how much the playing field has changed in the seven months I've had books up.


Huh. So Amazon's focus is on the churn, leading to more volatility?

What's sort of odd about that is that it's the folks who browse and read a few books a week who are the voluntary labor pool for separating the good from the bad, and making sure the cream rises and all that stuff.

I wonder how bad it would be if they hadn't created the Indie store?

I also kind of wonder if they're quite done tinkering, or if they'll be looking to tinker again to maximize profitability after the next wave of ereader adoption.

And how the tablet, and it's apps (assuming people make apps for android that no longer suck), will effect all of this.


----------



## ChristopherDavidPetersen (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm guessing the continued slow sales is still based on the Summer slowdown and the slow buildup that comes after the summer (just guessing - this is my first summer). 

I'm seeing a strange pattern though... sales are great until the middle of the month, then they drop off for a week, then build up through the last few days of the month. Sales have been great for me this month until a couple of days ago - then they practically stopped (again, this has happened three months in a row).

I'm hoping that by October, readers are back to normal and sales stabilize... if not, I plan on drinking EVEN MORE heavily!


----------



## Mel Comley (Oct 13, 2010)

Gosh! I thought it was just me. I was so looking forward to September, uploaded two books because everyone said this would be the month of recovering our plummeting sales! WRONG!

It seems the more books I upload the *less* I sell. I have 6 books out now, so I look at it this way 6 in the UK and 6 in the US (don't count Germany at all) that's 12 books. The last few weeks I've been selling 30-40 a day, yesterday I sold 2! Out of 12 books, are you kidding? Haha! And one of those was in Germany! lol

Something is definitely happening at Amazon, whether it's because of the new imprints or other authors backlists, I'm not sure.

I'm afraid I'm looking on the downside and wondering if it's worth the hassle anymore!


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Sybil Nelson said:


> Nah, 30 a day isn't bad especially considering I sold nothing my first two months.


I would kill (or at least maim  ) for thirty a day.

Edit: I am darn close to the number I sold for all of August, but August seriously sucked so that's not saying a lot.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Don't give up!

There is somewhat of a gold rush going on at the moment when it comes to uploading backlists.  This can't/won't last forever.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

Amy Corwin said:


> Things have definitely changed but I believe it's for the reason someone else stated: known authors getting their backlists published. If you're like me and relatively unknown, it's next to impossible to compete with the likes of Georgette Heyer when those books are pumped out in the same genre/category. Particularly when a publisher puts out a huge inventory at a slashed price of $1.99.


Georgette Heyer was a prolific writer and her books' prices were slashed all at once. There was a bit of a buzz about it on HF forums, so a dozen of them shot into the Top 100 overnight. That really upended the HF bestselling lists.



> There is somewhat of a gold rush going on at the moment when it comes to uploading backlists. This can't/won't last forever.


Not forever, no. But there is quite a supply to draw from.

Oh gosh, I think I need to go play with puppies or smell the flowers or do something cheerful now... Chocolate, anyone?


----------



## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

This is odd...my sales numbers for September are better than they've been before (excluding August, when _Tugger's Down_ was free and pushed my other books' sales). At this point, almost half-way through the month, my total sales exceed any previous month (except August). And the strange thing is, _Tugger's_ was the book I couldn't sell, and now that it's not free anymore, I'm selling more of it than the others put together. 

Of course, with that said, I've never set the kind of sales records that everyone else here has. Y'all would be disappointed in sales figures that make me pleased as punch.


----------



## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Mel Comley said:


> Gosh! I thought it was just me. I was so looking forward to September, uploaded two books because everyone said this would be the month of recovering our plummeting sales! WRONG!
> 
> It seems the more books I upload the *less* I sell. I have 6 books out now, so I look at it this way 6 in the UK and 6 in the US (don't count Germany at all) that's 12 books. The last few weeks I've been selling 30-40 a day, yesterday I sold 2! Out of 12 books, are you kidding? Haha! And one of those was in Germany! lol
> 
> ...


Glad it's not just me. I don't sell 30 a day, but I've been selling 10 per day on my most popular title with gradual improvement on it... but since yesterday, nothing at all. Just ground to a screaming halt. Just when I thought things were beginning to improve and Sept was going to surpass Aug.


----------



## meggjensen (Feb 17, 2011)

Wow, guys, I'm having the exact opposite experience.

I read the TBAM post on September 1st and wanted to kill my pen name because I sold only 160 combined copies of 3 books in August. Dismal.

September 2nd, Anathema went free. Suddenly, my sequel's sales exploded. Anathema was only free for five days (resulting in over 11,000 downloads) and since then I've SOLD 1,000 ebooks from September 7th - 13th. Anathema and Oubliette are ranking well, but Sleepers (the first book in another trilogy) is still only selling 3 - 4 copies a day.

I tend to think that those of us going free are screwing up the rankings and sales for everyone else. I say this without anger towards the free ebooks, because I have no illusions that my books will continue to sell at this rate as more and more indies go free. I took the risk, I blew up the charts, and I'm sure others will be doing the same in the coming weeks and tank my sales as a result. I'm just enjoying the ride while I'm on it - and working my butt off to get Severed, the final book in Anathema's trilogy, out before November 1st.

~Megg


----------



## Kent Kelly (Feb 12, 2011)

On my end, sales have crashed from 1600-1700 a month to a projected 500 this month.  I've switched strategies to offering public domain titles only.  I love to write and will continue to do so, but I don't see any reason to waste effort on unique works which are going to take 300-400 hours to write and sell 5-10 copies.  If it changes in the future I'll publish again but for now it's just been downgraded from a home business passion to a design hobby.

People tend to get annoyed when I'm realistic


----------



## Sarah Woodbury (Jan 30, 2011)

Because of this thread, I ran my numbers and I'm down 9%, for the most part, on August. I agree with Modwitch about the Amazon Algorithms, though it may be that they changed them in March to my benefit, and then something happened again around May 16th. Looking at my Author Central rankings is educational for September too. Let me see if I can insert an image:










Hmm. September's not looking as good, is it? Now, that is relative ranking. If Amazon overall is going like hot cakes, than DOT will be down, even if it is selling the same number of copies, which it's not so . . .


----------



## Doctor Barbara (Aug 17, 2010)

Cool graph work Sarah.  You do have nice numbers even when they sag!


----------



## MGalloway (Jun 21, 2011)

Tommie Lyn said:


> This is odd...my sales numbers for September are better than they've been before (excluding August, when _Tugger's Down_ was free and pushed my other books' sales). At this point, almost half-way through the month, my total sales exceed any previous month (except August). And the strange thing is, _Tugger's_ was the book I couldn't sell, and now that it's not free anymore, I'm selling more of it than the others put together.


Sounds like the exposure helped. 

After reading all the entries in this thread, I'm still thinking the best answer is to keep generating new content and publishing it on a regular basis...as well as mixing up the pricing strategy a bit.


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

Okay, now you've all gotten me depressed. But I'm not giving up! I'm just going to release book two of my dance series and make book 1 free. Hopefully that will salvage my sales expectations.

Even though things are changing rapidly, it's still nice being Indie because we can change with it if we like. We have the control.


----------



## jimbronyaur (Feb 9, 2011)

Yeah, I've noticed the crazy slowdown too.  Perhaps Amazon is trying to find a better way... for something.... I don't know.  

There was the huge thread about "crap" the other day, maybe that plays into it.  Maybe with a huge flood of new authors and maybe books littered with typos, etc. were hurting Amazon and they changed things?  

I don't know... I'm just talking out loud here.

But September has really sucked for me so far.  But I'm staying hopeful.  I have some new releases coming soon, and plenty of work hitting on some pen names, etc.  

People are still selling books out there, so that's something to hold onto... then again, if nothing happens by the end of December, maybe we should start a new thread:  "Beta Read my Query Letter"   

-jb


----------



## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

This reminds me of a thread a few months ago about "The Golden Age" for independent writers.  Many of us said that it was, and that Amazon could make things much tougher for us very easily (and might be feeling pressure from various places to do so).  It sounds like it's happening sooner than any of us thought, if Modwitch is correct (and she usually is).

I had a lot of sales last winter and spring with my new book.  Now I'm thinking that's not going to be the case with the one I'm releasing in a few weeks.  Oh well...


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

My sales are stronger than August, but still minimal compared to some of the figures thrown about above. My increase is simply that I've returned to some promotional work after a very hectic August.


----------



## Lyndawrites (Aug 7, 2011)

Gosh, this thread has made me depressed - and I'm not even published yet. I'm sure I can hear the sound of the bandwagon rolling on out of town.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

Sarah Woodbury said:


> Because of this thread, I ran my numbers and I'm down 9%, for the most part, on August. I agree with Modwitch about the Amazon Algorithms, though it may be that they changed them in March to my benefit, and then something happened again around May 16th. Looking at my Author Central rankings is educational for September too. Let me see if I can insert an image:


Sarah, my graphs look similar. Rankings on the slide the past 2-3 weeks and overall sales numbers down by an even greater per cent than yours. (My husband went Excel-crazy and did all sorts of graphs, including a running 7-day average, so I can see trends happening, not just singular good/bad days.)

But, I do think it's like you said in that Amazon has helped us out a lot in the past and just maybe what they're doing recently is having the opposite effect.

Here's the thing, though - we don't know what's going to happen next week, next month or in the coming year. Amazon is always tweaking, trying new things, seeing what works or what doesn't. I'd give a limb to be in some of their meetings and know what they're tossing around. The bottom line is they're going to do what works best for them, which ultimately is what works best for the customer, which may or may not be what works best for us.

At any rate, best we can do is stay the course. It would be very shortsighted to think that opportunities no longer exist. If you have stories to tell, keep writing them.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I think there are two effects. I agree with Mod that the algos have changed. But even if the algo doesn't change, its behavior can change with an increase in the number and mix of books meeting various conditions. So the same algo can deliver very different behavior based on the input sales data.

If we couple changed algos with different sales trends, we get the effects from both at the same time. And both changed algos and sales trends feed each other.


----------



## Steven R. Drennon (Mar 12, 2011)

meggjensen said:


> I tend to think that those of us going free are screwing up the rankings and sales for everyone else.


I think this has a LOT to do with it as well. I've mentioned before that since everyone has gone on the freebie binge, I've basically stopped buying e-books all together. I haven't bought a new e-book since May! Now I have easily a hundred or so books that I have downloaded and not nearly enough time to read them all, and I suspect that there are a LOT of readers who are in the same boat.

I recognize and agree with the strategy, especially for those authors who have a series or multiple books. However, what really irks me is that I am seeing more and more freebies from authors who only have the one book or maybe one other that is available. Between the flood of backlists and the flood of freebies, it's getting a LOT harder to get the attention of the buying public!


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

My sales are down BIG in September.

Now, I was on a sandy beach for the last two weeks with no internet access, so I can't really complain.

Still, was a little surprised at how much they fell when I disappeared completely.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Maybe it's time to start following DWS advice and just write. Put the work out and write some more. My numbers are down from last month, last week. Each day it's a slow trickle. But I'm still new to this self-pub world.

What I am not new to is online sales. There are always dips and peaks. I can say that in my little glass world, sales are way down as well. There are a lot of things factoring into the decline. Economy, time of year, election race getting started. We just need to keep putting out product and gaining one reader at a time. 

Are we long haul or short term? I'm long haul.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

I think the thread on the ads showing up on product pages is telling. http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,83798.0.html

From my reply in that thread, you'll see I'm not surprised at what's happening. Disappointed, of course.

A slew of low-priced backlist Science Fiction books were also released the first week of Sept. Publishers and others are catching on and catching up.


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

Please pass the chocolate from page 2 of this thread! 

For a title that was gaining steadily over the summer months since launch in March (print) and via Kindle in July where it bounced in and out of Top This and Top That lists -- bam!  September so far is not good. So yes, something has changed.

Not looking for the 99cent sale so don't have to worry about that market, but no doubt the system-wide adjustments have also affected titles like mine priced at $2.99.  

Am glad to have the print version on offer, and plan to focus more on nonAmazon marketing. Target marketing.


----------



## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

I've still not self-published any titles, so my thoughts about all this are incredibly speculative. It sounds like while this is not a trend that authors are seeing across the board, it is widespread. I do think that one month of slow sales, or even two, doesn't provide us with enough data to draw any real conclusions. And it's possible that some of the slowdown is related to reasons far beyond Amazon's control...like, say, the latest jobs report or the stalled economy.

One thing that strikes me, however, is that what most people on this thread are describing is the natural sales progression over the life of a book--at least, the progression that was typical of most books before the ebook revolution. I've published five titles, and each one of them has followed the same pattern--amazing sales for 2-3 months, which slowly taper off and eventually plateau at a much lower rate. To me this is a typical and fairly understandable phenomenon...when I have a new release, my publisher focuses marketing efforts on that book, there are press releases, it goes onto their new releases page, book bloggers post a spate of reviews, and my fans immediately snatch it up. After a few months, the people within my target audience who are regular book buyers have already been exposed to the idea that my book is out there, and chances are, if they wanted it, they've purchased it. Obviously I will continue to pick up sales as new readers discover my book, but the initial flood of sales has passed.

I've seen self-publishers advance the idea that the above is no longer how things work, and that ebooks will experience a completely different sales cycle. As the story goes, a self-published book may start off slower (no marketing push by a publisher, etc.), but it will build momentum over time. I've seen folks on these forums advance the theory that an ebook's sales will rise or, at the very least, maintain indefinitely. The rationale seems to be that a trade published book's sales live and die by "shelf life", which is a concept that apparently doesn't apply to ebooks.

I've always been skeptical of such claims. Ebooks are new and exploding, so it's difficult to get a realistic sense of what sales patterns will look like over the long term. But I've always had the gut feeling that initial heavy sales followed by a period of decline is probably the natural path for any book, not just print books. And why not? The principle is the same. Once you've reached your target audience via marketing and word-of-mouth has some time to come into play, you will eventually get to a point where those people who regularly shop for books within your genre will have seen your title, heard about it, and will have made the decision whether they're interested or not. This process may take longer for self-published books...start slow, hit critical mass, decline....but we're still just talking about books. And the more books you sell to your target audience, the fewer opportunities you'll have for future sales--barring a major change in the size of that target audience (for example, someone who wrote a zombie novel ten years ago could easily get a sales boost from the recent renewed interest in zombies). 

Those of you who are concerned because you have a book that's been out for at least six months and sales have declined--don't waste your time trying to figure out how to give that older book a shot in the arm. Write a new book. That is the single best way to revive interest in your backlist. It's also the only way to build any kind of career as a writer. Contrary to what some people have suggested, ebooks are not an infinite source of ever-growing income. Nothing is. Think about it--movies, music, video games...the best sales occur shortly after release, and may maintain for a while, but eventually even the most popular movie or game will get knocked off the charts by newer titles.


----------



## NS (Jul 8, 2011)

Too many free books. People don't have to and don't want to buy.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"As the story goes, a self-published book may start off slower (no marketing push by a publisher, etc.), but it will build momentum over time."_

I think that story comes from people who have experienced it.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Natasha A. Salnikova said:


> Too many free books. People don't have to and don't want to buy.


I don't think that's true. After I discover an author, if I am a fan, I buy all their books. Rarely is the day I download a free book just because it is free.


----------



## GerrieFerrisFinger (Jun 1, 2011)

Ryne Douglas Pearson said:


> There's a cure for this: _write_. We control very little beyond that.


You are soooo right. We can promote our hearts out but if people aren't buying for whatever reasons - economy, free books, etc. - we can't help that.
While we hope for upturns, we write.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _"As the story goes, a self-published book may start off slower (no marketing push by a publisher, etc.), but it will build momentum over time."_
> 
> I think that story comes from people who have experienced it.


Yes, but at some point don't you think a book will peak and sales will decline? It may find a new audience at some point and climb again, but the natural progression is for sales to stall and eventually decline as something new comes along.


----------



## Josh Kilen (Aug 10, 2011)

flanneryohello said:


> I've always been skeptical of such claims. Ebooks are new and exploding, so it's difficult to get a realistic sense of what sales patterns will look like over the long term. But I've always had the gut feeling that initial heavy sales followed by a period of decline is probably the natural path for any book, not just print books. And why not? The principle is the same. Once you've reached your target audience via marketing and word-of-mouth has some time to come into play, you will eventually get to a point where those people who regularly shop for books within your genre will have seen your title, heard about it, and will have made the decision whether they're interested or not. This process may take longer for self-published books...start slow, hit critical mass, decline....but we're still just talking about books.


Agreed. There are two things I'd like to add though...

1) If you really want to control or influence your sales, find out WHO is buying your book(s), then find HOW they decided to buy it. From there you can make more intelligent decisions about how to promote your work to the right people in the right way. This is not easy and why major companies (major publishers included) spend millions in market research etc... they do a lot of small things that make a big difference to the end user. If the details or getting to know your customer's buying behavior is not your thing then...

2) Write like you've never wrote before. It's been said too many times but it's still true. Spend every waking moment you have getting new work out. Partner with co-writers to write faster. Find people that want to put out a book but just need a little encouragement, and publish the book for them. Get new titles out.

I've heard it said once that "Hope is not a sound business strategy" but I do think that luck plays as big a role in breakout success as a good product or hard work connecting with an audience. If you don't want to market heavily or ride many waves of changing business practice, you have to hope that luck will swing your way. The best way to do that is to get new titles out all the time.

I think for the few that do BOTH of these, they will find long term success as a publisher. And as an author.


----------



## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

Man, I would love to be selling 50 books a day!  I sold over 700 in July and then dropped down to 500 total in August.  September has been slow so far, as well.  However, it is the end of summer and I announced I would change prices come the end of summer, so I am now fearing doing that.  At the same time, I need to try and find the price that makes me a bit more cash and still sells my books.  Oh, the grand pricing experiment continues!


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Yes, but at some point don't you think a book will peak and sales will decline? It may find a new audience at some point and climb again, but the natural progression is for sales to stall and eventually decline as something new comes along.'_

Sure it will peak and decline at some point. The question is at what point. Two months? One year? Two years? Ten years? We need time to tell. But the time we have had shows a different shape to many curves. (I acknowledge many eBook curves also quickly settle to zero, so we have to segment the analysis.)

We already have people reporting sales curves that are different from the traditional curve that spikes for 2-3 months then declines. If the peak is 2-3 months for a traditional book, at what point does the eBook peak?


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

@Flannery

Your argument does have some truth to it. Especially when you think of movies etc. But there are exceptions. Sometimes a movie doesn't do well in theaters, but then develops a cult following and kills in DVD sales. One example I can think of is Office Space. Not that big in the box office but huge DVD sales. In music, an old unheard of song can suddenly become popular because it gets used in a commercial or something. So even with movies and music, big sales can come after the initial promotion. I think that is even more likely to happen with eBooks. A book can be limping along quietly with one or two sales a day and then suddenly gets mentioned in Huffington Post or John Locke's blog and take off. I think the difference is that with Trad books, the take off point is usually always at the beginning. With Indie books, that take-off moment can happen at any time. Just my opinion. I am by no means an expert.

I think Indie Publishing is going to follow the road of Indie Music. There are tons of talented Indie musicians selling modestly. Every once in a while one breaks out into mainstream. Think of Ray LaMontagne. He's been around for years. But now everyone knows his song because of that commercial with the little white dog burying his bone.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

What's interesting to me is that my fantasy titles have simply stopped selling. BAM.

My historical novels sales have actually picked up to near June levels. Maybe backlist HF isn't being released? Heck, how much backlist HF is there really?


----------



## Kent Kelly (Feb 12, 2011)

Heh.  If we all write and publish more books, and more indies are coming in, and the trend toward making books free to push the sales of other titles continues, what's the end result?

More free choices for readers, more potential reluctance for purchased sales (why buy a book from that "one free, the rest not" author, when we can buy the free book from his rival instead?  hey, it's five stars too and in the same genre), more difficulty getting individual titles noticed, more indies feeling they need to write another book to get noticed ...

I mean sure, if you're already a fan-rich writer with an established stable of books, writing more books means more sales.  You have name recognition and people aren't browsing a genre, they're searching your name.  If your sales are on the decline, however, writing more is just going to cloud the waters (and throw water on the drowning man, so to speak).

I think the answer for many will be to write now, publish later when there's an audience upsurge (release of Amazon tablet), pull books that don't find their audience, and possibly republish those books with new covers to get a second chance at being seen.  Not pretty, but I think in the year to come a lot of indies will, after publishing their closet manuscripts, come to the conclusion that writing long-term is not for them and the market will thin.  If I keep aging at this same rate I'll probably be one of them and be more of a publisher and less of a writer.


----------



## herocious (May 20, 2011)

Not sure how well changing your cover and blurb will work, especially if you've put any effort into branding your cover via reviews and interviews on different venues.

But it's definitely time to think outside the box if your old methods aren't working anymore. How about trying new, cost-effective advertising spots?

I have 6 slots on a website (TheOpenEnd) I edit that gets 50,000 page views a month and they're reasonably priced because my primary goal is to increase awareness of great reads.

TheOpenEnd is geared for indie readers and writers, and has been around since 2008, consistently putting up new high-quality content from contributors all around the world.

If this interests you, and I promise a month slot won't even come close to breaking the bank (maybe it'll cost you 3 kombuchas), then check out the site http://theopenend.com/indie-press-book-reviews/ to see how tastefully the advertising is done.

And if you're still interested, PM me. I'm quick.

Be well,

*MD (herocious)


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

destill said:


> I'm afraid Modwitch is correct. My best selling book has nosedived during September. And the situation became worse AFTER I made minor modifications to the book's details (key words). That book was selling 15 to 20 copies per day before I made the change. It sold three copies yesterday, after the book returned to "live" status.


Whoa. Something like this happened to me too. I changed my keywords on both of my titles after reading a great post by Karen McQuestion on this topic, and then my books went unavailable for sale for a couple of days. You couldn't even find my titles with a search. Did changing your keywords make your book unavailable, and for how long?


----------



## meggjensen (Feb 17, 2011)

Lyndawrites said:


> Gosh, this thread has made me depressed - and I'm not even published yet. I'm sure I can hear the sound of the bandwagon rolling on out of town.


Lynda,

Don't despair. The best part of being indie published is that our books are there to be discovered at any time. They aren't going out of print and languishing in warehouses waiting for the black remainder marker. Write your books and when the time comes to distribute them, find the best way to do it. Times are changing quickly, yes, but adapting is our biggest strength right now.

Don't give up before you get there!!!! *hugs*

~Megg


----------



## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

Josh Kilen said:


> 2) Write like you've never wrote before. It's been said too many times but it's still true. Spend every waking moment you have getting new work out. Partner with co-writers to write faster. Find people that want to put out a book but just need a little encouragement, and publish the book for them. Get new titles out.
> 
> ... If you don't want to market heavily or ride many waves of changing business practice, you have to hope that luck will swing your way. The best way to do that is to get new titles out all the time.


I really don't think churning out new books all the time is the way to go.

Take the time you need to write a very good book, and it will garner readers who will tell their friends and come back for more.

Lexi


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Sybil Nelson said:


> Think of Ray LaMontagne. He's been around for years. But now everyone knows his song because of that commercial with the little white dog burying his bone.


Off topic, we're going to see him play live tonight.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Lexi Revellian said:


> I really don't think churning out new books all the time is the way to go.
> 
> Take the time you need to write a very good book, and it will garner readers who will tell their friends and come back for more.
> 
> Lexi


At Dragon*Con, Michael Stackpole told me something like, "This is a 14-year overnight success business." (sorry for mangling your quote, Mike).

OTOH, many indies have proved that this can be a 1-year overnight success business, but that seems to be the case mainly for really prolific writers (Hocking, Dalglish, et al.). It's great to see someone like KC May who managed to pull that off without being crazy prolific, though. Because I can't write five books a year.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"(why buy a book from that "one free, the rest not" author, when we can buy the free book from his rival instead? hey, it's five stars too and in the same genre),"_

There are probably several reasons. One reason is because the consumer liked the free book1 in a series and now wants to buy book2. This implies knowledge beyond price and star score.


----------



## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I really don't think churning out new books all the time is the way to go.
> 
> Take the time you need to write a very good book, and it will garner readers who will tell their friends and come back for more.


I don't think the other poster was advocating "churning out" poor-quality stuff, just saying focus on the writing as much as you can. Some people write very fast, and some people write more slowly, but odds are that most of us could devote a little more time to writing than we do. And our writing really is the only thing we have direct control over.


----------



## destill (Oct 5, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Whoa. Something like this happened to me too. I changed my keywords on both of my titles after reading a great post by Karen McQuestion on this topic, and then my books went unavailable for sale for a couple of days. You couldn't even find my titles with a search. Did changing your keywords make your book unavailable, and for how long?


Funny, I read the same Karen McQuestion blog and realized I'd screwed up on my use of keywords. My book remained available during the few days it went under review, but the sales have subsequently tanked. I can't be sure if that's a coincidence, given that so many other authors have experienced dramatic declines in sales during those same few days. What I CAN say is that the change in keywords hasn't INCREASED sales or exposure.


----------



## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

Let me chime in with observations about my own sales trends, FWIW.

After its late-June launch, _HUNTER_ sales fell to their nadir during the July 4th weekend. On July 6, it ranked at about #29,000 on the Kindle paid list. Then followed a quick, steady climb until August 19-21, where it ranked around #1900 in paid sales.

Then came 4 days of steady, inexplicable decline. From Aug. 26 - Sept. 2, sales bounced back once again to below-#2000 rankings. My best Kindle sales day to date was Sept. 2.

But then, September 3 sales plunged to about half that. Sales recovered slightly for a few days, fell off again from the 6th through the 9th (THE worst sales day since mid-August was 9/9). My sales have since been clawing back to the #2000 ranking, but are still a bit off from their high.

Now, if the algorithms have altered since late June, I can't pinpoint from my numbers exactly when the changes went into effect. Moreover, my graph does not track at all closely with Sarah Woodbury's. From Aug. 21-25, while her sales were peaking, mine were falling. From Aug. 25 - Sept. 2, while hers were falling off the cliff, mine were surging. About the only thing that seems remotely in synch with our trend lines is a partial recovery since about Sept. 9th -- which is certainly not long enough to suggest any overall KDP trend.

If Modwich is correct, any KDP algorithm changes may have occurred before my book went on sale in late June. If so, then these current trends may have to be attributed to other factors. Speculation: Perhaps a flood of free or backlist titles hitting all at once, or in waves, may have saturated the Kindle market and suppressed paid sales recently. If the titles were genre-specific, then perhaps they had a bigger impact on some genres instead of others, which might explain the differences in our experiences.

Hope this adds a few data points and considerations to the discussion.


----------



## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

Sarah Woodbury said:


> Because of this thread, I ran my numbers and I'm down 9%, for the most part, on August. I agree with Modwitch about the Amazon Algorithms, though it may be that they changed them in March to my benefit, and then something happened again around May 16th. Looking at my Author Central rankings is educational for September too. Let me see if I can insert an image:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where do you access sales graphs? Or did you generate it yourself with spreadsheet software?


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

destill said:


> Funny, I read the same Karen McQuestion blog and realized I'd screwed up on my use of keywords. My book remained available during the few days it went under review, but the sales have subsequently tanked. I can't be sure if that's a coincidence, given that so many other authors have experienced dramatic declines in sales during those same few days. What I CAN say is that the change in keywords hasn't INCREASED sales or exposure.


Another odd thing about this is that I don't know if my new keywords have really registered with the site. I have some specific ones that I would think I'd get good results with, but I'm still not showing up in those searches. I might need to contact kdp to see if my keywords are even working after I tried to improve them.


----------



## Grace Elliot (Mar 14, 2011)

Sybil Nelson said:


> Last month I averaged a little less than 50 books a day. Right now I'm at less than thirty. You people said September would be better! Anyway, I'm hoping to get a new release out this month so maybe that will help.
> 
> Anyone else finding September to be worse?


I understand it's an unsettling trend, but still pretty awesome figures...it's a marathon not a sprint, I'm sure it will pick up again.


----------



## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

Tommie, you get sales graphs from your page at Author Central. Click the tab "Sales Info," then scroll down to below the bar graph to "Amazon Bestsellers Rank History." Click on the "See more info...." link.


----------



## Lyndawrites (Aug 7, 2011)

meggjensen said:


> Lynda,
> 
> Don't despair. The best part of being indie published is that our books are there to be discovered at any time. They aren't going out of print and languishing in warehouses waiting for the black remainder marker. Write your books and when the time comes to distribute them, find the best way to do it. Times are changing quickly, yes, but adapting is our biggest strength right now.
> 
> ...


Thanks Megg. It's hard to keep going, hard to keep upbeat, sometimes, but I really appreciate your encoragement. Thank you.


----------



## Martin Perry (Aug 2, 2011)

I've had thousands of downloads of my free short stories, all of which have a sample of my non-free novel at the back.

Yeah... the conversion rate is very close to zero. Maybe I need to give people more than a week though.


----------



## amiblackwelder (Mar 19, 2010)

Sybil Nelson said:


> Nah, 30 a day isn't bad especially considering I sold nothing my first two months.


Shoot, 30 a day is great! I sell only about 100 a month. Of course I've been promoting myself for a year, off and on ...so this 2nd year of promoting I know much more about what to do and not...hopefully;0

amiblackwelder.blogspot.com


----------



## amiblackwelder (Mar 19, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> Agreed with modwitch, and I find it interesting how that coincides with how Amazon has created several publishing imprints themselves during that span of time. Loosening things up so they can better sell their own imprints' titles, perhaps?


off topic- but your books look really good.


----------



## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Sybil Nelson said:


> @Flannery
> 
> Your argument does have some truth to it. Especially when you think of movies etc. But there are exceptions. Sometimes a movie doesn't do well in theaters, but then develops a cult following and kills in DVD sales. One example I can think of is Office Space. Not that big in the box office but huge DVD sales. In music, an old unheard of song can suddenly become popular because it gets used in a commercial or something. So even with movies and music, big sales can come after the initial promotion. I think that is even more likely to happen with eBooks. A book can be limping along quietly with one or two sales a day and then suddenly gets mentioned in Huffington Post or John Locke's blog and take off. I think the difference is that with Trad books, the take off point is usually always at the beginning. With Indie books, that take-off moment can happen at any time. Just my opinion. I am by no means an expert.


Well, sure. I'm not saying that every book/movie/game/whatever is always immediately popular at the outset. There are many examples of movies that performed poorly at the theater only to find a faithful audience on DVD (Donnie Darko is another one). I wouldn't say that it's necessarily typical, but it does happen. And I do think that self-published books from authors without an established fan base aren't as likely to experience immediate sales as a trade published book.

My point is that no book is going to maintain high sales indefinitely. At a certain point, your book will peak. You may not realize that it's peaking at the time, but it'll happen. And once it does, you can probably expect to see subsequent slower sales barring a stroke of good luck...suddenly your genre becomes hot, or perhaps your book is mentioned somewhere noteworthy. Those types of events can obviously give a boost to an older book, but it's not something you can necessarily anticipate or expect. And if you've already done a good job of saturating your market, you'll get even less of a boost from those things than if you had extremely low sales before.

I think it's important for authors to recognize that at some point, sales numbers for a specific book will no longer trend upward. It's the way of the world. Stephen King undoubtedly sold fewer copies of "The Stand" this year than he did the year it came out. J.K. Rowling sells far fewer copies of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" now than she once did. It has nothing to do with "shelf life" (a concept that is quickly becoming irrelevant), because I guarantee I can walk into any bookstore and find those two books. But the decline in sales makes perfect sense, right? The fans have already bought those books. They're anxiously awaiting new material.

I mean, sure, Office Space found its audience after it came out on DVD, but I guarantee you that sales of those DVDs are far lower this year than the year that it peaked. Why? Because people who enjoy that type of movie have likely already seen it, or at least heard about it, and have already made the choice to either buy it or not. It doesn't matter _when_ the peak occurred. The point is that it has, and barring some renewed surge of interest, the movie will not continue to sell at the rate is once did. And honestly, even if there is renewed interest, much of the target audience has already purchased the DVD, so there are fewer possibilities to make sales (unless, of course, they lure people in by releasing a "very special edition", as the studios are so fond of doing).

I understand that this may be a partially separate issue than the OP, since I'm talking specifically about declining sales of older books and not lower on-average sales for a new book now vs. a new book a year ago, but I think it bears consideration. I see a lot of authors on KB with one or maybe two books who pour so much time, effort, and concern into marketing that single book, and who think they're doing something wrong if sales for that book decline. And I just want to assure them that no, they're not doing anything wrong. Nothing lasts forever. Yes, you may benefit from renewed interest, or a mention on a widely read blog, or whatever. But you certainly shouldn't count on that.

I feel as though a fair number of new self-published authors write a novel, upload it, and then put all of their eggs in that one basket. And it just doesn't work that way...I don't care if we're talking about ebooks or print books. Very few authors have ever made a living off just one or two books. It's about building up a backlist that will generate steady, if modest, income, and reveling in the boost that each new release brings you. That's the best advice I have for anyone hoping to make a career of this. And remember...while self-publishing has made it relatively easier for more authors to support themselves writing, making a living as an author has never been easy. Self-publishing may have changed a lot of things, but I don't believe it's the cash cow many of our newer authors believe it is.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Martin Perry said:


> I've had thousands of downloads of my free short stories, all of which have a sample of my non-free novel at the back.
> 
> Yeah... the conversion rate is very close to zero. Maybe I need to give people more than a week though.


If people don't buy the paid version of my novel within a day of downloading the free preview, I go and blast them on Twitter and Facebook. That's why I like to collect names and emails. Readers.


----------



## Martin Perry (Aug 2, 2011)

Haha. A unique approach!


----------



## amiblackwelder (Mar 19, 2010)

flanneryohello said:


> Well, sure. I'm not saying that every book/movie/game/whatever is always immediately popular at the outset. There are many examples of movies that performed poorly at the theater only to find a faithful audience on DVD (Donnie Darko is another one). I wouldn't say that it's necessarily typical, but it does happen. And I do think that self-published books from authors without an established fan base aren't as likely to experience immediate sales as a trade published book.
> 
> My point is that no book is going to maintain high sales indefinitely. At a certain point, your book will peak. You may not realize that it's peaking at the time, but it'll happen. And once it does, you can probably expect to see subsequent slower sales barring a stroke of good luck...suddenly your genre becomes hot, or perhaps your book is mentioned somewhere noteworthy. Those types of events can obviously give a boost to an older book, but it's not something you can necessarily anticipate or expect. And if you've already done a good job of saturating your market, you'll get even less of a boost from those things than if you had extremely low sales before.
> 
> ...


Very good advice, my thinking as well. I want to write 3-4 novels a year and hopefully have enough to be able to have a supplemental income e from it. I'm no amanda hocking -though I do believe my books to be more entertaining, cough cough- but I would like to be able to make enough money to supplement my income at some point


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

While I would love more sales of my books, I'm actually not too disappointed with the month. No Good Deed has not been priced at $2.99 since mid-Feb. It was 99cents up until it went free in June, back to 99 cents after a week, then free again in July for over two weeks, then back to 99 cents. I finally was able to get it all coordinated so that it is now $2.99 everywhere. My feeling was, that after 54,000 free downloads, and about 20,000 paid at 99 cents, I might have saturated the current market of readers who look for those books. So, now I'm trying out the $2.99 market again, only now, I have even more reviews. I'm even toying with raising to $3.99. 

The one thing I did change was to change (A Political Thriller) to (A Psychological Thriller). It is somewhat political, but not like a Vince Flynn type and a lot of people aren't into political books. I only did that a few days ago, and sales have increased slightly. 

Mostly though, I'm writing every day--even after my 12 hour shifts. I might only get 600 words on those days, but it's 600 I didn't have before. Other days, I'm getting 1200-2000 words, which is a big improvement for me. I had major writer's block all summer.

I guess my point is, I'm not panicking, and instead, I'm looking at this as a down-time for marketing, and putting my effort into writing. In a few months, there should be a new Kindle, plus Christmas to inject some new blood into the ebook market.


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Off topic, we're going to see him play live tonight.


Awesome! Where?


----------



## WilliamEsmont (May 3, 2010)

This is what August felt like...


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

Personally, I'm trying to keep to about 1200 words a day. That way I'll finish four unfinished books by the end of the year including editing etc.

@Flannery
Once again I agree with nearly everything you say. There is one big factor you are forgetting, thousands of more people are getting Kindles every day. So actually, there is still the potential for growth at least for a little while longer. Even without growth, there is still the potential for steady sales for at least a little while longer. How do you think that factors in?


----------



## WilliamKing.me (Jul 15, 2011)

@modwitch-- just wanted to say thanks for the calm and, I believe, sound analysis. Earlier I posted about how I had made some changes to my best-selling book and re-uploaded it and sales dropped like a stone. I now realise that it had just crossed the 30 day threshold as well. It had been bopping in and out of the UK Epic Fantasy top 100 for a month and now it isn't. Coincidence? I think not .

All the best,

Bill


----------



## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

*Modwitch*:

_We're going to have to compete on something other than price._

YES. I've been assuming and saying that all along.

You can never win a competition in which somebody else can match or exceed what you offer. When a zillion other writers and publishers can match or undercut you on price, then low pricing isn't a viable path to success. It's only a path to poverty.

You can win if you offer your target audience something that your competitors (a) can't give them, or (b) don't WANT to give them. In marketing, that is known as effective "positioning."

Branding yourself and/or your story concept and/or your characters as something unique, and as something that others either can't or won't want to imitate, is the key to success in the competitive marketplace.


----------



## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Just catching up on this thread. Thank you everyone for the analysis, especially Modwitch (your pro experience is invaluable, so thanks for sharing it). 

I've been focused on getting a new book out (in two weeks) and have been ignoring the performance of the two I've got out there. I find the idea that the produce model is reasserting itself (with or without help from Amazon) to be persuasive--especially for those of us at the beginning of our careers.
Though I have hopes for the profitable ebook backlist when I'm more established.

Anyone have experiences on BN or Apple to share that conflict or match their Amazon sales?


----------



## WilliamEsmont (May 3, 2010)

Sybil Nelson said:


> Personally, I'm trying to keep to about 1200 words a day. That way I'll finish four unfinished books by the end of the year including editing etc.
> 
> @Flannery
> Once again I agree with nearly everything you say. There is one big factor you are forgetting, thousands of more people are getting Kindles every day. So actually, there is still the potential for growth at least for a little while longer. Even without growth, there is still the potential for steady sales for at least a little while longer. How do you think that factors in?


I wish I could keep up my word count while I was doing revisions & editing, but it seems to be an either/or thing for me.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Sybil Nelson said:


> Awesome! Where?


They're in Phoenix tonight. I haven't seen him play live before. w00t


----------



## Sarah Woodbury (Jan 30, 2011)

And just as a side note--this is another Woeful Wednesday for me.  No sales in hours when I sell about 100 books a day normally.


----------



## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

My sales have waned since August. I can't exactly complained, but having gone from every book in the top 50 (and two in the top 10) on either the sci-fi or horror bestseller lists from around May through mid-July, the sales thus far this month are a bit sobering. 

But, as has been said before, it's a marathon, and the best solution is to keep writing new books, and that's what I'm doing...


----------



## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

Holy [email protected] I was below 2,000 with Threads a few days ago, and am now dancing at the threshold of 6,000. I haven't done that in MONTHS. And, I have a new book out, which sold a copy a day for two months, and is now selling a copy every THREE days. I hate the new algorithms. Hate hate hate.

Let me add this though (because I don't know where else to add it). I got a truly wonderful review on Smashwords yesterday for Hang On - and the reviewer designated me her only (or first) favorite author, and also friended me on Facebook. See this: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/69024, Yay!!!


----------



## Sarah Woodbury (Jan 30, 2011)

And this 'new book' list of which someone spoke . . . my new releases (The Pendragon's Quest and it's bundle) are not on it.  Are indie books no longer on this list and that is part of the problem?  Or just not mine for some reason?  Both should be in fantasy > historical.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Sarah, what list are you looking at?

Both are on this one: [snip]

Hope that link works.

ETA: didn't work. It's the Kindle Store › Kindle eBooks › Fantasy › Historical › Last 30 days list.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

modwitch said:


> I'm not flannery, but here's my two cents . I don't think the new readers are going to make much difference for books that aren't in the top 50 in their genre bestseller lists. The first adopters of the Kindle dug for books. I don't think the new group of ereader owners does. If you only read 3-4 books a month, you're a lot more likely to stick with known authors and/or known genres, and you don't need to wander far off the beaten path.


Going to counter with what I know.

I bought my mom a Kindle about...three weeks ago, I think. She didn't read all that often, but was starting to go to the library where she couldn't find stuff she wanted to read (small library doesn't help). Now she has her Kindle, she mentioned this to me:

"I think I'm having more fun finding books than actually reading them."

This doesn't mean she's not having fun reading (my dad's been complaining about how she was up until well past midnight snuggled up with her Kindle). But there's a lot of people who enjoy searching for new reads, who like digging through all the weird stuff to see if they find some gems. As the Kindle gets cheaper, and far more popular, you'll get more people like my mom: the coupon clippers, the bargain hunters, the garage-sailing queens of the world (and no I'm not talking about Ed Patterson...). We'll benefit in that crowd. The people who "buy" 3-4 books a month probably supplement a ton of reading at libraries, second-hand book stores, etc. When you're suddenly not paying 25 bucks a pop for a new work, you can buy a heck of a lot more.

And honestly...I checked. From July to August last year my individual books sold about 15% less. And then again, about 20% less in September compared to the previous month. It's happening again this month. No reason to suddenly panic and imagine the end of the indie era based on what people have been saying would happen since January.


----------



## Sarah Woodbury (Jan 30, 2011)

Hmm, I see the problem. I see them there too at number 4 and 12, but I was on another list that I got to by typing 'new books' in at the Kindle slot. So the 5 historical fantasy books on that list must have tags that say 'new book'. Clever. Only #11 on the other list was there.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_n_22?rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3Anew+books%2Cn%3A%21133141011%2Cn%3A154606011%2Cn%3A158576011&bbn=154606011&keywords=new+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1316043003&rnid=154606011#/ref=sr_nr_p_n_date_0?rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3Anew+books%2Cn%3A%21133141011%2Cn%3A154606011%2Cn%3A158576011%2Cp_n_date%3A1249100011&bbn=158576011&keywords=new+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1316043010&rnid=1249099011

Whew. Thanks, Monique! Glad you found that.


----------



## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Sybil Nelson said:


> @Flannery
> Once again I agree with nearly everything you say. There is one big factor you are forgetting, thousands of more people are getting Kindles every day. So actually, there is still the potential for growth at least for a little while longer. Even without growth, there is still the potential for steady sales for at least a little while longer. How do you think that factors in?


I absolutely believe that ebook sales will continue to grow as more and more people make the transition to e-readers. Does that mean that most individual authors can expect constant growth or steady sales indefinitely? I don't think so. Yes, people switching from print books to ebooks may increase their monthly purchases due to cheaper prices and convenience, but I don't think this will translate into climbing or indefinitely steady sales for your average indie author. You also have to consider that while there are certainly many new Kindles sold every day, there are also many, many new books being published every day. There are also those pesky backlists being released for ebook.

The thing is, I don't think this all amounts to doom and gloom...but maybe that's because I'm already very used to the "produce" model for books. I've become accustomed to the notion that once I write a book and it's published, the only real thing to do is write another. Yes, marketing and promotion help in the beginning (the advantage of having a publisher, of course, is that I don't have to do that part alone), but marketing any one book should never become the writer's focus. You will always need to come up with new material to keep readers interested. As long as you maintain that attitude, the ups and downs of any one book cease to seem so important. If you've got one book with lukewarm sales, it will feel like a big problem. If you have 15 books with lukewarm sales, you're probably earning a decent royalty check.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

What we don't know about the produce model is whether eBooks will behave like apples or jars of apple sauce. Both have a shelf life, and neither lasts forever.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I wonder if Kindle sales are down as people wait to see what the Amazon tablet will look like.


----------



## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

Robert Bidinotto said:


> Tommie, you get sales graphs from your page at Author Central. Click the tab "Sales Info," then scroll down to below the bar graph to "Amazon Bestsellers Rank History." Click on the "See more info...." link.


Thanks, Robert. I appreciate it.


----------



## Guest (Sep 15, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I'll offer up that books "holding steady in the ranks" is a LOT less common than it was six months ago. People are headed up, people are headed down.


This sounds about right to me. Things are a lot more volatile now. Authors can still enjoy a month or two as books ramp up big sales, and claw and fret as they gradually decline, but there used to be books that would just hang out for months at a time with some consistency, and that doesn't seem to be happening so much. Just speculation on my part based on observations.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"I wonder if Kindle sales are down as people wait to see what the Amazon tablet will look like."_

Mod,

I meant Kindle units, not books. A lack of unit sales would be a downward pressure on rate of book sales increases - first derivative positive, second negative. Your answer could apply to either books or units, but I thought I'd just make it clear so I could sleep peacefully tonight.


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm chiming in with the slower in September crowd. I'm still selling but not as well as last month, despite having a new release out. Granted, the new release is at a higher price point so I knew sales would come tougher with this one.  

I hope to put out two more novelettes before the end of the month and hopefully that'll do me some good. I've also got two more projects I want out by Christmas but we'll see how it goes.


----------



## Sarah Woodbury (Jan 30, 2011)

modwitch said:


> And Pendragon's Quest is #9 on the hot new releases list for historical fantasy: http://www.amazon.com/gp/new-releases/digital-text/158582011/ref=zg_bs_tab
> 
> I didn't see that either! Thanks!


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

BTW, I now have chocolate. 90% cocoa. The strong stuff. All is good with the world again.


----------



## ToniD (May 3, 2011)

I'm in the slower-sales crowd too. Hoping for garage-sale browsers but in the meantime I'll have some of that dark dark strong chocolate please. And get back to writing.


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> They're in Phoenix tonight. I haven't seen him play live before. w00t


Let me know how it is. He was in Charleston last year and I missed him because I hadn't heard of him. Big regret.


----------



## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

Debora, a question especially for you: 

You are reader-ranked high on the "Top Rated in Fantasy" list, currently holding down the #1 and #4 spots. Do you think that these "Top Rated" lists are helping generate sales for you? I ask because I'm highly placed on several of those myself, and I'm virtually positive that they are helping to drive up and sustain my sales.

If anyone else has strong reader-ratings and resulting high rankings on subgenre lists, I'm curious about your own experiences and opinions.


----------



## Artemis Hunt (Aug 23, 2011)

I'm with all of you who changed my keywords after I read Karen McQuestion's blog. When it was in Publishing status . . . no sales at all. Then a rash of 4 immediately over the few hours when it first went live. (I'm still in my third week as an indie, so 4 sales in a couple of hours is big for me). After that, 2 more on Monday.

Then....nothing!


----------



## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

I'll take the blame for the algo change. I am notorious for missing the boat and making things go south, LOL. I buy silver and the price of silver goes down. I get a long-sought-after part time gig and the payrate goes down. I publish on Kindle and Amazon changes the algorithm.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Sales for SAHS flatlined several days after the 30-day window closed, coinciding with my changing the novella's cover and description, which seems to be a common story. Mendacities, of course, never sold _well_, and now isn't selling _at all_ - no Kindle sales in five weeks, no paperback sales since late May - but that's just the story of my life.  Much less explicable is the complete lack of activity for my first Victorian novella, which was released in April (so any 30/90-day new release benefits had long since expired) and had been selling pretty steadily right up until September 1st, after which... poof, absolutely nothing.

Unrelated to Kindle sales, possibly, but the sales rank on my paperback has been tanking at a faster-than-anticipated rate the last week or so. It had been dropping 3,000-3,500 per day, but it's picked up to losing 5,000-7,000 per day, meaning I'm going to hit the 4,000,000 kiss-of-death point... this weekend, probably.

What I take away from this discussion is that for an F-list author like myself, books are presently as good as dead after thirty-ish days, and promoting older titles is essentially futile, as generating any kind of traction at the arse end of the long tail has become prohibitively improbable. This may actually be a blessing, as my promotional abilities are perhaps the only thing inferior to my writing skills, which now seems the sole thing to concentrate on.


----------



## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't believe for an instant that Amazon is trying to make it difficult for indie writers to find success. Why would Amazon want to shoot itself in the foot? If the system is making it tough on indie writers, my guess is that it is unintentional and likely temporary. 

I also don't think being ranked in the top 500 means you're safe and consistent as opposed to being ranked anywhere else. The market can change in an instant and sales can take a dive. Sales can, and will, rise and fall, and this rising and falling is very difficult to predict or understand.

Amazon won't kill your career. YOU will kill your career, when you give in to fear, depression, and panic--when you fail to focus on writing and promoting great books. When you fail to focus on building a name for yourself.

E-books are here to stay, and so is talk of doom and gloom. Many writers will panic and leap from the bridge, never to be seen again. Only their echoed words of blame, directed at anyone other than themselves, will remain to mark their passing. Others will trudge on ahead to the Golden City and feel glad they didn't jump off.

Dude, I let my coffee get cold. Blah!


----------



## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

And please...PLEASE don't think your books are dead after a month, folks. They haven't even gotten started yet. MANY writers on here, including myself, started off poorly. But things can get rolling at any time and really pick up steam.


----------



## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Robert E. Keller said:


> I don't believe for an instant that Amazon is trying to make it difficult for indie writers to find success. Why would Amazon want to shoot itself in the foot? If the system is making it tough on indie writers, my guess is that it is unintentional and likely temporary.
> 
> I also don't think being ranked in the top 500 means you're safe and consistent as opposed to being ranked anywhere else. The market can change in an instant and sales can take a dive. Sales can, and will, rise and fall, and this rising and falling is very difficult to predict or understand.
> 
> ...


Well said. And all of the evidence points to that the first 4 months of sales give absolutely no indication of how well the book will eventually do. Month 5 is a completely different matter though. Seriously, look at the posts where authors share their sales over time. The 5th month is usual an indicator of how an author does in 8 or 9 months... sadly.


----------



## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

My sales never got passed a crawl to start with   Not that I'm worried - I'm working on 1) re-editing everything 'cause it needs it and 2) finishing off a pile of other projects.  When that is done I'll worry about some form of promotion.


----------



## Kristie Leigh Maguire (Feb 24, 2010)

EC Sheedy said:


> When sales are falling, has anyone tried the advice of changing their blurbs and covers? I've heard this recommended and wondered how successful it would be in increasing sales.


I changed the covers and blurbs for my books recently. I also added subtitles for some of them. I have found an increase in sales, particularly for my Second Chances. My September sales for it are the best they've been in a long time. The sales have picked up a tad for the other books since I changed the covers and blurbs.


----------



## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

Well, the last 12 hours have been pathetic: about a half-dozen Kindle sales. Maybe the Phantom Algorithm has finally caught up with me!

@ Modwitch: Did you see my earlier question, above? Curious if you think that your very high customer ratings have helped your sales, since you're at the top of a couple of genre lists in "Top Rated." I definitely think high reader ratings have helped me.

Anyone else have experience/insights about this?


----------



## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

Robert E. Keller said:


> And please...PLEASE don't think your books are dead after a month, folks. They haven't even gotten started yet. MANY writers on here, including myself, started off poorly. But things can get rolling at any time and really pick up steam.


That's certainly true - the first month after I'd published IN HER NAME back in 2008, it sold 3 copies. I thought that was awesome! 

It doesn't make sense for Amazon to introduce a bias against self-published authors, and certainly not after all the hubbub they raised about John Locke, in particular. And I don't think it's an effort to tilt the field toward the Big 6 publishers. Jeff Bezos made a stand against them over the ridiculous agency pricing model (which pretty much did away with the $9.99 top end price for Big 6 books). While he ultimately had to give in, it was a well-publicized battle, and I doubt he's secretly succumbed to any pressure from them to smack down the SP folks.

Algorithm changes, maybe. But again, even if they did change something, the system is likely going to settle into a new equilibrium, or they'll tweak it again.

I've got 7 books out, and all of them have been doing a backslide since late July. All of them were ranked between 2,500 and 300 in the Kindle store from roughly May through then; now the top one's around 2,000 and the others are in the 3,000-6,000 range. I'm trying to build the habit of NOT looking at the sales figures constantly, because there's absolutely nothing I can do about them.

I don't know why sales are sliding, but the only thing we can really do about this is to keep writing and publishing great new books while we continue to build our fan base. Over time, I believe those things are really the biggest keys to our success.


----------



## Guest (Sep 15, 2011)

Michael R. Hicks said:


> I've got 7 books out, and all of them have been doing a backslide since late July. All of them were ranked between 2,500 and 300 in the Kindle store from roughly May through then; now the top one's around 2,000 and the others are in the 3,000-6,000 range. I'm trying to build the habit of NOT looking at the sales figures constantly, because there's absolutely nothing I can do about them.
> 
> I don't know why sales are sliding, but the only thing we can really do about this is to keep writing and publishing great new books while we continue to build our fan base. Over time, I believe those things are really the biggest keys to our success.


A lot of people are in this boat, as far as the time frame goes, and it might be something we nostalgically reminisce about as the 'Golden Age' of Self-Publishing. Lately I've been thinking about how much a factor these recommendations really are when 99% of the reading population still has no idea we or any specific author exists. Yes, it's great to have readers coming back to us, and that's definitely what makes it worthwhile for me, but this helping hand exposing us to new readers is really crucial, and that's not really happening so much now, as our rankings show.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Robert Bidinotto said:


> @ Modwitch: Did you see my earlier question, above? Curious if you think that your very high customer ratings have helped your sales, since you're at the top of a couple of genre lists in "Top Rated." I definitely think high reader ratings have helped me.
> 
> Anyone else have experience/insights about this?


I think there's no doubt that the top-rated lists help. I've watched books at the top of those lists sell and then seen sales of those books drop off when the books left the charts.

It makes sense, too, because if you're looking for a _good_ book, that's one of the first places you should be hunting--not the bestseller lists.


----------



## D Girard Watson (Apr 4, 2011)

One of the issues here is that we all depend on Amazon (and to a lesser extent B&N and Smashwords). Ironically, this is exactly the same thing the big publishers were afraid of when ebooks first became available on the kindle.  Things get dangerous when there's only one guy selling your stuff because he gets to call the shots.  I guess competition = good.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

My favorite eReader and software for sitting at home is the iPad and iBooks. So for some books I will use the Amazon search engines to find a book, then buy it on iBooks. I'd say Amazon's big competitive advantage is their search engines. Nothing else comes close. Apple can do it, but they haven't. That's an interesting puzzle.


----------



## destill (Oct 5, 2010)

When I owned a women's clothing store (many years ago), every few weeks, when the newest inventory became stale and sales slowed, I'd rearrange the ENTIRE store. Same merchandise, different location for EVERYTHING. Immediately, sales would pick up. Merchandise that regular customers had grown tired of viewing at the front of the store was moved to the back and replaced by goods that had been overlooked. It always amazed me that I could make sales increase by simply rearranging what was already in the store. 

Maybe Amazon has discovered that having the same books appear on the top 100 lists for prolonged periods causes viewer fatigue. (I don't know. I'm just guessing.) When Amazon changes the algorithms, it's the equivalent of me rearranging the inventory in my physical store. Now, if you're one of those authors who loses sales by being bumped from the top 100 lists or pages, that's not good. But if Amazon boosts collective book sales by reshuffling the store, they'll continue this process. What we have to do is figure out how not to become dependent on the algorithms. It's wonderful when the algos love us, and it is painful when we're no longer the "flavor of the month."


----------



## FastPop (Dec 22, 2010)

Right now, it's the "era of experimentation" -- everyone is still seeing what sells and does not sell.

The focus should still be on great content.


----------



## cblewgolf (Jan 3, 2011)

@ Robert, yes I definitely think being high on sub-category lists helps sales.
I am # 1 in Sports Gambling and have been for a while.
Once I reached that status, I know almost exactly how many sales are coming in per day.
Before that it was very erratic.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Amazon's algos are still golden for helping readers find obscure (=non-bestseller) authors/books compared to anyone else.


This is very true. I don't think half of us would be where we are without Amazon having made it so much easier for readers to find our work.


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

I own a Nook, but I still use Amazon to search for a book and then buy it at B&N.


----------



## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

All the above seems, to me, to be a perfect reason for self-published authors to shift their focus away from attempting to manipulate and understand Amazon's algorithims and toward strategies that will actually help them get noticed. Write more books(!), submit short stories to anthologies or magazines, pursue blog reviews, start a blog about something people care about, participate in various discussion forums and social networking sites, get caught up in a racy political scandal (kidding...though it'll probably work), etc. If your primary marketing tool is Amazon itself, then you're leaving yourself at the mercy of their internal, unknowable system changes. Yes, Amazon is a tremendous resource for self-published authors, but hoping that a profit-seeking entity will always act in a way that's beneficial to you is probably futile. 

I think the authors who will thrive in the current environment will be the ones who a) write good books (so often that gets overlooked...lol), and b) diversify their marketing and sales efforts enough so that their career does not depend on any single entity's algorithims or internal business practices. Of course, there will still be those lucky few who benefit from algorithims or strokes of luck, but counting on an algorithim to do the work for you is awfully risky. I'm not saying that diversifying is an easy task or that I know how to do it, exactly...but it's the conclusion I draw from this thread. Relying upon Amazon to spoon-feed your books to their customers will only take you so far...especially when you consider how many new Kindle books are published every day. As the number of books grows, being "found" through Amazon will only get tougher.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

All that can be done while still maintaining a reasonable level of understanding of the tools Amazon provides to consumers.


----------



## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

*flanneryohello:*



> I think the authors who will thrive in the current environment will be the ones who a) *write good books* (so often that gets overlooked...lol), and b) *diversify their marketing and sales efforts *enough so that their career does not depend on any single entity's algorithims or internal business practices.... Relying upon Amazon to spoon-feed your books to their customers will only take you so far...especially when you consider how many new Kindle books are published every day. As the number of books grows, being "found" through Amazon will only get tougher.


Amen.

As I said, for me, Kindle sales have fallen off a cliff today, for no apparent reason. I've done my usual Tweeting and Facebooking, and _HUNTER_ received yet another 5-star review this a.m. Yet my my rankings within the relevant categories also have plunged, and since I don't see lots of fresh, competitive titles entering the list above mine, the fall today apparently is a quirk having nothing to do with my promotional efforts, or algorithms, or anything else.

My response was not to wail and gnash teeth. It was to write a guest blog (to appear tomorrow) and to answer questions for two online interview sites. I also trawled the local drugstore to see if they were planning to discard any cardboard displays that could hold my print edition. I found one that's absolutely perfect, and took it over to a local wine shop and deli whose owner is enthusiastic about the book and wants to sell it. He's buying ten copies outright, for resale. And I checked a local restaurant down the street where they're carrying the thriller in the glass display case beneath the cash register. They'd sold three copies. Tomorrow, I'll draft a feature article about the book and me, and pitch it to my old hometown newspaper -- a "local boy makes good" story. I think they'll eat it up.

The point is exactly the one made by Flanneryohello: You write good books, and then you market them by cultivating multiple sales outlets. You don't put all your eggs in one basket.


----------



## Sarah Woodbury (Jan 30, 2011)

Modwitch--Since your books are selling very well, that looks like a viable strategy!


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

There's lots of good advice here, but really there's nothing else I can do. I've tried the marketing hamster wheel and it's exhausting especially with two kids and working on a PhD. I barely have time to keep up with my Priscilla the Great Newsletter. I decided to spend all my extra energy writing and releasing my next four books by December. I'm also doing three conferences in November, speaking at two and having a table at the third. That's all I can do for now.


----------



## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

modwitch said:


> It's d*mn hard to "manipulate" the amazon algorithms - but you can do things that increase your ability to take advantage of them.
> 
> The short version of what I'm doing - and it's very intentionally aimed at benefitting from the algorithms to help me build an audience... I've built an email list big enough to help my books past that initial "visibility" hump. I'm writing very related books with visually related covers, so that when they get visible, lots of my previous readers recognize the covers on "drive by" as they browse amazon (which hopefully increases the chances of them noticing, clicking, and buying). I'm releasing often, so that at least one of my books is taking advantage of the "freshness" bonus and hot new releases lists as often as possible. (And yeah, that's a ton easier to do when writing is your full-time job).
> 
> ...


But if you don't have an email list of readers, how do you do this? You've climbed the mountain, and while you may need to climb it again with each new book, that initial climb up netted you that email list. Now it's harder to make that initial climb.

I've been very suspect of the marketing that people on KB do. I've talked to too many writers who have pushed the heck out of a book and not given any push to a different book, and they've had essentially the same results. To me it seems that the kind of marketing push you need to make a difference requires an inordinate amount of time.

It's a bit discouraging to see that it's harder to climb the sales ranks and stay there, but it's still a time of great opportunity for writers.


----------



## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

modwitch said:


> It's d*mn hard to "manipulate" the amazon algorithms - but you can do things that increase your ability to take advantage of them.
> 
> The short version of what I'm doing - and it's very intentionally aimed at benefitting from the algorithms to help me build an audience... I've built an email list big enough to help my books past that initial "visibility" hump.


Just so I understand this, I take it you get an initial burst of sales from your email list, and that sales burst zooms you up the rankings and onto the "hot" lists?


----------



## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> All that can be done while still maintaining a reasonable level of understanding of the tools Amazon provides to consumers.


Did you honestly think I was advocating that people be deliberately oblivious about how Amazon works?


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

No. Did you honestly think I thought you thought that?


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> No. Did you honestly think I thought you thought that?


Do you honestly think I thought you thought she thought you thought that it was me in the observatory with the lamp post?


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

On second thought, I honestly thought who's on second.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't run from the hard questions, Modwitch. Tell us more about this:



modwitch said:


> Nutella cookie recipes.


And then maybe we'll get somewhere.

P.S. Also, thanks for the data analysis and the sharing. Information gold.
P.P.S. I'm kinda serious about that Nutella cookie thing. I want to hear allll about that. In detail.


----------



## melissafmiller (Feb 17, 2011)

modwitch said:


> You work on it one reader at a time. When I put out my first novella in February, I had zero readers. None. But I have things in place to pick up readers after they read my books. A simple website, an email list, a facebook page. Facebook seems to be where my biggest fans congregate. And we do really hard work like sharing Nutella cookie recipes.
> 
> The thing is, that novella never made it big. I did a giveaway - that got me some names. I picked up readers one at a time on my email list. I got lucky - A Modern Witch caught a ride. But it didn't hurt to have 150 people to email when I launched it. And even if I'd been on the hot new releases list 30 days instead of 90, it would still have sold a lot of copies, and gained me a lot of new readers - and those would help launch the next book a little higher, a little faster.
> 
> ...


Well, I must be doing something wrong. I have sold approximately 1,250 copies since the book launched four months ago and have captured the e-mails of, oh, 12 people who either friended me, followed me, e-mailed me, or signed up for my newsletter. I was told there would be no math, but what is that--almost 1%. If I include the acquaintances who bought the book and then subsequently sent e-mails asking me to let them know when the second one comes out and the librarians at my local library who ask me the same thing every time I return materials, I *might* bump that number alllll the way up to 25, so call it 2%.


----------



## aaronpolson (Apr 4, 2010)

Mmmm... 

Nutella.


----------



## kisala9906 (Sep 4, 2011)

melissafmiller said:


> Well, I must be doing something wrong. I have sold approximately 1,250 copies since the book launched four months ago and have captured the e-mails of, oh, 12 people who either friended me, followed me, e-mailed me, or signed up for my newsletter. I was told there would be no math, but what is that--almost 1%. If I include the acquaintances who bought the book and then subsequently sent e-mails asking me to let them know when the second one comes out and the librarians at my local library who ask me the same thing every time I return materials, I *might* bump that number alllll the way up to 25, so call it 2%.


I just checked out your book and actually looks interesting, anyway added it to my to read list. 
I am actually horrible about joining mailing list and if I do reading them but I do fan authors on FB all the time any that I can find! Are you on facebook? Does that help you with sales at all?


----------



## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

melissafmiller said:


> Well, I must be doing something wrong. I have sold approximately 1,250 copies since the book launched four months ago and have captured the e-mails of, oh, 12 people who either friended me, followed me, e-mailed me, or signed up for my newsletter. I was told there would be no math, but what is that--almost 1%. If I include the acquaintances who bought the book and then subsequently sent e-mails asking me to let them know when the second one comes out and the librarians at my local library who ask me the same thing every time I return materials, I *might* bump that number alllll the way up to 25, so call it 2%.


I wonder if your experience is more normal than Modwitch's? She had a 10% opt-in, which seems remarkably high to me.


----------



## melissafmiller (Feb 17, 2011)

kisala9906 said:


> I just checked out your book and actually looks interesting, anyway added it to my to read list.
> I am actually horrible about joining mailing list and if I do reading them but I do fan authors on FB all the time any that I can find! Are you on facebook? Does that help you with sales at all?


Hey, thanks! 

I am on facebook, but I am pretty sure everyone who likes my author page came to it AFTER they read the book, so the sales led them to the page, not the other way around. I will certainly let them knwo when the next book is coming out, but I get paranoid about seeming spammy, so I don't update my author page nearly as much as I should. I did just ask them for some book recommendations for my almost six-year-old son. Speaking of, I should probably ask this group, too, but I won't threadjack.

Wonder if thriller readers like nutella?


----------



## kisala9906 (Sep 4, 2011)

I may be odd or something but I don't mind when authors post a lot of try to get me to read there books and send me messages telling me about a new book etc... if I like it I will read it if I don't I won't but I never ever mind hearing about a new book even if it is from the author! Idk I guess they may seem odd to some people as I know some do not feel that way but I can imagine how hard it must be to promote your books and once someone buys it once, well that is it in a way until you write a new book so you have to sell a lot of books! Anyway getting off point here, I don't think you would sound or be spammy if you post "often" lets people get to know you.  
I personally never read blogs IDK why I just can't get into them and I don't really go on Twitter anymore either mainly here, goodreads, and facebook to find new books.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

melissafmiller said:


> Well, I must be doing something wrong. I have sold approximately 1,250 copies since the book launched four months ago and have captured the e-mails of, oh, 12 people who either friended me, followed me, e-mailed me, or signed up for my newsletter. I was told there would be no math, but what is that--almost 1%. If I include the acquaintances who bought the book and then subsequently sent e-mails asking me to let them know when the second one comes out and the librarians at my local library who ask me the same thing every time I return materials, I *might* bump that number alllll the way up to 25, so call it 2%.


I think the only way you get people to sign up for an email list is to actually recruit them. Ask them occasionally to sign up for your list on your fan page. Ask them in your email signature. Ask them with a link at the end of your Kindle book. Hold a give away for all your email list participants when each new book is launched and advertise the heck out of it.

I got about fifty just by asking on Facebook and holding a giveaway for a signed copy. I am doing an ebook giveaway on Librarything right now and when I contact the winners I will ask each on of them to sign up, with the opportunity to win a hard copy. In general only super crazy fans will seek out your website and search for the newsletter link. If it's right in front of them with a click here link they are more apt to do it.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> I wonder if your experience is more normal than Modwitch's? She had a 10% opt-in, which seems remarkably high to me.


10% does seem really high.


----------



## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

My numbers have been really random for the last couple of months - I still _mostly_ sell around 30 - 40 a month but last month didn't even crack 10 so I don't really know - I haven't changed anything I'm doing, except I'm trying a sale this month. I really think you've got to keep putting books out there - which I haven't really done but I'm blaming my illness at the start of the year for a lot of that, I lost 8 months of my life to being sick which makes it hard to write.


----------



## Lever1 (Aug 8, 2010)

My situaton has been roughly the same as Melissa's as far as opt-ins, etc are concerned with the exception of the sales results. In the two months my newest thriller has been available, I've sold roughly 125 copies...August was much better for me than September has been, but I would attribute that to a Thriller of the Wrek feature which ran at KND in early August.

And what the hell is nutella? More to the point, will trying it get me readers?


----------



## melissafmiller (Feb 17, 2011)

Modwitch,

Thank you for the feedback!  IDNK that my form wasn't displaying properly. I use Chrome for my browser and it looks okay to me, but I just opened it in Safari and IE and it looks pretty crappy, so I will attend to both the substantive (why am I signing up) and the stylistic issues.

Question on your facebook set up: Do you maintain a separate facebook account for truly personal stuff?  We don't live terribly close to most of our friends and family at the moment, so a lot of my facebooking is about the kids or other people's kids, so I have my privacy controls set pretty tight.  I thought, but maybe I am wrong, as is often the case, that one person could not maintain two individual pages?


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

DChase said:


> 10% does seem really high.


Many years ago I published a national fantasy and sci-fi magazine which developed a loyal base of regular readers (Australian Realms, which I eventually sold).

When we brought out other product we knew that 10% of our readers would buy it (direct). We also had a constant 10% who were subscribers (yeah, pretty much the same people). And when we went to market with any new product we could always bank on that 10%, with many of them ordering in advance - and thus paying for a good part of our production costs.

If you're delivering a consistently solid product you will build a loyal base. You just need to let that 10% know what you'd love to see them do. Many of them will only be too happy to comply. Such a fanbase is your career's foundation.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

modwitch said:


> I just found a fan page felt like shouting - they can hear me, but I can't see them. Too one-way.


I understand that you're connecting with readers on a personal level. But there's a flip side to this. There are writers or musical groups, even businesses, whose fan pages I've 'liked' because I want to be kept informed of when they have a new release or product coming out or will be making an appearance somewhere. Just me, maybe, but I'd prefer not to have someone on the 'friends' list of my personal account who I don't really know. So if, say, Mitch Albom sent me a friend request on FB and he and I had never spoken, I'd think that was a little... weird. In those cases, I actually want more of a one-way communication. On fan pages, I'm still free to comment on their posts and they almost always respond to 'fans' in some fashion. But to me, from the consumer/reader perspective, there's a line between being an admirer and being a friend. Does that make sense?


----------



## Ann Chambers (Apr 24, 2011)

*Frantically taking notes while baking Nutella cookies*
I just love the turn this thread has taken. Thanks so much to Modwitch and other more experienced indies for all the great information about FB/websites and other marketing tools! I will soon launch 5 more little titles and am thinking to start a small web presence of some sort. 
This kind of information exchange is IMO one of the best parts of KB.


----------



## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Ann Chambers said:


> *Frantically taking notes while baking Nutella cookies*
> I just love the turn this thread has taken. Thanks so much to Modwitch and other more experienced indies for all the great information about FB/websites and other marketing tools! I will soon launch 5 more little titles and am thinking to start a small web presence of some sort.
> This kind of information exchange is IMO one of the best parts of KB.


Totally agree.

And Modwitch... I have a bulk case of nutella and I know how to use it. Can we make out? I think I love you.

M


----------



## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Ditto to the grabbing-a-notebook out of appreciation for Modwitch. I hear about "build a mailing list" and having a FB page, but I've avoided those two things because I don't like getting mailings or hanging out of FB. And because I didn't really know how to do it.

But I have to admit it just might be necessary. That's how traditionally/print-published authors build their readership. It's taking control of your own career. When you have a new release, you can tell those people who care. I know of some bestselling writers who use their personal email list to drive first-day sales velocity (which is what lands you on the NYTimes), not just overall numbers (USA Today, etc.)

How about Google+, I wonder? 

Modwitch, if you put your tech/marketing knowledge together in an ebook, I'd buy it. Just saying.


----------



## ToniD (May 3, 2011)

Yes, this thread has been a great tutorial.

I've started my own Modwitch file.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

modwitch said:


> This. I really feel like email lists (or some higher tech way of doing the same thing) is the long-term way for a writer to stay successful no matter what any of the vendors, including amazon, does in future. True fans will read your next book written two words at a time in FB status updates. Or order it from upper Tasmania via dolphin delivery.


I couldn't agree more. I have a substantial email list for my art business and when Etsy, Ebay, and other sites start messing with search and other site functions, the list is what saves us.


----------



## Consuelo Saah Baehr (Aug 27, 2010)

My sales are down from  thirtysomething to twentysomething.  Hope it picks up for all of us.


----------



## Lever1 (Aug 8, 2010)

Modwitch, thanks very much for taking the time to check out my site and the signup form. I have to admit I don't know what analytics are and they'd have to hit me over the head for me to know if I have them. Moving the signup to the home page is a great idea and I'll talk to my web person; God knows I wouldn't know how to do it myself!

As you might have guessed by now, I'm pretty comfortable with writing, but everything else about marketing, promotions, etc. is basically a mystery to me...


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

modwitch said:


> True fans will read your next book written two words at a time in FB status updates. Or order it from upper Tasmania via dolphin delivery.


Well, if none of my other ventures work out, I now have a new plan B: Dolphin delivery service.

Meanwhile, the modwitch file gets bigger!


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

I have over 250 people signed up for my Priscilla the Great newsletter, but most of those are 12-year-olds with no buying power.

I don't have a newsletter for my Leslie DuBois titles, but I do have a fanpage with 100 members. I think I'll start converting them into a mailing list.

I just have to remember "One reader at a time"


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Sybil Nelson said:


> I have over 250 people signed up for my Priscilla the Great newsletter, *but most of those are 12-year-olds with no buying power*.


I think you might be underestimating the power of nagging children. I'd be looking to try and convert those "no buys" into kids with your books on their christmas lists. You just need to look for the opportunities and then plan for them, ie. A newsletter in mid November that perhaps promotes a Christmas release, but also suggests getting any series books a fan has missed for Christmas.

I do a Facebook fan page post early December each year where, for example, I remind my fans that if they're having trouble buying for someone who reads that they "...consider gifting the smouldering ruin of fallen Ossard." And then watch as a small flurry of sales is unleashed throught the system.

I don't normally push my books to buy. Personally I find the spammy stuff annoying. Obviously I will promote the new books, or new format releases, and sometimes even finding something on special somewhere, but other than that there needs to be a reason or theme to a sales communication, not just a buy my book message if it's to have an impact and not be irritating.


----------



## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

Thank you for the terrific ideas posted in this thread. I have a small email list I've built up and it does garner extra sales when a new book comes out. I think it's tougher to keep the momentum going when you're trad. pubbed because of the long wait between books. I use FB and other social media to post updates about upcoming releases/books in progress to stay in touch with my readers, plus posting signing schedules for books already out.


----------



## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

Colin Taber said:


> Many years ago I published a national fantasy and sci-fi magazine which developed a loyal base of regular readers (Australian Realms, which I eventually sold).
> 
> When we brought out other product we knew that 10% of our readers would buy it (direct). We also had a constant 10% who were subscribers (yeah, pretty much the same people). And when we went to market with any new product we could always bank on that 10%, with many of them ordering in advance - and thus paying for a good part of our production costs.
> 
> If you're delivering a consistently solid product you will build a loyal base. You just need to let that 10% know what you'd love to see them do. Many of them will only be too happy to comply. Such a fanbase is your career's foundation.


I remember that mag. Used to get it at Mionotaur books when it was in Bourke St


----------



## mikaeel (Aug 12, 2011)

This time last year I couldn't give away my first book on smashwords for free. It was selling on amazon for .99 they wouldn't let me give it away either. But then in december it sold 600 hundred copies on amazon then in when 2011 rolled aronf the book took off. So I am guessing sales should start to go up in December or January.


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> I remember that mag. Used to get it at Mionotaur books when it was in Bourke St


Hi Herc, it's amazing how often I see this kind of comment. Australian Realms certainly made an impression on its niche.


----------



## Ursula Grey (Feb 20, 2010)

Interesting thread. It's been a little over a month since the original post was published...Have things picked up for those of you who experienced a sudden decline in sales?


----------



## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Ursula Grey said:


> Interesting thread. It's been a little over a month since the original post was published...Have things picked up for those of you who experienced a sudden decline in sales?


Well, my sales have improved a tiny bit in the last week. But at this rate, I'll still be lucky if I sell about half in November what I did in September. And as I don't sell many to start with, that's not a lot.

But, I do have new things to self publish when I finish some current commitments, and I'm optimistic that those new items, combined with sales to the loads of new ereaders gifted at Christmas, will give us all a boost.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Ann Chambers said:


> *Frantically taking notes while baking Nutella cookies*
> I just love the turn this thread has taken. Thanks so much to Modwitch and other more experienced indies for all the great information about FB/websites and other marketing tools! I will soon launch 5 more little titles and am thinking to start a small web presence of some sort.
> This kind of information exchange is IMO one of the best parts of KB.


You lost me after Nutella cookies. Are there such things and where can I get a recipe?


----------



## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Bookmarking this thread for full perusal tomorrow morning.

Over coffee.

And bourbon.

With a sock monkey and a can of Slim Jims.

Crap. I've said too much.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"I have over 250 people signed up for my Priscilla the Great newsletter, but most of those are 12-year-olds with no buying power."_

Sounds like the same demographic JK Rowling started with.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

modwitch said:


> It's d*mn hard to "manipulate" the amazon algorithms - but you can do things that increase your ability to take advantage of them.
> 
> The short version of what I'm doing - and it's very intentionally aimed at benefitting from the algorithms to help me build an audience... I've built an email list big enough to help my books past that initial "visibility" hump. I'm writing very related books with visually related covers, so that when they get visible, lots of my previous readers recognize the covers on "drive by" as they browse amazon (which hopefully increases the chances of them noticing, clicking, and buying). I'm releasing often, so that at least one of my books is taking advantage of the "freshness" bonus and hot new releases lists as often as possible. (And yeah, that's a ton easier to do when writing is your full-time job).
> 
> ...


Very smart. That's the model I've been doing. Building up influencers who are fans that help spread the word. Covers - I agree with you a 110 %. I don't ask for opinions on my covers, because one I heard was that my covers were too similar. Duh, that's the point! You look at an angel series book, and you know it's an angel series book. I've been working on self-publishing since May 2011 and I'm very happy with my results so far with only two books out and two more on the way.


----------



## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

modwitch said:


> This. I'd hate to think people are looking at my 10% number and thinking "well, that's freaky and nobody else can do that". And finding these people and being able to reach out to them regularly? Yeah. Gold.
> 
> Absolutely. That's why I first started out with fan pages . But what seems to have evolved for me is that people who just want to know when the new release is coming sign up for my email list. People who want to talk to me, and learn about my life, and all that, friend me on facebook. These are also the people who write reviews, send me "how's the writing going" emails, get their book club to read my book... it's not a large group, but they're fiercely loyal (and boy, do they keep my butt in a chair). And when I started, that page had seven friends.
> 
> ...


This is a valuable thread~gold and sparkly. I just waded through the whole thing and feel informed and illuminated by what I've read. I had my suspicions about the Algorithms. I launched two novels, one in late April and one in early May. Perhaps, my timing couldn't have been worse between the sunny summer sale and the tweaks. I will have to print this off and correlate what I see with the data (from my spreadsheet and Author Central) etc. Thank you all for your insight. I've been working hard on a third novel so I haven't been keeping up with Kindleboards. Thanks for the insight, encouragement, and dose of reality.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

My husband and I have a theory about the changing algorithims on Amazon. Most of the big six release what they're counting on to be they're big money makers in time for Christmas. We noticed a lot of these books on the bestsellers Kindle lists are these books. We think they are giving "weight" to the fact that publishers have the big print runs in the stores and are temporarily bumping down eBooks from less important books. 
For example your eBook sells 1,000 copies for the month, but your competitor who only sold 250 Kindle books has a print run of 20,000 in the physical bookstores and he sold a 1,000 there. 

Technically, you should be listed higher in the Kindle store, but because its Christmas, and Amazon want s to keep publishers happy too, they bump you down on the list and put them up as if they sold 1,250 in the Kindle store.

Just our four cents worth.


----------



## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Crawling so badly, a slug would be at the finish line before I have even started. 
Sorry, I haven't read the rest of the thread . . . was just expressing myself.


----------



## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Richardcrasta said:


> Crawling so badly, a slug would be at the finish line before I have even started.
> Sorry, I haven't read the rest of the thread . . . was just expressing myself.


Hugs, Richard. My slug is in the same race as yours... and it's having an 'off' day. Here's hoping we both find a burst of speed from somewhere. 

This is a great thread for advice and info though.


----------



## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

This little thread has stayed with me for a few days. I have to say that my sales largely come from Twitter. This is fairly easy for me to track. My readers reach out to me there when they purchase my work and I keep track. It's nothing earth-shattering, but steady and track-able.

I've been giving a lot of homage to Amazon. I do love Author central and all of that. However, I am re-thinking how readers get to my books. I need to do a better job of pointing them to other places to purchase instead of taking the easy way out and sending the link to Amazon at every turn. There's Apple, for example, especially for International e-book purchases. This guy's link gives all the iTunes locations for your e-book by country. Check out his stuff here: http://www.russellphillipsbooks.co.uk/pages/tools.php?AppleISBN=9780983570714&user= True. I might not get the purchase data for months or be able to track it, but giving it all up to Amazon is not a guaranteed strategy either.

This thread has got me thinking about all of that.

Thank you!!


----------



## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> My husband and I have a theory about the changing algorithims on Amazon. Most of the big six release what they're counting on to be they're big money makers in time for Christmas. We noticed a lot of these books on the bestsellers Kindle lists are these books. We think they are giving "weight" to the fact that publishers have the big print runs in the stores and are temporarily bumping down eBooks from less important books.
> For example your eBook sells 1,000 copies for the month, but your competitor who only sold 250 Kindle books has a print run of 20,000 in the physical bookstores and he sold a 1,000 there.
> 
> Technically, you should be listed higher in the Kindle store, but because its Christmas, and Amazon want s to keep publishers happy too, they bump you down on the list and put them up as if they sold 1,250 in the Kindle store.
> ...


Thank you for this. Would Amazon 'weight' things so that some entity with 3,000 ebooks to upload in a big burp over one of the folks here who, at best, comes up with a new book every six months? Oh, say it isn't so.

Okay, I know, some folks are rushing to the keyboard to say that we shouldn't rely on Amazon to sell our books for us. Yes, true. But we shouldn't have to worry about being sidetracked or spun somehow so that our books show up less, or whatever they (might) be doing. I just hope this is not what is happening. But something definitely has changed, as if the winds have changed, or stopped. Have certain books suddenly saturated their market? Have certain writers' readers suddenly decided that that writer with the big house does it better?

Would Amazon forget that it was the Indies that provided all that content they needed when they were launching Kindle? Would Russia sign a non-aggression pact with Germany? Would Amazon begin working placement/search category deals with big publishers that were finally getting in gear and releasing gads of their backlists? Would a hungry polar bear eat an environmentalist who fell off the Greenpeace ship? I can't wait to find out!


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Paul Clayton said:


> Thank you for this. Would Amazon 'weight' things so that some entity with 3,000 ebooks to upload in a big burp over one of the folks here who, at best, comes up with a new book every six months? Oh, say it isn't so.
> 
> Okay, I know, some folks are rushing to the keyboard to say that we shouldn't rely on Amazon to sell our books for us. Yes, true. But we shouldn't have to worry about being sidetracked or spun somehow so that our books show up less, or whatever they (might) be doing. I just hope this is not what is happening. But something definitely has changed, as if the winds have changed, or stopped. Have certain books suddenly saturated their market? Have certain writers' readers suddenly decided that that writer with the big house does it better?
> 
> Would Amazon forget that it was the Indies that provided all that content they needed when they were launching Kindle? Would Russia sign a non-aggression pact with Germany? Would Amazon begin working placement/search category deals with big publishers that were finally getting in gear and releasing gads of their backlists? Would a hungry polar bear eat an environmentalist who fell off the Greenpeace ship? I can't wait to find out!


I know they're doing this. How do I know? I go to the kindle store and see where the ebooks overall rankings and sales are (lower than mine) but even on the kindle page, they'll show the paperback and hardcovers and if you click on those they're better than mine. Ergo they are weighting the scale for overall sales.
Hopefully, this is just a Christmas season adjustment to help the trades sell their tree books (and Amazon probably makes money on shipping too) and things will go back to normal after the holiday, where Kindle books are weighted just on Kindle sales.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I know they're doing this. How do I know? I go to the kindle store and see where the ebooks overall rankings and sales are (lower than mine) but even on the kindle page, they'll show the paperback and hardcovers and if you click on those they're better than mine. Ergo they are weighting the scale for overall sales.


I would absolutely, positively love for you to upload a few screenshots proving this, as well as explaining exactly what you mean. And there's two sales lists: Books, and Kindle Books. The Book ones will add in sales of books and digital combined, while the Kindle is just that, Kindle. Is that all you're saying, or do you mean Amazon has some algorithm like 3.5 digital sales equal 1 print sale?

Oh, and have to freaking laugh my head off at this:



LisaGraceBooks said:


> My husband and I have a theory about the changing algorithims on Amazon. Most of the big six release what they're counting on to be they're big money makers in time for Christmas. We noticed a lot of these books on the bestsellers Kindle lists are these books. We think they are giving "weight" to the fact that publishers have the big print runs in the stores and are temporarily bumping down eBooks from less important books.


Here's a thought. I know it is crazy, but maybe, just maybe, these heavy hitters are the ones receiving a lot of marketing, and have had many books published prior before, and are, ooooh I don't know...actually selling well? Or should I be jumping up and down saying no way is GRR Martin outselling me just because his book is in every bookstore, he has an HBO show, and fans were waiting seven years for it?


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I know they're doing this. How do I know? I go to the kindle store and see where the ebooks overall rankings and sales are (lower than mine) but even on the kindle page, they'll show the paperback and hardcovers and if you click on those they're better than mine. Ergo they are weighting the scale for overall sales.
> Hopefully, this is just a Christmas season adjustment to help the trades sell their tree books (and Amazon probably makes money on shipping too) and things will go back to normal after the holiday, where Kindle books are weighted just on Kindle sales.


Lisa, it just means that you're selling more ebooks than those authors (probably at a much lower price) while they are selling more books overall. Top-selling "books" lists on Amazon are, like David said, books plus ebooks. The kindle list is JUST kindle ebooks. Amazon is not weighting the scale, or at least there is absolutely no evidence of this.


----------



## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I know they're doing this. How do I know? I go to the kindle store and see where the ebooks overall rankings and sales are (lower than mine) but even on the kindle page, they'll show the paperback and hardcovers and if you click on those they're better than mine. Ergo they are weighting the scale for overall sales.
> Hopefully, this is just a Christmas season adjustment to help the trades sell their tree books (and Amazon probably makes money on shipping too) and things will go back to normal after the holiday, where Kindle books are weighted just on Kindle sales.


I will admit to being paranoid, but even I have been followed down a darkened street by bad folks intent on doing harm. Anyway, when little one or two book Indie Publishers end up in bed with six 600-pound gorillas and a 6,666 lb dragon, it is possible that if some or all of them fall in love that we could get squashed in the process. I'm not saying that that's what's happening, mind you. I'm just saying it's possible.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Lisa, it just means that you're selling more ebooks than those authors (probably at a much lower price) while they are selling more books overall. Top-selling "books" lists on Amazon are, like David said, books plus ebooks. The kindle list is JUST kindle ebooks. Amazon is not weighting the scale, or at least there is absolutely no evidence of this.


I already know this. I'm not suggesting they're weighted overall. I gave an example above of how it works. (I'm aware they are selling 100,000's if not millions more than me.) But the kindle rankings are not just Kindle books. They are weighted. We can agree to disagree.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Lisa, it just means that you're selling more ebooks than those authors (probably at a much lower price) while they are selling more books overall. Top-selling "books" lists on Amazon are, like David said, books plus ebooks. The kindle list is JUST kindle ebooks. Amazon is not weighting the scale, or at least there is absolutely no evidence of this.


To clarify what I said there, when you click on a paperback or hardback edition and you see the ranking, that's the ranking for that edition of the book (hardcover, paperback, etc.) out of all physical books. For example, my novel doesn't sell well as a $14.95 paperback so its current ranking on its own paperback page is #753,020. My $3.95 kindle edition is currently around #20,000.

If I find a traditionally published book with a better "books" ranking than mine on its paper edition and a worse "kindle" ranking on its kindle edition, it just means I'm currently selling more ebooks (more or less--I'll ignore recency of sales for this discussion) and that book is selling more physical copies than I am.

There are some "Books" lists on Amazon that combine ebook editions with print editions. But the overall top 100 "Books" list is just paper editions. On the sub-genre "Books" lists you get ebook editions and paper editions on the same lists.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I already know this. I'm not suggesting they're weighted overall. I gave an example above of how it works. (I'm aware they are selling 100,000's if not millions more than me.) But the kindle rankings are not just Kindle books. They are weighted. We can agree to disagree.


The kindle rankings are just kindle books. I'm aware of no evidence that suggets otherwise. We can agree to disagree, but you haven't given any evidence to back up your claim, and it's a _big_ claim.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understood you correctly, your example above is that you have books that show a better "kindle" ranking (that means you're selling more ebooks than they are) with a worse "books" ranking on the paper editions' product pages (that means they're selling more paper books than you are). That _doesn't _prove that the kindle lists are weighted so that books that sell more paper get better placement on the kindle lists.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, so if you could give us one of your books and one other book that you're comparing it with, then we could look at this and see what's up.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> But the kindle rankings are not just Kindle books. They are weighted. We can agree to disagree.


Actually, no. I'll agree that you made a rather significant claim that a company is effectively _lying_ without giving a single shred of evidence or example to support it.

Oh, and Amazon is secretly ruled by aliens from Mars. I just know it. If you think I'm wrong, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Oh, and Amazon is secretly ruled by aliens from Mars.


That explains the hourly updates for sales rank, then. And the delay between sales and their reporting. Sometimes Mars is as much as 20 light-minutes away, one-way - and sometimes it's eclipsed by the sun, and is out of communication with Earth, hence the occasional KDP "outages".

Amazon being run by Martians explains _everything_!


----------



## Millard (Jun 13, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Oh, and Amazon is secretly ruled by aliens from Mars. I just know it. If you think I'm wrong, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


That's why Venusian-themed romance gets buried.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Actually, no. I'll agree that you made a rather significant claim that a company is effectively _lying_ without giving a single shred of evidence or example to support it.


David, don't put words in my mouth. Rankings are subjective. Glass half full, glass half empty. Both are right. Amazon puts books arbitrarily (only through criteria known to them) on lists and off lists. 
Example: I was on Kindle - teen kindle horror (My current ranking in kindle store is around 15K-20K) Look at the current #10 book in the Kindle store now for this category: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_11?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=teen+horror&sprefix=Teen+horror

Ranking #138,000+ Now why is a book that is ranked 138,000 replacing me?


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> David, don't put words in my mouth. Rankings are subjective. Glass half full, glass half empty. Both are right. Amazon puts books arbitrarily (only through criteria known to them) on lists and off lists.
> Example: I was on Kindle - teen kindle horror (My current ranking in kindle store is around 15K-20K) Look at the current #10 book in the Kindle store now for this category: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_11?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=teen+horror&sprefix=Teen+horror
> 
> Ranking #138,000+ Now why is a book that is ranked 138,000 replacing me?


Ah, that's a sort by "relevance," not by "best-selling." That has more to do with keywords and other arcana. For example, if you do a general search on Amazon for "epic fantasy," my free novella comes up as #1. It doesn't mean it's the bestselling epic fantasy book in the kindle store.


Spoiler



he says bitterly


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I think it's rather naive to assume that rankings or any of the lists on Amazon are based strictly on sales. They wouldn't need algorithims then, it would just be a straight shot. They're trying to predict future buying patterns based on past buying patterns. Since this field of study in real time is so new, they're experimenting all the time to refine and maximize sales. How many you have sold in the last hour is not nearly as important as figuring out what the reader is most likely to purchase next.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I think it's rather naive to assume that rankings or any of the lists on Amazon are based strictly on sales. They wouldn't need algorithims then, it would just be a straight shot. They're trying to predict future buying patterns based on past buying patterns. Since this field of study in real time is so new, they're experimenting all the time to refine and maximize sales. How many you have sold in the last hour is not nearly as important as figuring out what the reader is most likely to purchase next.


But if you go to any bestselling kindle list (such as a bestselling genre category), the books _are_ ranked according to Amazon's sales ranking. The formula itself is arcane and it heavily weights recent sales while also supporting books that have sold well over time. But that's only based on kindle sales. There's no good evidence to the contrary that says physical books factor into the weighting on the specific kindle bestseller lists.

This stuff is definitely confusing.


----------



## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

It's also a "search" not a "list" ... 

Start with Kindle > eBooks > Fiction and keep drilling. You'll find the lists. I've yet to see a best-seller list that wasn't in sales rank order. Not that I've looked much beyond my own...

Now, how they calculate the sales rank ... that's a bit of a black box, but it looks very much like a smoothed average of sales over time. At one point the smoothing window was quite long (a few weeks), for awhile earlier in the year it was rather short (a few days), and I think it's probably something in the order of 7 to 10 days at the moment. Just a guess based on watching my own sales trend lines. It's difficult to predict because it's a rank order based on the activity of books I'm not tracking, but it seems generally pretty reliable. 

So, yeah, color me naive, but Occam's Razor holds for me.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Ah, that's a sort by "relevance," not by "bestselling." That has more to do with keywords and other arcana. For example, if you do a general search on Amazon for "epic fantasy," my free novella comes up as #1. It doesn't mean it's the bestselling epic fantasy book in the kindle store.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


If you go back to my original post, I was talking about the algorithms. I only used the words "best selling" to refer to the books that are out in print and the book stores , not to the lists.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> David, don't put words in my mouth. Rankings are subjective. Glass half full, glass half empty. Both are right. Amazon puts books arbitrarily (only through criteria known to them) on lists and off lists.
> Example: I was on Kindle - teen kindle horror (My current ranking in kindle store is around 15K-20K) Look at the current #10 book in the Kindle store now for this category: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_11?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=teen+horror&sprefix=Teen+horror
> 
> Ranking #138,000+ Now why is a book that is ranked 138,000 replacing me?


You've got to be kidding me.

You went to Kindle store and typed in "Teen Horror" into their search engine, and you think *that* is a seller list?



> But the kindle rankings are not just Kindle books. They are weighted. We can agree to disagree.


If you're going to use the word rankings, then everyone in the world will assume you mean the paid rankings aka their best seller lists. And go to that #10 book you mentioned. See it on any sort of bestseller list? Anything at all? It's not in any category at all, because its ranking isn't high enough. How in the world does this, in any way, imply Amazon is weighting book sales to modify the kindle sales rankings?

Now if you wanted, you could make the claim Amazon favors traditional publishers over indie when it comes to search terms, except that list for teen horror appears to have far more indies than traditional authors on it.



LisaGraceBooks said:


> I think it's rather naive to assume that rankings or any of the lists on Amazon are based strictly on sales. They wouldn't need algorithims then, it would just be a straight shot. They're trying to predict future buying patterns based on past buying patterns. Since this field of study in real time is so new, they're experimenting all the time to refine and maximize sales. How many you have sold in the last hour is not nearly as important as figuring out what the reader is most likely to purchase next.


Yes, they would need algorithms to calculate sales ranking, because it isn't so simple as "Well, book X sold the most copies this past hour, so it is the number one book in the store." Amazon appears to have a weighted system so that current sales count more toward a total sales rank, but older sales do matter. Sort of like today gets 100% counted, yesterday 50% counted, previous three days 25%, etc.

And you're still confusing *paid sales rankings* with lists and recommendations. Again, if you want to say Amazon gives more advertising, or recommendations, or email blasts for non-indies, then say that. However, you didn't say that. You didn't argue that. This is what you argued:



LisaGraceBooks said:


> For example your eBook sells 1,000 copies for the month, but your competitor who only sold 250 Kindle books has a print run of 20,000 in the physical bookstores and he sold a 1,000 there.
> 
> Technically, you should be listed higher in the Kindle store, but because its Christmas, and Amazon want s to keep publishers happy too, they bump you down on the list and put them up as if they sold 1,250 in the Kindle store.


That's a paid ranking comparison. You're saying a ranking, based solely on paid sales, isn't as high as someone else because of a print run. And you said it again:



LisaGraceBooks said:


> But the kindle rankings are not just Kindle books. They are weighted. We can agree to disagree.


and again:



LisaGraceBooks said:


> I know they're doing this. How do I know? I go to the kindle store and see where the ebooks overall rankings and sales are (lower than mine) but even on the kindle page, they'll show the paperback and hardcovers and if you click on those they're better than mine. Ergo they are weighting the scale for overall sales.
> Hopefully, this is just a Christmas season adjustment to help the trades sell their tree books (and Amazon probably makes money on shipping too) and things will go back to normal after the holiday, where Kindle books are weighted just on Kindle sales.


Though the above is still hopelessly confusing, but you still make the claim about Kindle books weighted on more than just sales.

And now you're saying this?



LisaGraceBooks said:


> If you go back to my original post, I was talking about the algorithms. I only used the words "best selling" to refer to the books that are out in print and the book stores , not to the lists.


Are we reading the same thread?


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> If you go back to my original post, I was talking about the algorithms. I only used the words "best selling" to refer to the books that are out in print and the book stores , not to the lists.


But I see no evidence that books that are selling well in bookstores automatically get favorable weighting in the kindle bestseller lists. Of course, if books are selling in print then they're probably going to be selling decently in ebook, too. But we don't have their hard sales numbers, so we definitely can't draw any conclusions from that sort of thing. Occam's Razor does lead us in the direction that books selling well in the kindle store have good rankings in the kindle store, period.


----------



## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> If you go back to my original post, I was talking about the algorithms. I only used the words "best selling" to refer to the books that are out in print and the book stores , not to the lists.


yes, but then you gave the example of a search string result sorted by relevance on metadata that I can't find anywhere in either of your books. I even went in and voted up "teen" and added "horror" as keywords but that's probably not helping the visibility as much as the fact that the books in that search result seem to be actually on "children's ebooks" lists.

I'm with Moses here and not really understanding what your examples are showing.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

David -  I'm not confusing anything. This discussion was about the algorithms and how Amazon figures them. I was on a few "blue lists" (one for kindle>teen>horror) and I may have posted the wrong link here. 

I'm not talking about bestseller lists as I clarified above. I"M TALKING ABOUT THE ALGORITHMS THEY USE AND CHANGE TO DETERMINE THEIR BLUE LISTS AND RANKINGS ON THOSE. I hope you heard me now that you've forced me to scream. They are going to switch those around because they don't care what you or I have sold. They only care about how it can affect what the buyer will buy next. Remember when the whole mystery thriller blue list disappeared? I'm talking about this kind of things.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Can you link to an example of a "blue list"?


----------



## Sandra Edwards (May 10, 2010)

I've read through this entire thread and I'm still waiting for the proof of Amazon's dirty dealings. So far, all I see is someone's opinion...not even any real facts to support that opinion either. 

Just sayin'....


----------



## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

...


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

goof


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

George Berger said:


> That explains the hourly updates for sales rank, then. And the delay between sales and their reporting. Sometimes Mars is as much as 20 light-minutes away, one-way - and sometimes it's eclipsed by the sun, and is out of communication with Earth, hence the occasional KDP "outages".
> 
> Amazon being run by Martians explains everything!





Millard said:


> That's why Venusian-themed romance gets buried.


You two win the thread.










B.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Sandra Edwards said:


> I've read through this entire thread and I'm still waiting for the proof of Amazon's dirty dealings. So far, all I see is someone's opinion...not even any real facts to support that opinion either.
> 
> Just sayin'....


Nobody has said there are dirty dealings, nobody has said there are conspiracies theories...How do you all come to these conclusions from a supposition that the blue lists are switched around as Amazon pleases, eBooks are switched from one to another as they please, and that the algorithms are based on more data than just sales?


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

smreine said:


> Do you think they've made another update to the algos? It seems like it used to take a sale or two a day to keep books around #20,000, but now that seems to only net #40-50,000 rankings.
> 
> (I am not in the Amazon conspiracy theory club, by the by. I think they do whatever makes money, and obviously indie books do make money. They aren't out to get us.)


It might be due to a higher volume of sales right now (holidays, new kindles, Black Friday) and more competition (more books with decent rankings).


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

smreine said:


> Do you think they've made another update to the algos? It seems like it used to take a sale or two a day to keep books around #20,000, but now that seems to only net #40-50,000 rankings.
> 
> (I am not in the Amazon conspiracy theory club, by the by. I think they do whatever makes money, and obviously indie books do make money. They aren't out to get us.)


It's also possible....oh wtf Moses, I was *just* about to say that.

*Defers to Moses's explanation*


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> It might be due to a higher volume of sales right now (holidays, new kindles, Black Friday) and more competition (more books with decent rankings).


Yep. And it's especially painful in the printed-book side of things. People are buying a _lot_ of physical books right now, it seems...


----------



## HeidiHall (Sep 5, 2010)

I'm just throwing this out there (and maybe it's been mentioned, but I haven't gotten through the whole thread), but could the rankings/lists Lisa is talking about involve books sold _outside _Amazon for Trad Pub? Where we have to list different ISBN #s for each version (Kindle, Nook, paper, etc.), does TP have to do the same? The cumulation of sales from several channels could push them higher if this is the case (although I have no idea how AMZ would gather the data from competitors). Where's Debora? I'm naive when it comes to this stuff and defer to those who have real knowledge of the backend algo minutia.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Here is David Dalglish's blue list for Sliver of Redemption:

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,748 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store) 
#70 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Fiction > Fantasy > Epic 

Here is one for a book that hasn't sold as much, but is being released by Hatchett Group _Rise of Empire_ By Michael Sullivan:

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,819 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store) 
#12 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Fiction > Fantasy > Historical 
#27 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Historical 
#73 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Fiction > Fantasy > Epic 

My point being, what if they took David off Epic and he noticed books on the epic were selling less than his. This is what happened to me.

I would have used my books as an example but like I said Amazon took me off the blue lists I was on for my genres and put books that aren't selling as many, but have presence in the bookstores. D. D.'s books could be on more than one blue list, but they have a habit of letting s-p's only be on one or max 2.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Here is David Dalglish's blue list for Sliver of Redemption:
> 
> Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,748 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
> #70 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Fiction > Fantasy > Epic
> ...


Look lower on each product page for the sub-heading title "Look for Similar Items by Category". That is where Amazon listed the categories you selected when you published your book. You can only compete in those categories (unless Amazon adds you to another category manually-quite rare).

Sliver of Redemption's categories are:

* Books > Literature & Fiction
* Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Epic
* Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Fantasy > Epic

Rise of Empire's categories are:

* Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Action & Adventure
* Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Epic
* Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Historical

Thus, these two books are only competing head-to-head in on category: Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Epic

In that category, David's better sales rank (3,748 vs. 3,819) corresponds to his better "blue list" rank (#70 vs. #73).

All is well.

B.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Look lower on each product page for the sub-heading title "Look for Similar Items by Category". That is where Amazon listed the categories you selected when you published your book. You can only compete in those categories (unless Amazon adds you to another category manuallyquite rare).
> 
> All is well.
> 
> B.


You're missing the point. If David were taken off Epic and lesser performing books were on the list.
My books were taken off the ones I signed for. In another thread we had going I posted the funny ones they moved me to a couple of weeks ago. Bibles>literary fiction>science fantasy. was one of the weird ones. I'm glad it hasn't happened to you.
I'll have them correct it. This isn't the first time it's happened.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Your "blue lists" are the best seller lists you said you weren't talking about. They are purely sales based. Sometimes, AZ puts you on strange lists. This is usually due to keywords and funny interpretations of them.

Can you actually show a book ranked lower showing up higher than it should? I *think* that's what you're getting it, but the target of this thread has been somewhat changeable.


----------



## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> You're missing the point. If David were taken off Epic and lesser performing books were on the list.
> My books were taken off the ones I signed for. In another thread we had going I posted the funny ones they moved me to a couple of weeks ago. Bibles>literary fiction>science fantasy. was one of the weird ones. I'm glad it hasn't happened to you.
> I'll have them correct it. This isn't the first time it's happened.


Yeah, it just sounds like a glitch that can easily be corrected.


----------



## Sandra Edwards (May 10, 2010)

Everybody who's been around here for more than five minutes knows the algorithms are based on more than just sales data. But that doesn't mean that Amazon's gaming the system and has it in for the Indies. Geez....

Sandy
*who is done with this thread. Some things are just pointless*


----------



## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

The "blue lists" are based on the categories you chose in KDP. The top 100 are displayed and ranked within that category, purely based on overall sales rank.

Note, however, that your product page itself only displays (at most) three "blue lists". A while back, there was room for only two "blue lists" on product pages. You could still _belong_ to more, but your book's page won't show it. You'd have to find the list yourself, scroll down, and look for your book. Could that be what happened to you?

Could it be that you were still on the list, but your product page wasn't showing it? That has happened to me before.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I just popped back on my "weird" list Amazon moved me to:
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #15,662 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store) 
#87 in Books > Christian Books & Bibles > Literature & Fiction > Science Fiction & Fantasy 
#91 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Fiction > Genre Fiction > Horror > Occult 

Before this I was on: Kindle Store>Kindle eBooks>Teen>Horror
Then they took me off and moved me to the "weird" one while leaving worse performing books on the teen horror


----------



## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

And no, there is definitely no conspiracy against indie authors.  Amazon doesn't care if you're indie or trad; they care if you make money.


----------



## theraven (Dec 30, 2009)

Would Amazon move a book from a category if they felt it was placed in the wrong one? Even if the 'wrong' category was the one preferred by the author. A review mentioned a strong Christian theme and message and there are six agrees with the tag Christian but only 1 for horror. Maybe someone at Amazon moved the book from Teen Horror to Christian Science Fiction and Fantasy because it was believed the book was in the wrong category and they wanted to fix what they thought was an error and thought the new category was a better fit for the book.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

theraven said:


> Would Amazon move a book from a category if they felt it was placed in the wrong one? Even if the 'wrong' category was the one preferred by the author. A review mentioned a strong Christian theme and message and there are six agrees with the tag Christian but only 1 for horror. Maybe someone at Amazon moved the book from Teen Horror to Christian Science Fiction and Fantasy because it was believed the book was in the wrong category and they wanted to fix what they thought was an error and thought the new category was a better fit for the book.


Amazon would remove a book if it were a seriously bad fit like erotica in YA. However, Lisa's book wasn't removed from the category/list. The sales fell below the bottom rung of the top 100, so it's not displayed on the bestseller ("blue") list.


----------



## theraven (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks, Monique.  I've been reading a lot about rankings, algorithms, and such the last few days and am finding myself more confused. It's not easy trying to figure all of this out.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

The good news is that Amazon gives readers oodles of ways to find books. The bad news is that be confusing when you're trying to measure your success.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks Modwitch- That makes sense. I was as high as the 5k rank so that explains it.


----------



## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes, thanks all, for I too have been confused by the ranks and the way things are displayed and listed.  Ah, life is good.


----------



## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

Colin Taber said:


> I think you might be underestimating the power of nagging children. I'd be looking to try and convert those "no buys" into kids with your books on their christmas lists. You just need to look for the opportunities and then plan for them, ie. A newsletter in mid November that perhaps promotes a Christmas release, but also suggests getting any series books a fan has missed for Christmas.
> 
> I do a Facebook fan page post early December each year where, for example, I remind my fans that if they're having trouble buying for someone who reads that they "...consider gifting the smouldering ruin of fallen Ossard." And then watch as a small flurry of sales is unleashed throught the system.
> 
> I don't normally push my books to buy. Personally I find the spammy stuff annoying. Obviously I will promote the new books, or new format releases, and sometimes even finding something on special somewhere, but other than that there needs to be a reason or theme to a sales communication, not just a buy my book message if it's to have an impact and not be irritating.


Good idea. I've also started a newsletter for my Leslie DuBois books. Usually, I only send a newsletter if I have a new release or contest.


----------

