# Am I being picky



## Barbara M (Nov 21, 2008)

I love murder mysteries, but I've gotten fed up with main characters (generally female) doing something so stupid that you actually hope they get themselves killed.

Recently, I read a mystery where the main character 1. gets into a car with someone she thinks is a creep and knows is a liar.  It didn't work out well. 2. Meets with someone who SAYS she is going to murder her.  Goes without calling the cops or taking a weapon.  I'm not going to mention the book, I reviewed it badly on Amazon, and I don't want people to think I'm on a rampage against the author, which I am not. But I am on a rampage against these authors who write this sort of scene.  In another book the heroine goes to a junk yard without a weapon. She  notices how deserted it is. She runs into the murderer and decides to confront him. Really?  Why?

I don't have any problems with the victim becoming the victim through stupidity; they have to die somehow.  And I don't have any problems with a woman cop confronting a suspect at any old time.  I'm from a police family, and know that they train cops to think they can handle anything and they are always armed. (Although they are also trained to call for backup, but I'm willing to give some leniency to the author.) But it seems like in cozies either these scenes are being written more often, or in my dotage, I just can't take them any more.

It seems to me that it is only woman writers who get their characters into these fixes. I can't recall a male writer who made his main character so clueless. 

So, my questions are:  do other folks notice more of this, do they go a little crazy when they read it and is it mainly women authors?


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

I'm definitely with you on disliking characters making obviously (to me) stupid decisions. There's probably some fuzzy point where it goes from being a bad decision based on lack of information, personal biases, and so forth versus just plain stupid, seemingly based only on the author's need to set up some situation to create additional conflict or action.

I don't know if I could say I've noticed it more from one gender or the other when it comes to authors, though I must admit the first couple that came to my mind this evening concern female characters written by female authors. (One is a case of a supposedly very competent woman throwing ethics and judgement out the window the moment she fell in lust for a male character -- which maybe isn't all that far-fetched, but it just felt like an easy way to create conflict and tension while making this reader lose most of his sympathy for the female character.)


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

I recently stopped reading a very popular book because I felt that the main character in a first person narration was too stupid to survive, even though I know she ultimately prevails.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

I think part of the problem with cozies is that the main character often isn't a police officer, detective, PI, or involved in the mystery plot in any way. She often just happens into it by accident. And I think in those scenarios, it's difficult to realistically keep the main character involved because in reality, she'd probably just report it to the police and get on with her life. Similar to what NogDog says, it becomes a matter of the author's need to keep the main character involved in the plot, even at the detriment of the character development. The reason you might see this less with male author and male characters is because cozies are generally a female genre.

But to answer your question, no, you're not being picky - creating a good, believable mystery plot is not easy and forcing the character to make stupid decisions just to make the plot go the way the author wants or needs it to is a sign that the author just isn't very good at creating a mystery plot that works well.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

This is the main reason I've totally gone off most 'cozies' and prefer books where the MC is a 'trained professional'.  Not that they don't sometimes do dumb stuff, but at least then there's a scene where they acknowledge that, yeah, that was dumb. And then, usually, they don't do it again. 

It's like the characters IN these sorts of books, have never *read* these sorts of books (or watched ANY television!  ) and learned that there's value in taking basic precautions and not acting like an idiot.

I've no patience for 'em either.

And, BTW, there's nothing wrong with giving the title of a book you didn't like and saying why.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

I read some old mysteries written in the '40s when I was a teenager and ran into just that kind of scenario regarding women. One character was even talked into marrying a man she just saw commit a murder because that way she could not testify against him. Of course, the other alternative was for him to kill her if she did not comply. And this book was written by a MALE author! Way too stupid for anyone to consider reality! Needless to say I stopped reading those books after a couple of them in a similar vein.

I followed a very popular mystery writer for decades, only to bail out when she started focusing so many of her recent books on teens or young children being molested and murdered. As this was a radical change from her former style I dumped her and haven't even bothered to check out her new stuff. It's bad enough that there are so many children and teens abducted, raped, and murdered as it is without having to read about it in fiction as if for "thrills" although I don't think it was the author's intent. She just seemed to think this is a relevant topic so why not write about it. Well, I'll tell you why not. There was a 14 year old girl in my own community who was abducted, raped, murdered, and dismembered in an attempt to hide the body and it horrified an entire County. Why on earth would I want to read about something like this for entertainment purposes?! My solution was to simply drop the author and her books. 

Perhaps you should do the same and just screen out new writers by checking the Look Inside feature to sample the writing.


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## Ben Finn (Mar 4, 2013)

hmmmm...difficult one...

I used to read allot of murder mysteries, and truth be told it may be the exact reason why I stopped reading it.


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

Barbara:

I have this issue with a lot of TV shows, oddly.  Recently, in The Killing.  I love the show, but the main character loves making a certain mistake that leaves me yelling at the screen like she just fumbled a ball 

In books, I often look the other way because how ELSE is Mr. Hero going to get in that pit with the monster to fight it?  I know, the author should find a better way, but sometimes I give the writer slack, especially if it's a favorite writer.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

I've seen those types of characters called TSTL (too stupid to live.)
Trying to figure out why an amateur sleuth gets involved in a murder is always difficult, but it's the author's job to figure out how to make that workable and part of that means having the main character display common sense. One thing that can help is if the author ramps the motive up or worsens the consequences of not doing the stupid thing, whatever it is. If the main character can acknowledge that it's a stupid (read: potentially dangerous) act he or she is about to undertake, but feels compelled to continue for really good reasons, then I think it helps with suspending disbelief. 
I think it's important for readers to respect the hero. Otherwise why would we bother following him/her?


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## Ravensbreath (Aug 14, 2013)

Books yes, but I - and I think we all - have seen movies like that also.  It drives me crazy.  Just saw one the other night where the 'unarmed' heroine in shorts and sandals descends into a dark rank hidden undergound cellar she knows has dead bodies and probably the killer in it - which of course it does.  She's nearly sliced and diced six times over but manages to outsmart the crazed maniac killer (coolly, I might add).  And there's more of that.  This was not supposed to be a dumb teenage horror flick.

Well, a man wrote the script.  And probably most movies where we see this kind of thing are written by men.  So both genders do it.  I find myself saying, why couldn't you have given her a crowbar (if she MUST go down there)?  Everything that happened still could have had she been wielding the crowbar.  Make it real.

I'm an armchair director of books and movies and get really annoyed when writes/directors are lazy because they think most readers/watchers won't notice or care.  Many do.  They should be ashamed.

I have a lot more beefs about what writers get away with but that's for another time.

Meanwhile I'm with you and very picky.


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## dkgould (Feb 18, 2013)

This used to drive me really crazy.  Then, one day in the middle of winter I heard a huge thump in my basement (I lived in Maine, at the time, by the way, which is relevant).  I got scared because I was alone in the house.  So I grabbed the cordless phone (which was in no way large enough to be any kind of weapon, but I stupidly thought I would be able to call someone if there were trouble) and I headed for the basement, yelling, "hello" all the way down the stairs.  After I realized that it was just a large chunk of ice falling off of the roof and not a bad guy, I felt like an idiot for doing the same stupid thing all those characters I hated did.  So now I give the main character one stupid mistake.  Any repetition and I put down the book, but they get one free pass with me now


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

TSTL = To stupid to live.

I've stopped reading a number of series/books because of it.  Ye old Nancy Drew "meet me at the boathouse at midnight and I'll reveal all."  

I can think of a male author/male main series I stopped reading because of this syndrome.  It's not considered a cozy either.  

I think sometimes authors just assume that readers overlook the "plot device" but the more you read, the faster you recognize it.  And sometimes you don't have to read a lot to scream, 'WHAT?  WHAT?' when the book takes a turn for stupidity.  

I do think that too many cozies depend upon characterization to pull them through.  I LOVE characterization, but it does not make up for bad plots, lazy plots or TSTL.  I can overlook a little stupidity here and there, but not the blatant type--the confrontation when you have no weapon, the meeting in a dark alley, the "I'll go out after dark even though I know a vampire lives down the street and has it in for me..."

So no.  I don't think you're too picky!


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## LectorsBooks (Apr 30, 2013)

Chiming in with my agreement!

I don't mind if a character happens upon a situation (or it happens upon him/her) and gets in to danger that way, but when every book in a series relies on the same formula ending of character starts to figure out who did it, tries to come up with a way to "catch" them, ends up in a life or death situation, then gets out of it by pure dumb luck, I lose interest very fast. 

I absolutely LOVE the "TSTL" characterization, never heard it before, but it's perfect.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

dkgould said:


> This used to drive me really crazy. Then, one day in the middle of winter I heard a huge thump in my basement (I lived in Maine, at the time, by the way, which is relevant). I got scared because I was alone in the house. So I grabbed the cordless phone (which was in no way large enough to be any kind of weapon, but I stupidly thought I would be able to call someone if there were trouble) and I headed for the basement, yelling, "hello" all the way down the stairs. After I realized that it was just a large chunk of ice falling off of the roof and not a bad guy, I felt like an idiot for doing the same stupid thing all those characters I hated did. So now I give the main character one stupid mistake. Any repetition and I put down the book, but they get one free pass with me now


That is TOO funny!


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## Susan Alison (Jul 1, 2011)

Oh, yes - the TSTL heroine has been around for a long time, not just in cozies. It's a definite hit-the-wall thing for me. So, of course you're not picky. Unless I am, too...

On the other hand, I've known quite a few TSTL people in real life, too - but then again, you know what they say - truth is stranger than fiction - so don't write the truth - write the fiction to be believable! yeah.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

dkgould said:


> This used to drive me really crazy. Then, one day in the middle of winter I heard a huge thump in my basement (I lived in Maine, at the time, by the way, which is relevant). I got scared because I was alone in the house. So I grabbed the cordless phone (which was in no way large enough to be any kind of weapon, but I stupidly thought I would be able to call someone if there were trouble) and I headed for the basement, yelling, "hello" all the way down the stairs. After I realized that it was just a large chunk of ice falling off of the roof and not a bad guy, I felt like an idiot for doing the same stupid thing all those characters I hated did. So now I give the main character one stupid mistake. Any repetition and I put down the book, but they get one free pass with me now


At least you took the phone. I'd lie and say I took my gun. Well, I actually would probably take my gun. 

I can and do overlook an occasional TSTL moment, but it does depend on how well it's written. Was it spur of the moment or did the author just mention a gun in the trunk of the car? Did the author do a proper job of setting up WHY the woman or guy had a sudden brain fart and death wish? How out of character is it for the character?


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

I did it too. As a teenager I heard strange noises at night next door when I knew they were away. So I got up and went to look - my parents didn't even wake up. Presumably kids, as the garden hosepipe had been switched on.

It never occurred to me that this was both stupid and dangerous until the next day! Probably because I read too much and that's what the characters in the books would do....


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## dkgould (Feb 18, 2013)

DebBennett said:


> It never occurred to me that this was both stupid and dangerous until the next day! Probably because I read too much and that's what the characters in the books would do....


lol see, you're smart, it was the books that influenced you. I was just plain stupid


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## Robena (Jan 19, 2013)

I can overlook a heroine doing something dumb or risky if the stakes are high enough. I get picky if there is nothing at stake for the heroine and yet she puts her life in danger.


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## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

Lol. Looks like this is hitting home with too many of us:



> This used to drive me really crazy. Then, one day in the middle of winter I heard a huge thump in my basement (I lived in Maine, at the time, by the way, which is relevant). I got scared because I was alone in the house. So I grabbed the cordless phone (which was in no way large enough to be any kind of weapon, but I stupidly thought I would be able to call someone if there were trouble) and I headed for the basement, yelling, "hello" all the way down the stairs. After I realized that it was just a large chunk of ice falling off of the roof and not a bad guy, I felt like an idiot for doing the same stupid thing all those characters I hated did. So now I give the main character one stupid mistake. Any repetition and I put down the book, but they get one free pass with me now Smiley


Before I read that, I was just going to say it's lazy, sloppy writing to have a character who should know better do this. Now I'm thinking... okay, but the character still has to have a _reason _for doing the dumb thing -- like fear of embarrassment, or having called the cops too many times (a cry wolf scenario), or the stakes being higher if she _doesn't _go down into the basement. And the reader has to know that reason _before _she descends the steps in the dark... because the light switch doesn't work... with the flashlight that dims and goes out because -- oops, she dropped it! -- and by-the-way, the circuit breaker box is waaaaaaaay on the other side of the basement...

So, despite have done the dumb thing myself ("What's that noise outside? I'll just check it out myself and leave my oblivious husband sleeping in bed), I expect more from writers -- if they expect _me _to respect their MC. Otherwise, I'll root for the bad guy. Survival of the fittest, baby!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

A reminder to approach questions in the Book Corner as a reader, not as a writer.  Thanks.

Betsy


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## Mark Young (Dec 13, 2010)

You are not being picky. A reader should expect the author to create a main character who exercises good judgement and good sense. Unless, of course,  they're creating a character like the old TV series in GET SMART, a  character who bungles one incident after anther and good luck always keeps him/her out of trouble. Short of that, we want a person with some level of intelligence who can match wits with the antagonist.


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## Jack Zavada (Aug 21, 2013)

You're not being picky at all. I like to use the word "discriminating." 

I get honked off when I encounter this in real life! How many times have you heard someone whine about something bad that happened to them because: they didn't maintain their vehicle as they should have; they didn't have insurance; they ate/drank/smoked/ingested something they shouldn't have; they went where they shouldn't have...yeah, it goes on and on.

To *read* about a main character that idiotic is headache-inducing. Who can admire a main character who's a moron? The classic main characters are smart, witty, imaginative, brave, and far-sighted.

Why spend our time reading about someone who blunders through life? We can listen to our friends and relatives if we want that!

Jack


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Well...the last couple of posts imply that these issues are all about main characters who are stupid.  It's really worse than that for me.  It's that there are main characters who aren't stupid, but DO SOMETHING STUPID TO FORWARD THE PLOT, usually near the end of the book.   Generally most of us aren't picking up books and reading pages and pages of characters who think it's a good idea to take a nap across a railroad line every third page.  It's that the character is smart, sassy, self-reliant...and then they decide that "sure, meeting the possible kidnapper at midnight, alone with no gun" is a GREAT IDEA.  I can solve the case!!!

I would have used an example of:  "Go into a dark basement to see what that noise was" but, erm.    

Just kidding.  I loved that story.  I'm still laughing because I totally get it and I know I'd have done that too.  But not if I were embroiled in solving an actual mystery where someone had been threatening me every 4th paragraph...yanno


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

MariaESchneider said:


> Well...the last couple of posts imply that these issues are all about main characters who are stupid. It's really worse than that for me. It's that there are main characters who aren't stupid, but DO SOMETHING STUPID TO FORWARD THE PLOT, usually near the end of the book. Generally most of us aren't picking up books and reading pages and pages of characters who think it's a good idea to take a nap across a railroad line every third page. It's that the character is smart, sassy, self-reliant...and then they decide that "sure, meeting the possible kidnapper at midnight, alone with no gun" is a GREAT IDEA. I can solve the case!!!
> 
> I would have used an example of: "Go into a dark basement to see what that noise was" but, erm.
> 
> Just kidding. I loved that story. I'm still laughing because I totally get it and I know I'd have done that too. But not if I were embroiled in solving an actual mystery where someone had been threatening me every 4th paragraph...yanno


Yeah, I was going to point that while we may have all gone in search of the source when we thought something went bump in the night, we're not all involved in a murder mystery. When you're trying to figure out who a murderer is, it's just stupid to go into a dark basement to see what the noise was - but I'm guessing most of us are not involved in something like that when we do stuff like this.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Clearly I'm a complete wimp.  If I was alone in my house and heard a noise outside the bedroom that I couldn't explain away, I'd probably shut and lock the door and call 911.  

Actually, one time I woke in the night when the bedroom door was open.  I saw a shadow on it that didn't make sense.  There shouldn't be any light coming from that direction.  Then I heard a noise.  The house itself was dark but the outside motion light had gone on.  Shadow again.  I woke my husband, pointed out the shadow to him, he peeked and saw someone trying to get in a window.  I called 911 and he grabbed a cricket bat and went quietly through the house in the dark to another window to keep an eye on the guy. (Yes, we're in the US.  Yes it was a cricket bat, not a baseball bat.  It was one of his gifts from the group he was with when we left England.  )

Police showed up pretty quick -- turns out the next door neighbor had heard something, too and called -- but the blue and red lights on the vehicles alerted him to their arrival and he ran away.  Which is unfortunately only because they didn't catch the guy.   We actually weren't worried too much about him getting in as we had security windows.  But he slashed a couple of screens doing it.   And Ed would have gone after him with the cricket bat, before the police even arrived, but could see he had some kind of knife in his hand and couldn't tell in the dark how big it was.

Another example:  we had the DC sniper here 10 years ago or so -- THAT was scary.  Even though you logically knew that the chances of you being targeted were pretty small, you also knew he was picking people by random.  One of the shooting sites was a parking garage not a half mile from the house at a Home Depot that my husband goes to at least daily. So you did get to where you'd get someplace and take a long look around before parking so as to be able to get out of the car so that there was something between you and any open area.  And then you didn't dawdle into the store.  O'course, there were some people who didn't leave their houses at all.

Anyway, point is.  I'm a wimp.  I'm not ever likely to be involved in a murder mystery, either.  And if I were, I'd listen to the authorities when they said, 'Just let us handle it'.  But, maybe that's why I enjoy reading them.   Even so, while there's a bit of leeway I'll give in consideration of they have more nerve than me, I still don't want them to be stupid about things.  Or oblivious.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Well, with a known sniper out there, it does change things.  I'm a light sleeper and I'd have probably woken before husband too.  I'd have called 911 as well.  This is Texas though so it wouldn't have been a cricket bat waiting.


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## Deni (Aug 26, 2013)

"So, my questions are:  do other folks notice more of this, do they go a little crazy when they read it and is it mainly women authors?"

I won't finish a book if the character is that stupid. Apart from the Scary Movie series where they take the mick out of stupidity, it's something that puts me off quickly. I prefer clever characters, as long as they get challenged by something out of their control at some point.


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