# 9/11: Buy a Koran Day



## akpak (Mar 5, 2009)

Now that "Burn the Koran" day has been denounced and canceled, there's now a movement for "Buy a Koran" day.

Unfortunately (fortunately?) there are a LOT of Kindle translations of it, so it might be hard to make ONE of them go "bestseller" tomorrow.

I'm going to buy this one:


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## UltraPremiumDeluxe (Aug 10, 2010)

Awesome idea.  I'm so sick of the hatred.  That one looks great to me.


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## AnelaBelladonna (Apr 8, 2009)

This could get ugly.

I won't be buying one.


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## LibbyD (Apr 28, 2009)

Akpak, that's a wonderful idea.  It makes me happy to hear a voice of reason.  Thank you.


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## dimples (Jul 28, 2010)

I like this idea. Need to find a good one that's available in Europe.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

I think it's a grand idea as well. There is a lot to be gained from having an open mind.


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## akpak (Mar 5, 2009)

No, I'm not a Muslim. I'm also not Jewish, but I've read the Old Testament. I'm also not Hindu, but I've read the Bhagavad Gita. I'm not Taoist, but I've read the Tao Te Ching. I could go on and on.

The point is, reading the holy books of other cultures is very illuminating and helps promote tolerance and understanding.

In the immortal words of Evie in The Mummy: "No harm ever came from reading a book."


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## larryb52 (Nov 18, 2009)

never talk politics or religion...this thread should be closed IMHO, way off base...


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks. . .there are lots of books that can be read for lots of reasons. . . You may choose to purchase a Koran or not. . .that is your choice. . . .and it is o.k. either way. . . . . .please remain courteous, tolerant and respectful of each other's beliefs and points of view as the purchase of them is discussed.

That said. . . .I already own a Koran. . . a couple of copies in fact, as well as various versions of the Bible, both Protestant and Catholic, which includes the Jewish Torah. There's also a book of Mormon around here somewhere; and I've studied a variety of oriental philosophies. I've not completely read all of them, but have dipped into all of them. . . . . . .

And. . . .on reviewing the thread. . . .I think Not Quite Kindle is the best place for it, so I will be exercising my vast (o.k. not so vast, but they work here.  ) mod powers and moving it there.


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## Nicolas (Apr 25, 2010)

akpak said:


> No, I'm not a Muslim. I'm also not Jewish, but I've read the Old Testament. I'm also not Hindu, but I've read the Bhagavad Gita. I'm not Taoist, but I've read the Tao Te Ching. I could go on and on.
> 
> The point is, reading the holy books of other cultures is very illuminating and helps promote tolerance and understanding.
> 
> In the immortal words of Evie in The Mummy: "No harm ever came from reading a book."


I completely agree with you. No harm can come from reading a book that defines the lives of millions. Understanding others is the best way to get along fine.


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## Neo (Mar 30, 2009)

akpak said:


> No, I'm not a Muslim. I'm also not Jewish, but I've read the Old Testament. I'm also not Hindu, but I've read the Bhagavad Gita. I'm not Taoist, but I've read the Tao Te Ching. I could go on and on.
> 
> The point is, reading the holy books of other cultures is very illuminating and helps promote tolerance and understanding.
> 
> In the immortal words of Evie in The Mummy: "No harm ever came from reading a book."


Thank you akpak, I couldn't have expressed it better, but completely agree with you.

I too have found that reading holy books of other cultures, while not defining them, helps in better understanding and accepting their values and social constructs, as well as sometimes individual actions and reactions.


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## UltraPremiumDeluxe (Aug 10, 2010)

Neo said:


> Thank you akpak, I couldn't have expressed it better, but completely agree with you.
> 
> I too have found that reading holy books of other cultures, while not defining them, helps in better understanding and accepting their values and social constructs, as well as sometimes individual actions and reactions.


Absolutely. Plus I might even take away a little inspiration to be a better person myself.


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## TJoseph (Sep 1, 2010)

I think this is completely the wrong message to send on 9/11.  Terrorist acts should not create more tolerance or converts for the muslim religion.  If you want to buy a Koran do it on a day that Islam promotes peace and acceptance of other's beliefs not a day that commerorates hatred and intolerance of non-muslims.  It was a horrible day in US history and we should remember it for what it was and stay vigilant to prevent it from ever happening again in the future.


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

If I were planning to buy a particular book on 9/11, I wouldn't NOT buy it because of what happened on 9/11/01.  I don't see any significance to buying it on a particular date.  Also, as far as the burning that was cancelled, it was one crackpot in Florida who was given far too much media coverage.


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## southerntype (Aug 17, 2010)

This is the stupidest idea I've ever heard of.

This thread should be closed.


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## Pawz4me (Feb 14, 2009)

To promote "buy a Koran day" on 9/11 seems extremely insensitive to me.  As does burning any religion's holy book, as does putting a mosque/Islamic community center near Ground Zero.

To quote John Boehner (a person with whom I usually disagree) -- "Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do."


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

"Read myths. They teach you that you can turn inward, and you begin to get the message of the symbols. Read other people's myths, not those of your own religion, because you tend to interpret your own religion in terms of facts - but if you read the other ones, you begin to get the message. Myth helps you to put your mind in touch with this experience of being alive. Myth tells you what the experience is."  Joseph Campbell, from The Power of Myth.


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## UltraPremiumDeluxe (Aug 10, 2010)

Pawz4me said:


> To promote "buy a Koran day" on 9/11 seems extremely insensitive to me. As does burning any religion's holy book, as does putting a mosque/Islamic community center near Ground Zero.
> 
> To quote John Boehner (a person with whom I usually disagree) -- "Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do."


I agree with you--I think the 9/11 angle isn't the best one. My only issue is with ignorance and hatred.


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## 4Katie (Jun 27, 2009)

I think it's important to separate terrorists who happen to be Muslim from the Muslim faith in general. It's wrong for foreign countries to hate the entire country of America because of what one 'pastor' in Florida is doing, and it's wrong for us to condem an entire religion because of the acts of a few.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

southerntype said:


> This is the stupidest idea I've ever heard of.
> 
> This thread should be closed.


I'm sorry you are offended, but we allow open, civil discourse on this forum.


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## Pawz4me (Feb 14, 2009)

I think we should promote a Golden Rule day.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

Pawz4me said:


> I think we should promote a Golden Rule day.


I think it should be _every_ day.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

As someone who lost family and friends on 9-11, I think that we do need to separate out terrorists from Muslims in general.  And if you want to buy a Koran, please do.  If you want to buy it tomorrow and it has meaning for you, I'm all for it.  If you don't want to buy a Koran, don't. I won't be buying a Koran, but that's simply because I have no desire to read any religous texts right now, not because I'm anti-Muslim.

If you blame all people for the actions of a few, then look at whatever group you belong to and hold yourself responsible for all their actions and then and only then can you throw stones.  

I vote for tolerance and understanding all the way.  And for those who knee-jerk react to all things in order to start an argument, please, take the day off.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

scarlet said:


> And for those who knee-jerk react to all things in order to start an argument, please, take the day off.


Excellent sentiment. Thanks Scarlet.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Oh, and for those who asked the thread be closed, let me quote one of my favorite movies...

"I've never seen an issue too dangerous to be TALKED about."


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## Annalog (Dec 28, 2008)

Thanks Scarlet.


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## R. M. Reed (Nov 11, 2009)

I have a paperback Koran, and a paperback New Testament, because they were being given out for free at a book fair. Each one by a different group, who were sure that once I read their book I would immediately adhere to its teachings. Both sit on my bookshelf in case I need to look up a reference for a story.

I think the smartest thing to buy is a copy of the US Constitution. This sentence make more sense than entire books: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


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## akpak (Mar 5, 2009)

R. Reed said:


> I think the smartest thing to buy is a copy of the US Constitution. This sentence make more sense than entire books: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


Actually, even smarter than buying a copy of the Constitution would be actually *reading* it 

All I have to add to the "ground zero" mosque debate is this:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/


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## Disappointed (Jul 28, 2010)

I think I'll shop for some Carl Sagan instead.

Or Richard Dawkins.

Or Christopher Hitchens.

Or play my _Power of Myth_ videos...


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## lonestar (Feb 9, 2010)

I don't hate anyone.  I'm not anti Muslim.  I don't want to start an argument.  I'm not intolerant.  I am understanding.  I am very reasonable.  I have an open mind.  I enjoy learning, knowing and understanding cultures other than my own.

Buying a Koran on 9/11 feels wrong to me and for me.  Another day but not 9/11.  Peace to everyone..


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## 4Katie (Jun 27, 2009)

scarlet said:


> Oh, and for those who asked the thread be closed, let me quote one of my favorite movies...
> 
> "I've never seen an issue too dangerous to be TALKED about."


Indeed. I'm always up for an argument debate spirited discussion.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Ok, I dont intend this to be uncivil, but instead to challenge some ideas presented here.

In the spirit of the topic, and if there's a lot to be gained from an open mind, and no harm ever came from reading a book, would there be the same reaction on here if someone started a thread suggesting that Jews should buy a copy of Mein Kampf on Yom Hashoah?


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

While I think you mean well, doing this on 9/11 is about as insensitive as burning the book in the first place. It's just a different way of using the book and the date for political points.


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## 4Katie (Jun 27, 2009)

I'm all for ANYONE buying and reading ANY book on ANY subject, including religion. What could be better than people learning about and understanding other people?


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## Neo (Mar 30, 2009)

swolf said:


> Ok, I dont intend this to be uncivil, but instead to challenge some ideas presented here.
> 
> In the spirit of the topic, and if there's a lot to be gained from an open mind, and no harm ever came from reading a book, would there be the same reaction on here if someone started a thread suggesting that Jews should buy a copy of Mein Kampf on Yom Hashoah?


Well, beyond the question of the appropriateness of the date, I don't think you can really compare the message and content of the Koran with Mein Kampf!!!!! I mean, seriously??

If you read the Koran (and yes, I have), you would know that there is nothing anti-whatever other religion in it.

I'm not muslim, but actually find your analogy very offending - to compare the content of a holy book with the most hatred filled book there is. Just wow.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Neo said:


> Well, beyond the question of the appropriateness of the date, I don't think you can really compare the message and content of the Koran with Mein Kampf!!!!! I mean, seriously??
> 
> If you read the Koran (and yes, I have), you would know that there is nothing anti-whatever other religion in it.
> 
> I'm not muslim, but actually find your analogy very offending - to compare the content of a holy book with the most hatred filled book there is. Just wow.


So, are you saing that when it comes to Mein Kampf, one shouldn't have an open mind?

Or are you saying that there is harm from reading some books?

And BTW, I didn't 'compare the contents'. Please don't put words in my mouth.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Neo said:


> If you read the Koran (and yes, I have), you would know that there is nothing anti-whatever other religion in it.


Koran 5:51
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm a bit confused about the people who think it's insensitive. It sounds more to me like a statement against terrorism. As in, we're still staying united and not blaming innocent people for what a few radicals in their religion did. In the spirit of that, people are buying a copy of the Koran to say that they're not afraid to read it and learn more and don't believe the Koran encourages terrorist behavior (which I don't believe it does). It seems like an attempt to educate ourselves on what their religion is really about and showing that it's not just focused on violence. *shrugs*


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

The problem is that giving offense isn't always a matter of intent. You could just as easily argue that those people burning the koran were taking a stand against terrorism too. I'm sure they see it that way. But it doesn't change the hard feelings it can engender.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

D. Nathan Hilliard said:


> The problem is that giving offense isn't always a matter of intent. You could just as easily argue that those people burning the koran were taking a stand against terrorism too. I'm sure they see it that way. But it doesn't change the hard feelings it can engender.


Sure, I'm sure that's their intent, but they're alienating a lot of innocent people in the process. I just want us to include people instead (by learning more about them and showing that we don't hold them all responsible for what a few people in their religion did) and make a statement about being united, instead of splitting apart.

That being said, I'm not very interested in religion, so I'm not going to buy a Koran. I was just confused about why people were offended by it and wanted to explain a different viewpoint of the idea.


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## Neo (Mar 30, 2009)

swolf said:


> So, are you saing that when it comes to Mein Kampf, one shouldn't have an open mind?
> 
> Or are you saying that there is harm from reading some books?
> 
> And BTW, I didn't 'compare the contents'. Please don't put words in my mouth.


I am not putting words into your mouth. You chose your analogy, nobody else did. When one talks about particular books it's because of their content, no 

I understand from what you wrote that to you, reading the Koran for an American (Christian or other) is similar to a Jewish person reading a book proning the extermination of his/her entire community. And I find that shocking. That's what I'm saying. But maybe yours was just a very poor analogy?


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

Jessica Billings said:


> Sure, I'm sure that's their intent, but they're alienating a lot of innocent people in the process. I just want us to include people instead (by learning more about them and showing that we don't hold them all responsible for what a few people in their religion did) and make a statement about being united, instead of splitting apart.
> 
> That being said, I'm not very interested in religion, so I'm not going to buy a Koran. I was just confused about why people were offended by it and wanted to explain a different viewpoint of the idea.


I completely understand. I tend to tiptoe around religious matters myself. Although I confess to sometimes dealing with aspects of the subject in a very veiled way when I write.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

If you're suggesting that someone buy Mein Kampf in order to understand some of what let to the Shoah, then all to the good.  

Listen, no matter what I say or you say or anyone says, some people will think it's a good idea, some people will ignore it, some people will think it's mildly stupid and some people will think it's the most offensive thing they've read.  And guess what, they're all right, because it's what they think.  As long as they can have their opinion and cordially interact with people with different opinions.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Neo said:


> I am not putting words into your mouth. You chose your analogy, nobody else did. When one talks about particular books it's because of their content, no


As a matter of fact, 'no' is correct.

I chose those two books because they both inspired one group of people to kill another group of people. That's an analogy of results, not content.

And because both of those books inspired people to do that (whether misguided or not), those books are disliked by many of the members of the groups who were victims (whether misguided or not).



Neo said:


> I understand from what you wrote that to you, reading the Koran for an American (Christian or other) is similar to a Jewish person reading a book proning the extermination of his/her entire community. And I find that shocking. That's what I'm saying. But maybe yours was just a very poor analogy?


Or maybe you just didn't understand it.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

scarlet said:


> If you're suggesting that someone buy Mein Kampf in order to understand some of what let to the Shoah, then all to the good.


I'm not suggesting anything. I'm asking if someone did suggest Jews buy Mein Kampf, would the reaction here be the same? (We should have open minds and a book never hurt anyone.)


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## tdmsu (Feb 5, 2010)

The Koran did not inspire the attacks of 9/11.  That is the huge misconception.

Those attacks were inspired by a small group of crazy people and a crazy sense of vengeance - they perverted the religion in hopes of starting a war between Islam and Christianity - a war they hoped to take advantage of for personal gain and to satisfy their twisted sense of justice.

The only message sent to terrorists by burning the Koran is "you win" - we give up our own principles if you just scare us enough.


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## 4Katie (Jun 27, 2009)

tdmsu said:


> The Koran did not inspire the attacks of 9/11. That is the huge misconception.
> 
> Those attacks were inspired by a small group of crazy people and a crazy sense of vengeance - they perverted the religion in hopes of starting a war between Islam and Christianity - a war they hoped to take advantage of for personal gain and to satisfy their twisted sense of justice.


Right on.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

tdmsu said:


> The Koran did not inspire the attacks of 9/11. That is the huge misconception.


Of course it did.



tdmsu said:


> Those attacks were inspired by a small group of crazy people and a crazy sense of vengeance - they perverted the religion in hopes of starting a war between Islam and Christianity - a war they hoped to take advantage of for personal gain and to satisfy their twisted sense of justice.


Your opinion. Those who did it were inspired by the words in the Koran. They were radical muslims. That's a fact.


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## G.L. Douglas (Jun 27, 2010)

Those who buy it, should read it. To save a little money, you can read selections here:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

I should not be here.  I should not be here. But... I'm wondering what the definition of "small group" is in this case?  A few hundred?  A few thousand?  A few million?  How big does a group of terrorists have to be before it is no longer called "a small group" of terrorists?  Does anyone have an actual count on the number of radical Muslims there are in the world?  Are radical Muslims all terrorists?  Are all terrorists radical Muslims?  Does anyone have a definition of how many radical Muslims it takes to... I should not be here.


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## Jasonmh (May 7, 2009)

Neo said:


> If you read the Koran (and yes, I have), you would know that there is nothing anti-whatever other religion in it.


I admit I am alittle confused by the seeming 2 major sides in this thread, one promoting the Quran as entirely peaceful, and others with examples of how it is clearly not.
When I see quotes from the book like this:
"And the *Jews say*: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the *Christians say*: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; *may Allah destroy them*; how they are turned away!" "
Sure doesn't seem that way to me.

I have not read all of the Quran, perhaps this thread will prompt me to do just that. I am more of a live and let live person, and I'm not trying to call anyone out here. I am wondering what passages of all acceptance and tolerance of others may exist in the book that would contradist the more hate filled passages I seem to see.


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## LibbyD (Apr 28, 2009)

To those who have expressed concern about some thoughts and actions being "insensitive":

I am a survivor of 9/11.  My husband, my father, and my brother did not survive.  To my way of thinking what's insensitive is bigotry disguised as concern for the feelings of those who have ties to the WTC disaster.  Actually, it's more than insensitive -- it's insulting.  Worse yet is bigotry disguised as patriotism, which should be abhorrent to everyone because it demeans our country and the citizenry as a whole.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

Jasonmh said:


> I admit I am alittle confused by the seeming 2 major sides in this thread, one promoting the Quran as entirely peaceful, and others with examples of how it is clearly not.
> When I see quotes from the book like this:
> "And the *Jews say*: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the *Christians say*: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; *may Allah destroy them*; how they are turned away!" "
> Sure doesn't seem that way to me.
> ...


I'm confused about that to - to a point. Like I said, I haven't read the Koran (or the Bible, or any other religious text), but don't they all have some some hate-filled passages in them? I've seen websites dedicated to finding all the violent and horrible messages of the Bible as well, but I don't think most people consider the Bible to have a terrible overall message. Usually people focus on the more positive, overarching themes. And I'm sure most Christians don't live by the more violent messages in there.


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## Jasonmh (May 7, 2009)

Jessica Billings said:


> I'm confused about that to - to a point. Like I said, I haven't read the Koran (or the Bible, or any other religious text), but don't they all have some some hate-filled passages in them? I've seen websites dedicated to finding all the violent and horrible messages of the Bible as well, but I don't think most people consider the Bible to have a terrible overall message. Usually people focus on the more positive, overarching themes. And I'm sure most Christians don't live by the more violent messages in there.


Certainly true, I don't disagree with you. But that is not what I was trying to get to, given almost any text one can always find something better and something worse. I am not comparing the Quran to any other text, I am wondering about the justification for when people say things like the Quran teaches tolerance when I can find time after time, hundreds of examples that are nowhere near tolerant. For what it is worth, I found the verse I quoted on BOTH anti-islam and pro-islam sites, but the pro islam sites offered no explaination as the the meaning (which to me seems pretty clear). I am not saying (and I didn't say in my post) that all or most muslums live by the violent messages in the Quran.
I have run into quite a few people lately who do not follow islam, but jump to its (and the Qurans) defense whenever someone has something bad to say about it. I agree that the bible also has some pretty violent passages, but if someone were to say that to me I wouldn't respnd with "no i doesn't"


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## Neo (Mar 30, 2009)

Jessica Billings said:


> I'm confused about that to - to a point. Like I said, I haven't read the Koran (or the Bible, or any other religious text), but don't they all have some some hate-filled passages in them? I've seen websites dedicated to finding all the violent and horrible messages of the Bible as well, but I don't think most people consider the Bible to have a terrible overall message. Usually people focus on the more positive, overarching themes. And I'm sure most Christians don't live by the more violent messages in there.


Thank you Jessica, I was just typing that too and could quote horribly intolerant stuff from the Bible in 2 seconds. But would that represent the message of the Bible? I truly believe that it is the overall message that needs to be considered. Every major religion has had extremists and fanatics who have sadly done horrible things at various moments of history, hiding/justifying their acts behind religious self-righteousness.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

Jasonmh said:


> Certainly true, I don't disagree with you. But that is not what I was trying to get to, given almost any text one can always find something better and something worse. I am not comparing the Quran to any other text, I am wondering about the justification for when people say things like the Quran teaches tolerance when I can find time after time, hundreds of examples that are nowhere near tolerant. For what it is worth, I found the verse I quoted on BOTH anti-islam and pro-islam sites, but the pro islam sites offered no explaination as the the meaning (which to me seems pretty clear). I am not saying (and I didn't say in my post) that all or most muslums live by the violent messages in the Quran.
> I have run into quite a few people lately who do not follow islam, but jump to its (and the Qurans) defense whenever someone has something bad to say about it. I agree that the bible also has some pretty violent passages, but if someone were to say that to me I wouldn't respnd with "no i doesn't"


Agreed on all accounts. I understand what you're saying now and I have some of the same questions myself. It's one of the reasons I steer away from the texts themselves and try to get to know the religion through friends and acquaintances instead. It's hard to apply an ancient, translated text to current life when our lifestyles and morals have changed so much from those times.


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## Jasonmh (May 7, 2009)

Neo said:


> Thank you Jessica, I was just typing that too and could quote horribly intolerant stuff from the Bible in 2 seconds. But would that represent the message of the Bible? I truly believe that it is the overall message that needs to be considered. Every major religion has had extremists and fanatics who have sadly done horrible things at various moments of history, hiding/justifying their acts behind religious self-righteousness.


Of course you could, I can think of quite a few things right now in the bible that are violent and do nothing to promote tolerance. But again, that doesn't have anything to do with what I posted.
I was trying to speak generally, but maybe what I am asking would be better asked directly to you:
You posted that the Quran as "nothing anti-whatever other religion in it". There have been aleast 2 direct quotes from the Quran posted that contradict what you said. So, assuming you are not Islamic (and I don't know you, maybe you are), what are your thoughts about the quotes that were posted? Do you not think that the quotes ARE anti-other religion?
I am just curious, and not trying to pick on you, which is why I was speaking generally in my other posts. I am not trying to promote that one religion is better than another. I am trying to keep an open mind and hear what others have to say.
btw - sorry for the speleing and formatting in some of my post, my browser if freaking out and jumping all over the place, making it vvvery hard to post"


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

LibbyD said:


> To those who have expressed concern about some thoughts and actions being "insensitive":
> 
> I am a survivor of 9/11. My husband, my father, and my brother did not survive. To my way of thinking what's insensitive is bigotry disguised as concern for the feelings of those who have ties to the WTC disaster. Actually, it's more than insensitive -- it's insulting. Worse yet is bigotry disguised as patriotism, which should be abhorrent to everyone because it demeans our country and the citizenry as a whole.


LiddyD, I'm sorry for your loss and I home your life has moved on to a better place. I lost a relative - but a cousin and not a parent/spouse/sibling so my heart goes out to you knowing what I feel is only so much more in your life.

Thank you for your words. I have numerous Muslim friends from multiple countries and I certainly understand the difference between religion and hatred.


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

LibbyD said:


> To those who have expressed concern about some thoughts and actions being "insensitive":
> 
> I am a survivor of 9/11. My husband, my father, and my brother did not survive. To my way of thinking what's insensitive is bigotry disguised as concern for the feelings of those who have ties to the WTC disaster. Actually, it's more than insensitive -- it's insulting. Worse yet is bigotry disguised as patriotism, which should be abhorrent to everyone because it demeans our country and the citizenry as a whole.


I also am sorry for you loss. At the same time, when you start throwing out accusations of bigotry simply because other people disagree with you over what is sensitive or not, you cross the line. It's unfortunate you choose to be insulted, because I intended no insult. I was simply stating that there are a lot of people who will find the organized book buying as insensitive as the book burning, and since that happens to be the reality of the situation, I'm not sure what you're objecting too. Then you wander on to "bigotry disguised as patriotism" and I have to wonder if you aren't just making a broad political attack in general. That kind of thing isn't necessary here. Nobody was trying to insult you, and your implied insults in return were uncalled for.


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## Jasonmh (May 7, 2009)

Jessica Billings said:


> ... It's hard to apply an ancient, translated text to current life when our lifestyles and morals have changed so much from those times.


That is very true.


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## Neo (Mar 30, 2009)

Jasonmh said:


> Certainly true, I don't disagree with you. But that is not what I was trying to get to, given almost any text one can always find something better and something worse. I am not comparing the Quran to any other text, I am wondering about the justification for when people say things like the Quran teaches tolerance when I can find time after time, hundreds of examples that are nowhere near tolerant. For what it is worth, I found the verse I quoted on BOTH anti-islam and pro-islam sites, but the pro islam sites offered no explaination as the the meaning (which to me seems pretty clear). I am not saying (and I didn't say in my post) that all or most muslums live by the violent messages in the Quran.
> I have run into quite a few people lately who do not follow islam, but jump to its (and the Qurans) defense whenever someone has something bad to say about it. I agree that the bible also has some pretty violent passages, but if someone were to say that to me I wouldn't respnd with "no i doesn't"


Sadly quotes seem to be more easily found on the negative sides. Here are a couple of quotes that show the other side:

"If anyone harms (others), God will harm him, and if anyone shows hostility to others, God will show hostility to him." Sunan of Abu-Dawood, Hadith 1625.
"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians...and (all) who believe in God and the last day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." The Qur'an, 2:62

But these are just quotes.

I totally see your point, and I guess what really bothers me is when people generalize and reduce a whole religion to the vues and interpretation of extremists, without even bothering to find out more.

Sorry, my computer is freaking out too, and keeps freezing, so by the time I manage to type a few lines, new replies keep popping up and I don't seem to be able to keep up.

So now I see your latest post while I have already typed all the above.

I am not muslim - nor christian or jewish, I am actually a-religious (does that exist?). What I mean is that I don't believe nor follow any religion. But I am interested in all religions, for social and cultural reasons. Not that it even matters.

When I read the Koran, the message I got from it was one of tolerance and humanity. From the whole book. Not bits and pieces collected by various people trying to make a point. I also understand that in this particular case, translation makes a huge difference, and I didn't read it in English.

But I truly think that you should see by yourself, and if it's something you are really interested in, read for yourself, and talk to people who actually practice islam, to make your own opinion. After all, who am I? This is how I see it and feel about it, someone else will argue the contrary - but those are just other people's opinions in the end.


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## Jasonmh (May 7, 2009)

Neo said:


> Sadly quotes seem to be more easily found on the negative sides. Here are a couple of quotes that show the other side: ...


Fair enough, thanks for taking the time to respond.


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## LibbyD (Apr 28, 2009)

D. Nathan Hilliard said:


> I also am sorry for you loss. At the same time, when you start throwing out accusations of bigotry simply because other people disagree with you over what is sensitive or not, you cross the line. It's unfortunate you choose to be insulted, because I intended no insult. I was simply stating that there are a lot of people who will find the organized book buying as insensitive as the book burning, and since that happens to be the reality of the situation, I'm not sure what you're objecting too. Then you wander on to "bigotry disguised as patriotism" and I have to wonder if you aren't just making a broad political attack in general. That kind of thing isn't necessary here. Nobody was trying to insult you, and your implied insults in return were uncalled for.


My comments were not aimed at you or anyone else here. I chose the word "insensitive" as my starting point only because it had been used several times. And I didn't "wander" anywhere. I was employing a rhetorical device in order to make a point, and I was making that point about society in general, not the few people who have expressed their thoughts in this Not Quite Kindle area.

You said you are not sure what I was objecting to, which is odd since you made a great many statements which suggest you think you know all about my attitude and intent. Either way - whether you don't know or whether you think you know - I will explain what I was objecting to. _I object to people using the tragedy of 9/11 to further their own agendas, to fuel animosity, and to attract the attention of the media._ Again, I am referring to others and not focusing on this forum.

It's unfortunate you felt you were being personally attacked. Only you can know why you would react in that way, but evidently you felt threatened and saw a need to take a few swings at me. It is said that the best defense is a good offense, and responding to me with accusations is an example of that as well as an example of the prevailing level of discourse in this country.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Remembering the losses on 9/11 and buying a Koran are not mutually exclusive. The choice, if people opt to do it, is to not hate a religion because of the actions of some and is in response to people who think that hatred and book-burning are the answers. I'm not going to place blame on a billion and a half people and I'm not going to align myself with those who think that's okay. 

As the saying goes, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. That's not the kind of Christian or the type of person that I choose to be. As a nation, we all mourned that day and people around the world of all faiths mourned with us. That is what I choose to remember. 

My condolences to those who suffered personal loss that day.


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## TJoseph (Sep 1, 2010)

Not all muslims are terrorists, but Islam is not a tolerant and peaceful religion as practiced in the world today.  I do not have to read the Koran or Qur'an to know that.  Muslim countries are governed by Sharia Law or "God's Law".  In Iran this past week, a woman has been lashed 99 times for adultery.  Her sentence of being stoned to death has been suspended after a global protest from western countries.  In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive, vote, or be seen in public with a male that is not a relative.  This is enforced by official religious police.  In Saudi Arabia, converting from Islam to another religion is against the law and carries the death penalty.  Practitioners of this peaceful and tolerant religion have brought us the concept of "honor killing".  If a woman's virtue  is compromised, male members of her family must kill her to preserve the honor of the family.


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## corkyb (Apr 25, 2009)

Libby,
I am so terribly sorry for your loss.  I hope that time has eased the pain a bit, but my own history tells me that it never goes away.  I applaud your message and thank you for posting it.  I, too, abhor people putting forth bigotry and hate in the name of patriotism.  We saw FAR too much of that under the Bush regime and I am hoping that Obama's tenure will temper some of that, but so far it seems to have backfired onto another race and culture.  I am a child of the 60's and I often wonder what happened to all my peers from that time to turn people into such hate mongers.  Yes, 9/11 changed our world and it is a scary place and Brendan Carroll's post makes me really afraid, but I have to live each day trying to be tolerant and trustful of views that are different than my own.  I have no other choice given my upbringing, my belief system and my hope for world peace.  
In my opinion, your post is the most important, meaningful one on this thread.  My heart reaches out to you on this national day of remembrance and mourning.
Paula


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## vikingwarrior22 (May 25, 2009)

Here's my take...I feel that this should be buy a Bible day to give to a muslim to read, not to convert them but to enlighten them ...and if we read a Koran treat it as it is... a set of guidelines concerning a reglion. I have strong feelings concerning what this reglion (Islam) and the radical parts instill in its followers...God Bless America and all of what it stands for...


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2010)

TJoseph said:


> Not all muslims are terrorists, but Islam is not a tolerant and peaceful religion as practiced in the world today. I do not have to read the Koran or Qur'an to know that. Muslim countries are governed by Sharia Law or "God's Law". In Iran this past week, a woman has been lashed 99 times for adultery. Her sentence of being stoned to death has been suspended after a global protest from western countries. In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive, vote, or be seen in public with a male that is not a relative. This is enforced by official religious police. In Saudi Arabia, converting from Islam to another religion is against the law and carries the death penalty. Practitioners of this peaceful and tolerant religion have brought us the concept of "honor killing". If a woman's virtue is compromised, male members of her family must kill her to preserve the honor of the family.


And we should all be thankful that the founding fathers had the sense to prevent Christianity from being the law of the land here. You say this as if the Christian church never engaged in atrocities. Have we forgotten the Inquisition? The Crusades? Government sanctioned slaughter in the name of the Christian god.

Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity. Think about the horrors Chiristianity was afflicting upon the world 600 years ago. Christianity was government ordained terrorism. Women were burned alive at the stake. Men were crushed under bolders or hanged. But eventually, it evolved.

Islam is now going thorugh this cycle. The question is, do we support those honest voices that wish to be peaceful and move the faith forward, or do we alientate them and label them all terrorists?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

TJoseph said:


> Practitioners of this peaceful and tolerant religion have brought us the concept of "honor killing". If a woman's virtue is compromised, male members of her family must kill her to preserve the honor of the family.


Just to point out, honor killing was only outlawed in Brazil in 1991 and hardly originated with Islam. The Old Testament mentions honor killings.

Hardly any of the restrictions against women mentioned in your post are uniquely Islamic, at least historically.

Betsy


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## G.L. Douglas (Jun 27, 2010)

I was only familiar with certain verses of the Quran. Here is a *topical* side-by-side comparison of the Quran and Biblical scripture that I found very interesting.

http://www.dianedew.com/islam.htm


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## Sandra Edwards (May 10, 2010)

Well, I've never been one of those people who thinks they know what's best for others...so, if somebody wants to buy a Koran today. whatever. Life's to short for me to stress out over what others are doing. As for me...I won't be buying a Koran today. Maybe another day. But not today.

Sandy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks for bring us back directly on topic, Sandra! 

Betsy


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2010)

G.L. Douglas said:


> I was only familiar with certain verses of the Quran. Here is a *topical* side-by-side comparison of the Quran and Biblical scripture that I found very interesting.
> 
> http://www.dianedew.com/islam.htm


Obviously written by someone promoting Christianity over Islam. Particularly under the section On Murder, Violence, War & Oppression. Nice how the author glossed over all of God's orders in the Bible to kill His enemies. And her section on "treatment of women" made me want to vomit. I'm not going to bother going through the Bible and pointing out the quotes. I'm not going to be the one to start the flame war. But frankly this woman's "comparison" is loaded to side with Christianity and is not done with honesty OR integrity. I am always amazed how such "good Christians" will always be quick to point out the negative verses in the books of other religion while ignoring the negative verses in their own. I'll simply end with this:

Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


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## Rizzi Elahi (Sep 11, 2010)

'The Message of the Qur'an' by Mohammad Asad.  This is by far the best translation and elucidation of the Qur'an.  I have read quite a few English and Urdu translations but nothing compares to it.  You should also read his autopbiography, 'Road to Mecca', a most inspiring book.


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## tecwritr (Oct 28, 2008)

When I was a teenager I read the Bible several times.  I was capable of quoting most of it.  That is no longer true.  Why? Because I realized that the bible was written by man NOT by God.  I'll religious documents who claim to be the word of God or Allah or Budda were written by men who claimed they were told to write them by their God. 

Throughout history interpretation of these books by man has led to religious wars, to burning of witches, to the Crusades, etc.  In this way the bible is no different than the Koran.  When people interpret them in a way that simply confirms their hatred for other groups of people bad things can happen.

Believe in God, believe in Allah, believe in Budda or believe we are simply a great experiment started millions of years ago by a being from another world.  But don't force your beliefs on others.  

In the end we are all human beings.


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## TJoseph (Sep 1, 2010)

bardsandsages said:


> And we should all be thankful that the founding fathers had the sense to prevent Christianity from being the law of the land here. You say this as if the Christian church never engaged in atrocities. Have we forgotten the Inquisition? The Crusades? Government sanctioned slaughter in the name of the Christian god.
> 
> Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity. Think about the horrors Chiristianity was afflicting upon the world 600 years ago. Christianity was government ordained terrorism. Women were burned alive at the stake. Men were crushed under bolders or hanged. But eventually, it evolved.
> 
> Islam is now going thorugh this cycle. The question is, do we support those honest voices that wish to be peaceful and move the faith forward, or do we alientate them and label them all terrorists?


You are mistaken. There is no state religion, but US law is firmly rooted in Judeo-Christian values. I am not Christian, but I was raised to believe in those values. You can't be serious about waiting 600 years for Islam to evolve to the point it can support basic human rights. Not even muslims believe in witchcraft today, but they still believe in stoning a sinner to death. In many muslim countries an entire class of people (women) have no rights at all. They are not even allowed to get an education. Why are such extreme human rights violations not okay in South Africa and China, but given a free pass in muslim countries? Because their religious leaders say it should be so and we wouldn't want to offend their religious sensibilities?


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## Tripp (May 28, 2009)

akpak, first let me say that I congratulate you on starting a post that created interesting discussion and commend everyone on KB that posted replies that were reasonably respectful.  This is a topic that could get heated very easily.

When I first read your post yesterday, I didn't have a very positive reaction and was puzzled as to why.  It had taken reading everyone's responses and thinking about it for the last day to finally understand why.

My take on it is that you were challenging everyone to buy the Koran to learn about the Muslim faith.  With knowledge comes understanding and knowledge is the antithesis of ignorance.  However, using the anniversary of the 9/11/01 tragedy seems a little political to me (even if that was not your intention).  I encourage anyone who has an interest in buying the Koran, Bible, Torah, or any other book of faith and would have no problem creating a "day" for it.  Just not today.

In my opinion, today is not the day to foster any religious or political point of view.  Rather, if one wants to mark it at all, I believe it should be the day to recognize the loss of those who died as a result of the events of 9/11/01.  This includes those  that continue forfeiting their lives in service to our country.

So, I will not be purchasing a Koran today.  Instead, I will hug my husband and sons and tell them how much I love them.  I will call my mother and siblings and let them know that even though they live so far away, I think of them everyday.  

I will practice my faith and pray for the souls of those who died as a result of 9/11/01.  I will ask that God forgives the ones that perpetrated the evil act of driving aircraft into the World Trade Towers, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania. 

I will also give thanks for the Constitution that protects everyone's right to have and state an opinion, buy a book, or post in a forum like this even if I may or may not agree with them.  

Tomorrow, next week, next year, I will continue to educate myself and work on becoming a better and more tolerant person.  Today, I will just remember.


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

bardsandsages said:


> And we should all be thankful that the founding fathers had the sense to prevent Christianity from being the law of the land here. You say this as if the Christian church never engaged in atrocities. Have we forgotten the Inquisition? The Crusades? Government sanctioned slaughter in the name of the Christian god.
> 
> Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity. Think about the horrors Chiristianity was afflicting upon the world 600 years ago. Christianity was government ordained terrorism. Women were burned alive at the stake. Men were crushed under bolders or hanged. But eventually, it evolved.
> 
> Islam is now going thorugh this cycle. The question is, do we support those honest voices that wish to be peaceful and move the faith forward, or do we alientate them and label them all terrorists?


MTE


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

tecwritr said:


> In the end we are all human beings.


In the end all we need is one rule/one law: The Golden Rule.


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## drenfrow (Jan 27, 2010)

I hesitated to even click on this thread because I thought it would be ugly, but I do appreciate how civil the exchange of ideas is given the emotions tied to the subject matter. A statement that really jumped out at me was:



D. Nathan Hilliard said:


> I was simply stating that there are a lot of people who will find the organized book buying as insensitive as the book burning...


I can't agree with equating the suggestions: 1) buy a book in order to expand your knowledge and understanding of something with 2) burn a book.

I applaud the sentiment behind the first suggestion although I fully understand a person's not being comfortable with doing it on 9/11. I could never agree to the second one and I would join the bucket brigade to put out the fire even if it was Mein Kampf. The thought of burning any book chills my soul.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm impressed we've gone 4 pages into this thread and it hasn't deteriorated. Thanks for the civil discussion - and, when a point here or there may have rubbed you the wrong way, not getting personal or all-caps about it. 

Politics, religion, and operating systems are the three areas that are quickest to get a thread locked here. It might still happen to this thread. But for now: so far, so good. 

-Harvey


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

I like the idea, just not the date for it.
At the very least it is useful to "know your enemy". And anyone who kills thousands of people is somebody's enemy.

We must understand Islam - which is the "state".  Islamists have always wished to see the entire world under a theocracy.  What religious group hasn't?  But they do want a return to the caliphate - look it up and understand.

Muslims believe in the Old Testament and the New Testament.  As shown in the verses already quoted.  They believe that Moses was a valid prophet of God and they also believe that Jesus was too.  They are angry with Christians for saying that Jesus was GodmadeMan rather than just a great prophet.  
And one needs to separate the Old Testament verses (a harsh God) from the New Testament (which is the new covenant between God and Man, fulfilling and replacing the Old).  Then you find the verses of (hate?) are real hard to find.

The Koran was written by a man who had love in his heart before he was driven out of Mecca and went to Medina.  When he returned he came with an army and killed people and more (not so nice) verses were written.  These two sets of verses are mixed (not chronological) in the Koran.  So we see some wonderful messages of love intermingled with some not so loving.  As has already been quoted.  

I believe that you will find these statements to be substantiated by most scholars.  This is not meant as a negative statement.  Just a quick analysis of the "holy text" you were referring to.  How one lives is ones own decision.  I would point out that many who practice the teachings from the Koran read it a lot and follow it strictly.  Praying 5-8 times per day, and practicing Sheria law - cutting off hands, and giving a woman 99 lashes and stoning women accused of adultery.  This is current practice not ancient happenings.

My Muslim friends are real neat people too.

Just sayin.....


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

TJoseph said:


> You are mistaken. There is no state religion, but US law is firmly rooted in Judeo-Christian values. I am not Christian, but I was raised to believe in those values. You can't be serious about waiting 600 years for Islam to evolve to the point it can support basic human rights. Not even muslims believe in witchcraft today, but they still believe in stoning a sinner to death. In many muslim countries an entire class of people (women) have no rights at all. They are not even allowed to get an education. Why are such extreme human rights violations not okay in South Africa and China, but given a free pass in muslim countries? Because their religious leaders say it should be so and we wouldn't want to offend their religious sensibilities?


To be fair, there are a number of predominately Muslim countries who have had female heads of state and more with females in Parliament. Not all Muslim nations abide by the same gender restrictions as others just like some Christian nations follow fewer religious rules than others.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Rizzi Elahi said:


> 'The Message of the Qur'an' by Mohammad Asad. This is by far the best translation and elucidation of the Qur'an. I have read quite a few English and Urdu translations but nothing compares to it. You should also read his autobiography, 'Road to Mecca', a most inspiring book.


For anyone interested, the Asad translation of the Qur'an is on Kindle:



Betsy


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## drenfrow (Jan 27, 2010)

Rizzi Elahi said:


> 'The Message of the Qur'an' by Mohammad Asad. This is by far the best translation and elucidation of the Qur'an. I have read quite a few English and Urdu translations but nothing compares to it. You should also read his autopbiography, 'Road to Mecca', a most inspiring book.





Betsy the Quilter said:


> For anyone interested, the Asad translation of the Qur'an is on Kindle:
> 
> 
> 
> Betsy


I was looking at the Kindle version and noticed these comments in the reviews:

"I love Muhammad Asad's translatiom of the Quran, but disappointed with the Kindle version. It is obvious that it wasn't formated for Kindle. The footnotes which in my opinion are an important part of this translation do not work and neither does the table of contents."

"The reason I gave this Kindle book 3 stars is simply because the most important part of the book (the footnote commentaries) is not included. However, for the price it is expected. In addition, the Arabic and transliterations are not included."

It sounds like this might be frustrating in the Kindle format.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks for checking that out, drenfrow..

Betsy


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

I'm not sure exactly why people are up in arms over this thread, but maybe it's just me. (And no, I'm not Muslim.)

If you want to buy a Koran, buy one. If not, don't. 

I'm curious enough to see if there are any free Mobi/PRC versions of the text available. If there are, I'll pass them along.

EDIT: I found one. I have no idea if it's the most accurate translation or what have you (someone else will have to chime in on that), but it's probably a good a place as any to start.

http://manybooks.net/titles/anonetext05koran09b.html


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2010)

TJoseph said:


> You can't be serious about waiting 600 years for Islam to evolve to the point it can support basic human rights.


Please go back and reread what I read. What I said was that are we going to side with those Muslims that want peace, or alienate every Muslim on the planet and turn them all into terrorists? Make a decision.



TJoseph said:


> Not even muslims believe in witchcraft today, but they still believe in stoning a sinner to death.


And you know the mind of every Muslim on the planet...how?



TJoseph said:


> In many muslim countries an entire class of people (women) have no rights at all. They are not even allowed to get an education. Why are such extreme human rights violations not okay in South Africa and China, but given a free pass in muslim countries? Because their religious leaders say it should be so and we wouldn't want to offend their religious sensibilities?


Who said it was right? You seem to be incapable of separating dictators who use religion as a weapon from the actual book itself. But that is your problem, not the general Muslim population. Maybe you didn't notice, but a lot of people in Iran protest against these things. Maybe you didn't notice, but in Afganistan the majority of the population wants the U.S. troops to make sure Al Queda DOESN'T reinstate its version of Islamic Law. Maybe you didn't notice, but as someone else pointed out, many Muslim nations have had a female leader, and we in the U.S. haven't managed to do that yet. Maybe you didn't notice, because you were too business making blanket judgements on an entire religion because of the actions of a few terrorists who disguise their evil behind a book you don't understand.

I don't blame all Christians for Timothy McVeigh, or the wackos that bombed abortion clinics, or the priests that sexually abused children, or that nutjob in Florida, or the idiot that protests at military funerals saying that dead soldiers are God's punishment for gays. I have enough sense to separate idiots from normal Christians. And I have enough sense to separate Muslims from their idiots too.


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

bardsandsages said:


> I don't blame all Christians for Timothy McVeigh,


Timothy McVeigh was a self proclaimed atheist who was quoted as saying "Science is my religion." It's curious how he keeps getting branded a "Christian" terrorist. I'm guessing it's because people unconsciously group him with the Branch Davidians that he was avenging. His attack on the Murray building was provoked by anti government sentiment, not religious.


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## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

Lots of quacks in any religion.  A group of ultra-orthodox (I believe) Jews just had a New Testament burning in Israel.  Jews must be evil, anti-Christian monsters.  An American preacher wanted to burn the Koran, .  Americans are evil, anti-Muslim monsters.  Some Muslims just burned the American flag.  Muslims are evil, anti-western monsters.  The IRA terrorists were Catholic.  Catholics are evil anti-Protestant monsters (as well as being Christian monsters, I suppose).  Certain Tele-evangelists have called out for, prayed for, the killing of people such as Hugo Chavez.  Christians following their religion?  More monsters, those evangelists?

The vast majority of Jews, Christians, Atheists, Muslims, etcetera, while holding on to their faith such as it is, want little more than to live comfortably and see their children do well, hopefully started on a better life than they themselves had.  Iran, which has a theocracy, has very low attendance at Friday prayer.  The US and Canada, which for the most part are Christian, have lots of near-empty churches at Sunday worship.  Many atheists use the expression "My God!" at times.  We are not monolithic societies; we are not defined by our religions

If we followed the biblical strictures, we'd be having a lot of stonings today, not to mention slave sales and a vast number of eyeless, toothless people.  The books of the Bible were written many centuries ago.  I've read it through twice.  It has a goodly number of hateful passages in it, which I have no intention of bringing forward.  I haven't read the Koran, but I assume you'll be able to find the same.  Christians pick out the good spots in their religious books, as do Jews and as do Muslims, etc.  Judging the Christian faith by looking at the Bible is as fallacious as judging the Muslim faith by looking at the Koran.  Oh, yeah, fanatics pick and choose their bits as well.  But the fanatics pick their bits in order to pervert their religions, to give them backing they wouldn't otherwise have.

I see no harm in reading the Koran, or buying it, on any day of the year.  It is not disrespectful.  Talking about buying the Koran on September 11th is as disgusting as talking about going to a Japanese Sushi restaurant on Dec 7th.  Let's have no eating of bratwurst on Aug 20th--Hitler's birthday.  And I'm sure we could fill the calendar with other dates where it is anti-something to do something else.

Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men
doesn't try to force issues
or defeat enemies by force of arms.
For every force there is a counterforce.
Violence, even well intentioned,
always rebounds upon oneself.

Lao Tsu


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

The insensitivity of some people is truly amazing.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff said:


> The insensitivity of some people is truly amazing.


As is the caring and consideration of others. . . . . . .


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## Laurie (Jan 9, 2009)

LibbyD said:


> _I object to people using the tragedy of 9/11 to further their own agendas, ..._


Isn't that the purpose of this thread? Just saying...

I'm not taking a stand for either side of this debate. Yes I have an opinion, but it's not one I choose to debate and I respect everyone else's opinion to think what they want. But the above quote struck me as ironic, given the nature of why this thread was started. The date should not be used to promote anything - no exceptions, including this. It's just a date that should be remembered and respected.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

The equivocation of Islam to religions like Christianity and Judiasm just doesn't wash. Many people like to point out that there are kooks in every religion, and bring up examples of abortion clinic bombings, and 'violent' passages in the bible. Or they talk about the inquisition, crusades, and other events that happened centuries ago.

Radical islamists are murdering people in the name of their religion on a daily basis throughout the world. I've heard numbers from 7% to 36% of all muslims are radical. With 1.2 billion muslims in the world, even the low number leaves you with 84 million radical islamists. That a lot of angry people.

Here's a website that keeps track of radical islamic violence, and here's a list of people killed by radical islamists just THIS MONTH:


```
Date Country City Killed Injured Description 
2010.09.10 Dagestan Makhachkala 1 0 An off-duty cop is gunned down at his father's home by Islamic radicals. 
2010.09.10 Ingushetia Nazran 1 0 Muslim separatists shoot a man to death outside an auto repair shop. 
2010.09.09 Iraq Diyala 1 0 A woman is beheaded in her own home by suspected al-Qaeda 'insurgents'. 
2010.09.09 Pakistan Quetta 5 4 A suicide bomber detonates inside an official's home, taking five lives. 
2010.09.09 Iraq Muqdadiya 1 1 A cleric is beheaded and set on fire by Freedom Fighters. 
2010.09.09 Pakistan Kurram 10 4 Militants murder ten bus passengers with an explosive device. 
2010.09.09 Somalia Mogadishu 9 3 Five Fedayeen suicide bombers storm an airport and kill nine others, including two women. 
2010.09.09 Russia Vladikavkaz 17 123 A Shahid drives an explosives-laden vehicle into a market, blasting seventeen shoppers to bits. 
2010.09.09 Thailand Yala 1 0 Muslim separatists shoot a 52-year-old Buddhist in the head then kick his body under a bridge. 
2010.09.09 Pakistan Khyber 3 0 Three laborers working in a forest are abducted and murdered by Tehreek-e-Taliban. 
2010.09.09 Iraq Baghdad 2 2 Two people are reportedly killed when gunmen open fire on an Anglican church in an incident tied to a threatened Quran burning. 
2010.09.09 Yemen Moudia 3 4 al-Qaeda assault a military checkpoint, killing three Yemenis. 
2010.09.08 Nigeria Bauchi 4 8 Boko Haram Islamists assault a prison, killing two employees and two civilians. 
2010.09.08 Pakistan Khyber 4 0 Four political activists are shot to death by suspected Taliban. 
2010.09.07 Pakistan Punjab 2 0 Terrorists murder a man and his nephew. 
2010.09.07 Iraq Baghdad 1 0 A TV anchor who tried to end sectarian violence is shot outside his home by a sectarian faction. 
2010.09.07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A young Buddhist is gunned down in an Muslim drive-by attack. 
2010.09.07 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Two middle aged Buddhist teachers, husband and wife, are murdered by Islamic radicals. 
2010.09.07 Iraq Mosul 1 0 A woman is shot to death by Muslim terrorists. 
2010.09.07 Iraq Baghdad 2 6 Mujahid manage to take down two Iraqis with a roadside bomb. 
2010.09.07 Russia Baksanenok 1 0 Suspected Islamists assassinate a judge. 
2010.09.07 Iraq Samarra 3 0 A married couple are among three family members slain in their home by Sunni gunmen. 
2010.09.07 Pakistan Hangu 1 2 A police officer succumbs to injury after clinging to life for a few days following an Islamist bombing. 
2010.09.06 Pakistan Kohat 21 40 Women and children are most of the two dozen victims in a powerful suicide blast on their residential compound. 
2010.09.06 Iraq Samarra 5 0 Five construction workers building a youth center are stabbed and shot to death in a barbaric Mujahideen attack. 
2010.09.06 Pakistan Lakki Marwat 19 46 Nine schoolchildren are among nineteen innocent lives snuffed out by Holy Warrior suicide bombers. 
2010.09.06 Pakistan Quetta 1 0 The body of a lawyer is found riddled with bullets six weeks after his abduction. 
2010.09.06 Thailand Pattani 2 0 A janitor is among two civilians assassinated by Muslim gunmen in separate attacks. 
2010.09.06 Afghanistan Paktika 3 5 Freedom fighters shoot three children to death. 
2010.09.06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A middle-aged woman is shot to death by Mujahid while walking home. 
2010.09.06 Afghanistan Kabul 1 0 A 45-year-old news anchor is the target of a 'brutal beheading' near his home. 
2010.09.06 Tajikistan Dushanbe 0 7 Fundamentalists toss a bomb into a disco. 
2010.09.06 Algeria Skikda 3 2 al-Qaeda murder three local cops with a roadside bomb. 
2010.09.06 Afghanistan Baghlan 2 0 The Taliban kill a district governor and his bodyguard in an ambush. 
2010.09.06 Algeria Tebessa 2 0 Fundamentalists kill two local security personnel with a bomb. 
2010.09.05 Yemen Abyan 3 0 Three people are shot to death in an al-Qaeda ambush. 
2010.09.05 Pakistan Punjab 1 0 An oil rig driver is killed by Islamic snipers. 
2010.09.05 Dagestan Buinaksk 5 36 A Shahid suicide car bomber sends five other souls to Allah. 
2010.09.05 Iraq Baghdad 12 36 Six Fedayeen attack a government building, killing a dozen Iraqis. 
2010.09.05 Nigeria Borno 2 4 A trader is among two men shot to death by Boko Haram Islamists. 
2010.09.04 Pakistan Sindh 2 0 The wife and nephew of a police officer are murdered by suspected radicals. 
2010.09.04 Thailand Pattani 1 1 Islamist open fire on two civilians riding a motorcycle, killing one. 
2010.09.04 Afghanistan Ghazni 1 0 Sunni extremists behead a Shia businessman. 
2010.09.04 Afghanistan Kandahar 3 11 Three civilians including a child are blown to bits by a Fedayeen martyr. 
2010.09.04 Dagestan Makhachkala 1 3 Terrorists manage to kill one person with a car bomb. 
2010.09.04 Aghanistan Faryab 3 5 Three local cops are exterminated in a brutal ambush. 
2010.09.04 Afghanistan Kunduz 7 17 A child is among seven murdered by a Shahid suicide bomber outside a butcher shop. 
2010.09.03 Iraq Baghdad 4 4 Four Iraqis are shot or blown up around the country by Mujahideen. 
2010.09.03 Tajikistan Khujand 2 25 A suicide bomber injures twenty-five and kills 2. 
2010.09.03 Pakistan Mardan 1 2 A Sunni suicide bomber detonates at an Ahmadiyya (minority sect) mosque, killing one. 
2010.09.03 Pakistan Quetta 73 149 Over sixty innocents are slaughtered when a suicide bomber targets a Shia procession. 
2010.09.03 Azerbaijan Gumbashly 1 1 One dead as a 'religious dispute' between mosque members results in gunfire. 
2010.09.03 Iraq Mosul 1 0 An imam is gunned down outside his mosque by Religion of Peace rivals. 
2010.09.03 Pakistan Peshawar 1 3 Muslim militants slay a local cop with a roadside bomber. 
2010.09.03 Somalia Galgala 5 0 At least five Puntland soliders are killed in an ambush by Islamic militants. 
2010.09.02 Pakistan Turbat 2 8 Sunni gunmen open fire on a bus full of Shia pilgrims, killing at least two. 
2010.09.02 Sudan Tabra 74 79 Janjiweed militia on camels sweep through a market and slaughter over seventy people, including eighteen children. 
2010.09.02 Pakistan Bajaur 1 2 A female teacher is shot to death by Holy Warriors. 
2010.09.02 Pakistan Kyber 1 0 Mujahideen kidnap and brutally murder a taxi driver returning from a friend's funeral. 
2010.09.02 Iraq Baghdad 2 0 A taxi driver and senior education ministry official are gunned down in separate attacks. 
2010.09.02 Iraq Baiji 2 5 Suspected al-Qaeda shoot two opponents to death. 
2010.09.02 Thailand Pattani 1 1 A 35-year-old man is murdered in an Islamist drive-by. 
2010.09.01 Thailand Pattani 2 0 A Buddhist couple in their 50's are brutally murdered by Jihadi gunmen. 
2010.09.01 Afghanistan Helmand 0 15 Fifteen people at a market are badly injured, many with limbs torn from their bodies, by a Taliban blast. 
2010.09.01 Pakistan Lahore 43 270 Over thirty Shia pilgrims in a procession are dismantled by a car bomb blast and two Sunni suicide bombers. 
2010.09.01 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 2 Two Afghans are blown to bits by a Taliban bomb hidden on a motorcycle. 
2010.09.01 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 49-year-old security worker is shot to death as he is riding home from work. 
2010.09.01 Algeria Boumerdes 2 26 A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills two local soldiers and injures dozens more. 
2010.09.01 Pakistan Karachi 1 0 A young mother is burned to death by her in-laws in a suspected honor killing. 
2010.09.01 Israel Samaria 0 2 A rabbi and his wife are shot by Palestinian terrorists while riding in their car. 
2010.09.01 Iraq Mosul 3 6 A woman is among three Iraqis taken down by a Jihadi bombing and shooting attack.
```
Now, I'm not saying that all Muslims are radical, but there is obviously a problem going on in the religion, and to equivocate it with Christianity is a joke. If you disagree with that, then start listing the killings going on by radical christians, and we'll do a comparison.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> As is the caring and consideration of others. . . . . . .


Yes. Thankfully there are many who fit that category.


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

Swolf, you pulled that from an anti-Islamic website.  Not good.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

mlewis78 said:


> Swolf, you pulled that from an anti-Islamic website. Not good.


It's an anti radical islamic website. Aren't we all anti radical islamists here?

And are they lying about the killings?


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

This thread was about the Koran.  The website is anti-Islamic.


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## TJoseph (Sep 1, 2010)

mlewis78 said:


> This thread was about the Koran. The website is anti-Islamic.


No, this thread was about buying a Koran on 9/11. That is the anniversary and a day of remembrance of a radical islamic terrorist attack on US soil that killed 3000 people and brought down the World Trade Center. It is difficult to discuss the events of 9/11 without discussing radical islamic terrorist attacks and most civil human beings would be opposed to those attacks or "anti-radical islamic terrorists".


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

But the Koran is not specific to terrrorists.


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## TJoseph (Sep 1, 2010)

mlewis78 said:


> But the Koran is not specific to terrrorists.


I agree that the Koran is not, but the 9/11 part of the title is specific to terrorists.


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## akpak (Mar 5, 2009)

I have no agenda. I was merely pointing out a counter-movement to the "burn the Koran" day. 

I do believe that a significant number of Americans purchasing the Islam holy text on the anniversary of a tragic terrorist attack would send a message that all Americans are not irrationally afraid of all Muslims/Islam. 

I happen to believe that the 9/11 terrorists achieved their goal: To make America quake in fear of Islam, give in to that fear by giving up a huge number of personal freedoms, and continue to let our lives be ordered and affected by the actions of a few extremists.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

I know that your intentions are the best kind.

But...
I would point out that there never was a "Burn the Koran Day". One scrawny pastor of a tiny church got far too much publicity for saying that HE would burn a copy on a given day.  No movement here.

You did actually call for a "buy a Koran day".  So there was an attempt to start a movement here.

I suspect that a few hundred copies of the book purchased would not send a message to anyone anywhere.
And I also suspect that the radical Imams in foreign lands are not hovering over their computers to see if Koran purchases have gone up or down.

I do agree that it is a good idea to read (ala comparative religion courses) and be familiar with the books that are the foundation for the faith-systems that major world populations adhere to and practice.
And I also agree that the terrorists accomplished their goal. They created terror.  They killed people. They spilled blood. They caused us to ground every plane in the country (consider the cost).  They got our government to attack a country with a majority population of Islamic believers that was, at that time, controlled by the Taliban (a radical group) and that was hosting terrorist training sites.  But it cost us to attack Afghanistan (and later Iraq) and it cost us international good will (and we were the good guys who had been harmed).  And it cost us the good will of some of our own citizens who are more concerned with this action than the actions of 9/11. So yes, they got what they wanted.  And at a cheap price for the leaders who sent the few terrorists to the U.S..

So you and I are in agreement.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)




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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

Ha, they had a singlemuslim.com ad on page three... that was funny.


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## R. M. Reed (Nov 11, 2009)

While scanning down the page, for a second I thought this thread was "Buy a Korean Day."


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## Addie (Jun 10, 2009)

R. Reed said:


> While scanning down the page, for a second I thought this thread was "Buy a Korean Day."


 I am not for sale! Although, since I'm only half Korean, I suppose I would be 50% off.


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## corkyb (Apr 25, 2009)

Brendan Carroll said:


>


I love this song. I think I have every version every sung in my itunes.


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## 4Katie (Jun 27, 2009)

The Jeff Buckley version was my favorite - until I heard k. d. lang sing it at the 2010 Winter Olympics. Just... wow. One of those times I've been seriously moved by a song.


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

R. Reed said:


> While scanning down the page, for a second I thought this thread was "Buy a Korean Day."


*Stands and applauds*


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## ReeseReed (Dec 5, 2009)

If anyone is interested in learning more about different faiths, there's a really good book on amazon that gives a basic outline of differing faiths and their beliefs. It's been several years since I read it, but I remember it being very eye-opening and helping me gain a better understanding of faiths other than my own. 


I will say that I am a Christian, and many of the books I read have a Christian-bent about them. At the moment I can't remember any bias being in this particular book, but you may want to check the sample carefully just to be sure.

ETA: I just scrolled down the page and looked, and this one is listed under "Christianity", so there's a very good chance there is plenty of Christian-bias included. Just a warning to those of other faiths who may pick this one up.


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## fastdogs (Jun 12, 2009)

Geoffthomas, great post.
vickie


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## Laurie (Jan 9, 2009)

ReeseReed said:


> If anyone is interested in learning more about different faiths, there's a really good book on amazon that gives a basic outline of differing faiths and their beliefs. It's been several years since I read it, but I remember it being very eye-opening and helping me gain a better understanding of faiths other than my own.
> 
> I will say that I am a Christian, and many of the books I read have a Christian-bent about them. At the moment I can't remember any bias being in this particular book, but you may want to check the sample carefully just to be sure.
> 
> ETA: I just scrolled down the page and looked, and this one is listed under "Christianity", so there's a very good chance there is plenty of Christian-bias included. Just a warning to those of other faiths who may pick this one up.


Thanks for the link. I grabbed a sample.


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