# Do you consider 45,000 words a novella?



## CharlieVenkman (Jan 25, 2012)

My first two books, and the next one I'm about to publish, all hover around 45,000 words.  Do you think of this length as a novella, or just a shorter novel?


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

The SFFWA say that anything over 40K words is a novel.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I consider that novella length, but it's nearing the cusp.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

It just doesn't matter.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I'd say that at that length you could pick whether you wanted to call it a novella or a novel.

However, if you publish it as a novel, then you might want to make sure that it has the estimated page count or a similar disclaimer/explanation regarding length.  That way, people who only want War & Peace size novels know what to expect!


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I agree with SFWA and many other sources for 40k+ = novel.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Unless they are like most and don't pay attention and complain anyway.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

As Patrick said above, according to the rules of Nebula Awards, the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA is the correct abbreviation, despite the two Fs) considers a novella to be 17,500 - 40,000 words. 

40,000 and above is novel territory.

However, this designation is more flexible in the world of other genres or general fiction.

Also, since the popularization of NANoWriMo, many consider a novel to be 50,000 and above.


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

In the 1980s and 90s, I read The Destroyer series of novels. They were often under 300 pages, which would put them in the mid 40,000s. I think these giganto novels of today are a fairly recent invention.


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

I consider anything between 20k and 50k to be a novella. The 40k range is pretty dubious at best.

If you're writing sci fi/fantasy, Iwould go with the SFWA.

If you're not, I would pick whichever one you think best fits. And make sure you put down the length in your blurb.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

i'm chiming in to say novel.

i've seen a few publishers calling 30K a novel, but I think that's pushing it.  most say 40.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Your series is YA, isn't it? Then it's definitely a novel and not a novella.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

40k plus is a novel in my genre.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Do note, however, that the convention is to count characters and divide that count by 6, rather than counting actual words.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

I have one at exactly that length, and I've been calling it a novella...but in all fairness, that's mainly because the 40-50K range is a bit nebulous depending on who you ask and I figured it was easier to go conservative.  That being said, I think you're pretty much tipping the scale there, so you're probably safe using either.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

Per RWA guidelines, a novella is 20-40k words.  But then a category length begins at 50k. If you dwell in between the two, I would say (as a reader, not writer) that this is novella territory. I wouldn't call a 45k book a full-length novel.


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

45k a novella? No freaking way. That is a NOVEL.

20k or so would be a novella. I just finished reading Clive Barker's Thief of Always, which is about 38k words. He bills that as a novella, and I believe him. The story flew by at cheetah speed. I think 45k would have padded that story out a wee bit too much.

Write the word amount you need to tell the story.


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## 鬼 (Sep 30, 2012)

Over 40K is a novel.


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

novella

novel = 60K+


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Opinions vary.

If you are in sci-fi/fantasy then technically it is a novel, but I call my 50K one a novella sometimes.  (Mainly that is because it forms one part of a collection of short pieces - short stories, novelettes & novellas - that I am writing, each a stand alone story but part of a whole.)


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

romanceauthor said:


> Per RWA guidelines, a novella is 20-40k words. But then a category length begins at 50k. If you dwell in between the two, I would say (as a reader, not writer) that this is novella territory. I wouldn't call a 45k book a full-length novel.


I am with this. To me as a reader, its a novella. But I don't read fantasy or science fiction much. Harlequin category, the little books you see on the checkouts are like 50000-55000 words, right? That is like 192 pages. At least those I found on goodreads said that. 192 pages is a very very short book for me. 
I guess it depends on the genre? 
For me the minimum for a novella I will read is a third of a book, so 32000 words I guess. 100 pages.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

CharlieVenkman said:


> Do you think of this length as a novella, or just a shorter novel?


Good to see this thread cleared this question up.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Call it what you like, but a very high up editor at a publishing house told me he would only consider novels, not novellas, and that unless it was at least 65k, don't even bother submitting. I know you aren't asking about submission to a publisher, but in other words, he felt like _a story isn't a novel until it's at least 65k words_.

Personally, I think genre has a lot to do with it. If I called a 45,000 word book a novel, my readers would eat me alive and insist on a refund for misrepresentation. Some genres get away with it just fine.


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## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

.
Dangerous territory around 40k. 
.
A "novella" will be less marketable than a "novel", see what you can add to flesh out more of the story. Two or three scenes and/or a prologue or something to get over the next 10k range?
.
.


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## Dan Harris (May 18, 2012)

Personally, anything I publish under 60K words / 200 paperback pages I'm going to call a novella.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Dan Harris said:


> Personally, anything I publish under 60K words / 200 paperback pages I'm going to call a novella.


Which is interesting, considering you write in the genre umbrella that has the most defined numbers of them all.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

KayBratt said:


> Call it what you like, but a very high up editor at a publishing house told me he would only consider novels, not novellas, and that unless it was at least 65k, don't even bother submitting. I know you aren't asking about submission to a publisher, but in other words, he felt like _a story isn't a novel until it's at least 65k words_.
> 
> Personally, I think genre has a lot to do with it. If I called a 45,000 word book a novel, my readers would eat me alive and insist on a refund for misrepresentation. Some genres get away with it just fine.


Good thing he wasn't around when Robert Parker was shopping The Godwulf Manuscript or we may never have gotten the Spenser series. Or Stephen King with Carrie. Or Ian Fleming. Or Michael Moorcock.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

The Great Gatsby . . .


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

most publishing houses require a minimum of 60K for a novel, but that doesn't mean books of 40 - 60K aren't novels. i would probably make sure the description underscores the length.  short novel equivalent to 200 print pages or whatever.


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## Shaun4 (Jun 29, 2012)

Fahrenheit 451 is around that length and is a novel. They even taught it as a novel study in my high school.
Ian Fleming's books are often short of 50k. Jim Thompson's The Getaway is probably well short of 45k since it's under 200 pages.

So I'd say yeah, it's a novel.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Isn't the real question not whether it's technically a novel, but will readers see novel in the description or assume it one for lack of any other notation and be disappointing in the length?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

It's a novel.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I consider it near enough to a short novel as makes no difference. Particularly if it's YA. I vote for calling it whichever you want, since a decent argument could be made for either.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

I'd consider it a novella. The SFWA's definition has always made me wonder if it came from several decades ago when books were shorter; I would consider anything under 50-60k a novella. But clearly opinions are mixed. I would say definitely put the word count in the description, no matter what you end up calling it.


Edit: Thinking about it some more, I'm actually not sure length is the most important determination of whether something in that mid-range is a novella or a novel. While I tend to think I consider anything under 50-60k a novella, the truth is it depends heavily on the story. There are plenty of books in that mid-range mentioned in this thread that are clearly novels, from Farenheit 451 to Harlequin category romances. But I've also read 40-50k stories that were clearly novellas. A novel and a novella _feel _different; the pacing and structure are different, although I'm not sure how to define the difference.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really help answer your original question, unless you know whether your book feels more novel-like or more novella-like :/ But judging by other responses in the thread, you'd be good either way. I do think putting the word count in the description is a good idea, though, since opinions seem to vary quite a bit about that particular word range.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

KayBratt said:


> ... he felt like _a story isn't a novel until it's at least 65k words_.


As a reader this is how I feel. I know the definitions put out by one group or another are different, but if someone is calling something a novel, it better be more than 60,000 words. Since length is a factor for me, I do pay attention to the description, but I know many readers don't. And of course cheap tricks like saying a short story is 40+ pages when it only is if you count the 20+ pages of the excerpt of something else at the back makes readers cynical about posted page count.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

humblenations said:


> My favourite short novel is only ten thousand words long. The author even makes a joke about it in the text. It's still a novel though.
> 
> It's called 'Christi Malry's Christie's Double Entry' by BS Johnson and is excellent comic writing.


How do you figure a story that's only 10,000 words is a novel? According to the SFWA, and other organizations, 10K puts it firmly in novelette territory.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Shayne said:


> How do you figure a story that's only 10,000 words is a novel? According to the SFWA, and other organizations, 10K puts it firmly in novelette territory.


There are authors who take 250,000 words to do not much more than traipse around the fantastic countryside and discuss bygone wars and who should be the new king.

Others can manage to pack a lifetime into a short story.

Which is more a complete experience?

I've not read the work in question. I'm just pointing out that the content of a work matters to how it feels to read it.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2013)

I'd consider anything over 40K words to be a novel.

The steadily increasing lengths started as a marketing thing for print books: it is easy and comparatively cheap to add more pages to a print book (e.g. each folio was 0.1p. 100 extra pages cost under 5p but could raise the price by £1), which means the publisher can charge higher prices and increase their profit margin. It also has a wider spine on the shelf so it's more likely to catch a reader's eye. There were also wholesaler concerns, which Charlie Stross went into here.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

CharlieVenkman said:


> My first two books, and the next one I'm about to publish, all hover around 45,000 words. Do you think of this length as a novella, or just a shorter novel?


It's a novella.

Novels start at just over 45K.

The source I cite for that is that Ray Bradbury's FAHRENHEIT 451 is often considered the shortest work to be considered a novel, not a novella, and its word count was 46,118 words.

http://creepingjesus.tumblr.com/post/15227512250/word-count-of-novels-a-highly-limited-list-o

http://indefeasible.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/great-novels-and-word-count/

Some folks prefer to round up to 50K, but I'd say 45K is the cut-off point. Go much over that, into FAHRENHEIT 451 territory, and it's a novel.


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## markobeezy (Jan 30, 2012)

40+ is a novel, though on the low end.

Novellas are 30k or less.

There are no such things as 30-40k literary works. They simply don't exist.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

markobeezy said:


> 40+ is a novel, though on the low end.
> 
> Novellas are 30k or less.
> 
> There are no such things as 30-40k literary works. They simply don't exist.


Crap. I need to delete Sunset Ride.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

markobeezy said:


> There are no such things as 30-40k literary works. They simply don't exist.


OMG! No wonder SHADA hasn't been selling lately! It's 32.5K.... it exists in the Twilight Zone only! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! 

P.S. Someone above mentioned something at some point about being able to read at 15K/hour. That's about 43 printed pages per hour.

You have my respect, my friend... I prefer a more leisurely pace. (I eschew "speed reading." I read for enjoyment, not efficiency.)


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I agree that it is how it FEELS when it is in that zone.

Most novels that fall short of 65K, which is "typical" minimum novel (not average, but minimum) have multiple sub plots. Many novels that are shorter don't, and so may feel more novella or long long short story in their structure.

But we're only talking adult novels. MG novels are often 30K. YA are often 40-50K even though some are tomes. And even the new NA books can go short OR long and still feel like a full-length novel.

I have never heard of dividing the characters by 6!


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

An average college student can read at 17,000 words per hour. 15k per hour isn't particularly fast, it's just around college level.

A fast college student reads at closer to 25,000 words an hour.

That's not sacrificing comprehension.

I just read David Weber's latest in about 4-5 hours. It's not a short novel. I understood it, and comprehended it.

Except for the math.

I hate the math.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

TexasGirl said:


> I agree that it is how it FEELS when it is in that zone.
> 
> Most novels that fall short of 65K, which is "typical" minimum novel (not average, but minimum) have multiple sub plots. Many novels that are shorter don't, and so may feel more novella or long long short story in their structure.


Depends on how much description you cram in, too. If what's happening is things actually happening a LOT can be accomplished in a short work.



> But we're only talking adult novels. MG novels are often 30K. YA are often 40-50K even though some are tomes. And even the new NA books can go short OR long and still feel like a full-length novel.


Genre fiction can too. Simon R. Green's Nightside series is all around the 50k mark for the first some-odd volumes. (Then later in the series one is like twice that or more.)



> I have never heard of dividing the characters by 6!


That confused me too. Words are words.


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## Dan Harris (May 18, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> Which is interesting, considering you write in the genre umbrella that has the most defined numbers of them all.


Yeah, it's personal preference. Largely because if I paid a typical novel price ($5-15) for a book that was either explicitly called a novel, or just not called a novella, and it came in under 200 pages, I'd feel a little ripped off. Publishing one likewise wouldn't sit well with me.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Dan Harris said:


> Yeah, it's personal preference. Largely because if I paid a typical novel price ($5-15) for a book that was either explicitly called a novel, or just not called a novella, and it came in under 200 pages, I'd feel a little ripped off. Publishing one likewise wouldn't sit well with me.


This is about 50k:



It's well worth the $8 IMO.


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

Academic debates aside, from a business perspective it's probably better to underpromise and overdeliver and give readers a meaty, satisfying novella instead of a skimpy novel.


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Harlequin category, the little books you see on the checkouts are like 50000-55000 words, right? .


A few lines are, but my CP's line is 80k and most other lines are 72-85k once they're done.

NINC calls a novel 50k.

I think throwing out the page count of the classics is like saying moves are just over an hour because that USED to be the standard. Can you imagine if you paid your $10 now and the movie as 60 mins? Unless it was super-amazing-nothing-better-I'm-going-to-buy-it-and-rewatch-it-overandoverandoverandoveragain awesome, we'd all be like, Really? 60 mins?

Standards change - market to your genre's reader's expectations or you'll pay in your reviews later.


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## Andrea Harding (Feb 27, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> OMG! No wonder SHADA hasn't been selling lately! It's 32.5K.... it exists in the Twilight Zone only! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
> 
> P.S. Someone above mentioned something at some point about being able to read at 15K/hour. That's about 43 printed pages per hour.
> 
> You have my respect, my friend... I prefer a more leisurely pace. (I eschew "speed reading." I read for enjoyment, not efficiency.)


I read at 12k/hour, but I get bored if I read any slower - I'm still taking everything in, I just prefer my reading to go at the same pace as if I were watching a film!

Oh and on the debate - I'd be really disappointed if I bought a 'novel' and it turned out to be so short. Anything less than 55k in my opinion is a novella.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

has the OP ever returned to even participate in this debate?


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

brendajcarlton said:


> Academic debates aside, from a business perspective it's probably better to underpromise and overdeliver and give readers a meaty, satisfying novella instead of a skimpy novel.


I disagree. It's probably better to write the story that needs to be written, however long that story happens to be, than to pad it out just to make people feel like they got their money's worth.

(Unless you write epic fantasy. Then pad away. Your genre demands it.)


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Andrea Harding said:


> Oh and on the debate - I'd be really disappointed if I bought a 'novel' and it turned out to be so short. Anything less than 55k in my opinion is a novella.


Well, frankly, it does in part depend on genre.

The 45K minimum is pretty well established, being recognized for award categories by organizations like the Mystery Writers of America, the Science Fiction Writers of America, and other such author organizations... also, at least when I was "growing up" as a writer... the 1980s-era Writers Markets and Writers Digest Magazines defined 45K as where a work stops being a novella and begins being a novel.

(Here's something from the SFWA: The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America Nebula Award [1] gives the following guidelines: Novel - 40,000 words or more; Novella - 17,500-39,999 words; Novelette - 7,500-17,499 words; Short Story - 7,499 words or fewer. For this purpose, "word" is understood to be five characters plus one space, so, a novel must have at least 240,000 characters-with-spaces, which, in practice, does make about one hundred printed pages, a reasonable length for a novel.)

Interestingly enough, one webpage defined Snoopy's "It Was A Dark And Stormy Night" (from the PEANUTS cartoons of Charles Shultz) as "the shortest novel ever written." The argument went something along the lines of it containing the proper scope and requisite elements for a novel, even though it was a mere 214 words.

Here's the link, just for giggles: http://ronosaurusrex.com/metablog/2010/03/14/the-worlds-shortest-novel-snoopys-it-was-a-dark-and-stormy-night/

Witty articles aside, I think most readers enjoy longer novels to shorter ones; but I tend to think these days, they prefer their long novels to have many short to ultra-short, one-scene chapters, so that there are many convenient "end points" at which they can put the novel down for a bit to attend to something else.

And ultimately, I think each story should be no longer, and no shorter, than necessary to adequately convey the tale to its best desired effect.

Which, of course, is a well-worded cop-out that means: write it however long you want. 

P.S. My personal READING preference to consider something a novel is the equivalent of 200 or more printed pages. At 350 words/printed page, that means I prefer novels that are at least 70K and up.

That being said, many of Max Allan Collins' early novels ran as brief as 175 pages, which works out to just over 61K words. And I enjoy his mysteries. So... there you go.


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## Andrea Harding (Feb 27, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Witty articles aside, I think most readers enjoy longer novels to shorter ones; but I tend to think these days, they prefer their long novels to have many short to ultra-short, one-scene chapters, so that there are many convenient "end points" at which they can put the novel down for a bit to attend to something else.


To be ultra-playful and pedantic, I also like to read my novels in one go  I would watch a film from start to finish, rather than turning over to watch something else in the middle or wandering off to go and bake a cake. Reading a book/respecting an author's writing demands the same attention for me!

Maybe I'm just a nutter.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Patrick Szabo said:


> Good thing he wasn't around when Robert Parker was shopping The Godwulf Manuscript or we may never have gotten the Spenser series. Or Stephen King with Carrie. Or Ian Fleming. Or Michael Moorcock.


These days it's about printing costs. The publishers don't want to take anything less than 65k words for print distribution. That was the only point I was making, is what they consider a novel. But the silver lining is as an indie author, you can publish whatever length you want! And call it what you want! As long as the reader is completely aware (in the description) of what they are spending their money on, we have so many different opportunities to be free with our creativity. It's really an awesome time for new authors.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

ruecole said:


> Your series is YA, isn't it? Then it's definitely a novel and not a novella.


I agree. 40,000 is borderline in general, but counts as a novel for YA. I understand that it also counts as a novel for science fiction and fantasy. For other genres, many readers expect at least 50K for a novel.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

KayBratt said:


> But the silver lining is as an indie author, you can publish whatever length you want!


True.



KayBratt said:


> And call it what you want!


Umm... only if you want to further confuse readers about the differences between a novella and a novel. I'm all for creative freedom, but one must keep the reader in mind... Calling something a novel vs. a novella (or short novel) is not a creative endeavor, but a marketing one.

Fly in the face of conventional length definitions all you want... but at your own risk. Confused customers = lower review scores.


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## RoseInTheTardis (Feb 2, 2013)

As Amanda said, 45K can be a novel in YA but even for YA, it's pretty short (unless it skews younger). 

Because it's right on the line, I think you can call it a novel or novella but to prevent reader confusion (and thus bad reviews) you might want to qualify either term (a long novella or a short novel). It's up to you though!


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Umm... only if you want to further confuse readers about the differences between a novella and a novel. I'm all for creative freedom, but one must keep the reader in mind... Calling something a novel vs. a novella (or short novel) is not a creative endeavor, but a marketing one.
> 
> Fly in the face of conventional length definitions all you want... but at your own risk. Confused customers = lower review scores.


That's why I said this:



KayBratt said:


> These days it's about printing costs. The publishers don't want to take anything less than 65k words for print distribution. That was the only point I was making, is what they consider a novel. But the silver lining is as an indie author, you can publish whatever length you want! And call it what you want! *As long as the reader is completely aware (in the description) of what they are spending their money on,* we have so many different opportunities to be free with our creativity. It's really an awesome time for new authors.


And it's also why in the description of my novella, The Bridge, I call it a short story. Even though to me it's clearly a novella at 17,000 words, I want no misunderstandings with my readers.

*From Description:
The Bridge is a short story of 17,000 words, approximately 72 pages


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Yes, it's definitely short. But you can get away with that in YA, particularly if it skews young or is contemporary. For fantasy or older-skewing YA, you might want to call it a novella.


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

Regardless of what SWFA or publishers would say...I would definitely consider it a novella.  I think if you try to call them novels you'll seriously risk having your readers feel "jibbed."


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

Personally, the only way I would call a 45k-word work a "novella" is if it's in a series wherein there already are "novels" of far greater length, making "novella" a comparative term. (Lindsay Buroker recently did this.)

Otherwise, I stick to SFWA definitions. (All my fiction is speculative fiction, at this time.) Were I to write in other genres, I'd refer to the respective organizations' definitions for what I'd call it.

Sure, not all readers will know what you mean—but readers won't learn if we writers are misusing terms willy-nilly.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

humblenations said:


> According to BS Johnson himself! The author.
> 
> Author and Authority sort of have the same derivation, yeah?
> 
> ...


Just because one is an author doesn't make one an authority on anything. I can call a horse a zebra, or a car an airplane, but that doesn't make it so, any more than calling a novelette a novel makes it one. There are definitions of both terms that are quite clear if one only looks them up - I really don't see why the author should make stuff up when there is already a perfectly good term for whatever length of story they've written. ETA: With the exception of the 40K - 50K range where there is some overlap.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

The average reader only knows the term _novel_ and _short story_.

They have no idea what a novelette or novella means. (many think a novella is only a Spanish soap opera) We've also got omnibus, flash fiction, shorts, prequel, sequel, saga...._no wonder readers are confused._

That's why I keep mine simple. I don't want to make a reader work to figure out what length story they are buying.

I just want them to hit the 'Buy' button.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

KayBratt said:


> The average reader only knows the term _novel_ and _short story_.
> 
> They have no idea what a novelette or novella means. (many think a novella is only a Spanish soap opera) We've also got omnibus, flash fiction, shorts, prequel, sequel, saga...._no wonder readers are confused._


But if everyone used the same terms consistently, and defined them in the book description ('a novelette of 15,000 words', for example), people would probably figure them out pretty fast.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

I don't know the answer, but I do know I've read some fatty novels with way too much padding that was needless or where the author took 100 words to say what a better writer could convey in 12 words.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

KayBratt said:


> The average reader only knows the term _novel_ and _short story_.


Depends on the genre, yanno. 



Shayne said:


> But if everyone used the same terms consistently, and defined them in the book description ('a novelette of 15,000 words', for example), people would probably figure them out pretty fast.


This. Nobody will learn the terms if authors don't use them.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

The Bridges of Madison County: published in 1992. It is about 32k words. It is always referred to as a novel. It has sold over 50 million copies to date.

Geez. Guess they didn't get the length memo either?  

45k is a novel. If you write a great story that feels complete and satisfies your readers, no one is going to complain about the length.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Doomed Muse said:


> 45k is a novel. If you write a great story that feels complete and satisfies your readers, no one is going to complain about the length.


Well, we know that's not true. 

But MOST people will be talking about how good the story is.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Caitie Quinn said:


> A few lines are, but my CP's line is 80k and most other lines are 72-85k once they're done.
> 
> NINC calls a novel 50k.
> 
> ...


If I was entertained by thus 60 minute movie I wouldn't care. My focus is on how entertaining a story is, not on how long it takes to get through it.

Everyone keeps talking about how the digital revolution has made it an All-New, All-Different world. Yet everyone still gets hung up on length (even to the point that someone in this thread suggested the OP to pad out the story an extra 10K words). I guess All-New, All-Different doesn't mean what it used to.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Carradee said:


> Depends on the genre, yanno.


I had to look up _yanno_ on Urban Dictionary. I thought you'd made up a new book term for length. I guess I'm not very hip, but the definitions are hilarious, _yanno_!


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## SEAN H. ROBERTSON (Mar 14, 2011)

After checking out various sites on word count, 50,000 is the average count for a novel. So, 45,000 is a novella. In the case of my vampira series, I wrote it as novella singles. Once done, I compiled the 64000 words into a complete saga novel. Hope that helps!


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

Patrick Szabo said:


> If I was entertained by thus 60 minute movie I wouldn't care. My focus is on how entertaining a story is, not on how long it takes to get through it.
> 
> Everyone keeps talking about how the digital revolution has made it an All-New, All-Different world. Yet everyone still gets hung up on length (even to the point that someone in this thread suggested the OP to pad out the story an extra 10K words). I guess All-New, All-Different doesn't mean what it used to.


I in no way said the ditigal age did this. I said standards change. They changed before, they'll change again. This standard has a lot to do with reader expectation.

Also, saying that you wouldn't mind a movie if it was really well done and 60 mins... that's subjective. Who is to say what's a movie then? What if you hate the movie I love? Is it no longer a movie if it's short? Is it a short now?


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

"Standards" changed to print longer books at a cheaper cost to slap a higher price on the cover. That's a fairly established fact. And then the public got used to sub-plots and B-C-D Lines. My point wasn't that this was CAUSED by e-publishing. 

And if a 60 minute movie you love is a 60 minute movie I hate, all that means is that I hated the movie. I don't assign my entertainment value with a length. That being said, even the MPAA has definitions for what is a short and what is a feature. And guess what? It doesn't matter to me. If a film entertains me, I don't care about how long or how short it was.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

45K is a novella in almost every genre. Some like YA might tend toward shorter works, and MG fiction deserves special mention, but I think the 40K+ guideline is fairly ridiculous in adult fiction. Good rule of thumb: Go with the longer of any guidelines out there. The SFWA is being overly permissive here; NaNoWriMo goes by 50K, and frankly even that's overly permissive.

In general, a reader who wants a novel-length work will be annoyed by anything that claims to be a novel but lacks the length. It's rare for readers to complain a book is too long, unless it's plodding or very obviously padded. And any reader who says 65K is too long for a novel is--except in MG--being absurd.

It doesn't really matter that the era of 100K+ novels is a recent invention and standards will change in the future. What matters is the expectation here and now. Claiming novel status at 45K words is a great way to make your readers feel cheated, and express their displeasure with reviews. In YA I think you can get away with this, at least on the borderline. In MG, absolutely go for it. Otherwise, call it a novella.

But always, always include the word count in your description.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

humblenations said:


> a novelette (that doesn't even mean anything)


_-ette_ suffix = little
Therefore, _novelette_ = "little novel"

Which makes the term "novelette" more obviously comprehensible than "novella", to me. From when my friends have asked me, "What's a &#8230; ?", they think similarly to me. (Though to be fair, I believe "novella" was originally the plural for "novel".)



Lummox JR said:


> What matters is the expectation here and now.


[wry tone]
And some folks-readers, even, who aren't writers-still have the expectation of 40k words being "novel" length. Particularly when they're the type who read a lot of classics and don't read many modern stories.

Words have definitions. The definitions aren't that hard to find.

And "reader expectations" aren't nearly as cut-and-dry as we writers would like to think.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Lummox JR said:


> 45K is a novella in almost every genre. Some like YA might tend toward shorter works, and MG fiction deserves special mention, but I think the 40K+ guideline is fairly ridiculous in adult fiction. Good rule of thumb: Go with the longer of any guidelines out there. The SFWA is being overly permissive here; NaNoWriMo goes by 50K, and frankly even that's overly permissive.


SFWA is the premier writer's org for those genres. Their awards are among the most prestigious available. It's not for nothing that they use the breakdowns they do.

NaNoWriMo is a dude talking his friends into writing a bunch of words in a month. 50k was chosen to make it a challenge for the timeframe, not because it's some rule. It's got about as much weight as a feather where defining anything goes.



> In general, a reader who wants a novel-length work will be annoyed by anything that claims to be a novel but lacks the length. It's rare for readers to complain a book is too long, unless it's plodding or very obviously padded. And any reader who says 65K is too long for a novel is--except in MG--being absurd.


There's no upper end on a novel. But there is a starting point. Maybe you like longer novels. That doesn't make shorter ones somehow not a novel.



> It doesn't really matter that the era of 100K+ novels is a recent invention and standards will change in the future.


The future is now. The serial has made a return. Loads of people are doing just fine with shorter works. Many 100k+ novels ARE padded. They could use a good edit to cut out the pointless musing of their authors (who pretend it's the characters' thinking) and cull the descriptives.

But beyond that, it is NOT a rule that all novels are X long. What IS a rule in TRADPUB ONLY is that a FIRST NOVEL has to be about 60-80k words in a lot of genres. That's the economics of printing, nothing more.

Established writers who can sell do not have word limits placed on their works. To see indies doing it to themselves is laughable.



> But always, always include the word count in your description.


Yes. Though it's not really that useful in many cases.

Considering readers barely know what a total of words means to their speed, and nearly universally think that more pages means a longer book because they seldom really consider typeface, font size, margins, and sheet size. They just see "1000" pages and go "ugh" or "yay" or whatever.

What will make people happy with a book is it being good. You can call it anything you want as long as it's good.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Carradee said:


> (Though to be fair, I believe "novella" was originally the plural for "novel".)


Actually, to be fair, novella is the word novel originates from. It's new, or news in italian.

Only in more modern times have we resorted to excessive classifications.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> SFWA is the premier writer's org for those genres. Their awards are among the most prestigious available. It's not for nothing that they use the breakdowns they do.
> 
> NaNoWriMo is a dude talking his friends into writing a bunch of words in a month. 50k was chosen to make it a challenge for the timeframe, not because it's some rule. It's got about as much weight as a feather where defining anything goes.


Exactly. And same with Romance. Here are the word count requirements that RWA uses for the purposes of the RITA:

_A "Novella" is a work of fiction of 20,000-40,000 words as determined by computer word count. Novella entries with word counts less than 20,000 or more than 40,000 will be disqualified.

A "Novel" is a work of fiction of at least 40,000 words as determined by computer word count. Novel entries with word counts less than 40,000 will be disqualified._

While I personally feel that 40,000 is a bit short for an adult novel, this is what my genre's organization uses. (Although, I should note that as a self-published author, I can't enter the RITA, but that's a whole 'nuther topic....


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

> Personally, anything I publish under 60K words / 200 paperback pages I'm going to call a novella.


Same here. But the ebook revolution, I believe, is redefining these metrics.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Amanda Brice said:


> While I personally feel that 40,000 is a bit short for an adult novel, this is what my genre's organization uses. (Although, I should note that as a self-published author, I can't enter the RITA, but that's a whole 'nuther topic....


If the story I write is 40,001 words, it's a novel. All I care about is if the story is right at a certain length. I had two shorts run up against novelette length. That's just where they came out to. Right at the 7500 word SFWA class cutoff.

I could have padded them and called them novelettes.

But I don't even refer to my novelettes as novelettes on covers. For the looks, mind you . . . it's too long of a word. 

And don't worry. Tradpub has a lock on the SFWA's awards (and membership) as well.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

James Bruno said:


> Same here. But the ebook revolution, I believe, is redefining these metrics.


Absolutely. When you actually had a printed book to hold in your hands (whether paperback or hardcover), you could easily see at a glance how long the book was. Was it a doorshop or a slim category romance? (Both of which are novels, incidentally.)

But with an e-reader, it's not always as obvious.

One of my favorite authors began in trad pub and is now exclusively indie. Her most successful series is one that she began when she was with a publisher, but is now putting out new books in the series straight-to-indie. Her books used to be 80K-85K words.

When I read her most recent novel in that series (she also has novellas and short stories in the series, but I'm only talking about the novels), it didn't feel short at all. It felt very complete and full -- sure I read it quite quickly, but I'd always devoured her books, often in a single sitting (usually staying up way too late at night to finish, making myself a zombie at work the next day).

Turns out it was actually 25K words shorter than normal. But you know what? It FELT complete. It FELT full. And a good part of that was that I didn't have the tangible example right in my hands of how thick the paperback was. And I really do feel a lot of that was because I read it as an ebook. I couldn't SEE the thickness or (thinness) of this new book, so I assumed it was every bit as long as the rest.

And even when I learned it was nearly a third a short as usual, I didn't feel the least bit ripped off -- because the story was full, complete, and satisfying.


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## Ardin (Nov 1, 2012)

Apologies if this has already been posted: 
I took it from http://indefeasible.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/great-novels-and-word-count/ 
Slaughterhouse-Five and Fahrenheit 451 are both in the 40's.

Alan Paton Cry, the Beloved Country 83,774
Alice Walker The Color Purple 66,556
Amy Tan The Kitchen God's Wife 159,276
Amy Tan Joy Luck Club 91,419
Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged 561,996
Ayn Rand The Fountainhead 311,596
Betty Smith A Tree Grows in Brooklyn 145,092
Charles Dickens A Tale of Two Cities 135,420
Daniel Defoe Moll Flanders 138,087
Emily Bronte Wuthering Heights 107,945
Erich Remarque All Quiet on the Western Front 61,922
Ernest Hemingway The Sun Also Rises 67,707
Frank Norris McTeague 112,737
Fyodor Dostoyevsky Crime and Punishment 211,591
George Eliot Middlemarch 316,059
George Orwell Nineteen Eighty-Four 88,942
Harper Lee To Kill A Mockingbird 99,121
Harriet Beecher Stowe	Uncle Tom's Cabin 166,622
Henry David Thoreau	Walden 114,634
Honore de Balzac Pere Goriot 87,846
J.D. Salinger The Catcher in the Rye 73,404
James Fenimore Cooper	Last of the Mohicans 145,469
Jane Austen Persuasion 87,978
John Knowles A Separate Peace 56,787
John Steinback The Grapes of Wrath 169,481
John Steinback East of Eden 225,395
Joseph Heller Catch-22 174,269
Kurt Vonnegut Slaughterhouse-Five 49,459
Kurt Vonnegut Welcome to the Monkey House 99,560
Leo Tolstoy War and Peace 587,287
Margaret Atwood Alias Grace 157,665
Mark Twain The Adventures of Huck Finn 109,571
Mark Twain Life on the Mississippi 127,776
Maxine Hong Kingston	Woman Warrior 70,957
Milan Kundera The Unbearable Lightness of Being 85,199
Nathaniel Hawthorne	The Scarlet Letter 63,604
Oscar Wilde The Picture of Dorian Gray 78,462
Ray Bradbury Fahrenheit 451 46,118
Ray Bradbury The Martian Chronicles 64,768
Toni Morrison Song of Solomon 92,400
Virginia Woolf Mrs. Dalloway 63,422
William Faulkner As I Lay Dying 56,695
William Golding Lord of the Flies 59,900


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## [email protected] (Oct 25, 2012)

KayBratt said:


> Call it what you like, but a very high up editor at a publishing house told me he would only consider novels, not novellas, and that unless it was at least 65k, don't even bother submitting. I know you aren't asking about submission to a publisher, but in other words, he felt like _a story isn't a novel until it's at least 65k words_.
> 
> Personally, I think genre has a lot to do with it. If I called a 45,000 word book a novel, my readers would eat me alive and insist on a refund for misrepresentation. Some genres get away with it just fine.


It depends on what your publisher says.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Relevant are the other works on the other lists on that page (on both extremes):

Cunningham, Michael	The Hours	54,243
Canales, Viola	The Tequila Worm  42,715
McMurtry, Larry	Lonesome Dove	365,712
Banks, Russell	Cloudsplitter	260,742


When the Emperor Was Divine  Julie Otsuka  34381
Long Stay in a Distant Land	Chieh Chieng	59856
Free Food for Millionaires	Min Jin Lee	207907
When the Elephants Dance	Tess Uriza Holthe	164718


What can we take from this?

NOVELS are extremely varied. What matters to a novel is content, not word count.


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

I agree that to call it a "novel", it's more than the word count.

I think most people are worried about what the average reader would claim is a "novel".
Some readers will feel jilted with a 40k novel. Although, I've seen some readers state the same thing when a novel reached 80k words.

I think what the readers were missing wasn't an extra 100 pages of unnecessary text. They were yearning for a more complete story.

Personally, I've read 100k+ novels that didn't feel complete as well as 40k books that were perfect.

It really comes down to personal preference. People are always going complain/ comment on a book's length. Just make sure it's the most complete story you can present.

IMHO, novel= a complete story with 40k words or more. But everyone is entitled to a different opinion.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> SFWA is the premier writer's org for those genres. Their awards are among the most prestigious available. It's not for nothing that they use the breakdowns they do.


I'm not really questioning their authority on the subject, though. What I mean is that while readers have tended to become acclimatized to longer novels, the 40K guideline doesn't reflect that _at all_. A book could be highly worthy of praise and awards at 45K, but it would be unmarketable as a novel in traditional publishing circles (with exceptions for certain genres) because it was too short. Obviously we can't defer strictly to trad-pub guidelines either, but I think a lot of readers are coming to us from that sphere, and more and more will continue to do so as ebooks rise. A writers' organization breaks down categories in terms of how they give out awards; that's irrelevant to readers.

But by all means, every author should write their stories to the length they naturally tend to be, no more or less. My only concern here is that on the marketing end of things, I think there's still a very strong reader perception that anything under 50K, likely 60 or more, isn't really a novel, and we dismiss that perception at our peril. I also think there's a very strong trend on KB and in ebook writer circles in general, where short fiction is making a comeback, to think of modern-traditional novel lengths as grotesquely long rather than a yardstick for what a lot of readers are looking for. Lots of readers will buy a 45K-word book, but some vocal percentage of them is going to be annoyed if they expected something longer because they saw the word "novel". (And they'll have much, much more right to be annoyed if the author doesn't disclose the word count.)


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Lummox JR said:


> I'm not really questioning their authority on the subject, though. What I mean is that while readers have tended to become acclimatized to longer novels, the 40K guideline doesn't reflect that _at all_.


There are plenty of examples of works well under the 60-65k or 80k or 100k that others have tossed out in this thread, all NYT sellers in the last decade.

You THINK people only like to read longer novels. (George R.R. Martin fans, sure...)



> A book could be highly worthy of praise and awards at 45K, but it would be unmarketable as a novel in traditional publishing circles (with exceptions for certain genres) because it was too short.


Again, you go from the standpoint driven by FIRST NOVEL requirements. They also say "don't go over 120k" often enough...

There's room for everything under the sun in tradpub already, and again, I highlight my earlier point: it is absolutely laughable to see indies restricting themselves to "only this much and higher"...

Best profit/time investment available to an author according to DWS (HERE):

*Summary*

_If you take the writing side out for an indie publisher, it is clear from the math that writing shorter novels is better than longer novels and writing short fiction is the best when looking at only income.

36 months to recoup investment on short fiction

40 months to recoup investment on a 50,000 word novel

80 months to recoup investment on a 100,000 word novel.

Other factors:

- It has been proven that writing in series helps increase sales.

- It has been proven that some genres sell better in some forms than others.

- It has also been proven that new product out helps sell older stuff. (Which goes back to writing shorter novels and short fiction because you have more product on a regular basis.)

- Novels have better outlets in paper than short fiction.

- Novels can sometimes take off and you get a great contract from New York.

- Short stories can make you money selling first to good magazines and also will be great promotion for your other work.

So if you are mercenary and are only thinking like an accountant, writing short novels (30-40 thousand words) and a ton of short fiction in certain genres in series is the best way to go. You get the best of both sides.
_

(I have 5 products out in 8 weeks in 2013. I'll tell you what 34 looks like in December.)



> Obviously we can't defer strictly to trad-pub guidelines either, but I think a lot of readers are coming to us from that sphere, and more and more will continue to do so as ebooks rise. A writers' organization breaks down categories in terms of how they give out awards; that's irrelevant to readers.


NOTHING is relevant to readers. That's my point. Outside of them enjoying what you give them. NOTHING matters.



> But by all means, every author should write their stories to the length they naturally tend to be, no more or less. My only concern here is that on the marketing end of things, I think there's still a very strong reader perception that anything under 50K, likely 60 or more, isn't really a novel, and we dismiss that perception at our peril. I also think there's a very strong trend on KB and in ebook writer circles in general, where short fiction is making a comeback, to think of modern-traditional novel lengths as grotesquely long rather than a yardstick for what a lot of readers are looking for. Lots of readers will buy a 45K-word book, but some vocal percentage of them is going to be annoyed if they expected something longer because they saw the word "novel". (And they'll have much, much more right to be annoyed if the author doesn't disclose the word count.)


Again, disclose the word count, but it means very little to anyone not in industry. Go ask 10 of your non-writer friends how many words are in the last book they read. They won't know. They won't even guess close to the mark.

I disclose word count and SFWA classification. It's irrelevant because I still get people wanting more. I want more Song of Ice and Fire. Because the d*mn story isn't finished, not because it's too short...


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## Tuttle (Jun 10, 2010)

As a reader (sci-fi/fantasy primarily):

Assuming it has the subplots of a novel, its can be called a novel. The length is long enough.

My general cutoffs is page count instead of word count, but I use 150 pages as my cutoff for what I'd think of as novel vs novella, and I estimate at 275 or 300 words per page, and with 300 words per page you're at 150 pages with 45k words. 

Both shorter novels, and longer novels have their place, just don't make the description sound epic. 

There have been things I've read on the kindle that people have called novels that I've thought were novellas, not enough to complain, but enough that I'm much less likely to buy from the author again...but 45k would be long enough to not run into that issue.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

KayBratt said:


> That's why I said this:
> 
> And it's also why in the description of my novella, The Bridge, I call it a short story. Even though to me it's clearly a novella at 17,000 words, I want no misunderstandings with my readers.
> 
> ...


At 17K, technically, it's a novelette.  And closer to 49 printed pages. But hey... not a big deal.


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## CaseyHollingshead (Dec 8, 2012)

I would consider it a novel; though the way the market is nowadays, you might want to describe it as a "short novel." 

Not something I would dwell on that much, though. The book's wordcount isn't going to change depending on what you call it.


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## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

Ardin said:


> Apologies if this has already been posted:
> I took it from http://indefeasible.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/great-novels-and-word-count/
> Slaughterhouse-Five and Fahrenheit 451 are both in the 40's.


Wow, thanks for that list, Ardin! Very enlightening. 

As to The Bridge, being a died in the wool SFF writer, for me 17 K is novelette, thus not quite novella, but definitely more than short story. But I realize that for most readers this is a very academic distinction, and as far as they're concerned, if it feels short, it is short. And we don't have much control over that kind of reaction, except for providing a satisfying read, regardless of length.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Makes me nostalgic for the days when writers didn't have to be marketers at all (though there were fewer of us because unless you were traditionally published, you were only "aspiring.")

(I'm not speaking of marketing in terms of doing interviews, signings and other appearances... I just mean the actual marketing of the book in terms of promotional copy, ad copy, etc.)

Why nostalgic?

Well, because marketing terminology decisions back then were made by publishers' marketing departments; writers didn't have any input into such decisions, really, which is of course a down-side, but the up-side of that fact is: we could just write and not debate about where our borderline 40,001-word tome fit... novel or novella... because that was up to the Big 7, not us.  LOL


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