# A troubling tendency on KBoards



## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

Most of us (including me) have aspirations to turn this writing gig into our main careers and quit or scale back on the day job(s).  I think those goals are laudable, and I hope that most if not all of us are able to make it.  However, I wonder if in our enthusiasm to build our careers, we're putting too much emphasis on monetary measures of success, like sales, and not enough emphasis on building connections with readers, writing meaningful stories, or reconnecting with the things that made us write in the first place.

Sales and income are certainly important, but I cannot believe that they are the most important thing.  They're certainly not the reasons I started writing in the first place.  And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.

Not sure if I have a solution to this problem, but it's a troubling tendency in this community that I wanted to point out.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Both are important, and not interchangeable.
Both are equally deserving of thought.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm not so sure they're equal, though.  Money comes and goes, but stories can change lives forever.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

The name is "Writers' Cafe," yet there are a zillion other places to discuss craft on the net, and we're not like those places. You're right; we do talk mainly about the business of publishing on here.

I started writing simply for fun. Then my goal shifted to the prize of "being published." Then I did it myself, and it was really nice to have people read my story. Then I saw all these other amazing indies with their publishing empires, and I decided maybe it was time to have a Big Dream for the first time in my life. Up until recently, my dreams were Modest and Achievable, because I didn't think I deserved Big Dreams.

So, there's this part of me with a little chip on my shoulder that rejects the idea in the OP that my Dreams may now be Too Big.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

I'll just say this, becasue it's all new to me.  My first "successful" book is pretty new.  But when you get those sales, which come with that money, you also get the fans.  I get several emails a day now from people who just want to say they love the book.  So, it's FAR easier to build reader connections when everyone reading your book and you're making a butt-load of money.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

It's the difference between writing and publishing. Writing can be very personal, but publishing is a business. Self publishers have to wear a lot of different hats. Sales are also a simple way to measure impact. If the book isn't selling, then it isn't changing anyone's life.


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## markobeezy (Jan 30, 2012)

"Choose a job you love and you will never work a day in your life."

--Confucious


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

I don't see the issue. For me, connecting with readers and making sales go hand in hand.

I focus a lot on sales and promotions, but I'll post my Facebook page link. Take a look and see if I'm connecting with them or not.

http://www.facebook.com/shawninmonwriter


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## Stuffeshead (Jan 19, 2011)

I really don't believe the spheres of thought are mutually exclusive, or that one necessarily detracts from the other.  Let us all remember that Shakespeare wrote some of the most richly-developed works of literary art known to the history of man, and did so with a clear intent to garner the most attendance possible to earn money in his theater.  Yet despite his focus on maximizing shillings, his work flourished and stands as a paragon of literary virtue.  Truly, several of my students in years past believed Shakespeare's work was discovered long after his death, and they were completely unaware of the contemporary impact of his work on the audiences he attracted.

I agree with the idea that literary artists should pay close attention to their craft.  But, as my grandfather was fond of saying, "A man's gotta eat."  A person's financial survival is, itself, a literary arc in the realm of human existence and is the core of many great literary works.  Writing is art.  Writing is work.  Both are true.

At least to me....

Stuffeshead


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## passport (Mar 19, 2013)

Mr. Vasicek:  no easy answer.  What works for me:
-discussing the art(s) in person. 
-doing my best in writing (brevity, grammar, "etc.")
-aiming to sell.

Not ashamed writing for money, 'cause Dickens is the model for that.  And we is a 'umble person, we 'as no pertensions to be as gran' as Meester Dickens, do we, Precious


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## T.K. (Mar 8, 2011)

I think many artists sway like a pendulum from one side (the writing/passion/art side) to the business side. We need both. And it can be hard to reconcile the two. However, I like to think the writing and the business side both have their time and place and trying to make them equal isn't going to work. One is from within (art) and the other is looking outside (sales). You can write and be completely satisfied. But if you want to impact lives you need sales (to reach people). Maybe success is not reaching a lot of people (a lot of sales) but reaching a few people. I think it depends on the individual.

Just my thoughts.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Sales and income are certainly important, but I cannot believe that they are the most important thing. They're certainly not the reasons I started writing in the first place. And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.
> 
> Not sure if I have a solution to this *problem*, but it's a troubling tendency in this community that I wanted to point out."


What makes it a problem? Is there some motivational and aspirational litmus test?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I don't see why this is "troubling." As Burke said, we're writers here, but we're also publishers. The business end of writing, which involves making money, is important for many of us. I've said before that I'm widowed and raising four kids, who will all (hopefully!) be going to college one after the other, meaning that I'll be paying tuition steadily for the next thirteen or fourteen years. As a result, making money is very important to me, but so is writing (otherwise I'd go do something else that generates a steadier income!). I've always believed that writing what you love is the best way to build an audience, and don't see the two things as mutually exclusive. So writing _and _sales are important to me. I honestly don't see why this should "trouble" anyone.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

I write because writing gives me joy, but I publish for money. Kindleboards gives me a great inside into the publishing business, that’s the main reason why I lurk here.  I think, since Writers' Cafe is more focused on business aspect of writing, not the craft aspect, to see large numbers of threads that focus on sales is somehow expected, isn’t it?


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

I aim for monetary success because it provides me the opportunity to write full time, as both my profession and my hobby. I see nothing wrong with wanting to make a living doing what you love.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

The craft aspect of writing changes only slowly. The business aspect changes daily. I come here to keep up with the changes.


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## Lorraine (Jun 10, 2013)

I totally get your point.

So, question: imagine you made loads of money and became hugely successful writing utter trash.

Would you be happy?


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Most of us (including me) have aspirations to turn this writing gig into our main careers and quit or scale back on the day job(s). I think those goals are laudable, and I hope that most if not all of us are able to make it. However, I wonder if in our enthusiasm to build our careers, we're putting too much emphasis on monetary measures of success, like sales, and not enough emphasis on building connections with readers, writing meaningful stories, or reconnecting with the things that made us write in the first place.
> 
> Sales and income are certainly important, but I cannot believe that they are the most important thing. They're certainly not the reasons I started writing in the first place. And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.
> 
> Not sure if I have a solution to this problem, but it's a troubling tendency in this community that I wanted to point out.


Post on a message board that there's a tendency that the focus might always be on money and you get the expected responses. It's all money all the time here at kboard$.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I'm not so sure they're equal, though. Money comes and goes, but stories can change lives forever.


I'm not sure I can agree. How many more stories would Poe have written had be been able to earn a living? I hate seeing authors attacked for expecting to be paid for their work. While I'm sure your comments weren't meant to be an attack, telling people that this isn't important just troubles me. It ties into a theme you see across the internet where authors are regularly taken to task for daring to want remuneration for their work.

There are plenty of places where you can talk about the art of writing, not so many where you can talk about the business of self-publishing. KB is invaluable and I don't want ANYONE to be afraid to discuss the business side. I am not at all troubled. In fact, that is why I came back after swearing (and meaning) that I was done with KB not all that long ago.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I actually don't like craft-heavy boards because they tend to be incredibly elitist about niche genres and unconventional storytelling.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Lorraine said:


> I totally get your point.
> 
> So, question: imagine you made loads of money and became hugely successful writing utter trash.
> 
> Would you be happy?


Money can buy happiness?


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## JoJo Gould (Jul 11, 2011)

I would guess it seems that way as those who are achieving healthy sales are more likely to post and interact on here. As a result, and on the plus side, this forum is a phenomenal resource of first-hand experience from the daily coalface of ebook self-publishing.

For every contributor, though, there are probably dozens of lurkers who don't feel confident about posting due to low or negligible sales.

Personally, if my writing was based on commercial success, I would have downed tools after volume 1.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I suspect this is all a cultural holdover from the days when the nobility, clergy, and artists considered themselves superior to the merchant. I also see this theme in much of the criticism of independents that comes from traditional publishing.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> Money can buy happiness?


I know you wrote that tongue in cheek, but the main point of money is to buy the ability to do the things you love, right? So if you hate your job, it really doesn't matter how big a pile of money you sleep on every night. My financial goal is to make enough money to be able to continue making a living writing the kind of stories that appeal to me. So yes, I chase the money, but only to a certain extent and no farther.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

Sales = $

$ = no day job

May I add, this is the only forum that gives good tips on how to make sales

If you really like your day job, don't waste your time trying to make sales. Just write and punch that time clock.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

These are two completely unrelated issues.  Certainly anyone can write what they want for whatever reason they want, and there isn't a thing in the world wrong with it.  When you venture into "changing lives" with writing and things of that nature you move into enormously subjective ground.  One person's deeply moving art is another's interminable drivel.  Anyone should write anything they want for whatever reason they want.

That said, the money isn't a secondary consideration for anyone trying to make a living off writing.  Do you have a day job?  Do you go to that job instead of staying home and writing?  Do you consider this to be "putting money ahead of art?"  Stay home, get fired, and create your art.  Just because most people wouldn't do that doesn't mean they are selling out somehow (though that perception appears to be widespread).  Unless you are the beneficiary of an extraordinarily fortunate birth, you probably need to make a living.  And if you decide you want to do it as a writer you need to approach it with all the logic, rationality, and diligence you would any career.

I think that's why so many people follow the financial aspects on here...because, while those selling a lot of books have certainly had considerable luck, they have also worked hard and developed strategies that work for them, that create some of that luck.  It's certainly more learnable than something amorphous, like artistic achievement.  It's one area where people who have done well can help those who are new.

If you are a professional writer, this is your job.  Have you felt guilty before for being paid for another job?  Yet there is this discomfort about discussing ways to sell more books and make more money.  It isn't logical.

Do you want to write and do you want to be a fulltime professional writer are two entirely different questions.  There's nothing wrong with either, but if you go into the effort to become a full time writer feeling guilty about making money you are very unlikely to succeed.


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## MT Berlyn (Mar 27, 2012)

Writing is the one art form that requires the audience to open the cover and absorb in solitude.  Should the audience be receptive, the artist (the writer) experiences his/her art form as validated.  I think everyone desires to put bread on the table through doing something one loves to do rather than what one is forced to do.  The carpenter, the writer, it doesn't matter the skill.   The Writer's Cafe gathers those interested in the business aspect of writing and is a good source of information, in that respect, for those aspiring to publish their work.  I began writing many, many years ago to dissuade a critical depression and it was a salvation, as it were.  Independent publishing comes with its own set of anxieties, so, for me, I have to tread carefully sometimes on where it is I go for community spirit.  Writer's Cafe fits one aspect of writing, but not all.  The beauty of technology is that one can go to many places to fill in the circle one needs.  I understand what you are saying, though, Joe; but again, all things are not necessarily found in one place.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Lorraine said:


> So, question: imagine you made loads of money and became hugely successful writing utter trash.
> 
> Would you be happy?


Write what I like under pen names, spend all that delicious money stalking Hugh Howey. Why wouldn't I be happy?


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Why not have it both ways?

Plenty of writers in the past have authored one pseudonymous genre of book to pay the rent, and another genre of book that was their passion. I'm not sure an author has to choose one or the other.


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## RJ Locksley (Oct 21, 2011)

Lorraine said:


> So, question: imagine you made loads of money and became hugely successful writing utter trash.


I can only dream of becoming hugely successful writing utter trash. That sounds like great fun.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

NathanWrann said:


> Money can buy happiness?


No, but it makes misery a lot more tolerable.

Whenever somebody says, "It's not about the money," it's usually about the money.

Whenever somebody says, "I'm not in it for the money," I think, "But take away the money, and you likely won't be in it."

Those are all the fitting bromides I have today. Carry on.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> I know you wrote that tongue in cheek, but the main point of money is to buy the ability to do the things you love, right? So if you hate your job, it really doesn't matter how big a pile of money you sleep on every night. My financial goal is to make enough money to be able to continue making a living writing the kind of stories that appeal to me. So yes, I chase the money, but only to a certain extent and no farther.


Totally.

My original response was regarding making loads of money while writing utter trash and the question of "would that make you happy" and the assumption that what would create the happiness is the loads of money


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

DDark said:


> I hold a number of giveaways, paying shipping out of my pocket.


I just announced two winners today - both are international! LOL... "Yeah, sure, I'll make it international! What's the chance I'll actually choose someone from SWEDEN?" Yup - sending paperbacks to Sweden this week.


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## Sarah M (Apr 6, 2013)

It seems like a chicken or egg question. How do you connect with readers if you don't market and apply business practices, because readers are consumers?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "So, I have a problem with the "how soon do I get rich" mindset of sales over craft, and especially sales over work and dedication."


I admire anyone who has a high ratio of sales to work. Good for them.


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Most of us (including me) have aspirations to turn this writing gig into our main careers and quit or scale back on the day job(s). I think those goals are laudable, and I hope that most if not all of us are able to make it. However, I wonder if in our enthusiasm to build our careers, we're putting too much emphasis on monetary measures of success, like sales


Without sales, there is no career.

If you don't care about sales, by all means go and write fan-fiction. That is not why we are here. We are here to write what we love AND get paid doing it. Writing just for the sake of it? In Obama's recession, with mortgages, student loans and car payments through the roof? Have you ever tried writing 1500 words a day when student loan scum centers are calling non-stop, even when you DO pay your bills on time?

"Quantity equals quality. If you only write a few things, you're doomed." - Ray Bradbury


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## AriaS (May 6, 2013)

Rykymus said:


> I aim for monetary success because it provides me the opportunity to write full time, as both my profession and my hobby. I see nothing wrong with wanting to make a living doing what you love.


That's a great answer, and I completely agree. One's a writer, but one's also a publisher.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

When a bunch of successful writers get together, do you know what they talk about? Can you guess? Hint: It's not craft, or storytelling, or plot ideas.

It is always about the business of book selling, and how to sell more. Always. I've been fortunate to be involved in a number of discussions with some pretty big names, and craft rarely comes up. It's assumed that everyone's competent at their craft. So the talk turns to how to earn more from one's writing, what's working and what isn't, trends, etc.

Writing can certainly be art, and at the very least, is a craft.

Self-publishing, which is where you put that work up for sale, is a business. I'm under the impression that most authors here are trying to sell their work, thus their interest in how to do so successfully. Nothing odd or alarming about that. 

In closing, writing doesn't require anyone to defend it.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Rykymus said:


> I aim for monetary success because it provides me the opportunity to write full time, as both my profession and my hobby. I see nothing wrong with wanting to make a living doing what you love.


+1 ^^


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm with those who don't think writing for money is a problem. I started writing evenings and weekends from a different job, and when I found I was making enough at it, I went full-time as a freelancer (I edit as well as write, but they're very related, at least in my non-fiction niche). If I didn't think about the money, I'd have to give it all up. I don't see how that would be "serving the craft," or whatever. 

I come to this board specifically with questions about marketing and sales and publishing and such because this has proven a good place to get answers. I wouldn't say I know everything about writing, not by a long shot, but after writing for over a decade and publishing over 60 books, I know how to answer a lot of the craft questions already. Just because I ask questions about financials here though doesn't mean I don't care about the quality of my writing. It's just that if I have questions there, I'm asking them somewhere else, mostly with industry-specific contacts I already had.

And hear, hear to those who say we don't need to feel embarrassed about or apologetic for both loving our work and getting paid for it.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> It's not a chicken and egg thing at all. Consumers want products that satisfy their needs. Simple as that. Write books they want to read - your audience is already out there, waiting.
> 
> So, learn to write really good books, have patience and write more, even better books. Business 101, no amount of advertising will generate consistent sales for a crappy product. If the writing sucks, the subject better really resonate.
> 
> ...


I agree with 99% of what you've posted here, but truth be told, you didn't _start_ reading King because you like his stories. You would have no idea what his stories were about before reading them. Something else got you to pick up your first King book. Was it a friends recommendation? Placement on an endcap at a bookstore? A cover? A film adaptation? A review? How did you first come to read a King book? What kept you coming back was the content.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

That's what I want


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

C.C. Kelly said:


> I posted something about this a few weeks ago and ruffled quite a few feathers and at the risk of doing it again...
> 
> I have a problem with new writers / KB members asking about sales right away, especially when they've only published one short story. It's not the questions that bug me, it's the way they diminish the study of the craft and the long hours of dedication required to actually write decent stories. These threads always boil down to "how soon do I get rich?" - seemingly without a genuine concern for the writing part.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, I don't come here for craft tips. I learn from reading books I love, that's how it's always been. I don't need people to tell me how they _write_, I need people to tell me how they _sell_. I've been writing for a very long time, as have many other authors who come here looking for advice on the business aspect of self-publishing. Many people on here aren't new to writing, but new to publishing, and that's the area they need the most help with.


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

> When a bunch of successful writers get together, do you know what they talk about? Can you guess? Hint: It's not craft, or storytelling, or plot ideas.
> 
> It is always about the business of book selling, and how to sell more. Always. I've been fortunate to be involved in a number of discussions with some pretty big names, and craft rarely comes up. It's assumed that everyone's competent at their craft. So the talk turns to how to earn more from one's writing, what's working and what isn't, trends, etc.
> 
> ...


That's the same in every profession. When I have a houseful of high end scientists from my husband's work, do they talk about gee whiz science? No. They talk about who's hiring, who's laying off, and who just got a promotion. If you didn't know all the science already, you wouldn't be here.

In the old days, the writer could curmudgeonly wax eloquent about "art" and b*tch about the bean-counters, but in self-publishing we can't maintain that separation. Of course, if you are independently wealthy, and only interested in "art" (And I am interested in art - I don't mean that to be derogatory ) you could always make all your books permafree and change the world at no charge to anyone.


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## KeithAllen (Jun 5, 2013)

Wow...I wonder if Joe thought he would get this level of response. 

As I sit here and stare at the drab brown confining walls of my cubicle, I can't help but hope that my books will produce money. I also know that they will not make money if they are poorly written, packaged, marketed, edited, etc. I know that after trying one of my books, readers will not try others if they don't connect with something in my work, or with me. 

I'm not sure that Joe was trying to make the Art vs. Commerce argument though. I read it that he was trying to point out that we need to consider connecting with readers and with the roots of why we write. Which I agree with. I don't think he was saying we should write for free or not try to make money. To me we will sell better if we do connect more with our audience and with why we write. A good story well marketed will outsell a poor story equally well marketed every time.

I write, because I'm a writer. If I'm not writing regularly I feel like the impact of gravity quadruples and I'm being crushed into the ground. I would write whether I made sales or not. I publish because I don't want to sit in this damn cubicle any longer than I have to.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Also, dude... why not just start some craft threads yourself?


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

For me, and I hope this doesn't come across as sounding like an egotistical jerk (especially to those who hate my writing), I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of my craft. I know my style, I know my voice... But man, the marketing? I am an idiot. I am the backwards bumpkin in this great big city. I come here to the kboards because I need help that. I don't start up craft threads or participate in them that much (I lurk around them, though) because they aren't the best use of my internet time. So, that's my analysis on how I'm contributing to the tone and topics of this forum.

But I think if you're feeling like there aren't enough threads focusing on the craft, start some! I bet there are other like minded individuals here on the kboards that would LOVE to talk about craft and would be so grateful for them! There's no right or wrong. No one says we HAVE to just talk about marketing. Do it! By the power of Kboards! You! Have! Power! *insert He-man theme*


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Soothesayer said:


> Without sales, there is no career.
> 
> If you don't care about sales, by all means go and write fan-fiction. That is not why we are here. We are here to write what we love AND get paid doing it. Writing just for the sake of it? In Obama's recession, with mortgages, student loans and car payments through the roof? Have you ever tried writing 1500 words a day when student loan scum centers are calling non-stop, even when you DO pay your bills on time?
> 
> "Quantity equals quality. If you only write a few things, you're doomed." - Ray Bradbury


Sorry Soothesayer, but I have to disagree with what I view as your broad generalisations. One can have a fulfilling career writing much, though selling little. It depends on one's objectives. I personally don;t care that I have non-existent sales (if I'm being honest I did early on but I've accepted my position as one of the Indie-publishing non-success stories and I don't even look at my dashboard reports anymore).

Ironically, fan-fiction seems to be an ever-growing well of sales success (the Wool fan-fiction outsells a lot of original material and 50 Shades was just that originally). There are still those of use who like to be original and accept that our stuff will not have market appeal anyway. Goals are personal. If you choose to write for profit, I respect that. Some (most) of us will barely profit but I hope all of us continue to write regardless.

I think Joe's original concern was the rise in soaring success stories being posted here on the Boards, along with posts about the monetary gains that a few lucky KBaorders enjoy because of them (how to get it, how to grow it, how to spend it etc). There have been quite a few posts lately in that realm, the nature of which applies only to a select few on here and to which most of us have no contribution to make ("Have you sales of 10000 or more? Post here" - Me, no - and "What have you bought with your KDP earnings? Tell us!" - Me, a pack or two of smokes).

Knowing that meaningful monetary success is possible, although for only a tiny percentage of the overall authors, here, is sometimes encouraging. Seeing that success constantly played out on the boards can also be dispiriting when you can't count yourself amongst the successful (like being invited to a millionaires party and only having the lint in your own pockets to buy drinks with).

I congratulate anyone who's done well. It surely didn't land in their laps. They had to work for it and good luck to one and all. But it is hard to watch post after post appear to which I know I can bring nothing to and take nothing from.

Now, where's my smokes?

Mike


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## Sarah M (Apr 6, 2013)

C.C. Kelly said:


> It's not a chicken and egg thing at all.


This is what I meant:

[chicken] Goal is to write enough interesting books to make a living. To do so means marketing and business practices to have a platform to engage readers wanting to buy the books.

[egg] Goal is to build a relationship with readers. To do so means writing enough interesting books that will provide the income to apply marketing and business practices to have a platform to engage the readers.

To me the goals are different but the process seems very similar.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

blakebooks said:


> When a bunch of successful writers get together, do you know what they talk about? Can you guess? Hint: It's not craft, or storytelling, or plot ideas.


Writers or publishers?

Whenever I get together with my filmmaker buddies, it's always about the art and technology of making films and rarely about the business side. Just sayin'


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

I think KB is a mature writing community filled with professional publishers. I like craft threads, but for the most part people are here to focus on the business end of publishing, not the craft of writing. So discussion about the business of publishing is normal and something that should be encouraged. This isn't a "writing" community but a "publishing" community. There is a basic assumption that if you plan to publish, you should have already mastered the basics of writing.

I think the actual problem is that we tend to focus on _offering sales advice_ before we even bother to see if someone has _something worth selling_. There have been so many threads recently that go something like "How long until I start seeing steady sales" or "released first book! How do I get sales?" And with a few exceptions, most people just offer the same old advice of how to get sales without clicking on the book cover in the signature to see if the advice will do any good. It isn't a matter of craft discussions versus money discussions per se. It's a matter of before launching into a money discussion, maybe stop and see if the person you are about to give sales advice to even has a product ready for prime time.

The get-rich-quick self-publishing folks have been around forever. Vanity publishers built empires on the backs of starry-eyed authors because everyone thinks writing a book is easy and something anyone can do. I think as a mature community, we have an obligation to firmly guide new publishers down a professional path. And sometimes that might mean instead of telling someone to try Select, we should tell them to get an editor. Instead of telling someone how to get reviews, make sure they have a book worth sending out to reviewers to begin with. It saddens me sometimes when I see a bunch of "sales" advice given to a new publisher who has not even mastered the basic skills of writing. The blanket advice on how to sell without regard to the salability of the actual content perpetuates this notion that writing is easy and self-publishing is a golden ticket so long as you find the right marketing gimmick.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm probably in the minority here, but to be honest, if I wasn't making a living writing, I probably wouldn't be writing. I'd be working my tail off at two jobs trying to keep a roof over my family's head and food in their bellies. The first three books were exhausting for me, as I was still working full time (in my own business) 60+ hours/week barely getting by. I had an idea for a sci fi series that I had been kicking around for years. (After seeing a TV remote that looked like a spaceship to me.) When I learned about KDP, I decided to give it a shot. 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy writing immensely, but the financial realities of life don't always allow you to do what you want. Why do I pay more attention to sales? Why is that my driving force? Because I don't want to return to that awful grind doing something that I abhor. Besides that, I rather like having fans who dig my work. (Just dated myself with that "dig" didn't I?)


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

Wow, I go away for a few hours and the thread explodes! It's good to see a healthy discussion going on this topic.



Rykymus said:


> I aim for monetary success because it provides me the opportunity to write full time, as both my profession and my hobby. I see nothing wrong with wanting to make a living doing what you love.


I completely agree with you, sir, and see nothing wrong with this sort of approach. What worries me is that sometimes, the emphasis on money and sales gets to the point that it seems to become an end rather than a means. For me, making money is the means to writing stories full time, not the other way around. Sometimes, it seems that this community has a tendency to forget that.

Money is important--I'm not denying that at all--and all of us have a right to get paid fairly for our work. But money is (or should be) a means, not an end, and certainly not THE end.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

C.C. Kelly said:


> It's not the questions that bug me, it's the way they diminish the study of the craft and the long hours of dedication required to actually write decent stories. These threads always boil down to "how soon do I get rich?" - seemingly without a genuine concern for the writing part.


I think you've nailed it. My problem is not the emphasis on sales, but the OVER-emphasis on sales.

For me, Tracy Hickman is the role model--he's constantly talking about craft, constantly talking about story structure, and when he talks about his accomplishments, it's always about some way he's connected with a reader, like that story about the soldier at the VA signing who gave him his purple heart.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

How much has story structure changed since Gilgamesh?
How much has the marketplace changed since last year?

Which topic is best served via a face-to-face discussion and/or class?
Which topic can't wait for that?

B.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

KeithAllen said:


> I'm not sure that Joe was trying to make the Art vs. Commerce argument though. I read it that he was trying to point out that we need to consider connecting with readers and with the roots of why we write. Which I agree with. I don't think he was saying we should write for free or not try to make money. To me we will sell better if we do connect more with our audience and with why we write. A good story well marketed will outsell a poor story equally well marketed every time.


Exactly. I'm not saying that art and commerce are mutually exclusive, but I do think that there's a danger in losing sight of the non-monetary reasons why we write. Because if you lose sight of what's important, what do you do when you _do_ start to experience monetary success?

Again, I have no problems in getting together with you guys to discuss the business aspects of writing, including stuff like sales. That's what this forum was set up for, and it's certainly a great place to do it. But guys--sales aren't everything, or even the most important thing. That's all I'm saying.


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

In the immortal words of marriedtothesea.com...



One thing I find troubling about the art vs. commerce debate is that it's simply assumed (like in the question asked upthread) "If you could make all the money in the world writing trash, would you do it?" Why don't we start with "If you could make all the money in the world writing stuff you love, would you do it?" Well, yeah.

Sorry -- to me the art vs. commerce question is artist-shaming: "How DARE you ask for money for your work?" Which leads to the corollary "If you're making money from your work, you're writing trash."

I reject this dichotomy.


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## jasonzc (Dec 23, 2011)

What I like about Kindleboards is that most people here already know how to write well. Getting your books into the hands of readers in an entirely different skill set. And once you have a catalog, that becomes the emphasis. This is where I come to learn how to market well. 

I'm probably a snob or something, but I'm not sure you can teach people how to write. You can offer criticism, and show them ways to improve, but it's largely personal. Marketing is a skill that can be learned. 

Validation comes through readership. Without marketing, you have no readership. In that case, why write at all?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> There have been so many threads recently that go something like "How long until I start seeing steady sales" or "released first book! How do I get sales?" And with a few exceptions, most people just offer the same old advice of how to get sales without clicking on the book cover in the signature to see if the advice will do any good. It isn't a matter of craft discussions versus money discussions per se. It's a matter of before launching into a money discussion, maybe stop and see if the person you are about to give sales advice to even has a product ready for prime time.


I generally avoid such threads, but if I read them, I'd probably prefer giving generic advice than saying, "Your writing is poor and your cover is amateurish." Admittedly that may be the advice the person needs to hear, but it's not what they're asking, and offering such advice publicly could possibly bring down the wrath of the mods. Also, it could be that people are responding with polite generic advice in public, while PMing people who need additional advice privately. There's really no way to tell.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

Buttonman88 said:


> I think Joe's original concern was the rise in soaring success stories being posted here on the Boards, along with posts about the monetary gains that a few lucky KBaorders enjoy because of them (how to get it, how to grow it, how to spend it etc). There have been quite a few posts lately in that realm, the nature of which applies only to a select few on here and to which most of us have no contribution to make ("Have you sales of 10000 or more? Post here" - Me, no - and "What have you bought with your KDP earnings? Tell us!" - Me, a pack or two of smokes).


Not exactly. There have been soaring success stories bantered about on these boards since Amanda Hocking and John Locke. Those did a lot to inspire me when I was first starting out, and making a living at this was a pie-in-the-sky dream.

If anything, I started this thread for the exact opposite reason--I've started to experience a fair degree of monetary success (at least for my current economic situation), and making a full-time living at this is actually within my grasp. And exactly for that reason, all this emphasis on sales now seems a bit empty.

I just want to point out that money is not the only thing we ought to be striving for. There's got to be a higher goal, a higher dream to strive for--at least for an artist like me.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Wow, I go away for a few hours and the thread explodes! It's good to see a healthy discussion going on this topic.
> 
> I completely agree with you, sir, and see nothing wrong with this sort of approach. What worries me is that sometimes, the emphasis on money and sales gets to the point that it seems to become an end rather than a means. For me, making money is the means to writing stories full time, not the other way around. Sometimes, it seems that this community has a tendency to forget that.
> 
> Money is important--I'm not denying that at all--and all of us have a right to get paid fairly for our work. But money is (or should be) a means, not an end, and certainly not THE end.


Well, suppose an author wants to make money so he can buy a new car? He's not doing it so he can write more, but doing it so he can get that new Lexus SUV or send the kid to engineering school. Zillions of people work so they can get money to buy stuff. Why expect writers to be different? I wish them all luck regardless of their motivation, and I hope none of them pay any attention to what I think they ought to do, and why they ought to do it.



> Julie has it right, in my opinion. Books are not interchangeable widgets. Partly due to individual quality, but also the genres are different, therefore certain business fundamentals are different. While it's the same industry, there are product (book) specific considerations relative to promotions


.

The interchangeable aspect of a book depends on the consumer. A consumer browsing for something to read on the NY/LA flight might see thousands of books as interchangeable. Thousands of books will meet his need. They are interchangeable. We can easily highlight the unique nature of each book, but the need of the consumer defines them all as interchangeable.

But for the student who needs Catcher In The Rye, only one book meets his needs. Interchangeability isn't a factor. There are no substitutes.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> Admittedly that may be the advice the person needs to hear, but it's not what they're asking, and offering such advice publicly could possibly bring down the wrath of the mods.


I have never seen the mods bring down their wrath for giving honest constructive criticism.

For the way some people respond to criticism, sure. But never for honest criticism itself.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I just want to point out that money is not the only thing we ought to be striving for. There's got to be a higher goal, a higher dream to strive for--at least for an artist like me.


Well, I'm no artist, just a hack writer (and proud of it). But I write because I love to write, and I write what I love reading (some of us do like romance and erotic romance, and don't write it just because it sells, a point I make because one occasionally sees posts suggesting that anyone writing hot stuff must be doing it more or less exclusively for the money ). My dream is having lots of people read my books and love them. This is not a solely mercenary dream-- I want to connect with my readers and to touch them. Of course, if I do it well enough, eventually I may make enough to pay all that tuition too, which would be a nice thing as well. Dreams come in all shapes and sizes, I suppose. 



> I have never seen the mods bring down their wrath for giving honest constructive criticism.


I guess it's a matter of what the poster is asking for. If someone asks, "How do I market my first book on Facebook and blogs?" then it may be inappropriate to say, "Before you think about that, your book needs editing and a new cover." If they ask a more generic question ("Why aren't I getting sales?") then I would say that is a valid response. It just depends, I suppose.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Nathan: I don't know any successful filmmakers. Meaning filmmakers who are earning good money from making films. I have a screenwriter buddy who is one of the top guys now in Hollywood, and we don't discuss the fine points of screenwriting. We discuss who got what deal and who is working with whom, and what story sold for how much. I know I spent a drunken evening with a couple of the top producers in the biz, and all they discussed was the biz end, not the creative end. Perhaps when bigtime director A gets together with bigtime director B, they discuss camera angles and composition, etc. I just don't know. I do know that whenever I'm talking with big time authors, they discuss the business side of it, not the craft side. For whatever that's worth.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> Money can buy happiness?


Money = quitting my day job = writing full time

I'm beyond happy. I'm ecstatic.

No, money cannot make a person choosing to be miserable happy, however, money takes away a lot of worry and provides a lot of choice. I would imagine most artists are happier when they're not worried about living under a bridge.


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

Sales equates to the number of people reading your work. So I'm concerned at that level.  And money is nice, but I don't write for money.  But I want more readers.  If my books aren't selling because people don't like what I'm writing; I can live with that.  I write what I want to reveal about the world as I see it and also myself.  I'm at a point in my life where I won't write 'what's selling' or what's hot.  I think I need to market more and better.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

The problem is two-fold, imho.

1.) Money is easy to talk about -- and easy to LEARN about. It's quick. The most green beginner in the world can get up to speed to hold a conversation with an old pro in a very short time.

Which leads me to the other problem:

2.) This is a large group, and extremely varied.  The only thing we can easily talk about -- the thing we have in common in terms of experience and interest -- is money. With craft discussions, if you keep it at a level the beginners understand, the pros get mightily bored, and if you talk about it at a more advanced level you not only leave out the beginners, but a few of them will misunderstand and get upset or work hard to push the conversation in a direction that's more useful to them.

I left this group for a while out of frustration at a small minority of folks who made a point of hijacking other people's conversations about craft. I don't think it was intentional. (And I think most of those folks have moved on or simply matured to the point where they "get" it.)

This doesn't seem to be a problem any more (the hijacking of craft conversations) but there will always be a differential that makes it easier to get a really good, solid long-lasting conversation going about money than about craft.

Camille


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I sometimes wonder if I fit here myself. Yes, I want to make money. But, honestly, not at the expense of writing what I love. While some people may just love to write, no matter what they write, I don't. There have been many posts on here about "if you want to make money you'll study what genres are popular and write them" and "you need to go free with your work to you can see success as quickly as possible".

Look, those ideas do have merit. But, not if the writer doesn't write for the love of writing in general. If I have to write in a genre that's popular but I hate, I would much rather go back into advertising. I can make a boatload of money there again. I'm tired of working at something that is not my passion just so I can look at a large paycheck. I don't write for the love of writing. I write for the love of storytelling. Stories that I am passionate about. For me it is first and foremost an art. After dong that art I want to profit from it, but it will always be about finding a way to profit from art I love to do.

Would I like to make an actual living at writing? Sure, IF I can continue to write books that I am passionate about. There are some genres I find intensely dull. I don't get a big kick out of writing a great book in those genres.

I want to build a strong reader base. *That's what I want to learn how to do.*I want people to expect a certain kind of book when they see my name on it. I am hoping that we don't run out of money before that happens. But, da*n if I have to write stuff that bores me just to make it a success it's doubtful I will keep at it. I may try it. I go back and forth about writing erotica with a pen name to put some money in the account. (And, no, I don't think it's an automatic way to make money, but I do feel I could write it.) The only trouble is, it BORES me. I've read too much of it in my day, written it for fun and, frankly, without drama, angst, and a main plot that isn't just sex I don't know if I would end up feeling like my time was a waste, just like when I was in advertising. I don't mean others who write it are wasting their time, just like I don't think math teachers are wasting their time. But I would never be a math teacher because - guess what- it BORES me. I used to say we are all whores if we don't do what we love (not just in writing). Any time we don't something we love, we are whoring out our mind, etc.

It does sometimes get discouraging to read all the posts about how to see success as quickly as possible, and the writers who see anything but a 4 or 5 star review as less than acceptable. No, not all of us on here see 3 stars or less as the end of the world. Just yesterday at our writers group one member was saying how awful anything less than 4 stars is because you can't be successful with anything less. Really? What about all the best sellers with tons of 3, 2, and 1 stars?

I'm also not saying I might not have to eventually try a whole book being free. But I'm not going to automatically give away a 148,000 word book free without trying other things first. Sometimes doing what everyone else does makes you blend in and get lost. So, who knows what I'll do in six months?

It does feel like a writer is bucking the trend if they want to price their books fairly, write genres that aren't the current all-stars, and try to build. More power to those that make money more important than writing a certain genre, nothing wrong with that, but sometimes I wonder how many feel passion about their work and don't just look at it as "This is written well so that it sells in the current "in" genre.

Who knows what the next popular genre will be? Maybe I'll get lucky and have a series in that genre when it catches on fire. One thing I do now is I don't want to simply write in genres I don't like because people buy them this week, only to see in six months that not only am I writing something that bores me, the reader has moved on to a genre I love, but none of my work is there!

In the meantime, I try to remember we are all on a different journey. I get valuable information here that I can apply, the information I don't feel fits me I ignore or file away for later if I change my mind. And, I love a lot of the people here. Regardless of what genre they write, or what their endgame is, there are many fabulous people here and I enjoy them.

I get that many people want the money more than anything and work toward that goal exclusively, much like having a different job. I'm just not willing to work at anything I'm not driven to anymore. I spent too many years doing that, I won't do it again unless it's that or starving.  That said, some days erotica sounds da*m tasty.


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

For me, being paid for my writing verifies to me that there is a value to my writing. Without it, I'm kind of left guessing, thinking I'm good but who really knows? The fact that there are people out there who are eager to read something I write tells me that I'm a professional and that my writing has worth, rather than just being interesting to my own self.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> ...I think as a mature community, we have an obligation to firmly guide new publishers down a professional path. And sometimes that might mean instead of telling someone to try Select, we should tell them to get an editor. Instead of telling someone how to get reviews, make sure they have a book worth sending out to reviewers to begin with...


I think you're on to something.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

blakebooks said:


> Nathan: I don't know any successful filmmakers. Meaning filmmakers who are earning good money from making films. I have a screenwriter buddy who is one of the top guys now in Hollywood, and we don't discuss the fine points of screenwriting. We discuss who got what deal and who is working with whom, and what story sold for how much. I know I spent a drunken evening with a couple of the top producers in the biz, and all they discussed was the biz end, not the creative end. Perhaps when bigtime director A gets together with bigtime director B, they discuss camera angles and composition, etc. I just don't know. I do know that whenever I'm talking with big time authors, they discuss the business side of it, not the craft side. For whatever that's worth.


Yep. I know a lot of aspiring screenwriters/etc. They like to watch movies and buy movies on Blue-Ray and watch them again!

And that's fun for them.

It's really rare to find bestselling authors who haven't embraced the business side. Some people may have an "aw shucks, i dunno what dun-dere happened" about their NYT bestsellers. To that, I say Applesauce. Applesauce with a side of More Applesauce.

Watch the Facebook feeds of the bestsellers and you'll see things.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have never seen the mods bring down their wrath for giving honest constructive criticism.
> 
> For the way some people respond to criticism, sure. But never for honest criticism itself.


I would love to see more honest criticism on the board, but unsolicited criticism is definitely frowned on by the mods.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> Money can buy happiness?


Money can diminish the despair that comes from not having enough to buy food, pay the bills and basic necessities needed for survival.

So yes, it sure can *bring happiness by taking away the bad*.

If you are aiming for higher-level existential happiness, then of course money is irrelevant.

But, believe it or not, there are so many of us who would settle for the basic happiness that comes from no worry, while the other kind of "higher" happiness we can... well, "take it from there."


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

DDark said:


> Never judge a book by its movie.


God, isn't that the truth!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> My opinion is yes and no. Some books can be interchangeable, mainstream thrillers have broad appeal for example. But for many readers, their needs are narrowly defined. Many readers are genre specific and how you write, plot and pace romance is not necessarily how you would go about the same in science fiction. Promotions are definitely different, if for no other reason than 'where' you promote them. Readers in different genres respond to serials and series differently.


Sure. Each consumer defines her set of interchangeable books according to her needs. Each member of those sets is unique, but they are members of the sets because the consumer says they are. Some sets are large, and some are small. There are a zillion ways the consumer can define the set of interchangeable books. Look at the aggregate of all consumer sets, and we have a huge set of books that are interchangeable with at least one other book. But we can't define individual consumer needs, and uniqueness of books doesnt keep them out of those consumer sets.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I think you've nailed it. My problem is not the emphasis on sales, but the OVER-emphasis on sales.
> 
> For me, Tracy Hickman is the role model--he's constantly talking about craft, constantly talking about story structure, and when he talks about his accomplishments, it's always about some way he's connected with a reader, like that story about the soldier at the VA signing who gave him his purple heart.


Joe, believe me, I really really like/agree with the idea at the heart of what you are saying. And yes, quality work is what we all should strive to create, as a given.

But, as some people have already said, many of us are also mature writers. We've learned the ropes, and we survived the last couple of decades of traditional and small press publishing, in some cases coming out burned and limping, to put it kindly.

Yes, I used to talk tons about craft... But that was back in the 90s when I was a new writer.

Now my focus is *selling* my highly-crafted, critically acclaimed work. It's why I come to Kboards. And why I hardly ever click on craft threads.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

Joe, I was pondering this very thing last last night.
I'll tell you what caused that train of thought .... a set of werewolf erotica books.


Spoiler



(don't judge me!)


There's an author with a set of werewolf books, released very recently and she has set all of them free. And she has a huge amount of reviews and a good rating. I was curious and looked her up - Nicky Charles. She said on her blog that she doesn't need the money but loves to write and wanted to share her writing with others.

With her large following, she could easily write another book in the series and make a ton of cash. But so far, she isn't doing that.
It made me wonder how many other people are writing books just for the love of it and don't need the income/are not as interested in the income as they are in readership. And that's yet another thing that is great about indie publishing - freedom in publishing. There's no way that books like Nicky's would get out there in mainstream publishing because its not economically viable to release books for free.



Spoiler



Ok, so I admit that I wasn't really looking up werewolf erotica. I received a review from someone so far out of my target market it's a wonder that person bothered reading my book - the only other book they've reviewed is a werewolf erotica book. Which is how I found that author and her books. Seems that werewolf erotica, and its associated mating and breeding subjects, is huge.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

One other point in defense of this place for craft discussions:

You know, one thing I've noticed since I came back is that a lot of discussion of business is ALSO a discussion of craft now.  Sometimes it's subtle, but it's there.

When we talk about how some genres make more money, and some are hard to sell, or how some genres you can charge a higher price for than others... we're talking about content.  These conversations often dip down into why audiences respond a certain way, not all the way through, but here and there so it's easy to miss.

But when people make an observation, say in a conversation about which genres can command higher prices for short works, that erotica has a "payoff" scene every few pages, and therefore often feels like a longer story -- that's a craft discussion.  That translates to literary writers and to anyone else.  It's about what makes a short form story more fulfilling.  Even though even though the conversation is overtly about dirty stories and money.

When we're talking about building a reader base or branding, we're not always talking about marketing or packaging, we're often talking about building a writer voice and identity.  For that matter many conversations about using pen names go to that too.

The thing is, you don't see this if you aren't a part of the larger conversation. And sometimes that larger conversation has too much noise in it to be useful, but the big conversation here IS maturing and becoming more useful.

Camille


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> So for writers that have 'the writing thing in hand' and yet don't have the sales they would like - perhaps these writers don't have the writing thing down as much as they think they do. The prose may be wonderful, but the stories might be lacking in some respect than isn't resonating. Pick whatever term you would like to use for it, but it is this 'resonance' that sells sh*tloads of books.


But perhaps, they really, truly, genuinely, horridly, have just had rotten luck.

Things like foreclosure, bankruptcy, business crashing, cancer, death in the family, and other plagues, all in the span of a few years.

And without money for basics, as I write in my essay *The Ultimate Secret of Book Promotion*, it's almost impossible to have a writing "career," regardless of quality or talent.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "But we can. It's called market segmentation. Everyone likes to think themselves unique, but we are not, especially when viewed in the aggregate. The majority of romance readers, or science fiction readers or whatever genre you want to discuss, share demographic characteristics and therefore purchase behavior. By isolating the key market triggers, one can improve sales. By identifying and satisfying the cross-over buying characteristics, one can improve sales across a broader audience. The trick with books is that the voice of the author is crucial - does the story or characters resonate? This is harder to predict. But we see writers attempting to tap into this routinely, whether it is Twilight rip-offs or 50 Shades redos."


I agree one can study a market and define segments. That's studying the market from the outside. It works fine. And I agree that can improve sales. That's a macro exercise.

But we can't define any individual consumer's set of interchangeable books for her. A consumer's set of interchangeables can intersect with multiple segments. The individual consumer's definition of interchangeables is a micro exercise. It can coexist with the macro segments.

I'd agree that the aggregate of all those individual consumer sets is a powerful influence on the segments you describe. And I'd note both the market segments and the consumer sets of interchangeables ignore each individual book's uniqueness.


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## nikkarina (Jan 15, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I'm not so sure they're equal, though. Money comes and goes, but stories can change lives forever.


 I agree with you. I've only made about $50 off my first novel so far, but I have had a good amount of readers express how much they could relate to the story and how it moved them to tears. And in my head, sure, anyone can make money, but I made someone I've never even met before cry from my words. That means a whole lot to me and it's priceless. However, money would be nice... just enough to get by.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

I don't consider myself an artist. I'm a story teller. I write my stories in the form of a novel because it's the most likely way for me to make a living developing and telling my stories. If I had the money and expertise to make movies, I might be inclined to tell my stories that way.

I don't really think that the lack of focus on craft on this board is indicative of any kind of a disturbing trend. Rather, I believe that most of the people on here already have a pretty good understanding of their craft. Also, there are so many places online to discuss the craft of writing, yet very few to discuss the craft of career, marketing, and publishing. As Justin pointed out, the craft changes slowly, but the new digital marketplace changes rapidly and thus requires more attention in order to stay current. Once I know how to write a sentence, I don't need to talk about how to write a sentence. I do need to keep checking on how to sell my work.

It's just a matter of one requiring a greater amount of continuing education than the other.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "I don't consider myself an artist."


I know I'm a guy who wrote a book. I can't think of anyone who gives a hoot if I'm an artist. I sure don't.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Most of us (including me) have aspirations to turn this writing gig into our main careers and quit or scale back on the day job(s). I think those goals are laudable, and I hope that most if not all of us are able to make it. However, I wonder if in our enthusiasm to build our careers, we're putting too much emphasis on monetary measures of success, like sales, and not enough emphasis on building connections with readers, writing meaningful stories, or reconnecting with the things that made us write in the first place.
> 
> Sales and income are certainly important, but I cannot believe that they are the most important thing. They're certainly not the reasons I started writing in the first place. And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.


Sales and income are the best way of measuring one's progress and effectiveness in the other elements you laud, though, Joe.

Does building connections with readers automatically result in enough income to quit/scale back a day job? No: that's measured by income and sales.

However, if one is sitting in their home office thinking "I'm connecting with readers quite well, thank you," and they are selling only 5-10 copies of anything in a given month, that tells them something: "You're NOT connecting with readers as well as you think, O Writer My Writer, you!" 

It's all interconnected. One must write quality stories that touch readers' hearts. One must study the craft of writing and strive to always improve. One must connect with readers.

If one doesn't do all these things, and do them with consistency, any temporary sales success will evaporate over time, unrefreshed.

Sales and income are talked about because they're a way of measuring one's progress in all those areas... because the more you succeed in improving your craft, telling great stories, and connecting with readers, the more you'll see sales results...

I mean, if not through sales and income, how would you measure your effectiveness at connecting with readers? At telling heart-touching stories?

It all works together to lead to the same destination. Neglect any of the elements necessary and the sales and income will eventually evaporate.

So, that's my two-cents on it. Each element needs the other. One can discuss them separately, but in most other ways, they're too interconnected.

We have plenty of threads around here that are about craft.

And those of us who venture out into the Greater Kindleboards Areas outside the Writer's Cafe, can improve our ability to connect with readers with just a LITTLE extra effort...


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> I don't consider myself an artist. I'm a story teller.


Regardless, if you write good stories you are an artist. Your tools are words instead of paints, but you create something in a field that is considered an art or a talent. You don't run a manufacturing plant of words so much as you create a picture through words.

It's nothing snobby or highbrow. It just happens that good storytelling IS an art, regardless of if you or any other author cares if people see them that way.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have never seen the mods bring down their wrath for giving honest constructive criticism.
> 
> For the way some people respond to criticism, sure. But never for honest criticism itself.





Monique said:


> I would love to see more honest criticism on the board, but unsolicited criticism is definitely frowned on by the mods.


This. . . . I understand where you both are coming from. I often see threads where the person is asking how to get sales or, more likely, why isn't their book selling, and I look at the cover and open the 'see inside' and think "ye gods".  I zip my keyboard, as it were, and move on because I KNOW they don't want me to say, "Well, first you need to get a real cover. No, first you need to write a readable book -- there are obvious errors of grammar/spelling/usage/punctuation -- in the sample which will turn buyers off."

From the very beginnings of KBoards -- back when it still had that trademark word in the name -- if that sort of response was given, the person asking often got really REALLY upset. Mind you, sometimes the 'advice' was not given in a very courteous manner. But there were plenty who got highly upset even with people that were really trying to be supportive and helpful.

So, at this point, we watch those kind of threads very closely. Sometimes helpful advice about the book content is provided and the OP takes it to heart. But as soon as the poster makes it clear that's NOT what they want to hear we're going to cut off that kind of commentary because it does no good to try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Now, I will say, I think most of you all really do want to be helpful. . . . .you aren't picking on people just because it's fun and you're a bunch of jerks. You're trying to help them improve. And that's great! But some of you don't seem to know when to just let it go because the person is not ready to hear you.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> True. But like the old joke says, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice, practice, practice."
> Point being, even with all the obstacles, if you keep chipping away, eventually you might get there and have success - lots of sales (for what we're discussing). There are no guarantees, but generally speaking - the better you take care of your audience, the more they will reward you with sales.


Yes, but my point is, that's a *given*. Or at least it should be. Practice, practice, pracitce. Like prayer, best done in solitude and in secret... 

Professional writers practice all the time, in the privacy of their own workspaces. We don't really need to talk about it. (We could, sure, but we don't need to.)

Many of us come here mostly for tips on how to increase our sales. And that's why it might seem that's all we care about. In reality we care about so many other things (including high craft and art), but here, we come to talk business.

But maybe that's just me.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm not sure where people are getting that this discussion is somehow an appeal for less business-centric threads and more craft-centric threads.  That's not my intention at all.

As for the artist vs. storyteller bit, story is art, so a good storyteller is also a good artist.  Maybe not a beret-wearing wine-sipping artiste of the snobbish variety, but writing is not just a business, and not just a craft.  It's also an art.

And I'm not so sure that sales are the best way to measure the fuzzy intangibles.  Some of the most life-changing books I've ever read, I got from used bookstores or checked out from the library.  And before you start with all the "yes, but" arguments for how money eventually made its way from my pocket to the author's, allow me to point out that just as much of my money has gone towards "meh" books that I've since forgotten.  And my experience is far from unique.

Using sales as an indicator of writerly success is like looking solely at the stock market as the sole indicator of economic health.  Yes, it's a lot more easily measurable and quantifiable than other figures, but it doesn't show the whole picture, or even the most important part of the picture.


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## Alan Simon (Jul 2, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Sales and income are certainly important, but I cannot believe that they are the most important thing. They're certainly not the reasons I started writing in the first place. And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.


To me it's a straightforward numbers game re: focusing on sales, setting my sights on writing full-time, etc. To your point and those made by others, I like to think of myself as a writer and teller of stories, many of them with some sort of relevant or even "important" themes related through the characters. Okay...so every year that I've had to and further still need to do my day job as a management/technology consultant, there's 2,000 or so work hours that I'm not writing one of the many books on my to-be-written list. Not to mention many more hours spent decompressing from heavy travel, heavy stress, etc. when I'm in no frame of mind to string two coherent sentences together.

So it's a simple equation: the quest for sales and income to be able to write full-time isn't only about, well, writing full-time, it's about gaining back 2,000 hours/year - 20,000 hours/decade - by not having to do something else so I can tell that many more stories by publishing that many more books. Basic opportunity cost math. And any edge I can pick up here on KBoards from what others have done that gets me closer to that goal is of intense interest to me...and no doubt, for similar reasons, to others.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Using sales as an indicator of writerly success is like looking solely at the stock market as the sole indicator of economic health. "


Since each writer is an individual, I'd say it's like looking at the relative health of an individual's portfolio.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Since each writer is an individual, I'd say it's like looking at the relative health of an individual's portfolio.


Yes ... using the relative health of their stock portfolio to measure their success as human beings.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> I hope I'm not misrepresenting myself here. I definitely study the sales threads, sometimes for inspiration and sometimes for literal step by step procedures. ElHawks' goodreads thread was great. Holly W. also did a great step by step thread recently.


Yes, and the affiliate thread was great, too. I do enjoy many of these helpful threads. I hope I didn't sound like I disliked them.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Vera Nazarian said:


> Professional writers practice all the time, in the privacy of their own workspaces. We don't really need to talk about it. (We could, sure, but we don't need to.)


Well, let's be fair, though: professional writers DO talk about craft. We talk about it all the time on sff.net and other places writers gather. And yeah, we talk about other things too, and there is no particular drive talk about craft -- but we do. We just don't talk about it as in a class. We talk about what we're doing, and about our characters, about new things we're trying. We don't tend to get into arguments about adverbs or whether to use a prologue or not -- but we might talk about struggling with a difficult point of view or just share something that jazzed us about that morning's writing session.

That was a culture shock when I came here, because people here did not do that. At all. It was nothing like any other group of professional writers I'd ever been in. I've come to realize that a lot of people here do that in other venues. (Particularly on blogs and Twitter that I've noticed.) Part of the reason, I suppose is that some of pros who come here get their more personal writer chat someplace else, and they really do just come here to harvest information about business.

I notice, however, that as the beginners here matured (especially those from outside traditional publishing) the casual conversation about craft has increased a lot.

Camille


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

MegHarris said:


> I generally avoid such threads, but if I read them, I'd probably prefer giving generic advice than saying, "Your writing is poor and your cover is amateurish." Admittedly that may be the advice the person needs to hear, but it's not what they're asking, and offering such advice publicly could possibly bring down the wrath of the mods.





Monique said:


> I would love to see more honest criticism on the board, but unsolicited criticism is definitely frowned on by the mods.


I know Ann already weighed in on this, and I agree with her, but here's more specifically where I'm coming from as a mod on this issue.

If someone asks for critique on their cover/blurb/etc, I think people should be honest. The requester may or may not respond well, but, hey, they asked for it. If someone actually asks "why is my book not selling?" I don't see critique as unsolicited, even if they didn't specifically ask about their cover or blurb.

But if someone is asking a different question, or replying to someone else's post, starting a critique of their cover or blurb, when they didn't ask for it, is a no-no as far as our culture here. While we do have members who can shrug it off, we have others who can't. And then it doesn't go well.

If you're not sure if someone wants critique, ask... "Are you looking for critique?" As my therapist friend says, "It's healthy to ask people what they want." 

As far as discussions here...if you don't see the discussion you want to have, start it. If there are other members who are interested in it, they'll reply.

Unwrathfully, 

Betsy


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Yes ... using the relative health of their stock portfolio to measure their success as human beings.


No. To track the progress toward their goals. I don't have standing to define another author's success as a human being.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm all about the money. After 25 books, it there wasn't something in it for me, I'd go back to playing games and reading full time. I work harder and longer hours now than I did before I retired.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

Shawn Inmon said:


> I don't see the issue. For me, connecting with readers and making sales go hand in hand.
> 
> I focus a lot on sales and promotions, but I'll post my Facebook page link. Take a look and see if I'm connecting with them or not.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/shawninmonwriter


I'd say that Shawn is more interactive with his fans that anyone I've seen before. Naturally, I'm a fan of his work and I follow his page. He's always got a new way to connect with his loyal fans and brighten up someone's day.

I would agree that the two things go hand in hand. Unfortunately, while I have already had one successful book, I have still not managed to gain many devoted fans. I'd love to get there someday.


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## LG Castillo (Jun 28, 2012)

JanneCO said:


> I just announced two winners today - both are international! LOL... "Yeah, sure, I'll make it international! What's the chance I'll actually choose someone from SWEDEN?" Yup - sending paperbacks to Sweden this week.


LOL! I thought the same way when I made my goodreads givewaya international. Will see what happens when it ends tomorrow.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Well, let's be fair, though: professional writers DO talk about craft. We talk about it all the time on sff.net and other places writers gather. And yeah, we talk about other things too, and there is no particular drive talk about craft -- but we do. We just don't talk about it as in a class. We talk about what we're doing, and about our characters, about new things we're trying. We don't tend to get into arguments about adverbs or whether to use a prologue or not -- but we might talk about struggling with a difficult point of view or just share something that jazzed us about that morning's writing session.
> 
> That was a culture shock when I came here, because people here did not do that. At all. It was nothing like any other group of professional writers I'd ever been in. I've come to realize that a lot of people here do that in other venues. (Particularly on blogs and Twitter that I've noticed.) Part of the reason, I suppose is that some of pros who come here get their more personal writer chat someplace else, and they really do just come here to harvest information about business.
> 
> ...


Camille, then you especially -- knowing that I am from SFF Net and have done my share of talking craft in the public and private SFWA newsgroups all through the 90s, would understand why I come here *NOT* to talk craft.

Kboards for me is serious hardcore business, the most immediate urgent kind, since *my only source of income* these days is publishing. And business is selling, promotion, marketing, Amazon algos, the latest and greatest tips and tricks.

If I don't move units, I don't buy food for my 80-year-old mother, myself, and our 3 cats.

This is life and death.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I know Ann already weighed in on this, and I agree with her, but here's more specifically where I'm coming from as a mod on this issue.
> 
> If someone asks for critique on their cover/blurb/etc, I think people should be honest. The requester may or may not respond well, but, hey, they asked for it. If someone actually asks "why is my book not selling?" I don't see critique as unsolicited, even if they didn't specifically ask about their cover or blurb.
> 
> ...


As someone who has occasionally posted something (a cover for example  ) just to say "look at this" only to receive unwanted criticism, I think I have learned it needs to go both ways, or it helps anyway. If I don't want criticism, I have finally learned to say so up front. Otherwise people tend to assume, understandably, that you do.

The criticism here tends to be very helpful though. It is rarely tearing something down just for the fun of it and I've run into THAT on plenty of other forums.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Vera:

But I don't think anybody here is saying we shouldn't be talking business. (Heck writers talk business everywhere.) I also think that the comments about maybe some people needing to pay more attention to craft than they think is not aimed at you.

The complaint was that the group as a whole has an unusual lack of interest in writing talk -- and that is true, this group is unusual. I dismiss the idea that it's because we're all seasoned pros who don't need to talk writing -- our experience with other groups of seasoned pros proves that one false.

I think, though, that your point -- the one that I think we're missing -- is that it's perfectly valid for individuals (of all levels of expertise) to be here for only a specific purpose. That doesn't mean that's all that matters to them. That just means that's why they're here (as opposed to someplace else).

Even beginners: there's NO reason for a beginner to come here to learn craft. There are better places for that. It is reasonable for a beginner to come here only for the business too.

To add something on that note: an awful lot of what gets talked here about the business side is smoke and mirrors. The truth is, _what_ you write is more important than how you market it. If you come here for the sake of learning to make money, then certain elements of craft are critical to that. (As I mentioned above about the conversations on genres and forms that attract audiences and such.) I have seen a lot more recognition of that since I've come back over what I used to see.

Camille


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> No. To track the progress toward their goals. I don't have standing to define another author's success as a human being.


That's not what I'm talking about then.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JRTomlin said:


> As someone who has occasionally posted something (a cover for example  ) just to say "look at this" only to receive unwanted criticism,


*blushes and waves* Guilty!



> I think I have learned it needs to go both ways, or it helps anyway. If I don't want criticism, I have finally learned to say so up front. Otherwise people tend to assume, understandably, that you do.
> 
> The criticism here tends to be very helpful though. It is rarely tearing something down just for the fun of it and I've run into THAT on plenty of other forums.


I love our membership, and they're mostly very good and helpful. I've seen a few snarky rips of someone's work though, just as a way to attack a poster...which is NOT the KBoards way and part of the reason we ask that people not give unsolicited critique. People who do that seldom last long here, though.

Betsy


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

DDark said:


> How does one get a fan?
> 
> Sales.


By writing a good book.


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## Jason Eric Pryor (Jan 30, 2013)

I wouldn't say I'm all about the money. I'm interested in building relationships too. But, I can't pay the bills with relationships.

Honestly, anyone that is writing, whether they're getting paid or not, is doing it because they love it. There are far easier ways to make money than writing. No one would put themselves through the trials and tribulations of writing a book if all they were interested in was getting paid. The love of the craft has to be there in the first place. Obviously, I'm not talking about the people looking to get rich quick and thinking they can do it by publishing 10 pages of stolen blog posts. Those people tend to disappear from the writing scene pretty quick. I think the serious writers that are money driven are pushed to write the best books they can. They know that, if they want to get paid, they better put out a great product.

Here's an example. I work at a shipyard in the engineering department. Rarely do you hear anyone talking about their love of welding techniques or which is their favorite between hot-rolled and cold-rolled steel. We work to get paid. If two different shipyards offer me the same job, and one is paying me more, guess where I'm going.

I guess what I'm saying is that there may not be a lot of threads here about the love and craft of writing, but there's a lot more than you think when you compare it to other professions. To be completely honest, that's one of the things I find refreshing about this place. There are so many forums online that talk about writing in terms of characters, plot, pacing, genre, etc. Talking about the business side of it is what makes this place unique.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> That was a culture shock when I came here, because people here did not do that. At all. It was nothing like any other group of professional writers I'd ever been in.


That's because this is a group of *publishers* that often refer to themselves as authors (as in: "The author should be able to put whatever they want on the cover.")


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

This thread:


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> The complaint was that the group as a whole has an unusual lack of interest in writing talk -- and that is true, this group is unusual. I dismiss the idea that it's because we're all seasoned pros who don't need to talk writing -- our experience with other groups of seasoned pros proves that one false.
> 
> Camille


Camille,

I think I suddenly have one possible answer to the above.

Someone (Bruce?) correctly pointed out that when pros get together, they only or mostly talk business (my experience too, just take a look at the conversation a pro party at Worldcon).

You mention that it is unusual, and in addition, not everyone here is a pro...

Yes, but...

Put the two together with the fact that this place is UNIQUE.

You might say this is where "the hottest publishing sausage gets made..." entirely in public view. And I am not talking about "book crafting sausage" (or that suspicious sausage on the season finale of The Game of Thrones, eeeow).

I am talking about *career sausage.* The stuff of bestsellerdom and publishing success.

It's here, folks... IT'S ALL HERE.

I know. And I've been in all kinds of publishing environments, public and private. BEA, Worldcon Hugo Loser parties, private pro-only listserves, etc., etc.

In one way or another, over the last few years of becoming, Kboards has arrived, and now it is *IT.*

It is now THE most exciting innovative and hot business place to be for publishing.

And even those who are not seasoned pros (yet) can feel it.

As a result, the unique hardcore-make-it-happen-now business level of rhetoric here *invites newbies to naturally begin to think like pros*.

That's why sales, promotion and units sold, perma-free and Select, and algos and Amazon rank drives the conversation. Because this is here and now, the vanguard of New Publishing.

Newbies and pros alike come here, leaving their craft concerns at the door, to gawk at the *process of crafting success*.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

NathanWrann said:


> That's because this is a group of *publishers* that often refer to themselves as authors (as in: "The author should be able to put whatever they want on the cover.")


Nope, some of us are just both


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.


I'm not sure what's giving you a view into people's hearts, and making a determination of what matters most to them, based on some posts they made here.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

When I say that I don't see myself as an artist, what I mean is that I don't write with the intention of making art. I write with the intention of entertaining my customers and therefore continuing with a financially beneficial level of sales on which my family can live. I started writing to make money, plain and simple. Turns out I enjoy this line of work. All the better. But I do it for the money, not to make emotional connections with people I do not and probably will never know. And I'm pretty sure most of them are not buying my books in order to make a connection with me. (Frankly, I'm not that interesting.)

I'm not a writer. I'm not an artist. I'm a businessman, and I'm here to make a living. I apologize if I'm enjoying myself doing it.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "I'm not a writer. I'm not an artist. I'm a businessman, and I'm here to make a living. I apologize if I'm enjoying myself doing it."


God Bless the free market. Ain't this a great country?


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

You make some good points, Joe.  I would love to see more craft threads and more threads on finding readers, too (though really, finding readers does kind of have the end result of increasing sales...)

I really wish the board itself had a different format.  Topics roll off to quickly and get lost.  A forum set up more in the style of the dreaded AW, where subforums stay static and are much easier to browse, would be welcome.  I think it would facilitate richer discussion.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

DDark said:


> Yes, but you can't that great book noticed without selling it to them first.


Sales without a great book do not make fans.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Rykymus said:


> I'm probably in the minority here, but to be honest, if I wasn't making a living writing, I probably wouldn't be writing.


I'm a card-carrying member of the same minority, no probably for me. When I decided traditional publishing wasn't for me, I stopped writing for years until KDP opened up new horizons. Spending massive amounts of time producing publishable stories that don't earn their way isn't a choice I can afford to make.

A little while ago I got home from taking my 7-month-old puppy to the vet. She needs $2,500 of surgery. Admittedly four years ago I couldn't have afforded the puppy to start with, but a diagnosis like that on any one of my animals at the time would have been devastating. Now, because of the books, it's an unhappy event and will be miserable for both of us, but it's not a tragedy. Yes, the money makes a difference, and yes, I write for money.

However, I've been on KBoards since before there was a Writers' Cafe and continue to come here every day. Since I decided long ago I'm not going to spend time doing marketing to speak of, I don't come here for advice on where to buy ads, what algos means, etc. I write the best story I can, put it out there, and so far each one has done well enough I write another one. For me the attraction of KBoards is more that it's a safe (as in moderated enough anti-indie attacks don't occur) and supportive community of like-minded people.

I also agree with Rykymus that I'm not an artist, although I don't think of myself as primarily a business person either. If someone else considers herself an artist, fine, but I think I get to define myself, and I'm not an artist and don't want to be one.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Lady Vine said:


> Nope, some of us are just both


But yet in the business threads (marketing, cover etc) the word "publisher" almost never arises. It's always "The author this" and "the author that". Almost all of the people on this board are Publisher/Authors yet very rarely refer to themselves as "Publisher". Which leads to the misconception that this is a writer/author board, when in reality it's a publisher community.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

This is an interesting thread. Through years spend in the wilderness where I basically wrote what I liked in all sorts of diverse genres and styles, I came to consider myself an artist and first and foremost I'm out to create what I consider lasting literary statements.

However.

I want this to be my job, because that's the only way I'll ever have enough time to do all the creative things I want to do, and as a result I'm prepared to compromise. I think that writers, just like people in any other industry, come in all shapes and sizes with different aims. Some people are solely out to tap a possible goldmine and will therefore write what is necessary to fit into that niche. Others will make a point of trying to write challenging, uncompromising books. I have absolutely no problem with either stance, it really is each to their own.

For my own work I've had to decide how I'm going to market it in order to achieve my aim which is to write full time. All I hear is branding, branding, branding, and it's very true. I've had to look at my extensive list of manuscripts and decide which ones will fit with the genre I'm initially attempting to push. For example, my novel Tube Riders is extremely commercial and was written as an attempt to be commercial. For that reason, I'm attempting now to push it and it's growing "brand" in order to be my main income source from writing. On my hard drive, however, I have another novel which is written in stream of consciousness, from the viewpoints of multiple different characters, all of which are social outcasts of some form or other. Does it fit with the Tube Riders brand? Not at all. But, it's my art. Therefore, I'm looking to get my main work established in order to pay for me to do all the weird and unusual writing that is in my heart to write, which I will publish under completely separate pen names, because, whatever way you look at it, I'm not creating anything while I'm flipping burgers.

I enjoy a lot of things, and I can write in different genres depending on which genre "hat" I put on, but if I really want to become successful enough to not have to spend eight to ten hours every day working for someone else, I have to be prepared to compromise, which is currently what I'm attempting to do. And to compromise successfully, I have to look at which areas of my work are most likely to sell, and spend my initial time pushing them.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Joe, if you think this is a "problem" at Kboards, I've got a forum I can point you to that would rock your world. And not in a good way. 

To me, these boards are the grownup forums I visit to learn about what other writers are doing, and how it's working for them. I don't need craft threads as such, though new thoughts or discussions about emerging trends are good.

Newbies soon realize that the "OMG! I published my book last week, but I haven't sold a zillion copies yet!" threads don't fly here. They either settle down, or move on when they don't get the attention/back-patting responses they expect.

These kind of posts come in cycles, too, which may or may not be related to whether the moon is in retrograde.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> Joe, if you think this is a "problem" at Kboards, I've got a forum I can point you to that would rock your world. And not in a good way.
> 
> To me, these boards are the grownup forums I visit to learn about what other writers are doing, and how it's working for them. I don't need craft threads as such, though new thoughts or discussions about emerging trends are good.
> 
> ...


Haha, I wonder if that forum is accessible by a button next to the reports button on you KDP page? Been months since I wasted my time posting there.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

If you're not selling, you're probably not making a lot of connections with readers. I got the most fan mail and made the most connections with readers while my book was in the top #100 on Amazon.

Sales and reader connections go hand in hand. This isn't troubling, this just is.

So, sell and sell some more. And respond to the fan mail when you get it because you are touching lives. How cool is that?


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

Victorine said:


> If you're not selling, you're probably not making a lot of connections with readers. I got the most fan mail and made the most connections with readers while my book was in the top #100 on Amazon.
> 
> Sales and reader connections go hand in hand. This isn't troubling, this just is.
> 
> So, sell and sell some more. And respond to the fan mail when you get it because you are touching lives. How cool is that?


Exactly. It's in the months coming off a successful free run that my email increases dramatically, my FB likes go up substantially, etc. That's when I feel like I am really connecting with my readers. If I had never come here and learned how to do a good free run, I would have never made those fans and I wouldn't be so optimistic about my next release.


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## MGalloway (Jun 21, 2011)

Victorine said:


> If you're not selling, you're probably not making a lot of connections with readers.


That's a really good point.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> In one way or another, over the last few years of becoming, Kboards has arrived, and now it is *IT.*
> 
> It is now THE most exciting innovative and hot business place to be for publishing.
> 
> ...


I agree with Vera. Craft talks happen in a zillion blogs across the sphere. So many of the pros here have even taught them. I think that many of us here are confident in our craft skills and are working on the next step in publishing, which is how to sell the books we do have, build a brand, and reader loyalty.

Craft threads tend to die out because many KBoard authors are past that level of interest. Once you start earning steady part time to full time pay writing novels, the next step logically isn't to go back to "the how to write a novel" especially when you've already done 5, 10, 20 or more...but how to take your business to the next step of branding and professionalism.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Craft threads tend to die out because many KBoard authors are past that level of interest."


Say it ain't so. What about adverbs?


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## ingrid avluv (Feb 15, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> God Bless the free market. Ain't this a great country?


Depends who you ask. Lots of lovers on Wall Street. Not as many among the hundreds of millions of under and unemployed who don't know whether they'll pay the rent or the electric bill next month. Not so many among the 50% of the world's population living on less than $2 a day either.

"There is undoubtedly a difference between people who manipulate other people and people who create things." - Erich Fromm


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Depends who you ask. Lots of lovers on Wall Street.


God Bless Wall Street. Ain't this a great county?


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Craft threads tend to die out because many KBoard authors are past that level of interest.


The day I stop learning is the day my career starts to die. It may take a few years for the death cycle to work itself out in a visible way, but that is exactly what will result.

And as for making a distinction between different "levels of interest," there are so many unknown unknowns out there that I think it's dangerous to make too many distinctions between what is "basic" and what is "advanced." Just the other day, I spent a couple hours walking along the Provo River Trail, pondering on the functional definitions of words like "story," "character," "plot," etc. It was fascinating to break those "basics" down to their most fundamental level, and analyze stories to see how the different elements come together.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

DDark said:


> You'll still never *find* your fans unless you sell the book.


I disagree. I have not been actively trying to sell or promote my books, but people are finding me, sometimes in the strangest ways. I've got a couple of perma-free books out there, which helps with the discovery aspect I think, but trying to make fans by hard-selling your books is kind of like putting the cart before the horse. One way or another, your fans will find you, and do a lot more selling than you ever could.


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## John Daulton (Feb 28, 2012)

Too easy to compartmentalize the art of writing, the business of writing and the business art of marketing and then pick them apart based on how they look under the microscope (and out of context). Anything scrutinized too closely starts to look funky. Even light doesn't look or work the same under scrutiny as it does just ... doing it's thing.

I think as "indies," we all are doing our thing. Some of us are more into the art side (for now, but one swing of some lever of fate and who knows tomorrow). Some of us are more about putting something together and then marketing it heavily. Some of us are all long-term business plan balancing this, that, or the other strategy, etc. 

In the end, there isn't "an" answer. There are just people who want to do something they really care about (and it has to do with writing).

What we all care about doesn't line up exactly. Business people who like to write care about business more than writing ... but that doesn't mean they can't write or don't care about art. Purist type artists who write still have to do business well at some point if they want to shed that odious "day job" and really be able to commit to art more; money may be satan, but it is also still reality. Ect. We're not at war with one another. In fact, we actually sort of all need each other for any of us to succeed. What I'm good at, you aren't. What you are good at, I didn't even know was a possibility until your post. That's why this whole indie thing is working, and what is cool about KB. IMO.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Joe, perma-free is one of the best marketing tactics out there for finding readers. I always find it odd that you say you don't market your books, because you do.

I love the business side, so I talk about it a lot. This is a good place for it with like minded individuals. I talk craft with my crit partners, editors, and on a closed forum I frequent. It's definitely not all about the money. But the money is nice and sales pretty much defines success in publishing.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

Caddy said:


> [long post]


You took the words right out of my mouth, Caddy, but I'll share my own thoughts anyway.

I'm right there with you, Joe. This is one of the reasons I don't post as much as I used to. I love this place. I do. But at times I feel like I don't belong here because money isn't the primary reason I write.

I don't believe wanting money is a problem - if I didn't want to make money, I'd be putting my books out for free. I don't believe trying to increase sales is a problem - otherwise I wouldn't do it. I don't feel guilty for being paid for my writing - why would I? I post asking for marketing tips, and I read the posts about marketing tips, and this kind of information is one of the main reasons I'm here on these forums. I don't have a problem with business threads, and I don't have a problem with the lack of craft threads (as others have said, there are other forums for that, and after hanging around on craft-centric forums for years I've gotten kind of burned out on them).

But there often seems to be an attitude here that is... not quite disparaging of writing primarily for passion rather than money, but close. There's an idea that the right way to do things is to find the genre that will make you the most money and write books that have the greatest chance of becoming bestsellers, and that if this isn't what you're doing it's because you either don't know how or don't understand that it's necessary.

There was a thread a few days ago - and I'm not trying to single this thread out, it's just the first example I happened to think of - about loving and believing in your book. And I was confused by the posts in the thread at first until I realized that loving and believing in your book was being used as a synonym for thinking your book could become a bestseller. And for a lot of people, that's exactly what it means, and there is _nothing wrong with that_. And come on, which of us wouldn't want a bestseller? But trying for a bestseller isn't always the point, and I think that's what sometimes gets lost here. What about loving and believing in a book not because of its sales potential, but because of the story itself? Maybe there just aren't that many people here who think that way - maybe for most KBers, trying for a bestseller _is _the point, which is the impression I get a lot of the time. And again, there's nothing inherently wrong with that - it just makes me wonder where the rest of us passion-focused writers who still want to make some money are.

(And would I be happy making loads of money writing stuff I didn't like? No. Writing the stories I love is what makes me happy. Some of you have said that if you couldn't make money writing, you wouldn't be writing. I guess I'm your opposite number. I'd write the stories I love forever even if I made no money doing it - and wrote for years before even beginning to think about publication - but if I had to write stories I didn't like, I wouldn't be writing. There are easier ways to make a buck.)

(Also, Joe, Genesis Earth has been on my TBR list for a while, so I just picked it up in a fit of writing-for-the-love-of-it solidarity. Looking forward to reading it.  )


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

First, Joe, DDark didn't say what you're disagreeing with. She said you have to sell books to make connections. She didn't say you have to market or promote them.

The next poster makes a very good point that a free promo is a marketing attempt. It's just not an "in people's face" or "aggressive" marketing attempt. That's cool, I do the same thing. (I just put book one at 99 cents as a loss leader.)

I think most people here "believe" in what they write. Sure some of us might be writing stuff we don't care about to pay the bills, but that's cool too. Just as writing something that you love and believe in even though you know that it stands little chance of selling. Now, if you were coming on the boards complaining "why doesn't my book sell", that's a different story.

I haven't personally seen anyone denigrating another because they are in it for artistic purposes rather than to make a buck. If anything, people poo poo on those of us who are in it primarily to make a buck.

Another reason why I don't think craft threads live very long is because much of them are personal stylistic opinions, of which there are many variations. 

As for feeling that "we know enough about writing" I'm pretty sure that what is meant is that we feel like we know enough that we don't have to come asking grammar or style questions in order to complete our work. No one ever stops learning, no matter how hard you try. All of life is a never-ending series of lessons. It's unavoidable simply because the rules of the game continue to change and evolve. That is life.

So, you see, you're safe Joe. Your art and passion for writing will not die because you will someday know it all.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

Many of us come here to learn how to better our publishing efforts, which means more sales which means more income. All nice and measurable and actionable. That's why I visit. 

I can talk aspirations with friends, or keep it to myself. I have private personal goals outside of making a living, but this is hardly the place I'd choose to discuss them. And I don't mean that as a slight. I love Writer's Cafe. I don't chat craft, I research authors and read texts.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

I was, in a round about way, thinking of something similar to this the other day. I was wondering how much better my first book would have been if I'd continued to work on it for another year. A lot better, I think, because my writing has improved and I would know to change a couple of niggly details. But that isn't to say that it's a bad book, or that it doesn't deserve to be published. I'll admit that I self-published because I was too impatient to wait for an agent to pick me up (which probably wouldn't have happened anyway). I'd taken voluntary redundancy at my old job and had started working part-time. I really dislike my job but I only have experience in that area, so selling books is a way to get me out of it. Maybe if I hadn't been so impatient I would have had a better book, who knows. But at least I'm able to save up, and to build up a readership for future books.

I submitted to an open call to an imprint for a major publisher a while back and talking to the other entrants has been an eye-opener. They spend _years_ on their books, writing and rewriting and querying and revising for agents and resubmitting and rewriting... It just sounds soul destroying to me and if self-publishing means a slight shift in focus onto the business side, then that's okay with me. And, I have now improved as a writer which means my future books are going to be better. If I'd spent the last year rewriting just one novel, I'm not sure I would have made such an improvement.

Also, I think we forget about all the other writers who write for money as well as love -- ghost writers for instance.

Anyway, I don't think we discuss sales to brag on here. We discuss sales because KDP self-publishing is relatively new, and we're the only people with the data. If we don't share our sales with each other, we don't know what's going on. Not to mention how inspiring it is to see someone doing well.

There are people who write books to change the world -- that's true. I'm probably not going to be one of these writers, at least for the foreseeable future. But I don't think we should put ourselves down for wanting to make a living.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

Deanna Chase said:


> Joe, perma-free is one of the best marketing tactics out there for finding readers. I always find it odd that you say you don't market your books, because you do.


Yeah, I suppose it counts as marketing, but it's certainly not promotion (or active promotion, anyway) because all it does is sit there passively while I focus on other stuff. The last time I submitted a perma-free book to a website was maybe two months ago; a couple of them have died but the one in my sig seems to have gotten legs of its own, since people are downloading it at an accelerating rate. And honestly, that kind of freaks me out.



Zoe Cannon said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth, Caddy, but I'll share my own thoughts anyway.
> 
> I'm right there with you, Joe. This is one of the reasons I don't post as much as I used to. I love this place. I do. But at times I feel like I don't belong here because money isn't the primary reason I write.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about--not a lack of craft threads, or a surplus of sales threads, but an underlying attitude that the truest and most valid measure of success is $$$, and everything else is secondary. Not everyone has it, but probably more than 50% of the people in this community do, and that's what I find troubling.

Also, thanks for picking up my book--I hope you enjoy it!



Rykymus said:


> First, Joe, DDark didn't say what you're disagreeing with. She said you have to sell books to make connections. She didn't say you have to market or promote them.


Ah, I must have misunderstood what she meant by "sell" then. Even then, though, "selling" isn't strictly necessary--you can also connect with readers quite effectively by giving stories away. More so, even.



> So, you see, you're safe Joe. Your art and passion for writing will not die because you will someday know it all.


Well, that's comforting!


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

sarahdalton said:


> I was, in a round about way, thinking of something similar to this the other day. I was wondering how much better my first book would have been if I'd continued to work on it for another year. A lot better, I think, because my writing has improved and I would know to change a couple of niggly details. But that isn't to say that it's a bad book, or that it doesn't deserve to be published. I'll admit that I self-published because I was too impatient to wait for an agent to pick me up (which probably wouldn't have happened anyway). I'd taken voluntary redundancy at my old job and had started working part-time. I really dislike my job but I only have experience in that area, so selling books is a way to get me out of it. Maybe if I hadn't been so impatient I would have had a better book, who knows. But at least I'm able to save up, and to build up a readership for future books.


That's right. There's always another book. My personal goal is to write more than a hundred of them.



> Anyway, I don't think we discuss sales to brag on here. We discuss sales because KDP self-publishing is relatively new, and we're the only people with the data. If we don't share our sales with each other, we don't know what's going on. Not to mention how inspiring it is to see someone doing well.


Exactly--and that's one reason why I love those threads and participate in them. It's both inspiring to see how others are doing, and helpful to share how you're doing. It's all uncharted territory, but together we can figure it out.

That said, sales aren't the be-all end-all of success. In fact, it's actually kind of low on the ladder. It's fine to let it consume your focus while you're still a newbie struggling to build a career, but if you don't find something else to shoot for then you're going to have a rough time when you actually start to make it.

Basically, this.


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## S. Shine (Jan 14, 2013)

Funny. I haven't noticed the many threads that illustrate this supposedly 'troubling tendency'.  

On a sidenote, I'm kinda taken a back by the whole mindset of "I'm a writer and an artist! And I'm looking to connect with readers and maybe even make a difference in their life!"

I couldn't dream of thinking of myself in those terms or setting that as a goal for myself, or expect others to do so in any way, shape, or form. To me, part of what makes writing so much fun is exactly because I don't impose those aspirations on myself. The pressure that would generate would ruin a lot of the fun. 

Plus, I LOVE the publishing part of being an indie as much as I love the writing aspect. In fact, perhaps even more. After all, money rocks. lol


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

C'mon, Joe, you're a smart writer. You know when you're setting up straw-man arguments to look like you're heroic for tearing them down.

I doubt there's a single writer who's a KB regular who literally thinks "Sales is the end-all, be-all of success," in the way that you suggest.

As most of the replies to this thread proves, actually.

But sales are a benchmark for what works and what doesn't.

If I spend three months investing an hour on Twitter every day after releasing Book 1, and then I spend NO time on Twitter for the next three months after releasing Book 2, how do I know if investing an hour a day networking on Twitter made a difference or not?

By looking at sales for those respective three month periods, of course.

If everything else was the same, and I see that sales stayed about the same in both periods, then Twitter's useless.

If everything else was the same, and I see that sales were much stronger in the period where I spent time on Twitter, it's an effective promotional tool.

If everything else was the same, and I see that sales stank in the period I was on Twitter, then it's a negative (or I wasn't using it right).

What people are saying here is not that they can never learn anything new about writing if there were way more craft threads here.

What people are saying here, is that the experienced self-publishers among us have gone through lots of craft stuff already to reach the level where we're regularly self-publishing.

KB tends to gather together a bunch of "I know HOW to write" writers in one place, and they talk about learning other things, like:

"How do I market my book effectively?"

"Is Scrivener a time-saver or a lot of hype?"

"What social media tools are the most effective for you, because I'm willing to learn from others and I don't want to waste a ton of time on Tumblr if there are no READERS there?"

"What color is Julie's (Bards and Sages') smartphone today?"

And most importantly, "Why is Apple 'nothing but a lotta talk and a badge.'?"

(Okay, so maybe not so much on the last two, but you get my meaning.)

A lot of sales-related threads are not just "Woot! I made money today!" posts. There's usually a context, like, "I did a free day on KDP with a lot of set-up and prep work so people heard about it, and got 10K downloads instead of 253 like I did last time."

That's what people mean when they say they're "beyond" just-craft talks. Not that they don't want to improve as writers. We all do.

But most of us are experienced writers but less experienced at tasks like marketing, getting the word out, creating awareness, etc. The tasks we take on by being self-publishers rather than signing away 85-90 percent of our income for the privilege of letting "the Big Six" sell our books for us... if they'd even deign to look at anyone who's not Stephen King or James Patterson, these days....


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

P.S,

I'm not suggesting KB isn't a place for new writers just learning the craft.

Of course it is. There's room for writers of every stripe and experience level here.

I'm just counter-pointing the suggestion that the fact that some of us talk about sales and income in one thread or another is somehow "disturbing."

All it means is, there are pros in the room, too; or at least semi-pros in the prose game. 

When a group of insurance agents gets together for a yearly conference, do they sit around only talking about "the art of the sale" topics, like "how to bring your customer to their pain," and "The ABC of Sales: Always Be Closing."

Nope.

They talk about how their client base has grown. How many closings per day they're averaging lately. How they went from barely scraping by to Top 10 in their region, and what made the difference for them.

The parallel should be clear: writing is one side of the biz, and that's about art and craft.

But publishing does involve talking about non-craft-related topics like sales, promotions, what tools and social media outlets help, how to use them effectively to connect with readers rather than coming off like a crass sales person, etc.

It's ALL here, Joe. That's the beauty of KB Writer's Cafe. There are topics for everyone.


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## Ryan Sullivan (Jul 9, 2011)

I've only read the first post.

I feel lucky that I don't need to be making money just from writing in order consider myself successful. (Well, this is just a projection of the future.) I have two goals for the future, and they're to be making my living both from writing and teaching piano. Neither of them will necessarily make heaps of money, but together they could make a comfortable wage. And whichever is bringing in less, I can focus more on the other one. So if I've only got students two days of the week, I could be writing 9 - 5 three days a week. And if I have more students, I can limit myself to writing at night-time, and on weekends/days off.

Of course I want my books to do well. Of course I'd love to write full-time. But if I'm not writing something I want to write, it defeats the whole purpose. So I'll write what I want to write -- otherwise, it's not really success in my view. Maybe it's success to the person on the outside looking in, but not to me.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

S. Shine said:


> Funny. I haven't noticed the many threads that illustrate this supposedly 'troubling tendency'.


Right. As with most things, people see what they want to see. Glass half-full/half-empty.

I treat this as a business because that's what it is. Businesses that aren't concerned with the bottom line, with turning a profit, increasing sales etc are more akin to charities. I don't run a charity, because that won't pay my bills. I want lots of readers, and I want to make a living doing something I love. Sales = freedom to do just that.

I take it as a given that most people who come here for publishing advice already have the writing chops to inspire, move or generally entertain their readers. If they don't they ask questions. They start threads, much like this one, and those interested in discussing craft read and respond. Just as it should be.

Nothing troubling about any of that, imo. (This really reminds me of the whole "write what people want to read" argument we hear every day...)


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

ElHawk said:


> I really wish the board itself had a different format. Topics roll off to quickly and get lost. A forum set up more in the style of the dreaded AW, where subforums stay static and are much easier to browse, would be welcome. I think it would facilitate richer discussion.


This sounds to me a lot like the old Yogi Berra line about a well known restaurant, "Nobody goes there any more; it's too crowded." 

I'll also remind people that the Writer's Cafe is just one sub-forum of KBoards. Most of the members here are NOT writers and are active only in the other areas of the board. Though it is fair to say this sub-forum is the most active overall. 

I've also not noticed any of the regulars here having a problem finding threads to post to. If topics get lost, it's probably because there's not a lot of interest. If you start something, or post to something, and are worried about not finding it again later, you can always toggle on the 'notify' for that topic. Then you'll get an email when there have been posts. And you can toggle it back off when you are no longer interested or it's faded.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I know where Joe is coming from in the OP - and I respect that - but why do we have to look at this in such a binary way? Can we not aim for money AND respect AND great stories AND deep and meaningful connections with readers? Why do we have to choose? Yes, I want to have my cake and eat it, but isn't that the point of cake?

In fact, an argument could be made that the best way to make money is to write great stories while developing deep and meaningful connections with readers.

Money is very important to me and will remain so until I can kick this troublesome eating habit that needs to be sated several times a day. As such, I'm not ashamed to say that - given that there are no jobs in Europe for anyone under the age of 40 - making money from writing is really, really crucial for me.

But that doesn't mean I have to jettison any of my principles, or my commitment to only publish my best work, or my desire to write things that excite me and (hopefully!) move people.

And being the contrary type that I am, I should point out that the writer's motivation often ends up being irrelevant. There are plenty of terrible stories written by people with the best of intentions, and there are plenty of great, timeless stories that were hammered out for quick cash.

For example, Anthony Burgess said that he dashed out A Clockwork Orange in three weeks for money, but few would argue against it's classic status, and, indeed, many would struggle to name anything else he's written.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I've also not noticed any of the regulars here having a problem finding threads to post to. If topics get lost, it's probably because there's not a lot of interest. If you start something, or post to something, and are worried about not finding it again later, you can always toggle on the 'notify' for that topic. Then you'll get an email when there have been posts. And you can toggle it back off when you are no longer interested or it's faded.


I actually do have this problem sometimes, and I've been using/running SMF forums for almost 10 years. I don't want to check notify on every post I read or post in, but sometimes I can't find something that I saw earlier. And I know there was a discussion awhile back about this, where a good number said they weren't too fond of it either, they just got outvoted.

I don't have an opinion on the business vs. writing. I do most of my writing study on my own anyway, with books and classes. I like hearing about the business stuff from people I know are succeeding, because you can't always trust what someone says on their blog. But I also know that there's quite a few craft threads here.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Sales and income are the best way of measuring one's progress and effectiveness in the other elements you laud, though, Joe.


Except that much of what we consider great literature was not financially successful in its time. And many authors never made a living on their work. Poe was the first American writer to actually try to live on his writing (and in general failed miserably despite his wonderful work). Historically, few writers live on their writing. The books that win the Pulitzer and the Booker and such are often not commercially successful book until after they are recognized. And even then, few become household names. Everyone has heard of _50 Shades of Gray_. How many people have heard of _The Round House?_

Besides, there is something hypocritical of indies to claim sales and income are the best way of measuring writing success when at the same time whining about how trade publishing is only interested in bestsellers. By virtue of your arguement, shouldn't we all be trying to get trade publishing deals since trade publishers are only interested in bestsellers and therefore such contracts would prove the effectiveness of our writing? You can't simultaneously claim sales and income are the best way to measure success and get mad at trade publishers for using sales and income to measure success.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Hey, Chris, _wink-win_k, _nudge-nudge_.

I agree with Craig and David. We can have both options, sales and craft. I see a pretty good mix here on the boards, though for the most part it's not beginner level craft discussions.

Indies are kind of like split personalities: we want sales as publishers, but as writers we want our work to speak to the readers. Sales will sometimes indicate that the second is happening, and sometimes not -- how many really good books do you know that have very low sales, while crappy books zoom up the ranks?

In the short term, sales can validate us, let us know we're on the right track. That doesn't mean it's the only thing we think about, at least for most of us.

I don't think any of us know what book will become a classic, until it gets there. Let future teachers debate that.

Boards change as new members come in. Sometimes it's a permanent change, but most often what happens here is that the ones who are serious stay, and the others move on. I've seen it happen to forum after forum over the years, but I have to say that these forums have consistently stayed on track and relevant to this new publishing world.

If you don't see topics you want, start a new thread. It may or may not sink, but you'll have the chance to discuss craft if that's what you want.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Except that much of what we consider great literature was not financially successful in its time. And many authors never made a living on their work. Poe was the first American writer to actually try to live on his writing (and in general failed miserably despite his wonderful work). Historically, few writers live on their writing. The books that win the Pulitzer and the Booker and such are often not commercially successful book until after they are recognized. And even then, few become household names. Everyone has heard of _50 Shades of Gray_. How many people have heard of _The Round House?_
> 
> Besides, there is something hypocritical of indies to claim sales and income are the best way of measuring writing success when at the same time whining about how trade publishing is only interested in bestsellers. By virtue of your arguement, shouldn't we all be trying to get trade publishing deals since trade publishers are only interested in bestsellers and therefore such contracts would prove the effectiveness of our writing? *You can't simultaneously claim sales and income are the best way to measure success and get mad at trade publishers for using sales and income to measure success.*


We certainly can. The authors in us can be disgruntled about this all we like, but the publishers in us (mostly) understand that this is a business. The luxury we have by being both means we can release both commercial and non-commercial stuff and still be very happy on both sides of the fence.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> C'mon, Joe, you're a smart writer. You know when you're setting up straw-man arguments to look like you're heroic for tearing them down.


Um, no. A thread doesn't reach seven pages without resonating in some way with people, in a way that a straw man argument cannot. But thanks for the ad hominem. 

You're completely missing the point of my OP. This is not an issue with "too many sales threads" or "too few craft threads," but an underlying attitude that focuses only on sales and ignores or forgets everything else. Am I the only one seeing it? From the overwhelming response to this thread, clearly not.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Besides, there is something hypocritical of indies to claim sales and income are the best way of measuring writing success when at the same time whining about how trade publishing is only interested in bestsellers.


I don't see the distinction as hypocritical. I see it as critical. Let's put aside the fact that bestseller lists are incredibly misleading. Industrial publishers report sales figures while hiding a book's net income value. Yes, we get to see the occasional revenue figure, but that is rather useless in a vacuum. Nokia sells a lot of phones, Apple sells a lot of phones, but only Apple makes a lot of money selling phones. You need that net income (profit) figure to make sense of things.

IMHO, this is insidious. It hides from the content producer the true value their readers are placing in their content. Think back to the uproar Konrath caused when he revealed just how much he was making self-publishing. Sure, his sales weren't that great when compared to a traditional bestseller, but the money he claimed he was raking in was so shocking that some with standard contracts straight out called him a liar. That's because they lacked their own net income data, and they had no idea how much their readers believed they were worth.

If authors are told how much revenue and profit their works were generating, they are better able to make career decisions. That's why some of us hate the focus on bestseller-dome. That's why Joe Nobody argued for a shift to a gross revenue / net income system. And that's what an investor would be concerned about in any other industry.

You're last point, that "You can't simultaneously claim sales and income are the best way to measure success and get mad at trade publishers for using sales and income to measure success," is absolutely correct. But that is different than what we are observing. Trade publishers pool their net income figures, making all calculations guestimations.

B.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

Lady Vine said:


> Right. As with most things, people see what they want to see. Glass half-full/half-empty.


I think it's much more common for people not to see what they don't want to see.



dgaughran said:


> I know where Joe is coming from in the OP - and I respect that - but why do we have to look at this in such a binary way? Can we not aim for money AND respect AND great stories AND deep and meaningful connections with readers? Why do we have to choose? Yes, I want to have my cake and eat it, but isn't that the point of cake?
> 
> In fact, an argument could be made that the best way to make money is to write great stories while developing deep and meaningful connections with readers.


Exactly--I'm not saying that it isn't, or that there isn't a connection between sales and everything else. What I'm saying is that sometimes, we seem to be so focused on sales numbers that we forget about all the other things that it's connected with. We end up taking a binary view, just because we're so hyperfocused on the $$$. That's what troubles me.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I guess I don't see it as a clear cut divide between being passionate about my books because I think they are great stories, and wanting to earn money from them at the same time. I see it as a mixture of both. First of all, I wrote for free and shared my stories on fanfiction sites for years before going with original stories. Some of my fanfics are still up at fanfiction.net and I get occasional reviews. I get the same warm glow now when I get a nice review on them that I used to get even though I'm not getting paid. I love that I entertained someone for however long it took them to read my story. 

Getting paid for my work doesn't suddenly make me lose my passion for writing. In fact, since I've been able to reach a much wider audience with my books than I could with my fanfiction, I am more excited about writing.

I also started thinking about other jobs where people are seen by the public as doing something noble (cop, nurse, firefighter, soldier). When you think of a nurse, it conjures up this image of someone caring for you and being selfless. Well, I got news for you! I work in a hospital, not as a nurse, but as a respiratory therapist and we work closely with nurses. Yes, many are very caring and are fantastic nurses. They love what they do. I love what I do as an RT, but guess what? Very few of us would do it for free. I am active on a RT forum and we talk about different aspects of the job. Often pay will come up, as in, 'This state pays higher than this other state.' Or they'll ask about benefits, patient loads, stress levels, etc. I've never heard anyone say none of that matters to them because they just love taking care of patients. It kind of seems like the same thing. I love aspects of my job, but I wouldn't do it for free.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

DDark said:


> I guess I'm not seeing it.  I see a ton of threads asking how to improve a cover, where to find a good editor, tips for new authors, what I learned from my experience from KDP, how to build social networking skills, what can I do to maximize traffic to my website, does anyone have advice on what I need for an author conference, what are your thoughts on this article about trad vs indie, do you think this idea is something I should write about or is it too controversial, etc. I also see threads on how to maximize sales, the best places to advertise and everyone's personal experience, and consider this forum a wealth of information.


Right. And that kind of stuff is why I find it useful to stay with this community, and why I'd post a thread on this topic rather than just shrug and go away. The tendency isn't so insidious that it consumes everything, which means that there's hope for bucking it. But when I read stuff like this:



Sheila_Guthrie said:


> sales can validate us


or read about people throwing in the towel because their books didn't sell, or read a success story that ends with "and now I'm making $XXX,XXX" and little else, or see those ridiculous achievement medals based on daily sales levels (though that ridiculous turd medal pretty much threw the water on that), those are all manifestations of this attitude that troubles me.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Joe, why let someone else's aspirations trouble you?

B.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Joe, why let someone else's aspirations trouble you?
> 
> B.




This has nothing to do with aspirations. Not sure where you're getting that from. It has to do with a dangerous attitude that seems to pervade a lot of aspects of this community, which exalts sales as the highest, most absolute measure of indie publishing success.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Except that much of what we consider great literature was not financially successful in its time. And many authors never made a living on their work. Poe was the first American writer to actually try to live on his writing (and in general failed miserably despite his wonderful work). Historically, few writers live on their writing. The books that win the Pulitzer and the Booker and such are often not commercially successful book until after they are recognized. And even then, few become household names. Everyone has heard of _50 Shades of Gray_. How many people have heard of _The Round House?_
> 
> Besides, there is something hypocritical of indies to claim sales and income are the best way of measuring writing success when at the same time whining about how trade publishing is only interested in bestsellers. By virtue of your arguement, shouldn't we all be trying to get trade publishing deals since trade publishers are only interested in bestsellers and therefore such contracts would prove the effectiveness of our writing? *You can't simultaneously claim sales and income are the best way to measure success and get mad at trade publishers for using sales and income to measure success.*


I don't think that many people are mad at trad publishing for their emphasis on best sellers. Trad publishing is what it is. Most of us are way past being "mad" at them. But you're right that Poe was not successful in making a living as a writer. His tragic live shows how important it is that authors be able to make a living at their work--however, we happen to do it.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> This has nothing to do with aspirations. Not sure where you're getting that from. It has to do with a dangerous attitude that seems to pervade a lot of aspects of this community, which exalts sales as the highest, most absolute measure of indie publishing success.


Sure it does. Some people on this board want to make money writing. That is their career's primary driver, and content that serves that interest is what motivates their interactions here. You call this attitude of exulting sales as the most absolute form of success dangerous. Why--and why care?

B.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Right. And that kind of stuff is why I find it useful to stay with this community, and why I'd post a thread on this topic rather than just shrug and go away. The tendency isn't so insidious that it consumes everything, which means that there's hope for bucking it. But when I read stuff like this:
> 
> *or read about people throwing in the towel because their books didn't sell, or read a success story that ends with "and now I'm making $XXX,XXX" and little else, or see those ridiculous achievement medals based on daily sales levels (though that ridiculous turd medal pretty much threw the water on that), those are all manifestations of this attitude that troubles me.*


So not everyone feels the same way you do. That's life.


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## CarlG (Sep 16, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I will say that often this seems more like Publishers' Cafe or Marketers' Cafe. Nothing wrong with that, but yeah, the writing itself seems to get the back seat here most of the time.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Most of us (including me) have aspirations to turn this writing gig into our main careers and quit or scale back on the day job(s). I think those goals are laudable, and I hope that most if not all of us are able to make it. However, I wonder if in our enthusiasm to build our careers, we're putting too much emphasis on monetary measures of success, like sales, and not enough emphasis on building connections with readers, writing meaningful stories, or reconnecting with the things that made us write in the first place.
> 
> Sales and income are certainly important, but I cannot believe that they are the most important thing. They're certainly not the reasons I started writing in the first place. And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.
> 
> Not sure if I have a solution to this problem, but it's a troubling tendency in this community that I wanted to point out.


I think there is a fine balance. For me, I love writing. I've always wanted to be an author. I wouldn't want to do anything else with my life. My preferred genre is horror, but here I am making a living off of writing erotica and romance. When your soul source of income depends on your writing, I think you tend to look at the money more closely. I'd probably have a lot more 5 star reviews, happier readers, and higher rankings on my books if I priced everything at $0.99, but at the end of the day, that isn't going to pay my bills. Alternatively, I'd be a lot happier if I only wrote horror, but that's not going to pay my bills either. Definitely a fine balance, for me at least.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

There are tons of places to go on the internet for craft discussions. How many place are there like KBoards for talking about everything else? Stating people don't come here for craft discusions is obvious, and frankly, yes, at a certain point after you've read ten thousand novels and read several hundred each year, there is a point where you just start "doing" because it's second nature to "know" how to do it. 

You can use beta writers and editors to refine your work, and no, you don't have to spend endless hours analyzing "how to." You can just read what's popular in your genre to get an idea of what readers want and what has already been done.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Besides, there is something hypocritical of indies to claim sales and income are the best way of measuring writing success when at the same time whining about how trade publishing is only interested in bestsellers. By virtue of your arguement, shouldn't we all be trying to get trade publishing deals since trade publishers are only interested in bestsellers and therefore such contracts would prove the effectiveness of our writing? You can't simultaneously claim sales and income are the best way to measure success and get mad at trade publishers for using sales and income to measure success.


Exactly this.

There's a constant drumbeat of "Self Publishing increases diversity because the Traditional Publishers ONLY want books that make money!!!" but the reality is that it might actually be the other way around. Self Publishers (as evidenced in this thread) are really after the money and not the diversity (or even quality) of the marketplace.

This is completely backwards from the independent film scene and the independent music scene where the types of content that is created is almost always in direct opposition of the stuff released by the corporations.

How come we never read about indies or self-publishers striving to achieve awards?


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Sure it does. Some people on this board want to make money writing. That is their career's primary driver, and content that serves that interest is what motivates their interactions here. You call this attitude of exulting sales as the most absolute form of success dangerous. Why--and why care?
> 
> B.


Because when you achieve it, what next? See that article I linked to a couple of pages back.

I'm not saying that career aspirations are impure or corrupting. I'm just saying that sales aren't everything. And this thread is certainly not motivated by envy, which seems to be the underlying message in your assertion that others' aspirations somehow trouble me.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Because when you achieve it, what next?


Whatever he or she desires. Why care? What business is it of ours?



Joe Vasicek said:


> And this thread is certainly not motivated by envy, which seems to be the underlying message in your assertion that others' aspirations somehow trouble me.


Absolutely not. Try to focus on the words I have written. I'm asking what the danger is. What harm will come to these individuals that focus on sales and earnings as their metrics of success? Why do we need to be concerned for them? Why do they require this intervention? Sales aren't everything for you. Okay. But why can't they be everything for someone else?

B.

ETA:



NathanWrann said:


> There's a constant drumbeat of "Self Publishing increases diversity because the Traditional Publishers ONLY want books that make money!!!" but the reality is that it might actually be the other way around. Self Publishers (as evidenced in this thread) are really after the money and not the diversity (or even quality) of the marketplace.


The fault here is pointing to a select few gathering on one board known to be a hub for marketing analyses and painting all self-publishing motives with it.



NathanWrann said:


> How come we never read about indies or self-publishers striving to achieve awards?


Perhaps they have found a more alluring metric.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> Exactly this.
> 
> There's a constant drumbeat of "Self Publishing increases diversity because the Traditional Publishers ONLY want books that make money!!!" but the reality is that it might actually be the other way around. Self Publishers (as evidenced in this thread) are really after the money and not the diversity (or even quality) of the marketplace.
> 
> ...


How so?

Exactly how does my opinion on whether you should make money or not affect someone else's ability to self-publish?

ETA: Most major awards exclude SP novels so "achieving" awards is fairly unlikely just by definition. If that is your goal, then I would probably suggest you have chosen the wrong publishing path.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

Guys, guys, guys.

This is not a call for more "craft" threads.  I have no idea where you guys are getting that from (well, some idea, but it's still putting words in my mouth).  It's not a call for changing any of the content or layout of this forum, or asking certain people to leave, or anything like that.

It's simply a plea to remember that sales aren't everything, or even the most important thing.  

That is all.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Whatever he or she desires. Why care? What business is it of ours?


Oh, come on. If everyone took a "why care?" attitude about what others are doing, this community would not exist. 

Success is dangerous. It kills small businesses almost as much as failure does. Read Kris Rusch's _Freelancer's Guide_ if you don't believe me. When people shoot for what seems to be an impossible dream and achieve it sooner than they expected, it can kill their drive and leave them lost and confused. No matter how much you try to dismiss it, it is still true.

And that's only one reason why the single-minded focus on sales is so dangerous.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> There are tons of places to go on the internet for craft discussions. How many place are there like KBoards for talking about everything else? Stating people don't come here for craft discusions is obvious, and frankly, yes, at a certain point after you've read ten thousand novels and read several hundred each year, there is a point where you just start "doing" because it's second nature to "know" how to do it.
> 
> You can use beta writers and editors to refine your work, and no, you don't have to spend endless hours analyzing "how to." You can just read what's popular in your genre to get an idea of what readers want and what has already been done.


This exactly. I'm not sure what Joe considers that we *should* be discussing though since he says that he is not asking for more craft threads. Threads just stating that we don't care about sales? Well, most of us do, so that would be a bit hypocritical.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> I'm not sure what Joe considers that we *should* be discussing though since he says that he is not asking for more craft threads. Threads just stating that we don't care about sales? Well, most of us do, so that would be a bit hypocritical.


Since you seem to have missed this, I'm going to repost it for your benefit:



Joe Vasicek said:


> Guys, guys, guys.
> 
> This is not a call for more "craft" threads. I have no idea where you guys are getting that from (well, some idea, but it's still putting words in my mouth). It's not a call for changing any of the content or layout of this forum, or asking certain people to leave, or anything like that.
> 
> ...


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Success is dangerous. It kills small businesses almost as much as failure does. Read Kris Rusch's Freelancer's Guide if you don't believe me. When people shoot for what seems to be an impossible dream and achieve it sooner than they expected, it can kill their drive and leave them lost and confused. No matter how much you try to dismiss it, it is still true.


Poverty is more dangerous. Everything is relative.

B.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

NathanWrann said:


> Exactly this.
> 
> There's a constant drumbeat of "Self Publishing increases diversity because the Traditional Publishers ONLY want books that make money!!!" but the reality is that it might actually be the other way around. *Self Publishers (as evidenced in this thread) are really after the money and not the diversity (or even quality) of the marketplace.*
> 
> ...


  _That's_ what you got from this thread? Wow...

Here's a thought: maybe awards aren't our biggest priority because we're more interested in gaining a readership. When I receive fan mail, or see the second or third book in my series shoot up the charts on the first day it's released, this tells me more about my work and its merits than any award ever could. It tells me that people were eagerly awaiting the next instalment, and _that_ tells me that people are enjoying my work. Which is precisely the result I was going for.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Since you seem to have missed this, I'm going to repost it for your benefit:


I obviously did NOT miss it since I referred to it. You don't get to say what is the most important thing to me or to others. Maybe sales ARE the most important thing to me. I know they are to at least some of the people who post here.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> I obviously did NOT miss it since I referred to it. You don't get to say what is the most important thing to me or to others. Maybe sales ARE the most important thing to me. I know they are to at least some of the people who post here.


And yet, in the same breath, you went on to wonder what kind of threads I am looking to see. I thought I made it clear that this isn't about seeing more of a certain kind of thread, or less of another. If I didn't, I apologize.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

> It's simply a plea to remember that sales aren't everything, or even the most important thing.


But they are to many people and who are we (you) to say they are not? You can plead for art as focus over commerce, but for many (most?) this is a business and financial concerns are at or near the top of the list. And that's okay.

Perhaps you can start threads that lead discussions into what else *is* important to you, what you think the focus should be. Some will write those off as arty-farty threads, just as you might write off the "I made $XX.XX" threads. That's ok too.

You are, of course, are welcome to feel that those who make a different choice have mercenary tendencies, but I really don't think that true. Making a buck isn't the same as making a quick buck. Most here are concerned with the former and not the latter.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Sales and money are not the end all and are not the ONLY means of measuring success. I have read every single post in this discussion, and not one person has stated that opinion. NOT ONE. Furthermore, when we talk of sales, we aren't speaking of $$$ for the most part, we're speaking of the number of people who have chosen to read something we wrote. This is evidenced by the fact that we get just as excited when 1,000 people download our free books as we do when 1,000 people pay us money for our books.

The quality of one's writing is subjective, and is therefore quite difficult to measure in a way that is accurate in everyone's eyes.  Sales are concrete numbers that everyone can understand. Sales in and of themselves are not the measure of a good book, only a financially successful one. However, for it to achieve that goal it must measure up as a worthwhile read in the eyes of a large number of readers.

Most of society measures success using a financial measuring stick, just as most of society measures the beauty of an individual by their external attractiveness. Neither are healthy attitudes for the most part, but they exist nonetheless.

Each of us measures personal success in their own way. For myself, I would not be happy writing anything other than what I am currently writing. If I had to write in another genre in order to pay the bills, I don't think I'd be writing. For me, personal success is being able to write stories that I like and share them with others, and to make enough money from that to comfortably support myself and my family so that I may continue writing those stories until the day I die. I'm not trying to be famous, and I'm not trying to become a millionaire. I just want a steady, livable stream of income derived from the sales of the stories I like to write.

I come here to the Writer's Café because this is where I learned how to sell my stories.  This is not where I learned how to define personal success for myself. I figured that out on my own a long time ago.

I would suggest that we all stop thinking of "sales" as meaning the same thing as "money". "Sales" infers some financial gain, but it also speaks of the number of opportunities to "connect" (for lack of a better term) with readers.  Most of what I see the OP worried about is the focus on money, which is a word I rarely see used on these boards.

ETA: When I was a medic on an ambulance, we were taught not to take unnecessary risks, such as driving the ambulance like a bat-out-of-hell. The idea was that we weren't going to save anybody if we didn't get there. I see this as pretty much the same thing, as sales/downloads = more readers = more connections = greater satisfaction = more inspiration to write = improved craft.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

I think the issue Joe's raising is not whether we talk enough about craft as a community but whether we care enough about craft as a community.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about--not a lack of craft threads, or a surplus of sales threads, but an underlying attitude that the truest and most valid measure of success is $$$, and everything else is secondary. Not everyone has it, but probably more than 50% of the people in this community do, and that's what I find troubling."


I accept you find that troubling. Why should anyone else find it troubling?



> "Because when you achieve it, what next? See that article I linked to a couple of pages back."


I don't know. It's none of my business what people do when they achieve it.



> "How come we never read about indies or self-publishers striving to achieve awards? "


Perhaps they don't care.



> "It's simply a plea to remember that sales aren't everything, or even the most important thing."


There certainly are more things than sales. There is also a huge area of life that has nothing to do with writing. Nobody here has standing to pronounce on how anyone else derives satisfaction from their lives. It's nobody's business.



> "Success is dangerous. It kills small businesses almost as much as failure does. Read Kris Rusch's Freelancer's Guide if you don't believe me. When people shoot for what seems to be an impossible dream and achieve it sooner than they expected, it can kill their drive and leave them lost and confused. No matter how much you try to dismiss it, it is still true. "


I choose success. I can deal with the consequences on my own, and will extend the same courtesy to others.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

CarlG said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but I will say that often this seems more like Publishers' Cafe or Marketers' Cafe. Nothing wrong with that, but yeah, the writing itself seems to get the back seat here most of the time.


Many of us don't come here for writing advice. I have a few real life writing groups I go to, as well as some online writing forums. This is the only place I know of where I can ask a question related to indie publishing, and be pretty sure of someone replying who has experience with the subject. Before I ever finished my first novel, I was active in many writing groups online and didn't think I needed to switch to this forum for questions on actual writing. I wouldn't mind doing that, but as someone upthread pointed out, with just one board, it becomes difficult to sustain active writing threads here.

ETA: I guess my point is that just because some of us don't actively talk about writing here, doesn't mean we aren't passionate about it. The writer you think is money driven might have a stack of books on how to improve their writing sitting on their bedside table, or may head a writing group that does critique, or they may have an online writing circle outside of Kboards. In fact, I would bet most of us are like that.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

I've watched this thread with great interest, as I probably come across as one of the most "commercially minded," writers on the board.

I can understand the OP's point, and neither agree or disagree. It is his perspective and logically supported.

I would like to note that my focus on sales and income isn't driven by what many folks would think.

I post my sales numbers, and thus success, to establish credibility. My thinking is that most new writers would heed the advice of someone who is selling reasonably well over someone who isn't. Not always, not on every topic, but in general. A big part of my participation on the WC is to help and receive help from others. To improve. When Miss Hart, Miss Ward, Mr. Blake, or any number of others post about marketing and promotion, I read their advice with rapt attention. I give it more weight in my decision process than the input of someone just starting out.

This position leads to the real question that came into my mind as I read through the responses: 

How do we measure success if not by sales? What other tangible measurement is there for credibility? As someone pointed out above, we're all dealing with a craft that is driven by personal taste. What some folks might believe is high, fine art is absolute rubbish to others.  Reviews don't happen without sales and are questionable even then. Awards can be purchased. Total words written means nothing - I can sit and spew crap at 200 words a minute for a few weeks, wrap a cover around it and hit the publish button. This does not a writer make.

I respect those who write for the art or for expression. Seriously, I think that is absolutely wonderful. But on the other hand, I don't think it prudent that I give the same weight to advice given of those who don't care about sales when it comes to the topics that address making a living as a writer. My income and standard of living is on the line - I want to know who the "winners" are and how the tactics of that led to victory. If I go to a class, I want the instructor to have credibility and experience. If I make a critical decision based on someone's advice, I feel better about the process if I know they were successful.  

So if the focus on sales is moving our forum in a direction that folks believe isn't positive, I'm curious of what factor should be used to weigh the words of others as we strive to lean and improve. How do we identify the experts?

I'm a private person, and often I cringe every time I post something about my success, even if the intent is to celebrate with friends.

I would welcome another measurement or method to establish credibility and not talk about income. Someone please tell me what that is.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> And yet, in the same breath, you went on to wonder what kind of threads I am looking to see. I thought I made it clear that this isn't about seeing more of a certain kind of thread, or less of another. If I didn't, I apologize.


Joe, I honestly don't know what it is you want to see since you say you aren't happy with what you're seeing now. No need to apologize but I don't know what you want.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

I have no problem with authors making money, if they make money at writing, that means I get to buy the books that I like. But if an author says "I'm only in it for the money", it makes me see that they have feet of clay. When businesses advertise, they don't say "we're only in this to make money", they go out of their way to talk about how much they care about their customers and how proud they are of their products. Of course, they want to make money, but they try to make the impression that making money isn't their _sole_ motivation.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

QuantumIguana said:


> I have no problem with authors making money, if they make money at writing, that means I get to buy the books that I like. But if an author says *"I'm only in it for the money", it makes me see that they have feet of clay. When businesses advertise, they don't say "we're only in this to make money", they go out of their way to talk about how much they care about their customers and how proud they are of their products. Of course, they want to make money, but they try to make the impression that making money isn't their sole motivation.*


When authors advertise, they don't say "We're only in it for the money", but when talking to others authors they might mention it as a prime motivator, just as a business would to another.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Most of us (including me) have aspirations to turn this writing gig into our main careers and quit or scale back on the day job(s). I think those goals are laudable, and I hope that most if not all of us are able to make it. However, I wonder if in our enthusiasm to build our careers, we're putting too much emphasis on monetary measures of success, like sales, and not enough emphasis on building connections with readers, writing meaningful stories, or reconnecting with the things that made us write in the first place.
> 
> Sales and income are certainly important, but I cannot believe that they are the most important thing. They're certainly not the reasons I started writing in the first place. And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.
> 
> Not sure if I have a solution to this problem, but it's a troubling tendency in this community that I wanted to point out.


Writing is the business of authors. Authors and readers have a symbiotic relationship, not parasitic. We provide realities for them to explore, and they provide sustenance, and both at a balance which does not harm the other.

However, we are treated as parasites who must be shoved together in an out of the way hole to even mention that we are authors, by true parasites who only can exist because we do. See the definitions of parasite and symbiote. Parasites are harmful, provide little benefit for the cost to the host, and are competitive for the hosts blood.

If we do not follow the dictates of the parasites, wherever they are, and by whatever form they take, we are doing evil in their eyes.

The readers would love to get to know us as Authors. We would love to interact with them as Authors.

Parasites feel the need to regulate the interaction. They call any such interaction self-promotion.

It is highly common for carpenters or any other tradesmen to talk shop when together, so why should it be any different for Authors?

This is the writer's cafe, haven't you noticed? Another hole.

A place to separate us from the readers, not join us somehow mysteriously to them.


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## cdvsmx5 (May 23, 2012)

I find troubling this community with your own Freudian projections dangerous.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

NathanWrann said:


> How come we never read about indies or self-publishers striving to achieve awards?


Soooo, these award-thingies&#8230; they come with prize money? How much?


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Awards tend to corrupt authors far worse than money.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> How do we measure success if not by sales? What other tangible measurement is there for credibility? As someone pointed out above, we're all dealing with a craft that is driven by personal taste. What some folks might believe is high, fine art is absolute rubbish to others. Reviews don't happen without sales and are questionable even then. Awards can be purchased. Total words written means nothing - I can sit and spew crap at 200 words a minute for a few weeks, wrap a cover around it and hit the publish button. This does not a writer make.


Thanks for your thoughtful response, Joe. I think that's the heart of the problem right there. The only real measurable benchmark of success is sales, but if that becomes all we ever talk about, then (for some of us, at least) it becomes all we ever think about, which can lead to all sorts of other problems, especially when we start to experience success. And maybe that's why I'm so concerned about this--because I'm a lot more terrified by success than I am by failure.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)




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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

This thread makes my head want to explode.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

Rykymus said:


> I have read every single post in this discussion, and not one person has stated that opinion. NOT ONE.


Perhaps, but the number of people who have basically responded with "what's wrong with making $$$ the greatest focus?" tells me that the sentiment is very real, though it may exist primarily under the surface.



> Furthermore, when we talk of sales, we aren't speaking of $$$ for the most part, we're speaking of the number of people who have chosen to read something we wrote. This is evidenced by the fact that we get just as excited when 1,000 people download our free books as we do when 1,000 people pay us money for our books.


That's a good point.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> Joe, I honestly don't know what it is you want to see since you say you aren't happy with what you're seeing now. No need to apologize but I don't know what you want.


I'm not trying to propose a solution. I'm just pointing out that there's a problem, and a danger.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Perhaps, but the number of people who have basically responded with "what's wrong with making $$$ the greatest focus?" tells me that the sentiment is very real, though it may exist primarily under the surface.


And I repeat, _what's wrong with that?_ I have kids to support. Other people have said this is their only job and they depend on it to pay their mortgage and other bills. Why on earth is it a problem if some of us are focused, whether to a greater or lesser degree, on making money at this? If it bothers anyone to make money at writing, they're free to give their writing it away. Wattpad is a good alternative, or you can always make your books permafree. But some of us are indeed focused on earning money, which does not mean that we write crap for money, that we're churning out garbage, or that we don't love and value our work and appreciate our readers. It just means that this is our career and we intend to approach it in such a way that may enable us to support ourselves at it.



> I'm just pointing out that there's a problem, and a danger.


A problem and a danger how? How on earth does it endanger anyone, or cause any problems, if I write so I can feed my kids and get them through college? Am I less welcome on KBoards because I'm interested in earning money and post in threads about the topic? Does it make me less of a "real" writer? Does it somehow undercut the rest of the writers here? I can't see how.

And now I think I'm done with this thread. It's beginning to make my hackles go up, and that's never a good thing. Time for a nice Mountain Dew break, I do believe.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

ElHawk said:


> I really wish the board itself had a different format. Topics roll off to quickly and get lost.


I like the format this forum has. Only topics that appeal to most of us stay on the front page, so it is easy to find out what's going on in the fast-changing world of publishing without having to wade through a bunch of sub-forums.

If you want to spend more time here, then you can go on to page 2, 3, 4, etc. When I first arrived at the Writer's Cafe, I started at the last page and read them all.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Cherise Kelley said:


> When I first arrived at the Writer's Cafe, I started at the last page and read them all.


  

There must be a reward for that.


Betsy


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## S. Shine (Jan 14, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> It's simply a plea to remember that sales aren't everything, or even the most important thing.
> 
> That is all.


I think you should certainly keep to simply speaking for your self. That would appear to be reasonable, no?

So, you may want to edit that and add "to me!"

Also, how did you conclude that there is something 'wrong' with the personal opinion that does say that sales are everything, and the most important thing for them?

And maybe you can actually back up the claim made in your OP with a handful of threads that illustrate your point? So far, I've come up with nothing but the conclusion that you are reading into posts something that only exists in your imagination.

Edit: darn typos.


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## S. Shine (Jan 14, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Oh, come on. If everyone took a "why care?" attitude about what others are doing, this community would not exist.
> 
> Success is dangerous. It kills small businesses almost as much as failure does. Read Kris Rusch's _Freelancer's Guide_ if you don't believe me. When people shoot for what seems to be an impossible dream and achieve it sooner than they expected, it can kill their drive and leave them lost and confused. No matter how much you try to dismiss it, it is still true.
> 
> And that's only one reason why the single-minded focus on sales is so dangerous.


Really? How so? And seriously, are we here to babysit each other or to interact as adults?


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## dkgould (Feb 18, 2013)

I've read all the pages now (unless there's more as I'm posting this) and I think I finally understand what the OP is saying, but I don't want to assume, since there are already scads of replies assuming something that he is not saying. I _think_ he is trying to reach something that is practically untouchable. He's not talking about sales vs craft or the things people do to support themselves or even the public face we put on our motivation to write (sales or art? or some third thing). I _think_ what he meant is that he's feeling an absence of the real reason people write stories (or nonfiction, for that matter), why we bother in the first place.

We think we're lonelier, somehow, in this profession than in others. Maybe because we don't have people to chat with everyday, none of those little, every day interactions between coworkers that make other jobs more pleasant and _seem_ more meaningful. The truth is though, that everybody is lonely. The truth is that stories give us the power _not_ to be so lonely. Because books can help readers step inside someone else's mind more fully than any other kind of communication. Because we can show them almost exactly how we see the world if we do it right. We aren't lonelier than other people, not in the ways that matter. In fact, we make the world a less lonely place overall, every time we write successfully. It doesn't matter what the story or article is, from literary classics to yesterday's funny papers. The point is always to make the reader truly see what we are trying to show them.

It's a powerful feeling. It's a scary feeling. And it's really damn hard to talk about. I always feel like it's simultaneously very wrong to feel that powerful and that the power is itself very fragile. As if it will go away if I talk about it. Or become something evil. Like praying out loud in public. Or being intimate in front of people. Or being judged in any other wholly vulnerable moment. I don't think I'm alone in feeling that way (maybe I am, maybe I'm nuts, but I like to think I'm not alone). So we _don't_ talk about it. It's too precious, too sacred (if you'll pardon my use of the word). We cover it up and talk about how to create more effective stories or what kind of techniques work to help people discover you or other watercooler talk, the same as you would find in any other business.

But what we're really saying, I should say, what I'm really saying, because I shouldn't assume, what I'm really saying by being here, by reading and posting on all these surface conversations, on all these vital, precious day-to-day human interactions, is that I'm glad I'm not the only one trying to wield and control this terrible, wonderful power. That I'm infinitely glad that there are other people out there trying to make the world a less lonely place. A better place, even if that wasn't what we told ourselves we were doing in the first place.

People aren't going to write about that. Sometimes, you can catch a glimpse here and there. But, to the OP, it's there. You just have to have faith that it's there, behind, underneath, inside all the other stuff. That's what I think anyway. It's there, in each of us, even if we're "just" writing for money or "just" writing for art. Even when we don't say it out loud.

That was really, really hard to write. Please don't bash me too hard.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> It has to do with a dangerous attitude that seems to pervade a lot of aspects of this community, which exalts sales as the highest, most absolute measure of indie publishing success.


Okay, you've lost me here. People have been responding that they don't see this. I don't see this. I've lurked/been a member here for over two years, and I've never gotten this attitude from the boards as a whole.

Some individuals may feel this way, and some are completely the opposite. I think you're seeing what you want to see.

I love to write. I've been doing it for more than 40 years now. Since ebooks and self-publishing came along, I've been able to get my work out to readers. I've gotten paid to write my stories, for the first time in my life.

So yes, sales validate me to some extent. But I still write and strive to better my work, even if I'm not making sales. It's not an either/or thing, at least not for me, and not for those who have replied here.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

MegHarris said:


> And I repeat, _what's wrong with that?_ I have kids to support. Other people have said this is their only job and they depend on it to pay their mortgage and other bills. Why on earth is it a problem if some of us are focused, whether to a greater or lesser degree, on making money at this? If it bothers anyone to make money at writing, they're free to give their writing it away. Wattpad is a good alternative, or you can always make your books permafree. But some of us are indeed focused on earning money, which does not mean that we write crap for money, that we're churning out garbage, or that we don't love and value our work and appreciate our readers. It just means that this is our career and we intend to approach it in such a way that may enable us to support ourselves at it.
> 
> A problem and a danger how? How on earth does it endanger anyone, or cause any problems, if I write so I can feed my kids and get them through college? Am I less welcome on KBoards because I'm interested in earning money and post in threads about the topic? Does it make me less of a "real" writer? Does it somehow undercut the rest of the writers here? I can't see how.
> 
> *And now I think I'm done with this thread.* It's beginning to make my hackles go up, and that's never a good thing. Time for a nice Mountain Dew break, I do believe.


This right here. I mentioned this "troubling tendency" to my sister (also an entrepreneur) and her response was, "Why are you arguing with these people? You're not going to make them see it from your perspective because they're not business people, they're just writers." I do often forget that.

So, I'm out too.


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## Katherine Roberts (Apr 4, 2013)

I think there are much easier ways to make money than by writing books.

The way I see it is this:

Fast writer who doesn't mind writing about everything and anything: chase the market, and get rich now (if you're lucky).

Slow writer who is passionate about certain genres/subjects: write what you want, and wait for the market to catch you. Ebooks, having a longer life than print, can lurk in the dusty e-halls at Amazon and other ebook stores until the wind of fashion blows them to the top of the bestseller list. I think of those books as my pension... they might not be earning anything for me now, but in 10 or 20 years who knows? And in the meantime, they are finding niche readers who love them passionately.

As for making a living, it's important for me to earn enough to keep writing. That's why I need £££ (I'm a Brit! ) but if the £££ don't come then I still write. Those who are only doing it for the money will stop writing when they are no longer making any. That's what makes an author different from a publisher.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> And I repeat, _what's wrong with that?_ I have kids to support. Other people have said this is their only job and they depend on it to pay their mortgage and other bills. Why on earth is it a problem if some of us are focused, whether to a greater or lesser degree, on making money at this? If it bothers anyone to make money at writing, they're free to give their writing it away. Wattpad is a good alternative, or you can always make your books permafree. But some of us are indeed focused on earning money, which does not mean that we write crap for money, that we're churning out garbage, or that we don't love and value our work and appreciate our readers. It just means that this is our career and we intend to approach it in such a way that may enable us to support ourselves at it.
> 
> A problem and a danger how? How on earth does it endanger anyone, or cause any problems, if I write so I can feed my kids and get them through college? Am I less welcome on KBoards because I'm interested in earning money and post in threads about the topic? Does it make me less of a "real" writer? Does it somehow undercut the rest of the writers here? I can't see how.
> 
> And now I think I'm done with this thread. It's beginning to make my hackles go up, and that's never a good thing. Time for a nice Mountain Dew break, I do believe.


This. This, this, and this.

I, too, have become angry with this thread. Gods forbid I try to make a living with my passion. Apparently, I'd be more pure if I wrote for love and worked as a wage slave. Writers must suffer, blah blah blah. Sorry, but I like making money doing something I love to do. And I don't need to post endlessly on Writers Cafe about what makes me passionate about writing. That would get pretty boring and it wouldn't help anyone.

Everyone posting here loves writing. That's a given. Why is it in doubt?


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Lady Vine said:


> So, I'm out too.


Ditto. If the troubles and dangers cannot even be identified, what are we doing here?










See ya'll at the next cover reveal.

B.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

If a love of writing is _part_ of your motivation to write, then money isn't your _sole_ motivation. If you don't love your work, I probably won't either. Since I'm more likely to buy someone's book if money isn't the sole reason they write, that would imply that you could make more money by not caring solely about money, which seems a bit paradoxical.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Except that much of what we consider great literature was not financially successful in its time. And many authors never made a living on their work. Poe was the first American writer to actually try to live on his writing (and in general failed miserably despite his wonderful work). Historically, few writers live on their writing. The books that win the Pulitzer and the Booker and such are often not commercially successful book until after they are recognized. And even then, few become household names. Everyone has heard of _50 Shades of Gray_. How many people have heard of _The Round House?_


Oh, starting with Poe, as though that era had today's income-potential for authors to begin with, is not exactly making a fair point. But close to Poe's era, Charles Dickens ended up trying it as well. His lean times were very lean, but it worked for him periodically. (Which is also how he published his tales... periodically... LOL.) Dickens came a bit after Poe, but not by much and they wrote contemporaneously.



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Besides, there is something hypocritical of indies to claim sales and income are the best way of measuring writing success when at the same time whining about how trade publishing is only interested in bestsellers. By virtue of your arguement, shouldn't we all be trying to get trade publishing deals since trade publishers are only interested in bestsellers and therefore such contracts would prove the effectiveness of our writing? You can't simultaneously claim sales and income are the best way to measure success and get mad at trade publishers for using sales and income to measure success.


Although you quoted me, you can't be talking about me here. I don't post lots of "whining" even to start with... Mostly when I post here, it's either advice to others in an area I know fairly well, or I'm making some jokes to lighten up the mood of a thread.

Careful where you point that finger, Julie...  It's all fun-n-games until someone ends up like this:  or this:


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> It's simply a plea to remember that sales aren't everything, or even the most important thing.
> 
> That is all.


Something most of us know, as most of the replies indicate.

You're the one calling the tone/tenor/emphasis in KB "troubling."  That presumes you think a different tone/tenor/emphasis would be superior to what's going on now. Otherwise, why call it "troubling?"


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

What bothers me the most about this thread is the hint of the usual elitism by those who think that writing for love somehow means that their work is of more value (value being measured by whatever stick you prefer) than those who write for money. Just because we do it for the money doesn't mean that we love and care about our work any less than those who consider themselves "passionate artists." When I make the statement that I probably would not write if I wasn't making money has nothing to do with my passion or love of telling stories and sharing them with others. It is simply a practical consideration of our economic times. Time is money, and I have a responsibility to my family to utilize my time in the most efficient manner so as to provide for them.

If I were independently wealthy, I might write all sorts of different things. But I am not. I must continue to put wood on the fire in order to keep the flames burning and keep those I love warm and fed. How is that less passionate?

Hate me if you choose, but I think a lot of us need to get the hell down off our high horses. This so called "attitude" seems very similar to the attitudes of the anti self-publishing crowd that hold themselves higher simply because their manuscript was chosen by a traditional publisher. It's pretty much hogwash. 

And now I'm out.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

I find it very strange that people are getting enraged over this thread. It's making me question whether this is a community that I really want to be a part of.

People are asking "where is this emphasis on $$$?" and "what's wrong with writing for just the $$$?" in practically the same breath, without seeing the contradictoin. They're also assuming that I've said things about art, commerce, and passion that I never have, and getting very prickly about it.

I will say this though:



Lady Vine said:


> they're not business people, they're just writers.


These two things are not mutually exclusive. If anything, that's what I'm trying to get at with this thread. There is a place for business stuff, and it's certainly important, but it's really just a means, not an end. Even if that end is as basic as providing for yourself and your family.

I don't take issue with anyone who wants, as I do, to write full-time as a career. All I'm saying is that there are other, more important things that we shouldn't lose sight of. I doubt very much that any of us are so stupid as to go into writing solely for the $$$. In all this good and necessary talk of sales and marketing and the business side of self-publishing, let's not forget what drove us to start writing in the first place.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

NathanWrann said:


> How come we never read about indies or self-publishers striving to achieve awards?


I can only speak for myself. I don't write stuff you can read about how I strive to achieve awards because:
1) Awards don't put food on the table, gas in the car, or flea ointment on my dogs.
2) Few writer awards accept self-published authors as contestants.
3) As a reader, I don't care about awards.
4) One of the reasons for seeking awards is being offered more writing contracts, but those are no longer necessary now that we can self-publish.
5) I like to think that if I deserve an award, someone will seek me out and give it to me. It shouldn't be about me seeking the award.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> And that's only one reason why the single-minded focus on sales is so dangerous.


And not only troubling, here you call it dangerous.

And I've yet to see anyone standing on a soapbox, hollering, "Publish rubbish! Treat your readers like manure, when you acknowledge them at all! Force folks to one-click your novel at gun-point!"

As I've reiterated, we all know that craft, great stories, and connecting with customers are important, too. They are all elements that lead to the desired result of sales. And sales is important not merely for money... it's proof that what you're doing is working, that more readers ARE finding you and LIKE your stuff.

Unless one desires to meet a bunch of folks who merely offer good lip-service: "Nice to hear your next novel is out!" but fail to act on that lip service: "Too bad I'm not interested in buying it."

I mean, if you're going to rail about a "problem" as "troubling" and "dangerous," Joe, you need to prove the problem exists in the first place.

Show us there are loads of writers here who possess this alleged "single-minded sales obsession" you allege.

Because frankly, I don't see it... other than perhaps from a few newbies who thought the openness of eBooks was the latest path to getting rich quick. And those types tend to fizzle away pretty quickly.

They burst in all loud and showy and insulting to everyone, citing "facts" we all know, then find out it's not easy and we're onto their bluster, and eventually stop posting because for all their sound and fury, they signified nothing.

(And that's opposed to the genuine newbie writers who, as they always have, come in here to learn and tend to integrate themselves slowly and well over time. As has mostly been the case with those who stick around.)

So, yeah, other than newbies who are either still learning or won't be here in a couple months... show me evidence that everyone in here's all about the bling. I find the evidence of your "troubling" "dangerous" mindset to be a bit lacking in substantiation.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

Rykymus said:


> Hate me if you choose, but I think a lot of us need to get the hell down off our high horses. This so called "attitude" seems very similar to the attitudes of the anti self-publishing crowd that hold themselves higher simply because their manuscript was chosen by a traditional publisher. It's pretty much hogwash.


I don't hate you at all. In fact, I've really valued your contributions thus far to the thread. You've given me a lot to think about. I'm not sure what you mean by "get the hell down off [your] high horse," but I assure you, nothing I've said has been meant in an elitist spirit. If anything, I'm the one who has the most to learn here.


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## S. Shine (Jan 14, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I find it very strange that people are getting enraged over this thread. It's making me question whether this is a community that I really want to be a part of.


I have the impression that it is the arrogant and immature way that you come across as that many find enraging. Not saying that to offend you, but it is how you make your way through this thread, unfortunately.



Joe Vasicek said:


> People are asking "where is this emphasis on $$$?" and "what's wrong with writing for just the $$$?" in practically the same breath, without seeing the contradictoin.


There is no contradiction there. Again, it appears you are simply reading things into posts that only exist in your imagination.



Joe Vasicek said:


> I don't take issue with anyone who wants, as I do, to write full-time as a career. All I'm saying is that there are other, more important things that we shouldn't lose sight of. I doubt very much that any of us are so stupid as to go into writing solely for the $$$. In all this good and necessary talk of sales and marketing and the business side of self-publishing, let's not forget what drove us to start writing in the first place.


Do you see the presumptions?


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

I admire Mr. Vasicek for sticking to his guns, but I think he is somewhat missing the point.

He can't speak for everyone or second guess the original or current motivations of other individuals. So I am not exactly sure why he presumes to carry on doing so?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I find it very strange that people are getting enraged over this thread.


I'm not getting enraged, just mildly ticked off. It takes something of real significance to make me enraged. This thread isn't it. 



> It's making me question whether this is a community that I really want to be a part of.


Look, some of us are obviously irritated, but there's no reason for any of us to pick up all our toys and going home. Discussions happen. To quote _Star Trek: TNG_, "When people of good conscience have an honest dispute, we must still sometimes resort to this kind of adversarial system." Just because a post creates a debate, or even argument, is not sufficient reason for any of us to stalk off in a huff for good. If you're really getting annoyed, take a break. Have a Mountain Dew. It helps. 



> I don't take issue with anyone who wants, as I do, to write full-time as a career. All I'm saying is that there are other, more important things that we shouldn't lose sight of. I doubt very much that any of us are so stupid as to go into writing solely for the $$$. In all this good and necessary talk of sales and marketing and the business side of self-publishing, let's not forget what drove us to start writing in the first place.


Well, the thing is that we all seem to be agreeing about this, and yet you keep talking about "danger" and "troubles." I think I'm still having trouble pinning down your argument. It seems like we're all more or less on the same page to me.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I mean, if you're going to rail about a "problem" as "troubling" and "dangerous," Joe, you need to prove the problem exists in the first place.
> 
> Show us there are loads of writers here who possess this alleged "single-minded sales obsession" you allege.


I didn't start this thread to point an accusing finger at anyone. It's entirely possible that this perception exists mostly in my own head, and is not an accurate reflection of the reality. Far be it from me to say what is or isn't in other people's hearts.

But that is the way it comes across to me at times, even on this very thread. How many people have responded to this simple plea with defensiveness and vitriol? What is the source of that insecurity? I'm not trying to tear down this community, but to point out something that I hope others will find helpful. If you don't feel it applies to you, then it probably doesn't.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Careful where you point that finger, *****...  It's all fun-n-games until someone ends up like this:  or this:


It wasn't directed at your personally.  It was just a general comment on some of the conversations that happen around here and elsewhere.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I can't count the amount of times this exact thread has been posted, with only minor variations, over the past few years, usually because somehow people can't wrap their heads around the ideas that if you are self-publishing you have to be both an artist and a publisher, and trying to elevate one over the other is always going to come across as elitist in some way. There are writers who write for money, writers who write for exposure, writers who dream of being famous, writers who want to see their book at B&N and feel validated for all their effort, writers who write because they feel they have something to say, and writers who simply want to be read because it gives them warm fuzzies. The second you try to create a hierarchy of these writers, and ask these forums to comply (writers who write for money are wrong, writers who write for the art are right, please post appropriately), then you're going to tick people off.

Writing is my job. That means there are days where I hate my job. There are days where I love my job, and everything about it. There are days I wish I was paid more. There are days I can hardly even believe how much I make, and wonder if someone's about to pinch me awake. There are days where I think I can't stand this job for another year, and days I hope I have my job thirty years from now. This is a feeling shared by anyone of _any_ occupation. The only dangerous thinking I see is the feeling that somehow we should all behave like special snowflakes, and that if writing is ever a chore, then you must not have been born with that innate talent to do it well. Oh, and never dare say you want money. Or like money. Or even think about money. It's all about the art, man.

Nearly every person here has a book or two in their signature. That means they wrote a book, and now want others to read it. That's a pretty strong driving force in most writers. And you know what happens when you get a ton of authors together, all with a desperate need to have their book read? They talk about ways to get their books into the hands of readers...fancy wordage for a sale or download.

So writers here talk all the time about ways to get more sales? No. Freaking. Duh.

If this wasn't a place full of self-publishers, you'd just change the word 'sales' with whatever is next up on the chain. Go look up how many threads there are in other writer forums about writing the perfect pitch to an agent, perfecting that query letter, making sure your first three sentences grab a slush pile reader's attention, where to submit, how to submit, what markets are accepting...

Side note: I'm aware of one amazingly, shockingly successful indie who did indeed go into this for the money. This person is outselling me by an almost embarrassing amount. Even these assumptions of "no one goes into this for the money" paint an entire community with a single brush, and it's naive to do so.

So in short: self-publishers will talk about self-publishing. The sky is also blue, water is wet, and the mods here all hold cattle prods.


----------



## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I didn't start this thread to point an accusing finger at anyone. It's entirely possible that this perception exists mostly in my own head, and is not an accurate reflection of the reality. Far be it from me to say what is or isn't in other people's hearts.
> 
> But that is the way it comes across to me at times, even on this very thread. How many people have responded to this simple plea with defensiveness and vitriol? What is the source of that insecurity? I'm not trying to tear down this community, but to point out something that I hope others will find helpful. If you don't feel it applies to you, then it probably doesn't.


It's the basis of the plea that I think is important. You are telling a lot of experienced people that you are troubled that they may be losing sight of something that:

a. They might not be at all.
b. They don't care about.
c. They don't want to be lectured about.
d. They do care about and don't feel the need to be told.

Please take this in the correct spirit as I intended when I typed it, sir.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Joe,

I see in another post you asked why we're not talking about awards, too.

Umm... so your solution to talking about money is to talk about winning awards? Doesn't that just further and feed self-obsession?

And really, I've known when every award season is, that's open to indies. Why? Because I've read about them here... fellow KBers post about them all the time. "Hey, this group is accepting manuscripts for Best Indie Novel until the 20th! Get your nominations in!"

If the primary source for hearing about these events is KB Writer's Cafe, how can the "money-is-all-that-matters" problem you cite, still be valid? Are there tons more awards that aren't being mentioned?

Well, if you know of any, post about them! Be part of the solution you want! 

I remember when George Berger, a great writer who used to post here often, popped in and said "Midnight's Tale" had been accepted in the Kindle Single's program, which is an achievement similar to winning an award.

People here held a huge congratulatory thread for his achievement. We all swooned properly and admired the recognition he'd earned.

What's lacking in that? What wasn't "enough" about that?

Joe, you're a personable guy and I enjoy your contributions throughout KB.

But in this post, any time someone tries to pin down what you think might be better, you change the goalposts and say, "That's not it, that's not what I meant."

About the only thing you agree you meant is "money's not everything," which is basic wisdom so simple, you can get it from the average pop tune.

Yes, even those of us who write for a living and want to be able to pay bills from our craft and who do talk about sales and income from time to time, even we know that money's not everything.

Now what?


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Use of the word "insecurity" is a prime example of the attitude that comes across and thus enrages people. It is presumptuous and pompous, to say the least.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

DAWearmouth said:


> I admire Mr. Vasicek for sticking to his guns, but I think he is somewhat missing the point.
> 
> He can't speak for everyone or second guess the original or current motivations of other individuals. So I am not exactly sure why he presumes to carry on doing so?


Maybe that's the problem, then: that people think I'm somehow accusing them of something. Nothing I've said has been meant in an accusatory spirit. I've pointed out a perceived tendency within the community as a whole that I've found disturbing, and shared it in the hope that others might find it helpful, whether or not it's accurate. I'm not saying anything about the individual motivations of anyone specifically.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

DKGould,

This made me shiver! Good job! I think you're on to something. (Now hush!) 



dkgould said:


> I've read all the pages now (unless there's more as I'm posting this) and I think I finally understand what the OP is saying, but I don't want to assume, since there are already scads of replies assuming something that he is not saying. I _think_ he is trying to reach something that is practically untouchable. He's not talking about sales vs craft or the things people do to support themselves or even the public face we put on our motivation to write (sales or art? or some third thing). I _think_ what he meant is that he's feeling an absence of the real reason people write stories (or nonfiction, for that matter), why we bother in the first place.
> 
> We think we're lonelier, somehow, in this profession than in others. Maybe because we don't have people to chat with everyday, none of those little, every day interactions between coworkers that make other jobs more pleasant and _seem_ more meaningful. The truth is though, that everybody is lonely. The truth is that stories give us the power _not_ to be so lonely. Because books can help readers step inside someone else's mind more fully than any other kind of communication. Because we can show them almost exactly how we see the world if we do it right. We aren't lonelier than other people, not in the ways that matter. In fact, we make the world a less lonely place overall, every time we write successfully. It doesn't matter what the story or article is, from literary classics to yesterday's funny papers. The point is always to make the reader truly see what we are trying to show them.
> 
> ...


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Katherine Roberts said:


> I think there are much easier ways to make money than by writing books.
> 
> The way I see it is this:
> 
> ...


Here's an idea. If you don't want to be condescended to by someone who writes quickly and/or makes a lot of money selling books, how about stopping with the nonstop snarky characterizations that everyone who writes faster than you or sells more than you is cranking out inferior drivel. I've got news for all the self appointed art world elitists out there...a lot of the fast, financially successful writers are putting out excellent, well-thought out books.

The funny thing is, the people who sell a lot of books rarely or never put down the people who sell fewer...at least not in any posts I've seen. But this thread alone must have at least 20 posts from people implying or outright proclaiming their superiority simply because they don't make as much money on their books (or because they write more slowly).

I can think of a bunch of people on this board who are making major bank who always seem to have time to help others out. They've behaved a LOT better than some of the self-appointed guardians of so-called artistic integrity who have reared their ugly heads on this thread.

I know some people enjoy assigning some sort of ethical impairment to anyone who talks about or values money, but guess what? That money could be tuitions for kids...or it could allow someone to escape a job they despise. It can pay for a home for a family or savings for retirement. I've never seen anyone on this board shoving their Ferrari in anyone's face, so I'm frankly dumbfounded at the hostility to business-oriented threads. Perhaps before laying down moral and artistic judgments, maybe people should make sure they understand the context. I realize some people consider money to be a code word for unfathomable greed, but I'd wager most of the people around here have rather less ostentatious ambitions. That writer trying to make money may want to escape a hideous job that requires three hours a day of commuting. Or a single parent trying to support children. Or someone struggling with the cost of caring for an elderly parent. I'm sure they all beg forgiveness for faltering under someone's withering orthodoxy on artistic integrity. How dare they spend time learning how to market and sell their work!

Also, business-oriented information is much harder to come by in general than "craft" advice. You can't swing a dead cat on the Internet without hitting someone anxious to tell you how they think you should write. If I have to read one more pontificating piece of nonsense from some arrogant fop telling me not to use adjectives or some other piece of brilliant craft advice, I'm going to barf. But I just ignore that stuff; I don't feel threatened by it. Getting information on sales levels, marketing, etc., however, is like trying to steal nuclear launch codes...almost impossible. The people on here have tended to be remarkably willing to help newer authors with all of that. It is incalculably valuable to anyone interested in the career side of things to have access to people who have been successfully doing this. The willingness of the most financially successful (note I said "financially"...hopefully we can spare anyone taking offense and arguing there are more ways to be successful) people on here to help others is fairly unprecedented. There are very few ways to get reliable advice of this sort that isn't coming from someone trying to sell you something.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> M*aybe that's the problem, then: that people think I'm somehow accusing them of something. * Nothing I've said has been meant in an accusatory spirit. I've pointed out a perceived tendency within the community as a whole that I've found disturbing, and shared it in the hope that others might find it helpful, whether or not it's accurate. I'm not saying anything about the individual motivations of anyone specifically.


I don't think people are taking it as any kind of accusation, it's probably more the idea of being told what their moral focus should be. Everyone is different, sir. There isn't a right and wrong.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I didn't start this thread to point an accusing finger at anyone. It's entirely possible that this perception exists mostly in my own head, and is not an accurate reflection of the reality. Far be it from me to say what is or isn't in other people's hearts.
> 
> But that is the way it comes across to me at times, even on this very thread. How many people have responded to this simple plea with defensiveness and vitriol? What is the source of that insecurity? I'm not trying to tear down this community, but to point out something that I hope others will find helpful. If you don't feel it applies to you, then it probably doesn't.


Joe,

From your work and the way you present yourself here in KB, I know you to be a smart fella and a solid writer.

So I really shouldn't have to say this, but: words mean things.

You've frequently used words like "problem," "troubling" and "dangerous" in reference to your observation of "single-minded money obsession" here at KB.

Surely you understand concepts like "the accusatory voice." Which is what that ends up sounding like, to most folks. An accusation.

Might that explain the "defensive" nature of some of the replies? Rather than some "admission of guilt?"

It's fair to make an observation; but about 10 pages deep into the topic, ought we not be discussing the solution, rather than continually begging the question?

I think we'd all be interested to know what you think would help improve things or be better. Share those thoughts.

Better still, EMBODY those thoughts. Lead by example. Post the sort of topics and replies you'd prefer to see. Be your own solution!

We're a big enough community that I'm sure most of us will read and comment with interest.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Should I be making popcorn?


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Joe,
> 
> I see in another post you asked why we're not talking about awards, too.
> 
> Umm... so your solution to talking about money is to talk about winning awards? Doesn't that just further and feed self-obsession?


I never said anything about awards on this thread. That was a tangent by someone else. My personal attitude towards awards is actually kind of apathetic.



> But in this post, any time someone tries to pin down what you think might be better, you change the goalposts and say, "That's not it, that's not what I meant."


Can you blame me, though? About 90% of the stuff on this thread that people think I've said, and accused me of saying, are not things that I've actually said. The root of what I'm trying to say here is this:



> "money's not everything,"


and yes, that's rather simplistic, but it's also easy to forget in all this obsession over sales and everything else.

ETA:



CraigInTwinCities said:


> You've frequently used words like "problem," "troubling" and "dangerous" in reference to your observation of "single-minded money obsession" here at KB.
> 
> Surely you understand concepts like "the accusatory voice." Which is what that ends up sounding like, to most folks. An accusation.
> 
> Might that explain the "defensive" nature of some of the replies? Rather than some "admission of guilt?"


Fair enough. I guess I should clarify that these are things that I personally find dangerous, and that I worry will become a problem for my own career. Naturally, in the spirit of sharing, I though I'd point it out in case others are in a similar situation.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I have a t-shirt (I happen to be wearing it today) with Han Solo, and beneath Han is the words,_ I'm in it for the money_. I thought it was kind of amusing when I bought it, because yes, I am in it for the money. But is that all that motivates me? Nope. I wrote my first book, a historical romance, when I was twenty-five and my husband was in the hospital with cancer for the first time. Writing helped me get through all the stress and the fear, and I poured out all my anguish into my characters. Fifteen years later, I wrote other books to help me get through losing my husband to a second type of cancer. I wrote them to make money, because I'd been a stay-at-home mom for years and years and couldn't see myself going back into insurance at that point, but I also poured my heart and soul into them, because I'm a writer and that's what I do.

Writing is my therapy and my consolation and my amusement, and it's also how I pay the bills. I honestly don't see why this should trouble anyone.



> "money's not everything,"


I agree. Is there a single post on this thread where someone has said that money _is _everything? If there is, I haven't seen it.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Rykymus said:


> Should I be making popcorn?


Only if it's meaningful popcorn.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Should I be making popcorn?


Making good popcorn is an...art.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

MegHarris said:


> Is there a single post on this thread where someone has said that money _is _everything? If there is, I haven't seen it.


Amen and amen.

And with that... I'm going back to my contract editorial work and my own writing.

Because, shockingly,  while money doesn't mean "everything" to me... the folks I owe it to are somehow not quite so altruistic and idealistic.

And even more  shockingly  ... no one seems willing to pay me for sharing my wisdom (all 2 cents of it) here in these threads...

So, time to go make some money by doing some things that DO pay...


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> I have a t-shirt (I happen to be wearing it today) with Han Solo, and beneath Han is the words,_ I'm in it for the money_. I thought it was kind of amusing when I bought it, because yes, I am in it for the money. But is that all that motivates me? Nope. I wrote my first book, a historical romance, when I was twenty-five and my husband was in the hospital with cancer for the first time. Writing helped me get through all the stress and the fear, and I poured out all my anguish into my characters. Fifteen years later, I wrote other books to help me get through losing my husband to a second type of cancer. I wrote them to make money, because I'd been a stay-at-home mom for years and years and couldn't see myself going back into insurance at that point, but I also poured my heart and soul into them, because I'm a writer and that's what I do.
> 
> Writing is my therapy and my consolation and my amusement, and it's also how I pay the bills. I honestly don't see why this should trouble anyone.


It doesn't trouble me at all. In fact, it's a good example of the kind of balance that I'm personally trying to strive for.

Maybe this isn't as much of a problem in this community as I'd first thought. It would certainly please me to be proven wrong on that count.

I do think that each of us should try to stay in touch with the reasons why we started writing in the first place, though--whatever those reasons may be. Not because it's morally right or correct, but because if we don't, we risk losing that passion and burning out.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

If anyone thinks there are too many threads about sales and money and too few about craft, the solution is obvious. Start more conversations about craft.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Caddy said:


> Making good popcorn is an...art.


And popcorn has NO GLUTEN!! 

(Unless you use a nasty gluten-containing topping)

Neither does posting about sales, promotions, procrastination or my missing Oxford comma.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> This has nothing to do with aspirations. Not sure where you're getting that from. It has to do with a dangerous attitude that seems to pervade a lot of aspects of this community, which exalts sales as the highest, most absolute measure of indie publishing success.


Actually this is a good and important point, and the answer is, yes indeed, indies have to have such a "crass" measure of success as sales, because face it, they (we) are still trying to prove ourselves against traditional publishing!

Trad pub has it all -- acclaim (no matter how relative), the backing of corporations, major trade review publications devoted to the book business, and access to awards (given the publisher doles out entrance fee money which is almost always significant, and hence prohibitive for individuals).

What does indie have? The ability to say, "Hey, look, guess what? We are not all crap! Someone wants us! We ARE selling!"


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I really don't understand the "dangerous" comment. Dangerous in what way? Does that mean writers might be tempted to write porn or use naughty words in order to chase sales?


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> I really don't understand the "dangerous" comment. Dangerous in what way? Does that mean writers might be tempted to write porn or use naughty words in order to chase sales?


The failure to achieve sales will lead to more drinking, and obviously writers who drink more tend to be the tortured souls who write the _real_ literature to be embraced. That's the real danger. We might lose all the talented genre writers.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Most of us (including me) have aspirations to turn this writing gig into our main careers and quit or scale back on the day job(s). I think those goals are laudable, and I hope that most if not all of us are able to make it. However, I wonder if in our enthusiasm to build our careers, we're putting too much emphasis on monetary measures of success, like sales, and not enough emphasis on building connections with readers, writing meaningful stories, or reconnecting with the things that made us write in the first place.
> 
> Sales and income are certainly important, but I cannot believe that they are the most important thing. They're certainly not the reasons I started writing in the first place. And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.
> 
> Not sure if I have a solution to this problem, but it's a troubling tendency in this community that I wanted to point out.


Saying that discussions on sales and income in the Writer's Cafe is a disturbing trend is like saying that young girls loving Justin Bieber is a disturbing trend. This is not a workshopping forum dedicated to discussing the craft, and as far as I know, it never has been.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> The failure to achieve sales will lead to more drinking, and obviously writers who drink more tend to be the tortured souls who write the _real_ literature to be embraced. That's the real danger. We might lose all the talented genre writers.


Don't forget a dangerous coffee addiction.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I could make a thread whining about how much blasted research it takes to write historical fiction. Would that count as a less dangerous thread? But then people would only ask why I didn't write something else or tell me to just ignore the history part of historical fiction. 

Or I could start a thread about the evils of procrastination for which I find WC so helpful.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> Exactly this.
> 
> There's a constant drumbeat of "Self Publishing increases diversity because the Traditional Publishers ONLY want books that make money!!!" but the reality is that it might actually be the other way around. Self Publishers (as evidenced in this thread) are really after the money and not the diversity (or even quality) of the marketplace.
> 
> ...


Goodness, what a long extrapolation in the wrong direction...

Who says we don't strive for high levels of achievement and awards? We totally do.

But first we need a basic income flow. A trad pub gives you an advance (even if broken up into three lousy parts, still you get something up front to pay your bills).

An indie has to make money right out of the gate... or back to flipping burgers she goes, with only dreams of critically acclaimed masterpieces in some distant future when they can afford it.

So yeah, we worry about sales! 

Once we reach a certain basic self-sustaining income point, then we can be free enough to do everything we've ever wanted with our own writing --way more than that same poor trad pubber who is now locked into a rigid contract with all kinds of limiting options on other (future) work.

So, think of it as a staircase with many steps. Once you reach the first landing, then you can keep climbing to greater creative heights, and the sky's the limit.

But first, you gotta take care of those first few stairs covered in unpaid bills.


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

I think you can relax, if your fear is that the WC authors will turn into evilgreedyrichsunzobitches.  If any of us were that obsessed with money, we'd be surgeons or investment bankers, or serial divorcers of evilgreedyrichsunzobitches.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Guys, guys, guys.
> 
> This is not a call for more "craft" threads. I have no idea where you guys are getting that from (well, some idea, but it's still putting words in my mouth). It's not a call for changing any of the content or layout of this forum, or asking certain people to leave, or anything like that.
> 
> ...


Okay, Joe, seriously, but... but... *we already know that*. No need for the plea. We really do!

That's all.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

Greg Banks said:


> Saying that discussions on sales and income in the Writer's Cafe is a disturbing trend is like saying that young girls loving Justin Bieber is a disturbing trend.


Are you saying it isn't? 



MichaelWallace said:


> I really don't understand the "dangerous" comment. Dangerous in what way?


Dangerous in the sense that losing sight of the thing that drove you to write in the first place will render the whole endeavor empty and meaningless. Dangerous in the sense that success can be just as dangerous as failure. Dangerous in the sense of losing your creative spark, and turning your writing career into just another job to dread.



brendajcarlton said:


> I think you can relax, if your fear is that the WC authors will turn into evilgreedyrichsunzobitches. If any of us were that obsessed with money, we'd be surgeons or investment bankers, or serial divorcers of evilgreedyrichsunzobitches.


One can only hope.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Are you saying it isn't?


Ooh, good point!


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

brendajcarlton said:


> I think you can relax, if your fear is that the WC authors will turn into evilgreedyrichsunzobitches. If any of us were that obsessed with money, we'd be surgeons or investment bankers, or serial divorcers of evilgreedyrichsunzobitches.


Ahem... Why would I want to be a surgeon or investment banker and take a cut in pay?

Oh, now, darn it... I just went and did what the OP was talking about.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

I've read this whole thread, and I have to admit I still don't have a clue what the "problem" is. I haven't seen the OP define it, give any examples, or attempt to suggest any solutions. The people who have suggested solutions, such as the OP starting more craft threads, got "That's not it; you don't get it" as a response.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> could make a thread whining about how much blasted research it takes to write historical fiction. Would that count as a less dangerous thread? But then people would only ask why I didn't write something else or tell me to just ignore the history part of historical fiction.


That would perhaps start a new genre: Hysterical fiction.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2013)

dkgould said:


> I've read all the pages now (unless there's more as I'm posting this) and I think I finally understand what the OP is saying, but I don't want to assume, since there are already scads of replies assuming something that he is not saying. I _think_ he is trying to reach something that is practically untouchable. He's not talking about sales vs craft or the things people do to support themselves or even the public face we put on our motivation to write (sales or art? or some third thing). I _think_ what he meant is that he's feeling an absence of the real reason people write stories (or nonfiction, for that matter), why we bother in the first place.
> 
> We think we're lonelier, somehow, in this profession than in others. Maybe because we don't have people to chat with everyday, none of those little, every day interactions between coworkers that make other jobs more pleasant and _seem_ more meaningful. The truth is though, that everybody is lonely. The truth is that stories give us the power _not_ to be so lonely. Because books can help readers step inside someone else's mind more fully than any other kind of communication. Because we can show them almost exactly how we see the world if we do it right. We aren't lonelier than other people, not in the ways that matter. In fact, we make the world a less lonely place overall, every time we write successfully. It doesn't matter what the story or article is, from literary classics to yesterday's funny papers. The point is always to make the reader truly see what we are trying to show them.
> 
> ...


I didn't get around to saying this earlier, but thanks for sharing that. I'm not sure how much we consciously try to cover it up, but I do think there's a tendency to forget or overlook it.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Caddy said:


> That would perhaps start a new genre: Hysterical fiction.


I've seen some hysterical fiction out there.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> So in short: self-publishers will talk about self-publishing. The sky is also blue, water is wet, *and the mods here all hold cattle prods.*


No, really, it's just me. Though I do loan mine out occasionally to the other mods. 

Betsy


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> Don't forget a dangerous coffee addiction.


No coffee or drinking alcohol addiction here...just Rockstar.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

MaryMcDonald said:


> No coffee or drinking alcohol addiction here...just Rockstar.


Video games are the new crack cocaine.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

dkgould said:


> I've read all the pages now (unless there's more as I'm posting this) and I think I finally understand what the OP is saying, but I don't want to assume, since there are already scads of replies assuming something that he is not saying. I _think_ he is trying to reach something that is practically untouchable. He's not talking about sales vs craft or the things people do to support themselves or even the public face we put on our motivation to write (sales or art? or some third thing). I _think_ what he meant is that he's feeling an absence of the real reason people write stories (or nonfiction, for that matter), why we bother in the first place.
> 
> We think we're lonelier, somehow, in this profession than in others. Maybe because we don't have people to chat with everyday, none of those little, every day interactions between coworkers that make other jobs more pleasant and _seem_ more meaningful. The truth is though, that everybody is lonely. The truth is that stories give us the power _not_ to be so lonely. Because books can help readers step inside someone else's mind more fully than any other kind of communication. Because we can show them almost exactly how we see the world if we do it right. We aren't lonelier than other people, not in the ways that matter. In fact, we make the world a less lonely place overall, every time we write successfully. It doesn't matter what the story or article is, from literary classics to yesterday's funny papers. The point is always to make the reader truly see what we are trying to show them.
> 
> ...


Actually this is all good, but again, it's all just such a given, we don't need to talk about it because it's always right there under the surface in every writer, and for that matter any creator.

Imagine being at a beach filled with sunbathers, on a sunny day.

What if one of them suddenly pronounced: "I find it highly disturbing that we are not appreciating the sun and its role in nourishing all existence and being the source of all life on earth and the underlying reason we are all here."

How do the sunbathers respond to that?

How does anyone?

*grin*


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

* peeks in, shakes head *

To paraphrase a radio commercial I once heard...

"If you wrote the best-written, most entertaining novel in the world, and no one knew it existed, all you'd have is... the best-written, most entertaining novel in the world."

Or, as one of the original Two Davids put it a bit ago:

Self-publishers talk about self-publishing.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

The great philosopher Confucius once said an opinion is like a penis, it’s okay to have one, it’s okay to be proud of it, hell, it’s even okay to play with it in your own time. But it’s not okay to whip it out in public and try to shove it down the throats of others.

I tend to agree with him (although he didn't actually say it at all).


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

If I EVER develop an addiction to Justin Bieber, someone, please, shoot me.

(*Leaves to make more popcorn*)


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I do think that each of us should try to stay in touch with the reasons why we started writing in the first place, though--whatever those reasons may be. Not because it's morally right or correct, but because if we don't, we risk losing that passion and burning out.


Wow, Joe, my friend, I think I suddenly understand what this is about.

It's not us, it's *you*.

Maybe you are going through something in your own life right now that is making you existentially question the value of some things and look back upon your own actions and or writing with a different kind of scrutiny.

In that case, no problem!

Maybe *some of us here* are also "feeling" it, just like you.

But you have to remember -- not all of us are.

Some of may be, but it's not a general thing you can apply to the zeitgeist here.

However, best of luck on your own introspective period! We all experience it at some point or another, question our life's nitty gritty stuff in details. You will come out stronger after you've reevaluated things for yourself.

Cheers!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> " In all this good and necessary talk of sales and marketing and the business side of self-publishing, let's not forget what drove us to start writing in the first place."


Why not forget? What drove us into writing?


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Caddy said:


> That would perhaps start a new genre: Hysterical fiction.


LOL! I love this! Okay, now I must write something in this new genre of hysterical fiction.

Wait... will it require a Victorian vibrator prototype?


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Why not forget? What drove us into writing?


I have no idea what drove you or Mr. Vasicek into writing. I wouldn't say I was driven into anything, I chose to do it.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

It seems like the one thing most of us can agree on, at least, is that writing what you love and making money aren't mutually exclusive. We can care about both.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

DAWearmouth said:


> I have no idea what drove you or Mr. Vasicek into writing. I wouldn't say I was driven into anything, I chose to do it.


I'd love to hear about what drove me since I didn't know I was driven. I sure don't know what drove anyone else. I don't know if anything drove them. Maybe they just decided to write a book. For any given author, I figure there is only one person who knows. Why presume an author was driven?

I suspect the notion of a driven artist standing above the lumpen just jumped the shark.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Poverty drove me to writing and self-publishing. I would very much like to forget about that.

As such, I doubt that what drives me to write well ever be lost. Poverty sucks.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Mods - I ask that you seriously discuss banning META threads entirely. They add nothing to Kboards and personally I've never seen them produce a good outcome on any site ever."


But people are voting with their feet. This is a very popular thread. Let the good times roll.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

Rykymus said:


> Poverty drove me to writing and self-publishing. I would very much like to forget about that.
> 
> As such, I doubt that what drives me to write well ever be lost. Poverty sucks.


After reading your post Mr. Brown, I enjoy knowing you have had success. Oh...hang on, I read about that on sales threads.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Dangerous in the sense that losing sight of the thing that drove you to write in the first place will render the whole endeavor empty and meaningless. Dangerous in the sense that success can be just as dangerous as failure. Dangerous in the sense of losing your creative spark, and turning your writing career into just another job to dread.


If "you" are talking about "yourself" that's fine. This thread exploded because "you" are projecting "your" insecurities onto an entire community. Guess what? People don't share them, and it ticks them off that you assume they do. Sorry to be blunt, but dude, you beat the dead horse into glue.

Let me edit your post.



Joe Vasicek said:


> Dangerous in the sense that losing sight of the thing that drove *Joe* to write in the first place will render the whole endeavor empty and meaningless. Dangerous in the sense that *Joe's* success can be just as dangerous as *Joe's* failure. Dangerous in the sense of losing *Joe's* creative spark, and turning *Joe's* writing career into just another job to dread.


First, quit jobs you dread. Life is too short.

Second, I've never felt threatened that a paycheck would cost me my "creative spark" and I'm wondering if you are trying cheap gimmicks to make a quick buck? Are you cutting corners? Are you letting yourself down? Are you assuming everyone with more success does the same? Because that's wonky.

Third, I write to my own standards. I produce the best work that I can. If it sells great, if not, at least I tried. I don't worry about your dangers at all. I sleep well and enjoy writing. Mixing commerce and art doesn't give me anxiety. Your assumption that it does, or that it should, or that I'm blind to these "dangers" is self indulgent. You don't know me. Your insecurities are not the same as mine.

Finally, you talk about perceptions in the community, and you use a passive voice to do it. These are your interpretations. You hide behind pronouns and passive voice, but they are your interpretations. This is a lame political trick. They say "taxes were raised" instead of "I voted for higher taxes" so they don't look bad. You are doing the same thing. If you say "I don't like sales threads," I can respect that. I don't agree, but I respect an honest sentence. When you say there are 'troubling' trends, and authors are in 'danger' from 'obsessing' over sales, that is all false. That is your interpretation, and a cheap writing trick. Cable news pundits have mastered that trick, sinister music and all. Where is the proof? Lately, I think cover posts and blurb posts outnumber sales posts 5-1.

I didn't count or anything, just a guess 

The only vibe I get from this community is that self publishing is hard. Big time sellers or small time newbs (myself), struggle to do it well. One book finds an audience when another doesn't, and it is hard to say why. People share their successes and failures to make it less hard. And that's pretty awesome.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I'd love to hear about what drove me since I didn't know I was driven. I sure don't know what drove anyone else. I don't know if anything drove them. Maybe they just decided to write a book. For any given author, I figure there is only one person who knows.* Why presume an author was driven?*


I have no idea. I'm just your average Joe who wanted to write an original book in a genre that I enjoy. Perhaps the original poster is projecting his own experiences onto others?

Edit: Beaten to it by a far more detailed post.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

Dalya said:


> Then I saw all these other amazing indies with their publishing empires, and I decided maybe it was time to have a Big Dream for the first time in my life. Up until recently, my dreams were Modest and Achievable, because I didn't think I deserved Big Dreams.


Love that you're dreaming big, Dayla. I feel the same way. I'm so inspired by the incredible success stories I read about here. It makes you believe that _anything_ is possible! 

I can only speak for myself when I say that every time I sit down to write I'm thinking about my readers. I couldn't do what I love without them and I'll never forget that. Making connections with them and showing gratitude is what it's all about for me. I think most writers feel the same way. I've read plenty of threads around here where the authors who have 'built their empires' express their gratitude to their readers, first and foremost.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

*munches popcorn* (Yes, mods eat popcorn, too. We eat a LOT of popcorn. Harvey has an old-fashioned popcorn cart in the admin cave just for us. The cabana boys all receive training.)










I applaud that this thread has gone on for 12 pages and I've only had to check the charging status of my cattle prod a couple of times.

Emily--you're absolutely right--if people want other types of discussions, they should start them. The flip side is, if you don't like a conversation, avoid it.  And, FYI, "troll" is considered a four letter word here--it's too easy to toss at someone. Thanks!

Betsy
*waves for more butter*


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

DDark said:


>


See, that's what I've been telling people!

*gets ready to hug DDark.*


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

And now this thread has turned spicy. *thumbs up*


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

> I hate to say it ... this type of post is a very subtle form of the concern troll - a person who raises issues with policies, attitudes or behaviors of others on a forum and yet has no solution and will not engage with anyone who offers solutions. Their position is only vaguely defined and so when it is attacked they can hedge and move it around.


*Yes.* I got a definite vibe of judgmentalism toward writers who had different goals and aspirations than the OP.



emilycantore said:


> And right here is why META threads are complete and utter garbage and should be outright banned.


*No.* Nobody forces anyone to participate in this kind of thread. So long as people are civil, I think this sort of discussion should be allowed.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Wait... will it require a Victorian vibrator prototype?


Yes, one that uses water and needs a "proper doctor" to operate it!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Caddy said:


> Yes, one that uses water and needs a "proper doctor" to operate it!


A doctor or THE doctor?


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I also applaud how this thread has gone on so long while remaining not only civil, but actually friendly.

Joe's been around here a while, I think, but because I was away for a year and a half, I maybe can see something he can't:

The reason I left is because at that time, when people talked about craft, just among people who were actually interested in talking about craft, others would jump in and turn it into a negative version of this conversation. If you'll note, this conversation isn't about craft -- it's about values and community. It was downright frustrating trying to talk about writing because there would always be a not-so-hostlile takeover by people who didn't want to talk about writing and took it personally that someone else did.

It isn't like that any more. That is, when you talk about writing and craft issues, those conversations just go on as normal. This conversation only happens when people actually bring up the "craft vs. money" subject. And while people still seem to take it kinda personally, and get a little defensive, it's still all friendly, respectful and not _offensive_.

All the same, I think conversations like this still need to happen, because underneath it all, I think those old conversations have a legacy effect here. The emphasis in this place isn't because people aren't interested in craft. It's because old flamewars have created a habit of avoiding such topics. Conversations like this shake off the old.

As an illustration, I was going to use an example similar to Vera's one about sunbathers: Actually this group still doesn't react the way sunbathers would react to the opening post here. If someone said they were disturbed that there wasn't enough interest on this beach about the nurturing value of the suns rays.... sunbathers would not jump up and defend themselves. Some would agree and start a conversation, some would politely say "yeah, sure" and go back to what they were doing, and others would ignore it altogether.

Until we can get that blase reaction, we need to keep having this conversation -- once in a while.

But please, not too often. It makes my head hurt.

Camille


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## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

Couldn't be more of a newbie/lurker around here than I am... and I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who shares all their sales data/experience/advice with people like me.

I know how to write. I have many places to meet with other writers to discuss the craft. But this is the only place I have ever found that actually teaches how to market my work. And I want to market my work. I want to write excellent books that I love and some day make zillions of dollars selling boat-loads of them. Okay... really I just want to make a decent living writing what I enjoy. And what's wrong with that?

Should I pretend that I'm more interested in being given a stamp of approval by some arty award committee? I'm not. I judge the value of my work and when I consider it worthy I'll put it out there for readers to judge. And they award what _they_ consider quality with their hard earned dollars. Best award ever.

Maybe I shouldn't be so open since this is one of my first posts, but I just wanted to say that I could not possibly be more grateful to all of you for your generous marketing information that includes hard facts, numbers, and concrete strategies for sales. It's why I'm here.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Twelve pages and no one's said anything in defense of marketing as its own craft?

Marketing is my background. At the multi-billion-dollar corporations I worked for, results were always measured and the positive ones rewarded. Thinking outside the box and envelope-pushing were often required for positive results. The carrot (mostly bonu$e$) pushed me to become better at my job. Complacency didn't earn a carrot.

I'm fortunate now to be managing a number of books for authors who've learned the craft and whose books have already sold millions - let me repeat: _millions _ - in print. They've achieved the highest awards their genre has to offer, some multiple times. They don't _have _ to write another word - and yet they do because they can't help themselves. Because they're still driven to put pen to paper. But they are also smart business women, and sales of their backlist books ARE their reason for self-publishing them.

When I write, I produce the best story I can and hope it entertains, enlightens or otherwise helps pass a rainy afternoon. But that's only half of what self-publishing has come to mean _for me_. It's given me a way to marry up my marketing and project management experience with my love of story telling. And half of self-publishing _for me_ is the fun of pushing for sales, for rank, for visibility. I delight in challenging myself with every promotion, whether I'm pushing my personal book up to #1 in the free store or pushing someone else's book into the Top 50 paid.

Marketing ebooks is a craft I want to get better at as much as I want to better my story-telling skills. That anyone would criticize my desire to succeed in both, and refer to my delight in chasing the carrot as _troubling _ and _dangerous _ rather than the _art form _ it certainly is ... well, they simply may not recognize that talking about sales strategies and earnings _is_, after all, talking about craft.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> A doctor or THE doctor?


OMG! The sonic screwdriver is... a very special vibrator!


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## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Marketing ebooks is a craft I want to get better at as much as I want to better my story-telling skills. That anyone would criticize my desire to succeed in both, and refer to my delight in chasing the carrot as _troubling _ and _dangerous _ rather than the _art form _ it certainly is ... well, they simply may not recognize that talking about sales strategies and earnings _is_, after all, talking about craft.


What I was trying to say but said much better. Thanks.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

You know, I don't post much, mainly because I'm busy writing. When I do post, I try to make it something that will help my peers with the business of selling books, or with the philosophy of the separation of church and state - of being an author, and a publisher. I share this because it's the only way that's made sense for me to build a commercial enterprise in a relatively short time that sells what I write, out of love.

It's funny, because the only real craft discussions I've had lately involve disbelief over the speed with which I turn out novels. Explaining the mechanics of it is about how far I get into craft - if I want to read about craft, I'll go read Lawrence Block's excellent books on the topic. Again, it's not because I'm uninterested. I simply don't have the time to wax eloquent about why crafting a sentence or story a certain way resonates more with my readers than other approaches. For me, the business of learning one's craft comes down to two things: writing about a million words, and reading huge amounts of good writing. Given that I've passed the three million word mark, while I love each and every one of them, I'm not as fascinated by each usage as I once was. I liken writing to prayer - everyone's got to develop their own personal style that best represents their voice. Finding that voice is a highly individual journey, and while we can give tips or argue over tactics, in the end our job as the writer is to master our craft to the extent it can be, and develop that voice. And developing that voice is different for each of us. As are our voices.

I don't find this forum particularly offensive due to its focus on what does and doesn't work on the publishing side. I also don't see why, if there's an interest in more craft discussions, those with that interest don't create threads that reflect their interest. I won't be clicking on them, but kindred spirits will.


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## robertduperre (Jun 13, 2010)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Twelve pages and no one's said anything in defense of marketing as its own craft?
> 
> Marketing is my background. At the multi-billion-dollar corporations I worked for, results were always measured and the positive ones rewarded. Thinking outside the box and envelope-pushing were often required for positive results. The carrot (mostly bonu$e$) pushed me to become better at my job. Complacency didn't earn a carrot.
> 
> ...


Phoenix, you make me swoon when you talk business.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Writing is exercising the imagination.
Marketing--in this weird and wonderful eWorld--is exercising the imagination. 

I don't see anything troubling, dangerous, or unbalanced about either one. As independent authors we must swing from one to the other or we might as well put our tomes neatly in a bottom drawer, or the trunk of that very old car in our driveway that we can't afford to buy insurance for. 

I endlessly appreciate the posts on the business side of epublishing on Kboards.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

DDark said:


>


I can't wait to hear about the Amazon advertising they send you after that comment.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2013)

It's very interesting to compare what people are saying publicly here to what they're saying privately via PM.  Either way, I'm glad to see that it's sparked so much discussion and awareness of this issue.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "It's very interesting to compare what people are saying publicly here to what they're saying privately via PM. "


What's the difference between the public comments and private PMs?



> "Either way, I'm glad to see that it's sparked so much discussion and awareness of this issue."


Looks like many people don't think there is an issue.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Joe Vasicek said:


> It's very interesting to compare what people are saying publicly here to what they're saying privately via PM. Either way, I'm glad to see that it's sparked so much discussion and awareness of this issue.


Are you saying that the same people who are posting publicly are PM'ing you and saying something different? Or that different people (than those who posted) are PM'ing you with different takes?

Betsy


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

That's another old school message board tactic.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Looks like many people don't think there is an issue.


If you are talking about the people who never posted here at all, I'd agree with you. But given what a big deal people make of this not being a big deal.... it's definitely still an issue. I think we're all looking forward to the day when it isn't.

Camille


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> It's very interesting to compare what people are saying publicly here to what they're saying privately via PM. Either way, *I'm glad to see that it's sparked so much discussion and awareness of this issue.*


Time to post one of these and call it a day.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I do think that each of us should try to stay in touch with the reasons why we started writing in the first place, though--whatever those reasons may be.


I started writing to win a bet with my sister. Leaving that reason behind as soon as the bet was won seemed like the right thing to do years ago and still does.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

KJCOLT said:


> Sheesh, your books are multiplying in your signature !! I remember when there were just a few.


I'm doing my best!

And that reminds me, I need to add one.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

And the truth is revealed.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

emilycantore said:


> Err... right. So are you implying that now your position has been pounded on that there are secretly a bunch of people who agree with you but are posting otherwise?
> 
> "This issue" exists only in your mind, my friend. I'm not seeing anyone saying "By gad, you're right! We have lost sight of the craft and talk too much about sales and money as though they're the only thing that matters." I mean, did even a single person actually come out and agree with you? All I see are people trying to interpret your vague stance into something a little kinder.
> 
> ...


Sigh.

This was unnecessary and unfair. And an inaccurate attack on what he was trying to say. It's also completely inaccurate to say that he got no support in this thread. I'll stand up and say it outright:

HE'S RIGHT. I support what he has to say. It's just not as bad as he worries it is. (And it's getting better all the time.)

Furthermore, I don't know what private DMs he has got, but I will also testify that in previous threads on this subject, I certainly got DMs and private emails from people who think this group has an issue with attitude toward writing. (And I'm sure it's true of any controversial position anyone might take -- there are always people who will DM support.)

But this response: This is the kind of personal attack on character that drives people to use DMs or private email. It's disrespectful. There is no need for it.

Let's not be that kind of group, okay?

Camille


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Sigh.
> 
> This was unnecessary and unfair. And an inaccurate attack on what he was trying to say. It's also completely inaccurate to say that he got no support in this thread. I'll stand up and say it outright:
> 
> ...


No, actually we don't have an _issue_. Now you and Joe apparently have an issue with us, but that is rather a different thing.

We are the kind of group we are--and pretty non-homogeneous we are, as a matter of fact. I don't know what "that kind of group" is, but I hardly think you can demand that everyone who doesn't think that discussing sales and promotions is somehow "dangerous" should change what they post.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> No, actually we don't have an _issue_. Now you and Joe apparently have an issue with us, but that is rather a different thing.
> 
> We are the kind of group we are--and pretty non-homogeneous we are, as a matter of fact. I don't know what "that kind of group" is, but I hardly think you can demand that everyone who doesn't think that discussing sales and promotions is somehow "dangerous" should change what they post.


Again, total miss-characterization of everything he said. There is no need to be nasty to him. He did not say anything mean to you or about anybody. He did not say you shouldn't talk about money. He never said it was "dangerous" (where did you get THAT quote?) to talk about sales or promotions, nor did he ask anybody to change what they post.

He just expressed a desire to talk about something else too, and was a little troubled by how hard it is to talk about here.

And this kind of knee-jerk response is actually, imho, the root of what he's seeing.

It's an attack on people who want to do something other than what you want to do. Nobody's allowed to want something else. Nobody's allowed to talk about something else. If they do, they'll be firmly prevented, and if they don't stop, attacked and intimidated. So of COURSE people who want to talk about craft are reluctant.

I thought this group was done with that. I thought it was getting better.... I guess I was wrong.

Camille


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

I like the fact that Writer's Cafe focuses on "the business aspects of writing."  I don't know of a single source that is better doing that than this one.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> Sigh.
> 
> This was unnecessary and unfair. And an inaccurate attack on what he was trying to say. It's also completely inaccurate to say that he got no support in this thread. I'll stand up and say it outright:
> 
> ...


I don't think it's disrespectful at all. I'd like data to backup this supposed issue. What percentage of posts are about money? What percentage are about covers, blurbs, reviews and marketing? What percentage are about Wool? I mean, if it is an issue, lets see some facts. You can't just say there is an issue. 4,780 views of this thread, and 2 people have an issue? Really?

And secret support _is_ lame. I mean, you should see the PMs I got from my last post


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "If you are talking about the people who never posted here at all, I'd agree with you. "


No. I don't know what the people who have not posted think. I was referring to the many people who posted saying there is nothing troubling, no problem, no danger, and no insecurity. They don't see an issue in the fact that they define their own hierarchy of needs.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> Again, total miss-characterization of everything he said. There is no need to be nasty to him. He did not say anything mean to you or about anybody. He did not say you shouldn't talk about money. He never said it was "dangerous" (where did you get THAT quote?) to talk about sales or promotions, nor did he ask anybody to change what they post.
> 
> He just expressed a desire to talk about something else too, and was a little troubled by how hard it is to talk about here.
> 
> ...


He clarified dangerous on page 11 of the thread 

If we're rewriting this whole thing now, i'm out. Sorry, but 13 pages is too much to circle back on. Been interesting, but now it's mutating into something weird. Back to my WIP I go. Thank you all for the distraction.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

burke_KB said:


> I don't think it's disrespectful at all. I'd like data to backup this supposed issue. What percentage of posts are about money? What percentage are about covers, blurbs, reviews and marketing? What percentage are about Wool? I mean, if it is an issue, lets see some facts. You can't just say there is an issue. 4,780 views of this thread, and 2 people have an issue? Really?
> 
> And secret support _is_ lame. I mean, you should see the PMs I got from my last post


It's no more lame than saying "but professionals _never_ talk about craft."

As for the rest, you're arguing with a straw man you set up yourself, not with Joe. Who cares how many posts there are about this or that? He didn't complain about the number of posts. He wasn't talking about that at all.

And that's where you're missing this completely. The reason I jumped in: The indication that this is an issue is not what he said, but how people reacted to it. Especially how people attacked what he didn't even say. Clearly people have issues, and they have nothing to do with Joe.

If you're not interested in this subject, why are you here? Why do you feel the need to tear him down and treat him with such disrespect? Clearly it's an issue to you.

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

burke_KB said:


> He clarified dangerous on page 11 of the thread
> 
> If we're rewriting this whole thing now, i'm out. Sorry, but 13 pages is too much to circle back on. Been interesting, but now it's mutating into something weird. Back to my WIP I go. Thank you all for the distraction.


Yes, you're right it's a long thread and obviously hard to keep track of.

I went back and found the dangerous comment, and he did not say that it's dangerous to talk about sales. He said it's dangerous to exhalt sales as the only measure. Which is very different and not worthy of the kind of response he got. The response to that is easy: "We don't."

I keep going back and though I find things I missed the first time around, I never see him saying anything like what people are characterizing him as saying. And that, again, comes down to disrespect. There's no need for personal attacks.

Camille


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Camille, the issue that many of us appear to have is the inference in the original post that the interest in sales and money as a measurement of success is somehow taking us away from what the OP feels are the correct reasons to write and taking us to a undesirable place. Although he did not outright say it, his original post inferred that unless we were writing for the purposes of art over money, we were all doomed to eventually no longer enjoy what we are doing.

While none of what he said is illogical, it is how he, the OP feels, and is not how everyone feels. In essence he was saying "you should think this way, or you're doomed."

To make matters worse, when his logic was challenged, he danced around the issue, offered no evidence to back up his claim, and failed to engage anyone in a meaningful way about his statements. Furthermore, when confronted with logical counter-arguments backed up with reasonable circumstantial evidence from multiple posters, he countered with the statement about how many people were secretly agreeing with him. No one became nasty until he made that statement.

If you don't want controversy, don't raise controversial issues. If you didn't realize they were controversial to begin with, simply apologize for ruffling feathers and move on.

We can all sit her and type pretty little words into our posts and play nice with each other, but that's boring and accomplishes nothing. I'm not advocating attacks mind you, but if your going to stir up the poo, don't be surprised if some of it gets on your clothes. 

We're authors, we can talk a little disagreement and criticism and still be friends, right?


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

emilycantore said:


> But he did say it: "I'm not trying to propose a solution. I'm just pointing out that there's a problem, and a danger."


And what was the "danger?" The people who are reacting to that word aren't even listening to what he's saying.

The fact is, what _he's_ talking about as dangerous actually is dangerous -- but it isn't something that is a problem here. A few people pointed that out, and he acknowledged that. But too many people are so busy being indignant that they never bothered to figure out what he was saying.

What's the point of this argument? Why be here if you aren't actually interested in his point of view, and either learning from it or helping him to understand yours? Are you just here to score points? Why bother?

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Rykymus said:


> We're authors, we can talk a little disagreement and criticism and still be friends, right?


Sorry for cutting the rest of your post, but trust me, I've been here a long time and I know what people are reacting too. And this last line of yours that I quoted is exactly my point:

There is no need to personally attack this guy, to sneer at him or to call his character into question. Not everybody has done that -- as a matter of fact most poeple haven't. As you may have notice, throughout most of this discussion, I've taken the middle ground.

But personal attacks are out of bounds, and people who do it should be called on it.

Camille


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2013)

Perhaps the trouble began when I assumed that most of the people in this community are like me: creative types who love to write, have been writing since grade school, and would continue to write even if there was no money in it.  People who feel that this is, in some sense, their calling, and are pursuing it out of passion.  And for those types, I think there is a very real danger in overemphasizing sales to the point that we forget everything else.  

For other types, I'm not so sure--far be it from me to say that there's one "correct" way to do anything--but I do think that there are important things that we miss when we focus exclusively on sales numbers.  Things like the impact our stories can have on people, or the meaningful ways that we influence others.  Let's not forget or devalue our successes that have little to do with a sales number--that's all I'm saying.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Stepping in here...everything has been going so well.

Camille, I haven't seen anything that reached the level of personal attacks in this thread, though there were a couple of times I thought I was going to have to pull the cattle prod.  If I missed some, would someone please point them out to me.

People are allowed to have strong feelings.  Obviously, this thread has stirred some up.  And I've seen posts both in support (a few, admittedly) as well as opposing...and also some asking for more information on what Joe meant. 

Let's all take a deep breath and check out some of the thousands of other threads here for a bit...

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2013)

Also, I don't mean to bring up the PMs as vindication for my point of view, but to point out that there are people who do see this as a very real issue and don't feel comfortable discussing it in a public way.  Which is something worth keeping in mind, especially with so many lurkers who could potentially add so much value to this community, provided that they can be made to feel welcome here.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

What Emily said!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK...let's back off a bit.  

Joe didn't call anyone dangerous...he said a behavior was dangerous.  That's his opinion.  He's allowed to have it.  Others are allowed to disagree.  Both sides are allowed to say so.  If you've expressed your disagreement, there's probably nothing more to be said.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2013)

One thing I'd like to point out, Emily: I'm also in this business to make money. My goal is to turn this into my full-time career, and I'm working hard toward that end. If you'll notice, I said:



> I doubt very much that any of us are so stupid as to go into writing *solely* for the $$$.


So yes, I did choose my words deliberately ... and you missed one. 

And do you really want me to start pulling out "evidence"? To start pointing fingers at specific people and specific threads where I perceive that this is a problem? I can't do that without the moderators clamping down on it pretty quick, and even if they didn't, that's not a rabbit hole I want to jump down. Besides, if I got any more specific, I'm pretty sure that the resistance to change would only increase. At least this way, people can ask themselves if any of this describes them, and make any changes quietly, without feeling pressured to do so.

I trust that the people in this community are honest and self-aware enough to take this feedback in the spirit that it's meant, and to apply it to their own situations personally. I'll leave it to you to decide whether it applies to you; clearly you feel that it doesn't. So long as you don't toss out everything that I say out of hand, I'm okay with that.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "I doubt very much that any of us are so stupid as to go into writing solely for the $$$."


Why is that stupid?


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Guest (Jun 12, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Why is that stupid?


Because it seems like a lot of work for what so often amounts to little more than a glorified lottery ticket. But if people find it offensive that I call it "stupid," then I take it back. Sorry.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Because it seems like a lot of work for what so often amounts to little more than a glorified lottery ticket. But if people find it offensive that I call it "stupid," then I take it back. Sorry.


We can't judge the work/reward ratio for anyone without having detailed information on their abilities, resources, and opportunities. Without that information we have no basis for saying it's stupid or a glorified lottery ticket. I take no offense, but I do challenge the idea that it's stupid and a glorified lottery ticket.



> "My opinion is because, on average, you can make more money bartending part-time than writing. It's "common" knowledge that most writers do not (and never did) support themselves with their writing and have day jobs. So to jump into publishing, considering all of the time required, with no guarantees of making any money without any enjoyment of the process itself seems, well...misguided?"


Lots of people aren't average.

I agree many people have day jobs. What's your point?

Bartending depends on opportunity. For opportunity cost analysis, we need information about an individual's opportunities and attitude toward risk.

Misguided? I don't see how we can make that judgement about anyone without knowing their specific situation.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

I wrote a novel twenty years ago just to see if I could. I had time to kill working a station that got very few calls. I had fun doing it, but it was a lot of work. I never did anything with that manuscript because I had no interest in becoming a professional writer. I had other things that interested me more at the time.

I started writing again once I learned that that I could self-publish through KDP and have control over my own writing. I knew it was going to be a lot of work, and that it might take years to make any money at it, if at all. But I needed to make some extra money in a bad way, as I was borrowing money from my Mom (a retired school teacher) just to pay rent. It was a long shot at best but I believed it was possible if I was willing to work hard at it. I was in it for the money, period. That's what I was after from day one.

Funny thing happened along the way. I found out I enjoy writing, and it feels good to know that other's enjoy my stories. Still, if I wasn't making any money at it, I would not be writing. Daddy's gotta put food on the table.

So you see, money is the ultimate measurement for me, and it is the reason that I started writing. I strive to make the best, most enjoyable product that I can for my customers. Not because I'm trying to create art, but because I'm trying to run a profitable business. Do I care about my readers? Of course. But I care about them because they are my customers, and they are loyal enough to keep buying my books. I have to respect them if I expect to remain in business. As a consumer, I don't give a rat's behind if the manufacturer of a product I like cares about me, I only care that they continue to make a product that I think is worthy of my dollars.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with any of this. And in my opinion, anyone who thinks there *is * something wrong with that is flat out wrong.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> *Writing the book is MARKETING* and this is often ignored.


I respectfully disagree with this statement. Creating a widget is production or manufacturing. If you create a widget no one wants to buy, that's not marketing. Creating 15 widgets no one buys is still not marketing. Choosing aspects about that widget _can _ be - but isn't always - marketing. Deliberate decisions based on how you think your audience will receive the widget _is _ marketing.

Writing a book that you want to write just for the sake of having the book _be _ isn't marketing. The process of writing in and of itself is not marketing. However, making the decision to write a 3-book new adult romance series because your writing style matches the genre, you want to target that niche audience because you believe your content speaks to them, and you want to be able to capture fans and keep them across 3 books _is _ marketing.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Joe (and others),

I admit that after reading 14 pages, I'm still not sure what this thread is about. Still, I have to thank you all because it definitely made me introspect and try and answer a couple of things, namely:
- do *I* think sales is an accurate measure of success? If not, how do I measure success?
- do I write for money, for love, or for a little bit of both?
- would I keep writing if there was no chance at any money?
- how does the desire for money influence they way I write?

I don't write for myself, as some do. I write because I like making up stories, sure, but I am always writing for a reader. If not for readers, or the hope of them, I wouldn't write. I want to be heard. I want to make people think and feel, to entertain them, to give them an escape. (Ahem - just call me Ms Megalomaniac.) Yes, I could give away my work for free - but I also value my time and my skill. I think my books are worth something to those readers that I seek, which is why I also write with money as a goal, though one among many.

Thus, my favorite kinds of discussions are those about the ways KBers have reached their readers. I think it's fair to say that the underlying purpose of most (or at least many) KB threads is the desire to reach readers - at least as much as it is the desire to make money.

The reason for trying to find those readers will vary from person to person. What strikes Joe as single minded and dangerous is so - for him. It certainly doesn't bother or affect me in the slightest if others want to use money/sales as their ultimate goal, measure of success, or whatever. Often, that different perspective is useful - and that goes both ways. I've never seen someone belittled for not caring how much they sold that month. They might be ignored, but that's because the WC is a vital place for self-pubbers to talk about business, which includes sales.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

FWIW - Emily, I don't think there's anything wrong with writing just for money. I don't think I fall into that camp - and I admit that at first the idea made me go, Whaaaaat? But to the other self-professed artists in this thread, I found it helpful to think of for-money fiction writers they way I think of journalists. A good journalist is generally both a good reporter and a good writer, and someone who turns those skills into a career. I don't know of many journalists who report and write without the expectation, goal, and assumption that they will receive a paycheck for their work. That doesn't mean they aren't dedicated and passionate. So for the for-money authors, perhaps it is the same?


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> My point was, why spend so much time doing something you have no interest in, except for an expectation of money that there is no guarantee of ever getting.


I don't know. It's up to each individual and their specific situation. Nobody has to answer to me. But my ignorance does not support the idea that it is stupid.



> A part-time job will pay something, bartending was an example, could be working at a flower shop or car wash. While lots of people are making decent money publishing, the majority are not. So high risk (in terms of time) and low potential for any return, isn't a wise investment (all things being equal).


I can't assume anyone's risk parameters. I also don't accept the idea that any specific case is defined by the average performance of the superset. That's good information to have, but we would need a good reason to apply the average performance to any specific case.



> Unless you love to write (or market or social media), then it isn't an investment, it's doing what you love.


Sure it is. It's an investment of time and money in the expectation of non-financial reward. Somebody might even contend there is a financial opportunity cost because the writer could be tending bar instead.



> I have no problem with people trying anything, whether they like it or not, in the hopes of making money. I agree with your entrepreneurial spirit. But, in the bigger scheme of things, like happiness (speaking in very broad strokes here) - if you don't enjoy doing it, why devote so much of your life to it?


I don't know. None of my business. We would have to ask the guy doing it. But, again, my ignorance doesn't mean the other guy is stupid.



> Misguided seems like an apt term, but I'm sure there is a better word for it. It's late.


Guidance presumes some standard against which action is analyzed. What's the standard?


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

For me it seemed a logical risk, as for my first three books there was no investment other than time. (And a lot of it.) The effort seemed worth the risk as if it worked, it would not only make me money, but would also give me control over my future, doing something that I already suspected that I might enjoy, based on the experience of writing that novel 20 years earlier.

Had I not taken the risk, there would be 200,000 fewer enjoyed reading experiences shared with others. I would never have found out that I have a talent (albeit miniscule) for writing, and for connecting with others who share my love of my selected genre. I suspected all along that I could do it, and I also knew that it was a risk, but I had nothing to lose but my own time, as it was being done on nights and weekends when I was not earning a living.

I just don't see how that was a stupid reason for jumping into the deep end of the pool.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

Rykymus said:


> Do I care about my readers? Of course. But I care about them because they are my customers, and they are loyal enough to keep buying my books. I have to respect them if I expect to remain in business. As a consumer, I don't give a rat's behind if the manufacturer of a product I like cares about me, I only care that they continue to make a product that I think is worthy of my dollars.


As a reader, do you care if the authors of the books you like care about those books? I'm asking out of honest curiosity. I don't need authors to care about _me _(although if an author is known for being a real jerk, I'll probably avoid their work, unless I'm already a fan), but if I read and loved a book and then found out that the author didn't like the book and only wrote it because they thought it would sell well... yeah, that would leave a bad taste in my mouth. (And I'm not talking about you here, because I know you said in a previous post that you care about what you write.)

I had assumed most people feel this way, but with money as the primary driving force for so many writers, I'm wondering if I'm wrong. As a reader, do you care why the book was written and whether the author cares about it? Am I just a big snob? 

(Note: I'm not saying that all, or even most, writers who are in it for the money don't care about the things they write. The posts in this thread clearly show that that isn't the case.)


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

To all,

I took Joe to task a bit for globalizing his impressions, but now I fear I have to support what Camille had to say, too.

To wit: there is no reason to get totally harsh on Joe. He's a really nice guy, and while the problems he's observing might not be as widespread as he suggests (which was my main point to him), that doesn't mean they're non-existent in all cases.

He's right that it is a trap one can fall into; I just don't think this group is doing that as much as he thinks it does. But that's a legitimate area of differing opinion, and please note that I attempted to remain respectful to him throughout our exchange.

Accusing someone falsely claiming "secret support" is a step beyond what I'd agree is respectful disagreement. Joe's concerns are valid concerns. We can disagree on how commonly folks in this community fall victim to them... that's legit and not insulting.

But to allege he's making up DM support? That's not right or fair. Let's act like the professionals we are and disagree (when we disagree) in an agreeable, mutually-respectful fashion, shall we?

P.S. Please note that I wrote this in response to what was going on a couple "pages" back... I can see the thread has had a course-correction since then. Bravo, folks! It's always best to stay constructive and not dog-pile someone.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Perhaps the trouble began when I assumed that most of the people in this community are like me: creative types who love to write, have been writing since grade school, and would continue to write even if there was no money in it. People who feel that this is, in some sense, their calling, and are pursuing it out of passion. And for those types, I think there is a very real danger in overemphasizing sales to the point that we forget everything else.


And I think this is why I like and respect you, Joe.

While we disagree on the extent of the problem you perceive, I think we're very similar in a lot of ways.

I, too, have been writing since grade school. I think I was in 2nd grade when I wrote my first story where my teacher not only gave me a letter grade, but wrote on my paper, "I want to read MORE. What happens next?"

Not that it was a massive work of literature. I was, what, seven or eight? LOL. (And, full confession, at that age I also drew a lot, inspired by Peanuts by Charles Schultz. And the principal liked one of my drawings so much, he hung it on his door. To my horror because I realized after he hung it up that I'd misspelled "Snoopy" as "Spoopy." Which, for some reason, still bothers me TO THIS DAY!  )

I've always kept alive writing projects and the goal of being a writer, though for a long stretch in my 30s, I had stopped submitting anything to anyone because I'd been beaten down by the Big 6 approval system.

I didn't enter e-pubbing to "get rich quick" but I did redevote myself to writing as a vocation rather than an avocation because I saw the opportunity to get my work in front of readers and, yes, of course, the potential to make a living off my craft. 

But, like you, I'm often more motivated by my creative urges than my business/publisher side.

If I were totally ruled by my self-publisher side, I'd have gone straight from SHADA to EMBER, whether it was "ready" or not.

Instead, I wrote EyeCU, which I had more of a burning desire to write.

And now, if I were smart, for SURE I'd write either EMBER to finally deliver on that oft-delayed promise, or I'd at least write another horror title for older readers like EyeCU, so I have something to follow up EyeCU with if that goes over big.

Instead, much of my creative energy is behind this odd little tale I'm working on, SIN, which is about friendship and betrayal and reconciliation but, at least at this point, has no "set genre" appeal to it... it's not a horror tale, or a suspenser, or YA, or anything like anything I've written before.

But I know I'm producing some powerful scenes, and that's what's drawing me to SIN.

I'm trying to re-ignite EMBER, too. But if I had to hazard a guess, SIN might very well get finished before EMBER does, or before my next horror title... unless I can transform SIN into having a horror angle, that is.

But, like you, the desire to always improve, to write better, to create fiction that forms more touchstones with readers, drives me as well.

But, that being said?

I can still talk self-publishing with the best of them. And sales. And income. And goals.

I may not always write in accordance with my best business instincts. Otherwise I'd be completing EMBER COLE, BOOK 3 right around now...  Heck, it's been well over a year now since I put anything new out at all, because I'm working on longer works of fiction! Traditional self-publishing wisdom is, write novellas or divide those longer works up into several novels so you have frequent new releases and build momentum.

But I guess I model myself too closely along the lines of my literary role-model, Stephen King: I believe in giving readers a complete story in each book I put out, even if it's part of a series. I'm not one who serializes, really, and turns one 100K novel into three 34K novellas. It's just not in me, not the way I'm built.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Sorry if this has been said, I'm still about 200 posts behind.

It took me a long time before I was able to write fiction full-time--though with much, much more modest success than many of our members. In fact, it took about 12 years and 1000 rejections, to quantify things (which I LOVE doing!). And I'm almost positive that without KB, I would still be adding to both those totals.

I have personal goals with my fiction, too. Recently, it's to write women SF heroes who are as selfish, weird, and regularly unlikable as my male semi-anti-heroes.

But that's a very personal goal. Whereas I think that almost all of us here would like to reach readers and make a living off our fiction--which, as has been pointed out, is deeply intertwined. Me asking and answering questions about marketing and sales is about continuing to learn how to make a living at this, but also to give back to the community that helped me.

Because without this place.. well, I wouldn't be here. It's that talk about the business that lets so many people reach whatever their own more personal, loftier goals might be.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Because it seems like a lot of work for what so often amounts to little more than a glorified lottery ticket. But if people find it offensive that I call it "stupid," then I take it back. Sorry.


Actually, what's stupid is assuming that authors here who are discussing money consider writing a 'lottery ticket.' Most of the posts I've seen are from people whose goal is to earn a living writing, instead of what they're currently doing. It doesn't take a 'lottery win' to do that, as so many here have proven. It's a goal that's within reach of anyone with some writing talent and is willing to work hard.

And this post of yours pretty much sums up your attitude. Even your apologies are condescending.

(Here's where you claim you didn't intend to be condescending, while pointing out how enlightened you are, and we're all just hacks in it for the money.)


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Most of us (including me) have aspirations to turn this writing gig into our main careers and quit or scale back on the day job(s). I think those goals are laudable, and I hope that most if not all of us are able to make it. However, I wonder if in our enthusiasm to build our careers, we're putting too much emphasis on monetary measures of success, like sales, and not enough emphasis on building connections with readers, writing meaningful stories, or reconnecting with the things that made us write in the first place.
> 
> Sales and income are certainly important, but I cannot believe that they are the most important thing. They're certainly not the reasons I started writing in the first place. And yet, in browsing some of the more popular threads in the writer's cafe, it's hard not to get the impression that sales are the only thing that matter to us--or, if not the only thing, certainly the thing that matters most.
> 
> Not sure if I have a solution to this problem, but it's a troubling tendency in this community that I wanted to point out.


(Qualifier: I have not read 15 pages of replies)

For me, it's a balancing act. I love my readers, I want them to be happy, I love getting their e-mails and making connections with them. That is hugely important to me because it lets me know I'm doing my _job_ correctly ... but ultimately, like anything else, writing is a job.

I need to make money from my products, maybe that's not a romantic notion but it's a sincere one. I need to make money so I can CONTINUE to write for the love of writing.

1. I need money to power my computer (aka the electric bill).
2. I need to make money to afford a computer.
3. I need to make money to afford to publish the things I write (covers, editing, formatting ... those things aren't cheap for someone will no skills).
4. I need to make money to promote the things I write so readers actually know I exist and I, you know, wrote a book.

Without money to fund those things, I cannot afford to write -- for the romance of it or for any other reason. If I can fund the practicalities of then I can sit back and write what I love.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Some people write for money.  Some people write for passion.  And a lucky few can actually make money writing what they are passionate about.  Once you start writing for money, you are making compromises artistically.  It’s unavoidable.

In Russell Blake’s thread (great thread and Russell was super-gracious and helpful), Russell said he separates his writer’s hat from his publisher’s hat.  He even conceded that he changed the ending of one of his stories to make it more commercial, but that in his view the ending was worse.  The author flat out admits that his work, in his view, is actually inferior in story but superior in marketability.  This is Russell’s choice and more power to him, but it’s a significant statement and no one even blinked.

Is it okay to write a story that you believe is inferior because you believe it’s more marketable?  Russell seems to be kicking butt and I wouldn’t presume to tell him what to do, but I do think the precedent is “dangerous” to use Joe’s language because you run the risk of patronizing your audience.  Personally, I don’t believe in underestimating your readers.  I don’t see how you can tell an inferior story without talking down to your audience.  As much as I respect Russell, I can’t reconcile that. 

There is a mercenary attitude on these boards.  I have no problem with that.  But please don’t pretend it doesn’t exist and lash out at Joe for speaking his mind.

Is there intrinsic value in telling the best story you are capable of telling and letting the chips fall where they may?  I’m lucky enough to have a day job that pays pretty well, so granted, my concerns are different than some.  I’m free to write whatever I feel like and if I don’t make a penny from my work, my family still eats.  I can afford to be a pretentious amateur.  But I also believe in the power of story and the value of creative integrity.  No one ever suggested we stop talking about business, but taking pride in the work is pretty important too and it’s rarely stressed around here.


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## Katherine Roberts (Apr 4, 2013)

jayallan said:


> Here's an idea. If you don't want to be condescended to by someone who writes quickly and/or makes a lot of money selling books, how about stopping with the nonstop snarky characterizations that everyone who writes faster than you or sells more than you is cranking out inferior drivel. I've got news for all the self appointed art world elitists out there...a lot of the fast, financially successful writers are putting out excellent, well-thought out books.
> 
> The funny thing is, the people who sell a lot of books rarely or never put down the people who sell fewer...at least not in any posts I've seen. But this thread alone must have at least 20 posts from people implying or outright proclaiming their superiority simply because they don't make as much money on their books (or because they write more slowly).
> 
> I can think of a bunch of people on this board who are making major bank who always seem to have time to help others out. They've behaved a LOT better than some of the self-appointed guardians of so-called artistic integrity who have reared their ugly heads on this thread.


OUCH! Jay, I certainly don't mean to come across as superior or as someone who doesn't admire those who are making decent money from their books! I've been writing and making a (modest) living from my books long enough to admire the craft and business savvy of the best-sellers, whichever way they choose to publish. I wouldn't be here, otherwise. I was simply trying to make sense of this thread, and maybe pass on my experiences as someone who has weathered the traditional route and seen the way fashions come and go.

I'm bound to have had a different experience of writing and publishing my books from those who started out indie in the ebook world, but if people would prefer I left this forum because I have published traditionally in the past (which was the only route open to me when I started), then I'd rather someone let me know - or maybe Jay just did? I'm rather upset to think all my comments on this board have come across as "non-stop snarky", because they certainly weren't meant to. I am here, joining in these discussions, because I am trying to understand the changes that have happened in publishing over the past few years and where my books might fit into that.

I'm hoping your comment was less a personal attack on me though, and more a general trad-published attitude you're disagreeing with? Truth is, almost every author I know (including me!) would love to have a best-selling book in their life. It just sometimes doesn't work out that way.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I admit, I love the drama in this thread. It's a popcorn thread, for sure: very entertaining!

But in my opinion, it is this very drama that is dangerous to our community. Julie touched on it in the "tone" thread a few months ago. Once someone decides they are being attacked, it's no longer fun and games. It gets serious. Often, the person who decides they are being attacked is mistaken, but once they retaliate it's too late, and all hell can break loose.

My suggestions for minimizing the danger of drama in the forum:

Don't attack. You can give your opinions on things, but don't criticize the opinions of others.
If you feel you are being attacked, page a mod and withdraw from the thread.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Terrence, You clearly know business, how are all of those big money decisions in the corporate world made? What standard do they use? In any cost/benefit analysis, some benchmark is required. And, yes, that benchmark is case-specific, but not always in the aggregate.
> 
> It's just an observation - an opinion.
> 
> ...


Corporations evaluate expected return against their existing risk profile, considering internal and external positive and negative factors.

Opinions carry ideas. I'm discussing the ideas. I'm not concerned with the vehicle that carries them.

I accept your prediction of the advice you would give. I have no basis to dispute what you would do.

I acknowledge you did not say stupid.


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## JenniferHarlow (Jun 8, 2013)

Okay, just from my standpoint. I'm new here. I have a few traditionally published books but I just epubed anpther book, something of which I knew precious little about before I decided to go down this road. The reason I joined this forum was to learn new skills to better ensure the monetary success of my book. I was told this is THE PLACE to do it. I knew that by coming here I'd learn about places like BookBub, the best cover designers, and also to expand my list of contacts in case I have questions. There is nothing wrong with that. If I spent countless hours writing then publishing it, putting it out there to be judged, I should know something about story structure, dialogue, and even grammar. It takes cojones to publish something. Give away control of it to perfect strangers. If I take that leap then I should know the basic [crap]. I read, I took classes, I have beta readers for the writing stuff. Marketing is a horse of a different color. I'm so glad I found this place.


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## MGalloway (Jun 21, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> Personally, I don't believe in underestimating your readers.


I think it is possible, although difficult at times, to write fiction on two levels at once...to entertain yet also reward readers who like to "dig deeper" for more meaning (or create stories that take some work to figure out). This doesn't work for every story and since readers read books for a wide variety of reasons, there is sort of a tension and a balance there. Speaking for myself, sometimes I read fiction to escape, other times to think deeper about something, and other times to study an author's technique.



Adam Pepper said:


> Is there intrinsic value in telling the best story you are capable of telling and letting the chips fall where they may?


Definitely. But like AshMP stated above, for some it can be a balancing act. Although I'm not full-time, I guess I've found a balance by allowing myself time to experiment with different story structures/ideas that may or may not be uploaded. Additionally, I still see lots of untapped opportunity in the area of story structures...which opens up another avenue of creativity...although not every reader cares about those things. Is there a commercial risk in publishing those stories? Sure, but I'm still going to write those stories even if no one reads them. Why? Because I learn something new every time that may be useful down the road. Maybe that means it'll take longer to reach my goals, but I'm aware of the risk. I like to call it "R & D" or even call some of the stories skunkworks projects.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Zoe Cannon said:


> As a reader, do you care if the authors of the books you like care about those books? I'm asking out of honest curiosity. I don't need authors to care about _me _(although if an author is known for being a real jerk, I'll probably avoid their work, unless I'm already a fan), but if I read and loved a book and then found out that the author didn't like the book and only wrote it because they thought it would sell well... yeah, that would leave a bad taste in my mouth. (And I'm not talking about you here, because I know you said in a previous post that you care about what you write.)
> 
> I had assumed most people feel this way, but with money as the primary driving force for so many writers, I'm wondering if I'm wrong. As a reader, do you care why the book was written and whether the author cares about it? Am I just a big snob?
> 
> (Note: I'm not saying that all, or even most, writers who are in it for the money don't care about the things they write. The posts in this thread clearly show that that isn't the case.)


Zoe, this is a big debate topic in Literary Criticism classes (at least in the one I took). Does the reader experience change based on what they know about the author? How does that perception change if you learn something either negative or positive about the author after having read the work? How does the knowledge lend itself to your receiving the work? Should knowing the author's experiences or reasons for writing a work be a measure for judging the work itself? Do readers need to learn as much as they can about the authors before reading any of their works, or should the reading be done in a vacuum? How do you reconcile the merit or de-merit of a work that is judged differently by readers who are or are not privy to any knowledge about the author? Is there an unspoken bond created between author and reader by the very act of reading? And is projecting feelings about author motivation onto the created work a fair way to judge the work itself?

If you enjoyed a book before you knew the author wrote it only for the money (or is a different gender than the author name implies, is of a different race than you, is a Democrat, is Christian, was once incarcerated, is a hunter, is pro-life, is very poor, is very rich, is a playboy, is a virgin, did missionary work, has been divorced 5 times, is a widow, etc) how does that make the work itself less enjoyable now?

Rhetorical questions all, of course, as this is simply another theoretical approach (a priori vs a posteriori vs no knowledge) in the school of literary criticism. For some it matters (and the definition of "it" changes from individual to individual); for others, not so much.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Zoe: I do care about what I write. I care about the quality, I care about the story, but most of all, I care about the reading experience it will provide. In an earlier post, I confessed that I would not be happy writing any other story in any other genre. This genre is what I love. When I played guitar, I always played my best. When I was a cook, I cooked the best food that I could. When I was a paramedic, I provided that best care that I could. It's simply in my nature to always do my best. It's how I was raised. I am writing a story that I would be thrilled to follow as a reader. I know of no other way to write. I honestly believe that all creative people are this way, as there would be no satisfaction in creating something you do not like.

Katherine: Please do not go. Diverse opinions and backgrounds are what makes this forum so interesting.

Joe: I do not disagree with your position, only its presentation and its lack of valid support by you when challenged in honest ways. I think the idea of not letting money become your sole guiding light applies to just about anything in life. Even if you got into this business to make money, as I did, you still should strike a balance that makes you (and hopefully your readers) happy.

To everyone: I have yet to see a personal attack, but perhaps that's because I consider a personal attack to be when you directly call someone stupid, or an $^%#& or whatever. Vehemently attacking someone's position is not a personal attack. I'm sure the moderators know this, which is why the thread has not been locked. (Managed discreetly, but not locked.) 

This topic is no different than the write faster vs. write slower topic, or the outline vs. pantsing topic. The temperature rises when someone (inadvertently) infers (usually by a poor choice of words) that someone's work is inferior because of the way/method/reason/speed at which they produce it. Sometimes it is the fault of the poster. Sometimes it is the fault of the reader of the post. More often than not, it's a bit of both.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

Well, that was a long read. I think my @$$ has gone numb.



Katherine Roberts said:


> OUCH! Jay, I certainly don't mean to come across as superior or as someone who doesn't admire those who are making decent money from their books! I've been writing and making a (modest) living from my books long enough to admire the craft and business savvy of the best-sellers, whichever way they choose to publish. I wouldn't be here, otherwise. I was simply trying to make sense of this thread, and maybe pass on my experiences as someone who has weathered the traditional route and seen the way fashions come and go.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I'm hoping your comment was less a personal attack on me though, and more a general trad-published attitude you're disagreeing with? Truth is, almost every author I know (including me!) would love to have a best-selling book in their life. It just sometimes doesn't work out that way.


If I may suggest, having had this discussion with Jay before, I suspect he wasn't necessarily firing his entire post at you. When he referenced the 20 other posts in this thread, I think he was trying to encompass a more pervasive attitude (that maybe might have just a little bit been reflected in your first post - did I mitigate that enough? I'm trying to play extra nice today) that's present on these boards from time to time. Topic for another post, probably.

And just to say, as the most capitalistic, sales-oriented sonofagun to ever walk through the doors of KB...I work on craft in private, in classes, in my own reading, etc. I actually do it quite a bit. And I love the stories I write, or I wouldn't write them.

But I love sales talk, too. Probably too much, which is one of the reasons I figured I should probably make myself scarcer around here. It's nice to see writers talk about how to sell better, what tactics to use. If someone comes on the boards or to me personally, asking for craft advice (and they have), frankly, I have no time to help them. Do you have any idea how long it takes to help a rookie writer with craft? Not talking about the subjective stuff that's argued about, just basics that some folks probably need a little help with. I'm not a beta reader, nor do I wish to delve into the guts of their story to try and fix it (assuming I'm even qualified to do so). But I might be able to give them a couple pieces of marketing advice, a couple carburetor adjustments as it were, that take about five minutes for me to give, to help them - if they have a story that can catch reader attention. It's apathy, I suppose, on my part, to only want to help on a limited basis. Part of that comes from having to protect my schedule, though, in order to continue to publish at the pace I set for myself (to hit my own goals).

Anyway, this has been fun. I'm sure it'll go on for at least a few more pages before it reaches its utter lack of resolution (that's not a dig, by the way, just an acknowledgment that we all do these things for different reasons and sometimes trying to bridge the gap between ours and those of others with opposing views is...uh...let's stick to being nice and say futile) and fades into the ether. I actually learned a couple things from it, though, so my thanks to Joe for starting the thread.

I'm still annoyingly sales-oriented, though, so...laterz.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

I agree with the OP. We should share other victories and successes. It's not all about the money (though that part is really nice).


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

elizabethbarone said:


> I agree with the OP. We should share other victories and successes. It's not all about the money (though that part is really nice).


15 pages later and this is the best post in the thread.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "As a reader, do you care if the authors of the books you like care about those books?"


My behavior indicates I don't. That's because I know very little about any of those authors, and haven't done anything to find out more. I'm concerned with the product itself, not the mindset and attitudes of the producer.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Adam: What I did was take off my writer's hat and put on my publisher's hat. The publisher in me said to give the nice crowd what they want. The writer said just write whatever you want. After discussion with my editor and polling a number of authors, I decided to go with a more upbeat, but still kind of a downer, ending. My original vision of the ending was a complete, slit-your-wrists kind of downer ending. I've seen enough reviews trashing books because they didn't like the characters or the ending to understand that from a business perspective, writing an ending that's a complete downer, while perhaps superior from a literary standpoint, ensures the book will get trashed and not sell well. So my publisher hat dictated what any competent editor at a publisher would dictate: change the ending so it is marketable. In other, don't pin a bullseye on your chest and walk in front of the firing squad.

Once the smoke cleared, the new ending is actually quite good, so I'm glad I went in that direction. I think I was just kind of bummed when I was thinking through the original ending, as the conclusions the book arrives at are depressing. For that reason, I thought it would be more impactful. And it would have been. But not in a good way for many readers. Thus the new ending.

I would call it more common sense than compromising my artistic integrity. That, and I'm an airport read novelist, not writing the next Lord of the Flies, so there's only so far you can venture from accepted formulas before you cross over from being marketable to being ignored.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

blakebooks said:


> Adam: What I did was take off my writer's hat and put on my publisher's hat. The publisher in me said to give the nice crowd what they want. The writer said just write whatever you want. After discussion with my editor and polling a number of authors, I decided to go with a more upbeat, but still kind of a downer, ending. My original vision of the ending was a complete, slit-your-wrists kind of downer ending. I've seen enough reviews trashing books because they didn't like the characters or the ending to understand that from a business perspective, writing an ending that's a complete downer, while perhaps superior from a literary standpoint, ensures the book will get trashed and not sell well. So my publisher hat dictated what any competent editor at a publisher would dictate: change the ending so it is marketable. In other, don't pin a bullseye on your chest and walk in front of the firing squad.
> 
> Once the smoke cleared, the new ending is actually quite good, so I'm glad I went in that direction. I think I was just kind of bummed when I was thinking through the original ending, as the conclusions the book arrives at are depressing. For that reason, I thought it would be more impactful. And it would have been. But not in a good way for many readers. Thus the new ending.
> 
> I would call it more common sense than compromising my artistic integrity. That, and I'm an airport read novelist, not writing the next Lord of the Flies, so there's only so far you can venture from accepted formulas before you cross over from being marketable to being ignored.


Here's a question. Since writers are famous for not necessarily being the best judge of their own writing, even when they're good writers, is there any possibility that the guy under the publisher's hat chose a better ending, even by artistic standards?


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

blakebooks said:


> Once the smoke cleared, the new ending is actually quite good, so I'm glad I went in that direction. I think I was just kind of bummed when I was thinking through the original ending, as the conclusions the book arrives at are depressing. For that reason, I thought it would be more impactful. And it would have been. But not in a good way for many readers. Thus the new ending.


As someone who's killed off several main (and I mean, *main*) characters, I definitely can sympathize here. One thing I've had to learn over the course of writing all these books is to ignore this inherent tendency to believe that the darker, more depressing series of events/ending are somehow better, and will carry more impact. In re-editing my Shadowdance series for Orbit, I reread the ending to the third book, and this one in particular I'd tried to have all gritty and depressing because that's how you really put some oomph into the ending of a trilogy, right? Except after having some time and space, I came back and wondered what the heck was wrong with me. The tone didn't work. The dire attitude in my characters wasn't supported. I lightened up the ending tremendously, and am far prouder of it now.

That, and think about this: one ending is more literary, darker, more open ended. One satisfies readers. Why should the self-serving one I as the author like be inherently better than the one that makes the readers happy? In a simple comparison: George Lucas wanted the Millenium Falcon to be destroyed in Return of the Jedi during the second death star's explosion, killing off Lando Calrissian. This would have been more impactful, right? Darker, adding a nice somber ending in which the costs of war are made clear, and one of the heroes loses both his best friend and his iconic ship. But viewers haaaated it, and I think most people would agree that that ending just isn't the right one.

And whoops, totally off-topic, and discussing craft no less. Talk about a troubling, dangerous trend.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Elisa: Yup. That occurred to me, too.

David: My editor kind of convinced me that going with the reeeeeal downer ending vs. the only somewhat downer ending would be a mistake. From her perspective as a reader, she wouldn't have liked it nearly as much. Which is what I intuited as I began thinking through the ending. So in this instance, I sided with what readers would like versus what I as the author believe would be more jarring.

When I went back and re-edited Fatal Exchange, I softened the torture scenes by at least 50%, even though I wrote them in an extremely graphic, gritty way originally. But I lost a fair number of readers with that, I know, because some just don't like that level of violence. The book has sold much better since I did so, and there has been a lower return rate, so again, my instinct as publisher is the correct one. My author instinct can sometimes get me into trouble...


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> As someone who's killed off several main (and I mean, *main*) characters, I definitely can sympathize here. One thing I've had to learn over the course of writing all these books is to ignore this inherent tendency to believe that the darker, more depressing series of events/ending are somehow better, and will carry more impact. In re-editing my Shadowdance series for Orbit, I reread the ending to the third book, and this one in particular I'd tried to have all gritty and depressing because that's how you really put some oomph into the ending of a trilogy, right? Except after having some time and space, I came back and wondered what the heck was wrong with me. The tone didn't work. The dire attitude in my characters wasn't supported. I lightened up the ending tremendously, and am far prouder of it now.
> 
> That, and think about this: one ending is more literary, darker, more open ended. One satisfies readers. Why should the self-serving one I as the author like be inherently better than the one that makes the readers happy? In a simple comparison: George Lucas wanted the Millenium Falcon to be destroyed in Return of the Jedi during the second death star's explosion, killing off Lando Calrissian. This would have been more impactful, right? Darker, adding a nice somber ending in which the costs of war are made clear, and one of the heroes loses both his best friend and his iconic ship. But viewers haaaated it, and I think most people would agree that that ending just isn't the right one.
> 
> And whoops, totally off-topic, and discussing craft no less. Talk about a troubling, dangerous trend.


As a lover of "dark stuff" I can't really agree with you, but I don't think you are totally wrong either. When gritty and dark is bad is when it is done because it's cool (or because your supposed to or any reason that doesn't grow out of the story). It has to be an organic outgrowth of the story to work properly. And sometimes readers haaaaate it, but that doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do. It is supposed to hurt. Hell, writing it sometimes hurts me. The part where James Douglas kills the woman he loves literally made me cry when I was writing _A Kingdom's Cost_.

I've received a complaint or two about killing all the characters my readers like, but when you're writing about wars people suffer and die. And sometimes the one who dies is someone you like or care about.

ETA: I do think there are times when we should give the reader a story that may not be the easiest to read. It may not be a feel-good story. Not all stories should be. As writers at times we should do what feels right for the story. As readers, we deserve stories that really make us think and to feel.

ETA: But maybe readers of HF are more accepting than others of "life's a bitch and then you die" stories.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> As someone who's killed off several main (and I mean, *main*) characters, I definitely can sympathize here. One thing I've had to learn over the course of writing all these books is to ignore this inherent tendency to believe that the darker, more depressing series of events/ending are somehow better, and will carry more impact. In re-editing my Shadowdance series for Orbit, I reread the ending to the third book, and this one in particular I'd tried to have all gritty and depressing because that's how you really put some oomph into the ending of a trilogy, right? Except after having some time and space, I came back and wondered what the heck was wrong with me. The tone didn't work. The dire attitude in my characters wasn't supported. I lightened up the ending tremendously, and am far prouder of it now.
> 
> That, and think about this: one ending is more literary, darker, more open ended. One satisfies readers. Why should the self-serving one I as the author like be inherently better than the one that makes the readers happy? In a simple comparison: George Lucas wanted the Millenium Falcon to be destroyed in Return of the Jedi during the second death star's explosion, killing off Lando Calrissian. This would have been more impactful, right? Darker, adding a nice somber ending in which the costs of war are made clear, and one of the heroes loses both his best friend and his iconic ship. But viewers haaaated it, and I think most people would agree that that ending just isn't the right one.
> 
> And whoops, totally off-topic, and discussing craft no less. Talk about a troubling, dangerous trend.


I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing more threads like this, that focus on things like the proud moments of finding the best ending for a book.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing more threads like this, that focus on things like the proud moments of finding the best ending for a book.


But it grew out of the conversation and wasn't forced on anyone. That is the difference--a BIG one.

ETA: I avoid those "Here is a craft thread: let's talk about XXXX" threads like the plague. My reaction is always, I have a good book on that from Stephen King or Nancy Kress or Ray Bradbury. A conversation in which we share our mutual challenges is totally different to me.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> As someone who's killed off several main (and I mean, *main*) characters, I definitely can sympathize here.


And yet you refuse, even to this day, to kill off Justin Bieber.

Dag-nabbit, man, that COULD be a light-hearted ending!

And so, because of you, millions of preteen girls sadly slip into Belieber-mentia in growing numbers, each and every day... you monster!


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> But it grew out of the conversation and wasn't forced on anyone. That is the difference--a BIG one.
> 
> ETA: I avoid those "Here is a craft thread: let's talk about XXXX" threads like the plague. My reaction is always, I have a good book on that from Stephen King or Nancy Kress or Ray Bradbury. A conversation in which we share our mutual challenges is totally different to me.


Agreed. In the past I've shared on Kboards how while workshopping _The 15th Star_, I had people tell me the story wasn't about Keiko, the modern times heroine, but about Grace Wisher, a real person in history. So I thought about it, took out most of the slightly in the future story, and expanded on the historical scenes that occur during the War of 1812.

It's a better book. Even my lowest star ratings mention what a great plot and story it is.
See how craft discussions can naturally occcur within a thread?

I don't care if writers are only in it for the money. I don't care if other authors here are only interested in pursuing it for the sake of art.

I write because I've always written stories. From the age of five on. I don't care that you don't care about why I write, or even if you make incorrect assumptions as to why I write.

I come here because Kboards has its fingers on the pulse of publishing better than any other blog or forum I've run across. I come here because of the active discussions and because I enjoy talking to other writers. It's the same reason I go out of my way to meet other writers for write-ins (like for NaNoWriMo) or just to say hi, like when I met Hugh Howey and his wonderful other half.

On Indie Authors I direct other writers to come to the Writers' Cafe, and when I receive emails asking for advice, I direct those folks here, too.

I like that we don't all agree, that we are all writing for a wide variety of reasons, and that we have all flavors of writers; it makes it more fun.

Thanks everybody for providing your shared experiences mixed with entertainment. I enjoy you all.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

C.C. Kelly said:


> *Writing the book is MARKETING* and this is often ignored.


No, it isn't. Not for all of us.

And maybe it's this what Joe finds worrying.

Don't misunderstand me. I have the greatest respect for writers who love a specific genre, study it and write a crowd-pleaser, even going as far as changing their book to please even more of the crowd.

But this is not the case for all of us.

When I am writing I don't care about the reader (and even less about other writers). It's not about them. It's not about me. It's about the story. Nothing else. Don't like the story? Fine. Read something else, but I'm not going to change one iota because it would please readers more.

This puts writers like me in a rather awkward position. We have a product and once it is finished we want to find a readership for it _as is_. This is, of course, a very different kind of marketing exercise than writing a book with your audience always looking over your shoulder. (Again, I have the utmost respect for those who can do it but it's just not me).
Put it another way: if ever I should go the trade publishing way, which I don't exclude, I don't want an agent telling me what I should change about _my_ book so _he_ can sell it. I want an agent who is competent enough to sell the book I wrote.

What irks me just a little bit (and maybe that is part of what worries Joe as well) is that I get the feeling that some think that we are doing it *wrong*. That theirs is the only professional way to go.


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## spajonas (Jun 4, 2013)

Modified to remove content by poster.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Andrew Ashling said:


> No, it isn't. Not for all of us.
> 
> And maybe this what Joe finds worrying.
> 
> ...


I agree until you get to the point of saying that people are saying we are doing it wrong. Mind you, there is a lot of disagreement about how to do it (whatever "it" is). Maybe it's that I have a fair amount of self-confidence (who'd a thought it?) but when David says "change the story because it will make the editor and readers happy" and I say "don't because it messes up the story and being unhappy is good for them", I believe we are just giving our own point-of-view and neither of us is necessarily wrong. Just different. Writing is a funny business and there is rarely an absolute right or wrong. I think most of us on this forum know that (and if we don't we'll soon be told  )


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

blakebooks said:


> Adam:
> 
> I would call it more common sense than compromising my artistic integrity. That, and I'm an airport read novelist, not writing the next Lord of the Flies, so there's only so far you can venture from accepted formulas before you cross over from being marketable to being ignored.


Russell, thanks for the reply. It's clear you have artistic integrity, but this is still a tough one to wrap my brain around: serving the story vs serving reader expectations. I'm sure we could do 15 pages on that subject alone around here.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Russell, thanks for the reply. It's clear you have artistic integrity, but this is still a tough one to wrap my brain around: serving the story vs serving reader expectations. I'm sure we could do 15 pages on that subject alone around here.





> When I am writing I don't care about the reader (and even less about other writers). It's not about them. It's not about me. It's about the story. Nothing else. Don't like the story? Fine. Read something else, but I'm not going to change one iota because it would it would please readers more.
> 
> This puts writers like me in a rather awkward position. We have a product and once it is finished we want to find a readership for it as is. This is, of course, a very different kind of marketing exercise than writing a book with your audience always looking over your shoulder. (Again, I have the utmost respect for those who can do it but it's just not me).
> Put it another way: if ever I should go the trade publishing way, which I don't exclude, I don't want an agent telling me what I should change about my book so he can sell it. I want an agent who is competent enough to sell the book I wrote.


 You guys are stating what I tell feel and possibly what Joe wanted to say. (Edited now that surgery drugs have worn off.  )


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> Russell, thanks for the reply. It's clear you have artistic integrity, but this is still a tough one to wrap my brain around: serving the story vs serving reader expectations. I'm sure we could do 15 pages on that subject alone around here.


That also happens in movies. Fatal Attraction, Pretty in Pink, those all had a different ending which didn't test well during the audience testing phase so they changed it for more mass appeal, to make the audience happy. Now they can sell the original ending as DVD bonus. It's something we could do as well. Bonus addendum, the original ending that was deemed too dark/sad/whatever for readers. Market both endings if you feel conflicted. Guess I'm part of the troubling tendency.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "If one writes a book for personal reasons, without any intention of publishing, then this is pretty much the same as painting or music or baking - not marketing."


Agree. And regardless of his subsequent actions, writing the book wasn't marketing. Unless the book is _Schrodinger's Cat._


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

C C Kelly:  It may have been long, but it was very well said and logical.

One thing I think everyone here can agree upon is that regardless of why you write, or why you started writing, is that the time that you're writing the "wrong" way is when you aren't writing to the best of your ability. I think that's all a reader can ask of any of us.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Agree. And regardless of his subsequent actions, writing the book wasn't marketing. Unless the book is _Schrodinger's Cat._


Schrodinger's son taught math where I attended high school.

/brag 
/non-sequitur


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

One thing that always baffled me is that in the UK it is "maths" while in the "math". Another non sequitur.  

ETA: Is the tendency toward non sequiturs in threads troubling? Betsy may soon show up with a cattle prod for the thread being derailed.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Schrodinger's son taught math where I attended high school.
> 
> /brag
> /non-sequitur


Was he dead or alive?


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Alan Petersen said:


> That also happens in movies. Fatal Attraction, Pretty in Pink, those all had a different ending which didn't test well during the audience testing phase so they changed it for more mass appeal, to make the audience happy.


This should go down well with writers of historical fiction.

A Nazi Enigma machine was captured by the Brits, which eventually led to breaking the German secret code. In a movie they changed that to the Americans capturing the device. Probably because it would "please" more people, and after all, it's just good old entertainment and who cares about the historical truth?

I'm sure JR Tomlin is rewriting one of her books at this very moment so that the English win the Battle of Bannockburn, just to please more readers.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Andrew Ashling said:


> This should go down well with writers of historical fiction.
> 
> A Nazi Enigma machine was captured by the Brits, which eventually led to breaking the German secret code. In a movie they changed that to the Americans capturing the device. Probably because it would "please" more people, and after all, it's just good old entertainment and who cares about the historical truth?
> 
> I'm sure JR Tomlin is rewriting one of her books at this very moment so that the English win the Battle of Bannockburn, just to please more readers.


Please don't get JRT started on historical inaccuracies in movies. Braveheart is sure to come up... 

Betsy


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Please don't get JRT started on historical inaccuracies in movies. Braveheart is sure to come up...


Ah, God, please! No Braveheart!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Someone called?


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

I think that writing is marketing in the sense that the more books you have out, the more visible you are to readers. 

So for indies with limited time, the marketing decision could be to spend time trying to advertise your current books, or to spend it writing the next book.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> When writing a book, option one is to attempt to predict the market or satisfy reader expectations. This strategy improves the odds of consistent sales (assuming the book is quality). This strategy is less likely to generate a run-away bestseller. This is a conclusion based upon market data. I based this conclusion on the steady stream of repetitive genre books that temporarily grace the bestsellers list.
> 
> Option two is to write for art and ignore the market. This strategy decreases the odds of consistent sales, but improves the odds of a break-out bestseller, because the story is unique and has the possibility of resonating in a new way that crosses-over into multiple markets. This is also a conclusion based upon market data. If one looks back over the last few decades, many of the runaway bestsellers defined new genres, shattered convention and resonated in new and extraordinary ways. I just finished Fight Club, I can't believe it got published. It's a must read in my opinion - very dark and not market friendly in any way.
> 
> ...


What a fabulous post.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Andrew Ashling said:


> This should go down well with writers of historical fiction.
> 
> A Nazi Enigma machine was captured by the Brits, which eventually led to breaking the German secret code. In a movie they changed that to the Americans capturing the device. Probably because it would "please" more people, and after all, it's just good old entertainment and who cares about the historical truth?
> 
> I'm sure JR Tomlin is rewriting one of her books at this very moment so that the English win the Battle of Bannockburn, just to please more readers.


In that genre, the readers would not be pleased, so that would be an asinine thing to do, since it would not please the reader. You must know your audience, you're not going to make money by ticking off the readers, it defeats the whole purpose of what is being debated.

Gee-whiz, I mention Fatal Attraction and Pretty in Pink and someone takes offense that history is being re-written to make money when that wasn't even implied. Peace out, people are too edgy in this thread. Battle on.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "Braveheart was a great movie.
> So was The Patriot."


God Bless Mel Gibson.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Alan Petersen said:


> In that genre, the readers would not be pleased, so that would be an asinine thing to do, since it would not please the reader. You must know your audience, you're not going to make money by ticking off the readers, it defeats the whole purpose of what is being debated.
> 
> Gee-whiz, I mention Fatal Attraction and Pretty in Pink and someone takes offense that history is being re-written to make money when that wasn't even implied. Peace out, people are too edgy in this thread. Battle on.


You should look up the words satire, irony and jocular.

Peace, brother.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Mel Gibson in a kilt is an abomination. Nobody should be subjected to that. I don't even care about any historical hoohah, just no. Mel Gibson in anything is just wrong. 

I'd like to keep my fantasy of the sexy kilted scotsman, thank you very much.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Or to put together a brand from the beginning, including the book, genre, cover, description, pricing, distribution channel, paperbacks, author bio, author central, blog, linking rss feeds, FB, interacting on forums, guest blogging (occasionally), networking and spending time interacting with your target audience in non-promotional ways, such as goodreads - while you write the next book that will reinforce your brand and appeal to your fans.
> 
> Most of that list precedes publishing. And all of is marketing.


To each his own, but I'd rather spend my time writing.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Braveheart was a great movie.
> So was The Patriot.
> 
> Um, in fact, lots of glaringly inaccurate historical movies are entertaining. But, that is a <insert clever obscure historical reference here> of a different <insert associated pun here>, if I say so myself.
> ...


I would have appreciated both of those movies more (ok, a LOT more) if Gibson had admitted they were fantasies and had nothing to do with history. They had absolutely nothing to do with either Scottish or American history.



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Please don't get JRT started on historical inaccuracies in movies. Braveheart is sure to come up...
> 
> Betsy


Too late. 

ETA: However, Braveheart and The Patriot emphasize the difference in movies and books. An author who tries that shit in a historical novel usually gets ripped limb from limb in the reviews. HF readers know the difference and if they don't they tend to look it up. Movie viewers tend not to care even when they're told. I guess it comes down to no one looks to movies to inform them and few look for intelligence.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Mel Gibson in a kilt is an abomination.


Let's just eliminate the words "in a kilt" and keep the rest of the statement!


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## Robert A Michael (Apr 30, 2012)

Most of us here are more than authors.  We are publishers.  We fulfill multiple roles in this book-building business.  And let's not forget that, either.  It is a business in which we are engaged.  

If we were in the book-giving-away business, we would not need this type of forum. We would go to a forum where we discussed the efficacy of parting the veil in fiction or the whether eliminating all the contractions in our writing makes it feel stilted.  These types of forums are not bad.  In fact, we engage in these types of discussions here.  But, we also discuss topics that touch on our roles as publishers, marketers, public relations specialists, social marketing managers, web site designers, and brand managers.  

Self-publishing is fun, rewarding, and liberating.  I like being in control (my wife does too, but that's another story).  One of the things that I like controlling is the story and what I want to write next.  I think for most authors, this choice is a balancing act.  Writing is personal.  If it were to remain personal (we are not sharing it), then that is where the decision can end.  However, if we intend to share it, then there is a greater responsibility to an audience.  You can label that as being commercial, I suppose. However, understanding and writing with your audience in mind is what I teach my writing students. It is the advice I give my children as they go off to college and write essays.  It is the advice I give my son who studying to become a minister.  The audience shapes what we write in some way, even if that audience is only ONE.

To answer the OP's original question--and I have only read 25% of the 17 pages of this thread--I guess for me success is reached when the audience (or a vast majority of this audience) is satisfied with the story.  If I can tell a tale around a campfire and get a chuckle or someone repeating a punchline or two the next day, I feel a heady sense of success.  If someone approaches me and thanks me for writing my book, I feel I have succeeded.  If that person purchased my book, then I was doubly successful.

And, to that point, I have to say, since I am my first reader (and therefore a vital member of my audience), I often make myself very happy.  I think that is the best part about writing:  when you can honestly say you enjoyed reading something you have written.  I read a lot. I am not my favorite author.  But, I am quickly moving up the charts.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> I never expect movies to be an accurate reflection of reality, historically or otherwise (and especially not of the book it is based on). But I always hope.


There is that, but you would be horrified-- ok, *I* am horrified at how many people think Braveheart is history. I assume some people take The Patriot for history too. That is discouraging.

So I assume there are people out there who think movies are an accurate reflection of reality.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> So I assume there are people out there who think movies are an accurate reflection of reality.


Since there are also people out there that need to have a printed warning not to spray bug spray in their eyes, etc I am thinking you are quite probably right.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

We don't lock threads just because someone mentions politics, but I do get out the cattle prod.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Um, I don't mean to sound elitist, but (yes I do), most people have a tenuous grasp of history at best.
> 
> And at the risk of getting the thread locked - judging by their actions, this includes most politicians.
> 
> We need a face-palm emoticon.


You're right about so many people having a tenuous grasp of history but the total disrespect of movie makers for the most basic accuracy doesn't help. And... I ain't touching the subject of politics. I've been grumpy about that subject for days. 

I'd like a face-palm emoticon and a popcorn one.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

Hey, even us die-hard write-for-the-passion types keep one eye on our audience some of the time. I've been having an ongoing tug-of-war with myself about a future series of mine. I suspect it would have more inherent reader appeal if I made some major changes to the concept (as in, "make the heroes the villains and vice versa" kind of changes). That's not the story I want to write, so I plan to side with my authorial vision, for the most part... but I _am _going to see if I can find places in the series where I might be able to compromise, to see if I can add a bit of the feeling that the major change would create.

And part of the reason I chose to write the sequel to The Torturer's Daughter instead of one of the other ideas floating around in my head (I wanted to say "trying to claw their way out of my head," but that sounds kind of gruesome) was commercial - I wanted to put the sequel out fairly soon after publishing the first book, because I figured that would do better for me sales-wise than going off to other projects for a while and coming back to the sequel years later.

On the other hand, a lot of reviewers have pointed out something they would have liked me to do differently in The Torturer's Daughter, and it's something I could potentially change in the rest of the series, but it runs counter to the thing that made me want to write these stories in the first place. So I'm going 100% authorial vision on that one. I'd rather put up with complaints than change the core concept. If all else fails, I can put on a pair of hipster glasses and complain that they _just don't understand my art._


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## P.C. (Peter) Anders (Feb 6, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I suspect this is all a cultural holdover from the days when the nobility, clergy, and artists considered themselves superior to the merchant. I also see this theme in much of the criticism of independents that comes from traditional publishing.


Come on, the cultural holdover continues at least in that artists ARE superior to the merchant. It's a pity that artists have to be merchants these days, but which artist (or president), in his heart, regardless of his democratic public statements ("I'm a man of the people; I eat my Wonder Bread like anyone else.') considers himself inferior to or equal to the merchant? Or that Bob Dylan, an artist, considers the 7-11 store owner or motel operator to be a "bro"?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

P.C. (Peter) Anders said:


> Come on, the cultural holdover continues at least in that artists ARE superior to the merchant. It's a pity that artists have to be merchants these days, but which artist (or president), in his heart, regardless of his democratic public statements ("I'm a man of the people; I eat my Wonder Bread like anyone else.') considers himself inferior to or equal to the merchant?


These days?

Artists have ALWAYS had to be merchants unless they wanted to starve to death for their art. The way in which artists behave as merchants changes over time, but artists have always had to be. Renaissance artists had to find and please patrons. 20th century writers had to pitch to agents and publishers. We try to sell on Amazon. None of it is all that different when you get right down to it. Unless we want to lock our writing in a drawer like Emily Dickenson, we're going to be merchants in part.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Caddy said:


> Since there are also people out there that need to have a printed warning not to spray bug spray in their eyes, etc I am thinking you are quite probably right.


I suspect lots of them are authors.



P.C. (Peter) Anders said:


> Come on, the cultural holdover continues at least in that artists ARE superior to the merchant. It's a pity that artists have to be merchants these days, but which artist (or president), in his heart, regardless of his democratic public statements ("I'm a man of the people; I eat my Wonder Bread like anyone else.') considers himself inferior to or equal to the merchant? Or that Bob Dylan, an artist, considers the 7-11 store owner or motel operator to be a "bro"?


I have have far more respect for the 7-11 guy than I do for Zimmerman and his artsy followers. I don't care what Zimmerman thinks.


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## P.C. (Peter) Anders (Feb 6, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> These days?
> 
> Artists have ALWAYS had to be merchants unless they wanted to starve to death for their art. The way in which artists behave as merchants changes over time, but artists have always had to be. Renaissance artists had to find and please patrons. 20th century writers had to pitch to agents and publishers. We try to sell on Amazon. None of it is all that different when you get right down to it. Unless we want to lock our writing in a drawer like Emily Dickenson, we're going to be merchants in part.


Okay, you have a point, as does Terence. Even the merchant probably thinks himself superior to the artist (some merchants do, and billionaires nearly always do--even Donald Trump, though he is NOT). The point is that many writers (and other artists) choose art in complete disregard of financial realities, because its value, to them, is beyond money. And they could only do that if they considered art to be superior to other forms of human endeavor. How many, at university level, choose to get their PhDs in English, knowing they are probably going to be adjunct professors for life earning a fraction of a supermarket store manager, when they could far more easily earn an MBA degree from a good college?


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Well, now I've had a great chuckle re: Artists not having to be merchants.

In earlier times, artists were "kept" by wealthy families and could only paint what the family wanted. In exchange they were given food and lodging. SOmetimes poor food and lodging, sometimes they were treated as a family member. But they had no freedom.

Then the camera was invented. Now, artists were not necessary to record rich peoples lives. They were no longer "kept" and had to sell their paintings. Freedom! But now they weren't guaranteed food or a home. Regardless, , the most forward thinking realized that to continue painting realism would be a death knell. With that pesky camera, they were becoming redundant. (Call them indies!)

Still, the public and the powers of all things art in Paris did NOT appreciate people breaking the rules! Didn't those upstarts know they had to paint with certain brushstrokes? Paint only certain subjects? Paint those subjects according to the teachings? (Kind of sound familiar, like don't those writers know they have to never head hop? Don't info dump? Write certain genre? Stick to the formula in that genre? Don't this and that?) These forward thinking artists were laughed at, spurned, and ignored. They were banned from the all important Salon, where an artist would find commissions for the year.

Renoir and Degas had to go door to door and try to sell paintings on more than one occasion, so that they could try to avoid eviction or starvation. At one time Picasso lived in such a poor room that if a glass of water was left out at night by morning it was frozen solid (although he came later, he changed art yet again). Even the other artists turned their backs on him when he painted his first cubism. Vincent van Gogh was another who even other artists made fun of most of the time.

Yet, despite the "authorities" of Paris art telling these men their art did not appeal and couldn't sell, they kept painting the way they wanted to paint. The way that fed passion. When Renoir, Degas, Monet and others were refused entry into the Salon, they started their own exhibition. (Kind of like traditional publishing houses thumbing there noses so some went to KDP). When the reviewers and the public didn't show up, they kept trying. When they were lamblasted with negative reviews, they kept painting the way they wanted to paint. Because of that we have Impressionism. 

Renoir and Picasso ended up "making it" in their lifetime on their own terms. More than that, they were at last wealthy. Many others did not make it and after their death achieved fame. Most never did. Just like indie authors. Some who write it exactly how they have to write will make it big, some who write how they think readers want it will make it big. Most won't in either category. Some will see it during their lifetime. Some will have relatives that reap the benefits. And some will change their style because they enjoy the act of writing in general instead of needing to write "that certain style". It's all cool. There's room for all of us. 

One group isn't superior to the other.   Some want to be the Thomas Kincaid of indie writing (commercial). Others are "painting out of the lines" in their writing, and a few of those will become a Picasso. The latter know they have a smaller chance. They press on because they have no choice. It's who they are. Not better. Not worse. Just who they are.

Oh, another chuckle: that artists feel they are above others. Um, hardly. Throughout history, painters have been looked down upon by society as libertines, lazy people who play with paint, only an eyelash above gypsies and circus people. They were regarded with suspicion and snubbed. Oh, good enough for a roll in the hay, good enough to hire for a portrait, but certainly not good enough to be invited to any social events at one's home-or greeted on the street if you were with your own class (not always, but many times), unless the artist had achieved fame. Calling them "bohemians" was not complimentary. Nor was the name "Impressionist". Impressionist was a derogatory term a reviewer came up with, saying they only painted impressions of "real" paintings.

So, I don't get where a couple people on here think that artists feel they are better than others. Perhaps they are elitist in that they band together and hold their standards for seeing things more open-mindedly and finding new ways of expressing themselves as positive traits that most people don't have (I mean, come on, most people are lemmings)...but that is probably because any group that society in general frowns upon DOES band together and DOES dare to see things differently and SOME affect change. But I doubt most artists even today think they are "above" others. Most artists still live in poverty and people are offended when they can't get an original oil painting for $25.00. 

I love when someone asks "Well, how long did it take you?" My whole life.  "How much did it cost you to do?"  Seriously? Let's see: lessons, supplies (good supplies are very expensive), time spent painting instead of pursuing a career where I get a paycheck, ummm...if I charge you what it cost me no one could afford it.  I am talking as the artist in general, not as me, although many times I have wanted to say something kind of the same.

And now I am done with my artist rant.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> I agree until you get to the point of saying that people are saying we are doing it wrong. Mind you, there is a lot of disagreement about how to do it (whatever "it" is). Maybe it's that I have a fair amount of self-confidence (who'd a thought it?) but when David says "_change the story because it will make the editor and readers happy_"


But that's not what I said. I said there's a temptation, this belief, that somehow darker = stronger, bloodier and grittier = more realistic, that serious = more literary and worthy to be taken seriously. When I rewrote the note from the author at the end of the Orbit re-release of book three, I actually comment on how the original ending didn't feel like it even matched the earlier parts of the book. I had a main character give this dour summary of events, and I'm pretty sure he'd read a different book than the one I wrote, because it simply wasn't that dark. And that's ignoring my almost killing off two of the major three characters, an ending I was talked out of by my good friend Rob Duperre. His advice was simple: the dark ending I was going to write was awesome as a _specific moment_, but terrible as both an ending to a trilogy, and a reward for the investment readers had put into my world.



> Dear David, (hopefully I can call you that)
> No I don't agree that it was a good ending surely poor
> 
> 
> ...


Someone wrote me this email about the ending to my Paladin series. I killed off a very beloved character, and one of my favorites of all time. But I did it because the story required it. It was where everything lead to. It wasn't because I wanted to shock readers. It wasn't because I thought it'd be a huge twist. It was because it was the _right_ ending, the one the story deserved. It's also the best book I've ever written, period. Nowhere did I say that lightening up a story should be done to further sales. There's a difference between that, and respecting the opinions and reactions of your own personal fanbase. Sometimes you need to step back and decide just why you're doing the things you do in your story, and sometimes you need someone besides yourself to take a look at it with fresh eyes and tell you things you don't want to hear.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

P.C. (Peter) Anders said:


> Come on, the cultural holdover continues at least in that artists ARE superior to the merchant. It's a pity that artists have to be merchants these days, but which artist (or president), in his heart, regardless of his democratic public statements ("I'm a man of the people; I eat my Wonder Bread like anyone else.') considers himself inferior to or equal to the merchant? Or that Bob Dylan, an artist, considers the 7-11 store owner or motel operator to be a "bro"?


Really?

Did you really go on record saying you believe any one person is superior to another?


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## Katherine Roberts (Apr 4, 2013)

Rykymus said:


> This topic is no different than the write faster vs. write slower topic, or the outline vs. pantsing topic. The temperature rises when someone (inadvertently) infers (usually by a poor choice of words) that someone's work is inferior because of the way/method/reason/speed at which they produce it. Sometimes it is the fault of the poster. Sometimes it is the fault of the reader of the post. More often than not, it's a bit of both.


Thank you Cherise, justsomewriterwhow, Robert and Rykymus... I suppose it's all too easy to write a reply to a topic like this that doesn't come across quite the way it was meant to. I'm not sure if Jayallan is reading this thread any more, but I'll accept partial blame for any misunderstanding caused by my original post here.

I think maybe I took Jay's reply personally because I don't, in fact, feel superior to anyone here, quite the opposite - the reason I publish a book is to find readers (i.e sell copies), so if my books are not selling as well as I'd like them to, then I tend to protect myself by putting on some artistic armour. 

Anyway, the reason I joined - as others here have mentioned - is to learn more about the "merchant" side of things, and that's what I'm enjoying about these boards. So thank you everyone. I've learnt a lot from this discussion and I'm not out yet.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

I read through this entire thread and want to thank everyone who participated. A lot of excellent posts on all sides of the many issues, so many that I can't even point to just a few. Great thread.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> But that's not what I said. I said there's a temptation, this belief, that somehow darker = stronger, bloodier and grittier = more realistic, that serious = more literary and worthy to be taken seriously. When I rewrote the note from the author at the end of the Orbit re-release of book three, I actually comment on how the original ending didn't feel like it even matched the earlier parts of the book. I had a main character give this dour summary of events, and I'm pretty sure he'd read a different book than the one I wrote, because it simply wasn't that dark. And that's ignoring my almost killing off two of the major three characters, an ending I was talked out of by my good friend Rob Duperre. His advice was simple: the dark ending I was going to write was awesome as a _specific moment_, but terrible as both an ending to a trilogy, and a reward for the investment readers had put into my world.
> 
> Someone wrote me this email about the ending to my Paladin series. I killed off a very beloved character, and one of my favorites of all time. But I did it because the story required it. It was where everything lead to. It wasn't because I wanted to shock readers. It wasn't because I thought it'd be a huge twist. It was because it was the _right_ ending, the one the story deserved. It's also the best book I've ever written, period. Nowhere did I say that lightening up a story should be done to further sales. There's a difference between that, and respecting the opinions and reactions of your own personal fanbase. Sometimes you need to step back and decide just why you're doing the things you do in your story, and sometimes you need someone besides yourself to take a look at it with fresh eyes and tell you things you don't want to hear.


David, you did mention that a different ending would make readers happy so I don't think my paraphrase was totally wrong. And there is nothing wrong with wanting to make readers happy in my opinion. But I also pointed out (in that post I think) that a dark ending needs to grow out of and match the rest of the novel and not just be tacked on for effect.


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