# THE Question Self-Publishers Should be Asking Themselves - from DBW



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Great article by Elle Lothlorien. 
Make sure you read through to the end, because the conclusion is different than what you might think.

http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2013/thing-1-balls-cookies-and-getting-lucky-ask-the-right-questions-about-self-publication/?et_mid=597601&rid=232351599


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Thanks for sharing!  Awesome article and quite true.  I've seen a ton of people ask "how" before bothering to decide "should I?"  It's a bit late for me...and for probably a lot of us here, but food for thought nevertheless.

Also on the money about how much difference one year can make.  I can attest to that one.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

It definitely didn't end where I thought it was going.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

I liked the point and she had a great tone throughout to keep the article entertaining. I've encouraged several friends to self-publish if they feel the aspiration, but I try not to sugar-coat it and tell them it's going to be such a walk in the park.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

tensen said:


> It definitely didn't end where I thought it was going.


Lol, it didn't end where I thought it was going either, but I'll tell you, it's motivated me to put a big push on writing for this year. I slacked off a little the end of last year waiting on announcements (re: the movie deal), but since that's moving slower than I imagined, it's stupid to waste my writing time.


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## jlmarten (May 9, 2012)

Definitely a surprise ending. At the rate I write, I'm not thinking less about the yacht and more about finally. hitting. publish. Kudos to you, though, Bella!


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## Dustin Metzger (Jan 1, 2013)

The answer I always give whenever this topic comes up is actually a quote from the character Jayne Cobb from _Firefly_:


> [...] percent of nothing is -- let me do the math here -- nothing into nothing, carry the nothing -- still nothing.


Self-publishing's a lot of work and, yes, most people won't have the work ethic to make it work. They won't do enough. They won't put in the hours and dedication needed to make it work.

But how is that any different than going the traditional write->agent->publisher->fans route? The way I see things, and the way I explain to my wife and parents when they ask, is that it isn't. So I only make <= $500 doing it myself once I actually publish. If that's the case... I very likely would have made $0 if I'd gone traditional. The way I see it if I can so much as buy a lunch with the proceeds from self-publishing instead of a "learn what didn't work and submit again" lesson I'll call it a success.

If my readers don't like my work that's one thing, but I'll *never* have Stephen King's railroad spike of publisher rejection letters. If I had that prospect to look forward too I'd stick to being middle management and fanfiction, I've no interest in it.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

To me, the relevant questions are: Who is your audience?  What should you do if a year later you are not on the yacht?  You don't need to quit writhing at that point; as long as Amazon offers a page rent free, your books will still remain online.  Meanwhile, you put your energy behind something else to make up for the slack in low revenue book sales.  Maybe, someday, your life will change and give you the story that will sell.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Ahh!  My big goal for 2013 is to get a minimum of four more books out.  This article was an excellent reminder of why that is crucial, and it was just plain entertaining to read, too.  Thanks, Elle L.!

And that was rather cheering to see that Salon (or whoever it was) surveyed successful self-publishers and they were making less than $500 a year.  I'm doing much better than that, and that is very encouraging!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Dustin Metzger said:


> The answer I always give whenever this topic comes up is actually a quote from the character Jayne Cobb from _Firefly_:
> Self-publishing's a lot of work and, yes, most people won't have the work ethic to make it work. They won't do enough. They won't put in the hours and dedication needed to make it work.
> 
> But how is that any different than going the traditional write->agent->publisher->fans route? The way I see things, and the way I explain to my wife and parents when they ask, is that it isn't. So I only make <= $500 doing it myself once I actually publish. If that's the case... I very likely would have made $0 if I'd gone traditional. The way I see it if I can so much as buy a lunch with the proceeds from self-publishing instead of a "learn what didn't work and submit again" lesson I'll call it a success.
> ...


I agree.

I thought the final part, that you have to work at it, is a good one, but she brings in and seems to accept that "it has to be a huge success to be a success" attitude that gets on my nerves. Since I don't agree with the assumption that all novels have to be blockbusters to be successes, I wasn't really that thrilled with the article.

But she's right about one thing. It is work and if you don't want to work you shouldn't bother.



Hudson Owen said:


> To me, the relevant questions are: Who is your audience? What should you do if a year later you are not on the yacht? You don't need to quit writhing at that point; as long as Amazon offers a page rent free, your books will still remain online. Meanwhile, you put your energy behind something else to make up for the slack in low revenue book sales. Maybe, someday, your life will change and give you the story that will sell.


I don't have to get rich or be able to afford a yacht to consider myself a success.

ETA: I mean if you do, that's not a criticism. You have a right to set our own goals, but I hate when we drag the best seller mentality from traditional publishing into self-publishing. I consider the point of self-publishing IS that we don't have to be best-sellers to be successful.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I agree, JRTomlin.  Though I think with his comment about not being on the yacht, he was just referencing the fortune cookie from the article.  

I don't like the mindset that you have to become a household name in order to be a successful self-publisher.  To me, the measure of success has always been making enough money to support myself by writing full-time.  After a lifetime of being super-poor, I expect to be able to live in reasonable comfort and financial security, but being wealthy isn't a part of my long-term plan.  (I wouldn't complain, but it's not how I'll measure my success.)  Oh, and I expect to one day win some awards with my writing, but indie authors haven't yet managed to drive the wedge into the major awards.  Our time is coming, though.

It's good for everybody to have a clear idea of what his or her idea of success means.  What does that picture look like, for you?  That's the only reasonable way to gauge your success -- not by comparing to how well Authors X, Y, and Z are doing.  Hell, you can't bank on anything by going with traditional publishers, either.  I know plenty of writers who have sold several books to traditional publishers and who've never gotten off the midlist.  They are not household names, either.  They either keep a day job or their spouse's income allows them to write full-time, because the money they earn from their writing isn't enough to support even themselves alone, to say nothing of a family.  I think that is the reality for most writers, whether indie or not.  That a writer must produce a large volume of high-quality work in order to turn it into a solid career...that was true back when traditional publishing was the only game in town.  It's just as true, maybe more true, now that anybody can (hypothetically) self-publish and reach readers.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Hudson Owen said:


> To me, the relevant questions are: Who is your audience? What should you do if a year later you are not on the yacht? You don't need to quit writhing at that point; as long as Amazon offers a page rent free, your books will still remain online. Meanwhile, you put your energy behind something else to make up for the slack in low revenue book sales. Maybe, someday, your life will change and give you the story that will sell.


For those that don't know, Bella Andre comes to the Writers' Cafe, and she was writing for years traditionally (Elllora's Cave?, and others) before she started self publishing. She was one of Amazon's first self-published million dollar earners, etc. And that all would have been before the yacht fortune cookie. 
She keeps writing, sticks to her schedule, and is building a large fan base. Work and striving to be a better writer can breed all kinds of success. Of course, we hold the Outliers up as examples, but we know there are tons of self-publishers making an extra 5k to 50K a year that will never grab the notice of many people outside their fan base. THIS IS SUCCESS. They've just earned as much as they would have from most publishing houses, but the beauty is instead of the book being pulled off the shelves, or not promoted at all, they can repeat that the next year.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

> Bella described the grueling schedule that allowed her to publish a book about every three months. She offered strategies and suggestions, illustrating specific points with examples.


If you want it, you have to work for it. Period.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> For those that don't know, Bella Andre comes to the Writers' Cafe, and she was writing for years traditionally (Elllora's Cave?, and others) before she started self publishing. She was one of Amazon's first self-published million dollar earners, etc. And that all would have been before the yacht fortune cookie.
> She keeps writing, sticks to her schedule, and is building a large fan base. Work and striving to be a better writer can breed all kinds of success. Of course, we hold the Outliers up as examples, but we know there are tons of self-publishers making an extra 5k to 50K a year that will never grab the notice of many people outside their fan base. THIS IS SUCCESS. They've just earned as much as they would have from most publishing houses, but the beauty is instead of the book being pulled off the shelves, or not promoted at all, they can repeat that the next year.


Exactly. Most of us will never make millions. That doesn't mean we aren't a success.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

JanneCO said:


> If you want it, you have to work for it. Period.


Aw, screw that. I want the EASY millions.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> For those that don't know, Bella Andre comes to the Writers' Cafe, and she was writing for years traditionally (Elllora's Cave?, and others) before she started self publishing. She was one of Amazon's first self-published million dollar earners, etc. And that all would have been before the yacht fortune cookie.
> She keeps writing, sticks to her schedule, and is building a large fan base. Work and striving to be a better writer can breed all kinds of success. Of course, we hold the Outliers up as examples, but we know there are tons of self-publishers making an extra 5k to 50K a year that will never grab the notice of many people outside their fan base. THIS IS SUCCESS. They've just earned as much as they would have from most publishing houses, but the beauty is instead of the book being pulled off the shelves, or not promoted at all, they can repeat that the next year.


I know it's unofficial policy never to offer a discouraging word when someone asks what should I do after years of struggle and sales in dribbles. My point is, you need Plan B. You can say, heroically, failure is not an option. The fact is, many more writers don't own the yacht or ever ride aboard it. If you're drowning, you need help. And that might include taking two steps back from writing and reassessing your goals and strengths before continuing on the path you've been on. You don't want to drown, period, if you've ever watched a swimmer go under.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Aw, screw that. I want the EASY millions.


You'd be surprised at how many people think making millions _is_ easy.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Hudson Owen said:


> My point is, you need Plan B. You can say, heroically, failure is not an option. The fact is, many more writers don't own the yacht or ever ride aboard it. If you're drowning, you need help.


Yes, but the point for many of us is that we have no desire to own or even ride on a yacht. That doesn't equate to drowning but to different desires. Sure I have a Plan B if my books every stop selling at the level I need, which is laughably short of a yacht, but my Plan B is safely filed away, and unless things change drastically in the next few years, will stay there.

I agree with JR, Libby, and Lisa. It's too bad the media ignores those of us in the middle, but if you remember Hugh Howey's thread on just that subject, he gathered stories from many of us making as I remember more than $500 a month for at least a year, and he couldn't interest anyone in writing about us. Stories of yacht-buying success or depressing lack of success are interesting. Those of us in the middle aren't.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

ellenoc said:


> Stories of yacht-buying success or depressing lack of success are interesting. Those of us in the middle aren't.


Yes, people making minimum wage don't want to read about authors making minimum wage.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I've already quit twice this week. I removed "meltdowns" from my chart due to embarrassment.

Sometimes I feel like the secret to self-publishing is doing the stuff you don't want to do.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Dalya said:


> Sometimes I feel like the secret to self-publishing is doing the stuff you don't want to do.


Taxes? I have to. The wife would kill me if I didn't.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Caitie Quinn said:


> This is why I count my money in pennies.
> 
> The line about Bella's schedule struck me also. I was curious of she's blogged/discussed it anywhere?


I've seen Bella post that she writes 20 pages every day in addition to everything thing else. That's new words. Plus editing and covers. She designs her own.

It's a crazy amount of work.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

tensen said:


> Yes, people making minimum wage don't want to read about authors making minimum wage.


So you are saying there is NOTHING between yacht buying and minimum wage.

Well, I am here to inform you there is.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Hudson Owen said:


> I know it's unofficial policy never to offer a discouraging word when someone asks what should I do after years of struggle and sales in dribbles. My point is, you need Plan B. You can say, heroically, failure is not an option. The fact is, many more writers don't own the yacht or ever ride aboard it. If you're drowning, you need help. And that might include taking two steps back from writing and reassessing your goals and strengths before continuing on the path you've been on. You don't want to drown, period, if you've ever watched a swimmer go under.


*No one ever suggested writing should be plan A to make a living if you're not making enough to pay your bills.* Most successful writers don't *ever* use their writing as Plan A. Matter of fact, you shouldn't, until you've banked enough to live off the interest, or if you like to live on the edge, at least a year or two's worth of living expenses.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> *No one ever suggested writing should be plan A to make a living.* Most successful writers don't *ever* use their writing as Plan A. Matter of fact, you shouldn't, until you've banked enough to live off the interest, or if you like to live on the edge, at least a year or two's worth of living expenses.


Who are these "most successful" people? I know plenty of people who make a living writing. In fact, right now, it's in my best interest to not doing anything but write. I can't give this my all if I'm committed else where. Do I have a plan B? Yep. But no job is secure these days.

Edited to add: I also know plenty of people who are writers on the side. This isn't a one size fits all equation.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> *No one ever suggested writing should be plan A to make a living.* Most successful writers don't *ever* use their writing as Plan A. Matter of fact, you shouldn't, until you've banked enough to live off the interest, or if you like to live on the edge, at least a year or two's worth of living expenses.


I disagree--strongly. You certainly don't have to have enough to live off the interest. In fact, I consider that an absurd goal. You should have enough so that if you have a bad few months you're not going to end up going hungry or on the street, but that certainly doesn't require a million put in the bank so you can live off the interest.

There are a fair few of us here who write full-time and I doubt that many of us have a million socked away so we can live off the interest.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> Who are these "most successful" people? I know plenty of people who make a living writing. In fact, right now, it's in my best interest to not doing anything but write. I can't give this my all if I'm committed else where. Do I have a plan B? Yep. But no job is secure these days.
> 
> Edited to add: I also know plenty of people who are writers on the side. This isn't a one size fits all equation.


Deanna & JRTomlin - my response was_ in response to Hudson's post where he indicates he's making almost nothing_. If you're not making a living at it, why would you have it as your plan A? Laura Lippman worked as a reporter at the Baltimore Sun until she had over seven successful books out. Tolkien worked as a university professor, the list could go on and on and on.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> But no job is secure these days.


Yeah, with business as slow as it is these days, there are a lot of us who are terrified that writing will become plan A whether we like it or not.


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## SRecht (Oct 16, 2012)

Every highly successful person I have ever met had two things in common:  they worked harder than everyone around them, and to a person, they said their success had a lot to do with luck.  But most of the time, the hard work was what made them "lucky."  An author doesn't just wake up one day with multiple titles for sale and thousands of followers.  The choice is yours--do you want to do this as a hobby or do you want to do this as your vehicle to put food on the table.  You want to make a career of it--outwork everyone else.  But the wild card is that no matter what, the writing has to be good.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Deanna & JRTomlin - my response was_ in response to Hudson's post where he indicates he's making almost nothing_. If you're not making a living at it, why would you have it as your plan A? Laura Lippman worked as a reporter at the Baltimore Sun until she had over seven successful books out. Tolkien worked as a university professor, the list could go on and on and on.


Gotcha.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

"A survey by Taelist.com revealed that out of a sampling of 1,000 "successful" self-published authors, a majority were earning less than $500 a year."

That makes me _wildly _successful. 

Back to writing!


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> I've seen Bella post that she writes 20 pages every day in addition to everything thing else. That's new words. Plus editing and covers. She designs her own. It's a crazy amount of work.





LisaGraceBooks said:


> For those that don't know, Bella Andre comes to the Writers' Cafe, and she was writing for years traditionally (Elllora's Cave?, and others) before she started self publishing. She was one of Amazon's first self-published million dollar earners, etc. And that all would have been before the yacht fortune cookie. She keeps writing, sticks to her schedule, and is building a large fan base. Work and striving to be a better writer can breed all kinds of success. Of course, we hold the Outliers up as examples, but we know there are tons of self-publishers making an extra 5k to 50K a year that will never grab the notice of many people outside their fan base. THIS IS SUCCESS. They've just earned as much as they would have from most publishing houses, but the beauty is instead of the book being pulled off the shelves, or not promoted at all, they can repeat that the next year.


The irony of finding this thread here is that I'm reading kindle boards posts when I should be getting my 25 pages written for the day!  Thanks Lisa and Deanna for so perfectly describing what my work days (are there any other kind?!) look like.

I have to say, one of my favorite things about self-publishing is that with enough hard work and focus and research, I believe most authors can "beat" a traditional publishing deal with their (hopefully great!) books. Simply because we are always our own best advocates. And because the publishing business really is changing and adapting so quickly, authors that would have signed a $10k deal 2 years ago are now, in many cases, able to negotiate really amazing deals with NY pubs if that's the direction they decide to go in, based on their self-pub success.

I'll never forget what it felt like to see that I had earned $250 my first month of self-publishing back in 2010. It was one of the greatest moments I've ever had, because it meant people *did* want to read my books. And then later, I heard a million times over that "no publisher will ever do a print only deal", but as soon as I saw my Sullivan ebook #s and $s start to add up in early 2012, I *knew* one was coming...because the #s and $s couldn't be ignored. And, interestingly, Harlequin wasn't the only publisher in the ballgame - although I'm very, very glad that they won the English language print rights to my Sullivans because they know contemporary romance better than anyone, and their print distribution throughout the world is amazing.

All of which is to say, as far as I'm concerned, the sky's the freaking limit. And there's never been a better time to be a writer!

Okay, back to those 25 pages now....

 Bella


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

bellaandre said:


> The irony of finding this thread here is that I'm reading kindle boards posts when I should be getting my 25 pages written for the day!  Thanks Lisa and Deanna for so perfectly describing what my work days (are there any other kind?!) look like.
> 
> I have to say, one of my favorite things about self-publishing is that with enough hard work and focus and research, I believe most authors can "beat" a traditional publishing deal with their (hopefully great!) books. Simply because we are always our own best advocates. And because the publishing business really is changing and adapting so quickly, authors that would have signed a $10k deal 2 years ago are now, in many cases, able to negotiate really amazing deals with NY pubs if that's the direction they decide to go in, based on their self-pub success.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bella for chiming in. You go girl!


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## Matthew Stewart (Jan 7, 2011)

T.L. Haddix said:


> This, too.
> 
> We work very hard (about 80 hours a week, each), and we have a nice house in a nice neighborhood. Before that, we lived in a double-wide trailer. I've had more appliances die on me since we moved into the new house...as a result, we've had a lot of service techs out for this repair or that one. A good number of them, probably 80%, get an attitude when they see our house. (Okay, what's the point here, you're thinking. Bear with me.) One even made snide remarks when he thought I couldn't hear him, remarks about how my 8-year-old dryer was brand new and there was nothing wrong with it, I just wanted a new one. Because you know, I live in a nice house, and I'm a bored housewife (that part was implied, strongly.) Uh, no. Actually, the old dryer d*mn near burned the house down that morning. Got so hot you could fry an egg on it. Point is, he sees the house, and like so many other people, starts getting this attitude about how easy my husband and I must have it to live here. Jealous because he doesn't have that. And we get that over and over again. (The house really isn't that nice, in case you're wondering. No pool, pool boy, or gardener. Just a house.)
> 
> ...


This sounds nice, and hard work *is* important, but there exists two things for which you do not seem to account. One, that there are lots of people who work as hard or harder than you who don't have things shake out. Two, that everyone has their own individual limitations as to what they are physically capable of doing, and shouldn't be punished for that either. That people would make snide remarks or look at you cross because of your house is ridiculous, but so too is the notion that anyone who simply works fewer hours than you doesn't work as hard.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

SRecht said:


> Every highly successful person I have ever met had two things in common: they worked harder than everyone around them, and to a person, they said their success had a lot to do with luck. But most of the time, the hard work was what made them "lucky." An author doesn't just wake up one day with multiple titles for sale and thousands of followers. The choice is yours--do you want to do this as a hobby or do you want to do this as your vehicle to put food on the table. You want to make a career of it--outwork everyone else. But the wild card is that no matter what, the writing has to be good.


I took a beginner's pottery class a few years back. We got unlimited studio time, so I came in and practiced before the second class. The other students were p*ssed off I was getting the hang of it better than them. I kept telling them I'd been in several times, throwing clay, and they just shook their heads and pouted about how bad they sucked. They enjoyed bonding together over this. And I guess, for some of them, that was all they wanted on a Tuesday night. They didn't care about mastery. 

ETA: What? Show you some of my pottery? Oh, okay.










This is on-topic: Of the people who sign up for an 8-week pottery class, maybe half of them make it to the end. The rest find out that it is "hard" and "not what they expected." (i.e. no Ghosting)


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Deanna & JRTomlin - my response was_ in response to Hudson's post where he indicates he's making almost nothing_. If you're not making a living at it, why would you have it as your plan A? Laura Lippman worked as a reporter at the Baltimore Sun until she had over seven successful books out. Tolkien worked as a university professor, the list could go on and on and on.


I don't know that Tolkien wanted to write full time. But if someone does then it makes sense to have a Plan A to achieve that.

It IS achievable for many of us.

ETA: It does take hard work, but planning for that hard work, if it is really what you want, makes sense. I don't see why you are criticizing people for planning and working for what can be an achievable goal.


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## DCBourone (Sep 10, 2012)

Attending my future bruise--

Hard work not enough.
Some luck required.
Perhaps a taste for a certain genre.
A job lost, no fault, and a pulse of effort.
At the right time.
A fortunate accident.
Stephen King, who almost quit.
And his persistent and believing wife...
Could go on.
Dalya.
I know a very recognized ceramicist 'very well.'
That pot...not so bad.  A very difficult media/medium.

Sincerely,

Fan of Dalya


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## horse_girl (Apr 9, 2010)

Reading through this thread, I think I can summarize what I've always believed--You can make anything happen if you apply yourself. Yes, there are outside forces that interfere, but you have to work even harder to overcome them. Nothing happens in life without working for it and no path is perfectly straight and smooth. The bumps along the way teach us the best lessons and make us stronger so that we can appreciate success--reaching our goals--_when _they happen.

If you believe you can do it, you will, because you'll find a way to make it happen if you really want it.

/lecture


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

I really think the question is, "Why not?"

What better thing can you do with your life than chase a dream? You've only got one shot on this planet, and I would much rather spend my finite time trying to do what I want, and failing, than deciding it's not worth the effort because chances of failure are so high. Most folks think they have a book in them. Many people want to be writers. Why not give it a try?

At worst, you've accomplished publishing a book or two. Even if they don't make much (any?) money, "I've published a book" is still more than most people can say. And at best, you might become Bella Andre.  But there are a lot of legit, in-between career places that are totally awesome to be in, too. You don't have to go big or go home, is what I'm saying.


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## IB (Jan 31, 2012)

bellaandre said:


> The irony of finding this thread here is that I'm reading kindle boards posts when I should be getting my 25 pages written for the day!  Thanks Lisa and Deanna for so perfectly describing what my work days (are there any other kind?!) look like.
> 
> I have to say, one of my favorite things about self-publishing is that with enough hard work and focus and research, I believe most authors can "beat" a traditional publishing deal with their (hopefully great!) books. Simply because we are always our own best advocates. And because the publishing business really is changing and adapting so quickly, authors that would have signed a $10k deal 2 years ago are now, in many cases, able to negotiate really amazing deals with NY pubs if that's the direction they decide to go in, based on their self-pub success.
> 
> ...


Bella, Thanks for joining the conversation. I make my living as a screenwriter and I can't tell you how many times I'm approached by a screenwriter who's been hauling around his one screenplay for five years. I'm polite and I listen, but I try to tell him or her that quantity begets quality. To be a writer, you need to write. A lot. And when I teach my class at USC, if that's the only thing I can get across to my students, then I consider the class a success!


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Without hard work, you will not make it in this business, I agree with that statement.  That being said, if you can't write well, you can work 80 hours a week and you still aren't going to be successful.  Let's not forget that this isn't just about blood, sweat, and tears.  It's about storytelling skill too, and the imagination to come up with original material.  Some people want to write really badly, but they just can't do it well enough, even after attending writing workshops and everything else.  I think storytellers are born good storytellers, to some degree.  Yes, we can all hone our skills and learn the craft, become not just good, but brilliant; but it takes some sort of natural talent to take it to the level you need to be to make a good living at this.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

smreine said:


> I really think the question is, "Why not?"
> 
> What better thing can you do with your life than chase a dream? You've only got one shot on this planet, and I would much rather spend my finite time trying to do what I want, and failing, than deciding it's not worth the effort because chances of failure are so high. Most folks think they have a book in them. Many people want to be writers. Why not give it a try?
> 
> At worst, you've accomplished publishing a book or two. Even if they don't make much (any?) money, "I've published a book" is still more than most people can say. And at best, you might become Bella Andre.  But there are a lot of legit, in-between career places that are totally awesome to be in, too. You don't have to go big or go home, is what I'm saying.


And I 100% agree.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Interesting article, thanks for linking it. And thanks to Bella for chiming in here. Girl, your work ethic is inspiring!

I think the thing about self-publishing boils down to, if you want to do it, then do it. Where a lot of people have problems is they read about the huge successes (or some scam book) and think it's an easy road to fame and stardom. Write a book, throw it up on Amazon, and watch the money pile up. There are loads of people wanting to be actors that thought it would be easy, too -- get to Hollywood, and the industry will fall over themselves to sign them up.

So like anything else, you have to have the knowledge, the skill, the drive to make it, and a little bit of luck doesn't hurt.


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## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

I think the article is really good, what got on my nerves were the 50 shades of grey references...


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> Without hard work, you will not make it in this business, I agree with that statement. That being said, if you can't write well, you can work 80 hours a week and you still aren't going to be successful. Let's not forget that this isn't just about blood, sweat, and tears. It's about storytelling skill too, and the imagination to come up with original material. Some people want to write really badly, but they just can't do it well enough, even after attending writing workshops and everything else. I think storytellers are born good storytellers, to some degree. Yes, we can all hone our skills and learn the craft, become not just good, but brilliant; but it takes some sort of natural talent to take it to the level you need to be to make a good living at this.


Oh, great. Way to bring me down, Elle. There I was, riding the cloud, and you hand me the anvil...


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> Without hard work, you will not make it in this business, I agree with that statement. That being said, if you can't write well, you can work 80 hours a week and you still aren't going to be successful. Let's not forget that this isn't just about blood, sweat, and tears. It's about storytelling skill too, and the imagination to come up with original material. Some people want to write really badly, but they just can't do it well enough, even after attending writing workshops and everything else. * I think storytellers are born good storytellers, to some degree.* Yes, we can all hone our skills and learn the craft, become not just good, but brilliant; but it takes some sort of natural talent to take it to the level you need to be to make a good living at this.


I think there might be an answer to this that goes unseen, based on my experience and what I've read from author bios/interviews, and it's based off the 10,000 hour rule Malcolm Gladwell talks about in Outliers. Some folks might want to be good storytellers but don't seem to be very good at it when contrasted with someone who is considered a "natural" talent, but there may be a huge disparity in practice time. For example, while others were playing sports, dating, etc, in high school, I was sitting at home, in front of a computer, writing, because that seemed more fun to me (don't you dare retroactively ruin my adolescence by suggesting I might have been deceiving myself). I easily put in thousands of hours of practice, started countless novels before I actually ended up writing the first one I published.

On the other hand you might have someone who had a life in high school and college (*cries quietly*) and has a difficult time constructing a sentence now, causing their books to look more like an outline than a narrative. It's not that I have more talent than them (or anyone, really) it's that I spent my tender formative years writing stories and constructing narratives while they were playing sports and getting l**d. I got my 10,000 hours in, they still have a lot to go. As T.L. says, if someone works 80 hours a week at their craft for years at a time, I think they can become a more effective storyteller, but that's just my theory. I would say it takes focused practice, where you become aware of your weaknesses and try to correct, but that's just my opinion. Hard work will win out eventually, I think.



C.C. Kelly said:


> Hard work isn't enough. People are different,. We all have different intelligence and different physical abilities and different talents. We also have different backgrounds. The kids growing up on the South side of Chicago don't have the same opportunities that the kids of Chicago's affluent northern suburbs have. It's a fact.


Restricting this to the topic of writing rather than a broad discussion on the entire capitalist system, it seems like almost anyone can get a cheap computer or a pad of paper and work on their craft. *shrugs* This isn't ice hockey, which requires a ridiculous amount of cost. If you have some capability you can practice your writing, and economic disadvantage counts for less here than it might in other arenas. Writing might be the great level playing field in that regard, especially now that entry to publishing is so low in cost. You can basically become a publishing company with nothing other than yourself, an internet connection and the knowledge of how to format your books to e-reader and paperback.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

So what is this 'twist' at the end of the article that people were saying? I'm not sure I understood the reference when I read it (if there was one)


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> I liked the article as well and in response to some of the comments here, let me preface my statements with this: One of the most wonderful aspects of life and arguably what makes it worth living is dreams. Not all dreams are about money or self actualization, sometimes they are altruistic or family oriented. We must be careful when painting with too large a brush.
> 
> I don't think dreams are measured by the accumulation of material possessions. They are something more than that and working toward them is a journey and often the journey itself can be as rewarding as the realization of the dream.
> 
> ...


This is a great point. Some people want to just write one book, just to say they did it. When I do public appearances, I run into older people who want to write their memoirs for future generations, so those memories are not lost, like tears in rain. (Yes, I love Bladerunner.)

My deep yearning wasn't money, (My hubby and I made enough from previous careers and investments that we're comfortable, and live in house on the water, which was always my childhood dream) but to be taken seriously as a writer by readers, and now I've accomplished that.

At this point, I get to write for the pure joy of producing and finishing new works. Sure, I'd like to permanently retire my husband, but he is having a lot of fun from all the offshoot things that are happening from my writing career. 
It's become a fun direction to take our life in and it is okay to write just for fun, and still have big dreams that may or may not occur.


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

First off: Thanks Bella for chiming in. You sure did light a fire under my bottom!

Second: I think, in conversations like this, it's important to remember we all have different capabilities and responsibilities. It's easy for people to look at someone's sig line see only a few books and say: Hey, you're just not putting out enough stuff. You need to work harder and publish more.

Some people, 1 book a year is working at full capacity and already stealing time from places they should be focused on. Sure, for others it's that they don't feel the need/drive to write more. BUT, just like you don't really know what goes on in a marriage, you don't really know what goes on in an office.

Except for Bella's -- HOLY COW, GIRL!

I'm just saying, judgement is easier than writing.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

RM Prioleau said:


> So what is this 'twist' at the end of the article that people were saying? I'm not sure I understood the reference when I read it (if there was one)


The twist is that since it asks whether you should self-pub, you think the answer's gonna be that some people shouldn't self-pub, but the answer turns out to be be "What are you waiting for?" Or at least, that's how I understand it. But then, my reading comprehension isn't all that good sometimes when I'm blowing through these articles.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

RobertJCrane said:


> I think there might be an answer to this that goes unseen, based on my experience and what I've read from author bios/interviews, and it's based off the 10,000 hour rule Malcolm Gladwell talks about in Outliers. Some folks might want to be good storytellers but don't seem to be very good at it when contrasted with someone who is considered a "natural" talent, but there may be a huge disparity in practice time. For example, while others were playing sports, dating, etc, in high school, I was sitting at home, in front of a computer, writing, because that seemed more fun to me (don't you dare retroactively ruin my adolescence by suggesting I might have been deceiving myself). I easily put in thousands of hours of practice, started countless novels before I actually ended up writing the first one I published.
> 
> On the other hand you might have someone who had a life in high school and college (*cries quietly*) and has a difficult time constructing a sentence now, causing their books to look more like an outline than a narrative. It's not that I have more talent than them (or anyone, really) it's that I spent my tender formative years writing stories and constructing narratives while they were playing sports and getting l**d. I got my 10,000 hours in, they still have a lot to go. As T.L. says, if someone works 80 hours a week at their craft for years at a time, I think they can become a more effective storyteller, but that's just my theory. I would say it takes focused practice, where you become aware of your weaknesses and try to correct, but that's just my opinion. Hard work will win out eventually, I think.
> 
> Restricting this to the topic of writing rather than a broad discussion on the entire capitalist system, it seems like almost anyone can get a cheap computer or a pad of paper and work on their craft. *shrugs* This isn't ice hockey, which requires a ridiculous amount of cost. If you have some capability you can practice your writing, and economic disadvantage counts for less here than it might in other arenas. Writing might be the great level playing field in that regard, especially now that entry to publishing is so low in cost. You can basically become a publishing company with nothing other than yourself, an internet connection and the knowledge of how to format your books to e-reader and paperback.


Agreed. While some may have a natural aptitude towards writing and language, they are muscles that can be exercised. And as far as imagination, well, non-fiction or memoir writers don't need that, they just have to perceive a need and fill it. More non-fiction books are bought than fiction, so this can be a very lucrative path to your personal definition of success.

I think Malcolm's book is an excellent showcase of how working to improve (for 10,000 hours) can provide fantastic results.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> It's my opinion that we are driven in our formative years by those inherent talents. "Look, little Johnny draws so well." And no one is surprised when Johnny grows up to be a professional artist. Or the athletes that work so hard. That's why you were probably writing instead of playing sports. When I got really into painting, I dropped sports to focus on art. I was good at sports, but art was where I wanted to spend my time.


I spent my formative years dreaming up ways to get girls to like me. Still graduated high school a virgin. Just sayin', sometimes the things we spend out time on aren't our forte in the end.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Imagination cannot be exercised. For example, you can teach design in college, but that doesn't make graduates good designers. Imagination, cognitive reasoning and general creativity cannot, imho, be taught. You have it or you don't. Education and practice only enhances what is already there. You can't exercise a muscle you don't have. And even with non-fiction, you have to organize the subject in a creative and compelling manner.


You don't need imagination to be a technical or memoir writer. Most books published are non-fiction. There are very successful writers without any imagination, and that's fine. All they need to do is see a perceived need and fill it. We have authors here who do "how to" books, and all sorts of other books and manuals that may feel they are not imaginative. It doesn't make them any less a writer.

Aa far as writing fiction novels, absolutely.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

I have written for my previous careers, and for myself, since I was a child.  I'm now writing to publish.  I'm still honing skills, but am so thankful I had really tough English teachers in the early 60s.  Opportunity is what you make of it.  My hubby is 5'7"...he'd never be a basketball star.  He wasn't a very good student...no chance of a scholarship for education his family's poverty couldn't afford.  He was often told by his own father that he'd never amount to much.  By sheer chance, a job he took to try to save some money to 'do something' with his life 'hooked him'.  He made up his mind to work harder than his peers and learn everything he could along the way.  He didn't make it to the ranks of the much maligned 1%'ers, but he got close enough.  Because he worked the 70 to 80 hours a week right up to the day he retired, we live a comfortable life.  No, it's not the 'lifestyles of the rich and famous' but we're very comfortable.  If you have writing ability, great, but that's not enough.  Are you willing to put out the effort to write a sufficient quantity AND continue to learn along the way?  I don't know how good my writing skills are, but I know I can, and will, make them better.  Will I commit the time and effort to produce sufficient quantity?  In all honesty, of this I'm not certain.  Some days I think yes, other days I'm content with a book or two a year.  Only time will tell.  The first step is less time on KB.  This is a good place, but it's too easy to linger too long.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## David Kazzie (Sep 16, 2010)

First of all, I think it's pointless to try to throw around the word "imagination" like it's this thing you can quantify. I would daresay every single person who has ever lived has had some measure of imagination about something. For example, designing a bridge requires a sh*t-ton of imagination. Figuring out how to properly staff a crowded restaurant requires imagination. The first person to make cheese. And I think it's insulting to nonfiction writers to say that they just fill a need and wrote their books the way a machine assembled an iPad. 

I think anyone can become more imaginative the longer they work on something, whether it's storytelling, bridge-building, or cheese-making. Fiction writers didn't corner the market on imagination.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Dalya said:


> Sometimes I feel like the secret to self-publishing is doing the stuff you don't want to do.


That's the secret to life


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Didn't I see you post something about a receptionist and a conference room on a different thread?


Yeah, but that wasn't a grand strategy. The receptionist was a nyphomaniac (of slut, depending on whether it's a guy's perspective or a chick's), she didn't do it because of anything I did, she did it because she HAD to.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

A quick comment about the talent / luck vs. work issue.

One can work 80 hours a week and without talent or ambition it will get you nowhere.  Putting 40 hours a week at Burger King and another 40 at McDonald's is never going to make you a success, that is true.

However - you can be the most talented, luckiest person in the entire world and if you don't put in the work you will still never get anywhere.  Not ever.  Nothing is going to land in your lap, nobody is going to hand you anything.

You must have the talent and drive to accomplish a goal, and then you must make a plan.  Once you've done that, you have to put in the work.  There's no shortcut around that.  Life doesn't come with an Easy button.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Arkali said:


> A quick comment about the talent / luck vs. work issue.
> 
> One can work 80 hours a week and without talent or ambition it will get you nowhere. Putting 40 hours a week at Burger King and another 40 at McDonald's is never going to make you a success, that is true.
> 
> ...


  Business seminar motivational speech 101.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Business seminar motivational speech 101.


True, nonetheless.

If you never write the books and never hit publish, you sure as heck will never get the sales.


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## williamvw (Mar 12, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> You certainly don't have to have enough to live off the interest.


Umm, it's 2013. What is this thing you call "living off of interest"?


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## IB (Jan 31, 2012)

williamvw said:


> Umm, it's 2013. What is this thing you call "living off of interest"?


Laugh of the Day!


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

williamvw said:


> Umm, it's 2013. What is this thing you call "living off of interest"?


Ouch. Yeah. But, just think how bad it's gonna get when the interest rates DO rise. Double ouch.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Dustin Metzger said:


> If my readers don't like my work that's one thing, but I'll *never* have Stephen King's railroad spike of publisher rejection letters. If I had that prospect to look forward too I'd stick to being middle management and fanfiction, I've no interest in it.


Over a thousand rejections earned by this writer, at least, and I can tell you, there's no glory, no battle scar you can point to with pride. Every one of them hurt as much as a one star review.


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## NicWilson (Apr 16, 2011)

Wow. Two hours ago, I was happy to have written for five hours before going in to work. Now, I think I may have to write more when I'm back at home. 25 pages a day?!  New goal.


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## NicWilson (Apr 16, 2011)

Side note: thanks, again, for posting that link. I've gotten derailed reading all the other posts on the site. It's procrastination-worthy, and motivating!


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## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

On the subject of talent / work: 

For many years, I was a member of an online workshop for speculative fiction. I critiqued quite a few stories by fellow writers where I thought, "Man, this guy/gal can't write his / her way out of a paper bag! How can I start my critique off positively?" 

And a few years down the line, a couple of those writers started showing up in Asimov's and F&SF and even got contracts with Tor. 

There were also writers I loved to read, snatched their stories up because their words sang, and I wrote my critiques with a joyous heart. 

And a few years down the line, a couple of those writers started showing up in Asimov's and F&SF and even got contracts with Tor. 

But the thing is, the ones with the beautiful words and great stories weren't that much more successful than those I initially thought had little to no talent. I encountered their writing at different stages in their apprenticeship, that's all. Sure, some people have an ear for language or a talent for story, just like some people have an ear for song. Family legend has it that I was harmonizing with my mother's singing when I was four years old. But my sister is the one who studied music and ended up an opera singer. 

The way I see it, hard work / determination / stubbornness / whatever you want to call it, that's way more important than any talents we might or might not be born with. I'm not denying that there is such a thing as talent or lack of same. Some people are tone deaf, and some people will never learn to write themselves out of a paper bag. 

But for the rest of us, most things can be learned. It might take some longer than others, but if you put in the pages. or the hours, or the years, I think you can eventually master the art you set out to learn. 

But mastery does not necessarily lead to success. And then luck enters the picture ...


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## kurzon (Feb 26, 2011)

Meh.  One of the things I like about self-publishing is that you can write at your own pace, put your book up when you're truly satisfied with it, and then go on and have fun writing whatever you feel like next.  You don't _have_ to put out multiple books a year.  You can be a success with a single novel.  You can sell books without much in the way of marketing.

Multiple books per year and scads of marketing grind is likely to increase your chances of income, but it's not a guarantee of it, any more than having only one book and no marketing grind means you will fail.  If you put your book(s) out there, and you enjoy writing, then self-publishing is a very nice place to be.

A heck of a lot more income than you get on your hard drive.  The bonus of fan feedback.  Occasional other pats on the back.  If nothing else, a tangible book you can have sitting on your shelf which is that story you wrote and enjoyed.

Once you've got your expectations in perspective, the true question, imho, is why the hell _shouldn't_ you self-publish?


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## kurzon (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm not a "drop the day job" seller, but truly, I'd rather keep the day job and write at a pace that I enjoy. That's the choice that works for me, just as other people will find other options better for them. I'm moderately successful, have repeat fans, people who say the books are good. Heck, I'm a finalist in this year's Cybils (http://www.cybils.com/).

The thing I like best about self-publishing is it took the negativity of submission away from writing and let me focus on the fun. There's no compelling reason not to do it. It doesn't have to be some grind of work and massive output. Why would I turn something which is a joy to me into nose to the grindstone work? Every writer is different, has different goals, different interpretations of what success means. And unless you start out with only one mandatory type of success, a person who loves to write is going to get more out of self-publishing than they put in.


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## BenEBrewer (Nov 5, 2012)

My success initially was measured by what I wanted...

I had always dreamed of having my debut novel, a work that meant so much, in print. But I was never really thinking about money as way of success - my dream was to hold my book, *my* book in my hands and say - I did that!

I succeeded in having my debut novel printed by my own publishing company and I felt proud to have challenged myself so far to be able to achieve my dream, no matter what anyone else thought - I had succeeded!

...and then I found Kindle and saw that everyone was doing it and the dreams changed as do people and now I look forward to more measured and realistic successes over the next year or so.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I made this chart in August, and I still stand by it. Of course, it's per-book, not about an entire career/big picture.

**I've seen some really UGGOO covers in the Top 100 lately, so the cover may not have to be "attractive" but it must convey genre.


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

The article mentioned Bella's cutting edge marketing plan, but didn't go into detail. Anyone know specifically what it is?


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Dalya said:


> I made this chart in August, and I still stand by it. Of course, it's per-book, not about an entire career/big picture.
> 
> **I've seen some really UGGOO covers in the Top 100 lately, so the cover may not have to be "attractive" but it must convey genre.


That's a perfect pie chart to describe the 1% that isn't crazy luck.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> That's a perfect pie chart to describe the 1% that isn't crazy luck.


Heh. This. But I think I'l raise you 5%. *g*

OTOH, as has been pointed out, having the books out there to be found is a large part of the luck.


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## IB (Jan 31, 2012)

RuthNestvold said:


> Heh. This. But I think I'l raise you 5%. *g*
> 
> OTOH, as has been pointed out, having the books out there to be found is a large part of the luck.


Luck vs Talent. I spend a lot of pages (probably too many!) in "Under An Orange Sun" discussing this when it comes to success in Hollywood. I'm guessing it applies to publishing, too. My favorite part of the debate is the turf staked out by the producer of one of the most successful TV series of the 80s.

I met him during the Writers' Strike and he graciously allowed me to write about what he said. (I ended up changing all the Industry names, anyway, because I had to write as truthfully as I could!)

I don't want to give away my conclusion when it comes to luck vs talent, but I'll say this. With every passing day since I published the book, I'm convince that he was right and the other producers whom I mentioned were wrong.


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