# Request for comment on "Help me hit milestone xx" threads in WC



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Hello all, 

  We've been discussing a couple of moderation topics, and are asking for some community input.

  As you all know, we have a general policy of moving self-promo threads to the Book Bazaar. This helps keep the WC conversations free of self-promo posts, which can easily overwhelm the otherwise useful discussions that take place in the WC. 

  So here's the question (and a follow-up):

  1. Should we allow "Help me hit milestone xxx" threads in the WC? Or should we disallow those by either deleting them or moving them to the author's thread in the Book Bazaar..?

  2. If we do allow them, should we limit it to only certain milestones? Like Top 100 in Amazon store, Top 10 in Amazon store, etc...

  The intent here is to find out what our community wants, which may have us updating our policy about this. I feel the second part of the question is important, because if we don't limit it, and the WC becomes overwhelmed with these type of threads, we will all find a diminished value from browsing and participating in the WC. 

  I appreciate your input.


----------



## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

JuliaKent said:


> A long time ago there was an endless tagging thread here. Why not have a single thread where people can posts requests for help with milestones? Corral everything into that thread.


That's a good thought. I haven't even published my first book yet, but I feel like I've learned so much from everyone here that I am happy to help out when someone needs a push. It'd be good to have a place to go when I'm looking to pay back in even a little way how kind everyone is with their advice. I like staying on the good side of the karma.


----------



## KellyHarper (Jul 29, 2012)

JuliaKent said:


> A long time ago there was an endless tagging thread here. Why not have a single thread where people can post requests for help with milestones? Corral everything into that thread.


The NA Promo thread and the Make It Free thread are essentially this. I agree that this might be the best overall way to handle it. I doubt anyone would appreciate all of WC becoming a huge promo center.


----------



## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree that a separate thread seems a good compromise. I wouldn't want the big moments to be forbidden completely--like when Holly was going for #1--they're just too fun.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

One thread to rule them all. 

Or none at all, honestly.

While we're talking about things, I was discussing off-board the posts that are meant to drive traffic (whether genuine or of the spammy variety) to a blog, facebook page or website. Instead of having the convo here. I have to admit the inconsitent modding of those confuses me. Some are moved to the BB and others, that are exactly the same, remain and some are even encouraged. I'm confoozled on that policy.


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

If it's from a long-standing member trying to hit a huge list and they're someone who rarely posts stuff like this, I say let them post. If it's someone whose every post is promo, that'd be a no-no. Good luck figuring the cut-off.

On the point Monique raised, I agree it's annoying when vague blog topics/links are posted to lead people off-site. Personally, I'd only like to see those if a section of the blog is quoted, so people can discuss it without having to click-through, unless they just feel like seeing the whole context. 

But to be clear, the "help me hit..." topic isn't one I have strong feelings about.


----------



## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

I have been confused when I saw so many threads devoted to individual book promotion here in WC, when the forum rules said you were only supposed to promote your book in Book Bazaar. If one author is allowed to have a thread promoting a book in WC, then all authors should be allowed to do it -- however, as already noted, that would risk turning WC into a promotional board.

Maybe the single promotional thread idea would be best, and all authors could post on it. It doesn't seem fair to let some authors have their own promotional threads in WC.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

i think they are self-promo and should be in the Book Bazaar.

as the authors hopefully know, they can change the title of their book bazaar thread, so when they're trying to hit a milestone, they can use that as the title of the thread, and modify their first post.

and that way they will also hopefully be using a link that will help support the kb...


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

These "Help me hit a milestone" posts don't bother me at all. If it's someone who has been around for awhile and contributes a lot, I go and buy a copy and if it is appropriate, I mention it to my FB followers. If it's someone I don't know, I just skip right by it. I guess it would be a "thing" if there were a lot of these, but I haven't seen that to be the case here.


----------



## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

I think one thread would work.  That's a fair compromise for everyone.  I hate seeing some people get passes on the rules and others getting nailed for it.  What's good for one should be good for everyone.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Monique said:


> One thread to rule them all.
> 
> Or none at all, honestly.
> 
> While we're talking about things, I was discussing off-board the posts that are meant to drive traffic (whether genuine or of the spammy variety) to a blog, Facebook page or website. Instead of having the convo here. I have to admit the inconsistent modding of those confuses me. Some are moved to the BB and others, that are exactly the same, remain and some are even encouraged. I'm confoozled on that policy.


Everything Monique said.

Perhaps without realizing it, the moderators allow our superstars to post new threads to their own articles, blogs, facebook pages or websites. Newbies see this and think posting to their own articles, blogs, Facebook pages or websites will be allowed. The poor newbies are understandably confused and hurt when their hands get slapped. Perhaps one thread for all this should be the rule, too.

To be clear, I often find useful and informative links that authors post here to *other people's* articles and blog posts about the publishing industry. The resulting discussions are often illuminative, too. I wouldn't want to stop those. Perhaps a different thread for all those is a good idea, too. This way, we would all know if it's old news or not.

Dara, 
It is a violation of the blogger or article writer's copyright to quote more than a brief snippet here. It makes them lose page views, and many article writers and bloggers get paid per page view.


----------



## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I vote for one thread. I don't mind the help me reach ... threads. It's kind of exciting. But there is always the possibility it can get out of hand. 

One thread worked (mostly) for KDP Select results and for Make it Free. Other things, too.


----------



## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


----------



## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

I think there is a difference between a milestone thread without promo links, and a promo thread with links.  I would suggest you keep the milestone thread as a mega thread on the WC, if you feel you need to relocate one or the other.

My experience with the Book Bazaar is that a hot topic on the WC redirected to the BB quickly dies.  I don't bother anymore to announce new books there.


----------



## Raquel Lyon (Mar 3, 2012)

Shawn Inmon said:


> These "Help me hit a milestone" posts don't bother me at all. If it's someone who has been around for awhile and contributes a lot, I go and buy a copy and if it is appropriate, I mention it to my FB followers. If it's someone I don't know, I just skip right by it. I guess it would be a "thing" if there were a lot of these, but I haven't seen that to be the case here.


This ^

I never venture out of the WC, so if all the threads went to the BB, I wouldn't see them. I love to help my WC friends out when they're trying to reach a goal and would miss the excitement if the threads were removed.

On the flip side, no one wants the WC cluttered with general 'Buy My Book' threads.


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Dara,
> It is a violation of the blogger or article writer's copyright to quote more than a brief snippet here. It makes them lose page views, and many article writers and bloggers get paid per page view.


Yes, I'm aware only a portion can be quoted and even that portion needs to be attributed with a link back. What I'm referring to are the posts that open with "what do you guys think of this?" followed by nothing but a link to that member's personal blog. I see those frequently and am not a fan.

On the main topic, I like the idea of a single thread for all "help me reach XX" posts. What I wouldn't like is to see them shuffled over to the BB, because I don't think most of us venture in there. And if the member is someone who's contributed a lot to the site, I enjoy having a chance to support them and cheer them on. I'm not talking superstars, but the members who've spent months/years sharing sales data, marketing tips, and so on with the rest of us. In those cases, I tend to look the other way when I see a gray area post. But I concur that would be a slippery slope and make extra work for the mods if they had to make determinations on a case-by-case basis. So I cast my vote for a single thread.


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Dara England said:


> Yes, I'm aware only a portion can be quoted and even that portion needs to be attributed with a link back. What I'm referring to are the posts that open with "what do you guys think of this?" followed by nothing but a link to that member's personal blog. I see those frequently and am not a fan.


Honestly, the threads that are thinly veiled attempts to garner personal blog traffic are just self promo by another name. I couldn't agree more with Dara. I don't want to see them. If it's your blog, and you have something informative or cool to say, dump it in the opening post.

I'm afraid to say the matter of there being one rule for some and another rule for others has some credence.


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Colin Taber said:


> I'm afraid to say the matter of there being one rule for some and another rule for others has some credence.


Having said that, I don't want anyone to think I'm having a go at the mods. I used to mod at a different forum/bulletin board, and it's a tough gig and the pay is pretty ordinary. 

Getting back to the OP question, which I assume is particularly aimed at the "push author XXX into the top 100, she's currently on 103!" types of thread. As much as we all would like to help each other, maybe that would be best left to the arena of social media, and not used to clutter the WC.

I'm all for zero tolerance of self promo in its various guises on KBoards, even when enabled by others, otherwise the boundaries become blurred. Sure, if you read author XXX's book and loved it, go post about it in the Book Corner.


----------



## KCHawkings (Jul 20, 2011)

As much as I want to support people, I don't want to be overwhelmed by posts like that. I don't mind occasionally, but as soon as we have people trying for list places, we'll end up being swamped by "Help me get to the top of so-and-so category that nobody really cares about" posts. 

I like the idea of one post where everyone replies, but realistically it won't have much affect because, in no time, the only people who'll actually go on that thread will be people posting and they probably won't read far back into it.


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

I like helping my fellow authors. That's 75% of the reason I'm on WC every day. I'm here the other 25% to learn and help myself do better at writing, promoting, or publishing. I love the WC. I'm here pretty much every day and my favorite threads are the ones where people share their successes. My second favorite ones are where people offer something that might help me, be it a tool or an article or a tip. Whatever it is, I want to hear it. That's why I'm here.

I don't go to the Book Bazaar. That's a reader hangout, and I don't like giving the impression that I'm spamming readers for self-promo reasons so I stay out of there. That's also why I'm not active on Goodreads or the Amazon forums.

So now you know my motivations for the following opinions:

1. I think a single thread for any "help me reach my milestone" posts is a great idea, so long as it's here on the WC. Of course it won't get as many eyes on it as an individual thread will, but it's a good compromise. None of us want this place to become a spam board of self-promo threads, but I want to help my fellow authors find more readers. I'm actively searching for ways to do this, so if there's a thread here for it, I will check it regularly. Does that mean I will help every single person that posts there? No, probably not. I don't have time to go on all the threads every day and I usually only recommend books to my readers that I think they'll like (i.e., similar genre to mine). But if someone wants my help and I can help them, that's what I want to be able to do. Thank you WC for making that easier.

2. I have zero problem with someone posting a note to go join a conversation elsewhere, if the point of it is to help authors or to learn something important as an author. This place is a resource. That's why I come here. Where else am I going to get those links? I don't have time to search the internet for them, so I appreciate authors bringing them to my attention. If they stop showing up here, I'm going to go find the place that hosts them, which drives me away from WC. I think the goal is to keep people here, where they find helpful and useful information. Give those threads a home. Just because someone clicks a link and goes elsewhere, it doesn't mean they don't come back. People always come back to places that offer good resources. Besides, nothing's stopping authors from commenting on the thread here at WC. It happens all the time. A person provides a link off WC, people go read it, then come back and discuss. I can't believe people are complaining about that right now. 

I posted a thread here yesterday telling authors to come join an author-centric thread on my Facebook, for the express purpose of giving them exposure to my readers and vice versa. I see many of my more avid readers have "liked" the post and "liked" some of the author comments. I'd be thrilled to know that someone who reads my books now reads one of these authors' books. This falls under the definition of resource. _I _would like to be a resource for other authors. The best way to reach my fans is through my Facebook page. The best way to reach authors is through the the WC. Obviously I'm not the only one who realizes this as we daily have posts about book bundles, anthologies, cross-promotions, and many other vehicles meant to connect our readers with other authors.

For those of you who have a problem with that kind of thread like I posted (from your posts on the subject, I assume you are: Phoenix, Monique, Cherise, Dara, Colin, ...and probably several behind the scenes) , I have to wonder why. Why do you take issue with authors giving other authors exposure to their readers? Surely you don't expect them to do it here at the WC. This is not a place for readers, although I know they're welcome here. This is a writer's cafe where we talk about the world of writing and being writers/publishers. Honestly, I'm trying to figure out why anyone would take issue with this practice, and I can't come up with a single reason that makes sense.

The general atmosphere or mood on this board shifts over time, kind of like a roller coaster. There will be months it's a great place to be with all kinds of positivity and support and helping hands. Then it slowly starts drifting in the other direction, with negativity, unkind comments, and outright attacks. Last time it happened, I jumped in and made it a point to post a bunch of very positive, hopefully helpful threads, trying to bolster things and get them going in another direction. WC is my writer home and I love it here when it's working and everyone's being good to each other. Thankfully lots of other authors jumped in and did the same and things turned around. It stayed really positive until recently, the past month or two.

Someone told me privately that another forum's members have recently left there and joined here. Maybe that's part of the reason why the forum seems to be swinging back in the dark direction, but I'm seeing garbage attitudes from long-time members of the forum too, so that's not the only source.

I have left the WC for extended periods of time in the past when it's gotten like this. Not only do I find the negativity very bad for my writing mojo, I also don't like that the people swimming in that kind of cesspool of jealousy and unhappiness are often tempted to interfere in an author's livelihood by posting sock-puppet reviews and talking to people behind their backs, saying unkind and untrue things.

Last time this happened, I jumped in and tried to help turn things around. This time, I'm not sure I have it in me. That expression 'no good deed goes unpunished' comes to mind. I have a ton of books to write this year and promotions to do and trips to take to support my writing. I don't have the time or the desire to spend time in dark places, and I'm quite sure my readers won't appreciate it.

I hope that Harvey and his gang of trusty mods can get this forum back on track and do the right thing by the authors who come here to help and be helped. And I hope we can all take a step back and decide what kind of place we want the WC to be and then make a commitment to making it that place through our own actions and words. If you're the one posting all those positive comments, sharing things that work for you, and pointing us to places or resources that will help us, please keep doing that. If you're the one bashing people or what they do, criticizing when criticism has not been asked of you, and being negative about other authors because their actions or level of success doesn't meet with your approval, please stop doing that. You're going to ruin a great place and a great resource for people who really need it.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

A separate thread seems like a reasonable compromise.


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> ...I have zero problem with someone posting a note to go join a conversation elsewhere, if the point of it is to help authors or to learn something important as an author... ... I can't believe people are complaining about that right now.
> 
> I posted a thread here yesterday telling authors to come join an author-centric thread on my Facebook...
> 
> For those of you who have a problem with that kind of thread like I posted (from your posts on the subject, I assume you are: Phoenix, Monique, Cherise, Dara, Colin, ...and probably several behind the scenes) , I have to wonder why. Why do you take issue with authors giving other authors exposure to their readers?


Hi Elle,

I didn't see your thread yesterday, so it was not what I was referring to. I gave an example in my post as to what I felt we should steer away from.

I'm sorry you took my post as a negative comment on your participation here.


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Colin Taber said:


> Hi Elle,
> 
> I didn't see your thread yesterday, so it was not what I was referring to. I gave an example in my post as to what I felt we should steer away from.
> 
> I'm sorry you took my post as a negative comment on your participation here.


No worries, Colin. My mistake.


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> No worries, Colin. My mistake.


No worries, indeed! Wow, you _sound _like an Australian!


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Colin Taber said:


> No worries, indeed! Wow, you _sound _like an Australian!


That's what I get for hanging around with an Australian in my free time, I guess.  Be glad I left the 'mate' part off at the end.


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> That's what I get for hanging around with an Australian in my free time, I guess.  Be glad I left the 'mate' part off at the end.


Ha!


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

KellyHarper said:


> The NA Promo thread and the Make It Free thread are essentially this. I agree that this might be the best overall way to handle it. I doubt anyone would appreciate all of WC becoming a huge promo center.


I am a beneficiary of such threads, especially the "make it free" and I reciprocate to pay the community back. I think these kinds of threads are useful, but only as long as they are modded. The make it free thread is the perfect example of how the situation should be handled I think. It's neat and tidy, there is only one of it, and everyone knows what it is from the subject.

I like milestone announcements when they aren't a sneaky advertisement. If I say Book A at this link of mine is doing really well! Then that's spammy and get it out of there! But if I say, I reached my 30k sales milestone this year (no links etc) then I am okay with that.

I helped out yesterday with tweeting a book link. I was happy to do it, but if these kinds of things start to proliferate I would not be happy. It was precisely because it was one of us and an unusual request that I found it had merit and I went and helped out. I can see that perhaps this exact situation should be in the Book Bazaar, but then how would a link to it be handled? Moving it there would bury it wouldn't it? If not, then move it to the bazaar leaving a link to it behind.

I don't think deletion is required, but I would be in favour of havng it in a mega thread like the make it free.

How would an announcement of a rafflecopter be handled? I think the same way yes?


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

markecooper said:


> I am a beneficiary of such threads, especially the "make it free" and I reciprocate to pay the community back. I think these kinds of threads are useful, but only as long as they are modded. The make it free thread is the perfect example of how the situation should be handled I think. It's neat and tidy, there is only one of it, and everyone knows what it is from the subject.


The make it free thread is a good example of something that works. If my memory is correct, threads like that actually came about because of WC being overwhelmed with "My book XXX is FREE today" threads when Select first began.

It's that kind of scenario I'm worried about. At the time about half the threads were free announcements.

I don't have any problem when a member hits a milestone and wants to post a "I hit a 50,000 sales" thread. Milestone threads aren't there everyday, and that situation is a far cry from the explosion of "free" threads that happened at the beginning of Select


----------



## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I think a milestone thread here in the WC would make sense. If you move it to the Book Bazaar that would be a shame because I never go there, and think of it as a place for readers.

Occasional milestone posts like the one yesterday are really fun to participate in. It's great to see someone do well and to hit a list, a big list like USA today or NYTimes.

Perhaps some definition around what would be an appropriate 'milestone' would make sense. I'd hate to see posts like this on a daily basis, which I could see happening if there are no parameters around what is appropriate to post.


----------



## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

JuliaKent said:


> A long time ago there was an endless tagging thread here. Why not have a single thread where people can post requests for help with milestones? Corral everything into that thread.


Concur.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm torn. I do like to see people reach big milestones and lists. That's fun. But I've seen cases where mods have moved as self-promo a thread that says, "Hey, my new book is out and I'm hoping to get my first (1/10/100) sales. Please help!" Is it really fair to let the person who already has a hundred thousand sales use the forum that way because the milestone at the end is impressive, but not the person with the newly released book? I don't know.

The big issue, as with links to blog posts, FB posts, etc., is simply managing it so 1.) it feels fair, and 2.) keeping the forum from being overwhelmed by people pointing to their own books and blogs. I don't envy the moderators in their job keeping the place clean and shiny.


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

The following isn't a dig at anyone in particular - I haven't read the threads referenced above - and it's a comment about the future, rather than the past.

I think it's smart to keep announcements/celebrations/requests to a single thread. As this forum continues to grow, and more writers hit more and more milestones, I could see the front page getting swamped with that kind of stuff and others taking it as an invitation to spam in ever more creative ways.

I'm not saying that anyone making such an announcement had spammy intentions, but I can definitely see how *future* spammers could craft a faux announcement/milestone/request in a similar way to bend the rules.

And I say all this with the full knowledge that I sometimes used to post links to my blog in the main forum, with excerpts for discussion. I stopped doing it for the same reasons - that we were growing fast, and if everyone started doing it then the front page would just be people trying to drive traffic to their blogs.

I'm not usually one for rules and whatnot, but as a community like this grows you have to put some stuff in place. I'm sure that this sometimes cuts out genuine stuff, and might offend some, but I'm also sure we've all seen formerly good forums devolve into spam-fests when rules were unenforced, relaxed, or didn't evolve as the place grew.

So... yeah, I think we should have rules in place. Not so much to prevent anything that's happened to date, but more to stop what is likely to happen if we don't take care.


----------



## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

I'd rather see that kind of stuff limited to one thread. I don't want to wade through self-promo threads. I come to the WC to learn and network with other authors. I see enough self-promo on Twitter and Goodreads.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

One more thought this time purely about self promotion of stuff like blogs and FB. Some of us just have those links in our sigline. Surely that's sufficient?

Regarding other links to outside news and blogs (not self promo). I want them to continue. They spark conversations  and they often have important points to make.


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Thank you for the thoughtful input... it's helpful.

1. Let me take a stab here at where I think we are in terms of consensus:

- Have a single thread for "Help me hit my next milestone!"
- Have that thread in the WC (not in the Book Bazaar)

To be decided:
1.A - Allow *any* milestone? e.g. "Help me hit the top 100 in Romance > Historical > Medieval > Highland > etc. > etc."
1.B - Restrict how often an author posts a new milestone plea in the thread? (Note: if so, I'm concerned about moderator workload in monitoring this.)


2. A separate discussion has arisen about posts that are invitations to visit an author's personal page (website / facebook / blog / etc.). I've seen reasonable comments on both sides of this one, and have made a couple of controversial moderation calls on this in the past week. I think more discussion is needed on this, and please do so in a general way -- this isn't about any particular individuals. Some points of discussion:

Our general rule is that a post that simply invites others out to participate in an author personal page is deleted or moved to the Book Bazaar.

Questions:

2.A. Should there be exceptions to this and if so what are those? This week we allowed one such post when we judged it was an invitation to give other authors more exposure, but it came across to some as inconsistent with the general moderation approach. 

2.B. We do allow posts that go "We've been discussing XX in my blog.." and that bring the discussion here (although we discourage links to your personal pages except in your signature area). Does anything need to be adjusted with that moderation approach?


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Harvey said:


> Thank you for the thoughtful input... it's helpful.
> 
> Let me take a stab here at where I think we are in terms of consensus:
> 
> ...


This I feel is best.



Harvey said:


> To be decided:
> - Allow *any* milestone? e.g. "Help me hit the top 100 in Romance > Historical > Medieval > Highland > etc. > etc."
> - Restrict how often an author posts a new milestone plea in the thread? (Note: if so, I'm concerned about moderator workload in monitoring this.)


Allow any milestone would be fine with me IF it is kept within the confines of the megathread concept. As with the make it free thread, people can just not enter the thread if they are not interested in milestones. This might have a side benefit too. There are some people who dislike milestones entirely. There have been a few discussions lately where they have had a detrimental effect on some writer's feeling of self worth and confidence. I do not subscribe to that view, but it's a valid one for some.

If the milestones are kept within the mega thread, there would be no need to worry over the modding load. As with the make it free thread, let people post as they feel they need to. It works there even when Amazon don't do as we wish and we need to repost a request.



Harvey said:


> A separate discussion has arisen about posts that are invitations to visit an author's personal page (website / facebook / blog / etc.). I've seen reasonable comments on both sides of this one, and have made a couple of controversial moderation calls on this in the past week. I think more discussion is needed on this, and please do so in a general way -- this isn't about any particular individuals. Some points of discussion:
> 
> Our general rule is that a post that simply invites others out to participate in an author personal page is deleted or moved to the Book Bazaar.
> 
> ...


I think B is the perfect approach. Option A is more problematic in that it's a perceptual thing more than a "real" problem (so far at least) I actually think the post you are referring to was fine, but I can see how some would see the modding as inconsistent. I think all you can do is judge and mod on a case by case basis where things are borderline. I am 100% confident in the mods ability, based upon past performance not blind faith.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

The thing about a dedicated thread is that many don't watch the dates. They might think they are helping someone hit a milestone that needed the help months ago.

I don't mind those threads and think they should just fade away after their usefulness, or maybe locked.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

If I started a thread titled "Buy my book", it'd be deleted in a heartbeat. But these "help me hit milestone X" threads, particularly about hitting a sales rank or category rank, are just that: Buy My Book (Insert Reason Here). So requests to buy your book, not allowed unless you have a special reason? That is my issue. Some people get to be more special. Everything becomes a judgement call. "Well, this person's been helpful, and he phrased the request nicely, so this request for hitting 1 billion sales milestone is fine...don't know this person here, only 100 posts, so let's get rid of that one...hitting 50 sale milestone, hrm, is that really a milestone? Are certain milestones more worthy? Maybe a milestone threshold for suddenly becoming valid? And this lady here is requesting sales for someone else she knows and likes, so does that make it okay?"

The same logic applies to review averages and numbers whatnot as well, though I think threads asking for reviews tend to be treated a little bit more gently (because at least they don't take money out of people's pockets). My own totally unnecessary opinion is that if you're going to allow them, you allow them all, and you cram 'em into one thread. Either that, or get rid of them (ALL of them) completely. Remove any sort of arbitrary judgment, favoritism, etc, as well as any possible chance to try to play the blame-the-mods game.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I have to post an apology here. I posted a link to my website recently, because I wrote the post in an attempt to help out folks who'd mentioned they were struggling with blurb-writing. I didn't realize that linking was not kosher and that I should just have copied & pasted the info here. I'll do that in future.

(I don't get enough website traffic to worry about the numbers, so never thought of it not being OK. Sorry!)

The ideas coming up here sound reasonable to me.


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

With the WC I am of the mind of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." And I guess I'm in the minority.

I have zero problem with TG's thread yesterday about help to reach her milestone and I don't think it cluttered-up the Cafe at all. Also, she is always ready to help others in this community and many here were happy to give back. Just don't see a problem there. I don't even read romance--but now I've got one to read.

The real problem I think if new people use it to spam and I've seen some of those. Some are creative.There I think the rule of common sense should apply. Like pornography--you know it when you see and I'm sure Judges Betsy and Ann know what spam looks like.

I guess you could corral or segregate milestones to one thread, but it does subtract from the WC's immediacy and sense of community in my humble opinion. I doubt I would even bother to click on that thread.

Then we have Elle's post inviting authors to comment at her FB page about research and the NSA. I really don't think she did that to drive authors to her FB page for any reason other than to give them a chance to be visible to her many readers and possibly some of her readers might be interested in that author.

For any author interested in a little extra visibility and discoverability it was a good free deal. Few authors have as many readers--I don't see the downside. I saw it as a generous offer. If an author with a similar number of readers on their FB page invites other authors to post on a topic I don't see any problem.

When authors help each other that is a community.


----------



## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> If I started a thread titled "Buy my book", it'd be deleted in a heartbeat. But these "help me hit milestone X" threads, particularly about hitting a sales rank or category rank, are just that: Buy My Book (Insert Reason Here). So requests to buy your book, not allowed unless you have a special reason? That is my issue. Some people get to be more special. Everything becomes a judgement call. "Well, this person's been helpful, and he phrased the request nicely, so this request for hitting 1 billion sales milestone is fine...don't know this person here, only 100 posts, so let's get rid of that one...hitting 50 sale milestone, hrm, is that really a milestone? Are certain milestones more worthy? Maybe a milestone threshold for suddenly becoming valid? And this lady here is requesting sales for someone else she knows and likes, so does that make it okay?"
> 
> The same logic applies to review averages and numbers whatnot as well, though I think threads asking for reviews tend to be treated a little bit more gently (because at least they don't take money out of people's pockets). My own totally unnecessary opinion is that if you're going to allow them, you allow them all, and you cram 'em into one thread. Either that, or get rid of them (ALL of them) completely. Remove any sort of arbitrary judgment, favoritism, etc, as well as any possible chance to try to play the blame-the-mods game.


^ Agreed with this.

If the mods decide to allow these types of threads, then perhaps we can make a subforum within the Writer's Cafe specifically for that rather than cluttering up the main forum with it? If we allowed those milestone posts here in the main forums, then the posts that actually contain information will probably be pushed down faster than you can blink, just like in the Book Bazaar.


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> If I started a thread titled "Buy my book", it'd be deleted in a heartbeat. But these "help me hit milestone X" threads, particularly about hitting a sales rank or category rank, are just that: Buy My Book (Insert Reason Here). So requests to buy your book, not allowed unless you have a special reason? That is my issue. Some people get to be more special. Everything becomes a judgement call. "Well, this person's been helpful, and he phrased the request nicely, so this request for hitting 1 billion sales milestone is fine...don't know this person here, only 100 posts, so let's get rid of that one...hitting 50 sale milestone, hrm, is that really a milestone? Are certain milestones more worthy? Maybe a milestone threshold for suddenly becoming valid? And this lady here is requesting sales for someone else she knows and likes, so does that make it okay?"


You should be in the library? Ya got a point there.


----------



## callan (Feb 29, 2012)

PamelaKelley said:


> ... Perhaps some definition around what would be an appropriate 'milestone' would make sense. I'd hate to see posts like this on a daily basis, which I could see happening if there are no parameters around what is appropriate to post.


Especially since a milestone for some of us is selling more books to strangers than to family and friends


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

RM Prioleau said:


> ^ Agreed with this.
> 
> If the mods decide to allow these types of threads, then perhaps we can make a subforum within the Writer's Cafe specifically for that rather than cluttering up the main forum with it?


Please no, not THIS again. No to subforums.

We want things to be found, not another wilderness and unused subforum that no one visits. You might as well just delete the threads rather than do that. The idea of collating all threads of a type into mega threads actually helps with finding things not the opposite. With good subject lines like the make it free thread, it become instantly recognisable and easily searchable. They become familiar sights. So much so, you don't even have to think about the words to put in the search box after a while.

As for subforums... When was the last time any of us visited Book Bazaar let alone posted in it? It was more than a year for me, must be. I rarely visit any board except WC and the one where readers chat about what they're reading. Subs, and subs of subs subs are worthless.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I vote for one big thread helping authors reach milestones in the WC. That should take care of the clutter, and I don't mind it not being restricted to certain milestones.


----------



## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Judgment calls never work. Why? Because one person may look at an author's post and feel that it is a blatant attempt at self promo. Others, who may know that author longer and/or better, know that is far from the truth. Some feel the post is honest and forthright, others feel it shouldn't be allowed. For some who tend to think more negatively, _every post _from anyone with any success is somehow a veiled attempt at self promo. It's asking too much of the mods to be the bad guy on something like this.

This makes me think that my post last week in regards to the insulting email I received from a reader may have been discussed behind the scenes. Even though I did not link to my blog, it could be construed as an attempt at self promo though I assure you, it wasn't. I was genuinely devastated and sick to my stomach over the way I felt my integrity was attacked. I really didn't even think through posting about it here. This is the first place I think of that contains peers who can relate. And I'll say that the support I received on the thread from other authors absolutely astonished me and took the sting away. Looking back, now I wonder how many kb'ers thought it shouldn't be allowed. Lastly, I wasn't perturbed at all about TexasGirl's post yesterday. Last night, I was discussing it with another (newer) kb'er about how supportive kboards is now compared to just a year ago, and how it's become a place where we can come together and help each other reach new levels of success.

I hope we can find a way to keep doing that. I don't know the best way to do it and like others have said, I don't envy Harvey and the mods for having to sort through to a decision that will satisfy all.


----------



## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

markecooper said:


> As for subforums... When was the last time any of us visited Book Bazaar let alone posted in it? It was more than a year for me, must be. I rarely visit any board except WC and the one where readers chat about what they're reading. Subs, and subs of subs subs are worthless.


I've been to the BB once and posted, and I won't post again. As soon as I posted my thread, it was bumped down almost to the next page upon hitting the submit button. Now people are there bumping their own threads hundreds of times, which is fine, I guess, because that's the place to do it. I'd rather not see the WC cluttered with this. If this is going to be allowed, then either restrict it to a single thread, or make a sub-forum. I come to the WC looking for information and to learn, not for self-promos. If I am looking for a good book to read, then I will go the BB.

I've gone to many of the other sub-forums around Kboards and posted. It's not about hiding threads. It's about content organization and management.

And as a previous poster mentioned, we technically have our self-promos in our signatures. Every time we make a post, someone sees our books.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm okay with allowing them.  I like the opportunity to help out a fellow author when and where I can.  I don't spend much time in Book Bazaar, so I'd miss those opportunities if the threads moved.

I'm also okay with any milestone being allowed...but I don't pitch in and help on ones I don't want to contribute to.  I know some folks do feel obligated to help out with any help that's asked for, and it could get exhausting or annoying if somebody's asking for help with every milestone that comes along.  I'm not one of those people -- if I'm not naturally interested in that book or that author, I don't feel like I must help.  But I can see how others might, so moderating the types of help allowed might be worth considering.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Either allow them or don't allow them, because nobody will see them if you stick them in a specific thread or section.

I'm on the Kindle Boards every day now, commenting and contributing to the discussions.  I don't get on here and do nothing but self promo.  So I feel like if I ever *do* self promo, people like me should be allowed.

But whatever, either allow the threads or don't allow them.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

callan said:


> Especially since a milestone for some of us is selling more books to strangers than to family and friends


This sums it up in a nutshell. The people who most need a hand are the same people who are least likely to be given one.

I don't like the idea of a forum where some members are more equal than others.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I swear to God, I had no idea we had "help me hit XXX milestone" threads. Guess they just never registered. So, obviously they're not bothering me.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

One thread for all 'help me hit X milestone' threads sounds fairest.  For me, if it's an active poster who doesn't spam & it's a significant milestone, I don't mind them at all.  However I do see the need for fairness, because knowing where to draw the line would be a tough call (and everyone would draw it in a different place.)

As for the "Check out this link" posts, for me, it depends on what it's about, and how it's worded.  We don't need a new thread for "Check out my latest blog post"  As has been mentioned, there's a single thread for that.  However, I don't have a problem with someone posting their whole (writing related) blog post as a new thread and linking to their blog in case people want to join the discussion there, but I think it's good manners, when you're the author of the post, to also hold the discussion here on Kboards.  

It's the links with only one line that bug me the most - "Read my opinions on free in my latest blog post! *link*" as a thread starter is no better than, "Buy my book!"

For what it's worth, Rosalind's post didn't bother me.  It had some personal chat as well as "Check out my blog post" - plus, it was on a topic that people have recently been seeking information about.  So I viewed it as helpful.  Likewise, though Elle was inviting people to join in a discussion off-site, she was offering authors the opportunity to engage with readers who might be interested in their work.  In some cases, I think context is important.  If a link brings more to the table than boosting the poster's web stats, then I don't have a problem with it.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

I think a mod's job is made more difficult by allowing exceptions based on "class" or "rank." Where's the cut-off? What's the intent? Who's worthy and who isn't?

I started hanging here back when Steel Magnolia was an eye twinkle and I was selling 20 books a month because I felt I had a voice here no matter how many books I'd sold. The single thread each month for how many books had been sold that month was inspirational to understand the possibilities. I think milestones are extremely important -- for everyone. But I also think keeping them to a single thread makes housekeeping easier.  

"Help me sell xx so I can make a milestone" threads cross the line, imo. What happens if that milestone isn't achieved? That author has still made anywhere from a few cents to a few hundred dollars by drumming business here. If the occasional post is allowed, who determines who's worthy? How active does the poster need to be? How successful? What's the line as to which milestone it is? Most of our SMP authors come close to making a major list every month. Should I be allowed to hawk that each time? "Well, dang, Author X didn't quite make it last time despite your best efforts, KB, but this month she's even closer with a different book. Please help again!" Repeat monthly. I know a number of authors in this type of situation where a major milestone is within grasp from a single title or a box set, and the number I know is a relatively small percentage. I avoid asking for help here, because my understanding is that type of self-promo is against policy. If it becomes policy, well, I have an obligation to the authors I work with to promote them, so I will. But how is that fair to a half-dozen authors each day who have a BB ad and who really, really want to add, say, "Amazon Top 100" to their resume and are told that's not a significant enough milestone or the author isn't significant enough? Or it is significant enough, so we have a half-dozen or more pleas every day here to support these books? We don't have many of these types of posts now because most of us see it as against policy, so we don't post.

Blog post and FB topics, imo, should be discussed on WC. Driving folk to Facebook, especially, is a slippery slope. First, mods will need to determine intent: Is the invitation open for a legitimate discussion and meet-and-greet, or is the purpose simply to game the FB algos to get more interaction on the page to ensure posts get seen in fans' feeds? For the legitimate meet-and-greet, what determines which author is allowed to invite others over to play? Are the 5000 fans Author X has somehow better than the fans that 5 authors with 1000 each have? Anyone who has a FB page has the potential to turn a fan onto someone else's work. I like the idea of a single thread where anyone who has a topic open to author participation can post. Where everyone's fans are treated equally.

While some may consider my level-playing-field attitude garbage, please note I've contributed my share plus to helping fellow authors, and that I'm likely to be considered one of the "haves". My intent is not to squelch helpful things, but to make tactics either accessible to all or accessible to none. I think trying to find the divide for those entitled to post and those who aren't will prove a much bigger headache in the long run.


----------



## T.K. (Mar 8, 2011)

I like the single thread idea, too. I enjoy helping everyone here and seeing their successes, but if it was moved I'd never see it.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I think one thread for reaching milestones would be good.  Also one thread for how do I get reviews would be nice.  Perhaps a thread on good books I have read by Indies over here not in the bc.


----------



## Mackenzie Morgan (Dec 3, 2010)

C.C. Kelly said:


> *I don't think anything should be done to change anything - leave it as is.*
> 
> In this case, the thread was started by someone who has always given back around here, done so for a long time and is well respected. I've seen similar threads from some of the big names on here - and that is super cool. Not only are they fun to read, but we get to participate in their success - help push them up to the next rung, so to speak.
> 
> ...


^^^
This.

Personally, I don't think the WC is broken, but I think too much tinkering just might break it.


----------



## Harriet Schultz (Jan 3, 2012)

Elle,

Thank you. It's the generous info-sharing by other writers that makes the WC so valuable.


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

BTW, Texas Girl's sales were helped tremendously by the thread, and she came back and thanked everyone.  She is also someone who is helpful to newbies here on the Kindle Boards.  

I don't think the occasional "Help me hit milestone" thread from someone like that is a crime.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey, haven't been on line much the last couple days, not feeling well.  

I want to clarify a couple of things...

We've had the rule for awhile that threads that ask for purchases or downloads to hit a milestone should be done in the Book Bazaar.  Those are promotional.  That has been discussed in the past.  The question is more threads like TexasGirl's thread, which definitely did not ask for purchases but retweets and such.

The other point I want to make is about the Book Bazaar.  Most people who regularly browse the Bazaar do so by the "new" indicator.

Sent from my Fire HDX7


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Joliedupre said:


> BTW, Texas Girl's sales were helped tremendously by the thread, and she came back and thanked everyone. She is also someone who is helpful to newbies here on the Kindle Boards.
> 
> I don't think the occasional "Help me hit milestone" thread from someone like that is a crime.


Of course it isn't. I've certainly gone out of my way to help authors I like hit a milestone or share a new release or whatever. The question here isn't should TG or Elle or any number of helpful members be able to post "help me achieve_______" posts. The question is where do you draw the line? And should the moderators be put in a position of having to choose who is worthy?

I think it's an all or nothing situation. Either everyone is allowed or no one is allowed. Personally, I think one thread where everyone can ask for promotional help is the way to go if this is going to be allowed.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I sympathized with Texas Girl and tweeted her request... but I am still not comfortable with posts like that. I feel that it would not be allowed by someone who was at the bottom of the rankings or new to the forum. It seems a bit too much like high school.

I think to be fair to everyone, there should be a single thread for such requests.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> *I don't think anything should be done to change anything - leave it as is.*
> 
> I understand the need to think in terms of 'heading it off at the pass', but the thread in question wasn't about buying the book, it was about fb, tweets - spreading the promo. And that is the same way the NA Cross-Promo thread works - the cross-pollination of fans.
> 
> ...


So that means new members can't advertise their books, but we old members can?

I am just not comfortable with that. It sounds very much like a clique.

ETA: And to make it clear, I think someone asking for spreading the word for a Hugo should be treated the same as everyone else, however admired and liked he is. (Although I doubt he would do so) I do not think there should be tiers of privilege in WC.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> We've had the rule for awhile that threads that ask for purchases or downloads to hit a milestone should be done in the Book Bazaar. Those are promotional. That has been discussed in the past. The question is more threads like TexasGirl's thread, which definitely did not ask for purchases but retweets and such.


I personally don't see a difference in this context.


----------



## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

How about, a single thread BUT with curation? Someone could gather up all books that need to reach a certain milestone and post them with links. People willing to help could take those links and post them on their blogs/FB/Twitter. They would edit the first post also, so that the last curation thread would always be the first post on the page.

That's something Harvey could code for us, I bet. That way it would be easier to set limits in frequency.

Thoughts?


----------



## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Where's the cut-off? [...] Who's worthy and who isn't?
> 
> [...]
> 
> "Help me sell xx so I can make a milestone" threads cross the line, imo.[...] But how is that fair to a half-dozen authors each day who have a BB ad and who really, really want to add, say, "Amazon Top 100" to their resume and are told that's not a significant enough milestone or *the author isn't significant enough*? [emphasis added]


Exactly what @Phoenix wrote.



Edward W. Robertson said:


> I don't like the idea of a forum where some members are more equal than others.


+1000



Joliedupre said:


> [...] So I feel like if I ever *do* self promo, people like me should be allowed.


And that's how it starts.

A single thread or none for people trying to reach milestones, please.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> I personally don't see a difference in this context.


From the conversation here, some don't think there's a difference and some do. We were discussing it in Admin, which is why Harvey posted the question here. We have a clear rule about "buy my book" posts; but the posts don't always ask for that. We are trying to be consistent and require fewer "judgment calls."

Just from the disparity of opinion here, I'm not sure that's possible.

Betsy

Sent from my Fire HDX7


----------



## 90daysnovel (Apr 30, 2012)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> I think a mod's job is made more difficult by allowing exceptions based on "class" or "rank." Where's the cut-off? What's the intent? Who's worthy and who isn't?
> 
> I started hanging here back when Steel Magnolia was an eye twinkle and I was selling 20 books a month because I felt I had a voice here no matter how many books I'd sold. The single thread each month for how many books had been sold that month was inspirational to understand the possibilities. I think milestones are extremely important -- for everyone. But I also think keeping them to a single thread makes housekeeping easier.
> 
> ...


To add to this, what about the hypothetical situation where author A posts asking for help, and gets it, only to prevent author B who didn't ask for help gets bumped by author A? There's a cut off on the lists - and helping one person make it will by definition cause someone else not to. It's not unforeseeable that both those individuals could be members here.


----------



## Katy (Dec 16, 2010)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> This sums it up in a nutshell. The people who most need a hand are the same people who are least likely to be given one.
> 
> I don't like the idea of a forum where some members are more equal than others.


^^ 
This.


----------



## Cege Smith (Dec 11, 2011)

I want to say thanks to Harvey and the mods for bringing the question out to the WC members- that's one thing that I really value about this forum is that I do feel like our opinions are heard and appreciated by the mods. It also gives us an opportunity to share our thoughts on something that we might have been questioning ourselves, but weren't comfortable bringing up. For the record, I'd never want to be a mod- it's a tough job!

I see lots of shades of grey on this issue. Now that the WC is more visible, we're likely going to see a lot more people joining us (especially once they see all the great info that is shared here). While older members may be more accepting of some of the "grey"-shaded posts because we know the OP, seen him/her around, know the quality of info they share, new members aren't going to know that and allowing those posts to stand as is I think invites the perception of favoritism. 

I like the idea of one thread. I actually think it'll help me help others because I don't always have the time to be on here and see all the good stuff happening. So I rely on the "NA promo thread" and the "I posted on my blog" type threads to help keep me organized. And- one thread gives us a place for people who weren't comfortable asking for help before a place to do so without feeling like they might be crossing a line. In my mind, that's a win-win.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> From the conversation here, some don't think there's a difference and some do. We were discussing it in Admin, which is why Harvey posted the question here. We have a clear rule about "buy my book" posts; but the posts don't always ask for that. We are trying to be consistent and require fewer "judgment calls."
> 
> Just from the disparity of opinion here, I'm not sure that's possible.
> 
> ...


Possible or not to manage opinion, the situation can be at the very least tidied up by simply saying, "It's allowed in the WC mega thread by everyone, nowhere else in WC." In this way, everyone is treated equally, the board stays as it is and full of all kinds of interesting things, it prevents proliferation and too many of the same kinds of threads, and its EASY to find what you want. The new button means that no matter how many milestone posts are added to the mega thread, I can always be sure I won't miss any.


----------



## 57280 (Feb 20, 2012)

Thanks for asking, Harvey.

I've been helped a lot on this forum. By Elle, by TexasGirl, and others.

I just don't see a problem. I don't see an abuse of the system at all. 

I just hope we don't make helpful authors feel badly. After all her contributions here, I hope TexasGirl isn't feeling like she's done something wrong.   Their posts keep me on this forum. 

Perhaps a series of individual threads for certain milestones would work. But those long threads are really hard to wade through. 

Maybe it's me, but I'm not bothered. I like the WC just the way it is!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I do think a mega thread is the consensus opinion and a good idea.  But I also know that eventually some thread will be created that doesn't cleanly fit but that some people think should be in there and some don't.  It's the way life works.

Betsy

Sent from my Fire HDX7


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Casper Bogart said:


> Thanks for asking, Harvey.
> 
> I've been helped a lot on this forum. By Elle, by TexasGirls, and others.
> 
> ...


No one wants to make anyone feel bad. This is not a criticism of Texas Girl. She didn't do anything wrong, but it does bring up a concern about keeping things fair. Should the same kind of thread be allowed by someone who has not helped people a lot, or should we have levels of privilege? I think that is a very legitimate concern.


----------



## 57280 (Feb 20, 2012)

tkkenyon said:


> I'm just going to concur.
> 
> I tried to say all this, but CC Kelly said it better.
> 
> TK


You both said it well. I add my voice to yours.

But it's Harvey's House. Nice of him to ask--but it's his call.

And I'll go one further, CC: Every time an Indie makes a major list or achieves that next major accomplishment, an angel gets her wings.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Having one set of rules for "helpful" or "successful" people and another for those who don't make this arbitrary cut or any other class system troubles me deeply.

I also don't see that much of a difference in threads that ask people to buy their books or ask people to convince other people to buy their books. Both are clearly self-promotional.


----------



## Jerri Kay Lincoln (Jun 18, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> I have to post an apology here. I posted a link to my website recently, because I wrote the post in an attempt to help out folks who'd mentioned they were struggling with blurb-writing. I didn't realize that linking was not kosher and that I should just have copied & pasted the info here. I'll do that in future.


That post was extremely informative and helpful. I don't think that's what they're talking about here.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I agree that consistency is the key. Personally, I like TexasGirl and find her a helpful, interesting poster. It's super cool to watch how much her hard work and talent have been paying off, and I hope she hits those lists. So my concern is really just that things be fair all around. A single thread that has calls to action sounds like a great idea. We could also use it for things like Kick Starter campaigns or Greg's "Help a Disabled Author Start a Zombie Revolution" thread. I've contributed in my own small way to several things like this before and like the idea of having a single place where I can go and jump in those times I see a way to help.


----------



## olefish (Jan 24, 2012)

Casper Bogart said:


> Thanks for asking, Harvey.
> 
> I've been helped a lot on this forum. By Elle, by TexasGirl, and others.
> 
> ...


Yep me three. Also agree with CC Kelly.

Impressiveness trumps concerns about privilege or favoritism in my opinion.

If anybody, old or new, can post a promo help for any level of rank attainment in a megathread, then I would miss knowing about the very rare occurrence of someone that is within reaching distance of the top 100 overall. I'm more in favor of a rank cutoff and a standardized list of milestones.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

olefish said:


> Yep me three. Also agree with CC Kelly.
> 
> Impressiveness trumps concerns about privilege or favoritism in my opinion.
> 
> If anybody, old or new, can post a promo help for any level of rank attainment in a megathread, then I would miss knowing about the very rare occurrence of someone that is within reaching distance of the top 100 overall. I'm more in favor of a rank cutoff and a standardized list of milestones.


But one of the things that makes KB great is that we don't (or shouldn't) treat people differently just because they've sold X number of books and appeared on Y lists. Your helpful post should be just as valid as Hugh Howey's. If we grant special privileges to some writers, while denying that to others, then we'll lose a lot of what makes the KB special. And if we grant everyone the right to post self-promo, it won't be long until the place is inundated with self-promotion. So I think we need one standard, and it needs to err on the side of being more restrictive, rather than less.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> But one of the things that makes KB great is that we don't (or shouldn't) treat people differently just because they've sold X number of books and appeared on Y lists. Your helpful post should be just as valid as Hugh Howey's. If we grant special privileges to some writers, while denying that to others, then we'll lose a lot of what makes the KB special. And if we grant everyone the right to post self-promo, it won't be long until the place is inundated with self-promotion. So I think we need one standard, and it needs to err on the side of being more restrictive, rather than less.


This x eleventy.


----------



## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

One of the reasons I come here is to see exciting news like Texas Girl had. ALso, i thought it was extremely nice of Elle to tell us to post on her facebook page. 

If it's in one thread, I don't know that I'd see it. For instance, I don't look at the Bookbub thread everytime it comes up, or the "are you in the top 100" all the time. 

I like seeing them as separate thread, and I would think newer authors would find motivation in seeing them. 

To me, they're better threads than the CAP LOCK WEDNESDAY or other silly or fun threads that don't really give author motivation or information. In fact, some (Not all) are really kind of a clique, with some people all over each other saying pointless things (although they might be fun to those in the know, and I'm not saying they offend me)and ignoring those who might post and aren't part of the clique. Hey, I'm not saying I don't like silly threads...just that they benefit others less than the ones you are thinking of grouping together. 

Isn't there room for both?


----------



## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

I think the cafe would get incredibly boring fast if it was JUST here's how you do this thread or please answer this question. I like milestone posts and seeing how my fellow authors are doing and quite frankly I'd be less inclined to check out 'Help me Reach Milestone XX' mega-thread because I'd feel obligated to help everyone who posted on that thread.

One thing I would like to see is a mega-thread of 'I've reached milestone XX *FIREWORKS* thread. It'd be great to keep track of author's careers over the years and see them grow. I think Hugh's 'Here's the authors I want to hear from' thread is the closest in nature to that.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> And that's the indie mantra after all, isn't it? Pay it forward? Or sideways or any way that helps further self-publishing.


But it seems to me that what you're suggesting is "pay it up the ladder." That makes me uncomfortable on several levels. Not to mention that determining who is important enough to be allowed to self promote sounds like a moderating nightmare in and of itself.

I agree with a lot of what you said about who makes KB great, but I think one of the biggest factors is that the moderators keep a tight rein on all sorts of behaviors. It can be frustrating at times to see a fascinating thread shut down because the discussion gets a little heated, but if that's the price to be paid to keep it from devolving into mud slinging, it's a small price to pay. The same goes for posts asking for help--and again, I've jumped into a lot of these, happy to get involved. Some threads are perfectly harmless, even useful, in and of themselves.

But once you let the camel's nose into the tent . . .


----------



## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

You either allow all or you allow none. Everything else is a beauty contest.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Surely I'm just needing coffee or something...there's not actually people here who think that all authors here should be equal, just some should be more equal than others, right? Just...right? Why not start giving people little badges and icons next to their name. After 500 helpful posts, you can get the "Humblebrag" badge. After 1,000 helpful posts, you get the "Post About Kickstarter" badge. After 2,000, you get the "Milestone" badge. We can have nice little tiers and rankings and permissions. Screw being helpful, it's all about the community! And part of being a member of community is making sure the people we like get more support than the people we don't like. Or did I miss something?


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> If we had these threads filling up page 1 every day, that would be one thing, but we don't.


I've refrained from these kinds of posts as I always assumed they were against policy. My guess is that's why there aren't a lot of them. If they're deemed OK, I'll be helping to fill page 1 with them as often as possible. 



> I'd hate to see stuff like that disappear because that author got 'unfair treatment' or had to bury the discussion on page 70 of the 'why everyone should buy my book today' thread.





> But when I started a new pen name in a new genre, I feel like I got a lot of support and advice, including help on the NA Cross-Promo thread


If you're interested in helping others or watching careers, then you'll find and visit and contribute to a megathread dedicated to "help me" or "here's a way I can help you", just as you've done with the NA Cross-Promo thread.

If you're not interested in the overall conversation -- say you don't care that newbie John Doe makes their 1000th sale, while you'd want to help trumpet it when your friend Mary Sue makes her 10,000th -- then yes, you'll miss things. I find important information buried in threads all the time. I've buried important observations in threads myself. I expect there's even more information that would interest me that I miss. But what I consider "important" may well bore you to tears.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> But one of the things that makes KB great is that we don't (or shouldn't) treat people differently just because they've sold X number of books and appeared on Y lists. Your helpful post should be just as valid as Hugh Howey's. If we grant special privileges to some writers, while denying that to others, then we'll lose a lot of what makes the KB special. And if we grant everyone the right to post self-promo, it won't be long until the place is inundated with self-promotion. So I think we need one standard, and it needs to err on the side of being more restrictive, rather than less.


Thumbs up to expressing it very well.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

You could have both a “Milestones” mega-thread and a “Cross-Promotional Opportunities” mega-thread. Not ideal, perhaps, but a practical solution. Alternatively, the mods could label all threads of these kinds with those names so everyone knows what they’re getting before they click. 

As for veiled self-promotion, it’s only human nature to grant the benefit of the doubt to old members when it comes to drawing the line. I can’t fault the mods for differential treatment there. But let’s be honest, too. A lot of threads would be locked or shunted off to the Book Bazaar if the poster had been a newbie. Again, I’m not really complaining about it. I’m just saying that moderators can’t be expected to control this aspect of self-promotion without stomping on toes in an arbitrary way. People have to take the initiative and avoid feeding it.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Elle,

Dara described the types of posts I object to also.



Dara England said:


> What I'm referring to are the posts that open with "what do you guys think of this?" followed by nothing but a link to that member's personal blog. I see those frequently and am not a fan.


This is my writer home, too. I love the way we all help each other!


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it is about the inequality of privilege. I think is about objective merit AND how much the member has given back to the community. And sorry JR, but you'd be given more latitude than others, not because of how long you've been here, but because of your contribution. I think that matters a lot. I think we can all agree based on the support that exploded on the thread that Tex is well respected around here and people were happy to be invited to help.
> 
> Why ruin that? Who is 'helped' by eliminating that community participation?


How would the fact that Texas Girl is respected around here be ruined by putting a limitation on that sort of post? Or even people being happy to help? I was happy to do so but I would be just as happy if such requests were all in a single thread.

I suspect that this is an explosion such as the one you mention in your thread just waiting to happen and it is my guess that the discussion in the 'mod cave' was probably spurred by people who quietly complained because they thought it was unfair. (No, I didn't complain but it did set off a twinge of concern about seeing a lot of such threads)


----------



## B Sheridan (Dec 5, 2011)

I agree with everyone who says what's good for one, has to be good for others. So the only matter left is how to organize it if you allow it.

But I have a question for Harvey (or those in admin): Are we talking one mega-thread for "help me reach a milestone" posts AND "Yay, I already made it to this milestone so squee with me" posts? Or just one mega-thread for "help me reach a milestone" posts and people can continue to create a new thread to celebrate milestones already achieved?

B/c I say definitely no to the first idea, yes to the second. 

Oh and on the other topic. If we are going to prevent people from posting all links to their blogs or websites or facebook or whatever because it's too hard to draw the line, that will make me very sad. I find great utility in so much of what's posted and linked to, I've learned so much, and I always return here. This is my hub.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Blake Sheridan said:


> But I have a question for Harvey (or those in admin): Are we talking one mega-thread for "help me reach a milestone" posts AND "Yay, I already made it to this milestone so squee with me" posts? Or just one mega-thread for "help me reach a milestone" posts and people can continue to create a new thread to celebrate milestones already achieved?


I would agree with that. I like seeing the milestone threads, even if it's just the first paid sale or first hundred or whatnot. And the other kind are fine, too. The only thing that bothers me is the direct selling of books to other KBers, which is like going to a party and having the host try to sell you Amway. But something like TexasGirl's is perfectly fine with me, but I do think because of the potential for abuse and the difficulty of drawing lines, this sort of thing should be part of a mega "please help me!" thread.

The other thing is that having such a thread would actually encourage the shy or overly modest to ask for help. I'm sure there are people who could use a hand up but would never ask unless there was a place where that sort of thing was not only allowed, but encouraged. There's value in that, too.



Blake Sheridan said:


> Oh and on the other topic. If we are going to prevent people from posting all links to their blogs or websites or facebook or whatever because it's too hard to draw the line, that will make me very sad. I find great utility in so much of what's posted and linked to, I've learned so much, and I always return here. This is my hub.


I get a lot of use out of links to great blog posts, so this is trickier for me. There's no question that some feel self-promotional and others don't. Again, I would err on the side of caution. I do check out the "Have you posted . . . ?" thread, and suspect many others do, too.


----------



## 57280 (Feb 20, 2012)

This may be a search for a cure for a disease that has not yet presented itself. I'd rather see a _reactionary_ response to a problem if it gets out of hand, then a _proactive_ response to something that just really isn't a problem. The latter might very possibly change the nature of what makes this forum a delight to visit.

BTW, I don't come here expecting democracy. But that's just me. Perhaps the mods have seen an abuse of this space and I'm not seeing it. The fact that Harvey and Ann and Betsy have discussed means they are obviously concerned, so what do I know? It's Harvey's House.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Surely I'm just needing coffee or something...there's not actually people here who think that all authors here should be equal, just some should be more equal than others, right? Just...right? Why not start giving people little badges and icons next to their name. After 500 helpful posts, you can get the "Humblebrag" badge. After 1,000 helpful posts, you get the "Post About Kickstarter" badge. After 2,000, you get the "Milestone" badge. We can have nice little tiers and rankings and permissions. Screw being helpful, it's all about the community! And part of being a member of community is making sure the people we like get more support than the people we don't like. Or did I miss something?


Not bad, but I prefer a ranking system for self-promo threads. The mods can put the grades below in the thread titles and a legend explaining them on the right-hand side of the board.

Grade A. You'd never know this writer has a new book out. But the interest in this well-crafted thread may have spilled over for him, so he's clean. You should model his behaviour.

Grade B. This writer managed to mention his book in the thread in an unobtrusive way, but self-promo was the obvious reason for starting this only mildly interesting thread.

Grade C. This writer dreamt up a way to pander to indies and provoke a reaction from others for the sole purpose of keeping this thread and his book-which is mentioned front and centre-in the spotlight on the WC.

Grade D. This writer re-directs to his blog with a misleading hook. The blog post is little more than an ad for his latest book.

Grade F. The thread actually says "Buy my book!" or "A great new ____ just released!" The tactlessness of it all deserved padlocking.


----------



## SLGray (Dec 21, 2013)

I'm a big fan of fair for everyone. If one person is allowed to ask for help to reach a milestone, I think we all should be able to do it too. But I would definitely support doing that in one big thread rather than everyone getting an individual thread and filling up the board.

I'm like some others in that I like seeing the individual "I did it" threads, though, whether that's 100th sale or 100,000th. I'd rather -not- see those all mashed into a superthread.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Casper Bogart said:


> This may be a search for a cure for a disease that has not yet presented itself. I'd rather see a _reactionary_ response to a problem if it gets out of hand, then a _proactive_ response to something that just really isn't a problem. The latter might very possibly change the nature of what makes this forum a delight to visit.
> 
> BTW, I don't come here expecting democracy. But that's just me. Perhaps the mods have seen an abuse of this space and I'm not seeing it. The fact that Harvey and Ann and Betsy have discussed means they are obviously concerned, so what do I know? It's Harvey's House.


It hasn't been that much of a problem because it's against the rules and most people accept that and don't post threads like that. TG's thead was, techincally, against the rules. It was clear she knew that and was hoping it could be an exception. And that's the rub, when you start making exceptions, people wonder where that line is - hence this discussion.

Nearly everyone who has a BB can find a genuinely awesome milestone they're about to achieve if 10, 100 or 1000 more people will just buy their books or get 10 friends to, etc.

On the other note, I don't expect a democracy, but the idea of tiers of posters with special priveldges? Ugh. If that's the case, let me know haw many points I need to level up and what rules I get to break. If I'm super-pretty do I get more points? If I sell really well, is that also a bonus?

There will always be judgement calls, and I don't envy the mods that job. At. All. But I think the rules have to be applies as fairly as possible to every member.


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> For those of you who have a problem with that kind of thread like I posted (from your posts on the subject, I assume you are: Phoenix, Monique, Cherise, Dara, Colin, ...and probably several behind the scenes) , I have to wonder why. Why do you take issue with authors giving other authors exposure to their readers? Surely you don't expect them to do it here at the WC. This is not a place for readers, although I know they're welcome here. This is a writer's cafe where we talk about the world of writing and being writers/publishers. Honestly, I'm trying to figure out why anyone would take issue with this practice, and I can't come up with a single reason that makes sense.


I didn't see your thread, Elle, so it wasn't what I was referring to. I was talking about a very specific type of post - one where the sole purpose is thinly veiled promo for the poster. I'm completely in favor of links to helpful and informative topics for writers and invites to meet one another's readers. I think you're assuming a broader definition that what many of us have in mind.


----------



## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

I would be inclined to the mega-thread for any "invitation to help me reach a milestone" ("buy my book", "like my page", etc.), but really enjoy the milestone threads when authors who have sold 100,000 books reflect back on how they got to that level.  It is extremely helpful and I have gotten loads of information from them over the years.  It seems like it leads to growing everyone's knowledge, and I see points that they have raised brought back in later discussions here.  I'm here to learn the stuff I don't know how to do, and those threads have always been extremely helpful.


----------



## Cege Smith (Dec 11, 2011)

I think there needs to be some clarification around what we're saying when we say "milestone" thread. TK posted some useful definitions IMO upthread.

I don't think anyone has said they don't find the "I've HIT x milestone" threads useful- as in past tense, the goal has already been achieved. I know I do! I eat those up because the poster usually also includes some nuggets of how they did it- I love those and have even bookmarked a few of them because they are so juicy.

What I think it under the microscope here are "With x,y,z help from other WC members- I COULD hit this milestone" threads- potential, future goals that have not been achieved yet. These do have a promo feel to them- albeit varying shades of grey for all of the other reasons we've been talking about for the last 6 pages.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Si, Cege.

I didn't think the "I've hit x milestone - yay!" threads were ever the topic. It's the "Help me hit x milestone by buying/pimping/etc" threads that are under discussion.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> I like helping my fellow authors. That's 75% of the reason I'm on WC every day. I'm here the other 25% to learn and help myself do better at writing, promoting, or publishing. I love the WC. I'm here pretty much every day and my favorite threads are the ones where people share their successes. My second favorite ones are where people offer something that might help me, be it a tool or an article or a tip. Whatever it is, I want to hear it. That's why I'm here.
> 
> I don't go to the Book Bazaar. That's a reader hangout, and I don't like giving the impression that I'm spamming readers for self-promo reasons so I stay out of there. That's also why I'm not active on Goodreads or the Amazon forums.
> 
> ...


As someone who is a bit concerned about this let me say, I didn't have a problem with your post, Elle. However, I have seen similar posts (people posting what is basically link bait) that were an abuse of the privilege. However, here I think we're discussing a different issue: the 'help me achieve a milestone' posts which are at least problematical and a type of promotion for book sales.

I recently posted an "I reached a milestone" myself. I'm not sure if there is a distinction of 'help me reach it' and 'I did reach it'. Mine definitely didn't relate to any one particular book but maybe those as well need to be regulated. I don't think this has anything to do with this being a 'dark place'. It is to make sure it doesn't become someplace where we can't continue sharing information and where everyone is treated the same whatever their sales. But that's just my opinion. Perhaps we disagree on that.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

cegesmith said:


> I think there needs to be some clarification around what we're saying when we say "milestone" thread. TK posted some useful definitions IMO upthread.
> 
> I don't think anyone has said they don't find the "I've HIT x milestone" threads useful- as in past tense, the goal has already been achieved. I know I do! I eat those up because the poster usually also includes some nuggets of how they did it- I love those and have even bookmarked a few of them because they are so juicy.
> 
> What I think it under the microscope here are "With x,y,z help from other WC members- I COULD hit this milestone" threads- potential, future goals that have not been achieved yet. These do have a promo feel to them- albeit varying shades of grey for all of the other reasons we've been talking about for the last 6 pages.


Right. Not sure anyone has a problem with the "Yay, I've Made X Sales" threads. Like you say, those often give back to the community.

On top of that, they don't have a "call to action" in them, which is probably the #1 marker of a self-promotional thread.


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Monique said:


> Si, Cege.
> 
> I didn't think the "I've hit x milestone - yay!" threads were ever the topic. It's the "Help me hit x milestone by buying/pimping/etc" threads that are under discussion.


Yes - that is correct. The individual threads celebrating an accomplished milestone are okay -- and often very fun to read.


----------



## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

ゴジラ said:


> I haven't been on KB much this past 1.5 weeks and have only skimmed this thread, but I don't like the idea of a megathread for milestones. Milestone threads, large and small, make me a very happy panda.
> 
> Don't we already kinda have a thread for "help me with tweets!" type requests? The Author Support Thread?


The Author Support Thread is for posting writing progress or lack thereof. I've been active in that thread since it's inception on 5/22/09. Here's the criteria as set by Mike Hicks way back then, and adhered to by those of us who post there.

"I don't know if somebody started something like this yet (if so, my perfunctory search didn't find it), but I'd like to start a thread - hey, I just did here! LOL! - where authors can help motivate each other by posting their goals, things they're having trouble with (writer's block, plot resolution, whatever), etc. for works currently underway."


----------



## 57280 (Feb 20, 2012)

Harvey said:


> Yes - that is correct. The individual threads celebrating an accomplished milestone are okay -- and often very fun to read.


Then it seems we are on our way to having you decide what works in your house. I'm good with that! 

But, the fact is, in my mind, I'm far more likely to learn from Hugh and Elle and TG than I am from someone like me. Why? Because the mark of their success implies a certain accumulation of skills that are valuable for me to read about.

If WC starts changing the nature of this forum so that it's a democracy, where we can all be equal (when let's be honest--we are not), then we may push these helpful and _experienced _folks back to their own blogs. That would be a shame, because having them here, interacting with us, makes for a far more enriching broth than interacting with them on their blogs. They are not better human beings than I am, but they may very well be better authors or publishers than I am, and I'll take advice where I can find it. I appreciate that I can find it here. 

I guess I just want to express that I'm not expecting a democracy, and I couldn't care less about fairness. What I care about is information that is valuable to me. That's why I come here, and for me, it's all working.

Thank you again, Harvey!


----------



## K. D. (Jun 6, 2013)

I'm just imagining a post which would say: "I almost made the NYT, but was 50 sales short". Ask yourself: What would the reactions have been? 
a) sorry to hear that, try again next time, or
b) you should have said something, the community would have tried to help ...

I mean, this was not an ordinary milestone, it is one where an other Indie pushes up in between the Trads and gets highly noticed 'out in the wild'. And in doing so, every one who self publishes benefits in way of awareness, like, 'again an Indie in this lofty heights'? And then it's not anymore about which author's book pushes up, but that it is an Indie's book. No matter who penned it.

I think it depends on the significance - and so there should be a megathread for cases like this. If it gets interest, ok - when not, it will fade. I mean, there have been threads before, like 'almost in Amazons 100's' - and many cheered and some helped - and I didn't see any protest so far (may be I overlooked it, then - sorry). I don't understand the mega-hype this time ...

*scratches head*


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Harvey said:


> Thank you for the thoughtful input... it's helpful.
> 
> 1. Let me take a stab here at where I think we are in terms of consensus:
> 
> ...


I agree with what tk said and think it nicely answers Harvey's questions.



tkkenyon said:


> *Milestone threads about something that happened in the past, *such as "I sold 10,000 books!" or "I hit #X on Amazon!" are obviously not self-promotion because they are not a request to buy books... Personally, I find these inspiring and love them. I read 'em all. If someone shares strategy, too, then they are awesome in the extreme.
> 
> *Help me hit XX* posts seem to be special cases and have the potential for abuse but have not, as yet, been abused. _One thread to rule them all, perhaps several threads chopped out by genre,_ might be an excellent compromise.
> 
> ...


I want to call attention to this, which I also strongly agree with:



MichaelWallace said:


> I'm torn. I do like to see people reach big milestones and lists. That's fun. But I've seen cases where mods have moved as self-promo a thread that says, "Hey, my new book is out and I'm hoping to get my first (1/10/100) sales. Please help!" Is it really fair to let the person who already has a hundred thousand sales use the forum that way because the milestone at the end is impressive, but not the person with the newly released book? I don't know.
> 
> The big issue, as with links to blog posts, FB posts, etc., is simply managing it so 1.) it feels fair, and 2.) keeping the forum from being overwhelmed by people pointing to their own books and blogs. I don't envy the moderators in their job keeping the place clean and shiny.


----------



## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

tkkenyon said:


> *If I may be so bold to suggest an entirely different option than sequestration, how about instituting a "bumping rule" for threads requesting anything,* either requesting help with promo, or retweeting, or liking a FB post to beat the stupid FB algos, or make it free, or whatever, like the one in the Bazaar. You cannot post after yourself, no matter who you are.
> 
> Threads that produce interest and responses will swim.
> 
> Threads from people who have not contributed, who have no personal relationships, who have not earned brownie points and respect credits, will sink quickly under the weight of new threads in the WC and die a natural death.


This, this, this. A thousand times this.

If we put everything in one thread, then the NA cross-promo thread suddenly gets lumped in with the people writing murder mysteries, and there's not going to be a lot of overlap with audiences, making the whole thing useless.

Someone mentioned the tagging thread way up there. That thread was exhausting. When I was doing that, it would routinely take ten minutes of every day going through and doing all the tags. And that was just going on Amazon and clicking little check boxes. If I have to copy-paste tweets and facebook posts for everyone on the forum in order to be part of cross promos, then A) The cross-promo is not going to be effective, because we won't have overlapping audiences and B) It's going to take so much time that I'm just going to give up on it.

Don't let people bump their own threads. That's the best solution, seriously.


----------



## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

To me, it's not complicated. I don't see a whole lot of difference between a post like TG's (which I have no problem with) and someone saying "Help me pick a cover," "Help me with my blurb," or things of that nature. They're all asking for assistance from members of a community that they feel a part of - kind of like a literary barn raising. Thus, each of them is a call to action to a certain extent. If you feel the urge to do so, lend a hand; if not, then don't. No one will judge you (or so I hope), and as long as it's not a flat-out request for book purchases I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

That said, a single thread would probably alleviate any concerns regarding excess spamming, but at the moment I personally don't view it as a problem because, as I mentioned, I don't see a great deal of distinction between this and other "Help me..." threads.


----------



## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

tkkenyon said:


> I don't think we need "tiers of privilege." I think this sort of thing will naturally sort itself out.
> 
> *If I may be so bold to suggest an entirely different option than sequestration, how about instituting a "bumping rule" for threads requesting anything,* either requesting help with promo, or retweeting, or liking a FB post to beat the stupid FB algos, or make it free, or whatever, like the one in the Bazaar. You cannot post after yourself, no matter who you are.
> 
> ...


Excellent idea. Seems like it would solve most of the concerns about equality. All are welcome to request help for their milestone and the members who have formed relationships with others and earned respect for their contributions will get responses.


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

CeeDee said:


> I'm just imagining a post which would say: "I almost made the NYT, but was 50 sales short". Ask yourself: What would the reactions have been?
> a) sorry to hear that, try again next time, or
> b) you should have said something, the community would have tried to help ...
> 
> ...


I agree with this and Tkkenyon's recent posts. I think the significance of the posting is important to consider. If someone is in the running for a nice award or would like a few votes for a nomination they received or I sold 100,000 books this week--it should have it's own thread. it's an accomplishment in this tough publishing world. See what's possible. Let's face it most Indies need to see all the good news they can. More than enough people look down on them.

If someone wants to post they hit their milestone of selling 1000 books maybe...

Very seldom have I seen any gaming going on and if this has been such a big problem I've missed it. Maybe I need to wear my Mao jacket and read The Red Book again and ferret it out. Equal? Why nothing in this world is equal. I guess you can keep writing more rules until the WC attains it.

EDIT: Just saw KevinH's post and the "Help Me" posts. Agree.


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

tkkenyon said:


> *If I may be so bold to suggest an entirely different option than sequestration, how about instituting a "bumping rule" for threads requesting anything,* either requesting help with promo, or retweeting, or liking a FB post to beat the stupid FB algos, or make it free, or whatever, like the one in the Bazaar. You cannot post after yourself, no matter who you are.
> 
> Threads that produce interest and responses will swim.


Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. I don't have strong feelings on this topic because I haven't seen signs (yet) that "help me reach..." posts are getting out of hand. On the whole, I'm pretty content with the culture we've got here now. I'm just responding because Harvey asked our input, not because I'm infuriated or plagued daily by gray area posts. I just skip the ones I'm not interested in.


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

As a newbie with no brownie points, it really, truly bothers me that some are okay with making this a popularity contest. Wasn't everyone a newbie at some point? How can newbies gain brownie points if they aren't given a chance to earn them?

I am okay with a mega thread for promotional help requests. I'd like to continue to see individual threads of posters hitting their milestones. Those are inspiring.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

The bumping rule would just mean the popular kids can get away with it and the newbs are SOL, I think.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Dara England said:


> Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. I don't have strong feelings on this topic because I haven't seen signs (yet) that "help me reach..." posts are getting out of hand.


That's because they're not currently allowed. I can think of ten people, just off the top of my head, who could post these threads regularly, who are respected posters, who would have impressive milestones they want to reach. They don't do it because it's a self-promotion. Let people do it and, they will. And how.


----------



## 57280 (Feb 20, 2012)

Dara England said:


> Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. I don't have strong feelings on this topic because I haven't seen signs (yet) that "help me reach..." posts are getting out of hand. On the whole, I'm pretty content with the culture we've got here now. I'm just responding because Harvey asked our input, not because I'm infuriated or plagued daily by gray area posts. I just skip the ones I'm not interested in.


Me too, Dara. I'm hoping that the cure is not worse than the disease!


----------



## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

I guess I am what someone upthread called "NewbieNoContribute."  The idea that I have to build up a credit account of "brownie points" disturbs me and makes me feel pressured. It is making this forum look like a quid pro quo environment.


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Isn't providing feedback on blurbs and covers considered helping? Or, does it only count when it leads to a unit being sold? I have seen newbies help out with critiques and feedback, but they might not get the same type of love when they ask for help.  I have made it a point to post to threads where there were zero or minimal responses.

What is the scale for contribution? Is it # posts? Length of membership? Maybe a ratio between helpful posts versus chatter posts? This seems to be putting the Haves against the Have Nots.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

tkkenyon said:


> How do newbies gain brownie points? By helping others.
> 
> TexasGirl has been more than kind to me on the NA Promo Thread. She sent a notice to her mailing list about my last book. I _jumped _at the chance to help her by cross-promoting. It was an honor to do so.
> 
> ...


I know this is meant well, but my worst case scenario for it is we become like a sorority where the seniors haze the newbies.

Besides, all one has to do to circumvent a "no bump rule" is update any of one's posts in the thread. Updating a post bumps the whole thread just like a new post does.

And again, the only reason self promo threads haven't taken over the forum is they are currently forbidden. To everyone. So in a way, I guess I agree with "don't change the rules." I just add enforce them equally for everyone.

And offering promo to others is not self promo. It is awesome. I'll go one further. I say allow self promo if you bring something of value to the table to offer in return. I love Julie's thread where she offers to help people determine which genre their book belongs in. She has a link to her blog post on the difference between the genres, but she offers so much in return that I don't resent it. Elle's Facebook offer is another good example.

The point about mega threads for "help me reach milestone x" needing to be genre specific is a good one. We have one of these threads for NA. We have one for speculative fiction. Nothing is stopping thriller authors from starting one, etc.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

OK, let me posit this: What if someone starts a thread and says, "So close, just need high-triple-figure sales to make this milestone," only that's likely not true. They're likely not even close, needing probably low quadruple figures. In short, they likely have no chance. A look at their book's history on Amazon and a look at the trajectory of sales on other venues, coupled with current ebook sales volumes, shows a wide disparity between where they are and what they need. They may hope they're close, but they're likely not even in the ballpark. Would it still be OK for them to post for help?

How close does someone need to be to hit a milestone in order to post for help reaching it -- and by whose calculations? Or does it not matter if you're 5 or 50, 500 or 5000 away?


----------



## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

It seems to me that the WC is a group of friends... well at least a group who are friendly with each other.

Surely any newbie, such as myself, wouldn't expect to join a new group of people and immediately be treated like an old-time member that everyone knows and likes. I mean where does that ever happen in your real life? Why would this place be any different just because it's on the internet? It feels like this thread is trying really hard to figure out how to enforce equality standards on social interactions. That's not going to work, is it?


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

So, basically board "celebrities" should be able to break the rules because of their status? Isn't this exactly what's wrong with the sports/celebrity culture? The idea that there is one set of rules for some and another for the rest is...gross.


----------



## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

Monique said:


> So, basically board "celebrities" should be able to break the rules because of their status? Isn't this exactly what's wrong with the sports/celebrity culture? The idea that there is one set of rules for some and another for the rest is...gross.


Not a different set of rules. Just an acknowledgement that some people have become popular through their greater time on the forum and their history of helping others. That's why I seconded the no bumping rule idea. Everyone is equally free to post and those posts will fare according to the relationships that person has formed. As newbies become better known within the community more and more people will be interested in helping them achieve special goals.

And I agree that there are problems with the sports/celebrity culture, but it's a little different dynamic here IMO. It's not like the "celebrities" of the WC are popular because they look pretty in a slinky outfit or throw a ball really hard. Most of them are popular because they have gone out of their way to help those of us following them and have made an effort to offer us great advice. Well, and Hugh dances which is probably the secret to his popularity.

ETA -- stupid spelling.


----------



## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

I appreciate Monique standing up for the one-rule-for-everyone point of view because she's one who would benefit from special treatment, were it allowed. Perhaps, by this point (because I've hung on so long), I would, too. If there are two camps, or if we have to draw a hard line (to make moderation manageable), then I'm on Monique's side.

But... I totally understand the voices who want things to stay the same. We do love it here. But it is a fragile balance, and as more and more of us get closer to USA Today and even NYT lists, there will be more of us tempted to ask for help tipping the scale. A separate "help me reach this milestone" thread seems the most fair given the options.

It would also be nice to have a "Help a Newbie Out" thread. Maybe you're afraid to post your goal of selling 10 copies to non-relatives right next to the huge sellers. I would've loved that, uh, three years ago. Now I would drop in to feel old and brilliant, drop pearls of wisdom...and perhaps offer a cautionary tale.


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I like the idea of Help A Newbie out thread. I think there are some newbies who want to help but feel that they don't have the results to support their advice. Maybe if there was one pool of knowledge where us newbies can give and take from, that would be helpful in building social cred.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

"Tiers of privilege, with unwritten rules about who belongs where, and even more power granted to those who already have it" may, in fact, be the most perfect description of the human social order.

But _codifying it into board rules_ is.. awful. I'm really shocked by this thread.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Besides, all one has to do to circumvent a "no bump rule" is update any of one's posts in the thread. Updating a post bumps the whole thread just like a new post does.


This isn't quite true...editing one's own posts resets the "new" indicator, so if someone is browsing by "new posts since last visited," yes, it bumps the thread. But it doesn't move it in the topic listing. A new post does both.

And really, I haven't seen where bumping has been a significant problem. Bumping one's own thread within seven days isn't allowed in author service threads or Book Bazaar threads. Other threads, there might be a legitimate reason why someone might make a back-to-back post; I've seen it. And people who want to post to a thread will just get one of their friends to post to the thread first --we're pretty sure we've seen it happen in the author services threads and in the Book Bazaar but can't usually prove it. I'd rather not have to monitor ALL of the Writers' Café for that. 

Betsy


----------



## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Moist_Tissue said:


> that would be helpful in building social cred.


You have it already, Moist_Tissue! (and as a long-time allergy sufferer, let me say tissues-up to your alias.)
I've been here since 2010 but still don't feel I have any social cred. I'm too shy. Too much lurking. Many, many of us are like that. Perhaps we should have a thread just for us shy, quiet types


----------



## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Monique said:


> Having one set of rules for "helpful" or "successful" people and another for those who don't make this arbitrary cut or any other class system troubles me deeply.
> 
> I also don't see that much of a difference in threads that ask people to buy their books or ask people to convince other people to buy their books. Both are clearly self-promotional.


I'm very much with Monique, David, and others on this. As one of the old timers on the board, like Elle (who should not be upset by this discussion because her recent post was not of the sort being discussed), I've seen the tone shift this way and that over the years, but it's always either come back to a nice center or been steered back by the mods. The day KBoards adopts a policy where some are more equal than others will be the day I sadly find something else to fill the time I spend here.

A single thread for requests for help in reaching milestones would be fine with me. So would simply enforcing the no "buy my book" posts except via signatures.

One rule I think would really help this situation and many others is that thread subject lines must give a clue as to the thread subject.


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I've been the beneficiary of such threads.

I was close to hitting the USAT list and someone started a thread on here, and it made my day to see all the support on here. That feeling is what I remember, more than hitting the list.

Some people eventually move on from the WC and stop posting, but I'm still here, and I think stuff like that thread is why.

Let's be honest about what we're getting from this forum. The mix of entertainment to valuable publishing info we absolutely must know... is about 10 to 1. And that's being generous.

If I'm here to waste time and relax, I can't get that annoyed by vague subject lines and threads that waste my time.  

A while back, I started a thread with a video for a song and music video that was created for my book. I thought it was pretty cool, and wanted to share it. I didn't post it thinking I'd trick some board member into buying the book. I just couldn't think of a time anyone on here had done such a thing. Nobody commented. Down it sank, onto page 2, within hours. No harm, no foul!


----------



## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

Gretchen Galway said:


> You have it already, Moist_Tissue! (and as a long-time allergy sufferer, let me say tissues-up to your alias.)


I was under the impression that it was in reference to her erotica writing.


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Gretchen Galway said:


> You have it already, Moist_Tissue! (and as a long-time allergy sufferer, let me say tissues-up to your alias.)
> I've been here since 2010 but still don't feel I have any social cred. I'm too shy. Too much lurking. Many, many of us are like that. Perhaps we should have a thread just for us shy, quiet types


Sneezes, coughs, and hugs, my dear!  (I know a couple of people who think the word "moist" seems yucky. I love the word!)
I like the idea of bringing newbies and quiet ones together to create our own (initial) support system.


----------



## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Victoria Champion said:


> I was under the impression that it was in reference to her erotica writing.


LOL! *sniff*


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2014)

Casper Bogart said:


> Then it seems we are on our way to having you decide what works in your house. I'm good with that!
> 
> But, the fact is, in my mind, I'm far more likely to learn from Hugh and Elle and TG than I am from someone like me. Why? Because the mark of their success implies a certain accumulation of skills that are valuable for me to read about.
> 
> ...


Thank you.

I'm no fan girl. I don't worship humans. (Well . . . maybe Norman Reedus.) However, I respect the authors on KBoards who are experienced and who have reached a level of success. I plan to be where they are too, someday. So, yeah, information is far more valuable to this newbie than some KBoards democracy. Texas girl posted some information yesterday that, despite all of my research, I didn't know. It was invaluable information for me, and it represents why KBoards is so important to me. I would hate to see someone like her leave KBoards.

Jolie


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

I agree with Monique and David.

No special treatment. No "buy my book" posts in any guise.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

My preference would be to see none of those kinds of threads at all.  However, I could easily live with there being one thread I could simply ignore.  And if it is a single thread I can ignore, I don't care how much anybody bumps it. (If it's for everybody, it's going to get bumped often anyway.)

Camille


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

My name? When I registered for the site, I wasn't sure if I wanted to use my pen name or something else. I was watching tv and this commercial featuring a dad with snotty tissues in his pocket came on. I went with that. I did think about changing to moist panties but I was sure that'd get my behind banned.


----------



## gonedark (May 30, 2013)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

Monique said:


> The bumping rule would just mean the popular kids can get away with it and the newbs are SOL, I think.


I agree with Monique on this. I've been admin of a large forum before, and have seen this, necessitating changing the rules. 
As some know, I've taken a break from the WC over factors to do with unevenness. I want to write, not waste time being cranky. The mods have a tough job and it's impossible to please everyone, and no one should expect they can. It's also good not to have too many restrictions as it can feel confining/kill discussion. Some things did seem to get too uneven though, looking from my tiny neck of the woods.
I think it's impossible to grade members on things such as helpfulness, because, honestly, you can pick up ideas from all members - sometimes the most useful ideas for me come from a newbie or someone who rarely posts. Or, as someone said earlier, helping someone with their blurb etc can potentially mean a drastic change in income for that author. 
I think if you allow "vote for me/help me hit a milestone/read my blog post/certain forum posts" for some and not others, it's uneven. Having one thread for 'help me' posts idea sounds like a good solution.
I haven't seen the threads mentioned in this thread (and am very, very uncomfortable that TexasG is mentioned so much and so publicly in this thread, as this surely can't be mostly about one post?)


----------



## @Suzanna (Mar 14, 2011)

The same rules for everyone ... period. I used to be a moderator on a popular gaming forum and I know from experience that there would be too many hurt feelings (justifiably so, IMHO) to allow the favorites to get away with breaking rules that would land someone else in trouble.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I agree with everything that Monique has said. And I share Ed's feeling that I can't believe we're discussing giving the favorites special treatment.


----------



## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

I didn't think we were discussing giving the favorites special treatment. At least I wasn't. My thought was that if a popular member does the exact same thing as a newbie the "popular kid" will get a better reaction than the newbie _because_ they are a favorite. And that's okay. Because you want to help out people you know and like while new people are an unknown.

Trying to make rules to counteract this doesn't seem possible.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm going to quote Harvey's original post here to make sure people realize what the original question is (the thread's getting kinda long  ) :



Harvey said:


> Hello all,
> 
> We've been discussing a couple of moderation topics, and are asking for some community input.
> 
> ...


And also this Public Service Annoucement we posted from July after one of our enclaves in the mod cave...



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks,
> 
> *A reminder that posting links to your books here in the Writers' Café is generally a no-no. *Links to your books are allowed in the Book Bazaar; outside the Book Bazaar itself, links should not be included unless you have a darn good reason that is NOT promotional.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I don't think there has been a huge problem with actual asking for downloads, which was happening fairly regularly up to that point.

Betsy


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

I find it funny that people are saying the book bazaar doesn’t work, and that it's for readers.  The reason it doesn't work is because people don't post there.  And it seems to me, people don't post there because they are spending all their time in the WC, talking to other writers, and not to readers.  Personally, I think the WC should be a place where writers ask people (both other writers AND readers) questions about self publishing, opinions about covers, blurbs, etc, and questions about craft and tell the rest of the world when something good happens to their book.  But the BB should be where people promote their work.  To READERS (some of whom may be authors, but the bulk of whom are not).  And the whole rest of the board is where people (and you all are PEOPLE) talk about other stuff. And incidentally, have more people see the books in your signatures and possibly buy them.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

tkkenyon said:


> Yeah, there are two threads that seem to have precipitated this brouhaha. _Two threads. _


Well, to clarify the clarification, there are two threads that members keep bringing up because they were examples that happened recently. We would not bring this up if they were the only two examples... Really.

Betsy


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

JessieVerona said:


> I didn't think we were discussing giving the favorites special treatment. At least I wasn't. My thought was that if a popular member does the exact same thing as a newbie the "popular kid" will get a better reaction than the newbie _because_ they are a favorite. And that's okay. Because you want to help out people you know and like while new people are an unknown.
> 
> Trying to make rules to counteract this doesn't seem possible.


A number of people have said TG's post should be allowed because she is a respected member and we all want to help her. Other posts have said favorites have built up goodwill and they should be allowed more leeway.

So, it comes down to are those types of posts allowed and who is allowed to post them if they are? Only people who think they might have a possibility to hit NYT or USAT? How about AMZ top 100? What about a genre top 100? Where is the line and who draws it? And who are the respected members? Who decides?

I've already said I think the rules should be the same for everyone. And I'm not against one thread for "help me achieve_____" posts.

*please note, I like TG and consider her an online friend, this isn't about her. It's about the type of thread in question. I already owned her book before she posted about it.


----------



## Andrzej Tucholski (Jan 4, 2014)

After years of spending time on gaming forums I was absolutely shocked by how people can actually be... nice to each other I'm pretty sure that I've written this somewhere here already, but heck, I'm going to write it again anyways: registering on KBoards to be a part of Writer's Cafe feels like a first bubble of fresh air after you've resurfaced from dark water. People here are just the best. And the freedom of positive speech? Seems endless. 

So I'd stand for keeping the rules as they are. And if there's really a need for changes, then one, collected thread is almost always a good idea


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

JessieVerona said:


> Not a different set of rules. Just an acknowledgement that some people have become popular through their greater time on the forum and their history of helping others. That's why I seconded the no bumping rule idea. Everyone is equally free to post and those posts will fare according to the relationships that person has formed. As newbies become better known within the community more and more people will be interested in helping them achieve special goals.
> 
> And I agree that there are problems with the sports/celebrity culture, but it's a little different dynamic here IMO. It's not like the "celebrities" of the WC are popular because they look pretty in a slinky outfit or throw a ball really hard. Most of them are popular because they have gone out of their way to help those of us following them and have made an effort to offer us great advice. Well, and Hugh dances which is probably the secret to his popularity.
> 
> ETA -- stupid spelling.


But being popular isn't a justification for having a different set of rules for them which is exactly what you (and some others) seem to be saying should occur. I consider that more like a high school clique than anything else. If they are popular, then their opinion may well carry more weight. Fair enough. But different rules? No.


----------



## Shalini Boland (Nov 29, 2010)

I agree that one Milestone thread is probably the way to go. *With one exception* ... If someone needs our help to achieve a USA today list or a NYT list, I say let them post their own separate thread. It's an exciting event that I personally would want to know about. And I do believe there is a difference between people helping me hit 50 sales, compared to someone getting national recognition for mega-sales.

If you decide on a mega thread and nothing else, that's cool too, but it would be a shame as I love the excitement and possibility of a fellow author's impending stardom!


----------



## Guest (Jan 21, 2014)

Forum rule 655 (or whatever number you choose): Never ask a large community for their opinions when deciding on a rule.  

Just make an executive decision; STICK TO IT, and be done with it.


----------



## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

telracs said:


> I find it funny that people are saying the book bazaar doesn't work, and that it's for readers. The reason it doesn't work is because people don't post there. And it seems to me, people don't post there because they are spending all their time in the WC, talking to other writers, and not to readers. Personally, I think the WC should be a place where writers ask people (both other writers AND readers) questions about self publishing, opinions about covers, blurbs, etc, and questions about craft and tell the rest of the world when something good happens to their book. But the BB should be where people promote their work. To READERS (some of whom may be authors, but the bulk of whom are not). And the whole rest of the board is where people (and you all are PEOPLE) talk about other stuff. And incidentally, have more people see the books in your signatures and possibly buy them.


Telracs, posting in the BB is like throwing a stone in the water. You hope it'll float or at least create ripples, but all it does is sink very quickly to the bottom. I do it every once in a while just because it's there and I think I should, but I've seen zero benefit from it.


----------



## laceysilks (Mar 11, 2013)

I like the way things are right now. I have no problem with "help me reach a milestone" mega-thread. I have no problem with individual threads to help reach a milestone either (In fact, before I saw this thread I cursed myself I wasn't home yesterday to see it so that I could help out - getting on NYT is a BIG deal.)

*ANY milestone threads are absolutely awesome!* Whether it's a rank or # of books sold - I LOVE reading those. To me, even getting accepted by BB is a milestone (I have one coming up and now I'm afraid to post anywhere about it, asking for help to spread the word, so I probably won't). Come on, how many times have we seen "They've rejected me again." BB is a big deal.

I love being able to help when I can, even if I don't post that I have (which is my mistake).

I've been here for a few years and feel like I know most people, yet by my # of posts I seem like a newbie. I reached out to someone from KB via FB earlier in the year and she graciously replied with advice - I will cherish that forever. I wouldn't have been able to do that if it weren't for KB. Most of the time I feel too shy to post anything because I feel like I'm just a little sardine swimming with the sharks. Who the heck wants to know what I'm thinking? And that is my mistake. I promised myself to try to avoid these mistakes in 2014. For those of you who have been here less than a year (you know who you are) and have hundreds, if not thousands of posts - I applaud you. Wow! Just wow! For someone like me, it takes a lot to speak up. Normally I'd read through threads like these and not say anything. I'm sure there are many people like me reading this, and if you are, start showing that you're contributing - you can walk miles in baby steps too. People will notice eventually.

I would hate if the KB veterans left us because they couldn't ask to help with a tweet or a FB post. *Helping out someone so HUGE on my FB or twitter is not only to their advantage but also mine.* To be associated in any way is a privilege. I know my readers have written me how much they like when I post new $0.99 or free deals or new releases. I couldn't do that if it weren't for threads on KB and me reaching out through FB. If my readers are happy, I'm happy.

*My favorite thread here is the NA Cross promo *- and again, I help when I can and I don't look at whether someone else reciprocated because #1 I'm too busy, and #2 I trust most people on that thread and I know they will reciprocate when they can.

I drool and wag my tail like a dog when I see anything posted by H.M., Dayla, Hugh, Elle, TK, TG etc... (there are at least a dozen on that list), whether it's advice, sharing a milestone, an article, or asking to spread the word. I don't think I have a pair big enough yet to start threads like these and *I appreciate them all*. And FYI: I'm trying to grow a bigger pair 

Again, please don't change things too much. I think most here can judge whether a post is meant to self-promote or someone is simply reaching out for help because they've extended their hand many, many times before.

Plus, we have awesome moderators. If a line is crossed, I'm sure they'll see it pretty fast.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

tkkenyon said:


> That's what these 6 pages of hand-wringing are about.


TK, imo these two posts are NOT what the hand-wringing is about but the precedent that's been and is being set, not just by them but by earlier posts and posters as well. Was Elle's offer generous? Of course. But, to my mind, I have to wonder why HER fans apparently have more value than someone else's fans. Harvey pretty much said in that thread the mods weren't going to allow just anyone to post a link to their FB page. I have to question why? What makes her fanbase so special apart from the number of fans, even though a lot of folk here have as many -- or more.

What's the fan cut-off number then? How much interaction do you have to prove on your page? Or is concession based on helpfulness or sales numbers or some other factor? I have like 2 FB fans, but I've been a fairly helpful contributor here. Would I be allowed to post an invitation over someone with 2000 active fans who hasn't made a splash? What if someone with a large number of fans wants to start a convo and invite authors to participate but is simply trying to get more Likes? I'm not at all saying Elle has any ulterior motive, but you do have to Like her page before you can comment -- there's a side benefit despite how pure her intentions are. Who's to moderate _intent_?

But if everyone's allowed, and they see it is, then things WILL get out of hand.

I'm quite for allowing folk to be generous and invite others to their pages; I just think those invitations should be consolidated into a single thread. Basically, I'm for all promo-type posts be put into their own threads and that everyone be allowed to post their promos. A few separate threads would be fine. A cross-promo thread for each major genre would be great. We have a blog thread already, so maybe a separate FB thread could be added -- or expand the FB Like thread.

Will some folk miss some of the announcements? Yes. But some folk also might consider meeting 2000 fans on someone's thriller FB page more beneficial to them than stopping by a fantasy and romance page with 7000 fans. We don't all need the SAME fans.

So allowing it for some and not others? Not cool, imo.


----------



## Shalini Boland (Nov 29, 2010)

laceysilks said:


> I think most here can judge whether a post is meant to self-promote or someone is simply reaching out for help because they've extended their hand many, many times before.
> 
> Plus, we have awesome moderators. If a line is crossed, I'm sure they'll see it pretty fast.


I totally agree.


----------



## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> But being popular isn't a justification for having a different set of rules for them which is exactly what you (and some others) seem to be saying should occur. I consider that more like a high school clique than anything else. If they are popular, then their opinion may well carry more weight. Fair enough. But different rules? No.


I'm sorry, I must not have explained myself very well. What I was voting for was that everyone be allowed to post "help me reach XX" posts _equally_. And enforce a "no bumping" rule on everyone _equally_. That way everyone has _exactly_ the same playing field as far as the rules are concerned.

My further comment was to the idea that old-timers would likely receive a lot of help and/or attention to these types of posts while newbies would receive less attention. Then they will become one of the inner circle in due course. That seems to me to just be human nature.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

tkkenyon said:


> You know, I didn't think it was possible, but _this _thread is destroying my faith in Kindleboards. I have rarely seen such invective here. This is getting really personal. If I were a mod, I'd lock this piece-of-shtuff thread.
> 
> One last thought: If you don't like the subject of a thread, don't read it. Just go to any one of the thousands of other threads in the WC and read that one. No one makes you read threads.


I find this thread disturbing, but probably for the exact opposite reasons you do. 

It's odd that you say you want this thread sent to the cornfield, and then in the very next sentence that if you don't like a thread, don't read it. Those seem rather at odds with each other.

But, really, that's neither here nor there regarding this issue. The board has a set of rules. Most boards do. And thank goodness; it would ke chaos without them  Obviously, this discussion is not about just one or two posts, although those may have brought the issue to the forefront. It's really about equal enforcement of *existing* rules or if those rules should be changed. At least, that's how I see it.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,  I see a lot of passion here, and that's great--it reflects the sense of ownership of the Writers' Café/KBoards that you have and that's great...but let's be kind to each other while we're being passionate. 

Betsy


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

WHDean said:


> You could have both a "Milestones" mega-thread and a "Cross-Promotional Opportunities" mega-thread. Not ideal, perhaps, but a practical solution.


I think we've reached consensus on the "Help me reach this milestone!" threads, and I'll set up a megathread for it shortly. Note: I don't intend to sticky it. (Believe me, the best way to lower the visibility of a thread is to sticky it.) So, please add it to your bookmarks (using the Add Bookmark button at the top of the thread).

The above note from WHDean is an interesting idea for handling threads like "let me help you promote by having you post on my personal page." and other useful threads along those lines. What do you all think of a mega-thread in the WC for those? It would allow us to consistently allow those threads, without threat of the board being overwhelmed by too many threads like that.

If we do that, what would a meaningful Title for that thread be


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

emilycantore said:


> Isn't this getting to be a larger version of "hey guys, let's all buy each other's books so we can push up the rankings"?


Quoted for truth.

To be fair, though, the thread that started the discussion asked for Tweets and Facebook posts, not for us to buy a book. But yeah, still. I half expected Julie to have said this by now.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Harvey said:


> I think we've reached consensus on the "Help me reach this milestone!" threads, and I'll set up a megathread for it shortly. Note: I don't intend to sticky it. (Believe me, the best way to lower the visibility of a thread is to sticky it.) So, please add it to your bookmarks (using the Add Bookmark button at the top of the thread).
> 
> The above note from WHDean is an interesting idea for handling threads like "let me help you promote by having you post on my personal page." and other useful threads along those lines. What do you all think of a mega-thread in the WC for those? It would allow us to consistently allow those threads, without threat of the board being overwhelmed by too many threads like that.
> 
> If we do that, what would a meaningful Title for that thread be


Both seem like a good idea to me, Harvey, for what it's worth.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Harvey said:


> What do you all think of a mega-thread in the WC for those? It would allow us to consistently allow those threads, without threat of the board being overwhelmed by too many threads like that.
> 
> If we do that, what would a meaningful Title for that thread be


NA Cross Promo Thread
Fantasy Cross Promo Thread
Science Fiction Cross Promo Thread
Thriller Cross Promo Thread
Mystery Cross Promo Thread
Horror Cross Promo Thread
Animal Stories Cross Promo Thread...


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I've been too sick to keep up with a lot on the boards, but it's obvious that Harvey and the mods are seeing a trend here. I don't think just two threads would cause them to post this. So, my two cents is that the threads Harvey is talking about are against the rules already, so let's just follow the rules.

I'm all for the "Holy Zeus, I've sold 10,000 books in six weeks -- and here's how I did it!" threads, and against the "Hey, guys, help me sell 2,000 more books so I can get to the NYT list" or the "Wow, only a thousand likes and I'll be awesome on Facebook!" threads.

Elle and TexasGirl have done a lot to help people here, and I appreciate them and the others like them _so_ much. It's amazing the kind of information and help you can get on this forum, from writers at all stages of their careers, and in various genres. These boards are like no others I've seen, and I would hate for that to change.

If there were going to be different rules for different members, I'd probably going to be out of here. If no one can see the damage the every-other-post-a-promo can do, you haven't seen the KDP forums. And believe me, once it started, that's how it would go -- there are books and websites dedicated to telling people to go on forums and flog their book. I won't wade through stuff like that for the odd helpful/informative post.

How do you get to be in a top tier, if only certain people can do certain things? And who decides who gets the special treatment? I'd bet the mods don't want to do it (and don't they have enough to handle as it is?) Because believe me, people will flock to the "popular" posters and ignore the others, and I think we've all been around long enough to know that.


----------



## ToniD (May 3, 2011)

I'm flat-out in favor of equal treatment for all.

There are people here who contribute a tremendous amount and I'm deeply appreciative of what they do.
There are brand-new members just coming out of lurk mode and I think they should be welcomed as full members.
And the rest of us in between.

Different people, different types of participation-same rules, please.



Harvey said:


> I think we've reached consensus on the "Help me reach this milestone!" threads, and I'll set up a megathread for it shortly. Note: I don't intend to sticky it. (Believe me, the best way to lower the visibility of a thread is to sticky it.) So, please add it to your bookmarks (using the Add Bookmark button at the top of the thread).
> 
> The above note from WHDean is an interesting idea for handling threads like "let me help you promote by having you post on my personal page." and other useful threads along those lines. What do you all think of a mega-thread in the WC for those? It would allow us to consistently allow those threads, without threat of the board being overwhelmed by too many threads like that.
> 
> If we do that, what would a meaningful Title for that thread be


I like both.

Title idea: Off-Thread Promo Help ?


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I hope people aren't taking this thread personally. It seems to be auseful and interesting discussion. And I see also that several people who could legitimately ask for special favors because they've sold a lot of books (Deanna Chase, Monique Martin, Phoenix Sullivan, David Dalglish, JR Tomlin) are coming out for a consistent rule for all. That doesn't seem mean-spirited at all, it seems fair-minded.

Also, I think people have bent over backwards to say that this is _not _about TexasGirl or Elle. That just happens to be the most recent threads that have made the mods wonder if there should be a policy and to ask the group to give input as to what they think that rule should be. It isn't, and shouldn't be, personal.


----------



## Guest (Jan 21, 2014)

Harvey said:


> I think we've reached consensus on the "Help me reach this milestone!" threads, and I'll set up a megathread for it shortly.


Great!


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> NA Cross Promo Thread
> Fantasy Cross Promo Thread
> Science Fiction Cross Promo Thread
> Thriller Cross Promo Thread
> ...


I agree with this. One giant mega-thread for cross-promo without going by genre seems like it would quickly become useless. I don't post in the NA cross promo thread much, but I read it to see how people are doing (and to find books), and it seems like keeping that kind of thing genre-specific is more fun and effective for everyone.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Cherise Kelley said:


> NA Cross Promo Thread
> Fantasy Cross Promo Thread
> Science Fiction Cross Promo Thread
> Thriller Cross Promo Thread
> ...


This indie romance thread has been running for nearly three years in the BB and any romance authors can post in it. Dana Taylor used to keep the thread going and posted the authors in her Book Luvin' Babes website. Dana has not been available for a while and asked me to keep the thread going. I have 13K followers and I tweet any romance authors that post there by clicking on their link and using the twitter button on the Amazon product page.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,20835.msg390193.html#msg390193


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Here's my Animal Books Joint Promotion one

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,152059.0.html


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Instead of one mega thread, can we do a weekly thread for potential milestones? As an example: "Help me please! Jan 20th through Jan 26th".

This could offset time sensitive requests that get buried in 90 pages.


----------



## SLGray (Dec 21, 2013)

I think the genre specific cross promo threads are what we were attempting to set up, at least in part, with the SpecFic thread as well.

I like them broken out by genre, for sure.


----------



## 57280 (Feb 20, 2012)

Moist_Tissue said:


> Instead of one mega thread, can we do a weekly thread for potential milestones? As an example: "Help me please! Jan 20th through Jan 26th".
> 
> This could offset time sensitive requests that get buried in 90 pages.


Lovely compromise!


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm not sure that would work well to break it up by week... need to visualize what that would look like. In any event, I've created the one milestone megathread... let's run with that for a bit and see if we need to make further adjustments.


----------



## Thisiswhywecan&#039;thavenicethings (May 3, 2013)

> TexasGirl has been more than kind to me on the NA Promo Thread. She sent a notice to her mailing list about my last book. I jumped at the chance to help her by cross-promoting. It was an honor to do so.
> 
> There are people on the NA Promo Thread who, really, had 5 or fewer posts when they first said that they FB'ed or Tweeted someone else's books, even though they probably had few followers at that point. I know who they are. I said hi to them on that thread. That's how you build brownie points: you contribute. Even if you think it might be a pebble in the ocean, you do it anyway.


I saw TG's request and posted it on my personal FB wall because more people would see it there than on my author page which has few followers. What I didn't do was come back to the WC and tell anyone I did it. Is my contribution any the less because I didn't come back and make a post that might earn me brownie points?


----------



## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

MarenHayes said:


> One of Kboard's strengths/charms is the mad grab bag of threads and posts, and the ever-shifting current pages, from gazillionaire veterans, breakout noobs, and resolute hikers on the cobbled road to bestsellerdom or successful hobbyland. Some posters are astonishingly helpful and generous. Some are wise beyond measure and worth emulating. Some are shilling. Some are gassing. We're all pretty smart and I can tell the difference.
> 
> When I read endless fluff from the same people, I learn to avoid those threads (no time). Same for hardcore shilling, whiners and the clueless. I DO miss some excellent advice from brilliant people when I do that but it's how I edit, or I'd spend my life on here. Dump all requests for cross-promo to hit a milestone in the same mega-thread and I probably won't make that mega-thread a regular stop on my drive-by days. Create "earned" privilege layers and I will eventually lose interest entirely. (Who needs more of that?)
> 
> If "Tweet me so I can hit the NYT list" posts are verboten, then I don't get to make my own choice about reading them. AND, indies-helping-indies to rock the world loses, too. The more of you on the NYT list, the closer I can see it. That's a nice view. I'd hate to lose it. Just as I'd hate to lose the crazy mix of personalities and energy on this list.


What Maren said. I don't think there's a huge problem right now, and I like this to be a place where we feel comfortable asking each other for help on a promo now and then. No threads that say "Buy my book!", but occasional threads like TG's are fine by me. If I don't want to read them, I won't click. Simple as that.

If we get buried under a string of posts like that, well, sure--let's revisit.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

ゴジラ said:


> Okay, I actually read this thread now (I'm so useful), and I have a very gross taste in my mouth from the last several pages of it.
> 
> Blech.


But you get brownie points for actually reading the whole thread. 


Betsy


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Sounds like an interesting experiment. Although, I think both will die quick deaths and be utterly useless for all the reasons already stated. Everyone is constantly chasing a new milestone and it would become a quagmire of self-promotion, redirects to author blogs, inconsistent genres that prevents meaningful cross-pollination of fan bases and any meaningful post would be lost among the individual requests for assistance. Few people, regardless of how passionate they are about helping their fellow writers, are going to wade through pages and pages to find scenarios they can help with over reading individual threads.
> 
> And any opportunity that is time sensitive would almost certainly fail. Page 2 is a fading memory around here and almost any thread on page 3 requires a miracle to be resurrected, which is similar to wading through pages and pages of a single thread. And since people would stop following the thread and therefore helping anyone, people would stop posting.
> 
> ...


Well, the "Have you posted to your blog?" thread is 462 pages and counting. If mega-thread on something as diverse as blog postings is still around, why not cross-promos and milestones?


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Just going to admit it up front: thread is too long, didn't read past p.2 -- gotta write at least a little tonight! Maybe the conversation has shifted from Harvey's original question. Sooo, if this is passe, please ignore.

1) When someone is a years-long major presence in the WC, I'd like to see a little lenience offered in very special circumstances. There's got to be a difference between those folks and a brand new member who hasn't spent two or three or four years helping build the community and giving generously to others. Yes, this means there's one of those big old nasty gray areas for our mods to deal with. Seems worth it to me.

2) Some WCers' blogs are specifically oriented toward the publishing business. When those writers provide links to their posts, I don't see that as book promotion; such posts seem very on-target with our interests, here. Something like, "Hey, look, I got interviewed on such-and-such blog!" ... yes, that's more promotional and probably shouldn't be allowed.

3) I really miss some of the longtime members we've lost in the last year, folks like George Berger. Others whose posts I used to love to read are still here (I think) but post so much less often than they once did. Keeping longtime members here and active is important to me. Without such people, things start feeling superficial, and a lot of "institutional memory" disappears.


----------



## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

So... for clarification:

-There's going to be a mega-thread to help people reach milestones, but this thread will not be about buying people's books, but about cross-promotion.

-This thread, however, will NOT supplant already-in-place cross-promo threads like the NA cross promo thread (and my baby mystery/thriller thread that is buried someplace, but will someday rule the interwebz like Thor's mighty hammer).

Yes?

If so, I am cool with that.

If this new get-milestones thread now means that we can't have genre-specific cross-promo threads, I will probably pout a lot (and maybe wear sackcloth and ashes, or wail and gnash my teeth, or something else equally biblical and overly dramatic--but just metaphorically, not literally, since I don't even know where to get sackcloth these days.)


----------



## Thisiswhywecan&#039;thavenicethings (May 3, 2013)

> since I don't even know where to get sackcloth these days


They probably carry it on Amazon


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Laura Vryhof said:


> They probably carry [sack cloth] on Amazon.


Sure enough!


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Sure enough!


'Bout time for me to order a new set of these. We make the kids wear them.

(They're the best bibs in the world.)


----------



## 48306 (Jul 6, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> What makes these unique threads so powerful is that they are singular - visible - and everyone can muster their resources all at the same time - if they so choose to get involved. They can make a difference.


This was exactly my thought. I really hope TG made her goal and if she did, would she have gotten the visibility she needed during the timely manner she needed it in if the thread wasn't an individual one? Remember that the last person who posts to those mega threads isn't necessarily the one asking for help. (and that's all we see as we're skimming through). It could be someone saying they've helped. And I don't always check every single post on those super long mega threads every single day. An individual post stands out. That's the point. We can choose to act on it or not. It's our prerogative. For that matter, I've seen many people post about new businesses of formatting, offering covers, etc. I think that's great it gives me a chance to check it out if I want, but again those are individual posts. Should there now be a mega, "I'm a cover artist, check me out" thread? Do you see how this can quickly become a slippery slope? Personally, I prefer individual posts, because then I get a chance see feedback and the person's back and forth. That would get lost in a mega thread for any subject.

I do like the idea of genre specific mega threads. I think that's awesome to narrow the scope for very specific help.

It sounds like you all have made a decision about "help me reach a big milestone posts", so we'll see how that plays out, but I do believe that people will lose that chance at higher visibility that the whole community could've provided if they choose to get involved/help out.


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm quite surprised the idea that "everyone should be treated equally" is so controversial.

I'm not talking about anyone's past actions in particular, but don't those arguing for special treatment not see the dangers in not treating people equally? How do you think someone selling a couple of books a month is gonna feel if those selling 1,000 a month are given extra privileges?


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

valeriec80 said:


> So... for clarification:
> 
> -There's going to be a mega-thread to help people reach milestones, but this thread will not be about buying people's books, but about cross-promotion.
> 
> ...


There are two separate items:

1. A single megathread for "help me reach my next milestone." That thread is in place now:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,289.0.html

2. Still taking input on how we handle cross-promo opportunities that drive people to author's personal pages... but I think a consensus is forming that, as those arise, we put them in a genre-specific cross-promo thread. There already are threads like that (e.g. for New Adult and for Romance). That seems a compromise that will probably not please everyone but enables those cross-promo opportunities to get reasonable visibility as opposed to a single (non-genre-specific) megathread.


----------



## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I do think a mega thread is the consensus opinion and a good idea. But I also know that eventually some thread will be created that doesn't cleanly fit but that some people think should be in there and some don't. It's the way life works.
> 
> Betsy
> 
> Sent from my Fire HDX7


I'm still reading the thread, but how about two mega threads:

Milestone City (post about your milestones achieved and approaching)

and

Promo Palooza - (post your invitations to cross-promote and special support events here)

EDIT --> done now. sigh. I shouldn't post before reading the whole thing. Looks like it's headed that way. I do think it would be useful to keep any cross-support threads separated by genre.


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

^ That's okay -- it's a long thread! FYI we will still allow celebratory threads for when people actually hit milestones. (i.e. those won't be grouped into megathreads.)


----------



## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Harvey said:


> ^ That's okay -- it's a long thread! FYI we will still allow celebratory threads for when people actually hit milestones. (i.e. those won't be grouped into megathreads.)


Don't we already have one of those? It's been around for a long time. I don't mean "what gave your day a bump." I think the title is "Tell us your reason to celebrate."


----------



## gonedark (May 30, 2013)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Don't we already have one of those? It's been around for a long time. I don't mean "what gave your day a bump." I think the title is "Tell us your reason to celebrate."


That is true. But from a moderation perspective, we don't require that those celebratory posts be in that thread; we allow them to be posted as individual threads.


----------



## Bookside Manner (Aug 24, 2013)

telracs said:


> I find it funny that people are saying the book bazaar doesn't work, and that it's for readers. The reason it doesn't work is because people don't post there.


I've considered posting in the Book Bazaar thread, but frankly I'm too nervous of making a misstep and making people mad to do so.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

We don't get mad, we get even.


Um...no, that's not what I meant.  I meant, if you do something wrong, we'll let you know in a non-angry kind of way and help you figure it out!

Betsy


----------

