# First Novel Writers' Dilemma: the necessity of morphing into a carnival barker?



## Cody Kelly (Aug 27, 2013)

I imagine many writers face this dilemma: you have created a book. You are (at least relatively) satisfied with it. You are not rich and you have no "connections." You are not on the inside track of Culture Merchantry. How do you rise above the Cosmic Slush Pile, whether at kindle or an agent's office?

And, like so many artists and writers, self-promotion, hustling your book, carnival barking, and all go against your very genetic make-up, which is to not obnoxiously push yourself on people. 

And it does not appear to matter whether your book is good, bad, or anything along the grey scale in between: what matters is raw salesmanship.

What are your thoughts on this terrible tragedy?


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Cody Kelly said:


> What are your thoughts on this terrible tragedy?


That it's a non-tragedy.

If you aren't interested in promotion, don't do it. Start writing the next book instead. Repeat this cycle until something catches on. It's a perfectly viable path to success. Lots of "overnight" successes are 10 years in the making--so you've got a while to go before declaring success or failure if you just finished your first book.

You are mistaken about raw salesmanship being the only/primary thing that matters, though it certainly doesn't hurt.

Your book may or may not sell whether you don't promote at all, or you're a killer salesman. No one promised you (or me, or any of us) a career in publishing at all, but it's nearly always a marathon rather than a sprint if you luck into one.


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## Thomas Watson (Mar 8, 2012)

Agree with J. Tanner. It's neither a tragedy nor a dilemma, it's just the nature of this business. The way I look at it, a combination of writing the next book (and the next) and a moderate amount of self promotion is probably the most practical approach. You don't need to knock yourself out or play the shill. Go places online, like this one or Goodreads, and post about your book where it's permitted. Then join the discussions elsewhere on such sites. Make yourself known, talk to people, and stay within the rules for author participation. It actually makes a pleasant break from writing.


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## RJ Kennett (Jul 31, 2013)

Cody Kelly said:


> I imagine many writers face this dilemma: you have created a book. You are (at least relatively) satisfied with it. You are not rich and you have no "connections." You are not on the inside track of Culture Merchantry. How do you rise above the Cosmic Slush Pile, whether at kindle or an agent's office?
> 
> And, like so many artists and writers, self-promotion, hustling your book, carnival barking, and all go against your very genetic make-up, which is to not obnoxiously push yourself on people.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's necessary to be something of a carnival barker. And like a carnival barker, 99% of the people will ignore you. But you need that 1% that listens and gives you a chance. You have to respect their time by providing something that will knock their socks off - so quality IS paramount. Coming from a marketing background, I'm comfortable with the tools available, the strategies, etc. But I'm uncomfortable marketing _myself_. I'm used to being paid to market other people, or their products. It's more nerve wracking when I'm the brand and my baby is the product.

You have to choose your target audience and find ways to reach them, at least to get the ball rolling. Save up some money and throw it at a narrowly-targeted audience. A lot of this promotion stuff is trial and error, so you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.

Personally, I've found Twitter to be a dud. Now, with a mere 50 followers, I expect MY tweets to die empty deaths. But I've had others tweet on my behalf to thousands, and while there's an occasional retweet or favorite, they don't appear to do anything for sales. Not enough to show on the radar, anyway. I'll still do it, because it costs nothing but a few minutes of my time every few days.

Facebook has worked for me, at least to a degree. You can target specific Facebook groups. There are genre-specific fan groups, groups for writers and readers.

Using KDP free days, if you're in KDP Select, may or may not work. It seems to work well for some people, to get their book shotgunned out to a wide group of people, some of whom will actually read it and may talk it up (especially if that quality thing is there.) Myself, I have no intention of giving away my hard work. Now, there could be something that changes my perspective on that, but that's where I am now. I'll take the long view and be patient.

Pricing strategy may also help. On the advice of some fine folks here at KBoards, I'm keeping my price higher than the "Cosmic Slush Pile" you mentioned, which may provide separation from the chaff. Subconsciously, price = quality (but to get people to spread the word, I have to DELIVER on that quality. Remember when I said quality is paramount? I meant it.) I ran my book at $2.99 for two weeks after release, then ramped it up to $4.99 and sales only increased.

Google AdWords was a bust, but a cheap one. I hit a deal where if I spent $25 on AdWords, Google would credit my account another $100. I've burned through it all, and there's been exactly zero evidence of AdWords increasing my sales, despite ample clickthroughs.

Publicity articles placed on blogs may or may not impact sales, but at least they provide added material for search engines and therefore, credibility outside of Amazon.

Inexpensive advertising is available, if you target it. I wrote a zombie apocalypse novel, so I put together an ad to run on a zombie-themed online game I play, urbandead.com. There's not a lot of people playing it these days, but it reached a few thousand. I can't say whether many people there bought the book (though I know some did), but at least it was exposure.

But it *absolutely* matters whether the book is good or bad. A bad book will _always_ be bad and could taint your brand for future endeavors. A good book may be overlooked, but will take on a life of its own once it _is_ discovered, even if it takes months or years.

An eye-catching cover and a concise, sales-oriented blurb are vital. They speak to the quality the reader can expect. They get people to read the sample, and if the sample is good enough, they'll buy. I have anecdotal evidence of that working.

As an unknown, first-time author, however, the main thing I'm after is reviews. The more reviews, the more credibility is built. I've only got 7, and I'm always begging people for more. Obviously, begging isn't working as I have so few. But I'll keep working at it. There are several more reviews that should be showing up soon, as I've gifted the book to some reviewers, but many of them have months-long backlogs before they'll get to mine - some as long as a year. That's fine; I'll gift copies for reviews. I get 70% back and it counts as a sale.

The long and short of it is, there _is_ no magic bullet. If there were, everyone would do it. I've taken almost a month off from writing, just to try and get the ball rolling on my first novel. Then I'm going to forget it's there and focus on book #2, and let my novel sink or swim on its own. I might juice it with an ad once in a while, but mostly I'll leave it to word of mouth. (Cool story: my niece was talking to a friend, who recommended my book, not knowing my connection to her. It was a very cool feeling when I found out, as it personalized my work.)


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## RJ Kennett (Jul 31, 2013)

dang, that was a long post.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Yep, my thoughts upon finishing one book is to write the next.

And this isn't new with indie publishing. It's as old as writing: Write it, finish it, put it on the market. Repeat.

When you have several books in the same genre (or better yet, the same series) then it might be worth doing some marketing, as any sales you get will sell the other books too. But with one book? Forget it. It's like trying to bust down a dam with a hammer.

Camille


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## KellyHarper (Jul 29, 2012)

Thankfully, this arduous task can be outsourced to your second, third, and even all, subsequent books. Let them do the heavy lifting while you keep writing.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

I agree with the others. It's not a tragedy. On the contrary, it's an opportunity.



Cody Kelly said:


> And it does not appear to matter whether your book is good, bad, or anything along the grey scale in between: what matters is raw salesmanship.


This might be true in traditional publishing where you have to "pitch" and "sell" to agents in 60 seconds or less in "elevator pitches" or maybe 5-10 minutes at conferences if you had an appointment. I have heard of newbie writers hiring other authors to write their synopses and one sheets for them in the hope that they will catch the eye of agents. They have one shot at conventions, one shot at cold queries, one shot. And most fail. Someone told me that some agencies reject almost all the queries they receive, preferring to bank on tried authors.

In indie publishing, it's all different. The gatekeepers (agents) and middlemen (traditional publishing houses) are gone. Now it's just between the writer and readers. Write your best books, and let the chips fall where they may. Success might not necessarily be measured in sales. It might be intangible for some. But indie publishing is where the long tail is. This is one of the many reasons for my going indie.



rjkennett said:


> But it *absolutely* matters whether the book is good or bad. A bad book will _always_ be bad and could taint your brand for future endeavors. A good book may be overlooked, but will take on a life of its own once it _is_ discovered, even if it takes months or years.


I agree. As a reader, I go for a good book, and sometimes only discover the author years later. Bad books leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I move on from the author.









http://pinterest.com/pin/353884483190155484/


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)




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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

If you feel like a hawker, then you're doing it wrong.

Using Twitter and Facebook as megaphones not only doesn't work, it annoys the crap out of everyone.

If you think you should be selling your book, you're doing it wrong. The product, in the promoting game, is you, not a single book. You want people to recommend your name, not your specific book, to others. You are the brand.

You do this by writing more books and by being engaging and involved on social media, not by spamming.


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## Cody Kelly (Aug 27, 2013)

It's interesting: the people who have responded to this thread so far are all gung-ho, die-hard optimists. The cream (and everyone believes in their novel, by definition, or why hassle anything?) must inevitably rise to the top ...

I read an interesting comment by poet Charles Bukowski's once -- something to the effect that many (most?) good writers give up eventually. Largely in the face of indifference. He was as cynical as Hell but he stumbled onward, banging away on his typewriter.

The people commenting here are full of optimism, and vigor. It's definitely an "attitude" you folks have. I think, actually, that it is "hope" that keeps us all going. You apparently haven't had it beaten out of you yet. Perhaps there is something intrinsic to these Kindle talk boards -- with billions of names and chatter -- that gives folks the illusion that "success" is right around the corner. 

It's the American work ethic, isn't it? -- keep on working, working, working, working and good things will happen. But there is an central problem: there is only so much time in the world and every contributor the Kindle system is a competitor for that time and for that audience.

Isn't it a giant pyramid? Whether by genuine quality work or by simple hustling, a few rise and the masses remain the stepping stone, the backdrop, for them.

But my own sense is that self-promotion is intrinsically distasteful. I see that commentary here, for the most part, doesn't identify with that position.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Study the successful authors in your genre. See what they do and mimic them. Odds are they are not carnival barkers. (I've only seen one successful carnival barker and well...he's not around here anymore. He got kicked off for being a carnival barker.)


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm not American.

There is nothing gung-ho about quietly releasing books, doing what we love and quietly engaging with people who like to read our fiction.

There is no such thing as an overnight success.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Cody Kelly said:


> But there is an central problem: there is only so much time in the world and every contributor the Kindle system is a competitor for that time and for that audience.


How many people do you know that read a book, like it, and then never read another similar book again?

"Hmm, Hunger Games was great! Guess that's all the dystopian novels I'm going to read. Nothing else could be as good."

Sorry, but that doesn't happen. Other books are not your competitors. They are stepping stones to lead readers to your book. IF your book looks similar to another one that they've read and enjoyed, they are going to be MORE likely to buy yours and try it out.

Just look at the slew of books that are coming out now that LOOK like 50 shades. They are selling WELL. It's marketing. Don't look at other books as your competition, or you might as well give up now because with that attitude you'll get nowhere.

Sorry, that ended snarky. Didn't mean it. I'm just tired of indies looking at other indies as competition - and then you've got sock puppet accounts that give each other bad reviews to try to take down the competition. It's stupid. No one reads just one book.

/rant


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

Cody Kelly said:


> It's interesting: the people who have responded to this thread so far are all gung-ho, die-hard optimists. The cream (and everyone believes in their novel, by definition, or why hassle anything?) must inevitably rise to the top ...


Actually, several of the people who responded are immensely successful at self-publishing. I'm guessing a few of them tried the carnival barking and found it didn't really work. I didn't find it worked well at all for fiction. Maybe if you write non-fiction. And I will point out that nearly all the writing self-help authors who claim that's what you need are non-fiction authors, and they generalize for fiction without having self-published in it.

My sales tripled when I released my second book. The write, release, repeat method works, without heavy marketing. Amazon (and other platforms to a lesser extent) set up the algorithms to favor repeat authors, or that's how it seems.


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## RJ Kennett (Jul 31, 2013)

Victorine said:


> Don't look at other books as your competition, or you might as well give up now because with that attitude you'll get nowhere.


This. When I was writing my novel, I read a LOT of other indie author's work. At the end of my book, in the "From the Author" bit, I listed some of the authors I enjoyed the most, encouraging my readers to check out their work. They're not my competition; they're my compatriots. Maybe they'll do the same for me one day, maybe not. It's not a quid-pro-quo, I just felt like sharing some of those who earned my stamp of approval.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> And, like so many artists and writers, self-promotion, hustling your book, carnival barking, and all go against your very genetic make-up, which is to not obnoxiously push yourself on people.


I have no reason to believe writers are any different from the rest of the folks. Writers are just as smart as anyone else and can figure out how to interact with out being obnoxious and pushy.



> And it does not appear to matter whether your book is good, bad, or anything along the grey scale in between: what matters is raw salesmanship.


That is a comforting idea some writers like to push. But one has to have a product before selling it. The notion that the book doesnt matter is unfounded.



> What are your thoughts on this terrible tragedy?


I think its bogus.



> I read an interesting comment by poet Charles Bukowski's once -- something to the effect that many (most?) good writers give up eventually. Largely in the face of indifference. He was as cynical as Hell but he stumbled onward, banging away on his typewriter.


How would he know?



> But my own sense is that self-promotion is intrinsically distasteful. I see that commentary here, for the most part, doesn't identify with that position.


Fine. Don't do it.



> Other books are not your competitors.


Books compete with other books, not people. Books compete regardless of what the author thinks. Books compete if the author is dead. Doesnt matter what the author thinks. As long as two products are in the same market, they compete.


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## Saffron (May 22, 2013)

Some really helpful advice on this thread. Thanks everyone.

I'm not in favour of carnival barking.

The bottom line is you need some personal motivation for writing fiction. You need to get a kick out of doing it, a buzz from the creative process. If you are doing it only for the money, then there are easier ways to make a fast buck. I'm not saying we don't want the money, but you have to be motivated to write, or to play music, or to go on stage, or to create art. You get my drift.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Cody Kelly said:


> It's interesting: the people who have responded to this thread so far are all gung-ho, die-hard optimists. The cream (and everyone believes in their novel, by definition, or why hassle anything?) must inevitably rise to the top ...
> 
> But my own sense is that self-promotion is intrinsically distasteful. I see that commentary here, for the most part, doesn't identify with that position.


Dude, I don't think you read ANYTHING anybody has said, or maybe you just didn't understand it.

First -- most of the people are not giving you pie-in-the-sky advice, but hardened professional advice. Also, folks are telling you NOT to indulge in self-promotion and carnival barking.

Stop messing around with stuff you don't want to do and get back to writing. That's the professional way and always has been.

Camille


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

As someone who hopes to be in your shoes someday soon, OP, I wouldn't _dream_ of spending time on marketing or promotions with only one book published. As wiser and more handsome posters than I have already told you, simply write the next book. And the next one. And the next one. And the one after that.

If you spend that time writing another book, you double the royalties that might come your way from every pair of eyeballs you reach. The payout from any future marketing become more potent. Not only that, but the book itself will help you become more visible. You've got twice as many ways to be found, and you get another shot at being featured in all of the adverts that only show new releases. You've created one more product that can draw royalties from now until the end of time. You've made any marketing that you do down the road much more effective, simply because it can lead to more sales per reader.

I'll agree with you that the cream rises to the top, though. Be that cream. The cream fears no competition, but only readers who have run out of products to purchase.

There may come a day when marketing yourself and your work will pay worthy dividends, but it is not this day. This day, you write. By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, we bid you: write.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm in Thailand writing a series of books.......a common phrases you hear in this country is "Don't think too much". 

The national phrase in Thailand (if such a category exists) is "Mai bpen rai", which means "don't worry/ don't worry about it".  

So Cody, just get on with writing, don't think too much and mai bpen rai. 

In many ways Thais are extraordinarily wise, in others, they do my head in. That's why I'm writing books about them. 

Just sayin', just in case your wondering.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

This is version 2,302 of this topic.

May I direct the OP to version 2,301?

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,159708.msg2295900.html


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Study the successful authors in your genre. See what they do and mimic them. Odds are they are not carnival barkers. (I've only seen one successful carnival barker and well...he's not around here anymore. He got kicked off for being a carnival barker.)


Better yet, buy Vicki's "Success Selling eBooks!" You'll learn how to do it the right way...

< / barking >


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Cody Kelly said:


> It's interesting: the people who have responded to this thread so far are all gung-ho, die-hard optimists. The cream (and everyone believes in their novel, by definition, or why hassle anything?) must inevitably rise to the top ...


We may have read the same posts but we sure didn't get the same thing out of them...

This is nonsense. Some cream rises, and some sinks. And a bit of crap rises, and most sinks. But the kind of blatant self-promo you find distasteful doesn't correlate strongly with any of those four possibilities. It's not even typically recommended by those who've been successful. It's myth as far as I can tell.



> It's the American work ethic, isn't it? -- keep on working, working, working, working and good things will happen.


I'm American, but I don't think it has anything to do with it. Writers write because they enjoy it despite the long odds of significant financial success. The get-rich-quick pretenders come and go, their unrealistic dreams of a one-hit-wonder book dashed.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Maybe I'm the only one (haven't read all the responses) but I find it kind of offensive that you would equate indie book promotion to carnival barking.  There's no reason it needs to be like this; in fact, if it is, you're doing it wrong.

There are plenty of threads here on KB about doing professional, respectful promotion, so I hope you take the time to find them and read them.  It's probably something you should have done before posting.  There are many opinions here about it, and they're all valuable, particularly the ones left by people who've met with success at it, so your first order of business is RESEARCH.

One piece of advice I'd give you moving forward is this: consider that some of your best promotional opportunities will come through fellow authors and cross-promotions, so the best thing you could do right from the get-go and then forever after is not offend them by calling them as a group "obnoxious".  I'm pretty sure this wasn't your intent, but it is how it came across to me.

Best of luck with your new release.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Cody Kelly said:


> Perhaps there is something intrinsic to these Kindle talk boards -- with billions of names and chatter -- that gives folks the illusion that "success" is right around the corner.


You haven't read enough of this forum. 
The ones will illusions of fame and getting rich quick are the ones that DON'T frequent here, methinks. The way I'm reading your posts, that seems to be what you're looking for (and you want it to happen without having to promote).


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> If you feel like a hawker, then you're doing it wrong.
> 
> Using Twitter and Facebook as megaphones not only doesn't work, it annoys the crap out of everyone.
> 
> ...


This is beautiful.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

There are no shortcuts and it's not easy. Seems as though many people who have done well have worked very hard and treated the whole writing thing like a business. I posted a thread a few weeks ago that was a link to a blog post by Gail McHugh  who hit the NYTimes list with her first book as an Indie...she made it look easy, but in her post she outlined what she did during her 18 hour days after the finished the book to market it. She spent the next two months, before she released the book, building up her fan base on facebook and twitter and befriending other writers and bloggers and giving away their books for free on her page. She spent $600 in one month giving away other people's books and then she released a few of her excerpts as teasers. People loved what they read, came back for more and bloggers found her, and also posted her excerpts, with the result that she generated a demand for her book before it was even released.  She also said that she studied what the topselling authors in her genre did for marketing and then emulated that. She also kept writing and released a sequel that also hit the list and brought the first book back up there.

There's a lot you can do to build awareness of your book. None of it is overnight and all of it requires time and effort. There's some really good advice in this thread and I wouldn't dismiss it as hopeful optimism. If you're not optimistic about your book, who else will be?  The most successful people have a tendency to be optimistic, to expect success and to then make sure they 'get lucky' by putting in the hard work....they make their own luck.


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Being pushy isn't effective promotion; it turns people off fast.  The best ways to sell your books are the ones that appeal to you. With everything else, your distaste or discomfort will inevitably bleed through.  So if the only thing you're comfortable with is writing and publishing, you're better off just sticking to that.  If it ends up taking you longer to sell books than someone who's doing brilliant promo?  Well, that's the trade-off for not having to do something you find gross.

You've gotten a LOT of good advice here--and, as people have said, even from folks you've kind of insulted.  Take it to heart.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

My two cents, as a guy who sells a decent number of books, has a top flight agent, and could be doing worse (although with the caveat that this has been covered to death in these forums):

Just write the next book is fine if all you want to do is be an author. As I've said about a million times by now, being a publisher is being a book seller, not an author. If you self-publish and want to sell books, you need to segment your time between being an author and being a book seller. 

The counsel to just write and let sales take care of themselves is akin to telling publishers not to worry about marketing, promotions, pricing, etc. and just hope for the best. It's the worst sort of silliness, in my opinion, if you're talking about operating a book selling business. Contrary to that wisdom, books do not sell themselves. Nothing really sells itself, so if you're in the selling business, you need to get good at selling, not just writing, which is a TOTALLY different business. FYI, effective sales and marketing is not carny barking, but that's a whole different topic.

If you're going to try to brave the trad pub slushpile, you are marketing your wares to a different audience. So you need to decide whether you want to market to those who are supposed to sell your product (agents, who sell it to publishers, who sell it to readers), or ignore that as well, and simply write more.

I think it's pretty clear that ignoring whatever your target market is, whether trad or readers, is a lousy strategy for selling a product. 

There is wisdom in creating a substantial body of work. Wisdom in the sense that it gives your bookselling business more products to sell. But having more products, other than getting you more virtual shelf space in a limitless shelf space environment, only does so much.

If you want to publish your work and sell it successfully (however you define successfully, but in my lexicon I mean maximizing revenue while increasing sales and generating a long term sustainable business), then you are in the book selling business at that point. If you want to write and hope fate finds you readers, you're in the writing business, with hoping and dreaming being your marketing strategy. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with hopes and dreams, but in my experience they don't sell products, and once you're in the selling business, you are in the product marketing and selling business, whether you like it or not.

That business is immensely competitive, hard to break into and do well at, and requires discipline, a sound strategy, a good work ethic, and skill. And luck.

Pitching your work to agents is also marketing, but a different kind - a much easier sort, really. But even so, it's still marketing. Much softer, but still marketing.

So to me it sounds like you need to decide whether you fall into the "write, and don't care whether anyone reads it" camp, "write, and put my marketing effort into getting an agent" camp, or "write, and invest part of my effort into starting a book selling business to sell my writing," camp.

Once you understand which camp you're in, you'll understand which strategy you should follow. The first requires you to do nothing but continue writing and hoping. The second requires you to write and focus on pitching agents. The third requires you to write, and spend time building a book selling business to market your wares to readers.

To want to be in the third, but take the approach that you don't have to engage in the business of marketing your products, will lead you to failure, in my opinion, in this, as well as in all selling businesses. As will will that approach to the second, which also involves selling your product, only to a much more limited audience. Basically, all the approach or writing and hoping is good for, as far as I can tell, is satisfying you creatively, because commercially, it's not going to do anything I can see for you.

Many will disagree. Most selling a lot of books won't, I think. By a lot, I mean many thousands of units a month. All the authors I know who sell real weight invest a lot of time in marketing, cover design, social media, advertising, branding, etc. as well as in writing. They get it. They straddle two businesses - writing, and selling.

Maybe that's just me. Now back to my WIP. Good luck whatever you decide. Although you really would do better searching these forums and reading the hundreds or thousands of posts already addressing this subject.


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## Thomas Watson (Mar 8, 2012)

> All the authors I know who sell real weight invest a lot of time in marketing, cover design, social media, advertising, branding, etc. as well as in writing. They get it. They straddle two businesses - writing, and selling.


An essential point, because however much you might be motivated by the desire to be creative, this _is a business._ Else why the concern over sales?


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Yeah.

Boiled down, the argument is:

"I want to sell lots of copies, without doing any selling at all."

One can do lots of things that raise name recognition without "sounding like a carnival barker." And the hard-sell rarely works, anyway.

The best bit I ever did in terms of sales results? Getting my book Most Likely reviewed by KindleObsessed. All I had to do is ask her to review it, send her the necessary stuff, and wait REALLY patiently. But the day she reviewed it? KDP could barely keep up with the sales... and that was only a 3-star review!

I also had fun doing an internet radio interview for SHADA. And the host never asked me for a hard-sell. We just talked about writing in general, about the story, the sort of dinner-table conversation you might have with a friend.

Simple stuff. But it is part of marketing your book. And it's not carnival barking.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

A good chunk of this job is actually business administration. Secretary work. Lists. Spreadsheets. Emails. Work. Sending emails. Keep track of what you're doing.

It's much easier to "refuse to be a carnival barker" than to refuse to do business administration, because that just sounds ridiculous, right?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

My best advice is go back over this thread and read the posts carefully.   Most of the ones in here have given you very good advice.
Now yes some of them are the cream of the crop but I would bet you good money that they have worked very hard without being pushy to get where they are today.  
If you think you can get rich quick by writing a book, it is not going to happen.  

Other things I would recommend is a good editor, and have a disinterested party read your book.   By this I mean someone that will tell you the truth whether you like it or not.   
Please make sure your book is readable.  
Always remember the biggies did not get to be biggies over night.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Some seem to embrace an idea that writers are too delicate, sensitive, and special to work in the market place like everyone else does. I dont see any basis for that.


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## KellyHarper (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm a firm believer that the overwhelming majority of your "work" time should be spent actually producing new, completed works. For me, this involves 3 stages of a product (plotting, drafting, editing)--and it's my goal to spend the majority of my time on one of those tasks.

You can spend a lot of time on marketing. You can spend entire days learning what to do, devising a strategy, executing the strategy, and reviewing the strategy. The problem, *especially*_ for new writers, is that you don't have a backlog of products that are going to benefit from your marketing prowess.

Spend an hour a day on marketing--or two hours if you've churned out a huge number of words--and get more familiar with the marketing landscape of your genre. In that hour a day you can: research what others are doing, develop a marketing strategy, and begin implementing that strategy. All the while you should be working to produce more and more products that said strategy will sell.

Keep the pipeline moving. You don't know which books are going to resonate with readers, and marketing doesn't guarantee success. Building a following and producing a steady stream of new content, along with slowly and steadily improving your ability to market that product, will lead you to your goals, whatever they may be._


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

I've been kicking around ways to respond to your wonderful post.  Sometimes, I could kick myself for not thinking about how better to market my work before I wrote...my book.  So here I am, just kicking it easy and I'm thinking I'll just stay quiet, bide my time, and take my kicks as they come.  Because at the end of the day, I'm writing for my kicks, not for the money.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

What makes you think that being a carnival barker would help you sell books? Consider the reasons why you have sold books in the past. I doubt that someone yelling at you to buy it was one of the reasons.


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## KellyHarper (Jul 29, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> What makes you think that being a carnival barker would help you sell books? Consider the reasons why you have sold books in the past. I doubt that someone yelling at you to buy it was one of the reasons.


Maybe the carnival barker was packing heat?

My next book will be about a gun-toting carnival barker who stands outside a Barnes & Noble--sorry, a Narnes & Boble--ostracizing the public with his tyrannical demands for book purchases.


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## Worde Smith (Aug 27, 2013)

There's another consideration for the new author: do you want to be a published author or a financially successful published author? I have a friend who put up a non-fiction book on Kindle, with a suggested retail price of $5.99. One book. No author profile. No reviews. Guess how many sales? _But he's a published author!_

Then there are my friends who do careful genre and sub-genre research, crank out books and series of books like sausage makers and make some money from them. Some use cool marketing stuff. Some just keep their butt-in-chair and write the next book. All are profitable, because, eventually, one of their books took off and then the rest got noticed and took off, too.

The main marketing device that the profitable ones use is at the end of the book: "Visit my profile, take a look at the other stuff I've written, leave me a review so I can improve my next work."

All of these folks have writing talent. The financially successful ones concentrate on writing more books. Eventually, they will be able to retire, if they choose, and live off the fat of their waffle-butt, so to speak.

Thoughts?


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

After reading this thread and seeing all the comments from the top sellers, it is clear.  I am doomed.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> After reading this thread and seeing all the comments from the top sellers, it is clear. I am doomed.


Actually, you're not. Everyone's career is different.

If you were writing vampire romances, yes, you'd get lost in the crowd.

But you're not. You're writing to a couple specific niches: those who like psychic stuff (a smaller niche, but loyal) and those who are animal lovers (a vaster niche).

That combination can work for you.


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## Worde Smith (Aug 27, 2013)

JeanneM said:


> After reading this thread and seeing all the comments from the top sellers, it is clear. I am doomed.









*Never tell me the odds!*​


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks, Craig.  Maybe a non-business person can make it after all.  I'll keep you posted.  

Worde,

  Word!  LOL Love the pic.


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## Worde Smith (Aug 27, 2013)

JeanneM,

You may not have to be a business person, but you do have to be business-like. The business of business is to make a profit. If it's your goal to get published, get some recognition and feel fulfilled, you don't have to make a profit. You _do_ have to take all the necessary steps to present yourself properly and give your book the widest exposure you can manage, without turning that part into a bigger chore than writing.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm getting better at being business-like. I don't even sign my checks _Love, Jeanne_ anymore. Heh Heh


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

I like to keep the "marketing" aspect of self-publishing simple... (at least my way of thinking about it.)

I certainly don't characterize it as "carnival barking." That's just a wrong attitude for success.

Here's the thing... before I'd ever published a word, when people would ask me what I do or want to be, I'd always talk about my writing and the projects I was working on.

That's really all marketing your books is: finding people who want to talk to you about you and/or your books. (Usually, your most recent release.)

Make time for that? Heck, it's part of the fun of being an author. The biggest difference is, instead of talking to family, friends, and others who aren't necessarily all THAT interested, you seek out interviews and book reviews so that you can hold those same conversations with people who ARE interested. 

It's all in the attitude. Treat it like it's fun, and it will be. Treat it like it's a chore, and it will be.

Treat it like carnival barking, and you'll come off that way and probably never sell a thing because you're being a hard-sell jerk about it.

Personally, I never buy from hard-sell jerks. I go out of my way to avoid buying anything from them.

If I encounter someone willing to answer a few questions I already have? That's good.

If I encounter someone in a mall who picks me out of a crowd, gets in my face, and says, "HEY! WANNA TRY PRODUCT X?" I will NEVER buy from them, even if it's something I need (and usually it's not). If I'm in the market for a widget, the last thing I'll do is buy from in-your-face-guy. I'll go somewhere else where Product X is sold and buy Product X from someone with basic manners.

But you don't have to be hard-sell-jerk-guy to market your books. You just have to seek out opportunities to talk about yourself and your work to folks able to spread the word.

I mean, Jeanne, your specialty (pet psychic) is fascinating. I'm sure in person, in your daily life, people ask you about it.

For you, you'd just need to seek out interview opportunities where that's all you have to do: talk about being a pet psychic, about just being who you are, and if you do that once a week on various guest-blog opportunities, or interviews, or whatnot... that's all it has to be. Talk about being who you are and that'll draw reader interest... and the sales will follow.

It's the KISS principle of marketing: Keep It Simple, Selma!


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## dkgould (Feb 18, 2013)

johnlmonk said:


> I've been kicking around ways to respond to your wonderful post. Sometimes, I could kick myself for not thinking about how better to market my work before I wrote...my book. So here I am, just kicking it easy and I'm thinking I'll just stay quiet, bide my time, and take my kicks as they come. Because at the end of the day, I'm writing for my kicks, not for the money.


very clever.  just the kick in the bum I needed to go read your book


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

jljarvis said:


> I think this may have come out the wrong way.  For the record, I am absolutely including Elle Casey in that group of elegant and generous indie authors.


I chose to read it that way.


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

dkgould said:


> very clever.  just the kick in the bum I needed to go read your book


Thanks dkgould.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

johnlmonk said:


> Because at the end of the day, I'm writing for my kicks, not for the money.


Well said, and a worthy approach.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb here and take the less-idealistic point of view.

Now, sure... I wrote (a lot) long before I was published, long before I sold a thing. We writers are like that; it's a part of who we are.

That acknowledged, let me also say that I'm not afraid to admit that I do write to produce an income. For "the money," as some put it.

Does that mean I shortcut the reader to maximize profits? Nope... or I wouldn't still be working on EyeCU 18 months after I began it, trying to make it better, trying to get it just right. I could have published several shorter works in that space of time and made more money instead of not publishing a word for over 15 months until I recently released The Devohrah Initiative as a breakaway from my revision process on EyeCU.

So no, I'm not one looking to shortcut anyone.

Does that mean I write in genres that I'm not passionate about, simply to increase my income? Again, no: clearly horror isn't necessarily the hottest-selling genre of late, and yet that's what I've spent the last year and a half writing in.

I could make more money doing the 1,394th version of YA vampire romance and how some mousy, quiet, surly girl starts believing in herself because she's secretly the queen of some other dimension and before she knows what's going on, she has two incredibly hot guys competing for her attention, because mousy, quiet, surly girls are SO hot. To vampires.

I could make more money doing new adult, or romance, or, heck, even erotica. But none of those genres are my thing, either.

I like horror. I enjoy Stephen King. My stories are influenced by everything I've learned by reading his books, about how to tell a story.

It's hardly original to like King; any horror writer worth their salt would love to be comparable to him. I don't think I'm King, per se; I'm just influenced by his work.

But that's the sort of stories I like to tell, too. So that's generally what I tell, within the filter of my own background, experiences, and voice.

So, all that said... yes, I want to make money off my books. I want them to be found, bought, and (ideally) enjoyed by as many people as possible. In the best of all worlds, I reach enough readers to do that and make a decent living at it. Maybe not rich; maybe not Amanda Hocking-level income and sales... but enough to be able to pay bills and rent and buy the necessities of life? Abso-fricking-lutely.

I think wanting to make a living at your craft often gets denigrated by idealists, but is as fully a legitimate goal and aspiration as "I do it for art's sake," or "I write because I have to," or "I just do it for the kicks."

There's nothing wrong with any of those motives. Just as there's nothing wrong with "doing it to make a living/for the money."

I mean, let's be honest: did Steve Jobs start Apple only because "he loved technology" or because he wanted to make a living off his love for technology?

I suggest the most honest answer is: both.

After all, isn't it the definition of the American dream to find work you love AND make a living doing that work?

So yeah, in that sense, I absolutely do it for the money. Doesn't make me any less of an author, either.


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

Craig, I appreciate your reply to my little post but my post was a jokey self-promotey stab at carnival barking, by mentioning a certain word over and over again.  My apologies--sincerely--if it seemed like I was criticizing you.  Farthest thing from my intention.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> I'm getting better at being business-like. I don't even sign my checks _Love, Jeanne_ anymore. Heh Heh


Oh, Jeanne. Don't stop being you....it's those types of comments that make us love the very different kind of person you are. You don't need to change a thing.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you, Kay.  You and Craig have both made me smile today.


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## Worde Smith (Aug 27, 2013)

JeanneM said:


> I'm getting better at being business-like. I don't even sign my checks _Love, Jeanne_ anymore. Heh Heh


Okay, that's a writer!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

johnlmonk said:


> Craig, I appreciate your reply to my little post but my post was a jokey self-promotey stab at carnival barking, by mentioning a certain word over and over again. My apologies--sincerely--if it seemed like I was criticizing you. Farthest thing from my intention.


John:

Nah, I didn't take it personally.

A lot of people do writing "just for kicks" and there's nothing wrong with that. 

My comments about "doing it for the money" are me taking a risk and defending a less-idealistic motive (from an artistic point of view).

While I used your post as a jumping off point, no offense was taken. At all. We're good.


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> John:
> 
> Nah, I didn't take it personally.
> 
> ...


Thanks man.


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