# BoingBoing: "Kindle user claims Amazon deleted whole library"



## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Oh dear, here they go again:

http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/

I love Amazon, and want to remain a fan, but sometimes they make it hard.

Since reading this, I've downloaded all my books and converted them all to epubs!


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

This is why I drag books from my 'cloud' to a zip drive on a regular basis. And I try to buy drm free.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I feel certain there's more to the story than is related in that rather short post.


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## HeyDrew (Sep 12, 2011)

Yeah, this is shady.  I'm sure there's another side, there always is, but the longer Amazon stays silent on the matter the more the speculation will spread.  Not a smart move on their part.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

This is very scary and Kafkaesque. There's more to the story, of course, and I'd love to hear it. The frightening thing is the lack of accountability on Amazon's part, that they don't feel obligated to explain *why* the account has been blocked or to offer evidence or have any kind of transparent, open court-like process for reviewing the charges.

Luckily, in American society at large, this kind of injustice can't possibly happen. We have _habeas corpus_ protecting our rights, and citizens can't be imprisoned on mere suspicion of illegal acts and held indefinitely without trial.

Oh, wait....


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I feel certain there's more to the story than is related in that rather short post.


Yes, Amazon take customer care, customer relations, and public relations very seriously. This would just be so out of character for the company. It sounds from various recent complaints, as if they have recently introduced some kind of automated IP checking software that is making links where none exist (probably due to roving IPs, possibly even confused by people accessing the server from another country and traveling through the same internet route as other people?) This could be another casualty of that, in which case, I think we'll soon see some apologies from Amazon, because I think it must be starting to become clear to them by now that their system is throwing up a lot of false positives.

This would be a PR gaffe much worse than deleting one pirated book off people's kindles. It's also something that an anti-Amazon campaigner might make up to smear them and to undermine public confidence in their brand. If it's true, then I suspect that we'll hear a lot more about it (and about other cases) - because this is something that certain media outlets would love to run with if they can back it up. If that's the case, then I imagine Amazon will change the policy pretty swiftly and will be quick to reassure customers of the policy change.

In short, I don't think that this would be a situation that Amazon management would ever intentionally create. So, if it has actually happened, I don't think it will be happening again any time soon once this hits the news outlets!


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Just to update this, speculation over at Boing Boing is that she purchased from Amazon UK but doesn't live in the UK. This is apparently against Amazon's terms.

How many people here have purchased from an Amazon store outside their own country? I don't think I ever _have_ purchased an ebook from my local Amazon! They know where I live, and happily sell me stuff everyday from their UK store. I'm off to read their T&Cs in more detail...


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Zelah Meyer said:


> In short, I don't think that this would be a situation that Amazon management would ever intentionally create. So, if it has actually happened, I don't think it will be happening again any time soon once this hits the news outlets!


I'm also not convinced that things are quite as Kafkaesque as this seems. Amazon is basically a huge company trying to deal with customers while spending as little cash on that as possible. They've heard every story twice and what the customer hears is not always what Support said (can you tell that I've done time at a help desk?)

I'm not defending poor customer service, of course.

For my part, I am having a problem with scheduling promo days. When I enter three days, it shows that I've used four. Amazon helpdesk couldn't figure it out and asked me for a screenshot. I got an immediate reply, asking me for my patience and promising a reply by the end of the day tomorrow. So far, that all seems very professional.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

HarryDayle said:


> Just to update this, speculation over at Boing Boing is that she purchased from Amazon UK but doesn't live in the UK. This is apparently against Amazon's terms.


Wow, weird. US Canadians HAVE to shop in the US. The only reason I can see that they want people to stick to certain geographical servers is for statistical purposes, taxation, tariffs and marketing, I suppose.
I.e. if you're in Sweden and decide to download from Italy, it affects Amazon and makes no difference to the reader.


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## ShaunaG (Jun 16, 2011)

This has happened in the past. Someone at the same address did something to violate the TOS and any account linked to that address is wiped. One main offense is constantly returning things. With books you have 7 days to return a book, no questions asked, so people were using that as a way to read unlimited amounts of books for free. Of course eventually Amazon notices and shuts that account down, and any other account at the same address as the offender. One person blogged about it and it went viral where he was accused of returning one too many physical objects, like a TV and a sound system and he got his account shut down, including his Kindle. 

But it is strange that they aren't answering the questions, what is the violation? Or, how is my account linked to another? That would be simple enough to answer.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Thought you folks would like to know about an article that showed up in my feed this morning:

_"According to Martin Bekkelund, a Norwegian Amazon customer identified only as Linn had her Kindle access revoked without warning or explanation. Her account was closed, and her Kindle was remotely wiped. Bekkelund has posted a string of emails that he says were sent to Linn by the company."_

_"My guess is that Amazon has the capability to wipe any file from any Kindle, and likely also has the ability to read any file on any Kindle. I'd further speculate that the policy violation that Linn stands accused of is using a friend's UK address to buy Amazon UK English Kindle books from Norway. This is a symptom of Amazon's -- and every single other ebook retailer's -- hopelessness at managing "open territory" for ebooks."_

http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-dele.html

Publisher's Weekly offers this definition of open territories:

_The "open market" refers to territories where publishers can sell their English-language editions in a country that has not created its own English-language edition. Historically, U.K. publishers have dominated the open market, which has traditionally been focused on continental Europe, as the British have had the easiest access to this area. No longer. The open market is much bigger now, with more demand in, and access to, places like China and India. But the ability to restrict access to titles becomes more complicated with digital books....If devices don't have a meaningful way of blocking those outside the U.S. from downloading the North American edition of a book instead of the British edition, the idea of the open market itself dissolves..._

More detail here: http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/publisher-news/article/45643-what-s-ahead-in-2011.html#open

So this account closure (and the resultant Kindle library erasure) appears to be related to a breach of open territory conventions (aka, being registered with a retailer in one territory and then purchasing book titles in another). Amazon has yet to offer comment, so obviously we should wait to hear their side of the story. This erasure may have be conducted for an entirely different reason or required by some third party organization.

Still, I think a clarification of Amazon's "open territory" purchasing rules would be most helpful. This story has given me, who travels extensively and relies on a Kindle DX for sanity maintenance, some pause. I want to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong while reading abroad. If anyone knows more about these rules, I'd be much obliged.

B.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Quiss said:


> Wow, weird. US Canadians HAVE to shop in the US. The only reason I can see that they want people to stick to certain geographical servers is for statistical purposes, taxation, tariffs and marketing, I suppose.
> I.e. if you're in Sweden and decide to download from Italy, it affects Amazon and makes no difference to the reader.


It's also possible that part of whatever agreements were reached to be allowed to operate in a given country have restrictions. So, the UK people said, for whatever reason, yes, you can distribute for Kindle via our store but it can only be available to UK residents. I've heard of Irish residents not being able to use the UK store but having to use the US store.

Of course, it could also just be that it's easier/less expensive for Amazon to have such a restriction -- basically saying, if we have an amazon.<your country> you may use it, otherwise, you have to use the main .com site.

And, yeah, if it's so posted, and you do it anyway, you're in violation, whether the reason you were even able to was lack of Amazon controls, or you used an ISP masking service, or lied and said you lived in that country when you didn't.

I would acknowledge, however, that if the fault is with Amazon -- you didn't lie about where you are or use a masking service and they still let you shop -- then Amazon should fix that hole in its system. I would try to pin down the whole story via actual communication with a real person rather than via email which may very well be answered via a 'bot of some sort -- even if signed by a real person.

If it's either of the other two reasons, however, I can't blame them.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

A more detailed story was posted to BoingBoing this AM

http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-dele.html

It appears to have to do with open territory issues. Appears being the keyword.

B.


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## BenJ (Sep 19, 2012)

If she lives in norway, and is using amazon.uk to buy books, when the is not allowed, its her own fault and I have no sympathy for her.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Two threads on the same topic have been merged into one -- sorry for any confusion.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Amazon's UK help page explains which stores you're allowed to purchase content in depending on where you live:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=200829280

I still maintain that given they know where you live, they would be better off not selling you stuff in the first place rather than selling it, then deleting it and keeping the cash. The way they're behaving (if the allegations and reasons suggested are true) is the equivalent to an off licence selling a few bottles of vodka to underage kids, then going round to their house and night and stealing it back because they should never have sold it in the first place.


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## BenJ (Sep 19, 2012)

HarryDayle said:


> Amazon's UK help page explains which stores you're allowed to purchase content in depending on where you live:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=200829280
> 
> I still maintain that given they know where you live, they would be better off not selling you stuff in the first place rather than selling it, then deleting it and keeping the cash. The way they're behaving (if the allegations and reasons suggested are true) is the equivalent to an off licence selling a few bottles of vodka to underage kids, then going round to their house and night and stealing it back because they should never have sold it in the first place.


That would be the under age kids fault for buying the alcohol in the first place.


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## sparklemotion (Jan 13, 2011)

The Consumerist has now picked up the story. As far as I'm concerned, Amazon is way in the wrong here.

http://consumerist.com/2012/10/22/amazon-erases-customers-kindle-wishes-her-luck-in-finding-somewhere-else-to-shop/


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Have to admit I'm getting a bit concerned here. I spent a few weeks working in France over the summer, and I definitely bought a few paper books on Amazon.fr while I was there. And here is the scary part: the Amazon.fr domain overruled the Amazon.com domain. I couldn't even log on to the .com website. I assumed that the fr domain was the site I had to make purchases on, and I registered for the Amazon.fr website using the same Email and USA home address as my USA Amazon.com account. I wasn't trying to trick anyone. I just wanted to pick up some of the artbooks I saw at the museums. (And they were more expensive due to VAT anyway.) Is there a way I can close that fr account?

B.


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## BenJ (Sep 19, 2012)

sparklemotion said:


> The Consumerist has now picked up the story. As far as I'm concerned, Amazon is way in the wrong here.
> 
> http://consumerist.com/2012/10/22/amazon-erases-customers-kindle-wishes-her-luck-in-finding-somewhere-else-to-shop/


Reading that article, it appears this isnt the first time she abused the system and got caught. No sympathy at all.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Have to admit I'm getting a bit concerned here. I spent a few weeks working in France over the summer, and I definitely bought a few paper books on Amazon.fr while I was there. And here is the scary part: the Amazon.fr domain overruled the Amazon.com domain. I couldn't even log on to the .com website. I assumed that the fr domain was the site I had to make purchases on, and I registered for the Amazon.fr website using the same Email and USA home address as my USA Amazon.com account. I wasn't trying to trick anyone. I just wanted to pick up some of the artbooks I saw at the museums. (And they were more expensive due to VAT anyway.) Is there a way I can close that fr account?
> 
> B.


I don't think the rules are the same for physical items as they are for digital items. Amazon doesn't have a problem with me buying physical books from Amazon UK, but I'm not allowed to buy Kindle Books. And they know I'm not in the UK -- my ISP is clearly a US ISP and my 'country' setting is United states -- so I really can't _accidentally_ do it.

I admit to not having studied all the reports but I really wonder how the person in question was allowed to purchase from the site without having either lied about her originating country or used ISP masking software.


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## sparklemotion (Jan 13, 2011)

BenJ said:


> Reading that article, it appears this isnt the first time she abused the system and got caught. No sympathy at all.


They can close her account then. I don't feel they have the right to take away books she paid for.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I don't think the rules are the same for physical items as they are for digital items. Amazon doesn't have a problem with me buying physical books from Amazon UK, but I'm not allowed to buy Kindle Books. And they know I'm not in the UK -- my ISP is clearly a US ISP and my 'country' setting is United states -- so I really can't _accidentally_ do it.


Problem is, I travel abroad a great deal, and my ISP shifts as I do. What happens the next time I'm flying through Charles de Gaulle? What if I pick up an ebook for my connecting flight? Might my Amazon.fr account override my Amazon.com account in that scenario? And "probably not" isn't an acceptable level of risk when we are talking about my entire Kindle library plus my author account. I don't want to take ANY chances with this.

B.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

So wait, someone used someone else's address that wasn't their own to bypass geographical restrictions for Kindle books. So someone knowingly violated the terms of service? Is that term of service or just violating copyright law. 

I am all for DRM free ebooks available all over the world, but one cannot just ignore the current system as it is in place and expect to get away with falsifying information. 

I have seen on other boards where some try to go through proxies etc just to buy books from an amazon store where there is better selection. Some of them got caught and had their accounts closed too.  

So you lie and you pretend to be someone you are not and then they catch you finally. 

And again, I wish ebooks were available to anyone anywhere for purchase. All this Geo stuff is just asking for people to go to the darknets, but I can't blame Amazon for shutting down violators.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

sparklemotion said:


> They can close her account then. I don't feel they have the right to take away books she paid for.


But, as has been frequently discussed, when you pay Amazon for a kindle book you're buying a license which is good as long as you abide by the terms and conditions. If you fail to do so, the license may be revoked. That appears to be what happened here, but, as I said earlier, I feel certain we don't have the whole story, so speculation is not really very useful. And conclusions based on speculation based on not-all-the-facts are completely invalid.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Problem is, I travel abroad a great deal, and my ISP shifts as I do. What happens the next time I'm flying through Charles de Gaulle? What if I pick up an ebook for my connecting flight? Might my Amazon.fr account override my Amazon.com account in that scenario? And "probably not" isn't an acceptable level of risk when we are talking about my entire Kindle library plus my author account. I don't want to take ANY chances with this.
> 
> B.


Based on discussions here from the early days of kindle, if a US person purchases a book in a foreign place, yes, Amazon can tell. But unless it appears to be a pattern it's not a problem. There were reports of people receiving communication from Amazon asking for an explanation -- when they explained that they were traveling and it was a temporary dis-location only, it was absolutely not an issue. Even those who were American citizens _living_ in foreign countries had no problem once they explained that.

If I was outside the US and wanted to buy a Kindle book -- yes, from a foreign ISP -- I would navigate to the .com page to do so. I have _not_ traveled internationally lately and _needed_ to buy a book while doing so, so I can't say for sure. . . but I would be very surprised to learn I couldn't go to the .com site from, say, the UK.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Atunah said:


> So wait, someone used someone else's address that wasn't their own to bypass geographical restrictions for Kindle books. So someone knowingly violated the terms of service? Is that term of service or just violating copyright law.
> 
> I am all for DRM free ebooks available all over the world, but one cannot just ignore the current system as it is in place and expect to get away with falsifying information.
> 
> ...


It seems to me this has nothing to do with DRM at all. . . .it has to do with a customer violating the terms of service and having had their account closed in response.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> It seems to me this has nothing to do with DRM at all. . . .it has to do with a customer violating the terms of service and having had their account closed in response.


Yes I know that, I was just inserting my opinion on how I think ebooks should be available for purchase for anyone anywhere for any device. That's all.

The reason people go to these lengths violating their terms of service is because they want to legally purchase whatever books they want, no matter where they are located. I mean they could just go to the dark nets, but they don't. They spend their money. But they are still violating the terms. So they have to live with the consequences.


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## Eltanin Publishing (Mar 24, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> It seems to me this has nothing to do with DRM at all. . . .it has to do with a customer violating the terms of service and having had their account closed in response.


One way that it is connected with DRM is that if people are afraid of something similar happening to them - losing access to their Amazon kindle library, they could download the books to their PC for safe-keeping. But if the books have DRM, and they get a new kindle, the files they download won't work on any future kindles.

I, too, tend to be skeptical until more details are known. I've heard of people putting in a foreign address temporarily to buy an ebook that was only available in another country. As the story goes, people could do this a few times with no problem, but if they did it too often got a message from Amazon saying it appeared they were in a different country, and they couldn't buy the book. It seems like, with such an apparently drastic step (closing the account and removing access to already-purchased books), Amazon would warn someone, as people have reported being warned when temporarily changing their address. It seems like one of these two details must be somewhat untrue - 1) the person is totally innocent and has no idea why this happened, and 2) Amazon cut off the account including access to purchased books with no warning whatsoever and no explanation other than what we've seen.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I really wonder how the person in question was allowed to purchase from the site without having either lied about her originating country or used ISP masking software.


Because Amazon allows it, technically if not in their terms. I live in France. I have accounts with Amazon.com, .co.uk, and .fr. I buy all my Kindle books from amazon.co.uk. My account there shows my address in France, I pay with a French credit card, and I buy whilst connected from a French IP address. Everything about the purchase screams "I'm in France", and yet Amazon.co.uk's systems allow this.

Their terms and conditions page doesn't say you can't do it either, it's only listed in that separate page I linked earlier, which I specifically searched for after this story broke. If those are the rules, then so be it. But Amazon have made it ridiculously easy to break their own rules. Easy to the point you wouldn't know you were doing it - I certainly didn't.



BenJ said:


> That would be the under age kids fault for buying the alcohol in the first place.


Wow, if that's how the law works in the US then I'm amazed. It's the polar opposite to here in Europe where it's the shop owner who would be prosecuted.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Atunah said:


> The reason people go to these lengths violating their terms of service is because they want to legally purchase whatever books they want, no matter where they are located. I mean they could just go to the dark nets, but they don't. They spend their money. But they are still violating the terms. So they have to live with the consequences.


This comment is Joseph Heller approved. 

B.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Curiouser and curiouser cried Alice...someone on the Guardian just posted what they claim is a chat transcript with Amazon.com customer services where they were told this whole story is false:

https://p.6core.net/p/hx5voap6k84ndcrn


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## BenJ (Sep 19, 2012)

HarryDayle said:


> Wow, if that's how the law works in the US then I'm amazed. It's the polar opposite to here in Europe where it's the shop owner who would be prosecuted.


Both would be guilty of breaking the law. The guy selling to under aged kids, and the under age kids who knowingly broke the law by buying alcohol.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Zelah Meyer said:


> Yes, Amazon take customer care, customer relations, and public relations very seriously. This would just be so out of character for the company. It sounds from various recent complaints, as if they have recently introduced some kind of automated IP checking software that is making links where none exist (probably due to roving IPs, possibly even confused by people accessing the server from another country and traveling through the same internet route as other people?) This could be another casualty of that, in which case, I think we'll soon see some apologies from Amazon, because I think it must be starting to become clear to them by now that their system is throwing up a lot of false positives.


This was my first thought as well. There's been other reports of people's reviews getting deleted because they were somehow deemed fake (though they weren't) - I suspect this is the same thing taken further and that it has something to do with IP addresses which would not be a 100% accurate system.

It's completely unacceptable for Amazon to essentially be sticking their fingers in their ears and going "Lalalalala, I can't heeeear you, our system is perfect and we won't explain it or listen to any concerns about it". I certainly hope we see a quick realization and change as you suggest but for them to not foresee the issues in such a system does not exactly make me have much faith in that. How stupid can they be to allow such a monstrous error to occur to begin? And then to ignore any possibility that they might be wrong and take a closer look? Shocking.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Here is a more detailed description of the events leading up to the ban as reported by Simon Phipps. Remember, all of these events are alleged, and Amazon has neither confirmed nor denied this recounting. I'm only posting this here so everyone is aware of the allegations driving the story:

_Linn lives in Norway, where Amazon does not operate (Amazon.no redirects to the Amazon Europe page). She bought a Kindle in the UK, liked it and read a number of books on it. She then gave that Kindle to her mother, and bought a used Kindle on a Danish classifieds site to which she transferred her account. She has been happily reading on it for some time, purchasing her books with a Norwegian address and credit card. She told me she'd read 30 or 40 books on it.

Sadly, the device developed a fault (actually a second time, it was also replaced in 2011 for the same reason) and started to display black lines on the screen (something I've heard from other friends as it happens). She called Amazon customer service, and they agreed to replace it if she returned it, although they insisted on shipping the replacement to a UK address rather to her in Norway.

Then the e-mails that her friend Martin re-posted arrived..._

http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/10/rights-you-have-no-right-to-your-ebooks/index.htm

B.


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## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm confused how this could even happen in the first place. When I'm home in the Netherlands and I tried checking the UK kindle website to show someone a kindle I got an error and they linked me to the .com website. I can't even BUY a kindle from the Netherlands even though I'm perfectly allowed to when the shipping address is in the UK.
I can of course buy books when I'm at home, that is no problem, I can't buy a device though.

In the Netherlands you need to have a .com account to buy a kindle and I think you might be able to connect that device to a different store but I'm not sure you're actually allowed to buy from that store unless it's your own countries store.


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## monkeygirl351 (Mar 5, 2010)

This is just all very crazy and something needs to be done better. I think geographical restrictions are nonsense, and just make people go pirate a book they really want especially in a series. I for one was in the middle of a series and found the next book wasn't available to me here but I couldn't buy it in the UK either. Since I get rid of drm on all my books as I purchase them,(and this is exactly how I'd prevent amazon from holding my legitimately purchased library hostage) I searched for the ebook in other stores. I found it as an epub in a european store that sells to the US and yes it is a legitimate store even though they don't seem to pay attention to geo restrictions. Anyways, I bought the book and converted it to read on my kindle. In that way, I still paid for it and hopefully the author gets his money. I heavily researched that store before making the purchase and apparently they are a brick and mortar store as well. The sad thing is as I was searching for the book legitimately online, I did come across several pirated versions that would have been less hassle to get and I am willing to bet that others would have used rather than finding the paid for version. 
DRM and geo restrictions don't stop anything. If someone is going to pirate, then that is what they are going to do. It does hurt the people that pay for their books and expect them to be there when they want them. I never trust any large corporation to have my best interests in mind. Therefore every book that I purchase from amazon goes through my calibre plugins before even getting on my kindle. I never turn on the wifi on my kindle either. I pay too much money for my books for Amazon to deem that I can no longer access them. This just makes me even more glad that I have three back ups of my calibre library and that doesn't include my cloud storage on amazon. I consider that just a bonus. I guess I'm paranoid, but sometimes a little paranoia is good.


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## kb7uen Gene (Mar 13, 2009)

Here's another example of why not having true ownership of our content is hurting us as consumers. Even if you back it up, any digital medium we use today isn't going to survive over long periods of time. I know there must be other ways to do this using analog mediums, but I'm not sure what they might be. I'm thinking of Digitally storing a book in a physical way as a barcode of QR code, but then that requires a database of some sort so the Kindle will know what that symbol means. Wouldn't be the ultimate irony, storing our digital ebooks in paper books. In the long term, I think the only medium which will solve this problem is probably going to be some kind of Chrystal or maybe even in the blood of a person in the same way we have seen it in Star Trek. It adds new meaning to the term: "Being well read!" - Gene

http://www.cnet.com.au/amazon-wipes-customers-kindle-closes-account-339342135.htm


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## Pushka (Oct 30, 2009)

The story has developed a little further though.  Seems like there were broken kindles involved.  And they do have access to their library.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Gene,

I'm going to merge this with the existing thread on this topic, thanks for understanding.

Betsy


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## kb7uen Gene (Mar 13, 2009)

Sorry Betty, I didn't see the existing thread before creating my own. - Gene

Two thoughts come to mind for me, which are giant pet peeves of mine in fact, in regards to how Amazon handle this issue is that with the wide spread use of computers and the abuse of policies and procedures from companies and corporations, humans as a species seem to be de-evolving mentally.  We as a species seem to have lost the capacity to think for ourselves, and the sad part of all this is, that we are really smarter than that.  The other possibility could be and probably is, that we as a species have become way too comfortable and extremely lazy.  I know this isn't the case with everyone, but I have seen it way too often for it to be a fluke of nature.

It seems the only way to get most people in business to do the right thing these days is to embarrass or shame them first before they will act in some capacity or another.  Which means empathy, compassion, and ethical behavior, have also disappeared from the human condition, which is really sad. - Gene


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## Cloysterpete (Aug 21, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> , thanks for understanding.
> 
> Betsy


Where have I heard this before?, do you work for Amazon


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

I think this case sets a very worrying precedent for any Kindle user.

As I read up on it, there are two possible scenarios that happened here:

One is that did the banned user in question, continue to purchase books from Amazon.co.uk after move to Norway. Apparently this is not the case, though, as it was said the user used Amazon.com - which is the international Kindle store that supports multiple countries, including Norway. As long as the user account was marked to be Norway in Country Settings, and Kindle books were purchased from Amazon.com, this should be perfectly in line with Amazon policies. If the store was different or the country settings had not been updated to Norway, then it may have been a breech of terms.

Second one is that apparently the user in question had a second-hand Kindle (the first one was left home in the UK). The banning notice from Amazon (see the Consumerist link) suggests that the user didn't do anything wrong directly, but were associated with an account that had done something unspecified wrong. If the new owner of the second-hand Kindle were punished for something that the original owner of that Kindle did, that would certainly be very worrying for any Kindle owner as a very loose association might result in deletion of entire Kindle collection and all Kindles - no explanation given.

I think the biggest culprit, on Amazon's part, is the communication. Certainly there should be some sort of warning, chance of correction and appeals process for bans of all kinds. The idea that Amazon can just shut you out for life like that, no explanation given, should be very worrying to any Kindle user. Certainly this a potential issue with all centralized content stores and DRM, of course.


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## BenJ (Sep 19, 2012)

kb7uen Gene said:


> Sorry Betty, I didn't see the existing thread before creating my own. - Gene
> 
> Two thoughts come to mind for me, which are giant pet peeves of mine in fact, in regards to how Amazon handle this issue is that with the wide spread use of computers and the abuse of policies and procedures from companies and corporations, humans as a species seem to be de-evolving mentally. We as a species seem to have lost the capacity to think for ourselves, and the sad part of all this is, that we are really smarter than that. The other possibility could be and probably is, that we as a species have become way too comfortable and extremely lazy. I know this isn't the case with everyone, but I have seen it way too often for it to be a fluke of nature.
> 
> It seems the only way to get most people in business to do the right thing these days is to embarrass or shame them first before they will act in some capacity or another. Which means empathy, compassion, and ethical behavior, have also disappeared from the human condition, which is really sad. - Gene


Yeah cause individual people never try to abuse policies, and always act ethically ::rolls eyes::


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

BenJ said:


> Yeah cause individual people never try to abuse policies, and always act ethically ::rolls eyes::


It is certainly possible that they do - and it is possible they did in this case. However, there is a reason in public life we have laws that meter out suitable punishment and appeals process, to protect the individual from excessive or wrongful results. I think the private sector (especially with things like DRM) would be wise to follow suit - or it may be forced on them through lawmaking eventually.

Consider this: If the person lived in the UK, moved to Norway and didn't change their country settings... It could happen to anyone living in one country and then moving (or being stationed) to another. What if you don't know how to do it? You forget? What would be a reasonable response from Amazon? Wouldn't it be a warning first? Forcing new settings on the user? At worst, stopping access to books bought while living in the foreign country? Those sound like a reasonable response. Do you think a reasonable response would be, no explanation given, deletion of all content ever bought - even such that was bought when the person was living in the right country? How would some members on this forum with thousands of books and years of use behind them, feel like if that happened to them after moving to another country? It simply does not sound like a reasonable response, if the alleged details are true. Worse still, if the person in question is being punished for something done by the previous owner of their second-hand Kindle, the response would be even more unreasonable.

The problem here, really, isn't Amazon reacting if the user was in breech of terms. (It is unclear if they were, but assume they were.) The problem is the extent at which they acted and the lack of communication and recourse offered.


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## BenJ (Sep 19, 2012)

The only thing we have to show they did or didnt communicate is the person who had their books removed word. If they were willing to try and game the system, Im more than willing to believe that they would lie about the circumstances, and amazon's communication with them. Once a person shows they cant be trusted with one thing (following the rules on where they are supposed to purchase the books from) they can not be trusted about anything.


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## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

BenJ said:


> The only thing we have to show they did or didnt communicate is the person who had their books removed word. If they were willing to try and game the system, Im more than willing to believe that they would lie about the circumstances, and amazon's communication with them. Once a person shows they cant be trusted with one thing (following the rules on where they are supposed to purchase the books from) they can not be trusted about anything.


Partly this and partly something else:

Who says that Amazon didn't make an honest mistake? 
- They might had to block a name that looked like it and someone misspelled it
- They accidentally clicked a wrong button and didn't realise they had until the email came in and at that point they had to go over Amazon blacklist policy because they were blacklisted and had to go through a couple of steps to unblacklist it again
- Who says that it wasn't a group of reviewers who had it out for her because she disliked a book they loved (which is something I'm not keen on ruling out)

I'm sorry but with the book lending incident (from begin summer) still fresh in my mind, I'm not that keen to actually call Amazon a bad company. Plus Amazon deals with millions and millions of accounts and probably thousands and thousands of messages to support each day, a human error can be made easily.

The posts made on this problem seem so full of things that do not add up, plus most of them talk about the 1984 book incident which was a sloppy clean up from Amazon but it wasn't Amazon's fault or the removal of ebooks from publishers that didn't want to play by Amazon's rules. Those incidents aren't even closely related, they were both obvious breaking Amazon's rules and if you want to sell on Amazon you need to abide by their rules. Calling them evil because they enforce rules everyone knew they were signing up for seems wrong.


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## JamescCamp (Oct 18, 2012)

Regardless of how her account got shut down (broken Kindles, whatever), the part that kind of galls is the way they wouldn't explain anything to her when she asked why the account had been closed down. 

I know Amazon is probably trying to protect themselves from divulging too much if she really was a 'criminal', but they could at least have made an effort to communicate with her in case she really was just a confused customer, which it's looking like she is.


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## BenJ (Sep 19, 2012)

JamescCamp said:


> Regardless of how her account got shut down (broken Kindles, whatever), the part that kind of galls is the way they wouldn't explain anything to her when she asked why the account had been closed down.
> 
> I know Amazon is probably trying to protect themselves from divulging too much if she really was a 'criminal', but they could at least have made an effort to communicate with her in case she really was just a confused customer, which it's looking like she is.


Again, you dont know that they didnt explain, We only have her word for it, and shes already proven she cant be trusted.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

JamescCamp said:


> Regardless of how her account got shut down (broken Kindles, whatever), the part that kind of galls is the way they wouldn't explain anything to her when she asked why the account had been closed down.


We don't really know they didn't explain it to her. We have supposed copies of emails sent by somebody at Amazon.uk. It's entirely possible, even _probable_ that these are not the ONLY communications that she had and also possible that they are not presented exactly as they actually were sent.

Bottom line: we only have PART of the picture. . . . so it's not really fair to decide that it's all Amazon's fault. Almost certainly they could have handled it better -- humans do make mistakes! But, again, we don't know what might be missing or what else they might have said to her about the whole thing as the information is all coming from her: of course she will paint it in the light most favorable to her.  But it also does seem that she was not entirely above board in her dealings with them.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> We don't really know they didn't explain it to her. We have supposed copies of emails sent by somebody at Amazon.uk. It's entirely possible, even _probable_ that these are not the ONLY communications that she had and also possible that they are not presented exactly as they actually were sent.
> 
> Bottom line: we only have PART of the picture. . . . so it's not really fair to decide that it's all Amazon's fault. Almost certainly they could have handled it better -- humans do make mistakes! But, again, we don't know what might be missing or what else they might have said to her about the whole thing as the information is all coming from her: of course she will paint it in the light most favorable to her.  But it also does seem that she was not entirely above board in her dealings with them.


It's not even coming from "her," that is, Linn. It's coming from Martin who is reporting what his friend Linn told him, allegedly. I agree with you, Ann, I think there are many parts of this story that are not being shared and it's impossible to draw any conclusions.

L


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## cls (Aug 18, 2010)

I saw posted on another site that her account was restored


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## kb7uen Gene (Mar 13, 2009)

Only because the story got amazon more bad attention than they were willing to accept without doing something.  Another words, the people on the internet shamed and embarrassed amazon enough to reverse the problem.  If left to their own devices, they would have never done it on their own.  Regardless of what triggered amazon to do what they did, right or wrong, the account holder deserved an explanation on why the account was shut down, and for them not to tell this person is completely wrong. - Gene


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## sparklemotion (Jan 13, 2011)

kb7uen Gene said:


> the account holder deserved an explanation on why the account was shut down, and for them not to tell this person is completely wrong. - Gene


I agree!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

To tell the truth, the first thing I did when I saw this story was to check with Snopes, because it read too much like every urban legend email I've ever received.

As far as I can tell, all we know about the original situation is what was posted by a third party in a blog post.  I haven't been keeping up with it across the Internet, but has the person to whom it allegedly happened actually made a first person account anywhere?

I can't get excited about one anecdotal account where we know very little.  This is not the same thing as having 1984 removed from multiple Kindles.
*shrug*

In general, though, I do think, from multiple reports I've heard in other circumstances, that Amazon needs a better procedure when they block people's accounts.   Edited to add, they definitely need a defined appeal process.


Betsy


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## JamescCamp (Oct 18, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> We don't really know they didn't explain it to her. We have supposed copies of emails sent by somebody at Amazon.uk. It's entirely possible, even _probable_ that these are not the ONLY communications that she had and also possible that they are not presented exactly as they actually were sent.
> 
> Bottom line: we only have PART of the picture. . . . so it's not really fair to decide that it's all Amazon's fault. Almost certainly they could have handled it better -- humans do make mistakes! But, again, we don't know what might be missing or what else they might have said to her about the whole thing as the information is all coming from her: of course she will paint it in the light most favorable to her.  But it also does seem that she was not entirely above board in her dealings with them.


Okay, fair enough. But that would mean the whole thing really was a fabrication or an attempted 'screw job' on Amazon.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Updates from Simon Phipps:

_Update @ 23:55 - Linn just contacted me to say her account has been mysteriously re-activated and she's busily downloading her books. Hopefully Amazon will have more news for us all soon. Even positive arbitrary actions disclose how much Kindle customers read only with the grace of Amazon, of course...

Update @ 00:30 - Amazon PR just wrote to say: "We would like to clarify our policy on this topic. Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their library. If any customer has trouble accessing their content, he or she should contact customer service for help. Thank you for your interest in Kindle."_

http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/10/rights-you-have-no-right-to-your-ebooks/index.htm

It is good to see that Amazon has backtracked, but they need to release a public statement explaining how and why the content lockout occurred. This story is getting legs in Europe right as they are trying to aggressively market the Kindle and Fire for this year's holiday season. As Mikko Hypponen ‏said to Neil Gaiman on Twitter: "My guess is that @Amazon's response to this Kindle crisis will become a textbook example of PR handling. Good or bad."

B.


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## LauraB (Nov 23, 2008)

I had Amazon close my account and lock me out a year or two ago. I posted about it on the board somewhere. When it happened I just woke up with a new email that said my account had been closed and I had lost all access to Amazon or kindle library. They said it was for multiple accounts. They didn't wipe my kindle though. 

I called and told them I didn't have multiple accounts and asked them to escalate it because if there was another account it was fraud- or identity theft, or something. They keep it closed until they found the problem, someone had gotten my credit card number and set an account up. Amazon shut down theirs. We turned in a report of fraud, got a new card, password ect. And I was back up. I did appreciate them doing it because it could have caused a huge hassle. But if I hadn't called my account would have stayed frozen and who knows what would have happened to the other one. But at least Amazon's action triggered me to call. And I am grateful.


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## Evilcyber (May 17, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> In general, though, I do think, from multiple reports I've heard in other circumstances, that Amazon needs a better procedure when they block people's accounts. Edited to add, they definitely need a defined appeal process.


The problem is not the procedure, as they can choose to do or not do business with anyone they want to. The problem is that you are effectively locked out of your content - stuff you paid for.

Ask yourself if you'd be happy about Amazon sending a SWAT team to tear down your door and reclaim all paperbacks you bought through them.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Evilcyber said:


> The problem is not the procedure, as they can choose to do or not do business with anyone they want to. The problem is that you are effectively locked out of your content - stuff you paid for.
> 
> Ask yourself if you'd be happy about Amazon sending a SWAT team to tear down your door and reclaim all paperbacks you bought through them.


Well, I'd still argue their procedure was flawed.  Your analogy is a little overly dramatic , but my purchasing of physical books differs from the license I purchase from Amazon and that I agree to with every ebook purchase, which effectively says it's their content licensed to me. I'm glad to hear that it's been reported that she got her content back. I still hope that Amazon puts in place a better procedure for investigating these things and for appealing their decisions. They're a customer-oriented business, and in general, their customer service is exemplary. I'd like to see it be so across the board.

Betsy


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

I agree with Betsy, well said.


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## Seleya (Feb 25, 2011)

FearIndex said:


> Consider this: If the person lived in the UK, moved to Norway and didn't change their country settings... It could happen to anyone living in one country and then moving (or being stationed) to another. What if you don't know how to do it? You forget? What would be a reasonable response from Amazon? Wouldn't it be a warning first? Forcing new settings on the user? At worst, stopping access to books bought while living in the foreign country?


But...Amazon does tell you, every single time.

I have a .com, .fr, .uk and (most recently) a .it account (my country). Every time I look at e-books on an Amazon site different from Amazon.it I get the book page (sometimes with no price showing) and _on the same page _ I get a sidebar saying :

_Kindle titles are available for IT customers on Amazon.it.
Continue shopping on the Kindle Store at Amazon.it._

And, just below:

_Have you moved recently?
You may change your country on the Manage Your Kindle page. _

There is no way for me to buy an e-book from the wrong shop without knowing it, and there _is_ info on changing your country if you move.


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

Seleya said:


> But...Amazon does tell you, every single time.
> 
> I have a .com, .fr, .uk and (most recently) a .it account (my country). Every time I look at e-books on an Amazon site different from Amazon.it I get the book page (sometimes with no price showing) and _on the same page _ I get a sidebar saying :
> 
> ...


Perhaps that information would be visible enough. Thank you for adding that. Is it also as visible when buying from a Kindle directly? I'm not quite convinved all people would pay enough attention, though - and while it is reasonable some reprecussions would result from non-compliance, a no-warning, permanent deletion of your account and Kindle content does not seem like reasonable. (Luckily in this case, Amazon seems to have backtracked at least on that content access issue.) Most consumers are completely ignorant of any such details, I'd wager. And I'm not completely convinced the expectation for them to be anything else is reasonable. Think of all the computer illiterate people etc.

A better approach perhaps, if and when Amazon needs to enforce regional licensing terms: First a written warning or two (emails, not just on the web) and then lock-out from content bought against terms of service perhaps, with an appeals process in tow (real one, not just some CS boilerplate). Perhaps an offer to allow the user to pay some fee to license content for their new region, if available. That would seem far more reasonable. It is just buying access to books we are discussing, not filing taxes after all... Is it reasonable to expect all this licensing knowhow and consideration from regular folks just buying books, renting movies or whatnot? I'd say probably not. So there needs to be safeguards to make sure normal people, doing normal customer things are not unduly hurt or burdened.

In the end, it is also good business.


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## Seleya (Feb 25, 2011)

When I buy from my Kindle it goes on its own to the Italian shop, I would have to use the web browser to go to a different one. I don't know how it works now from people in Europe who don't have a national shop, but before Amazon.it opened, the default for my K3 was Amazon.com.


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

Seleya said:


> When I buy from my Kindle it goes on its own to the Italian shop, I would have to use the web browser to go to a different one. I don't know how it works now from people in Europe who don't have a national shop, but before Amazon.it opened, the default for my K3 was Amazon.com.


Of course, this is how it works when things are nominal. I was just thinking out loud, what would happen if a person moves from one country to another (many times retaining their old address, be it because parents live there or it is left empty/rented for the duration), but doesn't think to change some country switch somewhere - and continues to shop at the old store. I'm pretty sure the average person would not think of that is illegal or immoral, they probably wouldn't think of it at all, they are buying content just like before. What if someone moves around a lot, travels a lot and so forth.

I'm not against Amazon enforcing regional licenses, because by law they are probably required to - their contracts with publishers etc. likely dictate these things. But they should strive to make sure users are given plenty of chance to correct things, because I doubt these are really clear to the average person and the world is increasingly global. Some of the elderly people I know are avid readers and can use tablets and Kindles, but I'm pretty sure they would never think of swapping some country setting on some device. I doubt they'd know such a setting even exists. Yet it is not rare that such people still move around or live, say winter or most of the year, in another country (in Europe at least this seems fairly common).


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

FearIndex said:


> Of course, this is how it works when things are nominal. I was just thinking out loud, what would happen if a person moves from one country to another (many times retaining their old address, be it because parents live there or it is left empty/rented for the duration), but doesn't think to change some country switch somewhere - and continues to shop at the old store. I'm pretty sure the average person would not think of that is illegal or immoral, they probably wouldn't think of it at all, they are buying content just like before. What if someone moves around a lot, travels a lot and so forth.
> 
> I'm not against Amazon enforcing regional licenses, because by law they are probably required to - their contracts with publishers etc. likely dictate these things. But they should strive to make sure users are given plenty of chance to correct things, because I doubt these are really clear to the average person and the world is increasingly global. Some of the elderly people I know are avid readers and can use tablets and Kindles, but I'm pretty sure they would never think of swapping some country setting on some device. I doubt they'd know such a setting even exists. Yet it is not rare that such people still move around or live, say winter or most of the year, in another country (in Europe at least this seems fairly common).


Which is why, as Betsy said, Amazon possibly need some better protocols. No doubt they're being developed -- Amazon is really brand new in Europe. At least as far as Kindling goes. . . .Some foreign kindle stores haven't even been open for a year yet.

But, again, in this case, it seems like the person in question -- and I recognize that this is all second or third hand reporting and believe there is a LOT left out -- knew that she was doing something to circumvent the rules and then whined when she got caught. Could Amazon have handled it better? Possibly. Probably, even -- they apparently failed to consider that perfectly reasonable actions on their part could be taken out of context and blown up as something hugely nefarious, and that, really, should not have been a big surprise.


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