# The Game is Rigged -- Why I'm done with 'Indie' Publishing



## Millard (Jun 13, 2011)

I've been doing this since '06, but I swore that my latest book was my last crack of the whip. If it didn't take, I was done. It didn't, so I am.

Here's a piece about I wrote about finding the whole system to be inherently broken, and stepping away from it.

http://franticplanet.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/the-game-is-rigged/

Likely, being that you're all still posting here, most, if not all of you will disagree, and I'll probably get a pretty eye-rolling, even angry response, from people telling me I'd have been more successful if I'd done what they'd done; if only I'd listened (Well, perhaps, but probably not), and "don't let the door hit you on the way out"! If the whole 'indie' Kindle thing is working for you, that's awesome, but at this point, there are way more productive ways for me to be spending my writing time. I'm absolutely not quitting writing, or giving up on my goals, but endlessly writing and promoting Kindle books is not the way forward.


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## James_T (May 15, 2012)

And I'd like to say that I'm giving up on my dream of playing in the NBA!  I'm only 5'8" and can't jump worth sh_t, and am now 44 years old, but hey, why won't one of the teams sign me to a huge contract


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm not sure that there is a game to be rigged. That's the whole point of being "indie".


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Quiss said:


> I'm not sure that there is a game to be rigged. That's the whole point of being "indie".


Yeah, seriously. Welcome to the publishing business. This is how it works.


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## swcleveland (Jun 6, 2010)

You have to do what you have to do--traditional publishing isn't for everyone, and neither is Indie.  Good luck!


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

I read your blog post. And disagree with nearly 100% of what you wrote.

At any rate, best of luck with whatever you do next.


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## Accord64 (Mar 12, 2012)

Millard said:


> Likely, being that you're all still posting here, most, if not all of you will disagree,...


Sorry, but I'm just wondering what else you'd expect after posting something like this on this forum? 

I'm not going to agree or disagree - but just to wish you the best in whatever path you want to take.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Good luck with whatever you choose to do in the future.


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

Sounds like perhaps you came into this "game" with too high of expectations. I think if I didn't get personal satisfaction out of the writing itself I wouldn't be doing this either.

But, hey, good luck to you. Indie publishing (or publishing in general) isn't for everyone.


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

Hey, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.  I really am.  But for the record, I read your blog post, and the look inside feature of Beach Diaries and I do have to point out that if the view of the world that you are offering readers is general disgust for yourself and all of humanity, there are probably not many people who want to share it with you.  Even if it is well written, which it is.


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## Paranormal Piper (Sep 24, 2012)

Gonna have to take this with a grain of salt dude because I'm not exactly racing up the bestseller charts but a few items on the post seem like sour grapes.

*"That whole self-publishing-as-stain thing, where any author who does it is automatically a laughable pariah shouldn't work any more."*

Ummm. It doesn't work anymore. There are too many big names out there that are doing very well as self-pub writers, as well as those indie writers that later went the traditional route after one of the Big 6 was impressed by them.

*"Let's take The Beach Diaries as an example. For a start, it's an unpitchable concept that wouldn't have found a home anywhere else, unless I was already established. Agents and publishers are very specific in the types of manuscripts they'll accept."*

Agents and publishers are very specific because readers are very specific about what they'll read. Want to know why there are so many vampire-lover and zombie plague books out there? Because they sell. You might crank out a great book but if it's a niche nobody is interested in, then it will suffer... unless, like you mentioned, it's by an established author.

*"There's still this overriding notion that self-published work isn't 'real'; somehow fake; a pale imitation of real literature..."*

Again, this is an outdated concept. Sure, there are some out there that believe self-publishing isn't real, but there are also those out there that believe ebooks aren't real books. For the most part, I think the majority of readers just want a good story.

*"The problem here is that I simply cannot make myself heard above the cacophony of other people hawking their wares,"*

I feel you on this point, which is what makes self-publishing such a big-ass mountain to climb. Writing isn't the hard part. The hard part is making yourself stand out from that cacophony.

Self-publishing isn't for everyone. If you continue down the path, I wish you luck. If you take another route, I still wish you luck because we all have to march to the beat of our own internal drummer, regardless of what others say will or will not work.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I actually agree with some of what you said in your post. It's a little on the angry side, but you have a point with the dilution.
But it is what it is. You can't turn the clock backward and ask hacks to stop publishing their take on sparkly vampires.

I tried to show my mom how to use her new Kobo yesterday. To practice, we went to Kobo's free ebooks page. We had to practically dig ourselves out of vampires, zombies and couples making out on the cover before finding something for the 70+ crowd.

Readers _are _overwhelmed by the sheer number of available eBooks now and inadequate search mechanisms at the vendors aren't helping. I'm thinking the next new strategy will be to simply raise your price to Big Six levels and sneak in with the "real" authors.


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

The problem with the indie market for a lot of people, and this included myself, is that success is often linked to how success used to be judged back during the days of the legacy publishers.  Therefore, when we start out, we still do a lot of things that are identical to how things used to be done back in those days, expecting that somehow the results will be much better now that we have more control over our own careers. What has happened instead is that the security blanket of being under a big publisher is gone, and now we have to convince the readers themselves that they need to put their trust in us to provide the story they're willing to pay to read.

I read through your very long blog post, and there's some excellent information in there, along with a tongue in cheek, sarcastic style of writing, that could probably be successful if you put the time and effort in. And I know the response is going to be "but I already put the time in and didn't get any results." Why I'm pointing this out is because that's exactly how I felt for so long. I published under the legacy publishers back when the floor was falling out from under us, and as a result, I got pushed aside for the bigger names. In the end, I wasted about ten years of time trying to make it as a "real" writer, only to discover that I wasn't ever going to make it in that field because my writing couldn't be classified in the genres they needed me to be in.

So, eventually, I came to the indie world and thought I'd grace them with my wonderful presence, not realizing that I was a nobody who for some reason without merit thought I was a somebody. A few failures here and there later, I have come to the realization that in order to make it in the indie circles, you put in what you get out. Instead of expecting results, I absorb what works for others, filter it through my thick head and then use it in a way that I can somehow make work for me. Little by little, I've found that my contributions don't have to mirror others, so I've started to push myself into mentoring others through podcasts, working with filmmakers who need dialogue coaching, and just using every skill I can muster to somehow make myself into the writer I need to be to one day be successful.

It's why I love this place here. This is the ultimate self-starter crowd when it comes to writing, and no one here is attempting to pull a rabbit out of a hat, but the successes are coming from people who put in the work, learn the craft, and keep pushing forward.

I'm sorry things haven't worked out for you. There was a time when I probably would have, and probably did, write the same article you wrote. Validation is sometimes very hard to come by in this business, no matter how good you are.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

HOLY MOLY!
With some of the covers popping up in people's signatures here, I'm going to have to stop reading the forum at work.  Yikes!


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## SEAN H. ROBERTSON (Mar 14, 2011)

scottmarlowe said:


> Sounds like perhaps you came into this "game" with too high of expectations. I think if I didn't get personal satisfaction out of the writing itself I wouldn't be doing this either.
> 
> But, hey, good luck to you. Indie publishing (or publishing in general) isn't for everyone.


+1


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## Paranormal Piper (Sep 24, 2012)

Quiss said:


> HOLY MOLY!
> With some of the covers popping up in people's signatures here, I'm going to have to stop reading the forum at work. Yikes!


Oops! That's probably directed at me  Sorry about that. Switching to lurking mode on this thread now so it should be safe for you... after this post, of course


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## Katherine Roberts (Apr 4, 2013)

I am not sure published authors have it any better - I've been traditionally published for more than a decade, and publishing is publishing no matter how you do it. If you ask me, the traditional system has been rigged against midlist authors for several years now, which is why there are so many great books being published indie. I do both, and it's no free ride having a contract believe me. I might sell fewer indie books, but I still feel positive about them (maybe because I don't have unrealistic expectations), and I make more royalty per sale from them than from my traditionally published books so I don't actually need to sell as many.

As for stigma, over here in the UK there was a column in The Times just this weekend by the literary editor pointing out that indie books are now eligible for prizes and saying that publishers are not always right. She ends by saying: "What self publishing means is that there are now different ways for books to find their paths to readers. Another way through the woods is never a bad thing." That's a real sea change.


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## Jenmills (Feb 22, 2012)

From your post- 

"TBD should sit on my hard-drive, unpublished forever, because it’s not welcome anywhere else. Like a Chinese baby with a vagina, the length, content and subject matter condemn it from birth, left to die squealing in literature’s gutter, regardless of potential artistic worth."

Comparing the unpopularity of your work with the systematic infanticide of girls in China?

You could really use a little perspective.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

Sorry things haven't worked out for you.

But I think it is much less a rigged game.. than the fact you aren't playing the same game. If it is a game, then you need to figure out the rules. That is where forums like this one come into play. There are lots of writing categories and niches that don't have an audience. Or the audience doesn't know how to find them.

I didn't even know there was an Essays & Travelogue category on Amazon!

Playing the game means writing what an audience wants. Or finding an audience that wants what you write. It tends to be a choice of spending you time marketing... or writing. Or ignoring the game in general and writing what you want. Or accepting whatever readers find you and want what you put out (even if that takes waiting a long time to be discovered.) Those are choices on how you play the game.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> an unpitchable concept that wouldn't have found a home anywhere else


If it's not something you can sell to big publishers, then it may, alas, be difficult to sell to readers. Big publishers know what sells, and if you think it's a hard sell for them, then it's not surprising if it doesn't sell big. Sometimes people do manage to hit it big with weird stuff as indies, but it's safe to say that the things that sell well in traditional publishing (romance, erotica, thrillers) are also the things that tend to sell well in indie publishing. It's frustrating, but what sells big in one form of publishing is likely to be what sells big in another. It is, after all, the same audience, just a different way of reaching them.



> With some of the covers popping up in people's signatures here, I'm going to have to stop reading the forum at work. Yikes!


You can A. turn off sigs, or B. if you don't want to do that (I wouldn't, as I love to look at other people's covers), contact the mods and let them know about any you feel are inappropriate. This is supposed to be a PG-rated site, and it's my understanding that the mods will remove any covers they find too racy.


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## lukemallory (May 13, 2013)

Don't ruin it for me, man! I just arrived!!!!


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

Hey Stuart -  I read your blog post.

It was very well written and quite humorous in places - like how years ago it was an accomplishment to publish your own novel, now your nan has 20 erotic minotaur ebooks on the kindle ) Yeah, okay. Anyone can upload. Getting visibility is tough. But ask yourself - Who is your target audience? I looked at the Beach Diaries and it seems to be in the 'travelogue' category? Not knocking the diehard travelogue readers, but couldn't that be a very niche market? What kind of success could you really expect there? 

Another question you might ask yourself, is to assess how good a writer you think you are. Are you brilliant? Just okay? Pretty good, not sure about great? Whatever level you are at, there will be ways to improve. I mean, if you're being honest with yourself, have you really given your writing / indie publishing 200 percent of your time and effort? You might think that, it doesn't deserve this much from you. But here you're forgetting about the writers who it does mean that much to, who work 8 hours day job, and then 8 hours on their next book at night, with barely a few to left to sleep. You might think that's unreasonable, but success in this field is an uphill battle, and if you're not prepared to back yourself all the way, then you're going to fall short.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

When I feel the way you're feeling, I remind myself that there is no vast conspiracy, nothing is rigged and no one is out to get me. It's just apathy.  The world doesn't care either way about my success or failure.  Once you accept that blunt reality, you move forward with a clear head.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

I'm going to try and not kick you while you're down, but truly, nobody OWES you success.  Your book might be great, but in the old trad way it might not have been published either  (in fact you said no one would take it) for any number of reasons, good, bad, indifferent.  

Just because you can get it in front of readers as an Indie doesn't mean its going to sell and it may have less to do with the "glut" of ebooks out there than maybe you aren't writing what people want to read, or you're not getting it in front of the right people, or you just haven't gotten lucky yet as JA Konrath would say.

Just because you published it doesn't mean the readers are going to come.  Getting your book out there is not an automatic ticket to success.  I'm not sure why you thought it was, because your blog post makes it seem that's what you expected.  

And while we as indies can publish ANYTHING, that doesn't mean readers have to buy it.  

There's also the point that on this board alone we have indies who have been all over the NYT and USA lists.  They've been in the top 100 on Kindle, hell, we have the Number 1 person on Kindle there for awhile. There are people making a really good living off their books even without hitting those best seller lists.  So you have to understand that its not being Indie that's holding your book back.  Being Indie allowed you to publish it as opposed to have it languishing in a drawer somewhere.  It's just the way it is.  Your books, for now and maybe forever, aren't gaining traction.  That's just how it is.  If you can't handle that then you're right to stop.


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## markobeezy (Jan 30, 2012)

Sometimes the idea of being an author is preferable to the reality of being one. Writing is difficult, draining work that may or may not yield financial benefits. Life is nothing without dreams, though, and indie publishing has turned dreams into realities for countless authors.

Sometimes it takes a few swings at the plate to finally realize that you weren't meant to play ball. Not a knock on your character, mind you, just a fact of life.


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## Mark Philipson (Mar 9, 2013)

Now, you'll have more time to devote to that ball of rubber bands.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks. . . .just a reminder here to keep your responses here polite and on topic.  Things have been reasonably civil so far but it never hurts to remind folks that, while it's fair game to discuss the points made in the OP and the blog linked therein, Millard has not asked for a critique of his works.  So it's not really appropriate to do so, thanks.

Also. . . (not on topic but the issue was raised up thread) . . . note that you can turn signatures off via your profile if it's a concern -- we have quite a few members who do that for kid and work safety.


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## RenataSuerth (May 6, 2012)

Think of writing as a hobby and don't expect to make any money. Start there. Do it because you enjoy it.

Some people have suggested that you write what audiences want to read. And then there are people who say, "Write what you know (or what you'd want to read)." Reality is somewhere in these two camps.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

_Beautiful music, painting pictures, that be my vision
They gon' love me for my Ambition
Easy to dream a dream, but much harder to live it
Look, they gon' love me for my Ambition
Beautiful music, painting pictures that be my vision
They gon' love me for my Ambition_

-Ralph Victor Folarin


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## Lizbooks (Mar 15, 2013)

Adam Pepper said:


> When I feel the way you're feeling, I remind myself that there is no vast conspiracy, nothing is rigged and no one is out to get me. It's just apathy. The world doesn't care either way about my success or failure. Once you accept that blunt reality, you move forward with a clear head.


Perfectly said. The thing is, not everyone *can* have success at everything. Some people are going to succeed at self-pubbing and some people are going to fail, even if the "failures" do the same things as the successes and have good books. It doesn't mean it's rigged. It's just life. Though you definitely increase your chance of success by not giving up. 

Whatever you do, good luck.


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## trublue (Jul 7, 2012)

Hmmmm...

Indie saved my life but it's not for everyone. I'm sure you have tried everything 
( change cover,blurb,do promo,get reviews...) if it has not worked for years, I understand you wanting to move on. Just know that indie or not, selling books is hard bussness.

Good luck


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

Sometime's the best thing you can do is move on.  I hope you find the success you're looking for.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Quiss said:


> HOLY MOLY!
> With some of the covers popping up in people's signatures here, I'm going to have to stop reading the forum at work. Yikes!


This happened to me at work. I used my entire month's data allowance in a week on my smartphone until I figured out how to make my phone's browser skip the images. I recommend all of you do that.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

Okay, you try to sell French fries in a town full of customers that prefer potato chips, and now you're going to whine when nobody buys your wonderful French fries?

Good luck buddy.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

markobeezy said:


> _*Sometimes the idea of being an author is preferable to the reality of being on*_e. Writing is difficult, draining work that may or may not yield financial benefits. Life is nothing without dreams, though, and indie publishing has turned dreams into realities for countless authors.
> 
> Sometimes it takes a few swings at the plate to finally realize that you weren't meant to play ball. Not a knock on your character, mind you, just a fact of life.


Well said!


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

The current number one book in the Amazon UK store is by an indie author who posts on on here. Hardly rigged, sir.


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## Lisa J. Yarde (Jul 15, 2010)

The problem with success is that we define it too much by other people's measurements. Trying to keep up the Joneses of trad or indie publishing is a recipe for frustration, when several factors are out of our control. I say focus on the ones that are in your control and define  success on your own terms.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

I can certainly sympathize with books not selling well, but honestly I'm not sure what you were expecting. You mentioned you were promoting the heck out of your books, but I didn't see anything specific about what you did to promote them. I saw a lot of complaining that you're getting some of the same tried-and-true advice over and over, but you made it clear in your post and your comments that you're deliberately ignoring it. You can't honestly say you've tried everything; you're obviously aware of the elephant in the room.

You also mentioned _The Beach Diaries_ was an unpitchable concept a traditional publisher wouldn't have picked up. Does this not suggest that everything put into its promotion would need to be extraordinary to make it stand out? What did you do? What didn't you do? These are questions you haven't addressed. You're complaining about the flood of trendy garbage that makes your book hard to find, but we all have to deal with that same flood. These forces of nature in ebooks are only moderately different from those in traditional publishing. Do you think a midlister (the few who are left) doesn't struggle to stand out on a bookshelf, or even hope to get stocked at all? A unique book, especially a genre-bender or anything bordering lit fic, is always going to be an uphill battle to sell.

But again, I do sympathize. I recognize frustration when I see it. If you think giving up is the right thing to do, that's your decision and we'll all wish you luck in it.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Not so much rigged as poorly designed. To sum up:

- The top marketplace for indie ebooks no longer has need of us and is slowly but surely cutting all our lifelines.

- There is no decent search engine for ebooks. While niche books can now be published, niche readers *still can't find them*. (This coming from a niche reader.)

- The promotional landscape is forever in flux, wasting everyone's time and money.

- There is no industry trade system like publishers and producers have to quickly and easily compare promotion/art/editing/formatting/etc services.

- Indies haven't learned the lesson webcomics did in the early 2000's: it is better to band together than to stab the competition in the back.

- There are no industry standards for submission, formatting, and payments.

- There... is no industry. No, seriously we're all basically vaguely connected artisans in our own little bubbles. Sure that's what independent means, but there's a reason the artisans of old formed guilds.

So the game isn't rigged so much as we're all playing Calvinball and are only just starting to notice.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

The blog post, while funny in places, was... well.

You admitted that the book you wrote was a bit short (30,000 - 40,000 words) and not very marketable, and I'm not a fan of the covers. If you admit that something has no potential readership... I'm not sure what you were expecting?


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Write because you love to write, not because you're trying to make a quick buck. If you are just writing for the money, then you are doomed to fail.

Go back and read some of the publishers' and readers' responses you received about your books, and see what you can do to improve them. I treat all C&C I receive like gold because each person's opinion is something valuable that I can learn from. If you are not willing to improve upon your own work, then you are in the wrong business.


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## Willo (May 10, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Not so much rigged as poorly designed. To sum up:
> 
> - The top marketplace for indie ebooks no longer has need of us and is slowly but surely cutting all our lifelines.
> 
> - Indies haven't learned the lesson webcomics did in the early 2000's: it is better to band together than to stab the competition in the back.


I think these two points basically sum up the larger problems indies are facing. Algorithms and malicious sock puppetry (that emerges when a book starts to gain visibility in some genres) can make it very hard to rise if you don't already have an established brand.

I'd wager our best applications of energy, aside from writing, would be placed on building a genuine readership (mailing lists/forums) and finding a way to break away from depending on Amazon to achieve visibility. There's been talk of indies building alternative sites (even promotional sites) to this end for the erotica genre now that Amazon seems to be trying to do away with indie erotica on their platform (trad erotica isn't receiving the same filter treatment as I understand it). I hope to see a few good ones emerge for mainstream and niche genres. It does look like Amazon is making it more and more difficult for indies to compete with trads now that they've won the power struggle with the Big 5 and don't need us anymore.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

The game isn't "rigged," but it is a game.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Can you describe how the game would work if it was not rigged?


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## Jenmills (Feb 22, 2012)

Write good books, then roll the dice?


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

If you want to see something rigged, check out law school.

Better still, pre-med programs, where the weed-out factor hovers around 80% in many places. Outright fraud when you consider how much these students are borrowing, and due to interest many will NEVER be able to pay them back.

Indie publishing?

Not so much, all things considered. It isn't quite over yet.


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

Jenmills said:


> From your post-
> 
> "TBD should sit on my hard-drive, unpublished forever, because it's not welcome anywhere else. Like a Chinese baby with a vagina, the length, content and subject matter condemn it from birth, left to die squealing in literature's gutter, regardless of potential artistic worth."
> 
> ...


Yeah, this is about the point I stopped and said, "You know what, let him cry all he wants."


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

> There's a huge glut of ebooks right now, increasing almost exponentially every day. It's kind of a dick move to question people's motives, as though I'm somehow more of a pure artist, but some people just want to be able to call themselves a writer; like sending off the entrance fee for Mensa and flashing your membership card every time you walk into the room.


I have a serious problem with the second sentence. And it's not because of the incorrect use of a semicolon.

The sentence should have ended right after "pure artist" in my opinion.

And I'm having a difficult time getting through the blog post. Not sure if that means anything.

ETA: I might be in the minority here, but I really like the covers. Wish I knew what might help, man.


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## donSatalic (Jan 25, 2013)

Here is what I asked in my post in Writer's Cafe entitled: 
*Will the BIG SIX win the distribution war?*

I wrote: _"Could this newfound ability to publish actually drown readers in so many books that 
they flee to the BIG SIX looking for guidance?"_

Link: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,148437.0.html

Read through the remarks there. They echo what is said under this topic.
It's all quite enlightening.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

RenataSuerth said:


> Think of writing as a hobby and don't expect to make any money. Start there. Do it because you enjoy it.


Agreed on this.

When I started this I pretty much put myself on a 5 year plan. Not 5 years to decide whether I was going to keep writing. Success or not, I don't plan to stop. But 5 years to decide where this is going: career or hobby. I'm 2 years in and hoping it pans out for the former, but not making any rash decisions either way. The market is in flux right now and I'm thinking it's probably going to need at least 2 of those remaining 3 years to sort itself out.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

It's not a game. It's business. Pure and simple. Unless you think of business as a game. It's pretty basic really. Write a book people want to read, package it in a pretty cover and blurb, then find a way to get it in front of potential paying customers. It all boils down to this: If you get your book in front of your target audience and they still don't buy, then your product might not be sellable. There might not _be_ a market for it. Nothing is rigged. There isn't a conspiracy holding anyone down. If author A writes in the same genre as you and sells ten times as you do, take a hard look at what they are doing verses what you are doing and be honest with yourself. Do they package better? Market better? Write better? Network better?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> Not so much rigged as poorly designed. To sum up:
> 
> - The top marketplace for indie ebooks no longer has need of us and is slowly but surely cutting all our lifelines.
> 
> ...


You just described a free market.

And a big reason those guys formed guilds was to prevent anyone else from doing what they did. They controlled and limited supply.


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## Ardin (Nov 1, 2012)

Nothing's rigged. There's no game in the world where you can ignore what customers want. If you're writing a travelogue, a few sales a month is probably really good. 
Now that you've mastered your voice, why don't you direct it towards writing a story that there's a real audience for.


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

One of my favorite quotes keeps me going when the marketing gets tough: "The path to success is littered with the bodies of those who gave up."

It's tough and often frustrating getting our name out there. It was just as tough getting my name out there when I went the trad route with my first 2 books. Unless an author is with one of the big 5 or Amazon, they are required to do most if not all of their own marketing. I just keep trying different things. The struggle makes it all the more sweet when something works.


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## RenataSuerth (May 6, 2012)

I read your "observations" on this post. 
You can work your butt off and 80% of it all is still luck/timing. 

I do like your covers.


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## donSatalic (Jan 25, 2013)

Here is the answer:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=151028.0

Says all you need to know.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> You just described a free market.


An awkward, inherent mess?


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## gljones (Nov 6, 2012)

I think It all comes down to what sort of expectations we all have when we jump into the Indie market.  

I keep my expectations low and have been pleasantly surprised.  My expectation for my first novel was maybe 50 sales or so.  I'm getting close to 600.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

If what you write isn't what sells, you have some choices:

- Work out whether what you write IS actually what sells but you're just using the wrong sort of cover, even if you feel it fits your work better, genre expectations might be for something else.  
- Find your audience
- If the market doesn't exist, create it by looking at similar genres and getting your work in front of people who might enjoy it
- Keep going until your audience finds you/can't ignore you because you've got so much stuff out that they can't help but see it
- Unless you only enjoy writing one particular niche, work out what you enjoy writing that sells the best and do some of that alongside the niche stuff you most want to write
- Try to find a trad pub buyer for work that you couldn't sell indie because it was too niche
- Give up

The decision, as they say, is yours.

For what it's worth, I like your covers too, and you have great branding with them, but they definitely say fiction to me.  So if your work isn't fiction, then you may be missing your target audience.


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

Ho Hum

Twidling my thumbs while the spell checker does its thing.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Oh, it's a game. But it isn't Candyland. It's more like Medici. It's actually a lot like Reiner Knizia games, in that there are many different paths or strategies you can take to get to the same goal.










The above is Puerto Rico, which is not a Knizia game, but demonstrates the idea of strategy quite well. If you have one type of building, there are some other buildings that will work better with what you already have.

Of course, resource-management games are more like business than war games. Publishing is nothing like, say, Axis & Allies, or Cranium. So when I say publishing's like a game, I mean it's similar to a challenging and highly re-playable modern resource-management game.

We're in the resource-management game/business, and our resources are our time, money, and talent. Plus, as I'm discovering, there's a bit of Diplomacy (making and breaking alliances) as well. You'll find few people at the top who got there by themselves, by various different strategies, some more wholesome than others.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't believe you, Millard.

You've been in this game too long to give up now. 

Sure, we've all been where you are, feeling like this. (Except perhaps those amazingly lucky people who had their first books take off and have never looked back since. It's easy to want to hate those people, isn't it?) Is the world rigged against you? No. Are the odds stacked against you? Yes.

Look, I've been at this about as long as you have, and I've been really bitter at several points in time. (Hell, I was bitter this morning, and I made eighteen grand in February. I know. I kind of hate myself sometimes.) Everything that seems to work for everyone else does not work for me. 

-That mailing list thing? I have 500 subscribers who routinely ignore my emails while not unsubscribing. You know how many of them usually buy a book? 20. This, of course, means that all my sales come from Amazon visibility. NOT from loyal fans. Because I don't have very many of those.
-A book taking off and it raising the sales of the rest of your books? Uh uh. I had a book take off to the tune of being in the top 300 of the whole Amazon store. Did any of my other books get a bump? No. All 20+ of them sat there at the same rank they'd been at before.
-Sales building? Ha. My sales are so up and down it gives me whiplash. 
-Oh, and yesterday I released a book in my longest running and most popular series, which should have been good for at least 40 or 50 sales right out of the gate. Guess how many I got? 13. (This was what I was feeling bitter about today.)

So, anyway, I'm just saying I understand feeling bitter. I also know I haven't got any right to feel that way. I've been lucky. I'm lucky enough to actually enjoy writing about relationships enough to trick a bunch of people into thinking I write romance. I've gotten some really nice lucky breaks with Amazon showing my books to a bunch of people. Because of that luck, I'm able to stay home and do this for a living. 

But I've been so, so bitter. So many times. So angry that the things that seemed to come so easily to other people don't come easily to me. (And yeah, I realize that there are people out there to whom stuff hasn't come as easily as it has to me. Which, you know, just goes to show you that's it all relative, right? Someone out there is envious of Millard because he's managed to actually write and publish books, and they can't get that part down.)

The only thing is that I just never gave up. Never will. Not gonna happen. I've been stupid that way. I wrote eight books before I found first self-published in 2009. Eight books that all got form letters or no responses from agents. And then I published book after book after book. And seriously, for a long time, it seemed like nothing was happening. And I had the same kind of thoughts you had. 

And I don't think you're giving up either. You said you're still going to write. Please don't take down the stuff you published, even if you never publish anything else again.

What I don't get is why you don't want to publish them? Like, what does it really hurt? 

So, they don't sell. Whatever. Who cares? It might be pointless to publish them, but it's also pointless to not publish them, you know what I mean?

Meh. I'm not sure I made any sense. Look, Millard, you're a rebel. The world needs more people who do their own thing and less people who tow the party line. Be bitter but keep at it. Don't give up.

I really think authors need to adopt an irrational belief in their own success, because I really believe that the only unsuccessful writers are the ones who give up.

And... for old time's sake... you should really slap some stock photos on those covers.


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## wolfrom (May 26, 2012)

Dalya said:


> Plus, as I'm discovering, there's a bit of Diplomacy (making and breaking alliances) as well. You'll find few people at the top who got there by themselves, by various different strategies, some more wholesome than others.


I keep trying to get on Dalya's team, but I may be going about it the wrong way. I don't even think she's seen the tattoo I got for her.

But I think most of the time I've gotten anywhere is through the mostly anonymous goodwill of other writers and from supportive readers. It comes in drips and drabs, but it makes this whole venture worthwhile whenever it comes.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

valeriec80 said:


> ...
> -That mailing list thing? I have 500 subscribers who routinely ignore my emails while not unsubscribing. You know how many of them usually buy a book? 20. This, of course, means that all my sales come from Amazon visibility. NOT from loyal fans. Because I don't have very many of those.
> -A book taking off and it raising the sales of the rest of your books? Uh uh. I had a book take off to the tune of being in the top 300 of the whole Amazon store. Did any of my other books get a bump? No. All 20+ of them sat there at the same rank they'd been at before.
> -Sales building? Ha. My sales are so up and down it gives me whiplash.
> ...


This is very true of my own experience as well.



wolfrom said:


> I keep trying to get on Dalya's team, but I may be going about it the wrong way. I don't even think she's seen the tattoo I got for her.
> 
> But I think most of the time I've gotten anywhere is through the mostly anonymous goodwill of other writers and from supportive readers. It comes in drips and drabs, but it makes this whole venture worthwhile whenever it comes.


Well, Dalya has made all of $40 this month so far. ;-) She paid for an ad that broke even on one book, but nobody liked the book enough to buy any of her others. Boohoo! She's going to put those books back in Select and just continue to give them away and hope they make the world a brighter, happier place.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Triages Egged Him


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## EdShull (Mar 1, 2013)

I understand some of the frustration, as I imagine most people here do. But finding success in writing to the point of quitting your day job is going to be a challenge. Hopefully the OP keeps writing for his own sake.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> When I feel the way you're feeling, I remind myself that there is no vast conspiracy, nothing is rigged and no one is out to get me. It's just apathy. The world doesn't care either way about my success or failure. Once you accept that blunt reality, you move forward with a clear head.


*+1*


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## Alex Anders (Apr 11, 2012)

This might not be a very popular post but I'll write it anyway. I wonder if the OP knows what his goals are. I wonder if a lot of authors know what their goals are. Because if you don't know your goals, how could you possibly ever succeed?

For the record, I am what a successful author looks like. I'm no Hugh H, I'm no Deborah G., or David G. but I am a realistic success. And it is because every step of the way, I had realistic goals and was willing to do what was necessary to achieve them.

With my first book, my goal was to get the book out of me. That was my goal for the book. I achieved that goal. That made me a success. Later I entertained ideas of selling lots of copies. I barely sold any and that made me sad. But now with perspective, I realize that selling copies wasn't the goal when I wrote that book. A poodle makes a great dog, but a lousy paperweight. 

My next 4 books I wrote because I wanted to help people. Looking at the reviews for the books, I have definitely succeeded. I have made $1000 from those 4 books last year and $500 the year before. But huge financial success wasn't the goal when I wrote the books. I wrote them to help people and I absolutely did. I was a success.

My next goal was to make a living as an author. That's when I joined this forum. I absorbed everything from this forum while watching other authors take-off. I wrote in 8 different genres having no success. Then when I was near suicidal from depression, I tried a 9th. The 9th had traction so I focused all of my energy into that genre. 

It took me exactly a year of writing/working 16 hours a day, 6 days a week to do it, while being desperately poor and doing other jobs to make ends meet. But a year after joining this forum, I was making a living as an author.

Then while writing in my new genre, I noticed how so many other people were making a lot more than I was. So then I made my goal to make a "good" living at writing. I then wrote in 12 different subgenres and 4 different languages until I started to get some "good" traction with my sales. 

Now I make a "good" living as an author. I am again a success. I have never even come close to any Amazon.com top 100 list. But I make a very good living as an author.

So I say again, I wonder if the OP knows what his goals are. How could he be writing for this long, have clear achievable goals and not make real headway in achieving them? Granted, if his goal is to make the Travelogue category as lucrative as romance, I understand his frustration, because that will never, ever happen. 

But if he has been exposed to the same info that I have over the past 3 years, how could he still manage to be so frustrated? That makes me wonder if he knows what his goals are. If after all of this time and info, he is still blaming big brother for his failure, then what could his goals possibly be? Because I am living proof that this business is not rigged. Far from it.

But a great piece of advice I got when I was a young actor was, "if something brings you as much joy as acting, do the other thing." I thought it was very mean-spirited advice at the time. Now I consider it some of the best advice I've gotten. I hope the OP is able to find his other thing. Because there is no need to be be so unhappy doing the indie thing.

Good luck to him!


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## donSatalic (Jan 25, 2013)

All a chasing after the wind...


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## Jason Blacker (May 20, 2011)

I feel your frustration. I've been trying to do this seriously since 1996. Still haven't gotten there.

Anyway, what I decided to do was just try and focus on the journey and enjoy it rather than any
particular destination I was yearning for. And I also like writing, maybe it's because that's the
only way I get to spend time with people, 'cos I've got no friends*

As someone before me said, be pissed off and bitter, but keep going. Doesn't matter if you've 
fallen on your face and you're covered in dirt, get up and carry on. And if you can't get up, crawl.

Just wishing you the best. Don't know what works or how to help. Maybe you just need some luck
like the rest of us. And I also like your covers 

_* that last part was a joke._


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## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

A game is not rigged because it is difficult.

A game is not rigged because you cannot guarantee success no matter how much effort you put in.

If you write stuff that you don't think has a market, you can hardly cry foul when it doesn't sell.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

I hope this feedback is useful. Your samples look unedited and unformatted. I struggled to read them, and I'll read almost anything. I think you have potential, but you shouldn't be upset that publishing your diary didn't pay off.

The formatting:
An em dash character is not two little dashes. An ellipsis character is not three periods. There shouldn't be full line breaks between paragraphs. These blemishes look amateurish.

The Writing:
Less is more. You have one decent image in a simile, but then you pile on three more images that clutter the sentence. The same goes for prepositional phrases, adjectives and adverbs. Sentence fragments and comma splices are not a substitute for style. When I see a dozen of these issues in one paragraph, I don't trust you as a writer. You don't have a strong grasp of grammar yet, but it's an easy skill to learn.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but it reads and looks like a first draft. When people bad mouth indies, this is the stuff they complain about.

I took this off Amazon.



> Though this book follows, and expands upon, the pattern set by last year's collection, of people-watching as a sport -- with all their nuances, grotesquery and quirks -- more than ever, these are diaries in the truest sense, often with more of me and my existence than I'm comfortable sharing. While I'm not saying this collection is a perfect snapshot of Cameron's Britain, if you wanted to claim that in, say, a glowing, almost sexually reverential review, few could disagree.


First, you are asking $4 for a short excerpt from your diary. That is a hard sell. Even if you publish your diary, there has to be a narrative. Anne Frank's diary has a story.

Second, I think there are five sentences hiding in your two sentences. The ideas are all jumbled together. "More of me and my existence" How are you and your existence separate things? "Few could disagree" do you mean there are few reviews of your book? "Diaries in the truest sense" as opposed to fake diaries or fiction? You also have a misplaced comma. "if you wanted to claim that, in say" this puts the emphasis on the pronoun. As written, that is not a pronoun, but an adverb modifying claim.

Third, the rest of the sample is sentence fragments. Your 'snapshots' don't have any narrative structure. They are collections of nouns and phrases. A Dave Berry, or David Sedaris, or Jack Kerouac would frame those details to give them meaning. You have the raw data, but context turns it into information.

I tried to buy one of your books. I read three samples before I posted this. The prices are too high for such low quality. The sample and the price take away the impulse purchase. You might have a book about people watching at the beach, but it requires a big rewrite and more professional packaging.


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## donSatalic (Jan 25, 2013)

"An ellipse character is not three periods."

It is ellipsis or ellipses plural. ...


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

donSatalic said:


> "An ellipse character is not three periods."
> 
> It is ellipsis or ellipses plural. ...


Thanks


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## Alex Anders (Apr 11, 2012)

I've got to get back to work. But for all of those who are still striving after success as an author, I HIGHLY recommend you watch this TED video. It talks about the most common trait among successful people. It's not talent or intelligence (or luck for that matter). And as inspirational as Hugh H.'s story might be, emulating him is fool's gold. Yes, every month someone wins the lottery, but odds are it won't be you.

Here is how the vast majority of successful people achieve success. I hope everyone finds it helpful.

http://www.ted.com/talks/angela_lee_duckworth_the_key_to_success_grit.html


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

MegHarris said:


> If it's not something you can sell to big publishers, then it may, alas, be difficult to sell to readers. Big publishers know what sells, and if you think it's a hard sell for them, then it's not surprising if it doesn't sell big.


I disagree with the first part. Just because publishers don't see in it the potential to "sell big" (and thus won't offer a contract) doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean that it will be difficult to sell to readers. I tried for two years to sell my first novel to publishers via two agents at a huge, major agency. The publishers wouldn't take it because either a) they wanted me to re-write it as a YA novel and I refused, or b) they just didn't think the setting (ancient Egypt) would sell to readers. They were wrong. Often, publishers are. Once I self-published it, the book took off and continues to sell very steadily and very well, and has done so for almost two straight years now. It rarely jumps up onto a Top 100 list, but it by itself earns me more money than I make at my day job, and it finds new readers literally every day.

Now, does my book "sell big?" I think that depends on your definition of "big." I'm not a household name and I'm not on any Top 100 lists (most of the time). But I am very satisfied with the income I make from this book, and my primary reason for writing to to earn a satisfying income, not just because I love to write (though I do love to write.) So this book is earning its keep for its stern taskmistress of a writer/publisher, and it couldn't sell to publishers.

However, if your idea of "sell big" is "sell so big you make the news," then no, maybe you can't expect something to sell big. I just wanted to point out how incorrect is the idea that if publishers didn't see its potential, then it has no potential for success.


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## Dan Harris (May 18, 2012)

I've not got time to read all four pages of replies, but in case no-one else has said it: the first step to selling a lot of books is writing a book lots of people want to read. By your own admission, you didn't do that. That's publishing 101, indie or not.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

The way I see it, the OP is running into two main problems that have contributed to his frustration and his decision to give up.

#1: He is conflating the way other writers view self-publishing with the way readers view self-publishing.  The two are very different horses, and the only one that matters is the readers.  Readers don't seem to have a problem with indies.  A whole lot of other writers do, largely because of ignorance and because they have bought into the myth of what it means to be traditionally published.  (i.e., they think they will get promotional support from their publisher, they think they will be able to quit their jobs, they think they will get to write full-time, they think they will be respected by publishers and by the world.  Those things are true for almost  nobody who is traditionally published, and that information is freely available if you just read with an open mind, and yet these writers always act dismayed when their pre-canned Published Author Dreams fail to come true for them.)  So I wonder where else online he is hanging out.  Start hanging out less with writers and more with readers.  Get thee to Goodreads, and your perspective will probably change.

#2:  He is expecting literary fiction -- or travelogue written in a literary style -- to sell well.  Literary fiction doesn't sell well for the traditionally published.  Sure, it is "respected" (whatever that means), but it's almost never profitable.  For anybody.  Ever.  I say this as a literary fiction author myself.  I give this line often as a quip, but it's funny because it's true:  You know how I make money off of my self-published literary fiction?  I self-publish commercial fiction.

I will never expect my more experimental, more out-there stuff to earn anywhere NEAR as much as my historical fiction sells.  If you want to support your oddball writing habit, also write some stuff that's not odball and is accessible and interesting to a majority of readers.  Write what you really love to write in your free time (whatever free time you may be able to carve out.)


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## locker17 (Apr 20, 2012)

I opened your blog in another tab but a really tiny font on a black background is not the way to go if you want to make a point. All I can think of is ugh this is giving me a headache. I probably won't read any further which is a shame because I am not seeing many positive results from indie publishing either.


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## Scribbler (Apr 27, 2012)

Good luck, Stuart, maybe take some time out and look afresh at your decision?

      You're a What?

"You're a what?" said the guy sitting opposite me on the train as he peered over the top of his glasses.
"I'm an indie author."
"Right. And that means?"
"It means I do everything myself and self-publish my books in electronic format to Amazon."
"Hmm... no hardcopies of your books then?"
"Nope."
"So you're not a real author?"
"I'm an author and a physical entity, so quite real."
He leaned across and prodded my leg to confirm the latter. "How many books have you written?"
"Seven."
"Any bestsellers?"
"Nope."
"Indie eh?"
"Yep."
"So you're not a real author then?"
"D'oh!"

And Quiss - get back to work!


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

burke_KB said:


> There shouldn't be full line breaks between paragraphs.


Tell that to Hugh Howie.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

I don't read non-fiction unless it's for research, but I'm curious - when it comes to books like the OP's, what is a realistic number of copies to expect to sell for an average book?


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

> Nobody's calling Shane Carruth a prick for making and distributing the best film of the year all by himself. But a self-published book? That's just a stick to beat the author with. "Oh, you're self-published&#8230;"


I liked this.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

All human endeavour is, ultimately, meaningless and futile.

You haven't wasted seven years because everything we do is, in a cosmic sense, meaningless and futile. 

Feel better now?


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Good luck! 

I truly feel your pain.

But in the indie world you really have to be willing and able to be super-flexible, and vigilant to all the trends around you. The self publishing game is not rigged (if anything, the old traditional publishing game is far more rigged, not to mention, fixed in the no-win scenario).

Instead, the *game now is very fast-moving* and the rules are ever protean and *ever-changing*. So in order to win at this game you have to learn to change your methods and tactics along with it.

Incidentally, there are several incorrect assumptions in your otherwise succinct post:

1) There is no longer a self-publishing stigma. Honest, it's all gone. Okay, maybe a fuzzy, flailing, vaporous ghost of a stigma remains, as the last old-timers cling to the Big 5 Citadel instead of embracing the healthy modern hybrid publishing model.

2) Good books (the best!) have nothing to do with selling well. They have to be good PLUS what the readers want. If no one wants to read your brilliant biting literary satire, no matter if it reveals the Meaning of Life, then no one will. You have to make it so that *in its clever presentation and packaging, and sneaky writing*, it also *seems* to offer something to the reader that they already want. See what I'm getting at there? Hook them in with an aroma of one thing, but make them stay for your true vision.

In any case, remember, you are not alone. But there is one thing only you alone can do -- give up or keep on trying to make it.

No one is stopping you ever.

My motto lately is the Chumbawamba song -- "I get knocked down, I get back up again, no one's gonna keep me down."

And I bet you anything I've been knocked down far more resoundingly and frequently than you, since 1984 when I made my first traditional sale as a high school kid. *grin*


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## Lissie (May 26, 2011)

Shayne said:


> I don't read non-fiction unless it's for research, but I'm curious - when it comes to books like the OP's, what is a realistic number of copies to expect to sell for an average book?


Top ranked on Amazon.com for travelogues and essays is this Indie book http://www.amazon.com/AWOL-Appalachian-Trail-ebook/dp/B003JMFKRE/ref=zg_bs_159960011_1 
It's sales rank is #1179

According to Let's get visible that equates to about a 100 books a day

So @ $300 X70%*100 = $210 /day or $6300/month or $75,600 p.a.

No not all sales with generate 70%, and maybe he doesn't have that sales rank every day- maybe some years he only makes $50k - bummer

give or take .... 
that's not counting the paper or audio sales, or his other related books...

(must go I have a travelogue to write ...)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, folks.

Just a reminder that, tempting as it might be, the custom here is to NOT offer critique of works for which it has not been asked.

Thanks!

Betsy


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Hey Millard, 7 years is a long time to put into anything. Take a step back and re-think it. Good luck with whatever you do. I don't thinks the game is rigged so much. That would imply some conspiratorial order or system and to me it's too chaotic for it to be rigged.  

Have to admit I'm only a few months into SP, so maybe I'm missing something. But I have to admit that so far I like it and "rigged" is the last thing I'm worried about. I find it more like the wide open Wild West so far.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

ElHawk said:


> #2: He is expecting literary fiction -- or travelogue written in a literary style -- to sell well. Literary fiction doesn't sell well for the traditionally published. Sure, it is "respected" (whatever that means), but it's almost never profitable. For anybody. Ever. I say this as a literary fiction author myself. I give this line often as a quip, but it's funny because it's true: You know how I make money off of my self-published literary fiction? I self-publish commercial fiction.


This times a million. Lit fic is not popular, and it's a tough crowd to stand out in to boot. Having any expectations for sales at all is probably setting them too high. Writing lit fic that succeeds even modestly is like getting a unicorn delivered to your door. And this goes all the more for short fiction, especially in the novella length.


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## Guest (May 13, 2013)

Alex Anders said:


> I've got to get back to work. But for all of those who are still striving after success as an author, I HIGHLY recommend you watch this TED video. It talks about the most common trait among successful people. It's not talent or intelligence (or luck for that matter). And as inspirational as Hugh H.'s story might be, emulating him is fool's gold. Yes, every month someone wins the lottery, but odds are it won't be you.
> 
> Here is how the vast majority of successful people achieve success. I hope everyone finds it helpful.
> 
> http://www.ted.com/talks/angela_lee_duckworth_the_key_to_success_grit.html


Love this video 

It's like those fighters who have 'heart', because they keep getting up every time they're knocked down. You don't fail if you never quit


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

David Stephens said:


> Take up screenwriting. I hear it's much easier and more rewarding.


Mwahahaha! I laughed really hard when I read this. Brilliant.



burke_KB said:


> The formatting:
> An em dash character is not two little dashes. An ellipsis character is not three periods. There shouldn't be full line breaks between paragraphs. These blemishes look amateurish.


Nitpicking a bit here. I very much doubt that these are the reasons his book isn't selling. The average reader isn't going to hold it against him, unless his average reader is a writer/editor.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

DDark said:


> I feel like bustin' out a Kenny Rogers song. I'll refrain.


I, I can't help myself.

Promise me son, you won't do the things I done
Stay away from Amazon if you can
It don't mean you're weak if you turn to chartered accountancy
I hope you're old enough to understand
Son, you don't have to write to be a man


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> An awkward, inherent mess?


Of course. That's the free market. God Bless the free market, and may he protect us from all those who think they are smart enough to fix it.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Lummox JR said:


> This times a million. Lit fic is not popular, and it's a tough crowd to stand out in to boot. Having any expectations for sales at all is probably setting them too high. Writing lit fic that succeeds even modestly is like getting a unicorn delivered to your door. And this goes all the more for short fiction, especially in the novella length.


And even more important, the way to REACH literary readers is NOT by flogging the book on social media. You've first got to find them and hang with them, and understand the particular interest niche audience you're writing for. The only general way to "promote" literary fiction is to write a ton of short stories, essays and poetry and hit the lit magazines with them.

But first you have to find what YOUR audience is reading and where, and find your way into that. (And yeah, I suspect there isn't a lot of indie action going on in many lit fic or lit nonfic areas yet. Mostly it's individual authors doing little experiments. Alexander McCall Smith, for instance, writing daily serial for a newspaper, for instance.)

Camille


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> I, I can't help myself.
> 
> Promise me son, you won't do the things I done
> Stay away from Amazon if you can
> ...


Wonderful! Absolutely perfect.


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

burke_KB said:


> I hope this feedback is useful. Your samples look unedited and unformatted. I struggled to read them, and I'll read almost anything. I think you have potential, but you shouldn't be upset that publishing your diary didn't pay off.
> 
> The formatting:
> An em dash character is not two little dashes. An ellipsis character is not three periods. There shouldn't be full line breaks between paragraphs. These blemishes look amateurish.
> ...


I think this is the most useful response in this whole thread.

Edit: I know we're not supposed to critique the work, but really I think there's an inherent problem revealed here. It's easy to say that you've tried everything and it hasn't worked, but the reality is that's not the case. A few months ago, I had to swallow my pride and admit the same thing.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

Vera Nazarian said:


> My motto lately is the Chumbawamba song -- "I get knocked down, I get back up again, no one's gonna keep me down."


Since this last page has gotten very musical, I'll comment that I don't know that song, but it's very close to "Sae will we yet", sung by the Corries that I've been trying to use as my motto. "When we fell we aye got up again, and sae will we yet."


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Stuart, sorry you're feeling so beaten up by self-publishing.  Certainly you're free to quit if you want to, but I'll throw in this quote (first heard from Sandra Brown speaking at a writers' conference). "Don't quit five minutes before the miracle."

Good luck whatever you decide.

And thanks to the poster above who provided the link to the Ted talk. (*Yes!*! to grit as an essential ingredient in the recipe for success.)


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Lissie said:


> Top ranked on Amazon.com for travelogues and essays is this Indie book http://www.amazon.com/AWOL-Appalachian-Trail-ebook/dp/B003JMFKRE/ref=zg_bs_159960011_1
> It's sales rank is #1179
> 
> According to Let's get visible that equates to about a 100 books a day
> ...


Oh, I was hoping you'd linked to AWOL's book before I even clicked the link! Skywalker Walker does really well off of his self-published travelogues, too. In fact, ever since a certain Oprah's Book Club selection which shall remain nameless disappointed hiker-readers everywhere, there has been something of a renaissance in indie hiking memoirs. I doubt by the time I finish mine it will still be a wave to ride, but you never know.

Yes, it can be done. AWOL's book has been doing just great for some time now and he's just an everyday guy. But he knows how to engage a reader, that's for sure.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

For what it's worth I don't think that the OP believes that success in publishing, whether self- or trad-, is due to _actual_ "rigging" of the system or game. The title of his blog is explained in the last paragraph:



> The title of this piece is a quote from The Wire, and the concluding line of dialogue is: "You cannot lose if you do not play."


He then goes on to write:



> "But I want to play. I have to."
> 
> Now? Not so much. I still have to, but it doesn't work, so it doesn't matter. I'm done here, I think.


It's not that he thinks the game is rigged, it's that he wants to play a game that he truly believes he cannot win (whether through rigging or just plain inability.)


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## trublue (Jul 7, 2012)

I feel like you need a hug. I don't mean that to be condescending at all. I get feeling like you wasted your life but I doubt you did. The truth is traditional publishing isn't really any easier. There are good things and bad things about both indie and traditional pub. 

You have to find what works for you. I sat on my fantasy series for years waiting for a pub. To sign me. I had no less than 3 lit agents and I just couldn't get it sold. It was devastating. Then I tried self pub. and that sucked. I sold only 14 books in three months. 

I needed someone to tell me " hey, your cover...kind of sucks" then I changed covers because you have to be able to look at your work objectively. The cover change helped so much. 

I say this to say, the only one who can say it over is you. And maybe you haven't tried everything.
Anyway, the best part of writing is writing. So I hope you keep doing that


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

daringnovelist said:


> And even more important, the way to REACH literary readers is NOT by flogging the book on social media. You've first got to find them and hang with them, and understand the particular interest niche audience you're writing for. The only general way to "promote" literary fiction is to write a ton of short stories, essays and poetry and hit the lit magazines with them.


I think the first part of the above statement is true for all kinds of writing, not just for lit. NOW the game is different. We are no longer living in a world where the old publishing model is the only model we have, and that includes old means of reaching audiences. I have found it much more efficient and useful and *sustainable* to hang with readers and understand their particular interests whether I'm trying to sell my lit fic or my historical fic, and my historical fic out-sells my lit fic one thousand to one (literally.)

I disagree that the only general way to promote lit fic is to do what people did to promote their literary careers back when traditional publishing was the only way. Take a peek at my book Baptism for the Dead on Amazon -- it's got a whopping eight reviews so far, and it's been out since roughly October 2012. That's a pathetic showing for a paranormal romance but for an indie literary novel it's nothing short of astonishing. And I do sell a fairly predictable (if low) number of copies each month. I got that by NOT accepting that there is only one way to reach a lit-fic audience. I did new things that literary authors probably never did before. And I set out to carve out a new audience of literary readers from other existing audiences who didn't know that they even liked literary fiction. Screw literary magazines and the rest of the old model. I'm making my own model.

And that's my point to the OP. The only way to find and maintain success in this new publishing world is to chuck everything you know about publishing, about readers, about buying books, about promotion and marketing, about everything. Make it up as you go along, and stay on the balls of your feet so you can bob and weave and keep up with the changes as they come along, because they come very fast.



> But first you have to find what YOUR audience is reading and where, and find your way into that. (And yeah, I suspect there isn't a lot of indie action going on in many lit fic or lit nonfic areas yet. Mostly it's individual authors doing little experiments. Alexander McCall Smith, for instance, writing daily serial for a newspaper, for instance.)
> 
> Camille


Experiments are catching eyes, because most lit fic readers are kind of hipsterish, and interested in what is being done differently. They like experimental things. So anybody wishing to sell indie lit needs to put on his inventor's hat and forget that everybody has told him for years that the way to do it is to get the attention of the New Yorker and McSweeney's and Salon and just figure it out for himself. Think like a hipster reader. If you were a modern hipster cruising for his next book to read on his iPhone, where would you look?

Stay flexible, people. There are no rules anymore. You make your own.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

I can only say, there is promotion on BOTH sides of the coin (indie v. trade), so if you can't or won't do it ... reconsider everything.

My agent just sent me a survey asking what bloggers I know and if I'd hire a publicist.  So, there you go.


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

A lot of thoughtful and supportive posts here.

Allow me to throw in my two cents:

I went the indie route in music. My first album flopped, hard. I was trashed online as an amateur, poseur, you name it. It was so embarrassing I hid in a corner for weeks, I think. My second record did well, however - I started getting fans, began a mailing list, and even had some offers from the industry.

By my third record, I had figured out the social media game, marketing/advertising, and my product was strong. It sold very well, and had great reviews (and is still selling today). I was routinely asked how I did it, and my fans pester me to this day asking me for new material.

The kicker? People went back to that first record, and suddenly it was "genius", "raw but emotionally powerful" etc. It sold out completely within weeks of the third album selling - at three times the market rate for a first album of ten songs.

The point? Never give up. Learn from your mistakes. Have faith in your art.

Some motivational quotes for you:


   "To hell with circumstances; I create opportunities." – Bruce Lee
   "Time is the coin of life. Only you can determine how it will be spent." – Carl Sandburg
   "I get knocked down. But I get up again. You’re never going to keep me down." – Chumbawamba
   "Character is the result of two things: mental attitude and the way we spend our time." – Elbert Green Hubbard
   "When it’s time to die, let us not discover that we have never lived." -Henry David Thoreau
   "Nothing contributes so much to tranquilize the mind as a steady purpose– a point on which the soul may fix its intellectual eye." – Mary Shelley
   "There is no such thing as failure. There are only results." – Tony Robbins
   "To different minds, the same world is a hell, and a heaven." – Ralph Waldo Emerson
   "It’s great to be great, but its greater to be human." – Will Rogers
   "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking." – William B. Sprague

Best of luck to you.


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

Well, I feel you. All the stories about runaway bestsellers like Hugh Howey neglect the stories of you and me. It sounds like you’ve been at the game longer than I have, which is impressive. Being able to release a book isn’t the same as being to sell it, and I’m personally sick of shilling for my books instead of doing what I want to do, which is write. I also feel the pain of discovering no one is buying my books, not even friends and family.

What’s the solution? Well, the usual claims of cover, blurb, editing are all factors, but not a magic trick. The best cover in the world, and best blurb in the world, and a perfectly edited book are all great, but ultimately it’s about the book itself. At a certain point, the painful truth is that your book isn’t one that a lot of people want to buy. It doesn’t mean it’s worthless, because there’s an audience for it, but that audience is few and far between. The solution is simply to write something else. Or quit.

Frankly, I expect a lot of people will be dropping out of the self-publishing scene this year. I actually think the opposite of what you describe in that article is happening. There was a novelty to e-publishing that made every self-published book an attraction for some readers. Now that the Kindle market is flooded with books, readers are getting more discerning, and it’s getting harder to stand out. It’s going to take a lot of work. I’m sure a lot of other self-published authors are going to make the same decision in the next few months. There are those who choose to do something else with their time, and I respect that. It sounds like screenwriting is really what you want to do, anyway. Of course, selling a screenplay will have its own challenges, but that’s a different story.

I plan to keep trying as long as I can, simply because I’m going to write my novels anyway, and I like that at least I have the option of having someone else read them.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm not quite sure I see the logic in acknowledging that something is "unpitchable" to a publisher, largely because there isn't a big market for it while simultaneously feeling somehow abused because there is no big market when it is self-published.

Self-publishing doesn't open the door to force whatever you want to write on people, whether they are interested or not.  Market realities apply to self-publishers as much as to traditional ones.  Odds are, if a publisher couldn't find a market for it, you won't either.  

Self-publishing lets you offer something obscure or very specific.  If you want to write it and share it with 50 or 100 (or however many) people are interested, more power to you.

On the other hand, if you want to sell thousands of books a month and make a good living, you need to find a market, develop it, and give readers what they want.  It's like any other business.

You can choose to be an artist or write whatever you want OR you can approach this as a business.  But you don't get to do both unless lightning strikes and you are very very lucky.


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

Septimus said:


> The kicker? People went back to that first record, and suddenly it was "genius", "raw but emotionally powerful" etc. It sold out completely within weeks of the third album selling - at three times the market rate for a first album of ten songs.


This is why writers should never, ever go back and rewrite their initial novels. Ever.

Your first hunch is usually the right one. Beginning sales in this business is no indicator of quality. AT ALL.

The sales will come if you persist. People will flock to buy your first, second and third novels. You may have to write ten novels by the time that happens. It won't happen if you quit.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> Since this last page has gotten very musical, I'll comment that I don't know that song, but it's very close to "Sae will we yet", sung by the Corries that I've been trying to use as my motto. "When we fell we aye got up again, and sae will we yet."







So fill us a tankard o' nappy brown ale
It'll comfort our hearts and enliven the tale
For we'll aye be the merrier the langer that we sit
For we drank tegither many's the time, and sae will we yet

And sae will we yet, and sae will we yet
For we drank tegither many's the time, and sae will we yet

So fill up your glass, let the bottle gae roun'
For the sun it will rise, tho' the moon hae gaen doon
And tho' the room be rinnin roun' aboot, it's time enough tae flit
When we fell we aye got up again, and sae will we yet

And sae will we yet, and sae will we yet
When we fell we aye got up again, and sae will we yet

ETA: And this post is totally off topic. I just happen to adore The Corries. I grew up to their music. As far as people deciding that self-publishing isn't for them, sure some will. Maybe a lot of people will. It's up to them. No one ever said it would be easy, not everyone will succeed at it and Amazon never promised a rose garden either. 

For myself, as the song says, "we trusted aye in providence and sae will we yet."


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## MT Berlyn (Mar 27, 2012)

Great responses on this thread. I think almost every writer has felt the anguish of at least one or several points in the OP's article at some juncture in their writing sojourn. I know I have. Sometimes, I have to remind myself that the most successful of books end up in the same bargain bin sooner or later alongside the less successful ones. I remind myself, too, that even if only one hundred people read a book I have written and perhaps liked it, then I have given one hundred readers an interesting story and taken them to a place where they may have never been before and that is a good thing for a writer to have given. _And_, those hundred readers were one hundred more than would have ever read the book had it not been available in some form or another. That is the beauty of independent publishing. A minnow in the sea, it is true, but still swimming around somewhere, making its way into some reader's hands.

Indie publishing may not be the avenue for you now and maybe it will be again in the future...or not, but that you will keep writing is the most vital thing for you...for any writer.


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

Dalya said:


> Oh, it's a game. But it isn't Candyland. It's more like Medici. It's actually a lot like Reiner Knizia games, in that there are many different paths or strategies you can take to get to the same goal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have nothing to add to this thread that hasn't already been said, except that Puerto Rico is amazing, and Axis and Allies is the devil (one day my friends and I will actually find the 12 hours required to finish a game). Hooray for strategy games!


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## P.C. (Peter) Anders (Feb 6, 2013)

I feel for your dilemma, but am in no position to tell you what to do. It has always been difficult to publish/sell literary books, or books you write mainly for yourself without regard to a market, especially as an indie; and free, for a literary writer, is suicide. (My guess here is from reading a few of the comments on your blog page--I've not read most of the comments here, or your book.) There are always exceptions, and more power to them. Of my three books, the one with more active sexual content (rather than contemplative sexual content) and slightly less literary quality sells ten times as well as the others.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

ElHawk said:


> I disagree that the only general way to promote lit fic is to do what people did to promote their literary careers back when traditional publishing was the only way.


When I said "only general way" I meant this: He seemed to not want to get inventive, to stick to "recommended" ways of promotion. The only of those _non-inventive, generically recommended methods_ that works for the literary audience is to spread fiction in front of your audience. I was using it as a negative -- telling him that, of the kind of things he was doing, that was the only effective one, but he was better off to branch out.

Now, again, if it's something he wanted to do, that is a very effective way to build an audience in any area where the audience still reads magazines and journals, which includes the bulk of literary readers (although the more hip ones are reading online publications). If you want exposure, find where your audience is reading and publish there. (And if it's a paying venue, then they're paying YOU for the equivalent of a multipage ad.)

Camille


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't even know if the OP is still reading this thread, but it's good to discuss this situation as if he is, because others in a similar position may benefit.

Septimus brought up a very good point with his story about his music career. (I'm assuming you're a "he," Septimus. Sorry if my pronouns are wrong.) That first album tanked. It was only after he'd put out more work and one album caught on that his first album was "discovered" and lauded.

Particularly true with literary fiction or anything written in a literary style -- which tends to be much harder to find an eager audience for, of course, but it has its place and it has its enthusiastic readers -- is that the more books you have out, the greater your chances of hitting it big. Maybe not now. Maybe not in a few years. Maybe not in a lot of years. But the right person with the right connections to MAKE you a hit can't stumble across your work if she can't find it. If it's not available. And your chances of providing the right person with the kind of thing she loves increase with each new book you put out.

I know this thread is not for critique, but I think those who did critique what they saw of your work brought up good points and it's wise for any struggling author (and any successful author, for that matter) to examine her own work and ask herself what needs improvement objectively. Even the most literary and experimental stuff has to effectively reach its intended audience or it will not succeed. If you are not communicating with your readers -- if your work is too dense and impenetrable and too alienating even for the lit crowd -- they will discard you and find something they _like _reading. We can't ever lose sight of the fact that a book -- particularly something like fiction or travelogue -- is entertainment. We are all entertained in different ways; some of us (like me) are genuinely entertained by work that explores "unseemly emotions" (i.e. literary fiction and related writing.) But in order to be entertained, I have to be able to follow and relate to the work the writer is presenting. It's not enough just to string a pretty sentence together or to make a pithy observation. If you're not connecting with readers effectively, you're sunk right out of the gate.

But if you can connect with readers effectively, then all it takes, one day down the road, is one of your books striking the right nerve at the right time, and then you've got an entire library of previously ignored works sitting right there for readers to find and enjoy, and for you to sell like crazy and maybe even win some awards for. That is the beauty of indie publishing: your work only goes out of print when you say it does. You can leave it up indefinitely and right there your odds of making it have increased dramatically over traditional publishing, where you've got about six months per book to prove your mettle or your chances of getting further contracts rapidly become nil.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

daringnovelist said:


> When I said "only general way" I meant this: He seemed to not want to get inventive, to stick to "recommended" ways of promotion. The only of those _non-inventive, generically recommended methods_ that works for the literary audience is to spread fiction in front of your audience. I was using it as a negative -- telling him that, of the kind of things he was doing, that was the only effective one, but he was better off to branch out.
> 
> Now, again, if it's something he wanted to do, that is a very effective way to build an audience in any area where the audience still reads magazines and journals, which includes the bulk of literary readers (although the more hip ones are reading online publications). If you want exposure, find where your audience is reading and publish there. (And if it's a paying venue, then they're paying YOU for the equivalent of a multipage ad.)
> 
> Camille


Ah, I gotcha. I agree with that, then.

Though I think the fastest way to shoot one's self in the foot in the indie game is to do what worked in the old days of "traditional publishing or nothing."


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## donSatalic (Jan 25, 2013)

*JRTomlin*

_And sae will we yet, and sae will we yet
When we fell we aye got up again, and sae will we yet
_
Thanks for that video. I can say I have not heard of them until now.

We all need songs like that, especially in the US.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

ElHawk said:


> all it takes, one day down the road, is one of your books striking the right nerve at the right time, and then you've got an entire library of previously ignored works sitting right there for readers to find and enjoy, and for you to sell like crazy and maybe even win some awards for. That is the beauty of indie publishing: your work only goes out of print when you say it does. You can leave it up indefinitely and right there your odds of making it have increased dramatically over traditional publishing, where you've got about six months per book to prove your mettle or your chances of getting further contracts rapidly become nil.


That's a good point. I tend to keep un-publishing the works that are not selling, and am not sure that is wise.


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## MarkBastable (Apr 20, 2013)

'Rigged' usually means 'set up in such a way that the specific winners have been decided before the game starts, and no one else can possibly come out ahead'.

I can't see where your blog shows that, or even claims it. You certainly explain that indie publishing is difficult, but I don't think you demonstrate that it's inherently unfair.


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

trublue said:


> I feel like you need a hug. I don't mean that to be condescending at all. I get feeling like you wasted your life but I doubt you did... The best part of writing is writing. So I hope you keep doing that


Couldn't agree more with Trublue. I'm so sorry you've had a negative experience with any of this. You have a point in that it's becoming more and more difficult to stand out in the crowd -- there are so many worthy voices in the world of indie publishing. Whatever your future path, I hope it pays off for you. And I hope you _keep writing_.

Best of luck and warmest wishes.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

NOTE TO THE O.P.: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean we're NOT all out to get you.

Just saying'...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Not so much rigged as poorly designed. To sum up:
> 
> - The top marketplace for indie ebooks no longer has need of us and is slowly but surely cutting all our lifelines.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to bump this because, while we all may have our disagreements with the OP's sentiments or methods, the truth is that that we need a better system than the one that exists. Maybe that's a topic for another thread, but I feel like we need to address these points. For example, point one is spot on. Look at the chaos thrown into the Indie community whenever Amazon change the rules we've all come to depend on.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> I just wanted to bump this because, while we all may have our disagreements with the OP's sentiments or methods, the truth is that that we need a better system than the one that exists. Maybe that's a topic for another thread, but I feel like we need to address these points. For example, point one is spot on. Look at the chaos thrown into the Indie community whenever Amazon change the rules we've all come to depend on.


The system that exists works fine. It delivers lots of good books to the public at very reasonable prices. Books are plentiful and easily available. Both the number of books and the means of getting them have expanded recently. It's working for consumers. That's what determines the success of a market. It delivers the goods.

Chaos in the independent community? So what? The market keeps working, and consumers notice nothing. Companies change things all the time. It happens everywhere, not just with books. It's normal. Market participants know it, and they adapt.

Markets facilitate trade. That's their reason for being. If they didn't, they wouldn't exist. This market does a superb job of facilitating trade.

Individual participants might come and go, but the market keeps working. And free markets are brutal things.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

mjshaw said:


> *"The problem here is that I simply cannot make myself heard above the cacophony of other people hawking their wares,"*
> 
> I feel you on this point, which is what makes self-publishing such a big-*ss mountain to climb. Writing isn't the hard part. The hard part is making yourself stand out from that cacophony.


Yes, this here is real. People have to find a way to stand out. It's not easy and it's not automatic. You almost always have to team up in order to make progress. Find a "team" and then relentlessly promote each other and be in it together - be that author's number one fan.

Also, you have to be a damn good writer. Not average, not OK, but a damn good one. And that doesn't mean every sentence needs to be awesome, but you have to have something in your story that packs a big punch, that makes you stand out, or that connects with readers on a very deep level.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> I just wanted to bump this because, while we all may have our disagreements with the OP's sentiments or methods, the truth is that that we need a better system than the one that exists. Maybe that's a topic for another thread, but I feel like we need to address these points. For example, point one is spot on. Look at the chaos thrown into the Indie community whenever Amazon change the rules we've all come to depend on.


Nigel, let me take a moment to make a point about the OP's second point in your list, about "no decent eBook search engine."

Personally, I think part of the problem is a GIGO issue.

The old "garbage in, garbage out" issue.

Example: I can think of half a dozen eBooks off the top of my head that I found, but are very hard to find.

All of them are in different genres that vary as widely as: SF, horror, mystery, thriller, romance and... I think the other one was biography.

Anyway, they're all by indie authors; they're all decent-enough reads. But they're all very obviously published with less-experienced indie authors "at the wheel."

Here's why:

Just to use the obscure horror title as an example....

The tale was interesting enough, set in the Deep South, and involved zombies.

We all, as self-publishers, get a handful of words to use to help readers find our books. Search terms.

For a book like this, one might expect a group of search terms like horror, zombies, and Deep South as a starting point, with the remaining 3-4 words including the author's name and other things that narrow the search more specifically, right?

Except, NONE of those terms were used. Not one. (And the book was floating around in the 500,000+ in ranking.)

Why?

Well, I think it had a LOT to do with the terms the author initially chose to define the book.

It went like this:

Original

Mesmerizing

Startling

Refreshing

Shocking

Bold

Exciting

Yes, that was the list.

But the author? Was more interested in heaping unearned praise on himself than providing terms that might have helped readers know what the book was actually about.

GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out.

I'm not saying Amazon's an amazing, flawless search engine for the books it plays host to. It has flaws, like any other.

But the books I mentioned in those other genres (all from different indie authors) had all employed the same flawed strategy.

I don't know if there's some ill-advised eBook out there that these people are following, but I've noticed a rash of people doing this. Wasting precious categorization keywords that could help Amazon target their books better, with unearned "review" words.

I think most folks here at KB probably know better... but there are indies publishing books who apparently don't know the power of the tools Amazon (and others) are placing in their hands in the form of KDP and other tools like it.

It's like giving the nuclear war launch codes to Gomer Pyle USMC, in some cases... these tools only work when the guy or gal at the controls knows what they're doing.

Even when a person knows better than extreme examples like those (and I've seen them), I'm sure there are ways each of us could do better utilizing the tools at our disposal. (Even me, since I'm hardly outselling Stephen King yet...)


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

> Original
> 
> Mesmerizing
> 
> ...


I'm confused. Are we talking about keywords or tags? Because, tags don't matter any more, as I understand things, and if it's keywords, how did you find the list? I didn't know that that was possible?


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## Lissie (May 26, 2011)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> I'm confused. Are we talking about keywords or tags? Because, tags don't matter any more, as I understand things, and if it's keywords, how did you find the list? I didn't know that that was possible?


Exactly - I was wondering the same thing. The ONLY words Amazon uses to find books when readers type a phrase in the search bar in Amazon are: 
*keywords (which you can't see what another author is using) 
*the title 
*the author and other contributors names

The blurb and reviews is not used by the algorithm - might work on humans once the find the page - but nothing to do with searchabiltiy

The best way to make your books and sequals "fiindable" is to include a link to a email signup at the back of your book so you can email your readers direct


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## kCopeseeley (Mar 15, 2011)

I struggled with what to write, if anything... God knows I understand how you feel!  Back in November, my books went from selling in the hundreds to 10.  Literally overnight and it was so startling I couldn't figure out what I'd done.  No rash of bad reviews, no trend, nothing.  It was devastating to feel like I went from reaching a modest audience and people were enjoying my books (at least the emails seemed to tell me so) to no one on earth was reading them anymore.  

Bouncing back from that is tough, I get it.  I majorly lost my mojo and pretty much stopped writing for a while.  I came back to KB to see if I was the only one (which it seems I was, so *shrug* to that) but I'd forgotten how great the community is here.  Even when you're the only one, you're never alone.  

I read a bunch of posts and decided to switch up my genres, just for funsies.  No, I'm still not selling like hotcakes or anything, but at least now I'm enjoying writing again, which is the key.  If being on KDP and checking sales makes you miserable, then don't do it!  If reviews upset you, don't read them!  But for goodness' sakes, don't pull your books down altogether!  That's passive income, man!  Every book sold, is a dollar in your pocket, even if it's only one dollar a month.

You said you'll keep writing.  Well, why not keep posting?  Don't expect to sell anything, just do it for funsies!  Meanwhile, keep coming back to Kindleboards.  You have many sympathetic friends here and we all want to help support you, no matter what your eventual choice may be.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> I'm confused. Are we talking about keywords or tags? Because, tags don't matter any more, as I understand things, and if it's keywords, how did you find the list? I didn't know that that was possible?


Keywords. Not tags.

Edited my post above to eliminate a sentence that confused what I meant.


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## seela connor (Apr 11, 2011)

Some of us write because we want to write, we publish because we'd like somebody else to enjoy it, and we charge money because it just seems fair.

I've never expected to make a ton of money doing this, but the stories I write make me happy and I hope that other people get some pleasure from them as well. The money, on top of all that, is sort of a nice little perk.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Some of us write because we want to write, we publish because we'd like somebody else to enjoy it, and we charge money because it just seems fair.
> 
> I've never expected to make a ton of money doing this, but the stories I write make me happy and I hope that other people get some pleasure from them as well. The money, on top of all that, is sort of a nice little perk.


That is the way I feel too!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I very strongly disagree that there isn't a good search engine for ebooks. As Terence said, most actual readers are finding books just fine.

The problem is that people think the best way to find a new book to read is by looking for it.  But to find something like that, you have to know what to look for. Title, author, something specific associated with THAT specific book.

The thing that most people don't realize is that search engines also help you find things you aren't looking for -- it just happens while you are looking for something else.  They do this by hypercharging word-of-mouth.  Yeah, that old method every survey says is the most important discovery tool.  

Many people don't even know how much they use word-of-mouth.  They never buy a book just because someone said to.  Welll, duh.  Who does?  That's not how word-of-mouth works.  Most people buy mainly books they've already heard of, that they already know they will like.  And word of mouth is what SLOWLY makes books familiar to you.  You hear good things, and bad things and just see the dang thing around. You see the name mentioned in headlines: "John Smith's new blockbuster out today/"   That's no different than it was before the ebook revolution.

However, the internet and search engines have revolutionized this process.  There's a lot to this, so I'm skipping a lot, but one small part is this:  Customers of search engines look for things they are interested in -- which leads them to finding bloggers and websites and forums and such run by people with similar interests.

So a search on "zombie books" will likely get you only the most famous books on zombies which you've already read... but it will ALSO get you conversations of those books you've already ready by people who felt passionate about those books, and also read a lot of others. 

And  odds are, if their tastes match yours, you'll keep coming across some of those people -- in posts on their own blogs, or tumblr or comments on other blogs, etc.  And odds are, you will end up on a site or following a blog, where you will find friends who are looking for new zombie books.

And they will talk about books you haven't read.

And you will find new books you love.

And this will be a result of your use of search engines... but you won't remember that, because back when you were looking for "new zombie book" you didn't find what you were looking for.

This is a great system, but it's a system that can't be rigged.  It can be helped along a little, but not really rigged -- because one thing that search engines do is look for genuine and useful content, and they constantly work the algorithm to filter out veiled spam and any effort to pump the numbers.

Camille


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

I write (or, attempt to write) war fiction that happens to be set in a fantasy world. I know damn well there's a small audience for that: fantasy fans want heroes that are invincible or always "right", while fans of war fiction tend to like real-world history. A lot of fantasy fans hate firearms; a lot require complex magic.

My fiction fits into a lot of small categories. There's no way to know exactly how much all the categories overlap, but I figure my potential audience is well under one percent of the American reading public. And that's assuming that they all consider my writing to be _excellent_ --- however short I fall from that level will also bring the percentage down even further.

So I'll never make much money doing this --- not enough to pay my mortgage, not enough to pay even one regular monthly bill.

Is this "rigged" ? Did someone "rig" the American reading public to like books that are different from mine? Even if they did, I persisted in writing the stuff I wanted to write in the face of it. So what does that make me? Stupid?

One day, when the series is over, I may take what I've learned and apply it to something more marketable. But unless I suddenly gain a couple extra hours free time every day, that's years away.

I'm still at it though.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> I very strongly disagree that there isn't a good search engine for ebooks. As Terence said, most actual readers are finding books just fine.
> 
> So a search on "zombie books" will likely get you only the most famous books on zombies which you've already read... but it will ALSO get you conversations of those books you've already ready by people who felt passionate about those books, and also read a lot of others.


This is so true. If you google "Chinese Orphanage", my memoir comes up in the very first page of results. I really think that is why that book is my very first and over five years out, but continues to be my best seller. Or vice versa, it continues to come up in the first page of results 'because' it is my best seller.

Hmm...what came first...the chicken or the egg?


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## Lissie (May 26, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Keywords. Not tags.
> 
> Edited my post above to eliminate a sentence that confused what I meant.


You can't tell which keywords authors are using for their books - and categories are different again. Keywords are important and you should chose them with care, but you can't tell what others are doing unless you have access to their KDP dashboard


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## mctiller (Jan 20, 2013)

So if I understand this correctly, you describe your own work as:



> For a start, it's an unpitchable concept that wouldn't have found a home anywhere else, unless I was already established. Agents and publishers are very specific in the types of manuscripts they'll accept. A 20,000 (2011′s) or 40,000 (2012′s) word non-fiction kinda-journal of people-watching interspersed with flights of fancy has no place on anybody's list of wants.


And then you complain that nobody buys it? Yet you have 5 five star reviews. Call me cynical but if you want money write erotica, vampires, and thrillers.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Lissie said:


> You can't tell which keywords authors are using for their books - and categories are different again. Keywords are important and you should chose them with care, but you can't tell what others are doing unless you have access to their KDP dashboard


I do contract work "behind the scenes" with some authors. I'm privy to what some decide to choose as their keywords.

So, yes, I do know.  Careful with throwing around those "you can't's."

And no, I won't reveal who or which books. That's confidential.

P.S. In the "horror" example I cited above, I fictionalized that example to protect confidential information, but I have seen such keywords requested by authors. It's a trend... and not a beneficial one. It's common enough, though, that I can say that there are enough people who do this that I feel I can speak of it as something that's happening, without endangering confidentiality of particular people.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

mctiller said:


> Call me cynical but if you want money write erotica, vampires, and thrillers.


And zombies. Mustn't forget the zombies. And verklemmte angels. 
I'm going to write some porn involving a vampire with wings who feels guilty about having the hots for a 15-year old zombie.


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## Li Chaka (Apr 19, 2013)

Quiss said:


> And zombies. Mustn't forget the zombies. And verklemmte angels.
> I'm going to write some porn involving a vampire with wings who feels guilty about having the hots for a 15-year old zombie.


Too late, someone already wrote that story. Called it "Twilight" or something...


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Li Chaka said:


> Too late, someone already wrote that story. Called it "Twilight" or something...


Haters gonna hate.


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> I have a serious problem with the second sentence. And it's not because of the incorrect use of a semicolon.
> 
> The sentence should have ended right after "pure artist" in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Except he didn't ask for advice, or help, Hugh. He just needs to vent now. I wish him well, but after looking at his stuff, I have opinions about why he's had problems. I'll keep them to myself.

It's a crying shame though, because I can see the talent this guy has.

I'm done with this thread now. Cool of you to weigh in though.


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

There are so many good posts in this thread.  I'm just starting out in this game and I see it as an uphill climb -- like straight up, but I'm willing to try it.  

There seemed to be some common sentiments in the thread like:
- keep writing and hope luck strikes
- don't do it for the money, but hope it comes
- write marketable books
- write for the fun of it

Right now, I know my writing gig is a hobby that I treat very seriously.  I'm working diligently each day to write something I enjoy and something I hope is decent enough that people will want to read it.

One thing I did note is that you hadn't setup an Amazon's Author's page.  That could help, plus I checked out Goodreads and you haven't setup your Author's page there.  My only other advice is if you want to sell books, write books that people want to read.  I'm not saying that you're book is not good or unreadable.  I checked out the preview of Beach Diaries and it seems like a lot of fun, but your other offerings seems like short story collections.  Unless you're a name brand, I wouldn't expect them to sell that well.  I have a short story collection out there and it has sold a whopping single copy.  And the vast majority of the pieces in it have already been published online -- which means that some editor thought they were worth something.

Anyway, best of luck,
R.J. Spears


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm shocked - SHOCKED, I tell ya! - this hasn't been posted yet. Same sentiment, (a little) more in yer face ...


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

I can't believe how much love Chumbawumba is getting in this thread.

May as well have a ridiculous love fest for Smash Mouth too


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## Michael Kingswood (Feb 18, 2011)

John Blackport said:


> My fiction fits into a lot of small categories. There's no way to know exactly how much all the categories overlap, but I figure my potential audience is well under one percent of the American reading public. And that's assuming that they all consider my writing to be _excellent_ --- however short I fall from that level will also bring the percentage down even further.
> 
> So I'll never make much money doing this --- not enough to pay my mortgage, not enough to pay even one regular monthly bill.


Have you really done the math on that assumption?

Let's say you're right and your audience is well under 1% of the USA. Just for giggles, let's say .33%. That's over a million people, right there. And then let's say you are only good, not excellent, and cut that down to .1%. That's 100,000 people.

If that's even close to correct, your follow-on assumption that you'll never make much money is flat out wrong.

Just saying... Be positive, brother!


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

Michael Kingswood said:


> Have you really done the math on that assumption?
> 
> Let's say you're right and your audience is well under 1% of the USA. Just for giggles, let's say .33%. That's over a million people, right there. And then let's say you are only good, not excellent, and cut that down to .1%. That's 100,000 people.
> 
> ...


That breakdown is kind of eye opening. *Investigates the best way to write about vampires in high school.*


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

There are, according to Wikipedia, about 313.9 million people in the US alone.

Let's start culling the wheat from the chaff, as it were....

1) Of those, people who read recreationally -- maybe 5%? (We're a video-driven society)

That's about 15.6 million "avid" readers.

2) Of those, number who own a Kindle, Nook, or other eReader... maybe a quarter of those readers.

That's about 3.9 million.

3) Of those, number of those who aren't reading just Stephen King, E.L. James, James Patterson, and Hugh Howey... maybe two percent.

That's 78,475 readers left.

4) Of those, number who might read me even though I'm a male and "too big and shouldn't be wearing Ambercrombie & Fitch" ... let's be cynical (or realistic) and say one third, maybe....

That's 25,897 potential readers.

5) Of those, number who actually HAVE heard of me... maybe 1 percent?

That's 259 potential readers.

6) Of those, number who like the sort of books I write... Maybe half.

That's 130 potential readers.

7) Of those, number who don't actively dislike me, or who I haven't ticked off recently...

...and we're down to 26 readers. 

And since I've sold around FOUR TIMES that number... I'm a runaway success!  Whee, I'm a superstar!



> *SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING:* _These numbers are more serious that they appear at first glance. Please avoid extended exposure to this post. In some studies, prolonged exposure to such grim self-publishing truths has been linked to side-effects such as depression, suicide, internal bleeding, stroke, asthma, long midnight walks on the beach, spontaneous combustion, proposing to complete strangers, increased food allergies, bankruptcy, the sudden lopping off of celebrity limbs and other body parts, a really nasty post-nasal drip, coughing, sneezing, chugging of cheap wine, blackouts, mood swings, and just generally being an annoying jerk. Do not taunt this post. In case of zombie apocalypse, break glass. Have a nice day. We apologize for the inconvenience. So long, and thanks for all the fish._


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Sorry, Craig, your numbers appear to be way off.  http://www.nea.gov/news/news09/readingonrise.html


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Doomed Muse said:


> Sorry, Craig, your numbers appear to be way off.  http://www.nea.gov/news/news09/readingonrise.html


That's because eReaders have convinced some gullible teenagers that books are now a videogame...  They want that high score on Goodreads!


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## Jash (Apr 4, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> That's because eReaders have convinced some gullible teenagers that books are now a videogame...  They want that high score on Goodreads!


Back in the day we had the MS Readathon for this (actually it's still going). Getting really competitive about the readathon is what made me a voracious reader.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't think the game is rigged. I just think the game is just like any other games. There are rules for success and rules for failure.  

I like your covers, and the writing quality seemed decent based on the previews on Amazon, but if you don't have the right strategy success is hard in any kind of business.

Has anyone here tried to build up a business before? It takes time to get customers. Essentially writing is just about the size of the market (your genre), your product quality and frequency, and your brand strength within that market.

If you are writing in a small market you will struggle. You are already starting with a handicap.

Things that will lower your brand strength:
1. Writing across multiple genres. If your brand is unclear to readers it will be weak no matter what the market.
2. Publishing infrequently. In your case you have been writing for six years and have five relatively short novels.
3. Publishing bad books and your brand strength will decay. Your writing seems good, but if you write shorter novels you are less likely to satisfy readers. Studies indicate that 100,000-120,000 is a good word count to aim for.
4. Having few products on the market. Having lots of products in the market already means that you have a passive presence for your brand, even without putting out new products. Around ten full length novels seems to be around the point where indies start making decent money, unless they are publishing in a really big market, in which case they can sometimes take off a little quicker (only in terms of money, their brand is no stronger than the brand of an author in another genre, they just need less brand to make more money).

Doing the opposite of the above will increase your brand strength.

General strategy: Good products (long novels, editing, covers, good story) + fast product cycles (for indie books 3+ titles a year) + a large market (romance, para etc.). These things will help any business succeed. Writing is no different.

You have: a small market + low word count + slow product cycles. This = low likelihood of success.

I will only start to panic when I have ten books in the market and am still making no profit. At the moment I am working full time as an engineer (automotive product engineering) and don't intend to stop for quite a while, so getting ten titles will probably take me around five years. I am definitely not hitting the fast product development cycles. Still, it doesn't bother me, I am in this for the long hall


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

Shane Murray said:


> You have: a small market + low word count + slow product cycles. This = low likelihood of success.


Just curious as to what you think a 'fast' product cycle would look like?


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

KJCOLT said:


> Just curious as to what you think a 'fast' product cycle would look like?


Based on my own research, not from my own experience,I would say:

1 title*** a year is slow (brand down, bare minimum and should be manageable by any serious writer)
2 titles a year is ok (brand neutral, doable with a decent level of commitment)
3 titles a year is good (brand positive, a challenging goal) 
4 titles a year is awesome (brand orgasmic, also pretty unfeasible for most people wanting to put out high quality content, unless you are writing full time or are just a writing god)

Just my thoughts 

*** A title = full length novel of the optimum 100k-120k size,


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

Shane Murray said:


> Based on my own research, not from my own experience,I would say:
> 
> 4 titles a year is awesome (brand orgasmic, also pretty unfeasible for most people wanting to put out high quality content, unless you are writing full time or are just a writing god)
> 
> ...


Option four seems the best... orgasmically speaking.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Shane Murray said:


> Based on my own research, not from my own experience,I would say:
> 
> 1 title*** a year is slow (brand down, bare minimum and should be manageable by any serious writer)
> 2 titles a year is ok (brand neutral, doable with a decent level of commitment)
> ...


See, I'd list this differently.

1 or 2 or 3 books a year? Slow.
4-6 books a year, getting there. To me that signals an author actually spends a decent amount of time writing.
7-12 books a year, someone who is taking this business seriously and acting like a professional and doing the work.
13+ books, a super pro who is super serious and putting in a lot of hours of writing.

Cause, you know, writing speed has nothing to do with writing quality and often a lot more to do with things like time put in and ability of writer to turn out a clean first draft. 

As for length, the 100k mark is the inflated place that trad publishers started pushing for in a lot of genres because they had to raise mass market paperback prices and needed to justify it. I, personally, find novels in the 50-70k range the most satisfying unless they are super epic fantasies or something. The nice thing about indie publishing is that books can be the length they want to be now, whether that length is 40k or 240k.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

Doomed Muse said:


> you know, writing speed has nothing to do with writing quality and often a lot more to do with things like time put in and ability of writer to turn out a clean first draft.


Indeed. And the more you practice, the faster you'll get-like a cover artist who knows the ins and outs of their software and how to handle photos vs. someone still learning.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Li Chaka said:


> Too late, someone already wrote that story. Called it "Twilight" or something...


*snort*


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> See, I'd list this differently.
> 
> 1 or 2 or 3 books a year? Slow.
> 4-6 books a year, getting there. To me that signals an author actually spends a decent amount of time writing.
> ...


Depends on the person, some write slower than others, but it doesn't mean they aren't putting serious time in. I am not sure I will ever be able to manage more than four books a year, though I won't really know unless I go full time at some point. If your like Elle and have a good editing and cover process worked out I am sure that would help a lot too. Still, if you divide your number of titles by 2 due to the reduced word count we would be not so different 



Doomed Muse said:


> As for length, the 100k mark is the inflated place that trad publishers started pushing for in a lot of genres because they had to raise mass market paperback prices and needed to justify it. I, personally, find novels in the 50-70k range the most satisfying unless they are super epic fantasies or something. The nice thing about indie publishing is that books can be the length they want to be now, whether that length is 40k or 240k.


I like that you can publish shorter, my first novel is only 60k, however there are stats that show that top selling books hit around the 100-120k word count. Its statistics . Look at the Wool Omnibus, or the books that are listed as best sellers in the kindle store. Most of them seem to be sitting around 100k.

Also, good old Mr. Stephen King recommends the 100-120k word count as around the range a reader needs to really get his/her teeth in.

Then again, times are changing, and many, many indies get a lot of good reviews and lots of sales on shorter books, so it seems like expectations are changing. Personally I still prefer books that are a bit longer though, so I feel more invested in the characters by the end. Writing style can make a big difference though, I wrote my orcs novel pretty tight. I feel like a lot happened in the 60k, and I haven't had anyone complain about the length yet. On the other hand, I do wonder if the higher page count would make it more attractive to readers and get me more sales.

Really, this just seems like the classic rifle vs. shotgun approach. Both can work.



KJCOLT said:


> Option four seems the best... orgasmically speaking.


It does, I'll probably be getting two this year though. Unfortunately I still have quite a way to go before the inky goodness of my books explodes all over the internet.


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## L.M. Pfalz (Aug 31, 2012)

Shane Murray said:


> 3. Publishing bad books and your brand strength will decay. Your writing seems good, but if you write shorter novels you are less likely to satisfy readers. Studies indicate that 100,000-120,000 is a good word count to aim for.


I'm curious, do you have links to any of these studies? I always heard anything over 100k words is considered too long for most genres, and between 80k and 100k was the "sweet spot", at least when querying trade publishers. I've also been hearing a lot of appreciation for shorter works since I began self-publishing last year. Just curious if the market has changed recently, or if I've had the wrong impression of what readers prefer from the get-go. 

And to the OP: Good luck with your future writing endeavors.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

We see these various guidelines about the size of a book, but I have to ask if they matter. The English market covers populations of hundreds of billions. There is no single preference among all these people. They have all kinds of tastes and preferences. Nobody has standing to speak for them.

There is nothing at all wrong with a book 100-120k. But with the size of the market, I can't see much reason to accept 100-120k as a norm for producing anything.

And those studies? Where do the samples come from? Are they statistically reliable? Are samples self-selected? Have the studies been replicated? How many times? What reason do we have to accept any given study? Any reason to accept rumors of studies?


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## jhendereson (Oct 22, 2010)

If I were to stop writing today and never wrote another word ever again, the world would not stop, flowers will still grow and the oceans won't dry up. In fact, no one other than myself would know I stopped writing. Would I be miserable not writing again? Nope. There are other ways of creative expressions that are just as fulfilling and enjoyable as writing. I never write simply to write, or write to publish more, or write to make a lot of money. I write when a story grabs me, compels me to start pecking on a keyboard. Bluntly, I'm not a professional writer, and does not desire to be one. The OP simply stated he now finds writing and promoting a waste of his time. Who is anyone to tell him he's right or wrong? If he'd never mentioned he planned to stop writing, and years later produced nary a word, not a soul would've said, "My God! Millard stopped writing!" Whatever the man does in the future I sincerely hope he finds enjoyment and satisfaction while doing it.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

jhendereson said:


> If I were to stop writing today and never wrote another word ever again, the world would not stop, flowers will still grow and the oceans won't dry up.


Waitasec... you might stop writing? I've been stuck at 1:30 a.m. for the past 72 hours because of you? My flowers are refusing to bud, because of you? The Pacific Ocean is now five miles further away because of you?

For heaven's sake, man, start writing again before Mount Hood goes off and kills me! (Because of you...)


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## Scott Pixello (May 4, 2013)

There's a lot of stats & emotion combined in this thread but it seems to me there is a basic reality that is being overlooked by some. 
Publishing (as opposed to just writing for one's own pleasure) is a business and like any area of business in market economies, some will fail. And indeed, must do so, for the system to function. This may be due to factors in the product, the consumer, the means of reaching the consumer or all in combination. When the product in question is an expression of personal feeling, clearly this hurts but it doesn't mean the world is coming to an end.
As I see it, there are basically three stages to making it as a writer- getting published, getting sold, getting liked. And maybe stage four (not using 'to get' in forming the passive).
The ebook revolution allows you a slightly easier entry point at stage one and helps with stage two if you're lucky/smart. Stage three is a complete toss-up and always has been.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

L.M. Pfalz said:


> I'm curious, do you have links to any of these studies? I always heard anything over 100k words is considered too long for most genres, and between 80k and 100k was the "sweet spot", at least when querying trade publishers. I've also been hearing a lot of appreciation for shorter works since I began self-publishing last year. Just curious if the market has changed recently, or if I've had the wrong impression of what readers prefer from the get-go.
> 
> And to the OP: Good luck with your future writing endeavors.


Did some googling and found this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-coker/do-ebook-customers-prefer_b_1457011.html


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

That chart seems simplistic. Also, it takes averages, but the increments are misleading, I think. An average for 10 books is just that, the average of a very small sample size. 10 to 25 is 15 books in that set of averages, again, tiny sample. 25 to 50 is 25 books. Then a difference of 50, etc, until the jump going up to the average of the top 1,000 where you see the average word length has fallen down a lot, which tells me that in the larger sample, there are a ton more shorter books dragging down the average from the very few books at the top of the wordcount range.

Also, Smashwords counts ALL words in the upload. Copyright text, dedications, excerpts from other works, all of it. So the word counts are often inflated anywhere from 1k to 10k or more. So I wouldn't call this "study" remotely scientific and would take it with a huge grain of salt.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Thee chart sure doesn't support the notion that one should aim at 100-120k.

To make it more useful, it could be weighted by sales. That would tell us sales for each number of pages.


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

L.M. Pfalz said:


> I'm curious, do you have links to any of these studies? I always heard anything over 100k words is considered too long for most genres, and between 80k and 100k was the "sweet spot", at least when querying trade publishers. I've also been hearing a lot of appreciation for shorter works since I began self-publishing last year. Just curious if the market has changed recently, or if I've had the wrong impression of what readers prefer from the get-go.
> 
> And to the OP: Good luck with your future writing endeavors.


60k is the sweet spot for my thriller fans. Anything more and I start to cave in to the 1% who think a thriller MUST be 80k words or it sucks. I ignore the 1%.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

When I think about recent bestsellers, off the top of my head I come up with: 
Twilight, Harry Potter, Gone Girl, Hunger Games, Wool Omnibus, Game of Thrones. All of which are at or over 100k. Which seems to support the notion that if you want to have a best seller it should be at or over 100k (come up with of all the top best sellers that you can think of, what's their word count?). 

With that said a couple of things come to mind: 

1) all of my favorite books are well under 100k

2) I can't think of a single bestseller that isn't a thick doorstop.

3) Not being a top bestseller doesn't mean an author won't make a living writing and selling books.


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## phildukephd (Jan 6, 2013)

It's a wise person who knows when to stop. Critics of this Post should read the link in its entirety before criticizing.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm guessing there are a lot more that have joined the OP than some on here think. They are just doing less vocally. 

Either that, or there's some graveyard social site I haven't discovered where ex-authors hang out, with hundreds and possibly thousands who have disappeared from posting here to enjoy their retirement.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

What I wonder is who, exactly, is doing the rigging? Should we gather our torches and pitchforks and retaliate? (ETA: Sorry. My sarcasm gene kicked into high gear)

Or is it simply that some succeed and some fail? Or that some fail for a while and then succeed? Or that various people have varying definitions of succeeding or failing. 

I suggest taking a look at how long it took for Hugh Howey to "succeed" although I suspect he was succeeding by some definitions long before he negotiated that groundbreaking contract. Someone might say I failed because I have yet to be on a best seller list, but I don't define it that way.

I don't criticise anyone who is tired of the struggle and goes to do something else. No one EVER said publishing was easy. It isn't. It is tough. Always has been. Always will be. But rigged? Pfffft. It used to be when we had to go begging to agents. Now it's wide open. That doesn't mean it's easy or that some won't fall by the wayside.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> What I wonder is who, exactly, is doing the rigging?


I'm surprised you asked that question, but it is worth answering. I wouldn't call it rigging, but the odds are stacked to make even a modest living,
(more so these days) which has changed over the years as the industry is maturing.

Some of it is down to the hundreds of thousands authors' own efforts in embracing the new technology and creating an over supply. Then there is the Amazon tweaks to algorithms that make more difficult for indie authors to gain traction.

The OP is simply a casualty of a maturing business and nothing to do with her ability as a writer.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

*ON THE COLLISION OF WASP AND HOBSON
Wall Street Journal - Editorial 14 May 1952*​
On the sea there is a tradition older even than the traditions of the country itself and wiser in its age than this new custom. It is the tradition that with responsibility goes authority and with them accountability.

This accountability is not for the intentions but for the deed. The Captain of a ship, like the captain of a state, is given honor and privileges and trust beyond other men. But let him see the wrong course, let him touch ground, let him bring disaster to his ship or to his men, and he must answer for what he has done.

It is cruel, this accountability of good and well intentioned men. But the choice is that or an end to responsibility and finally, as the cruel sea has taught, an end to the confidence and trust in the men who lead, for men will not long trust leaders who feel themselves beyond accountability for what they do. And when men lose confidence and trust in those who lead, order disintegrates into chaos and purposeful ships into uncontrollable derelicts.

+​


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Decon said:


> I'm surprised you asked that question, but it is worth answering. I wouldn't call it rigging, but the odds are stacked to make even a modest living,
> (more so these days) which has changed over the years as the industry is maturing.
> 
> Some of it is down to the hundreds of thousands authors' own efforts in embracing the new technology and creating an over supply. Then there is the Amazon tweaks to algorithms that make more difficult for indie authors to gain traction.
> ...


I didn't say the odds weren't against most writers making a living. That is quite different than someone rigging it which implies someone conspiring with an aim of keeping us from succeeding. I will repeat what I said that seems to surprise you: Publishing is tough. Always has been. Always will be. Some people will fail.

But that doesn't mean it is "rigged" any more than being a painter is rigged. Few people make a living doing that either. If it is any comfort, it is one of the few fields t_ougher_ than writing.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I think it is much easier to make a living now than it was under the old system. Under the old system, publishers limited how many books we could write, what we could write, etc. and books expired quickly after release (so often the first books in a series would be oop by the time the third or fourth book was out, not a good way to build readership).  

But it takes a lot of work. Just because it is easier doesn't mean it is easy.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

AuthorDianaBaron said:


> Under the old system, a lot of us would still be sending query after query in. It's important to set expectations too. Under the old model, the vast majority of writers were barely able to put food on the table with their advances. They weren't all pulling down even 5 figures on most advances, especially new authors.


Oh, absolutely. It is easier now. It is more likely now to make a living. Heck, I know writers who couldn't even put food on the table under the old system.

But that doesn't mean that it will happen for everyone as an indie. Some people, maybe a lot, will give up and I can understand why. No matter what path you take, it can be a tough road.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> and books expired quickly after release (so often the first books in a series would be oop by the time the third or fourth book was out, not a good way to build readership).


To demonstrate:
I saw Hugh's Wool in a local shop, a pharmacy. Didn't have my camera to take the obligatory Wool-pic to share here but when I went back it was gone. And they didn't restock it but brought in other books. So much for that.
Good thing I can go and just download it any ol' time


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Decon said:


> I'm surprised you asked that question, but it is worth answering. I wouldn't call it rigging, but the odds are stacked to make even a modest living,
> (more so these days) which has changed over the years as the industry is maturing.
> 
> Some of it is down to the hundreds of thousands authors' own efforts in embracing the new technology and creating an over supply. Then there is the Amazon tweaks to algorithms that make more difficult for indie authors to gain traction.
> ...


I agree authors face formidable odds. Many things have a low probability, but that hardly means things are rigged.


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## Lanie Jordan (Feb 23, 2011)

Indie-publishing definitely isn't for everyone.  I wish you luck in the future!


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> That chart seems simplistic. Also, it takes averages, but the increments are misleading, I think. An average for 10 books is just that, the average of a very small sample size. 10 to 25 is 15 books in that set of averages, again, tiny sample. 25 to 50 is 25 books. Then a difference of 50, etc, until the jump going up to the average of the top 1,000 where you see the average word length has fallen down a lot, which tells me that in the larger sample, there are a ton more shorter books dragging down the average from the very few books at the top of the wordcount range.
> 
> Also, Smashwords counts ALL words in the upload. Copyright text, dedications, excerpts from other works, all of it. So the word counts are often inflated anywhere from 1k to 10k or more. So I wouldn't call this "study" remotely scientific and would take it with a huge grain of salt.


100 is a good enough sample size to be statistically relevant, and they sit at a word count of about 100k. You can criticize it all you want, though unless you come up with some better stats for shorter books selling better than longer ones (you are only guessing that a lot of shorter books are pulling down the average, no evidence), I am going to stand by my position. Even if 120k is inflated I think that 100-110k would still be about right (again, Stephen King recommends this word count too ).

Have a look at the average page count of the best sellers on Amazon. They are usually about 300-500 pages, and 100k would be a fair estimate of the word count.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

NathanWrann said:


> 3) Not being a top bestseller doesn't mean an author won't make a living writing and selling books.


Yeah, despite what I said I still think people can do well writing smaller novels, very well if they punch them out fast. That said, I think if you are aiming for a best selling for a particular title it needs to be a bit longer to have a good shot.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

AuthorDianaBaron said:


> Here's a link to the Smashwords survey just recently published on sales trends. You have to keep an eye on your genre and hit the target word count and price and have a kickin' cover. My novel is erotic romance and comes in at about 28,000 words. It's priced at $2.99. I specifically chose the word count and price based on an earlier Smashwords random survey on word counts and sales price in relation to # of units sold. For my specific genre 25,000-30,000 words priced at $2.99 sold the most units.


It does depend on the genre. Still 50 shades is a long book and its in erotica


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Shane Murray said:


> 100 is a good enough sample size to be statistically relevant, and they sit at a word count of about 100k. You can criticize it all you want, though unless you come up with some better stats for shorter books selling better than longer ones (you are only guessing that a lot of shorter books are pulling down the average, no evidence), I am going to stand by my position. Even if 120k is inflated I think that 100-110k would still be about right (again, Stephen King recommends this word count too ).
> 
> Have a look at the average page count of the best sellers on Amazon. They are usually about 300-500 pages, and 100k would be a fair estimate of the word count.


I'm not going to look for it now, but Mark Coker seemed to come up with data from Smashwords sales that shorter works may sell well in his recent blog post. That doesn't mean best sellers, necessarily. Something doesn't have to be a best seller to be very profitable.

ETA: If you are aiming at best sellerdom rather than good, steady sales, longer may well give you more of a chance though.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> I think it is much easier to make a living now than it was under the old system. Under the old system, publishers limited how many books we could write, what we could write, etc. and books expired quickly after release (so often the first books in a series would be oop by the time the third or fourth book was out, not a good way to build readership).
> 
> But it takes a lot of work. Just because it is easier doesn't mean it is easy.


Exactly 

It still takes time. The entry point is lower that before, but that doesn't mean that success is easy. It still takes a lot of work.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> ETA: If you are aiming at best sellerdom *rather than* good, steady sales, longer may well give you more of a chance though.


Because, God knows, you can't have a best seller AND good steady sales.

It is quite possible to write a 110K book and have good steady sales. 
It is quite possible to write a 110K book and have a best seller.
It is quite possible to write a 40K book and have good steady sales.
It is not likely to write a 40K book and have a best seller.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "100 is a good enough sample size to be statistically relevant, and they sit at a word count of about 100k."


Relevant for what? Samples usually are selected to represent a larger population. The top 100 doesn't represent anything but itself. Even if it did represent a larger population, the margin of error at 95% confidence would be 10%.

Representing itself, the average of the sample tells us little. We don't know the distribution of the sample around the mean. How do the individual books diverge from the mean?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> Because, God knows, you can't have a best seller AND good steady sales.
> 
> It is quite possible to write a 110K book and have good steady sales.
> It is quite possible to write a 110K book and have a best seller.
> ...


Huh??!

Who said it wasn't possible to have both under some circumstances? I sure as heck didn't. I didn't imply such a thing. What you bolded was a reference to aim, not a statement OR an implication that one excluded the other.

However, if someone WANTS to write 40 or 50k book knowing that they may make money on it but that it is highly unlikely to be a best seller, what the HECK is wrong with that? It's their choice.

ETA: Let me tell you, nice, steady sellers are a good thing to have in your stable. They bring in something called cash. I write mainly a genre that is highly, highly unlikely to make a best seller list. A very few do, but they are so unusual that I don't even think about them. Obviously my GOAL is not writing a best seller or I'd change genres. I am happy with nice, steady sellers. The same may be true with people who write shorter works. There is nothing wrong with that.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Shane Murray said:


> 100 is a good enough sample size to be statistically relevant, and they sit at a word count of about 100k. You can criticize it all you want, though unless you come up with some better stats for shorter books selling better than longer ones (you are only guessing that a lot of shorter books are pulling down the average, no evidence), I am going to stand by my position. Even if 120k is inflated I think that 100-110k would still be about right (again, Stephen King recommends this word count too ).
> 
> Have a look at the average page count of the best sellers on Amazon. They are usually about 300-500 pages, and 100k would be a fair estimate of the word count.


They sit at 100k AVERAGE count. That means out of 100 titles, 50 could be 50k and 50 could be 150k and that would also have the average be 100k but definitely wouldn't be supporting the idea that 100k is the bestselling length since *none* of the titles could be 100k for a 100k average to show up. I'm not up to explaining statistics and math if the whole average thing doesn't make sense to you.

Write the length you want. Enjoy it. Write well, package well, and you'll find an audience. No need to pander to random stats and ideas from people who are not your audience.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

It seems to me you write fiction that will appeal to a very, very small audience of readers in the first place. There's nothing wrong with that, but you shouldn't set unrealistic expectations of having more than a small "cult" following.

If I wrote a fictional tome on cutting a wild lion's toe nails, I can expect a few sales, which would be 100% saturation of the market for that type of book.

It means you may not be able to make a living writing what you do, but most writers don't. If that is the only way you judge your writing to be a success/failure-well, that's up to you.

I think Ecclesiastes 2:24 (KJV) Sums up life nicely:


> [There is] nothing better for a man, [than] that he should eat and drink, and [that] he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it [was] from the hand of God.


If you can take pleasure in your food, drink, and work...you are rich. (I, personally, would add friends and family to the equation, too.)

Maybe all you need to do is adjust your mind set of what success is.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Relevant for what? Samples usually are selected to represent a larger population. The top 100 doesn't represent anything but itself. Even if it did represent a larger population, the margin of error at 95% confidence would be 10%.
> 
> Representing itself, the average of the sample tells us little. We don't know the distribution of the sample around the mean. How do the individual books diverge from the mean?


I not saying its perfect, but even with 10% error we are still looking at a range of 108-132k (120k +- 10%). The data is obviously not perfect, like you said we don't know the distribution either, though I think it is good enough to draw the basic conclusion that best sellers are around or over 100k.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> They sit at 100k AVERAGE count. That means out of 100 titles, 50 could be 50k and 50 could be 150k and that would also have the average be 100k but definitely wouldn't be supporting the idea that 100k is the bestselling length since *none* of the titles could be 100k for a 100k average to show up. I'm not up to explaining statistics and math if the whole average thing doesn't make sense to you.


Unlikely. I think it is reasonably safe to assume that this data is Gaussian and approximately fits a normal distribution; almost everything does.



Doomed Muse said:


> Write the length you want. Enjoy it. Write well, package well, and you'll find an audience. No need to pander to random stats and ideas from people who are not your audience.


As much as I like stats and logic, I am also very fond of this point of view


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

C.C. Kelly said:


> The Philosopher's Stone (HP) - 76,944 words
> Wool - 15,000 or so words, the first one that started it all
> 
> I'm pretty sure there is no statistical causality or correlation between length and sales, once you are talking about novels. In general, the good ones sell pretty well, regardless of length.


I agree that if it is good it will sell, however Harry Potter only did really well after books 1 and 2, which were all 100k or more.

Wool also only really took off when the omnibus took off, and the omnibus is big (more than 120k I think).


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Wool took off before the omnibus (Hugh has said multiple times that it started selling well and he scrambled to release more work in the series to meet demand).  It's a series and more episodes helped fuel demand and spread the word.

HP also took off not because book 4 (when it really got traction) was long, but because it was a series and had time for word of mouth to build.

Hitting it big with one single book, no matter the length, is tough. Maybe you'll get lucky.  But the odds do favor series and/or multiples of titles. Trying to make a living with a single book or even just a handful in this business is, and I believe, remains a very very uphill battle that is pretty much as good as buying a lotto ticket.  With a single book, it is very hard to generate that elusive word of mouth or develop those elusive rabid fans.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

This is getting silly, going on about how long a book needs to be to be a bestseller.

Bottom line is that for every bestseller of ANY length, there are thousands of books the same rough length that never got anywhere near the best seller's lists.

Isn't it time to move beyond "magic formula" thinking and just concentrate on telling the absolute best stories we possibly can, and trust that if we do that, readers will find us?

On EyeCU, I made initial plans that I wanted the book to be around 100K in length. And I pretty much ended up having a story that went about that long.

But the main reason I set that goal wasn't for increasing my chances of having a best-seller or anything external like that.

No, my main reason was this: I wanted to write something longer than anything I'd written to date. Something with enough plot and momentum to go that long.

That's what I wanted to do. It was a way to challenge myself to grow as a writer.

There's nothing magic about that length, other than it's a nice, round number.

But I could just as easily set a goal for 80K or 50K or 125K or 250K (the last being so that I could say I've written at least one book as long as a decent Stephen King epic).

But setting length goals because you think the length alone will increase your sales? Ehh.

There is NO magic formula. Other than great storytelling.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> Wool took off before the omnibus (Hugh has said multiple times that it started selling well and he scrambled to release more work in the series to meet demand). It's a series and more episodes helped fuel demand and spread the word.
> 
> HP also took off not because book 4 (when it really got traction) was long, but because it was a series and had time for word of mouth to build.
> 
> Hitting it big with one single book, no matter the length, is tough. Maybe you'll get lucky. But the odds do favor series and/or multiples of titles. Trying to make a living with a single book or even just a handful in this business is, and I believe, remains a very very uphill battle that is pretty much as good as buying a lotto ticket. With a single book, it is very hard to generate that elusive word of mouth or develop those elusive rabid fans.


I completely agree that writing shorter books is a better strategy to get noticed. No arguments there


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

Shane Murray said:


> I don't think the game is rigged. I just think the game is just like any other games. There are rules for success and rules for failure.
> 
> I like your covers, and the writing quality seemed decent based on the previews on Amazon, but if you don't have the right strategy success is hard in any kind of business.
> 
> ...


I wanted to chime in after reading this as one indie author who is getting started to another indie author who it appears is fairly new as well....

I completely agree with your above points. I gotta be totally honest, I see these articles and posts from some indies that are complaining about sales and I see so many issues with what they're trying to accomplish.

I was at this small conference run by a local writing guild and the only reason I went was for a presentation on online marketing. The guy giving the presentation was an absolute joke and I was p*ssed that I wasted three hours listening to all the crap and not spending three hours writing.

This presenter talked about Facebook, Blogs, Twitter, and Email then basically said none of them matter because they don't work. He talked about his own experiences with his own book and just from the look of it I could see a bunch of things that were just wrong. His book is currently ranked over 3,000,000. For starters, his cover was crap, you actually couldn't even tell what was on the cover without taking a hard look. His book is a romance and the title didn't reflect the genre (his title reflects a book about car racing). His opening has no hook and is actually confusing about what the hell is even going on.

He told us about how he tried to get into screenwriting, but unless you knew someone, you really didn't have a chance which is why he turned to self-publishing and wrote a novel.

Then he told us he never planned to write another novel.

I was just like, "Wow..."

I think the market is saturated with people like that and there really isn't much to worry about for people who can recognize faults, accept criticism, and want to write because they like to write and not because they have this fantasy of instant blockbusters.

It just drives me nuts that we have these crazies with over inflated egos who don't want to put in the effort to learn the business so they go crying to Salon or KBoards or conferences because their literary genius isn't raking in the millions and allowing them to retire.

Oh, and every time I hear someone say something like, "I'm going to write because I can write better than so-and-so," (with so-and-so being a multi-millionaire from their writing) I just feel like saying, "Alright, in 5 years if your net worth is less than 1 million, can I just go ahead and shoot you in the face?"


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

AshRonin said:


> Oh, and every time I hear someone say something like, "I'm going to write because I can write better than so-and-so," (with so-and-so being a multi-millionaire from their writing) I just feel like saying, "Alright, in 5 years if your net worth is less than 1 million, can I just go ahead and shoot you in the face?"


I laughed at this. Thank you


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

I think the OP is right in that his book won't sell as an indie. I think he's wrong in thinking the system is rigged. Indie publishing is like the pulp originals of the 50s. Genre fiction, highly commercial, pushing the envelope, and derided as trash that's going to destroy literature.

Just as you didn't find literary fiction in a paperback rack in a drug store in 1956, you don't find it (or don't find it selling) as an indie today.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Stuart, try listing under one of the humor subcategories. Your stuff is miles closer to David Sedaris than Jon Krakauer. The bit in your blog about the taxi full of tourists is hysterical. Your covers make me laugh. I loved Dirt Baby. Stop publishing if you like, but don't UNpublish. I've been offline for a spell but am passing through sunny England (LHR) as I write this. If I'd seen your post earlier I'd have popped by your beach to buck you up!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Shane Murray said:


> I not saying its perfect, but even with 10% error we are still looking at a range of 108-132k (120k +- 10%). The data is obviously not perfect, like you said we don't know the distribution either, though I think it is good enough to draw the basic conclusion that best sellers are around or over 100k.


We can't even apply a margin of error because it's not a random sample. It is a sample of nothing. Lacking a distribution we know nothing about word count of the members of the sample.

The best that can be said is it is a sample of books that have been in the top fifty. But we don know how the sample was developed. Is it from the top fifty on a single date? What is the population of books from which it was drawn? Is it random? Skewed?

To get a statistically reliable simple of top fifty books we would have to take every book that made the top fifty in the last X years. Then from that group, we would pull a random sample. Then we would examine the distribution of the sample.

A sample developed like this would represent a population. That population would be any book that hit the top fifty in the last X years.

Bad data, especially bad data that pretends to be statistically reliable leads to bad decisions.
With the data we have we can't even cite the range of word count among the fifty. What is the highest? Lowest?

What does this sample represent other than itself?


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> However, if someone WANTS to write 40 or 50k book knowing that they may make money on it but that it is highly unlikely to be a best seller, what the HECK is wrong with that? It's their choice.


Nothing is wrong with that.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

AshRonin said:


> He told us about how he tried to get into screenwriting, but unless you knew someone, you really didn't have a chance which is why he turned to self-publishing and wrote a novel.
> 
> Then he told us he never planned to write another novel.


Wow. I dunno what is worse: his rants about social media (not that I disagree completely), or that he feels one novel will be a blockbuster. I figure I should get at least 25 novels out there before even thinking along those lines.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

I am currently in the process of writing a best seller, and I'm so glad I found this thread! I was aiming for 87,643 words, but after reading the stats outlined in recent reports and presented here, I've decided on 93,671. I feel so much better having set the proper parameters for BS status. 

Now all I have to worry about is white space. Mishandle that, and it's ruination...


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

EC Sheedy said:


> I am currently in the process of writing a best seller, and I'm so glad I found this thread! I was aiming for 87,643 words, but after reading the stats outlined in recent reports and presented here, I've decided on 93,671. I feel so much better having set the proper parameters for BS status.
> 
> Now all I have to worry about is white space. Mishandle that, and it's ruination...


 

How can we possibly tell what sells best? Amazon opened up KDP to the world in 2010, I think. Ebook sales were a mere pittance of overall book sales until 2011, if I recall correctly. The great indie wave of publishing wasn't even acknowledged by the industry until last year.

We won't know diddly until 2020 or there abouts, when we can look at a decent swag of years with a good proportion of the internet population having at least tried reading on an electronic device.

And to those advocating longer books, look at the success of twitter. Not ten years ago, it was unimaginable that such short form communication could be so powerful. It was mocked and derided for a long time after its launch in 2006. Now its ubiquitous with everyone from the owner of the local pizza parlour to the most poweful people on the planet giving us a piece of their mind, 140chars at a time.

It's going to be a long time before we will be able to make any sense of the chaos that is digital publishing.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> This is getting silly, going on about how long a book needs to be to be a bestseller.


Aye, because the numbers are skewed by an important detail being missed. The most commonly preferred word count range by traditional publishers is the 80-120 range. They only accept the higher range or beyond if it is an exceptional piece of work. Something that becomes a best seller is usually determined to be an exceptional piece of work. So it just means that you have to write something the publishers already determine to be of best seller potential to be amid the greater size of wordcount.

It doesn't make it what the publisher wants... or what the reader wants. Only that if you write exceptional work, you can go to the longer wordcount.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

EC Sheedy said:


> Now all I have to worry about is white space. Mishandle that, and it's ruination...


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Actually, the system is rigged - it is rigged in our favor. 

I don't know where the benchmarks are, but I do know the more books you sell, the more Amazon helps you sell them. In fact, when you first publish, your book goes on the New Release lists. It slides off after 90 days, of course, but it is big boost and can really get a "good" book off the ground.

The problem after it slides down the list, is getting to that next benchmark, which I admit is much harder now than it was when I started three years ago. I think after I sold the first 10,000, maybe 5,000, Amazon made one of my books a "deal of the day." Did it help? You bet it did. Every once in a while, they discount one of my books and put it on the discounted list, which also helps. A lot of authors get upset over this, but they are really trying to help us get noticed.

If we just sit back and think about it, we can see a lot of things they do to help us. The only thing they can't do is make us write a book people want to read.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I don't think talking about book length is silly at all. It's just one part of delivering what readers want.

I had a real ah-hah moment a few months back.

I'm impatient about reading these days--impatient because there's so much to read, and I fear I'll never be able to read enough, and it's important for my writing that I fill my head with good stuff. HOWEVER! That's not how non-author readers feel. If they find a book they love, they want it to never end. I'm surprised how slow-moving some (not all) of the bestsellers are, and the level of detail that's written out. I find it a bit pointless, some of this detail, but I think for readers who go through books at a rate of several per week, that's just pacing for them.

Nowadays, I'm allowing myself to use fuller descriptions. I wouldn't say I'm padding it out, because I like the descriptions and how they add to the story, but in my early authoring days I wouldn't have allowed as much.

tl/dr: Readers don't want good books to ever end. Write 'em long if it feels right!


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## EmilyG (Jan 31, 2010)

Martitalbott said:


> Actually, the system is rigged - it is rigged in our favor.


I agree with this. I have been following a book written by a friend that was traditionally published around the same time as my mom self-published her book (November 2012).

My friend had the NetGalley ARC, release party, blog tour, press releases, and all. Initially, she was spine out in B&N but, currently, she is not in any bookstore. Amazon just reduced her hardcover book to $2.69. The ebook is still priced at $9.99. She has 25 reviews on Amazon, most of them from the first 2 months. Her rank is hovering around the 1,000,000 mark.

Her book is dead in the water and there is nothing she can do. She feels all she can do is write her next book and hope for the best.

I think indie publishing is so empowering. At least if an indie author is having a bad month, they can reduce their price, change their cover, schedule a promo, or throw a party!

Plus, I think starting semi-big and fizzling out has to be a lot more disheartening than starting small and building toward the goal of total world domination.


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## Jeanne Lynn (Nov 19, 2012)

Katie Elle said:


> I think the OP is right in that his book won't sell as an indie. I think he's wrong in thinking the system is rigged. Indie publishing is like the pulp originals of the 50s. Genre fiction, highly commercial, pushing the envelope, and derided as trash that's going to destroy literature.
> 
> Just as you didn't find literary fiction in a paperback rack in a drug store in 1956, you don't find it (or don't find it selling) as an indie today.


I agree with this. One of my sons writes novels in genres that I know won't sell well. What can you do? That's what he likes to write.

I haven't read the books in question as I generally read thrillers, paranormal or murder mysteries. I buy a lot of Kindle Indie books. I try to read at least 4-5 full-length novels a week. I always download the sample first; if I'm enjoying the book when the sample ends, I hit the buy button. The price of the book isn't a factor for me.

I don't post too often on this board, but I enjoy reading it. I've read enough success stories to convince me that the game is not rigged.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I agree that the game is rigged. The stuff written so that the most people like it is what seems to be popular and sells, and that just doesn't seem right. I say we start a movement to change it so that whatever we write is what people want to read. We just need a clever ad campaign, I think.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

We might just conclude we are right and consumers are wrong.


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

Dalya said:


> I don't think talking about book length is silly at all. It's just one part of delivering what readers want.
> 
> I had a real ah-hah moment a few months back.
> 
> ...


What Dalya excels at is pointing out things that should be obvious but are often overlooked because they're so simple. Sort of like we can't see the forest for the trees, and she points out the forest. Thank you, Dalya.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

I give up... the game IS rigged.

But the game is SURVIVOR.

As for writing, it's a career, not a game.


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## SEAN H. ROBERTSON (Mar 14, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I give up... the game IS rigged.
> 
> But the game is SURVIVOR.
> 
> As for writing, it's a career, not a game.


Amen, rabbi!


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## Katherine Roberts (Apr 4, 2013)

tensen said:


> The most commonly preferred word count range by traditional publishers is the 80-120 range. They only accept the higher range or beyond if it is an exceptional piece of work.


I think the upper limit is partly because of the cost of production... which doesn't apply to ebooks. And much shorter works get lost in a bookshop when displayed spine-out on a shelf... another thing that doesn't apply to ebooks! I feel we should be embracing these differences as writers, not limiting ourselves to the old paper boundaries. Why not a 500,000 word ebook? I published a seven-book omnibus of my Seven Wonders that could never have been published as a single paper edition. Also shorter works, provided the reader feels they are getting value for money.

Though you might want to avoid huge books if you are planning worldwide domination, since translation costs for longer works can put off foreign publishers (e.g. my book "I am the Great Horse" is 150,000 words and has only so far been translated into Greek, whereas my shorter Seven Wonders books at around 60,000 words have been translated into 11 languages... several foreign publishers quoted the length as the problem with the longer book.)

Creatively speaking, however, I think every story has its natural length - so I suppose it depends if you want to make money or art.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Katherine Roberts said:


> ...so I suppose it depends if you want to make money or art.


On behalf of probably all of KB....

"I wanna make art!....(that makes money.)"


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## Paul StJohn Mackintosh (May 22, 2013)

I Blame Everybody Else For Me Not Making Enough Money To Retire Rich Like Stephen King. If They Didn't Fill The Store With Their Books, Readers Would All See Mine And Pay Me Big Money. Especially The Ones With Sexier Covers Who Write Stuff People Want To Read. I Blame Them More And Worse.


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## Paul StJohn Mackintosh (May 22, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> On behalf of probably all of KB....
> 
> "I wanna make art!....(that makes money.)"


As it happens, *some* money would be nice, but I'll stick to making art and not mortgage my home against my anticipated royalties. Actually, what I *will* do - which really works - is write *about* making art, and make money from that.

If a few more of the assiduous self-publishing writers around here actually took up journalism, there would probably be a mite fewer disappointed and financially distressed ones bemoaning their fate. The rewards may not be great, but it sure beats beating yourself up over months to produce a book that sells two copies on Amazon. I can write an article in 30 minutes that - guaranteed - *will* make me as much money as that book would. I do it every day, at least once, and often three or four times. And if I was just a little bit more serious about my journalism, I could be making much more.

One catch, though: you have to actually have something to say that people want to read. And you have to write well. (Oops, is that one catch or two?) Either way, sorry, but no getting around that. Better work on it first.


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

Paul StJohn Mackintosh said:


> If a few more of the assiduous self-publishing writers around here actually took up journalism, there would probably be a mite fewer disappointed and financially distressed ones bemoaning their fate. The rewards may not be great, but it sure beats beating yourself up over months to produce a book that sells two copies on Amazon. I can write an article in 30 minutes that - guaranteed - *will* make me as much money as that book would. I do it every day, at least once, and often three or four times. And if I was just a little bit more serious about my journalism, I could be making much more.


I started with that, and I _hated_ it. I felt like the creative part of me died several times a day.

And I've made a lot more with my books than I ever did writing articles, because I can keep getting paid. I only got paid once for articles, though I do continued to get paid for lesson plans and materials. The education market is pretty saturated, and it's slow.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Paul StJohn Mackintosh said:


> If a few more of the assiduous self-publishing writers around here actually took up journalism, there would probably be a mite fewer disappointed and financially distressed ones bemoaning their fate. The rewards may not be great, but it sure beats beating yourself up over months to produce a book that sells two copies on Amazon. I can write an article in 30 minutes that - guaranteed - *will* make me as much money as that book would. I do it every day, at least once, and often three or four times. And if I was just a little bit more serious about my journalism, I could be making much more.
> 
> One catch, though: you have to actually have something to say that people want to read. And you have to write well. (Oops, is that one catch or two?) Either way, sorry, but no getting around that. Better work on it first.


I spent about five years in journalism in Wisconsin. Won a handful of awards for my time and trouble, there, too. Barely eked out a living, but it was fun.

Trouble is, it was all-consuming. I think I wrote an outline of a graphic novel during that entire five years.

Plus about 22 pages of script.

Nothing more.

Because small-town journalism as I lived it was very creatively satisfying, but very time-consuming. Especially around the weekly deadline, where I'd work for a minimum of 30 hours straight, then head home and collapse for... about 12 hours after that.

It wasn't healthy, at least not for me. I'm still recovering from the health consequences of those five years, which are now about seven years in my past.

If I'd kept it up, I'm convinced I'd be six feet under by now.

I'm far happier with my life these days, relying on side-work rendering editorial-related services to other authors about six hours a day, from home, and then working on my own stuff, also from home, for another six-hour shift each day.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

I'm a published author (Kid's books) and I can tell you that after all the effort I spent getting published, financially it just isn't worth it - unless you are very lucky.  Having said that, I love seeing my books on the shelves and getting feedback from the kids who enjoy them - I also love my publisher (Walker Books Australia) and the support they give me.  I do have a feeling of great achievement but that doesn't pay the bills!

Glenn Wood


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Katherine Roberts said:


> Though you might want to avoid huge books if you are planning worldwide domination, since translation costs for longer works can put off foreign publishers (e.g. my book "I am the Great Horse" is 150,000 words and has only so far been translated into Greek, whereas my shorter Seven Wonders books at around 60,000 words have been translated into 11 languages... several foreign publishers quoted the length as the problem with the longer book.)


It's not just cost, but also the fact that many languages are wordier than English and require a lot more words to say the same thing. For example, the same text in German is approx. 15 to 20% longer than in English. With an article or a short story, this isn't much of a problem, but with novels it quickly adds up. The solution is usually either cutting (happens a lot with romance novels, particularly those published in lines with strict pagecount limits) or chopping a very long book into two (happens to lots of fantasy novels). This is why George R.R. Martin's _Song of Ice and Fire_ is ten very big books in German as opposed to five (well, that way they'll last a little longer till Martin finished the next one) and Wheel of Time is 28 very big book instead of 14.

[/quote]
Creatively speaking, however, I think every story has its natural length - so I suppose it depends if you want to make money or art. 
[/quote]

I totally agree with that.


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