# Here we go again? Amazon pulling titles due to content...



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

I am not a Yaoi reader so I am not super well versed in the titles and so on...but it seems that Amazon has started pulling some Yaoi titles due to violation of their terms of service. Some are wondering if this is another "AmazonFail" episode--that popped up a few years ago when Amazon de-ranked all gay and lesbian titles, a problem that was quickly solved when a hue and cry went up from readers all over the world (it even made it into the New York Times). Is this another round of more of the same? Yaoi is specifically gay manga.

Anyone else hearing about this?

http://theyaoireview.com/2011/05/03/yaoi-news-kindle-bans-some-yaoi-titles/

L


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## Todd Young (May 2, 2011)

I think the problem with Yaoi is that it usually deals with underage boys. It might not be illegal to write and read, but plenty of people are going to complain.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

Todd Young said:


> I think the problem with Yaoi is that it usually deals with underage boys. It might not be illegal to write and read, but plenty of people are going to complain.


You may be right about the complaining part but not the "usually" part. Yaoi can have underage characters in it but it is not usually as in more often than not. That is merely one theme in yaoi. There are plenty of other themes that have adult characters. Shota is a genre of Japanese manga that exclusively has underage characters. Think of yaoi as gay literature. You wouldn't classify gay literature as usually being anything except literature. I don't want this being the reason people think "Oh hey, it's yaoi so it's ok for Amazon to censor it and tell me what I can and can't read".


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## Seamonkey (Dec 2, 2008)

Thanks for giving that input...


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## Todd Young (May 2, 2011)

The Yaoi Review said:


> You may be right about the complaining part but not the "usually" part. Yaoi can have underage characters in it but it is not usually as in more often than not. That is merely one theme in yaoi. There are plenty of other themes that have adult characters. Shota is a genre of Japanese manga that exclusively has underage characters. Think of yaoi as gay literature. You wouldn't classify gay literature as usually being anything except literature. I don't want this being the reason people think "Oh hey, it's yaoi so it's ok for Amazon to censor it and tell me what I can and can't read".


I have to admit I don't know a lot about Yaoi. I have read some on Yaoi sites, and I'm sorry if I got it wrong, but that was just the general impression I had.


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## Vegas_Asian (Nov 2, 2008)

That would be disappointing. I don't read the genre but my friends do. One would assuming if someone didn't want to read it they would just not read or purchase it. Then no they have to keep the content away even from those that would purchase it.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

Vegas_Asian said:


> One would assuming if someone didn't want to read it they would just not read or purchase it.


It is exactly this easy.

I will never appreciate why some need to control what others read or watch.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

I wouldn't read it myself, but being told what I can and can't get is disturbing. I realize that booksellers choose what books they carry, but the fewer the number of booksellers there are, the more the balance of power tips to booksellers, and away from buyers. Perhaps Amazon could have the equivalent of a "back room" for books that you can still get to, but is hidden if you want it hidden.


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## meichell (May 5, 2011)

I think that the real and very scary issue here is that Amazon has decided that they know what's "offensive" and what they don't want their readers reading. It's not their place to say "we don't like this so you shouldn't read it". We, the customers, have the right to decide what we want to read. If someone doesn't want to read pornography or yaoi or yuri or hentai, they don't have to. Let us decide for ourselves what we want to read. What really drives me crazy about the whole "underage" argument with some of the removals is that they're NOT REAL. They are drawings of fictional characters, not pictures of actual underage children. But not all yaoi involves underage boys. Most yaoi is between consenting adults. And if an adult wants to buy it, it's not Amazon's (or anyone else's) place to say they can't. How long will it be before they decide that erotica books, no pictures, are "offensive"? What will be next and where will it stop? It's a slippery slope Amazon is treading. And in this economy, it's not a wise business practice.


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)

It IS their place to say. It's their store. You want something that Amazon doesn't want to sell? Find someone else that does sell it and buy it there. Want to provide a service to help others get things that can't be bought from Amazon? Open your own webstore and sell mobi versions of whatever you want. It really is that simple.


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## ak_popsicle (Dec 4, 2008)

I think Amazon is well within their rights here. They're not telling you that you can't read anything. Just that they won't sell it. This is the internet age and it's pretty darn easy for someone to set up a website to sell Ebooks. It isn't as if Amazon is going to go deleting these books off of your Kindle. They just won't sell them. Will that make it a bit harder for fans to find them? Sure, but if they want them that badly they will find them.

Walmart won't sell music with explicit lyrics (or at least they didn't when I was in High School, admittedly it's been awhile.) That isn't infringing on anyone's rights. It's not as if they make the CD players they sell unable to play those CDs. You just have to get them elsewhere.


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## meichell (May 5, 2011)

Actually, some of the titles they decided they don't want to sell anymore are exclusive to Kindle. There isn't anywhere else you can get them. They have an exclusive deal with the Japanese publisher Libre under the Animate USA company name to sell their stuff on Kindle. It's not even available in print. So, the titles they've removed from their store from this company can't be bought by anyone else. 
Personally, I think it's pretty fascist of Amazon to be doing this. They've been selling some of these books since the Kindle came out. Now they've decided they don't like them. Well, thanks for nothing, Amazon. You just lost a loyal customer thanks to this crap.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

And it is within our rights to object. Amazon doesn't really care what they sell, they care about the reaction to what they sell. If people can object to the content they sell, we can object to their pulling content. It's really that simple.

There's a real danger of too few outlets getting too powerful.


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## ak_popsicle (Dec 4, 2008)

meichell said:


> Actually, some of the titles they decided they don't want to sell anymore are exclusive to Kindle. There isn't anywhere else you can get them. They have an exclusive deal with the Japanese publisher Libre under the Animate USA company name to sell their stuff on Kindle. It's not even available in print. So, the titles they've removed from their store from this company can't be bought by anyone else.
> Personally, I think it's pretty fascist of Amazon to be doing this. They've been selling some of these books since the Kindle came out. Now they've decided they don't like them. Well, thanks for nothing, Amazon. You just lost a loyal customer thanks to this crap.


I agree that's sad. And stupid, and probably a bad business move. But what is keeping the publisher from finding another place to sell them? Either in Kindle format, another proprietary format, or an open format. I'd probably be miffed if Amazon stopped selling a genre I liked too. I understand the frustration. But they really aren't telling you you're not allowed to read something. They're not censoring. They're simply deciding not to sell something in THEIR storefront.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

I think the problem with the Kindle is that it is harder to verify that someone is old enough to buy the material. Granted, it is hard to determine that someone buying a rated video game, song, movie, or book is old enough to buy that material and have it sent to their home.

I would prefer that Amazon sell the books rather then remove them but it is Amazons call.


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## ak_popsicle (Dec 4, 2008)

QuantumIguana said:


> And it is within our rights to object. Amazon doesn't really care what they sell, they care about the reaction to what they sell. If people can object to the content they sell, we can object to their pulling content. It's really that simple.
> 
> *There's a real danger of too few outlets getting too powerful.*


See I don't see that. It's the internet. Anyone can set up a storefront to sell digital content. Hell, someone could set up a site specifically to sell kindle versions of books that Amazon has kicked off their digital shelves.

Amazon is a business, and it's their job to keep the most customers possible happy. If more people object to them carrying some genre (and yes, people really should mind their own business, but they don't.) then it's a better business move for them to remove it then keep it. They may lose some customers, but they'll probably keep more.

Ain't capitalism grand?


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

Amazon owns the Kindle store. Same as any other business, Amazon is within their rights to decide what they will and will not sell. Amazon has taken a stance on not being a distributor of, I guess you could call it, kiddie porn. I remember vividly a similar situation regarding a self published book on how to be a pedophile.

The fact is, Amazon isn't saying *"you cannot read this"* (although in some cases, IMO, they should) they are saying *"you cannot buy this here in our store"*. And guess what? If someone really wants to read whatever title it is, they can find it elsewhere.

I personally was disgusted by the pedophile book and was one of the many that appealed to Amazon in hope that they would pull the title--which they did. I'm all for freedom of press and speech and everyone reading what they want, but there are some things that are sick, twisted and depraved that need to be controlled. And if a company, such as Amazon with it's wide-range girth and equally important reputation, decides they'd rather not be involved in the selling of that product, so be it.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm all in favor of capitalism. But the less competition there is, the less capitalism there is. If a few big players dominate books, a few minor web sites don't change the dynamics much. Again, Amazon can carry whatever they want, and I remain free to object.


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## meichell (May 5, 2011)

I agree about kiddie porn, Italiahaircolor. Problem is, what they're banning ISN'T kiddie porn. Pure and simple they're changing their stance on things they've been selling since Kindle came out because they decided they don't like it or a few stupid customers said they don't like it. How far is it going to go? What's next, burning books? Once this starts, it snowballs. How long before your favorite books are gone? When is enough enough? These books weren't illegal or immoral, Amazon just decided they don't like the subject matter. What are they going to decide they don't like next? The Bible? Heaven knows that has sex, murder, incest and all manner of ugly things in it along with the good. They gonna ban that next?


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)

Book burning? Fascism? Give me a break.

By the way, with only three posts all very well versed in this specific yoai issue you don't really sound like a loyal customer. You sound like a disgruntled distributor.


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## ak_popsicle (Dec 4, 2008)

They aren't _banning _anything. They just don't want it in their store. They're allowed to do that, you're allowed to not like it. They're doing what they think is best for their business. They don't have a monopoly, they're not taking away anyone's rights.


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## meichell (May 5, 2011)

Uhm, no. I'm a nanny and a customer who spends a great deal of her hard earned money on Amazon. I read yaoi and in fact have ALL of the titles that are now gone and in all honesty I loathe businesses who pull this kind of crap. I have the Kindle app on my Ipad and 4 bookshelves full of yaoi manga in addition to 3 more bookshelves full of other genres of manga. I am well versed in this issue because it is personal to me. I have not been on the Kindle forum before now because I felt no need to be here. Now I have a need to be here. And, yes, book burning and fascism. It's a slippery slope and at the bottom of that slope are both of those things.


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## meichell (May 5, 2011)

Todd Young said:


> I think the problem with Yaoi is that it usually deals with underage boys. It might not be illegal to write and read, but plenty of people are going to complain.


It's NOT all under aged boys. Only a small percentage of the yaoi manga are under aged boys. Some of the manga they removed have teenage boy on boy action but NOT ALL. At least one of them is consenting adults.


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)

meichell said:


> Uhm, no. I'm a nanny and a customer who spends a great deal of her hard earned money on Amazon. I read yaoi and in fact have ALL of the titles that are now gone and in all honesty I loathe businesses who pull this kind of crap. I have the Kindle app on my Ipad and 4 bookshelves full of yaoi manga in addition to 3 more bookshelves full of other genres of manga. I am well versed in this issue because it is personal to me. I have not been on the Kindle forum before now because I felt no need to be here. Now I have a need to be here. And, yes, book burning and fascism. It's a slippery slope and at the bottom of that slope are both of those things.


Right, and at the bottom of the slippery slope that starts with thumb wrestling is duels to the death.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

It is not a slippery slope because the government didn't tell Amazon that they had to pull the titles. Amazon, a private business, decided they did not want to sell those specific issues/titles whatever. 

It is the same as a publisher chosing not to publish a specific author because they don't like the content. It is a business decision. You don't have to like that business decision but your dislike of that decision does not make it censorship, or a violation of the first amendment, or a sign that the US is facist.

If the government had mandated that Amazon and all other bookstores not sell said material, I would be up in arms. Then you enter into the realm of censorship and violations of free speech. I don't have to want to buy the material to say that it has every right to be published.

But that is not what happened.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

The people who objected to this content being there, would you also tell them "This is Amazon's store, they can sell whatever they want to?" I'm not going to attempt to force Amazon to change what they sell and don't sell, but my complaints had better be treated equally to the complaints of people who demand that they not sell certain books.


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)

QuantumIguana said:


> *The people who objected to this content being there, would you also tell them "This is Amazon's store, they can sell whatever they want to?"* I'm not going to attempt to force Amazon to change what they sell and don't sell, but my complaints had better be treated equally to the complaints of people who demand that they not sell certain books.


Yep.


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## mooshie78 (Jul 15, 2010)

QuantumIguana said:


> The people who objected to this content being there, would you also tell them "This is Amazon's store, they can sell whatever they want to?" I'm not going to attempt to force Amazon to change what they sell and don't sell, but my complaints had better be treated equally to the complaints of people who demand that they not sell certain books.


Yep. A store should have every right to determine what they do or don't want to carry.

And customers have every right to complain about those decisions. And each voice should be given equal weight, and ideally a company will base decisions on what the majority of their customers want. But at the end of the day, it's a private business and if the ownership doesn't want to carry certain things regardless of consumer interest, that's their right. Consumers can choose to live with it, or boycott and spend their money elsewhere.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Hi meichell and welcome. Thanks for confirming that some of the titles are gone. That was one of my questions.

What I think is unfortunate about this whole situation is that once again, Amazon is going to come out looking bad. I like Amazon and I enjoy doing business with them. However, there's a huge group of people that think Jeff Bezos is an agent of the devil and Amazon is the worst corporation ever created. When they make the decision to do things like this--stop selling a book, or remove a book from Kindles because it violates copyright (as happened with 1984) or something similar--the Bezos-hating crowd use that as yet another example of why he's bad, Amazon is bad, and the Kindle is a giant vast conspiracy...or something like that. I am exaggerating a little, but I think people who've hung around this forum enough know what I am talking about. The whole notion of "you don't own books, you rent them," and "what Amazon giveth, Amazon taketh away."

The 1984 fiasco...that book shouldn't have been sold and Amazon attempted to correct the mistake but did so clumsily (which they later acknowledged) and angered a lot of people in the process.

The pedophile book...from what I understand, that wasn't some random porn, it was a "how to" manual of how to be a pedophile. That was probably not a good book to be selling.

But Yaoi? From the little I've seen (my daughter reads various kinds of manga, so the books are in the house)...it doesn't seem particularly objectionable to me. And I guess that's where I do see the slippery slope argument. If some number of people can mount a campaign to get something pulled, where would it stop? Especially since these books have been sold since the beginning. What happened now to bring about this change?

L


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## ak_popsicle (Dec 4, 2008)

QuantumIguana said:


> The people who objected to this content being there, would you also tell them "This is Amazon's store, they can sell whatever they want to?" I'm not going to attempt to force Amazon to change what they sell and don't sell, but my complaints had better be treated equally to the complaints of people who demand that they not sell certain books.


Sure would. And those people have every right to boycott amazon because they don't like it. Just like people who are mad they pulled it have every right to boycott because of it. It boils down to which group of people spends more money on Amazon. They made the decision that they thought made the best economic sense.


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## ak_popsicle (Dec 4, 2008)

meichell said:


> Uhm, no. I'm a nanny and a customer who spends a great deal of her hard earned money on Amazon. I read yaoi and*in fact have ALL of the titles that are now gone*and in all honesty I loathe businesses who pull this kind of crap. I have the Kindle app on my Ipad and 4 bookshelves full of yaoi manga in addition to 3 more bookshelves full of other genres of manga. I am well versed in this issue because it is personal to me. I have not been on the Kindle forum before now because I felt no need to be here. Now I have a need to be here. And, yes, book burning and fascism. It's a slippery slope and at the bottom of that slope are both of those things.


But you still have them right? The did't go erase them from your Kindle. That would be wrong. Are they still in your archived items so you could re-download them if you wanted? That's something I hadn't thought of, and Amazon should refund people who bought them if they are no longer available for download.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

ak_popsicle said:


> Sure would. And those people have every right to boycott amazon because they don't like it. Just like people who are mad they pulled it have every right to boycott because of it. It boils down to which group of people spends more money on Amazon. They made the decision that they thought made the best economic sense.


Exactly.


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## Chris Strange (Apr 4, 2011)

This reminds me of the controversy around the end of last year when Amazon pulled some erotica by Selena Kitt (and others?) for having incestuous themes. Amazon claimed the books violated their Terms of Service, but said Terms were so vague that it was impossible to know what would and wouldn't be pulled. If Amazon were upfront at the beginning about what they would and wouldn't sell, this wouldn't be a problem

In the Selena Kitt case, Amazon actually removed the titles from customers' archives without explanation or refund. I have no idea if that is happening here, but it is something to be concerned about.

I wouldn't go so far as to call this censorship or facism, but it's bad business practice on the part of Amazon. Yaoi is not illegal, and customers have every right to complain. When a business is as large and dominant as Amazon, their business practices can and should be scrutinised.


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## meichell (May 5, 2011)

Leslie said:


> Hi meichell and welcome. Thanks for confirming that some of the titles are gone. That was one of my questions.
> 
> What I think is unfortunate about this whole situation is that once again, Amazon is going to come out looking bad. I like Amazon and I enjoy doing business with them. However, there's a huge group of people that think Jeff Bezos is an agent of the devil and Amazon is the worst corporation ever created. When they make the decision to do things like this--stop selling a book, or remove a book from Kindles because it violates copyright (as happened with 1984) or something similar--the Bezos-hating crowd use that as yet another example of why he's bad, Amazon is bad, and the Kindle is a giant vast conspiracy...or something like that. I am exaggerating a little, but I think people who've hung around this forum enough know what I am talking about. The whole notion of "you don't own books, you rent them," and "what Amazon giveth, Amazon taketh away."
> 
> ...


Finally, someone who hears that over and above me being angry that one of my favorite genre's is being targeted I'm concerned with "where will it stop". 
As for the vilifying of Amazon, before this I had no problems with Amazon. I don't know anything about the previous issues with content removal or the 1984 fiasco. Honestly, I was in jr high then and Amazon wasn't on my radar so I have no idea what that even refers to. My issue is that Amazon is removing content because they, or some of their customers, don't like it. With no regard for the customers who DO like it. If someone doesn't like yaoi and doesn't want to read it, don't by it! It's as simple as that. This isn't kiddie porn or anything illegal. There should be no reason for them not to sell it to an adult, like myself, who wants to buy it. It's not like someone walking into their local book store and seeing Playboy front and center uncovered. This is a digital book that you have to purchase to see the content. Why do I have to do without NEW content because someone else doesn't like it being on Amazon. I feel that Amazon is listening to one section of their customer base and ignoring another. And like I said, where does it stop? All someone has to do is complain that they don't like something and Amazon removes it? That's just plain stupid and unfair. 
As for the people who say that I can find the content in other stores, no, I can't. There is one company who has an exclusive deal with Amazon to sell their digital only manga on Kindle. So, any new stuff that Amazon feels would offend someone I'll never get to see? The entire thing is not right. Amazon has lost a very good customer because of this. I spend at least $200 a month, if not more, on books from Amazon. Both digital and physical. I'll be taking my business elsewhere. Because I have an Ipad not a Kindle, I can get an ereader app for another store and make my purchases there. I'm also going to be letting friends and family know of Amazon's unfair business practices and will try to convince them to use another store as well. I'm sorry to do this, but I won't give my business to a company that does this kind of thing. Not selling a book because it's a handbook on how to be a pedophile is very different from a yaoi manga. Pedophilia is illegal, for good reason, but yaoi is not. Neither are the few hetero sexual manga (known as hentai) that have been removed. And yet titles such as "No Holes Barred" which is way more graphic and actual people instead of drawings are still on Amazon. Explain THAT one to me! Looking at that cover offends me, but I don't complain to Amazon about it because I know that I don't have to buy it. And it doesn't bother me that someone else will because it's that person's right to do so. Leave my manga, and the other stuff that I don't read but others do, alone. Let people read what they like, so long as it's legal.


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)




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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

For those who say 'it's their business, they can do what they want', I have issue with that. You see, I bought a KINDLE and had they said very blatantly "we will approve some books and then change our mind without giving you any good reason for doing so" I wouldn't have purchased it. If they approved it the first time, why pull it later? That's bad business. It may be their business, but when you sell a device that isn't really a one purchase item (you have to buy books from them to use it), they do have a responsibility to their customers. Period. If your Content Guidelines say 'xyz is not allowed' but you'll approve it anyway only to pull it later, that's just stupid and that's bad business. To me it's bait and switch. "Hey! Buy this awesome device! Look at all the books we have for it!" and then bam, they yank the titles or decide they don't like a certain genre. But as you said, it's a business. They have a right to do what they want and we as PAYING CUSTOMERS have a right to complain about it. Acting like we have no right to be upset over it just ignorant.


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## CarlBullock (Dec 28, 2010)

I agree entirely that Amazon should have the right to refuse to sell or remove content which they find offensive just like any other business however why stop at kindle purchases? I fail to see how they can do this but still sell physical books with far more graphic depictions


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

CarlBullock said:


> I agree entirely that Amazon should have the right to refuse to sell or remove content which they find offensive just like any other business however why stop at kindle purchases? I fail to see how they can do this but still sell physical books with far more graphic depictions


That is another one of our big questions. Why just digital content? I have yet to hear an answer and that is why this is so frustrating.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

The Yaoi Review said:


> You may be right about the complaining part but not the "usually" part. Yaoi can have underage characters in it but it is not usually as in more often than not. That is merely one theme in yaoi. There are plenty of other themes that have adult characters. Shota is a genre of Japanese manga that exclusively has underage characters. Think of yaoi as gay literature. You wouldn't classify gay literature as usually being anything except literature. I don't want this being the reason people think "Oh hey, it's yaoi so it's ok for Amazon to censor it and tell me what I can and can't read".


This drives me crazy (INTP personality). But your argument is not factual. Amazon is NOT telling you what you can or cannot read. They are just not selling it. Hugh difference.

Personally, I do not care one way or the other. Sell it, don't sell it. Read it, don't read it. Just make an accurate case.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

KindleChickie said:


> This drives me crazy (INTP personality). But your argument is not factual. Amazon is NOT telling you what you can or cannot read. They are just not selling it. Hugh difference.
> 
> Personally, I do not care one way or the other. Sell it, don't sell it. Read it, don't read it. Just make an accurate case.


When they require me to buy a device specifically from them in order to be able to read their exclusive digital content they have on their site that is readily available, they are telling me what I can and can't read if they then pull that content after purchasing their device. You may not like the argument but the fact still remains. If they would refund me for this KINDLE I own, this discussion would be over for me. They will not do that.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

The Yaoi Review said:


> When they require me to buy a device specifically from them in order to be able to read their exclusive digital content they have on their site that is readily available, they are telling me what I can and can't read if they then pull that content after purchasing their device. You may not like the argument but the fact still remains. If they would refund me for this KINDLE I own, this discussion would be over for me. They will not do that.


Again, not factual. They do not "require" you to do anything. They have apps to read kindle content so no kindle is needed. And still, you make the choice to be their customer, or not. It is a personal choice, not a requirement.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

KindleChickie said:


> Again, not factual. They do not "require" you to do anything. They have apps to read kindle content so no kindle is needed. And still, you make the choice to be their customer, or not. It is a personal choice, not a requirement.


And you are clearly missing my point. The KINDLE was purchased *prior* to the issue surfacing. What good is an app going to do? I have the KINDLE already and it can't be returned.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

KindleChickie said:


> Again, not factual. They do not "require" you to do anything. They have apps to read kindle content so no kindle is needed. And still, you make the choice to be their customer, or not. It is a personal choice, not a requirement.


One other thing since we're pointing out factual arguments, the KINDLE did not have apps since the first day of its launch that I'm aware of. So apparently you already know when I purchased my KINDLE? I just want to be clear.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

The Yaoi Review said:


> If they would refund me for this KINDLE I own, this discussion would be over for me. They will not do that.


Have you asked _nicely_?

Amazon customer service is very good and often very generous. They just may give you your money back.


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## aiko (May 6, 2011)

I think "The Yaoi Review" is trying to say is that if she knew content was going to be pulled she would not have purchased the kindle in the first place. I understand that she DID NOT have to purchase the kindle, but she made a choice to purchase it because she thought it was a good investment into getting titles that is either exclusive on kindle or titles available on kindle. 

There are titles that are exclusively available on the kindle, and if they were to pull those titles, then YES amazon is essentially telling you want you can and can't read. Also Amazon is probably one of the bigger distributors so when they start to remove content, i can understand the concern. Sometimes all it takes is one Giant to make others follow.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

Elk said:


> Have you asked _nicely_?
> 
> Amazon customer service is very good and often very generous. They just may give you your money back.


I'm always professional. Their answer remains generic. Sorry you feel that way, blah, blah, blah... Our policy states, blah, blah, blah. Considering how old my KINDLE is I did not expect they would. However, perhaps after all of the unsatisfied customers I've sent their way about this very issue, maybe they will be more open to listen. I'm not done with Amazon on this topic anyway.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Good luck!


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

ProfCrash said:


> Good luck!


Thanks, I'm sure I'll need it.


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## originalgrissel (Mar 5, 2010)

The Yaoi Review said:


> When they require me to buy a device specifically from them in order to be able to read their exclusive digital content they have on their site that is readily available, they are telling me what I can and can't read if they then pull that content after purchasing their device. You may not like the argument but the fact still remains. If they would refund me for this KINDLE I own, this discussion would be over for me. They will not do that.


While I understand your frustration with Amazon, it seems to me that your real issue should be with the original publishers, since they were the ones that are making the material ONLY available through Amazon. Yes, Amazon removed the titles from their store,(as is their right) but the original publishers are the ones that decided to market their material exclusively with Amazon, thereby making it an impossibility for readers to purchase the material elsewhere if Amazon no longer carried it. So, it is not Amazon that is keeping anyone from reading the material, it is the original distributors that made the rather stupid decision to put all their eggs in one basket. If they were willing to make their material available to readers via other outlets Amazon removing the titles would make little difference. As for your purchase of the Kindle being a "requirement", it is only a requirement if you made the choice to read that digital content prior to the introduction of the Kindle for PC app. Again, that was a choice, you as a consumer made based on the decision of the original distributor's decision to publish only with Amazon. I totally understand why you are angry, I'd be angry too if they pulled the books I want to read, but Amazon is a company that is in the business of making money and if they think they will lose more business by keeping the books than they will by pulling them, that's the choice they will make. It sucks, but the old saying about the squeaky wheel getting the grease holds true. The people that complain the loudest are the ones that get the most attention from a company. Hopefully there will be enough of a backlash among readers of this genre (and those who simply don't think busy bodies should be forcing Amazon to be so freaking prudish!) that Amazon will return the titles to their store.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

The Yaoi Review said:


> Considering how old my KINDLE is I did not expect they would.


How old is it?


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

"While I understand your frustration with Amazon, it seems to me that your real issue should be with the original publishers, since they were the ones that are making the material ONLY available through Amazon."

I think that was someone else's point above, not mine. Either that or you may have misunderstood what I was saying. There is only one publisher from Japan that is exclusive with KINDLE right now not counting the independent authors that also publish with them and I have already contacted them to pull their content or to at least take their content over to the NOOK. I'm not messing around. The English publishers are all aware of the issue and are not happy either. When you have a story that is published in parts or volumes and KINDLE selectively deletes one of those making them all useless, they aren't going to risk putting it on their anymore.

"As for your purchase of the Kindle being a "requirement", it is only a requirement if you made the choice to read that digital content prior to the introduction of the Kindle for PC app."

That is the case. I have been a KINDLE owner for a long time. There were no apps available when I purchased it. I know what I'm talking about.  

Either way, I've alerted numerous sites that have picked up the story (including Publisher's Weekly) and I'm getting a lot of support from other KINDLE users. If I was the only one feeling this way, I may wonder if I am in the wrong but there has been an overwhelming amount of support from very angry KINDLE users. It won't only be the KINDLE users that strike back by going elsewhere with their business but publishers as well.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

Elk said:


> How old is it?


Hmm, I'd have to go back and check on Amazon but it's been a few years. It was one of the first released. Time for an upgrade but not here I'm afraid.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

You don't need Amazon to give you the green light to be done with Kindle.  You do have options.  Sell the device, give it away or throw it in the trash.  If you're unhappy, you don't need to continue to be a customer if you choose not to be.  That is where you can regain the control.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

Italiahaircolor said:


> You don't need Amazon to give you the green light to be done with Kindle. You do have options. Sell the device, give it away or throw it in the trash. If you're unhappy, you don't need to continue to be a customer if you choose not to be. That is where you can regain the control.


I'm fully aware of my options and I'm not a KINDLE 'customer' any longer I can assure you. I'm not the type to roll over however. Just walking away isn't an option. It's my right to let Amazon know my dissatisfaction, which is what I have been doing. Free speech and all that. This thread was not started by me but it does link to my site. Since someone from this thread came to my site asking questions, that is why I am hear stating my opinion and facts on the matter.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

The Yaoi Review said:


> I'm fully aware of my options and I'm not a KINDLE 'customer' any longer I can assure you. I'm not the type to roll over however. Just walking away isn't an option. It's my right to let Amazon know my dissatisfaction, which is what I have been doing. Free speech and all that. This thread was not started by me but it does link to my site. Since someone from this thread came to my site asking questions, that is why I am hear stating my opinion and facts on the matter.


And I appreciate your opinions and facts.

It's easy to say, "Throw your kindle in the trash" but in reality, it's not that easy to do. I bought my first Kindle in 2008. I have over 350+ books in my archive. I love the convenience of access and ease of reading. Now, if Amazon started selectively deleting titles in my favorite genre would I be happy? No, of course not. Would I throw away my Kindle immediately? Another no, of course not. I have a great deal invested in the device and books I have purchased.

I can truly appreciate Yaoi Review's unhappiness and wonder, if the tables were turned, would some of the other posters be so cavalier? Just thinking out loud here...

L


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

Leslie said:


> And I appreciate your opinions and facts.
> 
> It's easy to say, "Throw your kindle in the trash" but in reality, it's not that easy to do. I bought my first Kindle in 2008. I have over 350+ books in my archive. I love the convenience of access and ease of reading. Now, if Amazon started selectively deleting titles in my favorite genre would I be happy? No, of course not. Would I throw away my Kindle immediately? Another no, of course not. I have a great deal invested in the device and books I have purchased.
> 
> ...


Thank you  We just want someone to understand our frustrations. Unfortunately, this appears to be a pro-KINDLE type forum so not a lot of willingness to listen. Luckily for us, there are plenty of other forums, blogs and news sites open minded enough for us to state our concerns and discuss appropriately.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

The Yaoi Review said:


> Thank you  We just want someone to understand our frustrations. Unfortunately, this appears to be a pro-KINDLE type forum so not a lot of willingness to listen. Luckily for us, there are plenty of other forums, blogs and news sites open minded enough for us to state our concerns and discuss appropriately.


This is a pro-Kindle forum, yes, but people are very willing to listen. It would seem that people have been willing to discuss your concerns and issues openly, at least from what I have seen in the discussion so far. I haven't seen any bashing in this thread nor anyone calling you a troll. Not everyone has agreed with you but everyone has been polite and respectful. Please don't dismiss this forum out of hand or suggest that we are not open minded to discussion...that will get folks' ire up.

I am the one who started this thread and I am also a mod here, so obviously, I am paying attention.

L


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

Leslie said:


> This is a pro-Kindle forum, yes, but people are very willing to listen. It would seem that people have been willing to discuss your concerns and issues openly, at least from what I have seen in the discussion so far. I haven't seen any bashing in this thread nor anyone calling you a troll. Not everyone has agreed with you but everyone has been polite and respectful. Please don't dismiss this forum out of hand or suggest that we are not open minded to discussion...that will get folks' ire up.
> 
> I am the one who started this thread and I am also a mod here, so obviously, I am paying attention.
> 
> L


I didn't find the drama llama to be open minded. Perhaps I misunderstood his reason for posting that. My opinion of the thread went down a bit after that, after being told I should just throw my KINDLE away and also being yelled at for not having a factual argument. Yes, I do feel her tone was yelling as she was quite upset with her very first post. I have a different opinion of how our discussion has been treated and only came over here due to another party feeling the same way. I appreciate you starting the thread. Thank you. I've just found the discussions elsewhere to be much less taxing.


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)

The Yaoi Review said:


> Thank you  We just want someone to understand our frustrations. Unfortunately, this appears to be a pro-KINDLE type forum so not a lot of willingness to listen. Luckily for us, there are plenty of other forums, blogs and news sites open minded enough for us to state our concerns and discuss appropriately.


Disagreement does not equal close-mindedness. I get your point and I completely understand your frustration. I just don't think it rises to the level of fascism and censorship--which by going back and rereading I realize were not your words.

This is the way I look at it, and you are free to disagree. Kindle books are like using a cell phone and paper books are like using land line phones. My cell phone is a luxury. When I don't get service or it drops I call I don't get mad. I just wait until I have service again or if it's a call I HAVE to make I use a land line. Same with the Kindle. When a book is unavailable or it costs more than a paper book I just shrug my shoulders and move on. If I HAVE to read a book I get the paper version.

Or, another bad analogy )) is my TV. Not every show ever made is available on demand on my TV. I watch what's being shown. Same for Kindle. I read what's available and don't fret what's not.


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)

The Yaoi Review said:


> I didn't find the drama llama to be open minded. Perhaps I misunderstood his reason for posting that. My opinion of the thread went down a bit after that, after being told I should just throw my KINDLE away and also being yelled at for not having a factual argument. Yes, I do feel her tone was yelling as she was quite upset with her very first post. I have a different opinion of how our discussion has been treated and only came over here due to another party feeling the same way. I appreciate you starting the thread. Thank you. I've just found the discussions elsewhere to be much less taxing.


I'm sorry, but when someone starts talking about fascism and censorship and that book burning is on the way because a manga book got pulled from the Kindle Store I have to take the drama llama out of the barn.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

malligator said:


> I'm sorry, but when someone starts talking about fascism and censorship and that book burning is on the way because a manga book got pulled from the Kindle Store I have to take the drama llama out of the barn.


I'm of the mindset that in order to have an intelligent discussion, one has to keep their emotions in check so I can understand your point there but it just adds fuel to the fire, you know? I think if Amazon gave us better answers for their somewhat random pulling of titles, we wouldn't be so fired up over it. What didn't come over to this thread as much as in other threads (and why people are getting upset as well) is the concern over gay titles getting yanked but comparable hetero titles being left up. It was only after we specifically pointed out those titles that Amazon yanked them. But that's a WHOLE other story. ~_~


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## kaotickitten (Jan 9, 2011)

Ok I have read all this thread.  Yes you should be able to buy what you want. But at the same time amazon should be able to sell and not sell what they want.  It is a kin to a fast food place choosing what items are on their menus.  I feel for you, but I also researched this before I posted here.  It does not say anywhere that amazon is getting rid of all yaoi.  They have just rempoved some titles that they felt were to explictive.  They then informed the publisher that if they wanted it back on the kindle they would have to tone it down.  Here is a quote:


Yaoi Press’s founder Yamila Abraham has stated they will now have to change their explicit images on their prose titles to more ‘romantic’ images that will be acceptable to KINDLE

While you may not be fond of this and see this as censorship the publisher is doing what they can to make these manga still availabl to you or to be avaliable to you some time in the future.

I am sorry you have to be inconvineced by this but remeber, they are a buisness and are out to make money.  If you don't like what they have done tell them.  They may listen or they may have a larger buyers market telling them to get rid of the stuff.  Either way telling the your opinon is the only thing that may change their stance.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

kaotickitten said:


> I am sorry you have to be inconvineced by this but remeber, they are a buisness and are out to make money. If you don't like what they have done tell them. *They may listen or they may have a larger buyers market telling them to get rid of the stuff.* Either way telling the your opinon is the only thing that may change their stance.


But that's the issue. It is not clear who is telling Amazon they are unhappy with these titles and asking for their removal. One person? Ten? Ten million?

I live in Maine and people here may or may not be aware of the recent flap we've had with the Governor and a mural that adorned the walls of the Department of Labor. Apparently, the Governor received an anonymous fax (it was signed "A Secret Admirer") that complained about the mural. Based on this one letter, the Governor had the mural removed. People are (rightly so, IMHO) furious about this. There should be a process in place and that process is not sending anonymous faxes expressing displeasure which are then immediately acted upon.

Now Amazon is taking down titles that have previously been for sale. Why? Who complained? How many?

Let's face it, Amazon is not selective about what it sells. They claim to be "the earth's largest bookstore" and Jeff Bezos has said he wants every book ever published available on the Kindle. So it makes me wonder why these particular titles have been identified to be removed, especially in light of the fact there was another episode (AmazonFail) wherein it appeared that they were specifically targeting gay & lesbian books. I think it is appropriate to ask if this is more of the same and not in a good way.

L


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

The Yaoi Review said:


> I didn't find the drama llama to be open minded. Perhaps I misunderstood his reason for posting that. My opinion of the thread went down a bit after that, after being told I should just throw my KINDLE away and also being yelled at for not having a factual argument. Yes, I do feel her tone was yelling as she was quite upset with her very first post. I have a different opinion of how our discussion has been treated and only came over here due to another party feeling the same way. I appreciate you starting the thread. Thank you. I've just found the discussions elsewhere to be much less taxing.


Please do not ascribe feelings to me, I am quite capable of deciding how to feel. And having said that, let me once again remind you your facts are off. I was not yelling, nor was I upset. I was pretty specific when I said I really do not care who reads it, who doesn't or who sells it or not.

Now, I need to get back to my Kindle. I intend to reread Frankenstein, love the part where the angry villagers carry torches storm the castle.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

I agree that Amazon seems to be targeting GLBT books and that is not good. I don't agree with that decision. I don't disagree with it enough to want to boycott Amazon. I would probably be more incensed if they were removing the entire genre and not selected titles. 

I don't think that Amazon's business practices need to be as transparent as the government of Maine. One is a private organization beholden to its investors and stock holders, the other is a public organization beholden to the people. So while I am not happy that Amazon is removing these specific titles, I don't think that Amazon has to explain why it is doing so.

I think it is awful PR and I think it is a bad decision. I hope that the folks who are upset are able to put enough pressure on Amazon to get the books resotred but I doubt that is going to happen. 

Someone posted on Mobile Read that these titles are available at BN for the Nook. If that is the case, I would suggest that you switch devices and make sure Amazon knows why.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

The Yaoi Review said:


> Hmm, I'd have to go back and check on Amazon but it's been a few years. It was one of the first released.


Then I see Amazon's reluctance to take it back. It's pretty hard to argue "The hamburger was awful and I want my money back" after you have eaten all of it.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

malligator said:


> . . . I have to take the drama llama out of the barn.


Thereby maligning llamas everywhere; llamas and alpacas are some of the calmest, most laid-back, gentlest critters there are.

They have a libertarian approach to the world and would certainly not condone removing access to any book.

(Long time llama and alpaca owner).


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

I just downloaded the Nook app to my iPad. Can someone list the titles of the books in question because I'd like to look at them? Thanks.

L


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)

Elk said:


> Thereby maligning llamas everywhere; llamas and alpacas are some of the calmest, most laid-back, gentlest critters there are.
> 
> They have a libertarian approach to the world and would certainly not condone removing access to any book.
> 
> (Long time llama and alpaca owner).


Sorry to malign llamas. "Drama Wolverine" just doesn't work as well. lol


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

ProfCrash said:


> I don't think that Amazon's business practices need to be as transparent as the government of Maine. One is a private organization beholden to its investors and stock holders, the other is a public organization beholden to the people. So while I am not happy that Amazon is removing these specific titles, I don't think that Amazon has to explain why it is doing so.


You are absolutely right, of course. But I still wonder how many people have to complain to make action happen. I doubt they'll be forthcoming with that information, but the lack of transparency troubles me. I have a lot of money invested in Kindles and my Kindle library. I want to believe that my archive will be there for me as long as I want it to be...intact with all the books I have purchased. Shenanigans like removing books from peoples' Kindles (the 1984 debacle), removing books from sale that had previously been for sale, de-ranking a whole category of books and calling it a "database error"...it can give people pause. Even me, stalwart Amazon customer since 1996 (or whenever they started).

As I said downthread, there are a whole lot of people who are way more suspicious than me and jump on every little thing that Amazon does as evidence of their "evilness." So is this latest episode just a boneheaded decision or part of their "homophobic agenda" that they have quietly been pursuing for years? I believe the former but I also wonder why they keep making these boneheaded moves. Don't these people learn from their mistakes?

L


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)

I wonder how many titles are pulled daily or weekly that go unnoticed because they don't deal with a sensitive topic?


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

malligator said:


> Sorry to malign llamas. "Drama Wolverine" just doesn't work as well. lol


 

I should have put a smiley in my post. Reading it again it appears as if I am actually annoyed. I think the picture is great fun.

The original picture is a life size advertising poster used around Christmas by Gap stores some years back. Amusingly, llamas often really like scarves and are very proud to wear one.

Back on topic, I am sure you are right that there are titles that quietly evaporate, without notice.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

kaotickitten said:


> Ok I have read all this thread. Yes you should be able to buy what you want. But at the same time amazon should be able to sell and not sell what they want. It is a kin to a fast food place choosing what items are on their menus. I feel for you, but I also researched this before I posted here. It does not say anywhere that amazon is getting rid of all yaoi. They have just rempoved some titles that they felt were to explictive. They then informed the publisher that if they wanted it back on the kindle they would have to tone it down. Here is a quote:
> 
> Yaoi Press's founder Yamila Abraham has stated they will now have to change their explicit images on their prose titles to more 'romantic' images that will be acceptable to KINDLE
> 
> ...


To correctly state the story, that is an English publisher of prose and not manga. She's able to change a few illustrations without it being a bother. Japanese manga compiled completely of illustrations aren't the same way.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

The Yaoi Review said:


> "While I understand your frustration with Amazon, it seems to me that your real issue should be with the original publishers, since they were the ones that are making the material ONLY available through Amazon."
> 
> I think that was someone else's point above, not mine. Either that or you may have misunderstood what I was saying. There is only one publisher from Japan that is exclusive with KINDLE right now not counting the independent authors that also publish with them and I have already contacted them to pull their content or to at least take their content over to the NOOK. I'm not messing around. The English publishers are all aware of the issue and are not happy either. When you have a story that is published in parts or volumes and KINDLE selectively deletes one of those making them all useless, they aren't going to risk putting it on their anymore.
> 
> ...


I'd be angry as well. And it seems to me that if Amazon won't sell the material, then it shouldn't count towards the 'contract' and they should be free to sell it where ever they want. It makes no sense to be the exclusive dealer for something you won't sell. And that does border on censorship.

Titles do get pulled for who knows what reason. For example, I purchased the Lord of the Rings "box set" when the ebook was first released. You can't buy the complete set from Amazon anymore. And you can't even get the second book, The Twin Towers, for some reason. (Since I already own it I haven't investigated. Just a bit a trivia I am aware of.)


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## s0nicfreak (Jun 10, 2010)

So why is it that they aren't removing the many erotica titles with real nude females on the front, nor the photo books containing pictures of real nude females? Is it only males that are offensive?

Amazon has the right to sell what they wish, but they are going about it in a very sexist way.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

s0nicfreak said:


> So why is it that they aren't removing the many erotica titles with real nude females on the front, nor the photo books containing pictures of real nude females? Is it only males that are offensive?
> 
> Amazon has the right to sell what they wish, but they are going about it in a very sexist way.


That was another one of our issues. I pointed out a link that had three manga style girls with large fully exposed breasts who were bent over and this image was literally ON the Amazon listing for any child to see. Until it was pointed out, they were fine with it. How are they going to allow that image on their site yet pull KINDLE titles for images that are within and have to be purchased to see? That wasn't the only example either unfortunately. We don't want to have to be the Amazon police scouring their listings to point out equally explicit heterosexual titles but right now that is what is happening.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

The Yaoi Review said:


> That was another one of our issues. I pointed out a link that had three manga style girls with large fully exposed breasts who were bent over and this image was literally ON the Amazon listing for any child to see. Until it was pointed out, they were fine with it. How are they going to allow that image on their site yet pull KINDLE titles for images that are within and have to be purchased to see? That wasn't the only example either unfortunately. We don't want to have to be the Amazon police scouring their listings to point out equally explicit heterosexual titles but right now that is what is happening.


Exactly.

I can't even begin to tell you how tired I am of Amazon targetting LGBT titles.

I see some posters defending this as "a retailer's right" but I seriously doubt they would say the same if they were jerking titles that involved blacks, for example, or Hispanics. How loud would the screams be if they jerked every straight erotica title?

But it's all right as long as it's minority sexuality that is targeted?

No. It is discrimination. And some of the titles pulled came closer to romance than erotica anyway. It was purely targeting LGBT. And it is worrying which will be next.


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## malligator (Jul 1, 2010)

If I've read this thread correctly it's only the Kindle versions that have been pulled. The DTB's are still available from Amazon. It's frustrating, but I still can't elevate to the level of a civil rights violation, facism, sexism, homophobia, LGBT-a-phobia, or anything thing else people are trying to make it.

And for the record, I didn't even know Amazon sold "erotica" so if the hetero erotica disappeared I wouldn't even notice. If my local "erotica" perveyor replaced his stock with NYT Bestsellers then, yeah, there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


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## mom133d (aka Liz) (Nov 25, 2008)

s0nicfreak said:


> So why is it that they aren't removing the many erotica titles with real nude females on the front, nor the photo books containing pictures of real nude females? Is it only males that are offensive?
> 
> Amazon has the right to sell what they wish, but they are going about it in a very sexist way.


Why is it Hollywood can show nude females from the front and back, but all we see of a male is the back? That's sexist as well.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

malligator said:


> If I've read this thread correctly it's only the Kindle versions that have been pulled. The DTB's are still available from Amazon. It's frustrating, but I still can't elevate to the level of a civil rights violation, facism, sexism, homophobia, LGBT-a-phobia, or anything thing else people are trying to make it.
> 
> And for the record, I didn't even know Amazon sold "erotica" so if the hetero erotica disappeared I wouldn't even notice. If my local "erotica" perveyor replaced his stock with NYT Bestsellers then, yeah, there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Since Amazon won't tell us OR the publishers or authors why, no one knows for sure but keep in mind that it is much easier for Amazon to justify pulling content from their own device than it is to not sell a print version. They can point to their Content Guidelines. Their silence is not helping the issue.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

mom133d said:


> Why is it Hollywood can show nude females from the front and back, but all we see of a male is the back? That's sexist as well.


Because more men are put in charge of making those decisions and they don't want to see penis.  I also think Hollywood thinks all women are prudes and that we couldn't possibly want to see that. WE DO!


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## Feylamia (Mar 21, 2011)

And here I was thinking amazon had learned their lesson from the reactions to their their pulling the lgbt books.


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## CarlBullock (Dec 28, 2010)

What makes this interesting is Yaoi manga artists are usually women creating manga for female readers


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## patrickt (Aug 28, 2010)

CarlBullock said:


> What makes this interesting is Yaoi manga artists are usually women creating manga for female readers


Really? I didn't think anything made it interesting.


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## MaybeTomorrow (May 8, 2011)

I'm so sick of these things happening. It doesn't take a genius to guess what 'groups of people' have caused this to happen. Why don't Amazon pull ALL explicit content from their catelogues, so that they actually comply with their own policies indiscriminantly? Oh wait, pulling hetero titles and hentai would lose them money and they _surely _wouldn't want to do that to their shareholders.



CarlBullock said:


> What makes this interesting is Yaoi manga artists are usually women creating manga for female readers


In what way is it interesting? Please explain.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

The reason why Amazon may be unwilling to sell digital formats of titles they also sell in print form may have to do with their ability to prohibit shipping to certain states that have stricter obscenity or child porn laws.  I recall Oklahoma having issues with the movie Bang the Red Drum Slowly (or something like that).  I was living in the state at the time and wanted to see the movie to determine if it really was child porn.  I couldn't find it and Amazon would not ship it to Oklahoma at that time.  Federal state and local authorities always go after the deepest pockets in cases like this, putting Amazon at risk of legal charges.

The whole thing is an unknown.  I did a google and found Iowa actually sent a man to prison for Yaoi manga.  Maybe this has more to do with legal issues surrounding the genre than it does people complaining.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

KindleChickie said:


> The reason why Amazon may be unwilling to sell digital formats of titles they also sell in print form may have to do with their ability to prohibit shipping to certain states that have stricter obscenity or child porn laws. I recall Oklahoma having issues with the movie Bang the Red Drum Slowly (or something like that). I was living in the state at the time and wanted to see the movie to determine if it really was child porn. I couldn't find it and Amazon would not ship it to Oklahoma at that time. Federal state and local authorities always go after the deepest pockets in cases like this, putting Amazon at risk of legal charges.
> 
> The whole thing is an unknown. I did a google and found Iowa actually sent a man to prison for Yaoi manga. Maybe this has more to do with legal issues surrounding the genre than it does people complaining.


That actually is not correct (about Christopher Handley). Early in the case it was incorrectly reported he had yaoi when in fact, the actual problem material had never been specified as it could not possibly be since the trial was still ongoing. In the end what he had was far different from yaoi material. Here is the link for anyone interested in the actual facts of the case: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-02-11/christopher-handley-sentenced-to-6-months-for-obscene-manga

Regarding your other point, I've heard a similar argument that from a legality standpoint, they will have a much harder time stating they did not know what they were selling (on the KINDLE) when they preapprove the content so that could be the case. It's not just a state by state issue, it also is by country as other countries can and do have very strict laws on content.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

From his lawyer


> I have seen a questioning of the legality of everything from Nabokov and "American Beauty" to Japanese Yaoi, which depicts figures that are androgynous, hairless, and clearly childlike, but not clearly children. If you asked me today whether it is legal to sell Yaoi on the internet knowing that it would be available in Iowa or most anywhere in the south, I am not sure what the answer would be.


http://theyaoireview.com/2010/03/03/yaoi-news-christopher-handleys-attorney-addresses-yaoi/

This is clearly a legal issue. Until it is sorted out in a court of law, the biggest retailers will likely run scared as they would be the deep pockets justice like to hit.

In the beginning I couldn't care less, now I a pretty creeped out by the whole issue. This isn't about minority sexuality as it relates to homosexuality, but depictions of children sexualized.


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

KindleChickie said:


> From his lawyer
> 
> http://theyaoireview.com/2010/03/03/yaoi-news-christopher-handleys-attorney-addresses-yaoi/
> 
> ...


"but depictions of children sexualized." I'm not sure how you got that from that quote, which by the way was sent to me in an email from his attorney. There are no children sexualized in yaoi. The Japanese have a different way of depicting adults in yaoi. No pubic hair does not mean it's a child being sexualized. If that were the case, every man who likes a woman with a Brazilian wax could be considered to have a thing for kids. Obviously that isn't the case. The Japanese mangaka who draw this and their intended Japanese female audience typically do not like to see body hair drawn. It's personal choice of a particular culture. The Japanese have another genre called "shota", which DOES depict children being sexualized. They are two different genres looked at by two very different audiences. Yaoi itself has a wide range of men depicted from slender androgynous guys to very muscular men. Handley's attorney is generalizing too much in his statement as to what yaoi is. He sent that email to me as a warning to yaoi fans to be wary because he was very much concerned over how vague the law is. Ultimately it is up to a jury to determine what they feel is appropriate content meaning a jury in Iowa would probably vote differently than a jury in say San Francisco. His client was not found guilty by a jury, he took a plea deal because he did not want to go through a full trial. That was his choice, not his lawyer's. The material he had showed abuse of children. It isn't even comparable to yaoi, which has consenting adults. It's fine if you do not like yaoi or know what it is or care to find out but to make such a sweeping statement as that is pretty appalling considering your past statements to me about factual arguments.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

"clearly childlike".  You did not dispute it and posted it on you own site.  Creepy.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't read Manga of any type but I have collected comic books and read plenty of serialized stories to know that people reading the material know the characters and know their ages and backgrounds. I would guess that in a yaoi series that the readers would know the age of characters in the series that they are reading. 

I don't find it creepy that some folks prefer the human form, no matter what age, presented in a certain way. The Amazing Race last night had a task were all the racers were waxed while in Brazil. Why? Because many Brazillians apparently don't like to see hairy humans. Many men go for regular wax treatments. Does that mean that the Brazilians are creepy? It sounds like they have a similar basis as the Japanese that finds very hairy humans asthetically unpleasing. 

If that means back hair, chest hair, leg hair, and pubic hair then so be it. It is a cultural norm that might differ from our cultural norm.


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## s0nicfreak (Jun 10, 2010)

Won't somebody think of the digital children?!  

Protecting children is a bs excuse that people use to get rid of things they don't like.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

I respect KindleChickie's right to see something or a single statement as Creepy.
And to express that opinion....after all the stating of that opinion does not make it so.
And I think one needs to view all of this with the info provided by The Yaoi Review.  We are talking about Manga - which is specifically Japanese. And further explained that there is hentai, and there is yaoi and there is also shota.  Within the culture that produces this work for specific audiences there is understanding of this and acceptance of it.
But I also think we have to view this in the light of the mores of the cultures into which the product is offered beyond that in which it was produced.
Iowa mothers do not appear to want any of these varieties of hetero and **** oriented erotica able to be accidentally viewed by their underage children.  Makes  sense.
And Amazon is deciding to make some decisions about what they will make available.
We should also realize that Amazon stays quite about almost everything, so this issue is not unique.
I have always been negative to what some may see as perverted.
I have also believed the the human form is a beautiful work by God.
And I believe that if a product is offered and no-one purchases it, then it will stop being offered.  So clearly some want this product.
The electronic medium makes it very difficult to determine what is right and wrong from the classical sense because the original definitions (and laws) were crafted in a different era.  I just hope that we don't tread on too many toes while we blunder about trying to find the correct formula for this new era.

Just sayin......


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## yaoifanmo (May 9, 2011)

KindleChickie said:


> "clearly childlike". You did not dispute it and posted it on you own site. Creepy.


The quote was "clearly childlike, but clearly not children" Just because some yaoi depicts its characters as childlike does not make it child porn. It just means that character has an innocence about them that all children have. So there isn't a need to call it creepy. I like all the yaoi that comes out. No matter which category it falls under because they all have a certain cuteness to them and the story lines behind them are great. If you're not someone who reads yaoi then I don't think you have the right to comment on it, or say Amazon is right for deleting it titles.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

Books we dislike are the price we pay for a free press.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

I know little of Manga, and nothing of Yaoi.

Is there an unbiased, accurate description of Yaoi online?  

For example, is the Wikipedia entry reasonably balanced?  (The associated discussion page does not contain descriptions of significant controversies in the presentation.)


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## The Yaoi Review (May 5, 2011)

KindleChickie said:


> "clearly childlike". You did not dispute it and posted it on you own site. Creepy.


I posted his email in its entirety because I felt what he had to say was important. You don't edit someone's email. I know it must be difficult for you to have a conversation about something you have demonstrated you don't know much about. When you're ready to have a mature conversation, I'll be here.


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## Joe Renzo (May 28, 2011)

I'm not too familiar with the genre, but if it's gay/lesbian/cross-dressers/transsexual/straight/bi/whatever, who cares? There are people who like to read it, and they should be able too. Now the sub parts of the genre other members were talking about above, dealing with sexual stories of underage kids (if that's even true, like I said I've never read any of it), but if that's true the people should not only not be able to read it, they should be arrested. I'm a straight man but what other people want to do, or maybe just want to fantasize about, they have the right to do it. As long as it doesn't involve underage kids or animals, I say read/fantasize away, it's whatever floats your boat. And the funny thing is the people complaining about gay literature being sold here, probably are secretly buying it themselves. The most outraged, outspoken people against these issues are usually hypocrites doing/buying the same thing they are hollering about, but behind closed doors. That's my opinion and I'm sticking too it...If your different (based on a small minority's opinions) not by mine and most of sane America, don't let that small portion of ignorant people get you down. Because we are all the same, except for that small minority of usual hypocrites, we're a step above them. HA


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## Joe Renzo (May 28, 2011)

KindleChickie said:


> "clearly childlike". You did not dispute it and posted it on you own site. Creepy.





yaoifanmo said:


> The quote was "clearly childlike, but clearly not children" Just because some yaoi depicts its characters as childlike does not make it child porn. It just means that character has an innocence about them that all children have. So there isn't a need to call it creepy. I like all the yaoi that comes out. No matter which category it falls under because they all have a certain cuteness to them and the story lines behind them are great. If you're not someone who reads yaoi then I don't think you have the right to comment on it, or say Amazon is right for deleting it titles.


WOW, I don't know but I think KindleChickie has a point here, I haven't even read all of these posts. I didn't have to after I read that one, WOW

I don't know KindleChickie I might change your name on here after reading all this, I would go with:

KindleOldWomanDefinitlyNotUnderageCouger


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## mrockzzz (Jun 29, 2011)

Does Amazon notify authors/publishers before or when the pull a title from the site or do you find out when sells stop?


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Does Amazon notify authors/publishers before or when the pull a title from the site or do you find out when sells stop?


They put a block on the novel. Then it shows that way on your KDP Bookshelf as _blocked_. You will receive an e-mail telling you that the content of you novel doesn't meet their Terms and Conditions. The novel stays on Amazon, but there isn't a icon to buy it.

This actually happened to me. So I wrote to them and told them that I thought that I was in compliance. A few days later they sent me an e-mail and said the block had been lifted. I never really found out what they objected to. The icon was put back on and people could buy the novel again.


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## hakimast (Jul 23, 2011)

That is not my type of manga.


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