# Are there levels of erotica?



## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm thinking about trying my hand at erotica and I'm trying to figure out what classifies a book as erotica. 2 of my books already have a number of sex scenes in it. And since one of my books is about a talking penis, I do use various names for body parts in it. So where is the line between erotica and a novel (or short story) with multiple sex scenes?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> I'm thinking about trying my hand at erotica and I'm trying to figure out what classifies a book as erotica. 2 of my books already have a number of sex scenes in it. And since one of my books is about a talking penis, I do use various names for body parts in it. So where is the line between erotica and a novel (or short story) with multiple sex scenes?


First, the obvious is to read some erotica. Not the badly written porn a lot of people are passing off as erotica. Real erotica (I can send some title names). In erotica, the sex is necessary. It's not enough to just have sex scenes, if the sex and the tension/conflict surrounding it isn't propelling the story line. And, yes, there needs to be an actual plot, not just "oh look, let's insert tab A into slot B."

There is erotic romance (or romantic erotica, depending on who you ask), erotica, and dozens of subgenres under erotica. Think of hard science fiction (not space opera). The story collapses without the science. Likewise, the erotica collapses without the sex.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> First, the obvious is to read some erotica. Not the badly written porn a lot of people are passing off as erotica. Real erotica (I can send some title names). In erotica, the sex is necessary. It's not enough to just have sex scenes, if the sex and the tension/conflict surrounding it isn't propelling the story line. And, yes, there needs to be an actual plot, not just "oh look, let's insert tab A into slot B."
> 
> There is erotic romance (or romantic erotica, depending on who you ask), erotica, and dozens of subgenres under erotica. Think of hard science fiction (not space opera). The story collapses without the science. Likewise, the erotica collapses without the sex.


What sells better, story-based erotica or the badly written porn that a lot of people are passing off as erotica? And does the story-based erotica exist in short-story form?


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

*Levels of Erotica: A Smart-Aleck Top 5 List:*

Erotica, Level 01: "Gosh, Joanie, I'd sure like it if we could go out on a second date!"

Erotica, Level 02: Joanie Loves Chachi

Erotica, Level 03: Joanie *Loves* Chachi

Erotica, Level 04: Joanie &^@$# Chachi!

Erotica, Level 05: Joanie &^@$# Chachi, Fonzie, her brother Richie, and has a strange interlude with Pinky Tuscadaro! (a/k/a "the badly written porn that a lot of people are passing off as erotica")


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> *Levels of Erotica: A Smart-Aleck Top 5 List:*
> 
> Erotica, Level 01: "Gosh, Joanie, I'd sure like it if we could go out on a second date!"
> 
> ...


Haha! 

But seriously...


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

Is ALL porn badly-written


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## jackKate (Aug 7, 2011)

Oh Craig, that was hilarious - love it. We sort of went to level 5B, hate to say it but it's our best seller overall.

I think the point is, perhaps you should write the story in your head, rather than trying to write something for a given market, quite often the end result is more accepted, so long as you can find the _right_ market.

Everyone has different tastes.


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

I don't understand the "badly-written porn" vs "well-written erotica" terms. Are you saying that there isn't badly-written 'erotic romance', and that there isn't well-written 'porn'? Do bad writers only write porn, while good writers only write erotic romance/erotica?

They are just different genres. I wouldn't say "badly-written Westerns" just because they aren't my cup of tea.


Anyway, the line is too blurred to make any sort of distinction. For example, my story "Pretty & Plump" is about a man who has fallen for his curvy neighbour but daren't tell her because he is afraid of what his work colleagues/friends would say. After a kiss, he rejects her but then goes home and realises he isn't being true to himself. He goes around to her apartment and what follows is a graphic sex scene. The story ends with him asking her out to his company picnic. He will face his colleagues and to hell with it.

Is that porn or erotica or erotic romance? Is it badly-written because it has a graphic sex scene?


Angelina


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## jackKate (Aug 7, 2011)

AJHamilton said:


> Is ALL porn badly-written


I certainly don't think so - sure there's plenty of bad ones out there but isn't that the case with _all_ genres ?


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

Literotica has some good - and bad - examples.


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

ilyria_moon said:


> Literotica has some good - and bad - examples.


Yes.....so why is the word 'porn' constantly prefixed with the phrase 'badly-written'?


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I guess I write mild erotica.  Mine is between people that care about each other and cover sex that men and women do together.  I don't write about lesbians or homosexuals.  Also I stay away from profanity and violence. 

However, my erotica isn't always just a man and a woman, but sometimes involves a man and more than one woman. Some of the sex scenes are the man and women having group sex.  There are things that two women can do to a man that one woman could never do.

My Hawkins Family series is about a plural marriage of a man and his five wives.  In the Parallel Universe, which is about the Hawkins Family again, I even gave him another wife so he had six, but that is stretching it a little, but since she came with a ranch, she was worth adding.

By having this many women characters, it gave me a lot opportunity to develop some good characters and their relationships between each other.

However, my novels have a lot of storyline and the sex is just thrown in for interest and fun.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

That question, "What sells better," it always makes me cringe about the "product." I'd say whatever is written imaginatively and with a bit of spirit instead of with dollarsigns in your eyes is best. 

Read some erotica, and see what you like. I wouldn't recommend just writing out some sex if you haven't read the genre(s) at all.

ETA: I am pretty sure I'm repeating myself, so I apologize, but I have always felt that porn, erotica, romantic erotica and erotic romance all have different aspects, appeal to their audiences in different ways, and have different purposes - this doesn't make one any "better" than the other, except for the quality of each individual book. Erotica with a plot = slow-building arousing read; porn = would like a quicker build. Sometimes, people want to follow a story, and sometimes they want the sex a bit quicker. Quality varies within both, but don't disrespect the genres if they are living up to their purpose/audience/standards.


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> First, the obvious is to read some erotica. Not the badly written porn a lot of people are passing off as erotica. Real erotica (I can send some title names). In erotica, the sex is necessary. It's not enough to just have sex scenes, if the sex and the tension/conflict surrounding it isn't propelling the story line. And, yes, there needs to be an actual plot, not just "oh look, let's insert tab A into slot B."


Since I don't want to misunderstand, can you please tell us what you meant by "the badly written porn"? Exactly what are you referencing here? I understand taste is subjective but I'd like to know what exactly it is you're looking down on...


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## jackKate (Aug 7, 2011)

If you want some interesting baseline research, there's always the nicely written victorian classic erotica stories, you'd be delighted by how provocatively they did write


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> ETA: I am pretty sure I'm repeating myself, so I apologize, but I have always felt that porn, erotica, romantic erotica and erotic romance all have different aspects, appeal to their audiences in different ways, and have different purposes - this doesn't make one any "better" than the other, except for the quality of each individual book. Erotica with a plot = slow-building arousing read; porn = would like a quicker build. Sometimes, people want to follow a story, and sometimes they want the sex a bit quicker. Quality varies within both, but don't disrespect the genres if they are living up to their purpose/audience/standards.


THIS. Some people like the erotic shorts with a wham-bam-thank-you approach, some like slower-building but similarly hot stories. I like the 5-tiered list mentioned earlier but even within those bullet points there's various levels.


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## AKLoggie (Aug 13, 2011)

AJHamilton said:


> Yes.....so why is the word 'porn' constantly prefixed with the phrase 'badly-written'?


I think it's just easier to go off the rails when it's more sex-focused. Sometimes it's like written one handed...


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

AKLoggie said:


> I think it's just easier to go off the rails when it's more sex-focused. Sometimes it's like written one handed...


As long as it's not edited one-handed, as well...


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> there's always the nicely written victorian classic erotica stories, you'd be delighted by how provocatively they did write


That is true. Victorian erotic stories and novels were very well written and worth reading.


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

Yes, and Level 5 isn't always "the badly written porn that a lot of people are passing off as erotica" either. I've read some very well written erotica that has group sex scenes or same gender sexual encounters. It's all about characterization. If the reader only gets a look at what's on the surface (what the characters are doing with no indication of what they're thinking, what motivates them, what they're feeling) then it's porn, IMO. If the reader gets a good sense of what's going on under the surface (if there are emotions at play), it's erotica.

But that's just my definition. I've been writing erotica/erotic romance for years. I've read MANY definitions of the genres. They've all been slightly different.


Ladyeclectic said:


> THIS. Some people like the erotic shorts with a wham-bam-thank-you approach, some like slower-building but similarly hot stories. I like the 5-tiered list mentioned earlier but even within those bullet points there's various levels.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

tawnytaylor said:


> It's all about characterization. If the reader only gets a look at what's on the surface (what the characters are doing with no indication of what they're thinking, what motivates them, what they're feeling) then it's porn, IMO. If the reader gets a good sense of what's going on under the surface (if there are emotions at play), it's erotica.


Tawn,
I really like this definition. I think I will adopt it.

And since I no longer believe in the idea that you should just write what comes out, I have 2 more questions for everyone. For those that have written a lot of erotica/porn, what sells better for you, the 'wham-bam' stuff or the 'I think, therefore I have sex' stuff?

Also, what length has ended up being the most profitable for you? Is it closer to 4000 words or 20,000 words?

I plot out my stories before I write them so I'm trying to figure out how many acts the story needs to make it the type of story that appeals to the largest number of readers. I'm sorry if I sound clinical. But this is my process for all of my books. And once I decide my parameters, I then let my creative juices flow. Amazingly the stories I come up with always fit nicely within my original parameters.


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

You're very welcome to use my definition 

For me, the full length novels have been most successful. And those novels have been "plotty" meaning they have a substantial outside plot (like suspense), not just romance and sex.

I hope that helps!


Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Tawn,
> I really like this definition. I think I will adopt it.
> 
> And since I no longer believe in the idea that you should just write what comes out, I have 2 more questions for everyone. For those that have written a lot of erotica/porn, what sells better for you, the 'wham-bam' stuff or the 'I think, therefore I have sex' stuff?
> ...


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2011)

AJHamilton said:


> I don't understand the "badly-written porn" vs "well-written erotica" terms. Are you saying that there isn't badly-written 'erotic romance', and that there isn't well-written 'porn'? Do bad writers only write porn, while good writers only write erotic romance/erotica?
> 
> They are just different genres. I wouldn't say "badly-written Westerns" just because they aren't my cup of tea.
> 
> ...


Angelina dear, I think we should grab a bottle of Pinot Noir, get together and hash out these questions. Some of them will require much investigation, something I do quite well, I'm told.

Seriously, we tend to associate porn with poor writing, simply because much porn (though not all) doesn't have to use the same characterization, similitude, pacing and elegance of language that other genres do. It's simply all about titillation and explicit sex scenes, often with little or wispy plotting. Still, I do think porn can be written to a high literary level. Erotica on the other hand doesn't delve as deeply (sorry!) into the graphic aspects of sexual acts.

I have tried to include steamy scenes in my novels that skirt the line between erotica and porn, but in every case move the story forward and underline Mike's conflict with the carnal and his slow progression to full commitment with Molly. He has a weakness for females in trouble together with an over-active libido; Molly on the other hand is willing to wait for him to figure it all out and has given him a dictum to "fib when you have to," and a "no matter what" sort of adoration. This setup adds quite a bit of tension to each novel, and I get as graphic as I can without dipping into (sorry!) porn.


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## jackKate (Aug 7, 2011)

I was once told;   

  If you're using a feather - it's erotica
  If you're using the whole bird - it's porn

 

Humour aside, I suspect books of this nature with a deeper/stronger aspect to them tend to survive a lot longer and grow better in the market.  

Interestingly, ours wasn't strongly plotted out at the start, rather it was just a hot furious beast that developed over a month and demanded to be put to paper.  I think we all work in different ways to attain our end piece.

Jack.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

tawnytaylor said:


> For me, the full length novels have been most successful. And those novels have been "plotty" meaning they have a substantial outside plot (like suspense), not just romance and sex.


So you're saying that 40,000 words is closer to your sweet spot for success?


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

AJHamilton said:


> Yes.....so why is the word 'porn' constantly prefixed with the phrase 'badly-written'?


Is it?


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

ilyria_moon said:


> Is it?


Yes...in every post above my first post.


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> Angelina dear, I think we should grab a bottle of Pinot Noir, get together and hash out these questions. Some of them will require much investigation, something I do quite well, I'm told.


It'd take more than a bottle of Pinot Noir to answer these questions.


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

I hesitate to give you a word count because it's going to be determined by how frugal you are with your words. In order for you to be successful writing a plotty erotic novel, you'll need to spend adequate words on three plot arcs: 1. the sex 2. the romance and 3. the external story/suspense/whatever. If you skimp on any of them, your readers will let you know you screwed up 

My best reviewed, most popular novels are over 60,000 words. It seems I need that many to get the job done and tie up all three threads. Any less than that, and some readers are dissatisfied. I'm not an overly descriptive writer. I have a lot of dialogue and my paragraphs aren't dense. So 65,000 words equates to about 400-450 manuscript pages, using MS Word's wordcount tool.

You may be able to accomplish what you need to with fewer or more words. It has a great deal to do with your voice.



Cristian YoungMiller said:


> So you're saying that 40,000 words is closer to your sweet spot for success?


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> And since I no longer believe in the idea that you should just write what comes out, I have 2 more questions for everyone. For those that have written a lot of erotica/porn, what sells better for you, the 'wham-bam' stuff or the 'I think, therefore I have sex' stuff?
> 
> Also, what length has ended up being the most profitable for you? Is it closer to 4000 words or 20,000 words?


Well since I try to get characterisation and motivation into my stories but only others can say if I am successful at that, I can't answer the first question.

As for length, I would say that for me, it is the 4000 region if I take into account the amount of time invested vs the return.

Angelia


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

tawnytaylor said:


> I'm not an overly descriptive writer. I have a lot of dialogue and my paragraphs aren't dense. So 65,000 words equates to about 400-450 manuscript pages, using MS Word's wordcount tool.
> 
> You may be able to accomplish what you need to with fewer or more words. It has a great deal to do with your voice.


It once took me 850 words to describe a


Spoiler



nipple


.

And then 700 more to describe the other.

My editor (who is also my wife) red-lined it all and substituted the word 'perky'.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

AJHamilton said:


> For example, my story "Pretty & Plump" is about a man who has fallen for his curvy neighbour but daren't tell her because he is afraid of what his work colleagues/friends would say. After a kiss, he rejects her but then goes home and realises he isn't being true to himself. He goes around to her apartment and what follows is a graphic sex scene. The story ends with him asking her out to his company picnic. He will face his colleagues and to hell with it.


Honestly, it sound more like contemporary romance. Whether or not a plot focuses on the sex or the relationship is pretty much a dividing line between romance and erotica, IMO. Kinkiness, graphic descriptions, heat levels don't really have much to do with it.


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

AJHamilton said:


> Yes...in every post above my first post.


Then perhaps you would be better addressing those who posted as such, and not projecting onto me.


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

Arkali said:


> Honestly, it sound more like contemporary romance. Whether or not a plot focuses on the sex or the relationship is pretty much a dividing line between romance and erotica, IMO. Kinkiness, graphic descriptions, heat levels don't really have much to do with it.


Ya think? lol


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

Ha! Sounds like your wife's a great editor 

On a side note, I just now figured out how to view the blacked out words.



swolf said:


> It once took me 850 words to describe a
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

ilyria_moon said:


> Then perhaps you would be better addressing those who posted as such, and not projecting onto me.


Sorry, I think you misunderstood me....I wasn't aiming that at you. I was agreeing with you. 
My bad for not being clearer.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

AJHamilton said:


> Ya think? lol


LOL Yepper. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. Actually, it sounds like a great story. God knows when I'll be able to grab a book again (seems like lately all my reading time is Oops books) but I'm putting it on my TBR list


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

Arkali said:


> LOL Yepper. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. Actually, it sounds like a great story. God knows when I'll be able to grab a book again (seems like lately all my reading time is Oops books) but I'm putting it on my TBR list


Then it's official...I'm a contemporary romance writer. I probably shouldn't even be on this thread. *goes to Romance Writers of America site*


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

I hope you're being sarcastic, AJ because I wouldn't be so hasty, to believe someone's opinion when they haven't read the book.

It's very hard to discern the difference between erotica and erotic romance...even after reading the whole book. The line is very blurry.


AJHamilton said:


> Then it's official...I'm a contemporary romance writer. I probably shouldn't even be on this thread. *goes to Romance Writers of America site*


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

tawnytaylor said:


> I hope you're being sarcastic, AJ because I wouldn't be so hasty, to believe someone opinion when they haven't read the book.
> 
> It's very hard to discern the difference between erotica and erotic romance...even after reading the whole book. The line is very blurry.


*comes back in through the Kindle Boards back door*


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

Welcome back 


AJHamilton said:


> *comes back in through the Kindle Boards back door*


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## Margo Lerwill (Jun 13, 2011)

Informative comments!  I wrote erotic romance a long time ago but never pursued doing anything with it.  Now that I'm looking for something fun to write that's different from my usual projects, I've been thinking about the erotic romance again.  But I've been wondering how profitable it is, the best length, etc, pretty much the same stuff that Cristian has been asking about.  Now I'm armed with some of the info I really wanted.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

AJHamilton said:


> *comes back in through the Kindle Boards back door*


Oh, I do know that most things involving a back door are more on the erotica side than the romance.

Do I get my genre-knowledge badge now?


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

I've found 4,000 words to be my sweet spot and like AJ I try not to scrimp on the characterization. I focus on the act but try to provide a context for it all. My latest story is all about the context leading up to the "dirty deed", and the sex provides something to the story arc (at 4k words and this being an erotic short, I hesitate to call it a "plot").

I've seen 10,000 word stories that depicted one scene and 25,000 word novellas that told an epic story. It all depends on the writer. 

As to what sells? I'll defer to others who've been at it longer than me but my first m/m short story has sold over 40 copies in it's first month, and I plan on adding more shorts to the stable soon. 

My advice? Write the best you can, edit it and put together your package (including cover art), release it to the public and see what happens. Don't rely on one story; shorts are easier to get out than novels so spend your time trying to write several. Now's the time to do it as it's a slow selling time. 

Oh, and good luck!!


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## AKLoggie (Aug 13, 2011)

AJHamilton said:


> *comes back in through the Kindle Boards back door*


ohhh, now you're back in erotica!

ETA: Bah, too slow on the joke!


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Oh, I do know that most things involving a back door are more on the erotica side than the romance.
> 
> Do I get my genre-knowledge badge now?


*dies laughing*


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Franklin Eddy said:


> That is true. Victorian erotic stories and novels were very well written and worth reading.


Ahh. Obviously someone has discovered a copy of (the well-written, but very erotic) CARMILLA by J. Sheridan LeFanu!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> What sells better, story-based erotica or the badly written porn that a lot of people are passing off as erotica? And does the story-based erotica exist in short-story form?


I have no idea what sells better. Best to ask the experts 

There is a lot of really good erotica in short form. Jackie Barbosa (spelling?) has a good Regency erotica novella out. It has a funny scene with a


Spoiler



cucumber and a curious virgin


, which is worth the read alone.

Erotica really gets to experiment with length in a way that many genres could only fantasize about. It's hard to pull off a cozy murder mystery in 5000 words without feeling rushed, but an erotica can really twist your brain around in 5000 words. I admire the folks who can write erotica because they get a lot of freedom in their experimentation that not everyone can get in their own genres. Not to mention, erotica is quite difficult to write for a lot of people.

ETA: It's Jackie Barbosa's "Carnally Ever After" (had to go confirm)


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Ahh. Obviously someone has discovered a copy of (the well-written, but very erotic) CARMILLA by J. Sheridan LeFanu!


People didn't know about sex back then. *swoons*


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I have no idea what sells better. Best to ask the experts
> 
> There is a lot of really good erotica in short form. Jackie Barbosa (spelling?) has a good Regency erotica novella out. It has a funny scene with a
> 
> ...


Thank goodness it was Regency. I really hope that was an English cucumber, and not an American one.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Thanks goodness it was Regency. I really hope that was an English cucumber, and not an American one.


I believe it was


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I believe it was


Well, that's a mercy.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

ilyria_moon said:


> Literotica has some good - and bad - examples.


Really, really bad examples. 

I do remember a really good one on there years ago that was more of an historical erotica. I often wondered if she went on and cleaned it up/published it, because she clearly had worked really hard on it. The research alone was top of the line.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Well, that's a mercy.


*wipes down monitor*


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Really, really bad examples.
> 
> I do remember a really good one on there years ago that was more of an historical erotica. I often wondered if she went on and cleaned it up/published it, because she clearly had worked really hard on it. The research alone was top of the line.


When I first started writing erotica (I started in romance, and decided to see if I could), I remember thinking, "No one will ever pay for sexy stories - they are free everywhere!"

So, I think the most solid marketing tip for erotica would be to make sure whatever you're producing is better than what people can find for free, on sites like Literotica. It does have some good stuff, as well as bad, but is a good thing to keep in mind as a competitor, IMO.

What are you giving readers that makes it worth paying for?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Ladyeclectic said:


> Since I don't want to misunderstand, can you please tell us what you meant by "the badly written porn"? Exactly what are you referencing here? I understand taste is subjective but I'd like to know what exactly it is you're looking down on...


I meant badly...written...porn. The kind that you get on a number of "erotica" literature sites that are badly...written...porn. Not erotica, not well-crafted porn, but badly....written...porn.

I am looking down on badly...written...porn.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> When I first started writing erotica (I started in romance, and decided to see if I could), I remember thinking, "No one will ever pay for sexy stories - they are free everywhere!"
> 
> So, I think the most solid marketing tip for erotica would be to make sure whatever you're producing is better than what people can find for free, on sites like Literotica. It does have some good stuff, as well as bad, but is a good thing to keep in mind as a competitor, IMO.
> 
> What are you giving readers that makes it worth paying for?


*nod*

Also, your advise earlier really needs to be repeated: read in that genre/subgenre. If you are going to write whips and chains, read some of the popular ones. If you are going to write sweet romance, read some of those.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I meant badly...written...porn. The kind that you get on a number of "erotica" literature sites that are badly...written...porn. Not erotica, not well-crafted porn, but badly....written...porn.
> 
> I am looking down on badly...written...porn.


I think the question people are asking is whether you consider "badly written" as part of the definition of porn, or whether you are specifically speaking of poorly written examples of porn literature. I.e. "It's erotica if it's well-written, and porn if it's not."

At least, that is how I understand the thread thus far.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> *nod*
> 
> Also, your advise earlier really needs to be repeated: read in that genre/subgenre. If you are going to write whips and chains, read some of the popular ones. If you are going to write sweet romance, read some of those.


And for the love of Mike don't accidentally mix up the two!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I think the question people are asking is whether you consider "badly written" as part of the definition of porn, or whether you are specifically speaking of poorly written examples of porn literature. I.e. "It's erotica if it's well-written, and porn if it's not."
> 
> At least, that is how I understand the thread thus far.


It isn't erotica if it's well-written, since erotica is different than porn. However, a lot of folks who don't read erotica but see dollar signs when they hear "write sex, make money"*, they just assume erotica is like that really cheesy porn they watched over at a buddy's when they were 16 and that's been their experience with the genre. Don't laugh: I've encountered this people on my writing journeys over the years. They write badly...written...porn and try to call it erotica. It's not the same thing. Hell, it's not even porn. It's just bad.

*the OP is not being referred to in this sentence, as I have no idea what his reading habits are. I'm speaking in general, not particular, terms.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It isn't erotica if it's well-written, since erotica is different than porn. However, a lot of folks who don't read erotica but see dollar signs when they hear "write sex, make money"*, they just assume erotica is like that really cheesy porn they watched over at a buddy's when they were 16 and that's been their experience with the genre. Don't laugh: I've encountered this people on my writing journeys over the years. They write badly...written...porn and try to call it erotica. It's not the same thing. Hell, it's not even porn. It's just bad.
> 
> *the OP is not being referred to in this sentence, as I have no idea what his reading habits are. I'm speaking in general, not particular, terms.


Agreed. This is why I bristle whenever I hear, "Hey, sexy happy smutty books sell, right?" Because I fear it will be "crank out the 1k of bad words" time, or "so, I went to this convent to deliver a pizza..." letters to Penthouse type stories. Otherwise, I do understand the urge to plan, to logically approach writing, etc, but I do get edgy when I suspect the person in question doesn't actually read any of it, because I can only guess what their mental image of erotica is.

Basically, I can appreciate people seeing writing as a business, since that's smart, but I kind of shake my head at the occasional writer who openly describes stories as product entirely adaptable to the market, as if the specifics don't matter at all - as if, "red hats sell better than yellow, so make more red ones." This is because I believe, despite how many people perceive erotica, the readers do care about the specifics, and it's not good to be terribly less in tune with the genre than your target audience is.

(Likewise, not referring to the OP, since I don't know him or his work.)


----------



## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Oh, you guys are a whoot! Perhaps the funniest thread I've read here.

This is all very helpful for me. I seem to be in this sales vacuum right now. So instead of writing another *Everybody vs The Ferret* book as my "clear the creative pipes" outlet, I thought that I might try my hand in one of the most popular genres and help other people clear their pipes. 

I'm planning on writing it under a pen name because I'm already pushing the boundaries with having *Everybody M* and *Happiness Thru the Art of... Penis Enlargement * under one name (I seriously didn't think that parents would end up as the primary buyer of the books). And in writing under a pen name I'm hoping that I can shake this sales curse that I appear to be under.

But from reading what everyone has written I now know who the 2 main characters will be in my erotic story (not porn apparently) and I know what the thrust of the story will be. I think what I will do is make each story a certain number of sexual encounters, but do a series of books around these two characters where the sexual tension is always extremely high but they never consummate it.

I'm just hoping that I don't add in too much characterization. I really just want to see large number of sales next to a book that I've written. I think I feel like a basketball player does when he's in a slump. The only thing that gets them out of it is to see their ball go through the hoop. I need to write something where makes my ball go through the hoop.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I do get edgy when I suspect the person in question doesn't actually read any of it, because I can only guess what their mental image of erotica is.


...which often becomes (say it with me) badly...written...porn.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> "so, I went to this convent to deliver a pizza..."


"...and ended up fixing the cable. Weird night."

I can steal that, right? It's mine? I COPYRIGHT THAT.

*off to KDP to make millions*


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> the thrust of the story


tee hee He's talking about


Spoiler



sex


.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

What I would advise, Cristian, is to go to a good erotica review site, and look at their recent reviews. Find ones that work, ones you can see yourself writing, ones that they enjoy, and look at them on Amazon. Sample them, look at their customer reviews, and sales, and if you still like what you see, buy them, and read them. It's really hard to write genre lit without reading genre lit, so those books may be he best way to learn.



Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Oh, you guys are a whoot! Perhaps the funniest thread I've read here.
> 
> This is all very helpful for me. I seem to be in this sales vacuum right now. So instead of writing another *Everybody vs The Ferret* book as my "clear the creative pipes" outlet, I thought that I might try my hand in one of the most popular genres and help other people clear their pipes.
> 
> ...


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> "...and ended up fixing the cable. Weird night."
> 
> I can steal that, right? It's mine? I COPYRIGHT THAT.
> 
> *off to KDP to make millions*


It's all yours. But I do expect a mention in the dedication.


----------



## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It isn't erotica if it's well-written, since erotica is different than porn. However, a lot of folks who don't read erotica but see dollar signs when they hear "write sex, make money"*,


I'm not going to lie to you, I see 'write sex' and I think 'make sales.' But at the same time I think that I'm incapable of writing outside of my style. I have written graphic sex scenes before. And 2 of my books are based around sex (the search for intimacy which the main characters find as a result of their overindulgence and overemphasis on sex).

How I'm thinking about the book is that this/these novelettes will be 'sexual coming of age' sort of stories that have more sex per page than my other books. One character will be an innocent and the other a rogue. One has a lot of morally questionable sex and the other desperately wants to experience the other's sexual freedom.

But I'm absolutely not going to lie to you, I won't be writting for the art of it. I have Samurai Zombie Hunter and Red Reaper for that. 

ETA: Oh, and I'll base the characters on actual people that I've met over the years. I'll base it on some of the really, really interesting people I've met over the years. So in my mind, I guess, I won't really be writing erotica. I guess that I'll just be writing one of my usual books, where again the characters place too high of an emphasis on sex... really hot graphic sweaty sex.

Oh crap, I feel myself slipping out of the genre... Hmm, maybe I will try to write "badly written porn". Maybe that would be a good exercise for me. Hmmm...


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

I agree! It isn't a question of should; it's a MUST. Read, read, read. Read what's selling well. Read what's receiving great reviews.


anne_holly said:


> What I would advise, Cristian, is to go to a good erotica review site, and look at their recent reviews. Find ones that work, ones you can see yourself writing, ones that they enjoy, and look at them on Amazon. Sample them, look at their customer reviews, and sales, and if you still like what you see, buy them, and read them. It's really hard to write genre lit without reading genre lit, so those books may be he best way to learn.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> tee hee He's talking about
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


That's the word you noticed in a post talking about balls?


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

tawnytaylor said:


> I agree! It isn't a question of should; it's a MUST. Read, read, read. Read what's selling well. Read what's receiving great reviews.


I would have said "must," but I'm kinda a neo-hippie, so I feel like I have to talk in terms of "shoulds" and "if you wants". It's a cross, but I bear it well.


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## DelilahFawkes (May 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Erotica really gets to experiment with length in a way that many genres could only fantasize about.


Really? No one touched this one?  ROFL

I started reading this thread, stopped and thought "Hey! I write *well written* porn," and then was happy when that was all hashed out on page 2.

Anyway, to answer the OP's question, my most popular stories are in the 3500-4000 range. My novella is doing alright, but nowhere near my stories. Strangely, that one is a character driven sci fi erotic romance. My porn does better .

I hope that helps, and best of luck to you!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> That's the word you noticed in a post talking about balls?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

DelilahFawkes said:


> Really? No one touched this one?  ROFL


It hurt my feelings, too


----------



## DelilahFawkes (May 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It hurt my feelings, too


I'm here for you, Krista.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

DelilahFawkes said:


> I'm here for you, Krista.


*sniffle* Thanks.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It hurt my feelings, too


*there there*

I can only double-entendre-pun so often in one day before a British man in a nightgown comes and slaps me with a rubber fish.

I've asked him to stop, but he says it's the law.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> *there there*
> 
> I can only double-entendre-pun so often in one day before a British man in a nightgown comes and slaps me with a rubber fish.
> 
> I've asked him to stop, but he says it's the law.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


>


Okay, you had me when you liked my pizza delivery boy, but now I want to have your ebabies.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Okay, you had me when you liked my pizza delivery boy, but now I want to have your ebabies.


Are you kidding? Do you know how many opportunities I've had to topically cite the fish slapping dance? One. ONE. And I've had that up my sleeve FOREVER. You are a gift.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Are you kidding? Do you know how many opportunities I've had to topically cite the fish slapping dance? One. ONE. And I've had that up my sleeve FOREVER. You are a gift.


It's a Canadian thing. We do it all the time.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Krista D. Ball]
It hurt my feelings said:


> I'm here for you, Krista.


[/quote]

Sounds like a classic erotica set-up. Cue corny 70s music and cease dialog...  rotflmao


----------



## JenniferConner (Jun 25, 2011)

Books to Go Now that I write for takes romance shorter than 40,000 words. Erotica is such a 'personal' taste and on sooooo many levels. It's hard to pinpoint isn't it! I think what I write as more Romantica. I loved the previous post with Joannie and Chachi. Yes... There is some CRAZY stuff out there that I am not nearly limber enough to see if it is even possible before writing it!!! Ha! Write what you feel comfortable with, and it will be a better story!


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

JenniferConner said:


> Books to Go Now that I write for takes romance shorter than 40,000 words. Erotica is such a 'personal' taste and on sooooo many levels. It's hard to pinpoint isn't it! I think what I write as more Romantica. I loved the previous post with Joannie and Chachi. Yes... There is some CRAZY stuff out there that I am not nearly limber enough to see if it is even possible before writing it!!! Ha! Write what you feel comfortable with, and it will be a better story!


As a sidenote, from someone who also writes "romantic erotica", Ellora's Cave has copyrighted the term romantica, I think, so I've avoided ever using the term to promote my own work.

And I refuse to comment on whether I try everything I write or not.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

DelilahFawkes said:


> I'm here for you, Krista.





Krista D. Ball said:


> *sniffle* Thanks.





anne_holly said:


> It's a Canadian thing. We do it all the time.


The Englishman with the fish is, at this point, possibly exhausted.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> The Englishman with the fish is, at this point, possibly exhausted.


That sounds like a challenge to me.

Okay - we have our writing cue. Everyone drop* and give me 4k about an Englishman with a fish... Go!

*Such an urge to add "your panties, Sir William" after that word, always.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> That sounds like a challenge to me.
> 
> Okay - we have our writing cue. Everyone drop and give me 4k about an Englishman with a fish... Go!


An..._erotic_ 4k?

About an _Englishman_?

_With a fish?_


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> An..._erotic_ 4k?
> 
> About an _Englishman_?
> 
> _With a fish?_


Yes. Subgenre is wide open, though.

Do I sense a new anthology being born...?


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Yes. Subgenre is wide open, though.
> 
> Do I sense a new anthology being born...?


Is erotic humor a thing?


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Yes. Subgenre is wide open, though.
> 
> Do I sense a new anthology being born...?


On a serious note... hmmm...


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Is erotic humor a thing?


That's my primary erotica subgenre now, actually. So, in answer to your question - I sure hope so.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> An..._erotic_ 4k?
> 
> About an _Englishman_?
> 
> _With a fish?_


I could serious write 4k words on an erotic story about an Englishman and a fish.

Ahh, is anyone else game?


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

I got dibsies on the mermaid angle.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Oh, mermaid angle. Nice!


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Oh, mermaid angle. Nice!


Already have my dedication:

"To Tom Hanks and Monty Python, who taught me everything I need to know about fish sex."


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Ok, a lot of English people live in my country (The Bahamas)... Paradise Island (Bahamas) has the largest outdoor aquarium in the world... Okay, I got mine! 

Wild vacation sex on a tropical island. Done!


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Ok, a lot of English people live in my country (The Bahamas)... Paradise Island (Bahamas) has the largest outdoor aquarium in the world... Okay, I got mine!


Oh dear. Came to KB asking advice, and left with a fish sex story.


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I got dibsies on the mermaid angle.


No you don't.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Ok, a lot of English people live in my country (The Bahamas)... Paradise Island (Bahamas) has the largest outdoor aquarium in the world... Okay, I got mine!
> 
> Wild vacation sex on a tropical island. Done!


You're lucky to live somewhere so conducive to stories. If I based it in Canada, the best I could do would be a lonely fisherman playing with his dingy...

Oh no, I just got slapped. I believe this time, it was a halibut.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

AJHamilton said:


> No you don't.


I was speaking in terms of this specific little challenge. I had in no way assumed mermaids were new territory. Not since Ariel ran around in those flimsy little clam shells, at least.

ETA: The story I have in my mind, entirely against my will, is... different. Yes, we'll stick to different as a descriptor.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> That's my primary erotica subgenre now, actually. So, in answer to your question - I sure hope so.


If I were to do this, I'm not sure I could write in any other genre.


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I was speaking in terms of this specific little challenge. I had in no way assumed mermaids were new territory. Not since Ariel ran around in those flimsy little clam shells, at least.


LMAO


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> If I were to do this, I'm not sure I could write in any other genre.


I'm entitling mine, "Fishwife."


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

AJHamilton said:


> No you don't.


Yes, but is Dean an Englishman?


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I'm entitling mine, "Fish Wife."


The companion piece to "Fish Nuts."

Hmm. That needs work.

"Fish Balls"?

...

"Roe"?


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> The companion piece to "Fish Nuts."
> 
> Hmm. That needs work.
> 
> ...


Sounds good, but what's your hook?

GET IT?

HOOK!

Thanks, folks! I'll be here all week!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

anne_holly said:


> I got dibsies on the mermaid angle.


Mermaid angle?

Smells fishy to me...


----------



## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Yes, but is Dean an Englishman?


Yes!


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

I hope that, one day, some salt-encrusted mariner who's grandkids just taught him how to use the wireless sits down and, in a misguided attempt to find a companion, googles "Fish Wife." 

And this is the thread he finds.

Hello, Old Man of the Sea! We love you! This is in good fun.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

This can go into my collection along with the werehamster story and "I Married El Chupacabra" - both dares from KB chat.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I hope that, one day, some salt-encrusted mariner who's grandkids just taught him how to use the wireless sits down and, in a misguided attempt to find a companion, googles "Fish Wife."
> 
> And this is the thread he finds.
> 
> Hello, Old Man of the Sea! We love you! This is in good fun.


Yes! Another sale!


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Seriously, who's up for the challenge? I have the rest of the week free. I'm going to be writing something. And 4k words is a day or two for me.

How many would we need for an anthology?


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Yes! Another sale!


We should cross post to the marketing threads.

"Guys, GUYS. No, seriously, guys. We have an idea. So you have this Englishman, right? No, it just starts with an Englishman. And a fish. You have to have the fish. Step 2...we're figuring that part out. But anyway, it ends with an old seaman buying your book. No, seaMAN. Jeez."


----------



## AKLoggie (Aug 13, 2011)

If I could, I would upvote this thread.

++, +1, Like.


----------



## lazyjayn (May 18, 2011)

You guys talk about the englishman and the fish, and I'm here, in the middle of the hostel common room, cackling like a (slightly) crazy(-er) madwoman. Because all I can see in my little Jenny brain is the man/fish version of the monkey and the frog.

And I'd like to un-thank Konrath, etc for that one.


----------



## Jackie Barbosa (Mar 23, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I have no idea what sells better. Best to ask the experts
> 
> There is a lot of really good erotica in short form. Jackie Barbosa (spelling?) has a good Regency erotica novella out. It has a funny scene with a
> 
> ...


OMG, I'm so glad I popped into this thread or I'd never have known I was mentioned in it . Thank you for recommending CARNALLY EVER AFTER. I'm really flattered!

As it happens, I've gotten the rights back to that story and, although it is still available from the original publisher, the rights are supposed to officially revert on September 1. Shortly thereafter, I'll be re-releasing it at a lower price and also will be including a bonus epilogue and the first three chapters of my October/November release, THE LESSON PLAN.

So, yanno, if you want to read it, maybe hold off on buying it a couple of week.


----------



## Jackie Barbosa (Mar 23, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Thank goodness it was Regency. I really hope that was an English cucumber, and not an American one.


I do not believe I ever specified the cucumber's genus .


----------



## AKLoggie (Aug 13, 2011)

lazyjayn said:


> You guys talk about the englishman and the fish, and I'm here, in the middle of the hostel common room, cackling like a (slightly) crazy(-er) madwoman. Because all I can see in my little Jenny brain is the man/fish version of the monkey and the frog.
> 
> And I'd like to un-thank Konrath, etc for that one.


argh, brain bleach, brain bleach. You can't unring that bell 



Jackie Barbosa said:


> OMG, I'm so glad I popped into this thread or I'd never have known I was mentioned in it . Thank you for recommending CARNALLY EVER AFTER. I'm really flattered!
> 
> As it happens, I've gotten the rights back to that story and, although it is still available from the original publisher, the rights are supposed to officially revert on September 1. Shortly thereafter, I'll be re-releasing it at a lower price and also will be including a bonus epilogue and the first three chapters of my October/November release, THE LESSON PLAN.
> 
> So, yanno, if you want to read it, maybe hold off on buying it a couple of week.


Ohhh, excellent news!


----------



## John Waylon (Jul 10, 2011)

Cristian,

I write mostly in the 4k to 5k range, and sell very well at $3.99 one another pen name. Plotwise, they vary. I write "Men's Erotica" <because no site has a porn category>.

Write what you want to read.

As for why so many refer to it as "badly written porn"....well that's their hangup. It just means they don't like it, therefore it is badly written. People look down their noses at romance novels, at science fiction, at anything that is considered genre. Since I've written eroti...oops, badly written porn AND Sword & Sorcery Fantasy for so many decades, I've developed a thick skin to those comments.

Just shrug it off.


----------



## Doug DePew (Mar 26, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> *Levels of Erotica: A Smart-Aleck Top 5 List:*


That was funny!


----------



## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

Okay, I must go back and read this whole thread. Right now I can't think beyond mermaids. More specifically Mermaid menage. My muse has a one track mind <g>


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> Okay, I must go back and read this whole thread. Right now I can't think beyond mermaids. More specifically Mermaid menage. My muse has a one track mind <g>


Now there's a slippery plot.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

John Waylon said:


> It just means they don't like it, therefore it is badly written.


 

No. Badly written anything is badly written anything.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

tawnytaylor said:


> I agree! It isn't a question of should; it's a MUST. Read, read, read. Read what's selling well. Read what's receiving great reviews.


You know, I meant to respond to this initially, and then I got side tracked with making goofy jokes. Sorry Tawny!

Anyway. Along the lines of what's been said already, by Tawny, Anne, Krista, and others: just, you know, respect the reader. And respect the genre. I kind of think that erotica, like comedy, is actually a much more difficult form of storytelling, because you are trying to elicit a very specific response. Like, a drama can elicit a range of emotion and be called a success; if a comedy elicits anything other than a laugh, it's a dud. Ditto erotica - if it fails to engage and arouse, dud. Doesn't matter if you did ok on some other aspect.

Seems less forgiving. So approaching it with an attitude* of whatever, I'll just throw some stuff out there, make some money, seems misguided, at best, and kinda disrespectful, at worst. Read. Genuinely try to do the best job you can. Otherwise readers will be pissed, you wont even be writing something you like, and then what's the point?

*I am speaking generally, not about the OP.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> You know, I meant to respond to this initially, and then I got side tracked with making goofy jokes. Sorry Tawny!
> 
> Anyway. Along the lines of what's been said already, by Tawny, Anne, Krista, and others: just, you know, respect the reader. And respect the genre. I kind of think that erotica, like comedy, is actually a much more difficult form of storytelling, because you are trying to elicit a very specific response. Like, a drama can elicit a range of emotion and be called a success; if a comedy elicits anything other than a laugh, it's a dud. Ditto erotica - if it fails to engage and arouse, dud. Doesn't matter if you did ok on some other aspect.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Doug DePew said:


> That was funny!


When the topic is something I know a bit about, I try to contribute.

Failing that, I try to amuse...


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Now there's a slippery plot.


"How do we, uh...I mean, it's not a bifurcated tail, so..."
"Have you never...?"
"Of course I have! Just not with a mermaid."
"Well, you go wait in the bathroom for a minute..."
"Yeah?"
"While I lay my eggs over here, and then you come in, and -- where are you going?"

<shamelessly stolen from Futurama>

Back to goofy joke time!


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> "How do we, uh...I mean, it's not a bifurcated tail, so..."
> "Have you never...?"
> "Of course I have! Just not with a mermaid."
> "Well, you go wait in the bathroom for a minute..."
> ...


I assume mermaids have a cloaca, or a central vent similar to an amphibian or a bird.


----------



## jackKate (Aug 7, 2011)

...what on earth....

I went to bed and this was a 3 page thread... now it's a monster!  How on earth did it grow so fast?


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I assume mermaids have a cloaca, or a central vent similar to an amphibian or a bird.


So we are still going by the backdoor = erotica definition?

ALSO: I never realized how dirty the word "cloaca" is. Seriously, just say it a few times. Clooo-aca!

Totally dirty.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> So we are still going by the backdoor = erotica definition?
> 
> ALSO: I never realized how dirty the word "cloaca" is. Seriously, just say it a few times. Clooo-aca!
> 
> Totally dirty.


Quite literally dirty, I should think. Better write in some wet naps.


----------



## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Now there's a slippery plot.


Good erotica should always be slippery, no? 

One thing I've gotta say, and maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's just about respecting the readers (whom of course we much respect *suck suck*). You have to respect the story. You have to have a story. I tried to avoid reading erotica when I'm writing it. My writer self was nurtured on so many different genres and I don't want to lose that depth just because I'm writing about sex. The sex happens for a reason, just like everything else in the story.

Now, back to mermaid sex. Do you think the merman's thing would be like a birds? Kinda...tucked in? And what about Mermaid menage dubious-con? Or BDSM? Actually, I think someone's done that. Must check.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> Actually, I think someone's done that. Must check.


I think the wet-napped cloaca sub genre might be unclaimed.

For now.

ETA: I don't even mean to make goofy jokes, anymore, honest. It just kinda keeps happening. Possibly I need to take a break. But I don't want to discourage actually fun mermaid sex with my goofy jokes! Possibly wet-napped cloaca was a turn off. I mean. Hopefully. Don't let me ruin your mojo!


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## LucyRodgersEro (Jul 15, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> Now, back to mermaid sex. Do you think the merman's thing would be like a birds? Kinda...tucked in? And what about Mermaid menage dubious-con? Or BDSM? Actually, I think someone's done that. Must check.


Kitty Thomas just released a mermaid story this week (Awakening). It has a master/slave dynamic and BDSM elements, though it's maybe slightly tamer on the erotic scale than her other books. I loved it, though, and I think her take on mermaid sex/culture is pretty interesting and unique.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I think the wet-napped cloaca sub genre might be unclaimed.
> 
> For now.


*snicker*

I got first dibs! Now who wants to read about copulating fish?


----------



## LucyRodgersEro (Jul 15, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> *snicker*
> 
> I got first dibs! Now who wants to read about copulating fish?


But fish don't copulate, do they? They spawn...


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

LucyRodgersEro said:


> Kitty Thomas just released a mermaid story this week (Awakening). It has a master/slave dynamic and BDSM elements, though it's maybe slightly tamer on the erotic scale than her other books. I loved it, though, and I think her take on mermaid sex/culture is pretty interesting and unique.


Ah! That's it! Yes, I love Kitty Thomas. My fav is Tender Mercies and Comfort food. Must pick up the mermaid one. Thanks for reminding me who the author is!


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

LucyRodgersEro said:


> But fish don't copulate, do they? They spawn...


Very true. Must do some fish research. What about dolphins? They...mate differently, don't they?

Either way, I'm not sure I could manage a menage with mermaids. Not enough holes. Just the mouth and cloaca.


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## LucyRodgersEro (Jul 15, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> What about dolphins? They...mate differently, don't they?


Oh, dolphins are mammals and they most certainly copulate. A LOT apparently. And just for fun. So if your mermaids are half dolphin, they can have lots and lots of sex.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

LucyRodgersEro said:


> Oh, dolphins are mammals and they most certainly copulate. A LOT apparently. And just for fun. So if your mermaids are half dolphin, they can have lots and lots of sex.


Yey! Lots and lots of sex sounds good! Now I just have to figure out underwater bondage....


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## jackKate (Aug 7, 2011)

LucyRodgersEro said:


> But fish don't copulate, do they? They spawn...


Good news, there's a genre of fish known as "livebearers" which do something a bit closer to coupulating. Famous ones are "guppies", those fellows will be trying to coupulate with anything right up to their dying moments


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## AKLoggie (Aug 13, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> Very true. Must do some fish research. What about dolphins? They...mate differently, don't they?
> 
> Either way, I'm not sure I could manage a menage with mermaids. Not enough holes. Just the mouth and cloaca.


I know that male dolphins have prehensile penises.

Also, they well, uhm, they are also


Spoiler



rapists.


 So dubious-con is a go!


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## MichaelEgon (Jul 25, 2011)

Lumberjacks, mermaids, and mounties.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

I can't _believe_ no one has mentioned blowholes.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

AKLoggie said:


> I know that male dolphins have prehensile penises.
> 
> Also, they well, uhm, they are also
> 
> ...


My muse is loving you right now. I'll have to gag him for a bit...maybe if I jot down some notes he'll be happy! lol! I'm supposed to be writing a synopsis right now, but this thread is just full of inspiration!

Never thought fish would be inspiring!



jackKate said:


> Good news, there's a genre of fish known as "livebearers" which do something a bit closer to coupulating. Famous ones are "guppies", those fellows will be trying to coupulate with anything right up to their dying moments


OMG! That just works on so many levels! Tragic erotic romance. So many possibilities!


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

LucyRodgersEro said:


> Oh, dolphins are mammals and they most certainly copulate. A LOT apparently. And just for fun. So if your mermaids are half dolphin, they can have lots and lots of sex.


Did you know that dolphins actually masturbate? So do parrots if you were wondering. I found that out when researching which animals masturbate. What I learned was that any animal that is smart enough to figure out how to do it, does it.

And here I thought that little piece of research would never come up in casual conversation.


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## LucyRodgersEro (Jul 15, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> OMG! That just works on so many levels! Tragic erotic romance. So many possibilities!


Well, I think technically you can't call it a romance if everyone dies at the end--unless, of course, they are UNdead.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Did you know that dolphins actually masturbate? I found that out when researching which animals masturbate. So do parrots if you were wondering.
> 
> And here I thought that little piece of research would never come up in casual conversation.


No more aimlessly trying to find info on the net! This place has plenty!

Strangely enough, I'm trying to figure out how a dolphin would masturbate...I guess they use their mouths? I wonder if a dolphin man would be as flexible.

This is going to sound very ignorant, but seriously, I thought animals only did it to reproduce. It sounds like they might get more pleasure from the act than I thought.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> No more aimlessly trying to find info on the net! This place has plenty!
> 
> Strangely enough, I'm trying to figure out how a dolphin would masturbate...I guess they use their mouths? I wonder if a dolphin man would be as flexible.
> 
> This is going to sound very ignorant, but seriously, I thought animals only did it to reproduce. It sounds like they might get more pleasure from the act than I thought.


I think it's bonobos who fondle as a form of greeting, and some neutered male cats will rape any unattended stuffed toy, so I'm thinking lots of animals do it for fun, as well.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

LucyRodgersEro said:


> Well, I think technically you can't call it a romance if everyone dies at the end--unless, of course, they are UNdead.


That's just not true. What about Romeo and Juliette? Or Othello (okay, not everyone dies, but still). Now a day, you'd have to call it Gothic romance I think. And that just gives the story more layers! <g> This would have to be a self-pub I think. My publishers would kill me if I tried to pitch a menage, bdsm, tragic mermaid story! Tags on that would be messed up!


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> That's just not true. What about Romeo and Juliette? Or Othello (okay, not everyone dies, but still). Now a day, you'd have to call it Gothic romance I think. And that just gives the story more layers! <g> This would have to be a self-pub I think. My publishers would kill me if I tried to pitch a menage, bdsm, tragic mermaid story! Tags on that would be messed up!


Romeo and Juliet wasn't a romance, or a tragedy - it was a comedy. If the idiots has just waited a week, Romeo would have been on to another girl, and everything would have blown over.


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## jackKate (Aug 7, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Did you know that dolphins actually masturbate? So do parrots if you were wondering.


As do (I believe), a lot of other animals.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> This is going to sound very ignorant, but seriously, I thought animals only did it to reproduce. It sounds like they might get more pleasure from the act than I thought.


Well, if you didn't know, monkeys masturbate. The fact that people don't know that is why I'm releasing my upcoming book 'Every Monkey Masturbates.' In fact, you should see the outtakes from 'Rise of the Planet of the Apes'. Those CGI monkeys can really go to town.

But yeah, any animal with a brain large enough to figure out how to do it, does it.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Romeo and Juliet wasn't a romance, or a tragedy - it was a comedy. If the idiots has just waited a week, Romeo would have been on to another girl, and everything would have blown over.


Hmm...I suppose that's true...to a degree. But I still think it's tragically romantic. And I'm still waiting for the moment I can blow HEA and HFN to smithereens. But I'm bidding my time. If I can pull off a fish romance, I can do anything


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Romeo and Juliet wasn't a romance, or a tragedy - it was a comedy. If the idiots has just waited a week, Romeo would have been on to another girl, and everything would have blown over.


That is exactly what I always say.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Well, you know monkeys masturbate. You should see the outtakes from 'Rise of the Planet of the Apes'. Those CGI monkeys can really go to town.
> 
> But yeah, any animal with a brain large enough to figure out how to do it, does it.


Parrots brains aren't that big. So I'm guessing anything bigger than that?

I'm dying to see Rise of the Planet of the Apes! Have you seen it, or just the outtakes? James Franco seems like his twisted self in the previews.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> Parrots brains aren't that big. So I'm guessing anything bigger than that?
> 
> I'm dying to see Rise of the Planet of the Apes! Have you seen it, or just the outtakes? James Franco seems like his twisted self in the previews.


I haven't seen it yet. But I'm really looking forward to it. I have heard 4 people say that it was the best movie of the year.

I was supposed to see it two weekends ago but had to baby sit drunk friends instead.


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## Jackie Barbosa (Mar 23, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Romeo and Juliet wasn't a romance, or a tragedy - it was a comedy. If the idiots has just waited a week, Romeo would have been on to another girl, and everything would have blown over.





anne_holly said:


> Romeo and Juliet wasn't a romance, or a tragedy - it was a comedy. If the idiots has just waited a week, Romeo would have been on to another girl, and everything would have blown over.


LOL, so true!

That said, from a point of view of modern genre conventions, _Romeo and Juliet_ isn't a romance. If you're going to call it a romance these days (whether erotic or "steamy" or sweet or inspirational), it had been have a "Happily Ever After" (or at least a "Happy for Now") ending or readers are gonna scream. *I* will scream, lol. I read romance for the happy endings. This means any book that ends unhappily isn't a romance, even if it has a romantic element. _Love Story_ is not a romance. _The Time Traveler's Wife_ is not a romance. And so on...

Now, there ARE Shakespearean romances, but we usually call them comedies--_Midsummer Night's Dream_, _As You Like It_, _The Taming of the Shrew_, etc.

Now, if you want to write an erotic story that ends in everyone dying, that's perfectly okay. But please, I beg you on behalf of romance readers everywhere, call it erotica, not erotic romance, so we won't buy it EXPECTING a happy ending.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

I would like to thank all of you ladies... and Craig for all of the help. Not only was this thread hilarious, it was extremely helpful. 

My goal when creating this thread was to figure out how to churn out sex stories for the purpose of generating sales. You guys cleared me up on that though. Now instead, I will be writing a novelette that happens to have a lot of sex in it. I won't expect it to sell very many. I won't expect it to be a respected or quoted piece of work. But the readers will get their jollies off if they choose to read it.

Perhaps the characters will be overly developed, but that is my style. And just like all of my other books (minus Fixing Cupid) it will be about loneliness and isolation. In fact, the themes of the story will very closely mirror the themes from Samurai Zombie Hunter. If that means that I won't get a lot of sales, so be it.

However, I do have a great title, and I have already plotted out the entire story. I based the characters on 3 of the most interesting sex workers I have ever met, and I will focus on my inspirations' unspoken need for connection and their heartbreak for the loss of their own innocents. All I have left to do now is come up with a pen name.

I will start writing it tomorrow. Thanks again everyone.


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## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

Jackie Barbosa said:


> LOL, so true!
> 
> That said, from a point of view of modern genre conventions, _Romeo and Juliet_ isn't a romance. If you're going to call it a romance these days (whether erotic or "steamy" or sweet or inspirational), it had been have a "Happily Ever After" (or at least a "Happy for Now") ending or readers are gonna scream. *I* will scream, lol. I read romance for the happy endings. This means any book that ends unhappily isn't a romance, even if it has a romantic element. _Love Story_ is not a romance. _The Time Traveler's Wife_ is not a romance. And so on...
> 
> ...


So far I've stuck to conventions (worked for my stories) But I'm wondering...would a label of tragic be enough to let people know not to expect a HEA? Or even Gothic. IDK, but when I buy those, I'm kinda expecting a lot of people to die! I read one romance (Black Rainbow or something along those line...have to find the book) and it was very dark and erotic, but the heroine wanted the hero to die near the end (and so did I!). I'd still consider it romance, but not traditional. Any thoughts?


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

tawnytaylor said:


> I hope you're being sarcastic, AJ because I wouldn't be so hasty, to believe someone's opinion when they haven't read the book.
> 
> It's very hard to discern the difference between erotica and erotic romance...even after reading the whole book. The line is very blurry.


I absolutely agree with you, Tawny.

Also - let's say for the sake of argument that the one book is contemporary romance. That hardly means that all of your work falls under the same umbrella.

And, finally, I'm nitpicking, but words are important. Believe my opinion? That implies that I'm being dishonest, which was not my intention. Now, whether or not you _accept_ my opinion is a different matter, and I agree that it's hard to call a genre based upon a couple of sentences of description. I do, however, stand by statement that one of the dividing lines between romance and erotica is whether the focus and driving force is the sex or the relationship.


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

Oh. 

I heart this thread SO BIG!!!

(although I blame it for my mermaid dream last night)

As for stories, I'm drawing a blank: considering a cloaca would be both regular and, um, back door... my college-biology-major-brain is going into conniptions. Most mermaid romances I've read fade to black on the sexytimes. 

And yes, parrots do masturbate. I have two conures and I regularly take out their sleeping huts during mating season (spring/summer) because they'll rub and make funny noises on the furry surface. You need to curtail it so the females won't spontaneously lay eggs and run the risk of becoming eggbound (not as fun as it sounds).


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Just got caught up with this thread - full of awesome 

LE:  Our quaker gets jiggy with her rope perch.  Totally agree about the egg-laying being a potential cause for concern.  We went through that with Ruby, but thankfully there's been no more egg laying for a while :whew:


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## AKLoggie (Aug 13, 2011)

Ladyeclectic said:


> Oh.
> 
> I heart this thread SO BIG!!!
> 
> ...


I think my mermaids are not going to have a cloaca. The only time I've read about a cloaca[*], it was of unspeakable filthiness. That's all I can think about when people say cloaca. Scat is def not my thing.

[*] Steel Beach, by John Varley. Love that book


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## Jackie Barbosa (Mar 23, 2011)

BiancaSommerland said:


> So far I've stuck to conventions (worked for my stories) But I'm wondering...would a label of tragic be enough to let people know not to expect a HEA? Or even Gothic. IDK, but when I buy those, I'm kinda expecting a lot of people to die! I read one romance (Black Rainbow or something along those line...have to find the book) and it was very dark and erotic, but the heroine wanted the hero to die near the end (and so did I!). I'd still consider it romance, but not traditional. Any thoughts?


I think I'd call it a romantic or erotic tragedy, but I wouldn't call it a "tragic romance," at least not when it came to labeling its genre.

For me, the dividing line between what we call "romance" and anything else is that it always has a happy ending. If it ends badly for one or more of the protagonists, it can have romantic elements, but it's doesn't belong in the romance genre per se.


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

Arkali said:


> LE: Our quaker gets jiggy with her rope perch. Totally agree about the egg-laying being a potential cause for concern. We went through that with Ruby, but thankfully there's been no more egg laying for a while :whew:


Our little Green-cheek is very enamored with her fuzzy sleeping hut, loves rubbing herself against it. If we let her in our Sun's cage she goes straight for that hut (our Sun conure is still too young). It amused me at first but the fear of egg-binding has me cautious these days.

As for cloaca: wow, I can't think of any way that can be sexy (and I've been trying!): stints as a herpetologist and ornithology (owls) set my mind against that pairing. Hats off to you creative enough to think of something!!


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

With regards to my earlier comments, it is now official....I do write porn. Pure sex and word porn. It seems my membership in the Romance Writers of America is now no more than a pipe dream. *sigh*

http://novellareviews.blogspot.com/2011/08/photoshoot-girls.html

Seriously, though, thank you, Betty for the review! 

Angelina


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## Nomadwoman (Aug 25, 2011)

Hey Christian
On a serious note thanks for starting this. My mother told me yesterday that there's a lot of sex in my book and I should tag it in erotica. *Gets up off floor sides in agony* I thought there was hardly any  - sex is just part of life. Now Im confused where to position a novel with a lot of sex.

When I look at the writers here, the cover seems to play an enormous role. CAnt see my book competing with the cover it has. Maybe I should just return to the writing board.

Konrath just recently blog posted about the hate mail he gets for writing sex into his detective novels and questioned America's puritanism. Hence even more confusing. WHO should I but in the name of some research I wonder...


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> I'm thinking about trying my hand at erotica and I'm trying to figure out what classifies a book as erotica. 2 of my books already have a number of sex scenes in it. And since one of my books is about a talking penis, I do use various names for body parts in it. So where is the line between erotica and a novel (or short story) with multiple sex scenes?


How on earth did we make it to page _seven_ with no one addressing the idea of a _*talking penis* erotica story_?!?! 

Granted, I'm not all that knowledgeable in the kinkier niche markets, but is there _any _niche market where a talking penis is considered a turn-on?  I'm not sure which genre that belongs in, but I'm pretty sure it would have the word "comedy" in it. I'm not saying it's a bad concept...just not an erotic one.


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

Nomadwoman said:


> On a serious note thanks for starting this. My mother told me yesterday that there's a lot of sex in my book and I should tag it in erotica. *Gets up off floor sides in agony* I thought there was hardly any - sex is just part of life. Now Im confused where to position a novel with a lot of sex.
> 
> When I look at the writers here, the cover seems to play an enormous role. CAnt see my book competing with the cover it has. Maybe I should just return to the writing board.


First...DON'T listen to your mom for marketing advice, unless she's a marketing guru with extensive knowledge of the romance and/or erotica markets. And even then...  she's your mom. LOL

Second, I like your cover. In thumbnail, it says mainstream romance. So if that's what you're going for, you've succeeded. When you see it on Amazon in full size, however, the inset pictures make it look like a travel guide. You'd be better off without those, I think. You can't see them in thumbnail, anyway. If you get rid of those, you might be able to make the cover text bigger, and more readable. Other than that, I like it. It doesn't "pop", but it's nice.


----------



## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Juliette Dupree said:


> How on earth did we make it to page _seven_ with no one addressing the idea of a _*talking penis* erotica story_?!?!
> 
> Granted, I'm not all that knowledgeable in the kinkier niche markets, but is there _any _niche market where a talking penis is considered a turn-on?  I'm not sure which genre that belongs in, but I'm pretty sure it would have the word "comedy" in it. I'm not saying it's a bad concept...just not an erotic one.


Haha! Good luck with making that one. The best I could do was Lad Lit (the male equivalent to chick lit). And yes, it is heavy on the comedy.

But hey, I'm pretty proud that in spite of the fact that I made the talking penis a real dick, I was able to create a few very arousing scenes.


----------



## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

AJHamilton said:


> With regards to my earlier comments, it is now official....I do write porn. Pure sex and word porn. It seems my membership in the Romance Writers of America is now no more than a pipe dream. *sigh*
> 
> http://novellareviews.blogspot.com/2011/08/photoshoot-girls.html
> 
> ...


'grats on the four-lip review


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

If your penis is at the stage where it's talking to you... Well, I don't even think penicillin can help you at that point.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> If your penis is at the stage where it's talking to you... Well, I don't even think penicillin can help you at that point.


As long as it's not warning anyone else, amiright?


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> As long as it's not warning anyone else, amiright?


The tiny ballgag might clue them in...


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

By the way, I was away from the internet most of the day, working on my new story (due tomorrow, eek!), but I took a short break and checked my sales.

My erotica stories have flown off the e-shelves in the past 24 hours (well, for me, anyways). I can only assume this thread had something to do with that... If so, BEST. THREAD. EVER.

Carry on, folks.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> By the way, I was away from the internet most of the day, working on my new story (due tomorrow, eek!), but I took a short break and checked my sales.
> 
> My erotica stories have flown off the e-shelves in the past 24 hours (well, for me, anyways). I can only assume this thread had something to do with that... If so, BEST. THREAD. EVER.
> 
> Carry on, folks.


Yay!


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Yay!


It must have been that crusty old mariner.


----------



## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Speaking of which, it seems my newest one just went live... 

Oh crap. More release-related promo. Sigh.


----------



## AKLoggie (Aug 13, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> It must have been that crusty old mariner.


well, in erotica, you know you can always count on the seamen.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Speaking of which, it seems my newest one just went live...
> 
> Oh crap. More release-related promo. Sigh.


No, no, it's definitely all the seamen. All the salty, old seamen.


----------



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

AKLoggie said:


> well, in erotica, you know you can always count on the seamen.


Punch buggy entendre!


----------



## AKLoggie (Aug 13, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Punch buggy entendre!


Thank you, we'll be here all week!


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

AKLoggie said:


> well, in erotica, you know you can always count on the seamen.


Let's not forget the lesbian seamen!

 Wait a minute....


----------



## BiancaSommerland (Mar 8, 2011)

Ladyeclectic said:


> Let's not forget the lesbian seamen!
> 
> Wait a minute....


LOL! I came back to see how the thread was going. You guys are fun to hang around. 

I got my nature education last night...now tell me all about lesbian seaman!


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

3,088 words down, about 5,000 left to go. I'll get an earlier start on it tomorrow. This morning I started at 11am.


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

Arkali said:


> 'grats on the four-lip review


Thank you.


----------



## Inara Stone (Aug 31, 2011)

I've read so many different types of stories that feature sex, it's hard for me to categorize what I write. The three stories I've written so far are rather direct. I worked hard to write well, but I didn't focus on plot. The stories are about the characters and their sexual interaction. I could not honestly say whether this makes them erotica or porn.

Outside of categorization, I think a lot about cover images. For my two Inara Stone stories, I used the same woman on both covers. The stories are written from a female perspective, though, so I recently changed the covers to feature men. I don't know if this change makes much difference. I also wonder about showing faces or not. Do "headless" images let readers imagine themselves in the story better, or does a pretty face attract potential buyers? I've gone for the headless look so far. 

Fish slaps, masturbating parrots, a talking penis ... I'm still wiping the tears from my eyes!


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Inara Stone said:


> I've read so many different types of stories that feature sex, it's hard for me to categorize what I write. The three stories I've written so far are rather direct. I worked hard to write well, but I didn't focus on plot. The stories are about the characters and their sexual interaction. I could not honestly say whether this makes them erotica or porn.
> 
> Outside of categorization, I think a lot about cover images. For my two Inara Stone stories, I used the same woman on both covers. The stories are written from a female perspective, though, so I recently changed the covers to feature men. I don't know if this change makes much difference. I also wonder about showing faces or not. Do "headless" images let readers imagine themselves in the story better, or does a pretty face attract potential buyers? I've gone for the headless look so far.
> 
> Fish slaps, masturbating parrots, a talking penis ... I'm still wiping the tears from my eyes!


It actually makes a lot of sense to me to put males on the cover of a female-POV book. I write a lot of scopophilia scenes, so, to me, it wouldn't make sense to place the POV-character on the cover - similarly, it makes sense to put whatever parts of the body the POV-character likes best (i.e. abs, chesticles, whatever). Might tend towards the fetishism of pieces, but works with the story, and sets the right tone.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> It actually makes a lot of sense to me to put males on the cover of a female-POV book. I write a lot of scopophilia scenes, so, to me, it wouldn't make sense to place the POV-character on the cover - similarly, it makes sense to put whatever parts of the body the POV-character likes best (i.e. abs, chesticles, whatever). Might tend towards the fetishism of pieces, but works with the story, and sets the right tone.


ETA: I definitely just went and looked up scopophilia. I expected it to be way, way, waaaaay dirtier. Like, at all dirty. It's just really close to scat, phonetically. MOVING ON:

Ok. Ready for the geekout? The nerdathon? A few times, when I've been paying attention and it's been convenient, I've gone ahead and c/p'd a particularly detailed or helpful KB post (if not bookmarked a thread).

One of these was on these sorts of issues, from "Juliet Dupree."

Caveat: I know nothing. I can vouch for nothing. I do not know Juliet. (Um, what up, person I don't know and am quoting! Hi!) I c/p'd because this made sense to me. I would be totally interested in hearing about other people's takes if they differ. Entire post, quoted below (I was not smart enough to save the URL, but I think the thread was called "the difference between erotica and erotic romance" or something like that, and it was sometime between May '11 and now; emphasis is mine):



> This is really long, but I think writers of erotica might find it helpful, if they don't already know this stuff. So be patient with me!
> 
> I've noticed something among indie erotica writers. Some of them don't do very much research before writing and/or marketing their book. They list it as a genre that it really doesn't fall in. I'm not calling anyone out here, just pointing out some common mistakes that many (though not all) erotica/ER writers are making.
> 
> ...


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Genevieveaclark,
You rock! And so do you Juliet Dupree, the person that your fellow rocker quoted. My God, this is just the thread that keeps on giving!

Got a couple of questions though, who are these women who are buying m/m porn? Male authors really have no advantage in writing for anyone, because men, apparent, can't read... I guess. 

But as I think about it, I do have a female friend who at age 40 has become obsessed with the members of the gay partnership on Glee. So much so that she came up with a story involving yours truly with one of the characters. It was a weird experience having her tell me it... just weird.

But in her story there was never any sex mentioned. It was all about the lead up. It was all story. I don't even think the two people in her story consummated their relationship. But I thought her obsession was some strange fluke. So, other than her, who are these women?

And a practical question, how many sex scenes do you all put per 2k words (to pick a random number) in your stories?


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Got a couple of questions though, who are these women who are buying m/m porn?


Women who are into men. Straight women and bi women. In much the same way that men are into f/f.

You know how when a woman asks men why they're into two women getting it on, and men look at her like she's a total moron, and eventually stammer, "because it's..._more_. Of the good stuff. It's just more!"

Like that, so I've been told.

Incidentally...a lot of straight women watched Queer as Folk, and it wasn't for the storyline. Just like some dudes tried to watch the L Word (I don't know of any who succeeded. That was honestly the worst show...)


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Women who are into men. Straight women and bi women. In much the same way that men are into f/f.
> 
> You know how when a woman asks men why they're into two women getting it on, and men look at her like she's a total moron, and eventually stammer, "because it's..._more_. Of the good stuff. It's just more!"
> 
> Like that, so I've been told.


Exactly! I've tried to explain it to friends and they do NOT get it. They seem squicked by the entrance point, forgetting that they themselves love when their girlfriends allow.... *blush* Erm, nevermind, family friendly board and all that.



> Incidentally...a lot of straight women watched Queer as Folk, and it wasn't for the storyline.


*waves hand* Me, me!! Btw, just for clarification: unashamed straight girl here.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

Ladyeclectic said:


> *waves hand* Me, me!! Btw, just for clarification: unashamed straight girl here.


Wait, what shame? Where is it? In this thread?


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

I've been avoiding this thread..mostly to control the fact that I'm a Post-a-holic. But what the heck, I'm diving in now. I would self-categorize my work as being very much porn. It's short, focused, and to the point.

But, I've received feedback from readers (and one reviewer) that they love how I get inside of my characters heads. For awhile it drove me a little crazy. _What were they reading, that I wasn't?_

After awhile, I realized that I have a 'cheat' that I use to do this. Very simply, I phrase the characters inner-thoughts as questions. Which I then italicize. This creates the illusion of self-conflict:

For Example:

_Will she leave me if she finds out the truth?_ or _Is this what I really wanted all along?_

I know it's not Mailer or Bronte, but it seems to work. There's probably some cardinal rule-of-grammar I'm breaking by doing this. Yet my shortest story is rampant with this convention, and it makes up for the majority of my sales so far. I do think there's something to adding a little 'hesitance' or 'reluctance' to the story. Rather than have people jump into to bed for a zipless romp, make your main character seem a little unsure. Maybe even a little neurotic or nervous about the whole thing. It adds depth, or at least it seemed to in my case.


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Wait, what shame? Where is it? In this thread?


HA!!! Too true!!


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## Inara Stone (Aug 31, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Got a couple of questions though, who are these women who are buying m/m porn?


I've always had a tender spot in my heart for gay men and male couples, and I buy m/m stories. (Why do I crave chocolate every time I type that?) I'm straight. I have a feeling this is much more common than you think, Cristian.


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## Inara Stone (Aug 31, 2011)

Vicky Foxx said:


> Rather than have people jump into to bed for a zipless romp, make your main character seem a little unsure. Maybe even a little neurotic or nervous about the whole thing. It adds depth, or at least it seemed to in my case.


Vicky, I agree. It definitely works when I'm reading a story. I like to know the main characters have feelings about what they're doing physically, even if they are not in love.


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

Inara Stone said:


> I've always had a tender spot in my heart for gay men and male couples, and I buy m/m stories. (Why do I crave chocolate every time I type that?) I'm straight. I have a feeling this is much more common than you think, Cristian.


I feel the same way.  Many of my friends are gay and when Prop 8 was going through California here I stood with them. It bugs me we still don't have equal rights for them. Of course, given that I write (and read) m/m erotica, I also find them hot.


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

Vicky Foxx said:


> But, I've received feedback from readers (and one reviewer) that they love how I get inside of my characters heads. For awhile it drove me a little crazy. _What were they reading, that I wasn't?_
> 
> After awhile, I realized that I have a 'cheat' that I use to do this. Very simply, I phrase the characters inner-thoughts as questions. Which I then italicize. This creates the illusion of self-conflict:
> 
> ...


Honestly this is how I've always seen it in regular novels. I tend to let actions and dialogue speak more than thoughts, but I definitely appreciate when it's done well. If your readers love it then you're obviously doing something very right! *thumbs up*


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Inara Stone said:


> I've always had a tender spot in my heart for gay men and male couples, and I buy m/m stories. (Why do I crave chocolate every time I type that?) I'm straight. I have a feeling this is much more common than you think, Cristian.


Well, since I didn't think it happened at all, then it absolutely happens more than I thought. Who knew? And I suppose that men in the stories are basically straight men who are more in touch with their feelings?


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Well, since I didn't think it happened at all, then it absolutely happens more than I thought. Who knew? And I suppose that men in the stories are basically straight men who are more in touch with their feelings?


Not.....quite. I'm not a big fan of


Spoiler



chicks with dicks


 and prefer masculine men together. Obviously depends on the writer, but I definitely don't do "feelings" with my characters (unless the story calls for it).


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Ladyeclectic said:


> Not.....quite. I'm not a big fan of
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I actually find that kind of funny to read, because as a masculine man, I write about masculine men and they are nothing but feelings... you know, just like the way men are in real life.

Come on now, just because men can't express their feelings or choose not to doesn't mean that they aren't awash with them. And think about how many more feelings you develop when you think that you can't express said feelings.

I dare say that women just don't understand how tough it is to be a man.


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> I actually find that kind of funny to read, because as a masculine man, I write about masculine men and they are nothing but feelings... you know, just like the way men are in real life.
> 
> Come on now, just because men can't express their feelings or choose not to doesn't mean that they aren't awash with them. And think about how many more feelings you develop when you think that you can't express said feelings.
> 
> I dare say that women, just don't understand how tough it is to be a man.


Oh, I'm not saying they're not in touch with their feelings. Real men definitely are, as are my characters, but men in general have a tough time expressing them. One of my major turnoffs in some m/m stories (short or otherwise) is when they get too sappy or lovey-dovey and basically become, yes, women in men's bodies. I'm on a few gay message boards and that seems to be a pet peeve for many: it isn't the show of emotions, just the excessiveness that undermines the fact that these guys are, hey, men.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Ladyeclectic said:


> Oh, I'm not saying they're not in touch with their feelings. Real men definitely are, as are my characters, but men in general have a tough time expressing them. One of my major turnoffs in some m/m stories (short or otherwise) is when they get too sappy or lovey-dovey and basically become, yes, women in men's bodies. I'm on a few gay message boards and that seems to be a pet peeve for many: it isn't the show of emotions, just the excessiveness that undermines the fact that these guys are, hey, men.


Hmmm, that's interesting. Let me ask you this then, what if the male character is outwardly inexpressive, but the author let's you into his internal life and the internals are expressive? Where does that fall in the like/dislike categories?


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Hmmm, that's interesting. Let me ask you this then, what if the male character is outwardly inexpressive, but the author let's you into his internal life and the internals are expressive? Where does that fall in the like/dislike categories?


*shrug* Depends on the story or the characters. I'm a fan of alpha males which, obviously, skews my perceptions and tastes a bit but yes if there's an external stoicism and internal struggles with emotions, I'll probably enjoy it.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Ladyeclectic said:


> *shrug* Depends on the story or the characters. I'm a fan of alpha males which, obviously, skews my perceptions and tastes a bit but yes if there's an external stoicism and internal struggles with emotions, I'll probably enjoy it.


I think I'm starting to sweat a little over here because the most identifiable thing about my writing style is that I write male protagonists who seem emotionally shallow on the outside, but are in tremendous turmoil on the inside. That is what I use to drive all of my stories.

If I take that away, the only thing that will be identifiable about my work is the fact that all of my males protagonists have a talking penis. What, are going to next say that that's a turnoff too?


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Ladyeclectic said:


> Exactly! I've tried to explain it to friends and they do NOT get it. They seem squicked by the entrance point, forgetting that they themselves love when their girlfriends allow.... *blush* Erm, nevermind, family friendly board and all that.


Oh, and can I say how much I really want to know what the end of that thought is? It's like on Sienfeld. You yada yada yada'd the best part!


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## Inara Stone (Aug 31, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> I think I'm starting to sweat a little over here because the most identifiable thing about my writing style is that I write male protagonists who seem emotionally shallow on the outside, but are in tremendous turmoil on the inside. That is what I use to drive all of my stories.
> 
> If I take that away, the only thing that will be identifiable about my work is the fact that all of my males protagonists have a talking penis. What, are going to next say that that's a turnoff too?


Cristian, I think you should write what feels right for you. We can talk about different likes and dislikes forever, but all that really matters is an honest story. Don't throw away your unique perspective in trying to fit into a stereotype of what women want. I'm a woman trying to figure out what women and men want, and all I can do is write what feels right to me. People will like it or they won't.

I can't speak for the talking penis, but I've talked to a few, and it might have been nice to hear what they have to say. Maybe, "Are we almost done? It's really hot and stuffy in here."


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> I actually find that kind of funny to read, because as a masculine man, I write about masculine men and they are nothing but feelings... you know, just like the way men are in real life.
> 
> Come on now, just because men can't express their feelings or choose not to doesn't mean that they aren't awash with them. And think about how many more feelings you develop when you think that you can't express said feelings.
> 
> I dare say that women just don't understand how tough it is to be a man.


Yup even Alpha Males are insecure. Which is probably why they are Alphas in the first place.

I think an interesting twist, could be a Dominant male who's forced to earn his role. He's got to work for it..right? Where's the fun if every potential partner he meets, just rolls overs and spread his (or her) legs?

Perhaps he has a rebellious mate (male or female), who has suddenly decided resist. How will he break down that resistance?

What is he thinking when his partner surprises him with the unexpected? How does he regain control?

Tension and the possibility of things turning out differently than expected make for good erotica writing IMHO. An Alpha isn't an Alpha unless he's(or she's) worked for it.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Okay, I'm exhausted right now, but I just wanted to share that yesterday I wrote over 9,600 words and finished my first work of erotic fiction. The first draft comes in at exactly 12,700 words.

Now I must sleep.


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

Hi, Genevieve!  *waves*

Thank you for the re-post.  (ooo, I feel famous!  )

Wow, I forgot how loooooong that post was.  Seriously, that thing is so long, I should put it on Amazon and charge .99 for it!    Almost makes it look like I know what I'm talking about.    But the forever-and-a-day it took to write was all worth it since someone not only read the whole thing, but saved it!  LOL.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

Juliette Dupree said:


> Hi, Genevieve! *waves*
> 
> Thank you for the re-post. (ooo, I feel famous!  )
> 
> Wow, I forgot how loooooong that post was. Seriously, that thing is so long, I should put it on Amazon and charge .99 for it!  Almost makes it look like I know what I'm talking about.  But the forever-and-a-day it took to write was all worth it since someone not only read the whole thing, but saved it! LOL.


Hi back! And thanks for the insight in the first place, for reals.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Juliette Dupree said:


> Hi, Genevieve! *waves*
> 
> Thank you for the re-post. (ooo, I feel famous!  )
> 
> Wow, I forgot how loooooong that post was. Seriously, that thing is so long, I should put it on Amazon and charge .99 for it!  Almost makes it look like I know what I'm talking about.  But the forever-and-a-day it took to write was all worth it since someone not only read the whole thing, but saved it! LOL.


Yes, thank you so much. It was well written and very helpful!


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

Genevieve and Cristian- you're welcome!  I wish others would post stuff like that more often, especially those with experience.  I'm all about learning the craft of writing, including the marketing side.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

I have a question for everyone. Generally speaking, how many sex scenes do you put in a story? And how long are the stories? So for example, is it 2 sex scenes in 4k words or 3 scenes in 8K words?

In my first story I put 4


Spoiler



acts of pentration


 in 12K words with other small acts of titillation. But I'm having a harder time putting as many in the second story, because the story takes over in that one. I'm trying to figure out if I should make a better effort to add more or if the first one just over shot its mark?


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> I have a question for everyone. Generally speaking, how many sex scenes do you put in a story? And how long are the stories? So for example, is it 2 sex scenes in 4k words or 3 scenes in 8K words?
> 
> In my first story I put 4
> 
> ...


That depends entirely on the subgenre and heat level you are aiming at. Did you get a hold of some erotica and read it? That might give you some clues on how to go.

I can generally break down my standard pattern of "attraction," "lover period," "crisis," "reconciliation." (Not always exact, but, you know, generally speaking.) The sexual content varies according to couples' relationship arc, but not always in the same way for each story.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I can generally break down my standard pattern of "attraction," "lover period," "crisis," "reconciliation." (Not always exact, but, you know, generally speaking.) The sexual content varies according to couples' relationship arc, but not always in the same way for each story.


So, am I correct in assuming that you are following the romance story structure? Hmmm... I guess I would say that my heat level is pretty high then. That's helpful to know.

This is turning into a very interesting endeavour. I'm going to have to guess that I'm not following the acceptable storytelling structure for erotica. And because that is the case, this series has suddenly gotten exciting for me. As I've mentioned above I'm probably going to be giving some, if not all of these books away. That fact allows me to experiment with structure and draw on story progression triggers that I would never use in my other series.

After finishing the first book, I have plotted out a four book series where although each of the books are structured like porn, when tied together they make one 40K or 50K word novel. As opposed to the individual novelettes, the series is about 2 people in their early 20's who start out on the opposite sides of the innocent/corruption scale.

The thrust of the book is about how they are both inspired by the other to go to the opposite side of the scale than where they begun. It is also about how two people that start out with nothing but their sexuality and cunning, escape their upbringing to chisel out their own piece of the American dream from the corrupt world of sex and drugs where they found each other.

Now that I typed it out, I can see that I have way over thought these books. In truth this series is starting to fit in very nicely with all of my other books. Certainly the themes are very similar and the characters have similar hangups and motivations. If it wasn't for all of the nonstop questionable sex in them, I would gladly publish them under my name.

I have to say that I am suddenly really glad that I decided to try this genre. I would never have thought to experiment like this while working in any other genre. I'm not sure if people will get what they expect when they read the books, but I can already tell that the boundaries of my creativity have been stretched. And odds are that this new story structure and character development technique will carry over into my non-erotic books.

I think that I'm actually going to be very proud of my erotic book series. It's just too bad that no one will ever know that Cristian YoungMiller wrote them. 

Today I created the outline for book 2. Tomorrow morning I begin writing.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Mine are primarily erotic-romance or romantic-erotica depending on the heat level, so, yes, I kind of follow the romance arc - but at 10-15k, extremely streamlined, and obviously with most of the emphasis on the sex. The relationship development is done through the sex in ways, so that the nature of the sex (heated, exploratory, angry, frustrated, sweet, etc) mirrors the stage of the relationship. 

But, as I say, this is adaptable. My upcoming Halloween story starts right at the first paragraph with doorway sex, so... Hey, whatever the story needs, right?


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Hey, I just finished the first draft of the second book in my erotic book series. That one was a little over 13,500 words. I'm worried that the 2nd one spends too much time on story instead of steamy sex. Oh well, they were just meant to be experiments in either case.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> I think I'm starting to sweat a little over here because the most identifiable thing about my writing style is that I write male protagonists who seem emotionally shallow on the outside, but are in tremendous turmoil on the inside. That is what I use to drive all of my stories.
> 
> If I take that away, the only thing that will be identifiable about my work is the fact that all of my males protagonists have a talking penis. What, are going to next say that that's a turnoff too?


I read M/M Romance and gay erotica. And, being a gay man, that puts me square in the minority of readers as most M/M Romance readers are straight women. For myself, I don't care how emotional a character is so long as he's emotional the way a guy would experience his emotions. Guys who react like women in either genre is a HUGE turnoff. I don't want a bottom to be 5'5", slim, meek and swooning over the big stud - it makes me think of a stereotypical giggle behind your hand Asian chick. Even in a D/s story, I want both the Dom and sub to be guys - one can be submissive without being nelly ....


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> I read M/M Romance and gay erotica. And, being a gay man, that puts me square in the minority of readers as most M/M Romance readers are straight women. For myself, I don't care how emotional a character is so long as he's emotional the way a guy would experience his emotions. Guys who react like women in either genre is a HUGE turnoff. I don't want a bottom to be 5'5", slim, meek and swooning over the big stud - it makes me think of a stereotypical giggle behind your hand Asian chick. Even in a D/s story, I want both the Dom and sub to be guys - one can be submissive without being nelly ....


I hope you don't me asking, but I've always wondered - does M/M written by women seem inauthentic too often? This is why I don't write M/M - it's outside my frame of reference, and I don't want to write something that's just plain fake.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Hey, I just finished the first draft of the second book in my erotic book series. That one was a little over 13,500 words. I'm worried that the 2nd one spends too much time on story instead of steamy sex. Oh well, they were just meant to be experiments in either case.


I've had that problem with a few of mine. I usually write, and then hack off a bunch of the first pages. I've also set aside stories that were too story-heavy and started over.


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## Sara Pierce (May 15, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I hope you don't me asking, but I've always wondered - does M/M written by women seem inauthentic too often? This is why I don't write M/M - it's outside my frame of reference, and I don't want to write something that's just plain fake.


I cut my m/m reading/writing chops on Fanfiction.net and, yes, many writers have difficulty with the two-males dynamic. So many are/were programmed by romance novels/films/etc with the mindset that there has to be a "feminine" and "masculine", and wrote accordingly. Perhaps there are some people who like this but when one of the men in the story giggles, acts coquettish or wants nothing more than to cuddle, it doesn't ring true of gay people I know personally (and I know a lot). Many m/m writers (and by that I don't mean through vetted publishers) have no idea how gay men act outside of TV or film but like the idea, so write what relationships they know. It could also be that they lack experience writing a male mindset as men and women really do view the world differently.

And, yes, I *know* men can enjoy cuddling, may giggle on occasion or be effeminate, but there are stories that really cross the line and one (or both) of the men are


Spoiler



chicks with dicks


.


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## BiancaDArc (Sep 5, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> *Levels of Erotica: A Smart-Aleck Top 5 List:*
> 
> Erotica, Level 01: "Gosh, Joanie, I'd sure like it if we could go out on a second date!"
> 
> ...


Um... okay... take this from a romance writer. What is described above as "Erotica, Level 01" is really what is known in the industry as "Sweet Romance." No explicit sex scenes, just romance. There is even a subgenre of this known as "Christian Romance."

What is described above as "Erotica, Level 04" is really the mainstream romance novel. Actually, most mainstream novels today.

Menage is actually either Erotic Romance or "porn" (depending on how you define that). I tend to go with the idea that if there is a cohesive storyline built around the polyamorous relationship, then it's probably erotic romance. If it's just sex, sex and more sex, with no real story line, then it's probably "porn" or really, just "erotica." No romance element.

Now, this is an area of GREAT debate currently. I write, by my definitions, both romance and erotic romance. By my definitions, I DO NOT write erotica. But other people's definitions will vary widely, so take that as you will.

Good luck!
~Bianca


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> I read M/M Romance and gay erotica. And, being a gay man, that puts me square in the minority of readers as most M/M Romance readers are straight women. For myself, I don't care how emotional a character is so long as he's emotional the way a guy would experience his emotions. Guys who react like women in either genre is a HUGE turnoff. I don't want a bottom to be 5'5", slim, meek and swooning over the big stud - it makes me think of a stereotypical giggle behind your hand Asian chick. Even in a D/s story, I want both the Dom and sub to be guys - one can be submissive without being nelly ....


Thanks for the feedback. I wonder if women readers feel the same way.

Too be honest, I've never read a book where I could identify with the complexity of emotions that I, as a man, have. The closest I've come is Gateway by Fredrick Pohl. But even then the emotion that the male protagonist had was what he displayed. In my experience that is hardly the way that men experience emotion. In my experience that is hardly the way that women express emotions either. But of course I might be working with a biased sample group.

To me most people are in protection mode which can lead to emotional complexity that aren't in the books I read. Then again, maybe it's just the books that I read that are the problem.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I've had that problem with a few of mine. I usually write, and then hack off a bunch of the first pages. I've also set aside stories that were too story-heavy and started over.


Hmmm, I can't start over and I can't scrap it. It's not that I spend too much of the book on the story, it's actually that I'm concerned that the sex isn't steamy enough. The story dictated that the sex scenes not be as vanilla as in the first book. And instead of being sexy, the sex is kind of S&M dark.

Now don't get me wrong, it all organically happens and is necessary to progress the story and the main character's relationship. To that end it serves its purpose very well. I just wonder if after the first book the reader will say "Wait, this isn't the same genre as the first book."

And there are a lot of complex psychological things going on with the main character and their father, which isn't sexy, but again necessary for everything that follows in this book and the next 2 books. The character's father is the antagonist in the story, but at the same time the father is the character that forces the two mains in a emotional place where they could truly get to know each other in a way that allows them to fall in love with each other.

Hmmm, it just hit me, maybe what I'm writing isn't erotica as much as it is romance erotica series. Perhaps that tag will allow me the space I need to write the story as I've envisioned it.

Anyway, thank goodness that I'm only doing this series as an experiment.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Hmmm, I can't start over and I can't scrap it. It's not that I spend too much of the book on the story, it's actually that I'm concerned that the sex isn't steamy enough. The story dictated that the sex scenes not be as vanilla as in the first book. And instead of being sexy, the sex is kind of S&M dark.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, it all organically happens and is necessary to progress the story and the main character's relationship. To that end it serves its purpose very well. I just wonder if after the first book the reader will say "Wait, this isn't the same genre as the first book."
> 
> ...


Why can't you cut or set aside? IMO, it's important to be prepared to do these things for the good of a project. It's not that I throw them out completely - I just set them aside for possible use elsewhere in the future. For example, the aborted beginning to this year's Thanksgiving erotic-romance short was too plot-heavy for under 15k, so I set it aside and wrote a more simple one with more room for the hot stuff - that plot-heavy one, I'm turning into a novella next spring. Nothing was wasted, but I didn't spend too much time wrestling with something that was getting out of hand. It was more efficient to just start over than to make it work in 10-15k.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

anne_holly said:


> I hope you don't me asking, but I've always wondered - does M/M written by women seem inauthentic too often? This is why I don't write M/M - it's outside my frame of reference, and I don't want to write something that's just plain fake.


No, I've read quite a bit by women - possibly slightly more written by men than by women. Most do a pretty good job; I think where some authors fail where others succeed is when both guys don't have a male ego. I'm a pretty openly emotional guy and I'm definitely not a macho dude but I still have that ego thing that sometimes gets me all unnecessarily stubborn.


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Hmmm, I can't start over and I can't scrap it. It's not that I spend too much of the book on the story, it's actually that I'm concerned that the sex isn't steamy enough. The story dictated that the sex scenes not be as vanilla as in the first book. And instead of being sexy, the sex is kind of S&M dark.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, it all organically happens and is necessary to progress the story and the main character's relationship. To that end it serves its purpose very well. I just wonder if after the first book the reader will say "Wait, this isn't the same genre as the first book."
> 
> ...


Is the first book published, and did you bill it as an erotic romance? Or a plain vanilla romance? Because if you created an expectation with readers, with no hint that S&M is coming in the next book, people will be upset. I would be really mad if I bought a book with S&M in it, and had no idea. It's not my thing. Once a book I read had a threesome with anal sex (and who knows what else, I stopped reading). That was not what I wanted...the cover and the blurb both gave a clear expectation of heterosexal one-on-on, vanilla erotic romance. And this was a legacy-published book! I was so mad, I one-starred it. The publisher should have put three people on the cover and put some kind of warning or description in the blurb. Not cool.

So if your book is part of a series, and you've created a certain expectation, you need to live up to that expectation, or start a new series. It's not fair to the readers, otherwise.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Why can't you cut or set aside? IMO, it's important to be prepared to do these things for the good of a project. It's not that I throw them out completely - I just set them aside for possible use elsewhere in the future. For example, the aborted beginning to this year's Thanksgiving erotic-romance short was too plot-heavy for under 15k, so I set it aside and wrote a more simple one with more room for the hot stuff - that plot-heavy one, I'm turning into a novella next spring. Nothing was wasted, but I didn't spend too much time wrestling with something that was getting out of hand. It was more efficient to just start over than to make it work in 10-15k.


Well, the way I am structuring them is that they are 4 novelettes that tell the story of my two mains falling in love... but not your typical romantic love, but the love that comes from having proof that when you are going through something horrible, this person will be by your side... and hence you fall in love with them. And to do that, I need to put the characters in horrible situations. Book 2 was the book when that has to happen.

So I tried to make the sex as sexy as I could, but no matter what I do, it will need to be something that allows for a trust to develop in one of the characters who has been taught in the most harsh of ways that he can't trust anyone at all. And since they all live in a world of sex, what has to happen has to involve sex in some way.

But on top of that, because it is a series, I feel like the sex can't be the same as in book 1. I'm not sure. It could be fine but it certainly didn't capture my interest while writing it like the scenes in Book 1 did.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> I think where some authors fail where others succeed is when both guys don't have a male ego.


That's an interesting observation. I've never thought about that. I don't know if I put egos in any of my male characters. I put cockiness and bravado but when my characters resist from doing something it is out of some expression of fear... other than ego. I don't think that I've ever written a stubborn character... except for the talking penis, I guess. But that's good food for thought.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Juliette Dupree said:


> Is the first book published, and did you bill it as an erotic romance? Or a plain vanilla romance? Because if you created an expectation with readers, with no hint that S&M is coming in the next book, people will be upset. I would be really mad if I bought a book with S&M in it, and had no idea. It's not my thing. Once a book I read had a threesome with anal sex (and who knows what else, I stopped reading). That was not what I wanted...the cover and the blurb both gave a clear expectation of heterosexal one-on-on, vanilla erotic romance. And this was a legacy-published book! I was so mad, I one-starred it. The publisher should have put three people on the cover and put some kind of warning or description in the blurb. Not cool.
> 
> So if your book is part of a series, and you've created a certain expectation, you need to live up to that expectation, or start a new series. It's not fair to the readers, otherwise.


This is good to know. But no, the book isn't published yet. I'm either going to publish these two first or wait until I have all 4 done and at least give away the first one for free.

But you bring up an interesting question. I was thinking that an author had a creative freedom to write whatever they wanted to if they weren't being salacious and if it absolutely furthered the story. But I guess that that is also a little different in erotica. That is why I'm thinking that tagging the series romantic erotica gives me some wiggle room.

But here is my question: I have this scene where one character gets roped into a group S&M scene with absolutely no way of getting out of it (technically speaking, not in the sense that it is forced on them). The other main, not wanting the other character to go through what's about to happen alone, volunteers to be a part of it. What happens in the S&M segment is really unsexy. But what happens between the two mains as they are experiencing this, is extremely touching and the purest form of caring, love and self sacrifice that I could possibly write. (I know it is hard to imagine, but you will just have to take my word on the fact that the scene works on a romantic level  ) But neither of the characters want to be there doing what they're doing, and both know that they can't leave. Keep in mind that one of them volunteered to be there for the sake of the other.

So does having that scene now mean that I have to classify the book as S&M erotica? Am I now forced to put people in leather on its cover? Does that scene change the tagging for my entire series?


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> This is good to know. But no, the book isn't published yet. I'm either going to publish these two first or wait until I have all 4 done and at least give away the first one for free.
> 
> But you bring up an interesting question. I was thinking that an author had a creative freedom to write whatever they wanted to if they weren't being salacious and if it absolutely furthered the story. But I guess that that is also a little different in erotica. That is why I'm thinking that tagging the series romantic erotica gives me some wiggle room.
> 
> ...


It's just that many readers tend to stick to certain strains, and some who would read vanilla erotica would not choose to read BSDM - so, to present the first in one way without a hint might be annoying for them when they don't want to read the second due to hardcore content. So, the BSDM will have to be noted in the description, and you should end the first volume in some satisfying-enough way so the vanilla-lovers won't feel forced to read hardcore if they don't want.

There's freedom all around, but you always have to consider the reader expectations. And an uneven series in erotica (and erotic romance) is just as potentially problematic as in any genre.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> It's just that many readers tend to stick to certain strains, and some who would read vanilla erotica would not choose to read BSDM - so, to present the first in one way without a hint might be annoying for them when they don't want to read the second due to hardcore content. So, the BSDM will have to be noted in the description, and you should end the first volume in some satisfying-enough way so the vanilla-lovers won't feel forced to read hardcore if they don't want.
> 
> There's freedom all around, but you always have to consider the reader expectations. And an uneven series in erotica (and erotic romance) is just as potentially problematic as in any genre.


Makes a lot of sense. And since I wrote it to drive the reader to the next book I guess I will have to give some indication of what is to come in the description.

Do you think it's good enough to make some reference about the story taking place in "the dark underworld of sex?" I'm thinking that that would allow me to dip into the more intense stuff without having to say to the reader "by the way someone's going to put on leather and do unpleasant things with wax." But at the same time, it doesn't force me to make it all dark. Because really, the last 2 scenes in book 2 aren't really supposed to be titillating. I'm sure some would find it so, but not many.

Actually here's another questions: Does a book have to have titillating sex to be considered erotica. Someone above said that erotic has one purpose to stimulate. Is that absolutely true? If so, what does that make a book that is about a world of sex where some of the sex is written to titillate and the rest is written to tell the story? Is that erotica or literary fiction?


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> Makes a lot of sense. And since I wrote it to drive the reader to the next book I guess I will have to give some indication of what is to come in the description.
> 
> Do you think it's good enough to make some reference about the story taking place in "the dark underworld of sex?" I'm thinking that that would allow me to dip into the more intense stuff without having to say to the reader "by the way someone's going to put on leather and do unpleasant things with wax." But at the same time, it doesn't force me to make it all dark. Because really, the last 2 scenes in book 2 aren't really supposed to be titillating. I'm sure some would find it so, but not many.
> 
> Actually here's another questions: Does a book have to have titillating sex to be considered erotica. Someone above said that erotic has one purpose to stimulate. Is that absolutely true? If so, what does that make a book that is about a world of sex where some of the sex is written to titillate and the rest is written to tell the story? Is that erotica or literary fiction?


I think erotica doesn't really qualify if it doesn't arouse on some level. Even sensual romance arouses. Some reviewers actually rate it on how heated up they got.

My erotic-romance tells a story, but that is secondary to the sex.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I think erotica doesn't really qualify if it doesn't arouse on some level. Even sensual romance arouses. Some reviewers actually rate it on how heated up they got.
> 
> My erotic-romance tells a story, but that is secondary to the sex.


Does it? Then what category would a book be in if it takes place in a world of sex and only titillates when it's conducive to the story? Is it just straight drama or something like that? I mean, there is a lot of nudity and sex in my series. I'm just not willing to sacrifice story for yet another moment of titillation (I put in 4 acts of penetration in per novelette). And I'm positive that the reader will be very satisfied by the time they get to the end of the series, more so than if I made everything vanilla and titillating.

Can you tell that I really like the word 'titillating'?


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## Marata Eros (Jul 23, 2011)

@Geoffrey...I have one tiny M/M scene in my third installment of the Dara Nichols' Adventure series. Like all my books, I didn't view it as "gay" it was just a natural evolution of what was happening in the story. All my stories are this way. I am a "straight" female that writes whatever events occur naturally in the story and some of that includes F/F and [some] M/M action. Let's face it, when there are 3-6 people having sex together, things happen that aren't "scripted." I like that unpredictable, raw quality.

@OP: I have read several different "levels" of erotica and will be publishing an erotic paranormal romance novella this month. My "shorts" are explicit and diverse (in content). There are so many different "flavors" in this genre it would be difficult to quantify. It is really fun to write what "speaks." If it sells, great...but I don't want my work to have that "contrived" feel to it. I think readers are wanting something unique ( I am) and I keep that in mind when I write. Hopefully, people will gravitate to that. That would be my suggestion. Tons of male authors have followings in different erotica sub-genres. Good luck to you!

@anne_holly...amen!


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

Marata Eros said:


> @OP: I have read several different "levels" of erotica and will be publishing an erotic paranormal romance novella this month. My "shorts" are explicit and diverse (in content). There are so many different "flavors" in this genre it would be difficult to quantify. It is really fun to write what "speaks." If it sells, great...but I don't want my work to have that "contrived" feel to it. I think readers are wanting something unique ( I am) and I keep that in mind when I write. Hopefully, people will gravitate to that. That would be my suggestion. Tons of male authors have followings in different erotica sub-genres. Good luck to you!


Thanks Marata!


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

I've finished writing the third book in my series and I'm starting the 4th and final now. I'm having an issue with the the last one because I can't seem to work in as many sex scenes into this book as I did the others. Books 1 & 2 had 4 sex scenes. Book 3 had 3 sex scenes. And I can't seem to organically get more than 2 sex scenes into the last book. However one of the scenes is the first and only loving making scene between the two leads.

Do you think that this will be a problem? All of the books are about 12,000 words. What I'm hoping is that if a reader has made it to book 4, they are more interested to see how the story resolves itself. Do you agree? What are your thoughts on the topic?


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

FYI, this little experiment has worked out very well for me.


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## GerrieFerrisFinger (Jun 1, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> *Levels of Erotica: A Smart-Aleck Top 5 List:*
> 
> Erotica, Level 01: "Gosh, Joanie, I'd sure like it if we could go out on a second date!"
> 
> ...


LOL

Guess my love stories are between 03-04 - in the crack, so to speak


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## MichMasoch (Dec 1, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> But here is my question: I have this scene where one character gets roped into a group S&M scene with absolutely no way of getting out of it (technically speaking, not in the sense that it is forced on them). The other main, not wanting the other character to go through what's about to happen alone, volunteers to be a part of it. What happens in the S&M segment is really unsexy. But what happens between the two mains as they are experiencing this, is extremely touching and the purest form of caring, love and self sacrifice that I could possibly write. (I know it is hard to imagine, but you will just have to take my word on the fact that the scene works on a romantic level  ) But neither of the characters want to be there doing what they're doing, and both know that they can't leave. Keep in mind that one of them volunteered to be there for the sake of the other.
> 
> So does having that scene now mean that I have to classify the book as S&M erotica? Am I now forced to put people in leather on its cover? Does that scene change the tagging for my entire series?


official disclaimer: Please, bear in mind this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

Mixing BDSM elements into an otherwise non-kink story can present difficulties for both audiences. The mainstream audience may be turned off by BDSM, especially if it's done with a dark tone. Kink folk may take offense at their sexual preference being presented as a trauma to be overcome and suggestions that lack of consent of any kind is acceptable in BDSM (because it's not). Granted, there is a big niche for dubious consent BDSM, but it tends to stay out in the fringe on its own or is used in obviously fantasy scenarios like Sleeping Beauty and Story of O. In the real-life kink community, BDSM without consent is considered rape.

When I was active in kink education, one of the biggest hurdles we faced was overcoming the stigma of BDSM being used as a convenient bogeyman, a dark and sinister world where innocents are routinely hurt and abused. I guess my comment boils down to asking how you would feel about that part of your story as someone who practices BDSM. Is the S&M angle critical to the event or is kink just the chosen vehicle for a random act of violence? There are still ways to keep the S&M aspect, but I would be as sensitive as possible to the impression you leave since some of your potential readers may be lifestyle kinksters.


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## Cristian YoungMiller (Mar 3, 2011)

MichMasoch said:


> official disclaimer: Please, bear in mind this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.
> 
> Mixing BDSM elements into an otherwise non-kink story can present difficulties for both audiences. The mainstream audience may be turned off by BDSM, especially if it's done with a dark tone. Kink folk may take offense at their sexual preference being presented as a trauma to be overcome and suggestions that lack of consent of any kind is acceptable in BDSM (because it's not). Granted, there is a big niche for dubious consent BDSM, but it tends to stay out in the fringe on its own or is used in obviously fantasy scenarios like Sleeping Beauty and Story of O. In the real-life kink community, BDSM without consent is considered rape.
> 
> When I was active in kink education, one of the biggest hurdles we faced was overcoming the stigma of BDSM being used as a convenient bogeyman, a dark and sinister world where innocents are routinely hurt and abused. I guess my comment boils down to asking how you would feel about that part of your story as someone who practices BDSM. Is the S&M angle critical to the event or is kink just the chosen vehicle for a random act of violence? There are still ways to keep the S&M aspect, but I would be as sensitive as possible to the impression you leave since some of your potential readers may be lifestyle kinksters.


I can respect that. However, in my case it was essential to the story. It was the turning point of the relationship between the two main characters. I'm not sure what readers thought about it, but I do know that I've sold quite a few of the books. And the book that contained this story line (and that had a corresponding cover), was the best selling of all of the books even though it wasn't the first book in the series.

What I have learned though, is that there is a huge middle group that finds a hint of BDSM titillating. I would imagine that those readers would not participate in BDSM, but would use it as part of their fantasy life. And when it is a part of one's fantasy life exclusively, there is almost no holds barred.

That is simply what I have learned from writing and selling books.


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## MichMasoch (Dec 1, 2011)

Cristian YoungMiller said:


> I can respect that. However, in my case it was essential to the story. It was the turning point of the relationship between the two main characters. I'm not sure what readers thought about it, but I do know that I've sold quite a few of the books. And the book that contained this story line (and that had a corresponding cover), was the best selling of all of the books even though it wasn't the first book in the series.
> 
> What I have learned though, is that there is a huge middle group that finds a hint of BDSM titillating. I would imagine that those readers would not participate in BDSM, but would use it as part of their fantasy life. And when it is a part of one's fantasy life exclusively, there is almost no holds barred.
> 
> That is simply what I have learned from writing and selling books.


There is a undoubtedly a massive audience for the BDSM version of a bodice-ripper and, for folks like me, that can be a good and bad thing. On the good side, there is a greater empathy for what we do, as well as a thriving market for kink-flavored erotica. Conversely, there is the possibility of misunderstanding, to say the least.

Thank you for indulging my sensitivity. I appreciate your being thoughtful about what could be a touchy subject.


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## joelsstafford (Sep 19, 2020)

I just faced exactly with this dilemma.
On our website I tried to help the readers with a rating system that distinguishes the different adult and non adult romance categories. 
These are our ratings:

Clean Romance (1) 
Romance (2) - Limited physical contacts, no sex scenes
Steamy Romance (3) - A lot of physical contacts, kisses, no explicit sex scene
Erotic Romance (4) - Limited sex scenes with some details
Erotica (5) - The story focuses on the sexual relationship of the protagonist, a lot of explicit sex scenes
BDSM Erotica (6) - BDSM, punishment, mistress scenes

Source
https://birdsheaven.com/our-erotic-rating-system/


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## Karen Monroe (Sep 19, 2020)

I no longer care about a distinction. If I want to write smut and romance I’ll write it. If I want to write just romance I will write that. I used to call what I do “Romantica” (romance/erotica), but I’ve learned through reading habits and market trends that what’s important is to tell a good story....erotica/romance/romantica/erotic romance. Just tell a good story people want to read. 

IMO...doesn’t matter how much sex is in it as long as it helps you tell a good story.


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Someone resurrected a thread that's nearly a decade old.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

I think a lot of it is dependent on the author. There are set sub-genres, but an author still has a bit of latitude as long as the right tropes are hit, and the sex is present.

Yeah, decade old thread... interesting glimpse into KBs past.


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