# Speculation about Kobo and KU



## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Kobo has been setting up a partnership with Walmart this year to sell their ereaders and sell ebooks on the Walmart website in the US.  What I'm wondering is whether they're going to take the next step and set up a KU-style borrowing program in the US.  Kobo has done this in Belgium and the Netherlands for over a year now, and hasn't said much about that program except that it seems to be doing well.  They have not expanded it any further so far.  But one factor has been the capital needed to top off the program's payments to authors as the pool of subscribers continues to grow.  Kobo does not have unlimited capital.  

But Walmart has billions of dollar in cash left over even after all their expenses are taken out and they've paid their dividends, according to the financial information I've seen.  They could afford to run a KU program.  In terms of business cash flow, they're better off than Amazon is, even if their stock has a lower value.  

Walmart shoppers tend to be frugal, so a borrowing program would appeal to budget-minded shoppers. Walmart would love to grow its online sales business and knock Amazon off its sales pedestal.  All Walmart has to do is pay a KENP-type page rate that's a little higher than Amazon's, and demand exclusivity the way Amazon does, and there'd be a mass outflow of authors from KU to Walmart.  Walmart can also afford to pay people to vet the books going into their program and hire people to monitor for scam bots instead of letting algos do everything.

So do you think they'd do it?


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

Are you sure there'd be a mass outflow of authors from KU to Walmart? People insist Amazon is where the bulk of the readers are. Might it not take a while for Walmart to seize Amazon's share of readers?


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Vidya said:


> Are you sure there'd be a mass outflow of authors from KU to Walmart? People insist Amazon is where the bulk of the readers are. Might it not take a while for Walmart to seize Amazon's share of readers?


I could see authors testing it with a book or two, and if those books made more money at Walmart than they did in KU, do you think authors would stay in KU? I think they'd leave. Money would be the deciding factor. There are a lot of authors who have trouble being found in KU. If you could get visibility at Walmart without having to buy ads, that would be a big boost to a lot of authors.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

Marc Lore has stated publicly that he wants to beat Amazon. If they end up doing a subscription program, I doubt they would be exclusive. Interestingly, the other day I was in Walmart and I was helping some older couple pick out a new set of headphones for their kindle. I told them about Kobo and how Walmart was going to be partnering with them and that they could put the books they got from Kobo onto a Kindle.

If Walmart was really smart (I need to tweet this out to Lore), they would create an app that acted like Calibre, a library to hold all books. Regardless of where they came from the app would convert the files to the reader's device. So the man with a Kindle could buy a book from Kobo and wouldn't have to jump through hoops to sideload it.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Walmart and Amazon. Talk about being caught between Scylla and Charybdis.



Avis Black said:


> Walmart shoppers tend to be frugal, so a borrowing program would appeal to budget-minded shoppers. Walmart would love to grow its online sales business and knock Amazon off its sales pedestal. All Walmart has to do is pay a KENP-type page rate that's a little higher than Amazon's, and demand exclusivity the way Amazon does, and there'd be a mass outflow of authors from KU to Walmart. Walmart can also afford to pay people to vet the books going into their program and hire people to monitor for scam bots instead of letting algos do everything.


If Walmart was smart they'd skip the exclusivity requirement to one-up Amazon. It would still keep the books out of KU, but make the offer far more attractive to authors who might be leery of losing money on an untested sales channel.

The downside is that the instant they start a borrowing program it will be immediately be beset with the same kind of scamming that we've seen in KU. Only worse, because Walmart's software sucks even more than Amazon's does and they tend to be even less responsive.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

The KOBO unlimited thing requires 90 days. It's not exclusive but you can't pull the book for 90 days, which means you can't test it for a month and then retreat back to KU. I'm all for competition, but I don't foresee a subscription book model being profitable.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Only if, like Amazon, they use it as a loss-leader for toilet-paper sales, rather than a profit centre. Most other book subscription systems seem to pay a percentage of the cover price per read (so no $15 payout on a $0.99 book), *and limit the number of reads per user.*
> 
> Anyone actually trying to make money from a subscription system should be working hard to stop scammers, because the scammers are hitting the retailer in the pocket, not the other writers.


I can read a novel a day when I have the time, or several novels in a week. For free via the library. Can walmart beat that? KU certainly can't.

And I read those books on my kindle. I have to tap two buttons to do so, but it's very convenient.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Only if, like Amazon, they use it as a loss-leader for toilet-paper sales, rather than a profit centre. Most other book subscription systems seem to pay a percentage of the cover price per read (so no $15 payout on a $0.99 book), and limit the number of reads per user.
> 
> Anyone actually trying to make money from a subscription system should be working hard to stop scammers, because the scammers are hitting the retailer in the pocket, not the other writers.


Why wouldn't Walmart run it exactly the way that Amazon does KU, and for the exact same reasons? Get people in the store, gain market share, deny content to KU. Profitability irrelevant to the primary goals.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Edward M. Grant said:


> They might. But if they did, why would many writers drop out of KU to go into WU? What would the incentive be?


This is why I said they should drop exclusivity. They still deny the books to KU and encourage readers to go to Walmart.com because of the cheap subscription price. They're not in competition with B&N/Google Play/iTunes/Kobo. They can afford to ignore them. By giving authors access to a profitable subscription system while still being allowed to publish to the other channels, they'd have a big hose to drain the KU pond. Plus they could pick up a whole lot of books that aren't in KU because the authors don't want to be exclusive with Amazon. Content-wise they might very well come out way ahead of KU.

Edit: Walmart's online business sucks. It's tiny compared to everything else, even with the online grocery ordering they added a couple of years back. If they're going to compete with Amazon they have to get more customers to Walmart.com. This is why IMHO it would be smart of them to operate any subscription service as Amazon does KU - focus on taking market share away from the competition and getting people into the store. The subscription service itself doesn't need to be profitable if it's doing those things. Play Amazon's own game and beat them at it by offering better terms to the content providers. Not only do they not lose anything by it, they've got a lot to gain. There are millions of books not in KU that they could gather into their own subscription service as an incentive to readers, and end up with a much bigger pool of books than KU.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I think the problem is perception. I don't know a lot of people (read: any) who look at Walmart and think ... books! They look at Walmart and think "I need a new box fan for the window and I need it now and oh, look, there's a new video game and ... hey ... cheap flip-flops for five bucks." To compete, Walmart needs to draw in readers. I don't think they're going to have an easy time doing it.


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## Nate Hoffelder (Jun 9, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> Kobo has been setting up a partnership with Walmart this year to sell their ereaders and sell ebooks on the Walmart website in the US. What I'm wondering is whether they're going to take the next step and set up a KU-style borrowing program in the US. Kobo has done this in Belgium and the Netherlands for over a year now, and hasn't said much about that program except that it seems to be doing well. They have not expanded it any further so far. But one factor has been the capital needed to top off the program's payments to authors as the pool of subscribers continues to grow. Kobo does not have unlimited capital.
> 
> But Walmart has billions of dollar in cash left over even after all their expenses are taken out and they've paid their dividends, according to the financial information I've seen. They could afford to run a KU program. In terms of business cash flow, they're better off than Amazon is, even if their stock has a lower value.
> 
> ...


in a word, no

KU is profitable for authors because it has a lot of readers using it. Your proposed Walmart sponsored alternative has no readers and thus, hardly any money. While it would be a great opportunity for any author who has already gone wide, it will not be a good option for those already in KU.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

KelliWolfe said:


> Why wouldn't Walmart run it exactly the way that Amazon does KU, and for the exact same reasons? Get people in the store, gain market share, deny content to KU. Profitability irrelevant to the primary goals.


Okay, so you are going to laugh at this a little. Marc Lore hates Amazon and hates Bezos and hates everything they represent. Lore would run a subscription plan the complete opposite of KU just out of spite and to prove they can do it and do it better.

The e-commerce side of Walmart is really interesting to look at, and it's all because of one man's desire to crush Amazon. He doesn't even want to catch up, he wants to destroy. From what I understand they have been slowly rolling out improvements to their website and really trying to upgrade their online presence. Lore originally came from Diapers.com and then Jet.com (which is now owned by Walmart). He has the right tools in the toolbox, and he has the passion. We'll just have to see if he can make it happen.



Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think the problem is perception. I don't know a lot of people (read: any) who look at Walmart and think ... books! They look at Walmart and think "I need a new box fan for the window and I need it now and oh, look, there's a new video game and ... hey ... cheap flip-flops for five bucks." To compete, Walmart needs to draw in readers. I don't think they're going to have an easy time doing it.


Okay, so here's the interesting thing about Walmart. They were within 5 miles of 90 some percent of the US population. Surprising as it may be, Amazon might have the online market share, but that doesn't necessarily represent the US consumer population. Kobo has the infrastructure and Walmart has the means to reach a brand new audience. Imagine a display in the middle of Walmart of heavily discounted Walmart branded Kobo reading devices. And with each purchase comes a $10 Walmart branded Kobo giftcard? And look, they even have a POS computer where you can add books to your ereader without actually having to go online.

They can potentially bring a digital market to a largely physical market.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I don't think they need to make it exclusive. KU is exclusive already, so anyone using the Kobo subscription service would de facto not be in KU. They could use Amazon's exclusivity against itself, until 'zon saw a loss in market share for subscriptions, forcing them to no longer require exclusion to compete.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

RPatton said:


> Okay, so here's the interesting thing about Walmart. They were within 5 miles of 90 some percent of the US population. Surprising as it may be, Amazon might have the online market share, but that doesn't necessarily represent the US consumer population. Kobo has the infrastructure and Walmart has the means to reach a brand new audience. Imagine a display in the middle of Walmart of heavily discounted Walmart branded Kobo reading devices. And with each purchase comes a $10 Walmart branded Kobo giftcard? And look, they even have a POS computer where you can add books to your ereader without actually having to go online.
> 
> They can potentially bring a digital market to a largely physical market.


And I don't foresee them doing any of that. And, while it may be a little stereotypical, I just don't think most people shopping at Walmart are whale readers.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> And I don't foresee them doing any of that. And, while it may be a little stereotypical, I just don't think most people shopping at Walmart are whale readers.


I think you would be surprised. Look at the RWA demographics:



> Age: average age is between 35 and 39 years; the highest percentage falls in the 25-34 age bracket.
> Most frequent readers are younger, with half of frequent and very frequent readers aged 34 and below.
> 92% of survey respondents are print readers; 64% are e-book readers; 35% are audiobook users.
> 
> ...


They buy print books in brick and mortar stores, and the most voracious readers are in younger demographics that don't have as much disposable income. A lot of them shop at Walmart for the prices. This is reflected in the books that Walmart stocks in its stores.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> I think you would be surprised. Look at the RWA demographics:
> 
> They buy print books in brick and mortar stores, and the most voracious readers are in younger demographics that don't have as much disposable income. A lot of them shop at Walmart for the prices. This is reflected in the books that Walmart stocks in its stores.


That survey doesn't mention Walmart specifically that I saw. I believe brick and mortar stores are much more likely to be Barnes & Noble, Target, etc. The three Walmarts closest to me have one shelf of books. They don't even have a whole aisle. One has a panel and the rest of the aisle is greeting cards. I simply don't think whale readers are spending a lot of time shopping at Walmart. I saw a thing where the average Walmart shopper is a 50-year-old female with a median income around 50K a year, I believe. That doesn't seem to coincide with the demographics you're providing. Target, on the other hand, has a younger demographic with more expendable income. I just don't think the name "Walmart" is associated with books, so that perception is going to have to be turned if they want to be a player.


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## 88149 (Dec 13, 2015)

Maybe what they do is resurrect the "Waldenbooks" brand to create the missing association.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

WalMart's online store is the pits. I wouldn't count on them to have a viable book store. They have a question at the bottom of the page asking if I found what I wanted. Most often, the answer is no. I still try but I don't know why.


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## traineroflegend (Jul 4, 2018)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> WalMart's online store is the pits. I wouldn't count on them to have a viable book store. They have a question at the bottom of the page asking if I found what I wanted. Most often, the answer is no. I still try but I don't know why.


Walmart has invested heavily in its online presence and has every desire to rival Amazon. Just a few months ago it closed down dozens of Sam's Clubs, turning a few of them into distribution centers to beef up its delivery presence.

Unfortunately, I don't see it targeting Amazon's ebook dominance anytime soon. A KU-style Kobo platform backed by Walmart wouldn't make much sense because there are few current Kobo owners, certainly nowhere near enough to rival the ~$250 million that KU brings in.


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## Ann Howes (Apr 7, 2018)

traineroflegend said:


> Walmart has invested heavily in its online presence and has every desire to rival Amazon. Just a few months ago it closed down dozens of Sam's Clubs, turning a few of them into distribution centers to beef up its delivery presence.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't see it targeting Amazon's ebook dominance anytime soon. A KU-style Kobo platform backed by Walmart wouldn't make much sense because there are few current Kobo owners, certainly nowhere near enough to rival the ~$250 million that KU brings in.


Yeah, but as mentioned before, Walmart has plenty of spare cash to fund and advertise such a venture. And nobody would expect it to be successful overnight. These things take time and with Kobo they already have a built-in platform which could possibly be adapted to a cloud reader as well, like on your computer or phone, etc. It's about bringing in whole new customer base for both companies--a win-win for everyone involved, except Amazon. I for one would like to see it happen.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

JRTomlin said:


> A huge number of people shop at Walmart for groceries every week. The perception problem may be more on your end than that of Walmart shoppers. They do attract bargain shoppers, but I believe it is deeply fallacious to believe that people who are bargain shoppers don't read.


So true. I know many bargain shoppers who read. In fact, two of the biggest tightarses most budget conscious people I know spend at least half of their leisure time reading. Funny thing, both prefer to buy books rather than borrow them. They just value books highly, I guess. Funny thing, I just realised they've never met each other, and now I think about it, they have little else in common.

One of those used to only read paperbacks -- until he went into a book store (Angus & Robertson I think) that sold the Kobo, had it demonstrated to him, and bought one. Now he reads used paperbacks and new ebooks. Bookstore customer service is what got him into ereading, despite my own attempts at that failing completely.

Also, even a big reading habit isn't really expensive, as hobbies go. Especially for what readers get from it. I know people with hobbies that cost several hundred dollars a week, and I think the readers are more fulfilled by their hobby. Price isn't everything. Instore customer service, if provided, to get people started, might well win it for Walmart. It could even mean a LOT of growth in the ebook market.


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## Gaylord Fancypants (Jun 15, 2018)

Yeah I think Kobo/Wal-Mart will eventually bring Kobo-Plus to the US. If they want to compete with Amazon, they have to... well, compete with Amazon. They need products and services that rival what Amazon does. It probably won't happen for awhile yet (I bet they'll bring Kobo Plus to elsewhere in Europe first).


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

My Walmart's all have a selection of 3-5 rows of books in them. Some in the front and other have them in the back of the stores. They all carry several of each of the known authors books at anytime, and well every harry potter book known to mankind. I will buy a book there on occasion not because they are the cheapest, because they aren't, but because its convenient and they have the best selection within twenty minutes of my house. I don't know who picks books for my local Target but I never know the authors they carry.



Something should be said for convenience. There are places I don't want to bring my kindle incase it gets lost or damaged (beaches waterparks). A plain old paperback or hardcover is just better. Forgetting to order one is a pain in the butt. 


I think having the combination of a easy pickup system at a local store will also save them huge on shipping of books. They could also set up a small print on demand system at each of their distribution centers. Which again would save them on shipping and cost very little in the long run.  Any returned books could be plopped down on a shelf for a discount. You know how quick discounted stuff sells at Walmart even broken scary junk. 

I actually think Walmart could beat Amazon at this if they wanted to, because amazon doesn't seem to care as much about books as they used to.


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## DCRWrites (Jan 20, 2014)

For what it's worth, Walmart just introduced a deal with DC comics where they're selling exclusive comics there. Somebody seems to think it's a place to find at least some readers.


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

I'm thinking what Walmart needs to do is create a separate, but connected website for their online book operation. Maybe something like Walmartbooks.com. I don't see a lot of people finding the time or desire to log into walmart.com to look for books. It's a pain in the butt to go there to get my prescriptions refilled and if buying books is going to be just as tedious, I'll probably stick with Amazon.

One thing I was just thinking of is, getting to the "bookstore" part of Amazon is almost as tedious. That's why the link to Amazon on my bookmarks toolbar goes to the Kindle store and not to the main Amazon front page.

Another thing that occurred to me is, what kind of reception will my novels get at Walmart's book site if they come to Kobo through D2D? Will they be treated equally or will they be treated like second-class citizens, just like B&N treats a paperback that comes through CreateSpace?


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

idontknowyet said:


> I think having the combination of a easy pickup system at a local store will also save them huge on shipping of books. They could also set up a small print on demand system at each of their distribution centers. Which again would save them on shipping and cost very little in the long run.


Would they even need to do that? They could set up a partnership with some company like IngramSpark to handle their POD paperback needs. At first I was going to say they should approach CreateSpace, but then I came to my senses.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

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## Kathy Dee (Aug 27, 2016)

Avis Black said:


> But one factor has been the capital needed to top off the program's payments to authors as the pool of subscribers continues to grow. Kobo does not have unlimited capital.


Don't understand this part of the argument. More subscribers surely means more money with which to pay authors their small percentage of the profits. Seems an infinitely scalable model to me.


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## NancySue (May 17, 2015)

One thing I don't see Walmart doing as Amazon does is publish erotic/erotica and gay/lesbian fiction and romance. I could see them denying authors who write that, access to publish on their site.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

NancySue said:


> One thing I don't see Walmart doing as Amazon does is publish erotic/erotica and gay/lesbian fiction and romance. I could see them denying authors who write that, access to publish on their site.


This could be true, especially at the stores themselves. On the other hand, if it's about money, I can at least see this being allowed online, possibly with a strong adult filter.

When I was in my twenties and thirties (and beyond), I bought a lot of books at Walmart (I think they still had the tilda in their name). A lot of magazines, too. Every two weeks, I'd go shopping, get my groceries and buy a book and a couple of magazines. I was mostly reading romance back then, but I got a good selection of SF and quite a few nonfiction books too.

Don't underestimate Walmart's pocketbook and their desire to be the store everyone shops at. They've upped their game at the stores, running cleaner stores and stocking the things people want. Their prices are reasonable, as well. I used to shop at Aldi, because I had little money for groceries, but when our store closed down to remodel, no way was I driving 50 miles to the next one. So I went to Walmart (our local grocery chains are crazy high on prices). I didn't spend any more money, had a larger selection, better quality, and when I needed to find something, there is always an associate there with a smile and knowledge. Plus, I can look for other things in one store, without having to drive somewhere else.

I think if Walmart and Kobo can make deals on devices, have easy access to books instore, and come up with an app that will let people read the books on any device without worry, they could do it. If they treat the authors right, keep the scammers to a reasonable level, I'd try them out. It will take time, but from what I've seen, Walmart shoppers are savvy and interested in easier ways to do things while having loads of access in one spot. That sounds like Amazon, doesn't it?

If we want competition for Amazon, then we have to encourage those willing to try. I don't know if Kobo and Walmart can do it, but I'd like to see it happen. I'd love it if Apple and Google would step up and make a real play for readers and authors, but I've been waiting for that since 2011.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

It's fun to speculate, but I think we have to be careful about wishful thinking. I'd love for Kobo/Walmart to compete directly with Amazon on all levels, including a subscription service, but neither Kobo nor Walmart are interested in making me happy as a self pub author. More competition is good for me but not them.

I think they're going to focus is going to be on what's the easiest way to make money in the book market. To the extent they can avoid competing directly against a well-established juggernaut like KDP, they will. And Walmart doesn't need Kobo to sell paper books in its stores, so they'll focus online. Selling ebooks should be more efficient than pushing around paper, but Kobo/Walmart have to compete with Amazon, Apple, Google, and B&N. So, I think they'll take it slow and see whether they can provide something unique to the ebook market that the established players have overlooked.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

she-la-ti-da said:


> So I went to Walmart (our local grocery chains are crazy high on prices). I didn't spend any more money, had a larger selection, better quality, and when I needed to find something, there is always an associate there with a smile and knowledge. Plus, I can look for other things in one store, without having to drive somewhere else.


Who are these smiling, knowledgeable associates at WalMart you're talking about? I can never find anyone at the fabric counter and have to call the main desk. I might get someone in 10 or 15 minutes. There's usually only one person in electronics. And as for pick-up, they have a timer you can press to make sure you get an associate quickly but it's always broken. I do use the app when I get in the store, but that usually gets me a scowl.

I like WalMart's prices which are way below the other stores, but customer service does not seem to be high on their list.


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## Mylius Fox (Jun 2, 2014)

JRTomlin said:


> They do attract bargain shoppers, but I believe it is deeply fallacious to believe that people who are bargain shoppers don't read.


That's not what she said.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2018)

KelliWolfe said:


> Why wouldn't Walmart run it exactly the way that Amazon does KU, and for the exact same reasons? Get people in the store, gain market share, deny content to KU. Profitability irrelevant to the primary goals.


Because you don't beat Amazon at their own game. KU is an artificial system that was never designed to be sustainable. WalMart doesn't mind losing money in the short term, but doesn't deliberately build programs that can't be sustainable.

I work in contract packaging. Every single one of our clients deals with Walmart. Which means we deal with Walmart. There is no reason for WalMart to lose money on this program. They can set up a subscription program designed to make a profit and have plenty of inventory by simply ignoring the authors who are in KU exclusively. I am in every subscription service that doesn't require exclusivity. As has already been mentioned, the majority pay a percentage of the list based on how much of the book is read. And Walmart is plenty smart enough to place caps on the list (so nobody can list their 5000 word story for $19.99 and expect to get paid $19.99) and even....gasp...curate their inventory (like they already do with everything else) to make sure the books in the program were actually books.

With the huge amount of data WalMart has, they could kill it with a subscription service if they invested on the front end with curation and set up. And there are plenty of publishers and authors who would be happy to sign up. Amazon is vulnerable right now because it really is a mess. KU is flooded with scam books. Authors are frustrated. Readers are frustrated. WalMart doesn't NEED to become Amazon...it needs to do what Amazon can't or won't...which is provide a functional subscription service that isn't flooded with junk.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

hardnox said:


> Maybe what they do is resurrect the "Waldenbooks" brand to create the missing association.


This, and do several other things to get the planets to line up. It would be an uphill fight, but it could be done. Like everything, it depend on two basic things: motivation and execution.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Walmart isn't exactly known for its ethics, or treating employees or the communities it operates in well.  It is not exactly the company I would like to see give Amazon and/or KU a run for its money. I'm not confident writers would be treated well in any subscription service headed by them.


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## The Fussy Librarian (May 3, 2011)

I think the big difference is that Bezos, as the majority shareholder of Amazon, has always been willing to take on losses in order to capture retail segments. The Walton family, in contrast, has always been about maximizing profit. The two companies just have fundamentally different approaches.

I would love to see more competition for Amazon, but I'm skeptical of Walmart launching a KU-type program.

Jeffrey


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

JWright said:


> Walmart isn't exactly known for its ethics, or treating employees or the communities it operates in well. It is not exactly the company I would like to see give Amazon and/or KU a run for its money. I'm not confident writers would be treated well in any subscription service headed by them.


It is a strange byproduct of marketplace competition that it sometimes results in helping out the ethical ecosystem. Where one company might not care much about public image, with two or more, some compete on the basis of virtuous image. That can help out everyone. Not always, but I'm willing to give it a try.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

David VanDyke said:


> It is a strange byproduct of marketplace competition that it sometimes results in helping out the ethical ecosystem. Where one company might not care much about public image, with two or more, some compete on the basis of virtuous image. That can help out everyone. Not always, but I'm willing to give it a try.


Yes, it is possible. Walmart could get good people to run a subscription program or just a serious contender could force Amazon to up their game. I don't know why Google and Apple don't try to do more. We shall see! I definitely think some company should give Amazon a run for their money.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Just remember that Kobo Plus was set up because BOL asked Kobo to set it up. There is no evidence that Kobo shares the views of some in this thread that to challenge Amazon you must create an Epub Unlimited. In fact there is no evidence that Kobo Plus will ever branch out further than the Low Countries. Kobo follows the Chapters model of tying up with print retailers and most of them are not looking for a library service to reduce their epub and print sales..


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

The Fussy Librarian said:


> I think the big difference is that Bezos, as the majority shareholder of Amazon, has always been willing to take on losses in order to capture retail segments. The Walton family, in contrast, has always been about maximizing profit. The two companies just have fundamentally different approaches.
> 
> I would love to see more competition for Amazon, but I'm skeptical of Walmart launching a KU-type program.
> 
> Jeffrey


This is starting to change. McMillon and Lore have been making a lot of moves and the board is getting dragged along behind whether they want to or not. They just overpaid for controlling shares of a store in India that Amazon was interested in. The shareholders are definitely complaining, but Lore and McMillon don't really care.



JWright said:


> Walmart isn't exactly known for its ethics, or treating employees or the communities it operates in well. It is not exactly the company I would like to see give Amazon and/or KU a run for its money. I'm not confident writers would be treated well in any subscription service headed by them.


This is would be true as few as five years ago, but recently the current CEO and the e-commerce CEO have been making huge improvements. In fact, working for Walmart is actually better than working at an Amazon warehouse. They've increased the pay, improved the benefits, and several other things. They are no longer the bad guys on the block.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Yes, I have heard working in Amazon warehouses is bad.  I'm happy to hear Walmart is making changes.  

As a reader, I have both KU and Scribd subscriptions.  I do like Scribd better and might end up getting rid of my KU one.  I don't know how long Scribd will be able to afford unlimited reading again.


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## The Fussy Librarian (May 3, 2011)

RPatton said:


> This is starting to change. McMillon and Lore have been making a lot of moves and the board is getting dragged along behind whether they want to or not. They just overpaid for controlling shares of a store in India that Amazon was interested in. The shareholders are definitely complaining, but Lore and McMillon don't really care.
> 
> Perhaps. Last time I checked, the Walton family controlled 51 percent of the company so Lore and McMillion are still going to have to listen to the family.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

JWright said:


> Yes, it is possible. Walmart could get good people to run a subscription program or just a serious contender could force Amazon to up their game. I don't know why Google and Apple don't try to do more. We shall see! I definitely think some company should give Amazon a run for their money.


I think we're all hoping Kobo/Walmart will force Amazon to up its game. Google and Apple don't really compete with Amazon because their ebook programs are far from their core competencies. It's a niche neither sees as a big moneymaker. Hopefully, though, Apple is moving in the right direction towards providing more content as their hardware sales plateau. On the other hand, Kobo/Walmart are both very experienced in selling digital content online and their partnership could be a game changer.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

just got an email from KWL



> As you have may have heard, Kobo is going to be launching with Walmart in the US very soon. We wanted to let you know that due to a limitation on Walmart.com's side, they are not able to accept book descriptions longer than 4000 characters. This limit includes spaces, punctuation, and all embedded HTML. A description that is longer than 4000 characters will not completely block the book from being sent to Walmart.com, but it will result in the description showing as blank on Walmart product pages.


This sounds to me like they are very close to pulling the trigger. I'm thinking back-to-school launch? That's huge at Walmart, and a lot of states drop their sales tax during that period. Perfect for a product launch if you don't want to wait for the holiday season.


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## Gaylord Fancypants (Jun 15, 2018)

KelliWolfe said:


> just got an email from KWL
> 
> This sounds to me like they are very close to pulling the trigger. I'm thinking back-to-school launch? That's huge at Walmart, and a lot of states drop their sales tax during that period. Perfect for a product launch if you don't want to wait for the holiday season.


Probably yeah in Sep. IIRC products launched in July/August usually fail, so most companies wait to announce stuff in September.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Because you don't beat Amazon at their own game. KU is an artificial system that was never designed to be sustainable. WalMart doesn't mind losing money in the short term, but doesn't deliberately build programs that can't be sustainable.
> 
> I work in contract packaging. Every single one of our clients deals with Walmart. Which means we deal with Walmart. There is no reason for WalMart to lose money on this program. They can set up a subscription program designed to make a profit and have plenty of inventory by simply ignoring the authors who are in KU exclusively. I am in every subscription service that doesn't require exclusivity. As has already been mentioned, the majority pay a percentage of the list based on how much of the book is read. And Walmart is plenty smart enough to place caps on the list (so nobody can list their 5000 word story for $19.99 and expect to get paid $19.99) and even....gasp...curate their inventory (like they already do with everything else) to make sure the books in the program were actually books.
> 
> With the huge amount of data WalMart has, they could kill it with a subscription service if they invested on the front end with curation and set up. And there are plenty of publishers and authors who would be happy to sign up. Amazon is vulnerable right now because it really is a mess. KU is flooded with scam books. Authors are frustrated. Readers are frustrated. WalMart doesn't NEED to become Amazon...it needs to do what Amazon can't or won't...which is provide a functional subscription service that isn't flooded with junk.


I think it's interesting how many people seem to want Kobo-Walmart to copy Amazon when KU is such a train wreck. I agree that, if Walbo wants to take on Amazon, the best strategy would be to learn from Amazon's mistakes and build a better subscription service. That would mean more human curation --and hence more overhead--but it might be a bigger draw than KU because there would be less junk to plow through. The trads might be more receptive to it, too. I know at one time they were more receptive to Scribd.

As others have said, Walmart isn't known for books, but that doesn't mean Walmart shoppers aren't book buyers or that they wouldn't be interesting in a reasonably priced subscription service. Sure, it isn't going to start with a base as big as Amazon's. When Amazon started, it had nowhere near the base of either Barnes and Noble or Borders and had to spend a ton of money on advertising to get its name out there. Rome wasn't built in a day--and neither will any successful competitor for Amazon be.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

KelliWolfe said:


> This is why I said they should drop exclusivity. They still deny the books to KU and encourage readers to go to Walmart.com because of the cheap subscription price. They're not in competition with B&N/Google Play/iTunes/Kobo. They can afford to ignore them. By giving authors access to a profitable subscription system while still being allowed to publish to the other channels, they'd have a big hose to drain the KU pond. Plus they could pick up a whole lot of books that aren't in KU because the authors don't want to be exclusive with Amazon. Content-wise they might very well come out way ahead of KU.
> 
> Edit: Walmart's online business sucks. It's tiny compared to everything else, even with the online grocery ordering they added a couple of years back. If they're going to compete with Amazon they have to get more customers to Walmart.com. This is why IMHO it would be smart of them to operate any subscription service as Amazon does KU - focus on taking market share away from the competition and getting people into the store. The subscription service itself doesn't need to be profitable if it's doing those things. Play Amazon's own game and beat them at it by offering better terms to the content providers. Not only do they not lose anything by it, they've got a lot to gain. There are millions of books not in KU that they could gather into their own subscription service as an incentive to readers, and end up with a much bigger pool of books than KU.


Excellent points.

Now, let us see if Kobo / Walmart are smart enough to actually do this. And savvy enough to do it right so that it isn't overtaken by scammers.

Not paying bonuses would be one way to discourage scammers, in my opinion.

Another is software that actually monitors pages read, rather than just checking for the highest page-number viewed. Make the authors earn page-read money by, you know, publishing books that get read.


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## Gaylord Fancypants (Jun 15, 2018)

Bill Hiatt said:


> I think it's interesting how many people seem to want Kobo-Walmart to copy Amazon when KU is such a train wreck. I agree that, if Walbo wants to take on Amazon, the best strategy would be to learn from Amazon's mistakes and build a better subscription service. That would mean more human curation --and hence more overhead--but it might be a bigger draw than KU because there would be less junk to plow through. The trads might be more receptive to it, too. I know at one time they were more receptive to Scribd.


The best way to force Amazon to fix the train wreck that is KU is to have some more competition. If Amazon has to compete for authors with Kobo/WalMart, the situation will improve one way or another (either Amazon gets better, or shits the bed and everyone frolicks in Kobo's heavenly meadows forever).


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

I was just on the Walmart website yesterday and noticed that it has been completely revamped.  They're certainly pushing hard on the changes.

One other thing I've been wondering about is Microsoft and Apple.  Within the last year, Apple announced that they're creating an Itunes app for the Microsoft store, which might even be automatically installed on all Windows computers with Windows updates.  Apple has also been in the process of separating Ibooks out of Itunes.  What I'm wondering is if Apple will duplicate that and create an Ibooks app for the Microsoft store and install that on all Windows computers when Microsoft does its updates.  Both companies have been dead silent on the issue.  But if you're trying to keep something secret from Jeff Bezos, that's what you do.  But why wouldn't they duplicate what they're doing with the Itunes app with the Ibooks app?  Even more interestingly, both Apple and Microsoft have tons of money for running a KU-like service.  The potential is there.


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## Mylius Fox (Jun 2, 2014)

Is https://www.kobo.com/publishers loading properly for anyone?


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## ansela (Jun 29, 2018)

Mylius Fox said:


> Is https://www.kobo.com/publishers loading properly for anyone?


It's loading here (Manila).

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk


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## R. C. (Apr 13, 2018)

JWright said:


> Walmart isn't exactly known for its ethics, or treating employees or the communities it operates in well. It is not exactly the company I would like to see give Amazon and/or KU a run for its money. I'm not confident writers would be treated well in any subscription service headed by them.


"Oh, Walmart killed Main Street, all the stores have shut down / Yes, Walmart killed Main Street, took the whole downtown" - Voodoo Highway

Just saying...

CHeers,
Ruairi


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> I was just on the Walmart website yesterday and noticed that it has been completely revamped. They're certainly pushing hard on the changes.
> 
> One other thing I've been wondering about is Microsoft and Apple. Within the last year, Apple announced that they're creating an Itunes app for the Microsoft store, which might even be automatically installed on all Windows computers with Windows updates. Apple has also been in the process of separating Ibooks out of Itunes. What I'm wondering is if Apple will duplicate that and create an Ibooks app for the Microsoft store and install that on all Windows computers when Microsoft does its updates. Both companies have been dead silent on the issue. But if you're trying to keep something secret from Jeff Bezos, that's what you do. But why wouldn't they duplicate what they're doing with the Itunes app with the Ibooks app? Even more interestingly, both Apple and Microsoft have tons of money for running a KU-like service. The potential is there.


Microsoft already has a bookstore.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/books


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## R. C. (Apr 13, 2018)

Mylius Fox said:


> Is https://www.kobo.com/publishers loading properly for anyone?


The page loaded but the reference links do not expand. I tried multiple browsers. So, yeah, it is broken.

Cheers,
Ruairi


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

GeneDoucette said:


> Microsoft already has a bookstore.
> 
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/books


Yes they do, but it's not a self-publishing portal akin Amazon's or Apple's setup. You have to jump through hoops if you want to publish on Microsoft. That's why I see room for potential there. Microsoft has been trying to bribe people to use features like its browser by giving them redeemable points if they do so. If you're trying to bribe people to use your services, you're pretty desperate.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Ruairi said:


> "Oh, Walmart killed Main Street, all the stores have shut down / Yes, Walmart killed Main Street, took the whole downtown" - Voodoo Highway
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's great if there have been improvements and serious competition to Amazon would be good, but it's really hard for me to get excited about Walmart becoming a player with a subscription service and/or ebook store.

It's true that not many could seriously compete with Amazon, but I feel like saying anyone but them please.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> Yes they do, but it's not a self-publishing portal akin Amazon's or Apple's setup. You have to jump through hoops if you want to publish on Microsoft. That's why I see room for potential there. Microsoft has been trying to bribe people to use features like its browser by giving them redeemable points if they do so. If you're trying to bribe people to use your services, you're pretty desperate.


I get what you're saying, but i'm not so sure companies like Microsoft value self-publishing in the way we would like them to. It might be considerably less of a hassle to go out and strike deals with the publishers to carry their books and be done with it. They might not see a self-publishing platform as added value.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

GeneDoucette said:


> I get what you're saying, but i'm not so sure companies like Microsoft value self-publishing in the way we would like them to. It might be considerably less of a hassle to go out and strike deals with the publishers to carry their books and be done with it. They might not see a self-publishing platform as added value.


What I'm thinking is that Apple may very well be aiming to get its Ibooks app on all Microsoft computers. As of this date, you can only buy Apple books on Apple devices, which limits what Apple can earn via its bookstore. But most PCs are Windows PCs. Microsoft would be in partnership as a platform, but allowing Apple to sell through them. Microsoft would get a cut, yet not 'be a bookstore', because that's what their partner Apple would be doing. That way Microsoft gets a cut of the earnings, but Apple would deal with all the hassle of managing the books.

Microsoft would have to do very little to start earning money from this arrangement, which may cause them to try it.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

There's an iTunes application for Windows. I was using it to buy music before I owned an iPhone. Did they not do one for iBooks?


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

KelliWolfe said:


> There's an iTunes application for Windows. I was using it to buy music before I owned an iPhone. Did they not do one for iBooks?


There is no Ibooks app in the Microsoft store, though there's one for Itunes.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Avis Black said:


> If you're trying to bribe people to use your services, you're pretty desperate.


Well that's Raketen Kobo in the dustbin then. Along with Google, Kellogs, and Amazon.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

Avis Black said:


> Yes they do, but it's not a self-publishing portal akin Amazon's or Apple's setup. You have to jump through hoops if you want to publish on Microsoft. That's why I see room for potential there. Microsoft has been trying to bribe people to use features like its browser by giving them redeemable points if they do so. If you're trying to bribe people to use your services, you're pretty desperate.


If you think Microsoft is going to provide anything more than token competition to Amazon, you're pretty desperate! 
At least Walmart knows how to sell books . The question is whether they want to bad enough to provide a viable alternative to Amazon in the self pub ebook market by partnering with Kobo.


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## Bookread (Mar 8, 2016)

If WU doesn't require exclusivity from the authors, they'll have a ton of authors sign up to enter their books in a heartbeat. Myself included. I'm in Kobo Plus right now.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

Arches said:


> If you think Microsoft is going to provide anything more than token competition to Amazon, you're pretty desperate!
> At least Walmart knows how to sell books . The question is whether they want to bad enough to provide a viable alternative to Amazon in the self pub ebook market by partnering with Kobo.


Lore wants it. Read any interview or article. He doesn't ever dodge the Amazon questions and says he will beat them. This isn't about grabbing a percentage and calling it a win. He wants to dance on Amazon's grave. McMillan will handle the Rakuten partnership side of things and Lore will handle the branded app for Walmart customers. Which is actually good, since this guys background is in ecommerce and he built up two successful companies.

But keep in mind, this isn't anything more than Walmart developing a branded app using the Kobo bookstore as the basic infrastructure. This partnership is a way for Walmart to keep its customers on Walmart and for Rakuten to get Kobo in the US part of the NA market.

Walmart isn't reinventing the wheel here. They are using something that already exists instead of starting from scratch and Rakuten is using them to increase their footprint in the NA market (for books, the grocery and delivery side of things in the Asian market is somewhat similar, but flip it around - Walmart is using Rakuten to expand its Asian footprint).

I doubt anything will change on the Kobo side of things as far as what they offer.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Ruairi said:


> "Oh, Walmart killed Main Street, all the stores have shut down / Yes, Walmart killed Main Street, took the whole downtown" - Voodoo Highway
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> ...


Actually, malls decimated main street way before Walmart spread across the US, including my home town -- but otherwise, point taken.

Either way, we're in a different world now. The internet is killing main street. And Walmart is trying to become 'the' place to shop, whether online or at its stores. Just as the Zon is trying to get a foothold in the brick and mortar arena in some places.

They're not exactly stupid people running that company. You don't become the top retailer in the US by being stupid.

The people running Amazon -- despite our complaints here -- aren't stupid either. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, not just for authors, but everyone else as well.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I had a kneejerk reaction that this was not as even a competition as it appears due to demographics. (That Amazon's customers were much more "reader demographic" customers--better educated, wealther, older.) I checked around some to see if I was right, and it looks like that is indeed true.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/demographic-differences-are-key-in-amazon-walmart-online-battle/

"Amazon's shoppers are older, wealthier, better-educated and more likely to be childless. More than one-quarter are over 50, 57 percent earn over $60,000 a year, and 64 percent are childless. They're split evenly between men and women.

"By contrast, Walmart shoppers are predominantly young women--63 percent. Nearly half have kids, and 51 percent earn more than $60,000. Shoppers under age 34 are close to half the customer base. Fewer shoppers went to graduate school or earn over $100,000 a year compared with Amazon's customers." [The above was based on third-party surveys. I found academic studies saying the same thing.]

For what I write, Amazon's customer base has always been the best fit. (Which is why I do better in Select than wide, even pre-KU.) I expect that would vary depending on your genre and audience, but I also expect that Amazon's customer is much more likely, statistically, to be a reader, especially a significant book buyer.

Anecdotally, almost nobody I know who is middle income or above shops at Walmart. Ever. (And there is a big Walmart in my relatively small agriculture-and-university town of 23,000, as well as in the similar neighboring town of 30,000. I live in one of the reddest states in the country.) They have Costco memberships, and they may well shop at Target if they have one near them, but they don't shop at Walmart. Maybe that will change in the future, who knows. For now, my book-money would be on Amazon in this one.


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## GoneToWriterSanctum (Sep 13, 2014)

I don't consent


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> So you think young women don't read novels and that only people who went to graduate school read. Only people who are 'middle income' read. I suggest you do a little further look into the demographics of READERS. You are wrong.


I didn't say "only." I said statistically more likely.

My audience, personally, tends to be 35+, many in the 45-65 range, and a bit better educated than average. So more of an Amazon reader/buyer.

Personally, as a middle-income young woman with kids, I went to the library every single week. i almost never bought a book. I didn't say (or I hope I didn't) that young women aren't readers. I said (or I should have said) that young women (especially with kids) aren't AS LIKELY to be book BUYERS. It's statistics, not individuals, that I was looking at. In general: we're strapped! (If by "we" I include "me at a younger age." Rent/mortgage, health care, DAY CARE, and so much more. Whew.)

There's a really interesting Pew Research study about U.S. book readers that's worth a look. Here's one link: https://www.marketingcharts.com/demographics-and-audiences/men-demographics-and-audiences-70503

Book readers much more likely to be: women, college graduates. People with higher incomes are also more likely to be book readers. Here's the whole report. Chart on p. 6 is especially interesting. http://www.pewinternet.org/files/2016/08/PI_2016.09.01_Book-Reading_FINAL.pdf

(I have an MBA in marketing and a past career spent marketing almost entirely to women. Research is my life.  )


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

I think Amazon clearly has the better demographics for selling books.  I mean of course people who shop at Walmart read too, but Amazon did start out as a bookseller after all.  The original customers are book buyers, and then they came up with their Prime memberships.  Prime members buy a lot more than other customers - who do tend to be more affluent people.  So people of all income levels, ages, shoppers at different stores, etc.  can and do buy books, but Amazon has its roots there and expanded on it with their Prime memberships for attracting buyers who like to spend a lot and are willing to pay for the convenience.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> You ignore the fact that in that Pew the heaviest readers by a long shot are women, including ones with kids.


Book readers much more likely to be: women

From my post.

I didn't ignore it. I just spent a whole paragraph talking about women with kids. Baffled here. I WAS that woman.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> Women with kids don't read? Really? The millions and millions of women who support the romance publishing industry don't have kids?
> 
> You are vastly oversimplifying the market for novels. MANY college educated women don't have much money and many women - with kids - look for inexpensive books to read.


Read my post, please. You don't seem to be reading. I'm baffled. I will repeat the pertinent paragraph, though.

Personally, as a middle-income young woman with kids, I went to the library every single week. i almost never bought a book. I didn't say (or I hope I didn't) that young women aren't readers. I said (or I should have said) that young women (especially with kids) aren't AS LIKELY to be book BUYERS. It's statistics, not individuals, that I was looking at. In general: we're strapped! (If by "we" I include "me at a younger age." Rent/mortgage, health care, DAY CARE, and so much more. Whew.)

***

Statistics aren't individuals. Statistically, the Amazon audience is MORE LIKELY to be a book-buying audience, particularly of my particular brand of romance, than the Walmart audience. That doesn't mean that women with kids don't read.

The relative appeal of Walmart and Amazon to frequent book BUYERS *is* the topic. That doesn't mean nobody who shops at Walmart will read. I'm talking percentages and probabilities. Statistically, I think Amazon's nose is ahead on this one. As was mentioned above, Prime customers are a more affluent audience more *likely*, statistically, to be book buyers.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> I was too and I found a few dollars for inexpensive books. Going to the library took too much time out of my very busy day. Now believe whatever makes you feel good including that younger women never buy books. It's no skin off my nose.


But...I think you're a childless gay man. In the UK. Or am I thinking about somebody else? If so, I apologize. I'm not sure why we're talking personal experience anyway and not statistics, which is a better basis for decision-making.

I'm not believing what makes me feel good. I'm drawing conclusions from statistical evidence for my business. Which is what businesspeople do.

It's not a class war. That woman was me. (And I worked my way through college, and spent years after college, as a secretary. I had bookshelves. They were plastic. Later on, I worked 40+ hours a week, had two little kids, an 18% mortgage we were paying by the skin of our teeth, zero day care subsidy, and a husband who was only home half the time. I think I qualified as "busy." Also "broke." That's the heroine I often write now.) If you're buying books, you tend to be buying kids' books, the ones your kids ask for again and again.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> But...I think you're a childless gay man. In the UK. Or am I thinking about somebody else? If so, I apologize. I'm not sure why we're talking personal experience anyway and not statistics, which is a better basis for decision-making.
> 
> I'm not believing what makes me feel good. I'm drawing conclusions from statistical evidence for my business. Which is what businesspeople do.
> 
> It's not a class war. That woman was me. (And I worked my way through college, and spent years after college, as a secretary. I had bookshelves. They were plastic. Later on, I worked 40+ hours a week, had two little kids, an 18% mortgage we were paying by the skin of our teeth, zero day care subsidy, and a husband who was only home half the time. I think I qualified as "busy." Also "broke." That's the heroine I often write now.) If you're buying books, you tend to be buying kids' books, the ones your kids ask for again and again.


Regardless of where someone falls in a demographic, it doesn't change their ability to correctly analyze statistics.

And I think you need to do some research on the KU demo. The KU demo is exactly the Walmart demo. The Amazon shopper, isn't primarily buying books. The studies you should be looking at are the studies focused on the marketing demos. The ones looking for correlations among the women who read FSOG, not what someone's education level is. You want to learn what they are buying and where they are buying it.

I sincerely hope no reader discovers your posts in this thread because I felt insulted while reading it and I'm outlier in all those studies. I don't think it was your intention, but it comes across condescending and as though _your_ writing is for a _better_ class of women. For the record, I know a lot of women who are in the lower upper class who buy their books, some groceries, toiletries, and even some clothes from Walmart. Some have children, some don't, all are part of households that earn from just under a million up to about 3 million a year.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

LilyBLily said:


> Maybe I'm reading the statistics wrong, but 57 percent of women versus 51 percent of women--both groups earning over $60k a year--does not seem like a huge spread to me.
> 
> Amazon is higher class than Walmart, and the Pew research clearly shows that the more educated a woman is--education and income being our American class determinants--the more likely she is to buy and read more books. That does nothing to prove that Walmart can't sell more books than Amazon, given the drive to do so. Walmart simply has to figure out how to do it.
> 
> Side note: I know people who hate and despise Amazon and Walmart equally and refuse to patronize either company. Amazon has a long, bad history of treating employees like dirt, just like Walmart. I thought twice before I uploaded my books to Amazon.


You're right; it's just a statistical edge, not a dealbreaker. But it does look to me to be a significant edge. You're talking about THIN margins with both companies.

My own audience tends to be older, so it skews more Amazon, which informs my personal decisionmaking. I just thought a demographic side-by-side of Amazon and Walmart shoppers would be informative. Didn't realize it would be such a hornet's nest!

Personally, the don't-have-money-to-buy-all-the-books-they-want shopper is one reason I'm in KU. Lots of my readers seem to be in KU, and I'm sure it's for budget purposes. That makes personal-me happy, and it's also been a good business decision for personal-me.

I'll say again: who BUYS is not necessarily the same as who READS. Buying is about disposable income.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> "By contrast, Walmart shoppers are predominantly young women--63 percent. Nearly half have kids, and 51 percent earn more than $60,000. Shoppers under age 34 are close to half the customer base. Fewer shoppers went to graduate school or earn over $100,000 a year compared with Amazon's customers." [The above was based on third-party surveys. I found academic studies saying the same thing.]


That lines up nicely with the biggest and most voracious chunk of romance readers according to RWA's statistics

Gender: 82% are female; 18% are male. 
Age: average age is between 35 and 39 years; the highest percentage falls in the 25-34 age bracket.
Most frequent readers are younger, with half of frequent and very frequent readers aged 34 and below.

So yeah, I definitely want my books in Walmart.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Another interesting thing (though why I'm posting it, I surely don't know, at this point!) There was a conversation I was privy to amidst several APub authors who'd had their books placed in Walmart in big numbers. They said it made no difference to their sales. They were really surprised, because it was supposed to be a big deal. 

If Walmart does an ebook subscription service, of course, that's a different animal than physical books placed on the shelves. But it's another data point. I was surprised myself. This was romance, which is the bestselling fiction genre amongst women (though I think mystery comes close).


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

The worst possible thing that could happen is WalMart goes through with another sub service.

Sub services are poison to talent (us!) in the first place, but if there's anyone that could theoretically beat and bully a profit out of this money black hole and play against us dirtier than Amazon, it'd be WalMart. If you think surprise bans and rank stripping is bad, look at what WalMart does to their real life employees. Now imagine what they're do to anonymous randos who start out willing to give them stock for free with a 30% cut.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> "By contrast, Walmart shoppers are predominantly young women--63 percent. Nearly half have kids, and 51 percent earn more than $60,000. Shoppers under age 34 are close to half the customer base. Fewer shoppers went to graduate school or earn over $100,000 a year compared with Amazon's customers." [The above was based on third-party surveys. I found academic studies saying the same thing.]


That leave over a third of Walmart's shoppers outside that particular demographic.

I'll take 'em if you don't want 'em.

As far as the CBS news report goes, that info will be old news in 5 years. "Walmart"_ today_ may be a different entity than "Walmart"_ tomorrow _. They went from being a primarily rural retailer in the 1980's to urban and nationwide by the late 1990's. Things change, including primary demographics of customers.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Is Walmart available worldwide in the same way that Amazon is?


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Is Walmart available worldwide in the same way that Amazon is?


I always feel left out when people talk of the dominance etc. of Walmart, because the store barely exists in the Boston area, where I live. The nearest one is in Framingham. Meanwhile, Target is all over the place.


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## Mylius Fox (Jun 2, 2014)

JRTomlin said:


> Yes, loading fine. I just uploaded a novel and had no problems as well.


Nah, it doesn't seem to be loading properly; I believe you are talking about the Kobo Writing Life website. I found that one afterwards and signed up. I was just curious at the time about this one, including what they meant by the alternative "Kobo Publisher Operations" (as someone else said, the dropdown menu isn't working and the menu at the top loaded as plain text), although I'm guessing that's for trad.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

jb1111 said:


> That leave over a third of Walmart's shoppers outside that particular demographic.
> 
> I'll take 'em if you don't want 'em.
> 
> As far as the CBS news report goes, that info will be old news in 5 years. "Walmart"_ today_ may be a different entity than "Walmart"_ tomorrow _. They went from being a primarily rural retailer in the 1980's to urban and nationwide by the late 1990's. Things change, including primary demographics of customers.


I was only referring to who I thought would win if it came down to a war for customers. They both operate on razor-thing margins. They both have a reputation for squeezing suppliers--Walmart more so, because of its insistence on always being the lowest priced store. One of them is more of a discount site, and the other one carries a broader range of goods.

You are right that stores and companies change. Walmart's entire reputation and emphasis, though, is for one thing: the lowest prices. It's hard to see them changing their entire focus. Amazon's reputation and emphasis is on shopping ease, the customer, and being the "Everything Store." The "always the low-price leader" is not likely to be any more generous to authors than Amazon is with KU. They might not demand exclusivity, so I can see how that would be attractive. If it comes to a head-to-head battle, though, my money would be on Amazon. That was pretty much my sole point.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Lilly_Frost said:


> That's interesting. Do you know if the books were distributed as hardcovers or paperbacks? I know quite a few people who buy authors they absolutely love in hardback, and Walmart usually has really good markdowns on those--a hardcover that will run $25-$30 can be had for about $9 cheaper there. I think that's where my husband bought most of his Robert Jordan behemoths. I think they move a lot more paperbacks, though.
> 
> Our Walmart has a nice long aisle of books, with a kids section, a Middle Grades/YA section, an inspirational section that includes Christian/inspirational romance, and then a more general section with thrillers, westerns, and romance. Then there is the hot new books, which are primarily hardcover or trade paperbacks. The aisle is always busy and they seem to move a lot of books, but then the closest B&N is 35 miles away, on the far side of the closest bigger city, the roads through said city are awful and congested, and our two public libraries keep such odd hours that anyone with a regular 9-5 type job is going to find them closed most of the time when they aren't working. So maybe having a captive & desperate customer base helps our Walmart.


They were paperbacks. APub does its paperbacks in mass-market (smaller) size and sells them for relatively little--my 105K+ books with them are all $9.99. I imagine they were marked down further at Walmart.

Romance has really become all about ebooks (and to a lesser extent audio), though. (Per experience, others' experience, Author Earnings, and my former agent. I'll just put up my sources preemptively here. The APA etc. will tell you differently, but as we know, they still aren't counting ebooks very well.) An ebook section would, I'd imagine, perform differently.


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

Ruairi said:


> "Oh, Walmart killed Main Street, all the stores have shut down / Yes, Walmart killed Main Street, took the whole downtown" - Voodoo Highway


I always find it funny how people will talk about how Walmart killed all these smaller stores, but they never seem to talk about how many mom and pop hardware stores have been shuttered because of Home Depot and Lowes. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.


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## RebeccaMarshall (Jun 21, 2018)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Is Walmart available worldwide in the same way that Amazon is?


It's all over Canada. We had Target, but it only lasted about a year, so literally everybody I know shops at Walmart at least some of the time.

Only semi-related, but I also find it somewhat interesting to hear all the negatives about Walmart. I'm only mid-20s so my close friends have had a lot of minimum wage jobs in the last decade. Of all of them, Walmart was by far the most generous.


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## Mylius Fox (Jun 2, 2014)

JRTomlin said:


> Writing Life is also loading, which I mentioned as an aside which is why I said I did that AS WELL.


My bad.  For some reason I took the book uploading comment to mean you were talking about Writing Life on both counts.


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

RebeccaMarshall said:


> Only semi-related, but I also find it somewhat interesting to hear all the negatives about Walmart. I'm only mid-20s so my close friends have had a lot of minimum wage jobs in the last decade. Of all of them, Walmart was by far the most generous.


A lot of it is band wagon jumping. It's hip and cool to hate on Walmart, so a lot of people are joining the hate.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

No, it's based on the actual business practices of Walmart, not to be hip and cool. And there are definitely big differences between Home Depot and Lowe's. I go to Lowes over Home Depot and I definitely have specific reasons for it.



dgcasey said:


> A lot of it is band wagon jumping. It's hip and cool to hate on Walmart, so a lot of people are joining the hate.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Content removed. I don't consent to the new TOS of 2018.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I think people's prejudice against Walmart has more to do with their practices against suppliers and other stores (and the fact that they pay so very little, and don't offer benefits--and those are local people known in the community) than anything else. So people who can afford NOT to shop there prefer not to. I suspect the reason Amazon isn't hated on as wide a scale is that they shifted the whole paradigm. I mean--online shopping is awesome, and they did it really, really well. They foresaw and facilitated a shift in shopping habits. So, yeah, they've made it harder for department stores, but department stores weren't necessarily everybody's favorite warm & fuzzy citizens anyway.

I believe lots of people don't care for Walmart because a lot of the stuff is cheap. Target actually has cute clothes. As far as groceries, Winco (here where I am) has a better selection and is also cheap. In some communities, however, Walmart is pretty much it for fresh food and vegetables. That's a different story.

It's complicated, I guess. On balance, I just think the nod will go to Amazon as far as moving books, for a variety of reasons from customer demographics to company priorities and skill sets.

ETA: Interesting article about Amazon Apparel. It & Target are battling it out for sort of "chic cheap casual" precedence. https://www.fungglobalretailtech.com/research/deep-dive-amazon-apparel-us-survey-reveals-shoppers-buy-retailers-switched-attitudes-toward-amazon-fashion-retailer/


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

RE: store 'snobbery':
A lot of people I know who dislike Walmart generally dislike it because they don't like the shopping experience. Walmart is usually crowded and milling with people, and you have to make your way around lots of people -- the overall experience isn't as "pleasant" as some people would prefer it to be. 

It's much different shopping at Walmart than it is at a fancy clothing store downtown.

A lot of people do not like shopping with a lot of other people in the store. It's just fact. A sad one, but a fact just the same.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I think people's prejudice against Walmart has more to do with their practices against suppliers and other stores (and the fact that they pay so very little, and don't offer benefits--and those are local people known in the community) than anything else.


That's not really true, though. They tend to pay better, especially at starting wages, than most other places that hire unskilled workers. And their benefits aren't bad if you get on full-time, which isn't that hard to do if you're not a screwup. They accrue vacation and sick time better than the last few jobs I had in IT. I've got several family members working for them - dad, brother, daughter, ex. They've cleaned up their act a lot in the last few years, although like most companies they're hurting in lower and mid-level management positions. Hard to keep good people in those.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

KelliWolfe said:


> That's not really true, though. They tend to pay better, especially at starting wages, than most other places that hire unskilled workers. And their benefits aren't bad if you get on full-time, which isn't that hard to do if you're not a screwup. They accrue vacation and sick time better than the last few jobs I had in IT. I've got several family members working for them - dad, brother, daughter, ex. They've cleaned up their act a lot in the last few years, although like most companies they're hurting in lower and mid-level management positions. Hard to keep good people in those.


If you compare the job details/requirements/benefits what have you between a Walmart store employee and an Amazon Warehouse employee, Walmart wins across the board. Like every single measurable criteria.

McMillon has been dragging everyone into the 21st century and even if the Walton children hate it, it doesn't matter since only Steuart is on the board. Even if the Waltons own 50.86% of the shares (or whatever the number is), they can't really change things until the shareholders meeting when their votes can make a difference or if they want to do what would amount to a takeover and oust everyone from the board (which could happen). The board agreed to the Flipkart buy the online brand acquisitions, the Rakuten deal, and whatever else is planned, so my gut says that the Waltons have a little less influence than they think they have.


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## dgcasey (Apr 16, 2017)

JWright said:


> I go to Lowes over Home Depot and I definitely have specific reasons for it.


That's okay. I go to Home Depot because I can't stand Jimmie Johnson.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

jb1111 said:


> RE: store 'snobbery':
> A lot of people I know who dislike Walmart generally dislike it because they don't like the shopping experience. Walmart is usually crowded and milling with people, and you have to make your way around lots of people -- the overall experience isn't as "pleasant" as some people would prefer it to be.
> 
> It's much different shopping at Walmart than it is at a fancy clothing store downtown.
> ...


Agree. I don't like to shop and hate crowds. Shopping at Walmart is like the worst experience ever. Every Walmart I've ever been in is dirty, disorganized, and really crowded- yes they do have a wide variety of items and cheap prices - so that's why it's crowded. It's too much of a nightmare for me. I hate it beyond just their business practices.

I haven't seen it improve over the past couple of years, the employees seem miserable and I have had a few complain to me about their working conditions without me asking them about it. So if they have improved some that is good news but they have a long way up as far as I'm concerned.

The partnership with Kobo could help those with wide books sell more so that's good. I don't expect Walmart to ever go real far with books just like I don't expect Amazon to get big in groceries just because they acquired Whole Foods. Time will tell.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

JRTomlin said:


> I occasionally shop at a grocery Walmart. It is always immaculately clean, has nice, friendly employees (one even volunteered to hold my westie's leash once while I went inside to pay for some plants), and is never any more crowded than any other store. Admittedly I never shop at Walmart for anything but groceries but as with the Amazon hatred, I find the hatred of Walmart a bit overblown. If someone wants to shop and totally avoid crowds, Amazon works wonders for that though. &#128540;


Obviously, it depends on the store and the area. My local Walmart is one of the busiest in the country, so obviously it is a crowded shopping experience. Just 10 miles down the road is another one that is less crowded. The workers at my local Wally's are friendly and reasonably happy.

I've noticed more negative attitudes by workers and clerks at different retail chains (other than Walmart) -- usually the chains that have a better rep. So it's a mixed bag.

I hope the Walmart/Kobo thing works out. Competition is good. I share JWright's skepticism that it will necessarily be a huge player in books. I think Amazon is pretty much the defacto website for books, when you look at their percentage of the market. But that doesn't mean that a competitor can't liven things up. At least authors will have an additional venue to sell their books. I know Kobo's already out there, but no one I know personally is aware of Kobo. Walmart would obviously give Kobo more visibility.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

I avoid Walmart like the plague but have still been to ones in many different states and never seen an immaculate one.

I don't think my views are overblown and I'm scratching my head over all that are defending them, but oh well. 

I also live out in the middle of nowhere.  There is a grocery store 30 minutes away, and Walmart and the other chains are 50 minutes away.  So yes, I love to shop online to avoid crowds and not drive so far.  I did buy a lawn mower online from Walmart and it arrived with no issues.  I've only had a few issues over the years with ordering from Amazon and they took care of the problems.  

I am hoping the Kobo-Walmart alliance works well for self-published writers to sell more books.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

jb1111 said:


> I hope the Walmart/Kobo thing works out. Competition is good. I share JWright's skepticism that it will necessarily be a huge player in books. I think Amazon is pretty much the defacto website for books, when you look at their percentage of the market. But that doesn't mean that a competitor can't liven things up. At least authors will have an additional venue to sell their books. I know Kobo's already out there, but no one I know personally is aware of Kobo. Walmart would obviously give Kobo more visibility.


We'd all like to see competition for Amazon, but the idea that nobody can compete is so prevalent among indies, I feel like the discussion always turns into 








rather than focusing on ways we as indies can drive market share elsewhere, just like we've spent years driving it to Amazon.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

The only thing I know about Walmart is from the emails of pics of the weirdly-dressed Walmart shoppers  . Makes me think it's not in competition with Harrods


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

JRTomlin said:


> As far as Kobo, it is much bigger outside the US, particularly in Canada it seems. I simply do not assume that because Amazon is the big dog in book sales today that the situation is permanent. A decade or so ago people would have said the same about Borders and Barnes & Noble, I suspect. Of course, I am not wishing bad things for Amazon. It pays my bills, but I would love to see competition and this is currently by far the best chance for that to happen.


That's a good balance. I don't want to see Amazon collapse in flaming ruins, but real competition might encourage it to address some of the problems that make life harder for us.

I wouldn't have much faith in Walmart by itself competing in ebooks, and I'd be worried it would run right over Kobo in terms of controlling the operation--except that Kobo is owned by Rakuten, a big multinational that wouldn't be as easy to push around. If Kobo gets enough say in the way the program is run, it could do well. Kobo's own operation looks pretty good, even though it isn't that big in the US.

It wasn't so long ago that IBM was such a dominant power in computers that no one could imagine a time when it wouldn't be. It didn't change with the times, putting too much emphasis on mainframes and not really understanding the potential of the PC. By the time it figured that out, other companies had become entrenched in that market. OK, so that does sound a little more like Barnes and Noble than Amazon, but Amazon has made its share of mistakes. There are openings for possible competitors.


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

I live in a small, university town and our Walmart is immaculate. Also, if we didn't have Walmart, we wouldn't have a store in town. We do have pharmacies and one other grocery store, but unless you're willing to drive 40 miles, you shop a lot at Walmart. Now, what that means for books is anyone's guess. Those can be had online.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

Bill Hiatt said:


> That's a good balance. I don't want to see Amazon collapse in flaming ruins, but real competition might encourage it to address some of the problems that make life harder for us.
> 
> I wouldn't have much faith in Walmart by itself competing in ebooks, and I'd be worried it would run right over Kobo in terms of controlling the operation--except that Kobo is owned by Rakuten, a big multinational that wouldn't be as easy to push around. If Kobo gets enough say in the way the program is run, it could do well. Kobo's own operation looks pretty good, even though it isn't that big in the US.
> 
> It wasn't so long ago that IBM was such a dominant power in computers that no one could imagine a time when it wouldn't be. It didn't change with the times, putting too much emphasis on mainframes and not really understanding the potential of the PC. By the time it figured that out, other companies had become entrenched in that market. OK, so that does sound a little more like Barnes and Noble than Amazon, but Amazon has made its share of mistakes. There are openings for possible competitors.


Bill most of your analysis is spot on, but actually, it was so long ago that IBM was king of the PC world. I'm old enough to remember back in the eighties, but in high tech, that was eons ago. The point is still valid that Amazon might not last, and probably won't. I'd like to see more competition for KDP/KU now, and Kobo/Walmart seems to be the only viable contender anytime soon.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

Bill Hiatt said:


> I wouldn't have much faith in Walmart by itself competing in ebooks, and I'd be worried it would run right over Kobo in terms of controlling the operation--except that Kobo is owned by Rakuten, a big multinational that wouldn't be as easy to push around. If Kobo gets enough say in the way the program is run, it could do well. Kobo's own operation looks pretty good, even though it isn't that big in the US.


I strongly recommend doing research on Marc Lore. He's the one driving the e-commerce bus and he's not a rube in any way shape or form. The man knows what he's doing and has launched two successful online stores. The first, Amazon drove into the ground until they could either fold and walk away or they could sell (Amazon wanted the diaper market and was going to get it anyway they could). The second, Walmart paid Lore a lot of money, and then said, come work for us, continue to run your business the way you have, we won't tell you what to do, and while you're at it, do you want to do your thing for us too?

Today's Walmart is not Wal-Mart from five years ago. They changed the name (lost the hyphen), tweaked their colors, have been quietly buying up brands and slowly bringing new brands to their stores, none of which have the usual Walmart Branding. The stores are looking more and more like Target stores when it comes to content, except that their prices are still a little lower. Their online brand (Bonobos, Modcloth, and a few others) aren't tied at all to Walmart. The idea is they are slowly going after the younger urban demographic by introducing them to Walmart through these other brands (it also has the benefit of keeping them out the hands of Amazon).

The last time I was in a Walmart, only 4 or 5 lanes were closed and the lines were at least 4 people deep. The managers were even running registers and gave the warning to those in their line that if their was a problem, they might have to step away for a moment. I studied the book aisle (between two registers, kind of broke up the front part of the store, and for this store in particular, it was the perfect placement during the summer) and it had several browsers. The people who pick up a book, run their hands over the cover and then put it back. It also had a fair number of customers who came in, snatched the latest Nora Roberts, Lee Childs, or James Patterson book off the shelf, not even taking a second look at the covers.

Between the media's presentation of the working conditions at Walmart and the lack of any of the same coverage for Amazon, I can see why people think Walmart is the worst place in the world. It isn't. They gave employees a one time bonus (depending on length of employment, my understanding was that it was't pennies either), expanded their health coverage and include Paternity leave. (I've worked at some companies that didn't have paternity leave, you had to either take as sabbatical or use PTO.) Wages are starting at $11/hour. But since the media isn't covering any of these things no one knows about it.

They're making big changes, all of which are likely due to the co-CEOs and their plans to bring Walmart to the 21st century.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

It helps to remember that Amazon has gotten where they are by running with perpetual losses on sales for almost their entire existence. Aside from AWS they've never been profitable. That works when you're crushing smaller, specialized competitors, but now they're facing Walmart _and_ Rakuten. Both of those companies are huge, profitable, and smart. And they'd both like to see Amazon turned into a flaming pile of wreckage.

At the same time Amazon can no longer rely on their sales tax evasion to give them an unfair pricing advantage over local brick and mortar stores, and their sweetheart deal with the USPS is potentially in jeopardy as well. They're going to have to make some serious changes in how they're doing things if they want to stay on top.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2018)

KelliWolfe said:


> At the same time Amazon can no longer rely on their sales tax evasion to give them an unfair pricing advantage over local brick and mortar stores,


You know I am not an Amazon fangirl, but really I've been paying sales tax on purchases through Amazon for YEARS. Amazon has been charging sales tax in most states that have it now for a while. This idea that people shop online specifically to avoid sales tax is just silly. Sure, some people will go to any length to avoid paying sales tax, but most people do not think about sales tax when making day to day purchases (I've seen the stats). Sales tax actually ranks very low on the reasons people shop online. Much higher up the food chain are:

Selection: It is easier to find the exact color, style, and size of something you want. When I walk into a store, far too often I walk out empty-handed because I either can't find my size, can't find my size in a color I want, or can't find my size in something I actually would wear.

Crowds/traffic: Many people simply want to avoid the hassle and drama of fighting traffic, trying to find a parking space, and then dealing with crowds of people. Particularly in bad weather.

convenience: It is 1 AM in the morning and you just remembered you forgot to get a birthday present for your sister, and you won't have time to get to a store because of your work hours. No problem! Lemme log on Amazon and select two-day (or even one day or same day) shipping.

In addition, Amazon doesn't have a "sweetheart" deal with the USPS. The USPS has always offered special commercial pricing to large customers. The USPS is NOT LOSING MONEY on Amazon. Amazon is one of the few profit centers for the USPS. Trump and others who have claimed otherwise are comparing what the USPS charges commercial accounts versus what FedEx or UPS _would _charge. But the USPS has ALWAYS had much lower rates for everything, including normal one time shipping rates, over FedEx. I shipped a box of books to a client via USPS Priority Mail and it cost me $18.90 for overnight delivery to a residential address. The same box via FedEx would have cost me $30 overnight (because FedEx adds a surcharge to residential shipments).

If WalMart went to the USPS and wanted a similar deal and could promise similar volume, there is no reason to believe the USPS wouldn't offer it.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

Does anyone know when they will launch their ebook sales? Like, can we expect it to happen this year? Just curious. Googled it and couldn't find info.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

juliatheswede said:


> Does anyone know when they will launch their ebook sales? Like, can we expect it to happen this year? Just curious. Googled it and couldn't find info.


They said "very soon" in the email they sent me a couple of days ago with a request to fix some technical things with my blurbs that wouldn't work on Walmart's store.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

RPatton said:


> I strongly recommend doing research on Marc Lore. He's the one driving the e-commerce bus and he's not a rube in any way shape or form. The man knows what he's doing and has launched two successful online stores. The first, Amazon drove into the ground until they could either fold and walk away or they could sell (Amazon wanted the diaper market and was going to get it anyway they could). The second, Walmart paid Lore a lot of money, and then said, come work for us, continue to run your business the way you have, we won't tell you what to do, and while you're at it, do you want to do your thing for us too?
> 
> Today's Walmart is not Wal-Mart from five years ago. They changed the name (lost the hyphen), tweaked their colors, have been quietly buying up brands and slowly bringing new brands to their stores, none of which have the usual Walmart Branding. The stores are looking more and more like Target stores when it comes to content, except that their prices are still a little lower. Their online brand (Bonobos, Modcloth, and a few others) aren't tied at all to Walmart. The idea is they are slowly going after the younger urban demographic by introducing them to Walmart through these other brands (it also has the benefit of keeping them out the hands of Amazon).
> 
> ...


I never said he was a rube. He seems to be a shrewd businessman. That doesn't necessarily mean he knows how to move books specifically. I'm still inclined to think the Kobo folks, focused on books, might have a better clue, at least as far as the online are concerned.

Walmart's philosophy toward books may have changed, but it wasn't so long ago that someone I knew got dumped by his trad publisher because of a Walmart announcement that the store would only carry bestsellers. That could be good news from the standpoint that this publisher at least must have been moving a lot of books with Walmart to feel as if it wasn't worth maintaining authors who weren't in the bestseller list if they couldn't get shelf space in Walmart. And it's natural for a store to want to stock bestsellers--but only bestsellers? That speaks to limited shelf space and/or low selection. Having another outlet for authors regularly on the bestseller list isn't going to do us much good or compete effectively with Amazon.

As I said, though, things may have changed. I can't really tell from the selection of paperbacks, but I searched for fantasy and in the first five pages got hit almost entirely by books and authors I recognized immediately. I doubt they'd curate ebooks in the same way, though.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

KelliWolfe said:


> They said "very soon" in the email they sent me a couple of days ago with a request to fix some technical things with my blurbs that wouldn't work on Walmart's store.


That's encouraging. I'm anxious to see what will happen.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> They said "very soon" in the email they sent me a couple of days ago with a request to fix some technical things with my blurbs that wouldn't work on Walmart's store.


Who sent you an email? Kobo? I didn't get one


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

JWright said:


> I avoid Walmart like the plague but have still been to ones in many different states and never seen an immaculate one.


I live in the Portland, OR area. Our Walmarts are bright, clean, and the employees are mostly competent.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

The partnership was announced a while ago, and the press-release called for a Walmart branded app to be released around September.

This isn't a merger. This is Walmart taking Kobo's infrastructure, feeding it into the Walmart branded app and selling ebooks to their US customers. Kobo gets a bigger piece of the US market and Walmart doesn't have to do anything except an app.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

SevenDays said:


> I live in the Portland, OR area. Our Walmarts are bright, clean, and the employees are mostly competent.


I never shopped at Walmart when I lived in Portland and none of my friends did either. The city fought it long and hard.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

JWright said:


> I never shopped at Walmart when I lived in Portland and none of my friends did either. The city fought it long and hard.


I don't understand why anybody cares whether the stores are clean or whether they actually shop at Walmart. All that matters is whether they can put together a viable ebook platform, and RPatton swears they've got that covered. The more outlets for ebooks the better.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Arches said:


> I don't understand why anybody cares whether the stores are clean or whether they actually shop at Walmart. All that matters is whether they can put together a viable ebook platform, and RPatton swears they've got that covered. The more outlets for ebooks the better.


No, it doesn't matter when it comes to online sales., but the discussion has been broader than that - a possible head-to-head battle between the titans. I mentioned in one post about cleanliness and several have told me their stores are clean. Walmart does not appeal to everyone, neither does Amazon, which is the broader point. Anyway, we'll see what happens.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

I'm not superior to anyone and never said I was.  That's a pretty crappy thing to say.

There is certainly more to the story of Walmart than clean stores in Portland though.  I haven't lived there in several years, but there was always a lot of opposition to it as well - including city government and a few years ago the city divested its investment in Walmart.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

I think the ereader might actually be the key to this. They need to add something that the kindle doesn't have for reader convenience. I like my kindle it would be hard to convince me to buy a whole new device on a new platform to get something that I already have. 

That said for voracious readers they really need to think about eye fatigue weight and lighting. These are some of the reasons I actually prefer the older models of the kindle.


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## Scott Reeves (May 27, 2011)

Avis Black said:


> Walmart shoppers tend to be frugal,


They also tend to be rude, hog the aisles, stop abruptly without caring whether anyone is behind them, go in the out door and out the in door and then give you the stink eye if you're obeying the huge lettering above the entrance and exit and thus doing it properly and refusing to yield the door to them because of principle, fly out of the aisles without first looking for cross traffic and then brazenly giving you the stink eye when they nearly smack into you, etc etc.

I'm just saying.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

It is disheartening to see entire classes of shoppers denigrated -- either here, or anywhere.

Their money is as green as yours or mine.

Now, whether they will be buying books online? That is a good question.

On an unrelated note, I also was shopping at the local Kroger's owned chain store. They have a large selection of books -- about one and a half aisles.

The smell of fresh paper filled the air when I walked down the aisle -- mostly paperbacks, and some hardbound books also. It made me wonder if perhaps _other _retailers -- like Krogers or Target -- will also get into the online book business eventually.


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## Rod Little (Jun 18, 2017)

If anyone can complete with Amazon on the retail level, it is Wal-Mart.  As for books at WMT... only time will tell. 

I'm surprised Google hasn't made a bigger dent. Maybe they are waiting... watching...


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

It continues to be the case that the majority of people reading books are reading paper, and not off of e-readers. If Walmart wanted to go after a market segment that hasn't been tapped yet--and the partnership with Kobo seems like a clear yes--then there's a lot of room there.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2018)

Bill Hiatt said:


> Walmart's philosophy toward books may have changed, but it wasn't so long ago that someone I knew got dumped by his trad publisher because of a Walmart announcement that the store would only carry bestsellers.


I have no idea when this was or what was actually said to your friend. Knowing what I know about WalMart's contracts, it would not have even been contractually legal for the publisher to say that if it was true. This is one of those statements that sounds like a skeever wanting to deflect blame to someone else instead of telling the author the truth.

I work in contract packaging. And while I can't get into specifics, WalMart doesn't work this way. At least, they haven't for the last five years. They have been focused on localized demographics for a lot of products, including books. They can basically hand a publisher a list of the type of books they want for each individual store based on the demographics of the area the store is in. The books you find on a shelf in one town can be very different from the books you find ten miles over in another town based on demographic differences.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

It is not about being snobby. It is about branding, demographics, corporate values and emphases, and core competencies. Saying that Amazon customer demographics are more favorable to book sales, and that Amazon knows more about book sales than any other mass retailer, is not about looking down on anybody. It is just fact, and fact that is pretty important in making business decisions. Nobody else also acts as a publisher, for example. Nobody price tests books and analyzes pricing the way Amazon does.

It is not about individuals. It is about overall statistics. Authors really should look with a hard eye at where their (individual their) customer base is more likely to be. Knowing your customer and where she shops is Marketing 101. Here is the most helpful article I found on comparing the two companies.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/09/15/the-ultimate-retail-matchup-amazon-vs-walmart/#4dfcab3927db

That said, of course putting your eggs into as many baskets as possible is a reasonable choice! But I do not think that was really the question. More like, How big a game changer is this likely to be? Nobody knows. We can only make informed guesses and act appropriately, and the answer may be different depending on your own customer base. But if you will not even analyze customer behavior at different stores, or do a basic market segmentation analysis (which does not have to be anything fancy, just knowing who your customers are, where and how you reach them, and how price sensitive the different groups of them are) for fear that somehow makes you snobby, you cut yourself off from some pretty important information.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have no idea when this was or what was actually said to your friend. Knowing what I know about WalMart's contracts, it would not have even been contractually legal for the publisher to say that if it was true. This is one of those statements that sounds like a skeever wanting to deflect blame to someone else instead of telling the author the truth.
> 
> I work in contract packaging. And while I can't get into specifics, WalMart doesn't work this way. At least, they haven't for the last five years. They have been focused on localized demographics for a lot of products, including books. They can basically hand a publisher a list of the type of books they want for each individual store based on the demographics of the area the store is in. The books you find on a shelf in one town can be very different from the books you find ten miles over in another town based on demographic differences.


It could well be that the publisher was pulling some kind of fast one. The publisher definitely had an easy-out clause and may have wanted an excuse to use it.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

RPatton said:


> The partnership was announced a while ago, and the press-release called for a Walmart branded app to be released around September.
> 
> This isn't a merger. This is Walmart taking Kobo's infrastructure, feeding it into the Walmart branded app and selling ebooks to their US customers. Kobo gets a bigger piece of the US market and Walmart doesn't have to do anything except an app.


Put that way, it doesn't sound as if either has too much to lose. Walmart invests in app development and probably some web site redesign to accommodate the books. Kobo may need to make a few changes on their end to accommodate the branded app. There will be advertising expenses to launch the new program. All of these expenses could be minor compared to the profits involved.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Another point that may be worth thinking about: younger people (and Walmart's shoppers skew younger) are more likely to read on their phones than on dedicated reading devices. As phones get bigger and more multifunctional, that's likely to increase. So which device is better will be less of an issue. Currently, Amazon's devices lead the pack in expert reviews (PCMag 2018, etc.), with Kobo's devices down the list and the Nook at the bottom. The universality of the apps for a store are probably more important going forward, though. I don't know what the Kobo app looks like or how popular it is. 

For me personally, my customers skew older, and they seem to read more on dedicated devices. But if I wrote YA or just romance whose readership skewed younger, I'd be thinking about that.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> It is not about being snobby. It is about branding, demographics, corporate values and emphases, and core competencies. Saying that Amazon customer demographics are more favorable to book sales, and that Amazon knows more about book sales than any other mass retailer, is not about looking down on anybody. It is just fact, and fact that is pretty important in making business decisions. Nobody else also acts as a publisher, for example. Nobody price tests books and analyzes pricing the way Amazon does.


Well, obviously this deal is different for Walmart, being that the eBooks are not necessarily going to be sold inside their stores. Their online customer base, especially for eBooks, may end up different from their in-store one -- even different from their in-store, book purchasing customers.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

jb1111 said:


> Well, obviously this deal is different for Walmart, being that the eBooks are not necessarily going to be sold inside their stores. Their online customer base, especially for eBooks, may end up different from their in-store one -- even different from their in-store, book purchasing customers.


Yes, the online customers could be somewhat different than those who shop in the store, but they will need to have the Kobo e-reader or app to read the ebooks from. I believe the app is free, but they will still need a starting point before they start purchasing their ebooks online at Walmart. If they promote the e-reader in stores that would be one of the major ways customers would be aware of it.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

jb1111 said:


> Well, obviously this deal is different for Walmart, being that the eBooks are not necessarily going to be sold inside their stores. Their online customer base, especially for eBooks, may end up different from their in-store one -- even different from their in-store, book purchasing customers.


That is true. I do think Walmart has a perception issue, but we'll see how big an issue it remains. If all your branding is about low prices, it makes you look like a budget outfit, more like Grocery Outlet. I think Walmart does suffer from that, which is why you see the comments here (it's not about snobbery, I don't think. It's about public perception), even if they are changing their mix of goods now. (I don't know whether they are or not).

That "value" perception may be just fine for some kinds of shopping, but may make customers not think of you first when it comes to things like books. It could also be that there's a sort of "perception lag" that will diminish over time, if Walmart stocks more luxury goods or just higher-end brands.

The problem with that is that those customers do not shop as much on price--they're more quality and service focused. They may be more likely to shop at Bed Bath & Beyond for home goods, for example, than either Amazon or Walmart, because Amazon has a problem with the knockoff companies with fake reviews, and it's hard to know what the quality is of those washcloths from China. I think that's Amazon's big issue to sort out. It doesn't affect books--well, quality and fake reviews do--but it may affect who shops there, and how much of their budget they spend there.

Here's one relevant paragraph from that article. I think price elasticity (or not) depends partly on what kind of books you write. Genre and lots of other things.

***

On the retail side, Amazon tailors itself to a higher income demographic, while a larger proportion of Americans shop at Walmart. During a recession, consumers tend to pull back on the consumption of nonessential goods, which would disproportionately impact Amazon. Walmart's broader base and draw among lower-income customers mean a higher proportion of its basket is comprised of inelastic goods. Ostensibly, a recession will hit Amazon harder because of the amount of luxury goods it sells. If Walmart can maintain profitability as it expands into e-tail, it will be setting itself up to be more recession-proof than Amazon.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

Bill Hiatt said:


> Put that way, it doesn't sound as if either has too much to lose. Walmart invests in app development and probably some web site redesign to accommodate the books. Kobo may need to make a few changes on their end to accommodate the branded app. There will be advertising expenses to launch the new program. All of these expenses could be minor compared to the profits involved.


Exactly.

But I wouldn't put anything past Marc Lore. So I have a feeling that there will be Walmart branded Kobo Readers for sale in every Walmart (if they really wanted to make it rock, they could create a way to buy an ebook in a store and load it directly on to your reader).

Walmart is savvy when it comes to its market demo, even seasonally speaking. A Walmart that sees a different demo during the summer than during the spring or fall, stocks completely different items. At a nearby store, the amount of iPhone products and accessories for sale is overwhelming right now, but come September and the tourists/snowbirds heading out of town, the shift goes right back to being Android heavy. Same with clothing. (I noticed that they put their "cheaper" brands out front during the summer, but their non-Walmart branded but still Walmart brands go out as soon as summer ends. From a social science perspective, it's almost like the store reshapes itself to be what a non-typical Walmart shopper would expect a Walmart to be during the summer, while making sure to keep the items those non-typical shoppers want in stock.) For the right branded series, I could see some serious joint promotions going on between Kobo, the Walmart App, the Walmart store in a specific demo.

And for those who think Walmart shoppers don't read or have e-readers? I just spent 45 minutes the other day telling a small group of readers who all had ereaders about Kobo and that Walmart and Kobo would be working together and how you don't have to buy a book on Amazon to put it on Kindle. (Started out helping an older couple pick a headset for their kindles (both have Voyages) and then a few people wandered over and before you knew it, they were getting a crash course in Calibre and sideloading their ereaders).

A small endcap with the Kobo reader right in the book aisle (and a small wall spot in electronics), and I think it's possible that within 3-5 years Amazon will be dealing with its first real competitor when it comes to ebooks.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

KelliWolfe said:


> That's not really true, though. They tend to pay better, especially at starting wages, than most other places that hire unskilled workers. And their benefits aren't bad if you get on full-time, which isn't that hard to do if you're not a screwup. They accrue vacation and sick time better than the last few jobs I had in IT. I've got several family members working for them - dad, brother, daughter, ex. They've cleaned up their act a lot in the last few years, although like most companies they're hurting in lower and mid-level management positions. Hard to keep good people in those.


I always wondered about the hate toward Walmart, too. They certainly aren't the only store to pay minimum wage and to employ workers part-time so they don't have to pay benefits. I'm not saying that's a _good_ thing, mind you, just that it isn't exactly rare. Heck, I work part-time now for a job that requires an advanced degree but refuses to allow workers over 19 hours per week. And I have a different perspective, maybe, from many when it comes to Walmart killing Main Street.

I grew up poor; dad was a minister, mom was a teacher. Five kids in my family. I've lost track of how many small towns my family lived in over a twelve-year span before I was 17 and moved out. The thing about Main Street in small-town America was - back then, anyway, thirty-plus years ago - that everything seemed to be owned by the same small handful of people. So, the Smith's owned the hardware store, the only clothing store in town, and the mini-mart on the corner. They could charge whatever they wanted, because the only option was to travel an hour or more away to the "city" to buy anything. They, too, paid minimum wage with no benefits. The difference between them and Walmart was that when a Walmart came to town, regular people like my family could actually afford to buy things without having to wait for the annual trip to the big city. The Main Street I grew up around wasn't like the Main Street people say they miss from the pre-Walmart days.

Back to the topic, I suppose - I'd love to see Walmart take a more active role in the book-selling world. I never can get out of one without buying at least one paperback.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Nobody thinks Walmart shoppers don't read. We were talking about market share and relative rates of book buying. Market share is not an absolute. That is why it's called "share."


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

RPatton said:


> Exactly.
> 
> But I wouldn't put anything past Marc Lore. So I have a feeling that there will be Walmart branded Kobo Readers for sale in every Walmart (if they really wanted to make it rock, they could create a way to buy an ebook in a store and load it directly on to your reader).
> 
> ...


All that sounds as if there are many possibilities. I wonder, though, if it would be a smarter choice to do what Amazon does and make the app available on all devices--or are they doing that? Your example, with Calibre and sideloading, makes it sound as if they have only a branded app for Kobo ereaders. One of the clever things about the Amazon ebook ecosystem is that it's not tied to one device. That seems like the best model for Walmart to follow. They could certainly sell Kobo ereaders and encourage their use, but giving a wider range of options would produce a higher market share.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

MClayton said:


> I always wondered about the hate toward Walmart, too. They certainly aren't the only store to pay minimum wage and to employ workers part-time so they don't have to pay benefits. I'm not saying that's a _good_ thing, mind you, just that it isn't exactly rare.


When I was working chain retail, I literally NEVER worked at a store that didn't pay minimum and schedule everyone but management for just-under-full-time hours per week. Heck, the Party City I worked for didn't allow breaks for anything less than a 6 hour shift, and at 6 hours you had to take a half-hour unpaid lunch.

Then I moved to a mom-and-pop store that paid minimum for everyone and nobody got benefits at all regardless of how many hours we worked during the week.


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