# Women and Fantasy



## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

I wrote this a while back and a recent question caused me to post it on my new blog. My old one was deleted...had to start from scratch.

http://briandandersonbooks.blogspot.com/2014/03/women-and-fantasy.html


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

You do realize that for most main genres (including action/adventure and thrillers) over 50% of all readership is female. 

I read fantasy when I was a kid right on up through to now even, long before Hunger Games (which is SF, not fantasy). Women were writing it decades ago as well.


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## Cat Amesbury (Jan 29, 2014)

It's always wonderful to get more representation of people from all different backgrounds and circumstances in writing. Especially, as you point out, because we love imagining ourselves inside the book and inside the story. I'm glad that you are taking the time to write sympathetic and relatable female characters.

However; there have always been large numbers of female fans of fantasy. Writers like Robin McKinley, Terry Pratchett, Tamora Pierce etc. wrote well-rounded female characters that appealed to a wide audience of readers. In fact, the young girl who loves fantasy and fairy tales has been gently prodded in popular culture since at least Enid Blyton and more obviously in movies like _Labyrinth_.

I think one of the best aspects of the Internet is that suddenly whole groups of people who love stories (like women fantasy lovers) have been able to connect with other lovers of similar stories and recognize 'Hey! I'm not all alone here!' Their voices are amplified rather than being dismissed as outliers.

If that means we get more stories with characters of all kinds of backgrounds who are illustrated as real human beings rather than cardboard cut-outs, I'm all for that change.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Female writers have been writing sf/f for a long time and have had fans of all genders following them for a long time. Here's a thread listing a few:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,149540.0.html


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

Doomed Muse said:


> You do realize that for most main genres (including action/adventure and thrillers) over 50% of all readership is female.
> 
> I read fantasy when I was a kid right on up through to now even, long before Hunger Games (which is SF, not fantasy). Women were writing it decades ago as well.


Yes I do realize that 50% of readers are female. In fact I would say it's higher. And though women have indeed been writing it for years, fantasy was a very male dominated genre for a long time. The piece was about a positive demographic shift...that's all. Oh, and amazon lists it in both SF and Fantasy.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

BrianDAnderson said:


> and amazon lists it in both SF and Fantasy.


Amazon lists a lot of things in the wrong categories. So do publishers. So do authors.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

In the days of Conan, MAYBE.  Not by 1990, in terms of readership.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

vmblack said:


> In the days of Conan, MAYBE. Not by 1990, in terms of readership.


The days of Conan is when I grew up . In fact, it was when I read Robert Jordan for the first time. Being a D&D nerd, I would have given anything if I could have found girls into fantasy. OH MY GOD! I would have danced for joy!


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

BrianDAnderson said:


> The days of Conan is when I grew up . In fact, it was when I read Robert Jordan for the first time. Being a D&D nerd, I would have given anything if I could have found girls into fantasy. OH MY GOD! I would have danced for joy!


The larger issue is the disconnect between fantasy FICTION and fantasy ART. Fantasy has a long and storied history of strong female writers. But for much of the modern era, fantasy has been actively alienating women with chainmail bikinis and male-gaze depictions of women. D&D for the longest time was the worst offender. Ye gods, even now WoTC can't depict a female creature without a sexy outfit and boobs...even if it is a reptile!


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The larger issue is the disconnect between fantasy FICTION and fantasy ART. Fantasy has a long and storied history of strong female writers. But for much of the modern era, fantasy has been actively alienating women with chainmail bikinis and male-gaze depictions of women. D&D for the longest time was the worst offender. Ye gods, even now WoTC can't depict a female creature without a sexy outfit and boobs...even if it is a reptile!


I completely agree. When I was looking for artwork for my first book I considered an elf woman. I couldn't find a single piece where she was fully clothed, or even in armor.


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

BrianDAnderson said:


> I completely agree. When I was looking for artwork for my first book I considered an elf woman. I couldn't find a single piece where she was fully clothed, or even in armor.


And even then, armour is apparently subjective...


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## Howietzer (Apr 18, 2012)

Since we're on the female armor in art thing, I'd like to point out that not all poses are as impossible as they may seem... just sayin'.


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

*Dons bikini armor, arches her back, and does the splits.* What do you mean? Do other women not prepare for battle like this?


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## Howietzer (Apr 18, 2012)

Vivienne Mathews said:


> *Dons bikini armor, arches her back, and does the splits.* What do you mean? Do other women not prepare for battle like this?


lol, indeed. Although, people who can't arch their back and do the splits probably shouldn't get into a fight with people who can.


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

StevenCampbell said:


> I'm not trying to be poopy, but Fantasy and Sci-Fi have been dominated by male readers for at least 50 years. One of the main feeders to those genres was comic books and in my life I think I had only seen several girls/women in a comic shop.


As the former assistant manager of a comic book store, I feel a responsibility to counter this. Our customer base was probably 40% female. Very close to half and half. Magdalena, Witchblade, Fathom, Tomb Raider, Wonder Woman, and the short-lived Aria were all purchased primarily by women -- women who were careful to come in at particular times of day to avoid the male crowds so they could feel free to shop without being harassed. Many of them told me that, despite being avid fans of this or that, they'd ONLY come in when I was working because they didn't feel safe otherwise. Many would send their significant others in to fetch their purchases because they were tired of being openly gawped.

The same can be said of gaming. The idea that's it's a boys-only club is perception, not reality. I shop for games exclusively online, because going into the local GameStop means one of two things: either they ignore me entirely and try to sell things to my husband who isn't interested, or they condescendingly point me in the direction of the latest family Wii exercise game. "B*&%^, I'm here to preorder Dark Souls 2, not to work off my cellulite!"

We're right here. Always have been. Buying, gaming, fangirling. The upsetting attitude around these things is what keeps us at arm's length.


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

Howietzer said:


> lol, indeed. Although, people who can't arch their back and do the splits probably shouldn't get into a fight with people who can.


*Giggle* Splits or no, I'd still be the one hiding in a cave and waiting for it all to blow over. I ain't letting that dragon fire anywhere near my exposed midriff! What if it caught my long, billowy hair?! The horror!


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

StevenCampbell said:


> I'm off right now to a Games Workshop hobby store to buy a new book. In 25 years I've seen 2 women in such a store and literally _countless smelly guys_.


Which is why the women aren't there.

Several years ago, Home Depot decided to look for ways to expand their business. After intensive customer surveys, they came across an intriguing piece of information. While men were the ones who generally came in the store to BUY the stuff, the wives were the ones who were initiating the project. Home Depot decided that if they could get WOMEN to come into the store with their husbands, they could increase their business.

So they did the unthinkable: they asked women what they looked for in a store. The answers? Wider aisles (because they didn't want to be cramped next to smelly, strange men). Better lighting (because being in cramped, dark aisles with strange men is intimidating). More displays and help with design ideas.

And Home Depot listened. They widened their aisles. They increased store lighting. They set up DIY workshops and hired more people to offer advice on how to do the projects. The result? A 40% increase in business the FIRST YEAR.

Home Depot is a textbook example of how a "male" industry can attract female customers if it decides they actually want them.

Which brings me back to Games Workshop and the average hobby shop. They are cramped. Poorly lit. Have minimal staff. Often poorly organized. The reason why women gamers don't go into hobby shops is not that women don't game. It is that they don't feel SAFE entering the stores because of the way they are designed like some guy's basement.

And insofar as there being no women in gaming, I have no idea what planet YOU live in. But the guys at Drivethrurpg are doing a special International Woman's Day promotion on the 8th where they are going to be featuring products by women game designers. I'm a female game designer that gets invited to cons to sit on panels. And when I go to those cons, I see as many women as I do men.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> I'm not trying to be poopy, but Fantasy and Sci-Fi have been dominated by male readers for at least 50 years.


Oh, bollocks and poppycock.

*whispers*

Twilight
Hunger Games

A subsection of SFF, certainly, but all of it? BS, and please stop marginalising everything that women like.

Oh, but those two books are not REAL SF/F

*rolls eyes*

This is the way women's fiction gets excluded. If Twilight (Freaking vampires) and Hunger Games (dystopian) are not real SFF, then what is?


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Home Depot is a textbook example of how a "male" industry can attract female customers if it decides they actually want them.
> 
> Which brings me back to Games Workshop and the average hobby shop. They are cramped. Poorly lit. Have minimal staff. Often poorly organized. The reason why women gamers don't go into hobby shops is not that women don't game. It is that they don't feel SAFE entering the stores because of the way they are designed like some guy's basement.


Hear, hear!


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Vivienne Mathews said:


> Hear, hear!


And another hear, hear to that. As someone who has been gaming since the tender age of 4 (I'm at the tail end of my family), I am extremely uncomfortable going into comic book shops and gaming stores because I do not feel safe.


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## Howietzer (Apr 18, 2012)

*smells armpit* uh... I'll be back in a minute.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Jumping over from the thread that prompted Brian to post his blog, I liked your post very much Brian, but I also disagree a little about women and fantasy readership. At least since the 1980s. I think what probably confuses the issue is the many different subsets of fantasy. I think you're right that a certain type of epic or traditional fantasy was and perhaps is very male dominated - I never could get into Michael Moorcock for example. But then you have writers like Anne MacAffrey (not sure I spelled that right!), Andre Norton, Tanith Lee, Robert Jordan, David Eddings, Ursula LeGuin, etc.......a lot of these books were really female-centric or had lots of strong female characters and I knew tons of girls who were reading them.

And comics! I've spent tons of time in comic book stores! Before we start complaining too much about the anatomy of women in fantasy, take a look at the pecs and 'throbbing mounds' of some of the men in comic books too     !

But I think that what's interesting is just how dominated by female readership YA fantasy has become due to Twilight, Hunger Games etc...... And of course, in the other thread I mentioned that I also think that might be waning in favor of Twenty Shades of Grey Lite -otherwise known as NA   . (It's a joke NA writers! Don't jump all over me   )

Of course we could throw a cat among the pigeons and start a discussion about the misogyny recently displayed online by the old guard of Science Fiction authors.......


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

Courtney Milan said:


> And another hear, hear to that. As someone who has been gaming since the tender age of 4 (I'm at the tail end of my family), I am extremely uncomfortable going into comic book shops and gaming stores because I do not feel safe.


I don't like it because it makes me feel old.


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## Lizbooks (Mar 15, 2013)

Vivienne Mathews said:


> As the former assistant manager of a comic book store, I feel a responsibility to counter this. Our customer base was probably 40% female. Very close to half and half. Magdalena, Witchblade, Fathom, Tomb Raider, Wonder Woman, and the short-lived Aria were all purchased primarily by women -- women who were careful to come in at particular times of day to avoid the male crowds so they could feel free to shop without being harassed. Many of them told me that, despite being avid fans of this or that, they'd ONLY come in when I was working because they didn't feel safe otherwise. Many would send their significant others in to fetch their purchases because they were tired of being openly gawped.
> 
> The same can be said of gaming. The idea that's it's a boys-only club is perception, not reality. I shop for games exclusively online, because going into the local GameStop means one of two things: either they ignore me entirely and try to sell things to my husband who isn't interested, or they condescendingly point me in the direction of the latest family Wii exercise game. "B*&%^, I'm here to preorder Dark Souls 2, not to work off my cellulite!"
> 
> We're right here. Always have been. Buying, gaming, fangirling. The upsetting attitude around these things is what keeps us at arm's length.


This is my experience. I quit going into comic stores because when I could get service, I would be ogled or talked down to. The only time I got decent service was when I went in with my boyfriend--and even then, the clerk only spoke directly to my boyfriend.

It isn't that women are just now getting involved in the fantasy and science fiction genres; it's that men are just starting to notice we've been here all along.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

Heather Lori Harding said:


> Jumping over from the thread that prompted Brian to post his blog, I liked your post very much Brian, but I also disagree a little about women and fantasy readership. At least since the 1980s. I think what probably confuses the issue is the many different subsets of fantasy. I think you're right that a certain type of epic or traditional fantasy was and perhaps is very male dominated - I never could get into Michael Moorcock for example. But then you have writers like Anne MacAffrey (not sure I spelled that right!), Andre Norton, Tanith Lee, Robert Jordan, David Eddings, Ursula LeGuin, etc.......a lot of these books were really female-centric or had lots of strong female characters and I knew tons of girls who were reading them.
> 
> And comics! I've spent tons of time in comic book stores! Before we start complaining too much about the anatomy of women in fantasy, take a look at the pecs and 'throbbing mounds' of some of the men in comic books too   !
> 
> ...


I love Anne McCaffery. I was a musician and loved that she use one as the protagonist. I brought my comics from the drugstore (and most of my books for that matter) so my experience is limited.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Well I have to say that the young men (and the co owner woman of one) of my local comic book stores have always been perfectly lovely to me! Just had to speak up for them!


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2014)

Lizbooks said:


> T
> 
> It isn't that women are just now getting involved in the fantasy and science fiction genres; it's that men are just starting to notice we've been here all along.


You may be right. We can be an oblivious group. But perhaps they're more open about it. Young girls want to be cool just as much as boys. Fantasy is considered far cooler than it used to be. Whatever the case, I'm thrilled about it. Without my female readers, I'd still be working a day job.


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

Heather Lori Harding said:


> Well I have to say that the young men (and the co owner woman of one) of my local comic book stores have always been perfectly lovely to me! Just had to speak up for them!


Oh yeah, I certainly didn't mean to disparage the workers or general patrons of comic stores. The vast majority of them are fantastic people. Sadly, there are those few who ruin it for everyone else by acting like chumps.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

On the epic fantasy genre, for a while, the local author stable of Harper Collins Australia (the dominant SFF publisher in Australia) was 100% female. Not. A. Single. Man. In. Sight. I just tried to find a nice web page that illustrates this, but man, those publisher web pages suck big balls when all you want is a nice overview of their books. So I gave up. Too busy writing my next epic fantasy.

Anyway, I've even changed my sig line because I got annoyed with male assumptions that they dominate the genre. GRRRR.


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## geekgrrl (Oct 14, 2013)

I've just gonna leave these here.









Comic Book Readers - Orkin 1947

and









"Girl reading comic book in newsstand" by Teenie Harris (c. 1940-1945) © 2006 Carnegie Museum of Art, Pittsburgh


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

I know more female professional, full-time comics artists and writers than male.

That doesn't mean that MOST are female.  It just means I hang out with girl geeks more than guy geeks.


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## Alessandra Kelley (Feb 22, 2011)

It was women fans who got "Star Trek" rebooted.

Fantasy and sci-fi and their fandoms have had women right from the start.  The first Chicago World Science Fiction Convention was run by a woman, Julian May, in 1952.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

StevenCampbell said:


> I'm not trying to be poopy, but Fantasy and Sci-Fi have been dominated by male readers for at least 50 years. One of the main feeders to those genres was comic books and in my life I think I had only seen several girls/women in a comic shop. Of course, comics aren't nearly as important as they were and the demographics have changed for comics. But every imprint and comics publisher that ever tried to be comics for girls, failed as far as I know--or at the very least had miniscule circulation compared to the Pow Bang boy comics. In the 80s there were like 3 girls/women for every hundred boys/men at conventions. The body odor quotient has always been exceptionally high.


Want to see my collection of horror comics and my childhood collection of Archie, Hot Stuff and Casper?


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Circa 1981, three junior high school students went to their Algebra teacher to see if he would sign on as the faculty advisor for the first D&D club in a small Michigan school district. At that time, D&D was a box set that consisted of a couple of stapled pamphlets, dice with plastic so cheap it flaked right off and a crayon for coloring in the numbers in the dice.

The three student founders of the club were named Kary, Beth and Karla.

I've been reading fantasy since about the 4th grade when I discovered The Hobbit. I discovered Anne McCaffrey a year or two later when my mother (also female) taught Dragonsong as required reading in her 9th grade English class and I snitched the book to read at night under the covers with a flashlight. I also read Ursula LeGuin, Patricia McKillip, Tiptree, Roger Zelazny, Piers Anthony, Frank Herbert, Elizabeth Scarborough, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Andre Norton, Modesitt and many others. The premier cover artists of the time were Rowena, Darrel K. Sweet and Michael Whelan. 

I bought my comic books from the drugstore.

My first ever crushes were on Spock and Speed Racer. I think I was about five at the time.  I liked Astro Boy, too, but I considered him too young for me.

We've been here all along. Yes, even in epic fantasy.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Vivienne Mathews said:


> I shop for games exclusively online, because going into the local GameStop means one of two things: either they ignore me entirely and try to sell things to my husband who isn't interested, or they condescendingly point me in the direction of the latest family Wii exercise game. "B*&%^, I'm here to preorder Dark Souls 2, not to work off my cellulite!"


Ha, so much this!

There's only so much cr*p one person can take before finding greener pastures (ie. online shopping).

I don't know about everyone else, but I got my fantasy-fix at the library when growing up, where I only ever saw non-adult males hanging around the cartoons.


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## ElaStein (Feb 8, 2014)

I love fantasy... have been reading it a long, long time, and there were always plenty of female fantasy writers to pick from, from Mists of Avalon to Anne Rice, to even further back to kid books that had a boy and girl friends as protagonists.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I used to play Star Trek during recess at school. I was McCoy. 

I stopped going to my local comic book shop because there was always one employee was seriously creeping. Following me around, space-invading, generally making me feel icky and uncomfortable.


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

skwerlgrrl said:


> I've just gonna leave these here.
> [...]
> Comic Book Readers - Orkin 1947
> 
> ...


Those photos are great.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

KaryE said:


> My first ever crushes were on Spock and Speed Racer. I think I was about five at the time. I liked Astro Boy, too, but I considered him too young for me.


Wesley Crusher. I was 7.

My first adult novel was Dragonriders of Pern. I had a huge collection of doorstop-sized epic fantasy. I discovered Mercedes Lackey in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Sword and Sorceress anthologies, which I read until the covers fell off. I even read Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance. (I was shocked to find out that Tracy Hickman was a man.) Tanith Lee, Ursula LeGuin, Andre Norton, Elizabeth Moon, Bujold, Yolen, and Susan Cooper. Ah-MAZ-ing.

I also play the Baldur's Gate series, Elder Scrolls, Blizzard's games, etc.

And 80% of the rpg player I knew were girls.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

SM Reine said:


> I'd like to point out that many female readers also read comic books that are considered to be intended for male consumption. Yup, including Wolverine and Batman.


Wait. Guys buy Wolverine?  Though I have to say...THAT'S his backstory? Seriously? SERIOUSLY? Thanks, Marvel.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

OT - Please, Marvel, make that Doctor Strange movie. He's hot.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

StevenCampbell said:


> Stole this from reddit.


Tis true, but I think most of us know the difference between being hit on and being creeped on.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

BTW, a friend of mine pitched a story I wanted to write and she wanted to draw to Marvel about a teenage Charles Xavier with the main character actually being a slightly younger mutant girl.  Was going to get picked up until a big gun came in with a Charles Xavier backstory idea and I got bumped.  Boo.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

When I was in a critique group a few years ago one person mentioned that there were no women in my story.  She was right.  Even minor characters were all men.

So when I wrote my latest fantasy book I tried to include more women, and even had a female main character.  Still, I do have few women characters in my novels.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

StevenCampbell said:


> No way. Again, I'll take the pepsi challenge on this. I'm not an assistant manager but I live near some of the most popular comic shops on the west coast.


Living near a few comic shops doesn't give you more experience in the real world of gaming than me, Steven. I've been a guest at Origins and I-Con and a dozen small conventions. You are looking at your tiny corner of the world and making blanket statements about the entire industry. *I WORK IN THE INDUSTRY*. Sorry if you are terrified of girl-cooties getting all over "your" hobby, but women make up a huge portion of the gaming community. There are far more of us than the two you saw in your local store. I think the fact that you don't see women in the stores you frequent says more about the stores you frequent than women in gaming.

I mean, have you not noticed who the Artist Guest of Honor is for the upcoming Gen-Con? I don't know what is going on in your tiny corner of the universe, but have you never browsed some of the events on Youtube for ComicCon or Gen-Con or Horrorfind or any of the conventions for horror, sci-fi, fantasy, and gaming? Amazingly, you will see hundreds of women. HUNDREDS, STEVEN! In ONE PLACE! Celebrating comics and gaming! Running games at tables.

And I have no idea where you are even going with that rambling point about Wonder Woman. Claiming there are no female comic heroes and therefore there are no women who read comics is like saying there are no black cops on TV, therefore black people don't watch TV. The inability of the comic book industry to create a major female comic book hero does not mean that women don't read comics.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

Where were all of you ladies when I was a kid?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

BrianDAnderson said:


> Where were all of you ladies when I was a kid?


Hiding from Steven, apparently.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

All the female cosplayers are just attention-seekers, too, not real fans.  Because nothing says "not a fan" like spending dozens or hundreds of hours making a work of art.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Just because you guys haven't seen us doesn't mean we haven't been there all along. I think the guys that run the SFF world would rather women not be there, but tough teat. And just because we're female doesn't mean we only want to buy books with female leads. We like Batman and Superman just as much as you. Besides, female characters are written for the boys, not us girls.

For many years, women seldom wrote under their own names, taking male or gender neutral names instead. This explains a lot of why men don't seem to know female writers exist.

I'm past the tipping point and on the downhill slide to 60, and I've been a fan of comic books, and other forms of SFF for a long time -- 50+ years, which makes me feel old, suddenly.  I was married with kids when D&D came along, so I missed out on gaming.

I used to have an awesome collection of SF and horror magazines and comic books, most bought from drug stores and grocery store racks. There weren't any comic book stores around when I was a kid, but I used to take my oldest son to one in the 80s, where I felt like many women have stated here:  ignored, insulted, leered at and generally made to feel unsafe. The same for auto parts stores, garages and hardware/home improvement stores, but I still go because I'm the one who knows what to buy, even though the male clerks act like I'm an idiot.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

BrianDAnderson said:


> Where were all of you ladies when I was a kid?


Getting our fantasy fix at the library! Where it smells nice!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

On a related subject - It's neat to read Robert Jordan's Conan novels then see how much he grew as a writer when you read WOT.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

Heck, I'm all the way to 60. I had the full set of Silver Surfer including #1 but my college dorm-mate borrowed them and never gave them back . And I'll never forgive whoever made the Fantastic Four movies for what they did to my beloved Silver Surfer...

But you'll find female fans showing up where they feel safe and where they feel welcome. If they're not showing up in a place, you can be pretty sure they don't feel either of those things. And being called a b***ch by a stranger is one way of defining creepy and unsafe.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Getting our fantasy fix at the library! Where it smells nice!


Yes! One female librarian was a HUGE SF/F fan, so we had an enormous, well curated section to choose from.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

This is gotta be a location and perception thing. Growing up, I had a lot of female friends who were avid sf/f readers and watchers (SW and Trek especially) and I've played tabletop RPGs with a lot as well. I'd say of all the gamers I've played with in regular gaming groups, easily 70% were and are women. When I was an asst manager at Waldenbooks lo those many years ago, we normally had more female readers in the sf/f section that guys. 

It's such a commonality in my life that I do struggle to understand someone when they say "where have they been all my life"?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I'm still kicking myself for not going to meet Leonard Nimoy when he came to the D&D club meeting at my junior high school in 1977. I can't even remember what was so important I just had to do it instead. 

After the obvious Wheel of Time and Lord of the Rings, my favorite fantasy series is Lord Foul's Bane, followed by Darkover. I'm a terrible feminist for admitting it, but in SF I love Heinlein and Asimov. 

Whoever mentioned _Marion Zimmer Bradley's Sword and Sorceress Magazine_, she published one of my letters to her as the editor of it, under my maiden name, Cherise Morris. She also commented on a short story I sent her in one of her famous essays that is still online here: http://www.mzbworks.com/why.htm

This is the bit that is about *my story*!

"I rejected a story whose major punch was scatological because I personally am offended by bathroom humor."
~Marion Zimmer Bradley


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

StevenCampbell said:


> No way. Again, I'll take the pepsi challenge on this. I'm not an assistant manager but I live near some of the most popular comic shops on the west coast. I'll take a random day, say Saturday, record it, and bet you it won't be anywhere near 40%. Nowhere near. Neil Gaiman, who likes to be quoted here, made a parody of how anti-female comics stores were in the early 90s. Are you trying to say that 20 years before that it was better? It's certainly better today, but I simply don't see the product. There are no women there. And yes, I just go back from the hobby store and (surprise) no women.


Yup. I was totally making it up. You just can't trust anyone online these days, can you? 

I think you missed my point -- or perhaps I was unclear? (It certainly wouldn't be the first time.) As I was trying to state, many of those customers ONLY came in when I was working. They'd watch for my vehicle in the parking lot and if I wasn't the one holding down the counter, they'd just keep driving. Others had their items held behind the counter and would call prior to coming in to find out whether or not we were "busy." For us, the hours between ten and eleven were female customers to a one, because men in our area tended to shop mainly during lunch hour and/or after four in the afternoon.

If you've decided what you've decided on the matter, I get that. And that is what it is. But I would invite you (kindly, calmly, warmly) to take inventory of the number of female employees the stores in your area keep on staff. Are the stores well lit? Would women have had cause in the past to have had a negative experience with an employee or another customer? If your experience has been that women are nowhere to be seen in these shops, there's probably a reason for it. And I can tell you from many years of nine-to-five, six days a week, that reason ISN'T that women don't like the stuff. Please don't confuse a lack of female customers with a lack of interest. You (either intentionally or unintentionally) reiterated exactly what the women on this thread are saying: we're right here, we're just being ignored and trivialized, bemired in this culture that men are people and women are... _women_. And it makes us a tad grumpy.

More than that, though, even if it were the case that fantasy/sci-fi/comics/gaming were only ever made by men for male consumption, why would that excuse a culture of portraying women as vapidly inhuman? Objects first and people second?


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> This is the bit that is about *my story*!
> 
> "I rejected a story whose major punch was scatological because I personally am offended by bathroom humor."
> ~Marion Zimmer Bradley


HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Even better: I actually remember reading that letter at the age of 9 or so and going, "Who makes the punchline to the story a poop joke?"


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## Alessandra Kelley (Feb 22, 2011)

Monique said:


> OT - Please, Marvel, make that Doctor Strange movie. He's hot.


Marvel has broken my heart for nearly four decades with too many cancelled Doctor Strange stories.

I've been reading comic books since I was tiny, since at least the early 1970s. I got them from grocery store racks and bookstores because comic shops were full of creepy guys who stared.

I've been playing RPGs since 1980. I steer clear of Games Workshop stores because I have been snubbed in them to the point that the clerk would only make eye contact and talk to my husband ... who had zero interest in their products, thanks a lot. But there are some really nice games stores near me.

I've been reading fsf all my life. I grew up in fsf fandom, at first watching the women do the cooking and cleaning up while the guys in fandom did much of the talking and a lot of the skirt-chasing, ugh. Thank goodness fandom has changed somewhat.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Cherise Kelley said:


> After the obvious Wheel of Time and Lord of the Rings, my favorite fantasy series is Lord Foul's Bane, followed by Darkover. I'm a terrible feminist for admitting it, but in SF I love Heinlein and Asimov.


Lord Foul's Bane! Darkover! Cherise, I love you! I haven't heard anyone mention either of those series in such a long time and I looooooved them. I was seriously addicted to the Darkover series right around the same time as Dune. And Bane - if you can get past a certain incident at the beginning and keep it in context, is the most humane of fantasy books that I have ever read.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I've been going to my local comic stores for 20 years. I didn't get creeped on much. Hell, back in teh 90s, the nearest one had a girl running it (she was manager, not owner, but there ALL the time).  It was a dark little cave, but it was full of people who loved the things I loved and I'd often get in long conversations with strangers about various nerdy topics.

We've been in fantasy and gaming for a long time.  It's nothing new, we're just probably more visible now because of the internet.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Ha!  Lord Foul's Bane...  I remember when White Gold Wielder came out. I was taking Govt. & Econ during summer school so I'd have enough credits to spend my junior year out of the country as an exchange student. I read the book openly during class and the teacher let me because I had a straight A and every time he tried to nail me with a question, I got it right.

Frank Herbert gave a talk about being a writer when I was 18. Having him visit was a pretty big coup for my hometown.  He even talked to me about what to look out for in contracts.    Granted, I don't remember a word he said because I was so starstruck, but still!


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## Alessandra Kelley (Feb 22, 2011)

VictoriaS said:


> I love fantasy... have been reading it a long, long time, and there were always plenty of female fantasy writers to pick from, from Mists of Avalon to Anne Rice, to even further back to kid books that had a boy and girl friends as protagonists.


I'm afraid I can't recommend either of those authors, for some truly unhappy reasons. 

However, there are many wonderful recommendations of female f&sf authors in this thread:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,149540.0.html


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## tiffanycherney (Feb 18, 2014)

I'll second- or is it third at least by now?- the whole we've been here the whole time and just because you can't see us doesn't mean we aren't here. I was a frequent browser of the YA fantasy section of the local library, Tamora Pierce was a frequent favorite back then and when I moved up to the fantasy section after exhausting our rather smallish variety. Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley was one of my first stops followed soon by The Lord of the Rings.

I've gotten the whole- "You actually play?" when walking into a comic/game shop with magic cards in hand and my husband with his at my side. Even after we started playing it only seemed like the couple of people who knew me from school actually spoke to me and not just him. It really is an area issue with not seeing many women at a local game or comic store since I saw the same thing at this store too- there were like two other women in there I saw on a semi-regular basis, one of which was the shop owner. It's also a matter of:



jnfr said:


> But you'll find female fans showing up where they feel safe and where they feel welcome. If they're not showing up in a place, you can be pretty sure they don't feel either of those things.


This! A thousand times, this! If a woman doesn't feel welcome or safe why would they be there? Though its a lot better than it used to be, its still somewhat a hostile field to navigate and depending on where you're located some areas might be even more hostile than others. Okay, hostile might be too harsh of a word but you get my point.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

vmblack said:


> HAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> Even better: I actually remember reading that letter at the age of 9 or so and going, "Who makes the punchline to the story a poop joke?"


That would be me! (And it was dog poop, just for the record.  )


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Heather Lori Harding said:


> Lord Foul's Bane! Darkover! Cherise, I love you! I haven't heard anyone mention either of those series in such a long time and I looooooved them. I was seriously addicted to the Darkover series right around the same time as Dune. And Bane - if you can get past a certain incident at the beginning and keep it in context, is the most humane of fantasy books that I have ever read.


Aw, I'll love you, too. 

I read Bane so long ago (1984ish) that I cannot recall the incident you cite or even very much of the plot. I just remember feeling a sense of wonder while I read it. And that is what I read fantasy for, that sense of wonder.

Someone touched on it earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating: fantasy has its roots in fairy tales, and what girl doesn't love fairy tales?

And... There are more women than men in this thread! LOL!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

Drew Gideon said:


> Imagine walking into this thread and realizing that you don't actually exist. All those dice, compendiums, manuals, MtG collections, star trek collectible items, comic books, etc in your closet don't exist. All those books you read, games you played, shows you watched, sitting at conventions with multiple decks taking on challengers... that never happened.
> That's kind-of what I'm feeling right now, lol.
> 
> We existed! We still do! Maybe you guys were just too busy with your nose stuck in the latest Wolverine comic to see us. Or maybe you didn't see us because *our* nose was stuck in the latest Wolverine comic.


For me, it was more likely I was too stupid to notice.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

KaryE said:


> Ha! Lord Foul's Bane... I remember when White Gold Wielder came out. I was taking Govt. & Econ during summer school so I'd have enough credits to spend my junior year out of the country as an exchange student. I read the book openly during class and the teacher let me because I had a straight A and every time he tried to nail me with a question, I got it right.


 Nerdettes, unite! That was me all through high school, only back then I was reading Elric of Melnibone and similar stuff. The covers were _so bad_ that I remember one of my classmates accusing me of reading porn! "Nah, it's not porn," I told him. "The publishers just think only horny guys read fantasy." At the word _fantasy_, he gave me a look and I quickly said, "Not _that_ kind of fantasy! Fantasy as in Lord of the Rings!" I never did convince the guy I wasn't reading porn.


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## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

I think this thread may be locked soon (hopefully not, though) so I wanted to comment that when I was a kid my first real foray into SF/F was Andre Norton. I was introduced to _Star Ka'at_ when it came out and I devoured everything else she wrote. She is the author who made me want to write.

By the time I got to Tolkien in high school, I had already read Marion Zimmer Bradley, Ursula K. Le Guin, Joanna Russ, Joan Aiken, etc. I made it through Tolkien's books, but I was ultimately uninterested in the texts. (I know. Many of you will be angry for someone disliking Tolkien.) His work wasn't representative of the people I knew in my world, where the other authors wrote stories and characters to which I could relate.

And as others have pointed out, Geek Women have been around for a long time. Much longer than modern recollection gives credit. For example, Naomi Mitchison, a fantasy writer, was a contemporary of Tolkien's and he asked her to read his manuscripts before he published them. Also, for those in the know, WisCon is the oldest feminist science fiction/fantasy convention and was established in 1977.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Somebody had the newest Covenant book at the last workshop I went to. The cover was beautiful, but if that was supposed to be Covenant, it was also dead wrong--he had two intact hands!


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

StevenCampbell said:


> Stole this from reddit.


I'm going to hope that you just haven't thought through how this feels from the other side.

Imagine you're a woman. If you assume all those guys who hit on you aren't creeps, and one of them rapes you, then someone's going to tell you you had it coming. If a guy lets you know that he wants it (by asking you out) and you say no but are still nice to him, you're leading him on and you really want it, but you were just playing hard to get. That's the way it goes. Just try getting someone convicted of rape if people can attest that you were nice to him. Just TRY.

If you're a woman, you have to choose between someone's feelings and getting raped and being told that it's your fault and that you basically have no legal recourse. When it comes down to that choice--between making a guy feel temporarily bad because some girl he barely knows thinks he might be a creeper, and risking her safety--safety's coming first.

We assume guys are creeps because we have to. Because if we don't, we're asking for it. Because we know that rapes are most often committed by acquaintances rather than strangers, and that the chances are that we ARE going to be raped or sexually assaulted at some point in our lives, and the less creepy he seems, the more people will say "Oh, he would never," and the more creepy he seems, the more people will say "you had to know what he was."

When you complain about women treating you like a creep, you're saying that the five-minute ego blow of having someone treat you like a creep is more important than her not getting raped. That doesn't make me feel any safer, and it doesn't make you look any less creepy.

Want women to stop treating you like a creep? Work to create female-safe spaces.


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

Courtney Milan said:


> I'm going to hope that you just haven't thought through how this feels from the other side.
> 
> Imagine you're a woman. If you assume all those guys who hit on you aren't creeps, and one of them rapes you, then someone's going to tell you you had it coming. If a guy lets you know that he wants it (by asking you out) and you say no but are still nice to him, you're leading him on and you really want it, but you were just playing hard to get. That's the way it goes. Just try getting someone convicted of rape if people can attest that you were nice to him. Just TRY.
> 
> ...


You are like my fav person right now!!!


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Another sci-fi/fantasy lover here. Started with Anne McCaffrey, in late high school, and I was hooked. I've never really been into comic books, but I have visited comic stores when they were the only places you could buy RPG books in the 90s. Met my husband when we started talking computer games on a break during university lectures. When I started talking RPGs with him, he thought I was a geek, but I soon converted him.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

KJCOLT said:


> You are like my fav person right now!!!


Ditto.


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## mariehallwrites (Mar 14, 2013)

Count me in as a hardcore fantasy reader. It's mostly what I read. I love romance in the mix, but it doesn't have to be. Dr. Who anybody I've been reading comics all my life. Anne McCaffery, Piers Anthony, Mercedes Lackey, Anne Bishop, Jacquelin Carey, Robert Jordon, George R.R. Martin, Jim Butcher… I could keep going, but the list is too long. I have three bookshelves that reach nearly to the ceiling full of nothing but fantasy. 

I used to try and walk into the local comic shop, but the horrible moldy smell, the dim lighting, and carpet that looked full of questionable stains is what eventually led me to stay away from there. 

I've been around this scene for over 20 years. It's who I am, it's what I love. But just because you don't see me there doesn't mean I don't exist.


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## TJBlain (Mar 4, 2014)

I find it really interesting so many people assume you need to love comic books to enjoy sci-fi and fantasy. I've never been into comics. They're too short for me. I need something longer that I can sink my teeth into (this is why I don't read magazines, either). By the time I turned 15, I'd worked my way through all of the sci-fi and fantasy--mainly high fantasy back then--books in our town's library. All without having read a single comic. 

I will say that I've felt perfectly comfortable in comic book stores the few times I've been to them. I'm in board game stores more often than comic stores, though, as I play Euro-style games (many with a fantasy element).


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## AJHolm (Feb 18, 2014)

Courtney Milan said:


> I'm going to hope that you just haven't thought through how this feels from the other side.
> 
> Imagine you're a woman. If you assume all those guys who hit on you aren't creeps, and one of them rapes you, then someone's going to tell you you had it coming. If a guy lets you know that he wants it (by asking you out) and you say no but are still nice to him, you're leading him on and you really want it, but you were just playing hard to get. That's the way it goes. Just try getting someone convicted of rape if people can attest that you were nice to him. Just TRY.
> 
> ...


This is the saddest justification of being cruel to men that I've ever seen. I can't believe what I'm reading.

Assuming all men aren't creeps isn't the same as being unnecessarily rude to them. Do you think that being mean to someone is going to result in _less_ of a chance of being assaulted? I can't even begin to understand that line of thought.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

BrianDAnderson said:


> Where were all of you ladies when I was a kid?


On the fantasy aisle, looking for the latest from Robert Jordan or Robin McKinley. And getting weird looks from the check-out guy when I'd set a stack of fantasy books (instead of romance novels) on the counter. But I appreciate your blog post, Brian. Although I think you were a little off on the timing (women into fantasy isn't a new phenomenon IME), I liked the gist of your post. And I've been admiring your purple _Godlings_ cover. 



Cherise Kelley said:


> This is the bit that is about *my story*!
> 
> "I rejected a story whose major punch was scatological because I personally am offended by bathroom humor."
> ~Marion Zimmer Bradley


Now _that_ is a rejection you should wear with pride!


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

StevenCampbell said:


> Stole this from reddit.


I'm sorry, but being hit on by a store proprietor is creepy. A hobby store is not a singles bar. It's especially creepy when said store proprietor does not take the hint and keeps it up.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

AJHolm said:


> This is the saddest justification of being cruel to men that I've ever seen. I can't believe what I'm reading.
> 
> Assuming all men aren't creeps isn't the same as being unnecessarily rude to them. Do you think that being mean to someone is going to result in _less_ of a chance of being assaulted? I can't even begin to understand that line of thought.


I'm guessing you're a man.

A while ago, I was in a southern European country that shall remain unnamed. I complained to a (male, local) friend I knew from uni that I was sick to death of being creeped upon, of being proposed to, hung around, ogled, offered unnecessary rides in cars, you name it.

He said, "Trouble is, you western girls are all far too nice."

Unfortunately to these types, no doesn't mean no. It only means no if you're an absolute rude bitch about it. No but being nice is still yes in their view.

I know that sucks for the majority of nice honourable blokes, but that's the public face of being a (seemingly single) woman (I crossed out "young" as adjective, because you don't even need to be young).


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Hrmmm... I dunno. I think I'm on the fence on the creeper angle. If a guy asks me out, or heck, asks me to have sex behind the nearest dumpster D), I regard that as him hitting on me. If I say no politely and move away - or indicate that I'd like him to move away, depending - and he tries again, that's bordering on 'creepy' and I need to be very, very blunt. So I will be. Ya get one chance for a polite response, that's it.

All that said, though - I have an advantage over most women. I'm tall, I'm moderately muscled, and I have enough knowledge and physical power to at least make someone bent on trouble think twice. Plus, I have the self-confidence to express myself very honestly. A lot of people don't realise that a lot of women haven't been brought up to be strong, self-confident and honest. Many are specifically raised to be self-effacing, passive-aggressive, and physically weak (because muscles on women are unattractive, y'all). A lot of guys assume that women have been brought up the same as them, and just plain don't fathom that the world's a ****ing scary place when you're small, meek, physically weak, and don't know how to take ownership of your personal space. So they rail about the injustice of female attitudes, never realising that they scared the crap out of the woman they thought they were being nice to.

Oh yeah, the actual thread topic... I grew up in the country. No Star Trek (wrong channel, we couldn't get that one). No comic book store. Even if there had been one, I wouldn't have had the money to spend on them. Let's not bother getting into conventions!  We _did_ have a travelling library turn up once a week. It stopped across the road from my house, so I didn't have to lug my 8-9 books very far. Piers Anthony, Anne McCaffrey, Katharine Kerr, Isaac Asimov... bliss.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

nomesque said:


> Oh yeah, the actual thread topic... I grew up in the country. *No Star Trek (wrong channel, we couldn't get that one).* No comic book store. Even if there had been one, I wouldn't have had the money to spend on them. Let's not bother getting into conventions!  We _did_ have a travelling library turn up once a week. It stopped across the road from my house, so I didn't have to lug my 8-9 books very far. Piers Anthony, Anne McCaffrey, Katharine Kerr, Isaac Asimov... bliss.


*You poor thing!* Until I was 16 and had a job other than babysitting, I got most of my reading material from the library, too.

And then it was Walden Books in the mall for me. It never occurred to me to look for books in the comic store, or really even to go in there. I didn't see many guys inside the mall, either. Maybe this is an example of the _Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus_ phenomenon.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

I did this crazy thing with my fantasy novel. I defined characters by personality first and gender second. I thought of it like a rpg character sheet. And I thought of Josh Wedon's work on the Avengers and Firefly. He gives each character something important to do, regardless of gender. 

That's all I did "planning" wise.

I got a five star review where the reviewer said she'd give me six stars, if she could, just because the women were real women and not whores and sluts. She especially liked that the "ambitious bitch" was relatable. I still don't know which of the female characters she was referring too. They are all ambitious, but I guess one of them was bitchier about it than the rest  

I've had similar comments from several female readers. The feedback surprised me, because it is a violent action story. But I think several readers expected b-movie bimbos to go with the sword fights. All I wanted to do was make each character as interesting as possible. 

All to say, most of my reader interaction has been with women tired of cliches.

Others mentioned it, but Anne McCaffry, Ursual Le Guin, Marion Bradley, and Mary Stewart had big followings long before Jordan, Rowling or Collins. The female fans have always been there, as well as female writers (although not as many). I think Le Guin was publishing 20 years before Jordan. The neo-romantic period in the 1800s played around with female heroes rescuing men, but back then fantasies were called fairy tales for children. I can't remember the author's name or the book, but someone wrote fiction about a woman knight similar to joan of arc back in the 1800s.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> *You poor thing!* Until I was 16 and had a job other than babysitting, I got most of my reading material from the library, too.


Fortunately, I didn't know what I was missing. The area I grew up in... errr... well, science fiction fans were considered punching bag material, gay, and horrifically nerdy. Same with soccer (football) fans. So it's not like people talked at high school about what happened on Star Trek last night.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

There's so much stupid, sexist stuff on Reddit. And sadly, it almost always gets upvoted. 

As regard to creepy guys -- I've been hit on (not so much now I'm 29!) since the age of 15. Some creepy, some not, some downright abusive. I've never been rude to a single one of them. 

It's always an awkward moment. It makes you feel bad in so many ways. I know that guys have to find partners somehow and I know there are nice men out there who just want to get to know you. Not every experience was a bad one. But there are ways to make the situation less awkward and more respectful and safe. Like being polite, introducing yourself, actually wanting to get to know you etc. 

And, yes, Courtney is right. You have to have that caution in the back of your mind. You have to be on guard at all times.

Anyway, back to fantasy. 

I've only dipped my toe into the water really. I'm a genre hopper. I love dystopian fiction, I love Sci-fi and I've recently come to enjoy fantasy. YA fantasy is pretty exciting for women right now - Sarah J Maas, Kristin Cashore, Rae Carson, to name a few. I've just written my own YA fantasy and loved every minute of it.


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## jacklusted (Nov 29, 2012)

So how about some counter stats to "93% of comic readers are male."

http://comicsbeat.com/market-research-says-46-female-comic-fans/

46.67% of readers are women

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2014/02/ms-marvel-rockets-to-the-1-slot-on-marvels-digital-sales-chart/

Ms. Marvel, a comic focused on a female superhero is the #1 selling Marvel digital title in its debut week.

http://comicsbeat.com/facebook-stats-40-of-comics-fans-are-women/

Around 40% of comic book readers are women (that article also calls into question some of the methodology and statistics of the 7% of comic readers are women stat that you brought up).

http://www.ilikecomicstoo.com/women-dont-read-comics/

Around 40% of attendees at major comic cons are women, and 40% of the audience who saw the Avengers movie on its debut weekend were women.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

multiple reports. locked for review.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Steve,

you're relatively new here, so you may not be aware that "troll" is considered a four letter word here. It's not to be used. In general, name calling of your fellow members is not allowed and is against Forum Decorum.

We're discussing this thread in Admin.

EDIT: Oops! Ann beat me to it.

EDIT: Reopening this thread, I've done some pruning. I'm going out to breakfast (still on CA time), Harvey's got the comm (com?), be nice.

Betsy


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

At least in the 80s when I was in high school, it was a renaissance of women oriented SF. People have mentioned Darkover. I loved Darkover, still do. This thread reminded me and I went and checked and I have at least one new novel to buy that came out last year and a whole bunch of anthologies they're indie publishing!

I too remember the scatalogical comment in MZB's magazine.

She wasn't the only one out there though. Katherine Kurtz and her Deryni; Anne McCaffrey; Nancy Springer; Elizabeth Lynn; Lynn Abbey, Janet Morris, and Diana Paxson who wrote for the Thieves World anthologies; Jennifer Robertson's Cheysuli; Jacqueline Lichtenberg's Sime Gen. So many and all of them with a fandom that was very much majority women. One of the great things about getting my first Kindle in 2009 was going back and finding all those people and grabbing their books and reading them again.



> Nerdettes, unite! That was me all through high school, only back then I was reading Elric of Melnibone and similar stuff. The covers were so bad that I remember one of my classmates accusing me of reading porn!


I had the opposite experience. I was in the mood for a really simple sword and sorcery sort of thing and picked up a book by Lin Carter and it turned out to be a swords and sorcery erotica piece! That was definitely an eye opener.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

This thread has my breaking out my Dragonrides of Pern to read again. Add me to the geek list. Loved fantasy in high school and was totally a D&D player.


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## geekgrrl (Oct 14, 2013)

In case anyone's curious. The oft touted DC/Nielsen survey "results" does not say what people try to "make" it say.

From The Mary Sue:
"The survey results are not a reflection of all comic book readers or the broader audience for graphic novels. This was a survey of consumers who specifically purchased DC COMICS-THE NEW 52 comic books, either in print or digital format."

and 
"The bottom line? It's not that women aren't reading comics, it's that a lot of women aren't reading DC comics and there are legitimate, concrete reasons for that."

More at http://www.themarysue.com/dc-nielsen-survey-results/


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

I have to say, this has turned into an awesome thread. I'm glad it's unlocked.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> This thread has my breaking out my Dragonrides of Pern to read again.


It inspired me too--I'm binge-reading Kurtz's Camber trilogy from her Deryni-verse. Great stuff.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

Because of this thread I'll be bogging "Women and Fantasy Part Two".


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I'm submitting a comic to DC Comics called Toilet Woman. This heroine will fight to have the men of the world clean their own damn toilets.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

AJHolm said:


> This is the saddest justification of being cruel to men that I've ever seen. I can't believe what I'm reading.
> 
> Assuming all men aren't creeps isn't the same as being unnecessarily rude to them. Do you think that being mean to someone is going to result in _less_ of a chance of being assaulted? I can't even begin to understand that line of thought.


If he is ACTUALLY CREEPY, he probably would assault you. Creepy guys are those who do NOT respect boundaries. If you respect boundaries, you aren't creepy.

Last time I was nice to a creepy guy was high school. He found me back at the theater sound booth and rubbed his erection against me. So I punched him. He called me a bitch. (Actually, that was the last time a guy ever called me a bitch and meant it. Hmmmm.) And so I told everyone what he tried to pull and humiliated him, getting all the girls to call him names.

I'm not nice to creeps anymore.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

BrianDAnderson said:


> I have to say, this has turned into an awesome thread. I'm glad it's unlocked.


Yeah, me too! It's been great to lurk in.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

ElHawk said:


> Yeah, me too! It's been great to lurk in.


I've actually learned quite a bit. It's inspiring to me when I see such passion for my genre. After reading the posts, I have come to the conclusion that I was born a few years too soon and in the wrong part of the country.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

I've been a SF geek since I was a child. My mom and I watched Star Trek:TNG together every week. I fell in love with Douglas Adams as a high school freshman, and read every SF book I could find. I like fantasy alright, but it's no comparison to my love of science fiction. 

I am lucky to have friends who run comic shops and who have made a point to encourage female comic lovers and gamers in their stores. But I have had some real bad experiences as well, both at shops and at conventions. I have said "No" repeatedly to guys who continued to stalk and harass me. With one guy who made physical passes at me (among a lot of other things), other guys I know told me that I had to date him because "he's a nice guy". They refused to believe the guy was a creeper, even after numerous other women came forward about being stalked by him. I caught him bodyblocking a crying girl half his age a few years later and pulled her away from him. Unfortunately, reporting him didn't seem to do anything. 

It doesn't even matter if a guy is nice or not, women still have the right to say no, and to be left alone. So do men. And I wouldn't go anywhere alone where I felt unsafe, and I'm fairly brave about most things. I've had wonderful conversations with male geek strangers I've just met who've respected my personal space and my intelligence, but those who assume we're objects and treat us as such are out there.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

LynnBlackmar said:


> I've been a SF geek since I was a child. My mom and I watched Star Trek:TNG together every week. I fell in love with Douglas Adams as a high school freshman, and read every SF book I could find. I like fantasy alright, but it's no comparison to my love of science fiction.
> 
> I am lucky to have friends who run comic shops and who have made a point to encourage female comic lovers and gamers in their stores. But I have had some real bad experiences as well, both at shops and at conventions. I have said "No" repeatedly to guys who continued to stalk and harass me. With one guy who made physical passes at me (among a lot of other things), other guys I know told me that I had to date him because "he's a nice guy". They refused to believe the guy was a creeper, even after numerous other women came forward about being stalked by him. I caught him bodyblocking a crying girl half his age a few years later and pulled her away from him. Unfortunately, reporting him didn't seem to do anything.
> 
> It doesn't even matter if a guy is nice or not, women still have the right to say no, and to be left alone. So do men. And I wouldn't go anywhere alone where I felt unsafe, and I'm fairly brave about most things. I've had wonderful conversations with male geek strangers I've just met who've respected my personal space and my intelligence, but those who assume we're objects and treat us as such are out there.


Sounds like a guy that needs an old fashioned country a$$ whoopin'. Some men don't understand that there is a balance between being aggressive and being respectful. If I like a woman, I'll let her know how I feel(aggressive). Life is too short to be shy. If she's not interested, then time to move on (respectful). But of course there are men who for some reason have detached that part of their brain that keeps their impulses at bay. I can't say what I think should be done with them...I'll get the thread locked again.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Until someone has experienced unwanted advances and suggestions, mental undressing and a host of other things that have driven women to be very vocal (or carry concealed), they will never understand what it's like. But everyone has a mother/sister/daughter/female friend. And I bet every one of them has a story about the guy who didn't think "no" meant "no." There are a LOT of very strange people in this world.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

I'm female and a fantasy reader, but I never really got into comic books (though I love the superhero movies). The only comics I read were those in the newspaper. I remember liking Spiderman. I never really saw a link between fantasy books and comic books until this thread.

Anyway, my first fantasy read was Mercedes Lackey's _Arrows of the Queen_ series (which I read in the 90s, for I was a teen or a preteen). I read a lot of female characters and authors. Mercedes Lackey, Gayle Greeno, Diana Wynne Jones, Patricia Wrede, and Tamora Pierce come easily to mind. (By the way, at some point, my tastes changed. For a while now, I have wanted to read male main characters (not a duet of male and female main characters), with minimal romance, set in a secondary world--but no quest/D&D types. Don't have much luck there.)

Just going by my experiences, I feel that females were a significant portion of fantasy readers during the time I discovered fantasy, because I never had a problem finding female authors or female characters. And I used to read quite a bit then.

And I think females make up a larger part of the market now compared to then.

Jodi


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

Dara England said:


> On the fantasy aisle, looking for the latest from Robert Jordan or Robin McKinley. And getting weird looks from the check-out guy when I'd set a stack of fantasy books (instead of romance novels) on the counter. But I appreciate your blog post, Brian. Although I think you were a little off on the timing (women into fantasy isn't a new phenomenon IME), I liked the gist of your post. And I've been admiring your purple _Godlings_ cover.
> 
> Now _that_ is a rejection you should wear with pride!


Thanks. I assume you know we have the same artist.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Lynn Abbey! This thread is so exciting! There's a lot of names I'd forgotten over the years that I just loved. I'm desperate to re-read Norton's Witch World, the first three, but unfortunately they aren't available in ebook format for some reason, just the next three and then various others. 

I'll be off to the library this week!


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

Just a thought - Perhaps the women here should put together an anthology. Sadly, I couldn't take part being a guy, but I'd happily help promote it.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Until someone has experienced unwanted advances and suggestions, mental undressing and a host of other things that have driven women to be very vocal (or carry concealed), they will never understand what it's like. But everyone has a mother/sister/daughter/female friend. And I bet every one of them has a story about the guy who didn't think "no" meant "no." There are a LOT of very strange people in this world.


I still remember the first incident that made cold shivers run down my spine. It was a small thing, a small sexual related comment which made it clear he thought I was nothing but a body he was interested in, but I was young and inexperienced, and it came out of nowhere. Worse, it happened in a class where I had to sit next to him the entire time. But it froze me. And I talked myself out of saying anything to my teacher (I wanted moved away from him) for fear of the fuss and that everyone would know why.

My point is this was a small, insignificant thing in an inexperienced young woman's life, but what if it weren't? What if it had progressed? And what if I continued to give into my social conditioning as a female to not make a fuss, to be polite, to smile it off, to make sure no one is upset/keep the peace?

It's not just incidences that are problematic; it's the what-ifs they make you worry about and the way you convince yourself maybe they aren't worth making a deal over. Dangerous thought process that. Sometimes it is better, and safer, to be a b*tch.

Jodi


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Jodi said:


> Sometimes it is better, and safer, to be a b*tch.
> 
> Jodi


That's what I taught my girls. I didn't think they'd take to that extreme, but it worked for them.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> I'm desperate to re-read Norton's Witch World, the first three, but unfortunately they aren't available in ebook format for some reason


We chatter a lot as indies about the long tail of ebooks and indie publishing, but when you get on the other side and see all the great stuff that's no longer in print or isn't available in ebook format, it's really shocking and really really depressing.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

Kat S said:


> We chatter a lot as indies about the long tail of ebooks and indie publishing, but when you get on the other side and see all the great stuff that's no longer in print or isn't available in ebook format, it's really shocking and really really depressing.


I know! I'm sure it's a lot of odd permissions issues over who holds contractual publishing rights and so on, but it's totally frustrating.

For ex. I am a huge McCaffrey fan, but her Harper Hall trilogy is not available on the Kindle in the US. It is available at AmazonUK, though, a fact that drives me wild.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> I'm going to hope that you just haven't thought through how this feels from the other side.
> 
> Imagine you're a woman. If you assume all those guys who hit on you aren't creeps, and one of them rapes you, then someone's going to tell you you had it coming. If a guy lets you know that he wants it (by asking you out) and you say no but are still nice to him, you're leading him on and you really want it, but you were just playing hard to get. That's the way it goes. Just try getting someone convicted of rape if people can attest that you were nice to him. Just TRY.
> 
> ...


So, I realize this is in response to some other part of the thread that I didn't read, because I made myself duck out when others in the thread were intimating that comic shops were not safe for women because they thought they were going to be sexually assaulted by comic book nerds. And currently I'm telling myself to stay out of this, because I know just how much this particular issue makes my blood pressure rise, and I have 4K left to write today, so I really don't need to get into this, BUT...

Assuming that the majority of men are violent rapists is a misandric thought that's about on par with assuming that most women are too stupid to vote or incapable of holding property because of their delicate sensibilities.

Very brave women dedicated their lives to making sure that I have the right to be anything I want to be and not to be painted with broad, misogynistic brushes, and it's very hard for me to stand by and see women do the same thing to men in the name of gender equality.

For the record, it is a fact that the majority of men do not rape women, nor do they have any desire to do violence to them. Living your life in such a way that you assume that any man you meet could be a person out to do harm to you JUST BECAUSE he is a man is _sexist_. We wouldn't stand for it if the opposite were thought of about women, and we shouldn't stand for it now. No gender deserves to be judged entirely by the actions of the small minority that act badly. Nor does any race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

This is not in any way meant to denigrate sexual abuse and rape, because it is a horrible crime perpetrated against both genders and against children, and it should never be tolerated in any, way, shape or form. I am intimately connected to people who have been destroyed by it, and it is real. But it's not any man (or woman) who could do it. It's a special, sick, fucked up kind of individual for whom I have nothing but revulsion.

And I now promise myself to STAY OUT of this thread, because that is all I have to say.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Nobody has yet mentioned Sheri Tepper. I tried her and didn't get into her that much, but I know there are folks out there who will love remembering her.  Also, Gael Baudino, Robin Hobb, Melanie Rawn, Judith Tarr and C.S. Friedman.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

On a lighter note but related note, yes, little girls are interested in gaming so long as they aren't told it is Satanic. I would have started gaming much sooner if my male cousins weren't idiots and my Aunt wasn't a crazy person. 

Valerie: In all seriousness, the point is not that all men are rapists. The point is sex-related crime is the only crime in which the victim is blamed by society. And as such, women are in the unfortunate position that we need to make choices to mitigate risks. The problem is not that all comic book geeks are sexist. The problem is that comic book shops are designed to be tight quarters, usually poor lighting, and ran by people with no people skills.

The bigger problem is that while most men are not rapists, too many don't take the risks seriously. Guys all think it is just "guy talk" until something actually happens, and then they will try to rationalize what happened by fixating on what the woman was wearing, how she was talking, or something else instead of condemning the guy who did it. You can have a room of twenty perfectly "normal" guys. And in the majority of cases, those 20 guys will ignore the one guy harassing the women. Either because they don't think the harassment is serious, or because they think he's "just being a guy", or "well, what did she expect to happen walking into a store filled with guys?" It is the old "evil wins when good men stand by and do nothing." And because good guys stand by and do nothing too often, women have to take double the initiative to protect themselves in situations where they are outnumbered.

The other day, Mike came home from work ticked off at one of his co-workers. They were having a lunch function, and one of the female employees was helping serve the food. His pal came over to the table and made a lewd comment about how he wanted her to "handle" something else. Mike told him to watch his mouth. His friend said, "Why? She can't hear me."

Mike's response was "I can. Knock it off."

I was so proud of him because he did what guys with character need to do. He stepped up. Even though the woman subjected to the comment didn't herself hear it, he told me he knew other women might have heard it and it wasn't right to say stuff like that in the workplace. He gets it. Even though the other guys at the table accused him of being "whipped", he stood his ground. And the amazing thing that happens when men step up is that the creeps start to realize that their bad behavior is NOT acceptable and NOT the norm and that other men won't tolerate it.

But until more men do that, women will continue to think twice before walking into a cramped comic book shop filled with men. Most of them probably are perfectly nice. But the risks aren't worth it. But the fact that we aren't going into these shops doesn't mean we don't read comics or fantasy or game.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I realize there are reasons the thread, early on, touched on creepy behavior (and worse), but I'd like it if we could keep this thread discussing women and fantasy/sci fi books.

I read a lot more sci fi when I was younger than I do now, but still read it. Early books--the John Carter books by Edgar Rice Boroughs. Heinlein, Norton, Mccaffrey... And these were some of the first books I bought for my Kindle.

I have _The Time Traders_ and _Star Born_ by Andre Norton on my Kindle.
Heinlein: _Double Star_, _Glory Road_, _Red Planet_, _The Year of the Jackpot_ (two versions, hmmmm) and _Stranger in a Strange Land_ as an ePub
Mccaffrey: Crystal Singer and Killashandra (and my Fire 8.9" is named Killashandra)
seven Arthur C. Clarke, and a bunch of classic sci fi that has come up as Kindle Daily Deals....
Burroughs: The Works of Edgar Rice Burroughs which includes the Martian series

Member Mike Hicks' In Her Name series was the first indie sci fi I read....fabulous.

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I realize there are reasons the thread, early on, touched on creepy behavior (and worse), but I'd like it if we could keep this thread discussing women and fantasy/sci fi books.
> 
> I read a lot more sci fi when I was younger than I do now, but still read it. Early books--the John Carter books by Edgar Rice Boroughs. Heinlein, Norton, Mccaffrey... And these were some of the first books I bought for my Kindle.
> 
> ...


That's a great list. What did you think of the way Heinlein depicts women?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

*shrug*

I'd have to re-read _Stranger_ to give you a good answer; I haven't re-read it in years... I'm sure there individual lines that would make me wince now. Just as some of the lines in _Casablanca_ make me cringe. (Ilsa to Rick: "You have to think for both of us." Rick to Ilsa later: "...it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. *Someday you'll understand that*." *cringe*

When I started reading sci fi, it wasn't that easy to find books with strong women characters. I particularly liked Anne, the Fair Witness. She seems, in retrospect, somewhat Spock-like in her attitude and her precision. (And wasn't the first officer on the original Star Trek pilot a woman?) And I thought all of Jubal's secretaries in SIASL were pretty empowered, actually. One of these days, I'm going to re-read it. It may not age well...

EDIT: One line I always liked, was when Jubal was having something sent to a publisher, and secretary Anne is questioning him about whether he really wants to send it: "And besides, there's something wrong with the scansion."
Jubal: "Of course! You have to give an editor something to change, or he gets frustrated. After he pees in it, he likes the flavor better, so he buys it." 

Betsy


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

jnfr said:


> For ex. I am a huge McCaffrey fan, but her Harper Hall trilogy is not available on the Kindle in the US. It is available at AmazonUK, though, a fact that drives me wild.


I went to buy it in ebook earlier and was most disappointed!


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> *shrug*
> 
> I'd have to re-read _Stranger_ to give you a good answer; I haven't re-read it in years... I'm sure there individual lines that would make me wince now. Just as some of the lines in _Casablanca_ make me cringe. (Ilsa to Rick: "You have to think for both of us." Rick to Ilsa later: "...it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. *Someday you'll understand that*." *cringe*
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's funny the lines that make you cringe now. The wife and I watched The Man Who Knew Too Much the other day. Doris Day and Jimmy Stewart are talking about their son, and a character turns to Doris and says, "Well, I hope he's got your looks and your husbands brains." And it wasn't said as a joke. I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> That's a great list. What did you think of the way Heinlein depicts women?


I don't mind it too much, even these days. I'm a huge Heinlein fan. He could write strong women... sort of. He often seemed to play with the intellectual concept of women as equals without necessarily believing it. And his older-male characters were often thinly-veiled versions of him, I think... but he seems to have known it. Regardless, his female characters - while a little too keen to ALL HAVE BABIES OMG - at least went off on adventures by themselves now and then. And I liked a scene in Time Enough for Love, where in the future two people are negotiating a date for sex - "What gender are you?" "Does it matter?" "Well, no."


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## mariehallwrites (Mar 14, 2013)

Crystal singer yes. I reread that saga every year. But I also loved her freedom landing series. I have a thing for cat men. Rawr!


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

So are women better fantasy writers than men?

I just looked at my bookshelf and the only male YA Fantasy writer I have is Rick Riordan.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

von19 said:


> So are women better fantasy writers than men?


I don't think one or the other gender is "better" at any specific genre per se. I think women authors tend to write more fully developed female characters, which is something I enjoy. But that is a personal preference insofar as content. Not really a method of judging the quality of the writing.


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## mariehallwrites (Mar 14, 2013)

I don't necessarily think women are better, like Bards said. ONe of my all time favorites is Polgara written by David and Leigh Eddings. I just happen to enjoy a strong female character and it doesn't matter to me who writes it, if it's good, it's good.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

mariehallwrites said:


> I don't necessarily think women are better, like Bards said. ONe of my all time favorites is Polgara written by David and Leigh Eddings. I just happen to enjoy a strong female character and it doesn't matter to me who writes it, if it's good, it's good.


I agree. I don't care what gender the author is, as long as they have well-developed female characters who have crucial impact on the plot.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

I haven't seen anyone mention N.K. Jemisin yet. She writes some of the most innovative and interesting fantasy novels that I've read. She's relatively new on the scene, but she's been nominated for all the major awards.

Also, I adore Scott Lynch's books (okay, his latest one wasn't his greatest, but the first two were awesome). And his response to a reader who wrote to him and suggested that he should not write black female pirates in his book because it was too "politically correct" was freaking awesome: http://scott-lynch.livejournal.com/159686.html

And here's the money quote (the K-boards filter is going to have fun with this one):



> *Real sea pirates could not be controlled by women, they were vicous rapits and murderers and I am sorry to say it was a man's world. It is unrealistic wish fulfilment for you and your readers to have so many female pirates, especially if you want to be politically correct about it!
> *
> 
> You know what? Yeah, Zamira Drakasha, middle-aged pirate mother of two, is a wish-fulfillment fantasy. I realized this as she was evolving on the page, and you know what? I fucking embrace it.
> ...


Made me want to stand up and cheer. It's posts like that that make me happy about the future of fantasy--that people are writing wish-fulfillment characters for EVERYONE, not just one kind of person. Yay!


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

And Nnedi Okorafor!


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Crystal Singer - another one I'd forgotten and as a singer myself it had a very special place in my heart when I read it. Loved the covers too. They were the start of my worship of Michael Whelan.

I've been searching for some of these great titles that have come to mind through this thread and some are out of print and not yet in ebook format. Why??   And why did I get rid of so many of my paperbacks

edited to add: Yay! Crystal Singer is available for the kindle.


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## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Love N.K. Jemisin and Nnedi Okorafor!


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Here's another one - Barbara Hambly: Dragonsbane,


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

About all that raping and murdering:

Courtesy Captain John Phillips, pirate captain:



> IX. If at any time you meet with a prudent Woman, that Man that offers to meddle with her, without her Consent, shall suffer present Death.


Most successful pirate crews did NOT rape and murder. Not because they were nice guys. Because it was bad for business. If a crew earned a reputation of being murderers, then people would fight back. And nobody wanted a bloody battle out at sea. Also, the navies of the world would spend more resources hunting down violent pirates than "nuisance" pirates. So the majority of successful pirate crews tried to avoid violence entirely when taking over a ship.

And while few in number, there were several well-known (and feared) female pirates: Ann Bonny, Pirate Queen Teuta, Ching Shih. Not names most people know, but for those of us with an interest in Golden Age piracy, amazing historical figures.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Yeah, I love teh Gentleman B*st*rds books (pretty sure the title of the series isn't kosher with Kboards, haha).  I loved the last one, too, and can't wait for the next. 

Barbara Hambly is awesome. I love her Sunwolf and Starhawk books (mercenaries are a reader cookie for me) and her vampire series (her vamps are extremely creepy).


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

For the people that think women couldn't be pirates... there's this thing called google 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_piracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Shih

That part of Pirates of the Caribbean part 3 where Kira Knightly becomes a pirate king was inspired by an actual woman who inherited her powers from a man and is historically the most successful pirate of all time. Her fleet challenged sovereign nations.



> The fleet under her command established hegemony over many coastal villages, in some cases even imposing levies and taxes on settlements. According to Robert Antony, Ching Shih "robbed towns, markets, and villages, from Macau to Canton."[18] In 1806 a British officer reported on the terrible fate of those who resisted Ching Shih's pirates; the pirates nailed an enemy's feet to the deck and then beat him senseless.[19] Contemporary reports from the British admiralty called her "The Terror of the South China"[20]
> Finding it difficult to defeat her, in 1810, amnesty was offered to all pirates, and Ching Shih took advantage of it.[21][22][23] She ended her career that year, accepting an amnesty offer from the Chinese government. She kept her loot, and opened a gambling house.[24] She died in 1844, at the age of 69.[24]


Google


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> About all that raping and murdering:
> 
> Courtesy Captain John Phillips, pirate captain:
> 
> ...


Beat me to it


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

burke_KB said:


> That part of Pirates of the Caribbean


Ah, Captain Jack....now there's a women and fantasy scenario.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Ah, Captain Jack....now there's a women and fantasy scenario.


While I agree with the sentiment, methinks that is NOT the sort of fantasy the OP intended!


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> While I agree with the sentiment, methinks that is NOT the sort of fantasy the OP intended!


And yet, it's... inspirational, all the same!


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Greg Strandberg said:


> When I was in a critique group a few years ago one person mentioned that *there were no women in my story*. She was right. Even minor characters were all men.
> 
> So when I wrote my latest fantasy book I tried to include more women, and even had a female main character. *Still, I do have few women characters in my novels.*


Do you know why?


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## storyteller (Feb 3, 2014)

I've never noticed there to be a shortage of female-written fantasy.  I read giant piles of Mercedes Lackey, Tanith Lee, Robin Hobb, and lots of short stories by various writers as they come up in anthologies and collections.  

Tanith Lee is probably my main stylistic influence.  She's so great and it's so much harder to get her books these days.  Talk about a writer tradpub served poorly!  

She's also prone to Bechdel-test writing, which is great if you like lots of female characters in your fantasy.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

EelKat said:


> IMy fave TV shows are X-Files, Star Trek, Cleopatra 2525, Dr. Who, FireFly, Xena, and Andromeda. My fave movies are Labyrith and Dark Crystal. My fave mini series are Tenth Kingdom and Merlin.


I'm watching X Files right now on Netflix. I watch the entire series at least once a year.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2014)

EelKat said:


> hhhmmm...did you know that the owner of one of the LARGEST COMIC BOOK COLLECTIONS IN THE WORLD (along with some of the rarest books in the world - as in books that are believed to have 10 or fewer copies in existance) complete with Guiness Record to prove it, is a woman, and she's me?


I must now stalk you. Nicely.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I'm watching X Files right now on Netflix. I watch the entire series at least once a year.


Wow, how do you have the time? There were like 200 episodes. I loved the series (mostly), but gosh, that's a lot of viewage.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

EelKat said:


> hhhmmm...did you know that the owner of one of the LARGEST COMIC BOOK COLLECTIONS IN THE WORLD (along with some of the rarest books in the world - as in books that are believed to have 10 or fewer copies in existance) complete with Guiness Record to prove it, is a woman, and she's me?


Wow. How many do you have?


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Monique said:


> Wow, how do you have the time? There were like 200 episodes. I loved the series (mostly), but gosh, that's a lot of viewage.


I don't really watch it closely. Since I've seen it so many times I know the episodes, I just start playing them while I'm working, and look up occasionally when there's a scene I really like. I'm one of those people who has to have a television running while I write. I just always tune into things I've already seen. I watch new stuff when I'm formatting books, doing graphics, etc.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The larger issue is the disconnect between fantasy FICTION and fantasy ART. Fantasy has a long and storied history of strong female writers. But for much of the modern era, fantasy has been actively alienating women with chainmail bikinis and male-gaze depictions of women. D&D for the longest time was the worst offender. Ye gods, even now WoTC can't depict a female creature without a sexy outfit and boobs...even if it is a reptile!


I've loved science fantasy ever since I read _A Wrinkle in Time_ when I was a wee young one (we're talking the 70s). Most of my favorite writers of sci fan were women like Anne McCaffrey, and Ursula K. Le Guin (I'm almost jealous Hugh was able to hangout with her).

I took my daughter (who is ten) to meet Hugh at the Tampa Bay Comicon, I wanted to get a signed set of the Molly Fyde series for her, and I was hoping she would fall in love with sci fan and sci fi like I do.

It was a huge no go. Every aisle contained naked overly sexualized women art that somewhat traumatized my daughter. I guess, having read it, and not seen it so much when I was young, I didn't realize how pervasive it is. She was totally turned off and never wants to attend comicon again.


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

EelKat said:


> My fave movies are Labyrinth and Dark Crystal.


Those are my favorite movies too! My absolute favorites of all times. My first copies were recorded on VHS from HBO, and I must've bought 3 or 4 DVDs of each because I keep telling people they HAVE TO WATCH THEM and then I never get them back. 

(I am female, BTW... just thought I'd mention that since it's relevant to the thread)


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

I admit to being male so I'm wondering whether it is safe for me to comment in here.  

As well as being a fantasy/sf reader (and wannabe writer) I also work as a Library Officer in a school library.  At least here in Australia, libraries almost exclusively seem to employ females.  Very few men work in libraries (or as teachers nowadays as well it seems.)  One of the big concerns in libraries is trying to get boys reading.  Of course you have those labelled geeks and nerds who read a lot - and I was one of them at school myself.  You had to drag me out of the libraries.  As for the rest, they only read if they are forced to.  It isn't so much an issue with the girls.

In fact the whole literary industry seems dominated by women now.  Not just readers, but authors and publishing too.  It may be that a few of the old dinosaurs are reacting to what they see as a 'take-over' of what they perceive as one of the last bastions of male dominance in the literary industry.  Or they may just not like women.  I'm not them and I don't care who writes a book, as long as I like it.

At some point I am wondering if there won't be similar talk of men in fantasy if trends continue the way they do with the reading habits of boys and the continuing growth of women as both authors and readers of fantasy.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

NK Jemisin has such a fresh writing voice. I only recently picked up one of her books and my mind has to stretch to keep up with her.


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## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Anyone read Lauren Beukes or Karen Lord? Both are phenomenal writers as well. 

BTW, I'm glad the thread was reopened. Thanks Ann and Betsy. And thanks everyone for the discussion!


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

BrianDAnderson said:


> Thanks. I assume you know we have the same artist.


I wasn't certain but guessed it was him by the style.


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## TJBlain (Mar 4, 2014)

I shouldn't have kept following this thread--I'm going to be rereading books for the next week. Of those others have mentioned, McCaffrey's Crystal Singer and Dragonsong series, along with Lackey's Arrows of the Queen series, survived my many moves and book purges and have a place of honor on my single remaining bookcase (8 shelves, double rows). 

A few authors I don't think were mentioned yet are Sharon Shinn, Tara K. Harper, and Paula Volsky (she didn't write many books, but I thought Illusion was amazing).

I think I'll revisit Talia in Arrows of the Queen first...


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Thank you all so much for the recommendations! Has anyone mentioned Lynn Flewelling? Sorry, I've been popping in and out all day -- I might've missed it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

EelKat said:


> hhhmmm...did you know that the owner of one of the LARGEST COMIC BOOK COLLECTIONS IN THE WORLD (along with some of the rarest books in the world - as in books that are believed to have 10 or fewer copies in existance) complete with Guiness Record to prove it, is a woman, and she's me?
> 
> And I'm also a comic book script writer, and I write RPG (D&D 2ed style) game modules, and I'm a dungeon master, and I'm a player in multiple game groups, and in one of those groups I am one of 4 female players in that group (which also has 9 male players), and I have a bigger and more complete collection of Magic the Gathering cards than any of the 30+ guys in our local MTG club and I've been reading Star Trek novels since they first started writing them in the 1970s and in the 1980/90s I was reading Pern, Shannara, Conan, and Majipoor series.
> 
> ...


Um. Can I just be you when I grow up? I'm working on it, I swear!


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2014)

I actually posted a follow up on my blog if you're interested.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

SM Reine said:


> When it comes to Anne McCaffrey, Crystal Singer is my jam. The Rowan, too. Aw yiss.


Oh yeah! I love those too. Killashandra was another, and a very small book called Restoree was short but I liked it enough to remember the story many years later and re-read it. I like most of her stuff. The brain brawn books yes, and the dragon books of course, but not the Catteni series for some reason. Hated those.


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## dave_flora (Jan 26, 2014)

A. S. Warwick said:


> I admit to being male so I'm wondering whether it is safe for me to comment in here.
> 
> As well as being a fantasy/sf reader (and wannabe writer) I also work as a Library Officer in a school library. At least here in Australia, libraries almost exclusively seem to employ females. Very few men work in libraries (or as teachers nowadays as well it seems.) One of the big concerns in libraries is trying to get boys reading. Of course you have those labelled geeks and nerds who read a lot - and I was one of them at school myself. You had to drag me out of the libraries. As for the rest, they only read if they are forced to. It isn't so much an issue with the girls.
> 
> ...


In higher education, and this is a trend that has been happening in enrollment since the 70's. In fact, if current trends continue, only 40% of university graduates will be male. I assume a similar turnover has happened in fiction writing and reading as well, particularly in the areas of fantasy/paranormal.

It's kind of frustrating to me, because I'm interested in paranormal fantasy with strong male characters, but when I go to Amazon and search for "paranormal fantasy", I get romance or erotica. It's a tough slush pile to have to sort through, and I usually wind up just looking up books I've enjoyed and scrolling through the "readers who bought this also enjoyed..." list.

It puts men squarely in the position that women were in back in the 70's...having to dig for reading material that didn't contain flat or absurd characters of the same gender. I don't consider this progress, because it alienates male readers. I assume the pendulum will swing back toward center at some point, with equal representation among both sexes, but I'd be curious to read some articles examining what happened.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Volsky's _Illusion_ was great! I reread it several times.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

SM Reine said:


> Paranormal has kinda become synonymous with PNR, so that's not really a good search term for what you're looking for. The books are out there, though.


Where would something like the X-Files be slotted? Dark fantasy?


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## dave_flora (Jan 26, 2014)

SM Reine said:


> Amazon has a "non-romantic urban fantasy" browse category you might find helpful. You have to click around to find it, but it's there. Horror > Dark Fantasy has more of what you're looking for, too. You might want to explore the alsobots on Jim Butcher's Dresden Files.
> 
> Off the top of my head from browsing for the same thing, I'd say you should look for authors like John Conroe, Steve McHugh, Robert J Crane (disclosure: a friend of mine), SL Grey, Adam Night, Marlene Perez, Rob Thurman, Eric Asher, and Ryan Rennik. (Warning: I mostly read indie authors, so that's most of what I can suggest.
> 
> Paranormal has kinda become synonymous with PNR, so that's not really a good search term for what you're looking for. The books are out there, though.


Oho! That's awesome! Thanks for the tips!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Yeah, X-files I would say is solidly SF. The main mythology and big plot is all about aliens.  A lot of the time they try to explain things with science or at least hand-wave it, so that also puts it into SF in my mind.  As SM said, it has thriller/mystery elements of course, since they are generally solving crimes, and some episodes trend right into horror.

That's why I like the term Speculative Fiction. It covers all the bases and diffuses the need for sub-genre slicing and dicing.  If I published an X-files like thing, I'd use words like fantasy, science fiction, horror, mystery, and thriller as my big keywords and try to slot it into an SF category and a mystery/crime category for my two picks.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2014)

For those interested, Drivethrurpg.com is doing a special feature on Women in Gaming for International Women
's Day. They set up a dedicated page to highlight RPG products designed by women.

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/rpg_womensday.php?manufacturers_id&filters=0_0_0_0_0_45232


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2014)

Raise the vigirascope and full speed ahead.


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