# Publishers Put Further Restrictions on Library Ebook Lending



## chipotle (Jan 1, 2010)

Publishing Industry Forces Overdrive and other Ebook Vendors to Take a Giant Step Back - http://librarianbyday.net/2011/02/25/publishing-industry-forces-overdrive-and-other-library-ebook-vendors-to-take-a-giant-step-back/

HarperCollins Put 26 Loan Cap on Ebook Circulations
http://www.libraryjournal.com/lj/home/889452-264/harpercollins_caps_loans_on_ebook.html.csp

Wow! And here I thought I'd seen everything with the Agency Model. I'm surprised HarperCollins didn't just refuse to have their ebooks available at libraries like Macmillan and Simon & Schuster.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

They have lost their mind. 

Oh well, in my opinion all this disrespect they are showing ebooks and ebook readers is just going to drive more and more people towards the darknet.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2011)

I understand the logic behind this move, but I think it could have been thought out better.  One of the major income streams for big publishers is libraries.  Libraries tend to buy multiple copies of a book, and replace them regularly when they wear.  Now they have an inventory that effectively never needs replacing, which means they don't need to buy multiple copies.  While this would have no impact on megasellers, it could kill the mid list and literary books that generally have low sales but high literary merit (particularly things like the personal essay and poetry which are notoriously low selling on the open market but a huge sell to libraries).  

I think a better plan would be a subscription fee per title.  Instead of charging a library $20 for a digital book they can only lend 26 times, charge an annual subscription fee of $5 or $10 a year.  Then each year, the library can chose to renew those ebooks that have been really popular, and cancel those that aren't filling the needs of their community.  This would still be cheaper for the libraries in the long run because they would still be paying less than the replacement costs of a print book, and it would create a near endless revenue stream for publishers.  Moreover, libraries could then offer to let patrons "sponsor" an ebook.  People who might not otherwise financially support their local libraries won't think twice about donating $5 to keep their favorite author's book in circulation.


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## chipotle (Jan 1, 2010)

I like the sponsoring an ebook idea!

I wonder if we are headed to what the publishers forced libraries to do in the UK. Readers now have to physically show up at the library to download an ebook:
http://ebooknews.co.uk/85/uk-library-ebook-lending-restrictions

Talk about taking away most of the convenience of using an ebook! I'd read a lot less if I had to show up to the library every time I wanted to download an ebook (and I can only download 4 at a time) plus it takes away much of the benefits of ebooks for the elderly and disabled.

I also think with the 26 download limit it might reduce the number of readers trying out a new author. If I know my library can only loan out an ebook 26 times I'm less likely to grab a book I'm not sure I'm going to like. I don't want to take away the ability to read that book from another reader.

It will be interesting to see if Macmillan and Simon and Schuster now start allowing library lending of their ebooks with the new restrictions. And I assume this means the end of the Free Library of Philadelphia offering out-of-state residents access to their ebook collection.


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## Alexis-Shore (Feb 20, 2011)

Comparing this to library lending is a little bit of a false equivalence, at least here in the UK.

Authors are entitled to a lending fee when they're books are borrowed from libraries.

That said, if we didn't share things as friends, nothing would ever become popular, so restricting loans is a daft idea.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

I agree, it really should be a yearly or even monthly subscription.  Some of this will come in time--a netflix type model.  If public libraries don't do it, a private library will spring up and do it.  I've read suggestions that Amazon try something like a subscription model so it will come--and probably from more than one direction.

A small fee per checkout (as is done in the UK) would also work.  The fee could be something like 10 to 25 cents per book.  The publisher and authors do have to make money, but they have to be smarter about it than we've seen from most of the publishers thus far.


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## shalym (Sep 1, 2010)

Hmmm...There's another part to this story, too.



> In addition, our publishing partners have expressed concerns regarding the card issuance policies and qualification of patrons who have access to OverDrive supplied digital content. Addressing these concerns will require OverDrive and our library partners to cooperate to honor geographic and territorial rights for digital book lending, as well as to *review and audit policies regarding an eBook borrower's relationship to the library (i.e. customer lives, works, attends school in service area, etc.)*.


As someone else said, this could very well be the end of the Free Library of Philadelphia. If your local library doesn't offer an e-book that you want, you may be SOL.

Shari


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## Book_Worm (Feb 25, 2011)

Well, I was having a hard time deciding between the Kindle and the Nook, primarily because of the library support of the Kindle, but now the Kindle is the solid choice (I liked everything else about it).

I live in a major library system, so getting many books available was never the issue.  But, if they only allow a book to be used 26 times, there is no way I'll get most of the books I want to read.  For many books, the library has 5 copies, but there are over 100 people in que for each book.  By the time the que gets to me, the book will be gone (unless the library is allowed to "renew" a book).

It's almost as if the publishers are ASKING us to pirate their material.  Don't get me wrong, I am all for paying for someone else's work, and I understand there are a lot of back-office expenses in publishing a book, but that doesn't justify an e-book being MORE expensive than you can get a mass market paperback.  A dollar or two less only seems fair, since I can't resell the book, I can't loan it or give it to others once I'm done reading it (beyond the 1 time 21-day period), and I have no physical copy of the book.

After reading these forums almost obsessively for the last week or two, one thing is clear.  I'll be supporting the smaller, and independent, authors much more than I do now.  At least most of the ones here have more reasonable prices.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

http://www.libraryjournal.com/lj/home/889452-264/harpercollins_caps_loans_on_ebook.html.csp


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

Julie, the library subscription plan sounds like a really good idea. I can understand why publishers want some recurring income on a title that could be lent hundreds of times and never needs to be replaced. But I especially like the "sponsor this e-book and keep it available at this library for a year" idea. I think a lot of patrons would go for that. Heck, I think many of us _authors_ would go for that at our local libraries to make our own books available!


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## PG4003 (Patricia) (Jan 30, 2010)

I think the 26 times feature is ridiculous.  Most of the good books have more people than that on the wait list.  Wonder how this will affect people like me who pay the $15 per year to get books from the Philadelphia library?


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## Neekeebee (Jan 10, 2009)

Hmmm...are they doing this with OverDrive's audio stuff too?  After all, physical copies of CDs and books on tape wear out and get lost too.

I think this is a terrible (but not surprising) development given the financial troubles public libraries are already having.  I imagine ebook collections help libraries better estimate costs because they don't get lost and don't need to be pulled from one branch to another.

As for people checking out books, it could go one of two ways.  Readers might be less likely to "try" a new author, so as not to take the opportunity away from someone who really wants the book; others might decide to check out everything before the limit is reached.

And publishers forcing libraries to determine what kind of relationship a user has with that region?  That's pretty scary.

N


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## Book_Worm (Feb 25, 2011)

PG4003 (Patricia) said:


> I think the 26 times feature is ridiculous. Most of the good books have more people than that on the wait list. Wonder how this will affect people like me who pay the $15 per year to get books from the Philadelphia library?


If I read the article right, unless you are IN Philadelphia, your access is gone.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

Book_Worm said:


> If I read the article right, unless you are IN Philadelphia, your access is gone.


Sadly, I think you might be right. It wasn't worded like that specifically, but I bet that is what it means:



> In addition, our publishing partners have expressed concerns regarding the card issuance policies and qualification of patrons who have access to OverDrive supplied digital content. Addressing these concerns will require OverDrive and our library partners to cooperate to honor geographic and territorial rights for digital book lending, as well as to review and audit policies regarding an eBook borrower's relationship to the library (i.e. customer lives, works, attends school in service area, etc.).


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## Sarah Woodbury (Jan 30, 2011)

Yup. Yet another example of the publishing industry backing into the future (and digging in their heels as they do it!).


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## Jeff Sherratt Novelist (Feb 9, 2011)

To use one of a word my grandchildren have taught me:

FAIL


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## mrscottishman (May 18, 2010)

Well, it doesn't affect my public domain books  . . . yet

No wonder we are getting a little paranoid around here.

Scott


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## KingAl (Feb 21, 2011)

Book_Worm said:


> If I read the article right, unless you are IN Philadelphia, your access is gone.


And it could get even worse. They could require you to physically go to the library to check out ebooks, like what is supposedly being done in the United Kingdom.


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## theraven (Dec 30, 2009)

I agree with Julie. I think it would be better if they came up with a subscription fee for libraries rather than the model they're forcing on the libraries now which comes across as 'combative' even though it makes sense. A physical book can only be checked out so many times before it needs to be replaced from usuage or being lost. But, the way they are going about this makes it seem like they consider the library an 'enemy'. Ebooks licenses would be a great selling point for smaller libraries who don't have the space to hold a large collection ... or the finances to devote to keeping books that aren't of interest to their patrons... and know they have the option not to renew a book that isn't circulating for them.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Book_Worm said:


> If I read the article right, unless you are IN Philadelphia, your access is gone.


Well, it's not gone yet - they say it "needs to be addressed". Especially in the case of the FLP, where people have actually paid for a card, they might not be able to shut them out until their year is up (but who knows?) Overdrive really ought to be advocating for their libraries.

And to get bent out of shape over the consortia - that's the only way a lot of smaller libraries can afford to offer Overdrive books at all is by banding with other libraries.

Once again it all smells of publishers hoping that eBooks will ultimately fail.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2011)

Jeff Sherratt said:


> To use one of a word my grandchildren have taught me:
> 
> FAIL


You even used all caps. Impressive.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

Book_Worm said:


> After reading these forums almost obsessively for the last week or two, one thing is clear. I'll be supporting the smaller, and independent, authors much more than I do now. At least most of the ones here have more reasonable prices.


I agree. One of the best things about ereaders is the indy authors. So many talented story tellers out there I never would have read without my Kindle.


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## chipotle (Jan 1, 2010)

Single ebook copies are only able to be lent so many times per year. So I don't see why publishers care who the libraries choose to lend to, whether it is a reader from next door or one in a rural area in another part of the state. I assume that libraries such as the Free Library of Philadelphia will fight this as they are making revenue from selling library cards to out-of-state residents.

I'm also surprised Overdrive didn't take up the cause of the libraries. From what I've read libraries pay more for ebooks than print books (they get discounts on print books they don't get on ebooks) and I can't imagine Overdrive really wants to "*review and audit policies regarding an eBook borrower's relationship to the library*." for the thousands of libraries in their system. It would be a lot simpler to just stop carrying HarperCollins ebooks. I assume most libraries will do that anyway because they don't have the extra manpower to check to see if an HC book is about to disappear because it has been checked out 26 times.


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

I think this is just sad. Without getting too preachy and all left-wing, this is just another example of how corporations (and the 'man'  ) treat the little guy.  Always assuming that someone is going to steal something and squeezing as much $ out of us as possible.

What is is about ebooks with DRM, restrictions on TTS, and legally purchased that scares publishers so badly?


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## Book_Worm (Feb 25, 2011)

Jesslyn said:


> I think this is just sad. Without getting too preachy and all left-wing, this is just another example of how corporations (and the 'man' ) treat the little guy. Always assuming that someone is going to steal something and squeezing as much $ out of us as possible.
> 
> What is is about ebooks with DRM, restrictions on TTS, and legally purchased that scares publishers so badly?


The only thing it accomplishes is screwing the honest person. Anyone who is technologically advanced enough will just find a non-legal way to get their stuff for free (and then nobody makes money). This is the same thing that killed the music industry (or is slowly killing the music industry). I wonder if the same will happen to the publishing industry.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Book_Worm said:


> The only thing it accomplishes is screwing the honest person. Anyone who is technologically advanced enough will just find a non-legal way to get their stuff for free (and then nobody makes money).


This.

The publishing companies are still trying to force everyone (libraries included) to adhere to an old outdated model.


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

chipotle said:


> It will be interesting to see if Macmillan and Simon and Schuster now start allowing library lending of their ebooks with the new restrictions.


Given that Macmillan's CEO Sargent said, "If there's a model where the publisher gets a piece of the action every time the book is borrowed, that's an interesting model" in regards to e-book lending, I highly doubt he's going to let some library lend his company's books for "free".

I have no idea where he and his peers think librarians are getting ebooks for circulation. Torrent sites, perhaps? *shaking head*


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

In reality (not that I have an anchor in this sinking boat) 26 checkouts is equal to about a 1 year subscription.  I talked to my librarians and they explained that a two-week checkout means two weeks.  So even if I 'return' a book, it can't be checked out for the two week period.  This means that 26 checkouts is just over a year's worth of checkouts.  If the price is reasonable for the license, that isn't a terrible period of time for checkouts.  What DOES stink is my library is one of those small ones--so to save costs they are in the program with a group of libraries.  That means that if the group gets ONE copy of "Maria's Favorite Author" and there is a waiting list, (and there always is) I may never get to that book.  The library may or may not decide to "lease" it again.  

As it stands now, the waiting list (especially at Philly) is very, very long.  So them fussing about the geo-restrictions is silly.  The Free Library of Philly does get more than one license of popular books but I've read that the waiting list is often more than a year.  

I'd rather pay as a patron so reasonable fee (like I do now for Interlibrary loan) to actually be able to check the book out  Forget waiting lists, forget expired licenses.  Let me check it out for $2.50 for two weeks and renew once if I need to.  (This is the same rules as current Interlibrary loan for my library.)  At least then I'd have access to the books in a timely manner.

Also just Food for Thought.  I don't see how the publishers have a legal leg to stand on in telling any library to restrict checkouts.  There are county and state laws that already restrict some places/state/patrons.  If that doesn't exist in some area (Philly again) too bad for the publishers.  They can refuse to lend books to Philly but that is just going to cut their own nose off.  You have to get the product to the readers at an affordable price.  You have to meet them in this endeavor, not come across as a complete ogre.

Even this press release could have been done such that patrons realized that 26 checkouts is a year subscription.  They could have put different ideas on the table.  IF they want to do lending, they could contract through overdrive and DO IT THEMSELVES and take profits any way they want to.  They could innovate instead of whining.


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## Randy Kadish (Feb 24, 2010)

IMHO, this new development shows that publishers are panicking about ebooks and are starting to see the writing on the wall. What they're not seeing, however, is that if they limit or even end library ebooks, they will probably put and end to epub books and will leave Amazon with a complete monopoly in ebooks. (The main reason not to buy a Kindle is to read epub books.)

I don't think publishers will like dealing with a monoply.

I'm surprised publishers are not, as far as I know, selling ebooks directly through their websites.

Randy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Randy Kadish said:


> I'm surprised publishers are not, as far as I know, selling ebooks directly through their websites.


Well, Random House does. . .sort of. . . .you can browse offerings through their web site and then they send you through Amazon, B&N or wherever to buy the appropriately formatted book.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Randy Kadish said:


> What they're not seeing, however, is that if they limit or even end library ebooks, they will probably put and end to epub books and will leave Amazon with a complete monopoly in ebooks. (The main reason not to buy a Kindle is to read epub books.)
> 
> I don't think publishers will like dealing with a monoply.
> 
> ...


I had that same thought about ePubs - one of the big advantages touted for Sony/nook/Kobo is that they're compatible with library books. There will always be the market for epub's "open" format, but that market will drastically shrink with the limiting of library books.

HarperCollins did sell directly through their website until a few months ago.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2011)

Randy Kadish said:


> IMHO, this new development shows that publishers are panicking about ebooks and are starting to see the writing on the wall. What they're not seeing, however, is that if they
> I'm surprised publishers are not, as far as I know, selling ebooks directly through their websites.


Direct selling is a huge accounting nightmare, which is why most publishers don't do it. Most indies don't really worry about it, but if you sell a book in a state that collects sales tax, you are suppose to collect sales tax. If you sell a book to someone overseas, you are suppose to collect taxes and fees on that. Retailers are set up with the infrastructure to process taxes in 50 different states and keep up with the laws in a hundred different countries. It is easier to bulk sell to wholesalers and large retailers, even if you make less per book, than to have to set up the massive infrastructure needed to do end-consumer sales.

THIS is why Amazon has such an advantage right now. They already have the infrastructure in place. And most of the "publishing" word is done by the authors. They can juggle being both book seller and book producer because they don't have the actual burdens of a publisher.


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## chipotle (Jan 1, 2010)

> "That is a very thorny problem", said Sargent. In the past, getting a book from libraries has had a tremendous amount of friction. You have to go to the library, maybe the book has been checked out and you have to come back another time. If it's a popular book, maybe it gets lent ten times, there's a lot of wear and tear, and the library will then put in a reorder. With ebooks, you sit on your couch in your living room and go to the library website, see if the library has it, maybe you check libraries in three other states. You get the book, read it, return it and get another, all without paying a thing. "It's like Netflix, but you don't pay for it. How is that a good model for us?"
> 
> "If there's a model where the publisher gets a piece of the action every time the book is borrowed, that's an interesting model."


Here's the full quote about why Macmillan doesn't allow ebooks in libraries. Ignoring the fact that their CEO doesn't understand we do "pay a thing" in taxes to fund libraries, he also doesn't understand how libraries work. If a big library is getting in a brand new best seller (James Patterson, Nora Roberts), they will occasionally temporarily lease extra print copies from book leasing companies such as McNaughton so the copies they do permanently buy last longer. Those bestsellers are also probably the only books they reorder. At my library if a print book self-destructs they often just don't reorder. They regularly weed out books that aren't being checked out and they re-sell them at library book sales to make profits. Also I doubt many libraries ever replace a book after only ten uses - our library has books from the 1950's. So to say an ebook which libraries can't temporarily lease and can't re-sell and costs them more than a print book should be treated the same as a print book is absolutely ridiculous.


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## Neekeebee (Jan 10, 2009)

From this argument, it sounds like if the publishers had their way, they would hire people to go to the libraries, check out and "lose" books that have been checked out more than 10 times.  Anybody remember the days when borrowers had to write their names on a card inserted in a pocket in the back of the book?  A lot of them had more than 10 names...even the kids' books, and I suspect kids cause more wear and tear.

I wonder if the publishers would be willing to give money back to libraries for returning books that have been checked out way fewer than 26 times.

I am tempted to email my library and ask them not to buy any ebooks that have this type of limit.  I don't like wondering if the book will still be there when I get around to wanting to read it, or if I'll ever get off the waitlist.  They can save their limited funds for books without such limitations.

N


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

MariaESchneider said:


> I talked to my librarians and they explained that a two-week checkout means two weeks.


Don't believe everything your librarian tells you. I just tested this using mine and my wife's library cards. I checked out an ebook on her card, then logged in using my account and placed a hold on the same book. I then returned the ebook using the Adobe program and then re-logged in to my account, the hold was available shortly thereafter. The problem is most patrons don't return the ebook if they finish it before the checkout time ends.

Now to the other issue. Why does a publisher think this new policy is going to enrich them. A library has a set budget for the purchase of ebooks and weather they purchase a new ebook or repurchase one where the license has expired they will only be able to spend the dollars they have.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

davem2bits said:


> Don't believe everything your librarian tells you. I just tested this using mine and my wife's library cards. I checked out an ebook on her card, then logged in using my account and placed a hold on the same book. I then returned the ebook using the Adobe program and then re-logged in to my account, the hold was available shortly thereafter. The problem is most patrons don't return the ebook if they finish it before the checkout time ends.
> 
> Now to the other issue. Why does a publisher think this new policy is going to enrich them. A library has a set budget for the purchase of ebooks and weather they purchase a new ebook or repurchase one where the license has expired they will only be able to spend the dollars they have.


Oh, I believe my librarian. They tried it too. Apparently (from what they could discern) it matters whether the libraries are in a shared group and also what type of licensing they pay for and some sort of upfront fees for the type of program. Granted, they hadn't completely figured out all the rules, but they were working on it (the program just started here in Feb.) They were also disappointed in the fact that they couldn't ask for "additional copies." So, say a library had already put James Patterson's "Book 1" in the program. But my library believed there were LOTS of readers and wanted to have 5 copies (5 licenses). Well, they couldn't just add 4 more copies. The program didn't allow for it.

I was unsure if this was because of licensing restrictions or if it had to do with the way the libraries were "grouped" into one entity where multiple libraries were allowing checkout. Neither were they. The whole way of requesting books was pretty complicated as was the "return" and "move to the next patron."

They were hoping some of the "bugs" and "complexity" could be worked out, but on their initial tests, it wasn't the most friendly thing in the world.

All that babble said, 26 checkouts would still likely come close to a year because most patrons would keep it close to the two weeks. I think it would be preferable all around, however, if they came up with a subscription/license that allowed for at least a certain time period. Some of us do read fast and do return the books quickly.


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## KingAl (Feb 21, 2011)

ReneAZ said:


> Imagine being on a waiting list at the library for a couple of months, only to find out the ebook expired.


I shudder to think of the nastygrams the libraries will get from patrons who have this happen to them...


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

From what I understand there was always an expiration to the license.  I believe that the news in this is that it is now 26 checkouts if the book is a HarperC (Did I get that publisher right?  I start to get them all mixed up.)  

The libraries have the opportunity to renew or not.  That way, the library doesn't have to keep paying for books that *aren't* being checked out often (or at all.)

There are many different "license" levels available too.  I didn't go through them all with my librarian when we had the discussion, but not every library is on the same plan.


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

I used to describe publishing this way:  SLOW.  TECHNO-PHOBIC.  This was before Kindle.
This does not bode well for the future.  I was dismayed but enlightened last night to scroll through the top 100 selling books on Kindle.  Most were indie published.  Less than 10 were traditionally published and agency priced:  $12.99.
Disclosure-- while Atlantis and Chasing the Ghost which I've published are .99, Wild Ride is from St Martins and $12.99.
$12.99 makes no sense if you have a calculator.  
12.99 x .35= $4.55
9.99 x .7= $6.99
So why are traditional publishers holding on to $12.99?  To make you buy the hardcover.  But if you're an e-reader, you're not going to anyway.  But they think you are.  Because they think you will.  Because they think they can control things.

The #1 problem in publishing is that publishers still are trying to consign to retailers rather than sell to readers.  As more and more authors discover that, more and more authors will skip the middle man.  After the last couple of days watching my sales I've made the decision to bring out my Civil War trilogy, Duty-Honor-Country- myself on ebook on 12 April, the 150th Anniversary of the Civil War.  It's bowing to reality.  It's being fast and techno-savvy.


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## chipotle (Jan 1, 2010)

I'm not sure of the solution. Time limits make little sense and just end up costing the libraries more work hours trying to figure out if a book is about to expire. Some sort of a license or charge for every time a ebook gets checked out would be difficult for libraries who have a set book budget. How are they going to accurately predict how often a book gets checked out? Or instead are certain ebooks just going to disappear from the catalog when they reach the checkout limit?

Geographical restrictions are going to be impossible to police - there are 13,000 libraries in the Overdrive system (plus more using NetLibrary) and more libraries are going digital every day. Since I received my nook I have been reading a lot of forums on reading library ebooks and there are plenty of posters on those boards who also access ebook libraries elsewhere through library cards of friends and family in other states. Not all libraries get all their funding from state and local government either - there are other funding sources such as grants. It should be up to the individual libraries who they lend to and if they can make some money by charging out-of-state residents for access to their ebooks, more power to them.

As expensive as I think ebooks are I'm starting to think the answer is for publishers to charge libraries even more for ebooks but give them without restrictions or limitations. I read some libraries pay as much as $100 per audiobook on the Overdrive system because digital audiobooks never degrade or get stolen.

Also, if you want to help your library's ebook collection, check out LibraryBIN where you can purchase ebooks and audiobooks and the full amount over the wholesale payment to the publisher goes to your library of choice to help with their digital media ecollection. The next time I buy an ebook I'm going to use this system to try to help my library. 
http://www.librarybin.com


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

chipotle said:


> I'm not sure of the solution. Time limits make little sense and just end up costing the libraries more work hours trying to figure out if a book is about to expire. Some sort of a license or charge for every time a ebook gets checked out would be difficult for libraries who have a set book budget. How are they going to accurately predict how often a book gets checked out? Or instead are certain ebooks just going to disappear from the catalog when it reaches its limit?
> 
> Geographical restrictions are going to be impossible to police - there are 13,000 libraries in the Overdrive system (plus more using NetLibrary) and more libraries are going digital every day. Since I received my nook I have been reading a lot of forums on reading library ebooks and there are plenty of posters on those boards who also access ebook libraries elsewhere through library cards of friends and family in other states. Not all libraries get all their funding from state and local government either - there are other funding sources such as grants. It should be up to the individual libraries who they lend to and if they can make some money by charging out-of-state residents for access to their ebooks, more power to them.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on geographic restrictions, but libraries do all the other things NOW. They know exactly how many times a book has been checked out. The predict forward by looking at reviews, how good the last book by an author did and from that determine how many copies to order. Ebooks is not going to change any of that--UNLESS they are restricted by the fact that the "group" library will not allow them to get as many copies as they "want" or "need."

I'm quite certain that as a license expires, there is a "renewal" notice--libraries have an ongoing list of books that they can "renew" or not review or cycle with different books. (Some books have a more expensive license from what I gather.)

Ebooks is just another management task and it has its own software, much like the reports on current print books. We used to have to sort through the various reports. Any time a book had been checked out X times, it could be inspected or if it reached a certain stage, the librarian could decide we needed another copy (the wait list also provides stats.) With some books if the waitlist was 120 before the book was even released, the library would order another 3 copies (or whatever number). The same thing will be true with ebooks. As they look at stats, they'll have to decide how many licenses to manage and whatnot. Publishers that make it "difficult' will likely find their books "less attractive" and while libraries will still get them, they may find that libraries steer patrons expectations away from those books.

For example, our library almost *never* ordered paperback romances, even by popular authors. Why? Because we knew within a short time of release we'd get donations. Now if the book was hardcover, it was going to last longer, so the money might be spend on the popular author. But if it was a midlist or popular author only in paperback, the pros and cons were weighed.

The same decision making will take place with ebooks. Can we get it, how many people read it and is it cost-effective. Any of those three things can change the equation.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Bob_Mayer said:


> I used to describe publishing this way: SLOW. TECHNO-PHOBIC. This was before Kindle.
> This does not bode well for the future. I was dismayed but enlightened last night to scroll through the top 100 selling books on Kindle. Most were indie published. Less than 10 were traditionally published and agency priced: $12.99.
> Disclosure-- while Atlantis and Chasing the Ghost which I've published are .99, Wild Ride is from St Martins and $12.99.
> $12.99 makes no sense if you have a calculator.
> ...


Hi Bob,

I've seen you around here a couple of places now and I kept thinking, 'That isn't THE Bob Mayer...but now I see the Jennifer Cruise book in your sig line so I guess you are *THE* Bob Mayer.  Welcome to the wild world of Indie. Nice to see you here. I've only read one of your books, but it's going to be nice to get more of your work at Indie prices.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Ebook lending should not be any different from print lending.  As long as same rules are applied, I am all for that exposure to more readers.


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## Annalinde Matichei (Jan 23, 2011)

I seems to me that a physical book gets loaned out much more than 26 times. I have bought old ex-library books from the time when dates were rubber-stamped each time a book was loaned. Often there are two or more sheets pasted into the front, each one covered with stamped dates, and each date representing a loan.


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

MariaESchneider said:


> In reality (not that I have an anchor in this sinking boat) 26 checkouts is equal to about a 1 year subscription. I talked to my librarians and they explained that a two-week checkout means two weeks. So even if I 'return' a book, it can't be checked out for the two week period.


Once the book gets returned, it can be checked out by the next person in line immediately. (I've tested this)

So if someone reads fast (like me) and returns a book after 3 days, that just speeds up how quickly the library will need to repurchase it.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Annalinde Matichei said:


> I seems to me that a physical book gets loaned out much more than 26 times. I have bought old ex-library books from the time when dates were rubber-stamped each time a book was loaned. Often there are two or more sheets pasted into the front, each one covered with stamped dates, and each date representing a loan.


They are sometimes. But I've seen a brand new book--with one checkout--come back torn or wet or both. If a book is damaged (missing pages, muddy, written in to a huge extent) it gets discarded and replaced. That's the crux of the problem. With ebooks, a library doesn't have to buy a replacement, even for the most popular book. So the publishers are, in effect, trying to mimic this by having expiring licenses. The problem of course, is...how many checkouts is fair? Some books never get replaced. They might get checked out 100 times and then put into the pool where they are sold. The library might never reorder that book. Even in the case of a damaged or lost book, sometimes the library determines, it would rather use monies to buy something else (this happens a lot).

Library books, especially children's books, get damaged at a very high rate. Even if the library doesn't replace that exact book, they use the fines to buy other books. So how to the libraries and publishers meet in the middle to fairly compensate the authors/publishers and so on?

I think we're seeing the "Growing" pains from that and both sides are in a tug-of-war. And the reader just wants to read!


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Bob_Mayer said:


> After the last couple of days watching my sales I've made the decision to bring out my Civil War trilogy, Duty-Honor-Country- myself on ebook on 12 April, the 150th Anniversary of the Civil War. It's bowing to reality. It's being fast and techno-savvy.


It's a big helping bonus that you're already an established name - so it shouldn't take too long for your new series to get a lot of traction even if you're bringing it out yourself. Best of luck with it.

Paul.


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## Annalinde Matichei (Jan 23, 2011)

> Library books, especially children's books, get damaged at a very high rate. Even if the library doesn't replace that exact book, they use the fines to buy other books. So how to the libraries and publishers meet in the middle to fairly compensate the authors/publishers and so on?


What this seems to amount to is that the public is putting less into the system with ebooks, because it no longer pays fines for damaged books.

Maybe a small fee per loan would address that problem?


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Annalinde Matichei said:


> What this seems to amount to is that the public is putting less into the system with ebooks, because it no longer pays fines for damaged books.
> 
> Maybe a small fee per loan would address that problem?


Or libraries could charge a fee for "e-cards" - access to Overdrive eBooks (much like the $15/year Free Library of Philadelphia charges non-residents). This would be a great idea for helping support libraries build their number of books from Overdrive.

But it doesn't address the publishers' concerns, and they're the ones driving this particular train. I understand their position (to a point) and I can understand their wanting to limit the number of checkouts, but their choice of 26 is just ludicrous, and doesn't begin to pass the logic test. At least not MY logic test.


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